# My "If you're not Catholic, shut up" rant



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2011)

As a Catholic, I am always amazed at the number of non-Catholics, both Christian and non-Christian, including non-religious, who have a lot to say about the workings of the Catholic Church.  My take on it has always been that a) if they're not Catholic, they most likely don't understand it, and b) what business is it of theirs anyway and c) why does it bother them what rules the Catholic Church imposes on its members if they're not affected by those rules in any way?

_I'm not talking about scandals_ here, mind you; when a Priest is a sexual abuser or predator, that clearly affects more than just the Catholic Church; and so do internal coverups and all that sort of thing.  I'm just talking about dogma; the internal rules and precepts that govern the internal workings of the RCC.

The latest to catch my eye really has me irritated.  The so-called _'iPhone Confessional'_ brouhaha.

The RCC requires that practical Catholics confess their sins every so often to a Priest, who hears them under the seal of the confessional, and then metes out the Sacrament of Penance and absolves the penitent (forgives in Christ's name) the sins confessed.  Catholics believe that Christ gave the Church the power to forgive sin in His name.

Prior to going to confession, a Catholic is supposed to diligently search their conscience and call to mind their sins.  How to do this and what kind of sins are covered in the training that Catholic receive at a young age or during the conversion process if they come to the Church later in life.  But it can be a bit of a difficult mental exercise to go through one's memory and try very hard to take note of when has broken the Commandments in both sins of commission and sins of omission (things one has done and things one has failed to do).  It's not quite like Hollywood portrayals, ie, _"I took the Lord's name in vain six times since the last confession."  "Say six Hail Mary's and four Our Father's, my son.  Your sins are forgiven."_

So here comes this iPhone app that simply allows a Catholic to go through the commandments, think about what they've done and not done, even have their memory jogged, and then tick off boxes indicating what they need to resolve with their Priest.  The idea is no different than a piece of scratch paper and having the Bible readily at hand, really, it's just more convenient.

It was developed in a small diocese and approved by a local bishop.  And I agree; it seems like a very useful app.  Seems to me like it might remind Catholics that they are required to confess, and help them examine their consciences and remember what they did or didn't do and what they need to report to their Priest in the Confessional.

But the press reported it and they of course made a total mess of it.  First, they reported that Rome says that *Catholics can confess to their iPhones* instead of a priest in a confessional.  *NO, NO, NO!*  Rome never approved it, a local bishop did.  And one does not 'confess' to the iPhone app, one merely makes notes of one's sins to be reported to one's Priest in the confessional.

Now that they've misreported who approved the app, and what the app does, they're gathering *shocked reactions* from Catholics and non-Catholics alike, as well as shocked clergy who hadn't heard the true story but only read the idiotic headlines about *'robo-confession'* and reacted angrily to what was not even true in the first place.

It ticks me off.  Folks, _if you're not Catholic, confession has nothing to do with you_.  If you are Catholic, this app is nothing more than a memory-jogging app that helps you to examine your conscience, make notes, and then help remember them when you speak to your Priest in the Confessional.  There's no automatic forgiveness, no robo-confessional, and no, Rome hasn't approved the app - Rome doesn't have to.  In fact, no one has to.  If a Priest chooses to ban an iPhone in the confessional, one can always simply write down the list of sins one wishes to confess and take those in after using the iPhone app.

Most Catholic churches report that Confession is way way down in popularity; people just don't confess much anymore.  It takes time, it's embarrassing, it makes some people feel badly about themselves, and of course, there is the Penance one must do.  But it is required of a practical Catholic; anything that makes it easier to prepare for Confession and then actually go to Confession seems to me to be a pretty good idea.

But it will probably end up being withdrawn because of idiot reporters and non-Catholics who have strong opinions about things they don't understand and which don't affect them anyway.

OK, I feel better now. * Rant over.*   Thanks for reading!


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## Archangel M (Feb 11, 2011)

The media...spreading controversy unintentionally or purposefully belittling people/organizations that they disapprove of?

The world may never know.


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## girlbug2 (Feb 11, 2011)

I thought that article sounded botched the first time I read it. Thanks for clearing it up Bill.


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## Blade96 (Feb 11, 2011)

I've never had a word ever to say about Confession, good or bad. You're right - I'm not Catholic, and so that part of it has nothing to do with me.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 11, 2011)

Aye, I too have only heard of this in a peripheral kind of way i.e. seen the 'headline' on the BBC but didn't read the article.  Even without reading it tho', I too reached the general (false) conclusion that it seems has been made about this phone app - I recall thinking something along the lines of "tsk, so much for diligent faith" or somesuch before I moved on.

Despite my strong views on religion, I am actually pleased to hear that the app is *not* what it was presented as in the media.  As misrepresented, even to a non-religionist {yeah, I inveneted my own label :lol:} like myself it seemed an awful 'commercial' thing to do to what should be a personal experience.  I am glad that it's purpose is entirely different - an aide memoire rather than an ersatz 'Father' :tup:.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2011)

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.  This article is shot through with complete, bald-faced, outright, lies.

http://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/vatican-city-is-not-okay-with-confession-by-iphone/



> Pay attention, Catholic readers. This is important:  the Vatican doesnt want you confessing to your iPhone.
> As  the digital revolution continues to ease life in myriad ways, the top  organization in the Catholic Church has decreed that Confession: A Roman  Catholic App, a newly released iPhone  app that advertises itself as the perfect aid for every penitent, is,  predictably, not going to fly as a replacement for in-church  confessionals. It is essential to understand that the rites of penance  require a personal dialogue between penitents and their confessor, Holy  See press officer Federico Lombardi said in a statement. It cannot be  replaced by a computer [COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]application[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR].



I'm sure the quote is correct, but the application DID NOT REPLACE CONFESSION.


> The Vaticans seal of disapproval invalidates an endorsement of the app from Catholic bishop Kevin Rhoades, who gave the app the Churchs wait for it _blessing_ earlier this week. Confession was developed by Little iApps in collaboration with two Catholic priests.



No, the bishop did NOT give his blessing to an application to which one could confess their sins.  That is a complete lie.

At the end of this hit piece, they 'come clean' to a tiny extent:



> The app is described in its iTunes description  as an opportunity for Catholics to prayerfully prepare for and  participate in the Rite of Penance. Individuals who have been away from  the sacrament for some time will find Confession: A Roman Catholic App  to be a useful and inviting tool. *So its not like the app purports  itself to be any kind of replacement for actual churchgoing.*



Yeah, like anyone reads down to the very bottom to find out that the salacious headlines were in fact completely made up and wrong.

BASTICHES!  ICE HOLES!

Now I have to go to confession myself.  Dang.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Now I have to go to confession myself.  Dang.



:chuckles:  Fear not my friend, in your shoes I would have been equally flabbergasted too.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2011)

Boy I&#8217;m glad I read that because based on local news I was beginning to have my doubts about this thread.

And perish the thought&#8230;as a non-catholic&#8230; why would I ever say anything about an organization that officially forgave Galileo for claiming the earth orbits the sun&#8230;339 years after his death 

As for Confession, I was once seriously involved with a Catholic Woman (engaged) and I do not understand the whole Confession thing and from what I understand I am not sure I would ever do it but I knew it was not as popular as it once was because she never went to it and in the church I was going to they turned one of the confessionals into a bathroom. As the head priest put it..."after 30 years as a priest they finally named something after me...."The John"


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## crushing (Feb 11, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> As for Confession, I was once seriously involved with a Catholic Woman (engaged) and I do not understand the whole Confession thing and from what I understand I am not sure I would ever do it but I knew it was not as popular as it once was because she never went to it.


 
Xue,  I don't know if it is good or bad that your serious relationship with the Catholic Woman didn't send her to the confessional.

:uhyeah:


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> As for Confession, I was once seriously involved with a Catholic Woman (engaged) and I do not understand the whole Confession thing and from what I understand I am not sure I would ever do it but I knew it was not as popular as it once was because she never went to it and in the church I was going to they turned one of the confessionals into a bathroom. As the head priest put it..."after 30 years as a priest they finally named something after me...."The John"



You are quite right that Confession is nowhere near as popular as it was among Catholics.  But the idea is pretty simple, really.

Given that Christians believe man was born into a sinful state, due to Original Sin, one must be received into the Church and Baptized in the name of God to receive forgiveness.

However, the Catholic Church does not believe that once forgiven from Original Sin, man stops sinning and no longer requires forgiveness.

Many Christian denominations believe that sins must continue to be forgiven, but I don't think any of them except the Catholic Church and some of the Eastern Orthodox Churches believe that the priest must be the go-between from sinner to God.

So the idea of Confession is simple.  A Catholic searches their conscience for sins they have committed, either by action or by inaction.  There must be three acts to the confession.  Contrition (being genuinely sorry), disclosure (stating your sins to your priest) and satisfaction (penance or punishment levied on the penitent by the Priest).  If these things are satisfied, the Priest forgives the confessed sins in Jesus' name.  As mentioned, the Catholic Church believes that they have the authority to do so given by Jesus to the Church.


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## granfire (Feb 11, 2011)

Seems to me that this is not a matter of confessions or religion, but of lousy journalism and the culprit should be taken to task.

It really does not matter if it's an app, or whatever. Not getting the facts right is inexcusable. That's what gives the media a bad name. 

I had not seen the headlines. I would have probably chuckles 'there's an app for that' and gone about my merry way.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2011)

granfire said:


> Seems to me that this is not a matter of confessions or religion, but of lousy journalism and the culprit should be taken to task.



Sadly, it's not just one journalist or one agency to take to task; I can post links to a dozen or more major media organizations that covered the 'story' incorrectly.  At that point, it stops being lousy journalism and starts being *intentional misreporting*.  What some call 'bias'.


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## punisher73 (Feb 11, 2011)

It's because religion, and Christianity in general, are not popular.  It IS popular for the newsmedia to make fun of it any chance they get and to make it look bad as well.

I rarely watch the news anymore, because it is NOT news.  It's gossip plain and simple.  Real news takes only a few minutes to give the facts/details of what happened.  Now, we have "news" that gives their opinions on everything and have admittedly tried to shape politics with their opinions on things because it was "their duty".


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Now I have to go to confession myself. Dang.


 
I think not. I'm sure this comment of yours was a bit tongue-in-cheek but let's remember that righteous anger is no sin. Emotions in themselves are not sinful, and people like St. Paul and St. Jerome were hadly shrinking violets. Then there was that whole whipping the money changers thing. If God Incarnate - whose every action is meant as a model for our lives can do that - I think setting the record straight on this topic hardly qualifies as being grist for confession.

The real problem is with Catholics who see their religion being repeatedly belittled by others and feel _no_ indignation. Indifference to the holy is not the same thing as detachment.

Pax,

Chris


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## granfire (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sadly, it's not just one journalist or one agency to take to task; I can post links to a dozen or more major media organizations that covered the 'story' incorrectly.  At that point, it stops being lousy journalism and starts being *intentional misreporting*.  What some call 'bias'.




Exactly. Of course, when the subject matter is something one does not care about, the real damage is not easily seen. 

But we really life in a time where the quick sale over shadows the truth.

I think it should serve as a prime reminder that we need, no MUST demand better from our medias!


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2011)

FYI, I just sent an email to the author of a story posted a short while ago on the SF Chronicle webpage that infers that the app was approved in error - that it was designed to allow confession via iPhone, but the Vatican slapped it down.  ARGH!  NO NO NO!

What were we saying about anger and letting go in a recent thread?  I'm getting good and ticked off now.  Oh well.  This too shall pass.


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## ballen0351 (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sadly, it's not just one journalist or one agency to take to task; I can post links to a dozen or more major media organizations that covered the 'story' incorrectly. At that point, it stops being lousy journalism and starts being *intentional misreporting*. What some call 'bias'.


 Thats because its normally 1 person that writes a story then 50 news outlets reprint or use it.  Usually a freelance writer who will sell his story to many papers and websites.  Ive seen it happen to me once they did an article about a shooting I had and spelled my name wrong it was then wrong in 3 different papers all because it was the same typo because it was the same story


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It ticks me off.  Folks, _if you're not Catholic, confession has nothing to do with you_.  If you are Catholic, this app is nothing more than a memory-jogging app that helps you to examine your conscience, make notes, and then help remember them when you speak to your Priest in the Confessional.  There's no automatic forgiveness, no robo-confessional, and no, Rome hasn't approved the app - Rome doesn't have to.  In fact, no one has to.  If a Priest chooses to ban an iPhone in the confessional, one can always simply write down the list of sins one wishes to confess and take those in after using the iPhone app.



The app is simply a new version of an Examination of Conscience.  Most parishes I've been in have a flier or pamphlet in the vestibule to assist penitents in preparing for confession.  This isn't particularly different than if I were to download one on my smart phone and review it while waiting...

Oh, and as for confession being down...  Not in my parish!  It's a safe bet on spending a most of an hour if you go to the scheduled confessions due to the lines.  If you're lucky, and early, you can be towards the front of the line, but I've walked in at the start and had lines for each of the several priests present that were 8 to 10 people deep...


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## granfire (Feb 11, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> The app is simply a new version of an Examination of Conscience.  Most parishes I've been in have a flier or pamphlet in the vestibule to assist penitents in preparing for confession.  This isn't particularly different than if I were to download one on my smart phone and review it while waiting...
> 
> Oh, and as for confession being down...  Not in my parish!  It's a safe bet on spending a most of an hour if you go to the scheduled confessions due to the lines.  If you're lucky, and early, you can be towards the front of the line, but I've walked in at the start and had lines for each of the several priests present that were 8 to 10 people deep...




Maybe you are living in a sinful area? 


<runs for cover>


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## granfire (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> FYI, I just sent an email to the author of a story posted a short while ago on the SF Chronicle webpage that infers that the app was approved in error - that it was designed to allow confession via iPhone, but the Vatican slapped it down.  ARGH!  NO NO NO!
> 
> What were we saying about anger and letting go in a recent thread?  I'm getting good and ticked off now.  Oh well.  This too shall pass.



Try the tried and true method:
Print it on a sheet of paper and mail it.

Letters to the editor...


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## elder999 (Feb 11, 2011)

I appreciate your rant, but:



Bill Mattocks said:


> It ticks me off. Folks, _if you're not Catholic, confession has nothing to do with you_. !


 
The rite of auricular confession-that is to say, one on one confession to a priest or elder- also exists within the Eastern Orthodox/Eastern Catholic, Lutheran, and Anglican/Episcopal churches. 

Of course, the Anglican and Episcopal churches are sort of _Roman Catholic *lite*_: all the standing up and sitting down, and less than half the guilt. :lol:


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 11, 2011)

If we only commented on things in the world that directly affect us today, wed have very little to talk about here at MT and very few people to talk with.

Sometimes opinions from outsiders let us see perspectives we may never have considered.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> If we only commented on things in the world that directly affect us today, wed have very little to talk about here at MT and very few people to talk with.
> 
> Sometimes opinions from outsiders let us see perspectives we may never have considered.



I agree, but not if they don't know what they are talking about.  To wit, this app, which does not do what the authors of a few hundred newspaper and online articles claim it does.  If they were Catholic (or a faith that practices confession, thanks Elder), they might.


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## Blade96 (Feb 11, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree, but not if they don't know what they are talking about.



actually, they can. Doesn't mean anyone's gonna listen to em though.


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## granfire (Feb 11, 2011)

elder999 said:


> I appreciate your rant, but:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Actually, those protestant heretics are great on having confessions. They just do it standing up in front of the congregation...
has it's upside though: The Preacher can't blackmail you.... (and yes, that is a POV from precedent...)


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2011)

I remember my college bf and I deciding to go to confession one time in late spring.  We were out in the city in the only vehicle we had (our bikes), and after a couple of soggy trips across the Fens (parkland in the Fenway neighborhood), we were pretty much covered in mud.  My bf goes in and sees one of the retired Irish priests milling about and shouts "Bless us, Father, for we are muddy!"  The old fellow doesn't miss a beat.  He looks at us, shakes his head, breaks in to a grin and says "I'm afraid not even holy water can help you two."  :lfao:

I think the joke is on the reporters, personally.  I suspect even without knowing anything about the app, most Catholics know exactly what that it is for just by hearing the name of it.


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## elder999 (Feb 11, 2011)

granfire said:


> Actually, those protestant heretics are great on having confessions. They just do it standing up in front of the congregation...
> has it's upside though: The Preacher can't blackmail you.... (and yes, that is a POV from precedent...)


 

1) Eastern Orthodox aren't "Protestants"; they're "Eastern *Orthodox*", in existence since well before the reformation.

2) I said-and explained-"auricular confession," and distinguished it as such-while not as mandatory as in the Roman Catholic church, the rite does exist, and can be asked for. There are even Anglican and Episcopal churches with confessionals. Orthodox Christians are expected to participate in auricular confession a few times each year. Auricular confession also exists within the Coptic church(another Orthodoxy)-as well as within a couple of non-Christian religions.


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## granfire (Feb 11, 2011)

elder999 said:


> 1) Eastern Orthodox aren't "Protestants"; they're "Eastern *Orthodox*", in existence since well before the reformation.
> 
> 2) I said-and explained-"auricular confession," and distinguished it as such-while not as mandatory as in the Roman Catholic church, the rite does exist, and can be asked for. There are even Anglican and Episcopal churches with confessionals. Orthodox Christians are expected to participate in auricular confession a few times each year. Auricular confession also exists within the Coptic church(another Orthodoxy)-as well as within a couple of non-Christian religions.



Talking strictly about my baptist, etc neighbors of mine... ^_^


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2011)

crushing said:


> Xue, I don't know if it is good or bad that your serious relationship with the Catholic Woman didn't send her to the confessional.
> 
> :uhyeah:


 

ahhh but I'm not Catholic :EG:


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2011)

I'm an ex-Catholic Atheist and I STILL appreciate confession.  The act of admitting to another human being your moral failings is cathartic because it means that you can no longer hide it.  I find that if I talk about these things with my wife or even a priest, which I still do now and then, I can personally grow into a better person.  If I try to hide it, chances are I'm not going to take responsibility for it.  IMHO, relieving ourselves from the burden of sin and doing the required penance is a metaphor for this very real human activity.

It's times like this where I wish I could explain in person to the reporter what this is all about.  I wonder if he'd respond or continue with his smug contempt?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 12, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> I'm an ex-Catholic Atheist...



How does that work?  You used to be a Catholic Atheist and now you're not?

Just kidding...


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> How does that work?  You used to be a Catholic Atheist and now you're not?
> 
> Just kidding...



Thanks for that, Bill.  You're awesome!


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## jks9199 (Feb 12, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> I'm an ex-Catholic Atheist and I STILL appreciate confession.  The act of admitting to another human being your moral failings is cathartic because it means that you can no longer hide it.  I find that if I talk about these things with my wife or even a priest, which I still do now and then, I can personally grow into a better person.  If I try to hide it, chances are I'm not going to take responsibility for it.  IMHO, relieving ourselves from the burden of sin and doing the required penance is a metaphor for this very real human activity.
> 
> It's times like this where I wish I could explain in person to the reporter what this is all about.  I wonder if he'd respond or continue with his smug contempt?


Another factor that's easily overlooked in many Protestant responses to the sacrament of reconciliation is the relief of simply being told "you're forgiven."


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## CanuckMA (Feb 12, 2011)

All in all, I still prefer the way we do it. Wholesale. Once a year. :ultracool


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## granfire (Feb 12, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> All in all, I still prefer the way we do it. Wholesale. Once a year. :ultracool



Doesn't that overload your app?


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## girlbug2 (Feb 13, 2011)

Canuck, you confess like I clean windows; spring cleaning.


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## crushing (Feb 13, 2011)

If you're not Catholic, shut up...

This quote was in the "The Funnies" section of my small town weekly newspaper: "The Catholic Church has approved a new app that lets you make confessions over your iPhone.  It also raises the possibility of accidentally butt-dialing God."  -Conan O'Brien

He [Conan O'Brien] is the third of six children. O'Brien's family is Irish Catholic and descends from pre-Civil War era immigrants. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conan_O'Brien

Is it forgivable for a comedian to play loose with the facts to get a laugh?


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## Ramirez (Feb 14, 2011)

on the other hand Bill, on things like same sex marriage or abortion for non-Catholics the Catholic Church should shut up but it seems to feel free to try effect secular law for non-Catholics.

 Good for the goose.....


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## Blade96 (Feb 16, 2011)

Ramirez said:


> on the other hand Bill, on things like same sex marriage or abortion for non-Catholics the Catholic Church should shut up but it seems to feel free to try effect secular law for non-Catholics.
> 
> Good for the goose.....



Thats true as well. I didnt go there though cause the topic's about confession.


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## Archangel M (Feb 17, 2011)

Ramirez said:


> on the other hand Bill, on things like same sex marriage or abortion for non-Catholics the Catholic Church should shut up but it seems to feel free to try effect secular law for non-Catholics.
> 
> Good for the goose.....



"Butting in" about what we consider MURDER is something we should "shut up" about???

Comparing our stance on abortion to what we see as intentional misrepresentation of the sacrament of confession is a stretch.

Nice try though.


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## shesulsa (Feb 17, 2011)

Not too many people get to tell me to shut up.

IN ALL FAIRNESS:

Those who believe idiot media stories designed to fill time because either censorship or lazy-*** reporters can't produce quality, fair and accurate news should be educated better - and THAT's awholenuther bawl-o-wax.

Many organizations, schools, celebrities, citizens, etcetera get crappy exposure because of crappy reporting.  Dude - it's the Dirty Laundry Axiom ... people find this **** entertaining because we've become a culture of rage junkies. It's easy to rage against the RCC. And religion. And the democrats. And so on ....

IN ALL FAIRNESS:

It IS imperative to closely monitor and critique organization with (arguably) too much power - that border on cultism, and frankly this is what the RCC has always seemed to be to me.  

Was the article fair and accurate? No.  Is the RCC fair? No.  What may seem to some faithful, practicing Catholics as divinely inspired doctrine appears to others as simply mind-control through obedience and suffering.

SO ... in the age of convenience, one has to wonder just how much we sacrifice in so very many ways just to be able to do more, go more places, be more portable, have convenience to go along with us.  Does it make life simpler or does it demean the divine spirit?

"Don't pray in the synagogues, pray alone in your room."  ;-)


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> Not too many people get to tell me to shut up.


 
I am guessing anyone who crazy enough to tell you shut up is way too late for confession and they should just start praying (period)


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 17, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As a Catholic, I am always amazed at the number of non-Catholics, both Christian and non-Christian, including non-religious, who have a lot to say about the workings of the Catholic Church. My take on it has always been that a) if they're not Catholic, they most likely don't understand it, and b) what business is it of theirs anyway and c) why does it bother them what rules the Catholic Church imposes on its members if they're not affected by those rules in any way?
> 
> _I'm not talking about scandals_ here, mind you; when a Priest is a sexual abuser or predator, that clearly affects more than just the Catholic Church; and so do internal coverups and all that sort of thing. I'm just talking about dogma; the internal rules and precepts that govern the internal workings of the RCC.
> 
> ...


 
Bill,

I have not read the thread I have only read this post and the first post in this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93495



Bill Mattocks said:


> One of the arguments against legalizing same-sex marriage has been that it opens the floodgates to changing the definition of marriage to include all sorts of things, including polygamous marriage. This has routinely been pooh-poohed by proponents of same-sex marriage, who insist that same-sex marriage does not create a 'slippery slope' condition and won't lead to any such thing.
> 
> I think the facts are becoming clear. This is about Canada - I don't think it will be long before similar court cases appear in the USA...
> 
> ...


 


Personally I think you should look at what you have said and think about it.  

I as a non Catholic am not allowed to comment abotu the Catholic Church, yet you are allowed to call things Silly and insult people and their religious beliefs. 

I really think you are asking for it to be your way only and for everyone else to Shut up. 

This is my personal problem with most religous people in general. They all think everyone should think like they do. And are mad when they do not. 

You take your Morals and try to apply them directly to Law. 

Personally I think and based upon how this country is set up it should operate similar to this:

Morals => Values => Ethics => law

People can be influenced with a Cultural Moral or a Religious Moral or both or they might be the same. 

One can take their Morals and live by a set of personal values. These values are what they hold to be "good" for them and for society. 

One can argue then about these Values and are they Ethical within a said society. 

i.e. applying your religous morals to others by law. I believe it to be unethical and also to be unconstitutional as it is holding one religion above the others. In this case, it would  Christianity in general. 

So make your points, but try not to be insulting and name calling and you might get people of different view points to consider your arguements. 

As a society we can thake what is ethical and or unethical and create a law around that.


Yet, when someone goes straight from religious Morals to Law, I have a problemw with their arguement. 

How does multiple partners effect how you raise your kids in your home? You have the option to private school and home school, so they do not need to interact with others in public. 

I am not trying to get into a heat discussion with you about your religion, but instead to try to engage you to think in a more critical manner and express your points better without being negative and insulting. 

And no, I am not a Mormon either.


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## Ramirez (Feb 18, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> "Butting in" about what we consider MURDER is something we should "shut up" about???
> 
> Comparing our stance on abortion to what we see as intentional misrepresentation of the sacrament of confession is a stretch.
> 
> Nice try though.



 And why should the Catholic Church extend it mores to anyone except Catholics?  If the Church wants to say its adherents can't have same sex marriage or an abortion, fine, when it tries to force it mores on anyone else, well then non-Catholic have license to comment on the Catholic Church. It isn't so much these issues but the fact the RC tries to extend its influence beyond Catholics, those were just examples.


  Nice try on creating a straw man though.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Feb 18, 2011)

Bill, I sympathise with you, and I agree that the news articles that you quoted sounded deliberately deceiving.  But as far as the whole "If you're not Catholic, shut up" thing is concerned, this forum's chock full of posts commenting from the outside about religious practices and beliefs.  Christianity, Islam, Catholicism, atheism etc. have all been commented on by posters who have only a surface understanding of their topic.  I'm not accusing you specifically of doing so, but it's really nothing new.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 19, 2011)

This is a strange report. I can't even comprehend why a journalist would want to write an article about this. Catholics have been praying to lifeless statues for years, and now they are asking forgiveness through an iphone they are getting negative attention.

There are soooo many more important things journalists should be writing about to do with the Catholic church like:

How Ratzinger was instrumental in sacrificing innocent children by protecting pedophiles so that his precious organisation wouldn't suffer.

How the Catholic church make billions off the back of the poorest nations on earth through spiritual cohersion.

How the catholic church was the greatest political stunt in history. Constantine unifying the Roman pagan church and christianity by merely naming the minor pagan gods with christian saint names and of course the worship of "The Blessed Virgin" proves this.

How the vile Cardinal Law was relocated to the Vatican to avoid possible prosecution for protecting child molesters.

I was born a Catholic (I'm thankfully not anymore) and it chaps my *** when Catholics tell me not to comment about their religion especially when the Churches vile actions effect us all.


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## jks9199 (Feb 19, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> This is a strange report. I can't even comprehend why a journalist would want to write an article about this. Catholics have been praying to lifeless statues for years, and now they are asking forgiveness through an iphone they are getting negative attention.
> 
> There are soooo many more important things journalists should be writing about to do with the Catholic church like:
> 
> ...


It might help if you didn't deliberately mis-state and confuse actions of individuals with matters of the Catholic Faith.

Catholics do not "pray to lifeless statues."  We do ask the Communion of Saints (all those who have died and are in heaven), especially those named and recognized saints whose lives here on Earth were exemplary and give us all hope, for their intercession.  We ask Mary, the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ, for her intercession as well.  Statues -- including the Crucifix -- are nothing but images; we don't expect them to do anything at all and don't need them to pray.  Asking the Saints and the Blessed Mother for their intercession isn't all that different than asking someone who'se in a position to influence a decision to in your favor  The issue of this app as a means of receiving the Sacrament of Confession has already been addressed at length above.

The actions, such as moving and hiding child molester priests, are indeed reprehensible, and the Church has quite deservedly taken a whole lot of heat over it.  The Church remains an institution made up of men, and in that sense is fallible.  Infallibility is limited to issues of faith and morals.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Asking the Saints and the Blessed Mother for their intercession isn't all that different than asking someone who'se in a position to influence a decision to in your favor The issue of this app as a means of receiving the Sacrament of Confession has already been addressed at length above.
> 
> .


Yes, I know, necromancy is rife in the Catholic church, which, if I'm not mistaking was expressly prohibited by....yes you guessed it, God. Graven images are also prohibited. If I'm not mistaken, the sexual abuse of minors is also prohibited. It would seem however, that the practise of pedophilia was practised for generations by ordained members of the Catholic Church and covered up by it's leaders. 

It must have been a dreadful inconvenience to Rome when secular governments and media sources began to uncover the truth. After all those tithes need to keep flowing if the Vatican is going to keep hold of it's priceless real estate and art collection. The Pope also needs a priceless ring on his finger for his minions to kiss.

Sorry, i'll try to stick to the OP. What's all this about I-Phones and confessions?


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> The actions, such as moving and hiding child molester priests, are indeed reprehensible, and the Church has quite deservedly taken a whole lot of heat over it. The Church remains an institution made up of men, and in that sense is fallible. Infallibility is limited to issues of faith and morals.


 
Quite true, all institutions are fallible, but doesn't botter you the Cardinal Law was a member of the enclave the voted Ratzinger in as Pope. It bothers me to know that the only time during generations of abuse that the Catholic hierarchy expressed regret, was after they were caught. I remember when Brendan Smith was caught in Ireland back in 94 or 95. It made my stomach turn.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 20, 2011)

Private confession is something that only got started in the 7th century
http://www.justforcatholics.org/a23.htm
So one can hardly argue that Jesus himself or any of his direct disciples thought it was necessary or of any religious significance.

Looking at the timeframe in which it was instituted, in those days, the church had far less scruples and major political ambition. It would seem that -on top of the supposed religious significance- it would be of great value for the church and the clergy to have the dirt on everybody so they could lean on them. And by dressing it up like this, people actually handed it over themselves.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 20, 2011)

All are points worthy of discussion, my fellow posters - but not utterly pertinent to what the OP is about.  

I know that what Bill was trying to say in a general sense, was that when people who are not of his faith take pot-shots at it then it irks him.  I also know that the counterpoint being made is that the Catholic Church (or "Papist Traitors" as they are known in my monarchist house ) has not been shy about putting it's views forward too.

But the core point of the OP was that a false story was made about a phone app and then that false story was turned into a stick to bear the Catholic church with.  That's why, despite my views on all churches, I was sympathetic to Bill's irritation - I'd feel the same in his shoes.

What I'm blundering at is trying to say, I suppose, is that these issues that have been raised 'on the side', so to speak, could very well be aired and elaborated on in threads of their own.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> All are points worthy of discussion, my fellow posters - but not utterly pertinent to what the OP is about.
> 
> I know that what Bill was trying to say in a general sense, was that when people who are not of his faith take pot-shots at it then it irks him.  I also know that the counterpoint being made is that the Catholic Church (or &quot;Papist Traitors&quot; as they are known in my monarchist house ) has not been shy about putting it's views forward too.
> 
> ...


 
Fair point Mark! The point that I'm trying to get at it, is that there are many more stories to use as a stick to beat the Catholic church with. In fact, if I believed that Satan himself existed in the anthropological sense believed by catholics, then he would be waving with his good friend Ratzinger on the balcony over St. Peter's square.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 20, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> Fair point Mark! The point that I'm trying to get at it, is that there are many more stories to use as a stick to beat the Catholic church with. In fact, if I believed that Satan himself existed in the anthropological sense believed by catholics, then he would be waving with his good friend Ratzinger on the balcony over St. Peter's square.


 
I meant anthropomorphical not anthropological....sorry!


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2011)

Sorry I've missed out on the anger.

To restate in a simpler manner; in my opinion, anything which the Catholic Church does which affects people outside the Church are fair targets of criticism.  I think I said that in my initial post; somehow that got ignored.  As I said, I have no beef with anyone, Catholic or not, who has comments to make about the bad things which Catholic clergy have done and are accused of covering up.  My ire was directed at those who are not Catholic, yet feel compelled to criticize the dogma of the Catholic Church, and worse, who get it wrong, apparently intentionally, and then hold it up to public ridicule.

With regard to the comments that Catholics feel privileged to comment on public issues such as abortion and other political issues, I have no apology to make.  As a US citizen and a Catholic, I have exactly as much right to criticize our abortion policy as anyone of any faith or no faith at all does.  I am not less a citizen because I am Catholic.  My Catholicism does not give me the right to criticize; my citizenship does.

I agree that the Catholic Church has much to answer for; I am as disappointed and angry with the Church over recent issues as anyone.  However, I have no issue with those who are not Catholic and who are as angry as I am over those crimes.

However, for non-Catholics to criticize the dogma of the church, especially dogma they don't understand and misreport, makes me ticked off.  Thus, my rant.

Catholics do not pray to Mary, we don't engage in idolotry, we don't believe the Pope is infallible, and we don't confess to iPod applications.  If anyone thinks we do, fine.  If they write that in a newspaper article, then not fine.  I got a problem with that.  Do you have a problem with me having a problem with that?


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 21, 2011)

I moved the 'prayer' discussion to a new thread.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=93874
If you want to continue that angle, please do it in that thread.


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