# What do you call a black belt???



## level7 (Nov 29, 2008)

Do you call a black belt, Master < last name > or Mister < last name > ? What's the protocol?


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## 14 Kempo (Nov 29, 2008)

level7 said:


> Do you call a black belt, Master < last name > or Mister < last name > ? What's the protocol?


 
In all styles that I know anything about, which, come to think of it, isn't very many ... there is a big difference between a black belt and a master. I black belt would be called Mister <Last Name> until he reaches the Master level.


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## terryl965 (Nov 29, 2008)

It is Mister or Sir to show the respect but Master is 4th and higher


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## Sukerkin (Nov 29, 2008)

I'm assuming that this is if there is a big disparity in experience (I hesitate to say 'rank')?

Of course, I come from a much more 'informal' background.  When I'm instructing students who have come in from other dojo's, they do on occasion offer me too much 'respect'.  Rather than doing something about it in front of the class, I usually try to get the chance to quietly say something like "It's okay.  He's Sensei {point to my sensei].  My names Mark".


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## Dana (Nov 29, 2008)

Like others noted, Sir, Ma'am, or Mr./Ms. So and So is respectful.  You can also call under 4th dan (depending on the style of TKD) Kyo Sa Nim and 4th-7th (again, depending), Sah Bum Nim, and 8th and 9th (again...), Kwan Jang Nim.  You can call any senior (whether rank or time in) Sun Bae (senior member).  A black belt holder is also a "You Dan Ja." Like folks noted, certain titles are different in different organizations.

Dana


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## SA_BJJ (Nov 29, 2008)

Sir or ma'am work just fine.


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## granfire (Nov 29, 2008)

Sir or Ma'am, Master is a rank, and not every BB has it yet (like me)


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## karatemom (Nov 29, 2008)

Sir or Ma'am when answering to them directly - when referring to them it's Mr or Ms or Master (if applicable) and their last name.


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## CrimsonPhoenix (Nov 29, 2008)

I call my instructors Sir and Ma'am, but if addressing them, it's Mr/Ms and their last name. There are a couple black belts at the Master rank, but they prefer to be called Mr/Ms and their last name. 

On occasion when our Grandmaster visits, one of the black belts will introduce him as Grandmaster and his last name, but after the initial introduction -- unless it's something  like a black belt test -- he also prefers being called by Mr. (last name).


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## level7 (Nov 30, 2008)

I see some black belts have their names embroidered on their belts. Does this indicate they are a master? How can you tell visually if they are a master vs. BB?

Thanks! Great stuff.


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## myusername (Nov 30, 2008)

When I was doing TKD we were told that everyone a rank above you is Mister/Miss (lastname). The instructor (5th Dan) and above were Master (last name). To be completely honest I didn't like this very much. Just a personal thing really but it felt very strange refering to people by their last name when I knew them reasonably well and felt I should be on first name terms. It felt more natural to call the instructor and above by last names but the other students I considered them to be my peers so it just sounded odd in my head. It is a completely persoanl thing and I'm not saying TKD is wrong for doing this. It is just tradition and the fact TKD has a military background.

However my new jujutsu class has none of that across the board. I call my instructors Tony and Pete. I will still address my chief instructor by Mr O'Hagan but that is because apart from the odd one off seminar I don't meet him very much. His blackbelts refer to him as Kevin though. It feels so much more comfortable for me and I don't respect any one any less.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2008)

We're all called by our first names. Both of us, me and the chief instructor lol!


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2008)

In our discipline 4th Dan or higher are addressed as Master, unless instructed by them otherwise..Personally I'm not hung up with titles, I prefer students call me by my first name or Drac...


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## StuartA (Nov 30, 2008)

level7 said:


> I see some black belts have their names embroidered on their belts. Does this indicate they are a master? How can you tell visually if they are a master vs. BB?
> 
> Thanks! Great stuff.


 
A big fat *NO*. Master is indicated by rabnk.. check their belt for the dan grade to see, but remember different systems recognise Master as different levels. WTF @ 4th Dan, but ITF @ 7th dan.

Stuart


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2008)

level7 said:


> I see some black belts have their names embroidered on their belts. Does this indicate they are a master? How can you tell visually if they are a master vs. BB..


 
*NOPE!!!! *I have my name on my belt and I am hardly a Master...


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2008)

I have my name on my belt.....coz I forget who I am, old age you see lol!


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## granfire (Nov 30, 2008)

On the other hand, I think you can call him/her anything you want to, as long as you are prepared to back it up!


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I have my name on my belt.....coz I forget who I am, old age you see lol!


 
Ain't it the truth...


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## IcemanSK (Nov 30, 2008)

level7 said:


> I see some black belts have their names embroidered on their belts. Does this indicate they are a master? How can you tell visually if they are a master vs. BB?
> 
> Thanks! Great stuff.


 

Name on the belt doesn't signify rank. But as Tez & Drac have pointed out, it helps you to remember your name. Here in the US, we're fond of putting stripes on our belts to denote rank. In Korea, this is not done nearly as often.Korean grandmasters often have belts that look like everyone else's. It's usually not easy to tell a master from a BB by looking at their belt. I'd suggest to just treat everyone with respect. That's a guaranteed win-win for everyone.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2008)

Some of students think our chief instructor is a diety though, when he demos a techniques on them they shout out in ectasy 'o o o  g...o...d'. some even call him Jesus Christ, usually with a sharp intake of breath as if they didn't believe it! Some are non believers though they just swear and use rude words. I don't know, you just don't get the students these days do you?


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## Kacey (Nov 30, 2008)

level7 said:


> Do you call a black belt, Master < last name > or Mister < last name > ? What's the protocol?



I call a black belt Mr. / Ms. <surname> - the same way I do any other rank, whether senior or junior, from white belt on up.  Why would I expect students to address me more courteously than I address them?

The only exception is those practitioners VII and VIII Dan (Master) and IX Dan (Grand Master).  Except for opening and closing ceremonies, no other titles are generally used; in opening and closing ceremonies, when students bow to the instructor, Sah Bum nim gae (face the honored instructor, bow) is used up through VI Dan; for VII and VIII Dan, Sah Hyum nim gae (face the honored master instructor, bow); for IX Dan, Sa Song nim gae (face the honored grand master instructor, bow).  We also use Kwan Jang for our grand master, as he is the head of our kwan (family, group, whatever similar term you wish to use).

As has been mentioned in previous threads, Bu Sah Bum nim is a generic term for I-III Dan, but translates directly as assistant instructor.  If a person is the instructor of a class, s/he is addressed as Sah Bum nim - not Bu Sah Bum nim - regardless of rank, because s/he is _the_ instructor.   If the person is an assistant to the instructor, then Bu Sah Bum nim may be used for bowing - but in general, with the exception of opening and closing ceremonies, all students below VII Dan are addressed as Mr. / Ms. <surname>.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 30, 2008)

tez3 said:


> some of students think our chief instructor is a diety though, when he demos a techniques on them they shout out in ectasy 'o o o g...o...d'. Some even call him jesus christ, usually with a sharp intake of breath as if they didn't believe it! Some are non believers though they just swear and use rude words. I don't know, you just don't get the students these days do you?


 
roflklita!


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## level7 (Nov 30, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Name on the belt doesn't signify rank. But as Tez & Drac have pointed out, it helps you to remember your name. Here in the US, we're fond of putting stripes on our belts to denote rank. In Korea, this is not done nearly as often.Korean grandmasters often have belts that look like everyone else's. It's usually not easy to tell a master from a BB by looking at their belt. I'd suggest to just treat everyone with respect. That's a guaranteed win-win for everyone.




Of course I treat everyone with respect. I just want to make sure I'm not insulting anyone by referring to them improperly.


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## karatemom (Nov 30, 2008)

you can't go wrong with Sir or Ma'am.

Funny story about names on the black belts - one time I was holding boards for rank testing for the kids and when the judge asked this one kid his name he had to look at his belt - he was probably about 10 - too cute! can you imagine being so nervous you forgot your name?!


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## IcemanSK (Nov 30, 2008)

level7 said:


> Of course I treat everyone with respect. I just want to make sure I'm not insulting anyone by referring to them improperly.


 
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you wouldn't treat everyone with respect. Just to say that if people in MA generally appreciate the act of respect, even if you don't get their title correct.

When folks call me master, I generally correct them as I have a few more years for that. I have also referred to a few folks on MT as master when I know they are of that rank/title. Most of them correct me as they prefer to be less formal on these boards. I would not presume so if we were in uniform on the mat, however.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2008)

karatemom said:


> you can't go wrong with Sir or Ma'am.
> 
> Funny story about names on the black belts - one time I was holding boards for rank testing for the kids and when the judge asked this one kid his name he had to look at his belt - he was probably about 10 - too cute! *can you imagine being so nervous you forgot your name*?!


 

Oh yes on several of my gradings!! usually after I'd thrown up from nerves lol! And I was in my forties!
When working with Americans I've always noticed that they use sir and ma'am a lot, it's a pleasant custom.


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## phlaw (Nov 30, 2008)

In our TKD school all students are referredto as Mister/Misses (First Name). It has been that way as long as I have been there (14 years).  If we have 2 students with the same name then we will use first and last or sometime Mister/Misses (First Name & Rank).


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2008)

tez3 said:


> some of students think our chief instructor is a diety though, when he demos a techniques on them they shout out in ectasy 'o o o g...o...d'. Some even call him jesus christ, usually with a sharp intake of breath as if they didn't believe it! Some are non believers though they just swear and use rude words. I don't know, you just don't get the students these days do you?


 
lmfao!!!!!!!


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## Father Greek (Nov 30, 2008)

I prefer your Highness or My Lord,, But if they call me Steve that works too!


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## Drac (Nov 30, 2008)

father greek said:


> i prefer your highness or my lord,, but if they call me steve that works too!


 
*lol*


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## Brad Dunne (Nov 30, 2008)

Really don't care what you call me...................................................

Just don't call me LATE FOR SUPPER!................


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## Cirdan (Dec 1, 2008)

I use first name as long as I know them. I will use Sensei when adressing instructors at a camp and for guest instructors even if they are lower belts.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 1, 2008)

after thinking about this thread for I while I realised that I call most black belts by their first name.  A few I will address with a title but those few have been around a long, long time and are master rank or GM's.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 1, 2008)

In class, it's sir or ma'am.  Outside of class, unless I know them personally, it's still sir or ma'am, especially if they're my senior in age.

If I know them, though, outside of class, I'll just use their name.


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## Sylo (Dec 1, 2008)

A black belt to me..

is a symbol and nothing more..

but its a symbol representing ones above and beyond attititude when participating in martial arts. It isn't just attending class for the required time... 

its a collective of things. Ranging from time, skill, effort, motivation, maturity. When you receive your blackbelt there should be a noticable difference in you, and everything about you.


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## Drac (Dec 1, 2008)

Sylo said:


> When you receive your blackbelt there should be a noticable difference in you, and everything about you.


 
Im in trouble then...I am basically the same person I was BEFORE donning getting my black belt..I am passionate about training and committed to being the best teacher I can be, but still finding time to crack a joke while teaching to make the whole experience more enjoyable for the students...


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## dancingalone (Dec 1, 2008)

I agree, Drac.  My teacher and I try to screen people BEFORE they start learning with us.  That way we can focus on the technical aspects of the martial art rather than having to teach morals or build character.  Jutsu vs. Do.  We do not wish to teach a "Do".


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 1, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> I agree, Drac. My teacher and I try to screen people BEFORE they start learning with us. That way we can focus on the technical aspects of the martial art rather than having to teach morals or build character. Jutsu vs. Do. We do not wish to teach a "Do".


 That is ridiculous...A huge part of the martial arts revolves around morals and character...


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## dancingalone (Dec 1, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> That is ridiculous...A huge part of the martial arts revolves around morals and character...



Really?  It may in the MA you have been exposed to.  A few old systems still focus exclusively on the fighting aspects.  They're certainly not as popular or easy to find however.

My teacher would smile at your comment and say "Get back to work".


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 1, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> Really? It may in the MA you have been exposed to. A few old systems still focus exclusively on the fighting aspects. They're certainly not as popular or easy to find however.
> 
> My teacher would smile at your comment and say "Get back to work".


 Well that is good for your "teacher", bad for the art.  What ever happened to integrity...what ever happened to morality...why are people only concerned with fighting?  MA should be used for nothing more than self-defense (or tournament/exhibition).


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## dancingalone (Dec 1, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> Well that is good for your "teacher", bad for the art.  What ever happened to integrity...what ever happened to morality...why are people only concerned with fighting?  MA should be used for nothing more than self-defense (or tournament/exhibition).



SA_BJJ, you're being rather presumptuous.  You don't even know what MA we practice.  For all you know, I could be doing medieval broadsword which decidedly has no moral component to it.  No offense intended,but you're clearing sounding off on something you have no depth in.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 1, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> SA_BJJ, you're being rather presumptuous. You don't even know what MA we practice. For all you know, I could be doing medieval broadsword which decidedly has no moral component to it. No offense intended,but you're clearing sounding off on something you have no depth in.


 No offense taken, but youre posting in a TKD forum so why would you be talking about midevil broadsword????


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## dancingalone (Dec 1, 2008)

Lots of people from other arts participate in this forum.  It's one of the most active on MT and frequently people get their first MA exposure from TKD.  Looks like you do BJJ by your handle.  Plenty of karate, kenpo, or kung fu people also enjoy the TKD board.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 1, 2008)

No worries brother...I suppose we will agree to disagree...


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 1, 2008)

If this is referring to TKD, then yes, more of the Do should be taught...if we're not talking about TKD, then this should be moved to the general arts forum and discussed there so there is no confusion.

If an instructor is teaching Tae Kwon Do or Taekwon Do, then it should be a given that the Do is taught.  

It's cool if you want to screen all of your students before you teach them...in fact, that's a rather good idea.  But, morals can be taught without directly teaching them in the arts.  Any good instructor should be able to instill good values into most of his/her students.  Sure, there will be the occasional "bad apple", but overall, the Do is 1/3 of the art.

Just out of curiosity, what art are you referring to, dancingalone?

(By the way, the name of the thread is "What do you call a black belt?...we should probably focus on getting back on topic and discussing this in a seperate thread)


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## Manny (Dec 1, 2008)

Respect, all is respect. I inside and outside call my sambunim Professor Carrillo. He always call me Mr.Ma..... (my last name), I always call the kids no matter of age Mr.Robert, or Mr.Edwing,or Miss Laura lways the Mister o Miss befoe his/her name... why? quite simple I want order and respect for me so I need to show it firsth.

The Kids alwass efer to me as Don Manuel, Don is much respectfully than Mister in my country nd we use Don for old people for example I'm Mr.Manuel my father si Don Manuel, don't know if you get it.

Well, giving I'm the oldest practicioner in the dojan my sambuim call me Don Manuel, the moms of the kids call Don Manuel, the kids call me Don Manuel so I call them in the same maner so the kids are Mister Ramirez for example and the moms are Mrs.Ramirez.

I know of many MA teachers that even use nicks for his students and that's not good, cause the kids don't behave with respect inside and outside the dojan.

Manny


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 1, 2008)

Manny said:


> Respect, all is respect. I inside and outside call my sambunim Professor Carrillo. He always call me Mr.Ma..... (my last name), I always call the kids no matter of age Mr.Robert, or Mr.Edwing,or Miss Laura lways the Mister o Miss befoe his/her name... why? quite simple I want order and respect for me so I need to show it firsth.
> 
> The Kids alwass efer to me as Don Manuel, Don is much respectfully than Mister in my country nd we use Don for old people for example I'm Mr.Manuel my father si Don Manuel, don't know if you get it.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with this and have seen it happen.  Kids that get nicknames from their instructors start having a laid back attitude during class and get the wrong idea from their instruction.

It's good to have a friendly attitude toward your instructor *off the matt, *but when you're in class or on the matt, it should be all business.


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## jks9199 (Dec 1, 2008)

Sylo said:


> A black belt to me..
> 
> is a symbol and nothing more..
> 
> ...





Drac said:


> Im in trouble then...I am basically the same person I was BEFORE donning getting my black belt..I am passionate about training and committed to being the best teacher I can be, but still finding time to crack a joke while teaching to make the whole experience more enjoyable for the students...





dancingalone said:


> I agree, Drac.  My teacher and I try to screen people BEFORE they start learning with us.  That way we can focus on the technical aspects of the martial art rather than having to teach morals or build character.  Jutsu vs. Do.  We do not wish to teach a "Do".



You should be the same person, knowing almost exactly the same information, the day after the promotion as the day before.  Promotion to black belt, like an academic degree, recognizes what you've achieved and learned; it doesn't confer special abilities, wisdom, or powers, as much as we might wish it does.

Returning to topic... Address a black belt respectfully.  In some systems, there are specific titles at specific levels.  Most TKD falls into that category... but you're always safe with "Mister" or equivalent address, just like you'd use on meeting someone professionally.  In my style, we often simply address each other, whatever the level, by first name...  but you can still be respectful about doing that!  You can also follow the lead of the students above you; sharing etiquette tips like this with beginners is one of the typical tasks of the senior students in the school.


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## jks9199 (Dec 1, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> That is ridiculous...A huge part of the martial arts revolves around morals and character...





SA_BJJ said:


> Well that is good for your "teacher", bad for the art.  What ever happened to integrity...what ever happened to morality...why are people only concerned with fighting?  MA should be used for nothing more than self-defense (or tournament/exhibition).



Do you realize how much of a circle you seem to be talking in?

I don't choose to teach students of questionable integrity.  It's not my job to mold their personality or morality; I'm not a preacher or their parent.  If they haven't been taught to be "good people" before they walk into the school -- it's too late.  

Even with the kids I teach -- I simply provide an example for them, and help them develop some self discipline.  My limited class time isn't going to reshape their personality or give them morals that their parents aren't reinforcing.


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## Drac (Dec 1, 2008)

Father Greek said:


> I prefer your Highness or My Lord,, But if they call me Steve that works too!


 
That aint bad...Its the burning insense and chanting that's the pain...


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## Sylo (Dec 1, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> You should be the same person, knowing almost exactly the same information, the day after the promotion as the day before. Promotion to black belt, like an academic degree, recognizes what you've achieved and learned; it doesn't confer special abilities, wisdom, or powers, as much as we might wish it does.
> 
> Returning to topic... Address a black belt respectfully. In some systems, there are specific titles at specific levels. Most TKD falls into that category... but you're always safe with "Mister" or equivalent address, just like you'd use on meeting someone professionally. In my style, we often simply address each other, whatever the level, by first name... but you can still be respectful about doing that! You can also follow the lead of the students above you; sharing etiquette tips like this with beginners is one of the typical tasks of the senior students in the school.


 

Sorry, but personal experiences forces me to disagree with this,.
I know plenty of people who ARE not the same person they used to be. Maybe the core doesn't change. But, I should be stronger, more aware, more disciplined, and overall more refined as a fighter in the very least. While the image on the outside may not have changed.. I am not the same person I was when I entered the doors on my first day. It might vary from person to person exactly how they change.. but they do change. I'm not even black belt, and I know that I will have developed exponentially by the time I get there. I mean, if the belt doesn't mean anything get rid of it. I know alot of schools have adopted this way of thinking.. and I don't see anything wrong with it. If its just this worthless rank that means absolutely nothing.. why does it exist?

I do agree that having a black belt doesn't give me any special powers or abilities. But it still shouldn't be something everybody and their cousin/sister/brother has. Not everyone has or wants to give that amount of dedication and effort to something.


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## jks9199 (Dec 1, 2008)

Sylo said:


> Sorry, but personal experiences forces me to disagree with this,.
> I know plenty of people who ARE not the same person they used to be. Maybe the core doesn't change. But, I should be stronger, more aware, more disciplined, and overall more refined as a fighter in the very least. While the image on the outside may not have changed.. I am not the same person I was when I entered the doors on my first day. It might vary from person to person exactly how they change.. but they do change. I'm not even black belt, and I know that I will have developed exponentially by the time I get there. I mean, if the belt doesn't mean anything get rid of it. I know alot of schools have adopted this way of thinking.. and I don't see anything wrong with it. If its just this worthless rank that means absolutely nothing.. why does it exist?
> 
> I do agree that having a black belt doesn't give me any special powers or abilities. But it still shouldn't be something everybody and their cousin/sister/brother has. Not everyone has or wants to give that amount of dedication and effort to something.


But that change didn't happen in a single day or test.  It began by selecting a school where the teachers embodied characteristics you subconsciously emulated.  It continued as you chose each day to return to class, to train, to confront your fears, and so on.  It moved forward as you took those lessons out of the dojo and into the world...

Finally, after your years of training and accepting and emulating and just plain copying the teacher, you tested for black belt.  But on that day, you didn't really know anything more than the day before.  You may have confronted something in yourself during the process of testing, and you may have learned something about yourself -- but you didn't become a new person as a result of that test.  You changed your personality over the years of training that led you to the test.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 1, 2008)

My grandmaster is very formal. He asks us to call him GM Sell. Yet, at the same time, he always calls me Mr. Jensen. Never by my 1st name. I'd be worried something was wrong if he called me Tom. And my head would fall off my shoulders if he said, "you can call me Ed."


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 1, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But that change didn't happen in a single day or test. It began by selecting a school where the teachers embodied characteristics you subconsciously emulated. It continued as you chose each day to return to class, to train, to confront your fears, and so on. It moved forward as you took those lessons out of the dojo and into the world...
> 
> Finally, after your years of training and accepting and emulating and just plain copying the teacher, you tested for black belt. But on that day, you didn't really know anything more than the day before. You may have confronted something in yourself during the process of testing, and you may have learned something about yourself -- but you didn't become a new person as a result of that test. You changed your personality over the years of training that led you to the test.


 
First off, I don't think that Sylo was actually saying that you just change in one day, or when the belt is handed to you.  It does happen over time.

But, I will say this.  The day I tested for my 1st degree is the day that I became a man.  I changed in that single day.  The day before the test, sure, I was determined, but during the test, I unleashed something inside me that made me *earn* the rank of 1st degree.

Not everyone has the same experience as I did.  But I can assure you that the day after the test, I was a far different person than I was 2 days prior.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 2, 2008)

level7 said:


> Do you call a black belt, Master < last name > or Mister < last name > ? What's the protocol?


Call me Lord High General of the Dojang, a peerless paragon of prowess!  Failure to do so will result in being issued a shiny new white belt after completing the mandatory 200 pushups.

Sorry, couldn't resist.  The question has been answered good and well by others here.  In Kukkiwon taekwondo, master is (I believe) 5th dan and up, though 4th dan practitioners may sign dan certs.  I suppose that 4th dan can be considered a master instructor.  

Personally, mister is just fine for me.  I don't need fancy titles or stripes on my belt.  But Mister is fine: it maintains a professional decorum.

Daniel


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## TKDHermit (Dec 7, 2008)

[first name]Sir or [first name]ma'am.


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 18, 2008)

Formal title depends on what Dan you are. When answering a question to a higher rank, it is Sir or Ma'am. When referring to them in the Dojang or on the mat, it is always by their title. 

1st Dan- Sen Sei Nim
2nd Dan- Bu Kyo Nim
3rd Dan- Kyo Sa Nim
4th Dan- Bu Sah Bu Min
5th-8th Dan- Sah Bu Nim
9th Dan- Kwang Ja Nim


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## KELLYG (Dec 18, 2008)

Every belt young and old is referred to as Mr. Ms. and first name till they reach 4th Dan then its Master and Last name.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 18, 2008)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Formal title depends on what Dan you are. When answering a question to a higher rank, it is Sir or Ma'am. When referring to them in the Dojang or on the mat, it is always by their title.
> 
> 1st Dan- Sen Sei Nim
> 2nd Dan- Bu Kyo Nim
> ...


While I'm not familiar with all of these titles, the first dan of senseinim is quite remeniscent of sensei.  Kyosanim is my official title as a kumdo instructor, but so far as I know, it simply means instructor.  Sabumnim is generally equated to master, so 5th and up is appropriate.  Kwanjangnim literally means head of school to my knowledge, and is generally equated with a school owner or the founder of a style; I've never heard it associated with 9th dan in the sense of being an official 9th dan title, but I suppose that it makes sense, as all the ninth dans I have ever met are school owners.

Daniel


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 18, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> While I'm not familiar with all of these titles, the first dan of senseinim is quite remeniscent of sensei.  Kyosanim is my official title as a kumdo instructor, but so far as I know, it simply means instructor.  Sabumnim is generally equated to master, so 5th and up is appropriate.  Kwanjangnim literally means head of school to my knowledge, and is generally equated with a school owner or the founder of a style; I've never heard it associated with 9th dan in the sense of being an official 9th dan title, but I suppose that it makes sense, as all the ninth dans I have ever met are school owners.
> 
> Daniel




Well, we only have one 9th Dan in our school, and he is the GM, but we refer to him by Kwan Jang Nim. I'm not sure where they got the titles from but I do remember that Kyo and Bu Kyo are the instructor titles (Bu Kyo being junior instructor) from my days in the ITF school. Sen Sei Nim is the first time I have ever heard the use of the title from a 1st Dan BB in TKD of any form.


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## terryl965 (Dec 18, 2008)

My students call me Sir or Sabanim, I do not like the term Master or GrandMaster but will use it when referring to my elders. Which by the way are only because of stripe not because of years.:asian:


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 18, 2008)

Kids call me, "Mr Nore." Adults call me, "Gord." I call my teachers, "Tony" and "John." We refer to each other as, "Mr" or "Ms" when the kids are present. The term, "Sensei," pops up only in reference to the two head instructors -- seldom as a term of address. Any visiting instructor would automatically be addressed more formally according to rank and style, unless s/he requests otherwise.

We do not use term of address, "Sensei," in strict Japanese fashion. Thus, "Sensei Foster," as opposed to "Foster, Sensei." We're not formal, but we are courteous.


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## tellner (Dec 18, 2008)

Depends. In class I usually call him "Guru". Out of class or introducing him to others it's "Steve". 

When we were teaching we went by our first names. 

Other teachers are usually referred to by name. If they want to be referred to by some other title I tend to oblige out of courtesy. I say "tend to" because some people abuse it. Anyone who requires an ornate show of groveling respect, anyone with no gray in his beard who demands to be called "Master" or anyone at any age who wants to be called "Grand Master" will have to look somewhere else. I have enough trouble keeping a straight face.


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