# What is an "Honorary" Black Belt?



## masherdong (Feb 24, 2005)

Hey guys,

I was wondering what does it mean when some instructors say that they will make you an "Honorary" black belt?  I am a 2nd Dan in Kajukenbo and I was told that I would be an "Honorary" black belt in EPAK and TKD by two different instructors.  Please explain.

Thanks.


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## phlaw (Feb 24, 2005)

I really think it depends on the situation, my mother was probably less than 1 year from testing for her BlackBelt in TKD when she was diagnosed with lieukemia (spelling?) and had to quit her training.  her instructor gave her an honorary black belt about 6 months later.


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## shane23ss (Feb 24, 2005)

I'm not sure as far as being an "honorary black belt" in another system, but it is usually used for someone that has "given" a lot to a particular school or association. An example would be if a mother had her child in a MA school and contributed a lot to the school during that time, such as always participating in fund raisers, providing transportation to tournaments, etc. In some cases that person would be honored with an "Honorary Black Belt" from that school. Maybe some one else has a better example, but that is how I have seen it done in the past.


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## Dronak (Feb 24, 2005)

I haven't really heard of that in the MA, but wouldn't it be similiar to a college/university offering someone an honorary degree?  I would guess that it's a way to recognize the contributions of the person, maybe to the school's benefit or just for society in general, and the school wants to reward them for it.  I'm not sure, but those are my thoughts on it right now.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 24, 2005)

Its just my opinion but I don't think an "honorary" black belt in another system means much if anything.  I'm a 2nd dan in Taekwondo but know nothing about EPAK or Kajukenbo even though some of the skills are the same.  Ours is a Korean art, what is Kajukenbo?  I think you have to learn the system the hard way-earn it- to have your name associated with it, especially with a martial art. You would probably/maybe :idunno: get to keep your black belt in our school, but you would have to learn all the material, techniques WTF style, forms, breaks, tournaments required etc. to advance from white belt up-might as well put it on to start as that "honors" our system.  TW


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## terryl965 (Feb 24, 2005)

Honorary Black Belts means nothing absolutely nothing. You might have well brought it on E-bay or at your local MA store...


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## masherdong (Feb 24, 2005)

> Its just my opinion but I don't think an "honorary" black belt in another system means much if anything. I'm a 2nd dan in Taekwondo but know nothing about EPAK or Kajukenbo even though some of the skills are the same. Ours is a Korean art, what is Kajukenbo? I think you have to learn the system the hard way-earn it- to have your name associated with it, especially with a martial art. You would probably/maybe :idunno: get to keep your black belt in our school, but you would have to learn all the material, techniques WTF style, forms, breaks, tournaments required etc. to advance from white belt up-might as well put it on to start as that "honors" our system. TW


Kajukenbo is a mixture of 5 different arts: Karate, Judo/Jiu-Jitsu, Kenpo, and Chinese Boxing.  I believe it originated in Hawaii and considered a hawaiian art.  But, I am thinking the same as you TW.  I think that I would still have to go through their system and do all the requirements that are needed to become a BB in their system.


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## ginshun (Feb 24, 2005)

I can't be sure, but it may just be that the schools want to use you as a recruiting tool.  My instructer has told me of this happening to him and frinds of his.

 As in:

 "Ya, this guy was a black belt at this other school, but he figured our school was better, and know he is a black belt here.  See how good our school is, you should come and train with us instead of those other schools."


 I don't want to acuse anyone of anything, but I have heard of it happening before, and it is something to watch out for.


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## Sin (Feb 24, 2005)

i am training in Ryu Kyu Kempo and when I get my black belt I might want to branch out and try other systems/styles, some school well allow you to keep your black belt ranking, because you have trained so long and hard to get it.  BUT will still test you white belt on up, and if you are a MAist for life and still know your stuff and train everyday, everything should be easier for you, than it was when you where first started, although you may get a little board with it


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## shesulsa (Feb 24, 2005)

I've heard of several indications where an "honorary" black belt is given.

 One would be when a student in training becomes very ill or injured and can no longer train at all.  If the instructor deems that the student has put forth a great deal of time and effort and has progressed to that level on the inside, they may award an HBB.

 Another would be when a student cannot perform ALL the physical requirements for the test due to personal physical limitation, such as bad knees (no jumping) or spinal issues.  Some instructors are quite strict in requirements and if one can't do all the moves but qualify in time and grade, then one might receive an HBB.

 Then there are HBBs that are awarded out of courtesy and as a kinship gesture (my poor wording).  Generally, these are given to political figureheads or celebrities or between black belts in different styles.

 You know, there's attaining the physical requirements for black belt, then there's being a black belt in the heart and in the mind.  If you get all three, then terriffic!  

 Instructor's choice, say I.


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## The Kai (Feb 24, 2005)

Honary Black Belt is nothing, devaules your students efforts and is gonna be an eventual yardsale find


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## James Kovacich (Feb 24, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Honary Black Belt is nothing, devaules your students efforts and is gonna be an eventual yardsale find


Not true. Maybe sometimes but not as general rule. I quit training under my brother-in-law over 10 years ago. He's since evaluated my progression in the arts "overall."

He said that he's going to give me a black belt under him based on merit. A "sense of completion" through him. No teaching certificate and it will be stated (in Japanese) the that it is based on merit.

So it is an honorary black belt but some what earned.


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## The Kai (Feb 24, 2005)

You can't or should'nt be allowed to kind of make Black Belt.  Either you earn it or you don't-that's what makes it a Black belt.


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## The Kai (Feb 24, 2005)

You should'nt be able to kinda earn a Black Belt.  Either you earned it or you did'nt.  If someone thinks they are doing you a favor they are not


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## Sin (Feb 24, 2005)

When a student that has shown  promise passes away at a time near the time of his black belt test, is a oppertunity to dedicate a black belt to He/she.  God forbid anything like that happening


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## loki09789 (Feb 24, 2005)

masherdong said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> I was wondering what does it mean when some instructors say that they will make you an "Honorary" black belt? I am a 2nd Dan in Kajukenbo and I was told that I would be an "Honorary" black belt in EPAK and TKD by two different instructors. Please explain.
> 
> Thanks.


Generally, it means that your BB in your other systems - in the instructor's eyes-  is being recognized as an equivalency of skill in the instructor's system and you are treated with the same benefits as a BB in his system.

Though you don't know the curriculum per se, you do demonstrate the skill, proficiency and character (if a prerequisite) that is similar to that in the other systems.

It's 'nice' but you have to be careful if you are promoting yourself (advertising wise) that it may come under fire if you try to list your 'honorary BB' in the other arts.

I tend to keep it conservative and only talk about the stuff that I can verify through records.


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## Sin (Feb 24, 2005)

but those of us who are not black belts, won't have to worry about that for some time


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## loki09789 (Feb 24, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> You should'nt be able to kinda earn a Black Belt. Either you earned it or you did'nt. If someone thinks they are doing you a favor they are not


Actually, the color Black is what makes it a BB.  What makes it credible is how honestly the evaluator rates your work and whether he/she sees it as BB level.

I agree that you should earn it, but does that always mean in ONE school with ONE instructor under ONE curriculum?  I don't think it has to mean that.  I joined the service and left my primary instructor for years.  While I was gone, I kept up with what I learned to the point of leaving but trained in TKD, RyuKyu Kempo, Wing CHun....none of them to any degree of expertise, but I was training as regularly as I could.

When I returned, I was given a settling in time and awared a promotion from my leaving rank to the next grade up because my 'other training' met the quality standards and satisfied the requirements from within the system.

There have been many discussions about how certain arts are similar in so many ways....why would it be wrong to recognize that a side kick that you learned in TKD is good enough to check off that block/requirement in Kenpo or another art as long as the quality is there?


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## Sin (Feb 24, 2005)

so you didn't have to test for your next belt?  Or was it just given to you because your Sensei knows the people you have trained with and it does meet the requirements.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 24, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> You can't or should'nt be allowed to kind of make Black Belt.  Either you earn it or you don't-that's what makes it a Black belt.


Thats not true unless we are talking about something differant. Recognition from a former instructor is earned in many ways, 1 being merit. And that decision is left up the instructor. Not everything is technical. A lot is based on maturity in the arts.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 24, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Actually, the color Black is what makes it a BB.  What makes it credible is how honestly the evaluator rates your work and whether he/she sees it as BB level.
> 
> I agree that you should earn it, but does that always mean in ONE school with ONE instructor under ONE curriculum?  I don't think it has to mean that.  I joined the service and left my primary instructor for years.  While I was gone, I kept up with what I learned to the point of leaving but trained in TKD, RyuKyu Kempo, Wing CHun....none of them to any degree of expertise, but I was training as regularly as I could.
> 
> ...


You have another example of merit. You still earned it, just in a differant manner.


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## ppko (Feb 24, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Generally, it means that your BB in your other systems - in the instructor's eyes- is being recognized as an equivalency of skill in the instructor's system and you are treated with the same benefits as a BB in his system.
> 
> Though you don't know the curriculum per se, you do demonstrate the skill, proficiency and character (if a prerequisite) that is similar to that in the other systems.
> 
> ...


Some people also earn honary Blackbelts for there contributions to the arts.


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## Miles (Feb 24, 2005)

Some people receive honorary black belts for contribution to the art, some for their contribution to the instructor. 

Miles


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## masherdong (Feb 25, 2005)

Interesting opinions.  Thanks for your input guys.  Please continue to post them.


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## MichiganTKD (Feb 25, 2005)

Some organizations bestow Honorary Black Belts on individuals who have contributed in many ways to make the organization better without actually being a student. Some do not. Ours does not, because I asked one time. You are either black belt or you are not. There is no "Honorary" about it. Now, if a non-student contributes to the organization in different ways, he or she will be recognized. But giving them an HBB almost insults everyone else who actually tested to earn black belts.
We have had situations similar to the ones described: students who were about ready to test became very ill or some other situation where they could not physically test, often due to health reasons. In these cases, they were allowed to paper test: They filled out the testing applications, as well as an essay detailing exactly why they were unable to test. complete with medical documentation. This, together with their Instructor's recommendation and their organizational history and credit determined whether they passed to Dan rank. it doesn't happen very often, because you get one chance to paper test. After that, you test normally or don't advance.


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## John Bishop (Feb 25, 2005)

masherdong said:
			
		

> Hey guys,
> 
> I was wondering what does it mean when some instructors say that they will make you an "Honorary" black belt? I am a 2nd Dan in Kajukenbo and I was told that I would be an "Honorary" black belt in EPAK and TKD by two different instructors. Please explain.
> 
> Thanks.


In your case I would guess these instructors have 2 reasons.  

1. They want you for a student.  It's sometimes hard for black belts to start over again as a white belt, so they're telling you that you can still be a "black belt" in their school. 

2. They want more students.  When someone comes into a school and sees only low ranking belts there, it looks like either the students don't stay long, or the school and instructor is pretty new.  
Having black belts in the class makes the school look well established, and look like the students like it enough to spend many years there.

Now hopefully these instructor's will not give you a "real" black belt until you actually learn their material and test on it.


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## shane23ss (Feb 25, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> They want more students. When someone comes into a school and sees only low ranking belts there, it looks like either the students don't stay long, or the school and instructor is pretty new.
> Having black belts in the class makes the school look well established, and look like the students like it enough to spend many years there.


I never really thought of this. Do you suggest this for a school owner just starting out, if it is possible?


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## John Bishop (Feb 25, 2005)

shane23ss said:
			
		

> I never really thought of this. Do you suggest this for a school owner just starting out, if it is possible?


My personal policy is if someone has put in the years of training to become a black belt, then I respect and acknowledge it.  
I do not believe in "cross ranking", but they are welcome to wear their black belt *along with the patch and uniform of the system they hold a blackbelt in.  *
Once they learn the Kajukenbo requirements they are welcome to test for a blackbelt in Kajukenbo.  Then they can wear a Kajukenbo uniform, patch, with a black belt. 

This has 3 advantages.  
Number 1, you don't comprimize you ethics by cross ranking.

Number 2, you make the black belt feel respected in your school.

Number 3, visitor's and color belt students will be impressed that a black belt from another school/system is interested in learning from you.

If you cross rank someone, it will backfire on you.  Because students and visitors will see a black belt in your school that dosent know your system.  Makes the quality of your instruction and promotions look kinda low.


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## GAB (Feb 26, 2005)

Hi all, 

I can honestly say this is about the best answer I have seen on this subject, regarding this thread, or any other thread  pertaining to this question...

Regards, Gary 





			
				John Bishop said:
			
		

> My personal policy is if someone has put in the years of training to become a black belt, then I respect and acknowledge it.
> I do not believe in "cross ranking", but they are welcome to wear their black belt *along with the patch and uniform of the system they hold a blackbelt in. *
> Once they learn the Kajukenbo requirements they are welcome to test for a blackbelt in Kajukenbo. Then they can wear a Kajukenbo uniform, patch, with a black belt.
> 
> ...


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## MichiganTKD (Feb 26, 2005)

If someone has put in the time and effort to reach black belt in another system, I respect that they are a black belt in, say, karate, kenpo, aikido etc. However, once you make the decision to come to my school and train under me, the fact that you are a karate black belt is irrelevant. You are not a karate black belt in my class, and you are certainly not an honorary black belt in my organization. You are a white belt and will be treated as such. You will not wear your style's uniform in my class, nor will you wear your old patch. You will wear our uniform, a white belt, and our patch. You start again. A captain in the Army is not a captain in the Marines. The two are separate. They respect each other, but they are not the same.
If I tried to wear my Tae Kwon Do uniform and belt in aikido, I would be insulting the aikido students and Instructor. I would certainly not be allowed to practice until I changed into the aikido uniform. It doesn't matter what level black belt I am. They respect it, but it is irrelevant to their class.


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## TigerWoman (Feb 26, 2005)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> ...You are not a karate black belt in my class, and you are certainly not an honorary black belt in my organization. You are a white belt and will be treated as such. You will not wear your style's uniform in my class, nor will you wear your old patch. You will wear our uniform, a white belt, and our patch. You start again...



That is the way it is in our school as well. Anyone with Kenpo, Karate, Aikido or whatever would have to start over as a white belt in TKD.  And we have a time-in requirement, two months to yellow etc. although you can double promote up to blue.  Only our uniform is worn, with our logo on the back, none other.  Because when you join our school, that student trains at our school, and represents our school at tournaments and demos.  TW


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## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2005)

I cannot believe some of the responses with this issue, if you are a Black belt in karate that has nothing to do with TKD and vice versas. New style start over END OF STORY. Who would want a honorary black belt if you need one go buy it for $3.25 cents at your local Martial Art supply store. What a joke@!!!!!!!!!:erg::rofl:[img]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon8.gif[/img][img]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon9.gif[/img][img]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon13.gif[/img][img]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon4.gif[/img]


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## lulflo (Feb 26, 2005)

I agree with some of the things posted here, Shesulsa has quite a bit of what I would have written. But I also think it could be in reference to a martial artist who has studied an all emcompassing art, of which most or all of another art's criteria is covered. May not be the same mix and match or combination of movements, but all the same kicks, punches, cuts, strikes, locks, techniques, etc are. Since it is above the black belt level where the real learning begins, if someone is established to a point that they would only be re-arranging the knowledge that they have, but not changing much if any, then it would make sense that someone could receive an HB. I don't know what my take personally would be given the choice to accept one, but if it was forced upon me, as I have noticed sometimes masters/teacher can be pretty, let's say, persuasive, then I would of course continue to learn all the information so I could earn that black belt the hard way as well.

  Farang - Larry


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## Danjo (Mar 2, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> My personal policy is if someone has put in the years of training to become a black belt, then I respect and acknowledge it.
> I do not believe in "cross ranking", but they are welcome to wear their black belt *along with the patch and uniform of the system they hold a blackbelt in. *
> Once they learn the Kajukenbo requirements they are welcome to test for a blackbelt in Kajukenbo. Then they can wear a Kajukenbo uniform, patch, with a black belt.
> 
> ...


This is the same policy that Gene LeBell has, as well as others. Even my old Shotokan instructor let a TKD guy wear his rank and uniform when he worked out with us. He wasn't considered ranked in Shotokan (as we didn't have red belts), but he was allowed to workout with the advanced students. He didn't stick around long enough to test. The idea was that at the basic level, he was not a white belt. He could punch, kick (really well), and move like an advanced student, so putting him with rank beginners (not to mention "treating him as such") would have been pointless.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 2, 2005)

I think John Bishops policy is the best I've heard. I sought advice from Hanshi about this very situation because I had a TKD blackbelt come to me with 12 years experience from Choi's Tae Kwon Do, a respectable school that goes way back. 

Hanshi told me to "reognize" his black belt (in other words he left it up to me if he should wear a black belt) but don't certify him until he knows my system at a black belt level.


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## shane23ss (Mar 2, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> My personal policy is if someone has put in the years of training to become a black belt, then I respect and acknowledge it.
> I do not believe in "cross ranking", but they are welcome to wear their black belt *along with the patch and uniform of the system they hold a blackbelt in. *
> Once they learn the Kajukenbo requirements they are welcome to test for a blackbelt in Kajukenbo. Then they can wear a Kajukenbo uniform, patch, with a black belt.
> 
> ...


Great answer Sir, and I agree completely.


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## masherdong (Mar 3, 2005)

I like that answer too.


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## Drac (Mar 3, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Honorary Black Belts means nothing absolutely nothing. You might have well brought it on E-bay or at your local MA store...


That about says it all...


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## masherdong (Mar 3, 2005)

Lot of opinions about Honorary Black Belts.  Good!  Let's hear more!


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## The Kai (Mar 3, 2005)

How would you feel if the police gave out Honorary Badges, or the Marianes would let you dress out in full dress blues??


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## shesulsa (Mar 3, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> How would you feel if the police gave out Honorary Badges, or the Marianes would let you dress out in full dress blues??


 I have seen news stories where a young person was made an honorary deputy or some such thing for acts of heroism.  And I believe Richard Nixon made Elvis Presley an honorary FBI agent, did he not?


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## masherdong (Mar 3, 2005)

Also, what about the Queen of England Knighting Celebrities?


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## shesulsa (Mar 3, 2005)

Yeah, what about that?  I'm not sure I'd want Paul McCartney, Ian McLelland and Elton John rushing to my defense, if you know what I mean....


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## Makalakumu (Mar 4, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Yeah, what about that?  I'm not sure I'd want Paul McCartney, Ian McLelland and Elton John rushing to my defense, if you know what I mean....



Hey!!!!!!  Ian is GANDALF.


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## Danjo (Mar 4, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> How would you feel if the police gave out Honorary Badges, or the Marianes would let you dress out in full dress blues??


I think that there's a difference in recognizing someone's earned rank in another system and just saying that they are a black belt. Honorary black belts have been given out like honorary college degrees many times, but that's not the same thing as letting a legit black belt workout with you in your school and not relegating him to the whitebelt class. And, incidently, the military DOES recognize rank in other branches. If you, as a Marine Sargent in uniform came upon an Army Captain in uniform on a base, you'd have to salute. That he was not ranked in your branch of the military is irrelevant.


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## 47MartialMan (Mar 5, 2005)

Not to sound offensive, but I have seen and almost been in situation(s) where a honary belt was to give as support with other hidden intentions in mind..


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