# Lets Talk Pao Chui



## Steel Tiger (Mar 26, 2008)

This is not a part of my art but I have always been fascinated with it.  Its name alone conjures vivid images.

San Huang Pao Chui (Three Emperor Cannon Punch) supposedly developed by the Three August Ones - Fuxi, Shennong, and Gonggong.

It is represented in many styles, something which has been attributed to its early association with Shaolin.  It was, in fact, one of the earliest complete systems to be added to the Shaolin curriculum.  so the monks must have appreciated its effectiveness almost immediately.

Something that I find very interesting is that the system may have been taught to a Shaolin monk by someone from Emei Shan.

Its old.  The monk Tanzong gave a demonstration of Pao Chui at a festival organised by the Emperor Gaozu (AD566 - 635).  Therefore the system had to be part of the Shaolin curriculum well before then, unless Tanzong was the person who introduced the system to the monastery.


First, San Huang Pao Chui
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v1ai-6J--M&NR=1

Second, Shaolin Pao Chui (yes, it does appear that he is on a golf course)




 
Third, Chen Taiji Pao Chui




 
Fourth, Bagua Pao Chui




 
Fifth, a Wushu version




 
I think these videos demonstrate some of the evolution of the Pao Chui system and the diversity that has arisen.  But through it all, you can see the effectiveness of the system for producing fa jin.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 26, 2008)

And then in Tibetan White Crane and the related arts such as Hop Gar, we have a puch that we call Pau Chui.  It can be very powerful

When I saw the title of your thread, I thought that might be the topic of discussion.  Seems I was mistaken...


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 26, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> And then in Tibetan White Crane and the related arts such as Hop Gar, we have a puch that we call Pau Chui. It can be very powerful
> 
> When I saw the title of your thread, I thought that might be the topic of discussion. Seems I was mistaken...


 
Pao Chui and Pau Chui seem way too close to me to not be the same thing.  Is this punch a fa jin technique?  Can you describe it?


When you mentioned Tibetan White Crane I thought I would look into to it a bit and found that the monk Adatuo, to whom the Lion's Roar sytem is attributed also learned a wrestling style called Dinah.  Sounds an awful lot like qinna to me.

Some thing I am coming to consider is that the martial arts we know now as Chinese may have developed from systems from the western mountains, like Emei and Wudong.  That's very close to Tibet.  There is no reason martial influences could not have spread west as well as east.

Then, of course, there is the fact that the Tibetan White Crane style relocated to southern China.  If it was developed as early as the Ming dynasty then there is plenty of time for mixing and fusing.  Let's face it, almost every CMA style around today has something from some other style in it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 27, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Pao Chui and Pau Chui seem way too close to me to not be the same thing. Is this punch a fa jin technique? Can you describe it?
> 
> 
> When you mentioned Tibetan White Crane I thought I would look into to it a bit and found that the monk Adatuo, to whom the Lion's Roar sytem is attributed also learned a wrestling style called Dinah. Sounds an awful lot like qinna to me.
> ...


 

well, the punch that we call pau/pao chui is one of the main hand strikes that we use.  It is also found in variants in systems like Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar.

Basically, it is thrown using a full-body pivot.  As the pivot happens, your fist rises straight up out in front of you, keeping your full arm straight.  You strike with the top/thumb side of your fist, but not actually striking with the thumb.  Strike with the platform around the side of the first knuckle of the first finger.  The fist swings all the way up, so you end with the arm straight up in the air, your bicep is by your ear.  Typically, you land the strike under the chin, and just keep on going.  It snaps his head up and back, and could seriously whiplash the neck.

While the strike is swinging up, the other hand is swinging back.  This adds to the full body pivot, and increases the forward swinging momentum for the strike.  Your torso pivots, so that when you are impacting with the strike, your torso is turned sideways to the opponent.

In Hung Gar, I've seen it done but striking with a rising back fist.  Also, they seem to stop the strike at about head level on the opponent, while we swing all the way thru until the arm is straight up in the air.

So in TWC, it is just the one punch, not a complete form or system like you listed in the Youtube clips.

But your other comments seem to me to be on target as well.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

Part of the reason I use to train Chen was I wanted to learn Chen Pao Chui. Sadly I never got the chance to.

Chen Zhenglei
Chen Taijiquan - Laojia Er Lu (Pao Chui)

Sorry, I just like Chen Zhenglei's form better than Jesse Tsao


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 27, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> well, the punch that we call pau/pao chui is one of the main hand strikes that we use. It is also found in variants in systems like Choy Lay Fut and Hung Gar.
> 
> Basically, it is thrown using a full-body pivot. As the pivot happens, your fist rises straight up out in front of you, keeping your full arm straight. You strike with the top/thumb side of your fist, but not actually striking with the thumb. Strike with the platform around the side of the first knuckle of the first finger. The fist swings all the way up, so you end with the arm straight up in the air, your bicep is by your ear. Typically, you land the strike under the chin, and just keep on going. It snaps his head up and back, and could seriously whiplash the neck.
> 
> ...


 
What you describe is represented in the San Huang Pao Chui and Shaolin sets I think.




Xue Sheng said:


> Part of the reason I use to train Chen was I wanted to learn Chen Pao Chui. Sadly I never got the chance to.
> 
> Chen Zhenglei
> Chen Taijiquan - Laojia Er Lu (Pao Chui)
> ...


 
Yeah, I think you're right.  Definitely better.


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 27, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> What you describe is represented in the San Huang Pao Chui and Shaolin sets I think.


 
Yeah, it is a tech that is found in a number of places.  I find that different arts have their own sort of variation on the tech, it's often not identical.  I've seen it in Shaolin Lohan as well, and I noticed a couple of them in the fight scene in Drunken Master II, when Jackie fights the fishmonger in the market.  The fishmonger threw a couple pau chuis in the mix, while Jackie kept backing up and evading and looking for an excuse to not fight. I believe the fishmonger was doing choy lay fut.

I think perhaps in TWC, maybe we have the most extreme and elongated version of the technique.  That's how we practice it as a base technique.  Of course once you've developed the very long movements, you can shorten it up and make it less open, and still generate your power.

It's even in Tracy kenpo, in a shortened version.  It's clearly there in a couple of the Chinese forms that have been adopted by Tracys kenpo.  These forms have been sort of "kenpoized", so they arent' quite the same as their original Chinese versions, we've got a version of Tam Tui, for example, and I also know a version of Tam Tui that I learned from my White Crane sifu.  They are clearly the same form, but definitely different.  At any rate, there is a shortened version of the pau chui in Tracys Tam Tui.

Old Chen Taiji has another short form called: sanshou pau chui.  I forget exactly how it translates, it's not the same meaning as sanshou in the sense of full contact fighting.  But according to my sifu, there were about 7 or so old forms in the Chen system that were distilled down into the current standardized Chen #1, and Chen #2 (Pau Chui) of modern Chen taiji.  I've not learned either of these two forms, but I did learn the old sanshou pau chui.

So my question is: where does the name come from, to make it applied to various different forms from different arts, as well as a specific punching technique, and, it sounds like, an actual style?  What's the connection, if there is one, or is it a case of the same name being independently applied to different things?


----------

