# MMA vs Bjj: The ground and pound experiment



## Hanzou (Jan 13, 2016)

MMA vs BJJ - Ground and Pound Experiment - Feat. 2 Special Guest

Featuring Gary Tonon and Gordan Ryan


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## mber (Jan 13, 2016)

Interesting video...I like the lead in.


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## FriedRice (Jan 13, 2016)

I remember when I first started to train MMA, I was already a Blue belt in BJJ and had 4 Muay Thai fights.....but training full MMA is quite different, even though I already had _the_, 2 major components of standup & ground, covered. The first time, getting GNP'ed by guys who I can beat to even whoop badly in standup only.....(BJJ only, it was about even)...but they had much more MMA training than me......I was quite surprised by how different and how quick it made me tap.  The first few GNP's, it was a panicky feeling.  This was medium power sparring with 7oz MMA gloves. I got used to it pretty quickly though due to my training.

A BJJ only guy, who's face has never really been tested with strikes (probably) like in that video, .....then that's going to be much, much worse. Then there's that soccer kick to the face....it's so easy to kick someone in the head like a soccer ball like this w/o any training, yet still cause massive damage. I train to defend this while my partner wears shinguards and kicking at like 30% power, but even with a double forearm block, it still hurts in a blunt force type, jarring pain.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 14, 2016)

I like the fact that they are experimenting with the idea but I don't think it is an honest evaluation. From my experience large gloves like what was used in the vid really puts the striker at a disadvantage. The hands become very slow and cumbersome. They are easy to controll for the grappler and the striker can not grab and controll at all.  The striker was having a hard time just moving around without the use of his hands.
A much better way to work the drill would have been no gloves ,using palm strikes.


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## drop bear (Jan 14, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> I like the fact that they are experimenting with the idea but I don't think it is an honest evaluation. From my experience large gloves like what was used in the vid really puts the striker at a disadvantage. The hands become very slow and cumbersome. They are easy to controll for the grappler and the striker can not grab and controll at all.  The striker was having a hard time just moving around without the use of his hands.
> A much better way to work the drill would have been no gloves ,using palm strikes.


I don't have 18 minutes of YouTube. So I flicked through.


As hard as they were hitting five ounce mma gloves would have done the trick. Or shute box gloves.







A lot of the entries that the striker used to go into guard would have been technically wrong from our point of view. For us hips forwards head up. To prevent the upkick.

Otherwise this is a drill we do. Guard half guard side control mount and back.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 14, 2016)

I don't think this really qualifies as much of an informative experiment. We already know that a BJJ practitioner can successfully defend himself from ground-n-pound in the guard. We also know that a BJJ practitioner can _fail_ to successfully defend himself from ground-n-pound in the guard. There have been many, many examples of both over the years. It comes down to the respective skills and physical and mental attributes of the fighters on top and bottom.

In this case the guys on bottom were very high level BJJ practitioners who include defense against G-n-P as part of their normal training*. The guys on top were much lower level MMA fighters. If it had been world-class MMA fighters on top and average BJJ blue belts on the bottom then the results would have been very different.

(With regard to the gloves, sometimes we do this exercise with boxing gloves, sometimes with MMA gloves, sometimes with bare hands delivering open hand slaps. It just depends on how you want the focus of the drill.)

What is interesting about this video is just watching how these particular high-level BJJ practitioners approached the bottom game. They're much more leg-lock oriented than what you might see from classic BJJ doctrine. Of course, Tonon is one of the best leg-lockers on the planet so it's not a huge surprise to see that from him. It _is_ informative to see how he sets up the leg-locks while protecting himself from strikes.

*(With the rise of BJJ practice focused primarily on grappling competitions, there are more and more BJJ practitioners who don't do this sort of training much at all.)


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## FriedRice (Jan 14, 2016)

Are these BJJ only people in the video, or are they MMA trained or even MMA fighters...who are just showing off their grappling to prove a biased point?  Big difference. BJJ only people rarely train and fight, ie. Muay Thai or full MMA, for a reason, they don't like getting hit in the face.

Just skimming through the video, it's clearly biased with the striker using 16oz Boxing gloves and can't grapple.  They don't have MMA 7oz, sparring gloves? Punches with MMA gloves will now have more precise, pinpoint accuracy, harder to block, etc.  But it's still just sparring for the striker, and he can't throw full power and possibly KO and/or break noses, bones, etc.  While the BJJ can go 100% power & intensity with his grappling = way, way unfair. 

These experiments/demos are usually always biased to give the BJJ unfair advantages.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 14, 2016)

FriedRice said:


> Are these BJJ only people in the video, or are they MMA trained or even MMA fighters...who are just showing off their grappling to prove a biased point?  Big difference. BJJ only people rarely train and fight, ie. Muay Thai or full MMA, for a reason, they don't like getting hit in the face.
> 
> Just skimming through the video, it's clearly biased with the striker using 16oz Boxing gloves and can't grapple.  They don't have MMA 7oz, sparring gloves? Punches with MMA gloves will now have more precise, pinpoint accuracy, harder to block, etc.  But it's still just sparring for the striker, and he can't throw full power and possibly KO and/or break noses, bones, etc.  While the BJJ can go 100% power & intensity with his grappling = way, way unfair.
> 
> These experiments/demos are usually always biased to give the BJJ unfair advantages.


The guy who made the video (and is also one of the guys working from guard) is Firas Zahabi. Zahabi is a very well respected MMA trainer and the head coach at the Tristar Gym. You might know him as the coach for George St. Pierre, among others. Zahabi is very well versed in stand-up striking as well as jiu-jitsu.

The guys on top were amateur MMA fighters who train out of Tristar. Competent, but nowhere near the level of the guys who were working from the bottom.

Regarding the gloves, honestly in this case it made no difference. I don't think any of the top guys landed a single head shot and only a few, awkward body shots. The skill difference was just that great.

I really don't think Zahabi was trying to suggest that a BJJ fighter on the bottom is magically invulnerable to G-n-P. Given that he was the coach for a UFC champion who made heavy use of G-n-P, that would be silly. I think he was just trying to show that BJJ can be used effectively from that position and to show some examples of how that works.


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## kuniggety (Jan 14, 2016)

I really agree with everything Tony has said. I think I saw one or two good/decent face shots which might've given a different result had they not been wearing 16 oz gloves and at the same time it might not have. I also thought it interesting the shear number of leg locks (I do remember at least one triangle though) that were used to finish the MMA fighters, given that leg locks weren't really part of old school BJJ. Heck, most competitions ban anything leg related other than the straight ankle lock until you're at least a brown belt. Even as a BJJ guy, I don't think the "experiment" demonstrated the effectiveness of BJJ very well. You have three world class BJJ BBs vs some MMA guys with no size advantage and not nearly the level of training of them. The video opened showing a BJJ losing to someone who was much larger than him and the BJJ guy did not demonstrate the level of skill of a high level BJJ BB.


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## Hanzou (Jan 14, 2016)

The more leg lock-centric style of Bjj is definitely different than the style of Bjj I'm used to (old school Gracie JJ via Relson and Rickson). I was pretty surprised to hear that that style came out of Renzo's academy. I always thought that style came from Eddie Bravo. 

I agree with some of the criticisms brought up about the video. I mean, the Bjj guys are elite level practitioners. I think the video would have been better served if they had a regular Bjj purple, brown, or black belt in there against some regular MMA guys. It's kind of unfair to put elite Bjj practitioners against amateur level MMA practitioners, because the vast majority of people practicing Bjj will never reach that level of proficiency, so I can kind of see the point that FriedRice was making. I mean hell, Tonon almost defeated Kron Gracie in grappling. Your standard Bjj practitioner going 2-3 times a week for an hour at a time is never going to be on that level.

That said, the general point is that Bjj practitioners definitely need to incorporate striking into their grappling. It's honestly not that hard to do once you learn the fundamentals. One of the things I did when I hit blue belt was start rolling from standing instead of my knees, and wearing mouth pieces and MMA gloves. That went a long way with making me comfortable with dealing with people punching and kicking you while you're trying to grapple with them.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 14, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I was pretty surprised to hear that that style came out of Renzo's academy. I always thought that style came from Eddie Bravo.


John Danaher (who teaches out of Renzo's academy) has done a lot to innovate and refine the modern leg-lock game. I believe he has some injuries which keep him from competing, but he's supposed to be a world-class technician.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 15, 2016)

My two cents: I haven't studied the video in detail but from a strikers perspective I did notice two things:

1) 5:58 - From being on your back against a standing opponent in a position of having your legs facing your opponent spinning 180 degrees so that your head is facing them is a bad idea.

2) 6:01 -  From that position with the right foot wrapped behind your opponent you are in a prime position for a kick with the left foot to your opponents knee. The opponents head is also at a convenient kicking height with the way he's leaning forward.


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## Buka (Jan 15, 2016)

I've spent a lot of time over the years defending against punches from my closed guard. And a good part of that is punching and elbowing the top man _from_ your closed guard. And it's not really difficult. But it is fun.

As for an open guard - I dunno', I never had much of one.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 15, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> 1) 5:58 - From being on your back against a standing opponent in a position of having your legs facing your opponent spinning 180 degrees so that your head is facing them is a bad idea.



Agreed. I think he was spinning to attack the leg and then overshot when his sparring partner stepped away. At least he recovered quickly.



RTKDCMB said:


> 2) 6:01 - From that position with the right foot wrapped behind your opponent you are in a prime position for a kick with the left foot to your opponents knee. The opponents head is also at a convenient kicking height with the way he's leaning forward.



In a real fight, the guys on the bottom would have been doing a lot more up-kicks. They may have been avoiding them in this drill for safety's sake, but I guarantee they were aware of every opportunity they had to kick the guy on top.


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## FriedRice (Jan 15, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The guy who made the video (and is also one of the guys working from guard) is Firas Zahabi. Zahabi is a very well respected MMA trainer and the head coach at the Tristar Gym. You might know him as the coach for George St. Pierre, among others. Zahabi is very well versed in stand-up striking as well as jiu-jitsu.
> 
> The guys on top were amateur MMA fighters who train out of Tristar. Competent, but nowhere near the level of the guys who were working from the bottom.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the info. 

I agree that a BJJ-only guy can use his BJJ vs. a Striker-only guy and vice versa, where the BJJ-only guy can get KO'ed by the Striker-only.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 15, 2016)

Love training my ground movement and control techniques against a guy striking with boxing gloves.  This is a really good drill once you have learned some of the basics!


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## drop bear (Jan 16, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In a real fight, the guys on the bottom would have been doing a lot more up-kicks. They may have been avoiding them in this drill for safety's sake, but I guarantee they were aware of every opportunity they had to kick the guy on top.



Who was leaning forwards. Which I am suprised at. Because it makes you an easy larget for up kicks.


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## Hanzou (Jan 17, 2016)

Buka said:


> I've spent a lot of time over the years defending against punches from my closed guard. And a good part of that is punching and elbowing the top man _from_ your closed guard. And it's not really difficult. But it is fun.
> 
> As for an open guard - I dunno', I never had much of one.









Closed guard for life bro!


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## Chris Parker (Jan 24, 2016)

So… what in all of this has anything to do with self defence? Considering the forum and all...


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## Hanzou (Jan 24, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> So… what in all of this has anything to do with self defence? Considering the forum and all...



In a self defense situation you can get knocked to the ground, or tackled to the ground. While there you will more than likely get punched in the face. These guys are showing how Bjj responds to that situation.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 25, 2016)

Yeah… no, they weren't. That's the thing.


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## O'Malley (Jan 25, 2016)

Where are the soccer kicks? That should be your first concern if you ever get on the ground in a street fight.


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## Hanzou (Jan 25, 2016)

Chris Parker said:


> Yeah… no, they weren't. That's the thing.



Okay Chris. 



O'Malley said:


> Where are the soccer kicks? That should be your first concern if you ever get on the ground in a street fight.



Not if the guy lands on top of you. When they're on top of you your first concern is getting punched or elbowed in the head.

Avoiding getting kicked on the ground is comparatively easier than getting out from under someone on top of you.


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## drop bear (Jan 25, 2016)

O'Malley said:


> Where are the soccer kicks? That should be your first concern if you ever get on the ground in a street fight.



There were no up kicks from the guy on the ground either. It is what it is. 

There is defences to being kicked while in guard there are tactics to doing it and not getting dragged down and subbed.

They are extra layers you could add on to that concept.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 26, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> In a self defense situation you can get knocked to the ground, or tackled to the ground. While there you will more than likely get punched in the face. These guys are showing how Bjj responds to that situation.


The first BJJ guy in the video did not respond to it very well. If you cannot use BJJ to stop a barely trained  thug on the ground from punching you then how do you expect to do it when your life depends on it?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 26, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> The first BJJ guy in the video did not respond to it very well. If you cannot use BJJ to stop a barely trained  thug on the ground from punching you then how do you expect to do it when your life depends on it?


I don't know anything about the guy being beat in the opening video. Firas says he's a BJJ practitioner, so maybe he has knowledge of the circumstances behind the video.

What I do know is that once he loses the back and ends up in bottom of guard, he doesn't even _attempt_ any of the proper behaviors for defending against strikes on the bottom. That indicates that either a) he's not very experienced or b) he trains at a school that only addresses completion grappling and doesn't cover fighting against a striker* or c) both.

*(Such schools are unfortunately too common these days in my opinion.)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 26, 2016)

Or Tony after the guy got out of the rear naked choke and punched him once he was fuzzy and couldn't apply standard BJJ ground and pound defenses?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 26, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Or Tony after the guy got out of the rear naked choke and punched him once he was fuzzy and couldn't apply standard BJJ ground and pound defenses?


Possibly, but a) I didn't see any proper attempts to stop the first punch, b) he may have been fuzzy but he wasn't out. He was reacting but not in a useful way. c) If all your defenses fall apart after eating one punch, then you really haven't internalized those defenses yet. It would be one thing if his defenses just got sloppy after taking a hit, but his defenses were non-existent.


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know anything about the guy being beat in the opening video. Firas says he's a BJJ practitioner, so maybe he has knowledge of the circumstances behind the video.
> 
> What I do know is that once he loses the back and ends up in bottom of guard, he doesn't even _attempt_ any of the proper behaviors for defending against strikes on the bottom. That indicates that either a) he's not very experienced or b) he trains at a school that only addresses completion grappling and doesn't cover fighting against a striker* or c) both.
> 
> *(Such schools are unfortunately too common these days in my opinion.)



It can be a tough position to fight from.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 26, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It can be a tough position to fight from.


Absolutely. All other factors being even, the guy on top has an advantage. Even if the guy on bottom was using proper technique, he could still lose. However when he doesn't even _try_ to use proper technique to defend himself, it makes me think that either he never learned how to defend against strikes when on the bottom or else he hasn't spent enough time practicing those defenses.


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## Hanzou (Jan 26, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> The first BJJ guy in the video did not respond to it very well. If you cannot use BJJ to stop a barely trained  thug on the ground from punching you then how do you expect to do it when your life depends on it?



Since we have numerous examples of Bjj exponents successfully defending themselves from the ground and pound, it's clear that if you fail it's because you lacked the proper training, or you didn't train hard enough.

That said, I'm always open to hear about TKD's response to a similar situation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 26, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Possibly, but a) I didn't see any proper attempts to stop the first punch, b) he may have been fuzzy but he wasn't out. He was reacting but not in a useful way. c) If all your defenses fall apart after eating one punch, then you really haven't internalized those defenses yet. It would be one thing if his defenses just got sloppy after taking a hit, but his defenses were non-existent.



Agreed, however maybe he just has never been punched in the face.  Everyone has a plan until then!   In my opinion he just didn't look very skilled so maybe he hasn't internalized his BJJ training yet or maybe he just has never been punched in the face.  We will never know for sure!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 26, 2016)

One thing we do know for sure if you are on your back and a *much bigger* person with better attributes and a killer mindset is on top in your guard it probably will suck to be you!  You may come out of it as the victor/survivor or not but it probably is going to suck during the process!  When I look at that video clip the top guy was simply stronger, had better attributes and a kick *** mentality.  That can go a long way in any confrontation!


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## Hanzou (Jan 26, 2016)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> One thing we do know for sure if you are on your back and a *much bigger* person with better attributes and a killer mindset is on top in your guard it probably will suck to be you!  You may come out of it as the victor/survivor or not but it probably is going to suck during the process!  When I look at that video clip the top guy was simply stronger, had better attributes and a kick *** mentality.  That can go a long way in any confrontation!



My instructors made it pretty clear that no matter how good your guard is, you're going to get punched/hit in the face. Despite that, being in guard is far better than being under the mount.


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## drop bear (Jan 26, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> My instructors made it pretty clear that no matter how good your guard is, you're going to get punched/hit in the face. Despite that, being in guard is far better than being under the mount.



Not the only two choices.

Even the rear naked was risky because it can get turned around. We don't jump off top side unless we are bloody sure we are going to win the fight.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 27, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> That said, I'm always open to hear about TKD's response to a similar situation.


Well when someone tried to get on top of me I kicked him in the face three times, got to one knee uppercutted him in the ribs and groin and then kneed him in the ribs on the way up from the half kneeling position.


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## Hanzou (Jan 27, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Well when someone tried to get on top of me I kicked him in the face three times, got to one knee uppercutted him in the ribs and groin and then kneed him in the ribs on the way up from the half kneeling position.




Ah, performing an uppercut from kneeling position is an ancient technique. Here's one of the masters performing it;





I'm more partial to the flame version myself... 

In all seriousness, I asked what TKD's answer for the ground and pound was, not what you (supposedly) did.


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## Buka (Jan 27, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> My instructors made it pretty clear that no matter how good your guard is, you're going to get punched/hit in the face.



Yes. That's why it's called a fight.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 27, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> Ah, performing an uppercut from kneeling position is an ancient technique. Here's one of the masters performing it;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're kidding right? And that's a jumping uppercut.

Last time I checked, I have provided more evidence of my martial arts training than  you have of yours.


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## Hanzou (Jan 27, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> You're kidding right? And that's a jumping uppercut.



Starting from kneeling position, and hitting the groin, ribs, and head. 



> Last time I checked, I have provided more evidence of my martial arts training than  you have of yours.



You posted people in your dojang sparring each other. I've also posted videos of my peers sparring, and my former instructor doing instructional vids. 

In any case, this discussion is about the ground and pound. Kind of hard to kick someone in the face three times and uppercut them in the nuts while they're on top of you.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 27, 2016)

Stephen Kesting has a nice write-up with some analysis of the video.


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## drop bear (Jan 27, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Stephen Kesting has a nice write-up with some analysis of the video.



Yeah sort of mentioned there. And I was going to suggest it when you mentioned in the street fight for that bjj guy was not countering strikes.

If the other guy is better it appears like you are not defending properly.

I have been caught flailing when doing my on GNP experiment.


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## Hanzou (Jan 27, 2016)

That write up from Kesting was pretty good.


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## Chester Wright (Jan 27, 2016)

My team and I always train both. Training MMA really tightens up your Jiu Jitsu game, you can't afford to leave a lot of space while grappling in MMA otherwise your eating elbows.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 28, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> You posted people in your dojang sparring each other. I've also posted videos of my peers sparring, and my former instructor doing instructional vids.



And how do we know they are your peers and that is your former instructor? Because you say so? I have an entire gallery of me doing stuff, you have nothing of you whatsoever.



Hanzou said:


> Kind of hard to kick someone in the face three times and uppercut them in the nuts while they're on top of you.



He tried to get on top of me from some ground and pound, the kicks prevented that. I only got to one knee and one foot (half kneeling position) before he closed in on me, then I gave him the two uppercuts and then the knee as I stood up fully.


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