# self defense?



## kid (Feb 9, 2005)

a person i know wants to join in my teachers class for self defense reasons.  is that a legit reason to want to start training in tang soo do?  in my mind i guess i think that a person needs a more open mind about martial arts.  otherwise you just won't absorb it all.  just my thoughts.



ohh and i'm a yellow belt on the forums now check it.



cause kid said so


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## Knifehand (Feb 9, 2005)

a major thing is SD is not learning combinations or Ho Sin Sul (ITF or otherwise) is all about confidence, thinking clearly, and making good choices. TSD is a great style. It isn't pressuring you to rank up... it teaches you. I've learned a lot of good moves that would help me defend myself more, but i also think clearer. 

A lot of people join MA for self defence. Its like they come for the SD, they stay for the training. They learn dedication and lot of other good qualities. I'm a TSD fan and i will alway promote TSD. but they have to find a style that suits them best. If they want to learn to defend themselves in a non-combative way, Hapkido is the way to go. If you want your *** handed to you then Muay Tai is you. 

Any Martial art will help you defend youself... but its all mental. People who want to cause you pain will cause you pain because they've told you they are going to hurt you; If you believe that, you've already lost.


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## kid (Feb 9, 2005)

true that. but what i'm saying is that you need to have an open mind in class and not think that once class is over that your gonna be able to defend yourself. sure you can have confidence but it might blind them to reality of it.  fight if you got to, not because you want to.  i invited this person to join in the class cause of three reasons first is that martial art is a experience that could last you a life time.  second i feel sorry for the reason why she wants to learn to defend herself and i beleive my bro could teach her that. third shes hot and we need a hottie in class. lol


cause kid said so


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## Zepp (Feb 10, 2005)

People have all kinds of reasons for deciding to take their first martial arts class.  In my opinion, ultimately, these reasons aren't that important.  The reasons that they choose to stay in the martial arts are much more important.


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## Knifehand (Feb 10, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> true that. but what i'm saying is that you need to have an open mind in class and not think that once class is over that your gonna be able to defend yourself. sure you can have confidence but it might blind them to reality of it. fight if you got to, not because you want to. i invited this person to join in the class cause of three reasons first is that martial art is a experience that could last you a life time. second i feel sorry for the reason why she wants to learn to defend herself and i beleive my bro could teach her that. third shes hot and we need a hottie in class. lol
> 
> 
> cause kid said so


Rock on... Those are some good reasons. It took me a kick to the face to realize that i'm not as good as i thought. I think she should take TSD. She will find her own reasons for staying. But let her try, either she will bite (figuativly speaking) or she won't. But from what i am sensing, it would be worth her time... Go for it... Tell her, "Welcome to the club" from me...


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## Brad Dunne (Feb 10, 2005)

Because the martial arts are so visable in todays society, I would break down the reasons for starting a martial art as follows;

70% start to learn Self Defense
10% start because it's something they have alsways wanted to do
15% start because their friend did
05% start to get in shape

Now once their in, a transformation takes place for some. For other's, it was just not their cup of tea. The byproducts can be life changing. Improved self discipline, improved tolerence for other's, a better understanding of what someone is truely capable of doing to other's, improved understanding of one's own body and so on. The main problem is that the majority don't stay long enough to have the transformation fully take hold. For some, it takes but a short period of time to enrich themselves. Whereas for other's, even though they have gotten to the black belt level, they have not embraced all there is to embrace. I'm sure we've all seen the person(s) test for black belt, only to disappear after it's been awarded. The true martial artist is a very small percentage of those that partake of the arts.


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## kid (Feb 10, 2005)

i suppose thats true how would she be able to find out if the cloths fit if she doesn't try them on.  and what better art to learn than the one that i'm in right?
no honestly my brother is a very good teacher and i think that he could help her out.



cause kid said so


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## Knifehand (Feb 10, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> i suppose thats true how would she be able to find out if the cloths fit if she doesn't try them on. and what better art to learn than the one that i'm in right?
> no honestly my brother is a very good teacher and i think that he could help her out.
> 
> 
> ...


Then go for it man...TSD will help her out...


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## karatekid1975 (Feb 10, 2005)

I started martial arts cause I wanted to learn self defense. 9 months into training in TSD, I had to defend myself for real. All I know, it worked. All I knew was the basics, but that's all I needed for that situation. I just wanted to throw that in there  TSD saved my butt (and training hard 5-6 days a week had something to do with it  ).


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## Knifehand (Feb 10, 2005)

karatekid1975 said:
			
		

> I started martial arts cause I wanted to learn self defense. 9 months into training in TSD, I had to defend myself for real. All I know, it worked. All I knew was the basics, but that's all I needed for that situation. I just wanted to throw that in there  TSD saved my butt (and training hard 5-6 days a week had something to do with it  ).


You're on karateforum.com aren't you... i recognize the username... TSD does rock.. its a good workout


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## kid (Feb 10, 2005)

martial arts is an awsome thing to get into. if you want to learn how to defend yourself but it goes way beyond defence and offence.  it can be something much more powerful. ( i built that up good) Its a spiritual quest my friends and its differnt for everyone.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 11, 2005)

TSD is a martial art.  One must remember that self-defense is only the martial part of martial arts.  When it comes to self-defense, our style's requirements, as taught by my teacher, form the list below.  



> A.  Striking Principles
> 
> 1.	The Golden Targets  Eyes, Throat, and Groin.
> 2.	The Three Deprivations  Sight, Breath, and Sense.
> ...



There is much more depth in our art then this...and that would be more of the art.  This is just a guide to those interested in self-defense.

upnorthkyosa


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## kid (Feb 11, 2005)

Right, self defense is such a small (but important) aspect, it seems that if thats all you want from TSD your cheating yourself out of the full experience.  Y'all feelin me?  Why do you think that we call them martial arts?  What do you call abstract paintings?  Its not only a picture, its an expression of the artist.  Now geek of a painter figured out that.  (j/k about the geek thing)  A Few really old badasks figured out along time ago that the human is the artist and the mural.  Kicking somones butt is just a bonus.  Hows my sentence structure now john. lol


cause kid said so


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## Gin-Gin (Feb 11, 2005)

Zepp said:
			
		

> People have all kinds of reasons for deciding to take their first martial arts class.  In my opinion, ultimately, these reasons aren't that important.  The reasons that they choose to stay in the martial arts are much more important.


Well said, Zepp!


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## kid (Feb 11, 2005)

Zepp is right, but i still think that with a more open mind about begining martial arts will help you understand more and better.  Its easy to think of things for only one purpous, and miss the big picture.


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## Gin-Gin (Feb 11, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> Zepp is right, but I still think that with a more open mind about begining martial arts will help you understand more and better.  It's easy to think of things for only one purpose, and miss the big picture.


Ideally that would be nice, but I think that with the popularity & saturation of Martial Arts films & schools  increasing over the past 30 yrs (at least in the the US), most people have some "preconceived notion" of what they think MA is.  IMHO, it is only those who stay with it who begin to find out what it really means, for that is part of 'the journey.' 

:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Feb 11, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> Zepp is right, but i still think that with a more open mind about begining martial arts will help you understand more and better.  Its easy to think of things for only one purpous, and miss the big picture.



Kid, you can water your garden and give it food and love, but you cannot demand that it grow.  The same is true with the martial arts.  A person can start with whatever they bring with them and the Art may or may not grow in them.  Some vines prosper and grow, some wither and die.  That is the way of things.

upnorthkyosa

PS - You need to read this post with your best Yoda voice.


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## Miles (Feb 11, 2005)

Upnorthkyosa,

 From what you posted, it appears your instructor mixes Filipino stick arts with TSD? How does that work?  Do you  have separate classes for that?

 Miles


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2005)

Miles said:
			
		

> Upnorthkyosa,
> 
> From what you posted, it appears your instructor mixes Filipino stick arts with TSD? How does that work?  Do you  have separate classes for that?
> 
> Miles





My teacher learned Tang Soo Do as it was passed down from Hwang Kee, through a set of Kodanja that felt that weapons should be incorporated at the gup level.  The learning was of a rudimentary nature.  It taught the basics.  Therefore, all cho dans under my teacher receive basic training in stick and knife.  After dan, my instructor greatly expands upon this base.  For second dan, we specialize in learning the knife.  For third dan we specialize in the stick.  As far as the Filipino feel of what we are learning, my teacher is also maestro in Arnis De Mano so this is going to color what we learn in Tang Soo Do.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 12, 2005)

I guess I wonder why it is still Tang Soo Do. I suspect that if I was in the Phillipines and started adding Pakistani wrestling the folks in the Phillipines would wonder why I continued to use the name of their art, right? So if Tang Soo Do has a particular culture and a particular heritage and you change the culture and you change the heritage how is this still Tang Soo Do? In like manner, if your teacher wants to teach Tang So Do and then wants to teach knife-fighting, and let his students take each class and mix them together on their own, why not do it that way. Why corrupt an art?  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I guess I wonder why it is still Tang Soo Do. I suspect that if I was in the Phillipines and started adding Pakistani wrestling the folks in the Phillipines would wonder why I continued to use the name of their art, right? So if Tang Soo Do has a particular culture and a particular heritage and you change the culture and you change the heritage how is this still Tang Soo Do? In like manner, if your teacher wants to teach Tang So Do and then wants to teach knife-fighting, and let his students take each class and mix them together on their own, why not do it that way. Why corrupt an art?  Thoughts?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Is the art being _corrupted _ or is it reflecting an individuals artistic expression?  

In my opinion, there are always going to be individual differences between instructors.  One of the teachers I met up where I live is a 4th dan in TSD and 2nd in chinese kempo.  His TSD, consequently, looks very Chinese.  They emphasize those characteristics.  I have trained and continue to train in Japanese arts - Shotokan and Danzen Ryu Jui jutsu.  In my dojang, my prior training colors my application of TSD.  Consequently, my students are very good at locks and throws as well as the more "traditional" stuff.

My teacher feels that his blend of Filipino techniques into TSD is appropriate.  When he began learning, the system already included them.  Then it became "standardized" and the stuff was dropped in favor of dead patterns.  My teacher feels that he is teaching a truer, more effective, version of the art.  The art that he originally learned.

From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization.  I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing.  

upnorthkyosa


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## Marginal (Feb 12, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> Zepp is right, but i still think that with a more open mind about begining martial arts will help you understand more and better.  Its easy to think of things for only one purpous, and miss the big picture.


I'm kinda curious as to what your aim was when you started training.


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## kid (Feb 13, 2005)

i just moved not to long ago, and when i did i had made some really drastic lifestyle changes.  i have basically become a completly differnt person that still thinks the same but doesn't act the same. well i knew and understood that self- discipline was something that i would need inorder to make this change possible.  Martial Arts is great way to do that and more.  So why did you join?  




cause kid said so


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## glad2bhere (Feb 13, 2005)

".....From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization. I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing...." 

Two different things. 

If *"I"* want to study a number of arts because it contributes to MY growth, so be it. What I am hearing is that a person made changes in an art and called it by the same name as though it has not been altered. If a person wants to make personal changes in what they do thats on them. But if a person wants to teach an art, then there is a requirement that they honor the methods and material that were agreed upon when the art was constituted. 

DO arts change? Certainly but the changes are slow, more evolutionary in nature. One does not get together in the blink of the eye, reconstitute an art and then call it the same thing. There are any number of disagreements in Korea itself about this having been done and that was among Koreans, focusing on a Korean art, in Korea. If THEY have reservations who are people at lesser levels and farther away to make changes and then act like the result is effectively the original, still? 
FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Miles (Feb 13, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Is the art being _corrupted _ or is it reflecting an individuals artistic expression?
> 
> In my opinion, there are always going to be individual differences between instructors. One of the teachers I met up where I live is a 4th dan in TSD and 2nd in chinese kempo. His TSD, consequently, looks very Chinese. They emphasize those characteristics. I have trained and continue to train in Japanese arts - Shotokan and Danzen Ryu Jui jutsu. In my dojang, my prior training colors my application of TSD. Consequently, my students are very good at locks and throws as well as the more "traditional" stuff.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for your answer.  I agree that the fusion of the two is not "corrupting," as that word seems too negative.  Since there were knife defenses within the art, they perhaps are being enhanced by the blend.

 Having said that, I do think there should be some "standardization" in how techniques are performed, terminology used, and curriculum to a certain extent.  However, that should be, in my opinion, a required minimum (think of it as college prerequisites) with artistic license granted if it enhances the artist's experience.

 Miles


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## Marginal (Feb 13, 2005)

kid said:
			
		

> i just moved not to long ago, and when i did i had made some really drastic lifestyle changes.  i have basically become a completly differnt person that still thinks the same but doesn't act the same. well i knew and understood that self- discipline was something that i would need inorder to make this change possible.  Martial Arts is great way to do that and more.  So why did you join?


I joined for physical fitness thinking that since I enjoyed MA related stuff, I'd probably stay interested in the training and keep working out. The campus TKD club happened to be free, so I went there. 

It worked.


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## Miles (Feb 13, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> But if a person wants to teach an art, then there is a requirement that they honor the methods and material that were agreed upon when the art was constituted.


 Who was there who remembers what was agreed upon when the art was constituted? I am being fascetious....

[QUOTE-glad2bhere]DO arts change? Certainly but the changes are slow, more evolutionary in nature. One does not get together in the blink of the eye, reconstitute an art and then call it the same thing. There are any number of disagreements in Korea itself about this having been done and that was among Koreans, focusing on a Korean art, in Korea. If THEY have reservations who are people at lesser levels and farther away to make changes and then act like the result is effectively the original, still? [/QUOTE] 
 I agree that the arts change, but don't necessarily agree that the changes are slow (but, that is a relative term, isn't it?).  Look at the evolution of Taekwondo and Hapkido in the last 1/2 century.  Neither is practiced exactly as it was in 1955. 

 Miles


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## Makalakumu (Feb 13, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ".....From the above, one can obviously see that I am not an advocate of standardization. I do not believe that an art can grow well at an individual level where every technique is controlled and everyone is forced to do the same thing...."
> 
> Two different things.
> 
> ...



Bruce, I think you misunderstand me or I am not communicating myself clearly.  My teacher (and I) still teach everything that was taught to us under the umbrella of Tang Soo Do.  THAT is our core art.  The extras round out the art...

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible.  There are a lot of politics involved.  My instructor learned from a sixth dan kodanja who learned from an eighth dan who was originally instructed by Hwang Kee (PM me if you would like names).  The Art that my instructor learned included a lot of things that were dropped after it was standardized.  The "why" these techniques were dropped is the highly political thing.  The bottom line is that the art my instructor learned is more effective  then what is taught now by the federation.  

Alongside the core TSD curriculum we are learning grappling, weapons, and internal techniques.  Furthermore, the standards for grading that my instructor learned are far more stringent then what is in place now.  For instance, it takes a minimum of *five years * to earn cho dan under my teacher.  In this respect, the art that we are learning is similar to the art that Chuck Norris learned in the 60's.

The real question becomes this, did standardization weaken the art?  In direct comparison, our schools performance at the seven state regional tournaments, is always exemplary.  I have competed in deh ryun and hyung in three of these tournaments and I have taken first place _every single time._.  In my personal competitive career, we have dominated the competition.  If anything, we are too _rough_.  Our students loose by DQ only.  

The bottom line is that I believe that we are learning a truer version of our art from my teacher.  Sometimes the effort to standardize can remove the drive for excellence by making everything the same.  I guess its kind of like comparing economic systems...Smith vs Marx.

I hope this clarifies things a little.

upnorthkyosa


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## kid (Feb 15, 2005)

hey upnorthkyosa and miles why did you join martial arts? what made you want to stick with it? and marginal glad to have one as yourself in the ranks of martial artists.


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