# Uselessness of kata in the real world!



## scottie (Aug 19, 2011)

I am a member of a mostly Isshinryu Facebook Chat group. A guy that I respect as a Martial Artist asked a question. "what role if any does Kata play in your Martial Arts Training." Of coarse that started a huge debate about the Uselessness of kata in the real world. Every thing you don't walk with your hands down to you don't walk with your hands in a boxing position. To it hurts my MMA and point fighting. "No Kata no Karate" (which I like) to on and on. I know this is a dead horse, but most of you here know more about Karate than I may ever know. So I don't care about all kata are useless I want to hear all the Why's  and How it helps.   scottie


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 19, 2011)

Every self-defense technique I've seen and been taught in Isshin-Ryu can be seen in the kata.  It's nothing more than practicing writing your A,B,C,s until you can learn to write actual words with them.


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## Victor Smith (Aug 19, 2011)

IMO individuals who find kata useless have been incorrectly trained. The brief time I trained with Sherman Harrill from 94 to his death, maybe 60 hours at clinics, he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata. All used to drop someone in every sort of circumstance. Likewise the 'bunkai' I received from Tristan Sutrisno and his father's shotokan studied in Japan in the 1930's has innumerable 'bunkai' all designed to do the same. Ditto for my studies in Chinese arts and tai chi chaun.

IMO the central focus of kata is development of technique force and speed, Application studies work on how every of those movements can break an attacker (figuratively).

If there's no kata there's no karate (as karate is Okinawan). Not to dis other answers they're just not karate no matter what name they use.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2011)

perhaps the real answer is: Maybe YOUR kata is useless.


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## Nomad (Aug 19, 2011)

Have a look at Iain Abernethy's stuff; he posts tons of videos on Youtube and his website on the practical applications of karate kata, and I'm a pretty big fan of his.  

There are plenty of reasons why kata have become somewhat disconnected from real combat, from philosophical & political decisions made by Funakoshi and others following WWII to common training methods to distorted views of how fighting works (often based on the training methods above), to a very rapid spread of information of dubious depth, but it's all there in the kata... you may just have to change your perceptions on what and how the kata are teaching you.


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## seasoned (Aug 19, 2011)

Useless to those that don't understand the applications within the kata. I don't blame the younger generations        understanding of the kata, because for the most part, they only know what *they* were taught. Learn one kata application, and it can translate into a pattern for many many techniques. Therein lies the _usefulness_.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 19, 2011)

Exactly so, gentlemen.  The analogy I have always used for kata is that they are a toolbox of techniques for you to use when a need for them arises.  The more skilled you are, the more uses you can put a given 'tool' to.

It ever befuddles me that people still are being trained in such a way as they do not understand that kata are, at their deepest foundation, a training tool for techniques and circumstances.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 19, 2011)

I will say this; I have never, ever, heard my sensei asked a question about kata which started _"when would I use this move in real life"_ which for which he did not have an answer, and a practical demonstration, which made perfect sense when seen.  From the dumping movement in Wansu to the evasions in Naihanchi and the X-block and crane stances in Chinto; every one of them has a (in fact, many) practical applications which absolutely can be used _'for real'_.  That doesn't mean I am able to pick the techniques out and use them at will; but that's why I am a student.  I see them used by my sensei, the way he demonstrates it is not forced or contrived or faked; it all makes sense and works.

Look at it another way - what self-defense move could you imagine doing that is NOT in the various kata?  I can't think of one.  If someone shows me a punch, kick, block, evasion, trap, armbar, whatever, I can generally point to the kata or katas in which it can be found.  Man, it's like having a dictionary right there with you!

When Okinawan master developed or modified kata for their systems, they did it on the basis of intense study in what we would nowadays call 'body mechanics' and practical experience, combined with their own intelligence.  When they demonstrated their kata for others, nobody stood back and said _"Wow, that's pretty, it's nice to look at, it must be a good kata."_  No, they picked it apart.  Why do you do this, what's that for?  The soke in question had to explain and be able to demonstrate that they had intent behind every move in their kata, and had to demonstrate that it worked.  Kata wasn't a dance, it was an instruction book.

Live and let live.  If people don't want to do kata, don't see the point of it, fine and dandy.  I love kata (Kusanku continues to murder me, but oh well) and I do see the point.


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## jks9199 (Aug 19, 2011)

There are different types of kata.

There are kata that are nothing more than sequences of motions for exercise or convenience of teaching or practicing them.  There are kata that are demonstrations, kind of like military marching.  And there are kata that are repositories of the lessons of a system of fighting.

The first type of kata are along the lines of drills, exercises and shadow boxing, as well as things like yoga.  They are often built of practical combative tools, but you wouldn't likely think of using them exactly or even closely to the exercise.  For example, we've got a 9 set punching drill which could be called a kata.  You wouldn't expect to sit down in front of somebody, take up a H-stance, and proceed to throw the punches in sequence without any stepping, right?  Nor would you necessarily look for a yoga sequence to directly have combat application -- but the strength and flexibility gained would.

I picked military marching on purpose as an example outside the martial arts for the second type of kata.  There was a time when close order drill was an important element of combat; practicing close order drill today recalls that era.  In the same way, there are kata that recall historic events and are built from techniques and the accounts of what happened.  There are other kata (XMA kata are an infamous example...) that are nothing but showpieces.  The idea is you're showing what you can do, your athleticism and skill.  They're built from real (or sort of real in the case of some of the XMA stuff) fighting principles and techniques, but they don't have immediate functional application outside that role.

I think the final type is what the OP is really asking about.  In some cases, they're functional self defense or combat moves directly from the kata, right as is.  In other cases, the kata contains one or more underlying principles of movement or combat.  Some of these kata contain every move of the fighting system; others are only an overview, kind of an encyclopedia or Cliff's Notes of the style.


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## seasoned (Aug 19, 2011)

The older the system, the less wasted movement there will be within the kata. Okinawan GoJu kata for example, have no high kicks and are not done, as Bill stated, to look _pretty_. When you start putting in useless blocks and guard position's, it makes the whole kata useless. We practice our kata and drills for muscle memory. Everyone should know that in the heat of battle your training takes over, with NO time to think. Consequently, what you do day in and day out, will come out when you most need it, good or bad..........


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## Flying Crane (Aug 19, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Live and let live. If people don't want to do kata, don't see the point of it, fine and dandy. I love kata (Kusanku continues to murder me, but oh well) and I do see the point.



amen.


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## Omar B (Aug 19, 2011)

Kata useless in the real world?  Sure, but nobody's gonna do kata in a real life self defense situation.  What kata are, are sets, sequences, proper form and proper movment so that you can fight effectively in the real world.  

The Pentatonic scale, aeolian mode, lydian mode, etc are not music and don't sound like music.  But I practice my scales and modes, because it makes my actual guitar playing better.  Same principle.


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## RoninSoul (Aug 20, 2011)

Blaa Blaa Blaa What about the beauty and tradition of kata? Is there no room in today's world for these things? Blaa Blaa Blaa


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## Black Belt Jedi (Aug 20, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> IMO individuals who find kata useless have been incorrectly trained. The brief time I trained with Sherman Harrill from 94 to his death, maybe 60 hours at clinics, he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata. All used to drop someone in every sort of circumstance. Likewise the 'bunkai' I received from Tristan Sutrisno and his father's shotokan studied in Japan in the 1930's has innumerable 'bunkai' all designed to do the same. Ditto for my studies in Chinese arts and tai chi chaun.
> 
> IMO the central focus of kata is development of technique force and speed, Application studies work on how every of those movements can break an attacker (figuratively).
> 
> If there's no kata there's no karate (as karate is Okinawan). Not to dis other answers they're just not karate no matter what name they use.



I agree to what you say. I remember back in the black belt magazine forum, one poster posted a rant on saying that kata is useless (not sure if he's being serious or trolling). In my perspective, I say that he's not at fault in disliking kata, it's the fault on the Sensei for not teaching him right. 

Kata is the soul of Karate. It is important to understand the bunkai, to understand what these templates do against acts of physical violence. Since the last decade the Martial Arts world is changing little by little when many scholars and teachers are upgrading their learning and going back to the classical roots of Karate. Many of us study the works of many scholar warriors such as Iain Abernethy, Patrick McCarthy, Lawrence Kane, Kris Wilder and Marc Macyoung. They are filled with information on Kata Bunkai.


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## scottie (Aug 20, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> perhaps the real answer is: Maybe YOUR kata is useless.


a lot of you hit on my comment. "if you think katas are useless then for you they are." thanks for the feed back.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2011)

scottie said:


> I am a member of a mostly Isshinryu Facebook Chat group. A guy that I respect as a Martial Artist asked a question. "what role if any does Kata play in your Martial Arts Training." Of coarse that started a huge debate about the Uselessness of kata in the real world. Every thing you don't walk with your hands down to you don't walk with your hands in a boxing position. To it hurts my MMA and point fighting. "No Kata no Karate" (which I like) to on and on. I know this is a dead horse, but most of you here know more about Karate than I may ever know. So I don't care about all kata are useless I want to hear all the Why's and How it helps. scottie



There are katas in the arts that I train in.  I like some of them, others I'm not so fond of. LOL.  In any case, I do them, I train them, I teach them.  The kata debate is never ending.  IMO, I view it as, to each his own.  If you like them, great.  If you hate them, great.  Now, I'm not as into them as some are, meaning, no, I dont eat, sleep and breath kata. LOL.  I do feel that they're one piece of the puzzle, meaning that IMO, kata alone, isn't the answer.  I feel that you still need to spar and train things with some sort of aliveness and resistance.  Yes, this can be done with kata.  But, in order for that to happen, the people teaching the kata, need to know what they're doing.  I've asked people what certain moves are, and get no answer.  How can you teach someone a kata, and not know at least 1 application for the moves?

During some classes that I've taught, I've picked a kata, and gave the class a few breakdowns.  I then had them pair up in groups, working together, to try and figure out applications.  Then at the end, all come together, and share what they found.  They seemed to like it, and it made them think.  I mean, whats the use if all they're doing is just running thru meaningless moves?

So yes, kata is important.  No, you're probably not going to get into a fight and start breaking into a kata.  But, there are moves, that can be very useful and effective, if the person knows what they're doing.


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## lhall13 (Aug 20, 2011)

Kata's are not designed to be beautiful, their designed to teach you. And their usefullness? Simply put if you practice the movements within a kata over and over again you retain muscle memory. Therefore your body will just react to whatever it has coming its direction. If you -think- in a fight your gonna end up -hurt- in a fight. If anyone acctually thinks that your gonna fight in only the pattern of kata, I'll say a prayer for ya cause your really gonna need it. I might not be 5+ years into my martial arts and what not. But anyone will tell you- its your training that will save your rear end. So, keep practicing your kata's and it'll save ya when you least expect it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2011)

Nomad said:


> Have a look at Iain Abernethy's stuff; he posts tons of videos on Youtube and his website on the practical applications of karate kata, and I'm a pretty big fan of his.
> 
> There are plenty of reasons why kata have become somewhat disconnected from real combat, from philosophical & political decisions made by Funakoshi and others following WWII to common training methods to distorted views of how fighting works (often based on the training methods above), to a very rapid spread of information of dubious depth, but it's all there in the kata... you may just have to change your perceptions on what and how the kata are teaching you.



You beat me to it! I've trained with Iain and I can tell you honestly that when he does Bunkai his opponent is well and truly beaten, it's very alive, very effective and shows that kata is by no means useless.

Btw Iain is coming across to the States to hold some seminars, if you can make them, it's worth the trouble.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 21, 2011)

If a person can't demonstrate a simple set of moves with posture, balance, relaxation, and speed, they will probably believe Kata to be useless.
Sean


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## Cyriacus (Aug 21, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> If a person can't demonstrate a simple set of moves with posture, balance, relaxation, and speed, they will probably believe Kata to be useless.
> Sean


Yes.
Not just that, but you also have to see the Intent.
This is a bit of an odd way to put it, as its less obvious.
But the "First" Pattern in TKD, Chun Ji, opens with a Low Block > Lunge Punch.
It took me almost a Year to realise how these Patterns and Kata worked. It was saying, that to defend against a Front Kick, Blocking it down, then Lunging forward and Punching the Opponent in the Chest is one Option.
I then applied that Logic to some Kata, viewing it as several Components, rather than One Single Combination. But as Numerous Combinations, used to a similar end.

Kata are Functional, and so are any other Similar Idealogies. You just have to be Open Minded, and Understand that in a Real Engagement, you wont be nearly as Technical as you are when Demonstrating. Your Movements and Stances wont be as Formal. Its WHAT you DO thats supposed to be largely the same.

I remember a Friend of mine who did Shotokan once said, that Black Belt Sparring should look like Freeform Kata.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2011)

Way before we had videos, computers etc there needed to be a way to remind yourself of the great many moves that can be used for self defence, writing them down isn't useful as anyone who has tried to teach themselves something physical from a book will tell you so kata was 'born'. A way of keeping all the self defence moves in one 'bundle' so you could learn them, remember them and use them in a way that is also aesthetically pleasing but also keeps you moving in the correct manner. Too many people have taught kata without the Bunkai losing the purpose and meaning of the kata leading to people saying well you don't fight like that! No, you don't but it's the individual uses of the individual moves within the kata that are important.
When teaching boxing trainers can use a very simple kata to teach the punches, 'jab, cross, uppercut' you don't necessarily use them in that order or all three in a sequence in a boxing fight but you have all three in your armoury through practice, you go on to learn combinations etc but that's your basis a very simple 'kata' to learn, remember and refine your punches.


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## Stealthy (Aug 21, 2011)

Would someone please teach me this kata?

[yt]LEPNmj1SEeA[/yt]


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2011)

I want to learn the Maglite one!


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## chinto (Aug 21, 2011)

LOL this one comes out from time to time.  My answer is always the same. Learn the KATA, look for the bunkai! learn what applications you can use for that kata's movements, movement by movement!  If you can not do this, you have not been properly trained!! then it is provable that you do not know what bunkai is, and how to go about it. If this is the case your instructor is at fault! I would say you should go and ask your sensei why he/she is not teaching you bunkai? 

IF YOU UNDERSTAND AND PRACTICE KATA CONSTANTLY YOU WILL HAVE THE TOOL WORK FOR YOU THAT YOU NEED WITH OUT THOUGHT!   yes boys and girls  "it" happens.  it has happened to me.  it works. kata teaches the brain to work in different ways. teaches your muscles and reflexes to work differently then otherwise they would.  but only if you practice kata consistently and look for bunkai the same way.


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## seasoned (Aug 21, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I want to learn the Maglite one!


One with (4) D batteries, don't leave home without it.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 21, 2011)

Ive gotta ask it. 

Is there a Headbutt Kata?
This is a... Semi Serious Question


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## Stealthy (Aug 22, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ive gotta ask it.
> 
> Is there a Headbutt Kata?
> This is a... Semi Serious Question



Ask and you shall receive.

[yt]C0vf3o0vOi4[/yt]


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## Cyriacus (Aug 22, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> Ask and you shall receive.
> 
> [yt]C0vf3o0vOi4[/yt]


I see - So like, someone Clinches and Pins you against a wall, and you use this Kata to 'Roll' their Hands off?


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ive gotta ask it.
> 
> Is there a Headbutt Kata?
> This is a... Semi Serious Question



I'm sure there's no kata as such but there's plenty of chances in most katas for a headbutt if necessary, all's fair in love, war and when you are defending yourself!


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## WC_lun (Aug 22, 2011)

Kata or form is used as a training tool to teach concepts and train the body physical memory.  If kata does not do this, it isn't being an effective training tool for fighting.  There other reasons to do forms, such as excercise or just plain enjoyment.


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## jks9199 (Aug 22, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ive gotta ask it.
> 
> Is there a Headbutt Kata?
> This is a... Semi Serious Question


It would depend on your system.

There are several headbutts contained in some of the forms within Bando.  There're also drills containing/collecting several headbutting techniques.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 22, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> IMO individuals who find kata useless have been incorrectly trained. The brief time I trained with Sherman Harrill from 94 to his death, maybe 60 hours at clinics, he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata. All used to drop someone in every sort of circumstance. Likewise the 'bunkai' I received from Tristan Sutrisno and his father's shotokan studied in Japan in the 1930's has innumerable 'bunkai' all designed to do the same. Ditto for my studies in Chinese arts and tai chi chaun.
> 
> IMO the central focus of kata is development of technique force and speed, Application studies work on how every of those movements can break an attacker (figuratively).
> 
> If there's no kata there's no karate (as karate is Okinawan). Not to dis other answers they're just not karate no matter what name they use.



I think Victor is right on the money.  At one time I thought Kata was pretty useless as far as real world altercations are concerned.  Then I found Iain Abernethy's website.  Too me it was a breath of fresh air and had me looking at kata in an entirely new light.  It really took my Karate to a new level.  Now, some may debate the 'deeper meaning' vs. 'block/punch/kick' in kata, however whatever your stance may be I think it takes kata to a new level.  It becomes more than just something you need to get the next belt.  

I may not agree with each and every interpretation of Bunkai presented (by Iain or others), but it allows one to think outside the box and see kata as something other than just martial arts 'shadow boxing'.  That's how I look at in anyway.


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## Indycadet (Aug 22, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Way before we had videos, computers etc there needed to be a way to remind yourself of the great many moves that can be used for self defence, writing them down isn't useful as anyone who has tried to teach themselves something physical from a book will tell you so kata was 'born'. A way of keeping all the self defence moves in one 'bundle' so you could learn them, remember them and use them in a way that is also aesthetically pleasing but also keeps you moving in the correct manner. Too many people have taught kata without the Bunkai losing the purpose and meaning of the kata leading to people saying well you don't fight like that! No, you don't but it's the individual uses of the individual moves within the kata that are important.


I couldn't have said it better myself


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think Victor is right on the money. At one time I thought Kata was pretty useless as far as real world altercations are concerned. Then I found Iain Abernethy's website. Too me it was a breath of fresh air and had me looking at kata in an entirely new light. It really took my Karate to a new level. Now, some may debate the 'deeper meaning' vs. 'block/punch/kick' in kata, however whatever your stance may be I think it takes kata to a new level. It becomes more than just something you need to get the next belt.
> 
> I may not agree with each and every interpretation of Bunkai presented (by Iain or others), but it allows one to think outside the box and see kata as something other than just martial arts 'shadow boxing'. That's how I look at in anyway.



The thing I've found about Iain and his work is that both are full of common sense and down to earth practicalities, there's no fuffing around trying to make things fit in, the techniques are solid self defence. He's always open to ideas and will say that techniques don't always work for you because of body size etc so look for something else. I've found this in MMA, that not everything works for everyone something that is often forgotten. When you work with him at one of his seminars he makes Bunkai a very natural thing to do.

If I can be cheeky here and say Iain has a very nice forum on his site, it's not a big one but is interesting if anyone wants to come and join in? I know he'd be pleased to have you!


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## tayl0124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I have not heard of this Iain but might just have to go check out his site.  I do suggest though if you don't get to one of his seminars that you check out a guy named John Kerker,  A student of Sherman Harril that someone mentioned.  His seminar schedule can be found on his site ( http://www.harrillsisshinryu.com/seminars.htm )


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 23, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> The thing I've found about Iain and his work is that both are full of common sense and down to earth practicalities, there's no fuffing around trying to make things fit in, the techniques are solid self defence. He's always open to ideas and will say that techniques don't always work for you because of body size etc so look for something else. I've found this in MMA, that not everything works for everyone something that is often forgotten. When you work with him at one of his seminars he makes Bunkai a very natural thing to do.
> 
> If I can be cheeky here and say Iain has a very nice forum on his site, it's not a big one but is interesting if anyone wants to come and join in? I know he'd be pleased to have you!



+1

I might just have to join Iain's board


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## Black Belt Jedi (Aug 26, 2011)

I enjoy both the old and modern ways of Karate. I enjoy learning the realistic combative elements of Karate. I also enjoy the sporting aspects of Karate. I have quite a few favourite katas in my core Karate system Goju-ryu, I also have quite a few favourite katas outside of my core system, such as Wando. In tournaments these days when the kata competition is mostly flash n' dash. I re-introduce the classical elements of Karate into tournaments and bring the focus of the classical Martial Arts back into the competition circuits. Many people having grasp it yet, but it gradually they are.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 26, 2011)

It's funny, but some of these issues were coming out in a thread over on Kenpotalk. 

My position is this:  a kata/form/set whatever you want to call it, is a training tool and has certain lessons built into it that you are meant to learn, and skills that are developed based on those lessons when you properly practice the form.  But that is the key: "proper" practice.  This means that you must understand what those lessons and skills are, that the form is meant to give you, and you are practicing in a way in which those lessons and skills can be developed.  If you understand it well and practice it properly, forms are a very valuable and effective training tool.

If you do not understand the form, then you cannot practice it properly and benefit from those lessons and skills.  If this is the case, then the practice of the form is simply physical mimickry.  The lessons are lost, the skills are not gained, and the only benefit you get is the possibility of physical exercise.  But no martial potential is built.  No matter how "good" a form is, if it is not understood and practiced properly, the individual will get very little from it, even if Others who DO understand and practice it get tremendous benefit from it.  If you do not understand the form, then spending time to practice it is actually a waste of time.  You'd be better off spending valuable training time working on something else that you DO understand.

I also believe that there are some forms out there that were poorly designed and have little merit anyway.  Some people develop forms who really should not do so. They lack the skill and insite to create a form that has meaning and potential and the right kind of lessons.  

This raises the question of how does one know if the form is truly poorly designed, or if the person doing it simply doesn't understand it?  Sometimes the issue is the one, sometimes the other, and sometimes both are at play at the same time.

I will say this, tho:  you can take a great form, one developed by a true master, and handed down for generations, and if it is done poorly by someone who does not understand it, it can make the form look like it was poorly designed and should be discarded.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 28, 2011)

I think a lot of Korean forms were mimicked from excellent Okinawan kata, but without a complete understanding of what those kata truly held.  Kind of like knowing all the letters but not the proper way to compose a sentence or paragraph.  IMHO.


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## Indycadet (Aug 29, 2011)

I believe this article sums up the practicallity of kata "bunkai" very well

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html


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## Cayuga Karate (Aug 30, 2011)

Since I began training in the mid-70s, I have been intensely interested in the application of Okinawan kata movements in fighting scenarios.

I have had reasonably broad exposure to these kata, and the attempts by many to make sense of it all. My original system was Shito Ryu under Kuniba and Hayashi, and both of those masters were reknowned for application of kata. I have trained with Oyata's students, also devoted to bunkai. Patrick McCarthy has made efforts to share a broader range of application. And in more recent times, we have had a number of karateka doing the same including Iain Abernethy, Tony Annesi and Vince Morris. There are a lot of ongoing efforts of karateka trying to make sense of these strange sequences we know as kata. What we typically find is those with experience in other arts, especially grappling arts, find sequences of movements in kata that map quite well to the locks and takedowns they have learned in Judo, Jiu jitsu, Aikido, Tai Chi's Chi Na, etc. 

I would argue the following regarding bunkai.

Regarding the application of kata to empty hand fighting:

1. The kata often do not provide complete sets of movements for application. Something often has to be added. Let's consider the first the first four directions of Bassai Dai as found in systems practiced by students of Itosu: Funakoshi, Mabuni, Toyoma and Chibana, who named his version "Itosu Passai". There are several series of two armed movements, often called blocks, with no corresponding strikes. One common application is to block twice, then add one or more counters. You can find this "adding of movements" to many systems' approaches to application. You find things not in the kata. There is nothing wrong with this. But it worth noting, it is common to find "things added" to actually make the kata movement work.


2. Many kata, especially in Shorin ryu, have long asymmetric sequences forward and back, often punctuated with symmetric patterns side to side and on angles. What I have found is that many systems have some fairly decent applications for the side to side movements. They often lend themselves to close-in fighting. However, for the long sequences to the front and rear, it is indeed hard to find something useful. What generally occurs is an application for short pieces of the forward sequence. The full sequence is rarely treated as a complete unit of fighting. What we often times find when the full sequence forward is treated fully as a unit, is an attacker who must retreat while punching. There are lots of examples on youtube of this kind of approach. The obvious problem is that under most imaginable realistic defensive scenarios in empty hand fighting, the attacker is arm's distance away. So there is a simple engineering challenge in attempting to respond to an empty hand attack while charging forward with three or four strides. The attackers body is in your way. 

3. There are, in general, several problems with the way applications have been handed down from Okinawa. The first is the unrealistic attacking strike that occurs in much bunkai that is taught. A person charges in using a long, low stance, freezes at the end, and punches in front of his own solar plexus. Some have endeavored to add more realistic attacks, including Oyata's students who often attack as a boxer would with hands high, shuffling in, and attacking the head. It is my experience that there is far too little emphasis on common attacks, especially, the left jab-right-cross attack to the head, a basic unit of attack to anyone trained in a modern striking art. The big challenge here is that so much of karate kata have movements where the hands are down low, such as in a downward block position, with one hand on the hip.

4. The second obvious challenge to the way much application is taught is that it often revolves around a single counter attack, very often to the solar plexus. First, this is simply, the wrong target. And we all know it. In kumite, we often punch reasonably hard to the body, and aim for the solar plexus. It is very difficult to hit. And when you miss, you hit the sternum, pectoral, ribs, and abdominal muscles. Strikes to these areas, especially against larger attackers, are often not very useful. In addition, while your hand is low, at his solar plexus, your chin is open, leaving you vulnerable to his hook. 

5. In addition, the lack of multiple strike counters is a fundamental challenge to the effective application of kata to empty hand fighting. The whole concept of one strike-responses in empty hand fighting is a myth, a fallacy. It has no place in modern training for self defense. One only has to look at kobudo kata where it is not uncommon to find the bo wail 5, 6, 7 times in one direction to recognize the Okinawans may not have fully bought into this whole one-strike concept. Kama kata can have up to a dozen cuts in one direction. Nunchaku kata can have numerous strikes before changing direction. If one needs to train to hit an opponent multiple times with a weapon, how could it possibly make sense to train to hit him just once with your fist. 

6. The hands are simply in the sub-optimal positions many applications of kata. In modern fighting systems, fighters understand that while a punch thrown from the hand chambered at the cheek may not be the strongest punch, it is far safer than one thrown from the hip. That is the unfortunate truth. It is simply way too dangerous to have the hands away from the face. Your head is too vulnerable. It's a trade-off. You give up some power to ensure your head is fully protected. 

This is not to say that there are no circumstance in which a punch launched from a hip-chamber is not optimal. There are many scenarios. For example, any time a successful initial counter momentarily prevents the attacker from counterstriking, you have far greater flexibility in how you continue your attack. 

7. There are a few important components lacking in kata that are necessary tools in effective self defense training. First and foremost, there are no hooks in kata. There are hook-type motions. Naihanchi is but one example that has a number of these. But a hook has a distinct twisting motion that pretty much requires one to lift the back heel off the ground. Kata have heels on the ground. Second, as we all know, there are plenty of front kicks in kata, but no roundhouse kicks. 

-------

I have been following these discussions on kata applicability on these kind of forums going back a decade when they were news-groups. (Can anyone remember alt.rec.martial-arts) 

Let me give you a fictional discussion that includes bits and pieces from these types of posts. 


Poster A: Okinawan kata are encyclopedias of self-defense movements for empty hand fighting.

Poster B: I gave up kata long ago. I didn't see any practical use for it. I find my training better suits me if I do more kumite, more striking work and a few grappling techniques for special circumstances. 

Poster A: You must have come from a dojo where kata application was not taught.

Poster B: No, it was taught but it wasn't realistic. It didn't model fighting as I understand fighting to be. A big guy is pummelling my head. That's what I am training against.

Poster A: Well if you had gone to the right kind of dojo, they would have taught you useful empty hand applications from kata.

Poster B: I practiced for years in the xyz system. It's Okinawan. Shouldn't they have done it correctly.

Poster A: Well, that might be the problem. You see that in my system, our kata is the original kata, and that may be the problem. You see, the kata in your system is different. They must have been changed, and when that happened they lost their original applications. 

Poster B: I don't know about that. I learned these kata were the ones that master ABC taught to master DEF. They must be old and original.

Poster A: Sorry to disappoint you fella, but it is widely know that master ABC changed the kata. My system is still the original way. 

Poster B: I am still unconvinced. Can you share some ideas that you find useful. 

Poster A: Go do a search on youtube. You'll find plenty.

Poster B: I did a search, and didn't find much. Can you give me a few links?

Poster A: Here are two links.

Poster B: I looked at these links and found movements that I find unrealistic. The attacker charges in with a single strike and freezes, while the defender does techniques with his hands down, not protecting his head. I don't believe those kinds of applications are good empty hand fighting. Can you share something that you practice in your dojo?

Poster A: Sorry, can't help you there. You see our system is very private, and we don't share on the Internet. (Or... our moves are secret. We don't share them.)

Poster B: Can anyone on this forum share some useful ideas they practice in their dojos

Other posters: S I L E N C E.
------

You can see this thing time and again on forum such as martialtalk. You have to look no further back than 8 threads ago when superfly posted a request for bunkai.

[URL="http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?98193-Bunkai-Applications"]Bunkai/applications[/URL]

-----

My purpose here was certainly not to argue that there aren't a lot of good applications out there. There are. And we should expect ever more as more people look to draw lessons from their training and come up with their own ideas. However, we should recognize that maybe, just maybe, there are sequences in kata that just might not map all that well to empty hand self defense. And you know what? That's just fine. 

Those who know my background will understand that I have my own rather unique viewpoint on why I believe we shouldn't expect empty hand kata to translate completely into empty hand self defense. I do believ that. However, I also believe that every known movement from every Okinawan kata that likely was taught to Okinawans by Chinese people in Okinawa, make complete and total sense. I can't find a movement that is not useful. And thanks to youtube, there are perhaps 100 versions of these Okinawan empty hand kata that were likely taught by Chinese in Okinawa. I say likely, because it was all taught in secret so we can will never verify for sure. Motobu lists around 12 that were passed down. Funakoshi, a couple of more. Due to the variations found in these kata, that adds up to perhaps 80 unique kata on youtube. (Many, many, share many common movements.) These omit all the variation we have from Aragaki which number perhaps a dozen on Youtube. 

-----

But that is another discussion, another thread, another time. 

For those that doubt the effectiveness of kata, please accept that there's quite a bit of really good application out there being practiced, but not all that much on Youtube. 

And for those that believe that kata are infallible textbooks of useful application, it might be worthwhile to reconsider whether that is truly the case. Don't believe everything your teacher tells you. Use critical judgment. After all, it's your head that needs protecting in a fight. 

I am one of probably many that believe that much of the bunkai practiced today is more bunk than bunkai. Yes, it might work in the artificial world of the dojo, where the attacker is frozen, in a deep stance after a single strike. I have strong advice for those that have been misinformed by their teachers about the utility of these concepts in actual fighting. Please, please don't fall for some of the tall tales taught in many dojos. Any school that practices attacking with a single strike to the solar plexus, and defending with single strikes to the solar plexus are training their students in "dojo" fighting, something very different from actual fighting. Some of the body mechanics are transferrable, but it just makes no sense to limit your "application" training to poor defenses against unlikely attacks. 

Yes karate kata doesn't have hooks. Use them anyway. Yes karate kata often requires you add something. Add a three strike combo before that armbar. Don't just really on single strikes. And while you are at it, put a hook in that three strike combo. A real hook, not in front stance or back stance, but just as it is supposed to be thrown. 

After a kick to the groin, the attackers head just might sink a foot or two before rebounding. Hit him with that hook, right upside his head. Don't worry that it is not in the kata. Any good fighter will tell you it's an essential tool in your toolbox.

Cayuga Karate​


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2011)

When people post up asking for Bunkai for katas they are likely to have little response to be honest as it seems to be an easy way out of learning Bunkai. It's like they want others to do the work for them, having the Bunkai explained to you over the internet is a rather lazy way of learning. In superfly's case he hadn't learnt any Bunkai at all on his way to his black belt testing so posted expecting us to provide Bunkai for all the katas leading up to that test, it's little wonder he got little help in his 'quest'.

the deep stance isn't a fighting stance as such and I've learnt from Iain Abernethy exactly how that is to be used (incidentally the MMA fighters use that deep stance when holding someone up against the cage) Iain's application for that stance is practicable, useful in a 'street' situation and not at all obsolete and no I'm not going to put it up! The clue however is in the word 'Hikite'. No one who does Bunkai usefully will do the single punch from a deep front stance.


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## SuperFLY (Aug 31, 2011)

heh, randomly i decide to check this post and immediately see my name mentioned 

yeh my issue is i havent been introduced to bunkai until VERY late in my training (one thing i'll bring up with my sensei on thursdays training) so im kinda working from a blank slate here and there are so many options, variations, interpretations of applications of kata that asking 'can you show me bunkai for all these katas?' is probably too vague a question to get a proper answer.

tez gave me a nice answer and gave me a couple of things to think about but until i have a proper chance to try out a few things with a partner i'll still be a bit confused about it. i missed training last week as i was away so im really keen to spend my entire training session trying things out and finding out exactly whats involved.

what i have learnt is just because the kata has a certain movement or direction doesnt necessarily mean that is set in stone. movements can be adapted to other less obvious purposes and directions can be adapted to suit where the attacker is coming from. the key to kata is learning variations of movements open to you; it is up to you to be able to apply them effectively in a real situation.



Indycadet said:


> I believe this article sums up the practicallity of kata "bunkai" very well
> 
> http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html



edit:
and i wish a link like this had been posted on my thread. VERY informative


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## Ojisan (Aug 31, 2011)

Fly,

You talked about adapting "direction" based on where the attack is coming from. One fundamental principle in kata is that the direction you change to is the angle of attack you should assume toward your opponent based on his location (right in front of you) before the change of direction. 

OK, to be somewhat clearer. In Pinan Shodan, from the initial stance you turn your body sideways to the left. This might suggest that an attack is happening from your left side, however it is more likely that the kata is addressing how to deal with your opponent in front of you and how turning purpendicular to your opponent may give you advantage depending on how you interpret the attack. 

FWIW

Bill Bent


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## Victor Smith (Aug 31, 2011)

Cayuga,

There is truth in what you say but there are also other answers. Shiroma Shimpan in the 1938 "Karate Do Taikan" clearly shows that additional techniques were added to kata technique, so changes to kata that seem to be missing something were likely done so on purpose, but the adept in that tradition would receive them. Similar to 'Kakushite' described by Demura does the same thing. I suspect that only more advanced practitioners received such training and many who passed their art along may not have gotten that far, but Shiroma shows how to say the least.

Likewise the two side blocks in Passai are themselves one technique not two singular techniques, a parry then lock/takedown. Just a different timing in efficient application than used for kata performance. Just a different answer than the other Passai kata.

As for hook strikes, well Isshinryu starts them as basics and they're included in SunNuSu kata and are effective.

But I personally believe bunkai is to restrictive a methodology to view karate application study.


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## SuperFLY (Sep 1, 2011)

Ojisan said:


> Fly,
> 
> You talked about adapting "direction" based on where the attack is coming from. One fundamental principle in kata is that the direction you change to is the angle of attack you should assume toward your opponent based on his location (right in front of you) before the change of direction.
> 
> ...



i guess what you mean is just because a kata has you turning to the left for example doesnt mean that's where the attack is coming from. that seems most highlighted in the multiple attacker bunkai's where attacks are coming in from 2 or more directions at the same time and the movement (in whatever direction) can defend against both attacks regardless of the direction you're turning.


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## seasoned (Sep 1, 2011)

Ojisan said:


> Fly,
> 
> You talked about adapting "direction" based on where the attack is coming from. One fundamental principle in kata is that the direction you change to is the angle of attack you should assume toward your opponent based on his location (right in front of you) before the change of direction.
> 
> ...


Great point, Bill. Before assuming multiply opponents, working the kata angles as presented within the kata, with the attacker in front of you is paramount to understanding kata...


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## Victor Smith (Sep 1, 2011)

Yet a different perspectives is to learn the application potential of turning with kata turns as a guide. More than just changing angles to execute a technique the turn itself may be a lower body sweep making the rest of the technique superfulous.


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## seasoned (Sep 1, 2011)

Granted there are many throws in Okinawan GoJo that explain some turns as well as the angels for facing and repositioning stance. I feel that kata is all inclusive, and contain a vast understanding of combat. We just need to decipher, as you have done over many years.


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## Steve (Jan 10, 2022)

Bringing this thread back from the dead, in lieu of starting another (or derailing) another one.  

Folks are starting to talk about "true understanding of kata".  What does that mean to you?  When you think of people who truly understand kata, whom do you have in mind?  Can you provide some examples of actual people whom you believe "understand" kata?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> Can you provide some examples of actual people whom you believe "understand" kata?


First you have to assume that the form contain no error in it. If the form creator created it wrong, how can you understand the wrong move in the form?

In the other thread, I stated that I don't understand the "flip arm" movement. I believe my teacher don't understand it. I also believe his teacher don't understand it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> Bringing this thread back from the dead, in lieu of starting another (or derailing) another one.
> 
> Folks are starting to talk about "true understanding of kata".  What does that mean to you?  When you think of people who truly understand kata, whom do you have in mind?  Can you provide some examples of actual people whom you believe "understand" kata?


I have re-read the thread, including my contributions from 11 years ago. Still ok with my own statements, mostly.

I don't think I've used the term 'true' understanding, nor do I think there is such a thing. I might have said many who dismiss kata as useless don't truly understand it, but that's somewhat different.

Any movement, in my opinion, can have more than one meaning, and more than one useful application. Lets say a person punches you, you do a simple block. Nothing wrong with that.

One of my senseis would do exactly that. Oh, and because he's so dang good at understanding timing and nerve points and hard/soft techniques, he could do the same block 20 different ways and the varying types of pain I'd receive would be a smorgasbord.

Another would demonstrate the same basic movement, but it would instead become an arm bar, and with speed, accuracy, and a firm understanding of body mechanics, he'd have me looking at the ceiling faster than I could say ouch. Then he'd show me another ten ways to do it, each resulting in a different fascinating contortion of my old inflexible body.

And they'd always invite all comers to give their best effort. Avoid whatever they chose to do. Punch them fast and hard. Throw the other hand instead. They'd make it work. You'd believe it.

That's one simple move. I could spend the entire class plus after hours practice trying to nail down two or three of those moves. If all I wanted to do was that one move and all the variations they showed me, months of diligent practice.

They are my senseis two primary instructors. They've been training with him since they were 13. They're in their mid 50s now. They are dangerous men.

My sesnsei who taught them is as beyond them as they are beyond me. You ask who, anyone who knows my sensei knows I do not exaggerate. I have never, ever, been able to say "Show me how that works in real life" and not gotten an instant and thorough demonstration. 

I was 46 when I started training. A former Marine, an MP, former LEO, not some easily impressionable kid. I don't belive in magic or woo-woo karate. I've seen one or two things that challenged my belief in science, but beyond that, I'm satisfied that what I've chosen to devote my life to learning is a deep, complete, and powerful self-defense system that also has given me meaning and purpose in a deeper personal way as I've gotten older and lost my physical prowess. 

I'll never truly understand the kata I study. I know three men who are closer than anyone I've seen to date. Sure, I'm biased. But I also know what I am capable of with the meager amount I've learned from them. It's freaking scary. If they can teach me, superior students are in for a treat.


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## Hanzou (Jan 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Bringing this thread back from the dead, in lieu of starting another (or derailing) another one.
> 
> Folks are starting to talk about "true understanding of kata".  What does that mean to you?  When you think of people who truly understand kata, whom do you have in mind?  Can you provide some examples of actual people whom you believe "understand" kata?



Look forward to seeing the answers.


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## dvcochran (Jan 11, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have re-read the thread, including my contributions from 11 years ago. Still ok with my own statements, mostly.
> 
> I don't think I've used the term 'true' understanding, nor do I think there is such a thing. I might have said many who dismiss kata as useless don't truly understand it, but that's somewhat different.
> 
> ...


Love this post Bill. 

I think some of your experience and the expression in you post crosses over into the philosophical side of learning a MA. Which, of course, gets even deeper and broader in regard to 'explaining' something. 

Kata/forms/hyungs/poomsae/etc; at the base level are just a compilation of movements for practice. Just like the progression and maturation a person goes through in any taught process, things should refine and get better; more polished. The body/brain commits them to memory and they become more a part of the person. 
In the ensuing study and time committed to the kata, a person can expand on their understanding of what is happening or what can be done with or within the movements, outside the confines of the base language. 
This is comparable to the system of education where a person can go from learning grade school English to associate to bachelor to Master to PhD levels of learning. And then still continue to expand on the learning (aka, training).  
How else do we think new ideas and new things are developed? 
Expansion is one of the greatest prime movers of the human mind. This is no different for the martial arts in my humble opinion. 

To this point, I believe a person never 'finishes' a form. A pursuing person should continually find new and practical things within a form. This is one of the best proof's that a person is actively training and working, especially in a TMA
Let's face it; most of the originators are either long gone or getting very old. This is something I am facing. My 82- year old GM had knee surgery yesterday. He has been slowing down for some time so naturally I worry about his future and the future of our main school.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 11, 2022)

Part of the issue with this dead horse debate is part of that "understanding" thing is physical, not just mental discipline or learning.  The amount of challenge a form presents makes a huge diff.

Not all forms are the same.  Some kata are slow and performative. Some of the first fist sets in a number of TMA are physically grueling and impossible to do without significant training of the body and breathing, just like Yoga has variation of difficulty, some TMA hit you with suffering right from the start.  You "learn" them but that is only step one.  The thousand reps after are for getting stronger, faster, and most important of all, calmer.  Calm wins fights.

Sadly, a lot of really bright, smart people who know kata well, but have little physical discipline to show for it.


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## Steve (Jan 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Part of the issue with this dead horse debate is part of that "understanding" thing is physical, not just mental discipline or learning.  The amount of challenge a form presents makes a huge diff.



Agreed.  I've heard kata described as the alphabet upon with karate is built.  Using that analogy, the conundrum I run into is what's in between learning the alphabet song, writing sentences, and then writing a well crafted story.  Not everyone can write a good story, and the journey in between learning to write and learning to write well involves a LOT of writing... a LOT of feedback.

So, with kata, it's like this odd mix of two incompatible things.  On one hand, kata are a mysterious, esoteric exercise that some few will fully understand.  On the other hand, they are a practical drill that, according to some, will teach you what you need to know for self defense.  

But in both, there is a bunch of stuff in the middle that is just sort of glossed over.  It's like the joke with kids, where you can count from 1 to 100 in less than 4 seconds.  "One, two, skip a few, 99, 100!"



Oily Dragon said:


> Not all forms are the same.  Some kata are slow and performative. Some of the first fist sets in a number of TMA are physically grueling and impossible to do without significant training of the body and breathing, just like Yoga has variation of difficulty, some TMA hit you with suffering right from the start.  You "learn" them but that is only step one.  The thousand reps after are for getting stronger, faster, and most important of all, calmer.  Calm wins fights.
> 
> Sadly, a lot of really bright, smart people who know kata well, but have little physical discipline to show for it.


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## J. Pickard (Jan 12, 2022)

Maybe they are all just really bad at training kata so *their* kata is useless and so just assume if their kata is useless then all kata are useless. It's a lot easier to project that idea than going back, learning something new, then admitting you were wrong.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 12, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> To this point, I believe a person never 'finishes' a form. A pursuing person should continually find new and practical things within a form. This is one of the best proof's that a person is actively training and working, especially in a TMA
> Let's face it; most of the originators are either long gone or getting very old. This is something I am facing. My 82- year old GM had knee surgery yesterday. He has been slowing down for some time so naturally I worry about his future and the future of our main school.


I am facing a similar situation as well.  My Kwan Jang Nim stopped dying his hair during the pandemic, which really shows his age as a Korean.  Since 1985 I have known him to be a youthful looking and powerful martial artist.  He is now in his 80's and, he is also slowing down.  

I hope we can continue to pass down the knowledge and skill that has been passed down to us.  It's a responsibility I hadn't put much thought into, until recently.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Jan 17, 2022)

Here's how I like to view it:
In order to do a good kata, you have to be physically and mentally conditioned in every aspect of your being. And if you have such conditioning, you can probably fair decently well in a self defense situation. In other words, if some mentally unstable troublemaker attacks a conditioned athlete, the athlete will most likely win.
Some people ask me "But why not just practice by sparring? Isn't that more useful?" And to that I say yes, sparring is more useful, but also more dangerous. *Kata has little to no injury risk.*


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## angelariz (Jan 17, 2022)

I have a different view of forms than I had as a younger guy. After a big accident all I could do was forms to rehab from my whiplash and back injuries.
Also, as I understand it, forms are the encyclopedia of alot of traditional styles.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> So, with kata, it's like this odd mix of two incompatible things.  On one hand, kata are a mysterious, esoteric exercise that some few will fully understand.  On the other hand, they are a practical drill that, according to some, will teach you what you need to know for self defense.


The only mystery is flesh and blood.  The only way to create practical is 

*



*


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## drop bear (Jan 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The only mystery is flesh and blood.  The only way to create practical is
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I still believe kata with acro has more real world benifits than kata without.


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## seasoned (Jan 18, 2022)

Old kata/new kata. Old was born in a time and place of unrest and secrecy. At that time Kata was a means of chronicling ones martial arts techniques so as to preserve them. They were looked at as a means of "life preservation...Some martial arts styles today wish to honor that effort keeping it intact...No more no less. 

New is born out of a spirit of self defense and competition, so change is excepted.....No more no less.

As it goes, "to each their own".


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Jan 18, 2022)

scottie said:


> I am a member of a mostly Isshinryu Facebook Chat group. A guy that I respect as a Martial Artist asked a question. "what role if any does Kata play in your Martial Arts Training." Of coarse that started a huge debate about the Uselessness of kata in the real world. Every thing you don't walk with your hands down to you don't walk with your hands in a boxing position. To it hurts my MMA and point fighting. "No Kata no Karate" (which I like) to on and on. I know this is a dead horse, but most of you here know more about Karate than I may ever know. So I don't care about all kata are useless I want to hear all the Why's  and How it helps.   scottie


I have taught Kenpo for fifty years. We had two katas per belt for Tracy Kenpo and for American Kenpo (I studied both schools). I learned a lot of forms and when I started teaching, I eliminated all of them. I have not suffered one bit by doing so. Many times over the years I had to defend myself and I did so rather well, thank you.
Forms are not necessary. I think back hundreds of years ago in China, teachers formed katas as a way of remembering all the techs. Today we don't need that. In Kenpo,l each technique is like a mini form.
I never teach katas and never will and it does not hurt the quality and effectiveness of my art.
Sifu
Puyallulp, WA


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## Buka (Jan 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> When you think of people who truly understand kata, whom do you have in mind?


I have me in mind.


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## Steve (Jan 18, 2022)

Buka said:


> I have me in mind.


@Buka , you are the first person I’ve ever encountered who admits it.


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## Buka (Jan 18, 2022)

Steve said:


> @Buka , you are the first person I’ve ever encountered who admits it.


I should have posted my complete thought. Which was.....

I have me in mind....except when I'm not home, then I'm out of my mind. (Bazinga)

Back decades ago, we were at George Pesare's Karate Tournament, which was always a crazy, blood bath kind of thing.

During the Kata competition, a guy we had never seen before, Sheldon Wilkins, out of New York, was competing. He had on a heavyweight red gi, with the head of a bull on the back. We had never seen a red gi at that point in our careers, never mind one with a bull.

The Kata judges were led by George Pesare. I think Wilkins trained some sort of Goju. He did an unbelievable, fast, hard Kata.
At the end, George Pesare asks him to explain his Kata - which we had also never seen done before, and we had been competing for five years at this point. (George was doing it to bust his chops, maybe embarrass him)

Wilkins, bows to the judges, and then does the Kata in slow motion, with perfect form, even the high kicks. His explanation seemed to be out of a movie, articulate, perfectly clear and the entire gym had stopped what they were doing to watch and listen. It was like he was teaching the judges a Kata class. It was one of the coolest things I have seen to this day. Sure shut them up.

I went up to him later, introduced myself, and asked him "How the F did you do that?" We became fast friends.

A couple years later we fought in a tournament. I got lucky, nailed him with a jump 360 spinning hook kick. We go back to the line, the ref says go - and he hits me with the exact same kick, only way nicer. Again, I whispered in his ear "How the F did you do that?"

We both laughed so hard the refs yelled at us.

That man understood Kata. Fighting, too. Taught me a lot over the years.


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## Mider (Jan 18, 2022)

scottie said:


> I am a member of a mostly Isshinryu Facebook Chat group. A guy that I respect as a Martial Artist asked a question. "what role if any does Kata play in your Martial Arts Training." Of coarse that started a huge debate about the Uselessness of kata in the real world. Every thing you don't walk with your hands down to you don't walk with your hands in a boxing position. To it hurts my MMA and point fighting. "No Kata no Karate" (which I like) to on and on. I know this is a dead horse, but most of you here know more about Karate than I may ever know. So I don't care about all kata are useless I want to hear all the Why's  and How it helps.   scottie


I think it just trains the body how to Move, muscle memory etc


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## angelariz (Jan 18, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I have taught Kenpo for fifty years. We had two katas per belt for Tracy Kenpo and for American Kenpo (I studied both schools). I learned a lot of forms and when I started teaching, I eliminated all of them. I have not suffered one bit by doing so. Many times over the years I had to defend myself and I did so rather well, thank you.
> Forms are not necessary. I think back hundreds of years ago in China, teachers formed katas as a way of remembering all the techs. Today we don't need that. In Kenpo,l each technique is like a mini form.
> I never teach katas and never will and it does not hurt the quality and effectiveness of my art.
> Sifu
> Puyallulp, WA


When I saw the long form i quit training kenpo..lol there was no way I was going to remember all of that!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2022)

scottie said:


> So I don't care about all kata are useless I want to hear all the Why's  and How it helps.


You can record valuable information in your form so you can pass it down from generation to generation.

For example, you have 120 partner drills that you like to teach such as:

- jab, cross, ...
- front kick, side kick, ...
- wrist lock, elbow lock, ...
- hip throw, foot sweep, ...

When your students train those drills without partner, those partner drills become solo drills. Instead of to force your students to remember drill 1, drill, 2, ..., drill 120, you combine those drill into 3 forms (your toolbox) with 40 drills in each form such as:

- beginner level form,
- immediate level form,
- advance level form,

If you also add in

- set up,
- principle,
- strategy,
- defense,
- counter,
- ...

your form will evolve from toolbox into textbook.


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## drop bear (Jan 18, 2022)

Mider said:


> I think it just trains the body how to Move, muscle memory etc



Yeah this.

Which also means you don't really have to look for realistic technique. You can drop in to a deep stance over pronounce strikes because you are training your body to be more flexible stronger and coordinated. 

Bunkai is where the madness occurs. That is where people do mental backflips trying to reason out why doing a squat is a fighting move rather than a squat.


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## dvcochran (Jan 19, 2022)

In simplest terms, Kata is the boxer's version of shadow boxing in the MA's world. With the inclusion of most all techniques. Yes, even some of the lesser used ones.

A person can go as hard as possible, over and over practicing Kata, getting in better shape and condition without injury while improving recognition/recall/reaction. When balanced with resistance and contact, this is the perfect paring. IMHO

It is also a great tool for people who do not want to compete but still train a MA.


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## Michael Hubbard (Jan 19, 2022)

I find kata as a way in martial arts of bringing organization to punches, kicks, strikes and blocks to different pressure points to a person's body during an attack.  I believe doing katas in combination with sparring helps us learn how to correctly apply those techniques in a real setting.  Being in good shape, having great flexibility and remaining calm in potentially violent situations is when using techniques in kata is at it's best.  I remember being in a kumite competition in Las Vegas in 2012 and going against my opponent with half of my dojo watching me and someone got me on their Iphone and told me that half of the moves I was doing came from a kata.  The other half came from basic fighting techniques that we learn.

Even Tyson at his best did a very elementary form of kata in boxing where his mentor Cus D Mato taught him different combinations (katas) that involved certain movements along with punch combinations that followed.  He used those combinations during fights regularly.  That is what led him to be so successful between 1985-1989.  Once he fired Kevin Rooney and got away from those combinations (katas) then the rest is history.


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## Steve (Jan 20, 2022)

Michael Hubbard said:


> Even Tyson at his best did a very elementary form of kata in boxing where his mentor Cus D Mato taught him different combinations (katas) that involved certain movements along with punch combinations that followed.  He used those combinations during fights regularly.  That is what led him to be so successful between 1985-1989.  Once he fired Kevin Rooney and got away from those combinations (katas) then the rest is history.


Are we calling all drills kata now?  

My point isn't to nit pick.  It's that whenever we have discussions about kata, we swing wildly from basically suggesting that anything resembling a form is kata to the other side where kata is essentially moving meditation from which the mysteries of the universe may be gleaned.  Hard to keep up.


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## Steve (Jan 20, 2022)

Michael Hubbard said:


> I find kata as a way in martial arts of bringing organization to punches, kicks, strikes and blocks to different pressure points to a person's body during an attack.  I believe doing katas in combination with sparring helps us learn how to correctly apply those techniques in a real setting.  Being in good shape, having great flexibility and remaining calm in potentially violent situations is when using techniques in kata is at it's best.  I remember being in a kumite competition in Las Vegas in 2012 and going against my opponent with half of my dojo watching me and someone got me on their Iphone and told me that half of the moves I was doing came from a kata.  The other half came from basic fighting techniques that we learn.
> 
> Even Tyson at his best did a very elementary form of kata in boxing where his mentor Cus D Mato taught him different combinations (katas) that involved certain movements along with punch combinations that followed.  He used those combinations during fights regularly.  That is what led him to be so successful between 1985-1989.  Once he fired Kevin Rooney and got away from those combinations (katas) then the rest is history.





Steve said:


> Are we calling all drills kata now?
> 
> My point isn't to nit pick.  It's that whenever we have discussions about kata, we swing wildly from basically suggesting that anything resembling a form is kata to the other side where kata is essentially moving meditation from which the mysteries of the universe may be gleaned.  Hard to keep up.


Reading this again, I think I was too direct.  My point isn't to challenge what you said.  It's just I'm wondering (and suspecting) that Mike Tyson didn't get to the deep stuff that folks talk about when they discuss kata.  I don't know how much embedded bunkai there is in the drills he did, but I'm guessing not much.  I would guess (and have read) that boxing really offered Tyson a spiritual haven from what was otherwise a very hard life.  But I would guess that the drills were just part of his training, and that the spiritual and emotional growth that boxing might have offered him came from the effort and attention (and diversion from crime) of the activity as a whole, and not strictly from drills.  

I hope that makes more sense.


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## Michael Hubbard (Jan 20, 2022)

I totally understand your point and agree with you about 60%.  A boxing drill cannot be looked at as a kata however when you closely look at the video on the way Tyson trained in his earlier days, he moved his head a certain way, he positioned himself a certain way around his opponent, threw certain types of punches at his opponents body and head in a certain combination and was taught to do these series of movements by Cus D Mato, then Kevin Rooney.  He did these movements (katas) over and over and over and over.  Sometimes in the background, you can hear D Mato say it looks good but it isn't perfect.  I know kata very very very well and know what a series of movements, fast and slow at times along with attacks and blocks in combination with stances and when to apply power in certain movements.

I am not saying Tyson's movements are a full kata such as any of the Heian Katas in shotokan or anything of that nature but it's the closest form of a kata in boxing that I have seen.  I am not swinging wildly as you say but making a connection with how a simple type of kata was effective in boxing where once a opponent made an attack then the attack was defended a certain way and was effective about 95% of the time.  I trying to be more open minded when looking at the effectiveness of kata in the real world.  It doesn't always have to be karate, kenpo, judo or tae kwon do where kata has been popularized these days.


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## Michael Hubbard (Jan 20, 2022)

Steve I like your points and they make a lot of sense.  I  respect and agree with what you are saying.    The structure that Cus provided Tyson allowed him to channel his criminal behavior into something more constructive which was boxing and it did that for him.  Once that structure was removed, then Tyson quickly got away from his safe haven and his life quickly fell apart.  Even at 54 years old Tyson remembered what Cus taught him 35 years ago and came back to it.  He returned back to his roots to provide him with balance and inner peace that his life was missing

Getting back to kata through, even today I still see Tyson doing his organized movements, small katas or drills with his new trainer because it provides him with some sort of organization of punches and movements.   He does this over and over and over until it's perfect, the way one does katas. While he is practicing these movements I would imagine that they bring him inner peace and release from the outside world.   We as martial artists practice katas over and over and over sometimes fast and slow until those movements and combinations are perfect.  Then if we ever use them in a real world situation we do these katas unconsciously because of the constant practice over time.


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## seasoned (Jan 20, 2022)

Michael Hubbard said:


> Steve I like your points and they make a lot of sense.  I  respect and agree with what you are saying.    The structure that Cus provided Tyson allowed him to channel his criminal behavior into something more constructive which was boxing and it did that for him.  Once that structure was removed, then Tyson quickly got away from his safe haven and his life quickly fell apart.  Even at 54 years old Tyson remembered what Cus taught him 35 years ago and came back to it.  He returned back to his roots to provide him with balance and inner peace that his life was missing
> 
> Getting back to kata through, even today I still see Tyson doing his organized movements, small katas or drills with his new trainer because it provides him with some sort of organization of punches and movements.   He does this over and over and over until it's perfect, the way one does katas. While he is practicing these movements I would imagine that they bring him inner peace and release from the outside world.   We as martial artists practice katas over and over and over sometimes fast and slow until those movements and combinations are perfect.  Then if we ever use them in a real world situation we do these katas unconsciously because of the constant practice over time.


Just to take it a bit past what boxing "kata" covers and suggest that karate kata technique's move past the striking component and through repartition ready's the karate student for basic positioning for locks and takedowns. Kata covers the basic components but 2 person drills put it altogether...My 2 cents, I think this is basically what you're saying...


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## Michael Hubbard (Jan 20, 2022)

Yes it is.  I enjoyed the healthy debate though.  To me kata has two parts.  The first part is to prepare one for combat situations should they ever arise in the street or in kumite.  The second part is to be artistic.  There is nothing like seeing a well practiced kata in a competition with hard and soft movements, blocks and punches using hips, nice stances all put together with perfect timing.  The second part of kata has nothing to do with boxing at all.  It's the first part where we are having healthy debate and discussion.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 20, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> I have taught Kenpo for fifty years. We had two katas per belt for Tracy Kenpo and for American Kenpo (I studied both schools). I learned a lot of forms and when I started teaching, I eliminated all of them. I have not suffered one bit by doing so. Many times over the years I had to defend myself and I did so rather well, thank you.
> Forms are not necessary. I think back hundreds of years ago in China, teachers formed katas as a way of remembering all the techs. Today we don't need that. In Kenpo,l each technique is like a mini form.
> I never teach katas and never will and it does not hurt the quality and effectiveness of my art.
> Sifu
> Puyallulp, WA


Ed Parker's Kenpo is unique, I think for several reasons.  

The forms were designed in post-secret modern times, so the bunkai is plain to see.  They more accurately represent the way the style is practiced in every day actual workouts than the older Chinese or Okinawan forms do, at least as those styles are commonly taught today.  

Over the past century, kata and basic technique diverged into two different things, with the true meaning of the kata being lost to a considerable degree.  The class drills looked less and less like the forms.  Originally, those forms were the basis for the style and there was no disconnect between them.  Going back to the roots of these styles, there was less disconnect then.  Having returned to the roots of Okinawan karate, I see much similarity to kenpo.

So, I view kenpo as less unique in its techniques than I used to.  It remains unique in the way Ed Parker constructed and organized it.

The forms, especially the 3, is composed of technique series that are learned for each belt that are, as you said, like mini forms, and even more so when you add all the extensions.  So the 3 form is just a device to help remember some of them (There are so many!) 1 and 2 cover the basic blocks, kicks, strikes, etc. Form 4 starts flowing, putting it all together for fighting.  

But aside from incorporating the individual technique series, kata still helps with stance transitions, and keeping the body balanced and controlled in the midst of many techniques in a long form, so I think it's still good practice, though I see your point.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 21, 2022)

Michael Hubbard said:


> To me kata has two parts. The first part is to prepare one for combat situations should they ever arise in the street or in kumite. The second part is to be artistic.


Yes, this is a result karate's evolution from a combat art into the second part, an artistic competitive sport.  But in having two parts with different goals, it's important to remain aware of the differences.  We must remember, kata was originally devised as practice for combat, not as an artistic sport.

Much of the time, competitive forms favor the artistic elements over the combat effective elements - What looks nice to the judges and audience may not work nice in a fight.  And techniques that work well in a fight aren't often pretty or flashy enough for forms competition.  While one skill can contribute to the other, they are really two different things.

Sparring competition is a third kind of animal.  Scoring points does not always equate with artistic form, or with combat effectiveness.  Many of the most effective combat techniques are not allowed (for good reason) in competition.  Again, we must recognize the differences between the many faces of karate and not confuse them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 21, 2022)

Michael Hubbard said:


> The second part is to be artistic.


I prefer to call the 2nd part as "health".

One day when you are 80 years old, if you can still touch your hand on your kicking foot, your flexibility is still good.

https://i.postimg.cc/fLDyLH06/my-kick-punch.gif


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## BrendanF (Jan 21, 2022)

Steve said:


> Are we calling all drills kata now?
> 
> My point isn't to nit pick. It's that whenever we have discussions about kata, we swing wildly from basically suggesting that anything resembling a form is kata to the other side where kata is essentially moving meditation from which the mysteries of the universe may be gleaned. Hard to keep up.



I think it pays to know what the term actually means, outside of one niche art.

Traditional Kata in Japanese MA


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 21, 2022)

Anybody here seen this before?  This is just the trailer, I've seen the actual performances.

It's ironic that the same people who make fun of _kata_, can't do this.


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## Steve (Jan 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Anybody here seen this before?  This is just the trailer, I've seen the actual performances.
> 
> It's ironic that the same people who make fun of _kata_, can't do this.


How is that ironic?  

Actually, nevermind that... what exactly where they doing?  Whoever edited that trailer needs to be fired.


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 21, 2022)

Steve said:


> How is that ironic?
> 
> Actually, nevermind that... what exactly where they doing?  Whoever edited that trailer needs to be fired.



Why?


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## punisher73 (Feb 4, 2022)

Steve said:


> How is that ironic?
> 
> Actually, nevermind that... what exactly where they doing?  Whoever edited that trailer needs to be fired.


I'm not a big fan of all the choppy cut scenes either.  I'd rather see a longer one to see what they are doing.


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## Steve (Feb 4, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> I'm not a big fan of all the choppy cut scenes either.  I'd rather see a longer one to see what they are doing.


It's the video editing version of bad PowerPoint.


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## dvcochran (Feb 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Anybody here seen this before?  This is just the trailer, I've seen the actual performances.
> 
> It's ironic that the same people who make fun of _kata_, can't do this.


I don't know anything about it, but I see it got terrible reviews across the board.


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 4, 2022)

dvcochran said:


> I don't know anything about it, but I see it got terrible reviews across the board.


That's a New York art thing.  Don't pay it any attention, the trailer is good enough on its own.

Have you ever seen _Staying Alive_?


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## punisher73 (Feb 5, 2022)

Back to the original topic.

"Kata" is one of those things that it's not just ONE thing, so _how _it is being defined by the people in the discussion is crucial.

In its most basic form (no pun intended), "kata" just means form/pattern. 

There are many two person katas in the martial arts, so it is not just "solo practice".  For example, Judo's self-defense (Goshen) techniques that Kano thought too dangerous to try in randori were practiced as two person drills.  Kendo has a series of katas that involve and attack and response between two people. 

There are katas that are very short in length.  Take, for example, iaido.  They are a solo practice that involve drawing the sword, making a cut (or multiple cuts and/or a defensive move and then a cut or cuts), then cleaning the blood of the blade and then putting the sword back in the scabbard.  All of them are based on these 4 basic ideas.

So, under this more "broad" definition of "kata" we can say that any prearranged pattern used for training is a kata.  For example, if a boxing trainer is having his student go through the same prearranged combination over and over in the air and even on a pad it could be considered kata practice.  Even if we add a partner and have them throw a specific punch and respond with a specific defensive maneuver followed by a specific offensive response, their method of drilling (to use the western term) is the same as kata practice in the asian cultures that used kata.

Now some define "kata" more narrowly and ONLY define it as the predefined patterns that are longer in length used by Asian martial arts for solo practice.

Next, we run into the other schools of thought in regard to kata and its usefulness.  First, the people that understand that kata has to be pulled apart, practiced and drilled in increasing resistance to make it functional for fighting and also understand that it is a way to teach you how to move your body in a certain way based on how the system is set up.  Then, there is the school of thought that markets itself to people who really don't want the bumps and bruises associated with fighting and imply that through solo practice alone of kata they will become an unbeatable fighter.  

SO....is kata useful?  Depends, it is useful if you find it useful and congruent with your goals in martial arts.  It is not useful if you don't see the value in it and it is not congruent with your goals in martial arts.

Do you need kata to learn how to fight?  No, you don't.  But, that also doesn't make them not useful.  I can pull out drills, techniques, tactics and strategies that are easy to use and distill them into a "fighting system" that would be very easy to learn without the need to learn the entire kata/system.  But, not everyone wants that, so this goes back to the previous statement about what are your goals in martial arts and is the path your are taking congruent with those goals?


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## Martial D (Feb 5, 2022)

Without reading every post in the thread I will just share a metaphor...so I do apologize if this is redundant.

Saying Kata or forms are useless in a fight is a bit like saying the alphabet is useless in a conversation.


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## Steve (Feb 5, 2022)

Martial D said:


> Without reading every post in the thread I will just share a metaphor...so I do apologize if this is redundant.
> 
> Saying Kata or forms are useless in a fight is a bit like saying the alphabet is useless in a conversation.


I guess that works because there are plenty of kids who know the alphabet song but can’t read or write.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> Do you need kata to learn how to fight?  No, you don't.  But, that also doesn't make them not useful.  I can pull out drills, techniques, tactics and strategies that are easy to use and distill them into a "fighting system" that would be very easy to learn without the need to learn the entire kata/system.  *But, not everyone wants that*, so this goes back to the previous statement about what are your goals in martial arts and is the path your are taking congruent with those goals?


What make you think that not everyone wants that?

Do you think people want to learn a form that

- move 1 can be used to set up move 2, move 2 can be used to set up move 3, ... ? or
- just teach you to step to east and punch, step to south and punch, ... (move 1 and move 2 have no logic connection)?


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 5, 2022)

Taming the Tiger in the 工 Pattern Fist (Gung Gi Fuk Fu Kuen).

Anybody else here practice this other than me?  This is my morning exercise after qigong.  The elixir of youth.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Taming the Tiger in the 工 Pattern Fist (Gung Gi Fuk Fu Kuen).
> 
> Anybody else here practice this other than me?  This is my morning exercise after qigong.  The elixir of youth.


I'll do something similar. I'll

1. face east, do combo 1.
2. face south, do combo 2.
3. face west, do combo 3.
4. face north, do combo 4.
5. Repeat 1-4 20 times.

Next day I'll do 4 different combos.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> Back to the original topic.
> 
> "Kata" is one of those things that it's not just ONE thing, so _how _it is being defined by the people in the discussion is crucial.
> 
> ...


Yes. 

So often, this debate gets confused, because some talk about kata (referring to strict forms, usually longer forms) being unnecessary, and use this to say it isn’t beneficial. Those are two different measures. A speed bag drill is not necessary for learning to box, but many have found it beneficial. A teep isn’t necessary to fight in MMA, but many have found it beneficial. And so on. 

Arguing about specific approaches, and arguing about efficiency of learning, are different points that are often confounded when kata is brought up.


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## punisher73 (Feb 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What make you think that not everyone wants that?
> 
> Do you think people want to learn a form that
> 
> ...


I meant that some people enjoy the process and the journey and want something more from a martial art than JUST fighting.  They enjoy learning kata and practicing it and find other benefits to it.  For some, it can be a form of moving meditation.  My comment was that some people prefer to "just fight" and do very well with just techniques, drilling/sparring.  Other people enjoy more.  It was NOT a comment on what the kata was or how it was designed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What make you think that not everyone wants that?
> 
> Do you think people want to learn a form that
> 
> ...


Both have their place. It really depends what they're used for. And what people want will vary widely - some folks enjoy the movement, regardless of its application (or lack thereof). Students really enjoy my sword kata, even though 1) they will never fight with a sword, and 2) I make it clear that I am not actually good with a sword, so the sword in this kata is just a prop for the movement.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 6, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> some folks enjoy the movement, regardless of its application (or lack thereof).


It depends on how you may teach your MA system.

For example, when I taught a Taiji class for old people (in their 60), I first taught them the partner drills. I then taught them the solo drills without partner. Toward the end, I then links those solo drills into a Taiji form.

IMO, this teaching method can meet to all student's need.


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## seasoned (Feb 8, 2022)

Steve said:


> I guess that works because there are plenty of kids who know the alphabet song but can’t read or write.


Your comment definitely sums it up very nicely with few words. Kata is a tool like the alphabet, it is fun to learn but only scratches the surface....


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## Oily Dragon (Feb 8, 2022)

seasoned said:


> Your comment definitely sums it up very nicely with few words. Kata is a tool like the alphabet, it is fun to learn but only scratches the surface....


The funny thing about kata is that the "surface" is a pretty unique thing.  It's personal.  I dance throughout my house every day but I'm not sure if I can muster this kind of performance art.  So it's never really fair to dismiss any kind of routine, some of these people train like crazy, and deserve the gold they're given.

What an audience, by the way.  They don't clap until they see the Southern Mantis.

If you listen closely, somebody's phone goes off right about the time he does what the Chinese call "Butterfly Palm Technique".  That's some great timing.

The last half is the better part.  More elemental.









						Japan's Ryo earns intense kata gold over Spain's Quintero
					

Kiyuna Ryo of Japan had all eyes on him as he gave a strong performance to win the men's karate kata gold medal. Spain's Damian Quintero won the silver.




					www.nbcolympics.com


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## seasoned (Feb 8, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The funny thing about kata is that the "surface" is a pretty unique thing.  It's personal.  I dance throughout my house every day but I'm not sure if I can muster this kind of performance art.  So it's never really fair to dismiss any kind of routine, some of these people train like crazy, and deserve the gold they're given.


Totally agree. The kata surface is a pretty unique thing. It's used to win trophies also to gauge proficiency and more importantly to tie together the many techniques we call martial arts. Deep down kata can be a lot of fun,  where in some dojo it is required to put your own kata together and be tested on it for artistic as well as functional value.
I have always found that if a karate-ka had a great understanding of the teachings of kata, "timing, transitioning and flow" of movement, that it showed up in their sparing ability as well. 
My comment about "only scratches the surface' was in no way minimizing effort, but... virtually pointing toward the system within the system of kata which in some of the very traditional dojo would start to realize a more hands on factor of kata such as grappling which is woven into each kata in a very unique way.  


Oily Dragon said:


> What an audience, by the way.  They don't clap until they see the Southern Mantis.
> 
> If you listen closely, somebody's phone goes off right about the time he does what the Chinese call "Butterfly Palm Technique".  That's some great timing.
> 
> ...


I feel we are on the same page.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 1, 2022)

Victor Smith said:


> IMO individuals who find kata useless have been incorrectly trained. The brief time I trained with Sherman Harrill from 94 to his death, maybe 60 hours at clinics, he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata. All used to drop someone in every sort of circumstance. Likewise the 'bunkai' I received from Tristan Sutrisno and his father's shotokan studied in Japan in the 1930's has innumerable 'bunkai' all designed to do the same. Ditto for my studies in Chinese arts and tai chi chaun.
> 
> IMO the central focus of kata is development of technique force and speed, Application studies work on how every of those movements can break an attacker (figuratively).
> 
> If there's no kata there's no karate (as karate is Okinawan). Not to dis other answers they're just not karate no matter what name they use.


You do not need katas for your art to be effective  for self defense, but if you like doing katas then keep it up! 
Sifu
Puyallup, WA


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## Gyuki (Mar 7, 2022)

AIKIKENJITSU said:


> You do not need katas for your art to be effective  for self defense, but if you like doing katas then keep it up!
> Sifu
> Puyallup, WA


Correct yet incorrect. You do need forms as well as basics. The way to teach said basics and memorise them without an external supoport such as a book or video having kata is mandatory. 

Having practiced various arts I can confirm that to learn all techniques by heart and have access to them from easy memory a kata is helpful. When learning drills and techniques seperately there is no issue to execute them or even have them flow (usually more freely) together. 

To truly be considered a martial artist one needs to know their art inside out and be able to pass it entirely without any external support. And the best and simplest way to achieve that id via kata. 

On the other hand, as a practitionner, one can focus only on one of the various aspect of martial arts and become extremely proficient in that; as in this case (and the only real thing that matters as per my opinion of martial arts) self defense in the real world. You sure don't need to learn kata to become good in that aspect. However I would like to posit that when at a higher level ones solo practice of a curriculum of self defense, if done without checking a cheat sheet or repeating movements more then once, would look very much like a kata. 

So in the end, kata or something very similar will come out of any martial practice... 


(I am not even talking about kata competition or that aspect as this is literally child's play and choreography for the sake of choreography.)


Which leads me to also question (sorry to offend) the reasoning of styles that have more then 10 15 kata. As one is to know the bunkai (at least one version of it) for every movement in every kata and be proficient with such movement, either I am an idiot but I cannot fathom to have that much knowledge and proficiency for 60 kata. At that point they are performed for other reasons then actual efficiency and integration into actual combat. Good for historical posterity and ensuring the passing down of knowledge(even tough it may be empty knowledge without said bunkai and true efficiency) in a cultural sense but not necessairly in a martial sense... 

Thank you


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 7, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Correct yet incorrect. You do need forms as well as basics. The way to teach said basics and memorise them without an external supoport such as a book or video having kata is mandatory.


No it's not. Forms are an excellent tool for most. But they are absolutely not mandatory.


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## ThatOneCanadian (Mar 7, 2022)

_I have probably stated this before but..._

The way I see it, doing kata correctly requires you to be quite strong, fast, and flexible. And if you are strong, fast, and flexible, you'd probably fair decently well in an altercation with an untrained dude about your same size. Same logic applies to any athlete, really (I personally would not want to square up with a soccer player, for example).


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## Gyuki (Mar 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No it's not. Forms are an excellent tool for most. But they are absolutely not mandatory.


If I may clarify, a form would be something as simple as a guard position. A guard position and a jab plus a cross. Knowing proper body mechanics to execute said technique.
 I didn't mean forms in a "traditional" way. As yes, those can be more then skipped and still create a very effective "figther". In quotes as for self defence it is less of a fight and more of a being attacked and fighting out to escape safely.... 
Knowing how to move forwards and backwards side to side without in a way to have efficient power and balance is basic form of all martial arts, combat sport and self defense system. Even self taught combattant have some sort of a guard and way to move of their own. Again, it seems to be something that comes naturally. 

I have a bizzare and unusual view on terms and such things. Probably why forms and kata don't mean to me what they may mean to lot of people. And I understand the usual definition and connotation those 2 things have.
 I hope I make myself clear when I say that either for their own sake or done to "compete" in either kata or being excellent at doing demonstration is not my perspective on martial arts. It may be fun and exciting to most. Some get to become great stuntpeople and actors/actresses. I am not on the perspective of theater. It is not the way I choose to approach it.
Therefore, I do not use those terms in that sense, I am sorry for not being more clear on that before.


On the other hand, I have seen attempts at passing knowledge without forms  (in the sense I mean aka serious practice of movements whichever the art one chooses) and the results are usually less than stellar. 

But I may still misunderstand what you meant, if so please I would like further understanding of these concept or how to go about instructing someone who starts from scratch without any forms whatsoever. I am interested in learning more.

Thank you for sharing


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## Gyuki (Mar 9, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No it's not. Forms are an excellent tool for most. But they are absolutely not mandatory.


On the other hand, I have seen this video:





and it helped me change my perspective and understand a different way of seeing/doing things. I would still argue in a way that trough tactics and strategies forms are inherently developped but as they are not trained specifically it wouldn't be a proper way of saying things.

I may also be wrong and have failed to understand what was meant regardless.

On a different/same note, I understand what he says and can agree with it up to a point. Reason I am saying up to a point is that a lot of Krav Maga seems to be using that model to teach and by the end of a curriculum most people end up fighting with relatively weak MMA skills and add a few groin shots/illegal moves to UFC and that is the result. Of course this is a stereotype but from what I have seen, someone with no knowledge of combat that just learns strategies and tactics will be not afraid to use those and be agressive when needs be but the ensuring it is as efficient as possible portion may not be there. Now, does it matter that the elbow is not at x angle when throwing the hook? Not at all, it is however helpful to know how to put power and torque behind that hook to ensure the person will react accordingly and the main subject can escape or call for help whichever....


I found it interesting that my opinion was disagreed with and wanted to know more. I now have a better/different understanding and properly see the light hahaha.

Thanks for sparking that curiosity in me, I never imagined other options were there. Goes to prove I am but a young puppy in this world.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> You do need forms as well as basics.


I believe the better training result is the key issue.

If your form has 40 moves. Instead of doing your form once, you can use that time to train your personal combo (such as side kick, hook punch, spin back fist, hook punch) 4 moves combo 10 times.

Which training will give you better result?

- Doing 40 moves form once? or
- Doing 4 moves combo 10 times?


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## Gyuki (Mar 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe the better training result is the key issue.
> 
> If your form has 40 moves. Instead of doing your form once, you can use that time to train your personal combo (such as side kick, hook punch, spin back fist, hook punch) 4 moves combo 10 times.
> 
> ...


Isn't the 4 move combo a form of it own? One that you prefer to use and have made yours.

I don't disagree with you at all, maybe my terminilogy is wrong as what I mean by form is a set pre arrange number of movements. That can range from 2 movements (a jab+cross) all the way to Kata (which may have 40 different movements but I see as different learning tool, mainly teaching/memory support for entire art). 
I hope my way of seeing it and explaining what I mean makes sense. And sorry if I misunderstood the intial point of the question asked by poster. I can't disagree with your statement either. One has to find their own form and go with that


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 9, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Isn't the 4 move combo a form of it own?


You may call that a combo drill, or you may call that a form. The difference is the

- combo drill is created by yourself.
- form is created by the form creator.


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## Tez3 (Mar 11, 2022)

ThatOneCanadian said:


> _I have probably stated this before but..._
> 
> The way I see it, doing kata correctly requires you to be quite strong, fast, and flexible. And if you are strong, fast, and flexible, you'd probably fair decently well in an altercation with an untrained dude about your same size. Same logic applies to any athlete, really (I personally would not want to square up with a soccer player, for example).


Have you watched many football games? Footballers fall over all the time without even being touched! It's the origin of the no touch KO.


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## Anarax (Mar 11, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> On the other hand, I have seen this video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This guy is all over the place a few points I disagree with and why.

1. Shows footage of pro fighters moving forward as their opponents are driven backwards in a mostly defensive and open position. This is dishonest for a few reasons. 1A. You can just as easily show footage of when an opponent moving backwards counters/KOs their opponent as they were moving forward in a similar fashion. 1B. Your opponent is "hurt" and the aggressing opponent is capitalizing on their vulnerable state. This scenario is very different from advancing towards a grounded/unhurt opponent to engage. 

2. Bias, what we refer to it in kickboxing, is your alignment in comparison to your opponent's alignment is important to advantageous  positioning. However, advantageous positioning is also gained by footwork, bias and proper body alignment. 

3. Using the example of being completely behind your opponent in a striking situation is an amazing position to be in, too bad he couldn't show how to get there. I'd love to know 

4. The "most striking classes" do their drills in place is painting with a broad brush. I've trained with multiple coaches/teachers and that's not the case from my experience. Maybe we just have a difference of experience with coaches.

5. Moving around with the pads is one drill to learn positioning. The holder will only let you throw the counter if you get to an advantageous position. From my experience this is common in boxing and kickboxing gyms.

6. Proper alignment with punching is important. I somewhat agree that nitpicking over a few degrees of difference is unnecessary. However, watch some of the Bare Knuckle boxing fight or even a few UFC fights and see what happens when their knuckles or shins are not in proper alignment at the moment of impact.

7. Putting your hands down doesn't make you better. There are both pro/cons to hands up/down. There isn't one ultimate fighting stance/posture. Plenty of footage of both examples, but he didn't include any.


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## Gyuki (Mar 12, 2022)

Anarax said:


> This guy is all over the place a few points I disagree with and why.
> 
> 1. Shows footage of pro fighters moving forward as their opponents are driven backwards in a mostly defensive and open position. This is dishonest for a few reasons. 1A. You can just as easily show footage of when an opponent moving backwards counters/KOs their opponent as they were moving forward in a similar fashion. 1B. Your opponent is "hurt" and the aggressing opponent is capitalizing on their vulnerable state. This scenario is very different from advancing towards a grounded/unhurt opponent to engage.
> 
> ...


Which is why I was initially saying that "forms" (aka basics) were mandatory and one would end up having some regardless as any training would result in the person taking one form or another.

As per this gentleman's video, I think we have similar conclusion on what he says in general.

I do like that you bring the point of injuries. I have seen many who train in gloves only and when punching something without one they injure themselves. If one is to assume that self defense (which is ultimately the goal of most martial arts) is in question, gloves will not be a part of the equation. You are more then correct to say that one need to learn to have proper alignement to have efficient hits.

And yes from what I gather it is very difficult to gain positional advantage or strategies if an individual does not know how or even where to move... 

But then again, my definition of forms and kata seems to be very different then most. As I simply view either as a series of movements. Some may call them drills (forms mainly) or basics, I see that in the end each martial artist creates their own forms according to their style (physiology, psychology), skills and preferences.

As per Kata I mentioned it earlier (in previous post) and do not wish to be over redundant.


This youtube creator likes to spark controversy with most of his videos. He sure doesn't know all but his input is interesting and usually leads to conversation...


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## Anarax (Mar 13, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> This youtube creator likes to spark controversy with most of his videos. He sure doesn't know all but his input is interesting and usually leads to conversation...


I agree with you on his tactic to get views, I also like how it sparks conversation. However, I've seen this tactic with other content creators and they make stronger points and are somewhat more consistent. He seems to make broad statements with absolute certainty.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 13, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> Correct yet incorrect. You do need forms as well as basics. The way to teach said basics and memorise them without an external supoport such as a book or video having kata is mandatory.
> 
> Having practiced various arts I can confirm that to learn all techniques by heart and have access to them from easy memory a kata is helpful. When learning drills and techniques seperately there is no issue to execute them or even have them flow (usually more freely) together.
> 
> ...


Kata aren't mandatory, at all. Plenty of systems manage to deliver results without them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Kata aren't mandatory, at all. Plenty of systems manage to deliver results without them.


Agree! if you know a set of combo drill, you can create as many forms as you want to.

- jab, jab, cross.
- jab, hook, hook.
- hook, hook, uppercut.
- hook, back fist, overhand.
- ...

To link your drills into a form can only help you to record the information (as to write a book). It won't help you anything else.

Which form do you want to spend more training time into it?

- The form that you learned from your teacher, or
- the form that you created yourself?


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## Gyuki (Mar 13, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! if you know a set of combo drill, you can create as many forms as you want to.
> 
> - jab, jab, cross.
> - jab, hook, hook.
> ...


Again, can't agree more with that. 
The goal if one was to train his own forms in a Kata format might be to pass them on to others in the future. However since we do have access to technology it is possible for one to simply record such material or as you have mentioned write it down in a book. 

Some may argue that being able to pass on an art without technological support is a requirement to be a complete martial artist, however when it comes to direct efficiency in combat, there are tools(which you mentioned a few)that are way more efficient than training kata for hours.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Kata aren't mandatory, at all. Plenty of systems manage to deliver results without them.


Technically untrue.

The Chinese word "xing" in Mandarin or "jing" in Cantonese or Japanese "kun", "kata", simply means "pattern" or "shape".

If you can name a single system that doesn't teach some sort of pattern or model, well, then it's not a system.  They all do.   MMA is a system of kata, as much as Shaolinquan.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Technically untrue.
> 
> The Chinese word "xing" in Mandarin or "jing" in Cantonese or Japanese "kun", "kata", simply means "pattern" or "shape".
> 
> If you can name a single system that doesn't teach some sort of pattern or model, well, then it's not a system.  They all do.   MMA is a system of kata, as much as Shaolinquan.



Getting a little pedantic here.   So, for the sake of clear communication, you are saying that, in the context of this discussion, this pattern or model:





and this pattern/model:





Is the same thing as this?






I can see a lot of functional differences.  Can't you?


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Getting a little pedantic here.   So, for the sake of clear communication, you are saying that, in the context of this discussion, this pattern or model:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it pedantic?  Or am I clarifying the proper use of language?  Boxing is all about learning patterns, so is karate, and every other skill in life.  Tai Chi is all about seeing the patterns of the natural world, and where you fit in it.

In other words, when you make it "kata" vs. boxing, that's a fool's errand.  Everything in boxing is kata.  Otherwise it'd be a royal mess.  Apes killing apes!


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Is it pedantic?  Or am I clarifying the proper use of language?


I think it's pedantic. 



Oily Dragon said:


> Boxing is all about learning patterns, so is karate, and every other skill in life.  Tai Chi is all about seeing the patterns of the natural world, and where you fit in it.
> 
> In other words, when you make it "kata" vs. boxing, that's a fool's errand.  Everything in boxing is kata.  Otherwise it'd be a royal mess.  Apes killing apes!



I appreciate this.  It helps me understand, and I think you make a good point.  

And, your point was much more easily understood when you just use the term "pattern" and not try to redefine the term "kata."  In my opinion.

Anyway, I'll let this go now, lest I become a pedant, as well.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think it's pedantic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome.

Just consider this, why did you post those specific three videos?  You picked a karate form competition, a guy prancing in the forest like a primeval manimal, and a boxing tutorial.  There's definitely a difference between all three, but your intention was very, very specific.

Did any of them support the "uselessness of kata in the real world", given the literal definition?  Or are we talking about the uselessness of Japanese kata?  In both cases I disagree.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Is the same thing as this?
> 
> I can see a lot of functional differences.  Can't you?


The different is the boxing combo only records one situation. When you do jab-hook-uppercut, your application is clear and simple. Some MA forms try to be abstract and record many situations (which I don't think it's a good idea).

Unless we can all agree that "concrete training" is better than "abstract training", the argument about MA form's usefulness will be continued.

A: In boxing, a jab is just a jab.
B: In TMA, a jab can be a punch, a lock, a throw, a ...

By use the TMA logic, a traffic cop is training MA also.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Just consider this, why did you post those specific three videos?  You picked a karate form competition, a guy prancing in the forest like a primeval manimal, and a boxing tutorial.  There's definitely a difference between all three, but your intention was very, very specific.



They were simply the first video that I could find of a "kata" a "kung fu form" and a "boxing drill".   Nothing more to it than that.  Full disclosure, I only watched the first 30 seconds or so of each video to ensure they were at least superficially representative of the three different things.  

Relevant to this discussion, when I used the three terms above, I got EXACTLY what I expected.  Kata gives you japanese kata.  Kung fu form gives you some version of wushu or similar.  And boxing drill gives you a mostly "alive" pattern.  



Oily Dragon said:


> Did any of them support the "uselessness of kata in the real world", given the literal definition?  Or are we talking about the uselessness of Japanese kata?  In both cases I disagree.


I don't know, but if we can agree that there is a difference, it will help that discussion move forward.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Technically untrue.
> 
> The Chinese word "xing" in Mandarin or "jing" in Cantonese or Japanese "kun", "kata", simply means "pattern" or "shape".
> 
> If you can name a single system that doesn't teach some sort of pattern or model, well, then it's not a system.  They all do.   MMA is a system of kata, as much as Shaolinquan.


I've never heard anyone refer to their "forms", meaning anything other than a predetermined pattern that is repeated as a specific practice. If we go for direct translation of words and look for a way that direct translation could apply, we're not really talking about what people mean here.

Yes, there are patterns everywhere. Boxing does combinations that come up over and over. But what folks are usually talking about with "forms" isn't a couple of punches repeated in a drill. There's an area of overlap between "drill" and "form", and usually the distinction is a matter of required precision in the repetition. In a drill, if your technique is good enough for your level, variations in stance and such are usually not even acknowledged. In forms - again, as I've most often seen them - folks are being taught to replicate the movements pretty exactly, with specific attention to stances and angles, even where variation wouldn't negatively affect the technique at hand.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Is it pedantic?  Or am I clarifying the proper use of language?  Boxing is all about learning patterns, so is karate, and every other skill in life.  Tai Chi is all about seeing the patterns of the natural world, and where you fit in it.
> 
> In other words, when you make it "kata" vs. boxing, that's a fool's errand.  Everything in boxing is kata.  Otherwise it'd be a royal mess.  Apes killing apes!


While I've made the argument, myself, that there's an overlap between forms and drills, I think it's important to discuss the topic folks start with, rather than swerving with a different definition. Otherwise, someone says, "Those very exact and repetitive long forms are useless", and someone else replies, "No, those drills using a common 3-punch combination aren't useless, at all." And there's no real discussion going on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Just consider this, why did you post those specific three videos?  You picked a karate form competition, a guy prancing in the forest like a primeval manimal, and a boxing tutorial.  There's definitely a difference between all three, but your intention was very, very specific.
> 
> Did any of them support the "uselessness of kata in the real world", given the literal definition?  Or are we talking about the uselessness of Japanese kata?  In both cases I disagree.


Since "kata" is a Japanese term, I've always taken discussion of "kata" to be about the Japanese ones. That's the only way I've ever seen the term used.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> While I've made the argument, myself, that there's an overlap between forms and drills, I think it's important to discuss the topic folks start with, rather than swerving with a different definition. Otherwise, someone says, "Those very exact and repetitive long forms are useless", and someone else replies, "No, those drills using a common 3-punch combination aren't useless, at all." And there's no real discussion going on.


I think we're moving into the "aliveness" story arc now.  About that time, I guess.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think we're moving into the "aliveness" story arc now.  About that time, I guess.


Seems about right.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2022)

I think I'll make up a Kata today in honor of Pi day. It will be three warriors pointing at four warriors.

There might even be name calling.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> They were simply the first video that I could find of a "kata" a "kung fu form" and a "boxing drill".   Nothing more to it than that.  Full disclosure, I only watched the first 30 seconds or so of each video to ensure they were at least superficially representative of the three different things.
> 
> Relevant to this discussion, when I used the three terms above, I got EXACTLY what I expected.  Kata gives you japanese kata.  Kung fu form gives you some version of wushu or similar.  And boxing drill gives you a mostly "alive" pattern.
> 
> ...


I think the boxing tutorial is not incredibly functional based on the chance you'll ever need those skills.

You're far more likely to engage in a dance competition or just run like a wild fool through the forest on a given day, than to need to strike another person in the face.

That's why when we talk "functional" vs "useless", I'm often of the mind to toss both and just dance.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> While I've made the argument, myself, that there's an overlap between forms and drills, I think it's important to discuss the topic folks start with, rather than swerving with a different definition. Otherwise, someone says, "Those very exact and repetitive long forms are useless", and someone else replies, "No, those drills using a common 3-punch combination aren't useless, at all." And there's no real discussion going on.


Any time a human says something is "useless" beware.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think we're moving into the "aliveness" story arc now.  About that time, I guess.


Only if some still believe (2022????) Kata are static, and dead.  Which misses the point.  If you're going to rely on a competition video, then you're going to get that.

Why did you not post a Kyokushin video?  They do forms, too, but they integrate them into live, resistance based training.

If we go beyond the Japanese term to Chinese Kuen sets, the whole point is to become alive, which is why they start solo and fixed, then solo and unfixed, then paired and fixed, then paired and unfixed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2022)

Many people may say that the Taiji outside crescent kick can be a foot sweep. But in order to make a foot sweep work, many key requirements are missing in Taiji outside crescent kick.

This is the problem for "abstract" form training. You may think you are training a certain skill, but the truth is you are not.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think the boxing tutorial is not incredibly functional based on the chance you'll ever need those skills.
> 
> You're far more likely to engage in a dance competition or just run like a wild fool through the forest on a given day, than to need to strike another person in the face.
> 
> That's why when we talk "functional" vs "useless", I'm often of the mind to toss both and just dance.


Oh, you surprised me.  Okay.  So, not aliveness.  Instead, we're going to talk about how we don't fight anyhow, so it doesn't really matter if one develops any actual fighting expertise while learning a martial art.  I basically have two thoughts on this, as long as you're going there. 

First, I think all is well, as long as folks are honest with themselves, and are transparent with their students, about what they are and are not teaching them.  The problem is you have some folks who want to have it both ways.  They will "like" your comment above because they have never been in a fight, and then also offer their opinions about what is effective or functional in a fight. 

Second, personally, I don't think there's any need to be "the best" or an expert at things you enjoy.  But there is something to the idea of pursuing development with a little integrity.  Don't get me wrong, if you don't care to learn to fight, no problem.  But I have no respect for folks who do anything half-assed.  I would never let my kids get away with saying, "It's fine... no one will ever see it anyway."   Such a cop out.  So, when you say, "It's fine if it doesn't work, because I'll never need those skills anyway," it undermines the entire activity.  I see no integrity in that, at all.  Why do it, if you aren't going to do it?


----------



## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Only if some still believe (2022????) Kata are static, and dead.  Which misses the point.  If you're going to rely on a competition video, then you're going to get that.
> 
> Why did you not post a Kyokushin video?  They do forms, too, but they integrate them into live, resistance based training.
> 
> If we go beyond the Japanese term to Chinese Kuen sets, the whole point is to become alive, which is why they start solo and fixed, then solo and unfixed, then paired and fixed, then paired and unfixed.


I didn't post a Kyokushin video because it wasn't the first video that came up when I googled "kata" videos...  didn't you read my post?  I explained it to you.  I'm starting to believe you are arguing with a fictional version of me that has said things I haven't, and not said things I have.  

Do you think I have a problem with kata?


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 14, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> On the other hand, I have seen this video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One might suggest that he doesn't really understand what a fundamental is, and how it applies to strategy and positioning...

Once you learn the rules, and understand why they are there, you can break them but still incorporate the principle beneath the rules.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Oh, you surprised me.  Okay.  So, not aliveness.  Instead, we're going to talk about how we don't fight anyhow, so it doesn't really matter if one develops any actual fighting expertise while learning a martial art.  I basically have two thoughts on this, as long as you're going there.
> 
> First, I think all is well, as long as folks are honest with themselves, and are transparent with their students, about what they are and are not teaching them.  The problem is you have some folks who want to have it both ways.  They will "like" your comment above because they have never been in a fight, and then also offer their opinions about what is effective or functional in a fight.
> 
> Second, personally, I don't think there's any need to be "the best" or an expert at things you enjoy.  But there is something to the idea of pursuing development with a little integrity.  Don't get me wrong, if you don't care to learn to fight, no problem.  But I have no respect for folks who do anything half-assed.  I would never let my kids get away with saying, "It's fine... no one will ever see it anyway."   Such a cop out.  So, when you say, "It's fine if it doesn't work, because I'll never need those skills anyway," it undermines the entire activity.  I see no integrity in that, at all.  Why do it, if you aren't going to do it?


I understand.

"aliveness" in the martial arts sense has a very specific meaning, according to certain "modern" schools, and it's not a new concept, obviously sparring has been around for thousands and thousands of years.  Roman gladiators sparred, Chinese soldiers sparred, Indian warriors sparred.  Whether or not its practiced in a particular school today depends on specifics.

But I think the answer to your question is simple, if you want to keep it specific to Japanese kata.  Kata is not for leaning to fight.  Never was.  It's for learning movements that were developed from older movement sets, a long time ago.  Any one of us here who knows a little boxing and a little kata could probably created a 100 move Boxing Kata form containing nothing but functional movements.  Without sparring with them, they'd be nothing more than practice, though.

When boxers learn their first movements, they learn dead forms and patterns (kata, in the literal sense), before they ever hit anyone for real.  They learn form/pattern and the functional use/skill comes later on.  Nobody goes into a boxing gym, gets thrown into the ring, and is told "just go".  It just so happens you'll probably be able to do that in a short time, because boxing forms are pretty simple and limited to a small range of attacks and defenses.

As long as something in karate, kung fu, or boxing instills some sort of benefit, it's not "useless".  The Shaolin fom you posted teaches balance, grace, and flexibility, and contains specific techniques that can be drilled or sparred with alive.  So that video is not representative.  The karate kata teaches energetic movement, intention, focus.  Also not representative of how kata movements are utilized in full contact competition.

If kata were truly useless, they'd have died out a long time ago.  They'd have been left behind for impracticality.  Yet millions of people find them helpful, compared to the few critics, and quite a few of their proponents are, and always have been, successful, full contact fighters who train "alive".


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I didn't post a Kyokushin video because it wasn't the first video that came up when I googled "kata" videos...  didn't you read my post?  I explained it to you.  I'm starting to believe you are arguing with a fictional version of me that has said things I haven't, and not said things I have.
> 
> Do you think I have a problem with kata?


I'm sorry, I might be having flashbacks to 20 years ago when everyone who watched UFC was suddenly convinced my training was crap, and was happy to tell me, even though their best skill was choosing clothes to wear to school, and I was learning grapple fu (starting with wrestling forms).

Pedantic?  My argument is that it's all semantics.  Kata is a veeeeerrrrry broad term that goes back to before the history of Japan, so it should be used with caution alongside absolutes like "useless".


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## Flying Crane (Mar 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many people may say that the Taiji outside crescent kick can be a foot sweep. But in order to make a foot sweep work, many key requirements are missing in Taiji outside crescent kick.
> 
> This is the problem for "abstract" form training. You may think you are training a certain skill, but the truth is you are not.
> 
> What will you do if you want to learn hip throw, but your forms don't have it?


There are all kinds of things that my forms do not have.  That does not mean my forms don’t have huge value.  We’ve been over this many times: forms are one tool, of many, in one’s toolbox.  Anyone who does nothing but forms is not training optimally.  Forms are not meant to be the end-all.  I don’t really understand why people want to pretend this hasn’t been addressed already, many times. 

Anyone who does only heavybag work would also be deficient.  This is no mystery.  Training needs several components.   None of this is meant to stand alone.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Forms are not meant to be the end-all.


That's exactly what I was trying to say. One should go beyond his forms.

A: In this form, you will learn everything that you need.
B: Where is hip throw, flying knee, flying side kick, spin kook kick, outer leg twisting, ...


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's exactly what I was trying to say. One should go beyond his forms.
> 
> A: In this form, you will learn everything that you need.
> B: Where is hip throw, flying knee, flying side kick, spin kook kick, outer leg twisting, ...


Krav Maga is a good example of a style that tries to do this (cover every base) but flies or dies based on how the person actually trains.  Dead or alive, you're gonna have a bad day if you don't train right.

That's how you end up with an art with such diversity in terms of fighting skill.  Some are silly, others are literal killers.

And if you watch any of the old clips when it was founded, maintaining the forms of older arts was pretty important.


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## Buka (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Dead or alive, you're gonna have a bad day if you don't train right.


Gospel.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I understand.
> 
> "aliveness" in the martial arts sense has a very specific meaning, according to certain "modern" schools, and it's not a new concept, obviously sparring has been around for thousands and thousands of years.  Roman gladiators sparred, Chinese soldiers sparred, Indian warriors sparred.  Whether or not its practiced in a particular school today depends on specifics.
> 
> ...


I think your logic is a little squirrelly.  Many things that are useless in one context are useful in another.  A French bulldog, by any objective standard, has no business being alive. It is useless as a dog, but survives still because it is helpless and lovable.  

That said, I don’t believe kata are useless.  I don’t think it’s all that efficient, but inefficient isn’t necessarily a bad thing .  

Last thing is, I don’t care if we keep it to just Japanese Kara or not.  I just don’t think every pattern is a kata.  If we can’t agree that boxers don’t do kata, the discussion gets silly very quickly.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'm sorry, I might be having flashbacks to 20 years ago when everyone who watched UFC was suddenly convinced my training was crap, and was happy to tell me, even though their best skill was choosing clothes to wear to school, and I was learning grapple fu (starting with wrestling forms).
> 
> Pedantic?  My argument is that it's all semantics.  Kata is a veeeeerrrrry broad term that goes back to before the history of Japan, so it should be used with caution alongside absolutes like "useless".


So at least we now agree that kata is Japanese.  That’s a start.  😂


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think your logic is a little squirrelly.  Many things that are useless in one context are useful in another.  A French bulldog, by any objective standard, has no business being alive. It is useless as a dog, but survives still because it is helpless and lovable.
> 
> That said, I don’t believe kata are useless.  I don’t think it’s all that efficient, but inefficient isn’t necessarily a bad thing .
> 
> Last thing is, I don’t care if we keep it to just Japanese Kara or not.  I just don’t think every pattern is a kata.  If we can’t agree that boxers don’t do kata, the discussion gets silly very quickly.


Every pattern is _kata_.  It's just basic Japanese language.  The southern Chinese name for it is "jing", "hing".  "hying".  I could bore you with paragraphs about the 5, 10, 36 Hying Fist.

Or I can agree with you that not everything that boxers do is _kata_, but it's definitely how they _learn _boxing.  Through patterns. 
形​


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> So at least we now agree that kata is Japanese.  That’s a start.  😂


"kata" the word, sure.  

Kata the lineage, not remotely.


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> There are all kinds of things that my forms do not have.  That does not mean my forms don’t have huge value.  We’ve been over this many times: forms are one tool, of many, in one’s toolbox.  Anyone who does nothing but forms is not training optimally.  Forms are not meant to be the end-all.  I don’t really understand why people want to pretend this hasn’t been addressed already, many times.
> 
> Anyone who does only heavybag work would also be deficient.  This is no mystery.  Training needs several components.   None of this is meant to stand alone.





Oily Dragon said:


> Every pattern is _kata_.  It's just basic Japanese language.  The southern Chinese name for it is "jing", "hing".  "hying".
> 
> I can agree with you that not everything that boxers do is _kata_, but it's definitely how they _learn _boxing.  Through patterns.
> 形​


Do I need to post those videos again?


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Do I need to post those videos again?


I'd prefer you post new videos, but that's just me.  I just see patterns all the way down.

Let me ask you a new question: how many people who want to learn boxing actually learn it?  10%?  Kata has a much higher acceptance rate, doesn't it?


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## Steve (Mar 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'd prefer you post new videos, but that's just me.  I just see patterns all the way down.



I could google some new videos, but if you don’t see a difference between the ones I already posted, I don’t think it will make a difference.   


Oily Dragon said:


> Let me ask you a new question: how many people who want to learn boxing actually learn it?  10%?  Kata has a much higher acceptance rate, doesn't it?


I must not get your point because I think 100% of folks who have boxed have learned to box.  And 100% of people who have done kata have learned kata.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I could google some new videos, but if you don’t see a difference between the ones I already posted, I don’t think it will make a difference.
> 
> I must not get your point because I think 100% of folks who have boxed have learned to box.  And 100% of people who have done kata have learned kata.



That's 100%.  I agree.

It's all kata.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2022)

Gyuki said:


> On a different/same note, I understand what he says and can agree with it up to a point. Reason I am saying up to a point is that a lot of Krav Maga seems to be using that model to teach and by the end of a curriculum most people end up fighting with relatively weak MMA skills and add a few groin shots/illegal moves to UFC and that is the result. Of course this is a stereotype but



Those angles, the foot work the tactics are still technical details. Timing as well. It is just a different technical detail. And you do learn them if you have a good instructor. 

Being able to perform good ring craft with good timing makes your whole Fighting better. 

So fighting with relatively weak MMA skills (or better yet good ones) is almost the aim. Because the Timing, the angles and the little details that allow you to succeed in that environment are these more meta skills.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think your logic is a little squirrelly.  Many things that are useless in one context are useful in another.  A French bulldog, by any objective standard, has no business being alive. It is useless as a dog, but survives still because it is helpless and lovable.
> 
> That said, I don’t believe kata are useless.  I don’t think it’s all that efficient, but inefficient isn’t necessarily a bad thing .
> 
> Last thing is, I don’t care if we keep it to just Japanese Kara or not.  I just don’t think every pattern is a kata.  If we can’t agree that boxers don’t do kata, the discussion gets silly very quickly.



If kata was just movement training then it would be pretty reasonable. And the less realistic the better. 

Bunkai is where stuff gets weird.


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