# Is Sinawali an intrinsic part of the FMA?



## Holmejr (Jan 22, 2022)

In our system we do not teach sinawali. Our GM, Larry Alcuizar never saw the point of them. He created a system that is what I consider FMA for modern times. GM came out of the Doce Pares/Balintawak systems and knew them well. In Escrido de Alcuizar, we divide stick and knife, teaching the stick (Escrima) progressing to knife (combat judo) and open hand (boxing/knife).
There is a school, close to my home that teaches, what seems to be, every Sinawali known to man. I think they teach them to string along their students for years. My observation and my opinion of course. Anyway, what say you? Sinawali necessary? Or just fun?


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## Mider (Jan 22, 2022)

Its just a training drill. Eventually like your GM likely understood you have to pressure test this stuff.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 23, 2022)

Holmejr said:


> In our system we do not teach sinawali. Our GM, Larry Alcuizar never saw the point of them. He created a system that is what I consider FMA for modern times. GM came out of the Doce Pares/Balintawak systems and knew them well. In Escrido de Alcuizar, we divide stick and knife, teaching the stick (Escrima) progressing to knife (combat judo) and open hand (boxing/knife).
> There is a school, close to my home that teaches, what seems to be, every Sinawali known to man. I think they teach them to string along their students for years. My observation and my opinion of course. Anyway, what say you? Sinawali necessary? Or just fun?



Prior to WWII and formation of Balintawak Post WWII, GM Anciong Bacon would go out for fights and Doring Saavedra would go out for demonstrations. Bacon was not a fan of patterns in general. 
(* Note: Not a slight to the Grouping Methodology that his Students used and many are popular today. *)

GM Remy A Presas who formed Modern Arnis uses Sinawalis and had a major influence from Balintawak from Bacon et al and has them. 
Some use them just for warm up. 
Some use them to create a box to insert other techniques into, as this gives the players a reference to go step back into once they step out for the technique in question. 

Is it required? No
Do many use them and prosper from their training? Yes.


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## Blindside (Jan 23, 2022)

I generally don't like sinawali for the sake of sinawali, some will say that they are for developing coordination and I full agree with that, I just want to be able to use them for coordination and have functional fighting technique(s) out of those same patterns.  So the student gets the benefit of the coordination and how it translates over to the fight.   So I have something like this for all of the patterns that I teach.


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## jks9199 (Jan 24, 2022)

Outsider looking in here... but I think sinawali is a great example of something I've seen across various styles, where a drill or exercise takes on a life of its own beyond the original and actual purpose, and becomes a thing all by itself.  My teacher would call it "majoring in the minors."  A drill or an exercise meant to teach a particular skill or serve a specific purpose ends up getting blown up way beyond that purpose.  I've seen sinawali become a huge training focus for people -- almost to the exclusion of the things that the principles are supposed to enable.  Rolling in BJJ, or randori in judo, or sparring in, well, lots of arts are other examples.  Each is meant to be a tool to develop necessary and important attributes, but each can be seen in some places to have really run off into it's own thing, to the neglect of other aspects of the art.


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## geezer (Jan 29, 2022)

A long time ago, at least a dozen years or so back, I attended an open seminar given by Jeff Ward that focused on training long complex _sinawalli_ drills. See for yourself:






Well, maybe it's just my add acting up, or premature dementia?...but I just don't learn well that way. Too much memorization. Standing in one place doing long choreographed sequences. So, speaking for myself, I really didn't get much that I could use out of that seminar. 

 In my training coming out of _Latosa Escrima_ and Torres DTE, we favor direct and functional over long memorized patterns. One of my old coaches, Jeff LaTorre also had experience in _Pekiti_, and his approach was also more ._..pragmatic._

So in my group we do play with some basic _sinawalli _patterns, _equis-equis_, _four count _and _six count _figure-eights ...but then we break them down into simple empty hand and stick combinations, spending time to figure out how to set some one up so you can actually use it ...more like a boxer learning and applying combos I guess.

...or more like _Lamont's_ approach above. He moves differently than I do (I'd be the guy with the sticks-up guard) but you can see how he makes it work.


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## geezer (Jan 29, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> Outsider looking in here... but I think sinawali is a great example of something I've seen across various styles, where* a drill or exercise takes on a life of its own beyond the original and actual purpose,* and becomes a thing all by itself.  My teacher would call it "majoring in the minors."  A drill or an exercise meant to teach a particular skill or serve a specific purpose ends up getting blown up way beyond that purpose.  I've seen sinawali become a huge training focus for people -- almost to the exclusion of the things that the principles are supposed to enable.  Rolling in BJJ, or randori in judo, or sparring in, well, lots of arts are other examples.  Each is meant to be a tool to develop necessary and important attributes, but each can be seen in some places to have really run off into it's own thing, to the neglect of other aspects of the art.


That's _Chi-Sau_ for ya in Wing Chun. A great drill that has gotten disproportionate emphasis until that's all there is for some people!


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## geezer (Jan 30, 2022)

geezer said:


> A long time ago, at least a dozen years or so back, I attended an open seminar given by Jeff Ward that focused on training long complex _sinawalli_ drills...


Whoops! I meant _Jon Ward._ Excuse my clumsy typing.


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## punisher73 (Jan 31, 2022)

From my VERY limited understanding.  As FMA's have become more popular there has been a lot more "cross pollination" with each other so that there is more in common with each other.  Historically, there is disagreement where Sinawali originally came from (indigenous vs. Spanish influence of sword/dagger).  But, even if a system didn't have it originally, it has probably been incorporated because that is what people think FMA is or what they want out of FMA or more likely that instructor found value in it and wanted to use it.


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## EskrimaFan (Feb 1, 2022)

Hi...

I'm new here and I love FMA. 

The style I train in we don't have siniwali like shown above.


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## Blindside (Feb 1, 2022)

EskrimaFan said:


> Hi...
> 
> I'm new here and I love FMA.
> 
> The style I train in we don't have siniwali like shown above.


Welcome! What style do you study?


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## EskrimaFan (Feb 1, 2022)

Blindside said:


> Welcome! What style do you study?



Thanks for the welcome, I study De Campo 1-2-3 Original.


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## geezer (Feb 1, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> From my VERY limited understanding.  As FMA's have become more popular there has been a lot more "cross pollination" with each other so that there is more in common with each other.  Historically, there is disagreement where Sinawali originally came from (indigenous vs. Spanish influence of sword/dagger).  But, even if a system didn't have it originally, it has probably been incorporated because that is what people think FMA is or what they want out of FMA or more likely that instructor found value in it and wanted to use it.


Well at least locally, the FMA community does mix a lot more than some other MA groups.


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## Argus (May 1, 2022)

geezer said:


> A long time ago, at least a dozen years or so back, I attended an open seminar given by Jeff Ward that focused on training long complex _sinawalli_ drills. See for yourself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is also my problem. For a while I was training Modern Arnis which is very much this way.

Actually, I learned a lot from Modern Arnis. There's a lot of good basic material there and I learned a lot of Sinawali's, techniques, disarms, and things I didn't know. But everything is taught in some kind of long choreographed sequence that requires a lot of memorization, which I can't help but feel is more of an obstacle to my learning than anything.

Then again, maybe it all helped my coordination and mental agility involving "pretzel" sequences some (ie, if I do this, then this, then I'll be set up for a back hand rather than a fore hand and can go into this... because if not the drill breaks down and how did I get here? -- kind of thing) . I don't know. I definitely feel all the Sinawali has helped my coordination, especially involving two sticks.

Anyway, the exact opposite is something like Kali Ilustrisimo which is much more Wing Chun esque -- just move from where the hands are and flow naturally into the most direct attack/counter. No patterns/sequences. I learn better this way.


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## Finlay (May 22, 2022)

Largely it depends in the system and teacher. A few schools I have seen seem to have padded their curriculum with eskrima, from what I have seen when this happens it is mainly sinawali that they teach.. maybe because it looks cool and is relatively easy to teach to groups.

Sinawali in its self is similar to kata/patterns/forms in other martial arts. There to practice and remember techniques but the techniques and coordition but the techquiens should eventually be taken out and applied in some way.

I don't enjoy long drills as it seems more of a test of memory rather than anything else.


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## geezer (May 28, 2022)

Finlay said:


> I don't enjoy long drills as it seems more of a test of memory rather than anything else.


_Yes!_ What you said^^^^. 

...And I thought it was just me with my aging memory


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## Christopher Adamchek (May 29, 2022)

We have some basic sinawalli with double stick but its not a big focus


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