# You Suck At Martial Arts



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2017)

I sometimes speak with discouraged newer students.  They believe they lack natural talent, or that they are not coming along fast enough, or that they are just not 'getting it'.  They feel that they are not progressing in martial arts and that they are not going to progress.  Some of them are thinking about quitting.  I am sure some do quit, without telling anyone.  This is most unfortunate.

This is what I tell them...

In my experience, if you look around the dojo at the high-ranked students who appear to perform their exercises and kata effortlessly and well, with speed, precision, and power, what you do not see is the work that went into those capabilities.  What you do not see is that when they started, as white belts, they lacked that ability, and in fact, many of them were about as uncoordinated, inflexible, and out-of-shape as it was possible to be.  When you see a statue, you do not see the block of granite it was carved out of.

It has also been my observation that many of the most naturally-talented martial artists I have seen have quit before very long.  I never understood why, perhaps they didn't feel challenged, or perhaps they were just bored, but they didn't stick around.  When someone walks through the door and within days they are executing beautiful kicks and nice solid punches, I sigh and wonder how long it will be before they are gone.  I wish it was not the case, but this seems to be what happens quite often.

I have seen one and only one secret to martial arts success, and that is to *keep training*.  Train until it becomes a habit, and then keep training.  There is no goal, no end-date, no moment in time when you will not have to train anymore.  But don't be discouraged; good training is like a powerful drug; you'll want to train, you'll miss being away from training, you'll long to get back into action.  And this is a very good thing.

So you suck at martial arts?  You have no natural talent?  Your balance is pathetic, you have no breath control, you are stiff and uncoordinated?  That's terrific!

Go ahead and suck.  I suck too.  Everybody sucks.  The question is not whether or not we all suck, the question is what we suck at and how badly we suck.

So you see a lot of students wearing black belts and they don't seem to suck.  Trust me, they suck too.  You just don't see all their mistakes, because your eye is not accustomed to looking for the details where they reveal their suckitude to their instructors.

What matters here is that we accept that we suck.  It's OK to suck.  Be awful, be useless, embrace it!

But keep one goal.  As we train, we try to suck a little bit less each day.  Not huge strides, small gains.  It will sneak up on you, you will not notice it.  Or you may notice tiny little differences one day and go "Hmmm, I used to not be able to do that..."

So we all suck and it's OK to suck and we're going to keep sucking.

Just suck a bit less each day.

Keep training.  There is no one in the dojo who thinks you are the worst they have ever seen, because THEY were you a few short years ago.  They have the benefit of hindsight which you do not yet.

But if you keep training, one day some new student will look at you in admiration and ask you how you got to be so good, or they'll come to you and sadly confess that they don't think they are 'getting it' and want to quit, and you will have to tell them the same thing I tell you now.  You will tell them that when you started, you were not very good at it, and they won't quite believe you.

Yes, you suck.  Keep training, suck less.

And we've all got your back.  We all support you.  We all sucked just as bad if not worse than you.  And we just kept training.  All you see when you look at the dojo floor is people who sucked but kept training.

Do that, all will be well.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yes, you suck.


Well, yeah. That's true. But did you have to tell everybody? I was hoping they wouldn't notice.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)




----------



## MI_martialist (Feb 17, 2017)

I simply say...the only reason anyone is good at any of this is that they are still here.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Feb 17, 2017)

And all of the great masters both past and present , when you have the experienced eyes to see, you realize they sucks too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I sometimes speak with discouraged newer students.  They believe they lack natural talent, or that they are not coming along fast enough, or that they are just not 'getting it'.  They feel that they are not progressing in martial arts and that they are not going to progress.  Some of them are thinking about quitting.  I am sure some do quit, without telling anyone.  This is most unfortunate.
> 
> This is what I tell them...
> 
> ...


Bill, I'd like to borrow this content. Excellent words of wisdom for anyone at any point in their training. The longer you train, the more things you get to suck at.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Bill, I'd like to borrow this content. Excellent words of wisdom for anyone at any point in their training. The longer you train, the more things you get to suck at.



Feel free, brother.  I'm honored.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Feel free, brother.  I'm honored.


If I keep borrowing your content, I'm going to have to create a section on my site called, "Bill Says So".


----------



## crazydiamond (Feb 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Just suck a bit less each day.
> 
> Keep training.
> 
> Do that, all will be well.



Can I get that on a plaque ?


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 17, 2017)

Very good piece, Bill...

Building on one small bit, about wondering when the talented will quit...  Way too often, I see people who are highly talented in any endeavor, or have too much success early, give up and quit the first time that they hit a real challenge.  They've never really had to work, they've never learned how, and they discover it's not fun...

There's a real superpower out there, and, if we choose to possess it, it's available to all of us.  Perseverance.  Sticking to it.  Trying and trying again.  If you keep at something, practicing with an eye on improving, however incrementally, you will eventually improve.  Learn to love repetition.  Learn to pay attention, find the little keys that make it work, and replicate them.  Don't settle for good enough -- learn how you're supposed to do it, what it's supposed to look like, and don't stop until it's there.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Feb 17, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Very good piece, Bill...
> 
> Building on one small bit, about wondering when the talented will quit...  Way too often, I see people who are highly talented in any endeavor, or have too much success early, give up and quit the first time that they hit a real challenge.  They've never really had to work, they've never learned how, and they discover it's not fun...
> 
> There's a real superpower out there, and, if we choose to possess it, it's available to all of us.  Perseverance.  Sticking to it.  Trying and trying again.  If you keep at something, practicing with an eye on improving, however incrementally, you will eventually improve.  Learn to love repetition.  Learn to pay attention, find the little keys that make it work, and replicate them.  Don't settle for good enough -- learn how you're supposed to do it, what it's supposed to look like, and don't stop until it's there.



And if I may ... I personally believe that the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Perfect is the enemy of good - Wikipedia

Everyone wants to be perfect, of course.  But we as martial artists should accept that perfect is not achievable.  Strive to improve and be satisfied with the small improvements that occur over time.  Continue to strive, yes.  But don't beat yourself up over not progressing fast enough, or not becoming good enough.

The vast majority of people do not train martial arts of any kind.  Talented self-taught street fighters exist and they are dangerous, but they are rare.  Most people simply cannot fight.  Whether training for self-defense, tournaments, or other reasons, even a small amount of 'good' training is often more than sufficient.  Keep training, keep progressing, but realize the road never ends.


----------



## Flatfish (Feb 17, 2017)

On the bright side, I don't suck at sucking.....whoa that's a lot of suckthitude.....


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 17, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> ...
> 
> But keep one goal.  As we train, we try to suck a little bit less each day.  Not huge strides, small gains.  It will sneak up on you, you will not notice it.  Or you may notice tiny little differences one day and go "Hmmm, I used to not be able to do that..."
> ...
> ...



Very good post Bill (as usual).  Thanks. 

I might just add that when one has hit a plateau is when I think it is most important to keep training.  In my case I would even think I must not be trying to improve, because I wasn't.  Suddenly one night, I realized I had improved noticeable.  I didn't notice it in a couple of weeks, nor a month.  Just one class night, I knew I was better, and it felt so good. 

That is of course what you are saying, but I think we often forget to tell students specifically to expect plateaus along the journey.



Bill Mattocks said:


> So you suck at martial arts? You have no natural talent? Your balance is pathetic, you have no breath control, you are stiff and uncoordinated? That's terrific!



Thanks for letting me feel terrific!  You sure described me when I began studying.  And it still fits.


----------



## Steve (Feb 17, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Very good piece, Bill...
> 
> Building on one small bit, about wondering when the talented will quit...  Way too often, I see people who are highly talented in any endeavor, or have too much success early, give up and quit the first time that they hit a real challenge.  They've never really had to work, they've never learned how, and they discover it's not fun...
> 
> There's a real superpower out there, and, if we choose to possess it, it's available to all of us.  Perseverance.  Sticking to it.  Trying and trying again.  If you keep at something, practicing with an eye on improving, however incrementally, you will eventually improve.  Learn to love repetition.  Learn to pay attention, find the little keys that make it work, and replicate them.  Don't settle for good enough -- learn how you're supposed to do it, what it's supposed to look like, and don't stop until it's there.


Teaching resilience is very important, and it's something we've really dropped the ball on with many Millennials.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

Steve said:


> Teaching resilience is very important, and it's something we've really dropped the ball on with many Millennials.


Agreed. The "participation award" push that happened in so many areas turns out to have been counter-productive.


----------



## pgsmith (Feb 17, 2017)

Excellent post Bill!
I was told pretty much the same thing by one of my senior Japanese instructors quite a number of years back. These were his words and I never forgot them ...
"The hardest thing about learning any martial art is going to the dojo regularly. This is also the very thing that causes the majority of people that attempt martial arts training to fail. If a person can succeed at this one thing, everything else will take care of itself."


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 17, 2017)

I have to remind myself of this constantly. I am fully aware that I do not have the natural talent some others have - what j have accomplished happened through essentially obsessive training. However, I still suck. I see someone who is better than me and it is very obvious that they are better. But eventually I will be better than me too, just like the people who look at me and assume I don't suck will reach my level and realize just how much I sucked at that level (and how much they now suck). Very demotivating if you don't acknowledge it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 17, 2017)

Ad for why people with more natural talent end up quitting...I think it has a lot to do with them sucking. In most sporta, you can play for a bit and be around the level of the people your playing a pickup game with, and those people are probably the ones who excel in sports without too much effort. When they discover that putting a couple months into it, they're still far behind others, they figure they can leave and try a different sport where others will know just how great they are.

I don't think it's conscious, but that's my theory on why they quit.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> I have to remind myself of this constantly. I am fully aware that I do not have the natural talent some others have - what j have accomplished happened through essentially obsessive training. However, I still suck. I see someone who is better than me and it is very obvious that they are better. But eventually I will be better than me too, just like the people who look at me and assume I don't suck will reach my level and realize just how much I sucked at that level (and how much they now suck). Very demotivating if you don't acknowledge it.


I went through this last night. There's an NGA instructor in SC who has a YouTube channel. I know him fairly well (went to college with him, have trained a fair amount with him). Some of his moves are far beyond mine. His BJJ training has added some very nice transitions I wish I could steal from him (because that would be less work than developing them). But I can't, so I keep training. Damnit.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The "participation award" push that happened in so many areas turns out to have been counter-productive.



If you fight mma the looser also gets a trophy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you fight mma the looser also gets a trophy.


That may be reasonable given the work and risk necessary to step into that arena, though if I were the loser I can't say I'd want a trophy. Then again, I'm not the kind of guy who goes out for MMA, so maybe they're doing it right for their audience.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2017)

A good teacher may be hard to find. A good student is even harder to find.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> A good teacher may be hard to find. A good student is even harder to find.


Agreed. A teacher will go through typically go through dozens of students to find a good one. A student will probably go through a few teachers to find a good one.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A teacher will go through typically go through dozens of students to find a good one.


All my life, I only found one student like this long hair guy in the following clip. When he wrestled, he met the SC spirit - acted as a tiger and tried to eat his opponent alive.


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you fight mma the looser also gets a trophy.



If the looser gets a trophy, what does the tighter get?

Sorry... I couldn't help it.  One of those days for me.


----------



## kuniggety (Feb 17, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> If the looser gets a trophy, what does the tighter get?
> 
> Sorry... I couldn't help it.  One of those days for me.



A ring on their finger?


----------



## JR 137 (Feb 17, 2017)

Speaking of realizing you suck and not being able to suck less, aka plateaus, my CI gave us a speech a few times...

You may not think you're getting any better because you're not doing better sparring against the same people.  The truth is you really are improving, but that person/people you're gauging your progress against is improving too, and quite often at the same pace.  If you did a month to month time-lapse video, you'd easily see the improvement.

I also think you get to a certain level of gross improvement, and from there on the improvement is fine improvement.


----------



## Sarah Mc (Mar 1, 2019)

I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.

I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.  




Bill Mattocks said:


> So you suck at martial arts?  You have no natural talent?  Your balance is pathetic, you have no breath control, you are stiff and uncoordinated?  That's terrific!
> 
> Go ahead and suck.  I suck too.  Everybody sucks.  The question is not whether or not we all suck, the question is what we suck at and how badly we suck.
> 
> ...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 1, 2019)

Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.


Remember that you're not competing against the other people in your dojo/club. You're competing against yourself. As long as you're better than you were yesterday, or on an upwards trend, then you're golden.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2019)

Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.


Without knowing anything more about you, the fact that you searched for "sucking at martial arts" I think says something pretty positive about you. You felt you sucked, and wanted to do something about it (and that something wasn't looking for something else to do when you quit martial arts).


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 1, 2019)

Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.



And here's a little motivation for you.  Keep track of those students who progress much faster than others.  In my experience, when it comes naturally to them, they tend to quit first. I do not know why, I just know they do.  Good luck to you, keep at it!


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 1, 2019)

Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.


It is a rather literal search but you sound like my kind of person. Open and honest. I often say one of the greatest things about martial arts training is that it is a personal journey that you do in a group setting with others of a like mind. They are your martial art family so, just like any other family, there will be different kinds of motivation, and probably some condemnation. Use them all to your advantage. I think learning any MA is a longer and less obvious journey than structured education, like going to college. If you are not careful the highs and lows can really swing. That is one of the things you learn to control, over time. Use your observations of others as a measuring stick. But remember there is not a direct translation since you are a totally different person from them. I hope you don't get too discouraged, it is part of the process. If it was easy it would not be so popular. 
You didn't mention your rank but there is a very real thing I call the "green belt syndrome". A person has been working out just long enough to realize they really do not know anything. If you have the syndrome I consider it a good thing. You are aware of what is going on in yourself and others around you. It will pass. 
Keep in touch and let us know how things progress.


----------



## mrt2 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.


It shows real self awareness and courage for you to post this.  How many people who suck either don't know or don't care?  Based on what I see, quite a few actually. Not the majority, but a large contingent especially of younger students especially. 

Keep putting in the effort and I have no doubt you will get better.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 1, 2019)

Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.


Like kempodisciple said, you’re not competing against the people in class with you; you’re competing against yourself. Don’t try to outdo anyone, try to outdo yourself. Being better than you thought you can be is far more important than being better than the next guy. And while/if you’re amazed by them, if they’re human they’ve got their own insecurities and self doubt too. Everyone does. While you’re looking at them and asking yourself how you’re going to keep up, they’re looking at others and thinking the same thing.

After some time, you’ll see people who haven’t been around as long as you struggling with stuff that’s easy for you. Then you’ll look back and remember how much you struggled with it back then. That’s when you realize you’ve improved quite a bit.

But it takes time. There’s no substitute for experience.


----------



## DocWard (Mar 1, 2019)

I just found this thread and the title made me want to look at it.

There's a saying often used in the military, "Embrace the Suck." While the typical meaning is not quite on point, in that it typically is used to mean deal with or make the best of a bad situation, I believe it works.

I suck at martial arts? I will embrace the suck. Nurture it until it gets better, becomes something greater.

I've run a fair number of 5K races. I'm usually a middle of the pack type in my age group. No matter how hard I train, I'll never be a top runner. I accept that, but on occasion, I've had a bad race and been frustrated. After one particular poor showing, I was looking at the results and commented on not doing well. Another person said "Yeah, but you beat every person who sat on their couch and didn't even try." At that moment, I embraced the suck.


----------



## yak sao (Mar 2, 2019)

Yeah, maybe you do suck. But how much more would you suck if you weren't training?
And a year from now, or five years from now, are you better for doing martial arts and sucking at it than you would be if you quit altogether?


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 2, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Yeah, maybe you do suck. But how much more would you suck if you weren't training?
> And a year from now, or five years from now, are you better for doing martial arts and sucking at it than you would be if you quit altogether?


Well said. In a year or five from now, hopefully she’ll be sucking less. That’s really all any of us can hope for with our own training.


----------



## yak sao (Mar 2, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Well said. In a year or five from now, hopefully she’ll be sucking less. That’s really all any of us can hope for with our own training.



Deleted scene from _Kung Fu_ TV show:

_ Kwan Chang Caine is somewhere in the western United States. the scene finds him practicing a form near a flowing creek. he finishes the form and stares at the glistening water .
 the scene fades away as he remembers ...

 We now see the young Kwai Chang Cane sitting on a bench looking at a flowing creek . he is looking very sad . 
 the blind master Po comes walking by, using his staff to feel his way ....
_
 Master Po:  Grasshopper,  why are you so upset?

Caine:  I am very sad master because I suck at                   kung fu .

Master Po: (_smiling)  _this is a good thing

Caine:   (_looking puzzled) _ why is it good to suck                   master ? shouldn't I try to be my best?

Master Po:  young grasshopper , the first step to                       mastery, is realizing you suck.

_ The scene fades away and we now see the older Kwai Chang Caine standing there by the creek and he smiles._


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Mar 6, 2019)

Look no body suck they just need training practice and motivation if you say to a student you suck thats means the one who teaches sucks too


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 6, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Look no body suck they just need training practice and motivation if you say to a student you suck thats means the one who teaches sucks too


I just asked you this on another thread, but it fits this one too...do you read the posts you respond to? Or do you only read the titles?


----------



## gucia6 (Mar 6, 2019)

Bill Mattocks said:


> good training is like a powerful drug; you'll want to train, you'll miss being away from training, you'll long to get back into action.


this sounds so much like me... I feel sick and regretful whenever I have to miss training, for whatever reason... flu, injury, work, just the wrong day...

Great post, thanks.



Sarah Mc said:


> I'm really glad I ran a Google search that merely said, "sucking at martial arts".  This post has been so helpful.  I've been training for 5 months now.  I'm 33 years old and this is the first time in my life I have chosen to stay with something when I didn't think I was any good at it.  I think, sad as it is to say, I'm dealing with the feelings that come along with that for the first time, too - intense discouragement, fear of imminent failure, worry that it's pointless because I can't see how I'll ever get better.
> 
> I actually have gotten better.  I can see that.  But because it seems like other students are getting better much faster, I doubt that my progress is meaningful.  However, the other students all have some background in either martial arts or some kind of physical activity - I don't.  I'm learning every scrap of this for the first time, and sometimes my brain just can't process it all - all the different techniques, keeping the punches & kicks straight, teaching my body how to move - that has to take time, too.  I was starting to realize that I need to suck with abandon - just go for it.  It can't possibly be worse to suck boldly than it is to suck with fear.


Hey Sarah, great job. Keep it up.
I am late starter myself, began my adventure with MA at 34, but for me it was more the ability to stay around people than progress itself. I still suck and am so slow in "getting it", sometimes I even fail at what I already "know".


Once my instructor was explaining me the technique that I suck at big time, showing me how it should be done. Then he asked me if I see the difference. My answer was "Of course, the colour of belt". This left him speechless for a moment, and then he agreed that I just need to keep on practicing to master it.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Mar 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I just asked you this on another thread, but it fits this one too...do you read the posts you respond to? Or do you only read the titles?



I read and i respond to the title


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 7, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> I read and i respond to the title


Then you miss the purpose of the thread. For instance, this one is the exact opposite of what the title implies.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I just asked you this on another thread, but it fits this one too...do you read the posts you respond to? Or do you only read the titles?


I figured his response would be “if you don’t want to suck, take American Kenpo.”


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 7, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> I read and i respond to the title



You really should consider reading more than just the title.


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 7, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> I read and i respond to the title


To quote a wise man....


"D'oh"


----------



## DasTim (Sep 5, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I sometimes speak with discouraged newer students.  They believe they lack natural talent, or that they are not coming along fast enough, or that they are just not 'getting it'.  They feel that they are not progressing in martial arts and that they are not going to progress.  Some of them are thinking about quitting.  I am sure some do quit, without telling anyone.  This is most unfortunate.
> 
> This is what I tell them...
> 
> ...


Way back I fell in love with the martial arts and decided to take up Hapkido.  I went on average 4 times a week, sometimes 5,  and signed up for every special workshop. After a year I was still a white belt. People would join and after 3 or 4 months were asked to test for their yellow belts,  I saw this  happen over and over but I was never asked to test for my yellow. Some of the folks who started with me even got their green belt.  So at the end of the year I concluded I must truly suck at martial arts and I gave it up.  Might have been easier if the only two belts were white and black, then I could have deluded myself that I could actually learn this.  

Sadly I still love the idea of studying martial arts, but since I obviously have no aptitude for it, there is no point in taking it up again only to be reminded of how bad I am at it.  If one can't even develop the basic competency to test for yellow after 200 sessions, what is the point of continuing!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 5, 2022)

DasTim said:


> Way back I fell in love with the martial arts and decided to take up Hapkido.  I went on average 4 times a week, sometimes 5,  and signed up for every special workshop. After a year I was still a white belt. People would join and after 3 or 4 months were asked to test for their yellow belts,  I saw this  happen over and over but I was never asked to test for my yellow. Some of the folks who started with me even got their green belt.  So at the end of the year I concluded I must truly suck at martial arts and I gave it up.  Might have been easier if the only two belts were white and black, then I could have deluded myself that I could actually learn this.
> 
> Sadly I still love the idea of studying martial arts, but since I obviously have no aptitude for it, there is no point in taking it up again only to be reminded of how bad I am at it.  If one can't even develop the basic competency to test for yellow after 200 sessions, what is the point of continuing!


I'm sorry to hear you quit. I obviously don't know why you weren't promoted, but I'd like to suggest belts aren't the only, or best, reasons for training.  Did you ever ask why you weren't being promoted or what you'd need to do to be promoted?


----------



## Buka (Sep 5, 2022)

DasTim said:


> Way back I fell in love with the martial arts and decided to take up Hapkido.  I went on average 4 times a week, sometimes 5,  and signed up for every special workshop. After a year I was still a white belt. People would join and after 3 or 4 months were asked to test for their yellow belts,  I saw this  happen over and over but I was never asked to test for my yellow. Some of the folks who started with me even got their green belt.  So at the end of the year I concluded I must truly suck at martial arts and I gave it up.  Might have been easier if the only two belts were white and black, then I could have deluded myself that I could actually learn this.
> 
> Sadly I still love the idea of studying martial arts, but since I obviously have no aptitude for it, there is no point in taking it up again only to be reminded of how bad I am at it.  If one can't even develop the basic competency to test for yellow after 200 sessions, what is the point of continuing!


Welcome to MartialTalk, DasTim.

You might be reading this wrong. Maybe you have no aptitude for that particular school, but might very well have the opposite experience somewhere else. Martial Arts school are as different from each other as restaurants are different from each other.

Did you enjoy training at the Hapkido place? If you did, please don't quit because of fashionable accoutrements to the costume worn. (I probably had more fun writing that sentence than I should have)


----------



## drop bear (Sep 5, 2022)

DasTim said:


> Way back I fell in love with the martial arts and decided to take up Hapkido.  I went on average 4 times a week, sometimes 5,  and signed up for every special workshop. After a year I was still a white belt. People would join and after 3 or 4 months were asked to test for their yellow belts,  I saw this  happen over and over but I was never asked to test for my yellow. Some of the folks who started with me even got their green belt.  So at the end of the year I concluded I must truly suck at martial arts and I gave it up.  Might have been easier if the only two belts were white and black, then I could have deluded myself that I could actually learn this.
> 
> Sadly I still love the idea of studying martial arts, but since I obviously have no aptitude for it, there is no point in taking it up again only to be reminded of how bad I am at it.  If one can't even develop the basic competency to test for yellow after 200 sessions, what is the point of continuing!




Do MMA.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

DasTim said:


> Way back I fell in love with the martial arts and decided to take up Hapkido.  I went on average 4 times a week, sometimes 5,  and signed up for every special workshop. After a year I was still a white belt. People would join and after 3 or 4 months were asked to test for their yellow belts,  I saw this  happen over and over but I was never asked to test for my yellow. Some of the folks who started with me even got their green belt.  So at the end of the year I concluded I must truly suck at martial arts and I gave it up.  Might have been easier if the only two belts were white and black, then I could have deluded myself that I could actually learn this.
> 
> Sadly I still love the idea of studying martial arts, but since I obviously have no aptitude for it, there is no point in taking it up again only to be reminded of how bad I am at it.  If one can't even develop the basic competency to test for yellow after 200 sessions, what is the point of continuing!


People move at different paste, some people might improve slow at the beginning, but all of a sudden speed up.

I was one of those. I was slow for the first two years. I skip belt testing on my own. When tested for even blue belt, I was not doing well. When the teacher gave me the belt, he was saying "good job", but I knew he was just comforting me. But right after that, *Something clicked*, of cause I skip the next belt test. But when I tested for my red belt, I was doing pretty good. Let's put it this way, the opponent flew back and landed on his back from my kick during sparring. When I received my belt, my teacher had a stern look and said to the fact "ok, work harder"!!! I was happy, he meant that, not a pity talk. So don't be too hard on yourself. Happened to me. I had a mental block, and all of a sudden, I saw passed it. Before, I practice hard, but like one kick at a time. I started to put in combinations, things started flowing.

I am NOT an expert, I only had a few years. But this is my experience. I have no idea about Hapkido, I would not know where to start to talk to you about that.

Of cause, Hapkido might not be your cup of tea. Always can try other stuffs. MMA would be my first choice.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 6, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Do MMA.




Oh. And it is the system. Not the individual.


----------



## Darren (Oct 12, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I sometimes speak with discouraged newer students.  They believe they lack natural talent, or that they are not coming along fast enough, or that they are just not 'getting it'.  They feel that they are not progressing in martial arts and that they are not going to progress.  Some of them are thinking about quitting.  I am sure some do quit, without telling anyone.  This is most unfortunate.
> 
> This is what I tell them...
> 
> ...


I don’t like this!!! I love this!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## vic (Oct 12, 2022)

The same can be said for just about any activity - chess, soccer, piano, painting, knitting, etc.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 12, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Oh. And it is the system. Not the individual.


It's both.

Obvious, dude.  Superposition.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

I think martial arts are probably the most difficult skills to acquire. They involve mind, body and spirit in unique and  substantial proportions. As a consequence the drop-out rate is high and before that happens, the drop-outee will not be poor.  🤔 What was the question…?


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I think martial arts are probably the most difficult skills to acquire. They involve mind, body and spirit in unique and  substantial proportions. As a consequence the drop-out rate is high and before that happens, the drop-outee will not be poor.  🤔 What was the question…?


Probably because most beginners are only interested in physical skills, self defense. 




Gyakuto said:


> What was the question…?


You really are pike 🤣


----------



## Darren (Oct 13, 2022)

I was told I could never ever do martial arts!! I had no natural abilities except good eye hand coordination, in the 7th grade I tried out for track took me 5 minutes to run 1/4 mile(never could run without falling) I have a lot of minor disabilities there are things that my past and present instructors did not want me to do because of my balance but I got better in time when first starting in the arts I would fall all over the place, remember sparring once even after being in for about two years I threw a round house kick and fell what on my face(how are you floor!) fell right on top of my classmate once! People often believe I am drunk or on something because of my mild cerebral palsy and bad equilibrium till they get to know me. Just don’t ever ever give up never!!


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I think martial arts are probably the most difficult skills to acquire.


You think so?  I don't think it's any harder than any other complex skill set.  

Personally, I think the undue focus in some arts on non-physical skills is what gums up the works.  There is a natural progression of development in any complex skill set, and when you try to do things out of order it stunts the process.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> You think so?  I don't think it's any harder than any other complex skill set.
> 
> Personally, I think the undue focus in some arts on non-physical skills is what gums up the works.  There is a natural progression of development in any complex skill set, and when you try to do things out of order it stunts the process.


I don't even think they're that complex, martial arts.

"Skill set".  Like, how useful is a martial artist, anyway.  Pretty useless, _if you ask me.  _

Fixing a plumbing fixture, now there's a complex skill set.  I'm trying to replace a soap dispenser right now, which seems impossible because the flange is stuck to the sink.  I might need to cut...that's a skill set.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Like, how useful is a martial artist, anyway. Pretty useless, _if you ask me._


some of the traditional ones. 




Steve said:


> Personally, I think the undue focus in some arts on non-physical skills is what gums up the works.


yeah...


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> some of the traditional ones.


In my experience a lot of MMA people are pretty useless outside of the gym, too.

Lots of idiots with a "I WANT TO LEARN TO FIGHT" mentality, can't even clean their own rooms.

Even their cars are full of junk, they think training in an MMA gym is going to fix their situation.  Sorry, that was just in a movie once.  Hehe, Tom Hardy.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In my experience a lot of MMA people are pretty useless outside of the gym, too.
> 
> Lots of idiots with a "I WANT TO LEARN TO FIGHT" mentality, can't even clean their own rooms.
> 
> Even their cars are full of junk, they think training in an MMA gym is going to fix their situation.  Sorry, that was just in a movie once.  Hehe, Tom Hardy.


my opinion has always been..you are "Game" or not in a real situation.  no teacher, Sifu, Sensei or whatever can give you some balls needed in a real fight. It´s down to you.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In my experience a lot of MMA people are pretty useless outside of the gym, too.
> 
> Lots of idiots with a "I WANT TO LEARN TO FIGHT" mentality, can't even clean their own rooms.
> 
> Even their cars are full of junk, they think training in an MMA gym is going to fix their situation.  Sorry, that was just in a movie once.  Hehe, Tom Hardy.


Nearly every martial artist I know has a job outside MA. You seem to want to evaluate MA skills compared to trade skills, but that's like comparing piano playing to trade skills.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Nearly every martial artist I know has a job outside MA. You seem to want to evaluate MA skills compared to trade skills, but that's like comparing piano playing to trade skills.


As a martial artist and musician, I guess I agree.

But I still think martial arts skills are relatively useless, even compared to being able to read or play music.  There's no real practical application for them except in rare circumstances.  Most people will never be in a fight in their whole lives, and the few that do can't realistically expect their martial arts training to be a huge factor, especially when guns, police, and other real world violence stuff is factored in.

And when you also factor in the sheer amount of time people invest in martial arts...I mean if you learn to walk tall and have inner peace and all, excellent.  But there are diminishing returns, especially in the MMA/full contact sphere.  All these black belts that spent all that time ranking up, what exactly did they get for it?  Don't know, never had a black belt.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> You think so?  I don't think it's any harder than any other complex skill set.


Yes, that’s why there are so few of us compared with players of, say, football, basketball, badminton, athletics, tiddly-winks…ok…maybe not tiddly-winks. _We_ may think they’re relatively easy because we’re a group of self-selecting good martial artists on a MA discussion board, probably with high ranks!


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> As a martial artist and musician, I guess I agree.
> 
> But I still think martial arts skills are relatively useless, even compared to being able to read or play music.  There's no real practical application for them except in rare circumstances.  Most people will never be in a fight in their whole lives, and the few that do can't realistically expect their martial arts training to be a huge factor, especially when guns, police, and other real world violence stuff is factored in.
> 
> And when you also factor in the sheer amount of time people invest in martial arts...I mean if you learn to walk tall and have inner peace and all, excellent.  But there are diminishing returns, especially in the MMA/full contact sphere.  All these black belts that spent all that time ranking up, what exactly did they get for it?  Don't know, never had a black belt.


Martial arts…useless?!😡 How very dare….Yes, I agree 😀 It’s a pastime, a bit of fun with a few positive side-effects. _We_ may take it a bit too seriously, because we don’t have girlfriends/boyfriends and lives, but compared with, say experts in tiddly-winks…🤔

When I occasionally meet people who think they’re ‘modern day samurai’, upholders of Bushido, or similar, a brief conversation reveals, more often than not, a somewhat childish personality, obsessed with a fantasy. If it wasn’t martial arts, it’d be Star Wars!


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes, that’s why there are so few of us compared with players of, say, football, basketball, badminton, athletics, tiddly-winks…ok…maybe not tiddly-winks. _We_ may think they’re relatively easy because we’re a group of self-selecting good martial artists on a MA discussion board, probably with high ranks!


If you're suggesting that the training model is counter-intuitive on purpose as a sort of filtering out mechanism, I guess I can see it.  But I think it's much more likely that it's just misguided training that stems from a lack of more practical, measurable goals.  

Said the other way around, where there are practical, well defined, and measurable goals, there is no shortage of participation and expertise.  The styles that are the most popular are the ones that have a competitive outlet, and in those styles the path to expertise is very predictable.  And in these styles, there is no shortage of martial artists.  Boxing, wrestling, TKD, judo, BJJ, MMA... a lot of people train in these arts.  

Lastly, the spiritual stuff... the character stuff... that comes from participating in activities that are challenging with a good coach.  For example, kids who play football learn to play football.  And through that, they learn resilience and work ethic. They also learn, if the coach is worth his/her salt, sportsmanship, respect, and a host of other positive traits.  Point is, this isn't unique to Martial Arts.  Rather, Martial Arts tends to overemphasize it when the style lacks practical, measurable goals.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> As a martial artist and musician, I guess I agree.
> 
> But I still think martial arts skills are relatively useless, even compared to being able to read or play music.  There's no real practical application for them except in rare circumstances.  Most people will never be in a fight in their whole lives, and the few that do can't realistically expect their martial arts training to be a huge factor, especially when guns, police, and other real world violence stuff is factored in.
> 
> And when you also factor in the sheer amount of time people invest in martial arts...I mean if you learn to walk tall and have inner peace and all, excellent.  But there are diminishing returns, especially in the MMA/full contact sphere.  All these black belts that spent all that time ranking up, what exactly did they get for it?  Don't know, never had a black belt.


Some truth to this. 



Gyakuto said:


> Martial arts…useless?!😡 How very dare….Yes, I agree 😀 It’s a pastime, a bit of fun with a few positive side-effects. _We_ may take it a bit too seriously, because we don’t have girlfriends/boyfriends and lives, but compared with, say experts in tiddly-winks…🤔
> 
> When I occasionally meet people who think they’re ‘modern day samurai’, upholders of Bushido, or similar, a brief conversation reveals, more often than not, a somewhat childish personality, obsessed with a fantasy. If it wasn’t martial arts, it’d be Star Wars!


Oof.  There was a dude who used to post around here a lot who immediately came to mind.  I don't think he would agree with the characterization, but if the robe fits.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> , but if the robe fits.


😂🤣


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Lastly, the spiritual stuff... the character stuff... that comes from participating in activities that are challenging with a good coach.  For example, kids who play football learn to play football.  And through that, they learn resilience and work ethic. They also learn, if the coach is worth his/her salt, sportsmanship, respect, and a host of other positive traits.  Point is, this isn't unique to Martial Arts.  Rather, Martial Arts tends to overemphasize it when the style lacks practical, measurable goals.


I’m sure I’ve said this before, but some of the most odious, petty, obnoxious, arrogant people I’ve ever met have been high-grade martial artists…and I used to be a magistrate!


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Speaking of robes...does anyone else get Facebook spam for fancy, expensive dusters that people claim "make them feel like a Jedi"?

I'm not sure if the AI is pushing these to me because of Star Wars, martial arts, Chan, or something insidious like the fact that I actually like wearing dusters..


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

What’s a duster?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> What’s a duster?


Standard cowboy gear.  

As Western as whiskey.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> You think so?  I don't think it's any harder than any other complex skill set.
> 
> Personally, I think the undue focus in some arts on non-physical skills is what gums up the works.  There is a natural progression of development in any complex skill set, and when you try to do things out of order it stunts the process.


What non physical skills are you referring to? I’m trying to think of a non physical martial art skill.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> my opinion has always been..you are "Game" or not in a real situation.  no teacher, Sifu, Sensei or whatever can give you some balls needed in a real fight. It´s down to you.


So it’s the individual, not the system?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> So it’s the individual, not the system?



Depends on the system. Learn from a reputable boxing coach and gym for example, and you have the potential to be a killer.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> So it’s the individual, not the system?


I think so, some people will just never be a Lion 😁


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Standard cowboy gear.
> 
> As Western as whiskey.


Oh I see! A duster in England is a cloth used for removing dust from surfaces in ones house!


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)




----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Oh I see! A duster in England is a cloth used for removing dust from surfaces in ones house!


I'll post a pic of these ridiculous overpriced things.

Nothing like seeing some city slicker in an ad for a $300 riding coat that isn't even leather.  Hee haw.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 13, 2022)

In lockdown, when I was bored…I errr…bought one of these…..capes 🙄


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Depends on the system. Learn from a reputable boxing coach and gym for example, and you have the potential to be a killer.


But, but, I don’t want be a killer coach…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Depends on the system. Learn from a reputable boxing coach and gym for example, and you have the potential to be a killer.


I’m just playing because some people think that as great as Cus D’Amato was, he could turn anyone into Tyson with the right system. I just think that’s a lot of hooey. Same with BJJ MMA TMA etc. All the ingredients count in a recipe. Garbage in, garbage out. Good healthy, hard working, guy with a good coach and a legit training method over a period of time can make a skilled fighter. Remove any one of those elements and the chances of a skilled fighter being the product goes down. Not everything can be taught.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I think so, some people will just never be a Lion 😁


True that, not everything can be taught.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> View attachment 29121


How much for the pet dragon?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I'll post a pic of these ridiculous overpriced things.
> 
> Nothing like seeing some city slicker in an ad for a $300 riding coat that isn't even leather.  Hee haw.


We call that “all hat and no cattle.”


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We call that “all hat and no cattle.”


Ridiculous.









						KAIROS DUSTER
					

Discover your new favorite Kairos Duster coat, so soft & comfortable. Shop sustainable fashion - men's & women's luxury clothing made from soft natural regenerative tree fiber fabric that feels like Nature's cashmere.




					onegoldenthread.com
				




Am I supposed to be impressed?  The knit on these things is atrocious.

$333?  Some robot came up with that number...no human being prices things that way.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

You too can be the lead singer of Duran Duran.

*

*


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

IF you like the Cenobite look, there's this stuff.  How it finds me, I don't know but at least it's better than the political ads I'm also getting spammed with.


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What non physical skills are you referring to? I’m trying to think of a non physical martial art skill.


I said skills, but really meant more like traits... things like respect, resilience, honor, integrity, etc.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> As a martial artist and musician, I guess I agree.
> 
> But I still think martial arts skills are relatively useless, even compared to being able to read or play music.  There's no real practical application for them except in rare circumstances.  Most people will never be in a fight in their whole lives, and the few that do can't realistically expect their martial arts training to be a huge factor, especially when guns, police, and other real world violence stuff is factored in.
> 
> And when you also factor in the sheer amount of time people invest in martial arts...I mean if you learn to walk tall and have inner peace and all, excellent.  But there are diminishing returns, especially in the MMA/full contact sphere.  All these black belts that spent all that time ranking up, what exactly did they get for it?  Don't know, never had a black belt.


You underestimate the value of physical exercise, purposeful skill development, goal pursuit, and other things that are part of most martial art (and other) training.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Yes, that’s why there are so few of us compared with players of, say, football, basketball, badminton, athletics, tiddly-winks…ok…maybe not tiddly-winks. _We_ may think they’re relatively easy because we’re a group of self-selecting good martial artists on a MA discussion board, probably with high ranks!


I don’t think basic MA skills are harder than, say, tennis fundamentals.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I think so, some people will just never be a Lion 😁


That definition applies in the States, as well.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ridiculous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Obi Wan Kielbasa


----------



## Steve (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Obi Wan Kielbasa


That site is a trip.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You underestimate the value of physical exercise, purposeful skill development, goal pursuit, and other things that are part of most martial art (and other) training.


I don't think most martial artists get the physical exercise part right.  

Which has to make you wonder, why some people put so much effort into obtaining colored belts, and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.

I'd recommend Yoga or Pilates to somebody before I'd ever recommend an Asian fighting art.  Maybe Qigong if they were ready.

Why do you think that is?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> That site is a trip.


Right?  

I can buy this off Amazon for half the price..


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That definition applies in the States, as well.


I'm a Bull Gerry..._A raging Bull 😆_


----------



## Hyoho (Oct 14, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I sometimes speak with discouraged newer students.  They believe they lack natural talent, or that they are not coming along fast enough, or that they are just not 'getting it'.  They feel that they are not progressing in martial arts and that they are not going to progress.  Some of them are thinking about quitting.  I am sure some do quit, without telling anyone.  This is most unfortunate.
> 
> This is what I tell them...
> 
> ...


We are supposed to do our arts because as a famous mentor told me, "Love your way, if you don't love it dont do it" All members make up a working dojo and contribute in some way. What probably differs in the West is that in Japan it is a community activity that make it what it is, as is everything else.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Right?
> 
> I can buy this off Amazon for half the price..
> 
> View attachment 29133


I had a Starsky cardigan in the 70s! 🤩


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't think most martial artists get the physical exercise part right.
> 
> Which has to make you wonder, why some people put so much effort into obtaining colored belts, and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.
> 
> ...


When I see ‘koroddy masters’ on youtube, in coloured keikogi covered in patches and red and white belts, they are invariably obese and look as though a 60 second free-spar would cause cardiac arrest (I have a mental image of that Dilman character with his enormous belly!). It does seem strange that a predominantly physical art is peppered with such unfit practitioners. Is this the case in sports?


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> How much for the pet dragon?


It’s not a dragon…it’s an ugly Dachshund 😑


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m just playing because some people think that as great as Cus D’Amato was, he could turn anyone into Tyson with the right system. I just think that’s a lot of hooey. Same with BJJ MMA TMA etc. All the ingredients count in a recipe. Garbage in, garbage out. Good healthy, hard working, guy with a good coach and a legit training method over a period of time can make a skilled fighter. Remove any one of those elements and the chances of a skilled fighter being the product goes down. Not everything can be taught.


It's not a binary thing. Of course not everyone can be a Tyson. Not everyone can be one of the best in the world at whatever activity they participate in, even with the best coaches and the best system.

But anyone who is willing to put in hard work with a good coach can get to be a lot better than they would have been without doing that effort. In fact, they can usually get to be significantly better than much more naturally talented people who haven't done that training.


----------



## Darksoul (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> IF you like the Cenobite look, there's this stuff.  How it finds me, I don't know but at least it's better than the political ads I'm also getting spammed with.
> 
> View attachment 29132


I'm not an elder goth but I have been at it awhile, and frankly this stuff generally only appeals to a younger crowd. The rest of us got our gear at local shops and Salvation Armani, military surplus stores lol.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Darksoul said:


> I'm not an elder goth but I have been at it awhile, and frankly this stuff generally only appeals to a younger crowd. The rest of us got our gear at local shops and Salvation Armani, military surplus stores lol.


when i was about 14 i had my hair spiked up with vaseline..haha  didn´t have any fancy gels or at least have money for it.  It´s probably why i´m half bald now ..just shave it with an electric razor now


----------



## Darksoul (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> when i was about 14 i had my hair spiked up with vaseline..haha  didn´t have any fancy gels or at least have money for it.  It´s probably why i´m half bald now ..just shave it with an electric razor now


I never had super long hair but I've kept it pretty short for the last 20 plus years. Gets to be an inch long and it bothers me. Guess I'll never have those flowing locks you see in the movies. lol


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Darksoul said:


> I never had super long hair but I've kept it pretty short for the last 20 plus years. Gets to be an inch long and it bothers me. Guess I'll never have those flowing locks you see in the movies. lol


i had hair like Elvis until i was about 34. Don´t care as i´ve had women say my head is nice shaped & suits it. find it sexy.  you know they love a man´s man. A raging Bull


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> I said skills, but really meant more like traits... things like respect, resilience, honor, integrity, etc.


Oh, thats stuff their parents should have taught. 
. I teach Gung fu to adults interested in training hard. If respect and integrity are things they are striving to learn as adults, then I’m not the right teacher for them.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> That site is a trip.


Not my thing. Funny though.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't think most martial artists get the physical exercise part right.
> 
> Which has to make you wonder, why some people put so much effort into obtaining colored belts, and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.
> 
> ...


I agree, most of the TMA I have seen around here is lacking any real exercise in the training. Soft and collapsed. I can walk through most of them with little effort. They have no shame.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It’s not a dragon…it’s an ugly Dachshund 😑


My, what big teeth you have…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's not a binary thing. Of course not everyone can be a Tyson. Not everyone can be one of the best in the world at whatever activity they participate in, even with the best coaches and the best system.
> 
> But anyone who is willing to put in hard work with a good coach can get to be a lot better than they would have been without doing that effort. In fact, they can usually get to be significantly better than much more naturally talented people who haven't done that training.


I agree with you wholeheartedly.


Tony Dismukes said:


> It's not a binary thing. Of course not everyone can be a Tyson. Not everyone can be one of the best in the world at whatever activity they participate in, even with the best coaches and the best system.
> 
> But anyone who is willing to put in hard work with a good coach can get to be a lot better than they would have been without doing that effort. In fact, they can usually get to be significantly better than much more naturally talented people who haven't done that training.


I’m a perfect example, I’m not as naturally gifted as some of my training brothers but I work harder than all of them. I dont know as many forms as they do but I’m a far more capable fighter than most of them.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> when i was about 14 i had my hair spiked up with vaseline..haha  didn´t have any fancy gels or at least have money for it.  It´s probably why i´m half bald now ..just shave it with an electric razor now


Vaseline? Gross. I used Knox unflavored gelatin to put my Mohawk or liberty spikes up in the 80s. They didn’t have blue hair dye then, I used blue stamp pad ink.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh, thats stuff their parents should have taught.
> . I teach Gung fu to adults interested in training hard. If respect and integrity are things they are striving to learn as adults, then I’m not the right teacher for them.


Yes, I think this is the parent’s and school teacher’s place.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I used blue stamp pad ink.


i used in my first experiment food colouring  was like that then.  With the vaseline i only used enough to spike it.  used it only on my head too


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

the best band






my favourit album... 

i remember listening to the first song Tank. "Drive my very own Tank & shoot an SLR"  little did i know in a short time i would..


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I don't think most martial artists get the physical exercise part right.
> 
> Which has to make you wonder, why some people put so much effort into obtaining colored belts, and can't fight their way out of a paper bag.
> 
> ...


Any vigorous physical activity is exercise. And the working toward goals is an important thing for some folks, regardless of the goal, itself. 

You just seem to want to complain in the most general terms, without any real basis for discussion.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> When I see ‘koroddy masters’ on youtube, in coloured keikogi covered in patches and red and white belts, they are invariably obese and look as though a 60 second free-spar would cause cardiac arrest (I have a mental image of that Dilman character with his enormous belly!). It does seem strange that a predominantly physical art is peppered with such unfit practitioners. Is this the case in sports?


Beyond a certain age, it gets progressively harder to maintain a slim figure for some folks. That has little to do with whether they can teach.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

Darksoul said:


> I'm not an elder goth but I have been at it awhile, and frankly this stuff generally only appeals to a younger crowd. The rest of us got our gear at local shops and Salvation Armani, military surplus stores lol.


I want to shop at Salvation Armani.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Oh, thats stuff their parents should have taught.
> . I teach Gung fu to adults interested in training hard. If respect and integrity are things they are striving to learn as adults, then I’m not the right teacher for them.


While those are concepts you’d hope adults know, they can still be reinforced at any age. I’m not sure the “traditional “ (in the US) MA approach is particularly good for that.


----------



## Darksoul (Oct 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I want to shop at Salvation Armani.


There or Goodwill, or the V.O.A. Sometimes the hunt is more important than the purchase.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 14, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> I had a Starsky cardigan in the 70s! 🤩


One of the best inside jokes from The Big Lebowski.

Ace detective.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Any vigorous physical activity is exercise. And the working toward goals is an important thing for some folks, regardless of the goal, itself.
> 
> You just seem to want to complain in the most general terms, without any real basis for discussion.


Yeah but there are definitely different levels. 

That's why you don't "know" kung fu, or "know" boxing; you keep at it.  Which, in the belt granting world means something very different than actual progression, and why we live in a world full of black belts that are, to be honest, terrible at martial arts but talk a lot, while legions of  sports people actually train in hand to hand combat (and get told off by those same "street rules" black belts).

I'd even argue that the entire BJJ phenomenon is more or less a reaction to this.  A bunch of guys that were really, really into Judo and Vale Tudo saw the world filling up with kids imagining they are masters and getting black belts young.

There's keeping it real, and not, and I think we can both agree the vast majority out there do not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yeah but there are definitely different levels.
> 
> That's why you don't "know" kung fu, or "know" boxing; you keep at it.  Which, in the belt granting world means something very different than actual progression, and why we live in a world full of black belts that are, to be honest, terrible at martial arts but talk a lot, while legions of  sports people actually train in hand to hand combat (and get told off by those same "street rules" black belts).
> 
> ...


You are going back to the point about fight effectiveness, which is a different discussion (and something that’s less important to the average student).

And yes, there are of course different levels of exertion. This is true in literally any physical pursuit. There are folks who play soccer without much vigor, and those who do give same level of effort while splitting firewood. You get out what you put in, more or less.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 14, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You are going back to the point about fight effectiveness, which is a different discussion (and something that’s less important to the average student).
> 
> And yes, there are of course different levels of exertion. This is true in literally any physical pursuit. There are folks who play soccer without much vigor, and those who do give same level of effort while splitting firewood. You get out what you put in, more or less.


Hmm...so what is a black belt who can't fight effective at, if you had to sum it up in one word?

I think someone else asked that question earlier in the thread, what's the point then?  

Discipline?  that I can get into.  That's a big part of what I get out of it, anyway.  Doesn't require a belt though.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Hmm...so what is a black belt who can't fight effective at, if you had to sum it up in one word?
> 
> I think someone else asked that question earlier in the thread, what's the point then?
> 
> Discipline?  that I can get into.  That's a big part of what I get out of it, anyway.  Doesn't require a belt though.


I can mete out discipline with a belt. I’m a connoisseur of belt discipline, as I have sampled the best belts my pop had to offer.


----------



## Steve (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Yeah but there are definitely different levels.
> 
> That's why you don't "know" kung fu, or "know" boxing; you keep at it.  Which, in the belt granting world means something very different than actual progression, and why we live in a world full of black belts that are, to be honest, terrible at martial arts but talk a lot, while legions of  sports people actually train in hand to hand combat (and get told off by those same "street rules" black belts).
> 
> ...


It’s been like 30 years.  Is BJJ still a phenomenon?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Hmm...so what is a black belt who can't fight effective at, if you had to sum it up in one word?


That’ll depend on a lot not in evidence in that question. Maybe much, maybe not much. Because it’s a person. 

Let’s remember that BB isn’t a “mastery” rank in a lot of organizations, so they aren’t expecting so much. 


Oily Dragon said:


> I think someone else asked that question earlier in the thread, what's the point then?
> 
> Discipline?  that I can get into.  That's a big part of what I get out of it, anyway.  Doesn't require a belt though.


For a lot of folks, fitness, fun, community, something to work on…


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Oct 14, 2022)

I think some people quit because they lost interest in the arts and they say they lack and they are not doing good in karate thats their problem but instead of saying its your fault your not practicing give them encouragement saying you can do this you got this al you need is practice practice and you will be good at it


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> It’s been like 30 years.  Is BJJ still a phenomenon?


I think so, in the literal sense.  And I'm talking a lot further back than UFC1.  By "bunch of Judo guys", I meant Royce's ancestors.  Especially the spiritual ones.

Otherwise BJJ would be dead, like Sanskrit.

Phenomenology.


----------



## drop bear (Oct 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> It’s been like 30 years.  Is BJJ still a phenomenon?



More like a fad


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

drop bear said:


> More like a fad


Like Star Wars.


__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/PrequelMemes/comments/y3i13m


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> More like a fad


A passing fancy.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Otherwise BJJ would be dead, like Sanskrit.


<gasp> my favourite sloka is best heard in Sanskrit!

śāntākāraṃ bhujagaśayanaṃ padmanābhaṃ sureśaṃ
viśvādhāraṃ gaganasadṛśaṃ meghavarṇa śubhāṅgam .
lakṣmīkāntaṃ kamalanayanaṃ yogibhirdhyānagamyam
vande viṣṇuṃ bhavabhayaharaṃ sarvalokaikanātham ..


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> <gasp> my favourite sloka is best heard in Sanskrit!
> 
> śāntākāraṃ bhujagaśayanaṃ padmanābhaṃ sureśaṃ
> viśvādhāraṃ gaganasadṛśaṃ meghavarṇa śubhāṅgam .
> ...


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 17, 2022)

I‘m not sure it was ever a living language, perhaps only used by clerics for purposes of Hinduism. It is rather beautiful, though. Now you can sing along with the above liberetto


----------

