# TKD and HKD



## Manny (Jun 18, 2008)

I'am a 1th degree black belt in TKD, this years I will do my 2nd degree black belt, however I would like to train Hap Ki Do because I feel this is more self defense orientes and want to improve my self defense techniques. Saddly in mi city there is only one HKD dojan but is not a respetable one. How dificult can be the transition from TKD to HKD?

Manny


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## zDom (Jun 18, 2008)

Every individual is different, but I would say the transition would not be too difficult.

What might be difficult is trying to do both at the same time as there ARE differences.

To give you some background, I started hapkido a month or two after I started  taekwondo. I was, at that time, doing TKD almost every day of the week and hapkido one day per week.

When I hit Il Gup (red belt) in TKD and blue belt (an intermediate belt) in HKD, I took a break from HKD to focus on my TKD black belt test. The break ended up being long enough for me to go to 2nd dan in TKD. About, oh, 6 or 7 years ago I retired from TKD to do HKD exclusively.

As both classes are Korean arts and were from the same (U.S.) kwan and ultimately from the same grandmaster, there is a significant amount of overlap in my situation. That is to say, the kicking is mostly the same &#8212; but not entirely.

Since retiring from TKD to study HKD exclusively, I have noticed my kicking is, well, HAPKIDO kicking now, although there is a TKD influence remaining.

Your situation may be tougher in that your hapkido school, whoever you select, may want you to do things completely different than you are used to doing things now.

On the other hand, changing your kicks slightly is not as hard, I think, as a new student who has NO kicking experience/training learning them for the first time. Moreover, it should also be easier for you, a Korean stylist, than someone who has Japanese or Chinese kicking training.

Hand striking, I would think, should not be a problem.

Hope this is helpful.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 18, 2008)

Manny said:


> I'am a 1th degree black belt in TKD, this years I will do my 2nd degree black belt, however I would like to train Hap Ki Do because I feel this is more self defense orientes and want to improve my self defense techniques. Saddly in mi city there is only one HKD dojan but is not a respetable one. How dificult can be the transition from TKD to HKD?
> 
> Manny



On many techniques, you are likely to see as much variation between instructors as between the two arts.

I spent some time training Hapkido more moving back to Tae Kwon Do and, but my Tae Kwon Do instructors have usually cross trained in Hapkido, and my Hapkido instructor trained in Tae Kwon Do (ironically, my Hapkido instructor was a Dan student of my current Tae Kwon Do instructor ).

Anyway, I've never had much trouble between the two... like I said, I think likely as much variation between instructors as between the two arts, at least for most kicks and hand strikes.

The biggest real difference I see between the two has to do with a certain amount of philosophy of defense.  Tae Kwon Do  blocks are done with the mentality of attacking/damaging the attacking limb.  Hapkido blocks are mechanically very similar but the application is different because they are deployed more as an attempt to redirect the attacking limb.

*caveat - I only trained Hapkido ~18 mos and haven't quite reached Dan in Tae Kwon Do either so my comments are not authoritative in any way.


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## KELLYG (Jun 18, 2008)

I think that Hapkido and Taekwando are different enough that the styles would not get confused.  Hapkido is a softer art, more rediredtion of the attacker's energy.  I took Hapkido for a while and the three biggest differences are:  There is no Poomse in Hapkio, there are a lot of throws and falls and the kicks are generally directed to waist and down. One of our favorite sayings was to :become one with the mat: because you will spend a lot of time there.


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## Manny (Jun 18, 2008)

Thank you all, as I said HKD is a project and right now I don't know of a good dojan/sambunim in my area.

I'm 40 and not as felxible and stronger like in my youth so I think that HKD wich emphatized control and kicks not so high could be good for me, I'm not in tournament circuit, I like self defense a lot and think HKD coud be nice in a grown person like me.

If only TKD would put more self defense into the every day class I will feel happier.

In my dojan sambunim teache self defense maybe once or twice a month and that's a ad thing cause there are some people that wants self defense classes only. I really don't need to perform flying spining kicks waht I need is to learn how to defend myself inthe steets with simple and efective moves.

Manny


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## matt.m (Jun 21, 2008)

Manny,

My path is similiar to zDom's.  Interestingly enough I was very into wrestling and judo, in grade school.  My dad-zDom's instructor taught me a lot of hapkido before going into the Marines.  I was on the All Marine Judo team and an alternate for the wrestling team as well.

I have received my 2nd dan in Judo, purple in hapkido-upper belt, and will test for purple in Tae Kwan do on the next test.  I took essentially a yr. and a half between hard core tkd and kept up more readily with hapkido.  However, the time taken away from Tae Kwon Do was the beginning of starting my judo class in the st. louis school.  I can test for purple any time for purple in tkd.  However, I have been working with the kids and lower ranks so much it is making my basics better.  BTW: I am crippled from the Marine Corps where the long and short of the scenerio is that I wear a custom fit titanium leg brace on each leg and walk with a cane.

So remember my friend, slow and steady wins the race and you will come out victorious, only if you believe yourself to be able to do so.

Take care my friend.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 23, 2008)

I just began hapkido in March, so my experience is hardly authoritative, but thus far, I have had no trouble transitioning from one class to the other and back.  

Daniel


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## Zendokan (Jun 27, 2008)

Well the difficult is that when you go for the self-defence of HKD you will have to unlearn a few TKD competition techniques.
For example:

-TKD sideway stance to an opponent, it limits your attack and defense angles in HKD.
- jumping your kicks, in self-defence you don't wear a dobok, more a jeans and you don't get the chance to do a warming-up or stretching.
-never use a back kick when the opponent is standing in front of you, works in TKD competition because you can't attack the back there but and thus it's a competition favorite attack, in self-defence is it quiet stupid to turn your back to an agressor.

That are the most important things you have too look at but for the rest you can do TKD and HKD together without too much problems.

greetz,

Zendokan


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## Chris from CT (Jun 29, 2008)

KELLYG said:


> One of our favorite sayings was to :become one with the mat: because you will spend a lot of time there.


 
Love it! Classic!


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## imstriker (Jun 30, 2008)

Zendokan said:


> Well the difficult is that when you go for the self-defence of HKD you will have to unlearn a few TKD competition techniques.
> For example:
> 
> -TKD sideway stance to an opponent, it limits your attack and defense angles in HKD.
> ...


 
Good post and good insights. 

  Thanks,
  imstriker


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## zDom (Jul 1, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> I just began hapkido in March, so my experience is hardly authoritative, but thus far, I have had no trouble transitioning from one class to the other and back.
> 
> Daniel



Neither did I  at lower ranks. And for that matter, maybe today, to some extent.

But my instructor said, and I believe is is absolutely correct, that you end up being one of two things: a taekwondo-ist who also does hapkido OR a hapkido-ist who also does taekwondo.

I could go back to taekwondo, I suppose, and to SOME it would appear I could do so with ease. But a critical eye would see that I would be doing things in a hapkido-ish manner.

It became clear to me that it was obvious on the day I decided to compete with Yu Sin during a tournament a couple years ago even though I hadn't trained taekwondo in years.

Someone came up to me later in the day and said, "Wow, I've never seen somebody do a soft-style Yu Sin before ..." :erg: (I THOUGHT I was doing it pretty much like I always did it ... )


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## matt.m (Jul 1, 2008)

There will come a time where one will need more attention to rank up.  For example.....In Dec 06 I tested and passed both blue in hapkido and tae kwon do.  However around May of 07 I began teaching a Judo class and have completely delved into growing that.  I tested in Oct 07 for Purple in hapkido and received my 2nd dan in Judo.  However, I am preparing to test for purple in tkd before I test for brown in hapkido.

Just my .02.........Oh by the way zDom's instructor is my father.  He is right.  In TKD I look like a hapkido guy trying to do some Tae Kwon Do, all power technique.  In hapkido during throwing I look like a Judo guy doing hapkido throwing.  Although in Moo Sul Kwan the throwing is pretty much the same so no big deal.  However, in tkd I do hapkido style kicking.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 14, 2008)

zDom said:


> To give you some background, I started hapkido a month or two after I started taekwondo. I was, at that time, doing TKD almost every day of the week and hapkido one day per week.


Sounds familiar; after a near twenty year break from taekwondo and karate to study sword arts and fencing, I started back in taekwondo, then hapkido about a year later for the first time.  Same GM, too.  I wasn't nearly as far into hapkido when I was placing the weight of my training time in taekwondo in preparation for my own first dan test, and now that I've passed (yay!) I am now back to a more even split between the two, with a little more weight on hapkido.

Daniel


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## Brad Dunne (Oct 14, 2008)

"in tkd I do hapkido style kicking". {Matt}............

Slightly off topic perhaps, but what do you feel / see is the difference between the two, as far as the style you study?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 14, 2008)

The biggest difference that I see is the general height of the kicks; in taekwondo sparring (WTF), all of the acceptable targets are waist level and above, and there seems to be a general emphasis on higher, flashier kicks.

Also, in hapkido, we train to strike with the balls of our feet when we front roundhouse kick, rather than with the instep.

The hapkido blocks tend to be more circular and we learn a greater variety of hand techniques.  Our evening taekwondo class has some hapkido worked into it, so in the case of our school, the hapkido class has many more locks, throws, and takedowns than our taekwondo class, versus a difference of taekwondo not having them at all.

Daniel


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## exile (Oct 14, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> ...what do you feel / see is the difference between the two, as far as the style you study?





Celtic Tiger said:


> ...The hapkido blocks tend to be more circular and we learn a greater variety of hand techniques.  Our evening taekwondo class has some hapkido worked into it, so in the case of our school, the hapkido class has many more locks, throws, and takedowns than our taekwondo class, versus a difference of taekwondo not having them at all.
> 
> Daniel



TKD has a wealth of hand techs, many implicit in the hyungs, as Stuart A's and Simon O' Neill's books. They are probably neglected to some extent at many if not most dojangs in favor of kicking techniques, but we emphasize them at our school, and try to show our beginners and junior colored belts the wealth of combat techs built into seemingly innocent kihon moves; run a rising/horizontal elbow strike, a spearing elbow strike and a downward hammerfist together smoothly with no breaks, and what you get is a simple-looking down block; throw in a pivot, though, and the downblock/retraction becomes a throw&#8212;that sort of thing. I think though that even if you include a full range of hand techs, there is a crucial _strategic_ difference between the two. While TKD certainly has circular elements and controlling moves, it tends to recruit them to set up linear finishing strikes. My impression from the various flavors of HKD I've seen and been exposed to is that the strategic view of the fight in the latter&#8212;where you want to take things to in order to finish it on your terms&#8212;is much closer to jiujitsu. I suspect that the real difference in the 'souls' of the two arts is this split between them in strategic world view...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 14, 2008)

Indeed, Exile, taekwondo does have a wealth of hand techniques, which we learn, but don't spar with.  

Daniel


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## Brad Dunne (Oct 16, 2008)

OK, we'll try this again..............."in tkd I do hapkido style kicking".

The question was, "what do you feel / see is the difference between the two, as far as the style you study?"...........The intent is/was to determine the specific difference(s) in the kicking aspect. Just what is hapkido style kicking? Just what is it that some Hapkido practicioners do different in performing their kicks, that promotes this assessment. We're not talking about target selection (height), or ball vs instep (both are used in TKD as well as HKD), but the excecution of the kick(s).


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## zDom (Oct 16, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> OK, we'll try this again..............."in tkd I do hapkido style kicking".
> 
> The question was, "what do you feel / see is the difference between the two, as far as the style you study?"...........The intent is/was to determine the specific difference(s) in the kicking aspect. Just what is hapkido style kicking? Just what is it that some Hapkido practicioners do different in performing their kicks, that promotes this assessment. We're not talking about target selection (height), or ball vs instep (both are used in TKD as well as HKD), but the excecution of the kick(s).



There are subtle differences.

For example, while we in MSK use a thrusting side kick in both hapkido and taekwondo, in TKD they tend to hold it in the locked out position for a split second. In HKD we rechamber immediately after the thrust is completed.

There are also subtle differences that come down more to a mindset than actual mechanical differences.

In TKD, the mindset is "blast them with a kick to end the fight."

In HKD, a kick MIGHT be a finishing kick, but then it might also be a stunner to set them up for a finishing throw. Or, conversely, it may be to finish them AFTER a throw.


Kick selection or palette also tends to be wider:

I find we do a whole lot more front thrusting heel (stomp) and inverted round (twist) kicks in hapkido,

We also regularly train kicks that are often omitted from TKD curriculums (or rather, never borrowed from hapkido in the frist place):

the front heel (the front leg version of the spinning heel),
the front upraising heel kick,
low section twist kick using the heel as the weapon,
"scythe" kick,
inverted hook kick to the back of their knee.



Again, these are subtle differences. Try explaining to a non-martial artist how a savate kick is different than a TKD kick or a TKD kick is different than Muay Thai kick. 

We as martial artists can see SEE subtle differences &#8212; explaining is sometimes more difficult (not always: some differences are easy enough to describe).

Hapkido and TKD kicks are clearly more alike than, for example TKD and Gojo-Ryu kicks.

And then, I'm sure a lot depends on the schools and instructors, too


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## Brad Dunne (Oct 16, 2008)

Appriciate the reply zDom. I've often wondered how Hapkidoists, myself included, have always taken to the given offering that TKD borrowed from Hapkido, when in reality it's the other way around to a great extent. My rational for this is that when Choi started teaching his version of what we now call Hapkido, kicks we've been given to understand, were not that important and were minimal at best. Jae Han Ji, it's reported, is the one who introduced the kicking segment and the name "Hapkido". Now since Choi didn't have these kicks and Ji did, it stands to reason that Ji learned them from Karate, so this then tends to lead us to the conclusion that Hapkido borrowed from Korean Karate and not the other way around. Before Choi came back to Korea, Koreans were doing whatever form of Japanese karate that was in vouge at the time, so the time line for inclusion of techniques (kicks) stems from this assessment. If it's agreed that this line of thinking is/should be correct, then whatever subtlies exist between the kicking aspects of TKD vs HKD are nothing more than personal preference, dictated by whatever school one is attending. *A disclaimer here is warranted..........I'm not refering to todays "sport TKD", but rather the pre-sport or old school, as folks like to call it, TKD.


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## Seth T. (Oct 23, 2008)

According to Ji Han Jae he did learn some kicks from Choi but supplemented them with Taekkyon (forgive my spelling, it may not be correct) kicks that he learned from Taoist Lee. I have only met him a few times, but he is my instructor's teacher and my instructor has never mentioned any kicks being specifically borrowed from karate or TKD. 

What I can tell you from experience though is that in Ji Han Jae's system, Sin Moo Hapkido, we have a few kicks that most TKD practitioners would recognize right away, but the majority of them they would not.


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## zDom (Oct 23, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> Appriciate the reply zDom. I've often wondered how Hapkidoists, myself included, have always taken to the given offering that TKD borrowed from Hapkido, when in reality it's the other way around to a great extent. My rational for this is that when Choi started teaching his version of what we now call Hapkido, kicks we've been given to understand, were not that important and were minimal at best. Jae Han Ji, it's reported, is the one who introduced the kicking segment and the name "Hapkido". Now since Choi didn't have these kicks and Ji did, it stands to reason that Ji learned them from Karate, so this then tends to lead us to the conclusion that Hapkido borrowed from Korean Karate and not the other way around. Before Choi came back to Korea, Koreans were doing whatever form of Japanese karate that was in vouge at the time, so the time line for inclusion of techniques (kicks) stems from this assessment. If it's agreed that this line of thinking is/should be correct, then whatever subtlies exist between the kicking aspects of TKD vs HKD are nothing more than personal preference, dictated by whatever school one is attending. *A disclaimer here is warranted..........I'm not refering to todays "sport TKD", but rather the pre-sport or old school, as folks like to call it, TKD.





Seth T. said:


> According to Ji Han Jae he did learn some kicks from Choi but supplemented them with Taekkyon (forgive my spelling, it may not be correct) kicks that he learned from Taoist Lee. I have only met him a few times, but he is my instructor's teacher and my instructor has never mentioned any kicks being specifically borrowed from karate or TKD.
> 
> What I can tell you from experience though is that in Ji Han Jae's system, Sin Moo Hapkido, we have a few kicks that most TKD practitioners would recognize right away, but the majority of them they would not.



According to Hapkido histories I've read (the best among the being Dakin Burdick's), two men are credited with expanding hapkido's kicking beyond what Choi brought back: KIM, Moo Woong and Ji Han Jae.



Wikipedia, which references Dr. He-young KIMM's "Hapkido Bible"  says:



> Kim Moo Hong
> Main article: Kim Moo Hong
> (alternately rendered as Kim Moo Woong or Kim Mu Hyun)
> A student from the Choi and Suh's Yu Sool Kwan dojang was Kim Moo Hong who later taught at Suh's Joong Ang dojang in Daegu. Suh, who promoted Kim to 4th degree, credits Kim with the development of many kicks which are still used in hapkido today. Kim apparentally took the concepts from very basic kicks he had learned from Choi and went to a temple to work on developing them to a much greater degree. Later, in 1961, Kim travelled to Seoul and while staying at Ji Han Jae's Sung Moo Kwan dojang they finalized the kicking curriculum.




TKD, which came from Shotokan, had only a couple kicks when it started out: (front, side, round?)

My instructor, Master Mike Morton, was told by his instructor, GM Lee H. Park, that most of TKD's kicks were borrowed from hapkido.

Park was a student of WON, Kwang-Wha (a student of Suh Bok-sub and Choi) who founded the (Korean) Musulkwan.

(Interestingly, information about WON, Kwang-Wha was been REMOVED from the hapkido entry and from Wikipedia entirely.. hmm) 

Kim Moo Woong also taught at WON's Musulkwan.


There is no doubt that Park's kicking (and by extention, mine) comes from Kim Moo Woong.

This same kicking would have also been used in Park's TKD.

Seth's, obviously, comes from Ji Han Jae.

Documentation will be impossible or nearly so to find. But oral history seems to be on the mark (and consistent on this matter): TKD borrowed kicks from hapkido to become the "kicking art" it is today.

Of course, it makes a better story for TKD to claim it goes directly back to taekyon, but there has been PLENTY written about that.

Going back to the kicking in MSK in particular: As it ALL came from Park, yea  chances are it is more of a matter of mindset of TKD/HKD students that makes the kicking different  but differences are evident nonetheless


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## hapkidonet (Oct 23, 2008)

matt.m said:


> Manny,
> 
> I have received my 2nd dan in Judo, purple in hapkido-upper belt, and will test for purple in Tae Kwan do on the next test.  I took essentially a yr. and a half between hard core tkd and kept up more readily with hapkido.  However, the time taken away from Tae Kwon Do was the beginning of starting my judo class in the st. louis school.  I can test for purple any time for purple in tkd.  However, I have been working with the kids and lower ranks so much it is making my basics better.  BTW: I am crippled from the Marine Corps where the long and short of the scenerio is that I wear a custom fit titanium leg brace on each leg and walk with a cane.
> 
> So remember my friend, slow and steady wins the race and you will come out victorious, only if you believe yourself to be able to do so.



I congratulate you on your determination. You set an example for the rest of us.


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## howard (Oct 23, 2008)

zDom said:


> According to Hapkido histories I've read (the best among the being Dakin Burdick's), two men are credited with expanding hapkido's kicking beyond what Choi brought back...


Regarding what Choi brought back, it was a very limited kicking repertoire. This stands to reason, because he learned a style of jujutsu, and the traditional styles of jujutsu have few kicking techniques.

To see the ten basic kicking applications that Choi taught, you can go to the Jungkikwan website (link below). From the home page, select "English", then scroll down the page until you see the "Hapkido kicks" link in the left column. Click there to see the ten kicks that Choi taught.

It's noteworthy too that Choi taught that high kicks are dangerous because if you miss, they leave you off balance and, therefore, vulnerable
to counters. Keeping your own balance, and taking your opponent's balance at the moment his attack is initiated (and never allowing him to regain it), are very important fundametal principles of Choi's teachings.

Link: http://jungkikwan.com/


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## hapkidonet (Oct 23, 2008)

Brad Dunne said:


> Appriciate the reply zDom. I've often wondered how Hapkidoists, myself included, have always taken to the given offering that TKD borrowed from Hapkido, when in reality it's the other way around to a great extent. My rational for this is that when Choi started teaching his version of what we now call Hapkido, kicks we've been given to understand, were not that important and were minimal at best. Jae Han Ji, it's reported, is the one who introduced the kicking segment and the name "Hapkido". Now since Choi didn't have these kicks and Ji did, it stands to reason that Ji learned them from Karate...



That's where you lost me. How does that stand to reason? Native Korean martial arts have always emphasized kicks. And karate kicks are far more limited in scope than Hapkido. It makes much more sense that Ji Han Jae would have learned his kicks from Korean monks and masters who had preserved native techniques.


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## zDom (Oct 24, 2008)

howard said:


> Regarding what Choi brought back, it was a very limited kicking repertoire. This stands to reason, because he learned a style of jujutsu, and the traditional styles of jujutsu have few kicking techniques.
> 
> To see the ten basic kicking applications that Choi taught, you can go to the Jungkikwan website (link below). From the home page, select "English", then scroll down the page until you see the "Hapkido kicks" link in the left column. Click there to see the ten kicks that Choi taught.
> 
> ...



This is why many maintain that while Choi is responsible for the modern hapkido, it wasn't really hapkido until his students expanded on what he had taught them.

We do (in MSK) still train the low kicks, btw, and understand those are almost always the "best option" in self defense/combat. But then due to Kim Moo Woong's influence, we also kick high in training and practice other dynamic kicking (one of the things Won's Musulkwan was known for).

This emphasis on low kicking is yet another difference between HKD and TKD kicking. We spend a LOT more time "below the belt" than our TKD cousins.

The kick shown as #7 at Howard's link (best described, IMO, as an inverted hook kick to the back of the knee), for example, is one that we do but I have never seen TKD practitioners train.


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## matt.m (Nov 26, 2008)

Well, I couldn't agree more with zDom.  My dad is his instructor, btw.  I still maintain that it is all about the mechanics and reason the kick is used/taught for that makes the difference.  Not only that but zDom is 100% correct.  We believe in low kicking, yeah high kicking is great and we do practice them.  However, knee and mid section are key.

In TKD when doing sparring drills I was always told something to the effect of "Turn the heel kicks into crescents," or "Rotate your back leg to do the 'TKD' arc kick, not the 'hapkido' arc kick.

Like z said, the differences are subtle but quite obvious to the trained eye.


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