# A sad realization in my life



## Freestyler777 (May 22, 2007)

I have come to the conclusion that evlotution was right, man is a descendent of chimps, and is, essentially, a naked ape.  

All the teachings of religion and philosophy are sophism and pretentious constructs.  Man is an animal, and all our behaviours can be seen as being extremely similar to animal behaviour.  

I still believe in the teachings of yoga, and I find that every day, the teachings of modern science come closer to the ancient teachings of yoga, but I still believe that a large majority of formal religion and philosophy is hogwash.

I am not saying that this is survival of the fittest/gorilla land.  If that was the case, the whole human race would have died out a long time ago.  But we are not as high, noble, or spiritual as we think!  I guess Nietszche had some validity in his arguements about morality and nature.  

Where is this post going?  Violence is necessary.  That makes training in the martial arts valuable.  No one respects, honors, or condones nonviolence, and if you walk away from fights and challenges, you will be scandalized forever.  And to a man of honor, disgrace is a state far worse than death.  You must fight, no matter how noble or spiritual your beliefs, or you will lose your reputation.  Benjamin Franklin said, "A good reputation is like fine china- easy to break, difficult to mend".  

So I would conclude that it is essential to do judo, karate, ju-jutsu, or whatever, so people will respect you from your youth and therefore you will be an honored member of the community.  If not, people will walk all over you.  And that is simply not as meaningfula  life as one lived in strength and honor.

Martial Arts are very important for youngsters, especially the gentler, frailer ones, because it teaches them the valuable lesson of self-confidence and fortitude.

That's what I have realized today.


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## exile (May 22, 2007)

But you know, Freestyler, human beings are capable of great nobility as well. What should we say about that whole village of French Huegenots who hid Jews from the SS during the entire occupation of France, even knowing that their village would be burned to the ground and all of them shot if they were discovered? Or Johann Koss, maybe the greatest Olympic speed skater of all time, who in effect turned his back on any number of lucrative careers to become a physician serving the poorest of the poor, and their children especially, in Africa, and founded a major charitable organizationn to give them the chance to participate in athletic competitions? Or the dissidents who resisted Stalinism for no other reason than that it was the right thing to do and spent decades in Siberian exile? Or....

For every act of brutality, cruelty and moral stupidity or cravenness, you can find an act of great selfless good in human history. Our media environment glorifies the ugly aspects of human life, as a kind of distant 20th c.  analogue of the gladitorial games of ancient Rome, but if you only look at that side, how much joy in life can you have? I'm not saying that that side isn't part of what humans are capable of, but the other side has just as much breadth and depth....


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## Andrew Green (May 22, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I have come to the conclusion that evlotution was right, man is a descendent of chimps, and is, essentially, a naked ape.



That we are, and its something to be proud of.  Look at how far we have come, and think about how far we could still go. 



> Man is an animal, and all our behaviours can be seen as being extremely similar to animal behaviour.



Yup, we are animals.  Nothing wrong with that.  We also have a higher capacity for rational thought and invention, giving us something other animals do not.





> Where is this post going?  Violence is necessary.  That makes training in the martial arts valuable.  No one respects, honors, or condones nonviolence, and if you walk away from fights and challenges, you will be scandalized forever.  And to a man of honor, disgrace is a state far worse than death.  You must fight, no matter how noble or spiritual your beliefs, or you will lose your reputation.  Benjamin Franklin said, "A good reputation is like fine china- easy to break, difficult to mend".



A person can fight without being violent. Fighting can be a noble act, the reasons for it and the method you use determine this.

Sometimes violence is the answer though, and other times the best way to win a fight is a non-violent way.  But there is nothing Noble about not fighting, not standing up for yourself and your beliefs.


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## Freestyler777 (May 22, 2007)

However, exile, I am not referring to great, and very rare, acts of kindness that happen in times of crisis.  We all know that faced with a common enemy, people can be very compassionate and work together.  I'm talking about every moment of every day.  Are we always noble, spiritual, and idealistic?  Or do we act one way with our boss, another with our friends, and another to our enemies?

Just like the TV news only focuses on the .00001% of events that happen, namely the horrible acts of violence and the tragedies that happen to some unfortunate people, most people point out the faults of others and conceal those of their own.  

My original post was trying to say that all the religion and philosophy in the world can't overcome man's baser instincts and ingrained beliefs.   

What I am getting at, is what Solomon happened to have said in Ecclesiasties: "Is there one righteous man who sinneth not?"  The answer is a resounding NO.  But people will always assume the best for themselves and the worst for others.  Nietszche called this, "pre-supposition in opposite directions."

If you don't fight, you'll be scandalized and defamed, and you will never live it down.  That is a sad commentary on man's true state of maturity.  We could have all the technology, scientific advancement, and wealth possible, and still be fragile, ego-centered children who curse their enemies, curse their friends(behind their backs), and think the world of themselves, when they have no factual basis to believe such things.

Nietszche once wrote "Truth as Circe: if morality turned an animal into man, can truth turn man back into an animal?"

And Andrew, how many people will call others cowardly but themselves prudent if/when choosing to walk away?  Someone once told me, "The people who walk away are the silent majority."  But even so, people will point the finger at others, never at themselves.


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## Xue Sheng (May 22, 2007)

Wuji -> Yin and Yang -> Taiji.... it all balances out...eventually


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## CityChicken (May 22, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> However, exile, I am not referring to great, and very rare, acts of kindness that happen in times of crisis.  We all know that faced with a common enemy, people can be very compassionate and work together.  I'm talking about every moment of every day.  Are we always noble, spiritual, and idealistic?  Or do we act one way with our boss, another with our friends, and another to our enemies?



Are we *always*?  Of course not, we are all flawed.  But I see a million acts of compassion every day.  It depends on how you wish to view the world around you.  Focus on the negative and you will only see the negative.



Freestyler777 said:


> My original post was trying to say that all the religion and philosophy in the world can't overcome man's baser instincts and ingrained beliefs.



Religion is a guide to life, not an inoculation against realilty.   Yeah, humans can be monsters.  But they can also be everyday saints.  If you don't like what your instincts tell you, then look to your faith for a better answer.



Freestyler777 said:


> If you don't fight, *you'll be scandalized and defamed, and you will never live it down*.  That is a sad commentary on man's true state of maturity.  We could have all the technology, scientific advancement, and wealth possible, and still be fragile, ego-centered children who curse their enemies, curse their friends(behind their backs), and think the world of themselves, when they have no factual basis to believe such things.



So what?  I don't care what others think.  I know what is right in my heart.  Be humble and you can escape this burden.  For me, my faith gives me spiritual confidence and MA physical confidence to maintain what I know is right.

By 'fight', do you mean conflict?  You can 'fight' by avoiding conflict.  Or better yet, managing conflict so that the parties end up working together.


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## MA-Caver (May 22, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> Where is this post going?  Violence is necessary.  That makes training in the martial arts valuable.  No one respects, honors, or condones nonviolence, and if you walk away from fights and challenges, you will be scandalized forever.  And to a man of honor, disgrace is a state far worse than death.  You must fight, no matter how noble or spiritual your beliefs, or you will lose your reputation.  Benjamin Franklin said, "A good reputation is like fine china- easy to break, difficult to mend".
> So I would conclude that it is essential to do judo, karate, ju-jutsu, or whatever, so people will respect you from your youth and therefore you will be an honored member of the community.  If not, people will walk all over you.  And that is simply not as meaningful a life as one lived in strength and honor.
> Martial Arts are very important for youngsters, especially the gentler, frailer ones, because it teaches them the valuable lesson of self-confidence and fortitude.
> 
> That's what I have realized today.



If I may be permitted to read between the lines of your post and snip the paragraphs that stood out (to me) the most... I'd say that you were recently faced with the situation of fight or flight and that flight would've made you weak in the eyes who challenged you and those around THEM. 
While many of us here on this board chose to study the martial arts for whatever reason; many of us here have never come across the same scenario of having to fight. Many of us here have. Many of us continued our training and sought to better ourselves through our training and the things we learned from it. 
I personally detest, abhor, despise fighting in any shape or form (except a good video game ... but that's not real). I will go to whatever lengths, take whatever means necessary to avoid it. Yet I'm not a pacifist by any means. I carry a four and half inch folding knife in my back pocket and will use it by the training/experience I've had with it should the need arises. I will hit, kick, plummel, smash to the concrete anyone who threatens me with physical violence by whatever means and training that I have (thus far). 
However; I will not initiate violence, nor goad someone enough to initiate it for me. I also know that from my experience I will feel terrible about the whole thing afterwards (win or lose). 
Religion has a HUGE part in my beliefs stated above. Though Christ said turn the other cheek, He said that (IMO) for us to do that in the literal sense whenever we are defending our beliefs in Him. "For he that lay down his life for MY sake shall find everlasting life..." (paraphrased). He never meant for us to just simply lay down and die. Of all the battles and all the fights I've been in I do not see my self in danger of going to hell or suffering eternal damnation for them. Religion helps me find that middle ground between my own yin-yang, my own light and darkness. I am still on that journey. 
Honor? Honor... by whose definition are you relying upon to say what is Honor? Your own? Or those who challenge you/us to fight them. Honor is within each of us and is defined by each of us individually. If one man's honor is the same as yours then smile and say "great minds think alike!". If one man's honor is different than yours then adhere to your own and let him to his. If it is honorable to run and live to fight another day then by all means do so. If it is honorable to stand and fight to the death then make it count. Have a damn good reason for standing and losing your life. Is someone weaker being threatened? Is someone being outnumbered or in a disadvantageous situation? For me there is honor in helping them. 
Someone wants to scandalize you then ask yourself who is it that is doing so? Why are they doing so? How do their beliefs become superior to yours? They don't IMO. No man is my better and very few are my lesser. All men (and women) from the 10th dans to the white-belts on this board are my equals. 

Hold hope for the human race. As violent as we may seem, we still maintain the capacity of kindness and compassion. If this were not so then we would for surely pass utterly from this planet. Religion has a great deal to do with that as well. :asian: 

by the way, IMO Nietzsche was a very wise idiot.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 22, 2007)

I would love to get into a long conversation on nietzsche but I think I will wait to meet some of you in person. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





(all the more reason to go out and get a beer :drinkbeer )


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## Freestyler777 (May 22, 2007)

CityCicken, when I say honor, I mean status and reputation.  And it would be better if I didn't care about my reputation and status, but I do.  Man is a social animal that lives in a complex society.  You can't just go out on your own and do your own thing.  No man is an island.  I don't scandalize or mock anyone, but I consider myself rare.  If you didn't care about your earthly reputation, I would respect that.  But, to me, a man of honor is someone who achieves his goals and is respected in the community.

Also, even refusing to speak up for yourself may be interpreted as fear, not as nervousness, being timid, or lacking confidence.  What can be said, and potential for action are two different things, but often mistaken for each other.

MA Carver, I thank you for your post.  I feel like I have never lived down a bad reputation, and probably never will.  And to some extent, I can deal with not being 'honored' by some, but begrudgingly respected by others (my training buddys at the judo dojo I train at).  I just feel like all the years i've spent studying Nietzsche, Dao, and Zen were useless, if others cannot appreciate someone's adherence to nonviolence.  I practice nonviolence.  I think that is totally respectable.  There is justified violence, of course, like self-defense, a war waged for good reasons, a cop doing his job, killing animals for food, killing insects that pose a threat to human life....  And if forced to defend my life, I would do as best as I could.  But the commonly held perception that if you walk away, others will infer that you are afraid is baffling to me.  If they're mind-readers, they should be on TV or something!

And Mr. Van Cise, if you're ever on long island, I'd like to shake your hand.  :ultracool


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## Nomad (May 22, 2007)

Freestyler777 said:


> I have come to the conclusion that evlotution was right, man is a descendent of chimps, and is, essentially, a naked ape.
> 
> All the teachings of religion and philosophy are sophism and pretentious constructs. Man is an animal, and all our behaviours can be seen as being extremely similar to animal behaviour.


 
Yep!  True on many different levels.



Freestyler777 said:


> Where is this post going? Violence is necessary. That makes training in the martial arts valuable. No one respects, honors, or condones nonviolence, and if you walk away from fights and challenges, you will be scandalized forever. And to a man of honor, disgrace is a state far worse than death. You must fight, no matter how noble or spiritual your beliefs, or you will lose your reputation. Benjamin Franklin said, "A good reputation is like fine china- easy to break, difficult to mend".


 
You and I have very different views on the meaning of honor and the importance of reputation.  To me, honor comes from within, from right actions, and is not something that anyone else can take away (though it can be easily given away!)  

Disgrace is something I can bring on myself by failing to meet my obligations (to family, work, society, etc.) but is not something that could be forced on me by someone insulting me or thinking I am weak for not wanting to fight them.  The former is just wind from the mouth of a baboon (well... ~99.7% baboon anyway), and the latter is a fairly pointless exercise wherein at least one person will get hurt.  My ego isn't worth it.

It has taken me a long while, but I think I am now reaching the point where I realize that it matters very much what the important people in my life (my wife, children, parents, friends, etc) think of me, and almost nothing what anyone outside this group thinks.  I am not planning a run for office (being an honest person, I wouldn't have a chance!), so my reputation means very little.

I would fight to protect myself or others, especially those close to me.  I will not fight out of ego or a desire to prove myself to others (especially strangers or people I don't like to begin with!).


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## Sukerkin (May 22, 2007)

Excellent discourse that I shall revisit when it isn't time to go to bed .

One other viewpoint to add to the pot on the subject of the utility (or otherwise) of violence.  In my childhood/early youth, I was a very aggressive individual and it took extreme measures from my father (plus a heavily religious upbringing) to knock that out of me.  It sounds like an oxymoron that my dad 'beat fighting out of me' but it's true.  

So when I started high school I looked like easy meat because I had essentially been 'thrashed timid' in that I had a non-aggressive demeanour.  However, my core personality was still there, such that when bullies attacked I could neither run away nor submit either.  

So, they would knock me down and I would get up.  They'd knock me down again and I'd get up again.  They'd go to hit me again and you could see the realisation in their eyes that 'this chap wont fight but he wont run either'  {of course there is always the possibility that they saw the banked fires of rage in my own eyes :lol:}.

I think it took about a week for my reputation to spread through the whole school.  They were a long five days but by their end I'd earned the honour of never being seriously troubled at school again (and when I was there was always someone on hand who would intercede on my behalf).

Now I know that 'school' isn't exactly the same as the 'street' but chosen non-violence is still a viable principle.


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## Steel Tiger (May 22, 2007)

Violent action is most certainly part of our biology, our hardwiring if you like.  It is part of defence system, that 'fight or flight' response.  Violence, or the potential for violence, has allowed that most important part of our biology, our brains, to develop and conjure fantastic things, both aggressive and non-aggressive.

Our minds have gone far beyond the shackles of their biology, however.  No longer do we think simply of food, defence, and procreation.  Now we can ponder the why and the how.  Because of this we can, generally quite easily, choose to override these hardwired drives.  Thus we can be non-violent.  We can walk away, especially if the situation is untennable.

As for no respect for non-violence.  Unfortunately I think this is generally true, but there are some stellar examples of non-violence.  The one that most readily springs to mind is Ghandi and his campaign of non-violent protest against the British.  They stuck to thier principles, held their nerve, and ultimately succeeded.


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## Carol (May 22, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would love to get into a long conversation on nietzsche but I think I will wait to meet some of you in person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nietzche over a beer?  Hmmmmm....I need to really get on Mike and May about an IRT seminar in Salem, Mass.


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## Hand Sword (May 22, 2007)

Having come off a semester with intensive study into Biological Anthropology one correction to the opening post. We humans are NOT decendants of chimps. (a misconception regarding evolutionary theory) We both have a common ancestor though.


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## Steel Tiger (May 23, 2007)

Hand Sword said:


> Having come off a semester with intensive study into Biological Anthropology one correction to the opening post. We humans are NOT decendants of chimps. (a misconception regarding evolutionary theory) We both have a common ancestor though.


 
Its an unsurprising misconception given that 'the descent from apes' calumny has been leveled at evolution ever since Darwin wrote _Origin of the Species_.


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## Hand Sword (May 23, 2007)

Thinking about the posts above, I will agree with the pride that our species has come a very long way indeed! A long way, and against incredible odds, where we were very close to extinction in the very near past. We should all be proud of our ancient ancestors!


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