# Self defense against people who don't wear masks...



## Steve (Jul 3, 2020)

Just curious.  What are you guys doing to keep yourself safe in these times?


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 3, 2020)

Pretend to cough, works like a treat.  

There isnt a legal perogitive for it though, same with if its crowded, bemusingly though i think people are walking purposely closer to each other now, when they are specfically advised and told not to do it than before this.  (shouldnt really be that close to somone to begin with anyway, just as respect for said persons space)


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2020)




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## Steve (Jul 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> Pretend to cough, works like a treat.
> 
> There isnt a legal perogitive for it though, same with if its crowded, bemusingly though i think people are walking purposely closer to each other now, when they are specfically advised and told not to do it than before this.  (shouldnt really be that close to somone to begin with anyway, just as respect for said persons space)


There's a saying that is Norwegians are going to be happy when the 6' social distancing is over.  Then we can go back to our normal 15'.


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## jobo (Jul 3, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just curious.  What are you guys doing to keep yourself safe in these times?


 i take it you mean self defence from the virus rather than SD from people not wearing mask who attack you

personally if i left home with the intent of attacking people a mask seems a good idea to help animity

the whole thing has descend into chaos here, they change the rules so often that im not at all sure that many people know what they are, im certainly hazy

at last count masks were required on public transport and shops that are not substantially food shops, ive tried to see the sense in wearing a mask to buy golf accessories but not potatoes, but failed miserably, two m distancing in food shops seems to have disappeared entirely, though the floor markers remain

ive currently got no idea what what level of social mixing is allowed, where and if masks are required or not

seemingly neither has anyone else ?

i and most other people just ignore the bus requirement for masks, if the driver insist which they generally dont, as they arnt wearing them either, which they should, then i just pull my jumper up over my noise, which meets the legal requirement ( probably)

though i did have a guy in a mask on the bus trying to intimidate me by staring very aggressively at me, which i just ignored, he was quite big , but somewhat fat and if he was that bothered it seems unlikely he was actually going into close quarter fighting with me


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just curious.  What are you guys doing to keep yourself safe in these times?


Same thing as always.  But not with more of a focus of keeping my distance, wearing a mask and not talking to anyone that I don't have to.  I walk by people like they have the plague and they do the same for me.   

With everyone trying to keep a 6 foot distance, and me staying home for the majority of the week.  I just don't see me getting into any type of conflict.  If I do get in one then I'm going to do the same thing.  Keep distance, if it turns into an attack then I'm going to try to end it as quickly as I can.   But realistically speaking, based on what  people have asked my wife,   I probably look like someone who would attack back.  I had more of an issues with confrontations when I was in my 20's and early 30's.  Things started to taper off around when I was 35.

Based on what I've seen from videos, it seems that women are more at risk of having other women cough on them.  I have yet to see a man do it, unless it was on a police officer.  Women do things to each other that men know would lead into a bad fight.  From a legal point.  Cough on someone today would be considered assault, attempted murder, or murder (if the person you coughed on dies from Covid-19) and they test you and discover that you have or had Covid-19.

From my perspective on my life.  I'm probably safer now in terms of having to deal with physical attacks than I was pre-COVID-19 days.


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## JP3 (Jul 3, 2020)

Rat said:


> (shouldnt really be that close to somone to begin with anyway, just as respect for said persons space)


What's your basis for thinking that?  I mean, really... I am curious.  In the West, primarily North & South America, we seem to have developed this sense of "personal space," which does not seem to exist elsewhere, at least not to the same degree.


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## JP3 (Jul 3, 2020)

By the way, @Steve, my understanding is that the mask is for You, not to protect you from Me. It trains you to not touch your face, that's the primary reason to wear the mask in the first place.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2020)

JP3 said:


> By the way, @Steve, my understanding is that the mask is for You, not to protect you from Me. It trains you to not touch your face, that's the primary reason to wear the mask in the first place.



No. The mask protects other people from viral particles in the droplets coming out of your mouth. YOU wear a mask to protect ME, and I wear a mask to protect YOU.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 3, 2020)

JP3 said:


> By the way, @Steve, my understanding is that the mask is for You, not to protect you from Me. It trains you to not touch your face, that's the primary reason to wear the mask in the first place.


Not really. Actually, people touch their faces more when they have a mask on, if they're not used to it.


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## Steve (Jul 3, 2020)

JP3 said:


> By the way, @Steve, my understanding is that the mask is for You, not to protect you from Me. It trains you to not touch your face, that's the primary reason to wear the mask in the first place.


Could be.  I'm not an epidemiologist.  However, from what I've read, you're understanding is the exact opposite of what is being shared by the medical community.  

The primary benefit of you wearing a mask is to the people around you, though it does provide some minimal amount of protection for you from others, as well. 

Still Confused About Masks? Here’s the Science Behind How Face Masks Prevent Coronavirus


*Do masks protect the people wearing them or the people around them?*
_“I think there’s enough evidence to say that *the best benefit is for people who have COVID-19 to protect them from giving COVID-19 to other people*, but you’re still going to get a benefit from wearing a mask if you don’t have COVID-19,” said Chin-Hong.

Masks may be more effective as a “source control” because they can prevent larger expelled droplets from evaporating into smaller droplets that can travel farther.

Another factor to remember, noted Rutherford, is that you could still catch the virus through the membranes in your eyes, a risk that masking does not eliminate._​


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2020)




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## Dirty Dog (Jul 3, 2020)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2020)

JP3 said:


> What's your basis for thinking that?  I mean, really... I am curious.  In the West, primarily North & South America, we seem to have developed this sense of "personal space," which does not seem to exist elsewhere, at least not to the same degree.



You have no buisness being right up close to somone you dont know.  Bad thinngs generally happen, you either get pick pockted, they hit you etc.   (you cant enforce that if its crowded though in most cases, as i think most place sby now should have case law agaisnt that from people who have tried)

Some places havent lost the trust of complete strangers though, i would state the western countries largely have.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> You have no buisness being right up close to somone you dont know.  Bad thinngs generally happen, you either get pick pockted, they hit you etc.   (you cant enforce that if its crowded though in most cases, as i think most place sby now should have case law agaisnt that from people who have tried)
> 
> Some places havent lost the trust of complete strangers though, i would state the western countries largely have.


 thats some sort of psychosis you have there,


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

JP3 said:


> What's your basis for thinking that?  I mean, really... I am curious.  In the West, primarily North & South America, we seem to have developed this sense of "personal space," which does not seem to exist elsewhere, at least not to the same degree.


 i think personal space is a cultural thing, your comfortable with what your used to and what your used to is what your comfortable with, the British versions tends to be canoe shaped, that is to close in-front or behind makes you uncomfortable, get as close as you like side to side, a crowded room will ordinate its self subconsciously to fit that model

i didnt notice that north Americans had a different notion of personal space than the British, which i think i would have done if it were substantially different as i have noted in various other parts of the world, including southern European countries, where getting 18 inches away before starting a conversations isnt that rare, as they also seem to wave their arms about whilst talking it can be a bit disconcerting


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> Could be.  I'm not an epidemiologist.  However, from what I've read, you're understanding is the exact opposite of what is being shared by the medical community.
> 
> The primary benefit of you wearing a mask is to the people around you, though it does provide some minimal amount of protection for you from others, as well.
> 
> ...


 the biggest unanswered mystery about covid, is why there arent more dead,

experts predicted 40 millions deaths and its no where near that figure, as they clearly dont know their **** from their elbow, it seems wise to take everything they say with a pinch of salt


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> thats some sort of psychosis you have there,



No it isnt, can you present one reason somone has for brushing agaisnt you when they have 5 meters either side of you to walk?    There isnt any that doesnt lead to you being suspecious as hell of the, or them annoying you etc.      Second close proximity and crowds is a festering pot of actual pickpockets.  

This is also why you would get looked at funny if you started fending everyone who came within arms reach of you.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> No it isnt, can you present one reason somone has for brushing agaisnt you when they have 5 meters either side of you to walk?    There isnt any that doesnt lead to you being suspecious as hell of the, or them annoying you etc.      Second close proximity and crowds is a festering pot of actual pickpockets.
> 
> This is also why you would get looked at funny if you started fending everyone who came within arms reach of you.


 can you give me any logical reason why if i park my car on an empty car park, i come back to find that every one has parked  near to me, and particularity that two have parked RIGHT next to me, when they had the option of another two hundred parking places to chose from ? it clearly isn't criminal intent

you cant ascribe criminal intent to everyone who gets closer to you, than you are comfortable with


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> can you give me any logical reason why if i park my car on an empty car park, i come back to find that every one has parked  near to me, and particularity that two have parked RIGHT next to me, when they had the option of another two hundred parking places to chose from ? it clearly isn't criminal intent
> 
> you cant ascribe criminal intent to everyone who gets closer to you, than you are comfortable with



Why it happens, swarm effect.   But parking cars and walking are two seperate things, if the only other car is right next to yours i would raise a eyebrow at it. 

There is still no good reason to get close to somone you dont know, you have no way of knowing if they last minute decided not to stab you or something like that.         I would also raise a eye and take note if the only other person walking that day, decided to walk right up next to you.  (these are actually things to take note of as they can indicate somone scoping you and they are still suspicious)


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Why it happens, swarm effect.   But parking cars and walking are two seperate things, if the only other car is right next to yours i would raise a eyebrow at it.
> 
> There is still no good reason to get close to somone you dont know, you have no way of knowing if they last minute decided not to stab you or something like that.         I would also raise a eye and take note if the only other person walking that day, decided to walk right up next to you.  (these are actually things to take note of as they can indicate somone scoping you and they are still suspicious)


well thats what i mean by psychosis, a healthy suspicion of others intent is healthy, persuading yourself that any one who comes within arms length is going to stab you is paranoia


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> Why it happens, swarm effect.   But parking cars and walking are two seperate things, if the only other car is right next to yours i would raise a eyebrow at it.
> 
> There is still no good reason to get close to somone you dont know, you have no way of knowing if they last minute decided not to stab you or something like that.         I would also raise a eye and take note if the only other person walking that day, decided to walk right up next to you.  (these are actually things to take note of as they can indicate somone scoping you and they are still suspicious)


 you clearly dont drive or dont park on empty car parks, try it,  theres a very high chance that at least one of the following cars will park adjacent to you, ieven if you park at the furthest point from the pub or super market, they dont want your car to feel lonely is the only explanation


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> well thats what i mean by psychosis, a healthy suspicion of others intent is healthy, persuading yourself that any one who comes within arms length is going to stab you is paranoia



So, mis using a medical term?   Paranoia is the one you are looking for *(medical wise) and that requires unreasonable suspicion/no evidence.  I have presented only reasonable suspicion.  (and with evidence to back it up, ie pick pockets and theives brushing you to steal things)

You have proceded to relay the same point without giving a good reason for a total stranger to walk right up next to you, or brush by you when its not crowded and they dont know you.        You dont walk up to somone you dont know  and shove your face into theirs and go "hello how are you!".    

Not watching people who are near you/not going to give you space is literally  objectively the worse thing you can ever do.  And the non observant is what people usually target.


*It fits better than psychosis for this instance, compare the two and you will see paranoia fits better for what you are trying to describe.  Psychosis is predominately both delusions and hallucinations.  As opposed to paranoia, which is largely the former, and also specfically baseless threats to yourself.





jobo said:


> you clearly dont drive or dont park on empty car parks, try it,  theres a very high chance that at least one of the following cars will park adjacent to you, ieven if you park at the furthest point from the pub or super market, they dont want your car to feel lonely is the only explanation



Swarm effect, but then its still suspicious if somone parks right next to your car and not a couple of spots away, or just in the general area.    How is it not?   One, being in a vacant excluded area is a hotspot for being ambushed, and two having the only other car be there  and be RIGHT next to yours, in a hotspot for where crimes usually happen, should set off some form of caution as to where the person has gone.  (could have broken into your car, could have tampered with it someway, could be hiding in theirs waiting for you to get in yours to kidnap you etc)

Even if its in the general area they could have done all of that.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2020)

Rat said:


> So, mis using a medical term?   Paranoia is the one you are looking for *(medical wise) and that requires unreasonable suspicion/no evidence.  I have presented only reasonable suspicion.  (and with evidence to back it up, ie pick pockets and theives brushing you to steal things)



People who are paranoid pretty much always think their suspicions are reasonable.

Speaking of mis-using medical terms...
Paranoia is a psychosis. Psychosis is a general term. Paranoia a specific.
Delusions are a common symptom of psychosis. Like (just as an example) someone with no training in martial arts/medicine/auto mechanics/physics/etc who honestly thinks that their opinions on the subject should be taken seriously by those with actual training.
When these delusions develop into an exaggerated sense of personal importance, a conviction that the delusional person is being persecuted, etc, then the delusional person may be considered paranoid. But they're still psychotic.


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## Steve (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> the biggest unanswered mystery about covid, is why there arent more dead,
> 
> experts predicted 40 millions deaths and its no where near that figure, as they clearly dont know their **** from their elbow, it seems wise to take everything they say with a pinch of salt


I never hear 40 million.  I heard anywhere between 3 and 5%.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> I never hear 40 million.  I heard anywhere between 3 and 5%.


thats possibly becausr americans just ignore the rest of the world

and im not aware that it was ever 5% of the population that was proje ted,  to die, thats some what more than 40 million


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## Steve (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> thats possibly becausr americans just ignore the rest of the world


I don't ignore the rest of the world.  Do you...  feel ignored, Jobo?   I mean, we might ignore the UK, because honestly, you guys are as bad as we are. 

Seriously, though, any reasonable person knows that hard number predictions are based on models that are constantly being updated.  As testing improves, we get more data, and people take actions (or in the USA in some cases, refuse to take actions) to mitigate the risks, rates will rise or fall and numbers will be adjusted.

So, all that to say, you may have heard someone project 40million deaths.  I've never heard that number, but I wouldn't be surprised.  I think it's possible that the experts were correct at that time, based on the model they used at that time (projected rates of exposure, positive cases, and resulting deaths at some rate), and also that these same experts will be constantly adjusting those numbers based on updated data.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> thats possibly becausr americans just ignore the rest of the world
> 
> and im not aware that it was ever 5% of the population that was proje ted,  to die, thats some what more than 40 million



Ummmm... that would require 100% of the population to be infected. Now you're just being sillier than usual.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> I don't ignore the rest of the world.  Do you...  feel ignored, Jobo?   I mean, we might ignore the UK, because honestly, you guys are as bad as we are.
> 
> Seriously, though, any reasonable person knows that hard number predictions are based on models that are constantly being updated.  As testing improves, we get more data, and people take actions (or in the USA in some cases, refuse to take actions) to mitigate the risks, rates will rise or fall and numbers will be adjusted.
> 
> So, all that to say, you may have heard someone project 40million deaths.  I've never heard that number, but I wouldn't be surprised.  I think it's possible that the experts were correct at that time, based on the model they used at that time (projected rates of exposure, positive cases, and resulting deaths at some rate), and also that these same experts will be constantly adjusting those numbers based on updated data.


google it,, 40 million projeted covid deaths,, and see hpw many hits you get

experts making predictions off models designed by exsperts, can only blame exsperts if the model was wrong


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> google it,, 40 million projeted covid deaths,, and see hpw many hits you get
> 
> experts making predictions off models designed by exsperts, can only blame exsperts if the model was wrong



The problem is that you're taking what was projected as the worst case possibility if nothing whatsoever was done, and pretending that's got anything to do with the reality of a world that DID do what it could to flatten the curve. Or at least most places and most people did; idiots do exist, after all.


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## Steve (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> google it,, 40 million projeted covid deaths,, and see hpw many hits you get
> 
> experts making predictions off models designed by exsperts, can only blame exsperts if the model was wrong



I googled it and everything that came up was from March, and even then it was a qualified statement "without interventions."


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> The problem is that you're taking what was projected as the worst case possibility if nothing whatsoever was done, and pretending that's got anything to do with the reality of a world that DID do what it could to flatten the curve. Or at least most places and most people did; idiots do exist, after all.


that didnt do what varius exspert required them to do, then the exsperts said,  your not doing enough,

then it turned out that very very few people , by comparisons woth the predictions died, so  they were wrong,, i could have picked a number out of thin air and been as accurate, which im pretty  sure is all they did


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> I googled it and everything that came up was from March, and even then it was a qualified statement "without interventions."


so it wasnt just a figment of my imagination,  and what interventions were they recommending and which countries follow those recommendations


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## ShortBridge (Jul 4, 2020)

I'm relaxing in a hammock in my garden and listening to Hank Mobley with some really good headphones that I just picked up on sale. Can't get much safer than that.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 4, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> People who are paranoid pretty much always think their suspicions are reasonable.
> 
> Speaking of mis-using medical terms...
> Paranoia is a psychosis. Psychosis is a general term. Paranoia a specific.
> ...




There are 3 types for the source i have.   One is a psychosis, one is a personality disorder and one is paranoid schizophrenia.   But fair enough, i skimmed it and i always refer to the paranoia that  is the personality disorder one not the psychosis one.*    I dont know if this changes pending country though. (some things are defined and catergorised diffrently) 

Never the less, paranoia is a better word and term in this instance than just psycosis.

The actual diagnosis of it, is always difficult, because you have to figure out if it is reasonable, or unreasonable.  And that in itself, just thinking about it is seems like it can be very subjective. 

(source is from Mind.org.uk)

*Addendum: i do routinely forget there are 3 paranoias down to me usually using the term to mean the personality disorder, unless i use the term psychosis or schizophrenia  alongside it.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> so it wasnt just a figment of my imagination,  and what interventions were they recommending and which countries follow those recommendations



Your conclusion was made up though. You didn't understand how the 40 million was reached and so inserted your own reality that science doesn't work.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Your conclusion was made up though. You didn't understand how the 40 million was reached and so inserted your own reality that science doesn't work.


All conclusions are made up, where do you think they come from?


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> All conclusions are made up,



Some are vaguely based on information though.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Some are vaguely based on information though.


They are all based on infomation,
Some of them like the 40 million figure are clearly based on faulty information


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## Steve (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> All conclusions are made up, where do you think they come from?


I think you and I have a different idea about what “made up” means.  I really think you’d benefit from a logic class.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> They are all based on infomation,
> Some of them like the 40 million figure are clearly based on faulty information



No. It isn't. You just don't understand the answer. Or the question.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No. It isn't. You just don't understand the answer. Or the question.


Well clearly it is, its circa 39 million to high


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> I think you and I have a different idea about what “made up” means.  I really think you’d benefit from a logic class.



Steve, just a friendly reminder....

You are NOT the Jackass Whisperer.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> Well clearly it is, its circa 39 million to high



No it isn't. 

Because the number is a prediction of death's without intervention.


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## Steve (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> Well clearly it is, its circa 39 million to high


The only person talking about 40 million is you.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Steve said:


> The only person talking about 40 million is you.


Well no, you just mentioned it as well, and drop bear, so that three of us


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No. It isn't. You just don't understand the answer. Or the question.



People like that, who will DIE for that flag and not mask up, I shall wholeheartedly support them and pray they do just that, die.

They will forever be a model for their own family generations of what not to do in future pandemics.


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## Steve (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> Well no, you just mentioned it as well, and drop bear, so that three of us


touche.  
But look into that logic class.  I think you’d get a kick out of it.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> Because the number is a prediction of death's without intervention.


And what was the interventions they recommended?


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> People like that, who will DIE for that flag and not mask up, I shall wholeheartedly support them and pray they do just that, die.
> 
> They will forever be a model for their own family generations of what not to do in future pandemics.



I find that attitude just infuriating. I mean it is fine to be stupid. But don't hurt other people with it.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

Buka said:


> People like that, who will DIE for that flag and not mask up, I shall wholeheartedly support them and pray they do just that, die.
> 
> They will forever be a model for their own family generations of what not to do in future pandemics.


The thing is they almost certainly wont, well maybe that old guy


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> And what was the interventions they recommended?



Why am I hunting down the source? The 40 million was your claim. 

But I did, because you left half the information out to come to a made up conclusion. 

Coronavirus Pandemic ‘Could Have Caused 40 Million Deaths If Left Unchecked,’ Study Suggests
.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

And here we go. Some successful strategy.






Lockdowns, testing, massive intervention.

Or as the report above suggests.

“Rapid, decisive and collective action is required by all countries to limit the effect of this pandemic. Acting early has the potential to reduce mortality by as much as 95%, saving 38.7 million lives,” said professor Azra Ghani, author of the report."


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Why am I hunting down the source? The 40 million was your claim.
> 
> But I did, because you left half the information out to come to a made up conclusion.
> 
> ...


No im asking for the science to back up the vlaim that 39 mill give or take lives have been saved


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And here we go. Some successful strategy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes but most countries didnt act early, some countries didnt act at all, why so few deaths ?


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> Yes but most countries didnt act early, some countries didnt act at all, why so few deaths ?



Really?

Where is your source?


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Really?
> 
> Where is your source?


Yes really, im waiting for your claim that 38 million lives we saved to be verified


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> No im asking for the science to back up the vlaim that 39 mill give or take lives have been saved



Do you understand how they got the 40 million number?


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> Yes really, im waiting for your claim that 38 million lives we saved to be verified



You didn't even back up your 40 million deaths. Steve had to find it.

And found you were reading it wrong.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You didn't even back up your 40 million deaths. Steve had to find it.
> 
> And found you were reading it wrong.


But there wernt 40 million deaths,that rather my point,


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Do you understand how they got the 40 million number?


Yes, they plucked it out of the air at random, if you disagree try justifying it


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> But there wernt 40 million deaths,that rather my point,



*"Coronavirus Pandemic ‘Could Have Caused 40 Million Deaths If Left Unchecked,’ Study Suggests."*

*If left unchecked. *

Context matters.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> Yes, they plucked it out of the air at random, if you disagree try justifying it



Ok. Here is the study.

The impact of COVID-19 and strategies for mitigation and suppression in low- and middle-income countries | Science

So not plucked out of thin air.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> *"Coronavirus Pandemic ‘Could Have Caused 40 Million Deaths If Left Unchecked,’ Study Suggests."*
> 
> *If left unchecked. *
> 
> Context matters.


so who checked it ?

and there a very suspicious use of the word COULD in there


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Here is the study.
> 
> The impact of COVID-19 and strategies for mitigation and suppression in low- and middle-income countries | Science
> 
> So not plucked out of thin air.


so what about the rich counties like the USA which has the most deaths


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> so who checked it ?
> 
> and there a very suspicious use of the word COULD in there



No pretty normal use of the word could.

I can't think of a country that didn't act to mitigate covid.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> so what about the rich counties like the USA which has the most deaths



What about them?


----------



## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No pretty normal use of the word could.
> 
> I can't think of a country that didn't act to mitigate covid.


mitigate ,,,, your changing track now, you said it needed to be CHECKED now its mitigated


----------



## jobo (Jul 4, 2020)

drop bear said:


> What about them?


i ask for the study and you posted one that doesn't included the top tend nations for deaths, im struggling to see its relevance to the discussion

perhaps you could out line what you think it demonstrates ?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> i ask for the study and you posted one that doesn't included the top tend nations for deaths, im struggling to see its relevance to the discussion
> 
> perhaps you could out line what you think it demonstrates ?



It was a study that predicted the 40 million deaths or whatever. That you mentionedwas inaccurate.and so concluded that science was wrong.

Whether or not it includes whatever other stuff you want a study to include isn't really my problem. 

It only has to include what it includes. And either the projection was wrong or right based on what the study was studying. 

If you have a counter study you could present one that has whatever you want.

 If you can find it. 

Or you can reject reality and replace your own.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> i ask for the study and you posted one that doesn't included the top tend nations for deaths, im struggling to see its relevance to the discussion
> 
> perhaps you could out line what you think it demonstrates ?



Cool. Find that study and make your case.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2020)

jobo said:


> mitigate ,,,, your changing track now, you said it needed to be CHECKED now its mitigated



Yeah they are called synonyms. Which are different words that have the same or similar meaning.

So something that has been mitigated. would not be able to be left unchecked.

This was mostly because if I used checked specifically. It would just sound funny.


----------



## jobo (Jul 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah they are called synonyms. Which are different words that have the same or similar meaning.
> 
> So something that has been mitigated. would not be able to be left unchecked.
> 
> This was mostly because if I used checked specifically. It would just sound funny.


they are not interchangeable words, using one over the other completely changes the meaning of the sentence


----------



## jobo (Jul 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It was a study that predicted the 40 million deaths or whatever. That you mentionedwas inaccurate.and so concluded that science was wrong.
> 
> Whether or not it includes whatever other stuff you want a study to include isn't really my problem.
> 
> ...


science is never wrong, scientists are frequently wrong,, if your going to support this study, then go ahead, it seems thats unlikely as you havent read it


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> they are not interchangeable words, using one over the other completely changes the meaning of the sentence



Ok.

No pretty normal use of the word could.

I can't think of a country that didn't act to *check* covid.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> science is never wrong, scientists are frequently wrong,, if your going to support this study, then go ahead, it seems thats unlikely as you havent read it



You would have to show that the study is wrong in this case. Which I assume is to find countries that left the virus unchecked. And see if those numbers don't match up.


----------



## jobo (Jul 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You would have to show that the study is wrong in this case. Which I assume is to find countries that left the virus unchecked. And see if those numbers don't match up.


well no it is obviously wrong, you would need to show it was substancialy correct


----------



## jobo (Jul 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok.
> 
> No pretty normal use of the word could.
> 
> I can't think of a country that didn't act to *check* covid.


well yes unfortunely it, it is fairly normal, put the word could in any statment and it becomes vague to the point of being meaningless., any thing that is even remotely possible is covered
 it could rain tomorrow,  well yes it could

i could win the lottery . yes i could

40 million could die, yrs they could indeed


but the words in dispute were checked and mitigation


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well yes unfortunely it, it is fairly normal, put the word could in any statment and it becomes vague to the point of being meaningless., any thing that is even remotely possible is covered
> it could rain tomorrow,  well yes it could
> 
> i could win the lottery . yes i could
> ...



Which I changed for you. So now it reads check covid where it once read mitigate.

So I don't know of a country that has left covid unchecked. As per the wording of the report.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> well no it is obviously wrong, you would need to show it was substancialy correct



No. That report is the evidence. So I can say the figure is right due to that particular modeling used. The report itself shows it was substantially correct. 

Substituting that reality for your own and saying it is wrong because you think so isn't as convincing. 

You would need to show why it is wrong.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> Yes, they plucked it out of the air at random, if you disagree try justifying it



Ok. Here is the justification for the number.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17513758.2018.1484186

Good luck with that one.

Because without the neccecary training it is unlikely either of us are going to understand how they got the 40 million figure from that.

The difference is I acknowledge I don't understand it and will take their word for it. And I assume you will use methods you do understand and come up with a figure that is wrong.

E.g..

Like those guys in Florida. When they don't understand the situation they apply what they do. 

And wind up with Jesus hates masks or something.


----------



## jobo (Jul 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> No. That report is the evidence. So I can say the figure is right due to that particular modeling used. The report itself shows it was substantially correct.
> 
> Substituting that reality for your own and saying it is wrong because you think so isn't as convincing.
> 
> You would need to show why it is wrong.


 how can a report show that its self is substantially correct???????

its up to you, if you want to contest my statement then find some evidence that the report is correct in whole or part, that isnt the report its self

otherwise youl have to carry on being misinformed


----------



## jobo (Jul 5, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Here is the justification for the number.
> 
> https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17513758.2018.1484186
> 
> ...


im not sure why you posted that, that you dont understand it some what obvious,  how you intend to support something you dont understand is another matter


----------



## JP3 (Jul 5, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. The mask protects other people from viral particles in the droplets coming out of your mouth. YOU wear a mask to protect ME, and I wear a mask to protect YOU.


Perhaps a N95, but a handkerchief wrapped around the face does very little.  Technically a reduction, probably. Ultimate protection like a deflector shield from Star Wars, not so much.

I spent time in health care too.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> im not sure why you posted that, that you dont understand it some what obvious,  how you intend to support something you dont understand is another matter



Yeah. It is called the Trump factor.

So some people think, like yourself,. that if you don't understand something then it has to be wrong and if you do understand it then it is right.

And again we can use those anti mask morons as an example.

Where the explanation they understand. Jesus hates masks or drain the swamp or whatever is the explanation is. They accept.

But in complicated issues like pandemic modeling you are not going to understand it without the years of grounding in the subject.

That doesn't make the experts wrong.

You can't make an argument that you are stupid so therefore right.

That doesn't make sense.

Again Trump factor.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> how can a report show that its self is substantially correct???????
> 
> its up to you, if you want to contest my statement then find some evidence that the report is correct in whole or part, that isnt the report its self
> 
> otherwise youl have to carry on being misinformed



I have contest your statement simply by saying there is no evidence to support your statement.

Otherwise it is like showing a math equation is correct. By showing the process. 

Which is primarily what we are looking at anyway.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 5, 2020)

jobo said:


> how can a report show that its self is substantially correct???????
> 
> its up to you, if you want to contest my statement then find some evidence that the report is correct in whole or part, that isnt the report its self
> 
> otherwise youl have to carry on being misinformed



Or more simply this.


----------



## Buka (Jul 5, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just curious.  What are you guys doing to keep yourself safe in these times?



I've been in quarantine and social distancing, have been since early March. Have been out of work, which I'm loving. I'm masked everywhere I go, and have several spares with me. I don't let anyone without a mask anywhere near me. I have disinfected wipes with me everywhere, even with me when I have to shop, carrying them right into the store.

I only visit with friends who I know have been quarantining, that are taking the same precautions and consider the pandemic as serious as I do.

I'll continue to do so for as long as it takes. Which I'm guessing will be another year at the least.

It's been easier here because we're isolated. But now there's more flights coming in, and even more to come soon. Too soon.

Tourists come here to get away from what they've been going through at home. But most, at least it seems to me, don't think care has to be taken here. I stay away from them. I've told a few to stay back when they approached with a question while my wife and I were hiking.

I take unmasked idiots who come near me as a threat against my safety and shall respond accordingly in any way I deem necessary. 

I know this thread has morphed away from your original post. But that's what I'm doing to keep safe.

What about you, Steve? And how's where you are right now?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 5, 2020)

Buka said:


> I've been in quarantine and social distancing, have been since early March. Have been out of work, which I'm loving. I'm masked everywhere I go, and have several spares with me. I don't let anyone without a mask anywhere near me. I have disinfected wipes with me everywhere, even with me when I have to shop, carrying them right into the store.
> 
> I only visit with friends who I know have been quarantining, that are taking the same precautions and consider the pandemic as serious as I do.
> 
> ...


This post reminded me of a different answer-I quit the hospital! Last day's going to be in about 2 weeks, and all my classes for the following 6 months will be online, so hopefully by the time it makes its way back to NY I will be able to quarantine myself as much as I need to. And planning on, if my budget allows for it, to sign up for bryan stoops program I mentioned in another thread to continue my kali, and check out silat/WC.


----------



## jobo (Jul 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I have contest your statement simply by saying there is no evidence to support your statement.
> 
> Otherwise it is like showing a math equation is correct. By showing the process.
> 
> Which is primarily what we are looking at anyway.


no statement was the report was wrong because there was no evidence it was correct, 

you cant claim there is no evidence that there is no evidence, when its clear there is no evidence or you would have produced it


----------



## drop bear (Jul 6, 2020)

jobo said:


> no statement was the report was wrong because there was no evidence it was correct,
> 
> you cant claim there is no evidence that there is no evidence, when its clear there is no evidence or you would have produced it



The modeling is the evidence. Like a maths equation. The method in this case is the evidence.


----------



## jobo (Jul 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The modeling is the evidence. Like a maths equation. The method in this case is the evidence.


and that modelling is self evidently wrong

you cant use an incorrect statement to prove the same incorrect statement as true, thats circular logic

now if you have something else, post it other wise we will just have to agree to differ


----------



## drop bear (Jul 6, 2020)

jobo said:


> and that modelling is self evidently wrong
> 
> you cant use an incorrect statement to prove the same incorrect statement as true, thats circular logic
> 
> now if you have something else, post it other wise we will just have to agree to differ



And by self evident you mean Brawndo has what plants crave?


----------



## jobo (Jul 6, 2020)

drop bear said:


> And by self evident you mean Brawndo has what plants crave?


 if you dont know what self evident means there is nowhere to go


----------



## Steve (Jul 6, 2020)

jobo said:


> if you dont know what self evident means there is nowhere to go


I agree that there is nowhere to go, because Brawndo's got electrolytes.


----------



## jobo (Jul 6, 2020)

well now the people of florida have something to worry about
Rare brain-eating amoeba case found in Florida


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jul 7, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not really. Actually, people touch their faces more when they have a mask on, if they're not used to it.


Even when they are used to it.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jul 7, 2020)

jobo said:


> science is never wrong


Science is always wrong, it just gets less wrong the more we learn.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jul 7, 2020)

drop bear said:


> The modeling is the evidence.


Modelling isn't evidence, modelling is what you do with the evidence.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> Even when they are used to it.



Not really. Because those of us who are used to it would be breaking sterile technique if we touched our faces.


----------



## jobo (Jul 7, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> Science is always wrong, it just gets less wrong the more we learn.


no not really, science, by that i mean the method of apply science is correct, scientist however are very nearly always wrong, in the conclusion they reach using the scientific method, or at least the hypothesis they developed to apply the method to is invariably wrong

sometimes thats not the biggest problem fail experiments are some times the biggest leap forward that science makes. as we then know that something we( they) believed to be true isnt

but on a variation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principal, the more we learn about one specific piece of a science the less we can be certain that everything else we thought we knew was true, is so

so we know vast amount more than we did even 50 years ago, but have less certainty that any of that is true, at least in the whole, it may turn out to be partly correct


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jul 7, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really. Because those of us who are used to it would be breaking sterile technique if we touched our faces.


I was more referring to dust mask that people have been using. Those things are uncomfortable.


----------



## Buka (Jul 7, 2020)




----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 7, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> I was more referring to dust mask that people have been using. Those things are uncomfortable.



Not sure exactly what you're talking about. I have a dust mask that I wear when I'm grinding or sanding in the shop, and it's not terrible. I don't think it's as bad as wearing an N95 for 12 hours, to be honest. This isn't exact, but it's this sort.






Is that what you're thinking of?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 8, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not sure exactly what you're talking about. I have a dust mask that I wear when I'm grinding or sanding in the shop, and it's not terrible. I don't think it's as bad as wearing an N95 for 12 hours, to be honest. This isn't exact, but it's this sort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is what I bought also. I was thinking buy once cry once.

Then I don't have to fart around with disposables as much.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jul 8, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not sure exactly what you're talking about. I have a dust mask that I wear when I'm grinding or sanding in the shop, and it's not terrible. I don't think it's as bad as wearing an N95 for 12 hours, to be honest. This isn't exact, but it's this sort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those ones tend to feel heavy and get full of moisture after a while but are still more comfortable that the disposable ones.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 8, 2020)

RTKDCMB said:


> Those ones tend to feel heavy and get full of moisture after a while but are still more comfortable that the disposable ones.



As I said, it's that-ish, not that exact one. I've worn mine for 5-6 hours at a time, when I've been doing a lot of grinding without any real problem. It doesn't really seem all that heavy, but that may just be because I've worn some others that were full face with hearing protection that weighed roughly 14 tons.


----------



## jobo (Jul 8, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not sure exactly what you're talking about. I have a dust mask that I wear when I'm grinding or sanding in the shop, and it's not terrible. I don't think it's as bad as wearing an N95 for 12 hours, to be honest. This isn't exact, but it's this sort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 those commonly dont have a filter on the exhaust, rather a one way valve is incorporated, at least the ones here do


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 8, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Not sure exactly what you're talking about. I have a dust mask that I wear when I'm grinding or sanding in the shop, and it's not terrible. I don't think it's as bad as wearing an N95 for 12 hours, to be honest. This isn't exact, but it's this sort.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We call those respirators. The filters are replaceable and can be sized for particulate penetration and certain gases. They can make it harder to take a breath in. Similar to the mask some athletes use when training in that respect.
They get heavy after a while to me. We have to go into certain confined space areas where they are required. Sitting in a cramped space wearing one and programming for several hours is an automatic headache for me.


----------



## jobo (Jul 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We call those respirators. The filters are replaceable and can be sized for particulate penetration and certain gases. They can make it harder to take a breath in. Similar to the mask some athletes use when training in that respect.
> They get heavy after a while to me. We have to go into certain confined space areas where they are required. Sitting in a cramped space wearing one and programming for several hours is an automatic headache for me.


 you wouldnt be wearing one of them in a confined space on one of my jobs, they are good for particulates, but not at all for solvents, gases or lack of oxygen, i suppose it depends on which confined space it is, but if its just particulates id make you wear them where ever you were working

they are not at all, like an oxygen deprivation training mask, if your finding it hard to breath you need to change the hi flow filter as it probably clogged with particulates


----------



## Oni_Kadaki (Jul 11, 2020)

jobo said:


> no not really, science, by that i mean the method of apply science is correct, scientist however are very nearly always wrong, in the conclusion they reach using the scientific method, or at least the hypothesis they developed to apply the method to is invariably wrong
> 
> sometimes thats not the biggest problem fail experiments are some times the biggest leap forward that science makes. as we then know that something we( they) believed to be true isnt
> 
> ...



Reminds me of Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions, which basically says that science is cyclical, with a given theory not necessarily being totally better than another. Instead, he suggests that one theory may only address one particular phenomenon or social concern better than another.


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2020)

Oni_Kadaki said:


> Reminds me of Thomas Kuhn's Structure of Scientific Revolutions, which basically says that science is cyclical, with a given theory not necessarily being totally better than another. Instead, he suggests that one theory may only address one particular phenomenon or social concern better than another.


back in the mid 60s when i was 7, i pointed out to my teacher that Africa and south america looked like they had once been joined, i was told that both that suggestion and i was stupid, i was far from convinced by this

5 years later i watch a documentary on the emerging though still very controversial topic of plate tectonics.

its seems even very learned scientist had similarly been told they were stupid over the decades for suggesting much the same

when your being out thought by a 7 year old, you need to wonder about scientific consensus and what is is worth


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 11, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just curious.  What are you guys doing to keep yourself safe in these times?



Staying at home as much as possible.

Anybody who claims to have a better solution is lying to your face.


----------



## angelariz (Jul 12, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just curious.  What are you guys doing to keep yourself safe in these times?


Same thing I've always done. Eat well, exercise, Not wearing masks. And living. There are a million other things that will kill you before a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.


----------



## geezer (Jul 12, 2020)

jobo said:


> back in the mid 60s when i was 7, i pointed out to my teacher that Africa and south america looked like they had once been joined, i was told that both that suggestion and i was stupid, i was far from convinced by this
> 5 years later i watch a documentary on the emerging though still very controversial topic of plate tectonics.
> its seems even very learned scientist had similarly been told they were stupid over the decades for suggesting much the same
> when your being out thought by a 7 year old, you need to wonder about scientific consensus and what is is worth



Jobo- I'm _glad _you posted this. You and I are of a similar age, and I had exactly the same experience. A fourth or fifth grade teacher in the mid-60s also dismissed my childish observations about the way the continents look like they'd fit together like puzzle pieces. 

Flash-forward to my final year at a prep school in a different state in the early 70s. I took an elective class in geology taught by a bright young geologist fresh from finishing his graduate work. I just found a stack of old papers from that class in a box in the garage. He had us doing some pretty in-depth studies of plate tectonics, continental drift, vulcanism, faulting, all kinds of cool stuff.

I also learned that continental drift theory not new, even back then. Alfred Wegener proposed the idea back in 1912. But it wasn't until the 50s and 60s when the mechanisms of sea-floor spreading, the role of subduction zones and so forth became better understood that the idea gained traction.

So you and I must be among _millions_ of curious kids of that era that got pooh-poohed by close-minded teachers because we had our eyes open to the obvious. Actually, it was kinda good preparation for life as a grown up. More than half the people I've had to work for in my adult life could be as benighted, close minded and dismissive as that first grade-school teacher. With great effort, I've learned to just shut up and take my paycheck. Some of the time.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 13, 2020)

angelariz said:


> Same thing I've always done. Eat well, exercise, Not wearing masks. And living. There are a million other things that will kill you before a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.



That's not the survival rate of COVID19.  Not even close.  Mortality Analyses

Not to mention every single person who gets it and is asymptomatic (a majority) can potentially kill an untold number of people.

Where do you get your info from, Facebook memes?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 13, 2020)

angelariz said:


> Same thing I've always done. Eat well, exercise, Not wearing masks. And living. There are a million other things that will kill you before a virus with a 99.7% survival rate.


If you read the title/purpose of the thread, you are the one we have to defend ourselves against. Not someone worrying about self defense in this instance.


----------



## jobo (Jul 13, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you read the title/purpose of the thread, you are the one we have to defend ourselves against. Not someone worrying about self defense in this instance.


 i had a fallout over masks yesterday, masks are required on the bus, unless your disabled or have breathing problems which is its self a disability.

so as i tried to get on, the driver said, no mask no journey,, i told him i was disabled, but he was not having it and throws me off.

i did warn him that i would report him

so today i rang to complain.

the guy on the phone told me, what their policy was and the driver was right

but thats not what your policy says, i replied, as id just read it and he clearly had not

some  long time later we agreed i was right and he would put the guy up for a disciplinary for a flagrant breach of the equalities act and retrain the other drivers to protect the disabled from being abandon at the road side

disabled lives matter as well and i was bored this afternoon
they are sending me a dispensation card, which is nice of them, that will come in handy as they are now taking about making them a requirement in shops


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> i had a fallout over masks yesterday, masks are required on the bus, unless your disabled or have breathing problems which is its self a disability.
> 
> so as i tried to get on, the driver said, no mask no journey,, i told him i was disabled, but he was not having it and throws me off.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure how that works, especially in the UK, but I'd imagine you have to have some sort of card with your disabled status listed. Otherwise everyone would just say their disabled when they don't want to wear a mask and ruin it for those who actually are.


----------



## jobo (Jul 13, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not sure how that works, especially in the UK, but I'd imagine you have to have some sort of card with your disabled status listed. Otherwise everyone would just say their disabled when they don't want to wear a mask and ruin it for those who actually are.


, well no, no card required by law, simply saying your disabled should get you a journey, which is what their policy says, you may , but almost certainly wont have to dispute it with the police. the cards themselves are given out with out any proof of disability being required. so any one can get one of they apply

and anyway insisting that the disabled carry cards is its self discriminatory, unless required by law, which it isnt

how will it spoil it for the disabled ? it wont make any difference to them, if lots of people claim to have breathing difficulties


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 13, 2020)

jobo said:


> , well no, no card required by law, simply saying your disabled should get you a journey, which is what their policy says, you may , but almost certainly wont have to dispute it with the police. the cards themselves are given out with out any proof of disability being required.
> 
> and anyway insisting that the disabled carry cards is its self discriminatory, unless required by law, which it isnt
> 
> how will it spoil it for the disabled ? it wont make any difference to them, if lots of people claim to have breathing difficulties


It'll spoil it practically not legally. Because people will claim disability, and bus drivers, restaurant owners, greeters, etc. either won't believe them or won't know the law about it. So you'll end up in an argument with them, possibly getting unfairly removed or not let in to the establishment, if they consistently see people claiming disabilities and doubt it.

Like I said, legally it won't change anything, but you and other disabled people would have to confront them about it and/or escalate it more often than if a card was involved.


----------



## jobo (Jul 14, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It'll spoil it practically not legally. Because people will claim disability, and bus drivers, restaurant owners, greeters, etc. either won't believe them or won't know the law about it. So you'll end up in an argument with them, possibly getting unfairly removed or not let in to the establishment, if they consistently see people claiming disabilities and doubt it.
> 
> Like I said, legally it won't change anything, but you and other disabled people would have to confront them about it and/or escalate it more often than if a card was involved.


your rather missing the point, there is no requirement on the vender to police it, thats the job of the police. if lots of people are abusing it, then that for the police to sort, though i have no idea how they will prove you dont have breathing difficulties or be claustrophobic

if a vender stops someone with a disability from using a service they are breaking the law, the problem is a lot of disabilities are invisible to the casual observer, a situation where you have to outline your disability to a third party in a public place is the very worse outcome. its far better that a lot of people who a faking get in

as i said such cards are there are allow you to self diagnose yourself as disabled, but you cant insist that all disabled wear a disability badge, that would be just wrong, but if your determined not to wear a mask a badge is available to you

i had a serious fall out with a local college who wouldnt let me use the( far more convenient) disabled entrance because i had cycled there. you cant provided a disability entrance and then say only some disabled people can use it, just because i could easily walk the additional 100 yards. its a disability entrance, i have a disability, LET ME IN


----------



## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> your rather missing the point, there is no requirement on the vender to police it, thats the job of the police. if lots of people are abusing it, then that for the police to sort, though i have no idea how they will prove you dont have breathing difficulties or be claustrophobic
> 
> if a vender stops someone with a disability from using a service they are breaking the law, the problem is a lot of disabilities are invisible to the casual observer, a situation where you have to outline your disability to a third party in a public place is the very worse outcome. its far better that a lot of people who a faking get in
> 
> ...


Only because I thought you mentioned this in another thread... isn't your disability that you are dyslexic?  If I have that wrong, I apologize.  I just thought you said that somewhere, so when I read these posts, it seems a little off to me.


----------



## jobo (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Only because I thought you mentioned this in another thread... isn't your disability that you are dyslexic?  If I have that wrong, I apologize.  I just thought you said that somewhere, so when I read these posts, it seems a little off to me.


are you saying dyslexia isnt a disability  and shouldnt allow you to use disabled services ?


----------



## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> are you saying dyslexia isnt a disability  and shouldnt allow you to use disabled services ?


Not at all.  I don't know much about it.  Can you explain to me how dyslexia prevents you physically from being able to wear a mask or use a standard door?  I want to learn more about it.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Not at all.  I don't know much about it.  Can you explain to me how dyslexia prevents you physically from being able to wear a mask or use a standard door?  I want to learn more about it.


it doesn't but if the laws says the disabled are exempt then thats it, im exempt.

, having one leg doesnt mean you cant wear a mask either, but my issue is they give me panic attacks, also exempt,as does being forced to walk an extra 100 meters when im late

if they provided a disabled entrance then they cant discriminate over how disabled you have to be to use it, that would be illegal, thats like telling someone they are not black enough to alleged racial discrimination or not religious enough for religious discrimination


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> it doesn't but if the laws says the disabled are exempt then thats it, im exempt.
> 
> , having one leg doesnt mean you cant wear a mask either, but my issue is they give me panic attacks, also exempt,as does being forced to walk an extra 100 meters when im late
> 
> if they provided a disabled entrance then they cant discriminate over how disabled you have to be to use it, that would be illegal, thats like telling someone they are not black enough to alleged racial discrimination or not religious enough for religious discrimination


Just asking a question.  I tend to think about disability related to function.  For example, a person who has one leg is clearly disabled, but if that person is a software engineer, the disability may not affect his or her ability to function in that role. Tammy Duckworth is a United States Senator, and lost both of her legs while flying a helicopter in Iraq.  She is clearly disabled, but has managed to work at a high level in government, have children, and do many other things that are not affected by her disability.  This isn't to say that her disability doesn't limit her; only that there are areas where her disability is not limiting.  She can even be seen wearing a mask.

So, in your case, I am curious how dyslexia physically prevents you from wearing a mask.  Now you're saying they give you a panic attack.  Is that a typical byproduct of dyslexia, or are you saying that in addition to dyslexia, wearing masks give you a panic attack?  Are you more prone to panic attacks than anyone else?

You also say that your dyslexia induces a panic attack if you walked an extra 100 meters from the disabled entrance to the general entrance.  Is that it's "extra" salient?  What I mean is, could you walk 100 meters without issue if it weren't an "extra" 100 meters?  Would it be less panic inducing if the disabled access was just simply 100 meters from you?


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2020)

Steve said:


> Just asking a question.  I tend to think about disability related to function.  For example, a person who has one leg is clearly disabled, but if that person is a software engineer, the disability may not affect his or her ability to function in that role. Tammy Duckworth is a United States Senator, and lost both of her legs while flying a helicopter in Iraq.  She is clearly disabled, but has managed to work at a high level in government, have children, and do many other things that are not affected by her disability.  This isn't to say that her disability doesn't limit her; only that there are areas where her disability is not limiting.  She can even be seen wearing a mask.
> 
> So, in your case, I am curious how dyslexia physically prevents you from wearing a mask.  Now you're saying they give you a panic attack.  Is that a typical byproduct of dyslexia, or are you saying that in addition to dyslexia, wearing masks give you a panic attack?  Are you more prone to panic attacks than anyone else?
> 
> You also say that your dyslexia induces a panic attack if you walked an extra 100 meters from the disabled entrance to the general entrance.  Is that it's "extra" salient?  What I mean is, could you walk 100 meters without issue if it weren't an "extra" 100 meters?  Would it be less panic inducing if the disabled access was just simply 100 meters from you?


id didnt say the dylexia gives me panic attacks, though it can do. i to have braved adversity  to carve out a worth while career 

i e no idea how many panic attacks other have, just that i suffer from panic attacks. 

 the disable access is never going to be a 100 m from me when i cycle right up to it.

the point remains it is an acess for people with disabilitirs and i have such so its for me,


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## Steve (Jul 14, 2020)

jobo said:


> id didnt say the dylexia gives me panic attacks, though it can do. i to have braved adversity  to carve out a worth while career
> 
> i e no idea how many panic attacks other have, just that i suffer from panic attacks.
> 
> ...


Sure.  I understand. But I'm still not clear about how cycling up to the disabled access or to the general access would differ for you.  

And to be very clear, I'm not commenting on any adversity you have braved or anything like that.  I'm very simply trying to learn more about how your dyslexia might physically prevent you from wearing a mask on a public bus, to help prevent you from potentially spreading disease to the other folks on the bus.  And to be honest, I'm still confused.  So far, it really sounds like you're making this binary.  One is either disabled or not disabled.  I think I may be confused because my position is a bit more nuanced and practical.


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## Buka (Jul 14, 2020)

Meanwhile, I'll continue to think of any non masker wearer near me like Corona Zombies. 
And treat them thusly.


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## jobo (Jul 15, 2020)

Steve said:


> Sure.  I understand. But I'm still not clear about how cycling up to the disabled access or to the general access would differ for you.
> 
> And to be very clear, I'm not commenting on any adversity you have braved or anything like that.  I'm very simply trying to learn more about how your dyslexia might physically prevent you from wearing a mask on a public bus, to help prevent you from potentially spreading disease to the other folks on the bus.  And to be honest, I'm still confused.  So far, it really sounds like you're making this binary.  One is either disabled or not disabled.  I think I may be confused because my position is a bit more nuanced and practical.


well it is binary, the law makes it so, what ever the definition of disabled is in any particular country, means your disabled if you fall within the definition and not if you dont

if you have a disability but dont want to consider yourself disabled thats fine as well, but you cant tell people who meet the definition that they are not disabled enough, to avail themselves of disabled services. i get annoyed id im discriminated against just because people have a faulty definition of what disability is, and they are most probably breaking the law


nb the secure bike parking is adjacent to the disabled entrance. the only reason that door is controlled is for security purposes and not having to put staff on the door to guard the building, so that the discrimination is just based on convenience for them makes it worse. clearly any number of disabled people can cycle, disbarring them based just on that point is clearly wrong morally and legally, as the college eventually accepted

i have much the same issue with my disability assistance dog being refused entry to places, though he is register as such and with using disabled parking/seats etc. there a lot og bigots in the world

i got  verbally attacked by some guy for parking in a disabled bay, as it was the reason i was there was id just dropped off two very old ladies to do their shopping, but he took it upon himself to threaten me because he decided i didnt look disabled enough, i could have had both legs amputated for all he could see walking past, ive never seen anyone back of so quickly when i jumped out of the car,

then there the on going issue with the parent and child parking bays which i use quite legally when i have my mother with me

and dont get me started on age discrimination

its like a full time job fighting discrimination


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## Steve (Jul 15, 2020)

jobo said:


> well it is binary, the law makes it so, what ever the definition of disabled is in any particular country, means your disabled if you fall within the definition and not if you dont
> 
> if you have a disability but dont want to consider yourself disabled thats fine as well, but you cant tell people who meet the definition that they are not disabled enough, to avail themselves of disabled services. i get annoyed id im discriminated against just because people have a faulty definition of what disability is, and they are most probably breaking the law
> 
> ...


A dog?  Now I'm really curious.  If at any point this gets too personal, just let me know and I'll drop it.  I'm really not trying to pry.  I'm just hearing things from you that are confusing to me and so far, you've been pretty willing to share.  

Regarding the binary nature, it makes sense if you look at it legally.  As I said earlier, I'm thinking about this practically, such as the examples I provided.  About 10 or so years ago, the Americans with Disabilities Act in the USA was updated, and the new provisions shift focus from the disability toward providing accommodation and access. So, for example, the issue with the doors is less about whether you are entitled to use the door and more about whether you need to use the door to have equal access to the building.  If so, it's there for you to use.  Not everyone needs a ramp (and in some cases, a person's disability may make using a ramp actually more difficult or dangerous than using stairs), but the building should have one in case someone needs to use it.  Some accommodations are more passive and some are restrictive.  So, the doors and the ramps and the widened aisles that can accommodate a wheelchair are often open for anyone to use.  Brail on signs, beepers on crossing signals, high visibility striping... all of these are intended to grant equal access, not equivalent access, to spaces.  

Designated parking is actually enforceable and can result in a pretty hefty fine if you park there without an acceptable placard, but most 

I don't know the ins and outs of mask wearing, but in a case where public health is involved during a pandemic, I would think that anyone who can wear a mask should wear a mask.  Which is actually what prompted the thread in the first place.  In the USA we have a lot of really crazy folks who are irrationally resistant to wearing masks, and (related to the point in the other thread) the issue has been politicized to the point where not wearing a mask is considered "patriotic" and being required to wear a mask violates a sense of entitlement.  But the relevant point is that 1: these folks are often ready for a confrontation.  They are not wearing a mask as a principled stand and will go from 0 to 100 in no time flat.  And 2: these folks have proven to be volatile to the point of violence.  If you confront them about not wearing a mask, either as an employee or a regular citizen, you quite literally risk being attacked.

Just yesterday, a 40-ish year old man was not wearing a mask.  When a 77 year old man called him on it, the guy stabbed him, ran away and was eventually killed by the police.  I could share countless articles, often including video, of folks just going bonkers about wearing a mask, when all anyone around them wants to do is avoid getting sick.  It's pretty sad.   But the question is, do you confront these yo-yos?  Just try to avoid them and hope they don't cough on you?


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> A dog?  Now I'm really curious.  If at any point this gets too personal, just let me know and I'll drop it.  I'm really not trying to pry.  I'm just hearing things from you that are confusing to me and so far, you've been pretty willing to share.
> 
> Regarding the binary nature, it makes sense if you look at it legally.  As I said earlier, I'm thinking about this practically, such as the examples I provided.  About 10 or so years ago, the Americans with Disabilities Act in the USA was updated, and the new provisions shift focus from the disability toward providing accommodation and access. So, for example, the issue with the doors is less about whether you are entitled to use the door and more about whether you need to use the door to have equal access to the building.  If so, it's there for you to use.  Not everyone needs a ramp (and in some cases, a person's disability may make using a ramp actually more difficult or dangerous than using stairs), but the building should have one in case someone needs to use it.  Some accommodations are more passive and some are restrictive.  So, the doors and the ramps and the widened aisles that can accommodate a wheelchair are often open for anyone to use.  Brail on signs, beepers on crossing signals, high visibility striping... all of these are intended to grant equal access, not equivalent access, to spaces.
> 
> ...



Just checked out the link. It is refreshing to read a police shooting related article where the police officer did the right thing and was not made a media martyr.  I feel there is more to this story and will follow it for more discovery.


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## jobo (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> A dog?  Now I'm really curious.  If at any point this gets too personal, just let me know and I'll drop it.  I'm really not trying to pry.  I'm just hearing things from you that are confusing to me and so far, you've been pretty willing to share.
> 
> Regarding the binary nature, it makes sense if you look at it legally.  As I said earlier, I'm thinking about this practically, such as the examples I provided.  About 10 or so years ago, the Americans with Disabilities Act in the USA was updated, and the new provisions shift focus from the disability toward providing accommodation and access. So, for example, the issue with the doors is less about whether you are entitled to use the door and more about whether you need to use the door to have equal access to the building.  If so, it's there for you to use.  Not everyone needs a ramp (and in some cases, a person's disability may make using a ramp actually more difficult or dangerous than using stairs), but the building should have one in case someone needs to use it.  Some accommodations are more passive and some are restrictive.  So, the doors and the ramps and the widened aisles that can accommodate a wheelchair are often open for anyone to use.  Brail on signs, beepers on crossing signals, high visibility striping... all of these are intended to grant equal access, not equivalent access, to spaces.
> 
> ...


il come back to the other points later

but of course you dont challenge them, its the surest way of getting yourself in conflict, people generally react badly to be told off,by random strangers if you pick the wrong person your in a good position for being thumped or worse, at very best pick someone who is physically inferior to you

its turned into a very emotive issue with both sides dropping a long way short of rational

if its a legal requirement there is law enforcement to enforce it, if it is a personal choice then thats your answer, insisting that other do what you think they should, is just sticking your nose in some elses business, you have a personal choice to stop in or dont go there or leave if you dont like it

what you cant really do is insist that others have the same neurosis as you


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Just checked out the link. It is refreshing to read a police shooting related article where the police officer did the right thing and was not made a media martyr.  I feel there is more to this story and will follow it for more discovery.


Someone's dead.  I wouldn't default to saying the cop did the right thing.  I'd default to, at best, neutral, and investigate whether deadly force was necessary.


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> Someone's dead.  I wouldn't default to saying the cop did the right thing.  I'd default to, at best, neutral, and investigate whether deadly force was necessary.


Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.


Exactly.  That's called accountability.   Someone is dead.  It seems like the very least we can do is determine it was unavoidable and necessary.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.


This is basically how any job goes. If something goes wrong, for anything from a customer complaint, computer issue, someone fell, etc. they investigate to figure out what happened, and who if anyone is at fault. No one is assumed from the start that they followed their training/did their job correctly, but no one is (ideally) accused of doing something wrong before the investigation is determined. I don't see why cops would be an exception to this.


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## Oily Dragon (Jul 16, 2020)

jobo said:


> i had a fallout over masks yesterday, masks are required on the bus, unless your disabled or have breathing problems which is its self a disability.
> 
> so as i tried to get on, the driver said, no mask no journey,, i told him i was disabled, but he was not having it and throws me off.
> 
> ...



You should be avoiding public transportation entirely, for your own health.  Why would you want to ride a public bus that could be crawling with the virus?  If your lungs are that bad already, a minor exposure to COVID could be the end of you.


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## jobo (Jul 16, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> You should be avoiding public transportation entirely, for your own health.  Why would you want to ride a public bus that could be crawling with the virus?  If your lungs are that bad already, a minor exposure to COVID could be the end of you.


ive treated the whole pandemic as hysterical nonsense, now i accept others right to a hypochondriac, its seems others are less charitable than i am

im 61 i haven't spent a single night in hospital since i left shortly after birth, it seems unlikely a virus will get me,, when my immune system has defeated all that came before. i went to the doctors when i was 50, to find they had thrown me off the list, as i hadn't been since i had my vaccinations as a tot, they dug my records out of the basement and said '' really you've not been ill since 1963, no i said and ive only come for a check up now, i like to pop in every half century or so


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> No one is assumed from the start that they followed their training/did their job correctly, but no one is (ideally) accused of doing something wrong before the investigation is determined.


Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Steve said:


> Exactly.  That's called accountability.   Someone is dead.  It seems like the very least we can do is determine it was unavoidable and necessary.


True enough. That is very different from condemning them from jump. One bad apple as they say.


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.



I agree that I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where it’s assumed I messed up. And I also wouldn’t want to work with people if I assumed they would do things wrong. However, if someone lost their life, I’d certainly expect an investigation and not assume the killing was justified automatically. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> True enough. That is very different from condemning them from jump. One bad apple as they say.


and also very different from presuming that the death was justified from the jump.  Too many bad apples, as they say.


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.


Well it's fine if there is trust.  But unfortunately, a significant percentage of the USA does not trust the police to do their job without some degree of direct oversight.  In fact there it is fair to say that many police officers have not earned trust, or have even betrayed the trust of the communities in which they serve.  I trust a lot of folks, until they demonstrate that it isn't smart to trust them.  Trusting folks who haven't earned it is foolish.  And when those folks are armed and prone to violence, it can be gravely foolish.


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## Steve (Jul 16, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> I agree that I wouldn’t want to work somewhere where it’s assumed I messed up. And I also wouldn’t want to work with people if I assumed they would do things wrong. However, if someone lost their life, I’d certainly expect an investigation and not assume the killing was justified automatically.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Exactly, unless we're saying that killing folks is so common among police that it has become unremarkable.  Even among cops, killing folks would (I hope) still be a significant and traumatic experience, and an investigation seems like it would (or should) be a matter of common sense.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Really? This is you work environment? I cannot afford to work with people I do not trust to do their job. I cannot imagine working in an environment where I am guilty until proven innocent. That is not much faith in your fellow man.


This is every work environment. When there is a complaint, management is supposed to investigate to determine what is the cause of the complaint. When something goes wrong, management should examine that as well to figure out why. I would be much more concerned if I worked somewhere when, when things go wrong, nothing was done to figure out why.

And I don't understand how investigating everything before coming to a decision is 'guilty until proven innocent'. It's pretty directly not guilty until proven guilty.


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## dvcochran (Jul 16, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This is every work environment. When there is a complaint, management is supposed to investigate to determine what is the cause of the complaint. When something goes wrong, management should examine that as well to figure out why. I would be much more concerned if I worked somewhere when, when things go wrong, nothing was done to figure out why.
> 
> And I don't understand how investigating everything before coming to a decision is 'guilty until proven innocent'. It's pretty directly not guilty until proven guilty.


Absolutely. Business at some employee count level are required to have an HR person and a safety person that are often the same in small companies. 
No one is debating that whatever policies were already in place should not take place. It has to as this information benefits everyone, especially the owner.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Absolutely. Business at some employee count level are required to have an HR person and a safety person that are often the same in small companies.
> No one is debating that whatever policies were already in place should not take place. It has to as this information benefits everyone, especially the owner.


Then I don't see what the issue is here. That accountability is exactly what's being talked about when we discuss the idea of being neutral when something like a death happens until learning the information. Just as a member of the consumer (which all americans are for american police) rather than the position of HR. 

I agree as the consumer, we shouldn't be immediately accusing police officers of doing something wrong when something bad happens (the same way you shouldn't yell at a retail employee of doing something wrong when your coupon isn't scanning), but we also shouldn't automatically assume that everything was done right (again with the coupon, ask for verification that the code is active/expired, and if active someone else looks at it to see if the cashier is doing it right, or there's some hidden requirement for the discount). Obviously a coupon is much lower stakes, but it's the same concept.


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## drop bear (Jul 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Oh yeah, heaven forbid we give an officer enough credit to think they followed their training, the law, and did their job.



If there is a death. There should be an investigation. This is a big difference in our culture to yours a bit. Where you would suggest he did the right thing. We would suggest he did a horrible but neccecary thing.


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## drop bear (Jul 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> Exactly.  That's called accountability.   Someone is dead.  It seems like the very least we can do is determine it was unavoidable and necessary.



Yeah there is probably a reason our cops shoot about 3 people a year.


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## Grenadier (Jul 17, 2020)

*Admin's Note:*

Political discussions aren't allowed here.  

If you want to discuss politics, then go to one of the other forums hosted by the Forum Foundry.  

Here's one you can use.  

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


That being said, we tend to be quite generous when it comes to allowing for a bit of topic drift, but some of y'all keep pushing the limits.  

I'm generally not going to shut down a thread simply because some political discussion is present, but when it gets hijacked into that territory, it's going to get closed.  

Don't test us on this matter.


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