# 2 years of hard training to get yellow belt, my grandson gets belt in 6 weeks?



## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

*In 1973 I train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from one of Jack Hwang schools. **I was an athlete and train hard for over 2 years to get a yellow belt. I had to learn how to walk a form perfectly before I was taught blocks and punches. I stopped training in Martial Arts around 1985.

Move **forward** 30 years. My grandson is taking Taekwondo, he goes at lest 3 times a week and works hard, but giving him a yellow belt in 6 weeks is odd to me. The other thing that seem odd to me is he is learning advanced kicks before learning balance and perfecting the front and side kick. I have not expressed my **disappointment** in the school. This is the first physical active he has been excited about and he is serious about it. He works hard and is very **proud** of his yellow belt.
*
*Maybe child need to see that they are doing well by earning belts quickly. What happens when they get a black belt in 2 year ? Do they quit thinking they are a black belt? Do you start at the begin and teach balance and precision? I think when they turn 17 they should go to a *
*traditional **school if there are any. Start as a white belt and work their way up to black belt. It used to take 7 to 10 years to earn a black belt.*

*I was very sad to learn Jack Hwang die last year. When I knew him his abilities were amazing, better than Bruce Lee movies. I have not been to Jack Hwang school in **Oklahoma** is it still traditional?*


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## Headhunter (Nov 27, 2018)

What's up with the massive writing


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

Different schools have different ways of teaching.  Many schools nowadays use the method of teaching the students well enough, and over time correcting the mistakes.  At my school, by the time they get to be Black Belts they usually have a good foundational understanding of the art, and by the time they get to be 2nd or 3rd degree their techniques are pretty darn good.

3-5 years for black belt is common nowadays.  But getting your black belt doesn't mean what the public thinks it means.  The uninitiated think the black belt is the expert, and the black belt is not.  The black belt has learned enough to be a student.  It is like getting your high school diploma.  I'm a 3rd degree black belt and I'm not an expert yet (although I'd say I'm pretty close).


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## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> Different schools have different ways of teaching.  Many schools nowadays use the method of teaching the students well enough, and over time correcting the mistakes.  At my school, by the time they get to be Black Belts they usually have a good foundational understanding of the art, and by the time they get to be 2nd or 3rd degree their techniques are pretty darn good.
> 
> 3-5 years for black belt is common nowadays.  But getting your black belt doesn't mean what the public thinks it means.  The uninitiated think the black belt is the expert, and the black belt is not.  The black belt has learned enough to be a student.  It is like getting your high school diploma.  I'm a 3rd degree black belt and I'm not an expert yet (although I'd say I'm pretty close).



I agree its been hard with our young students but weve functioned the same way - well enough and then correct over time 
Though ive implemented a new curriculum for incoming young adult students that will take closer to an average of 8 years for black belt to help correct the misunderstanding of black belt status


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> I agree its been hard with our young students but weve functioned the same way - well enough and then correct over time
> Though ive implemented a new curriculum for incoming young adult students that will take closer to an average of 8 years for black belt to help correct the misunderstanding of black belt status



If you are in an organization that is typically faster, I almost feel it's a disservice to hold your students back, as it sets them back on potential promotions in the future.

If you're not affiliated then that doesn't matter as much.

But this isn't the teaching style I'd prefer to use.  I'd prefer to perfect the details and then move on.  I feel it's easier than correcting bad habits once they've become ingrained.  With that said, there are several students at my school that have a lot to work on, and it's not about getting them perfect - it's about constant improvement.


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## JR 137 (Nov 27, 2018)

Times have certainly changed. In many ways for the better. In some ways not.

There are pros and cons to your training vs your grandson’s. Every chief instructor has to do what he/she feels is right - for the students, for the school as a whole, and for the art as a whole.

I’m not a fan of black belt in 2 years for anyone (except of course someone with a lot of prior experience and coming from a very similar school), nor am I a fan of kids wearing black belts. But I don’t get to make the rules.

One thing I’ve noticed about the short amount of time to black belt - their students at 2 years in don’t look much different (skill wise, and especially sparring wise) than students who are 2 years in from a school who takes 5 years or longer to get to black belt. Great example is we had a guy from a TKD school join our school. He was a 2nd dan, and trained there for 3 years. Sparring with people in our school, he fit right in with the students we had with around 3 years of experience. He certainly didn’t fit in with our 2nd dans who were at it 8-10 years.

He didn’t like being a green belt after several months training with us, so he left. I guess the ability didn’t matter to him; it was all about the rank. Hopefully he found somewhere that made him happy. 

That guy was just an example. I’ve worked out with people from different schools and organizations. Somehow the time spent training shows their ability far more than the belt around their waist.

There’s no substitute for experience.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> What's up with the massive writing


I am sorry for the massive writing. I have not been in a school in 30 years and was trying to figure things out.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> *In 1973 I train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from one of Jack Hwang schools. **I was an athlete and train hard for over 2 years to get a yellow belt. I had to learn how to walk a form perfectly before I was taught blocks and punches. I stopped training in Martial Arts around 1985.
> 
> Move **forward** 30 years. My grandson is taking Taekwondo, he goes at lest 3 times a week and works hard, but giving him a yellow belt in 6 weeks is odd to me. The other thing that seem odd to me is he is learning advanced kicks before learning balance and perfecting the front and side kick. I have not expressed my **disappointment** in the school. This is the first physical active he has been excited about and he is serious about it. He works hard and is very **proud** of his yellow belt.
> *
> ...


well it still does take a decade at some schools,  which units self id possibly much to long and to far the other way,,
people don't have that long an attention span that they are going to donate 10 years to something, not in this age where they can't wait till sataday to go shopping, or even a minute to down load something,,  instant gratification is the norm,, , kids n particular experience time differently to adults td, two years to them is a decade or so to you, twoyears with out some payback is a big ask, to keep them involved and interested


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I am sorry for the massive writing. I have not been in a school in 30 years and was trying to figure things out.



The normal font and everything on this site works just fine.  If you don't edit your font, it will be normal.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> The normal font and everything on this site works just fine.  If you don't edit your font, it will be normal.


not perhaps if he writes in elsewhere and paists it on to the site, that will und up going strange


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> not perhaps if he writes in elsewhere and paists it on to the site, that will und up going strange



Then use the normal font where you typed it!  I do that in Word sometimes, and it still comes up normal if I don't format it weird.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> The normal font and everything on this site works just fine.  If you don't edit your font, it will be normal.


Thank you for the help, I though I was writing to much.


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Thank you for the help, I though I was writing to much.



If you think you're writing too much, read some of my posts!


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> Then use the normal font where you typed it!  I do that in Word sometimes, and it still comes up normal if I don't format it weird.


there isn't a" normal,  "  font in word,or rather all font are not abnormal and it's not the font that's the issue its the point size,  which could also be considered normal, just different that the one thipe site uses


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> there isn't a" normal,  "  font in word,or rather all font are not abnormal and it's not the font that's the issue its the point size,  which could also be considered normal, just different that the one thipe site uses



Actually there is a "Normal" style, which is by default Calibri in 11 point, and no bold/italicized/underlined.


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## jobo (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> Actually there is a "Normal" style, which is by default Calibri in 11 point, and no bold/italicized/underlined.


no there's Not, there is a default font, but there is no font called " normal" and therefore no normal font and the issue is he has changed the point size, which is also a normal thing to do, particularly by those who have poor eyesight or sit a fair way from their screen


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## WaterGal (Nov 27, 2018)

American schools seem to be increasingly moving towards the Korean model of a TKD 1st dan black belt meaning, basically, "you've got a handle on the basic stuff". In Korea, you usually get your black belt after 1-2 years, and then there's lots more training you do after that, to actually get good. In the US, it's still typically more like 2-5 years. Some people quit after that, but others will stick with it for a long time. (I think a good question to ask is whether the school has a dedicated black belt curriculum & classes, and whether many students continue after they earn their first black belt.)


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## Buka (Nov 27, 2018)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Bruce7. Hope you enjoy it here. We have some fun conversations from time to time.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

That is very interesting. The Koreans are driving the fast progression. I had thought it was the Americans trying to get more money for belts. I am glad I was wrong,  way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Bruce7. Hope you enjoy it here. We have some fun conversations from time to time.


Thank you for your welcome.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 27, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> American schools seem to be increasingly moving towards the Korean model of a TKD 1st dan black belt meaning, basically, "you've got a handle on the basic stuff". In Korea, you usually get your black belt after 1-2 years, and then there's lots more training you do after that, to actually get good. In the US, it's still typically more like 2-5 years. Some people quit after that, but others will stick with it for a long time. (I think a good question to ask is whether the school has a dedicated black belt curriculum & classes, and whether many students continue after they earn their first black belt.)


Thank you, that explains a lot.


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

When my Dad and I started Taekwondo, our goal was to get our black belt.  We didn't the first time around, so we wanted to see it through.  We saw a lot of people get their black belt and quit, and read about a lot of McDojos which basically guarantee a black belt.  So we came to the conclusion that the 1st degree black belt didn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.  That's not to say a black belt isn't an accomplishment, or that we should disrespect them.  Just that there was a clear jump from 1st to 2nd dan.

So my Dad and I both came to the conclusion that a 2nd degree black belt would mean a lot more.  It shows you didn't just get your black belt and quit, that you kept going.  And we made that our goal.  So while we had the black belt and all the oohs and ahhs that go with that, we also had our next goal to strive towards.


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## Buka (Nov 27, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> That is very interesting. The Koreans are driving the fast progression. I had thought it was the Americans trying to get more money for belts. I am glad I was wrong,  way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?



The Korean invasion started in the early seventies. Hasn't slowed down any since. The fast progression?
$$$$.


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## dvcochran (Nov 27, 2018)

skribs said:


> The normal font and everything on this site works just fine.  If you don't edit your font, it will be normal.


@Bruce7 said he has a virus. Maybe he is was flying high on a fever!


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## skribs (Nov 27, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> @Bruce7 said he has a virus. Maybe he is was flying high on a fever!



He said he was new.  I was just trying to be helpful!


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## Tames D (Nov 27, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> *In 1973 I train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from one of Jack Hwang schools. **I was an athlete and train hard for over 2 years to get a yellow belt. *



Damn belt factories...


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 28, 2018)

The focus should be on what the student is learning and how they are performing as opposed to the color of the belt.


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## mrt2 (Nov 28, 2018)

skribs said:


> When my Dad and I started Taekwondo, our goal was to get our black belt.  We didn't the first time around, so we wanted to see it through.  We saw a lot of people get their black belt and quit, and read about a lot of McDojos which basically guarantee a black belt.  So we came to the conclusion that the 1st degree black belt didn't really mean much in the grand scheme of things.  That's not to say a black belt isn't an accomplishment, or that we should disrespect them.  Just that there was a clear jump from 1st to 2nd dan.
> 
> *So my Dad and I both came to the conclusion that a 2nd degree black belt would mean a lot mor*e.  It shows you didn't just get your black belt and quit, that you kept going.  And we made that our goal.  So while we had the black belt and all the oohs and ahhs that go with that, we also had our next goal to strive towards.


I trained in Tang Soo Do from 1979 to 1982.  The minimum time to get to black belt was 3 years, though as I found out, it was not an automatic thing and in practice, many people too 4 to 5 years to get to black belt, or like me, dropped out before getting to that point.  In those days, and in TSD, black belts were relatively rare.  Often, as a high red or Cho Dan Bo, I was the highest ranking student in the class.  

These days and in my current school, the black belt is not as unusual a site as it was back in the day.  There are classes where there are more total black belts than all other colored belts combined.  On the other hand, 2nd Dans are not as common a site.  The skill level to get from 1st to 2nd Dan is large, maybe as large as from white belt to 1st Dan.  And it takes a minimum 4, and as many as 5 years to get to 2nd Dan.  Thus, my view that in my current school, 2nd Dan is basically about what 1st Dan was at my former school back in the day.


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## skribs (Nov 28, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> These days and in my current school, the black belt is not as unusual a site as it was back in the day. There are classes where there are more total black belts than all other colored belts combined. On the other hand, 2nd Dans are not as common a site. The skill level to get from 1st to 2nd Dan is large, maybe as large as from white belt to 1st Dan. And it takes a minimum 4, and as many as 5 years to get to 2nd Dan. Thus, my view that in my current school, 2nd Dan is basically about what 1st Dan was at my former school back in the day.



Well, that happens at my school, but mainly because we have classes specifically for black belts!


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## skribs (Nov 28, 2018)

One thing that does happen at my school is there is a curve in the progression time.


White -> Yellow, Yellow -> Purple, Purple -> Orange, and Orange -> Green (the first 4 tests) are all one test each.  And for the kids, the white -> yellow test is incredibly simple.  They just need to know 5 blocks, 3 punches, 4 kicks...and that's about it.  The test for yellow is less about the technique, and more about "can you stand still when you're supposed to, follow the directions when they're given, and have a respectful attitude."  
Once you get to Green and Blue belts, there's stripes.  So you go Green -> Green 1 -> Blue.  Once you're there, you go Blue -> Blue 1 -> Blue 2 -> Red.  So it takes 2 tests to get your Blue belt and 3 to get your Red belt.  So you could potentially go up a color every 2 months in the beginner, it's 4 months minimum for blue and 6 months minimum for Red.
Once you're a Red belt, in addition to having 2 stripes, there's a 4 month minimum on each test.  That forces you to slow down a bit and sharpen your technique before black belt.  We only do black belts twice a year (instead of every 2 months), so you have to wait anywhere from 4-8 months minimum to get your black belt, depending on when you got your Red 2.  So it's 12-16 months minimum to go from Red to Black.
After black belt, we have ranks between the degrees, but the time limit is imposed on the degrees.  1 year to go from 1st to 2nd, 2 years to go from 2nd to 3rd.  These are minimums, of course.  
So it may take 2 months to get Yellow and another 2 months to get purple.  It's a minimum of 2.5 years to get Black Belt, and that's if you tested every time and were at the right time of year to do Black Belt testing.  In practice, most people add an extra 2-4 months for each test.  Just 2 months on each test stretches it from 2.5 to 4.5 years right there.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2018)

Bottom line:
Rank doesn't really have any meaning except within the school or system that issued it.
I think there's generally too much focus on rank. I've also noticed that the higher your own rank, the less likely you are to care about rank.


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## andyjeffries (Nov 29, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> That is very interesting. The Koreans are driving the fast progression. I had thought it was the Americans trying to get more money for belts. I am glad I was wrong,  way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?



I don't think they have changed to this fast progression, it's been that way for YEARS. However, remember this is nothing new for martial arts. From documented history - Shiro Saigo moved to Tokyo in 1882 and in August he joined Jigoro Kano's dojo. In 1883 he became the first black belt (along with another). So that's a max of 16 months. Also Gichin Funakoshi promoted students to 1st Dan within 18 months (and they are documented as educated working professionals, so certainly weren't doing 8 hours per day).

Remember, the asian mindset in most martial arts is generally that 1st Dan is a beginner rank, it's expected that you aren't really very good until 4th Dan. So they certainly don't think much of a 1st belt test. It's a minor speed bump, not a big deal. Don't get me wrong, your grandson is justified in feeling proud of his achievement, but it certainly shouldn't have ever taken 2 years, unless you were training once per month! IMHO.


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## mrt2 (Nov 29, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> *In 1973 I train in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo from one of Jack Hwang schools. **I was an athlete and train hard for over 2 years to get a yellow belt. I had to learn how to walk a form perfectly before I was taught blocks and punches. I stopped training in Martial Arts around 1985.
> *


I trained in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from 1979 to 1982.  The intervals between belt promotions were 3 months, starting with white belt.  I do remember spending at least a month working on stances and basic blocks before throwing my first punch, then learning punches and my first form in the second month.  Probably didn't throw a kick until my third month.

Never the less, I still tested for green belt at 6 months, and red belt at 15 months.  I was a red belt for another year, and made Cho Dan Bo, at somewhere between 24 and 26 months.

So even back in the day, from a traditional Korean instructor as part of the same organization you were part of, people weren't kept at low belts for years.  I suspect the reason is, you train for years for one or two belt promotions, a lot of people would get bored and quit.  You have to get into the curriculum at some point, hopefully sometime within the first year of training.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 29, 2018)

Thinking back on our school it was probably not the norm. Belt test were given when Jack Hwang was in town and that was not often. One of our yellow belts was never around when belt test were given. I think he had 5 years of experience not sure and was still a yellow belt. He told me he went to a tournament and they told him he need to take a belt test to compete in the tournament. They were nice enough to test him so he could compete. He still wore his yellow belt in class.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 29, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I trained in Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan from 1979 to 1982.  The intervals between belt promotions were 3 months, starting with white belt.  I do remember spending at least a month working on stances and basic blocks before throwing my first punch, then learning punches and my first form in the second month.  Probably didn't throw a kick until my third month.
> 
> Never the less, I still tested for green belt at 6 months, and red belt at 15 months.  I was a red belt for another year, and made Cho Dan Bo, at somewhere between 24 and 26 months.
> 
> So even back in the day, from a traditional Korean instructor as part of the same organization you were part of, people weren't kept at low belts for years.  I suspect the reason is, you train for years for one or two belt promotions, a lot of people would get bored and quit.  You have to get into the curriculum at some point, hopefully sometime within the first year of training.


Thank you for your post, I wish to start training again. Do you know of any Moo Duk Kwan schools in Houston.


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## Balrog (Nov 29, 2018)

skribs said:


> Different schools have different ways of teaching.  Many schools nowadays use the method of teaching the students well enough, and over time correcting the mistakes.  At my school, by the time they get to be Black Belts they usually have a good foundational understanding of the art, and by the time they get to be 2nd or 3rd degree their techniques are pretty darn good.
> 
> 3-5 years for black belt is common nowadays.  But getting your black belt doesn't mean what the public thinks it means.  The uninitiated think the black belt is the expert, and the black belt is not.  The black belt has learned enough to be a student. * It is like getting your high school diploma.*  I'm a 3rd degree black belt and I'm not an expert yet (although I'd say I'm pretty close).


That is the exact analogy I use.  Just like 1st-12th grade is supposed to get you ready to go to college and do some serious learning, White Belt - 1st Degree Black Belt is all about learning the basics of Taekwondo.  At 1st Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo.  

Heck, I'm a 6th Degree Black Belt and have the title of Master Instructor.  I'm considered an expert, but I don't feel like one.  I'm still a student and always will be.  There's always something new to learn or perfect.


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## skribs (Nov 29, 2018)

Balrog said:


> That is the exact analogy I use.  Just like 1st-12th grade is supposed to get you ready to go to college and do some serious learning, White Belt - 1st Degree Black Belt is all about learning the basics of Taekwondo.  At 1st Degree is where you really start to learn the art of Taekwondo.
> 
> Heck, I'm a 6th Degree Black Belt and have the title of Master Instructor.  I'm considered an expert, but I don't feel like one.  I'm still a student and always will be.  There's always something new to learn or perfect.



At my school, I get the feeling the White - Yellow belt kids classes are even to learn how to learn how to learn Taekwondo.  There really isn't much at all in there, but some kids languish for 6-8 months at white belt until they can learn the basics of "stand still" and "follow directions".


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## Bruce7 (Nov 30, 2018)

I wanted to start training again. At first I wanted to find a school like my first school back in 1973. I was frustrated In that schools don't teach like that anymore. So I reevaluated  what I wanted and needed. My grandsons school forms are not like ones I know, but maybe that's a good thing. My forms would be boring and too complicated to kids. My body has not forgotten the right way to punch,kick, move etc. so if they are not as precise in teaching as I would like it would not matter. *What I real want is to help my grandson without interfering in his excitement about his school*. So if l take the adult class. I can learn their forms. My granddaughter was showing me her form. I was very confessed until my grandson did the form. My granddaughter was doing a crescent kick so badly I though it was a bad front snap kick. The 12 years I train I wore a white belt most of the  time. I don't know It might be fun to be a black belt in 2 years. I can increase my speed and skill , but I will never have the speed or skill I had in my 20's. So getting a black belt might be a good goal. I may start class now or wait till January, I have not decide yet. Regardless I have a large bedroom with a large mirror, so I can start practicing kicks, punches etc. today.
I am feeling better now so I will probably not have time to post as much.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 30, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I wanted to start training again. At first I wanted to find a school like my first school back in 1973. I was frustrated In that schools don't teach like that anymore. So I reevaluated  what I wanted and needed. My grandsons school forms are not like ones I know, but maybe that's a good thing. My forms would be boring and too complicated to kids. My body has not forgotten the right way to punch,kick, move etc. so if they are not as precise in teaching as I would like it would not matter. *What I real want is to help my grandson without interfering in his excitement about his school*. So if l take the adult class. I can learn their forms. My granddaughter was showing me her form. I was very confessed until my grandson did the form. My granddaughter was doing a crescent kick so badly I though it was a bad front snap kick. The 12 years I train I wore a white belt most of the  time. I don't know It might be fun to be a black belt in 2 years. I can increase my speed and skill , but I will never have the speed or skill I had in my 20's. So getting a black belt might be a good goal. I may start class now or wait till January, I have not decide yet. Regardless I have a large bedroom with a large mirror, so I can start practicing kicks, punches etc. today.
> I am feeling better now so I will probably not have time to post as much.


I was rereading through this thread, and actually going to suggest that. Beyond being able to help them with their technique, kids love it when 'grown ups' they like train their style, it gives them something to excitedly rant and show off about. The adults tend to roll their eyes, but I'm fairly certain they secretly love it as well. And it provides both a bit more motivation.


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## dvcochran (Nov 30, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I wanted to start training again. At first I wanted to find a school like my first school back in 1973. I was frustrated In that schools don't teach like that anymore. So I reevaluated  what I wanted and needed. My grandsons school forms are not like ones I know, but maybe that's a good thing. My forms would be boring and too complicated to kids. My body has not forgotten the right way to punch,kick, move etc. so if they are not as precise in teaching as I would like it would not matter. *What I real want is to help my grandson without interfering in his excitement about his school*. So if l take the adult class. I can learn their forms. My granddaughter was showing me her form. I was very confessed until my grandson did the form. My granddaughter was doing a crescent kick so badly I though it was a bad front snap kick. The 12 years I train I wore a white belt most of the  time. I don't know It might be fun to be a black belt in 2 years. I can increase my speed and skill , but I will never have the speed or skill I had in my 20's. So getting a black belt might be a good goal. I may start class now or wait till January, I have not decide yet. Regardless I have a large bedroom with a large mirror, so I can start practicing kicks, punches etc. today.
> I am feeling better now so I will probably not have time to post as much.


To quote Nike, "just do it". Great attitude. Keep us in the loop.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 11, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> To quote Nike, "just do it". Great attitude. Keep us in the loop.


Last night was my first class. The instructors at Tiger Rock in Kingwood are really nice people. They gave me pants, a nice t shirt and free lessons when I told them about my grandchildren and I was thinking about taking lessons, how cool was that. The instructors taught good technique. I had been worried because a lot of the students skills did not match the belt. I am just going to have to get over the belt thing. Good thing I did not go to a hard core school like when I was teenager or I would probably be in a hospital now. After the punching and kicking exercises, my heart was racing and I was breathing real hard. Thank goodness we did stretching after the excises so I could catch my breath again. Then we practice on heavy bags. The students were friendly, it was a very enjoyable experience.


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## dvcochran (Dec 11, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Last night was my first class. The instructors at Tiger Rock in Kingwood are really nice people. They gave me pants, a nice t shirt and free lessons when I told them about my grandchildren and I was thinking about taking lessons, how cool was that. The instructors taught good technique. I had been worried because a lot of the students skills did not match the belt. I am just going to have to get over the belt thing. Good thing I did not go to a hard core school like when I was teenager or I would probably be in a hospital now. After the punching and kicking exercises, my heart was racing and I was breathing real hard. Thank goodness we did stretching after the excises so I could catch my breath again. Then we practice on heavy bags. The students were friendly, it was a very enjoyable experience.


Sounds like a great experience. I look forward to hearing about others in the future.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 14, 2018)

I have had 4 lessons. I am very pleased with the head instructors. I enjoy hitting the bags, but I get more out of class when we do techniques in the air or on a person. I thought Tuesday night was going to be easy since his wife was teaching the class, *wrong *my stomach is still hurting from all the stomach exercises. My biggest problem is flexibility, I can not kick any higher than the chest. I know I have to be patience, trying to go higher to soon will cause an injury.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 16, 2018)

After a week of lessons my stomach muscles finally quit hurting.
My favorite class was Friday morning, there was only four of us.
Two 17 year old black belts that I saw in every class , that had good technique, very good power, and speed.
One 30 something green belt who must have mist a lot of belt test, he was not bad.
We did combination most of the class. Black belts did the combinations perfectly, me not so much, I got mixed up a lot.
I liked the combination, even though I did not do them well. It gave me something to work on at home.
I enjoyed the last technique best. We would evade kicks and down block, then punch lightly to back of head, kidney, and sweep back of knee. I switch legs, fainted, did anything I could to trip up the black belts, the kids were good. I also think that even though I was testing them,
I think they were taking it easy on me. They were really good kids. The kind every teacher wants.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 16, 2018)

Most people who got into martial arts in the 70's and 80's are probably in the mindset that martial arts is for fighting.  In other words, they trained so they can actually use what they are learning.  This is not the case today.  Most schools hand out belts for being able to do a form and knowing what a technique is named and can "demo" an application of that technique vs. actually use the technique.

There is a lot of stuff that I see people pass test with that I could have never gotten away with in Karate.  I was required to perform at a certain level before I could even qualify to take a test.  There was never a set time for when I would have to take a test.  If it takes 2 years to get there then so be it.  If I don't want it to take 2 years then I better train harder.
A fighter's / warrior's spirit was equally as important as the technique itself.

But these day so much as changed.  Most kids get their kids into marital arts for better discipline and not to actually learn how to use a martial arts.


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## dvcochran (Dec 16, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> After a week of lessons my stomach muscles finally quit hurting.
> My favorite class was Friday morning, there was only four of us.
> Two 17 year old black belts that I saw in every class , that had good technique, very good power, and speed.
> One 30 something green belt who must have mist a lot of belt test, he was not bad.
> ...


Sounds like you are in a great environment with some great people. Enjoy it and get all you can out of it. Something that is not easy to find these days.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> But these day so much as changed.  Most kids get their kids into marital arts for better discipline and not to actually learn how to use a martial arts.



Kids are getting kids into martial arts for discipline? That's some early age parenting


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## skribs (Dec 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Most people who got into martial arts in the 70's and 80's are probably in the mindset that martial arts is for fighting.  In other words, they trained so they can actually use what they are learning.  This is not the case today.  Most schools hand out belts for being able to do a form and knowing what a technique is named and can "demo" an application of that technique vs. actually use the technique.
> 
> There is a lot of stuff that I see people pass test with that I could have never gotten away with in Karate.  I was required to perform at a certain level before I could even qualify to take a test.  There was never a set time for when I would have to take a test.  If it takes 2 years to get there then so be it.  If I don't want it to take 2 years then I better train harder.
> A fighter's / warrior's spirit was equally as important as the technique itself.
> ...



I won't be able to find it, but there was a video I was watching in my search for the reason we do poomsae in Taekwondo.  One of the videos I found talked about how the Japanese kata went from having a lethal martial application to having defensive applications when the arts were expanded from military and self defense applications to be taught in schools as a way of training discipline.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Kids are getting kids into martial arts for discipline? That's some early age parenting


I've talked to parents who wanted some advice about martial arts, so being me, I started with the self-defense aspect.  She quickly cut me off and stated that she really didn't care if her son learned how to used it.  She just wanted him to have better discipline.

Martial arts is always being advertised as being honorable.  So many parents think that's what it takes for their kids to learn manners and how to be respectful.  In my opinion I think that's the wrong approach.  While lessons like that can be learned in martial arts.  You normally don't see that type of honor until you get to the people who actually have the power and capability to just smash people in the face with a kick or punch. When you see how gentle many of those type people can be then you can see the lesson.  Everything before that is just normal for raising a child "say yes sir, or yes,  respect elders, etc."  Things a child can learn outside of a martial arts school, all it takes is just spending time with a child, and not martial arts.

But such is the world today and a school has to make money to stay open.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 16, 2018)

skribs said:


> I won't be able to find it, but there was a video I was watching in my search for the reason we do poomsae in Taekwondo.  One of the videos I found talked about how the Japanese kata went from having a lethal martial application to having defensive applications when the arts were expanded from military and self defense applications to be taught in schools as a way of training discipline.


It doesn't surprise me. Did they say that it worked?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've talked to parents who wanted some advice about martial arts, so being me, I started with the self-defense aspect.  She quickly cut me off and stated that she really didn't care if her son learned how to used it.  She just wanted him to have better discipline.
> 
> Martial arts is always being advertised as being honorable.  So many parents think that's what it takes for their kids to learn manners and how to be respectful.  In my opinion I think that's the wrong approach.  While lessons like that can be learned in martial arts.  You normally don't see that type of honor until you get to the people who actually have the power and capability to just smash people in the face with a kick or punch. When you see how gentle many of those type people can be then you can see the lesson.  Everything before that is just normal for raising a child "say yes sir, or yes,  respect elders, etc."  Things a child can learn outside of a martial arts school, all it takes is just spending time with a child, and not martial arts.
> 
> But such is the world today and a school has to make money to stay open.


I was just making a small gibe at you saying " Most kids get their kids into marital arts" not " Most parents get their kids into marital arts". Threw me for a second when I read it.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 16, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I was just making a small gibe at you saying " Most kids get their kids into marital arts" not " Most parents get their kids into marital arts". Threw me for a second when I read it.


lol... totally missed that until now.  Brain reading stuff that's not there.  Getting old. lol.   Yeah KIDS get their KIDS into martial arts.  That too.  lol.    Unfortunately I don't think I have enough years on me to claim Old Man status and a pass on that error.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've talked to parents who wanted some advice about martial arts, so being me, I started with the self-defense aspect.  She quickly cut me off and stated that she really didn't care if her son learned how to used it.  She just wanted him to have better discipline.
> 
> Martial arts is always being advertised as being honorable.  So many parents think that's what it takes for their kids to learn manners and how to be respectful.  In my opinion I think that's the wrong approach.  While lessons like that can be learned in martial arts.  You normally don't see that type of honor until you get to the people who actually have the power and capability to just smash people in the face with a kick or punch. When you see how gentle many of those type people can be then you can see the lesson.  Everything before that is just normal for raising a child "say yes sir, or yes,  respect elders, etc."  Things a child can learn outside of a martial arts school, all it takes is just spending time with a child, and not martial arts.
> 
> But such is the world today and a school has to make money to stay open.



The composure you learn that lets you win fights. Is the composure that keeps you out of fights.


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## JR 137 (Dec 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've talked to parents who wanted some advice about martial arts, so being me, I started with the self-defense aspect.  She quickly cut me off and stated that she really didn't care if her son learned how to used it.  She just wanted him to have better discipline.
> 
> Martial arts is always being advertised as being honorable.  So many parents think that's what it takes for their kids to learn manners and how to be respectful.  In my opinion I think that's the wrong approach.  While lessons like that can be learned in martial arts.  You normally don't see that type of honor until you get to the people who actually have the power and capability to just smash people in the face with a kick or punch. When you see how gentle many of those type people can be then you can see the lesson.  Everything before that is just normal for raising a child "say yes sir, or yes,  respect elders, etc."  Things a child can learn outside of a martial arts school, all it takes is just spending time with a child, and not martial arts.
> 
> But such is the world today and a school has to make money to stay open.


The problem is parents either don’t know how to discipline their kids or don’t have the will to be consistent with it and cave.

They think disciplining is just hitting, and they’re against hitting their kids, so they’ve got nothing. I’ve never hit my kids, but I sure as hell discipline them whenever appropriate. How? By taking away things they like. By not letting them do things they like. Not doing your homework? No video games. Being disrespectful in school? No sports. Stuff like that. Such an easy concept, yet today’s parents aren’t doing it or following through and being consistent.

Great example...
I had an 8th grader (academic school teacher) who wasn’t doing any homework, and was doing nothing more than taking up space in my class. Same for every other class. We had a conference with the mother (single parent), where she broke down crying and said she doesn’t know what to do anymore. One of my colleagues suggested taking away his Xbox. The parent’s reaction was like we just told her to not feed her kid. There were zero consequences for the kid’s behavior. If there are zero consequences, why is a kid going to listen? If the posted speed limit is 65 and you know for a fact that there’s no police enforcing anything at all, are you really going to obey that law?

Parenting is easy in principle. It’s quite hard in practice. Why are parents sending their kids to MA class for self-discipline? Because they can’t do it themselves, for the most part. It’s sickening. It’s that same mentality of when a kid is disruptive or disrespectful in my class, it’s my fault because I’m not doing my job right. I’m not making it fun enough. I’m not using proper classroom management techniques. I’m failing to motivate the student. It’s all bull$hit. I’m not going to accomplish much in 40 minutes. A MA teacher isn’t going to accomplish much more in 60 minutes. It all comes from the home. Plain and simple, yet no one wants to be accountable for their kids’ actions.

Rant over. For now anyway.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The problem is parents either don’t know how to discipline their kids or don’t have the will to be consistent with it and cave.
> 
> They think disciplining is just hitting, and they’re against hitting their kids, so they’ve got nothing. I’ve never hit my kids, but I sure as hell discipline them whenever appropriate. How? By taking away things they like. By not letting them do things they like. Not doing your homework? No video games. Being disrespectful in school? No sports. Stuff like that. Such an easy concept, yet today’s parents aren’t doing it or following through and being consistent.
> 
> ...


I learned discipline as a  by product of sports.  Training hard takes a lot of discipline, listening to the coach, and not talking back to those who are trying to help you. But I never played sports for discipline.  You'll hear similar stories about other sports, like football and basketball, but no one signs their child up for those sports for the sole purpose of teaching the child discipline.   But for some reason Martial Arts is the exception.  

I think what many parents or looking for are "Etiquette Schools"  lol


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## dvcochran (Dec 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The problem is parents either don’t know how to discipline their kids or don’t have the will to be consistent with it and cave.
> 
> They think disciplining is just hitting, and they’re against hitting their kids, so they’ve got nothing. I’ve never hit my kids, but I sure as hell discipline them whenever appropriate. How? By taking away things they like. By not letting them do things they like. Not doing your homework? No video games. Being disrespectful in school? No sports. Stuff like that. Such an easy concept, yet today’s parents aren’t doing it or following through and being consistent.
> 
> ...



Very, very well said.


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## JR 137 (Dec 16, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I learned discipline as a  by product of sports.  Training hard takes a lot of discipline, listening to the coach, and not talking back to those who are trying to help you. But I never played sports for discipline.  You'll hear similar stories about other sports, like football and basketball, but no one signs their child up for those sports for the sole purpose of teaching the child discipline.   But for some reason Martial Arts is the exception.
> 
> I think what many parents or looking for are "Etiquette Schools"  lol


I think sports are part discipline, part mental toughness. Wrestling taught me that mental toughness and never give up attitude far better than anything else out there. Not just on the mat, but off the mat too - making weight and missing weight because you weren’t disciplined enough is a powerful teacher. Wrestling taught me accountability like nothing else did - I was the one out there who won and lost. I couldn’t blame a wide receiver for dropping the game-winning TD pass. It was ME and only ME. I won and I lost. No one’s fault but mine. A soccer player can play in and win a championship game without ever touching the ball, and be happier than a pig in $hit about it. I’ve seen it. Not in wrestling 

But the kid has to love the game for those lessons to become meaningful. And the parents have to make the kid honor their commitment too.

Sports teach discipline pretty easily without explicitly trying - don’t do what you’re supposed to do, and you don’t play. That’s assuming of course that the coach is doing things the right way and has control over the team.

Sports claim life lessons being taught. And they’re right, provided the kid is paying attention. MA teacher’s started claiming discipline. Sure, if the kid wants to learn it. MA can teach the same life lessons sports do, it’s just a matter of marketing. Then again, kids don’t get “benched” in MA. Exception being MA competitions if they’re doing that.

Parents are supposed to enforce that sports discipline too - do what you’re supposed to do, and you’ll play. Don’t and you won’t. My parents yanked my brother from playing for a week once. Once. The three of us learned real quick.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 16, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The problem is parents either don’t know how to discipline their kids or don’t have the will to be consistent with it and cave.
> 
> They think disciplining is just hitting, and they’re against hitting their kids, so they’ve got nothing. I’ve never hit my kids, but I sure as hell discipline them whenever appropriate. How? By taking away things they like. By not letting them do things they like. Not doing your homework? No video games. Being disrespectful in school? No sports. Stuff like that. Such an easy concept, yet today’s parents aren’t doing it or following through and being consistent.
> 
> ...



I will not Rant, as a former teacher I could write pages up on pages on this subject all I am going to say is I agree 100%.


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## skribs (Dec 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The composure you learn that lets you win fights. Is the composure that keeps you out of fights.



This is one sentence that explains this concept better than any paragraph or essay on the subject I've read.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 20, 2018)

Last night I was listening to students talk about an up coming tournament.
You have got to be kidding me! 
Snap punches and back fist to the head no points.
You get more than 1 points for fancy kicks to the head.

No wonder no one practices snap punches and back fist, something I practiced for hours and hours.
No wonder people practice fancy kicks, I would never use in a real fight.

To the teachers credit I have heard them say fancy kicks are not good for a real fight.
Teachers teach hand combinations, but when students spar hand technique are not used or if used not well.
Students are more interest in tournaments than winning fights.

I hope as young people take over, the importance of hand techniques will not be lost.


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## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Last night I was listening to students talk about an up coming tournament.
> You have got to be kidding me!
> Snap punches and back fist to the head no points.
> You get more than 1 points for fancy kicks to the head.
> ...


What if you had worked on "fancy" kicks as much as you have worked on punches all those years? Would your opinion be different? Seriously though, I agree there are several kicks I personally would not use in a SD situation. Partly because I am older and cannot call on the as quickly and effectively as I could when I was younger. Everybody gains comfort from how they train. Kicking styles are outside fighters so that is where they are comfortable. Wrestlers want to be on the ground. So it has a lot to do with a persons style conditioning.


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## dvcochran (Dec 20, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> The problem is parents either don’t know how to discipline their kids or don’t have the will to be consistent with it and cave.
> 
> They think disciplining is just hitting, and they’re against hitting their kids, so they’ve got nothing. I’ve never hit my kids, but I sure as hell discipline them whenever appropriate. How? By taking away things they like. By not letting them do things they like. Not doing your homework? No video games. Being disrespectful in school? No sports. Stuff like that. Such an easy concept, yet today’s parents aren’t doing it or following through and being consistent.
> 
> ...



com·pas·sion·ate
/kəmˈpaSHənət/
_adjective_
adjective: *compassionate*

feeling or showing sympathy and concern for others.
Somewhere the meaning has gotten lost. Sometimes the best was to be compassionate is showing a person where they are messing up and teaching them that there are consequences for their actions. I feel we are at least two generation deep into a society where the a lot of parents never learned this. Being hard does not mean no love, quite the opposite. Good rant.


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## skribs (Dec 20, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Last night I was listening to students talk about an up coming tournament.
> You have got to be kidding me!
> Snap punches and back fist to the head no points.
> You get more than 1 points for fancy kicks to the head.
> ...



I may have lost it, but what organization are you part of?

In WT rules, you can't even punch to the head.  So a punch to the head is -1 point.  

One thing to keep in mind is that this is a game, not fighting training.  Just like basketball or rugby.  I agree it does dilute the fighting aspect of the art...but the fancy kicks are fun to do.


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## skribs (Dec 20, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> What if you had worked on "fancy" kicks as much as you have worked on punches all those years? Would your opinion be different? Seriously though, I agree there are several kicks I personally would not use in a SD situation. Partly because I am older and cannot call on the as quickly and effectively as I could when I was younger. Everybody gains comfort from how they train. Kicking styles are outside fighters so that is where they are comfortable. Wrestlers want to be on the ground. So it has a lot to do with a persons style conditioning.



I've worked on those kicks for years, and I wouldn't use them in self defense.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 20, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> What if you had worked on "fancy" kicks as much as you have worked on punches all those years? Would your opinion be different? Seriously though, I agree there are several kicks I personally would not use in a SD situation. Partly because I am older and cannot call on the as quickly and effectively as I could when I was younger. Everybody gains comfort from how they train. Kicking styles are outside fighters so that is where they are comfortable. Wrestlers want to be on the ground. So it has a lot to do with a persons style conditioning.



I guess your right MA is all about fun. Most people will never get into a fight, so doing fun stuff makes more sense.
It is much more fun doing fancy kicks,  than standing in a horse stance doing a 1000 punches in front of a mirror.
I need to adjust my thinking. If I had been part of the change, I probably would not even notice. I need to lighten up.

I think more people stay with MA now because it is fun. People drop out of class a lot more back in the 70's.
The TV show Kung Fu and Bruce Lee movies were popular so a lot of people want to learn MA, but classes were boring
and most people did not last to the end of the month. I stayed because my instructors abilities were pretty amazing, so I figure If I stayed with it my abilities would be assume someday. So hours of punching and kicking in front of a mirror I figured was the price.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 20, 2018)

skribs said:


> I may have lost it, but what organization are you part of?
> 
> In WT rules, you can't even punch to the head.  So a punch to the head is -1 point.
> 
> One thing to keep in mind is that this is a game, not fighting training.  Just like basketball or rugby.  I agree it does dilute the fighting aspect of the art...but the fancy kicks are fun to do.



I am a dinosaur, tournaments are very different now. 
Back then most people did not know what Taekwondo was, so the tournaments were called Karate Tournaments. 
Their were no pads and you could only score one point per round.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 20, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I guess your right MA is all about fun. Most people will never get into a fight, so doing fun stuff makes more sense.
> It is much more fun doing fancy kicks,  than standing in a horse stance doing a 1000 punches in front of a mirror.
> I need to adjust my thinking. If I had been part of the change, I probably would not even notice. I need to lighten up.
> 
> ...


For what it's worth, I agree with you. There's a higher attrition rate your way, not good for a business, but I would much rather do 1000 punches in front of a mirror, or spend an hour throwing a roundhouse kick, then figuring out how to throw a 720 jumping tornado kick. The people I train with are mostly the same way.


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## MetalBoar (Dec 21, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I guess your right MA is all about fun. Most people will never get into a fight, so doing fun stuff makes more sense.
> It is much more fun doing fancy kicks,  than standing in a horse stance doing a 1000 punches in front of a mirror.
> I need to adjust my thinking. If I had been part of the change, I probably would not even notice. I need to lighten up.
> 
> ...


Yeah, I think things have changed and it's also a lot more expensive to run a school (at least here in Seattle) than it used to be. If you don't want to teach out of your garage and you want to keep the doors open you've got to make the classes appeal to more people than you used to. Back in the '90's I used to pay $90/month for my Hapkido school - that got me as many classes as I could handle Monday/Wednesday/Friday. My instructor offered 4 90 minute classes each of those days (3/day later on because there were only 2 of use coming to the morning class and the other guy's work schedule changed) and I would frequently make it to 2 of them. He didn't offer kids classes and the training could be brutally hard. New people didn't tend to stick around so the school stayed about the same size the 5 years I was training there.

I would guess he was grossing about $2000/month from the school back then, maybe a little less. Back when I started I'd guess his monthly expenses were about $1000/month in total. So even then he wasn't making much money from the school and it was really just a labor of love, but he brought in a little until things started to get more expensive. Now, I know from personal experience that the space he used to rent would have to cost a minimum of $3500/month just for rent (not counting utilities, taxes, advertising, insurance or any of the other stuff) and it might be a _lot_ more than that. I don't see a lot of people who want to pay more than maybe $120/month for MA training so unless he had a lot more students he'd be losing >$500/month even without paying himself or anyone else anything. I hear he has re-opened his school at this point in another town that's cheaper, and he's also added in kids classes. I don't know if the adult training has been watered down to keep more students or not, but part of the reason I haven't gone to check it out is that I'd be a little heartbroken if it has and it's too far for me to actually train there anyway so why risk being disappointed?

The other side of it is that MMA gyms and related schools (pure BJJ, Muay Thai, etc.) seem to have taken over essentially the entire commercial space for people who really want to get in there and fight. We can all debate how well they work for pure self defense or meet any particular individuals desire for a "traditional" martial arts experience, but I don't think many people will argue that they're a great choice if you want to get in some real, legitimate martial competition without much fluff. I think most people who want or are comfortable with some hard training and hard or at least hard-ish contact sparring are going to those gyms now. Or they're training with small groups in garages or only semi-commercial, almost club like schools.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I guess your right MA is all about fun. Most people will never get into a fight, so doing fun stuff makes more sense.
> It is much more fun doing fancy kicks,  than standing in a horse stance doing a 1000 punches in front of a mirror.
> I need to adjust my thinking. If I had been part of the change, I probably would not even notice. I need to lighten up.
> 
> ...


Don’t forget to add it was painful too. Hard sparring can be pretty painful and no fun. Doing 100 consecutive kicks against a pad or bag doesn’t feel great to most people. Exchanging kicks to the thighs with a partner to condition them isn’t very appealing to the masses. 

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the majority of the masses know why that stuff’s important and think they’d like to do it, but getting from point A to point B is too painful, takes too long, and flat out isn’t worth it when they actually have to do it.


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## WaterGal (Dec 24, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I guess your right MA is all about fun. Most people will never get into a fight, so doing fun stuff makes more sense.
> It is much more fun doing fancy kicks,  than standing in a horse stance doing a 1000 punches in front of a mirror.
> I need to adjust my thinking. If I had been part of the change, I probably would not even notice. I need to lighten up.
> 
> ...



I think there are pluses and minuses to the kind of old-school training you mention. For the really dedicated people who stick with it, they'll get a lot out of it. But like you say, most people in schools like that would quit after 1 month - so those less-serious students (let's call them hobbyists) will get basically *nothing* out of training in martial arts. 

A school that can make class fun, approachable, and relatively safe can have a much higher retention rate among those hobbyists, so they actually learn something and get something out of their training. Maybe the training is less intense/rigorous in any particular class, but you're able to reach a much broader crowd of people, and more people end up learning the martial art and benefitting from it. I think that's a good thing, overall.

Of course, a school can also go too far, and lose the actual martial art in favor of basically just doing a fun light martial arts-themed workout class. (Not that there's anything wrong with workout classes, either, but that's different from actual martial arts training.)


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## mrt2 (Dec 24, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> *The other side of it is that MMA gyms and related schools (pure BJJ, Muay Thai, etc.) seem to have taken over essentially the entire commercial space for people who really want to get in there and fight*. We can all debate how well they work for pure self defense or meet any particular individuals desire for a "traditional" martial arts experience, but I don't think many people will argue that they're a great choice if you want to get in some real, legitimate martial competition without much fluff. I think most people who want or are comfortable with some hard training and hard or at least hard-ish contact sparring are going to those gyms now. Or they're training with small groups in garages or only semi-commercial, almost club like schools.


I really think this is true.  When I first started back with TKD training, I was wondering what happened to all the good fighters?  And by good fighters, I mean people who are a little aggressive, maybe come to their training with a bit of an attitude.  But who back it up in the gym.  For sure, there are a few, but I think for those who want to mix it up right away, MMA, BJJ, or Muy Thai are more appealing than doing 6 months learning front stance, horse stance, basics and forms before throwing a punch or kick against live competition, and even then, only spar maybe 10 minutes out of a 90 minute class.  

But frankly, it suits me just fine now, as I don't need to go to work with black eyes and broken noses.


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## dvcochran (Dec 24, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> I think there are pluses and minuses to the kind of old-school training you mention. For the really dedicated people who stick with it, they'll get a lot out of it. But like you say, most people in schools like that would quit after 1 month - so those less-serious students (let's call them hobbyists) will get basically *nothing* out of training in martial arts.
> 
> A school that can make class fun, approachable, and relatively safe can have a much higher retention rate among those hobbyists, so they actually learn something and get something out of their training. Maybe the training is less intense/rigorous in any particular class, but you're able to reach a much broader crowd of people, and more people end up learning the martial art and benefitting from it. I think that's a good thing, overall.
> 
> Of course, a school can also go too far, and lose the actual martial art in favor of basically just doing a fun light martial arts-themed workout class. (Not that there's anything wrong with workout classes, either, but that's different from actual martial arts training.)


I think it is paramount for instructors to be creative and develop workouts that parallel the "old school" workouts in new ways. Of course you had to have gone through some of the old school to appreciate the workouts.


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## MetalBoar (Dec 24, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I think it is paramount for instructors to be creative and develop workouts that parallel the "old school" workouts in new ways. Of course you had to have gone through some of the old school to appreciate the workouts.


Very well said, I was trying to figure out how to express this myself!


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## punisher73 (Dec 26, 2018)

Back in the day (60's and 70's and even early 80's) schools used to pride themselves on the fighters that they could produce.  Many instructors would sandbag their students belt level to do better in tournaments.  Think about it, in general, a black belt will be earned in 3-5 years in most good schools.  It took you 6 years to get yellow, now the teacher can boast that his yellow belt students beat other schools black belt students.  Then there became a shift and instructors started to worry about the degrees on their blackbelt to draw in more students and then, how many black belts that they had under them.

Then, most instructors came to realize that if they wanted to do MA for a living, there was not a large draw from suburban families that had expendable income on "karate lessons" when they would leave with split lips and black eyes.  Training was toned down to draw that in and then kids classes became popular and one of the biggest money makers.  BUT, kids in the US have very short attention spans, so alot more belt ranks and colors were added to pull in more testing fees and motivators to keep plugging away to reach the coveted "black belt".


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## Bruce7 (Dec 26, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> Back in the day (60's and 70's and even early 80's) schools used to pride themselves on the fighters that they could produce.  Many instructors would sandbag their students belt level to do better in tournaments.  Think about it, in general, a black belt will be earned in 3-5 years in most good schools.  It took you 6 years to get yellow, now the teacher can boast that his yellow belt students beat other schools black belt students.  Then there became a shift and instructors started to worry about the degrees on their blackbelt to draw in more students and then, how many black belts that they had under them.
> 
> Then, most instructors came to realize that if they wanted to do MA for a living, there was not a large draw from suburban families that had expendable income on "karate lessons" when they would leave with split lips and black eyes.  Training was toned down to draw that in and then kids classes became popular and one of the biggest money makers.  BUT, kids in the US have very short attention spans, so alot more belt ranks and colors were added to pull in more testing fees and motivators to keep plugging away to reach the coveted "black belt".


One of our yellow belts had to take belt test in order to enter a tournament, They knew him and they felt he had been a yellow belt to long.


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## dvcochran (Dec 26, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> Back in the day (60's and 70's and even early 80's) schools used to pride themselves on the fighters that they could produce.  Many instructors would sandbag their students belt level to do better in tournaments.  Think about it, in general, a black belt will be earned in 3-5 years in most good schools.  It took you 6 years to get yellow, now the teacher can boast that his yellow belt students beat other schools black belt students.  Then there became a shift and instructors started to worry about the degrees on their blackbelt to draw in more students and then, how many black belts that they had under them.
> 
> Then, most instructors came to realize that if they wanted to do MA for a living, there was not a large draw from suburban families that had expendable income on "karate lessons" when they would leave with split lips and black eyes.  Training was toned down to draw that in and then kids classes became popular and one of the biggest money makers.  BUT, kids in the US have very short attention spans, so alot more belt ranks and colors were added to pull in more testing fees and motivators to keep plugging away to reach the coveted "black belt".


Love your tagline. Words to live by.


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## Bruce7 (Jan 5, 2019)

I am still enjoying the school. One of the things I find hard to get use to is we never do more than ten reps of anything.
The other thing is we have not done a single snap punch or back fist, when they spar you are lucky to see a reverse punch.


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## WaterGal (Jan 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I am still enjoying the school. One of the things I find hard to get use to is we never do more than ten reps of anything.
> The other thing is we have not done a single snap punch or back fist, when they spar you are lucky to see a reverse punch.



I have to say we don't do back fist in our beginner class either. We cover that in the intermediate class, though we do exclusively KKW/WTF style sparring at color belt levels, which doesn't allow backfist at all. So they do it in their form and maybe in the air or pads a little, but they don't do it in sparring until black belt. (KKW/WTF sparring also doesn't reward a jabbing punch whatsoever - the only way to score with a punch is a strong reverse punch to the body, causing visible impact on your opponent. I don't know what sparring rules Tiger Rock uses, but these things do tend to inform the training.)


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## mrt2 (Jan 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I am still enjoying the school. One of the things I find hard to get use to is we never do more than ten reps of anything.
> The other thing is we have not done a single snap punch or back fist, when they spar you are lucky to see a reverse punch.


You can do as many reps before, or after class as you want, and I suppose, incorporate some of those old moves into your game.


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## Bruce7 (Jan 5, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> I have to say we don't do back fist in our beginner class either. We cover that in the intermediate class, though we do exclusively KKW/WTF style sparring at color belt levels, which doesn't allow backfist at all. So they do it in their form and maybe in the air or pads a little, but they don't do it in sparring until black belt. (KKW/WTF sparring also doesn't reward a jabbing punch whatsoever - the only way to score with a punch is a strong reverse punch to the body, causing visible impact on your opponent. I don't know what sparring rules Tiger Rock uses, but these things do tend to inform the training.)


They use the same rules as you described.


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## Bruce7 (Jan 5, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> You can do as many reps before, or after class as you want, and I suppose, incorporate some of those old moves into your game.



I do practice at home,  I think the work I do at home helps as much , maybe more than class.

The good thing about class is when you get tired your pride keeps you going.
l practicing alone it is harder to push yourself.

Another problem in my mind I keep thinking we would do better if we would not go so fast.
Example: Half the upper belts side kicks be could better,  I believe the reason for this is they move to quickly to hook kicks and other kicks.
Their is not enough muscle memory of the side kick, so you get something in between.


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## Martial D (Jan 5, 2019)

Belts are useful to measure progress I guess, but if they aren't directly tied to a measurable degree of competence (as is often the case),theyre no more than a way to keep your gi closed. 

That begs the question of course, WHAT is being measured. Are you a bb because you know more archaic asian dance numbers, and can break some particle boards...

Or because you can fight against another human being at a higher level than someone that is not?(at least, within the confines of your system)

And if your system leaves this aspect out entirely?

Might as well just go get a belt at sears or kmart.


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## Bruce7 (Jan 16, 2019)

Last night we work on hand technique. It was a little odd to me, still good practice. The snap punch was not the way I was taught, for one thing the teacher turn her hand like a reverse punch. Back fist and ridge hand were not taught, but hooks and upper cuts were. I did a ridge hand and she show the class how to position your hand and said we cold do it if we want. One the best black belt who is 18 look like Joe Lewis doing a ridge hand. None of the others tried.

I was not taught hooks and upper cuts in taekwondo, maybe that was a black belt thing.
I learn punches similar to hooks and uppercuts in long fist.
Since you can't use back fist and ridge hands in tournaments, they are not taught much?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Since you can't use back fist and ridge hands in tournaments, they are not taught much?



We use them in sparring. All the time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 16, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> We use them in sparring. All the time.


Does your dojo do WT competitions? A school that does may change its priorities in what they teach


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## Bruce7 (Jan 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Does your dojo do WT competitions? A school that does may change its priorities in what they teach


They talk about tournaments.  Most of the schools students are 6 to 15 years old.
My class is 16+, mostly young people with a few students in the 40+ age group.


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## Buka (Jan 16, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Last night we work on hand technique. It was a little odd to me, still good practice. The snap punch was not the way I was taught, for one thing the teacher turn her hand like a reverse punch. Back fist and ridge hand were not taught, but hooks and upper cuts were. I did a ridge hand and she show the class how to position your hand and said we cold do it if we want. One the best black belt who is 18 look like Joe Lewis doing a ridge hand. None of the others tried.
> 
> I was not taught hooks and upper cuts in taekwondo, maybe that was a black belt thing.
> I learn punches similar to hooks and uppercuts in long fist.
> Since you can't use back fist and ridge hands in tournaments, they are not taught much?



I competed in a lot of tournaments, well over a hundred, there were always backfists and ridge hands allowed. Wasn't TKD, though.

Man, I used to love backfists.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Does your dojo do WT competitions? A school that does may change its priorities in what they teach



We spar regularly. We're not particularly sport-oriented, but do attend the occasional tourney. Some of them follow WT rules, but they are more typically 'open' events with a much more sensible rule set.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 16, 2019)

Buka said:


> I competed in a lot of tournaments, well over a hundred, there were always backfists and ridge hands allowed. Wasn't TKD, though.
> 
> Man, I used to love backfists.


I actually learned the backfist very specifically as a point sparring technique. Well, I learned two backfists. One that takes advantage of spinning momentum to deal a bit of power. The other that extends reach/gets in a shot from an unexpected angle and more distance than someone would expect. I was taught to only use that second one if I decided to do point-sparring, since it would be too risky in an actual fight.


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## Buka (Jan 17, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I actually learned the backfist very specifically as a point sparring technique. Well, I learned two backfists. One that takes advantage of spinning momentum to deal a bit of power. The other that extends reach/gets in a shot from an unexpected angle and more distance than someone would expect. I was taught to only use that second one if I decided to do point-sparring, since it would be too risky in an actual fight.



I sometime used backfists like jabs, especially when I had already been using jabs - as the timing on a backfist is usually quicker. (Not supposed to do that if you're boxing so you need to disguise it). In Martial fighting I sometimes used backfists to interfere with an opponent's vision for that split second when the latter part of a combo is aimed somewhere lower. Works really well, especially if a kick follows two hand techniques, the first hand technique being the backfist.

I don't care for spinning backfists, unless I'm trying to cold cock-cock somebody, they're fairly easy to hit with with continued practice but they're very difficult to control.


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## Bruce7 (Feb 2, 2019)

Just got out of class, I am a little angry. The teachers who teach the classes are good, expect this 18 year old 4th degree black belt. She started in the school at age 6. She is a very poor teacher and her skill are not that great. She has an attitude that is not good either.
The times I have been in her class, I have treated her with respect even though I thought her teaching method were not good.

The other instructors let me help the white and yellow belts I train with. They also let me train with upper level belts when we do tactical one steps. She does not like me helping the white and yellow belts and never lets me train with upper level students.
I don't think she likes that I know so much. 
I guess I should not take it personal, she does not treat lower level black belts that well also.

Today she got in my face.
In stood of learning 18 forms like I did in earlier MA, Tiger Rock teaches one form that you expand as you progress in belts.
I know the entire form, but they don't want me to go past the yellow belt portion, I have no problem with that.
We just finished the yellow belt portion. and she was busy with higher belts, so I did the form backwards for practice. She came over got in my face and said I could not move after finishing the form. I smiled and did what she said,  It is very hard not thinking of ways to show her up the rest of class, it wrong to think like that, but she really irritated me.

I realize she been at the school for 12 years, but her skills are not that great.
The question is how many hours did she train in those 12 years?
If they are short on teachers, their is a humble 18 year old boy in class with exception skills, that would make a fine teacher.
I think before you make someone a 4th degree black belt, they should be able to teach. Master means teacher right.
Schools I train at she would be a red belt, at most a first degree black belt

I have train under very hard teaches, but they never got in my face or raised their voice. They might hit me ,but never got in my face.


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## mrt2 (Feb 2, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Just got out of class, I am a little angry. The teachers who teach the classes are good, expect this 18 year old 4th degree black belt. She started in the school at age 6. She is a very poor teacher and her skill are not that great. She has an attitude that is not good either.
> The times I have been in her class, I have treated her with respect even though I thought her teaching method were not good.
> 
> The other instructors let me help the white and yellow belts I train with. They also let me train with upper level belts when we do tactical one steps. She does not like me helping the white and yellow belts and never lets me train with upper level students.
> ...


If an 18 year old assistant instructor treated me that way, I would take it up with the head instructor.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 2, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Just got out of class, I am a little angry. The teachers who teach the classes are good, expect this 18 year old 4th degree black belt. She started in the school at age 6. She is a very poor teacher and her skill are not that great. She has an attitude that is not good either.
> The times I have been in her class, I have treated her with respect even though I thought her teaching method were not good.
> 
> The other instructors let me help the white and yellow belts I train with. They also let me train with upper level belts when we do tactical one steps. She does not like me helping the white and yellow belts and never lets me train with upper level students.
> ...


I'm seconding that I would talk to the head instructor about that. I'm not learning from someone that I can't respect.

It also amazes me that someone can be a 4th degree black belt at 18.


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## mrt2 (Feb 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I'm seconding that I would talk to the head instructor about that. I'm not learning from someone that I can't respect.
> 
> It also amazes me that someone can be a 4th degree black belt at 18.


That is a bit of a red flag.  At my school, we have plenty of younger 1st Dans, and a smaller number of teenage 2nd Dans, but no teenage 3rd or 4th Dans.  I believe the minimum age for 2nd Dan at my school is 15, and the minimum age for 3rd Dan is 18.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 2, 2019)

As is said often, rank is irrelevant except in the school that issued it. Trying to compare age/rank in one system to another is silly.
If it's a KKW school, an 18 year old 4th Dan is entirely possible. I don't think it's all that common, but possible.
In our system, that would equate to a 1st Dan.

Maybe it's time to empty your cup.


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## Bruce7 (Feb 2, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> As is said often, rank is irrelevant except in the school that issued it. Trying to compare age/rank in one system to another is silly.
> If it's a KKW school, an 18 year old 4th Dan is entirely possible. I don't think it's all that common, but possible.
> In our system, that would equate to a 1st Dan.
> 
> Maybe it's time to empty your cup.



I think you are right my cup is to full. I probably think I know more than I do.
I studied MA for 12 years , 8 years of which was from extraordinary teachers.

I never disagree with teachers or students in the school I am in,
but I probably don't put their options in my cup, so yes my cup is probably to full.

Outside of this one teacher, the classes are very enjoyably.


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## JR 137 (Feb 2, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Just got out of class, I am a little angry. The teachers who teach the classes are good, expect this 18 year old 4th degree black belt. She started in the school at age 6. She is a very poor teacher and her skill are not that great. She has an attitude that is not good either.
> The times I have been in her class, I have treated her with respect even though I thought her teaching method were not good.
> 
> The other instructors let me help the white and yellow belts I train with. They also let me train with upper level belts when we do tactical one steps. She does not like me helping the white and yellow belts and never lets me train with upper level students.
> ...


This is why for the most part you don’t promote teenagers to higher ranks and give them positions of authority. They’re not mature enough to appropriately handle certain situations.

And just because someone’s been training for 12 years doesn’t mean they’ve got a meaningful 12 years of experience. How in-depth was that training from 6-10 years old? From 10-14? Not very deep IMO. That’s not a shot at kids at all, btw. Kids shouldn’t train as adults.

Sure there’s 18 year olds out there who are worthy of a higher rank. Sure there’s 18 year olds who are more than capable of handling difficult situations appropriately. But they’re the exception, not the rule.

Yes, every organization has different standards. But that doesn’t mean you have kids on a power trip teaching adults. Or even kids. 

And sure, adults twice her age are also capable of being the same way.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 2, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Just got out of class, I am a little angry. The teachers who teach the classes are good, expect this 18 year old 4th degree black belt. She started in the school at age 6. She is a very poor teacher and her skill are not that great. She has an attitude that is not good either.
> The times I have been in her class, I have treated her with respect even though I thought her teaching method were not good.
> 
> The other instructors let me help the white and yellow belts I train with. They also let me train with upper level belts when we do tactical one steps. She does not like me helping the white and yellow belts and never lets me train with upper level students.
> ...



I’m not sure what “getting in your face” entails, but I’d consider it pretty common in a tkd school to expect students to freeze in their final position when practicing forms  until the instructor brings them back to the starting position. If the instructor brings the student to the ready position and gives the command to begin, the student waits until the command is given to move once the final move (that the student knows) is reached. That has been the common practice in every tkd school I can recall being in over the past 26 years. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Bruce7 (Feb 2, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I’m not sure what “getting in your face” entails, but I’d consider it pretty common in a tkd school to expect students to freeze in their final position when practicing forms  until the instructor brings them back to the starting position. If the instructor brings the student to the ready position and gives the command to begin, the student waits until the command is given to move once the final move (that the student knows) is reached. That has been the common practice in every tkd school I can recall being in over the past 26 years.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Please reread on a computer.
I do not think you understood the post.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 2, 2019)

I think the question is how long you stay in that stance before the instructor comes back. If its under a minute, it makes sense to hold the stance to be evaluated and continue. But if the instructor was spending time with the other ranks, it's a lot more helpful to go through the form (or what you know of it) multiple times, rather than just waiting there. I think  @Jaeimseu you're thinking of a situation where everyone goes through the form together, the yellow belts stop at point A, the orange belts at point B, etc., and once the form is finished everyone starts over, but that's not how I read the post.
Either way, like you said, it depends on what 'get in your face' means. If it's that she walked over to him and told him something like "in the future stay at X spot until everyone is done with the form", that's perfectly fine. If it's that she invaded personal space and yelled/demeaned him in front of the class for going backwards, that's an issue.


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## JR 137 (Feb 3, 2019)

The thing too is we’re only hearing @Bruce7 ’s side of the story. You know the saying: there’s 3 sides to every story - his, hers, and the truth. 

No, Bruce, I don’t think you’re lying.

When we’re doing kata in class, we’re supposed to wait at the end of the count until the teacher says “naore” which is basically come back to a ready stance. It’s so the teacher can look through the dojo and make sure everyone did what they were supposed to and make any corrections if necessary. It’s certainly not like training a dog with “sit, stay, don’t move.” A teacher on a power trip could absolutely turn it into that, but that’s not the genuine reason for it.

Our kyu/colored belt katas typically have 20 counts. Many black belt katas have far more. Using an extreme example, let’s say I’m doing Seido 4 kata and a black belt is doing Kanku; Seido 4 has 15 counts and Kanku has 55. I’m supposed to hold that final technique and stance until the teacher says “naore.” If I stop when I’m done and start doing my kata over or backwards, or whatever else, I’m going to disrupt the flow of everything. I’ll distract the teacher, students, etc. In my dojo I’ll probably get in someone’s way because we’re pretty cramped in there often enough. And the teachers won’t make us stand there the whole time, they’ll tell us to stop while the others continue. Or have us do something else. And that’s when we’re doing it to the teacher’s count rather than our own count. 

None of the teachers would get in someone’s face or bent out of shape over it. They’d politely tell the student to stand still until they’re told otherwise and explain why. Repeatedly doing it may get an interesting reaction, although I don’t think it would get an in your face reaction. It would get you pulled to the side and a conversation about why we do what we do.

Here’s the difference between some mature and experienced; someone who’s been around knows what’ll happen and will do things to avoid problems. They know what’s important and what isn’t. They won’t harp on things that don’t matter. They know the intent of the rules and go by those rather than just knowing the rules and blindly enforcing them to a tee. They’ll know when to relax and when to be a hardass. They know certain things bring out a BS response and will alter things whenever appropriate. And when it’s something critical that typically brings out responses they don’t like or didn’t anticipate, they don’t get rattled and lose it.

Very few 18 year olds and younger know which rules are worth enforcing and which ones aren’t. They think “that’s the way my teacher does it and I’m going to make sure it gets done.” They have that mentality that they should be given the same exact respect their teacher commands. They fail to realize no one’s going to give you that same level of respect because they haven’t earned it.

Adults absolutely act like this too. Not nearly as often and not nearly to the same extent. 

And Bruce, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here. I’m pretty sure you’re not doing things just to piss this kid off. I’m pretty sure you’re doing things that are acceptable in other people’s classes. But different teachers expect different things and have different hang ups. And some people are just bad teachers and/or just not my type of person. I just avoid going to classes I know they’re teaching, and suck it up when they unexpectedly teach a class someone else normally teaches. 

There was an assistant instructor who’s classes I avoided. Great person, and I wouldn’t hesitate to pull her aside and ask for some one-on-one help with anything. But just awful at running a class IMO. Just about every time I attended her class, I just went through the motions and got it over as quietly as possible. She was on a regular rotation, so I knew when to not go. And when she filled in for someone else, I knew what to expect.


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## Bruce7 (Feb 4, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> The thing too is we’re only hearing @Bruce7 ’s side of the story. You know the saying: there’s 3 sides to every story - his, hers, and the truth.
> 
> No, Bruce, I don’t think you’re lying.
> 
> ...



You are right in that you don't get to hear her account. So putting it in a post is unfair.
It was dumb of me to bring it up in a post.
I am done.


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## JR 137 (Feb 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> You are right in that you don't get to hear her account. So putting it in a post is unfair.
> It was dumb of me to bring it up in a post.
> I am done.


I wasn’t saying it like that. I’m in your side here.


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## Bruce7 (Feb 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> You are right in that you don't get to hear her account. So putting it in a post is unfair.
> It was dumb of me to bring it up in a post.
> I am done.



gpseymour, I do not enjoy this website any more please take me off your website.


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## JR 137 (Feb 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> gpseymour, I do not enjoy this website any more please take me off your website.


You’re a good guy, Bruce. I’m not sure how my post offended you. I said several times that I believed it was the teacher and not you. If you can’t accept that, then nothing else I can say will change anything.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> gpseymour, I do not enjoy this website any more please take me off your website.


It's not my website, I'm just a volunteer moderator. If you don't wish to participate, simply don't log in.


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## Bruce7 (Feb 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's not my website, I'm just a volunteer moderator. If you don't wish to participate, simply don't log in.


thanks, good advise 
this is my last post and I will not log in again.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 5, 2019)

Well, that was abrupt.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 5, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> thanks, good advise
> this is my last post and I will not log in again.


You okay Bruce? That's a bit of a 180, and I enjoyed your input here


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## Bruce7 (Feb 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> You okay Bruce? That's a bit of a 180, and I enjoyed your input here



Thank you, for your post it was helpful. Dvcochran sent me a nice email that help me get over my silly mad. I normal control anger well, just a lot of things were going on unrelated to MA, I rather not talk about.
Thank you for the support.


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## Bruce7 (Feb 22, 2019)

I am happy now, I quit the school. The Tiger Rock GM told me that I rolled my eyes sometimes and I apologized, I did not realize I had been doing that, that is a total wrong thing to do. Besides my apology I told him his school was great for kids and he was an excellent teacher. 
I also said it was hard for me to fit into a system where a black belt knew only one form. In my first school I had learn 18 forms over the course of 4 years and did not have a Black Belt. He said he understood , because he also had learn 18 forms for his black belt. We separated on good terms. I still believe for children they are excellent, during the belt test a student did not break his boards. I was close enough to hear the words of encouragement to the distress child from the GM. The Adult instructor at Tiger Rock are excellent. 

I had not realize, I had been disrespectful. I never said or did anything disrespectful. I guess what I was thinking was on my face. The older teachers were nice enough to just give me a pass because of my age and experience. Even though I never said or did anything, I think the young instructor could tell I did not respect the way she taught. Since she is not here, I will not explain IMO her bad teaching techniques.

I will be more careful about which school I join. I do not want to be guilty of being disrespect.


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## JRMFFL531 (Jul 19, 2022)

skribs said:


> Different schools have different ways of teaching.  Many schools nowadays use the method of teaching the students well enough, and over time correcting the mistakes.  At my school, by the time they get to be Black Belts they usually have a good foundational understanding of the art, and by the time they get to be 2nd or 3rd degree their techniques are pretty darn good.
> 
> 3-5 years for black belt is common nowadays.  But getting your black belt doesn't mean what the public thinks it means.  The uninitiated think the black belt is the expert, and the black belt is not.  The black belt has learned enough to be a student.  It is like getting your high school diploma.  I'm a 3rd degree black belt and I'm not an expert yet (although I'd say I'm pretty close).


What style do you study? But yes, I am seeing some younger and younger black belts. But then I have to remind myself Black Belt means your cup is still empty.


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## J. Pickard (Jul 19, 2022)

Everyone likes to talk about how "black belt is a beginner rank in Taekwondo and always has been" but this is demonstrably false. There are several articles and books about Taekwondo pre 1988 that talk about black belt being a high level of expertise. The idea that it is a beginner rank is very much a Kukkiwon idea that came after their push to become an Olympic event. I don't have a problem with how they changed their definition of black belt, it seems to work for them but it has not ALWAYS been this way. In Duk Sung Son's book "Korean Karate: The art of Tae Kwon Do" reference to black belt being high level is prevalent throughout. It's also implied in early books by Richard Chun, Choi, Park, and others that black belt is a high skill level if not outright saying it. People like to reference the fact that the founders of TKD achieved black belt rank in a year or two (sometimes less) and compare that to today but neglect to consider the total hours trained. Getting black belt in 2 years today is usually about 2-3 hours of training per week. According to Ed Sell, who got his Master title and 4th dan in about 2 years, he and his fellow students were training at the Dojang everyday all day (I was told this personally by him, I did not read it somewhere, so I guess this counts as anecdote?). In Son's book he states that to achieve black belt level of skill a student must be training rigorously 7 days a week for 1.5 hours. If you consider this, black belts in the 60's had the same hours training in a month that most students have in a year.  Additionally, Kano adopted the belt system first specifically so that high level competitors in his art of Judo would not be unfairly paired against someone with less experience and black belt was the belt chosen to represent the high level competitor. I wouldn't say black belt is necessarily an "expert" BUT it should definitely not be considered a beginner. 

Just my opinion; The idea that "a black belt is now ready to learn" is a misunderstanding of terms. Consider that the higher level of expertise you have in something the easier and better you can learn something related to it. 


Bruce7 said:


> way did the Korean want to change to this fast progression?


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 20, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> ..............................The idea that it is a beginner rank is very much a Kukkiwon idea that came after their push to become an Olympic event. I don't have a problem with how they changed their definition of black belt, it seems to work for them but it has not ALWAYS been this way. In Duk Sung Son's book "Korean Karate: The art of Tae Kwon Do" reference to black belt being high level is prevalent throughout. It's also implied in early books by Richard Chun, Choi, Park, and others that black belt is a high skill level.....................................
> 
> View attachment 28681


FWIW    In General Choi's text  ranks Dan Ranks 1-3   are labeled  "Novice"  and "Assistant  Instructor", 4-6 are labeled "Expert"   and "Instructor."


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