# Who was Arnisador?



## Kane (Feb 21, 2005)

Going around the forum I noticed a used named Arnisador. He has over 13,000 post and his rep is beyond anyone it seems (very high). Everywhere I read it says "account closed" for this user. A little while back, one of his posts said he was the forum Admin, but I thought Kaith Krustas was that role. Was Arnisador the old Admin and Kath a new Admin? What happened to Arnisador? Why did he close his account though so honorable poster? I doubt he was banned, since it said in one of his post he is the Admin (or old Admin).

Just curious.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 21, 2005)

Arnisador, also known as Jeff Leader stepped down as administrator due to work and family needs a while back. He was one of our first moderators, and helped build alot of the foundation of MT. I see him at least once a year at the WMAA camp in Buffalo.

Kaith Rustaz (Bob Hubbard), ie me, is the owner and founder of MT. Due to the size of MT we have had several admins and assistant admins.  Right now I'm handling the technical and Mike Seigel (Seig) is handling operations.

:asian:


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## Kane (Feb 21, 2005)

Yea, but why did he have to close his account? I mean whenever I am absent from MT for a long time I never close my account. Was it necessary for him to close it?

Also, I have never seen any other admins around here besides Arnisador and Kath. So who are the other admins and asst. admins?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 21, 2005)

The account was closed on his request.  There are a number of folks who were sad to see him go.

Admins currently are Seig and Kaith.
There are no ast. admins currently.
Past admins: Arnisador and Cthuhlu
Past Ast. Admins: Seig and Rich Parsons


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## bignick (Feb 22, 2005)

Who was Arnisador?

 Legend tells us of a man, who...

 nah...I never really knew him, if I remember correctly there was a lot of hubbub going on at the time I signed up about him leaving...


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 22, 2005)

I still say we make him a tenth.....


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## Cthulhu (Feb 22, 2005)

Arni is The Man.

 Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 22, 2005)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> I still say we make him a tenth.....


 Well...I can't do that...but I'll hit him with a stick a few times in June for everyone.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 22, 2005)

Kaith Krustaz?  

  Sounds like a Winner in the name the New Simpsons Char... Krustaz the Clown...


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 22, 2005)

Sounds Klingon


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## Dronak (Feb 25, 2005)

Kind of an aside, but I was looking through some thread a little while ago, and a number of posts were from accounts labelled "guest".  But I remember the names from a while back.  I wonder what happened in those cases.  It seems odd for a previously registered account to have gone to guest status.  Unless those posts were made before they registered.  Maybe that's it.  Oh well, it just seemed unusual to me, that's all.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 25, 2005)

In the past, we would delete dead accounts.  We stopped doing that as it removed certain information that we use in problem solving.  Now, we move the accounts to a "closed" group rather than delete them.  If your account is deleted, all posts revert to 'guest' access.  The software allows for non-registered posting, but we've disabled that as it usually is abused by trolls and spammers.


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## bignick (Mar 17, 2005)

Alright, before there was a thread welcoming arnisador back...but it turns out his account was still closed, but I swear....he posted today...


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## arnisador (Mar 17, 2005)

There is no *arnisador*. It's just a tale told to frighten children.


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## bignick (Mar 17, 2005)

Oh...ok, nevermind then....

  :uhohh:


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## Ceicei (Mar 17, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> There is no *arnisador*. It's just a tale told to frighten children.


 Hey!!!  Good to see that tale still going around!!!!  Welcome back! artyon:

 - Ceicei


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## Seig (Mar 18, 2005)

bignick said:
			
		

> Oh...ok, nevermind then....
> 
> :uhohh:


I told you, Nick, he lives in a shoebox under my bed next to the Toe Monster.


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## bignick (Mar 18, 2005)

Well, thank you for letting him out to play today...


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2005)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Welcome back!



Thanks! I've been hanging out on Kaith's sci-fi board:
bbs.rustaz.com


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## thepanjr (Mar 18, 2005)

weird i thought arnisador quit his addminstrator job. That was just freaky


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 18, 2005)

He did.  Whats freaky about it?


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2005)

I needed a break. I enjoyed doing it but we learned quickly that there's a burnout factor. *Seig* seems to be keeping things moving very well, and advertising is picking up. I have a lot of respect for what he and Kaith have been able to do with the site. I was very focused on putting out fires rather than on broader thinking (though we tried!). So, although I left because of time pressures and burnout, it turns out that it was good to get new ideas in!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 18, 2005)

Welcome back, snookums.


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## shesulsa (Mar 18, 2005)

Welcome back Arnisador! :asian:  artyon:


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## Flatlander (Mar 18, 2005)

We stand on the shoulders of giants. :asian:


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 18, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Welcome back, snookums.


(Snookums?)

You can feel the love!


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## bignick (Mar 18, 2005)

Maybe Kaith's post count was just getting a little to close for comfort


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 18, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> (Snookums?)
> 
> You can feel the love!


So much love going around, had to participate.

D.


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 18, 2005)

Let glorious marches grace the day,
And heralds sing his praise,
Young maidens in diaphenous dress
With flowers pave his ways.

Let warriors and thier barded steeds,
Proudly lead him on,
Let banners grace his retinue,
His trumpets greet the dawn.

Silken robes doth grace his mien
And jewels crust his crown.
All hail, all hail, the King's return,
Arni's back in town!




Regards,


Steve


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 18, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Let glorious marches grace the day,
> And heralds sing his praise,
> Young maidens in diaphenous dress
> With flowers pave his ways.
> ...


*WOW*.

It doesn't get much better than that!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 18, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I needed a break. I enjoyed doing it but we learned quickly that there's a burnout factor. *Seig* seems to be keeping things moving very well, and advertising is picking up. I have a lot of respect for what he and Kaith have been able to do with the site. I was very focused on putting out fires rather than on broader thinking (though we tried!). So, although I left because of time pressures and burnout, it turns out that it was good to get new ideas in!


 Hey man, good to see you back!!

 7sm


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## KenpoTess (Mar 18, 2005)

Hiya Jeff 

 :wavey:


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## James Kovacich (Mar 18, 2005)

Good to hear from ya!  :asian:


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## Cruentus (Mar 18, 2005)

Arnisadors back! Everyone...lets have a pink thong party!  artyon:


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## hardheadjarhead (Mar 18, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> *WOW*.
> 
> It doesn't get much better than that!




My English degree bears fruit.

Dad would be so proud!

<sniff!>


I just had a visual of Tulisan and Jeff in pink thongs, and feelings are welling up within me that I've never had before.



Regards,


Steve


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Young maidens in diaphenous dress



Speaking of which, didn't you promise to show me one of these at the steak place in Bloomington? We have to try again!


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> I just had a visual of Tulisan and Jeff in pink thongs



We gotta stop taking pictures at the WMAA camp.

Hi to everyone! Thanks for the warm welcome back.


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2005)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Hiya Jeff



Now, Tess I've been seeing on the other board! This'll distract me from my posting there.


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## KenpoTess (Mar 18, 2005)

*innocent looks*


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## Cryozombie (Mar 18, 2005)

I was gonna ask how you managed to pull yourself away from the Dark Kingdom, Arnisador.


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## KenpoTess (Mar 18, 2005)

I think it's obvious if you look


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## Cruentus (Mar 18, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> My English degree bears fruit.
> 
> Dad would be so proud!



Well check did out... My Playa Hata Degree is about to bear some fruit!

_"Ooh that dress so scandalous
And you know another n**** couldn't handle it
See you shaking that thing like who's da ish
With a look in your eye so devilish
Uh ya like to dance at all the hip-hop spots
Then you cruise through the crews like connect the dots
Not just urban, she likes the pop
Cause she was living la vida loca

She had dumps like a truck, truck, truck
thighs like what? What? What?
Baby, move your butt, butt, butt
I think I'll sing it again!

She had dumps like a truck, truck, truck
thighs like what? What? What?
All night long...
Let me see that tho-o-o-ong! oooo! yeah, that thong thong thong thong thong!!!

Love it when the beat go
(Dut dun, dut dun)
When you make your booty goOOO!
(Dut dun, dut dun) baby
Girl I know you wanna show!
(Dut dun, dut dun)
That thong thong thong thong thong!!!!"

- Sisqo_

Now that is poetry in motion.

Before Arnisador teaches at seminars, he insists on a smoke machine, and this song to be played as his entrance music...

 :uhyeah:


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## thepanjr (Mar 19, 2005)

oh they were talking about aRNISADADOR and he was away or sumthin closed acc and sudennlly apeared out of nowhere


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 19, 2005)

yes he was away for a while and now has returned.
By the way   welcome back  jeff

He is the most prolific poster we have and has started more threads than anyone else.  Not oneliners  but posts with thought.


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## arnisador (Mar 19, 2005)

Hi * tshadowchaser*! Good to see you again. I hope all is well with you and yours?

To *thepanjr*: I came back for a very specific reason, but now that I'm back, I'm back! It was funny to find this thread, though.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 19, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Hi * tshadowchaser*! Good to see you again. I hope all is well with you and yours?
> 
> To *thepanjr*: I came back for a very specific reason, but now that I'm back, I'm back! It was funny to find this thread, though.



Jeff,

I told you the check was in the mail, you did not have to track me down. 

Welcome back, and let me know how things are going.


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## Klondike93 (Mar 19, 2005)

It's good to have you back arnisador  :wavey: 



 :supcool:


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## arnisador (Mar 19, 2005)

Thanks *Klondike93*, it's good to be back! But, I forgot how absorbing the site can be. How are things in Colorado? Lots of my friends were applying for jobs there this year (Boulder, Golden, Alamosa, Durango--college towns) because it's so beautiful there, they tell me. I'll stay at sea level, myself.

Things are very busy, Rich, but I should be getting a break soon. Starting in August I'll be spending 10 months in Albuquerque, NM, on sabbatical, doing nothing but high-powered computing at Sandia National Labs. The whole family's going. It should be fun.


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## Tgace (Mar 19, 2005)

Sounds like the report of your "death" was greatly exaggerated.


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## arnisador (Mar 19, 2005)

Yeah, it got better.


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## dearnis.com (Mar 20, 2005)

keep thinking about the pink thongs....it will get worse again....


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## arnisador (Mar 21, 2005)

Oh, the humanity!


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## Cruentus (Mar 22, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Oh, the humanity!



Don't make me type the "thong song" again... :lol:


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## Don Roley (Mar 22, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> There is no *arnisador*. It's just a tale told to frighten children.



Kind of like the Boogyman and Micheal Jackson?


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## Cruentus (Mar 22, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Kind of like the Boogyman and Micheal Jackson?



More like Micheal Jackson... :uhyeah:


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## Feisty Mouse (Mar 22, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yeah, it got better.


Come visit again.  Steak makes it all better.


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## arnisador (Mar 22, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Steak makes it all better.


 Finally, someone makes some sense!


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2009)

As I'm just spending most of my time in The Study arguing and not posting on martial arts much at all, and just raising my own blood pressure, I think it's a sign that my time has come (again?). So long, and thanks for all the fish!


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## Carol (Nov 17, 2009)

Awwww, I'll miss seeing you here.   

Time off can be a good thing.  Hope you come back after taking a break.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

arnisador said:


> As I'm just spending most of my time in The Study arguing and not posting on martial arts much at all, and just raising my own blood pressure, I think it's a sign that my time has come (again?). So long, and thanks for all the fish!




Do what I did, block the study.

Things got soooooooooo much better when I asked Bob to make it go away (for me)....and he did.

Now I look, read, respond from time to time and argue, get disgusted and annoyed so much less. And I find when something is posted somewhere else that is....well... not exactly correct..... I am so much nicer and there is little (or no) raise in Blood pressure at all.

Besides, you know what happens when you say so long and thanks for all the fish..... some of will be left to deal with Vogon Poetry :anic:


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2009)

Jeff requested his acct. closed.  Alternate suggestions were offered, and were declined.  He will not be able to respond to any posts here.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

bummer.

looks to me like the growing proliferation of political and social arguments is inevitably poisoning this community.  I think it's only a matter of time before more members will just get tired of it and wander off, never to return.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Nothing stopped him from spending more time in the art sections and contributing there, same as nothing stops anyone else from doing the same.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2009)

I'm not into politics...never have, never will.  That being said, I usually stay out of the political areas, other than to mod them, if necessary.  The Study...unless its a topic that interests me, the above applies.  We do not force anyone to post in a particular area.  If people dont have the self control to avoid that area, if it bothers them that much, they can request Bob to remove their access to it.  

As Bob said, nothing is stopping people from posting in the art sections.  I'll also add, that people will have varying opinions, especially in politics.  Its important to respect other opinions, even if you disagree.  IMO, I think alot of times, people let way too much bother them.  Here its easy...place the person on ignore.  But in RL, there is no ignore button.  You just deal with it, and move along.  What do people do if they disagree with a co-worker?  Quit their job?  

Its a forum people...and odds are, there is a good chance you'll never meet half the people you 'talk' with.  Post, and contribute to the forum in a positive matter.  That is what keeps the place going.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

true. 

however, with your own increased activity in the Study, it honestly begins to look like this forum is really designed to be a platform for you to deliver your political and social message, and the martial discussion is just camoflage.

I could see where people don't want to be affiliated with that, and simply avoiding the Study no longer is enough.

What is this site for? Is it really for martial discussion, or has politics taken over the top priority? Why not open a completely separate and unconnected site for political and social discussions, and keep Martialtalk for martial talk?

edit: my comments in this post were in response to Bob's comment, not MJS


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> true.
> 
> however, with your own increased activity in the Study, it honestly begins to look like this forum is really designed to be a platform for you to deliver your political and social message, and the martial discussion is just camoflage.
> 
> ...


 
I know this wasn't directed at me, and I dont want to speak for Bob, but I'll toss in my .02.  IMO, I wouldnt say its his political message, so to speak, but more of just an opinion.  I mean, I could start a rant/rave thread about healthcare, what this Senator did, what Obama is doing, etc., as a vent.  Maybe I'm just reading Bobs posts differently.  Again, I dont frequent those areas that much.  

As for the various sections....personally, I like the diversity we have here.  This forum is, IMO, first and foremost, a MA forum.  The art sections outnumber the political sections.  I like the other areas, and others may as well, as it gives a break from the art discussions.  Kinda like taking a new route to work, changing up your weight routine, etc.  You're still posting and discussing, just in a different field.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> bummer.
> 
> looks to me like the growing proliferation of political and social arguments is inevitably poisoning this community. I think it's only a matter of time before more members will just get tired of it and wander off, never to return.


 
I do see this as a possibility, but what I think you will see is a conveyor belt of people with old timers getting fed up and leaving only to be replaced by the next generation. Good or bad, that&#8217;s life on and off MT I guess, just on the internet things seem to go a lot faster.



MJS said:


> If people dont have the self control to avoid that area, if it bothers them that much, they can request Bob to remove their access to it.


 
Well being one that apparently did not have the "self control" I did ask Bob to block it and he did. The problem I was having with my "self control" and the study was I would read it with no intension of responding and then after reading a few pages of what was utter lack of knowledge on the topic being discussed I would comment and then find myself in where I did not want to be so I had Bob block it for me and I am rather happy about it, albeit still apparently lacking the "self control" to do it myself. But you know repeat something that is way off the mark to me in the real world and I will respond to that as well but there is less chance of an argument occuring because face to face people tend to listen more and hide behind the web less.



MJS said:


> What do people do if they disagree with a co-worker? Quit their job?


 
There is a WORLD of difference between the wild and wacky world of the web both on and off MT and the real world I am now sitting here typing in.

I enjoy discussing Martial Arts on MT but in the real world I hardly mention it at all. I have never once, outside of the MA people I know personally (and only once to one of them after a Kung Fu theater slow motion fight), ever uttered the words "You have offended my family and you have offended the Shaolin Temple" not even in a meeting at work no matter how upset I may have been at the time. The only major MA discussions I get into in the real world are with my Sifu and one or 2 of his other students. And there have been a few times I have taken a break form MT and even had my account closed but I came back everytime so far. But I do know I am posting less than I use to and that trend will likely continue. 

Of course that will make some rather happy  

But....

This is Bob's house and if we are here we must follow Bob's rules but I honestly feel that responding to long time posters (founding member) leaving in this way is simply taking it way to lightly. But then MT is not an island and many of the MA related Web pages I use to go to are either gone or changed so much they are no longer worth going to. MT has, so far, not changed that much... yet.

Hell I haven&#8217;t been here as long as the last 3 posters and arni and I have seen major changes, both good and bad, on MT in my time here.

And although I am not asking for a list, explanation or questioning why I have to say I have seen people here get banned that surprised me since they were rather knowledgeable in there area or they just leave on thier own and yet people who were/are argumentative and clueless go on like the energizer bunny. 

But admittedly (and sadly) I have no solutions


Arni, you will be missed


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> true.
> 
> however, with your own increased activity in the Study, it honestly begins to look like this forum is really designed to be a platform for you to deliver your political and social message, and the martial discussion is just camoflage.
> 
> ...




I haven't trained since 2005 due to injury. My ability to contribute to the art sections is minimal these days.

I'm sorry that you believe that 9 years of effort in building one of the largest martial arts communities around was just a ruse so that I could rant on politics. 

My post count is 2.83% of the total count. Please, feel free to drown out my insanity as Arni put it by posting serious martial arts content, something he hasn't done here since 2003.

The site is for martial arts discussion. It'd be nice to see those sections boosted, however I can't do it on my own, and I can't force the people who are active and who do know the stuff to do so.

Perhaps it's time for me to leave as well.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I haven't trained since 2005 due to injury. My ability to contribute to the art sections is minimal these days.


 
I am sorry for that.  Really I am, I mean that whole heartedly.  That would make me crazy.



> I'm sorry that you believe that 9 years of effort in building one of the largest martial arts communities around was just a ruse so that I could rant on politics.


 
I think the forum is becomming something that perhaps it was originally never intended to be.  I personally don't see it as a positive change.  I think that Martialtalk ought to go back to what I suspect was it's original intention: the discussion of martial arts and martial arts related topics.  Period.  

If people really want political discussion, if that's really important to some people including yourself, then I suggest a forum that is completely separate and not linked to Martialtalk.  That's my suggestion.

I think it's human nature to be unable to separate different faces of a person, once you've seen those faces.  I don't participate in the Study, because it is an aggravating place.  But I've seen many things expressed there that I absolutely disagree with, and I think they are often expressed thru a lack of solid information.  I also see things posted there that make me think that the poster is really just a miserable bastard.  I have actually lost respect for people because of what they post in the Study, and it's then hard for me to engage in martial discussion with them.  To me, once I've seen what I believe are their true colors, I can't ignore that.  And so the rest of the forums become poisoned.

Maybe I'm too sensitive about that.  Maybe I'm fairly typical.  But either way, I think it affects the rest of the forums in a negative way.  I think the Study is a source of irritation, aggravation, and even malice that then creeps into the other forums.

I dunno.  Maybe it's a good way to figure out who's who...



> The site is for martial arts discussion. It'd be nice to see those sections boosted, however I can't do it on my own, and I can't force the people who are active and who do know the stuff to do so.


 
There are a lot of people here, and the discussions do go on.  It is for the members to boost it or contribute or make it happen.  



> Perhaps it's time for me to leave as well.


 
Or just step back and take a look at where things are going.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2009)

What surprises me is this...I've often seen more posts in non art sections, by the martial artists here, than in the art sections.  Now, heres the question...if we did away with the study, the political forums, etc. would those same people start posting in their respective art area?  Makes me wonder, because I rarely see it now.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

When I closed the Study a while back, site traffic took a huge hit, many of the people left.  Dissenting views are welcome. I'll gladly remove access to anyone wanting to miss it completely.  I'm not sure what I can do otherwise.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 17, 2009)

Fair points in the sequence of points above.  The Art based forums do seem quiet in the main, especially the sword related ones :lol:.  I suppose in part that is because once you have espoused your thoughts on a certain arts pro's and cons, it is seldom that you revisit those thoughts again.  Whereas there is always something new to chatter about in the media, entertainment, politics, economics and religion fields.  Oddly, mind you, given that other 'social' areas are active, the History sections seem quiet too?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> When I closed the Study a while back, site traffic took a huge hit, many of the people left. Dissenting views are welcome. I'll gladly remove access to anyone wanting to miss it completely. I'm not sure what I can do otherwise.


 
I personally believe that as long as it remains a part of Martialtalk, it will have a negative impact on the site.  How many times has it become an issue for reconsideration?  Every six months or so?

Why not make the satellite forums a part of this one, and get rid of the non-martial stuff?  I never really understood why there needed to be a separate Kenpotalk, when Martialtalk has specific kenpo sections as well.  COuld that not be integrated back into Martialtalk and centralize it all?  Keep that traffic in one place, instead of spreading it thin?  Are there other sites, like Kenpotalk, that could also be brought back in here?

If the traffic drops when the study goes away, is that traffic even wanted here?  If it's largely off-topic to the main focus, then I'd say it didn't really belong in the first place.  What's the real focus?  Is it martial arts?  if so, then let's keep it that.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

MJS said:


> What surprises me is this...I've often seen more posts in non art sections, by the martial artists here, than in the art sections. Now, heres the question...if we did away with the study, the political forums, etc. would those same people start posting in their respective art area? Makes me wonder, because I rarely see it now.


 


Bob Hubbard said:


> When I closed the Study a while back, site traffic took a huge hit, many of the people left. Dissenting views are welcome. I'll gladly remove access to anyone wanting to miss it completely. I'm not sure what I can do otherwise.


 
OK you are both of the site, I am just a poster so I can't really answer any of these questions, and I wish I could but I can't. However maybe it is something for the site to think about and find an answer to could be MT should be PT, who knows. 

Could be the study is what most want
Could be that the study pushes a lot of people wanting to discuss MA away
Could be that when it is closed the people that post there go, and if you wait long enough the MA discussions will start back up
Could be that MAist don't really want to discuss MA that much
Could be any number of thnigs that may or may not be impossible to figure out
Could be I have no idea what so ever. (I am going with this one by the way)

Could be any number of things I do not have the stats for to figure out and to be honest I don&#8217;t want them either. But you have them, it&#8217;s your site and if you are happy with it then who cares what anyone else thinks. But if your not then it is time to think long and hard as to why you&#8217;re not happy. That is beyond the just being plain sick and tired of whiny users like me.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Kenpotalk doesn't want to be rolled back in to MT.
FMAT isn't my site so doesn't count.
The MMA site was dropped from non-use a while back, and I recently closed off the WNY stand alone for the same reason.

Xue hit it on the head, all those points are valid.

End result, you can't please everyone. We can't force anyone to post in any particular place.  The politics and off topic areas get the most dynamic growth. Until I stopped counting posts, the Last Person thread was the most active place on the site. People left over that. 

I've considered splitting off the politics but when I took a vote, it was pretty much shot down.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Kenpotalk doesn't want to be rolled back in to MT.
> FMAT isn't my site so doesn't count.
> The MMA site was dropped from non-use a while back, and I recently closed off the WNY stand alone for the same reason.
> 
> ...


 
Then I predict that eventually this site will have so little martial discussion that you will need to change the name to Politicaltalk.

As Xue said, it is your choice ultimately.  I think the site is being harmed.  I think it is being turned into something that I at least am not happy about.  I guess if the masses like it better that way, then I will be the one who needs to leave.  I understand that.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Kenpotalk doesn't want to be rolled back in to MT.


 
well, it seems like there is very little traffic over there, compared to over here.  Is it worth keeping a separate site for that?  And I see the political arguments are starting to creep in over there as well, so how long will it be before that site is just like this one?


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

*Posts in top 20 forums last 30 days  (art) (nonart)*
Tae-Kwon-Do         1274
The Study         1244
 General Martial Arts Talk         912
US Political Discussion and Debate         803
(staff)        415
 General Self Defense         282
The Urusai Bar & Grill         225
The Locker Room         221
MMA         201
Members in Motion         190
Kenpo / Kempo - General         167
Law Enforcement         166
Wing Chun         153
The Comedy Cafe         146
 Muay Thai         143
The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment)         139
Photography         123
Meet & Greet         122
The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials)         106  (I count this as either)
MT, After Dark         102

Art posts = 3,610
Non Art posts = 3,418  

My post count for the same time period was 532.  7%.

*New Topics last 30 days*  (art) 
MMA         111
(staff)         68
The Study         59
Tae-Kwon-Do         59
US Political Discussion and Debate         39
General Martial Arts Talk         36
FMA From Around the Web         36
(staff)          26
The Locker Room         25
The Urusai Bar & Grill         24
Muay Thai         19
The Comedy Cafe         15
Photography         14
Random Acts of Sanity         14
The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials)         12 (not counting)
Health Tips for the Martial Artist         12
General Self Defense         12
Wing Chun         11
Meet & Greet         11
Hapkido         11

Art topics = 318
non-art topics = 284 

My thread count was 73 topics out of 614. (12%) (only a bot was greater)


My argument here is, decreasing the non-art sections won't improve the art sections, it'l just kill the site.  Improve the art sections, and you drwon out the 'fluff'.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> well, it seems like there is very little traffic over there, compared to over here.  Is it worth keeping a separate site for that?  And I see the political arguments are starting to creep in over there as well, so how long will it be before that site is just like this one?


Politics on KT are different, most ignore it.  I introduced that, and additional paid features to try and build traffic.  So far, it's stagnant.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Posts in top 20 forums last 30 days (art) (nonart)*
> Tae-Kwon-Do 1274
> The Study 1244
> General Martial Arts Talk 912
> ...


 
Just as a clarification for me, if no one else, I did not get the impression from any of this discussion that this was a shotgun blast and the non-arts sections as much as targeted at the Study and possibly US Political Discussion and Debate sections all by themselves which then removes 2047 from your top forums last 30 day total of 3418 for non art leaving you 1371 non-art and for your New Topics in the last 30 days that takes out 98 from your non-art total of 284 leaving you with 186 if Study and the US Political Discussion and Debate were not here. 

for total posts of 4981 and 504 respectively


However it is likely, at least for a period of time that your post counts would drop in other areas due to some (not all) that post mainly in the Study and the US Political Discussion and Debate leaving MT. But then I would not be surprised if the post counts dropped in the arts section as the Study and the US Political Discussion and Debate increase


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Politics on KT are different, most ignore it. I introduced that, and additional paid features to try and build traffic. So far, it's stagnant.


 
I guess I don't understand why you want to build traffic that has nothing to do with the topic.  Is it a purely business decision?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> My argument here is, decreasing the non-art sections won't improve the art sections, it'l just kill the site. Improve the art sections, and you drwon out the 'fluff'.


 
What is your definition of "kill the site"?  Are you talking about business viability?  Would you need to close the site if that traffic went away?

Or is it just that things would be slower?

I agree with Xue, I think if these specific areas were done away with, some traffic would go immediately.  In my opinion, it's traffic that we shouldn't want, on a site that claims to be about martial arts.  

But eventually traffic would return, as the site became more focused on martial arts.  I wonder how many people have wandered away because of the arguments?  Those people who just wanted martial arts talk might come back and replace the argumentative Study and political discussions. Maybe more people would become paid members, if the site came back to focus on the martial topics and got rid of the extra stuff.  I think all the negative distractions might be making people reluctant to pay money to be a member.  Aggravation doesn't get money, in my book.

I think Martialtalk is becomming an angry place.  I think much of that anger originates in the Study and the political discussions and whatnot, and it bleeds into the rest of it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

It costs me several hundred dollars a month to pay for the server and bandwidth, and the support team that keeps the site running. Additional costs go into domain names, software fees, etc.  If I did this out of my pocket, MT would have shut down a long time ago.

The site can focus on martial arts. It doesn't want to. The sections are there, use them. If we removed the study, what will happen is the politics will be all over the site and we will spend a lot of time dealing with it, with people again screaming about over moderation, freedom of speech and what not.

I have offered to remove the study from the view of those who do not wish to see it. Since it seems that a fair number of members do enjoy it, why should I punish them?

Ironically, we see the most reports from the study, and the TKD area. Haven't seen 1 from any of the supporting member areas. Maybe the key here is, go pay only.

If MartialTalk is becoming an angry place, that is because the members are angry. What would you have me do, to make them all happy?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It costs me several hundred dollars a month to pay for the server and bandwidth, and the support team that keeps the site running. Additional costs go into domain names, software fees, etc. If I did this out of my pocket, MT would have shut down a long time ago.
> 
> The site can focus on martial arts. It doesn't want to. The sections are there, use them. If we removed the study, what will happen is the politics will be all over the site and we will spend a lot of time dealing with it, with people again screaming about over moderation, freedom of speech and what not.
> 
> ...


 
it's your site, you do with it as you feel is best, of course.

I don't know what to add, and I don't have all the answers.  But I think this site is going in a bad direction, and I would like to see it not go there.

I've given my thoughts, and I'll step out of the way.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It costs me several hundred dollars a month to pay for the server and bandwidth, and the support team that keeps the site running. Additional costs go into domain names, software fees, etc. If I did this out of my pocket, MT would have shut down a long time ago.
> 
> The site can focus on martial arts. It doesn't want to. The sections are there, use them. If we removed the study, what will happen is the politics will be all over the site and we will spend a lot of time dealing with it, with people again screaming about over moderation, freedom of speech and what not.
> 
> ...


 
Questions and only answer if you want to or can based on policy and rules, this is not a demand.

How many members of MT post in the study as opposed to those that do not? 

Of that how many would you call regulars in the study as opposed to the occasional poster?

How many paying members post in the study as opposed to those that do not? 

Of that how many would you call regulars in the study as opposed to the occasional poster?

Of the rather long list of current members how many are actually active?

Has the number of paying members gone up in the last year or down?

What is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I don't understand why you want to build traffic that has nothing to do with the topic.  Is it a purely business decision?


Let me explain.

No one posts on an dead site.   Why is the FMA area dead? Because it's dead.  People post, get no reply, they move on.  If you visit a forum and never see anything new, you eventually visit less and less, eventually you don't come back.    Posts = traffic, traffic = posts.  If you have 1, you can build the other. If you have neither, you're DOA. 

You want the CMA area to grow?  Post more on it. Bring new information up, keep old yet interesting topics going, get others involved and it can grow.  

Arnisidor's long standing complaint was that MT was nothing but chat n fluff. He said this back in 2003. His art posts are dwarfed by his non art posts. (most active in TLP thread 7,187 posts compared to 2,453 in General MA his next most active area).  He's a knowledgeable black belt yet only made 2,070 posts in 9 years in the FMA areas. This isn't an unusual comparison, so please don't think I'm singling him out here.  We have several high ranked kenpo instructors on here, yet they post rarely. We've had several high ranked instructors from numerous arts, they are regular lurkers, some have been since year 1, yet they rarely post.

Why, I don't know.  I can't make them post.  If they did, even a few posts each per month in their areas of expertize, we'd rapidly skyrocket to over 1,000 posts per day again. 

But I can only ask white belt questions so many times before people tune me out or start thinking I'm an idiot because I asked something last month and 'obviously' didn't get it.  

Staff have tried to engage people and a serious technical thread will get 20 views and 2-3 comments.  A piss up thread will get hundreds, generate a dozen reports and tie up hours of our time we could be doing something productive.

Bottom line is, you want more art talk, make it so.  Bump topics, start new ones, use the tools offered to tune out the garbage and help us to help you.

Or don't.  If the site grinds to a halt at some point in the future, I'll either sell it, archive it or just drop it and get back half my day and worry less about hackers, crackers and flamers.


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## Carol (Nov 17, 2009)

An African swallow or a European swallow?


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Questions and only answer if you want to or can based on policy and rules, this is not a demand.
> 
> How many members of MT post in the study as opposed to those that do not?
> _I'd estimate it's about a 10-15%
> ...



See italicized comments please.


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Staff have tried to engage people and a serious technical thread will get 20 views and 2-3 comments. A piss up thread will get hundreds, generate a dozen reports and tie up hours of our time we could be doing something productive.


 
I 2nd this!  I've posted threads in the Kenpo area.  Depending on the topic, a few different things will happen.  You'll get a page or 2 or replies, then it dies.  Point in case, a recent thread I started in the Kenpo area on the knife.  2 pages, asked another question, to date, no more replies.  Why?  I actually read a comment on the Kenponet.  It was in response to a question asked about Mike Pick.  Know what the reply was?  Mike Pick is a private guy, who doesn't want much said about what he does on the internet.  So now, you gotta watch what you say, otherwise you wont get any replies.  Amazing.

On the other hand...I've started threads on high rank and multiple arts, it led to a few people getting singled out, some feelings got hurt, mostly the feelings of the followers of that person, and so the story goes......

You'll also get some high ranking Kenpoists, who shall remain nameless, but they are/were members here, who post, but Godforbid you disagree...shiver at the thought of that...with them, and boom...they run away.  Oh, so we can't disagree with someone now?  Simply amazing.  Because we....no, let me clarify....because some dont bow down and kiss their ***, they get pissed off and leave.

Its frustrating...VERY frustrating.  I sit during free time at work, and try to drum up new Kenpo topics.  There are Kenpo people still here....please, feel free to start a thread or 2 or 3.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

Eliminate politics.   I could run the site off an old C=64.  

I trained Modern Arnis under Tim Hartman.  Tim runs 1 of oh, 5+ Arnis orgs.  Good luck getting the other orgs here though. I personally invited several of the heads. Few came, none stayed. Arnis politics, claims of favortism, etc.   We've invited numerous Kenpo org heads.  We have a few who stayed, most never even replied to the invites. We set up an area specific for them, but it sat there with little traffic other than people asking questions and getting silence back.   Guys, no one here feels the lack of art topics more than me.  But if folks won't use it, my hands are tied.  And that frustrates me daily.


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## theletch1 (Nov 17, 2009)

I've been here going on seven years.  In that time I've seen the site grow from a relatively small site to the size it is now.  The more non-art sub-sections that have been added the larger the membership seems to have gotten.  Much (half?) of my time here has been as a member of staff or as a mentor and I've seen the work load in the staff section dealing with problematic posts/posters ebb and flow. One of my fellow staff members pointed out that some things are ever as the tide (I'm paraphrasing, he's much more eloquent) in the rise and fall of trouble, discord and kumbaya moments.  Right now the mood on the site really seems to reflect a general mood in the "real world".  There is nothing... did I say nothing?... that staff can do to make everything all better.  Close the non-art sections?  Half would cheer and the other half would scream.  Hell, look at the hissy fit folks threw over the last rep reset.  Folks, we're all adults.  For the most part we're all really great people.  We're a community... by choice.  As you have the crazy neighbor in your neighborhood we have them here.  Ignore them, report them and ignore them what ever.  Ultimately, the site is going to go as the majority of members go.  Find the folks that truly piss you off and put them on ignore or learn to chuckle at the "crazy neighbors" antics and move along without giving them too much credence.  Thanks for reading my little rant. Now, if you'll excuse me I hear a bottle of Jameson's and a pot of coffee calling my name.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> No one posts on an dead site. Why is the FMA area dead? Because it's dead. People post, get no reply, they move on. If you visit a forum and never see anything new, you eventually visit less and less, eventually you don't come back. Posts = traffic, traffic = posts. If you have 1, you can build the other. If you have neither, you're DOA.


 
There was once a serious sanshou site that died off. But it was because it was populated by serious sanshou fighters that were training too much to post...but it was nice while it lasted... and likely the only site I know that died for a good reason I think it still exists but I don't think there has been a post on it in a year.



Bob Hubbard said:


> You want the CMA area to grow? Post more on it. Bring new information up, keep old yet interesting topics going, get others involved and it can grow.


 
The problem with CMA is the nature of the beast. Those that train with traditional sifus do not talk much about it and to come on MT and yak is fun at first but eventually you start getting this nagging feeling that it is just wrong and you really should shut up. And in my case I am pretty sure I lost a sifu (who was more computer savvy than I thought) because I was yakking on MT and I am not all that happy about that. There are other issues I the CMA section as well as just about any other MA section on the site (you can only answer the same question or argue the same point so many times, etc.) but I really dont want to turn this into a flame post that you will eventually have to lock so..



Bob Hubbard said:


> Arnisidor's long standing complaint was that MT was nothing but chat n fluff.


 
And he is not completely wrong, IMO. There is a lot of fluff but not all from what I see.... but I see the point that you and MJS are trying to make here about such things I just dont have the energy anymore Heck I think Ive posted more in this thread today than I have in a long time



Bob Hubbard said:


> Or don't. If the site grinds to a halt at some point in the future, I'll either sell it, archive it or just drop it and get back half my day and worry less about hackers, crackers and flamers.


 
Yes but aren't hackers, crackers and flammers fun :barf:




Bob Hubbard said:


> See italicized comments please.


 
This is making a bit more sense to me now, Thanks


Lastly, as I said before Arni will be missed, as others have been and others will be as they leave MT. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> I've been here going on seven years. In that time I've seen the site grow from a relatively small site to the size it is now. The more non-art sub-sections that have been added the larger the membership seems to have gotten. Much (half?) of my time here has been as a member of staff or as a mentor and I've seen the work load in the staff section dealing with problematic posts/posters ebb and flow. One of my fellow staff members pointed out that some things are ever as the tide (I'm paraphrasing, he's much more eloquent) in the rise and fall of trouble, discord and kumbaya moments. Right now the mood on the site really seems to reflect a general mood in the "real world". There is nothing... did I say nothing?... that staff can do to make everything all better. Close the non-art sections? Half would cheer and the other half would scream. Hell, look at the hissy fit folks threw over the last rep reset. Folks, we're all adults. For the most part we're all really great people. We're a community... by choice. As you have the crazy neighbor in your neighborhood we have them here. Ignore them, report them and ignore them what ever. Ultimately, the site is going to go as the majority of members go. Find the folks that truly piss you off and put them on ignore or learn to chuckle at the "crazy neighbors" antics and move along without giving them too much credence. Thanks for reading my little rant. Now, if you'll excuse me I hear a bottle of Jameson's and a pot of coffee calling my name.


 

 now DO YOU SEE!!!! :tantrum:

That right there is the WHOLE problem with MT...... people won't share

Where is MY Jameson's and coffee HUH!!!!!


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## MJS (Nov 17, 2009)

I try to start at least 1-2 new threads a week, although sometimes it doesnt happen.  I'll also cruise old threads, bumping ones that looked good, in hopes to start more discussion on an oldie but goodie.

Today, I tried to bump that Kenpo thread I mentioned, and started 2 new threads.  I think that if people made an effort to start a new thread here and there, in art areas, if thats what they feel is lacking, then thats half the battle.  Hell, I've even gone into art sections I dont train in, and started threads.  You dont have to study the art to ask a question.  Of course, if its a legit question, thats one thing.  If its trolling, well.....


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 17, 2009)

I miss most of the people who leave, especially when they've been here a long time and start to feel like family.

I'm taking a 7-10 day leave shortly. I'll have no phone nor internet access for that time period. I need the break.


I could do what some sites do, purge old threads regularly. But, some info you never get back. Then again, how many people look through the old topics I wonder.   

The issue is, some want to talk politics, some want to talk art, and some just want to talk, and others just read.  We've got an active group in the TKD area, active groups in the others would be great.  But......you hit it on the head.  Art politics, the "I cant talk about that here" and so on kill alot of good topics.  So it goes.   I shut the Study down after the 2008 election, and got hammered in hate mail over it. In the end, no matter what I do, it'll piss off folks, cost us members, cost us money, and create ill feelings. I'm in a no win position it feels like.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm taking a 7-10 day leave shortly. I'll have no phone nor internet access for that time period. I need the break.


 
Your damed if you do and your damned of you don't

Take a break... some of my best vacations were working on a tree farm in the mountains of Pa with no computers within 50 miles or more and absolutly no one (other than family) had the phone number of the cabin on the property

but before you go 

WHERE'S MY Jameson's and coffee?


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## Drac (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I
> 
> I could do what some sites do, purge old threads regularly. But, some info you never get back. Then again, how many people look through the old topics I wonder.


 
I do A LOT....Especially some of the non-sensical threads that I subscribed to...It provides a laugh and reminds me of happier times.. 



Bob Hubbard said:


> The issue is, some want to talk politics, some want to talk art, and some just want to talk, and others just read. We've got an active group in the TKD area, active groups in the others would be great. But......you hit it on the head. Art politics, the "I cant talk about that here" and so on kill alot of good topics. So it goes. I shut the Study down after the 2008 election, and got hammered in hate mail over it. In the end, no matter what I do, it'll piss off folks, cost us members, cost us money, and create ill feelings. I'm in a no win position it feels like.


 
I dont know the secret to sucess but I know the secret to failure, Trying To Please Everybody....


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## Carol (Nov 17, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I think Martialtalk is becomming an angry place.  I think much of that anger originates in the Study and the political discussions and whatnot, and it bleeds into the rest of it.



It may also be the board is reflecting other things too.  I think several of my own posts have been harder sounding than I intended them to be.  This isn't because Im angry at another person or categorically intolerant of their views.  I've generally been better at being straightforward than I am at being tactful.  There have been a number of strains in my own life (unrelated to MT) that have worn me down a bit which in turn has worn down my "internal tact filter" that wasn't working that well to begin with. 

Not saying that to make an excuse but I do want to apologize to anyone that I may have hurt or thought I was snipping at them.

A lot of people around me have been facing some significant changes in their life, not all of them good.   Its possible that people here on MT are facing similar things, and that we are also seeing similar strains through their posts.


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## Jenna (Nov 17, 2009)

You know I hate to see people leave specially familiar names because there is a certain reassurance there and also when good MA people leave, they do take a lot of MA knowledge and expertise with them which was kind of why I joined initially..

I do not know if the study is central in this decision and but I would worry that anyone leaving a forum as a protest is not well versed in protests! For tomorrow they will be forgotten except in skeleton threads like this one was looking all sepia and worn.  

I am not such a fan of the Study and but then I am not from the US and am not wise to US politics.  Nor do I enjoy pontificating dogma and rhetoric that is de rigeur on there haha.. Still, personally I make my own space here as I would on any other social site.  Perhaps I dine here a little lighter than before when the food is not to my taste and but then I would come back when there is more tasty on offer 

Yes I think the site has changed even since I have been here and but that is good, no? Otherwise as *Suke *has said, we would all be debating the same old stuff over ad infinitum. 

To *Michael*, I totally understand your frustration and but can I ask please if you were so inclined, how would you like the site to be? Exclusively MA?  I would envisage an initial drop off in visitors then and I wonder how the arts areas could be ramped up to compensate for the lost traffic?  In the Aikido area there are tumbleweeds that would need to be taken out first! haha.. And but then that is up to the posters.  If I were that bothered I would surely post more stuff there and kickstart it, no?

Me, I kind of like it how it is.. [or maybe I am resigned to it haha] I like my music and stuff and for me this is another way to meet nice ppl who I know at least I will have one thing in common with to some extent: a love or, or passing interest in MA.  Anything else is just extra sprinkles.

Jenna x


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> No one posts on an dead site. Why is the FMA area dead? Because it's dead. People post, get no reply, they move on. If you visit a forum and never see anything new, you eventually visit less and less, eventually you don't come back. Posts = traffic, traffic = posts. If you have 1, you can build the other. If you have neither, you're DOA.


 
is there not enough active members, keeping the martial discussions going, that people will come back for that? Do we need to draw them in with a high post count, when many of those posts have nothing to do with martial arts? When I drop in, I see many many non-martial arts posts, and I just ignore them. In fact, I'm often disappointed, because I think, Hey, maybe there's some good stuff going on. Then I see it's just more bickering. 



> Staff have tried to engage people and a serious technical thread will get 20 views and 2-3 comments. A piss up thread will get hundreds, generate a dozen reports and tie up hours of our time we could be doing something productive.


 
yes, i've seen this done many times, and I've tried to get intelligent threads going as well. They get a page or two and die off, while carnage gets 20 pages of discussion and bickering. I don't get it either. I guess we can't seem to walk away from a stupid argument.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Jenna said:


> To *Michael*, I totally understand your frustration and but can I ask please if you were so inclined, how would you like the site to be? Exclusively MA? I would envisage an initial drop off in visitors then and I wonder how the arts areas could be ramped up to compensate for the lost traffic? In the Aikido area there are tumbleweeds that would need to be taken out first! haha.. And but then that is up to the posters. If I were that bothered I would surely post more stuff there and kickstart it, no?


 
I don't know, exactly.  In some ways, the cat is out of the bag and I don't know if it can be undone.

Personally, I think the martial discussions can sustain themselves.  Yes, the site will be smaller, especially initially after a change were made.  But I think it would be possible to have a viable site focused on martial talk, when that is in fact the name of the site.

Drac mentioned that you can't please everyone.  This is true.  But maybe having all these other discussion areas is an attempt to do so.  I think the site is losing it's focus and gaining a new one.  Maybe people are happy with that.  For me, I find it disappointing.

It doesn't feel so much like a place for martial arts discussion anymore because it's laden with distractions, and that is what makes me less likely to come around.  It feels like nobody wants it to be that anymore.  

OK, if that's how people feel, then that's how people feel.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 17, 2009)

Of course if Bob is unable to financially keep the site going, then it will all come to an end.  I understand that.  

I'm reminded of a Tae kwon Do school in my neighborhood.  They are offering a half hour piano lesson with each TKD lesson.  Everyone's looking for a way to get creative and keep financially solvent.  It's a problem, I know.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 17, 2009)

Good comments with clear reflection and thought behind them, Michael.  It is a truth of the Net that sites become what their posters rather than their owners (or staff) want them to be.  

The nature of a site is determined by those that post at then end of the day, just as a beach is shaped by the inexorable flux of the tides.

I actually cleave to your stance closely myself but our Cap'n is not an independantly wealthy fellow and if the site is to help in paying for it's own existence I am afraid that the 'side order' of the Study is the price to be paid to keep the bandwidth flowing for the other areas (at present at least).


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2009)

On the financial issue...  A supporting membership ain't all that much.  You don't get special treatment from the mods -- but you do get access to some areas that aren't open for free.  And you're kind of putting your money where your mouth is.  (This semi-annual pledge drive is not aimed at any one member... but if it's striking home -- think about it.)  Times are tight for everybody, but the supporting membership is less than a buck a week.


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## shesulsa (Nov 17, 2009)

MartialTalk.com has a quality other boards don't. Those boards are message boards or chat boards and some are even little gangs.

MartialTalk.com is a community.  There's a lot of things that go into a community, all of which contribute to the color and flavor of the place.  Mom & Pop shops, big chain grocery stores, a music shop here and there, a salon, a Starbucks AND a Timmy's ... you get the idea.

I've had my own opinions on certain happenings on MT and as long as you have real people running a board, you will always have waves of varying decor about.  When there's trouble in Little China, then stay out of that district.

Like Xue, I had study access shut off for a while and have since returned, and even then, only lightly. Like Bob, I have several injuries and had some serious real-life occurrences that have kept me off of training for about four years, so it's nice to have a one-stop community module instead of having to log on to many different communities for different purposes.

I'll miss Arnisador here and am glad to have befriended him on Facebook.  Hopefully, after a rest, he'll return again. If not ... feel free to cultivate your particular Martial Arts garden right here in town.

Cheers!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 17, 2009)

I personally love looking at the martial sections on MartialTalk.  I rarely wander over to the study and certainly I hardly ever post there.  One of the reasons I stepped down as an administrator was being tired of moderating in certain areas.  Still those areas are interesting to some people who practice martial arts. (just not me)  So if they fill a need for some then personally I think that is great!


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## grydth (Nov 17, 2009)

This is an eerie thread, so many old members with "Account Closed"..... It is a cyber cemetery. One can only wish each and every one of them well.


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 17, 2009)

arnisador said:


> As I'm just spending most of my time in The Study arguing and not posting on martial arts much at all, and just raising my own blood pressure, I think it's a sign that my time has come (again?). So long, and thanks for all the fish!


 
Make sure you let us know when there is anything posted for an intergalactic by-way.


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## Archangel M (Nov 17, 2009)

My opinion. People go to forums to TALK. Martial arts is predominantly a DO proposition. Discussions about physical techniques are going to stall out fast and get repetitive quickly. After all there really are only so many ways to punch, kick, throw etc.

What do people like to talk about? We all see that everyday here. Politics, drama, religion, pop-culture, and "concepts". 

Is there REALLY anything wrong with that?


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## Archangel M (Nov 17, 2009)

Look at how much traffic a thread just talking about controversy gets.


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## jks9199 (Nov 17, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> MartialTalk.com has a quality other boards don't. Those boards are message boards or chat boards and some are even little gangs.
> 
> MartialTalk.com is a community.  There's a lot of things that go into a community, all of which contribute to the color and flavor of the place.  Mom & Pop shops, big chain grocery stores, a music shop here and there, a salon, a Starbucks AND a Timmy's ... you get the idea.
> 
> ...


Fantastic post, Shesulsa.


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## Hollywood1340 (Nov 17, 2009)

Why does it seem that I'm longing for a "back in the day" when it comes to this site? Call me jaded but I remember the big names back then. It felt like...a clubhouse. Like I was here to hang out with my friends and talk about what brought me here in the first place, martial arts. We'd rib each other, share inside jokes, be post whores about the dumbest things. I go and look up those old threads and there is a lot of fun there. Sure there were a lot of non-art posts but it was to bring us together, not pull us apart. So I do come here everyday, laugh for cry at the new politic posts, debate if I'm going to vote for Kaith in 2012 and go back to where my friends are. Facebook.


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## Ceicei (Nov 17, 2009)

grydth said:


> This is an eerie thread, so many old members with "Account Closed"..... It is a cyber cemetery. One can only wish each and every one of them well.



That is what struck me too when I saw this thread and started looking through... wow...  Seeing all those names of those who came through... and wondering what their varied stories are and how they're doing now.   A cyber cemetery, indeed.

- Ceicei


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 18, 2009)

James, please don't take the following personally.  I'm venting, it's not aimed at anyone in particular.


So, I guess the question is then, since everyones on FaceSpace...why am I wasting $500 a month here....why did I just drop a $160 to upgrade the software....

I can't compete with Facebook.  They have 300 million people posting about their farmvilles, and their picture of the days and their vampires and joining all these groups that never ever seem to update, and posting about what they had for lunch or their last bowel movement.... it's a 300 million person LPT.

Ya know....I'm sorry our rules require people to act like adults. I'm sorry that alot of these "Masters" can't handle it when someone tells them 'no'. I'm sorry that X won't post because we won't ban Y, or that Z keeps posting "incorrect" information and X is boycotting us until we allow them to hurl insults.  I'm sorry that I can't provide constant entertainment, millions of dollars of programming, and immediate response on a site that's mostly comprised of unpaying members.

I can implement a monthly membership fee, $29.95, supercharge the site and actually pay the staff.  Oh wait, $20 a year is too much, the sites not worth it, and all internet should be free.  Not to mention 95% of the members would just leave.  Hell, some of those old timers left because I added an optional paid level.  Some left when I started accepting sponsors. 

You know, there are actually people here who think I should spend $6,000 a year so they can call me an ******* for suggesting they calm down in a thread that's a hair short of getting physical?

I had people quit when I reset the rep system, they quit when I locked the study, they quit when I reopened it, they quit when I added the fracking thing.  A whole group quit when I banned someone for posting his account info on USENET, another group quit when I wouldn't let them post 4,000 demands for paperwork on every thread, hell, 1 guy quit because we moved his thread, and I can think of 40 who quit because we got tired of them only popping in to post seminars and not tossing a bone our way.

Seeing a trend here?

I got quit notices because I added a paid arcade, I got quit notices because I insulted George Bush, because I insulted Hillary Clinton, because I wouldn't let someone post racist and gay bash crap.  I had people quit because my former instructor took a rank promotion for petes sake.

In the midst of this crap, every certified fraud in the universe seems to scream legal threats when their names come up, the big fraud buster site trolls us every 6-8 months, and god help us if someone questions Soke 'lotta paper'.

Add in the occasional software/server/browser/network glitch, the idiots who think it's ok to use "notgunnatellu" as their name when they sign up then spend 3 days arguing the posted policy and then signup a dozen obvious fake accounts just to waste our time.....

And my doctor says I need to cut back on my stress.

I spend 2-3 hrs a day on here, 7 days a week, every day.  Activating accounts, checking on tickets, making sure things are working.  I try to seed new topics to generate conversation (over 80 this past month), bump active ones to keep them going, add some controversy to mix things up, handle member questions by email and PM (I've got 150 unread pms right now....i'm backlogged majorly)....and do it on 2 other forums (I shut the Dead Parrot down weeks ago as it was dead).


And my thanks is, I get called crazy by a friend, get told I can't succeed by another, have a few others tell me they are quitting because I running a platform for crackpot politics, and wonder how many others just left without even saying goodbye.


And I wonder why I bother, why I don't just pull the plug, and walk away.


Because we have people on here who make all that fracking ******** worth it.  I met some great people in Atlanta on my August trip. Got to hang out with Flea and MA Caver too.  I've got people all across the continent and over in England and Sweden and Germany and the PI who have extended invitations to visit, sent me thanks for running a site where they can come and feel welcome, where they can relax and not get into the "dick measuring" you find on so many other sites.  I've gotten dozens of thanks from people who found schools, or training partners, and in at least 1 case a life partner. 



Heres the deal.
If I am out of line, I expect to be called on it.  The long timers should know by now I'm man enough to apologize when I go too far, and man enough to accept correction when I'm wrong.  You folks are going to have to build the art sections. There's not much I can do there right now, other than post a few videos as I find them, or add some opinion as I can.  You want meat, seed it, nurture it, grow it and help us, help you get it.  You want less politics...well, I can't kill a popular section.....add more non-politics and make it a smaller % of the site. I've long said I'd love to see history, articles, videos, bios, technique break downs, interviews, event reports, etc.  Hell, just posting some short review of your last seminar and a couple of pics can get things moving.  Work with us, we're here to work with you. I'm keeping the lights on and the door open. It's up to you where it goes from here.

That's the best I can do folks.


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## Carol (Nov 18, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> MartialTalk.com has a quality other boards don't. Those boards are message boards or chat boards and some are even little gangs.
> 
> MartialTalk.com is a community.  There's a lot of things that go into a community, all of which contribute to the color and flavor of the place.  Mom & Pop shops, big chain grocery stores, a music shop here and there, a salon, a Starbucks AND a Timmy's ... you get the idea.
> 
> ...



Will you be my MartialTalkVille neighbor?


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## James Kovacich (Nov 18, 2009)

Theres no need to fix what aint broke. All big forums have a diversification and no-one is bound to visit all that a forum has to offer. Bob deserves his do credit. It takes a lot to do what he's done here, made it a place worth coming back to.
:asian:

There are times when I just can't be on the net and I doubt that I am the only one. Then theres times of the year that forums have slower posts counts. Combine all that with limiting the access ...


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 18, 2009)

I know where you're coming from Bob, being in an admin seat myself.
As soon as you get more than 5 members, there will always be people who are upset with something or other.

Sometimes there is a major upheaval, senior people leave, there is wailing and the gnashing of teeth, and then things eventually get back to normal. I've learned not to care. It is the way of the world. It's as predicatable as the tides of the ocean. Sometimes people are depressingly easy to understand. As long as the behavior baseline of the majority is fine, the community won't suffer. Senior people are far less important than they themselves sometimes think.

I've seen many seniors leave, and have been asked by their fans to roll over in public and beg them to come back. I always refuse. The community is bigger than any one person. And what usually happens is that the gaps they leave are often filled fairly quickly. Because they are gone, others get a chance to shine and sometimes the entire community is better off. And sometimes people swallow their pride and come back. that is fine too.

I would like to close with the following vids:

[yT]sPHMnREkLiY[/yT]

And if that doesn't help, then think of the following:

[yT]ZBR2G-iI3-I[/yT]

For as long as you know how to love, you'll survive. Corny, I know. sorry for that
As long as you realize that the majority here loves this place, and appreciates what you do, the trouble makers will not be able to get under your skin.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> That's the best I can do folks.



That may be the crux of the matter. MT has a face, Bob, and it's yours, and those of the forum staff. Facebook, MySpace, etc, have faq pages and email forms. You can't tell Facebook to go get stuffed because Facebook doesn't care -- every account is money in the bank, and when someone leaves, someone else joins.

I know that there have been troubles on the forum. I recall about a year ago the mods started a thread about the endless complaints, PMs, emails, long-distance calls regarding problems in the politics forum. Even just reading it, one could discern the toll it was taking.

Ditching the politics forum means invariably that politics will ooze out elsewhere. If you take the honourary black belt for President Obama as an example -- in a regular MA discussion that would probably blow up. I understand why the Study is there, and its political stepchild.


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## shesulsa (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob, the testament that is all your effort lies right here.  You have folks telling you what they like and what they don't like - you have something here for everyone.  You can't keep from rubbing people the wrong way because they put their owies on their sleeve.  It's that 100% - 100% (can't please all of the people all of the time) thing.

I know it's frustrating and really, if it didn't bother you to some extent then you should give the place over. You care and it shows and it matters to people.  This means, of course, that you can never not take "it" personally.

Keep hanging, Bob.  You have better content than one of the other big three and better values than the other one. Hang tight.



Carol Kaur said:


> Will you be my MartialTalkVille neighbor?



 Let me get my Keds and zip-up cardy and we'll have some make-believe!


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 18, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Like Xue, I had study access shut off for a while and have since returned, and even then, only lightly. Like Bob, I have several injuries and had some serious real-life occurrences that have kept me off of training for about four years, so it's nice to have a one-stop community module instead of having to log on to many different communities for different purposes.


 
Ahhh another one with no "self control" just like me 

To give credit where credit is due
I had the Study ERASED from my view per shesulsa's suggestion and I am very happy she suggested it to me... thanks :asian:

But I AIN'T GOIN' BACK!!!!


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## blindsage (Nov 18, 2009)

Hey, Bob,












*Thanks!!!!!*


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## Tensei85 (Nov 26, 2009)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't know, exactly. In some ways, the cat is out of the bag and I don't know if it can be undone.
> 
> Personally, I think the martial discussions can sustain themselves. Yes, the site will be smaller, especially initially after a change were made. But I think it would be possible to have a viable site focused on martial talk, when that is in fact the name of the site.
> 
> ...


 
To be honest here is my opinion as a "newb" I generally don't post on these important threads as I'm just a little guy. (Haha, I'm not a midget for the record!)

But if the Political in nature threads were dismantled, then as Flying Crane put it the focus would be put back on M.A. topics which in fact would bring in more "serious M.A. posters". The only problem with this idea is the time factor, who knows how long it would take...

So the key theoretically is to bring in more Serious, knowledgeable practitoners of the Martial Arts but to do that I feel the focus would have to be on Martial Arts topics. But then there stands a chance that it would turn into another KFO, so I guess politics may enter into the site no matter what but I guess that's what it means to moderate... Who knows??

For the record I agree for the present that your solution to band access to the threads that people don't want to visit for those specific people may be the best solution to make all parties happy, but I would also like to see more Martial Arts only specific postings but that's just me.

Bob, I know that you have to do what you have to do to get by & for the record I'm grateful for your efforts in establishing & keeping this site regulated 24/7. It's been a great source of information, guidance & even humor to all of us. So thanks for that.


Just getting my feelings off of my chest, for however little as they are worth. Have a great vacation!


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## Tensei85 (Nov 26, 2009)

Also I'll miss you Arnisador, take care.


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## Brian King (Nov 27, 2009)

Bob
I read earlier in this thread that you have not practiced any martial arts since 2005 because of an injury. I cannot give you advice on running a forum, you have been cursed with much more expertise on that than I ever hope to gain, BUT (you knew that was coming didnt ya) I will say that it is time for you to start training once again. It will change the way this board and so many other things are affecting your life. I do not know the nature of your injury but do know that there are martial practices that you can participate in, you just have to find them. That is my opinion, otherwise you are the drunk sitting in a bar but unable to have a cold beer. That has to weigh on your spirit and your soul. Change one area of your life for the better and the other areas of your life also necessarily improve, want to improve the board still after all you have already done, then simply improve another area of your life. You did this when you married, do it again by starting your martial training once again, not in spite of old injuries but because of them. Good luck and enjoy your vacation.

My pardons for butting in unasked

Warmest regards
Brian King


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> But if the Political in nature threads were dismantled, then as Flying Crane put it the focus would be put back on M.A. topics which in fact would bring in more "serious M.A. posters". The only problem with this idea is the time factor, who knows how long it would take...
> 
> So the key theoretically is to bring in more Serious, knowledgeable practitoners of the Martial Arts but to do that I feel the focus would have to be on Martial Arts topics. But then there stands a chance that it would turn into another KFO, so I guess politics may enter into the site no matter what but I guess that's what it means to moderate... Who knows??



The problem is this: if you don't have an area in your forum where people can discuss off-topic things (including politics), then the topical part of the forum becomes harder to police, since off topic stuff has a way of seeping in if it has no place of its own.

You can fix this by increased moderation and giving the mods a much harder job. Now, this is perfectly possible. Look at the msdn.microsoft.com/forums forums. Very efficient, and very tightly controlled, but also impersonal as anyhing. No human interaction at all, just problem solving.

If you want a community where people can interact in a friendly fashion, and share their life's joys and tragedies, and become friends, then you are stuck with allowing the human need for conversation.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 8, 2009)

Brian said:


> Bob
> I read earlier in this thread that you have not practiced any martial arts since 2005 because of an injury. I cannot give you advice on running a forum, you have been cursed with much more expertise on that than I ever hope to gain, BUT (you knew that was coming didnt ya) I will say that it is time for you to start training once again. It will change the way this board and so many other things are affecting your life. I do not know the nature of your injury but do know that there are martial practices that you can participate in, you just have to find them. That is my opinion, otherwise you are the drunk sitting in a bar but unable to have a cold beer. That has to weigh on your spirit and your soul. Change one area of your life for the better and the other areas of your life also necessarily improve, want to improve the board still after all you have already done, then simply improve another area of your life. You did this when you married, do it again by starting your martial training once again, not in spite of old injuries but because of them. Good luck and enjoy your vacation.
> 
> My pardons for butting in unasked
> ...


Problem is, that's how I often feel, like somethings missing.  But, recent vacation has helped me recharge a bit, and I'm slowly healing to the point where it may be possible to do some light workouts again soon.  So, things are slowly looking up. I discuss options weekly with my chiropractor and quarterly with my regular doctor. Be nice to get out and work out again.


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## grydth (Dec 8, 2009)

While I respect the right of everyone here to do with their lives as they see fit, Brian does have a point. There are martial arts which injured and  disabled people can engage in. Tai Chi and Qi Gong come to mind, but there are unquestionably others.


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## jks9199 (Dec 8, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Problem is, that's how I often feel, like somethings missing.  But, recent vacation has helped me recharge a bit, and I'm slowly healing to the point where it may be possible to do some light workouts again soon.  So, things are slowly looking up. I discuss options weekly with my chiropractor and quarterly with my regular doctor. Be nice to get out and work out again.


Bob... Have you considered something like yoga or tai chi, at least until you can do more vigorous arts?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 8, 2009)

For a while even Tai Chi and Yoga were on the no list.  I'll be asking about them as I've heard some good things about yoga helping some of the particulars.   Short version is a dozen or so disc herniation's and tears and bulges causing all sorts of 'fun', including enough of a loss of grip strength for me to consider stick drills unsafe. (that flying stick isn't smart y'know?).  Constant numbness in both hands also isn't fun either.


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## Brian King (Dec 9, 2009)

Bob, I have been fortunate to be able to do the work with many people considered disabled One of my heroes is now totally blind but now at least has a new kidney. He trained with us for the last couple of years traveling hundreds of miles across an international border with no kidneys and a host of other physical problems, having to watch how much he sweated, what he drank etc or face extreme pain, illness and possibly death, I have another that has a prosthetic leg, another that is deaf, and a host of others in various stages of diseases illnesses or injuries including severely injured backs and necks. They all have great excuses why they cannot do our martial art yet they do it anyway and it has benefited their lives and the lives of loved ones around them so much more than a person would have thought possible. It is a wonder that I give thanks for being able to witness and to share a small part of

You can participate Bob, BUT, you have to be an adult about it. Poznia Sebia (discover yourself) should be your goal in my opinion. Not becoming super bad *** guy, discover yourself and heal yourself and correct training and breathing will do both. Work more on the mental aspects ALONG with some of the physical aspects. Change your perspective so that you can enjoy the weaknesses you now have as they will teach you more than you ever wanted to know about yourself and allow you to work on improving those areas of your life that you can. Be an adult and do not over train. If ten minutes is too long then fine start out at just five minutes. Listen to your body and learn to push it just hard enough. Most important I think is to find ways that make the frustration fun. Try to make your practices childlike and playful rather than physical therapy that you have to force yourself to get thru. For a long time Bob your training has been mental (if you consider your work here on MT as type of training) but it is unbalanced and I am sure that you could feel that unbalance and frustration leak all thru your life and relationships. We need good physical work along with good challenging mental work and good rewarding spiritual work to make a well rounded person. When one area is avoided or weak and broken it DOES effect all the other areas negatively. Understand that when I say good hard physical or challenging or rewarding work I do not mean that you have to be training like some kind of Olympian. Hard physical for you at this very moment might be just getting into the push up position for twenty secondsthat is enough if that is where you are at. Hard physical work might be doing one of those FMA number pattern things for twenty secondsOK or a yoga posture for twenty seconds. That twenty seconds will translate all thru your life my friend. You do not have to push it to a minute, you will know when to push it as you learn to listen to what your body is trying to tell you. If you need to glue a couple of sticks to those MMA gloves and tie the gloves onto your hands and have your wife wear a helmet when she is near, do whatever and get enjoyment out of the very little strides back that you make, get enjoyment out of the stumbles and the setbacks as well they can be very funny my friend at least mine certainly are. A little change of perspective will go a long ways brother and trust me it multiplies not just in your martial practice but in every aspect of your life, the physical the mental and the spiritual. Bob, life is ment to be lived, tasted and enjoyed...not in spite of the setbacks that we face but because of them.

Good luck
Warmest wishes
Brian King


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