# legendary fight between masters...



## TSDTexan (Aug 31, 2015)

“Yasuhiro Koneshi reported that a newspaper carried the story of a fight that took place between the Motobu Choki and Funakoshi Gichen in 1930.

When Funakoshi finally faced his nemesis, his feet were instantly swept from beneath him and he suffered the indignity as he lay at Motobu's feet of having his face menaced with the latter’s enormous fist.”

Source: David Chambers, in a Tsunami video tape, “Wado Ryu the way of peace and harmony,”

it is also reported "Two of Funakoshi's top students (Hironori Ohtsuka and Koyu Konishi) also left him to train with Motobu."


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## Tames D (Aug 31, 2015)

Doesn't surprise me. Many "Masters" can't fight. Reminds me of Boztepe and Cheung.


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## Hanzou (Aug 31, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Doesn't surprise me. Many "Masters" can't fight. Reminds me of Boztepe and Cheung.



Yep. Prime example;






But what's the point of this thread TSD? That Motobu was supposedly superior to Funakoshi?


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

tThey look like a couple of kids in the schoolyard that don't know how to fight. I especially like the girly punch LOL.


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## DaveB (Sep 1, 2015)

The nonsense some of you guys have posted about these fights is why senior martial artists and instructors don't do more tournaments.

When two people fight there is a winner and a loser. Losing a fight against someone better doesn't mean you can't fight. Winning doesn't mean that you can teach.

Funakoshi understood fighting and how to use karate to do it. We know this because of his writing: some of the details he added were not things someone without that experience could have added.

That he lost a fight as an old man to a younger stronger karateka after only teaching others for years, doesn't really tell us anything.

And as for the kung fu masters, aside from the lack of boxing guard (the defining factor of effective fighting for many mma junkieso who critique others) they look no worse than Chuck Liddell did when striking. Again you are.looking at people who have probably not fought in years from a time when protective gear was rare. What do you expect, a Donnie Yen scene?


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> That he lost a fight as an old man to a younger stronger karateka after only teaching others for years, doesn't really tell us anything.



This bears repeating.
Ohtsuka Sensei stayed good friends with Funakoshi, their differences didn't interfere with their friendship.


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

Sorry. I called it the way I saw it. Regardless of their age and status. In my opinon, they both looked like terrible fighters at that point. Not trying to hurt anyones feelings.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yep. Prime example;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Problem you have with this is there are people still alive that were there and my sifu was there with his sifu (Tung Ying Chieh, who is the guy at the beginning doing the form, he was not one of the fighters)

A challenge was made, but no one understood why the older Wu took it up and not the younger.

It was hyped and billed much like the Ali Fraser fights. Many tickets were sold too. However the majority of the audience, including the other CMA people there thought it was rather pathetic, there was much booing and calls for money back.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

The reasons, I mentioned this fight is Funakoshi called Motobu Choki an illiterate on many occasions.

Some (Motobu's students) have said it was not inability to speak mainland Japanese, but royal pride refusing to acquiesce to the language and customs of a subjugating culture, that kept Motobu from speaking Japanese while in Japan, and almost always using an Okinawan translator.

Point number one. Be careful what you say about others, in the real world. It may come back to haunt you and your students.

Point number two. If what you say about other instructors causes them to challenge fight...and you lose decisively... Expect to lose good students... Even if they think you were right in what you said.

Students of MAs generally want better fighting ability, and if the perception exists that one teach is significantly better at fighting then their present one, some will jump ship. In the end, some people's loyalty ends with themselves.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> The nonsense some of you guys have posted about these fights is why senior martial artists and instructors don't do more tournaments.
> 
> When two people fight there is a winner and a loser. Losing a fight against someone better doesn't mean you can't fight. Winning doesn't mean that you can teach.
> 
> ...



I never said Funakoshi lost because he couldn't fight.
Your response here is clearly insinuating that I did say or imply that.

My contention is both could fight, but one was a superior fighter to the other. Funakoshi's methods and Motobu's method of training when Motobu was a  young man led to very different Karateka.

I would venture to say even if they were the exact same age I would put 10000 yen on Mutobu every time.

As for as the age difference.. it was two years. It was not an unfair fight with regard to age difference. *Funakoshi Gichin (1868 – 1957) *and *Motobu Choki (1870-1944)*

This puts both men in their early 50s. like between 50-53.
It is folly to assume 50 year olds don't have what it takes to fight, because they are not young men, and cannot fight like a young man.

I know some incredibly dangerous 50 year olds, that I would prefer never to get into a fight with.

I once briefly met a very deadly man who is now 79. This man was already a martial artist before he trained under Bruce Lee for a very long time. This is a man, who I would not even raise my voice in anger with. Not because I respect him. (and I do) but because I would prefer to not take a chance in having the taste knocked out of my mouth.

Motobu Choki had just defeated a Russian boxer in a "all takers, bar none" fight ring which helped put Okinawan Karate into the mainland Japanese awareness. It didn't help matters that Kingu Magazine chose to "incorrectly" Illustrate the fight using the image of Funakoshi instead of Motobu.
Which only served to escalate tensions between the two.

As for your statement: "_That he lost a fight as an old man to a younger stronger karateka after only teaching others for years, doesn't really tell us anything._"

We can clearly see it doesn't apply here.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The reasons, I mentioned this fight is Funakoshi called Motobu Choki an illiterate on many occasions.



And?

Where does your 'story' fit in with Ohtsuka Sensei then? Are you suggesting he was just a lowly student of Funakoshi?
The History of Wado Ryu

There is, it seems, no confirmation of this story of the fight other than the quote from 'David Chambers', someone whose name seems to be connected to a lot of rebuttals against his articles.

I think this is more style and now people bashing. *If *they fought what does ascribing words and ideas to them mean to us? It certainly doesn't mean what you want it to I think.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I never said Funakoshi lost because he couldn't fight.
> My contention is both could fight, but one was a suppior fighter to the other. Funakoshi's methods and Motobu's method of training when Motobu was a  young man led to very different Karateka.
> 
> I would venture to say even if they were the same age I would put 10000 yen on Mutobu every time




And this is relevant to us how?


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

A little background on these two men, who were always in conflict and disparaging of each other, but also managed to share.

FightingArts.com - Funakoshi vs. Motobu - Part 1
FightingArts.com - Choki Motobu: Through The Myth ... To the Man - Part 1
Choki Motobu - Fight Times Magazine
Motobu & Funakoshi – The Habu & The Mongoose | KARATE by Jesse


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> And as for the kung fu masters, aside from the lack of boxing guard (the defining factor of effective fighting for many mma junkieso who critique others) they look no worse than Chuck Liddell did when striking. Again you are.looking at people who have probably not fought in years from a time when protective gear was rare. What do you expect, a Donnie Yen scene?



I expect at least a grade-school level of martial skill. Especially if those two are supposedly experts in their arts. 

Also if you really think that resembles anything like a chuck lidell striking style, you need to watch a Lidell fight again.


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## DaveB (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I never said Funakoshi lost because he couldn't fight.
> Your response here is clearly insinuating that I did say or imply that.
> 
> My contention is both could fight, but one was a superior fighter to the other. Funakoshi's methods and Motobu's method of training when Motobu was a  young man led to very different Karateka.
> ...



Actually I wasn't thinking of you at all as your opening post made no comment either way.

Fair enough about the age, I thought the gap was bigger. However, that makes no difference to what I was saying. Motobu was a better fighter. So? How does barging in on a guys lesson to fight him disprove a claim of illiteracy?

Motobu went out to the red light district and picked fights to test his skills. GF was a school teacher. What exactly is your point?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I never said Funakoshi lost because he couldn't fight.
> Your response here is clearly insinuating that I did say or imply that.
> 
> My contention is both could fight, but one was a superior fighter to the other. Funakoshi's methods and Motobu's method of training when Motobu was a  young man led to very different Karateka.
> ...



Because of editing time limits I  have to continue this as a reply..

The following is a quote from Graham Noble:
_The change from Gichin Funakoshi's original 1922 karate to modern Shotokan was a gradual process, but in many respects the style was there by the mid-1930s among some of the younger trainees. The change arose from several sources: Funakoshi himself, his son Yoshitaka and his associates, from a general infusion of new blood into the art and over the last three decades the contribution of the Japan Karate Association and its instructors. *But if we go back a little to the 1935 edition of, "Karate-do Kyohan" it seems to me that Funakoshi sensei's personal karate did not go much beyond there, that is a karate based primarily on the practice of kata, augmented by yaku soku (prearranged) kumite and makiwara (striking board) practice. Funakoshi did not care for jiyu-kumite (free sparring) and even in that era he drew some criticism from other (Japanese) teachers for what they saw as his overemphasis on kata.* Such teachers were familiar with the free-play of judo and kendo and felt that something of that sort should be introduced to karate. That was a new idea to Funakoshi and, because of long established habits of mind, something that he had difficulty coming to terms with._

Now.. this observation by Graham is important because Funakoshi was old school "Te"... Ie "Karate is kata, Kata is Karate". There was a huge gap here between him and Motobu. Motobu had very high appreciation for Kata and said without Kata you could not know Karate. Or how to how to hold the right stance in a real fight without kata. Motobu was ahead of his contemporaries, as a young man because he was doing street testing of his "Te" in the red light district against real opponents in real fights. He won a fair number, but his losses drove him to harder training.

Funakoshi had a low view of free fight kumite
Motobu had a high view of kumite but not just kumite against other karateka in the dojo. He practiced and tested his art with real world opponents in the streets of Shuri.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Actually I wasn't thinking of you at all as your opening post made no comment either way.
> 
> Fair enough about the age, I thought the gap was bigger. However, that makes no difference to what I was saying. Motobu was a better fighter. So? How does barging in on a guys lesson to fight him disprove a claim of illiteracy?
> 
> Motobu went out to the red light district and picked fights to test his skills. GF was a school teacher.



As far as I am aware, this duel didn't happen in Funakoshi's dojo, while a class was in session.

Also, we both posted on the red light district training at the same time, and yes, this had a big impact on Motobu as both a teacher (different understanding because of practical application learned in the "doing" vs theory driven education) and as a fighter. 
I doubt he would have stepped into a fighting ring with a Russian boxer if he hasn't done his red light training.


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## DaveB (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I expect at least a grade-school level of martial skill. Especially if those two are supposedly experts in their arts.
> 
> Also if you really think that resembles anything like a chuck lidell striking style, you need to watch a Lidell fight again.



I did look again and I stand by my statement.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> A little background on these two men, who were always in conflict and disparaging of each other, but also managed to share.
> 
> FightingArts.com - Funakoshi vs. Motobu - Part 1
> FightingArts.com - Choki Motobu: Through The Myth ... To the Man - Part 1
> ...



Actually good links here, three out of these four were already in my bookmarks sometime ago.

The Karate by Jesse link I read about ten days after my birthday about 5 years ago. Was the best gift I got that year.

Great compilation of source quotes, and showing our great Karate Forefathers were men just like the rest of us.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> As far as I am aware, this duel didn't happen in Funakoshi's dojo, while a class was in session.
> .




If you read the links Elder posted you will find this is just what did happen and wasn't a 'duel' as such.

I don't know what you are hoping to achieve with this thread, you seem to have several ideas that actually contradict each other going on. Also this 'legendary duel' may or may not have happened, every source I've seen says it was reported to have happened but there's little proof one way or another other than hearsay. Do you have proof it happened?


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## DaveB (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> As far as I am aware, this duel didn't happen in Funakoshi's dojo, while a class was in session.
> 
> Also, we both posted on the red light district training at the same time, and yes, this had a big impact on Motobu as both a teacher (different understanding because of practical application learned in the "doing" vs theory driven education) and as a fighter.
> I doubt he would have stepped into a fighting ring with a Russian boxer if he hasn't done his red light training.



I would hesitate to call picking fights training.

It was Motobu himself who in an interview said he barged in on a class. He didn't mention menacing GF with his fist though.

I disagree with Mr Noble. From reading his work I think GF was fine with kumite, but that he didn't feel most of his students were ready. I think GF was against turning karate into a sport.

And again, all this leads to a big "So what?!"
Because Motobu was a better fighter it doesn't make the same true for his students. The art was passed down via kata so the proficiency of any one teacher is meaningless unless you are talking about their teaching skills.


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## DaveB (Sep 1, 2015)

Also I have to say that Funakoshi was not sent to teach fighting karate. He was sent to teach karate of good character. 

Cultural revolution had happened and do, not jutsu was the order of the day. It speaks to Funakoshi's beliefs that he always entreated us to seek the real art within the kata and practice accordingly.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> I would hesitate to call picking fights training.
> 
> It was Motobu himself who in an interview said he barged in on a class. He didn't mention menacing GF with his fist though.
> 
> ...



I would like to see the source of the quote that says explicitly says he interrupted Funakoshi's class in progress. I have seen a fair number of supposed quotes that insinuate that it was Funakoshi's class that was interrupted but actually use (inserted name here, but not actually present in the text) to convey that notion.

I have been looking for about four years. I haven't found it yet.

GF seemed fine with scripted Kumite ala 1steps, which is a different animal than the free kumite.

Two different training methods, different outcomes when world's collide.

Motobu in his younger years saw a use for practical testing in a real world setting that impacted both his teaching and his fighting.
If you know something works because it was tested, and validated in real fights, you will not likely approach your teaching from a purely academic view.

You hesitate to call picking fights training.
I have no such hesitation, the very nature of challenge fighting is an excellent source of training. It shows you,  your combative weaknesses that should be addressed. Finding an area that has semi-regular streetfighting and engaging a willing opponent has good value as a training aid.

The amount of confidence in techniques that are validated firsthand, have a bearing in what your teaching others. I know this works, as opposed to "it is said...that this works".


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Also I have to say that Funakoshi was not sent to teach fighting karate. He was sent to teach karate of good character.
> 
> Cultural revolution had happened and do, not jutsu was the order of the day. It speaks to Funakoshi's beliefs that he always entreated us to seek the real art within the kata and practice accordingly.




OK... "who" sent Funakoshi?
second question about what has been posted.
What is this "karate of good character" that you mention?
Funakoshi didn't exactly model or was a paragon of such as you seem to think.
I love Funakoshi... but like everyone who doesn't practice what they preach.. take em with a grain of salt.

The ending of Samurai Culture didn't have a lot of bearing on the whole "Jutsu" vs "Do" within "Te". "Te" whether it be the earlier types of Tou-Te or later named Kara-Te of the 1920s-1940s were not derived from the Samurai martial arts. Quite the opposite, Te was partly developed as an unarmed self defense martial art by Okinawans against Japanese armed Samurai. The "Do" vs "Jutsu" divide didn't really exist in the same way as it did within the Koryu of the japanese mainland, in arts like Kenjutsu or Kyujutsu that would become Kendo or Kyudo.

This is a false dichotomy, if you bring it to "Te" which never was a caste warrior' s art that needed to be "civilized" or toned down for a new era.

eh.. Which leads to a "so what" of my own.
Obviously there is something here of notice otherwise we wouldn't be chatting about it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> You hesitate to call picking fights training.



For many reasons it's not training, it's merely fighting. Who is he picking fights with? Drunks, 'bouncers', the hard men or just anyone who annoys him? Is he jumping them or calling them out, is it a fair fight or one where he could lose, so no, not training but fighting.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2015)

So what were saying here is this thread will turn out to be a legendary fight between posters


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> So what were saying here is this thread will turn out to be a legendary fight between posters



Or  "not" fight, as there are some whom I am avoiding any discussions, or debate with. A certain modicum of decorum will maintained, even if silence is my only direct answer.

"Wink"


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I would like to see the source of the quote that says explicitly says he interrupted Funakoshi's class in progress. I have seen a fair number of supposed quotes that insinuate that it was Funakoshi's class that was interrupted but actually use (inserted name here, but not actually present in the text) to convey that notion..


 
_"When I first came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan [Funakoshi] who was teaching Karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard of his name! Upon guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up a position of kake-kumite and said, ‘what will you do?'”_
This quote from Motobu was written in _*“Ryukyu Kenpo Karate-jutsu Tatsujin Motobu Choki Seiden*” _by Nakata Mizuhiko (translated by Joe Swift) and as you already see, their first meeting was everything but peaceful.
*How did the meeting end?*
The quote continues:
_“He [Funakoshi] was hesitant and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi (a wrist throw common to jujutsu and aikido) at which time he fell to the ground with a large thud. He got up, his face red and said ‘once more.’ And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time.” _


I believe Patrick McCarthy might be a source for a proper translation of the book in question.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Or  "not" fight, as there are some whom I am avoiding any discussions, or debate with. A certain modicum of decorum will maintained, even if silence is my only direct answer.
> 
> "Wink"




Oh dear he's thrown his teddy bear out of the cot again. A modicum of decorum eh, that means a monologue by him. Oh well, it ended badly last time, we'll wait and see shall we.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

I happen to own several versions of Motobu's _Ryukyu_ _Kenpo Karate-jutsu  _as well as his other work. In the passage, the name Funakoshi is not present, it is supplied within parentheses to let the reader know who the translator thinks is being referred to.

There are other translators who have not added the name Funakoshi to the text. And I do hold Patrick McCarthy in highest esteem, as both artist and martial arts historian.

The fact that translators are not in agreement here and the use of parenthetical brackets around Funakoshi's name does a lot damage to the case that this event is exactly what is being passed off as Funakoshi being tossed here.

It could have been a different instructor with his students.
But let's say it was in fact, Funakoshi...
Now, of course there are different versions of this altercation. Here’s another alleged take on the exact same story, found in _“Karatedo wo Kataru Genzai no Budo Teki Shiten”_ written by Konishi Yasuhiro:

_“I heard that Motobu met Funakoshi and they talked about how various attacks could be effectively received, when Motobu asked him to show him a block against a punch. When Funakoshi blocked the technique Motobu seized his hand and threw him about three and a half meters. I’m not sure if this is true or not but I do know that since that time Funakoshi hated Motobu very much, referring to him as an illiterate.”
_
As these events were not caught on film, and we only have written accounts... Some first hand, some second hand. I tend to not be as skeptical as some others here at MT. The problem is which one of several versions of an event is the real one?

The fact that there are several views of the same event that are not identical tells me an event did take place, and that it is not mere fabricated oral mythology.

My objection to DaveB was multipart. One part was that I had not found evidence that led me to believe the fight happened in Funakoshi's dojo, in front of his students, while class was in session.

I dont think he interrupted a class in session. Even if it was true that he fought Funakoshi in front of his students at Funakoshi's dojo.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The fact that there are several views of the same event that are not identical tells me an event did take place, and that it is not mere fabricated oral mythology.



Obviously I don't think you are experienced in how rumour and conjecture are formed. There are countless examples of incidents that have never happened or happened differently from the common view, just look at Snopes. Throughout history there have been events that people will swear happened or happened they way they think it did.





TSDTexan said:


> *My objection to DaveB* was multipart. One part was that I had not found evidence that led me to believe the fight happened in Funakoshi's dojo, in front of his students, while class was in session.



It's usual to object to what someone has written not to object to the poster.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> A little background on these two men, who were always in conflict and disparaging of each other, but also managed to share.
> 
> FightingArts.com - Funakoshi vs. Motobu - Part 1
> FightingArts.com - Choki Motobu: Through The Myth ... To the Man - Part 1
> ...



Journal of Combative Sport: Master Choki Motobu
A good link here as well.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I happen to own several versions of Motobu's _Ryukyu_ _Kenpo Karate-jutsu  _as well as his other work. In the passage, the name Funakoshi is not present, it is supplied within parentheses to let the reader know who the translator thinks is being referred to.
> 
> There are other translators who have not added the name Funakoshi to the text. And I do hold Patrick McCarthy in highest esteem, as both artist and martial arts historian.
> 
> ...


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> I did look again and I stand by my statement.










Okay.....


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Okay.....


Wow... Having seen both of these before...and yet I never connected the two like this before. Hanzou... Looking at this... I gotta say you are right. Old masters do punch like Chuck Liddell.


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Wow... Having seen both of these before...and yet I never connected the two like this before. Hanzou... Looking at this... I gotta say you are right. Old masters do punch like Chuck Liddell.



I suppose you missed the part where the Kung fu "master" performed the windmill. The same thing children do when they get into fights.

On a more serious note, there's a difference between punching with power and direction, and swinging wildly trying to hit anything you can.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> . Finding an area that has semi-regular streetfighting and engaging a willing opponent has good value as a training aid.


Until you end up in jail


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I suppose you missed the part where the Kung fu "master" performed the windmill. The same thing children do when they get into fights.


Not even close again you show your lack of knowledge on the topic


> On a more serious note, there's a difference between punching with power and direction, and swinging wildly trying to hit anything you can.


neither clip showed the latter


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Not even close again you show your lack of knowledge on the topic



View the end of the gif. The Kung Fu guy is windmilling like a little kid.



> neither clip showed the latter



They why did Tito Ortiz hit the canvas?


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> View the end of the gif. The Kung Fu guy is windmilling like a little kid.


 
"Windmilling" punches are part of Shaolin Long Fist practice-of course, you know that.


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> "Windmilling" punches are part of Shaolin Long Fist practice-of course, you know that.



Says quite a lot about Shaolin Long Fist practice doesn't it?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> "Windmilling" punches are part of Shaolin Long Fist practice-of course, you know that.



More to the point, I believe the fight was between a Wu Taiji guy and a Tibetan white crane guy.  I can understand why someone at Hanzou's level of comprehension would call what he sees "windmilling", which speaks volumes.  I'm no longer inclined to offer him an education and he is welcome to believe what he wants.  My comment here is really just to let Elder know, it's not shaolin, it's Tibetan crane.  Funny thing is, it's the Taiji guy who is doing the "windmilling" < snicker snicker >  but some folks (and I'm not referring to Elder here) wouldn't know the difference anyway.  But that's not important.  And anyone who thinks that what is going on is "windmilling" deserves to be snickered at.


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

Except "windmilling" was exactly what was going on. It tends to happen when you have two individuals who can't fight their way out of a paper bag. They both did that same motion at different points in that "fight".


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Except "windmilling" was exactly what was going on. It tends to happen when you have two individuals who can't fight their way out of a paper bag. They both did that same motion at different points in that "fight".


Snicker snicker.
School is closed.  Believe what you want.  The comment wasn't meant for you anyway.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Says quite a lot about Shaolin Long Fist practice doesn't it?


Style bashing again? Do you have any training in Shaolin Long Fist to name judgement?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

How did Funakoshi really feel about jiyu kumite (free fighting)?
Well this is what Richard Kim said in an article about GF in Blackbelt magazine:

_When he moved to Japan in 1922, he stayed with other Okinawans at a students’ dormitory in Tokyo. He lived in a small room alongside the entrance and would clean the dormitory during the day when the students were in class. At night, he would teach them karate. After a short time, he’d earned sufficient money to open a dojo.

Funakoshi started visiting the Shichi Tokudo, a barracks located on palace grounds, every other day to teach and was always accompanied by Hidenori Otsuka, one of his most brilliant students. 

In 1927 three senior students decided that the kata practice they had been focusing on was not enough. They introduced jiyu kumite (free fighting) in their training, so they created protective clothing and wore kendo masks to shield their faces against hard strikes. Funakoshi heard about these bouts and, when he could not discourage them — he considered them belittling to the art of karate — he stopped coming to the Shichi Tokudo._


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## jks9199 (Sep 1, 2015)

Folks, 
Let's try to keep the heat and shots against either people or styles down.


----------



## DaveB (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan, you would be better off writing articles. As seems to be the pattern with the long twisting histories you write, you obviously know the answer to the question you ask but are waiting to contradict it with something questionable. 

The thing is I'm not that into the history except as a guide to applying the art. So continuing a historical debate in a thread whose point you refuse to give is a non starter. Suffice to say that I disagree about Funakoshi's beliefs on sparring, about the relevance of the jutsu/do distinction in GF's teaching and that there is ever a useful conclusion to be drawn from a challenge match. And please don't put words in my mouth. I never once suggested that Funakoshi was any sort of Saint.


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

Ballen, I see you disagreed with my posts. does that mean you think that was good fighting? Is that how you fight?? LOL


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Ballen, I see you disagreed with my posts. does that mean you think that was good fighting? Is that how you fight?? LOL


What is it that you see in the video?


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

FC, I see bad fighting. Especially considering these guys are "Masters"? What do you see. I'm curious.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> FC, I see bad fighting. Especially considering these guys are "Masters"? What do you see. I'm curious.


I see a spectator event.

Given that I study one of the methods seen there, I can actually see the principles in action, which is saying something given the grainy and poor quality of the film.  But I know what I am looking at, beyond simply a fight, or "bad fighting" as you call it.

Am I impressed with this?  No.  I don't know the status of the Taiji guy at that time, but the crane guy  was a young man at the time, not a "master".  So the whole thing about masters can't fight, well...

Does this exhibition bother me?  Not in the least.  It is an event that was, in that era, rarely captured on film.  Does that man represent me, or the system I study?  Nope.  He represents himself, so far as I am concerned.  This event happened a decade or two before I was born, it means nothing to me.  There is all kinds of bad fighting going on out there.  None of it means anything to me.  Some people get pretty hung up over what they see on video.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Doesn't surprise me. Many "Masters" can't fight. Reminds me of Boztepe and Cheung.





Tames D said:


> Ballen, I see you disagreed with my posts. does that mean you think that was good fighting? Is that how you fight?? LOL


Who are these "many" masters that you know that makes you qualified to make that statement?  That's what i disagree with.  How many masters do you know that can't fight?  

As for what it looked like I don't know enough about what was going in off a short clip to make that determination.  As to how my fighting will look well I don't fight.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> Let's try to keep the heat and shots against either people or styles down.



Roger


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

Ballen....Yeah right...


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Who are these "many" masters that you know that makes you qualified to make that statement?  That's what i disagree with.  How many masters do you know that can't fight?
> 
> As for what it looked like I don't know enough about what was going in off a short clip to make that determination.  As to how my fighting will look well I don't fight.


It's not hard to see what's going on there. Bad fighting.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Ballen....Yeah right...


So who are all these masters that can't fight?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> It's not hard to see what's going on there. Bad fighting.


According to you.  Feel free to post up a clip of you fighting well


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## Hanzou (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> How did Funakoshi really feel about jiyu kumite (free fighting)?
> Well this is what Richard Kim said in an article about GF in Blackbelt magazine:
> 
> _When he moved to Japan in 1922, he stayed with other Okinawans at a students’ dormitory in Tokyo. He lived in a small room alongside the entrance and would clean the dormitory during the day when the students were in class. At night, he would teach them karate. After a short time, he’d earned sufficient money to open a dojo.
> ...



Fortunately Funakoshi's later students ended the practice of not practicing free sparring. Kata training is simply not enough to develop proper fighting technique, as this episode and several others have demonstrated.


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

Give it a rest dude. you and I both know there are "Masters" out there that can't fight. Are you ignorant?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> TSDTexan, you would be better off writing articles. As seems to be the pattern with the long twisting histories you write, you obviously know the answer to the question you ask but are waiting to contradict it with something questionable.
> 
> The thing is I'm not that into the history except as a guide to applying the art. So continuing a historical debate in a thread whose point you refuse to give is a non starter. Suffice to say that I disagree about Funakoshi's beliefs on sparring, about the relevance of the jutsu/do distinction in GF's teaching and that there is ever a useful conclusion to be drawn from a challenge match. And please don't put words in my mouth. I never once suggested that Funakoshi was any sort of Saint.




Please forgive me, if thats what you think I did. I don't think I put words into your mouth. 
But if your perception is that I did, I apologize. 
Many do not realize that their perception is not reality, but their opinion about reality. And for them it IS reality.
If you think I put words in your mouth, I am truly sorry. And I deeply mean that.
This is actually a pet peeve of my own.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Give it a rest dude. you and I both know there are "Masters" out there that can't fight. Are you ignorant?


Sure there are a few,  your claim was many.   By contrast by the time some masters are old enough to claim the title master they can't even walk up stairs anymore without help.  It doesn't make them less knowledgeable


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Kata training is simply not enough to develop proper fighting technique,


Only for the folks that just don't get it......


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> Sure there are a few,  your claim was many.   By contrast by the time some masters are old enough to claim the title master they can't even walk up stairs anymore without help.  It doesn't make them less knowledgeable



Knowledge and fighting ability are two different things. I was commenting on a video of two guys that were having a problem fighting their way out of a paper bag. Not sure what your point is?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2015)

Here's an interesting little factoid: MMA has one of the worst fight records of any method, as is documented over and over on video and televised events such as UFC and other venues.  I mean, the record is HORRIBLE.  Fully 50% of people who enter a fight after training in an MMA gym and using those methods LOSE THE FIGHT!!  We see it in the videos all the time.  Those guys who lose the fight, they trained in MMA!!  that little clip earlier in this thread with Tito Ortiz going down, he trained MMA!  That's a pretty piss-poor example on display there.  Who would train in such a pathetic method with such a poor record?  Literally, I may as well flip a coin to decide the outcome.  The odds are the same.  I mean sure, just about exactly 50% win their fights so they must be doing SOMETHING right, but my god, look at the numbers, 50% still lose!  MMA does NOTHING to improve your odds above purely random chance of winning a fight.  It's well documented, on video!


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> Knowledge and fighting ability are two different things. I was commenting on a video of two guys that were having a problem fighting their way out of a paper bag. Not sure what your point is?


No you said "MANY" masters can't fight (yet you won't name these many).  Knowledge is what makes you a master.  A master may get too old to fight it doesn't make them less of a master.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Here's an interesting little factoid: MMA has one of the worst fight records of any method, as is documented over and over on video and televised events such as UFC and other venues.  I mean, the record is HORRIBLE.  Fully 50% of people who enter a fight after training in an MMA gym and using those methods LOSE THE FIGHT!!  We see it in the videos all the time.  Those guys who lose the fight, they trained in MMA!!  that little clip earlier in this thread with Tito Ortiz going down, he trained MMA!  That's a pretty piss-poor example on display there.  Who would train in such a pathetic method with such a poor record?  Literally, I may as well flip a coin to decide the outcome.  The odds are the same.  I mean sure, just about exactly 50% win their fights so they must be doing SOMETHING right, but my god, look at the numbers, 50% still lose!  MMA does NOTHING to improve your odds above purely random chance of winning a fight.  It's well documented, on video!



Ouch... but what about the double left hook double knockouts of Boxing... MMA has to be batting at higher averages then 50% against things like boxing... where both fighters can lose simultaneously. And NO Tyler Brian and Shaun Parker Knockout of each other doesn't count. 

double knockouts have got to be like flipping a coin.. and the coin saying "Aww Flip this! I am gonna land on EDGE... like a BOSS"


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> No you said "MANY" masters can't fight (yet you won't name these many).  Knowledge is what makes you a master.  A master may get too old to fight it doesn't make them less of a master.


I only care about fighting ability. That what matters when someone is getting in your face. the "Master" thing is a joke.


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> View attachment 19478


That's not the book. It's another.


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> More to the point, I believe the fight was between a Wu Taiji guy and a Tibetan white crane guy.  I can understand why someone at Hanzou's level of comprehension would call what he sees "windmilling", which speaks volumes.  I'm no longer inclined to offer him an education and he is welcome to believe what he wants.*  My comment here is really just to let Elder know, it's not shaolin, it's Tibetan crane.*  Funny thing is, it's the Taiji guy who is doing the "windmilling" < snicker snicker >  but some folks (and I'm not referring to Elder here) wouldn't know the difference anyway.  But that's not important.  And anyone who thinks that what is going on is "windmilling" deserves to be snickered at.


Thanks, I knew all that-I was just using it as an example....there's similar movements in quite a few other things.....thanks, though.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 1, 2015)

Tames D said:


> I only care about fighting ability. That what matters when someone is getting in your face. the "Master" thing is a joke.


I have no doubt that's all you care about


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> double knockouts have got to be like flipping a coin.. and the coin saying "Aww Flip this! I am gonna land on EDGE... like a BOSS"


OH MY GAWD, DOUBLE LOSS!!!!!!!  ITS EVEN WORSE THAN I THOUGHT!!!  Two MMA guys enter a fight, and NEITHER ONE IS GOOD ENOUGH TO WIN!!!!  How does MMA even survive??!!


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> _"When I first came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan [Funakoshi] who was teaching Karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard of his name! Upon guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up a position of kake-kumite and said, ‘what will you do?'”_
> This quote from Motobu was written in _*“Ryukyu Kenpo Karate-jutsu Tatsujin Motobu Choki Seiden*” _by Nakata Mizuhiko (translated by Joe Swift) and as you already see, their first meeting was everything but peaceful.
> *How did the meeting end?*
> The quote continues:
> ...



#37. _When I came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan who was teaching karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard his name. Upon the guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up the position of kake-kumite and said “What will you do?” He was hesitant, and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi at which he fell to the ground with a thud. He got up, his face red, and said “once more” so we took up the position of kake-kumite again. And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time._
COLLECTION OF SAYINGS BY MOTOBU CHOKI By Nakata Mizuhiko, Overseen by Marukawa, 1978 Translation © 2001 by Joe Swift

I dont see Funakoshi in the quote.
Also, I dont think of Funakoshi as a braggart who teaches kids. But even if we allow for youngster to mean mid 20s..
Given who taught Funakoshi back in Okinawa... I find it hard to believe that Motobu never heard of Him in 4 or 5 decades, of traveling in the same circles.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

DaveB said:


> TSDTexan, you would be better off writing articles. As seems to be the pattern with the long twisting histories you write, you obviously know the answer to the question you ask but are waiting to contradict it with something questionable.
> 
> The thing is I'm not that into the history except as a guide to applying the art. So continuing a historical debate in a thread whose point you refuse to give is a non starter. Suffice to say that I disagree about Funakoshi's beliefs on sparring, about the relevance of the jutsu/do distinction in GF's teaching and that there is ever a useful conclusion to be drawn from a challenge match. And please don't put words in my mouth. I never once suggested that Funakoshi was any sort of Saint.




But I did ask you who "sent" Funakoshi... Because you asserted that he was sent.
And you said something about him teaching "Karate of good character" that was not fighting Karate. 
This notion actually messes with my head.
A "Te" that was not even about empty hand self defense? That He taught?
What you present....here... Is something that doesn't exactly line up with the historical events, or his teaching.


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## elder999 (Sep 1, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> #37. _When I came to Tokyo, there was another Okinawan who was teaching karate there quite actively. When in Okinawa I hadn’t even heard his name. Upon the guidance of another Okinawan, I went to the place he was teaching youngsters, where he was running his mouth, bragging. Upon seeing this, I grabbed his hand, took up the position of kake-kumite and said “What will you do?” He was hesitant, and I thought to punch him would be too much, so I threw him with kote-gaeshi at which he fell to the ground with a thud. He got up, his face red, and said “once more” so we took up the position of kake-kumite again. And again I threw him with kote-gaeshi. He did not relent and asked for another bout, so he was thrown the same way for a third time._
> COLLECTION OF SAYINGS BY MOTOBU CHOKI By Nakata Mizuhiko, Overseen by Marukawa, 1978 Translation © 2001 by Joe Swift
> 
> I dont see Funakoshi in the quote.
> ...



All of which says LOADS about how little you understand about the culture, and what these men did know and think about each other.  Not a big deal-"cultural ignorance" is a pretty common shortcoming for *all* of us, in one way or another.

It's Funakoshi of whom he speaks, and none other-believe what you like.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 1, 2015)

elder999 said:


> All of which says LOADS about how little you understand about the culture, and what these men did know and think about each other.  Not a big deal-"cultural ignorance" is a pretty common shortcoming for *all* of us, in one way or another.
> 
> It's Funakoshi of whom he speaks, and none other-believe what you like.




Ok.


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## Tames D (Sep 1, 2015)

ballen0351 said:


> I have no doubt that's all you care about


It's a good thing you carry a gun. LOL


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## DaveB (Sep 2, 2015)

Hanzou, how many clips of liddell did you have to go through to find the one where most of his shots were on target?

Do you not think it might be easier to land shots when your opponent is standing still doing nothing as in the Liddell gif?

Lastly the difference between unskilled windmilling and what happens in the kung fu gif is that the unskilled look away. Your kungfu fighters kept eyes on the opponent even while fists were flying hence a number of blows were deflected.

At the end of the gif what I see are repeated hammer fist strikes, but if you are just glancing and judging you will miss it.

Your comment about shoalin is interesting. It suggests a dogmatic view of what constitutes effective martial arts. Yet MMA grows every time someone comes along who can do something different, so why so many of its devotees have such limited ideas is beyond me.


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## Hanzou (Sep 2, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Hanzou, how many clips of liddell did you have to go through to find the one where most of his shots were on target?



Honestly it was the first one I found. Liddell is known for being a pretty effective striker in MMA. I can find more clips if you like. It's not like they're hard to find.



> Do you not think it might be easier to land shots when your opponent is standing still doing nothing as in the Liddell gif?



Ortiz was cornered against the cage, so he had nowhere to go at that point. It happens in Boxing and MMA rather frequently. I do hope you're not trying to argue that those kung fu guys are more effective strikers than a modern boxer or MMA fighter. If you put Liddell in that ring with one of those guys, he would maul them.



> Lastly the difference between unskilled windmilling and what happens in the kung fu gif is that the unskilled look away. Your kungfu fighters kept eyes on the opponent even while fists were flying hence a number of blows were deflected.



There's nothing skilled about windmilling. Which is why you don't see trained fighters who make their living punching people ever use that technique. It's a sure-fire way to get yourself knocked out by a straight punch to the face.



> At the end of the gif what I see are repeated hammer fist strikes, but if you are just glancing and judging you will miss it.



I'll remember that next time I see a child windmilling in a fight; He's not doing the windmill, he's doing the Repeated hammer fist punch!

Let's also not forget that the child-like windmilling wasn't the only example of terrible fighting ability showcased in that kung fu masters video.


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## Hanzou (Sep 2, 2015)

Here's another comparison for good measure;








It's a good thing that guy avoided those deadly hammer fists!


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## DaveB (Sep 2, 2015)

> ="TSDTexan, post: 1722735, member: 33854"]But I did ask you who "sent" Funakoshi... Because you asserted that he was sent.
> And you said something about him teaching "Karate of good character" that was not fighting Karate.
> This notion actually messes with my head.
> A "Te" that was not even about empty hand self defense? That He taught?
> What you present....here... Is something that doesn't exactly line up with the historical events, or his teaching.



And I asked you what was the point of your posting this account of a fight.


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## DaveB (Sep 2, 2015)

Again, hand picking the best bits proves nothing. And for the record I never said I liked the fighting in the kung fu clip, but if you are going to judge it you should at least be accurate about it.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 2, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Let's try to keep the heat and shots against either people or styles down.


Do you mean groin level?


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 2, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Kata training is simply not enough to develop proper fighting technique


Kata, Hyung or, since we are talking about Kung Fu here, Forms is one of the best ways to develop technique.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 2, 2015)

DaveB said:


> And I asked you what was the point of your posting this account of a fight.



I answered that yesterday at 7:29 pm on this thread.
But in addition to that... I like to start conversations here at MT. Most of my threads have high post and response between users here. Who wants to be on a dead board?
I like lively even sported discussions.

Now, if you think this content is pointless... Why are you on this thread?

OK. So I have answered your question. Please tell me who sent Funakoshi, as you have stated this position.

Also, the question about "good character karate' that has no fighting Karate in it, still is waiting for an answer.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2015)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:
Please return to the original topic and keep the conversation polite, respectful, and professional. 
Further off topic posts or personal attacks will result in warning points being issued.

Mark A Cochran
Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2015)

*OK, I just read through this mess*....and as to the "fight between masters" that has been posted form China between a white crane guy and the Wu Taijiquan guy (who was the head of the Wu family at the time)

I said this way back in post #8

_Problem you have with this is there are people still alive that were there and my sifu was there with his sifu (Tung Ying Chieh), who is the guy at the beginning doing the form, he was not one of the fighters)

A challenge was made, but no one understood why the older Wu took it up and not the younger.

It was hyped and billed much like the Ali Fraser fights. Many tickets were sold too. However the majority of the audience, including the other CMA people there thought it was rather pathetic, there was much booing and calls for money back._

Even the other CMA people there, at that time, thought it was bad, so if anyone still wants to throw it out there as some generalized example of how bad masters are then you simply have no clue as to what you are talking about and simply looking to style bash on a national level. And if you are throwing it out there as an example of a good fight then you too have no idea what you are talking about and the people that were there, watching, spectators and martial artists alike, would not agree with you.

Sorry to burst balloons here, but that is what happened.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> .....so if anyone still wants to throw it out there as some generalized example of how bad masters are ........................



I think what we are seeing is trial by hearsay and trial by video. Bringing up accounts of fights that may or may not have happened just to show supposedly how one karate master is better than another is pointless. It brings nothing to any debate when one side is determined to be correct regardless and won't engage with those who clearly know more such as actual practitioners of CMA and people who know their karate history.
I know next to nothing about CMAs other than having done a small amount of JKD which I found difficult after years of karate, entirely down to me I'll add not the 'fault' of JKD and the excellent instructors. I would hesitate to post any video up of CMA's even if I thought the 'fighting' was bad, it's not for me to criticise another's style because in my ignorance I could miss a lot, the intent for a start, it's not unbelievable that a video could be made to show how not to do it, if the explanation is in a language we don't understand we can assume all the wrong things.
The desire for debate would be shown by welcoming opposite views, engaging in conversation and not style bashing, to _start_ a thread style bashing is an indication of wanting a combative and discordant thread.


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## DaveB (Sep 2, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Now, if you think this content is pointless... Why are you on this thread?



To express the view that drawing conclusions from such videos, like those on the first page of this thread, is poor reasoning. 

And with that done I shall depart. I don't keep hold of every source I read so you won't find the spirited debate you want with me.

As I understand things, Funakoshi was sent to promote karate as an extention of Itosu's work introducing karate into schools. Karate was introduced into schools as a mirror to the drilling (marching in time) done in European schools. Itosu, supported by Funakoshi wanted to use karate to build a strong disciplined Japanese youth to power the imperial war machine in the years to come.

This is why the art was "simplified" from what GF learned as a boy. Why kata was a mass exercise so different to what Motobu had known. 

The whole point of Funakoshi going over to Japan was to sell this militarisation tool. You can't sell.to an audience you don't understand so it's foolish to think you can sell an art in Koryu form when all native arts have had to be revised. Karate would never have been accepted. 

And with that I'm out. I can't remember where I got most of this stuff. Let it be a direction of study as I won't be trying to argue.


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## Tez3 (Sep 2, 2015)

DaveB said:


> To express the view that drawing conclusions from such videos, like those on the first page of this thread, is poor reasoning.



Indeed, you are right. Everything I have read about Funakoshi agrees on one thing, that he was a man of peace, wasn't a braggart and believed it was better to run away than fight yet he was more able to defend himself than most. To suggest he was a weakling, that he agreed to a duel which he then lost badly ( the only mention I can find of this is  that quoted on here, I can't find any other reference but there are references to his dojo being 'invaded'. I'm not a historian of Japanese martial arts nor of the culture so others may find these references where I couldn't) is to malign someone who was and is revered for his peaceful nature as well as his abilities in karate. I think it's a shame that, for the sake of appearing 'knowledgeable' someone must sneer at a master for supposedly 'losing' a fight he may well not have had is necessary.
I won't say I'm 'out' because it's been made quite obvious ( wink wink nudge nudge) that I'm being 'ignored' but I'm flattered so cheers for that. 
 I do remember reading about Funakoshi being distraught because his students had been killed in the world, he felt the loss badly, this I understand having lost two of my students in a war. For a man of peace this must have been a double blow.


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## Tames D (Sep 2, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Again, hand picking the best bits proves nothing. And for the record I never said I liked the fighting in the kung fu clip, but if you are going to judge it you should at least be accurate about it.


The videos speak for themselves. Are you saying the videos are not accurate? Then what are we suppose to go on? Your word? LOL. Look again at Chucks video and then the two "Masters". Chuck kicks ***. And the other two....well pathetic.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2015)

DaveB said:


> Again, hand picking the best bits proves nothing. And for the record I never said I liked the fighting in the kung fu clip, but if you are going to judge it you should at least be accurate about it.



I have an eye witness account, he was there, how accurate do you want to be about the CMA fight clip



Tames D said:


> The videos speak for themselves. Are you saying the videos are not accurate? Then what are we suppose to go on? Your word? LOL. Look again at Chucks video and then the two "Masters". Chuck kicks ***. And the other two....well pathetic.



Yes, yes it was, as EVERYONE who was there thought as well.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 3, 2015)

Tames D said:


> The videos speak for themselves. Are you saying the videos are not accurate? Then what are we suppose to go on? Your word? LOL. Look again at Chucks video and then the two "Masters". Chuck kicks ***. And the other two....well pathetic.


The question then becomes, what do you take from the video?  Do you see that as an endictment of Chinese martial arts as a whole?  Or of those two systems in particular?  Or of those two individuals?  Or is this simply one bad example?  

Even the best proponent can have a bad showing.  Or one might have a bad showing and go on to develop better skills later.  

So how do you view this?  What context do you give for your judgment, and do you make any room for possibilities?

After all, one could cherry-pick a video of someone being defeated, someone who otherwise had a winning record, and just focus on the loss and make the claim, "wow, this guy is such a loser, he sucks". 

But there is context to everything and If that is forgotten, then nonsense rules the day.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 3, 2015)

There's a long tradition in martial arts of passing on tales of decisive matches won by the founders or prominent exponents of the art.

I've learned to mostly discount these stories unless there is video evidence or substantial third party testimony. Often there is no evidence that the fight in question ever took place. Other times the self-serving bias of perception and memory mean that the participants end up telling very different accounts of what happened. Even if the fight actually did take place exactly according to the story, it doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of the intended message that soandso was the better fighter or suchandsuch was the better art. In my own personal experience, I have had matches where I beat opponents who were objectively much better than I was. It just so happened that on that particular day I got lucky or they were off their game. Drawing conclusions based on a single match is a bad idea. Drawing conclusions based on biased recollections of a single match that may or may not have taken place years ago is a very bad idea.


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## Hanzou (Sep 3, 2015)

No one was saying that that abysmal display was indicative of all Kung Fu everywhere in the world. The issue only bubbled over when someone made the dumb comment that that abysmal display looked like an MMA fight on a technical level.

I'm glad to see that not everyone has blinders on.


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## Tames D (Sep 3, 2015)

F


Flying Crane said:


> The question then becomes, what do you take from the video?  Do you see that as an endictment of Chinese martial arts as a whole?  Or of those two systems in particular?  Or of those two individuals?  Or is this simply one bad example?
> 
> Even the best proponent can have a bad showing.  Or one might have a bad showing and go on to develop better skills later.
> 
> ...


FC, I think you are over thinking my comments. I Judged the video on it's own merit. I don't judge CMA or anything else by this video. This was just bad fighting. Perhaps they both are great fighters and Masters of their art and had a bad day, but that does not make me think  what I saw was impressive, just the opposite,  Please feel free to justify the poor fighting abilities of these two men in this video. I am open minded. But I saw what I saw. I'm interested in reading your response but I will only read and will not respond. This is my last post on Martialtalk.
I've always respected your viewpoint in the past.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 4, 2015)

Tames D said:


> This is my last post on Martialtalk.



Sorry to hear that Tames...best of luck to you


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2015)

Tames D said:


> F
> 
> FC, I think you are over thinking my comments. I Judged the video on it's own merit. I don't judge CMA or anything else by this video. This was just bad fighting. Perhaps they both are great fighters and Masters of their art and had a bad day, but that does not make me think  what I saw was impressive, just the opposite,  Please feel free to justify the poor fighting abilities of these two men in this video. I am open minded. But I saw what I saw. I'm interested in reading your response but I will only read and will not respond. This is my last post on Martialtalk.
> I've always respected your viewpoint in the past.


I'm not trying to justify their poor performance, because it's true, it was poor.  I was just curious as to what you may or may not read from it.  Seems to me some people are quick to pass a blanket judgment based on limited examples.  If that isn't your way, you are better for it.


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2015)

Not to drag this up again, and I realize my Karate history is next to non-existent, but wasn't Funakoshi Gichin somewhat of a small fellah for the day, and wasn't Motubu Choki known for being several inches taller than most of his contemporaries, and heavily muscled to boot?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Not to drag this up again, and I realize my Karate history is next to non-existent, but wasn't Funakoshi Gichin somewhat of a small fellah for the day, and wasn't Motubu Choki known for being several inches taller than most of his contemporaries, and heavily muscled to boot?



Both were old dudes, Choki was fat... I mean pleasantly plump at about 5 foot 3 inches. 







Choki Motobu lifted a stone weight about 10 heaviver than Funakoshi to sholder height daily.

And here is Funakoshi... who was 5 foot even. So they were about 3 inches different in height. And a considerable strength difference as well.


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2015)

Do we know how big Funakoshi was?
 Just out of curiosity.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Do we know how big Funakoshi was?
> Just out of curiosity.



GF was around 5 feet tall (152.5cm) and weighed around 120 pounds (8 stone 8 pounds)


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2015)

Ah. I had the impression that there was a large size/weight difference between them.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Ah. I had the impression that there was a large size/weight difference between them.


There may have been a weight and strength mismatch.

Choki lifted a stone that was 10 pounds heavier than GF to his sholders daily.


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> There may have been a weight and strength mismatch.
> 
> Choki lifted a stone that was 10 pounds heavier than GF to his sholders daily.



Ouch. Poor Funakoshi. I was just wondering, because I've always had this impression of Funakoshi as a pretty little guy, and Motobu as a someone often described as a "beast," as a "giant", as an "ox." Hyperbole, I'm sure, but still...

Anyway, my first thought was, "Bantamweight versus Welterwieght, Welterwight wins!" and my reaction was, "yeah, so?"

I mean, a 5 foot, 120 pound version of Funakoshi would likely loose to a 5'3", 150 pound version of Funakoshi more often than not, no?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 23, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Ouch. Poor Funakoshi. I was just wondering, because I've always had this impression of Funakoshi as a pretty little guy, and Motobu as a someone often described as a "beast," as a "giant", as an "ox." Hyperbole, I'm sure, but still...
> 
> Anyway, my first thought was, "Bantamweight versus Welterwieght, Welterwight wins!" and my reaction was, "yeah, so?"
> 
> I mean, a 5 foot, 120 pound version of Funakoshi would likely loose to a 5'3", 150 pound version of Funakoshi more often than not, no?


The will of a man is not to be overlooked.
Nor should speed or skill.

Right after arriving in the US, Bruce Lee mixed it up with a retired semi-pro boxer. The boxer looked at the fight from weight classes. And he got whuuped by Lee.

Speaking of dogs and dogfighting there is an old quote that is on point.
It is not the size of the dog in the fight....
It is the size of the fight in the dog.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The will of a man is not to be overlooked.
> Nor should speed or skill.


Yep. But if will, speed, and skill are all comparable then size and strength and easily be the determining factors.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. But if will, speed, and skill are all comparable then size and strength and easily be the determining factors.


And I agree.

I think Choki had a speed, and an agility advantage. 
Also,  Choki had jettisoned most kata to and specialized in one. Which he did about 500 times a day.

 Specialist > Generalist.

Its not how much is known, its how well you know and can apply what you know.

In retrospect it was a serious mismatch.


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## Koshiki (Oct 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Specialist > Generalist.



Soooometimes, but there are limits. For example, the famed "thousand kicks once versus one kick thousands of times" matchup: Sure, one kick trained to perfection is great, but I think Mr. One-kick might have a rough time competing against someone with, say, three kicks, two strikes, and some basic grappling trained to a lesser degree of perfection...


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## TSDTexan (Oct 23, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Soooometimes, but there are limits. For example, the famed "thousand kicks once versus one kick thousands of times" matchup: Sure, one kick trained to perfection is great, but I think Mr. One-kick might have a rough time competing against someone with, say, three kicks, two strikes, and some basic grappling trained to a lesser degree of perfection...


Depends on how fast and with how much power he can deliver. It is hard to not telegraph a kick.
That being said... Bruce KOd a number of his student's with his non telegraphing punch.
The one that clocked in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second).

Seeing as visual accuity and cognative recognition of a visual cue happens at two hundredths of a second, you now have 3 hundredths of a second to correctly guess the punch target, and intercept the incoming punch.
Block 1 of 4 gates, 2 of 4 if you are lucky.

And only if you see a non telegraphing punch.

*Reaction Time Components...........*

When a person responds to something he hears, sees or feels, the total reaction time can be broken down into a sequence of components.

_1 Mental Processing Time_

This is the time it takes for the responder to perceive that a signal has occurred and to decide upon a response. For example, it is the time required for a driver to detect that a pedestrian is walking across the roadway directly ahead and to decide that the brakes should be applied. Mental processing time is itself a composite of four substages:




Sensation: the time it takes to detect the sensory input from an object. ("There is a shape in the road.") All things being equal, reaction time decreases with greater signal intensity (brightness, contrast, size, loudness, etc.), foveal viewing, and better visibility conditions. Best reaction times are also faster for auditory signals than for visual ones. This stage likely does not result in conscious awareness.


Perception/recognition: the time needed to recognize the meaning of the sensation. ("The shape is a person.") This requires the application of information from memory to interpret the sensory input. In some cases, "automatic response," this stage is very fast. In others, "controlled response," it may take considerable time. In general, novel input slows response, as does low signal probability, uncertainty (signal location, time or form), and surprise.


Situational awareness: the time needed to recognize and interpret the scene, extract its meaning and possibly extrapolate into the future. For example, once a driver recognizes a pedestrian in the road, and combines that percept with knowledge of his own speed and distance, then he realizes what is happening and what will happen next - the car is heading toward the pedestrian and will possibly result in a collision unless action is taken. As with perception/recognition, novelty slows this mental processing stage. Selection of the wrong memory schema (mental constructed models) result in misinterpretation.


Response selection and programming: the time necessary to decide which if any response to make and to mentally program the movement. ("I should steer left instead of braking.") Response selection slows under choice reaction time when there are multiple possible signals. Conversely, practice decreases the required time.
These four stages are usually lumped together as "perception time," a misnomer since response selection and some aspects of situational awareness are decision, not perception.

_2. Movement Time_

Once a response is selected, the responder must perform the required muscle movement. For example, it takes time to lift the foot off the accelerator pedal, move it laterally to the brake and then to depress the pedal.

Several factors affect movement times. In general, more complex movements require longer movement times while practice lowers movement times. 

Last but not least... the Yerkes-Dodson Law says that high emotional arousal, which may be created by an emergency, speeds gross motor movements but impairs fine detailed movements.

So... the first clue you just got hit was that you just got your bell rung.
Now if you cannot prevent an incoming blow you have to put something in the way. But moving hands up only opens lower gates...


My money is on the man who has thrown so many punches of one specific non telegraphic type.... they can only be estimated, over the guy who knows 5 to 10.


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## drop bear (Oct 23, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. But if will, speed, and skill are all comparable then size and strength and easily be the determining factors.



Mabye the smaller guy had less speed skill and will.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Depends on how fast and with how much power he can deliver. It is hard to not telegraph a kick.
> That being said... Bruce KOd a number of his student's with his non telegraphing punch.
> The one that clocked in around five hundredths of a second (0.05 second).
> 
> ...




I think it would have been polite to cite the person who wrote the above I have highlighted in blue. It comes from here

Visual Expert Human Factors: Driver Reaction Time

it's to do with motoring, there is also a warning at the start of the article.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 26, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Mabye the smaller guy had less speed skill and will.



That could very well have been the case.
There are some who make a case that G. Funakoshi was the most formally educated of the okinaiwan karate community and with a high level ability of the Japanese language he was sent to Japan to spread karate.

But that doesn't mean he was highly rated as a fighter in terms of ability. Far from it.


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> That could very well have been the case.
> There are some who make a case that G. Funakoshi was the most formally educated of the okinaiwan karate community and with a high level ability of the Japanese language he was sent to Japan to spread karate.
> 
> But that doesn't mean he was highly rated as a fighter in terms of ability. Far from it.



Yeah. In any event it is good to see them get in and have a go.


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