# What a black belt really is



## PhotonGuy (Dec 18, 2013)

This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is. The way I see it, the rank of black belt is not so much the physical belt but rather, it means you've met your instructor's standards in obtaining a certain level of proficiency in the martial art being taught. Now, just because you've got a physical black belt doesn't mean you've met anybody's standards and anybody can go buy one at a store usually for under $10. With all due respect, some people such as ballen0351 didn't seem to understand that, at least not at first, in some of the other threads, saying that they could mail me a physical black belt if rank was all I cared about. Like I said, the rank of black belt is not the physical black belt rather its the physical black belt that represents the rank. Some people claim to have not worn their black belt all that much. This one person said he wore his black belt only once. Some people might not wear their black belt at all, they might hang it up or throw it in the closet but like I said, it is not the physical black belt that matters, what does matter is meeting the instructor's standards for making the rank. To meet an instructor's standards for the rank of black belt, an instructor that you have put your faith into and put forth the time and effort to train under, that is what a black belt really is.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 18, 2013)

what if your art doesnt have belts?


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## K-man (Dec 18, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is.





> Those of us who grew up during the 1980s remember and love the original Karate Kid film.
> 
> ... I believe there are valuable pedagogical insights to be learned from The Karate Kid. Specifically, Mr. Miyagi&#8217;s teaching exemplifies one of the most effective models of student motivation.
> 
> ...


Perhaps the belt is just that, public recognition. When you don't have a black belt it is something to aspire to. When you do achieve it you realise it is just the first step of a long journey. Some styles have bars on their belts to designate dan levels, we just have a black belt from that first step on. A smack on the mouth hurts no matter what colour the cloth around your waist!
:asian:


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 18, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> what if your art doesnt have belts?



Than you wouldn't be using the belt system as a measurement of proficiency. There are styles that don't have ranks and if you don't care about rank than you would probably be satisfied with training in such a style although if you ask me a style should be chosen for its content and because it works for you, not because it has or doesn't have a ranking system. I've trained in styles that have ranking systems and I've trained in styles that don't have ranking systems. If you do train in a style that has a ranking system, however, I don't see why it would be wrong to want to get to a high rank and to work on it.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 18, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you do train in a style that has a ranking system, however, I don't see why it would be wrong to want to get to a high rank and to work on it.



I'd say that if the rank is your goal, then there is a problem. 
My goal is to develop my physical abilities and intellectual understanding of my art as far as I can. If that means I get a new belt with some snazzy embroidery on it, then fine. But I don't test to get a belt or a certificate, or whatever.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 18, 2013)

K-man said:


> Perhaps the belt is just that, public recognition. When you don't have a black belt it is something to aspire to. When you do achieve it you realise it is just the first step of a long journey. Some styles have bars on their belts to designate dan levels, we just have a black belt from that first step on. A smack on the mouth hurts no matter what colour the cloth around your waist!
> :asian:



Yes I was thinking about The Karate Kid. Later on in the movie Daniel does get a black belt so that he can compete in the tournament. I actually once had the commentary on while watching the movie and during the scene where Daniel gets a black belt they talk about how this one sensei, if you ask him for a black belt he will just give it to you. In my opinion, if your style does use a ranking system, belts should not just be handed out. Getting a black belt should mean that you've met certain good standards set forth by a sensei. Its a measurement system used by certain instructors and there is nothing wrong with wanting to advance in the system and work hard. After all, school also uses a system of measurement with grades where you get an A, B, C, D, or F in tests and in classes. Why strive for the A? Because it means you've met a certain set of standards where you've performed well enough. Same thing with the black belt.

I must say, you are right about the black belt being the first step in a long journey. That's certainly how it is in my experience. Once you make black belt, its time to really turn it up with the training and to really push yourself hard.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 18, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say that if the rank is your goal, then there is a problem.
> My goal is to develop my physical abilities and intellectual understanding of my art as far as I can. If that means I get a new belt with some snazzy embroidery on it, then fine. But I don't test to get a belt or a certificate, or whatever.



If you are training under an instructor that uses a ranking system, if he is a good instructor than advancing in rank would be based on developing physical abilities and intellectual understanding of the art. So by pursuing those things you are striving to reach higher ranks.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 18, 2013)

Is there a difference in skill between a guy that wakes up a brown belt goes to the dojo takes a test and walks out a black belt?  No he's the same guy with same skills.  All a black belt says is you have got the basics of your style down.  We were talking about this tonight in class tonight.  It takes an adult 3 to 5 years to go from day one to BB. It takes 3 to 4 years to go from 1st deg BB to 2nd deg BB.  So which promotion means more?  Then from 2nd to 3rd is another 3 to 4 years.  3rd to 4th is like 4 to 5 years   

So in the big picture the black belt is a very small step in a very long journey.


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## lklawson (Dec 19, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> what if your art doesnt have belts?


Almost all martial arts have some sort of ranking system.


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## lklawson (Dec 19, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say that if the rank is your goal, then there is a problem.
> My goal is to develop my physical abilities and intellectual understanding of my art as far as I can.


You are misunderstanding what he's asking.  The OP (in the OP) uses the terms "black belt" and "physical black belt" several times, eschewing the "physical black belt" (the cloth obi) and specifically promoting the "black belt" as a recognition of a given skill level.  The goal and yours are the same, just that his "black belt" is a mile marker along the road.



> If that means I get a new belt with some snazzy embroidery on it, then fine. But I don't test to get a belt or a certificate, or whatever.


Nope. You don't test to get a certificate or belt, but rather to provide evidence of your skill level, recognition of that skill, and the beat cop to wave you on to the next mile of your training.  Same-same.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 19, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Is there a difference in skill between a guy that wakes up a brown belt goes to the dojo takes a test and walks out a black belt?  No he's the same guy with same skills.


Yes, there is a difference.  The difference is that someone has officially "recognized" the skill level.  Other than that, no.



> All a black belt says is you have got the basics of your style down.


Not necessarily.  What a black belt (or whatever rank/certificate) "says" is what the instructor or sanctioning body say that it "says."  For some martial arts, it recognizes a minimum level of expertise; the practitioner is considered an "expert."  For others, yes, it recognizes that you have the "basics."  Every martial arts organization, governing body, or independent instructor gets to determine what a "black belt" means within the context of their system.  Because it's their system, the standards and meaning of a "black belt" (what it "says") of any other system are completely irrelevant.  

In summation, a "black belt" "says" whatever the people in charge of your martial art says that a black belt says.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 19, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is. The way I see it, the rank of black belt is not so much the physical belt but rather, it means you've met your instructor's standards in obtaining a certain level of proficiency in the martial art being taught. Now, just because you've got a physical black belt doesn't mean you've met anybody's standards and anybody can go buy one at a store usually for under $10. With all due respect, some people such as ballen0351 didn't seem to understand that, at least not at first, in some of the other threads, saying that they could mail me a physical black belt if rank was all I cared about. Like I said, the rank of black belt is not the physical black belt rather its the physical black belt that represents the rank. Some people claim to have not worn their black belt all that much. This one person said he wore his black belt only once. Some people might not wear their black belt at all, they might hang it up or throw it in the closet but like I said, it is not the physical black belt that matters, what does matter is meeting the instructor's standards for making the rank. To meet an instructor's standards for the rank of black belt, an instructor that you have put your faith into and put forth the time and effort to train under, that is what a black belt really is.


A Black belt, Green Gelt, Red Gloves, Silver Pin, and any other rank or recognition means whatever the people in charge of your specific martial art says that it means.  No one else' opinions matter.  They're irrelevant.  Unless you and I are studying the same martial art through the same organizing body then my opinion of what your ranks should or should not mean are irrelevant.

A black belt means whatever the people in charge of your art says that it means.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is. The way I see it, the rank of black belt is not so much the physical belt but rather, it means you've met your instructor's standards in obtaining a certain level of proficiency in the martial art being taught. Now, just because you've got a physical black belt doesn't mean you've met anybody's standards and anybody can go buy one at a store usually for under $10. With all due respect, some people such as ballen0351 didn't seem to understand that, at least not at first, in some of the other threads, saying that they could mail me a physical black belt if rank was all I cared about. Like I said, the rank of black belt is not the physical black belt rather its the physical black belt that represents the rank. Some people claim to have not worn their black belt all that much. This one person said he wore his black belt only once. Some people might not wear their black belt at all, they might hang it up or throw it in the closet but like I said, it is not the physical black belt that matters, what does matter is meeting the instructor's standards for making the rank. To meet an instructor's standards for the rank of black belt, an instructor that you have put your faith into and put forth the time and effort to train under, that is what a black belt really is.



That person who made the comment about wearing their belt once, was most likely me.  Make no mistake about it...I earned that belt, right alongside of the 3 others who tested with me.  That Arnis test was not an easy task.  Some of us bled, but all of us were exhausted, banged up and bruised and sore as hell for many days after.  

IMHO, I think that some people put way too much faith in the belt itself.  What I mean is, back in the day, you never heard of someone buying a BB.  They eared it with blood, sweat and tears.  Every class was a test.  Belts were really earned, rather than handed out like we see in some schools today.  God forbid you don't give little Joey a BB, he might cry to his parents, who in turn will get pissed off and pull their kid out of the school.  

Does the BB mean that you've mastered everything?  No, of course not.  IMO, it means that you've reached a certain level, that you've reached certain standards.  Does it mean that the journey is over?  No, not at all.  When you really think about it, once you reach that level, is it really necessary to learn a new technique or kata?  No, and quite frankly, why do you need to learn more techs and kata?  Sure, there are black belt level things in some arts, but in reality, the goal now is to really start looking at what you already know, and start breaking it down, getting deeper into it, and performing the material at a higher level.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 19, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is. The way I see it, the rank of black belt is not so much the physical belt but rather, it means you've met your instructor's standards in obtaining a certain level of proficiency in the martial art being taught. Now, just because you've got a physical black belt doesn't mean you've met anybody's standards and anybody can go buy one at a store usually for under $10. With all due respect, some people such as ballen0351 didn't seem to understand that, at least not at first, in some of the other threads, saying that they could mail me a physical black belt if rank was all I cared about. Like I said, the rank of black belt is not the physical black belt rather its the physical black belt that represents the rank. Some people claim to have not worn their black belt all that much. This one person said he wore his black belt only once. Some people might not wear their black belt at all, they might hang it up or throw it in the closet but like I said, it is not the physical black belt that matters, what does matter is meeting the instructor's standards for making the rank. To meet an instructor's standards for the rank of black belt, an instructor that you have put your faith into and put forth the time and effort to train under, that is what a black belt really is.



I think you may have missed the reason for why some folks were offering to "mail you a black belt" or whatever.  They were making the same exact point that you are making here.  This was in the context of you complaining that you had waited 8 extra years to test for black belt because you thought your instructor had to invite you to take the test rather than you volunteering for it.  The point they were making is that if you really were ready for the black belt test at age 20, per your original plan, then you already had achieved the important part of your goal - reaching a certain standard of proficiency.

Of course, as Kirk points out, what you were really looking for with the black belt was not just reaching that level of proficiency, but being publically recognized for reaching achieving that skill.  This is natural.  As much as we may intellectually know that the recognition is far less important than the achievement, it's still really nice to have our hard work recognized.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 19, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Nope. You don't test to get a certificate or belt, but rather to provide evidence of your skill level, recognition of that skill, and the beat cop to wave you on to the next mile of your training.  Same-same.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Actually, I test because my instructor tells me to. Evidence of my own skill, and my ability to pass it on, comes from people I've taught.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 19, 2013)

It seems to me that you have an unhealthy obsession with being a black belt.  You have started multiple threads about it.  Your still upset over not testing 18 years ago.  Made the comment it destroyed your life then quickly backed away when people called you out on it.  That's what I was getting at when I said I'd mail you one.  That seems to be all you care about.  I study karate for me not for a belt.  I don't care about belt color.  I wear different color belts all the time.  For St Patty's day I'll wear my old green belt for new years I alyway put back on my white belt first day of fall this year I was rocking the orange belt at the dojo.   Like I said there is no difference between a brown belt and a black belt.  Stop worrying so much about belt color and go train.  If all you worry about is getting a black belt and you think your worlds going to magically change well your in for a sad surprise.  Your walking out the dojo the same man that walked in only now your belts stiffer and won't stay tied for a few weeks.


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## MJS (Dec 19, 2013)

To the OP:  There are many posts in this thread that offer some sage advice.  IMHO, I think that you really should sit down, and really read what the writers of these posts are saying.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think you may have missed the reason for why some folks were offering to "mail you a black belt" or whatever.  They were making the same exact point that you are making here.  This was in the context of you complaining that you had waited 8 extra years to test for black belt because you thought your instructor had to invite you to take the test rather than you volunteering for it.  The point they were making is that if you really were ready for the black belt test at age 20, per your original plan, then you already had achieved the important part of your goal - reaching a certain standard of proficiency.
> 
> Of course, as Kirk points out, what you were really looking for with the black belt was not just reaching that level of proficiency, but being publically recognized for reaching achieving that skill.  This is natural.  As much as we may intellectually know that the recognition is far less important than the achievement, it's still really nice to have our hard work recognized.



Right. Well by testing for the black belt that way I know for sure that I've reached my sensei's standards for that level of proficiency. Even if I were to test and fail, at least then not only would I know for sure that I didn't meet my sensei's standards for that level but more importantly I would know why I didn't meet that level and what I need to work on. At my dojo, when you fail a belt test they tell you why. That way I would need to know what I have to fix and where I need work, so that I can hopefully pass the next time around. All the hard work in the world will do you no good if its not being done properly. You will only get better at doing things the wrong way.

As far as a black belt being a form of public recognition, I don't see it that way. A black belt is not something you flaunt and you mostly only wear it in the dojo. And even in the dojo, MJS pointed out that this one black belt that he got he only wore it once. So when you get a black belt you shouldn't have to flaunt it or advertise to the world that you're a black belt, rather, its a form of self recognition and self confidence. Achieving something such as a black belt makes you feel good about yourself and boosts your self esteem. You know you can do something. And that will help you in all areas of life, not just in the martial arts. So that's where the importance of getting a black belt comes in.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 20, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> It seems to me that you have an unhealthy obsession with being a black belt.  You have started multiple threads about it.  Your still upset over not testing 18 years ago.  Made the comment it destroyed your life then quickly backed away when people called you out on it.  That's what I was getting at when I said I'd mail you one.  That seems to be all you care about.  I study karate for me not for a belt.  I don't care about belt color.  I wear different color belts all the time.  For St Patty's day I'll wear my old green belt for new years I alyway put back on my white belt first day of fall this year I was rocking the orange belt at the dojo.   Like I said there is no difference between a brown belt and a black belt.  Stop worrying so much about belt color and go train.  If all you worry about is getting a black belt and you think your worlds going to magically change well your in for a sad surprise.  Your walking out the dojo the same man that walked in only now your belts stiffer and won't stay tied for a few weeks.



Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it. And I want to make this clear, this is not just something that upset me 18 years ago. As I stated many times before, I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. I finally did get a black belt when I was 27, almost 28. So, this is something that didn't just upset me 18 years ago, its something that upset me for eight years from when I was 20 up until I finally did make black belt when I was almost 28. One of the main points Im trying to make is that if a student has a goal, they should talk to their sensei about it, whether its getting a black belt, or any other belt for that matter.


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## Instructor (Dec 20, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it. And I want to make this clear, this is not just something that upset me 18 years ago. As I stated many times before, I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. I finally did get a black belt when I was 27, almost 28. So, this is something that didn't just upset me 18 years ago, its something that upset me for eight years from when I was 20 up until I finally did make black belt when I was almost 28. One of the main points Im trying to make is that if a student has a goal, they should talk to their sensei about it, whether its getting a black belt, or any other belt for that matter.



Proficiency in martial arts may be indicated by belt color.  Proficiency in life is indicated by a calm mind and making wise choices and living with the repercussions of those choices.  While I will always cherish my belts because they represent a lot of good memories learning with my friends; it's gaining wisdom and proficiency in life that has really brought me peace and happiness.  One of the great lessons that martial arts has to teach us is to accept change and to hold your balance.  If something is pulling you off balance, just let go.

It is best to live in the moment, no future, no past.  All you really have is right now.


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## K-man (Dec 20, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> As far as a black belt being a form of public recognition, I don't see it that way. A black belt is not something you flaunt and you mostly only wear it in the dojo. And even in the dojo, MJS pointed out that this one black belt that he got he only wore it once. So when you get a black belt you shouldn't have to flaunt it or advertise to the world that you're a black belt, rather, its a form of self recognition and self confidence. Achieving something such as a black belt makes you feel good about yourself and boosts your self esteem. You know you can do something. And that will help you in all areas of life, not just in the martial arts. So that's where the importance of getting a black belt comes in.


Of course you only wear your belt in the dojo, but the dojo might be some other place, some other style or perhaps a seminar. When you train some other place your belt gives you credibility as a martial artist for starters. It is an indication that you have put in a lot of time and effort to get to a level of profiiancy. Of course that all turns to dust if your ability doesn't live up to the expectation 

To me, if you need a black belt to feel good about yourself and boost your self esteem, I would really be asking yourself some serious questions. Maybe that is why you have raised these issues in the first place.
:asian:


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 20, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it.



MartialTalk.com.  Like therapy, but cheaper. 



			
				PhotonGuy said:
			
		

> Right. Well by testing for the black belt that way I know for sure that I've reached my sensei's standards for that level of proficiency. Even if I were to test and fail, at least then not only would I know for sure that I didn't meet my sensei's standards for that level but more importantly I would know why I didn't meet that level and what I need to work on. At my dojo, when you fail a belt test they tell you why. That way I would need to know what I have to fix and where I need work, so that I can hopefully pass the next time around. All the hard work in the world will do you no good if its not being done properly. You will only get better at doing things the wrong way.



I would hope your instructor was giving you feedback on how you were doing all along, and not just when you got around to taking your test.


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## Prostar (Dec 20, 2013)

So consider the distinction and figure which side of it you occupy.

I have a black belt.
I am a black belt.

In the comfort of your own room, with no one else to hear, which one do you see?


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## Balrog (Dec 21, 2013)

Achieving Black Belt rank is achieving a goal, much like graduating from high school.  You're learned the basics, now it's time to learn the art.

Becoming a Black Belt, however, is an ontological change.  It's where one has accepted martial arts training and life skills as an integral part of their own life, and that takes time.  I've used the analogy before of baking a cake.  If the recipe says 2 hours at 250, you can't change it to 1 hour at 500.


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## DennisBreene (Dec 21, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it. And I want to make this clear, this is not just something that upset me 18 years ago. As I stated many times before, I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. I finally did get a black belt when I was 27, almost 28. So, this is something that didn't just upset me 18 years ago, its something that upset me for eight years from when I was 20 up until I finally did make black belt when I was almost 28. One of the main points Im trying to make is that if a student has a goal, they should talk to their sensei about it, whether its getting a black belt, or any other belt for that matter.



Talking about the pain and disappointment can be helpful.  But I seems to me that until you find a way to let go of some of that pain, you will not see yourself as you should.  You achieved the rank and met the standards. Right now, and forevermore, you are a black belt.  Even when you get old and decrepit and can no longer perform the skills you perform as a young man, you will still be a black belt.  That stands independent of the path you took to achieve the rank.  If you can turn towards the future and what you wish to achieve from now on, you will be on a healthier path.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> This has been discussed somewhat in other threads but I thought it would be appropriate to start a thread of its own on this, what a black belt really is. The way I see it, the rank of black belt is not so much the physical belt but rather, it means you've met your instructor's standards in obtaining a certain level of proficiency in the martial art being taught. Now, just because you've got a physical black belt doesn't mean you've met anybody's standards and anybody can go buy one at a store usually for under $10. With all due respect, some people such as ballen0351 didn't seem to understand that, at least not at first, in some of the other threads, saying that they could mail me a physical black belt if rank was all I cared about. Like I said, the rank of black belt is not the physical black belt rather its the physical black belt that represents the rank. Some people claim to have not worn their black belt all that much. This one person said he wore his black belt only once. Some people might not wear their black belt at all, they might hang it up or throw it in the closet but like I said, it is not the physical black belt that matters, what does matter is meeting the instructor's standards for making the rank. To meet an instructor's standards for the rank of black belt, an instructor that you have put your faith into and put forth the time and effort to train under, that is what a black belt really is.



I do Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and what a black belt means to me is I went to a store and bought it to hold up my pants....no belt ranks in TCMA


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## Hyoho (Dec 22, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, I test because my instructor tells me to. Evidence of my own skill, and my ability to pass it on, comes from people I've taught.



I had taken 27 Dan grades in various arts by the time I was 42 mostly at home in Japan. Doing more classical arts and getting just as much satisfaction I gave up with gradings. One association president asked me why I would not grade anymore and said, even if I didn't want to grade my students would be please to see their sensei get a higher rank


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## DennisBreene (Dec 22, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> I had taken 27 Dan grades in various arts by the time I was 42 mostly at home in Japan. Doing more classical arts and getting just as much satisfaction I gave up with gradings. One association president asked me why I would not grade anymore and said, even if I didn't want to grade my students would be please to see their sensei get a higher rank



Did that persuade you to continue testing for higher rank?


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## ks - learning to fly (Dec 22, 2013)

IMO

The belt is a bi-product of the work

I AM a Black Belt.


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## Hyoho (Dec 22, 2013)

DennisBreene 1616166 said:
			
		

> Did that persuade you to continue testing for higher rank?


No, it didn't. My path and most of all ideals were towards learning classical arts that were based on a lifetimes study with no grades. The original traditional method. On top of that they offered a philosophical aspect

There also was the aspect of not just being good enough to grade but also the "having to know the right people" thing that goes along with high rank. It all gets a bit too personal and political.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 24, 2013)

MJS said:


> IMHO, I think that some people put way too much faith in the belt itself.  What I mean is, back in the day, you never heard of someone buying a BB.  They eared it with blood, sweat and tears.  Every class was a test.  Belts were really earned, rather than handed out like we see in some schools today.  God forbid you don't give little Joey a BB, he might cry to his parents, who in turn will get pissed off and pull their kid out of the school.
> 
> Does the BB mean that you've mastered everything?  No, of course not.  IMO, it means that you've reached a certain level, that you've reached certain standards.  Does it mean that the journey is over?  No, not at all.  When you really think about it, once you reach that level, is it really necessary to learn a new technique or kata?  No, and quite frankly, why do you need to learn more techs and kata?  Sure, there are black belt level things in some arts, but in reality, the goal now is to really start looking at what you already know, and start breaking it down, getting deeper into it, and performing the material at a higher level.



A dojo that hands little Joey a black belt so his parent's won't pull him out of the school, I would not want to get a black belt at a place with such junk standards. I would want to get a black belt at a dojo that has good high standards but the important thing is for me as a student to know what I must do to meet those good high standards. That's where talking to the sensei comes in. The same way a student in academic class such as math or english who wants to get an A in the class should talk to their teacher about what they need to do to get an A, and a good and sensible student will talk to their teacher, a student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get a black belt if that's what they want.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 25, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Right. Well by testing for the black belt that way I know for sure that I've reached my sensei's standards for that level of proficiency. Even if I were to test and fail, at least then not only would I know for sure that I didn't meet my sensei's standards for that level but more importantly I would know why I didn't meet that level and what I need to work on. At my dojo, when you fail a belt test they tell you why. That way I would need to know what I have to fix and where I need work, so that I can hopefully pass the next time around. All the hard work in the world will do you no good if its not being done properly. You will only get better at doing things the wrong way.



Testing for a black belt there (and passing) would only mean that you reached that instructors standards in that art, in that school. It really means nothing else. you might train for years and years in Shito Ryu, and get a Shodan there... but if you walk into, say, my school, you're a white belt. Same if you walk into a Judo school. Or a Wing Chun one. Or Iaido. Or another form of karate. So what does you black belt really mean, then? Outside of your school, nothing. 



PhotonGuy said:


> As far as a black belt being a form of public recognition, I don't see it that way. A black belt is not something you flaunt and you mostly only wear it in the dojo. And even in the dojo, MJS pointed out that this one black belt that he got he only wore it once. So when you get a black belt you shouldn't have to flaunt it or advertise to the world that you're a black belt, rather, its a form of self recognition and self confidence. Achieving something such as a black belt makes you feel good about yourself and boosts your self esteem. You know you can do something. And that will help you in all areas of life, not just in the martial arts. So that's where the importance of getting a black belt comes in.



Eh, I had a student who, when he passed his very first grading (9th Kyu), thanked me profusely. Simply passing a single grading in a martial art was a huge achievement for him. I recently promoted my first black belt. He'd been training so long, the belt itself didn't really mean anything to him. The recognition for his efforts did, of course, but that's it. And, when it comes down to it, a black belt is nothing. I mean, Shodan is just the first step (pretty literally, really)... how do you rate Nidan? Sandan? Yondan? Godan? Rokudan?

Reaching an achievement is great. But it can't be a fairly randomly chosen one. Without knowing what a black belt (in whatever art/school) actually means, it's actually rather pointless. And simply saying that it means that you've reached the standards of that instructor doesn't really mean anything either... what are their standards? Are they high? Low? Middle ground?



PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I do have an unhealthy obsession and the way I deal with it is by talking about it. Its unhealthy to keep stuff bottled in and these message boards serve the purpose of enabling me to talk about it. And I want to make this clear, this is not just something that upset me 18 years ago. As I stated many times before, I wanted to get a black belt before I turned 20. I finally did get a black belt when I was 27, almost 28. So, this is something that didn't just upset me 18 years ago, its something that upset me for eight years from when I was 20 up until I finally did make black belt when I was almost 28. One of the main points Im trying to make is that if a student has a goal, they should talk to their sensei about it, whether its getting a black belt, or any other belt for that matter.



Honestly? The best advice I can offer is simple: Get over it.


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## TKDTony2179 (Dec 26, 2013)

Black belt is the highest requirements under an instructor.  It also should represent a certain level of skill. When I first started training I wanted one. Paying for it without training didn't register in my brain because the belt represented skill. You should be able to show a certain level of skill in your art to pass under your instructor. Now that said it should only be the skill set under your art. Under laido, judo, or anything I haven't done will be a new skill set that needs to be learn. As long as you are TKD/TSD my instructor will honor your training under that art. But if you are something else then white belt it is.

Now as far as the belt meaning anything outside any school then no it don't.  For the most part most people will say good job for you or they think you are invincible.  But rank and belt don't mean nothing out a school. Just your skill if it ever needs to be use.


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## MJS (Dec 26, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> A dojo that hands little Joey a black belt so his parent's won't pull him out of the school, I would not want to get a black belt at a place with such junk standards. I would want to get a black belt at a dojo that has good high standards but the important thing is for me as a student to know what I must do to meet those good high standards. That's where talking to the sensei comes in. The same way a student in academic class such as math or english who wants to get an A in the class should talk to their teacher about what they need to do to get an A, and a good and sensible student will talk to their teacher, a student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get a black belt if that's what they want.



I was simply pointing out how many schools are, today.  As for the rest of your post...you seem to have a pattern, as you post the same thing all the time.  ie: high standads, talking to the teacher, etc.  Why do you think that the teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do?


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 26, 2013)

MJS said:


> I was simply pointing out how many schools are, today.  As for the rest of your post...you seem to have a pattern, as you post the same thing all the time.  ie: high standads, talking to the teacher, etc.  Why do you think that the teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do?



A good teacher wouldn't leave their student in the dark about what they need to do, and that's why a student shouldn't be afraid to talk to their teacher and if the student has a goal or needs help with something, they should talk to their teacher about it. And if I keep posting the same thing its because with some people it just doesn't register.


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 26, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> A dojo that hands little Joey a black belt so his parent's won't pull him out of the school, I would not want to get a black belt at a place with such junk standards. I would want to get a black belt at a dojo that has good high standards but the important thing is for me as a student to know what I must do to meet those good high standards. That's where talking to the sensei comes in. The same way a student in academic class such as math or english who wants to get an A in the class should talk to their teacher about what they need to do to get an A, and a good and sensible student will talk to their teacher, a student in the martial arts should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get a black belt if that's what they want.



While it's fine to talk to a teacher about class expectations and goals/learning outcomes and objectives for a class, that kind of thing should be covered by the teacher well in advance. In school, it's done on the first day of a new term. The teacher hands out the syllabus and covers all of that stuff. My students don't have to ask me for that information. It benefits both the students and teacher for them to have that information.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## Chris Parker (Dec 27, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> A good teacher wouldn't leave their student in the dark about what they need to do, and that's why a student shouldn't be afraid to talk to their teacher and if the student has a goal or needs help with something, they should talk to their teacher about it. And if I keep posting the same thing its because with some people it just doesn't register.



See, that's the thing. It's not that it's not registering, it's that that's your personal take on things, and it's just not necessarily so. Depending on the art, and the teacher, as well as the aims of the art and the teacher, it might actually be worse to give specific expectations in such a way. Note that I absolutely did not say "the aims of the student", because, bluntly, they're irrelevant. Especially as you near the higher ranks. As a teacher, when all's said and done, I don't give a damn what the student expects. They're there to learn what I have to offer, and I know the way I want to instil those lessons. I know why this student has to wait, and why this one needs to work on something in particular, even if they're not interested in it, or think they already know it. 

Now, don't get me wrong. I want them to progress, I want them to get the skills... but it has to happen properly. In a real way, the teacher really does know a lot more than the student... especially about what the student's needs are. As a result, I set the timeline, not the student.

Have you heard the koan about the eager student?

A prospective student went to a master, and asked "Master, how long will it take me to attain mastery?" The master looked him up and down, and replied "10 years". 

"But Master, that's so long.... what if I train every day?" "20 years" the master replied. 

"But Master, I would train all day, every day... I would only stop for meals and to sleep... how long then?" "30 years" came the reply. 

"I don't understand... if I train so hard, why does it take so much longer?"

"Ah", the master said, "a student who is so concerned with the finish has no presence... and misses every lesson that lies before them. Such a student never learns, instead seeking to skip straight to knowing".

"I understand" said the student, and trained with no thought of anything other than the lesson right in front of him.... and went on to become a great master himself.



In other words, life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you might miss it.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 27, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Have you heard the koan about the eager student?
> 
> A prospective student went to a master, and asked "Master, how long will it take me to attain mastery?" The master looked him up and down, and replied "10 years".
> 
> ...



Yes but how long did it take him.


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## K-man (Dec 27, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Yes but how long did it take him.


It's obviously a mathematical progression ... so 40 years. QED


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 27, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> See, that's the thing. It's not that it's not registering, it's that that's your personal take on things, and it's just not necessarily so. Depending on the art, and the teacher, as well as the aims of the art and the teacher, it might actually be worse to give specific expectations in such a way. Note that I absolutely did not say "the aims of the student", because, bluntly, they're irrelevant. Especially as you near the higher ranks. As a teacher, when all's said and done, I don't give a damn what the student expects. They're there to learn what I have to offer, and I know the way I want to instil those lessons. I know why this student has to wait, and why this one needs to work on something in particular, even if they're not interested in it, or think they already know it.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong. I want them to progress, I want them to get the skills... but it has to happen properly. In a real way, the teacher really does know a lot more than the student... especially about what the student's needs are. As a result, I set the timeline, not the student.


Yes the teacher does know a lot more than the student. And that's why the student should talk to the teacher and ask the teacher stuff that the student doesn't understand. The same way that in academic school, that after class, some of the students sometimes take a few extra minutes to ask their teacher stuff about the material that they don't understand. Those students are usually the ones that do the best in class.



Chris Parker said:


> Have you heard the koan about the eager student?
> 
> A prospective student went to a master, and asked "Master, how long will it take me to attain mastery?" The master looked him up and down, and replied "10 years".
> 
> ...


Yes I've heard that story and while it might have some merit, I don't entirely agree with it. By that logic, if the student did absolutely nothing than he would attain mastery instantaneously.



Chris Parker said:


> In other words, life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you might miss it.


Right Ferris Bueller. I do think its important to stop and look around from time to time but also since life moves fast, its important to get done what you need to get done when you need to get it done, and that sometimes requires that you hustle.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 27, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> While it's fine to talk to a teacher about class expectations and goals/learning outcomes and objectives for a class, that kind of thing should be covered by the teacher well in advance. In school, it's done on the first day of a new term. The teacher hands out the syllabus and covers all of that stuff. My students don't have to ask me for that information. It benefits both the students and teacher for them to have that information.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



    Yes but still, a good student might sometimes ask the teacher certain stuff after class if they don't understand something about the material. Those are the students that usually get As.


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## chodancandidate (Dec 27, 2013)

There are times in our advanced class (red belts and black belts only) when my instructor will yell at someone being lazy, saying "Do you want to be a black belt? Train like a black belt, not like a while belt!"  This says to me that there is a certain proficiency that is required in order to be a black belt, and that has to be maintained.  My instructor says that black belts are held to a higher standard than color belts, that we have to have good technique because if we don't, the color belts won't either.  They follow our example.

In my opinion, being a black belt is a reflection of practice and time.  I started training when I was 19 years old, and I've always done the best that I could, training as if I was a black belt, because being a black belt is also a state of mind.  You don't have to be a black belt to train like one, and given time and practice, you will get there.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 27, 2013)

chodancandidate said:


> There are times in our advanced class (red belts and black belts only) when my instructor will yell at someone being lazy, saying "Do you want to be a black belt? Train like a black belt, not like a while belt!"  This says to me that there is a certain proficiency that is required in order to be a black belt, and that has to be maintained.  My instructor says that black belts are held to a higher standard than color belts, that we have to have good technique because if we don't, the color belts won't either.  They follow our example.


    Good for your sensei. A good sensei should expect more out of their black belts and the higher belts. If anything, though, once you make black belt you expect more out of yourself. At least that's how it is with me.



chodancandidate said:


> In my opinion, being a black belt is a reflection of practice and time. I started training when I was 19 years old, and I've always done the best that I could, training as if I was a black belt, because being a black belt is also a state of mind. You don't have to be a black belt to train like one, and given time and practice, you will get there.


Training to be a black belt is just part of it. You also have to know your sensei's conditions for making black belt. And to know your sensei's conditions you might have to talk to your sensei. You've got a mouth, you've got to use it.


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## Balrog (Dec 27, 2013)

I was reminded today of the old saying:  a Black Belt is simply a White Belt who never gave up.

Lot of truth in it.


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## TKDTony2179 (Dec 29, 2013)

I was telling a friend at work that there are trillions of black belts out there. Some are good and some are bad. Some are horrible.  But it is in the heart in mins that really makes you a black belt. Then I ran across this picture which should put it into words better.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2013)

From your 1st degree black belt to your 4th degree black belt, you just devote your time for "yourself". From the 5th degree black belt and up, you start to devote your time for your "art". Your personal combat ability will no longer be your main priority, Your main goal is to promote your art and help others.


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## Hyoho (Dec 29, 2013)

Kung From your 1st degree black belt to your 4th degree black belt said:
			
		

> Belt colour has nothing to do with it. All high school kids who practice in Japan have Sandan.
> 
> 
> Its about age Your expectancy and purpose alters with age. is. 20/30, 40 to 50 etc.
> ...


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## Chris Parker (Dec 29, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes the teacher does know a lot more than the student. And that's why the student should talk to the teacher and ask the teacher stuff that the student doesn't understand. The same way that in academic school, that after class, some of the students sometimes take a few extra minutes to ask their teacher stuff about the material that they don't understand. Those students are usually the ones that do the best in class.



Look, I encourage questions. I like it when students are hungry for information and insight. But it gets to a point where it becomes a substitution for actually working on anything. The old adage of "shut up and train" holds a lot of merit.

Additionally, you missed the point. I said that, depending on the art, the instructor, and their aims, there can be some very valid reasons to not necessarily give the students everything... and that your expectation of what you think it should be like is rather, well, irrelevant. You're essentially saying that you know better than the instructor what the best way for them to teach their art is... even though you're agreeing that the instructor does have more knowledge about it than you (as a student at the time) do. Sorry, no.



PhotonGuy said:


> Yes I've heard that story and while it might have some merit, I don't entirely agree with it. By that logic, if the student did absolutely nothing than he would attain mastery instantaneously.



Again, you missed the point of the story. If the student did nothing, he would achieve nothing. But if he only focused on a far-away image, fantasising about it, he would miss all the essential moments that take him there... as well as being focused on something frankly imaginary (the "black belt", "mastery" are imaginary until they are known... when you are focused on it, you don't know what it is). What you need to do (the student) is to not focus on such fantasy, but instead embrace the moment you're in.



PhotonGuy said:


> Right Ferris Bueller. I do think its important to stop and look around from time to time but also since life moves fast, its important to get done what you need to get done when you need to get it done, and that sometimes requires that you hustle.



Again, focusing on a imagination of the future does you no good. Embrace the moment, let it lead you where it does, and get the most out of each day you can.



PhotonGuy said:


> Yes but still, a good student might sometimes ask the teacher certain stuff after class if they don't understand something about the material. Those are the students that usually get As.



This isn't academics, and it doesn't work the same way. You want to get good at this? It's a lot of solo time spent training at home.

More importantly, I'm noticing a pattern here. You have a tendency to answer with "Yeah, but..." a fair bit... which is an indication that you're simply not listening. It's an automatic negation of whatever anyone else says... and tells me that you're not going to hear any actual new ideas. I'd recommend you step back, and recognize that, when your hopes and imaginings of what you think reality should be doesn't match what is actually there, it might be time to re-assess your viewpoint.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> From your 1st degree black belt to your 4th degree black belt, you just devote your time for "yourself". From the 5th degree black belt and up, you start to devote your time for your "art". Your personal combat ability will no longer be your main priority, Your main goal is to promote your art and help others.



Uh, not necessarily. I train in arts (Japanese) with no Dan rankings... I train in one where 5th Dan is the highest... so, for me, that's not really accurate.


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## seasoned (Dec 29, 2013)

> Author unknown


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 29, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Uh, not necessarily. I train in arts (Japanese) with no Dan rankings... I train in one where 5th Dan is the highest... so, for me, that's not really accurate.


May be I should say "for some systems".

IMO, the higher ranking is usually obtained from 

- book publishing, 
- DVD releasing, 
- competition team training, 
- tournament responding, 
- workshop offering, 
- public demo.
- ... 

and is not from personal combat ability grading. It's how much that you have contributed to your art. So higher rank may not necessary mean higher combat skill and ability.


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## MJS (Dec 29, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> A good teacher wouldn't leave their student in the dark about what they need to do, and that's why a student shouldn't be afraid to talk to their teacher and if the student has a goal or needs help with something, they should talk to their teacher about it. And if I keep posting the same thing its because with some people it just doesn't register.



You still didn't answer my question.  I asked why you think that a teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do??  Of course, I don't ask my teacher every class, what I need to work on.  When we're training our punches, blocks, kicks, etc, and he tells me that I need to punch harder, or kick harder, or perform a kata better, I know that he's looking at specific things, and that for my rank, I know I need to work on those things.  As I've said before...each class is a test, so to speak.  We don't ask when we can test or sign up when we feel we're ready.  No, we wait until we're told, like it should be!  He tests us formally, when HE feels we're ready, not the other way around.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 29, 2013)

Black belt status means different things to different ppl. Lay folks probably are in awe of it more than they should be. It is even further distorted by the fact that little Johnny has one too, and he is eight.

Black belts are a marketing tool and cash cow. While on one hand they represent having mastered a set of curriculum and tests, they also are monetized, in a very expensive way.

Growing as a martial artist does not require a belt chase. I have take lessons from the arts i received bb in and use them to stay fit and manage other parts of my life in a healthy way. White pajamas and colored belts are no longer part of my life. 

So you got your BB at 28, great. Now find another goal in life.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Look, I encourage questions. I like it when students are hungry for information and insight. But it gets to a point where it becomes a substitution for actually working on anything. The old adage of "shut up and train" holds a lot of merit.
> 
> Additionally, you missed the point. I said that, depending on the art, the instructor, and their aims, there can be some very valid reasons to not necessarily give the students everything... and that your expectation of what you think it should be like is rather, well, irrelevant. You're essentially saying that you know better than the instructor what the best way for them to teach their art is... even though you're agreeing that the instructor does have more knowledge about it than you (as a student at the time) do. Sorry, no.


Talking to the sensei and asking questions is not a substitute for hard work. Rather, its to make sure that your hard work is also smart work. Lets say that you're a runner, you run track. Now let's say you aren't running properly, maybe there is something wrong with your stride that makes it slower than if you ran the right way. If you keep practicing your stride the wrong way, all the hard work in the world will just make you better at running the wrong way. If on the other hand if you talk to your coach and ask him if you need to fix anything about your running technique, if he's a good coach he will tell you what your doing wrong and how to fix it. Then, you have to work hard and apply what your coach said so you can become a better runner. That's when you shut up and train. No, talking to the coach is not some magical replacement for hard work, but that way you make sure that your hard work is smart work, and that you're applying it the right way. After all, what good is hard work if its not done right?



Chris Parker said:


> Again, you missed the point of the story. If the student did nothing, he would achieve nothing. But if he only focused on a far-away image, fantasising about it, he would miss all the essential moments that take him there... as well as being focused on something frankly imaginary (the "black belt", "mastery" are imaginary until they are known... when you are focused on it, you don't know what it is). What you need to do (the student) is to not focus on such fantasy, but instead embrace the moment you're in.
> 
> Again, focusing on a imagination of the future does you no good. Embrace the moment, let it lead you where it does, and get the most out of each day you can.


You take things one step at a time. A white belt should not be so focused on getting a black belt, rather they should be concentrating on getting a yellow belt of whatever belt comes after white which usually is yellow in lots of styles. After yellow belt, the student should then be focusing on getting the next belt up, and so forth. As for getting a black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. However, the important thing is that when you do get to that bridge to cross it. A student who is a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, should be focusing on getting their black belt and if necessary should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get it. Of course the student has to do the work, but a good sensei should give the student the necessary information about the work they need to do.



Chris Parker said:


> This isn't academics, and it doesn't work the same way. You want to get good at this? It's a lot of solo time spent training at home.
> 
> More importantly, I'm noticing a pattern here. You have a tendency to answer with "Yeah, but..." a fair bit... which is an indication that you're simply not listening. It's an automatic negation of whatever anyone else says... and tells me that you're not going to hear any actual new ideas. I'd recommend you step back, and recognize that, when your hopes and imaginings of what you think reality should be doesn't match what is actually there, it might be time to re-assess your viewpoint.


Academics also requires lots of solo time training at home called studying. 
An A is an achievement in academics, a black belt is an achievement in the martial arts. Aside from that, I don't see much difference. If you or anyone else sees other differences between the two marks of achievement, I would like to hear your feedback.
If it sounds like Im not listening than perhaps its because I'm not getting the point entirely at first. It might take a bit, especially since communication on message boards has severe limitations. This will take some patience. After all, its been discussed before about how patience is an important virtue in the martial arts. We should all practice it, and Im not excluding myself on this.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 29, 2013)

MJS said:


> You still didn't answer my question.  I asked why you think that a teacher would leave you in the dark as to what you need to do??  Of course, I don't ask my teacher every class, what I need to work on.  When we're training our punches, blocks, kicks, etc, and he tells me that I need to punch harder, or kick harder, or perform a kata better, I know that he's looking at specific things, and that for my rank, I know I need to work on those things.  As I've said before...each class is a test, so to speak.  We don't ask when we can test or sign up when we feel we're ready.  No, we wait until we're told, like it should be!  He tests us formally, when HE feels we're ready, not the other way around.



In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.


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## Hyoho (Dec 29, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be I should say "for some systems".
> 
> IMO, the higher ranking is usually obtained from
> 
> ...



Please add that nearly a lifetime within the association, teaching seven days a week, judgeing. I remember 6th Dan Kendo. Over 3000 grading. You step into the area, bow, drop into sonkyo (Fencing starting postion) and stand. A lot of graders get a yellow flag if they don't stand up correctly that means, "We've seen enough, try again next year"


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## jks9199 (Dec 29, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.



 I don't really want to harp on this, but... 

 Was nobody promoted while you're there?  Did nothing else give you a clue that you needed to do something more in order to test? You seem to be awful intent  on blaming your instructor rather than accepting some of the responsibility.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 30, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Black belt status means different things to different ppl. Lay folks probably are in awe of it more than they should be. It is even further distorted by the fact that little Johnny has one too, and he is eight.
> 
> Black belts are a marketing tool and cash cow. While on one hand they represent having mastered a set of curriculum and tests, they also are monetized, in a very expensive way.
> 
> ...



What you are describing here is what takes place in the dreaded M'cdojo/M'cdojo and the like, not martial arts in general.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> What you are describing here is what takes place in the dreaded M'cdojo/M'cdojo and the like, not martial arts in general.



Not totally mcdojo. BB and colored belts represent the human need for a pecking order. The odd phenomena in martial arts is that children can be placed higher in the continuum than adults, which is wrong (sorry, I your kid is mature and talented and that adult is not mature ;-).) Belts, trophies ,etc. are something that feeds the ego. A school without belts would be great but probably unpopular. However, so long as status and ego are tied to self worth, the current model will remain in play.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 30, 2013)

seasoned said:


>



Lovely, Wes... not actually accurate in the slightest, but lovely.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be I should say "for some systems".



You phrased it pretty definitively... but, even with that qualification, I'd still be rather reticent to say anything specific about what one rank or another signifies across the board... it just doesn't work that way.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the higher ranking is usually obtained from
> 
> - book publishing,
> - DVD releasing,
> ...



Tournaments? Competition? DVD's? Books? Wow, I'm never going to get anywhere in, well, any of my systems... 

Look, it's certainly true that physical combative performance isn't always at the top of the list of criteria for rank, but I'd even say that looking only at combative skill and ability is never at the top. Specific skill and ability within the art being trained, on the other hand, which might be combatively applied or applicable, is going to be there. But thinking of martial arts and ranking as only being about such mundane and low-level criteria simply doesn't take you very far... if that's all there is to martial arts training, and to attaining or being awarded rank, then martial arts training would only really apply for a short time, and the highest ranked people would all be in their 20's.



PhotonGuy said:


> Talking to the sensei and asking questions is not a substitute for hard work. Rather, its to make sure that your hard work is also smart work. Lets say that you're a runner, you run track. Now let's say you aren't running properly, maybe there is something wrong with your stride that makes it slower than if you ran the right way. If you keep practicing your stride the wrong way, all the hard work in the world will just make you better at running the wrong way. If on the other hand if you talk to your coach and ask him if you need to fix anything about your running technique, if he's a good coach he will tell you what your doing wrong and how to fix it. Then, you have to work hard and apply what your coach said so you can become a better runner. That's when you shut up and train. No, talking to the coach is not some magical replacement for hard work, but that way you make sure that your hard work is smart work, and that you're applying it the right way. After all, what good is hard work if its not done right?



If he's a good coach, he'll catch it before you do. You won't need to ask.

Ask for clarification if you don't understand. Ask if you're stuck in your development. Ask if you want guidance. If you're doing something badly, you shouldn't have to ask. But, and this is a big one, what is "doing something badly" can vary wildly based on the student themselves... a beginner who is getting nearly everything "wrong", but has started to at least put the right foot forward this time, is congratulated on what they're doing right, and maybe given one more pointer ("Good, that's it. Just see if you can make sure you catch from above next time"), but a senior (brown or black) who got nearly everything right would be picked up on a subtle aspect of what went wrong, or can be improved ("You really need to make sure you drop into this, you're not getting anywhere near enough power"). But a good instructor should be able to see what each individual student needs without being asked. If not... look for a different teacher. I mean, you don't have to expect them to be a mind-reader, but they should be able to observe and provide proper guidance.



PhotonGuy said:


> You take things one step at a time. A white belt should not be so focused on getting a black belt, rather they should be concentrating on getting a yellow belt of whatever belt comes after white which usually is yellow in lots of styles. After yellow belt, the student should then be focusing on getting the next belt up, and so forth. As for getting a black belt, you cross that bridge when you get to it. However, the important thing is that when you do get to that bridge to cross it. A student who is a high level brown belt, the rank right before black belt, should be focusing on getting their black belt and if necessary should talk to their sensei about what they need to do to get it. Of course the student has to do the work, but a good sensei should give the student the necessary information about the work they need to do.



Sometimes what the student needs is to wait.



PhotonGuy said:


> Academics also requires lots of solo time training at home called studying.



Not exactly the same thing... 



PhotonGuy said:


> An A is an achievement in academics, a black belt is an achievement in the martial arts. Aside from that, I don't see much difference. If you or anyone else sees other differences between the two marks of achievement, I would like to hear your feedback.



Okay, an A is an indication of a single performance of academic knowledge. A black belt is a result of a long-term study and engagement in practice. It is an incremental development, a culmination of many lessons, multiple experiences, and years of work. There can be a single "test" for a black belt, but it's really not about that. It's about everything that went before it... that's really what a black belt is about. The A is all about the test.

From there, it's important to realise just why an academic study is quite different to a physical, over-arching area. Academics are about memorisation and recall, as well as application of formula, martial arts are about development of physical skills. The neuro-physiology is different, the learning methodology is different, the application and testing methodology is different, and so on... 



PhotonGuy said:


> If it sounds like Im not listening than perhaps its because I'm not getting the point entirely at first. It might take a bit, especially since communication on message boards has severe limitations. This will take some patience. After all, its been discussed before about how patience is an important virtue in the martial arts. We should all practice it, and Im not excluding myself on this.



Yeah, it can be a little difficult at times.



PhotonGuy said:


> In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.



Ask for clarification... that's a good plan. Believing in myths... not so good...


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.



You're still not answering the question.  Let me ask again.  Why would someone leave a student in the dark?  I mean really...what possible thing could be gained from doing that?  Stringing the student along, prolonging the BB test, so the teacher keeps getting money? If thats the case, then thats a mcdojo, and I'd run away..fast!!!  

As for this 'myth', well, I'm sorry, but I've been training for over 20 yrs in the arts, and I've never seen a dojo like you describe, other than a mcdojo.  Each and every dojo that I've trained in, the teacher told the student when they were ready, not the other way around.  My teacher is very traditional, very old school, and is Japanese.  I wouldn't dream of asking when I could test, for ANY rank, let alone BB, and I doubt any other student there would either.  It's not done out of fear, its done out of respect!  

Anyways, I'm done for now with this thread, at least until I can get a straigh answer from the question I asked you.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 30, 2013)

MJS said:


> You're still not answering the question.  Let me ask again.  Why would someone leave a student in the dark?  I mean really...what possible thing could be gained from doing that?  Stringing the student along, prolonging the BB test, so the teacher keeps getting money? If thats the case, then thats a mcdojo, and I'd run away..fast!!!
> 
> As for this 'myth', well, I'm sorry, but I've been training for over 20 yrs in the arts, and I've never seen a dojo like you describe, other than a mcdojo.  Each and every dojo that I've trained in, the teacher told the student when they were ready, not the other way around.  My teacher is very traditional, very old school, and is Japanese.  I wouldn't dream of asking when I could test, for ANY rank, let alone BB, and I doubt any other student there would either.  It's not done out of fear, its done out of respect!
> 
> Anyways, I'm done for now with this thread, at least until I can get a straigh answer from the question I asked you.



Food for thought: I know some teachers are who are the hyper opposite of McDojo and set standards too high, rarely testing students. These are very few and far between, but they are out there. 

The problem with MA is almost every place in the U.S. wants the student to sign a contract. As a student, you really do not know what you are committing to until a few months into it.


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## dancingalone (Dec 30, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> In my dojo, my sensei did keep me in the dark, although it was perhaps my fault. There was this myth in my dojo that to take the black belt test you had to wait until the sensei told you that you could take it. I should've asked my sensei if it was true, that you had to wait for him to tell you that you could test for the black belt. As I said, it was a myth so it wasn't true but it was a very prevalent myth. If I had asked my sensei about it he would've dispelled the myth.



I haven't read the entire thread, but was this one of those giant dojo with hundred and hundreds of students?  This is not meant to be a personal attack, but it seems a bit bizarre to me that the teacher would never have approached you about ranking up if he had ANY type of relationship with you.  I've trained in a variety of arts that have rank levels to promote through, and the sensei/sahbum/shifu has never not told me what expectations he had for me in the near future.  "Sharpen up that kata."  "Here's the requirements for making sankkyu."  "You're almost there, maybe first duan next year."  These are all things some of my teachers have said to me and I would really only count myself as being very close to one of them.


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## lklawson (Dec 30, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Black belt status means different things to different ppl. Lay folks probably are in awe of it more than they should be. It is even further distorted by the fact that little Johnny has one too, and he is eight.


Lay folks rarely have an undistorted view of whatever it is that they are "lay folks" to.  Martial arts are no different.  



> Black belts are a marketing tool and cash cow. While on one hand they represent having mastered a set of curriculum and tests, they also are monetized, in a very expensive way.


Unless you're training at the YMCA, in a "Backyard Dojo," or under an instructor which doesn't use it as a marketing tool.  You know, black belts are marketing tools except when they're not.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 30, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> From there, it's important to realise just why an academic study is quite different to a physical, over-arching area. Academics are about memorisation and recall, as well as application of formula, martial arts are about development of physical skills. The neuro-physiology is different, the learning methodology is different, the application and testing methodology is different, and so on...


That depends on the area and time period.  In Medieval Europe, many of the same mnemonic techniques were used regardless of the area of instruction, either physical skills or intellectual skills.  Further, their view of how the universe "works" dominated, influenced, and dictated all aspects of their education, whether intellectual, philosophical, or physical skills.  In fact, to a certain degree, they were all considered to be linked, entwined inseparably with each other.

You can see an example of this in the front page of certain fight manuals, Fiore's Flos Duellatorum is an example.  Each of the animals shown, the things they're doing, and their specific positions on the page, have a pseudo-philosophical/scientific and mnemonic purpose.  They're symbolism intended to both create a frame of reference for learning and as part of a unifying "understanding" of the world.




Another example is how Mathematics, Mysticism/Philosophy/Hermetic Tradition, and Martial Arts are rolled up in the Destreza, the Spanish "Mystic Circle" most commonly recognized today in Thibault's "Mysterious Circle."

View attachment $Gerard_Thibault_Mysterious_Circle.jpg

I can't comment much more on the specifics than that, because it's outside of the scope of my usual studies.  However, to say that the learning methodologies of martial arts is different from those of academics reflects a modern 19th Century Western view of the world.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jks9199 (Dec 30, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Food for thought: I know some teachers are who are the hyper opposite of McDojo and set standards too high, rarely testing students. These are very few and far between, but they are out there.
> 
> The problem with MA is almost every place in the U.S. wants the student to sign a contract. As a student, you really do not know what you are committing to until a few months into it.



There are actually quite a lot of schools without contracts; they're just less commonly storefront operations and perhaps less visible or require a little more looking to find...

That said -- who are you (or me, or whoever) to say a teacher's standards are too strict.  As an instructor in my art, it's my responsibility and duty to ensure that it's passed along faithfully and consistently in the manner it was entrusted to me.   It's my job to hold the standards as I was held to them -- or the art is lessened and cheapened.  Other instructors in my style have some grounds to look at my standards -- but even then, I have to answer to MY instructor, and to the chief instructor, not them.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> You can see an example of this in the front page of certain fight manuals, Fiore's Flos Duellatorum is an example.  Each of the animals shown, the things they're doing, and their specific positions on the page, have a pseudo-philosophical/scientific and mnemonic purpose.  They're symbolism intended to both create a frame of reference for learning and as part of a unifying "understanding" of the world.
> 
> View attachment 18491
> 
> I can't comment much more on the specifics than that, because it's outside of the scope of my usual studies.


Sorry to quote myself but I thought that it would be more appropriate than re-editing the post.


Flos Duellatorum
The Attributes and Virtues of
a Master Fencer
*By Mathieu Ravignat*

Page 2
By Mathieu Ravignat
A Fourfold Ethical System
The four classical virtues are prudence, temperance, justice, and courage (sometimes
fortitude). Two of these, prudence and courage are found in dei Liberis treatise. Another,
fortitude, is drawn from the later seven virtues.
The origin of the fourfold system is traceable to Greek philosophy- other sources are
earlier, but the Socratic source is the most definite. Among the reporters of Socrates,
Xenophon is vague on the point; Plato in The Republic puts together a system of four
virtues adopted later, with modifications by St. Thomas. In The Laws, Bk. I, 631, Plato
recurs to his division: "Wisdom is the chief and leader: next follows temperance; and from
the union of these two with courage springs justice. These four virtues take precedence
in the class of divine goods". Aristotle, with variations of his own, describes the four
virtues that Plato had sketched; but in his Ethics he does not put them into one system.
They are treated in his general discussion, which does not aim at a complete
classification of virtues, and leaves interpreters free to give different enumerations.
The Romans, as represented by Cicero, repeated Plato and Aristotle: "Each man should
so conduct himself that fortitude appear in labours and dangers: temperance in foregoing
pleasures: prudence in the choice between good and evil: justice in giving every man his
own [in suo cuique tribuendo]" (De Fin., V, xxiii, 67; cf. De Offic., I, ii, 5). This is a
departure from the idea prominent in Platonic justice, and agrees with the Scholastic
definition.
However, it is St. Thomas Aquinas (born at Rocca Secca in the Kingdom of Naples 1225
or 1227; died at Fossa Nuova, 7 March, 1274) which is most responsible for bringing the
four Cardinal Virtues into the medieval mind. St. Thomas gave these four cardinal virtues
a common recognition and tried to give them systematic account and a logical ethical
framework. Dei Liberi in his use of the four-fold system of virtues is directly indebted to
his medieval predecessor St. Thomas Aquinas.
In a way, dei Liberi follows suit with Aquinas and creates the four cardinal virtues of
fencing. They are: Prudence, Courage, Fortitude, and Swiftness. Two of these virtues
are the same as the four classical cardinal ethical virtues: Prudence and Courage and
three have a moral level of meaning namely: Prudence, Courage and Fortitude.
The Use of Animals
The use of animals in a symbolic fashion to represent these virtues is well documented in
extant medieval bestiaries. A cultural weight was given to each beast, mythological,
ethical
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Page 3
and at times theological. Unlike our modern minds, the medieval use of animals was not
zoological but participated more in a type of natural mythology. For example Jesus was
often depicted either as a lamb or as a pelican. The pelican was held to be an animal of
great virtue because it was (wrongly) believed that it pecked at its own breast to feed its
children with blood.
The insertion of the symbolic knowledge of the bestiary in classical education over the
centuries had left an indelible imprint on the medieval psyche, including that of dei Liberi.
This resulted in the ethical and practical application of the bestiary to his art of combat.
The image above, from the Pisani-Dossi manuscript, includes text in the dialect of Italian
known as Friuli. The illustration is referred to as the seven swords and depicts the figure
of a man with seven swords centered on the body surrounded with four stylized animals
or beasts. The genius of dei Liberi is revealed in this single illustration, which effectively
summarizes his entire art, both armed and unarmed, in terms that communicate the
technical, physical, mental and ethical attributes of his combat system. At first glance,
each of the sword angles depicts one of the seven possible offensive strikes, the six cuts
and the thrust, all of which can be applied to most weapons. Positioned with the angles is
the text referring to the posta, illustrating the optimal offensive strategy from that
particular position. It also cleverly describes how a posta can offer both a defensive
posture and offensive posture in the same instant. Beyond this level of interpretation, one
can infer the most effective guard positions against opposing guard positions, a thread
that surfaces numerous times in the treatise.
It is clear by the text that the technical attributes of fighting must be balanced with the
ethical attributes. Each animal figure and its relative position with respect to the figure of
the man, refers to a particular physical, mental and ethical attribute of a Master fencer.
These are the ideals of dei Liberis system. It must be remembered here that his art was
not intended for the common folk, but as it says in the prologue it was intended for the
highly virtuous members of the princely classes.
It is also important note that in the illustrations each of the animals is wearing a golden
collar (painted gold in the original manuscript). This colour is also used throughout the
manuscript on the garters and crowns as an identification of the Master in the illustrations
of the plays. This implies that these attributes are what make a true master swordsman,
and that these are traits that all students must strive to embody. Therefore, it is critical
that these attributes and virtues be emphasized early on in the training of every student.
Not only to create the high level of skill and capabilities of a competent fighter, but also a
shining virtue and moral quality. The illustration also suggests by the placement of the
figures around the man, that a good and honorable fighter is one who not only possesses
these attributes, but is one who is capable of measuring them in order to strike an optimal
balance.
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Page 4
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Proceeding clockwise from the figure of the lynx, a more detailed examination of the
animals is included below.

The Lynx - Prudentia (Prudence)
Meio de milouo ceruino non uede creatura E aquello
meto sepre a sesto e mesura Prudentia. No other
creature is able to look so clearly as me, the lynx And
continuously by that method of the compass and
measure prudence

The image of the lynx holding a compass (a tool of determining measure between two
points) represents one of the four key attributes of a Master fencer. It is the ability to
assess the actions of the opponent and of the self, making adjustments in response to
actions taken by the opponent and using this assessment to enhance success in combat.
The position of the lynx over the head of the figure shows its importance and its
intellectual nature. It is also a crucial attribute, because prudent judgment maintains the
critical optimal distance (the dividers and the compass) between the fencer and his
opponent. It is the result of good judgment that the fencer is capable of anticipating his
opponents next attack, ensuring that the fighter will be in an optimal position in order to
react to the offensive strike with speed and confidence. This can only occur as a result of
the fencers ability to control the engagement through prudence.
Though a critical skill in fighting, prudence must also be used in concert with the other
attributes such as speed and strength. It rules the other attributes (or crowns them) in the
sense that it determines when best to apply them in a certain way. In wrestling for
example strength is not always called for, and it is judgment or prudence which will
determine when to give in or be strong, and which of these is most strategic at a given
time.

Being able to deliver a well-placed blow without endangering oneself is also an important
consideration. Offensive strikes work when a fencer has good measure (timing and
distance) as a result of effective judgment and prudence and is then able to deliver his
blow cleanly.
Medieval literature often depicts the lynx as having the powers of premonition, and when
applied to the fencer this translates into the master fencers ability to read and control his
opponents actions.
Ethically, prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in
every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it ("the prudent man looks
where he is going;" "keep sane and sober for your prayers"). Prudence is "right reason in
action," writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle. It is not to be confused with
timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the
charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is
prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man
determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this
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Page 6
virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts
about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.
The Lion - Audatia (Courage/Audacity)
Piu de mi lione non porta cor ardito Pero de bataia
faço a zaschaduno inuito Audatia. » None can bring a
more daring heart than me, a lion And I challenge
anyone to battle Courage.
The lion figures prominently in the medieval period, especially in heraldry. Courage has
long been held as one of the four cardinal virtues since classical times. The lion
represents the ability to take risks when needed and the ability to face the fear of combat.
The lion is placed at the left of the figure. It is represented as supporting a heart with its
right paw. The heart was often believed to be the measure of a man, and the centre of
his emotions, including that of fear and hope. The heart is also representative of love, the
sacred heart of Jesus being the most important medieval icon of this kind. Therefore, in
the medieval period, courage was tempered with mercy and the ethics of Christianity.
In combat, however, courage must be balanced with prudence. This balance creates the
right combination allowing the fencer to avoid over confidence, brashness and bellicosity
which may lead ultimately to failure. More subtly, it provides the impetuous to take
advantage of that moment of opportunity when a blow must be risked to defeat the
opponent. In this way it is essential to the use of proper timing.
In ethics, courage is the trait of persisting in or going after what is good or right in the
face of difficulty (danger of harm or loss, toil, or suffering). To the Christian medieval mind
courage was the ability and readiness to undergo suffering or risk danger for the sake of
doing God's will or of reaching some spiritual good.
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Page 7
The Elephant - Fortitudo
(Fortitude)
Ellefant son e uno castello hoper cargho E non
me inçenochio ni perdo uargho. I am the
elephant and I have a castle for a burden And
never do I kneel down nor do I loose my true
place.

The figure of an elephant, illustrated with a tower on its back, is positioned below the
figure of the man and denotes stability and endurance. In historical representations the
elephant is rarely depicted without a tower on his back. This representation may derive
from the Indian war elephant, or even to the war elephants of the legendary Hannibal, the
conqueror of the Roman Empire.
The figure of an elephant, coupled with the text, highlights the importance of strength, the
foundation on which a fencer builds his skill and technique. This is referred to periodically
in dei Liberis manuscript and is particularly mentioned in the wrestling, or abrazare,
section. The application of strength comes into play in a variety of situations, such as the
strength of cuts, the leveraging of wrestling holds and throws. Prudence and judgment
should dictate the amount of strength needed in a given situation. Unbalanced with the
other Master attributes, the fencer would rely too heavily on his strength to the detriment
of his intelligence and speed. He may then be easily tricked by a smarter fencer or may
encounter someone even stronger or faster than he is, and thus be defeated.
The illustration also suggests the critical need for solid well-rooted footwork, ensuring
balance and equilibrium. It is interesting to note that dei Liberi does not privilege ground
fighting in his manuscript, and therefore it is crucially important for the fencer to have a
good sense of balance and rooted legs so that he may not be thrown to the ground. This
preference for upright fighting may be indicated by the lack of knee joints on the
illustration of the elephant.
But fortitude is also that ability to take punishment. It is that strength of mind to keep on
fighting even against seemingly insurmountable odds. It is a form of willpower backed by
a resistant and enduring body. Never kneeling down may also refer to this quality of
never giving up to another man. It is also the ability to accept pain and continue fighting.
In training, it is clearly important to develop both muscular and cardiovascular endurance
as well as toughness all aspect of fortitude.
Ethically, fortitude is the moral virtue that ensures firmness in difficulties and constancy in
the pursuit of the good. It strengthens the resolve to resist temptations and to overcome
obstacles in the moral life. The virtue of fortitude enables one to conquer fear, even fear
of
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Page 8
death, and to face trials and persecutions. It even disposes one to renounce and sacrifice
his life in defence of a just cause.
The Tiger - Celeritas (Swiftness)
Yo tigro tanto son presto a corer e uoltare Che la
sagita del cello non me po auancare. I am the tiger, I
am very quick to run and turn That the arrow in the sky
cannot overcome me.
The fourth animals we consider is the figure of the tiger. The heraldic tiger was not
zoologically correct but was more of the order of a mythological beast to the medieval
Italians. It is therefore depicted here in its non-natural heraldic form. It is depicted similar
to the lion and grasping an arrow referred to as sagita in the text. Sagita is the star of
Sagittarius, the Centaur Archer. Therefore, it also implies the speed of the celestial horse.
The attribute of swiftness figures highly in the manuscript, especially in the abrazare
section, in which speed and strength are referred to as the top two of the seven important
requirements for wrestling. It is clear that speed in its physical form is of crucial
importance in fighting. Speed will often determine a successful strike and it is a truism
that it is the faster hand, which carries the sword, which usually wins the day.
But there is also a different kind of speed implied by the figure. In his plays, dei Liberi
often implies more than one kind of speed: the physical speed of the technique but also
the intellectual swiftness of the chosen counter or remedy. Mentally, swiftness is the
minds ability to assess a particular changing situation and the quickness of the minds
response to that situation. Therefore, physical swiftness is represented here as the actual
tiger, whereas the mental form is represented by the cosmic principle of Sagittarius, the
arrow, as the symbol of the quickness of human thought.
Summary: The Ideal Swordsman
It is clear in the manuscript that Liberi believes that it is the possession of the proper
combination of these four virtues which makes the "ideal swodsman:"
We are the four animals with these traits, He who
wants to battle should measure with us, And he
who has a good portion of our virtues, He will
have honour in battle, according to this art.
Therefore, the Master fencer possesses the necessary judgment and prudence to ensure
tactical supremacy, the courage to face combat and take advantage of opportunities
created by his judgment, the fortitude to keep fighting and the swiftness of body and mind
to deliver his techniques.
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Page 9
The body of a master fencer must possess muscular strength and speed, nimbleness,
and endurance both muscular and cardiovascular. The mind of a master must possess a
strong willpower, be quick witted and intelligent. Ethically, a master should be prudent in
his speech and actions, courageous in his morals and principles, and intelligent in his
opinions.
With these lofty goals in mind we move onto the technical aspects of his art, always
keeping in mind the highest summit of its realization.​

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

​


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## Rumy73 (Dec 30, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> There are actually quite a lot of schools without contracts; they're just less commonly storefront operations and perhaps less visible or require a little more looking to find...
> 
> That said -- who are you (or me, or whoever) to say a teacher's standards are too strict.  As an instructor in my art, it's my responsibility and duty to ensure that it's passed along faithfully and consistently in the manner it was entrusted to me.   It's my job to hold the standards as I was held to them -- or the art is lessened and cheapened.  Other instructors in my style have some grounds to look at my standards -- but even then, I have to answer to MY instructor, and to the chief instructor, not them.



Who am I to say? Well I can discern between high standards and unreasonableness. MA school leaders are not some god who cannot be questioned.


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## lklawson (Dec 30, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Who am I to say? Well I can discern between high standards and unreasonableness. MA school leaders are not some god who cannot be questioned.


It's his school, thus it's his standards.  If you don't like those standards, go some place else.  There's lots of places and BB is meaningless outside of the specific lineage for the specific system in question.  If you're lucky a given system will have a certifying body that sets standards and curicula for all schools in it's organization.  If you're really really lucky, it will be a member of a multi-organization umbrella which all shook hands and agreed to recognize each other's ranks and curriculums (like Judo does).  But sometimes it's just Sokitume Sensei and what *he* says for *his* school.  Don't like it, go someplace else.  <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Rumy73 (Dec 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> It's his school, thus it's his standards.  If you don't like those standards, go some place else.  There's lots of places and BB is meaningless outside of the specific lineage for the specific system in question.  If you're lucky a given system will have a certifying body that sets standards and curicula for all schools in it's organization.  If you're really really lucky, it will be a member of a multi-organization umbrella which all shook hands and agreed to recognize each other's ranks and curriculums (like Judo does).  But sometimes it's just Sokitume Sensei and what *he* says for *his* school.  Don't like it, go someplace else.  <shrug>
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Thanks for the wisdom.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> That depends on the area and time period.  In Medieval Europe, many of the same mnemonic techniques were used regardless of the area of instruction, either physical skills or intellectual skills.  Further, their view of how the universe "works" dominated, influenced, and dictated all aspects of their education, whether intellectual, philosophical, or physical skills.  In fact, to a certain degree, they were all considered to be linked, entwined inseparably with each other.
> 
> You can see an example of this in the front page of certain fight manuals, Fiore's Flos Duellatorum is an example.  Each of the animals shown, the things they're doing, and their specific positions on the page, have a pseudo-philosophical/scientific and mnemonic purpose.  They're symbolism intended to both create a frame of reference for learning and as part of a unifying "understanding" of the world.
> 
> ...




Hey Kirk,

Yeah, I'm quite familiar with such things, especially in the older Japanese arts (and have certainly come across a fair bit of it in the older European ones as well, and other cultures of course), but as the context was modern academics and modern martial arts classes, specifically the requirements for Shodan in the OP's school, the application and assimilation/relationship in older systems didn't seem particularly relevant. I'd also argue that, while certainly part of the overall "schooling" taught to the prospective warriors, it was more that they would attend a single school which encompassed all such things (same as in Japan), not that the martial arts themselves were necessarily the same thing, just that they were addressed as part of a more holistic, overarching pedagogy.

Very interesting posts, as usual, of course.


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## PhotonGuy (Dec 31, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> I don't really want to harp on this, but...
> 
> Was nobody promoted while you're there?  Did nothing else give you a clue that you needed to do something more in order to test? You seem to be awful intent  on blaming your instructor rather than accepting some of the responsibility.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk



    I said it was probably my fault, so Im not blaming my instructor.


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## lklawson (Dec 31, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hey Kirk,
> 
> Yeah, I'm quite familiar with such things, especially in the older Japanese arts (and have certainly come across a fair bit of it in the older European ones as well, and other cultures of course), but as the context was modern academics and modern martial arts classes, specifically the requirements for Shodan in the OP's school, the application and assimilation/relationship in older systems didn't seem particularly relevant. I'd also argue that, while certainly part of the overall "schooling" taught to the prospective warriors, it was more that they would attend a single school which encompassed all such things (same as in Japan), not that the martial arts themselves were necessarily the same thing, just that they were addressed as part of a more holistic, overarching pedagogy.


Fair enough.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## MJS (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Food for thought: I know some teachers are who are the hyper opposite of McDojo and set standards too high, rarely testing students. These are very few and far between, but they are out there.
> 
> The problem with MA is almost every place in the U.S. wants the student to sign a contract. As a student, you really do not know what you are committing to until a few months into it.



Not testing people at all, isn't a good thing, IMO. However, I know of a few schools in my area, in which the testing standards are high, and it shows in the students.  My teacher is like that.  I recall one night after class, I was talking to him, and he said that he wouldn't feel right with himself, if he gave rank to someone, especially BB rank, to someone who wasn't ready.  

As far as the contracts go...sure, some places do that, some don't.  Some use very high pressure, some don't. IMO though, it's very important for the potential student to research things.  I mean, after all, it's your money.  Why would you want to give your hard earned money to a fraud?


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## Instructor (Dec 31, 2013)

We have no contracts at my school, folks are free to come and go as they please.  We do normally delay students at the last few levels before the black belt test.  We encourage them to help in teaching others and to do what they've learned over and over. It's not unusual to delay a student for six months or so just to make sure they have it backwards and forwards and can do what they are trained when pressed.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 31, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> I said it was probably my fault, so Im not blaming my instructor.



Are you incapable of reading the actual questions? You have, for a number of threads now, ignored questions, answered ones not asked, and complained that people aren't registering what you're saying. You were asked if anyone else was promoted. You were asked is there was anything else that gave you a clue as to other requirements for your grade. You have responded without answering those questions.

Look, I'm going to be blunt. You come across to me as a sheltered, largely emotionally immature individual. A grown-up child, really. I don't know if there's a clinical reason, or not, but frankly, you may want to start considering looking at your life. You have made numerous references to your life being ruined by not getting a black belt by the time you were 20, saying it ruined job prospects, but couldn't identify what job prospects required it (the only one I can think of is martial arts teacher, really). You've started threads in the Qi/Ki section talking about Yoda jumping around as if it wasn't a computer-generated image in a movie (saying "he was 800 years old, which is quite old even for his species"... dude, he's a fictional movie character, and it was a scene in a movie), you refuse to answer direct, simple questions, and act as if the whole world depends on minuscule things. It doesn't.

If I was to suggest something, it would be that the reason you weren't allowed to test for so long is largely down to this lack of emotional maturity. I have had students like you myself, and have some now... genuine students who are loyal and dedicated... but due to psychological issues, it severely limits their progress. My personal standards for black belt means that I'd be very reticent to test them at all... some I "inherited" as black belts, but I can't see them going any further without a major change.

I recommend looking to yourself, and potentially seeking professional therapy. I don't know that we're really that beneficial for you here if you can't get past these issues. We are a discussion group, not a therapy one.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Are you incapable of reading the actual questions? You have, for a number of threads now, ignored questions, answered ones not asked, and complained that people aren't registering what you're saying. You were asked if anyone else was promoted. You were asked is there was anything else that gave you a clue as to other requirements for your grade. You have responded without answering those questions.
> 
> Look, I'm going to be blunt. You come across to me as a sheltered, largely emotionally immature individual. A grown-up child, really. I don't know if there's a clinical reason, or not, but frankly, you may want to start considering looking at your life. You have made numerous references to your life being ruined by not getting a black belt by the time you were 20, saying it ruined job prospects, but couldn't identify what job prospects required it (the only one I can think of is martial arts teacher, really). You've started threads in the Qi/Ki section talking about Yoda jumping around as if it wasn't a computer-generated image in a movie (saying "he was 800 years old, which is quite old even for his species"... dude, he's a fictional movie character, and it was a scene in a movie), you refuse to answer direct, simple questions, and act as if the whole world depends on minuscule things. It doesn't.
> 
> ...



I will respond to the rest of your post when I have time but as for now I will say that my post about Yoda was in the bar and grill post which is not supposed to be particularly about martial arts but anything else you want to chat about. I obviously know that Yoda is pretend and all but in the bar and grill board you can post about particularly whatever you want. My post was meant for Starwars fans and I would assume that most, if not all of us Starwars geeks know that Starwars is pretend and we discuss such stuff from a Starwars standpoint well aware that the stuff we are talking about is make believe. 

As for not being allowed to test, it wasn't that I wasn't allowed to test it was that I didn't know I could test at my own discretion. Yes there were other students that were promoted at the time but I didn't think to ask my sensei if it was required for him to tell me to test.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

Also, at one time I did see a therapist but he did not have a background in the martial arts so he wasn't of much help to my martial arts dilemma. What I needed was a therapist who did have a background in the martial arts.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Also, at one time I did see a therapist but he did not have a background in the martial arts so he wasn't of much help to my martial arts dilemma. What I needed was a therapist who did have a background in the martial arts.



No, you didn't.

And your Star Wars post wasn't in the Locker Room. Your one on being like Wolverine was. And it didn't read as anything but you asking seriously about that as well.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

MJS said:


> You're still not answering the question.  Let me ask again.  Why would someone leave a student in the dark?  I mean really...what possible thing could be gained from doing that?  Stringing the student along, prolonging the BB test, so the teacher keeps getting money? If thats the case, then thats a mcdojo, and I'd run away..fast!!!
> 
> As for this 'myth', well, I'm sorry, but I've been training for over 20 yrs in the arts, and I've never seen a dojo like you describe, other than a mcdojo.  Each and every dojo that I've trained in, the teacher told the student when they were ready, not the other way around.  My teacher is very traditional, very old school, and is Japanese.  I wouldn't dream of asking when I could test, for ANY rank, let alone BB, and I doubt any other student there would either.  It's not done out of fear, its done out of respect!
> 
> Anyways, I'm done for now with this thread, at least until I can get a straigh answer from the question I asked you.



Why would a sensei leave a student in the dark about what he needs to do to get a black belt? Maybe its because the student doesn't ask the sensei. Now, you might be asking why a sensei would leave a student in the dark who doesn't ask, that the student shouldn't ask and that the sensei should just tell the student what they need to work on and when the student is ready. So in that case, why would a sensei leave a student in the dark? I don't know. Im just telling you my experience.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why would a sensei leave a student in the dark about what he needs to do to get a black belt? Maybe its because the student doesn't ask the sensei. Now, you might be asking why a sensei would leave a student in the dark who doesn't ask, that the student shouldn't ask and that the sensei should just tell the student what they need to work on and when the student is ready. So in that case, why would a sensei leave a student in the dark? I don't know. Im just telling you my experience.


Maybe the student was so obsessed with the belt the Sensei decided the student wasnt ready.


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why would a sensei leave a student in the dark about what he needs to do to get a black belt? Maybe its because the student doesn't ask the sensei. Now, you might be asking why a sensei would leave a student in the dark who doesn't ask, that the student shouldn't ask and that the sensei should just tell the student what they need to work on and when the student is ready. So in that case, why would a sensei leave a student in the dark? I don't know. Im just telling you my experience.



I wasn't there.  I don't know what you were or weren't told -- or what was or wasn't made available to you as far as information goes.  My guess, based on what you've said, is that other people did find out, and that he just may have figured that everyone was aware of the process.  Maybe it was spelled out early in your training, and you just didn't notice or remember.  Don't know.  Don't really care.  I am honestly tired of the whole "my instructor didn't tell me I could test so I didn't make my life goal and it's cast a huge dark shadow on my life ever since" line.  Dude -- we all have goals we didn't reach when we wanted to.  We moved on.  We either did it later or found a new direction to go.


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## MJS (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Why would a sensei leave a student in the dark about what he needs to do to get a black belt? Maybe its because the student doesn't ask the sensei. Now, you might be asking why a sensei would leave a student in the dark who doesn't ask, that the student shouldn't ask and that the sensei should just tell the student what they need to work on and when the student is ready. So in that case, why would a sensei leave a student in the dark? I don't know. Im just telling you my experience.



Did you read this?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-a-black-belt-really-is?p=1617264#post1617264

Perhaps you're not understanding, perhaps you don't want to understand...I really don't know.  Let's try again.  In your opinion, you don't know why, but you think it's because the student isn't asking?  So you feel that the teacher will always keep the student in the dark, because the student isn't asking?  So I'm asking YOU, what the inst. possibly has to gain by doing that??????  

You seem to think that teachers don't tell their students what they need to work on.  Perhaps its a matter of you or the student, not listening to what the teacher is saying.  Again, if you read the post I made in that link I posted, you'll see (hopefully) what I'm saying.  To be a bit more clear for you...the teacher may not sit you down and explain piece by piece, what you need to work on, but instead, give comments, criticism, etc, during class.  If you're not listening, well.....


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Maybe the student was so obsessed with the belt the Sensei decided the student wasnt ready.



    At my dojo you sign up for belt tests, including the black belt test, at your own discretion. Whether you pass or not is a different matter but you're not held back because you're too obsessed. Being overly obsessed is not going to cause the sensei to not pass you.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

MJS said:


> Did you read this?
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-a-black-belt-really-is?p=1617264#post1617264
> 
> Perhaps you're not understanding, perhaps you don't want to understand...I really don't know.  Let's try again.  In your opinion, you don't know why, but you think it's because the student isn't asking?  So you feel that the teacher will always keep the student in the dark, because the student isn't asking?  So I'm asking YOU, what the inst. possibly has to gain by doing that??????
> ...



My sensei does give comments, criticism, and pointers to students during class based on their technique. He will tell you specifically if you're doing something wrong in your technique and how to fix it. I don't think an instructor has anything to gain by keeping a student in the dark about their technique.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> I haven't read the entire thread, but was this one of those giant dojo with hundred and hundreds of students?  This is not meant to be a personal attack, but it seems a bit bizarre to me that the teacher would never have approached you about ranking up if he had ANY type of relationship with you.  I've trained in a variety of arts that have rank levels to promote through, and the sensei/sahbum/shifu has never not told me what expectations he had for me in the near future.  "Sharpen up that kata."  "Here's the requirements for making sankkyu."  "You're almost there, maybe first duan next year."  These are all things some of my teachers have said to me and I would really only count myself as being very close to one of them.


My dojo is not particularly large, there is certainly not as many as a hundred students in a single class. The evening classes are usually the biggest classes and they might get about twenty students, the smaller classes earlier during the day might have six or seven students. My sensei does give pointers about how to make your technique better but he expects you to sign up for belt tests at your own discretion. If you don't sign up he will probably just figure you're not interested in promoting.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

Instructor said:


> We have no contracts at my school, folks are free to come and go as they please.  We do normally delay students at the last few levels before the black belt test.  We encourage them to help in teaching others and to do what they've learned over and over. It's not unusual to delay a student for six months or so just to make sure they have it backwards and forwards and can do what they are trained when pressed.



Delaying a student sometimes makes sense, just to make sure they've got down everything really well. However, there comes a time when a student should test. Six months is not that long to delay a student. Sometimes a student might be delayed more. As it is though I think that a student who is a high level brown belt should take perhaps a year at the most to become a black belt.


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Delaying a student sometimes makes sense, just to make sure they've got down everything really well. However, there comes a time when a student should test. Six months is not that long to delay a student. Sometimes a student might be delayed more. As it is though I think that a student who is a high level brown belt should take perhaps a year at the most to become a black belt.



Perhaps at your school.  In my school and in my system, 2 or more years is typical.  Some people never reach the appropriate level of understanding, knowledge, and skill to be recommended to be a black belt.


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## MJS (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> My sensei does give comments, criticism, and pointers to students during class based on their technique. He will tell you specifically if you're doing something wrong in your technique and how to fix it. I don't think an instructor has anything to gain by keeping a student in the dark about their technique.



Good!  So, going on that, if teachers are doing that, and if the students are paying close attention, then there should be nobody left in the dark.


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## MJS (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Delaying a student sometimes makes sense, just to make sure they've got down everything really well. However, there comes a time when a student should test. Six months is not that long to delay a student. Sometimes a student might be delayed more. As it is though I think that a student who is a high level brown belt should take perhaps a year at the most to become a black belt.



That will vary from school to school.  A time limit is really moot.  When it happens, it happens.


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## MJS (Jan 1, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> My dojo is not particularly large, there is certainly not as many as a hundred students in a single class. The evening classes are usually the biggest classes and they might get about twenty students, the smaller classes earlier during the day might have six or seven students. My sensei does give pointers about how to make your technique better but he expects you to sign up for belt tests at your own discretion. If you don't sign up he will probably just figure you're not interested in promoting.



So, going on this, you could sign up for a test each month or however long it is between each rank promotion test?  What is the average time is takes someone to reach BB in your school?


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

MJS said:


> So, going on this, you could sign up for a test each month or however long it is between each rank promotion test?  What is the average time is takes someone to reach BB in your school?



Tests are held every three to four months, so yes students can sign up for tests every three to four months when they're held. On the average, it takes about five years to get a black belt in my dojo.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps at your school.  In my school and in my system, 2 or more years is typical.  Some people never reach the appropriate level of understanding, knowledge, and skill to be recommended to be a black belt.



Well thats because lots of people quit before they make black belt. From my observations, most people who take up the martial arts will quit before making brown belt. There are some students who never go beyond white belt, they take a few lessons and then decide its not their thing. Obviously you never will reach the standards for black belt if you quit before getting there.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 27, 2014)

As its been pointed out on this thread, a white belt should not be too obsessed with getting a black belt. If they are than they're getting ahead of themselves. It would be like the student whose teacher tells him the more he is obsessed with mastery of the art the longer it would take. I agree with that, about a white belt not being obsessed with the black belt. A white belt student could have it as an eventual goal but they should mostly just focus on getting the next belt, taking it one belt at a time. So, the way I see it a white belt or a green belt should not be so fixated on the black belt but I see no reason why a brown belt shouldn't be concentrating on getting a black belt. Usually brown belt is the rank just before black belt, so if the black belt is one rank away than the student should be focusing on it. They're at that point in time and at that level in their martial art that they should be working on getting the black belt and that includes finding out and knowing what they need to do to get it. It would be nice to hear other people's positions on this.


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## dancingalone (Jan 27, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> It would be nice to hear other people's positions on this.



I'd rather the students focus on the material rather than the belt itself, though certainly I realize the two are linked and that it is not a binary, either-or situation.

In my experience, I've found the more serious students immediately recognize that the belt is an artifact gained along the journey, something incidental rather than consequential in of itself.  People have said this a million times before:  your knowledge and skill will always show on the floor no matter what belt you wear.  IMO, that's absolutely true.  I've seen lots of black belts that I thought could use some more practice.  The number of green belts and brown belts who I thought were exceptional number considerably fewer.  Guess which group I respect more?  In other words, think about achieving excellence first - the rank will follow suit.


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## Cirdan (Jan 28, 2014)

A black helt is someone who learned to shut up and train, rather than whine about how unfair life is.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 28, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> A black helt is someone who learned to shut up and train, rather than whine about how unfair life is.



That's exactly what I did. I would shut up and train and I trained really hard and showed up as much as I could at class. That's why it took me much longer than it should've to get from brown belt to black belt, because I had shut up instead of asking sensei if I was supposed to wait until he told me I could test or sign up myself.


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's exactly what I did. I would shut up and train and I trained really hard and showed up as much as I could at class. That's why it took me much longer than it should've to get from brown belt to black belt, because I had shut up instead of asking sensei if I was supposed to wait until he told me I could test or sign up myself.



I feel for you.  Truly.  We can say that belts don't matter, etc, but in your case, probably it did and profoundly so according to you.  

But your experience is very atypical in my opinion.  That's really not the way most schools operate with having students schedule their own BB test, and I've been in the martial arts a long, long time.  Even odder is that the instructor never approached you about ranking up.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 28, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> I feel for you.  Truly.  We can say that belts don't matter, etc, but in your case, probably it did and profoundly so according to you.
> 
> But your experience is very atypical in my opinion.  That's really not the way most schools operate with having students schedule their own BB test, and I've been in the martial arts a long, long time.  Even odder is that the instructor never approached you about ranking up.



You don't entirely schedule your own BB test. Tests are held every three or four months and a student signs up to test for their next belt up, whatever it may be, if they feel they're up to it. My dojo is not a super traditionally run place, the more traditional dojos usually are the ones that have the sensei tell the student when they will test. As for the instructor not approaching me, he expects you to either figure some stuff out yourself, or if you're not sure about something he expects you to ask him about it not the other way around.


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## dancingalone (Jan 28, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> As for the instructor not approaching me, he expects you to either figure some stuff out yourself, or if you're not sure about something he expects you to ask him about it not the other way around.



OK.  I understand that's the way he operates.

What about higher level material though?  Don't you have some advanced curriculum more or less tied into gaining a shodan rank and beyond?  If so, didn't you ever want to learn it?  Why the reticence about asking?


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 29, 2014)

Most of what rank promotion is based on is kata. Promotion also includes single techniques, combinations, and sparring but about 80 percent of it is kata based. By the time you test for first degree black belt the only thing you're tested on that you haven't been tested on before for lower belts are some extra katas. There is a sheet that lists the requirements for each belt up to and including the first degree black belt but it doesn't list anything beyond first degree. To find out what you need to know for second degree and beyond, you would probably have to talk to the sensei. As for my reticence about asking, that was because I didn't think to ask, I just assumed you had to be told you could take the black belt test as it was a myth among some of the students, and because some people say its disrespectful to ask sensei such stuff, which Im trying to point out is a bit silly.

And yes, belts rank isn't entirely accurate in showing a student's skill level and ability in a martial art, just like grades aren't entirely accurate at showing how well a student learns subject material. Its possible for a student to get an A in a class and for there to be another student in the class who gets a B and yet knows more about the material than the A student. However, just like grades, belt rank is an indicator of how a sensei judges a student's progress and getting a black belt from a sensei means that you've met that sensei's standards for the rank which is a good thing if you've got a good sensei who has good high standards and who doesn't just hand out black belts, or for that matter, mail them.


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## Cirdan (Jan 29, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's exactly what I did. I would shut up and train and I trained really hard and showed up as much as I could at class. That's why it took me much longer than it should've to get from brown belt to black belt, because I had shut up instead of asking sensei if I was supposed to wait until he told me I could test or sign up myself.



Indeed, I can see you are not the whining type at all.


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## dancingalone (Jan 29, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Most of what rank promotion is based on is kata. Promotion also includes single techniques, combinations, and sparring but about 80 percent of it is kata based. By the time you test for first degree black belt the only thing you're tested on that you haven't been tested on before for lower belts are some extra katas. There is a sheet that lists the requirements for each belt up to and including the first degree black belt but it doesn't list anything beyond first degree. To find out what you need to know for second degree and beyond, you would probably have to talk to the sensei. As for my reticence about asking, that was because I didn't think to ask, I just assumed you had to be told you could take the black belt test as it was a myth among some of the students, and because some people say its disrespectful to ask sensei such stuff, which Im trying to point out is a bit silly.
> 
> And yes, belts rank isn't entirely accurate in showing a student's skill level and ability in a martial art, just like grades aren't entirely accurate at showing how well a student learns subject material. Its possible for a student to get an A in a class and for there to be another student in the class who gets a B and yet knows more about the material than the A student. However, just like grades, belt rank is an indicator of how a sensei judges a student's progress and getting a black belt from a sensei means that you've met that sensei's standards for the rank which is a good thing if you've got a good sensei who has good high standards and who doesn't just hand out black belts, or for that matter, mail them.



Well, good luck.  I realize that this all took place years ago and you've moved on in some respects even if you still study at the same school.  My final thought is that if you've haven't managed to build a close relationship yet with your teacher, it might be a good idea to cultivate one.  A lot of martial arts instruction and learning doesn't necessarily occur on the dojo floor.  Sometimes, a quick comment that comes at the dinner table can have a lot of mileage if only because its something that doesn't occur to Sensei to say in the heat of training.  A sensei is supposed to give you what you (figuratively - not necessarily aimed at you personally) need, even if the lesson isn't one you want at the moment.  Better students will understand whether their needs mesh with what the teacher can or is willing to provide and look accordingly.


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## PhotonGuy (May 19, 2020)

MJS said:


> I wouldn't dream of asking when I could test, for ANY rank, let alone BB, and I doubt any other student there would either.  It's not done out of fear, its done out of respect!


So why is asking when you could test disrespectful?


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## isshinryuronin (May 19, 2020)

lklawson said:


> In summation, a "black belt" "says" whatever the people in charge of your martial art says that a black belt says.


This is the bottom line, in practical terms.  Unfortunately, those "in charge" may have no respect for what a black belt is supposed to mean, or have a false sense of what proficiency in TMA (in my case, karate) should mean.  This is most likely due to how they were taught.  Their teacher probably had low expectations, and so a downward spiral of quality is passed on.  Or, the guy in charge might just put greed ahead of quality.

In ideal terms, a black belt should mean that, whatever the style, the student should have 90% of the techniques down pat so they can be used effectively in a real life situation.  This means good control, form, speed, power, balance, flow, timing, tactics and other elements that make the art actually work at a high level. 
The best way to judge this is to measure yourself against your peers, by observing other schools, or by competition, or ask other teachers to evaluate you.  Walk into another school with a white belt, and the fact that you are a black belt should be quickly recognized by your peers.  If not, you may need to re-evaluate the meaning of your black belt and apply yourself to improve.

Then there are the non-physical elements that IMO should be an integral part of getting a black belt:  Perseverance in overcoming weaknesses, injuries or failures, dedication, some philosophical and historical understanding of the origins of the art, a moral imperative to use the art to aid others, and so on.  These are just a few random thoughts on the subject, hopefully nothing new for most of you.

A first degree black belt is, indeed, the beginning of the road to mastering one's self and finding the art is richer than one's ego.  Few new black belts are at this stage.  Patience and humility are also things that usually come after that first exhilarating promotion to black as you progress in degrees.  But that's where the real payoff is.


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## KenpoMaster805 (May 20, 2020)

Balrog said:


> I was reminded today of the old saying:  a Black Belt is simply a White Belt who never gave up.
> 
> Lot of truth in it.


Yes that is true


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## KenpoMaster805 (May 20, 2020)

Balrog said:


> I was reminded today of the old saying:  a Black Belt is simply a White Belt who never gave up.
> 
> Lot of truth in it.


True dat


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## KenpoMaster805 (May 20, 2020)

What a black belt really is

Black Belt Means your a white Belt that didnt quit

Also a black belt is given by the head instructor who deserve it and they have meet their requirements to earn their black belt 

It will take 5 years or so to earn a black belt if your a quick learner

Yes its true some dont make it to their black belt they either quit or got busy 

As for me im a 3rd brown soon to be 2nd brown on thursday it took me 3 years for my 2nd Brown so i have to up it up a bit to get my 1st brown by december then next year for my black Belt earning a black belt is a must for us that's our goal to be a black belt


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## Dirty Dog (May 20, 2020)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> It will take 5 years or so to earn a black belt if your a quick learner



That's such a broad claim that you just KNOW it's going to be wrong. And in fact, it IS wrong.
Kukkiwon schools in South Korea routinely award black belts after about a year. In our Moo Duk Kwan school, average was about 8 years. My understanding is that BJJ schools average around 8-10 years.
It's always important to remember that something may be true of your particular school without being true in the hundreds of thousands of other schools.


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## Aegis (May 20, 2020)

Ultimately a black belt is meaningless outside your own system.  there are no fixed standards for black belt, there are no standard timescales for black belts to be earned, and earning a black belt in system A doesn't necessarily mean you're at the same level as someone with a black belt in system B.

Basically it's just a step on the overall measurement scale for the art or school in question.  If the instructor has high standards for black belt, it might be that a black belt represents close to a decade of solid training and the trust of the instructor to teach the system to the next generation, while an instructor who sees black belt as nothing particularly special could hand them out after a year as recognition that their student has learned enough of the basics to now study properly.

My view is that standards should be relatively high for black belt, largely because of how the general public has been conditioned to think that black belt = expert.  As such, that means that to me a black belt should be more than capable of demonstrating and teaching pretty much any technique in the system in question, and ideally they should have a proven track record of teaching others (either as main instructor or as an assistant to the school's main instructor(s)) before testing for black belt.


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## lklawson (May 20, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This is the bottom line, in practical terms.  Unfortunately, those "in charge" may have no respect for what a black belt is supposed to mean, or have a false sense of what proficiency in TMA (in my case, karate) should mean.


Horsefeathers.  Neither you nor I get to tell some other system what a black belt is "supposed" to mean.  It is supposed to mean whatever they say it means in the context of their system.

There is no universal meaning to either what a black belt is or is supposed to be.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## isshinryuronin (May 20, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Horsefeathers. Neither you nor I get to tell some other system what a black belt is "supposed" to mean. It is supposed to mean whatever they say it means in the context of their system.



I don't understand your comment.  The first line of my post (that you quoted) agrees with your comment.  I was clearly agreeing with your post that a black belt is whatever the system says it is.  In fact, I said that was the bottom line.  But I don't have to like that bottom line.  I did point out some pitfalls with that reality, and I think most would agree that those pitfalls are real.

I went on to discuss* my*_ *ideals*_ of what a black belt should be, and by reading other posts on this thread, there seems to be general agreement that a black belt should have a strong skill level in his art to maintain the integrity of the belt.  All I'm really saying is that there should be high standards for a black belt, as Aegis just posted, and that *you liked*.  So, again, I don't understand the contradiction.

For example, if a BJJ, Karate, or Judo black belt goes into 5 other schools of the same art to work out, and all the black belts from those other schools watch him and say "WTF?  Where did this guy train?  Our green belts look better than that", that guy's black belt cannot have much worth *among his peers *in the MA world.

Or if he enters 10 tournaments and comes in dead last each time, he should start to question his delusional skill level (instilled in him by his teacher by giving him a black belt).  If that black belt is serious about his art and self respect, that realization should motivate him to seek further training somewhere and work diligently on self improvement.


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## lklawson (May 20, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I don't understand your comment.  The first line of my post (that you quoted) agrees with your comment.  I was clearly agreeing with your post that a black belt is whatever the system says it is.  In fact, I said that was the bottom line.  But I don't have to like that bottom line.  I did point out some pitfalls with that reality, and I think most would agree that those pitfalls are real.


that's part of your mistake. There aren't any pitfalls. It's just different things. Might as well discuss the pitfalls between parchment and papyrus. At least that would have some basis.

Your opinions are another part of the problem. your opinions don't matter about the standards of someone else's system. It's their system. You don't get to say what is good or bad standards in their system. You can talk about your system. That's fine. But you can't apply your standards to someone else's system. There's no "supposed" to be. That's the point.

Peace favor your sword ( mobile)


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## PhotonGuy (May 22, 2020)

MJS said:


> You're still not answering the question.  Let me ask again.  Why would someone leave a student in the dark?  I mean really...what possible thing could be gained from doing that?  Stringing the student along, prolonging the BB test, so the teacher keeps getting money? If thats the case, then thats a mcdojo, and I'd run away..fast!!!


First the instructor would have to know that the student wants to earn a black belt. I couldn't imagine an instructor, at least not a good instructor, leaving a student in the dark on purpose but before an instructor tells a student why they're not testing or promoting they would first have to know that the student wants to test or promote in the first place.


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## Buka (May 22, 2020)

To everyone in general and nobody in particular........

Once upon a time people walked into dojos to learn how to fight, to learn how defend themselves, to learn how to get into shape, to just plain learn.

Somehow, somewhere, people running some dojos allowed the people to focus on cloth belts of varying colors that were part of the particular costume worn. And that's exactly what a gi is, it is a costume by the very definition of the word.

When can I test for vermilion belt, I want a new color, WAH, I want a different belt!

For Christ sakes work harder, stop with the focus on when the next belt comes and don't be pussy whipped by the color of what you tie around your waist to keep your gi closed.


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## drop bear (May 22, 2020)

lklawson said:


> that's part of your mistake. There aren't any pitfalls. It's just different things. Might as well discuss the pitfalls between parchment and papyrus. At least that would have some basis.
> 
> Your opinions are another part of the problem. your opinions don't matter about the standards of someone else's system. It's their system. You don't get to say what is good or bad standards in their system. You can talk about your system. That's fine. But you can't apply your standards to someone else's system. There's no "supposed" to be. That's the point.
> 
> Peace favor your sword ( mobile)



Yes. There are better and worse systems and they will have better and worse black belts. 

It is not the individual. It is the system.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 23, 2020)

lklawson said:


> Horsefeathers.  Neither you nor I get to tell some other system what a black belt is "supposed" to mean.  It is supposed to mean whatever they say it means in the context of their system.
> 
> There is no universal meaning to either what a black belt is or is supposed to be.
> 
> ...


It's supposed to mean what I want it to mean._ :stomps foot petulantly:_


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> To everyone in general and nobody in particular........
> 
> Once upon a time people walked into dojos to learn how to fight, to learn how defend themselves, to learn how to get into shape, to just plain learn.


They still do.



Buka said:


> Somehow, somewhere, people running some dojos allowed the people to focus on cloth belts of varying colors that were part of the particular costume worn. And that's exactly what a gi is, it is a costume by the very definition of the word.


Well if you do have belts of different colors in your art and color represents rank at least some students are going to do some focusing on the color of their belt to some extent. 



Buka said:


> When can I test for vermilion belt, I want a new color, WAH, I want a different belt!


Some people are satisfied with the color they've got, for instance an old friend of mine in a martial arts school I used to go to got to brown belt and didn't care to advance any further, he was content with a brown belt. As for me, I don't really care much for progression beyond a black belt, if I get a black belt Im content with that and I don't really care for a different belt of another color. BTW black is not always the highest color depending on the style you train in. 



Buka said:


> For Christ sakes work harder, stop with the focus on when the next belt comes and don't be pussy whipped by the color of what you tie around your waist to keep your gi closed.


I always strive to work harder and I've been that way since day 1 in the martial arts. Also at this point Im not so obsessed with the color of my belt, not with the styles Im training in now. I was going to test for my purple belt in Goju Ryu before the Coronavirus pandemic but now that the pandemic has hit my testing has been suspended indefinitely. Its not a big deal for me, I'll just resume my training at the Goju Ryu school once it opens back up and test for my purple belt when we get around to it.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This is the bottom line, in practical terms.  Unfortunately, those "in charge" may have no respect for what a black belt is supposed to mean, or have a false sense of what proficiency in TMA (in my case, karate) should mean.  This is most likely due to how they were taught.  Their teacher probably had low expectations, and so a downward spiral of quality is passed on.  Or, the guy in charge might just put greed ahead of quality.
> 
> In ideal terms, a black belt should mean that, whatever the style, the student should have 90% of the techniques down pat so they can be used effectively in a real life situation.  This means good control, form, speed, power, balance, flow, timing, tactics and other elements that make the art actually work at a high level.


Well there is no clear cut definition of what a black belt is. The requirements for black belt vary from instructor to instructor. Every school has its own requirements and its own levels of proficiency you need to reach for each belt, including the black belt. There is much variance. 



isshinryuronin said:


> The best way to judge this is to measure yourself against your peers, by observing other schools, or by competition, or ask other teachers to evaluate you.


You're right about competition. The first martial arts school that I started to seriously train at produced students who did really well in tournaments and won lots of medals, so I knew it was a good school, not a "MacDojo" as some people on this forum like to call what they consider junk martial arts schools, and what they've sometimes called my school. 



isshinryuronin said:


> Walk into another school with a white belt, and the fact that you are a black belt should be quickly recognized by your peers.  If not, you may need to re-evaluate the meaning of your black belt and apply yourself to improve.


That would depend on the style you got your black belt in and the style that the other school you walk into teaches. If you went to a school that taught a radically different style it wouldn't be so apparent that you're a black belt in your first style. For instance you said you train in a Karate style of some sort, if you were to go to a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu school I don't think it would be apparent there that you're a black belt in your Karate style even if you are. 



isshinryuronin said:


> Then there are the non-physical elements that IMO should be an integral part of getting a black belt:  Perseverance in overcoming weaknesses, injuries or failures, dedication, some philosophical and historical understanding of the origins of the art, a moral imperative to use the art to aid others, and so on.  These are just a few random thoughts on the subject, hopefully nothing new for most of you.


Well yes, there is the mental aspect as well. That is what part of testing is about, testing is about performance under pressure, which takes a certain amount of mental toughness and fortitude. 



isshinryuronin said:


> A first degree black belt is, indeed, the beginning of the road to mastering one's self and finding the art is richer than one's ego.  Few new black belts are at this stage.  Patience and humility are also things that usually come after that first exhilarating promotion to black as you progress in degrees.  But that's where the real payoff is.


You're right that the black belt is just the beginning. Although as I explained above, that the definition of a black belt student varies tremendously, there is always more to learn.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2020)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> What a black belt really is
> 
> Black Belt Means your a white Belt that didnt quit


So then the difference between a black belt and a white belt is that the black belt didn't quit. 



KenpoMaster805 said:


> Also a black belt is given by the head instructor who deserve it and they have meet their requirements to earn their black belt


And the requirements vary from school to school. Also its not always the head instructor who gives it, every school has its own system of how students are promoted. 



KenpoMaster805 said:


> It will take 5 years or so to earn a black belt if your a quick learner


That depends on the school and the standards they set. Some schools have students who earn black belts in as little as 2 years. Then there are those schools where getting a black belt can take 10 years or more. 



KenpoMaster805 said:


> Yes its true some dont make it to their black belt they either quit or got busy


At least with the schools I've been to I would say most perhaps don't. Martial arts has a high turnover rate.



KenpoMaster805 said:


> As for me im a 3rd brown soon to be 2nd brown on thursday it took me 3 years for my 2nd Brown so i have to up it up a bit to get my 1st brown by december then next year for my black Belt earning a black belt is a must for us that's our goal to be a black belt


Keep up the good work.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's supposed to mean what I want it to mean._ :stomps foot petulantly:_


In your school, yes.


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## Headhunter (Jun 3, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So why is asking when you could test disrespectful?


It's that backward thinking old school nonsense where people still believe nonsense like you can't look an instructor in the eye or you have to shine his shoes before class or clean his toilet or whatever stupid myth instructors brainwash into their students. 

It's not disrespectful in the slightest it's enquiring for your own knowledge of what's happening. I've done it plenty of times

I hear a gradings coming up. End of class I go up to instructor and the conversation goes one of 2 ways

1) me: hey am I good to go for the grading at the next test?

Instructor: yes you are

Me: cool cheers


2) me: hey am I good to go for the grading at the next test?

Instructor: no not this time 

Me:  cool cheers 


Sometimes I wouldn't need to ask because I already knew but when I didn't I asked because......well it's common sense to ask if you don't know something


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 11, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> It's that backward thinking old school nonsense where people still believe nonsense like you can't look an instructor in the eye or you have to shine his shoes before class or clean his toilet or whatever stupid myth instructors brainwash into their students.
> 
> It's not disrespectful in the slightest it's enquiring for your own knowledge of what's happening. I've done it plenty of times
> 
> ...


You make some good points but Im waiting to hear from MJS, I wonder of he still posts here.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> You make some good points but Im waiting to hear from MJS, I wonder of he still posts here.


I haven’t seen him here in a good while.  He may pop in once in a while.

@MJS how are you doing?  What’s happening?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2020)

Nobody can define what a black belt is that would hold for every system or every school out there.

I think the problem is that for a lot of people, rank has become the goal, the prize, the destination.

Instead, it should simply be a mile marker, an evaluation of skill and knowledge along the journey.

As such, I think there is an argument against tests, and against the student being able to decide if they want the rank or not.  Instead, when the teacher decides the student’s skill and knowledge reaches a level of a particular rank, then the instructor simply recognizes that fact and gives the rank.  No need to test for it, as that skill and knowledge is evident in their regular training sessions. And a student does not get to say “oh I’m happy with the rank I already had, I don’t want a higher one”.  Well no, your actual skill and knowledge is higher than that, so we don’t pretend otherwise.  You are now at the next rank.  End of story.

Of course this scenario assumes that class sizes are small enough that the instructor has a meaningful relationship with each student and knows where he/she is in their development.  It also eliminates the huge cash cow of testing fees and all the seminars and bringing in guests to oversee the test and all the extra fees and income that goes along with that.  And for a lot of schools, that won’t fly because their business model depends on it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 11, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> You make some good points but Im waiting to hear from MJS, I wonder of he still posts here.


He hasn't posted in about 3 years...don't think it's likely that you'll get a response from him. Unless maybe he got an email alert from flying crane.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Nobody can define what a black belt is that would hold for every system or every school out there.


Well there is no clear cut definition of what a black belt is, the standards vary from dojo to dojo as to what a student has to do to be a black belt at whatever dojo they train at.



Flying Crane said:


> I think the problem is that for a lot of people, rank has become the goal, the prize, the destination.


Well for some students reaching the rank of black belt is definitely *a *goal, that doesn't mean its *the* goal as in the one and only final goal in the martial arts, no matter what your rank you can always get better, you can always learn more. But for some students it is *a* goal. Not all students might have that goal but some do and there is nothing wrong with that. 

And I've said this before but I would like to point it out again that black is not always the highest belt color depending on the style you train in and the instructor you train under. 



Flying Crane said:


> Instead, it should simply be a mile marker, an evaluation of skill and knowledge along the journey.


Yes, although I believe it is a crucial mile marker to reach if you want to go far in the martial arts, provided that the main style you train in has a black belt. Just my opinion. 



Flying Crane said:


> As such, I think there is an argument against tests, and against the student being able to decide if they want the rank or not.  Instead, when the teacher decides the student’s skill and knowledge reaches a level of a particular rank, then the instructor simply recognizes that fact and gives the rank.  No need to test for it, as that skill and knowledge is evident in their regular training sessions. And a student does not get to say “oh I’m happy with the rank I already had, I don’t want a higher one”.  Well no, your actual skill and knowledge is higher than that, so we don’t pretend otherwise.  You are now at the next rank.  End of story.


That depends on your instructor and whatever system they use for rank advancement. Every school and every instructor has their own system for rank advancement and they vary quite a bit. If you've trained at multiple schools as I have you would know this. 

If you run your own school you can use whatever system you want. 



Flying Crane said:


> Of course this scenario assumes that class sizes are small enough that the instructor has a meaningful relationship with each student and knows where he/she is in their development.  It also eliminates the huge cash cow of testing fees and all the seminars and bringing in guests to oversee the test and all the extra fees and income that goes along with that.  And for a lot of schools, that won’t fly because their business model depends on it.


Well your idea would be harder with a large school and yes schools are businesses because, after all, instructors have to make livings too.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 12, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well there is no clear cut definition of what a black belt is, the standards vary from dojo to dojo as to what a student has to do to be a black belt at whatever dojo they train at.


Yes there is, a black belt is a strip of some material worn around the waist, that is black in color.

A black belt martial artist has a definition as well-it is a martial artist who has earned a rank signified by a strip of cloth worn around the waist, that is black in color.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well there is no clear cut definition of what a black belt is, the standards vary from dojo to dojo as to what a student has to do to be a black belt at whatever dojo they train at.
> 
> 
> Well for some students reaching the rank of black belt is definitely *a *goal, that doesn't mean its *the* goal as in the one and only final goal in the martial arts, no matter what your rank you can always get better, you can always learn more. But for some students it is *a* goal. Not all students might have that goal but some do and there is nothing wrong with that.
> ...


Are you educating me?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> As such, I think there is an argument against tests, and against the student being able to decide if they want the rank or not.  Instead, when the teacher decides the student’s skill and knowledge reaches a level of a particular rank, then the instructor simply recognizes that fact and gives the rank.  No need to test for it, as that skill and knowledge is evident in their regular training sessions. And a student does not get to say “oh I’m happy with the rank I already had, I don’t want a higher one”.  Well no, your actual skill and knowledge is higher than that, so we don’t pretend otherwise.  You are now at the next rank.  End of story.
> 
> Of course this scenario assumes that class sizes are small enough that the instructor has a meaningful relationship with each student and knows where he/she is in their development.  It also eliminates the huge cash cow of testing fees and all the seminars and bringing in guests to oversee the test and all the extra fees and income that goes along with that.  And for a lot of schools, that won’t fly because their business model depends on it.


The issue with this idea comes when a large style or organization comes into play. 

I could have 10 students, and meaningful relationships with all of them. 3 of them go on to teach and have 10 students and meaningful relationships again. But student 1 requires a higher level of expertise before a certain rank (let's go with BB) than student 2, because he feels that's where he was at when he earned BB. Student 3 thinks he was at a lower ability level than both, so he gives BB at a lower expertise level than all of them. Now a student of Student 3 goes to train at Student 1's school, and is being expected to keep up with a pace that he is not at, and given less instruction, because the people at the school see his rank and assume his level. Then either don't realize it, which is a disservice to the student, or they figure it out, and everyone is just scratching their heads trying to figure out what's going on.

If instead I had set up a test for all my students to take, when student's 1 2 and 3 branch off, they have concrete criteria for someone earning black belt-they have to be able to perform x, y and z, do 30 of a punch in b time, and understand concept's c and d. Possibly also be able to teach up to green belt and have positive feedback from their students. Now if someone from student 3 goes to student 1's classes, there's no wasting time trying to figure out his skill level, and he can jump right in.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 12, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The issue with this idea comes when a large style or organization comes into play.
> 
> I could have 10 students, and meaningful relationships with all of them. 3 of them go on to teach and have 10 students and meaningful relationships again. But student 1 requires a higher level of expertise before a certain rank (let's go with BB) than student 2, because he feels that's where he was at when he earned BB. Student 3 thinks he was at a lower ability level than both, so he gives BB at a lower expertise level than all of them. Now a student of Student 3 goes to train at Student 1's school, and is being expected to keep up with a pace that he is not at, and given less instruction, because the people at the school see his rank and assume his level. Then either don't realize it, which is a disservice to the student, or they figure it out, and everyone is just scratching their heads trying to figure out what's going on.
> 
> If instead I had set up a test for all my students to take, when student's 1 2 and 3 branch off, they have concrete criteria for someone earning black belt-they have to be able to perform x, y and z, do 30 of a punch in b time, and understand concept's c and d. Possibly also be able to teach up to green belt and have positive feedback from their students. Now if someone from student 3 goes to student 1's classes, there's no wasting time trying to figure out his skill level, and he can jump right in.


Well, this gets into another tangent that I have talked about in the past.  There are kind of two parts to my point.

First, why do we need big organizations to oversee people?  Why do (the proverbial) you believe that you are so much wiser to dictate how others teach, or to insist that other teachers maintain a sameness?  In my opinion, there is a lot of needless “empire building” going on and I believe that a lot of the time it is connected to ego.  If you don’t feel you can trust your student to teach to standards that make sense, then don’t give him authority to teach.  If you have given him authority to teach, then you need to be willing to let go of the control, and let him teach as he sees fit.  If there are discrepancies between the standards that your students uphold, well so what?  You can’t control everything in life.   Sometimes ya gotta be able to let go.

The second point I make is that all the higher dan rankings that establish teacher levels are nonsense.  I honestly believe that there ought to be two levels of black belt, and that is it.  The first is black belt, non-teacher.  This is based purely on skill.  The second is black belt, with teaching authority.  This person can teach and promote, all the way up to teacher rank.  These two designations could be given simultaneously, or one might feel that a person merits the rank based on skill, but needs some further guidance to become an effective teacher.  Ok, then the ranks are done, no more chasing rank.  If someone at that level craves more rank, then he doesn’t deserve the rank he has.    And it’s time to let go of control, and let that new teacher make his own choices in teaching.

This does not mean that there isn’t room to acknowledge those who are more experienced and have more to teach.  A teacher can still learn and develop, and ought to respect and acknowledge his lineage and those who taught him.   But new rankings are done, no more carrots to chase, and no micro-managing and empire building.  And none of this nonsense of, well I’m 5th dan and I can only promote to two dan grades below me, nonsense, except for the egomaniac who promoted himself to 10th dan and does whatever he wants.  

But, I digress.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 12, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yes there is, a black belt is a strip of some material worn around the waist, that is black in color.
> 
> A black belt martial artist has a definition as well-it is a martial artist who has earned a rank signified by a strip of cloth worn around the waist, that is black in color.


Im talking about the rank of first degree black belt, not the physical belt that serves as a symbol of the rank, that should be obvious enough.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Are you educating me?


Apparently so.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, this gets into another tangent that I have talked about in the past.  There are kind of two parts to my point.
> 
> First, why do we need big organizations to oversee people?  Why do (the proverbial) you believe that you are so much wiser to dictate how others teach, or to insist that other teachers maintain a sameness?  In my opinion, there is a lot of needless “empire building” going on and I believe that a lot of the time it is connected to ego.  If you don’t feel you can trust your student to teach to standards that make sense, then don’t give him authority to teach.  If you have given him authority to teach, then you need to be willing to let go of the control, and let him teach as he sees fit.  If there are discrepancies between the standards that your students uphold, well so what?  You can’t control everything in life.   Sometimes ya gotta be able to let go.



Organizations do make certain things easier. In my above example, with my students branching out, it's not necessarily even a direct organization. But they learn the same style, so it's easier if someone moves and wants to continue training in that style to pick up where they left off by having an actual curriculum. Not necessary, but can definitely help.



> The second point I make is that all the higher dan rankings that establish teacher levels are nonsense.  I honestly believe that there ought to be two levels of black belt, and that is it.  The first is black belt, non-teacher.  This is based purely on skill.  The second is black belt, with teaching authority.  This person can teach and promote, all the way up to teacher rank.  These two designations could be given simultaneously, or one might feel that a person merits the rank based on skill, but needs some further guidance to become an effective teacher.  Ok, then the ranks are done, no more chasing rank.  If someone at that level craves more rank, then he doesn’t deserve the rank he has.    And it’s time to let go of control, and let that new teacher make his own choices in teaching.
> 
> This does not mean that there isn’t room to acknowledge those who are more experienced and have more to teach.  A teacher can still learn and develop, and ought to respect and acknowledge his lineage and those who taught him.   But new rankings are done, no more carrots to chase, and no micro-managing and empire building.  And none of this nonsense of, well I’m 5th dan and I can only promote to two dan grades below me, nonsense, except for the egomaniac who promoted himself to 10th dan and does whatever he wants.
> 
> But, I digress.


This is something I've thought a bit about, and essentially my response is that black belt is pretty arbitrary (aka the initial point of this thread lol). So you comparing ranks up to black belt might be the same as my ranks after black belt. So what you consider a brown belt might be my 3rd degree black, and as their still learning and improving their abilities there's still a differentiation there. If you view black belt as mastery, then I agree with you, but not everyone does.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 12, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Im talking about the rank of first degree black belt, not the physical belt that serves as a symbol of the rank, that should be obvious enough.


I was making a joke, with the first part. The second part was my actual reply.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Are you educating me?



Reality checking at the very least. We all need it to stay relative.


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## drop bear (Jun 12, 2020)

Happiness vs fulfillment.

The idea of a belt system is that it is more important than your current desire for happiness.

Want to be happy? Then sleep in eat the pizza.

Want that black belt? Then go drag your *** out of bed and train.

If the second option makes you a better person as well as a black belt then the system works. Wear that belt with pride because you have earned it.

If there is a massive organization that also recognizes your achievement so much the better.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 13, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I was making a joke, with the first part. The second part was my actual reply.


Alright well in regards to your second part, even then the definition varies tremendously as the skill level and any other requirements needed to earn the rank varies tremendously from school to school.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 13, 2020)

Headhunter said:


> It's that backward thinking old school nonsense where people still believe nonsense like you can't look an instructor in the eye or you have to shine his shoes before class or clean his toilet or whatever stupid myth instructors brainwash into their students.



I agree with your entire post, *except *for your "old school nonsense" reference.  It is nonsense, but it is not old school.  What you describe is an idiotic egomaniac taking advantage of his students.  Old school sensei are humble and respect their students.  Asking students to help clean their own school is not out of line.  They should have a sense of ownership and belonging in regards to their dojo - an _esprit di_ _corps.  _Done properly, the students learn humility, respect and responsibility, not only to the dojo, but each other as well.  It was once the purview and initiative of the senior students to organize such an activity, much as an army company sergeant would take it upon himself to have the recruits police the barrack area.  Of course, there were sad exceptions to the rule, but by and large, "old school" ways and sensei were a positive force for the student.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 14, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The second point I make is that all the higher dan rankings that establish teacher levels are nonsense. I honestly believe that there ought to be two levels of black belt, and that is it. The first is black belt, non-teacher. This is based purely on skill. The second is black belt, with teaching authority. This person can teach and promote, all the way up to teacher rank. These two designations could be given simultaneously, or one might feel that a person merits the rank based on skill, but needs some further guidance to become an effective teacher. Ok, then the ranks are done, no more chasing rank. If someone at that level craves more rank, then he doesn’t deserve the rank he has. And it’s time to let go of control, and let that new teacher make his own choices in teaching.


This is pretty close to what I set up in my curriculum. BB is just a terminal rank. Teaching certification is another thing (indicated by a stripe on the belt). The only difference is I added another level for those who have shown they can train teachers (so are able to promote to teacher), since this is a different skill from teaching the MA (just as teaching MA is a different skill from the MA itself).

Mind you, that's all theoretical. At the rate I'm going, it's unlikely anyone will ever get any of those (including the BB) from me.


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## dvcochran (Jun 15, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> This is pretty close to what I set up in my curriculum. BB is just a terminal rank. Teaching certification is another thing (indicated by a stripe on the belt). The only difference is I added another level for those who have shown they can train teachers (so are able to promote to teacher), since this is a different skill from teaching the MA (just as teaching MA is a different skill from the MA itself).
> 
> Mind you, that's all theoretical. At the rate I'm going, it's unlikely anyone will ever get any of those (including the BB) from me.


Keep swinging brother. 
It is surely strange times right now but I believe we are coming out of it. It will require some modified thinking in the way(s) we train for a while. Within this we may even find some better ways to train and/or reinforce that the old ways are the best ways.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> The second point I make is that all the higher dan rankings that establish teacher levels are nonsense. I honestly believe that there ought to be two levels of black belt, and that is it. The first is black belt, non-teacher. This is based purely on skill. The second is black belt, with teaching authority.


This seems to assume that after black belt, there is no more to learn (except in your method, the ability to teach).  But in many styles and schools there is a lot more to learn after black.  One may go so far to say that black belt is the start of real learning.  While one's physical technique may be excellent at this point, it takes years more to develop the subtle variations of hip movement merging with the hand and the flow of energy throughout the body, and other hard to describe attributes that add to one's ability.  More years to learn the advanced applications of kata, use of weapons, etc.   In my style (in a good school) this learning process continues until 4th or 5th degree black.  After that, degrees acknowledge years of contribution to the style and upholding high ideals.

Some schools may not have much depth after black, but in others there is a lot more to learn.  I didn't really know and (partially) understand my wife until being married for ten years.  We were in love after three years of meeting (that's the 1st degree black)  but real bonding and deep knowing took years.  As the song goes, "Time can do so much."


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 15, 2020)

A black belt is not something you have, a black belt is something you are.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 15, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This seems to assume that after black belt, there is no more to learn (except in your method, the ability to teach).  But in many styles and schools there is a lot more to learn after black.  One may go so far to say that black belt is the start of real learning.  While one's physical technique may be excellent at this point, it takes years more to develop the subtle variations of hip movement merging with the hand and the flow of energy throughout the body, and other hard to describe attributes that add to one's ability.  More years to learn the advanced applications of kata, use of weapons, etc.   In my style (in a good school) this learning process continues until 4th or 5th degree black.  After that, degrees acknowledge years of contribution to the style and upholding high ideals.
> 
> Some schools may not have much depth after black, but in others there is a lot more to learn.  I didn't really know and (partially) understand my wife until being married for ten years.  We were in love after three years of meeting (that's the 1st degree black)  but real bonding and deep knowing took years.  As the song goes, "Time can do so much."


Ive made no such assumptions at all.  Of course there is more to learn and more growth to be had.  I believe I had acknowledged that there are seniors to be recognized, people who have more to teach.  But the chasing of rank can come to an end.  There is no further need for it.  And likewise, there is no need for highly experienced folks to remain beholden and subordinate forever.  There comes a time when people are ready to walk on their own two feet and make their own decisions and pursue their own vision.  Even when there is still more to learn and more growth to be had.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 15, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive made no such assumptions at all.  Of course there is more to learn and more growth to be had.  I believe I had acknowledged that there are seniors to be recognized, people who have more to teach.  But the chasing of rank can come to an end.  There is no further need for it.  And likewise, there is no need for highly experienced folks to remain beholden and subordinate forever.  There comes a time when people are ready to walk on their own two feet and make their own decisions and pursue their own vision.  Even when there is still more to learn and more growth to be had.



Don't really see how this affects giving progressive degrees of black belt.  Chasing rank is not a factor.  That should be over at 1st degree.  But the acquisition of knowledge and further skill is still pursued.  Degrees within a style llow one to recognize, seek out, and respect one who has progressed further.  This is not remaining beholden and subordinate.  As a mid level black belt of seasoned years I make my own decisions of what to learn and teach, and how to do it. 

IMO, degrees of black belt are useful.  I agree with most of what you say, but don't see the downside to degrees of black as you do.  I just accept my knowledge and rank and don't obsess over it.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 15, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Don't really see how this affects giving progressive degrees of black belt.  Chasing rank is not a factor.  That should be over at 1st degree.  But the acquisition of knowledge and further skill is still pursued.  Degrees within a style llow one to recognize, seek out, and respect one who has progressed further.  This is not remaining beholden and subordinate.  As a mid level black belt of seasoned years I make my own decisions of what to learn and teach, and how to do it.
> 
> IMO, degrees of black belt are useful.  I agree with most of what you say, but don't see the downside to degrees of black as you do.  I just accept my knowledge and rank and don't obsess over it.


Fair enough, a difference of opinion.  

I am sure there are some organizations that do a better job than others in keeping it all in perspective.  But overall I would see the elimination or significant reduction in dan ranks as a step in a positive direction.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Don't really see how this affects giving progressive degrees of black belt.  Chasing rank is not a factor.  That should be over at 1st degree.  But the acquisition of knowledge and further skill is still pursued.  Degrees within a style llow one to recognize, seek out, and respect one who has progressed further.  This is not remaining beholden and subordinate.  As a mid level black belt of seasoned years I make my own decisions of what to learn and teach, and how to do it.
> 
> IMO, degrees of black belt are useful.  I agree with most of what you say, but don't see the downside to degrees of black as you do.  I just accept my knowledge and rank and don't obsess over it.


I agree with this, where the association doesn't get too wrapped up in hierarchy. I've been part of groups where those ranks mattered far more than was useful, and have seen organizations where they truly were apparently just honorary (so served the useful purpose of recognition, without the downside I saw elsewhere).

I think it might be useful to have them in larger organizations to create a sort of "phone tree" for disseminating ideas in both directions. If you're the higher-ranking person in my "branch", then you pass along to me what you get directly from the organization, and I pass along to you the ideas I want them to get from me. Where that facilitates exchange (by keeping the top of the organization from getting flooded with direct input from too many people), that's useful. Of course, it can also create too much of a gap between those running the organization and those starting new schools.

But nothing's perfect.


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## jobo (Jun 16, 2020)

my view of what a blackbelt should be, hasnt changed much since i was 14 though my appreciation of what a black belt commonly is has changed drastically

in short a black belt SHOULD be an exceptional athlete much skilled at fighting, even if age diminishes that, they were at the point of issue such

my experiences of tangling with back belts under the age of 50( some considerably under that age) has changed that to a lot of them being far from being athletes let alone exceptional ones whos skills in practical applications are some what lacking

Now i appreciate that people who go on a MA journey need to progress and at some point they will arrive at black belt with out become exceptional, and they feel a sense of achievement, that i dont want to deprive them off

BUT, i dont want to be a blackbelt as the whole thing has been badly tainted and i will never reach the standard of excellence that i think it should be associated with, it. so it would be largely a hollow achievement and a lie, to my perspective


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 17, 2020)

IMO, a black belt is a person who can continue to develop his MA skill without a teacher.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

Black belts may or may not know what they're doing, depending upon who you ask.


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## dvcochran (Jun 17, 2020)

Grade is totally style/school dependent. Some styles take a couple of years or longer to get to mid color belt. In some styles you can reach 1st Dan in 2 years. So it is a very much moving target that cannot be qualified in a singular notion.
FWIW, I will give ALL schools/styles enough credit to believe the vast majority of BB's know what they are doing within the confines of what they have trained. There is stupid in all walks of life so there will be outliers.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 17, 2020)

jobo said:


> BUT, i dont want to be a blackbelt as the whole thing has been badly tainted and i will never reach the standard of excellence that i think it should be associated with, it. so it would be largely a hollow achievement and a lie, to my perspective


I agree that the "black belt thing has been tainted," but not to the total extreme level you state.  There are many solid schools (but not enough) that have a standard of excellence both you and I would expect in a black belt - several posters on this site are products of such schools, especially in TMA with long lineages and history of true experts.  Unfortunately, the non-unified nature of karate, with multiple and fragmented factions, allows for a wide variation of quality.  In the end, quality of black belts has to be judged on a school by school basis.  I appreciate your perspective, though I believe it to be biased.  I don't consider my rank a hollow achievement.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Grade is totally style/school dependent. Some styles take a couple of years or longer to get to mid color belt. In some styles you can reach 1st Dan in 2 years. So it is a very much moving target that cannot be qualified in a singular notion.
> FWIW, I will give ALL schools/styles enough credit to believe the vast majority of BB's know what they are doing within the confines of what they have trained. There is stupid in all walks of life so there will be outliers.


A black belt could be anything from an "advanced beginner" to a bona fide expert.  Some styles done even expect the black belts to proficient in the full range of the art.  There are schools or styles that will award a black belt in less than a year.  It's really all over the map. I for one, would not presume that a black belt knows squat unless they train in a competitive style where rank equals competitive bracket.


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## Steve (Jun 17, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I agree that the "black belt thing has been tainted," but not to the total extreme level you state.  There are many solid schools (but not enough) that have a standard of excellence both you and I would expect in a black belt - several posters on this site are products of such schools, especially in TMA with long lineages and history of true experts.  Unfortunately, the non-unified nature of karate, with multiple and fragmented factions, allows for a wide variation of quality.  In the end, quality of black belts has to be judged on a school by school basis.  I appreciate your perspective, though I believe it to be biased.  I don't consider my rank a hollow achievement.


Tainted is a loaded term.  I think it's just that any style that doesn't compete lacks calibration.  So belts become a retention tool, rather than a performance metric.  That's not a judgement.  Schools are businesses and I respect the need to keep the lights on.  That doesn't mean one should be naive.  You still need to know what you are actually learning to do.  If it's not to fight, that's okay, provided you don't get into a fight.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 21, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> He hasn't posted in about 3 years...don't think it's likely that you'll get a response from him. Unless maybe he got an email alert from flying crane.


Apparently his most recent post was in February this year.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I agree that the "black belt thing has been tainted," but not to the total extreme level you state.  There are many solid schools (but not enough) that have a standard of excellence both you and I would expect in a black belt - several posters on this site are products of such schools, especially in TMA with long lineages and history of true experts.  Unfortunately, the non-unified nature of karate, with multiple and fragmented factions, allows for a wide variation of quality.  In the end, quality of black belts has to be judged on a school by school basis.  I appreciate your perspective, though I believe it to be biased.  I don't consider my rank a hollow achievement.


 well are you a super fit killing machine, were you such when the belt was awarded ? if the answer to both of these is no and your belt has been awarded for sticking around long enough, its still something youve achieved, like when they give dance medals to the handicapped kids,


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 21, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Apparently his most recent post was in February this year.


He was last seen in February of this year. Meaning he logged onto the site at that time. His last post was November 15, 2017.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 21, 2020)

jobo said:


> well are you a super fit killing machine, were you such when the belt was awarded ? if the answer to both of these is no and your belt has been awarded for sticking around long enough, its still something youve achieved, like when they give dance medals to the handicapped kids,


This post is non responsive and unrelated to what you quoted.  Your premise that if you are not a "super fit killing machine" your black belt is nothing more than a participation medal is ridiculous.  It only reinforces how biased you are to TMA.  Perhaps you are just projecting some feelings of inadequacies?  Or, maybe being such a killing machine yourself, you have little regard of us lesser beings.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 21, 2020)

Chris Parker said:


> you might train for years and years in Shito Ryu, and get a Shodan there... but if you walk into, say, my school, you're a white belt. Same if you walk into a Judo school. Or a Wing Chun one. Or Iaido. Or another form of karate.


Well that's beside the point. The important thing for me was earning a black belt at the Judo Karate Center, the school that I was attending at the time. The fact that Im a white belt in other schools is irrelevant. I don't care if Im a white belt at other schools and as a matter of fact, if I were to start training at some other school and start learning some brand new style I would want to start at white belt anyway (or whatever belt they start with.) The thing is, earning a black belt at the Judo Karate Center was a very important goal for me, a goal that once achieved I could feel good about, and I could feel good about myself.


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## jobo (Jun 21, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This post is non responsive and unrelated to what you quoted.  Your premise that if you are not a "super fit killing machine" your black belt is nothing more than a participation medal is ridiculous.  It only reinforces how biased you are to TMA.  Perhaps you are just projecting some feelings of inadequacies?  Or, maybe being such a killing machine yourself, you have little regard of us lesser beings.


im not biased against TMA ,i do TMA, nor any more a super-fit killing machine. how ever i made my feelings clear in my opening post, i wouldn't accept a blackbelt, that was awarded to any lessor a mortal than that, because it most certainly is a participation ''medal'' you know it deep down, every one else knows it  as well. but participation is an achievement so well done on that


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2020)

jobo said:


> im not biased against TMA ,i do TMA, nor any more a super-fit killing machine. how ever i made my feelings clear in my opening post, i wouldn't accept a blackbelt, that was awarded to any lessor a mortal than that, because it most certainly is a participation ''medal'' you know it deep down, every one else knows it  as well. but participation is an achievement so well done on that


A black belt.. really any kind of certification... CAN be diluted to the point that it is functionally a participation ribbon.  But a black belt, like all certifications, is really an endorsement.  The value of the endorsement depends largely on the credibility of the institution giving the endorsement. So, a black belt in BJJ means more to me than a black belt in ninjitsu.  Because BJJ rankings are more credible across the board.  AND, a black belt awarded by some BJJ black belts means more than other BJJ black belts.  Because it's an endorsement.  You say you have a black belt from Rickson Gracie?  Damn.  Versus a black belt from Marcelo Monteiro?  Hmmm...  maybe...  Versus, you have a black belt from Generic Ninja? Yikes.

It's the same with any certification.  Having a degree represents the effort of getting that degree.  A degree in general means something.  A degree from MIT is more valuable than a degree from the University of Idaho, which in turn probably carries more value than a degree from the University of Phoenix online.

The key is to be familiar with who is awarding the grade.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve said:


> A black belt.. really any kind of certification... CAN be diluted to the point that it is functionally a participation ribbon.  But a black belt, like all certifications, is really an endorsement.  The value of the endorsement depends largely on the credibility of the institution giving the endorsement. So, a black belt in BJJ means more to me than a black belt in ninjitsu.  Because BJJ rankings are more credible across the board.  AND, a black belt awarded by some BJJ black belts means more than other BJJ black belts.  Because it's an endorsement.  You say you have a black belt from Rickson Gracie?  Damn.  Versus a black belt from Marcelo Monteiro?  Hmmm...  maybe...  Versus, you have a black belt from Generic Ninja? Yikes.
> 
> It's the same with any certification.  Having a degree represents the effort of getting that degree.  A degree in general means something.  A degree from MIT is more valuable than a degree from the University of Idaho, which in turn probably carries more value than a degree from the University of Phoenix online.
> 
> The key is to be familiar with who is awarding the grade.


i dont know about the value of degrees, it may be more prestigious, but if that converts into more value in the job market is debatable

my nephew got his degree and masters at Manchester university,( really looked down on by university snobs)his phd at London uni( a bit better)and mow researches/lectures at the most prestigious of English universities, a university that turned him down for study there, a job he got mid stiff competition from people who had studded there

so even Cambridge dont rate Cambridge degrees that highly


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2020)

jobo said:


> i dont know about the value of degrees, it may be more prestigious, but if that converts into more value in the job market is debatable


For sure it does.





> my nephew got his degree and masters at Manchester university,( really looked down on by university snobs)his phd at London uni( a bit better)and mow researches/lectures at the most prestigious of English universities, a university that turned him down for study there, a job he got mid stiff competition from people who had studded there
> 
> so even Cambridge dont rate Cambridge degrees that highly


There are always folks who succeed on their own merits outside of endorsements.  Don't confuse one with the other.  The former is intrinsic to the person.  The latter is external.  Think of it like this, the degree from Cambridge gets you a look.  In other words, the degree doesn't get you the job. It gets you the interview.

But let's not get too far afield here. The points isn't jobs and hiring practices.  It's simply the idea that any certification is simply an endorsement. It's some person or institution saying that you meet the requirements for this certificate. Nothing more or less.  The certificate is a shorthand for the requirements. You're a master carpenter. That means X, Y, and Z. If you are a master carpenter, that means you are those things.  If you aren't a master carpenter, can you be familiar with X, Y, and/or Z? Sure, but you'll have to demonstrate that expertise some other way. You don't have the institutional endorsement certifying your proficiency in those areas.

Fortunately, martial arts don't mandate any certifications, so unlike regulated trades and such, there is always room for an individual to just make **** up. 

Edit:  Just to add, the endorsement may be very concrete, but the value of the certificate can be subjective based on the biases and familiarity of the person evaluating the certificate. For example, a person who is unfamiliar with martial arts may see no difference between a black belt in BJJ or in Ninjutsu.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2020)

Steve said:


> For sure it does.There are always folks who succeed on their own merits outside of endorsements.  Don't confuse one with the other.  The former is intrinsic to the person.  The latter is external.  Think of it like this, the degree from Cambridge gets you a look.  In other words, the degree doesn't get you the job. It gets you the interview.
> 
> But let's not get too far afield here. The points isn't jobs and hiring practices.  It's simply the idea that any certification is simply an endorsement. It's some person or institution saying that you meet the requirements for this certificate. Nothing more or less.  The certificate is a shorthand for the requirements. You're a master carpenter. That means X, Y, and Z. If you are a master carpenter, that means you are those things.  If you aren't a master carpenter, can you be familiar with X, Y, and/or Z? Sure, but you'll have to demonstrate that expertise some other way. You don't have the institutional endorsement certifying your proficiency in those areas.
> 
> Fortunately, martial arts don't mandate any certifications, so unlike regulated trades and such, there is always room for an individual to just make **** up.


depends who is short listing, if im short listing then people with a degree from oxford or Cambridge get there application accidentally knocked in to the bin, there is such a thing as inverted snobbery as well


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2020)

jobo said:


> depends who is short listing, if im short listing then people with a degree from oxford or Cambridge get there application accidentally knocked in to the bin, there is such a thing as inverted snobbery as well


Agreed.  I think you might have posted this while I was editing my post to add that while the endorsement may be very concrete, the value of the certificate can be subjective based on the biases and familiarity of the person evaluating the certificate. By "biases" I mean exactly the kind of snobbery you're talking about.


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## dvcochran (Jun 22, 2020)

There is a general common sense quotient here. If I am looking for someone with technical skills an arts degree is mostly meaningless. However, an argument can be made that anyone who has put in the time to earn a degree has attributable skills. 
When interviewing, a degree is only one part of the equation. Where the degree was earned is much less important in the technical fields since the majority of the skills needed are learned post education anyway. 
I suppose it could carry more weight in legal/government or medical fields.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> There is a general common sense quotient here. If I am looking for someone with technical skills an arts degree is mostly meaningless. However, an argument can be made that anyone who has put in the time to earn a degree has attributable skills.
> When interviewing, a degree is only one part of the equation. Where the degree was earned is much less important in the technical fields since the majority of the skills needed are learned post education anyway.
> I suppose it could carry more weight in legal/government or medical fields.


 thats moving the point of the discussion, degrees in different field are not at all equal, even on the basis of people ability to learn and apply themselves.

and theres a considerable number of topics for which gainful employment in an area associated with your degree is very very unlikely unless you choose to teach the subject

art history for instance will have you doing tours of art galleries to disinterested kids or working in a call centre, there is just not the demand that there is for scientist or engineers and science or engineering degrees are a lot harder to come by, than the airy fairy humanities degrees where is largely impossible to be wrong


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2020)

Steve said:


> A black belt.. really any kind of certification... CAN be diluted to the point that it is functionally a participation ribbon.  But a black belt, like all certifications, is really an endorsement.  The value of the endorsement depends largely on the credibility of the institution giving the endorsement. So, a black belt in BJJ means more to me than a black belt in ninjitsu.  Because BJJ rankings are more credible across the board.  AND, a black belt awarded by some BJJ black belts means more than other BJJ black belts.  Because it's an endorsement.  You say you have a black belt from Rickson Gracie?  Damn.  Versus a black belt from Marcelo Monteiro?  Hmmm...  maybe...  Versus, you have a black belt from Generic Ninja? Yikes.
> 
> It's the same with any certification.  Having a degree represents the effort of getting that degree.  A degree in general means something.  A degree from MIT is more valuable than a degree from the University of Idaho, which in turn probably carries more value than a degree from the University of Phoenix online.
> 
> *The key is to be familiar with who is awarding the grade.*


Exactly. Anybody with about $10 can get a black belt by buying one, martial arts stores sell them over the counter or through the mail, so getting a black belt doesn't automatically mean all that much, it all depends on what you had to do to get it. That's why I would only want to be awarded the rank that's represented by a black belt at a school where you had to earn it, where you have to meet high standards to get it. That was why getting a black belt at the Judo Karate Center was so important to me. 

Buying a black belt over the internet as Dirty Dog has suggested or having one mailed to me as Ballen0351 has suggested would obviously not be the same thing, besides the Judo Karate Center does not give, sell, or mail you belts that you haven't earned, except for the white belt that comes with the uniform you buy when you first join. 

Getting a black belt at the Jiu Jitsu school I go to now, or at the Goju Ryu school I go to now would also mean quite a bit, otherwise I wouldn't be going to those schools. While someday getting black belts at those schools would be nice right now Im mostly interested in just learning the material and developing skill, which I would obviously have to do if I want to earn belts.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 19, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say that if the rank is your goal, then there is a problem.
> My goal is to develop my physical abilities and intellectual understanding of my art as far as I can. If that means I get a new belt with some snazzy embroidery on it, then fine. But I don't test to get a belt or a certificate, or whatever.


Developing physical abilities and intellectual understanding is great but how do you know you're developing them the way you're supposed to according to your instructor? That's where rank comes in. 

For instance, you could have a really good front kick but lets say your round kick needs work. Your instructor might be holding you back in rank advancement because he wants you to develop your round kick more. You could keep working on your front kick to make it even better but if you don't also improve your round kick you will never advance in rank, no matter how good you get your front kick. 

So if you advance in rank that's because you're developing your abilities the way your instructor wants you to which is important because the instructor knows better than you, that's what makes him the instructor and you the student. So that's why I see rank advancement as important, because that way I know Im developing my abilities the way my instructor says I should.


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## dvcochran (Jul 19, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Developing physical abilities and intellectual understanding is great but how do you know you're developing them the way you're supposed to according to your instructor? That's where rank comes in.
> 
> For instance, you could have a really good front kick but lets say your round kick needs work. Your instructor might be holding you back in rank advancement because he wants you to develop your round kick more. You could keep working on your front kick to make it even better but if you don't also improve your round kick you will never advance in rank, no matter how good you get your front kick.
> 
> So if you advance in rank that's because you're developing your abilities the way your instructor wants you to which is important because the instructor knows better than you, that's what makes him the instructor and you the student. So that's why I see rank advancement as important, because that way I know Im developing my abilities the way my instructor says I should.


This speaks to the fact that both promotion and/or advancement in all MA's is rules bound. Skills and bits of knowledge are presented and the student has to become proficient in them to move forward. How 'moving forward' is perceived and acknowledged is where things are different person to person, style to style, school to school. And there are a plethora factors that affect this dynamic.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Developing physical abilities and intellectual understanding is great but how do you know you're developing them the way you're supposed to according to your instructor? That's where rank comes in.
> 
> For instance, you could have a really good front kick but lets say your round kick needs work. Your instructor might be holding you back in rank advancement because he wants you to develop your round kick more. You could keep working on your front kick to make it even better but if you don't also improve your round kick you will never advance in rank, no matter how good you get your front kick.
> 
> So if you advance in rank that's because you're developing your abilities the way your instructor wants you to which is important because the instructor knows better than you, that's what makes him the instructor and you the student. So that's why I see rank advancement as important, because that way I know Im developing my abilities the way my instructor says I should.


Ive found that the various discussions that happen in the context of training get the message across.  You don’t need a belt to tell you that.  In fact, the belt can’t talk to you.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> This speaks to the fact that both promotion and/or advancement in all MA's is rules bound. Skills and bits of knowledge are presented and the student has to become proficient in them to move forward. How 'moving forward' is perceived and acknowledged is where things are different person to person, style to style, school to school. And there are a plethora factors that affect this dynamic.


True, every school has its own rules and its own standards for rank advancement, but if its a school that I've put my time and commitment into then its that particular school's rules and standards that I'm concerned with meeting if I want to earn rank.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 19, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ive found that the various discussions that happen in the context of training get the message across.  You don’t need a belt to tell you that.  In fact, the belt can’t talk to you.


Of course the belt can't talk and of course its not the belt that tells you that you've met certain standards, its the instructor who tells you that by awarding you the belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 19, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> Of course the belt can't talk and of course its not the belt that tells you that you've met certain standards, its the instructor who tells you that by awarding you the belt.


While I personally like belt ranking systems better than other alternatives, there are certainly other ways to communicate that to students. I pretty much have to do that all the time, because it takes so long to get to each rank with me (I've never had anyone get their first earned rank in less than a year). If the belt/promotion was the only thing that told them they're on track, my students would be wandering aimlessly for a year or two at a time.

To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong: the promotion does help communicate that. I'm just asserting that systems without belts and ranks probably do as good a job as systems that have them, when it comes to communicating progress.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> While I personally like belt ranking systems better than other alternatives, there are certainly other ways to communicate that to students. I pretty much have to do that all the time, because it takes so long to get to each rank with me (I've never had anyone get their first earned rank in less than a year). If the belt/promotion was the only thing that told them they're on track, my students would be wandering aimlessly for a year or two at a time.
> 
> To be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong: the promotion does help communicate that. I'm just asserting that systems without belts and ranks probably do as good a job as systems that have them, when it comes to communicating progress.


So your system sounds much like Gracie Jiu Jitsu in terms of how long it takes to go up a belt. In my school where I do Gracie Jiu Jitsu it takes about two years to get a higher belt although you do get stripes on your belt in between. Some Jiu Jitsu schools use stripes some don't. 

And yes an instructor can obviously let a student know they're doing a good job in other ways besides awarding them belts, simple compliments and praises serve that purpose, but its different when an instructor says a student is good enough to go up a belt, that's making a special statement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2020)

PhotonGuy said:


> So your system sounds much like Gracie Jiu Jitsu in terms of how long it takes to go up a belt. In my school where I do Gracie Jiu Jitsu it takes about two years to get a higher belt although you do get stripes on your belt in between. Some Jiu Jitsu schools use stripes some don't.
> 
> And yes an instructor can obviously let a student know they're doing a good job in other ways besides awarding them belts, simple compliments and praises serve that purpose, but its different when an instructor says a student is good enough to go up a belt, that's making a special statement.


I’m not sure there’s such a big difference in most cases. For me - and I suspect for a lot of the folks I trained with - the promotion was just a gateway to the next bit of the curriculum. 

As to those tips in Gracie JJ, those serve much as a rank promotion, just with fewer belt changes.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I’m not sure there’s such a big difference in most cases. For me - and I suspect for a lot of the folks I trained with - the promotion was just a gateway to the next bit of the curriculum.
> 
> As to those tips in Gracie JJ, those serve much as a rank promotion, just with fewer belt changes.


Depending on the style a promotion often is a gateway to the next bit of the curriculum. For instance in a Karate style when you go up a belt you might learn new techniques and/or a new kata.

In Gracie JJ, at least where I do it, when you get promoted you aren't exposed to any material that you wouldn't be exposed to had you not promoted, classes are the same regardless of the student's ranks and lower ranking students are shown the same stuff as higher ranking students. A higher rank means you've developed more skill, it also means you've been exposed to more material than lower ranking students not because the lower ranking student is excluded from the material but because you've been there longer and thus have learned more. 

And as I've said, not all schools use stripes, and not all belts have stripes depending on the school. At my school the brown belt does not have stripes.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 26, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> He was last seen in February of this year. Meaning he logged onto the site at that time. His last post was November 15, 2017.


Well I hope MJS would make more posts, I want answers from him.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

Belts are Traditional.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 3, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Belts are Traditional.



Can you define "traditional" in this sense?


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

Chris Parker said:


> Can you define "traditional" in this sense?



Traditional: i.e old sifu to young student. if it's not homegrown or organic in lineage (NOT mainstream), if privately taught and exclusive, why include a belt unless you want to branch out and don't really care about quality.


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## dvcochran (Aug 3, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Traditional: i.e old sifu to young student. if it's not homegrown or organic in lineage (NOT mainstream), if privately taught and exclusive, why include a belt unless you want to branch out and don't really care about quality.


I am guessing you have not been in a large(r) school.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am guessing you have not been in a large(r) school.



Well what does traditional mean then if not about sifu-student. Maybere there is something else.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Traditional: i.e old sifu to young student. if it's not homegrown or organic in lineage (NOT mainstream), if privately taught and exclusive, why include a belt unless you want to branch out and don't really care about quality.



Okay, cool, thanks for that. Small history lesson for you... as well as an overview of what ranking was actually designed to be, largely from a Japanese point of view (considering that's where "belt ranks", "black belt" etc all come from... Chinese systems that you're referencing will be included, but to a far lesser degree... hopefully you'll see why).

Let's start by looking at the various forms of rank, and how they have been developed, what they represent, and why they are applied. In essence, there are three approaches that can be considered "rank" (although technically only two are... they other is more akin to a title, which is linked to, but not actually, rank itself). These are Menkyo (licensing), Dan-i (level-development), and Shogo (title).

The first (oldest) of these forms is Menkyo. This form of ranking is common in classical arts (Koryu), and in it's simplest sense, a method of licensing students at various stages in their progress in a school, to ensure that there is consistency in the transmission of the information and methods. While this concept varied in execution from system to system, with more or less licences gained, and differing levels of authority allotted at various levels (for example, some systems would give teaching authority at a mid-licence point, others earlier, and others only when achieving the full licence level), the basic idea was the same; a student entered a school, and over time would be awarded a junior, then middle, then high level licence, eventually a full licence, indicating that the student has learnt all the lessons of the school.

So what does this ranking mean? A Menkyo licence indicates the level to which a student has progressed through an education... it can be seen as similar to graduating from various levels of schooling; kindergarten, primary school, high school, university, post-graduate, PhD doctorate. The advantage is that one can get a sense of the level of education (in a school) that a person has attained... but their application of that knowledge is not guaranteed. To put it another way, two people who have graduated from the same university aren't necessarily going to have the same ability to put their education into effect... which takes us to the second major approach to rank...

Our second form of ranking is the most commonly thought of when discussing this topic, and is known as Dan-i ranking. This is a modern form of rank, originating in the Kodokan (Judo) in the late 19th Century, and is represented by a number of coloured belts in most cases. This approach to rank divides itself into two major groupings, kyu (student) grades, and Dan (senior - literally: levels) grades, each then further subdivided into a number of degrees, counting down for kyu grades, and back up for Dan. While it's not uncommon to have 10 subdivisions each, there really is no standard, and is dependent on the organisational body in question. Unlike a Menkyo system, though, the progress through the ranks here are less about knowing the systems syllabus, and is instead about applicable skills. It's original application in Judo is based on the performance of the individual in competitive bouts, and once you have reached the first of the Dan ranks, you have often learnt the vast majority of the curriculum and methods of the school in question... in fact, by Sandan (third dan), you've reached the virtual pinnacle of technical knowledge, and from that point onwards, most rank is tied to the practitioners contribution to Judo itself.

Over the course of the beginning to middle of the twentieth century, this became almost the "standard" of having standards... being widely adopted by pretty much all modern martial arts, whether Japanese or not. Karate (Okinawan), Tae Kwon-do (Korean), and more have all adopted the idea of coloured belts divided up into kyu and dan ranks (gup and dan in Korean arts), and even many Chinese and Indo-chinese arts have adopted similar ideas, often incorporating various colour "sashes" into their systems to indicate rank and development... even giving them the image of being "traditional"... but the reality is that they are a modern adaptation, or even a modern alteration to some older systems. Even the approach used by Judo, where the concept originated, has developed much further from it's foundation, and further from the way it was first implemented by Kano-sensei.

So what does this ranking mean? Ideally, a Dan grade is about how well a student can apply the lessons of their art (with the kyu grades showing how much of the system the student has attained skills in), although the ways of measuring that can obviously vary greatly from one art to another... and has a more realistic application in modern sports-based arts. In this sense, the higher ranked a practitioner, the "better" they should be in applying said skill... but it doesn't mean they know much... only that they can apply it. Of course, this is only up to a point, as with age and injury, physical skills can begin to diminish (which is why Judo tends to "rank out" at Sandan on a physical level). Beyond that, it can be more political than anything else... which is also where the third form comes into it.

The third form of ranking is typically applied in conjunction with Dan-i ranking, specifically at the higher Dan levels, and are known as Shogo titles. These titles are a synthesis of the two previous forms, being able to be attained only with the appropriate Dan grade, while also granting certain authorities and responsibilities, similar to the licensing of the Menkyo system, affording teaching authority, up to governing authority in some cases. This form of ranking was initially designed to be applied after exhausting the Dan grades, when the highest rank in the then Dai Nippon Butokukai (which would become the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei) governing early Kendo (still referred to as Kenjutsu, or Gekiken) was 5th Dan. The titles are Renshi, Kyoshi, and Hanshi, with some organisations also adopting Shihan as an entry title (although not officially a Shogo title), with each conferring teaching authority and hierarchal seniority.

So what does this ranking mean? Shogo titles are used to grant seniority at high Dan rankings... although they exist separately to the Dan system, meaning that a practitioner can be a relevant Dan grade, but not hold the Shogo title, it is not a situation where one can hold the Shogo title without also holding the relevant Dan grade. At this level of Dan, however, a practitioner is, by definition, much older, with age requirements also coming into play with Shogo, so they might not be able to consistently perform as they did when younger in competition... so the Shogo titles are ways of rewarding and acknowledging other skill development, such as teaching, mentoring, organisational skills, and contributions to the art.

As you can see here, "traditional" rankings are not dan grades, belts, or anything similar... and the idea of a belt being "traditional" is a common, but not accurate one... especially when applied to non-Japanese systems who have simply adopted their approach, or at least adopted a facsimile of it.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, cool, thanks for that. Small history lesson for you... as well as an overview of what ranking was actually designed to be, largely from a Japanese point of view (considering that's where "belt ranks", "black belt" etc all come from... Chinese systems that you're referencing will be included, but to a far lesser degree... hopefully you'll see why).
> 
> Let's start by looking at the various forms of rank, and how they have been developed, what they represent, and why they are applied. In essence, there are three approaches that can be considered "rank" (although technically only two are... they other is more akin to a title, which is linked to, but not actually, rank itself). These are Menkyo (licensing), Dan-i (level-development), and Shogo (title).
> 
> ...



Wow what a long response, thanks for explaining and taking 2 hours to type up something we all know already, and exactly what I was referring to. Who are you trying to confuse?


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

And why are you so offended by me saying traditional means something that is passed down from authentic sifu to student. Are you nuts? 


Anything more to Share?


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> And why are you so offended by me saying traditional means something that is passed down from authentic sifu to student. Are you nuts?
> 
> 
> Anything more to Share?



Son, a word of caution... you're new here (welcome aboard, by the way), but from reading your posts, you're really out of your depth in this conversation... and I'm not offended, your take on the idea of "traditional" isn't an uncommon one... so I figured I'd provide more context and understanding to the conversation. 

Let me be clear. There is nothing "traditional" about a sifu (Chinese martial arts) awarding a black belt (Japanese martial rank), and it is not something "passed down"... you're describing a modern affectation applied across culturally disparate approaches. And frankly, I genuinely doubt you "already knew" what I posted... as it showed your understanding to be incorrect.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris Parker said:


> Son, a word of caution... you're new here (welcome aboard, by the way), but from reading your posts, you're really out of your depth in this conversation... and I'm not offended, your take on the idea of "traditional" isn't an uncommon one... so I figured I'd provide more context and understanding to the conversation.
> 
> Let me be clear. There is nothing "traditional" about a sifu (Chinese martial arts) awarding a black belt (Japanese martial rank), and it is not something "passed down"... you're describing a modern affectation applied across culturally disparate approaches. And frankly, I genuinely doubt you "already knew" what I posted... as it showed your understanding to be incorrect.



Mate, your a dribbler calling people "Son" on the Internet. Like anyone knows you lol.

Chinese and Japanese both follow traditional values. So you were incorrect from the start. Where is your common sense? 

"There is nothing "traditional" about a sifu (Chinese martial arts) awarding a black belt (Japanese martial rank), and it is not something "passed down"."  
What kind of comment is this? It seems your knowledge only limited to the internet, since you are good at copying and pasting. 

BTW you have unintentionally mixed chinese sifu to japanese which is one big LOL. your as dumb as bricks my friend, or is it, "!SON!??1"" , so funny


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

More fake instructors, quasi . not Proven, not tested, and addicted to copy and paste antics.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

Yeah... you're not long for this place, are you? You may note I was part of this thread when it started 7 years ago... you've been here for a couple of weeks (and apparently lied about your profile? Cool......)... but "no one knows me"... right.

Let's be clear. You are the unknown property here, and you've so far spent your time antagonising members, and now staff (nice move)... now moving onto directly insulting them. Yes, I called you "son". Your profile states your'e 28... so I've been training longer than you claim to have been on this earth... and it was used to highlight that (of course, you've stated that that's a false age... which might be against the terms of service you agreed to, by the way... might want to check into that...)... in addition, you have not actually said anything of value in this thread (not a huge problem, except for your attitude in receiving a response), now saying such bizarre things as "Chinese and Jamaese both follow traditional values", which is about as much a non-statement as you can come up with...

Check the arts I train in (in my profile). Then talk to me about traditional.

Oh, and for the record, that text was largely "copy-pasted", yes... from an email I sent my students. I think copy-pasting myself is fine, yeah?

Oh, and if you would be so kind as to point out where I "unintentionally mixed Chinese sifu to Japanese", it'd be appreciated... as I think perhaps you're a bit off base in your reading... to put it mildly...


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah... you're not long for this place, are you? You may note I was part of this thread when it started 7 years ago... you've been here for a couple of weeks (and apparently lied about your profile? Cool......)... but "no one knows me"... right.
> 
> Let's be clear. You are the unknown property here, and you've so far spent your time antagonising members, and now staff (nice move)... now moving onto directly insulting them. Yes, I called you "son". Your profile states your'e 28... so I've been training longer than you claim to have been on this earth... and it was used to highlight that (of course, you've stated that that's a false age... which might be against the terms of service you agreed to, by the way... might want to check into that...)... in addition, you have not actually said anything of value in this thread (not a huge problem, except for your attitude in receiving a response), now saying such bizarre things as "Chinese and Jamaese both follow traditional values", which is about as much a non-statement as you can come up with...
> 
> ...



It's not the age I am for the reason to avoid running into copycats-fraudalents-and charlatons, I feel sorry you mate. Which apparently I have all but ran into (See it worked ).!

Why do you feel the need to copy and paste a message anyway, when I am not your student? And suprised why would anyone want to be seeing your behaviour after that. Do you even have Any "students"? You are atagonized over a Forum? U show zero degree in any knowledge of fighting just by how upset you are over a forum post. Truth hurts.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris Parker the big shot, I will ask about you to my friends in Hong Kong circle. If nothing comes back, word of caution, good luck. Give them a call now


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

So... you decide that I'm a "fraud and charlatan", based on..... what? And your friends in Hong Kong are exactly no connection to anything I do, so... what?

Let's be absolutely clear.

You have no idea who you're talking to, and apparently feel you're important for some reason. These are not good things. And frankly, you have not shown anything to even justify your claims or attitude. 

I wish you the best of luck, as I don't feel you're going to be here much longer...


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## dvcochran (Aug 4, 2020)

@FinalStreet , so what is your point to this current line of thinking? What are you trying to get across?


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

See now you want to remove me because you accidentally expose yourself.

We call that "removing the threat". You are the biggest loser I've seen. As soon I check into you you panic and want "me" removed, wonder why . Is that self defense?


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

Yeah... you seem to have some issues with reading... I'm not threatening your status here, I'm warning that you're headed to a ban... consider it a friendly warning if you want... but this is not doing you any favours. Oh, and look all you want... hell, I invited you to look into my arts using the links in my signature... trust me, I have no problems with people checking that out. There is no "exposure" here, other than your attitude... which, if I was to make some comment on, would indicate more projection on your side than anything else......


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

When do you invite me? Everybody


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> When do you invite me? Everybody





Chris Parker said:


> Check the arts I train in (in my profile). Then talk to me about traditional.



There you go.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Everybody can you constantly edit posts like a baffoon, contradict yourself in each post and practically every sentence, and kind of in a strange way you don't want to be clear in what your saying and playing some lame faggy blame-game on the internet. haha


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## lklawson (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> It's not the age I am for the reason to avoid running into copycats-fraudalents-and charlatons, I feel sorry you mate. Which apparently I have all but ran into (See it worked ).!
> 
> Why do you feel the need to copy and paste a message anyway, when I am not your student? And suprised why would anyone want to be seeing your behaviour after that. Do you even have Any "students"? You are atagonized over a Forum? U show zero degree in any knowledge of fighting just by how upset you are over a forum post. Truth hurts.


Dude.  You're barking up the wrong tree here.  There are a lot of people who use this forum who are exceptionally knowledgeable and Chris is definitely one of them.  Choosing to argue with Chris about Japanese martial history is akin to arguing with Oppenheimer about the development of the A-Bomb.  It's possible to lose money betting on Chris' information; but not likely.

Beyond that, you should know that Asian cultures aren't the only ones to develop sophisticated martial systems, nor are they the only ones to apply sundry "ranking" systems based on abilities or related skills.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Chris Parker said:


> There you go.




YOU CANT CHECK TRADITIONAL FROM THE PERSON CLAIMING IT'S TRADITIONAL. IT HAS TO BE GIVEN. You are an Idiot.!!. 

Amateur


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## FinalStreet (Aug 4, 2020)

Hahaha this is hilarous


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## Chris Parker (Aug 4, 2020)

FinalStreet said:


> Everybody can you constantly edit posts like a baffoon, contradict yourself in each post and practically every sentence, and kind of in a strange way you don't want to be clear in what your saying and playing some lame faggy blame-game on the internet. haha



Oh dear lord... so now we're onto homophobic comments... yeah, you're not going to last much longer... 

By the way, you get email notifications on the posts, so you know the only edit I've made... which was to ask you for clarification on one of your claims (that I "unintentionally mixed Chinese sifu to Japanese"), which I note you haven't supported... 

Oh, and if you think there are any contradictions in my posts, please point them out as well. Right now, I haven't seen any support for any of the things you have claimed are in my words... other than saying one was long... which... yeah, go into my history here, and you'll see that's me being quite brief... ha!



FinalStreet said:


> YOU CANT CHECK TRADITIONAL FROM THE PERSON CLAIMING IT'S TRADITIONAL. IT HAS TO BE GIVEN. You are an Idiot.!!.
> 
> Amateur



What?!?!?! Dude... what???

You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu and Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu... look them up. Then talk to me about "traditional".

Oh, and personal attacks (again) are a ban-able offence... you, er, did read the rules when you signed up, yeah?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 4, 2020)

*THREAD LOCKED PENDING STAFF REVIEW*


_______
*Gerry Seymour*
MartialTalk Moderator
@gpseymour


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