# What's wrong with 'Chunners...



## geezer (Nov 11, 2009)

This coming Sunday I will be attending an FMA gathering at a city park in my town. This is about the forth one we've had, all organized for free by a great guy that just wants to support the Filipino Martial Arts and related arts... everybody is welcome. Each time people from a lot of different systems gather, we have a big potluck BBQ, senior instructors give free workshops in their systems, people meet, share stuff, and have a great time with their families. It's totally cool. 

Now what's wrong with us 'chunners that we can't put our stylistic differences aside and do something like that. Maybe it happens, but if it does, nobody ever talks about it. We're too busy talking about how great our lineage is and how everybody else stinks! Heck, I've met more 'chunners at events like this FMA gathering than anywhere else. Do we have an attitude problem, or what?


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## seasoned (Nov 12, 2009)

The only contact I have had is here on MT, and that may speak for itself. Openness and sharing equates to growth. Closed mindedness stems from old warrior mentality of which leads to narrow mindedness. An open forum is for the benefit of everyone, to understand the big picture of the MA that we all seek to make better. These are my observations made in the spirit of respect toward all who love martial arts.  :asian:


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## blindsage (Nov 12, 2009)

FMA is derived from a myriad of styles spread throughout the islands.  Most modern Wing Chun comes from Yip Man.  FMA egos are already conditioned to accept others will do it different, you can't claim to do it the 'right' way when every village around you has been doing as long as your's has.  Chunner egos are still trying to distinguish their 'style'.  Give it another 20 years, and the death of most of the first generation Yip Man students.  Chunners will start collaborating a lot more.


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## Poor Uke (Nov 13, 2009)

Simple....MONEY.

Of all the martial arts I have come into contact over the last 20+ years I would have to say that _ing _un (and some BJJ nowadays) is the most money oreintated I have come across.

An unpleasant side effect being backbitting and narrow mindedness.


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## dungeonworks (Nov 13, 2009)

geezer said:


> This coming Sunday I will be attending an FMA gathering at a city park in my town. This is about the forth one we've had, all organized for free by a great guy that just wants to support the Filipino Martial Arts and related arts... everybody is welcome. Each time people from a lot of different systems gather, we have a big potluck BBQ, senior instructors give free workshops in their systems, people meet, share stuff, and have a great time with their families. It's totally cool.
> 
> Now what's wrong with us 'chunners that we can't put our stylistic differences aside and do something like that. Maybe it happens, but if it does, nobody ever talks about it. We're too busy talking about how great our lineage is and how everybody else stinks! Heck, I've met more 'chunners at events like this FMA gathering than anywhere else. Do we have an attitude problem, or what?



Lets not forget egotistical too Geezer.  Many 'Chunner's will discount any and all other styles (...or interpretations of their own style) without ever seeing or trying it.  I liken it to how my kids say that dislike certain foods when we both know damn well they never tried it before.  They won't even look at or smell it, let alone taste it.  Although it happens in all arts, I see it more often than not with WC, WT, VT...ect.

Then there is that belief of one master (usually Ip Man) creating/improving a style that is eternally better than the rest and no man that come after can ever add or subtract for improvement.  Add with that the blind faith and psuedo-loyalty to that blindness and *VIOLA!

*For the record, I have yet to eat a food or experience a martial art I did not like to some extent!


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## dungeonworks (Nov 13, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> Simple....MONEY.
> 
> Of all the martial arts I have come into contact over the last 20+ years I would have to say that _ing _un (and some BJJ nowadays) is the most money oreintated I have come across.
> 
> An unpleasant side effect being backbitting and narrow mindedness.



I would say "more than some" when it comes to BJJ!!!  Look at the seminar pricing compared to most JKD seminars!  We have a Gracie Barra gym here in town and to train there is nearly a car payment!  Screw that!  The cheapest two places near me are my old WC kwoon and a local FMA club.  Ironicaly, they are both recognized as the best in the area for the styles they teach, and I'd agree with that.


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## hunt1 (Nov 13, 2009)

Chunners are no different than anyone else. The only thing wrong is that they allow others to do their thinking for them. Happens with religions,cults etc.
 There have been many friendly get together's among the open minded and those that have tried to be open minded. I believe there were even some get together events in Phoenix not to many years ago.

 The only problem is that they buy into the belief that their wing chun comes from Yip Mans best,oldest,last student etc so that someone means that the wing chun they are learning is better than other versions.

 The hands will tell . FMA types follow that. JKD types know that. However because of the belief system that comes along with many wing chun schools wing chun folks don't follow that. I can not tell you how many people I have touched hands with that thought they just needed to train more , believed their teacher must have the answer or just needed to go back to the castle for another 6 months and then they would be able to perform they way they expected to perform.

 All humans are the same. There is a correct way to use the body and incorrect ways. All humans have the same limitations.  One plus One is 2 and a student must understand this and think for themselves. Any time a teacher tells you something that sounds like 1+1=3 a person must question it . The more that do that the fewer problems and more advanced learning there will be.


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## geezer (Nov 13, 2009)

hunt1 said:


> Chunners are no different than anyone else...The only problem is that they buy into the belief that their wing chun comes from Yip Mans best,oldest,last student etc so the wing chun they are learning is better than other versions.


 
This attitude that "My branch is better than your branch" is by no means unique to Wing Chun, but it is all too prevalent.



hunt1 said:


> The hands will tell . FMA types follow that. JKD types know that. However because of the belief system that comes along with many wing chun schools wing chun folks don't follow that.


 
The hands_ will_ tell. When I cross bridges with someone who is better than me we both know it in an instant. Then I can either make excuses, or open my mind and ask questions. I prefer the latter approach. But some folks won't share unless you buy into _their _belief system... and exchange one closed-minded and cultish community for another. 

Regarding students who react to your superior chi-sau skill by thinking that they just need to practice and learn a bit more of their own system... that _isn't_ so illogical. They may have si-hings and si-fus who are highly skilled too. Just because they meet someone from a different lineage who can also beat them is not a reason to abandon their school and lineage. Now if you can so easily defeat all the higher ranking people of the other lineages, then you may have a point. Are you that skilled?



hunt1 said:


> *All humans are the same. There is a correct way to use the body and incorrect ways.* *All humans have the same limitations.* One plus One is 2 and a student must understand this and think for themselves.


 
I don't know... in my experience, humans have vastly different limitations and abilities. I really don't believe that there is a single system or approach to martial arts that is equally advantageous for everybody. Hunt, this just sounds like more of the "my way is the correct way" thinking I thought you were opposed to. Or, like most folks, are you just opposed the way all the _other_ guys think? Honestly now!



hunt1 said:


> Any time a teacher tells you something that sounds like 1+1=3 a person must question it . The more that do that the fewer problems and more advanced learning there will be.


 
Yeah, but the problem is most schools don't _really_ encourage questioning. Sure a sifu might welcome questions about technique and application within the kwoon, but how many would be comfortable with you taking lessons _at the other guy's kwoon_ to compare results? Heck, most of the guys I've met don't even want you to practice with students from other branches. Sheesh!


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## hunt1 (Nov 14, 2009)

Regarding students who react to your superior chi-sau skill by thinking that they just need to practice and learn a bit more of their own system... that _isn't_ so illogical. They may have si-hings and si-fus who are highly skilled too. Just because they meet someone from a different lineage who can also beat them is not a reason to abandon their school and lineage. Now if you can so easily defeat all the higher ranking people of the other lineages, then you may have a point. Are you that skilled?

 Not saying abandon. However on what basis and why would you think that your school has all the answers or any. Other than stories about great fighters what evidence is there of any of these great wing chun teachers fighting and defeating skilled fighters of other styles or families. I know folks give impressive demos against compliant students but that is just more BS.  If you are lucky enough to cross hands against some one better from a different school I would think you would try your hardest to learn what they were doing and how they were doing it. That's what I did and still would  do. As for my skills. I used to travel the world for business and touched hands everywhere I could. I ran adds in Chicago newspapers looking for sparring partners or fights with anyone of any style that was interested. I had an open door open mat policy when I had a school in Florida (don't teach the public anymore to much work) anyone that wanted to try me could under any rules they wanted. I have never been given reason to seek out any teachers other than the ones I had or to learn another martial style save ground grappling which everyone should spend some time learning the basics of.

I don't know... in my experience, humans have vastly different limitations and abilities. I really don't believe that there is a single system or approach to martial arts that is equally advantageous for everybody. Hunt, this just sounds like more of the "my way is the correct way" thinking I thought you were opposed to. Or, like most folks, are you just opposed the way all the _other_ guys think? Honestly now!


 You  are not understanding or missing the point. All humans have the same limitations based on the same anatomy. Sure some are closer than others to the limits of human anatomy based on what they are born with or have trained up but the limits are the same for all. Unless you are saying that those that do wing chun are not human?  Can training make up for a difference in athletic ability yes it can to some degree. This is where learning to use the body in the way it was designed comes into play. Optimize body usage and you can make up for a lack of athletic ability.

 A person can prove this to themselves with a small amount of study. You will find for example that the correct body usage and alignment is the same  and is taught the same in many different athletic activities. Proper stance to shoot a gun,proper technique for offensive line blocking, olympic lifting , power lifting, golf, wrestling ,wing chun. All share the same stance alignment and basic hip usage. Can you take your wing chun stance and without making any changes do all these other activities properly? If so then all is good. If not then you can either turn a blind eye and say 'he doesn't know what he is talking about my wing chun is just fine or you can investigate yourself. When I learned the correct alignment I was able to lower my golf handicap from a 17 to a 10 in one day just by changing my body alignment.

 You are right there is no one system that is better than any other but there is indeed a proper way to use your body and a proper body structure and body alignment. 

Yeah, but the problem is most schools don't _really_ encourage questioning. 


 Is a school that doesn't encouraging questioning a school one should go to? I don't think so. Would you go to a university that didnt let you ask questions? No one would do that. So why is the standard for the teaching 
and passing on of knowledge different for a wing chun school than any other school?


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## Tensei85 (Nov 15, 2009)

geezer said:


> This coming Sunday I will be attending an FMA gathering at a city park in my town. This is about the forth one we've had, all organized for free by a great guy that just wants to support the Filipino Martial Arts and related arts... everybody is welcome. Each time people from a lot of different systems gather, we have a big potluck BBQ, senior instructors give free workshops in their systems, people meet, share stuff, and have a great time with their families. It's totally cool.
> 
> Now what's wrong with us 'chunners that we can't put our stylistic differences aside and do something like that. Maybe it happens, but if it does, nobody ever talks about it. We're too busy talking about how great our lineage is and how everybody else stinks! Heck, I've met more 'chunners at events like this FMA gathering than anywhere else. Do we have an attitude problem, or what?


 

Yea, we have the same problem in Michigan. To be honest I don't think there is anyone correct answer for this semi CMA, etc... (political, egoic issue lol)

However I will state that I have seen the same thing in Tong Long, Bai Mei & even Bagua of all styles, as in Wing Chun. 

It's truly sad, there is a lot of knowledge & skills to share between families & systems. I think people are slowly starting to share more with others, so it seems like change is happening its just slower than wanted for most. But we'll get there as long as we realize were all chugging a long on this road together maybe some are farther than others but were still on the same road.


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## chinaboxer (Nov 15, 2009)

good question, it's like any "disfunctional family", the parents fight among themselves and can't agree on much at all, so how can you expect the siblings to do any better? the parents pass on these failed notions to the next generation and they end up doing the same thing.

the wing chun/ving tsun "leadership" has failed horribly which has led to a "disfunctional community".

how can other martial arts systems take the wing chun/ving tsun community seriously when we can't even work together? they see us fighting amongst ourselves, chastising students for studying with other sifus or systems, they see how we "claim" to know what really works, yet we don't put ourselves on the line.

All the greats in our system put themselves in harms way and tested themselves in bare knuckle fights, yet we today, don't even bother to get in the ring with safety gear. Did Yip Man, WSL, Bruce Lee, Hawkins Cheung, Gary Lam and others avoid "bare knuckle" fights? did they say, "hey..our stuff is way too dangerous to use." no way..yet that's exactly what we do, so how the heck do you think we "come off" to the martial arts community? like hypocrites.

it will be up to us, the future "leaders" of the community to put aside the political silliness and work together to create "momentum". By creating a new generation of quality "Fighter/Teachers" who can inspire the next generation to do the same.


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## seasoned (Nov 16, 2009)

chinaboxer said:


> good question, it's like any "disfunctional family", the parents fight among themselves and can't agree on much at all, so how can you expect the siblings to do any better? the parents pass on these failed notions to the next generation and they end up doing the same thing.
> 
> the wing chun/ving tsun "leadership" has failed horribly which has led to a "disfunctional community".
> 
> ...


Yielding yet powerful, and to the point.


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## Tensei85 (Nov 16, 2009)

chinaboxer said:


> good question, it's like any "disfunctional family", the parents fight among themselves and can't agree on much at all, so how can you expect the siblings to do any better? the parents pass on these failed notions to the next generation and they end up doing the same thing.
> 
> the wing chun/ving tsun "leadership" has failed horribly which has led to a "disfunctional community".
> 
> ...


 

Nice! I like the way you put it.


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## Carol (Nov 16, 2009)

geezer said:


> Heck, I've met more 'chunners at events like this FMA gathering than anywhere else.


w2

I'd like to invite everyone to come over to the (FMA) dark side.  

It will be good for your art 

:jediduel:


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## geezer (Nov 16, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> w2
> 
> I'd like to invite everyone to come over to the (FMA) dark side.
> 
> ...


 
Hear hear! And equally, I would encourage my FMA friends to investigate WC (if they haven't already). 

I just came back form the "Gathering" and had a great time, and saw and learned a lot. Now coming from a WC perspective, some of what I saw was complex and indirect. Some of the pattens... both sinawali with sticks and hubud with empty hands left me unimpressed, however fun it was to practice. The cool thing was that questioning was encouraged. At least if aproached politely and discretely. I was able to find time to speak privately with the instructor/presenters and they were really open to explaining where they were coming from and the objective of these drills. In a couple of cases they showed me the "advanced" or streamlined version of a technique and it made perfect sense.

Now, if I can generalize about the kind of drills that I _didn't_ appreciate so much... that would be most anything that was unduly complex or indirect and that didn't appear realistic to apply against a _non-compliant_ opponent. Even the standard hubud drills seem like patty-cake and use about four moves to accomplish what chi-sau does in one or two movements. 

The typical justification given is that "like chi-sau, hubud is a sensitivity/flow drill,_ not fighting._" Accepted. But chi-sau does have a clear objective. It is not to _stick_ but to find an opening and _hit! ..._as efficiently as possible. Practicing patterns that add a couple if extra "pak-sau" like movements to make an opening violate this objective. My own FMA training (in Latosa and Torres--DTE styles of eskrima) is based on the same principles of economy and directness as WC, although distinct in other ways. Personally, I find myself always coming back to the famous WC/VT/WT kuit translated in my lineage as _"Stay with what comes, follow the retreat, and thrust forward when the hand is freed"._ I don't see anything in there that says _"and add two or three extra movements before you hit." _On the positive side, I also learned some movements that did show me more efficient ways to move. Cool stuff.


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## dungeonworks (Nov 16, 2009)

Why is it so hard for anyone of *ANY BASE STYLE* to "look at" another style?  The only problem with arts I see that are new to me is that I want to train them all more! :uhyeah:


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## geezer (Nov 16, 2009)

dungeonworks said:


> Why is it so hard for anyone of *ANY BASE STYLE* to "look at" another style? The only problem with arts I see that are new to me is that I want to train them all more! :uhyeah:


 
My biggest problem is my limited abilty to quickly absorb and assimilate new information, especially as I get older. Second is the reality that to get good, you have to move automatically or instinctively. If you study systems that teach very different or even conflicting types of movement _in the same situation_, you can never hope to reach this automatic, reflexive kind of response.

My solution is to assuage my curiosity by _looking_ at a lot of different stuff, but I'm very selective about what I study. Not that I can presume to pick only "the best", but rather that I seek out systems that are simple, practical and _complement_ my base. Even then, I wish I were more gifted and had more time to learn this stuff!


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## chinaboxer (Nov 16, 2009)

dungeonworks said:


> Why is it so hard for anyone of *ANY BASE STYLE* to "look at" another style?  The only problem with arts I see that are new to me is that I want to train them all more! :uhyeah:


if you focus and study the "techniques" or what's "different" from art to art, you will be missing the boat.

if you focus and study the "movement" or what's "similar" from art to art, you will see the underlying "concepts" that make each and every movement work.


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## Tensei85 (Nov 16, 2009)

I know this is off topic, but does MT ever have get togethers for training?
That would be great to meet everyone, train & learn. Oh Ya also don't forget the beers! I think Bob :mst: said he was buying!!!


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## dungeonworks (Nov 16, 2009)

geezer said:


> My biggest problem is my limited abilty to quickly absorb and assimilate new information, especially as I get older. Second is the reality that to get good, you have to move automatically or instinctively. If you study systems that teach very different or even conflicting types of movement _in the same situation_, you can never hope to reach this automatic, reflexive kind of response.
> 
> My solution is to assuage my curiosity by _looking_ at a lot of different stuff, but I'm very selective about what I study. Not that I can presume to pick only "the best", but rather that I seek out systems that are simple, practical and _complement_ my base. Even then, I wish I were more gifted and had more time to learn this stuff!



Geezer, I was coming from an angle of "My art is complete...so I have no reason to look at another."....you know, a stab at the politics side of things?  For example, the mere mention of training BJJ as a suplement to WC/WT, and the instant blinders that are put on?

I was pointing to the fact of little mutual respect for other arts outside one's own and the difficultys of getting people to even look objectively, how it happens in all arts, but seems pretty magnified in the WC world...at least internet WC anyways.


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## l_uk3y (Nov 17, 2009)

Its funny that people say chunners are blindfolded (pardon the pun  ). I used to study Wing Chun (For about 6 years) before our teacher did a runner (Sad, Irritating subject). Once every 3 months our sifu brought in one of the instructors from the grapping class downstairs to train us for the entire class with the idea of giving us a very basic grounding of what happens when we get caught on the ground. Opens the eyes very quickly to a weakness, esp as an only child with a 70kg frame (i.e no prior sibling fighting experience and no size advantage). He also used to cover very basic Karate and Boxing for the purposes of us understanding what we could come up against (He also trained several boxers as well as a Kenpo class)

Now training in Hapkido and dabbling in BJJ.  Its amazing how well im finding all 3 styles link together. Our Hapkido class has students from many diff previous styles, Being able to spar going from Wing Chun style attack then finding a stray limb to use a Hapkido lock or throw to take it to the ground before trying to finish it with either a Roll Punch or Submission has by far improved my ability from just pure Wing Chun (albiet i dont feel i got as much out of my Wing Chun training as i would have liked, but thats a different thread)

To anyone (any style) with the blinkers on. I have to recommend cross training at least to a degree. Every style has a weakness (hence a reason why so many diff systems still exist today), and if your too stubborn to take up a new style on the side, you should at least have enough knowledge of other systems to recognise their techniques and strategy to learn how to counter them.


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## bully (Nov 17, 2009)

l_uk3y said:


> Its funny that people say chunners are blindfolded (pardon the pun  ). I used to study Wing Chun (For about 6 years) before our teacher did a runner (Sad, Irritating subject). Once every 3 months our sifu brought in one of the instructors from the grapping class downstairs to train us for the entire class with the idea of giving us a very basic grounding of what happens when we get caught on the ground. Opens the eyes very quickly to a weakness, esp as an only child with a 70kg frame (i.e no prior sibling fighting experience and no size advantage). He also used to cover very basic Karate and Boxing for the purposes of us understanding what we could come up against (He also trained several boxers as well as a Kenpo class)
> 
> Now training in Hapkido and dabbling in BJJ.  Its amazing how well im finding all 3 styles link together. Our Hapkido class has students from many diff previous styles, Being able to spar going from Wing Chun style attack then finding a stray limb to use a Hapkido lock or throw to take it to the ground before trying to finish it with either a Roll Punch or Submission has by far improved my ability from just pure Wing Chun (albiet i dont feel i got as much out of my Wing Chun training as i would have liked, but thats a different thread)
> 
> To anyone (any style) with the blinkers on. I have to recommend cross training at least to a degree. Every style has a weakness (hence a reason why so many diff systems still exist today), and if your too stubborn to take up a new style on the side, you should at least have enough knowledge of other systems to recognise their techniques and strategy to learn how to counter them.



Totally agree.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 27, 2009)

Everytime I organise something like this, the James Sinclair guys steal all the sausages, the Alan Orr guys steal all the burgers and the Kamon guys steal all the beer. That is the real reason for the politics in wing chun...

On a serious note, I have always offered to get something going for a meet up between federations. The trouble is that for all the great bunch of guys you get down, you always get one who will insist that their style has something better to offer and will rub people up the wrong way

I've learnt over the years that it is silly to compare arts and styles - every style teaches something different. I have no problem with another martial arts style as long as it doesnt lie about what it does or make over the top claims ("the best street defence style in the world", etc)

I have trained under a few different schools and found some top quality/nice guys in the UK, let alone the rest of the world.

It is hard organising these kind of thinsg though - I have often tried to organise Kamon events and no one shows up much to my frustration

If you guys want to do something, I'll be there. I'm even popping over to the US next year to visit my bro.

Just dont invite the William Cheung guys lol


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