# Favourite Haymaker Defence.



## myusername (Nov 4, 2008)

Hello everyone. Last week in my Jujutsu class we were looking at defending yourself from someone swinging haymaker punches at your head. As I'm sure most will probably know the haymaker is the common swinging punch thrown from the pub brawler. It's not quite a hook but more of a flailing arm with a fist at the end! Don't know how else to describe it really....

Anyway, we practiced a few techniques ranging from blocking and striking to grappling and take downs. One that has really stood in my mind is covering up well and moving in towards the person nice and close, strike the face with an elbow to distract them and using your left hand throw their right arm well over your right shoulder whilst moving your right arm round the back of their head grasping your bicep on the left arm with your right hand. The left hand is applying pressure on the persons fore head. This should result in the attcker being strangled by their own right arm. You can then take the person to the floor controlling their head.

Don't know if I explained that right as its hard without images. Like I said it was just one of many we tried but I remember finding that one comfortable and effective.

But I bet with the wealth of knowledge on this forum there are some great moves for defending against a haymaker punch.

So please offer your favourite defence. If it is quite simply a perfectly valid straight punch to the attackers nose then please play the game and mention an alternative to complement your answer!

Cheers all and I am looking forward to your suggestions!


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## bostonbomber (Nov 4, 2008)

Nice thing about someone throwing a haymaker punch at you is that they are easy to see coming (since it moves in a wide arc, the fist must cover much more distance than a straight punch).  My preference is to step in with an elbow or step back, avoid the punch and kick to the leg.


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## kaizasosei (Nov 4, 2008)

nice.  so you go straight into the choke the arm and neck using the left hand to pull the head back...cool.

In past real fights. I usually would bob and weave and fortunately havent been hit since highschool by a flailing haymaker.  But i have to say, it always feels like i just barely managed to dodge and usually it's really uncomfortable because i couldn't really see exactly what was going on, i just sortof ducked and wove out of it sometimes mostly by feel alone.

j


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## myusername (Nov 4, 2008)

I like it. Most of the techniques we used in the session involved moving towards the attacker. At this stage in my martial development I think that If I were not expecting the attack, instinctively, I would probably move backwards and then hopefully correct myself if there is a second swing! 

There was a good point in another thread about haymakers and that was sometimes you don't see them coming if you are experiencing an adrenaline rush as one of the side effects is narrowing/tunnel vision.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 4, 2008)

This sounds like a job for Xingyiquan Paoquan (cannon fist) which will angle and step in as well as use the block with one arm to draw them in and then strike with the other fist

Or Taijiquan step back underhand grab the offending wrist and help it along its way and either let it go and give them a helpful push or hold on redirect and pull it back and use the other hand to put pressure on the elbow and slam them to the floor. 

EDIT

Sorry I should have added this to make it a bit more clear Paoquan


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## allenjp (Nov 4, 2008)

myusername said:


> using your left hand throw their right arm well over your right shoulder whilst moving your right arm round the back of their head grasping your bicep on the left arm with your right hand. The left hand is applying pressure on the persons fore head. This should result in the attcker being strangled by their own right arm. You can then take the person to the floor controlling their head.



This technique is called an arm triangle in BJJ. It is similar to the standard triangle choke (sankaku jime) in that it positions the opponent's own arm on one side of thier neck to strangle them, but of course it is performed with your arms instead of your legs. Since it is done with the arms it can be applied standing, as well as from the guard or from the mount. It is a great one but the timing has to be perfect in order to pull it off in response to a punch like you describe. 

If someone is throwing haymakers at me I have a pretty good idea that they are not a trained fighter, in which case I would probably immediately change levels when they are committed to the punch, and attack the legs. That way you can avoid the punch and get the takedown in one smooth movement. 

Or after switching levels I might go for a clinch from which I could execute a good clean throw. A good hard throw onto a hard surface has a good chance of ending the fight right there. (at least for the first attacker) Then you could get ready for the next guy if he's still dumb enought to come after you. 

Of course my decision to go for a throw would also be helped by the knowledge that if he (or she, we are not sexist here) is throwing slobberknockers, he is probably not trained to fight at all which makes my chances of executing a throw very good...


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## Nolerama (Nov 4, 2008)

I like the idea of a duck-under, and then taking the guy's back. If he's throwing a haymaker, I'm going to agree with allen: he's not an experienced fighter. Taking his back gives me a lot of safe options, especially if there's the possibility of fighting his buddies in the very near future. Break him down, sink a choke... maybe take advantage of a very open kidney area to use as a makeshift punching bag... proceed with a ballistic take down...embarrass the guy for throwing a haymaker... hit on his girlfriend... I don't know. But I would prefer to take back in that kind of situation.

It gives me a few moments longer to decide the level of response.

If it's an all-out brawl, I'd like to fortress-fight that blow with the facing arm, hand cupping the back of my head, step in and throw a clean uppercut to the chin/nose. Maybe enough blood will be spilled so when I jab out, the guy is demoralized from the hit.

The bottom line: haymakers are a godsend to a fighter. And the crazy thing is that lots of people, even UFC fan boys (the ones that don't train), throw punches like that. If a certain demographic of aggressors are out there that don't know how to throw a proper puch, I say keep them there.


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## Ahriman (Nov 4, 2008)

I like to move in to grab the attacker's head with both hands and pull his head into mine, preferably his face into my forehead _(I don't have problems with hitting his forehead with mine either - I have a circa 30*30mm area on my forehead where the bone is much thicker than elsewhere)_. Of course grabbing in this case doesn't mean simply extending my arms; it's a more circular or angular movement, which results in a strong forearm block, which results in a good amount of pain on the attacker's side.
I hope it was clear enough...


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## exile (Nov 4, 2008)

Standard TKD-type response: close the distance, deflect with advanced arm (you should have been in a 'fence' configuration as soon as you saw trouble brewing, eh?), and then:

(i) hard palm-heel to the middle of the face, or
(ii) slam other elbow into the attacker's face, followed by knife-hand strike to attacker's throat with the same hand, or
(iii) inverted knifehand strike to the attacker's throat with the other hand, or...

... you get the idea. The crucial point is _go in close_. Just make sure you've got your radar working so that you're ready to get those hands and arms out there in a 'placating' fence gesture that can turn in an instant into (i), (ii), (iii) or...

... and a hard knee strike to the groin or low side kick to break the assailant's knee joint is worth considering as a final reprimand... :EG:


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## Blindside (Nov 4, 2008)

Assuming a right punch, go straight inside, right (lead) arm forearm to the neck/brachial plexus and the left arm jams/blocks opponent's bicep, a little hop into a right knee to the groin.  Follow with another close range technique, probably an elbow.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Nov 4, 2008)

I always liked stepping into it with a double-block with the edges of my arms to stop it, then grabbing the arm and pulling them into a nice elbow to the temple followed with a knee to the groin.  My second favorite has to be stepping in and guiding the haymaker with a double-block, only to grab on and throw them with _tai otoshi_, followed by any number of stomp-kicks and jointlocks


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## hpulley (Nov 5, 2008)

My first reaction just because we trained for this Monday night would probably be a knife hand block, knife hand chop to the side of the neck, ridge hand to the back of the head with a spear hand to the throat, then a knee to the groin or head depending on whether or not he has crumpled yet.  But there are a lot of other choices.

Inside middle or shuto block to the haymaker then depending on how close you are: straight punch to the face, palm strike to the face, spear hand to the throat, knife hand chop to the neck followed by ridge hand to the back of the head with one hand and a spear hand to the throat with the other, punch or palm strike to solar plexis, knee or kick to groin followed by punch to head or solar plexis, grab back of head and elbow with the other hand followed by backfist to the head.  Or you can catch the arm, grab his collar and throw him with osoto gari.

As someone said above, the key is to react fast enough to block the haymaker or if there is enough room, to back up out of the way and kick from a distance which is yet another choice.  Don't think about it too much or he'll have hit you already and in the right spot anyone could go down from a heavy man's haymaker.

The double handed windmill is the other good drunkard tactic which is essentially just haymakers thrown in succession.  Blocking one and hitting him hard will probably stop it or a good kick up the middle.


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## morph4me (Nov 5, 2008)

I can't say it's my favorite, but it's the one I find myself using most when I train. Stepping and pivotin inside the punch, parrying the arm down while pushing his head onto his shoulder, which is moving toward the ground, and seeing how deep I can plant him.


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## trainable (Nov 5, 2008)

I am a PDR and Kenpo practitioner, and I would use Coach Blauer's SPEAR Tactic.  If you havent seen it, you can check out Coach here : http://media.crossfit.com/cf-video/CrossFitBlauer_SpearIsBridge.wmv

I dont train for technique anymore, because trying to select a technique to match a particular attack takes time.  Watch in the dojo the next time a normally right handed attacker switches to a left unannounced.  See how much clean technique he uses in defending himself, if he can at all.  Not all fights will give you the opportunity to get into a stance, select the foot or hand you will respond with, or fire your favorite technique.  Musashi said that you must make your fighting stance your everyday stance, and make your everyday stance your fighting stance.  Self defense is just that, you have to fight from the position you are in.  The badguy controls the energy.  

If you are talking about squaring off and jawjacking yourself into a fight, move this thread to MMA or "fighting" because the minute you are a consentual participant to beginning a fight (read, adopting a fighting stance and raising your fists), you are consenting and therefore guilty of mutual combat according to most courts.  Train smart, you cant always do your best move.  Coach Blauer is always quoting strategy, and the one I like best is "The height of strategy is not in doing your best move, but the worst move for your attacker".  I cant remember who's words they are, but they ring true.  Most of the street issues I have had were not so telegraphed.  That includes the haymaker from a second attacker.


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## allenjp (Nov 5, 2008)

Like the video, it's not a technique that no one's seen before, but it would seem to be effective.

Theoretically I agree with your statement that you should not be assuming a fighting stance and "jawjacking" with the guy. That is, if by "jawjacking" you mean to say exchanging threats and insults, and generally escalating things to a fight. 

But the truth is that there are situations in which someone may actually throw a punch at you after talking about it for a while, and it's not always practical to escape the situation. You have to stand your ground. Otherwise, what....? Are you going to turn and run away any time someone starts talking or posturing aggressively? That's not practical. 

I think that the correct response is to try to de-escalate the situation by using a low, calm voice, and saying you don't want to fight etc...but if you are ever going to face a potentially violent situation you have to be ready to fight if it comes down to it despite your best efforts. 

I agree that one should be assuming a natural stance until the first blow is actually thrown. But many of the techniques described here can be performed easily enough from a natural standing position, provided the person is ready to do so.

And you're right. when the sh** actually hits the fan, it's sometimes hard to think about which foot is going where, where your hand is being placed, etc...but isn't that what all that drilling and excersizes we all do in class all about? To kind of make the movements into muscle memory so you don't have to do a lot of thinking when the time really comes? And let's remember the specific type of attack we are talking about here is a wide arcing punch that is probably thrown by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. That most likely means you'll have a lot more time to think about your move, not only while he's actually throwing the punch, but also while he's doing all his "jawjacking".


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## trainable (Nov 5, 2008)

Do you train off balance?  Do you train to throw your blows from a non violent posture?  Do you train verbal attacks (real ones, not the typical F U), do you go out into the environment and train in between cars?  

Im not suggesting that the training you do doesnt work, or wont work, but what you train is what you will do.  Fights dont all happen standing facing one another, or even from the person you are arguing with.  All I suggest is consider the context in which you train, because Muscle memory is actually mental memory.  If you fire the neurons enough, you build the path.  The more paths you program, the more tools you have.  Off balance, in the dark, on slick surfaces, against multiple attackers.  Telegraphing your ability by adopting a fighting stance weakens your possible strategies, so yes, once the first blow has been thrown, get to what you do best, and drive through the opponent.

We are on the same team here, the title of the thread was "Your" favorite defense.  Not "The Best for You".  Opinions are never lacking here in the MA community.  That is just mine based on the many events I have been in and around in the community I work in.  Go with what works for you.


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## morph4me (Nov 5, 2008)

Great discussion for another thread, but can we keep this one on track please.


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## allenjp (Nov 5, 2008)

I agree. That was my point precisely. The title of this thread is favorite defense AGAINST A HAYMAKER. That is a specific situation. I agree with many of your points on how to train, but that's not the point in this discussion.


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## zDom (Nov 5, 2008)

The last three times a haymaker came in:

On two I threw a straight punch (reverse hand) as they were still pulling the arm backward for the haymaker. Stopped them so I didn't even need a block.

The third I got smoked in the head because I got sucker punched by a guy off to the side while I was discussing something with his friend in front of me.


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## myusername (Nov 5, 2008)

Thank you for all your answers so far people. There are some beautiful moves on this thread already. I've been training this evening (I'm from the UK so remember the time difference). We were drilling some more counters today.

My two favourites from tonights session was a double knife hand block (smashing into the wrist and the bicep) to the attackers left haymaker. Using your left, knife hand strike to the carotid artery/throat and then with your right follow through with a palm heel strike to the temple. Kicking out the knee or kick to the groin for a finish.

If receiving a haymaker from the attckers right hand. Use a telephone block (Moving your left hand up to cover head nice and tight as if you are quickily answering a telephone!). From there wrap your left arm over the top of the attacking arm, above the elbow and under the arm pit and up taking them to tippy toes. Using your right hand turn into an arc hand strike/ grab to the throat. Outer Hock throw (hooking your right leg behind the attckers right leg tripping backwards) to the ground holding on to the attcking arm as they fall. Pull them up by the arm so they roll properly on to their side. Pin the head to the floor with your left knee and kneel on their ribs with your right. Use a good figure four wrist lock whilst shouting to any body tempted to wade in that if they come any closer you will snap the persons arm!

Hope the above made sense. Like I said before its hard without images.

In answer to one of the previous posts, in our classes we always fight from the "fence position" with our hands up but palms out in a placating gesture. We do use verbal interaction and shouting sometimes but not all of the times.

Loving every ones contributions and learning a lot.


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## Imminent (Nov 5, 2008)

Drive in and break something


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## Imminent (Nov 5, 2008)

no disrespect, but on the street for real, if you told me you were going to break his arm if I came in I would tell you to make it a great break and then I'd stomp on your throat/cervical spine/skull multiple times while you did it


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## exile (Nov 5, 2008)

Imminent said:


> no disrespect, but on the street for real, if you told me you were going to break his arm if I came in I would tell you to make it a great break and then I'd stomp on your throat/cervical spine/skull multiple times while you did it



Ummm.... it take almost no time at all to break a joint when a pin or lock has been established with appropriate leverage. A single hard movement of the arm taking less than a second will rupture the joint possibly permanently. What leads you to believe you'd be able to do what you describe in the fraction of a second that the joint break would take? Do you think that you're faster enough than Myusername that you could do all that in the second it would take him to carry out the break he described? _Why_ would you, or more generally, the assailant's hypothetical backup, think that? 

Personally, I'd say it Myusrn's plan is probably the best the defender could do, under the circumstances.


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## championmarius (Nov 6, 2008)

Well, I mean if he's gonna gift wrap it for me, then I guess all I can do is reciprocate by sending him for a little flight... ala Morph4me style.

Or give 'em a good pop in the ol' gob to remind that an object traveling along a straight line is much faster... kinda simplistic, but hey. why complicate things. Oh, if yer gonna get all fussy, raise the shoulder and duck yer noodle... let the slobberknocker glance off ya.

Or if you are a real sadistic monster, you can slip the offending meat-sicle sledgehammer and catch it on the other side, slide in, pop the elbow, sweep the whole kit down with the left paw, drive straight in with a chin jab with the right hand, elephant hook to catch the neck, or a right palm strike to the groin, take the inevitable knee shot that opens up either to the groin or the lead knee, and finish off with a pair of hammerfists to the back of the neck/head, Left then Right. (I would think though, that maybe the second hammer might become a straight, it has a little longer range, just in case they crumple faster than anticipated...)


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## myusername (Nov 6, 2008)

Imminent said:


> no disrespect, but on the street for real, if you told me you were going to break his arm if I came in I would tell you to make it a great break and then I'd stomp on your throat/cervical spine/skull multiple times while you did it



Ouch! lol 

Seriously though, thats a lose-lose-lose situation! The attacker gets his arm broken! I get my whole body broken! and surely any friendship you have with the attacker must be broken as soon as they realise that you esculated a control and restraint to a full joint break and possibly embroiled them in a manslaughter charge!


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## Imminent (Nov 24, 2008)

the whole point wasn't that he couldn't break the guys arm but the fact that in a street fight/asocial event casualties are the rule not the exception and so I don't care if you break his arm but rather that while you do it I am going to end you  For me to worry about someone getting hurt is non-sequitor, of course someone is going to get hurt, my only job is to make it anyone but me


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## Imminent (Nov 24, 2008)

myusername said:


> Ouch! lol
> 
> Seriously though, thats a lose-lose-lose situation! The attacker gets his arm broken! I get my whole body broken! and surely any friendship you have with the attacker must be broken as soon as they realise that you esculated a control and restraint to a full joint break and possibly embroiled them in a manslaughter charge!


 
Exactly how do I get to be friends with someone who is attacking me?  My assumption was this was a real world fight not a sporting event, so if I have to assume asocial intentions while the guy on the gorund gets a broken arm that is all that happens to him and the other guy can't then break his neck or anything else.  Asocial violence is always lose-lose, but it is better to survive whole than to look down from above, having been dispatched....


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## exile (Nov 24, 2008)

Imminent said:


> the whole point wasn't that he couldn't break the guys arm but the fact that in a street fight/asocial event casualties are the rule not the exception and *so I don't care if you break his arm but rather that while you do it I am going to end you * For me to worry about someone getting hurt is non-sequitor, of course someone is going to get hurt, my only job is to make it anyone but me



You are _not_ going to end him (_note: for purposes of this exercise, 'you' is an untrained but dangerously violent street attacker&#8212;that kind that reality-based approaches to MA applications correctly assume to be the one you're going to be defending against in an unprovoked attack on you_). At least, don't count on it&#8212;not if he knows what he's doing, and there are plenty of MAists who know exactly what they're doing.

As I said, he can break your friend's arm quickly enough that there's no 'while'. The right leverage and the right force, and your friend's joint is going to be ruptured long before you can close the distance. And he can then throw your friend into you, once his friend's arm is broken and he's in a world of pain and in no position to resist. 

Of course he has to keep a least part of an eye on you&#8212;that's what peripheral vision is for. But don't assume that he's going to be slow enough to let you do anything. Big mistake. 

Making claims about what one can do in a hypothetical fight is easy, but as they say, talk is cheap. Let's just agree that no one knows exactly what will happen in a street fight. But if your friend is in a hold that can turn into a damaged joint with a sharp application of pressure, and you're even a few steps away, I think it's a serious mistake to assume you can control the outcome in any way.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 24, 2008)

myusername said:


> So please offer your favourite defence. If it is quite simply a perfectly valid straight punch to the attackers nose then please play the game and mention an alternative to complement your answer!
> 
> Cheers all and I am looking forward to your suggestions!



We shuffle-step in towards the punch arm and block hard, open-handed. the idea is stop the strike before accelerates. Trick: Block the forearm, not the elbow or higher, as the can collapse and still get. From there, lean in with roundhouse to bell. He should be doubled over and you can close with a backfist/ reverse punch combo to the head.


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## Imminent (Nov 24, 2008)

exile said:


> "You are _not_ going to end him. At least, don't count on itnot if he knows what he's doing, and there are plenty of MAists who know exactly what they're doing."
> 
> With respect, here are my assumptions, we are in the land of if's so assuming I am close enough to act, and they are on the ground, he is going to be involved with the body he is breaking and will have to disengage, I will break or strike to cause an induction at whatever target is available, while he is reactive he is open for more trauma, and_ if_ that permits a stomp to his throat he is finished - anatomical fact that crushed trachea results in asphixiation without a trach tube.
> 
> ...


 
If you can't control the fight, then you see it as a sporting event or competition.  If you mean can't control what happens to my friend, then you're right.  But again, I am starting out assuming he is giong to get broken, I just want to make sure it is only one break and not his arm then his neck - whatever it is it is beyond my control and not part fo my thinking past giving me a chance to engage someone with open attack vectors for me to get at.  If it is about controlling a fight, then we disagree.  Every fight has elements that are random, the difference is whether you are competing or surviving.  Each body has neurologically hard wired reponses or spinal induction reactions that have predetermined reponses that are unconscious.  Think of touching a hot plate and your hand snaps back before you feel pain, its an unconscious defense of the body.  If you trigger this in a person their intent, skill, size etc become moot.  This is not imaginary its a physiological constant barring neurological impairment from previous trauma or physical irregularity, so you can in fact control the responses and govern things.  I am not trying to offer braggarding examples, simply saying too many see street events as competitions when the reality is they can be asocial in a heartbeat and then competition gets you hurt.  I don't want this construed as a challenge or posturing by anyone, that is not my intent.  It is simply to point out the difference in mindset.  My goal is not to beat someone but to render them inoperable, fully broken structurally so I can go home to my wife and kids.  I have the feeling we will agree to disagree on this so whatever your take I only offer the input from my experiences for your consideration.


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## PepperSprayKing (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you for sharing useful information.A deliberate hard shot meant to knock out the opponent. This phrase goes back to farming when you would swing a sickle in a deliberate motion to cut the grass to make hay out of.


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## BrandonLucas (Nov 25, 2008)

Imminent said:


> If you can't control the fight, then you see it as a sporting event or competition. If you mean can't control what happens to my friend, then you're right. But again, I am starting out assuming he is giong to get broken, I just want to make sure it is only one break and not his arm then his neck - whatever it is it is beyond my control and not part fo my thinking past giving me a chance to engage someone with open attack vectors for me to get at. If it is about controlling a fight, then we disagree. Every fight has elements that are random, the difference is whether you are competing or surviving. Each body has neurologically hard wired reponses or spinal induction reactions that have predetermined reponses that are unconscious. Think of touching a hot plate and your hand snaps back before you feel pain, its an unconscious defense of the body. If you trigger this in a person their intent, skill, size etc become moot. This is not imaginary its a physiological constant barring neurological impairment from previous trauma or physical irregularity, so you can in fact control the responses and govern things. I am not trying to offer braggarding examples, simply saying too many see street events as competitions when the reality is they can be asocial in a heartbeat and then competition gets you hurt. I don't want this construed as a challenge or posturing by anyone, that is not my intent. It is simply to point out the difference in mindset. My goal is not to beat someone but to render them inoperable, fully broken structurally so I can go home to my wife and kids. I have the feeling we will agree to disagree on this so whatever your take I only offer the input from my experiences for your consideration.


 
I agree to an extent with what you're saying...And I think the confusion here, if I'm correct, is that you're taking the stance of one of the attacker's buddies that is there witnessing the fight.  If I'm wrong, correct me.

I can absolutely agree with the "It's him or me" attitude in a fight...there really isn't any room for second guessing.  And it's true that if you're looking at the possiblity of multiple attackers, then you're probably going to use more force than you would just facing someone in a 1 on 1 situation.

But, I still think you shouldn't use excessive force when dealing with any attacker, unless it's a life-threatening situation.  

I think, and again, I could be wrong, that the haymaker defense is applied here in a social scene, like a bar fight.  You may very well have more then one attacker in these situations, but the fight isn't going to be a life or death fight, 9 times out of 10.  But, to be fair, each situation is different, and should be looked at before reacting appropriately.  Why crush the guy's throat when simply breaking his nose will have the desired effect, and would require the same opening and almost the same technique, but would be far less life-threatening?

In any case, back to the OP, for a haymaker defense, assuming for argument's sake that this is a 1 on 1 situation, I'm just going to block, parry, and dodge.  If the guy is dumb enough to throw a big, looping punch at me, it would hurt his pride more to embarass him in front of his friends by not allowing his attack to have any effect on me.  Not to mention, if I haven't struck him, then he doesn't have a case against me...now, all this is assuming that I've done all the talking that I can to get out of the situation to begin with.


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## KempoGuy06 (Nov 25, 2008)

i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw. 

very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ 

B


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## exile (Nov 25, 2008)

Imminent said:


> My goal is not to beat someone but to render them inoperable, fully broken structurally so I can go home to my wife and kids.  I have the feeling we will agree to disagree on this so whatever your take I only offer the input from my experiences for your consideration.



I happen to agree with you on this point. If you check out my profile, you'll see that my interest in the MAs is entirely in practical street combat applications, and always has been&#8212;I've no interest in sport competition at all.

But I'm also assuming that the defender, at least, is on his feet. Probably that is the factor that's leading us to different calculations about the outcome. I'm not starting from the assumption that things are going to the ground; the whole strategic plan of the karate-based TMAs is that you do whatever you have to to _stay_ off the ground. In my scenario, your friend is between the defender and you. If the defender is quick and on his feet, I think it's likely that he'll be ready for you as you come in, and your friend will by that point be in no condition to do very much.

I'm hesitant to make _any_ strong claims about what will happen with multiple attack situations, though... but I think there are plenty of uncertainties in such cases, and a shrewd and well-trained defender will not necessarily be a piece of cake.

An adequate defense against a haymaker should be one of the easier things for a trained MAist to do. By stepping in close, you take both the punch and the possible opposite fist followup out of play for a very short but critical period of time, and your 'fence' defensive posture gives you not just a barrier to his attack but sets you up for a very fast head shot&#8212;a palm heel strike impacting the base of the nose or an open-hand clawing attack to the eyes. I agree with Imminent about the value of using predictable wired-in responses to impacts and leverage; with both of these large-muscle, tactically simple and adrenal-dump-proof moves, the would-be attacker will be out of it _fast_, and you can make your own quickest exit from the scene. Take a look at the thread on lapel grabs that Celtic Crippler started, about how the simple 'Mace of Aggression' worked in the situation he describes&#8212;and bear in mind, that was a case where the attacker had buddies present. But the tech was so effective so quickly that it basically took the wind out of their sails... the mob mentality breaks down quickly, I think, when your lead loudmouth gets taken out virtually the moment he goes in. It's not a universal rule, but it probably does keep things more or less... _rational_... a good deal of the time.


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## bigfootsquatch (Nov 25, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw.
> 
> very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
> 
> B



Do you guys use the "comb the hair" block where you essentially lift the lead arm in an angle with the hand behind the head, or do you use the two arm lead in, where the right haymaker is met with the left hand straight to the arm? Sorry for the bad description!


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## KempoGuy06 (Nov 25, 2008)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Do you guys use the "comb the hair" block where you essentially lift the lead arm in an angle with the hand behind the head, or do you use the two arm lead in, where the right haymaker is met with the left hand straight to the arm? Sorry for the bad description!


the "comb the hair" block, then "snake" wrap the arm and grab the tricep

B


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## myusername (Nov 25, 2008)

Imminent said:


> Exactly how do I get to be friends with someone who is attacking me?  My assumption was this was a real world fight not a sporting event, so if I have to assume asocial intentions while the guy on the gorund gets a broken arm that is all that happens to him and the other guy can't then break his neck or anything else.  Asocial violence is always lose-lose, but it is better to survive whole than to look down from above, having been dispatched....



I think we have gotten a little confused here. In the original post the hypothetical situation makes clear that the attacker is the person who threw the Haymaker. And in one of the possible defences from this attack the defender (whom I wrongly assumed responders to the post would identify with and as such reply from this perspective) locks on an arm lock and warns the attacker's friends that if any one attempts to hurt him or her the attackers arm will be broken. When you replied that in this situation you would step on my (the person defending against the Haymaker) throat/spine etc multiple times you were replying in the role of the attackers friend. When replying to your post I was not suggesting that you were friends with someone attacking you but instead discussing the consequences of your suggested actions in the role of the attackers friend.

Now I understand that the warning to break the arm may not have the impact I would like and the attackers friend or friends may still decide to step in. That is why in that situation I have to be prepared to break the original attackers arm and as a consquence remove that person from the fight so I can concentrate on the new threat of the attckers friend. When talking about controlling a fight I am not talking about competiton or sport I am talking about an attempt at controlling the esculation and risk of the situation. If my attempts at controlling the situation are not effective then I obviously need to move up a gear and break the joint and concentrate my efforts on the attackers buddy without any further wasted efforts of mercy. I am assuming ample time to do this as in the hypothetical response the attckers friend is too busy quipping "you had better make it a good break!"


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 26, 2008)

Haymaker Defence

Doing Taiji last night I realized it was rather simple

Golden rooster stands on one leg > step in block knee to groin.

Now why "Haymaker Defence" popped into my brain while doing taiji I have no idea


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## allenjp (Nov 26, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw.
> 
> very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
> 
> B


I believe you are referring to a Ippon Seoi Nage.

Yes, this one is very good also, and if you keep your grip on the arm once the opponent is on the ground you have a couple of different ready made armbars available, or you can jump right into a full mount and pummel away...

Of course like a said in my previous post, with a good clean throw onto a hard floor it's not likely they'll want to continue to fight anyway.


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## KempoGuy06 (Nov 26, 2008)

allenjp said:


> I believe you are referring to a Ippon Seoi Nage.
> 
> Yes, this one is very good also, and if you keep your grip on the arm once the opponent is on the ground you have a couple of different ready made armbars available, or you can jump right into a full mount and pummel away...
> 
> Of course like a said in my previous post, with a good clean throw onto a hard floor it's not likely they'll want to continue to fight anyway.


yes you do have those options. 

and again correct, with very little force behind the throw you can drop the guy hard to the ground where he may not want to get up

B


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## gilgsn (Dec 5, 2008)

Here's my favorite: The haymaker comes, you step slightly backwards, as your opposite arm comes up in a circle for the inside of your elbow to meet the inside of his. You continue the circle with your arm, redirecting his arm down as you step behind him. If you're close enough, you can easily grab his throat with your hand from your same arm. Now you're totally behind him, he's on his knees with his arm is painfully locked. You're still holding your glass from your other hand ;-)

Gil.


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## Guardian (Dec 7, 2008)

A lot of good responses.

Best way for me was to simply to step in block and elbow the individual to the face and move out alert for friends (usually not alone) or step in block and take the knee out immediately and move out, can't walk, can't fight effectively.

I believe in the KISS methods.


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## ME1 (Dec 22, 2008)

In the past, if I see the fight escalating, I am usually ready for the haymaker. Most of the time I tend to surge forward if I am ready with one hand raised to block the haymaker as far back as possible and the other giving the "lunch punch" just below brest bone. that punch usually hits hard because my body is moving forward behind it. I guess I just lack the fancy stuff?


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## zDom (Dec 22, 2008)

ME1 said:


> I guess I just lack the fancy stuff?



Simple stuff is very often the best choice.


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## Em MacIntosh (Dec 29, 2008)

I like a stop hit to the upper lip with a slip in the same motion to avoid or roll with the punch, followed up by whatever technique(s) my reflexes go with based on the effect it has on the agressor.


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## scarphe (Dec 30, 2008)

having never beeen in the said situation my defence would be based upon my training. 
Block 
grap 
then break

the finall step could change as depending on the attacker it might be easier to put him out of the fight in another way, proabaly eyes or throat.
but in a pub i think one has three factor two consider the attacker´s friends and the possibility of weapons, and alchohol. though the group with whom the attacker came with may carry weapons in a pub weapons are easy to find or make  and with alchohol in the mix the judgement is off so one just might use one.


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## Hand Sword (Dec 31, 2008)

I prefer to take it and dish it back--blow for blow! Just to show that I'm more man than him! :mutaliger


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## tellner (Dec 31, 2008)

The last two times that happened to me I kept it simple:

Jab. Cross. Uppercut.
Caught him on the preparation and came in with a let vertical elbow to the hollow of the shoulder. The arm didn't work so well after that. He was easy to take down.


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## HG1 (Dec 31, 2008)

myusername said:


> **EDIT**Hello everyone. Last week in my Jujutsu class we were looking at defending yourself from someone swinging haymaker punches at your head. As I'm sure most will probably know the haymaker is the common swinging punch thrown from the pub brawler. It's not quite a hook but more of a flailing arm with a fist at the end! Don't know how else to describe it really....
> 
> So please offer your favourite defence. If it is quite simply a perfectly valid straight punch to the attackers nose then please play the game and mention an alternative to complement your answer!
> 
> Cheers all and I am looking forward to your suggestions!


Long range- Seeing it from a mile away I'd use a front kick.  

Mid range- Step in deep on a slight inwards angle using a hard bridge to contact the attacking arm anywhere from the elbow to shoulder joint.  Then use a straight punch aimed at whatever is open.  

Close range-  Jam the wind up then elbow/knee.


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## allenjp (Dec 31, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> i like the one i learned in my BJJ class. Step in and block the punch while grabbing the tricep and coming in close to the attackers body forming a T with their body and yours. Next while still holding the arm step to the inside of the attacker, pushing your hips out and rotating you upper body on a 45 degree performing a hip throw.
> 
> very nice and very effective. my friend decided to be funny and throw a haymaker at me one time just to see what i would do and did this little move. he has since never done that again and is now looking into taking BJJ
> 
> B


 
That would be Ippon Seoi Nague, you could also learn this in Kodokan Judo...that's where it came from.


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## LawDog (Jan 2, 2009)

An "in close" chamber block followed by a short range elbow strike from your other arm.
:ultracool


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## CDKJudoka (Jan 2, 2009)

If I wanted to hurt the guy, close in, block the offending limb and lock it with my left arm, wrap the other arm in a reverse headlock, and them make him eat pavement or floor. If I wanted to subdue him, block and grab the arm and a seionage or harai ogoshi into an arm bar. Since he is throwing a haymaker, should make it much easier for either throw. 

What we learned in TKD, knife hand block, step in and elbow strike, followed by a knee. Or replace the elbow strike with either and uppercut or a rising elbow strike.


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## northern tiger (Jan 7, 2009)

This happened to me over new years for the first time (and hopefully last time) in my life. I just swayed back to dodge the punch and then hit him with a right roundhouse kick (hitting with the toe of my shoe) to his side. 

It ended the fight but thinking about the incident now it probably wasn't the best response and I know I backed away because I really didn't want to end up in a scrap. If I got to chose the way I would have responded I would have probably steped in instead of back. But theory and practice are very different. I should have also delivered a groin kick or front kick even though I have wicked roundhouses from my sanshou training.


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