# Aikido and other arts



## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Do you train Aikido with other arts to make it work on the streets?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

I don’t train aikido, but I will just make an observation.  

In modern times it is extremely common that people have trained in more than one system, even if only for a brief time before moving on.  If someone trained in karate, for example, and then abandoned it for aikido, then Likely that karate training continues to influence how his aikido is done, even if unintentional.  Everything that we have done, affects all that we do, in some way.

So really, the only people who could completely answer “no” would be those who have only ever trained aikido.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Another observation of mine:  do people really think to themselves, “I’m training this thing that simply does not work, so I’m going to go cross-train in something else that does work, that I can then use to fix and make this non-working thing work…”

If someone really felt that what they trained does not work, and they want to train in something that they can make work, would they not simply abandon it and go train something else altogether, perhaps whatever they might have cross-trained and then used to fix it?

It just seems like a lot of mental (and physical) gymnastics to go through to justify continuing to do something, if you simply do not believe in it to begin with.


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Another observation of mine:  do people really think to themselves, “I’m training this thing that simply does not work, so I’m going to go cross-train in something else that does work, that I can then use to fix and make this non-working thing work…”
> 
> If someone really felt that what they trained does not work, and they want to train in something that they can make work, would they not simply abandon it and go train something else altogether, perhaps whatever they might have cross-trained and then used to fix it?
> 
> It just seems like a lot of mental (and physical) gymnastics to go through to justify continuing to do something, if you simply do not believe in it to begin with.


That’s not the point of the thread...aikido doesn’t teach how to punch and other things usually so why not cross train

Plenty of people make aikido work, secondly kicking and punching people isn’t always the best thing to do, it can lead to lawsuits and arrest.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> That’s not the point of the thread...aikido doesn’t teach how to punch and other things usually so why not cross train


I understand that punching and kicking is not typically seen in aikido, although I also understand that it can be, and Ueshiba said it should be.  But then your statement here is assuming that people decide it doesn’t work, so they train something that they believe does work, to fix something that does not work, and make it work.  Perhaps people doing aikido believe that it does work, and the somewhat unique approach to conflict that is found in aikido has merit in its own way, so why would they feel cross training is necessary?  I think the thought process here does not make sense.  

By way of example, I train a kung fu method that is heavy on punching.  We tend to not engage in grappling, although it is my firm belief that the concepts upon which our method is built, could apply well in grappling.  At any rate, I don’t feel that I need to cross train in other systems, including grappling, to make my system work.  It isn’t broken.  It does not need to be fixed.  Within the unique approach to combat that my system takes, there is plenty that works quite well.

However, I have trained other methods in the past, and as I stated above, all that we have done continues to influence all that we do, whether it is intentional or not.  So there is a grain of salt in the mix. 

Getting back to aikido, I suppose a wide interest in martial methods could encourage a person to train in other methods that he then finds is helpful in understanding his aikido.  But that is kind of accidental and to his benefit. To suddenly have that extra point of view that strengthens his aikido.  But that is different from setting out to find a way through cross training, to “fix” aikido.  I can’t read peoples’ minds, but it seems to me if someone felt aikido needed to be fixed, they would simply stop doing it altogether if other martial options that they feel better about, are available to them. 

So that gets to your original question: “Do you train aikido with other arts, to make it work on the street.”  I think the logic there does not make sense. 

You acknowledge below that aikido does work…



> Plenty of people make aikido work, secondly kicking and punching people isn’t always the best thing to do, it can lead to lawsuits and arrest.


I’m sure plenty of people do make aikido work.  I’ve met a few who I am sure are very capable with it.  I’m not sure how that first comment connects with the second one, about lawsuits and such.


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I understand that punching and kicking is not typically seen in aikido, although I also understand that it can be, and Ueshiba said it should be.  But then your statement here is assuming that people decide it doesn’t work, so they train something that they believe does work, to fix something that does not work, and make it work.  Perhaps people doing aikido believe that it does work, and the somewhat unique approach to conflict that is found in aikido has merit in its own way, so why would they feel cross training is necessary?  I think the thought process here does not make sense.
> 
> By way of example, I train a kung fu method that is heavy on punching.  We tend to not engage in grappling, although it is my firm belief that the concepts upon which our method is built, could apply well in grappling.  At any rate, I don’t feel that I need to cross train in other systems, including grappling, to make my system work.  It isn’t broken.  It does not need to be fixed.  Within the unique approach to combat that my system takes, there is plenty that works quite well.
> 
> ...


No, my point was that aikido is an art you use after learning other arts...the founder of Aikido was Already an expert in other arts.

Fine, that’s great, others might say that one day you could run into a judo or BJJ guy who will just take you down and choke you out...but as you said it doesn’t mean your arts useless.

It’s not fixing aikido...it’s just adding to what aikido lacks by itself. If I’m a pro boxer and go into the UFC get arm barred and learn wrestling I’m not fixing my boxing..I’m adding to my game.

if you were to engage me in a fight and injure me I could possibly sue you, if you simply locked my hand or fingers i wouldn’t be injured too bad as if I received a broken nose, face, etc...


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## JowGaWolf (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Another observation of mine:  do people really think to themselves, “I’m training this thing that simply does not work, so I’m going to go cross-train in something else that does work, that I can then use to fix and make this non-working thing work…”
> 
> If someone really felt that what they trained does not work, and they want to train in something that they can make work, would they not simply abandon it and go train something else altogether, perhaps whatever they might have cross-trained and then used to fix it?
> 
> It just seems like a lot of mental (and physical) gymnastics to go through to justify continuing to do something, if you simply do not believe in it to begin with.


I'm glad you brought this up.  I really don't like the term "Make it work." when applied to martial arts.  The term assumes that something is broken, but the truth is often that the person doesn't understand it.

I makes sense to ask "Do you take an similar martial arts to help improve your understanding of functional Aikido.  Sometimes other systems have information that helps to fill in the gaps of another system.



Mider said:


> Plenty of people make aikido work, s


If Aikido works for plenty of people.  They probably aren't "Making it work"  they are probably doing it correctly and with a high level of understanding of the techniques.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> No, my point was that aikido is an art you use after learning other arts...the founder of Aikido was Already an expert in other arts.


Well, the founder created his aikido based on his prior experiences.  I would say that every single martial method that is created is done that way.  They do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum.  A founder of a martial method does not do so without first becoming experienced in martial methods.  All martial arts were based on something ancestral to it.  The fact that the founder based it on prior training, does not mean that today aikido only works if you have a prior background first.  By that logic, one could say that Tae Kwon Do, or Shotokan, or Shaolin Longfist, or BJJ only work if you already have other training.  I think we all know that is not true. 



> Fine, that’s great, others might say that one day you could run into a judo or BJJ guy who will just take you down and choke you out...but as you said it doesn’t mean your arts useless.


Sure, they might.  The results could go either way.



> It’s not fixing aikido...it’s just adding to what aikido lacks by itself. If I’m a pro boxer and go into the UFC get arm barred and learn wrestling I’m not fixing my boxing..I’m adding to my game.


If you feel that aikido “lacks” something, then it sounds to me like you are trying to “fix” it by adding to it.  Perhaps what you are trying to add does not fit within the methodology and the approach to combat that is uniquely aikido.  Maybe aikido is perfectly fine for what it is and for what it is meant to accomplish.  Maybe you are trying to make it into something it was never meant to be.  I can pound a nail with a screwdriver, but it does not work very well.  But a screwdriver was never meant to pound a nail.  If I make a screwdriver look more like a hammer, have I “fixed” the screwdriver?

Boxing works perfectly well in the boxing ring, for which it is designed.  If you want to compete in MMA, then you need to learn something else.  But that is not a shortcoming of boxing.  And boxing can translate quite well into street self defense.  Nobody needs to train other things to make boxing work. 


> if you were to engage me in a fight and injure me I could possibly sue you, if you simply locked my hand or fingers i wouldn’t be injured too bad as if I received a broken nose, face, etc...


Well sure, it depends on circumstances. But how does that have anything to do with whether aikido “works” or not?


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## O'Malley (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> No, my point was that aikido is an art you use after learning other arts...the founder of Aikido was Already an expert in other arts.


Nope.



			Redirect Notice


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> Redirect Notice


Not what Ive read so I’m not gonna even bother reading, ty


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, the founder created his aikido based on his prior experiences.  I would say that every single martial method that is created is done that way.  They do not spring forth fully formed from a vacuum.  A founder of a martial method does not do so without first becoming experienced in martial methods.  All martial arts were based on something ancestral to it.  The fact that the founder based it on prior training, does not mean that today aikido only works if you have a prior background first.  By that logic, one could say that Tae Kwon Do, or Shotokan, or Shaolin Longfist, or BJJ only work if you already have other training.  I think we all know that is not true.
> 
> 
> Sure, they might.  The results could go either way.
> ...


My point was that no one art has the answer, the biggest martial artists I know have rankings in multiple arts.

I’m not a fighter so I wouldn’t know

I already discussed this


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> Not what Ive read so I’m not gonna even bother reading, ty


So you've made up your mind and it doesn't matter what evidence to the contrary anyone provides.
I think there's a word to describe that sort of mindset...


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you've made up your mind and it doesn't matter what evidence to the contrary anyone provides.
> I think there's a word to describe that sort of mindset...


One An article isn’t exactly some ground breaking evidence though...I mean I can look up videos of his students


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Delete


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> if you were to engage me in a fight and injure me I could possibly sue you, if you simply locked my hand or fingers i wouldn’t be injured too bad as if I received a broken nose, face, etc...



Small Joint locks are breaks if done at speed and with people resisting. 
Large joint locks are breaks or dislocations as well, with a minimum of hyper extension.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> So you've made up your mind and it doesn't matter what evidence to the contrary anyone provides.
> I think there's a word to describe that sort of mindset...



Dunning Krueger with no common sense?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> My point was that no one art has the answer, the biggest martial artists I know have rankings in multiple arts.
> 
> I’m not a fighter so I wouldn’t know
> 
> I already discussed this


I don’t follow what your message is.  I have rankings in multiple arts, for what it’s worth.  Not that that makes me anyone special. 

What does it mean for an art to have the answer? all arts do, in their way and according to their methods.  

If you are saying that no art has every conceivable technique, then I suppose you are correct but it depends on what we are talking about.  A thoughtfully devised martial system isn’t a collection of techniques.  It is built upon a set of functional principles that are expressed through techniques.  As such, they give one the flexibility to do whatever you want with those principles, once you thoroughly understand them.  Conceivably, one could come up with any technique and apply it, although that isn’t exactly realistic.  But in that sense, a system constructed in that way, IS complete.

If a martial art is just a collection of techniques, then no, it is not complete.


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Delete


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> I’ll research the matter further
> 
> But that’s not really the point of this thread...I’m asking if aikido practitioners often cross train...this seems to be turning into another silly aikido sucks thread.


That is definitely not my message.  I personally would like to study aikido, and I am afraid I probably missed my chance to train with some highly skilled fellows when I left San Francisco.  I regret that, but life is busy and time is limited.  I think it would be time well spent though, although I recognize my body at my age might object to all the falling.  Maybe I will have an opportunity yet to do so.

But my position is definitely NOT that aikido sucks.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> i asked if anyone trains in aikido and if so do they cross train. You are ranked in multiple arts yet don’t see the use of aikido...you’ve said this, why repeat it 4 times.


I’ve said no such thing.  I’ve actually been saying the opposite.  I believe aikido (as far as I understand it) has everything it needs to be functional, and I am questioning the very idea that someone must have prior background in other martial systems in order to aikido to be useful.


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> That is definitely not my message.  I personally would like to study aikido, and I am afraid I probably missed my chance to train with some highly skilled fellows when I left San Francisco.  I regret that, but life is busy and time is limited.  I think it would be time well spent though, although I recognize my body at my age might object to all the falling.  Maybe I will have an opportunity yet to do so.
> 
> But my position is definitely NOT that aikido sucks.


Maybe


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve said no such thing.  I’ve actually been saying the opposite.  I believe aikido (as far as I understand it) has everything it needs to be functional, and I am questioning the very idea that someone must have prior background in other martial systems in order to aikido to be useful.


I don’t believe any one art has everything


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> Maybe


Maybe what?  I’m telling you how I feel about it.  I wish I had the time to train with some specific aikido fellows when I used to live in San Francisco.  I regret that I did not.


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## Mider (Jan 14, 2022)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe what?  I’m telling you how I feel about it.  I wish I had the time to train with some specific aikido fellows when I used to live in San Francisco.  I regret that I did not.


I mean maybe you should train it


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> I don’t believe any one art has everything


It depends on how flexible the structure of the art is, and how well you grasp the concepts and how broad is your vision of what is possible.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 14, 2022)

Mider said:


> I mean maybe you should train it


I agree!  I hope an opportunity opens up in the future.  Life is busy, I can’t always do everything, even if I would have liked to.  I actually surf the local aikido school websites on occasion to see who teaches in my area.  I think about whether or not I might be able to work it in at some point.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2022)

Yes there is a lot of back of house fundamentals needed to make Aikido work.

No they tend not to train that in Aikido.

I mean if for example you are attempting to develop aiki and you are not doing some form of resisted wrestling. Then how do you develop that? 

It is by definition a timing and intuitive skill.


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2022)

Mider said:


> Not what Ive read so I’m not gonna even bother reading, ty


Wow... That's not exactly conducive to learning if you refuse to read things that don't agree with what you've already been told.  Because nobody ever has told a "creative" story about the founding of a martial art, right?


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## Mider (Jan 15, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> Wow... That's not exactly conducive to learning if you refuse to read things that don't agree with what you've already been told.  Because nobody ever has told a "creative" story about the founding of a martial art, right?


Yes but as I said in another post, I’ll research it further

and I did read it


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 15, 2022)

Mider said:


> One An article isn’t exactly some ground breaking evidence though...I mean I can look up videos of his students


There's really only one way to know if it is or is not. That would be... to read it.


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## drop bear (Jan 15, 2022)

jks9199 said:


> Wow... That's not exactly conducive to learning if you refuse to read things that don't agree with what you've already been told.  Because nobody ever has told a "creative" story about the founding of a martial art, right?



Is there any evidence that link wasn't a creative story about the founding of martial arts?

I am pretty sure you could reasonably discount that link.

Simone Chierchini, an enthusiast Aikido student and divulgator, is a direct student of Hideki Hosokawa and Yoji Fujimoto sensei and has been a pioneer of Aikido in Ireland and an ambassador of the discipline in Egypt.

For over 10 years he has been animating Aikido Italia Network, his extra-mat creature specialised in the production and dissemination of Aikido culture worldwide.


I mean the guy who wrote that article isn't doing peer reviewed stuff. w
What is the most prestigious magazine in that sector. Black Belt? Not exactly a source for hard hitting journalism. 


"Simone has written numerous articles and interviews - both in English and Italian - for the most prestigious magazines and blogs of the sector. In 2009 he has published a novel, "Narrando Viaggiando" with Albatros - Il Filo Edizioni.

Aikido Italia Network Publishing is his latest enterprise."


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## Mider (Jan 15, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> There's really only one way to know if it is or is not. That would be... to read it.


I did read it


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## Holmejr (Jan 15, 2022)

Mider said:


> Do you train Aikido with other arts to make it work on the streets?


All arts have their pluses and minuses, their strengths and weaknesses. The first thing my Eskrido instructor tells new folks is to “Not loose what you already know”. I do not know Aikido well, but i do know a 2nd degree BB that stated he knows really nothing of punches and kicks. I would imagine it would be well complimented by any striking/kicking art.


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## BrendanF (Jan 15, 2022)

Pertinent to this topic:  Great Aikido —Aikido  Greats – 古現武道


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## jks9199 (Jan 15, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there any evidence that link wasn't a creative story about the founding of martial arts?
> 
> I am pretty sure you could reasonably discount that link.
> 
> ...


Don't know -- and you won't know without reading it.  My comment was in response to the attitude displayed of "I don't need to look at things that might disgree with my world.


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## BrendanF (Jan 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I mean the guy who wrote that article isn't doing peer reviewed stuff. w
> What is the most prestigious magazine in that sector. Black Belt? Not exactly a source for hard hitting journalism.



No - the most prestigious magazine on the topic was Stan Pranin's Aiki News.  It's fairly well established that Ueshiba did not have any extensive MA training before meeting Takeda and learning Daito ryu, which he went on to do for a couple of decades.


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## O'Malley (Jan 16, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is there any evidence that link wasn't a creative story about the founding of martial arts?
> 
> I am pretty sure you could reasonably discount that link.
> 
> ...


Chierchini is legit. He searched for evidence of what Morihei Ueshiba actually studied and cites his sources. It's also consistent with the chapters of Ellis Amdur's book "Hidden in Plain Sight" that discuss Ueshiba's training history. Among other things, the book has been reviewed by Peter Goldsbury, an academic, ex-chairman of the International Aikido Federation, considered as an uncontroversial authority on aikido history. I preferred to quote Chierchini over Amdur's book since it's open access (and still from a reliable author). So we have several reputable sources saying "he studied essentially Daito Ryu and a bit of X and Y, but there's no evidence of him studying anything else". There's also an old study by John Driscoll who found that at least 97 out of the 118 basic DR techniques have been passed down in aikido.

On the other hand, we have the narrative of "Ueshiba was a master of multiple martial arts". It's something the Aikikai used to push decades ago (probably to differentiate it from DR), which is still repeated today by folks who heard it once in the 80s, YouTubers who don't know much, and people trying to justify the lack of fighting ability of most aikidoka. Even the link to DR had been obfuscated by the Aikikai until Stanley Pranin started digging. Typically, people who say that Ueshiba was a master of multiple arts are unable to say exactly what arts he studied and when.

Edit: I hope this makes sense, I'm on my phone and in a rush.


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## Martial D (Jan 17, 2022)

Mider said:


> Do you train Aikido with other arts to make it work on the streets?


It works in the street the same way it works in a dojo.




....in both locations you need a cooperative uke


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## Mider (Jan 18, 2022)

Martial D said:


> It works in the street the same way it works in a dojo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you say so...I’ve seen people make it work


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