# Self Preservation



## rabbit (Feb 22, 2008)

My instructor said that it is human nature to want to protect our life and body. We don't try to hurt ourselves on purpose. If i feel pain I avoid the feeling. Anything to make it stop.

If this is true then why do people kill themselves? It goes against the instinct of protecting our life. Why?


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 22, 2008)

That drive to suicide comes from a number of places.

I can only speak for myself but the couple of times I've been on the brink of becoming 'not living' have been spurred by the joint pressures of a feeling of lack of worth and too much emotional pain.

There comes a point where the only way you see to make the 'pain' stop is to cease to be.

Scarily enough, it's oddly not illogical to you in the moment and I've only been 'saved' by considering what the effect my 'removing' myself would have on my family and friends.  That and, absurd as it may sound, a sense of conscience about not wanting to leave such a mess for someone else to clean up (having ever been interested in swords and blades that was my chosen 'method' and would've made quite a 'splash' so to speak).


----------



## rabbit (Feb 22, 2008)

Thank you for sharing.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 22, 2008)

My pleasure, *Rabbit*.  

It's a sensitive issue but only by people talking about it, particularly those who've been down there in that dark 'pit' can some sort of sense be made of it.

I know we had a large number of posts in a thread about depression and this is strongly related so I hope that we can get a variety of perspectives leading to some sort of consensus.


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 22, 2008)

People take their lives for different reasons such as to save another's pride anger love what ever...I had a teacher who was discussing suicide and depression and he said something like " you never know what tomorrow will bring it could be the best damn day you ever had and you have to live for that hope"


----------



## Drac (Feb 22, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> There comes a point where the only way you see to make the 'pain' stop is to cease to be


 
Well said Sukerkin...


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2008)

There are different reasons for suicide, and they're all complicated.  Sukerkin put it well; often it's simply the only way that the person can find to end an intolerable situation or make the pain stop.  It's a response to being so far down that you can't percieve that there is an up.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Feb 23, 2008)

rabbit said:


> My instructor said that it is human nature to want to protect our life and body. We don't try to hurt ourselves on purpose. If i feel pain I avoid the feeling. Anything to make it stop....



You hit it right there.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 23, 2008)

In my case it was a combination of emotional pain and a phsyical illness which I didn't know I had meaning I was too exhausted to cope with the bad things that were going on in my life at the time. I actually ended up in hospital after taking an overdose. it was at the time very simple, I wanted the pain to stop, I just wanted peace. I suppose there was also a small peice of me that wanted the person who had caused the pain to realise how much he had hurt me but it wasn't a revenge thing. I'd just had enough.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Feb 23, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> You hit it right there.



You beat me to it DJ. That's exactly what it is. The pain of living is greater than the temporary "pain" of ending it. Suicide is about ending emotional pain, which, IMO, is worse than physical pain. A suicidal person sees no other way to stop the pain.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 24, 2008)

Reading Irene's experience above made me think of something postive that can be drawn from a discussion like this. 

Tho' depression and other forces can be an impetous to suicide when we think that life is to painful to endure, those who reach that extreme state but come through the other side, one way or another, are living proof of an aphorism sometimes viewed as twee these days i.e. we can survive more than we think we can.

I was going to say "nothing is ever as bad as it seems" but, in some cases it really is.  There generally is another avenue to 'getting through' than suicide nonetheless; the trouble is finding it when that black pit is so deep you can't see out.

As a postscript to this, *Tez*, I can't recall if I reciprocated your kind offer in your PM the other day.  I certainly meant to.  So, if that circling 'black dog' gets dangerous again, please feel no hesitation in getting in touch.  I can't do much more than listen but, having been there myself, sometimes that's enough to get you from one hour to the next.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 24, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Reading Irene's experience above made me think of something postive that can be drawn from a discussion like this.
> 
> Tho' depression and other forces can be an impetous to suicide when we think that life is to painful to endure, those who reach that extreme state but come through the other side, one way or another, are living proof of an aphorism sometimes viewed as twee these days i.e. we can survive more than we think we can.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you!


----------



## thardey (Feb 26, 2008)

I tell you what, there are few things as chilling as being on the phone with someone who has decided that life wasn't worth living anymore, and you "catch" their plans.

Happened to me a few weeks ago. My friend was in a rough situation, and started talking about making plans for "a long trip." At first I thought he was going to Idaho or something, then I realized what he meant.

After I got it in the open, he kept saying that everybody hated him, and wanted him dead. I knew that I couldn't hang up and call a hotline, so I was it. That was a helpless feeling, especially since I've never felt that way personally, even though I have been around suicidal thoughts from people around me for years.

Unfortunately, he chose to end our friendship last week, but at least he is still around to have ended it. :idunno:


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 27, 2008)

Hi *Thardey*

I'm certainly no expert on these matters (having had to talk someone away from the brink only once) but I can say from experience that the 'severing of ties' is common side-effect of depression.

It can come from both sides of a friendship and can be passive or active.  

What I mean by 'passive' is that is that friendships can be allowed to 'die' by simply not 'feeding' them any more (I basically went to work and hid in my flat each day for a couple of years, which pretty much killed all my friendships).  The 'active' approach is where an actual choice to end the friendship is made and sometimes vocalised (sometimes bluntly ).

Regardless, that 'withdrawal from the world' is not a good sign and, tho' your erstwhile friend might not appreciate it now, it may be worthwhile just to check on him every now and again.  I had one old friend that did that for me when I was in the depths and in the end that slender life-line back to the 'outside' did the trick.

As I disclaimed tho', I'm no expert, I've just lived through my 'version' of the Black Pit, so I could be way off.  I don't want to speak for someone or put them on the spot but it might be worth having a word with *myusername* as he's worked in the field and may have some experience that will be helpful.


----------



## thardey (Feb 27, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Hi *Thardey*
> 
> I'm certainly no expert on these matters (having had to talk someone away from the brink only once) but I can say from experience that the 'severing of ties' is common side-effect of depression.
> 
> ...



This one was definitely active, and very blunt. It was because I gave him advice he didn't want to hear, and I wouldn't tell him what he wanted. But what he wanted me to tell him would have locked him into his self-destructive cycle. So he "punished" me by severing our friendship. He's isolating himself from anyone who doesn't make him "feel" better, even though his "feelings" are destroying his life. The sad part is, I was the last person among our mutual friends that would still even talk to him. He's talked about suicide many times before, but it was usually as a thinly veiled manipulation. ("If you don't help me get my fix I'm going to kill myself" kind of stuff.) This time was different. 

Basically he's getting a "high" off of being a victim to his manipulative, some (including me) would say mentally abusive, ex-wife. He's addicted/obsessed with the attention she gives him, but she's only interested in "playing" with him. The whole "I feel bad, so come back," then two days later "go away, I'm getting a restraining order." Every time he get sucked back into the game, and gets hurt worse after the rejection. After the 6th or 7th cycle, you can't help but notice a pattern.

Maybe *myusername* will stop by and see this thread, and if he does, I will welcome his input.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 28, 2008)

Here's an interesting new take on depression and it's long term effects:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/magazine/7268496.stm

It seems that it's not all bad after all .


----------



## thardey (Feb 28, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Here's an interesting new take on depression and it's long term effects:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/em/fr/-/1/hi/magazine/7268496.stm
> 
> It seems that it's not all bad after all .



That's a great article.

Here's another that I recently sent to one of my friends fighting depression:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=18885211


----------



## Catalyst (Feb 28, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> I can only speak for myself but the couple of times I've been on the brink of becoming 'not living'


 
I really value your posts and your insights, especially in "The Study" and "The Locker Room". I'm really glad you stepped back from the brink and are still here with us today.


----------



## JBrainard (Feb 28, 2008)

Hello everyone,
Becoming suicidal is not just having unbearable emotional pain, it is also having the scewed perception that the pain is permanent. That is what drives one to suicide. Tez3, I'm very sorry to hear about your experience. I've been in the exact same place, so I know what you went through. I've been going to therapy ever since, and one of the most important concepts I had to grasp right after getting out of the hostpital was that emotional pain isn't permanent, it is only a "state of feeling," if you will. I've only been close to the edge once since my "stunt," and what got me through it was knowing that if I just went to bed for the night, I would probably feel a little better the next morning. As wierd as it sounds, it worked.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 28, 2008)

Hi *J*

Altho' everyones coping strategies differ, I like that insight you made about the perception of the circumstance being permanent.  

It is that perception that is your _reality_ when all is said and done and one of the signatures of depression is that you lose the 'normal' amount of control over your perspective of the world.

For me, because I'm a stubborn SOB in every way, it took me two years or more to climb out of my last visit to the Dark Pit - I'm even persistent when it's against my own best interests it seems :lol:.  

I truly couldn't see my way out of it so, in common with many manic depressives, I propped myself up with copious amounts of alcohol (the appropriately named Southern Comfort being my 'crutch of choice' (can't stand the stuff now )).  It evens out the highs and lows a bit but I wouldn't recommend it as a treatment method as hangovers plus depression is not a pleasant equation .

Eventually I caught a glimpse of the truth that you espoused i.e. it is my perception that has changed, not the world itself.  I got there with the help of a close friend who I owe a mountain of karmic debt to for putting up with me during this time (ironically, it is she at present that is battling depression and she talks to me because she knows that I know).

Once I fastened on to that, I turned my tenacity on making my perception change to a less doom-laden one.

The reason why I mention all of this is that I made it 'back' without any doctors visits or medication (other than the aforementioned Southern Comfort ).  The mind can bend and misconceive quite readily but it is also capable of mending too.  So, no matter how deep the despair and bitter the tears, you can always make it back - 'checking out' is one solution but not the only one nor the best.


----------



## Jade Tigress (Feb 28, 2008)

Major depression is very serious. You can't just pull yourself out. There are real, physical symptoms. I have been diagnosed with major depression. The thing is, I am an optimistic person by nature. A lifetime, and I mean LIFETIME, of one traumatic event after the other has come my way. I could tell story after story from early childhood to present. All things that have been out of my control. I dealt and dealt the best I could. The first suicidal thought I had was around age 9 or 10. They have haunted me for a lifetime. I have had numerous plans. What keeps me from going through with it? As a child, I don't know, age I guess. I didn't know what depression was or that the feelings of despair I had were depression. I repressed memories to cope, but it didn't alleviate the depression, it just hid why I was depressed. As an adult, what keeps from doing it is my children and my faith, though that doesn't stop me from thinking about or wishing for some sort of escape, to the point of death. 

I have been on an antidepressant for about 4 years now. Before I started on meds, my life got to the point where I couldn't function...at all. The simplest of tasks took every ounce of energy I had and I lost interest in doing anything at all. Now I can *function*, but I still feel depression every day and there are still days I just want to crawl into bed and never wake up. At first the med helped alot, but once again, circumstances stole away my progress. Now the antidepressant helps me keep going. Is is not a "happy pill" by any means. They are over prescribed and many people who shouldn't be on an antidepressant are. But for those with true major depression, they can be a lifesaver. Without it, I would be unable to hold a job. When I finally did go to the doctor for it, he asked if I was working. Fortunately I wasn't at the time. I knew I couldn't have if I did, and he was ready to put me on medical leave if I was. I have been in counseling 3 times. Twice before starting the antidepressant, and once after. Counseling didn't/doesn't help me much. 

I was doing some research on depression a few years ago. I found this bit of information, it's just something I saved because it explains things for me knowing that I am not a negative or gloomy type person. I like to laugh, I like to have fun. 



> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Recently, a study has been done on the way chronic stress contributes to depression (Health Magazine, April 2000). *Researchers believe that continuous stress over a long period of time "hard wires" the brain into operating in stress mode all the time, triggering depression. *[/FONT]


I believe this is what happened to me. I have continued to hang on because I have hope for the future. Then again, at times the future seems so desolate, and I struggle with my choices and the direction they will take me. I'm currently at a major crossroad in my life, wondering whether to continue on a new path or return to the known one. And this is where you get to feeling there is no way out. You feel stuck. 

Well, enough of my rambling. I started this reply to address the articles claiming depression can be good. I disagree with the use of the term depression in the articles. Having the "blues" at times can be good. Feeling sadness can be good. These things can prompt evaluation and good change. Major depression is NOT good and interferes with every aspect of life.


----------



## morph4me (Feb 28, 2008)

Catalyst said:


> I really value your posts and your insights, especially in "The Study" and "The Locker Room". I'm really glad you stepped back from the brink and are still here with us today.


 
I second that, MT would not be the same without you.


----------



## Sukerkin (Feb 29, 2008)

I'm very flattered at the kind words above, *Catalyst* and *morph4me* - thank you deeply for the sentiment :rei:.


----------



## JBrainard (Feb 29, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> ...I truly couldn't see my way out of it so, in common with many manic depressives, I propped myself up with copious amounts of alcohol (the appropriately named Southern Comfort being my 'crutch of choice' (can't stand the stuff now )). It evens out the highs and lows a bit but I wouldn't recommend it as a treatment method as hangovers plus depression is not a pleasant equation...


 
My experience was a little different. When I really started to downspiral I started drinking as a means to cope but, while it dulled the pain a bit, it hindered me from being able to deal with the environmental issues that were contributing to my depression. I was also a very angry drunk, which never helped things.



Jade Tigress said:


> Major depression is very serious. You can't just pull yourself out. There are real, physical symptoms. I have been diagnosed with major depression. The thing is, I am an optimistic person by nature. A lifetime, and I mean LIFETIME, of one traumatic event after the other has come my way. I could tell story after story from early childhood to present. All things that have been out of my control. I dealt and dealt the best I could. The first suicidal thought I had was around age 9 or 10. They have haunted me for a lifetime. I have had numerous plans. What keeps me from going through with it? As a child, I don't know, age I guess. I didn't know what depression was or that the feelings of despair I had were depression. I repressed memories to cope, but it didn't alleviate the depression, it just hid why I was depressed. As an adult, what keeps from doing it is my children and my faith, though that doesn't stop me from thinking about or wishing for some sort of escape, to the point of death.
> 
> I have been on an antidepressant for about 4 years now. Before I started on meds, my life got to the point where I couldn't function...at all. The simplest of tasks took every ounce of energy I had and I lost interest in doing anything at all. Now I can *function*, but I still feel depression every day and there are still days I just want to crawl into bed and never wake up. At first the med helped alot, but once again, circumstances stole away my progress. Now the antidepressant helps me keep going. Is is not a "happy pill" by any means. They are over prescribed and many people who shouldn't be on an antidepressant are. But for those with true major depression, they can be a lifesaver. Without it, I would be unable to hold a job. When I finally did go to the doctor for it, he asked if I was working. Fortunately I wasn't at the time. I knew I couldn't have if I did, and he was ready to put me on medical leave if I was. I have been in counseling 3 times. Twice before starting the antidepressant, and once after. Counseling didn't/doesn't help me much.


 
Jade, if I may make a (hopefully helpfull) observation: Counceling, in my experience at least, helps a hell of a lot to bring closure to traumatic events that have happened in ones life. I wouldn't give up on that method of treatment. The problem you are having with counseling my be due to the fact that there are A LOT of ****** counselors and a select few really good ones out there. Counseling itself may not be ineffective for you, just the counselors you have/are seeing. I would recomend (and if you don't agree I won't be offended, as these things are very personal) that you ask around and get multiple referalls to a counselor that is well versed in helping people who have to deal with the baggage associated with traumatic life events. It may help you more than the meds ever will.
But then again, I'm not a doctor, I just play one on TV 



Jade Tigress said:


> I was doing some research on depression a few years ago. I found this bit of information, it's just something I saved because it explains things for me knowing that I am not a negative or gloomy type person. I like to laugh, I like to have fun.
> 
> I believe this is what happened to me. I have continued to hang on because I have hope for the future. Then again, at times the future seems so desolate, and I struggle with my choices and the direction they will take me. I'm currently at a major crossroad in my life, wondering whether to continue on a new path or return to the known one. And this is where you get to feeling there is no way out. You feel stuck.
> 
> Well, enough of my rambling. I started this reply to address the articles claiming depression can be good. I disagree with the use of the term depression in the articles. Having the "blues" at times can be good. Feeling sadness can be good. These things can prompt evaluation and good change. Major depression is NOT good and interferes with every aspect of life.


 
I firmly believe in the whole "re-wireing" idea about trauma/depression/whatever. It takes a process of developing healthy coping skills and using them over time to re-wire your brain back to a healthy state (as much as is permitted by a person's brain chemistry).
You also mentioned that the "blues" and sadness can be good. Your absolutely right. About 6 months ago something happened to me that was, well, depressing and it was hard to for me to know how to react. Should I fight the depression it caused? Would supressing my depressed reaction be healthy? It's a crazy road we are on...


----------

