# holding the sticks



## CiNcO dOsE

hello everyone, this is my first post here and im hoping itll get pretty informative.

i need help/advice on holding escrima sticks.  how do you properly hold the sticks and do a  stirke?!  (lets say a strike to the left temple of the opponent).

i havent had any proper instructions.   there arent very many dojo in my place which offers arnis/kali/escrima.  some do for very pricy private lessons.   any advice/help would be great to start me off.

thanks people.


 DDV


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by d. dela vega _
> *hello everyone, this is my first post here and im hoping itll get pretty informative.
> 
> i need help/advice on holding escrima sticks.  how do you properly hold the sticks and do a  stirke?!  (lets say a strike to the left temple of the opponent).
> 
> i havent had any proper instructions.   there arent very many dojo in my place which offers arnis/kali/escrima.  some do for very pricy private lessons.   any advice/help would be great to start me off.
> 
> thanks people.
> 
> 
> DDV *



Hi vega...welcome aboard.

1st off, you need good instruction. The amount you can learn w/o one is not very much. Try to find a good one in your area, within your budget. You don't need to get sucked into very pricy private lessons, though; there are only a select few people who have the skill to charge for really pricy private's, so chances are these instructors aren't it.

So...find a good instructor. Best case, a quality school or instructor nearby who you can train with a few times a week. Worse case; start touring seminars w the same art, and get a group of friends (even if it is only one or two) to go with. Then you guys train what you learned for a month or so until you can make it to the next one. This way is really shakey, though, but it can be done. 

So, that's my 1st suggestion. Let us all know what City/State your in, and perhaps we can help you find someone.

*Now...for proper striking:* A lot of what is "proper" will very in detail from system to system. The varients depend on the strategies of that style when they deploy a strike. Here are some stylistic examples of what I mean:

Balintawak: Tend to use heavier sticks (no "baby sticks" as my instructor says), but not too heavy, and the focus is on making every shot count. Almost every shot is a power shot, so there is almost virtually no abanicko's or wittics' (fanning strikes or "whip-like" strikes).

Pekiti Tersia: From what I've seen, they tend to Use slightly longer sticks, but not exactly heavier. They use more Puno (they leave a longer "butt-end" of the stick) then most because they have in close techniques where they use this tool; but much of what I have seen as a strength to their stick-play is their largo mano ("long range") techniques, repetitive striking patterns, and "follow-through" striking. They seem to want to barrage their opponent with their largo striking patterns until they fall.

Serrada-Eskrima: This is a more in close style, and they tend to use a lot of abinicko's (fanning strikes). They generally use a shorter stick, and speed takes precidence over power. They're strategy is to chip away at their opponent with as many strikes as possible until they are defeated. Speed, speed, speed!

Inosanto stuff: Dan Inosanto really has his own methodoligy based on many different styles, some listed above. What I have seen from Inosanto's people is a lot of Wittic or whipping with the stick, relying on a powerful follow through and whipping to generate power.

Modern Arnis: Modern Arnis is very diverse due to it's founders (Presas) background. The strategy could depend on the player and the strength's of that player. Some use a lot of Wittic, some use abinickos, some use mostly full power strikes. One thing that is true with how Modern Arnis players is they have to be prepared for a full power blow in close, even if it followed or preceeded by  abinicko's or other strikes.

Now...out of the above, I only really train in Modern Arnis and Balintawak, but the other arts I have seen/experienced. My point is, how you hold your stick, and the perferred method of stiking will vary depending on what style you are doing, and what your striking strategy is.

*How to hold/strike from a Balintawak/Modern Arnis viewpoint:* 

Since the founder of Modern Arnis was influenced by his Balintawak training, the methods of holding the stick are virtually the same.

You want as heavy of a stick as you can get that you can control w/o straining your wrist. Your timing with your technique is more important then how fast you can whip your stick around. You grip the stick leaving yourself only 2-3 fingers worth of Puno (butt end). This is very important (although, I see that a lot of my peers manage to screw this one up). You want as much length of the stick as you can get w/o sacrificing all your puno, and there are a lot of techniques that depend on your butt end only being 2-3 fingers in length. When you strike, you strike with the very end (last 4 inches) to get maximum power and damage. You don't want to hit with the belly of the stick (any where in the middle) because you wont get the power you need. Your arm should be fully extended on impact. You strike w/ the power of your entire body, utilizing hip torque, and body mechanics. When you aim for a target, like the temple, you want to think that you are going to shatter his temple/skull. Only about a centimeter of your stick should be touching a centimeter of bone/target, concentrating all your power into a very small area. This could mean the difference between a strike that shatters, and a strike that only leaves a welt.

So...that should get you started. There are a lot of other aspects of "the strike", but again, a qualified instructor can help you further!

Have a good one!


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## sercuerdasfigther

paul, 

   just my insight. serrada is a very powerful art based off decuerdas which is hard hitting. it is also a percussion art were the multiple hits actually increase in power. the tightness of the art is what allows for the power. it does take time for a practiciner to develop this ability.


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## Rich Parsons

A follow up from Paul's post:

(* Assumption you are right handed *)

Place the cane with one end is the crook of your left elbow, the cane then should be lying across your left palm.

What you do not have a cane in your hand while you read. OK, Go get one and get caught up 

Ok, now turn your left palm towards you and push in with your right hand reaching out towards the cane. Fingers straigh out and on top of the cane and thumb straight out and underneath the cane. The stick should be riding on the webbing of your thumb. The placement of your hand depends upon the length of the cane and the amount of punyo you wish to have. I give it about 2 to 3 finger widths. Now rap your fingers around the cane. You wrist should be straight and the cane should be 90 degrees from your forearm.  This will help with control and also avoid wrist problems since yuor wrist in a natural alignment. (* When ever a baseball player grips a bat, he picks it up and then grips and re grips for placement and alignment of his hands and wrists, the same goes for tennis and for Golf. *) So, to just pick up a stick and swing it works, yet t could repetitive sysndrome problems later in your practice.

And yes, either provide the forum here your general location so we can recommend someone or cantact people privately if you see that they are from your area.

Best Wishes and Best Regards
:asian:


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## CiNcO dOsE

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *A follow up from Paul's post:
> 
> (* Assumption you are right handed *)
> 
> Place the cane with one end is the crook of your left elbow, the cane then should be lying across your left palm.
> 
> What you do not have a cane in your hand while you read. OK, Go get one and get caught up
> 
> Ok, now turn your left palm towards you and push in with your right hand reaching out towards the cane. Fingers straigh out and on top of the cane and thumb straight out and underneath the cane. The stick should be riding on the webbing of your thumb. The placement of your hand depends upon the length of the cane and the amount of punyo you wish to have. I give it about 2 to 3 finger widths. Now rap your fingers around the cane. You wrist should be straight and the cane should be 90 degrees from your forearm.  This will help with control and also avoid wrist problems since yuor wrist in a natural alignment. (* When ever a baseball player grips a bat, he picks it up and then grips and re grips for placement and alignment of his hands and wrists, the same goes for tennis and for Golf. *) So, to just pick up a stick and swing it works, yet t could repetitive sysndrome problems later in your practice.
> 
> And yes, either provide the forum here your general location so we can recommend someone or cantact people privately if you see that they are from your area.
> 
> Best Wishes and Best Regards
> :asian: *





hello hello everyone, thanks for the replies.  and pretty nice style insights paul.

first of all, my location:

Windsor Ontario Canada

some instructors do offer private lessons but they could get really pricy, and its not really their specialty.

Rich Parson:  
sorry, but i didnt quite understand the beginning of your post and some parts of it.  i like these kinds of explanation.  would you mind explaining it again or elaborate it more clearly please. 

again, thanks everyone for your replies.

filipino fighting arts are jsut really interesting.

take care everyone.


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## Rich Parsons

Place the cane on your left forearm.

One end should be at or in the crook of your left elbow, the other end should be hanging out over your left hand/palm. Grab the stick with your right hand.


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## CiNcO dOsE

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Place the cane on your left forearm.
> 
> One end should be at or in the crook of your left elbow, the other end should be hanging out over your left hand/palm. Grab the stick with your right hand. *




silly me   thanks.


straight wrist and cane 90 degrees from forearm: do you keep these when you strike?!  in general?!


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## bart

Hey There,

I think that if you wouldn't mind a little drive every other week, you could get some training in by just crossing into Michigan. It's far but not that far. Training under someone good every week or so will get you some basic skills and then you can work with friends or a small group of your own after that. 

There are a few really talented guys just across the border. I used to do a 60 mile round trip 3 times a week to train. You get used to it. 

Have you checked out the instructors list off of www.martialartsresource.com (http://www.pekiti-tirsia.org:8080/FMA/Instructors/search.html) for any instructors near you? Most of them you won't find in the phone book. 

Anyway, best of luck


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## lhommedieu

It is certainly true that different styles have variations on how to grip the stick.  One aspect of gripping that I was taught has not been mentioned:  _grip the stick more tightly with the last three fingers than with the forefinger and thumb_.  In my experience, this practice leads to cleaner, more precise stroking patterns, particularly when one is concerned with cutting with the "edge" of the last six inches or so of the stick.  In this context, the following may also be useful:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/bodymechanics.htm

When learning Pekiti Tirsia and Estacata, I was taught to make the distance of a fist between the bottom of my gripping fist and the puno.  This gives you enough puno to use at close quarters for hitting and trapping.  (Other systems, however, make do with less puno space and also include hittting and trapping at close range).  

When using the stick at a longer range, however, I like to use a little less puno to add an inch or two to the range of the stick.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Cruentus

An old Modern Arnis Buddy of mine is in Windser, but he is frequently busy/out of town w/ work and family, so I don't think he is teaching.

Right accross the border from you there are quite a few FMA people, myself being one of them, as Bart said.

I invite you to come to my class on Sunday's @ 12 noon til 2 or 3pm (depending on what's going on that day). It's about 50-70 minutes from Winsor depending on your exact location. Also...we have a Modern Arnis Camp coming up that would be a perfect opportunity for you to get introduced into the arts, and meet some new people.

Check this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7937

My ph # is on there, so use it if you have questions. I can refer you to other instructors as well, because we have quite a few in MI. The famous Rich Parsons ( ) who has been a part of this discussion, will be teaching at the training camp; he is in Flint which is about 45 minutes from me, meaning a longer drive for you if you were going to see him. There are other people, though, who might be closer to you, but who might not teach at the times/days that you need.

So...you best bet is to train at the camp to get a good start, and we can link you up with an instructor from their.


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## CiNcO dOsE

thank you everyone.

seminar in michigan sounds really really interesting and would  really be a great oportunity for me.

i have  checked some dojos here in windsor, and so far only found 2 who offers arnis, but both specializes in karate. and theres also another who trained with late grandmaster remy presas before, but his dojo is an hour or so away.

my big problem is that, i dont have a car.  thats why its pretty hard for me to go to far places and all.  but for the seminar i will try to invite a couple of my friends (they both have their own car  ) and if our schedule permits, then seminar we go (crossing fingers).  actually one of them trained kali de leon in toronto, jsut for a year or so.

i need advice too on my other situation.  i broke my hand this summer, around mid july03, and had my cast removed just first week of sept.  broke the bone which connects my ring finger to my wirst (metacarpal) on my left hand.  still recovering and still pretty fragile and weak.  would this hold me back a lot in training?!  im right handed though.


take care everyone.


salamat.


*** im right along the border, university of windsor


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## Rich Parsons

Vega,

Thank you for considering the Michigan Modern Arnis Camp.
:asian:

Talk to Paul is you need a single day Rate.


You injury, could hold you back in your live hand or checking hand techniques. Yet, in the beginning keeping your hand in the center of your chest and just practicing the angles of attack. Check out this forum and the Modern Arnis forum, there are a few threads that detail striking patterns.

Good Luck


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by d. dela vega _
> *thank you everyone.
> 
> seminar in michigan sounds really really interesting and would  really be a great oportunity for me.
> 
> i have  checked some dojos here in windsor, and so far only found 2 who offers arnis, but both specializes in karate. and theres also another who trained with late grandmaster remy presas before, but his dojo is an hour or so away.
> 
> my big problem is that, i dont have a car.  thats why its pretty hard for me to go to far places and all.  but for the seminar i will try to invite a couple of my friends (they both have their own car  ) and if our schedule permits, then seminar we go (crossing fingers).  actually one of them trained kali de leon in toronto, jsut for a year or so.
> 
> i need advice too on my other situation.  i broke my hand this summer, around mid july03, and had my cast removed just first week of sept.  broke the bone which connects my ring finger to my wirst (metacarpal) on my left hand.  still recovering and still pretty fragile and weak.  would this hold me back a lot in training?!  im right handed though.
> 
> 
> take care everyone.
> 
> 
> salamat.
> 
> 
> *** im right along the border, university of windsor *



Cool...sounds good! Just keep me updated, and let me know what you need! :asian:


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## bart

Hey,

Not that I advise training without the ok from a doctor, but I've trained before with broken fingers and carpals. 

What I would suggest is that you get a long cloth bandage, the kind that has latex threads so that it sticks to itself, and then wrap the hand firmly but not tight enough to restrict blood flow.  Make sure that it's wrapped a couple times over but not so much that you can't make a fist, three layers deep at the most.  You want it to act like boxing hand wraps, but the latex part will still allow you to grip a stick or a dagger. 

If you take it easy and don't risk the hand unecessarily, then it will be fine. If the bone is actually already healed, then this treatment will give it a good layer of protection. If it's still broken, then this will at least keep down the swelling, and allow you to participate. 

When I was a bouncer I had two broken fingers that took a couple months to heal. I wrapped them like this and it kept them safe through many a tussle, although I would probably have healed faster and better if I had a different, less physical line of work at the time.


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## DoxN4cer

Hello all,

DDV, there is a lot of dogma to wade through from system to sytem in terms of how one should grasp the baston and strike with it. My post will be brief. 

How you grasp the baston is relative to its the length and weight. We can talk all day about how much punyo to use, but all you really need is enough to find balance in the baston. If you choose to "choke-up" on the weapon you should be aware that you may be giving your opponent a good lever to disarm you with. If you don't leave any punyo, then you deprive yourself of a good close-in fighting tool. Your choice of baston should be a matter of personal preference rather than what "guro so-and-so" might tell you that you should use.

Striking... ever hear of the bladed weapon concept? Imagine that when you're striking that you have a hatchet (representing the last 3 inches of the baston) in your hand. Now, every time you strike, you want that blade to be your contact point. Every time you swing the baston you rotate your forearm to facilitate the blade of the hatchet.

As you strike you should shift your weight to put your body behind the strike increase the power. This bodyshifting also allows you to fire you shots from a defensible position.  Combat is not static, even at close range. Fire and maneuver.  

Hope this was simple enough.

Tim Kashino


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## Cruentus

Kashino: Nice explaination!

vega: I will say, that I have had students with injuries like broken fingers, hands, arms even, etc. We have always been able to work around it!


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## CiNcO dOsE

my hand is "usable" now for day to day things as long as theyre gentle.  jsut no hard pressure, sudden impact like getting hit on the back of the hand by sticks , no push ups either, no punching (sucks eh) etc.., as these could still easily rebreak my hand.  if im doing some activities, ive been wearing just a normal weight glove just to warn/tell people to be careful with my injured hand.


salamat.


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## lhommedieu

> _Originally posted by d. dela vega _
> *my hand is "usable" now for day to day things as long as theyre gentle.  jsut no hard pressure, sudden impact like getting hit on the back of the hand by sticks , no push ups either, no punching (sucks eh) etc.., as these could still easily rebreak my hand.  if im doing some activities, ive been wearing just a normal weight glove just to warn/tell people to be careful with my injured hand.
> 
> 
> salamat. *



Re. martial arts injuries:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/training_resources.htm

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> _grip the stick more tightly with the last three fingers than with the forefinger and thumb_
> 
> Steve,
> 
> I was taught this as well!  I have a few students who still try to use to much thumb and forefinger, similar to a saber grip, and have come to find out that they are doing it to compensate for a weak (net yet developed) wrist.  While this does allow a little bit of stability in holding the stick, they are cheating the development of strength and flexibility in the wrist.  I have noticed also that it limits the rotation of the stick (try it and you'll see what I mean).  This is also a gripping technique used in knife, which allows for "cat's whiskers" or controling/pinching techniques with the thumb and forefinger.
> 
> Something to add...have a secure comfortable grip on the stick, but not a death grip. as the the stick swings through its arc your grip is this way, right before the moment of impact, tighten your grip, this will add acceleration/snap to your strike. To get a better idea of what I'm talking about hold a stick in front of you then squeeze it.  You should see the stick move.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Andy


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## bart

> grip the stick more tightly with the last three fingers than with the forefinger and thumb





> and have come to find out that they are doing it to compensate for a weak (net yet developed) wrist. While this does allow a little bit of stability in holding the stick, they are cheating the development of strength and flexibility in the wrist.



 I was taught the same way and I agree with you both totally. One of the best descriptions that I was given was that you should hold the stick the way a baby holds your finger if you let him/her grab it. They hold with the last three fingers and it's a surprisingly strong grip with very little effort or tension. 

Without gripping this way snapping and curving strikes are impossible or extremely weakened at best.


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## lhommedieu

Also makes sense if the butt of your weapon is slightly flared, i.e., it allow for a natural, relaxed grip against a non-slip barrier.

For some reason, making the last three fingers tighter than the first two also appears to make the wrist less succeptible to outside wrist-locks, daga strips, etc.  Haven't been able to figure out why -  except that maybe the last three fingers are more uniformly aligned to the carpal bones than the forefinger and thumb (which juts out at an angle).   Or maybe that by tensing these fingers more than the others, the tendons and muscles on the ulnar side of the wrist are simply stronger than they would otherwise be...

Food for thought - and a good party trick.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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