# Scenario/Role play



## stabpunch (Dec 14, 2006)

Let me ask you guys what you would do in this scenario:

Your next door neighbour is having an argument with his son. You can hear the yelling escalate to the point where physical threats are being made and you hear the father say "I can't believe you just hit me". You go next door to investigate and knock on the front door, you are greated by one of the four sons. You are on a first name basis with his father, acquaintances, not necesarrily friends.

1. What items do you bring with you from home?
2. How do you approach this conversation with the 14 year old?
3. What are the environmental factors you consider?


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 14, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Let me ask you guys what you would do in this scenario:



Either stay out of it or call 911.  Going over there is really not a wise thing to do.


----------



## Kacey (Dec 14, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Either stay out of it or call 911.  Going over there is really not a wise thing to do.



I agree.  Putting yourself in danger will not help this situation at all.  Actually, other than calling 911, I'd stay out of it altogether.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 14, 2006)

fair enough, however that isn't the scenario presented as you are already there.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 14, 2006)

the scenario states "You go next door to investigate and knock on the front door, you are greated by one of the four sons". Now in the scenario what would you do. Sure my better judgement would be not to attend. As this is imaginary i am not asking what you would do prior to arriving my questions are numbered 1, 2 and three.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 14, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Either stay out of it or call 911. Going over there is really not a wise thing to do.


 
Ditto....

Scenario Reply: Leave the neighbors house and call 911.


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 14, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> fair enough, however that isn't the scenario presented as you are already there.



That is when you say... "Oops, sorry to disturb you... I will come back later."  Then turn around and get your *** out of there.  Chances are the interruption may calm things a bit, but doing anything more than that could be dangerous.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 14, 2006)

ok ok. so 911 get you on the phone and respond to your call. "is that the phoney martial artist who trains just to be a poser and doesn't want to actually help anyone?" the 911 operator hangs up 'click'. Now as you know you aren't a poser and you front the house, when you knock on the door and are greeted by a 14 year old.

1.What did you bring
2. How do you approach the conversation.
3.What environmental factors are you concerned with?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 14, 2006)

What are you 14-16 yo? Being a martial artist doent make you superman or the police. You heard a domestic incident, you call 911.

1. I bring my cell phone
2. I converse with the dispatcher and tell him what I heard
3. Im concerned that Im not in the street so the cop car doesn't run me over.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 14, 2006)

Nice. What about the fact that the people in the house see you and know you've reported them to the police?


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 14, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Nice. What about the fact that the people in the house see you and know you've reported them to the police?



This is one of those questions like "What technique do I use AFTER I have the knife buried in my chest".


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 15, 2006)

Troll? because my thread has led to conversation in which the great ones are questioned? 

So you're saying, study and train martial arts, but don't ever put yourself in a position to help another person with what you've learned? Just call the cops because it's their job...

You know what a cop would probably agree that you shouldn't get involved, yet if you de-escalate a minor incident they'd probably be happy that they could attend more serious matters. Sure you aren't law enforcement, but where is the harm in benefitting a situation with skills and confidence you have learned through martial arts? (Strategic negotiation, environmental awareness and worst case physical contact). 

As a martial artist if you cannot converse in a pressure situation you are likely to escalate the situation at hand.


----------



## dubljay (Dec 15, 2006)

We are not superheroes.  _ANY_ martial artist who thinks they are is delusional at best.

Let me take a stab at a few things here.  

1)* Probability of a positive outcome .01%* you do intervene.  Physical violence ensues between you and one of the neighbors.  This is the ultimate lose lose situation.  As any LEO can attest domestic disturbances are the worst position to be in.  Making the wild assumption (and wild it is) that you have entered into a physical altercation with one of the neighbors the other family members will just stand there and watch. (Delusion at its best most likely the one you are trying to 'protect' will fight _you_).  The immediate situation has been diffused.  The underlying issue remains untouched and likely to flare again in the (not so distant) future.

2)* Probability of a positive outcome 1-5%* you do intervene.  There is no physical violence; the police are left out of the loop.  The immediate situation is diffused, again most likely leaving the underlying cause untouched.  

In either situation when you put yourself in the midst of things the likelihood of having any sort of positive outcome is very very slim.  Sure perhaps you prevented the immediate situation from getting too out of control (not likely if you walk in with your chest puffed out trying to play the brash hero)

Discretion is the better part of valor.  You want to be a Good Samaritan and help these people?  *Do not *become personally or physically involved in the situation.  Call the police.  This has benefits that extend far beyond the immediate situation.  Like it or not you are not an authority figure to your neighbors.  So what, you practice martial arts, and you can whip your weight in wild cats.  That gives you *no moral authority over others*.  Police represent the moral (majority) authority of the collective society, to whom we are ultimately responsible.  That whom includes you, me, your neighbors, and your grandma too.  Given this, having the police involved ensures certain things.  First and foremost there is a record established of this behavior which is important if or when there are recurring incidents.  Second this opens the possibility that the state will force some sort of counseling to get to the underlying issues which provides increases the safety of those involved for years to come instead of minutes, hours or days.  Furthermore getting the police involved allows for the possibility that there already exists a pattern and given that background information police can assess the proper means of handling the situation.  

Given the context of your scenario I have made the assumption that no one is in _immediate life threatening_ danger (i.e. being stabbed or beaten severely ect.)  If indeed the one or more of the parties is in immediate danger of grievous bodily harm, then by all means risk your own life to save another, that is a personal choice, however the prudent thing to do is to still call 911.


My advice:  Dont ask 'what if' too often, and leave your day-dreaming safely in fantasy land.



Okay time for me to get down off my soap box


----------



## bydand (Dec 15, 2006)

I mentioned troll because you are trying to force your own opinion/agenda down everybodys necks without reguard to honestly posted answers to your original question. Are you trained in Law enforcement issues as well as your MA training?  I'm not and a domestic dispute is, *at best*, a tricky situation that unskilled people have the ability to escalate while trying to help.  Sure you *MIGHT* de-escalate the situation, or you may push the individuals over the edge.  How many times have I heard a LEO friend or family member say that the person they are there to help has turned on them?  the answer to that question is: Way too many to think my *MA* training will de-escalate that type of situation. Part of being a MA is knowing the proper time and place to utilize the skills you have obtained through years of training.  The scenario you presented is not such a time OR place.

AS for questioning the "great ones" as you call them, shoot I'd call into question one of their posts if I felt they had given bad advice or mis-leading information.  Nobody is higher than anybody else on this forum, we all take each other with respect given to Martial Artists, by Martial Artists no matter their post count, or reputation bars from what I have seen.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 15, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> What are you 14-16 yo? Being a martial artist doent make you superman or the police. You heard a domestic incident, you call 911.
> 
> 1. I bring my cell phone
> 2. I converse with the dispatcher and tell him what I heard
> 3. Im concerned that Im not in the street so the cop car doesn't run me over.


 
this has worked in the past for me except the dispatcher could hear the disturbance over my phone. How close are you willing to get to the fire to help pull the person out? 

I am no superhero my powers are only observation and reporting as a citizen. However in doing so you can become the focus of the angry bad people because you're calling the cops. Sometimes if you don't call the cops and have the balls to deal with a situation yourself you can gain respect from the people you help. It is dangeerous it is not recommended but is is the way i see it.

Making some one do counselling is futile unless they are willing to accept the information and see the need for change.

It might seem foreign to you guys but not everyone likes the cops rocking up to their house. Sometimes they like to find out who called the cops. This is a bad thing if they live next door.


----------



## MJS (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Let me ask you guys what you would do in this scenario:
> 
> Your next door neighbour is having an argument with his son. You can hear the yelling escalate to the point where physical threats are being made and you hear the father say "I can't believe you just hit me". You go next door to investigate and knock on the front door, you are greated by one of the four sons. You are on a first name basis with his father, acquaintances, not necesarrily friends.
> 
> ...


 
Well, for me, I would never go next door.  Why?  I don't know what I may get myself into when I get there.  Do I know for a fact that there are no weapons in the house?  I could get blown away.  Can I know for a fact that the people involved in the domestic will not turn on me?  Now, rather than attempting to aid the son, I could now have 5 people to deal with..the 4 sons and the father.  See where I'm going with this?

Instead, I'd call the police.  Its not my job to mediate their issues, its the job of the police.  Give them as much detail as you possibly can.  Feeding them info. is more of a help to them, than going over youself.  The more you can tell them, the better prepared they'll be upon arriving at the house.  

Mike


----------



## MJS (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> ok ok. so 911 get you on the phone and respond to your call. "is that the phoney martial artist who trains just to be a poser and doesn't want to actually help anyone?" the 911 operator hangs up 'click'. Now as you know you aren't a poser and you front the house, when you knock on the door and are greeted by a 14 year old.
> 
> 1.What did you bring
> 2. How do you approach the conversation.
> 3.What environmental factors are you concerned with?


 
So because we train in the MAs, we're supposed be be Supermen and run around town trying to save everyone?  Sorry, but by calling the police I am in fact helping someone.


----------



## MJS (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Nice. What about the fact that the people in the house see you and know you've reported them to the police?


 
I'm assuming you're talking about the chance of retaliation?  Well, you have 2 choices:

1) If that is a concern then simply don't get involved.

2) If that isn't a concern, then call the police and if something happens at a later time, you deal with that accordingly.

Mike


----------



## MJS (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Troll? because my thread has led to conversation in which the great ones are questioned?
> 
> So you're saying, study and train martial arts, but don't ever put yourself in a position to help another person with what you've learned? Just call the cops because it's their job...
> 
> ...


 
Common sense still needs to be used!  Again, we're not Supermen!  Assessing the situation is something that should always be done, no matter if its dealing with helping someone else or yourself.  What makes you so sure you're capable of de-escalating the situation?  You could put yourslef in a position where you're going to be thinking, "Oh ****!! What did I just get myself into here?!?!"


----------



## MJS (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> this has worked in the past for me except the dispatcher could hear the disturbance over my phone. How close are you willing to get to the fire to help pull the person out?


 
Some domestic calls that I've taken on the phone have had hardly any info. other than them saying that they hear 2 people screaming.  They don't know any names, if there are any weapons...nothing.  The best I can do from there, is check to see if there is any history, ie: past domestics, etc., at that house.  The police are much better prepared than I to handle things like this.  



> I am no superhero my powers are only observation and reporting as a citizen. However in doing so you can become the focus of the angry bad people because you're calling the cops. Sometimes if you don't call the cops and have the balls to deal with a situation yourself you can gain respect from the people you help. It is dangeerous it is not recommended but is is the way i see it.


 
Well, to each his own I guess.  I guess what needs to be asked is, are you willing to accept and deal with the various results?  If you went to the house, armed with a gun and ended up shooting and killing the father because he came at you, are you willing to deal with that outcome?  I'm sure one of the many questions the judge and lawyers would be asking is, "Why did you shoot the guy? Were you not faced with any other options?"  "Why did you go to the house rather than calling the police?"  Its really no different than defending yourself from someone on the street.  Do you not think that if this guys sues you, which he just may do, that you will not be asked if there was anything else you could've done, rather than resort to physical violence?  These are all things to take into consideration.  

As I said above...to each his own.  I'm simply telling you what I would do.  If you choose to act differently, thats fine, again, as long as you're willing to accept the outcome.

Mike


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> So you're saying, study and train martial arts, but don't ever put yourself in a position to help another person with what you've learned?



Not so one can use their new found skill.  See, that is an ego trip.  It is self serving.   IMO, you are wanting to help, not because you want to help, but to serve yourself by using your art.

Didn't anyone ever mention that ego can get you killed?


----------



## bydand (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> this has worked in the past for me except the dispatcher could hear the disturbance over my phone. How close are you willing to get to the fire to help pull the person out?



As close I need to get in order to make an informed decision weather it is a life or death situation and I *may* need to step in and try to help someone, after calling 911; or if it is just a yelling/pushing match in which case you call the pros, everytime and stay out of the situation.



> I am no superhero my powers are only observation and reporting as a citizen. However in doing so you can become the focus of the angry bad people because you're calling the cops. *Sometimes if you don't call the cops and have the balls to deal with a situation yourself you can gain respect from the people you help.* It is dangeerous it is not recommended but is is the way i see it.



The section I bolded disturbs me the most.  Sometime you may be right, other times you may be *DEAD*, and didn't help a damn thing by trying to do something you are not trained to do.



> Making some one do counselling is futile unless they are willing to accept the information and see the need for change.



You are correct in this statement, but you as a neighbor cannot get the person to go to counseling.  Why are you making the decision that the person doesn't want help making a change?  That is a pretty presumptious decision for you to make.



> It might seem foreign to you guys but not everyone likes the cops rocking up to their house. Sometimes they like to find out who called the cops. This is a bad thing if they live next door.



Now you are talking apples and oranges.  What happens in their own home, is usually vastly different that what a person is willing to do to someone else.  If they do bring it to your property or your person, then it is a totally different situation than butting your nose into their house and playing g-man.  I have in the past, and will do again if I need to, stood in full sight, 10 feet from a neighbor and called the Police on them.  Amid the threats from him I just smiled and continued to dial, then explain the situation to the Police Chief who then came right down and took care of the situation.  Was the neighbor mad?  Oh he wanted me dead I think, but the difference is, he already knew I would do what I needed to do, weather call the LEO's, or more.  

You need to grow up a bit, you are acting like a 6 year-old with hurt feelings.  You presented a scenario, got unexpected answers, and are now trying to force your point of view on the rest of us.  We are not buying, drop it already, you are acting like a troll again.  Yes I said the nasty 5 letter word again. TROLL, you stop acting like one, and I'll stop calling you one.  You have had some good posts in the past, get over hurt feelings because you got sound advice from several people that you don't happen to agree with.  And yes I did ding you for your smart-assed answers and behavior on this thread.


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Either stay out of it or call 911. Going over there is really not a wise thing to do.


 
*YES....NEVER* get involved in domestics *unless *you see a neghibor on his front lawn beating his Wife, Son, Daughter..Stay on the phone with the dispatcher until  the marked units arrive and give as MUCH information to the responding units and the dispatcher center as possible...


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Sometimes if you don't call the cops and have the balls to deal with a situation yourself you can gain respect from the people you help.



And....  Just how much respect would you give someone meddling in your personal affairs?



stabpunch said:


> It might seem foreign to you guys but not everyone likes the cops rocking up to their house. Sometimes they like to find out who called the cops. This is a bad thing if they live next door.



I would think this answers the question above.  

Don't flatter yourself.  Respect will not be gained.


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> It might seem foreign to you guys but not everyone likes the cops rocking up to their house. Sometimes they like to find out who called the cops. This is a bad thing if they live next door.


 
Which is why responding units do not deluge that information..When I respond to a domestic and the offending party asks "Just who flipping called you??" I usually answer "That's not your concern!"



Bigshadow said:


> Don't flatter yourself. Respect will not be gained.


 
Damed good post...


----------



## KenpoTex (Dec 15, 2006)

Drac said:


> Which is why responding units do not deluge that information..When I respond to a domestic and the offending party asks "Just who flipping called you??" I usually answer "That's not your concern!"


Furthermore, you can tell the dispatcher that "I do not wish to be contacted."  This way, you eliminate the chance of the neighbor seeing an officer walk up to your front door to talk to you.


I definately agree with those who say to just call the police and keep your nose out of it.  Yeah, if I actually _saw_ someone assaulting a weaker person (wife, child, etc.) I might do something...otherwise, trying to intervene in this type of situation will probably cause nothing but more problems.  Someone made the excellent point that in *many* domestic situations, even the victim will turn against the officer because they consider their private dispute to be just that--private.  If they don't appreciate police "interference," how appreciative are they going to be of your interference?


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> Someone made the excellent point that in *many* domestic situations, even the victim will turn against the officer because they consider their private dispute to be just that--private. If they don't appreciate police "interference," how appreciative are they going to be of your interference?


 
100% correct..I have had victims and well as the offenders get in my face when called to a domestic scene..You can only imagine the reception a private citizen will get for getting involved..


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2006)

In a domestic situation unless you actually witness it you cannot be sure what is going on, you actually have no proof that the father was hitting the son. How do you know it wasn't a computer type game they were playing that got them excited and yelling? Maybe no-one was hit, maybe the son was beating up the father, maybe the mother was the one doing the beating maybe... maybe.......maybe...
The advice given here is the only option, phone the police! (999 here!) if you believe there's a domestic violence situation or have reason for concern.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 15, 2006)

I love it. The cops arent able to do anything, and counseling is useless, but the [trumpet fanfare] MARTIAL ARTIST [/trumpet fanfare] next door coming over, well hes just gonna save the day. 

ROTFLMAO.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> I love it. The cops arent able to do anything, and counseling is useless, but the [trumpet fanfare] MARTIAL ARTIST [/trumpet fanfare] next door coming over, well hes just gonna save the day.
> 
> ROTFLMAO.


 
Does he wear tights and have a cape?


----------



## exile (Dec 15, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> boring...



I know. It often seems that way when you've said something really wrongheaded and all these pesky people keep pointing it out... and then there you are, stuck with defending a position that any 10 year old with common sense could tell you is hopeless...  because you're so worried about gaining `respect' that you can't acknowledge that maybe your premises were pretty hopeless to start with... :sadsong:


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 15, 2006)

If theres any police officers reading, if you were at home off-duty, would you go next door to deal with your neighbors domestic?


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 15, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> If theres any police officers reading, if you were at home off-duty, would you go next door to deal with your neighbors domestic?



I believe a couple of LEOs have already responded to this thread.


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> If theres any police officers reading, if you were at home off-duty, would you go next door to deal with your neighbors domestic?


 
Nope..The problem with domestics has gotten so bad as far as officers becoming targets when attempting to intervien that normally to unit are dispatched..If the dispatcher hears alot of yelling and screaming on the phone then 3 will be sent...Now if it move to the front lawn and I see someone being beaten I'll STILL call it in and add that an off duty is already on scene..


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> If theres any police officers reading, if you were at home off-duty, would you go next door to deal with your neighbors domestic?


 
Very unlikely, unless it was during the day when I was sleeping off nights and they were making a real noise then I'd be pissed and tell them to shut up lol! Luckily I have good neighbours who I've previously terrified into submission as I am that MARTIAL ARTIST! Rofl. 
You need to take a kick bag/dummy out onto your front garden, beat it heavily with all your best moves wearing a pristine white Gi and black belt, plenty of loud kiais and hey presto you've sorted your neighbours out! They will respect you forever now, bowing as you walk past.


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> They will respect you forever now, bowing as you walk past.


 
Excellent...I use to practice with the "chucks" in the backyard..No problems..


----------



## bydand (Dec 15, 2006)

Looks as though if I were to clean my shotgun while wearing my black Gi in my backyard I should have no problem then right?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2006)

Drac said:


> Excellent...I use to practice with the "chucks" in the backyard..No problems..


 
Swords are good too.... if you happen to behead a passing child or two it just increases the respect.
Should be amusing enough for stabpunch to stop being bored and gain repsect.


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> Swords are good too.... if you happen to behead a passing child or two it just increases the respect


 
LOL!!!!!


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

bydand said:


> Looks as though if I were to clean my shotgun while wearing my black Gi in my backyard I should have no problem then right?


 
None what so ever...


----------



## Bigshadow (Dec 15, 2006)

Drac said:


> None what so ever...



Reminds me of my cousin and his father,  who while camping kept being approached by a rainbow person (think hippy) from a neighboring camp, bumming various items of food or whatever, every so often.  While in the middle of one of the visits, my cousin pulls out his .44 mag revolver and begins to clean it at the table.  The guy promptly left and never bothered them again.


----------



## Drac (Dec 15, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Reminds me of my cousin and his father, who while camping kept being approached by a rainbow person (think hippy) from a neighboring camp, bumming various items of food or whatever, every so often. While in the middle of one of the visits, my cousin pulls out his .44 mag revolver and begins to clean it at the table. The guy promptly left and never bothered them again.


 
Go figure????


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 15, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Not so one can use their new found skill. See, that is an ego trip. It is self serving. IMO, you are wanting to help, not because you want to help, but to serve yourself by using your art.
> 
> Didn't anyone ever mention that ego can get you killed?


 
This is an excellent post!  Do not let your ego *run you*.  Instead use common sence and call the police while you monitor the situation and await for their arrival.  This way you could feed information to the dispathcer while the police are on their way.  In this way you are doing something positive while avoiding doing something that could end up negatively.


----------



## exile (Dec 15, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Reminds me of my cousin and his father,  who while camping kept being approached by a rainbow person (think hippy) from a neighboring camp, bumming various items of food or whatever, every so often.  While in the middle of one of the visits, my cousin pulls out his .44 mag revolver and begins to clean it at the table.  The guy promptly left and never bothered them again.



Funny, that... :wink1:


----------



## jdinca (Dec 15, 2006)

Ask a police officer how many times a response to a domestic dispute results on both parties turning on the cops. Now, put yourself in that position as the next door neighbor. Do you think the parties involved would be more, or less likely to go after you for butting in? You run the risk of injury, or even death, or at the very least, becoming part of the problem as opposed to part of the solution.

I understand the desire to help but 911 is the way to go.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 16, 2006)

oh i'd i'd like to leave this thread with an image...

Me, my super hero vigilante mates in the front yard having a barbecue sharpening our swords cleaning our guns. Two kegs of beer. We don't wear our underwear out side although it does show from the top of our baggy jeans. Me polishing my genuine 'owned by John Wayne spurs' (ebay $49) under the shade of my white 10 gallon sherrifs hat.

yall come back now ya hear...


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 16, 2006)

anyone here remember any of this?

Re: Defending the weak 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot of discussion goes on about self defense, but very often I have a completely different concern: being on guard not to defend myself, but others that may need it. 
This is something any moral person should be doing... and not nearly enough people do. It was the source of the boy scout pledge to do a good deed every day - often made fun of, with skits about scouts helping elderly ladies across the street who didn't want to go - but a good moral grounding for any person. Too many children are not taught to look out for anyone but themselves.
And you better REALLY think about getting in the middle of a public domestic dispute, as these are THE most dangerous conflicts to become entangled in (just ask any LEO: one minute they are defending the "victim," the next minute they are defending themselves against the victim while trying to arrest the perp!). 
Happens more often than you can imagine..Now if you see a female being beaten my a male husband or not on duty or not I'm stepping in..
Excerpt:
One dynamic brought forth was the Bystander Effect. This theory speculates that as the number of bystanders increases, the likelihood of any one bystander helping another decreases.
Too true...Someone always suffers because of someone elses inability to act..
Sad but true..`The kind of neigborhood I grew up in has faded into history..You knoe everybody and they knew YOU..If you messed up as a kid you got disciplined by one of the neighbors AND THEN you got it again when you got home... 
That is so true! I remember it being that way when I was a kid. It certainly is far from that today
That is so true! I remember it being that way when I was a kid. It certainly is far from that today. 
You said it... Now we respond to calls because some neighbor YELLED at another neighbor's children...
Come on over to my little town. Still like it was 30 or more years ago around here. Usually that is a bad thing because it means those involved haven't been open to change or growth, but when it comes to neighborhoods, it is the best thing that could happen. Sure, it is a small dumpy little place, but the value of your neighbors are still held in high regard
Dealt with plenty of it before, though. Along with the "he parked on the street in front of my house!" or "their tree dropped leaves into my yard!" and "their making too much noise..."
(Has it ever occurred to some of these folks to knock on their neighbors door and ask them to turn it down or move the car or whatever?)
All of this reminded me of a great example of someone not calling (because they didn't want to bother the police!).


----------



## MJS (Dec 16, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> Furthermore, you can tell the dispatcher that "I do not wish to be contacted." This way, you eliminate the chance of the neighbor seeing an officer walk up to your front door to talk to you.


 
Yes sir, thats correct!!  I take many anonymous calls every day.  There are times that the person gives me the info. but states that they don't want the person to know that they called, but they will talk to the officer on the phone.  

A number of anony. calls have turned into some great arrests. 

Mike


----------



## MJS (Dec 16, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> In a domestic situation unless you actually witness it you cannot be sure what is going on, you actually have no proof that the father was hitting the son. How do you know it wasn't a computer type game they were playing that got them excited and yelling? Maybe no-one was hit, maybe the son was beating up the father, maybe the mother was the one doing the beating maybe... maybe.......maybe...
> The advice given here is the only option, phone the police! (999 here!) if you believe there's a domestic violence situation or have reason for concern.


 
Thats true.  There have been many times when it was people talking loud, etc., but even if the person is not 100% sure, an officer is still sent.  As the person taking these types of calls, I'm not going to assume that its nothing, when in reality it could be an active domestic.


----------



## Drac (Dec 16, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> So you guys don't actually do any martial arts


 
To whom is that remark directed??? How long have YOU studied?? 




			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> Man i'd love to do a seminar with one of you guys


 
Anytime!!!



			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> you can't think of say a verbal judo technique that may diffuse the situation if you were presented with it?


 
Verbal Judo is *BULL..*So tell us how many "Domestic is Progress calls have you responsed to ??? Me, I 've lost count...





			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> Maybe i should ask what do you do in a dark alley when three youths with a knife try to take your wallet?[


 
Have you ever walked a beat in in Inner City??? I have and am still here to tell about it..With no witnesses around there are NO RULES..

If there is a domestic in progress and you want to respond and not call the cops *"Go Fo It"..*


----------



## MJS (Dec 16, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> You can't think of say a verbal judo technique that may diffuse the situation if you were presented with it?


 
What makes you think "verbal Judo" is going to work?  Then what?  



> So you guys don't actually do any martial arts



LOL! You're kidding right?  Dude, I've been training for over 20yrs.  How many years have you put in?




> Maybe the scenario scares you guys because of the REALITY involved?


 
It is not the responsibility of a civilian to respond to a domestic.




> Maybe i should ask what do you do in a dark alley when three youths with a knife try to take your wallet? Oh wait none of us would be alone in a dark alley. If they jumped me i would use the ancient one finger technique of usedafonecalldapolice-fu...


 
Two different scenarios.  In the domestic scenario, YOU are putting yourself directly into harms way.  In the alley scenario, you are minding your own business and harm sought you out.  Its no different than if I'm walking to my car and someone approaches me.  I'm minding my own business. I didn't tell this person to come up to me.



> Go feed weed to a nag so you can get on a high horse somewhere else.


 
Apparently you are not pleased by the replies you're getting.  However, when was the last time you took a phone call during an active domestic?  When was the last time you did anything LEO related?  There are people right here, on this forum, that are cops, dispatchers, in a security related field, etc., that deal with things like this everyday.  You are getting some damn good replies here, but apparently, they're not the replies that you're looking for, therefore, you're resorting to slams.  

Speaking as a member here, not a mod., because I'm involved in this thread, but maybe, just maybe, you should read the posting rules of the forum, and perhaps change the tone of your posts.

Mike


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2006)

Verbal Judo? sounds fun lol!
The "have a go hero" is feted in the newspapers and on the tv news and they are brave to step in but they are quite honestly a police officers nightmare.It is really commendable that a member of the public is brave enough to risk there life but sometimes it is a tragic waste of a good life when it would have been far better to call the police and allow them to deal with the situation. Sometimes doing the_ *right*_ thing is not always the easiest or most obvious thing. 
As for not doing martial arts? Yeah of course we all sit here just being keyboard warriors doling out advice from books! I think the combined life and martial arts wisdom on this forum works out in hundreds of years rather than the few Stabpunch is demonstating. 
If you were to 'defuse' the situation by using violence to *your satisfaction* what would stop the father going back into the house and taking his revenge out on his family. You would have escalated a situation the police could handle into a possible murder/siege scenario.
if you can get to the UK you are very welcome to do a seminar with me, you have a choice between traditional martial arts or MMA. The MMA one would be taken by Ian Freeman (UFC veteran who used to do the doors in Newcastle one of the UKs hardest cities) and my instructor who would also do the trad one. My instructor spent 23 years in the British Army special forces and is now a close protection officer as well as an MMA promoter/instructor. My martial arts aren't too shabby. If you can't get to the UK, I can arrange for you to train with Micheal Bisping who has just arrived in Las Vegas to fight in the next UFC. Nice guy, hard as nails!


----------



## Lisa (Dec 16, 2006)

*ATTENTION ALL MEMBERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Please feel free to you the ignore feature found in each members profile for those members whose posts you do not wish to read.

Thank you.

Lisa Deneka
MartialTalk Super Moderator*


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 16, 2006)

My offer to train with us open to all and wasn't being made disrespectfully to anyone! I really wish I could come and train with some of you, it would be great to see different styles (I've never come across a Kenpo club here) that aren't so common here! We have a young pro fighter we hope will get to UFC and when he does I'm coming across to the the States!
Back on track, being able to do martial arts doesn't mean we automatically are allowed to poke our noses in where we could actually do more harm than good. Walking away from a fight that can be avoided is a mature thing to do, it doesn't mean a person is scared. Most martial artists I know will put it on the line *when they have to *but it's a last result.


----------



## Drac (Dec 16, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> Back on track, being able to do martial arts doesn't mean we automatically are allowed to poke our noses in where we could actually do more harm than good. Walking away from a fight that can be avoided is a mature thing to do, it doesn't mean a person is scared. Most martial artists I know will put it on the line *when they have to *but it's a last result.


 
Very True...


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2006)

Drac said:


> *YES....NEVER* get involved in domestics *unless *you see a neghibor on his front lawn beating his Wife, Son, Daughter..Stay on the phone with the dispatcher until  the marked units arrive and give as MUCH information to the responding units and the dispatcher center as possible...



EXACTLY.

I *AM *a cop.  I've had neighbors get into domestics.  I've gotten directly involved exactly once.  And that was merely to let the woman running from her boyfriend come into my house rather than return to hers while we awaited the cops -- whom I'd already called.  EVERY other time (and there were, sadly, quite a few), I've simply called the police.  They're in uniform.  They've got all their tools available.  And they have full authority.  If someone's not going to get killed by your failing to intervene directly -- CALL THE COPS!

Domestics, especially, can turn very bad very, very fast.  Especially if you stick your nose into the middle of it.  Do you want the whole family that you're trying to "rescue" to decide they need to defend themselves against you?


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2006)

> Originally Posted by stabpunch  View Post
> It might seem foreign to you guys but not everyone likes the cops rocking up to their house. Sometimes they like to find out who called the cops. This is a bad thing if they live next door.
> Which is why responding units do not deluge that information..When I respond to a domestic and the offending party asks "Just who flipping called you??" I usually answer "That's not your concern!"



I usually said "I don't know... I just go where they send me."

Especially in domestics and other calls where retaliation is likely -- we don't say who called us.  As a detective, I go to lengths to avoid going directly to the house that called if I have to do follow up on a case; I'll ask at a few other houses either before or after so that nobody can say "well, the detective went THERE!"


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Let me ask you guys what you would do in this scenario:
> 
> Your next door neighbour is having an argument with his son. You can hear the yelling escalate to the point where physical threats are being made and you hear the father say "I can't believe you just hit me". You go next door to investigate and knock on the front door, you are greated by one of the four sons. You are on a first name basis with his father, acquaintances, not necesarrily friends.
> 
> ...


Stabpunch...

I've just read this entire thread.  It's clear from qoutes that either you or moderators have removed or edited some of your posts.  What's left simply scares me silly.  And it matches posts I've seen of yours elsewhere on MT.

You need a reality check.  Martial arts training doesn't make you physically, morally or mentally superior to anyone, nor is it a license to get involved.  If Batman were real -- he'd be hunted down and arrested, even if it took an entire SWAT unit.  In the real world, the actions of comic book superheroes would only complicate and distract the police department's job.  I have this terrifying image that you'll be walking down the street, see a bank robbery in progress, duck into a nearby phonebooth, and reappear in your gi/dobok/training uniform while shouting "HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY" and precipitate a hostage crisis.  Then, afterwards, you'll look at the carnage, and just be absolutely stunned that the police aren't falling over themselves to thank you and beg your advice.

I can only hope that it's a result of miscommunication due to the limits of this electronic medium, and perhaps youthful exuberance.

In the scenario you posed here -- you have no business running over and sticking your nose in.  There are folks paid to do that; they're called police, sheriffs, troopers and a few other names for law enforcement.  They've got the tools, the training, and the EXPERIENCE to intervene in the safest way possible for everyone.  Your job, unless you see someone in immediate danger of serious bodily harm and especially in a domestic assault, is simply to summon them.  Even if there is someone in immediate danger -- you have to assess whether your direct intervention will make things safer, or simply add another victim.  (You do realize that you could find yourself facing charges like assault & battery, malicious wounding, and false arrest -- or even worse -- based on jumping into the middle of something wrongly?)


----------



## shesulsa (Dec 16, 2006)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

*ADMIN NOTE:

MartialTalk is not in the habit of deleting posts we disagree with or even necessarily those which are inflammatory - this is a careful decision we do not take lightly.  That being said, most of the posts have been restored.

Please take a moment to familiarize yourself with the RTM feature.  It is the little white triangle with a red border and a " ! " in the center.  You'll find it at the top right hand corner of each post.  Should you find a post to be breaking the rules of MT (sniping, physically threatening/challenging, advertising outside of the appropriate forum, etcetera), please feel free to click on that feature, add your reason for reporting the post and submit.  This will send a message to the staff to take a look at that post.

ANY MEMBER CAN USE THE RTM FEATURE.

That said, please take care not to abuse the RTM feature to forward an agenda, make a political point about something, or anything other than notify the staff that rules have been broken by your estimation.

Please also familiarize yourselves with the ignore feature located on each user's profile.

If you have any questions or suggestions, please feel free to start a thread in the User Support Forum or send  PM to a staff member.

Thank you for your attention and for contributing to MartialTalk.

Georgia Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assistant Administrator


----------



## bydand (Dec 16, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> anyone here remember any of this?
> 
> Re: Defending the weak
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...




Yes Troll, I remember these.  They were dealing with nothing like the scenario you put forth, so they are totally out of context for this discussion.  You did a horrible job quoting them so it makes it difficult to read, but as one of those who wrote some of the posts, I would ask you to sit back and really re-read the thread you pulled these from.  If I remember right most of the above was from myself and Drac talking about neighborhoods and the changes that have occured over the years, NOT about running over to the neighbors house and putting ourselves in the middle of something we don't know what is going on.  Whenever the self-serving, ego-driven protion of your personality wants to get some real good advice about what to do during a domestic dispute, re-read THIS thread, there is some solid advice from members with common sense, comments from active LEO's, comments from people who have "been there, done that".  I have no idea how old you really are, and personally, I could care less; but as a member of this forum I would ask you to stop acting like my 4 year-old son when he thinks one of his older brothers is teasing him.  You recived great advice that can and will keep your skin whole, if not hole free.  Sticking your nose in the situation you put forth can very well get you shot, stabbed, beaten, maimed, or a combination of these outcomes.  Sure not 100% of the time, but even a Vegas gambler wouldn't bet on the odds of a favorable outcome of the actions you describe.  And next time you pull a quote from something I posted, make sure it has to do with the same situation you are trying to prove.  I do remember what I write and why, and I will call you (or anybody) on things taken out of context.

Last from me on this issue, you can't force someone to learn if they don't want to, and you cannot argue with a fool.  Both of which is happening here I'm afraid.


----------



## bydand (Dec 16, 2006)

Shesulsa, 

If I am out of line I am truely sorry, and I will try to be better behaved in the future. :asian:

Thanks
Scott.


----------



## Drac (Dec 17, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> EXACTLY.
> 
> I *AM *a cop.
> Domestics, especially, can turn very bad very, very fast. Especially if you stick your nose into the middle of it. Do you want the whole family that you're trying to "rescue" to decide they need to defend themselves against you?


 
You're preaching to the choir Brother...Most domestics are repeat offensives..The dispatch center *KNOWS *how many time we've been there and if there are weapons in the residence and what occured during the previous time officers respoonded.. ( the MA wanna-be-hero nest door didn't think about that)..Plus better than 75% of those involved in a domestic altercation have active warrants and *KNOW IT*..You think they are just going to go easy???

Should I mention the use of drug or alcohol??? We arrested a skinny 19 year old last month who was so jacked up from "wet" cigarettes that he fought 2 of the arresting officers..Imagine attempting to grab a bigger suspect...


----------



## exile (Dec 17, 2006)

Drac said:


> You're preaching to the choir Brother...Most domestics are repeat offensives..The dispatch center *KNOWS *how many time we've been there and if there are weapons in the residence and what occured during the previous time officers respoonded.. ( the MA wanna-be-hero nest door didn't think about that)..Plus better than 75% of those involved in a domestic altercation have active warrants and *KNOW IT*..You think they are just going to go easy???
> 
> Should I mention the use of drug or alcohol??? We arrested a skinny 19 year old last month who was so jacked up from "wet" cigarettes that he fought 2 of the arresting officers..Imagine attempting to grab a bigger suspect...



The whole discussion in this thread so far is a local illustration of a global problemthe vast gulf between reality on the one hand and media consumers' ideas about reality on the other. We've reached a point the the development of our information technology when (1) a vast number of people have access to infotainment media, and (2) that media present an often totally and grotesquely unrealistic picture of the world, having nothing to do with the detailed experience of the relative small fraction of the population who know anything about how things actually work. Most people have no idea what can happen in the course of a domesticme included, which is why I am happy to leave domestic interventions to _those who know something about them_. The problem is that many people [/I]think[/I] they know something about them because they have images of themimages dreamed up and delivered by only marginally accurate `cop show' writers and producers, or movies, or other fiction. A lot of people similarly are probably under the impression that they know what actually happens in a hospital emergency room, because of _ER_...

There is a stock response to this complaint I've seen before: c'mon, lighten up, people know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. Well, I think the evidence is that they don't. Sometime in the 1970s, a Canadian newspaper conducted a survey among its readers (only responses listing a residence in Canada counted) asking them whether, in a very loaded and ominous legal situation in a Canadian, they would plead the Fifth Amendment (from a lawyer's point of view by far the safer choice, the way the case was set up). The overwhelming majority of the respondents insisted that in that situation, of _course_ they would plead the Fifth. The paper then interviewed a sample of respondents, in the alleged interest of getting them to expand on the reasons for their choice. These people were virtually all Canadian citizens, living in Canada, and happily under the impression that they could plead the Fifth Amendment to the U.S. constitution. It emerged that their conception of their legal rights was heavily influenced by what they'd seen on law programs, from _Perry Mason_ to _Law and Order_, and a huge variety of cop showsall set and produced in the U.S., of course. This is just one a vast number of indicators I've run across that people really have no clue as to what's going on outside that small part of life that they have some first-hand competence in...

A lot of the time, no harm donemaybe just a bit of embarrassent. But anyone who's read this thread and taken in what the LEOs and security people have been saying should, assuming they're playing with a full deck, realize that mostly your intervention in a domestic will very likely make things worse for everyone, especially _you_. The more general point that it's probably a serious mistake to hold very strong views and attitudes about situations which you don't know anything about and have never had to deal with on a regular basis...


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2006)

bydand said:


> Yes Troll, I remember these.  They were dealing with nothing like the scenario you put forth, so they are totally out of context for this discussion.  You did a horrible job quoting them so it makes it difficult to read, but as one of those who wrote some of the posts, I would ask you to sit back and really re-read the thread you pulled these from.





He did a fantastic job if his goal was to show the dangers of quoting out of context, because a few of those quotes were mine.  While that discussion did indeed have the theme of whether or not to get involved and come to someone's defense -- he's managed to find things that he feels support his view (and he still got quite a few that stressed that DIRECT intervention wasn't necessarily the smartest thing to do), yank them out, and paste them in a riff that can be said to distort the discussion.

Maybe he's a reporter in "real" life?:wink1:


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2006)

"There is a stock response to this complaint I've seen before: c'mon, lighten up, people know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. Well, I think the evidence is that they don't." 

I think is is so true! We have long running soap operas here which are very popular, most of us know that it's fiction! The TV companies however regularly receive job applications to work in the shops/pubs/businesses when a fictional character says theres a vacancy. One actress tells the story of when her fictional husband was having an affair on screen people would come up to her in the street to warn her what her 'husband' was up to despite her being with her real husband and children, they were just ignored! Another Australian actress had to actually leave the soap she was in as she received so much hatemail and aggression when she was out it was causing her too much stress.That's extremely sad and an indictment of the power of the 'box'.
  A willingness to put yourself into danger to help others is to be commended but and it's a huge *but*, you must do the best thing for everyone, in the scenerio given the best thing is to call the police. ("you" is not aimed at anyone in particular btw)


----------



## exile (Dec 17, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> "There is a stock response to this complaint I've seen before: c'mon, lighten up, people know the difference between fantasy/fiction and reality. Well, I think the evidence is that they don't."
> 
> I think is is so true! We have long running soap operas here which are very popular, most of us know that it's fiction! The TV companies however regularly receive job applications to work in the shops/pubs/businesses when a fictional character says theres a vacancy. One actress tells the story of when her fictional husband was having an affair on screen people would come up to her in the street to warn her what her 'husband' was up to despite her being with her real husband and children, they were just ignored! Another Australian actress had to actually leave the soap she was in as she received so much hatemail and aggression when she was out it was causing her too much stress.That's extremely sad and an indictment of the power of the 'box'.



Perfect example, Tez. A lot of times, emotional intensity seems to trump people's sensewhich more and more I'm coming to think of as quite fragileof the difference between truth and fiction. This is espcially true in the kind of case you bring up, where many people have intense emotional investments in the storylineevery year there are a number of suicide attempts that turn out to have been triggered by something on some soap opera or other which proved overwhelming to the people who made those attempts, to the point where it had the same status in their minds as something which had happened to them in real life. In a sense, for each of those people, the soap had _become_ real life....



Tez3 said:


> A willingness to put yourself into danger to help others is to be commended but and it's a huge *but*, you must do the best thing for everyone, in the scenerio given the best thing is to call the police. ("you" is not aimed at anyone in particular btw)



A thousand times yes... what has impressed me in this discussion is the evident sincerity of our LEOs in telling us, in effect, `Please stay out of the way!' Our job is to notify them, and then do just that...


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2006)

Drac said:


> You're preaching to the choir Brother...Most domestics are repeat offensives..The dispatch center *KNOWS *how many time we've been there and if there are weapons in the residence and what occured during the previous time officers respoonded.. ( the MA wanna-be-hero nest door didn't think about that)..Plus better than 75% of those involved in a domestic altercation have active warrants and *KNOW IT*..You think they are just going to go easy???
> 
> Should I mention the use of drug or alcohol??? We arrested a skinny 19 year old last month who was so jacked up from "wet" cigarettes that he fought 2 of the arresting officers..Imagine attempting to grab a bigger suspect...


Been there, too...

One of the closest times I've come to shooting someone was a domestic last Christmas season...  It was only a verbal argument (or at least we had no evidence of physical attack), but as I'm interviewing the guy to see what happened, he started to get pissed and antsy, and didn't understand why I was reluctant to let him go into his kitchen with all its knives to get a drink of water...  We got lucky, and my partner (a veteran officer on his second cop career, and old enough to have that father-figure effect on the guy) calmed him down -- but neither of us were sure that someone wasn't going to die that day.

On-lookers, take note -- this was a VERBAL argument for the couple that almost became physical when someone intervened.  We got the situation handled by virtue of experience and training, which most civilians lack, and some dumb luck.  If one of the other guys on my squad had been there that day...  I know somebody would have been badly hurt or killed.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 17, 2006)

The thing about this scenario too is that the neighbours could be perfectly decent people without police records or a history of violence. It could simply be an argument with a teenage boy going through a difficult time. _Again_ in this situation having someone bursting in on them intent on doling out justice would be disastrous. _Again_ the police are the best people to call as they are well able to recognise and distinguish between criminal behaviour and a family who are having a hard time with a teen.


----------



## bydand (Dec 17, 2006)

From the Ludington Daily News. Ludington, MI (ludingtondailynews.com) This week-end.  

Goes along with this thread.  Leave it to the Police! If you barged into this situation without the proper training and experiance there would be 3 people being treated for wounds.



> Baldwin man in jail after Idlewild stabbing
> Reporter: Joe Boomgaard
> 
> YATES TWP. &#8212; A Baldwin man is in Lake County Jail today charged with attempted murder after a stabbing at 11:19 p.m. Friday in Idlewild, a Lake County Sheriff&#8217;s report stated.
> ...



"aggravated domestic felonious assault - attempted murder"  doesn't start out at that level, but that is the level this "domestic dispute" ended at.  A well-intentioned, but wrong neighbor would have just made it even harder for the follow-up investigation.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

ok guys cool down sheesh. This thread was started as a hypothetical scenario. yes i am young in martial arts. no i am not law enforcement, although the people in the security industry are very keen to have me join their team, i would prefer to work offshore.

Now the fact that most of you guys are from the US it is constituional your right to bear arms. Here in sunny oz you are more likely to get taken by a shark, croc or someother nasty natural threat. 13% of robberies are done with a knife and 7% a fire arm, that's from our National bureau of statistics.

Ok you're right in that situation call the police, it is the advice i'd give to anyone it's sensible. I have called the police to next door previously it didn't provide the magic wand solution that i would have expected. Things from this thread i have learned or didn't think about is the record keeping and formal proceedures in place. Although i still feel that in some cases a uniform can cause problems, in this case the people are of indigenous decent, this means they are aboriginal australians, for whom the law do not get along with so well there is usually a lack of respect between the two parties.

However... This was a fictional scenario to generate ideas for a reality based situation. No i didn't want to hear about calling the police, that isn't martial it's marshall. Communication, environment, surpirse factors.. How many reality based martial applications are available in the given scenario are boundless depending your thought process and mindset.

Finally as this is way out of hand. Many of you believing that i am some rampant vigilante with a god complex and god forbid my underwear on the outside. Let me explain the following...

YES. I did attend a situation that fits this scenario. Although i didn't run in there with my forty inch biceps pumped ready to rumble it out and make examples as i am not the SUPERhero brain dead martial artist you are trying to incinuate. Anyway.
My neighbour 'Jack' had been drinking his sons were there, they were arguing. Not wanting to call the police for my own personal reasons i decided to investigate. I took pepper spray and my mobile(cell) phone funnily enough with the police number already qued up. Now on arriving i was met by his fourteen year old son who i didn't know. I asked if Jack was in, the boy was shocked as he expected me to be off my brain about the yelling. Jack came out, he hugged me and was crying, now for those of you who mixed it up the son was the one that hit the dad. I sat Jack down and asked him what was going on, removing him from the situation. He made the complaints to me of his sons activities and was particualrly distressed of the state of the room where they hang out with their mates. I investigated the room and one of the sons friends came up, not taking his side i mentioned that it looked in a reasonable condition. There was graffiti canvases in the room, i mentioned that i used to write as a youngster and he wanted to show me their books, next time i say. The son eventually comes out of the house as his mum had arrived, he asked me to talk to Jack saying he was drunk, to which i agreed and told him the best bet was to call back tomorrow and talk to his dad when they were both sober.. So I was lucky, i know this! 
Trouble is all i wanted to establish was other factors present in this scenario... I have learned two things, the record keeping of the police and the fact that the family will band together. What no-one was willing to do when this was fictitional was present any actual martial mindsets other than call the police, which is just common sense and not necessarily what i'd call martial mindset. 
I am tired of threads called multiple attackers or judo v karate, i was just trying to present an interesting scenario, next time i'll tone the scenario down so that we talk martial.
Seeya there


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 18, 2006)

I think when someone presents a hypothetical situation to the forum they will get the best advice people can give which in this case was call the police. If specific martial arts advice is sought, a situation should be presented that would/could be solved by using martial arts. Posting up a hypothetical situation then explaining it was actually real, having been dealt with already and all the advice was unnecessary and to a large part unwanted is just really playing people along. I don't think anyone here misread the post and we did understand that it had been the teen hitting the father. 
I have a friend who's a police officer in Australia, they are armed out there as in America. Funnily enough he's never seen a shark or a crocodile.


----------



## Drac (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> no i am not law enforcement, although the people in the security industry are very keen to have me join their team


 
Yes you have that rent-a cop mentality 



			
				stapunch said:
			
		

> i would prefer to work offshore


 
Go where the money is..Hell I would




			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> Although i still feel that in some cases a uniform can cause problems


 
Not a BIG a problem as a well meaning neighbor rushing in




			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> How many reality based martial applications are available in the given scenario are boundless depending your thought process and mindset


 
How many??? I couldn't count them..I have been an MA for 30 years and a cop for 20..You learn an application or 2 during those years...





			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> So I was lucky, i know this!


 
Yes you were...




			
				stabpunch said:
			
		

> What no-one was willing to do when this was fictitional was present any actual martial mindsets other than call the police, which is just common sense and not necessarily what i'd call martial mindset.


 
 MA mindset?? STAY ALIVE and out of COURT...


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 18, 2006)

Ive always thought that MA was about "self" defense or defense of others in extreme need. The key being "defense" as in you actually see someone getting beaten or you have to act or someone is going to be hurt. In this scenario you dont see someone getting attacked, you dont even hear someone screaming for help. In this scenario you are going to investigate and see whats going on. Thats entirely a police officers job, not a "martial artists".


----------



## Drac (Dec 18, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Ive always thought that MA was about "self" defense or defense of others in extreme need. The key being "defense" as in you actually see someone getting beaten or you have to act or someone is going to be hurt. In this scenario you dont see someone getting attacked, you dont even hear someone screaming for help. In this scenario you are going to investigate and see whats going on. Thats entirely a police officers job, not a "martial artists".


 
Thank you...


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

When i started this thread i had no idea it would go this far. I am still of the stance that if you are in a position to help then you should do so. last night i was a witness to another domestic situation.

I can't find the post in this thread, i recall someone mentioning that they were standing there with the guy yelling at them still on the fone to the police. This to me was the most helpful post in this thread. As you know i will get close to the fire in order to establish the extent of the situation at hand, i feel it is important that prior to involving the police you need to understand what is happening. Again it is just me here. So to get close enough to the situation to asses it i made out as if i was going for my mail, phone in hand the intention of report rather than becoming involved. Again it was a non-event that subsided by itself.

So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.

I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern. 

When i started this thread i wasn't looking for advice perse. I was looking for input and ideas, maybe different to the ones i already know. In trying to direct the thread away from the immediate call the police response which is reasonable and sensible advice, i have offended participants of the thread for which i apologise. 

This has been more valuable an experience to me than i could have gained from my original attempt of insight. Now i have a concept to include into our sylabus. Amongst the drilling and sparring and scenario situations i will be looking to include with my instructors help a component that deals with reporting to the police. Hopefully this will benefit my fellow students.

I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.

The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 18, 2006)

If you are teaching other people that you are doing them a great disservice.


----------



## Kacey (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.



Then you have learned nothing from the responses you have received, and will continue to put yourself in danger, and risk escalation of the situation by your untrained intrusion into delicate situations.



stabpunch said:


> I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern.
> 
> *I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.*
> 
> The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.



If you do not take the advice of the several LEOs who have responded in this thread, as it appears you will not be doing, then you have no one but yourself to blame when your choices go awry, as they are quite likely to do.  Simply because you would "like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality" does not make it the right choice for other persons in other situations.  If you teach others this mistaken mindset, then you make yourself responsible for their injuries - which are quite likely to occur.  You, and most especially they, have my condolences for the injuries that are quite likely to occur in the future.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> ok guys cool down sheesh. This thread was started as a hypothetical scenario. yes i am young in martial arts. no i am not law enforcement, although the people in the security industry are very keen to have me join their team, i would prefer to work offshore.



Your hypothetical scenario started with an erroneous and unwise action.  You got advice that wasn't.  Sorry it didn't match your ideal...  Oh... and if you decide to go into "the security industry" -- I strongly urge you to understand your role and authority.  I just finished a prosecution of a guard who didn't understand he wasn't a cop...



> Now the fact that most of you guys are from the US it is constituional your right to bear arms. Here in sunny oz you are more likely to get taken by a shark, croc or someother nasty natural threat. 13% of robberies are done with a knife and 7% a fire arm, that's from our National bureau of statistics.



What does this have to do with the scenario you presented?  The simple truth is that gun laws only affect the law abiding, whatever the US Constitution may say.  Or I wouldn't find so many illegal aliens and convicted felons with guns...



> Ok you're right in that situation call the police, it is the advice i'd give to anyone it's sensible. I have called the police to next door previously it didn't provide the magic wand solution that i would have expected. Things from this thread i have learned or didn't think about is the record keeping and formal proceedures in place.



Gee... You mean there might actually be a reason to let the people with all the tools and training handle problems?  Who'dve thunk it?:idunno:



> Although i still feel that in some cases a uniform can cause problems, in this case the people are of indigenous decent, this means they are aboriginal australians, for whom the law do not get along with so well there is usually a lack of respect between the two parties.



There are lots of folks in every nation who don't get along with the police, and there are plenty of times that the fault lies on both sides of the equation.  All the same -- there's a reason for calling the cops in many situations rather than trying to handle it yourself.   You're worried about repercussions if the cops come; isn't it kind of possible that there'd be repercussions for sticking your nose into their business?





> However... This was a fictional scenario to generate ideas for a reality based situation.



Again -- you started from a faulty premise, choosing a course of action.  Maybe it would have come across differently if you'd said something to the effect that your neighbors are fighting, and you stupidly get involved; what do you do now.  But that's not the route you chose.  And then you began to argue with people who do know better, instead of acknowledging the faulty premise.  Maybe that could have been handled better, huh? :idea: Think all but openly challenging the manhood of anyone who wouldn't butt into the situation just maybe could cause a problem?  



> No i didn't want to hear about calling the police, that isn't martial it's marshall. Communication, environment, surpirse factors.. How many reality based martial applications are available in the given scenario are boundless depending your thought process and mindset.



Martial arts is a many-fold path.  Only some of them involve directly confronting other people's problems.  And, of those that do, one of the primary rules is generally to know when to intervene.  Perhaps your familiar with Sun Tsu?  "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."



> Finally as this is way out of hand. Many of you believing that i am some rampant vigilante with a god complex and god forbid my underwear on the outside. Let me explain the following...



Bud -- that's the image you painted of yourself, in this thread and in others.  Your stubborn argument (which you seem to be maintaining) that you didn't care about calling the police, and that apparently anyone who wouldn't handle something like this on their own created that impression.  And, quite frankly, I'm still not convinced that there's not some truth to it.  


> YES. I did attend a situation that fits this scenario. Although i didn't run in there with my forty inch biceps pumped ready to rumble it out and make examples as i am not the SUPERhero brain dead martial artist you are trying to incinuate. Anyway.
> My neighbour 'Jack' had been drinking his sons were there, they were arguing. Not wanting to call the police for my own personal reasons i decided to investigate. I took pepper spray and my mobile(cell) phone funnily enough with the police number already qued up. Now on arriving i was met by his fourteen year old son who i didn't know. I asked if Jack was in, the boy was shocked as he expected me to be off my brain about the yelling. Jack came out, he hugged me and was crying, now for those of you who mixed it up the son was the one that hit the dad. I sat Jack down and asked him what was going on, removing him from the situation. He made the complaints to me of his sons activities and was particualrly distressed of the state of the room where they hang out with their mates. I investigated the room and one of the sons friends came up, not taking his side i mentioned that it looked in a reasonable condition. There was graffiti canvases in the room, i mentioned that i used to write as a youngster and he wanted to show me their books, next time i say. The son eventually comes out of the house as his mum had arrived, he asked me to talk to Jack saying he was drunk, to which i agreed and told him the best bet was to call back tomorrow and talk to his dad when they were both sober.. So I was lucky, i know this!
> Trouble is all i wanted to establish was other factors present in this scenario... I have learned two things, the record keeping of the police and the fact that the family will band together. What no-one was willing to do when this was fictitional was present any actual martial mindsets other than call the police, which is just common sense and not necessarily what i'd call martial mindset.
> I am tired of threads called multiple attackers or judo v karate, i was just trying to present an interesting scenario, next time i'll tone the scenario down so that we talk martial.
> Seeya there



You wanted to establish "factors", but you didn't explain or discuss them.  You wanted to pose a realistic situation -- but you didn't feel like accepting realistic advice.  Then you went hunting for "support" that was out of context in other threads.  You got lucky when you stuck your nose into something; it could very, very easily have ended very, very differently.  And, in case you're wondering, I'm acquainted with cops from around the world.  Domestics are one of the most similar events you'll find...

You talk about martial mindsets; perhaps you'd care to explain what you mean by that?  Are you at all familiar with Forest Morgan's book *Living the Martial Way*?  Might I suggest adding that to your reading list, along with some of David Grossman's books and research?  (http://killology.com)  You want to talk about communication strategies; which ones?  Do you know what Verbal Judo is?  Or whether it can work?

You might find that you're not as knowledgable or prepared as you think you are.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> If you are teaching other people that you are doing them a great disservice.


 
that is one opinion


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> > So the tool for my mindset which i have gained from this thread is to take that confidence and use it to get close to the fire, go towards it as it were, inorder to report rather than respond. Yes Drac has a point i do run the rent a cop mentality. It's not that extreme unfortunatly my personality dictates that if i have the ability to help that i must use my ability to do so.
> >
> > I will continue to aproach the fire as close as my personal confidence will allow. However i now have a greater understanding to a general report rather than respond pattern.
> 
> ...


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

Kacey said:


> Then you have learned nothing from the responses you have received, and will continue to put yourself in danger, and risk escalation of the situation by your untrained intrusion into delicate situations.


 
Did you read the post? Last night i was investigated with the goal of reporting. The incident subsided, they actually reconcilled their differences without intervention.




Kacey said:


> If you do not take the advice of the several LEOs who have responded in this thread, as it appears you will not be doing, then you have no one but yourself to blame when your choices go awry, as they are quite likely to do. Simply because you would "like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality" does not make it the right choice for other persons in other situations. If you teach others this mistaken mindset, then you make yourself responsible for their injuries - which are quite likely to occur. You, and most especially they, have my condolences for the injuries that are quite likely to occur in the future.


 
Again did you even read my post you're firing these shots at a ghost. The inclusion of a reporting proceedure and giving people information to make them feel confident in reporting incidents. How is that irresponsible?


----------



## Kacey (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Did you read the post?


I read your post, and despite the positive outcome you gained from *not* intervening directly, you continue to state that intervening directly is your preferred response; therefore, I find no reason to believe that you have learned anything from the advice proffered on this thread or your own experience - your own statements prove otherwise.


----------



## bluemtn (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Did you read the post? Last night i was investigated with the goal of reporting. The incident subsided, they actually reconcilled their differences without intervention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

It's irresponsible in the sense that you have purposefully placed yourself in danger.  Yes, we are aware that the situations had in fact calmed down, but that is not the point everyone has been trying to make.  Point:  What if the situations escalated?  You found yourself looking at any weapon- be it knife, gun, or whatever!  You successfully defend yourself, seriously injure someone, and therefore you get sued.  It happens-  rarely, but it happens...  What is most likely to happen?  You're caught off guard, and get injured or killed.  Then you have trespassing laws to deal with, also...

Ask yourself-  Is it really worth physically placing yourself in danger, when you can just as easily call for help from your own residence?


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> Your hypothetical scenario started with an erroneous and unwise action. You got advice that wasn't. Sorry it didn't match your ideal... Oh... and if you decide to go into "the security industry" -- I strongly urge you to understand your role and authority. I just finished a prosecution of a guard who didn't understand he wasn't a cop...


 
Sure i am putting people out of their safe ideal socially responsible postition. Ok not saying you're a drinker. What if you'd been drinking and your 'normal' response isn't present, are you infallible? People get into irrational situations otherwise you'd call earth utopia, there isn't much work for leo's and lawyer in utopia.



jks9199 said:


> What does this have to do with the scenario you presented? The simple truth is that gun laws only affect the law abiding, whatever the US Constitution may say. Or I wouldn't find so many illegal aliens and convicted felons with guns...


 
unclear of your intention here




jks9199 said:


> Gee... You mean there might actually be a reason to let the people with all the tools and training handle problems? Who'dve thunk it?:idunno:


 
Please don't belittle me. My opinions and views are as valuable as yours. Whether you think i have tools and training to deal with situations is irrevelvant




jks9199 said:


> There are lots of folks in every nation who don't get along with the police, and there are plenty of times that the fault lies on both sides of the equation. All the same -- there's a reason for calling the cops in many situations rather than trying to handle it yourself. You're worried about repercussions if the cops come; isn't it kind of possible that there'd be repercussions for sticking your nose into their business?


 
Again did you read my post?






jks9199 said:


> Again -- you started from a faulty premise, choosing a course of action. Maybe it would have come across differently if you'd said something to the effect that your neighbors are fighting, and you stupidly get involved; what do you do now. But that's not the route you chose. And then you began to argue with people who do know better, instead of acknowledging the faulty premise. Maybe that could have been handled better, huh? :idea: Think all but openly challenging the manhood of anyone who wouldn't butt into the situation just maybe could cause a problem?


 
I have apologised for my post that incinuated the poser martial artist. Perhaps your failuer to read or understand my post has lead to you bringing this up. Or are you trying to rub my nose in it? Do they actually know better, how can you say this without being present as the situation progressed? 




jks9199 said:


> Martial arts is a many-fold path. Only some of them involve directly confronting other people's problems. And, of those that do, one of the primary rules is generally to know when to intervene. Perhaps your familiar with Sun Tsu? "He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."


 
Again you question my assessment of the situation. It's as though you are unwilling to let go of your side of the discussion and it is clouding your perception. "do not allow your view to taint the vision of positive outcome' as quoted from stabpunch 18.12.06.




jks9199 said:


> Bud -- that's the image you painted of yourself, in this thread and in others. Your stubborn argument (which you seem to be maintaining) that you didn't care about calling the police, and that apparently anyone who wouldn't handle something like this on their own created that impression. And, quite frankly, I'm still not convinced that there's not some truth to it.


 
Please don't call me bud it is belittling me further. The impression i am creating is defined by the interpretation of others, wheteher right or wrong you need to separate from your argument stand point to understand what is being written and it's intent and not cloud it with your own stand point.



jks9199 said:


> You wanted to establish "factors", but you didn't explain or discuss them. You wanted to pose a realistic situation -- but you didn't feel like accepting realistic advice. Then you went hunting for "support" that was out of context in other threads. You got lucky when you stuck your nose into something; it could very, very easily have ended very, very differently. And, in case you're wondering, I'm acquainted with cops from around the world. Domestics are one of the most similar events you'll find...


 
I wasn't looking for advice. Why does everyone expect that i need their advice. I was looking for ideas as i have mentioned tirelessly in this thread. How many times do i have to write that *calling the police is reasonable and wise. *My next thread will be much less controversial i am sure.



jks9199 said:


> You talk about martial mindsets; perhaps you'd care to explain what you mean by that? Are you at all familiar with Forest Morgan's book *Living the Martial Way*? Might I suggest adding that to your reading list, along with some of David Grossman's books and research? (http://killology.com) You want to talk about communication strategies; which ones? Do you know what Verbal Judo is? Or whether it can work?
> 
> You might find that you're not as knowledgable or prepared as you think you are.


 
Again you post that because i have an opinion that differs from the general consensus that i am uninformed. I refuse to provide my credentials for you to further assassinate my character. You might say my unwillingness comes from a lack of credential. This wouldn't be altogether untrue. Yet why would i provide you with further information about my self as to make me out as a lesser?


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

Kacey said:


> I read your post, and despite the positive outcome you gained from *not* intervening directly, you continue to state that intervening directly is your preferred response; therefore, I find no reason to believe that you have learned anything from the advice proffered on this thread or your own experience - your own statements prove otherwise.


 
*You are not understanding my direction. Investigation of the situation yes. If i complained about every domestic situation at my appartment block we'd soon get a police station in the court yard.  My intention is to report incidences unless they directly involve me, in which case should i have the opportunity to report i will. Can i make my postition any more clear to you?*


----------



## exile (Dec 18, 2006)

Stabpunchlook, this whole thing is very simple. You are making it much more complicated than it is. The main idea is, when you see something going on which looks like trouble, and you have no idea of what works in that situation, and there are people around who _do_ know what to do in that situation, you call on those people, and they come and help. By doing that, you are doing the most helpful thing you can possibly do. The impulse to go in yourself is self-indulgent in the extreme: you are trying to be heroic, but since you don't understand what such situations involve, you are very likely to bugger things up royally for everyone concerned. If you want to be a good guy, someone who deserves respect, then do the best thing that can be done: call in professional law enforcement officers who have dozens or more such cases under their belts, who are trained by other LEOs with maybe _hundreds_ of such cases, i.e., people _who know what they're doing._ Get your mind around the basic idea that you don't know what you're doing in such a situation, that you don't have the `clinical experience', as it would be called in the medical profession, and therefore the best thing to do, if you really want best for the people involved in the situation, is to alert those who do know what they're doing, and let _them_ handle it. Doesn't that make more sense than rushing into something you have no competence to deal with, and very likely getting yourself killed, or sued, or screamed at... or _all_ of the above???


----------



## Kacey (Dec 18, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> When i started this thread i had no idea it would go this far. I am still of the stance that if you are in a position to help then you should do so. last night i was a witness to another domestic situation.
> 
> I can't find the post in this thread, i recall someone mentioning that they were standing there with the guy yelling at them still on the fone to the police. This to me was the most helpful post in this thread. As you know i will get close to the fire in order to establish the extent of the situation at hand, i feel it is important that prior to involving the police you need to understand what is happening. Again it is just me here. So to get close enough to the situation to asses it i made out as if i was going for my mail, phone in hand the intention of report rather than becoming involved. Again it was a non-event that subsided by itself.
> 
> ...





stabpunch said:


> *You are not understanding my direction. Investigation of the situation yes. If i complained about every domestic situation at my appartment block we'd soon get a police station in the court yard.  My intention is to report incidences unless they directly involve me, in which case should i have the opportunity to report i will. Can i make my postition any more clear to you?*



Can you make it clearer?  Not if you don't stop "yelling".  Are you directly contradicting yourself?  Most definitely.  Please excuse me if the contradictions inherent in these two posts leave me confused; I find contradictory statements difficult to reconcile, especially the portions marked in color, to differentiate them from the bold you used for the latter post.

If you are including calling the police "amongst" the potential response scenarios, and not as the primary response, then you are doing your students a disservice and placing them in danger.  What you do for yourself is your own problem - what you do for your students makes them responsible for their future choices, if such choices are based on your instruction.  If they are unclear as to the distinction between potential response scenarios and appropriate response scenarios, then you have made yourself responsible for any injuries, lawsuits, or other negative outcomes that may ensue from your instruction.

You are, by your own contradictory statements, apparently unwilling to accept negative responses.  If you are only willing to accept responses that agree with you, then you are in for a rude awakening; reversing your stated position and contradicting yourself in the process will not endear you to other posters on this, and many other, sites.


----------



## Kacey (Dec 18, 2006)

exile said:


> Stabpunchlook, this whole thing is very simple. You are making it much more complicated than it is. The main idea is, when you see something going on which looks like trouble, and you have no idea of what works in that situation, and there are people around who _do_ know what to do in that situation, you call on those people, and they come and help. By doing that, you are doing the most helpful thing you can possibly do. The impulse to go in yourself is self-indulgent in the extreme: you are trying to be heroic, but since you don't understand what such situations involve, you are very likely to bugger things up royally for everyone concerned. If you want to be a good guy, someone who deserves respect, then do the best thing that can be done: call in professional law enforcement officers who have dozens or more such cases under their belts, who are trained by other LEOs with maybe _hundreds_ of such cases, i.e., people _who know what they're doing._ Get your mind around the basic idea that you don't know what you're doing in such a situation, that you don't have the `clinical experience', as it would be called in the medical profession, and therefore the best thing to do, if you really want best for the people involved in the situation, is to alert those who do know what they're doing, and let _them_ handle it. Doesn't that make more sense than rushing into something you have no competence to deal with, and very likely getting yourself killed, or sued, or screamed at... or _all_ of the above???



Exile, that is very nicely stated, and I would happily provide you with postive rep... but I haven't spread it around enough yet, so I will content myself with responding here.  Thanks very much!


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

tkdgirl said:


> It's irresponsible in the sense that you have purposefully placed yourself in danger. Yes, we are aware that the situations had in fact calmed down, but that is not the point everyone has been trying to make. Point: What if the situations escalated? You found yourself looking at any weapon- be it knife, gun, or whatever! You successfully defend yourself, seriously injure someone, and therefore you get sued. It happens- rarely, but it happens... What is most likely to happen? You're caught off guard, and get injured or killed. Then you have trespassing laws to deal with, also...
> 
> Ask yourself- Is it really worth physically placing yourself in danger, when you can just as easily call for help from your own residence?


 
You pose a very well presented argument. I guess it all comes down to my ability to assess risk and act accordingly. You're right there are many what if's in these scenarios. The only defence i have for my position is that to date my involvement has been of positive outcome. On the otherside of the coin i am aware that i may not always be so lucky, with all of the unknown factors involved.

Thank you tkdgirl


----------



## exile (Dec 18, 2006)

Kacey said:


> Exile, that is very nicely stated, and I would happily provide you with postive rep... but I haven't spread it around enough yet, so I will content myself with responding here.  Thanks very much!



Kacey, thank _you_I appreciate your comments; like you (and Mike and Blotan and jks and Drac and... and...), I'm just trying to get some basic common sense agreed on as the ground for future discussion, if any more is called for... but I fear that despite our best efforts we're not getting very far, you know?


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

exile said:


> Stabpunchlook, this whole thing is very simple. You are making it much more complicated than it is. The main idea is, when you see something going on which looks like trouble, and you have no idea of what works in that situation, and there are people around who _do_ know what to do in that situation, you call on those people, and they come and help.


I see what you're saying i am not happy about the tone incinuating i have no idea.


exile said:


> By doing that, you are doing the most helpful thing you can possibly do. The impulse to go in yourself is self-indulgent in the extreme: you are trying to be heroic, but since you don't understand what such situations involve, you are very likely to bugger things up royally for everyone concerned. If you want to be a good guy, someone who deserves respect, then do the best thing that can be done: call in professional law enforcement officers who have dozens or more such cases under their belts, who are trained by other LEOs with maybe _hundreds_ of such cases, i.e., people _who know what they're doing._ Get your mind around the basic idea that you don't know what you're doing in such a situation, that you don't have the `clinical experience', as it would be called in the medical profession, and therefore the best thing to do, if you really want best for the people involved in the situation, is to alert those who do know what they're doing, and let _them_ handle it. Doesn't that make more sense than rushing into something you have no competence to deal with, and very likely getting yourself killed, or sued, or screamed at... or _all_ of the above???


 
You are still presenting that i am going in with the big MA lycra suit on. It isn't infact the case and if you feel it is then i can do no more to convince you other wise.


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 18, 2006)

Kacey said:


> Can you make it clearer? Not if you don't stop "yelling". Are you directly contradicting yourself? Most definitely. Please excuse me if the contradictions inherent in these two posts leave me confused; I find contradictory statements difficult to reconcile, especially the portions marked in color, to differentiate them from the bold you used for the latter post.
> 
> If you are including calling the police "amongst" the potential response scenarios, and not as the primary response, then you are doing your students a disservice and placing them in danger. What you do for yourself is your own problem - what you do for your students makes them responsible for their future choices, if such choices are based on your instruction. If they are unclear as to the distinction between potential response scenarios and appropriate response scenarios, then you have made yourself responsible for any injuries, lawsuits, or other negative outcomes that may ensue from your instruction.
> 
> You are, by your own contradictory statements, apparently unwilling to accept negative responses. If you are only willing to accept responses that agree with you, then you are in for a rude awakening; reversing your stated position and contradicting yourself in the process will not endear you to other posters on this, and many other, sites.


 
Ok sure i see that you have read the two statements and pulled the incongruencies. What the people here are failing to recognise is the basis for my position. As we have the domestic situation point and case yet i am thinking on a more general level, i seem to be swaying. Like bamboo in a westerly mind you. I am rooted yet my leaves are free to move. 

When i say that i intend to include it amongst our training. The way we deliver self preservation information is unique to Hakarac. I'm sure that students have a god complex not just me and not just our style. 

If you look at it now from the instructor telling a student who asks for a recommendation on dealing with response to a domestic situation next door. 'call the police'

So yeah i get it you feel it is unreasonable for an instructor to tell his students what measures to take in the event they get in a situation when their training should indicate that they not be there. 

I feel that you are presumptuos that my question is answered as you are my superior and not my equals. As many of you here are instructors i feel it is irresponsible to train from the perspective that you are going to have the ideal situation at hand. Do you ever think that you may be in a position not to call the police what happens then? It's all the what if's again but if you don't disscuss outside of the 'acceptable' responses you are ill prepared for the time when the preverbial hits the fan. 'Luck is the combination of chance and preparedness' as quoted from some book somewhere.


----------



## bluemtn (Dec 19, 2006)

Ok then...  What you have just stated is different than what you had originally posted- or at least the 2 seem to be different situations.  The first is just going next door to try and stop what is going on, while the more recent is if you're caught in the middle...  Therefore, if that is the case, I'll answer to my best ability-  seeing how I've never been in that situation.  
I'll still do my best to get out of there, hope to get the other person out (and do so without putting myself in more danger), then call the police-  especially if I didn't help the other.  I always carry a cellphone and hairspray, keys, etc.  Then again, as I said, I've never been in that situation, and those items are always on me.  It's a bit like when I learned first aid-  help when you know there isn't risk of you getting injured or worse...


----------



## exile (Dec 19, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> So yeah i get it you feel it is unreasonable for an instructor to tell his students what measures to take in the event they get in a situation when their training should indicate that they not be there.



Kacey, in case you feel compelled to revisit this thread... see what I meant about us not getting anywhere?

Stabpunch: the above-quoted passage is one huge red herring. You are not going to find yourself actually intervening in a domestic by _accident._ You may stumble upon a situation in which there is domestic strife, possibly violent, brewing, and in that case, you already should know the answer: make as quick an exit as possible and contact the police if, in your judgment, violence has broken out or is just about to. If that's what you advise your students to do, then no, you're not being unreasonable; on the contrary, you are giving them the best advice possible. But that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about finding yourself in that situation (a situation where you don't want to be) and then _actively intervening_ in it. You are suggesting that we feel it is unreasonable for you to try to tell your students, or yourself, or anyone, what kind of intervention to undertake in that situation.  And you're right. There is no intelligent intervention you or your students can undertake becauseyou're right, this is indeed getting boring_you don't know what to do in such situations_. You're no more equipped by your MA training to handle such situations which typically involve complex family dynamics, possible/probably alcohol abuse, possible/probable drug abuse, histories of psychological/physical/sexual abuse, and so on and onthan you are to take over the scalpal from an experience cardiologist at a critical phase in open-heart surgery. _You don't know enough._ Why are you having such a problem with this simple, elementary fact? If it makes you feel better, _I_ don't know enough, and probably most of the MT membership doesn't know enough. Drac, jks and a few others _do_ know enough because they're experienced cops who've put their lives on the line in such situations enough times, and who've received enough specialized training from experts, that they themselves have become experts in what is often a situation with no good solutions. But youand me, and most of the other participants in this threaddo not know enough. The difference is, me and the other participants in this thread are happy to admit that we don't know enough and that speedy withdrawal and reporting of the situation is the only viable course open to us _for the good of all concerned_. You, apparently, are _still_ not willing to accept this flaming, gaping fact.



stabpunch said:


> I feel that you are presumptuos that my question is answered as you are my superior and not my equals.



I'm not sure you realize this, but what you're doing here is another red herring. Rather than address the _content_, you are trying to focus the discussion on our supposed bad behavior in lording it over you because of our `superior' status [????]I've no idea where you get this, but think of it this way, Stabpunchif someone maintained on an MT thread that the best way to rid themself of a headache was to pick up a frying pan and bash themself with it a few times really hard, and that person got a lot of static from people telling saying, whoa, that's a _really_ bad idea, where did you get such a wrongheaded notion from, all you'll do is hurt or maybe kill yourself, and if the person in question then responded with, `You're just putting me down because you think you're superior to me', wouldn't you lose patience with that person and want to shriek at them, `No, we're just telling what you're suggesting is totally wrong and self-destructive and could get you killed and won't help your head at all, why don't you just pay attention to the issue and not go off on this wounded-vanity tangent??!!' Well, that's what we're telling _you_.




stabpunch said:


> As many of you here are instructors i feel it is irresponsible to train from the perspective that you are going to have the ideal situation at hand. Do you ever think that you may be in a position not to call the police what happens then? It's all the what if's again but if you don't disscuss outside of the 'acceptable' responses you are ill prepared for the time when the preverbial hits the fan. 'Luck is the combination of chance and preparedness' as quoted from some book somewhere.



Another red herring, and a real doozy. Your younger child comes up to you and says, `Daddy, who do love more, Robin or me?'.  `I love you the same', you say. `But if you only could save one of us from a kidnapper, which of us would you save?' `I'd save both of you or die trying' you reply. `But what if the kidnapper said that if you tried to save us and died, then he'd kill both of us?...

That's what you're doing. Building up absurdly improbable scenarios as a way of avoiding the fundamental fact that in virtually every real-life case you or your students or anyone else is going to encounter, a fast exit and a call to the police is going to be possible, practical and a hell of a lot safer than anything you're contemplating... we keep pointing this out to you and you keep coming back with, `But what if....?' Stabpunch, `what if' isn't going to happen, at least along the lines you keep bringing up. You get out of the situation. You call the cops. That's all that needs to be said!!!


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2006)

Well this thread certainly put a few more pages on since I last visited (yesterday!). I also seems to have turned into a circular argument where stabpunch seems to feel hard done by the rest of the posters. One of the reasons I joined the forum was to learn from other martial artists and share experiences (especially from women as there are few in my style) I've never felt anyone came over as 'superior' quite the opposite in fact. 
 A scenario was presented and discussed, I felt all the advice was constructive and useful. Although I am a police officer, my force is different from the 'civilian' ones as our main remit is national and military security. We rarely have domestics to deal with though a few have occurred in the military married quarters over the years which have more often than not been dealt with by the local 'Home Office' guys as they have the experience to deal with them. ( See even the police will call in the police if it's felt that's the right thing lol)
I feel stabpunch has taken a defensive position after realising that the advice given was not the green light to teach his students his way that he thought it would be. He has also taken umbrage where none need be taken.Trust me, on other forums he's have been ripped to pieces not gently given good advice. My instructor and a lot of his mates call people 'bud' no one has ever thought it was demeaning!
Exile and others have said what I'd have said... only better!


----------



## MJS (Dec 19, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> When i started this thread i had no idea it would go this far. I am still of the stance that if you are in a position to help then you should do so. last night i was a witness to another domestic situation.


 
I asked a question a while back, but don't believe that I got an answer.  My question was:  Are you willing to accept the outcome of the situation, if you take it upon yourself to attempt to handle a domestic yourself?  By going over there, armed or unarmed, there is a chance that you could find yourself faced with much more than what you ever dreamed of!  

Mike


----------



## MJS (Dec 19, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> I am not however retreating from my position. If i was in a situation i would like someone to help me and not take the 'stay out of it' mentality.


 
The difference between you and I and I think many others here, is that my version is not going to involve me physically getting involved.  I stated, as did many others, that I would call the police.  Assessing the situation, before running in is important.  Why do you think that LEOs want as much info from the dispatcher as possible?  Are there any weapons?  How many people are involved?  Are there any restraining/protective orders in place?  Are there any active warrants on any of the people involved?  If there are weapons, where are they and are they secured?  

A few years ago, 2 police officers responded to a domestic.  Unfortunately, the info about guns was not relayed to them.  The accused party was hiding in the basement.  When one of the officers went into the basement, he was ambushed by the guy, shot with a highpowered weapon, and eventually died!  BTW, did I mention that this happened right around Christmas time?  Did I mention that this guy left a wife and kids?  

The point of saying all this is...here you have an LEO, someone who is trained and this is what happened.  And you're saying that you want to run in and save the day?  Come on man.



> The choice to report or respond is the individuals and is determined by their skill set and the conflict they are faced with.


 
And common sense needs to come into play here!  I could give a rats behind how much MA skill the civilian has, the fact is, he/she does not have the qualifications to respond to something like that!  If a cop got shot and died, what the heck makes you think that you're going to be able to handle the situation any different?


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 19, 2006)

If you think that domestic situation was "resolved" without police/court intervention than you are more nieve than I first thought. I only hope those people dont wind up in more serious trouble because nobody ever alerted the authorities.

This thread has been a great example of "martial arts fantasy". Martial Arts training gives you NO experience in how to deal with people like a cop does. No idea of how to handle a domestic, a bank robbery, hostage situation etc. Believing that you can "handle things" just because you are a martial artist is something this site (as far as i have read) stands against.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2006)

Thinking about it what does "skill set" actually mean? Is it a sort of martial arts pyschobabble? I worked extremely hard on getting my black belt and it did include training on how not to be a complete prat. My instructor is also a close protection officer and he doesn't teach 'lets dive in without any thought thinking we are superheroeskwando." He's very adamant about us getting into situations we shouldn't be in.


----------



## exile (Dec 19, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> I worked extremely hard on getting my black belt and it did include training on how not to be a complete prat.



Wonderfully put, Tez!


----------



## bydand (Dec 19, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> One of the reasons I joined the forum was to learn from other martial artists and share experiences ...  I've never felt anyone came over as 'superior' quite the opposite in fact.




These are the reasons I joined this forum as well.  After looking back at some of my past posts on this thread, I have to admit I didn't live up to what I should have.  I did deserve a warning from the mods and admin for trying to rile up stabpunch, to everybody else here who have been following the foolishness on this thread, I do humbly apologize for not maintaining the standards of Martial Talk.  It won't happen again.





> Trust me, on other forums he's have been ripped to pieces not gently given good advice.



This is the road I was headed down.  It just irked me that such good advice and comments, from well-meaning MA's were being just brushed aside as you would a common annoyance.  It is something I have been working on and it seems I have a little further left on that journey .

Thank you Tez for reminding me as well why this is the best Martial Art forum out in cyberspace.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 19, 2006)

bydand said:


> These are the reasons I joined this forum as well. After looking back at some of my past posts on this thread, I have to admit I didn't live up to what I should have. I did deserve a warning from the mods and admin for trying to rile up stabpunch, to everybody else here who have been following the foolishness on this thread, I do humbly apologize for not maintaining the standards of Martial Talk. It won't happen again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Actually I didn't think you were that much out of line! I think it shows you have a passion for martial arts and passion is good! (A couple of sites I know would have just given one word answers to his posts usually beginning with w or c. Honestly!) I think your feelings were honest, I did share the frustration as what appeared to be arrogance was posted up but I guess we have to bite our tongues sometimes or whatever the computer equivalent is and remember what my mum used to say "it takes all sorts to make the world!"


----------



## bydand (Dec 19, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> I guess we have to bite our tongues sometimes or whatever the computer equivalent is and remember what my mum used to say "it takes all sorts to make the world!"



Sounds like a wise woman!


----------



## exile (Dec 19, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> Actually I didn't think you were that much out of line!



Scott, as I've already indicated, I agree with Tez here. You were simply exhibiting the normal, probably unavoidable reaction to the experience summed up by our sticky ... and I defy anyone to blame you!


----------



## bydand (Dec 19, 2006)

Oh, don't get me wrong.  I'm not going to let foolishness slide, and I'm not going to let somebody mis-quote me without setting the record straight and letting my thoughts be known.  I do agree that I could do those things without resorting to calling somebody a troll (even if I think they are being one).  That is what I am going to try and do better with.  Letting things slide that are blatently ignorant isn't in my make-up and I don't expect that to change anytime soon, I do intend to change what I say and how I say it.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2006)

"Tact is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the journey" !!


----------



## Drac (Dec 20, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> "Tact is the art of telling someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the journey" !!


 
:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Dec 20, 2006)

Ok I have a question for stabpunch. This slightly echoes something MJS asked too, and Im not sure he got a response yet.

If you decided to intervene in a domestic dispute, and your interference resulted in one of the people you were trying to "help" getting seriously injured or hurt, how would you handle it? Would you still feel morally justified?
I've seen this happen a couple of times. You see a couple rowing, maybe shouting at each other or hurling abuse. It looks bad, but its basically just noise, its not going to go anywhere. Just standard people in a relationship doing what they do.
Someone however, decides to intervene, and "protect the fair damsel" and gives out to or tries to stop the man. This escalates the situation.
There's usually three ways this will go.

1. The two of them turn on you and both attack you. Most common result. If you try to interfere in a domestic, usually everyone involved will turn on you.
2. The man will try and clobber you and the woman hangs back afraid. Congratulations, you just escalated a situation from shouting to violence. So we've got either you potentiall ending up in hospital or court, and all because you interfered when didn't need to. Common enough, but less so than the other.
3. The man clobbers you and then turns on the woman. He blames her for this whole mess, he's pissed off and she's a good target.
Congrats, you just got a woman beaten. Less common than the others, but it happens, Ive seen it once or twice.

So my question is, how would you react to possiblity number three?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha,good post! I think the reason there was no answer to this question is that these are situations that couldn't be imagined! Well, most of us could but if you have a blind faith in your own abilities you can't imagine any of those situations happening. I have a vivid imagination and a fairly decent grasp of human behaviour so I can actually think of more scenarios developing. None of them good! I think you may wait a long time for an answer.


----------



## Drac (Dec 20, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Ok I have a question for stabpunch. This slightly echoes something MJS asked too, and Im not sure he got a response yet.
> 
> If you decided to intervene in a domestic dispute, and your interference resulted in one of the people you were trying to "help" getting seriously injured or hurt, how would you handle it? Would you still feel morally justified?


 
Then how do you feel when the injuried part turns around and *SUES *you BIG TIME...


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Dec 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Then how do you feel when the injuried part turns around and *SUES *you BIG TIME...


 
My heart just had sympathy pains with my wallet. Unless someone is physically under direct threat, getting involved will either land you, or them in more trouble than is neccessary.


----------



## Drac (Dec 20, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> My heart just had sympathy pains with my wallet. Unless someone is physically under direct threat, getting involved will either land you, or them in more trouble than is neccessary.


 
Yep...


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Dec 20, 2006)

Tez3 said:


> Shotgun Buddha,good post! I think the reason there was no answer to this question is that these are situations that couldn't be imagined! Well, most of us could but if you have a blind faith in your own abilities you can't imagine any of those situations happening. I have a vivid imagination and a fairly decent grasp of human behaviour so I can actually think of more scenarios developing. None of them good! I think you may wait a long time for an answer.


 
I figure that too. I just don't get it, every time I decide to throw a curtain round my shoulders and wear it as a cape, and wear my undies on the outside, Im painfully aware of all the ways things could go wrong. And the chafing, that is also something Im painfully aware of.....
Anyway, Im curious, out of domestics you've witnessed, how many have actually gone properly physical? And I mean in the sense of actual under threat of severe injury, not a well thrown spatula to the head.


----------



## Drac (Dec 20, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Anyway, Im curious, out of domestics you've witnessed, how many have actually gone properly physical? And I mean in the sense of actual under threat of severe injury, not a well thrown spatula to the head.


 
Speaking for myself, more than I care to remember..


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Dec 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> Speaking for myself, more than I care to remember..


 
Yeah, you'd probably get called mainly in cases where its already getting out of hand right?
Not the ones that would just fizzle out themselves.
Im just trying to get a more accurate idea of how many go too far if you get me?


----------



## Drac (Dec 20, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Yeah, you'd probably get called mainly in cases where its already getting out of hand right?
> Not the ones that would just fizzle out themselves.
> Im just trying to get a more accurate idea of how many go too far if you get me?


 
We get called to *ALL* Domestics disturbances..Thankfully many (unknown percentage) have fizzled out upon arrival..


----------



## Shotgun Buddha (Dec 20, 2006)

Drac said:


> We get called to *ALL* Domestics disturbances..Thankfully many (unknown percentage) have fizzled out upon arrival..


 
Thanks, I was trying to get a clearer picture of how things worked over there.
Here in Ireland, or at least Navan the town Im from, response time to a domestic disturbance(or any kind of disturbance) tends to be about an hour or so, unless its to a business.
So its usually either fizzled out or blown up by the time there is any police intervention anyway.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2006)

The domestic situations I know most about aren't so much the marital type as the comradely type! We police the largest Garrison in Europe along with the local police and the Royal Military Police (who everyone hates bless them, they aren't actually police in that they only have military powers to deal with military personnel) We have several Regiments here along with vising troops ie Royal Marines, Paras etc so the potential for fights is huge, that's without the added complication of alcohol!
situations need careful handling sometimes to stop a full scale war breaking out.We also have civies winding up the squaddies. Never ever rush into a situation without sussing it out first, a lot of verbal scuffles will peter out without any damage being done or will be sorted peacefully out by mates.That's always the best solution, go in gungho and you will find that you will not only be facing the original combatants but all their mates too. This situations are best dealt with a smile on your face and a few jokey remarks, works wonders! Very rarely is violence needed and few get arrested anyway.
The funniest thing even though I shouldn't say this is when a couple of battalions from different regiments are fighting it out (sounds worse than it is, no weapons are used and it's quite gentlemanly really, no one gets much beyond a black eye or broken nose, no one is involved who shouldn't be there as it were!)  and the Royal Military Police decide to be brave and go in and stop them. The fighting stops immediately the RMPs get out of their cars and proceed towards the squaddies, then the two sides who had been previously enemies dive on the redcaps lol! I think military and ex military will understand this!


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 20, 2006)

Its a case of "yeah my brother and I get into fistfights...but you better not let me catch you picking on my brother."


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Its a case of "yeah my brother and I get into fistfights...but you better not let me catch you picking on my brother."


 
Totally! It's also a sport picking on the redcaps, it has to be done lol! We do it too, they drive around in cars marked like police cars but they're not really so we do them for speeding!


----------



## Drac (Dec 20, 2006)

Shotgun Buddha said:


> Thanks, I was trying to get a clearer picture of how things worked over there.
> Here in Ireland, or at least Navan the town Im from, response time to a domestic disturbance(or any kind of disturbance) tends to be about an hour or so, unless its to a business.
> So its usually either fizzled out or blown up by the time there is any police intervention anyway.


 
Over here response time to a domestic where the dispatcher can hear yelling or screaming on the phone is about under 5 minutes..If things have fizzled out the first unit in will cancel the other units



Blotan Hunka said:


> Its a case of "yeah my brother and I get into fistfights...but you better not let me catch you picking on my brother."


 
Many are under the assumption that domestic is strickly husband-vs-wife..It can be any famly member...


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2006)

Drac said:


> Speaking for myself, more than I care to remember..



Let's see... A "well thrown spatula to the head..."  

I worked one wear an airborn frying pan shattered an elbow.

Actual physical assault -- plenty.  Verbal only -- even more.  Verbal that became physical or escalated when we arrived -- quite a few.  One of my partner's and I even locked one guy up for assault on an officer because he didn't want to talk to us after verbal disputes with his family.

As I said previously -- I've called the local cops where I live quite a few times for domestics in my "happy neighborhood."  (Don't worry -- they go on in yours, too, you just don't see or note the signs like I do.  A 1970s TV star's house is well known to cops in a jurisdiction near mine thanks to the frequent domestics there...  And, yes, the star still has plenty of money as does the spouse.)  I've gotten personally and directly involved exactly once, when I knew a physical HAD occurred and WOULD occur again if I didn't do something.  And, even then, I only gave the victim shelter till the cops arrived.

While I believe I'm largely preaching to the choir now -- Domestics, especially, are not things for well meaning amateurs to jump into.  What I want is you to call it in, report if there are any weapons involved, or if you believe that either of the parties is drunk or high, and NOT become another victim.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2006)

Drac said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Shotgun Buddha*
> 
> 
> ...



A couple of further "definition" points, with the caveat that each state defines "family member" for itself here in the US.  The odds are very good (in fact, I'm almost certain) that Drac's definition includes some mine wouldn't -- and mine includes some his probably doesn't.  Basically, in VA, it's blood relatives (mom, dad, kids, grandparents IF they live in the house), step-relatives (step-parent, step-sib, etc), and folks with a child-in-common.  (I'm paraphrasing or capsulizing several paragraphs worth of definition here.)  If we find that there is probable cause to believe a domestic assault has occured between covered parties (kid-vs-kid, mom-vs-grandmom, baby momma-vs-baby daddy), we almost MUST make an arrest.

In my area, cops respond to all domestic calls.  The information that the calltaker gathers dictates how we respond; "parties are arguing" is different from "son pushed dad" and vastly different from "calltaker hears screaming in background."   Verbal domestics -- we can often resolve by "encouraging" one party to spend the night with friends, and directing the appropriate party to other resources.  As I said -- once it becomes physical, we almost have to arrest.  If, in some rare circumstance, we don't make an arrest, we actually have to do MORE paperwork to justify that than actually making an arrest.

Domestic violence is a very serious, and under-reported, crime here.  It's treated as such.  And, as much as "in the good ol' days", cops could "fix" the problem with creative police work -- there were plenty of times that the "creative" approach failed.

OK...I'm off my soapbox now!


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2006)

Quote In my area, cops respond to all domestic calls. The information that the calltaker gathers dictates how we respond; "parties are arguing" is different from "son pushed dad" and vastly different from "calltaker hears screaming in background." Verbal domestics -- we can often resolve by "encouraging" one party to spend the night with friends, and directing the appropriate party to other resources.Unquote 

This is why I believe calling the police if you have _any_ concerns is the right thing to do.The police officers have probably seen everything in the way of altercations and will handle the situation appropriately. If you call the police and it turns out you mistook the situation and it really was nothing far better that than barging in and turning it into a potential fight! On the other hand the situation may be a dangerous one and by calling the police you may save lives even your own!


----------



## stabpunch (Dec 22, 2006)

Yes i am willing to accept the responsibility of my decisions. 

All these words and i still don't regret attending the situation.

'Jack' came over for dinner the other night and he is greatful that: 

A) I didn't sit on my hands and 
B) I didn't get the police involved. 

For me his appreciation is far more weighty than all the talking you guys can type. It's horses for courses. 

If you don't trust my judgement that's fine. I do.

Seasons greetings.


----------



## MJS (Dec 22, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Yes i am willing to accept the responsibility of my decisions.
> 
> All these words and i still don't regret attending the situation.
> 
> ...


 
Thats fine, but I'd like to say a few things.

1) Has the thought ever occured to you, that perhaps domestics happen on a regular basis over at "Jacks" house and he is greatful that you didn't call the police because he wants to continue to subject his family to domestic violence?

2) If you didn't want anyones opinion, why did you start this topic???????????????

3) Seeing that you still did not answer my question, I'll close by saying...did you ever sit and take some time to think about the outcome if your "verbal Judo"   doesn't work?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2006)

I have to second MJS' post. Why on earth post if you didn't want anyone's opinion? Unless it was confirm your own opinion of yourself? As I assume it didn't, this is why we've had the 'well you're all wrong I'm right anyway' post. 
Oh well, I'm not too proud to say I learned something from "all the talking you guys type" ( I'm sure that's an oxymoron!) I don't want to stop learning till I die and even then who knows lol!


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 22, 2006)

Thats it. Time for the ignore feature.


----------



## Drac (Dec 22, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Thats it. Time for the ignore feature.


 
I'm with you before my inner demons make me post something that I'll be sorry for...


----------



## Drac (Dec 22, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> While I believe I'm largely preaching to the choir now -- Domestics, especially, are not things for well meaning amateurs to jump into. What I want is you to call it in, report if there are any weapons involved, or if you believe that either of the parties is drunk or high, and NOT become another victim.


 
If concerned citizens REALLY wanna do the right thing CALL US...CALL 911 and stay on the friggin line...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Dec 22, 2006)

Drac said:


> If concerned citizens REALLY wanna do the right thing CALL US...CALL 911 and stay on the friggin line...




Drac,

I hope you do not mind, but in my experience 911 has not been trained or worth my time. Calling the local police directly has always gotten a much more informed and better response for me. But 911 is universal and will work on any cell phone and I understand why you say what you say. I just know I am not thrilled with their local performance. 

Thanks


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Drac,
> 
> I hope you do not mind, but in my experience 911 has not been trained or worth my time. Calling the local police directly has always gotten a much more informed and better response for me. But 911 is universal and will work on any cell phone and I understand why you say what you say. I just know I am not thrilled with their local performance.
> 
> Thanks


 
It's important to understand how 911 works -- and how it doesn't.  First, there are still some places in the US that DO NOT have 911!  So, you'd better know whether or not the system is even available if you're spending time there.  (Cell calls will go to a 911 dispatch center based on the towers...which may not be exactly where you need help; more on that in a bit.)  

Second, 911 calls go to a 911 dispatch center, not necessarily your local police.  Where I work, for example, all 911 calls go to the regional 911 call center that dispatches fire & EMS first; if it's not a fire & rescue call, it gets referred to either the appropriate local police dispatcher, like mine, or the county police dispatchers.  BUT...  it's gotta get through the fire side first!  (And then the call taker has to get jurisdictional boundaries right... which doesn't always happen.  One more reason to know who "your" cops are...)  This makes sense; after all, medical issues can be a matter of seconds -- but it does delay police dispatch sometimes.  If you know the number to our dispatcher direct (we've got it on the back of all our police cars...), you can cut that middleman out.

Now...  Cell phones and internet phone service.  I'm leary of these...  Cell calls don't link to a land address; they go to the 911 center for the tower.  Guess what?  That CAN be someone different if you're close to jurisdictional boundaries.  And internet phones can be even worse; they may not be able to route a 911 call to your 911 center.  I personally suggest having at least one landline (traditional phone), and not a cordless phone, either.  They may not work if there's no power...

One final note... 911 is an EMERGENCY line; it's not for "my neighbor's stereo is too loud" and it's not for "I got a parking ticket; what do I do?"  There are non-emergency numbers for stuff like that; take a few minutes, and LEARN THEM.  (I know the non-emergency numbers for about 4 to 6 jurisdictions off the top of my head.)  Use 911 for crimes in progress, especially crimes where someone might get hurt (yes, that domestic does count!), for medical emergencies, or for fire emergencies.  If in doubt that it's an emergency -- call 911, but be reasonable.  Your car that was taken sometime overnight isn't typically a life threatening emergency, no matter how mean your boss is!


----------



## KenpoTex (Dec 23, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> One final note... 911 is an EMERGENCY line; it's not for "my neighbor's stereo is too loud" and it's not for "I got a parking ticket; what do I do?" There are non-emergency numbers for stuff like that; take a few minutes, and LEARN THEM.


 This varies...In my area, if you call the PD or the SD, you'll get a recording that basically says "if you need an officer to respond for any reason, hang up and call 911"

Our 911 center will directly dispatch the city, county, state-patrol, and the fire/ems services as appropriate.


----------



## Drac (Dec 23, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> Drac, hope you do not mind, but in my experience 911 has not been trained or worth my time. Calling the local police directly has always gotten a much more informed and better response for me. Thanks


 
Up here the same operator that answers the 911 line is the same person that answers that non-emergency line...


----------



## Drac (Dec 23, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> One final note... 911 is an EMERGENCY line; it's not for "my neighbor's stereo is too loud" and it's not for "I got a parking ticket; what do I do?" There are non-emergency numbers for stuff like that; take a few minutes, and LEARN THEM.


 
Usually it's your area code and the first 3 digits of your exchange followed by 1234..Check out the White Pages to be sure..


----------



## Kacey (Dec 23, 2006)

Drac said:


> Usually it's your area code and the first 3 digits of your exchange followed by 1234..Check out the White Pages to be sure..



I know the non-emergency number for my area... but it's nothing close to that.  One of my neighbors gave it to me when I moved in; we live across the street from a park where lots of loud music is played during the day and evening, people drink beer and leave bottles all over the park, and teens/young adults pull up for 10-15 minutes while exchanging paper bags... I call that number _regularly_ on summer nights, and the response has been good enough that I call _less_ than I used to, as the ones who hung out there have learned the police _do_ show up.  Also, every time I've told them I did anything but call first (like go out and tell noisy teens, phone in hand, that I have their plate number - they usually leave then), they calmly and politely tell me why I should have called instead.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2006)

We have 999 for emergencies, this is put through to an operator and they'll ask what service you require, usually fire, police or ambulance. In coastal areas you can get the coastguard too ( for a lifeboat callout etc). round my area we have mountain rescue as well! Like 911, 999 is for emergencies only. We do have local numbers to talk to the police. Response is pretty good in our area bearing in mind we are rural (if you've ever watched the James Herriot films/series thats where I live, Yorkshire Dales) we have a helicopter ambulance service because of the difficulties we face in winter.The reverse of the distance probalem is that everyone tends to know everyone and everything! The Garrison while there are thousands of soldiers tends to be a very friendly place, if you know service people you will know what I mean, to a large extent it's self policing. Trouble doesn't break out very often thank goodness. The Garrison is very quiet at the moment, everyone is in Iraq. I would give an awful lot to have a few scuffles breaking out in the local pubs at the moment! My thoughts are very much with the families and the soldiers at this moment and I shal have a very special thought for stabpunch who has endeared himself to so many of MTs wisest heads with his unique outlook on life and martial arts. We have learned from him exactly what we should be teaching our students!


----------



## Drac (Dec 23, 2006)

Kacey said:


> I know the non-emergency number for my area... but it's nothing close to that


 
I keep forgetting that the burbs here are NOTHING like the burbs there..Sorry..



			
				Kacey said:
			
		

> Also, every time I've told them I did anything but call first (like go out and tell noisy teens, phone in hand, that I have their plate number - they usually leave then), they calmly and politely tell me why I should have called instead.


 
Yep..That's because you NEVER know what drugs or the amount of alcohol that they have ingested, usually a combination..It's the weapons that is their biggest concern..It an effort to imitate the hard core "rappers" they will carry semi-automatic pistols and in some cases FULLY automatic..


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 23, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> This varies...In my area, if you call the PD or the SD, you'll get a recording that basically says "if you need an officer to respond for any reason, hang up and call 911"
> 
> Our 911 center will directly dispatch the city, county, state-patrol, and the fire/ems services as appropriate.


Are you certain that there's not a separate non-emergency number?  I cannot imagine that the 911 center wants every single police call for service to come in on 911...  There are only so many 911 lines available, and in many cities, it's actually very possible to end up getting a recording on 911 until a line/calltaker is available.

It may not be literally to a desk in the local PD; it might go to the same dispatch center because you use regional dispatch (several areas near me are like that) -- but I'm pretty confident that there is a non-emergency number.  

We actually had to change a lot of our published information, because we listed an our-PD only emergency number, and, apparently, some laws have changed and we can't have a separate emergency number and 911 service.  Still... knowing the appropriate local number (maybe it's to that regional call center; maybe it's to a desk in the PD) can often get a faster police response than 911.  And there are times not to call 911, and instead use the non-emergency number.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 23, 2006)

Drac said:


> I keep forgetting that the burbs here are NOTHING like the burbs there..Sorry..


 
And that's why I didn't try to list any...  Some places have 311 for police service calls, others have a "regular" phone number, and some are just calls to the 911 call center on a non-emergency line.  If I'm travelling, and staying somewhere for several days, I'll often check the local phone book for the police numbers.  Beats having some hotel clerk try to talk you out of calling the cops for a problem...


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 24, 2006)

Where I live, 911 goes right to our local PD. If you call the non-emergency line you get the same guy that awnsers the 911 line.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 24, 2006)

In Alma we have 911 for emergencies and a local number for non-emergency related issues.


----------



## bluemtn (Dec 24, 2006)

There's 911 in my area, and if you're driving, there's a number to dial if there's an accident for the state police.  I've never had to dial 911, so I don't know if it's mainly fire and ambulance or everything.  The only time I had to call for state police was when a deer and another car was involved...  I guess I know what research I need to do soon!


----------



## MJS (Dec 25, 2006)

I dispatch for the City of Middltown CT., and the town of Portland, CT.  We take care of Police, Fire and EMS service.  Anyone that dials 911 from either location, from a landline, I get the call in Middletown.  There are routine lines as well, that come into the dispatch center.  The majority of 911 cell calls that I get, are mostly from people in those two locations.  However, as its been said, depending on what tower is hit, makes a difference.  I've taken cell calls from the next town over, but its close enough that I still get the call.  We have a GPS system that provides us with a ballpark idea as to location, but I do not rely on that 100%.

Mike


----------



## Drac (Dec 25, 2006)

MJS said:


> We have a GPS system that provides us with a ballpark idea as to location, but I do not rely on that 100%.Mike


 
The township purchased a system last year that brings up an actual skyview of the area and MARKS all the roads.Its currently available in the dispatch center only at this time, the cruisers will get the package in the near future....


----------



## scottt (Dec 25, 2006)

stabpunch said:


> Let me ask you guys what you would do in this scenario:
> 
> Your next door neighbour is having an argument with his son. You can hear the yelling escalate to the point where physical threats are being made and you hear the father say "I can't believe you just hit me". You go next door to investigate and knock on the front door, you are greated by one of the four sons. You are on a first name basis with his father, acquaintances, not necesarrily friends.
> 
> ...



I'll go back to the beginning to reply to this one.  I realize there is a lot of discussion in between, but in answer to the question:
1. my first thought was to take my cel phone.  second thought - good shoes and comfortable, practical clothing.  Who knows what will happen.
2. "hi, is your dad home?"
3. environment is very important.
Firstly, I live in Canada, and not in a crime-ridden area.  If it was a neighbour I knew reasonably well I might actually do this.  My goal would be to keep myself safe, and to create a diversion from the situation.  Domestic disputes rise and fall without intervention all the time.  If I can come over and sit for an hour talking about deer hunting or ATV's or whatever, and be in the way then this might be what I am trying to do.  If I get the impression that the emotions have subsided then I would feel ok just leaving.

HOWEVER I might not feel ok staying or going very far into the house if things look dicey.  Then I might ask to borrow something (saw, gallon of gas) and then leave.  Then the 911 call might happen.  This is where I would be relying on gut instinct.

But that's just me, and I'm much less safety conscious than a lot of other people.  I'll approach people if they are not obviously dangerous.

The key in my mind is that I am not creating any confrontation.  Let people's emotions return to a normal state without making a big deal out of things.


----------



## jks9199 (Dec 25, 2006)

> 'll go back to the beginning to reply to this one. I realize there is a lot of discussion in between, but in answer to the question:
> 1. my first thought was to take my cel phone. second thought - good shoes and comfortable, practical clothing. Who knows what will happen.
> 2. "hi, is your dad home?"
> 3. environment is very important.
> ...



I'm not going to rehash many pages worth of discussion...

But no matter how well you think you know your neighbor, brother, or whoever -- they can be a VERY different person in the heat of a domestic.  One of my partners was assaulted by a guy who'd been meek as a lamb a week previously on a DWI arrest when she tried to just talk to him during a domestic dispute.

Beyond that... Like I said, I'm not re-hashing everything.  But it's not a good idea to jump into a situation like that unless someone is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, AND you feel you can intervene safely.  Call the police who are paid to do it...


----------



## Drac (Dec 26, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> But no matter how well you think you know your neighbor, brother, or whoever -- they can be a VERY different person in the heat of a domestic. One of my partners was assaulted by a guy who'd been meek as a lamb a week previously on a DWI arrest when she tried to just talk to him during a domestic dispute


 
Yes..Not to mention how much alcohol they consumed or some other illegal substance..Also people (like dogs) can be VERY territorial about  their home turf..Your mere presense might REALLY set them off..




			
				jks9199 said:
			
		

> Beyond that... Like I said, I'm not re-hashing everything. But it's not a good idea to jump into a situation like that unless someone is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, AND you feel you can intervene safely. Call the police who are paid to do it...


 
Yes again..If someone is on their front lawn, driveway or a public place and you CAN see that death or serious bodily harm will occure if you do not intervene then DO IT...Advise the PD ASAP of the situation...


----------



## scottt (Dec 26, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not going to rehash many pages worth of discussion...
> 
> But no matter how well you think you know your neighbor, brother, or whoever -- they can be a VERY different person in the heat of a domestic.  One of my partners was assaulted by a guy who'd been meek as a lamb a week previously on a DWI arrest when she tried to just talk to him during a domestic dispute.
> 
> Beyond that... Like I said, I'm not re-hashing everything.  But it's not a good idea to jump into a situation like that unless someone is in imminent danger of serious bodily harm, AND you feel you can intervene safely.  Call the police who are paid to do it...



Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine getting to this point, so I don't think it's likely to start with.  All my neighbours have guns too.  But the question posed already puts you into the situation.  I just don't see any other scenario where I would already be knocking on the door.


----------



## Blotan Hunka (Dec 26, 2006)

No it doesnt really put you at the door when you think about it. The question is "what do you take with you?". So technically you are at home deciding what to pack.


----------



## Drac (Dec 26, 2006)

scottt said:


> Yeah, it's hard for me to imagine getting to this point, so I don't think it's likely to start with me.


 
*NO ONE* imagines that. Not cops, EMT's or Firefighters *BUT IT HAPPENS. *Got called to one domestic where the wife opened the front door and this nice guy from next door lept off the couch and charged me like a mad elephant..It didn't end well for him..


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2006)

Going back to the original question on what I'd take with me to ask the neighbours if could they kindly stop knocking each other about, I think I'd take my German Shepherd, full body armour, as many weapons as I could get my hands on, stun grenades, a team of crack SBS ( Royal Marine Commandos, much better than the SAS...sits back and waits for howls from SAS guys tee hee!) local television crew to show everyone how brave I am, maybe even a tank, a flame thrower even,mortars! If it looked as if it might get a bit nasty I'd get the RAF in for an air strike! Way to go! We could take out the whole neighbourhood, that'll teach em! 
Or I could just phone the police........ very sensible, not nearly as much fun for *me*...... ah but it wasn't about me was it? it was about doing the best thing for someone else! Down, ego, down! Son, just call the police!


----------



## KenpoTex (Dec 27, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> Are you certain that there's not a separate non-emergency number? I cannot imagine that the 911 center wants every single police call for service to come in on 911... There are only so many 911 lines available, and in many cities, it's actually very possible to end up getting a recording on 911 until a line/calltaker is available.
> 
> It may not be literally to a desk in the local PD; it might go to the same dispatch center because you use regional dispatch (several areas near me are like that) -- but I'm pretty confident that there is a non-emergency number.


 
oops...should have been more clear.  During "normal business hours" (7-5 I think) you can call the individual departments on a regular line to handle non-emergency issues (inquiries, complaints, reports over the phone, etc.).  After hours, if you call you'll get the recording that tells you to dial 911 if you need a police officer to respond (yes, this includes the "loud party" and "barking dog" calls).  The 911 center in this area is in it's own building and is a joint-effort between the PD, SD, and the other emergency services.  All the calls are taken and dispatched from the same office.

Typically when you call, the first thing you hear is "911 do you have an emergency?" (...etc.)  When I call for something that does not require a "lights and sirens" response, I'll say: "no I don't have an emergency, I just need an officer to respond because..."


----------



## Drac (Dec 27, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> Typically when you call, the first thing you hear is "911 do you have an emergency?" (...etc.) When I call for something that does not require a "lights and sirens" response, I'll say: "no I don't have an emergency, I just need an officer to respond because..."


 
A verbal domestic usually does not require a Priority 1 response (lights and siren) UNLESS there is a history of verbals that escalated have into a physical confrontation and required serious police action...


----------



## Explorer (Dec 28, 2006)

Injecting oneself into a domestic dispute is a recipe for disaster.  One of the people will certainly turn on you and the liklihood of both turning on you is extremely high.  Remember the saying ... "Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread"?  It applies to the maximum in this scenario.

IMHO the only time to intervene is when you're sure someone will be maimed or killed if you don't take action.  Otherwise it's an issue for the police who are trained to work with these kind of issues.

As for the subjects finding out who called the police ... what are they, clairvoyant?  Unless you tell them, they'll never know.


----------



## scottt (Dec 28, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:


> No it doesnt really put you at the door when you think about it. The question is "what do you take with you?". So technically you are at home deciding what to pack.



ok.  Most of the responses are "I would never do that".  If one were sticking one's nose into this, then there is still the question of whether one would take all the weapons one owns, or not.  My answer is not, but I think that's because if I felt I needed weapons I would stay home.  hmm.

Then there is the imminent danger scenario.  If someone is being fatally stabbed and I think I can stop it (?) - I might just take a nice 26" dowel with me.  It's a good weapon to me, and not nearly so good for the average (non-MA) person so I'm less afraid of losing it.  Oh, and I can buy 2 for less than $5 at the local home improvement store.


----------



## Drac (Dec 28, 2006)

scottt said:


> Then there is the imminent danger scenario. If someone is being fatally stabbed and I think I can stop it (?) - I might just take a nice 26" dowel with me. It's a good weapon to me, and not nearly so good for the average (non-MA) person so I'm less afraid of losing it. Oh, and I can buy 2 for less than $5 at the local home improvement store.


 
I think I said it before that in cases where death or serious injury may occure unless you interceed DO IT..If you are confident in your skill level GO FOR IT..Yes, I was once present at an MA demo where a dowel was used and my jaw dropped..WOW..Running over to your neighbors and kicking down the door simply because they are having a loud arguement is not a good thing...If you DO decide to go over and see him attempting to do a slice and dice on a family member, give him one for me THEN CALL 911..


----------



## Explorer (Jan 1, 2007)

OK ... the scenario is ... threat of imminent substantial bodily harm (permanent, lasting damage) or serious bodily harm (death).

Call the police tell them what's going on and what you're going to do ... give them a discription of yourself ... then get to the scene with watever weapon gives you overwhelming advantage and puts you on scene as quickly as possible.  

Number 31 of the Laws of Self Defense is a good guide to weapon choice: "Never use a contact weapon (like a stick) when you can use a distance weapon (like a gun), never use pure hand to hand when you can use a contact weapon ... "

My choice would be my either my heavily modified 1911 .45 cal or Baby Eagle .45 cal pistols.  The reason I'd choose a gun is I don't know what I'll be facing when I enter the house, the aggressor could be armed with a knife ... and I REALLY don't want to face one of those in a confined space where sticks are kinda hard to work with.  And I CERTAINLY don't want to face a knife with a kubaton!  The second reason I'd choose a pistol is that it gives me an edge statistically.  In the nearly 2,000,000 times per year people in the US successfully defend themselves with a gun ... the trigger is pulled only 2% of the time.  This tells me that, 98% of the time, aggressors either give up or clear out when the see a gun ... either case is completely OK.  If they run away, don't shoot ... if the aggressor is leaving you are not in imminent danger.  You know who they are and the police will track them down.

Make sure when the police arrive that you don't look like the threat.  Be ready for the cops to handcuff you when they arrive.  They need to sort out a difficult situation and you'll have to be patient.  They are trained to do this and you will be helping immensely if you simply co-operate.  If you are holding a gun you'll look like the aggressor and they'll approach with theirs drawn, shouting orders.  You'll be under adrenal stress and will not be able to hear very well ... you may not even hear their sirens ... so keep your eyes open looking for any sign of them.  Be ready to immediately put down your weapon (whatever it is) and allow the police to restrain you.


----------



## Drac (Jan 1, 2007)

Explorer said:


> OK ... the scenario is ... threat of imminent substantial bodily harm (permanent, lasting damage) or serious bodily harm (death).
> 
> Call the police tell them what's going on and what you're going to do ... give them a discription of yourself ... then get to the scene with watever weapon gives you overwhelming advantage and puts you on scene as quickly as possible.


 
Promise NOt to be angry if they tell you to stay put...There maybe a unit around the corner



			
				Explorer said:
			
		

> Number 31 of the Laws of Self Defense is a good guide to weapon choice: "Never use a contact weapon (like a stick) when you can use a distance weapon (like a gun), never use pure hand to hand when you can use a contact weapon ."[


 
An EXCELLENT rule



			
				Explorer said:
			
		

> My choice would be my either my heavily modified 1911 .45 cal or Baby Eagle .45 cal pistols. The reason I'd choose a gun is I don't know what I'll be facing when I enter the house, the aggressor could be armed with a knife ... and I REALLY don't want to face one of those in a confined space where sticks are kinda hard to work with. And I CERTAINLY don't want to face a knife with a kubaton!


 
Make sure to tell the dispatch that your are responding over there with your firearm...






			
				Explorer said:
			
		

> Make sure when the police arrive that you don't look like the threat. Be ready for the cops to handcuff you when they arrive. They need to sort out a difficult situation and you'll have to be patient. They are trained to do this and you will be helping immensely if you simply co-operate. If you are holding a gun you'll look like the aggressor and they'll approach with theirs drawn, shouting orders. You'll be under adrenal stress and will not be able to hear very well ... you may not even hear their sirens ... so keep your eyes open looking for any sign of them. Be ready to immediately put down your weapon (whatever it is) and allow the police to restrain you.


 
An EXCELLENT paragraph Explorer..Bravo


----------



## scottt (Jan 1, 2007)

Explorer said:


> Call the police tell them what's going on and what you're going to do ... give them a discription of yourself ... then get to the scene with watever weapon gives you overwhelming advantage and puts you on scene as quickly as possible.
> 
> Number 31 of the Laws of Self Defense is a good guide to weapon choice: "Never use a contact weapon (like a stick) when you can use a distance weapon (like a gun), never use pure hand to hand when you can use a contact weapon ... "



well...  Since I live about 800km due North of you (~480mi, and a bit North of the border) the repercussions for me would be quite different.

If I told the police I was going to my neighbour's house with a firearm I would definitely be arrested, and they may send a cruiser by to check out the domestic dispute.

Anyway, that all plays a part too.  Since I know that there is lots of hunting around here and firearms are readily available, that plays a big factor in making the decision in the first place.  Know your environment.

Interesting statistics quoted there too.  Are they real, and can I quote them?  Is there also a number of unsuccessful defences, or numbers on unarmed defences?  I have been casually looking for more stats on attacks and whatnot.

st


----------



## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2007)

scottt said:


> well...  Since I live about 800km due North of you (~480mi, and a bit North of the border) the repercussions for me would be quite different.
> 
> If I told the police I was going to my neighbour's house with a firearm I would definitely be arrested, and they may send a cruiser by to check out the domestic dispute.
> 
> ...



I'm curious about the numbers, too.  I've never seen an explanation for the numbers that some pro-gun rights organizations claim that makes sense to me.  I'm a cop, and to reach those numbers, it sure seems like I should be taking a lot more assault/robbery/other violent offense reports where the intended victim scared off the assailant with a gun than I am.  Of course, it could be that they don't report the attempted crime, but than I've gotta thank them for leaving the criminal running free without so much as telling the police...

I'm not a fan of private citizens intervening with guns, simply because it's all to easy for that gun to end up in the hands of the criminal -- and because it radically escalates the danger to the citizen.  Police officers shoot other plain-clothes officers from their own agency because of miscommunication and misidentification; how much greater is the chance that a civilian will be the victim of such a mistake?  I do carry off-duty, but the main reason is to defend myself and my family -- not so that I can intervene in a situation.  

If a person absolutely feels that they MUST intervene in order to prevent death or serious bodily harm to another, and that they can do so reasonably safely (defined as with acceptable risk to themselves and anyone around them), then they absolutely must be prepared to obey the police when they arrive.  There is absolutely nothing more frightening to me than to be told something like "caller reports her husband left the house with a gun.  husband is wearing..." as I respond to any sort of call, whether it's an alarm or a report of an attempted homicide in progress.  I don't know if that guy is going to mistake me for a bad guy; I don't know if he has any real idea of where he's shooting or what I may be doing to respond to his call...  And that applies even if the guy's a cop.  The way my agency does things may not be the same as the way his does them.

One last point... If you feel you absolutely must intervene instead of following the course of wisdom and calling it in and letting the cops handle it -- do so decisively.  There's no room for half measures.  You're not paid to simply restrain and arrest someone.  And when it comes to serious or deadly bodily harm -- neither are cops; we shoot to stop the threat.  That's a polite circumlocution to avoid saying that there are no warning shots, there's no shooting to wound, and that if we're shooting -- someone's probably going to get killed.


----------



## Drac (Jan 2, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not a fan of private citizens intervening with guns, simply because it's all to easy for that gun to end up in the hands of the criminal


 
Yes, it happens alot



			
				jks9199 said:
			
		

> Police officers shoot other plain-clothes officers from their own agency because of miscommunication and misidentification; how much greater is the chance that a civilian will be the victim of such a mistake?


 
More often that the media knows about..




			
				jks9199 said:
			
		

> we shoot to stop the threat. That's a polite circumlocution to avoid saying that there are no warning shots, there's no shooting to wound, and that if we're shooting -- someone's probably going to get killed.


 
PLEASE folks don't buy into the crap that the movies have foisted off on the public for years.A perfect example is Danny Glover's line in *"Lethal* *Weapon'' *about shooting someone in the arm or leg..


----------



## Explorer (Jan 21, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I'm curious about the numbers, too.  I've never seen an explanation for the numbers that some pro-gun rights organizations claim that makes sense to me.



There are a few places to check for numbers.  There was an excellent study done that is now in book form "More Guns, Less Crime".  It's a county by county sutdy of the US and, despite the hysterical cries of the far left, has been thoroughly peer reviewed.  I highly reccommend it.  My brother, who did statistics at Columbia, reviewed the methodology and said it was as good as he'd seen.

There was a study published in CRIMINOLOGY back in 2004 by Tark and Kleck from the criminology dept at Florida State.  It costs about 8 bucks to have them fax it to you ... it's a great read.

If one was really serious ... contact (promise me you'll keep reading) the NRA ... they will be more than happy to cite the studies and researchers.  They'll help you find the raw data behind their claims.  Despite what many say about the group, they are quite keen on making sure they keep things on the up and up.

As a matter of fact I"ve found in my personal research that gun proponents seem to be a bit more forthcoming in thier claims than the anti-gun folks I've dealt with.  It could be my own bias showing but here's one quick example:  just before More Guns Less Crime was published the author called a lady with an anti-gun group and asked her to review his study ... she wouldn't give him the time of day.  After the book came out, she gave her 'review' to network TV news saying the methodology was flawed, the numbers were fabricated and so on.  THEN she called the author and asked for a review copy.  He'd seen the interview and asked why she needed a review copy as she had presented herself on national television as someone who had read the work.  She then hung up on him.


----------

