# Do you believe Martial Arts should be taught in the public school system?



## SavageMan (Feb 5, 2012)

This is a discussion I had on my way to training the other night with my twelve year old daughter and her friend. They were going to sit in on grappling night & watch the old man try to hold his own. They had both seen the new Karate Kid movie and had said just how cool it would be if American schools had martial arts instead of gym class like China, Japan, and Korea. This is really a question for the Western countries given that many of the Asian countries require a martial art as part of their daily schedule. So for all those European friends, Aussies, Canadian buddies and Yanks out there let me know what you think. If you do think it should be in the schools which one, or how many, and why that one. And for anyone out there who has taken a martial art as part of their school curriculum please tell us how it went.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 5, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> If you do think it should be in the schools which one, or how many, and why that one. And for anyone out there who has taken a martial art as part of their school curriculum please tell us how it went.



I suspect it would have benefits, but I sincerely doubt it would happen in public schools in the USA.  Those days are long gone.

When I was a lad, there was a 22 caliber rifle range in the basement of my grade school, where marksmanship was taught.  It was no longer used, and that was in the 1960s.  I don't know when it had been last used; the school was built in the early 1900s.

We have gotten to the point where competitive sports are no longer seen as acceptable for in-school physical education (not talking about extracurricular activities such as organized sports).  Martial arts training inherently teaches ways to not just defend oneself, but to inflict pain and perhaps injury on others.  It would only take one bully applying what he had been taught on a smaller child, and that would be the end of that.  Likewise, martial arts training often involves routine injuries; parents in general are intolerant of their child being injured in any way shape or form.

Frankly, we've become a nation of wussies.  We do not want our children exposed to competition, being told they are not winners, or risk of injury of any sort.  We're a pack of crybaby anti-competitive navel-gazers, destroying our children with nonsensical arguments like 'everybody is a winner' and 'competition is bad' and 'self-defense is not allowed, call the police instead'.  We've lost our spirit and lost our way.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2012)

Martial arts are already taught in public schools: boxing, wrestling, archery  and fencing.

I don't see it becoming widespread, but I don't see it being anything but beneficial.

One of the Bujinkan guys in Albuquerque has an extra-curricular program in the public schools that's pretty successful.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2012)

Here our public schools are the top fee payiing schools like Eton College,Harrow, Winchester, Marlborough etc, there martial arts are available along with many other sports. In the state schools, there isn't the time nor the money. The public schools are very wealthy and are boarding so have advantages ordinary state and fee paying schools don't have.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 5, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Martial arts are already taught in public schools: boxing, wrestling, archery  and fencing.
> 
> I don't see it becoming widespread, but I don't see it being anything but beneficial.
> 
> One of the Bujinkan guys in Albuquerque has an extra-curricular program in the public schools that's pretty successful.



Those are all extracurricular, are they not?  I don't see them in any current physical education programs during class time.


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2012)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> Here our public schools are the top fee payiing schools like Eton College,Harrow, Winchester, Marlborough etc, there martial arts are available along with many other sports. In the state schools, there isn't the time nor the money. The public schools are very wealthy and are boarding so have advantages ordinary state and fee paying schools don't have.



Here, the "top fee paying schools," are called "private schools," or, in the case of boarding institutions like the one I attended, "prep schools." The "ordinary state" schools are called "public schools." All of them generally have athletic programs, in some cases quite good-and usually have wrestling. Wrestling, archery and fencing were all modules taught in the physical education programs I had in _pubic_  middle school (6,7,&8th grade), and were part of the Los Alamos schools when my kids attended from 1994-2004.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 5, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Here our public schools are the top fee payiing schools like Eton College,Harrow, Winchester, Marlborough etc, there martial arts are available along with many other sports. In the state schools, there isn't the time nor the money. The public schools are very wealthy and are boarding so have advantages ordinary state and fee paying schools don't have.



I always find it amusing; in the USA, a 'public' school is one which is provided by tax dollars.  A 'private' school is one which parents pay for, traditionally religious, but also military or with specific emphasis on certain subjects or college preparatory.  I believe it is the opposite in the UK, isn't it?  Funny!


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## Jenna (Feb 5, 2012)

Can anyone comment specifically on what the benefits are in those Asian countries that _have _long-standing implementions of MA in their school curricula?


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## Gnarlie (Feb 5, 2012)

I know several people in the UK who teach TKD and other MA within the school system.  It's been very hard for them to get into, but it's been very successful too.  I think martial arts aren't for everyone and incorporation into the school system, though it may feed the growth of a martial art, isn't necessarily healthy for the standard of the art.  

When I look at what health and safety regs have done to martial arts over the last 10 years (our UK Dojang now has to have a COSHH Policy, for example), I dread to think what concessions would have to be made in order to get onto school syllabi.  Goodbye vital techniques, goodbye pre-emptive striking, goodbye partner exercises, goodbye contact, hello endless padwork and patterns with no real context aaarg.

School martial arts are allegedly part of the historical reason why I see people on this forum arguing whether a block is really a block, or it might be something else.  We can do without further 'dumbing down', thanks, things are complicated enough already!

Also, looking at Mr. Mattocks thoughts on bullying from another perspective: a little secret martial arts knowledge is what gives the skinny, underdeveloped kids a chance to defend themselves against the bullies.  If everyone has that knowledge, then the skinny kid's advantage is lost.

Plus you get less scrupulous MA instructors using school classes as feeders to their own commercial clubs.  This already happens in the UK.


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## Gnarlie (Feb 5, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Wrestling, archery and fencing were all modules taught in the physical education programs I had in _pubic_  middle school (6,7,&8th grade), and were part of the Los Alamos schools when my kids attended from 1994-2004.


_
Pubic_ middle school?! Sounds interesting. :mrtoilet:


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 5, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> Also, looking at Mr. Mattocks thoughts on bullying from another perspective: a little secret martial arts knowledge is what gives the skinny, underdeveloped kids a chance to defend themselves against the bullies.  If everyone has that knowledge, then the skinny kid's advantage is lost.



Interesting point.  In any case, I remember school-yard fist-fights well.  Some black eyes given and received; a few bruises; once I punched a kid so many times in the head that I could not close my hand around a pencil for a week (I was the one being bullied; I fought back).  Imagine if I had known how to punch correctly.  Imagine if all of us did.  Yikes.


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## SavageMan (Feb 5, 2012)

From what I've been told by my instructor who spent some time in South Korea and a coworker who lived in Japan for a few years it is highly disciplined. Something we have lost in our American schools. Instructors demand respect for themselves, teachers and peers. Our society has to many excuses for that to happen. I would like to see some of political correctness gone and commen sense back. Just getting kids to excersise would be nice. Some physical fitness that envoles something besides dodge ball and a yearly Presidents fitness test. Although the idea of giving any bully an advantage is a sickning thought for me. I went to 11 differnt elementry schools growing up and the new kid is always the first target. MA would have been a blessing. But if the bullies would have had it I doubt I would have made such a good looking senior picture.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 5, 2012)

Interesting synchronicity; this was just published:

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20120205/NEWS01/202050315



> Schoenfeld founded a karate club at the school eight years ago as a way of combating bullying and teaching students to be more sure of themselves and confident in their abilities. The club is open to all students, but Schoenfeld believes that it holds extra purpose for the students in her classroom.
> 
> "I encourage all of (my students) to be involved in the club," said Schoenfeld. "Then I have them become leaders and assistants so they can, in the following sessions, show that they can be a leader, too."


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## Virtual Jim (Feb 5, 2012)

I've always excelled at martial arts, but can't throw a football to save my life.  Not being able to throw said football has serious social implications for children.   One of the benefits of going to a Catholic high school in America was that one elective for physical education was Taekwondo.  Now, it was only a month-long episode, but for that short time, for once I was the alpha male and the "jocks" were the uncoordinated dorks.  (No, I didn't hold it over them like they held it over me.)   While I don't see, pragmatically, how the arts outside of greco-roman wrestling could be taught in schools due to legal reasons, it would be nice for all those like myself from a social hierarchy, and, more importantly, self-confidence point of view.


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## chinto (Feb 5, 2012)

I would love to see Martial arts required for all schools in the USA. I do not mean so much sport martial arts like Olympic tkd, but arts that are designed and taught for self defense.  I would want to see the more serious techniques that are likely to result in death taught at high school level.  ( yes I can hear the liberal idiots who are in the "no violence ever!! " crowd screaming already at the thought of any kind of contact sport let alone martial arts of any kind )   But, in this day and age it is a matter of personal and national security to have our people able to defend themselves.  
Oh and I would bring back marksmanship programs and teams as well! both Pistol and Rifle, small and large bore.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 5, 2012)

Absolutely NOT. The number of People who would learn it to misuse it would be extremely detrimental.
Besides - Nothings stopping them from just going to a Normal MA Outlet.


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## WCman1976 (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't see public schools ever getting martial arts classes like kung fu or karate. Hell, my high school didn't even have a wrestling team...yet they could afford to put TVs in the cafeteria. It'd be cool if they had some kind of class, or club, or martial arts teacher on retainer or something like that who taught a martial art ONLY to bullied kids and not the bullies. Then again, a lot of bullies might not take the class anyway. (I remember all the "tough guys" in my high school watching me spar with some of my friends. When we were done, they proceeded to say that the techniques we did were "all bullsh*t.") We may never know because, although there are a LOT of martial arts schools in the Us, I don't see it gaining enough mainstream acceptance to be included that way.


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## David43515 (Feb 5, 2012)

I can`t speak for any other Asian countries, but I`ve spent the last 6 years teaching English in Japanese public schools. While there are schools that have different martial arts as extracuricular activities ( I know schools that have karate, kendo, judo, shoriji kenpo,naginatado,AND boxing programs), the only ma offered as part of the phys ed classes are a manditory 8 hours a year of judo. Most of our PE classes are basketball, tumbling,soccer,voleyball, etc. To become a PE teacher I think you have to hold a shodan rank in judo, but most just stick with it long enough to get the job. The judo coaches in our school district are all science, history, and elementary teachers.

The exception would be my brother in law who only taught judo (and coached sumo) at a local university.


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## Tez3 (Feb 5, 2012)

The fee paying schools here are called public schools because they are open to anyone who can afford their fees. Only the very top schools are called public schools though, lesser ones are just private or fee paying schools. You need to be very very wealthy to be able to afford public schools especially Eton and Harrow, you have to put your son's name down at moment of birth for them. Still they provide a majority of the world with it's leaders, movers and shakers so it would be worth it.
Martial arts at Eton http://www.etoncollege.com/MartialArts.aspx  the fact they include Capoiera in the curriculum of the top boys school in the world may interest some lol!


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2012)

Tez said:
			
		

> Martial arts at Eton http://www.etoncollege.com/MartialArts.aspx  the fact they include Capoiera in the curriculum of the top boys school in the world may interest some lol!



Top boys school in Great Britain, y'mean, dontcha? :lol:


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## Steve (Feb 5, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Absolutely NOT. The number of People who would learn it to misuse it would be extremely detrimental.
> Besides - Nothings stopping them from just going to a Normal MA Outlet.



Hahaha....  Because public school karate would be more dangerous than the wrestling, boxing, judo and marksman clubs/teams that already exist.   Let's be real.  


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## clfsean (Feb 6, 2012)

One of my students is a teacher in a local school system & teaches an after school "martial arts club" at the direction of the school principal. Aside from my training, he's a 2nd degree in TKD & an instructor at his teacher's school. The program is for "at risk youths" that in addition to this club, they have a regular study hall period & other classes to help focus these kids attention away from the shenanigans that they ordinarily would gravitate towards. The kids have no choice about attending the after school program (funded by the state) but they do get to choose what to do after the study hall period. His MA club is one of the bigger ones & remarkably enough, his kids are not fighting & fussing as much as they did prior to it.

Problem is... it's one school & a sponsored program, not a curriculum course.


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## harlan (Feb 6, 2012)

To the original post: no. 

It would just be more state sanctioned 'programming'; feel-good, gutted, artsy and empty. There are already plenty of schools that teach 'schoolboy karate', 'head-chest-down' nonsense.


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## Steve (Feb 6, 2012)

In answer to the OP, speaking just for the USA, I think that the way we have it now works just fine.  The kids have PE credits that they have to take, whether it be swimming or something more traditional.  And many schools (I'd say most in the USA) have wrestling teams.  No kids are turned away and everyone benefits, even if you're on the JV squad.  There are other competitive teams, as well.  My kids' high school has a marksman team which competes as a part of the JROTC program.  

Many schools have additional teams or clubs, which are sponsored by the school and have faculty advisors.  There are Judo clubs all over our area, which are great.  There are boxing clubs, and some schools even have MMA clubs.  

Personally, to make it a class is unnecessary and would be the worst kind of instruction.  I see it devolving into cursory martial arts instruction with a lot of LARPing.  Bottom line, don't try to fix what's not broken.


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## Carol (Feb 6, 2012)

There is a high school MMA program in Winchester, MA.  I wish more New England schools -- scratch, I wish more American schools --  were doing this.   Its popular with young people, many kids love doing it and this gives them exposure through a proper coach, instead of messing around on their own.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 6, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> This is a discussion I had on my way to training the other night with my twelve year old daughter and her friend. They were going to sit in on grappling night & watch the old man try to hold his own. They had both seen the new Karate Kid movie and had said just how cool it would be if American schools had martial arts instead of gym class like China, Japan, and Korea. This is really a question for the Western countries given that many of the Asian countries require a martial art as part of their daily schedule. So for all those European friends, Aussies, Canadian buddies and Yanks out there let me know what you think. If you do think it should be in the schools which one, or how many, and why that one. And for anyone out there who has taken a martial art as part of their school curriculum please tell us how it went.




Not only do I think that martial arts should be taught in the public school systems, I brought that idea up and have taught classes drawn from the populace of nearby schools. As long as the standards for quality is high and there isn't a moratorium on sparring? I absolutely believe that martial arts would be a massive help to our school systems in every way.


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## decepticon (Feb 6, 2012)

No, I do not think MA should be taught in American public schools.

First, as has been addressed in various other threads and a bit here, not every person is temperamentally suited to handle the type of knowledge MA training imparts. So if a kid with anger management and impulse control issues showed up for class, the instructor would have great difficulty in finding a way to exclude him from training, regardless of whether he knew he would be creating a monster. Unfortunately American schools have been forced via lawsuits to now take equal treatment to a fault, the sad result of which is that some kids don't get as much as they need while other kids get way more than is good for them. Students can't be singled out for separate treatment.

Secondly, I can only imagine the outcry from religious families who would be horrified that their child was being indoctrinated with evil Eastern pagan thoughts. Probably only topped by those pacifist  families who were furious that their children were being forced to become cold-blooded killers. Seriously though, I do know some people who truly hold pacifist beliefs and who would keep their children out of school rather than have them exposed to MA training or to children who had taken such. (They don't hang around us much any more since we do martial arts and my daughter has become a competitive archer and shooter in rifle, pistol, and shotgun.)

Third, I expect such classes would become the new meat and potatoes for greedy lawyers and suit-happy parents. As we all know, bumps and bruises are part and parcel of MA training - even if they come from improperly contacting a pad - and that would be the focus of numerous lawsuits over lack of supervision, inadequate training, child endangerment, etc. I doubt many schools would be willing to open themselves up to this type of legal risk.

And finally, I agree with others who have posted here that MA by committee seems to excel at taking the teeth out of any system. Can't do this, it offends member A. Can't do that, it bothers member B. This other thing seems inappropriate to member C's sense of historical accuracy, etc. 

I have read something about the fact that in some California schools, self defense classes are being taught. Not sure whether they are mandatory. However the last thing I read mentioned that the school bullies had already come up with a way to counter the SD moves taught, so I'm not sure what value the program has.


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## Tez3 (Feb 6, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Top boys school in Great Britain, y'mean, dontcha? :lol:



Actually no I didn't lol, it really is the best school in the world, there's not one to touch it anywhere. It's produced more leaders of countries than anywhere else, also the most influential people, artists, soldiers,scientists, economists, politicians, kings, writers etc etc. There is no country in the world that hasn't been affected by old Etonians.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Old_Etonians_born_before_the_18th_century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Old_Etonians_born_in_the_18th_century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_Old_Etonians_born_in_the_19th_century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_Old_Etonians_born_in_the_20th_century


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## geezer (Feb 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Actually no I didn't lol, it really is the best school in the world, there's not one to touch it anywhere. It's produced more leaders of countries than anywhere else, also the most influential people, artists, soldiers,scientists, economists, politicians, kings, writers etc etc. There is no country in the world that hasn't been affected by old Etonians.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Old_Etonians_born_before_the_18th_century
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famous_Old_Etonians_born_in_the_18th_century
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_Old_Etonians_born_in_the_19th_century
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_notable_Old_Etonians_born_in_the_20th_century



Impressive list to be sure. But is this the result of the _education_ imparted alone or the combination of education, ambition, money, class, and connections that come to play? Although we, on this side of the pond like to think of ourselves as more meritocratic and less influenced by class, look at the number of our leaders who hail from elite prep schools and Ivy League colleges. For example, both George Bushes and Al Gore were Yalies, and members of Skull and Bones too, if I remember correctly. My father and older brother went to Ivy League colleges. I did not, but I was still fortunate enough to have had a "priviledged" private education (attending fifth and sixth forms at an elite boys boarding school and then attending a prestigious private four year college). But whereas my brother finished his education as a Keasbey Fellow at University College, Oxford, I simply got my graduate degrees at the local state university, paid for it myself, and I've spent my life since earning a fairly meager income teaching in a large public (in the American sense) school serving a poor neighborhood. I will say that the contrast in educational philosophy and opportunity is extreme. Yet the state-funded "public" system does produce some incredible talents. Or perhaps, incredible talent will emerge regardless!


Now to the OP. I can't see Martial Arts being offered widely in our public schools, even as an extracurricular "club" activity. The liability factor is too great. I do have a friend, a history teacher, who sponsors our (Western historical) "Sword-fighting Club". His request to start the club was approved with the clear understanding that if "anything happened" he would have zero support from administration and it would probably mean his job.


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## Steve (Feb 6, 2012)

Are you guys who are against MA even as clubs just missing that many schools already have them, and they're working just fine?

And this talk about temperament is just laughable.  Like they'd be learning dim mak.  Come on.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## pgsmith (Feb 6, 2012)

Chuck Norris started something along those lines a number of years ago. My youngest son (24 now) was in the class when he was in seventh grade. He didn't learn a whole lot martial wise, but he was (and still is!) lousy at the traditional sports oriented PE classes, and this gave him something constructive to do with his PE time. He loved the program and all of the kids that were in it (mostly, but not all problem kids) learned a great deal from the instructor about discipline and control of themselves. I thought it was a great program myself, but it became too controversial for suburbia and they discontinued the program after a couple of years.
http://kickstartkids.org/program.html


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2012)

geezer said:


> Impressive list to be sure. But is this the result of the _education_ imparted alone or the combination of education, ambition, money, class, and connections that come to play? Although we, on this side of the pond like to think of ourselves as more meritocratic and less influenced by class, look at the number of our leaders who hail from elite prep schools and Ivy League colleges. For example, both George Bushes and Al Gore were Yalies, and members of Skull and Bones too, if I remember correctly. My father and older brother went to Ivy League colleges. I did not, but I was still fortunate enough to have had a "priviledged" private education (attending fifth and sixth forms at an elite boys boarding school and then attending a prestigious private four year college). But whereas my brother finished his education as a Keasbey Fellow at University College, Oxford, I simply got my graduate degrees at the local state university, paid for it myself, and I've spent my life since earning a fairly meager income teaching in a large public (in the American sense) school serving a poor neighborhood. I will say that the contrast in educational philosophy and opportunity is extreme. Yet the state-funded "public" system does produce some incredible talents. Or perhaps, incredible talent will emerge regardless!
> 
> 
> Now to the OP. I can't see Martial Arts being offered widely in our public schools, even as an extracurricular "club" activity. The liability factor is too great. I do have a friend, a history teacher, who sponsors our (Western historical) "Sword-fighting Club". His request to start the club was approved with the clear understanding that if "anything happened" he would have zero support from administration and it would probably mean his job.





It's education at this school, not everyone has to have money to go there. Many accuse them of teaching arrogance but it's self confidence, the ability to lead, the ability to think and the ability to know that one can do anything that is taught there. They leave there as 'leaders' of the world, what they are taught while there rules everything they do subsequently one way or another, they teach a supreme self belief. I have several friends who went there and and it's something more than the old boy network, family and money, you can get that from any minor public school but it is something they teach there that's different. They've been at it since 1440 so had plenty of time to get it right.


However the fact they allow Capoiera to be taught probably means it's not as useless as some here think lol!


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

I don't know if it is taught for credit, but here in hawaii judo is a high school letter sport. So in that sense, it is taught in the public schools, through practices for matches.


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## elder999 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> It's education at this school, not everyone has to have money to go there. Many accuse them of teaching arrogance but it's self confidence, the ability to lead, the ability to think and the ability to know that one can do anything that is taught there. They leave there as 'leaders' of the world, what they are taught while there rules everything they do subsequently one way or another, they teach a supreme self belief. I have several friends who went there and and it's something more than the old boy network, family and money, you can get that from any minor public school but it is something they teach there that's different. They've been at it since 1440 so had plenty of time to get it right.



According to this list, _compiled in the UK,_ it's only the third best boys boarding in the UK.

Internationally, off the top of my head, I'd personally consider Aiglon College in Switzerland a better school, as well as Westminster Academy in England. I'm also pretty partial to the Hotchkiss School ( :lol: )and Choate here in the States.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2012)

elder999 said:


> According to this list, _compiled in the UK,_ it's only the third best boys boarding in the UK.
> 
> Internationally, off the top of my head, I'd personally consider Aiglon College in Switzerland a better school, as well as Westminster Academy in England. I'm also pretty partial to the Hotchkiss School ( :lol: )and Choate here in the States.



That's a private company comparing GCSE results. Eton is as much about character building as academic results, any school that can boast 35 Victoria Crosses for it's ex pupils has to be somewhat above the rest. William Pitt went there, as did John Maynard Keynes as well as a lot of others who helped shape many countries and many peoples future's since the 15th century.  Eton is about more than just passing exams it's about shaping the world and you'd be surprised how much many countries owe old Etonians for that whether for the good or the bad. You can say it's money and background but neither of them help when on the battlefield or as in Captain Oates case giving your life for others even if it was in vain. Eton is a state of mind as much as a place to learn to read and write.


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## elder999 (Feb 8, 2012)

Tez3 said:
			
		

> That's a private company comparing GCSE results. Eton is as much about character building as academic results, any school that can boast 35 Victoria Crosses for it's ex pupils has to be somewhat above the rest. William Pitt went there, as did John Maynard Keynes as well as a lot of others who helped shape many countries and many peoples future's since the 15th century.  Eton is about more than just passing exams it's about shaping the world and you'd be surprised how much many countries owe old Etonians for that whether for the good or the bad. You can say it's money and background but neither of them help when on the battlefield or as in Captain Oates case giving your life for others even if it was in vain. Eton is a state of mind as much as a place to learn to read and write.



You can find a long list of distinguished alumni from most of these institutions-the older they are, the longer and more distinguished the list. While the gravitas of all that history and tradition might have some bearing towards "a state of mind"-*as it does with all of them* it has _nothing whatsoever_ the "best school, least of all "in the world." 

Which, in the end, is only your _opinion_, after all.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2012)

elder999 said:


> You can find a long list of distinguished alumni from most of these institutions-the older they are, the longer and more distinguished the list. While the gravitas of all that history and tradition might have some bearing towards "a state of mind"-*as it does with all of them* it has _nothing whatsoever_ the "best school, least of all "in the world."
> 
> Which, in the end, is only your _opinion_, after all.



And that of Old Etonians such as our Prime Minister lol.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Feb 11, 2012)

As long as there are great Karate teachers in the Western world to have the ability to teach children in elementary schools and teens in high school, I would say that it would be a great idea. That can hopefully lower the statistics of children being bullied at school throughout the world. For a start there are some Universities in parts of the Western world that has Karate clubs and other Martial Art clubs. It can accomodate College student who want to continue their Martial Art training while doing their studies or College students who want to give this stuff a try.


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## OwlMatt (Feb 15, 2012)

I work at a school for special needs students that is chartered through the public school system. We teach taekwondo to our elementary and middle school students in place of traditional PE. I think the structure added by TKD helps a lot of our autistic kids, and  a few students who never would have considered trying to be competitive athletes are getting involved in tournaments.

In high school, where credits matter, we have to follow district and state PE standards, though some high schoolers still participate in extracurricular TKD.

All in all, I'd say TKD has been a big success here, but I'm not sure how it would work in a bigger school with larger classes.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 15, 2012)

decepticon said:


> ...
> 
> Secondly, I can only imagine the outcry from religious families who would be horrified that their child was being indoctrinated with evil Eastern pagan thoughts. Probably only topped by those pacifist families who were furious that their children were being forced to become cold-blooded killers.
> 
> ...



In Korea, my GM taught classes to high school students.  It was a replacement for other sports.  That was no doubt more acceptable there than it might be in the US.  It and the schools were also under the auspices of the military.  When he came to the US, I tried to get something going at the local high schools, as an extra-curricular activity or club.  Even with inside help it soon got mired down in red tape and legal protections.  It never got off the ground.

As to bullies, I think the instructor must be given complete control over who and how he teaches, just as he would in a private dojang.  He has to be able to enforce discipline.  Those things allow the instructor to weed out or change bullies.  My GM pretty much did that by force of personality, but he also had the enforcement of the grades he handed out.  It was part of the curiculam and the students received academic grades.

But I just think it would be hard to get off the gound in the USA in most places.  Obviously Hawaii is an exception.  That is great.


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## Buka (Feb 16, 2012)

In some public schools, in affluent towns here in Massachusetts,  they have created a no flunk program (my words, not theirs). They will not, under any circumstances, keep back a student, nor send him to summer school. They have found that doing so "might bruise their psyche". (their words, not mine).
If a student doesn't do any homework, I'm talking NONE at all, and fails every single test and quizz, and gets straight F's on report cards from grade one through senior year in high school, they still get promoted.

Enter several young boys who have learned the school's stand on this issue. They laugh, with the attitude, "hey, they're going to promote me anyway!" So they do nothing - but keep getting promoted. (I have spoken to some of these kids)

So, I wonder what would happen if these schools had a Martial Arts program as part of their curriculum? I envision belt tests. 
"Johnny, you're being tested for your green belt." Do you know your Katas?
Johnny, "No."
Have you done your pushups?
Johnny, "No. I don't like pushups."
Okay, no problem, here's your green belt.

I also wonder what would happen if schools did implement Martial Arts. Think there would be any shenanigans behind closed doors as to what style was taught, or what local MA instructor would be teaching?  Oh, that would be a hoot. At least around here.


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## geezer (Feb 16, 2012)

Buka said:


> In some public schools, in affluent towns here in Massachusetts, they have created a no flunk program (my words, not theirs). They will not, under any circumstances, keep back a student, nor send him to summer school. They have found that doing so "might bruise their psyche". (their words, not mine).



To a less extreme degree that's the policy in many school districts all around the country. You've heard of "social promotion", right? The reasons go well beyond considerations of the poor child's "bruised psyche" or self esteem. There are practical issues, such as what to do if a kid keeps flunking. You can't have a sexually active 14 or 15 year-old delinquent repeating the 6th grade indefinitely and hanging out with 11 and 12 year-old girls. But the law says he has to be in school, and there's no money for special programs to segregate such kids from the general population. And, if you enforce very rigid promotion requirements, certain groups within our population will fail at a higher rate. The political fallout is something no school administrator or local politician is prepared to handle. Parents are part of the equation too. It's a lot easier to pass the buck and blame the schools rather than to value education at home, demand that their kids do their homework and attend school regularly.

Besides, the solution to such problems is obvious. _Just blame the teacher_. Cut their salaries, increase their hours, overcrowd their classes, double their paperwork load, and make what meager wages they still receive dependent on their students grades and test scores ...even if the students themselves don't care. 

BTW I'm not making this up. It's my life!


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## SavageMan (Feb 16, 2012)

WOW! Never expected this post to stir up such a buzz. Can't say I'm not pleased by it though. Just to hit on a few things mentioned. I'm a little surprised by a lot of the negative responses from some of the Seniors here on this one. Especially to say that keeping a kid out of MA because he has anger issues. What? I thought the discipline of MA helped to solve that one. I've even seen it help some of the younger guys in the MMA scene. By the way one of my twin boys is severely ADHD & has a form of Asperger's syndrome, he has problems adjusting to social circumstance and can become explosive. Guess what his Doctor recommended. Put him in Martial Arts! Imagine that. Take a kid who has trouble with focus, behavior, & anger issues and teach him an art that gives him focus, self control, and confidence. What a novel idea. As for those of you who say that if the kid wants to learn they could go to the local gym and pay for it. Shame on you. If I could have gotten half of the young men I dealt with in the Juvenile system into a class 2 to 3 years prior to their first offense, who knows how many I wouldn't have had in the first place. A Lot of the kids in the American public school system are getting their lunches paid for by the state, what makes you think their parents could afford or even care enough to send them to a gym. Those are the kids that need it the most, and the kids we will continue to fail. Especially with those kinds of attitudes. We as martial artist can't sit and complain of the negative attitudes from the general public towards MA, then think we can pick and chose students and judge others on merit without a chance to prove otherwise. I wonder if that would have been the attitude of the Masters who brought are respective arts out of the east to the west if we would be having this debate? Again thank you to all that responded to the post it is my pleasure to be among such a versatile group.


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## Steve (Feb 16, 2012)

Buka said:


> In some public schools, in affluent towns here in Massachusetts,  they have created a no flunk program (my words, not theirs). They will not, under any circumstances, keep back a student, nor send him to summer school. They have found that doing so "might bruise their psyche". (their words, not mine).
> If a student doesn't do any homework, I'm talking NONE at all, and fails every single test and quizz, and gets straight F's on report cards from grade one through senior year in high school, they still get promoted.
> 
> Enter several young boys who have learned the school's stand on this issue. They laugh, with the attitude, "hey, they're going to promote me anyway!" So they do nothing - but keep getting promoted. (I have spoken to some of these kids)
> ...



Can you post a link to that school district website?  This is ridiculous enough hat I need to see it to believe it.

Also, and being serious, how is that any different than most "traditional ma" kids programs?  Provided the check clears, of course.


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 18, 2012)

My son and I have been trying for over   year to get a program in the schools in my area. So far all we have hit is excuses why we can not do this.
Personaly i feel that martial arts would help many of todays youths with a little respect, concentration, and personal value.  I see nothing wrong with youths learning how to defend themsleves and maybe even getting into better shape


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## Toast_in_the_Machine (Feb 18, 2012)

SavageMan said:


> Especially to say that keeping a kid out of MA because he has anger issues. What? I thought the discipline of MA helped to solve that one. I've even seen it help some of the younger guys in the MMA scene.
> (snip)
> Take a kid who has trouble with focus, behavior, & anger issues and teach him an art that gives him focus, self control, and confidence. What a novel idea.
> 
> ...


 
(Sorry for the editing, still not used to this board).

The problem with MA in schools is that the discipline needed is not backed up by a desire to be there, by a willingness to participate, or by a parental pressure.  The power of discipline in schools is the power of the state.  It isn&#8217;t the problem of what do you do with &#8220;at risk&#8221; kids, for whom the power of the state is the greatest force in their life.  The problem is with those kids whose parents have means and power that rivals what the child would see from the state.  How does the MA instructor discipline the kid whose parents makes $250,000 a year, leave the kid to be raised by his peers, and all the kid respects is money?  Making MA  a requirement means making it a requirement for all, not just those that need it, but those that reject the core values of MA and have the means to do so.

Yes, we should make MA more available to people with less means and with the implicit knowledge that those are people who are more likely to need MA, but the public schools in the US is not the place to do so.


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## puunui (Feb 19, 2012)

Judo is taught in the hawaii public school system, in at least some high schools. Judo is also a high school letter sport.


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## onthechin (Feb 21, 2012)

I reckon judo would be a great assett to ANY school. If kids are gonna bully other kids they will, regardless of any MA tuition. Take a look at those 2 korean kids recently...sentenced to 3 and 3.5 years for bullying a kid who committed suicide. I wouldnt advocate teaching a striking art but judo...why not? I did judo as a kid and the first use I had was when riding one handed at night on a bike  I hit a bump and whoooah...break fall saved me from really hurting myself..As for VC's, and how many were awarded to etonians...yes, an impressive figure BUT...you need to remember that any medal required an officer to witness the act..take a look at any guy who got a medal...chances are he was an officer and the NCO or private got 'mentioned in dispatches'...Back in those days the UK was (and still is to a much greater degree than countries like canada, the US or australia) a class based society.


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 21, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I suspect it would have benefits, but I sincerely doubt it would happen in public schools in the USA.  Those days are long gone.
> 
> When I was a lad, there was a 22 caliber rifle range in the basement of my grade school, where marksmanship was taught.  It was no longer used, and that was in the 1960s.  I don't know when it had been last used; the school was built in the early 1900s.
> 
> ...



I agree with all of the above. 

The idea of MA in the public school curriculum has been discussed for decades (Peter Urban, in "The Karate Dojo", 1967, remarks that it would be a good thing). However the entire social climate has gone in the wrong direction. Today any such program would be doomed on several levels.


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## pgsmith (Feb 21, 2012)

> Today any such program would be doomed on several levels.



  From the Kick Start Kids web site that was cited earlier in the thread ... 

" Today, our program operates in over 40 middle schools in the Houston, Dallas, Galveston, Austin/Pflugerville, Navasota, Bryan/College Station and Alvin areas of Texas. We currently serve over 6,500 of today's youth, making a positive impact in their lives. "


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

onthechin said:


> I reckon judo would be a great assett to ANY school. If kids are gonna bully other kids they will, regardless of any MA tuition.




I believe that the judo taught in PE classes at some hawaii high schools is focused more on competition than for self defense. There is a lot of cross training between wrestling and judo here at the high school sport level. In fact, many judo high school age black belts have gone on to become state and national high school wrestling champions, not to mention an olympic medal as well.


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 21, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> From the Kick Start Kids web site that was cited earlier in the thread ...
> 
> " Today, our program operates in over 40 middle schools in the Houston, Dallas, Galveston, Austin/Pflugerville, Navasota, Bryan/College Station and Alvin areas of Texas. We currently serve over 6,500 of today's youth, making a positive impact in their lives. "



If it's working, I mean to say - actually turning out quality MA instruction for kids at the PS level - I think it's great. But to be utterly frank, I can't believe it.

I'm sitting here thinking this over - no, I just can't believe that quality technique and "mature values" are managing to be taught in a PS system today. 

If I'm wrong on this, however, I'd be damn glad about it!


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## pgsmith (Feb 21, 2012)

> If it's working, I mean to say - actually turning out quality MA instruction for kids at the PS level - I think it's great. But to be utterly frank, I can't believe it.


  That depends on what you consider quality martial arts instruction.  My youngest (now 24) was in that program when he was at middle school. You had to either be placed, or apply for the program, and did it instead of the standard PE class. After achieving a certain level sparring was required, but the main emphasis was on intangibles. My son learned better coordination, how to think on his feet, and how to roll when he fell down, but he didn't learn a whole lot of "self defense". It ended up getting dropped in our school district due to budgetary reasons. I thought the program was great myself, as a number of problem kids were assigned to that class and they learned discipline and respect that they weren't learning in other places. 

The key, I think, was that it wasn't required. That kept the problem parents from objecting because their precious darlings didn't have to be in it. They had a demo team that performed at school functions so it lent a certain prestige to those that were willing to do it.


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 21, 2012)

Pgsmith, thanks for the info. You make some very good points (The key, I think, was that it wasn't required. That kept the problem  parents from objecting because their precious darlings didn't have to be  in it.) 

However, I am not surprised it was dropped due to  "budgetary reasons" - sign of the times.


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## chinto (Feb 22, 2012)

unfortunately with the liberal types who do believe in things like promotions to the next grade. They insist on such things  regardless of their actual ability to preform to that grades level in any way.  They then scream when with a High School Diploma little Jane and little Johny cant read or write or add or subtract, is not their falt!!!  

So you know the cry of " oh NO that is VIOLENCE being taught!!!" will be long and loud and the schools will just say NO and it will not happen.

IF it did , the only way it would be a really good thing is if it was taught primarily for self defense!


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## Buka (Feb 22, 2012)

Steve said:


> Can you post a link to that school district website?  This is ridiculous enough hat I need to see it to believe it.
> 
> Also, and being serious, how is that any different than most "traditional ma" kids programs?  Provided the check clears, of course.
> 
> ...



http://www.sharon.k12.ma.us/pages/Sharon_Public_Schools

Good point about the ma kids program, too.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 22, 2012)

onthechin said:


> I reckon judo would be a great assett to ANY school. If kids are gonna bully other kids they will, regardless of any MA tuition. Take a look at those 2 korean kids recently...sentenced to 3 and 3.5 years for bullying a kid who committed suicide. I wouldnt advocate teaching a striking art but judo...why not? I did judo as a kid and the first use I had was when riding one handed at night on a bike  I hit a bump and whoooah...break fall saved me from really hurting myself..As for VC's, and how many were awarded to etonians...yes, an impressive figure BUT...you need to remember that any medal required an officer to witness the act..take a look at any guy who got a medal...chances are he was an officer and the NCO or private got 'mentioned in dispatches'...Back in those days the UK was (and still is to a much greater degree than countries like canada, the US or australia) a class based society.


Because then, if the wrong person learnt how to, say, slam someone onto their back then choke them out, itll be alot more dangerous than some degenerate swinging their hands 1-3 times then gloating over the blood and leaving.


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## pgsmith (Feb 22, 2012)

chinto said:
			
		

> IF it did , the only way it would be a really good thing is if it was taught primarily for self defense!


  Why in the world would you say that? Self defense is something that the vast majority of people will never need, unless they are actually in a law enforcement or security profession. Of the hundreds of martial artists that I know personally, I could count on one hand the number that have actually had to defend themselves from a violent attacker.


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## puunui (Feb 22, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> Why in the world would you say that? Self defense is something that the vast majority of people will never need, unless they are actually in a law enforcement or security profession. Of the hundreds of martial artists that I know personally, I could count on one hand the number that have actually had to defend themselves from a violent attacker.



Some really believe that the be all and end all of martial arts is practical self defense application, that if you aren't going for that, then you are not a "true martial artist", or something along those lines.


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