# Can i do multiple martial arts at the same time???? Please help



## MouldyFish (Mar 24, 2022)

Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....

Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...


Any feedback is much appreciated as this is so frustrating to deal with...

Thanks a lot everyone


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 24, 2022)

This really depends on you. Some people have issues with that, particularly with two styles close together. Some are able to separate and say (mentally/physiologically): okay, in this style I put my foot at x angle in roundhouse, in that style I do y angle. 

I personally have a lot of trouble with that; once my body knows what it wants to do, it knows. And I can change it, but not every other day. Also feels like a bit of wasting time training. I do know people that have done it without any issues though.

That said, I don't really understand your issue. Most karate styles have the same kicks as most tkd styles, to my knowledge. Possibly not some of the tricking (ie: jumping 480 hook kick), but that's not guaranteed in tkd as well.

If you feel like you're not getting enough practice time in the dojo on kicks, that's something to either request more of, have private lessons to work on your technique if you're having specific issues, or (most likely) practice more on your own time.


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## Steve (Mar 24, 2022)

Absolutely.  Only limitation is your time and your money.


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## Gyuki (Mar 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This really depends on you. Some people have issues with that, particularly with two styles close together. Some are able to separate and say (mentally/physiologically): okay, in this style I put my foot at x angle in roundhouse, in that style I do y angle.
> 
> I personally have a lot of trouble with that; once my body knows what it wants to do, it knows. And I can change it, but not every other day. Also feels like a bit of wasting time training. I do know people that have done it without any issues though.
> 
> ...


For me it's to the point that once I am satisfied and natural in a way it is very hard to convince my body to do otherwise. I can and will do it for kihon or kata reasons but when I go back to sparring my body knows ehat to do.
I find it counterproductive to change minute details especially if the principle behind the movement/source of and energy transfer are the same. 

I can appreciate various types of roundhouse as an exemple:
The snapping one
The one with more follow trough as in Muai Thai
The diagonal one aimed at liver as in Savate
The one aimed downwards towards the leg
Etc etc but variations of each may become overkill for my little memory to retain and be able to use efficiently in actual combat/sparring...

As I wish to focus my practice in pragmatism and self defense, I know for me 2 arts that are "similar" would not be useful but indeed confusing. 

I can understand the dilemma however as sometimes it may be tempting to try something else for various reasons... I am just more the kind of person who will leave one to do another completely. 
I am not the best learner maybe.


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## dancingalone (Mar 24, 2022)

The key is if you have a sensei that is more intent on passing on a STYLE rather than teaching students.  If that is the case, I think having occasional technical slips between one style and another can be a problem.  If not, enjoy the cross-training.  More training with excellent instruction is only good in my opinion if you can handle it.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 24, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


I personally wouldn't  do it. I've been practicing and teaching my version of American Kenpo since 1978. I studied Tracy Kenpo to black and then American Kenpo to black. I still teach and write books.on my version of American Kenpo.  
   I personally would not take  more than one art at a time. But maybe you can do it. I believe that to really learn a martial art, that one should devote their attention 100% and not split their attention between two or more arts. I do not think it would be beneficial in many ways. But, that's just my opinion for what it's worth.
Good luck!


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I personally wouldn't  do it. I've been practicing and teaching my version of American Kenpo since 1978. I studied Tracy Kenpo to black and then American Kenpo to black. I still teach and write books.on my version of American Kenpo.
> I personally would not take  more than one art at a time. But maybe you can do it. I believe that to really learn a martial art, that one should devote their attention 100% and not split their attention between two or more arts. I do not think it would be beneficial in many ways. But, that's just my opinion for what it's worth.
> Good luck!


Or they can just promote themselves to 10th Dan, like you did. 🤣


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


If you're aware of the differences in the kicks, it should be okay. 

When I first trained, me and some of the fellas would be at the boxing gym all morning and in the dojo all night. Sure was fun.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2022)

The only real limit is your available time and money. Now, it's likely that training multiple arts will mean slower progress in each compared to focusing on just one. But how much that matters, if at all, is your business.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 24, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or they can just promote themselves to 10th Dan, like you did. 🤣


OK, let  me explain... again. I have a certificate for 5th degree. I have over the years, created techniques up to 10th degree. I consider myself a 10th degree in knowledge. The only reason I would want a certificate is to be able to teach at certain places. For example, I taught for the city and they required a certificate. I'm sorry this bothers you a  lot. You should consider the knowledge a person has and not a piece of paper. This is the last time I will try to explain it to you. You have a good life.
Sifu


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2022)

The more grounded you are in one art, the easier it is to incorporate a similar art.  However, there is no "rule" on what you can or can't do.  You could start both on the same day, or only do one art for your entire life.  

With only a year in Karate, my *recommendation *would be to stick with it, and if you want to add another art, add something completely different (like wrestling).  If you want to argue with me about it and do TKD instead, then skip the arguing and do it.


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## drop bear (Mar 24, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The only real limit is your available time and money. Now, it's likely that training multiple arts will mean slower progress in each compared to focusing on just one. But how much that matters, if at all, is your business.



If the choice is between doing another TKD class and doing a karate class. Then yeah.

If it is between karate class and desperate housewives then not so much.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> If the choice is between doing another TKD class and doing a karate class. Then yeah.
> 
> If it is between karate class and desperate housewives then not so much.


I don't know... some of those "reality" shows will make you want to kick someone...


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 24, 2022)

What's the difference in knowledge between 5th, 9th, and 10th degree again? 

Asking for a friend.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 24, 2022)

You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Anything that can help you to grow tall is good.

First you need to understand how to grow tall.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Anything that can help you to grow tall is good.
> 
> First you need to understand how to grow tall.


You know people don't get to pick their DNA, right?
Your DNA determines your potential height. Things such as diet, hormones, etc can prevent you from reaching that potential height, but nothing you can do (short of some fairly drastic surgery) is going to make you surpass that height.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You know people don't get to pick their DNA, right?
> Your DNA determines your potential height. Things such as diet, hormones, etc can prevent you from reaching that potential height, but nothing you can do (short of some fairly drastic surgery) is going to make you surpass that height.


High heels.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> High heels.


Don't actually change your height any more than jumping up in the air.
They do make your legs and butt look good though.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Anything that can help you to grow tall is good.
> 
> First you need to understand how to grow tall.



If you want to grow tall play basketball. Those guys are huge.


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## MouldyFish (Mar 25, 2022)

Well to anyone that sees this… thank you very much for all your replies I found them very helpful… I have decided not to start TKD, but am still on the look out for a possible 2nd art for when I get to a decent belt in karate (I will carry on karate as well as the other art)…. Any suggestions on what is a good style to add to karate???


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 25, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Any suggestions on what is a good style to add to karate???


Wrestling, Chinese wrestling, Judo.

The day that you train Karate as the way you train the grappling art, the day that you may understand the term "train as you fight".


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## Buka (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What's the difference in knowledge between 5th, 9th, and 10th degree again?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


Most of my friends live on the East coast, so I know they were done with work for the day. I called a 10th Degree and a 5th Degree a couple minutes ago (different Arts) and asked that question. (I don't know anyone who is currently a 9th)

They laughed, told me to go fluff myself and then we jabbered about other things, mostly their kids.

Sorry, but, hey, I gave it a shot.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What's the difference in knowledge between 5th, 9th, and 10th degree again?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


I believe the difference is the contribution to MA. For example,

- publish MA book.
- offer MA workshop.
- train MA team.
- sponsor MA tournament.
- invent new MA technique.
- ...


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe the difference is the contribution to MA. For example,
> 
> - publish MA book.
> - offer MA workshop.
> ...


If that's true, then those guys with 20 black belts must be pretty special.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 25, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


You can learn many arts poorly or one art well. Decide.


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## Steve (Mar 25, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You can learn many arts poorly or one art well. Decide.


And that, my friends, is a beautiful example of a false dilemma fallacy in the wild.  Sometimes referred to as parent logic.  “You get to choose the vegetable tonight!  Yay.  Do you want broccoli or spinach?”


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 26, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Well to anyone that sees this… thank you very much for all your replies I found them very helpful… I have decided not to start TKD, but am still on the look out for a possible 2nd art for when I get to a decent belt in karate (I will carry on karate as well as the other art)…. Any suggestions on what is a good style to add to karate???


Assuming your karate school is like most and focuses primarily on striking; if you were to add an art I'd recommend a grappling style (BJJ or judo). 

I'd also recommend trying out climbing if theirs a climbing gym near you-that builds muscle almost perfectly for MA.


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## Holmejr (Mar 26, 2022)

It does depend on the individual. If you happen to be that individualI, then I would say, by all means, but would advise studying something dissimilar to what you are doing now. Something that might compliment or fill the holes so to speak. Eskrido/Escrima, boxing, Thai Boxing, JKD would all make for a well rounded and proficient fighter. Sparing in a traditional style becomes a problem when you study other arts simultaneously. I found it difficult to spar in TKD/Hapkido as I would rely on my FMA when pushed. This would really piss off my TKD instructor. He would say “holmes, knock that Kung fu crap off!” Lol…


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You can learn many arts poorly or one art well. Decide.


You can also learn one martial arts poorly and many martial arts well.


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## MouldyFish (Mar 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Don't actually change your height any more than jumping up in the air.
> They do make your legs and butt look good though.


I should be fine I think, I’m 6ft 2


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## MouldyFish (Mar 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> And that, my friends, is a beautiful example of a false dilemma fallacy in the wild.  Sometimes referred to as parent logic.  “You get to choose the vegetable tonight!  Yay.  Do you want broccoli or spinach?”


😂 true


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> And that, my friends, is a beautiful example of a false dilemma fallacy in the wild.  Sometimes referred to as parent logic.  “You get to choose the vegetable tonight!  Yay.  Do you want broccoli or spinach?”


Nonsense.

A person has only a set amount of time on this earth. They can give time to learning one thing well, or divide that time between multiple things, learning each less well. They are free to choose how they wish to divide their time.

Hence the old but accurate saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none."

I'm not telling anyone how to decide or what to learn. I am saying what the results are going to be.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> A person has only a set amount of time on this earth. They can give time to learning one thing well, or divide that time between multiple things, learning each less well. They are free to choose how they wish to divide their time.
> 
> ...


What a sad, self limiting way to think about the world and your capability.  I think the person who has capacity to master only one thing is the exception and not the rule.  Most folks master many things.  

I mean, nothing at all wrong with specializing, but are you seriously suggesting there is nothing in between doing it poorly or doing it well?  If so, that is really sad.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> What a sad, self limiting way to think about the world and your capability.  I think the person who has capacity to master only one thing is the exception and not the rule.  Most folks master many things.
> 
> I mean, nothing at all wrong with specializing, but are you seriously suggesting there is nothing in between doing it poorly or doing it well?  If so, that is really sad.


I think there are lots of variables. The most obvious is age. If you're starting when you're 10, you have time to learn a lot more than if you're 60.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> What a sad, self limiting way to think about the world and your capability.  I think the person who has capacity to master only one thing is the exception and not the rule.  Most folks master many things.
> 
> I mean, nothing at all wrong with specializing, but are you seriously suggesting there is nothing in between doing it poorly or doing it well?  If so, that is really sad.


Then it's sad. Bye again.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Then it's sad. Bye again.


You’re getting defensive.  You say unreasonable, illogical things and seem surprised when reasonable people point that out.

Weren’t you the guy talking about mastering gardening and your karate just a few weeks ago?  Are you an exception to your own rule?


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think there are lots of variables. The most obvious is age. If you're starting when you're 10, you have time to learn a lot more than if you're 60.


That’s true. Though at 60 you might have access to a lot more money than at 10, and also have the accumulated skills and experience of an entire adulthood upon which to build.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You can learn many arts poorly or one art well. Decide.


Just putting this back here front and center.  This is not a reasonable statement.  Come on guys. We all know it.  It’s trite pseudo wisdom.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 27, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You can learn many arts poorly or one art well. Decide.





Bill Mattocks said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> A person has only a set amount of time on this earth. They can give time to learning one thing well, or divide that time between multiple things, learning each less well. They are free to choose how they wish to divide their time.
> 
> ...


You've got two claims here, kind of packed into one.

Since we have limited number of hours in our lives, time spent devoted to one thing is time spent not learning other things. Thus there is a zero-sum game in how we allocate our time and choose what to become good at. This is a reasonable view with a lot of truth to it, but also certain limitations which I will address in a minute.
Because of the above, we can only ever learn one thing "well". You don't define what qualifies as learning something "well", but by any normal usage of the word, this is nonsense.
I'll lead off with some examples of people learning more than one thing well ...

Georges St. Pierre is better at Karate than the overwhelming majority of Karate practitioners worldwide. He's also better at Jiu-Jitsu than the overwhelming majority of Jiu-Jitsu practitioners worldwide. I'd say he can also box and wrestle at a pretty darn high level.

Brian May has a Ph.D. in astrophysics and is one of the worlds greatest rock guitarists.

Paul Thorn was a decent professional boxer before becoming a top-notch singer/songwriter.

On a much, much, much. much less elevated plane, I'll take myself as an example. I'll offer my 2nd-degree black belt in BJJ as evidence that I've learned that art reasonably well. I've learned computer programming well enough that I've been able to make a living at it for the last 21 years. And despite starting out in the bottom 1% of the population for general social and people skills (seriously, I probably would have been diagnosed with Aspergers if that had been commonly known when I was growing up), I've learned to be socially competent and to be a really good husband. I've also managed to learn a fair number of other things (martial and non-martial) along the way, but perhaps none of them would be up to whatever standard you consider learning something "well." I won't argue with that. I have a few secondary arts that I can fight competently with, but I don't have them at a professional level. However I have trained with a number of people who have solid professional level skills in multiple martial arts.

Moving on to your more defensible point ...

Time is a limited resource. Therefore it's appealing to think that if we could just quit our jobs, abandon our families, and spend 14 hours per day doing one thing we want to get good at (playing violin, practicing karate, juggling, programming computers, whatever) then we could become amazing at that one thing. This is sort of true, but there are caveats.

Firstly, the vast majority of us are not so obsessed with any single subject that we can maintain this sort of routine for very long without burning out. You might love the violin, but after practicing it for 78 hours per week every week you'll likely get to the point where you never want to see it again (assuming you haven't already given yourself an overuse injury). There are exceptions to this rule - people who are so fixated on one subject that they become world-class virtuosos at an early age. But even most of them need to take some time off to read a book or go on a date or take up a second hobby to maintain their sanity. The ones who don't (Paul Erdős comes to mind) end up being some pretty eccentric individuals.

Secondly, there comes a point of diminishing returns. In your first few hundred hours of studying a subject you can make rapid gains in your knowledge and ability. Once you've put in 10,000+ hours of high-quality study in a field, additional growth comes in much smaller increments. You may end up with the choice of spending your next 500 hours making a 2% improvement in your original field or in gaining some functional competence in a new field.

Thirdly, even if you only want to pursue master of a single art, sometimes studying a different system can give you useful insights into your primary art. It can be helpful to see things from the outside. It gives you a chance to reconsider assumptions that you didn't even realize you were making.

Fourthly, it's worth stopping to think about what exactly it is that you are trying to get good at. Going back to my own training - one of my secondary arts I practice is Sumo. I won't pretend for a moment that I am _good_ at Sumo. (Although I have a lot of fun with it anyway.) It doesn't make my BJJ significantly better.  However it does help me become a better martial artist. There are certain mental and physical attributes that I consider to be relative weakness of mine from a martial standpoint. Sumo forces me to develop those attributes to a higher level.

Just some things to think about.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Assuming your karate school is like most and focuses primarily on striking; if you were to add an art I'd recommend a grappling style (BJJ or judo).
> 
> I'd also recommend trying out climbing if theirs a climbing gym near you-that builds muscle almost perfectly for MA.


I hadn’t thought about that. I was pretty heavily into climbing in my teens and early 20’s. That probably did build a good foundation for my MA.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> I should be fine I think, I’m 6ft 2


Is that with or without the high heels?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> A person has only a set amount of time on this earth. They can give time to learning one thing well, or divide that time between multiple things, learning each less well. They are free to choose how they wish to divide their time.
> 
> ...


Most people become good at their job (some change professions and get good again), learn a sport reasonably well, get good at a game or hobby, etc. We have the capacity to become good at more than one thing. 

That said, for those who want to get deep into the background of an art, lean deeply into the culture behind it, etc., that takes a lot of time - more than just the time to learn the physical principles well. Most folks won’t have the time - with other life priorities - to do that in more than one art.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You can also learn one martial arts poorly and many martial arts well.


You could learn one art kind of well, and master another art.  Or you could learn a bunch of arts pretty well, and one art poorly.  Or a few arts well, a few arts pretty well, and a dozen other arts a little.  I mean, possibilities are literally endless.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 27, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Going back to my own training - one of my secondary arts I practice is Sumo. I won't pretend for a moment that I am _good_ at Sumo. (Although I have a lot of fun with it anyway.) _It doesn't make my BJJ significantly better_. However it does help me become a better martial artist. There are certain mental and physical attributes that I consider to be relative weakness of mine from a martial standpoint. Sumo forces me to develop those attributes to a higher level.


Just wanted to rephrase the italicized portion slightly. Doing Sumo does help me get better at BJJ. (There are areas where the skills overlap.) It just doesn't help my BJJ as much as if I spent that same time practicing actual BJJ.


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## Steve (Mar 27, 2022)

Steve said:


> You could learn one art kind of well, and master another art.  Or you could learn a bunch of arts pretty well, and one art poorly.  Or a few arts well, a few arts pretty well, and a dozen other arts a little.  I mean, possibilities are literally endless.


I can think of several people in my family who have mastered multiple musical instruments.  Heck, My son plays the drums and the the bass guitar very well, and is pretty good on a six string. He also plays the melodica a little, just for fun.  He’s also an outstanding artist, and does many other things very well. And he’s not even 30 yet.  

It’s amazing how much time we have to excel in things if we don’t waste it playing video games or watching Netflix (though I have nothing against either of those activities.)

My point isn’t critical of specialization   Folks should follow their passion.  My point is that it’s sad when folks think they have to choose one thing because they believe they only have capacity to learn one thing.  

This is particularly true if can agree that doing things well doesn’t necessarily mean doing them at an elite level.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 27, 2022)

Can you do multiple martial arts at the same time?  Yes.  Can you learn multiple martial arts at the same time? Depends on what you mean by learn.  If it's just to learn the techniques, yes, but will still be somewhat confusing for the body to get comfortable with and sort out possibly conflicting principles.  I can imagine the difficulty one would have trying to learn two foreign languages at the same time.  Some with a special aptitude may be able to do so, especially when young, but for most of us it would be quite a challenge.

As Gerry said, to really get into the particular art, one must delve deeper and explore, and that takes time.  But I'll go a little further here, beyond background and culture, into the art itself.  To truly learn, it's best to immerse oneself into the subject.  To excel in French and really get comfortably and creatively conversant in it, and understand the nuances, sense of humor and irony, it's best to live in France for a year or two.  To live, eat, breathe and use it on a daily basis.  For it to become natural.  In other words, one must become French.

To me, such immersion is necessary to internalize and absorb the essence of the subject, whether language or MA.   Once the subject is internalized and has become an integral part of you, the skill is set and solidified.  Then, I think it will be no problem to start learning something new.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Can you do multiple martial arts at the same time?  Yes.  Can you learn multiple martial arts at the same time? Depends on what you mean by learn.  If it's just to learn the techniques, yes, but will still be somewhat confusing for the body to get comfortable with and sort out possibly conflicting principles.  I can imagine the difficulty one would have trying to learn two foreign languages at the same time.  Some with a special aptitude may be able to do so, especially when young, but for most of us it would be quite a challenge.
> 
> As Gerry said, to really get into the particular art, one must delve deeper and explore, and that takes time.  But I'll go a little further here, beyond background and culture, into the art itself.  To truly learn, it's best to immerse oneself into the subject.  To excel in French and really get comfortably and creatively conversant in it, and understand the nuances, sense of humor and irony, it's best to live in France for a year or two.  To live, eat, breathe and use it on a daily basis.  For it to become natural.  In other words, one must become French.
> 
> To me, such immersion is necessary to internalize and absorb the essence of the subject, whether language or MA.   Once the subject is internalized and has become an integral part of you, the skill is set and solidified.  Then, I think it will be no problem to start learning something new.


I think we can all agree that there is always more to learn. And yet the limitation remains self imposed.  

Multilingual children in houses where multiple languages  are spoken become fluent in both languages.  And there are many benefits to it.   It seems hard because you have not tried it.  









						Multilingualism - ZERO TO THREE
					

Multilanguage learners (MLLs) are children learning two (or more) languages at the same time, as well as those learning a second language while continuing to develop their first (or home) language.




					www.zerotothree.org


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> Multilingual children in houses where multiple languages are spoken become fluent in both languages. And there are many benefits to it. It seems hard because you have not tried it.


Yes, for two reasons I mentioned:  1.  Kids brains are hot wired to pick up language.  2.  They are immersed in the language using it every day in real life situations.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 28, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Well to anyone that sees this… thank you very much for all your replies I found them very helpful… I have decided not to start TKD, but am still on the look out for a possible 2nd art for when I get to a decent belt in karate (I will carry on karate as well as the other art)…. Any suggestions on what is a good style to add to karate???


French cooking.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 28, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Hence the old but accurate saying, "Jack of all trades, master of none."
> 
> I'm not telling anyone how to decide or what to learn. I am saying what the results are going to be.


What's in a trade?

Maybe flesh, maybe bone.  

Let us both be masters of tomorrow.


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## drop bear (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think we can all agree that there is always more to learn. And yet the limitation remains self imposed.
> 
> Multilingual children in houses where multiple languages  are spoken become fluent in both languages.  And there are many benefits to it.   It seems hard because you have not tried it.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah. They are not exceptional we are stupid.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Oh yeah. They are not exceptional we are stupid.


Not even about exceptional or stupid. Childrens minds have an affinity for new languages that is lost as we age.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yes, for two reasons I mentioned:  1.  Kids brains are hot wired to pick up language.  2.  They are immersed in the language using it every day in real life situations.











						Learning an L2 and L3 at the same time: help or hinder?
					

(2020). Learning an L2 and L3 at the same time: help or hinder?. International Journal of Multilingualism. Ahead of Print.



					www.tandfonline.com
				




Is that true, or is that something you just believe to be true because it sounds hard?  These guys did a study, based on a couple of presumptions.  First, they assert that learning and becoming proficient in a second language makes it easier to learn a third language.  Second, that learning a third language while also learning a second language will slow progress in both.  

They had Chinese university students, some learning English only, and others learning both English and Russian simultaneously.  What they found is that learning the third language had no measurable affect on learning the second language.  Learning two languages didn't speed up progress, but also didn't slow it down.  

I think most interestingly is that the study found that the people learning Russian and English at the same time were benefiting in the same ways that children learning multiple languages experience.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Once again, I just want to make sure my opinion is clear.  I am all for specialization.  There are all kinds of great things about specializing in one thing vs learning more than one.  I'm also not suggesting that learning more than one thing is easier or better than focusing on a single thing.  There are challenges learning multiple things at once as opposed to learning just one thing.

My point is that whether you do one or the other is a choice you are making based on practical issues like time and interest, not on some intrinsic inability.  If you want to learn more than one style at the same time, you can absolutely do it.  No doubt about it.  It may take more time, if time is limited.  But it may not.  As we see from people learning multiple languages at the same time, they benefit from increased motivation, improved ability to learn, and no noticeable slowing of their progress in either language.  

My working theory is that when you tell people they can't do things... they will too often believe you.  In my opinion, this is very much like telling young girls they aren't good at math or science.  And when you see people struggling, because you've told them they will struggle, that just reinforces your own bias.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> Is that true, or is that something you just believe to be true because it sounds hard?


I believe the critical period hypothesis is pretty well supported by research and has been since at least since I was in college. (Although recent research may indicate that it lasts longer than previously thought - https://news.mit.edu/2018/cognitive-scientists-define-critical-period-learning-language-0501 )

That's not to say someone can't become fluent in multiple languages as an adult. It just takes a lot more work.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I believe the critical period hypothesis is pretty well supported by research and has been since at least since I was in college. (Although recent research may indicate that it lasts longer than previously thought - Cognitive scientists define critical period for learning language )
> 
> That's not to say someone can't become fluent in multiple languages as an adult. It just takes a lot more work.



Sure, and I'm not suggesting otherwise.   Let's agree that this is true.  Whether something is hard or easy, or harder as an adult than as a kid, is a red herring.  The actual question is whether it's _harder_ to learn two languages/martial arts styles/other complex systems at the same time, than to learn one at a time?  That's the question at hand.

If you go back and re-read my posts with *that *question in mind, and not the one you all think I'm trying to answer, it will all make more sense (I hope).


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Can you do multiple martial arts at the same time?  Yes.  Can you learn multiple martial arts at the same time? Depends on what you mean by learn.  If it's just to learn the techniques, yes, but will still be somewhat confusing for the body to get comfortable with and sort out possibly conflicting principles.  I can imagine the difficulty one would have trying to learn two foreign languages at the same time.  Some with a special aptitude may be able to do so, especially when young, but for most of us it would be quite a challenge.
> 
> As Gerry said, to really get into the particular art, one must delve deeper and explore, and that takes time.  But I'll go a little further here, beyond background and culture, into the art itself.  To truly learn, it's best to immerse oneself into the subject.  To excel in French and really get comfortably and creatively conversant in it, and understand the nuances, sense of humor and irony, it's best to live in France for a year or two.  To live, eat, breathe and use it on a daily basis.  For it to become natural.  In other words, one must become French.
> 
> To me, such immersion is necessary to internalize and absorb the essence of the subject, whether language or MA.   Once the subject is internalized and has become an integral part of you, the skill is set and solidified.  Then, I think it will be no problem to start learning something new.


I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere that I read someone's comment that the hardest language to learn* is your second one - because you're not only learning the language: you're learning _how to learn_ languages and after that subsequent languages will come easier.

*(As an adult, not counting languages you grow up learning from your environment.)

I can't speak to that from personal experience, but my martial arts experience would seem to support it. 
In the beginning I was just learning basic kinesthetic awareness of my own body. 
Then I was learning the principles and body mechanics of the first art I studied in depth. 
Then when I started studying new arts I had a tendency to try carrying over the body mechanics from my first art. (In fairness, a lot of this was due to my arrogance and unwillingness to empty my cup rather than an inability to grasp the new system.)
Nowadays when I study a new art I'm pretty good at identifying the body mechanics and principles which distinguish that art and getting my body to follow those patterns. It still can take some time if they are significantly different from something I've practiced before - but it's a *lot* quicker than I was able to pick up my first art. This is partially because I've greatly improved my control of my own body and partially because I've greatly improved my ability to see and analyze what's in front of me.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> *I can't remember if it was here or elsewhere that I read someone's comment that the hardest language to learn* is your second one - because you're not only learning the language: you're learning how to learn languages and after that subsequent languages will come easier.
> 
> *(As an adult, not counting languages you grow up learning from your environment.)*
> 
> ...


Okay.  Sure.  But you're still missing the point at hand.  Stay with me for just a second.  It's not about whether learning that second language is harder than learning the third language... or makes learning the third language easier.  The issue here is a matter of scheduling... of synchronization.  Does when you learn the third language matter?  

Said another way, let's agree that learning the second language makes learning the third language easier.  The question is, does it have to be sequential... learn language 2, and then learn language 3?  Or can it be simultaneous?  And the answer seems to be that folks experience the same benefits of learning that second language when learning multiple languages at once as when learning them in series.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> The actual question is whether it's _harder_ to learn two languages/martial arts styles/other complex systems at the same time, than to learn one at a time? That's the question at hand.


I suspect that the limiting factor there is just time. At least with languages students will understand that each is its own thing and won't get caught up in debating whether it's better to conjugate a verb the French way or the Italian way.

I'm actually in the process of what might be my first successful attempt to achieve functional literacy in a second language. It's always bothered me that I only understand English. I had 6 years of foreign language classes in high school and college, but I only studied enough to get passing grades - which is nowhere near enough work to actually become functional in a language. I've made a few attempts to pick up a new language over the years, but never stuck with them long enough to get anywhere.

However my current attempt seems to be getting somewhere. I'm practicing Spanish every day, averaging over an hour per day, and that's enough that I can actually see my ongoing progress. (I need that positive reinforcement to keep going.) Per Duolingo, my vocabulary is up to 2755 words - which, as far as I can tell from Google, puts me about on the level of a 4 year old. I really hope my motivation holds up - this is much further than I've ever gotten with a second language before and I would be thrilled to get to the point where I could read books or watch tv shows in Spanish.

Adding another language on top of that would be extra cool, but I know that I just don't have the time and motivation for that right now.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Sure.  But you're still missing the point at hand.  Stay with me for just a second.  It's not about whether learning that second language is harder than learning the third language... or makes learning the third language easier.  The issue here is a matter of scheduling... of synchronization.  Does when you learn the third language matter?
> 
> Said another way, let's agree that learning the second language makes learning the third language easier.  The question is, does it have to be sequential... learn language 2, and then learn language 3?  Or can it be simultaneous?  And the answer seems to be that folks experience the same benefits of learning that second language when learning multiple languages at once as when learning them in series.


I actually wasn't making an argument one way or another on that point. I was just relating my own personal experience in my martial arts training. 

First I had to learn basic body awareness and control. Then I had to learn how to understand the underlying concepts of a martial art. Then I had to learn to see how other martial arts did things differently and let go of the notion that the first way I learned was necessarily the "correct" way. Then I had to get a bunch of experience with different systems and get practice moving my body in different ways and seeing how different arts operate. 

I actually have students with no prior martial arts experience come in who do just fine studying 2-3 arts at once from the get go. Generally they have a certain degree of natural talent or athletic experience so they know how to use their bodies, time and motivation to put in the hours of hard work each week, and an open mind to absorb what each teacher is showing them. It took me longer to get to the point where I could do that, but I was starting out at the bottom of the bell curve for natural talent.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I actually wasn't making an argument one way or another on that point. I was just relating my own personal experience in my martial arts training.



Sounds good.  But you're responding to my posts.  My concern here is that you (and others) are making tangential points that aren't really addressing the OP's question, in response to my posts, in a way that makes it seem like you disagree with me.  If you agree with me, great.  Otherwise, I am mostly concerned that you are misunderstanding my point, because you respond to my posts with things that are irrelevant to my point.

So, once again, just to be clear and consistent.  I mostly agree with you.  AND, I don't think your points address the question of whether it's ACTUALLY harder to learn two styles at once than just one at a time.  There is conventional wisdom, but my belief is that it's based on unsubstantiated biases.  In fact, where there is data, it seems to indicate that when you learn things doesn't really matter one way or the other.  



Tony Dismukes said:


> First I had to learn basic body awareness and control. Then I had to learn how to understand the underlying concepts of a martial art. Then I had to learn to see how other martial arts did things differently and let go of the notion that the first way I learned was necessarily the "correct" way. Then I had to get a bunch of experience with different systems and get practice moving my body in different ways and seeing how different arts operate.
> 
> I actually have students with no prior martial arts experience come in who do just fine studying 2-3 arts at once from the get go. Generally they have a certain degree of natural talent or athletic experience so they know how to use their bodies, time and motivation to put in the hours of hard work each week, and an open mind to absorb what each teacher is showing them. It took me longer to get to the point where I could do that, but I was starting out at the bottom of the bell curve for natural talent.


You raise an interesting point, which is that learning martial arts is, for most people, a hobby.  Unless you are in a professionally violent job, chances are no one is making you train in martial arts.  So, things like motivation definitely come into play.  Folks don't generally choose to learn things they aren't motivated to learn, when it's their choice.  I know that may seem like an obvious point, but it's relevant because if someone (like the OP) wants to learn two styles at once, we can presume he's motivated to do so.  

Talent and natural ability are factors that will certainly affect how long it might take to learn styles, but that's relative to the person.  Same with other factors... time, money, resources, access to qualified instruction.  We agree that these are all factors to consider, that will affect how long it takes.  

But ultimately, the question is whether it is more efficient to learn 2 things simultaneously or consecutively.  The question is, would it take person A (who has some degree of ability and talent) longer to learn Style 1 and then Style 2 than to learn Style 1 and 2 at the same time?  Jury's out, but if it's like learning languages, data suggests it doesn't matter one way or the other.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> My concern here is that you (and others) are making tangential points that aren't really addressing the OP's question, in response to my posts, in a way that makes it seem like you disagree with me.


Sorry about that. My initial response to you was based on reading your comment as skeptical of the critical period hypothesis. The other comment you quoted wasn't a reply to you, it was a reply to Isshinryuronin. It's somewhat tangential to the original post, but after a few pages of replies some thread drift is normal.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sorry about that. My initial response to you was based on reading your comment as skeptical of the critical period hypothesis. The other comment you quoted wasn't a reply to you, it was a reply to Isshinryuronin. It's somewhat tangential to the original post, but after a few pages of replies some thread drift is normal.


I wasn't addressing critical period hypothesis at all.  Others brought that up as a red herring.  It's entirely irrelevant to my point.

Regarding tangents, I'm all for them, provided they aren't distorting anyone's position, intentionally or not.  

On the topic of the critical period hypothesis, I think there's an interesting discussion to be had there.  I mean, we can agree on the effect, but I question the presumptions about the causes of it, and also the inevitability of it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 28, 2022)

skribs said:


> High heels.


🤣


Dirty Dog said:


> Don't actually change your height any more than jumping up in the air.
> They do make your legs and butt look good though.


Hot tip for the fellas.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> 🤣
> 
> Hot tip for the fellas.


There's a reason cowboys wear them, and don't believe for a second that it has anything to do with riding a horse.  It's all about looking good when you're doing the Texas Two-Step.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2022)

Can i do multiple martial arts at the same time?​
Many years ago, when I started the University of Texas at Austin informal Kung Fu class, I invited a WC instructor to teach that class at the same time. The WC instructor taught the 1st hour of the class. I then taught the 2nd hour of the class. After 2 months, students came to me and complained that they were confused. After their explanation, I then realized the issue.

When the WC instructor taught them the 1st WC form, they were asked to 

- move their arms and not much with their bodies.
- keep 90-degree angle between chest and arm.






When I taught my long fist, they were asked to 

- move their bodies and not much with their arms. 
- keep 180-degree angle between chest and arm.






After these many years, I still don't think one should learn 2 different MA systems (such as long fist and WC) at the same time.


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## drop bear (Mar 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not even about exceptional or stupid. Childrens minds have an affinity for new languages that is lost as we age.



Is it though. Or are we just lazy?


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## Instructor (Mar 28, 2022)

I read in a book that it is best to achieve at least a first dan (or equivalent for that art) before learning a new one.  I believe the book was Living the Martial Way: A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think, by Forrest E. Morgan but I could be mistaken.  Before we had the interwebs we got wisdom like this from books.  This one has informed much of my thinking over the years for better or worse.


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## drop bear (Mar 28, 2022)

You can train multiple styles and be good at them. You just need to commit time and effort to the process. 

I know guys who compete in multiple disciplines and they all have their idiosyncrasies. But still they seem to manage. And still also hold down jobs and have families as well. 

I am also not sure where people are getting their definition of good or mastering an art from. As most martial artists are not very good. Regardless whether they do one style or ten.


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I read in a book that it is best to achieve at least a first dan (or equivalent for that art) before learning a new one.  I believe the book was Living the Martial Way: A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think, by Forrest E. Morgan but I could be mistaken.  Before we had the interwebs we got wisdom like this from books.  This one has informed much of my thinking over the years for better or worse.



For years, before the interwebs were a thing, people used to think that searing meat first was the best way to cook a steak... it seals in the juices.  This was first written in a cookbook by a guy in the mid-1800s, and no one questioned it. It quickly become common knowledge... something that was obviously true, and in just about every cookbook after that, for about 150 years, people would repeat this without any critical evaluation.  

Except that it isn't true at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 28, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not even about exceptional or stupid. Childrens minds have an affinity for new languages that is lost as we age.


I vaguely recall reading about a developmental ability to learn new phonemes, which is lost in mod-late puberty (at least for most people). It’s postulated we cannot learn to hear/recognize new phonemes after a point, and this may explain why adults who move to a new country never lose their accent.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I read in a book that it is best to achieve at least a first dan (or equivalent for that art) before learning a new one.


Agree with you 100% there. The key word is foundation, foundation, and still foundation.

If you start cross training without building up your foundation first, you will have no foundation for the rest of your life. Foundation may define how far you can go in your MA career.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 28, 2022)

Instructor said:


> I read in a book that it is best to achieve at least a first dan (or equivalent for that art) before learning a new one.  I believe the book was Living the Martial Way: A Manual for the Way a Modern Warrior Should Think, by Forrest E. Morgan but I could be mistaken.  Before we had the interwebs we got wisdom like this from books.  This one has informed much of my thinking over the years for better or worse.


I’m not at all convinced that’s wisdom, when applied universally.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 28, 2022)

Steve said:


> For years, before the interwebs were a thing, people used to think that searing meat first was the best way to cook a steak... it seals in the juices.  This was first written in a cookbook by a guy in the mid-1800s, and no one questioned it. It quickly become common knowledge... something that was obviously true, and in just about every cookbook after that, for about 150 years, people would repeat this without any critical evaluation.
> 
> Except that it isn't true at all.


Is it better to sear afterwards?


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## Steve (Mar 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is it though. Or are we just lazy?


I know plenty of people who are lazy and also stupid.  Some are exceptionally stupid.

In related news, there was a guy back in the late 1990s, Alvin Toffler said something like (paraphrasing), "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."

I think this is a skill most people have intuitively as children and we get rusty as we get older. 


Gerry Seymour said:


> Is it better to sear afterwards?


Pretty much.  Depends on what you’re cooking.  But no matter when you sear, it doesn’t lock in juices. 

Personally, if I’m braising the meat, I sear it first.  If I’m looking for a medium rare or something, like with a steak or prime rib, I reverse sear (aka sear at the end). 

Point, though, is that conventional wisdom sounds very reasonable but may be butt *** wrong.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> I know plenty of people who are lazy and also stupid.  Some are exceptionally stupid.
> 
> In related news, there was a guy back in the late 1990s, Alvin Toffler said something like (paraphrasing), "The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn."
> 
> ...


Thanks - I did get the actual point, but wanted to make sure I understood the cooking wisdom that had been included. I've always seared for taste. I'd heard the thing about sealing juices, but never saw much difference. I still tend to sear at the beginning, simply because it's easier to start with a really hot pan and let it cool some as the second side is searing. Not sure that's optimal.


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## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Thanks - I did get the actual point, but wanted to make sure I understood the cooking wisdom that had been included. I've always seared for taste. I'd heard the thing about sealing juices, but never saw much difference. I still tend to sear at the beginning, simply because it's easier to start with a really hot pan and let it cool some as the second side is searing. Not sure that's optimal.


Nothing at all wrong with searing first, but for some things, reverse sear is better.   Also, for steaks and roasts, if you don't dry brine, I recommend looking into that, too.  It makes a difference, if you have the time.

Regarding what's optimal, it's about what is on the plate.  Like martial arts, if you get a good result, you're doing it right.  If you aren't, it doesn't really matter how much you know (unless you're a food critic).  And the only way to get better is to do it.  You'll find out what works for you and what doesn't.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Nothing at all wrong with searing first, but for some things, reverse sear is better.   Also, for steaks and roasts, if you don't dry brine, I recommend looking into that, too.  It makes a difference, if you have the time.
> 
> Regarding what's optimal, it's about what is on the plate.  Like martial arts, if you get a good result, you're doing it right.  If you aren't, it doesn't really matter how much you know (unless you're a food critic).  And the only way to get better is to do it.  You'll find out what works for you and what doesn't.


Ive never gotten around to trying dry brining. I’ll give it a shot next time I’m doing either of those. Thanks!


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## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Ive never gotten around to trying dry brining. I’ll give it a shot next time I’m doing either of those. Thanks!


Just make sure you do it well enough ahead of time, which is a little different for different types of meat.  I will dry brine fish for 45 minutes or so.  If you dry brine cod or halibut filets (probably tilapia, too, though I don't like that fish), they will be a little more firm and less prone to falling apart in the pan.  Beef for at least 8 hours.  Now I'm hungry and thinking about what's for dinner.


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## Hyoho (Mar 29, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


Yes it's possible. I have done it for many years. But the arts I do differs greatly. The problem is one tends to bleed in to the other with things you have yet to learn. Also the more advanced you become the harder it will become as you are beginning to specialize in specific things in an effort to reach fundamental perfection. It might not matter so much with gendai but if its something classical you do. It matters a lot. 

Years ago I used to spar with a Taekwondo teacher that had spent two years doing karate in Japan. He was untouchable with kicks but his punches sucked.


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## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> For years, before the interwebs were a thing, people used to think that searing meat first was the best way to cook a steak... it seals in the juices.  This was first written in a cookbook by a guy in the mid-1800s, and no one questioned it. It quickly become common knowledge... something that was obviously true, and in just about every cookbook after that, for about 150 years, people would repeat this without any critical evaluation.
> 
> Except that it isn't true at all.


Except that it turns out that it still actually is one of the best, perhaps THE BEST, method for cooking a steak.









						Does Searing Meat Really "Seal In" Its Juices?
					

Does searing meat seal in juices? Maybe! But the real question is, is there a cooking method that consistently yields the juiciest steak? And if so, what is it?




					www.thespruceeats.com
				











						Does Searing Meat Really Seal in the Juices?
					

A lot of braising or slow-cooked meat recipes have you start off by searing the meat first until it’s brown and crusty on the outside before you add the liquid, turn down the heat, and simmer until tender. For quick-cooking cuts of meat, like flank or skirt steak, searing may be all you have to...




					www.thekitchn.com
				











						Does Searing Meat Really Seal in the Juices? - Grill Hunters
					

Grilling Recipes, Fire cooking, BBQ Tips, Smoking Tutorials and More, BBQ news - Grill Hunters




					grillhunters.co
				




It's like "chi."  The methods work but the mechanism behind why they work isn't what was once believed.


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## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Except that it turns out that it still actually is one of the best, perhaps THE BEST, method for cooking a steak.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whew... the good news is that the point missed you... went right by you without even a glancing blow.

And if you read any of the subsequent posts, you'd see that searing the meat before you cook "to seal in the juices" isn't any better, much less the best (sorry, "THE BEST") way to cook a steak.  It's fine... decent.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Whew... the good news is that the point missed you... went right by you without even a glancing blow.
> 
> And if you read any of the subsequent posts, you'd see that searing the meat before you cook "to seal in the juices" isn't any better, much less the best (sorry, "THE BEST") way to cook a steak.  It's fine... decent.


No.  You missed the point.  The point being that searing first is still one considered the best way to prepare steak by many chefs despite the fact that everyone knows that it doesn't "seal in the juices."  The point being that just because the reason we used to think it works is wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  We had the mechanics wrong but not the result.  Same thing may apply to martial arts training, as I illustrated with the reference to "chi."


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> No.  You missed the point.  The point being that searing first is still one considered the best way to prepare steak by many chefs despite the fact that everyone knows that it doesn't "seal in the juices."  The point being that just because the reason we used to think it works is wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  We had the mechanics wrong but not the result.  Same thing may apply to martial arts training, as I illustrated with the reference to "chi."


My favorite is mesquite charcoal at volcanic temperature, 20 oz.grass fed ribeye rubbed with fresh crushed garlic, black pepper, and a sprinkle of soy sauce. Medium rare with a nice char and the fat partially rendered. Mmm. Served up with a broccoli raab and jasmine rice.


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## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> No.  You missed the point.  The point being that searing first is still one considered the best way to prepare steak by many chefs despite the fact that everyone knows that it doesn't "seal in the juices."  The point being that just because the reason we used to think it works is wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  We had the mechanics wrong but not the result.  Same thing may apply to martial arts training, as I illustrated with the reference to "chi."


But it's actually not.  If you order a steak prepared in a top steakhouse, it is as likely to be cooked sous vide and then reverse seared as otherwise.  Prime rib is going to be reverse seared for sure.  You're just factually incorrect. 

And the links you provided were not even all to do with steaks.  You're a mess, man.


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## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> But it's actually not.  If you order a steak prepared in a top steakhouse, it is as likely to be cooked sous vide and then reverse seared as otherwise.


No, it's not.  For some reason, you assume that I've not been to "top steak houses."  Last one I dined in was in D.C.  Darned expensive and I'm glad the government footed the bill for me, but I was there on for the Pentagon's business so they can jolly well buy my food...



Steve said:


> Prime rib is going to be reverse seared for sure.  You're just factually incorrect.
> 
> And the links you provided were not even all to do with steaks.  You're a mess, man.


Again, you are missing the point.  The point is that searing is still considered by many chefs to be one of the best (perhaps the best)way to prepare a steak, despite the fact that everyone knows that it doesn't "seal in the juices."  The point being that just because the reason we used to think it works is wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  We had the mechanics wrong but not the result.  Same thing may apply to martial arts training, as I illustrated with the reference to "chi."

Now, if you want to keep arguing about steak houses or whatever, that's fine, but everyone reading will know you're dodging the point.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My favorite is mesquite charcoal at volcanic temperature, 20 oz.grass fed ribeye rubbed with fresh crushed garlic, black pepper, and a sprinkle of soy sauce. Medium rare with a nice char and the fat partially rendered. Mmm. Served up with a broccoli raab and jasmine rice.


Sounds delicious.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My favorite is mesquite charcoal at volcanic temperature, 20 oz.grass fed ribeye rubbed with fresh crushed garlic, black pepper, and a sprinkle of soy sauce. Medium rare with a nice char and the fat partially rendered. Mmm. Served up with a broccoli raab and jasmine rice.


I don't like mesquite very much.  Too strong for me. I like hickory for beef, and apple or cherry for pork, if I'm grilling.  Let the Texans keep their mesquite.   

Inside, I like to sear in a carbon steel or cast iron skillet, and then baste it with a healthy (i.e., unhealthy) amount of garlic butter.  

Whether I sear it first or at the end really depends on how thick the cut is.  For a really thick cut, or something really lean (like a filet), I will usually sous vide it and then sear it quickly at the end.  

Mmm... steak.  Now, I think I need to hit the butcher up this afternoon.


----------



## wolfeyes2323 (Mar 29, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


It depends on why you are training in a method,
and what level of rank you aspire to.
When you change fundamentals you change the art.
Why techniques are executed as they are within a
style is not random or arbitrary , if you do not 
have strong fundamentals within a style you will
never be as good as you could have been in that 
style, if you purposely chose not to be as good 
as you can be within a style, you should never teach
that style  , nor aspire to high rank within it.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> No, it's not.  For some reason, you assume that I've not been to "top steak houses."  Last one I dined in was in D.C.  Darned expensive and I'm glad the government footed the bill for me, but I was there on for the Pentagon's business so they can jolly well buy my food...



I don't have any idea what steak houses you've been to.  Have you been to all of them?  I'm trying to share factual information with you that has nothing to do with whether you have eaten in a restaurant or not.  



lklawson said:


> Again, you are missing the point.  The point is that searing is still considered by many chefs to be one of the best (perhaps the best)way to prepare a steak, despite the fact that everyone knows that it doesn't "seal in the juices."  The point being that just because the reason we used to think it works is wrong doesn't mean that it doesn't work.  We had the mechanics wrong but not the result.  Same thing may apply to martial arts training, as I illustrated with the reference to "chi."
> 
> Now, if you want to keep arguing about steak houses or whatever, that's fine, but everyone reading will know you're dodging the point.


LOL.  I'm genuinely at a loss.  Searing the steak is mechanically just fine.  But is it "THE BEST?"  No.  It's one good way to cook a steak (depending on how thick the steak is cut).  Not a very good way to cook a prime rib roast.  And definitely the best way to cook a braised meat, like a post roast, ox tail, or something like that.  You just don't want to listen to someone who clearly knows more than you, and you're trying to peddle misinformation, which isn't okay.    

Do you think I have a problem with searing steaks?  If you can stop reacting emotionally and go back and read my very first posts to Gerry, you might actually get it.  I'm willing to forget your last three or four silly posts and start over, if you like.

Regarding chi, I don't know what you think I'm ignoring.  I don't have an opinion about chi at all, one way or the other.  I do have an opinion about conventional wisdom, specific to @Instructor 's post where he mentioned something he read in a book.  My example was, in 1850 a guy said you have to sear meat to "seal in the juices."  And not only is that not true, it turns out that searing meat before you cook it is no better than searing meat AFTER you cook it... and sometimes it's worse.

Edit:  To add further context, the above is relevant because there is conventional wisdom that you can't learn two things at once.  Like the myth that searing meat seals in the juice, without actual data, folks should approach them with a health about of skepticism, because they may be wrong... or at least, not completely right.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don't like mesquite very much.  Too strong for me. I like hickory for beef, and apple or cherry for pork, if I'm grilling.  Let the Texans keep their mesquite.
> 
> Inside, I like to sear in a carbon steel or cast iron skillet, and then baste it with a healthy (i.e., unhealthy) amount of garlic butter.
> 
> ...


I like Cote de Boeuf best if I can get proper cuts. Most pans cannot handle the size. I’m a big fan of using different wood for the flavor. For these big cuts I like mesquite but hickory is its equal, just lighter on the flavor profile. I like to mix it up. I like tan oak for tri tip.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don't have any idea what steak houses you've been to.  Have you been to all of them?  I'm trying to share factual information with you that has nothing to do with whether you have eaten in a restaurant or not.
> 
> 
> LOL.  I'm genuinely at a loss.  Searing the steak is mechanically just fine.  But is it "THE BEST?"  No.  It's one good way to cook a steak (depending on how thick the steak is cut).  Not a very good way to cook a prime rib roast.  And definitely the best way to cook a braised meat, like a post roast, ox tail, or something like that.  You just don't want to listen to someone who clearly knows more than you, and you're trying to peddle misinformation, which isn't okay.
> ...


Hmm. Im going to put this to a taste test with my buddies…


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hmm. Im going to put this to a taste test with my buddies…


Put which to the test?  I'm intrigued.  We do cooking experiments pretty often.  Blind taste tests are fairly common in my house.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Put which to the test?  I'm intrigued.  We do cooking experiments pretty often.  Blind taste tests are fairly common in my house.


The sear. Before and after. I never cook steak indoors, but I’m going to try it. My buddy tried that water bag method of heating to temp and then searing, I hated it. It was tender but just not right somehow.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Put which to the test?  I'm intrigued.  We do cooking experiments pretty often.  Blind taste tests are fairly common in my house.


My wife is vegetarian and we dont have kids, just 4 dogs and Bolo, my 8 ft indigo snake.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I like Cote de Boeuf best if I can get proper cuts. Most pans cannot handle the size.



Ribeyes are very forgiving, with all that fat.  If you get them cut thick, or want to cook them bone on, they do GREAT with sous vide with a reverse sear, but you have to cook them high enough to render the fat.  I picked up a 12" carbon steel pan that is fantastic for $40 on Amazon.  I use it all the time, not just for steak, but it does really good with steak.    



Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m a big fan of using different wood for the flavor. For these big cuts I like mesquite but hickory is its equal, just lighter on the flavor profile. I like to mix it up. I like tan oak for tri tip.


Sounds like you're more up on that than me.  I mostly just don't like Mesquite.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don't have any idea what steak houses you've been to.  Have you been to all of them?  I'm trying to share factual information with you that has nothing to do with whether you have eaten in a restaurant or not.
> 
> 
> LOL.  I'm genuinely at a loss.  Searing the steak is mechanically just fine.  But is it "THE BEST?"  No.  It's one good way to cook a steak (depending on how thick the steak is cut).  Not a very good way to cook a prime rib roast.  And definitely the best way to cook a braised meat, like a post roast, ox tail, or something like that.  You just don't want to listen to someone who clearly knows more than you, and you're trying to peddle misinformation, which isn't okay.
> ...


No.  I think that you missed my point.  To reiterate, just because "we" had the reasons wrong why something worked doesn't mean that it didn't work.  No, searing a steak does not "seal in the juices."  But it still can make a mighty tasty steak.  It just does so for different reasons than was once believed.  Now we understand why better.

Same thing goes for martial arts, such as learning two arts at once or why someone might or might not want to do so.    The belief of why a result was achieved might be wrong but the result is still there.  That's the point.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The sear. Before and after. I never cook steak indoors, but I’m going to try it. My buddy tried that water bag method of heating to temp and then searing, I hated it. It was tender but just not right somehow.


Sous vide, like any other cooking method, can be done right or wrong.  Steaks cooked at the right temp for the right amount of time, seasoned at the right time, and finished well.  All that matter.  I mentioned above, it took a while for me to realize that what was wrong is I was cooking them to 129F in the bath, which didn't render the fat.

If you cook it indoors, I hope you have a killer vent hood, or you'll set your smoke alarms off and freak the dogs out.  Not that I know that from personal experience.


----------



## Instructor (Mar 29, 2022)




----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Alright. I'll try to make this very clear.  



lklawson said:


> No.  I think that you missed my point.


Fine.  I'll pay particular attention.  



lklawson said:


> To reiterate, just because "we" had the reasons wrong why something worked doesn't mean that it didn't work.


This is fine.  The only person talking about something not working is you.  



lklawson said:


> No, searing a steak does not "seal in the juices."


Yes.


lklawson said:


> But it still can make a mighty tasty steak.


Yes.  I appreciate your much more qualified language now.  You CAN make a mighty tasty steak this way.  For sure.  

The conventional wisdom, however, was not specific to steak.  It was about searing meats.  And searing some cuts of meat, like a standing rib roast, up front, is not the best way to cook the meat.  And, even specific to steak, it's not necessarily the best way.  Not even a better way.  And in some cases, not as good as other ways.  But for sure, it CAN make a mighty tasty steak.



lklawson said:


> It just does so for different reasons than was once believed.  Now we understand why better.


Ah, here we go.  We do understand better HOW it works, which is WHY we know it's folk wisdom that isn't really true.  20 years ago, if you cooked a steak at low temp and seared it at the end, people (I'm guessing people like you) would insist you were doing it wrong.  We know better now, because we better understand the techniques and some folks have challenged the conventional wisdom to get some objective data.



lklawson said:


> Same thing goes for martial arts, such as learning two arts at once or why someone might or might not want to do so.    The belief of why a result was achieved might be wrong but the result is still there.  That's the point.


Well, except that the examples suggest the exact opposite of what you're saying.  It's bizarre.


----------



## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 29, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


Karate is any punching and kicking art. When I went through a martial art, I always finished it up to black belt and then I approached another art. You should devote your time and effort to  your art untill you reach black belt, and after that, then see about taking another martial art. One should devote learning all they want to learn from one art before going to another.
I can only tell you what I did and it worked out fine. I wound up teaching Tracy Kenpo at their studio for a while before I broke away and began learning Ed Parker Kenpo. I preferred Ed Parker techniques. But you should make your own choice and if it doesn't work out, go back to where you were.
Hope this helped. 
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## drop bear (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> No.  I think that you missed my point.  To reiterate, just because "we" had the reasons wrong why something worked doesn't mean that it didn't work.  No, searing a steak does not "seal in the juices."  But it still can make a mighty tasty steak.  It just does so for different reasons than was once believed.  Now we understand why better.
> 
> Same thing goes for martial arts, such as learning two arts at once or why someone might or might not want to do so.    The belief of why a result was achieved might be wrong but the result is still there.  That's the point.



So the result is taste in the case of steak. And what exactly in the case of martial arts?

Because I could probably make up a process that makes steak taste better if I sold that process well enough. 

Regardless as to whether I was outright lying about the effectiveness of that process.

Just like martial arts.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 29, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just wanted to rephrase the italicized portion slightly. Doing Sumo does help me get better at BJJ. (There are areas where the skills overlap.) It just doesn't help my BJJ as much as if I spent that same time practicing actual BJJ.



Stupidly enough Roman greco helps me get better at BJJ because I can't just skate by doing double legs. And so have to develop depth.


----------



## J. Pickard (Mar 29, 2022)

I mean, Taekwondo is just Koreanified Shotokan Karate sooo....

I guess it really depends on your overall goal. Personally, I did Shotokan for a few years just to get back to the roots of my CDK system and while I really really enjoyed it and learned some things it really didn't add much to the training I already had. On the other hand, when I started BJJ it was like a whole new world. It was like the whole time my toolbox was filled with nothing but different types of hammers and then suddenly I was introduced to wrenches and a bunch of new possibilities were open to me. 

There is benefit to learning similar arts but to go back to my tool analogy it's just like adding another type of hammer when maybe what you really need is a wrench.


----------



## J. Pickard (Mar 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What's the difference in knowledge between 5th, 9th, and 10th degree again?
> 
> Asking for a friend.


If it's KKW TKD, several hundred dollars at least.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Ah, here we go.  We do understand better HOW it works, which is WHY we know it's folk wisdom that isn't really true.  20 years ago, if you cooked a steak at low temp and seared it at the end, people (I'm guessing people like you) would insist you were doing it wrong.  We know better now, because we better understand the techniques and some folks have challenged the conventional wisdom to get some objective data.


20 years ago I was just chucking my steaks on a grill, same as now, and I never gave a **** how you or anyone else cooked yours as long as you were happy with the results.  Same as now.



Steve said:


> Well, except that the examples suggest the exact opposite of what you're saying.  It's bizarre.


Exactly the opposite. People would see a result, then they'd try to figure out why that result was achieved by the process they used.  Sometimes they'd be wrong about the why.  But the result was still the same.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So the result is taste in the case of steak. And what exactly in the case of martial arts?
> 
> Because I could probably make up a process that makes steak taste better if I sold that process well enough.
> 
> ...


Like toughening knuckles and hands for punching.  We now know that it has a lot to do with increasing bone density in the bones and cross-linking collagen in the the skin.  But various other cultures had different ideas on what was causing it.  The Chinese thought Chi/mystical body energy had something to with it and Europeans had theories all over the map such as similar to compacting wood or dirt through continuous hitting.  They were wrong about the physiolocical causes but their training regiments still created hands with denser/tougher bones, tougher skin, and callouses.  

They knew that if you punch stuff in this way, you get tougher hands.  The why of it was wrong but the end result was still tougher hands to punch with.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> 20 years ago I was just chucking my steaks on a grill, same as now, and I never gave a **** how you or anyone else cooked yours as long as you were happy with the results.  Same as now.


You seem tense.  It's an analogy.  Calm down. 



lklawson said:


> Exactly the opposite. People would see a result, then they'd try to figure out why that result was achieved by the process they used.  Sometimes they'd be wrong about the why.  But the result was still the same.


But that's not what happens.  I mean, it would be great if this is what happens... we'd be having a different discussion completely.  

What happens is someone teaches someone else how to do it, based on conventional wisdom, and that person teaches other folks how to do it the same way.  And so on.  Folks just do it that way without thinking about it because that's the way they were taught.  Sometimes, it works just fine.  Sometimes, not.  Sometimes, it's a really bad idea all around.

But the actual point is that it is passed along without critical thought.  As you say, 20 years ago, you just chuck your steaks on the grill, same as now.  You're not alone.  A lot of people are in the same boat as you, not curious or interested in facts, and perfectly content with the fiction.

This is why it's often difficult to separate the facts from the superstition, because dudes like you just aren't curious enough to figure out whether it works, why it works, or if there might be a better way to do it.  Whatever "it" is.  And you're also a case in point of how emotional people get when you point out that their superstitions aren't correct.  You're like a scientist who says, "We're good.  We know enough.  No need to ask any more questions."

There's a definite martial arts parallel here, too.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> But that's not what happens.  I mean, it would be great if this is what happens... we'd be having a different discussion completely.
> 
> What happens is someone teaches someone else how to do it, based on conventional wisdom, and that person teaches other folks how to do it the same way.  And so on.  Folks just do it that way without thinking about it because that's the way they were taught.  Sometimes, it works just fine.  Sometimes, not.  Sometimes, it's a really bad idea all around.


And sometimes they invent or guess at why it working and that guess turns out to be 100% bullsqueeze.  Doesn't mean that the result isn't good, just means that it doesn't happen for the reason then thought.

It's like the oft repeated story that people once thought there was a small demon inside the kernel of popcorn and when it was heated he got pissed off and burst the kernel open.  We know that's not what's happening but it didn't stop them from popping corn.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> And sometimes they invent or guess at why it working and that guess turns out to be 100% bullsqueeze.  Doesn't mean that the result isn't good, just means that it doesn't happen for the reason then thought.
> 
> It's like the oft repeated story that people once thought there was a small demon inside the kernel of popcorn and when it was heated he got pissed off and burst the kernel open.  We know that's not what's happening but it didn't stop them from popping corn.


Exactly.  I knew you'd come around.   But the actual point here (at least the point I was making before we started talking about searing steaks), has nothing to do with the results.  The beliefs may be right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle.  

It's the lack of critical evaluation.  This is how martial arts myths and con artists survive.  Self Defense and martial arts are rife with mythology.  Some of the mythology ends up having something to it.  Some of it does not, and just sounds good (e.g., anti-grappling techniques in the Bujinkan or that searing meat somehow seals in the juices).  But if you aren't interested in challenging these, you will never know which is which... what is bunk and what actually has some foundation of truth or legitimacy.

I know you're intellectually curious about some martial arts, based on reading your posts on other topics like boxing or HEMA.  For some reason, though, you got twisted around on this analogy and have been arguing in favor of stubbornly adhering to superstition.  Regardless, I'm glad we got through it.  

Unless... do you want to talk about steak some more?  I didn't even get into all the different ways you can cook steak.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Ribeyes are very forgiving, with all that fat.  If you get them cut thick, or want to cook them bone on, they do GREAT with sous vide with a reverse sear, but you have to cook them high enough to render the fat.  I picked up a 12" carbon steel pan that is fantastic for $40 on Amazon.  I use it all the time, not just for steak, but it does really good with steak.
> 
> 
> Sounds like you're more up on that than me.  I mostly just don't like Mesquite.


I’m no chef, but I can grill with the best. I only use real lump hardwood charcoal, no gas, no briquette.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Exactly.  I knew you'd come around.   But the actual point here (at least the point I was making before we started talking about searing steaks), has nothing to do with the results.  The beliefs may be right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle.
> 
> It's the lack of critical evaluation.  This is how martial arts myths and con artists survive.  Self Defense and martial arts are rife with mythology.  Some of the mythology ends up having something to it.  Some of it does not, and just sounds good (e.g., anti-grappling techniques in the Bujinkan or that searing meat somehow seals in the juices).  But if you aren't interested in challenging these, you will never know which is which... what is bunk and what actually has some foundation of truth or legitimacy.
> 
> ...


Are all the different ways to cut up a cow off topic?  Because _steak _is kind of limited.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m no chef, but I can grill with the best. I only use real lump hardwood charcoal, no gas, no briquette.


I'm no chef, either, but I'm curious as hell, and I LOVE to eat.  I like to cook on charcoal, but have nothing against a briquette.  I'll splurge on lump charcoal when I need it to burn really hot, or really clean (e.g., when I'm making pizza).


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Are all the different ways to cut up a cow off topic?  Because _steak _is kind of limited.


If you start a thread in the locker room on cooking (or better yet, eating), I'll be there.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Re


lklawson said:


> No.  I think that you missed my point.  To reiterate, just because "we" had the reasons wrong why something worked doesn't mean that it didn't work.  No, searing a steak does not "seal in the juices."  But it still can make a mighty tasty steak.  It just does so for different reasons than was once believed.  Now we understand why better.
> 
> Same thing goes for martial arts, such as learning two arts at once or why someone might or might not want to do so.    The belief of why a result was achieved might be wrong but the result is still there.  That's the point.


Results are what count. Cooking, music, art, martial arts all have various methods that can produce great results, some are more or less tried and true, but taste is a subjective opinion with all sorts of reasoning behind the final scoring. Can you learn to cook two different steaks two different ways? Sure, but each person who tastes them will experience them differently and judge them in their own human way, same as martial arts.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Steve said:


> Sous vide, like any other cooking method, can be done right or wrong.  Steaks cooked at the right temp for the right amount of time, seasoned at the right time, and finished well.  All that matter.  I mentioned above, it took a while for me to realize that what was wrong is I was cooking them to 129F in the bath, which didn't render the fat.
> 
> If you cook it indoors, I hope you have a killer vent hood, or you'll set your smoke alarms off and freak the dogs out.  Not that I know that from personal experience.


Lol! The dogs hate the smoke alarm more than anything.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

Funny you should men


lklawson said:


> And sometimes they invent or guess at why it working and that guess turns out to be 100% bullsqueeze.  Doesn't mean that the result isn't good, just means that it doesn't happen for the reason then thought.
> 
> It's like the oft repeated story that people once thought there was a small demon inside the kernel of popcorn and when it was heated he got pissed off and burst the kernel open.  We know that's not what's happening but it didn't stop them from popping corn.


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So the result is taste in the case of steak. And what exactly in the case of martial arts?
> 
> Because I could probably make up a process that makes steak taste better if I sold that process well enough.
> 
> ...


Another food related thing is this whole thing about fats...  back in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, we were all sold a bill of goods on the use of animal fats vs vegetable oils for cooking.  It's a great example of something that sounded really good, was accepted as fact, and then turned out to be mostly wrong.  McDonald's french fries are worse for us now than ever... and the real travesty is that they don't taste as good!

Or the link between vaccinations and autism... which sounded plausible, was passed along as fact, and then turned out to be complete bunk.

Or that girls aren't good at math.  Or that boys are better managers. 

Conventional wisdom is mostly fine (though sometimes, it's really not fine)... it's generally folksy and comfortable, and if you get what you want out of it, great.  But just because folks say something for a long time doesn't mean it's true.  

And getting this all back to the main point, this idea that folks can't learn more than one thing at a time is "conventional wisdom".  It's believed in spite of the fact that people do it all the time, and are very successful.  It's believed in spite of the fact that when it's challenged, there appears to be no real difference one way or the other.  But folks believe it, and it's hard to change their minds once they've decided it's true.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> And sometimes they invent or guess at why it working and that guess turns out to be 100% bullsqueeze.  Doesn't mean that the result isn't good, just means that it doesn't happen for the reason then thought.
> 
> It's like the oft repeated story that people once thought there was a small demon inside the kernel of popcorn and when it was heated he got pissed off and burst the kernel open.  We know that's not what's happening but it didn't stop them from popping corn.


Funny you should mention popcorn…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So the result is taste in the case of steak. And what exactly in the case of martial arts?
> 
> Because I could probably make up a process that makes steak taste better if I sold that process well enough.
> 
> ...


This is unfortunately true. Phony baloney is what sells.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 29, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Like toughening knuckles and hands for punching.  We now know that it has a lot to do with increasing bone density in the bones and cross-linking collagen in the the skin.  But various other cultures had different ideas on what was causing it.  The Chinese thought Chi/mystical body energy had something to with it and Europeans had theories all over the map such as similar to compacting wood or dirt through continuous hitting.  They were wrong about the physiolocical causes but their training regiments still created hands with denser/tougher bones, tougher skin, and callouses.
> 
> They knew that if you punch stuff in this way, you get tougher hands.  The why of it was wrong but the end result was still tougher hands to punch with.



Taking only the cases where that works out. Then yeah. The issue is with trying to justify woo woo magic. Means your evidence is off. Even if it is coincidentally right. 

And these small mistakes create these massive false premises.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Exactly.  I knew you'd come around.   But the actual point here (at least the point I was making before we started talking about searing steaks), has nothing to do with the results.  The beliefs may be right, wrong, or somewhere in the middle.



Come around?  That's where I was at to start with.  Perhaps you just misunderstood my point?


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Come around?  That's where I was at to start with.  Perhaps you just misunderstood my point?


I understand you wanted to talk about steak and chi, took a hard anti-reverse sear stance, and don't really know how steakhouses cook your meat.  And that it took a while to walk you back around to the conversation.  But we got there in the end.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Taking only the cases where that works out. Then yeah. The issue is with trying to justify woo woo magic. Means your evidence is off. Even if it is coincidentally right.
> 
> And these small mistakes create these massive false premises.


"60% of the time it works every time."


----------



## lklawson (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> I understand you wanted to talk about steak and chi, took a hard anti-reverse sear stance, and don't really know how steakhouses cook your meat.  And that it took a while to walk you back around to the conversation.  But we got there in the end.


Then you still missed the point.  That makes me sad.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Then you still missed the point.


Your point was that sometimes through dumb luck, folk wisdom gets it right... sort of... sometimes... even if they don't understand it.  You talked a lot about simple cause and effect.  Your point wasn't subtle.

Have you ever ready any Hume?  



lklawson said:


> That makes me sad.



You going to be okay?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Your point was that sometimes through dumb luck, folk wisdom gets it right... sort of... sometimes... even if they don't understand it.


Not quite, if I got it right. The idea he's putting forth is that for folk wisdom, the effect is known; ie: seared meat tastes good, or relaxing your muscles can deliver a stronger punch. Then people try to reverse engineer why that happens; ie: it holds in the juices, or relaxing increases your chi which causes more power. 

And you can actively observe the end result to determine if the effect is correct, even if you can't determine the _why_ (which is where folk wisdom comes in), you can determine that x should/shouldn't be done. 

So the claim is that the end result of folk wisdom is also right, it's the in-between stuff that gets muddied. Rather than that folk wisdom is always random, and sometimes luck gets it right.


----------



## super saiyan 4 (Mar 30, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Hello there, i know this question is asked a lot, but i feel like i have a more specific version... kind of....
> 
> Basically, i have been doing karate for a while now, only a year or so, and im just over half way to black belt. I love kicking as well, so thought taekwondo might be a good option. Although, because some moves in karate and taekwondo are similar but not quite the same, would this interfere with my karate training? For example, the roundhouse kick or front kick are slightly different in these two styles i believe, so it may be a problem...
> 
> ...


Better to focus on one if you're new but still possible in this case since both styles are similar.(you can do it with dramatically different styles as well)


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## lklawson (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Your point was that sometimes through dumb luck, folk wisdom gets it right... sort of... sometimes... even if they don't understand it.  You talked a lot about simple cause and effect.  Your point wasn't subtle.
> 
> Have you ever ready any Hume?
> 
> ...


I have puppies, coloring books, and a safe space.

...so no.


----------



## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not quite, if I got it right. The idea he's putting forth is that for folk wisdom, the effect is known; ie: seared meat tastes good, or relaxing your muscles can deliver a stronger punch. Then people try to reverse engineer why that happens; ie: it holds in the juices, or relaxing increases your chi which causes more power.
> 
> And you can actively observe the end result to determine if the effect is correct, even if you can't determine the _why_ (which is where folk wisdom comes in), you can determine that x should/shouldn't be done.
> 
> So the claim is that the end result of folk wisdom is also right, it's the in-between stuff that gets muddied. Rather than that folk wisdom is always random, and sometimes luck gets it right.


Isn't that cause and effect?  That is right sometimes?  Through dumb luck?   What did I miss? (genuine question, because I read what you say above, and it's just saying the same thing differently.)


----------



## Gyakuto (Mar 30, 2022)

Yes you can, just like you can learn different types of dancing. 

Will they ‘interfere‘ with the progress of each other…🤔 In my chosen art, the feet are kept facing straight ahead, parallel with each other, back heel slightly raised. Many Aikido and Karate practitioners find this _very_ difficult to accomplish because of having a 45degree-angle-and-heel-planted-firmly drilled into them over the years. I am a third Dan in Wado Ryu Karate and I’ve never had an issue with the correct foot position for my current art. Thus it depends on your ability to adapt!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes you can, just like you can learn different types of dancing.
> 
> Will they ‘interfere‘ with the progress of each other…🤔 In my chosen art, the feet are kept facing straight ahead, parallel with each other, back heel slightly raised. Many Aikido and Karate practitioners find this _very_ difficult to accomplish because of having a 45degree-angle-and-heel-planted-firmly drilled into them over the years. I am a third Dan in Wado Ryu Karate and I’ve never had an issue with the correct foot position for my current art. Thus it depends on your ability to adapt!


Back to the OP. I have trained in Tai Chi Chuan and “Gung Fu“ concurrently for 25 years. In my opinion one adds to the other. One is iron wrapped silk, the other is silk wrapped iron. They are synergistic and they inform one another.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Isn't that cause and effect?  That is right sometimes?  Through dumb luck?   What did I miss? (genuine question, because I read what you say above, and it's just saying the same thing differently.)


Now look, you guys can’t just keep calling me a rube because of my caveman cooking technique unless you try my steaks and don’t like them. I may not understand why my feathers and rattles work, but when I call down the spirits of the steak gods, they answer.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Isn't that cause and effect?  That is right sometimes?  Through dumb luck?   What did I miss? (genuine question, because I read what you say above, and it's just saying the same thing differently.)


At times like this, I wish I had a whiteboard so I could diagram what I'm talking about.

So there's two ways of thinking about cause and effect here-forwards and backwards. You're thinking forwards which I think is what's causing the confusion. 

To a forward thinking: You have a cause and effect. So doing A causes B. If you don't do A, B won't happen, and if you do C, D might happen. People sometimes get lucky with guessing that B will happen from A, without really knowing. But you can easily test this and mess around with variations of A and see how that impacts things and get a pretty good idea of what's happening. That's how a lot of experiments are run nowadays. 

Now for the backwards thinking: You have an idea that A caused B. Rather than continuing working out the "why" from the A standpoint, and putting in variations of it to see the different results and what comes up, you just kind of guess why it happened. This is where you end up with some folk wisdom and pseudo-science. 

The thing is that it's not dumb luck, since they've already determined A causes B, they're just trying to fill in the reasoning afterwards. So for instance, relaxing your shoulder before you punch can cause a stronger punch. That is cause and effect, but it's not dumb luck that they figured that out. And it's always going to be right (assuming both ends of the equation are tangible), since if it doesn't reproduce the results, people will stop assuming it's correct. But then you get people making up reasons why it works, and that's the falsehoods, saying it works because it means your fourth chakra was aligned, or it's a sign you had control over your emotions, or something else. 

A more concrete example would be the seasons. If you look at ancient greece, they knew that when winter came, crops died. They could pretty distinctly tell every time around november (or whenever crops die in greece), any crops would whither and die, and leaves would fall off the trees. So they have both cause and effect, but it's not dumb luck that they figured it out, it's pretty obvious. Then they decided they'd figure out why, and determined that one god kidnapped another goddesses kid, and keeps her for those months, and the mom goddess happens to be the goddess of the crop so she cries and mopes and everything dies. Rather than that the earth tilts and rotates. So they could figure out both cause and effect, and it's not dumb luck, but if someone came up to you and said that this guy kidnapped that girl and now my wheat won't grow, you'd probably call them crazy. 

Hopefully that makes sense. It's one of those things in my head I can think about it perfectly, and if we were talking about it, I'd probably be able to explain, but tough over text.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Now look, you guys can’t just keep calling me a rube because of my caveman cooking technique unless you try my steaks and don’t like them. I may not understand why my feathers and rattles work, but when I call down the spirits of the steak gods, they answer.


I am quite sure I would LOVE steak prepared however you like to do it.  There is nothing better than to eat food someone made for you.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> At times like this, I wish I had a whiteboard so I could diagram what I'm talking about.
> 
> So there's two ways of thinking about cause and effect here-forwards and backwards. You're thinking forwards which I think is what's causing the confusion.
> 
> ...


I'm with you and appreciate the clarification.  I mentioned David Hume earlier, and I think now that reference was too esoteric.  In a nutshell, he wrote a lot about flipping the relation between cause and effect much as you describe above.  I will be grossly oversimplifying the issue here, but he basically said, you witness the effect, and it creates a relationship with a perceived cause.   "My steak is nice and juicy.  Must be because I wore my feathered boa while I grilled it."  

He proposed that the more you see those things together, the stronger your belief that they are causally related.  The main thrust, though, is that the relationship is a function of the perceived connection... and like a rut in the road, the more we see that relationship, the deeper the mental ruts become, and so then the harder it is to break out of the ruts in the face of evidence that contradicts our belief in that causal relationship.

So, in a nutshell, I think I get it.  Cause to effect, and also effect to a cause.

Regarding dumb luck, I mean, it might be if there isn't any critical thought or any kind of rigorous scientific process. I mean, the entire point here is I was cautioning against just blindly accepting conventional wisdom, because it may be completely wrong, and when it is right... if not blind luck, then at most coincidence.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> I am quite sure I would LOVE steak prepared however you like to do it.  There is nothing better than to eat food someone made for you.


Lol! I’m happy to provide should you and Mr. Lawson show up to humboldt county California. Just remember there is a two drink minimum at Chez Wing Woo Gar Steakhouse, and we require 25 minutes for the chocolate Soufflé.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Mar 30, 2022)

Ya dont start TKD karate is more better because you used both hands and feet .


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## lklawson (Mar 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lol! I’m happy to provide should you and Mr. Lawson show up to humboldt county California. Just remember there is a two drink minimum at Chez Wing Woo Gar Steakhouse, and we require 25 minutes for the chocolate Soufflé.


I'm out in Ohio and I don't get that way very often but I appreciate the invite.  

As for drinks, I only consume frufru sissy stuff.  The manliest stuff I consume is hard cider.  If a real man would drink it (whiskey, scotch, etc.) I probably won't.  I don't even like beer.  Basically, if it doesn't have an umbrella in it, I probably won't like it.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> I'm out in Ohio and I don't get that way very often but I appreciate the invite.
> 
> As for drinks, I only consume frufru sissy stuff.  The manliest stuff I consume is hard cider.  If a real man would drink it (whiskey, scotch, etc.) I probably won't.  I don't even like beer.  Basically, if it doesn't have an umbrella in it, I probably won't like it.
> 
> ...


What about mead?


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## lklawson (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What about mead?


Depends on the mead.  I've had some that was still honey sweet and had a kick that would kill a bear.  A friend made it from his own honey that he harvested from his own apiary.  I'd be a lush on that.  The commercial meads I've tried all tasted like honey-flavored beaker cleaner.  

I've also had Nalivka which I could become a lush on and a historic Flip which tasted like a delicious toasted marshmallow warm drink with a slight beery accompanying flavor.  I understand why my ancestors liked Flip so much.

Hurricanes, daiquiris, margaritas (as long as they're not over-acoholled). etc.  Pretty much anything that is pantie-waist.  I even liked wine-coolers back in the day (I know, I know).  Almost the only wines I like come with a screw-top and a Boones logo.  If it's too manly, I'll just stick with Shirley Temples and Virgin Mary's (or hot tea in reality).  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What about mead?


"Have you ever tried the honey liquor we call mead?  Gives a man a halo, does mead."  - Friar Tuck


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Depends on the mead.  I've had some that was still honey sweet and had a kick that would kill a bear.  A friend made it from his own honey that he harvested from his own apiary.  I'd be a lush on that.  The commercial meads I've tried all tasted like honey-flavored beaker cleaner.
> 
> I've also had Nalivka which I could become a lush on and a historic Flip which tasted like a delicious toasted marshmallow warm drink with a slight beery accompanying flavor.  I understand why my ancestors liked Flip so much.
> 
> ...


Would you care for another Zima?  

I'm a fan of aquavit.  I like the ones that lean toward pepper and citrus.


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## lklawson (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Would you care for another Zima?
> 
> I'm a fan of aquavit.  I like the ones that lean toward pepper and citrus.


Zima's were too much like wine (or was it too beery?  I forget.).  I preferred the fruity ones more.  Shame the government screwed them by quintupling the excise tax.

Like I said, my most manly drink is probably hard cider.  I suppose Nalivka comes close but only because it's Russian and has a buttload of vodka.  Flip sorta comes close too because it's a Colonial drink with both Rum and Beer (and a red-hot poker).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> I'm out in Ohio and I don't get that way very often but I appreciate the invite.
> 
> As for drinks, I only consume frufru sissy stuff.  The manliest stuff I consume is hard cider.  If a real man would drink it (whiskey, scotch, etc.) I probably won't.  I don't even like beer.  Basically, if it doesn't have an umbrella in it, I probably won't like it.
> 
> ...


I am a fan of fruity drinks myself, I think you would be ok. I’ve got good scotch and bourbon but I never touch the stuff. Steve can have it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What about mead?


You can come too.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Zima's were too much like wine (or was it too beery?  I forget.).  I preferred the fruity ones more.  Shame the government screwed them by quintupling the excise tax.
> 
> Like I said, my most manly drink is probably hard cider.  I suppose Nalivka comes close but only because it's Russian and has a buttload of vodka.  Flip sorta comes close too because it's a Colonial drink with both Rum and Beer (and a red-hot poker).
> 
> ...


Some good friends of mine make killer hard cider.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> I am a fan of fruity drinks myself, I think you would be ok. I’ve got good scotch and bourbon but I never touch the stuff. Steve can have it.


Gladly.  But I will admit that I'm a little dubious of what someone who doesn't drink Scotch considers 'good'.   What counts as good scotch and bourbon?  To be clear, my standards are pretty low... but still... I HAVE standards.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Would you care for another Zima?
> 
> I'm a fan of aquavit.  I like the ones that lean toward pepper and citrus.


Zima? That’s malt liquor, ugh! Had enough of that in the 80s. St Ides 40oz. Can not be had for less than $1.09 in those days. It’s right up there with night train and mad dog 20/20.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Some good friends of mine make killer hard cider.
> 
> Gladly.  But I will admit that I'm a little dubious of what someone who doesn't drink Scotch considers 'good'.   What counts as good scotch and bourbon?  To be clear, my standards are pretty low... but still... I HAVE standards.


Ok I have Johnny Walker blue, Whistle pig rye, Johnny Walker platinum, Basil Hayden Bourbon, glenlivet 14, the maccallen 18. My wife likes these. The guy who owns Whistle pig is a friend of a friend. The owner of the Multnomah whiskey library is also a friend. Now, did I meet the standard?


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Zima? That’s malt liquor, ugh! Had enough of that in the 80s. St Ides 40oz. Can not be had for less than $1.09 in those days. It’s right up there with night train and mad dog 20/20.


It was all Old English at Garfield HS where I mostly skipped school and hung out with my loser friends.  At night school and summer school at Marshall High (where you end up when you mostly skip school), the Samoans always had Colt 45, which they were more than happy to share with me.  I never bought the 40s, but would drink them if offered.  If I were looking to score some beer myself, it was Lucky Lager, for some reason.  Probably because it was cheap and I liked the little visual puzzles that were under the bottle cap.

Ah the memories of my misspent youth.  I'm glad my kids weren't as screwed up as I was.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> Some good friends of mine make killer hard cider.
> 
> Gladly.  But I will admit that I'm a little dubious of what someone who doesn't drink Scotch considers 'good'.   What counts as good scotch and bourbon?  To be clear, my standards are pretty low... but still... I HAVE standards.





Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok I have Johnny Walker blue, Whistle pig rye, Johnny Walker platinum, Basil Hayden Bourbon, glenlivet 14, the maccallen 18. My wife likes these. The guy who owns Whistle pig is a friend of a friend. The owner of the Multnomah whiskey library is also a friend. Now, did I meet the standard?


He definitely meets my standards. The two of us can split the scotch while him and kirk have the fruity drinks. And I'll buy/bring the steaks as long as you all grill/sear/reverse sear/call god to smite the steaks. 

Now, we just have to find a way to convince Kirk to make the trip...


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> He definitely meets my standards. The two of us can split the scotch while him and kirk have the fruity drinks. And I'll buy/bring the steaks as long as you all grill/sear/reverse sear/call god to smite the steaks.
> 
> Now, we just have to find a way to convince Kirk to make the trip...


Lol! I’m in!


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Ok I have Johnny Walker blue, Whistle pig rye, Johnny Walker platinum, Basil Hayden Bourbon, glenlivet 14, the maccallen 18. My wife likes these. The guy who owns Whistle pig is a friend of a friend. The owner of the Multnomah whiskey library is also a friend. Now, did I meet the standard?


I approve.  

I'm actually intrigued by the local stuff (Whistle Pig).  I have nothing against the major distilleries, but like to buy local when I can.  We have quite a few micro-distilleries around.   I buy my aquavit from Scratch Distillery up in Edmonds, WA.  They have a pretty good selection of gins, too (that's really what they're known for), but their lemon pepper Aquavit is really... really good.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> It was all Old English at Garfield HS where I mostly skipped school and hung out with my loser friends.  At night school and summer school at Marshall High (where you end up when you mostly skip school), the Samoans always had Colt 45, which they were more than happy to share with me.  I never bought the 40s, but would drink them if offered.  If I were looking to score some beer myself, it was Lucky Lager, for some reason.  Probably because it was cheap and I liked the little visual puzzles that were under the bottle cap.
> 
> Ah the memories of my misspent youth.  I'm glad my kids weren't as screwed up as I was.


Garfield? Marshall? What city? Samoans? All this sounds very familiar. I went to Long Beach Polytechnic high school. Snoop was in my class and Cameron Diaz was a year behind me. Snoop put on our 30 year reunion after party. Slick Rick was there to perform amongst others.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Steve said:


> I approve.
> 
> I'm actually intrigued by the local stuff (Whistle Pig).  I have nothing against the major distilleries, but like to buy local when I can.  We have quite a few micro-distilleries around.   I buy my aquavit from Scratch Distillery up in Edmonds, WA.  They have a pretty good selection of gins, too (that's really what they're known for), but their lemon pepper Aquavit is really... really good.


Man you gotta go to the Multnomah whiskey library. It’s in Portland. Plan for it, not cheap! Join as a temp. Member. That way you can get an actual reservation. The food is divine.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 30, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> He definitely meets my standards. The two of us can split the scotch while him and kirk have the fruity drinks. And I'll buy/bring the steaks as long as you all grill/sear/reverse sear/call god to smite the steaks.
> 
> Now, we just have to find a way to convince Kirk to make the trip...


What part of the world are you in?


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Garfield? Marshall? What city? Samoans? All this sounds very familiar. I went to Long Beach Polytechnic high school. Snoop was in my class and Cameron Diaz was a year behind me. Snoop put on our 30 year reunion after party. Slick Rick was there to perform amongst others.


Seattle.  Closest brush with fame (well, almost fame) I had was I was a dishwasher in a cafe with a guy named Chad Channing, who was the drummer at the time for Nirvana.  Being in that area during the 80s was outstanding for local music.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What part of the world are you in?


New York currently. But planning on leaving soon, and the places we're looking at are all over the US. Wife is actually applying for an acting fellowship (I think that's the term) in california currently.


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## lklawson (Mar 31, 2022)

MouldyFish said:


> Well to anyone that sees this… thank you very much for all your replies I found them very helpful… I have decided not to start TKD, but am still on the look out for a possible 2nd art for when I get to a decent belt in karate (I will carry on karate as well as the other art)…. Any suggestions on what is a good style to add to karate???


Judo.


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## Hyoho (Mar 31, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Karate is any punching and kicking art. When I went through a martial art, I always finished it up to black belt and then I approached another art. You should devote your time and effort to  your art untill you reach black belt, and after that, then see about taking another martial art. One should devote learning all they want to learn from one art before going to another.
> I can only tell you what I did and it worked out fine. I wound up teaching Tracy Kenpo at their studio for a while before I broke away and began learning Ed Parker Kenpo. I preferred Ed Parker techniques. But you should make your own choice and if it doesn't work out, go back to where you were.
> Hope this helped.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


Do you really think so? A black belt is a qualified beginner. I was 6th Dan Kendo, 5th Dan Iaido before I moved on to more Kenjutsu. The kendo bled into it. Battojutsu was never a problem with similar fundamentals.


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## Gyakuto (Mar 31, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> Do you really think so? A black belt is a qualified beginner. I was 6th Dan Kendo, 5th Dan Iaido before I moved on to more Kenjutsu. The kendo bled into it. Battojutsu was never a problem with similar fundamentals.


Yes I’m with you Hyoho, ‘black belt’ is a pretty low grade if the suggestion is that it constitutes ‘proficiency’. After all, it’s about, what, 4-6 years of practise. Would you be proficient on piano or guitar in 4-6 years?


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes I’m with you Hyoho, ‘black belt’ is a pretty low grade if the suggestion is that it constitutes ‘proficiency’. After all, it’s about, what, 4-6 years of practise. Would you be proficient on piano or guitar in 4-6 years?


Heck yeah. Presuming you are consistently playing over 4 to 6 years, you would be pretty darned good.  Certainly competent.


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## Gyakuto (Mar 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Heck yeah. Presuming you are consistently playing over 4 to 6 years, you would be pretty darned good.  Certainly competent.






Hmmm….maybe. So black belt is a good degree of proficiency?


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## Gyakuto (Mar 31, 2022)

My other dojo….


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> After all, it’s about, what, 4-6 years of practise. Would you be proficient on piano or guitar in 4-6 years?


Well, I wasn't particularly proficient at guitar after 4-6 years of practice. Then again, I wasn't putting in that much daily practice, the practice I did put in wasn't focused or organized or high-quality, I didn't have consistent good instruction, and I was starting out in the bottom 5% of the population for natural talent.

Then again, I've seen other people who were solid professional players after 6 years of practice. Most of them probably started out with more natural talent, but the end result probably had more to do with the quantity and quality of their practice. The oft-quoted 10,000 hours road to mastery is a flawed overgeneralization (with many of the caveats from the original research typically omitted), but there's an element of truth to it. Someone who practices 5 hours per day consistently will reach that benchmark in 6 years. (And of course "proficiency" is a much lower bar than "world-class mastery.")

Taking it back to whatever a "black belt" might mean, it took me 15 years to earn my black belt in BJJ. That probably involved about 5000 hours of training time on the mats. I've known friends who earned their BJJ black belt in a much shorter time but who deserved the rank at least as much as I did. There was usually an element of talent involved, but I attribute it mostly to them training more consistently each week and at a higher intensity.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 31, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> Do you really think so? A black belt is a qualified beginner. I was 6th Dan Kendo, 5th Dan Iaido before I moved on to more Kenjutsu. The kendo bled into it. Battojutsu was never a problem with similar fundamentals.


The whole "black belt is really a beginner" thing is something black belts tell each other so that once they get one, they want to keep going.  That's why it's so arbitrary (last I checked some arts have 15-20 Dan levels, well suited for those with no other hobbies).

In reality, everyone is always learning new things about themselves and others, and nobody in their right mind should dismiss a black belt as only marginally proficient.  BJJ black belts are considered high level grapplers and I know a couple who would laugh if told they've only "mastered the basics".  Sure, if basic meant lethal grappling skills.


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## lklawson (Mar 31, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, I wasn't particularly proficient at guitar after 4-6 years of practice. Then again, I wasn't putting in that much daily practice, the practice I did put in wasn't focused or organized or high-quality, I didn't have consistent good instruction, and I was starting out in the bottom 5% of the population for natural talent.
> 
> Then again, I've seen other people who were solid professional players after 6 years of practice. Most of them probably started out with more natural talent, but the end result probably had more to do with the quantity and quality of their practice. The oft-quoted 10,000 hours road to mastery is a flawed overgeneralization (with many of the caveats from the original research typically omitted), but there's an element of truth to it. Someone who practices 5 hours per day consistently will reach that benchmark in 6 years. (And of course "proficiency" is a much lower bar than "world-class mastery.")
> 
> Taking it back to whatever a "black belt" might mean, it took me 15 years to earn my black belt in BJJ. That probably involved about 5000 hours of training time on the mats. I've known friends who earned their BJJ black belt in a much shorter time but who deserved the rank at least as much as I did. There was usually an element of talent involved, but I attribute it mostly to them training more consistently each week and at a higher intensity.


Not too long ago, I listened to an interview with a gent who wanted to be a pro guitar player.  He practiced at least 8 hours a day, every day.  He ended up with a long term, persistent, injury to his tendons and destroyed any chance at a career.  Now he makes Vaults and safes for  the firearms industry and leaves his guitar as a periodic hobby.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> View attachment 28293
> My other dojo….


Very impressive.  Someone with your obvious interest, I bet after 4 or 6 years, you were really good.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 31, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> View attachment 28292
> Hmmm….maybe. So black belt is a good degree of proficiency?


Horrifying.

Seriously though, black belts don't really measure anything other than a teacher figured you'd earned it.

There's no way to measure or mark the nuances involved.  Some black belts are probably overall great at their art, others are probably specialists who did just enough to pass on their weaker skills.

Then you've got the myriad of arts that slice up black belt more or less to make a profit.

And then you've got the "honorary" black belts that were handed out freely (for association) purposes), sure enough those are often added to the pile to build rep (any person with more than a handful of black belts probably qualifies).

Down here at the bottom you have the arts that don't even use belts, and keep it really simple (student, disciple, assistance instructor, etc).  In those places you could spend a decade in any of those roles, have no belt to show for it, but still be a very competent and competitive fighter.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Seattle.  Closest brush with fame (well, almost fame) I had was I was a dishwasher in a cafe with a guy named Chad Channing, who was the drummer at the time for Nirvana.  Being in that area during the 80s was outstanding for local music.


Mudhoney!


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Mudhoney!


Green River, when I was listening to them.  A lot happened after I joined the military.  I left when Nirvana was just about to release their first single (missed Bleach entirely).  Pearl Jam didn't exist yet (that I knew of) and Soundgarden hadn't made it big yet.  I was in Saudi Arabia when they all just took off.  

Other local bands I remember are the Fastbacks, Green Pajamas, Young Fresh Fellows...  there was an AM station (1590 KJET) that sponsored free concerts at the Mural Amphitheater in the Seattle Center each week during the summers.  They were great.  Free, local music.  Been a long time, but if I remember right, they would have two bands each week, who would play 1 hour sets.  

Speaking of Reggae, there was a Portland band called the Crazy 8s that is the first Ska band I can remember ever hearing.  Good stuff.  Haven't thought about these guys in years:


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 31, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Not too long ago, I listened to an interview with a gent who wanted to be a pro guitar player. He practiced at least 8 hours a day, every day. He ended up with a long term, persistent, injury to his tendons and destroyed any chance at a career. Now he makes Vaults and safes for the firearms industry and leaves his guitar as a periodic hobby.


This is part of why quality of practice is as important as quantity.

On the one hand you have people like me when I started learning guitar - messing around with no clear focus or plan or progression, getting minimal benefit from practice time.

On the other end of the spectrum you have people who push their physical limits without regard for the consequences. Being the kind of musician who practices 6 - 8 hours per day is like being a professional athlete who primarily uses the smallest, most delicate muscles and tendons. If you don't structure your workout intelligently, you'll end up with overuse injuries like the gentleman you interviewed. If he had more awareness of what could happen, there are a lot of things he could have done differently.

Warming up thoroughly before practice
Proper cooldowns, pre-hab exercises, massages, proper nutrition, etc
Focusing on proper ergonomic technique
Being aware of the early signs of overuse injuries so as to back off on intensity and/or quantity of physical practice
Devoting practice time as needed to non-physical aspects of practice (ear training, music theory, reading music, transcribing, recording techniques, etc). This could be especially useful during periods when the body needs more recovery time.
Seeking specialist medical advice and intervention before he reached the point of permanent injury
Then again, even if he did some of those things he still might have had problems. As I mentioned above, professional musicians at that level are essentially professional athletes of the small muscles. Professional athletes push themselves to their physical limits and sometimes have career ending injuries.


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2022)

Every year, gobs of kids in the 6th grade pick up an instrument for the first time in their lives.  And boy, let me tell you from personal experience... they suck.  After a year, you can tell who practiced 30 minutes a day and who didn't.  After 2 years, they are sounding pretty good as a group, and individually, it's remarkable how much progress they've made.  At three years, they're starting in high school, in the orchestra or marching band, or if they're lucky, at a school with a solid jazz program, and by the end of that year, they are darned good.

My alma mater, Garfield HS, has a badass jazz program.  They were amazing when I was there in the 80s, and are still amazing.  Very few of those kids over the decades have more than 6 years of experience, and I'd wager most have less than 4.  To be sure, they had Clarence Acox, who is like the Rickson Gracie of high school jazz instruction.  Mr. Acox retired recently, and was an institution in Seattle Jazz for over 40 years.






But even mediocre high school bands sound pretty dang good, and you know most of them have 4 to 6 years of practice.

Wow... blast from the past.  These guys were in my class.  Same program as above, but 40 years earlier.  I know most of them by name:


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## lklawson (Mar 31, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This is part of why quality of practice is as important as quantity.
> 
> On the one hand you have people like me when I started learning guitar - messing around with no clear focus or plan or progression, getting minimal benefit from practice time.
> 
> ...


All of this makes perfect sense.

I assume that an interested party could find some sort of "Trainer" which would be more than just a music shop teacher.  But such a specialized "Coach" would probably be hard to find and I guess probably only in certain geographic locations.  Where-ever the professional music hotbeds are, I guess.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gyakuto (Mar 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Very impressive.  Someone with your obvious interest, I bet after 4 or 6 years, you were really good.


If only Steve. When I played, my neighbours used to smash my windows. I convinced myself it was to hear me a little better!


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## Hyoho (Mar 31, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The whole "black belt is really a beginner" thing is something black belts tell each other so that once they get one, they want to keep going.  That's why it's so arbitrary (last I checked some arts have 15-20 Dan levels, well suited for those with no other hobbies).
> 
> In reality, everyone is always learning new things about themselves and others, and nobody in their right mind should dismiss a black belt as only marginally proficient.  BJJ black belts are considered high level grapplers and I know a couple who would laugh if told they've only "mastered the basics".  Sure, if basic meant lethal grappling skills.


Maybe that's some kind of consensus bandied about in the West and has got a bit twisted For sure when you get Shodan you realize you only have one foot on the ladder. A black belt or "shodan" is a qualified beginner is what all  Japanese would say. Be it Budo, shodo, shogi, go etc. After practice from elementary school to junior high on an almost daily basis they aspire to Shodan maybe Nidan entering high school and then get sandan. They will graduate uni with Yondan which is enough to get a job pertaining to their skills. The biggest drop out rate is Rokudan. "You still have lot to learn" is always what Japanese tell themselves and others. They even write it on Menkyo Kaiden (full license certification) So the system has been changed and bastardized. It might be worth while taking note of the fact that some Japanese Budo associations have removed 9th and 10dan. After all who grades these people to this rank anyway? The ninth graded the tenth! So regardless of all these ranks we practice and practice some more until what we do comes as an automatic response to a given situation. Having to think what you are doing hinders the process. If you learn something new and have not got the hang of it? The automated reaction is to do what you already know imprinted in brain and body. Herein lies the problem of doing two arts.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 31, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> Maybe that's some kind of consensus bandied about in the West and has got a bit twisted For sure when you get Shodan you realize you only have one foot on the ladder. A black belt or "shodan" is a qualified beginner is what all  Japanese would say. Be it Budo, shodo, shogi, go etc. After practice from elementary school to junior high on an almost daily basis they aspire to Shodan maybe Nidan entering high school and then get sandan. They will graduate uni with Yondan which is enough to get a job pertaining to their skills. The biggest drop out rate is Rokudan. "You still have lot to learn" is always what Japanese tell themselves and others. They even write it on Menkyo Kaiden (full license certification) So the system has been changed and bastardized. It might be worth while taking note of the fact that some Japanese Budo associations have removed 9th and 10dan. After all who grades these people to this rank anyway? The ninth graded the tenth!


I think it depends.  Perhaps within Japanese systems this holds true, or is a notion that is widely accepted.  Outside of certain culturally-based norms, I do not believe this is automatically accepted.  From my own personal perspective, I trained in a system (not Japanese or Okinawan, but with a claim on Japanese roots) in which I earned Shodan.  As I continued to train toward Nidan, it became clear to me that the additional material was superfluous and actually a hinderance to developing higher skill.  It was cumbersome and mostly spread your efforts too thin to give any of it adequate focus and attention.  In that example, my opinion is that greater skill would have been possible by reducing the amount of material in the curriculum, giving less material greater attention, which could arguably reduce the number of rank levels that made sense to keep.  In this case, if you reached Shodan, you had gained what skill and knowledge that the system had to offer.  The rest of the curriculum was simply more, not representative of greater depth of knowledge or higher skill.  

My caveat is simply that greater skill comes from additional practice, not from piling on more material.  In my example, I concluded that rank beyond Shodan really was pointless.  

I realize my example is just one and may not represent the reality found in other systems.  One’s mileage may vary. 


> So regardless of all these ranks we practice and practice some more until what we do comes as an automatic response to a given situation. Having to think what you are doing hinders the process. If you learn something new and have not got the hang of it? The automated reaction is to do what you already know imprinted in brain and body. Herein lies the problem of doing two arts.


I am in agreement in that I believe for most people, trying to learn more than one system is probably problematic.  But I don’t agree with your comments here.  What this implies is that one can have only a single option for any given situation (for example, being attacked with a punch of a certain type and from a certain direction) that can become an automatic response, and having more than one option becomes overwhelming and impossible to function.  I do not agree with that.  Any single functional system ought to have multiple options for dealing with an attack.  Multiple systems would likely result in more options, and eventually there may be too many with which to keep sharp.  But having additional options from another system in and of itself isn’t a problem.  

In my opinion, the problem lies in having a consistent methodology in things like power generation.  When you try to keep separate methodologies from different systems for delivering the same technique, that is where they body gets confused.  That is where trying to train multiple systems can be a problem.


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## Hyoho (Mar 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> My caveat is simply that greater skill comes from additional practice, not from piling on more material.  In my example, I concluded that rank beyond Shodan really was pointless.
> 
> I realize my example is just one and may not represent the reality found in other systems.  One’s mileage may vary.
> 
> ...


I would not have though any system revolved around one single option although fundamentals are the key. But in gradings I examine we do look for that one technique that can be performed successfully for Shodan. Nidan asks for more, Sandan require some class and actual techniques. It's up to the instructor to pile on different attacks that we have to deal with in daily practice. With that, hard work and practice should make a grading like walk in the park.

One of the things that actually put me off graded arts was the constant question, "What grade are you taking next". It was expected of you to grade. Then again the president of an association did ask me why I did not grade anymore. He said, "Maybe you don't want to but your students will be pleased and proud if you grade up"


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## Flying Crane (Mar 31, 2022)

Sorry, were you commenting on what I said?  Did your comments get deleted somehow?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> Karate is any punching and kicking art. When I went through a martial art, I always finished it up to black belt and then I approached another art. You should devote your time and effort to  your art untill you reach black belt, and after that, then see about taking another martial art. One should devote learning all they want to learn from one art before going to another.
> I can only tell you what I did and it worked out fine. I wound up teaching Tracy Kenpo at their studio for a while before I broke away and began learning Ed Parker Kenpo. I preferred Ed Parker techniques. But you should make your own choice and if it doesn't work out, go back to where you were.
> Hope this helped.
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


That’s too many shoulds for a subjective matter. There are a lot of things to consider, and some folks do quite well starting multiple arts at the same time.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 31, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> I would not have though any system revolved around one single option although fundamentals are the key. But in gradings I examine we do look for that one technique that can be performed successfully for Shodan. Nidan asks for more, Sandan require some class and actual techniques. It's up to the instructor to pile on different attacks that we have to deal with in daily practice. With that, hard work and practice should make a grading like walk in the park.


Fair enough, and what I was really trying to do was point out the implications of your earlier statements, if followed to their conclusion.  Perhaps that wasnt what you meant, but what you said leads to that conclusion. 


> One of the things that actually put me off graded arts was the constant question, "What grade are you taking next". It was expected of you to grade. Then again the president of an association did ask me why I did not grade anymore. He said, "Maybe you don't want to but your students will be pleased and proud if you grade up"


Again fair enough but in my example, my conclusion came down to: I don’t want to learn this new material, it does not help my growth and in fact will likely hinder it, and I cannot justify that.  Needless to say, I no longer practice that method. 

this was simply my experience in one particular art and I don’t claim that it is consistent with what others experience, particularly in other systems.  But it is one example that undermines the notion that some kind of “higher” instruction is given at higher Dan ranks.  Perhaps in some cases, but most definitely not all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2022)

Steve said:


> Isn't that cause and effect?  That is right sometimes?  Through dumb luck?   What did I miss? (genuine question, because I read what you say above, and it's just saying the same thing differently.)


I think it’s about observable cause (searing, relaxed muscles) and HOW it creates the effect (tastiness, power). The explanation for how x begets y is what is often off in folk wisdom, even when it’s based on good observational evidence.


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## Steve (Mar 31, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think it’s about observable cause (searing, relaxed muscles) and HOW it creates the effect (tastiness, power). The explanation for how x begets y is what is often off in folk wisdom, even when it’s based on good observational evidence.


Ugh.  Okay.  I never thought I'd get tired of talking about food. But here's the thing, Gerry., searing meat before cooking it isn't always better. Sometimes, it's not as good.  And if you don't challenge folk wisdom, you would never know it.  Like @lklawson isn't curious about whether he could cook his steak better.  He was, I would guess, shown how to cook a steak at some point, and has done it that way for 20 years.  He was told one way was better, and he experienced some success, and so good enough for him.  And in this thread, he ignorantly asserted that this is "THE BEST" (his all caps, not mine) way to do it.  And yet... it isn't.

Now, take all of that, including @lklawson's stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted, and apply that to martial arts.  Then take all of that and apply it to presumptions folks have about whether people can learn two things at the same time.    There is the point.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 31, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> undermines the notion that some kind of “higher” instruction is given at higher Dan ranks. Perhaps in some cases, but most definitely not all.


Naturally this depends on the system and school.  As has been said, most all of a style's techniques are likely learned by shodan.   But by no means does this imply there is no more to learn.  Several considerations regarding "higher" instruction:

Curriculum - In my style's curriculum, _weapon skills_ are generally required for 2nd, 3rd/4th degree.  (bo, sai, tonfa).  Other schools may have nunchaku, knife or sticks to teach, or _defense against weapons_.  Perhaps_ multi-attacker defense._  Also, _advanced bunkai_ for kata may be part of post-shodan instruction and extend into the middle Dan ranks.  What about basic _medical training_ to address common injuries one may suffer from training or combat? Such knowledge was certainly a part of advanced kung fu and karate training in the past but is very rare nowadays. 


Proficiency - While most all techniques have been learned to a competent degree (hopefully) by 1st degree, there is still a lot of room for improvement, especially in executing techniques more fluidly, naturally, and more effortlessly.  These qualities take more time to develop than just gross mechanical skills and so are things that can be considered for post-shodan ranks.

Self-study - Commitment and dedication should be exhibited by those continuing thru the dan ranks, and this can be exhibited by personal investigations into MA history, bunkai and philosophy so as to get a deeper understanding of their art.  Some of the attributes mentioned in "Proficiency" most likely can be achieved only with one's personal exploration of the techniques, and their own body.  After a certain level we can be our own teachers.

By the above examples, one can see there is plenty of material for a shodan to look forward to and work on for decades after getting a black belt.  And, providing one has diligently worked all this time, once one gets to 7th, 8th or 9th degrees in their later years, perhaps a more abstract and personal transformation is realized.


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## MrBigglesworth (Apr 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Don't actually change your height any more than jumping up in the air.
> They do make your legs and butt look good though.



Some people's more so than others.


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## lklawson (Apr 1, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> Maybe that's some kind of consensus bandied about in the West and has got a bit twisted For sure when you get Shodan you realize you only have one foot on the ladder. A black belt or "shodan" is a qualified beginner is what all  Japanese would say. Be it Budo, shodo, shogi, go etc. After practice from elementary school to junior high on an almost daily basis they aspire to Shodan maybe Nidan entering high school and then get sandan. They will graduate uni with Yondan which is enough to get a job pertaining to their skills. The biggest drop out rate is Rokudan. "You still have lot to learn" is always what Japanese tell themselves and others. They even write it on Menkyo Kaiden (full license certification) So the system has been changed and bastardized. It might be worth while taking note of the fact that some Japanese Budo associations have removed 9th and 10dan. After all who grades these people to this rank anyway? The ninth graded the tenth! So regardless of all these ranks we practice and practice some more until what we do comes as an automatic response to a given situation. Having to think what you are doing hinders the process. If you learn something new and have not got the hang of it? The automated reaction is to do what you already know imprinted in brain and body. Herein lies the problem of doing two arts.


The older I get, the more systems I see, sample, and train, the more I come to realize that "fighting is fighting."  While every system seems to have its own unique flavor, when you drill down to the base there are certain universal truths which function.  There are certain fundamentals common to boxing, karate, fencing, silat, krabi krabong, destreza, bagua, etc.  Timing, footwork, distance, etc., all start to look similar when you know what to look for.  There are only so many methods of power generation.  There are only so many tactics and strategies for individual fighting.  You know that old saw that ends with '...a punch is just a punch'?  ...yeah, that.

You just have to find the subtleties. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Apr 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Ugh.  Okay.  I never thought I'd get tired of talking about food. But here's the thing, Gerry., searing meat before cooking it isn't always better. Sometimes, it's not as good.  And if you don't challenge folk wisdom, you would never know it.  Like @lklawson isn't curious about whether he could cook his steak better.  He was, I would guess, shown how to cook a steak at some point, and has done it that way for 20 years.  He was told one way was better, and he experienced some success, and so good enough for him.  And in this thread, he ignorantly asserted that this is "THE BEST" (his all caps, not mine) way to do it.  And yet... it isn't.


Nope.  I actually read a bunch and experimented with several different methods until I found what I liked.  And what I like best is a marinade and then, as I already told you, just chuck it on the grill.  I like adding wet hardwood chips to smoke it a bit too. 

I'm not too bothered about how you prefer to cook your steaks.  If you like it, then you like it.




Steve said:


> Now, take all of that, including @lklawson's stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted, and apply that to martial arts.  Then take all of that and apply it to presumptions folks have about whether people can learn two things at the same time.    There is the point.


Do you ever get tired of just assuming stuff?  Is it a stubborn insistence that you believe you know what I think even after I've already wrote something in direct contradiction?  Or maybe you just weren't paying attention?

Even beyond the "cook a steak" thing, I've told you multiple (1) times (2)  now (3), that a lot of things folks believed was the reason why things worked actually weren't, but the important part at the end of they day is the result.  So when you say silly things like "stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted" it tells everyone that either you weren't paying attention or you have an ax to grind.

So, no, "chi" doesn't toughen your hands, little demons don't make popcorn, and searing doesn't seal in juices.  But you still get toughened hands, fluffy popcorn, and tasty steaks if you do these things.  The "old timers" just made their best guess about why something worked and were often wrong.  But it still worked.

Am I going to have to tell you the same thing yet again?


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## Hyoho (Apr 1, 2022)

lklawson said:


> The older I get, the more systems I see, sample, and train, the more I come to realize that "fighting is fighting."  While every system seems to have its own unique flavor, when you drill down to the base there are certain universal truths which function.  There are certain fundamentals common to boxing, karate, fencing, silat, krabi krabong, destreza, bagua, etc.  Timing, footwork, distance, etc., all start to look similar when you know what to look for.  There are only so many methods of power generation.  There are only so many tactics and strategies for individual fighting.  You know that old saw that ends with '...a punch is just a punch'?  ...yeah, that.
> 
> You just have to find the subtleties.
> 
> ...


I guess the main thing that has allowed me to do more than one to a high degree is the fighting spirit common to all. And the all out effort I know that I will have to muster up to separate what I am going rather than mix it. My Sensei/Soke have always been very intolerant. They show you something and you have but a couple of attempts to get it right. One Soke did ask me once about why I always managed to get things right. I told him, 'Because I go home every day and work on it some more".


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> Ugh.  Okay.  I never thought I'd get tired of talking about food. But here's the thing, Gerry., searing meat before cooking it isn't always better. Sometimes, it's not as good.  And if you don't challenge folk wisdom, you would never know it.  Like @lklawson isn't curious about whether he could cook his steak better.  He was, I would guess, shown how to cook a steak at some point, and has done it that way for 20 years.  He was told one way was better, and he experienced some success, and so good enough for him.  And in this thread, he ignorantly asserted that this is "THE BEST" (his all caps, not mine) way to do it.  And yet... it isn't.
> 
> Now, take all of that, including @lklawson's stubborn adherence to the folk wisdom he has adopted, and apply that to martial arts.  Then take all of that and apply it to presumptions folks have about whether people can learn two things at the same time.    There is the point.


Sometimes, for what we want from a situation, “works” is good enough for our needs/wants. There are things I can (and know how to) do better when cooking, but don’t find the extra effort worth the result. 

I don’t think the discussion around folk wisdom has been at all about the original topic of the thread, but more about the process that can produce incorrect understanding but correct outcomes. Of course, that doesn’t begin to describe all of “folk wisdom” - plenty of it is, as you suggested, misattributed causality.


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## Steve (Apr 2, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Nope.  I actually read a bunch and experimented with several different methods until I found what I liked.  And what I like best is a marinade and then, as I already told you, just chuck it on the grill.  I like adding wet hardwood chips to smoke it a bit too.


All of this is fine. As I have said before, you’ve said a lot of things.  For example, you said this:


lklawson said:


> 20 years ago I was just chucking my steaks on a grill, same as now, and I never gave a **** how you or anyone else cooked yours as long as you were happy with the results.  Same as now.


This doesn’t even imply curiosity.  Those read as contradictory to me.


lklawson said:


> Exactly the opposite. People would see a result, then they'd try to figure out why that result was achieved by the process they used.  Sometimes they'd be wrong about the why.  But the result was still the same.


And sometimes… as with the analogy I used about searing steaks, they were wrong and that led a lot of people to not even consider other, better ways to do things for 150 years.

Had you not said, earlier in the thread, that searing steak is the best way to do it, everything else you’ve said would make more sense.  But


Gerry Seymour said:


> Sometimes, for what we want from a situation, “works” is good enough for our needs/wants. There are things I can (and know how to) do better when cooking, but don’t find the extra effort worth the result.
> 
> I don’t think the discussion around folk wisdom has been at all about the original topic of the thread, but more about the process that can produce incorrect understanding but correct outcomes. Of course, that doesn’t begin to describe all of “folk wisdom” - plenty of it is, as you suggested, misattributed causality.


it all started because conventional wisdom says it’s harder to learn two things at once than one at a time.  Which, like dealing in juices etc and blah blah.


----------

