# Can Anyone Identify This Technique For Me?



## Zenjael (Jun 8, 2012)

Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.

I believe this is called chaining techniques, but this can also refer to consecutively throwing multiple techniques together in a string.

What I am referring to is what stops just short of merging techniques (such as a chop with the ridge hand for a pressing chop) and is this;

the person initiates the handstrike by extending the hand fingers extended like a spearhand. The hand extends toward the target, and before contact is made, the hand folds into a fist and connects. I've found this technique, which I learned from emulating another teacher of mine, is superior to a normal punch, because it allows a person to get through a person's defenses, pretty much every time. My teacher had a reputation that no matter how you held your hands, or tried to defend, he could always connect, and I believe this is the technique why.

It very much is a spear-hand to a punch, though I have altered it to go spearhand to palm strike, though I have also been able to insert ridge-hand techniques into it now.

Does anyone have any idea what this process is called, or what this technique is called? 

I am also unsure if I should tense the fingers as I extend the arm with a spearhand, for though the arm is loose, I can see both advantage and disadvantage from locking the fingers. For example, if blocked, it could lead to injury. If retained loose the fingers can also transition to the next hand position more easily. For now I keep them loose until I've found definitive answers, but so far have unfortunately not.

I found this technique in Chung Do Kwan, though I can see how it could have been pulled from Wing Chun. Thank you to whoever can point me in the right direction.


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## clfsean (Jun 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.
> 
> I believe this is called chaining techniques, but this can also refer to consecutively throwing multiple techniques together in a string.
> 
> ...



There's no Wing Chun in that. And that's not the way CMA "chains" techniques or strikes together.

All that is idea you're talking about is taking a narrow implement & changing it to a larger implement once past defenses. It's sneaky, but nothing else.


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## Zenjael (Jun 8, 2012)

Sorry, I should describe it further. The mechanic operates off the centerline, always. I've never been able to do it from coming over the shoulder, only by aiming inward, then extending, much like a vertical fist from the style, or at least a snapping punch. My apology for saying it was Wing Chun, just that I see how some theory could have been yanked from it to create it. Considering Chung Do Kwan adopted its handwork from Bruce Lee's training to Jhoon Rhee, it's not unfeasible that it is an altered Wing chun technique I am just not familiar with.


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## Grenadier (Jun 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> What I am referring to is what stops just short of merging techniques (such as a chop with the ridge hand for a pressing chop) and is this;
> 
> the person initiates the handstrike by extending the hand fingers extended like a spearhand. The hand extends toward the target, and before contact is made, the hand folds into a fist and connects. I've found this technique, which I learned from emulating another teacher of mine, is superior to a normal punch, because it allows a person to get through a person's defenses, pretty much every time. My teacher had a reputation that no matter how you held your hands, or tried to defend, he could always connect, and I believe this is the technique why.



What you are describing is nothing more than disguising a technique, simply by changing things at the last second.  

Against a neophyte who focuses his attention on the hands, it may have some small benefit, but if they're that inexperienced, then you shouldn't have any problem landing any conventionally thrown punches, etc.  

Against an experienced fighter who focuses his attention on the wrists, forearms, or elbows, though, it's not going to help at all.  



> I am also unsure if I should tense the fingers as I extend the arm with a spearhand, for though the arm is loose, I can see both advantage and disadvantage from locking the fingers. For example, if blocked, it could lead to injury. If retained loose the fingers can also transition to the next hand position more easily. For now I keep them loose until I've found definitive answers, but so far have unfortunately not.



If your spear hand is blocked while your fingers are loose, then you're going to face an even greater possibility of injuring your fingers.  While the chances of injury to your finger tips are less, the chances of bending back your fingers, dislocating a knuckle, etc., are much greater.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 8, 2012)

It's called utilizing points on a circle. I think everyone is fearful you will develop a bad habit of sloppy technique but make sure you are positioning your body at the same time if you explore this further, and it shouldn't be that much of a problem.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 8, 2012)

Its not a special technique, its a trick, as others have said. A risky trick. I can perhaps see switching to a push with the palm instead of a punch, assuming You used the lead hand, before using the rear hand to throw an actual punch. In other words, a distraction instead of a strike. Or with the rear hand, then executing a lead hook punch.
Hey, its no less risky than spearhanding towards a guy.


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## jks9199 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'd simply say it's called punching.  A beginner in many styles learns to throw a punch by making a fist, and functionally flinging it at the opponent, almost like a rock.  With time and training, you learn to punch relaxed, tensing and closing the fist fully just before impact.

Of course, with further practice, you can learn to deliver a series of strikes off of one punch motion, by first making contact with the fingertips in a spearhand, then the fist, then the wrist or elbow, even up to the shoulder.  (Personally, I don't like spear hands; my fingers aren't conditioned for them.  So I generally would go fist to elbow...)


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## Zenjael (Jun 8, 2012)

> Of course, with further practice, you can learn to deliver a series of  strikes off of one punch motion, by first making contact with the  fingertips in a spearhand, then the fist, then the wrist or elbow, even  up to the shoulder.  (Personally, I don't like spear hands; my fingers  aren't conditioned for them.  So I generally would go fist to elbow...)



This I am familiar with. I say throw as many techniques as possible behind every motion for efficiency's sake, I say.



> Its not a special technique, its a trick, as others have said. A risky  trick. I can perhaps see switching to a push with the palm instead of a  punch, assuming You used the lead hand, before using the rear hand to  throw an actual punch. In other words, a distraction instead of a  strike. Or with the rear hand, then executing a lead hook punch.
> Hey, its no less risky than spearhanding towards a guy.



Im inclined to agree it's a trick, my only reservation stems that the strike itself depends on the spearhand for the motion. The smaller surface area really does allow for one to generate greater speed. It's not that it's spearhand, switch to punch. It's punch, building on what the spearhand laid down. But perhaps this is also arguably the same thing- All I know is that the prior technique is not used to 'fake' or lead a person into thinking I'm spearhanding. The spearhand itself is allowing the mechanic to move faster through their guard, and penetrate, from what I can see.


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## dougmukashi (Jun 8, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> I'd simply say it's called punching. A beginner in many styles learns to throw a punch by making a fist, and functionally flinging it at the opponent, almost like a rock. With time and training, you learn to punch relaxed, tensing and closing the fist fully just before impact.
> 
> Of course, with further practice, you can learn to deliver a series of strikes off of one punch motion, by first making contact with the fingertips in a spearhand, then the fist, then the wrist or elbow, even up to the shoulder. (Personally, I don't like spear hands; my fingers aren't conditioned for them. So I generally would go fist to elbow...)



Yes, keeping hand open until impact is a better way, increases ki flow.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Im inclined to agree it's a trick, my only reservation stems that the strike itself depends on the spearhand for the motion. The smaller surface area really does allow for one to generate greater speed. It's not that it's spearhand, switch to punch. It's punch, building on what the spearhand laid down. But perhaps this is also arguably the same thing- All I know is that the prior technique is not used to 'fake' or lead a person into thinking I'm spearhanding. The spearhand itself is allowing the mechanic to move faster through their guard, and penetrate, from what I can see.



So any Kick that begins with a Chamber is actually a Knee Strike, and not a Kick?


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 8, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> So any Kick that begins with a Chamber is actually a Knee Strike, and not a Kick?


It should be.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 9, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> It should be.



I mean as in, when You do, say, a Front Kick, it isnt really a Front Kick. Theres no such thing. Its a Knee Strike.


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## Zenjael (Jun 9, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> So any Kick that begins with a Chamber is actually a Knee Strike, and not a Kick?



If... the intention is to knee strike, and then execute, I would say this would be the case, though I understand your sarcasm.

But we are speaking about the kind of nuance where in a single motion a person can get struck 3-4 times, all different techniques, as jks pointed out. If in the process of executing a front kick, you can knee them with degree of skill, I'd say why not differentiate the techniques?

But even then, that's still having a biased slant toward the front kick being the primary technique. In what my OP mentions, both techniques, separately, are required to execute this different maneuver. The reason it isn't a feint, or fake, as some have suggested (though it could be) is because the hand is moving too fast. The spear hand is designed to do nothing but shoot, or penetrate through the guard, even if the arms are locked together.

And to be honest, you bring up a good point. The chambering-kicks should be considered different than non-chamber kicks, though can oft be combined. If there's an entire methodology toward kicking which introduces an added step, which creates a marked differentiation in power... I'd say it warrants its own classification with kicking. Likewise, it's component parts, if combat oriented, could arguably be considered unique techniques in their own right.

And for my own sarcasm, a muai thai fighter might sardonically consider a front kick... a sloppy knee strike


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## Cyriacus (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> If... the intention is to knee strike, and then execute, I would say this would be the case, though I understand your sarcasm.
> 
> But we are speaking about the kind of nuance where in a single motion a person can get struck 3-4 times, all different techniques, as jks pointed out. If in the process of executing a front kick, you can knee them with degree of skill, I'd say why not differentiate the techniques?



Because there are very few shapes and forms of Front Kicks that dont involve picking the Knee up. Its part of the Kick.



Zenjael said:


> But even then, that's still having a biased slant toward the front kick being the primary technique. In what my OP mentions, both techniques, separately, are required to execute this different maneuver. The reason it isn't a feint, or fake, as some have suggested (though it could be) is because the hand is moving too fast. The spear hand is designed to do nothing but shoot, or penetrate through the guard, even if the arms are locked together.
> 
> And to be honest, you bring up a good point. The chambering-kicks should be considered different than non-chamber kicks, though can oft be combined. If there's an entire methodology toward kicking which introduces an added step, which creates a marked differentiation in power... I'd say it warrants its own classification with kicking. Likewise, it's component parts, if combat oriented, could arguably be considered unique techniques in their own right.





Not exactly relevant, My Good Man. But sure.



Zenjael said:


> And for my own sarcasm, a muai thai fighter might sardonically consider a front kick... a sloppy knee strike



You realise You pretty much just made up for anything You may have said or end up saying in This thread by way of jabbing at Muay Thai not being known for its Front Kicks


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## Zenjael (Jun 9, 2012)

> You realise You pretty much just made up for anything You may have said  or end up saying in This thread by way of jabbing at Muay Thai not being  known for its Front Kicks



In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.

Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick. The Moo Duk Kwan I first learned was developed from Taekyon, which at least in terms of its strikes, I can't help but see great similarity between the kicking styles south of China. Pretty much anything in southern China, and below, had phenomenal kicking ability. I pay great respect toward muai thai, and highly recommend anyone who's learned or practiced the WTF variant of TKD to pursue study in Muai Thai to further their kicking ability (especially in terms of power).

God help the other person if they figure out how to incorporare chamber kicks (from say the vein of Shotokan). It's not fun for the other.



> Because there are very few shapes and forms of Front Kicks that dont involve picking the Knee up. Its part of the Kick... Not exactly relevant, My Good Man. But sure.



You're right. I can think of... one. The snap kick, and it's pretty much only good for ball shots, chin, and I suppose hands (elbow when not locked or bent. You know, hit it when it's smart and won't injure you for it). But I think what I spoke about is relevant, because we're talking about a technique which transitions from another technique, building on it, creating a different technique. For example, I worked with a silat practitioner about a week ago, and because I have particularly fast hands (im not bragging, im small, so I focus exclusively on developing this so I can compensate for the inequality) he asked if he could practice blocking jabs I threw at him.

I obliged, but asked him if he would prefer me to use, in my own words, 'a normal punch', or the punch I prefered to employ, which is what this thread is about.

Well, he was curious about the latter, but we worked on the former first. What I found was that though he was expecting the jab almost everytime (I may not telegraph, but if you know the front jab is the only thing coming, it's not hard to predict, block or counter) and blocked that generally, this technique in the OP was, and could not be blocked by him. When training, a 1st dan should be able to go full force, full speed, and stop less than a millimeter from its target. Control, and precision. This translates to more than just hitting, however. It translates toward accuracy in getting our technique to the target, and when the entire point of a technique is just to get the hand positioned (such as this technique in the spearhand to only penetrate the guard, not make forceful contact) it is little surprise to me that it does, especially when that's what the technique has been designed to do... for this instance.

The relevance is that we're talking about stacking techniques, and we are acknowledging, or I suppose discussing, that there is a difference between chaining techniques, transitions, and combining. Some you can only do after great skill, while others are what you learn as a beginner or intermediate.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.
> 
> Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick. The Moo Duk Kwan I first learned was developed from Taekyon, which at least in terms of its strikes, I can't help but see great similarity between the kicking styles south of China. Pretty much anything in southern China, and below, had phenomenal kicking ability. I pay great respect toward muai thai, and highly recommend anyone who's learned or practiced the WTF variant of TKD to pursue study in Muai Thai to further their kicking ability (especially in terms of power).
> 
> ...



I'm really hoping I'm not the only one who hasn't got the foggiest idea what you are talking about.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.
> 
> Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick.



I was actually being serious - Of course They have teeping, but I find it humorous to jab at them not using the things too much, as compared to circular kicks.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.





dougmukashi said:


> Yes, keeping hand open until impact is a better way, increases ki flow.



Oh dear lord... should we just let these two discuss among themselves?

For the record, no, Doug, wrong. Opening on impact would be "better" for ki.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 9, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear lord... should we just let these two discuss among themselves?



Yes.


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## clfsean (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> In the back of my mind I thought that might be an issue, but I figured at the same time it's be like saying Wing Chun doesn't have good wristwork. Apologies, sometimes sarcasm comes off the exact opposite online, and then one looks like a fool. It happens.
> 
> Trust me, I am well aware of Muai Thai's ability to front kick. The Moo Duk Kwan I first learned was developed from Taekyon, which at least in terms of its strikes, I can't help but see great similarity between the kicking styles south of China. Pretty much anything in southern China, and below, had phenomenal kicking ability. I pay great respect toward muai thai, and highly recommend anyone who's learned or practiced the WTF variant of TKD to pursue study in Muai Thai to further their kicking ability (especially in terms of power).
> 
> ...



What ... Exactly ... Do you know or more likely, think you know, about southern CMA leg work?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos &amp; brevity of posts.


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## Zenjael (Jun 9, 2012)

> I was actually being serious - Of course They have teeping, but I find  it humorous to jab at them not using the things too much, as compared to  circular kicks.



All too true. Though, I take a stance of employing both. I find circles generate great power, while straight lines serve to guide them. One of the strongest kicks I have is a Roundhouse kick from WTF TKD, which employs a chamber from the kicking style of Shotokan. Instead of it being a straight roundhouse, or a round-kick (knee+leg are angled horizontally to ground) it's more of a 45 degree kick. It's still a roundhouse, and can be mistaken for a normal roundhouse from TKD, but the chamber is there, which at least in the WTF TKD (Moo Duk Kwan) I learned, isn't present apart from flying sidekicks.



clfsean said:


> What ... Exactly ... Do you know or more likely, think you know, about southern CMA leg work?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos &amp; brevity of posts.



I hope I can answer this in a way that is satisfactory. If not, my apologies, and I welcome any and all correction.

From what I understand, Korean legwork dates back over 2000 years, and arguably takes inspiration from Chinese Martial arts. Tang Soo Do directly translates to 'way of the Chinese hand' so take that as you will. No one knows where the origins of Tang Soo Do drew their inspiration, but much of Korea's culture has been innovation atop Chinese culture. Korean adaptation of the CMA's seems possible... especially when the name of the origin style IS 'Way of Chinese hand'.

I'm not sure how to answer your question, as you're asking a very broad question, but I feel like you expect some kind of specificity.


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## clfsean (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I hope I can answer this in a way that is satisfactory. If not, my apologies, and I welcome any and all correction.
> 
> From what I understand, Korean legwork dates back over 2000 years, and arguably takes inspiration from Chinese Martial arts. Tang Soo Do directly translates to 'way of the Chinese hand' so take that as you will. No one knows where the origins of Tang Soo Do drew their inspiration, but much of Korea's culture has been innovation atop Chinese culture. Korean adaptation of the CMA's seems possible... especially when the name of the origin style IS 'Way of Chinese hand'.
> 
> I'm not sure how to answer your question, as you're asking a very broad question, but I feel like you expect some kind of specificity.



Well... I'm curious about your experience with Southern Chinese Martial Arts. You have made reference to our kicking. You mentioned it, so I want to know about your experience with southern kicking training techniques, your experience in application/theories/power generation ... That kind of stuff. I don't really see where Tang Soo Do plays anywhere into your comments concerning that.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD. Please excuse typos &amp; brevity of posts.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> All too true. Though, I take a stance of employing both. I find circles generate great power, while straight lines serve to guide them. One of the strongest kicks I have is a Roundhouse kick from WTF TKD, which employs a chamber from the kicking style of Shotokan. Instead of it being a straight roundhouse, or a round-kick (knee+leg are angled horizontally to ground) it's more of a 45 degree kick. It's still a roundhouse, and can be mistaken for a normal roundhouse from TKD, but the chamber is there, which at least in the WTF TKD (Moo Duk Kwan) I learned, isn't present apart from flying sidekicks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know very little about TSD if you can't see that it comes from Shotokan karate and as for it being thousands of years old....


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## Zenjael (Jun 9, 2012)

> You know very little about TSD if you can't see that it comes from  Shotokan karate and as for it being thousands of years old....



From my understanding there are two forms of tang soo do, the original korean martial art (also known as subak) which split into Taekyon and yusul. Later, a new vein would be created in the 1940s by Hwang Ke. The later vein was based in large part on the prior, based off a recovered text. Though this is debated. Chung Do Kwan, definitely has its roots in Shotokan.

TSD/MDK is really grounded much more in taekyon than anything else. The tornado kick is ripped right out of that martial art.

Also, can we get back to the subject of the OP so this doesn't delineate. If you would like to talk about my background, let's do it in private, and keep to the subject matter. Keeps it simple, and from going the way things have before.

Thx.


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## Tez3 (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> From my understanding there are two forms of tang soo do, the original korean martial art (also known as subak) which split into Taekyon and yusul. Later, a new vein would be created in the 1940s by Hwang Ke. The later vein was based in large part on the prior, based off a recovered text. Though this is debated. Chung Do Kwan, definately has its roots in Shotokan.
> 
> TSD/MDK is really grounded much more in taekyon than anything else. The tornado kick is ripped right out of that martial art.



The tornado kick is TKD not TSD. 

I take it there isn't an style or art you know nothing about, you've studied them all I assume?


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## Cyriacus (Jun 9, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> All too true. Though, I take a stance of employing both. I find circles generate great power, while straight lines serve to guide them. One of the strongest kicks I have is a Roundhouse kick from WTF TKD, which employs a chamber from the kicking style of Shotokan.



I for one can Side Kick harder than any other kick - But thats just Me.


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

It must be so useful to be able to pick techniques out of so many different styles. However I'm reminded of that old story I've heard tell of the fox and the cat who sat under a tree discussing what would happen if the hunt came upon them, the fox was boasting of the all the things he could do if the hounds were after him, the cat said she only had one thing she could do, just as the fox was shaking his head at the her, the hounds were heard baying quite closely, the cat shot up the tree, the fox sat there debating which of his many, many techniques for evading the hounds he should use, he was still doing this when the hounds caught him. One technique done well versus many, guess which wins.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> It must be so useful to be able to pick techniques out of so many different styles. However I'm reminded of that old story I've heard tell of the fox and the cat who sat under a tree discussing what would happen if the hunt came upon them, the fox was boasting of the all the things he could do if the hounds were after him, the cat said she only had one thing she could do, just as the fox was shaking his head at the her, the hounds were heard baying quite closely, the cat shot up the tree, the fox sat there debating which of his many, many techniques for evading the hounds he should use, he was still doing this when the hounds caught him. One technique done well versus many, guess which wins.


The one that lands first?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 10, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> From what I understand, Korean legwork dates back over 2000 years, and arguably takes inspiration from Chinese Martial arts. Tang Soo Do directly translates to 'way of the Chinese hand' so take that as you will. No one knows where the origins of Tang Soo Do drew their inspiration, but much of Korea's culture has been innovation atop Chinese culture. Korean adaptation of the CMA's seems possible... especially when the name of the origin style IS 'Way of Chinese hand'.
> 
> I'm not sure how to answer your question, as you're asking a very broad question, but I feel like you expect some kind of specificity.





Zenjael said:


> From my understanding there are two forms of tang soo do, the original korean martial art (also known as subak) which split into Taekyon and yusul. Later, a new vein would be created in the 1940s by Hwang Ke. The later vein was based in large part on the prior, based off a recovered text. Though this is debated. Chung Do Kwan, definitely has its roots in Shotokan.
> 
> TSD/MDK is really grounded much more in taekyon than anything else. The tornado kick is ripped right out of that martial art.
> 
> ...



See, Alex, this is why we say for you to not put yourself forth as an expert in anything here.... Tang Soo Do is basically the Korean rendering of "Karate". The rest of this is so full of fantasy and badly researched "history" that you're better off just forgetting it all, and starting again. In a word, no.

EDIT: Oh, and nothing about your post said you have a clue about Southern Chinese martial arts kicking methods. You noticed that, right?


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> The one that lands first?




Which will be the one you train/rehearse for and can do instinctively knowing that it is effective. I don't think young Zenjael has ever heard of KISS.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think young Zenjael has ever heard of KISS.



Why you little... I'll K.I.S.S *YOU*! 

Hmm... doesn't work so well.... never mind!


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## Cyriacus (Jun 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Which will be the one you train/rehearse for and can do instinctively knowing that it is effective. I don't think young Zenjael has ever heard of KISS.


Exactly. For Me, itd more than likely be a right handed punch.


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## Tez3 (Jun 10, 2012)

Ah Vijai, as soon as I win the lottery I'm off to Oz, I promise!

Reading about how 'good' someone is at multiple styles and techniques makes me feel tired! What on earth is wrong with having one style and learning as much as you can about it and training the techniques in that? Even in MMA we have basics and don't pretend we know all styles, we use the techniques that work in a competitive environment. 

I'm interested in all martial arts, I know _of_ a great many, I've even had taster sessions with them at seminars, however I haven't _trained_ them and for me to start arguing with the practitioners of these styles would be absurd. I can see differences and the things that are the same within styles as I'm sure any experienced martial artist can but to claim knowledge in all styles is ridiculous...and tiresome. :idunno:


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Ah Vijai, as soon as I win the lottery I'm off to Oz, I promise!



Only if you promise a regiment of the Queens Guards and or Scots Guards won't suddenly decide to come down with you for a holiday, or next thing I know... Oh, look! They feel like using a poor ninja for target practice!



> Reading about how 'good' someone is at multiple styles and  techniques makes me feel tired! What on earth is wrong with having one  style and learning as much as you can about it and training the  techniques in that? Even in MMA we have basics and don't pretend we know  all styles, we use the techniques that work in a competitive  environment.
> 
> I'm interested in all martial arts, I know _of_ a great many, I've even had taster sessions with them at seminars, however I haven't _trained_  them and for me to start arguing with the practitioners of these styles  would be absurd. I can see differences and the things that are the same  within styles as I'm sure any experienced martial artist can but to  claim knowledge in all styles is ridiculous...and tiresome. :idunno:



Agreed. I for one am interested in the cross training aspect and I  might very well do that if I find an art that suits me but only after I  get to sufficient skill in my primary art so as not to become the fox in  your story from earlier. I've tried my hand at cross training and found  I'm not nearly at that level yet so while I can say I know a technique  or two from something else, I am by no means proficient at them let  alone a master! It seems a lot of people recently don't share that  attitude however, instead they believe they are more credible and/or  formidable if they collect arts and techniques without really investing  in any of them. I like to think of these people as a source of amusement  though and use all the responses they generate to actually do any  learning so that takes out a lot of the "tiresome" aspect for me 

With  regards to the OP though, go back to Page 1 of this thread and read the post by Grenadier (Post #4) or by JKS (Post #7). Print them out maybe and stick them on your monitor so you can see it all the time. Record an audio file and play it back on an mp3 player or your phone on loop. It's how we train at  the higher levels. It's safer for your fingers unless you've done  serious conditioning and ideally you should never need to chain 15  strikes together to get a desired effect or you're not hitting  particularly well I'm afraid. It might help to think of it less as links  of a chain that must be followed in sequence but rather as a fluid  state in which you move freely as required and as the situation  dictates. But, if you are finding yourself standing there hitting  someone 15 times and having not much effect.... RUN LIKE HELL. You are  not going to know what hit you when they get bored/annoyed and decide to  end it.


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 11, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.
> 
> I believe this is called chaining techniques, but this can also refer to consecutively throwing multiple techniques together in a string.
> 
> ...



If you're trying to go through someones defense then why not use a distractor first?  A closed fist is not all that much bigger than a spear hand strike...  So what is the advantage in slipping the defense when the cost is a couple of broken digits?


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 11, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I've found this technique, which *I learned from emulating another teacher of mine*, is superior to a normal punch, because it allows a person to get through a person's defenses, pretty much every time. *My teacher* had a reputation that no matter how you held your hands, or tried to defend, he could always connect, and I believe this is the technique why.



I just re-read the OP and am not sure if this has been covered already but, ASK YOUR TEACHER! If you're emulating him and he has built a reputation on it then surely he can tell you what it's called even if he doesn't think you're ready to know the "secret" behind it.


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## clfsean (Jun 11, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Also, can we get back to the subject of the OP so this doesn't delineate. If you would like to talk about my background, let's do it in private, and keep to the subject matter. Keeps it simple, and from going the way things have before.
> 
> Thx.



Ummm... no. You brought up the topic of southern CMA kicking as if you were some authority. So given your past history, I want to know what your experience is. You opened the door with the statement. 

You've had a couple of days now to figure out how to answer my question. I've given specifics. I'd like the answers now... unless there's something you'd prefer to say that will probably be a little closer to the truth.


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## MJS (Jun 12, 2012)

Just a quick note.  This thread was starting to drift into 2 topics.  There were a number of posts that were talking about the generalist and the specialist martial artist.  I've split those posts into a new thread, which can be found here.  Please feel free to continue to discussion on that topic, there.


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## Zenjael (Jun 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> See, Alex, this is why we say for you to not put yourself forth as an expert in anything here.... Tang Soo Do is basically the Korean rendering of "Karate". The rest of this is so full of fantasy and badly researched "history" that you're better off just forgetting it all, and starting again. In a word, no.



This I would agree. The MODERN form of TSD is Karate... essentially. Even their gi's are so similar it could be classified within that branch of art style. The original, where it obtained its name, was based on Chinese arts. You can argue the name is being misused... but it's semantics at that point, literally.



Tez3 said:


> Which will be the one you train/rehearse for and can do instinctively knowing that it is effective. I don't think young Zenjael has ever heard of KISS.



Repetition is the only way to improve. Without it, you're just contemplating.



Tez3 said:


> It must be so useful to be able to pick techniques out of so many different styles. However I'm reminded of that old story I've heard tell of the fox and the cat who sat under a tree discussing what would happen if the hunt came upon them, the fox was boasting of the all the things he could do if the hounds were after him, the cat said she only had one thing she could do, just as the fox was shaking his head at the her, the hounds were heard baying quite closely, the cat shot up the tree, the fox sat there debating which of his many, many techniques for evading the hounds he should use, he was still doing this when the hounds caught him. One technique done well versus many, guess which wins.



I don't think I've ever been jammed by choice. You train so that your response is instinctive, but a knee-jerk reaction to anything is liable to eventually be misused, it be countered, or in many ways be turned against you. I value training to get the instinctual response, but not the action itself. When you can react, instinctively, using the plethora of what you know, there is no reason to get that jamming. It has never happened to me, so I think the cautionary tale, at best, is just that.

If someone is getting jammed, it might be the case they don't actually know what the technique they are using is for, what it is best against, and in all the fashions. And because they do not know, because they think, they might get stuck. Be confidant... and what technique to employ, and you will be fine.

A standard elbow pivot from muai thai is usually enough to deflect most punches, whereas in close quarters, if I cannot beat their handwork with my own, I'll resort to chambering knee strikes from Chung Do Kwan. Every technique is part of the ultimate equation. You want it to be perfect, and harmonious, without wasted energy or effort.

I don't pick and choose, at least not in the sense implied by that particular wording. I use what works, for me, and do not. There is a place where perhaps I could use it, by why would I implement the wrist work from Wing Chun, when the ox-jaw works well as it is (given I occasionally suffer from carpal tunnel thanks to computer work? I'm just saying at some point 'picking and choosing' isn't out of a party bag, and does rest on strategy.

And honestly, since we're not even discussing the point of this thread, I'd say it should be closed before it delineates and we have more fodder for the horror section.


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## clfsean (Jun 19, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I don't pick and choose, at least not in the sense implied by that particular wording. I use what works, for me, and do not. There is a place where perhaps I could use it, by why would I implement the wrist work from Wing Chun, when the ox-jaw works well as it is (given I occasionally suffer from carpal tunnel thanks to computer work? I'm just saying at some point 'picking and choosing' isn't out of a party bag, and does rest on strategy.



Please... expound on this "wrist work from Wing Chun". I'm quite interested in hearing this. And you never have answered my previous query about your experience in Southern CMA kicking. If you bring it up, you will be asked. You keep bringing it up. I (and pretty others too) would like to hear your thoughts & experiences with CMA kicking & now also, Wing Chun wrist work.

Also... CTS is not an occasional thing. You have it or you don't. If you do, you know it & you need to set up a date to have it released. If you don't, then you don't. It doesn't come & go. You can cause it to flare up or not flare by use, but it doesn't come & go. It's there or not there.


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## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> This I would agree. The MODERN form of TSD is Karate... essentially. Even their gi's are so similar it could be classified within that branch of art style. The original, where it obtained its name, was based on Chinese arts. You can argue the name is being misused... but it's semantics at that point, literally.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Their Gis are the same so that makes it the same art? so if I bought a Judo gi and did karate that would make karate Judo? What if I did karate in a skirt, what would that make it?

Jammed? Is that an Americanism I'm not familar with? What does that mean? you are being jammed in a small space? you have a pot of jam thrown over you? 

Really, I don't know about the thread wandering off but you certainly are! I've no idea what you are talking about, fighting harmoniously? I'll settle for damaging my attacker with the least damage to me.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 19, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I don't think I've ever been jammed by choice. You train so that your response is instinctive, but a knee-jerk reaction to anything is liable to eventually be misused, it be countered, or in many ways be turned against you. I value training to get the instinctual response, but not the action itself. When you can react, instinctively, using the plethora of what you know, there is no reason to get that jamming. It has never happened to me, so I think the cautionary tale, at best, is just that.
> 
> If someone is getting jammed, it might be the case they don't actually know what the technique they are using is for, what it is best against, and in all the fashions. And because they do not know, because they think, they might get stuck. Be confidant... and what technique to employ, and you will be fine.



Jamming doesnt just happen. Its something a fighters opponent does deliberately. Its a skill, a method. And it can be used on anyone whos learnt any system. And when two people jam each other, well, get ready for some mean inside fighting. When Your opponent does things to circumvent Your picture perfect techniques, You can be left in a jam. Which is why not having a large arsenal, or relying on accuracy, can be preferable. Its also why I dislike Combinations as more than a small part of training.

Then of course theres the other definition of jamming. I know noone has mentioned it, but im mentioning it now. Even if your technique is perfect, and you dont get choice jammed, if Your opponent jams, as in, locks up or restrains or otherwise compresses you in such a way that you can barely use anything, you can become choice jammed crossing off all the things that just became completely useless and unusable in your arsenal.




*Im editing this to explain the first paragraph a bit better.* 
You think to Yourself, Chop to neck > 2-3 fast strikes to the body!
You go to throw the chop to the neck, but you get punched in the face the moment you begin to move. Now Your opponent is doing their thing, and Youre deciding what to do next. You wouldnt have to decide what to do next, if you only had, say, two options. Lets say, Straight and Hook Punches. Now, you only need to throw your arm, and whichever one it does will be correct. No thought necessary. I remember you like open handy stuff, so slapping in the general direction of the ears, in your case. See? Now you dont even need to make a choice. The choice is already made. You dont even need to react to the situation, you can react to almost any situation, the same way.


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## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2012)

Ok so what's 'jamming' if I haven't heard it in martial arts after 20 years it must be a 'new' word for something old lol!


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## Cyriacus (Jun 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Ok so what's 'jamming' if I haven't heard it in martial arts after 20 years it must be a 'new' word for something old lol!


When Zanjael said it, He was referring to getting stuck on deciding what to do. The second way it was used, by me, which is the most common way, is when you jam up to your opponent so that they can barely do anything. One example is charging into someone and clinching right up. Now, either you can let go and start hitting them, or you pretty much have to have a wrestling match.


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## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> When Zanjael said it, He was referring to getting stuck on deciding what to do. The second way it was used, by me, which is the most common way, is when you jam up to your opponent so that they can barely do anything. One example is charging into someone and clinching right up. Now, either you can let go and start hitting them, or you pretty much have to have a wrestling match.



Thank you, glad you know what he means. Just clinching is what I know it as or 'hanging on for dear life' perhaps? In MMA we still hit them without letting go lol.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Thank you, glad you know what he means. Just clinching is what I know it as or 'hanging on for dear life' perhaps? In MMA we still hit them without letting go lol.


Its more how you get to the clinch. An example could perhaps be, Your opponent throws a right hook. You cover your head in something like a boxing guard, and ram your body into them. Or, you shoot as if for a double leg takedown, but just grab them forcefully around the waist, then come up in a clinch. Its literally jamming. If im not mistaken, a bodylock is what its called, when you pull yourself right in. If youre in the dominant position with it, yeah, the other guy can hit back. But you can, at just about any time, put yourself into a great position, or get off a good throw. Another example could be a roundhouse kick. Move in towards it, and just focus on grabbing the other guy around the head. Its all jamming  Another way to jam is to strike a striking limb. Opponent throws a jab, jab their hand out of the air and move right on in. But thats getting vague, and stretching the definition.


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## Tez3 (Jun 19, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Its more how you get to the clinch. An example could perhaps be, Your opponent throws a right hook. You cover your head in something like a boxing guard, and ram your body into them. Or, you shoot as if for a double leg takedown, but just grab them forcefully around the waist, then come up in a clinch. Its literally jamming. If im not mistaken, a bodylock is what its called, when you pull yourself right in. If youre in the dominant position with it, yeah, the other guy can hit back. But you can, at just about any time, put yourself into a great position, or get off a good throw. Another example could be a roundhouse kick. Move in towards it, and just focus on grabbing the other guy around the head. Its all jamming  Another way to jam is to strike a striking limb. Opponent throws a jab, jab their hand out of the air and move right on in. But thats getting vague, and stretching the definition.



Being a lady I never throw myself at anyone lol, seriously though being small it doesn't work that way, I'm more likely to bounce off them unless I'm attacked by a midget.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Being a lady I never throw myself at anyone lol, seriously though being small it doesn't work that way, I'm more likely to bounce off them unless I'm attacked by a midget.


A five pound rock will bounce off your head, but it still hurts.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Being a lady I never throw myself at anyone lol, seriously though being small it doesn't work that way, I'm more likely to bounce off them unless I'm attacked by a midget.


I sometimes forget that im a tall person


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 20, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> When Zanjael said it, He was referring to getting stuck on deciding what to do. The second way it was used, by me, which is the most common way, is when you jam up to your opponent so that they can barely do anything. One example is charging into someone and clinching right up. Now, either you can let go and start hitting them, or you pretty much have to have a wrestling match.



Hmm, I use the term "jam" to refer to check as well. In your next post you mention throwing a hand up against a right hook, that to me is a "jamming" action

*EDIT BECAUSE I HIT REPLY TOO EARLY!!!*



> Your opponent throws a right hook. You cover your head in something like a boxing guard, and ram your body into them.



I've heard of this referred to as a "spike" within the Krav Maga school I trained at briefly. Literally your elbows form a point like that of a spike which you use to drive into your opponent to drive them back. 

With regards to the swatting the jab out of the way and moving in, would that still be "jamming" or moving more into the "countering" territory? I see it as the latter but that could just be my understanding of the terminology


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 20, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Being a lady I never throw myself at anyone



Not even me??? :ultracool


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## Chris Parker (Jun 20, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> This I would agree. The MODERN form of TSD is Karate... essentially. Even their gi's are so similar it could be classified within that branch of art style. The original, where it obtained its name, was based on Chinese arts. You can argue the name is being misused... but it's semantics at that point, literally.



Really? Might you be able to provide, oh, any evidence whatsoever for Tang Soo Do being a martial art before 1945, where it was directly taken from Shotokan karate? You remember what I said about the rest of your comments as being "full of fantasy, badly researched..."? 

Yeah. That.



Zenjael said:


> Repetition is the only way to improve. Without it, you're just contemplating.



Not exactly. After all, repeating poor form, bad distancing, bad angling, poor technique etc is just going to imprint such bad technique (and so on). And I'm not sure what you're meaning by "contemplating"... 



Zenjael said:


> I don't think I've ever been jammed by choice. You train so that your response is instinctive, but a knee-jerk reaction to anything is liable to eventually be misused, it be countered, or in many ways be turned against you. I value training to get the instinctual response, but not the action itself. When you can react, instinctively, using the plethora of what you know, there is no reason to get that jamming. It has never happened to me, so I think the cautionary tale, at best, is just that.
> 
> If someone is getting jammed, it might be the case they don't actually know what the technique they are using is for, what it is best against, and in all the fashions. And because they do not know, because they think, they might get stuck. Be confidant... and what technique to employ, and you will be fine.
> 
> ...



Honestly, all that tells me is that you've never really experienced adrenaline or real pressure, because there's a hell of a lot wrong in that as well.



Zenjael said:


> And honestly, since we're not even discussing the point of this thread, I'd say it should be closed before it delineates and we have more fodder for the horror section.



Yeah... not your call, though. But before it is closed, would you care to answer any question put forth? Such as where you get your "understanding" of Southern CMA kicking methods from? When asked you cited Korean and Japanese arts... not sure if your geography is out, but they're not Chinese.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 20, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> I've heard of this referred to as a "spike" within the Krav Maga school I trained at briefly. Literally your elbows form a point like that of a spike which you use to drive into your opponent to drive them back.



Yep! You can also have one elbow slightly higher than the other, so that only one makes contact. That way, you can easily move into grappling territory by grabbing behind the head.



> With regards to the swatting the jab out of the way and moving in, would that still be "jamming" or moving more into the "countering" territory? I see it as the latter but that could just be my understanding of the terminology



Well, id call it jamming to an extent. If you force the jab out of the way whilst moving in, id call that a jam. What you do after, is countering.

Edit: I swear my keyboard must have bugged out there. I edited a bunch of weird typos.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 20, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Yep! You can also have one elbow slightly higher than the other, so that only one makes contact. That way, you can easily move into grappling territory by grabbing behind the head.



Yeah that was one of the drills covered. Basic spike to either push back, down or back and down. Then spike while angling to be able to move into a grapple or a hold of some sort - usually followed by knees from myself but there were a few options presented depending on how you ended up. 



> Well, id call it jamming to an extent. Iif you force the jab out of the way whilst moving in, id call that a jam. What you do after, is countering.
> 
> Edit: I swear my keyboard must have bugged out there. I edited a bunch of weird typos.




Ahh rightio, that makes sense when you read it as intended and not as one term referring to the whole thing. Thanks


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## GaryR (Jun 20, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.
> 
> I believe this is called chaining techniques, but this can also refer to consecutively throwing multiple techniques together in a string.
> 
> ...



I agree that closing the hand before impact is a great way to punch.  Keep the fingers loose, don't lock them; you can strike with them - and tensed/locked they can be damaged easily.  Closing the fist throughout the whole of your movement is actually quite beginner / less effective.  With an open hand your options for intercept, blending, redirecting, & striking instruments are available on the fly--(palm, fingers, pisform bone (on palm heel etc.)  Closing you fist from the get-go forecloses on many better/alternative combative options.  

Its harder to train in than a regular punch, but better in the long run.  Also if you punch in a tight ellipse/circle - the movement can be continuous - no stop start - one-step, two-step.  

Best,

Gary


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 20, 2012)

GaryR said:


> Keep the fingers loose, don't lock them; you can strike with them - and tensed/locked they can be damaged easily.



Sure if you're going for a strike utilising the finger tips, even then I'd say there needs to be some tension at moment of impact. The technique in question from the OP was landing with a punch though so not sure how appropriate it is to not have a solid fist landing?



> Closing you fist from the get-go forecloses on many better/alternative combative options.



Amongst other (potentially more important) reasons if I understand my lessons correctly. 



> Also if you punch in a tight ellipse/circle - the movement can be continuous - no stop start - one-step, two-step.



Naturally retracting the arm after a punch is one thing but if you punch in tight circles like with a resistance band, how much of your body weight is actually being transferred through the strike? As far as I can picture it, it seems like a series of taps which may be fast sure but not particularly devastating.


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## GaryR (Jun 20, 2012)

*double post by accident*

How does one delete a post, I don't see the option??


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## GaryR (Jun 20, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Sure if you're going for a strike utilising the finger tips, even then I'd say there needs to be some tension at moment of impact. The technique in question from the OP was landing with a punch though so not sure how appropriate it is to not have a solid fist landing?



Yup, I mentioned both striking w/closed fist and finger strikes as separate animal.  I said nothing about not having a solid fist land, closing before impact does not mean the fist is "loose", of course it needs to be strong enough to do the job and not damage your wrist/hand. As for the finger strikes, they of course need to have enough tension in them to get the strike/job done - completely floppy or locked/tensed is not the way to go - there is a sweet spot of "form" in the fingers - more easily shown than described, we likely are doing the same thing here, most people I find know how to naturally adjust their finger strikes if they do any sort of bag work.  I also like to use a BOB (body opponent bag) to practice finger strikes, the BOB is hard enough to mimic a human target, and ensure you can apply power w/out hurting yourself.








Supra Vijai said:


> Naturally retracting the arm after a punch is one thing but if you punch in tight circles like with a resistance band, how much of your body weight is actually being transferred through the strike? As far as I can picture it, it seems like a series of taps which may be fast sure but not particularly devastating.



This method of punching is not common, its not surprising you can't fathom it. The body weight can be/is behind it.  The power is generated from the feet up - turning the waist, exploding-expanding, contracting, coiling/spiraling - its all body mechanics and physics.  Also behind the strike is "fajing" or explosive energy - its a concept from internal martial arts, again, not common to find people who can apply fajing and full body power mechanics to seamless elliptical punches.  

It's far from a series of taps, each strike can be stronger, faster, and smoother than a reverse punch, as well as better than wing chuns "chain punching" which is good, but still lacking power/mechanics by comparison. 

best,

G


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 20, 2012)

GaryR said:


> This method of punching is not common, its not surprising you can't fathom it. The body weight can be/is behind it.  The power is generated from the feet up - turning the waist, exploding-expanding, contracting, coiling/spiraling - its all body mechanics and physics.  Also behind the strike is "fajing" or explosive energy - its a concept from internal martial arts, again, not common to find people who can apply fajing and full body power mechanics to seamless elliptical punches.



Please tell me you didn't just talk to me like you were the only person who knew anything about kinetic linking and generating explosive power? Our white belts are taught kinetic linking as part of the absolute basics and it's a topic we constantly revisit and refine. 



> It's far from a series of taps, each strike can be stronger, faster, and smoother than a reverse punch, as well as better than wing chuns "chain punching" which is good, but still lacking power/mechanics by comparison.



Again, that's a big claim. The first thread we interacted on it seemed briefly like we had a similar point of view about certain things but honestly, almost every reply you've posted since has been in some way detrimental to another art whilst pushing the idea that you are the Supreme Master and can teach or improve any one else you come across regardless of their background, experience or chosen art. How are you meant to teach and truly recognize the flaws of others when you seem unable/unwilling to learn and recognize your own shortcomings? Just for the record, issuing a challenge or saying "let's train together so I can correct you" just illustrates what I'm talking about.


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## clfsean (Jun 20, 2012)

Actually Gary, a circle in most CMA punches is common IME. Most everything you mentioned is found in proper CMA foundational training. Tun To Fo Chum... punching with an ellipsis on the arm to deliver the strike with the energy pulled from the feet, etc... No big secret, just proper basics.


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## punisher73 (Jun 20, 2012)

I have taught a palm heel strike to the chest, near the throat and then extending it into a spearhand.  I have seen people practice "collapsing" the spear into a fist as it makes contact, but I've never been a fan of that.

There are also some methods in okinawan karate (Isshin-Ryu's Wansu first comes to mind) in which you lift the leg in the chamber position and then it dips slightly and then you throw the kick (some lineages emphasize that more than others or add a slight pause with no dip, and some that just throw the kick but the application is the same).  The move is designed to be a block with the leg and then immediately throw the kick.





Around the 35 second mark.


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## GaryR (Jun 20, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Please tell me you didn't just talk to me like you were the only person who knew anything about kinetic linking and generating explosive power? Our white belts are taught kinetic linking as part of the absolute basics and it's a topic we constantly revisit and refine.



Yup, I did. If you think you already know how to apply such principles/mechanics--fine, let the newbs  benefit from the posts.

 If you can't fathom how the punching technique I described could be anything but a "tap" your idea of linking, explosive power ect. is likely very lacking comparatively.  White belts in every style should be taught kinetic linking / mechanics in the begging (they often are in their styles "version of it", but as one gets more advanced the circles can become tighter, more explosive, and more fluid.  If I'm preaching to the choir--cool, but nothing indicates you have any idea how to comparatively efficiently and powerfully perform the principles/methods I am describing, its just not likely you can (of course with training you probably could) sorry if that comes across as rude, but I think you are likely *way *out of your depth here.  (I'll reserve a more definite opinion until/if I see video of you or meet you in person.  I was in Oz two summers ago-but was on the other coast.  I love Aussies - met the Governor of NSW, and was her guest for a parliament hearing-great folks from the top down.  )




Supra Vijai said:


> Again, that's a big claim. The first thread we interacted on it seemed briefly like we had a similar point of view about certain things but honestly, almost every reply you've posted since has been in some way detrimental to another art whilst pushing the idea that you are the Supreme Master and can teach or improve any one else you come across regardless of their background, experience or chosen art. How are you meant to teach and truly recognize the flaws of others when you seem unable/unwilling to learn and recognize your own shortcomings? Just for the record, issuing a challenge or saying "let's train together so I can correct you" just illustrates what I'm talking about.



I am aware that it is a big claim.  The "supreme master"?? Lol, do you see any titles in my signature or in my posts?? I am quite against titles of such.  I would however put my material against anyone's in the world-->with the exception of ground fighting, and weapons work--there are countless people better than I in those areas.  Like I said, I am willing to demonstrate and illustrate my points in person in a friendly manner and even video when able. 

I could care less about discussing things that are detrimental to other arts, I call it like I see it.  I don't mean to offend anyone-just having objective discussion - style distinctions to me are arbitrary to a point.

 I know many of my shortcomings, and am working them-- and I am not so arrogant as to believe that nobody can help me improve-or even kick my a@@-I can name a handful.  Text only refutes from the "peanut gallery" who has no experience with my material-or material of the like- is taken as seriously as it needs to be on a case-by-case basis.  I'm more of a "show me" kind of person - much of this stuff has to be felt, many subtle mechanics can't be seen well at a more advanced level - purely academic discussion is good -but it only goes so far--hence my offer to train with folks in person.  Plus, my offer to critique, teach, and discuss via video is quite generous. I simply want to share info/discuss- and let it benefit the MA community at large.  We are all brothers and sisters in the arts, and should help one another, and treat each other accordingly.  

Yes, a great majority of people/instructors regardless of background can benefit from the improvements I could provide.  This has already been my experience at large. Offering to train together to help someone is not a challenge - there is no need for bravado or fighting - friendly demonstration is most normally more than sufficient.  

Best,

Gary


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## Cyriacus (Jun 20, 2012)

GaryR said:


> I agree that closing the hand before impact is a great way to punch.  Keep the fingers loose, don't lock them; you can strike with them - and tensed/locked they can be damaged easily.  Closing the fist throughout the whole of your movement is actually quite beginner / less effective.  With an open hand your options for intercept, blending, redirecting, & striking instruments are available on the fly--(palm, fingers, pisform bone (on palm heel etc.)  Closing you fist from the get-go forecloses on many better/alternative combative options.
> 
> Its harder to train in than a regular punch, but better in the long run.  Also if you punch in a tight ellipse/circle - the movement can be continuous - no stop start - one-step, two-step.
> 
> ...



And hence comes the factor many forget.

Not all Systems will work that way. I find that systems that use shorter movements tend to also be into things like keeping the hands relaxed. Then You can find plenty of Boxers whos hands physically vibrate with tension. Or Professional Fighters who only hold open hands before attacking, then keep them shut throughout attacks.
If the hands are closed, the forearms are still available to you.
Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something, your block will barely be a slap.

I dunno where youre getting your ideas from, but your way aint the only way. And if its a scientifical thing, the many times ive been hit in the ribs should have broken at least one, given the force behind them. It hasnt happened yet. And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.

You also seem to be overlooking things like the fact that Wing Chun Chain Punching is a method of applying a particular economical punch, and push. It isnt their entire punching system. The Reverse Punch is no different with exception to how its executed than a rear hand Straight. Complication doesnt automatically make something more effective. Technically, a knee strike will feel stronger if you swing a straight leg up, the bend it. But if you take the time to strengthen your muscles, youll wonder how you were ever so silly.



> Yup, I did. If you think you already know how to apply such principles/mechanics--fine, let the newbs benefit from the posts.


Yeah. Those silly unenlightened noobs.



> If you can't fathom how the punching technique I described could be anything but a "tap" your idea of linking, explosive power ect. is likely very lacking comparatively. White belts in every style should be taught kinetic linking / mechanics in the begging (they often are in their styles "version of it", but as one gets more advanced the circles can become tighter, more explosive, and more fluid. If I'm preaching to the choir--cool, but nothing indicates you have any idea how to comparatively efficiently and powerfully perform the principles/methods I am describing, its just not likely you can (of course with training you probably could) sorry if that comes across as rude, but I think you are likely *way *out of your depth here. (I'll reserve a more definite opinion until/if I see video of you or meet you in person. I was in Oz two summers ago-but was on the other coast. I love Aussies - met the Governor of NSW, and was her guest for a parliament hearing-great folks from the top down. )


Again: Im sure what youve been taught is fine. But if you were preaching the one true martial way to get things as good as possible, it would be very commonly known of by now. And i fail to see how meeting the governer of NSW and attending a parliament hearing helps, when most Australians couldnt be bothered doing that. 



> I am aware that it is a big claim. The "supreme master"?? Lol, do you see any titles in my signature or in my posts?? I am quite against titles of such. I would however put my material against anyone's in the world-->with the exception of ground fighting, and weapons work--there are countless people better than I in those areas. Like I said, I am willing to demonstrate and illustrate my points in person in a friendly manner and even video when able.


You really do come across as thinking you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far, ive been putting that down to some poor wording. Im starting to reconsider this.



> I could care less about discussing things that are detrimental to other arts, I call it like I see it. I don't mean to offend anyone-just having objective discussion - style distinctions to me are arbitrary to a point.



Thats part of your problem, likely. Youre making it sound like Martial Arts is one big round egg. But the methods and approaches of one system, are not those of another. What you have learnt is one system. Not the figure of the apparently singular global Martial Art that all these noobs call by different names for some reason.



> I know many of my shortcomings, and am working them-- and I am not so arrogant as to believe that nobody can help me improve-or even kick my a@@-I can name a handful. Text only refutes from the "peanut gallery" who has no experience with my material-or material of the like- is taken as seriously as it needs to be on a case-by-case basis. I'm more of a "show me" kind of person - much of this stuff has to be felt, many subtle mechanics can't be seen well at a more advanced level - purely academic discussion is good -but it only goes so far--hence my offer to train with folks in person. Plus, my offer to critique, teach, and discuss via video is quite generous. I simply want to share info/discuss- and let it benefit the MA community at large. We are all brothers and sisters in the arts, and should help one another, and treat each other accordingly.



I mostly just keep thinking about boxing this kid who claimed that he could 'take anyone' with his Kung Fu, and that we were all just outdated troglodytes. It turns out he was just preaching waving his hands around in front of his face and sidestepping every time i moved trying to chop at my throat. It was rather ineffective.
You might not be coming across like you think you can take anyone, but you are coming across like you know better than everyone.

You might be more of a 'show me' type, but thats also you. Not a global standard. Your offer to critique and such by video also implies youre the amazing amazingless that we should all be privelidged for getting videos looked at by. The information youre sharing is mostly 'My way is better than all these things', which really isnt too beneficial.



> Yes, a great majority of people/instructors regardless of background can benefit from the improvements I could provide. This has already been my experience at large. Offering to train together to help someone is not a challenge - there is no need for bravado or fighting - friendly demonstration is most normally more than sufficient.



And now youre pulling a Zanjael, and having good reasoning, backed by unassuring information. You say 'improvements', but its still mostly preaching your method as being the greatest, and many others as being foolish by comparison.



> sorry if that comes across as rude



Now, much in the same way, its hard to have conversations like this without there being a tone of hostility, but i assure you, i possess none here. I shall trust that you dont either


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 21, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> And hence comes the factor many forget.
> 
> Not all Systems will work that way. I find that systems that use shorter movements tend to also be into things like keeping the hands relaxed. Then You can find plenty of Boxers whos hands physically vibrate with tension. Or Professional Fighters who only hold open hands before attacking, then keep them shut throughout attacks.
> If the hands are closed, the forearms are still available to you.
> ...



What he said. 

I decided to step away from the forum last night as I was feeling a little snippy and didn't want to post something I'd later regret. Finally got a chance to come back online and Cyriacus has worded a reply better than I could have!


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 21, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.



This is the only part I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't say that, Mike Tyson broke his hand punching someone in the face during a street fight. A little closer to home a friend of mine busted up his hand/wrist quite badly throwing a punch but being just a fraction off with the angling and that was against a bag, not someone trying to actively hit him. So yeah, you can quite realistically break your hand throwing a punch if the wrong target is attacked


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## GaryR (Jun 21, 2012)

Hello,

First, Supra Vijai, thank you for refraining from being snippy, I'll address Cyriacus points, and attempt to do the same, apologies in advance for any poor wording that makes me potentially sound like and A@@.  




Cyriacus said:


> Not all Systems will work that way. I find that systems that use shorter movements tend to also be into things like keeping the hands relaxed. Then You can find plenty of Boxers whos hands physically vibrate with tension. Or Professional Fighters who only hold open hands before attacking, then keep them shut throughout attacks.



No forgotten facts--Of course not all systems work that way, I never said that.  Short or long movements can be relaxed, and they are effectively executed as such in IMA + they are done correctly and some other styles/sytems. Regardless of being open or shut at what stage, it doesn't have to make a huge difference in fighting. I's just the way I and many others do it is more effective/efficient. Plus as you said--there are always forearms, and sometimes they are easier to use than the hands during interception attack etc. 



Cyriacus said:


> If the hands are closed, the forearms are still available to you.
> 
> Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something, your block will barely be a slap.



Of course the forearms are, I have numerous tactile sensitivity drills that teach that and more. 



Cyriacus said:


> Additionally, being able to stop a full speed punch and switch to a  block is silly. Chances are that if you redirect to block something,  your block will barely be a slap.



I don't know how this relates to anything I said? I don't know exactly what you mean by "stop", you should blend/re-direct etc. Additionally it should be one-second move-(intercept etc / counter & take their center). 



Cyriacus said:


> I dunno where youre getting your ideas from, but your way aint the only way. And if its a scientifical thing, the many times ive been hit in the ribs should have broken at least one, given the force behind them. It hasnt happened yet. And ive never known anyone whos broken their hand throwing a punch.



I'm getting my ideas from over a decade of teaching and a lot of testing and training/teaching  numerous people from various arts. Of course my way "ain't" [sic] the only way.  I fail to understand what your ribs have anything to do with what I've said.  Perhaps you think your physiology is somehow metaphysically stronger than others? Ridiculous. One can be trained to take hits better, damage minimization should be taught in all systems, it can be invaluable, anybody can get hit...



Cyriacus said:


> You also seem to be overlooking things like the fact that Wing Chun Chain Punching is a method of applying a particular economical punch, and push. It isnt their entire punching system. The Reverse Punch is no different with exception to how its executed than a rear hand Straight. Complication doesnt automatically make something more effective. Technically, a knee strike will feel stronger if you swing a straight leg up, the bend it. But if you take the time to strengthen your muscles, youll wonder how you were ever so silly.



I never said chain punching is their entire punching system, please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said complication makes something necessarily more effective - KISS is key - the mechanics/principles I have glossed over summarily may seem difficult at first, but the training makes it second nature and gradates the students up in skill so functionality is not sacrificed for things over their head and skill level grasp.





Cyriacus said:


> Again: Im sure what youve been taught is fine. But if you were preaching the one true martial way to get things as good as possible, it would be very commonly known of by now. And i fail to see how meeting the governer of NSW and attending a parliament hearing helps, when most Australians couldnt be bothered doing that.



I disagree that it would be / IS commonly known.  Tai Chi was brought to the US for example and popularized as a heath dance - loosing much of the martial interest / skills.  Many dojo's became Mcdojo's of all styles.  The "good stuff" *is *hard to find in most styles (especially in the realistic combative context).  If you dont' think so, you are just VERY lucky, or have less exposure.  Not all styles are created equal.  At their pinnacle there are arts that are comparatively more effective than others.  True-- most Aussies wouldn't bother-I just enjoyed the country and wanted to learn...  




Cyriacus said:


> You really do come across as thinking you are the greatest thing since sliced bread. So far, ive been putting that down to some poor wording. Im starting to reconsider this.



Well, I'm not going to apologize for my talent, training, skill and experience level.  As I said before, I WOULD put my material against anyone's in the world (with the exceptions of ground-fighting and weapons work).  Most of communication is non-verbal, much context is lost through this venue, I get along with 99% of people in person, so perhaps you can reconsider giving me the benefit of the doubt?



Cyriacus said:


> Thats part of your problem, likely. Youre making it sound like Martial Arts is one big round egg. But the methods and approaches of one system, are not those of another. What you have learnt is one system. Not the figure of the apparently singular global Martial Art that all these noobs call by different names for some reason.



Well, I'm sorry if that is what you inferred (it's all one round egg) -- I am fully aware it's not.  There are seemingly endless variations on each of the numerous arts.  I have NOT just learned one system, I have learned many, and have had extensive exposure to many more styles via teaching / training / traveling. 





Cyriacus said:


> I mostly just keep thinking about boxing this kid who claimed that he could 'take anyone' with his Kung Fu, and that we were all just outdated troglodytes. It turns out he was just preaching waving his hands around in front of his face and sidestepping every time i moved trying to chop at my throat. It was rather ineffective.



I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me.  Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan.  I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.  



Cyriacus said:


> You might not be coming across like you think you can take anyone, but you are coming across like you know better than everyone.



In many cases, in a combative context-- I do know better than most everyone else.  Again, I won't apologize for this, and I am willing to be proven wrong, I won't hold my breath, but if so the beer is on me :bangahead:.



Cyriacus said:


> You might be more of a 'show me' type, but thats also you. Not a global standard. Your offer to critique and such by video also implies youre the amazing amazingless that we should all be privelidged for getting videos looked at by. The information youre sharing is mostly 'My way is better than all these things', which really isnt too beneficial.



Well "show me" should be a global standard, otherwise it's just academic talk / mouth-boxing. 

You would be privileged to have me thoroughly review a video for you to help you out, my time is valuable, and my instruction/methods are world-class regardless of your current perspective. Like I said, I'm here to share, If you listened / learned / trained and tested correctly you would see results.




Cyriacus said:


> And now youre pulling a Zanjael, and having good reasoning, backed by unassuring information. You say 'improvements', but its still mostly preaching your method as being the greatest, and many others as being foolish by comparison.



Well, I'm sorry but I don't have time to back it with volumes of  "[]assuring information" --you also failed to specify WHAT information?  I am one of the few that is NON-ANNONYMOUS here, and will put my money where my mouth is so to speak. Unlike yourself, I will not equivocate by saying "show me" is not the global standard.  Again, I won't apologize-- but my methods are among the greatest.  But, I didn't get there on my own, I had a lot of help, luck, and work behind it among other things.  Moreover, YES, many others are foolish by comparison.  I can point out where, why, how, and demonstrate how to improve--if you think that is preaching, fine-I consider it sharing and discussing.



Cyriacus said:


> Now, much in the same way, its hard to have conversations like this without there being a tone of hostility, but i assure you, i possess none here. I shall trust that you don't either



I agree it can be hard to not come across as hostile in these types of conversations- (maybe one of the few agreements we may have ) - as I mentioned - much of communication is non-verbal.  No hostility here brother, I have a guest room and a beer/tea waiting for any friendly MA brothers/sisters in town, as I said, I get along with most people in person. 

Best regards,

Gary


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## Cyriacus (Jun 21, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> This is the only part I wanted to comment on. I wouldn't say that, Mike Tyson broke his hand punching someone in the face during a street fight. A little closer to home a friend of mine busted up his hand/wrist quite badly throwing a punch but being just a fraction off with the angling and that was against a bag, not someone trying to actively hit him. So yeah, you can quite realistically break your hand throwing a punch if the wrong target is attacked



I mean, actually personally. Ive seen a fair few little scraps, ive been to two boxing gyms, and ive seen someone punch a brick wall in frustration. I know its possible, but ive just never seen it.



GaryR said:


> No forgotten facts--Of course not all systems work that way, I never said that. Short or long movements can be relaxed, and they are effectively executed as such in IMA + they are done correctly and some other styles/sytems. Regardless of being open or shut at what stage, it doesn't have to make a huge difference in fighting. I's just the way I and many others do it is more effective/efficient. Plus as you said--there are always forearms, and sometimes they are easier to use than the hands during interception attack etc.


I know you didnt say that. Its what you implied.
Assuming youre not filling in blanks to suit a purpose (That isnt an implication, either. Im just throwing that in just in case its needed later), this makes a fair bit more sense than your previous statement at least.



> Of course the forearms are, I have numerous tactile sensitivity drills that teach that and more.



And just like Ras, Youve got something for everything 



> I don't know how this relates to anything I said? I don't know exactly what you mean by "stop", you should blend/re-direct etc. Additionally it should be one-second move-(intercept etc / counter & take their center).


Lets put that down to poor wording on your part, because it sounded like you were saying that you should close your hands as you punch, so that you could stop the punch and change to a parry or block.



> I'm getting my ideas from over a decade of teaching and a lot of testing and training/teaching numerous people from various arts. Of course my way "ain't" [sic] the only way. I fail to understand what your ribs have anything to do with what I've said. Perhaps you think your physiology is somehow metaphysically stronger than others? Ridiculous. One can be trained to take hits better, damage minimization should be taught in all systems, it can be invaluable, anybody can get hit...


And yet you often very softly downspeak other systems whilst implying your way is better.
I do not think my physiology is metaphysically stronger than others. Im referring to the fact that scientifically, they should be broken. Based on a the force on contact. This was incase your ideas were one of those science bound things, where you cant punch in a street fight and your body is a delicate flower. It may be more common than you think.



> I never said chain punching is their entire punching system, please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said complication makes something necessarily more effective - KISS is key - the mechanics/principles I have glossed over summarily may seem difficult at first, but the training makes it second nature and gradates the students up in skill so functionality is not sacrificed for things over their head and skill level grasp.


I didnt put words in your mouth - Its the implication you made. If that implication was unintended, just say so. Youre just as guilty of that as i am, given that you literally just asked me if i think my body is metaphysically stronger than everyone elses.
You didnt say complication makes things more effective - I said that, as a point unto itself. Keeping your hands open during a punch, and closing it on the end, even if it added power, still puts your fingers at an increased risk however you look at it. It is simpler, to hold a closed fist.
If training can make anything second nature, than everything is simple by default.



> I disagree that it would be / IS commonly known. Tai Chi was brought to the US for example and popularized as a heath dance - loosing much of the martial interest / skills. Many dojo's became Mcdojo's of all styles. The "good stuff" *is *hard to find in most styles (especially in the realistic combative context). If you dont' think so, you are just VERY lucky, or have less exposure. Not all styles are created equal. At their pinnacle there are arts that are comparatively more effective than others. True-- most Aussies wouldn't bother-I just enjoyed the country and wanted to learn...


Thats because in most places where they do Tai Chi, it IS a Health Dance with very little martial interest or skill 
Ive been to plenty of places in this country - We really dont have it too terribly bad, as compared to what i hear of McDojos in various other places.
Did you learn much from listening to the politicians complain 



> Well, I'm not going to apologize for my talent, training, skill and experience level. As I said before, I WOULD put my material against anyone's in the world (with the exceptions of ground-fighting and weapons work). Most of communication is non-verbal, much context is lost through this venue, I get along with 99% of people in person, so perhaps you can reconsider giving me the benefit of the doubt?



Im still giving you the benefit of the doubt - I only really take issue to you claiming to be able to 'improve' anyone, whilst softly downspeaking some other systems. I can provide quotes, if needed.



> Well, I'm sorry if that is what you inferred (it's all one round egg) -- I am fully aware it's not. There are seemingly endless variations on each of the numerous arts. I have NOT just learned one system, I have learned many, and have had extensive exposure to many more styles via teaching / training / traveling.


Its pretty much what you said - Ill take your word for it that it wasnt intended.



> I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.


The implication is that some people think too much and move too little 
Im sure You are effective - Whether thats the result of Your style or You remains to be seen here.



> In many cases, in a combative context-- I do know better than most everyone else. Again, I won't apologize for this, and I am willing to be proven wrong, I won't hold my breath, but if so the beer is on me :bangahead:.


Ill say this: Alot of people are combatively ignorant. But thats symptomatic of alot of people not 'wanting' that side of Martial Arts these days, thereby making the Combatively oriented a minority. Some of which use this forum.



> Well "show me" should be a global standard, otherwise it's just academic talk / mouth-boxing.


The problem with Mouth Boxing, only arises when someone is trying to 'win'.



> If you listened / learned / trained and tested correctly you would see results.


The same can be said of any system.



> Well, I'm sorry but I don't have time to back it with volumes of "[]assuring information" --you also failed to specify WHAT information? I am one of the few that is NON-ANNONYMOUS here, and will put my money where my mouth is so to speak. Unlike yourself, I will not equivocate by saying "show me" is not the global standard. Again, I won't apologize-- but my methods are among the greatest. But, I didn't get there on my own, I had a lot of help, luck, and work behind it among other things. Moreover, YES, many others are foolish by comparison. I can point out where, why, how, and demonstrate how to improve--if you think that is preaching, fine-I consider it sharing and discussing.


In this case, having open hands until right before a punch. Im not saying its bad, at all. Im objecting to it being implied as being better than other methods.
Cyriacus is a nickname i got in highschool. Dont ask.
And this is not Facebook - Of course many of us are anonymous 

If anything is foolish by comparison, its the result of that outlet being one teaching degraded content. The preaching is the praise of ones own system.



> I agree it can be hard to not come across as hostile in these types of conversations- (maybe one of the few agreements we may have ) - as I mentioned - much of communication is non-verbal. No hostility here brother, I have a guest room and a beer/tea waiting for any friendly MA brothers/sisters in town, as I said, I get along with most people in person.


In closing, i dont think theres anything wrong with what youre doing, teaching, or saying. Only the view that its the better way. I experimentally tried the whole hand open>close near contact thing yesterday. It works just fine - But i would have to specifically train it to have a decent amount of force in it. Ive trained a different method of punching, and as a result, have more force in that. If id learnt it the other way from three years ago, id be using the open hand closing near contact, and itd probably be equally forceful to the slightly modified reverse punch I tend to use.

...Is the tea green, and the beer still cold?


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## Zenjael (Jun 21, 2012)

> I  just re-read the OP and am not sure if this has been covered already   but, ASK YOUR TEACHER! If you're emulating him and he has built a   reputation on it then surely he can tell you what it's called even if he   doesn't think you're ready to know the "secret" behind it.


  To Supra Vijai; I  have contacted him, electronically so I could ask in  more detail. His  son just graduated Monday, and they are tied up in  that. He said nothing about 'no, i won't teach it' he said at some other  point when he's not busy. Considering he's retired from teaching  martial arts, give it some credit that he opted to respond at all, to a  question of that nature. I have no idea  why a teacher would use a  technique on you that you are not ready  yourself to learn. That would  seem kinda vain, and he is anything but  that. When I practice with  white belts, I limit myself to their level,  using their techniques. I'm  not trying to WoW them, or beat them, im  trying to train them, and  hopefully, be better than me someday. When I  spar with blue belts, I  limit myself to the curriculum they know.

Some  styles don't have established curriculum, but even then, if this  REALLY  is a 'martial art secret' perhaps I should look at it as a  compliment  that he used it on me. That I was worth it. 
And... considering he  was very well aware of my ability to learn, and  utilize techniques  usually on first sight, there's a bit more to it  than saying he's hiding  something from me.

When he closed, I was a 1st dan in his  system, even if higher ranked in  others. I did not, and have not,  learned all there is to from Chung Do  Kwan, and Master Khan.

Cyrianus; the terminology you are using is what I would say is  overwhelming the opponent, though honestly neither word is truly  appropriate, since it can mislead and obfuscate between different  tactics. 

I know what you speak of in relation to the second kind of jamming. It  happens a lot in Jiujitsu. the problem I have with that, and the only  problem, is that the jams wouldn't realistically occur because you NEVER  run out of options. Your opponent, presuming it's a single one, does  not have enough limbs to restrain every part of your body. I can give  example after example, but let's put it like this- in practice, things  will not escalate past a point, normally. On the street, those kinds of  jams dont really happen. Mainly because you should at that point be  ripping their arteries from whichever spot is closest, and trying to  maim them with and part of your body you can.

If they hold you like that, they have made themself vulnerable  preoccupying themself with you. Make them pay for it. Er, outside of  practice, on the street that is. Please take care of your partners, or  they won't be one for long.




> I've heard of this referred to as a "spike" within the Krav Maga  school I  trained at briefly. Literally your elbows form a point like  that of a  spike which you use to drive into your opponent to drive them  back.



With regards to the swatting the jab out of the way and moving in, would   that still be "jamming" or moving more into the "countering"  territory?  I see it as the latter but that could just be my  understanding of the  terminology                      


 You can also use the spike to control their arm, given how close you're  willing to get. It's the nicer way of defending with it. Obviously the  normative is to ram the hand with the spike, especially at the fingers.  Let the energy of their swing help self-destruct that pretty ball of  joints they have.



> Not exactly. After all, repeating poor form, bad distancing, bad   angling, poor technique etc is just going to imprint such bad technique   (and so on). And I'm not sure what you're meaning by "contemplating"...


 

 To Chris Parker; I think we all know that when somebody says repetition  they keep this in mind, 'Practice doesn't make perfect; perfect practice  makes perfect.'

Sarcasm aside that you really think another human being has never  experienced adrenaline... in a contact sport... you should open your  mind to more than regionalistic politics. Korea was not always KOREA.  Heck, it's not even Korea now. Japan, too, may very well have been  colonized by the Chinese. 



> Which certainly implies importation of ideas could happen. Buddhism  certainly did, and I wonder what they are oft popularized as practicing  as well?
> 
> 
> To GaryR; Too many posts to quote at once, but I assure you I read them all twice to make sure I could retain what you wrote.
> ...


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## K-man (Jun 22, 2012)

I ignored this post until now and didn't realise the fun I've been missing out on. *OMG! *Two of the greatest martial artists on the planet preening each other with their claims, on the same thread. Priceless!  This has the potential to get even better.  Popcorn anyone?   opcorn:    opcorn:

Just in case people missed the fun I'll post a few quotable quotes.



> But we are speaking about the kind of nuance where *in a single motion a person can get struck 3-4 times,* all different techniques, as jks pointed out.* If in the process of executing a front kick, you can knee them with degree of skill, I'd say why not differentiate the techniques?*
> 
> And to be honest, you bring up a good point. The chambering-kicks should be considered different than non-chamber kicks, though can oft be combined. If there's an entire methodology toward kicking which introduces an added step, which creates a marked differentiation in power... I'd say it warrants its own classification with kicking. Likewise, it's component parts, if combat oriented, could arguably be considered unique techniques in their own right.
> 
> Absolutely brilliant!  I just wish I'd said it!





> I don't pick and choose, at least not in the sense implied by that particular wording. I use what works, for me, and do not. There is a place where perhaps I could use it, by why would I implement the wrist work from Wing Chun, when the ox-jaw works well as it is (given *I occasionally suffer from carpal tunnel thanks to computer work*? I'm just saying at some point 'picking and choosing' isn't out of a party bag, and does rest on strategy.
> 
> I can think of a more likely cause.





> This method of punching is not common, its not surprising you can't fathom it.
> 
> .....
> 
> ...



It doesn't get much better than this.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Cyrianus; the terminology you are using is what I would say is  overwhelming the opponent, though honestly neither word is truly  appropriate, since it can mislead and obfuscate between different  tactics.


Overwhelmed by way of Jamming.



> I know what you speak of in relation to the second kind of jamming. It  happens a lot in Jiujitsu. the problem I have with that, and the only  problem, is that the jams wouldn't realistically occur because you NEVER  run out of options. Your opponent, presuming it's a single one, does  not have enough limbs to restrain every part of your body. I can give  example after example, but let's put it like this- in practice, things  will not escalate past a point, normally. On the street, those kinds of  jams dont really happen. Mainly because you should at that point be  ripping their arteries from whichever spot is closest, and trying to  maim them with and part of your body you can.


It also happens very frequently in Boxing, in My experience, when two people stop patiently outside-fighting each other, and inevitably start brawling a bit.
And Youre kinda presuming You can simply 'maim your opponent'. Thats well and good, but You need to be in a position from which to do it first. Given that theyre trying to maim You, and everything.



> If they hold you like that, they have made themself vulnerable  preoccupying themself with you. Make them pay for it. Er, outside of  practice, on the street that is. Please take care of your partners, or  they won't be one for long.


Youre the one who holds them - Specifically, holding them in place, for whatever you intend to do.



> With regards to the swatting the jab out of the way and moving in, would   that still be "jamming" or moving more into the "countering"  territory?  I see it as the latter but that could just be my  understanding of the  terminology


It can be any punch, too. It argue that its easier with barrage type attacks, because you can usually just grab both ways and get one or two wrists with it. Its Jamming. Countering is what comes after.



> You can also use the spike to control their arm, given how close you're  willing to get. It's the nicer way of defending with it. Obviously the  normative is to ram the hand with the spike, especially at the fingers.  Let the energy of their swing help self-destruct that pretty ball of  joints they have.


Id prefer to ram the torso area with the spike, personally. As much as elbowing hands can work, too much accuracy is needed.
Unless You, say, grab their wrist first.


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## clfsean (Jun 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Here's my opinion on CMA kicking, since I feel there is no answer I can  give which won't get a response which is a reflex slap down. They kick  well.
> 
> Please try to tell me I'm wrong on that... just saying. Why would I  engage in a conversation, on an irrelevant aside topic, when the only  response will be rude disagreement. Are we martial artists, or are we  above that kind of trite?



No... you can give a great, well thought & honest answer & be lauded & applauded. Then rational, well mannered & behaved conversation can ensue, which I think we all like.

However when you make statements as you have done (Wing Chun wrist thing / Southern CMA kicking) just in this thread & given your background that you established already, of course the first thing to happen is a Red Flag! It'd be like me talking about battle experiences in Afganistan but when asked basic things like MOS or such, my response was "I don't wanna talk about" but then I keep talking about it using my experience with Call of Duty 3 as a background... what do you think the response to me would be on anything after that even slightly alluding to it?


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## Zenjael (Jun 22, 2012)

To Clfsean; because this isn't the topic of the thread, and I'm not actively trying to de-rail it, I am going to ignore questions like that. Make sense?

To Cyriacus I feel there should be a standard in MA concerning diction used. I try to be as specific as possible, since I often hear people calling the very same techniques (even if from different styles) different names, which is very confusing. For example; I've heard a snap kick called a front kick, while a front kick (if you want to call it that simplistically) uses the ball of the foot, and the snap kick the instep. I would call a front kick out like this, 'front leg front kick' (normally left foot is forward in such drills, or foot placement is already been established.

Likewise, reverse (such as in kicking), inverting a technique should not be given to unique techniques. There should be no inverted knife-hand, but rather a knifehand which was executed with an invert. That is my philosophy.

To K-man; I'm 22  if carpal tunnel is my most heinous hurtie, I think I'm fine thus far.


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## clfsean (Jun 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> To Clfsean; because this isn't the topic of the thread, and I'm not actively trying to de-rail it, I am going to ignore questions like that. Make sense?



No, since you brought it into this topic in the first place. Please tell us about your experience with Wing Chun so you can better describe the "Wing Chun wrist thing" you brought up. You... no one else brought it up.


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## K-man (Jun 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> To K-man; I'm 22  if carpal tunnel is my most heinous hurtie, I think I'm fine thus far.


As I said, "I can think of a more likely cause". Computers and MA training are not what I had in mind.      :asian:


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## Cyriacus (Jun 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> To Cyriacus I feel there should be a standard in MA concerning diction used. I try to be as specific as possible, since I often hear people calling the very same techniques (even if from different styles) different names, which is very confusing. For example; I've heard a snap kick called a front kick, while a front kick (if you want to call it that simplistically) uses the ball of the foot, and the snap kick the instep. I would call a front kick out like this, 'front leg front kick' (normally left foot is forward in such drills, or foot placement is already been established.
> 
> Likewise, reverse (such as in kicking), inverting a technique should not be given to unique techniques. There should be no inverted knife-hand, but rather a knifehand which was executed with an invert. That is my philosophy.
> .



Id say that depends on the System, a bit. To Me, a Snap Kick is a Kick which snaps back. A Thrust Kick is a Kick which thrusts forward and down. And so forth. But the kick itself could be a front kick, side kick, stomp kick, and so on.



clfsean said:


> No... you can give a great, well thought & honest answer & be lauded & applauded. Then rational, well mannered & behaved conversation can ensue, which I think we all like.
> 
> However when you make statements as you have done (Wing Chun wrist thing / Southern CMA kicking) just in this thread & given your background that you established already, of course the first thing to happen is a Red Flag! It'd be like me talking about battle experiences in Afganistan but when asked basic things like MOS or such, my response was "I don't wanna talk about" but then I keep talking about it using my experience with Call of Duty 3 as a background... what do you think the response to me would be on anything after that even slightly alluding to it?



Hey, we all know that in the army, Youre trained to do burpees to avoid being shot.


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## jks9199 (Jun 22, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> To Clfsean; because this isn't the topic of the thread, and I'm not actively trying to de-rail it, I am going to ignore questions like that. Make sense?
> 
> To Cyriacus* I feel there should be a standard in MA concerning diction used. I try to be as specific as possible*, since I often hear people calling the very same techniques (even if from different styles) different names, which is very confusing. For example; I've heard a snap kick called a front kick, while a front kick (if you want to call it that simplistically) uses the ball of the foot, and the snap kick the instep. I would call a front kick out like this, 'front leg front kick' (normally left foot is forward in such drills, or foot placement is already been established.
> 
> ...



But you persistently, even insistently, misuse words... (and have tried to justify this by claiming it's because you're in college, writing academic papers, even when corrected by folks with significant portions of the alphabet appended to their names... and who have had papers published in scholarly journals.)

A front kick (or many other kicks) may be executed in a few ways.  One is a snapping motion; another is a thrusting motion.  The technique may be similar, and the striking surfaces identical.  I can front thrust with the ball of my foot or the heel (or even the instep), or I can use the same striking surfaces for a snap kick.   Granted, the heel works better for a thrust and the ball for a snap kick, but it's not a limitation.

I can't even make sense out of half of your third paragraph, about reverse and inverted.  Perhaps a visit to dictionary.com is in order?


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> But you persistently, even insistently, misuse words... (and have tried to justify this by claiming it's because you're in college, writing academic papers, even when corrected by folks with significant portions of the alphabet appended to their names... and who have had papers published in scholarly journals.)
> 
> A front kick (or many other kicks) may be executed in a few ways. One is a snapping motion; another is a thrusting motion. The technique may be similar, and the striking surfaces identical. I can front thrust with the ball of my foot or the heel (or even the instep), or I can use the same striking surfaces for a snap kick. Granted, the heel works better for a thrust and the ball for a snap kick, but it's not a limitation.
> 
> I can't even make sense out of half of your third paragraph, about reverse and inverted. Perhaps a visit to dictionary.com is in order?




Quoted for truth! and much more restrained and polite than I would have written it!  One can only take so much BS I'm afraid.


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## GaryR (Jun 23, 2012)

Originally Posted by *GaryR* 


No forgotten facts--Of course not all systems work that way, I never said that. Short or long movements can be relaxed, and they are effectively executed as such in IMA + they are done correctly and some other styles/systems. Regardless of being open or shut at what stage, it doesn't have to make a huge difference in fighting. I's just the way I and many others do it is more effective/efficient. Plus as you said--there are always forearms, and sometimes they are easier to use than the hands during interception attack etc. 
I know you didnt say that. Its what you implied.



Cyriacus said:


> Assuming youre not filling in blanks to suit a purpose (That isnt an implication, either. Im just throwing that in just in case its needed later), this makes a fair bit more sense than your previous statement at least.



No, Im not filling blanks to suit a purpose; I am just busy and rushed. 
Of course the forearms are, I have numerous tactile sensitivity drills that teach that and more.



Cyriacus said:


> And just like Ras, Youve got something for everything



I have no idea who Ras is, but the fact remains that my quote rings true, Ill link you to video later with exactly that type of method / principal being applied. 

I don't know how this relates to anything I said? I don't know exactly what you mean by "stop", you should blend/re-direct etc. Additionally it should be one-second move-(intercept etc. / counter & take their center). 



Cyriacus said:


> Lets put that down to poor wording on your part, because it sounded like you were saying that you should close your hands as you punch, so that you could stop the punch and change to a parry or block.



Poor wording for sure, apologies. 

I'm getting my ideas from over a decade of teaching and a lot of testing and training/teaching numerous people from various arts. Of course my way "ain't" [sic] the only way. I fail to understand what your ribs have anything to do with what I've said. Perhaps you think your physiology is somehow metaphysically stronger than others? Ridiculous. One can be trained to take hits better, damage minimization should be taught in all systems, it can be invaluable, anybody can get hit... 



Cyriacus said:


> And yet you often very softly downspeak other systems whilst implying your way is better.



I softly down-speak because I am trying to be respectful to others. I could actually be MUCH harsher on other systems.  I have had to demonstrate such harsh critiques and points of failure in the past in person w/other instructors, fortunately nobody has ever gotten hurt (much). 



Cyriacus said:


> I do not think my physiology is metaphysically stronger than others. Im referring to the fact that scientifically, they should be broken. Based on a the force on contact.



If scientifically they shouldnt be broken if they are not.  Unless as I said you believe in Qi protection or some other ridiculous non-proven force.  Nonetheless, Im glad you ribs werent broken. This was incase your ideas were one of those science bound things, where you cant punch in a street fight and your body is a delicate flower. It may be more common than you think.

Science boundI dont believe in Qi or the supernatural if thats what you mean.  There is no evidence it exists, or makes any difference in fighting or combat.  We have motion sensors and computer that can measure force, momentum, body mechanics, etc, down to the molectular level-no qi need apply.  Of course you can punch in a street fight.  Your body is not that delicate, and depending on age/size/strength etc. relatively we are all just about the same, a target is a target.  I dont know where you got the impression I thought the above, again putting my words in my mouth and drawing attenuated and non-cogent implications from my posts.  

I never said chain punching is their entire punching system, please stop putting words in my mouth. I also never said complication makes something necessarily more effective - KISS is key - the mechanics/principles I have glossed over summarily may seem difficult at first, but the training makes it second nature and gradates the students up in skill so functionality is not sacrificed for things over their head and skill level grasp. 



Cyriacus said:


> I didnt put words in your mouth - Its the implication you made. If that implication was unintended, just say so. Youre just as guilty of that as i am, given that you literally just asked me if i think my body is metaphysically stronger than everyone elses.



The implication was unintended, you are drawing inferences and setting up a straw-man argument, please have me clarify before coming to conclusions, its a waste of time to correct you constantly for not directly addressing my quotes, and paraphrasing with what your incorrectly inferred. 

You didnt say complication makes things more effective - I said that, as a point unto itself. Keeping your hands open during a punch, and closing it on the end, even if it added power, still puts your fingers at an increased risk however you look at it. It is simpler, to hold a closed fist.
If training can make anything second nature, than everything is simple by default.
I agree, it can put your fingers at more risks.  But if you train correctly, and have enough skill the benefits of an open hand far outweigh the risks. Before impact the hand can become a palm strike, a knife edge strike, a finger strike, or a punch at numerous angles with torque, etc.  This is a significant advantage, I guarantee you.  If you think differently you are simply out of your depth, and your system/style is severely lacking. ---Sorry. 

I disagree that it would be / IS commonly known. Tai Chi was brought to the US for example and popularized as a heath dance - loosing much of the martial interest / skills. Many dojo's became Mcdojo's of all styles. The "good stuff" *is *hard to find in most styles (especially in the realistic combative context). If you dont' think so, you are just VERY lucky, or have less exposure. Not all styles are created equal. At their pinnacle there are arts that are comparatively more effective than others. True-- most Aussies wouldn't bother-I just enjoyed the country and wanted to learn... 



Cyriacus said:


> Thats because in most places where they do Tai Chi, it IS a Health Dance with very little martialinterest or skill Ive been to plenty of places in this country - We really dont have it too terribly bad, as compared to what i hear of McDojos in various other places.



Yeah, tai chi is a sad state of affairs, we may have it better, but there is still more bad than good.  Perhaps TKD is to blame, its pervasive.



Cyriacus said:


> Did you learn much from listening to the politicians complain



I learned a lot.  I think are senate / congress ought to operate more like Oz.  They have a real debate, go back and forth, are witty, and dont hold back.  It was quite the experience, but Im a geek.  

Well, I'm not going to apologize for my talent, training, skill and experience level. As I said before, I WOULD put my material against anyone's in the world (with the exceptions of ground-fighting and weapons work). Most of communication is non-verbal, much context is lost through this venue, I get along with 99% of people in person, so perhaps you can reconsider giving me the benefit of the doubt? 



Cyriacus said:


> Im still giving you the benefit of the doubt - I only really take issue to you claiming to be able to 'improve' anyone, whilst softly downspeaking some other systems. I can provide quotes, if needed.



Well thank you, Ill try and give you the benefit as well.  I understand you taking issue with that.  It is quite a claim; but like I said my vast experience with instructors of countless arts bears it out, and I am willing to demonstrate and explicate.  You can dislike me now, but if you actually learn something from me somehow --you will be thanking me later.

Well, I'm sorry if that is what you inferred (it's all one round egg) -- I am fully aware it's not. There are seemingly endless variations on each of the numerous arts. I have NOT just learned one system, I have learned many, and have had extensive exposure to many more styles via teaching / training / traveling. 

Its pretty much what you said - Ill take your word for it that it wasnt intended.
Thanks, not intended. 

I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective. 



Cyriacus said:


> The implication is that some people think too much and move too little Im sure You are effective - Whether thats the result of Your style or You remains to be seen here.



True, people do that.  But I am the reverse, I like to learn to doteach people to do real time, then get into the geek out thinking too much if one likes, some things can be taught concurrently for an understanding of the principals and mechanics etc. 

In many cases, in a combative context-- I do know better than most everyone else. Again, I won't apologize for this, and I am willing to be proven wrong, I won't hold my breath, but if so the beer is on me . 



Cyriacus said:


> Ill say this: Alot of people are combatively ignorant. But thats symptomatic of alot of people not 'wanting' that side of Martial Arts these days, thereby making the Combatively oriented a minority. Some of which use this forum.



True, and if those of us who are not combatively ignorant can help each other improve and keep each other sharpwe can ameliorate some of the ignorance. As I said, I do know better than most-thus I can be of a lot of help, and I am happy to do that. 

Well "show me" should be a global standard, otherwise it's just academic talk / mouth-boxing. 
The problem with Mouth Boxing, only arises when someone is trying to 'win'.
If you listened / learned / trained and tested correctly you would see results. 
The same can be said of any system.

Well, I'm sorry but I don't have time to back it with volumes of "[]assuring information" --you also failed to specify WHAT information? I am one of the few that is NON-ANNONYMOUS here, and will put my money where my mouth is so to speak. Unlike yourself, I will not equivocate by saying "show me" is not the global standard. Again, I won't apologize-- but my methods are among the greatest. But, I didn't get there on my own, I had a lot of help, luck, and work behind it among other things. Moreover, YES, many others are foolish by comparison. I can point out where, why, how, and demonstrate how to improve--if you think that is preaching, fine-I consider it sharing and discussing. 



Cyriacus said:


> In this case, having open hands until right before a punch. Im not saying its bad, at all. Im objecting to it being implied as being better than other methods. Cyriacus is a nickname i got in highschool.  Dont ask.



Im not implying it, Im expressly saying its better in most situations than having a closed fist the whole times.  Even the tips of the fingers can be used to intercept and control an arm/elbow/wrist and the throw a person all in one smoothe motion-while simultaneously striking.  The fingers arent floppy they have enough structure to do the job, and adjust if in harms way without thought.  I highly doubt you can do the above, it is a bit higher level, and takes more time to be more dynamic and functional.  Like I said, Im sorry if that offends you, its just a fact. 



Cyriacus said:


> And this is not Facebook - Of course many of us are anonymous



Which I think is a problem, and a bulwark to more objective discussion, and helps the signal to noise ratio.  People who use their real names tend to feel more accountable for what they say.  Its just a fact of the internet and boards.  So if youre going to call someone out, I think it cowardly to hide behind a keyboard and alias.



Cyriacus said:


> If anything is foolish by comparison, its the result of that outlet being one teaching degraded content. The preaching is the praise of ones own system.



Many teach degraded content, part of the issue, true.  I associate preaching with trying to push a faith on peoplefaith is a certainty without actual knowledge or evidence.  When having a discussion I do the opposite of preach, I elaborate, and demonstrate, and offer to assist via video. 

"I agree it can be hard to not come across as hostile in these types of conversations- (maybe one of the few agreements we may have ) - as I mentioned - much of communication is non-verbal. No hostility here brother, I have a guest room and a beer/tea waiting for any friendly MA brothers/sisters in town, as I said, I get along with most people in person. "



Cyriacus said:


> In closing, i dont think theres anything wrong with what youre doing, teaching, or saying. Only the view that its the better way.



Thank you, but I do actually think and my experience tells me that in many contexts, my way IS the better way.  Im sorry if that offends you, but you really have no facts to the contrary.
I experimentally tried the whole hand open>close near contact thing yesterday. It works just fine - But i would have to specifically train it to have a decent amount of force in it.
You would have to train it, which means you cant really come to any real conclusions on its effectiveness in contrast to your current (merely 3 year old) method.  



Cyriacus said:


> Ive trained a different method of punching, and as a result, have more force in that.



Exactly, so again you have NO idea on the actual contrast and difference in effectiveness, you dont know if three years ago if I had taught you BOTH methods, you would definitely be able to tell the difference in effectiveness in both yourself in and others.  




Cyriacus said:


> If Id learnt it the other way from three years ago, Id be using the open hand closing near contact, and Id probably be equally forceful to the slightly modified reverse punch I tend to use.



Again, you have NO way of knowing that. 

But like I said I am here to share, so I ripped my more than decade old instructional DVD into a web clip to illustrate some of my points as time goes on.  The video is around an hour, and is packed with info and principals.  Trained correctly one could spend a year or more simply learning the basic ideas and execution behind what is displayed.  The mechanics, fluidity, real-time application only improves exponentially with time and training-it may take some time to make it work better than your current art (which many here have decades of practice in). Its hard to re-wire someones mechanics and responses-especially the more experienced they are.  But it can be done, incrementally at first, the as a whole, but that takes more hands on instruction, as everyone and every style had vast differences. If you do something similar to whats displayed look and play with the differences, build on that in understanding.

  I have improved quite a bit in a decade, and looking back, I would approach a beginner DVD a bit differently.  I will re-do the video at some point when I have time.  Its just not my main thing, I have a legal career to worry about. This instructional DVD was initially done to leave for my military students when I deployed.  I later decided to sell them to make it worth my time, and quite frankly it is invaluable information for someone wanting to hone their combatives with better mechanics/movement/power & principals--even though I've already made many improvements since. The mechanics are also a bit more - mechanical, more smooth and explosive application is taught later-and some can be seen in near the end of the DVD--there is also a simpler method at the end (bad sequence I know). The punches I talked about here are also not shown-that is more advanced. 

Furthermore, If anyone feels like critiquing please keep it constructive and non-conclusionary.  Moreover, you should be able to adequately perform/apply the methods real-time before you can compare and be taken seriously. 

Note; I am not giving anyone permission to edit, re-produce, or re-post the clip anywhere else.  

Here is the link, enjoy.  I will keep it up until my bandwidth is maxed-its a very long clip. It may take time to download (about half a gigabyte.) 

http://www.flowingcombat.net/fc1_2000a.mov.3gp




Cyriacus said:


> ...Is the tea green and the beer still cold?



Absolutely, and a spare bedroom if you dont want to spring for a hotelprovided of course youre not a crazy jerkwhich I doubt.   

Cheers,

Gary


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## Tez3 (Jun 23, 2012)

Zenjael and GaryR, this excellent organisation 'Plain English Campaign'  has come up with a very useful thing for your computers when writing your posts so that us lesser mortals can actually understand what you are talking about. I know that many groups use their own slang/buzzwords/goggledegook to make those not of their group feel like outsiders, but it's a trick of the snobbish and the arrogant. If what you have to say is worth saying, it's worth saying in plain English.
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/drivel-defence.html

One could suspect that some are using this other 'toy' from them.
http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/examples/gobbledygook-generator.html, that's fun but this is useful http://www.plainenglish.co.uk/recommended-reading.html


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## Cyriacus (Jun 23, 2012)

GaryR said:


> I softly down-speak because I am trying to be respectful to others. I could actually be MUCH harsher on other systems.  I have had to demonstrate such harsh critiques and points of failure in the past in person w/other instructors, fortunately nobody has ever gotten hurt (much).



This is where issuance arises. Would you kindly downspeak your own system for Me? Just a bit.



> If scientifically they shouldn&#8217;t be broken if they are not.  Unless as I said you believe in Qi protection or some other ridiculous non-proven force.  Nonetheless, I&#8217;m glad you ribs weren&#8217;t broken. This was incase your ideas were one of those science bound things, where you cant punch in a street fight and your body is a delicate flower. It may be more common than you think.


I dont believe in Qi. I believe that overanalysing things makes it sound like things just break easy.



> &#8220;Science bound&#8221;&#8212;I don&#8217;t believe in Qi or the supernatural if that&#8217;s what you mean.  There is no evidence it exists, or makes any difference in fighting or combat.  We have motion sensors and computer that can measure force, momentum, body mechanics, etc, down to the molectular level-no qi need apply.  Of course you can punch in a street fight.  Your body is not that delicate, and depending on age/size/strength etc. relatively we are all just about the same, a target is a target.  I don&#8217;t know where you got the impression I thought the above, again putting my words in my mouth and drawing attenuated and non-cogent implications from my posts.


With all due respect, youre putting words in my mouth that i believe you think those things. They were examples of the line of thinking. I believe i did start each one with "for example".



> The implication was unintended, you are drawing inferences and setting up a straw-man argument, please have me clarify before coming to conclusion&#8217;s, it&#8217;s a waste of time to correct you constantly for not directly addressing my quotes, and paraphrasing with what your incorrectly inferred.



And thats where youre wrong. See, im not trying to prove myself right about something here. Im interrogating why you think your method is so much better. And implications are a real thing, believe it or not. They can also be used as a way to evade a question by clarifying whether you are in favor of something or against it. Its important to bring up implications, and to comment on them, so that they can be clarified.



> &#8220;You didnt say complication makes things more effective - I said that, as a point unto itself. Keeping your hands open during a punch, and closing it on the end, even if it added power, still puts your fingers at an increased risk however you look at it. It is simpler, to hold a closed fist.
> If training can make anything second nature, than everything is simple by default.&#8221;
> I agree, it can put your fingers at more risks.  But if you train correctly, and have enough skill the benefits of an open hand far outweigh the risks. Before impact the hand can become a palm strike, a knife edge strike, a finger strike, or a punch at numerous angles with torque, etc.  This is a significant advantage, I guarantee you.  If you think differently you are simply out of your depth, and your system/style is severely lacking. ---Sorry.



Of course - Im just out of my depth for not having specifically trained something like this for an indeterminably long amount of time in order to be capable of applying it. I have no wish nor desire to do so, either. Which still says that your way is superior according to you.
And i for one use open hands. Just not like that.
Additionally, this assumes that under panic, adrenalin, and whatever else, that you can throw an open hand at someone then decide which strike youll turn it into.



> Yeah, tai chi is a sad state of affairs, we may have it better, but there is still more bad than good.  Perhaps TKD is to blame, it&#8217;s pervasive.


Perhaps - TKD, Karate, Kickboxing, Jiujutsu and such having McDojos seems common in the USA. I wouldnt be surprised if some people saw the moneymaking opportunity in simplifying things for a broad audience.



> Well thank you, I&#8217;ll try and give you the benefit as well.  I understand you taking issue with that.  It is quite a claim; but like I said my vast experience with instructors of countless arts bears it out, and I am willing to demonstrate and explicate.  You can dislike me now, but if you actually learn something from me somehow --you will be thanking me later.


I dont dislike you. I wont be thanking you later though 



> &#8220;I don't like the implication here, it is patently false as it applies to me. Much of the best information is OLD, the troglodytes can have great information, in an old clip / post I opened with an old quote from the supposed founder of Taijiquan. I've applied my material real time, and pressure tested against numerous styles, I can guarantee you it is effective.&#8221;
> 
> True, people do that.  But I am the reverse, I like to learn to do&#8212;teach people to do real time, then get into the geek out thinking too much if one likes, some things can be taught concurrently for an understanding of the principals and mechanics etc.


You can do anything real-time in Training. The environment is different to one of panic or reaction. However, theres no need to continue that line of discussion.



> True, and if those of us who are not combatively ignorant can help each other improve and keep each other sharp&#8212;we can ameliorate some of the ignorance. As I said, I do know better than most-thus I can be of a lot of help, and I am happy to do that.


That still assumes your combative method is superior, or anyone who adopts one akin to yours.



> I&#8217;m not implying it, Im expressly saying it&#8217;s better in most situations than having a closed fist the whole times.  Even the tips of the fingers can be used to intercept and control an arm/elbow/wrist and the throw a person all in one smoothe motion-while simultaneously striking.  The fingers aren&#8217;t &#8220;floppy&#8221; they have enough structure to do the job, and adjust if in harm&#8217;s way without thought.  I highly doubt you can do the above, it is a bit higher level, and takes more time to be more dynamic and functional.  Like I said, I&#8217;m sorry if that offends you, it&#8217;s just a fact.



Perfect quote material. I can, in fact, intercept a strike with an open hand. To control, grab, push, restrain, or otherwise touch an arm, elbow, or wrist - Before either taking the person down, or using it as a means to strike them. But I use the point just at the base of the fingers. Its easier to grab with. I see no benefit over that to using the fingers themselves when theyre a smaller area, which is more privy to miss. In using the center of the hand, just at the start of the fingers, i have a minimal chance of missing. I can also do it consistently. Amazingly, i dont do it with your method.



> Which I think is a problem, and a bulwark to more objective discussion, and helps the signal to noise ratio.  People who use their real names tend to feel more accountable for what they say.  It&#8217;s just a fact of the internet and boards.  So if you&#8217;re going to call someone out, I think it cowardly to hide behind a keyboard and alias.


Youre welcome to your opinion.



> Thank you, but I do actually think and my experience tells me that in many contexts, my way IS the better way.  I&#8217;m sorry if that offends you, but you really have no facts to the contrary.
> I experimentally tried the whole hand open>close near contact thing yesterday. It works just fine - But i would have to specifically train it to have a decent amount of force in it.
> You would have to train it, which means you can&#8217;t really come to any real conclusions on its effectiveness in contrast to your current (merely 3 year old) method.


Im not trying to get you to say your way is inferior, or equal to all other ways. Theres nothing wrong with having a better way. But it isnt the standard for other better ways. It isnt the only better way, and better ways dont all need to be the same in order to be better. And while i have been training in this system for 3 years, its not the only training ive done in my life.
And again - I would have to train it for an indeterminable amount of time to even conclude its effectiveness in contrast to one you can use within a month or two. I have no desire to learn this method.



> Exactly, so again you have NO idea on the actual contrast and difference in effectiveness, you don&#8217;t know if three years ago if I had taught you BOTH methods, you would definitely be able to tell the difference in effectiveness in both yourself in and others.


Ah - So it takes about three years to learn it. There we go.
But see, if i learnt it three years ago, id have gotten so used to it of course id find it effective.
I am not trying to prove you wrong, or your methods wrong, or even that youre wrong about being better. It doesnt concern me.
Im trying to put in that theres more than one way to be better.



> Again, you have NO way of knowing that.


So i need to be really good at something to be able to talk about it?



> Furthermore, If anyone feels like critiquing please keep it constructive and non-conclusionary.  Moreover, you should be able to adequately perform/apply the methods real-time before you can compare and be taken seriously.


Do you mean our methods, or yours?
Because if its yours, then conversation over. Its like a sales pitch. "Learn my method, so you can have this conversation about it. Trust me!"



> Here is the link, enjoy.  I will keep it up until my bandwidth is maxed-it&#8217;s a very long clip. It may take time to download (about half a gigabyte.)
> 
> http://www.flowingcombat.net/fc1_2000a.mov.3gp


I might watch it this afternoon if i have time.



> Absolutely, and a spare bedroom if you don&#8217;t want to spring for a hotel&#8212;provided of course you&#8217;re not a crazy jerk&#8212;which I doubt.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Gary


Perhaps this was all an elaborate conspiracy to get inside your house?


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## GaryR (Jun 23, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> You can do anything real-time in Training. The environment is different to one of panic or reaction. However, theres no need to continue that line of discussion.



Of course, I include real-time training a term that includes RBSD - adrenal response training, which triggers such panic/reaction and works the methods accordingly...but thats another thread for another day. 


I_&#8217;m  not implying it, Im expressly saying it&#8217;s better in most situations  than having a closed fist the whole times.  Even the tips of the fingers  can be used to intercept and control an arm/elbow/wrist and the throw a  person all in one smoothe motion-while simultaneously striking.  The  fingers aren&#8217;t &#8220;floppy&#8221; they have enough structure to do the job, and  adjust if in harm&#8217;s way without thought.  I highly doubt you can do the  above, it is a bit higher level, and takes more time to be more dynamic  and functional.  Like I said, I&#8217;m sorry if that offends you, it&#8217;s just a  fact.  

_




Cyriacus said:


> Perfect quote material. I can, in fact, intercept a strike with an open hand. To control, grab, push, restrain, or otherwise touch an arm, elbow, or wrist - Before either taking the person down, or using it as a means to strike them. But I use the point just at the base of the fingers. Its easier to grab with. I see no benefit over that to using the fingers themselves when theyre a smaller area, which is more privy to miss. In using the center of the hand, just at the start of the fingers, i have a minimal chance of missing. I can also do it consistently. Amazingly, i dont do it with your method.



I am glad you enjoyed it.  That's why I said "_even_ the fingers..." Again you took me out of context and ran with it.  I agree it is easier to grab with the the rest of the hand/palm, the fingers are and just an extra tweak, and a bit advanced, its better to have more square inches available to functionally intercept than not, in the chaos of something, who knows how much every inch will give you. The video has examples...








Cyriacus said:


> Ah - So it takes about three years to learn it. There we go.
> But see, if i learnt it three years ago, id have gotten so used to it of course id find it effective.



Again, I did not say that, I said you would know a difference by then, not that you would have mastered it.  But yes, by that time it would be more effective than a person who started to learn another punching method at the same time all other things being equal.  








Cyriacus said:


> Perhaps this was all an elaborate conspiracy to get inside your house?



Haha, I'm sure. 

Cheers,

G


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2012)

GaryR said:


> Of course, I include real-time training a term that includes RBSD - adrenal response training, which triggers such panic/reaction and works the methods accordingly...but thats another thread for another day.


Aha


> I am glad you enjoyed it.  That's why I said "_even_ the fingers..." Again you took me out of context and ran with it.  I agree it is easier to grab with the the rest of the hand/palm, the fingers are and just an extra tweak, and a bit advanced, its better to have more square inches available to functionally intercept than not, in the chaos of something, who knows how much every inch will give you. The video has examples...


I really didnt. You said i likely didnt know how to do that kind of thing - Amazingly, I can. Without using your method. Because there are other functional methods which dont needed to be compared to the oracle which is yours.




> Again, I did not say that, I said you would know a difference by then, not that you would have mastered it.  But yes, by that time it would be more effective than a person who started to learn another punching method at the same time all other things being equal.


So how many years would it take for me to learn it, if i knew a difference after three years? How many years would i have to train just to use this one strike, when i could be throwing a strong punch after a month or two, which stands only to improve without needing to be 'learnt' over the course of however many years we're talking here?
And again, this states, that punching is ineffectual compared to this almighty method that takes over three years to master. Which happens to be yours.


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## K-man (Jun 24, 2012)

GaryR said:


> I agree, it can put your fingers at more risks.  But if you train correctly, and have enough skill the benefits of an open hand far outweigh the risks. Before impact the hand can become a palm strike, a knife edge strike, a finger strike, or a punch at numerous angles with torque, etc.  This is a significant advantage,* I guarantee you.  If you think differently you are simply out of your depth, and your system/style is severely lacking. ---Sorry. *
> 
> Anyone who has an opinion different to you appears to be simply out of their depth!
> 
> ...


Although I said I was out of the original discussion, I have to come back in with this clip in case anyone with less experience than you thinks it is good technique.  I made three pages of notes while I was watching this clip but I won't bore everyone with all of it.

Firstly there was conflicting advice.  Initially you were walking straight into the attacker, then two minutes later you are saying you should move to the side.  The way you demonstrated moving in would result in physically clashing. Fine if you are bigger and heavier, but not suitable if you are facing a bigger attacker. The other flaw in the video is that the attacker is not attacking with intent. He is standing there allowing you to do what you like to him. When you moved to the side I liked it when you demonstrated not stepping away, but when you demonstrated the 'right' way your attacker wasn't moved off his line at all.

Then you spoke of peripheral vision.  Fantastic. Peripheral vision is critical, but then you said, "look over his shoulder". That is not peripheral vision. That is just not looking at your attacker's hands or face or what ever.

Then we get to your development of power by pushing with the back foot flat on the floor and turning from the waist without lifting the back heel off the floor. Locking the body like that only allows about 50% of power to be delivered. This came up again later when you were discussing 'linking'.  I can now understand why you said in a previous post that your front punch was more powerful than a reverse strike. Using your linking system you would be lucky to deliver even half the available power of a properly executed reverse strike.

Now we come to your fighting stance. You would get your head knocked off in all but a sporting contest. Earlier you said the chin should be pulled in but in you demo you had it stuck out asking to be hit. And, you don't tuck your chin in by tilting your head forward. That compromises your centre. You tuck your chin by lifting the crown of your head. Then your stance was too far from your ribs.  Apart from the inherent physical weakness of your upper body, your ribs are just asking to be hit. I don't like kicking that high but even I could do serious damage to anyone who offered such an unprotected target. 

You then said that you put most or even all you weight on the back foot.  That's just plain wrong. A good fighting stance will have pretty much even weight distribution that will allow quick movement in any direction. If you're on your back foot and an attacker pushes in, you have nowhere to go. 

Then you contradicted yourself again and started demonstrating 100% weight on the front foot.    ???  One of the strikes you demonstrated could not physically have been delivered without lifting your heel, but in the video we couldn't see your feet.

Next we come to 'push hands'.  Once again I believe you technique is terrible. Your arms are rigid instead of absorbing and I would not be pushing out. You would be hit by your partner's free hand. One really interesting thing you did was to step back, pulling your partner's hand down and firing your hand to your partner's face to "force the block", your words.  When I was describing my 'predetermined response' in the thread on bunkai, you told me that that was choreography. 

A bit later and you were talking of "springing up off the ground". I would have thought that was the exact opposite of what internal martial arts would teach.

I wrote down heaps more comments but I think I have posted enough to demonstrate why I don't like your material and I don't think you have a lot to offer any of the more experienced guys on this forum.        :asian:


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## Gnarlie (Jun 24, 2012)

I have to agree with K-Man on the point that both the presentation and the techniques presented in that video are left wanting when compared with others on the market. 

Sloppy spelling errors, contradicting concepts and conflicting messages in their delivery, inconsistency of technique, no real time demonstrations and altogether too much talk for the relatively small amount of information that was actually being delivered.  Those factors combined make it a boring, strenuous and unrewarding watch.  I'm glad it is not a DVD I paid for. 

The 'best' SD intructors have a few qualities in common which were not present here: humility, ability to inspire others, strong technique demonstration, with minimal flaws acknowledged and addressed, full speed demonstrations under pressure and concise information delivery which keeps the pace lively.  Often there is an avenue for viewers to ask questions, removing the need for the instructor to waffle on. 

I am your ideal target market - someone with an active interest in developing and teaching SD technique, and sorry Gary, but even I found myself reaching for the fast foward button on many occasions.   It's boring, dude!  Watch it in fast forward and it is painfully obvious why - it's 60% talk, and repetitious, conflicted talk at that. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 24, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> You can also use the spike to control their arm, given how close you're  willing to get. It's the nicer way of defending with it. Obviously the  normative is to ram the hand with the spike, especially at the fingers.  Let the energy of their swing help self-destruct that pretty ball of  joints they have.



Ok, I responded to the rest of this on the other thread you posted this response on. If unsure, see here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...list-and-The-Specialist&p=1500306#post1500306

I did manage to miss your take on the spike there however. Wow, really???? A punch comes in and you jam it with deadly ninjer precision using your elbow to "spike"? For the record, that has completely missed the point of what Cyriacus and I were referring to with the concept of a spike. It's a defensive barrier that's very very gross motor and primal i.e: covering your damn head against incoming punches, end of story. Using the spike to strike is very very very very very very (did I mention very?) gross motor and is used against the torso of your opponent to buy you some valuable space or a split second in order to move away and reassess, not break their fingers with it! I don't see how such a fine motor action would be the normative by any means. Where are you getting that from? I for one, don't like getting punched in the elbow thank you.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Ok, I responded to the rest of this on the other thread you posted this response on. If unsure, see here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...list-and-The-Specialist&p=1500306#post1500306
> 
> I did manage to miss your take on the spike there however. Wow, really???? A punch comes in and you jam it with deadly ninjer precision using your elbow to "spike"? For the record, that has completely missed the point of what Cyriacus and I were referring to with the concept of a spike. It's a defensive barrier that's very very gross motor and primal i.e: covering your damn head against incoming punches, end of story. Using the spike to strike is very very very very very very (did I mention very?) gross motor and is used against the torso of your opponent to buy you some valuable space or a split second in order to move away and reassess, not break their fingers with it! I don't see how such a fine motor action would be the normative by any means. Where are you getting that from? I for one, don't like getting punched in the elbow thank you.


And it kinda relies on the person punching your elbow.


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## GaryR (Jun 24, 2012)

First, 98% of your entire post is Horesh#t;You are a goju ryu practitioner and have no idea what you're looking at or how to apply it.  Before that video was filmed I had already pressure tested my material and instructed three different instructor level Goju practitioners.  One who had a big school,and had been around for 30+ years.  I'd be willing to put money on it that I could not only best you, but your teacher.Your notes would be academic, how about a video critique? Demonstrate you aren't talking out your *** and can actually apply my methods sufficiently enough for comparison??? If you can't do so, you are just mouth-boxing. As far as I'm concerned your the peanut gallery. 



K-man said:


> Although I said I was out of the original discussion, I have to come back in with this clip in case anyone with less experience than you thinks it is good technique.  I made three pages of notes while I was watching this clip but I won't bore everyone with all of it.



Like, I said, before you go giving B.S advice to noobs, how about you demonstrate you are even capable of making that comparison?  How about you post your material, I will rip it apart via video and a partner. You have 3 years of experience in your chosen art, this is laughable.  :BSmeter:




K-man said:


> Firstly there was conflicting advice.  Initially you were walking straight into the attacker, then two minutes later you are saying you should move to the side.  The way you demonstrated moving in would result in physically clashing.



Of course getting off the line is crucial.  But what is also being taught is to keep one's structure in the face of attack.  The beginner will have more trouble getting off the line the first day, and one can't rely on that saving them, structure should be good enough to hold up to a collision with someone else.  



K-man said:


> Fine if you are bigger and heavier, but not suitable if you are facing a bigger attacker.



Actually if you will note the first guy in the video was significantly bigger than I, he is a power-lifter, and fitness trainer - a retired Senior NCO. He could bench press 450 pounds at the time. Eddie could come at me full speed at force, and I could stop him dead in his tracks - I would'nt in real-life-but its a good structure test and tool.  I have also done the same with bigger guys - probably 300 pounds is the largest.   here are his words---

"
Excellent instructor! Awesome martial art style! I have been in the military  for over 18 years and have traveled the world. I have searched for a style that  works in real combat situations. Never have I seen a system as effective as  this. Within eight weeks of study under Gary and Chris, I have learned more  about actual "real world" self defense than all of my years of other styles.  This "dynamic duo" is a wealth of information and motivation. If you have seen  my picture on this web site, you know that I am a big man. I stand six feet tall  and weigh 240 pounds. I bench press 450 pounds, have 19 1/2 inch arms, and am  very fast for my size. Gary is 100 pounds lighter than me. Yet he can  instantaneously stop my attack and send me flying across the room. If he can  stop me, he can stop almost anyone! I encourage everybody that wants to learn  real world self defense to contact Gary. This is the real deal! At last, my  search is over.
PS: I have a five-year-old Son. As with any parent, I want  what is best for him. My wife and I are teaching him how to live and thrive in  today and tomorrow's society. When he gets old enough, I will be able to pass on  one of the most valuable skills that he will ever learn...survival! All of the  education, values, and spiritual lessons will be lost if he can't survive a  hostile attack. Hopefully it will never happen. But, if it ever comes, he will  have a warrior's skill and be equipped to deal with it. 
I want to thank Gary  in advance for the chance to pass this gift on to my Son. 
_
Eddie  Mcgee-personal best fitness training"

_ 




K-man said:


> The other flaw in the video is that the attacker is not attacking with intent. He is standing there allowing you to do what you like to him. When you moved to the side I liked it when you demonstrated not stepping away, but when you demonstrated the 'right' way your attacker wasn't moved off his line at all.



I agree that the attacker is not attacking with more intent, pre red-man suit days, it was hard to get them to come at me with alot of power.  However, this is a beginner video-not a demonstration, although now near the end I would probably put more intent / realism into it with more gear and dynamic scenario drills, this will be in later volumes. 

It was probably a mistake not getting off the line on the other occasion, or I was highlighting something else, I would have to look back..





K-man said:


> Then you spoke of peripheral vision.  Fantastic. Peripheral vision is critical, but then you said, "look over his shoulder". That is not peripheral vision. That is just not looking at your attacker's hands or face or what ever.



I never look directly at the attacker hands in real training, or face, that is ridiculous-more words your putting in my mouth and assumptions. You can look over the shoulder and still have much of his body in your peripheral - It is a drilled method, and the peripheral IS used, I'm sorry if you cannot do so, but perhaps you are confused. I do it a bit differently now, a little neurophysiology goes a long way. 





K-man said:


> Then we get to your development of power by pushing with the back foot flat on the floor and turning from the waist without lifting the back heel off the floor. Locking the body like that only allows about 50% of power to be delivered.



The foot cannot possibly be "flat" on the floor, unless one is flatfooted.  The mechanics drill is highlighting really the turning of the knee/waist/arm, etc in concert to create a link.  Driving from the heel allow the power / connection to develop turning better on that pivot point.  Outside of the drill the whole foot is used and weight can roll forward as you move forward - it is done later in the video, but since I mostly drag the foot to keep ground connection the power link is more subtle - again you have no real reference for this training.  I assure you I can probably demonstrate 150-200% of power compared to your goju methods.



K-man said:


> This came up again later when you were discussing 'linking'.  I can now understand why you said in a previous post that your front punch was more powerful than a reverse strike. Using your linking system you would be lucky to deliver even half the available power of a properly executed reverse strike.



Again, you are simply wrong.  You making assumptions from the other side of the globe.  You also have not seen/felt me actually HIT much of anything very hard.  As I said my method (the IMA method) can punch much harder than any reverse punch - I can even do so from the front hand or back.  



K-man said:


> Now we come to your fighting stance. You would get your head knocked off in all but a sporting contest.



I have done sporting contests, I have bounced at nightclubs, I have saved my own life with my material, and have put my stance against more pressure than you or your teacher likely ever have.  I could care less about a "sporting contest" I like to stay in reality, I'm not much of a martial sport guy, I like the martial. Again you are plainly wrong. 



K-man said:


> Earlier you said the chin should be pulled in but in you demo you had it stuck out asking to be hit. And, you don't tuck your chin in by tilting your head forward. That compromises your centre. You tuck your chin by lifting the crown of your head.



True, I agree I did tend to lead with my head-it is a posture issue, I also have some scoliosis, and lower back problems from Iraq.  Your preaching to the choir with lifting the crown etc, but I could/can hold my center just fine thanks. 




K-man said:


> Then your stance was too far from your ribs.  Apart from the inherent physical weakness of your upper body, your ribs are just asking to be hit. I don't like kicking that high but even I could do serious damage to anyone who offered such an unprotected target.



I disagree, and my experience proves you to be false.  The arms are out from the ribs because the arms are in a significantly better structural position to absorb/redirect an attack - and produce power.  But as you demonstrated before by not fathoming me being able to stop an attacker much larger in his tracks (not the best idea of course) - you have demonstrated you are ignorant to the "why" and "how" behind my arm position, and that you and your teachers are incapable of that level of skill.  You are way out of your depth I promise you.  



K-man said:


> You then said that you put most or even all you weight on the back foot.  That's just plain wrong. A good fighting stance will have pretty much even weight distribution that will allow quick movement in any direction. If you're on your back foot and an attacker pushes in, you have nowhere to go.



This quote just displays your ignorance, your lack of skill, and your inexperience. A fighting "stance" is a dynamic thing that can be explosively and instantly changed. (this was not in the video).   The weight is on the back foot because 99% of the time I do not have to move backwards, this is a bad strategy.  I move in, off the line if time, and force them off balance at the same time (and strike) regardless of my "stance".  If the weight is on the back there is more mass/force to move into the front foot -drive forward /at angle/ and/or force them off center.  

If one needs to move backward the concept which you don't understand "fajing" is used to explosively and almost instantly shift the weight and execute a powerful, smooth and effective method.  This was not on the video, somethings you fail to understand are built in for an AH-HA moment later-which usually comes after working extensively with a partner.  If the attacker pushes in I have plenty of places to go, perhaps you could benefit from some "push hands" training - I could show you hundreds of ways why your completely wrong. Ideally though one should MOVE, and not "hold ground" - but you don't always have time.  

Additionally the weight is shifted to the front, or visa verse with an explosive waist shake back and forth, there is a lot of torque sent downward and bounced back up.  Xinygyichuan does this particularly well.  Many practitioners of such could prove you wrong as well.  



K-man said:


> Then you contradicted yourself again and started demonstrating 100% weight on the front foot.    ???  One of the strikes you demonstrated could not physically have been delivered without lifting your heel, but in the video we couldn't see your feet.



If you start with the weight on the back, and shift to the front, you eventually need to shift the weight back, after all, the power should be continuous, and the strikes explosively move with the torque of the waist,, and power from the root.  

All of the strikes I demonstrated can be physically delivered with extreme effectiveness.  Some times my foot does come off the ground - it is required for some methods, after all, the legs are great for throwing, kicking, trapping, springing off, etc.





K-man said:


> Next we come to 'push hands'.  Once again I believe you technique is terrible. Your arms are rigid instead of absorbing and I would not be pushing out.


Again, this is where you are simply ignorant of the "why" behind this beginner method of push hands, later it gets much more fluid, dynamic, and engages both hands and the legs move freely.  I will link a clip later illustrating this a bit.  I said in the begging the movements are more rigid.  The arms are more rigid to teach the student relaxed structure that will ward off a 300 pound attacker in his tracks and bounce him off.  This is the idea of "Peng" and again you are incapable of doing such thing likely well at any level.  Perhaps you should ask more "why" questions before coming to conclusions on my training methods.  



K-man said:


> You would be hit by your partner's free hand.



Well thank you Captain obvious, the training drill was not meant to be a contest about using each others free hands to hit.  The drill was about teaching Peng, structure, turning the waist and rooting their energy when the peng is pushed on.  There are countless benefits, and push hands goes way beyond your level, given time I'll post videos.  You can let the public judge for themselves, I would love to see your videos in turn.



K-man said:


> One really interesting thing you did was to step back, pulling your partner's hand down and firing your hand to your partner's face to "force the block", your words.  When I was describing my 'predetermined response' in the thread on bunkai, you told me that that was choreography.



I didn't deny its natural for one to want to cover the face in response to an attack, but again this DRILL is meant to to one to use the peng/structure with both hands and change it up.  The same method works while moving off the line forward, etc. 



K-man said:


> A bit later and you were talking of "springing up off the ground". I would have thought that was the exact opposite of what internal martial arts would teach.



That's your misperception, you don't have to spring up high, just into a target, following through taking them down/ off their center.  Another quote that displays your ignorance of what I do-and IMA does. 



K-man said:


> I wrote down heaps more comments but I think I have posted enough to demonstrate why I don't like your material and I don't think you have a lot to offer any of the more experienced guys on this forum.        :asian:



You should have spent the time attempting to learn the methods before you talk out of the A@@.  It takes a good while to reap the benefits, especially since your Goju has you seriously Mal-trained. Thus far you haven't provided anything of value, nor have you demonstrated you are nothing but the peanut gallery with no experience in my arts/system. I have pressure tested / taught countless other instructors, special operators, special agents, and competitive boxers to name a few.  I have more to offer the instructors here than you can contemplate.  

You have three years of training in your chosen system.  Your a newb in your chosen art, and are WAY out of your depth.  Again, lets see your video?? This is laughable.  I bet I wouldn't have to put my tea down to demonstrate why and how your methods are grossly inadequate.  If you would like to fly out sometime when I have the extra $ I will reimburse you for your plane ticket if you can demonstrate that my methods are not significantly superior (in a friendly way of course-with rules).  It will be filmed and posted regardless of result.  Also feel free to bring your teacher.  

best,

Gary


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## GaryR (Jun 24, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> I have to agree with K-Man on the point that both the presentation and the techniques presented in that video are left wanting when compared with others on the market.



First, your primary art is Tae Kwon Do - which I call tae kwon JOKE, combatively. TDJ is almost single-highhandedly responsible for the degradation of quality in the USA and all over the world.  There might be better vids on the market, that vid is old and in no way comprehensive, it is also missing some crucial "flowing motion drills". Like I said before, unless and until you can show me why and how other material is more effective you are simply part of the peanut gallery.  



Gnarlie said:


> Sloppy spelling errors, contradicting concepts and conflicting messages in their delivery, inconsistency of technique, no real time demonstrations and altogether too much talk for the relatively small amount of information that was actually being delivered.  Those factors combined make it a boring, strenuous and unrewarding watch.  I'm glad it is not a DVD I paid for.



Spelling errors is your fist complaint, how petty, lol.  I have more important things to do than spell check my posts.  

You have failed to explicate and demonstrate how and why my concepts are conflicting? The information if trained correctly could last your years.  You are simply ignorant as to how and why, I guarantee it.  



Gnarlie said:


> The 'best' SD intructors have a few qualities in common which were not present here: humility, ability to inspire others, strong technique demonstration, with minimal flaws acknowledged and addressed, full speed demonstrations under pressure and concise information delivery which keeps the pace lively.  Often there is an avenue for viewers to ask questions, removing the need for the instructor to waffle on.



Humility went out the window here when people decided to be ignorant jack@!es. It was not a DVD where I wanted people to ask questions, the questions are address in class/person. Demonstrations were purposely not put under extreme pressure, you don't throw that a newbs right away, they can get hurt, especially without in person help.  



Gnarlie said:


> I am your ideal target market - someone with an active interest in developing and teaching SD technique, and sorry Gary, but even I found myself reaching for the fast foward button on many occasions.   It's boring, dude!  Watch it in fast forward and it is painfully obvious why - it's 60% talk, and repetitious, conflicted talk at that.



That's because you fail to understand what and why is being taught, and you also failed to learn it and surely couldn't apply it anywhere near my level for more than a decade. Whats displayed is VERY basic, white belt stuff.   Sorry its boring!! But thousands of people have found it usefu (I used to advertise in Black belt magazine) even those in your "target market", again I remind you I have trained instructors in  EVERY art you have trained in.  I'm sorry but this is way above your level, your background looks like a TKD joke.  Another peanut gallery comment.  I have a few friends working NATO in Germany, if I'm ever around I'd be happy to buy you a beer and embarrass you on video. You can also bring your teacher. 

Best,

Gary 



Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2[/QUOTE]


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## K-man (Jun 24, 2012)

GaryR said:


> First, 98% of your entire post is Horesh#t;You are a goju ryu practitioner and have no idea what you're looking at or how to apply it.  Before that video was filmed I had already pressure tested my material and instructed three different instructor level Goju practitioners.  One who had a big school,and had been around for 30+ years.  I'd be willing to put money on it that I could not only best you, but your teacher.Your notes would be academic, how about a video critique? Demonstrate you aren't talking out your *** and can actually apply my methods sufficiently enough for comparison??? If you can't do so, you are just mouth-boxing. As far as I'm concerned your the peanut gallery.
> 
> Don't you love the hypocrisy? You were the one that knew all about Goju when we were discussing kata and bunkai in the Iain Abernenthy thread. Despite the fact that you compressively demonstrated your lack of knowledge of kata there, you claimed to be an expert in the field.  I don't claim to be an expert. Now as to 30+ year Goju instructors still being able to learn something, great. It just goes to show that they are prepared to learn from someone, unlike you.
> 
> ...


I have to go out now, but rest assured, I will return and address your other comments.


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## jks9199 (Jun 24, 2012)

Folks, tread lightly.  Both fraudbusting and challenge posts are prohibited around here, and someone'll have to put a mod hat on soon if it keeps up.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Folks, tread lightly.  Both fraudbusting and challenge posts are prohibited around here, and someone'll have to put a mod hat on soon if it keeps up.


That would be a bad thing?


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 24, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> That would be a bad thing?



It depends on who the ban hammer is aimed at. Eliminating at least one egomaniac from here might freshen the air. Maybe if he gave his grandma down, gave her a baloney sandwich, then explained to her how he gets his super abilities from Goku Nutz. Maybe not. Either way, I'm still pretty and he's still a cranky, crusty, dried up nugget of, nugget.  :ultracool Who still doesn't know who I am. But everyone knows who I am.

Regarding who is a fraud, my moneys on the long winded guy. The harder he tries to explain how much of a fart smucker he is, the more I think he's sull of fhit. :s22:


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## Grenadier (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm going to say this as plainly as possible.

Fraudbusting and challenge posts are grounds for having one's account banned.  

It is *strongly* advised that one re-reads his own statement before posting, since bans are normally *not* reversible.  

Please keep this conversation civil, and on-topic.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## K-man (Jun 24, 2012)

GaryR said:


> The foot cannot possibly be "flat" on the floor, unless one is flatfooted.  The mechanics drill is highlighting really the turning of the knee/waist/arm, etc in concert to create a link.  Driving from the heel allow the power / connection to develop turning better on that pivot point.  Outside of the drill the whole foot is used and weight can roll forward as you move forward - it is done later in the video, but since I mostly drag the foot to keep ground connection the power link is more subtle - again you have no real reference for this training.  *I assure you I can probably demonstrate 150-200% of power compared to your goju methods.*
> 
> You just can have a rational discussion without denigrating someone or something.  I learned my striking from a guy from Shotokan. The striking I learned while training Goju Kai did not have the power I was looking for.  What I have been training for many years is almost identical to the striking as taught at the Jundokan. So even within one style there are many variations.
> 
> ...


I'm sure *Gnarlie* won't mind me objecting on his behalf to your subsequent attack on him.

_First, your primary art is Tae Kwon Do - which I call tae kwon JOKE, combatively. TDJ is almost single-highhandedly responsible for the degradation of quality in the USA and all over the world. There might be better vids on the market, that vid is old and in no way comprehensive, it is also missing some crucial "flowing motion drills". Like I said before, unless and until you can show me why and how other material is more effective you are simply part of the peanut gallery. 


_You really like verbal bullying don't you? Anyone who cares to offer a different opinion is a peanut? Really?

Then you say, "Spelling errors is your fist complaint, how petty, lol. I have more important things to do than spell check my posts."

Well Gary, the spelling error wasn't in your posts. It was large as life in your DVD.   

And this:
*"Humility went out the window here when people decided to be ignorant jack@!es.* _It was not a DVD where I wanted people to ask questions, the questions are address in class/person. Demonstrations were purposely not put under extreme pressure, you don't throw that a newbs right away, they can get hurt, especially without in person help."_

Sorry Gary, I must have missed your post where you demonstrated humility.

And this:
_"That's because you fail to understand what and why is being taught, and _*you also failed to learn it and surely couldn't apply it anywhere near my level for more than a decade.*_ Whats displayed is VERY basic, white belt stuff. Sorry its boring!! But thousands of people have found it usefu (I used to advertise in Black belt magazine) even those in your "target market", again I remind you I have trained instructors in EVERY art you have trained in. _*I'm sorry but this is way above your level, your background looks like a TKD joke. Another peanut gallery comment.*_ I have a few friends working NATO in Germany, if I'm ever around I'd be happy to buy you a beer and embarrass you on video. You can also bring your teacher."


_Well Gary that's it from me.  You might gather I'm getting sick of your personal attacks. Perhaps if you approach this forum as an equal, people might feel better towards you.    :asian:


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## Gnarlie (Jun 25, 2012)

GaryR said:


> First, your primary art is Tae Kwon Do - which I call tae kwon JOKE, combatively. TDJ is almost single-highhandedly responsible for the degradation of quality in the USA and all over the world.  There might be better vids on the market, that vid is old and in no way comprehensive, it is also missing some crucial "flowing motion drills". Like I said before, unless and until you can show me why and how other material is more effective you are simply part of the peanut gallery.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

1)  You don't really know anything about me

2)  Don't waste your time coming to Germany, I'd rather spend the time having an actual snooze than meet you in person.  I have some of the best instructors in the world in their respective disciplines in this city.  All of them have better martial and communicative skills than you have demonstrated.  Including the ones that don't speak my languages. 

3)  You asked for critique.  I critiqued.   Disagreement with you does not equal ignorance, stupidity, inexperience or misunderstanding.  

Have a nice day

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cyriacus (Jun 25, 2012)

Oh, this looks fun 
I dunno where it came from, but Ive gotta comment on it.



> _First, your primary art is Tae Kwon Do - which I call tae kwon JOKE, combatively.
> _


So is whatever it is You train in, because if taekwondo is the standard for a joke, yours is funnier!  -I cant remember where I read this, but it was memorably hilarious, since its true in just about every instance of someone saying Tae Kwon Joke.


> *"Humility went out the window here when people decided to be ignorant jack@!es.* _It was not a DVD where I wanted people to ask questions, the questions are address in class/person. Demonstrations were purposely not put under extreme pressure, you don't throw that a newbs right away, they can get hurt, especially without in person help."
> _


In other words, as long as noone questions You and just assumes You are correct?
I cant say more without pushing it a bit.



> _"_*I'm sorry but this is way above your level, your background looks like a TKD joke. Another peanut gallery comment.*_ I have a few friends working NATO in Germany, if I'm ever around I'd be happy to buy you a beer and embarrass you on video. You can also bring your teacher."
> _


Yours is even funnier though, remember?


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## Gnarlie (Jun 25, 2012)

Also, there are 2 more things:

If you think TKD is a joke, then that gives some indication of the level of depth and objectivity with which you look at various martial arts: shallow and prejudiced. 

and

If you think that an art defines the abilities of a person, then you might want to consider your own ignorance level.

I would have thought you would have realised this already, what with all your experience and stuff? 

Have a nice day

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 25, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> And it kinda relies on the person punching your elbow.



They might... it's a viable target isn't it? One of the secret mystical ones I mean


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## Cyriacus (Jun 25, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> They might... it's a viable target isn't it? One of the secret mystical ones I mean


Well, I know whenever I get into Bar Fights the first thing I go for is the Elbow.
Takes em out quicksmart/


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 25, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, I know *whenever I get into Bar Fights* the first thing I go for is the Elbow.
> Takes em out quicksmart/



You mean you take breaks between your bar fights? Seems like wasted time to me. Just sayin


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## Cyriacus (Jun 25, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> You mean you take breaks between your bar fights? Seems like wasted time to me. Just sayin


Oh, I prefer fighting whilst parachuting through the air. The barfights are just while i wait for the plane to land.
Also, I dont sleep, rest, or do anything but train on my enemies.


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## Supra Vijai (Jun 25, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Oh, I prefer fighting whilst parachuting through the air. The barfights are just while i wait for the plane to land.
> Also, I dont sleep, rest, or do anything but train on my enemies.



Oh, good to know! Zero G fighting is t3h shiz! Really inspires me to go Super Saiyajin and all that


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## Cyriacus (Jun 25, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Oh, good to know! Zero G fighting is t3h shiz! Really inspires me to go Super Saiyajin and all that


Yeah man. This one time, I was falling through the air, and I KIAI'd My enemy so hard He just gave up.


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## GaryR (Jun 26, 2012)

I'll hit the rest latei in the most civil way possible, I'd like to see this discourse go in a better direction, but since you questioned my service record I'll clarify this first---

True, I agree I did tend to lead with my head-it is a posture issue, I  also have some scoliosis, and lower back problems from Iraq.  Your  preaching to the choir with lifting the crown etc, but I could/can hold  my center just fine thanks. 


K-man said:


> I'm sorry you have scoliosis. So does one of my  children. And your back problem from Iraq? The video was made before the  invasion of Iraq



I'm sorry to hear that about your children.  Yes the video was made before the invasion, before the invasion I flew operation Northern Watch and Operation Southern watch --also before the Iraq invasion was of course Operation Enduring Freedom..Afghanistan, I loose track of what injuries I got when, but Iraq touches 3 of the 4...back injuries suck, it comes and goes, L5 is shifted and something with SI joint.  

Best.,

G


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## Zenjael (Jul 4, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Ok, I responded to the rest of this on the other thread you posted this response on. If unsure, see here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...list-and-The-Specialist&p=1500306#post1500306
> 
> I did manage to miss your take on the spike there however. Wow, really???? A punch comes in and you jam it with deadly ninjer precision using your elbow to "spike"? For the record, that has completely missed the point of what Cyriacus and I were referring to with the concept of a spike. It's a defensive barrier that's very very gross motor and primal i.e: covering your damn head against incoming punches, end of story. Using the spike to strike is very very very very very very (did I mention very?) gross motor and is used against the torso of your opponent to buy you some valuable space or a split second in order to move away and reassess, not break their fingers with it! I don't see how such a fine motor action would be the normative by any means. Where are you getting that from? I for one, don't like getting punched in the elbow thank you.



I concur. That is how the spike is normally applied, but it has other applications. To the concern of getting struck in the elbow... don't let them. the point is to use the flat of the underside of the point to control the top of their hand, and redirect it.

You could spike a direct punch, but it will require conditioning, and its difficult to do considering its a joint. Not impossible, but highly risky with hard conditioning.

I did not say you had to use my strategy, merely that, that option exists.


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 4, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I concur. That is how the spike is normally applied, but it has other applications. To the concern of getting struck in the elbow... don't let them. the point is to use the flat of the underside of the point to control the top of their hand, and redirect it.
> 
> You could spike a direct punch, but it will require conditioning, and its difficult to do considering its a joint. Not impossible, but highly risky with hard conditioning.
> 
> I did not say you had to use my strategy, merely that, that option exists.



Essentially, what I'm getting from this post is the lack of understanding of how a real punch works. A fist travels too fast to catch and even if you have superhuman speed, the target area is quite small. That's using a relatively wide, versatile area such as a palm and fingers never mind concentrating everything to a small point on the elbow (flat underside or otherwise). 

Spiking a direct punch is kinda what Cyriacus and I went off on our own little tangent about; it relies on the opponent punching your elbow or you having the presence of mind/speed/skill to throw an elbow up on exactly the right vector to intercept the incoming punch. Sure the planets might align and your elbow will meet their first but it will be a fluke and not something you can repeat under any real adrenaline or speed. Personally, that means it's something I'm not going to rely on or consider a viable option.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jul 5, 2012)

It would be better if you post a video of this drill. It makes it easier for me to bring some sort of familiarity to the drill. I wonder if its a Koryu-Uchinadi drill.


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## Zenjael (Jul 6, 2012)

Supra Vijai said:


> Essentially, what I'm getting from this post is the lack of understanding of how a real punch works. A fist travels too fast to catch and even if you have superhuman speed, the target area is quite small. That's using a relatively wide, versatile area such as a palm and fingers never mind concentrating everything to a small point on the elbow (flat underside or otherwise).
> 
> Spiking a direct punch is kinda what Cyriacus and I went off on our own little tangent about; it relies on the opponent punching your elbow or you having the presence of mind/speed/skill to throw an elbow up on exactly the right vector to intercept the incoming punch. Sure the planets might align and your elbow will meet their first but it will be a fluke and not something you can repeat under any real adrenaline or speed. Personally, that means it's something I'm not going to rely on or consider a viable option.



The fist does not travel too quickly. You need to work on your reaction time, and speed. Just be faster, and react as quickly as you can.



> ure the planets might align and your elbow will meet their first but it  will be a fluke and not something you can repeat under any real  adrenaline or speed. Personally, that means it's something I'm not going  to rely on or consider a viable option.



Then I guess the planets align for me every time I spar. I've found this to be a techniques I employ about once a sparring session. Practice, repetion, and a very high degree of knowing how their telegraphing. I'm almost never caught by a surprise strike. Almost always I can tell where a punch will be. Look at my tags, they say it for me. If you are not where the strike lands, they cannot hurt you. I simply practiced, and learned how to figure out where their strike is coming from.

It isn't difficult, you merely watch their body language, and understand that based on how you are positioned, they will strike with what's vulnerable, based on that knowledge, you simply need to move from where they were intending to strike, once they begin to strike, and it is easy to place your spike right above where they had intended to hit, and then lower and retain control, or deflection.

You must use your reasoning that based upon where you were, is what they are trying to hit. But you'll need to be faster, leagues faster, than they are to pull that off. I happen to be so, naturally, because I am very small, and as I have done the arts my entire life, my physiology is adapted to utilize that speed efficiently. Just as a gymnasts body, or a horsebackriders, or even a swimmers will. It's wolff's law, and it's essential to understanding how to maximize your ability in martial arts, not only for conditioning.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 6, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> The fist does not travel too quickly. You need to work on your reaction time, and speed. Just be faster, and react as quickly as you can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nonsense on all counts.  The fastest punches travel at around 50kph.  That's 0.07 of a second to travel an arm's length.   A reaction time of less than a tenth of a second is considered a false start im the Olympic 100m sprint.  A punch is too fast to catch with a hand, nevermind an elbow.  By the time you can react, it has already hit you. 

The planets don't align for you every time you spar.   The only reason you are able to react is because the punch is too slow and you spar 8 feet from your opponent as we have seen in your video.  You're not 'leagues faster' than anyone, you're leagues further away. 

And for the record, Wolff's Law illustrates a principle relating to bone growth. It has nothing to do with speed.  You have no idea, but keep dreaming. 

I found the tone of your post to be patronising, and preachy.   Get over yourself. 





Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 6, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> The fist does not travel too quickly. You need to work on your reaction time, and speed. Just be faster, and react as quickly as you can.



Sure thing. Right after I work on my ability to stare down armed robberies. Reacting as quickly as you can when under real danger of harm (even if it perceived at a Dojo) means an adrenaline dump, an "oh sh#t" moment as described by one of my instructors and the flinch response to try get out of the way and quite simply save yourself from that harm. You can then move in and do what you need to after that initial response but it is highly doubtful you will be able to pull anything quite so fine motor when you truly believe you are going to die or be seriously injured. Simply having the calm and control to go directly into an incoming attack which is serious and committed is great in fantasy, not so much in reality. Striving to get there however is what training is all about - constant improvement and refinement - but that doesn't mean you'll ever reach the horizon, only that you took a few steps towards it. 



> Then I guess the planets align for me every time I spar. I've found this to be a techniques I employ about once a sparring session. Practice, repetion, and a very high degree of knowing *how their telegraphing*. I'm almost never caught by a surprise strike. Almost always I can tell where a punch will be. Look at my tags, they say it for me. If you are not where the strike lands, they cannot hurt you. I simply practiced, and learned how to figure out where their strike is coming from.
> 
> It isn't difficult, you merely watch their body language, and understand that based on how you are positioned, they will strike with what's vulnerable, based on that knowledge, you simply need to move from where they were intending to strike, once they begin to strike, and it is easy to place your spike right above where they had intended to hit, and then lower and retain control, or deflection.
> 
> You must use your reasoning that based upon where you were, is what they are trying to hit. But you'll need to be faster, leagues faster, than they are to pull that off. I happen to be so, naturally, because I am very small, and as I have done the arts my entire life, my physiology is adapted to utilize that speed efficiently. Just as a gymnasts body, or a horsebackriders, or even a swimmers will. It's wolff's law, and it's essential to understanding how to maximize your ability in martial arts, not only for conditioning.



So what happens when they don't telegraph? Almost never being hit might be great for tournaments, point fighting or practice in the Dojo but on the street all it can take sometimes is one hit you don't see coming for things to go way south very quickly. Learning to manipulate your opponent in order to dictate what they do is a valuable skill and I'm not about to dismiss that by any means. However, to simply say you watch and move away once begin to strike and then pull off a fine motor action is stretching it a bit. Further, given the above mentioned adrenaline, how many "moves" will it be before you can position your opponent exactly to use that or any other technique? If you are getting into a fight without the mindset of ending things as quickly as possible but rather, working on deflections and manipulating your opponent in order to get a particular jam to work then I'm afraid you aren't understanding actual violence. 

Look it's great that you have a small build and that you work on maximizing the potential that offers but no matter what, reaction will ALWAYS be slower than action. How can you react to something that hasn't happened? This clip was recently posted on another thread concerning weapons for self defense but it's a great example of how hard and fast an actual attack can (and most likely, will) be. 






If you honestly think you can defend well against that by relying on reading your opponent than I'm afraid we are on two very separate pages


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 6, 2012)

Dammit, gnarlie.  I have to seem left like I am agreeing with Zenjael to disagree with you. 

Look, man, blocking a punch with your elbow is pretty freaking easy. The elbow does not have to travel far at all to accomplish this, and is usually accompanied by footwork and body rotation. Not only is this possible... it's not even rare.

As for catching a punch... yes it CAN be done. It takes practice and is questionable on practicality at times. But it can be done, and it can be useful.

But Zenjael ... between the two, go with the elbow block. And never try and catch a grappler's punch... he may just let you.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 6, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I concur. That is how the spike is normally applied, but it has other applications. To the concern of getting struck in the elbow... don't let them. the point is to use the flat of the underside of the point to control the top of their hand, and redirect it.
> 
> You could spike a direct punch, but it will require conditioning, and its difficult to do considering its a joint. Not impossible, but highly risky with hard conditioning.
> 
> I did not say you had to use my strategy, merely that, that option exists.



The part of the elbow you would use to spike a punch doesn't really require much conditioning, if any. It is a lot more durable than a hand.

In fact, if you ever decide to practice this, start slow and make sure your partner gloves up, ideally with boxing gloves. This is for his protection more than yours.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Gnarlie (Jul 6, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Dammit, gnarlie.  I have to seem left like I am agreeing with Zenjael to disagree with you.
> 
> Look, man, blocking a punch with your elbow is pretty freaking easy. The elbow does not have to travel far at all to accomplish this, and is usually accompanied by footwork and body rotation. Not only is this possible... it's not even rare.
> 
> ...



I don't deny that a punch can be anticipated and guided onto the elbow with a block to the side of the arm, but I do question the practicality of having time to react, dodge a punch, and replace the target with your elbow in the time it takes to throw a punch at close range. 

PS you don't have to agree with either of us, there's a LOT of room in the middle. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## jks9199 (Jul 6, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> I don't deny that a punch can be anticipated and guided onto the elbow with a block to the side of the arm, but I do question the practicality of having time to react, dodge a punch, and replace the target with your elbow in the time it takes to throw a punch at close range.
> 
> PS you don't have to agree with either of us, there's a LOT of room in the middle.
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2



Done as you describe -- I agree, success is unlikely.  But if you recognize a punch is coming, say at your jaw, and you simply evade and allow your elbow to replace your jaw, it becomes much more doable.  (Note, please, I did not say easy!)


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 6, 2012)

> > Originally Posted by Josh Oakley&lt;br /&gt;
> > Dammit, gnarlie.  I have to seem left like I am agreeing with Zenjael to disagree with you. &lt;br /&gt;
> > &lt;br /&gt;
> > Look, man, blocking a punch with your elbow is pretty freaking easy. The elbow does not have to travel far at all to accomplish this, and is usually accompanied by footwork and body rotation. Not only is this possible... it's not even rare.&lt;br /&gt;
> ...



Define close range. Clinch range? If you block it is mostly with elbows anyway. Punch range? If your guard is up it is quicker than a traditional block for a straight line punch. And i don't hit the side of the arm. I hit the fist. And honestly, its not even a rare skill. 

Circular punch to the head? Okay, then it is unfeasible.
Uppercut? Questionable. 

But straight line... not as hard as you think. Give it a try.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 6, 2012)

You won't always get your body off the line in time, true. But the elbow only has to travel about three to six inches to pull it off. It is best for punches to your chest or gut. If they're throwing at your head, use checks.

This is of course with your guard up.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Gnarlie (Jul 7, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Define close range. Clinch range? If you block it is mostly with elbows anyway. Punch range? If your guard is up it is quicker than a traditional block for a straight line punch. And i don't hit the side of the arm. I hit the fist. And honestly, its not even a rare skill.
> 
> Circular punch to the head? Okay, then it is unfeasible.
> Uppercut? Questionable.
> ...



By close I mean punching range, but are you and Zenjael describing the same thing?  Guarding the body against body shots by rotating the body and moving the elbows 2 or 3 inches from their resting position in guard such that incoming strikes meet the front of the forearm near the point of the elbow is certainly feasible.  I understand this is what you mean, do I understand correctly? 

Dropping the spike of the elbow onto the top of a punching hand is something else.  That's what I understand he means - slip offline, replace the target with the slightly raised elbow, and drop it onto the top of the hand in motion to redirect it (although I'm not sure what he's redirecting away from when he's moved offline anyway).  All in the time it takes to punch.  Sounds like fantasy to me, and with such a short motion path onto the top of the hand there's no power there anyway.  Any power from the opponent is negated by aiming for the top of the hand, as the elbow has to come out of the line of the punch to do that. 

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## Josh Oakley (Jul 7, 2012)

Oh. Well if he's talking like that... yeah, that is unfeasible, unless you are dealing with the attacker who does a step-through punch and holds it there politely.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Supra Vijai (Jul 7, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Oh. Well if he's talking like that... yeah, that is unfeasible, unless you are dealing with the attacker who does a step-through punch and holds it there politely.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Yeah, pretty much mate. Realism is sorely lacking in that situation which is what Gnarlie, Cyriacus and I all had issues with. As you say and Gnarlie describes however, it's much more gross motor which translates as being much more reliable under pressure against an attacker who isn't so polite


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Oh. Well if he's talking like that... yeah, that is unfeasible, unless you are dealing with the attacker who does a step-through punch and holds it there politely.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



As happens in poor training! Gives people a false impression of what they can do in a real situation.


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## Zenjael (Jul 8, 2012)

> By close I mean punching range, but are you and Zenjael describing the  same thing?  Guarding the body against body shots by rotating the body  and moving the elbows 2 or 3 inches from their resting position in guard  such that incoming strikes meet the front of the forearm near the point  of the elbow is certainly feasible.  I understand this is what you  mean, do I understand correctly?



We both are speaking of this.



> Dropping the spike of the elbow onto the top of a punching hand is  something else.  That's what I understand he means - slip offline,  replace the target with the slightly raised elbow, and drop it onto the  top of the hand in motion to redirect it (although I'm not sure what  he's redirecting away from when he's moved offline anyway).  All in the  time it takes to punch.  Sounds like fantasy to me, and with such a  short motion path onto the top of the hand there's no power there  anyway.  Any power from the opponent is negated by aiming for the top of  the hand, as the elbow has to come out of the line of the punch to do  that.



If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then. What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you. I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary. I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike. In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch. 

I have only ever retained control of a hand completely with the elbow 3 times. And that was moreso because they opted to try to grapple and push (why one would do that with a failed punch is beyond me, but I suppose we all make mistakes). It's just so much more economic to pull the hand back, and simultaneously strike with the other. No matter how good you are with a spike, or generating energy, or redirecting, there is NOTHING to hold the hand in control with the elbow save whatever energy you have generated to redirect theirs.

Think of it as if the elbow were batting the hand away. If they are a trained fighter, and loose, you may actually end up breaking their fingers, as Josh Oakley pointed out.


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm not trying to be a dick, but... can you say that again in English? I recognize all the words, but in combination, it makes little sense. The last two sentences I get. 

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## K-man (Jul 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then. What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you. I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary. I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike. In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.


Please, could you rewrite this paragraph in plain English so us non-US guys can comprehend what you are trying to say?       :idunno:


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 8, 2012)

Oh good. I am not the only one.

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## K-man (Jul 8, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Oh good. I am not the only one.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


Mate it might be the weather. I'm up at Coral Bay enjoying the best WA has to offer.


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## K-man (Jul 8, 2012)

Just realised, your WA is a few miles away from our WA.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 8, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then. What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you. I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary. I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike. In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.


If they are doing a crushing energy strike its feasible. I more meant that the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from You.
I usually do it with my lead arm, c...

I give up.
:lurk:


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## Josh Oakley (Jul 8, 2012)

K-man said:


> Just realised, your WA is a few miles away from our WA.



How long you in town for?

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## Tez3 (Jul 9, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> I'm not trying to be a dick, but... can you say that again in English? I recognize all the words, but in combination, it makes little sense. The last two sentences I get.
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



No I don't understand it either! So that's three of us from different continents!


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## Gnarlie (Jul 9, 2012)

Right, I've been speaking bad English with Germans and Russians all week, so I reckon I can crack this code.... 



Zenjael said:


> We both are speaking of this.


 
That's not what you described in your earlier post. 



Zenjael said:


> If they are doing a crushing energy type of strike, its feasible, then.



What are you talking about?  It's either a strike or it isn't.  You do like to overcomplicate things for yourself, don't you? 



Zenjael said:


> What I mean it moreso as, is the elbow essentially torques the hand in a different direction, preferably away from you.



Do you even understand what torque is?  A turning moment, measured in Newtonmetres.   It is in no way applicable to the effect an elbow can have on a travelling fist.  A gooseneck wristlock sure, but not here.  Did you hear someone else using it and think it sounded cool or what?   Stick to plain english words that you know the meaning of. 



Zenjael said:


> I generally perform it with the lead arm coming out as an elbown, and rotating the blow so my elbow also travels inward; this allow then to execute a centerline strike from the defense, if necessary.



You do actually speak english, yeah?  I think I understand what you are trying to say, but what you are describing is basically the same as any boxing block, check or upper body defence.   Nothing special, not really any kind of strike, and certainly nothing like your earlier description. 



Zenjael said:


> I suspect you may be forgetting as well, if you are adept enough, the contact with their strike should allow one to rechannel a degree of their force behind your own strike.



I suspect that you may not have read my post properly.  One of my criticisms of your described method was that because you move your elbow out of the line of travel of the fist, you fail to capitalise on the motion of the opponent.   Do pay attention 007.



Zenjael said:


> In essence, the redirection requires contact, and the contact with a pivot inward should allow one with proper footwork to execute a strike that should be adequate in power to a normally execute punch.



If you meet the strike head on, sure.  But you're describing a strike to the top of the hand as it passes.  As the punch in motion is carrying mainly forward momentum, a strike to the top or side of it will transfer minimal energy, and most of that transferred will go into redirection, as both masses (your arm and their arm) are roughly the same and carry the same inertia.  It's not going to hurt.

For better energy transfer one would need to meet the fist head on, or restrict the motion of the arm struck.  Otherwise you get a nice Newton's cradle effect.  Your arm stops, with its kinetic energy transferred into kinetic energy in their arm.  If both objects are not restricted, ideal (most painful) energy transfer comes from contact between objects of different inertia.



Zenjael said:


> I have only ever retained control of a hand completely with the elbow 3 times. And that was moreso because they opted to try to grapple and push (why one would do that with a failed punch is beyond me, but I suppose we all make mistakes). It's just so much more economic to pull the hand back, and simultaneously strike with the other. No matter how good you are with a spike, or generating energy, or redirecting, there is NOTHING to hold the hand in control with the elbow save whatever energy you have generated to redirect theirs.
> 
> Think of it as if the elbow were batting the hand away. If they are a trained fighter, and loose, you may actually end up breaking their fingers, as Josh Oakley pointed out.



Nobody mentioned retaining control of the punch, so I'm not sure why you threw this in.   It's not relevant.  And you're not breaking anyone's fingers with an elbow to the top of the hand in motion.  You would have to meet it head on as Josh described, and even then it's more "here, have an elbow to punch" than a full blown strike. 

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## Cyriacus (Jul 9, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> You do like to overcomplicate things for yourself, don't you?



Like Ive said before


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## K-man (Jul 9, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> How long you in town for?


I'm not. I didn't realise until after I pushed the button that your WA is Washington State and our WA is Western Australia. I'm holidaying in our WA swimming with whale sharks and manta rays and playing with dolphins. How cool is that?


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## Zenjael (Jul 9, 2012)

> That's not what you described in your earlier post.



My apologies. You yourself began the response acknowledging my inadequacy with words. My apologies for not conveying it properly, as I meant it. Others have done so better, what Josh is speaking of, is what I am speaking of.



> What are you talking about?  It's either a strike or it isn't.  You do like to overcomplicate things for yourself, don't you?



I classify things as they are. A strike is a strike, just as a gun is a gun, and a katana and Gim are swords... but they require different technique. Even you must see that the variance in techniques, in relation to how to counter them, is relative to the technique used. I.E., not every trick will work on the same thing, because not all things are different.

May there be mercy on you if you are used to crushing strikes and then go up against someone who has mastered transference type strikes. The kind where they hit you in your stomach, and given your angle, you're liable to feel in your shoulder or back.





> I suspect that you may not have read my post properly.  One of my criticisms of your described method was that because you move your elbow out of the line of travel of the fist, you fail to capitalise on the motion of the opponent.   Do pay attention 007.



then I suggest you look closely also. The amount of motion you actually move your elbow out of the strikes path is neglible. We are literally talking about two points about 6 inches apart, on above their fist's trajectory, and one below, where you move you arm's elbow point from point A, to point B, or point B to point A. It should by maybe a 4th of an inch leave the line of fire, and even when does, it is moving, building momentum so that when it connects, you can move their arm. You do NOT need a lot of torque to redirect a flow of force which is a straight line. Do this: make a spike, with it pointing toward your opponent, but level with the top of your sternum. Now lower your elbow's point in an arc to the bottom of your solar plexus. That's about all you need. For higher aimed strikes, you will need a larger radius to deflect/redirect, but even then, whether carrying the motion downward or upward, it is a perfect setup for a follow up strike with the arm you just used to deflect. It's be a waste not to, I say.

When you move your elbow point inward, and downward, you are setting yourself up almost perfectly, at least with your arms, for a vertical punch executed through the midline, as opposed to over it as many people tend to do. You move your elbow with their fist, not before or after, save to place it to move the fist. I just described in the post you quote that to generate further force you WANT to capitalize on their motion, as you put it.

Not sure why you're at contention. Sorry if I badly worded things, I'll simplify it. Punch comes at say solar plexus, spike elbow, then use momentum to redirect their blow, and strike with same arm using to defend. It is a simple deflection, but its different than using your forearm, or hand, since you are using your elbow. Few boxers do this, unless you're referring to when they tighten their guard, which just looks like they're doing a spike. Might do the same thing, one is an identifiable move though, as opposed to a reaction, or preference of body positioning.

If you are still having trouble with what I wrote, re-read what Josh did, he is talking about the same thing I am. 



If you meet the strike head on, sure.  But you're describing a strike to the top of the hand as it passes.  As the punch in motion is carrying mainly forward momentum, a strike to the top or side of it will transfer minimal energy, and most of that transferred will go into redirection, as both masses (your arm and their arm) are roughly the same and carry the same inertia.  It's not going to hurt.

For better energy transfer one would need to meet the fist head on, or restrict the motion of the arm struck.  Otherwise you get a nice Newton's cradle effect.  Your arm stops, with its kinetic energy transferred into kinetic energy in their arm.  If both objects are not restricted, ideal (most painful) energy transfer comes from contact between objects of different inertia.



Nobody mentioned retaining control of the punch, so I'm not sure why you threw this in.   It's not relevant.  And you're not breaking anyone's fingers with an elbow to the top of the hand in motion.  You would have to meet it head on as Josh described, and even then it's more "here, have an elbow to punch" than a full blown strike.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 10, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> My apologies. You yourself began the response acknowledging my inadequacy with words. My apologies for not conveying it properly, as I meant it. Others have done so better, what Josh is speaking of, is what I am speaking of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So what you are now describing is only a deflection.  You've changed it. How exactly is that going to break someone's fingers again? 

In my view, if deflection is all you are achieving, there are other, higher percentage options to achieve the same result, and which leave less vulnerability.  Palm blocks or forearm checks, for example.

A strike is a strike is a strike as far as the techniques that address them go.   Are you telling me that you assess a strike in motion, and decide whether it has 'crushing' or 'transference' energy and adjust your response technique based on that assessment?   Sounds like BS to me. 

If your defensive strategy is based on individual techniques, and the techniques you use aren't universally effective, then you're doomed to failure.

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## Josh Oakley (Jul 10, 2012)

No it's not just a deflection... this time he is mostly not wrong. He just sucks at explaining things. Zen, how many times have I told you? Less is more.

So the basic concept is: you can meet the punch at a slight angle, or head on. If it has a slight angle, it will deflect. If the punch hits head on, it has a chance to break a finger... maybe fracture a knuckle. The latter is less likely. The the knuckle has the backup mass of the bones behind it, if the punch is thrown right, so it may not fracture. But it will hurt the guy's fist a lot. 

But if you meet one of the fingers with your elbow... big bone meet little bone. If the fist isn't totally clenched, you can break a finger. It's not like it will happen every time, but even if it doesn't,  that finger will be in a lot of pain and make it much less fun for the attacker to punch with that hand. 

As for the one he's talking about with the elbow moving downward, you can use it on a guy throwing an uppercut if the guy is trying to throw it from just a bit too far away from you. I actually used it on someone who for some reason decided that a rising front instep kick to the face was a good idea. And then felt really bad as they were limping for the rest of the class.

As far as using it for a straight punch, I don't like it, as for the most part, you are redirecting a punch downward and into you. Zen, if it is working for you, likely your partners aren't committing to their strikes enough to where you would see this as a problem... which from what i remember is likely. 

As far as using the elbow against a straight punch to the throat or head (Zenjael, this is mostly for you)... don't.  It leaves your ribs wide open, and presents a fantastic opportunity for a kicker to get you. In fact, a basic sparring combo is to purposely straight punch at the head, then if they use a traditional high block or their elbow, roundhouse kick to the ribs.

So don't. Just check with your hands, or better yet, slip the punch and drill the guy.

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## Josh Oakley (Jul 10, 2012)

And gnarlie.. are you suggesting that blocking with your palm or forearm is going to leave you LESS velnurable than moving your elbow. 2-6"?

Or am I reading you wrong. Do you mean palm blocks for the head level and forearm blocks for the chest level? 

Better question: what guard are using? Classical or "boxer's"? Zen from what i understand is talking about from a "boxer" guard. I would for the most part use this concept from a boxer guard,  though I keep my elbows closer in than most boxers I have seen do.

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## Gnarlie (Jul 10, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> And gnarlie.. are you suggesting that blocking with your palm or forearm is going to leave you LESS velnurable than moving your elbow. 2-6"?
> 
> Or am I reading you wrong. Do you mean palm blocks for the head level and forearm blocks for the chest level?
> 
> ...



Thank you Josh.  I understand your explanation, but I think Zenjael was originally describing something else.  Admittedly it's hard to cut through the dross and squeeze the real sense out of his posts.  Zenjael, I wish you could just stay on track and remove the fluff.  I'm sure there's some great discussion there somewhere, but it's too labour intensive to make it rewarding at the moment. 

I meant palm blocks for head level, forearms (and elbows, but mostly coincidentally) for body.  I was responding to Zenjael's suggestion that this elbow thing might work for straights to the face, or should start at the level of the top of the sternum.  Risky in my book, lovely open ribs. 

I use mostly boxers guard, covering the head, and relying on footwork and forearms combined for the body.  Ends up as a sort of high-low hybrid a lot of the time, but the default position is arms up. 

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## Zenjael (Jul 10, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> No it's not just a deflection... this time he is mostly not wrong. He just sucks at explaining things. Zen, how many times have I told you? Less is more.



I know, I know. I'm trying though.



> So the basic concept is: you can meet the punch at a slight angle, or head on. If it has a slight angle, it will deflect. If the punch hits head on, it has a chance to break a finger... maybe fracture a knuckle. The latter is less likely. The the knuckle has the backup mass of the bones behind it, if the punch is thrown right, so it may not fracture. But it will hurt the guy's fist a lot.
> 
> But if you meet one of the fingers with your elbow... big bone meet little bone. If the fist isn't totally clenched, you can break a finger. It's not like it will happen every time, but even if it doesn't,  that finger will be in a lot of pain and make it much less fun for the attacker to punch with that hand.
> 
> As for the one he's talking about with the elbow moving downward, you can use it on a guy throwing an uppercut if the guy is trying to throw it from just a bit too far away from you. I actually used it on someone who for some reason decided that a rising front instep kick to the face was a good idea. And then felt really bad as they were limping for the rest of the class.



I cannot say it better. Thank you for being so concise in explaining it.



> As far as using it for a straight punch, I don't like it, as for the most part, you are redirecting a punch downward and into you. Zen, if it is working for you, likely your partners aren't committing to their strikes enough to where you would see this as a problem... which from what i remember is likely.



In some instances this is probably the case. I mostly have small size (smaller surface area) and greater speed over people I go up against. Without that edge though, I concur, it is a strategy which carries high risk, especially when its utilized to try to control the hand, or deflect the punch.



> As far as using the elbow against a straight punch to the throat or head (Zenjael, this is mostly for you)... don't.  It leaves your ribs wide open, and presents a fantastic opportunity for a kicker to get you. In fact, a basic sparring combo is to purposely straight punch at the head, then if they use a traditional high block or their elbow, roundhouse kick to the ribs.



I have noticed this. I took a... unorthodox route to address that vulnerability. It is difficult to describe without a video clip, but if you look at the one of you tube, you've notice how often I'll do what I call arm rotation. I do it by choice normally, and it's either to generate power, balance, or momentum through my arms. When raising the spike I would, most likely (if not sticking with just Krav Maga) lower the back defending arm toward the hip. It's enough to ward the ribs and still have space to block a strike to the now more vulnerable space you've moved the hand from.

But... I also favor a knee in conjunction with the spike if it's necessary to defend the ribs. I've found one can normally tell when a spike will or will not work; I can think of a number of times I've used it in a match where I never had the opportunity to actually deflect a strike, but it still worked very effectively as a ward when timed properly. 

I suppose if I executed the spike, and it was a wasted technique I would try to salvage the wasted flow of momentum and attempt a kick to whatever limb had either been extended and I missed, or was being retracted. Luckily 18 years of WTF TKD snap-kicking also gives speed towards ones legs. Especially when short. Sometimes it's a curse; but when it comes to martial arts, I've noticed they seem tailored to smaller people. Oh Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, I was taught is really only executable by people 175+ pounds, or over 6 ft. I can do the mountain stomps, but it's undeniable that what I do is not the same as what I could if I had another... hmmm, 65 pounds.



> So don't. Just check with your hands, or better yet, slip the punch and drill the guy.



I agree. But I feel in a real situation, or serious struggle in a match, that against someone who is of comparable skill or legitimate threat I would not just throw the spike, and reset. I'd throw the spike, and whatever opportunity is presented from its utilization I'll take advantage of, as I see it.

I mean, practice is what is for experimentation. Sure, I agree with everyone that knife disarms are better done with the arms than with your feet (through kicks... movies) but that doesn't change that learning how to do it, and the theory behind it, might not in itself be practical toward other applications in martial arts. 

I'd never do a 720 kick in legitimate combat- but I don't mind if the person has given me the degree of control to allow me to execute it on them while we're just sparring. I think any real martial artist has won their fair share or tournaments, and lost. They have reffed, and judged, and have come to realize that those competitions are for the young, and prideful, and that what really matters is how the art can guarantee one's survival while keeping the art itself intact while being used.

That's partially how I see it, hence why I'm willing to experiment with risky, even untrustworthy techniques. I might get hurt for it, but at least I learned my lesson, neh?

And I am speaking of a boxer guard. I favor that when I realize I'm against someone who will allow no room for err. It's... I suppose the best for when preferring attack. Kinda makes sense now that I think about it, even the earliest boxing, Pankreation apparently favored the stance we know as 'fighting'. Mayhap that security it offers is why it appears across so many styles? I delineate though.

To Gnarlie: I'd say it's risky, but while I feel silly writing it, what feels normal to me in executing techniques, is of a speed that is beyond most people. I rely on this, and I suppose it is a crutch, but I feel that perfect technique can offer equatable destructive power as a sloppily thrown but full force thrown technique, and if with sufficient speed most of the time people do the work to themself, and hurt themselves off the deflections. I aim for efficiency as well, and targets which are debillatating.

I work in a donut shop part time, and we get flies, especially as I live in Northern VA and its summer, and I practically live in what's a paved over swamp. For practice I enjoy catching and releasing them, repeating. This isn't to say that I'm some kind of zomg-epi awesome martial artist; lots of people in my family can do it, it's in part why we're so good with firearms, though I suspect traces of redneck in the blood may have added to that. The point is that I rely on that kind of reaction time and speed in sparring, which to a degree cancels out the risk; because I can read people, and react to what they intend to do, oft before they even know they are going to do it, I can also time what is necessary as a counter, as they execute their techniques. I.E, if I use the spike, it will be when appropriate, and in addition, to inflict damage, and set up for a follow up from either arm... usually. Theory. Theory. Theory. It doesn't always work out. We know this about every technique.

Sorry for the fluff, this thread has me particularly excited today. Somebody who normally disagrees with me, actually agreed for once. That's a nice feeling ^_^.


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## Gnarlie (Jul 10, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I suppose if I executed the spike, and it was a wasted technique I would try to salvage the wasted flow of momentum and attempt a kick to whatever limb had either been extended and I missed, or was being retracted. Luckily 18 years of WTF TKD snap-kicking also gives speed towards ones legs. Especially when short. Sometimes it's a curse; but when it comes to martial arts, I've noticed they seem tailored to smaller people. Oh Do Kwan Tae Kwon Do, I was taught is really only executable by people 175+ pounds, or over 6 ft. I can do the mountain stomps, but it's undeniable that what I do is not the same as what I could if I had another... hmmm, 65 pounds.
> 
> I mean, practice is what is for experimentation. Sure, I agree with everyone that knife disarms are better done with the arms than with your feet (through kicks... movies) but that doesn't change that learning how to do it, and the theory behind it, might not in itself be practical toward other applications in martial arts.
> 
> ...



I question the relevance of the above to the discussion. And the incorrect use of 'delineate'.   Look it up dude, the word you want is 'digress':

de·lin·e·ate /di&#712;lin&#275;&#716;&#257;t/Verb: 1. Describe or portray (something) precisely. 2. Indicate the exact position of (a border or boundary).



Zenjael said:


> To Gnarlie: I'd say it's risky, but while I feel silly writing it, what feels normal to me in executing techniques, is of a speed that is beyond most people. I rely on this, and I suppose it is a crutch, but I feel that perfect technique can offer equatable destructive power as a sloppily thrown but full force thrown technique, and if with sufficient speed most of the time people do the work to themself, and hurt themselves off the deflections. I aim for efficiency as well, and targets which are debillatating.
> 
> I work in a donut shop part time, and we get flies, especially as I live in Northern VA and its summer, and I practically live in what's a paved over swamp. For practice I enjoy catching and releasing them, repeating. This isn't to say that I'm some kind of zomg-epi awesome martial artist; lots of people in my family can do it, it's in part why we're so good with firearms, though I suspect traces of redneck in the blood may have added to that. The point is that I rely on that kind of reaction time and speed in sparring, which to a degree cancels out the risk; because I can read people, and react to what they intend to do, oft before they even know they are going to do it, I can also time what is necessary as a counter, as they execute their techniques. I.E, if I use the spike, it will be when appropriate, and in addition, to inflict damage, and set up for a follow up from either arm... usually. Theory. Theory. Theory. It doesn't always work out. We know this about every technique.
> 
> Sorry for the fluff, this thread has me particularly excited today. Somebody who normally disagrees with me, actually agreed for once. That's a nice feeling ^_^.



Good god man if you keep blowing your own trumpet like that you'll go blind or develop hairy palms. 

If you believe your own propaganda, you're headed for a fall. 

PS the fly thing was from the frickin moon - again, where's the relevance to the discussion?

Fluff fluff fluff - your response to me can be stated as follows:

"I am small and fast.  I know what people are going to do before they do'.  I like to be efficient."

So, I call BS on the mind reading.   We can all read people, it's what we do.  And the other 2 points weren't relevant to my post either.  Fluff! 


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## Tez3 (Jul 10, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I know, I know. I'm trying though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'd be careful with girlfriends if you get that easily excited....


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## Cirdan (Jul 10, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> I work in a donut shop part time, and we get flies, especially as I live in Northern VA and its summer, and I practically live in what's a paved over swamp. For practice I enjoy catching and releasing them, repeating. This isn't to say that I'm some kind of zomg-epi awesome martial artist; lots of people in my family can do it, it's in part why we're so good with firearms, though I suspect traces of redneck in the blood may have added to that. The point is that I rely on that kind of reaction time and speed in sparring, which to a degree cancels out the risk; because I can read people, and react to what they intend to do, oft before they even know they are going to do it, I can also time what is necessary as a counter, as they execute their techniques. I.E, if I use the spike, it will be when appropriate, and in addition, to inflict damage, and set up for a follow up from either arm... usually. Theory. Theory. Theory. It doesn't always work out. We know this about every technique.



Have you tried catching the flies with your mouth yet? That is real skill mate. I can`t do it, but I am sure one of your speed intuition and distinguished background will have no problem trapping several at the same time.


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## Zenjael (Jul 10, 2012)

And back to the OP... it was nice civilly discussing with you Gnarlie while it lasted.


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## elder999 (Jul 10, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Hello, I haven't posted in awhile, but I am hoping someone may be able to offer me insight.
> 
> Thank you to whoever can point me in the right direction.



No problem, Alex.I recognize what your talking about-this technique came down from _Wow-tu Pow Gai Po-kre_ in China, to_ Shamar-ryu Aikijujutsu, _on the island of Guam,   all the way to New York, where it became part of the repertoire of 
_Yuchi vetur ki _.

It's called "The Quart of Blood Technique:





:lfao:


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## Gnarlie (Jul 10, 2012)

elder999 said:


> No problem, Alex.I recognize what your talking about-this technique came down from _Wow-tu Pow Gai Po-kre_ in China, to_ Shamar-ryu Aikijujutsu, _on the island of Guam,   all the way to New York, where it became part of the repertoire of
> _Yuchi vetur ki _.
> 
> It's called "The Quart of Blood Technique:
> ...



Awww dammit now I have to watch the whole thing.  Alex, I hope you're maintaining a sense of humour here.... 

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## Tez3 (Jul 10, 2012)

Cirdan said:


> Have you tried catching the flies with your mouth yet? That is real skill mate. I can`t do it, but I am sure one of your speed intuition and distinguished background will have no problem trapping several at the same time.




:viking1:artyon:artyon:


Pleased you're back and telling it like it is!!


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## Gnarlie (Jul 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> How does one retract a limb? Is it like a tortoise going into it's shell?



Go go gadget legs! 

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## Cirdan (Jul 10, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> :viking1:artyon:artyon:
> 
> 
> Pleased you're back and telling it like it is!!





Glad to see you again Tez


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## GaryR (Jul 30, 2012)

K-Man,

Sorry for the delay, I will respond to your last posts in installments due to the volumination   & broad nature of the discussion. 

The first issues I want to address is your fallacious ideas regarding fajing (in part), and torque--which you incorrectly say is not involved.  




K-man said:


> Well Gary that's it from me.  You might gather I'm getting sick of your personal attacks. Perhaps if you approach this forum as an equal, people might feel better towards you.    :asian:



I'm sorry if you feel attacked, that was not my intent, I am trying to have an objective, and productive conversation, it was others who brought in my business and made things more personal.  

A lot of context is is when someone uses a one way medium.  I will try and be sure to not be offensive to anyone, my apologies.  

However, there are several explicit claims that are simply untrue and inaccurate.  As time permits I will address them, and keep it objective, if you don't appreciate it fine, perhaps other readers will be more wise. 





K-man said:


> And if you follow Erle's teaching, fajing is  delivered with a shaking motion from the core, like a dog shaking off  water. There is no torque involved. The power is generated by a relaxed  body that explodes from your centre, not from the root.







K-man said:


> Interesting that  this concept is exactly the same as is practised by Goju practitioners  with Jundokan background.



I agree with you in part, no doubt your method sounds sufficiently effective.  However, your idea of no torque being involved is simply flawed.  Its in fact very much about torque, what do you think the waist is doing when its shaking back and forth?  The power is rooted in the waist, sending the momentum from your waist down is not only a waist of power as it disperses into ground and back--it takes more time.  Moreover, the waist and back etc. cannot generate the same momentum as the legs pushing up first.  

"Conservation of energy and momentum basically tell you that the power  you generate in a punch, should be directly proportional with the amount  your legs and body push off the earth, if you do it right.

The  law of inertia encourages you to not get in the way of an opponent's  momentum, but to step aside and guide it in the same direction they  already started with.  Also it encourages deflection of blows instead of  directly getting in the way.

The concept of centripetal  motion/acceleration is the same thing, in that if you grab someone's  punch as they come to you, it is much easier to guide it in a circular  arc just by "pulling inward", than it would be to knock it aside." (_Nianfong, http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15028,_ )

Thus your using the waist for power, (as well as control and rotational force--which is good)

More ..., first part more technical..

*"Rotational Mechanics*
First,  one should understand that any object in space has 6 degrees of  freedom.  3 of these are cartesian translation (eg, the X, Y, and Z  axes).  The other 3 are rotations about those cartesian axes.  The  preceding laws of mechanics have applied (for the most part) to  cartesian translation, but only partially apply to rotational motion of  objects.  

Rotational Mechanics are mechanics involving rotation  of a body.  This is different from centripetal forces are sometimes  external forces applying to a body moving in a circular path, whereas  rotational mechanics involve rotation of the bodies themselves.

Fundamentally,  rotational mechanics uses polar coordinates to describe rotation.  If  you imagine a point in the XY plane, modeled in cartesian coordinates as  X = 1, Y=1, or (1,1), that same point can also be modeled using polar  coordinates as R=Sqrt(2), Theta = Pi/4 = 45 degrees (Sqrt(2), Pi/4).   Using trig the R of the point can be derived using the pythagorean  theorem as X^2+Y^2=R^2, which solves to R=Sqrt(2).  Pi/4 is in radians,  which is another way to describe angles, in that one circumference is  2*pi*R, so we let 360 degrees = 2*pi so that the integral works out to  2*pi*R (just trust me on this).

OK, you probably don't actually need to know all that, but it will help you understand where the following formulae come from:

Moment  of Inertia:  I = m * R^2.  This is a scalar quantity, and is the  rotational inertia of a point mass rotating around a stationary point  one R away.  m = mass.
Angular Displacement = theta = omega.  In  radians, this is the angle change of a point.  It is a vector, using the  right-hand rule to dictate direction of the vector.
Arc Displacement  = R x theta.  where theta is in radians.  This is simply the distance  drawn by an arc of radius R, over an angle theta.  In general, all  angular distances/velocities/accelerations become "linear" (arc)  displacements/velocities/accelerations, when you cross them with the  radius vector.  
Angular velocity = theta' = nu (the greek letter).   This is the derivative dtheta/dt, and is the rate of change of the  angular displacement w.r.t. time.
Angular acceleration = theta'' =  alpha (the greek letter).  This is the second derivative, d^2theta/dt^2,  and is the rate of change of the angular velocity w.r.t. time.
Angular momentum:  L = R x P = I * omega.  for an unchanging mass, I becomes a scalar quantity.

With  these formulae, you can now extend all of the fundamental laws of  physics from Chapter 1 into the angular/rotational (Polar coordinate)  realm.

*Newton's Law of Inertia (Rotational)*
A  body in rotation stays in rotation.  In other words, a body rotating at  a constant speed will continue to rotate at that speed until an  external force is applied.

*Newton's 2nd Law (Rotational) Defining Torque*
T  = dL/dt = I x alpha (when the moment of inertia is constant) = alpha  dI/dt + I dnu/dt (if both moment of inertia and velocity are changing)
Torque/Moment  is the derivative of Angular momentum w.r.t. time.  Remember, because  moment of inertia is related to the distance of the rotating body's  center of mass to the center of rotation, and also the moment of inertia  of the body spinning in one of its own "internal axes", the moment of  inertia will often change over time.  

*Newton's 3rd Law (Rotational) the Law of Action-Reaction.*
This is very much the same as the linear one, but just applying to rotational motion instead.

*Conservation of Angular Momentum*
The net angular momentum of a system will always stay constant.  

Imagine  an ice skater spinning with extended leg, then pulling the leg inward.   Her moment of inertia becomes smaller, when her leg pulls in, but her  angular momentum must remain constant, so she spins faster.

We  use this same concept in shuaijiao, when we spin/coil before throws.  We  spin with leg extended and then pull the leg inward to turn faster.   The intention is for your main torso to turn faster, so you do it this  way.  

The concept is used for kicks through the "chamber" in an  opposite manner.  You lift your leg with knee bent because the moment of  inertia is smaller (easier to lift), so you can chamber your kick  quicker.  Then you snap your lower leg out as you near the target,  slowing down your rotation, but also increasing your moment of inertia  to increase the penetration power of your kick.  This is also why a muay  thai roundhouse is more powerful than a TKD roundhouse.  The TKD  roundhouse goes through the chamber, so has more speed because it is  more efficient to get the leg out at full extension, but at the end of  the acceleration, has less total angular momentum.  However the Muay  Thai roundhouse does not go through the chamber, so your hip motion  continuously adds angular momentum to your kicking leg.  This is also  why their kicks are slower than TKD kicks.

Conservation of angular momentum is also responsible for precession and gyroscopic effects.  (to be continued)" (Nianfong @ http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=15049)

Perhaps, that clears things up.  I agree that it motion is somewhat akin to a dog shaking off water, and that everthing should be relaxed, facts simply disprove your idea that no torque is involved.  Unless there is some imaginary magical force generated by the waist over the legs, you are wrong. 



Additionally, I'll comment on this:



K-man said:


> ... Perhaps if you approach this forum as an  equal, people might feel better towards you.    :asian:



No offense, but not all on the forum are equal.  This is impossible.  So it stands to reason not all voices are equal, experience, method, methanics, evolution all mater.   

If we were all in a room together playing around it would be readily apparent who is who.  At that point, who are you going to listen too?  It's frustrating to be the guy in the room saying, WTF are you people doing, try that on me, and very likely I won't even need to hurt you to demonstrate.  Learn it pull it off, then you will have some credibility to approach someone as an equal.  

From what I've seen I could give some good corrections to the head of your current style--Taira (or at least a highranking figure head).  There is nothing I have seen the man do that I could not mimick and pull off to the same degree or better in a combative and biomechanical context.  I can demo with to videos, and give specifics over time if you like.  

Thus, I can only conclude that your style is not equal or "Exacly like" the fajing and mechanics in Neijia.  In fact judging by the people in the background of those clips, it is far from.  You might by more personally successful by the integration, and subjectively think things are inherent in your Karate, but your lack of understanding of physics and biomechanics keep you from progressing, and peaking closer to the higher level Neijia folks, which methods you have abandoned for those whicy will mal-train you.  

Get back to me on torque though, I'm awaiting the explaination for your comment. :bangahead:

Best,

Gary

Edit: I have about a ten year old video that demonstrates the movement from the ground, and the shake a bit, particularly the movement (http://www.flowingcombat.net/freelesson/movement1.php) and method 1 (http://www.flowingcombat.net/freelesson/method1.php)--sections seems more pertinent to this discussion. 

http://www.flowingcombat.net/freelesson/


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## K-man (Jul 31, 2012)

GaryR said:


> I'm sorry if you feel attacked, that was not my intent, I am trying to have an objective, and productive conversation, it was others who brought in my business and made things more personal.
> 
> A lot of context is is when someone uses a one way medium.  I will try and be sure to not be offensive to anyone, my apologies.
> 
> ...


Once again Gary you have posted a lot of nonsense combined with comments denigrating other practitioners and other styles.


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## jks9199 (Jul 31, 2012)

Thread locked pending staff review

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