# Technique Discussion: Thundering Hammers



## MJS (Nov 27, 2011)

Posting 2 clips of this technique, one from the Case De Kenpo series, the other from Jeff Speakmans 5.0.  Likes, dislikes?  Do you feel one is better than the other?  Do you do a different variation from the ones shown?

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## Touch Of Death (Nov 27, 2011)

In both videos they use very big circles and bring those hammers from way out behind them. In the heat of battle, I think it may be a little slow, although I sure the weapon is traveling very fast. Consider that if you simply return your weapon on a recoil (LOL) to a set position, and that you can simply drop the hammer from there. It might not look as pretty, but it is way faster and possibly a more useful concept.
Sean


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## MJS (Dec 1, 2011)

I like both versions, however, I'm inclined, though I don't do 5.0, to favor that version a bit more.  Reason being, is that from what I've seen (and I may be wrong) but alot of their techs, address punches from a boxers point of view.  Rather than a single punch, they're focusing on 2, which given the rise of MMA, is what we may be more inclined to see.  

As for the circles....yeah I see that alot.  I'm guessing its generating more power?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 1, 2011)

MJS said:


> I like both versions, however, I'm inclined, though I don't do 5.0, to favor that version a bit more.  Reason being, is that from what I've seen (and I may be wrong) but alot of their techs, address punches from a boxers point of view.  Rather than a single punch, they're focusing on 2, which given the rise of MMA, is what we may be more inclined to see.
> 
> As for the circles....yeah I see that alot.  I'm guessing its generating more power?


My issue is that a person might not see the value of dropping the hammer if all they know is the big swing.
Sean


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## MJS (Dec 4, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> My issue is that a person might not see the value of dropping the hammer if all they know is the big swing.
> Sean



OTOH, one would think that if you're going to make a big swing like that, that you'd may as well drop a few bombs or in this case, hammers, at the conclusion of the swing.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 4, 2011)

Why are we swinging big again?
Sean


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## MJS (Dec 5, 2011)

Well, like I said, I'm going to say to generate power.  Then again, Bruce Lee made the 1in. punch pretty powerful, so......


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 5, 2011)

MJS said:


> Well, like I said, I'm going to say to generate power.  Then again, Bruce Lee made the 1in. punch pretty powerful, so......


Exactly! Now consider the targets are a foot away. You can really body shift some power. 
Sean


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## MJS (Dec 5, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> Exactly! Now consider the targets are a foot away. You can really body shift some power.
> Sean



So, back to what you said....why the big swings?  If you can generate power from a shorter distance......


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 5, 2011)

MJS said:


> So, back to what you said....why the big swings?  If you can generate power from a shorter distance......


The Big circles are easier to learn, I suppose. It does take more skill to generate power without a big swing.
Sean


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## MJS (Dec 9, 2011)

I've seen alot of senior Kenpo people doing this though, the big circles.  I'm sure they can generate power with smaller movement, no?  I don't know...has this always been a part of the art, the big movement?


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes, but I believe refinement of your motion as you pass through higher levels has, also, always been part of the art.
Sean


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2011)

Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch was mostly a parlor trick to illustrate proper body mechanics. There is a time and place for full range and for shorter distances.

Look at baseball pitchers, they use a big windup because it helps generate momentum and power to throw the ball. If there was a better way by using shorter distances, one would assume that it would have been found. In MMA, most knockouts are done with the overhand right which is an arcing punch. Boxers will also windup for a giant punch when they know they have the time to do so to go for the KO.

Look again at the techniques. The hammers use big arcs to generate power and hopefully drop the bomb to end the fight. BUT, they also set up the time and place to allow for that wind up position. They aren't the main lead in technique where the opponent can defend it. You bend him over with the strike to the midsection and then use a kneecheck to offset his balance as you push his shoulder back down.

Circles generate alot more power then straigth linear strikes. Linear strikes can still be powerful, and are faster. The time and place for the circular strike is when you have created that opening to do so, which is one of the lessons of this technique. It shows a person how to incorporate circular movement without compromising your own safety.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 9, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Bruce Lee's 1 inch punch was mostly a parlor trick to illustrate proper body mechanics. There is a time and place for full range and for shorter distances.
> 
> Look at baseball pitchers, they use a big windup because it helps generate momentum and power to throw the ball. If there was a better way by using shorter distances, one would assume that it would have been found. In MMA, most knockouts are done with the overhand right which is an arcing punch. Boxers will also windup for a giant punch when they know they have the time to do so to go for the KO.
> 
> ...


From the third point of view, its an opening. And sometimes you have to ask, how would Bruce Lee do this tech.? 
Sean


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> From the third point of view, its an opening. And sometimes you have to ask, how would Bruce Lee do this tech.?
> Sean



Considering the only knowledge we have of Bruce Lee being behind an opponent in a fight, we can assume that he would keep punching him in the back of the head while trying to chase him down. :angel:

Bruce Lee relied mainly on close in linear shots in a dueling type manner.  I'm not sure if he considered weapon choices like that if you were behind the opponent.  The question is, is it the only way to do it?  Nope.  Is it the best way to do it for what it's purpose is?  Yep.  So, I think Bruce would have approved of it for what it's purpose was.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 9, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Considering the only knowledge we have of Bruce Lee being behind an opponent in a fight, we can assume that he would keep punching him in the back of the head while trying to chase him down. :angel:
> 
> Bruce Lee relied mainly on close in linear shots in a dueling type manner.  I'm not sure if he considered weapon choices like that if you were behind the opponent.  The question is, is it the only way to do it?  Nope.  Is it the best way to do it for what it's purpose is?  Yep.  So, I think Bruce would have approved of it for what it's purpose was.


Ok... LOL All I am saying is that you can generate a lot of power on the drop, using the cheap trick you mentioned with the body shift... even if you are behind the guy; so, I think Bruce would revert to a simple drop of the body. They make ya stand in a horse smacking a rock over and over from a hands raised position, in all that Shaolin stuff; so, I imagine, if trained in that manner, it would be the your first instinct. 
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2011)

MJS said:


> So, back to what you said....why the big swings? If you can generate power from a shorter distance......



when used properly, big circles are a training methodology that teaches you how to fully engage the body to generate power.  While the big circles CAN be used in a live situation as a viable technique, that is not generally the intention.  Rather, in real useage against a bad guy, you would use smaller movements.  But having trained the big movements and learned how to generate tremendous power with that full body method, you are then able to translate into a smaller movement, but still engage the full body to create the power.  

Training with the big movements to learn the method, and then applying technique with a smaller movement is a much better training progression than simply skipping the big movements and focusing on the small movements.  If you do not work thru the process and train with the big movements, you have a much harder time learning to fully engage the body and you will never reach the full potential of the technique.  

Train big to become small.  But if you only train small, you will never be as good as you might be.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 9, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> when used properly, big circles are a training methodology that teaches you how to fully engage the body to generate power.  While the big circles CAN be used in a live situation as a viable technique, that is not generally the intention.  Rather, in real useage against a bad guy, you would use smaller movements.  But having trained the big movements and learned how to generate tremendous power with that full body method, you are then able to translate into a smaller movement, but still engage the full body to create the power.
> 
> Training with the big movements to learn the method, and then applying technique with a smaller movement is a much better training progression than simply skipping the big movements and focusing on the small movements.  If you do not work thru the process and train with the big movements, you have a much harder time learning to fully engage the body and you will never reach the full potential of the technique.
> 
> Train big to become small.  But if you only train small, you will never be as good as you might be.


How long do you suppose we should do the big circles before the refinement?
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Dec 9, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> How long do you suppose we should do the big circles before the refinement?
> Sean



forever. It is something that needs constant refinement and reinforcement, and you never stop working at it. It is the basic building block upon which everything else is built

Keep in mind, this is in practice, as a drill. It's like practicing basics - it IS basics.

However, eventually you can begin working it with smaller movements as well, to begin to bridge that gap between big and small. But I'd say you still always go back and practice big, even when you are working on smaller.

And getting smaller is sort of in gradations as well. There is smaller, and then there is smaller still, and yet these may still be more like a formalized drill and not yet truly how one might do it against a real bad guy. That final gap you gotta be able to jump when it comes to it.

Keep in mind, big movements in and of themselves don't give magic answers. They only give you these results when you understand the context and specifically HOW you engage the body to drive them. It's just that big movements make it easier to grasp and understand, when the proper guidance is there. There needs to be a specific methodology to train this concept on a fundamental level before it can be integrated into something like a formalized SD tech. Once you are understanding the method and the body is "getting it", then you can begin working the concept into everything that is done, including the SD techs, kata, drills, sparring, etc. If a methodology doesn't exist in what one does to make this work, then you might be sort of grasping at it conceptually, but unclear on how to really make it happen.

I've been training in my system for something like 13 years, and I begin every practice session by drilling these fundamental concepts in various ways, starting with stances and stance changes, then working in various strikes, and then moving strikes, etc. How we do it is very specific, it's a methodology designed to ingrain the concept into the body's muscle memory. I might spend 30-40 minutes on just these fundamentals before moving on to forms practice, bag work, and two-person application drills. But when I do forms, bag work, and two person drills I still keep working on making sure this fundamental skill is being employed in the process.  Because that really IS the whole point.

It's a bit vague to describe in words, unfortunately. Kinda requires some face-to-face time to really get some glimpse of what is happening.


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## ATACX GYM (Dec 9, 2011)

My version is more than a bit different than both (what a surprise,right) but also incorporates elements of both.I can and do execute my Thundering Hammers in virtually every situation that I can fire and land my ridgehands.It's a NASTY NASTY SURPRISE.You know how we can and do surprise the crap out of some unluck BG with a ridgehand to the groin,temple,throat or something? Well we can launch Thundering Hammers from the same entry.I do it alllll the time.I swear,you can not PAY for the expressions on the faces of various BGs and sparring partners when that big ole nasty Hammer comes slamming home from some godforsaken unexpected angle.It generates almost gruesome force but when it hits? Man.The sounds faces and dances that people do are almost impossibly funny.Try it out and swap stories.I'm not kidding this mess is HILARIOUS.

Puts me of that time that I couldn't pass the guard of this big guy who was a true anus and...


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## Twin Fist (Feb 15, 2012)

this is one of my favorite epak techniques.

the big circles are an option

smaller circles are an option. the attack is the attack and the response is the response

HOW you throw the finish shots is less important than that you throw them.

IMO


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2012)

It always surprises me how big a deal we make over these tiny differences. The technique is the same in each video. Move to the outside, alternating strikes. I was taught to finish with an arm drag and a centerline strike, but that's just lineage. The basic concept is strong. It's Shield and Sword on the opposite side of the body with long range weapons instead of short range weapons. Any time you can take the outside you do, after that this technique is just letting go with rights and lefts. It looks fancy, but the idea is pretty basic. Local performance may vary, big circles, small circles, horizontal circles, vertical circles, it's all just deflect/close/batter.


-Rob


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## Bigdavid5.0 (Nov 25, 2012)

I'm sorry don't want to offend anyone but,I study 5.0 and there were some things missing.In the 1st clip 5.0 has a grab of greater control and vicious leg checks.The second was what I trained in years ago and it was rad.


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