# Do you think its to dangerous drinking in different countries other than the USA?



## Chrisinmd (Jul 26, 2019)

*Do you think its to dangerous drinking in different countries other than the USA?*
Do you think its to dangerous drinking in different countries other than the USA?

I was having a conversation with a family member today. He is a long time AA member and true believer. I mentioned I was going to the Bahamas on vacation. He brought up the subject that you have to be very careful when drinking in foreign countries. He mentioned there is a lot of people who get sick and die from tainted alcohol in foreign countries that don't have the same safety and manufacturing standards as we do in the good old USA. He mentioned the recent deaths of tourists in the Dominican Republic that some people are linking to possibly tainted alcohol. Although that hasn't been proven as of yet and they are still investigating from what I understand. So who knows what the deal is down in the Dominican Republic in reality.

Anyway anybody have concerns or think its a unreasonably high risk of being served tainted alcohol when your out of the country on vacation? Now I have personally drank quite a bit overseas and never run into any issue. Some in Europe (France, Iceland) which I don't think is any more dangerous then the USA at all. Not dealing with to many 3rd world countries in Europe with no safety standards at all.

South of the border I guess I could see a bit more of a concern I guess. Although I have had many a drink in Mexico and Costa Rica and never had any issue myself. But I guess when your dealing with these impoverished nations I could see them possibly cutting corners on health and safety in alcohol production.

Although I guess I drank Corona's imported from Mexico or other imported alcohol on occasion here in the United States. So isn't that the same thing as drinking it down there? I don't know if a Corona imported into the USA as to meet higher safety standards then on one purchased at a resort in Mexico?

Anyway thoughts?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 26, 2019)

I think a lot of those fears (like the recent deaths in dr) are blown out of propertion. They've got a couple million tourists each year, and like 35 of them died, is that right? Nothing about that seems suspicipus to me...people partying more than their used to end up having medical issues and dont see a doctor because they're on vacation and it can wait till they get back...but sometimes it cant, and because they didnt see anyone, no one knows the cause. Plus again, its a double digit number out of millions of tourists.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

My wife and I are divers. We travel. A lot. I've had drinks in pretty much every country in Western Europe and most of the Caribbean. I've had lots of drinks in Mexico. Lots in the Bahamas. Lots in the Netherlands Antilles. Lots in the Caymans. Lots in the Virgin Islands. Lots in Honduras. Never a lot at one time, because I don't like to be drunk. But plenty, over the years.
I've seen people sick because of the booze in all those places. But that's because they don't know when to stop, not because there's anything wrong with the booze.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I think a lot of those fears (like the recent deaths in dr) are blown out of propertion. They've got a couple million tourists each year, and like 35 of them died, is that right? Nothing about that seems suspicipus to me...people partying more than their used to end up having medical issues and dont see a doctor because they're on vacation and it can wait till they get back...but sometimes it cant, and because they didnt see anyone, no one knows the cause. Plus again, its a double digit number out of millions of tourists.



It's a trivially small number, when the total number of tourists is considered. And, too, the fact that they're vacationing increases the risk of certain health problems. The condition known as "Holiday Heart" is aptly named.
It's just fear mongering.
Sue, Kim and I went diving in Mexico when the Swine Flu panic was at it's peak. It was lovely. The beaches and dive sites were practically empty, and none of the restaurants required reservations. I tried to find someone sick, so I could quarantine us for another week or so, but I couldn't find anyone who looked remotely sick.


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## granfire (Jul 26, 2019)

it depends on what country you go to, if they brewed the beer on the back porch with the goats lapping from it, or the Bahamas. 
For starters, this mindset of your family member is one of arrogance that only the US does things right (hint: it's not true)
you won't vacation in the slums where people might be tempted to make moonshine (widely available in the US, the illegal stuff, not the sanitized branded stuff in the liquor store) 
you will be on the sunny side of town, where they don't want their customers to die from bathtub gin! 
and unlike propaganda spread by certain circles, most destination countries are actually civilized. They don't want their customers to die either. It is - after all - bad for business. 

the risk Americans run when they drink abroad is that they drink too much, because they are on vacation, don't drink at home, and that drink in the coconut/pineapple contains a ton of strong spirits, and after the third one, because it goes down like juice, and you can barely taste the alcohol.
Then suddenly the floor hits you in the face when you get up.
A huge problem for females, as vacation mode lowers your sense of self preservation and people think since it's paradize, everybody is sweet and kind. (Natalee Holloway comes to mind, poor thing)


A lot of alcohol is produced abroad! the Bahamas are one of the islands were rum is being made. 

Some places it is not advised to use the ice. But let's face it, there are many places in the US right now where one should not consume the tap water either. 
and getting Montezuma's Revenge is a matter of the unaccustomed cuisine that messes with your intestinal flora. 
A good remedy is to have a shot before and after each meal.

And yeah, AA members also believe that you become a raging alcoholic with the first drink....


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2019)

Don't drink the water or use ice cubes in China. The alcohol is ok, generally and boiled water, for tea, is generally OK as well...but there are a lot of things you should not do in China, as it applies to food


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

granfire said:


> Some places it is not advised to use the ice.



And that, in many cases, is also nonsense.
I've been told by well meaning friends many times not to drink the water and to beware the ice cubes when we travel to Cozumel. They probably don't know that we've been on Cozumel about 50 times.
Here's the thing. Cozumel runs a desalination plant for most of it's water (in other words, it's plenty pure) or imports it.
The idea that the resorts are going to make you sick is silly. They want you to come back.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> And that, in many cases, is also nonsense.
> I've been told by well meaning friends many times not to drink the water and to beware the ice cubes when we travel to Cozumel. They probably don't know that we've been on Cozumel about 50 times.
> Here's the thing. Cozumel runs a desalination plant for most of it's water (in other words, it's plenty pure) or imports it.
> The idea that the resorts are going to make you sick is silly. They want you to come back.



Actually the ice warning comes from the CDC Center for Disease Control and Prevention

_Ice_
Avoid ice in developing countries; it was likely made with tap water.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually the ice warning comes from the CDC Center for Disease Control and Prevention
> 
> _Ice_
> Avoid ice in developing countries; it was likely made with tap water.



And since it's a Government Agency, it's _*always*_ right. Especially when speaking in massive generalities.
#facepalm
The CDC has been guilty of more than a little fear mongering too, over the years. Because budget increases.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> And since it's a Government Agency, it's _*always*_ right. Especially when speaking in massive generalities.
> #facepalm
> The CDC has been guilty of more than a little fear mongering too, over the years. Because budget increases.



Not sure why I bother when you are in a mood....not to worry, I won't bother again


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## frank raud (Jul 26, 2019)

I think it's dangerous to get drunk in unfamiliar territory, but wouldn't abstain from having a drink or two. There are shady characters in lots of tourist type places that prey on the tourists, not just in foreign countries. If you're staggering down a dark street, you are a walking cheeseburger to these types.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not sure why I bother when you are in a mood....not to worry, I won't bother again



I didn't think I was in a mood. I just think broad generalities tend to be ridiculous. As is the massive amount of fear mongering engaged in by government and "journalists" these days.


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

I probably won't leave my home country again. Too much here I still want to see.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> I probably won't leave my home country again. Too much here I still want to see.



But the diving in the US just isn't that good.


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> But the diving in the US just isn't that good.



I suppose it isn't, no. A lot of people dive here, but I don't know anything about how good it is, I don't really do water in any way, shape or form.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> I suppose it isn't, no. A lot of people dive here, but I don't know anything about how good it is, I don't really do water in any way, shape or form.



There are a couple dives there that should be "bucket list" items for any diver.
One is the Manta Ray dive. It's at night. You dangle off a line at 70-80 feet and shine lights up. That attracts plankton, which attracts Manta Rays. 
The other is the back wall at Molokini. It's another deep water dive, but there's a good chance of seeing schools of Hammerheads. It's an advanced dive, however, because the seas tend to be very rough, which makes getting in the boat a challenge, and because the currents tend to be very fast.
Other than those two, Hawaii is good, but not great.
Above water, it's one of the most spectacular and amazing places in the world.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

granfire said:


> it depends on what country you go to, if they brewed the beer on the back porch with the goats lapping from it, or the Bahamas.
> For starters, this mindset of your family member is one of arrogance that only the US does things right (hint: it's not true)
> you won't vacation in the slums where people might be tempted to make moonshine (widely available in the US, the illegal stuff, not the sanitized branded stuff in the liquor store)
> you will be on the sunny side of town, where they don't want their customers to die from bathtub gin!
> ...


And to the point about ice - the danger with water in many cases isn't even that it's more contaminated than in the US. Rather the danger is that it's contaminated differently, and our bodies aren't equipped to deal with what's in their water. That's why I got sick in Paris on my first trip there, but locals can drink the water just fine.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually the ice warning comes from the CDC Center for Disease Control and Prevention
> 
> _Ice_
> Avoid ice in developing countries; it was likely made with tap water.


Always boil your ice before use.


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are a couple dives there that should be "bucket list" items for any diver.
> One is the Manta Ray dive. It's at night. You dangle off a line at 70-80 feet and shine lights up. That attracts plankton, which attracts Manta Rays.
> The other is the back wall at Molokini. It's another deep water dive, but there's a good chance of seeing schools of Hammerheads. It's an advanced dive, however, because the seas tend to be very rough, which makes getting in the boat a challenge, and because the currents tend to be very fast.
> Other than those two, Hawaii is good, but not great.
> Above water, it's one of the most spectacular and amazing places in the world.



I understand this on an intellectual level of course. And it certainly must be amazing.
But to non water person like myself it's like reading the script of a horror movie.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> I understand this on an intellectual level of course. And it certainly must be amazing.
> But to non water person like myself it's like reading the script of a horror movie.



Buka, if I'm ever on Hawaii again, you're going diving with us.


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## granfire (Jul 26, 2019)

Buka said:


> I probably won't leave my home country again. Too much here I still want to see.


the water isn't safe in many places!


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## granfire (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Buka, if I'm ever on Hawaii again, you're going diving with us.


He'll get lost!


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## Buka (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Buka, if I'm ever on Hawaii again, you're going diving with us.



Brother, I'll cook for you, train with you, learn from you and take you up my mountain. But there ain't no way in hell I'm doing anything in water deeper than my waist. 

Used to. But learned my lesson and got out alive. Besides, my wife says that if I go into deep water again, that I shouldn't come home.......I do admit that is kind of tempting.


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## granfire (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I didn't think I was in a mood. I just think broad generalities tend to be ridiculous. As is the massive amount of fear mongering engaged in by government and "journalists" these days.


it's the soccer mom type with the inbred arrogance that no other country could possibly as developed in X or Y. Like you can only get quality medical care in the US (bwahahaha, as if) or medication. 
or clean foods. ( the FDA has always allowed a certain amount of foreign matter in commercially processed food items. As to the identity of said foreign matter? Better not ask!) 
Same with the water. 
back in the day, some Mediterranean islands didn't have that desalination down yet, and the tap water was salty. Or on the mainland the tourists with the package deals would get bottled water, the locals a carafe,  
And the one time my dad thought he should abstain during the vacation, he got terribly sick! We had to call the hotel doctor! 
After that it was back to a shot of the good stuff before and after every meal, and a shot of Espresso as digestive. 

The booze is generally safe, consumed in moderation. Don't get wasted in foreign places though.


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## dvcochran (Jul 26, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> And that, in many cases, is also nonsense.
> I've been told by well meaning friends many times not to drink the water and to beware the ice cubes when we travel to Cozumel. They probably don't know that we've been on Cozumel about 50 times.
> Here's the thing. Cozumel runs a desalination plant for most of it's water (in other words, it's plenty pure) or imports it.
> The idea that the resorts are going to make you sick is silly. They want you to come back.


Agree. Get outside of Quintana Roo and it can be a different story. I always drink from a sealed bottle when far away from the tourist areas.


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## jobo (Jul 26, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Actually the ice warning comes from the CDC Center for Disease Control and Prevention
> 
> _Ice_
> Avoid ice in developing countries; it was likely made with tap water.


general if your going to consume conteminated water mixing it with alcohol is a good idea, it will kill nearly anything


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## jobo (Jul 26, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> *Do you think its to dangerous drinking in different countries other than the USA?*
> Do you think its to dangerous drinking in different countries other than the USA?
> 
> I was having a conversation with a family member today. He is a long time AA member and true believer. I mentioned I was going to the Bahamas on vacation. He brought up the subject that you have to be very careful when drinking in foreign countries. He mentioned there is a lot of people who get sick and die from tainted alcohol in foreign countries that don't have the same safety and manufacturing standards as we do in the good old USA. He mentioned the recent deaths of tourists in the Dominican Republic that some people are linking to possibly tainted alcohol. Although that hasn't been proven as of yet and they are still investigating from what I understand. So who knows what the deal is down in the Dominican Republic in reality.
> ...


alcohol is POison, I'm wondering how likely it is to be mixed with anything more harmful than what you've paid for ?


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 26, 2019)

jobo said:


> alcohol is POison, I'm wondering how likely it is to be mixed with anything more harmful than what you've paid for ?



A little bit of AA propaganda.  Alcohol being a poison they say.  If your going to say that Alcohol is a poison so is about half the stuff we consume.  Sugar, red meat, etc.  Just because something may cause health issues in the long run dosent make it a "poison"

There is a huge difference between having a can of Bud light or a cup of a true poison such as Arsenic or Cyncaide.  If you have a 12 pack of beer a day for 10 years you may very well develop some health issues.  If you have any Arsenic or Cyncaide your likely dead in 10 minutes.  Big difference


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 26, 2019)

granfire said:


> you will be on the sunny side of town, where they don't want their customers to die from bathtub gin!
> and unlike propaganda spread by certain circles, most destination countries are actually civilized. They don't want their customers to die either. It is - after all - bad for business.
> 
> Some places it is not advised to use the ice. But let's face it, there are many places in the US right now where one should not consume the tap water either.
> ...



Montezuma's Revenge. lol  Never heard of that term for it before! Had a bad case of it in Costa Rica my first time there.  Not fun!  

Agree it would be very bad business for these destination countries to be killing there customers with tainted booze.  Ive read in the Newspaper a couple days ago the Dominican Republic has seen a lot of cancellations since the story broke.  So the Dominican government has stepped up increased inspections of the alcohol industry.  So probably now its the safest time to visit


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## granfire (Jul 27, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Montezuma's Revenge. lol  Never heard of that term for it before! Had a bad case of it in Costa Rica my first time there.  Not fun!
> 
> Agree it would be very bad business for these destination countries to be killing there customers with tainted booze.  Ive read in the Newspaper a couple days ago the Dominican Republic has seen a lot of cancellations since the story broke.  So the Dominican government has stepped up increased inspections of the alcohol industry.  So probably now its the safest time to visit


their problem was people having coronaries, different things.


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## Buka (Jul 27, 2019)

I know one thing, I won't be going to the Dominican Republic any time soon.


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## jobo (Jul 27, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> A little bit of AA propaganda.  Alcohol being a poison they say.  If your going to say that Alcohol is a poison so is about half the stuff we consume.  Sugar, red meat, etc.  Just because something may cause health issues in the long run dosent make it a "poison"
> 
> There is a huge difference between having a can of Bud light or a cup of a true poison such as Arsenic or Cyncaide.  If you have a 12 pack of beer a day for 10 years you may very well develop some health issues.  If you have any Arsenic or Cyncaide your likely dead in 10 minutes.  Big difference


no no alcohol is a poison, people regularly get diagnosed with alcohol poisoning, I've never heard of a case of acute red meat poisoning, , it may or may not be good for you long term(, but having an extra slice of beef isn't going to see you rushed to hospital,)but it's isnt classified as a poSion,
if your taking in a poison like alcohol at a faster rate than your system can remove it, other wise known as getting dunk, then you are posioning yourself


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> no no alcohol is a poison, people regularly get diagnosed with alcohol poisoning, I've never heard of a case of acute red meat poisoning, , it may or may not be good for you long term(, but having an extra slice of beef isn't going to see you rushed to hospital,)but it's isnt classified as a poSion,
> if your taking in a poison like alcohol at a faster rate than your system can remove it, other wise known as getting dunk, then you are posioning yourself



Its the dose that makes the poison.  For example I take a pill out of my aspirin bottle it a medication.  Take the whole bottle its a poison.


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## jobo (Jul 28, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Its the dose that makes the poison.  For example I take a pill out of my aspirin bottle it a medication.  Take the whole bottle its a poison.


well no, technically it's your bodies reaction to what ever that determines if it's a poison our not, if it tries to re!move it from your system as quickly as possible its a poison  if not its it isn't, the dose does indeed determine how harmful it may be,in the short term, but prolong low does are still harmful in the long term, but doesn't alter if it is or isn't a poison.

there's no safe limit for alcohol, every mouthful does you harm, if it's very low doses it can take many years before the issues become notable to you, but very low doses are not the societal norm. there no point doing it at all unless you get at least mildy intoxicantated .its a mood enhancer after all, if the dose you take doesn't enhance your mood you may as well drink water, if it does it has caused you irreparable harm

I see your eqauting it with medicine, if you can't tell the difference between alcohol and medicine you have a problem, asprin in the specified dose doesn't cause you harm, alcohol in any dose that its commercially sold,does


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## granfire (Jul 28, 2019)

Paracelsus said 'all things are poison, it depends on the dose' 
even an overabundance of water can kill.


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## jobo (Jul 28, 2019)

granfire said:


> Paracelsus said 'all things are poison, it depends on the dose'
> even an overabundance of water can kill.


it can, but it doesn't poison you


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## granfire (Jul 28, 2019)

jobo said:


> it can, but it doesn't poison you


you can split hairs at Infinitum. Poison you can survive, being dead not so much
Or rather Chemo is poison, we all agree?
and yet, it's used to cure stuff.
Antibiotics are also poison. They kill germs. 

It's a matter of the dose.


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## jobo (Jul 29, 2019)

granfire said:


> you can split hairs at Infinitum. Poison you can survive, being dead not so much
> Or rather Chemo is poison, we all agree?
> and yet, it's used to cure stuff.
> Antibiotics are also poison. They kill germs.
> ...


your claiming EvERYTHING is poison, but that is dramatically untrue, its somewhat debatable if chemo is poison, but most antibiotics are certainly not, they don't even poison bacteria, thats not how they work


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## granfire (Jul 29, 2019)

jobo said:


> your claiming EvERYTHING is poison, but that is dramatically untrue, its somewhat debatable if chemo is poison, but most antibiotics are certainly not, they don't even poison bacteria, thats not how they work


My point is that even something as essential as water - one must drink about 2 quarts a day - is deadly when over consumed, while something inherent deadly - like arsenic - can be consumed in small doses without killing you.


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## jobo (Jul 29, 2019)

granfire said:


> My point is that even something as essential as water - one must drink about 2 quarts a day - is deadly when over consumed, while something inherent deadly - like arsenic - can be consumed in small doses without killing you.


no you used to term poison, and have given a list of things that are not poison. arguing that water us poison as it very occasionally leads to death, is much the same as arguing that sharks are poison as they very occasionally kill people and nether are poison at all, though potentially harmful if your terminally stupid or at least with sharks extremely unlucky

ironically, an excess of water can be harmful as it removes poison from your body, most notably sodium, so it's it's anti poison properties that make it harmful


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2019)

jobo said:


> no you used to term poison, and have given a list of things that are not poison. arguing that water us poison as it very occasionally leads to death, is much the same as arguing that sharks are poison as they very occasionally kill people and nether are poison at all, though potentially harmful if your terminally stupid or at least with sharks extremely unlucky
> 
> ironically, an excess of water can be harmful as it removes poison from your body, most notably sodium, so it's it's anti poison properties that make it harmful


You're going to blame someone else for using the word you brought up?


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## jobo (Jul 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You're going to blame someone else for using the word you brought up?


im not blaming him for anything, I'm teasing him for not knowing that water isn't poisonous, I'm sure his isn't to blame for that, possibly the school system, but then it probably should have occurred to him humans are largely made up of water, so maybe he is to blame?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 29, 2019)

I was avoiding posting here after my initial post, but wanted to add one thing. Driniing alcohol to the point that its deadly is called alcohol poisoning. In laymans terms, theres too much alcohol in your body for your body to be able to process/handle.

Doing the same with water is called overhydration, or water intoxication, and really just means that you diluted your sodium too much with water, not an issue of the water itself. AFAIK no one refers to it as water poisoning

Take from that what you will.


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## dvcochran (Jul 29, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are a couple dives there that should be "bucket list" items for any diver.
> One is the Manta Ray dive. It's at night. You dangle off a line at 70-80 feet and shine lights up. That attracts plankton, which attracts Manta Rays.
> The other is the back wall at Molokini. It's another deep water dive, but there's a good chance of seeing schools of Hammerheads. It's an advanced dive, however, because the seas tend to be very rough, which makes getting in the boat a challenge, and because the currents tend to be very fast.
> Other than those two, Hawaii is good, but not great.
> Above water, it's one of the most spectacular and amazing places in the world.


We have done a couple of Ray dives in Exuma. One of the things a person has to experience to appreciate. Fantastic variety of rays of various species and all sizes swam with us for a good bit both times. We have done several chum bucket shark dives. I believe hammers head shown each time but can't remember for sure. Beautiful animals. Way more standoffish vs. the nurse sharks and even the tiger sharks. I hoped to get a chance to dive anywhere while we were in San Antonio but did not. I am getting the fever pretty bad. 
**** I know you post is Hawaii centric but diving caught my attention.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> there's no safe limit for alcohol, every mouthful does you harm, if it's very low doses it can take many years before the issues become notable to you, but very low doses are not the societal norm. there no point doing it at all unless you get at least mildy intoxicantated .its a mood enhancer after all, if the dose you take doesn't enhance your mood you may as well drink water, if it does it has caused you irreparable harm.



So if it is a horrible poison as you say why do people in Europe who drink more then we do in the United States live longer?  Better diet probably part of it but then that means I can simply cancel out any negative effects with a good diet


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2019)

there a lot more things that can kill you than alcohol.
but, Moldova, drinks far more than the USA and has a far lower life expectancy, the czech republic drinks slightly more than the USA and has a slightly lower life expectancy,  so clearly you don't mean Europe rather a few counties in Europe, the difference is more likely caused by the provision of mostly free health and social care in most European countries people just don't die ofbeing to poor pay medical care bills i most of europe

the issue of course isn't just life expectancy its quality of life during that expectancy, very few heavy drinker can be considered healthy, only really the younger end where it hasn't taken effect yet,


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> So if it is a horrible poison as you say why do people in Europe who drink more then we do in the United States live longer?  Better diet probably part of it but then that means I can simply cancel out any negative effects with a good diet


Thats horrible logic. First, just because a country does one thing more than another doesn't mean that is the cause of their life expectancy. That would be like saying the reason for the difference is the popuparity of ketchup.

For fun, i decided to compare drinking per capita and life expectancy. Life expectancy =LE, drinks per capita =DC

#1 for Le was Japan, they're #71 on DC

#2 for LE was Switzerland, they're #34 DC

#3 for LE was Singapore, they're #152 DC

#1 for DC was Belarus, they're #98 LE

#2 for DC was Moldova, they're #99 LE

#3 for DC was lithuania, they're #103 LE.

Not really seeing the relationship there.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> there a lot more things that can kill you than alcohol.
> but, Moldova, drinks far more than the USA and has a far lower life expectancy, the czech republic drinks slightly more than the USA and has a slightly lower life expectancy,  so clearly you don't mean Europe rather a few counties in Europe, the difference is more likely caused by the provision of mostly free health and social care in most European countries people just don't die ofbeing to poor pay medical care bills i most of europe
> 
> the issue of course isn't just life expectancy its quality of life during that expectancy, very few heavy drinker can be considered healthy, only really the younger end where it hasn't taken effect yet,



I didn't mean all of Europe as a whole.  I wasant thinking of Russia where the men chug Vodka all day.  I was thinking more of Italy and France.  But I guess the higher life expectancy may come to the type of alcohol they drink as well.  More wine as opposed to other types of alcohol.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I didn't mean all of Europe as a whole.  I wasn't thinking of Russia where the men chug Vodka all day.  I was thinking more of Italy and France.  But I guess the higher life expectancy may come to the type of alcohol they drink as well.  More wine as opposed to other types of alcohol.


If you ignore the higher drinking countries to prove that more drinking=better life expectancy, that is horrible science. 

For what it's worth, while france is fairly high up there at # 18 for drinks per capita, italy is lower than the US (#48), at #87 in the rankings.


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I didn't mean all of Europe as a whole.  I wasant thinking of Russia where the men chug Vodka all day.  I was thinking more of Italy and France.  But I guess the higher life expectancy may come to the type of alcohol they drink as well.  More wine as opposed to other types of alcohol.


you letting your .American geography get in the way, Russia isn't in Europe, at least not very much of it, moldova and the czech re public both ar completely

 there only one type of alcohol that is drunk, just in different types of drink, there's a think that some of the other things in wines, particularly red wine have a health benifit, but it would be even healthier if they left the alcohol out or just eat the grapes


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> I didn't mean all of Europe as a whole.  I wasant thinking of Russia where the men chug Vodka all day.  I was thinking more of Italy and France.  But I guess the higher life expectancy may come to the type of alcohol they drink as well.  More wine as opposed to other types of alcohol.


edit


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## JR 137 (Jul 30, 2019)

Alcohol (ethanol that is in beverages) dissolves lipids, and also dissolves arterial plaque. Drinking alcohol in moderation can act as a cleanser for your circulatory system. That hasn’t been outright proven, but it’s pretty logical.

So alcohol is good for you. 

Binge drinking has the opposite effect - hardening and narrowing the arteries.

So alcohol is bad for you. 

This link provides information from a study of alcohol dosage in mice and it’s effect on the arteries. Interestingly, 2 drinks a day (14 per week) was good for them, but 7 dink’s a day for 2 days a week (14 drinks) was bad for them. Pace yourself 

Study Links Drinking Pattern to Alcohol’s Effect on Heart Health


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 30, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Alcohol (ethanol that is in beverages) dissolves lipids, and also dissolves arterial plaque. Drinking alcohol in moderation can act as a cleanser for your circulatory system. That hasn’t been outright proven, but it’s pretty logical.
> 
> So alcohol is good for you.
> 
> ...


There have been some recent studies (last 2 years-ish) that have been suggesting any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I haven't looked as much into it as I probably should, as IMO even if it is bad for you it's probably not killing you to have a few drinks a week. Also, my tendency with these sorts of issues where studies contradict each other with health, is that both studies were probably biased in some way, in their initial design, or random chance is more of a factor than the actual variable in question.

For your reading pleasure: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Alcohol (ethanol that is in beverages) dissolves lipids, and also dissolves arterial plaque. Drinking alcohol in moderation can act as a cleanser for your circulatory system. That hasn’t been outright proven, but it’s pretty logical.
> 
> So alcohol is good for you.
> 
> ...



well here an comprehensive study that says any amount of alcohol is ad for you, but more is worse
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext


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## jobo (Jul 30, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> There have been some recent studies (last 2 years-ish) that have been suggesting any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I haven't looked as much into it as I probably should, as IMO even if it is bad for you it's probably not killing you to have a few drinks a week. Also, my tendency with these sorts of issues where studies contradict each other with health, is that both studies were probably biased in some way, in their initial design, or random chance is more of a factor than the actual variable in question.
> 
> For your reading pleasure: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext


you beats me, one is indeed biased; towards mice and one biased towards humans, got a feeling we should ignore the mice one


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 30, 2019)

jobo said:


> you beats me, one is indeed biased; towards mice and one biased towards humans, got a feeling we should ignore the mice one


The mice study has a distinct advantage: it’s far more controlled and therefore less variation. They could all be fed the same diet, same amount of exercise, same age, etc. Hell, they could all be clones.

But it’s got a definite disadvantage: they’re mice, not humans.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2019)

..


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> There have been some recent studies (last 2 years-ish) that have been suggesting any amount of alcohol is bad for you. I haven't looked as much into it as I probably should, as IMO even if it is bad for you it's probably not killing you to have a few drinks a week. Also, my tendency with these sorts of issues where studies contradict each other with health, is that both studies were probably biased in some way, in their initial design, or random chance is more of a factor than the actual variable in question.
> 
> For your reading pleasure: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31310-2/fulltext


As with many things, it seems to depend what you look at in the study. It appears almost any amount of alcohol increases cancer risk marginally. But there are beneficial effects found in other studies. I'm hoping soon someone will do a meta-study, to pull all this data together.


----------



## jobo (Jul 31, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> As with many things, it seems to depend what you look at in the study. It appears almost any amount of alcohol increases cancer risk marginally. But there are beneficial effects found in other studies. I'm hoping soon someone will do a meta-study, to pull all this data together.


that's what he and I have posted above , a 592 studies meta data study,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2019)

jobo said:


> that's what he and I have posted above , a 592 studies meta data study,


That study doesn't actually restrict to the direct effect of alcohol, though. The top 3 attributed causes are self-harm, tuberculosis, and vehicle injury. Of those, the tuberculosis is the only one we could reasonably attribute to a poisonous effect (direct effect on the body over time), rather than on cognitive and emotional impairment. I'd have to dig deeper into the text to see if they had enough information to suss out the direct bodily effect on LE.


----------



## jobo (Jul 31, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That study doesn't actually restrict to the direct effect of alcohol, though. The top 3 attributed causes are self-harm, tuberculosis, and vehicle injury. Of those, the tuberculosis is the only one we could reasonably attribute to a poisonous effect (direct effect on the body over time), rather than on cognitive and emotional impairment. I'd have to dig deeper into the text to see if they had enough information to suss out the direct bodily effect on LE.


well drinking is self harm  and the effects of it on the nervous system and cognitive functions are very much part of the effects of being poisoned, similarly the emotional effects are a result of the cognitive effects and the dependanctpy it creates,


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2019)

jobo said:


> well drinking is self harm  and the effects of it on the nervous system and cognitive functions are very much part of the effects of being poisoned, similarly the emotional effects are a result of the cognitive effects and the dependanctpy it creates,


Yes, but the running into the tree isn't a direct effect of the alcohol. It's attributable to the effects.

Probably just splitting hairs on that, though.


----------



## jobo (Jul 31, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, but the running into the tree isn't a direct effect of the alcohol. It's attributable to the effects.
> 
> Probably just splitting hairs on that, though.


if you take LSD and think you can fly out of a 4 th floor  window, is it the height or the lsd that killed you ?


----------



## granfire (Jul 31, 2019)

jobo said:


> if you take LSD and think you can fly out of a 4 th floor  window, is it the height or the lsd that killed you ?


neither.
the impact.


----------



## jobo (Jul 31, 2019)

granfire said:


> neither.
> the impact.


no , if your going to be silly, it's deceleration that does for you, which is prortional to velocity, which is, whixmch is proportional to potential energy, which is proportional to height, which is one of the options I gave,


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2019)

jobo said:


> if you take LSD and think you can fly out of a 4 th floor  window, is it the height or the lsd that killed you ?


The ground.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 31, 2019)

granfire said:


> neither.
> the impact.


I didn’t know if I should’ve chosen funny, like or agree here.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 31, 2019)

Suss. I learned a new word.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 31, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Suss. I learned a new word.


It's one of my favorites, though not nearly as much fun as "defenestration".


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 31, 2019)

Haha! That one I knew.


----------



## Chrisinmd (Jul 31, 2019)

jobo said:


> well drinking is self harm  and the effects of it on the nervous system and cognitive functions are very much part of the effects of being poisoned, similarly the emotional effects are a result of the cognitive effects and the dependanctpy it creates,



Alcohol may have adverse health outcomes even at low levels of consumption, but so do other items. I'll just mention one: soft drinks. It wasn't hard to find relevant studies. The effects look comparable, perhaps even greater.

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutriti...s/soft-drinks-...

"People who consume sugary drinks regularly— 1 to 2 cans a day or more —have a 26% greater risk of developing type 2 diabetes than people who rarely have such drinks."

"A study that followed 40,000 men for two decades found that those who averaged one can of a sugary beverage per day had a 20% higher risk of having a heart attack or dying from a heart attack than men who rarely consumed sugary drinks. ... A related study in women found a similar sugary beverage–heart disease link."

So should I drink a Coke or a Coors Light?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> So should I drink a Coke or a Coors Light?


Assuming your goal is to be healthy...why would you be drinking either? Neither is good if you're focused on avoiding unhealthy stuff, especially on a daily basis. Stick with water, maybe tea if waters too boring for you.

That aside, if you're okay being slightly unhealthy (probably not gonna kill you to cheat a bit), drink either one. Having a drink every once in a while isn't that bad, of either, it's when it's daily or almost daily that it's an issue.

As a side note, is people drinking soda every day a common thing? I used to do that in college, because it was free, but not before or after. I wouldn't consider daily soda drinking to be a low level of consumption-to me that's a huge level of consumption.


----------



## Chrisinmd (Jul 31, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Assuming your goal is to be healthy...why would you be drinking either? Neither is good if you're focused on avoiding unhealthy stuff, especially on a daily basis. Stick with water, maybe tea if waters too boring for you.
> 
> That aside, if you're okay being slightly unhealthy (probably not gonna kill you to cheat a bit), drink either one. Having a drink every once in a while isn't that bad, of either, it's when it's daily or almost daily that it's an issue.
> 
> As a side note, is people drinking soda every day a common thing? I used to do that in college, because it was free, but not before or after. I wouldn't consider daily soda drinking to be a low level of consumption-to me that's a huge level of consumption.



Agree water or tea would be the best choice if your trying to be healthy.

I don't drink soda myself so not sure how common it is to drink soda daily.  But I see a few people I work with drink multiple soda's per day.  Or those fancy Starbucks drinks that are probably not to much better then soda.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 31, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Agree water or tea would be the best choice if your trying to be healthy.
> 
> I don't drink soda myself so not sure how common it is to drink soda daily.  But I see a few people I work with drink multiple soda's per day.  Or those fancy Starbucks drinks that are probably not to much better then soda.


Nah, no way those are better. Either way general advice is not to drink any of that daily. No reason to figure out the least of the evils.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Assuming your goal is to be healthy...why would you be drinking either? Neither is good if you're focused on avoiding unhealthy stuff, especially on a daily basis. Stick with water, maybe tea if waters too boring for you.
> 
> That aside, if you're okay being slightly unhealthy (probably not gonna kill you to cheat a bit), drink either one. Having a drink every once in a while isn't that bad, of either, it's when it's daily or almost daily that it's an issue.
> 
> As a side note, is people drinking soda every day a common thing? I used to do that in college, because it was free, but not before or after. I wouldn't consider daily soda drinking to be a low level of consumption-to me that's a huge level of consumption.


I know folks who drink a soda every morning (instead of coffee). And that's just their starting point.


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## jobo (Aug 1, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Alcohol may have adverse health outcomes even at low levels of consumption, but so do other items. I'll just mention one: soft drinks. It wasn't hard to find relevant studies. The effects look comparable, perhaps even greater.
> 
> https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutriti...s/soft-drinks-...
> 
> ...


I'm not telling you you shoudon't drink, your an adult, I'm telling you it's poisoning you.  I was ,alcohol dependentl most of my adult life, not a great deal at once, except fridays but a modest amount nearly every day.

I gave up as I had been made redundant and couldnt afford it, when I got back on my feet, I tried to start drinking again and couldnt,  I didn't like the taist and my tolerance to alcohol was very low and I didn't like the effect it had on me. it was hard to believe I used to go out of my way to fell like that.

 during this break I notice that my health and sence of well being had increased greatly,  I've also learnt to relax and enjoy myself in company who drink, with out drinking myself, which is possibly the hardest thing, and adicts try and get you to have a drink or two, as it makes them feel less bad about themserlves

but I have an Irish coffee on chrismass day and thats, because it's chrismass and you have to let your hair downdown it's.

finding things that you could do instead that are less healthy is just a mental trick you do to justify something, drink water with a piece of lemon in, that what I do and it's generally free,


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## Chrisinmd (Aug 2, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Thats horrible logic. First, just because a country does one thing more than another doesn't mean that is the cause of their life expectancy. That would be like saying the reason for the difference is the popuparity of ketchup.
> 
> For fun, i decided to compare drinking per capita and life expectancy. Life expectancy =LE, drinks per capita =DC
> 
> ...



Thanks for the data you looked up.  What website are these numbers from?  Like to take a look myself.

One thing occurred to me was you have to take the quality of the health care system in the particular nation into account with these numbers.  If you have a high drinks per capita nation with a low life expectancy is that do to the drinking or simply a crappy health care system as a whole.    Not sure the quality of health care in Belarus or Moldova but im sure its not up to par with the USA


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## Chrisinmd (Aug 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> I'm not telling you you shoudon't drink, your an adult, I'm telling you it's poisoning you.  I was ,alcohol dependentl most of my adult life, not a great deal at once, except fridays but a modest amount nearly every day.
> 
> I gave up as I had been made redundant and couldnt afford it, when I got back on my feet, I tried to start drinking again and couldnt,  I didn't like the taist and my tolerance to alcohol was very low and I didn't like the effect it had on me. it was hard to believe I used to go out of my way to fell like that.
> 
> ...



When all's said and done, alcohol affects your chance of dying by precisely 0%.
Postponing death is a good idea, but don't forget to live while you're doing it.


----------



## jobo (Aug 2, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Thanks for the data you looked up.  What website are these numbers from?  Like to take a look myself.
> 
> One thing occurred to me was you have to take the quality of the health care system in the particular nation into account with these numbers.  If you have a high drinks per capita nation with a low life expectancy is that do to the drinking or simply a crappy health care system as a whole.    Not sure the quality of health care in Belarus or Moldova but im sure its not up to par with the USA


your rather missing the point, alcohol kills you very slowly, its effects are cumulative and to the most part irreversible,  average life expectancy in a country of say 80  includes all the none drinkers who lived to 90 and all the heavy drinkers who died at 50, you can't take just basic figures and come to the conclusion it has no effect on life expectancyc in any individual case and it has quality of life issues, not just fatality issues. it's not fun if you have alcohol induced brain damage and can't remember your grand kids .

if you need to drink to have fun, then there's is something fundamentally wrong with your life


Chrisinmd said:


> When all's said and done, alcohol affects your chance of dying by precisely 0%.
> Postponing death is a good idea, but don't forget to live while you're doing it.


----------



## Chrisinmd (Aug 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> As with many things, it seems to depend what you look at in the study. It appears almost any amount of alcohol increases cancer risk marginally. But there are beneficial effects found in other studies. I'm hoping soon someone will do a meta-study, to pull all this data together.



Potential problems with study

*The Journal and the Authors Hyped this Study*

The study's findings were not terribly remarkable. In fact, there is reason to be skeptical of them.

*Problem #1.* The study did not properly adjust for all confounders. A confounder is any factor that is associated with both the exposure (in this case, alcohol) and the outcome (in this case, various types of cardiovascular disease and death). One of the most famous examples of confounding occurred when a study concluded that coffee caused pancreatic cancer. The authors did not adjust for smoking, which was associated with both drinking coffee and pancreatic cancer. As it turned out, coffee drinkers were also likelier to smoke, and it was the smoking that killed people, not the coffee.

In this alcohol study, the authors adjusted for age, sex, smoking, and diabetes. That's good, but it's not sufficient. There are other confounding factors that are associated with drinking and cardiovascular disease or death, such as profession, socioeconomic status, race/ethnicity, diet, and exercise frequency. It is entirely plausible that people who drink every day also have other lifestyle factors that are associated with cardiovascular disease, such as a poor diet or lack of exercise. Maybe heavy drinkers have stressful jobs.

The point is that the alcohol may not be to blame. *However, we can't determine this from the study because the authors didn't even bother to collect data on it.*

*Problem #2. *People who drank 100 grams of alcohol per week had a* lower risk of all cardiovascular diseases. *It's only when cardiovascular disease (CVD) is broken down into various subtypes that the data show higher risk for one type of CVD and lower risk for another type of CVD. For example, the risk of stroke increases, but the risk of myocardial infarction (heart attack) decreases.* Overall, people who drank 100 grams of alcohol per week did not have a higher risk of death. *It's not until a person consumes two drinks per day (~200 grams per week) that the data suggest an impact on mortality. (See figure.)

*




*

That means that the authors purposefully highlighted the scary data (i.e., each additional 100 grams of alcohol increases some types of CVD) and downplayed the bigger picture -- namely, that 100 grams of alcohol isn't dangerous. Why? The authors have a specific mission in mind, and they admit it in their paper: "These data support limits for alcohol consumption that are lower than those recommended in most current guidelines."

*Problem #3.* Scientific studies need to make sense within the context of what else is known about the topic. Europeans drink more alcohol than Americans, yet they (Western Europeans, anyway) have longer life expectancies. How do the authors explain that?

*Problem #4.* Because the authors didn't find any damning data for people who consume 100 grams of alcohol per week (again, that is roughly one drink per day), they shifted their focus to people who drank more than that. They concluded that people who drank 200 grams per week (about two drinks per day) had a shorter life expectancy of six months. Not only is this finding subject to the same confounding problems mentioned earlier, it's not a clinically meaningful result. If a person expects to live to be 85 and instead dies at age 84.5, who cares?

The only clinically meaningful data was for people who had roughly 2 to 3.5 drinks per day or roughly 3.5+ drinks per day. Those groups had shorter life expectancies by 1-2 years and 4-5 years, respectively. Of course, that's not a surprise. These people are alcoholics.

*Problem #5.* _The Guardian_'s coverage was particularly atrocious. They quoted one professor (not associated with the study) who said, "This study makes clear that on balance there are no health benefits from drinking alcohol." That's not at all what the study showed. In fact, it showed the opposite: 100 grams of alcohol per week was linked to less overall cardiovascular disease.

*Problem #6.* I e-mailed the lead author, asking about many of the problems I cited above. She did not respond. I will be charitable and assume it's because she was too busy to respond, but she wasn't too busy to respond to either the BBC or _The Guardian_, both of which sensationalized the study. That makes me think that this media frenzy was precisely what the authors wanted.

*Problem #7.* _The Lancet_ also ran an editorial that said, "The drinking levels recommended in this study will no doubt be described as implausible and impracticable by the alcohol industry." The implication is clear: Anyone who disagrees with the paper is a paid shill for Big Alcohol. That's not science; that's propaganda.


----------



## jobo (Aug 2, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Potential problems with study
> 
> *The Journal and the Authors Hyped this Study*
> 
> ...


you've clearly copied and pasted that 

but yes, there are other life style factors, but poor life style choices is an effect of regular drinking, you just don't meet many fit slim healthy 50 year old who drink to any level, so is it the same lack of respect for their body that means that also have a poor diet and don't exercise sufficiently o,  is it cumlative effects of alcohol th  has affected their self respect and cognitive function, they clearly can't address weight and health issues until they have adrrsed their adiction, as their adiction is adding to them day after day


----------



## Chrisinmd (Aug 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> you've clearly copied and pasted that
> 
> but yes, there are other life style factors, but poor life style choices is an effect of regular drinking, you just don't meet many fit slim healthy 50 year old who drink to any level, so is it the same lack of respect for their body that means that also have a poor diet and don't exercise sufficiently o,  is it cumlative effects of alcohol th  has affected their self respect and cognitive function, they clearly can't address weight and health issues until they have adrrsed their adiction, as their adiction is adding to them day after day



Yes I copied and pasted the review of the study.  Told the potential issues with the study mentioned so take it for what its worth.


----------



## jobo (Aug 2, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Yes I copied and pasted the review of the study.  Told the potential issues with the study mentioned so take it for what its worth.


you seem to have leapt on the issues that support your world view, rather than doing a careful weighing up of the issues, no where in that rebultsle does it say achol isn't bad for you, it just seems to be arguing that it won't kill you before the heart attack you get from "over eating" and lack of exercise does, ignoring the obvious issue that over eating and lethargy are a byproduct of alcohol consumption


----------



## Chrisinmd (Aug 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> your rather missing the point, alcohol kills you very slowly, its effects are cumulative and to the most part irreversible,  average life expectancy in a country of say 80  includes all the none drinkers who lived to 90 and all the heavy drinkers who died at 50, you can't take just basic figures and come to the conclusion it has no effect on life expectancyc in any individual case and it has quality of life issues, not just fatality issues. it's not fun if you have alcohol induced brain damage and can't remember your grand kids .
> 
> if you need to drink to have fun, then there's is something fundamentally wrong with your life



Yes I would totally agree with the quality of life issues is almost just as important as the life expectancy issues.  But how likely are you to experience those quality of life issues if you drink at a moderate or reasonable rate?  Sure if your a heavy daily drinker or frequent binge drinker yes.

And yes I have plenty of fun when im not drinking.  But it can be enjoyable on occasion


----------



## jobo (Aug 2, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Yes I would totally agree with the quality of life issues is almost just as important as the life expectancy issues.  But how likely are you to experience those quality of life issues if you drink at a moderate or reasonable rate?  Sure if your a heavy daily drinker or frequent binge drinker yes.
> 
> And yes I have plenty of fun when im not drinking.  But it can be enjoyable on occasion


what argument are you putting forward  and what is moderate and reasonable, ,

if your saying that having one class of wine on a Sunday dinner time will not adversely affect you, I'm in agreement that it will take several life times to see the health effects. the more you increase that the more damage you do, the more likely the effects will manifest with in your life time, and the more severe the effects will be.

it's a poison  its always bad for you, if you take it in faster than your body can remove it, you get intoxicated and the level of damage increases.

you may not be an at risk person as your consumption is so low, but that not the case yoiuve been putting forward, which is that it's not detrimental to health and well being and life expectancy at any " reasonable" does.
reasonable doses are not the societal norms, as people do it with the intent of becoming intoxicated, so by definition that's not " a reasonable dose" and is harmful

if a loved one was sniffing glue and using the same logic as you, would you say, yea fine, as long as its only three sniffs three times a week, that ok

nb, 30 years ago, I got through the day at a very dull and unpleasant job , by sniffing typex thinner, before they made it water based, it was in retrospect a very stupid thing to do and I should have sort my career options out


----------



## granfire (Aug 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> what argument are you putting forward  and what is moderate and reasonable, ,
> 
> if your saying that having one class of wine on a Sunday dinner time will not adversely affect you, I'm in agreement that it will take several life times to see the health effects. the more you increase that the more damage you do, the more likely the effects will manifest with in your life time, and the more severe the effects will be.
> 
> ...


well, you are already starting off with bias.

We do agree Chlorine is a poison? It should always be bad for you!
Natrium is an alkali metal, bursts into flame when it comes int contact with air. 
Really bad for you, right!


----------



## Buka (Aug 2, 2019)

Stupidity is a poison too. But we seem to have plenty of it here in the States. And the fkrs seem to thrive.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Yes I copied and pasted the review of the study.  Told the potential issues with the study mentioned so take it for what its worth.


Just a note: per guidelines, you're expected to cite your source for that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> you seem to have leapt on the issues that support your world view, rather than doing a careful weighing up of the issues, no where in that rebultsle does it say achol isn't bad for you, it just seems to be arguing that it won't kill you before the heart attack you get from "over eating" and lack of exercise does, ignoring the obvious issue that over eating and lethargy are a byproduct of alcohol consumption


Actually, what the information she posted says is we can't tell if the alcohol is bad or not. At a low level, it appears to have some minor beneficial effects (reduced risk of myocardial infarction) and some minor risks (raised risk of stroke), but either of those - or both - may be confounded by other variables.

The comparison to the coffee study is a good point. More recent studies show longevity benefits for even heavy coffee drinkers, which is a direct contradiction to the conclusions drawn from the confounded studies. Of course, it could as easily have gone the other way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 2, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's a poison its always bad for you


The study data don't seem to support that statement. There may be data that support it, but I've never seen any.


----------



## granfire (Aug 2, 2019)

Some studies make me scratch my head, or rather the conclusions they come up with!
one time I saw a thing on cutting boards. They compared plastic to wood. 
They found - as expected - bacteria on the plastic cutting board. 
But none on the wooden ones! They assumed that the wood fiber killed the bacteria as it dried out. 

Ergo?
Use plastic cutting boards, because you can bleach them! 
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. 

a German study was following juvenile marijuana users into adult hood. A large number were diagnosed with mental issues as they become older 
The study was small and well, they concluded, or intimated that weed use in childhood makes you develop mental issues. 
As the study was small, and you can't really make people part take in illegal substances, and of course nobody considered that the individuals might have been self medicating for the early onset of what ever condition it was....

Somewhere studies like this are junk.

There is a really old joke: 
A professor has a demonstration in his lecture with a flea 
he has the bug sitting on his finger and commands 'jump' 
The flea jumps
Then he cuts the legs off the flea and puts it back on his finger 
"Jumps" - nothing happens

'You see, students: When you  cut the legs off a fleam, god strikes it with deafness!"


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The study data don't seem to support that statement. There may be data that support it, but I've never seen any.


eh
ethanol alcohol is a poison, that isn't ( I thought) up for debate if you want data, Google a chemical data sheet for ethanol

are are you ssuggesting poisons arnt bad for you ?


----------



## granfire (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> eh
> ethanol alcohol is a poison, that isn't ( I thought) up for debate if you want data, Google a chemical data sheet for ethanol
> 
> are are you ssuggesting poisons arnt bad for you ?


Chlorine is a poison, too, yet you ingest it every day.
As I said, you approach with bias. Ethanol is a solvent.


----------



## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

granfire said:


> Chlorine is a poison, too, yet you ingest it every day.
> As I said, you approach with bias. Ethanol is a solvent.


I don't ingest it every day
but you keep posting much the same thing with out explanation  are you saying that as you are exposed to toxic substances everyday, its a good idea to purposely expose your self to another one ?

if not what point are you making


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> I don't ingest it every day
> but you keep posting much the same thing with out explanation  are you saying that as you are exposed to toxic substances everyday, its a good idea to purposely expose your self to another one ?
> 
> if not what point are you making


yes, you do ingest it every single day
you can't avoid ingesting it, 
Because as half of the components of table salt you HAVE to. 
It is actually essential, particularly when you work out and sweat a lot. 

and of course the other half is essential in other parts of the body's functions
Na+/K+-ATPase - Wikipedia


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

granfire said:


> yes, you do ingest it every single day
> you can't avoid ingesting it,
> Because as half of the components of table salt you HAVE to.
> It is actually essential, particularly when you work out and sweat a lot.
> ...


no that's a silly arrgumet, salt doesn't contain chlorine, it contains chloride, which to save you googling has an additional electron and so is a different chemical, it's usually a clue, when it has a different name !

so no chlorine in salt, at all !


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> no that's a silly arrgumet, salt doesn't contain chlorine, it contains chloride, which to save you googling has an additional electron and so is a different chemical, it's usually a clue, when it has a different name !
> 
> so no chlorine in salt, at all !


This site suggests that pure salt has chloride, while table salt has chlorine. No idea how trustworthy, it was the first thing my google search found.

A brief history of salt – Real Salt


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> no that's a silly arrgumet, salt doesn't contain chlorine, it contains chloride, which to save you googling has an additional electron and so is a different chemical, it's usually a clue, when it has a different name !
> 
> so no chlorine in salt, at all !



Water treatment plants commonly use chlorine as part of the treatment process. So it's quite likely that you do ingest chlorine regularly.


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Water treatment plants commonly use chlorine as part of the treatment process. So it's quite likely that you do ingest chlorine regularly.


they use very low doses of choline in the uk water treatment and I own a water filter that removes that and the far more worrying aluminium, chlorine will boil off  aluminium wont


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> This site suggests that pure salt has chloride, while table salt has chlorine. No idea how trustworthy, it was the first thing my google search found.
> 
> A brief history of salt – Real Salt


it's the same element. Cl. 
the chemical bond makes the difference

@ DirtyDog Tap water is usually laced with Chlorine in the US but the constant presence makes us go 'noseblind' to it, and only when they had an 'incident' at the plant and had to increase the amounts can you really tell again. 

You notice it when you come back from a civilized country (like Europe) and then WHOA, that Chlorine smell is strong! 

Oh, and yeah, stuff is absorbed through the skin, like in showers.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> they use very low doses of choline in the uk water treatment and I own a water filter that removes that and the far more worrying aluminium, chlorine will boil off  aluminium wont



They use very low doses of chlorine everywhere. The point was that you DO consume it, and it doesn't matter. Because low dose. Sort of like anything else. What basically determines if pretty much any substance is toxic or benign is dose.


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> They use very low doses of chlorine everywhere. The point was that you DO consume it, and it doesn't matter. Because low dose. Sort of like anything else. What basically determines if pretty much any substance is toxic or benign is dose.


not to mention sodium chloride is in every food, even when one does not add to it


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> They use very low doses of chlorine everywhere. The point was that you DO consume it, and it doesn't matter. Because low dose. Sort of like anything else. What basically determines if pretty much any substance is toxic or benign is dose.


well I'm telling you I don't, I'm not sure how your certain I do, unless " you" is some generic term for most people. and isn't related directly to me at all


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

yrs sodium cvl


granfire said:


> not to mention sodium chloride is in every food, even when one does not add to it[/QUOTchloride is, but not " CHORINE
> 
> 
> granfire said:
> ...



yes sodium chloride occurs  naturally in food, but not chlorine, which was you cvlaim, before a quick swerve, chlorine hardly occurs naturally at all, which is why they have to manufacture it


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> yrs sodium cvl
> 
> 
> yes sodium chloride occurs  naturally in food, but not chlorine, which was you cvlaim, before a quick swerve, chlorine hardly occurs naturally at all, which is why they have to manufacture it


Did you check my other post, with the link that states table salt has chlorine?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> well I'm telling you I don't, I'm not sure how your certain I do, unless " you" is some generic term for most people. and isn't related directly to me at all



Really? Are you telling me that you personally drink nothing other than water you personally purify?  Or drink any commercial drink? Or eat any food that you personally raise and prepare?


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Really? Are you telling me that you personally drink nothing other than water you personally purify?  Or drink any commercial drink? Or eat any food that you personally raise and prepare?


that's a yes on the water, the only commercial drinks. have are coffee made with milk and there's no chlorine in uk food, they don wash out in clorinated water like they do in the states


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Did you check my other post, with the link that states table salt has chlorine?


I did and your not reading it properly, when its mixed with sodium it become sodium chloride so not chlorine,r chlorine doesn't occur natrally as it keeps bonding with things you could separate the chlorine from the sodium, but when you swallow salt there is no chrolene in it only chloride


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> I did and your not reading it properly, when its mixed with sodium it become sodium chloride so not chlorine,r chlorine doesn't occur natrally as it keeps bonding with things you could separate the chlorine from the sodium, but when you swallow salt there is no chrolene in it only chloride


I thought UK schools were better than this

It's the same element. Very much disproving that 'a poison is always a poison'

You know, like Mercury is always bad, or Aluminium when either element has been used in various compounds internally for ages. 
I am off tho, getting me some sodium chloride, filled with some cashews.


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

granfire said:


> I thought UK schools were better than this
> 
> It's the same element. Very much disproving that 'a poison is always a poison'
> 
> ...


really, ha ha, an element is a pure substance, ie chlorine,sodium chloride is a compound,it.can't be the same element because its no longer an element, that's why it's called chloride, gaining or losing electrons can make a substance more or less toxic or not toxic at all ,coz chemistry


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> that's a yes on the water, the only commercial drinks. have are coffee made with milk and there's no chlorine in uk food, they don wash out in clorinated water like they do in the states



According to THIS information, provided by the Government of the UK (you know, the people who run the water treatment plants), you're full of ****. And chlorine, too.


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## jobo (Aug 3, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> According to THIS information, provided by the Government of the UK (you know, the people who run the water treatment plants), you're full of ****. And chlorine, too.


?? I filter my water, how are you suggesting I ingest it ?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> ?? I filter my water, how are you suggesting I ingest it ?



Even things like reverse osmosis don't remove all the chlorine. Only about 98%.
But hey, there's no reason to let reality interfere with your life.


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## granfire (Aug 3, 2019)

jobo said:


> really, ha ha, an element is a pure substance, ie chlorine,sodium chloride is a compound,it.can't be the same element because its no longer an element, that's why it's called chloride, gaining or losing electrons can make a substance more or less toxic or not toxic at all ,coz chemistry


Coz Chemistry....an element is an element, and no chemical reaction changes the element. 
Fusion changes elements,
but you are doing a fantastic demonstration of the back peddle on the 'a poison is always a poison' doctrine of yours. Definitely a 9.5, possibly a 10


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## Buka (Aug 3, 2019)

All those years in most people’s misspent youth drinking, I wasn’t, I was training. Never even drank a beer.

I didn’t start drinking until my mid fifties, and, man am I having fun! And now I know why all you guys were laughing back then.

Am I poisoning myself? Like I give a rat’s ash.


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> All those years in most people’s misspent youth drinking, I wasn’t, I was training. Never even drank a beer.
> 
> I didn’t start drinking until my mid fifties, and, man am I having fun! And now I know why all you guys were laughing back then.
> 
> Am I poisoning myself? Like I give a rat’s ash.



I'm in much the same boat. I rarely had alcohol - maybe 1-2 drinks a year. Until after my second round of cancer treatment. Now, I'll have a drink 3-4 times a week. There's something about getting in the hottub that requires a glass of wine, you know.
At this point, I pretty much know what's going to kill me, and it won't be my drinking.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm in much the same boat. I rarely had alcohol - maybe 1-2 drinks a year. Until after my second round of cancer treatment. Now, I'll have a drink 3-4 times a week. There's something about getting in the hottub that requires a glass of wine, you know.
> At this point, I pretty much know what's going to kill me, and it won't be my drinking.


I think wine in a hot tub counts as low-level chemo. I'm certain I read that in a journal somewhere...the title escapes me.


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## jobo (Aug 4, 2019)

granfire said:


> Coz Chemistry....an element is an element, and no chemical reaction changes the element.
> Fusion changes elements,
> but you are doing a fantastic demonstration of the back peddle on the 'a poison is always a poison' doctrine of yours. Definitely a 9.5, possibly a 10


no, a element is by definition pure, if its not pure its not an element

and I haven't said a poison is always a poison, that clearly not so if you combine it with something that makes it inert, I said alcohol was always a poison, a fact you haven't actually tried to dispute, rather going off on a train that as you are exposed on a daily basis to toxins, it doesn't matter if you also poison yourself with alcohol, which is not a logical outcome


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## Buka (Aug 4, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm in much the same boat. I rarely had alcohol - maybe 1-2 drinks a year. Until after my second round of cancer treatment. Now, I'll have a drink 3-4 times a week. There's something about getting in the hottub that requires a glass of wine, you know.
> At this point, I pretty much know what's going to kill me, and it won't be my drinking.



Oh man, that glass of wine in a hot tub thing. I happened to do that the first year I started to imbibe. That did not go well. My wife had to half carry me back to the car (we were on the road, going cross country)
I was legless and dizzy. 

Lesson learned - maybe try to hold the glass in the other hand or something.


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## Chrisinmd (Aug 4, 2019)

Are you confusing different types of alcohol?  Obviously drinking rubbing alcohol or other alcohols that are not for drinking and used for industrial use would be a poison.

A basic axiom of pharmacology is simple. “The dosage makes the toxin.” 

When consumed in moderate amounts, ethanol is not a toxin. However, in large enough quantities it can cause alcohol poisoning. In such cases, the dosage makes alcohol a poison or toxin. Although rare, this is also true of water.

On the other hand, alcohol in moderation leads to better health and greater longevity. Either abstaining from alcohol or abusing it leads to poorer health and shorter life.

Alcohol a poison or toxin? The answer is important if you drink alcohol.


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## jobo (Aug 4, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Are you confusing different types of alcohol?  Obviously drinking rubbing alcohol or other alcohols that are not for drinking and used for industrial use would be a poison.
> 
> A basic axiom of pharmacology is simple. “The dosage makes the toxin.”
> 
> ...


no, I'm not, so what is the reasonable amount that doesn't cause you harm ?


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> Oh man, that glass of wine in a hot tub thing. I happened to do that the first year I started to imbibe. That did not go well. My wife had to half carry me back to the car (we were on the road, going cross country)
> I was legless and dizzy.
> 
> Lesson learned - maybe try to hold the glass in the other hand or something.



You have to remember that the vasodilatation from the hottub will make the effect of the alcohol much more pronounced.


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## granfire (Aug 7, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You have to remember that the vasodilatation from the hottub will make the effect of the alcohol much more pronounced.


good. you can get buzzed off Michelob Ultra then....


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## Dirty Dog (Aug 8, 2019)

granfire said:


> good. you can get buzzed off Michelob Ultra then....



Sue keeps our hot tub at 105F. After 30 minutes in there, you're a little dizzy even if you have zero alcohol.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 8, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sue keeps our hot tub at 105F. After 30 minutes in there, you're a little dizzy even if you have zero alcohol.



I believe that is referred to, medically, as stage 1 soup


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 5, 2019)

jobo said:


> alcohol is POison, I'm wondering how likely it is to be mixed with anything more harmful than what you've paid for ?



Update.
FBI just released the results of there investigation.  The tourist did not die from tainted alcohol.  It was natural causes.  So guess the story was overblown by the media.

FBI finds no link among tourist deaths in D.R.: Travel Weekly


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## jobo (Nov 5, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Update.
> FBI just released the results of there investigation.  The tourist did not die from tainted alcohol.  It was natural causes.  So guess the story was overblown by the media.
> 
> FBI finds no link among tourist deaths in D.R.: Travel Weekly


well i'm not surprised it turn out to be nonsense, how do you feel about your part in spreading unsubstantiated rumours in increasing the poverty in one of the poorest countries on earth  ?

as it is, that people would sooner cancel their cheap holiday  rather than do without alcohol for a week, shows the level of alcohol dependency in society


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 5, 2019)

jobo said:


> well i'm not surprised it turn out to be nonsense, how do you feel about your part in spreading unsubstantiated rumours in increasing the poverty in one of the poorest countries on earth  ?



I think I was doing the opposite of spreading unsubstantiated rumours.  My initial post was skeptical of the idea the alcohol was tainted and I thought the fear was overblown.  So if anything I was trying to correct the hysteria and rumors.


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## jobo (Nov 5, 2019)

this quote from your op seems not to support the quote above

''But I guess when your dealing with these impoverished nations I could see them possibly cutting corners on health and safety in alcohol production.''


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 5, 2019)

Your cherrypicking my initial post



Chrisinmd said:


> .  Although that hasn't been proven as of yet and they are still investigating from what I understand. So who knows what the deal is down in the Dominican Republic in reality.





Chrisinmd said:


> Although I have had many a drink in Mexico and Costa Rica and never had any issue myself.


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## jobo (Nov 5, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Your cherrypicking my initial post


i'm just quoting what you put,


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 5, 2019)

Chrisinmd said:


> Update.
> FBI just released the results of there investigation.  The tourist did not die from tainted alcohol.  It was natural causes.  So guess the story was overblown by the media.
> 
> FBI finds no link among tourist deaths in D.R.: Travel Weekly



To clarify; cause of death was determined by Dominican authorities to be from natural causes, not the FBI. The FBI determined there was no connection with the tourist deaths.
But fully agree that in this day and age of instant, un-vetted news, you need to look deeper into things before you run off spouting what could be unsubstantiated rumors in the place of facts


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 6, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> To clarify; cause of death was determined by Dominican authorities to be from natural causes, not the FBI. The FBI determined there was no connection with the tourist deaths.
> But fully agree that in this day and age of instant, un-vetted news, you need to look deeper into things before you run off spouting what could be unsubstantiated rumors in the place of facts



Yes you are correct.  It says no connection between deaths.  But it said Toxicology testing completed to date have been consistent with the findings of local authorities.  So I guess there is no evidence the Dominican authorities were incorrect that the deaths were from natural causes.

a State Department spokesperson said, “Toxicology testing completed to date have been consistent with the findings of local authorities. We have seen no increase over the past several years in the number of U.S. citizens who pass away while visiting or living in the Dominican Republic. Many of the U.S. citizen deaths reported in media were determined by Dominican authorities to be from natural causes.  We have no indication of any connection between these deaths.”


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