# true crime



## drummingman (Feb 12, 2007)

i just watched a msnbc investigation about 2 guys who killed a whole family,including 2 little girls,in the richmond va area.they came into the peoples house and killed them in their basement by slashing their throats and beating them to death with hammers.thiis really got me thinking about being able to really defend ourselves and our families the best we can.
i have been on a search for some time now to find a style of martial art that is really effective against real world violence,and theat means everything for the case that i talked about above to just some dumb drunk taking a swing at me in a bar.i know that everybody says that all styles can be effective,and i do believe that that is true,but i have to believe that there a certain styles that are better suited for self defense and offense.
when taking about the martial arts there a people that will deal with things in a philosophical way when it comes to self defense.but in the real world phiolosophical does not cut it.i mean,when someone is trying to kill you you have to make sure that you have made the right choice in the style that you have chosen to study so that you can truly be effective in defending yourslef.and that sometimes means that we have to become the attacker to protect ourselves and out families from violence,extreme violence as in the case i first talked about.sometimes it is necessary for us to attack first so we don't get killed.
the reason why i am talking about all of this is because i find some martial arts fascinating,like aikido,but i have to ask how effective it really is in all situations.being that aikido is a defensive art by nature what happens when a person has to be the first to attack.and not just attack in a way to keep the person attacking you from getting hurt just untill you can get the cops there to help ( and that goes for defending as well).im saying what if its really a life and death situation for you and your family? at that point you have to act in a way that is going to put the attacker out,maybe even kill them,to save your life and the life of your family.and im not just talking about aikido in this sense.i am asking the question of what art or fighting style is really effective in this kind of a real life situation where the philosophical goes out the window in favor of survival? if aikido works for this then awesome.for me i just need to make sure before i devote myslef to that style,or any other style instead of aikido.
so going with the line of thought i have to ask some questions.knowing what i have laid out here what style of ma or fighting or whatever will really cut it in situations that range from that drunk to some guy with a butcher knife trying to cut your heart out? do you think the style that you are now taking can really deal with these situations? if so what style do you take?
im just trying to cut away all the fluff and get to the real nitty gritty of things.i mean,if a person is going to take the time and put in the effort to study a martial art for self defense i feel that it should truly be effective for real self defense.


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## Bubba Buck (Feb 12, 2007)

Just like in this situation they will most likely have weapons and there will be more than one. When it comes to somebody inside my house that wants to hurt my family martial arts will be my second defense.


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## drummingman (Feb 12, 2007)

well that may be true but what if it has to be your first defense? say on the street or if you just answer your door and someone tries to bust in while you are standing in your doorway unarmd? then what?


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2007)

drummingman said:


> i just watched a msnbc investigation about 2 guys who killed a whole family,including 2 little girls,in the richmond va area.they came into the peoples house and killed them in their basement by slashing their throats and beating them to death with hammers.thiis really got me thinking about being able to really defend ourselves and our families the best we can.
> i have been on a search for some time now to find a style of martial art that is really effective against real world violence,and theat means everything for the case that i talked about above to just some dumb drunk taking a swing at me in a bar.i know that everybody says that all styles can be effective,and i do believe that that is true,but i have to believe that there a certain styles that are better suited for self defense and offense.
> when taking about the martial arts there a people that will deal with things in a philosophical way when it comes to self defense.but in the real world phiolosophical does not cut it.i mean,when someone is trying to kill you you have to make sure that you have made the right choice in the style that you have chosen to study so that you can truly be effective in defending yourslef.and that sometimes means that we have to become the attacker to protect ourselves and out families from violence,extreme violence as in the case i first talked about.sometimes it is necessary for us to attack first so we don't get killed.
> the reason why i am talking about all of this is because i find some martial arts fascinating,like aikido,but i have to ask how effective it really is in all situations.being that aikido is a defensive art by nature what happens when a person has to be the first to attack.and not just attack in a way to keep the person attacking you from getting hurt just untill you can get the cops there to help ( and that goes for defending as well).im saying what if its really a life and death situation for you and your family? at that point you have to act in a way that is going to put the attacker out,maybe even kill them,to save your life and the life of your family.and im not just talking about aikido in this sense.i am asking the question of what art or fighting style is really effective in this kind of a real life situation where the philosophical goes out the window in favor of survival? if aikido works for this then awesome.for me i just need to make sure before i devote myslef to that style,or any other style instead of aikido.
> ...


 
Well, I'm going to start off with the obvious.  I'm sure many will suggest a firearm for home protection.  In the event one is not available, I'd pick up the nearest tool available to me.  If it was a kitchen knife, a baseball bat or a pair of scissors, then so be it.  In this case, they're entering a house with weapons, so they've already escalated the force.

As for what art to choose.  As you know, there are many arts out there.  One thing that I feel is important is how the person doing the art trains.  If someone really wants to be as good as possible, they're going to have to put in the time, effort and training.  If that means cross training, then so be it.  Working scenario drills is also another important thing.  Is there some aliveness and realism in the training?  Like I said, alot of it is going to come down to how the person doing the art is training.

Mike


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## charyuop (Feb 12, 2007)

As my Sensei always says, when someone punches you there are different reactions that you can have. You can lower your head close your eyes and panick, you can jump against the person punching you, you can deflect/block...
A Martial Art can teach you the way to behave when someone punches you, but the way you react to a sudden attack is and will be up to you. Every Martial Art here and there has pieces in common with another. It never comes down to the effectiveness of a Martial Art, but to the ability of a Martial Artis in put into practice what he/she has learnt in a dojo.
You can stand with your arms by your side holding a gun, but if when attacked you have the wrong reaction or the wrong timing even the gun will be useless.
If your interest into Martial Arts is merely for self-defence I wouldn't worry too much which one is better, but jump into one and start training your reflex/reaction time immediately.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 12, 2007)

*Mod Note:*Thread moved to General Self Defense to generate more traffic.

SFC JeffJ

Martial Talk Moderator.


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## still learning (Feb 12, 2007)

Hello, Try JUDO?   In alot of situtions when up close,(grab distance).  Judo can be a very effective art.

In most Judo throws the idea is off balance the the other person and throw/take them down.

Try it to form your own opinion on this. (doing JUDO..will give you the best information on it's effectiveness).

There is more to JUDO than just throws.................Aloha


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## bushidomartialarts (Feb 12, 2007)

the first line of defense is *awareness*:  do you know what kind of neighborhood you're going to? do you know who's knocking at your door at 11 at night? do you know the locations of everybody within 100 yards of you as you walk to your car?  _awareness will circumvent 50 or 60% of potential problems

_the second line of defense is *good sense*:  will you decide to meet your friend at a different bar if the neighborhood is sketchy?  will you refuse to open your door at night if the person on the other side can't satisfy you as to the nature of his business?  will you ask security for an escort to your car if you don't like the vibe on the street?  will you spend the money on solid locks for your doors and windows?  _good sense will help you avoid 80-90% of the problems awareness doesn't fix.

_the third line of defense is *avoidance*:  when in doubt, run like hell.  i'm a 3rd degree black belt with lots of fight experience and good body strength.  i'd say i've got a 1 in 10 chance of even being hurt by your average attacker.  but if i run away that drops to a *0 *in 10 chance. i run faster scared than you do mad.

for the fraction of a fraction of a percent of the stuff you can't miss by awareness, good sense and avoidance, your best bet is to grab something heavy or sharp and aim for the hands, head and neck.  you'll get lots of advice on which art teaches this best, but there's no superior art.  a good instructor and good devotion to training matter.

but again, you have three good lines of defense before you even have to worry about being attacked.  focus on those for your self-defense and let martial training be about becoming a better person.


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## Bubba Buck (Feb 13, 2007)

drummingman said:


> well that may be true but what if it has to be your first defense? say on the street or if you just answer your door and someone tries to bust in while you are standing in your doorway unarmd? then what?


 
On the street I like MT because I'd rather not go to the ground or be "tied up" with someone who probably has friends waiting to jump in. In my house It's on a totally different level as I would not consider the law and outcome as much. In this case just like MJS said I will be looking for something to seriously injure them with. I like to have something nearby and readily available by the door that they can't see if they get in without me knowing. For an example, a weapon behind my entertainment center that sits beside the door. And I would be hollaring for my family to call the cops while i'm fighting off the intruder. If your family has cell phone's it's a good idea to keep one in the bedroom or better yet in the kids room since that's where you would want your wife to go while you check out things out in the other rooms. This will also be good if someone cuts the phone lines before they come in.


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 13, 2007)

As you stated, all styles "can be" effective, so that places the real affectability on the individual. One MUST be willing to inflict serious bodily harm, including death, if the situation deems necessary. Now this is easier said then done. I would venture a guess that some of the folks here at MT have encountered the dojo/dojang warrior types. Very good practicioners and impressive skill sets, but no real heart for battle. I realize this can be any person at any time in their life, but when one undergoes training to faciliate their personal readiness to do said battle, then they must also attempt to program their personal computer (brain) to react accordingly. This can only be done by the individual him/her self. The training one partakes in only serves as a reinforcement to the mindset that must be in place. It's the same as carrying a gun, it becomes worthless as protection if your not willing to pull the trigger.


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 13, 2007)

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servle...TD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1149190019220


> He said he and accomplice Ray Joseph Dandridge chose to rob the Harvey home because the front door was open. It was about 10 a.m., and Bryan Harvey was reading in the living room, Kathryn was in the kitchen and Ruby was playing upstairs.
> 
> "We walked in and talked them downstairs," Gray said.
> 
> ...



Martial Arts? All it would have took was for one of the victims to have grabbed that hammer first and begin swinging. Martial Arts and training would have made that effort more effective and efficient, what whats most important is the mindest to FIGHT and not go to your families slaughter passively. Not that I place any blame on those poor people, fortunately we live in a society where most of us dont have to worry about something like that, but we should all decide right now that if we were in that situation we grab a weapon and fight. You may still die but at least you may have a chance. Standing there doing nothing while they tie you up in your basement makes the outcome 100% certain.


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 13, 2007)

Our "corrections" system at work. There IS NO REHABILITATION for people who do things like this. In a case like this I am 110% for the death penalty. Id be willing to pull the switch myself.


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## charyuop (Feb 13, 2007)

I think most of the people co-operate without fighting back because in most of the cases that is actually the best way to get out of it alive. Give all you have and not resisting so thieves go away...unfortunately in small percentages of cases that is not right.


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## Blotan Hunka (Feb 13, 2007)

Never let the bad guy take you away in a car.
Never let a bad guy tie you up.

Better to fight and risk death in those situations.


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## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 14, 2007)

Drummingman,

SD is our Alpha reason for training in our Dojo, and  yes  at times our Dojo  can be a bit harsh for the newbie.

  But  what  those  animals  did  to that  family   and what  others like them  are willing to do to you is far harsher.

You dont  train troops  for war by being kind  and nice, you do it by putting them through hard training,  pain and stress.

 Assults are short term wars.

 Whjo  do you want totrain with?
an R.Lee Ermmy type, or Mr. Nice Guy?


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## Mike Hamer (Mar 6, 2007)

I would say if you are really worried about this type of lethal attack then just go and join the Marines or something.


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## BallistikMike (Mar 6, 2007)

5 very important things that can be done.

1. Get in shape. Athletic shape. It will help with the physical requirements as well as the mental toughness training.

2. Harden your home, make sure door and window locks work, lightbulbs are on, sliding doors have pole locks behind the doors not just the door latch locks, make sure basement windows/window wells are locked.

3. Put a club like weapon in every room. You more then likely have them already. The cave man swing from people defending thier very lives is a tried and true method of self-defense these past million years or so lol.

4. Get a panic button if not an entire alarm system.

5. Get formal training in hand-to-hand, firearms, knife and club work. What you chose is how far you want to take things, but something is better then zero.

P.S. sometime you just get unlucky and nothing you can do about it.


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## YinYang (Jan 20, 2009)

Bubba Buck said:


> Just like in this situation they will most likely have weapons and there will be more than one. When it comes to somebody inside my house that wants to hurt my family martial arts will be my second defense.



Heres my primary self defense: (KelTec P-11 9mm)






But, I also keep a 500 at close bay, just like the one pictured below:
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Nothing says "GET OUT" like the rack of a 12ga.  :ultracool

Andrew


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 21, 2009)

Prepare to repel borders violently!


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## Guardian (Jan 21, 2009)

Allot of good points, I'm armed and their easy to reach no matter what, my wife also knows how to shoot and where to get them in the house, but with small kids, you have to be careful, ours are grown up and gone.  I advocate to people that I trained and trained with, that anything is a weapon in your house and you better be prepared if someone enters your house to just start grabbing things and go ballistic on them without hesitation, without remorse.  If it means going animal on them like a PitBull when you enter it's yard, so be it, be that PitBull or German Shepherd guarding it's turf.

If nothing else, give your other half he opportunity to reach your weapons, throw yourself into the fray and give them the chance to get to them, chances are you can hold out long enough for them to come to your aide with firepower.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 21, 2009)

Guardian said:


> Allot of good points, I'm armed and their easy to reach no matter what, my wife also knows how to shoot and where to get them in the house, but with small kids, you have to be careful, ours are grown up and gone.  I advocate to people that I trained and trained with, that anything is a weapon in your house and you better be prepared if someone enters your house to just start grabbing things and go ballistic on them without hesitation, without remorse.  If it means going animal on them like a PitBull when you enter it's yard, so be it, be that PitBull or German Shepherd guarding it's turf.
> 
> If nothing else, give your other half he opportunity to reach your weapons, throw yourself into the fray and give them the chance to get to them, chances are you can hold out long enough for them to come to your aide with firepower.


 All good points.....


On the subject of throwing yourself in the fray to allow the other half to get the firepower.......I am reminded of the old Jerry Clower joke about raccoon hunting and the raccoon (really a LYNX!) and the hunter fighting in the tree....

'Shoot this thing, it's killing me!'

'I can't shoot up there, I might hit you!'......

'WELL JUST SHOOT UP HERE AMONGST US, ONE OF US HAS GOT THE HAVE SOME RELIEF!'


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 21, 2009)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Never let the bad guy take you away in a car.
> Never let a bad guy tie you up.
> 
> Better to fight and risk death in those situations.


 
I agree. While I'm not worred so much for my car, police have said many times if you are forced into a car the chances of living go down fast. Real fast. That is, don't get into the car with them. And this also appies to them forcing you on the ground or tieing you up.



drummingman said:


> well that may be true but what if it has to be your first defense? say on the street or if you just answer your door and someone tries to bust in while you are standing in your doorway unarmd? then what?


 
Glockdo drummingman, Glockdo! Glock 27 to be exact. Usually backed up by a P3AT.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> I agree. While I'm not worred so much for my car, police have said many times if you are forced into a car the chances of living go down fast. Real fast. That is, don't get into the car with them. And this also appies to them forcing you on the ground or tieing you up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I don't answer my door without knowing who's outside.....and when the knock comes in the middle of the night I don't answer it without my old friend Benelli M2T 12 gauge backing me up.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 23, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Yeah, I don't answer my door without knowing who's outside.....and when the knock comes in the middle of the night I don't answer it without my old friend Benelli M2T 12 gauge backing me up.


 
Here is a trick I have sgtmac,

If your outside doors have poarchs (our front and back doors do) then  get a stick-on truck mirror, one of the kinds that are parabolic and allow you to see wide angles, and outside the door where the roof overhang is stick it so from the inside of the door you can see the mirror.

That way, go to the peep hole and look at the mirror and see if anyone is hideing besides the door!

As for answering the door, I have a member of my law firm with me. The firm of Smith & Wesson. I only use a 12 guage when an injuction is needed.

Deaf


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## searcher (Jan 23, 2009)

BallistikMike said:


> 4. Get a panic button if not an entire alarm system.


 

You most likely have this one already.   The panic button on your car's remote keyless entry.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 23, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Here is a trick I have sgtmac,
> 
> If your outside doors have poarchs (our front and back doors do) then  get a stick-on truck mirror, one of the kinds that are parabolic and allow you to see wide angles, and outside the door where the roof overhang is stick it so from the inside of the door you can see the mirror.
> 
> ...


 Injunction....heheheheh.....


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## redantstyle (Jan 24, 2009)

OP,

Kuntao.

regards.


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## David Weatherly (Jan 24, 2009)

searcher said:


> You most likely have this one already. The panic button on your car's remote keyless entry.


 

Yes, but the problem with car alarms is that most people ignore them since they go off in public so often.

David


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