# Attention Male USAT athletes :Dont bother



## msmitht (Oct 21, 2010)

So the word is that The USAT has unofficially selected the 2 male athletes that will be attending the next Olympic games. Guess who they will be? That's right : Mark and Steve Lopez. 
I spent a week with athletes at OTC for the pan am team trials and the Rocky mountain open. The word going round the stands/locker rooms/living quarters is that Mark will drop to featherweight and our golden boy will hopefully be golden again (unless he meets Arron Cook). The coaching staff did not deny this when asked. They just said "we'll see, but most likely...". 
My response:"I believe that there are still team trials to consider, unless they are planning another fiasco like what happened in the Nia/Dianna fight off." I got no reply. 
I am not saying that Mark does not deserve to go. I just think that he should stay in his weight class and let someone else have a chance.
Any thoughts?


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2010)

I believe Lamden should have a shot at it, he has certainly paid his due's over the years, also I was under the impression Mark was retiring because ne wanted to settle down with his new wife? I know USAT wants them and Dianna back, but we have better choices at the time in our sport. Not taking anything away from anybody just does not seem fair and if this is true Team Trails mean absolutely nothing so why go.


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## Gorilla (Oct 21, 2010)

The rules state that he can pick the division if he likes.  I don't have a problem with that.  They still have to fight!!!  It will be much harder to fix these fights with the EBP's!!! Not impossible just harder!!!  I *don't* think that Mark is a lock in Feather!!!! There is some new blood in light/welter that have styles that will give Steven a problem.  One of the fighters is very similar to Aaron Cook!!!

I am going to make predictions closer to the trails.


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## Gorilla (Oct 21, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I believe Lamden should have a shot at it, he has certainly paid his due's over the years, also I was under the impression Mark was retiring because ne wanted to settle down with his new wife? I know USAT wants them and Dianna back, but we have better choices at the time in our sport. Not taking anything away from anybody just does not seem fair and if this is true Team Trails mean absolutely nothing so why go.




They did not pick Lambdin's division!!!!!  He would be a great representative in the Heavyweight Division!!!  I don't think that he would do well in Light/Welter
to much weight to cut!!!!


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## d1jinx (Oct 22, 2010)

NOTE TO SELF:

Knock them out, force them try to create another excuse to say you lost.


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## granfire (Oct 23, 2010)

LOL, think that works?


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## terryl965 (Oct 24, 2010)

Yesterday at the tournament we instructors was talking about this very thing and everybody agreed that the system has to amny flaws and needs to be replace. Nobody had any better ideals to help make it better but they all agread it needed to be changed for the sport. 

I have always believe in a fair tournament record thoughout a two year period based on points from certain events that they must compete in. They must compete or recieve negative points because of pulling out, now if they are injured and I mean injured not pretending that that will not be held against them. But even that can have too many varibles in it, so it need to be a true fight off with the top five in each wieght class and then have those winners records pulled against the other countries athletes from those wieght classes to see who has the best chances for victory.

At anyrate it is what it is a who you know and what side of the fence will you keep your athlete on.


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## StudentCarl (Oct 25, 2010)

I don't think there's a sport in the world where cronyism is not an issue, and if there is I'm sure there's still someone complaining about it. Even if we go to full electronic scoring (with electronic headgear and gloves) and base only on a fight-off, there would still be issues. Committed athletes can't get turned away by that crap.

I disagree with the "don't bother" comment. If you're a committed athlete you should always work to be your best; strive to be the athlete they cannot ignore without claims of bias. Work to be the best in your dojang, your state, your nation, the world, or what ever level you are competitive in. Is your life somehow diminished if you don't compete as an olympian?

The reality is that we get fewer olympic slots than we have qualified people. If you're world champion and you don't get the slot, it's a lick on USAT, not on you. Yes, a perfect system would be nice, but there would still be complaints. I'd rather compete than go home and suck my thumb.

As far as the OP goes, I hope people aren't making decisions based on rumors without knowing the source. Without the source, how can we separate opinion from authority? 

I'm proud of our athletes and am always in awe when seeing our national and international level people compete.


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## terryl965 (Oct 25, 2010)

I always back who ever we send they are the US pics. but we need anew system for picking the team. Bottom line is the way it is done now is just not right, period. I tell my son Zachary to train compete and let whatever happens happen, we have other avenues if need be with other counties but seriously his shots will be 2016 and 2020 so he has time for those slots to open up and if he keeps winning he will open people eyes and the door will open. I do not believe you need to be in certain people camps to make it, but instead just train.


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## Gorilla (Oct 25, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> I don't think there's a sport in the world where cronyism is not an issue, and if there is I'm sure there's still someone complaining about it. Even if we go to full electronic scoring (with electronic headgear and gloves) and base only on a fight-off, there would still be issues. Committed athletes can't get turned away by that crap.
> 
> I disagree with the "don't bother" comment. If you're a committed athlete you should always work to be your best; strive to be the athlete they cannot ignore without claims of bias. Work to be the best in your dojang, your state, your nation, the world, or what ever level you are competitive in. Is your life somehow diminished if you don't compete as an olympian?
> 
> ...



The rumor is coming from the Lopez Camp.....They don't want you to bother to fight or train.  They(Lopez's) don't like to fight outside of the World Championships and the Olympics.  They believe that they are the first family of TKD and they should go with out question.  They believe they should be appointed and that we should get in line behind them!!!! 

Steven ventured out of a controlled environment in Mexico(Pro TKD in Mexico) and got knocked out by Aaron Cook!!!  The National Team Coaches like to stack the deck as best they can and that is why they don't fight in events outside of their control!!!!To much chance of getting beat!!!!

With the Electronic Body Protectors it will be harder to stack the deck(Not Impossible).  I think this year we have a much better chance of seeing the Lopez's get beat than we did in 2008 Olympic trials!!!!


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## StudentCarl (Oct 25, 2010)

That is interesting motive to start a rumor. If they are the source then they challenge the integrity of the group they want to choose them.

Suggesting that the team selection is rigged (already done) really means that USAT can only defend their integrity by being completely transparent with all scores and every bit of the selection process done in public and not behind closed doors.

Any less will feed the belief that USAT is headquartered in Texas and loyal to a faction rather than the whole nation. Throwing gas on that fire could undermine USAT as an NGB. This will be interesting to watch.


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## granfire (Oct 25, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> That is interesting motive to start a rumor. If they are the source then they challenge the integrity of the group they want to choose them.
> 
> Suggesting that the team selection is rigged (already done) really means that USAT can only defend their integrity by being completely transparent with all scores and every bit of the selection process done in public and not behind closed doors.
> 
> Any less will feed the belief that USAT is headquartered in Texas and loyal to a faction rather than the whole nation. Throwing gas on that fire could undermine USAT as an NGB. This will be interesting to watch.



You think that is more interesting than the election procedings?
Or personal choices?
Or the rumored transgressions of the illegal kind?


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## ralphmcpherson (Oct 25, 2010)

I just dont understand it. If I was in charge of selecting the Australian tkd team I would want to win at all costs to keep my job safe and the only way to do that would be to pick the athletes that I am the most sure will win. By giving "jobs to the boys" it would only increase the chance I might fail. I cant understand why they would pick people who arent the best. I can understand picking people who have extra experience for the 'big events', this happens in all sports where you want your experienced players out there on the big stage as they have been there before and handle the pressure better. For example, if you were picking a world golf team and at the trials tiger woods had a bad round would you leave him out of the team? I think not. Is this the thinking behind the lopez's supposed intant selection? Im not involved in sport tkd or a sports selector, but reading this thread it just makes no sense why anybody would knowingly not pick the best team.


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## StudentCarl (Oct 26, 2010)

granfire said:


> You think that is more interesting than the election procedings?
> Or personal choices?
> Or the rumored transgressions of the illegal kind?


 
Not more interesting but more visible, as olympic related news draws a wider audience than other affairs.


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## Gorilla (Oct 26, 2010)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I just dont understand it. If I was in charge of selecting the Australian tkd team I would want to win at all costs to keep my job safe and the only way to do that would be to pick the athletes that I am the most sure will win. By giving "jobs to the boys" it would only increase the chance I might fail. I cant understand why they would pick people who arent the best. I can understand picking people who have extra experience for the 'big events', this happens in all sports where you want your experienced players out there on the big stage as they have been there before and handle the pressure better. For example, if you were picking a world golf team and at the trials tiger woods had a bad round would you leave him out of the team? I think not. Is this the thinking behind the lopez's supposed intant selection? Im not involved in sport tkd or a sports selector, but reading this thread it just makes no sense why anybody would knowingly not pick the best team.



It is not the matter of who makes the team that I have a probelm with!!!

It is how they stack the deck! If the Lopez's are the best let them fight for it on an even playing field!  

Dianne Lopez was not the best in her division Nia Abdallah was clearly better but that deck was stacked!!!!


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## terryl965 (Oct 26, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> It is not the matter of who makes the team that I have a probelm with!!!
> 
> It is how they stack the deck! If the Lopez's are the best let them fight for it on an even playing field!
> 
> Dianne Lopez was not the best in her division Nia Abdallah was clearly better but that deck was stacked!!!!


 

I agree if you are the best fight the best and make it a level playinmg field.


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## texkwondo (Nov 9, 2010)

I really don't know where some of this nonsense comes from, as far as Lopez hate goes.  I used to think the Lopez team sucked too.  But that was 8 years ago when I was a blue belt and didn't know anything about Taekwondo and believed every word of propaganda that came out of my Korean master's mouth.  

Are they dishonorable people?  Certainly.  Do they play cronyism to their favor?  Absolutely.  Are they the best?  Yes.  There is really no question to that one.  Thoughts to the contrary I can only assume come from some irrational hatred.  I hear a lot of hype about Vladmir and Aaron Cook.  Who are these people and what have they done that is so great?  

Tell me, were you there at 2009 US National team trials?  I sure as heck was.  And if you can watch the final two minutes of the last match between Vlad and Mark, see Vlad completely zombie out and take punches to the chest while staring blankly into the distance, and still tell me "Vlad got cheated by bad scoring", then I really don't know what to tell you.  This literally happened.  

Aaron Cook's claim to fame is a fluke knockout of Steven Lopez.  I really can not be the only person who watch everything that happened before the knockout.  Cook was probably having his worst fight in 2 years up until that point.  Then after trying the same falling double half a dozen times, he finally got lucky and landed one.  

Diana is a different story.  Nia honestly should have won that fight.  Not because, as I keep hearing claimed, that Nia was the obvious victor who clearly dominated her.  But because Diana should have taken penalties for falling down too often.  Neither one of them landed anything at all.

On a side note to the Nia vs Diana.  Where were all these points Nia landed?  I didn't see them.  Im sure this is related to the complaints about the LaJust body protectors.  Its my personal opinion that people complain about these because they have been throwing p*ss-poor technique all these years and getting awarded points for stuff that should have never scored in the first place.  Now that more accurate scoring methods are in use, and they aren't getting the free points for hip and butt kicks they got in the past, its time to complain how unfair it is.  This also explains the Nia vs Diana fight, were people are trying to say the stuff Nia was trowing should have been awarded with points.  I don't think so.

On to the issue of Mark vs Chris Martinez in the 2008 Olympic team trials.  This is another ridiculous claim I keep hearing that Chris somehow threw the fight.  Did you watch the fight?  2 out of the 3 points Mark scored were when he took advantage of Chris distracting himself by tugging on the back of his uniform.  The same thing that nearly cost in in the 2009 team trials qualifier in his match against Terrence Jennings.  Unless you are making the even more absurd claim that Chris purposely went down 5-0 only to make that spectacular comeback in the last 10 seconds.  

They didn't pick Lambdin's division because nobody in Lambdin's division has done anything.  When is the last time Lambdin won a world championship?  Pan Am games?  World Cup?

So you guys keep talking about your level playing field and all that.  Maybe if you keep training hard you will one day realize that the Lopez guys keep winning because they are honestly a level above most everyone else.  You keep up that pipe-dream that one of your underdog heros will win it all one of these days when the judging is "fair".


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## terryl965 (Nov 9, 2010)

texkwondo it is nice to see someone being bias about this converstation, to bad it is not you. I find it funny that people sign on and give no personal info. so people can know who they are talking to. Let me ask you this are you in Sugarland or Houston, which camp are you out of? I only ask because I do not see things they way you do, Mark is a great sparrer not fighter we do not fight we spar. Dianna I love and admire her and she is the nicest person in the world, she has always been respectful to all my players at every event. Jean has help coachmy sons a time or two at different events in the past.

I see the Lopez as a great group of people but I also see them getting some favorite things thrown at them, does it brother me no not really but in the sake of fair play we all should be on equal ground at any event and let the best person that day win not the best person for that match. I believe a true point system with five great qualifiers will help bring the cream to the top every year and maybe know the USAT is working that way with this new syatem.

Lastly if you do not want people to know you you can PM me your info. I know all the Lopezs and se them on a regular basis.


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## texkwondo (Nov 9, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Let me ask you this are you in Sugarland or Houston, which camp are you out of?



Irrelevant, I do not let my associations influence my objectivity. 



> Mark is a great sparrer not fighter we do not fight we spar.


I don't see why this matters.  You can call it what you will.



> Dianna I love and admire her and she is the nicest person in the world, she has always been respectful to all my players at every event. Jean has help coachmy sons a time or two at different events in the past.


Yes, they are nice if you meet them.  But you have no idea what goes on behind the scenes.  



> I see the Lopez as a great group of people but I also see them getting some favorite things thrown at them, does it brother me no not really but in the sake of fair play we all should be on equal ground at any event and let the best person that day win not the best person for that match. I believe a true point system with five great qualifiers will help bring the cream to the top every year and maybe know the USAT is working that way with this new syatem.


What favors are these?  Can you point out some specifics?  I have yet to see these mythical matches were one of the Lopezs stole a win at team trials because of favors.  Its always the same talk about Vlad, and Jason Han before him, and some of the new guys now;  How the system is keeping them down.  But every single time they step in the ring, the Lopezs make them look like complete amateurs.


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## mango.man (Nov 9, 2010)

I look forward to seeing the results this weekend with the Lopez's (and everyone else) fighting with EBPs reducing (not eliminating) judge bias.


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## texkwondo (Nov 9, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I look forward to seeing the results this weekend with the Lopez's (and everyone else) fighting with EBPs reducing (not eliminating) judge bias.



I doubt this weekends results will change anyone's ideas on anything.


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## d1jinx (Nov 9, 2010)

:rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:   :rofl:


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## terryl965 (Nov 9, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> *Irrelevant, I do not let my associations influence my objectivity. *
> 
> Really than answer my question, who are you
> 
> ...




Well we shall see in a week, remember I like them but I believe it is time for Steven to step down and let the young guns have there shot.


Just for the record you are so on the fence about everything what are you hiding?:erg::rofl:


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## texkwondo (Nov 9, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> [/b]
> 
> Well we shall see in a week, remember I like them but I believe it is time for Steven to step down and let the young guns have there shot.



Again, you can't point me to these fights where either Mark or Steven got an undeserved placement on the US national team.

Sure, there are some fights in the upper levels of the World Championships where we could second guess the judges and point out where it swung in their favor likely without justification.  The most obvious case is Mark's phantom point in the finals of the 2005 world championships.  But unless anyone is claiming Mark paid off some French and Russian judges to accidently push the wrong button, I still don't know what anyone is talking about as far as the level playing field.    

But tell me, why is it time for Steven to step down?  For the novelty?  For the amusement of having new people?  So long as he is still capable of beating everyone else in the US, why stop?  I suppose he will keep being on the national team until he either loses, or decides he doesn't want to compete anymore.  I don't think someone should quit just because a few guys sitting there in the stands have grown bored of seeing him.  Sorry to dissapoint you, but this sport isn't driven by fans.


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## texkwondo (Nov 9, 2010)

> let the masses see you



I am nobody, and you wouldn't know who I was even if I told you.  Again, who I am is just as irrelevant as who you are.  I have no idea who you are, neither do I care.  You seem to keep pressing this point because you really have nowhere else to go.  Unless you can find me some video of Mark or Steven getting his *** kicked at team trials, but he steals a win because of this mythical uneven playing field.  

Tell me.  One match.  Just point out a single match where someone was denied a spot on national team unjustly in favor of Mark or Steven.


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo you are right they have to do everything 10x better than everybody else. They get no cake walk, they compete at all events never getting the bye or anything, they never get that mystery point. Please I am not going to sit here and play your game remember you are nobody your words and I do not need to talk to nobody so when and if you become somebody let me know because my voice is more important to talk to nobody.


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## Master Dan (Nov 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> texkwondo you are right they have to do everything 10x better than everybody else. They get no cake walk, they compete at all events never getting the bye or anything, they never get that mystery point. Please I am not going to sit here and play your game remember you are nobody your words and I do not need to talk to nobody so when and if you become somebody let me know because my voice is more important to talk to nobody.


 

*Whooo Smack Down for texkwondo a voice from the mist texkwondo?*


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## mango.man (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I doubt this weekends results will change anyone's ideas on anything.



I suppose we will find out here in a couple of days.


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> texkwondo you are right they have to do everything 10x better than everybody else. They get no cake walk, they compete at all events never getting the bye or anything, they never get that mystery point. Please I am not going to sit here and play your game remember you are nobody your words and I do not need to talk to nobody so when and if you become somebody let me know because my voice is more important to talk to nobody.



Get over yourself.  You really are not very important.  

You are the one playing games.  I have never seen a fight without a bad call our two.  But you are claiming there is an international conspiracy to always allow the Lopez's to win regardless of what happens in the fight.  Again, please direct me to these fights where a Lopez should have lost but pulled of the win because the judges were in love with them or whatever you are talking about.

You keep talking about these mystery freebies.  Yet when it comes down to specific fights, Mark and Steven were the clear cut winners every time.  Unless you can point out specific instances, rather than vague references, you are just full of it.


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## granfire (Nov 10, 2010)

opcorn::cheers:


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Get over yourself. You really are not very important.
> 
> You are the one playing games. I have never seen a fight without a bad call our two. But you are claiming there is an international conspiracy to always allow the Lopez's to win regardless of what happens in the fight. Again, please direct me to these fights where a Lopez should have lost but pulled of the win because the judges were in love with them or whatever you are talking about.
> 
> You keep talking about these mystery freebies. Yet when it comes down to specific fights, Mark and Steven were the clear cut winners every time. Unless you can point out specific instances, rather than vague references, you are just full of it.


 
Lets see back a few lines ago you even said mark got that mytery point at the end of the match, but that does not count. You said Nia won that match against Diana bu that does not count. I am nobody funny for being a nobody people sure do appreciate my opinions and such but since you are nobody you would never know. I am done with you so go this weekend stand up and cheer for whomever you like. Like I said Vald has come a long way over the last couple of years and so has alot of people lets see how and if the EPB make any difference this year.

All I know is the USAT stack the deck for certain people and have done so for a longtime, I have nothing against the Lopez family like I have said more than once I see them alot. I do know and so do alot of people that certain things never add up to what it should, never have taken anything away from any of them, they have talent never agrued that point what I ahve said and so many others is they seem to get alot of calls there way.

Have a wonderful and fantastic life and try to remember what and when you write something and for the record in my profile it will tell you everything about me. I can talk the talk and walk the walk, been doing this for almost fifty years so I have sen a few things over that time frame.:asian:


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## Gorilla (Nov 10, 2010)

You are somebody to me Terry!!!

Mark and Steven are great fighters but the USAT gives them every advantage.

It is not a grand international conspiracy!  The get every call in their favor in the US.  
They get every advantage to make sure that they don't lose.  I agree that Mark and Steven have not been seriously challenged!  That is about to end!  D. Lopes should have never been in the Olympics.

When Steven got a bad call in the 2008 Olympics his reaction was less than commendable and the reaction of the Team Lead was worse.


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## Master Dan (Nov 10, 2010)

*


texkwondo said:



			Get over yourself. You really are not very important.
		
Click to expand...

*


texkwondo said:


> *You are the one playing games. I have never seen a fight without a bad call our two. But you are claiming there is an international conspiracy to always allow the Lopez's to win regardless of what happens in the fight. Again, please direct me to these fights where a Lopez should have lost but pulled of the win because the judges were in love with them or whatever you are talking about.*
> 
> *You keep talking about these mystery freebies. Yet when it comes down to specific fights, Mark and Steven were the clear cut winners every time. Unless you can point out specific instances, rather than vague references, you are just full of it.*




From the time we were teenager's we were taught by our GM that tournament was never fair bias or mistakes always happen and if you did take 1st place luck had a certain amount to do with it. Best way to win was a knock out no more scores? I can tell you from 40 years of local, regional, state and even the last World event I officated at that favoritism and bias does exist. All of us non Korean judges at a world event witnessed and were told in advance that a Korean team had to win a certain event due to issues realted to funding in the finals we were not allowed to judge and score so we were allowed as agroup to score independantly. The US team cleary won and but was put in 3rd place behind the other teams all of our scores agreed they were 1st and our scores were no different than we had done all day. There were clear and drastic reasons financially why this had to be I don't argue with that. The US team walked out did not even return the next day for awards which is sad and I doubt they will compete again in that venue. I felt bad they took it badly because competing and doing your best should be the first goal and some times we have to learn to be good sportsman and gratious even when it hurts. 

Bad example? same tournament a Korean Master tried to atack the main judge for not giving his team 1st place over another team it was quite a spectical stopped the whole tournament they then decided to award two 1st place awards? the next day two people had to physically restrain him from going after the judge on stage at the awards. 

The Lopez's have talent no doubt but the financial machine to get media coverage which converts to income related to the Olympics and thier marketability as the first family is irresistable like a fly to the bug zaper. Sounds like this has had an effect on who gets a shot at them but beyond that in all the protest of scores a knock should work? unless the a single match does not count and you go by overall record? It will be interesting to see what happens with the upcomming selection process.


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## d1jinx (Nov 10, 2010)

:hmm: what does it mean when someone posts something and the text block is blank????​ 
:idunno: I keep trying to figure out why there are posts that are blank boxes inside this post.....​ 

:duh: oh.... that's the IGNORED feature. :shrug:​ 
opcorn: :cheers:​ 
:flushed:
:highfive:​


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## miguksaram (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I really don't know where some of this nonsense comes from, as far as Lopez hate goes. I used to think the Lopez team sucked too. But that was 8 years ago when I was a blue belt and didn't know anything about Taekwondo and believed every word of propaganda that came out of my Korean master's mouth.


 
So now you are with a non-Korean master and you have chosen to believe a different propoganda?  How long were you with your Korean master and why did you feel he was a liar and horrible instructor?



			
				texkwondo said:
			
		

> Cook was probably having his worst fight in 2 years up until that point.


You are saying Cook had his worst fight in 2 years.  So does this mean that if he was better on his game he wouldn't have been lucky and just beat Steven right away?  Saying he kept trying the same technique and finally got lucky is like saying Pacquiao was throwing that same combo and finally got lucky and knocked out his opponent.


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You are saying Cook had his worst fight in 2 years.  So does this mean that if he was better on his game he wouldn't have been lucky and just beat Steven right away?  Saying he kept trying the same technique and finally got lucky is like saying Pacquiao was throwing that same combo and finally got lucky and knocked out his opponent.



He would have at least been at the same level he had been in previous fights, and not looked quite as bad as he did.

And no, bad analogy.  Pacquiao would likely be throwing a good combo.  Cook's combo was just dumb.  This would be like Pacquiao just spinning around the ring with his eyes closed and his arms out like a helicopter until one accidentally hits someone in the face.


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## miguksaram (Nov 10, 2010)

No they kicked Mandy off the team because she was exposing certain people for being sexual predators.


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## miguksaram (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> He would have at least been at the same level he had been in previous fights, and not looked quite as bad as he did.
> 
> And no, bad analogy. Pacquiao would likely be throwing a good combo. Cook's combo was just dumb. This would be like Pacquiao just spinning around the ring with his eyes closed and his arms out like a helicopter until one accidentally hits someone in the face.


 
Well then Cook at his worse still beat Steven.  What does that say?  

Hmmm...looked dumb but it worked.    So I am still confused...why is it dumb if it worked?  It just wasn't pretty?  More interesting is that Steven saw him executing it several times, and finally fell for it. Are you saying that Steven didn't have enough sense to figure the technique out and finally fell for it?


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

Well first off let me remind you about the Tenets of TKD, I am somebody because I have earned that right base on how long I have been around PERIOD. My rank and tenue out does you so respect should be given no matter what, but than again you are young I would assume so maybe you just do not have any. Next the title of the thread isUSAT male athletes last time I looked Ms. Craig was not a male athlete. I only brought up Diana becaus eyou did, let try to remember that shall we. So if you feel the need tp talk about Ms.Craig please start a new thread.

Last why don't you address some of the other peole comment here, see I believe you do know me and this is just an personal attack because you do not like me. Who cares, certainly not me because like you said you are no-body remember.


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## miguksaram (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Again, I don't care how long you have been doing this, or who you are. It carries no weight in your ridiculous assertions.


 
So now you will not listen to people who have been around in this art much longer than you?  Wow...This sort of answers my first question about your Korean Master.  Apparently he had no knowledge that carried weight in his assertions either.   Tell me when you disagree with your seniors and your instructors do you often tell them this too?


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Well then Cook at his worse still beat Steven.  What does that say?
> 
> Hmmm...looked dumb but it worked.    So I am still confused...why is it dumb if it worked?  It just wasn't pretty?  More interesting is that Steven saw him executing it several times, and finally fell for it. Are you saying that Steven didn't have enough sense to figure the technique out and finally fell for it?



Cook won by fluke knockout when Steven made a very strange ducking motion in a completely weird angle.  It was not a great act of skill.  There is no way you can make the claim that a falling double kick at barely waist level was some kind of brilliant maneuver.  There is no way Cook could have thought ahead of time Steven would lean over that far.  

For example, 2002 Winter Olympics, gold medal in short track speed skating goes to Australia's Steven Bradbury, who advanced past the quarterfinal after a disqualification by another competitor, advanced past the semi when half the field crashed, and took first in the final when everyone ahead of him crashed coming around the final turn.  Yet my father who hates Apollo for some strange reason still claims Bradbury was exhibiting a fantastic display of skill and strategy, by remaining in dead last with no hope of finishing in medal position and waiting for a rare catastrophic crash he could not possibly predict.


----------



## ATC (Nov 10, 2010)

Welcome to MT *texkwondo.* Where debates are and art unto themselves. Great way to start off, I say. Just jump into the deep end. My only request is that this not be your only topic of disscussion.*




*

Heated debates make my work day go much faster.


----------



## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well first off let me remind you about the Tenets of TKD, I am somebody because I have earned that right base on how long I have been around PERIOD. My rank and tenue out does you so respect should be given no matter what, but than again you are young I would assume so maybe you just do not have any. Next the title of the thread isUSAT male athletes last time I looked Ms. Craig was not a male athlete. I only brought up Diana becaus eyou did, let try to remember that shall we. So if you feel the need tp talk about Ms.Craig please start a new thread.
> 
> Last why don't you address some of the other peole comment here, see I believe you do know me and this is just an personal attack because you do not like me. Who cares, certainly not me because like you said you are no-body remember.



Oh gosh, here comes the rank card.  This is not the military, so I have no obligation to respect anyone's "rank".  Its completely irrelevant and has no significance to your argument.  Face facts, when you were patting yourself on the back  counting how many stripes were on your belt, the Lopez's were winning World championships and Olympic gold medals.   

I have never heard of you outside of this message board.  I have never met you.  I have no idea who you are, nor do I really care.  I have nothing against you other than the completely ridiculous ideas you and others have been expressing around here.

Neither do I have a hard-on for the Lopez's.  I personally do not like them at all.  But to say that they only win because the US organization is stacking the deck in their favor, this is just uneducated dribble.  They win because they are competing at a different level than anyone who they have gone up against so far at any national team trials.  To think otherwise is simply a case of you not really being worthy of the prestige and respect you think you have earned.

Who knows, maybe this will be the year when one of them goes down.  Maybe Terrence Jennings will pull off an upset and take out Mark.  Or Maybe Andrew Oh will finally live up to his minor yet still unwarranted hype.  But I can't seriously hold those expectations.


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> So now you will not listen to people who have been around in this art much longer than you?  Wow...This sort of answers my first question about your Korean Master.  Apparently he had no knowledge that carried weight in his assertions either.   Tell me when you disagree with your seniors and your instructors do you often tell them this too?



Why would I continue training with someone whom I thought didn't know what they were talking about?


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

Terry, your argument has been nothing but personal attacks since the beginning.  Right from the start it was, "Who are you, and how do you  compare to me?  Lets pull them out and compare sizes."

All you seem to want to do is talk about how great you are.  Tell me, who are you?  What have you done?  So someone pinned a few stripes on your belt.  Congrats man.  Now tell me what are these accomplishments you keep boasting of?  

Or do you actually want to discuss what is being discussed?  The alleged stacking of the deck in favor of the Lopez's.  I think you are hiding behind your rank because your real argument isn't actually going anywhere and has no substance.


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Mark and Steven are great fighters but the USAT gives them every advantage.



Such as?

This is the point I am trying to get across.  Everyone can keep talking about these vague notions of USAT giving them advantages, yet nobody can point out any specifics.  Please, point me to the matches.  Which ones?


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

Lets see I have only been in the Arts for 48 years way before any of the Lopezs was born? Funny Jean and all of them giv eme respect maybe just because I have earned it. I was around when the USTU was their and now they are gone. I will most likely still be here when the USAT goes under, who knows now a days. One thing I do know is you have no Martial Spirit what so ever and that is fine but to come in blazing like you know everything is just plan stupid inmy eyes. What have I done nothing but train for a lifetime run a successful school and produce winners. Next to that I am a nobody, but those that do know me know where and who I have trained with over the years. 

I watched the Lopezs come up and have been a fan of theirs for years, like I said thay get favors most elites do. I and everyone who really understand how the USAT game is played knows. What I see from you is someone that lacks the true meaning of TKD. I hope you will find a place for all that bent up anger and find everlasting enlightment.
:asian::asian::asian::asian::asian::asian::asian:


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Terry, your argument has been nothing but personal attacks since the beginning. Right from the start it was, "Who are you, and how do you compare to me? Lets pull them out and compare sizes."
> 
> All you seem to want to do is talk about how great you are. Tell me, who are you? What have you done? So someone pinned a few stripes on your belt. Congrats man. Now tell me what are these accomplishments you keep boasting of?
> 
> Or do you actually want to discuss what is being discussed? The alleged stacking of the deck in favor of the Lopez's. I think you are hiding behind your rank because your real argument isn't actually going anywhere and has no substance.


 
Never once did I say I was great but since you did (Thank you), also I do not need to compare anything they belong to my wife and only her but once again (Thankyou). I believe you live in a small world away from what is reality, but that is just my opinion so please do not tell me I am nuts 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




, you see we all have opinions and that is what make this place go round and round so I enjoy a heated battle every once in a while, so it has been fun. Lets just say you and I do not agree on what has happen over the last few years.:asian:


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Lets see I have only been in the Arts for 48 years way before any of the Lopezs was born? Funny Jean and all of them giv eme respect maybe just because I have earned it. I was around when the USTU was their and now they are gone. I will most likely still be here when the USAT goes under, who knows now a days. One thing I do know is you have no Martial Spirit what so ever and that is fine but to come in blazing like you know everything is just plan stupid inmy eyes. What have I done nothing but train for a lifetime run a successful school and produce winners. Next to that I am a nobody, but those that do know me know where and who I have trained with over the years.
> 
> I watched the Lopezs come up and have been a fan of theirs for years, like I said thay get favors most elites do. I and everyone who really understand how the USAT game is played knows. What I see from you is someone that lacks the true meaning of TKD. I hope you will find a place for all that bent up anger and find everlasting enlightment.
> :asian::asian::asian::asian::asian::asian::asian:



All that talk and still no evidence to back up your claims.  When did these matches happen that show the Lopez's getting an undeserved placement on national team?  You guys keep making these assertions, and I have heard them for years.  You can't go to a competition anywhere without overhearing someone talking about how the Lopez's are getting a free ride.  I am becoming quite annoyed with it.  

Your personal credentials have no weight in your argument.  I don't know why you don't understand that.  Please, just point out the specifics of these freebies the Lopez's keep getting from the USAT.


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## Master Dan (Nov 10, 2010)

ATC said:


> Welcome to MT *texkwondo.* Where debates are and art unto themselves. Great way to start off, I say. Just jump into the deep end. My only request is that this not be your only topic of disscussion.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> All that talk and still no evidence to back up your claims. When did these matches happen that show the Lopez's getting an undeserved placement on national team? You guys keep making these assertions, and I have heard them for years. You can't go to a competition anywhere without overhearing someone talking about how the Lopez's are getting a free ride. I am becoming quite annoyed with it.
> 
> Your personal credentials have no weight in your argument. I don't know why you don't understand that. Please, just point out the specifics of these freebies the Lopez's keep getting from the USAT.


 

Wow you are becoming annoyed with it, now that is a shame do you also stay a wake at night thinking how you can stop people from having there opinion? My personal credentials have alot to do with it maybe just maybe I can see what you cannot. Also like I have said alot in here all elites get calls some other will not so there, agrue that point? Nobody has ever been giving anything everybody has always earned everything. 

Like I said you win everybody is wrong your presence here have changed my mind I am forever in your debt. let me know how I can ever repay you for all the knowledge you have given me over the last two pages.


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## texkwondo (Nov 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Wow you are becoming annoyed with it, now that is a shame do you also stay a wake at night thinking how you can stop people from having there opinion? My personal credentials have alot to do with it maybe just maybe I can see what you cannot. Also like I have said alot in here all elites get calls some other will not so there, agrue that point? Nobody has ever been giving anything everybody has always earned everything.
> 
> Like I said you win everybody is wrong your presence here have changed my mind I am forever in your debt. let me know how I can ever repay you for all the knowledge you have given me over the last two pages.



You still got nothing to back up your claims.


----------



## Gorilla (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Such as?
> 
> This is the point I am trying to get across.  Everyone can keep talking about these vague notions of USAT giving them advantages, yet nobody can point out any specifics.  Please, point me to the matches.  Which ones?



Many of Steven's fights with Rufus Hamon had questionable Kyungo's which interrupted the flow of the matches.

Mark's fight with Sokolov in the world team trials was marred with kyungo's for kicking low when Mark was jumping to avoid being hit.  Sokolov won the US Open beating Juan Sanchez from Puerto Pico.  He also beat the World Silver Medalist from Canada.  He got more Kyungo's in 2 minutes fighting Mark than he got in 6 fights at the US Open.

By the way Mark was publicized by the USAT as going to fight @ the 2010 US Open.  It opens the question why didn't he fight.  I would say fear of losing in a very strong lightweight field.

Many of Mark's fights with Jason Han were very questionable.    

When you have IR's from other countries they don't get the same kind of consideration.


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## terryl965 (Nov 10, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> You still got nothing to back up your claims.


 
Man even when I say you win you keep it up, how old are you?:erg:


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## jks9199 (Nov 10, 2010)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Please avoid personal attacks; attack the message not the poster.

jks9199
Super Moderator
*


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## terryl965 (Nov 11, 2010)

Ok


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Cook won by fluke knockout when Steven made a very strange ducking motion in a completely weird angle. It was not a great act of skill. There is no way you can make the claim that a falling double kick at barely waist level was some kind of brilliant maneuver. There is no way Cook could have thought ahead of time Steven would lean over that far.


 
Again, you fail to see the point.  You have admitted that Cook was not at his best, when he fought Steven.  Yet, his dumb technique worked.  You can't claim that Cook would never beat Steven when he did on what you claim to be a bad performance on Cook's part.  

Neither you nor I can speculate what Cook was thinking when he threw it or what Steven was thinking when he blocked it with his face.


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Why would I continue training with someone whom I thought didn't know what they were talking about?


And it was your infinite amount of experience and knowlege at the time that determined that someone, who has been in the arts longer than you, did not know what they were talking about.  I see.  Thank you for that insight.  It tells us more about your character than you realize.


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## Gorilla (Nov 11, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Again, you fail to see the point.  You have admitted that Cook was not at his best, when he fought Steven.  Yet, his dumb technique worked.  You can't claim that Cook would never beat Steven when he did on what you claim to be a bad performance on Cook's part.
> 
> Neither you nor I can speculate what Cook was thinking when he threw it or what Steven was thinking when he blocked it with his face.



It is a kick that Steven Cook has thrown before and one that has become a signature kick.

Many athletes practice this kick.  It is being referred to as the Cook Kick on our Team.

Speaking of Lopez and Cook.  Steven had a chance to avenge that loss at the US Open.  Aaron Cook fought at the US Open so did Sebastion Michaud but Steven was on the side with his brother selling some product!

Why didn't Steven fight I would submit he did not fight like Mark fear of losing! 

The big problem I have with Mark is that the USAT publicized that he would fight and did not.

I have to respect Diane Lopez she fought at the US Open and won Silver.


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## Archtkd (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Cook won by fluke knockout when Steven made a very strange ducking motion in a completely weird angle. It was not a great act of skill. There is no way you can make the claim that a falling double kick at barely waist level was some kind of brilliant maneuver. There is no way Cook could have thought ahead of time Steven would lean over that far.


 
English is a tough language, but should we always resort to loud blather and distortion of the facts to make a point. Good pictures or tape rarely lie:  



 
The so called "a very ducking motion in a completely weird angle," appears to be Steve Lopez simply lowering his unprotectd head to avoid Aaron Cook's first kick -- a left outside inside crescent or axe kick, which was the first in a double sequence. Lopez's fate is sealed when that lowered head (jaw) meets Cook's roudhouse -- the second kick of the double sequence. None of the  kicks were "at barely waist level," as the poster asserts. Lopez, I think, is around 6'3".

And yes, in English, Cook's double-kick sequence can accurately be described as  a "great act of skill," and "some kind of brilliant maneuver." 

Doing a regular double-sequence with roundhouse kicks is comparatively easy. Kicking to the head with a downward outside inside crescent/axe kick, and then almost simultenously firing a high roundhouse kick with the other leg is a difficult thing to do, even at the elite level.


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> It is a kick that Steven Cook has thrown before and one that has become a signature kick.
> 
> Many athletes practice this kick. It is being referred to as the Cook Kick on our Team.


 
I should have put the "dumb" in quotes. I was using tex words to describe it. Yes, I have seen this kick utilize by others as well and it is effective (case in point Steven's KO).


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Many of Steven's fights with Rufus Hamon had questionable Kyungo's which interrupted the flow of the matches.



Rufus Hamon is really the only one I could give it to to possibly beat Steven.  Though in 09, they had a pretty rough fight.  Steven really wasn't looking good, and the fight came down to 0 : -1, with Hamon losing a point from penalties.  There have probably been a couple of fights that could have swung Hamon's way, but he simply does not have the skill to make it happen.  



> Mark's fight with Sokolov in the world team trials was marred with kyungo's for kicking low when Mark was jumping to avoid being hit.


Are you saying there is something wrong with jumping to avoid being hit?  If so, do you have the same criticism for all the times Jason Han did it as well?



> Sokolov won the US Open beating Juan Sanchez from Puerto Pico.  He also beat the World Silver Medalist from Canada.


Juan Sanchez, the same guy who lost in his very first fight at the 2009 world championships to Mark Lopez.  Though the win over Maxime Potvin was good.  Im not going to ask why you didn't give a shoutout to Brian Gallagher, but Im guessing its because as good as Brian Gallagher is, he hasn't performed well internationally.  



> He got more Kyungo's in 2 minutes fighting Mark than he got in 6 fights at the US Open.


Two?  I'm looking at a screenshot of the final scoreboard of one of their fights right now.  He has 2 Kyungo's. Now you are just making stuff up.



> By the way Mark was publicized by the USAT as going to fight @ the 2010 US Open.  It opens the question why didn't he fight.  I would say fear of losing in a very strong lightweight field.


Yes, Mark was publicized.  I'm not sure why he didn't fight.  Fear of losing, this is just baseless speculation.  Fear of losing didn't stop him from fighting in the Dutch Open in 2006 right after he "won" world championships in 2005.  So I'm not sure why he would feel that way now.



> Many of Mark's fights with Jason Han were very questionable.


I have seen some of these fights with Jason Han.  I really don't see what you are talking about here, Mark was pretty dominant the whole way.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> It is a kick that Steven Cook has thrown before and one that has become a signature kick.



oh dear, a signature kick.  Dude, he threw it at barely waist level.  That kick is supposed to be thrown at a range were a head typically is.  There is no way Cook could have predicted that Steven would lean half way over like that.  This is just ridiculous.  



> Many athletes practice this kick.  It is being referred to as the Cook Kick on our Team.


Mark Lopez does this kick.  Jason Han does this kick.  I'm pretty sure this kick has been a part of their regular training for years before anyone ever heard of Cook.  The point is, throughout the fight Cook never could get the kick anywhere higher than near Steven' shoulder.  Most of the time it was closer to his waist.  It was a desperate kick that eventually found an unlikely target.  If that's not a fluke, I don't know what is.



> Speaking of Lopez and Cook.  Steven had a chance to avenge that loss at the US Open.  Aaron Cook fought at the US Open so did Sebastion Michaud but Steven was on the side with his brother selling some product!
> 
> Why didn't Steven fight I would submit he did not fight like Mark fear of losing!


Dude, you have no idea how desperate the Lopez's are for money right now.  Their school was going under, and they eventually threw out their old coach, Paris Amani, in hopes they could salvage his share of the earnings.  From what I am hearing now, they have lost most of their student base and could be closing up shop any time now.  Steven is all about products and endorsements.  He has to make sure he doesn't lose that nice car of his.  He hasn't fought at US Open in years, he is there to make money.  Trust me, fear has nothing to do with his not fighting.  His pocket book was.  Fighting in the US Open doesnt pay the bills.  Sitting in a booth with his face plastered all over a product does.




> The big problem I have with Mark is that the USAT publicized that he would fight and did not.


I have this same problem, though Mark never even registered, nor do I think he ever planned on fighting.  I place the fault on an overzealous USAT trying to hype up their event.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I should have put the "dumb" in quotes. I was using tex words to describe it. Yes, I have seen this kick utilize by others as well and it is effective (case in point Steven's KO).



I have seen Mark use this kick well.  Cook's was not well.  It was dumb.  It was at waist level.  He had no way of knowing Steven was going to be bent over looking at the ground like that.


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> oh dear, a signature kick. Dude, he threw it at barely waist level. That kick is supposed to be thrown at a range were a head typically is. There is no way Cook could have predicted that Steven would lean half way over like that. This is just ridiculous.


 
How do you know? If you watch the video Cook tapped Steven from the left side jarring him forward and slightly downward to the right with his hands down and head wide open. Who is to say that Cook didn't think he get the head kick? As I said before, you don't know what he was thinking...You may be right, it may have just been a hail mary play that worked. All I'm saying is neither you nor I know for sure, unless of course you talked to Cook directly on this issue.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> English is a tough language, but should we always resort to loud blather and distortion of the facts to make a point. Good pictures or tape rarely lie:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nobody is impressed that you know the names of kicks.  Stop trying to be so wordy.

Man, Lopez is bent over in half.  But that's his fault.  Its a fluke knockout resulting by an error Lopez made.  Cook threw a sloppy and desperate kick that accidentally found a target.  I really don't know how anyone can watch the knockout and conclude otherwise.


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## Gorilla (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Rufus Hamon is really the only one I could give it to to possibly beat Steven.  Though in 09, they had a pretty rough fight.  Steven really wasn't looking good, and the fight came down to 0 : -1, with Hamon losing a point from penalties.  There have probably been a couple of fights that could have swung Hamon's way, but he simply does not have the skill to make it happen.
> 
> Are you saying there is something wrong with jumping to avoid being hit?  If so, do you have the same criticism for all the times Jason Han did it as well?
> 
> ...



Nothing wrong with Jumping to avoid...Sokolov should not have got the Kyungo's...I was referring to the second fight.  I will pull the video and if I am wrong I will retract. 

2006 was five years ago and I believe the last time he fought in an OPEN!!!

My thoughts on the reasons Mark did not fight in the US Open are totally speculation.  If he had fought there would be no need to speculate.  Steven did not fight?  

The Juan Sanchez fight was a very controversial fight.  Mark won in OT.  I believe it was 
the quarter finals(I could be wrong).  But many thought Juan won.  I hapen to think the Mark won a very close fight.  My point is that mark and Steven don't fight regularly in the US and we have plenty of fighters that can beat them.

Brian Gallagher is a great fighter he had beat Demitry Kim(Olympian) in the Semi Finals(US Open).  A great fight.  I did not think that Sokolov would have a hard time with Brian he is really a Bantamweight.  Sokolov is a bad match up for him.

Sokolov would be at the trials unfortunately He blew out his Knee before Nationals.  He tried to fight but the knee was not healed.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> You may be right, it may have just been a hail mary play that worked. All I'm saying is neither you nor I know for sure, unless of course you talked to Cook directly on this issue.



Lets line up all the claims that have been thrown around, and see what is more reasonable.  

1.  Cook pulled of a brilliant play and knocked out Lopez.
 - _Cook pulled of a hail marry play that miraculously worked_

2.  Steven Lopez was scared to fight at US Open
 - _Steven Lopez would rather be in a booth making money because his business is going under_

3.  Mark was going to fight, but go scarred when good people showed up
- _The USAT hyped up a possible Mark appearance to draw a bigger crowd to their event_

4.  The USAT is involved in an international conspiracy to give the Lopez guys freebies and makes it easy for them because they are marketing machines
- _The Lopez guys are simply better than the other competitors._


Now who is the one who sounds crazy here?  You guys sound like kooky conspiracy theorists to me.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The Juan Sanchez fight was a very controversial fight.  Mark won in OT.  I believe it was
> the quarter finals(I could be wrong).  But many thought Juan won.  I hapen to think the Mark won a very close fight.



Juan thought he won because they went into a clench, and a few seconds later the score went up for no reason at all.  No punches or kicks were thrown.  It was a technical error with the scoreboard.  

But I'm sure had they allowed that result to stay, you guys would be jumping up and down giggling about how Mark was defeated in a brilliant move by the greatest fighter ever who you had never heard of a week before, and how now you guys practice this at your school and call it a "Sanchez kick"



> My point is that mark and Steven don't fight regularly in the US and we have plenty of fighters that can beat them.



Who are these fighters, and why don't they beat them when it comes time to step in the ring at team trials?


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## Gorilla (Nov 11, 2010)

I understand the need to make $...He was selling products all week...He could have fought...
would have been tricky but they both could have fought...and he should have been fighting at all the US Opens!!!!

A. Cook is fighting all the time...He has fought at Multiple International Opens this year.

He was the JR World Champion and a 2008 Olympian who lost to the same Italian that Steven lost to...A. Cook is the best welterweights in the world.  I would say a good bet to win an Olympic Medal....  

Steven had a chance to fight him in the US Open and he chose not to it speaks volumes.  

Lets not get into why their school is failing!!!  The reason why is a overpriced faulty product!!!  if you can't turn 4 Olympic Medals 5 world Championships into a business then you have got problems.  

Many former Olympic Medalist run very strong Martial Arts businesses.  Why did the Lopez's fail.


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Lets line up all the claims that have been thrown around, and see what is more reasonable.
> 
> 1. Cook pulled of a brilliant play and knocked out Lopez.
> - _Cook pulled of a hail marry play that miraculously worked_


 
_Cook threw a shot what was aiming more towards the chest, but lucked out and got the head...not a brilliant play, but not a miracle either...skill was involved_




			
				tex said:
			
		

> 2. Steven Lopez was scared to fight at US Open
> - _Steven Lopez would rather be in a booth making money because his business is going under_


 
_If you want to take the business stand point, then it would have been better for Steven to fight. You are more apt to sell more when you are in the forefront of people's mind, especially martial art products. Instead he has been looked upon as being scared thus less business._



			
				tex said:
			
		

> 3. Mark was going to fight, but go scarred when good people showed up
> - _The USAT hyped up a possible Mark appearance to draw a bigger crowd to their event_


 
_The announcement of Mark fighting was not a last minute thing. At anytime Mark could have told USAT not to make such an announcement or he could have simply told the masses, no that was a mistake, I'm not planning to fight at the event. I don't remember him denying his participation, only not participating._



			
				tex said:
			
		

> 4. The USAT is involved in an international conspiracy to give the Lopez guys freebies and makes it easy for them because they are marketing machines
> - _The Lopez guys are simply better than the other competitors._


_Perhaps it is a little of both. It seems like when decisions are close, USAT will side with the Lopez family. Plus, let's face it...The first family of TKD gave USAT a lot of publicity during the Olympics. So yes, people may think that USAT made sure that they got the upper hand. The Lopez family are good fighters, but not unstoppable, as Cook pointed out._


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> _Cook threw a shot what was aiming more towards the chest, but lucked out and got the head...not a brilliant play, but not a miracle either...skill was involved_
> 
> I think this is about as close to agreement we are going to get on this.
> 
> ...



eh


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## miguksaram (Nov 11, 2010)

Ok..perhaps scared may be a poor choice of words...how about...reluctant, cautious, unsure, reserved.  Whatever...point is, that if he was truly thinking about business he would have made a better business move and fought.  This would motivate people to buy more stuff after a fresh win than it would living off of the past.

As for Mark, you can say he doesn't care about people saying he is going to fight when he isn't but look what is happening now.  He doesn't show and rumors fly. Though he could have made a back alley deal with USAT and got some kickback from them for using his name to draw a bigger crowd.


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## Gorilla (Nov 11, 2010)

They announced Mark's participation on multiple occasions.  It would have been the right thing for him to retract those announcements.


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## terryl965 (Nov 11, 2010)

All I will say is this no matter who wins, I will and have supported are selected athletes in the Olympics. We all do I know, I would also like to say that USAT is as much to blame about Mark as is Mark himself.


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## Master Dan (Nov 11, 2010)

As I read the posts and I appreciate them entertaining and informative. The oposing sides will not agree but as a Senior I might add some points.

*English?* Its interesting how people communictate. Most times when a person states a position or asks a question it is retorical? Means they are not asking for a real answer they simply wish to reinforce thier own opinion. One of the great mathematicians
a code breaker in WWII who wrote a book about this that it is pointless to negotiate or try to convince people like this wasted effort. But I agree in a public forum sometimes you just can't let something lie being spoken as gospel which may eduate the young or unlearned?

*Identity?* I do think anyone wishing to state a strong political or factual based post should be willing to PM or thier profile show who they are.

*Bad behavior?* When someone wants to behave badly by negative comments do not reward them by giving them what they want which is to get a raise out of you. You would not even think of taking out your wallet and handing them cash so why give them your time which is more valuable. You cannot teach the unteachable. 

*Nobody?*  Truth is the same regardless of who it comes from 2 + 2 still = 4 but age and experience should count for something.
However the blond lady posted on this site with her You Tube notice about the end of the world has just kinda blown that theory. However the blond lady posted on this site with her You Tube notice about the end of the world has just kinda blown that theory.

*Sparring?* At the last Master's license seminar and test the KKW had a person teaching the latest sparring examples and one was a blinding counter turn spin kick but he completely keeps his back to the oponent stating that in that position it is imposible for the openent to score. I don't like that or the scoring while falling down. I think oponents need to face each other. On the street your not going to turn your back at least no for long. Now that is my opinion which some agree with and some not but I am somebody my family and my dog loves me.


----------



## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> I don't like that or the scoring while falling down.



I have mixed feeling about falling down.  Though while everyone here seems to think its a brilliant maneuver that has become Cook's signature move, I would remind everyone that in the 90s and up until around 2001, falling down while kicking was the Steven Lopez leg block of its day.  It was controversial, considered unfair, but it won world championships.  I assure you that the same guys here applauding Cook for using it now would have been griping about the very thing 10 years ago.


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## Master Dan (Nov 11, 2010)

*5 years off from an open?*

I forgot this was an interesting topic. Depending on the age 5 years away from a volume of fighting or age past 26 can be a life time and posible injuries that won't or have not healed properly? It would be prudent for any fighter to limit or be selective about saving themselves for the title bout if possible. But this is not Pros so its seems everyone should be on an equal basis to qualify yearly? I would like to know what the printed rules are ralted to that? If it is not in the bylaws it woudl only make sence that the organization will protect what they see is the best media draw and finincial earner. 

Nationals do not make money they loose money as a rule? We hosted the 1990 nationals and my GM almost went bankrupt. Sad we paid for having the Ninja Turtles and they would do nothing just stand for pictures? 

I remember the Korean Masters took the entire OTC team up on the stands after the end and asked how many took 1st place, no bodyraised thier hands , how many 2nd place, none, how many 3rd place, none the masters droped thier hands and walked away in discust? They trained at our DoJang prior to the tournament and I was impressed with thier drills and sounds I had never heard? but it did not translate to good scoring?
 I also remeber it was the last time we had a breaking division the older guys were so out of shape they were injurying themselves before they even got to the boards it was sad.


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## Master Dan (Nov 11, 2010)

Any chance USAT will have a link on thier website or someone else for live coverage of the Trials on the internet?

Thanks


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## terryl965 (Nov 11, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Any chance USAT will have a link on thier website or someone else for live coverage of the Trials on the internet?
> 
> Thanks


 
Live updates though the USAT twitter account all day Saturday and Sunday


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## Gorilla (Nov 11, 2010)

First off you need to go and read the selection Criteria.  Ollie Burton won a silver at Nationals qualifying him for the Trials. He just *beat* James Howe at the Pan Am trials he is not the product of a selection camp.  Probably one of the most talented young fighters that we have.  He is a flyweight thou and I don't think a serious contender.  James Howe could  have signed up for this he is qualified as a National Team Member.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> First off you need to go and read the selection Criteria.  Ollie Burton won a silver at Nationals qualifying him for the Trials. He just *beat* James Howe at the Pan Am trials he is not the product of a selection camp.



Correct.  Im not sure why I seem to have confused pam am trials with the 2010 national team selection.  

Either way, Ollie Burton doesn't have much of a chance.  Not in Featherweight.  Unless he has managed to pack on 20 pounds of muscle in the past two months.


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## texkwondo (Nov 11, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Live updates though the USAT twitter account all day Saturday and Sunday



hooray!  

What happened to the live video feed like US Open 2010?  Chris Martinez gave some good commentary.


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## Gorilla (Nov 11, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Rufus Hamon is really the only one I could give it to to possibly beat Steven.  Though in 09, they had a pretty rough fight.  Steven really wasn't looking good, and the fight came down to 0 : -1, with Hamon losing a point from penalties.  There have probably been a couple of fights that could have swung Hamon's way, but he simply does not have the skill to make it happen.
> 
> Are you saying there is something wrong with jumping to avoid being hit?  If so, do you have the same criticism for all the times Jason Han did it as well?
> 
> ...




Just re-looked at the Sokolov/Lopez fights.  2 Kyungo's the first fight a fairly called fight.  Vlad lost.  Second fight 6 Kyungo's 2 legit...4 BS...This fight was discussed with the head ref at the time and he agreed that the Kyungo's should not have been given but you can't over turn field of play decisions.  The Kyungo's early changed the flow of the fight.  The ref for this fight was not an experienced IR.  It begs the question why did we not have our best refs in the finals of such an important match.


----------



## Gorilla (Nov 12, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6J6tpRXiv8&feature=related


Close fight with Jason Han...


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## Gorilla (Nov 12, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCMKVku1pJ0&feature=related


Mark Lopez Vs Juan Sanchez


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## Gorilla (Nov 12, 2010)

Tell me, were you there at 2009 US National team trials? I sure as heck was. And if you can watch the final two minutes of the last match between Vlad and Mark, see Vlad completely zombie out and take punches to the chest while staring blankly into the distance, and still tell me "Vlad got cheated by bad scoring", then I really don't know what to tell you. This literally happened. 


I watched the fight last night a pretty skewed evaluation.

I never thought Vlad won that fight.  I thought that the Kyungo's given for kicking low were absurd.  I think that the poor center officiating gave Vlad a steeper hill to climb.  I think that the Lopez's are very good fighters.  You asked for examples of fights in which they gained an advantage because of who they are.  This is one of them!!!!  

I will state that I believe that Mark saw Sokolov as a threat and when he saw Potvin, Kim, Sanchez, Galagher, Sokolov and Jenning's it was to great a risk for him to fight.  I don't think that this is a baseless assertion.  I saw him there he was healthy and could have fought*( he said that he would) *but chose not to.  He should have fought!!!!


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## Grenadier (Nov 12, 2010)

*Attention All Users:*

This thread has now been moved to The Great Debate.  While some more leeway is allowed in this forum, it's still up to you to read the rules regarding this forum.  

Ronald Shin
MT Supermoderator


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## terryl965 (Nov 12, 2010)

Good afternoon Ronald, while I appreciate the move I do not understand it? This is strickly about Sport TKD so it should remain in that section. I can see why some might believe it should be moved, I believe we all are acting pretty well considering what this topic is about. The thing I fear is it getting lost in that section. Thank you for looking and I know the mods are doing a great job.:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 12, 2010)

*Admin Notice:*
Due to complaints we have removed at least 1 post from this thread, an action we do not take lightly.

Before making insinuations or out right claims of impropriety please remember that you as poster are 100% responsible and liable for your comments, and should MartialTalk receive notice, we will comply with -all- properly served court orders. 
*
Slander, Libel and Defamation of Character are all against our policies.*


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 12, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Good afternoon Ronald, while I appreciate the move I do not understand it? This is strickly about Sport TKD so it should remain in that section. I can see why some might believe it should be moved, I believe we all are acting pretty well considering what this topic is about. The thing I fear is it getting lost in that section. Thank you for looking and I know the mods are doing a great job.:asian:


Terry, if things stay sane, and focus on sports, we'll consider moving it back shortly.


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## terryl965 (Nov 12, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Terry, if things stay sane, and focus on sports, we'll consider moving it back shortly.


 

Thank you as always


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## d1jinx (Nov 12, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Admin Notice:*
> Due to complaints we have removed at least 1 post from this thread, an action we do not take lightly.
> 
> Before making insinuations or out right claims of impropriety please remember that you as poster are 100% responsible and liable for your comments, and should MartialTalk receive notice, we will comply with -all- properly served court orders.
> ...


 

So the almighty USAT got to you huh?!?!?!?!? :rofl:


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## d1jinx (Nov 12, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Terry, if things stay sane, and focus on sports, we'll consider moving it back shortly.


 
I have to agree with terry, this is a TKD thing.... hope you re-consider the move.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 12, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> So the almighty USAT got to you huh?!?!?!?!? :rofl:


No. Several members complaining about comments that looked to be defamation of character at a legally risky level. Having to pay my lawyer more often would seriously cut into my ability to keep up with Scooby Doo and Star Trek collectibles.


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## hal-apino (Nov 16, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> You are somebody to me Terry!!!
> 
> Mark and Steven are great fighters but the USAT gives them every advantage.
> 
> ...


 
Did you notice in the Recent pictures posted on the USAT web-site that Herb "2008" team leader was at the event, on the floor in what appears to be during a match that was stopped? Wonder why Herb, a Vendor that USAT bought out his contract was doing on the floor with officials during a match at team trials anyone know?


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> No. Several members complaining about comments that looked to be defamation of character at a legally risky level. Having to pay my lawyer more often would seriously cut into my ability to keep up with Scooby Doo and Star Trek collectibles.


 
Just to keep your Sooby Doo collectibles slush fund safe, you may want to consider removing Post #37 in this thread as well.


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## RSweet (Nov 16, 2010)

hal-apino said:


> Did you notice in the Recent pictures posted on the USAT web-site that Herb "2008" team leader was at the event, on the floor in what appears to be during a match that was stopped? Wonder why Herb, a Vendor that USAT bought out his contract was doing on the floor with officials during a match at team trials anyone know?



I was told that Herb was there doing video review at the request of the USAT. He was an official.


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## hal-apino (Nov 16, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Just to keep your Sooby Doo collectibles slush fund safe, you may want to consider removing Post #37 in this thread as well.


 
You can't be sued for telling the truth!


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## hal-apino (Nov 16, 2010)

RSweet said:


> I was told that Herb was there doing video review at the request of the USAT. He was an official.


 Interesting, that they would use Herb to view the instant replays,  Who would apoint that position?  Davie, the head national coach Jean?    Well it seems they are covering all bases!


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## miguksaram (Nov 16, 2010)

hal-apino said:


> You can't be sued for telling the truth!


Yes, you can...you can be sued for anything.  I can sue you for the exclaimation point which has caused me mental anguish...now I have a fear of posting because of you. :erg: ha.ha.ha.ha.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Don't you guys go picking on Aaron! I saw him on television on the Olympics about less said the better. However I've decided to lure him away to MMA 

I know nothing about your procedures for picking the team but at some point a team will always have to change as competitors get too old to compete properly so it's always worth doing your best and not giving up, for your own pride if nothing else. 

Nice argument btw


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## Gorilla (Nov 16, 2010)

I greatly admire Aaron Cook.  I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron while waiting with Vlad @ the Medals Ceremony @ the US Open  This kid is the cream of the light/welter division.  He fights @ many of the international opens unlike Mark or Steven. Steven is going to have a very hard time beating him!  TJ Curry has almost the identical style and he almost beat Steven this weekend.  This Olympics is going to be a big test of Steven's resolve and determination.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I greatly admire Aaron Cook. I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron while waiting with Vlad @ the Medals Ceremony @ the US Open This kid is the cream of the light/welter division. He fights @ many of the international opens unlike Mark or Steven. Steven is going to have a very hard time beating him! TJ Curry has almost the identical style and he almost beat Steven this weekend. This Olympics is going to be a big test of Steven's resolve and determination.


 
 We have home advantage this time for the Olympics lol!

Aarons on Facebook if you want to catch up with him, it's a public bit not a private one.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Aaron-Cook/24372968146


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I greatly admire Aaron Cook.  I had the opportunity to talk to Aaron while waiting with Vlad @ the Medals Ceremony @ the US Open  This kid is the cream of the light/welter division.  He fights @ many of the international opens unlike Mark or Steven. Steven is going to have a very hard time beating him! * TJ Curry has almost the identical style* and he almost beat Steven this weekend.  This Olympics is going to be a big test of Steven's resolve and determination.



So TJ Curry falls down every 10 seconds too?


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> So TJ Curry falls down every 10 seconds too?


 
When I said don't pick on Aaron I wasn't entirely joking you know.

You know what they say about those that criticise, it's that they can't do it themselves. Are you a member of your country's Olympic team? Do you coach your country's team, if not I really suggest an end to snide posting, it just looks like sour grapes mate. 
I don't suppose you are the parent of a hopeful who's been passed over for selection?

It's no secret to the guys here I don't actually like Olympic TKD, to me it's akin to Riverdance but for you to waltz on here upsetting the good people who do like it and whose family, students etc work so hard to get somewhere in their chosen activity is hardly the actions of someone who has Olympic TKDs interests at heart, it's the actions of someone who just want to upset and be argumentative.

This thread which I read with interest has been moved, and had warnings and yet still you bring out the sarky little remarks. I really think it would be in the best interest if _no one actually took any notice of you after this_. Sorry but unless you can, as many of our mothers used to say, say something nice or postive I wouldn't say anything at all.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> When I said don't pick on Aaron I wasn't entirely joking you know.
> 
> You know what they say about those that criticise, it's that they can't do it themselves. Are you a member of your country's Olympic team? Do you coach your country's team, if not I really suggest an end to snide posting, it just looks like sour grapes mate.
> I don't suppose you are the parent of a hopeful who's been passed over for selection?


 
Be nice to Tex...afterall he was born with unlimited knowledge of TKD that is why he knew better than his former master and knows better than those of us who have been involved in it longer than he has been on this earth.  You leave him be!!!:uhyeah:


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

Don't be ridiculous.  Falling down the way Aaron Cook does is nothing new.  Seems everyone these days forgets that in the 90s, up until it was banned in 2001/2002, falling down while kicking was just the thing to do.  It won world championships.  People back then criticized it the same way the Steven Lopez leg block is criticized today.  Though at least Lopez could stay on his d*** feet.  Though I personally think the leg block is a much more legitimate technique than falling down.

So long as everyone thinks it is legit to criticize Lopez leg block, and call it cheating and unfair and all that, I think it is entirely legit to criticize Cook for falling down every few kicks.  Aaron Cook is just fortunate that he is competing at a time where falling down isn't prominent, so the refs seem to forget that officially none of the points he receives should be awarded if he falls down while kicking.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> When I said don't pick on Aaron I wasn't entirely joking you know.
> 
> You know what they say about those that criticise, it's that they can't do it themselves. Are you a member of your country's Olympic team? Do you coach your country's team, if not I really suggest an end to snide posting, it just looks like sour grapes mate.
> I don't suppose you are the parent of a hopeful who's been passed over for selection?
> ...


 

TEZ you must remeber that TEX has a voice and we cannot stop people from there opinions about anybody,(Wait Tex I mean your correct views as always because you are the sole hier to the thrown of TKD in the world) please forgive me for my ignorance. Anyway TEZ let Tex alone he is always right Aaron does not know anything he was lucky when he knocked Steven out, by the way has luck played in alot of knockouts of course so.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

If you are going to dismiss everything I have said, at least read this one

If everyone here is going to be critical of the arguments I present, and call me out for being disrespectful or anything, I point you back to this thread discussing Olympic trials 2008

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61969&highlight=lopez



terryl965 said:


> Chtis just let Mark win plain and simple, this  young man gave up a chance of a lifetime for his buddy and coach.



This is the most ignorant ********** thing I have ever read.  You dont have a clue what you are talking about.



Tez3 said:


> to me that's not fighting or even sparring..



lol



Tez3 said:


> What's with the arms down by the side though? No guard?



You know what they say about those that criticise, it's that they can't do it themselves



terryl965 said:


> Nia won the match 2-0. If the refereee's would  gave penalty points for falling and avoiding the fight Nia wins 3-0.



Yet Aaron Cook is a genius when he falls down.  I see how this works.   Anything is fair game so long as one of the Lopez's doesn't get too good  at it.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Be nice to Tex...afterall he was born with unlimited knowledge of TKD that is why he knew better than his former master and knows better than those of us who have been involved in it longer than he has been on this earth.  You leave him be!!!:uhyeah:



Yes.  I do know more about this than you.  And the other guys posting around here as well.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> TEZ you must remeber that TEX has a voice and we cannot stop people from there opinions about anybody,(Wait Tex I mean your correct views as always because you are the sole hier to the thrown of TKD in the world) please forgive me for my ignorance. Anyway TEZ let Tex alone he is always right Aaron does not know anything he was lucky when he knocked Steven out, by the way has luck played in alot of knockouts of course so.





terryl965 said:


> Nia won the match 2-0. If the refereee's would   gave penalty points for falling and avoiding the fight Nia wins 3-0.



Diana Lopez falls:  Terry thinks she should get penalized
Aaron Cook falls:  Terry think Cook is a brilliant fighter, employing top level strategy

Amazing


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Yes. I do know more about this than you. And the other guys posting around here as well.


 
Of course you do little boy.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Of course you do little boy.



Are you going to address any of the points i have made on this page today?


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Are you going to address any of the points i have made on this page today?


 
Why should I?  You haven't addressed any questions that I or Terry have asked of you.  I have already pointed out flaws in your logic.  Start addressing the questions and points previously first and maybe...if you're lucky...I will chime in on new stuff you add.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Why should I?  You haven't addressed any questions that I or Terry have asked of you.  I have already pointed out flaws in your logic.  Start addressing the questions and points previously first and maybe...if you're lucky...I will chime in on new stuff you add.



What questions are these?  Just tell me the thread and post number, and I will be happy to answer whatever you brought up.


----------



## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

A simple search leads back to plenty of people criticizing Cook for the same stuff I criticize him for now.  Yet back then none of these people took any heat.  Most of you guys were even in agreement.  



Twin Fist said:


> the other guy had both feet off the floor, no  base at all, nothing to push against,  and wasnt even trying to throw an  actual kick, and lopez got zoinked out.





Twin Fist said:


> if he got knocked out by that off balance, ACCIDENTAL no focus BS, he deserved it.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> If you are going to dismiss everything I have said, at least read this one
> 
> If everyone here is going to be critical of the arguments I present, and call me out for being disrespectful or anything, I point you back to this thread discussing Olympic trials 2008
> 
> ...


 


Ah, he bites!!


Of course I can't do Olympic TKD silly boy, I'm too old to be getting my leg over oops I mean up that high! I do a mean Muay Thai kick to the bollocks though that'll make your eyes water.

I did say I've no time for Olympic TKD if you want to read my post again, but if the boys and girls want to waste their time doing it rather than the hugely sexy sport of MMA ( or the even better style of Wado Ryu karate) and end up representing their countries at the Olympics etc then good on them! I might not like what they do but it's hugely skilful, they are very dedicated and work hard. A good example to youth and even their elders sometimes.

It's one thing me being an outsider as it were, passing comments on Olympic TKD but it seems wrong that someone who's supposed to be a supporter manages to make so many snide remarks about it.

I don't suppose you want to make all your comments just on the one post or are you trying to get more money to play in the casino, Just say, old boy, you can have mine. Acutally anyone can just PM me. As you can see I have $23,731 so far. I just like playing the bashing small furry animals on the head games.

Personally I like young men who fall down, preferably at my feet, it shows a fine sense of my importance in this world. Young women can fall down as well but I'd leave them on the floor, the young men I'd feel I had to join on the floor. Bear with me, chaps this is no more nonsense than the post 'I know more than you'.:ultracool


Now the thing is my first language is English, proper *English* English, when we say fall we mean it was accidental, not the fallees fault, an accident. When we say dropped we mean they were KO'd, when we say threw himself to the floor that's a deliberate action so what are we talling about here? That Aaron throws himself to the floor to gain sympathy? He really is a frustrated MMA fighter and wants to go to the ground? What exactly? The only time I'm seen people throw themselves to the ground in any type of fight or comp is when they were pretending to have received a low blow. 


Btw, you don't know more than me at all. You don't even know what my favourite perfume is or whether I prefer roses to freesias. Still I expect you enjoy posting here trying to betlittle everyone so crack on son whatever makes your willy grow hard.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> What questions are these? Just tell me the thread and post number, and I will be happy to answer whatever you brought up.


Post #18, #23, #35, #54.  That would be a good beginning.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> A simple search leads back to plenty of people criticizing Cook for the same stuff I criticize him for now. Yet back then none of these people took any heat. Most of you guys were even in agreement.


 
Perhaps because they post without claiming they know everything and are always right?


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Diana Lopez falls: Terry thinks she should get penalized
> Aaron Cook falls: Terry think Cook is a brilliant fighter, employing top level strategy
> 
> Amazing


 
First off I have never said Aaron was a brillant fighter what I said was he kknocked Steven out, there is a big difference, Give Aaron the same penalty you would give Diana and Iam OK with that but the fact still remains he was knocked out so Aaron won. Diana never knocked Nia out so there is a difference again. Rule's state that a fighter should be given a penalty when they are falling to avoid the counter, Aaron was not avoiding the counter but instead landing a hail marry and yes it was a hail marry but he made it work for him.


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> A simple search leads back to plenty of people criticizing Cook for the same stuff I criticize him for now. Yet back then none of these people took any heat. Most of you guys were even in agreement.


 

First off to bring Twin Fist to your rescue is silly he does not even do Olympic TKD and has no clue what is or is not any good. He has been beaten to death on this subject by all people even not Olympic ones.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Post #18, #23, #35, #54.  That would be a good beginning.



18:  Who am I?  Irrelevant to the discussion.

23:  Who am I?  Irrelevant again

35:





miguksaram said:


> So now you are with a non-Korean master and  you have chosen to believe a different propoganda?
> 
> _Non-korean, yes.  Different propoganda?  Maybe_
> 
> ...



54:  How old am I?  Another irrelevant issue.


Man, you got nothing.  So you are saying you can't address my issues with the falling down aspect of taekwondo competition until I tell you what my ********** name is?

Why am I even wasting time arguing with this ignorance?


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

Like I have said before please give your real name and where you train so it is out in the open, most people that know everything would want people to know then so we can all bow down in front of them everytime. Also you are the only one that is ever right all of us that have been around 35-45 years no nothing all hail the King!!!! :asian:

Like you said youwill be happy to answer question so here is the million dollar question: Who are you and why hide behind not telling us?:erg:


----------



## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps because they post without claiming they know everything and are always right?



I don't claim to know everything.  I don't claim to be always right.  

I claim to know more than any of you guys.  I claim I am right and you guys are wrong.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

Guys, you are doing a sterling job but I seriously think that Tex is throwing in a line and reeling people in, I wouldn't say he's trolling as such but he's certainly trying to wind people up, whether this is for amusement or whether he's serious about knowing everything I can't say.

How about end of round two and everyone return to corners for a drink and a breather?  Then come back later on?


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> 18: Who am I? Irrelevant to the discussion.
> 
> 23: Who am I? Irrelevant again
> 
> ...


 

No what we are saying is why brother when someone that supposeably knows more than us cannot even devulge who he is? Why would that bemaybe just maybe because you really do not know everything and this way you cannot be called out when we see you. I like people to know who I am and I like people to have there own views about things but most people would talk to me in amanner thst is respectful and not hide behind dark windows


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Like I have said before please give your real name and where you train so it is out in the open, most people that know everything would want people to know then so we can all bow down in front of them everytime. Also you are the only one that is ever right all of us that have been around 35-45 years no nothing all hail the King!!!! :asian:
> 
> Like you said youwill be happy to answer question so here is the million dollar question: Who are you and why hide behind not telling us?:erg:



Nice dodge.  I already made it clear.  Even if I told you who I am, you wouldn't know who I am.  Its not like you are uncovering some big secret.  

Face facts.  By the simple point that you claim Chris Martinez threw the fight, you have demonstrated that you are beyond ignorant.  I hope you don't teach your students this same dribble.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I don't claim to know everything. I don't claim to be always right.
> 
> I claim to know more than any of you guys. I claim I am right and you guys are wrong.


 
 remember a wise man once said to be a gentleman one must first be a man.:asian:


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I don't claim to know everything. I don't claim to be always right.
> 
> I claim to know more than any of you guys. I claim I am right and you guys are wrong.


 
My dear boy, of course you're right and of course you know more than anyone else. 

:BSmeter:


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> No what we are saying is why brother when someone that supposeably knows more than us cannot even devulge who he is? Why would that bemaybe just maybe because you really do not know everything and this way you cannot be called out when we see you. I like people to know who I am and I like people to have there own views about things but most people would talk to me in amanner thst is respectful and not hide behind dark windows



Why do you guys change the subject when you are called out?


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Nice dodge. I already made it clear. Even if I told you who I am, you wouldn't know who I am. Its not like you are uncovering some big secret.
> 
> Face facts. By the simple point that you claim Chris Martinez threw the fight, you have demonstrated that you are beyond ignorant. I hope you don't teach your students this same dribble.


 
I am tired of you degading me, I am entitle to me opinions as well as you, Let see how many International Champions have you trained? How many State, National and evn Local? I have had alot of them and still do, people come to me because I know something about the sport and TKD in general. You are the ignorant one on this thread, you are the name caller, you do not know how to respect anybody let alone yourself. Why are you here just to be a pain in the ***, because you believe you are right all the time, please anytime you would like to sit down and talk apple to apples let me know and not be like a jerk.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

sideways shift...

Does anyone know any of the other Brit TKD players? If so how good are they and how many medals are we going to get at our Olympics? Are all TKD selections for the Olympics done the same way? 
If I come to watch the TKD at the London Olympics are any of you guys going to be there? Okay being honest not that bothered about watching the TKD lol but it would be fantastic to meet people from here!


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Why do you guys change the subject when you are called out?


 

why do you keep calling us guys regardless of what gender we are?


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I am tired of you degading me, I am entitle to me opinions as well as you, Let see how many International Champions have you trained? How many State, National and evn Local? I have had alot of them and still do, people come to me because I know something about the sport and TKD in general. You are the ignorant one on this thread, you are the name caller, you do not know how to respect anybody let alone yourself. Why are you here just to be a pain in the ***, because you believe you are right all the time, please anytime you would like to sit down and talk apple to apples let me know and not be like a jerk.



Yet you are free to degrade other fighters who have accomplished much more than you ever have.  You claim Chris Martinez threw the Olympic team trials finals.  Nothing I have said about you comes CLOSE to stacking up with how demeaning and disrespectful this comment is.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> So TJ Curry falls down every 10 seconds too?



No!!!  They are both big threats to Steven and it shows in your attacks!!!!

Strangely the Lopez that I have the most respect for is D. Lopez.  She fought at the US Open! The Canadian Open!  She is fighting and it shows.  She is the Top Lopez right now!!!

Mark does not fight except @ selected events.  He lost to guys who fought all the time.  Brian Gallagher and TJ.  May be Mark should change his strategy!

Steven fights @ only selected events except World Event in Mexico (KO Aaron Cook).  He could have avenged that KO at the US Open in Vegas he was there and chose not toooooo!

The best Welterweight(Aaron Cook) in the world was at that tournament and Steven was on the sideline hocking some product.  

Steven was tested by TJ Curry.  It either speaks to Steven falling off or we have another World Class fighter in the US.  I believe that TJ is that good!


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The best Welterweight(Aaron Cook) in the world



One of the best?  Absolutely.  THE best?  Not quite.  When he wins the Olympics or the World Championships, I will be right there with you.  Until then, your assessment is premature.


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## miguksaram (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Why am I even wasting time arguing with this ignorance?


 
Wow, I guess we do think alike..I had the same thought about you.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Wow, I guess we do think alike..I had the same thought about you.



The difference is I have valid points.  You have got nothing.

You people need to get over yourselves.  Arguments stand or fall on their own merits, I don't care who you think you are or what you think you have done.  So far I am the only one who has added anything of substance to the debate.


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## texkwondo (Nov 17, 2010)

I would still like Terry to address the issue with Chris Martinez.


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2010)

*So you guys keep talking about your level playing field and all that. Maybe if you keep training hard you will one day realize that the Lopez guys keep winning because they are honestly a level above most everyone else. You keep up that pipe-dream that one of your underdog heros will win it all one of these days when the judging is "fair".*

*Quote Texkwondo.  *

Again from all accounts this event was fair.  I have not heard anything to the contrary!

TJ won!  He is hardly an underdog!  Mark was beaten by Brian Gallaher also a great fighter most would have considered him an underdog to Mark!

D. Lopez fought well and gained allot of respect!

Steven was tested but still prevailed.  We have allot of talent in this division and if Steven does not qualify this Division @ the Olympic Qualifier he will have to fight these guys again and that will be fun.  TJ Curry is a tireless worker and he is going to only get better.  his improvement over the last Year has been phenomenal*(GREAT JOB MASTER SINGER)*.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I would still like Terry to address the issue with Chris Martinez.


 
Why that is old news this thread is about this year event, why don't you bring the other thread to life. When you can come out in the open I will carry on an intelligent converstation, until than the plan is the same to  aggavate you like you do to me.:erg:


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> One of the best? Absolutely. THE best? Not quite. When he wins the Olympics or the World Championships, I will be right there with you. Until then, your assessment is premature.


 
So that means Steven is not the best as well since he did not win gold at the olympoics right?


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> Yet you are free to degrade other fighters who have accomplished much more than you ever have. You claim Chris Martinez threw the Olympic team trials finals. Nothing I have said about you comes CLOSE to stacking up with how demeaning and disrespectful this comment is.


 
Once again you bring up old news that is not part of this thread, my opinion I am not saying it as a fact it is my opinion. There is a difference you know but then again maybe you do not. Since then I have told Chris I was sorry and he accepted it, so maybe you need to know all your facts. Sometime we chat without thinking about ather people feelings but to bring something up from years ago is plan and simple wrong.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> I would still like Terry to address the issue with Chris Martinez.


 
That was adrress a long time ago and an apology was given to Chris, so it is a dead issue. What happen in the past is the past but I asm alway entitle to my opinion whether you the lopezs or anybody else likes it.


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## terryl965 (Nov 17, 2010)

Originally Posted by *terryl965* 

 
_*Chtis just let Mark win plain and simple, this young man gave up a chance of a lifetime for his buddy and coach*_

_This is from a thread from 2/5/2008 and like I have said over and over again it was address with Chris and I apologies to him. But since you like to bring up old thread, lets talk about this one shall we._


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> One of the best?  Absolutely.  THE best?  Not quite.  When he wins the Olympics or the World Championships, I will be right there with you.  Until then, your assessment is premature.[/QUOT
> 
> 1.  He KO'd Steven the last time they fought.
> 
> ...


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## Gorilla (Nov 17, 2010)

msmitht said:


> *So the word is that The USAT has unofficially selected the 2 male athletes that will be attending the next Olympic games. Guess who they will be? That's right : Mark and Steve Lopez. *
> I spent a week with athletes at OTC for the pan am team trials and the Rocky mountain open. The word going round the stands/locker rooms/living quarters is that Mark will drop to featherweight and our golden boy will hopefully be golden again (unless he meets Arron Cook). The coaching staff did not deny this when asked. They just said "we'll see, but most likely...".
> My response:"I believe that there are still team trials to consider, unless they are planning another fiasco like what happened in the Nia/Dianna fight off." I got no reply.
> I am not saying that Mark does not deserve to go. I just think that he should stay in his weight class and let someone else have a chance.
> Any thoughts?



I guess TJ and Brian put wrench in these plans. 

TJ Curry really made Steven pay attention!!!!!  So much for the idea that nobody can really challenge the Lopez's in the US!!!!  

I am glad that all the athletes bothered!!!!!  These trials really show cased the great talent in the US being developed by allot of Masters outside of the favored groups!!!!


Cudos to the USAT for running a fair Olympic Trials.  Please fix all the other areas!!!

And I really hope to see Patrice Remark in the Coaching chair for TJ he deserves it.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> The difference is I have valid points. *You have got nothing.*
> 
> You people need to get over yourselves. Arguments stand or fall on their own merits, I don't care who you think you are or what you think you have done. So far I am the only one who has added anything of substance to the debate.


 
I have something, I have patience but it's running out. It's not my place to issue warnings but it is my place to warn that posts that attack the person not the post are not allowed here. This thread has been moved once and is in danger of actually being locked unless the subject matter turns from attacks on personalties. I have tried a few times gently hinting that this thread is getting heated again, you may not appreciate my humour but you must appreciate my hints or risk being locked down and warnings issued.

You may be getting frustrated by whatever it is that you think people here aren't getting or you may just be winding people up for the fun of it, I suggest you stop whichever it is.

You don't have to listen to me of course but I suggest you do.

I suggest everyone else takes a deep breath, has a think about whether they are coming to London in 2012 so I can buy them a drink at the Olympics, you haven't lived till you've been in a London pub. Thinking about that will give you the few minutes needed to calm down and return this thread to the civilised level I know TKD people can reach. if you wish to change the subject, try persuading me that I could grow to love Olympic TKD but whatever, we need a return to politeness please.


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2010)

texkwondo said:


> A simple search leads back to plenty of people criticizing Cook for the same stuff I criticize him for now. Yet back then none of these people took any heat. Most of you guys were even in agreement.


 

You are too new to even know Who you quoted, TWIN FIST?  HE is the most ANTI-OLYMPIC/SPORT person here. bad choice to quote something he says.


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## andyjeffries (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> why do you keep calling us guys regardless of what gender we are?



While I'm not getting involved in the actual debate, I'd probably say because guys can be a non-gender specific plural for people:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=guys

Definition 2.

I know urban dictionary is hardly an authoritative source, but enough people agree it can be non-gender specific for it to be listed there and upvoted.


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## d1jinx (Nov 17, 2010)

:argue:

:boxing:​


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## andyjeffries (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Does anyone know any of the other Brit TKD players? If so how good are they and how many medals are we going to get at our Olympics? Are all TKD selections for the Olympics done the same way?



I haven't read the rest of the thread, but basically I'd list the top Brit players as: Aaron Cook, Sarah Stevenson, Jade Jones, Bianca Walkden and Tony Grisman (although Tony apparently won't be at London 2012).  Bianca and Sarah may be in the same division so we might not see both fight (depending on which division Sarah chooses apparently).



Tez3 said:


> If I come to watch the TKD at the London Olympics are any of you guys going to be there? Okay being honest not that bothered about watching the TKD lol but it would be fantastic to meet people from here!



I'm definitely going!  I only live 30 minutes from London so it would be rude not to!


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## jks9199 (Nov 18, 2010)

Thread locked pending review.  Sniping and personal attacks are violations of the Martial Talk Rules.

jks9199
Super Moderator


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