# How Important is Fighting in YOUR Martial Art?



## elder999 (Nov 28, 2014)

People do martial arts for a lot of reasons.

What are yours? Is "fighting" important in that art? What is it you call "fighting?"


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## drop bear (Nov 28, 2014)

Yeah. Pretty important. 

we have guys who compete. Which i consider fighting. We have guys like myself who bounce and so have to fight people.

and we train up to 80-90% which i would also consider fighting.

pretty much if i am in real danger of being knocked out i class it as a fight.

and fighting is important because i believe you are unsafe if you engage in that sort of activity where someone is really trying to hurt you and you do not prepare properly for it.


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## qianfeng (Nov 29, 2014)

Fighting should be important in all martial arts. Kung fu masters realised this and it was promoted in republican china by masters of the Nanking kung fu institute. And then the communists came and made modern wushu which basically all the work of the Nanking institute and set beck kung fu by a lot


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## K-man (Nov 29, 2014)

I think I will take a separate post for each martial art starting with Okinawan Goju karate. Fighting is obviously a big part of our training but it is nothing like the sparring you see in other sport style karate. In fact to me sport sparring is detrimental to your training unless you are going to be involved in tournaments.  The reason I say this is that in tournaments you are penalised for not attacking, yet in a fighting sense it is easier and is normally more advantageous to defend than to attack. I would much rather wait for someone to attack me than for me to attack them and of course from a legal point of view it is easier to defend a charge in court where you have been attacked rather than when witnesses or CCTV show that you were the aggressor, regardless of provocation.

As to our 'fighting'. We start from Kakie or sticky hands and build up the intensity depending on the experience of the student. That will include kicks although they are totally controlled because at that range the kicks are generally shin kicks to the knee and with power the damage could be  severe. Because our training is extremely close range the punches are powered by the hips and are always a short travel. Elbows are a big part of our strikes as are knees to the legs, groin or stomach. Also at that range all the locks, holds and takedowns come into play.

Because our training is heavily based on kata we are very big on grappling. Not grappling like you see in BJJ but stand up grappling. Here our 'fighting' is not only trying to deliver strikes with the knees, elbows and fists but also focused on developing a strong centre to enable takedowns and resist being taken down. Also of course, our fighting may well include weapons such as knives and sticks.

So to summarise, fighting is absolutely critical to our training but that fighting is a different to what people expect when they think of karate and are familiar with the sport style sparring.


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## K-man (Nov 29, 2014)

OK. So let's look at Krav. It had a lot in common with Goju but has less complexity. It delivers more bang for your buck than most other MAs. We do have some sparring a bit like kickboxing purely to give guys a feel for hitting and getting hit, distance etc. Once again I would suggest that too much of this type of sparring is detrimental to our training because give and take monkey dance is not the way Krav is practised.

In Krav the fighting is more as a response to an attack. The training is to enter and destroy. The 360 defence in particular works on that principle so to train moving in and out like you see in sport sparring is contrary to the basic principles of Krav. Krav enters, mostly behind some sort of strike, that in itself could be a fight stopper, followed by a barrage of knees before knee to face or forearm to neck. As you might imagine you cannot spar these types of techniques in a realistic manner so a lot is simulated. The exception would be the on ground grappling where the objective is to regain your feet rather than fight for submission. Here the grappling can be more realistic.

So to summarise, certainly fighting is part of our training but again, not the type of fighting you would expect in something like MMA.


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## K-man (Nov 29, 2014)

The last MA I would like to look at is Aikido. The type of sparring you see in something like MMA is totally inappropriate for Aikido. It takes many years to get to a level where I believe you could use Aikido alone to defend yourself. In my case, and I have said many times before, it took more than six years, with an extensive prior MA background, before I felt I could use Aikido in a street situation.

To have Kyu grades sparring in the conventional sense would be totally against the principles of Aikido and would not assist new Aikidoka to master the soft aspects of Aikido. That is not to say that they don't practise the atemi. Atemi has a number of uses. Apart from the obvious use of a strike, atemi is important in ensuring Nage is at the right distance to perform a technique. However the nature of Aikido is such that until you have sufficient skill to perform techniques without thought, I believe you will not be able to use Aikido effectively in a street fight. 

Now, not having sparring as such does not mean that we don't practise techniques against full resistance. We do, but again, not all the time. Sometimes we will seem to be totally compliant but that is part of the training integral to the reversal of techniques.

To summarise, fighting in the conventional sense is totally against all the principles of Aikido. It is not important at all to Aikido training.


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## Buka (Nov 29, 2014)

No more or less than in anyone else's art, I reckon.


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## Shai Hulud (Nov 29, 2014)

NHB and street-style fighting are the core of the Keysi Fighting Method. Core principles and tactics/applications assume that you're going for broke and swinging for the hills.


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## crazydiamond (Nov 29, 2014)

Practical self defense - street fighting is why I chose my MA (JKD Concepts) and my academy to train at. Not concerned with the ring (i am too old to fight in a ring or competitions) or art aspect. My instructors have had more than their share of street fighting experiences. However for me- I hope to never be in a fight and will seek all means to avoid one.   For my young daughter who is learning with me - Its a bit different - and I see much more reasons for learning "real fighting" and the chance she might have to use it - then I ever would.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 29, 2014)

Fighting - physical  contact to prevent or cause injury ( my definition)
Yes the art I instruct is about fighting, and survival. Is there more to it than just getting out on the floor and punching and kicking or locking a person up.  Yes, but to go into all that is involved would take me a day or so to explain and then some would not understand whitout studying with me for years


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## K-man (Nov 29, 2014)

Shai Hulud said:


> NHB and street-style fighting are the core of the Keysi Fighting Method. Core principles and tactics/applications assume that you're going for broke and swinging for the hills.


So, within your training, what type of sparring/fighting do you do? In principle KFM has many similarities with Krav.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 29, 2014)

elder999 said:


> People do martial arts for a lot of reasons.
> 
> What are yours? Is "fighting" important in that art?


 
In place of the term 'fighting' I would insert self defense.  Now, self defense could include a pre-emptive strike in specific circumstances, but the goal is one of defending oneself or another from the attack of another.  In this manner, our art is 100% focused upon this goal.


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## K-man (Nov 29, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> In place of the term 'fighting' I would insert self defense.  Now, self defense could include a pre-emptive strike in specific circumstances, but the goal is one of defending oneself or another from the attack of another.  In this manner, our art is 100% focused upon this goal.


That may be true but that is not the question being asked. This thread has come from the other one posted by Hanzou where the definitions were so loose that it was impossible to get a straight answer.

So self defence may well be an important part of your training but the question is ... in *your* training what 'fighting' do you do? Do you spar in the conventional sense? Do you grapple? How do you test your techniques? Is 'fighting' part of your training and as Elder asked, what does 'fighting' mean to you in a training sense?


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 29, 2014)

K-man said:


> That may be true but that is not the question being asked. This thread has come from the other one posted by Hanzou where the definitions were so loose that it was impossible to get a straight answer.
> 
> So self defence may well be an important part of your training but the question is ... in *your* training what 'fighting' do you do? Do you spar in the conventional sense? Do you grapple? How do you test your techniques? Is 'fighting' part of your training and as Elder asked, what does 'fighting' mean to you in a training sense?


 
Ah, okay.  In that regard, we use scenario based training.  That is our hands-on 'fighting'.  This would include grappling, ground, standing, escapes, locks, throws etc against a resisting attacker in a format that is as realistic as possible while still maintaining a margin of safety and realism.


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## Shai Hulud (Nov 29, 2014)

K-man said:


> So, within your training, what type of sparring/fighting do you do? In principle KFM has many similarities with Krav.


That is correct. Training methods don't differ that greatly from Krav Maga and Systema.

Sparring/fighting is done full contact (full protective gear), and sometimes light contact (minimal protective gear) depending on whether you're training for "toughness" in the case of the former, or conditioning yourself to new techniques in the latter. (in the second module of the "beginner/advance/elite" curriculum of the program, they actually start regularly pitting you against more than 1 person just to test your nerves) Isolated drills and work on the kick-pads/punching bag will never go away, but in Keysi unless you can string them all together in realistic fighting conditions and under pressure, it's all for naught.


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## Blindside (Dec 1, 2014)

Pekiti-Tirsia Kali.  Fighting, in the sense of a duel or self-defense in an integral part of the martial art, and quite frankly GT Gaje prefers to refer to the PTK as a "fighting art" not a "martial art."  Like many FMA it starts out with the assumption that a weapon is involved, be it stick, knife, or machete, rock, gun, or something, because, well, why wouldn't you assume a weapon is involved, particularly if you happen to be carrying said weapon?  Most initial training sets up for a duel format where drills focus on matched weapons, both training partners have one knife, one stick, two sticks, one staff, etc, this allows the training to focus on a particular topic and development area.  Training then shifts to asymmetric weapon sets; unarmed vs knife, knife vs. stick, machete vs staff, unarmed vs. staff, etc.  This second portion is much more applicable to the self-defense arena than the earlier training drills involving matched weapons, but most of the skill sets used in the asymmetric portion are developed in the symmetric training sets, so it is a vital part of the training equation.

Most PTK groups use sparring as a important tool in development of their skill sets.  Part of the training has a well established build of drill to technical sparring to full-contact light armor sparring, not all groups emphasize the last portion equally and not all students are ever ready or willing to go to full contact levels.  My group uses sparring as both the duel and the self-defense aspects, and we are working the sparring skill sets into scenario training as well, trying to fully bridge that gap between the duel and the self-defense sides of the art.


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## Marnetmar (Dec 5, 2014)

I find that a lot of people's definition of "fighting" is really more hardcore sparring, which, while both are important and complement each other, are very different animals as well.

It seems like people that can spar well (true, full-contact sparring) can usually fight, but people that can fight, can't necessarily spar, or fight against someone that's been trained in sparring. The reason why being that in a "true" fight, by my definition, there is no strategy, while sparring at some level is very much a game, in which you are trained to automatically respond to various different types of force coming at them.


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## donald1 (Dec 5, 2014)

elder999 said:


> People do martial arts for a lot of reasons.
> 
> What are yours? Is "fighting" important in that art? What is it you call "fighting?"


my reason, its something i like doing  i guess fighting and self defense could fit in similar categories. if so thats the only thing that happens in the karate class i go to. so i would probably say somewhat important. fighting to me? i dont think much of it maybe the self defence aspect but not much more.


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## Hanzou (Dec 5, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I find that a lot of people's definition of "fighting" is really more hardcore sparring, which, while both are important and complement each other, are very different animals as well.
> 
> It seems like people that can spar well (true, full-contact sparring) can usually fight, but people that can fight, can't necessarily spar, or fight against someone that's been trained in sparring. The reason why being that in a "true" fight, by my definition, there is no strategy, while sparring at some level is very much a game, in which you are trained to automatically respond to various different types of force coming at them.



The goal of a fight should be to get someone into your "game". Once that happens, your chances of beating them is increased exponentially. Sometimes that "game" doesn't even involve anything physical. There's a mental game as well.


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## K-man (Dec 5, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> The goal of a fight should be to get someone into your "game". Once that happens, your chances of beating them is increased exponentially. Sometimes that "game" doesn't even involve anything physical. There's a mental game as well.


But that depends on the context of the 'fight'. In the ring that is true. It is a game as you say, no different to playing chess. So that is what you train for. In the outside world you want to be out of the 'game', not in it. Hence the different emphasis on 'fighting' when we train.

The mental aspect is the same either way.


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## K-man (Dec 5, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I find that a lot of people's definition of "fighting" is really more hardcore sparring, which, while both are important and complement each other, are very different animals as well.
> 
> It seems like people that can spar well (true, full-contact sparring) can usually fight, but people that can fight, can't necessarily spar, or fight against someone that's been trained in sparring. The reason why being that in a "true" fight, by my definition, there is no strategy, while sparring at some level is very much a game, in which you are trained to automatically respond to various different types of force coming at them.


This post got me thinking about a grading we conducted last week. One of the guys was grading for his brown belt. In the kumite he had to take on four black belts one by one. The intention was to attack him as he might be attacked on the street. So two of the four attacked that way ending up grappling and taking him to the ground. The other two reverted to days passed and sparred as we used to spar for competition. Interesting to see that the training was so ingrained that you revert to what you know. What I would have liked the candidate to do is either close and engage, or run for the door when he had the chance. Either way would have provided a satisfactory outcome even if bolting for the door wasn't the intention.  In this case all of us had been involved in a sport based style. Exactly the reasons I have removed that sort of sparring from our training. First reason, he engaged when he didn't need to engage. Second reason, he stayed and sparred when he had the chance to avoid the fight.


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## Hanzou (Dec 5, 2014)

K-man said:


> But that depends on the context of the 'fight'. In the ring that is true. It is a game as you say, no different to playing chess. So that is what you train for. In the outside world you want to be out of the 'game', not in it. Hence the different emphasis on 'fighting' when we train.
> 
> The mental aspect is the same either way.



I would say that its true in every case. In your game you're at your strongest. Why wouldn't you want to fight from that advantage point?


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## elder999 (Dec 5, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I would say that its true in every case. In your game you're at your strongest. Why wouldn't you want to fight from that advantage point?


 
Someone with a knife was "in their game," once-right up until I shoved a pen in their sub-clavian artery.
just sayin'......


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## Paul_D (Dec 5, 2014)

qianfeng said:


> Fighting should be important in all martial arts.



That's one hell of a statement.  To being telling every martial artist on the planet what they should or should not be considering important in their training.  Not every martial art includes fighting, and not every martial artist trains for, or has any interest in, fighting.

If you wish to test your skill against another trained martial artist then yes (competition fighting), or as a back up in case your self defence fails (and you end up street fighting figthing) yes, but ALL martial art (and therefore ALL marital artists)?  I would disagree.


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## K-man (Dec 5, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I would say that its true in every case. In your game you're at your strongest. Why wouldn't you want to fight from that advantage point?


Why would I want to fight?

My point is I don't want to be part of someone else's 'game'. If I have to fight it will be from my advantage point if I have the choice. In a sport environment you know where your opponent is. In a street situation you may be ambushed. Even after you engage there may be other opponents of whom you are not initially aware. Worse still you opponent might be armed. 

Fighting in the ring, great. Go for it, if that is your passion. Fighting on the street is different and should be trained differently.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 27, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> The goal of a fight should be to get someone into your "game". Once that happens, your chances of beating them is increased exponentially. Sometimes that "game" doesn't even involve anything physical. There's a mental game as well.



Real fighting isn't a game. If you think it is, than that explains why we are world's apart on this issue.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> Real fighting isn't a game. If you think it is, than that explains why we are world's apart on this issue.



Different use of the word game there.

And the super serious real fighting thing tends to romanticize real fighting. Makes you sound like you are using your Clint Eastwood voice.


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## Hanzou (Feb 27, 2015)

K-man said:


> Why would I want to fight?
> 
> My point is I don't want to be part of someone else's 'game'. If I have to fight it will be from my advantage point if I have the choice.



That's the "game" I was talking about.



> Fighting in the ring, great. Go for it, if that is your passion. Fighting on the street is different and should be trained differently.



So is kata considered necessary training to fight on the street?

I certainly hope not.



Spinedoc said:


> Real fighting isn't a game. If you think it is, than that explains why we are world's apart on this issue.



As Drop Bear said, different use of the word "game" than what you think it is. 

Nice necro btw.


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## K-man (Feb 28, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So is kata considered necessary training to fight on the street?
> 
> I certainly hope not.


After all this time and all those posts and you still don't get it. Of course kata is not necessary to fight on the street. Nobody has ever suggested that to my knowledge. However, if you do understand the kata bunkai, then certainly you can use it. But remember, that is totally different to just practising the kata. Practising the kata for twenty years means nothing in a fight if you don't know how to use it.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

K-man said:


> After all this time and all those posts and you still don't get it. Of course kata is not necessary to fight on the street. Nobody has ever suggested that to my knowledge. However, if you do understand the kata bunkai, then certainly you can use it. But remember, that is totally different to just practising the kata. Practising the kata for twenty years means nothing in a fight if you don't know how to use it.



I am not sure how bunkai address the issue that the other is denying you the ability to do all of these moves to him.


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## drop bear (Feb 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am not sure how bunkai address the issue that the other is denying you the ability to do all of these moves to him.


eg.





I will call it the bad partner. (yes another made up term)

Sparring/fighting exposes you to a different dynamic. And it is an important one.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 28, 2015)

An opponent who deliberately tries to prevent me from doing one thing is inadvertently helping me do another.

When demonstrating a specific move, that sucks. When sparring or struggling for advantage, it totally helps and resistance is something I hope for.


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## ShortBridge (Feb 28, 2015)

Very important.

and in the words of the great Forrest Gump..."that's all I have to say about that."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 28, 2015)

Spinedoc said:


> Real fighting isn't a game. If you think it is, than that explains why we are world's apart on this issue.


The real fight still need to have

1. your effective "finish moves", and
2. your effective counters to your opponent's "finish moves".

IMO, those 2 are the main reason that we train MA. Whether you take the sport approach or self-defense approach, the goal is the same.

- Try to finish your opponent, and
- try not to let your opponent to finish you.


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## Spinedoc (Feb 28, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> An opponent who deliberately tries to prevent me from doing one thing is inadvertently helping me do another.
> 
> When demonstrating a specific move, that sucks. When sparring or struggling for advantage, it totally helps and resistance is something I hope for.



Yeah, I made this mistake once with a 5th dan Aikido Sensei. I was resisting a little too hard during a kaitenage technique, he simply blended and before I even knew what happened I was being thrown in a soto kotegaeshi. As soon as I stood up he had me going over in a hard kokyunage and then looked at me and said "done yet?" It was quite humbling. 

Mike


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## K-man (Feb 28, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am not sure how bunkai address the issue that the other is denying you the ability to do all of these moves to him.


I'm not going to go down that track again. I have described the use of bunkai in great detail in other threads. You don't decide ahead of time that you will use any particular defence. You work with what you are given. The secret is in the ability to recognise the opportunity to use the bunkai. It has absolutely nothing to do with someone denying you the ability to use bunkai. If you can't use it you can't.

I was reading an article recently where troops in the Middle East were suddenly engaged in CQC and couldn't draw their weapons. They were fighting literally hand to hand.  Bunkai is a little like the weapon on your belt. You can choose to use it or not, or you may not be given the opportunity to use it. However, if the opportunity arises you have it available.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 2, 2015)

K-man said:


> I'm not going to go down that track again. I have described the use of bunkai in great detail in other threads. You don't decide ahead of time that you will use any particular defence. You work with what you are given. The secret is in the ability to recognise the opportunity to use the bunkai. It has absolutely nothing to do with someone denying you the ability to use bunkai. If you can't use it you can't.


|
If the uke was wrong, the instructor was WRONGER.  IMO, the instructor should have either selected another uke, or demonstrated the over-riding tactical principle of JUDO which is (I believe) Maximum effect with Minimum effort.  In Judo, you don't pit physical force against physical force, even more notable here because the instructor had a definite height & size advantage.
|
So I concur with you IN PRINCIPLE.  OTOH, it was a demonstration of the structure of the intended technique, not the competitive effectiveness in this case.  I think the instructor sought to get across the mechanics alone.  So instructing with a passive uke was proper.  The uke was deliberately resisting the instructor.  Pretty much a judgment call which the instructor should have handled through discipline if need be.  A little image problem took over instead.....


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## Jenna (Mar 3, 2015)

elder999 said:


> People do martial arts for a lot of reasons.
> 
> What are yours? Is "fighting" important in that art? What is it you call "fighting?"


It is a good question.. has prompted an interesting debate.. I would answer your original question?

My MA has changed as I have changed.. it began as one certain thing as an assist for a part of my younger life and I am grateful to have chosen an art which suited my mercurial temperament and was able to keep useful as my life has become first the one thing and then another thing. 

I imagine this is not the art.. ALL arts will do this by the willingness of the practitioner to adapt that art..

Is fighting important in my own way of my own art?  yes it was imperative when I was younger and but that fighting had taught me to ask myself.. why am i fighting and what is it to me if I win or do not this battle or that war..

For me there are many lessons I had taken from years of fighting all of which were asking me to take a long look at my self.. I have done.. I still fight.. Some times.. the world can be harsh.. as can life.. as can I.. sometimes.. Jx


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> eg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All of which has absolutely nothing to do with what I am talking about. 

As for the 'bad' partner. I have no problem in him resisting in that way, particularly with a supposedly proficient instructor. Where resisting like that is wrong is in the learning phase. If I am demonstrating a technique I want guys to use everything they have to stop it working against them including every ounce of strength and punching if necessary. If there is a flaw in my technique I want to find it when practising, not in real life. To say, ok "just go along with me" is BS. Either the technique works or it doesn't. Learning it, sure, go along with it. Testing it, totally different.


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> If the uke was wrong, the instructor was WRONGER.  IMO, the instructor should have either selected another uke, or demonstrated the over-riding tactical principle of JUDO which is (I believe) Maximum effect with Minimum effort.  In Judo, you don't pit physical force against physical force, even more notable here because the instructor had a definite height & size advantage.
> |
> So I concur with you IN PRINCIPLE.  OTOH, it was a demonstration of the structure of the intended technique, not the competitive effectiveness in this case.  I think the instructor sought to get across the mechanics alone.  So instructing with a passive uke was proper.  The uke was deliberately resisting the instructor.  Pretty much a judgment call which the instructor should have handled through discipline if need be.  A little image problem took over instead.....


You quoted me for what reason? 

Perhaps you were thinking of Drop Bears post?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am not sure how bunkai address the issue that the other is denying you the ability to do all of these moves to him.



Out of interest, how are you defining bunkai?



drop bear said:


> eg.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You… er…. do know that that is a staged/set up clip, yeah?

With regards to sparring exposing you to a different dynamic, yeah… but other training methods expose you to ones (I'd argue more realistic ones) than sparring does… that's the point of different training methodologies, really.


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## Spinedoc (Mar 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Out of interest, how are you defining bunkai?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But, but, but……wait…it's on the internet. Therefore it must be real and true…….


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## Paul_D (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am not sure how bunkai address the issue that the other is denying you the ability to do all of these moves to him.


 Iain Abernthy's interpretations of kata bunkai deal with this issue.


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## dominate_warrior (Mar 3, 2015)

I think that if you are capable of doing so than yes, I believe it is very important. It's not all about fighting. It's about finding strength and discipline in yourself; learning more and more each day about the art and yourself.

So yes it can be very important but don't let it make you forget about the true meaning of why martial arts exist and came about. 

Em


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Out of interest, how are you defining bunkai?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yes i know it is staged. It was an example of what i am on about. That bad partner facto is a pretty big deal though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 3, 2015)

K-man said:


> The reason I say this is that in tournaments you are penalised for not attacking, yet in a fighting sense it is easier and is normally more advantageous to defend than to attack.



There's a bit of a catch-22 with that approach, however. You're quite correct that for self-defense the roles of attacker and defender are asymmetric. Sparring in the conventional sense _can_ lead the student to build habits of engaging and attacking which can be counterproductive in a self-defense scenario where they need to be defending, disengaging, and escaping.

The problem I've seen in many, many schools where they primarily practice defenses predicated on a given attack, is that the students never actually get good at attacking*. If your training partner isn't good at attacking, then you will never develop really solid defenses against those attacks.

That's why I think there is an important place for the sort of sparring that develops solid aggressive tactics. You might not use those tactics in self-defense, but you will use them to help your training partners get better at defending.

*(Most of those schools give lip service to delivering a good attack and insist on delivering the attack according to certain guidelines, but the attacks still end up being something that will never be effective against a competent opponent.)


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There's a bit of a catch-22 with that approach, however. You're quite correct that for self-defense the roles of attacker and defender are asymmetric. Sparring in the conventional sense _can_ lead the student to build habits of engaging and attacking which can be counterproductive in a self-defense scenario where they need to be defending, disengaging, and escaping.
> 
> The problem I've seen in many, many schools where they primarily practice defenses predicated on a given attack, is that the students never actually get good at attacking*. If your training partner isn't good at attacking, then you will never develop really solid defenses against those attacks.
> 
> ...



Why i made up the bad partner idea. Fighting is about denying the other guys options from that outset. You don't let that grab come on and then defend.

You defend as soon as you can.

Triangle defence is a good example. The best defence is positional.


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Out of interest, how are you defining bunkai?


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There's a bit of a catch-22 with that approach, however. You're quite correct that for self-defense the roles of attacker and defender are asymmetric. Sparring in the conventional sense _can_ lead the student to build habits of engaging and attacking which can be counterproductive in a self-defense scenario where they need to be defending, disengaging, and escaping.
> 
> The problem I've seen in many, many schools where they primarily practice defenses predicated on a given attack, is that the students never actually get good at attacking*. If your training partner isn't good at attacking, then you will never develop really solid defenses against those attacks.
> 
> ...


I think you have identified an important issue, that being unrealistic attacks. I don't like conventional competition sparring because it is not what you want for self defence. Self defence is the prime objective in all my training and sport sparring has no place. 

Most attacks you see on Youtube and presumably in a large number of martial art schools is when someone steps in and punches then leaves the arm hanging out so that the person performing the defence can do what they like. Except in the very early stages of training I don't do that. However, you can't train a defence against a particular attack unless you know what attack is coming. Down the track we train against an unscripted attack where you just respond instinctively but it takes time to get people to that level.

So it depends on what you want to test. If you want to test a particular technique you need a particular attack and as you say, that is not really applicable to the real world. However, if you don't specify an attack you can test the student's response to an unknown, realistic attack. To me that is far more realistic than sport sparring. 

Does that make the attacker better at attacking? I couldn't really say because in reality once he attacks he is immediately being attacked violently back and if you are not used to that it can be really confronting, totally different to the give and take of normal sparring.


----------



## K-man (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


>


Ok, to me, despite the label there was no bunkai in this clip. There is a training drill called Kakie which is a bit like sticky hands, there was testing of the stability of Sanchin Kata and there was an explanation of several individual techniques that just happen to be in kata Seisan. Plus a few weak strikes to the torso that have nothing at all to do with bunkai. Bunkai assumes a series of techniques that are linked, leading to the attacker being disabled.

If this is your definition of bunkai ... it makes discussion impossible.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

K-man said:


> Ok, to me, despite the label there was no bunkai in this clip. There is a training drill called Kakie which is a bit like sticky hands, there was testing of the stability of Sanchin Kata and there was an explanation of several individual techniques that just happen to be in kata Seisan. Plus a few weak strikes to the torso that have nothing at all to do with bunkai. Bunkai assumes a series of techniques that are linked, leading to the attacker being disabled.
> 
> If this is your definition of bunkai ... it makes discussion impossible.



Yeah ok. 

No true Scotsman.


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

K-man said:


> Does that make the attacker better at attacking? I couldn't really say because in reality once he attacks he is immediately being attacked violently back and if you are not used to that it can be really confronting, totally different to the give and take of normal sparring.



The better he attacks the less chance he is going to get countered. 

And not all sparring is at that one for one pace. Ronda rouseys last fight as an example.


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The better he attacks the less chance he is going to get countered.
> 
> And not all sparring is at that one for one pace. Ronda rouseys last fight as an example.






hardly give and take.


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The better he attacks the less chance he is going to get countered.
> 
> And not all sparring is at that one for one pace. Ronda rouseys last fight as an example.


And that's fine. But that doesn't mean that we have to go down the track of competition sparring to effectively test our technique.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> And that's fine. But that doesn't mean that we have to go down the track of competition sparring to effectively test our technique.



You can play around with the concept of competition sparring. But at some stage you will have to test your stuff with a fairly open playing field.

What this provides you is the ability to roll over the guy in ten seconds if that is what you think will work. Or not. If you think something else will work.

And not this concept where you have this conclusion and you are trying to validate it.

Which I think is a backwards way to go. 

This is why no security trainer sparrs the concept of standing arm locks. Because they have an outcome they have to reach. Which is standing arm locks will actually work.

And when you spar. They mostly don't.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2015)

knife defence may be the easiest to finds and most glaring example of what i am suggesting here.

The issue is you are generally going to look like a goose regardless of your martial experience if you train this way.


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> knife defence may be the easiest to finds and most glaring example of what i am suggesting here.
> 
> The issue is you are generally going to look like a goose regardless of your martial experience if you train this way.


I don't have an is due with this. The 'fantasy' attacks are what I describe as God's gift to you. If you get that sort of attack, great but it is not all that likely if the guy with the knife has any experience. However there are different factors in play. Does the guy really want to kill or is there another reason for using the knife? If it is a robbery or hostage situation you may well have a static knife. If it is a domestic, the ice pick attack is the most common here. But we train with knives every night to get the guys familiar with the 'real' style attacks as shown in your video. It is not easy to defend against a knife which us why the advice is always, "if you don't have to fight the guy with a knife, don't. Keep your ego out of it."


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> Most attacks you see on Youtube and presumably in a large number of martial art schools is when someone steps in and punches then leaves the arm hanging out so that the person performing the defence can do what they like. Except in the very early stages of training I don't do that. However, you can't train a defence against a particular attack unless you know what attack is coming. Down the track we train against an unscripted attack where you just respond instinctively but it takes time to get people to that level.



Yeah, drilling against a specific, known attack is part of the process before you get to training against unscripted attacks. That's not really what I'm talking about when I talk about training partners not knowing how to deliver good attacks. I'm talking about telegraphed attacks with poor distancing, poor balance, poor body dynamics, and no awareness of what the intended follow-up would be.



K-man said:


> Does that make the attacker better at attacking? I couldn't really say because in reality once he attacks he is immediately being attacked violently back and if you are not used to that it can be really confronting, totally different to the give and take of normal sparring.



Being immediately and violently counterattacked should be part of the sparring experience. (I'm not talking about "tag, you're it" point sparring, obviously.) It's true that much of sparring can end up being a chess game with lots of "feeling out" going on, but everybody should have the experience of launching a poorly timed or ineffective attack and being repaid with a barrage of punches or being slammed to the ground. That's part of how you learn the flaws in your attacks.


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## Hanzou (Mar 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


>



Honestly, the sparring portion is far more telling;


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, the sparring portion is far more telling;




LOL!  No comment.  However, I'd much rather see some Black Belt sparring, such as this:






or even this:






At least they're hitting, and the hits are hard.


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly, the sparring portion is far more telling;


Hanzou, are you aware that Japanese Goju has different types of sparring? You love posting videos to prove how bad other styles are compared to what you say you do but in this case you have posted a clip of awasse kumite or slow sparring, a tool to develop your understanding of distance and control. I think that Tom Hills style is basically an Okinawan form of Goju but seeing that Okinawan karate has very little sparring it is understandable that he would adopt the Goju Kai style training for guys who want to spar or enter competition. Obviously there is no exact line dividing awasse kumite and jiyu kumite, so there is an overlap where more experienced guys will move faster and less experienced, slower.

If you are going to post video of karate sparring at least post stuff that is representative of the art even if neither of us likes it for totally opposite reasons.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 4, 2015)

K-man said:


>


I'm not sure which I find more annoying - that style of sparring or the music they have going.


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## Blindside (Mar 4, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure which I find more annoying - that style of sparring or the music they have going.


 
I watched it without sound, definately the style of sparring.  uhg.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2015)

K-man said:


> I don't have an is due with this. The 'fantasy' attacks are what I describe as God's gift to you. If you get that sort of attack, great but it is not all that likely if the guy with the knife has any experience. However there are different factors in play. Does the guy really want to kill or is there another reason for using the knife? If it is a robbery or hostage situation you may well have a static knife. If it is a domestic, the ice pick attack is the most common here. But we train with knives every night to get the guys familiar with the 'real' style attacks as shown in your video. It is not easy to defend against a knife which us why the advice is always, "if you don't have to fight the guy with a knife, don't. Keep your ego out of it."



And you don't think that is a bit backwards?

I mean we train a defence that can pretty reliably get us cut to ribbons in training vs a rubber knife. From a guy with almost no training.

But the technique still works because reasons.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure which I find more annoying - that style of sparring or the music they have going.



Except what is our street logic. That fights last 3 seconds and the first person to get a shot off gains the distinct advantage.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Except what is our street logic. That fights last 3 seconds and the first person to get a shot off gains the distinct advantage.





Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


Everybody hates point fighting and distance fighting and back foot fighting and i think there are some wrong reasons behind it.

 The idea that a fight is a no room affair to the death all the time is a misconception. And personally creating space can work in your favor.


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## FriedRice (Mar 10, 2015)

K-man said:


> So it depends on what you want to test. If you want to test a particular technique you need a particular attack and as you say, that is not really applicable to the real world. However, if you don't specify an attack you can test the student's response to an unknown, realistic attack. To me that is far more realistic than sport sparring.



What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner? Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring.


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## K-man (Mar 11, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner? Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them, works just the same in the street as it does in the ring.


For a start, I don't know any TMAs that spar so that rules that one out and I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner. If we had our old emoticons I'd be running up the BS flag on that one. Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

K-man said:


> For a start, I don't know any TMAs that spar so that rules that one out and I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner. If we had our old emoticons I'd be running up the BS flag on that one. Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.



huh?

plenty of tmas spar. Very few don't.

I have seen 100% sparring and even KOs from face punches.

I am not sure where you are going at all with this.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 11, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner?





K-man said:


> I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner.





drop bear said:


> I have seen 100% sparring and even KOs from face punches.



I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.

The folks at the Militech gym famously did spar 100% as a regular thing, leading to lots of knock outs and injuries in training. They produced some good fighters, but I suspect they also suffered a lot of unnecessary brain damage.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.
> 
> The folks at the Militech gym famously did spar 100% as a regular thing, leading to lots of knock outs and injuries in training. They produced some good fighters, but I suspect they also suffered a lot of unnecessary brain damage.



I think you should probably at least do a bit before you jump in the ring. For us there is a tapering process. So the sparring gets harder and then drops off about a week before.

As far as temper egos go. You have starved bashed and basically tortured a guy in preparation to fight someone in public so they can get a little emotional.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

As far as maintaining hard sparring. If the sparring partner is considerably better the fighter might go 100% but the partner may stay at 80% 

Or If the fighter is better we might switch out the sparring partner each minute.


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## Instructor (Mar 11, 2015)

To me a fight is real.  Not an exercise or a competition but, you know real.  As in some person decides to beat the living crap out of you, mug you, rob you, rape you, kill you, maim you, hurt you. For some of motivation.  That's fighting.

We spar, it's educational but is not fighting.


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## K-man (Mar 11, 2015)

drop bear said:


> huh?
> 
> plenty of tmas spar. Very few don't.
> 
> ...


Show me one TMA that spars in the way you mean, that is sport sparring. I have never seen one but I must confess I haven't looked to hard. I had enough in my early Goju Kai days.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

K-man said:


> Show me one TMA that spars in the way you mean, that is sport sparring. I have never seen one but I must confess I haven't looked to hard. I had enough in my early Goju Kai days.


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## drop bear (Mar 11, 2015)

K-man said:


> But that depends on the context of the 'fight'. In the ring that is true. It is a game as you say, no different to playing chess. So that is what you train for. In the outside world you want to be out of the 'game', not in it. Hence the different emphasis on 'fighting' when we train.
> 
> The mental aspect is the same either way.



It is not really how that term is used. The idea is I fight where I have the advantage and you don't. That is my game.


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## Blindside (Mar 11, 2015)

K-man said:


> Hanzou, are you aware that Japanese Goju has different types of sparring?


 


K-man said:


> For a start, I don't know any TMAs that spar so that rules that one out and I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either,


 
These two statements seem contradictary, you don't know any TMAs that spar?


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## K-man (Mar 11, 2015)

Blindside said:


> These two statements seem contradictary, you don't know any TMAs that spar?


I stand corrected. DB posted the video of Sumo! Even then I would suggest that they are engaging and grappling rather than dancing in and out trying to punch each other. 

It depends on your definition of TMA. We 'spar' but in a similar way to what you would call sparring in Jujutsu or even BJJ. TMA is such a broad term that it becomes meaningless in a discussion like this. 

We used to do sport sparring and it was great fun. We went in tournaments, me with very little success back then. But in the context of the OP realistic training is essential to any martial art but what we see the baggers calling 'tippy tappy TMA' has no place in my training and is not in any art that I call traditional that I can think of.

I think of the Japanese Karate styles and TKD as modern martial arts and that they have gone down the sport pathway is great. Just that is not how the older styles train. 

But what really pisses me off is when the baggers post crappy video purporting to represent all karate.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 12, 2015)

K-man said:


> |
> It depends on your definition of TMA. We 'spar' but in a similar way to what you would call sparring in Jujutsu or even BJJ. TMA is such a broad term that it becomes meaningless in a discussion like this.


|
If one generalizes overly, this is true.  TMA should have have certain standards that are followed across all styles... That's what makes them TMA's.


K-man said:


> We used to do sport sparring and it was great fun. We went in tournaments, me with very little success back then. But in the context of the OP realistic training is essential to any martial art but what we see the baggers calling 'tippy tappy TMA' has no place in my training and is not in any art that I call traditional that I can think of.


|
I guess to follow on, how does 'tippy tappy' meet the standards of TMA.  I mean we never saw the Okinawan Karate Masters advocating such....  To speed forward to Ed Parker's American Kenpo, we never saw him teach 'tippy tappy.'



K-man said:


> I think of the Japanese Karate styles and TKD as modern martial arts and that they have gone down the sport pathway is great. Just that is not how the older styles train.


|
Again, I think this is a disservice to the serious *& dedicated practitioners in these styles.  Are you lumping say, Richard Heselton in with the 'baggers' playing 'tippy tappy?'



K-man said:


> But what really pisses me off is when the baggers post crappy video purporting to represent all karate.


|
Hey, this is a driving reason why my competition record is what it is.  But at some point, the supposed karate so posted has degenerated into some junior high school sporting game of who has the sneakier, quicker reactions to out-touch the other guy.  I can't abide any one saying that this is the traditional karate system and what's more, I should have plenty of company from serious karateka of all kind....


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## K-man (Mar 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> If one generalizes overly, this is true.  TMA should have have certain standards that are followed across all styles... That's what makes them TMA's.


Mmm. I have to disagree. Okinawa has criteria to determine if karate styles are traditional. They only recognise four styles as traditional.



ShotoNoob said:


> I guess to follow on, how does 'tippy tappy' meet the standards of TMA.  I mean we never saw the Okinawan Karate Masters advocating such....  To speed forward to Ed Parker's American Kenpo, we never saw him teach 'tippy tappy.'


'tippy tappy' is the derogatory description of karate and TKD sparring introduced by on of the MMA is best brigade. Okinawan karate does not have 'tippy tappy'. They don't spar this way as a general principle. There are other ways they test their skills.



ShotoNoob said:


> Again, I think this is a disservice to the serious *& dedicated practitioners in these styles.  Are you lumping say, Richard Heselton in with the 'baggers' playing 'tippy tappy?'


Not at all. Now I'd never heard of Richard Heselton but I'm assuming he is a top competition competitor. Whether the baggers would call what he does 'tippy tappy' you would have to ask them. I think most of their posts are a disservice to all serious and dedicated practitioners. That's why I hold them in such low esteem.




ShotoNoob said:


> Hey, this is a driving reason why my competition record is what it is.  But at some point, the supposed karate so posted has degenerated into some junior high school sporting game of who has the sneakier, quicker reactions to out-touch the other guy.  I can't abide any one saying that this is the traditional karate system and what's more, I should have plenty of company from serious karateka of all kind....


Agree totally, but the baggers continue to post the worst examples of any art they can find to make their point that all other arts suck.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 12, 2015)

K-man said:


> Mmm. I have to disagree. Okinawa has criteria to determine if karate styles are traditional. They only recognise four styles as traditional.


|
On how you define traditional karate, I accede.  I'm not looking at the Okinawan Masters you particularly speak of as the defining judges of what is and what is not traditional karate.  We have a definitional difference.  You have much more in-depth knowledge of your defining principles I grant you that hands down.



K-man said:


> 'tippy tappy' is the derogatory description of karate and TKD sparring introduced by on of the MMA is best brigade. Okinawan karate does not have 'tippy tappy'. They don't spar this way as a general principle. There are other ways they test their skills.


|
And I don't think "tippy tappy" is traditional karate--PERIOD.  People in karate uniforms at karate schools sparring "tippy tappy" should NEVER use the word traditional and probably should STRIKE the word karate from their activity as well.



K-man said:


> Not at all. Now I'd never heard of Richard Heselton but I'm assuming he is a top competition competitor. Whether the baggers would call what he does 'tippy tappy' you would have to ask them. I think most of their posts are a disservice to all serious and dedicated practitioners. That's why I hold them in such low esteem.


|
Heselton practices a non-Okinawan style of karate.  He's of English decent I think,  but had worked his way to the top in the Japanese karate national tournaments.  I don't abide by all of Heselton's training regiment but I respect his very high personal dedication & Achievement and he has won great respect from the official Japanese karate associations.  He's a good example of revealing how prejudiced those 'baggers' kumite posts are .



K-man said:


> Agree totally, but the baggers continue to post the worst examples of any art they can find to make their point that all other arts suck.


|
Precisely.  This is a main reason that I study Shotokan academically.  Some of the practice of it is so bad.  Very bad really.  Yet Shotokan done well is really very effective.  Of course we are back to a definition question of what is Shotokan "done well."  I don't care for Shotokan myself, I think there's lots to criticize.  Yet again, Shotokan done well is very effective, a very effective method of self defense for commom civil situations.  Shotokan with it's heavy emphasis on proper body mechanics is well suited for MMA.  The key is to train it competently, and Richard Heselton is a fine example of the Shotokan[?] karate style & conventions done well.
|
That's my opinion and I have plenty of company among Japan's reigning karateka.


----------



## K-man (Mar 12, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> On how you define traditional karate, I accede.  I'm not looking at the Okinawan Masters you particularly speak of as the defining judges of what is and what is not traditional karate.  We have a definitional difference.  You have much more in-depth knowledge of your defining principles I grant you that hands down.
> 
> 
> ...


And I concur with all of that. You might remember I started another thread with an article that was saying Shotokan is effective for self defence. I think the shame is that that should have to be said in the first place.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 12, 2015)

K-man said:


> And I concur with all of that. You might remember I started another thread with an article that was saying Shotokan is effective for self defence. I think the shame is that that should have to be said in the first place.


|
Absolutely.... Criticizing something you can't do is easy.  Getting good at what Gichin Funakoshi and his son designed, that's HARRRRRD.
|
Like I say over and over, I don't personally care for Shotokan, would never practice it myself.  I'm not Shotokan for every body to decide, I can only make a personal decision about it for me.  Do I use Shotokan principles in my training & fighting.  Answer, we all do.  I'm just more aware of what those principles are....


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> I have never seen 100% power sparring in a boxing gym either, especially against your training partner. If we had our old emoticons I'd be running up the BS flag on that one. Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.



Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.



> Finally, punching someone in the face is unlikely to KO them either. Apart from that, cool post.



That's wrong. While I said "the face" for dramatic effects, I generally mean the head. But the chin is also part of the face or some to most of the chin, is. Parts of the temple can be a part of the face and a punch can certainly be on the border of both.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.


How long do you think Mike Tyson's sparring partners would last if he sparred with them the same way he fought his opponents in the ring? No one in their right mind would spar full contact with full power all the time.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> To me a fight is real.  Not an exercise or a competition but, you know real.  As in some person decides to beat the living crap out of you, mug you, rob you, rape you, kill you, maim you, hurt you. For some of motivation.  That's fighting.
> 
> We spar, it's educational but is not fighting.



This sounds like the usual, Self Defense angle of romanticizing the usual, death match scenarios that hardly ever happens. Street fights usually ends when someone is KO'ed and are usually  a lot easier than  fighting an equally skilled competitor in MMA or other full contact sports fighting. 

MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death. Do you think that an MMA fighter is not putting all of whatever power he's got in trying to throw his fist, elbows, knees, etc. into his opponent's face, head, body, etc.? Or do you think that he's only putting in 50% or even 80% and then saving that 100% power & intensity only for the streets? Especially when tens of millions of dollars can be riding on their fight. Hell, even amateurs fighting for no money are fighting with everything they've got. The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.

If you had to defend yourself in the street, where you had to fight...what's the goal usually? Incapacitation probably, which is basically a KO. How is an MMA fight, where fighters strive for this incapacitation, any different than in the street? Once you KO your attacker in the street, are you going to keep soccer kicking his unconscious head until he goes into a coma or dies? Same with inside an MMA cage, the Ref or even the corner, stops the fight. In the street, many times, other people, bystanders, police, etc... stops the fight or even the winner, stops attacking someone who's KO'ed, on his own.  I have around 700 videos of real fights and adding more almost every day. Only about 2-3 where someone actually died from being continuously beaten to death, and there overseas mostly, in really poor countries. Another 2-3 are from someone getting KO'ed with 1-2 punches and they crack their head on the cement and dies later at the hospital; these were unintentional deaths.

This covers the "beat the living crap out of you", the "kill you" and the "maim you" and "rape you" parts. Mugging and robbing, well that's easily resolved by just handing over your valuables, most of the time. If they didn't just suckerpunch you or surprised bashed you on the head with a brick to take your money, then they're probably not looking for a fight to begin with.


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.


100% effort! Mmm. You must be good. I reckon I can last about 45 seconds. Most of my guys slightly less. Absolutely tip top athlete ... let's say 2 minutes and that's probably overly generous. All effort is spread to take into effect the time you need to compete. How do I measure it. I get the guys to hit the big bag as hard as they can as fast as they can and I watch for when it starts to slow. Everybody paces themselves. Sprinters can give 100% for less than a minute. You and your mates must be super human.



FriedRice said:


> That's wrong. While I said "the face" for dramatic effects, I generally mean the head. But the chin is also part of the face or some to most of the chin, is. Parts of the temple can be a part of the face and a punch can certainly be on the border of both.


If you say the face I assume you mean the face. Temple is the temple chin is the chin, if you want to do it properly on a martial art forum you can be specific like stomach 5.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> How long do you think Mike Tyson's sparring partners would last if he sparred with them the same way he fought his opponents in the ring? No one in their right mind would spar full contact with full power all the time.



Are you serious? Do you know how much money you get to be Tyson's sparring partner? And he has many, many, many sparring partners. Tyson said, after he got out of jail for Rape, he had over $400 million dollars in cash, and this was in the 1990's, so that's like $700-800 million in today's money. $700 million can buy a lot of bodies for sparring. It's pretty amazing that you guy's find it so amazing that fighters sometimes to regularly spar at 100% power & intensity. Notice, I never said spar for KO's all the time. We spar light and medium also.


----------



## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> This sounds like the usual, Self Defense angle of romanticizing the usual, death match scenarios that hardly ever happens. Street fights usually ends when someone is KO'ed and are usually  a lot easier than  fighting an equally skilled competitor in MMA or other full contact sports fighting.
> 
> MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death. Do you think that an MMA fighter is not putting all of whatever power he's got in trying to throw his fist, elbows, knees, etc. into his opponent's face, head, body, etc.? Or do you think that he's only putting in 50% or even 80% and then saving that 100% power & intensity only for the streets? Especially when tens of millions of dollars can be riding on their fight. Hell, even amateurs fighting for no money are fighting with everything they've got. The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.
> 
> ...


Well if someone on the street attacks me at 100%. I'll cover and wait knowing after 30 seconds or less the guy will be spent. 

I know what you mean and I still don't agree with you. See *RTDKCMB*'s post above.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.



Sparring at 100% is not all the time, but certainly more regularly when a fight is coming up. About 2 weeks before the fight is when we tone it down and work more on cardio and such, to not risk injuries. That's why we wear headgear, etc. but injuries do happen and sometimes fighters have to pull out. 

We spar light and medium also. But even at the 70% power agreement, it usually does spike to 100% at times and then calms down. Just depends on who's sparring and against who else. Crap happens.



> The folks at the Militech gym famously did spar 100% as a regular thing, leading to lots of knock outs and injuries in training. They produced some good fighters, but I suspect they also suffered a lot of unnecessary brain damage.



This is just a common practice in fighting gyms. Boxing gyms have been doing this since ever. Combat sport is certainly a risk.  You should check out this reality show called "White Collar Brawlers" where they train White Collars noobs who never fought to Box because they have beef with someone at their work and wants to fight it out. They only have like a month or so, and starts sparring after 2 weeks of training. One guy said after his first sparring session, "it's a real fight".


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Well if someone on the street attacks me at 100%. I'll cover and wait knowing after 30 seconds or less the guy will be spent.
> 
> I know what you mean and I still don't agree with you. See *RTDKCMB*'s post above.



If an MMA fighter attacks you, I bet you'd get KO'ed with the first few strikes. But I doubt that, not gassing after 30 seconds, would be one of his problems.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> It's pretty amazing that you guy's find it so amazing that fighters sometimes to regularly spar at 100% power & intensity.


Even fighters in the UFC, on Bellator or on K-1 or Strikeforce have to pace themselves evenly. It's rare that you find people on full-steam and maximum capacity for a straight 5-minute round. Michael Bisping has excellent cardio, but even he paces himself. Strength happens in short bursts; I know powerlifters and strongmen will agree. 

You may be mistaking intensity for strength. They're different. Intensity is spirit; strength is a skill. In that sense "Intensity" is a lot closer to "focus". Strength lies elsewhere.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> 100% effort! Mmm. You must be good. I reckon I can last about 45 seconds. Most of my guys slightly less. Absolutely tip top athlete ... let's say 2 minutes and that's probably overly generous. All effort is spread to take into effect the time you need to compete. How do I measure it. I get the guys to hit the big bag as hard as they can as fast as they can and I watch for when it starts to slow. Everybody paces themselves. Sprinters can give 100% for less than a minute. You and your mates must be super human.



What is this? Like some internet CSI or something? You can't be serious in thinking that I meant that 100% means to go non-stop at 100% power and 100% intensity, continuously....and be able to keep up the same level of power and intensity in the first 5 seconds all the way through the entire 2 minutes? C'mon, this absurd.  Mayweather doesn't even do this in his $40,000,000 fights.  Sparring at 100% power/intensity just means that you're going for KO's, if that helps you understand it better.



> If you say the face I assume you mean the face. Temple is the temple chin is the chin, if you want to do it properly on a martial art forum you can be specific like stomach 5.



Ok sorry,  I'd have to be more clear next time. Carry on, inspector.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> Even fighters in the UFC, on Bellator or on K-1 or Strikeforce have to pace themselves evenly. It's rare that you find people on full-steam and maximum capacity for a straight 5-minute round. Michael Bisping has excellent cardio, but even he paces himself. Strength happens in short bursts; I know powerlifters and strongmen will agree.
> 
> You may be mistaking intensity for strength. They're different. Intensity is spirit; strength is a skill. In that sense "Intensity" is a lot closer to "focus". Strength lies elsewhere.



What I meant by 100% power sparring is to go for the KO.


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> If an MMA fighter attacks you, I bet you'd get KO'ed with the first few strikes. But I doubt that, not gassing after 30 seconds, would be one of his problems.


Big talk even for the internet. So are we talking your average MA guy or a champion like Bas Rutten. I don't like my chances with Bas but I don't have a problem with the MA guys that I teach.

But again in your post above, we've gone from 100% to 70%. That's a step in the direction of reality.


----------



## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> What is this? Like some internet CSI or something? You can't be serious in thinking that I meant that 100% means to go non-stop at 100% power and 100% intensity, continuously....and be able to keep up the same level of power and intensity in the first 5 seconds all the way through the entire 2 minutes? C'mon, this absurd.  Mayweather doesn't even do this in his $40,000,000 fights.  Sparring at 100% power/intensity just means that you're going for KO's, if that helps you understand it better.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok sorry,  I'd have to be more clear next time. Carry on, inspector.


This is the internet. I can't read your mind. All I have is what you write. You are prone to hyperbole.

But I must remember, going for a knockout is 100%. So if I apply a choke and my partner taps, that would also be 100% and if I apply an armbar where I could dislocate the elbow or shoulder, that might also be 100%.

At least we got that straight.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Well if someone on the street attacks me at 100%. I'll cover and wait knowing after 30 seconds or less the guy will be spent.
> 
> I know what you mean and I still don't agree with you. See *RTDKCMB*'s post above.



You are going to eat punches in a street fight for 30 seconds on the grounds that the other guy will get tired?

You think you can cover and avoid punches for that long?

When was your last fight?


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## K-man (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You are going to eat punches in a street fight for 30 seconds on the grounds that the other guy will get tired?
> 
> You think you can cover and avoid punches for that long?
> 
> When was your last fight?


Who said anything about the ground?


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Who said anything about the ground?



Sigh....

Grounds with an "s" it is a clever word for your reasoning.

You know grounds for divorce. That kind of thing.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Are you serious? *Do you know how much money you get to be Tyson's sparring partner?* And he has many, many, many sparring partners. Tyson said, after he got out of jail for Rape, he had over $400 million dollars in cash, and this was in the 1990's, so that's like $700-800 million in today's money. $700 million can buy a lot of bodies for sparring.



OK, I suggest you volunteer to be Mike Tyson's sparring partner and ask him to spar with you as though it is a title fight and then come back and tell us if you think the money was worth it

First you said this



FriedRice said:


> It's pretty amazing that you guy's find it so amazing that fighters sometimes to *regularly spar at 100% power & intensity*. *Notice, I never said spar for KO's all the time*. We spar light and medium also.



Then you said this:



FriedRice said:


> *Sparring at 100% power/intensity just means that you're going for KO's*, if that helps you understand it better.



Make up your mind.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> OK, I suggest you volunteer to be Mike Tyson's sparring partner and ask him to spar with you as though it is a title fight and then come back and tell us if you think the money was worth it
> 
> First you said this
> 
> ...



sparring at 100% is generally considered full contact and full intensity.

That does not mean going flat knacker the whole round or never fighting at a lesser pace.

I don't know how tyson spars. But then you don't either so I am not sure how anybody is making a point here.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 13, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> If one generalizes overly, this is true. TMA should have have certain standards that are followed across all styles... That's what makes them TMA's.





ShotoNoob said:


> On how you define traditional karate, I accede. I'm not looking at the Okinawan Masters you particularly speak of as the defining judges of what is and what is not traditional karate. We have a definitional difference.



It might help us understand you better if you defined what *you* mean by TMA in general and traditional karate specifically. From what I've read in other threads, you would seem to use the term so that it encompasses Shotokan, TKD, and whatever style you personally train, which you have said is an offshoot of Shotokan. (What is your style called, by the way?) From an historical standpoint, those are all relatively recent members of the karate family and many folks don't consider them to be that traditional. What precisely is it that you mean when you say "traditional?"


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Ok on the subject of how mike tyson spars. I wouldn't be jumping in the ring with him.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> sparring at 100% is generally considered full contact and full intensity..



Generally considered by who? You see in my school we can spar at full intensity without going full contact.



drop bear said:


> That does not mean going flat knacker the whole round or never fighting at a lesser pace.



You haven't seen one of our 1st Dan gradings.



drop bear said:


> I don't know how tyson spars. But then you don't either so I am not sure how anybody is making a point here.



The point I was making is not the point you think it was. Mike Tyson was just an example of someone you would not want to fight full on just for a training.exercise. Reread the posts from post #67 and you might understand my point a bit better.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Generally considered by who? You see in my school we can spar at full intensity without going full contact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Commonly accepted by me and the people i have trained with. Which is pretty much the meaning of commonly accepted.

The point is even if you have a different version of what 100% is. (and that is fine) this version is still legitimate.

You cant really pick semantic holes just because your idea of sparring is different. Both are allowed to be called 100% sparring.

now while i check up on what your point was about sparring mike tyson. Have a look at the video i posted of mike tyson sparring


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Commonly accepted by me and the people i have trained with. Which is pretty much the meaning of commonly accepted.



The meaning of commonly accepted is commonly accepted by everyone, if you wanted to be specific to the group you are referring to you should have said so. Anyway - semantics, not important.



drop bear said:


> now while i check up on what your point was about sparring mike tyson. Have a look at the video i posted of mike tyson sparring



I already watched the video, I would not want to step in the ring with him either.


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## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> The meaning of commonly accepted is commonly accepted by everyone, if you wanted to be specific to the group you are referring to you should have said so. Anyway - semantics, not important.
> 
> 
> 
> I already watched the video, I would not want to step in the ring with him either.



Accepted by everyone is universally accepted. Not commonly accepted. I have already specified.

The group is pretty big by the way.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The group is pretty big by the way.


I have a bigger group.


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## MaxRob (Mar 13, 2015)

There is a lot of vermin and sh.. And sick psychopaths  out there wanting to take advantage of you for one way or another to submit you to serious damaging violence.
The reason I study and practice Martial Arts and related very important situational self defense techniques is to protect myself and those I love.
To me fighting is the last thing I want to do, I am a fast runner and train heavily in cardio respiratory ,jumping,flexing going out in the field with an instructor to improvise pure self defense techniques.
There are no rules here all is allowed in battle for your life or where harm may come to you.
I subscribe to Adriano Emperado's Kajukenbo  because it has taught me to make pain my friend and strike back,(  ok that is not for all but those of us with a v high genetic pain threshold it works) using speed which gives one momentum to the square of velocity .Speed is very important in strikes for me, and I constantly practice this
Krav Maga is very situational so it fits with my defensive armoury, as many throws from judo/ jujitsu, and related locks.
Self defense for me is not about kicking oneself around a ring with limitation of moves and strikes imposed by law, but using and practicing all that, use of improvised weapons, the environment has many, wherever you are, in a bar there are bottles of glass...
In a billiard room there are sticks and hard balls, out in the open there are stones, and so on  I  try to practice with all this, tying to keep a potential attacker as far from you as possible and being able to hit , then get way safely.
As far as weapons , I like the flickblade knife and even a firearm but fear use of excessive force using these, however in a very life threatening situation I would use them,,.. considering I also live in a Country with high crime rates and of recent terrorist attacks so I need practicing avoidance and awareness and be very vigilant.
To know how to fight for me is very important in a martial art particularly if you only use it for real defense.,but the variations are infinite
What is it I call fighting... Using all means available to you to defend yourself in the so many varied situations that can arise and not be afraid to deliver maximum damage in parallel with the seriousness of the attack on you.


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## Instructor (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> This sounds like the usual, Self Defense angle of romanticizing the usual, death match scenarios that hardly ever happens. Street fights usually ends when someone is KO'ed and are usually  a lot easier than  fighting an equally skilled competitor in MMA or other full contact sports fighting.
> 
> MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death. Do you think that an MMA fighter is not putting all of whatever power he's got in trying to throw his fist, elbows, knees, etc. into his opponent's face, head, body, etc.? Or do you think that he's only putting in 50% or even 80% and then saving that 100% power & intensity only for the streets? Especially when tens of millions of dollars can be riding on their fight. Hell, even amateurs fighting for no money are fighting with everything they've got. The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.
> 
> ...




When I was attacked in 1990 it was in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd of people.  My attacker beat me savagely till all I could do try to keep my hands in front of my head on the ground.  The crowd watched....  My facial bones broke.  My jaw broke.  I went unconscious.  When I awoke three days later in the hospital they told me that he was still hitting my unconscious face and head when the guard finally ran up and pulled him off me several minutes after I was out cold.

This person abandoned reason and was in a state of uncontrolled rage.  There is nothing romantic at all about what happened to me in that real life fight.  It was scary and painful and terrible and required years of personal counseling and martial arts training for me to overcome that terror.  

Yeah so, nothing like that ever happens in MY martial arts class.... We spar.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> When I was attacked in 1990 it was in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd of people.  My attacker beat me savagely till all I could do try to keep my hands in front of my head on the ground.  The crowd watched....  My facial bones broke.  My jaw broke.  I went unconscious.  When I awoke three days later in the hospital they told me that he was still hitting my unconscious face and head when the guard finally ran up and pulled him off me several minutes after I was out cold.
> 
> This person abandoned reason and was in a state of uncontrolled rage.  There is nothing romantic at all about what happened to me in that real life fight.  It was scary and painful and terrible and required years of personal counseling and martial arts training for me to overcome that terror.
> 
> Yeah so, nothing like that ever happens in MY martial arts class.... We spar.




I didn't want to 'like' this post because that sounds wrong and none of the others you can click on seemed right either, so I'll say instead _thank you for your post_. It can't have been easy to share this. I'm very pleased you are okay now though.

I think you are right about the 'romantic' thing, too many are glorifying 'on the street' and 'street fighting' as well as thinking that going full contact or 100% in a training environment is ever going to be the same as an attack by what is basically an enemy intent on destroying you.


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## Instructor (Mar 13, 2015)

You are welcome Tez.  Sometimes it's important to cut the crap.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> When I was attacked in 1990 it was in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd of people.  My attacker beat me savagely till all I could do try to keep my hands in front of my head on the ground.  The crowd watched....  My facial bones broke.  My jaw broke.  I went unconscious.  When I awoke three days later in the hospital they told me that he was still hitting my unconscious face and head when the guard finally ran up and pulled him off me several minutes after I was out cold.
> 
> This person abandoned reason and was in a state of uncontrolled rage.  There is nothing romantic at all about what happened to me in that real life fight.  It was scary and painful and terrible and required years of personal counseling and martial arts training for me to overcome that terror.
> 
> Yeah so, nothing like that ever happens in MY martial arts class.... We spar.


A friend of mine was kicked in the groin and thrown off the second floor of a block of flats and then had his groin repeatedly stomped on so I hear ya.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Big talk even for the internet. So are we talking your average MA guy or a champion like Bas Rutten. I don't like my chances with Bas but I don't have a problem with the MA guys that I teach.
> 
> But again in your post above, we've gone from 100% to 70%. That's a step in the direction of reality.



I bet most MMA guys in your weight class with at least 5 fights shouldn't have a problem with you as you don't seem to coming from a standpoint of someone who fights. I mean what other talk is there? We're over the internet and not next door to each other, so I'm merely speculating based on what information you've given me.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> This is the internet. I can't read your mind. All I have is what you write. You are prone to hyperbole.
> 
> But I must remember, going for a knockout is 100%. So if I apply a choke and my partner taps, that would also be 100% and if I apply an armbar where I could dislocate the elbow or shoulder, that might also be 100%.
> 
> At least we got that straight.



I didn't think that what I said in terms of going 100% power & intensity, was that difficult to understand. But now I must remember that you're not a fighter from a fighting gym but rather a Self Defense/TMA guy. Although I would think that someone advanced, would be be able to differentiate such.  But if you want to talk about hyperbole, for you to think that I meant going at 100% power at a non-stop pace from the start to the end of a 5 minute round or even 2 minute round, is just wild and wacky. I mean, who the heck even fights like that?


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> OK, I suggest you volunteer to be Mike Tyson's sparring partner and ask him to spar with you as though it is a title fight and then come back and tell us if you think the money was worth it



Ok so now you're just getting mad because I refuted your argument. There are videos of Mike Tyson whacking the hell out of his sparring partners on YouTube. And this was from an era where not everyone had an iPhone to record everything they see. Plenty of other Boxers from Pro to Amateur, going hard for KO's in training. And in general, Pros don't allow people to film them. Just because this scares you and you're ignorant of such common practice of a fighting gym, doesn't mean that it's a fairy tale. 



> First you said this
> 
> Then you said this:
> 
> Make up your mind.



Not sure how else I can explain it to you. Puppet show maybe?


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Ok so now you're just getting mad because I refuted your argument. There are videos of Mike Tyson whacking the hell out of his sparring partners on YouTube. And this was from an era where not everyone had an iPhone to record everything they see. Plenty of other Boxers from Pro to Amateur, going hard for KO's in training. And in general, Pros don't allow people to film them. Just because this scares you and you're ignorant of such common practice of a fighting gym, doesn't mean that it's a fairy tale.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure how else I can explain it to you. Puppet show maybe?



Yes, he sparred that hard when we has competing and had a fight upcoming.

You've had several Boxers and MMA guys tell you in this thread that isn't typical in weekly training unless it's the week before a bout. 

Sparring that hard every single day of training is a good way to not be in pgood enough physical condition for your bout.

You can't perform with a concussion and 3 broken ribs.

Not understanding this makes you seem like you don't actually train and compete in boxing/MMA.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I don't know how tyson spars. But then you don't either so I am not sure how anybody is making a point here.













Just two of a few. Back in those days, there were no iPhones so it was rare for people to film everything. They had giant VCR videocameras that used VHS tapes or Beta, and they were humongous and cost like $4000 when they first came out. But as a general rule, most Pro fighters didn't allow liberal filming of their training, especially someone at the top like Tyson.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> The point I was making is not the point you think it was. Mike Tyson was just an example of someone you would not want to fight full on just for a training.exercise. Reread the posts from post #67 and you might understand my point a bit better.



edumacation:


























Mayweather Verbally Abuses Sparring Partner - YouTube


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I already watched the video, I would not want to step in the ring with him either.



Then why do you keep insisting that Boxers never spars for KO's and that specifically, Mike Tyson, never did?


----------



## Instructor (Mar 13, 2015)

Here is an example of someone who really had to fight Mike Tyson:  Robin Givens Talks Ray Rice Domestic Abuse Case Mike Tyson Marriage - Us Weekly


----------



## Instructor (Mar 13, 2015)

Givens recalled one particular harrowing incident. "I remember being dragged down a hallway in a hotel in the Bahamas on a night I thought I was really going to die,"


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> When I was attacked in 1990 it was in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd of people.  My attacker beat me savagely till all I could do try to keep my hands in front of my head on the ground.  The crowd watched....  My facial bones broke.  My jaw broke.  I went unconscious.  When I awoke three days later in the hospital they told me that he was still hitting my unconscious face and head when the guard finally ran up and pulled him off me several minutes after I was out cold.
> 
> This person abandoned reason and was in a state of uncontrolled rage.  There is nothing romantic at all about what happened to me in that real life fight.  It was scary and painful and terrible and required years of personal counseling and martial arts training for me to overcome that terror.
> 
> Yeah so, nothing like that ever happens in MY martial arts class.... We spar.




I'm sorry that happened to you, but I never said that it never can happen. Your incident is very rare, based on my research and data. There's still plenty of romanticizing such scenarios going on in SD classes though. Because that's the schtick, to say how it's so real and somehow superior than Sports fighting should it happens in the street. In reality, the chances of such happening is very, very rare. I take Self Defense very seriously, that's why I legally, EDC a 9mm and 2 knives w/1 being a 5.5" razor sharp blade that's like a mini katana.

The irony here is, what really prepares someone for such a street beatdown like you've experienced, is to train as a Sports Fighter and to actual spar for KO's and further, fight full contact in the ring or cage. An experienced Fighter will have the best chance in such scenarios.  Any good Fighter, would have paid their dues of being on the receiving end of beatdowns, many, many times over. It takes getting hit in the face quite a lot and for many years, to get used to it and to even enjoy it.


----------



## Instructor (Mar 13, 2015)

Rare huh?  Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice, I'm not sure why you think it's amusing that I sympathised with someone on being badly hurt, surely it's not a laughing matter that someone is hurt.


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## Tez3 (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Rare huh?  Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?



I haven't  been attacked as such but have had people try to have a go when I was working, as part of that work I've dealt with people who have been attacked though and it's not as rare as some think.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Yes, he sparred that hard when we has competing and had a fight upcoming.
> 
> You've had several Boxers and MMA guys tell you in this thread that isn't typical in weekly training unless it's the week before a bout.
> 
> ...



First, show me where I said that sparring for KO's should and must take place, every week? It could though, and would on the gym. My gym, we don't spar for KO's every week. But show me where I said this or you just made it up. 

Second, you're wrong about this 100% power sparring being "the week before a bout" being the norm. Because this is crazy and risks injuries. It's 2 weeks and more, before the bout that such hard sparring takes place. The final week is usually heavy cardio and techniques. I wonder who doesn't train and compete in boxing/MMA.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Yes, he sparred that hard when we has competing and had a fight upcoming.
> 
> You've had several Boxers and MMA guys tell you in this thread that isn't typical in weekly training unless it's the week before a bout.
> 
> ...



Actually I know a guy.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I haven't  been attacked as such but have had people try to have a go when I was working, as part of that work I've dealt with people who have been attacked though and it's not as rare as some think.



I was yelled at once.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Rare huh?  Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?



I have, 3 years of Boxing didn't do squat. Broke my hand one guys jaw, his buddy. Grabbed me from behind and slammed me into wall so hard it broke my nose. Then he just threw me to the ground and the kicked me until the owner  and a couple employees of the store we were outside of came out and stopped them.

Total damage was a cracked hip, 3 broken ribs, a cut Above my eye, and a broken nose.

Sport fighting did nothing for me.

Maybe MMA would have helped me more, but even if I'd tried to submit one of them, the other would have just beat me while I was trying.

These weren't guys my size, these were 2 men twice my size and build. One of whom got the drop on me because I focused too much on the guy in front of me, like I did in the ring.


After that, I avoided that part of Indianapolis unless I absolutely needed to be there. When I did, I took count of everyone around me and where they were


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## Instructor (Mar 13, 2015)

Thanks for sharing Drose.  Glad you are still with us.  Regarding size and numbers, in the real world people usually attack when they know they will win, i.e. size and numbers.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Here is an example of someone who really had to fight Mike Tyson:  Robin Givens Talks Ray Rice Domestic Abuse Case Mike Tyson Marriage - Us Weekly



Thanks for proving my point that such incidents vs. Robin Givens wasn't even that bad compared to what Tyson did to his opponents in the ring. If Tyson threw everything he had at Givens, like he did to his opponents in the ring, he would knock Given's head, clean off. I'd take domestic abuse slaps to the face that are held back like Givens endured, any day over just a full jab from Tyson, and thank my lucky stars afterward.

Same with Ray Rice.  That's just a 1 shot KO and he stopped. No continuing of beatings here. In the MMA cage, the other guy is trying to put his full fist, knees, elbows, etc. at 100% power into my face and body until I'm incapacitated. And he's going to hit a lot harder and better than Ray Rice.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Thanks for sharing Drose.  Glad you are still with us.  Regarding size and numbers, in the real world people usually attack when they know they will win, i.e. size and numbers.



Thank you, 

For me that a defining moment. I realized Sport fighting had _flaws. _Something my coach wasn't very clear about with his "you'll defend yourself just fine!" speeches. 

After that I started cross training as much as I could. To me, MMA as a sport isn't the important part. It's the cross training, contact, and pressure. Where I can get guys together and we can mix it up. We can wrestle with punches, do 2 v1 drills, and things MMA coaches probably won't make you do because they're training you for the ring

You don't need sport fighting for any of that, and training for a specific thing can hurt you


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## toddfletcher (Mar 13, 2015)

elder999 said:


> People do martial arts for a lot of reasons.
> 
> What are yours? Is "fighting" important in that art? What is it you call "fighting?"



After 25 years of off and on training in four different styles (OhDoKwan, So-Hwa KungFi, combat applied kenpo, judo), I train for #1) Self-Discipline #2) Personal Defense #3) Health #4) Social interaction. So even with 'fighting' at the core of why we train, it comes in second on my priority list.

As far as how important, at my age I am beginning to see my training as a way to improve the quality of my life with age, but we should always be able to return to the foundation concept of ability to fight. Even TMA reliance on belt requirements can become a stumbling block to innovation in what is actually effective in fighting. My master always called it the 'master's dilemma'. Training to fight leads to some students losing. How to do this without causing a student to quit training.

My definition of 'fighting'. Ability to stop someone from doing harm to you. Also known as the 'dominance struggle'.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I have, 3 years of Boxing didn't do squat. Broke my hand one guys jaw, his buddy. Grabbed me from behind and slammed me into wall so hard it broke my nose. Then he just threw me to the ground and the kicked me until the owner  and a couple employees of the store we were outside of came out and stopped them.
> 
> Total damage was a cracked hip, 3 broken ribs, a cut Above my eye, and a broken nose.
> 
> Sport fighting did nothing for me.



And what would 3 years of anything else besides Boxing would have done for you?  And 3 years of Boxing can mean a lot of different things in terms of experience and capabilities. There are plenty of people in the MMA gyms that I float around to that are nowhere close to being  fighters, even after many years of  training. Many train for exercise, get & stay in shape, as a hobby, etc. and don't even like to spar hard.  It would help. How much it would have helped in this situation of yours, depends on many variables. Any kind of training helps. Even Track & Field would help if you were able to run away, then they wouldn't likely have the speed nor endurance to catch you. All I'm saying is that training as a fighter, and actually fighting, preferably MMA is the best, but not the only way about it...nor is it a guarantee to save you during such or any attacks.


----------



## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

while i havent been jumped by 2 guys since, Ive been able to handle myself better with TSD than I ever did when I was competing with Boxing.

  I now know standing grappling, and most important, how to get out of the exact  bear hug he threw me in. 

Observation and awareness was drilled into me since day one, I wouldnt have let him get the drop on me.

i know how to handle folks 100 lbs larger than me, because thats who I work with full contact every time I train.

Techniques that are illegal in boxing or MMA are natural for me now

When both was use similar contact and methods, the most helpful is the one with the least limitations. Even MMA has a good list of illegal moves


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Thank you,
> 
> After that I started cross training as much as I could. To me, MMA as a sport isn't the important part. It's the cross training, contact, and pressure. Where I can get guys together and we can mix it up. We can wrestle with punches, do 2 v1 drills, and things MMA coaches probably won't make you do because they're training you for the ring
> 
> You don't need sport fighting for any of that, and training for a specific thing can hurt you



How does pretending to hit someone or hitting them lightly, 1 on 1 or 2 on 1....more realistic than MMA training for a competition fight, where you're getting punched and grappled from light to full power and sometimes for  KO's? And when you're in the cage, it's certainly at 100% power for the KO. 

I've dropped in on a few diffferent Krav Maga gyms during their advanced level sparring only class. They do a warmup exercise and then it's all sparring. First 1 on 1 then 2 on 1  and 3 on 1.  2 on 1 is pretty easy as I just keep the weaker one in between me and the tougher guy, circle and pick my shots. 3 on 1 is more challenging and that's where I have to drop 1 or 2 and then the last one gets reluctant. Now this one particular Krav gym has a legit MMA program with about 2-3 fighters who will   kick my butt, not easily but they should beat me. But these MMA fighters don't bother training in the KM classes it seems, they only train in the BJJ, MT and MMA class.


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## Drose427 (Mar 13, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> How does pretending to hit someone or hitting them lightly, 1 on 1 or 2 on 1....more realistic than MMA training for a competition fight, where you're getting punched and grappled from light to full power and sometimes for  KO's? And when you're in the cage, it's certainly at 100% power for the KO.
> 
> I've dropped in on a few diffferent Krav Maga gyms during their advanced level sparring only class. They do a warmup exercise and then it's all sparring. First 1 on 1 then 2 on 1  and 3 on 1.  2 on 1 is pretty easy as I just keep the weaker one in between me and the tougher guy, circle and pick my shots. 3 on 1 is more challenging and that's where I have to drop 1 or 2 and then the last one gets reluctant. Now this one particular Krav gym has a legit MMA program with about 2-3 fighters who will   kick my butt, not easily but they should beat me. But these MMA fighters don't bother training in the KM classes it seems, they only train in the BJJ, MT and MMA class.



A lot of schools break nose, lips and bleed in their classes. Full contact when doing SD is extremely common.  The idea that only MMMA or Boxing uses full contact methods shows you have had little experience in TMA.


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## FriedRice (Mar 13, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Techniques that are illegal in boxing or MMA are natural for me now




Punching someone in the face never ceased to work for me, for both the ring and the street.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> edumacation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wasn't actually talking to you but you should try rereading the posts so that you don't miss the point entirely again..


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I mean we train a defence that can pretty reliably get us cut to ribbons in training vs a rubber knife. From a guy with almost no training.
> 
> But the technique still works because reasons.


If you are getting cut to ribbons defending against a knife then the defense is not working.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Ok so now you're just getting mad because I refuted your argument. Just because this scares you and you're ignorant of such common practice of a fighting gym, doesn't mean that it's a fairy tale.



You are ascribing emotions to me that are not in play here.



FriedRice said:


> Not sure how else I can explain it to you. Puppet show maybe?



And now you are getting snarky because I do not share your sentiments.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> A lot of schools break nose, lips and bleed in their classes.


I have seen all of those injuries in non-contact sparring.


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## Drose427 (Mar 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I have seen all of those injuries in non-contact sparring.



I have as well, but mentioning the hard contact drills schools do contested his sentiment that TMA's only do Light or no contact stuff. 

Semi Contact Point Karate from the 70s showe'd even without being 100%, folks can still whoop the heck out of each other


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them,


You mean once?


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> MMA fighting is indeed, trying to beat someone to death.



I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. I don't know what kind of MMA matches you have been watching but that is not what is going on.



FriedRice said:


> The only reason no one dies is because the fight gets stopped and it's over.



The only reason no one dies is because of all of the safety measures they have in place. If your comment was in any way accurate then MMA bouts would be banned just about everywhere.



FriedRice said:


> Thanks for proving my point that such incidents vs. Robin Givens wasn't even that bad compared to what Tyson did to his opponents in the ring.



Maybe you should tell that to Robin Givens.



FriedRice said:


> If an MMA fighter attacks you, I bet you'd get KO'ed with the first few strikes
> 
> I bet most MMA guys in your weight class with at least 5 fights shouldn't have a problem with you as you don't seem to coming from a standpoint of someone who fights.



You seem to me to be of the opinion that any MMA fighter with even a modicum of experience can beat any TMA guy in seconds which is quite frankly naive and ignorant.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Rare huh?  Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?


Just a few days ago one of our junior black belts was attacked. A girl grabbed her hair and yanked it down hard, she (the junior black belt) just kicked her in the ribs with a front kick and that was the end of it.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 14, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Rare huh?  Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?



Not tonight, but the night is young... I did have one guy tell me he was going to assault me, but he changed his mind.
It's mid-March right now, and just going from memory, I'd say I've been attacked 5 times this year. It could be more, but those are the ones I remember.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It might help us understand you better if you defined what *you* mean by TMA in general and traditional karate specifically.


|
Please see my reply to "ZERO" over @ "MMA and Similar Arts are not True Martial Arts."  @ Page 3.


Tony Dismukes said:


> From what I've read in other threads, you would seem to use the term so that it encompasses Shotokan, TKD, and whatever style you personally train, which you have said is an offshoot of Shotokan. (What is your style called, by the way?)


|
Right.  BTW: Have to keep some secrets....


Tony Dismukes said:


> From an historical standpoint, those are all relatively recent members of the karate family and many folks don't consider them to be that traditional. What precisely is it that you mean when you say "traditional?"


|
right.  'cause they are looking at outward form versus foundation.  Again--see the above-listed T.  Read the Gichin Funakoshi material.  He's an academic type individual and so holds little appeal for many aggressive, physically-centered individuals.  Yet he has a whole world of the most popular traditional karate followers on the planet. Much of this is due to heavy promotion by the JKA, other orgs. 
> Yet still, astounding for a smallish, bookish academic.
>  I personally don't read a lot about him.  It's the foundational principles he puts in his curriculum that are so very valuable and on target.
>  His interpretation is by no means the best or most sophisticated one.  He's by no means a genius, imo.
>  He just sheds light in a very helpful way.  And that's the genius.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you are getting cut to ribbons defending against a knife then the defense is not working.



By definition. 

Knife defence in the sense that you can reliably stop a physical attack is pretty unreliable.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2015)

Instructor said:


> When I was attacked in 1990 it was in broad daylight in the middle of a crowd of people.  My attacker beat me savagely till all I could do try to keep my hands in front of my head on the ground.  The crowd watched....  My facial bones broke.  My jaw broke.  I went unconscious.  When I awoke three days later in the hospital they told me that he was still hitting my unconscious face and head when the guard finally ran up and pulled him off me several minutes after I was out cold.
> 
> This person abandoned reason and was in a state of uncontrolled rage.  There is nothing romantic at all about what happened to me in that real life fight.  It was scary and painful and terrible and required years of personal counseling and martial arts training for me to overcome that terror.
> 
> Yeah so, nothing like that ever happens in MY martial arts class.... We spar.



I'm glad you're okay, brother.


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Knife defence in the sense that you can reliably stop a physical attack is pretty unreliable.



Now that's a sentence to marvel at.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Now that's a sentence to marvel at.



Well it is. And it frustrates me because i want to be good at knife defence but if I di a test on day one with a rubber knife and did a test after five years with the same guy I am not sure how much more successful I would be after five years of training.


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well it is. And it frustrates me because i want to be good at knife defence but if I di a test on day one with a rubber knife and did a test after five years with the same guy I am not sure how much more successful I would be after five years of training.



Well your original sentence made no sense.

There are no knife defences where you won't get cut, the trick is to minimise the amount of times you get cut and make sure you aren't cut anywhere vital. It's a dirty business and the very best knife defence is not to be there.
I was taught to fight with a knife before I learnt any defences, it's a useful skill, as is knife throwing.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well your original sentence made no sense.
> 
> There are no knife defences where you won't get cut, the trick is to minimise the amount of times you get cut and make sure you aren't cut anywhere vital. It's a dirty business and the very best knife defence is not to be there.
> I was taught to fight with a knife before I learnt any defences, it's a useful skill, as is knife throwing.



Before we start i trained knife/knife defence. Taught it full time for a year and have fought guys with knives who were really out to get me.

But everybody i have ever seen spar unarmed with knives basically gets eviscerated. And afterward you get the consolation of minimised cuts or that in the street the knife attacker wont be going as hard or be as trained.

Live training makes this glaringly obvious.

So why is knife defence useful when the best defence is not too be there?

Train not being there.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 14, 2015)

If you want to find out if what you do works bring in a bunch of guys from the street or loal bars and have them have a go at you or your students. If knives are to be used make sure to make them something that will not kill anyone but will leave proof of it  being used.  NO the students and you are not allowed to know if any weapon is going to be used. The session well be brutal but in the end you'll know if what you do works.  You will also know if you need fighting in your school to improve what you do


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> If you want to find out if what you do works bring in a bunch of guys from the street or loal bars and have them have a go at you or your students. If knives are to be used make sure to make them something that will not kill anyone but will leave proof of it  being used.  NO the students and you are not allowed to know if any weapon is going to be used. The session well be brutal but in the end you'll know if what you do works.  You will also know if you need fighting in your school to improve what you do



We have done that with our local rugby team. Used shoot boxing (16 ounce gloves but with takedowns.)

Works quite well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It might help us understand you better if you defined what *you* mean by TMA in general and traditional karate specifically.





ShotoNoob said:


> Please see my reply to "ZERO" over @ "MMA and Similar Arts are not True Martial Arts." @ Page 3.





ShotoNoob said:


> Here's what I tell students (or instructors) that are willing to take input. Simply, IN TRADITIONAL KARATE, MENTAL DRIVES PHYSICAL. Just as you state, the physical expresses the action, but it is the mental capability that powers that physical expression. PERIOD.



Yeah ... can you clarify how "mental drives physical" more in what you call "traditional karate" than in any other art? Can you break down what that even means?

Let's look a bit at how "mental" and "physical" work in _any_ art for _any_ human being in the real world:

1) You practice various basic physical skills and movements with conscious awareness. With sufficient repetition, you build new neural pathways in your brain for the execution of these skills and movements. Once fully formed, these pathways become automated at a level below your normal conscious awareness - you no longer have to think "push off my rear foot, rotate my rear hip forward, tighten my core, transfer the rotation into my shoulder, extend my arm, tighten my fist, etc". You just think "reverse punch" and those neural pathways fire off and send the signals to make your muscles execute the punch.

2) You consciously practice higher level perceptual and tactical skills which may make use of the previously mentioned physical skills. You might practice getting off angle when your opponent punches and punching back when he drops his guard. With enough repetition, the details of this also become automated below conscious awareness. You find yourself starting to move off angle as your opponent begins his strike because you already subconsciously recognized the "tell" where he dropped his shoulder or changed his stance slightly before punching. When you strike back, you automatically aim for the targets that your opponent has left uncovered. All this happens due to more complex neural pathways that have been developed through practice. You don't have to consciously think about it any more than you have to think about the shapes of the letters on the page when you read. (If you are still consciously thinking about these elements, then you are probably not reacting fast enough to execute these skills in a real fight.)

3) You train to handle certain neurochemical effects of a real fight - adrenaline, fear, anger, pain, fatigue. This involves a highly complex interaction between your brain, your muscles, and your endocrine system. With experience, you learn to get better at overcoming the deleterious effects of these reactions and utilizing the positive effects.

4) While all the above is going on, you are hopefully building physical strength and endurance as well. this is primarily a "physical" process (muscles, tendons, bones, circulatory system), although there is some training of the neural pathways involved in pure strength training as well.

5) When it comes time for the fight, your conscious mind is in charge of the big picture - "keep an eye on the guy in front of me, circle for the exit, but don't lose track of his buddy that's hanging back" You might devote cognitive resources to the elements mentioned in #3 above - "relax, keep the breath calm, don't get frustrated". You might make conscious tactical decisions - "his buddy is cutting me off from the door - as soon as he gets in range, blitz him with punches, then disengage and run."

All of this is mental (the brain) driving physical (the muscles, although the circulatory and endocrine systems get involved too). (Technically, there's a complex feedback loop going on between the different systems, but let's keep it simple for now.)

If by "mental", you mean the _conscious_ mind, then it gets a bit fuzzier. The conscious mind is like the CEO of a vast company, sitting at headquarters receiving quarterly reports and setting out strategic plans. 99.99% of what is going on in the company is beyond the executive's direct perception or control. He has to just trust that the various departments are doing their jobs. If your conscious mind is trying to micro-manage your body on the details of how to throw a punch during a fight, then you've already lost.

So, to return to my question, how does any of this work differently in what you are calling "traditional karate" (Shotokan & TKD & your secret art) versus any other martial art?


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2015)

The majority of stabbings here aren't from knife fights, they are slash /stab and run. Often it takes a while before the person who is stabbed realises it. Knife 'fights' are quite rare with the chances of being able to defend yourself quite small. If someone is waving a knife around the best thing to do is to get out the best you can.
The standard defence is usually taught with the person holding the knife in front of you either about to stab down or slash across, it's never from the back in a sly attack, never slash and run and never with a hidden knife brought out to be stabbed as you grapple, face off or whatever.


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## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> If you are getting cut to ribbons defending against a knife then the defense is not working.



Or that your defense training is way too fake compared to his, being way more realistic.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> You are ascribing emotions to me that are not in play here.



Because you've made no argument other then telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson". If that's not getting your feelings hurt, I dunno what is.



> And now you are getting snarky because I do not share your sentiments.



Oh so now I'm being snarky but you're not by telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson" as your response? Stop being a hypocrite.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> You mean once?



"Punching someone in the face, as hard as possible and as many times it takes to KO them,"


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I'm sorry but that is complete rubbish. I don't know what kind of MMA matches you have been watching but that is not what is going on.



You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Go read it again.



> The only reason no one dies is because of all of the safety measures they have in place. If your comment was in any way accurate then MMA bouts would be banned just about everywhere.



You still don't understand what I said.



> Maybe you should tell that to Robin Givens.



Maybe you should go "spar Mike Tyson".



> You seem to me to be of the opinion that any MMA fighter with even a modicum of experience can beat any TMA guy in seconds which is quite frankly naive and ignorant.



Now you're just making up what I didn't even say.


----------



## FriedRice (Mar 14, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> If you want to find out if what you do works bring in a bunch of guys from the street or loal bars and have them have a go at you or your students. If knives are to be used make sure to make them something that will not kill anyone but will leave proof of it  being used.  NO the students and you are not allowed to know if any weapon is going to be used. The session well be brutal but in the end you'll know if what you do works.  You will also know if you need fighting in your school to improve what you do




This is a good form of weapons training right here, although still not even close to  perfect as there's no thrusting allowed:  




This is my EDC blade in the Tanto 5.5" version:



    that I shadowbox with at  least an hour a week with.  MMA footwork and Boxing hand speed mostly. Slight contact with it will cause massive damage. This is why cops will open fire and empty their 17-19 round mags on someone with a blade within 15-20 feet w/o much warnings. Even against someone untrained with weapons, going against a knife w/barehands is just crazy.


----------



## K-man (Mar 14, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Well it is. And it frustrates me because i want to be good at knife defence but if I di a test on day one with a rubber knife and did a test after five years with the same guy I am not sure how much more successful I would be after five years of training.


We train against knife every session using real knives (blunt of course). Even after years of training you become familiar with the techniques and movements to the point that it is second nature, but it is still not a reliable defence. Most training you see is against specific attacks, straight thrust, ice pick, slash, backslash etc. That's fine, and part if the training, but very few places train against a knife that is constantly moving around or the frenzied attack. I wouldn't trust any training, short of a firearm at ten paces, against a guy who knows how to handle a knife. The only reliable defence is to get away. Hopefully none of us will ever have to put our training to the test.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah ... can you clarify how "mental drives physical" more in what you call "traditional karate" than in any other art? Can you break down what that even means?


|
Well, that's a very good rendition.  I have a different emphasis on the CEO analogy.
|
Like a CEO of kumite, I am very conscious about what is going on and what I need to do.  I am extremely deliberate in my actions.  Extremely.  I used the concept of KIME to illustrate this.  KIME is strongly emphasized in the original Gichin Funakoshi curriculum.  KIME is not the whole.  There's other posters @ the "State of Mind" that expound & expand on the mental discipline dimension, some referring to the term, "Mental Clarity."  The mental discipline dimension of traditional karate is what powers it's effectiveness beyond the more reflexive and instinctive skills you largely refer to.
|
I don't instantly smash boards with reflexes, etc., I smash them with conscious, deliberate precision which I can adjust by KIME.
|
I'll give a really great example in the history of full contact karate fighting to illustrate the complete lack of KIME, despite a complement of the more instinctive abilities, in my comment below.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Mar 14, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Well, that's a very good rendition.  I have a different emphasis on the CEO analogy.
> |
> *Here's my follow up to my post just above*...


|
THE JOE LEWIS VS. SHOTOKAN KARATE STYLIST--GREG BAINES.
|
Greg Baines was very powerful physically, perhaps more so than Joe Lewis.  Greg Baines was a 2nd degree black-belt in Shotokan karate and had mowed down all opponents.  In the match with Joe Lewis, Greg Baines experience changed.
|
Round 2, essentially, Joe Lewis using his JKD mobility and a Bruce Lee tactic of going low then high to the head--a double hook, KO'd Baines on his feet and put him away with Baines now defenseless.
|
Joe Lewis recounted that Baines did not seem to hit really hard that day, for whatever reason.  Moreover, Baines (Lewis said), tried to react to Joe Lewis's offense, but could not really mount a defense, let alone an offense.
|
Joe Lewis credited his win to the conditioning & tactics taught him by Bruce Lee.
|
The first great lesson in this video if you can still find it, is Full Contact Shotokan Karate Champion Powerhouse Greg Baines couldn't begin to muster an ippon karate kumite defense & counter to a simple boxing combo (albeit one performed by the a super-super athlete, Joe Lewis).
|
Question.  Where was KIME on the part of Greg Baines?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 14, 2015)

K-man said:


> We train against knife every session using real knives (blunt of course). Even after years of training you become familiar with the techniques and movements to the point that it is second nature, but it is still not a reliable defence. Most training you see is against specific attacks, straight thrust, ice pick, slash, backslash etc. That's fine, and part if the training, but very few places train against a knife that is constantly moving around or the frenzied attack. I wouldn't trust any training, short of a firearm at ten paces, against a guy who knows how to handle a knife. The only reliable defence is to get away. Hopefully none of us will ever have to put our training to the test.



So if we don't get any meaningful result out of the training. Mabye we are training in a flawed manner.

have you ever considered just scrapping it? 

Train knife defence under a completely different context.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 14, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Or that your defense training is way too fake compared to his, being way more realistic.


Or that neither of you spend enough time on the basic defenses and just try straight for the frenzy and end up being sloppy and ineffective with your technique. Or that you in particular don't have a clue what you are talking about.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Because you've made no argument other then telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson". If that's not getting your feelings hurt, I dunno what is.
> 
> 
> Oh so now I'm being snarky but you're not by telling me to "go spar Mike Tyson" as your response? Stop being a hypocrite.


 If you look straight up and squint your eyes you may just see the point which is sailing far over your head. 

Since you seem to be having trouble with basic concepts I will try to explain one more time, this time from the beginning:

First K-man said:


K-man said:


> To me that is far more realistic than sport sparring.



Then you said:


FriedRice said:


> What kind of "sport sparring". TMA tippy-tappy sport sparring or 100% power, in Boxing gym, sparring to KO your partner?



Then Tony Dismukes said


Tony Dismukes said:


> I have seen folks sparring in the ring at 100%, but it's not the norm at most places. Usually it happens when egos or tempers get out of control. It's not the best way to learn and is a good way to get injured before you get to actual competition. Most boxers have enough sense to save that level of intensity for the actual match.



Then Drop bear said:


drop bear said:


> huh?
> 
> plenty of tmas spar. Very few don't.
> 
> ...



To which K-man replied:


K-man said:


> Show me one TMA that spars in the way you mean, that is sport sparring.



And then you again:


FriedRice said:


> Are you serious? How else would fighters train for their fights? You need to go when the fight team trains, not the cardio kickboxing class.




Then I mentioned Tyson.

The entire point is that no one spars at their absolute maximum as they would in a title fight or a self defense situation in their regular training all the time every time. Mike Tyson is JUST AN EXAMPLE of someone who would go through a lot of sparring partners if he did that.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 15, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Or that neither of you spend enough time on the basic defenses and just try straight for the frenzy and end up being sloppy and ineffective with your technique. Or that you in particular don't have a clue what you are talking about.



So you have the high percentage unarmed vs knife defence?

What is the secret?


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## Drose427 (Mar 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you have the high percentage unarmed vs knife defence?
> 
> What is the secret?




There isn't one...

2 rules.

1. You're gonna get cut, don't die

2. Don't fight like it's a boxing match...that's a good way to walk right into the blade.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you have the high percentage unarmed vs knife defence?
> 
> What is the secret?



There is no secret, but here are a few simple rules:

1) If you are going to defend against a knife you had better make damn sure you have no other choice.
2) Unless you are extremely lucky you will get cut so you have to accept it, just try to avoid getting killed.
3) Keep it simple.
4) Practice your basics before you try the frenzy and then keep practicing your basics. If you can't stop a simple stab or slash then you have no hope of stopping a frenzy.
5) There is only one percentage that is important - that you are 100% alive.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So if we don't get any meaningful result out of the training. Mabye we are training in a flawed manner.
> 
> have you ever considered just scrapping it?
> 
> Train knife defence under a completely different context.


Scrapping it is not really an option if you are genuinely training to handle what you might find on the street. There is an overlap between knife defence and defence against blunt instruments and firearms. Sure, the chances of confronting a knife are far less than a general stoush but it's the weapon of choice with young kids in Australia.

I don't believe the training is flawed. I have participated in knife defence classes conducted by highly regarded guys and I have watched even more. Against the straight forward attacks you normally see trained I reckon we have a really good system in place I'd be 99% confident with that. Where it gets interesting is training against the 'slice and dice' and 'stabby stabby' attacks I reckon your percentage drops to perhaps 50/50.  But against the hidden knife or a trained fighter you just don't want to be there.

What sort of different context are you thinking of?


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2015)

K-man said:


> Scrapping it is not really an option if you are genuinely training to handle what you might find on the street. There is an overlap between knife defence and defence against blunt instruments and firearms. Sure, the chances of confronting a knife are far less than a general stoush but it's the weapon of choice with young kids in Australia.
> 
> I don't believe the training is flawed. I have participated in knife defence classes conducted by highly regarded guys and I have watched even more. Against the straight forward attacks you normally see trained I reckon we have a really good system in place I'd be 99% confident with that. Where it gets interesting is training against the 'slice and dice' and 'stabby stabby' attacks I reckon your percentage drops to perhaps 50/50.  But against the hidden knife or a trained fighter you just don't want to be there.
> 
> What sort of different context are you thinking of?



Come with the idea that physical knife defence doesn't work very well. I mean we train to grab this thing out of mid air and we cant.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> There isn't one...
> 
> 2 rules.
> 
> ...



Every knife defence is a good way to walk into that blade. 

Why would boxing really be any lower percentage.

You still have that low percent chance you will knock the guy out before he can cut you. Which is honestly about the same as catching the arm.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Every knife defence is a good way to walk into that blade.
> 
> Why would boxing really be any lower percentage.
> 
> You still have that low percent chance you will knock the guy out before he can cut you. Which is honestly about the same as catching the arm.


Absolutely not. If your training is anything like that get another trainer. The only time you catch the arm directly is with the straight thrust. Even then you are moving back as you reach forward. The rest of the defences are from deflections that result in control of the arm. For the slice and dice attack we practise a type of sticky hands. But everything you do is predicated on minimising body exposure.

Boxing would have little chance you be honest. Your reach to punch is generally shorter than the range of the knife. Better to use a thrusting kick if you are not training hand defences. Then again, any improvisation such as grabbing a handful of dirt, a stick or a chair, even spitting, may give the distraction you need to escape or enter.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 15, 2015)

K-man said:


> Absolutely not. If your training is anything like that get another trainer. The only time you catch the arm directly is with the straight thrust. Even then you are moving back as you reach forward. The rest of the defences are from deflections that result in control of the arm. For the slice and dice attack we practise a type of sticky hands. But everything you do is predicated on minimising body exposure.
> 
> Boxing would have little chance you be honest. Your reach to punch is generally shorter than the range of the knife. Better to use a thrusting kick if you are not training hand defences. Then again, any improvisation such as grabbing a handful of dirt, a stick or a chair, even spitting, may give the distraction you need to escape or enter.


I agree. Knives are a special case on their own; the approach to knife defense must be specific. I would probably never attempt to kick the assailant, unless it were to create distance and I was absolutely sure I could get my leg out of there lest he cut it. A leg may have further reach than an arm with a knife, but the latter is capable of fatal injury, much more so than the former at least.

Experienced knife fighters will not lead with the knife. They'll keep it back and use their lead hand to open your defenses up, either with a feint, distracting hand movement, or an opening combative that he'll follow up with a knife attack. KO'ing the assailant would be the last thing on my mind; I'd focus on the immediate threat: the knife. Improvisation is highly recommended here, and I fully support that course of action. The last-ditch option probably ought to be a disarm, and not trying for a combative of your own in hopes of outrunning the blade. The risks are just too great. 

Use a chair, broom/mop, even a candelier or a glass/bottle and either neutralize the threat or immediately remove your person from danger by bolting out of there.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> You obviously didn't understand what I wrote. Go read it again.



I read it again - you're still wrong.



FriedRice said:


> You still don't understand what I said.



You seem to have trouble telling the difference between a MMA fight and a self defence situation, they are not the same.



FriedRice said:


> Maybe you should go "spar Mike Tyson".



You also seem to have trouble telling the difference between sparring and domestic violence. Mike Tyson's sparring partner is capable of taking care of himself in the controlled environment. Robin Givens is not a trained fighter, she did not agree to be abused or to fear for her life. Maybe you should ask Desiree Washington if she thinks that what he did to her "wasn't even that bad compared to what Tyson did to his opponents in the ring".



FriedRice said:


> Now you're just making up what I didn't even say.



No, you are misrepresenting my position. I did not say that you said said saying. I said that "*You seem to me to be of the opinion"* which is different than '*You said".* Based on the two posts I quoted that is a reasonably logical conclusion.


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## FriedRice (Mar 15, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I read it again - you're still wrong.



Can't help you don't understand, cya.


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## FriedRice (Mar 15, 2015)

K-man said:


> Boxing would have little chance you be honest. Your reach to punch is generally shorter than the range of the knife. Better to use a thrusting kick if you are not training hand defences. Then again, any improvisation such as grabbing a handful of dirt, a stick or a chair, even spitting, may give the distraction you need to escape or enter.



If you have time to grab things then you can probably turn and run. But if you're trapped and must fight bare hands vs. knife, a thrust/front kick usually won't do much damage unless it's a good one to the face. Usually, it just pushes someone back and buys you 1-2 seconds before he comes back. This is from fighting and sparring full power...and getting hit with plenty of Teeps and sidekicks, they rarely hurt, and are just annoying and pushes me back. The ones to the face are just gross and makes people mad. 

While getting off multiple jabs to the face will cause disorientation and sets up for the power shots and possible KO. This is more offensive than front kicks in a situation where you must fight bare hands vs. knife. A good Boxer can get multiple jabs off first. Untrained people who comes into train, usually just go crazy with flurries  of streetfighting swings at 100% power & speed until they gas and all it takes to stop them is just jabs and footwork. Of course they're wearing gloves and not holding a knife, so no doubt it's a much lower risk. I still train Krav Maga for its weapons defense as knowing as much as possible doesn't hurt. I also train to slice someone's  A  up with my own blades and Mall Ninja hip shooting, quick draws, etc.


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## FriedRice (Mar 15, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> KO'ing the assailant would be the last thing on my mind; I'd focus on the immediate threat: the knife.



My argument for using my Boxing is that going for the slow or non-moving head is much easier than going for the fast moving knife hand. Punching people repeatedly in the face disorients them, especially if the power shot KO's them. This is a proven thing. It's still extremely risky, I'm just confident in my skills. This isn't for everyone, especially if their Boxing is not good. 



> Use a chair, broom/mop, even a candelier or a glass/bottle and either neutralize the threat or immediately remove your person from danger by bolting out of there.



No doubt, I would pull out my gun or my own blade. But this is about not having such luxuries. Although if they're very close, with a  visible knife. I'd still probably need to get a few jabs off to buy time to get my gun out.


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2015)

I haven't checked back into this thread until a couple days ago. It sure has gotten interesting!

If I could throw in two cents or three....Let's start with the odd.
I abhor violence against women and children. It is a pet peeve of mine and always will be. But, Robin Givens and her mother set up Mike Tyson. Purposely, perfectly, and brilliantly, I might add. They are both far more evil than Tyson ever was. And I don't like Tyson, not one little bit.

Best thing about this thread is, it seems to me everyone has fighting in their Art! I think that's wonderful. I think fighting is the only thing that unites the martial arts. (feel free to tear me a new one over that statement)

Knives suck. The longer I train them, the scarier they get.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

Shai Hulud said:


> I agree. Knives are a special case on their own; the approach to knife defense must be specific. I would probably never attempt to kick the assailant, *unless it were to create distance* and I was absolutely sure I could get my leg out of there lest he cut it. A leg may have further reach than an arm with a knife, but the latter is capable of fatal injury, much more so than the former at least.


Unfortunately no. Kicking is not to create distance if you create distance your attacker will just close again and you will no longer have any element of surprise. If you have to engage you have to tie up the weapon arm. The kick is to give you entry. If you can get away you get away. This is for when getting away is not an option.

Not that I'm all that keen on what's shown here but it gives the idea.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> If you have time to grab things then you can probably turn and run. But if you're trapped and must fight bare hands vs. knife, a thrust/front kick usually won't do much damage unless it's a good one to the face. Usually, it just pushes someone back and buys you 1-2 seconds before he comes back.


You can't kick a guy with a knife in the face. If you miss you will be cut really badly. The kick is low and fast. It is lot normally to push him back. It is to drop him or gain entry.



FriedRice said:


> This is from fighting and sparring full power...and getting hit with plenty of Teeps and sidekicks, they rarely hurt, and are just annoying and pushes me back. The ones to the face are just gross and makes people mad.


This is not what I'm talking about and if you had ever trained with a Krav instructor you would know that.



FriedRice said:


> While getting off multiple jabs to the face will cause disorientation and sets up for the power shots and possible KO. This is more offensive than front kicks in a situation where you must fight bare hands vs. knife. A good Boxer can get multiple jabs off first. Untrained people who comes into train, usually just go crazy with flurries  of streetfighting swings at 100% power & speed until they gas and all it takes to stop them is just jabs and footwork.


Go for it you use multiple jabs against me with a knife. You're dead in seconds. To think you are able to enter stabbing range to deliver jabs is fairyland. The front kick is because you get extra range. You lean back to keep your torso further away.



FriedRice said:


> Of course they're wearing gloves and not holding a knife, so no doubt it's a much lower risk. I still train Krav Maga for its weapons defense as knowing as much as possible doesn't hurt. I also train to slice someone's  A  up with my own blades and Mall Ninja hip shooting, quick draws, etc.


What you have described is nothing like I teach in Krav. I'd like to see what Brian VanCise thinks of your idea. He probably has as much or more knowledge of knife defence as anyone on MT.


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## FriedRice (Mar 15, 2015)

K-man said:


> You can't kick a guy with a knife in the face. If you miss you will be cut really badly. The kick is low and fast. It is lot normally to push him back. It is to drop him or gain entry.



Sure you can a guy with a knife in the face, it's just riskier. And being cut badly would depend on the other guy and even his knife. Not everyone carries a razor sharp knife. Low kick can work, I'm just saying punches are better at knife range.



> This is not what I'm talking about and if you had ever trained with a Krav instructor you would know that.



I do train Krav Maga and even said so in English even. If you know Krav Maga, you'd know that they have more than one varying system, so there's not a uniformly accepted curriculum. And they are still evolving by continually copying other systems' techniques.



> Go for it you use multiple jabs against me with a knife. You're dead in seconds. To think you are able to enter stabbing range to deliver jabs is fairyland. The front kick is because you get extra range. You lean back to keep your torso further away.



You just don't know what good Boxing can do with jabs. But if I had my knife and you with your barehands whatever and your front kick entry, you'd be just as dead in seconds too.



> What you have described is nothing like I teach in Krav. I'd like to see what Brian VanCise thinks of your idea. He probably has as much or more knowledge of knife defence as anyone on MT.



I never said that what I'm advocating with punching a knife wielder   in the face is what I've been taught in Krav Maga. I said that this was my personal, go-to strategy vs. knife. While I also train Krav to learn what they teach in terms of defense against weapons based on these certain gyms' federation that I drop-in on.


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## Drose427 (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Sure you can a guy with a knife in the face, it's just riskier. And being cut badly would depend on the other guy and even his knife. Not everyone carries a razor sharp knife. Low kick can work, I'm just saying punches are better at knife range.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Boxing someone with a knife is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter how good of a boxer you are. You can make me dizzy all you want, it means nothing when you stepped straight into my knife for it. 

You are literally the first person I've ever spoken to advocating it.

Second, I believe K-man has boxing experience. I'm noticing a trend here, you pop up, mention ideas or beliefs that many, many people have corrected, then get defensive.

Hold whatever opinion you want, but trying to jab someone with a knife is a great way to get stabbed in the chest\gut, or get the arteries on your arm sliced open.

Boxing an attacker with a knife isn't common knife defense ANYWHERE in my experience.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> My argument for using my Boxing is that going for the slow or non-moving head is much easier than going for the fast moving knife hand. Punching people repeatedly in the face disorients them, especially if the power shot KO's them. This is a proven thing. It's still extremely risky, I'm just confident in my skills. This isn't for everyone, especially if their Boxing is not good.







Good luck with the punching. 

No doubt, I would pull out my gun or my own blade. But this is about not having such luxuries. Although if they're very close, with a  visible knife. I'd still probably need to get a few jabs off to buy time to get my gun out.[/QUOTE]Cool. If you reckon you can do that, go for it. I must say, you are the first person I have ever heard make these sorts of claims.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> No doubt, I would pull out my gun or my own blade. But this is about not having such luxuries. Although if they're very close, with a  visible knife. I'd still probably need to get a few jabs off to buy time to get my gun out.



Here's another one. These guys already have the knives out. 






Did you find it strange that they kept out of each other's reach? I mean, how much easier would it have been for one to just walk in and knock the other guy out?


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## Buka (Mar 15, 2015)

Two people. Each with a knife. Possible outcomes - 
A gets cut/stabbed, B doesn't. 
B gets cut/stabbed, A doesn't. 
Both get cut/stabbed.
There's a 67 percent chance you're going to get cut/stabbed.
I don't know what the odds/figures would be unarmed against a knife. I don't defend well against a knife if I'm unarmed. In fact, not at all, unfortunately.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 16, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Can't help you don't understand, cya.


Not if you don't say things that make sense. Bye.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 16, 2015)

K-man said:


> Here's another one. These guys already have the knives out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like how the knife fight is 'sudden death'.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 16, 2015)

K-man said:


> You can't kick a guy with a knife in the face. If you miss you will be cut really badly.


Definitely, you would expose your femoral artery and put it at a convenient height for cutting.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 17, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Rare huh?  Has anybody else here on this forum ever been attacked in the real world?


A couple of days ago one of our white belts, about 5 or 6 years old, saw a young girl who was his friend getting bullied by another boy so he pushed the bully away and said to him "leave her alone", "I don't want to fight you so back off" and the bully backed down. His school praised him for protecting the girl.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Boxing someone with a knife is a terrible idea, it doesn't matter how good of a boxer you are. You can make me dizzy all you want, it means nothing when you stepped straight into my knife for it.



It's probably a terrible idea to you because your Boxing is not good and you've never KO'ed anyone during sparring and competition fights before. And I don't mean this as a putdown and also, I should have qualified that this isn't easy, as it does take good Boxing skills.



> You are literally the first person I've ever spoken to advocating it.



I've seen a few videos popping up recently about this on Knife Defense on YouTube, but yes, I've been advocating this for quite a few years now.



> Second, I believe K-man has boxing experience. I'm noticing a trend here, you pop up, mention ideas or beliefs that many, many people have corrected, then get defensive.



Boxing experience can mean various things. Technically, someone who just tried out the free, intro class at a LA Boxing or something, "has boxing experience", just not the same as Mayweather, but they still can say that they have experience. Many people, when they first try out our gym, often tell me (when I ask about their experience), that they used to "Box  in college" or  "have fought in the streets", etc. Even after hitting pads and showing some legit skills, it's still not a guarantee that they can fight. The best way of gauging such is when I spar them.



> Hold whatever opinion you want, but trying to jab someone with a knife is a great way to get stabbed in the chest\gut, or get the arteries on your arm sliced open.



And you can hold whatever opinion you want vs. knives and find out that it's also a great way to get stabbed in the chest/gut, or get your arteries on your arm sliced open.



> Boxing an attacker with a knife isn't common knife defense ANYWHERE in my experience.



Probably, in order to train this effectively, the attacker with the knife must get punched in the face for real at full speed and power to prove the effectiveness of been stopped cold, by punches. The average grandma ain't going to go for this type of training.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

K-man said:


> Good luck with the punching.
> 
> Cool. If you reckon you can do that, go for it. I must say, you are the first person I have ever heard make these sorts of claims.



There are a few videos on YouTube advocating such techniques. I can't remember exactly, but one may have been a Krav Maga instructor.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

K-man said:


> Here's another one. These guys already have the knives out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



These guys are pretty slow and sloppy, but do you think that you'd do better empty hand vs. knife in this situation where it's a "must fight" scenario with your SD techniques? I'm just more confident in my hand speed and KO precision than you are. But I don't doubt that the knife wielder has a huge advantage over me and I have a much higher chance of  failing or dying.

Here's a real knife fight:


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

Buka said:


> Two people. Each with a knife. Possible outcomes -
> A gets cut/stabbed, B doesn't.
> B gets cut/stabbed, A doesn't.
> Both get cut/stabbed.
> ...




Usually, the winner of a Knife vs. Knife fight is the guy who dies at the hospital, later


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Why would boxing really be any lower percentage.
> 
> You still have that low percent chance you will knock the guy out before he can cut you. Which is honestly about the same as catching the arm.



Boxing can mean different things: If you are going for stick and move you might have a chance as long as you don't forget about the knife, but if you are doing stand and trade you will get yourself killed.


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## elder999 (Mar 17, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Usually, the winner of a Knife vs. Knife fight is the guy who dies at the hospital, later


_Rii-ight._


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 17, 2015)

once again we come to how much knowledge each of the people have.  Also we must consider what the length of the blade is and the arm reach of each person along with if either person is unable to move quickly.  
I have practiced blade work for about 40 years and yes have faced a few on the street when empty handed so I can say from experience that there are many many things to consider in situations involving a blade.

Practice will condition some  skills so that they become almost instinctual and that helps whom ever is in a fight situation.  Therefor the more you practice and spar/fight no matter what strength  the better your reflexes should become

Oh and one last word on this  a dull blade causes some nasty and I do mean nasty cuts


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Usually, the winner of a Knife vs. Knife fight is the guy who dies at the hospital, later



Very dramatic statement. Completely untrue, but very dramatic.

Being sent home with some stitches is by far the most common outcome for the "loser" of the fight. A trip to the OR would be second (generally as a a result of stab wounds; slashing wounds are far less likely to cause significant injury) is second, and actually dying is a distant 3rd. 

But what do I know? I've only been in the ER for like 30 years, and it's not like actual real world experience matters, when there's YouTube and hearsay instead, right?


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## Instructor (Mar 17, 2015)

For myself when the rubber hit the road in the really real world I didn't do any of the fancy stuff I've been taught to handle the stabber.  I used a barricade approach by holding a large object between me and them and used it like a shield till I could bash the blade out of their hand.  Came away without a scratch (miracle).


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## elder999 (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very dramatic statement. Completely untrue, but very dramatic.
> 
> Being sent home with some stitches is by far the most common outcome for the "loser" of the fight. A trip to the OR would be second (generally as a a result of stab wounds; slashing wounds are far less likely to cause significant injury) is second, and actually dying is a distant 3rd.
> 
> But what do I know? I've only been in the ER for like 30 years, and it's not like actual real world experience matters, when there's YouTube and hearsay instead, right?



Thanks, Double-D...I'm busy, tired and cranky of late, and don't have the energy to waste on a keyboard, trying to share what little wisdom and experience I have with those who insist on clinging to ignorance (not saying that mr. friedrice falls into that category, but I'm too busy to bother finding out....)


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very dramatic statement. Completely untrue, but very dramatic.
> 
> Being sent home with some stitches is by far the most common outcome for the "loser" of the fight. A trip to the OR would be second (generally as a a result of stab wounds; slashing wounds are far less likely to cause significant injury) is second, and actually dying is a distant 3rd.


 
Thanks for this informative post coming from a person with the experience to speak with some authority.

On the other hand, it's probably just as well to keep in mind that it is quite possible for both participants in a knife fight to sustain serious, even life threatening injuries. Maybe this would be more common in a culture where settling scores with knives is more common and access to modern medical care is not as available?

Another unpleasant factor to consider is the fact that both participants in a "knife fight" (does that mean a duel as compared to self-defence?) will have to deal with the legal consequences of their actions. I can't imagine that that would be fun either.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Oh and one last word on this  a dull blade causes some nasty and I do mean nasty cuts



No doubt, but my point was, I'd rather go up against a dull blade over a razor sharp one if I had a choice.


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## FriedRice (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very dramatic statement. Completely untrue, but very dramatic.
> 
> Being sent home with some stitches is by far the most common outcome for the "loser" of the fight. A trip to the OR would be second (generally as a a result of stab wounds; slashing wounds are far less likely to cause significant injury) is second, and actually dying is a distant 3rd.
> 
> But what do I know? I've only been in the ER for like 30 years, and it's not like actual real world experience matters, when there's YouTube and hearsay instead, right?



I was just joking really, more to stress how I wouldn't want to be involved in any knife on knife fight.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> Thanks for this informative post coming from a person with the experience to speak with some authority.
> 
> On the other hand, it's probably just as well to keep in mind that it is quite possible for both participants in a knife fight to sustain serious, even life threatening injuries. Maybe this would be more common in a culture where settling scores with knives is more common and access to modern medical care is not as available?
> 
> Another unpleasant factor to consider is the fact that both participants in a "knife fight" (does that mean a duel as compared to self-defence?) will have to deal with the legal consequences of their actions. I can't imagine that that would be fun either.



Possible? Sure. Likely? Not so much. Most knife wounds are slashing wounds. Most are fairly superficial. Most will heal just fine without medical care. Closing a knife wound is done to minimize scarring. Without closure, wounds like this will still heal just fine. They'll just be more visible.

And "settling scores with knives" (and guns) is extremely common in the USA. I don't really know that it's any more common in other countries.


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## geezer (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And "settling scores with knives" (and guns) is extremely common in the USA.* I don't really know that it's any more common in other countries.*


 
I don't know either. I have a Filipino friend who said that said that settling scores, and even  dueling with blades was more common back in his country. That was his perception. I really wouldn't know if he's correct. Even here in the U.S., I don't hang out where fist fights are common. Much less knifings and shootings.

My only contact with that stuff since I moved to my current neighborhood was when a neighbor's 14 year old daughter caught a bullet in the head and dropped dead while sitting in her back yard talking on the phone. The yard is protected by a high block fence, and it appeared that the bullet pretty much fell from the sky. Nobody even heard a shot. The shooter was probably at least a half mile away and never knew he killed someone. 16 years later, it's a cold case, no leads. Just goes to show, nobody's ever totally safe, wherever you are. Stuff happens.

BTW this happend less than 50 yards from my backyard in a great old neighbohood in central Phoenix. FYI:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon's_law_(Arizona)


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## elder999 (Mar 17, 2015)

Human beings are remarkably resilient. I have my own, rather insignificant knife wounds. I came out "on top," in both of those situations-didn't seek medical attention for the one that I should have, got stitches for the one that I probably didn't have to bother, and now, more than 30 years later, you have to look pretty hard to identify either of them.  I'd take pictures, but I don't think they show.....

anyway, human beings are remarkably resilient.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## Tez3 (Mar 17, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Human beings are remarkably resilient. I have my own, rather insignificant knife wounds. I came out "on top," in both of those situations-didn't seek medical attention for the one that I should have, got stitches for the one that I probably didn't have to bother, and now, more than 30 years later, you have to look pretty hard to identify either of them.  I'd take pictures, but I don't think they show.....
> 
> anyway, human beings are remarkably resilient.
> 
> ...




Oooh Er!


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

K-man said:


> Unfortunately no. Kicking is not to create distance if you create distance your attacker will just close again and you will no longer have any element of surprise. If you have to engage you have to tie up the weapon arm. The kick is to give you entry. If you can get away you get away. This is for when getting away is not an option.
> 
> Not that I'm all that keen on what's shown here but it gives the idea.



What works better in knife sparring. Creating distance or closing?


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Instructor said:


> For myself when the rubber hit the road in the really real world I didn't do any of the fancy stuff I've been taught to handle the stabber.  I used a barricade approach by holding a large object between me and them and used it like a shield till I could bash the blade out of their hand.  Came away without a scratch (miracle).



It would be higher percentage sparring like that as well in my opinion.

But we train to get in close and catch knives.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Very dramatic statement. Completely untrue, but very dramatic.
> 
> Being sent home with some stitches is by far the most common outcome for the "loser" of the fight. A trip to the OR would be second (generally as a a result of stab wounds; slashing wounds are far less likely to cause significant injury) is second, and actually dying is a distant 3rd.
> 
> But what do I know? I've only been in the ER for like 30 years, and it's not like actual real world experience matters, when there's YouTube and hearsay instead, right?



I have seen some people loose function in their arms from knife attacks and the recovery was months long.

we have had one like that recently that is going to court soon. When it is over I will let you know how it pans out.


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## K-man (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What works better in knife sparring. Creating distance or closing?


I'm not sure what you are meaning by 'knife sparring'. It really covers the situations of knife fighting, where both have knives, and empty hand self defence where only one has a knife. Knife fighting is totally different to empty hand against a knife, so my answer is for SD. I'll leave comment on knife fighting for those with more knowledge.

For self defence, obviously creating distance and getting away is the best option. However, if that is not possible then closing as soon as practical would be best. Getting in and controlling is the better option than dancing around avoiding, because eventually he will get you, even if it is cut by cut. Of course you are not really the decision maker here. The guy with the knife is normally going to be the one making the first move.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

K-man said:


> I'm not sure what you are meaning by 'knife sparring'. It really covers the situations of knife fighting, where both have knives, and empty hand self defence where only one has a knife. Knife fighting is totally different to empty hand against a knife, so my answer is for SD. I'll leave comment on knife fighting for those with more knowledge.
> 
> For self defence, obviously creating distance and getting away is the best option. However, if that is not possible then closing as soon as practical would be best. Getting in and controlling is the better option than dancing around avoiding, because eventually he will get you, even if it is cut by cut. Of course you are not really the decision maker here. The guy with the knife is normally going to be the one making the first move.



However if?

Obviously the bulk of your training will be the high percentage technique of getting away?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I have seen some people loose function in their arms from knife attacks and the recovery was months long.
> 
> we have had one like that recently that is going to court soon. When it is over I will let you know how it pans out.



So? Nobody ever said that severe injuries don't occur. What was said is that they're far less common than people like to think.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So? Nobody ever said that severe injuries don't occur. What was said is that they're far less common than people like to think.



And what I am suggesting is serious injury is more common than you are making out.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And what I am suggesting is serious injury is more common than you are making out.



Based on what? An anecdotal story of a single event?
I'm sure that's a MUCH better way to judge than the literally thousands of knife wounds I've seen in the last 30+ years.
Where's that ROFL gif?


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Based on what? An anecdotal story of a single event?
> I'm sure that's a MUCH better way to judge than the literally thousands of knife wounds I've seen in the last 30+ years.
> Where's that ROFL gif?



based on the sharps attacks I have seen over 20 years. Which while hasn't been thousands there has been a few.

Both of our evidence is anecdotal.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What works better in knife sparring. Creating distance or closing?


Creating distance, about a kilometer or so would be good.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 18, 2015)

FriedRice said:


> Usually, the winner of a Knife vs. Knife fight is the guy who dies at the hospital, later


I don't see how dying can be considered a win.


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> I don't see how dying can be considered a win.



Its called a pyrrhic victory.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> based on the sharps attacks I have seen over 20 years. Which while hasn't been thousands there has been a few.



And your qualifications to judge the actual severity of those wounds are...?



drop bear said:


> Both of our evidence is anecdotal.



Not really. Unlike you, I have actual medical records as well as the training to accurately assess the severity of the wounds.


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And your qualifications to judge the actual severity of those wounds are...?
> 
> 
> 
> Not really. Unlike you, I have actual medical records as well as the training to accurately assess the severity of the wounds.



well for example the bouncer I worked with who got glassed and lost an eye. I could tell. Because he only had one eye. That sort of absolutely obvious result.

And these medical records would not be something you could produce are they. So we are both back to anecdotes.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> well for example the bouncer I worked with who got glassed and lost an eye. I could tell. Because he only had one eye. That sort of absolutely obvious result.
> 
> And these medical records would not be something you could produce are they. So we are both back to anecdotes.


And if you cannot produce this bouncer then your evidence is only anecdotal.


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> And if you cannot produce this bouncer then your evidence is only anecdotal.



yes. You are correct.


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## drop bear (Mar 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I have seen some people loose function in their arms from knife attacks and the recovery was months long.
> 
> we have had one like that recently that is going to court soon. When it is over I will let you know how it pans out.



here is this one. Just in case people think I am making stuff up.

Wounding Airlie Beach - QPS News


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 18, 2015)

So... Quick records search since I had to come to the ER for a meeting today. 
Over the last two years, 98% of knife wounds were discharged after treatment in the ER. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So... Quick records search since I had to come to the ER for a meeting today.
> Over the last two years, 98% of knife wounds were discharged after treatment in the ER.
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.



and they were assaults?


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## danny86 (Mar 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Pretty important.
> 
> we have guys who compete. Which i consider fighting. We have guys like myself who bounce and so have to fight people.
> 
> ...


Hi drop bear..How many times per week you go training?


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## Hyoho (Mar 19, 2015)

I have spent most of my life in a Japanese dojo. One fights  nearly everyday. If its fundamentals with your sensei leading. If you are fighting to get a place on the team to win the all Japan championships whatever. You fight till you drop! No pain no gain. Fighting someone else or fighting your own weakness are both tools for advancement.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2015)

danny86 said:


> Hi drop bear..How many times per week you go training?



Depends how much work screws me. Three to five days on average.


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## danny86 (Mar 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Depends how much work screws me. Three to five days on average.


 That's right!! A lot! I'm starting now with the training and I'm loving it!


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

Okay, been away for a bit... still having some computer issues, but it seems to be working for the minute... 



drop bear said:


> yes i know it is staged. It was an example of what i am on about. That bad partner facto is a pretty big deal though.



Er... no, it's really not an example of what you were talking about. For one thing, what you were talking about (issues you think exist in bunkai... we'll deal with that in a bit) is really not shown here at all... the idea of a bad partner is more one of drills than anything else, and can be just as present in sparring as anything else.



drop bear said:


> Why i made up the bad partner idea. Fighting is about denying the other guys options from that outset. You don't let that grab come on and then defend.
> 
> You defend as soon as you can.
> 
> Triangle defence is a good example. The best defence is positional.



You really think you "made up" the idea of a bad partner? Seriously? And do you really not get the idea of drills against particular set-ups? Or are you going to suggest that you shouldn't train against specific set-ups? Do you simply not let your training partners get the position you're meant to escape from when training? Really?



drop bear said:


>



Er... no. What I asked was what your understanding of what bunkai is, not for you to link to a video showing one expression of it that, frankly, I don't think you understand in the slightest. So I'll try again... how exactly are you, drop bear, defining "bunkai"? What do you, in your own words, without videos, believe that it actually is?


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Er... no. What I asked was what your understanding of what bunkai is, not for you to link to a video showing one expression of it that, frankly, I don't think you understand in the slightest. So I'll try again... how exactly are you, drop bear, defining "bunkai"? What do you, in your own words, without videos, believe that it actually is?



they look like drills. Isolated fighting bits.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

That's what it looked like to you… but what actually is bunkai? That's the question.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

"You really think you "made up" the idea of a bad partner? Seriously? And do you really not get the idea of drills against particular set-ups? Or are you going to suggest that you shouldn't train against specific set-ups? Do you simply not let your training partners get the position you're meant to escape from when training? Really"

In the context I am going to use them yes. So if I do a drill I will good partner. But when I spar I bad partner.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

Then you're a bad training partner.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Then you're a bad training partner.



I am supposed to be a bad training partner. I am making it my mission to cut off their ability to perform techniques.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

No, you're not. There's a world of difference between being a "bad partner" (i.e. a jerk in training), and providing pressure (i.e. a "good partner"). The fact that you can't see the difference doesn't bode well. And I'm still waiting for a definition of bunkai, by the way.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, you're not. There's a world of difference between being a "bad partner" (i.e. a jerk in training), and providing pressure (i.e. a "good partner"). The fact that you can't see the difference doesn't bode well. And I'm still waiting for a definition of bunkai, by the way.



You got a definition.

There are times to be a jerk in training. It depends on what you are trying to achieve. In a sports fight the other guy is going to be a jerk.

So in training you become a jerk. 

Most escapes are done before the person has applied the attack. These are done with good basics and denying opportunities.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

No, I got a video of a demonstration of some forms of bunkai that you didn't understand, and then a throw away line about what the video looked like to you… neither of which are actual definitions. And no, there aren't times to be a jerk in training… you try that with me, I break you, just to show you how bad an idea it is.

The last line has little to no relevance, frankly. I get what you're answering, and why, but you've missed the point. Again.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, I got a video of a demonstration of some forms of bunkai that you didn't understand, and then a throw away line about what the video looked like to you… neither of which are actual definitions. And no, there aren't times to be a jerk in training… you try that with me, I break you, just to show you how bad an idea it is.
> 
> The last line has little to no relevance, frankly. I get what you're answering, and why, but you've missed the point. Again.



Bunkai is a form of drill. You get it from kata. Pick a bit out of it and use it as training. It doesn't look any more complicated or mysterious than any other drill compliant or resisted drill that pretty much every else.

As far as breaking people. How old are you? Seriously in some styles you are actually allowed to fight back even if it seems like they are being a jerk. 

That is what sparring is and why it is important.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> The last line has little to no relevance, frankly. I get what you're answering, and why, but you've missed the point. Again.



It has all the relevance. In a drill they get a position you escape. But the trick is you never let them get that position.

Exactly like that video. Step one break the grip. So obviously counter one is do not let the grip be broken.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Bunkai is a form of drill. You get it from kata. Pick a bit out of it and use it as training. It doesn't look any more complicated or mysterious than any other drill compliant or resisted drill that pretty much every else.



Okay, now we have something to work with.

Nope. Rather incorrect, to be frank. Bunkai is actually not a "form of drill"… it is quite literally an "exploration"… an attempt to look into the possibilities inherent in the actions of the kata itself. In other words, there isn't any set drill that is bunkai… bunkai is created individually, and often looks like what you think are drills, but that's really simply the way the bunkai is explored.

The actual movements themselves aren't any more mysterious, complicated, or anything else… in fact, you wouldn't want them to be… but what they are is an expression of the tactical applications found within the kata themselves. They (ideally) are designed with the realities of inter-relationships (natural reactions, what you would likely consider "resistance", although again, that's actually not realistic), distancing, timing, and so forth, although that's not essential either. All that's really needed for bunkai is that is is an exploration of the possibilities within the kata.



drop bear said:


> As far as breaking people. How old are you? Seriously in some styles you are actually allowed to fight back even if it seems like they are being a jerk.



You really want to try this? Mate, if you're a jerk in training, you will deserve a harsh response. And "fighting back" is not being a jerk… again, the idea that you can't see the difference doesn't bode well for your understanding… or your ability to engage with people.



drop bear said:


> That is what sparring is and why it is important.



No, it isn't. Sparring is a training device with the aim of skill development, not where one person actively tries to stop the other developing.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It has all the relevance. In a drill they get a position you escape. But the trick is you never let them get that position.
> 
> Exactly like that video. Step one break the grip. So obviously counter one is do not let the grip be broken.



Yeah… you're really not getting this…


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> You really want to try this? Mate, if you're a jerk in training, you will deserve a harsh response. And "fighting back" is not being a jerk… again, the idea that you can't see the difference doesn't bode well for your understanding… or your ability to engage with people



Except I am not breakin


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

And we're not training, and you're not in my class. I'm trying to help you see the way you're acting and being perceived here… take it as constructive criticism. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of what you argue about here, you have no clue about whatsoever, and this is coupled with your ideas that being a jerk, starting arguments, treating discussions as conflicts etc, and you will be seen in an increasingly poor light. I'm trying to help you fix that before it's too late. Of course, now it's all in your court.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Except I am not breakin



This is what happens when you cant edit.

Anyway being a jerk is definitely a step down on the duchebag scale than breaking people. And quite simply sounds like silly talk.

But to prepare someone to fight a jerk they have to experience fighting a jerk. And there is some serious jerk options available in the style that I do.

So it is pretty accepted.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> And we're not training, and you're not in my class. I'm trying to help you see the way you're acting and being perceived here… take it as constructive criticism. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of what you argue about here, you have no clue about whatsoever, and this is coupled with your ideas that being a jerk, starting arguments, treating discussions as conflicts etc, and you will be seen in an increasingly poor light. I'm trying to help you fix that before it's too late. Of course, now it's all in your court.



Before you break me?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

No, son. Before you get yourself banned.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, it isn't. Sparring is a training device with the aim of skill development, not where one person actively tries to stop the other developing.



You are not stopping development you are providing resistance.


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## Tez3 (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Except I am not breakin




You could already be broken and just not realise it.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> This is what happens when you cant edit.
> 
> Anyway being a jerk is definitely a step down on the duchebag scale than breaking people. And quite simply sounds like silly talk.
> 
> ...



I don't think you quite get what "break you" means in this context. What I mean is that I would shut down one of my students if they showed such behaviour, either physically or in some other fashion, depending on how things were going down. And, for the record, you're not preparing people to fight a jerk… you're just being a jerk.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, son. Before you get yourself banned.



So more threats.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You are not stopping development you are providing resistance.



(Sigh) You do get the distinction, yeah? Providing resistance is not "being a jerk"… I believe this was stated earlier, yeah?


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I don't think you quite get what "break you" means in this context. What I mean is that I would shut down one of my students if they showed such behaviour, either physically or in some other fashion, depending on how things were going down. And, for the record, you're not preparing people to fight a jerk… you're just being a jerk.



Braking someone in sparring has generally come with the idea that you will cripple them in some manner.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So more threats.



Not a threat, mate. A foreshadowing. You're hardly the first to go down that path, and I'm letting you know the warning signs you're showing.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Braking someone in sparring has generally come with the idea that you will cripple them in some manner.



Yeah, you really need to get some idea of nuance… that's not really the implication. If you don't think someone can be "broken" without crippling them, you're a bit out of your depth here… again.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> (Sigh) You do get the distinction, yeah? Providing resistance is not "being a jerk"… I believe this was stated earlier, yeah?



What do you feel is the difference? Say we wrestle and I grind my head into your face. Am I providing resistance or being a jerk?


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah, you really need to get some idea of nuance… that's not really the implication. If you don't think someone can be "broken" without crippling them, you're a bit out of your depth here… again.



So your context of breaking someone is?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> What do you feel is the difference? Say we wrestle and I grind my head into your face. Am I providing resistance or being a jerk?



That depends on the context of the sparring/wrestling. Again… context is everything. If you're doing that against a beginner who's trying to apply something he's just learned, you're a jerk. If it's a couple of more seasoned practitioners, it can be fine, even expected as part of the "enhancement" of technique, and could be classed as resistance. Then again, if you're rolling to achieve a particular aim, it could still be classed as a jerk action.



drop bear said:


> So your context of breaking someone is?



More of a lesson than a punishment… essentially a way of showing that, if you're going to be a jerk, you're going to end up coming up against someone who won't allow it.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

"That depends on the context of the sparring/wrestling. Again… context is everything. If you're doing that against a beginner who's trying to apply something he's just learned, you're a jerk. If it's a couple of more seasoned practitioners, it can be fine, even expected as part of the "enhancement" of technique, and could be classed as resistance. Then again, if you're rolling to achieve a particular aim, it could still be classed as a jerk action."

So I am being accused of something with a seriously fuzzy definition. And why my bad partnering idea came with a definition.

In mma there is a whole bunch of stuff That is seen as pretty low brow and yet are viable techniques. It is a terrible way to spar someone in that it is just mean. But we have to acclimate people to the concept. I would have called that being a jerk.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> More of a lesson than a punishment… essentially a way of showing that, if you're going to be a jerk, you're going to end up coming up against someone who won't allow it.



So you tell them off. Beat them up. I am still not sure how you are breaking people.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> "That depends on the context of the sparring/wrestling. Again… context is everything. If you're doing that against a beginner who's trying to apply something he's just learned, you're a jerk. If it's a couple of more seasoned practitioners, it can be fine, even expected as part of the "enhancement" of technique, and could be classed as resistance. Then again, if you're rolling to achieve a particular aim, it could still be classed as a jerk action."
> 
> So I am being accused of something with a seriously fuzzy definition. And why my bad partnering idea came with a definition.
> 
> In mma there is a whole bunch of stuff That is seen as pretty low brow and yet are viable techniques. It is a terrible way to spar someone in that it is just mean. But we have to acclimate people to the concept. I would have called that being a jerk.



No, you're not being accused of anything of the kind… you claimed to have come up with the idea of a "bad partner", which you didn't. The phenomenon has been around as long as people with egos have been training together… but, the thing is, it's not what you're defining it as… a "bad partner" is only concerned with their own sense of ego and power… providing serious resistance and fighting back in sparring is actually being a "good partner". Being a jerk is not the same thing as sparring seriously. One more time, the fact that you seem incapable of recognising this is what's leading to the issues in communication.



drop bear said:


> So you tell them off. Beat them up. I am still not sure how you are breaking people.



Yeah, I get that you don't follow. And, one more time, it depends. It might be simply pointing it out to them in a definite way, or it might be inviting them to try it with me… which might lead to my simply not allowing them to do what they were doing with their partner, or it might be me being a bit harsher. Context and nuance.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

"No, you're not being accused of anything of the kind… you claimed to have come up with the idea of a "bad partner", which you didn't. The phenomenon has been around as long as people with egos have been training together… but, the thing is, it's not what you're defining it as… a "bad partner" is only concerned with their own sense of ego and power…"


So even when I put a meaning to the concept you are going to ignore that place your own meaning on it and then argue that.

and then say I don't get it?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So even when I put a meaning to the concept you are going to ignore that place your own meaning on it and then argue that.
> 
> and then say I don't get it?



No, when you apply a different, I'd suggest inaccurate, definition to a concept that has existed long since previous, then continue to argue against the common meaning, I will say you don't get it.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> No, when you apply a different, I'd suggest inaccurate, definition to a concept that has existed long since previous, then continue to argue against the common meaning, I will say you don't get it.



I defined it as a concept that goes against the comon meaning. 

Right from the outset I said I made it up as a concept. Now it might have a common meaning that is different but that is obviously not the meaning that I am using.

You are basically trolling at this point.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 4, 2015)

You don't have to fight in order learn a Martial Art but if you want to be able to use the Martial Art in a fight or for self-defense then you'll have to practice it that way and actually fight with it.


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## mograph (Aug 10, 2015)

In my opinion, a good partner provides enough resistance that allows the other person a _chance_ at finding a way to counter the resistance. The resistance should allow a possibility of incremental advancement by the other. The good training partner is able to provide dynamic resistance, always sensing the other's skill and applying no more force/resistance than necessary to allow the other to explore solutions to the resistance. This dynamic relationship is affected by the relative skill level of the partners, of course. 

A good training partner is not there to win, but to learn and train, and to help others learn, and to maintain a reputation as a good training partner ... so he doesn't run out of training partners because he's a jerk.  To me, this is the implied contract between training partners.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 10, 2015)

mograph said:


> a good partner provides enough resistance that allows the other person a _chance_ at finding a way to counter the resistance.


Correct. There has to be a good balance of it being serious enough so that it provides a good challenge and light enough not to cause serious injury. Having a sparring partner that hits too light is just as bad as one that is trying to hurt you.


----------

