# What is the difference between Modern Arnis and Tapi Tapi?



## Carol (Dec 29, 2006)

I see these two terms together a lot, but I'm not quite sure what the differences in style and lineage are.  

Can anyone explain further?


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## Iron Leopard (Dec 29, 2006)

not to hijack your thread Carol but...what is the difference between arnis and kali? or is that Cali?


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## Carol (Dec 29, 2006)

Kali with a K 

They are very similar...the terms were borne from different regions of the Philippines.  Arnis is a term originating from the Northern Philippines, Kali is a term originating from the Southern Philippines.  

There isn't reallly any standardization of terms to the FMAs.  Some say that due to the cultural differences, Arnis developed with more of a focus on stick work while Kali developed more of a focus on blade work.  

Realistically, the focus on stick vs. blade vs. empty hand vs. grappling depends on the instructor and the instructor's lineage.  Most current Filipino styles reference more of a family lineage than a precise curriculum.

Does that help?


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## Iron Leopard (Dec 29, 2006)

yes it does thanks! How much stick training is involved? Is that one of your main focuses?


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## Carol (Dec 29, 2006)

Stick training is a main focus in the FMAs, indeed.   Arnis, Kali, Escrima traditionally all have a heavy amount of stickwork in them.  

There are a few purposes of stick training.  

A stick (or stick-like object, such as a club, bat tire iron...) is one of the easiest weapons to find/improvise.

Sticks/Clubs, guns, and knives are the three most common weapons found in violent crime (source:  FBI uniform crime report, 2003).  There is a practical value to learning out to defend oneself against a club attack.

Many lineages of the FMAs use stick training for stick fighting and defense techniques, they are also used to simulate blade training.  A stick is round, a blade is not.  This trains proper body mechanics without looking at the blade, and without the investment of training blades.  

Plus...its fun.


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## chris arena (Dec 29, 2006)

Modern Arnis is the name that Remy Presas chose to call his art. Tapi-Tapi is just one of the techniques (styles) within the art. No different than Sinwalli techniques and how they come together as a whole, or any other set of movements set to achieve its means. It is merely one part of the art.

As Balantwik is considered to be base art of Modern Arnis, Tapi-Tapi comes from balantwik (I believe, as Modern Arnis is concerned). However I believe that Remy took it a bit farther and his son he has worked hard over the years to continue developing it from what he learned from his father and the senior masters after his dad left the Phillipines. As Remy Sr. added akijitsu to the Balantwick Tapi-Tapi from what he learned over the years, his son, Dr Remy Presas has been hard at work adding Chi Na technique as well and is continuing to expand this segment of the art. 

Tapi-Tapi is an ever-changing counter to counter group of technique. Sorta like sticking your hand in the Monkey's cage. If you do, and the monkey grabs your hand, you will be in trouble!!

At the 2005 seminar, Tapi-Tapi was brought up by the (loved and greatly missed) Dr. Wilfredo Mathias, who stated that Tapi-Tapi is just one branch on the tree of Modern Arnis technique, nothing more and nothing less.

As far as Modern Arnis goes. I always like to think of it as the JKD of the Filipino arts. As I study an old old school style as well. Modern Arnis is more open, not as heavily weapon fighting biased as old school, but takes a more modern stance that the average person today will in all likelyhood be the victom of a weapon attack and have to deal with the attack unarmed, or at least be adept with an improvised enviromental weapon (umbrella, etc). In comparison, the old school will always use the weapon and hand to hand would be unthinkable and only a last resort. One-upsmanship is the name of the game and you don't bring a knife to a gun-fight is the rule! In other words, you will not get in a fist fight with these guys, they will use the blade or whatever they can get there hands on before messing around bare-handed. No chivalry here!

Anyway, thats my take on it!

Chris Arena
enthusiastic intermediate


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## Carol (Dec 30, 2006)

Awesome stuff Chris!!  Thank you so much!


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## Dieter (Dec 30, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> Kali with a K
> They are very similar...the terms were borne from different regions of the Philippines.  Arnis is a term originating from the Northern Philippines, Kali is a term originating from the Southern Philippines.



Hello Carol,

sorry but the above is wrong.
This is, how it was written in the Inosanto book "Filipino Martial Arts", still it is wrong.

In the Philippines, the terms Arnis and Escrima are widely used as umbrella terms, Kali is, especially in the south, originally unknown.
If you ask a normal person in the Philippines about Kali, they will not know what you are talking about. This is also true for the southern Philippines.

Only in the recent years it has been readopted in the Philippines, probably because the term us popular in the USA. (for example, before it was Pekiti Tirsia Arnis, now it is Pekiti Tirsia Kali).  This is not my opinion, but comes from the Philippines from people, who did research in this area.

Also, that Kali shall be the mother form of Arnis and Kali is not correct.
There is no mother form in the Filipino Martial Arts.
Sure, there are styles, that are more blade orientated and others, that are more stock orientated.

But you cannot tell this from the name.
Arnis, Eskrima and Kali are nowadays only terms, that are used to name Filipino Martial Arts. Umbrella terms. It is like you can say this is an "auto" and this is a "car". You mean the same thing: Something with 4 wheels, an engine, breaks, steering wheel and so on. Something, that every car has. If you want to go specific, you have to name the brand, the model and the kind of engine for example. Then you can compare this car with another car, when you have the same detailed information about the brand, the model, the type of engine, etc.
Like a VW beetle and a Ferrari F40 are both cars. And both autos. Still they are VERY different
Also if you say my car is better than your auto, this is nonsense.

This is the same as if one says Eskrima is this and Arnis is that and Kali is that. 
Go into the style. Say: my Modern Arnis, that I have learned from Tim Hartman, who has learned it from GM Remy Presas is....  compared to the Inayan Eskrima, from Emanuel Hart, who has learned it from Mike Inay and to the Pekiti Tirsia Kali from Bill McGrath, who has learned it from Leo Gaje.

Then you can compare styles and systems, because you are not talking in umbrella terms.


I hope this helps. 

Regards and happy new year


Dieter Knüttel


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## Carol (Dec 30, 2006)

Hi Datu Dieter,

You are awesome!

Pleasure to make your acquaintance, and to get your input. That is one of the most comprehensive explanations I've heard of the way the terms are used. 

In my own class, my instructor got in to how Arnis, Kali, and Escrima can all mean the same thing. But....ts funny how information like that can fade after a morning of getting your butt kicked  I really appreciate the input and the extra detail. Now I have a lot better understanding of what they were trying to say. 

Happy New Year to you too!

Cheers,

Carol


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## Dieter (Dec 30, 2006)

Hello Carol,

I am glad it I could help to make this point clear.
there is always a lot of confusion around these terms, and when in one of the best books about FMA, from Dan Insoanto, some information is wrong, it does not help to make the matter clearer. 

Anyway, one more thing about the Tapi-Tapi.

We use Tapi-Tapi a an exercise and drill within the Modern Arnis.
You can practice Modern Anris without Tapi-Tapi, but you cannot practice the Presas Tapi-Tapi without Modern Arnis.
(Perhaps similar to the hubud lubud, that you can practice and train techiques from your kali in this drill).

I am writing Presas Tapi-Tapi, because many other styles have a Tapi-Tapi, but it can be a totally different drill, that has nothing to do the the Tapi-Tapi of Modern Arnis.

Professor Presas only pushed the Tapi-Tapi in the last 5 years of his teaching, or at least only then he started to call it this way. Before there were drills, that are now part of Tapi-Tapi, but perhaps called single stick sparring or something like that.
Chris was right, that the fundamental idea of the Tapi-Tapi sure comes from he Balintawak, that GM Presas had learned, before he founded Modern Arnis in 1957.
Still he changed and added things, so that the Tapi-Tapi is now different to the Balintawak sparring. This does not mean, that one is better than the other. Just differnet. 
But regarding the development of the Tapi-Tapi, Remy Jr. cannot be mentioned on the same level as his father. Sure he, like others, follow GM Presas's wish to continue the speading of Modern Arnis. But he did not develop the Tapi-Tapi.
Many groups work hard out there to spread Modern Arnis, like the IMAFP, the IMAF inc's, the WMAA, the WMAC, the DAV, as well as MARPPIO of the Presas kids and other groups, I may have forgotten to mention here (no intent).

I hope this helps too.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel


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## Carol (Dec 30, 2006)

Hi Dieter,

Unfortunately I missed a Tapi-Tapi seminar at Guro Brett's school in Connecticut and haven't experienced Tapi-Tapi for myself (yet)

So, using Chris Arena's description:



> Tapi-Tapi is an ever-changing counter to counter group of techniques


 
Is it safe to say that...Tapi-Tapi is a real-time stickfighting drill that helps train a stickfighter to fight other stick fighters?  

That sounds rather...intense 

Thanks,

Carol


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## Dieter (Dec 30, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> Hi Dieter,
> 
> Is it safe to say that...Tapi-Tapi is a real-time stickfighting drill that helps train a stickfighter to fight other stick fighters?
> 
> ...




Well, I would not say so. Alt least as we train it, it is a way how to dominate the opponent to control him.

If you go here:

http://www.abanico.de/html_d/modern_arnis.html

ans scroll down a little bit, you find 2 short sequences, where I do Tapi-Tapi with a partner.
The second also adds some empty hands and a lockflow after the Tapi-Tapi.

If you are more interested in Tapi-Tapi, I have issued a 95 minute DVD with only Tapi-Tapi on it.
You find it here

http://www.abanico.de/html_e/index_e.html

and then klick on the Modern Arnis button on the left side.

Regards


Dieter


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## Carol (Dec 30, 2006)

Dieter said:


> If you are more interested in Tapi-Tapi, I have issued a 95 minute DVD with only Tapi-Tapi on it.
> You find it here
> 
> http://www.abanico.de/html_e/index_e.html
> ...


 
Ahhhh....I had to click on the Silat DVD first.   Temptation has set in 

The clips helped make a lot of sense.  What language is spoken on your DVD?  I saw the page was in German, not sure if the DVD was as well.


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## Dieter (Dec 30, 2006)

Hi Carol,

I have the Silat only as VHS, not as DVD. The language can either be 
german or english.

The Tapi DVD is also either german or if preferred,  english.

Regards

Dieter


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## Carol (Dec 30, 2006)

Lucky for me you have your own production house sir   

I'll PM you in the not-too-distant future about one...or the other...or both...


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## Dieter (Dec 30, 2006)

Hello Carol,

OK, I will be looking forward for it.

Regards

Dieter Knüttel


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2006)

chris arena said:


> . . .
> As Balantwik is considered to be base art of Modern Arnis, Tapi-Tapi comes from balantwik (I believe, as Modern Arnis is concerned). However I believe that Remy took it a bit farther and his son he has worked hard over the years to continue developing it from what he learned from his father and the senior masters after his dad left the Phillipines. As Remy Sr. added akijitsu to the Balantwick Tapi-Tapi from what he learned over the years, his son, Dr Remy Presas has been hard at work adding Chi Na technique as well and is continuing to expand this segment of the art.
> 
> Tapi-Tapi is an ever-changing counter to counter group of technique. Sorta like sticking your hand in the Monkey's cage. If you do, and the monkey grabs your hand, you will be in trouble!!
> ...



Chris,

Some changes or corrections if I may. 

The name of the art you are trying to reference here is Balintawak. With in Balintawak there are some differences in the family branches. Some referred to the teaching methods as Grouped, Un-Grouped, or Modified. Of the three names I like the first and last the best as they describe what happened.

i.e. the Grouping method, uses a series of techniques to teach. After the series are learned then the conenction between the groups are taught and then from there it turns into more random instruction and practice. The modified refers to the modified technqiues or additions to the system. The Un-Grouped refers to the random teachings after one learns Abecedario, Seguidas, and then moves into Corraidas, which is where the Grouping or Modified techniques are taught as well. (* From my understanding. *)


As to taking it further or better, it still a path to trying to improve oneself in the FMA's, and in the end it is not the instructor or the system, but what the students does with what they learn, that matters.


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## Dan Anderson (Jan 1, 2007)

Hi Carol,

Here's a direct quote from a tape Prof. Presas made, _Modern Arnis - Filipino Martial Art - Mano de Tranka - Introduction To Tapi-Tapi _

_"Ladies and gentlemen, I will present to you the Filipino Martial Art; we call it Modern Arnis and I will present to all of you the art of Tapi-Tapi, how to loock and control your opponent with the cane and without the cane."_

In my school of Modern Arnis, MA-80, I distinguish between counter-the-counter and tapi-tapi.  As you can tell, there are different viewpoints to tapi-tapi, depending upon the practitioner.  They are all valid.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## modarnis (Jan 2, 2007)

Dan Anderson said:


> As you can tell, there are different viewpoints to tapi-tapi, depending upon the practitioner. They are all valid.


 

This has been discussed here before years ago.  Dan and Deiter sum it up pretty well.  I personally view it more like Dieter, a series of drills that were individually called something else many years ago when I first saw them.  Put together into the Modern "Tapi-Tapi", they serve as a learning platform to develop particular attributes necessary for stick fighting or self defense.  While there is some room for give and take at higher levels, it is decidedly one-sided, that is to say there is usually a driver and a passenger, each able to work on particular skills.


I will preface this remark with a big  IN MY OPINION    so nobody gets their shorts in a knot:

Professor was genius at distilling difficult concepts into an easy to teach format that travelled well on the seminar circuit.  Different people gleaned different degrees of emphasis on his verbiage.  Hew would often refer to the same thing differently at different times.  Some of this was his language shortcomings (while he spoke many with a high degree of fluency, in english there are subtleties often lost on non native speakers[topic for another discussion])  

He would sometimes use a Cebuano term or an Illongo term if English did not come to him in the heat of the moment.  People would often hear something called one thing in Chicago and something else in Mass.  

In my own limited study of the art, everything interconnects in a meaningful way, so it call all be tapi tapi if that's what you want to call it.  The more important thing is taking skill sets, developing attributes, and making some practical use of them for "your art" and your purposes.  While this message was lost on a great many, Professor encouraged people to make his art their own.  Again, my interpretation, Professor wanted people to practice, refine and build on the concepts themselves which is the highest evolution of the art, whatever label you put on it


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## chris arena (Jan 2, 2007)

I could go along with that! Leaders of the Modern Arnis Groups who are still taking the time to expand and grow Modern Arnis will continually press the envelope. Time will tell where it goes.

Chris Arena


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 3, 2007)

modarnis said:


> This has been discussed here before years ago. Dan and Deiter sum it up pretty well. I personally view it more like Dieter, a series of drills that were individually called something else many years ago when I first saw them. Put together into the Modern "Tapi-Tapi", they serve as a learning platform to develop particular attributes necessary for stick fighting or self defense. While there is some room for give and take at higher levels, it is decidedly one-sided, that is to say there is usually a driver and a passenger, each able to work on particular skills.
> 
> 
> I will preface this remark with a big  IN MY OPINION    so nobody gets their shorts in a knot:
> ...



Nice post


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## Guro Harold (Jan 6, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Nice post


Indeed!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 6, 2007)

modarnis said:


> This has been discussed here before years ago. Dan and Deiter sum it up pretty well. I personally view it more like Dieter, a series of drills that were individually called something else many years ago when I first saw them. Put together into the Modern "Tapi-Tapi", they serve as a learning platform to develop particular attributes necessary for stick fighting or self defense. While there is some room for give and take at higher levels, it is decidedly one-sided, that is to say there is usually a driver and a passenger, each able to work on particular skills.
> 
> 
> I will preface this remark with a big IN MY OPINION so nobody gets their shorts in a knot:
> ...


 
I have to agree that this was a very good post!


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