# Poverty in the US



## Makalakumu (Feb 1, 2004)

I went to the nation's capitol this summer for the first time and I was suprised by the amount of homeless people wandering about on the capitol mall.  Some of these guys had old army tattoos and one was missing a leg.  I assume he was a veteran of some sorts.  I took a picture of him with the Washington Monument in the background.  Fitting photo considering the current state of Washington.  Veterans not are the point of this post though.  

The point is that poverty exists in the US.  Bad Poverty - people starving or freezing to death poverty.  I lived on Pine Ridge reservation for part of my life and I saw masses of people living in cardboard boxes.  This was in the middle of a South Dakota winter.  In my opinion, in a country where a fraction of the worlds population consumes so much of the worlds resources, this should not happen.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 1, 2004)

Any Ideas on how to fix it?

I am sure there are people who would like to know.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 1, 2004)

There are so many ways that this could be fixed, but the problem is that there seems to be group out there that doesn't want to fix it or doesn't care.  And then there is another group out there the believes that people will just fix out of the kindness of their hearts.  

Personally, I feel a bit dismayed at having grown up and grown through it.  I worked my butt off to change social classes and now that I'm hear, I look around and see very little interest in actually making a difference.  The funny thing is that poor people give every last scrap of anything extra they have to help others out.  While everyone else goes around buying crap they don't need...sizzle sizzle sizzle.

I think the answer here is a little socialism.  A little caring about your fellow man and a little collective sacrifice.  I'm tired of being the only guy giving blankets away in winter...


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## OULobo (Feb 2, 2004)

This was covered in an earlier post. 

While it's not always the case, it is important to remember that many homeless are mentally/emotionally disturbed and or some are seriously just lazy. I'm not trying to sound callous, but there are plenty of chances for the homeless to find a job and or get a home.


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## hardheadjarhead (Feb 2, 2004)

Years ago a guy I know commented on the street people in San Francisco.  He said, to effect, "They're bums.  They need to get jobs."  He lived in Fresno, so he really didn't see the street people.  I worked in "The Tenderloin" district, and passed them every day.

I say this without exaggeration...EVERY ONE OF THEM I saw was schizophrenic, and badly so.  Nobody is going to hire these people.

Point to note about "winos".  Alcohol reduces schizophrenic hallucinations.  Buying Thunderbird and MD 20-20 on the 1st and 15th is a way for schizophrenics on welfare to self medicate.  

BTW...this was in 1986-88.  I remember the old campaign promises of dealing with the homeless.  Nobody dealt with the homeless, apparently.  I wonder if anybody has ever catalogued major campaign promises and their outcomes?


Regards,


Steve


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 2, 2004)

Fixing it? Oh, social justice, building a society in which people don't feel so hopeless or so greedy all the time, decent support services for the insane, less callousness, a decent educational system, reasonable social support for families that does more than politicians' lip service, the, "living wage," etc. etc.

The usual stuff, I suppose.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 2, 2004)

As one who lives at or _below_ poverty level 90% of the time I feel qualified to get involved with this post. I have a modest education (up to partial college...ya ya I know, should've finished  ) anyway finding work isn't as simple as one may think. For me anyway most of the "j-o-b-s" I've had were from someone I know rather than WHAT I know. Right now I can't even get a job at a flippin Burger King and I've got roughly 15 years of managerial experience...go figgure.

Also as a person with 15 years of continual soberiety I feel I'm also qualified to respond to the comments about alcohol and alcoholism. 





> hardheadjarhead said : Point to note about "winos". Alcohol reduces schizophrenic hallucinations. Buying Thunderbird and MD 20-20 on the 1st and 15th is a way for schizophrenics on welfare to self medicate.


The so-called "winos" who drink T-bird, MD 20/20 (aka Mad Dog) and other cheap alcoholic beverages are mostly guys who have reduced (themselves) so far down in their disease of alcoholism that nothing else will suffice...also it's all they can afford. Saying they're schizophrenic and drink that crap to "self-medicate" is mis-leading (IMO) as basically they're drinking to _get away_ from themselves rather than the hallucinations they're suffering, the crap they're drinking actually causes the schizophrenic hallucinations... remember that alcohol is a drug... the base components are ether and water.  These men (and women) drink in their impoverished state because MOST of them have brought themselves to that level. 

There are also those among them who actually CHOOSE to LIVE at or below poverty level because it's less stressful for them. In simplest terms they're "taking a break" from society. Most of them would prefer to be left alone and NOT get help to better themselves.

There are also those who suffer from moderate to severe mental and emotional problems. With the EXTREME costs of medical care they simply cannot afford the help they need and thus their emotional and mental instability causes them to lose their jobs and increases (or is it decrease) their chances of (not) finding a new one and thus they're wandering the streets because their land-lords/ bankers forced them out of their homes and the shock and exposure to the often times violent world of the streets has them sinking deeper into their inner problems. Thus we get the folks pushing shopping carts full of stuff and talking to buildings. 

About fixing it? I can get on a soap-box and rant on here but I'll "try" to keep it short. Our government and would be hopefuls that promise (every four years) to reduce the homeless and increase jobs have been going on about it for years.  And we're still seeing those "bums" out on the streets.  With a politician talking I'll just keep on walking because they're just interested in appealing to the hearts of the people so they can get that cushy desk job in Washington or their home state. 

What gets me are those billionaires who give away millions of dollars to the poor in impoverished countries but don't give a dime to the poor in THIS country.  Bill Gates, Donald Trump, and the rest of the silver spoon gang just don't get it. They would come up with the excuse that it would be "enabling them (the poor in the U.S.)" if they did that.  Hmm, well guys aren't you enabling the poor in those third-world countries??  

I dunno, I don't think it would be enabling me at all by giving me 10 to 15 grand so I can pay off my bills move into a reasonable apartment and buy a decent car that'll run for more than six months to find and KEEP a decent job.  But working for minimum wage and trying to survive while trying to save up the money for all of that... I dunno. 

Charity begins at home... right here in the good ole' U.S.A. we can elect the talkers or we can elect the walkers. It's up to us.

I got more on this later but I gotta run... library computer time is up...   
:asian:


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## hardheadjarhead (Feb 3, 2004)

> Saying they're schizophrenic and drink that crap to "self-medicate" is mis-leading (IMO)



I didn't say every wino was a schizophrenic.  I said every wino I saw was a schizophrenic.   There are going to be some down and out drunks out there.

But I did err in giving the impression that all winos were schizophrenic.  Many are not.  However, some schizophrenics living on the street who don't drink might be mistaken for winos.



> Also as a person with 15 years of continual soberiety I feel I'm also qualified to respond to the comments about alcohol and alcoholism.



I've been sober since Nov. 23, 1987.  My father died of alcoholism, as did my first cousin.  My cousin's father died of complications due to it.  My grandfather was an alcoholic.  My mother was an alcoholic, my sister is still a practicing alcoholic and her daughter is a multiple substance abuser.

I had two years of graduate school studying counseling psychology with an emphasis on addictions counseling before opening my martial arts school.

Regardless of background, anybody is qualified to comment about alcohol and alcoholism.  That doesn't necessarily mean that they're _right._ 



> These men (and women) drink in their impoverished state because MOST of them have brought themselves to that level.



Most?  Can you cite data?

Schizophrenia is a heritable disease.  Without family support or managed care these people end up on the street.  The burden on families financially and emotionally is heavy.

Again, I state that all...not some...ALL of the street people I saw in San Francisco were schizophrenic.  I saw them daily.  I talked to them.  I passed them on the street.  One spat at me when he was hallucinating.  I stopped one from assaulting a woman.  One, here in town, attempted to light his tongue on fire with a lighter while I was talking with him.

They didn't bring this upon themselves.



Regards,


Steve


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## Nightingale (Feb 3, 2004)

I have two cousins (brothers who were adopted into our family) who are schizophrenic.  Their mother is also schizophrenic, although this was not known at the time they were adopted.  All three have been on and off the street.  When they're home and taking their meds, they function great, have jobs and good lives.  When they go off their meds (as almost all schizos periodically do), they end up on the street, because under current law, my family and the doctors cannot force them to take their meds if they don't want to.  For some reason, it is their right to refuse medical treatment even when they are not mentally competent to make such a decision.

Sure, some people choose to live on the street... but the vast majority are mentally ill.  Back in the earlier part of this century, these people would have been thrown into institutions.  Now, they're thrown on the street.  They don't seem much better off to me, but hey, at least the state isn't paying for their care. :shrug: 


And no, my cousins are not on public assistance.  My family takes care of their medical expenses.


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## Bester (Feb 3, 2004)

The "homeless by choice" you can't help.  They live that way by desire.

The "Homeless by chance" you may be able to help.  It requires a few things that are in -very- short supply today.
- Compassion
- Money
- Time

Most people don't want to see the homeless, don't want to take a moment to help, and most certainly don't want to "waste money on that bum.".  The government is strongly focused on 2 areas, Foreign  Policy, and Fantasy Land.  Real programs and real action domestically is something beyond the capabilities of the fascists currently in power. Poor people aren't spending money, therefore poor people are not important.
Too many rich people means the current rich are "less special", and that can't be allowed.

You want to help?  Go work at a soup kitchen, outreach program or shelter.  Do it in May, not Dec. 24th. Stop thinking you have a problem when you can't figure out what to eat.  Take 1 item, eat it, then take the other and donate it you selfish prat.

Americans have some of the largest hearts.
They are also some of the blindest, most selfish people around.


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## RCastillo (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by upnorthkyosa _
> *I went to the nation's capitol this summer for the first time and I was suprised by the amount of homeless people wandering about on the capitol mall.  Some of these guys had old army tattoos and one was missing a leg.  I assume he was a veteran of some sorts.  I took a picture of him with the Washington Monument in the background.  Fitting photo considering the current state of Washington.  Veterans not are the point of this post though.
> 
> The point is that poverty exists in the US.  Bad Poverty - people starving or freezing to death poverty.  I lived on Pine Ridge reservation for part of my life and I saw masses of people living in cardboard boxes.  This was in the middle of a South Dakota winter.  In my opinion, in a country where a fraction of the worlds population consumes so much of the worlds resources, this should not happen. *



Can do nothing about it. We're too busy supporting "the rest" of the world.


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## Cruentus (Feb 3, 2004)

So...your new to this board, and thus far I have read more then one crack on "americans". I am not insulted or anything, but...

Where exactly are you from?

PAUL


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## Bester (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *So...your new to this board, and thus far I have read more then one crack on "americans". I am not insulted or anything, but...
> 
> Where exactly are you from?
> ...



One of the hotbeds of Al Qaeda activity in the US, as announced in the State of Insanity address last year by the fasict-in-chief.

 

Famous for steel plants, stunning beach front property (mostly owned by local government and inaccessible to the general population), as well as Father Baker, who was one of the few good things about this area.

:asian: 


"I suppose there'll be a war now, hmm? All that running around and shooting at one another. You would've thought sooner or later it would go out of fashion."


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## hardheadjarhead (Feb 3, 2004)

The following concerning the homeless and schizophrenia:



> Approximately 200,000 individuals with schizophrenia or manic-depressive illness are homeless, constituting one-third of the approximately 600,000 homeless population (total homeless population statistic based on data from Department of Health and Human Services). These 200,000 individuals comprise more than the entire population of many U.S. cities, such as Hartford, Connecticut; Charleston, South Carolina; Reno, Nevada; Boise, Idaho; Scottsdale, Arizona; Orlando, Florida; Winston Salem, North Carolina; Ann Arbor, Michigan; Abilene, Texas or Topeka, Kansas.
> 
> At any given time, there are more people with untreated severe psychiatric illnesses living on Americas streets than are receiving care in hospitals. Approximately 90,000 individuals with schizophrenia or manic-depressive illness are in hospitals receiving treatment for their disease.
> 
> ...



Here is one of the sources...with some heart rending stories of mentally ill homeless people and the challenges they face.

http://www.psychlaws.org/GeneralResources/fact11.htm


Regards,


Steve


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## Cruentus (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Bester _
> *One of the hotbeds of Al Qaeda activity in the US, as announced in the State of Insanity address last year by the fasict-in-chief.
> 
> 
> ...



lol just wondering.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 3, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Most?  Can you cite data?
> Regards,
> Steve *



The only data I can cite for you is from personal experience from my time(s) on the streets amongst the homeless as one of the homeless in three different (large) cities. Having lived the life for years I can only go on what I do know from personal experience and f 2 f interaction.  Thus MOST meaning most of the people that I knew.  I've known the drunks and I've known the "psychos" and I've known the down on their lucks. 
Though it's been a while the experiences aren't easy to forget.

 :asian:


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## michaeledward (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by MACaver _
> *What gets me are those billionaires who give away millions of dollars to the poor in impoverished countries but don't give a dime to the poor in THIS country.  Bill Gates, Donald Trump, and the rest of the silver spoon gang just don't get it. They would come up with the excuse that it would be "enabling them (the poor in the U.S.)" if they did that.  Hmm, well guys aren't you enabling the poor in those third-world countries??
> 
> I got more on this later but I gotta run... library computer time is up...*



The Gates Foundation has committed $1,853,000,000.00 to education programs in the United States of America.

The Gates Foundation has committed $258,000,000.00 to over 10,000 libraries across the United States of America to connect more than 40,000 computers to the internet. (I wonder if your post came from one of those computers?) Additionally, The Gates Foundation has committed $57,000,000.00 to Canada, Mexico and Chile for similar purposes.

The Gates Foundation has committed almost $99,000,000.00 to the local communities in the Pacific Northwest (of the United States of America) in three programs promoting 'Sound Families', 'Community Grants', and 'Community Access to Technology'.

Yes, The Gates Foundation does also commit a great deal of money to programs around the world that promote health and reduce AIDS/HIV, Meningitis, Tuberculosis, and Malaria. AIDS/HIV on the continent of Africa today is perhaps the greatest health crisis in the history of the world.

It is wrong to intimate that these people "don't give a dime" to the people of this country. As education level is a primary contributing factor to the income level of the citizens, The Gates Foundation is attacking the problem at its source.

As for your personal situation, there are wonderful programs provided by most states and the federal government to assist you in 'Getting on your Feet'. If you are looking for a job microwaving hamburgers at the local BK, while you have several years of managerial experience, I would suggest you are *looking in the wrong place for a job.* Expecting some fat cat to just hand you $20,000.00 is foolish. How could we know that you would use that money responsibly? Maybe you would just use it buy some Mad Dog, and where would that get us.

Looking on the bright side, just think about all the money you are not paying in Federal Income tax. That's the beauty of a Progressive Tax structure, if you don't make any money, you don't pay any taxes. As Rush Limbaugh would say, you get to live of the teet of Government.

Peace - Mike


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## OULobo (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by michaeledward _
> *The Gates Foundation has committed $1,853,000,000.00 to education programs in the United States of America.
> 
> The Gates Foundation has committed $258,000,000.00 to over 10,000 libraries across the United States of America to connect more than 40,000 computers to the internet. (I wonder if your post came from one of those computers?) Additionally, The Gates Foundation has committed $57,000,000.00 to Canada, Mexico and Chile for similar purposes.
> ...



While I admire his charity, I have to wonder how much of this is tax refund motivated.


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## michaeledward (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *While I admire his charity, I have to wonder how much of this is tax refund motivated. *



As Bill Gates is personally worth Billions, he only draws a salary of approximately $500,000.00 (the last time I checked anyhow).

Remember, the Tax Cuts enacted by President Bush allow Stock Dividends to be taxed at 15%, rather than as regular income. If Microsoft ever choosed to pay dividends, this would be a far bigger tax break for Gates than donating a Billion or two dollars around the world.

As it is, I'm sure when Gates needs to put his hands on a couple of million dollars, he realizes this capitol through the sale of stock, which is taxed at the Long-Term Capitol Gains tax rate of 20%. Again, a far lower tax rate than he would pay if he drew a salary of four million dollars a year (which would be taxed at 35%).

Two items to help get your blood boiling. 
* The FICA taxes and Medicare taxes withheld from your paycheck every week are only paid for the first $87,000.00 of income (give or take). Which means, for Bill Gates, (assuming a $500,000.00 /year salary) does not pay those taxes on $413,000.00 of his annual salary.
* The so-called 'Death Tax' has been temporarily cut back, and is soon going to be eliminated all together. William Gates Sr. (Bill's father) is fighting hard to keep this tax in place (The Estate Tax) partly because he feels that his grandchildren should *work* for the things they achieve, rather than inherit it. As of today, Gates's 32 Billion dollar fortune would pass freely to his children. This, more than anything else, will create an aristocracy; something the United States was create in objection to.

Do a Google on Bill Gates Net Worth and enjoy the reading.

Mike


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## Makalakumu (Feb 4, 2004)

The Late Senator Paul Wellstone introduced legislation before he died that basically mandated that mental illnesses be treated the same as physical illness by the government and insurance companies.  It is my belief, that this legistlation, if it actually passes and is signed by our Son of a Bush president, would help some of the most helpless people in our society.  Unfortunately, I think this cause will die as people forget about Paul Wellstone and what he stood for.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by michaeledward _
> * Yes, The Gates Foundation does also commit a great deal of money to programs around the world that promote health and reduce AIDS/HIV, Meningitis, Tuberculosis, and Malaria. AIDS/HIV on the continent of Africa today is perhaps the greatest health crisis in the history of the world.
> 
> As for your personal situation, there are wonderful programs provided by most states and the federal government to assist you in 'Getting on your Feet'. If you are looking for a job microwaving hamburgers at the local BK, while you have several years of managerial experience, I would suggest you are looking in the wrong place for a job. Expecting some fat cat to just hand you $20,000.00 is foolish. How could we know that you would use that money responsibly? Maybe you would just use it buy some Mad Dog, and where would that get us.
> ...



Well it's good to know that I'm still ignorant of many things in the world about folks. Thanks for clairifying that info. 
It's obvious that the poverty trouble in the U.S. is so big that even Gates can't make a dent in it with his contributions. Okay. So it's up to the war-hungry guys in Washington to back off and focus here. 

Well you don't know that I wouldn't go spend that money on a bag of dope a case of beer a hooker and a great one nighter Vegas. But I can honestly attest that I do not drink, do drugs nor gamble... and I find hookers to be a waste of time and money since they don't give a darn about me or even if I'm enjoying myself with them... at least from my past experiences anyway.  
No, arbitrarily giving out money isn't the answer but knowing and making sure that the individual with his/her hand out is going to do what he/she says they're going to do with it does help. 

I've been recipient of the Government "help find a job" programmes and I do not ask for the bosses' position when I'm applying anywhere. With every company I've ever worked for I've started at the bottom and worked my way up. I tend to go faster than most when I do that.  Being a jack of all trades and a master of none it does put a damper on being more specific in my job search... but I assure you that I'm not looking in the wrong place. I apply for entry level positions when-ever possible. I believe in being realistic.

I'm just speaking for me and it's all that I can speak for. My observations and opinions are my own and I am responsible for only unto myself.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2004)

I do not like Bill Gates as a person form what I have seen him say and do in the press and in public.

Yet, he has set up this foundation and he does commit a huge amount of money to charities and resources to help others. Not trying to throw mud in his face, I wonder how much of this was due to his wife and maybe finding a different perspective to life.

I do respect his donations. I just may not like everything he says.

:asian:


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## michaeledward (Feb 4, 2004)

I don't know if Gates is a good person or a bad person. I know his company has changed the way the world works ... and I think the jury is still out on whether that is a good thing or not. I know he used to get a bad rap about not donating more of his money to charities. Yes, the Gates Foundation was not setup until after Bill and Melinda got married. Yes, there is probably a change in focus after getting married and having a couple of children.

My comments were not about Bill or Melinda specifically. They were more to counter the proposition that the rich don't do anything to alleviate the suffering and poverty in the Good Ole' US of A.

I chose the Gates Foundation, because I am familiar with their initiative to get the Libraries across America connected to the internet. I did not research what king of charitable activities are supported in the US by Warren Buffet, Steve Jobs, and the rest of the super rich in this country; but, I bet they all have similiar activities underway to support the citizens of the country in which they make most of their fortune.

I also wanted to comment on how the recent tax law changes affect these members of the 'Super Rich' society.  The tax law changes over the last three years have been a tremendous charitable gift to the members of this elite group (those with incomes greater than 3 million dollars a year). 

OK ... got to run ... got to go fix a WinTel Computer, oh, JOY!

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2004)

Mike,

I did not mean my post to be an attack on you or your comments.

I would post from what I know also.

Bill gates since his marriage and children has had less public displays of his personality. If his wife caused the change or is he did it himself, so be it. Good for him and them.

As to the donations, yes he is one of the biggest donaters through his foundation and his foundations is actively trying to make a difference.

As to everyone wanting to be _"Rich"_? I have no idea why anyone would want to be me  . It is not easy being me   :rofl:  I could not resist a little humor.


As to poverty, I think education is the most important step, in the process if we are to eliminate poverty or even seriously reduce it. Yet, we must look at our sub cultures and try to make it reasonable for people to do well in school and to succeed and to learn more. I know may teachers personally that try. I just do not think or kno how to change this attitude or way of life for some. Others try and are denied, or not given a fair chance, or they are not given proper tools, such as books, and they are lost in the system. 

I know I have no solutions.


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## michaeledward (Feb 4, 2004)

Rich ... I didn't take your post for an attack of any kind. 

I don't mean the tone of my post to sound so mean or condescending, if it does, I apologize. I know there is poverty in our society. And I think it does not need to exist to the extent that it does. I think, we the people, through our government, can enact programs that reduce poverty.

What angers me is that dollar for dollar, I get taxed more heavily than Bill Gates, or any of the super rich. I pay Social Security taxes (FICA) on every dollar I earn, but the super rich do not. (hell, even the moderately rich do not). The political spin meisters for all of the presidential candidates talk about 'Income Taxes' and how a person making $24,000 / year won't pay any income tax ... and make it sound like a big deal. That $24,000 will be subject to 'Payroll Taxes'. Which hit the lower income people hard.

One way to address the poverty in the country is to create a tax structure that provides enough money for program that do provide a social minimum. And yet, Bush still wants Stock Dividends to be TAX FREE. That's a friggin' crime.  Last year, my wife and I earned about $14.00 in stock dividends. Woo Woo 14 dollars tax free. And Bill Gates holds over 1 billion shares of MSFT stock ... if they ever pay stock dividends, Gates is going to be rolling more dough. 

OK .. enough of a rant. 

MACaver .... really, I wasn't trying to scold you earlier. I really just wanted to suggest that you look for available programs in your area, and look for the right level of work ... perhaps at this point in your career, you shouldn't be looking for 'Entry Level' work; your experience puts you beyond that.

Peace - Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2004)

> _Originally posted by michaeledward _
> *Rich ... I didn't take your post for an attack of any kind.
> 
> Peace - Mike *



Mike, I was not upset by your tone nor your words. I try to make sure I try to communicate if there is a possibility of . . . .


Peace 
:asian:


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## MisterMike (Feb 5, 2004)

Even if the tax structure was changed and people got to keep more of what they earned, does anyone think that it would matter in the long run?

Sure, if a new tax bill passes tomorrow, let's say the following happend:

Original takehome: New Takehome

24,000: 29,000
40,000: 50,000
90,000: 120,000

So all of a sudden everyone is taking home more money. Good for the short term, and on its principles, it's the right thing to do.

But don't you think that eventually the companies, state/local taxes, insurance rates will all go up because they KNOW we are all making more money. They know how much money it takes to live, and what the average family has left over.

I'm certainly no expert on economics but I think the poor would have an even tougher time at that point than the rich. It just seems the rift is always widening.


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## michaeledward (Feb 5, 2004)

MisterMike ... you raise some very good questions. Questions I hope that more people think about as we approach the Tuesday after the first Monday in November.



> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *Even if the tax structure was changed and people got to keep more of what they earned, does anyone think that it would matter in the long run?*


*

The current policies are proposing that those who get to keep more of what they earn are the 'super-rich'.  In the 1990's, if you owned stock in a company, and that company paid dividends on your shares of stock, that dividend income was taxed at the taxrate of your Adjusted Gross Income. After the Bush tax cuts (I'm not sure which round of cuts changed this rule), the dividend income is taxed at 15%. Here's how that works.

If you own, let's say 1000 shares of ADP stock (the company I work for), they pay $0.56 per share per year. You will earn $560.00 on you stock. Let's say, you and your wife file joint return and have an adjusted gross income of $100,000.00

Before: 560.00 x 25 percent tax rate = $140.00 in taxes
After :   560.00 x 15 percent tax rate = $ 84.00 in taxes

You get to keep more of your money. Great. Question, who holds most of the stock in the country. Who gets to save that $56.00 savings? People who own stock. I hope all of us do. But in order to realize that 56.00 tax benefit, you have to own $42,000.00 worth of ADP stock. 

I'm not sure that savings makes a big difference to someone who can hold 42k in stock. This tax cut benefits those who can hold stock, and a lot of it.






			Sure, if a new tax bill passes tomorrow, let's say the following happend:
Original takehome: New Takehome
24,000: 29,000
40,000: 50,000
90,000: 120,000

So all of a sudden everyone is taking home more money. Good for the short term, and on its principles, it's the right thing to do.

But don't you think that eventually the companies, state/local taxes, insurance rates will all go up because they KNOW we are all making more money. They know how much money it takes to live, and what the average family has left over.
		
Click to expand...


Here, you are assuming that entities charge for services on the ability to pay. While certainly, that is the way capitalism works, that is not the way most governments work. States and cities raise funds to pay for services. Balancing the desired/required services against the ability to raise funds is the struggle most governing bodies face annually.

I want my child to go to a good school. I want to have parks available in town in which to walk my dog, or play softball. I want to have trash picked up from my house, rather than me bringing it to the 'transfer station' or dump. For these services, I need to pay taxes to my town and state. The state is not trying to make a profit, they are trying to balance services with revenue.

As for insurance companies, and businesses of the like, they are profit making ventures. In these instances, compitition is important. A competative market place will be sure that each business venture measures its costs against the going market price for a good or service. If Liberty Mutual increases my home owners insurance rate, I can take my business to Allstate. These companies pay actuaries a lot of money to measure how risky I am to insure. Those risks should not change according to the profit margin desired by the company.

Some goods and / or services are 'natural monopolies', and should be treated as such (in my opinion). Some goods and / or services are not natural monopolies, and should be subject to the open market. (Monopolies - telephone company, cable company, electric company : Non-Monopolies - hardware store, food store, insurance)

How we, as citizens of the country, state, or municipality are taxed should not be evaluated as an 'either open market or socialist' discussion. That is why the current administration angers me so much ... it seems to be a one note program - Tax Cuts Good! (Actually two notes - Tax Cuts & Military Spending)




			I'm certainly no expert on economics but I think the poor would have an even tougher time at that point than the rich. It just seems the rift is always widening.
		
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Well certainly in the last 25 years, the rift has widened, and looks to continue widening. It is the difference between a PROGRESSIVE tax structure or a REGRESSIVE tax structure. 

Progressive taxes are paid according to the ability to pay. If you have less, you pay less. If you have more, you pay more. Some people think the 'PAY MORE' is unfair, but think of it this way; if one of the functions of government is to provide for the safety of the citizenry, those who HAVE MORE, have more that needs protecting, therefore, they should pay more for that service.

Regressive taxes require even payment. This could be a head tax. If you live in the country, you pay this tax of xxxx number of dollars. It is called a regressive tax because it is more difficult for those of a lesser income to pay. Let's posit the head tax is $1000.00 per person per year. If a person earns $10,000.00 a year, that is a 10% tax. If a person earns $100,000.00 a year, this tax is a 1% tax. If a person earns $1,000,000.00 a year, it is a 0.01% tax. Regressive taxes are wonderful if your filthy rich. (Not you - Rich). You will remember, it was Steve Forbes (the guy with the rich people magazine named after him) that proposed a 17% flat tax. He would have made out like a bandit.

OK ... I hope this wasn't too preachy. I perhaps typed it all out more to hear myself talk. But when you hear about any tax proposal, evaluate it based on how does it hit me now versus, how would it hit me if I won Powerball?


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## MA-Caver (Feb 5, 2004)

> _Originally posted by michaeledward _
> *MACaver .... really, I wasn't trying to scold you earlier. I really just wanted to suggest that you look for available programs in your area, and look for the right level of work ... perhaps at this point in your career, you shouldn't be looking for 'Entry Level' work; your experience puts you beyond that.
> Peace - Mike *



No offense taken because there was none given...  
Well as to date I've just about nearly exhausted every available state sponsored "find-a-job" programme here. There are a few other (unmentioned) factors involved that may or may not be hampering my success rate. Either way, applying for "anything I can get" doesn't work whether it'd be entry level or asst. manager or whatever. Most of the jobs I've had were from those who I knew the "hiring" person or recommended by a friend who knew the hiring person. 
My experience doesn't seem to count for nothing. 

Wait a tic... am I whining? Ahhh I'll shut up... I'll just keep trying as many different ways as I can until I succeed. 
Love to go back to school but gotta have money and to have money ya gotta work... don't cha just LOVE "catch-22's"???  :rofl:


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