# Any suggestions for Iron Palm / Iron Bone training?



## zen_hydra

I have recently added Iron Palm / Iron Bone training to my martial arts regiment, and I am curious about what forms of exercise those of you who have experience with this training have done.  I won't go into the number of reps for each exercise, but what I currently do includes fingertip pushups, fingertip striking to gravel, wooden post striking with various hand, foot, and forearm points, grasping and catching heavy bag of gravel, rolling a 40+ lb iron bar down the inflexed shins and forearms, uses 40+ lb as training weight for hand / wrist / arm curls and sit-ups, and medicine ball training.  So if anyone can add some additional ideas it would be very much appreciated.


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## Jotaro Joestar

We do the same at our school, but you have to keep up the training on a regular basis.


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## ECYili

From what I know of there of 2 main styles of iron palm training.  There is the external style which is alot like what you were expalining and there's the internal which mainly does alot of chi gong a small amount physical exersices.

In the style I practice we combine the both.  They way our iron palm is set up is in 3-100 day stages, the third really never ends.  The first stage has most of the physical conditioning.  Finger tip push up, various wrist strengthening exersices, finger extenions, slap bag, candle training, finger tip thrusts, makiwara training, qi gong and grip exercises.  I might have forgotten one or two.  I have never made it to the second and third stages but from what I know they get into more qi gong, striking exercises, some more conditioning.  Maybe one of my more senior brothers that have gone through it will jump on and explain it in more indepth.

Hope this is what you were looking for.

Dan


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## zen_hydra

We too have internal aspects and forms in our Iron Palm / Bone  / Shirt development.  We also practice qi gong, but separately from these exercises.  I am mostly just interested in specific external exercises that various schools use for Iron training.


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## chufeng

Are you using any dit da jow?

You really should use this before and after iron palm training...
Also, qigong immediately after is good, too...

If you don't know what you're doing (that is, you don't have someone to guide you through the process), you can hurt yourself .

:asian:
chufeng


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by zen_hydra _
> *I have recently added Iron Palm / Iron Bone training to my martial arts regiment, and I am curious about what forms of exercise those of you who have experience with this training have done.  I won't go into the number of reps for each exercise, but what I currently do includes fingertip pushups, fingertip striking to gravel, wooden post striking with various hand, foot, and forearm points, grasping and catching heavy bag of gravel, rolling a 40+ lb iron bar down the inflexed shins and forearms, uses 40+ lb as training weight for hand / wrist / arm curls and sit-ups, and medicine ball training.  So if anyone can add some additional ideas it would be very much appreciated. *



What do you use to aid in recovery?  

I researched this area before I started my Iron Fist training (conditioning, to be more precise). The key is the recovery. There is no secret in pounding sand or gravel or makiwara or iron dust. But what you do to stimulate the recovery of the damaged tissue and the joints, would dictate progress as well as success of your endeavour.


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## zen_hydra

Yes, I use dit da jow.  It consists of two different topical medicines used concurrently.  It works, but man does it smell.


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## Phil Elmore

Simple Iron Palm Drill using Immortal Single Section Wall Bag (filled with mung bean)


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## KennethKu

I have heard about using mung beans in the training bag.  However, I am curious if anyone has gotten any result training using them. It just seems too soft.  I use gravel rocks in a 50 lb bag.  I also disagree with the advice about not to strike with force.  That defeats the purpose.


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## Phil Elmore

Depends on what you think the purpose is.  If you want to turn your hands into knobby, useless hand-like things, hit a bag of gravel as hard as you like.   Proper conditioning while maintaining healthy hands takes time.


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## chufeng

You are not just training the hand...
The strike involves the entire body...

If you "slam" your hand into/onto the gravel, you may sustain injury that is not apparent and shows itself after it is too late.

If you "slam" your hand into anything, chances are you are developing tension in parts of the body that should remain relaxed for the real strike to develop...

Eventually, with proper training, you will be able to hit things hard, very hard...but, you can't start there.

Master Arthur Lee (FutGaKun) had one heck of an iron palm and he slapped the air...never used the bag of beans, bucket of rice, or anything else...

:asian:
chufeng


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## yilisifu

I agree.  Real iron palm training does not emphasize striking forcefully with the hand.  The blows are made in a relaxed manner because the entire body is being trained (as well as the mind).  It is a complex process that takes time and cannot be hurried.  Trying to hurry or using brute force with the hand usually results in injuries or even illnesses (which can result due to trauma to acupuncture channels and points on the hands).

It is crucial to practice chigong following the practice and to apply the proper medicine BEFORE and AFTER.  Some of the medicines people use are what are referred to as "bruise" medicine and are not really helpful insofar as iron palm training goes.  The traditional medicines are not usually presented openly to the public, so they remain relatively uknown.


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## zen_hydra

Do mung beans break down very quickly?  How long (on average) would a bag filled with mung beans last before they were crushed into flour?  Is there any particular property of mung beans that makes them special (as opposed to gravel or sand).


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## Phil Elmore

In theory the mung beans contain nutrients that enter the skin and are "good for you," though I don't know to what degree.  They do turn to powder over time, but how long depends on how much you use the bag.


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## chufeng

The nutrient effects of mung beans are only achieved by eating them 

The skin is an excellent barrier to most things penetrating through it. The reason that iron palm medicine works is that the alcohol carries the herbs through that barrier...and you can't have less than 25% or greater than 70% alcohol content in your medicine...less than 25% leaves too much water in the solution and will be repelled by the skin...greater than 70% will denature the proteins in the skin and stop the progress of the medicine...

It would take a very long time to pound the beans to powder...much longer than the 100 days of initial training that you would do...after 100 days you can graduate to a harder substance (sand, small pebbles)...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Phil Elmore

They ain't gonna be much good as hands after pounding gravel.


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## chufeng

Phil,

It may seem that way, but if the training is done correctly the hands don't suffer...I did iron palm training for about 5 years, every day, (sometimes twice a day) with no ill effects...but I worked up to the harder substances gradually...I didn't "slam" my hands into the bag or the bucket (spearing techniques)...I used body action and a relaxed arm and hand...
I don't have callouses...I have full sensation...and I use fine motor skills daily at work...
...and I can hit real hard, too... 

:asian:
chufeng


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *The nutrient effects of mung beans are only achieved by eating them
> 
> The skin is an excellent barrier to most things penetrating through it. The reason that iron palm medicine works is that the alcohol carries the herbs through that barrier...and you can't have less than 25% or greater than 70% alcohol content in your medicine...less than 25% leaves too much water in the solution and will be repelled by the skin...greater than 70% will denature the proteins in the skin and stop the progress of the medicine...
> 
> It would take a very long time to pound the beans to powder...much longer than the 100 days of initial training that you would do...after 100 days you can graduate to a harder substance (sand, small pebbles)...
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *



Yes. The assertion that the nutrient in the beans can enter your skin, with a layer of bag shielding the beans, is pure hog wash.  Some of the myth in the MA community is really embarrassing.

1. How effective alcohol fucntions as a transdermal carrier depends on the molecular size of the substance you are trying to deliver. Not having info on that of the chemicals in the dit-da-jou (sp), I really have no idea.  

2. Would you cite the reference/s that indicates >70% alcohol will denature proteins in the skin? This is the first time I have heard of such assertion.  On the other hand, I am aware of transdermal permeation formular that use =>70% alcohol to deliver chemicals.

Not that the 70% criteria is important. I am just curious for academic reason. 

Thanks.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *They ain't gonna be much good as hands after pounding gravel. *



That is also a myth.


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## chufeng

> Would you cite the reference/s that indicates >70% alcohol will denature proteins in the skin



My primary references for the alcohol % that denatures proteins in the skin are the lectures I received in my undergraduate program organic chemistry (Professor Leo Lim, Mount Mercy College, Cedar Rapids, IA...1984) and the lecture I received in my Master's program biochemistry (Professor Emmet Foulds, US Army Graduate Program in Anesthesia Nursing, Ft. Sam Houston, TX, 1992)...

The reason isopropyl alcohol is a 70% solution is that it is the highest concentration you can use without damaging the tissue underneath...plus if you denature the underlying dermis, you can protect the pathogens that may lie beneath the dermis. Unless you are using wood alcohol as a solvent, or grain alcohol, you would be hard pressed to find a high concentration alcohol on the market...even 151 rum is only 75%...

If you want a specific textbook reference, I'll have to go to the library... I don't have my chemistry textbooks anymore.

:asian:
chufeng


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## KennethKu

I just bought a bottle of 91% isopropyl rubbing alcohol  from K Mart. What gives?


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## chufeng

Good question....

I work in a hospital...the isopropyl alcohol that is used to decontaminate skin is 70%...

A higher % solution would be fine for a solvent OR for disinfecting surfaces of inanimate objects...

When I buy isopropyl alcohol at the drug store, I check the label and it is 70%...why K-mart is selling a higher strength is beyond me...the old "if 70% is good, 90% must be better" mentality.

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng

Kenneth,

I am including excerpts from an article in Infection Control and Hospital Epidemiology...July 2000:



> Alcohol has been used as an antiseptic since ancient times. However, the first systematic in vitro studies of the germicidal activity of ethyl alcohol against pure cultures of bacteria were performed by Koch in the early 1880s.1 In the 1890s and early 1900s, alcohol was proposed for use as a skin antiseptic.1 Early investigators discovered that alcohols must be diluted with water for maximal antimicrobial activity and that preparations containing 50% to 70% alcohol were more effective than 95% alcohol.1,2 In 1922, studies in Germany demonstrated the efficacy of an isopropyl alcohol hand rub in reducing bacterial counts on contaminated hands.3 In 1935, isopropyl alcohol was added to the American Medical Association Council on Pharmacy and Chemistrys list of new and nonofficial remedies, and disinfection of the skin was listed as one of its recommended uses.4 Using more quantitative methods, Price showed in the late 1930s that 65.5% alcohol was effective in reducing the number of bacteria on the skin.1 He subsequently recommended the use of a 3-minute wash with 70% alcohol as a preoperative hand scrub and that 70% alcohol should be used for disinfecting contaminated hands1
> The bactericidal activity of alcohols is most likely due to their ability to denature proteins.22 Alcohols are effective against most vegetative gram-positive and gram-negative bacteria. A few studies suggest that alcohol-containing products may have greater activity than antiseptic detergents against multidrug-resistant pathogens such as vancomycin-resistant enterococci and methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus, but additional evidence on this issue is needed.23-25 Alcohols have excellent activity against Mycobacterium tuberculosis, but are not active against bacterial spores. They do have activity against many fungi and a variety of viruses, including hepatitis B, human immuno-deficiency virus, enteroviruses, adenovirus, rotaviruses, and herpes simplex virus.22 Ethyl alcohol is more active than isopropyl alcohol against many viruses, except those with a lipid envelope



The reason a 70% solution is more effective is because the higher concentration does not allow for penetration of the skin...it burns the skin by denaturing it.
This editorial article was written by John M. Boyce, MD

Hope this helps.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Phil Elmore

The bag is made of canvas.  The canvous is porous.  Your skin can and does absorb certain things directly through itself, as it is also porous.

I'm not saying you're going to get any measurable benefit from it, but it does occur.


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## chufeng

Phil,

Certainly you will get powder on your hands...and it will stick because of the dit-da-jow...but the proteins need a way to cross the formidible barrier of the skin...

I'm not trying to bi-otch slap you, just sharing a little physiology and chemistry...and as I said earlier, Master Lee developed a tremendous iron palm without slapping anything.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone

Something that I always wondered about was why karateka never seem overly concerned with using medicinal preparations after smacking the hell out of a makiwara, and CMAists are big on the whole dit da jow thing...

I admit that the jow we use in Yiliquan will fix up damn near any hurtin' you have going on (used it in basic training on my feet before and after our first 12 mile road march - the next day, I was the _only_ one capable of moving about with anything resembling briskness!  Everyone else was near incapacitated!), and our iron palm training is impressive in its effects, but...

I spent the last three years backfisting and punching the concrete walls in the office building I worked in.  I managed to rack up around 300 - 500 strikes a day walking back and forth (I could get 50 in walking one way down the hall, and another 50 returning to my office, so with just a few trips I was really making progress!).

I started gradually, nothing more than a strong knock.  By the end of the three years, I was smacking it pretty firmly!  While I know that striking an immobile object is actually somewhat detrimental, at the same time my purpose was to simply "temper" my striking surfaces.

I didn't really use jow much at all, and never had any ill effects.  While my main two striking knuckles are very slightly enlarged, my hands look just fine.

I still want to do regular iron palm training, though...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng

Yiliquan1,

Striking with the knuckles (especially in a gradually increasing way) is not the same as iron palm training...the shock generated in an iron palm strike is like a wave of energy...much of that energy is dissipated in the substance you strike (that's why we don't slap solid objects) and some of it reenters your striking hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc...that's why we move up to it gradually...your hitting the wall is nothing more than callous building, completely different type of training.

We can talk more about this on Saturday...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Phil Elmore

The skin may be a "tremendous barrier," but the endless selection of topical rubs available in drugstores seem to indicate that it isn't the Great Wall of China.


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## KennethKu

Thanks for the excerpts, Chufeng.  

That explains a lot. The denaturalization of protein is in reference to what happens when bacteria/virus are killed by alcohol.  Just rubbing a =>70% Isopropyl alcohol on human skin would not cause the protein in your body to denature.  Otherwise you would have a major outbreak of tissue damage among K Mart's customers.  

When I was experimenting on transdermal formular, I have rubbed 99%  isopropyl on my skin before. It dries in nano seconds.  I have rubbed 95% ethyl alcohol (EverClear) on my skin and have drunk it too (as have millions of others).  Alcohol is partially absorbed through the mucous membrane, eg lining of your oral cavity. The scrotal skin is quite permeable though.  It is not absorbed through the other skin.  Contrary to general perception, alcohol does not carry any ingredients through your skin. Its purpose is as a solvent for those ingredients. It only deposits them across your skin. They will gradually permeate through your skin, depending on their molecular size. You can't just dissolve anything in alcohol and assume that it will permeate through the skin.  There are some chemicals that would permeate 
the skin and carry other chemicals through with them (provided that the molecular size of those chemicals is small enough.)  

In short, the alcohol acts as a solvent for the chemicals.  The permeability of the chemicals is a function of their molecular size.

(I hope I have not put anyone to sleep)


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Yiliquan1,
> 
> Striking with the knuckles (especially in a gradually increasing way) is not the same as iron palm training...the shock generated in an iron palm strike is like a wave of energy...much of that energy is dissipated in the substance you strike (that's why we don't slap solid objects) and some of it reenters your striking hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc...that's why we move up to it gradually...your hitting the wall is nothing more than callous building, completely different type of training.
> 
> We can talk more about this on Saturday...
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *



Yes. The slapping motion generates shock vibration. With slapping, it is easier to break "crispy" materials that do not flex than to break "flexible" materials (boards) that do flex.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Something that I always wondered about was why karateka never seem overly concerned with using medicinal preparations after smacking the hell out of a makiwara, and CMAists are big on the whole dit da jow thing...
> 
> I admit that the jow we use in Yiliquan will fix up damn near any hurtin' you have going on (used it in basic training on my feet before and after our first 12 mile road march - the next day, I was the only one capable of moving about with anything resembling briskness!  Everyone else was near incapacitated!), and our iron palm training is impressive in its effects, but...
> 
> I spent the last three years backfisting and punching the concrete walls in the office building I worked in.  I managed to rack up around 300 - 500 strikes a day walking back and forth (I could get 50 in walking one way down the hall, and another 50 returning to my office, so with just a few trips I was really making progress!).
> 
> I started gradually, nothing more than a strong knock.  By the end of the three years, I was smacking it pretty firmly!  While I know that striking an immobile object is actually somewhat detrimental, at the same time my purpose was to simply "temper" my striking surfaces.
> 
> I didn't really use jow much at all, and never had any ill effects.  While my main two striking knuckles are very slightly enlarged, my hands look just fine.
> 
> I still want to do regular iron palm training, though...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



By conventional wisdom, you would need someone to wipe your *** for you everyday now.  Your hands would have already turned into a pair of useless clubs.  So much for conventional wisdom.

Question: Do you know what effects the Yiliquan jow  (or any other dit da jow) has?  I have a suspicion  that dit da jow is mostly a  topical anagelsic. Looking at the common ingredients. There are camphor, menthol and may be metyl salycilate (sp), among a list of herbal ingredients. The first 3 ingredients are commonly used in topical anagelsic. (BTW, K Mart has its own brand of topical anagelsic with that 3 ingredients)  A lot of the time, people equate no pain to no damage.   It does not make sense that there are chemicals that can protect your tissue (muscle & tendon) from wear and tear trauma induced by rigorous activities. If you slam your fist against a brick wall, your knuckles are going to  bruise. There is no jow or chemicals that can prevent that.  

Many people recommend using jow BEFORE the session. I think that is a bad practice. You need pain as a feedback mechanism, so as not to severely injure yourself.  If people wreck their hands in Iron palm training, I believe it can be attributed to their use of an anagelsic before the session. With their hands numbed, they would proceed to inflict permanent tissue, tendon and bone damage, over an extended period of time.  Personally I found that it is impossible to wreck your hands to permanent injury. Long before that sets in, your hands would be hurting like hell and you would be forced to stop and wait for them to heal. That would automatically prevent permanent damage to occur.  Thus, I theorize that the use of an anagelsic before a session, is a problematic practice.


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## chufeng

Ken,

Our jow is something we make ourselves...it is a recipe that Master Chen Wing Chou passed on to Sifu Phillip Starr...

It does not have camphor, menthol, or methyl salycilate...

It is not an analgesic...

It includes a base set of 12 herbs...some people have added one or two additional herbs to it...we prepare it in ethyl alcohol, 50%...
It sits in a cool and dark place for at least six weeks before it is ready for use...it does stink.

:asian:
chufeng


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## KennethKu

Thanks for the info, Chufeng.

It would be an interesting project to perform chemical analysis to identify the specific therapeutic qualities of each of the herbs.  If I won the lottery I would sponsor a project to analyze all the herbal ingredients used in alternative medicine. (It would have to be a really huge jackpot.)


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## chufeng

Ken,

The argument about putting 95% alcohol on your skin and having it evaporate may explain ONE of the reasons that high concentration alcohol is ineffective...but, that concentration DOES denature proteins...do you think it differentiates human from non human?...the corneal layers of the epidermis are denatured, therefore the alcohol never reaches the deeper layers of the skin...hence, it is a lousy antimicrobial for decontaminating the skin...

The fact is, many things dissolve in alcohol (bacause they are lipid based) and are then made available to the tissues...

Drinking high concentration grain alcohol isn't very bright...nor is putting it on your scrotum...

Most folks who use "everclear" mix it in something...they don't do shots (at least, not for very long)  

Thanks for your feedback...

:asian:
chufeng

PS, I don't want this thread to turn into "Who's the best chemist," so, I've had my say, if you want to respond, fine...but let's keep this thread on target.


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## yilisifu

The jow doesn't do much for pain at all.  The recommended practice is to use it before and after practice.

   Measuring pain to indicate when one should slow down or stop the training temporarily is not a good method.  Damage can be done without pain being very severe at all.  Sometimes, you feel fine until you do the technique wrong and then you end up with a semi-permanent injury.  So please don't use pain as a barometer of when you should slow down.

   Karateists DID used to use medicines like this.  They are actually old Chinese recipes.  Sadly, that practice has not been continued into the modern era for the most part - but old Okinawan writings speak of it.  Some even have the actual recipes.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Ken,
> 
> The argument about putting 95% alcohol on your skin and having it evaporate may explain ONE of the reasons that high concentration alcohol is ineffective...but, that concentration DOES denature proteins...do you think it differentiates human from non human?...the corneal layers of the epidermis are denatured, therefore the alcohol never reaches the deeper layers of the skin...hence, it is a lousy antimicrobial for decontaminating the skin...
> 
> The fact is, many things dissolve in alcohol (bacause they are lipid based) and are then made available to the tissues...
> 
> Drinking high concentration grain alcohol isn't very bright...nor is putting it on your scrotum...
> 
> Most folks who use "everclear" mix it in something...they don't do shots (at least, not for very long)
> 
> Thanks for your feedback...
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng
> 
> PS, I don't want this thread to turn into "Who's the best chemist," so, I've had my say, if you want to respond, fine...but let's keep this thread on target. *



Of course this isn't about who is the better chemist. 

It is true that high concentration such as > 90% would result in rapid evaporation and lower effectiveness in antiseptic  function. 

I should have clarified in stating that the reason alcohol does not cause denaturalization of protein in human, is because it does not permeate into the tissue for denaturalization to occur.   Sorry for the misunderstanding.

LOL  the scrotal application was in reference to maximizing the efficiency of transdermal delivery of chemicals/medicine. An offhand remark.

Anyhow, getting back to the subject, using ethyl alcohol as the solvent for your Yili Jow is an ideal choice. In our transdermal delivery research, ethyl alcohol is the least agitating solvent.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *The jow doesn't do much for pain at all.  The recommended practice is to use it before and after practice.
> 
> Measuring pain to indicate when one should slow down or stop the training temporarily is not a good method.  Damage can be done without pain being very severe at all.  Sometimes, you feel fine until you do the technique wrong and then you end up with a semi-permanent injury.  So please don't use pain as a barometer of when you should slow down.
> 
> Karateists DID used to use medicines like this.  They are actually old Chinese recipes.  Sadly, that practice has not been continued into the modern era for the most part - but old Okinawan writings speak of it.  Some even have the actual recipes. *



It is true that pain alone is not the end all be all indicator of the degree of muscle/tendon injury.  Certain injury can occur and pain is felt only when the degree of injury become critical.  For example, in bodybuilding training, even when the soreness has subsided, you still need to give the body enough time to repair the tissue.  Some people would just return to exerting the muscle as soon as they feel fine.  That is detrimental to muscle growth and in severe cases, result in muscle torn. 

However, in my previous post, I was referring to Iron Palm/hand/fist training/conditioning. In such conditioning, pain is a rather sensitive and effective feedback.  You simply cannot continue to punish your fists when they hurt.  I don't see how someone can claim to punch until the knuckle bones crack or the tendon got pushed aside. That is ludiculous. You would be screaming and swearing like a drunken sailor!  

Jow recipes are a dime a dozen.  We have heard claims of jow's functions. I would like to read some documented research on its therapeutic effect.   This is not a dimissive attitude. Rather, I would love to be able to examine the science behind the claims.


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## chufeng

Ken,

When I studied TaeKwonDo (I hate to admit it, but I was in a martial arts desert at the time  it was long before my Chinese MA experience) I was told to hit the Korean version of the makiwara...the teacher had afixed a rope-wrapped piece of wood to on of the supporting posts for a wall (no give)...after ten solid punches, I had, in fact, split the skin and tendon over my knuckle...I showed the teacher; he was very happy, "That will make an awesome callous...go hit it some more" So, I hit it some more...fact is, it didn't hurt much...traumatic anesthesia...It hurt like crazy the next day, though (and I did NOT hit the makiwara at the next training session).

When I cut my forearm, accidently, I was in the first 70 or so days of iron-palm training...I didn't wan't to start over so I continued to practice and train...every slap on the bag really hurt...every block I did with that arm, during regular class, was excruciating...but I did it anyways...people can overcome the body's instinct to avoid painful stimuli...

The first example showed stupidity on my teacher's part for not understanding real makiwara training and stupidity on my part for hitting the darn thing after I injured myself...

The second example had no lasting ill effects...some might call it stupid...however, I used overcoming the pain as another training tool.

Regards...
chufeng:asian:


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## chufeng

Actually, authentic jow recipes are not so common...emphasis, authentic...

I'd be happy to send you a list of our ingredients...you can mix a batch and analyze what's actually in it at the molecular level...

The claims that Master Chen made were that the jow increased protective and healing qi to the areas it was used on...he also said it helped prevent blood clots from forming...

How do you prove the first two claims scientifically?

But, if you're serious about looking at what is actually in the solution, I'm willing to help you by providing our ingredients list.

:asian:
chufeng


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## yilisifu

Just don't drink it.....


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Ken,
> 
> When I studied TaeKwonDo (I hate to admit it, but I was in a martial arts desert at the time  it was long before my Chinese MA experience) I was told to hit the Korean version of the makiwara...the teacher had afixed a rope-wrapped piece of wood to on of the supporting posts for a wall (no give)...after ten solid punches, I had, in fact, split the skin and tendon over my knuckle...I showed the teacher; he was very happy, "That will make an awesome callous...go hit it some more" So, I hit it some more...fact is, it didn't hurt much...traumatic anesthesia...It hurt like crazy the next day, though (and I did NOT hit the makiwara at the next training session).
> 
> When I cut my forearm, accidently, I was in the first 70 or so days of iron-palm training...I didn't wan't to start over so I continued to practice and train...every slap on the bag really hurt...every block I did with that arm, during regular class, was excruciating...but I did it anyways...people can overcome the body's instinct to avoid painful stimuli...
> 
> The first example showed stupidity on my teacher's part for not understanding real makiwara training and stupidity on my part for hitting the darn thing after I injured myself...
> 
> The second example had no lasting ill effects...some might call it stupid...however, I used overcoming the pain as another training tool.
> 
> Regards...
> chufeng:asian: *



Yes. After the initial pain, the endorphin kicks in and you can keep on going for the rest of the session.  I can really rip a layer of skin off my knuckles if I am not careful.  We all have been there where our ignorance and bravado took the better of us and we went ahead ignoring the cuts and wounds. The result is a blood stained canvas bag and LONGER time off for recuperation.

However, the next day, things are not the same anymore.  By now the bruise and injury have manifested. Further agitating the wound would be excruxiatingly painful.  It is arguable that for some people they can continue to proceed with the same intensity. My experience is the longer your ignore your injury, the nastier the wound becomes and the longer time out needed to recovery. A bad move, all in all. It is better to take care of the small wound ASAP. B/c then it would only take the shortest time out for healing.  Granted, some people might forge ahead, and damn the torpedo.  (Hell, afterall that is how successful special forces recruits make it through the selection process).   I would say that 99% of the IronPalm trainees would either find the pain from the injury intolerable or simply ease back due to inability to train with the required intensity, as a result of the injury.    I realize that this a theoretical argument in support of my assertion that the deforming and detrimental side effect of punching gravel bag is not a definite outcome as generally perceived.  Hence is not an absolute.

Yes, part of the training and conditioning is to overcome pain. However there are different types of pain.  Not all can be overcome. And may result in permanent injury if attempted.  I am sure you are well aware of this point.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Actually, authentic jow recipes are not so common...emphasis, authentic...
> 
> I'd be happy to send you a list of our ingredients...you can mix a batch and analyze what's actually in it at the molecular level...
> 
> The claims that Master Chen made were that the jow increased protective and healing qi to the areas it was used on...he also said it helped prevent blood clots from forming...
> 
> How do you prove the first two claims scientifically?
> 
> But, if you're serious about looking at what is actually in the solution, I'm willing to help you by providing our ingredients list.
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *



There are 12 compounds involved. You can have an assay done to list the chemicals in the solution. (Which would be more than 12 for sure.) That would be the simple part.  However, to identify the therapeutic effect of each one, as well as all of them in synergy, would take resources (monetary and expertise) that are well beyond my scope. Of course, being a professional in medicine, you are aware of how much resources needed.  On the bright side, such a project might result in discovering a new treatment  for arthiritis, for example.

As to prove the claims by Master Chen, I have no idea how to proceed.

In reference to Yiliquan1's description of how it works, I find that skeptically intriguing.  The reason is, there is only one class of chemical that can deliver such effect.  It is a controlled substance, hence illegal to possess and administer. And even with this chemical, applying it transdermally would take more than 24 hrs for the effect to be noticeable.  It needs to build up in blood concentration in order for its anti-fatigue and enhanced recovery effect to be noticeable. We have researched and experimented successfully in applying such chemicals via transdermal delivery. The result is nothing short of breathtaking, in terms of performance gain and accelerated recuperation/recovery. Needless to say, there are side-effects. Testicle atrophy, to name one. lol (Happily, we have also discovered a remedy to that nasty side effect.) Nevertheless, it is a controlled substance and illegal to administer. So it is a moot point.  I won't discuss it at the forum, but I am sure you know what chemicals I am referring to.

I don't want this to be turn into " are you calling me a liar?" kind of nonsense.   But you do have a recipe that sounds rather amazing.  I am happy for you.


----------



## chufeng

I did not want to insinuate that you were calling anyone a liar...far from it...I thought you might be interested in looking at the recipe.

I agree with you that most off the shelf recipes are really designed to act as temporary analgesics to relieve overworked or injured joints and muscles...not the type of jow one needs to employ when doing real iron palm training.

The biggest risk of injury is not from physical injury, but injury to the energy system...six meridians either start or stop in the hand. That's half of the paired acupuncture meridians...Master Chen stated that one would risk stagnation of qi if one did iron palm without the jow...

I once questioned the wisdom of some of the things that were handed down and I cut myself rather badly as a result...I now do things as they were transmitted...I use the jow before and after and also do some qigong after iron-palm training...does it make a difference??? I'm not willing to test it to find out (that is, I'm not willing to see what ill effects might occur if I did not use the jow).

Regards
:asian:
chufeng


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I did not want to insinuate that you were calling anyone a liar...far from it...I thought you might be interested in looking at the recipe.
> 
> I agree with you that most off the shelf recipes are really designed to act as temporary analgesics to relieve overworked or injured joints and muscles...not the type of jow one needs to employ when doing real iron palm training.
> 
> The biggest risk of injury is not from physical injury, but injury to the energy system...six meridians either start or stop in the hand. That's half of the paired acupuncture meridians...Master Chen stated that one would risk stagnation of qi if one did iron palm without the jow...
> 
> I once questioned the wisdom of some of the things that were handed down and I cut myself rather badly as a result...I now do things as they were transmitted...I use the jow before and after and also do some qigong after iron-palm training...does it make a difference??? I'm not willing to test it to find out (that is, I'm not willing to see what ill effects might occur if I did not use the jow).
> 
> Regards
> :asian:
> chufeng *



Regarding energy system, ie the meridians that originate from or terminate at the hands, it is out of my league. I have heard contradictory evidence regarding this subject. For instance, I have read about GV26 (correct me if I remember the point incorrectly) that lies between the nose and the upper lip, which if stimulated with a needle, can revive the patient (human or animals) suffering from a cardiac arrest. On the surface it sounds like voodoo. The fact is, stimulating that point with a needle or syringe, results in the release of adrenaline.  This proves that the concept of energy system and meridians is not totally a  Voodoo craft.  On the other hand, according to the meridians, stabbing your hands into a sandbucket would harm your eyes.  Over the ages, at least tens of thousands of Karateka have done exactly just that and they can see just fine.


----------



## Matt Stone

Years ago I started trying to train in Iron Palm according to the methods that my teacher, Yilisifu, handed down to us.  Unfortunately, however, I didn't have the medicine to use before and after training.

So, I figured (rather naively) that I could just do the hand conditioning without the medicine - or the qigong for that matter.

I began using a sandbag, and started doing the palm strikes dictated by the course of instruction.  Within 3 days, having not done qigong nor used the medicine, I began having explosive, nearly uncontrollable bowel movements!  Literally as soon as I started doing the qigong, the diarrhea abated...

When I spoke to one of my seniors about it, I was chastised and told that, had I remembered, that particular eventuality was exactly described as a side effect of incorrect training.

Because of a lack of access to the herbs necessary to make the medicine, I have thusfar never returned to Iron Palm practice.  However, the lesson I learned remains with me...

Do what you are told.  Somebody before you didn't, and now they know what _not_ to do.  Questioning things is good - it develops insight and understanding.  However, questioning is not necessarily disobeying...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng

I agree that much of acupuncture has a neurohumoral component...but that does not explain all of the effects seen...there is a qi component, as well...can't prove it exists...but I've experienced it first-hand...

The skeptic (with regard to TCM) tends to dismiss things and asks that the proponent of TCM prove the claim...hard to do, many times, since the traditional teaching of TCM is structured around a completely different metaphysical framework...

I would like to see some hard scientific studies done (Non-biased...structured in such a way so as not lean towards one conclusion or another) because many of the studies to date have been flawed.

Then there is the issue of "measuring" qi...
How do we do that when we don't even know what it is?

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## yilisifu

"Explosive diarrhea."  Thanks for sharing that........


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *"Explosive diarrhea."  Thanks for sharing that........ *



Like putting three pounds of C4 into a five gallon bucket of Hershey's best chocolate syrup...

KA-BOOM!!!!

I'll never forget to do qigong after Iron Palm training again...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## ECYili

Mmmmmm great visial Matt!

 I know when I was practicing the cranes beak strike.  I was doing 100 strikes with each hand a day to the slap bag.  In a week or two I noticed that my eyes were getting very tired and they would hurt, I also would have a hard time focusing.  Once I told Tim and he gave me some things to do and  took a break from striking the bag my eyes almost immediatly got better.

dan


----------



## Taiji fan

chufeng wrote 





> I agree that much of acupuncture has a neurohumoral component


 Uh? neurohumoral? what's that?


----------



## chufeng

It has to do with nervous system and hormonal systems...

For instance: someone scares you, unexpectedly, your feel a rubberiness in your legs and your heart starts to race...The fear mechanism stimulated the sympathetic nervous system which then sent signals to key areas of the body, to include the adrenal glands,...peripheral vessels dilate (that's the rubbery feeling), pupils dilate, hearing becomes more acute (you hear your breath and heart beat and are worried its loud enough for others to hear), blood flow to the gut becomes a trickle...adrenalin (humoral response) is the hormone that sustains the initial reaction initiated by the sympathetic nervous system...

Another example:
Someone is experiencing chronic pain...
stimulation by acupuncture can help release endorphins (hormone with morphine-like qualities) and reduce some of the discomfort...likewise, it may induce a relaxation response and inhibitory pathways in the central nervous system are activated. Stimulation of some nerve elicits a hormonal response (neurohumoral)...

What is intriguing is the specificity of the points and the effects they have on target organs...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Taiji fan

ok.. thanks Chufeng....I haven't heard that term before.



> What is intriguing is the specificity of the points and the effects they have on target organs...


 ever tried abdominal massage?  I have had treatment and studied this a little and it was quite interesting, while being massaged in the liver area I started to lose my temper and start waffling about 'old stuff'.  During shiatsu treatment getting kidney and bladder meridians worked on I got a really salty taste........oops sorry, wandered off the thread.......it is all very interesting stuff


----------



## yilisifu

"Rising liver fire" can cause irritability and extreme anger can injure the liver.  So the part about getting abdominal massage over that area and feeling cranky makes sense.

The kidneys and bladder belong to the water element whose "taste" is salty.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Taiji fan _.... ever tried abdominal massage?  I have had treatment and studied this a little and it was quite interesting, while being massaged in the liver area I started to lose my temper ....



I got the same effect too. But I believe it is called "a kick in the solar plexus".


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I agree that much of acupuncture has a neurohumoral component...but that does not explain all of the effects seen...there is a qi component, as well...can't prove it exists...but I've experienced it first-hand...
> 
> The skeptic (with regard to TCM) tends to dismiss things and asks that the proponent of TCM prove the claim...hard to do, many times, since the traditional teaching of TCM is structured around a completely different metaphysical framework...
> 
> I would like to see some hard scientific studies done (Non-biased...structured in such a way so as not lean towards one conclusion or another) because many of the studies to date have been flawed.
> 
> Then there is the issue of "measuring" qi...
> How do we do that when we don't even know what it is?
> 
> :asian:
> chufeng *



I would settle for consistently reproduceable result and training that would yield similar performance in the majority of the trainees.  

Even when we do not understand certain things, but if they can be identified and reproduced or observed consistently, then we can at least document and record them as true.


----------



## Matt Stone

As far as Iron Palm medicine goes, I have used it for years to fix all manner of injuries from training, and I use it on my kids occasionally as well...

Healing is finished in at least triple time, every time.  Which is why I continue to use it!

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## KennethKu

Why would you feel comfortable in administering it to your children?  Do we know if there is any chemical or compound that might be harmful to young children?   I would not apply any thing to young children without knowing about possible side-effect.  Eventhough it is only topical, a mix of compounds that alter the normal healing process in human "might" have unknown effect on young children.  

On the other hand, I suppose you can point to the billion of Chinese who have not reported any ill side effect from herbs/jow's.  Still, I would be extremely cautious.


----------



## chufeng

What Yiliquan1 meant to say was that he cautiously applies it to his children... 

Percutaneous absorption is  a slow process, at best, so I doubt that it presents a large risk to children...

Not so, with certain steroidal creams...

But the herbal preparations are very dilute, compared to the refined topical pharmaceuticals...

chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone

My son had a bruise.  I took a cotton swab, dipped it in the jow, and spread it over the bruise.  Less than two or three actual drops were applied.

Somehow, I doubt it'll damage him.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## yilisifu

The stuff really is remarkable.  I've never had anyone complain of any side-effects.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by ECYili _
> *Mmmmmm great visial Matt!
> 
> I know when I was practicing the cranes beak strike.  I was doing 100 strikes with each hand a day to the slap bag.  In a week or two I noticed that my eyes were getting very tired and they would hurt, I also would have a hard time focusing.  Once I told Tim and he gave me some things to do and  took a break from striking the bag my eyes almost immediatly got better.
> 
> dan *



Has that occurred to everyone who practiced crane beak strike?


----------



## Milquetoast

Hi, I just saw this thread now, and it was very interesting. I had a few questions:

1. Does anyone practice abstinence during the first 100 days of iron shirt or iron palm training?

2. Does anyone practice soft or internal-style iron shirt training? At what stage do you start? e.g. should I be able to experience small circulation before I attempt this? What's involved? I want to be able to take more impact on my body.

3. What happens when you slap the air?? Would you feel something from 30cm away? And how do you train by slapping air? I mean, is the person so advanced that the air feels like a viscous medium that can be slapped? I have heard of people doing iron palm training by slapping water. Is  slapping water a beginning or intermediate stage?


----------



## yilisifu

In Yilichuan we strongly recommend abstinence during the first part of our chigong program (not necessarily iron palm/shirt training).  This lasts for the first 100 days.

It isn't absolutely necessary that you have already completed the Microcosmic Orbit prior to starting iron palmshirt, but it's a good idea as you'll get better results.  Some students combined the two; getting through the small circulation during their iron shirt training.

As for slapping the air, we don't do that at all...slapping water isn't necessarily a conditioning exercise, but it's considered rather advanced.

Chufeng is extraordinarily skilled at our unique form of absorbing/resisting blows known as the "Yili Shield."


----------



## chufeng

My reference to slapping air was concerning Master Arthur Lee of the Fut Ga Kun...He slapped air and developed a tremendous Iron Palm...you could check on that through his son Harlan Lee, I don't know if they have a web site, or not.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## yilisifu

I've seen the results of Sifu Lee's iron palm "slap."  Very impressive.....left a real impression on the other guy, too!


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Milquetoast _
> Hi, I just saw this thread now, and it was very interesting. I had a few questions:
> 
> 1. Does anyone practice abstinence during the first 100 days of iron shirt or iron palm training?


Unless you are overly sexually active, I don't see how that has anything to do with Iron Palm training.  Or, may be you can't wack off with a swollen palm?  I don't know.



> 2. Does anyone practice soft or internal-style iron shirt training? At what stage do you start? e.g. should I be able to experience small circulation before I attempt this? What's involved? I want to be able to take more impact on my body.


The funny thing is, Iron Shirt is the Asian's version of X-Men expertise, in the same league as X-Ray vision, scaling wall on your hands, dashing across rivers w/o wetting your toes etc.  It is the stuff you normally find in fictions.

I must admit that I am surprised that there are Westerners practicing it.  I am sure there is a gap between the version fantasized in the fictions vs the one being practiced.



> 3. What happens when you slap the air?? Would you feel something from 30cm away? And how do you train by slapping air? I mean, is the person so advanced that the air feels like a viscous medium that can be slapped? I have heard of people doing iron palm training by slapping water. Is  slapping water a beginning or intermediate stage?



I am certain that you would achieve much higher effectiveness slapping water than slapping air. The body strength and mass increase when subjected to progressive resistance.  Water certainly offers higher resistance than air. This is not to say that you wouldn't see any result slapping air. It is just not as effective.

With all due respect to Mr Starr, slapping water is entry level training.


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *With all due respect to Mr Starr, slapping water is entry level training. *



Curious...  In what respects do you consider slapping water basic?

My understanding is, that while being a simplistic approach (akin to taking a 50 pound bag of rice and slapping it until it is flour), the results are startlingly advanced.

Slapping a tub of water until you are capable of emptying the entire thing with one slap is nearly impossible from a realistic standpoint.  The _attempt_ however, on a continually repeated basis, will certainly develop quite a powerful strike in time.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## yilisifu

Fill a large, old-fashioned washtub basin with water.  With a single slap, empty it (or nearly so) of the water.  If this is entry level material, I bow to you.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Curious...  In what respects do you consider slapping water basic?
> 
> My understanding is, that while being a simplistic approach (akin to taking a 50 pound bag of rice and slapping it until it is flour), the results are startlingly advanced.
> 
> Slapping a tub of water until you are capable of emptying the entire thing with one slap is nearly impossible from a realistic standpoint.  The attempt however, on a continually repeated basis, will certainly develop quite a powerful strike in time.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



Mr. Stone,

After rereading the posts, I still can't find any one mentioning emptying the entire tub of water with hand slap.  The poster originally asked about slapping water as "doing iron palm *training* by slapping water".   In that context, slapping water is an entry level training.  Forgive me for repeatingly stating the obvious. Water offers much higher resistance than air, but offers a much safer training medium comparing to other materials such as sand, gravels, or iron dust.  

When I was a teenager, my dad showed me a text of Iron Palm training. In which, it describes using sand, then gravels, and finally using iron dust as training media.  According to the text,  your Iron Palm training is completed when you can empty the bucket of iron dust with one single slap.  As an anticlimax, the author concluded the book with a story about an Iron Palm master murdered at the hand of a petty thief because he didn't think much of the petty punk with a knife in light of his mighty Iron Palm. While the author's intent was in the right place, but as a teen, I figured back then to hell with this Iron Palm crap, I would just carry a sharp knife instead. Oh well.

Your statement, "Slapping a tub of water until you are capable of emptying the entire thing with one slap" is a description of achieving nirvana in Iron Palm.


----------



## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Fill a large, old-fashioned washtub basin with water.  With a single slap, empty it (or nearly so) of the water.  If this is entry level material, I bow to you. *



Mr Starr, 

As I have stated just now, I was referring to slapping water as *training* for Iron Palm, not as a test for Iron Palm.  Needless to say that emptying such quantity of water with a single palm strike would require tremenduous amount of explosive force.  Such result from an Iron Palm strike has yet to be properly documented.


----------



## Petey

I use a leather Kan-Shu bag filled with 1/4" steel hunting shot. I made it from a little girls pocket book I picked up at a second hand store. Also, aside from using dit da jow, you might also want to consider incorporating dietary supplements containing calcium and glucosamine(aid in bone/joint recovery) into your training. Further, striking a large stone or anvil along with knuckle push-ups is also effective


----------



## 7starmantis

Using steel hunting shot or metal "BB's" should only be used by an advanced practitioner of iron palm, I most definitely would not recommend starting with steel shot. Sand is awesome to start with; I don't know that water would really even do enough to be considered for a starting individual though.


7sm


----------



## Skankatron Ltd

Great post everyone. I'm finding this stuff most informative. I have a question about fingertip training and vision....
I have heard and believe that fingertip training will affect vision, but in what way? What kind of training (like will fingertip pushups do it?)? I've also heard tell that there are herbs that can counteract this. Would these herbs simply be dit da jow or is there another solution used? I'm really interested in developing an iron palm and would like to go the whole way (meaning fingertips as well).
In conclusion, I like martial arts. Specially Tai Chi.


----------



## Skankatron Ltd

Hello? I know this thread has been dead a while... I'll start a new one if this don't work.


----------



## Darksoul

Hey Skankatron,

-I've been reading a bit about training the gripping power of the hands and fingers. Not directly Iron Palm, but related, and important in many ma's. Especially in my style, since we have many open hand techs and hooking techs that require strong hands and fingers. But as has been mentioned in this thread, the training should also include the rest of the body. It should all run together. I'm still rather new to training in Kung-Fu, still working on basics. More than anything, just waiting for my hours to change and the weather to warm up. But I might suggest using Google to look for Iron Palm training sites, or find a good book to use as reference material. Though I certainly would caution anyone to learn from a teacher when actually beginning the training. 


A---)


----------



## Skankatron Ltd

Right. I think I will hang back on the iron palm training 'till I get some first hand instruction/advice and have time to get the proper jow and materials necessary. Kalamazoo college demands most of my time, so....
 But! I still would like to know if there are adverse affects to practicing fingertip pushups. Do I need to worry about it affecting my eyes or is that only with striking that it becomes a problem? I highly value my hands, and i guess i kinda value my eyes too. also, does anyone know if the eye thing is permanent?


----------



## 7starmantis

From all my medical training and CMA training, I've found no evidence that fingertip training effects the eyes or eyesight at all. I've also found no one who believes it does who is able to provide any type of source for their beliefs. 

7sm


----------



## Skankatron Ltd

Well it has to do with the meridians. There are (I'm not COMPLETELY sure about this) three meridians in the hands that run all the way to the fingertips. Out of these, there are two that connect up to points right next to the eyes. If you don't know/beleive what I'm talking about, look up some accupuncture stuff. But, if no one's had any problems, that's good enough for me. If I notice something wrong, I'll look into it more.


----------



## 7starmantis

I know about the meridians, but coming from a western medical viewpoint (paramedic) I can't see how it could affect eyesight. I've never seen a case of it either. Coming from a chinese medicine standpoint, I still have not heard that claimed or proven.

7sm


----------



## Skankatron Ltd

Hmm.... It's not beyond the realm of finite possibility that it was a well constructed lie to detract people from studying iron palm (iron fingers?). Like carrots _helping_ eyesight and bat's eyes in pockets causing invisibility.
 (The first was used in WW2 to fool the germans into thinking they (allies) didn't have radar, the second came from the 'golden dawn' obscuring their magickal practices by putting obscure ingredients and actions in).






 Bat's eyes. Rediculous.


----------



## jkd friend

In a shaolin book I read about secret technics they said that they go all out and break their hands to become like iron and countiuesously break their palms to become briddle even to pain.---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------jkd friend----------------------------------


----------



## Shrewsbury

I wouldn't worry about the eye sight, but rather what you are doing to your nerve endings, and blood flow. 

This training, in my opinion, is not such a good idea, and your time could be spent on much better things that could have long lasting and positive effects, rather than immediate effects that seem to benefit you, but in the long run are really not needed.

again, no offense intended, just my experience, and yes I have trained in iron palm and iron shirt.


----------



## tyciol

The idea of rolling a metal bar down the shins is interesting. My main worry would be to not desensitize the nerves, it is important to feel pain when hurt, otherwise one day the shin bone snaps and you never fight again

In terms of doing this, doing deadlifts where you pull against your shin should have an effect like this, if you use those weird roller bars, right? I like the sound of that!

It is like a foam roller, maybe wrap that around a barbell.


----------



## Ch'iP'ingTaoSifu

Matt Stone said:


> Years ago I started trying to train in Iron Palm according to the methods that my teacher, Yilisifu, handed down to us.  Unfortunately, however, I didn't have the medicine to use before and after training.
> 
> So, I figured (rather naively) that I could just do the hand conditioning without the medicine - or the qigong for that matter.
> 
> I began using a sandbag, and started doing the palm strikes dictated by the course of instruction.  Within 3 days, having not done qigong nor used the medicine, I began having explosive, nearly uncontrollable bowel movements!  Literally as soon as I started doing the qigong, the diarrhea abated...
> 
> When I spoke to one of my seniors about it, I was chastised and told that, had I remembered, that particular eventuality was exactly described as a side effect of incorrect training.
> 
> Because of a lack of access to the herbs necessary to make the medicine, I have thusfar never returned to Iron Palm practice.  However, the lesson I learned remains with me...
> 
> Do what you are told.  Somebody before you didn't, and now they know what _not_ to do.  Questioning things is good - it develops insight and understanding.  However, questioning is not necessarily disobeying...
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian:





chufeng said:


> I did not want to insinuate that you were calling anyone a liar...far from it...I thought you might be interested in looking at the recipe.
> 
> I agree with you that most off the shelf recipes are really designed to act as temporary analgesics to relieve overworked or injured joints and muscles...not the type of jow one needs to employ when doing real iron palm training.
> 
> The biggest risk of injury is not from physical injury, but injury to the energy system...six meridians either start or stop in the hand. That's half of the paired acupuncture meridians...Master Chen stated that one would risk stagnation of qi if one did iron palm without the jow...
> 
> I once questioned the wisdom of some of the things that were handed down and I cut myself rather badly as a result...I now do things as they were transmitted...I use the jow before and after and also do some qigong after iron-palm training...does it make a difference??? I'm not willing to test it to find out (that is, I'm not willing to see what ill effects might occur if I did not use the jow).
> 
> Regards
> :asian:
> chufeng



I'm extremely interested in acquiring the herbal formula mentioned.  I have been training under a Chinese doctor, and have more than twenty years of Kung Fu experience.  I would also be willing to trade a sprain or Iron Palm formula in exchange.


----------



## JadeDragon3

Make sure you have a good teacher and a good jow.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

What happen to old days of:

Kicking Tires
Kicking a Sand Bag(Heavy bag)
Kicking a Tree



tyciol said:


> The idea of rolling a metal bar down the shins is interesting. My main worry would be to not desensitize the nerves, it is important to feel pain when hurt, otherwise one day the shin bone snaps and you never fight again
> 
> In terms of doing this, doing deadlifts where you pull against your shin should have an effect like this, if you use those weird roller bars, right? I like the sound of that!
> 
> It is like a foam roller, maybe wrap that around a barbell.


----------



## Yoshiyahu

One thing to be cautious of is when you use dit da jow. To not rub your fingers in your eyes for a couple of days. If you have to touch your eyes please use a kleenex. Because even after you scrub your hands and clean them a little of dit da jow is still on your hands.


Not a good idea to drink or place dit da jow in your eyes...bad bad idea...





Skankatron Ltd said:


> Great post everyone. I'm finding this stuff most informative. I have a question about fingertip training and vision....
> I have heard and believe that fingertip training will affect vision, but in what way? What kind of training (like will fingertip pushups do it?)? I've also heard tell that there are herbs that can counteract this. Would these herbs simply be dit da jow or is there another solution used? I'm really interested in developing an iron palm and would like to go the whole way (meaning fingertips as well).
> In conclusion, I like martial arts. Specially Tai Chi.


----------



## CMyers0323

While not necessarily the  Slapping water method you mentioned. I have this in relation to a "water palm". It's a Snake piercing palm exercise. 

Also the Slapping water method has a story








						The Legend Of Tai Kwei [Shaolin Slapping Water Technique]
					

The story of a young man named Tai Kwei training in Shaolin Kung Fu and learning unbelievable power through the practice of slapping water.



					www.lvshaolin.com


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