# Rattan vs. Hardwood vs. Wax Wood vs. Etc. (Escrima Sticks)



## chazlink

Hello All,

I have recently started training in JKD/FMA and I am having a blast. I am a bit confusted, however, on what type of escrima sticks are best for training. 

Is one better than the other for any reason? Every site I go to seems to say something different about each one. I like the look of the burned Rattan ones, and I really like some of the hard wood ones too, but do they splinter easily? And I know wax wood seems cool (I used to have a waxwood Bo staff - that thing rocked) but I am not sure if it is the best to train with. 

Can anyone shed some light? Any information that can provided would be a great help. THank you all for your time and assistance!

-chazlink


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## tshadowchaser

I'm sure you will get different answer from different posters but I like to train with Rattan ( first because I can buy it all over the internet or in almost any  martial art store)
I like hard woods for solo practice because they weigh a little more
Wax wood I like in long staffs

My favorite sticks are the ones I cut and use from the local woods and discard at the first sign of them cracking or breaking  I get to know the stick better by handling it while trimming, shaping, etc.


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## Carol

Personally I perfer rattan over hardwood for a few different reasons.  Rattan is traditional, easily available, and not as heavy as hardwood.  This makes it a little easier to train with and also makes injuries slightly less likely in case of a training "oops". 

Rattan can absorb more impact than the hardwoods, which transfer the impact in to your body.  As a result, hardwoods tend to be a bit jarring to practice with where the rattan is not.  

Hardwoods will also be a bit rougher on rattan, so a good choice may be to follow the lead of what the other students in your school are using.


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## Kenpodoc

another advantage of rattan is that it is a vine and tends to get stringy rather than chip when it breaks down.  Hardwood chips can cause eye damage as flying projectiles.  Now if what you want to do is sneak up behind someone and pop them on the head Hardwood would be the material of choice amongst (waxwood, rattan and hardwood.)

Jeff


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## chazlink

Awesome thanks for all the help guys. Some much needed and appreciated info. I think that I will go with some regular Rattan sticks to train in class with, and then grab a set of hardwoods for solo practicing...so I can get used to a heavier weight.

Plus that means I get to pick out two cool pairs of sticks 

ANyway, thanks to you all again!!!

-chazlink


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## Carol

chazlink said:


> Awesome thanks for all the help guys. Some much needed and appreciated info. I think that I will go with some regular Rattan sticks to train in class with, and then grab a set of hardwoods for solo practicing...so I can get used to a heavier weight.
> 
> Plus that means I get to pick out two cool pairs of sticks
> 
> ANyway, thanks to you all again!!!
> 
> -chazlink


 
Sounds like a good plan Chazlink!  Hope you enjoy your training, you are in for a great time


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## Dave Leverich

I think I third, or fourth, what the rest have said. One thing I would add is to NOT get the carved end rattan sticks, unless you plan on using them soley for solo practice. They will fray more and tear on the hands more than the un-carved sticks will.

I personally use all rattan, but wouldn't mind a heavier set of hardwood sticks for solo use, simply for arm conditioning.

I do find that I get to know the feel of the sticks better as I clean them, sand them, and burn them. I'm not sure if there's anything to it, but I find that time shaping them into the final product... almost spiritual. Chipping back the joints, sanding them smooth, then that time as you warm them up and being to raise the oils, the color comes out and you discover what it was meant to look like...

But then, that could just be the artist in me.


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## Flying Crane

I wouldn't recommend waxwood for this.  It is fairly tough and flexible and great for a spear or a Chinese staff, but if you are constantly striking them, they tend to splinter and shred over time.  A good hardwood would be my choice.


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## arnisador

Rattan for training!


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## shrapnel

For regular practice, rattan is good enough.  However, for solo practice I would also recommend that you get a hardwood that we call _bahi_ (made from the coconut tree or any palm tree).  Bahi is about 5x the weight of a rattan stick of the same dimensions and is extremely durable.

 Part of our conditioning exercise involves doing full power, continuous strikes on bundled rattan poles (sort of like a makiwara for arnis).  I've seen rattan sticks disintegrate after a few powerful blows but the bahi sticks we use can take the abuse easily.  Even kamagong will eventually fail under such abuse, so bahi would be the better choice.

 The other advantage of using hardwood is that it will condition your arms, particularly your wrists, so that when you pick up a blade, the weight is already comfortable.  Or, if you pick up a rattan stick, it's already light on your hands because you're used to greater weight.


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## LocknBlock

*Rattan is good for training but try to get the rattan with multi-rings say 10 or more un-peeled it is a harder rattan. It is good for training and fighting, Try using the un-peeled rattan for training, burning makes the stick harder but eventually through training the sticks will splinter and on occasion you will smell like the 'olisi' is burning. Hardwoods are also great for training, I was told that rattan shatters the bone & hardwood like kamagong breaks and cracks bone. Good training to you.*


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## Cebu West

RATTAN - It's traditional, absorbs the shock and I just love the smell of it when you get rockin.

Hardwood is durable but destroys rattan, so your training partners will not be happy. It's great for building hand speed while training solo. 
In a real fight, Absolutely.

Waxwood - sorry, but it looks weird.

Sal


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## arnisador

Cebu West said:


> Waxwood - sorry, but it looks weird.



Heh, I agree!


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## Salagubang

BAHI = for solo training
Labsica = for class training
Rattan = for Demo/Seminar


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## Robert Klampfer

LocknBlock said:


> I was told that rattan shatters the bone...[/quote]
> 
> Negative.  I've seen and experienced many full-power strikes to various parts of the body from rattan sticks.  No shattered bones or deaths to report.  Nor have I ever heard credible reports of any.  Rattan is a fibrous, flexible vine.  Technically speaking, it's not even a stick but rather, a stem.
> 
> I consider _any_ training stick to be disposable.  At some point they're going to wear out.  When it does, I throw it away and grab another from the locker.  No mourning and certainly nothing spiritual about it.  It's only a stick.
> 
> Why use rattan?  It's inexpensive, readily available, and much more safe to use in training with other people than hardwood.  Rattan will flex, or give on impact; hardwood won't.  Besides which, it's very difficult to find high-grade kamagong or bahi in the 'States nowadays.  For hardwood, I've taken to using North American hickory.
> 
> Robert


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## arnisador

Robert Klampfer said:


> LocknBlock said:
> 
> 
> 
> I consider _any_ training stick to be disposable.  At some point they're going to wear out.  When it does, I throw it away and grab another from the locker.  No mourning and certainly nothing spiritual about it.  It's only a stick.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I _try _to take this attitude, but I have one pair of rattan sticks that are past their prime but they're still my favorite...I can't give them up! I just like their feel.
Click to expand...


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## Dave Leverich

I hear you, I burn my sets each with a different feel and such, never had a pair feel exactly the same. I get kind of attached to them too.


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## Robert Klampfer

arnisador said:


> I _try _to take this attitude...


 
Do, or do not.  There is no try.
:jediduel:

Robert


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## UrBaN

What's  Labsica ?


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## Dave Leverich

First hit on google 
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/search/topic/13365-1.html


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## TheThirdAncestor

I also have a question on this subject as our school is putting together weapon demos--the demo I'm putting together is 3-sectional against double broadsword. The school has a couple of 3-sectionals but I'd like to get my own. I've seen "red oak" for $30 and have seen "burned rattan" for $40. Considering the previous posts here it would seem that the oak would be good for solo practice, and the rattan against polypropylene broadswords? In actual demo we'd likely use an aluminum 3-sectional (anybody have experience with that?)


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## Blindside

Most red oak used in weapons at this price point is crap.  Are you actually going to be hitting anything with it?  I would do the rattan just for durability and safety.

An aluminum 3 sectional sounds spendy, is it hollow?


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## Juany118

chazlink said:


> Awesome thanks for all the help guys. Some much needed and appreciated info. I think that I will go with some regular Rattan sticks to train in class with, and then grab a set of hardwoods for solo practicing...so I can get used to a heavier weight.
> 
> Plus that means I get to pick out two cool pairs of sticks
> 
> ANyway, thanks to you all again!!!
> 
> -chazlink



Might I suggest getting training swords instead?  They are more expensive than sticks but not ridiculously high either.  I only say this because, if by JKD/Kali you mean Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, the sticks are stand ins for swords.  If it is solo practice having training swords helps you to practice somethings the sticks can't really teach you, the edge orientation of the blade.  You will be surprised how this changes something as simple as doce pares.


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## Blindside

Juany118 said:


> Might I suggest getting training swords instead?  They are more expensive than sticks but not ridiculously high either.  I only say this because, if by JKD/Kali you mean Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, the sticks are stand ins for swords.  If it is solo practice having training swords helps you to practice somethings the sticks can't really teach you, the edge orientation of the blade.  You will be surprised how this changes something as simple as doce pares.



This is so important and is so often neglected.  I think rattan is so institutionalized into the arts because it is what was used historically.  A number of companies are making fairly inexpensive polymer trainers now that I really think should become the standard rather than the exception.  The aluminum trainers are nice but take more maintenance to keep burr free, the polymer ones will go for years.


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## geezer

I've been using cheap rattan from _Frank's Cane and Rush._ Usually I don't bother with curing or burning/heat treating. Use it raw, when it starts to soften and fray, tape it up tight. A $3 stick will last a long time.

Wood, Aluminum or poly trainers are great, but even the cheapies cost about ten times more than $3 sticks. At least the ones I've been able to find. At that price, sticks are still  good to start with.

Incidentally, while we do teach attention to blade orientation ...primarily since it provides a better structure for striking, I'm _personally _more focused on impact weapons. For one thing, many or most of the improvised weapons one might pick up for self defense are applied as percussive or impact weapons.

BTW has anybody noticed that this thread was started nearly ten years ago?!

@ _Blindside: _Where do you go for inexpensive trainers?


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## Juany118

geezer said:


> I've been using cheap rattan from _Frank's Cane and Rush._ Usually I don't bother with curing or burning/heat treating. Use it raw, when it starts to soften and fray, tape it up tight. A $3 stick will last a long time.
> 
> Wood, Aluminum or poly trainers are great, but even the cheapies cost about ten times more than $3 sticks. At least the ones I've been able to find. At that price, sticks are still  good to start with.
> 
> Incidentally, while we do teach attention to blade orientation ...primarily since it provides a better structure for striking, I'm _personally _more focused on impact weapons. For one thing, many or most of the improvised weapons one might pick up for self defense are applied as percussive or impact weapons.
> 
> BTW has anybody noticed that this thread was started nearly ten years ago?!
> 
> @ _Blindside: _Where do you go for inexpensive trainers?



That's why I said "not ridiculously high." I suppose however that is relative, for me dropping 60-80 for two quality trainers isn't a big expense since I know they will last a while.

Nope didn't notice the OP date, I tend to just look at the latest post dates, good eye.


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## Blindside

geezer said:


> I've been using cheap rattan from _Frank's Cane and Rush._ Usually I don't bother with curing or burning/heat treating. Use it raw, when it starts to soften and fray, tape it up tight. A $3 stick will last a long time.
> 
> Wood, Aluminum or poly trainers are great, but even the cheapies cost about ten times more than $3 sticks. At least the ones I've been able to find. At that price, sticks are still  good to start with.
> 
> Incidentally, while we do teach attention to blade orientation ...primarily since it provides a better structure for striking, I'm _personally _more focused on impact weapons. For one thing, many or most of the improvised weapons one might pick up for self defense are applied as percussive or impact weapons.
> 
> BTW has anybody noticed that this thread was started nearly ten years ago?!
> 
> @ _Blindside: _Where do you go for inexpensive trainers?



Traditional Filipino Weapons is now offering polymer trainers in the $40 range.  On a phone so I can't post a link.  

Also if you are handy you can make your own, I posted a tutorial on how to make them several years ago on a couple of sites.


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## Juany118

Blindside said:


> Traditional Filipino Weapons is now offering polymer trainers in the $40 range.  On a phone so I can't post a link.
> 
> Also if you are handy you can make your own, I posted a tutorial on how to make them several years ago on a couple of sites.



That's actually where I got my trainers.  I am also buying one of their real ginuntings this month as I just paid off the car...a little present to myself


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## Blindside

The TFW training blades: http://traditionalfilipinoweapons.com/content/shop/training-sword/

My DIY tutorial:
DIY polymer training blades


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## Argus

Depends on context, no?

Rattan has more give, and I believe rattan-on-rattan will survive better than (most) hardwoods on hardwoods, with the exception of some particularly robust, straight-grained woods, and in the context of stick fighting.

For blade trainers, wooden weapons work pretty well if properly tapered and shaped to offer the right balance and feel. Poorly made wooden blades feel and function more like clubs than swords, however.

Most importantly, though, is what you can and can't do in training with a given weapon. Rattan is not nearly as heavy or as stiff as most durable hardwoods that people advocate, and that translates to very easily broken fingers for your training partners. Something flexible, lightweight, and easy to control is best for any kind of drills, flow, or light sparring.

I also think overly heavy weapons can potentially lead to bad habits, if not repetitive strain injury. I've been on a hiatus from the martial arts for quite a while now due to RSI/tendinosis in the wrists, which make grabbing and swinging heavy things, or being disarmed/put in wristlocks a bad idea, so the little bit of practice I try doing to is with very light implements.


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## geezer

Argus said:


> I also think overly heavy weapons can potentially lead to bad habits, if not repetitive strain injury. I've been on a hiatus from the martial arts for quite a while now due to RSI/tendinosis in the wrists, which make grabbing and swinging heavy things, or being disarmed/put in wristlocks a bad idea, so the little bit of practice I try doing to is with very light implements.



This is info worth sharing. So much of the mythology of martial arts training is built on endless repetition and excessive feats of physical endurance, but the truth is that in the long run, that approach will really mess you up. As you get further along in years it's so important to train smarter rather than training more. Right now I'm also unable to train full-on due to tendinosis of my elbows (lateral epicondylosis) and an irritated achilles tendon that has given me a noticeable limp .....Gimpy Geezer.


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## DaleDugas

TheThirdAncestor said:


> I also have a question on this subject as our school is putting together weapon demos--the demo I'm putting together is 3-sectional against double broadsword. The school has a couple of 3-sectionals but I'd like to get my own. I've seen "red oak" for $30 and have seen "burned rattan" for $40. Considering the previous posts here it would seem that the oak would be good for solo practice, and the rattan against polypropylene broadswords? In actual demo we'd likely use an aluminum 3-sectional (anybody have experience with that?)



White Wax Wood 3 sectional staffs are much better than hardwoods.  Wax Wood is lighter but tougher.  Will not splinter like other hardwoods.

Ash and Hickory would be better.  Take a beating.  they make baseball bats from those woods.
​


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## TheThirdAncestor

DaleDugas said:


> White Wax Wood 3 sectional staffs are much better than hardwoods.  Wax Wood is lighter but tougher.  Will not splinter like other hardwoods.
> 
> Ash and Hickory would be better.  Take a beating.  they make baseball bats from those woods.
> ​



Thank you for your advice, it is greatly appreciated.


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## Argus

DaleDugas said:


> White Wax Wood 3 sectional staffs are much better than hardwoods.  Wax Wood is lighter but tougher.  Will not splinter like other hardwoods.
> 
> Ash and Hickory would be better.  Take a beating.  they make baseball bats from those woods.
> ​



Just noticed the question about Red Oak and such.

This is good advice. American Red Oak is pretty prone to splitting, as is white oak, though moderately less so. Japanese Oak is tighter grained and better about this, so some high quality training weapons will be made of it, but you won't find those in the $30 or $40 price range.
Hickory, Ash, and a whole slew of other hardwoods are perfectly good options as well.

More important than the species of wood, however, is the orientation of the grain in the piece and the distribution of weight. Low quality training weapons will generally be haphazard about grain direction, and will be very tip heavy near the point. Both of these qualities contribute to failure more than anything else. Even Hickory, if the grain is wavy or not oriented well, will be prone to splitting.

I've made numerous training weapons out of everything from Hickory, Maple, to Red Oak, and even Poplar. And, believe it or not, the Poplar has held up fantastically along with everything else - dents everywhere, of course, but I'd actually defy anyone to break them during normal training. They hold up to their intended purpose of very robust, light-weight training implements.

I also taper the blades distally (in thickness), which contributes both to their balance and lively feel (giving them the feel of a blade, rather than a club in the hand), reduces wrist strain for the practitioner, and furthermore makes them less prone to failure when clashing with an opposing weapon because less of the mass is out past the tip.

Quality wooden training weapons like this will almost invariably be hand made, are somewhat difficult to come by, and will be in the $80+ range, but are worth it, in my opinion. Of course, you can also make your own, but unless you're already an experienced woodworker and have a variety of hand tools, it would be far cheaper/quicker to buy a few, though not nearly as fun as making them


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## realg7

Fire hardened rattan for me

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