# Tai Chi vs The External Styles



## celtic bhoy (Feb 15, 2006)

I have read the stories of a Wudang practioner beating Thai Boxer and various other external stylists to win an asian competition.

Has anyone seen or heard of anyone beating an external stylist using Chen or even Yang Style.

My reason for asking is because most people that I have spoken to regarding martial arts believe that these 2 styles of Tai Chi are now defunct for the use of fighting.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 15, 2006)

Look for stories about Tai Chi masters from old China, Yang Ban hou for example. There are a lot of stories from old China of Tai Chi masters being challenged by all sorts of other martial artists and defeating them as well. 

There is one story about the Chen family, possibly from the Yang family, of Chen Chang-hsing being challenged and Yang Lu-Chan, though not an inside student, defeating the challenger with Chen style. This is supposedly how Yang Tai Chi was born.

There are also some Zhao Bao He Tai Chi Chuan videos on the web showing take downs and fighting.

The current Chen family has a competition to decide who will be the lineage pole bearer; Chen Zhenglei is currently the person that won. His martial skill is very high. 

Although I am of the belief that Tai Chi as a martial art is dying. As stated by one a person from the Chen line, currently in Beijing "of all the Tai Chi practitioners in the world only 5% know anything about the true martial arts of Tai Chi". Tai Chi can be a very effective martial art. Most unfortunately today more are interested in the Tai Chi health dance than the martial arts.

Another issue when it comes to Tai Chi vs. external styles, it takes longer to develop Tai Chi martial skill than external styles. Xingyi is internal and devastating, but it takes at least 5 years to become effective with any consistency. Tai chi is much the same. or at least that has been my experience.


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## mrhnau (Feb 15, 2006)

Would you mind extending the invitation a bit? I'd love to hear how other internal styles like Bagua and Hsing-I have faired against various external styles. I'm interested in the results of Tai Chi too


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 15, 2006)

There is a book I bought many years ago called "Asian Fighting Arts" By Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith. that went out of print, but I believe it was reprinted as "Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts (Bushido--The Way of the Warrior)"

It has several stories in it about fights by Chinese martial artists. 

There are many from Xingyi.

1 "story" is about Kuo Yun-shen who was the first student of Li Neng-jen. Kuo had a punch so powerful he killed a person he was fighting, this landed him in jail, where he continued to train. When he got out he modified his punch so he would not kill anyone. He would put the back of his other hand against his opponent to help absorb the blow. He was supposedly only defeated twice. Once by another Xingyi guy, a fellow student of Li Neng-jen, Ch'e I-Chai. During the fight Ch'e evaded Kuo's punch and lightly taped Kuo's shoulder, saying what's your hurry. Kuo stopped fighting. The second was Tung Ha'i Chuan. Tung and Kuo fought for 2 days and Kuo could not penetrate Tung's circular defense. On the third day Tung went on the offensive. Tung defeated Kuo without hurting him.

How true all of these stories are I do not know, but the book is a good reference book on Martial Arts.

Tai Chi - from a Yang Lineage website.

Yang Ban Hou (1837-1892) was the second child of Yang Lu Chan
There was one time when a martial arts master nicknamed Man with 10,000 Pounds of Strength came to Beijing to challenge Yang Lu Chan. After the Yang family heard of the news, Yang Lu Chan did not pay much attention to the matter. However, Yang Ban Hou said to his father that if our store has something to sell and people want to buy it, why don't we sell? What Ban Hou meant was that his family had true martial ability, so why not take the challenge. Consequently, Ban Hou went by himself to take the challenge from the man. When the contest began, the man threw his shirt off and showed his muscles to the crowd. Yang Ban Hou with his skinny body just stood waiting for the man to attack. When the fight commenced, the only image seen was the man pouncing toward Ban Hou. Ban Hou evaded the attack. The man immediately attacked with continuous strikes to Ban Hou's face. The crowd heard a yell and immediately following, the man went flying through the air several meters into the distance. When everyone was able to see clearly, they realized that Ban Hou used Separate Heel Kick to the man's groin area.


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## East Winds (Feb 16, 2006)

Xue Sheng,

This may a little bit off topic, but I think it may still be relevant. I spent 25 years of my working life in the Scottish Prison Service. During that time, I was exposed many times to conflict situations. Several times I used Taijiquan techniques to resolve the situation. Of course, I was not confronting another martial artist therefore I cannot claim that Taijiquan worked in the case proposed by this forum. What I can say however was that Taijiquan was successful in every case that I used it. 

Hope this adds something to the discussion

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2006)

I use to work in a hospital that had a mental health and detox unit, I have used Tai Chi in several situations as well. Mainly against attackers that were drunk on drugs or not stable, but it work well.


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