# $$$Black Belt/Poom test$$$



## msmitht (Oct 30, 2010)

How much does your school charge? My former GM, rest his soul, used to charge 500 per belt test with the KKW cert included. Last weekend there was some talk at a tourney (in CA) about the ridiculous prices some charge. Here are a few that stood out :
1. A man has 3 sons who are all ready for their poom exam. cost :$1500 each...the week b4 Christmas!
2. A woman who is a black belt candidate (that test was 500, no cert) said she would have to pay $1000 for her "Poom"(she was around 40)test then $1500 for her Dan test next summer. 
3. 2 3rd Dan instructors told me that they will be testing in Jan for their 4th Dan. They will pay $2500 each and have been 3rd dan for 5 years each!
Noticing a pattern here? Why are they charging so much? I know that some have high rent but tuition should cover that. I have a crazy idea. Lets try charging a fair price. I took my 5th Dan exam in Korea for $250 us. plus cost of travel. Total was around $1590. Difference = they don't care who you are or if you pass! If you pay someone 1500 they are not going to fail you. What is the point of testing under those circumstances? Why not just cut the check and have a nice dinner with your Sa Bum Nim while he discusses his new Mercedes?
I personally charge 250 for 1st poom/dan and add 100 per level. After 3rd Dan they must go to Korea. KKW fees are cheap. I will not list them here but both 1st and 2nd are under $100 us.


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## dortiz (Oct 30, 2010)

I am still disgusted by this practice. If you pay a monthly fee or a contract fee you are paying the school. Its bull crap for testing to be some additional revenue pot of gold. 
Stripes or stars, then the actual ranks, its just out of hand. A test fee should cover the cost and yes maybe have some extra to make sure the school is not losing money but that should be $20-$30 at tops. 
Belt $25 (embroidery $15) Total $40
Nice Uniform $100 (very generous)
KKW Cert (1st Dan is $70)   YUP!!
Plaque $75 (generous)
Testing room, food etc $100

Worst case $385 tops and the next Dans will be slightly more on the KKW fee but not need a BBelt uniform so it should not change much.
Kukkiwon charges $70 for 1st dan, $90 for 2nd dan, $120 for 3rd dan, $150 for 4th dan, $300 for 5th dan, $350 for 6th dan, and $450 for 7th dan

Its the information age so if it can be googled I would suggest putting out there so no to be burned later.


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## troubleenuf (Oct 30, 2010)

This is one reason why my "old" organization has closed invitation only tournaments.  That way the people in the organization never have contact with people who know whats going on.  They charge $5000 for a 4th Dan (although I just talked with one of them that paid over $10,000).  If they promote someone from 2nd poom when he/she turns 15 they promote them to 3rd Dan,,, but of course they make them pay the fees for 1st Dan, 2nd dan and 3rd Dan.  They control all the information that their students have so they dont find out that 1st Dan Kukkiwon only cost $75.  Almost like a cult in some respects. 



msmitht said:


> How much does your school charge? My former GM, rest his soul, used to charge 500 per belt test with the KKW cert included. Last weekend there was some talk at a tourney (in CA) about the ridiculous prices some charge. Here are a few that stood out :
> 1. A man has 3 sons who are all ready for their poom exam. cost :$1500 each...the week b4 Christmas!
> 2. A woman who is a black belt candidate (that test was 500, no cert) said she would have to pay $1000 for her "Poom"(she was around 40)test then $1500 for her Dan test next summer.
> 3. 2 3rd Dan instructors told me that they will be testing in Jan for their 4th Dan. They will pay $2500 each and have been 3rd dan for 5 years each!
> ...


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## granfire (Oct 30, 2010)

well, I can see a higher fee when you have to rent a facility and pay a bunch of judges to come and feed them for the day.

However...those fees are HIGH!

(and I thought the 150 the Senior master in our area was charging his students for any given BB test was steep) 

No KKW certificate though....

(but with prices that high, a 2 dollar color print certificate should be a given, heck, even framed!)


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## Disco (Oct 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> How much does your school charge?
> 
> I personally charge 250 for 1st poom/dan and add 100 per level. After 3rd Dan they must go to Korea. KKW fees are cheap. I will not list them here but both 1st and 2nd are under $100 us.



I'm sorry, but even your prices are too high. $70 Kukkiwon vs $250, that's a 350% markup. I realize there's overhead, but not that much. Also, why mandate that your students go to Korea to test? To me that's an unwarranted cost for a piece of paper.   

Bottom line to all this nonsense is GREED. There's the old Roman saying, "Caveat Emptor" - Buyer beware!......Seems as though there's a lot of folks with plenty of money and not enough brains......


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## dortiz (Oct 30, 2010)

"well, I can see a higher fee when you have to rent a facility and pay a bunch of judges to come and feed them for the day."

Here is thissue. That should be clear then up front. Oh here is the cost to train and additionally we spend some money on this special day and we do charge enough to cover.
Or, we charge you enough to pay bills, make some money and cover events that should be planned for in the operational cost.

I get when a YMCA type club has to cover all the extra expenses since they dont take in profits to begin with but if you charge for the program how can you charge extra for the diploma? And again if you do make sure you tell folks very clearly up front.


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## Cirdan (Oct 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> 1. A man has 3 sons who are all ready for their poom exam. cost :$1500 each...the week b4 Christmas!
> 2. A woman who is a black belt candidate (that test was 500, no cert) said she would have to pay $1000 for her "Poom"(she was around 40)test then $1500 for her Dan test next summer.
> 3. 2 3rd Dan instructors told me that they will be testing in Jan for their 4th Dan. They will pay $2500 each and have been 3rd dan for 5 years each!


 
:lfao:

"There are only two infinite things; the universe and stupidity. I am not sure about the first."


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## mango.man (Oct 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> I personally charge 250 for 1st poom/dan and add 100 per level. After 3rd Dan they must go to Korea. KKW fees are cheap.* I will not list them here but both 1st and 2nd are under $100 us*.



I am just curious, why won't you list them here?  I have never seen an official price sheet from KKW.  I have seen prices listed on a few websites from time to time, but I don't know how up to date or accurate they are.

If you won't list the official cost that KKW charges for each poom/dan rank, will anyone?


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## Disco (Oct 30, 2010)

"If you won't list the official cost that KKW charges for each poom/dan rank, will anyone?"



dortiz said:


> Kukkiwon charges $70 for 1st dan, $90 for 2nd dan, $120 for 3rd dan, $150 for 4th dan, $300 for 5th dan, $350 for 6th dan, and $450 for 7th dan


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## Archtkd (Oct 30, 2010)

I was tested by a 7-person panel headed by a 9th Dan GM and paid $180 for my KKW 4th Dan, three years ago. The GM, who I won't name -- is Korean-American --and hated by many of his compatriots because he tends to be fair and opens doors for many people who've been locked out by Taekwondo swindlers.

Here's one of the reasons you are seeing the crazy test prices. Many dojang owners -- especially those who do long contracts or sell lifelong memberships -- are using tests for cashflow. That, I assume, is because they quickly sell those contracts, spend the money, and then have to scrounge for new sources of regular income. It could be the same reason that you are seeing a growth of ridiculous tournaments where adults are being charged $70 to participate in one round 1-minute sparring competitions.


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## mango.man (Oct 30, 2010)

Disco said:


> Kukkiwon charges $70 for 1st dan, $90 for 2nd dan, $120 for 3rd dan, $150 for 4th dan, $300 for 5th dan, $350 for 6th dan, and $450 for 7th dan



Are those listed on their website somewhere?


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## Archtkd (Oct 30, 2010)

msmitht said:


> Here are a few that stood out :
> 1. A man has 3 sons who are all ready for their poom exam. cost :$1500 each...the week b4 Christmas!
> 2. A woman who is a black belt candidate (that test was 500, no cert) said she would have to pay $1000 for her "Poom"(she was around 40)test then $1500 for her Dan test next summer.
> 3. 2 3rd Dan instructors told me that they will be testing in Jan for their 4th Dan. They will pay $2500 each and have been 3rd dan for 5 years each!.


 
God Bless America! If people are coughing up this sums the recession is gone. The economists where terribly wrong again. There really was no recession -- especially in California. Another terrible thought: Maybe many of us are just very lousy business people.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 30, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> I was tested by a 7-person panel headed by a 9th Dan GM and paid $180 for my KKW 4th Dan, three years ago. The GM, who I won't name -- is Korean-American --and hated by many of his compatriots because he tends to be fair and opens doors for many people who've been locked out by Taekwondo swindlers.
> 
> Here's one of the reasons you are seeing the crazy test prices. Many dojang owners -- especially those who do long contracts or sell lifelong memberships -- are using tests for cashflow. That, I assume, is because they quickly sell those contracts, spend the money, and then have to scrounge for new sources of regular income. It could be the same reason that you are seeing a growth of ridiculous tournaments where adults are being charged $70 to participate in one round 1-minute sparring competitions.




was this WTF or IFT style forms?  you can PM if you would rather not post for the world to see


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## igillman (Oct 30, 2010)

That is what put me off our dojang and why I did not renew our contract when it ran out. In our classes we all did the same thing regardless of belt level. It cost $50 per test and we had stripes as well as belts. A red/black belt test was $500 and a black belt cost $1000 or $1500 (I could not get a straight answer out of anybody). I took a look around me and saw that the upper belts were no better than me anyway. I worked out that I could stay at green belt and do exactly the same things that I would if I was advancing through the ranks. I had no desire to pay over $1000 for a belt of any colour.


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## Balrog (Oct 30, 2010)

Our colored belt testings are $60 each for the first two family members, then $15 for subsequent members.

Black Belt tests are $100 x your current degree.


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## granfire (Oct 30, 2010)

Balrog said:


> Black Belt tests are $100 x your current degree.



Not trying to be nasty, but what makes the 2nd or 3rd degree more special? I mean 100, 200, 300 dollars more special?


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 30, 2010)

We pay $50 per month to train and $40 to grade. Black belt grading is $100.


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## msmitht (Oct 30, 2010)

Disco said:


> I'm sorry, but even your prices are too high. $70 Kukkiwon vs $250, that's a 350% markup. I realize there's overhead, but not that much. Also, why mandate that your students go to Korea to test? To me that's an unwarranted cost for a piece of paper.
> 
> Bottom line to all this nonsense is GREED. There's the old Roman saying, "Caveat Emptor" - Buyer beware!......Seems as though there's a lot of folks with plenty of money and not enough brains......[/QUOTE
> 70 for the cert, 30 for a nice embroidered belt, 50 for a bb uniform(adidas), 15 for breaking materials and 30 for dinner at korean restaurant after. The rest is profit.
> I have sent 3 to korea to test for 4th dan. They said the experience was worth it.


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## granfire (Oct 30, 2010)

you buy them a uniform?

Shocking...

But that explains the fee then (and the dinner is a nice touch)


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## Disco (Oct 31, 2010)

"I have sent 3 to korea to test for 4th dan. They said the experience was worth it."

In my mind, it's only worth it if you can afford it and not a lot of folks can afford it or even have the time to take off to do it. I'll give you the testing fee, only because you offered extras, but IMO forcing a Korean trip is way over the top. It's your school and your students though, so they know what their in for. :asian:


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 31, 2010)

Uniform, cert, and dinner?  I now feel like I'm ripping off students just buying them a plain belt.  But I don't get paid and they don't pay testing fees or monthly fees if they are YMCA members, so I guess it's not so bad.


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## dancingalone (Oct 31, 2010)

It's a cool thing to take a 'working' vacation to Korea if one can afford it.  I would hope allowances are made for candidates who can't however.


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## Balrog (Oct 31, 2010)

granfire said:


> Not trying to be nasty, but what makes the 2nd or 3rd degree more special? I mean 100, 200, 300 dollars more special?


Achievement of a goal and establishing new goals.

The Black Belt testing fees are set by the association.  The student is required to do three midterm tests prior to testing for rank and the midterm testing fees are credited toward the actual testing fee.  In effect, they spread the cost out over time.


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 31, 2010)

granfire said:


> Not trying to be nasty, but what makes the 2nd or 3rd degree more special? I mean 100, 200, 300 dollars more special?


I dont agree with it, but I believe their logic is that by 5th dan (for instance) you have not graded for 5 years, so by looking at it as a yearly thing they would feel you owe more. At my club you train for free once 4th dan and above so the club makes no money out of anyone over 4th dan except when they pay their grading fees, so no one really cares about paying extra for the higher dan gradings.


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## granfire (Oct 31, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont agree with it, but I believe their logic is that by 5th dan (for instance) you have not graded for 5 years, so by looking at it as a yearly thing they would feel you owe more. At my club you train for free once 4th dan and above so the club makes no money out of anyone over 4th dan except when they pay their grading fees, so no one really cares about paying extra for the higher dan gradings.




Well, if you do train for free, then putting down some coin for the grading isn't bad.

The organization I trained under had 2 prices for tests, varying a bit from school to school, but color belts had one fee, BBs another. not high, but no difference between 1st to 3rd. Never got higher, 4th had to test at a national event, in front of all the big wigs...
But all through that you paid your membership.
But no uniform
no dinner
no KKW certificate
no free rides.
(also, most BBs ended up in the instructor program...no free rides there, either)


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 1, 2010)

granfire said:


> Well, if you do train for free, then putting down some coin for the grading isn't bad.
> 
> The organization I trained under had 2 prices for tests, varying a bit from school to school, but color belts had one fee, BBs another. not high, but no difference between 1st to 3rd. Never got higher, 4th had to test at a national event, in front of all the big wigs...
> But all through that you paid your membership.
> ...


Ive never understood a "club membership fee" and then you pay training fees on top of that. I would have thought that the training fees are membership. We just pay $50 a month to train and thats it, plus when you join you get a free uniform inclusive in the $50 per month. We do pay to attend black belt class though if we choose to go.


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## granfire (Nov 1, 2010)

hmm was late when I wrote that. 
to clarify: 
Monthly fee to be a member of the school. I don't begrudge it the instructors, they have to pay rent or Mortgage on the facilities.
There is a yearly membership fee for the organization, it's not very high a couple of bucks a month, to 'keep records'


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## terryl965 (Nov 1, 2010)

People will pay so society has made a point to let these so call instructor fleece the flock so be it, nobody cares when society lets gas goes up by 1000 percent a week but once again if people allow it they will do it.


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## granfire (Nov 1, 2010)

Yeah, but people will also knock the under priced services
or complain regardless of price.


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## terryl965 (Nov 1, 2010)

granfire said:


> Yeah, but people will also knock the under priced services
> or complain regardless of price.


 
This is so true, when my prices was only $50.00 a month full time people would say I cannot be as good as so and so because they charge more.


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## d1jinx (Nov 1, 2010)

you know, "fleecing the flock" is a very bad thing.  taking advantage and Charging rediculously high prices for testing is crooked and makes us all look bad...  

However, to everyone who thinks a testing fee should only be $70 cause thats all KKW charges, *you live in a fairy tale*.  I suppose the instructors should teach for free and devote their life to babysitting you and your kids for free because you think its the Moral thing to Teach for free.

New flash, this isn't a 17th century civilization where everything is free cause you traded your chicken for a goat.  You dont get to drop your kids off at the temple for the munks to train for free cause its what they do.

A school owner and instructor has devoted thier life (*hopefully*) to the art.  they are the expert (*hopefully*) at what they do.  When you choose to go to them, you are being trained by them.  It is a privilage you have chosen to do and will choose if WHAT THEY CHARGE is reasonable to YOU.

Testing fees that have be determined by the instructor are non-negotiable.  THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TRAINING YOU< THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE PROMOTING YOU.  at the end of the day, it is their NAME that you carry when asked who promoted you.  They have the right to charge what they want based on any means they used to determine that price.  If you dont like it... find another school.

*msmitht *your prices are reasonable. 
I would not have explained the breakdown of it to anyone.  You charge what you have determined to be a fair amount and at the end of the day, they have found it to be fair as well.

Bottom line, this luxury that we choose to do, is still a business that has to pay the bills.  Your value is what you put into it and your reputation is at risk.


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## d1jinx (Nov 1, 2010)

question?

why come no one ever called Bruce Lee a crook?

Did you see his fees?  And those were before he made it big...

So why was it ok for him to charge so much?  :idunno:

I never heard anyone who studied under him complain that he should teach for free.

oh... maybe its because they found value in what he had to offer. :duh:


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## Gorilla (Nov 1, 2010)

I will pay what I feel a Master/Trainer/Coach is worth to me!!!  If he/she charges more that I think they are worth then it is my choice to make after discussing with the Master.  It is important that these discussions are done with great discretion! If it cannot be worked out then you should move on to a different place and there should be no hard feelings on either side.

Unfortunately these situations rarely end well as egos and feelings get involved.  When money is involved things get magnified.

Masters charge what you believe your services to be worth!  Your students will either agree and pay or they will go to another provider.

I the end it always boils down to a business transaction!  If you think that its is worth it!  Pay it!  If not move on!!!!


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## IcemanSK (Nov 1, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> you know, "fleecing the flock" is a very bad thing. taking advantage and Charging rediculously high prices for testing is crooked and makes us all look bad...
> 
> However, to everyone who thinks a testing fee should only be $70 cause thats all KKW charges, *you live in a fairy tale*. I suppose the instructors should teach for free and devote their life to babysitting you and your kids for free because you think its the Moral thing to Teach for free.
> 
> ...


 
I have to agree with this assessment. One of the issues that so many knowing what a KKW Dan costs is the speculation that folks are being charged too much if they're not being charged THAT amount.

Yes, there are unscrupulous folks in MA who charge outrageous fees. But there are physical training gyms in every town who charge much more than most TKD schools do. (One in my town charges $3000 a year for group classes!) There is not this kind of backlash against them for their prices. They say "yep, he bought a new BMW. He can afford it, cuz people pay him well."

Instructors don't take a vow of poverty. Students (and parents) value what costs them something. If it was free of charge, it would be of little value to them.


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## dortiz (Nov 1, 2010)

I never heard anyone who studied under him complain that he should teach for free.

oh... maybe its because they found value in what he had to offer


Not sure we are arguing the same point. I am VERY comfortable with a top teacher charging top dollar. Heck $500 a month if thats what it costs to train with the best. I just feel that grading is not an upfront fee in many schools and another way to spring fees out of the masses. 
Many folks I have talked to did not expect the many tests fees and increasing amounts. You pay a huge amount to train and then the school is charging a ridiculous amount to test that in many cases was not clear up front.
Harvards not cheap and folks gladly pay for it. If at the end they told you its another 50k to graduate and actually get the diploma they said you had earned,that would be another discussion or in this case the one we are having.


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## d1jinx (Nov 1, 2010)

dortiz said:


> Not sure we are arguing the same point. I am VERY comfortable with a top teacher charging top dollar. Heck $500 a month if thats what it costs to train with the best. I just feel that grading is not an upfront fee in many schools and another way to spring fees out of the masses.
> Many folks I have talked to did not expect the many tests fees and increasing amounts. You pay a huge amount to train and then the school is charging a ridiculous amount to test that in many cases was not clear up front.
> Harvards not cheap and folks gladly pay for it. If at the end they told you its another 50k to graduate and actually get the diploma they said you had earned,that would be another discussion or in this case the one we are having.


 
That is a problem that should not exist. When entering a school, you *SHOULD* know the fees upfront. And I agree with you that it is unfair when schools charge unknown fees.

But to say this, doesnt mean that because you pay to train dont mean you should not have to pay to be promoted.

Dont get me wrong, I think we are on the same page. I believe that anyone walking in the door and signing up *SHOULD NOT BE DECIEVED*. everything should be up front. If and when you find out and are not happy.... *WALK*.

But to say that "I pay $XX monthly so testing should be free" is absurd.


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## Gorilla (Nov 1, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> question?
> 
> why come no one ever called Bruce Lee a crook?
> 
> ...



Bruce Lee charged what his target market would allow.  The amount he charged severely limited the size of his potential customers.  He trained the super rich Athletes and Movie Stars of the time!!!  Bruce charged what his market would allow and his talent would attract!!!! It is basic supply and demand!!!

Bruce did not get rich training people!  He got rich making movies!


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## granfire (Nov 1, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Bruce Lee charged what his target market would allow.  The amount he charged severely limited the size of his potential customers.  He trained the super rich Athletes and Movie Stars of the time!!!  Bruce charged what his market would allow and his talent would attract!!!! It is basic supply and demand!!!
> 
> Bruce did not get rich training people!  He got rich making movies!



But before he got rich making movies he trained college students...
I do believe his wife was a former student of his...


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## msmitht (Nov 1, 2010)

Ty all for you posts, even if it did get a little off track. I was venting a little. Some of the prices that people charge is ridiculous.Maybe if my school was bigger I would need to charge more. I don't think much more though. My gm told me that higher ranking black belts charge more because they feel entitled. At the Kukkiwon you pay a fair price, less cost of travel, and you will be judged according to your ability(be prepared).
Someone asked why I send 4th dan candidates to korea. I am an american instructor teaching a korean martial art/sport. I believe that if a student is willing to spend the time necessary to reach fourth poom/dan then a trip to the birthplace of tkd is mandatory. No one can argue your credentials if you pass your exam/course there. I also like knowing that I did my job right.
If the student could not afford the trip, or was unwilling, I would test them myself. Not past 4th.


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## WC_lun (Nov 1, 2010)

I've never really understood charging outragious fees for testing.  It seems to me that for a lot of schools it is just another way to make money.  I can understand covering costs and maybe a little extra for any instructors' time, but $1000s of dollars?!  That is just criminal.  For schools that aren't up front about testing fees, that is even more criminal.

Yes, there is something to paying more for something you think is worth it.  However, many people I have seen pay these high fees don't know any better.  They think it is normal to drop a couple of grand on a test because that is what they have been told by the instructor getting the money.  When they do find out, they start to view all instructors with distrust.  Much like people view mechanics because of the few crooked ones out there.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 2, 2010)

I suppose it is hard to put an exact price on these things because there is no award rate for being a martial arts instructor. If a doctor or lawyer can charge massive amounts after studying at university for 6 or 7 years then why cant a top martial artist with 30 or 40 years experience charge top dollar to train under them? Top sports coaches in most fields are not cheap, a well respected tennis coach will charge heaps, so why cant a martial artist? I suppose this is the reckoning of some out there.


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## andyjeffries (Nov 2, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> why come no one ever called Bruce Lee a crook?
> 
> Did you see his fees?  And those were before he made it big...



I haven't seen his fees - any chance you could post them (out of interest)?


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## Cirdan (Nov 2, 2010)

Doesn`t paying thousands of $`s for a test make people feel like they are buying rank rather than earning it? I certainly would. 

If I was going to spend that kind of money I`d be getting a lot of private lessons with my favourite instructors instead.


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