# Dojo challenging? Still active?



## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos. 

Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."

And, "you can't be good at all without any 'formal' training such as a dojo."

Obviously those people need to understand that you don't need others to teach yourself or develop a style of your own. 
Books also can assist in understanding. 

So by never being in a dojo to train 'formally', would it prove them all by challenging a dojo with all due respect and honors offered. 

Thanks for offering helpful comments. Don't waste space or I'll report you on-the-spot.


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## geezer (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos.
> 
> Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."
> 
> ...


 
If you like to fight and have some natural aptitude,  you might be able to get pretty good at kicking butt from a combination of training with friends and life experience  ...you know, gym hopping, sparring with some tough buddies, getting in fights, and so forth.

That said, that's not what most TMA are about. Certainly not what my group is about. And challenging schools would prove absolutely _nothing_. Traditional martial artists know that sometimes untrained or self trained individuals can pretty tough. And some traditional martial artists aren't very effective fighters. So what? 

Participating as a guest in the open sparring sessions held by some groups is one thing. _Dojo challenging_ is another. If it were me, I'd ask you to leave, then if you didn't , I'd call the cops.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

Can you expand on "open sparring sessions"

And wow. You'd go that far with cops? Even if he wasn't doing anything illegal or threatening.


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

Absolutely,  if someone comes into my school and starts threatening my students, I would call the cops too.  Now coming to broaden your horizons and entering the class and sparring sessions as a respectful student would acceptable.  But just coming in and challenging people to a fight, that's trouble.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

You don't understand. You walk in and not challenge the students. You wait to talk to the sensei and do your greetings and ask to challenge the dojo, then he tells you what you have to do. Usually fight the senpais


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> You don't understand. You walk in and not challenge the students. You wait to talk to the sensei and do your greetings and ask to challenge the dojo, then he tells you what you have to do. Usually fight the senpais




Why would you do that?


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

*facepalm*

For a adventure/knowledge/understanding


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos.



Only if you want to land in jail.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."



And they are absolutely correct. I've read many books about martial arts. I've written two of them. I've watched tons of videos. 
You can't learn martial arts from books or videos.



Nate the foreverman said:


> And, "you can't be good at all without any 'formal' training such as a dojo."



That is absolutely correct. You cannot learn martial arts from books and videos, even if you've convinced yourself that you're something special. Here's a free clue. You're not. Every kid thinks they are. Learning to separate this fantasy from reality is part of the process of maturing.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Obviously those people need to understand that you don't need others to teach yourself or develop a style of your own.
> Books also can assist in understanding.



Do you catch bullets in your teeth as part of your training?



Nate the foreverman said:


> So by never being in a dojo to train 'formally', would it prove them all by challenging a dojo with all due respect and honors offered.



Where's that ROFL thing that Elder999 uses???



Nate the foreverman said:


> Thanks for offering helpful comments. Don't waste space or I'll report you on-the-spot.



By all means. If you think someone if violating the TOS, you should report them. Make sure you've read and understood the TOS yourself, though.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> You don't understand. You walk in and not challenge the students. You wait to talk to the sensei and do your greetings and ask to challenge the dojo, then he tells you what you have to do. Usually fight the senpais



Allow me to quote one of the Great Ones.... Great GrandMaster Mr MIagi... "You too much TV."


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> You don't understand. You walk in and not challenge the students. You wait to talk to the sensei and do your greetings and ask to challenge the dojo, then he tells you what you have to do. Usually fight the senpais



I think I understand.  What you are suggesting reminds me of that movie IP Man.  In this day and age, in the USA at least, that kind of thing just isn't going on.  If you are looking to test your mettle in competition I suggest joining an MMA program that competes.

We had a guy show up from a rival school back in the early nineties.  He participated in one class and then asked to spar.  He ignored every rule and tried to hurt people.  He punched the throat and tried to break someone's knee.  He was asked to leave and when he refused we called the police, then he ran away.  I think he was attempting to discredit us.  It didn't work, 20 years later we are all still going strong and teaching.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

Thanks for the story. How dishonorable ignoring the rules.

Edit: who disagreed with my post???? Do you like to brake honor-bound rules ??


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 15, 2015)

OK, this sounds like fun.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos. .



I have never seen that myself.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."



ONLY training by yourself is hurting more than helping.
NEVER training by yourself (as in never practicing what you have learned in class at home) is hurting more than helping.




Nate the foreverman said:


> And, "you can't be good at all without any 'formal' training such as a dojo."



It would be more accurate to say that you can't be good at all without learning form a qualified and competent instructor



Nate the foreverman said:


> Obviously those people need to understand that you don't need others to teach yourself or develop a style of your own.



You do if you want to be any good.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Books also can assist in understanding.



Books are no substitute for experience.



Nate the foreverman said:


> So by never being in a dojo to train 'formally', would it prove them all by challenging a dojo with all due respect and honors offered.



Good luck with that.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Thanks for offering helpful comments. Don't waste space or I'll report you on-the-spot.


Your welcome.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> For a adventure/knowledge/understanding



Well, no, what you're describing falls more into the category of "ego trip to fantasy land" than anything else...


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> For a adventure/knowledge/understanding



An adventure in what? A potential beating up, a visit to the police station then court?
Knowledge of what? How to disrupt martial arts students going about their normal training? Why would anyone want to teach you anything when you intend to challenge them to a fight. You won't learn much if you get KO'd will you. Will you learn anything if they politely refuse and turn their backs on you?
I would suggest pushing your way into a dojo and challenging people will give you no understanding whatsoever though I can imagine the students will understand that is not how civilised people behave.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2015)

Just go do a fight. Pick a rule set that appeals and compete in that.

then there is no need to be challenging dojos.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

Is what they used to di


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Is what they used to di



It's generally a bad idea to assume that you're going to learn anything real from fantasy novels.
Now, don't get me wrong. I still enjoy Diablo III, and I played D&D from the start, with the basic set. But I knew the difference between fantasy and reality.
Find someone willing to train you. Quit claiming to be something you're clearly not.


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## K-man (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos.


I don't know if dojo challenging was ever an acceptable option. Why would you even bother? There are 'All Styles' tournaments every few weeks if you want to compete. There are MMA events regularly as well so why would you want to challenge an individual dojo?


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Is what they used to di




Who are 'they'?  I've been in martial arts for many, many years and I've never heard or known of anyone who has 'invaded' a dojo. I've seen fictional 'invasions' in films though.......


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 15, 2015)

Japan. For renown appeal.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Japan. For renown appeal.



Can someone translate this into English?

Again, Nate, you need to get out of the fantasy world and into reality. I've been training for about 45 years. I've trained in schools all over the US and Europe. I've seen tons of visitors at schools, and I've visited tons of schools.
I've never seen dojo challenging outside of fiction. I've never heard a confirmable story about a dojo challenge, outside of fiction.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 15, 2015)

*Here is the thing Nate*.  Someone comes into a business (all commercial schools are in business) and challenges them (dojo storms) to a fight.  From a business perspective it is a lose, lose situation to accept the challenge.  If they do and win (which they are supposed to) the person coming in could be hurt and sue them.  If they lose, their system might be looked less favorably upon and their reputation diminished.  They have nothing to gain.

Now back in the day........  this would be met with okay come back after hours and we will discuss this.  Then buda boom the *** kicking would ensue.  However, this isn't back in the day and we live in a very litigious society.

Now if a school wanted to have some thing like the "Gracie Challenge" and allow people to come in sign waivers and have a challenge match that way then they certainly could do it but........... better have some serious insurance coverage and lawyers on hand in case anyone gets hurt.  Which begs the question is it worth it?  From a business perspective and what could potentially happen is it to great of a risk? 

So if someone comes in and refuses to leave most instructors are just going to call the police and have them trespassed.  It is safe, efficient and gets rid of the knuckle head.  Just the threat of trespassing and most knuckle draggers will be out the door.

Personally I like the old school approach of come back after hours and bada boom but quite frankly that is a recipe for disaster both financially and also is going to land you in jail at some point.  *Is that worth it*?  No it isn't to deal with an idiot!


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Japan. For renown appeal.




Ok in that case I'll add to my previous post. It will be police station, court, prison, deportation.......


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos.
> 
> Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."
> 
> ...



Okay, can I have some of the roll ups you smoke please? Nah only kidding


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Thanks for the story. How dishonorable ignoring the rules.
> 
> Edit: who disagreed with my post????



From the looks of things, the answer to that question is "pretty much everybody"...



Nate the foreverman said:


> Do you like to brake honor-bound rules ??



I really think someone who claims to have been "born with a certain greatness and I achieve amazing tasks." should know the difference between "break" and "brake"... Just saying...

Of course, as always, if you think someone is "braking" the rules (how does one go about decelerating a rule?), then please use the REPORT button at the lower left.

By the way... since you have on a couple of occasions made reference to honor, let me ask you: do you think an honorable person makes false claims? Like, say, claiming a martial arts rank that they haven't earned?


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Just go do a fight. Pick a rule set that appeals and compete in that.
> 
> then there is no need to be challenging dojos.



What and get his head stuffed down his neck whom would view him as cannon fodder. Yeah great advice bear


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Okay, can I have some of the roll ups you smoke please? Nah only kidding




Actually it's his aftershave......Eau De Lusion.


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Actually it's his aftershave......Eau De Lusion.



Seriously LMFAO


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Thanks for offering helpful comments.


If you can go to boxing/MT/kickboxing/Judo/wrestling/BJJ/SC/... tournaments and win the 1st place, you can open a school after that and you can make your own system to be famous on this planet. Many cities have open mat. You can also test your skill over there against people from different styles.


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## Transk53 (Jan 15, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can go to boxing/MT/kickboxing/Judo/wrestling/BJJ/SC/... tournaments and win the 1st place, you can open a school after that and you can make your own system to be famous on this planet. Many cities have open mat. You can also test your skill over there against people from different styles.



Or alternatively, really format the game "Parrises Squares" Even a Klingon has played it!


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 15, 2015)

well I'm going to say that today most would call the police if someone asked for a challenge but that would not go far in court unless the person actually threw a punch. Asking for a challenge is not against the law.

Now as has been said by someone else back in the day it was done and Yes I have seen it. People usually got hurt, the school got trashed and the instructor usually won if the challenger was not trained. 
Sometimes challenges where given by an instructor if he felt another school was not legit. If the school owner lost he was supposed to close the school.  YES i have seen it and been part of it many years ago.

If you are stupid enough to make those challenges today you had better have a healthy insurance policy and a darn good lawyer ( even if your the challenged and accept) because today the laws have changed a little and are just plain sue happy.

The instructor has nothing to gain by accepting a challenge. He loses face if he loses but gains nothing if he wins


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

This is one reason I teach on military bases.  Most "challenging" personalites can't even get in the front gate.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 15, 2015)

How can you challenge a MA school that have 50 students? How many guys are you going to bring with you? If you challenge a CMA school, most CMA students train sword, knife, staff, spear, Guandao, ... what chance will you have when all those 50 students attack you at the same time with those kind of weapons? Also how do you know that the MA teacher doesn't have a Walther PPK in his pocket?


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

Not many martial arts teachers could afford a Walther...


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How can you challenge a MA school that have 50 students? How many guys are you going to bring with you? If you challenge a CMA school, most CMA students train dagger, sword, knife, staff, spear, Guandao, throwing dart, ... what chance will you have when all those 50 students attack you at the same time with those kind of weapons? Also how do you know that the MA teacher doesn't have a Walther PPK in his pocket?



Valid points. One has to wonder how delusional a person would have to be to think they could beat up and entire school.
I leave my gun in my bag during class.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Instructor said:


> Not many martial arts teachers could afford a Walther...



The Walther isn't really all THAT expensive. And if it's too much, the Bersa Thunder380 is a PPK clone. You can buy them all day for less than $300.


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 15, 2015)

I believe most challenges would be towards the instructor not the entire school at one time unless your Count Dante


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Because Chuck Norris...


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

Musashi was purported to take on whole schools.  Yeah... people died...  Lot's of people...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 15, 2015)

When someone challenges you, 

- you fight him with open hand, if you lose,
- you come back with knife, if you lose again,
- you come back with gun, if you still lose,
- you sue him,


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## Blindside (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> For a adventure/knowledge/understanding


 
My old kenpo school had open sparring nights, and while we never got a "challenge" we certainly got visitors who wanted to push things.  There was a reason all visitors sparred with the black belts first to vet them before allowing them near the students.  I can only think of one time where a visitor pushed things past "friendly" sparring and then the situation was remedied by the guy he was sparring.


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## Mephisto (Jan 15, 2015)

Well, I don't agree with some of you on much but I'll agree that the op is off his rocker. Nate, do you train? With a legit instructor? You seem pretty unfamiliar with martial arts, movies and anime are not even close to reality. 

You can self train, one of the dog bros "lonely dog" did it through their tapes and had some reasonable results. The guy is also ripped and a natural athlete, I'm not sure if he had any prior martial arts experience though. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone though, this guy is the exception.

As for dojo storming? Boxing gyms do it all the time, in a friendly and planned out manner. Other guys come to our gym and we go to other gyms regularly. If you want to fight go to a boxing gym, they'll probably even let you throw kicks.


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## Drose427 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate, go challenge a gym or training hall until one accepts instead of throwing you out. At the very least, you'll understand "solo" training is not enough.

TO answer your question, no its not really acceptable anymore. Most schools dont feel the need to validate their training in that way. Over the years, my old boxing gym has had local champs and people compete at the arnold classic. My TSD Association has never had someone in a situation where they couldn't defend themselves (fresh student schoolyard rumbles aside, but those get handled accordingly). Across the US there are hundreds of other Gyms/Schools doing the same thing.

Understand that legal consequences aside, its dishonorable and completely unethical for someone with any level of training to accept a challenge from someone with none. Its also incredibly rude for someone to politely ask to join in on sparring and completely disregard rules, regulations, and the well-being of other students. Even in Full Contact schools, sparring partners arent as bloodthirsty as people think. People have to train and work the next day.

If someone with training wants to respectfully join in on sparring, thats a little different. But thats far different than the 1970's kung-fu movie ordeal you're talking about.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> As for dojo storming? Boxing gyms do it all the time, in a friendly and planned out manner. Other guys come to our gym and we go to other gyms regularly. If you want to fight go to a boxing gym, they'll probably even let you throw kicks.



That's not really dojo storming... it's a friendly competition. We have a local boxing/kickboxing club that comes to visit regularly. We know they're coming, and we match up students from the two groups based on age/size/experience.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> What and get his head stuffed down his neck whom would view him as cannon fodder. Yeah great advice bear



look if he wants to fight to show the superiority of his style competition is the outlet for that.

If he gets his head stuffed down his neck. At least the people paying to watch get a show.


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## Instructor (Jan 15, 2015)

I think the best advice we can give him (and have) is to turn the TV off and find a good local school and start attending classes.  More reality... Less fantasy....


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## Tez3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Instructor said:


> This is one reason I teach on military bases.  Most "challenging" personalites can't even get in the front gate.




Same as us. You have to get past the Guard first


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## Buka (Jan 15, 2015)

Mark Twain said,

"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns a lesson he can learn in no other way."


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Can you expand on "open sparring sessions"
> 
> And wow. You'd go that far with cops? Even if he wasn't doing anything illegal or threatening.


Yes.

You're disrupting my business, if my school is professional martial arts school.  You're disrupting my training hall and environment if it's not a business-base.  And if you're refusing to leave after being asked -- I'll let someone with the official authority to remove you do it rather than do it my own.


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Thanks for the story. How dishonorable ignoring the rules.
> 
> Edit: who disagreed with my post???? Do you like to brake honor-bound rules ??


The rules hereabouts are enforced by folks with Moderator or Adminstrator under their username.  I'm kind of feeling it to be worthwile to remind you that Rules 1.8 and 4.1 and 4.2.6 quite clearly forbid physical challenges between users.


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> As for dojo storming? Boxing gyms do it all the time, in a friendly and planned out manner. Other guys come to our gym and we go to other gyms regularly. If you want to fight go to a boxing gym, they'll probably even let you throw kicks.


There's a difference between an open mat night, or visiting a school and some friendly sparring with them, versus walking into a training hall and challenging the students or instructor to a fight.   Within some bounds -- the former options are fun, and a good chance to learn something.  But the latter?  Brian VanCise and others have already spelled out the many problems with it.  Dojo storming went out of style some years ago... for very good reasons.


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## Mephisto (Jan 15, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> There's a difference between an open mat night, or visiting a school and some friendly sparring with them, versus walking into a training hall and challenging the students or instructor to a fight.   Within some bounds -- the former options are fun, and a good chance to learn something.  But the latter?  Brian VanCise and others have already spelled out the many problems with it.  Dojo storming went out of style some years ago... for very good reasons.


I'm glad you see my point!


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## tshadowchaser (Jan 15, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Dojo storming went out of style some years ago... for very good reasons.



yep somewhere around the mid to late 70's most likely


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## Buka (Jan 15, 2015)

There were more gyms back in the day, a lot of us used to get together for open sparring, going to each other's dojos in groups. Because of the open air of visiting, which was common knowledge across the city, there would always be unknown visitors, usually traveling in twos, usually young, who came to spar. 
They pretty much had the same rap - that they dojo hopped, but most dojos didn't want them back, presumably because they were good. We used to call them "gunslingers".

They were so fricken' cute you just wanted to hug them.


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 16, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When someone challenges you,
> 
> - you fight him with open hand, if you lose,
> - you come back with knife, if you lose again,
> ...


Unfortunately after losing with the knife you would probably be dead, then your family can sue them.


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## EklectikButterfly (Jan 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And they are absolutely correct. I've read many books about martial arts. I've written two of them. I've watched tons of videos.
> You can't learn martial arts from books or videos.


Off topic.... as a newish student, may I ask what books you've written, what about,  and how me and my eager to learn daughter may acquire them?  Thank you!




As for dojo/doJang challenging. ... that seems a bit silly to me honestly. I don get the point. And I watch videos all day long on TSD but nothing can beat actually being instructed in person by someone of decent rank and ability to teach others.


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## EklectikButterfly (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Thanks for the story. How dishonorable ignoring the rules.
> *
> Edit: who disagreed with my post???? Do you like to brake honor-bound rules ??*


Wait.... um, what?  Scratching my head here...


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

EklectikButterfly said:


> Off topic.... as a newish student, may I ask what books you've written, what about,  and how me and my eager to learn daughter may acquire them?  Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah the "challenging" bit is a little warped (except in the context of challenging yourself so to improve) but when I was young and competing at my peak I would often visit other schools out of sanctioned tournaments and fight their students.  This was testing my mettle and ability against another style but this was also so I could learn from other styles and how to combat and negate them as I had shifted into mma fighting but before "MMA Schools" had come into existence.  This was never done in an arrogant manner. Without exception I think the clubs I visited all had a fun time and things never went off on a sour note.  Sometimes the intensity levels got high but I was not there to hurt anyone - or to get hurt myself. And it was never about "my sensei/club/skills are better than yours"...please!

It's all about attitude as the experience itself can be very good for a martial artist.  Most of the clubs I visited, I knew some of the members already either from competition or just training or had approached them or the trainer in advance, or I was introduced to the head trainer by one of his students. Very rarely I turned up as a completely unknown equation through the door. Again, nothing necessarily wrong with that but it does grate a little bit from a manners perspective.  You're a guest at that dojo and personally when I have guests over to my own house I generally know in advance they are turning up!  : )


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When someone challenges you,
> 
> - you fight him with open hand, if you lose,
> - you come back with knife, if you lose again,
> ...


KFW, you often have good observations and points to make but this one seems a little el' crazo big time-o lol!!  Unless you are talking about a "Home invasion challenge" where things are escalating to save your life.  But if some guy challenges you and you accept, if you lose in fisty-cuffs it seems more than a little deranged to come back with a knife or gun. Maybe you sue him if he causes harm to you and this was outside of your understanding of the challenge conditions. But the knives and guns bit. Crazy, yes?


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I believe most challenges would be towards the instructor not the entire school at one time unless your Count Dante


Yeah. Like just said, I used to visit other clubs back in the day and fight their students on good terms, and those sessions could be at a pretty intense level.  But it was in the back of my head at some of those clubs that there is the risk if you hurt someone there is no guarantee the rest of the club won't pile in and mash you to a bloody pulp.  Things can go real bad real quick and being in a strange club surrounded by ten or twenty others does not sound like fun (unless you're Chuck Norris or Bruce Lee and have a little time on your hands to kill before wiping out the Yakuza!!).


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## Transk53 (Jan 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> look if he wants to fight to show the superiority of his style competition is the outlet for that.
> 
> If he gets his head stuffed down his neck. At least the people paying to watch get a show.



Yeah they would lol. Most people that would do that would be confident that if knocked down, they wouldn't be carried to ambulance


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

The instructor wouldn't be dumb enough to let his students fight a unknown man. Like I said. The few senpais you would fight. They choose weapon. That's why you universally train.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> The instructor wouldn't be dumb enough to let his students fight a unknown man. Like I said. The few senpais you would fight. They choose weapon. That's why you universally train.



Are you really this delusional, or just out for a troll?
Recess is about over, kid. Go back to class. Try to learn something. 




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)



And yet, you didn't respond to direct questions...

Here. I'll ask again. 

Do you think it's honorable to claim rank that hasn't been earned?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)




You haven't got the hang of this forum thing have you? And really, this isn't meant as an insult either, you need to grow up. If there were these dojo challenges going on as you seem to think they would involve the men not kids.


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> The instructor wouldn't be dumb enough to let his students fight a unknown man. Like I said. The few senpais you would fight. They choose weapon. That's why you universally train.


 

Are not the senpais the sensei's or instructor's students?  

What's this nonsense you're talking about with weapons? 

So you're going about your dojo storming with a 300 pound bag over your shoulder stuffed full of various weapons that you hope match up to the various ones that the senpais are each going to chose to engage you with??  

Let me guess, it's all "live blades" too in this bad-*** fantasy world of yours??  

Yeah so we all got the time to train in every weapon out there?    Wouldn't it be better and do like me and train in one weapon to negate and defeat all others?


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)


Kid, you need to get a life with at least some vague nexus with reality. Oh, that wasn't meant as an insult or anything   it was free life coaching.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

EklectikButterfly said:


> Off topic.... as a newish student, may I ask what books you've written, what about,  and how me and my eager to learn daughter may acquire them?  Thank you!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They're textbooks for students of Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, covering everything from dojang etiquette and tying the belt, to required poonsae through Moo Duk Kwan 3rd Dan and Kukkiwon 4th Dan. Working on another that covers one-step sparring and self-defense applications. 
They're pricey, because there are something over 800 color pictures, and color printing is expensive. 
Both are available through Blurb, and the second is available as an iBook. Just search for Moo Duk Kwan. 
But they were never intended to be commercial. Our school isn't commercial, so why would the texts be? 
The second book is available as a PDF. I give it to students on disk. If you want a copy, just contact me via private message with an email address and I'll send it along. 


As for the dojo storming... My impression is that Nate is a kid (my guess would be just a few years older than your daughter) who spends too much time watching TV and has never learned to separate fact from fancy. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> And yet, you didn't respond to direct questions...
> 
> Here. I'll ask again.
> 
> ...



No.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> They're textbooks for students of Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, covering everything from dojang etiquette and tying the belt, to required poonsae through Moo Duk Kwan 3rd Dan and Kukkiwon 4th Dan. Working on another that covers one-step sparring and self-defense applications.
> They're pricey, because there are something over 800 color pictures, and color printing is expensive.
> Both are available through Blurb, and the second is available as an iBook. Just search for Moo Duk Kwan.
> But they were never intended to be commercial. Our school isn't commercial, so why would the texts be?
> ...



I barely watch tv because my learnings take up my day. I'm training to work in a hospital now.


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

hey Nate, I thought you laid down the rules to your own micro-forum posts and that those could not include Dislikes?  Why you now "Disliking" me man?  I thought my comments were all valid, albeit with the emoticons being somewhat of a gag!  No?

Seriously though, maybe Dirty Dog is right and sorry if I hurt your feelings, you might just be a very, very young kid that has not actually got any martial art or life experience of any value what-so-ever so are simply commenting in good faith from cloud cuckoo land.


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

Learning to work in a hospital? How old, in ball-park terms, are you?


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

Also, what is the meaning of your signature, "Death is Only the Beginning"?
Is that a religious thing?  If so all cool.
Or is it from somewhere else, if so, the beginning of what exactly?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> No.



Then why do you do it?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Blindside (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)



Depending on the persons on this forum, martial arts are our hobbies or our lives.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> KFW, you often have good observations and points to make but this one seems a little el' crazo big time-o lol!!  Unless you are talking about a "Home invasion challenge" where things are escalating to save your life.  But if some guy challenges you and you accept, if you lose in fisty-cuffs it seems more than a little deranged to come back with a knife or gun. Maybe you sue him if he causes harm to you and this was outside of your understanding of the challenge conditions. But the knives and guns bit. Crazy, yes?


Actually that was a "sarcastic joke" that I have heard from a MA instructor many years ago. One of his students challenged another martial art instructor and lose (I won't mention both styles here). His student went back and told his teacher. That was exactly what his teacher told him (I added the last part "sue him" to make it a bit "funny"). So please don't take that seriously.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> I barely watch tv because my learnings take up my day. I'm training to work in a hospital now.



My point exactly. An adult would be in nursing school or radiology school. Or respiratory therapy. Or something specific. 

I've got a granddaughter in high school. It does take up most of her day...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## drop bear (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)



um...

We do kind of all have a hobby. Being a martial arts forum.


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## Zero (Jan 16, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Actually that was a "sarcastic joke" that I have heard from a MA instructor many years ago. One of his students challenged another martial art instructor and lose. He went back and told his teacher. That was exactly what his teacher told him (I added the last part "sue him" to make it a bit "funny"). So please don't take that seriously.


Ok, got it! I was simply surprised with that coming from you but now see it as a joke!


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## Blindside (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> The instructor wouldn't be dumb enough to let his students fight a unknown man. Like I said. The few senpais you would fight. They choose weapon. That's why you universally train.



Now you are adding weapons to the mix, so this "dojo challenge" just jumped from really dangerous to truly stupid.  What kind of weapons are you thinking of?


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Now you are adding weapons to the mix, so this "dojo challenge" just jumped from really dangerous to truly stupid.  What kind of weapons are you thinking of?



I'd suggest nerf guns as being the most appropriate choice. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Blindside (Jan 16, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd suggest nerf guns as being the most appropriate choice.


Airsoft pistols at 20 paces.


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## Grenadier (Jan 16, 2015)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS*

Please keep this discussion on-topic and civil.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

Why does everyone want to know my age??? I'm old enough to become a CNA. 

I'm not a religious type of person. I don't really like it personally. It creates clicks out of a nation. Let alone ~90% of people that call themselves "Christians" aren't really Christians. They just want to fit into something, they want to THINK they mean something. In all actuality most people have no real meaning to their life, don't seek their talents or what they can do. Most people I've met are selfish and self-centered that need to know the meaning of Humility. Humbleness should be a part of everyone's life. Ive met a handful (literally) of people that are good, at heart and spirit. And do you have any idea what I did when I met them?? I made sure they knew they were the most important people on this earth regarding a heart of gold and something for others to aim for! They are so beautiful to me! I tell them in front of who ever is standing there, without regret in saying they are better than most people in these hell-bent societies. 

The reason I want to become stronger than anyone else is because I want to protect those people at any cost! Those people should see the real beauty of this earth as I did when I saw them. Is not only fair?? To make a point to those that mean something is like moving the clouds so the sun can blanket a wilting flower. 

Be flexible. Like the bamboo or willow in the wind, unlike the harder trees that can crack under intense situations such as a strong wind. I am one of the most flexible people I've seen. (Not physically) I've been through allot, but I know others have their own battles, or some have been through worse. I am not nieve to those that been through more. I suck up my problems. I'm ready to bust. I don't want to because I'm afraid that I might hurt someone. I don't want to give myself trouble. I'll probably go back to meditation. It helps the mind. :zen: 

That quote is for the reader to think about it. It's to widen ones horizon. Here, I'll start a path and you finish it I you wish to take this one: When we die we enter the 'Tao.' The Tao is referred to as many things. Have fun!

Are you people happy now? I spilled my bag of weapons out. Now I don't want to hear anything negative from now on... Note sarcasm(zero) . Please that's all I ask. I hate it. I've been so kind to people and done so much volunteer work no one believes me. So you CAN be kind. If I can..


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

Weapons bostaffs and such. No blades.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 16, 2015)

So, Nate. Back to the subject of honor. Why do you do something (claim rank you haven't earned) that you've stated is dishonorable? 

People ask about your age because the vast majority of the posters here are adults. Many have been adults for a long long time. And you come across as a tween who has yet to learn to separate fact from fiction. 
Learning to do so is a part of growing up, and difficulty in doing so is normal at certain developmental stages. 
If you're a kid, people will respond to a kid, and expect you to have a kids view on things. 
If you're an adult, people will expect you expect you to have an adults view on things. 
If you're a hypocrite, (like, say, doing things you say shouldn't be done, or claiming to be something you're not) then people will assume that most of what you say is basically ********. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Drose427 (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate, to add on what Dirty Dog said, its also incredibly disrespectful to those with rank who worked that butt off to get it, for someone to come in saying "I do it all myself, never needed no training, not me!" and have no real understanding of concepts. It really seems like you're using MA to feed a fantasy, for those of us who train its rude. This thing your're claiming to know and use to feed your fantasy, or ego, or whatever is not just a livelong hobby for many people, but their livelihood.

Its like going up to a doctor and saying, "Yeah I looked at some pictures so Im a doctor too" except the doctors here are are a lot scarier


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## clfsean (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Why does everyone want to know my age??? I'm old enough to become a CNA.



CNA? Which cert is that?


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## Drose427 (Jan 16, 2015)

clfsean said:


> CNA? Which cert is that?


Nursing Assistant, some states use STNA I believe


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## Transk53 (Jan 16, 2015)

Well said both you above!


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## clfsean (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Weapons bostaffs and such. No blades.



Things like this raise alarm bells. A "bostaff" outside of Napoleon Dynamite is an oxymoron. It's equivalent to saying "a mobile car phone" or "a pistol handgun". 

So from what I've gleaned, you're not training in any Asian styles properly and there are few to none American or European non-bladed weapon training schools... what are you doing? How are you doing it? What is your methodology, basis for techniques, body mechanics and most importantly, where are you acid testing this?


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## Tez3 (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Why does everyone want to know my age???



The reason people are asking about your age is because reading your posts you come across as an immature person, now, before you
take umbrage at this, I'm going to add that there is nothing wrong with this if you are, in fact, a young person.

To be young and idealistic is quite normal, to want to impress adults is also normal so if you are in fact you are young then we understand why you write things like being a martial arts sensei etc though we wouldn't condone saying you are something when you aren't. We would also tell you that you don't have to write things to impress us, we don't need impressing just honesty from you. You don't need to be a master in martial arts here so there is no need to say you are when you aren't. It creates a bad impression, because there will always be someone here who knows more about a subject than you do and can tell if someone is not what they say they are.

I could read a lot of books about Iaido and write things on here, tell people I taught myself everything but trust me someone would know I don't actually know that much and to be honest, the person I would be cheating about saying I was an expert in Iaido would believe it or not be myself. Looking at books and videos and dancing around with a sword fooling myself into believing I was a master of the sword would mean missing being taught by _proper instructors_ and _the joy of learning_ that you get from learning from an expert.

I'm not too bad at my own martial arts but by no means know all, I don't know anyone who does, most of us who can carry on learning, going to seminars, researching, training with other groups and styles, constantly looking to learn. It's really not possible to teach yourself martial arts and  to be able to do them properly.

I will accept you are sincere in what you believe but you do need to really read and inwardly digest what people have written and rethink the way you approach martial arts and how you post on here.


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## Blindside (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Weapons bostaffs and such. No blades.


 
Do you have any clue how dangerous fighting with a "bo staff" is?  As in, "I hit you in the head and I am likely to kill you" dangerous?  The staff by some historical treatises was considered to be superior in open field combat to virtually all other weapons except for other polearms.


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## Drose427 (Jan 16, 2015)

Blindside said:


> The staff by some historical treatises was considered to be superior in open field combat to virtually all other weapons except for other polearms.



Because a weapon capable of killing someone several feet away, holds up well to swords, and makes you capable fighting multiple opponents wasn't awesome enough without a blade


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 16, 2015)

I'll be gone over the weekend so I'll reply to all of them on Monday morning.


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## jks9199 (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> The instructor wouldn't be dumb enough to let his students fight a unknown man. Like I said. The few senpais you would fight. They choose weapon. That's why you universally train.





Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)



Years back, it wasn't unheard of for people to visit training halls, and ask to spar.  In many cases, they'd start with someone at the bottom, and "prove" their way up until they got beat.  In other cases, matches between clubs would be set up.  There was even a tradition of clubs meeting, sparring across fairly equal ranks, and then having a pot luck dinner or going to restaurant for some fellowship afterwards.  Lots of this sort of thing, unfortunately, died out with increasing commercialism.

Dojo storming was another thing...  If someone opened a new dojo, and the established places took a dislike to them -- or someone new wanted to make a name for themselves, they'd literally storm into the school being challenged, cause a disruption and try to be forced out.  Yeah -- sounds like something out of TV/movie.  But it happened.  Sometimes, people died, too.  You might look up Count Dante.

You may still see some of the former, and, of course, there are still open mat days in some training halls.  But, for a commercial dojo, there's zero benefit, and lots to lose, if they let some unknown wander in and challenge students.  Best case for the school: the school's students win handily, as expected.  Will the challenger sue if he gets injured?  What if one of the school's students is injured?  Worst case: the school's students or even the teacher loses.  So, the students lose; why?  Have the been taught ineffectively?  If the teacher loses, even worse.  So, now -- the school is out of business.

If you want to see if your self-developed martial art works, look into competition.  Maybe find an open mat.  Personally?  Be prepared to eat a lot of crow.  You'll probably need to...


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## drop bear (Jan 16, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Years back, it wasn't unheard of for people to visit training halls, and ask to spar.  In many cases, they'd start with someone at the bottom, and "prove" their way up until they got beat.  In other cases, matches between clubs would be set up.  There was even a tradition of clubs meeting, sparring across fairly equal ranks, and then having a pot luck dinner or going to restaurant for some fellowship afterwards.  Lots of this sort of thing, unfortunately, died out with increasing commercialism.
> 
> Dojo storming was another thing...  If someone opened a new dojo, and the established places took a dislike to them -- or someone new wanted to make a name for themselves, they'd literally storm into the school being challenged, cause a disruption and try to be forced out.  Yeah -- sounds like something out of TV/movie.  But it happened.  Sometimes, people died, too.  You might look up Count Dante.
> 
> ...



At which point you can look up bobby Joe blythe. For all the reasons why it is wrong.

we had one guy who wanted to fight our coach. But it never happened. Same guy did eventually jump in the ring and got mauled.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 16, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."
> 
> And, "you can't be good at all without any 'formal' training such as a dojo."
> 
> Obviously those people need to understand that you don't need others to teach yourself or develop a style of your own.



Why is it "obvious?" On this forum we have people (like myself, Dirty Dog, Tez, Brian, and many others) who have spent decades training in a wide variety of arts. That's thousands of hours of hard work, study, pain, sweat, frustration, and testing ourselves and our skills. Why is it obvious that we are wrong and you are right?



Nate the foreverman said:


> So by never being in a dojo to train 'formally', would it prove them all by challenging a dojo with all due respect and honors offered.



As others have said, dojo storming is not really acceptable in this day and age. Even back when it was more common, it wasn't a matter of "due respect and honors." It generally was done with hostile intent. If you actually want to prove your skills in a respectful and honorable manner, you have a couple of options. You can enter some open competition - boxing, kickboxing, MMA, BJJ, etc - and see how you do. Alternately, you can sign up for classes at a gym that places a heavy emphasis on immediate sparring.  Any MMA gym will give you plenty of opportunities to test yourself in hard sparring.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Don't waste space or I'll report you on-the-spot.



Pre-emptively threatening people at the start of a conversation is rarely a good way to establish a productive discussion.



Nate the foreverman said:


> For a adventure/knowledge/understanding


You'll gain knowledge and understanding a lot quicker if you pay attention to people you disagree with and entertain the possibility that you might be wrong.


Nate the foreverman said:


> Ou guys keep repeating yourself. All I was looking for was the ones I "liked". Also it took me a hour to get through these. You people need a hobby or a life. (This wasn't meant as a insult)



As someone else said up-thread, for many of us martial arts _is_ our hobby and our life. We've spent thousands of hours training, we can spend a few minutes answering questions on the topic.

Also, in an open discussion, you don't get to insist that people only give you the answers you want to hear.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Humbleness should be a part of everyone's life.



I totally agree!

An example of such humbleness would be not insisting that your untrained understanding of the martial. arts is superior to the understanding of people who have spent most of their lives training.
Another example would be not awarding yourself titles.
Another example would be not telling people you were born great and have achieved amazing things.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Be flexible. Like the bamboo or willow in the wind, unlike the harder trees that can crack under intense situations such as a strong wind. I am one of the most flexible people I've seen.



A good example of flexibility would be listening to opposing viewpoints and trying to understand them without getting angry



Nate the foreverman said:


> I've been so kind to people and done so much volunteer work no one believes me.



If you make a habit of being kind and doing volunteer work, that's wonderful! I'm sure the people you help out genuinely appreciate it. Here on the forum, all we have to go on is the posts you write. Telling us how amazing you are will not impress anyone. Participating in a genuinely humble and friendly manner will get you much better results.



Nate the foreverman said:


> So you CAN be kind.



Believe it or not, we are trying to be kind. We don't want you to get hurt, and some of the ideas you have will get you in trouble.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Weapons bostaffs and such. No blades.



Real fighting with a wooden staff can get someone killed.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Why does everyone want to know my age???



Because we've all been young and many of us remember having some very unrealistic ideas about the martial arts and the world in general when we were kids. If you are indeed as young as we might suspect based on your posting, then your unrealistic notions and need to impress are much more understandable than they would be if you were a middle aged guy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2015)

The following school challenge happened many years ago in Taiwan.

2 guys walked into a new Chinese wrestling school. They sat on the floor and just watched the class. The assistant instructor asked them if they had any Chinese wrestling training. They both said that they just knew a little. The assistant instructor asked them if they were willing to wrestle with other students on the mat. They accepted. During the wrestling matches, these 2 guys defeated everybody in that school included the assistant instructor. The assistant instructor went to get the main instructor. The main instructor invited both guys to his house, served them some tea. Since there were glass powder in that tea. Both guys went home had blood came out of their rear ends for the next 3 months. Few days later, that school shut down.

One thing we can all learn from this story is:

- Right after any challenge match, never drink with the loser when he offers you something that you don't know what's in it .

The interested question here is:

- If an instructor asked a visitor to spar/wrestle with his students, who was challenging whom?


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## Steve (Jan 16, 2015)

clfsean said:


> CNA? Which cert is that?


 Certified Nursing Assistant.  My high school aged daughter is taking a class right now on that.  Running start program in cooperation with the community college and several area homes.  Takes 1 semester.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 16, 2015)

Many years ago, 2 American guys went to Taiwan in different years. Both asked "open challenge" to fight anybody in Taiwan. The 2nd guy didn't find anybody wanted to accept the challenge. The 1st guy did. These 2 pictures were from that "challenge".

To challenge just one school is one thing. To go to a foreign country and have open challenge to everybody in that country is something else.

- Courage?
- Crazy?
- Willing to test your skill?
- Searching for truth?
- ...













When Taiwan newspaper interview the 2nd guy, he said that in Taiwan, nobody was qualified to teach him. One day he met an old man in the park. He asked the old man about the application of the Taiji "needle at the bottom of the sea." While the old man tried to explain the application to him, he moves behind the old man gave that old man a "bear hug", he then said, "What will you do now?" The old man took him down. He then asked what move did the old man used to take him down. The old man told him to figure it out himself. The old man then left.

To challenge someone face to face is one thing, pretending to be friendly and ask question, suddenly attack someone from behind is something else.

This thread just remind me these 3 challenges that happened about 40 years ago.


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## RhythmGJ (Jan 17, 2015)

In Bruce Lee movies, yes. "So, you want to challenge the entire dojo? You must be tired of living!"

Count Dante tried that stuff for real back in the 70's; it didn't end well (Google search: "dojo wars").

Other than that, No, never heard if it, and must assume that it was _ever_ done, that it's been a very long time...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## RhythmGJ (Jan 17, 2015)

Oh, sorry, I missed some thread and didn't see that someone had already referenced Count Dante.

Crazy stuff!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Transk53 (Jan 17, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When someone challenges you,
> 
> - you fight him with open hand, if you lose,
> - you come back with knife, if you lose again,
> ...



Makes about much sense than the fact that tomorrow I am going to Mars!


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## Buka (Jan 17, 2015)

Since the beginning of time - _some_ guys just want to fight each other.


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## Transk53 (Jan 18, 2015)

Buka said:


> Since the beginning of time - _some_ guys just want to fight each other.



Yep and just as many get people to do it for them


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## elder999 (Jan 18, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago, 2 American guys went to Taiwan in different years. Both asked "open challenge" to fight anybody in Taiwan. The 2nd guy didn't find anybody wanted to accept the challenge. The 1st guy did. These 2 pictures were from that "challenge".
> 
> To challenge just one school is one thing. To go to a foreign country and have open challenge to everybody in that country is something else.
> 
> ...



I knew Frank-we both have Kenpo certs signed by John McSweeney. Shame about him, really. One of Chang Dung Sheng's senior students-that was, in fact, the old man in the park of your story, if I'm not mistaken, and that's how he came to be his student, and adopted son."Adopted son" first, so he could become his student, I guess. Frank actually starred in a couple of Taiwanese gung-fu movies. I called Frank a friend, and I'm a friend to many of his students still-I grew up with one or two of them! (Frank was always kind of crazy, and then he really went crazy, I guess......)

Challenges used to happen back in NY, back in the day-sometimes entire dojos challenged each other, and went to war-it wasn't pretty-in fact, it _pretty stupid_ most of the time. I think two tiger-claw kwoons challenged each other pretty openly back in the late 90's, but I wasn't there for that, and don't know exactly what happened or what it was about. I remember the gung-fu community generally being pretty cooperative and respectful of each other back when I was in NY.....

When he opened the first Enshin karate dojo in Denver, back in the 80's, Joko Ninomiya was challenged a couple of times. Those people were foolish, and he showed them the error of their ways.(Challenging a World Open winner in his own dojo? Very definition of "foolish." 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




)

When I got back from Japan, and went back to college, I was shopping around for someplace local to train (the closest Kyokushin dojos were in NYC-a once or twice a week thing at best,  and I wanted more, since I had lots of time). A tae kwon do school took my looking in their store front window with my gi slung over my shoulder as a challenge......didn't train with them.That was in 1981....

Fast forward a few years, and, shortly after another local instructor was found shot dead in his school, I met a challenge from someone on a Saturday, shortly after class. My then three year old son was playing on the mat, while students milled about and changed. The guy appeared to be in fairly good shape, and somewhat deranged, insisting that he "challenged the master of this dojo," and I said, "Let me call my sensei," picked up the phone and hit him in the head with it so he would lay down. Then I tied him up, sent someone next door to the police-supply store (run by someone I'[d known since Cub Scouts) and had the cops take the "challenger" away.

As others have said, the advent of the MMA school has made the "challenge" obsolete. Go to one, sign the mat-waiver, and you'll be tested, fair and honorably enough, with no need to go disrupting anyone's routine or harmony-which is, I'm told, the very essence of good manners and honor.

And it's likely you won't even have to go to the hospital afterwards.....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2015)

elder999 said:


> the old man in the park of your story,


The 1st challenge story was about Frank. Frank became GM Chang's adopted son because GM Chang was the chief judge in that challenge fight between Frank and 吴三珠Wu San-Zhou. 

The 2nd challenge story was not him but about Bruce Kumar Frantzis*. *


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## elder999 (Jan 18, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 1st challenge story was about Frank. The 2nd challenge story was not him but about Bruce Kumar Frantzis*. *


Yeah, thanks-I knew that, and you said it in your post, but I wasn't quite awake yet....I actually heard how Frank met Chang Tung Sheng, but I've forgotten since....I think it was actually much less dramatic....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 18, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, thanks-I knew that, and you said it in your post, but I wasn't quite awake yet....I actually heard how Frank met Chang Tung Sheng, but I've forgotten since....I think it was actually much less dramatic....


Beside these 2 guys, Robert Smith was the 3rd guy. The world must have changed quite a bit. Nothing like this ever come up on the news any more.


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## elder999 (Jan 18, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The 1st challenge story was about Frank. Frank became GM Chang's adopted son because GM Chang was the chief judge in that challenge fight between Frank and 吴三珠Wu San-Zhou.
> 
> The 2nd challenge story was not him but about Bruce Kumar Frantzis*. *



I guess Frank "had to be" adopted because he was someone else's student, and it was the only way GM Chang could take him as a student without being rude.


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## elder999 (Jan 18, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Beside these 2 guys, Robert Smith was the 3rd guy. The world must have changed quite a bit. Nothing like this ever come up on the news any more.



And yeah, Robert Smith was lucky to have not  been killed.....


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 18, 2015)

Is "Dojo Challenging still active"? Sure. There'll always be someone insecure enough, aggressive enough, obnoxious enough, or just plain stupid enough to do that.   

But last I checked, it's the 21st century, and I live in a mostly civilized nation. It's not the Han Dynasty anymore. So, anyone moronic enough to challenge me, you can deal with the boys in blue, and the man in black.


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## Buka (Jan 18, 2015)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Is "Dojo Challenging still active"? Sure. There'll always be someone insecure enough, aggressive enough, obnoxious enough, or just plain stupid enough to do that.
> 
> But last I checked, it's the 21st century, and I live in a mostly civilized nation. It's not the Han Dynasty anymore. So, anyone moronic enough to challenge me, you can deal with the boys in blue, and the man in black.



That right there.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

It's nice to see the couple stories that popped up. 

I want to bring up something and I want you guys to expand on it. It's a couple things:

1. American "senseis" that teach night classes and such at "dojos" is said to do it just for money and the students really don't learn anything other than katas how to loose money. I know a few people that the senseis now are a-holes and ask too much money. Are these teachers based on greed?


2. Are most American students in dojos feel like they are bad-a because they are in a martial arts class?


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> It's nice to see the couple stories that popped up.
> 
> I want to bring up something and I want you guys to expand on it. It's a couple things:
> 
> ...




Would I be right in guessing you aren't actually American or weren't at any rate? I don't mean that rudely, it's just the way you write English and things that you post like the above lead me to believe you aren't American born because you don't seem to understand a lot what native born Americans seem to. If I'm wrong I apologise but if I'm right please say so because it makes understanding what you write and why you write a lot easier to understand and if we can do that you will receive a lot less flak for your posts.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Let's get this straight. 

1. I am American and my first lang is English. I studied old English and such which bonded with my style in saying anything. 

2. I have many personalities. 

3.  I come off a completely different person than I am Irl. I'm actually a nice guy contrary what I seem like in posts. And I don't talk about myself Irl

4. Don't worry, I got a flak jacket. ^^


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Let's get this straight.
> 
> 1. I am American and my first lang is English. I studied old English and such which bonded with my style in saying anything.
> 
> ...




Ok that was as clear as mud. I don't know what you mean by old English but what you write isn't actually understandable English which is making the process of having a conversation with you difficult. I'm going to leave it there.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Ok that was as clear as mud. I don't know what you mean by old English but what you write isn't actually understandable English which is making the process of having a conversation with you difficult. I'm going to leave it there.



What I'm trying to say is my style of speaking is a little cloudy sometimes. I'm usually in a hurry. I'm a busy guy


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## Blindside (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> It's nice to see the couple stories that popped up.
> 
> I want to bring up something and I want you guys to expand on it. It's a couple things:
> 
> ...



Nice generalization.
1.  As an "American sensei" that does teach a night class, I don't do it just for money, I don't teach "kata", and for the most part, my guys can fight.

2.  I don't think my guys think they are bad-asses because they are in a martial arts class, but I have several guys I wouldn't want to cross if something serious was on the line.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 19, 2015)

"dislike"   LOL.  Seriously, guys who feel the need to challenge dojos also probably feel the need to use a ruler to check their junk measures up too.  Adults don't feel the need to do either.  But, children will be children.  

As to "Bad Asses", if you have to call yourself one, you just ain't.  :rofl:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hey, for anyone that can help, I'd like to know if dojo challenging is still a acceptable option towards dojos.



Only for the insecure, immature and clueless.



> Many people I've met have said, "training by yourself is hurting more than helping."



I'd agree with that.  



> And, "you can't be good at all without any 'formal' training such as a dojo."



There's a reason why the military used drill sgts, and doesn't just set newbs up with a tv screen and copy of "Saving Pvt Ryan".



> Obviously those people need to understand that you don't need others to teach yourself or develop a style of your own.
> Books also can assist in understanding.



There is a difference between teaching yourself, and learning correctly.  If you don't -know- what "correct" is, how can you adjust until you do?
A book, or a video for that matter, can't provide immediate feedback.  Spend a while learning wrong, it's hard to 'unlearn' later.



> So by never being in a dojo to train 'formally', would it prove them all by challenging a dojo with all due respect and honors offered.



In the movies and fantasy land, sure.  In reality, nope.  In reality, you're trespassing, and can be arrested.  But, once in jail, you can "pressure test" your "mad skillz" under "real world conditions".  :lol:



> Thanks for offering helpful comments. Don't waste space or I'll report you on-the-spot.



Feel free to report me.


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 19, 2015)

So here it is, Monday morning and since the school is open you're back. 
You did say you were going to address the questions asked of you last week. 
We're waiting for you to do so. 




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Nice generalization.
> 1.  As an "American sensei" that does teach a night class, I don't do it just for money, I don't teach "kata", and for the most part, my guys can fight.
> 
> 2.  I don't think my guys think they are bad-asses because they are in a martial arts class, but I have several guys I wouldn't want to cross if something serious was on the line.



1. I hope they fight for good. And it's nice to meet you!

2. That's good. Why aren't they teaching the classes then? J/k


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Only for the insecure, immature and clueless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would I bother? Your a founder, a supporter and a staff member. it would just be pointless.

Oh btw to prove your type (because you just did) power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. And you sir, have all the power you need here.


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So here it is, Monday morning and since the school is open you're back.
> You did say you were going to address the questions asked of you last week.
> We're waiting for you to do so.




Wow anyways. I don't claim a title I'm not. 

And don't be rude about it. Btw I think it's hilarious none of you people addressed my writings on people and kindness... Maybe because I blew you all out of the water? Affirmative.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Why would I bother? Your a founder, it would just be pointless.


2 corrections.  

1- I'm -THE- founder. #1 Super Guy.    Gawd Emperor. "The Captain". The "Dork Knight Incarcerate!" 
 Not to be confused with Soke Hong Kong Fooey.  or Leto II. He was kinda wormy. Or those pasty faced guys from DS9....though having my own army of Jem'Hadar could be interesting.....  

2- Rules here apply to everyone equally.    Been a while since I was suspended....but it's happened.

The only thing here pointless is coming onto a forum populated by professional martial arts instructors with decades of experience and asking if doing 'tough guy' antics is a good idea.  The only thing more pointless would be going onto a Mac forum and asking if switching to Windows was good.

Seriously, you asked a question. The answer was "no". What's pointless is your apparently ignoring all answers that don't validate your desired response.  Dislike this all you want. Doesn't change the validity of the statement.

*Wibble*


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Bob Hubbard said:


> 2 corrections.
> 
> 1- I'm -THE- founder. #1 Super Guy.    Gawd Emperor. "The Captain". The "Dork Knight Incarcerate!"
> Not to be confused with Soke Hong Kong Fooey.  or Leto II. He was kinda wormy. Or those pasty faced guys from DS9....though having my own army of Jem'Hadar could be interesting.....
> ...



"Adults bodies, with childish minds may never mature"


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## Zero (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Wow anyways. I don't claim a title I'm not.
> 
> And don't be rude about it. Btw I think it's hilarious none of you people addressed my writings on people and kindness... Maybe because I blew you all out of the water? Affirmative.


I really wanted to leave it alone as the rambling of a troll and I guess I am biting here but to be honest your writing as to the lovely people and kindness etc left me cold. 

Try putting yourself in the shoes of others for a change and exercising a little bit of empathy.  It is commendable you view such wonderful people as such but what makes you think they want or are interested in or even need you "protecting" them? 

Also, in not caring about yelling it out to everyone how great these people are, you might just be embarrassing and mortifying the hell out of these nice people in public or at worst making them feel somewhat uncomfortable...you seem to have good intentions in that respect but good intentions often leads to the suffering of others and then such intentions don't stack up to hill o' beans.


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## Zero (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> Wow anyways. I don't claim a title I'm not.


That's BS! You claim some title in kyudo - in fact you state sensei! I bet you couldn't fire an arrow out of your a... let alone handle a bow


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## Blindside (Jan 19, 2015)

> 2. That's good. Why aren't they teaching the classes then? J/k



They could teach in their systems, I have students who have more experience at martial arts than me, in some cases like 10 and 15 years more than me, but they are studying under me because they like what I have to offer.   And yes, I certainly learn things from them as well.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> "Adults bodies, with childish minds may never mature"


Oh Dear Goddess, I hope I never do.  Life would be so much more boring.  I've got nothing to prove though.

I'll leave the proving to the insecure folks.


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## Tez3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> 2. I have many personalities.



Perhaps one of these personalities is the 'sensei' and another one wants to go storming into Dojos. It could be quite interesting in a car crash sort of way.


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## Transk53 (Jan 19, 2015)

@nat





Nate the foreverman said:


> "Adults bodies, with childish minds may never mature"



Oi, you aving a dig at DS9 man? Seriously, grow up and stop being boring. Get a fish tank or something, or stop smoking


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## drop bear (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate. You do realise that even sparring you can get hurt confronting a quality fighter?


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## drop bear (Jan 19, 2015)

For example.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 19, 2015)

Nate the foreverman said:


> 1. American "senseis" that teach night classes and such at "dojos" is said to do it just for money and the students really don't learn anything other than katas how to loose money. I know a few people that the senseis now are a-holes and ask too much money. Are these teachers based on greed?



a) Why the scare quotes around "senseis" and "dojos"?
b) Who is it saying that the instructors are just teaching for money and the students aren't learning anything useful?
c) Since most students have work or school during the day, most martial arts classes are "night classes." Did you have some reason for specifying night classes?
d) What criteria are you using for calling instructors "a-holes" who "ask too much money"?
e) Since we have no idea what teachers you are talking about, it would be pretty silly for any of us to offer an opinion on whether they were "based on greed."



Nate the foreverman said:


> 2. Are most American students in dojos feel like they are bad-a because they are in a martial arts class?



Not in my experience. Of course, there are always exceptions.



Nate the foreverman said:


> I am American and my first lang is English. I studied old English and such which bonded with my style in saying anything.



This is old English:
HWÆT, WE GAR-DEna in geardagum,
þeodcyninga þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon!
oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
monegum mægþum meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas, syððanærest wearð
feasceaft funden; he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum weorðmyndum þah,
oð þæt him æghwylc ymbsittendra
ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan; þæt wæs god cyning!

I'm pretty certain that's not what you've studied. Even if you did, it wouldn't be helpful for communicating with anyone in this century.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Oh btw to prove your type (because you just did) power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.



So because Bob disagrees with you, you think he's corrupt? You might want to look into the definitions of words before you use them. BTW - someone who was corrupted with power would absolutely have banned you from the forum once you started insulting him for no good reason. In fact, a lot of non-corrupt folks would do the same. Bob's pretty patient.



Nate the foreverman said:


> Wow anyways. I don't claim a title I'm not.



I believe that's referring to your profile which claims you are a Kyudo sensei. Are you saying that you have those qualifications?



Nate the foreverman said:


> And don't be rude about it. Btw I think it's hilarious none of you people addressed my writings on people and kindness... Maybe because I blew you all out of the water? Affirmative.



I did, although I have no idea what you mean by "blew you all out of the water."


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Nate. You do realise that even sparring you can get hurt confronting a quality fighter?



Yes. I know what can happen. I'm not a fool. 



Transk53 said:


> @nat
> 
> Oi, you aving a dig at DS9 man? Seriously, grow up and stop being boring. Get a fish tank or something, or stop smoking



I used to be a fun guy... 



Blindside said:


> They could teach in their systems, I have students who have more experience at martial arts than me, in some cases like 10 and 15 years more than me, but they are studying under me because they like what I have to offer.   And yes, I certainly learn things from them as well.



What do you amen by "offer them"?


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## Deleted member 32980 (Jan 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> a) Why the scare quotes around "senseis" and "dojos"?
> b) Who is it saying that the instructors are just teaching for money and the students aren't learning anything useful?
> c) Since most students have work or school during the day, most martial arts classes are "night classes." Did you have some reason for specifying night classes?
> d) What criteria are you using for calling instructors "a-holes" who "ask too much money"?
> ...


I have distant relatives when you live.


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## MJS (Jan 19, 2015)

Thread locked for review.

MJS
MT Admin


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