# The C Guard



## FeralKenpo (Jun 3, 2008)

Hello, this is my first post.
I was wondering if anyone knows the proper application of the C guard found in kenpo kata.

Thank you


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## MJS (Jun 4, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> Hello, this is my first post.
> I was wondering if anyone knows the proper application of the C guard found in kenpo kata.
> 
> Thank you


 
Welcome to Martial Talk! 

As to your question...could you please explain what kata you're talking about as well as exactly what the C guard is?

Thanks,

Mike


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## DavidCC (Jun 4, 2008)

That thing ahd me scratching my head for a while.

The C guard is when you ahve one hand inan  over-head guard, the other hand low, elbow at the waist, hand pointing forward.  Pinan 4 and kata 3 both use it.

The best applications I have seen for that came from a member here, "upnorthkyosa" (Jim).  He does TSD, they also practice the pinan set, and he has some great applications for the C guard.  

One simple one is that the high hand is holding the wrist of the attacker, the lower hand strikes to any one of many vulnerable points in the armpit or side of the body.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> That thing ahd me scratching my head for a while.
> 
> The C guard is when you ahve one hand inan over-head guard, the other hand low, elbow at the waist, hand pointing forward. Pinan 4 and kata 3 both use it.
> 
> ...


I broke a guy's arm that used this when sparring with me. If you plan to use it, watch for the pull drag knife edge kicks to the elbow.
Sean


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## Empty Hands (Jun 4, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> I broke a guy's arm that used this when sparring with me. If you plan to use it, watch for the pull drag knife edge kicks to the elbow.



You used a hard knife-edge kick to a joint when sparring?

Remind me not to spar with you.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 4, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> You used a hard knife-edge kick to a joint when sparring?
> 
> Remind me not to spar with you.


 
I actually see nothing wrong with this. I use solid strikes to test an opponents nettle all the time; also, baits reactions out of them I can use against them later. I figger, guy shoulda used a different defense. He will now.

D.


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## Empty Hands (Jun 4, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I use solid strikes to test an opponents nettle all the time; also, baits reactions out of them I can use against them later.



Solid strikes?  Sure.  Against an elbow?  Any joint?  That is _grossly _irresponsible.  No one can avoid all strikes all the time, no matter how good.  Thus, this practice is an invitation to an inevitable major injury.



Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I figger, guy shoulda used a different defense. He will now.



Hey, why not try to blind him with an eye strike?  That'll teach him to cover up!


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## DavidCC (Jun 4, 2008)

everyone has a different "risk-reward" calculation... 

but anyway, C-guard...  somebody talk about that.  I've got 2 forms that use it and 1 good application and even that isn't that good.


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## Mark L (Jun 4, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> Hello, this is my first post.
> I was wondering if anyone knows the proper application of the C guard found in kenpo kata.
> 
> Thank you


It's not really a guard.  Look at it in the context of the motion, it's typically seen executed in circular motion.  Some applications include release for wrist/lapel/shoulder grabs.  There's some lock possibilities there, too.  The initial downward sweeping of the hands can be the deflection of an incoming low attack and the follow through are simultaneous strikes (some interesting combinations of pressure point targets about the head and neck).  I could be wrong, but I don't think anything in these forms is just a guard.


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## Mark L (Jun 4, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Solid strikes?  Sure.  Against an elbow?  Any joint?  That is _grossly _irresponsible.  No one can avoid all strikes all the time, no matter how good.  Thus, this practice is an invitation to an inevitable major injury.
> 
> 
> 
> Hey, why not try to blind him with an eye strike?  That'll teach him to cover up!


You fight the way you train.  Choose your partners wisely, and the danger is minimal (it'll never be zero).  It's kempo, not dancing.


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## Matt (Jun 4, 2008)

Mark L said:


> It's not really a guard.  Look at it in the context of the motion, it's typically seen executed in circular motion.  Some applications include release for wrist/lapel/shoulder grabs.  There's some lock possibilities there, too.  The initial downward sweeping of the hands can be the deflection of an incoming low attack and the follow through are simultaneous strikes (some interesting combinations of pressure point targets about the head and neck).  I could be wrong, but I don't think anything in these forms is just a guard.



Hallelujah! I always translated 'it's a guard' as 'I don't know' and it worked well for me.

Matt


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## Mark L (Jun 4, 2008)

Matt said:


> Hallelujah! I always translated 'it's a guard' as 'I don't know' and it worked well for me.
> 
> Matt


Check.


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 4, 2008)

thanks for all of your reply's so far 
I have considered most of the things mentioned here already but, I dont know any specific applications that definately work and when/how I would use it. 
I would also like to discuss how this 'movement' is beings used specifically in 4 pinan and 3 kata. 
great posts guys, i hope to see more
Thanks


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 5, 2008)

I apologize for the double post but i could not figure out how to edit my previous one.

anyway, I watched several videos on youtube of pinan yondan to see what their application was(its mostly used as a block and then strike it seems). 

In the kenpo forms as previously stated this 'movement' or guard or whatever we are calling it, is done in a circular movement as apposed to a very straight linear one. So I would assume its application may be different.

Anyway I'd like to know specifically how you(everyone) interpret this movement in 1 kata, 3 kata, 4 pinan, and anywhere else 

Thanks!


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## marlon (Jun 5, 2008)

I have been taught  a good throw with this move.  if you are in close and pivot to the other direction while using this positiion one arm on top of the shoulder or arm of the opponent and the other under the arm...also if you consider the cup and saucer as a grab of a kick then step out with this move it lifts the leg and protects the head and can send someone flying.

marlon


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 5, 2008)

thats very interesting marlon.
I've also wondered alot about why we use the cup and saucer in our forms.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 5, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> You used a hard knife-edge kick to a joint when sparring?
> 
> Remind me not to spar with you.


It was twenty years ago and I have had goodness and niceness training since then. Beside that, its a stupid defense, given you can get your arm broken. LOL
Sean


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 5, 2008)

I asked my instructor today what the application of this movement or guard is, and he just told me it was a guard or ready position. I respect his judgment a lot but like Matt has stated(I believe it was on his website www.kempoinfo.com) that the creators of kenpo were fighters and wouldn't add something as useless 'as a guard'.

Why would we enter into that guard in a circular motion?
The only answer I got was that it was for the sake of the form.

I don't like that answer.

Discuss!!


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## Empty Hands (Jun 5, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> ...the creators of kenpo were fighters and wouldn't add something as useless 'as a guard'.



Guards are useless for fighting?  Someone better let all the, uh, fighters, know.


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## RevIV (Jun 6, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> I asked my instructor today what the application of this movement or guard is, and he just told me it was a guard or ready position. I respect his judgment a lot but like Matt has stated(I believe it was on his website www.kempoinfo.com) that the creators of kenpo were fighters and wouldn't add something as useless 'as a guard'.
> 
> Why would we enter into that guard in a circular motion?
> The only answer I got was that it was for the sake of the form.
> ...


 
i would not say gaurds are useless, maybe this one, but not all.  4 pinan, a friend of mine showed the first move as a high block as the lead hand bent the attackers arm (from the inside-cubital stroke)and in the transition brought the attacker down in front as an arm bar. (side note- cubital= crease opposite elbow) (2nd side note- typing one handed and holding a kid in the other slows things down)


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## JTKenpo (Jun 6, 2008)

RevIV said:


> (2nd side note- typing one handed and holding a kid in the other slows things down)


 
LOL  Thats how I type most of my posts


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 6, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Guards are useless for fighting? Someone better let all the, uh, fighters, know.


 
Particularly if that guard places the user at high risk for a broken arm. And particularly if that risk has been born out in training experiences. I think I'll always spar from a one-legged stance, looking behind me and not at my opponent. Thankfully, so many people are so nice, no one will ever knock my hide over or bust me in the head to illustrate that this is a bad idea. Heck; they might as well stick a finger in my eye, as test the sensibility of position and response.

Thank god martial arts aren't a contact sport or anything like that.


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## FeralKenpo (Jun 7, 2008)

I didn't mean to come across as though I thought guarding oneself is useless, what I meant to say was posing is pointless.

Do you think the people who created kenpo kata added these poses into the forms for the sake of the form?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking these questions because if there is an application, I'd like to know it.

I didn't mean to seem rude, I'm just trying to expand my knowledge.

Thank you


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## marlon (Jun 7, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> I didn't mean to come across as though I thought guarding oneself is useless, what I meant to say was posing is pointless.
> 
> Do you think the people who created kenpo kata added these poses into the forms for the sake of the form?
> 
> ...


 

you know the best way to find applications is to try things out with a partner.  use this part of the form with what came just before or what comes afterand see.  Get a good partner to work with and go through various attacks one by one.  first slow with out much resistance and focusing on the proper body mechanics and see what the move does...if anything.  then up the resistence and intensity from your partner a bit ...to test it out.  you will probasbly find a great deal of crap but everyone once in a  while something good comes up.  Be creative enough to find 'new' things and be honest enough to throw out the crap no matter how excited you may have been at the original thought.  the mechanics and basics of the form are essential...sequencing and directions are of secondary importance.  have fun, learn, ask questions, come back and teach us some stuff!

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 7, 2008)

FeralKenpo said:


> I didn't mean to come across as though I thought guarding oneself is useless, what I meant to say was posing is pointless.
> 
> Do you think the people who created kenpo kata added these poses into the forms for the sake of the form?
> 
> ...


Its a great position to pass through but I wouldn't want to stand there...


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## Mark L (Jun 7, 2008)

I think few, if any, of us have access to the minds of those that created the forms.  Some of us have instructors that use them as a basis for teaching, some of us have instructors that use them as a requirement, and little more.  My  perspective is that the forms have been given to us/me, with or without application, and it is my duty and responsibility to extract from them what *I* can.  My imagination and inquisitiveness is the _only _thing that is limiting me.  Earlier in the thread, the OP asked for some specific applications.  That gave me pause, as my take is only mine.  We could postulate what we see, than argue who's "right".  But it's really your kempo, so make it yours ...


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## DavidCC (Jun 9, 2008)

I dug thorugh my 'secret sauce' video and found an application of the C-guard.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=L1re-o6uxdk


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## DavidCC (Jun 10, 2008)

WOW 26 posts wondering what it's for, I post a video example and nobody has anything to say about it??? not even "crappy picture and no sound you suxor!" ROFL

OK here are two more applications, the first one even represents the step to 12 w/ downward crossblock from P4.

(Thanks to UpNorthKyosa for these, from Tang Soo Do)


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6031&d=1147224543
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6033&d=1147224711


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 10, 2008)

I'm such a dork. I'm looking at it thinking, "Hey. This guy looks like Oyata-sensei." After 2 passes I think to read the blurb.

Duh,

Dave


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## DavidCC (Jun 11, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I'm such a dork. I'm looking at it thinking, "Hey. This guy looks like Oyata-sensei." After 2 passes I think to read the blurb.
> 
> Duh,
> 
> Dave


 
You have to kindof squint your eyes a bit when you watch it.

Also if you hold the ALT key and press the F4 key it helps too.:wink2:

But seriouly that footage is part of a tape I was allowed to copy a few years ago.  it has all 5 pinans, Naihanchi 1 & 2, and 3 other kata as well, demonstrated and then a series of applications for each. (Many of the applications have the uki in protective gear with a crash pad behind him!  You gotta love ryukyu!)

I forget what I traded for it now, but I sure got the better end of that stick.  It's pure kempo, there are answers to questions I can't even ask yet on there.


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## DavidCC (Jun 13, 2008)

marlon said:


> I have been taught a good throw with this move. if you are in close and pivot to the other direction while using this positiion one arm on top of the shoulder or arm of the opponent and the other under the arm...also if you consider the cup and saucer as a grab of a kick then step out with this move it lifts the leg and protects the head and can send someone flying.
> 
> marlon


 
marlon, did that YT video I posted look like the application you are describing?


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## kidswarrior (Jun 14, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> I dug thorugh my 'secret sauce' video and found an application of the C-guard.
> 
> http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=L1re-o6uxdk


OK, admittedly OT a little, but toward the end, I loved the kick to the knee which resulted in a take down (defender flat on his face).

Back on topic: I think the knife hand take down in the vid is a good interpretation, and could work under pressure. To me, it would all hinge on the upper arm actually getting/maintaining a grip on the attacker's right arm. From there, it's just following through.

Another app I've seen for this, from Iain Abernethy, is against a left-arm attack by opponent. Overhead head of the C intercepts and locks on, while upright arm applies pressure behind the attacking tricep, setting up a figure four lock as defender bends the attacking elbow and locks hands.


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## DavidCC (Jun 16, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> OK, admittedly OT a little, but toward the end, I loved the kick to the knee which resulted in a take down (defender flat on his face).
> 
> Back on topic: I think the knife hand take down in the vid is a good interpretation, and could work under pressure. To me, it would all hinge on the upper arm actually getting/maintaining a grip on the attacker's right arm. From there, it's just following through.
> 
> Another app I've seen for this, from Iain Abernethy, is against a left-arm attack by opponent. Overhead head of the C intercepts and locks on, while upright arm applies pressure behind the attacking tricep, setting up a figure four lock as defender bends the attacking elbow and locks hands.


Yes, I've worked that one too, its' more difficult vs a punch but the lock is there.


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## marlon (Jun 16, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> marlon, did that YT video I posted look like the application you are describing?



not too far off.  the thing that makes it work for me is the change in direction.
thanks

marlon


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## tigdra (Aug 7, 2008)

http://kr.truveo.com/Kempo-C-Guard/id/2796462020


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## DavidCC (Aug 11, 2008)

wow, did thy scrape my video out of youtube or is that just a link to my youtube page?


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## JTKenpo (Oct 3, 2008)

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/LmgzFk4Vivs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/LmgzFk4Vivs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

A couple of interesting ideas on youtube.


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