# Bujinkan took many techniques from Pirates



## forumtengu (Oct 20, 2007)

I notice that many techniques in the Bujinkan look similar to what we learn in Pirate Combat. I asked my instructor about this and he said Pirates had visited Japan and no doubt passed on many of of the techniques we use.


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 20, 2007)

Ohhhh. This should be good.


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## Blindside (Oct 20, 2007)

Wait, that means ninjas are really pirates.....  That is soooo cool!  So do ninjas have wenches in skimpy outfits?


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## theletch1 (Oct 20, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Wait, that means ninjas are really pirates..... That is soooo cool! So do ninjas have wenches in skimpy outfits?


I dare you to call a "kunoichi" a wench to her face.:ultracool


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## elder999 (Oct 20, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Ohhhh. This should be good.


 
I think the case has been made that Kukishinden ryu was at least partially _naval_ in use-consequently, much of the footwork is meant for the deck of a ship. This could be the source of some of the similarities.....


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 20, 2007)

You wake up in the morning and you hear noise from the roof, like the feet of hundreds of small squirrels, but then you're not sure if the noise is coming from the roof, or from a neighbor's apartment, or from inside a book...

Then you're dancing around a toaster oven while singing your year, month and date of birth backwards, and on the other side there's this badger dancing in the opposite direction, and then suddenly you realize that there's this small elephant made out of marzipan inside the toaster shouting "let me out! Let me out!"

It's really strange, the way people look at you sometimes.


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## stone_dragone (Oct 20, 2007)

...i'm just waiting.


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## newtothe dark (Oct 21, 2007)

This should be a great thread


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## newtothe dark (Oct 21, 2007)

Thhough I am new to the style I do read alot (I know will get me in trouble) there is a type of spear I remeber seeing which could be used for hooking or climbing as one point faced away and 2 faced back. I look alot like a tool my Father used to use to hook fish and was common on boats just cant remember either name.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 21, 2007)

So, what is "pirate combat"?  I've never heard of it?  :angel:


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## Cryozombie (Oct 21, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> So, what is "pirate combat"? I've never heard of it? :angel:


 
Traditionally? Ship to Ship cannons.  

Well, maybe Pistol and Rapier.


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## elder999 (Oct 21, 2007)

Lord of the Dead said:


> Traditionally? Ship to Ship cannons.
> 
> Well, maybe Pistol and Rapier.


 

Don't forget the trade axe and grapple, rope, and more likely a cutlass to a rapier.....ship to ship cannons were meant to _disable_ the prey, not sink it-not much booty available to a pirate in a sunken ship. So, barring surrender, the pirates expected to have to board the ship, and engage in hand-to-hand combat, especially since the pistols of the era only fired one shot, took a while to reload, and weren't known for their accuracy. A pirate might board with several pistols ready, but expected to fall back on their trade axe, cutlass or other close-quarters weaponry.


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## LuzRD (Oct 21, 2007)

Aaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## exile (Oct 21, 2007)

I hesitate to get into this... but pirates also frequented Chinese ports (and often ran extensive extortion rackets in China in the late 18th c.) as well as Philippine and Indonesian coastal villages. Given those facts, is there any less reason to suppose that the rather non-Bujinkan-ish fighting systems of China and the Philippines reflect Arhhhggghhh-Matey-Jutsu!! than the Ninjutsu arts mentioned in the OP? And if so, why do they all look so different from each other?? How can we tell who _really_ incorporated the secret piratical CQH2HSD secrets???? Arnis? Monk Fist Chuan Fa?? Who can say?!!


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## Blindside (Oct 21, 2007)

Does this mean that pirates also have Real Ultimate Power?


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## Blindside (Oct 21, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Don't forget the trade axe and grapple, rope, and more likely a cutlass to a rapier.....ship to ship cannons were meant to _disable_ the prey, not sink it-not much booty available to a pirate in a sunken ship. So, barring surrender, the pirates expected to have to board the ship, and engage in hand-to-hand combat, especially since the pistols of the era only fired one shot, took a while to reload, and weren't known for their accuracy. A pirate might board with several pistols ready, but expected to fall back on their trade axe, cutlass or other close-quarters weaponry.


 
Boarding pikes, don't forget the boarding pikes.

Aaaarrrrrrr!


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## Carol (Oct 21, 2007)

Lord of the Dead is a Bujinkan Pirate


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## Sukerkin (Oct 21, 2007)

Hmm, does the fact, that the endemic pirate fleets of the Inland Sea were more often than not part of one daimyo's forces during much of what is now known as the Middle Ages, affect anyones opinion on this?

Given the less than sound historical background for the sheer existence of ninja's in the first place (not on about the 'style' here, so no shruiken up my bum please !), why not allow for there to be a piratical strain to the shipboard techniques?  After all, there are sword techniques that developed for shipboard use, so why not empty hand?

P.S. I'm laid up with the 'flu at the moment so if I'm not making much sense blame it on the fever {and the shock of becoming officially engaged for the first time in my life :lol:}.


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## elder999 (Oct 21, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Boarding pikes, don't forget the boarding pikes.
> 
> Aaaarrrrrrr!


 

A boarding pike is a "grapple," as are grappling hooks,and boarding axes ( as opposed to the smaller and lighter trade axes).


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## exile (Oct 21, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> P.S. I'm laid up with the 'flu at the moment so if I'm not making much sense blame it on the fever *{and the shock of becoming officially engaged for the first time in my life :lol:}*.



Well, to hell with all the rest of ithell, the pirates and the ninjas have _always_ been as one in their epic conflicts with samurai, eh! :lol:but congratulations, Mark, on the bolded material above! And recover soon from your case of the gripppppe...

:cheers: artyon: :cheers:

I know it's a bit off topic... but maybe that's not so important in the present case, eh?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 21, 2007)

Cheers, my friend :tup:.  

I don't want to drag the thread about from it's potentially very interesting core, so I wont go any further than express my thanks for the congratulations (and not sticking me with shruiken ).


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 21, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Given the less than sound historical background for the sheer existence of ninja's in the first place (not on about the 'style' here, so no shruiken up my bum please !),


 
You paint a canvas in various pink nuances, and then you walk around in the street showing it to people who aren't really prepared, and at the same time you yell out "real estate broker!!!" And then you just run away, but you're not really looking to see where you're going, so you run straight into a telephone pole. Which transforms into chocolate.

Cue heretic888.


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## Blindside (Oct 21, 2007)

elder999 said:


> A boarding pike is a "grapple," as are grappling hooks,and boarding axes ( as opposed to the smaller and lighter trade axes).


 
Why are they called that?  The boarding pike heads I've seen are very, well, pike-like, pretty dang useless for doing anything like "grappling."  But thank you for the information.


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## elder999 (Oct 21, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Why are they called that? .


 
Depends upon what you're "grappling," don't it?:EG:

Created to _repel_ boarders, though sometimes used by a poorer pirate in a boarding party, who lacked a cutlass or quiver of pistols, one of the strategies used with this weapon was to entangle it in the clothes of a boarder or sink it into their flesh and use leverage to throw them between the ships, where they'd likely be crushed.....


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## newtothe dark (Oct 21, 2007)

Gratz on the soon to be Mrs Ninja woot!!!!!!!!!! 

On topic if there is water and a boat then there be pirates!!


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## Bigshadow (Oct 21, 2007)

forumtengu said:


> I notice that many techniques in the Bujinkan look similar to what we learn in Pirate Combat. I asked my instructor about this and he said Pirates had visited Japan and no doubt passed on many of of the techniques we use.


 
Sorry I don't see any similarities.


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## tellner (Oct 21, 2007)

No. A boarding pike is _*not*_ a grapple. It is a pike, a spear. I've got a couple authentic ones and have done a little research into the history. The European and American ones tended to be triangular cross section spears on anything from four to eight foot shafts. Some were socketed. Some had tangs. None would have been any use as a grapple. 

If you're talking about Age of Sail European pirates and privateers the most common weapons were:

The cutlass - We have old manuals showing the drill. It doesn't resemble any sort of Japanese sword technique with which I am familiar
The rapier or smallsword (officers only) - similar, although the few places the Dutch and Portugese were allowed to trade may have caused a little cross-fertilization. Good luck proving anything
The boarding axe or tomahawk - Useful for all sorts of things from choppng wood, cutting fouled rope, pulling big hunks of rope, digging *shudder* furnace shot out of wood and for whacking people upside the head. How common a weapon was the tomahawk in Japan anywhere any time?
The boarding pike - See above, a stout spear of various lengths that left a vicious wound. Japan already had well-developed spear technique
The boarding knife - Uncommon but feared. A bit like the nagamaki. A specialist's weapon. Almost certainly parallel evolution.
Various pistols, muskets and blunderbusses - Outside of the Baby Cart comics, no. Japan pretty much rejected the use of firearms. The samurai rebellion during the early years of Japan's opening to the world demonstrates why. Lots of dead samurai who never even got into bow range before being cut down by artillery and volleyed fire
Cannon - see above
Boarding nets - very important but only on shipboard.
When you say "pirates" it depends on what you're talking about.

If you mean European and American pirates from the sixteenth to early nineteenth centuries there was no appreciable influence. Period. The famed ninja shadow warriors (tm) had nothing to do with any of the areas in question. Same with the Barbary pirates, pirates off the horn of Africa, or pirates off the West Coast of Africa. I'd venture to say that the same holds for Dayaks, the South China sea and the Phillipines. Japan was incredibly insular (so to speak). The secret police and the few possibly existing (a different discussion) renegade mountain dwellers wouldn't have had any business in those areas.

There were pirates in the area around Japan. Odds are they would be armed and fight like, well Korean, Chinese or Japanese sailors but mostly not as formally trained. How much influence would they really have on either the shogun's enforcers or the possibly existing other guys? Probably a bit around the coasts, but I can't imagine it would be all that much.

And by the bye...

irate2:irates:

*Pirates Are Way Cooler Than Ninja!!!*

%-}  irate:


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## shesulsa (Oct 22, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> So, what is "pirate combat"?  I've never heard of it?  :angel:




http://www.www.halfire.com/application/index.php?cmd=25&project_id=216&obbydata_id=2917&obby_id=909


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## That One Guy (Oct 22, 2007)

ROFLMFAO


you know, I have a theory that a good flame war is healthy for any internet community once in awhile.......


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## tellner (Oct 22, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> http://www.www.halfire.com/application/index.php?cmd=25&project_id=216&obbydata_id=2917&obby_id=909



:bs1::bs: :bs1:​
Ye flippin' gawds. Where to begin...



> In 1924 Jushin Teach established the school that came to be known as Pirate Combat. He wanted his school to study as closely as possible the way of the Pirates as practiced in the 8th - 12th Century. Jushin Oshima was a naval captain in the British Navy, and it was his devotion and research that ensured the survival of the art in its present form. Teach coined the word 'Pirate Combat', which alludes to the broader world, or path, of the classical Pirate, full of spiritual and martial values. With the close of the War in Asia in 1945, Pirate Combat found itself based in Spain, where it had earlier been adopted by the occupying Imperial Forces. This was a blessing, as the art was sheltered from the social conditioning and cultural sterilization that was occurring in the rest of the world under American occupatio. . This is where a retired Navy Captain, Tomus Quido (an 8th Dan Grandmaster), took over and trained, and in 1977 passed the Grandmastership to his student, Simon Tang (now 9th Dan). In 1987, Shihan Simon Tang moved to New York and established the World headquarters for the Art of Pirate Combat, the first dojo for this art to exist in the world.



So Blackbeard founded a school of Dark Ages "classical" pirate martial arts in 1924. In 1945 it somehow moved to Spain where it acquired Japanese ranks and had established itself earlier(?!), presumably without anyone ever hearing of it. And the only Grandmaster passed it on to the one guy who keeps The Flame alive. This is sounding more and more like Hikuta on a combination of overproof rum and bad acid.



> * TRUTH 1: The first stage involves the learning process, whereby the students learn all the basics in techniques. The White belt to Red belt covers this stage.
> * TRUTH 2: This level shows the limitations of techniques. In a sense, students have to 'unlearn' everything from the previous level. Techniques can only go so far, so students learn and understand that spontaneity is the key to unlock the rigidity and inflexibility of techniques. The Ha level is where students are expected to undergo a degree of transformation, to go beyond the limitations of techniques. The Brown belt to the 3rd Dan Black Belt is worn during this stage.
> * TRUTH 3: This stage traces a path of transcendence, where one frees oneself from techniques. In one's mind techniques do not exist any more: you and the techniques are one, inseparable. 4th Dan Black belt and above is required here.



Yeah, that sounds like Calico Jack and a bunch of escaped _lumpen proletariat_ British Seamen and how they fought. Yup. Yup.



> *  (weight & Strength training)
> * (grappling, throwing & choking)
> * (strikes, kicks & blockings)
> *  (situation techniques)
> ...


Batons and staves. Chains. Sickles. 
No pikes, axes, muskets, pistols, cannon, or even boarding knives and slungshots if you want to get obscure. 

*sniff* *sniff* Has a bull been through here? Had he eaten recently?

Then there's the guy's bio:



> Shihan Simon Tang 's training in martial arts began when he was eight. At 16 he obtained his Kodokan Black Belt (a rare honour in those days). He was chief instructor in Judo at the his University from 1967 to 1970. Shihan Simon Tang continued to study other disciplines, gaining a wider perspective of the martial arts. He has practiced Seibukan Karate, Ju-jitsu, Taijutsu, and Kuatsu. In this same period he competed often and won numerous titles, including the Europe Ju-Jitsu Championships in 1969, the All Europe Grappling Championship of 1970, and the Eastern Europe Freestyle Battle of Champions (Light Heavy-weight) in 1971.
> 
> Shihan Simon Tang 's turning point came when he was 26: he discovered Pirate Combat. Here he finally found an art that gave him the enlightenment he was looking for. Pirate Combat became a vehicle for him to achieve balance and harmony in mind, body, and spirit. He realised that martial arts was not just about fighting and winning. It was more about self-realisation and self-discovery.
> 
> In his teachings, the Shihan always tries to ensure that his students understand the mental and spiritual aspects of the art. In his own words, "It is the spiritual dimension that ultimately creates the truepirate." Students are taught from the outset that techniques must be made relative to the surroundings they are practised in. The most important quality to cultivate in training is spontaneity, because only this can allow one to blend techniques with the given situation. Training of the mind and meditation therefore constitutes a major part of the syllabus.





> The Red Belt Syllabus
> The student covers more weapons at this level the ancient pirate weapons of sickle and staff (six-foot staff) are taught.
> 
> The Purple Belt Syllabus
> ...



Meditation and spiritual improvement. That sounds traditionally piratical to me. I'm picturing a bunch hardbitten sailors with striped shirts and eyepatches sitting on the deck in a circle before battle solemnly intoning 

Arrrrrr Arrrrrr

until they achieve Enlightenment.

Great Poseidon. The guy isn't even a good liar.

The pictures show what looks like Renn-Faire style fencing/stage combat poorly done.

And so on.

And so forth.

It's a poorly executed joke, delusional, or someone has tapped into the 0.0167 Hz Barnum Wave big-time.

:bs1::bs: :bs1:​


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## Sukerkin (Oct 22, 2007)

Wonderful tirade, *Tellner* .

"Jushin Oshima" ... a British Navy Captain from the 1920's?  Mmm, I don't think so, not with a name like that :lol:.


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## DavidCC (Oct 22, 2007)

elder999 said:


> A boarding pike is a "grapple," as are grappling hooks,and boarding axes ( as opposed to the smaller and lighter trade axes).


 
So... pirates were grapplers.  Which means ninjas are grapplers.  Therefore grapplers are ninjas.  Therefore, ninjas > mma.


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## shesulsa (Oct 22, 2007)

I just kinda clicked around on the link the OP had in his siggy and found that.  I take no personal responsibility for the content of that link nor do I state my opinion of it in any way shape or form.


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 22, 2007)

They look like a bunch of theme park employees. Did anybody notice the background in some of those photos. Looks like a park display/ride.


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## Kreth (Oct 22, 2007)

Anyone notice the OP has had nothing to say since starting this thread?


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## Sukerkin (Oct 22, 2007)

Often the way of things when Pirates and Ninja are about ... arrrh! ... hiiyaah!


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## heretic888 (Oct 22, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Cue heretic888.



But I like lurking!! :ninja:

Oh, all right.....



			
				Sukerkin said:
			
		

> Given the less than sound historical background for the sheer existence of ninja's in the first place (not on about the 'style' here, so no shruiken up my bum please),



*holds breath*

_Nochi Kagami_, _Go Kagami_, _Bansenshukai_, _Shoninki_, _Ninpiden_, _Iranki_, the diary of a 16th century Todai-ji monk.....

*releases breath*

Just to name a few.


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## bydand (Oct 22, 2007)

:lfao:  I really, really hope this is just a spoof site.  It has to be a bunch of college age kids doing this instead of their class work.  This is some really funny stuff, did anybody watch the "training videos"?  I liked the training photos myself.  There be some comely wenches there matie, Arrrr.  The don't look at all like the STD riddled prostitutes you normally think of as pirate's  women :angel:.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 22, 2007)

Cheers, *Heretic*.  I'll look into those.  

Like I said to *Bandit*, I've been studying Japanese history for twenty years or more and have never come across a source that was convincing.  

I have come to hold the 'more myth than reality' view given that no serious history that I've read gave credence to the existence of Ninja Clans as a 'secret' strata of Japanese society.  Of course, as maybe your noted references will prove, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that I just haven't read the right texts.


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## tellner (Oct 22, 2007)

Yep. "Unproven" is the best I've heard. 

And of course there was that little incident where the government said to some malcontents "Come in from the cold. The Secret Police are looking for a few good men. No road tolls for you and your family, steady work and a government pension. Besides you get to wear funny hats and carry around a shakuhachi."

Money. Get hunted down and killed. Pension. Get hunted down and killed. A break on my taxes. Get hunted down and killed.

No-brainer, isn't it?


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## shesulsa (Oct 22, 2007)

heretic888 said:


> *holds breath*
> 
> _Nochi Kagami_, _Go Kagami_, _Bansenshukai_, _Shoninki_, _Ninpiden_, _Iranki_, the diary of a 16th century Todai-ji monk.....
> 
> ...


Wow!  How'd you say all that while holding your breath? :uhyeah:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 22, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> I have come to hold the 'more myth than reality' view given that no serious history that I've read gave credence to the existence of Ninja Clans as a 'secret' strata of Japanese society.


 
That particular perspective on history was more or less a creation of Stephen Hayes. I kind of doubt that even he himself supports it these days.


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## newtothe dark (Oct 22, 2007)

This has turned into a great thread so much funny posts and yes bydad the wenchs rule!!!!! no disrepect to the ladies


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## bydand (Oct 22, 2007)

Have to agree _newtothe dark_ this is a good thread.  Also I meant zero disrespect about the wenches comment, just figured talking about pirates it was going to be about the only time I would get to use that without getting slapped down.




P.S. it's byda*n*d.  bydad makes it sound like, well, ....irate3:

:lfao:  JK it was too easy to let slide past you know.


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## heretic888 (Oct 22, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Cheers, *Heretic*.  I'll look into those.
> 
> Like I said to *Bandit*, I've been studying Japanese history for twenty years or more and have never come across a source that was convincing.
> 
> I have come to hold the 'more myth than reality' view given that no serious history that I've read gave credence to the existence of Ninja Clans as a 'secret' strata of Japanese society.  Of course, as maybe your noted references will prove, it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that I just haven't read the right texts.



Hi Sukerkin,

I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. 

If you are suggesting there is little evidence to support the historical reality of the Iga-shu or Koga-shu, then all I can say is keep searching. Its easy to find, even if one is just dealing with English language sources. Turnbull's  books alone should have more than enough period accounts to demonstrate these guys really did exist.

If you are suggesting, however, that the historical Iga and Koga groups were in fact, not some super-secret cultish underground of spies and assassins, then well, you'll find no disagreement from me. That tripe mostly comes from early English language exposures such as Donn Draeger's writings on ninjutsu or _The Shogun_. Hayes, of course, intensified and popularized this metanarrative, but he didn't invent it.

We can be relatively certain that the Iga-shu and Koga-shu:

 really did exist 
 were primarily samurai families (typically jizamurai and kokujin) who specialized in intelligence and unorthodox warfare 
 organized their communities on the basis of a regional alliance (ikki) of villages and castles, without a daimyo per se (the Koga-shu technically had a daimyo, but they made a sort of agreement with his family for their relative autonomy and independence)
 avoided formal alliances with outside forces, preferring to sell their services on a case-by-case basis (a la "mercenaries") --- however, they tended to have very consistent "customers" (such as the Matsudaira/Tokugawa)
 were held in esteem by both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates
 were mammals

Sorry, I couldn't help myself with that last one.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 22, 2007)

I'll go to bed without eating a cookie tonight. Thanks.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 22, 2007)

Hi *Heretic*

Yes, we're on the same page on this it would seem.  

The mythologised Ninja are the bane of any serious discussion of the subject and that's what I'm referring to whenever I get all 'spouty' on the topic.  

Even when I cry "There's no such thing as Ninja" at the top of my lungs, what I'm on about is that there was no seperate caste that performed the functions attributed to ninja and that all Samurai could potentially to be called on to perform assassination, espionage et al that most people think the 'noble' warriors were too 'pure' to indulge in.

Anyhow, still too laid-up to make much sense but thanks for taking the time to put out not only a list of sources but a neat thumbnail of the 'reasonable' stance on the place of ninja in Japanese culture.  Needless to say, because of their availablility, I have many of Turnbull's works (as well as Draeger's) and a number of lesser known English language general/specific period history texts.  My Japanese language is still not good enough to read untranslated texts, which is a shortfall I'm working on, so time will tell how that goes .


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2007)

tellner said:


> No. A boarding pike is *not* a grapple. It is a pike, a spear. I've got a couple authentic ones and have done a little research into the history. The European and American ones tended to be triangular cross section spears on anything from four to eight foot shafts. Some were socketed. Some had tangs. None would have been any use as a grapple.





I actually have more than a dozen authentic boarding pikes-some with their original shafts intact, in addition to some other antique goodies-a couple of cutlasses, firearms, boarding and trade axes&#8230;.scrimshaw&#8230; you&#8217;ll find that most of my ancestors from the beginning of the 20th century back to the mid-18th century were sailors-captains, in fact-on whaling and merchant ships, as well as some others&#8230; this man, was my great-grandfather&#8217;s brother, and  this man was the brother of my great-great-great-great grandfather. 

Admittedly, none of these people were &#8216;pirates,&#8221; but a pretty broad knowledge of maritime traditions, including martial arts, has been part of my family&#8217;s heritage and education for, well, hundreds of years-in addition to the native traditions of lacrosse, baggataway and the gajeewah, my father taught me a fair amount about using those wonderful maritime tools, just as his father taught him, and my great grandfather taught my grandfather, and so on&#8230;if any of you are ever in Sag Harbor, NY, you should go to the Whaling Museum, and see the numerous items donated by the my grandfather, &#8230;.er&#8230;Aaron J. Cuffee :lol:

With that said,*no,*pikes  wouldn&#8217;t have been any use as a conventional &#8220;grapple,&#8221; in the sense that you mean-as in reaching over and &#8220;grappling&#8217; the ship over, or pulling oneself up by them,their points are not at all suited to that. However, in a boarding action-especially one where ramps were used, they could be used to &#8220;grapple&#8221; an opposing sailor out of the way or overboard, either by (as I stated earlier) the fact of the weapon being embedded in their flesh, or entangled in clothes.  Rather than pulling the weapon out of a person, their body would be leveraged to the side-especially in the frequent case wounds that did not prove to be immediately fatal. If you consider the state of affairs in which the weapon was sometimes used-one mass of people trying to prevent another from passing-this was a fair strategy for opening up a hole in that mass, and allowing passage. Those shorter pikes could especially work this way, though they were more often used one-handedly, just to poke a hole in someone, or feint to allow a cut with a weapon held in the other hand

Other than their use in leveraging someone out of the way, pikes were also classified as &#8220;grapples,&#8217; or, more contemporaneously, _grapnels_-though a grapnel is more properly an anchor, both words have their root in &#8220;grape vine,&#8221; implying entanglement, and were interchangeable at the time. As for pikes, while often positioned about the deck of a ship, they were also stowed with the proper grapples and boarding tools, and thus came to be classified as such at the time-so it&#8217;s also simply a matter of terminology at the time&#8230;..though it may be exclusive to my family, for all I know, as the only documents from the time where I&#8217;ve seen it referred to as such is in the ships logs that have been passed down to me&#8230;

Now, what about the Kuki family being "naval samurai?"


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## tellner (Oct 22, 2007)

That makes more sense. I misread and thought you meant that they were designed as "grapples" in the technical sense.

Some time I'd like to do a bit of "I'll show you mine if you'll show me yours" with the Age of Sail weapons. I'm always interested in seeing examples, particularly ones that saw use and have the wear marks on them. There's a lot you can learn from those.


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## newtothe dark (Oct 22, 2007)

bydand said:


> Have to agree _newtothe dark_ this is a good thread. Also I meant zero disrespect about the wenches comment, just figured talking about pirates it was going to be about the only time I would get to use that without getting slapped down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

opps sorry was at work and was typing fast :bow:


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 22, 2007)

*Attention All Users

Please keep return to the original topic and keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Super Moderator
*


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## Eireannach (Oct 23, 2007)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> You wake up in the morning and you hear noise from the roof, like the feet of hundreds of small squirrels, but then you're not sure if the noise is coming from the roof, or from a neighbor's apartment, or from inside a book...
> 
> Then you're dancing around a toaster oven while singing your year, month and date of birth backwards, and on the other side there's this badger dancing in the opposite direction, and then suddenly you realize that there's this small elephant made out of marzipan inside the toaster shouting "let me out! Let me out!"
> 
> It's really strange, the way people look at you sometimes.


 
I actually had to log in to say, love your work. That made me laugh hard.


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## DavidCC (Oct 23, 2007)

Jade Tigress said:


> *Attention All Users*
> 
> *Please keep return to the original topic and keep the conversation polite and respectful.*
> 
> ...


 
I'm just curious what that original topic was - was it "are ninjas really priates without boats?"

:LOL:


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## shesulsa (Oct 23, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> I'm just curious what that original topic was - was it "are ninjas really priates without boats?"
> 
> :LOL:


Please remember that not all in-thread warnings from staff are for the post immediately preceding the warning post.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Admin.


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## elder999 (Oct 23, 2007)

Jade Tigress said:


> *Attention All Users*
> 
> *Please keep return to the original topic and keep the conversation polite and respectful.*
> 
> ...


 

Well, I was serious about my question, if anyone knows:

*Now, what about the Kuki family being "naval samurai?"*


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## theletch1 (Oct 23, 2007)

The original topic was that ninja learned many of their techniques from pirates.


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## newtothe dark (Oct 23, 2007)

The only thing I have come up with is the kamayari looks like a naval type/pirate %-} weapon. (I posted earlier but didn't rememeber the weapons name)


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## elder999 (Oct 23, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> The original topic was that ninja learned many of their techniques from pirates.


 
Yeah, but _my_ question is legitimate and relevant: a far better explanation for a "similarity in techniques," than "ninjas learning pirate techniques."
Though I have to say that "pirate fighting arts" seem to be pretty far from something Id call "technique."
Anyway, as posted  here :


> *Kukishinden Ryu Happo Hikenjutsu - 28th Soke*
> Translation: "nine demons' divine transmission" happo hikenjutsu "eight secret weapons arts"
> Summary: This is a battlefield art. The weapons can be quite large, including spear and halberd. Techniques are done assuming the combatants are wearing armor, and the movements reflect this The techniques in Kukishinden ryu are said to have come from China and the land beyond China and is also said to be founded in the 12th century. This system was used as a naval art, and consequently the movements are designed for use on a ship that is slippery and rocking. Sensei Ueshiba the founder of modern Aikido, in his youth studied the art of Kukishinden ryu Happo Hiken jutsu from the Kuki family


And  Here:


> Part of the Kuki family has branched of to manning and comanding the Kumano navy which dealt in many maritime areas including piracy. This system have been used as a naval art, and consequently the movements are designed to be used on a ship that is slippery and rocking.




And , from Russ Eberts  website:


> The Kukis dominated the sea surrounding Japan by commanding the iron-plated battleship "The Nippon Maru" in the Shokuho period


So, if the ryuha contains naval techniques, it might seem similar to someone who was actually studying real maritime technique-though who knows how often that Disneyesque fellow has been before the mast


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## Bujingodai (Oct 23, 2007)

Alot of trends, the Ninja craze nuts in the 80's with Sho and the crew, in the 90's other things like the movie "The Craft" spawned a new foray into the occult and witchcraft and now look what Johnnie Depp has done to us all.

I have actually read alot of the connections, my Shodoshi spoke of it alot actually in class, but this website just makes me wet my pants.
I really must get myself an outfit.


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## theletch1 (Oct 23, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, but _my_ question is legitimate and relevant: a far better explanation for a "similarity in techniques," than "ninjas learning pirate techniques."
> Though I have to say that "pirate fighting arts" seem to be pretty far from something Id call "technique."
> Anyway, as posted here :
> 
> ...


I can certainly see where many techniques would have a maritime influence...especially since Japan is an island.  I could even go along with the OP had he given us a link to a website where the pirates were garbed in oriental garb.  I find it hard to believe that the bujinkan stole their techniques from Eddie Teach.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Oct 23, 2007)

forumtengu said:


> I notice that many techniques in the Bujinkan look similar to what we learn in Pirate Combat. I asked my instructor about this and he said Pirates had visited Japan and no doubt passed on many of of the techniques we use.



That's interesting. Is there any documentation to support this any other source other than your instructor's say so?


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## elder999 (Oct 23, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> I can certainly see where many techniques would have a maritime influence...especially since Japan is an island. I could even go along with the OP had he given us a link to a website where the pirates were garbed in oriental garb. I find it hard to believe that the bujinkan stole their techniques from Eddie Teach.


 

Well, yeah......


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## exile (Oct 23, 2007)

Look, we should be willing to entertain any hypothesis (especially if it's willing to drink a few beers with me as part of the entertainment), no matter how... um... superficially outlandish and bizarre, say... if it leads to an explanation for something that we didn't understand, and doesn't face any major factual contradictions, right? I mean, we're all men and women of the world, we know that all sorts of strange things have happened, etc. etc. 

But here's my problem with the hypothesis that the Bujinkan got their techs from pirates: it creates more problems for explanation than it solves. Sure, there were pirates all over the South China Sea, the Sea of Japan and the open north Pacific. Yes, they put into port in Japan. But they also put into port in Korea, China, Okinawa, Indonesia and all kinds of places. Would we not conclude, on the basis of the same reasoning as the OP, that there may/must have been substantial transmission of techniques to these places too?? And just looking at Japan: why was it just the _Bujinkan_ that got its techs from the pirates?? The communities typically associated with the ninja professions were not the most obvious ports of call for pirates; in fact, they were notoriously inaccessible. Wouldn't we expect to find the pirate arts, whatever they were, much more abundantly represented in places where pirates themselve were much more likely to frequent, such as the main southern coastal ports? In other words, why would pirate arts only show up in the Bujinkan, when the Wokou and other pirates were familiar visitors up and down the Japanese coast????

One logical answer is that these pirate arts are indeed also present elsewhere in the pirate sphere of navigation&#8212;in the KMAs, CMAs, FMAs, etc. Maybe so. But which ones? Jiujutsu techs, Bujinkan techs and CMA techs, so far as I can see, look sufficiently different from each other that those who want to extract a common MA framework that can be attributed to pirates have their work cut out for them. And the larger question is,  what _work_ does the hypothesis of pirate influence in this case do? What problem does it solve that otherwise would trouble us about the MAs? 

That's why it's... kind of... hard to keep a straight...f-f-f-face... th-thinking about this whole idea ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :roflmao:

...:gasp:... sorry... was trying hard not to crack up...b-b-but... :rofl: :rofl:...


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## TimoS (Oct 24, 2007)

bydand said:


> This is some really funny stuff, did anybody watch the "training videos"?



I just watched the epic battle of pirates vs. Ashida Kim ninjas! Unfortunately I'm at work so I can't laugh out loud, but man it was a struggle watching that! 

It MUST be a joke!


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## OkinawaPeichin (Oct 24, 2007)

exile said:


> Look, we should be willing to entertain any hypothesis (especially if it's willing to drink a few beers with me as part of the entertainment), no matter how... um... superficially outlandish and bizarre, say... if it leads to an explanation for something that we didn't understand, and doesn't face any major factual contradictions, right? I mean, we're all men and women of the world, we know that all sorts of strange things have happened, etc. etc.


 
  Why should we entertain any hypothesis that&#8217;s not supported by at least some facts. If that&#8217;s the criteria then I support the hypothesis that ninjas learned their stuff from aliens. There is nothing to support this idea but someone ninja teacher told me it was true and I believe them. 



exile said:


> But here's my problem with the hypothesis that the Bujinkan got their techs from pirates: it creates more problems for explanation than it solves. Sure, there were pirates all over the South China Sea, the Sea of Japan and the open north Pacific. Yes, they put into port in Japan. But they also put into port in Korea, China, Okinawa, Indonesia and all kinds of places. Would we not conclude, on the basis of the same reasoning as the OP, that there may/must have been substantial transmission of techniques to these places too?? And just looking at Japan: why was it just the _Bujinkan_ that got its techs from the pirates?? The communities typically associated with the ninja professions were not the most obvious ports of call for pirates; in fact, they were notoriously inaccessible. Wouldn't we expect to find the pirate arts, whatever they were, much more abundantly represented in places where pirates themselve were much more likely to frequent, such as the main southern coastal ports? In other words, why would pirate arts only show up in the Bujinkan, when the Wokou and other pirates were familiar visitors up and down the Japanese coast????


 
  [FONT=&quot]I find this whole pirate hypothesis a bit hard to swallow since I have yet to see any facts to support such a theory and also for the fact that Japan was an extremely difficult place to enter by ship. Again, I can&#8217;t even consider this idea of pirates teaching techniques let alone entering Japan unless there is at the bare minimum a scrap of information point to that direction. [/FONT]


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## Sukerkin (Oct 24, 2007)

I too find it difficult to consider a Piratical Dojo (tho' the wenches and grog would be a warming addition on a winters night ).

What I said earlier about Inland Sea pirates being utilised by 'legitimate' authority was not fever-induced hogwash tho' (as indeed it has been the case around the globe at many times and places for the outlaw to become the 'papered' tool of a government).

Still not evidence for a Pirate Dojo but it may be a useful thought experiment to consider that not many pirates were born that and not all stayed that.  So there is scope for a person of some martial talent falling from grace, drifting into piratical pursuits and then refinding favour.  

Who knows what skills transfer could happen under those circumstances?  It's an entertaining pipedream if nothing else, just like the whole Hollywood enhanced cliche of ninja, just a shade more rooted in possibility.


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 24, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> What I said earlier about Inland Sea pirates being utilised by 'legitimate' authority was not fever-induced hogwash tho' (as indeed it has been the case around the globe at many times and places for the outlaw to become the 'papered' tool of a government).


 
These pirates of the Inland Sea are they the ones known as Waco?  I know that the Waco were raiding the Chinese coast possibly on behalf of some authority in Japan.  

OkinawaPeichin makes a good point about it being difficult for foreigners to land in Japan without permission.  If some rough-looking pirates from places west rolled up and landed they would have been arrested not asked to show the guy over there in the shadows some of their moves.

Ninjas and pirates, why not add in some Roman legionares or Norse berserkers (Viking combat)?  The very notion that a pirate crew might have some sort of regimented training program they could pass on is a little strange, alright its more than a little strange, unless we are talking about using cannon.  They were so dangerous that they needed regimented training programs or the crews could be killed.

I don't know if anyone else has noticed this (internet troubles have meant that I have not been able to red the whole thread effectively) but is it possible, given the change that went through Pirate Combat in its later incarnation, that the similarity between it and Bujinkan is a result of adding karate or kobujutsu to Pirate Combat rather than some weird pirate influence from the 15th or 16th century.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 24, 2007)

Don't ask me why I keep being drawn to this thread .  I just love the notion of playing What If games with history I suppose .

In defence of pirates, as with ninja, Hollywood has done it's work on them well.  A privateer crew was indeed very disciplined and motivated, if somewhat more individualistic and democratic than a Royal Navy crew.  As to training, the members were usually already highly skilled and trained when they fell into pirate ways and they kept up those skills because their livelyhood depended on it.  Now of course I'm speaking of 'our' pirates when I say that but Ihave no reason to presume that those in Japanese waters were any less so.  You only have to read something like Turnbull's "Samurai invasion" to get an inkling of how much of a bother these chaps were.


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## Obliquity (Oct 24, 2007)

"If you are interested in authentic pirate training with qualified pirates then this is the place for you."

Qualified pirates???

Also - the female white belt training video was incredibly instructive. As was noted above, I was not aware pirates had a belt / ranking system.

Don't even get me started on swashing my buckler to attract hot wenches. Don't knock it lest you've tried it!


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## OkinawaPeichin (Oct 24, 2007)

Obliquity said:


> "If you are interested in authentic pirate training with qualified pirates then this is the place for you."
> 
> Qualified pirates???
> 
> ...



I wasn't aware Ninjas had belts either


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## jks9199 (Oct 24, 2007)

OkinawaPeichin said:


> I wasn't aware Ninjas had belts either


Nobody had belts.

That's why they had to swash their buckles... their pants kept falling down!

OK...

I know... 

Be serious.

I have been.  I doubt that, either in the East or West, there was a dedicated "pirate" school or approach to martial arts.  Instead, I suspect that they simply used the existing principles of hand-to-hand combat and ship-to-ship combat of the times.


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## OkinawaPeichin (Oct 24, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Nobody had belts.
> 
> That's why they had to swash their buckles... their pants kept falling down!
> 
> ...



I just can't see people in Japan looking to "pirates" when there were so many different and good martial arts styles already around. 
Just seems like a dumb concept to me


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## tellner (Oct 24, 2007)

OK, he shows up, makes bizarre claims which have been thoroughly demolished and says nothing else....





​


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## Sukerkin (Oct 25, 2007)

Quite right, *Tellner* but it *has* been fun n'est pas?


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## newtothe dark (Oct 25, 2007)

This has been a great thread with good jokes and some serious input as well. Much better than the flame threads much better reading!!!


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## forumtengu (Oct 27, 2007)

Yaaaaarrr I agree!!


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## jks9199 (Oct 27, 2007)

forumtengu said:


> Yaaaaarrr I agree!!


With what?

I'd love to hear more about how you feel that pirate combat is reflected in the Bujinkan training syllabus.

Heck, I'd love to hear more about this pirate combat!


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## Sorros (Oct 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> With what?
> 
> I'd love to hear more about how you feel that pirate combat is reflected in the Bujinkan training syllabus.
> 
> Heck, I'd love to hear more about this pirate combat!


If you stare into the Bujinkan symbol long enough, like the ink blot test. you can kinda sorta see a sailing ship, uh kinda sorta
Ok you gotta sorta unfocus your eyes. But it's there.


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## blood shadow (Dec 13, 2007)

ah yes teenage mutant ninja pirates.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 13, 2007)

forumtengu said:


> I notice that many techniques in the Bujinkan look similar to what we learn in Pirate Combat. I asked my instructor about this and he said Pirates had visited Japan and no doubt passed on many of of the techniques we use.




Just so happens I brought my book "An Introductory History to The Schools Of The Bujinkan" with me to the office.  I am currently reading the section regarding Kukishin/Kukishinden Ryu and it says...

"Teachings from this school were employed by Japanese seamen to help protect them against pirates."  It seems to me this was more about about using various items on deck as weapons and also defend against them.  However the only connection I see is there were pirates that needed to be repelled.

Just some of my initial thoughts as I read through the book.


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## kagemaru74 (Feb 8, 2008)

Well from what I'm reading now on "Essence of ninjutsu page 19" there s a part o f the story that seems to conferm part of this theory...The chapter is " A Talk with Takamatus Sensei".
Just for info ah ?
See you around
Kage


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