# "karate is back!"



## Silentwarrior702 (May 24, 2009)

I was happy to see Machida obtain his victory over Rashad Evans last night. I hope this will open the door for more traditional arts to get into MMA and do well. It's been far too long that traditional arts have been downgraded in the sport of MMA.  Now we have four champion fighters in the sport which are doing extremley well. Those being Machida (Shotokahn Karate),George Saint Pierre (Kyushokin Ki Karate), Anderson Silva (Muay Thai) and the phenomenol Cung Li (San Shao Kung Fu). All the best to them!


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## terryl965 (May 24, 2009)

Was Karate ever gone really?


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## Omar B (May 24, 2009)

No, karate was never gone.  MMA people who wanna learn over the weekend and think they have a grasp of a fighting system may talk crap because it takes a ::gasp:: commitment to totally understand and use the system.  It's just like a lot of this RBSD that they sell to people, quick, easy to learn and in some cases devastating but most of the time it's all bluster and little depth.


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## Tez3 (May 24, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Was Karate ever gone really?


 

No! You're correct. 

Silentwarrior, MMA fighters don't fight 'karate' nor do they fight any other style other than Mixed Martial Arts. It's what it says it is.

Most of the fighters I know have a TMA as a core style, traditional styles haven't been downgraded in MMA at all, what on earth do people think they are doing. . .playing hockey? No they are using tradtional styles of fighting only mixing them to produce all round skills.
Traditional styles used in MMA and please feel free to add..karate, TKD, TSD, Judo, MT, Aikido, juijitsu (both Japanese and Brazilian), CMAs.

You may want to extend the list of TMA people who have done well to include people like Bas Rutten etc.


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## Silentwarrior702 (May 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No! You're correct.
> 
> Silentwarrior, MMA fighters don't fight 'karate' nor do they fight any other style other than Mixed Martial Arts. It's what it says it is.
> 
> ...


True there were more traditionalists that have fought in MMA (Bas Rutten is an excellent exampleof one who did very well) but a lot of others didn't do very good . Possibly because they weren't using there art or maybe even set up.In the early days of the UFC I saw too many traditionalists being mauled early in the fight so I question where they got there credentials.This included a Wing Chun  stylists and a so called "Pa Kua slammer" who tapped out from one punch form Don Frye even though he bragged about being in over 400 street fights.Both of these styles of martial arts are great but who were there fights with to get into the UFC? There 10 year old brother?  In the early days of the UFC there was a extremely large amount of fighters using many many different styles. A lot of people forget about Keith (the giant killer) Hackney. Who used his Shaolin Kenpo very well to be victorious that was over a Sumo practioner that was 300 pounds heavier than him. Also not forget shotokahn stylist Howard Harold who had the oportunity to fight Royce Gracie until....supposivley gased out from his fight with Kimo.Also there was a Ninjitsu practioner  that did extremley well in the early days. Not to also mention preying mantis and Silat styliststhat made it to the finals but were never shown.Why was this?  Now fast forward to the new days of  MMA..... living in Vegas it's everywhere. Some guys haven'tdon't even a martial arts background at all and are in there mid 20's have been training MMA for a year or so and believe they will be the next UFC superstar.Yet they will put down kartae and kung fu using them as generic terms for martial arts.You would be suprised how many MMA guys say I have heard say that the traditional arts are gone. But I have seen two new tradionalists in the sport. One being an American Kenpo stylists and another JKD. But the Kenpo guy was not using Kenpo it looked more like he was trying to fight MMA with there rules. The JKD guy was doing good until he got taken to the ground.Who could you actually use these styles with the new rules? Another problem faced is the McDojo. Too many of them giving away black belts like candy. As far as BJJ being a martial art....I was told very professionally by an owner of a BJJ school whio was in partner with a guy that trains and taps out Frank Mir that they train "sport Jiu-Jitsu". I am not trying to downgrade the sport of MMA or ANY traditional styles but it's very unfortunate that these days at least in las Vegas many people are just handing down black belts so many guys are looking only MMA (which was called by Dana White Muay Thai, Boxing,Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu)as the answer. As for the title of my thread it was only a quote from Machida after he recieved his very well deserved win.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2009)

Silentwarrior702 said:


> True there were more traditionalists that have fought in MMA (Bas Rutten is an excellent exampleof one who did very well) but a lot of others didn't do very good . Possibly because they weren't using there art or maybe even set up.In the early days of the UFC I saw too many traditionalists being mauled early in the fight so I question where they got there credentials.This included a Wing Chun stylists and a so called "Pa Kua slammer" who tapped out from one punch form Don Frye even though he bragged about being in over 400 street fights.Both of these styles of martial arts are great but who were there fights with to get into the UFC? There 10 year old brother? In the early days of the UFC there was a extremely large amount of fighters using many many different styles. A lot of people forget about Keith (the giant killer) Hackney. Who used his Shaolin Kenpo very well to be victorious that was over a Sumo practioner that was 300 pounds heavier than him. Also not forget shotokahn stylist Howard Harold who had the oportunity to fight Royce Gracie until....supposivley gased out from his fight with Kimo.Also there was a Ninjitsu practioner that did extremley well in the early days. Not to also mention preying mantis and Silat styliststhat made it to the finals but were never shown.Why was this? Now fast forward to the new days of MMA..... living in Vegas it's everywhere. Some guys haven'tdon't even a martial arts background at all and are in there mid 20's have been training MMA for a year or so and believe they will be the next UFC superstar.Yet they will put down kartae and kung fu using them as generic terms for martial arts.You would be suprised how many MMA guys say I have heard say that the traditional arts are gone. But I have seen two new tradionalists in the sport. One being an American Kenpo stylists and another JKD. But the Kenpo guy was not using Kenpo it looked more like he was trying to fight MMA with there rules. The JKD guy was doing good until he got taken to the ground.Who could you actually use these styles with the new rules? Another problem faced is the McDojo. Too many of them giving away black belts like candy. As far as BJJ being a martial art....I was told very professionally by an owner of a BJJ school whio was in partner with a guy that trains and taps out Frank Mir that they train "sport Jiu-Jitsu". I am not trying to downgrade the sport of MMA or ANY traditional styles but it's very unfortunate that these days at least in las Vegas many people are just handing down black belts so many guys are looking only MMA (which was called by Dana White Muay Thai, Boxing,Wrestling, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu)as the answer. As for the title of my thread it was only a quote from Machida after he recieved his very well deserved win.


 

This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC! 
There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.


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## Andrew Green (May 25, 2009)

Silentwarrior702 said:


> I was happy to see Machida obtain his victory over Rashad Evans last night. I hope this will open the door for more traditional arts to get into MMA and do well. It's been far too long that traditional arts have been downgraded in the sport of MMA.  Now we have four champion fighters in the sport which are doing extremley well. Those being Machida (Shotokahn Karate),George Saint Pierre (Kyushokin Ki Karate), Anderson Silva (Muay Thai) and the phenomenol Cung Li (San Shao Kung Fu). All the best to them!



Karate never really went anywhere.

That said, these guys are exceptions, the way they train their karate is not the way most people doing karate train.  They train as professional fighters, and cross train heavily.  That is what makes the difference.

Karate, boxing, Muay thai, etc.  That doesn't matter, what matters is how you train it.


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## dnovice (May 25, 2009)

this why I always "it's not style rather its the martial artist that is good or not." I respect every style. They can all be used to fight; some are just more difficult to use and also take a huge commitment to master.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Karate never really went anywhere.
> 
> That said, these guys are exceptions, the way they train their karate is not the way most people doing karate train. They train as professional fighters, and cross train heavily. That is what makes the difference.
> 
> Karate, boxing, Muay thai, etc. That doesn't matter, what matters is how you train it.


 

Quoted for truth!
As I've said before karate is often seen in MMA, just that 'lay' people don't recognise it from the Karate Kid type they are used to seeing.


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## yorkshirelad (May 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
> There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
> The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.


 
BJJ was the cause of UFC AND the saving. It was created by Rorian Gracie initially to show the superiority of BJJ to other systems. 

MMA has indeed been around alot longer than the UFC, the Kajukembo guys in the US have always had their fight clubs, then there's JKD and the X-kans who trace their roots in mixed martial arts to almost a thousand years. 

UFC brought MMA out of the shodows and into the mainstream. If Machida stays on top of his game in the near future, It will be curious to see how many new Karate franchise studios open up in SoCal. Now we have almost every kind of studio offering BJJ classes. I wonder how many BJJ studios will now offer traditional Karate classes.

The truth is that Traditional Karate has always been an integral component in MMA. It's nice to see it recognised once again.


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## Silentwarrior702 (May 25, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
> There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
> The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazilian jiu jitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.


Which organizations are you talking about? I remember in PRIDE there were more traditionalists. I have also seen early videos from King Of The Cage, Gladiator Challenge,Ring Of Fire and others.  I'm sure there there are many other organizations out there but who are they?


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## terryl965 (May 25, 2009)

OK folks before somebody blows a head gasket, remember we are talking Karate.


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## Silentwarrior702 (May 25, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> OK folks before somebody blows a head gasket, remember we are talking Karate.


Fair enough...


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2009)

Silentwarrior702 said:


> Which organizations are you talking about? I remember in PRIDE there were more traditionalists. I have also seen early videos from King Of The Cage, Gladiator Challenge,Ring Of Fire and others. I'm sure there there are many other organizations out there but who are they?


 
Google is your friend you know.

It would be good if karate was taught everywhere as it should be not a watered down 'dancing' kata and tippy tappy sparring type of stuff.
Thank goodness there's still some who teach it 'old' style.


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## Sandwich (May 27, 2009)

It's pretty cool to see a talented mixed martial artist who's main style is Karate. Of course, Machida also trains Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, and works with muay thai trainers occasionally.

I see Lyoto keeping his title for awhile, he's a very talented fighter.

I have to mention though, Georges St. Pierre hasn't trained Karate in 12 years.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 29, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Was Karate ever gone really?


No.  People thought that if they ignored it long enough that it would go away.  

Surprise!

Daniel


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## Steve (May 29, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
> There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
> The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.


Tez, I'm usually right there with you in all things MMA, but I think that trying to tie modern MMA to pancrase is tenuous.  While the idea of fighting at multiple ranges in competition isn't new, modern MMA is a relatively well defined ruleset that... yes... started with the UFC.

It was in the early 2000's when the UFC applied to the Nevada Gaming Commission to hold a sanctioned event and it was approved using rules that had been developed loosely in, IIRC, New Jersey.  These rules and this sanctioned event SAVED MMA as a sport.  And, like it or not, the Ultimate Fighter as a reality series on free TV, was largely responsible for the strong international growth of the sport in it's modern form.

I know that there were organizations like Pride and the Pancrase events, as well as Vale Tudo outside of the USA, but if we're talking about the modern sport of MMA, we're talking about the UFC and the smaller promotions attempting to either compete with (and failing) or share in the popularity of the sport.  King of the Cage, Pre-Zuffa WEC, Pride, K1 etc are making money largely because of the UFC.

Now, I'm not saying MMA was invented by the UFC.  What I am saying is that MMA came about as a financially viable, well defined sport when the UFC applied for and was granted licensing in the state of Nevada to hold the first sanctioned event.

This is all from memory, so if I've got things mixed up, please let me know.


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## Kenpo1981 (Jun 9, 2009)

I for one am a big fan of MMA. I was a big boxing fan, but MMA has so much more to offer a fan. I've been a martial artist for many years and kickboxed before the UFC stuff came along...DANG IT! I would have loved to do MMA in those younger years.

I'm happy to see how MMA has evolved since it started here in the U.S. With the rules MMA uses it has lent itself to wrestlers, boxers, and jui jitsu guys. The door has been open for the "karate" guys as well. A few good ones have done very well that have been mentioned in this thread. However, from my many years of experience I feel that most "karate" schools don't do near enough hard contact to prepare their guys for this MMA stuff. They do great "air karate", but that's just not enough.

If a "karate" practioner adjusts his technique to fit the MMA rules and gets in the hard contact training, and the conditioning then they can be very formidable. The "karate" guys give some different angles and movement than most MMA fighters do. The "karate" guys have to be able to do and defend against the other guys moves though. MMA has proven the well-rounded guy has the best chance.

I think we need to keep in mind that MMA is not real fighting, it's an athletic contest and it is indeed martial. Some of their moves will get you really hurt on the street. But then a good MMA fighter should work on adapting it to street use as well. Against most traditional martial artists I would bet on the MMA guy in a street fight due to real contact experience and the conditioning.

I applaud the "karate" guys who have adapted and make it look good. My meaning behind putting "karate" in quotes is simply that the word has become very generic in America. If you have just Tae Kwon Do or Kenpo, or Hapkido on your sign most people still don't know what that is. Add the word karate to the end and people understand what you are advertising.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2009)

Kenpo1981 said:


> I for one am a big fan of MMA. I was a big boxing fan, but MMA has so much more to offer a fan. I've been a martial artist for many years and kickboxed before the UFC stuff came along...DANG IT! I would have loved to do MMA in those younger years.
> 
> I'm happy to see how MMA has evolved since it started here in the U.S. With the rules MMA uses it has lent itself to wrestlers, boxers, and jui jitsu guys. The door has been open for the "karate" guys as well. A few good ones have done very well that have been mentioned in this thread. However, from my many years of experience I feel that most "karate" schools don't do near enough hard contact to prepare their guys for this MMA stuff. They do great "air karate", but that's just not enough.
> 
> ...


 

Not real fighting? I think you should tell that to some of the guys I was reffing on Saturday lol! Especially the one with the bust nose and the one that got KO'd! I'd describe it as fighting with rules sounds a tad better than 'an athletic contest' tbh that sounds somewhat wussy! of course you could just say it's MMA lol!


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## Kenpo1981 (Jun 9, 2009)

I just mean it's a contest with rules, a ring, gloves, a cup, a mouthpiece, a referee, time constraints, a mat, etc. None of that is in a a real fight. If there is an athletic contest out there that is close to a real fight it is definitely MMA. People get broken bones in football, too. That doesn't make it a fight. If you really read my earlier post you will see respect is given to all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 10, 2009)

Kenpo1981 said:


> I just mean it's a contest with rules, a ring, gloves, a cup, a mouthpiece, a referee, time constraints, a mat, etc. None of that is in a a real fight. If there is an athletic contest out there that is close to a real fight it is definitely MMA. People get broken bones in football, too. That doesn't make it a fight. If you really read my earlier post you will see respect is given to all.


Technically, it is a fight.  It just is not a street fight or the same as true self defense (admitting that there is a good deal of crossover with regards to specific techniques).  

Football does not qualify as a fight.  The goal in MMA is to KO, submit, or out fight your opponent and win on points or by decision or whatever they call it in MMA.  All of the skills used are specifically fighting skills.  All skills in football are geared towards the movement of the ball; either facilitating it or preventing it.  The fact that it is physically demanding is about the only commonality that it has with MMA.

Daniel


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## sempai little1 (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm new here and I will admit I didn't read all the posts (there is just too much to catch up on). 
But I am going to toss my two cents in anyway. 
Karate and continuous may not be street fighting but the basic applications are there. I have been lucky enough to compete at a high level in both styles of fighting.....and it kinda hurt. .
But when I was confronted on the street my skills that I trained in the dojo came in pretty darn handy. I had control and did only what needed to be done in the situation to make the ..... (insert your choice of word here) back away. 
I think the only real difference between street fighting and "traditional" fighting is the respect level for your opponent and the control over your abilities and emotions.
"traditional" fighters, I think, could make great street fighters.
That being said, I have been training in Karate for several years and would not suggest someone with out proper training test my theory.
Remember I'm new here so be kind to me if you disagree. You can be mean when I figure you guys out. Then we can drop the gloves. (I say confidently sitting behind my computer screen.
Your friend,
Sempai Little1:wavey:


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## Silentwarrior702 (Jun 21, 2009)

sempai little1 said:


> I'm new here and I will admit I didn't read all the posts (there is just too much to catch up on).
> But I am going to toss my two cents in anyway.
> Karate and continuous may not be street fighting but the basic applications are there. I have been lucky enough to compete at a high level in both styles of fighting.....and it kinda hurt. .
> But when I was confronted on the street my skills that I trained in the dojo came in pretty darn handy. I had control and did only what needed to be done in the situation to make the ..... (insert your choice of word here) back away.
> ...


 I never said anything about streetfighting or traditional fighters being able to make great street fighters. I was talking about how it is able to work in MMA. MMA is a sport there are set rules so it is not a street fight.


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## Tez3 (Jun 21, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Tez, I'm usually right there with you in all things MMA, but I think that trying to tie modern MMA to pancrase is tenuous. While the idea of fighting at multiple ranges in competition isn't new, modern MMA is a relatively well defined ruleset that... yes... started with the UFC.
> 
> It was in the early 2000's when the UFC applied to the Nevada Gaming Commission to hold a sanctioned event and it was approved using rules that had been developed loosely in, IIRC, New Jersey. These rules and this sanctioned event SAVED MMA as a sport. And, like it or not, the Ultimate Fighter as a reality series on free TV, was largely responsible for the strong international growth of the sport in it's modern form.
> 
> ...


 
Am pretty sure I wasn't tying MMA to pancrase, I didn't mention it!
My point was that MMA doesn't equal UFC, there were MMA fights in Brazil before UFC and we had some early ones as well. UFC did the hyping up of it.


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## jarrod (Jun 21, 2009)

i think it might be useful to point out the difference between MMA & vale tudo/NHB.  early UFC was an NHB promotion, which gradually evolved into MMA in order to gain sanctioning.  while the UFC isn't my favorite promotion, they _did_ start modern MMA.  

jf


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## Domino (Jun 23, 2009)

Silentwarrior702 said:


> I was happy to see Machida obtain his victory over Rashad Evans last night. I hope this will open the door for more traditional arts to get into MMA and do well. It's been far too long that traditional arts have been downgraded in the sport of MMA.  Now we have four champion fighters in the sport which are doing extremley well. Those being Machida (Shotokan Karate),George Saint Pierre (Kyushokin Ki Karate), Anderson Silva (Muay Thai) and the phenomenol Cung Li (San Shao Kung Fu). All the best to them!



Getting back on topic, I totally agree, humble guy, trains very hard, still trains Shotokan and I hope he stays undefeated for some time !
Also, as part of tradition, drinks his own urine.


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## Steve (Jun 23, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Am pretty sure I wasn't tying MMA to pancrase, I didn't mention it!
> My point was that MMA doesn't equal UFC, there were MMA fights in Brazil before UFC and we had some early ones as well. UFC did the hyping up of it.


Your point was that MMA doesn't equal UFC.  The truth is (and you can't change history), that MMA is entirely the creation of a few guys in New Jersey who initially put together what would become a comprehensive ruleset.  This was picked up by Zuffa who had just purchased the UFC. 

Prior to this, what existed was a blood sport putting on largely unsanctioned, NHB events.  As I said, there was certainly plenty of this kind of thing.  In the USA, the UFC floundered around for a while.  In Japan, even before the first UFC, there were Pancrase events.  Vale Tudo had been going on for decades in Brazil.  But MMA hadn't even been invented.

In 2001, when the UFC held their first sanctioned event using unified rules, they created the sport of MMA.  This sport has spread, largely through the popularity (like it or not) of TUF on free TV.  Moving from PPV to free tv was the spark that the UFC needed to move it into mainstream consciousness.  The growth of the sport nationwide, including the revival in popularity in the western world of organizations like Pride FC and K1 rests squarely on the success of the UFC.  

Point being, prior to 2001, there were NHB events, but they weren't MMA.  You, of all people, should understand this, as you continuously point out that MMA is a sport with rules.  I agree... and prior to 2001, those rules were largely undefined.  Since 2001, they are relatively consistent.


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Your point was that MMA doesn't equal UFC. The truth is (and you can't change history), that MMA is entirely the creation of a few guys in New Jersey who initially put together what would become a comprehensive ruleset. This was picked up by Zuffa who had just purchased the UFC.
> 
> Prior to this, what existed was a blood sport putting on largely unsanctioned, NHB events. As I said, there was certainly plenty of this kind of thing. In the USA, the UFC floundered around for a while. In Japan, even before the first UFC, there were Pancrase events. Vale Tudo had been going on for decades in Brazil. But MMA hadn't even been invented.
> 
> ...


 

My point usually is that people use 'UFC' to mean MMA which isn't correct whoever started it. There's no such style as UFC. MMA is the sport and UFC is the promotion.
You're very lucky if you get any MMA on freeview, we have to pay to everything.

This is probably very small on the world scene but in 1997 Lee Hasdell held the UKs first MMA fight night in Milton Keynes, followed by quite a few more. Ok who and where I hear you asking but it's true we were there. small but very good.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Hasdell

Our club started training in MMA in 1999.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Jun 29, 2009)

K-krotty is back?

Also, guys, stop getting Tez all riled up.


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## Tez3 (Jun 29, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> K-krotty is back?
> 
> Also, guys, stop getting Tez all riled up.


 
:lol:  thank you kind sir!


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Jun 29, 2009)

Afterall, we all know that MMA is lame. ;D

(Just kidding, you know I love you)


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## Domino (Jun 30, 2009)

Go drink some urine dude


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Jun 30, 2009)

I do. Because it's sterile and I like the taste

(kudos to whoever gets that)


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## Steve (Jun 30, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> My point usually is that people use 'UFC' to mean MMA which isn't correct whoever started it. There's no such style as UFC. MMA is the sport and UFC is the promotion.
> You're very lucky if you get any MMA on freeview, we have to pay to everything.
> 
> This is probably very small on the world scene but in 1997 Lee Hasdell held the UKs first MMA fight night in Milton Keynes, followed by quite a few more. Ok who and where I hear you asking but it's true we were there. small but very good.
> ...


It's kind of like having a dickish brother.  Try as you might to distance yourself from him, he'll always be a dick and he'll always be your brother.

In the same way, the UFC is inextricably tied to the founding of modern MMA, the growth of the sport internationally and the institutionalization of a common ruleset.


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## mendozahoney (Sep 28, 2009)

I love karate in the movie and in demonstration... 
learning it is a different story.

Good discipline though.


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## chaos1551 (Dec 21, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> I do. Because it's sterile and I like the taste
> 
> (kudos to whoever gets that)


 
Dodgeball.  

I love watching MMA fights.  It's a sport.  We do light contact in my Kenpo school, but I'm sure folks will be willing to step it up when my beginner's butt is tougher and not a spastic threat to them.  I can't wait.


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## xfighter88 (Dec 24, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No! You're correct.
> 
> Silentwarrior, MMA fighters don't fight 'karate' nor do they fight any other style other than Mixed Martial Arts. It's what it says it is.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed, an alternate topic could be "traditional martial arts by themselves have been downgraded" and rightly so.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> No! You're correct.
> 
> Silentwarrior, MMA fighters don't fight 'karate' nor do they fight any other style other than Mixed Martial Arts. It's what it says it is.
> 
> ...



Wrestling and Boxing.........


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> This gets back to my argument that the UFC is not MMA! UFC is only one promotion though admittedly a high profile one. Everything you have quoted is UFC!
> There are a great many other promotions out there and there's a great many MMA fighters too!
> The UFC is a promotion that MMA fighters go on, MMA has been around a lot longer than the UFC. Brazialn juijitsu likewise, I would suggest actually that BJJ was the saving of UFC, it would have run out of steam without it.



Even the sport and general rules of 'MMA' have been around for about 3,000 years, though the Greeks called it Pankration............but wrestling, boxing, kicking and submissions haven't really changed much.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2010)

Sandwich said:


> It's pretty cool to see a talented mixed martial artist who's main style is Karate. Of course, Machida also trains Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Wrestling, and works with muay thai trainers occasionally.
> 
> I see Lyoto keeping his title for awhile, he's a very talented fighter.
> 
> I have to mention though, Georges St. Pierre hasn't trained Karate in 12 years.



Yeah, gonna bet that if Lyoto walked in sporting only his Karate skills, he wouldn't have fared so well...........just sayin'.........no offense to Karate, but lets not call this a repudiation or confirmation of anything since he's not solely demonstrating his Karate skills in the ring, but a whole host of varied 'MMA' disciplines.......with some Karate peppered in for flavor.

It's a lot like using Bas Rutten to validate Tae Kwon Do........yeah, he has a black belt in Tae Kwon Do, but also quite a lot more than that.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Technically, it is a fight.  It just is not a street fight or the same as true self defense (admitting that there is a good deal of crossover with regards to specific techniques).
> 
> Football does not qualify as a fight.  The goal in MMA is to KO, submit, or out fight your opponent and win on points or by decision or whatever they call it in MMA.  All of the skills used are specifically fighting skills.  All skills in football are geared towards the movement of the ball; either facilitating it or preventing it.  The fact that it is physically demanding is about the only commonality that it has with MMA.
> 
> Daniel



That's not entirely accurate.........I would venture the notion that a 280 pound lineman has some pretty decent offensive skills developed simply by slamming in to other 280 pound linemen, or driving a running back in to the ground on the hoof.

That having been said, it's hardly complete training for MMA..........but to say that those skills are solely geared toward moving the ball isn't the whole picture.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2010)

Looking at the last TUF and at most American fighters I can see why you think it's boxing and wrestling but outside America where wrestling isn't common it's very much Judo and/or juijitsu. Stand up is nearly always karate,TKD or MT. I've seen a few styles come through in fights including Aiki and CMA. The UFC likes to turn out a production line of fighters similar to the professional wrestling promotions where they all look and act alike, interchangable but then it is a business.
The American football players didn't show up too well in the last TUF though I'm sure in their own sport they are perfectly adequate. Perhaps they and others may now realise one has to be a martial artist to excel in the ring or cage.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Looking at the last TUF and at most American fighters I can see why you think it's boxing and wrestling but outside America where wrestling isn't common it's very much Judo and/or juijitsu. Stand up is nearly always karate,TKD or MT. I've seen a few styles come through in fights including Aiki and CMA. The UFC likes to turn out a production line of fighters similar to the professional wrestling promotions where they all look and act alike, interchangable but then it is a business.
> The American football players didn't show up too well in the last TUF though I'm sure in their own sport they are perfectly adequate. Perhaps they and others may now realise one has to be a martial artist to excel in the ring or cage.



Wrestling isn't common in Europe?  That surprises me.

I strongly suspect what it really comes down to in the minds of many TMA practioners is wanting a repudiation of TMA East Asian arts (China, Japan, Korea) in the face of Western Arts like boxing and wrestling........there seems to be some offense taken with the fact that many fighting styles are extremely effective without 'masters' and belts and uniforms, and without the made in Japan, China or Korea seals of approval. 

Not to say that those arts from Japan, China or Korea aren't effective, and that there aren't some very good fighters fighting in more or less traditional styles........but they don't now (nor did they ever really have) a lock on effective martial technique.  It's quite ironic that modern MMA is a virtual mirror to ancient Greek combat styles.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2010)

The wrestling we have in Europe is specific usually to regions, we have here Cornish, Cumberland, Scottish, Northumberland, Devon etc all are very different styles and have very different rules. Some are 'stand up' grappling all are skillful but not leading into anything like MMA. There are a few places where Olympic style and freestyle are done but again they stay very much focused on their own and it's little known. With the next Olympics being held here wrestlers will be concentrating on that not looking to compete in other sports. 
Boxing while still a popular spectator sport has gone done in the amount of people participating probably due to it's image of 'brutality' that seems to be out of sync with health and safety etc, it's something we have problems with too. However MAs are seen as 'improving' and character building so membership of clubs here has risen hugely. 
I know of no boxers here who have made the transition to MMA, most of the fighters have a black belt in a TMA, the younger ones (the early teens) however have started from scratch learning MMA as a whole which is good. Most 'older' people have gone from one main style to cross training, to do it all as one if you want to compete is by far the best way.
We've pointed out a great many times to knockers here of MMA that it's roots are in the Greek Pankration and Olympic games etc, I think though that perhaps here, in Europe and Asia perhaps MMA is seen more as a sport/style of its own rather than the way it's looked at in America with the UFC being the commercial promotion and money making business. UFC is show business through and through whereas we see MMA as we do the full contact karate, Judo and boxing comps we have here, as martial arts fights.


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## Omar B (Jan 2, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Looking at the last TUF and at most American fighters I can see why you think it's boxing and wrestling but outside America where wrestling isn't common it's very much Judo and/or juijitsu. Stand up is nearly always karate,TKD or MT. I've seen a few styles come through in fights including Aiki and CMA. The UFC likes to turn out a production line of fighters similar to the professional wrestling promotions where they all look and act alike, interchangable but then it is a business.
> The American football players didn't show up too well in the last TUF though I'm sure in their own sport they are perfectly adequate. Perhaps they and others may now realise one has to be a martial artist to excel in the ring or cage.



Wrestling is not as common here as you might think from every UFC guy knowing it.  I can't remember the last time I saw (if ever) a wrestling gymnasium.  I think it's mostly high school and college ... of if you are an active competitor so I always just assumed it would be the same in Europe.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Wrestling is not as common here as you might think from every UFC guy knowing it. I can't remember the last time I saw (if ever) a wrestling gymnasium. I think it's mostly high school and college ... of if you are an active competitor so I always just assumed it would be the same in Europe.


 
We don't have the school and college wrestling I've seen on a lot of programmes that come from your way. Schools these days aren't really into any kind of competitive sport. There used to be after school cricket, athletics, soccer, rugby etc but now the schools other than the private ones don't have anything like that.

I found the GB Wrestling Association website, they are as I thought focused on the Commonwealth Games and Olympics but the home teams did well in the Commonwealth championships held in India. It's a minority sport here, you have to look for it but it seems when we do it we do it well! In the UK we are very bad at publicising how well we do at things, for example I'm not really interested in ballroom dancing but I was really interested to find out we have world and European champions at it. We should shout when we have champions at anything!

We have the Commonwealth Games coming up ( we hope! as they may be cancelled due to security issues) where there is wrestling this time, it's not always in, Canada leads the medal tables followed by Australia, India and Pakistan. I haven't watched wrestling before but intend to this time if possible.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 3, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Wrestling is not as common here as you might think from every UFC guy knowing it.  I can't remember the last time I saw (if ever) a wrestling gymnasium.  I think it's mostly high school and college ... of if you are an active competitor so I always just assumed it would be the same in Europe.



High school and college wrestling is pretty big around here and to the north in Iowa.


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