# Changing or Developing your own Art.....



## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2004)

Many discussions have been started regarding those that have started new  "systems" and defending their positions with such statements as "[font=Verdana, Times New Roman, Helvetica]Take what works and leave the  rest."   Some even go as far as stating ...  "That's what Chow, Emperado, and  Parker did". 

Well, I hate to break it to ya's ...... but that's NOT what  these men did (first off it was Bruce Lee that made that statement)!    

K.S. Chow was a well known and documented "fighter" *prior  *and *after* any possible influence from Mitose.  Chow was a hard core  physical trainer (that was one of his "secrets"), which in those days was the  only way to get tough.  He also was extremely fast which meant he was in tune  with physical alignments and such.  

A. Emperado was one that  survived that training, but also saw the benefits of "blending" or cross  training which went on to become the basis for Ka Ju Ken Bo.  (*Ka*rate  *Ju*do, *Ke*npo *Bo*xing).  Utilizing the basic rigorous training  of Chows but yet expanding upon other aspects of physical combat.

Ed  Parker came up under the same training as Emperado under Chow, but took a  slightly different approach.  Rather than blending several different arts, he  _*re-structured*_/_*engineered*_  from the  basics up...an entire system!

Sure, I know basics are generically basics  but Ed Parker (at the time) re-defined and/or the methods of execution of these  basics as well as organizing/creating new material into a logical, pragmatic and  systematized curriculum complete with unique self defense techniques, forms,  sets, freestyle exercises, and a host of other "drills" to teach, train, and  engrain the system so that ultimately we can formulate on the spot or react  extemporaneously when necessary.

I can site many new areas of Kenpo that  have come about post 50's!  

Today these so called "New System  Developers" are not even coming close to developing a new system, but  rather merely changing the names or orders of already established material (much  of which they most likely don't understand in depth anyway) and/or deleting  critical portions of the Art due to their lack of knowledge and understanding.   

To place themselves on the same level as these proven Individuals is  just plain wrong.   Give credit where credit is due, at least say that this is  your "version" of a system based upon XYZ's work.

Just my point of  view...... [/font][font=Verdana, Times New Roman, Helvetica]

 :asian:


[/font]


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## dubljay (Jun 19, 2004)

I agree with you goldendragon7.  I believe it was 'Huk' Planas that said there are no "new" moves only different ending variations.  Meaning there are only a certain number of ways you can enter into a defense against a kick, punch, grab, or any attack.  

Any cutting of material will most likely violate the rules and principles of AK, i.e.  economy of motion or the 180 principle (one hand guarding high/low, left/right, in/out ect.)  Through extensive practice you may be able to get it to work efectivally for you, however if you teach it to someone else it may not fit their body mechanics and leave them open to get hurt.

This is why tayloring is a big part of AK, there is the basic "book" version of a technique, however when it comes time to practice it on a body you may have to adjust weapons and targest to fit your opponent and yourself.

Thats my opinion and I could be wrong.

-Josh-


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## pete (Jun 19, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Today these so called "New System Developers" are not even coming close to developing a new system



come on, that's the same kind of traditionalist nonsense that keeps artists of a different medium from proper recognition (and standard of living) while they are alive.  keep an open mind and be more accepting of change and innovation, even if slight or subtle, you may find something rewarding...



> Just my point of view...



yep, everybody's got one...


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> Come on, that's the same kind of traditionalist nonsense that keeps artists of a different medium from proper recognition (and standard of living) while they are alive.


 LOL, well if its nonsense to you....... have fun in your trough.  

I beg  to differ.    Artists and true practitioners can and do receive credit for what  they discover or develop but when it comes to cashing in on someone else's prior  ideas or work, that's a different matter altogether.



			
				pete said:
			
		

> Keep  an open mind and be more accepting of change and innovation, even if slight or  subtle, you may find something rewarding...


LOL, well since  you probably don't know me........  I do have an open mind, except when it comes  to false statements and false promoting of ones self at others expense.   Innovation whether slight or subtle is a good thing but remember your roots and  where you came from and give credit where credit is due then take off on your  pony from there.

 :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jun 19, 2004)

Good point!  I went to a seminar and the instructor was teaching "his own" drills, unique to himself ... funny, I have seen them elsewhere, just slightly rearranged.

 Ah well ... to each his own.  Is that what makes a system new or unique?

 -Michael


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## RCastillo (Jun 19, 2004)

I hate to agree with the "High Kenpo Icon of The Desert" but what else can someone do? The wheel cannot be reinvented, just improved. But even then some think the wheel is outdated, and it aint. :idunno:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> I hate to agree with the "High Kenpo Icon of The Desert".


 Why is that such a bad thing..........LOL  {who loves ya baby}



			
				RCastillo said:
			
		

> What else can someone do?


 Actually, quite a lot.  Learn the base system, basics, forms, sets, concepts principles, (all the Kenpo Tools) and then expand upon the ideal with the what if, ....... pass on this treasure to the next generation minus all the political nonsense (historically explain truthfully how and why things happened however) and you have done a great service to Kenpo.



			
				RCastillo said:
			
		

> The wheel cannot be reinvented, just improved.


 Zackly!!!!!!!!  There is no need to *re-invent* anything that is well done.  To  learn American Kenpo correctly to a high degree of *understanding* and *skill* are just _*Polish*_ to the already _well engineered wheel_.



			
				RCastillo said:
			
		

> But even then, some think the wheel is outdated, and it aint. :idunno:


 Well, that would depend on exactly what version of the _*"Wheel"*_ you are talking about.   

 Some are wagon wheels, yet others are steel rims, depends on what era of wheel you are discussing.  Keeping in mind however, both are useful and have a purpose.

 :asian:


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## Seig (Jun 19, 2004)

Mr C et al.,

      I think the problem goes even deeper than that. In the past 10 years or so, the internet has become more prolific than ever. Just 10 years ago, someone could claim to create something that they did not, or to have trained with someone they did not, and it was difficult to prove or disprove their claims. 
     Many of the people doing these things have either delusions of grandeur, or believe the public to be stupid. On the latter, I tend to agree with them. However, stupidity is often confused with ignorance. 
     As we all know, motion is supposed to be fluid and dynamic, and there are a finite number of ways a human being can move. There is not a finite number of ways a human can think or train. As I have been told many times, regardless of what you train in, that's what you are doing, training. Hopefully you are being trained to move and think correctly.
     In our curriculum  there is most usually a spot in a drill sequence that says, "innovate". That is training to think, and conceivably come up with a new drill or idea. Being able to come up with new ideas or drills based solely on someone else's work is not innovating a new art.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 20, 2004)

Even when I think I have found something "new", or fit and teach it in a paradigm that is a bit different from anything I have heard before, I cannot imagine that the material itself is new, not with thousands of years of martial arts in the world.  Maybe some things are "rediscovered", but I doubt that even.  Probably somewhere in the world, someone is practicing or teaching what you are, maybe with a twist, maybe not.  That is one of the many tragic problems since Mr. Parker's death ... we have lost the C & C (Command and Control) for Kenpo.  Even if Mr. Parker was no longer teaching something, he was probably aware of what was being taught, where, and by whom ... even if he had moved on. 

 It's all a conundrum to me.  Just keep on practicing and challenging yourself to continue the intellectual side with the physical, not that you have to, but that is a part of Mr. Parker's art.

 -Michael


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## Brother John (Jun 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Today these so called "New System  Developers" are not even coming close to developing a new system, but  rather merely changing the names or orders of already established material (much  of which they most likely don't understand in depth anyway) and/or deleting  critical portions of the Art due to their lack of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> To place themselves on the same level as these proven Individuals is  just plain wrong.   Give credit where credit is due, at least say that this is  your "version" of a system based upon XYZ's work.



Who do you think these "New System Developers" that don't give credit where credit is due are?
Just curious as to what touched off this opinion thread again. Seems to be a topic you feel strongly about.

Your Brother
John


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Who do you think these "New System Developers" that don't give credit where credit is due are?
> Just curious as to what touched off this opinion thread again. Seems to be a topic you feel strongly about.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 Go back and read the very first post to the thread.


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## pete (Jun 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> LOL, well if its nonsense to you....... have fun in your trough.



LOL! i know not of these _troughs_ of which you speak, perhaps you can elaborate from your experience...



> LOL, well since you probably don't know me........



nor you, i! (LOL again, man are we having some fun!)



> I do have an open mind, except when it comes to false statements and false promoting of ones self at others expense.  Innovation whether slight or subtle is a good thing but remember your roots and where you came from and give credit where credit is due then take off on your pony from there.



Well, then you'd probably notice some good people doing some good things today, just as parker, chow, lee did 30-40 years ago.   these gentlemen you mentioned, as great and well respected as they may have been, are but points on a continuum which started long before their existence and goes on after their time on this earth is through.

i must say that i wholeheartedly agree with your point about remembering your roots and giving credit where due.  without that, there is a lack of integrity, humility, and credibility.  

i continue to train in american kenpo, and respect the life's work of ed parker, who interestingly enough published infinite insights series without a bibliography or cited works, and short on references to his sources of information.  but, i trust mr parker's integrity, humility and credibility and contend that his flame will burn even brighter as new masters further develop the art of kenpo... and the continuum continues...

pete.


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## Rainman (Jun 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Many discussions have been started regarding those that have started new  "systems" and defending their positions with such statements as "[font=Verdana, Times New Roman, Helvetica]Take what works and leave the  rest."   Some even go as far as stating ...  "That's what Chow, Emperado, and  Parker did".
> 
> Well, I hate to break it to ya's ...... but that's NOT what  these men did (first off it was Bruce Lee that made that statement)!
> 
> ...



Well, that is a tough call... I see these things happening (just picked up a new mag)  and I don't know what to think.  I like what the guys do with the sport aspect of the full contact realm.  I would like to say that self defence has room for growth but I believe it is individual growth and that the systems of Kaju, AK, and that of Chow are really pretty damn good arts.   The thing is is finding the talented teachers.  Mr. Rainey and my teacher Sumdumguy really enlightened me this weekend.  I also saw clips of 
Tommy Chavies, Doc Chapel and Steve Mohamed... These guys are sooooo good.  I mean jesus- visit them and get better.  They all teach AK, none of them renamed their perspectives, it is Kenpo to them as far as I know. Concepts, theories and principles allow an idividual to do some amazing things as far as AK goes.   

I dunno, I also met Mr. Dave Thompson... I was really impressed at what a smooth teacher he is.  These people are so different but still share the common bonds of AK.  A real eye opener for me.  If these gentlemen don't need to rename what they do why does anyone else?   

I would also like to say congratulations to my little brother Mr. Hagler who was tested and promoted to 1st degree black belt on June 19th in Boney Lake WA.   artyon:


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## alphamartial (Jun 20, 2004)

Hi,

Do you have any contact info for the school in Bonney Lake, WA? I'm in Seattle and am always interested in finding good Kenpo people nearby. 

Thanks in advance,
Chris H.

PS: Congrats to your little brother!


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## Brother John (Jun 21, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Go back and read the very first post to the thread.


_I did _ and it _didn't_ say who you feel these people are. That's why I was asking.  
What did I overlook in that first post?
_Thanks_

Your Brother
John


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## sumdumguy (Jun 21, 2004)

There are some very good points on this post.
Mr. C I have to agree with you first off, but you didn't mention anyone? Not that it matters to me... I can probably guess a couple of people and will do good to keep that to myself... 

    Just because someone is doing great things in the "Kenpo" system, doesn't mean that they are creating anything new. I believe Mr. Billing and Mr. C. already stated that though.

In addition to Congratulating Mr. Hagler on his promotion to Black Belt, I would also like to say Congratulations to "Rainman" on his belt level promotion.

     There are many people doing many great things in the arts, not just kenpo, we can call them innovative or creative or what ever we like. The reality is, until they design and create a system from the ground up minus the familiar sequences, katas, and drills of the "original" system they study, there is no "new" system. Just innovations and re-discoveries of things forgotten, or overlooked previousley. 
just my humble opinion. :asian: 

p.s. pm me for BonneyLake location.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 21, 2004)

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> You didn't mention  anyone?


No I didn't and won't. That is not the point. They know who they are. It's just the fact that those that herald themselves as *founders,* act as if they created their material... when in fact if you look a little closer, you will find that not to be the case. That's all.



			
				sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Just because someone is doing great things in their Art, "Kenpo" or any other system, doesn't mean that they are creating anything new. We can call them innovative or creative or what ever we like. The reality is, until they design and create a system from the  ground up *minus *the familiar sequences, katas, and drills of the  *"original" system"* they study, there is _*NO*_ "new system".   Just possible innovations and  re-discoveries.


Yes, I agree.  Expansion of base  material {and yes I realize that there are quite a few, doing many good things} is always welcomed and applauded but that's not what I'm referring to. 


 And ..... Yes, Congratulations to Mr. Hagler  and to "Rainman" on their promotions. :asian:


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## sumdumguy (Jun 21, 2004)

Didn't you read the part were I said " I agree with you"? The rest of it was just babbling on my part and not really meant to be for you....
HMMM?


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 21, 2004)

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Didn't you read the part were I said " I agree with you"? The rest of it was just babbling on my part and not really meant to be for you....
> HMMM?


 LOL, yes I saw that, not contesting any of what you said just expanding on it a bit more......  I didn't take it as a slight from you in any way

 :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 21, 2004)

GD7...

When I do teach, I teach an amalgamation of Kenpo (& a couple offshoots), Japanese Judo & Jujutsu, BJJ, JKD modified kick-boxing, and Thai. I don't claim it as my invention, or as anythig new.  In fact, I'll make it a point to say, "this is from AK"...or..."this is from Judo", etc.

I haven't magically conferred a new rank on myself (although Dr. Dave, Super-Master does have a unique ring to it), nor do I claim to be the fountainhead of all knowledge from which this information sprung.  Just the source for this class, citing references as I go (old habit from too many research papers).

Am I, by not being a purist, one of the reprehensible founders, or merely someone sharing what he's learned along the way, to the best of his limited ability to recall it? (a diminished capacity to which I also frequently admit to students).

I'm not saying this to be antagonistic, btw.  Just wondering if I managed to become one of "them" when I wasn't looking.

Regards,

Dave


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 21, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> GD7...
> 
> When I do teach, I teach an  amalgamation of Kenpo (& a couple offshoots), Japanese Judo & Jujutsu,  BJJ, JKD modified kick-boxing, and Thai. I don't claim it as my invention, or as  anything new. In fact, I'll make it a point to say, "this is from  AK"...or..."this is from Judo", etc.
> Dave


 From what you state,  you are being honest and truthful not trying to take credit from someone else's  works and giving credit where credit is due.



			
				Kembudo-Kai  Kempoka said:
			
		

> I haven't magically conferred a new rank on myself (although Dr. Dave, Super-Master does have a unique ring to it),  nor do I claim to be the fountainhead of all knowledge from which this  information sprung. Just the source for this class, citing references as I go  (old habit from too many research papers).
> Dave


 Again,  commendable and not what I'm talking about.




			
				Kembudo-Kai  Kempoka said:
			
		

> Am I, by not being a purist, one of the reprehensible founders, or  merely someone sharing what he's learned along the way, to the best of his  limited ability to recall it? (a diminished capacity to which I also frequently  admit to students).
> Dave


 From what you state...... you are  safe......LOL expanding and coming up with new ideas or drills is what we are  suppose to do.  Please continue along your path and enrich the  Art.



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I'm not saying this to be  antagonistic, btw. Just wondering if I managed to become one of "them" when I  wasn't looking.
> Dave


 LOL, well, one of "them" on which side of  the coin......LOL  if you are talking about those that mislead folks ........ I  would say NO, you blew it...... we can crack crab together.

 :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 21, 2004)

Grazie. One must remain concerned about such things, yes?


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## pete (Jun 21, 2004)

> When I do teach, I teach an amalgamation of Kenpo (& a couple offshoots), Japanese Judo & Jujutsu, BJJ, JKD modified kick-boxing, and Thai. I don't claim it as my invention, or as anythig new. In fact, I'll make it a point to say, "this is from AK"...or..."this is from Judo", etc. - Kembudo-Kai Kempoka



looks like you've earned your spot on the continuum~


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 22, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Grazie. One must remain concerned about such things, yes?


  I guess..... If such things concern you...   :idunno:


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## OC Kid (Jun 22, 2004)

Ok now I have a question, along the lines of this thread.
I was orginally ranked in a Japanese system. But shortly after that I moved 3 states away. I started traning in kempo (epak and tracys at the same time) not necessarily to get a rank but I loved the training and I liked to fight tournments and kickboxing. I also attended the basics classes and learned the basics. but I never really learned the forms ect. I always belonged to the japanese association. 

 So now Im teaching M/A, I use the japanese basics along with the kempo and the japanese forms, my self defense is based on kempo but no set techniques but simular movements ( I really like the power and focus of them) and due to changes in the japanese association, My instructor and the master retireing along with a lot of the guys I came up through the ranks with and the new master of the system I dont really care for ( call it a lack of respect for him) and so basically there all new people who I dont really know and I dont live near them Im 3 states away. I joined a loose association made of people of different arts who are local and have recongnized me and I have trained with in one of the kempo schools so they know me and my ability.

So am I developing my own art?

 Am I dissing my Instructor?

Is this system Im teaching considered MMA (I also incorporate Muay Thai training)?

Is my linage in tack meaning would I be considered a legitimate school because I broke away but I can trace my history to my instructors ?

Though rather than calling it after the "japanese system name or OC Kids kempo" Im choosing to call it Christian Martial Arts Academy something to that effect. Would I be considered a Mc Dojo if I opened up my own school?

just curious.


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## Michael Billings (Jun 22, 2004)

Definitly NOT a McDojo based on what you teach. That is more a business model based on maximizing, to the point of using and abusing your students, while the product being turned out is not so good. (my definition only)

 The rest is up to you. The name has nothing to do with it, it sounds like you are giving credit to your instructors ... that is good. It is OK to disaffiliate due to whatever reason, with an association, that does not mean you are creating your own ART, you can even start your own organization without claiming to be founding a "new system". 

 So long as you are honest in your approach, credit the Kenpo with being Kenpo, distinguish the Kickboxing as coming from Muay Thai, etc., there is no dishonesty in terms of what you are offering, so it depends on how you package and market yourself, and you have just told us what you are doing. You may be combining things from Japanese, Thai, American or Chinese Kenpo ... but to me, this does not make a new system. Rather you are offering your students the opportunity to train with an instructor who is well rounded in several Arts. That is more honest than saying "I created THIS ... and THIS IS GOOD!". 

 I teach Kenpo, but that does not mean I do not teach some kickboxing drills on the bag, or some lock-flow from Larry Hartsel, or some pressure point application from SL-4 or Shen Chuan. I still am a Kenpo-Man and everything else stems from that base, or is part of Kenpo that I had just not been exposed to. I learn something at a seminar I had never seen as part of Kenpo, and was pressure point or akijitsu related, then I hear Mr. Sepulveda talk about Mr. Parker trying the same thing on him. 

  Keep it honest, keep it real and give credit where credit is due.  
  -Michael


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## pete (Jun 22, 2004)

> So now Im teaching M/A, I use the japanese basics along with the kempo and the japanese forms, my self defense is based on kempo but no set techniques but simular movements -OC Kid



EP would be proud... its sunds just like what he did~


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## Brother John (Jun 22, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> To place themselves on the same level as these proven Individuals is  just plain wrong.   Give credit where credit is due, at least say that this is  your "version" of a system based upon XYZ's work.
> 
> [/size][/font]



After thinking about it, I'd say that this is the central issue in my eyes. 
I'd have to think that anyone who didn't give credit to their instructor(s) for what was given to them would pretty much be schmucks with a real character deficit.

As Mr. Mills wrote in the AKKI yellow belt manual, "When you drink the water, remember the spring from which it came."
When I think of the veneration with which Mr. Mills speaks of his own instructor and mentor, it humbles me. I'd bet he'd agree with you as well.

Your Brother
John


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 22, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'd have to think that anyone who didn't give credit to their instructor(s) for what was given to them would pretty much be schmucks with a real character deficit.


 Yep!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 22, 2004)

I would like to take this opportunity to announce that I have created my own art:  It is called To-Fu.  It contains absolutely no meat.


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## jeffkyle (Jun 22, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I would like to take this opportunity to announce that I have created my own art:  It is called To-Fu.  It contains absolutely no meat.



Would that be vegetable MA?  Or vegatarian MA?


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 22, 2004)

It is a soft style.  Quite jiggly in fact. %-}


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## OC Kid (Jun 22, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Definitly NOT a McDojo based on what you teach. That is more a business model based on maximizing, to the point of using and abusing your students, while the product being turned out is not so good. (my definition only)
> 
> The rest is up to you. The name has nothing to do with it, it sounds like you are giving credit to your instructors ... that is good. It is OK to disaffiliate due to whatever reason, with an association, that does not mean you are creating your own ART, you can even start your own organization without claiming to be founding a "new system".
> 
> ...


Thank you Mike and Thank you also Pete. That is kind of what I was thinking. But I needed to hear a unbiased opinion. I was told the same thing from M/A freinds but its nice to get it reinforced here.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 23, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> Thank you Mike and Thank you also Pete. That is kind of what I was thinking. But I needed to hear a unbiased opinion. I was told the same thing from M/A freinds but its nice to get it reinforced here.


I like the premise...you may want to research the name, particularly in your demographic region.  I remember a CMAA offering association memberships in the back of Black Belt, like, 20 years ago?  Also, in your area, there have been a couple of christian kenpoka who have started AK or MMA training centers. Dave Poole (sp?) started one out of Calvary way back, and Chris Romero also did a bit later. Don't know the extent to which they're still active, but I'd bet a dime and a donut Mr. White does. Anyways, it's worth the asking.

Regards,

Dr. Dave


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## OC Kid (Jun 23, 2004)

Yea I know Chris very well He started the Thunder Center. It was a very good place for training. He was a very good instructor. He is now doing BJJ and has for quite a while. I think Dave is still teaching at Calvary in Costa Mesa. I also trained with Mr White. I will stop by his school this Sat. I still work out with him on the weekends. Right now however Im starting a summer program at the local community center for disadvantaged children. It will be a while before I get this thing going and it will be out of State. probably Washington St.


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