# What are the chances an attacker is going to try a "submission" technique?



## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique?  I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.

Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:

A hothead wants to fight, or someone is reacting emotionally and channels that into aggression and violence
Someone wants to coerce you into something (whether that is to do something for them, give something to them, or go with them somewhere)
In Situation #1, I can't imagine that someone on an emotionally-charged rampage is going to want to get into a submission hold.  They're probably going to want to get in a position where they can just rain blows on you, because they want to feel the impact of their fists on someone else.  Or, if they want to do as much damage as possible, they may have a weapon instead.

In Situation #2, I also don't see a submission hold as an incredibly useful technique.  Someone who wants you to go somewhere I think is more likely to simply grab you, or else use coercive tactics like brandishing a knife or a gun, or or else disable with something like a taser or a chemical-soaked cloth.

The reason I bring up this question is because a lot of the discussion I see about self defense curriculums is that they aren't tested in the ring.  My Taekwondo self defense skills are not put to the test in the Octagon, so therefore those techniques are unrefined.  But I'm thinking, _I don't need to defend myself in the Octagon against a pro MMA fighter trying to set up an arm-bar.  I need to defend myself against some random person on the street who wants me to give him my wallet or wants to throw me down and then punch or kick me while I'm on the ground.
_
Am I thinking clearly, here?  Is the likely defense situation going to be void of MMA grappling moves?  How often would those show up by the attacker in a self-defense situation?


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 8, 2019)

I’d think you are mostly correct about the likelihood of facing mma submissions in a self defense scenario. However, those grappling techniques are very useful to avoid getting beaten to death, control a single opponent on the ground, or escape and stand to run or continue fighting. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

Its not a 0% chance... too many people train, or have trained...

This would be situation #1 I think...


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Its not a 0% chance... too many people train, or have trained...
> 
> This would be situation #1 I think...



On the one hand, the guy using BJJ wasn't the attacker.  However, he didn't do much to try and de-escalate.


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I’d think you are mostly correct about the likelihood of facing mma submissions in a self defense scenario. However, those grappling techniques are very useful to avoid getting beaten to death, control a single opponent on the ground, or escape and stand to run or continue fighting.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I am not arguing against the validity of learning those techniques.  I think they are very useful skills to know, and wish I had more time to cross-train so I could learn them.

What I am arguing against is the requirement to learn how to defend against those techniques in order to be considered a "real fighter".


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique?  I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.
> 
> Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:
> 
> ...


yes I agree, a lot of the discussion move quickly into what if, fantasy land.

the problem isn't they are "unrefined "so much as they are " undefined" you don't know if they will work or not in any given situation, you don't know how fit/ strong/ big your attacker will be and what skills they will have. they may have done 6 bjj,lesion,  enough to get the hang of an arm bar. big strong heavy guys have a habit of grappling, trained or other wise as that were their advantage lies, if they have enough if a strength / weight advantage their lack if defined skill is a moot point

one thing is generally certain, if they are going to attack you, they believe they have the advantage or they wouldn't do it. you need to be confident in your own mind that they are wrong and then be able to demonstrate that,

so critically asses your abilities,  your highly unlikely to be randomly attacked by a highly skilled mma fighter,  but someone who has been watching it on the tv and thinks they will try out out on you, is a distinct possibility


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## Danny T (Jul 8, 2019)

Uhhh...right no one gets choked or strangled in violent encounters. Oh and headlock and neck cranks don't happen either.


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Uhhh...right no one gets choked or strangled in violent encounters. Oh and headlock and neck cranks don't happen either.



There are a lot more constructive ways you could have put that.


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

Its not to hard to find examples:
















There were a lot more... but they were age restricted. The point is that you don't know what you are going to get. I would train to learn at least the basics, just like I would train to learn the basics of striking and take downs. And training with people who specialize in a particular area is very valuable, if you want to know if your stuff works.


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> On the one hand, the guy using BJJ wasn't the attacker. However, he didn't do much to try and de-escalate.


The point was not who was the aggressor... the point was that out in the real world, people have these skills and do use them effectively in real fights.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 8, 2019)

It happens in fights. I just wanted to add a reason number 3: to embarass the person, or prove yourself to friends (think bullying and/or gang initiations). In those situations, the attacker might actually choose to go to submissions, so they can see you beg to be let up.


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> The point was not who was the aggressor... the point was that out in the real world, people have these skills and do use them effectively in real fights.



But that's not the question.  The question isn't "do people have these skills."  The question is "if I am defending myself from someone, am I likely to need to defend myself against these skills?"

There is a difference.  If people have these skills, but I'm not getting into fights with them, then it's not something I need to defend against.  Just the fact they are used in street fights doesn't mean that someone who is going to attack me is going to have that objective in mind.  I do believe there is a difference between a street fight and a self-defense situation.  A street fight is an unregulated match in which two people have decided to use violence to sort out their differences, and both people are responsible for the situation occurring.  A self-defense situation is when one person uses aggression on another, and the other is forced to defend themselves.

In the first post you made in this thread, and in the first video in your most recent post, it appears that both people were escalating the situation to the point of violence.  Nobody had the presence of mind to back off and try to calm the situation down.  This is not self defense, it is a street fight.  Someone who has the necessary calm to avoid that situation is not going to need to defend against those techniques.

In the other two videos come into the situation in progress, so I have no idea whether it's a street fight or self-defense, and if it's the later than who is responsible for starting it.

I do think the difference is important, because there's a difference between "let's meet at the parking lot at 5 and throw down over this" vs. "hey, you, give me your wallet and your keys."


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> It happens in fights. I just wanted to add a reason number 3: to embarass the person, or prove yourself to friends (think bullying and/or gang initiations). In those situations, the attacker might actually choose to go to submissions, so they can see you beg to be let up.



That is one I hadn't considered.


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Its not to hard to find examples:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


but this back to the university of you tube fantasy land, clearly there are SOME people walking round with these skills and there are some very dangerous people walking round with no formalised training at all, the question isn't can you find a you tube vid of the skills in question, its rather what's the likelihood of you being randomly attacked by such a person,

id say that was pretty dam low, if on the other hand you spend a good deal of your free time starting fights with random strangers, then there's a fairly good chance you will run into such a person sooner or later, just on the  balance of probabilities and if there a camera phone in the vicinity of the fight, it will end up on you tube, for you to ascribe undue significance to


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Its not to hard to find examples:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and only one of them is recognisable as jutisu,( the first one) the other two just look a like a brawl, that someone has tagged as jujitsu to get more views


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> I do think the difference is important, because there's a difference between "let's meet at the parking lot at 5 and throw down over this" vs. "hey, you, give me your wallet and your keys."


Correct. I tried to avoid the videos where the two guys were obviously meeting to throw down. 

But why would the chances of having grappling experience be different for the "give me your wallet guy" and the "meet me in the parking lot guy?" Does having grappling experience mean you will never be the "give me your wallet guy?"



jobo said:


> the question isn't can you find a you tube vid of the skills in question, its rather what's the likelihood of you being randomly attacked by such a person,


I just figured that the number of occurrences of a thing happening and showing up on youtube is lower than the total number of occurrences of that same thing happening, whether filmed, or unfilmed. I don't see videos of no touch knock outs, or no touch throws being done in street fights or being caught on camera in real self defense situations and then posted on youtube. That doesn't mean they don't happen. But if I were to be attacked by a random guy... Using youtube searches, I would bet that its far more likely that he has grappling experience enough to cause me injury than it is for him to be skilled enough in the no touch arts to cause me injury. Therefore, I choose to spend more time studying grappling and submission things rather than how to hold my tongue to the side while I cross my toe.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 8, 2019)

The odds of an attacker (such as a mugger or rapist) jumping out and applying any kind of joint lock on you are vanishingly low. The same goes for specialized technical chokes such as a triangle choke or cross collar choke. 

More instinctive chokes such as a rear naked choke, guillotine, or bulldog choke? Those happen. Strangulation or attempted strangulation is unfortunately a pretty common form of domestic violence. It can happen in other forms of  assault as well.

If you're prioritizing the sort of attacks you need to be skilled in countering in a self-defense situation, then joint locks would be very low on the list. The common forms of chokes that a non- or minimally trained assailant might use? Those would be higher on the list.

There is a caveat to the above. If you train to _use_ joint locks or sophisticated chokes for self-defense purposes, then you and your sparring partners should know how to counter them. This is so that you can have the experience of applying these moves against someone who is attempting to intelligently defend them, which will sharpen your technique much more than drilling with a compliant partner.


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Correct. I tried to avoid the videos where the two guys were obviously meeting to throw down.
> 
> But why would the chances of having grappling experience be different for the "give me your wallet guy" and the "meet me in the parking lot guy?" Does having grappling experience mean you will never be the "give me your wallet guy?"



There's a difference between them having grappling experience, and them using it to achieve their goal.  Someone who is trying to steal your wallet wants a quick interaction so there's a small window where they're less likely to get caught, and a grappling match is usually the opposite of quick.  

Them wrestling with you doesn't help you get your wallet to them, and in fact may make it harder.  They are more likely to try to intimidate you, either by shoving you against a wall, brandishing a weapon, or just acting tough and threatening violence.  How many people are going to do a double-leg takedown, take side control, flip you into an armbar, and then say "by the way, give me your wallet?"  It's an interaction that doesn't really make sense.



> I just figured that the number of occurrences of a thing happening and showing up on youtube is lower than the total number of occurrences of that same thing happening, whether filmed, or unfilmed. I don't see videos of no touch knock outs, or no touch throws being done in street fights or being caught on camera in real self defense situations and then posted on youtube. That doesn't mean they don't happen. But if I were to be attacked by a random guy... Using youtube searches, I would bet that its far more likely that he has grappling experience enough to cause me injury than it is for him to be skilled enough in the no touch arts to cause me injury. Therefore, I choose to spend more time studying grappling and submission things rather than how to hold my tongue to the side while I cross my toe.



This is where I think the difference between "street fight" and "self defense" becomes apparent.  I'm not saying no-touch KOs and no-touch throws work.  But there's a lot more opportunity to grab your phone and film when two guys in a crowded gym are shouting at each other, than when someone shoves you into a wall out of the blue and says "give me your wallet".


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The odds of an attacker (such as a mugger or rapist) jumping out and applying any kind of joint lock on you are vanishingly low. The same goes for specialized technical chokes such as a triangle choke or cross collar choke.



This is what I am asking about, thanks.



> More instinctive chokes such as a rear naked choke, guillotine, or bulldog choke? Those happen. Strangulation or attempted strangulation is unfortunately a pretty common form of domestic violence. It can happen in other forms of  assault as well.



Two thoughts here:

Maybe I should have differentiated between these and the other submissions
What is a bulldog choke?



> If you're prioritizing the sort of attacks you need to be skilled in countering in a self-defense situation, then joint locks would be very low on the list. The common forms of chokes that a non- or minimally trained assailant might use? Those would be higher on the list.



This makes sense.



> There is a caveat to the above. If you train to _use_ joint locks or sophisticated chokes for self-defense purposes, then you and your sparring partners should know how to counter them. This is so that you can have the experience of applying these moves against someone who is attempting to intelligently defend them, which will sharpen your technique much more than drilling with a compliant partner.



I agree.


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Correct. I tried to avoid the videos where the two guys were obviously meeting to throw down.
> 
> But why would the chances of having grappling experience be different for the "give me your wallet guy" and the "meet me in the parking lot guy?" Does having grappling experience mean you will never be the "give me your wallet guy?"
> 
> I just figured that the number of occurrences of a thing happening and showing up on youtube is lower than the total number of occurrences of that same thing happening, whether filmed, or unfilmed. I don't see videos of no touch knock outs, or no touch throws being done in street fights or being caught on camera in real self defense situations and then posted on youtube. That doesn't mean they don't happen. But if I were to be attacked by a random guy... Using youtube searches, I would bet that its far more likely that he has grappling experience enough to cause me injury than it is for him to be skilled enough in the no touch arts to cause me injury. Therefore, I choose to spend more time studying grappling and submission things rather than how to hold my tongue to the side while I cross my toe.


why have you introduced no touch fights as a comparator, they and your comparison is just silly.

you tube is a very selected version of reality, if you get beat  up and it's your friend filming it, it doesn't end up on you tube, if two blokes wrestle around and nothing much happens th  they run out of puff and go home, it doesn't end up one you tube. if a few million people go for a Saturday night out and don't get in a fight, it doesn't end up on you tube

if you search bjj in street fight and end up with dozens of examples from the seven billion population of the world, that doesn't mean its common place

you could if you wanted an informed estimate, consider what % of the counties population study bjj, and then work out how likely you were to even meet/ interact with one in a year,, (other than your bjj class,) let alone be attacked by one for no reason at all


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> What is a bulldog choke?


If you have someone in a side headlock and they make the mistake of turning their head away from you instead of towards you, they've just put themselves into a bulldog choke.


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> More instinctive chokes such as a rear naked choke, guillotine, or bulldog choke? Those happen. Strangulation or attempted strangulation is unfortunately a pretty common form of domestic violence. It can happen in other forms of assault as well.
> 
> If you're prioritizing the sort of attacks you need to be skilled in countering in a self-defense situation, then joint locks would be very low on the list. The common forms of chokes that a non- or minimally trained assailant might use? Those would be higher on the list.


I agree with Tony here. Which is why I suggested learning the basics of ground work, take downs and striking. I am sure that someone has used a 540 tornado kick to attack someone else on the street... but I don't think its as high a probability as someone using a front kick... which I believe is a lower probability than the guy using a hay maker type punch.



skribs said:


> Them wrestling with you doesn't help you get your wallet to them, and in fact may make it harder. They are more likely to try to intimidate you, either by shoving you against a wall, brandishing a weapon, or just acting tough and threatening violence. How many people are going to do a double-leg takedown, take side control, flip you into an armbar, and then say "by the way, give me your wallet?" It's an interaction that doesn't really make sense.


If I pull out my karate and punch them in the face with a loud kiai... am I always going to knock him out? If he has any grappling experience, thats when he gets my back or picks me up and slams me. Then he takes my wallet. I guess I was just figuring in what would happen in the situation if my first response technique did not instantly incapacitate the attacker. I guess that means I just need to practice that punch more.



jobo said:


> if you search bjj in street fight and end up with dozens of examples from the seven billion population of the world, that doesn't mean its common place


The same 7 billion people have not produced a video yet of no touch techniques working in the street or self defense. Note that I am not concluding from that search, that they do not happen... only that they have not been filmed. That alone is not enough data to say that they definitely do not work. I do conclude that I am more likely to face functional grappling skill than functional no touch skill.



jobo said:


> you could if you wanted an informed estimate, consider what % of the counties population study bjj, and then work out how likely you were to even meet/ interact with one in a year, let alone be attacked by one for no reason at all


I did google searches for Orlando, Houston and San Francisco for BJJ schools. I found about 20, 60, and 40 respectively. It has been my experience that finding out that someone has at one point trained, while I was in these cities has been surprisingly easy (not counting going into the martial arts communities there) The OP mentioned submission stuff, not specifically BJJ stuff. If I add searches for Judo, Sambo, and MMA I find a ton more schools in each area. 

I conclude that the possibility of my attacker having experience in submissions is higher than 0 and high enough that I recommend learning the basics in ground work. Just like I recommend learning the basics in striking and take downs.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 8, 2019)

With the growth of the UFC and BJJ, probbly a damn sight more likely than before at least for a lay person to try and imitate it.       But Judo is one of the more popular sports, and if a percentage of that learnt submissions then apply that to this.  At least if its a commonly practiced sport in your country. Same with BJJ but all BJJ people learn submissions as far as i know. 


How grappling would show up, is if you get charged or thrown on the floor, you should learn them more as a method to get used to getting charged and how to deal with getting charged more than anything or if you slip.   I would say you need to follow the MMA mindset and be a good generalist for practical self defence skills, not necessarily to fight against other MMA fighting (all though the chance of fighting somone with some training isnt entirely out of the question, things happen) 

And there are no "MMA grappling moves" its what ever styles and systems they learnt grappling from moves, to which some are cross style as there are only X amounts of ways to grapple effectively.   But you do need to pressure test yourself and your skillset if you want a good chance of not freezing when actually getting in a confrontation, there is generally no better place than a ameature fight/tournament.

eddendum:   i wouldn't necessarily say a proper submission but the chance someone tries something BJJ or MMA esque on you is more likely than before, unless you live in a area with a lot of BJJ/Judo/sub wrestling practitioners.


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I agree with Tony here. Which is why I suggested learning the basics of ground work, take downs and striking. I am sure that someone has used a 540 tornado kick to attack someone else on the street... but I don't think its as high a probability as someone using a front kick... which I believe is a lower probability than the guy using a hay maker type punch.
> 
> If I pull out my karate and punch them in the face with a loud kiai... am I always going to knock him out? If he has any grappling experience, thats when he gets my back or picks me up and slams me. Then he takes my wallet. I guess I was just figuring in what would happen in the situation if my first response technique did not instantly incapacitate the attacker. I guess that means I just need to practice that punch more.
> 
> ...


again, no one is suggesting no touch skills are any thing other than fantasy,, ???

at the moment your argument is rresembling saying I'm more likely to be knored to death by a polar bear than eaten by a dragon(  so I'm including in my training on anti polar bear techniques, as the chance of a polar bear attack is indeed higher than 0, though round here its going to take some really lax security at the zoo and some amazing bad luck, . it's clearly a really really stupid argument your putting forward


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## Buka (Jul 8, 2019)

I think with each passing year more and more people stop in for a cup of coffee in MMA schools. While most don't last long, even training for a few months can give you certain skills you never had before. I'm not talking about the level of skills we all know around here, I'm talking about certain basic fighting skills that the average chump had no idea about before he trained for the few months that he did.

I also think if you profile who walks into these gyms and trains for a few month the majority will be young males. Young males get into more fights than anybody else. Then....let's add one more thing that always leads to a mellow evening - liquor. We all know what that does. And we all know how many young males go through that right of passage.

Times have changed. With the popularity of the UFC and MMA in general, just about everybody knows what a rear naked choke is. I'm not saying they can do it correctly, but I'll bet you every young male has tried it out on his friends while goofing around.

And I'll bet you a lot of young guys who have never set foot in a Martial Arts gym can, and have, done rear naked chokes on people. Then you have certain violent fighting techniques learned in prison. Chokes are high on that list. So are young males.

Some years ago in Law Enforcement training you were no longer allowed to teach cardiovascular restraint holds - rear nakeds and their assorted cousins. So in 03 I wrote a proposal to my bosses concerning the ever growing popularity of MMA and how common a rear naked choke had become among young males of our city.  (Boston) I told my boss I wanted to teach my officers how to defend against a rear naked choke. My boss picked up the ball immediately and said to me "So, in order to do that you'll have to pair the men up and show them how to properly do a rear naked choke so they may train to defend it with each other?"
I smiled and said "Exactly".

And that's just what we did.

I think that among all the submission holds you are likely to encounter, a rear naked choke would be at the top of the list.


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2019)

Very unlikely imo. Not saying it will never happen but in a anger fuelled attack if you've been taken to the floor and mounted 9 out of 10 times they're going to try and punch you from there not work to set up an arm or roll to a triangle etc. Even in Mma majority of times a guy gets mounted the guy on top throws punches more because going for a submission is risky in case you get rolled over in the process.

Yes chokes happen in fights but mostly from what I've seen its the standard 2 hand throttle more than a rear naked choke or an eziquiel or a cross collar choke


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> at the moment your argument is rresembling saying I'm more likely to be knored to death by a polar bear than eaten by a dragon( so I'm including in my training on anti polar bear techniques, as the chance of a polar bear attack is indeed higher than 0, though round here its going to take some really lax security at the zoo and some amazing bad luck, . it's clearly a really really stupid argument your putting forward


Crime in Chicago - Wikipedia
Crime in New York City - Wikipedia

The violent crime rate (homicide, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) in Chicago is less than 1% (903 per 100,000 people) and in New York it is about 1/2 of 1 percent (565 per 100,000 people). Those percentages are only slightly above 0... So I guess we really don't need to train any sort of self defense... as it is unlikely that we will ever need it. Chances are we will be in the 99% of people never to deal with such things. Is that what you are saying? Are you arguing that odds of meeting an attacker who has experience in submissions are so low, that we shouldn't train the basics in order to defend?

My argument is that if you are training for the unlikely event that you are in the one percent or less that gets attacked... you should cover all the bases with basic training: striking, take downs and ground work. As Tony said, you are most likely to see very basic techniques... but if you have no idea how to counter those very basic techniques, they become pretty effective.


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## skribs (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Crime in Chicago - Wikipedia
> Crime in New York City - Wikipedia
> 
> The violent crime rate (homicide, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) in Chicago is less than 1% (903 per 100,000 people) and in New York it is about 1/2 of 1 percent (565 per 100,000 people). Those percentages are only slightly above 0... So I guess we really don't need to train any sort of self defense... as it is unlikely that we will ever need it. Chances are we will be in the 99% of people never to deal with such things. Is that what you are saying? Are you arguing that odds of meeting an attacker who has experience in submissions are so low, that we shouldn't train the basics in order to defend?
> ...



False equivalency.  If you are training for the 1% of the time you will be attacked, then do you train for the 0.99% of the time you need to defend against basic techniques, or the 0.01% you need to defend against advanced techniques?


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Crime in Chicago - Wikipedia
> Crime in New York City - Wikipedia
> 
> The violent crime rate (homicide, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault) in Chicago is less than 1% (903 per 100,000 people) and in New York it is about 1/2 of 1 percent (565 per 100,000 people). Those percentages are only slightly above 0... So I guess we really don't need to train any sort of self defense... as it is unlikely that we will ever need it. Chances are we will be in the 99% of people never to deal with such things. Is that what you are saying? Are you arguing that odds of meeting an attacker who has experience in submissions are so low, that we shouldn't train the basics in order to defend?
> ...


stastics lie, out if those, a number you will be very lucky to avoid even if you have ma training, so the % of situation you can effect for the better  just by fighting back is a lot less than 1% the rest are really about reducing your exposure. or you turn a Robbery into a homicide by fighting back.

so your chance of being able to use your skills to protect yourself is only a fraction of 1 %.  the number of these were you're attacker is a trained ma, must therefore be a very small faction of  t  attacks

then id point out that the vast majority of citizen live long fruitful and mostly happy lives with out ever learning ma at all or at least to any degree. so you( and I) are the odd one out. and you appear to be overly paranoid about how at risk you are

I'm quite likely to get into confrontations,im like that, but even then the number of  actual attacks I've suffered in the last 20 years is one and he was just a bozo that got beaten up .

being able to defend myself is phycological benifit not something I'm freting about and certainly not about being choked out


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## wab25 (Jul 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> False equivalency.


Please explain my false equivalency.

It was pointed out that being attacked by a polar bear is very rare, so you probably don't need to prepare for a polar bear attack, even though it is more likely than a magical dragon attack. I was pointing out that people actually getting attacked is also quite low... as in less than 1%. (where I live the rate of violent attacks is 196 per 100,000 people... way less) If he is arguing that the chances of being attacked by someone with submission skills is slow low that one need not train for it... in reality, most people never get attacked anyway. (nationally the violent crime rate is 383 per 100,000 people)

My second argument is that if you are going to train for that eventuality (even though it is very rare) that you should train the basics of all 3: striking, take downs and ground work. I never mentioned a split between basic and advanced techniques. I would say do 33% on the basics of each (striking, take downs and ground work) ... but I wouldn't argue if you wanted to do 40%, 40% and 20%. But I do feel that quite a few people are familiar enough with basic chokes and pins, as well as basic take downs, just like they can throw hard hay maker punches and the occasional kick. I never said you need to train the advanced submissions... I have always said to learn the basics.

Your original question was "what are the chances an attacker is going to try a submission technique?" The chance of him grabbing you, putting you into a rolling arm bar and then asking for your wallet are extremely low. I think the chances of your first martial response completely taking him out are low. I think the chances of a struggle happening after your first martial response are high. I think being prepared to deal with basic strikes, basic take downs and basic ground work, including basic choke defense, are all valuable in this event.


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## MetalBoar (Jul 8, 2019)

Yeah, I think it depends a lot on what sort of situations you're worried about, where you live, and what your lifestyle choices are like. I grew up in a violent time and place with a lot of unemployment, desperation and gang conflict. I was a young man in that environment and, as @Buka accurately stated, being a young man I found myself unwilling to avoid pool halls, bars and "The Cruise" where I knew trouble might find me. 

I saw a lot of fights at that time that fell into "Situation 1" or "Situation 3" and the best self defense against many of them would have been just not getting involved in the monkey dance to begin with. That being said it wasn't always possible to avoid having things turn physical once you'd put yourself in the wrong place to begin with. This was before BJJ was really a thing in the US but high school wrestling was very popular in my home town and I'd say that many, but far from most, of the fights I saw involved someone who applied some measure of actual grappling skills. There was a real culture of violence there and I saw people get seriously injured by grapplers. I think it's also relevant to point out that pretty much every fight I saw involved both sides applying some sort of striking, not always skillfully, and that I saw people get seriously injured from that too. So I think if you're a young hot head who goes places where a lot of other young hot heads are drinking and maybe looking for a fight you might have to worry about facing someone with at least a modicum of grappling skills sooner or later who intends to hurt you with them. The US is a lot less violent now than it was in the late '80's so it might be later rather than sooner if you aren't the sort to start things.

As far as situation # 2 goes, I've only ever once had anyone try to mug me and they were so drunk and incompetent it was funny, and no, it didn't happen in my home town. A number of my friends have experienced muggings and attempted muggings and I can't think of any of their stories that involve grappling of any sort and even when striking occurred it usually wasn't a fight, it was the mugger sucker punching them. A lot the time the muggings involved weapons or it as just a snatch and run. One guy I know had a knife pulled on him in a restroom at a bus station and his wallet taken. Another friend of mine had a guy walk up and put a gun to his head when he was sitting at a red light with his car window down and take his watch and wallet all while telling how everyone knew what was going on and had cell phones but they weren't going to do anything to help him. Same guy had someone grab a package he was carrying and try to run off with it. I've known a couple of women who've had purses snatched, one was just a grab and run, the other got hit by surprise and then had her purse grabbed. Yet another guy (while rather drunk) had his pants pulled down and was pushed into a urinal and got his wallet stolen while he was taking a leak - so I guess some of these were sort of grappling...


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## jobo (Jul 8, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> Yeah, I think it depends a lot on what sort of situations you're worried about, where you live, and what your lifestyle choices are like. I grew up in a violent time and place with a lot of unemployment, desperation and gang conflict. I was a young man in that environment and, as @Buka accurately stated, being a young man I found myself unwilling to avoid pool halls, bars and "The Cruise" where I knew trouble might find me.
> 
> I saw a lot of fights at that time that fell into "Situation 1" or "Situation 3" and the best self defense against many of them would have been just not getting involved in the monkey dance to begin with. That being said it wasn't always possible to avoid having things turn physical once you'd put yourself in the wrong place to begin with. This was before BJJ was really a thing in the US but high school wrestling was very popular in my home town and I'd say that many, but far from most, of the fights I saw involved someone who applied some measure of actual grappling skills. There was a real culture of violence there and I saw people get seriously injured by grapplers. I think it's also relevant to point out that pretty much every fight I saw involved both sides applying some sort of striking, not always skillfully, and that I saw people get seriously injured from that too. So I think if you're a young hot head who goes places where a lot of other young hot heads are drinking and maybe looking for a fight you might have to worry about facing someone with at least a modicum of grappling skills sooner or later who intends to hurt you with them. The US is a lot less violent now than it was in the late '80's so it might be later rather than sooner if you aren't the sort to start things.
> 
> As far as situation # 2 goes, I've only ever once had anyone try to mug me and they were so drunk and incompetent it was funny, and no, it didn't happen in my home town. A number of my friends have experienced muggings and attempted muggings and I can't think of any of their stories that involve grappling of any sort and even when striking occurred it usually wasn't a fight, it was the mugger sucker punching them. A lot the time the muggings involved weapons or it as just a snatch and run. One guy I know had a knife pulled on him in a restroom at a bus station and his wallet taken. Another friend of mine had a guy walk up and put a gun to his head when he was sitting at a red light with his car window down and take his watch and wallet all while telling how everyone knew what was going on and had cell phones but they weren't going to do anything to help him. Same guy had someone grab a package he was carrying and try to run off with it. I've known a couple of women who've had purses snatched, one was just a grab and run, the other got hit by surprise and then had her purse grabbed. Yet another guy (while rather drunk) had his pants pulled down and was pushed into a urinal and got his wallet stolen while he was taking a leak - so I guess some of these were sort of grappling...


one? of my urban games was to colour photocopy a 50  pound note and walk round the town holding it invitingly in my hand and or putting it down on street side tables!, whilst I drank my coffee, till eventually someone snatched and ran, it always amused me to think of their face when they stopped to look at it al sweaty and out of breath, happy days


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

skribs said:


> What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique?  I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.
> 
> Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:
> 
> ...


This has long been part of my thought process on my own SD training (and how I teach). We have some reasonable information that people who are developing new skills over time (like MA training) are less prone to violence (whether this is causal or not is unclear, and not really important). That means we're less likely to be attacked by someone who has put real time into training for combat. We might find someone who has a lot of experience with combat, but review of available video doesn't show a lot of submission techniques showing up.

Untrained people tend to use different offensive tactics and strategy than trained people. Even more so if they are also inexperienced.

I think it's useful to train a bit for experienced, skilled, trained people. But not for beginners. Nothing I'm going to teach someone in their first 6 months is likely to change their odds against someone with a few years of good training. Much I can teach in that first 6 months can change their odds against someone who's raging and flailing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

jobo said:


> one thing is generally certain, if they are going to attack you, they believe they have the advantage or they wouldn't do it. you need to be confident in your own mind that they are wrong and then be able to demonstrate that,


They've done the math. We're expecting our training to change the math in ways they don't expect.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

wab25 said:


> The point was not who was the aggressor... the point was that out in the real world, people have these skills and do use them effectively in real fights.


I don't think he was suggesting the skills were useless. Rather, that not being able to defend against a skilled guard pass (for instance) doesn't make other skills useless.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you have someone in a side headlock and they make the mistake of turning their head away from you instead of towards you, they've just put themselves into a bulldog choke. View attachment 22339


Also known as the "trying to talk to students while demonstrating side headlock defense" choke.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you have someone in a side headlock and they make the mistake of turning their head away from you instead of towards you, they've just put themselves into a bulldog choke. View attachment 22339


Also known as the "trying to talk to students while demonstrating side headlock defense" choke.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Also known as the "trying to talk to students while demonstrating side headlock defense" choke.


Best way to avoid this is have the first thing you tell students while demonstrating side headlock defense be an explanation of which way your head should be facing and why.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Best way to avoid this is have the first thing you tell students while demonstrating side headlock defense be an explanation of which way your head should be facing and why.


That's exactly the first thing I tell them. Unfortunately, I have a habit of trying to look at them as I say it.


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## paitingman (Jul 9, 2019)

Chokes, yes.

You might expect an arm bar now that MMA is so well known.

Maybe off-topic, but takedowns and basic takedown defense, as well as some basic positional grappling skills, are a must.
I feel that the odds of encountering someone with high school wrestling experience are high enough.


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## jobo (Jul 9, 2019)

paitingman said:


> Chokes, yes.
> 
> You might expect an arm bar now that MMA is so well known.
> 
> ...


well if high school wrestler are so deadly, why bother with anything else, just learn high school wrestling, but what if you run in to a high school boxer  ? better learn that as well what if it's a high school weightlifter  ? better pump some iron, then there's high school football players to worry about. there's no take down defence on earth that will stop one of those 300 lb monsters, this is getting complicated !


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## CB Jones (Jul 9, 2019)

skribs said:


> in order to be considered a "real fighter".



Does this get you free coffee or something?


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## dvcochran (Jul 9, 2019)

skribs said:


> What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique?  I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.
> 
> Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:
> 
> ...


I think I follow the trane of thought. 
History tells me unless they are truly well trained, "emotionally charge rampage" Can be to your advantage. How do you know this emotionally charged street person knows how to submit in the first place. I think of someone trying to rain blows on you and someone intent on putting you in a submission hold as very different. For sake of argument, lets leave the weapon out of the discussion for now because the responses may have to be so very different. 

I stress this a lot. THE most common mistake made by students of MA are when they allow themselves to be forced out of their best position of strength. So many scenarios to dream up but so little time. It is a simple fact that every specific "what if" cannot be dreamed up thus prepared for, nor should a person expect that. You have to practice is such a manner that scenarios are logically grouped together to learn and understand how/what works at the highest % for X similar offenses. 
In the scenario where you are genially attacked by a grappler intent on harm or leaving you empty pocketed, upper level thinking ideas like "don't be put on the ground" work. Is it easy? Hell no, especially if you are fringing on out of your element. 
Again, if it is truly a SD experience where something bad or very bad is going down, my bigger fear from the grappler is when he has a pal with him. If you submit to the ground where your skills greatly diminish, the grappler at best (hopefully) restrains you while his pal takes your wallet and whatever else they want. And nothing else, (use your imagination).
A psychological manifestation may take place at this point. Fright/flight may take over, or you get pissed and do things that might get you critically hurt or dead, or if the noose is not already too tight, you may find your center and a winning way out. 
That said there will most certainly be forms of "compromise" to gain the upper hand. This is entering some very advanced SD skills.


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## skribs (Jul 10, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> Does this get you free coffee or something?



It's the type of verbage I see thrown around, it's not what I agree with.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> well if high school wrestler are so deadly, why bother with anything else, just learn high school wrestling, but what if you run in to a high school boxer  ? better learn that as well what if it's a high school weightlifter  ? better pump some iron, then there's high school football players to worry about. there's no take down defence on earth that will stop one of those 300 lb monsters, this is getting complicated !


Nothing "deadly" in his comment. Wrestling is a pretty common high school sport in the US, which makes it reasonable that a given assailant might have a bit of wrestling experience in their past. Probably more likely than any other MA training, if I had to guess.


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## jobo (Jul 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Nothing "deadly" in his comment. Wrestling is a pretty common high school sport in the US, which makes it reasonable that a given assailant might have a bit of wrestling experience in their past. Probably more likely than any other MA training, if I had to guess.


it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?

but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?
> 
> but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with


Not sure about football, but I’ve been informed by one of my old instructors that rugby is definitely a martial art.


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## jobo (Jul 10, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not sure about football, but I’ve been informed by one of my old instructors that rugby is definitely a martial art.


yes it most certainly is, id never go out if my way to get in a fight with a rugby player, not even the skinny / short one, though of course I did in my teens, but then I was one of the skinny rugby players in question,


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## Martial D (Jul 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> What are the chances an attacker in a self-defense situation is going to try a "submission" technique?  I put "submission" in quotes because I don't expect that someone willing to commit violence against me would stop when I tap out, but that they would take the arm bar all the way to snap or a chokehold all the way to a blackout.
> 
> Most of the time, when you need to act in self defense, I imagine it is one of two situations:
> 
> ...


The chances are high that;
A) the guys buddy grabs you from behind in a choke or arm torque of some sort

Or

B) you end up on the ground in a similar position.


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## jobo (Jul 10, 2019)

Martial D said:


> The chances are high that;
> A) the guys buddy grabs you from behind in a choke or arm torque of some sort
> 
> Or
> ...


I'm not sure how high that is, compared with the chances of them sucker punching you from behind  or other variation, but then you've changed the whole nature if the debate, fighting two or more people means you've a very very high chance of loosing, unless they are physically inadequate to somedegree or at least fairly drunk,  or your not going to get out of a choke hold, if one is holding you and the other one is punch the **** out if you, not going to happen.

for as much as there can be a strategy for fight multiple attackers, not getting in to any sort of hold or even a grapple is more if a priority for survival, than getting out if them, as soon as you stop moving your in serious trouble


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## Martial D (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> I'm not sure how high that is, compared with the chances of them sucker punching you from behind  or other variation, but then you've changed the whole nature if the debate, fighting two or more people means you've a very very high chance of loosing, unless they are physically inadequate to somedegree or at least fairly drunk,  or your not going to get out of a choke hold, if one is holding you and the other one is punch the **** out if you, not going to happen.
> 
> for as much as there can be a strategy for fight multiple attackers, not getting in to any sort of hold or even a grapple is more if a priority for survival, than getting out if them, as soon as you stop moving your in serious trouble


Best to be prepared for everything really. I've been grabbed or grabbed at from behind in those sorts of situations before. Oddly enough my go to for that is a WC technique rather than a bjj one, but ya.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?
> 
> but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with


Most self-defense training does include defense against a tackle and slam at some point. A wrestler is likely to have more variety.


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## jobo (Jul 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Most self-defense training does include defense against a tackle and slam at some point. A wrestler is likely to have more variety.


Ok so how does that work against  250 lb athlete ? The only viable defence us to be quick enough to side step them, which on its own is fairky unlikely, unless they start their run up a fair distance aWay, if they don't miss the quarterback they ain't going to miss you


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> Ok so how does that work against  250 lb athlete ? The only viable defence us to be quick enough to side step them, which on its own is fairky unlikely, unless they start their run up a fair distance aWay, if they don't miss the quarterback they ain't going to miss you


There are throws that work reasonably well against a tackle, including some sacrifices. Unlike the quarterback, I don’t care if my knee touches the ground. I don’t even care if my back goes down, so long as it’s with me in control and passes them beyond me.


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## drop bear (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?
> 
> but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with



Good structure and good technique handle a lot of attacks before you need a specific defense. 

They are also the best way to counter someone who is stronger than you.


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## paitingman (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's just a turn if phrase, or an idiom, I don't actual mean their deadly as in they will kill you, though of course they may , but you knew that ?
> 
> but the point I made is valid, if your going to change your training to make allowance for people who wrestled at college, then it would be reasonable to include provision for dealing with other things people may have done at college, like weight training and football, both of which are popular I believe and American football fits any practical definition of being a martial art, its is a team war game, so that's major concern if your going down the what if route, as of course is weight training, if your substantially below the strength level if your attacker you have serious problems to content with


A good point. 
A lot of the success of many fighters these days is just good, hard athletic training.

If you're trying to keep up with that, it's a good idea to also do basic strength and athletic training.

It's also just a good idea to hit the gym in general for everyone who's able. 

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk


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## jobo (Jul 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There are throws that work reasonably well against a tackle, including some sacrifices. Unlike the quarterback, I don’t care if my knee touches the ground. I don’t even care if my back goes down, so long as it’s with me in control and passes them beyond me.


you mean throws you've done against such an individual in the heat of battle, or throws you think might work, but you've never tried,


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2019)

jobo said:


> you mean throws you've done against such an individual in the heat of battle, or throws you think might work, but you've never tried,


Throws I've used on folks who weren't expecting them (including some monsters, by comparison to me), and I've seen used on skilled opponents. That's about as close as I can hope to get until a monster volunteers to tackle me in actual anger.

If you're hoping to find something someone has used repeatedly and reliably against rampaging linebackers, you're going to be out of luck - there's simply not a good sample size to work with on that.


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Throws I've used on folks who weren't expecting them (including some monsters, by comparison to me), and I've seen used on skilled opponents. That's about as close as I can hope to get until a monster volunteers to tackle me in actual anger.
> 
> If you're hoping to find something someone has used repeatedly and reliably against rampaging linebackers, you're going to be out of luck - there's simply not a good sample size to work with on that.


I've got a reasonably large sample from playing rugby, and if an "athlete" exploded at you from a few feet away, they will close that distance quicker than your reaction times, 2/3  10s ( that if you have particularly quick reactions )of a second, if there a bit slower/ further away, and  you have just enough time to process their movement, you still cant do much about it.

there a thing called a  " hospital ball" were someone passes to you in such a position and there is no other out come than being smashed in to thefloors.

the less they explode, the greater the distance between you, the more your antanticipating, the quicker your reactions, th more chance you have. but if you manage to get your arms in position for a throw, there still likely to just go straight through you, bexause if the energy there explosive movement and considerable mass has given them,,
 I've thrown people charging at me, by grabbing their arms and spinning, hurling them of into the undergrowth, which is just a ruby side step with added throw,, but only where they have either a reasonably long run up, or they weren't particularly athletic( preferably both) allowing me to antipate and get in to position with my arms and feet, if they cat h me flat footed, ie in some sort of stance with my weight planted, then it become border line impossible


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Good structure and good technique handle a lot of attacks before you need a specific defense.
> 
> They are also the best way to counter someone who is stronger than you.


well yes and no, sometimes I annoy my instructor by hooting with derision at some of his / statements, and insististing he tries out on me.

one such where he said adopted this " structure" its impossible for someone  to push you over, I hooted, he invited me to tr, ,  he is a pretty big and heavy bloke, so i,   " exploded" on him from a metre away and knocked his lead leg off the floor and then pumped with my legs and over he went,  " i didn't mean like that" he said " but you can't pick how someone pushes you" i replied, so we agreed " adopt this structure and its quite difficult for some one who weighs less than you to push you over unless they are very strong" was a lot more accurate


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> well yes and no, sometimes I annoy my instructor by hooting with derision at some of his / statements, and insististing he tries out on me.
> 
> one such where he said adopted this " structure" its impossible for someone  to push you over, I hooted, he invited me to tr, ,  he is a pretty big and heavy bloke, so i,   " exploded" on him from a metre away and knocked his lead leg off the floor and then pumped with my legs and over he went,  " i didn't mean like that" he said " but you can't pick how someone pushes you" i replied, so we agreed " adopt this structure and its quite difficult for some one who weighs less than you to push you over unless they are very strong" was a lot more accurate



Good structure isn't static.


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Good structure isn't static.


if it's moving it's good dynamics


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> I've got a reasonably large sample from playing rugby, and if an "athlete" exploded at you from a few feet away, they will close that distance quicker than your reaction times, 2/3  10s ( that if you have particularly quick reactions )of a second, if there a bit slower/ further away, and  you have just enough time to process their movement, you still cant do much about it.
> 
> there a thing called a  " hospital ball" were someone passes to you in such a position and there is no other out come than being smashed in to thefloors.
> 
> ...


Rugby isn't the same situation. Some similarities, but not the same. I've seen some of these actually used in MMA fights at pretty high levels, so they do work against athletes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 11, 2019)

jobo said:


> well yes and no, sometimes I annoy my instructor by hooting with derision at some of his / statements, and insististing he tries out on me.
> 
> one such where he said adopted this " structure" its impossible for someone  to push you over, I hooted, he invited me to tr, ,  he is a pretty big and heavy bloke, so i,   " exploded" on him from a metre away and knocked his lead leg off the floor and then pumped with my legs and over he went,  " i didn't mean like that" he said " but you can't pick how someone pushes you" i replied, so we agreed " adopt this structure and its quite difficult for some one who weighs less than you to push you over unless they are very strong" was a lot more accurate


You're wanting his words to mean what you think they mean, though. He's making a point about what a given structure can do for you. You're wanting to nitpick his exact wording, rather than trying to learn something. Sure, he overstated the point a bit, but you don't bother to look for what is meant.


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Rugby isn't the same situation. Some similarities, but not the same. I've seen some of these actually used in MMA fights at pretty high levels, so they do work against athletes.


well they wwork against good athletes perhaps, when done by other better athletes. that's not the same as you or most other people on here,throwing a line backer, is it


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You're wanting his words to mean what you think they mean, though. He's making a point about what a given structure can do for you. You're wanting to nitpick his exact wording, rather than trying to learn something. Sure, he overstated the point a bit, but you don't bother to look for what is meant.


his words were try and push me over, which I did, if I can push him over when he weighs 50lbs more than me, then some little guy can push me over, so I did le.arn something, don't stand like that in a pushing !match, perhaps he learned the same tHing !


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> his words were try and push me over, which I did, if I can push him over when he weighs 50lbs more than me, then some little guy can push me over, so I did le.arn something, don't stand like that in a pushing !match, perhaps he learned the same tHing !


Or maybe you missed what he was trying to teach.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2019)

jobo said:


> his words were try and push me over, which I did, if I can push him over when he weighs 50lbs more than me, then some little guy can push me over, so I did le.arn something, don't stand like that in a pushing !match, perhaps he learned the same tHing !



So is your instructor any sort of decent wrestler?

Someone who would actually know how to stand?


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## jobo (Jul 12, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Or maybe you missed what he was trying to teach.


it's my learning style to challenge what I'm told, not facts, though some times facts turn out to be not so factual, when you require them to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but the application and interpretation of those fact, to be proved by rational debate or demonstration. that way, when I think I know some thing I'm reasonably sure that what I know is true, and if the thing is reversed and someone does it to me and I'm wrong then I learn from that aas well.

. this became less and less of an issue, the higher up the educational system I got, where chalanging facts and theories is the main point of education. but my school teacher used to get very upset with me, for telling them they were wrong and proving it in front of the class, getting bullied for being clever isn't unusual at school, but its not generally the teacher doing it

authority figures, or at !least people who think they are an authority on the subject in hand, ( like some on here)don't always appreciate this method of learning and get quite cross, when asked to prove something they believe is true, but they have never taken the trouble to prove to themselves. that's how myths are perpetrated andseems particularly prevalent in ma where instructors are above being challenge

like say, thinking they can't be pushed over, and telling others this us so, it doesn't generally cause issues at the dojo, the instructor is amenable to being challenge, though he did get very very annoyed with me, when demonstrating an arm lock on me in front of a visiting instructor from"head office" and no matter how hard he tried, I just twisted my arm and unlocked it and laughed at his attempts, but that's his problem for believing what someone else has told him, with out testing it properly,


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## drop bear (Jul 14, 2019)

jobo said:


> it's my learning style to challenge what I'm told, not facts, though some times facts turn out to be not so factual, when you require them to be proved beyond reasonable doubt, but the application and interpretation of those fact, to be proved by rational debate or demonstration. that way, when I think I know some thing I'm reasonably sure that what I know is true, and if the thing is reversed and someone does it to me and I'm wrong then I learn from that aas well.
> 
> . this became less and less of an issue, the higher up the educational system I got, where chalanging facts and theories is the main point of education. but my school teacher used to get very upset with me, for telling them they were wrong and proving it in front of the class, getting bullied for being clever isn't unusual at school, but its not generally the teacher doing it
> 
> ...



For us we do demo, drill, resisted, sparring pretty much. 

So there is that opportunity to lab test but also some time to get a handle on the technique as well.

I think the issue was your timing.


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