# Preemptive Strike



## WilliamTLear (Jul 2, 2002)

If you are confronted by someone in a verbal altercation, and your opponent brandishes a weapon, at what point would you take action (before or after he tries to attack you), and why?


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## Sigung86 (Jul 2, 2002)

Weapon comes out ... Down they go!  With lots of blood and gore!

Reason?  I want to go home to my family and continue living.

Dan


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## Morpheus (Jul 2, 2002)

(I'm not a kenpoka, but I'd like to respond anyway) 

This is a no-brainer. If someone 'brandishes' a weapon such as a knife or firearm in your vicinity then you need to take action _immediately_ and that means hopefully you can disengage and get away.

If you can't, then you need to attack, attack, attack with whatever weapon you can aqquire. Maybe ask a simple question to try and engage your opponent's brain and then strike.

I'd be shocked if _anyone_ here says they would choose the option of waiting to be attacked before resonding. This is signing a death warrant unless you are in a movie.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 2, 2002)

I agree. I wonder what everyone else has to say.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 2, 2002)

Interesting..............



 I had an male individual approach me with a  pocket knife (blade closed) in his hand yesterday while doing an security type ID check.




 Should I have "Hassan Chopped" (Bugs Bunny Genie Dude) him, thrown him through a window stevie seagal style, or otherwise rendered him whores de combat ?



Nah -  No Intent to do harm ( kinda critical), he had simply pulled it out to show me he had one, and did not wish to violate any laws/regulations. read an HONEST but slightly naieve citizen.


Real world real time - Get THE HELL out of the range of the weapon being brandished at you.

 Few people are really good enough at self defense to take on an aggressive weapon wielding attacker, myself included.


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## satans.barber (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> 
> *If you are confronted by someone in a verbal altercation, and your opponent brandishes a weapon, at what point would you take action (before or after he tries to attack you), and why? *



Hrmm, I think it depends on a situation-by-situation basis, we need to be flexible and not have hard and fast rules.

If someone brandishes a weapon, say a knife, it would depend how they were brandishing it. If they had it in a  good fighting grip, I wouldn't attack them! They just stick the thing in my as soon as I moved in I would imagine. Say they pulled their coat back to reveal a knife in a scabbard though, party time, or if they reached into their coat, again, party time.

For something less threatening like a pool cue or a chair, I might have a go if I thought they were serious, again it'd depend on an appraisal of the situation at hand.

If it was a  gun I'd just do as they said. Kenpo, or any other martial art doesn't work against guns, guns work against guns. And these systema and krav maga tapes where they stand with it stuck in your back and you're meant to spin around and disarm them, what sort of feckless egit would stand like that? They'd be stood well out of hand range with it pointed at you, ready to pull the trigger.

Ian.


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## Zoran (Jul 2, 2002)

Attack! Before they decide to use it on you. Depending on the situation, I may even strike if they were reaching into their pocket.

Hopefully it wasn't a badge they were reaching for.


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## Sigung86 (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *Attack! Before they decide to use it on you. Depending on the situation, I may even strike if they were reaching into their pocket.
> 
> Hopefully it wasn't a badge they were reaching for. *



Hey Zoran!  You and I are of like mind.  That's what I meant, but didn't state correctly.

You can put a lot of interpretation on: Is he doing this ... Is he saying that ... etc.  However, if it is a hostile situation and his hand goes in a pocket ... Down he goes.  If he's going for a badge, he should have informed you that he was a cop before the situtation ever gets that far... At least in my off the wall, yet mildly humble opinion.

All things being equal, I'd rather do a little time and be alive than sit there guessing then try to have to outrun a gun!   

On the other hand, if your fast, I understand that after 8 to 12 feet, the more distance you put twixt you and the shooter, the more likely your chances of survival.  After about 8 to 12 feet, it becomes a "crap shoot" and pardon the expression, as to whether the shooter can hit you or not.

Dan


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## kenpo3631 (Jul 2, 2002)

> Anyone who runs is a VC, anyone who doesn't run is a well trained VC





> But how can you shoot women and children?





> It's easy...you don't lead em' as much.....:rofl: :_Stanley Kubrick's FULL METAL JACKET_



I think if you might be in a place where that may happen to you...then you might want to re-think your choice of hang outs...:rofl: 

If you do find yourself in that type of melay, than by all means get to him before he gets moving with that weapon.

However keep in mind, that what you do to him may make you look like the bad guy in the eyes of the authorities...:asian:


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## Zoran (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



This is similar to the To Attack, or not Attack thread I posted. 

It really surprises me how many people feel they can intelectualize these sort of situations. You need to REACTE!! Depending on your range, you really have only two options; run or fight, mame, kill, break, gouge...well, you get the picture.


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## kenpo_cory (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I agree. I think the key here is you are already in a "verbal altercation" who knows what's gonna happen. For me self-preservation would be the priority.


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## Klondike93 (Jul 2, 2002)

> It really surprises me how many people feel they can intelectualize these sort of situations. You need to REACTE!! Depending on your range, you really have only two options; run or fight, mame, kill, break, gouge...well, you get the picture.



The three things I learned from a Al McLuckie seminar where we did knife work:

Breathe
Relax
Act

In other words, breathe to get control of your emotions cause your scared. Relax so you don't end up fighting yourself too, then Act without any reservations as to the out come.


:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> 
> Interesting..............
> 
> ...



My Original question *AGAIN*:



> If you are *confronted by someone in a verbal altercation*, and your opponent brandishes a weapon, at what point would you take action (before or after he tries to attack you), and why?



I'm not trying to piss you off or anything Stick Dummy, but I don't see how a routine security check fits into the context of my question?

Be Nice,
Billy Lear
:asian:


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## brianhunter (Jul 2, 2002)

This is a big what if! Its all about how you felt with the situation, I think about this alot. Did you feel threatened? Was it a legitimate fear?...someone talked about a guy already having a pocket knife in hand Im sure this guys body langauge and demenor where appropriate enough to not warrant too much of an alarm.

Dont limit yourself on a response style I have learned this lesson I have always said if someone points a gun at or near me they are dead! This rule changed one night when I pulled someone out from underneath a car at gunpoint.......I saw what I believed to be someone hiding pointing a gun at me.........


Guess what it was a 12 year old with a water gun playing "army" who got scared to death when the cops came screeching up to a "man with a gun" call. He hid under the car and was holding the gun the way he was because it was the only way he could fit. Dont ever close a door or option that may possibly save yourself or another some day.


Be safe this holiday guys remember we are the land of the free
and there are some brave still out there


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## Zoran (Jul 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *This is a big what if! Its all about how you felt with the situation, I think about this alot. Did you feel threatened? Was it a legitimate fear?...someone talked about a guy already having a pocket knife in hand Im sure this guys body langauge and demenor where appropriate enough to not warrant too much of an alarm.
> 
> ...



Good point. This particular scenario is really meant for average citizen. Police officers have a whole diiferent world to deal with. As do security, bouncers, bodyguards and etc.


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 3, 2002)

"I'm not trying to piss you off or anything Stick Dummy, but I don't see how a routine security check fits into the context of my question?"


Mistah Lear please don't take this as a slam on you,

it is not meant to be, 

my eyes are half out of focus, NO CAFFEINE/SLEEP since 02:30,  and its all Seigs fault for taking his revenge and drawing me into THE ABYSS last night errrr, this morning    


Just a REAL WORLD scenario from the recent past to make folks think a bit before they start saying " I'D kill the s.o.b. with a/an INSERT TECHNIQUE HERE.

Shades of what Master Seig and I have begun calling "Keyboard Bravado". 

 I have seen people in the martial arts teaching "street fighting" techniques that have never been in a fight outside of the dojo. 
 The Internet can at times create a similar enviroment.

The point - Well It is my life, and there was a weapon presentation (i.e. the blade was longer than a cheap box cutter)
however benign. I DID NOT need to do anything rash or hot headed.

Did I have a plan? 
Nah I'm WAAAAAAAAAY to stupid to think ahead
that far into the future.  

Did I have a instant fluid dynamic response in mind if the situation turned sour? absolutely! Would it be decisive? Dunno it did not happen.........


 I have also had the oppertunity to deal with situations EXACTLY as you mentioned personally that escalated to even worse.  I got lucky and was the one that walked / limped away.


Again this is not meant as a slam.


Stick Dummy humbly bows:asian:


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## D.Cobb (Jul 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> 
> *Interesting..............
> 
> ...



Fair response, but the question was to do with someone "BRANDISHING" a weapon, not approaching to show it to you.

If he had pulled it to do damage, then all of the above responses would have been acceptable.

Just my .02 worth.
--Dave

:asian:


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## Morpheus (Jul 3, 2002)

If you worry about reading the situation too much, second guessing yourself, reading facial language etc. you may fall behind in the force continuum and find yourself shanked while you are still wondering which level of threat is presented to you.

If someone brandishes a weapon in your face after a verbal altercation, I say again that if you can't run, then the legimitmate response is overwhelming attack, preferably with your own weapon. That doesn't make those who take this position 'keyboard warriors', as stick dummy seems to be implying,  it is just good sense. If you wait for them to make clear their intentions and they are hostile, then the chances are you are a dead duck. Action is faster than reaction and the cards will be stacked against you.

The idea that as civillians we somehow have a greater responsibility to someone brandishing a weapon at us than an LEO is rubbish. If someone pulls a weapon on you, escalating the situation, then by law _if_ you are in fear of your life then you are justified in doing whatever is necessary to neutralise them.


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 5, 2002)

No problem Stick Dummy... You didn't hurt my feelings. Thanks for keeping it at a civil level though.

As for defending my self using any force necessary... I have to agree with Morpheus here. I don't think of myself as a "Keyboard Warrior" (funny name though). I've had to defend myself in quite a few _real_ combat situations before, and although I haven't killed anyone yet, I have had to use a level of force which could have taken my attacker's life.

Deadly force, doesn't mean that you are going to kill your opponent. What the term does imply is that you are attacking an opponent with enough force to make death a likely outcome. 

Let's be real for a minute and set aside all the ********...
If someone comes at me with a knife and tries to run me through with it, I'm not going to try a dainty little nerve strike to neutralize him. I'm gunna try to beat him until he isn't moving anymore (with anything I can get my hands on). If that means that the S.O.B. is dead or in a coma when I'm done, at least my primary objective is achived. I'm alive and he can't hurt me anymore.

If that makes me a Keybord Warrior, then I guess that means I'm gunna have to hit you on the head with my Keyboard... (just kidding).

Take Care,
Billy Lear


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 5, 2002)

Morpheus... you had alot of good points as well. Thanks for you input.:asian:


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## Stick Dummy (Jul 5, 2002)

WHOAAA!

REALITY CHECK!

I N-E-V-E-R  said "keyboard warrrior"


that was "someone else's" 10 cents


"Keyboard Bravado" as what I mentioned, and from the dictionary at hand it looks just a little different in both context and intent.




WT glad you survived your encounters



Ofta digest a boat load of combination fried rice and fried dumplings


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## Nightingale (Jul 6, 2002)

Friend of mine got in a sitch like this...

A guy decided to make an issue of something my friend had said to the guy's girlfriend (she was hitting on Sean when her boyfriend's back was turned, and when he told her to back off, she told her boyfriend he'd insulted her).  The guy followed him out to the parking lot and brandished a swiss army knife at Sean.  He was five or six feet away when he pulled the knife, and Sean said the guy didn't look like he really knew what to do with the weapon, since he was holding it point upward and didn't look like he had a real good grip...plus, the guy was too drunk to notice he was holding the blade side facing himself instead of my friend.  Sean took a chance and moved his hand upward to distract, then snapkicked the guy's wrist. The knife went flying off somewhere, and, deprived of his toy, the attacker wasn't quite so brave, and turned tail and ran.   I should probably add that Sean is a US Marine and trained for stuff like this.  Had I been in that situation, I honestly have no idea what I would have done.  Screamed my head off, probably.


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## Sigung86 (Jul 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *Friend of mine got in a sitch like this...
> 
> ...



Whatever gets you out of the tightspot can't be all bad!

Dan


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## WilliamTLear (Jul 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *Friend of mine got in a sitch like this...
> 
> A guy decided to make an issue of something my friend had said to the guy's girlfriend (she was hitting on Sean when her boyfriend's back was turned, and when he told her to back off, she told her boyfriend he'd insulted her).  The guy followed him out to the parking lot and brandished a swiss army knife at Sean.  He was five or six feet away when he pulled the knife, and Sean said the guy didn't look like he really knew what to do with the weapon, since he was holding it point upward and didn't look like he had a real good grip...plus, the guy was too drunk to notice he was holding the blade side facing himself instead of my friend.  Sean took a chance and moved his hand upward to distract, then snapkicked the guy's wrist. The knife went flying off somewhere, and, deprived of his toy, the attacker wasn't quite so brave, and turned tail and ran.   I should probably add that Sean is a US Marine and trained for stuff like this.  Had I been in that situation, I honestly have no idea what I would have done.  Screamed my head off, probably. *



Nightingale,

I am impressed with how Sean reacted in this situation. I am also impressed with the fact that he didn't persue the guy and beat him to a bloody mess on the floor after after he defused the situation (there aren't very many people that could let that kind of thing go without trying to make a bigger impression on onlookers and rubberneckers.)

I think that your honesty about how you would react in a similar situation should be commended. Screaming isn't bad, many times it will scare off an attacker. My only hope is that your journey in Kenpo gives you the confidence and ability to defend yourself if need be.

Great post! Keep workin hard,
Billy Lear:asian:


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## Kalicombat (Jul 7, 2002)

First, if the scenario went down as initially described, I am with Zoran, if the guy starts reaching, after a verbal confrontation, the door has been opened. I would attack at that point. If I was wrong, and he was reaching for a pack of gum, that is my bad, but if I was right, then I'm going home void of any extra holes in my anatomy. 

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist.


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