# Wing Chun Training Progression Question



## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2011)

This is likely an old question and I am half afraid to ask it based on the politics of Wing Chunbut.

I was just thinking about training progression in Wing Chun. 

I realize that there are multiple forms and that Siu Lim Tao is first followed by Chun Kiu followed by Biu Tze and then somewhere in there you train Chi Sau and Muk Yan Jong and Baat Jaam Do (Seung Do) and Luk Dim Boon Kwun. Also I have seen references to Chi Gerk and Mook wan and I understand that it is also likely that different lineages train things in different orders but I was wondering what those that train Wing Chun much more seriously and much longer than I have as a training progression. For the record what I have trained most is from Ip Ching just so you have some idea of where I come from

Where do you feel Chi Sau should fall in this progression or where would sparring come in and what about the knives, staff, wooden ring of sticky legs, what order do you feel the forms should be taught in?

I am eventually going to ask my sifu once I go back and start training with him but I am wondering about this now so I thought I'd ask here


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## WC_lun (Feb 12, 2011)

Sil lim tao is obviously the first.  It is "the little idea" of Wing Chun.  For us that means body structure.  Without it, the rest of Wing Chun's principles can't be achieved. Then chum kui and learning to sink the bridge, stealing an opponent's balance.  We train the mook jon and bui ji at roughly the same time, dependant upon the person.  The mook jon helps reinforce position and structure.  Bui ji teaches a person how to recover quickly and correctly.  The weapons are last and teach how range changes the structure and entry angles.

Things such as knives and sticks are introduced with no particular time line.  They keep the classes from being monotinous and as a self defense school, those skills are valuble.  Grappling and counter-grappling are introduced early, since it is something that is seen a lot. Free sparring is also introduced early, but contact level is closely controlled determined upon a students skill level.  Chi sau is introduced about the time a student is finishing sil lum tao.

This is how we do things, but I I'm sure other schools have varying reasons and timelines.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 12, 2011)

We are structured pretty much the same. Siu Nim tao, followed by chum kiu, followed by chi sau, next comes biu tze, than the wooden dummy, than the lone pole, and finally bart cham do.
Chi gerk has been something we've done to a lesser extent since early level.


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## geezer (Feb 12, 2011)

Nabakatsu said:


> We are structured pretty much the same. Siu Nim tao, followed by chum kiu, followed by chi sau, next comes biu tze, then the wooden dummy, then the long pole, and finally bart cham do.
> Chi gerk has been something we've done to a lesser extent since early level.



What Nab said is pretty much the way it's done in our "Ving Tsun" organization as well as most other groups coming originally from Leung Ting's WT. The emphasis is on good basics and application. A student might train quite a few years before learning any forms beyond Chum Kiu. There is so much to learn with all the chi-sau, lat-sau and sparring that training additional techniques and forms is seen as a distraction. A student might become a Sifu with well over a decade of experience before  completing the dummy form or learning the weapons. I still only know part of the Bart Cham Dao. But WC/VT/WT has never been about _quantity._ Youtube is replete with idiots who think they know all the forms!


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## cwk (Feb 12, 2011)

I come from a mainland lineage so we do things a little differently.
The first thing we learn is a footwork form and the cho gar 13 hands. These are then combined with each other in various stepping and application drills.
After this we learn siu lien tao, a long form that includes the movements from the more common 3 forms of snt,ck and bg.
here's a link to the curriculum.

http://www.banchungchogawingchun.com/Syllabus.htm


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## profesormental (Feb 14, 2011)

Greetings.

What geezer and those before said.

The forms are training vessels that are as useful as the knowledge of the Teacher. Yet they form a commonality within Wing Chun circles.

Each Teacher will use the movements of the forms as basis for the drills done in class and as a foundation of movements from which to study martial activities.

In my case, I'm reformulating and experimenting the way I teach as to optimize martial results. Yet the basis is still the same. If I don't specify specifically why I do what I do and why, most probably you won't notice the difference between my execution of SLT and others.

Controlled sparring drills are developed after a fundamental basis of movements are achieved. They evolve to higher levels of pressure and more parameters. For self defense against realistic "street thug" heavy punching attacks.

At the same time, Anticipatory Offensive Defensive Pattern drills are practiced to develop complex reflexive responses. Then comes Chi Sao where timing for more advanced control and positioning skills are developed. The Chi Sao has many evolutions which include to continuously fight with "street" attacks and flow to controls/attacks/counterattacks without resetting, the attacker "escapes" and you keep defending. You can change to Wing Chun attacks and it looks more like regular Chi Sao.

Bil Jee and the Dummy give several moves and options that are only useful IF you have thoroughly ingrained in your system the options in SLT and CK. Many see the weapons as gifts for the advanced or advanced super training. I see them more as body strengthening exercises, since fencing with those weapons isn't very practical. I would rather use my time training with knives, batons, firearms and other weapons. That is my personal opinion though. They do get you stronger in any case.

Hope that helps.


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## Domino (Feb 14, 2011)

The progressional flow is fine as it is in my opinion, some forms set you up for the next in certain ways and I learnt chi sau not long after learning SLT.


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## geezer (Feb 14, 2011)

profesormental said:


> Many see the weapons as gifts for the advanced or advanced super training. I see them more as body strengthening exercises, since fencing with those weapons isn't very practical. I would rather use my time training with knives, batons, firearms and other weapons...


 
A lot of people would agree with you on that, _Profe_. I think that's one reason why a lot of WC people also train arts like Escrima.


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## profesormental (Feb 15, 2011)

Greetings.

The WC weapons issue is a thread onto itself, yet while I'm open to discussion and learning, I have yet to be convinced otherwise about the weapons.

And while I've trained a lot in Escrima, and quite enjoy it, I have my issues too with many a training program emphasis and the results of them. So much time invested on such beautiful flowing drills (I like many of them), just to end up sparring looking like they are screaming "UPON YOU I SHALL WAIL MY CLUB!!" or "I CUT THEE!!!"

But that is another story.

I put some weapons training sparingly and then focus a bit on it later. To become lethal with a weapon is quite easy, and requires little training compared to the skills needed to control a resisting person with your body/mind without destroying them (unless you want to...). High level Wing Chun and other Kuen Fat are about having that choice, instead of just going for maim or kill.


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