# Makiwara or Sandbag?



## FlyingChopSticks (Apr 9, 2004)

Hi fellow karatekas , 
Could you give me some advise on this matter? Should I build my own Makiwara or just buy a sandbag off the self for my training?

Your Advice is much appreciated 

Regards
Flying Chop Sticks  :flame:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 1, 2004)

Looks like no one replied, and you may have stopped checking in. In the event you do look back in, I'm personally a fan of Makiwara, but not the store-bought, soft type. If you really want to have some fun, get a towel and some duct-tape. Fold the towel so it is folded multiple times, and about 6-8 inches wide, and long enough to wrap around a tree. 

Next, duct-tape the thing around the tree so you have just enough material padding to avoid abrading your skin on the bark.  Pick a spot slightly flattened, as you'll be mashing it with your forefist.  

Next, pick a sample strike that represents each part of your hand that is used as a weapon (i.e., front punch, hammerfist, inward hand-sword, back fist, and palm heel). Start by doing 20-50 repetitions with each hand, of each blow, on the striking cloth, softly. You should notice some stifffness, soreness, and inflammatory reaxtion. Gradually (i.e., a little bit each week) increase the solidity with which you thump the tree with each rep. As the free nerve endings in your hand numb in response to the repetitive blunt trauma, you should be able to hit progressively harder and harder. Additionally, the bone will respond to the directional stress by thickening in supportive matriculae, and the muscles under the skin surfaces you strike with will become leaner and harder in adaptation to the demand.

You can increase the intensity by increasing either the number of strikes, or the power of each strike. I personally prefer to increase the power, since there is a prominent theory that you will fight the way you train. Therefore, you would want to strike hard a couple of time, instead of softly, dozens of times.

Pick a fixed length of time (6 months?), and strike the makiwara/towel-covered tree every other day for that fixed time period. Take a mental snapshot of your focus (kime) and power on day one, and compare it to your focus and power on the end of the training cycle. You should have an appreciable difference.

Forewarning: This type of training is NOT good for your hands, or wrists. It can lead to early degenerative joint disease, and bone buttressing disorders.  You will definitely hit harder, but may develop Quasimodo fists. Mas Oyama had to have bone removed from his knuckles surgically, because they got so big he could not open his hands. Granted, he's an extreme example (along with guys like Tak Kubota), but even less extreme usage can lead to joint disorders. 

Good luck, train hard, and let us know what happens for you.

Dr. Dave


----------



## marshallbd (May 1, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Looks like no one replied, and you may have stopped checking in. In the event you do look back in, I'm personally a fan of Makiwara, but not the store-bought, soft type. If you really want to have some fun, get a towel and some duct-tape. Fold the towel so it is folded multiple times, and about 6-8 inches wide, and long enough to wrap around a tree.


  How large of a towel do you use?  A dish towel or something bigger or is it just relative to the amount of padding you prefer?



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> You can increase the intensity by increasing either the number of strikes, or the power of each strike. I personally prefer to increase the power, since there is a prominent theory that you will fight the way you train. Therefore, you would want to strike hard a couple of time, instead of softly, dozens of times.


When you have increased the power to a level that you are not comfortable passing, should you take the power down a few notches and increase the reps and begin building the power back up or just add a couple of repetitions in? Which would be more beneficial?        



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Take a mental snapshot of your focus (kime) and power on day one, and compare it to your focus and power on the end of the training cycle. You should have an appreciable difference.


This is probably beneficial to ANYTHING you train in and want to improve in....( the snapshot )



			
				Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Forewarning: This type of training is NOT good for your hands, or wrists. It can lead to early degenerative joint disease, and bone buttressing disorders.  You will definitely hit harder, but may develop Quasimodo fists. Mas Oyama had to have bone removed from his knuckles surgically, because they got so big he could not open his hands. Granted, he's an extreme example (along with guys like Tak Kubota), but even less extreme usage can lead to joint disorders.


  I would have to agree but it does look to be enjoyable (if not painful) training!!! :asian:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 2, 2004)

I usually use a bath-towel...it's longer than wide; after only the first week, you'll have compressed the fibers so there is little padding left. The only real function it serves at this point is to provide a training surface you can hit without scraping the snot out of your knuckles on rough bark (I started on a pine tree, then switched to a maple, and finally ended on a big-ole aspen).

Take the power level to your comfort level, and stay there for awhile. Eventually, you'll have either a bad day to blow off steam from, or your body will let you know it's ready for more by keying for you to push previous boundaries and find a new reference point. I hit one level wherein I was sure anything harder would fracture my meta-carpals. Stayed there about a month. One evening, beating on the poor tree, it occurred to me I could go a little harder, the a little more, and so on. Found a new solidity with which to hit. 

What is the difference btw a percussive strike and a concussive strike? Concussive = heavy bag training = you hit the guy, aim deep into the target, and displace the target from it's original position with the strike; hit him so hard, you knock him off his feet. Percussive strike = makiwara = strike AT the surface of the target (or just behind it) so that the target stays right where it was, but the surface that was struck is fractured or damaged. Used to do a lab with my students with the 1-gallon milk jugs with the plastic tops that pop off. Concussion: Fill it with water, set it on the top of a 5-foot 4x4 post, and whack it so you send it flying. Often the cap doesn't come off until the jug is on its lazy way down to the ground. Percussion: Deep snap punch the jug so that the water is compressed, shoots the cap off the jug and up into the air, but the jug remains seated on the 4x4...doesn't go anywhere, just empties 1/4 to 1/2 of its contents (it's actually quite hard to empty the jug without displacing it, but after you do, the percussive striking demo tricks all become infinitely easier...it's like your body finally gets it). 

Makiwara training is good for a couple of things:
1. Not feeling pain in your hand when you hit a guy, and not damaging your wrist secondary to strengthening.

2. Cool percussive striking skills. Punch the guy in the face, and fracture teeth, nose, facial bones, etc., but he's still right there (if you're in a crowd and can't afford to John Wayne the guy into a group of people, but definitely have to do him enough harm to make him stop in his tracks).

3. Breaking what you hit. Board breaking in a stack with spacers = an exaggerated concussive strike. Breaking a board free-floating in space (tossed up) = percussive strike; the energy of the blow is dispersed maximally at the point of contact. Works for faces, ribs, joints and wrists (every block is also a strike), etc. I still have not found a Wooden man dummy built well enough to take makiwara-type training without falling apart. Instead, have taken 4-foot cuts of telephone pole, and hung them by rope or fastened them to fixed rigs. Next, take each block from Short Form One, and do it 100 times a day, each side, on the pole, progressively harder to tolerance. In sparring, replace checking off an attack before countering with a couple of these conditioned blocks. Do it to the first several attacks your partner throws, and you can watch them become trepidatious about throwing anything else. One of my first instructors really took the Funakoshi admonition to make your arms and legs like swords seriously. Said he never threw a punch in self defense; only blocks, and still broke bones. I never got that hard core, but did manage to reach a place where sparring partners hesitated about offensive sniper fire b/c the bruises they'd recieve. :uhyeah: 

Train hard.

D.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 2, 2004)

There is an excellent video documentary on the MA called, simply, "Budo". It briefly covers each of the major JMA.  When it comes to karate, awesome intro.  You hear this "clang, clang, clang" as the camera pans the length of a train. When they get to the "trailer hitch" of the iron horse, there's a little japanese guy beating on the sides and back of the train, using the bare iron for his makiwara.  Sounds like someone hitting it with a ball peen hammer. Of course, they go on to show him doing the finger spears in bucket-o-sand thing, as well.

Guy goes on to do some impressive demo breaking, including finger spears to apples to gouge chunks out of them (try it...harder than it looks). What's evident is that this guy may not be as sophisticated in his karate as some of the other karate systems, but really doesn't need to be, either. If he does manage to get his licks in, you're gonna feel it for a loooong time (or maybe not at all).

Downright inspiring as to what kind of tempering we can do with our natural weapons, if you have that kind of mindless dedication and extra time on your hands.  I'm also down the street from Takayuki Kubota's school: He had a book out many mooons ago with natural weapon tempering drills.  One I liked so much I stole it: drill a hole in the bottom part of the handle of a 10-lb sledge hammer, and string a rope through it that goes from one wall to another. With the hammer swinging like a pendulum in a plane perpendicular to the rope, practice punching it so that it swings up and over the rope, 360-degrees. I think this training may be what caused my arthritis (duh?), but I've yet to hurt my hand or wrist throwing a blow to a solid or soft target on an opponent. Bounced with lots of guys who broke their hands punching idiots. Knock on wood (read: my head), I've yet to ever do the same.

Just for kicks,

Dave.


----------



## KennethKu (May 3, 2004)

I happen to know a thing or two about the Iron Hand training.  The info posted here in this thread should be labelled as "How NOT to do Iron Hand training." 

It isn't training. It is self-inflicted injury.  It would be nice if people who post actually know what they are talking about.

BTW, Oyama's hands were fine. He had them x-rayed twice. One was done shortly before he died. There was nothing abnormal found.


----------



## Matt Stone (May 3, 2004)

When I was in Japan, I worked in a building that had concrete hallway walls.  I would walk down the hall on one side, rapping my knuckles on the wall lightly, everywhere I went.  Over time I would get in 500+ smacks on the wall at moderate power per day.  No disfigurement, no scarring, no arthritis.

The iron palm training I've received had less to do with "tempering" the knuckles and more to do with conditioning the hand as a whole striking surface.  It also taught you in short order how to strike properly, to "stick" to the target briefly at the moment of impact.

Makiwara training is similar.  It has much less to do with making your knuckles large masses of disfigured callus and more to do with teaching you proper stance and alignment of the strike.

But do what you want.  Just remember, like the saying "you'll miss your knees when they're gone" implies, you'll have to live with the damage you do now long into old age...


----------



## chufeng (May 3, 2004)

Hitting a tree is fine if you've done a couple of years of training to withstand the damage you WILL otherwise do to your hand...

Iron palm is a progressive training...you don't start at hitting concrete walls OR hitting a padded tree.

Makiwara training is also supposed to be progressive...and the makiwara should have some flexibility built into it...Start with pressing...then light punching and sticking with a press...then more moderate striking force with a press...then full out with a press...then short, sharp strikes (which may actually break your makiwara). Pounding away at something without knowing what you are doing (or why) WILL result in damage to the joints (all the way up to and including the shoulder joint). Makiwara training does not require any special herbal linaments...

Sand bag training is fine, but you really should start with a bag of beans, then a bag of rice, then a bag of sand...30 to 60 days each (every day for 10 to 15 minutes) before moving up to the denser media. Get a decent iron palm recipe if you plan on pursuing intensive iron palm training. Do Not Train Without it!

Hope this helps.
chufeng


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 3, 2004)

Personal Life Goal: To be as cool as Kenneth, and know everything about everything, at such a tender age.:boing2:


----------



## KennethKu (May 4, 2004)

Martial artists such as Matt Stone and Chufeng, are God's gift to the MA world. Not only their knowledge and expertise are extensive and indepth, but their enthusiasm and dedication to share and to enlighten us, represent all that is good, decent and honorable.


----------



## Matt Stone (May 4, 2004)

KennethKu said:
			
		

> Martial artists such as Matt Stone and Chufeng, are God's gift to the MA world.



I don't know about that...  In fact, I'd probably doubt the accuracy of that statement and recommend the maker be tested for sobriety immediately...


----------



## KennethKu (May 4, 2004)

On the contrary, Matt, I am quite sober. lol

It is as clear as daylight that the information, advice, analysis that put forth by you, Chufeng, Mr Starr, Mike Clark, Robert Rousselot etc, are insighful, invaluable and enligthening.  They can only be described as God's gifts to the MA world.

Unfortunately, there are times that, it does seem like such wisdom bestowed onto a bunch of ingrates is like,  "spawnnig pearls in front of swines."    lol


----------



## Matt Stone (May 4, 2004)

Information is information.  Stupid is as stupid does.

One reason I share pretty much anything is because, for the most part, if someone isn't inclined to go through the training required to learn certain things, telling them or showing them won't matter anyway.

Some folks are set in their ways, and their version of reality, no matter how narrow, is well defined and safe for them.  I was the same way - Yili was the only thing in the world for me.  After a number of years, I realized that *"All are One"* and I felt safe training in other arts with other people...

Some folks are afraid of challenging their boundaries.  Some folks want to live in a self-defined fantasy world of mystic martial arts masters and secret teachings.  Fine...

I've got a life to lead and training to do.  I don't have time for limits or boundaries, even in Yili...


----------



## chufeng (May 6, 2004)

KembudoKai's suggestions aren't necessarily wrong...

It's just that you really don't want to start out by striking a tree...
Many of the adjunct training methods he describes might actually be a better way to start (water filled milk jugs, for instance).


----------



## Chizikunbo (Jun 19, 2004)

FlyingChopSticks said:
			
		

> Hi fellow karatekas ,
> Could you give me some advise on this matter? Should I build my own Makiwara or just buy a sandbag off the self for my training?
> 
> Your Advice is much appreciated
> ...


I would just buy one they would be much better than anyting you could make at home, Shureido makes excelent Makiwara, so does Peter Carbone (http://www.weaponsconnection.com) at the bottom of the page


----------

