# Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments



## miguksaram (Oct 6, 2009)

Please help me understand this concept as I have heard it so many times and just don't get it.  It goes like this... I don't like kids with black belts because it devaules what I have achieved....OR....I don't like people who have only taken a 12 minute test to get their black belt because it undermines all that I worked for....OR....my black belt accomplishment is far greater than the black belt from XYZ school because I had to test 10 hours to get it and they only test an hour.

People if you are really that insecure about the value of your black belt because of what others have done (or not done) to earn theirs...then by all means take it off and go back to white belt and for the love of whatever you hold sacred try to get more self-esteem out of your lessons this time around.  So what if some six year old has a black belt...how does that affect what you learned or how you train?  Big deal if Big John took a 60 hour test for his black belt and you took a 20 minute test, what more did he get out of his that you didn't get out of yours?  

If there is actual logical explaination please tell me and help me understand all the bitching I keep hearing about this.


----------



## CoryKS (Oct 6, 2009)

I'd be curious to know if any of those who feel that junior black belts 'devalue' the rank are also among those who post that a black belt is 'just something to hold your pants up'.  And if not, do those who espouse this philosophy also devalue the rank by minimizing the achievement?  Do those black belt holders who consider themselves 'perpetual beginners' devalue the rank?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 6, 2009)

I think some of it may be based on the lack of differentiation between training.

Here's what I mean...

You can get a BA from Harvard.  You can get a BA from a local college.  You can get a BA from a 'school' that gives degrees to whomever writes them a check.

Does the BA from the imaginary college make a BA from Harvard less valuable?  No.  Do people look with disfavor on the BA degree because of people who have one from the lesser school?  No.

In other words, people can differentiate between a degree from Harvard (or whatever well-respected school) and the same degree from a less-respected school.  They get it.

However, people tend to want to view a black belt as a symbol of equality.  That is, a black belt from school A is the same as a black belt from school B.  A black belt given a juvenile is the same as black belt given to an adult.

Are they the same?  I don't think so.  Therefore, it does not bother me that somebody is prancing around in their black belt from McDojo's School of Really Tough Bad Guy Warriors is a better (or worse) martial artist than the black belt from O'Sensei's Serious School of Tough Guys And We Really Mean It.  They're different.


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 6, 2009)

Here it is ina nutshell: People tend to believe that to have value as an adult you must be as suporior as one, like the adults that believe a child cannot be in college at age 10, These are the types that undermine the Martial Art world. Believe it or not childern are being recuirted at age 8-10 in all sports not just academically but physically as well. Society needs to remember by the time some childern reach 14 they have the body of a grown man and probaly the mind too.  My value has nothing to do with anybody else, I was honored when my GM gave me my BB and said I earned it what others think has no bearing on me or anyone from my school. I give what people have earned and hopefully they will continue to grow and search out what I was not able to teach them, you see I know I am good but I also know there is so much more to learn.


----------



## dortiz (Oct 6, 2009)

Drives me crazy every time I read that. Your achievment is your achievment, period.


----------



## TKD_Father (Oct 6, 2009)

dortiz said:


> Drives me crazy every time I read that. Your achievment is your achievment, period.


Concur


----------



## KELLYG (Oct 6, 2009)

Reminds me of a bumper sticker that I saw and agree with "Shut up and drive"..  I think that people are spending too much time looking around at what other people have around their waists.  They just need to "shut up and train".   I personally do not care how long it to student A, how old student B is or how long it took them to get their "belt", and it really does not matter what color my belt is.   It is just not material to my training.  Just give me a spot in line and lets get to work, because what ever my belt level is, there is always something to work on.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2009)

I must be insecure then.  I've told this story before on MT.  I was talking about tae kwon do with a neighbor of mine and she asked me what my rank was.  I told her second dan, and she exclaimed, "My 12 year old niece is one too!"  

I no longer mention my rank in TKD publicly.  If that makes me shallow, so be it.  The problem to me is one of equivalency in the eyes of the public.  I know what I went through to earn that 2nd dan in the eighties and I refuse to believe any 12 year went through a course of similar rigor.  We've discussed this topic ad nauseum on MT, and I've concluded neither side will ever change their mind about awarding rank to children.    

In my case I cannot and will not ever award a dan belt to anyone less than 16-17.  Within my area of influence, I will continue to promote the philosophy that a dan belt is a symbol of technical expertise both physically and mentally and one not lightly granted.  It is NOT a rank for someone who has 'learned' the basics or one who is now 'ready to truly learn' as I so often read here on MT.  I believe a black belt is someone who has the goods, someone with real skill that can be marshalled and projected at any given point.  I realize my viewpoint is a declining one.  Such a pity.


----------



## Steve (Oct 6, 2009)

I know that this may come as a shock to you guys, but I think I disagree with almost every one of you. 

Speaking to the Harvard BA metaphor, people would have an understandable concern if their specific degree was being devalued.  If Harvard began opening satellite campuses throughout the country (or world?) and offering degree programs with let's say "relaxed" standards, this would specifically devalue your own (and everyone's) Harvard degree.  This is particularly true if your own degree was earned in relatively close proximity to the perceived (or real) lowering of Harvard's standards.

In the same way, if I earn a black belt in BJJ now, it may be seen as less of an accomplishment than it might have been 10 years ago.  And in 10 years from now, the standards may indeed have slipped.  This is very specific to my own acheivement and should I ever aspire to teach and in turn promote my own students, it would be to my benefit to protect the value of my acheivement.  

While I think that perspective should be maintained, I can completely understand how people can be concerned over the state of grading or promotion within their specific organizations.


----------



## ATC (Oct 6, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I know what I went through to earn that 2nd dan in the eighties and I refuse to believe any 12 year went through a course of similar rigor.


The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.

The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.


----------



## Stac3y (Oct 6, 2009)

Most people think a black belt (no matter who is wearing it) means you've got serious skills. The general public is in awe of black belts; they have no clue that there some schools have less stringent or more stringent standards. Most martial artists have their own opinions (correct or not) of different styles or schools, and of the requirements a student must meet to acquire a black belt. 

As far as I'm concerned, there are good black belts that come from crappy schools, and crappy black belts that somehow squeaked by in decent schools, just as there are people who graduated from college with excellent educations and people who passed with all Ds and never set foot in the library. I try to assess a person's individual ability based on observation of that person, not on preconceived notions about their school or style. I also tend to respect anyone who has the perseverence to get to the black belt, until/unless they show me that I shouldn't. With any type of education or training, you get out of it what you put into it.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2009)

ATC said:


> The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.
> 
> The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.



We knocked each other around the dojo during the eighties.  Blood and bruises expected without question.  Belt exams often ended with someone puking or fainting.  Blood, sweat, and tears...  

I doubt your son is doing that, is he?  Different times.


----------



## Steve (Oct 6, 2009)

ATC said:


> The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.
> 
> The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.


But a 7 year old black belt will not be able to reliably defend himself from an untrained, hostile 30 year old male who has an intent to harm.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 6, 2009)

ATC said:


> The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.
> 
> The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.




I KNOW that your 12 year old cant take the BEATING i took and get back up and still keep going.

PHYSICAL TOUGHNESS

MENTAL TOUGHNESS

kids dont have either

i dont care how far they can run or how fast, they cant take a beating and they cant give a beating and they ARE NOT the same as adult black belts

Dancing alone, you are RIGHT, in the 80s when i started, your BB test didnt end till you either puked or passed out. And then you had to be willing to get back up and continue.

kids cant do that, and anyone that thinks they can is fooling themselves.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Oct 6, 2009)

Here's something to think about...
Why do we call it a "test" at all? I don't test. I demonstrate what I know. I know what is expected of a given rank, and I know what I can do. If the two don't match, I don't expect to wear that rank. It's less a test than it is a private demonstration.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 6, 2009)

Dirty Dog said:


> Here's something to think about...
> Why do we call it a "test" at all? I don't test. I demonstrate what I know. I know what is expected of a given rank, and I know what I can do. If the two don't match, I don't expect to wear that rank. It's less a test than it is a private demonstration.



I call it a test because there's a very real possibility I will fail you if you don't meet the standard I expect to see during a test.  As I noted here before, I HAVE failed some students up for their shodan.  

Now I don't invite my students to test until I'm (mostly) sure they will pass, but given the depth of my curriculum there's a definite possibility one might freeze up and forget his material or just screw up beyond redemption.  

I think failure is part of life.  Nothing wrong with failing a test as long as you regard it as just another obstacle in life to surmount later.


----------



## Tames D (Oct 6, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> It is NOT a rank for someone who has 'learned' the basics or one who is now 'ready to truly learn' as I so often read here on MT. I believe a black belt is someone who has the goods, someone with real skill that can be marshalled and projected at any given point. I realize my viewpoint is a declining one. Such a pity.


 
My viewpoint as well. A black belt better be able to "bring it on".


----------



## Marginal (Oct 6, 2009)

ATC said:


> The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.


That's true, but the average 30 year old barely moves. 



> The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.


I suppose it depends on how you define that. Can they do the moves? Yes. Can they match up well against an adult? No way. If you go by just ability to perform the moves, it works, but once you factor in using the moves effectively, the kids aren't in the race anymore.

A 5 year old kid that can run a 4 minute mile would totally lose in a fight against an adult. (Even a sedentary 30 year old.) The mental's not there, and they don't really have the physical component either. They lack mass, range, and the strength that an adult can muster. 

That said, I think the kids represent a lot of potential once they mature to the point where they can actually employ their techniques effectively. I think the belt's quality is determined by the end product. If the kids are trained well and they're serious about the training, I can't see how they'd devalue the belt in the long run. 

For example: A youngish 4th dan (say 20's) that can perform all the techniques vs a 50+ year old 4th dan with a gut who can't actually perform most of the techniques. Would anyone actually take the older guy more seriously as an instructor?


----------



## msmitht (Oct 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I know that this may come as a shock to you guys, but I think I disagree with almost every one of you.
> 
> Speaking to the Harvard BA metaphor, people would have an understandable concern if their specific degree was being devalued.  If Harvard began opening satellite campuses throughout the country (or world?) and offering degree programs with let's say "relaxed" standards, this would specifically devalue your own (and everyone's) Harvard degree.  This is particularly true if your own degree was earned in relatively close proximity to the perceived (or real) lowering of Harvard's standards.
> 
> ...



Your BJJ reference is way off. As a Purple belt with over 6 years in the art I can tell you that the standards have not slipped. Maybe in some schools that are run by blue belts who wear black belts for "Business" reasons that is the case...but no one stays there very long. If you train for the required 10 years and are proficient then your black belt in BJJ can never be devalued.
As to the TKD reference....well...we have all seen our fair share of bad Black belts both child and adult. If they suck and you promoted them then yes, you do suck and you are bringing yourself down. If they are not from your school then it has nothing to do with you. Get over it.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Oct 6, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> Most people think a black belt (no matter who is wearing it) means you've got serious skills. The general public is in awe of black belts; .


 

No.


They aren't.

Not any longer.

That's the problem, and the cause is the situation under discussion right now.It isn't about what our acievements mean to "us", it's the decline in public perception that hurts us, they see the absolute, borderline sacreligious joke that mainstream MA has become and, being the general public without discerning eyes, believe it to be all we have.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 6, 2009)

Well its ether this or folding laundry..........


----------



## Stac3y (Oct 6, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> No.
> 
> 
> They aren't.
> ...



Well, maybe you hang out with different parts of the general public than I do. Or maybe it's just a Texas thing. I suppose I should have said, "In my experience..." but then, since that's what we all are speaking from, I thought it unnecessary. My bad.


----------



## Steve (Oct 6, 2009)

msmitht said:


> Your BJJ reference is way off. As a Purple belt with over 6 years in the art I can tell you that the standards have not slipped. Maybe in some schools that are run by blue belts who wear black belts for "Business" reasons that is the case...but no one stays there very long. If you train for the required 10 years and are proficient then your black belt in BJJ can never be devalued.
> As to the TKD reference....well...we have all seen our fair share of bad Black belts both child and adult. If they suck and you promoted them then yes, you do suck and you are bringing yourself down. If they are not from your school then it has nothing to do with you. Get over it.


Dude.  I don't think you understood my point, but I'm on a phone and typing more Than a sentence or two is more than I cam do right now.  I probably didn't explain myself well but it'll have to wait.


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Please help me understand this concept as I have heard it so many times and just don't get it. It goes like this... I don't like kids with black belts because it devaules what I have achieved....OR....I don't like people who have only taken a 12 minute test to get their black belt because it undermines all that I worked for....OR....my black belt accomplishment is far greater than the black belt from XYZ school because I had to test 10 hours to get it and they only test an hour.
> 
> People if you are really that insecure about the value of your black belt because of what others have done (or not done) to earn theirs...then by all means take it off and go back to white belt and for the love of whatever you hold sacred try to get more self-esteem out of your lessons this time around. So what if some six year old has a black belt...how does that affect what you learned or how you train? Big deal if Big John took a 60 hour test for his black belt and you took a 20 minute test, what more did he get out of his that you didn't get out of yours?
> 
> If there is actual logical explaination please tell me and help me understand all the bitching I keep hearing about this.


 
While certain things in the arts annoy the hell out of me, and while I do complain about them, I also realize theres nothing I can do about it.  There are many Kenpo people who do things that IMO, are less then proper, sure I call them on it, and it pisses them off, but oh well.  In the end, they're the ones that will have to pay the piper, so to speak, and have to face the questions.

On the other hand, it does in a way, make the art look bad.  So, when people act like an *** in the Kenpo world, and I tell people I do Kenpo, I now have to make an excuse for the others.  People are going to paint the picture that they see.  If I look at TKD and see a bunch of kids running around who arent old enough to drive yet they're wearing 3rd degree Black Belts, frankly I think its a friggin joke, but I'm left with the impression that all TKD dojos are a joke, that they're mcdojos, and from what I've seen, many are.  For those that are in TKD that dont fall into that category, I for one, would be ashamed of what the others are doing.


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I know that this may come as a shock to you guys, but I think I disagree with almost every one of you.
> 
> Speaking to the Harvard BA metaphor, people would have an understandable concern if their specific degree was being devalued. If Harvard began opening satellite campuses throughout the country (or world?) and offering degree programs with let's say "relaxed" standards, this would specifically devalue your own (and everyone's) Harvard degree. This is particularly true if your own degree was earned in relatively close proximity to the perceived (or real) lowering of Harvard's standards.
> 
> ...


 
Speaking of BJJ, heres a question....now, I'm not as active in my BJJ school as I used to be, but seems to me, the 10yr time frame is still in effect for BB, right?  So, if thats the case, then unless someone is on the last level as a BJ Penn, then I doubt the average person will get a BB as quick as you'd see someone in TKD get one.  In other words, if a child starts BJJ classes, are they going to be black belt level in 2yrs?  I'd have to say no.  So, here you have a very popular art...BJJ...which draws in many people, due to the popularity, the UFC, etc., and those people seem to be content waiting that length of time.  Hey, maybe there are BJJ mcdojos too, I dont know, but from what I've seen, the norm is 10yrs.  If people can wait that long in BJJ, why not wait that long in TKD, or any other art?


----------



## MJS (Oct 6, 2009)

ATC said:


> The physical is easy and most 12 year olds can run circles around your average 30 year old. My son at 7 years old was running an 8 minute mile and now at 10 is doing it in 7 flat. I cannot do this. We have 6 year olds doing under 10 minutes.
> 
> The rigors of the MA are far less demanding on a child than an adult. It is the mental and the philosophical that separate the child from the adult not the physical.


 
Question for you. Do you feel that that is all that matters for the test?  All that matters is that the child can make it thru the test and not have to worry about how the material looks, whether or not they can explain it, teach it, etc.?  I mean, IMO, theres more to it than how well a kid can do in competition or whether or not they can get thru the physical part of the test.  

I guess what I'm trying to say is...if someone can slap on a 3rd degree on a 12yo kid, that same kid better be able to know that material inside and out.


----------



## ATC (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> We knocked each other around the dojo during the eighties. Blood and bruises expected without question. Belt exams often ended with someone puking or fainting. Blood, sweat, and tears...
> 
> I doubt your son is doing that, is he? Different times.


Uhhhh...Yes. We all are, not just him. I know everyone wants to think that their rose smells the best but there are many doing what we all do and more. Just as there are many that we do more than but none of us are king of the mountain.


----------



## ATC (Oct 7, 2009)

MJS said:


> Question for you. Do you feel that that is all that matters for the test? All that matters is that the child can make it thru the test and not have to worry about how the material looks, whether or not they can explain it, teach it, etc.? I mean, IMO, theres more to it than how well a kid can do in competition or whether or not they can get thru the physical part of the test.
> 
> I guess what I'm trying to say is...if someone can slap on a 3rd degree on a 12yo kid, that same kid better be able to know that material inside and out.


I am only giveing one example. He already teaches and assists. All black belts are required too, even Jr. black belts. I have already stated that adults have a better grasps of the concepts and principle but kids at 12 that have been doing and studying since 4 will be light years ahead once they reach adult hood. Like I stated it is good to learn and master the physicle while young all the while learning the philosophies and concepts. That is just how regular school is. You start as a child and build as you age and grow. But guess what? Some kids excel at school and learn much faster than others. Some even go to college at 10 and 11.


----------



## ralphmcpherson (Oct 7, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> No.
> 
> 
> They aren't.
> ...


I live in australia so maybe we are alittle different over here but I find the general public still hold a black belt in very high esteem. Even my mates have unrealistic views of what a black belt means , I think they think I could take out a whole room of people with a single kick , its actually quite funny.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 7, 2009)

At the end of the day, you are responsible for only 1 person's successes and failures. 
That's You.
Doesn't matter what anyone else does or doesn't do.
12,000 other people buy a black belt, you earn yours. 
Feel proud at your accomplishment, don't feel cheapened by their lack of the same.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 7, 2009)

I don`t give a pair of fetid dingo`s kidneys what people outside the Dojo think of my training. 

However I am opposed to mcdojos, not because they "cheapen" the arts, but because what they sell is BS.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

ATC said:


> Uhhhh...Yes. We all are, not just him. I know everyone wants to think that their rose smells the best but there are many doing what we all do and more. Just as there are many that we do more than but none of us are king of the mountain.



Given that your son  seems to be younger than 13, it surprises me that he trains in a fashion where hard physical contact is expected as a matter of course.  I'm not talking about an occasional hard whack across the hogu.  The way I trained in the eighties we wore nothing other than footpads and hand guards.  Punching to the face was common and developed.  Plenty of bloody noses and fat lips, the occasional black eye and knocked out tooth or even a KO period.

I can't fathom a boy training in that fashion in today's litigious environment.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2009)

ATC said:


> I am only giveing one example. He already teaches and assists. All black belts are required too, even Jr. black belts. I have already stated that adults have a better grasps of the concepts and principle but kids at 12 that have been doing and studying since 4 will be light years ahead once they reach adult hood. Like I stated it is good to learn and master the physicle while young all the while learning the philosophies and concepts. That is just how regular school is. You start as a child and build as you age and grow. But guess what? Some kids excel at school and learn much faster than others. Some even go to college at 10 and 11.


 
IMO, it seems as if you're lumping all young kids into the same group.  Again, I may be wrong, but thats the way it seems.  So, going on your logic, a kid that started at 4, is going to be light years ahead.  Ok...so on that same logic, that young kid is going to be capable of comprehending the material at that young age?  If they're going to supposedly be 'light years' ahead of everyone else, then that tells me, that you're going to be explaining the fine points of something, to a kid thats not old enough to drive.  

There will always be exceptions to the group, and yes, Ive seen it with my own 2 eyes, when I would teach.  But, that number is so small, that it doesn't outweigh the others that are not 'light years' ahead.  

Out of curiosity, and I may have missed it, but how old is your child that you're describing?  They teach a class on their own?  If so, what is the age group that they're teaching?


----------



## JDenver (Oct 7, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's what I mean...
> 
> You can get a BA from Harvard.  You can get a BA from a local college.  You can get a BA from a 'school' that gives degrees to whomever writes them a check.
> 
> Does the BA from the imaginary college make a BA from Harvard less valuable?  No.  .



What if BA's didn't come with the school they were received at?  One from Harvard means more than the local college because you KNOW where it was obtained.  Black belts aren't like this at all.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

MJS said:


> While certain things in the arts annoy the hell out of me, and while I do complain about them, I also realize theres nothing I can do about it. There are many Kenpo people who do things that IMO, are less then proper, sure I call them on it, and it pisses them off, but oh well. In the end, they're the ones that will have to pay the piper, so to speak, and have to face the questions.
> 
> On the other hand, it does in a way, make the art look bad. So, when people act like an *** in the Kenpo world, and I tell people I do Kenpo, I now have to make an excuse for the others. People are going to paint the picture that they see. If I look at TKD and see a bunch of kids running around who arent old enough to drive yet they're wearing 3rd degree Black Belts, frankly I think its a friggin joke, but I'm left with the impression that all TKD dojos are a joke, that they're mcdojos, and from what I've seen, many are. For those that are in TKD that dont fall into that category, I for one, would be ashamed of what the others are doing.


 
WOW! I guess I need more time in rank to make comments like this!


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

It's funny I read these post about rank and dan certificates and all I hear is nobody cares about where or from who your dan certificate comes from but, god forbid a six year old should share the same rank as us old timers who trained back in the day!
So we will lable them a McDojang or something else to show other that no little 70 pound  kid could do what i have done!
I was reading this article on Erine Reyes Jr. I said that when he was in his teens and was competing he was beating adult fighters, so the tournament promoters started the age brackets to keep him out of the adult divisions.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Why those little sons of *******!


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Given that your son seems to be younger than 13, it surprises me that he trains in a fashion where hard physical contact is expected as a matter of course. I'm not talking about an occasional hard whack across the hogu. The way I trained in the eighties we wore nothing other than footpads and hand guards. Punching to the face was common and developed. Plenty of bloody noses and fat lips, the occasional black eye and knocked out tooth or even a KO period.
> 
> I can't fathom a boy training in that fashion in today's litigious environment.


 
Back in the day boxers didn't wear gloves. And just look at football back then and now. Their were alot of great boxers and football players back then, but they didn't last very long in their sports. Times change, safety systems and gear requirements change. Are you really a better Martial art person because you got the crap kicked out of you and lost a tooth? I know alot of guy's who have had the same thing done to them in bars on Saturday nights who have never trained in the martial arts!

With all that said, I don't like the kids with Black belts ether, But it seems that they are the large portion of the school that will commit to training and reach that level. I do Poom for them, not Dan.


----------



## dortiz (Oct 7, 2009)

Actually yes. Thats why those guys from bar fights often can beat well trained fighters. They are used to taking and giving punishment in a live environment. The best laid plans change when you get clocked for real. Training for real combat is different than fighting points and in marshmellow suits.
Just as sparring sport style is a key element in learning timing and distance, real contact takes that to the next level as well.

Dave O.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> WOW! I guess I need more time in rank to make comments like this!


 
Did I hit a nerve?  As I've said, in the end, its the person giving the rank out and the person getting it, that have to live with the comments that other people make.  I just find it very funny that people have lost the value of the belt.  People act like its something that should be handed out after X amount of time is put in, or as long as the person does well in a tournament, or trains 10 times a week.  People can be shown something and say, "Yeah, I got it!" but do they really?  Is it so perfect, that no errors can be found?  Are there stances really that sharp?  If someone wants to make some leeway for a lower rank, thats fine, but once you start testing for the upper ranks, especially BB level, that person should look like a BB, not a yellow belt.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 7, 2009)

Stac3y said:


> As far as I'm concerned, there are good black belts that come from crappy schools, and crappy black belts that somehow squeaked by in decent schools, just as there are people who graduated from college with excellent educations and people who passed with all Ds and never set foot in the library.


 
Reminds me of a joke...What do you call the guy who finished dead last in medical school?.....Doctor.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> It's funny I read these post about rank and dan certificates and all I hear is nobody cares about where or from who your dan certificate comes from but, god forbid a six year old should share the same rank as us old timers who trained back in the day!
> So we will lable them a McDojang or something else to show other that no little 70 pound kid could do what i have done!
> I was reading this article on Erine Reyes Jr. I said that when he was in his teens and was competing he was beating adult fighters, so the tournament promoters started the age brackets to keep him out of the adult divisions.


 
So by your logic, how long would that 6yr old have to train to get BB?  Of course, if you've read some of the other posts, and I know I've said this, but I'd rather see a 12yr old Jr. BB, instead of an adult BB strapped on them.  At least they have something that is 1 step away from black, while continuing to mature and understand what it means to wear the belt.

I guess thats too much to ask though.

Oh and as for Reyes Jr....as I've also said, there are always exceptions to the rule.  Is every single kid that starts training, going to be the next Ernie Reyes Jr.?  I doubt it.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Are you really a better Martial art person because you got the crap kicked out of you and lost a tooth? I know alot of guy's who have had the same thing done to them in bars on Saturday nights who have never trained in the martial arts!



You probably don't want to hear this, but in my opinion, DEFINITELY.  None of the technical skills we work to develop mean anything if in the heat of battle we take a hard shot and fall to pieces.  Toughness is a required attribute for fighters.  I suppose you can be a martial artist without being a fighter, but in my case I prefer to be both for myself personally and also for my students.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

MJS said:


> So by your logic, how long would that 6yr old have to train to get BB? Of course, if you've read some of the other posts, and I know I've said this, but I'd rather see a 12yr old Jr. BB, instead of an adult BB strapped on them. At least they have something that is 1 step away from black, while continuing to mature and understand what it means to wear the belt.
> 
> I guess thats too much to ask though.
> 
> Oh and as for Reyes Jr....as I've also said, there are always exceptions to the rule. Is every single kid that starts training, going to be the next Ernie Reyes Jr.? I doubt it.


 
POOM BELT....... That what under 15yrs get at my school. No nevre hit, I just remember being slapped down by admin for saying something similar! Rules are rules!


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> We knocked each other around the dojo during the eighties. Blood and bruises expected without question. Belt exams often ended with someone puking or fainting. Blood, sweat, and tears...
> 
> I doubt your son is doing that, is he? Different times.


 
My oldest, 15, just took his Jr. BB test in August.  I can say that the 80's are alive and well at our school. ...not so much blood during classes, but definetly bruises.  Testings for BB will definetly have at least one person hitting the puking, fainting, blood, sweat and tears phase.  

I tested for my 1st dan in Shorei at the same time as he tested for his Jr. BB.  I hit 3.5 of those 5 issues during the test...just barely squeeked by the fainting.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Reminds me of a joke...What do you call the guy who finished dead last in medical school?.....Doctor.



The joke works both ways.

What do you call a paper black belt?  A victim.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> My oldest, 15, just took his Jr. BB test in August.  I can say that the 80's are alive and well at our school. ...not so much blood during classes, but definetly bruises.  Testings for BB will definetly have at least one person hitting the puking, fainting, blood, sweat and tears phase.
> 
> I tested for my 1st dan in Shorei at the same time as he tested for his Jr. BB.  I hit 3.5 of those 5 issues during the test...just barely squeeked by the fainting.




Good stuff.  Thumbs up from me.  Frankly I never understand why anyone would be proud of their black belt if they didn't sweat and bleed for it.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> POOM BELT....... That what under 15yrs get at my school.


 
You'll have to forgive me, as I'm not up to par on the TKD terms.  I'm assuming poom is similar to a Jr. BB?  




> No nevre hit, I just remember being slapped down by admin for saying something similar! Rules are rules!


 
I was simply voicing an opinion, which last I checked, was fine, as long as it was within the boundaries of the forum rules.  But by all means, if you or anyone else feels that my post in question was out of line, hit the RTM.  Just because I'm an Admin here, doesn't make me exempt from the rules.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> You probably don't want to hear this, but in my opinion, DEFINITELY. None of the technical skills we work to develop mean anything if in the heat of battle we take a hard shot and fall to pieces. Toughness is a required attribute for fighters. I suppose you can be a martial artist without being a fighter, but in my case I prefer to be both for myself personally and also for my students.


I respect that and I think that is what all instructors want, but these days not everyone is going to (at a young age) be able to handle that kind of training. So lets say some 6yr old trains for 10 years. He learns the basics really good and is preatty good at sparring. Now he is 16yrs old. His training then really picks up. Starts sparring with the adults and is doing really well, he is a good black belt. At 6,7,8 & 9yrs he really wasn't every good but he stuck with it. my point is without some type of for a lack of better term " reward" for his years of training, he probably would have not stayed training to become the person he is a 16yrs.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 7, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> That's the problem, and the cause is the situation under discussion right now.It isn't about what our acievements mean to "us", it's the decline in public perception that hurts us, they see the absolute, borderline sacreligious joke that mainstream MA has become and, being the general public without discerning eyes, believe it to be all we have.


 
If you are going to go off public perception, they see MMA as more mainstream since that has higher tv coverage.  Where as the "Kiddy" black belts seem to hurt the image so does the bloody beat downs of MMA that they see on TV.  

I am finding more and more that the parents who come into the school are actually researching the schools prior.  The internet has helped, and yes hindered, a lot.  They come in with actual questions outside of price.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I respect that and I think that is what all instructors want, but these days not everyone is going to (at a young age) be able to handle that kind of training. So lets say some 6yr old trains for 10 years. He learns the basics really good and is preatty good at sparring. Now he is 16yrs old. His training then really picks up. Starts sparring with the adults and is doing really well, he is a good black belt. At 6,7,8 & 9yrs he really wasn't every good but he stuck with it. I point is without some type of for a lake of better term " reward" for his years of training, he probably would have not stayed training to become the person he is a 16yrs.



I understand your perspective.  It's just one I avoid entirely by teaching in a 'semi-closed door' setting.  I'm selective about whom I teach and I only have 1 minor, a 16-year old, in my classes.  Of course, I make no effort to earn my living through this.  The reward I get is a small cadre of athletic training partners/students for myself, to push me and to make me improve myself as a martial artist.

Back to the original topic: I don't like the general public thinking my black belt is the same one that their twelve year old got from attending classes for 2 years at the local strip mall dojang.  It's the same as the degree analogy several of you brought up.  I hold a BBA and a BS from a well-regarded public university in the US.  I also busted my butt in school to graduate with a high gpa with honors.  For job seeking purposes since I am now years out of school, only the fact that I hold a degree matters for the resume screeners in human resources, and they might hold me roughly equivalent to someone else who did the bare minimum and graduated with a 2.5 GPA.  But guess what?  I know the difference.


----------



## Steve (Oct 7, 2009)

msmitht said:


> Your BJJ reference is way off. As a Purple belt with over 6 years in the art I can tell you that the standards have not slipped. Maybe in some schools that are run by blue belts who wear black belts for "Business" reasons that is the case...but no one stays there very long. If you train for the required 10 years and are proficient then your black belt in BJJ can never be devalued.
> As to the TKD reference....well...we have all seen our fair share of bad Black belts both child and adult. If they suck and you promoted them then yes, you do suck and you are bringing yourself down. If they are not from your school then it has nothing to do with you. Get over it.


Okay I want to get back to this.  Other people have touched on what I was trying to get at, as well.  

It's specifically _because _I don't want the standards in BJJ to slip that I'm concerned about who holds what rank, even if they aren't training at my school.   Getting back to the college degree analogy, BJJ used to be taught on what amounts to one campus.  Now, it's being taught worldwide.  Where there used to be, maybe, 20 schools, there are now thousands.  Where the focus used to be self defense, now, often, the focus is competition.  And making money has always been a big part of it.  Helio Gracie was a visionary, but he was also all about self promotion.

I am addicted to jiu jitsu and think it's, bar none, the best MA for me.  But that's no reason to have blinders on about what it is or what it might become if we don't keep an eye on things.  In fact, I would argue that painting a rosy picture of where BJJ is now and where it's headed will only speed it on its way.  

This is a particularly interesting topic now since Rio was announced as the 2016 site of the Olympics and BJJ has as good a chance as anything to be chosen as a demonstration sport.  We've seen the damage that the Olympics have done to Judo and to TKD relevant to this very thread.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Until people (instructor) have to follow some kind of guide lines, there are always going to be this problem. I do the poom certificate, but not the belt. Students in my school and that are Kukkiwon know that it is poom rank, but anyone outside wouldn't. I have given a alot of thought in changing it back to the red & black poom belt. It's more traditional anyway.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 7, 2009)

MJS said:


> If I look at TKD and see a bunch of kids running around who arent old enough to drive yet they're wearing 3rd degree Black Belts, frankly I think its a friggin joke, but I'm left with the impression that all TKD dojos are a joke, that they're mcdojos, and from what I've seen, many are. For those that are in TKD that dont fall into that category, I for one, would be ashamed of what the others are doing.


Why should I be ashamed?  Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them.  I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care? 

I have had people come up and say the usual "My 10 year old son/daughter is a 2nd dan at XYZ school, they really enjoy it there."  I simply tell them I'm glad they enjoy it and to feel free to stop by and work out with us for fun sometime.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Please help me understand this concept as I have heard it so many times and just don't get it. It goes like this... I don't like kids with black belts because it devaules what I have achieved....OR....I don't like people who have only taken a 12 minute test to get their black belt because it undermines all that I worked for....OR....my black belt accomplishment is far greater than the black belt from XYZ school because I had to test 10 hours to get it and they only test an hour.
> 
> People if you are really that insecure about the value of your black belt because of what others have done (or not done) to earn theirs...then by all means take it off and go back to white belt and for the love of whatever you hold sacred try to get more self-esteem out of your lessons this time around. So what if some six year old has a black belt...how does that affect what you learned or how you train? Big deal if Big John took a 60 hour test for his black belt and you took a 20 minute test, what more did he get out of his that you didn't get out of yours?
> 
> If there is actual logical explaination please tell me and help me understand all the bitching I keep hearing about this.


I will start off by saying that whether or not eight year olds have black belts does not reflect at all on my having one.  It does reflect on their school and their instructors.  Even if an eight year old poom student were given a black belt at the same school that I train in, it does not affect me.  I know that it is a poom rank and that he or she is in the childrens' class.  That student having the belt does not change my ability or accomlishment.

As to the logical explanation, it is more a question of perceived fairness.  'I worked very hard, trained daily and did so for several years under a merciless hard core master to *earn* my black belt, and that jerk down the street gives them to eight year olds because they are cute' pretty much sums it up.

As for the kiddie belts devaluing adult BB's, the issue is that the general public sees the many kiddie belts and now associates the adult BB's into the same category.

I do not agree that it devalues the adult's BB, but I do understand the logic, and there is a degree of truth to it.  Where it falls short is that the general public has no clue what is involved in a BB test and assumes that the kids must all be a mini-Chuck Norris whose chin-fists simply have not developed.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Why should I be ashamed? Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them. I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care?
> 
> I have had people come up and say the usual "My 10 year old son/daughter is a 2nd dan at XYZ school, they really enjoy it there." I simply tell them I'm glad they enjoy it and to feel free to stop by and work out with us for fun sometime.


I agree with you, though I do care to an extent, mainly because in the long run, it is hurting the industry.  

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

> Why should I be ashamed? Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them. I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care?



Would you care if tomorrow a news story appeared where a child black belt was kidnapped and slain by some monster?  Perhaps negative attention then becomes focused on the martial arts industry with resulting legislation and regulation.  Obviously, I pose an extreme example, but I think the initial scenario could very well happen today.  It would be very sad if some child came into harm's way and all of his 'training' availed him not.  It would be even sadder if he had an unrealistic idea of his effectiveness from his inflated rank and this helped lead him to his demise.  

Like or it not, the black belt rank puts into the public's mind that its wearer can hold his own in a fight.  And, I've never seen a child black belt yet who didn't think that his belt was the real thing.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Would you care if tomorrow a news story appeared where a child black belt was kidnapped and slain by some monster? Perhaps negative attention then becomes focused on the martial arts industry with resulting legislation and regulation. Obviously, I pose an extreme example, but I think the initial scenario could very well happen today. It would be very sad if some child came into harm's way and all of his 'training' availed him not. It would be even sadder if he had an unrealistic idea of his effectiveness from his inflated rank and this helped lead him to his demise.
> 
> Like or it not, the black belt rank puts into the public's mind that its wearer can hold his own in a fight. And, I've never seen a child black belt yet who didn't think that his belt was the real thing.


 
I would care about the child more than the fact he was a BB.  If negatvie press was to play I don't think it would come down on the industry as a whole so much as the school he went to.

It is very sad when adults come into harms way and their training fails them as well.  Is it the school's fault, style's fault, or the student's fault?  A lot of different factor at play.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Would you care if tomorrow a news story appeared where a child black belt was kidnapped and slain by some monster? Perhaps negative attention then becomes focused on the martial arts industry with resulting legislation and regulation. Obviously, I pose an extreme example, but I think the initial scenario could very well happen today. It would be very sad if some child came into harm's way and all of his 'training' availed him not. It would be even sadder if he had an unrealistic idea of his effectiveness from his inflated rank and this helped lead him to his demise.


I do not see that scenario coming to pass. You may recall a thread that linked to a news story about a special forces soldier being beaten to death in a bar in a fight with some guy over a Jimmy Buffet song. This is very sad, but being special forces means that you know how to fight, not that you are invincible.  Likewise, a blackbelt is supposed to know how to fight in a particular style.  Nothing more.



dancingalone said:


> Like or it not, the black belt rank puts into the public's mind that its wearer can hold his own in a fight.


Define holding one's own. I can hold my own in a fight with most people, but ultimately, I can still be beaten. 



dancingalone said:


> And, I've never seen a child black belt yet who didn't think that his belt was the real thing.


 
Define real thing. If the kid has learned all of the curriculum, can perform his or her technique with power and snap, and has obviously been taught well, but happens to be only twelve, is his or her belt somehow not the real thing?

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> It is very sad when adults come into harms way and their training fails them as well.  Is it the school's fault, style's fault, or the student's fault?  A lot of different factor at play.



Yes, and even you try to solve any problem you start by eliminating the variables you can until you find the original cause or a solution that will remedy it.  My modest proposal is to make no new black belt, child or not, unless he has useful, *utilizable* skills.  

You see, miguksaram, for many of us, it's not necessarily just about the embarrassment of seeing our rank watered down by shady instructors.  It's also about maintaining the honor, respect, and integrity of the dan rank itself.  Two different faces of the same coin, I suppose.  Handing out black belts like candy cheapens the rank for the rest of us who earned the rank honorably.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

I think if you look around you will find countless stories or children who were involved in the martial arts at sometime in their lives as well as adults who study as children, success story of how their MA studies prevented them from becoming a victom. I think the general public knows the differents between an adult BB and a child that hold Poom or Dan rank. It's really not that hard to tell the difference! But then again, I had a demo a few years backIt was at a fourth of July event where the whole city was involved. Anyway I had made four bricks out of form and spray painted them gray. They really looked real! Anyway, I had a 6 year old walk up and hammer fist them. It when over great and was planned to be a joke, but the next day on the front page of the paper.......


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

How do you paste pictures here?


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is very sad, but being special forces means that you know how to fight, not that you are invincible.  Likewise, a blackbelt is supposed to know how to fight in a particular style.  Nothing more.
> 
> Define holding one's own. I can hold my own in a fight with most people, but ultimately, I can still be beaten.



It's surely hard to put into words but easy enough to discern in person.  To me a black belt has applicable skill in bare hands combat.  He has certain elements of timing to see an opening along with the physical prowess to connect with a devastating blow to the same target.  A black belt should have experienced exhaustion and pain and be able to fight through those feelings at least for a short time.  You should be able to step onto the floor with a black belt for a friendly match and be see crisp technique, efficient movement, effective defense.

I don't think it's hard to recognize a black belt in person after seeing him move.  It should be by definition an elite rank that few reach, keeping in mind that one can reach functional status in one's system before making black.  





> Define real thing. If the kid has learned all of the curriculum, can perform his or her technique with power and snap, and has obviously been taught well, but happens to be only twelve, is his or her belt somehow not the real thing?
> Daniel



Well, you are a supporter of the poom belt.  I've never seen a poom/junior black who didn't think his black belt symbolized a certain effectiveness in fighting.  

I realize you're big on the curriculum = rank tier concept.  I even use it myself, listing certain techniques for each rank level in my school.  That said, I will never promote anyone to even brown belt unless they 1) have useful power 2) are sufficiently aware and attuned to be able to take advantage of certain openings an opponent poses and 3) have a certain amount of spirit within them (I believe TKD people would say indomitable spirit).

It's not just about the belt charts to me.


----------



## Nolerama (Oct 7, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Anyway I had made four bricks out of form and spray painted them gray. They really looked real! Anyway, I had a 6 year old walk up and hammer fist them. It when over great and was planned to be a joke, but the next day on the front page of the paper.......



It's a joke. I get it. But did you make any attempt to correct the local newspaper on the error/ or even tell the photojournalist that the "bricks" were foam?


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

*The Following 4,294,967,295 Users Say Thank You to NPTKD For This Useful Post*

*What is this.....*


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> It's a joke. I get it. But did you make any attempt to correct the local newspaper on the error/ or even tell the photojournalist that the "bricks" were foam?


 

The very next day! And Man were they pissed! I Tried to tell them that it was meant for fun , but they never posted a correction. I would post the picture  of the front page but I don't know how.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Here I Changed my Pic (avitar)


----------



## Nolerama (Oct 7, 2009)

Why didn't you tell the photojournalist that the bricks were fake?

There's a level of irresponsibility on both ends of that situation, and I think it's kind of hypocritical to comment on the validity of youth belts, but then go on and think it's really cool to have a kid break fake bricks on a newspaper.

Just my .02.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Lastly, it was windy and half of the bricks blow away after he broke them... I mean come on!


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Why didn't you tell the photojournalist that the bricks were fake?
> 
> There's a level of irresponsibility on both ends of that situation, and I think it's kind of hypocritical to comment on the validity of youth belts, but then go on and think it's really cool to have a kid break fake bricks on a newspaper.
> 
> Just my .02.


 

I didn't know that they were even their take pic's. I would have had I known. It didn't make me look good after also.


----------



## Nolerama (Oct 7, 2009)

Right on. Just wondering about the motivation behind doing the fake brick thing in the first place.

I'm confused. Could you please clarify: You're against youth BBs, right?

But you do publicity stunts like spray painting foam "bricks" so a kid can break them in front of a lot of people (I'm assuming to make you "look good"), and write that off as a "joke".

But if you were holding an exhibition in front of a large group of people; and your young students were there, with people taking pictures... wouldn't you be right next to the camera man? I mean, just out of general safety of your students? I'm sure you would be. Because that's what responsible adults do when children are placed in their charge.

But no mention of brick fakeness to the photog?

Meh...


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Relax......... I never said I was against anything. It was a joke! Some people got it, some people didn't...... Thats how jokes work.:wavey:


----------



## Nolerama (Oct 7, 2009)

Thanks for the clarification.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Why should I be ashamed? Granted I'm not proud of what they are doing, but I'm not ashamed either...I fall under the I really don't give a crap about them. I did not get my rank from them, so why should I care?


 
Ever hear of the saying, "Guilty by association."?  Doesn't matter whether or not you give a crap about them or not, fact remains, just like many people in the world have a distorted view of the martial arts, people are going to see the mcdojos of whatever art, and assume that all TKD or Kenpo or whatever, is like what they assume it is.  

I know I'll never change the Kenpo guys who get off on having people 'ohh and ahh' over their rank, but it still makes me think, "Look at this guy.  Look at what he does.  He's making all Kenpoists look bad" thus what I said before...guilty by association.



> I have had people come up and say the usual "My 10 year old son/daughter is a 2nd dan at XYZ school, they really enjoy it there." I simply tell them I'm glad they enjoy it and to feel free to stop by and work out with us for fun sometime.


 
And kudos to you, if your school doesnt fall into the mcdojo group.  As I said, there probably are schools out there that are not bad, that dont hand out rank like candy, and again, kudos to them, but I also can't believe that those that're not mcdojos, dont sit there and hate the fact that people will assume that all dojos are like the candy givers.


----------



## MJS (Oct 7, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I would care about the child more than the fact he was a BB. If negatvie press was to play I don't think it would come down on the industry as a whole so much as the school he went to.
> 
> It is very sad when adults come into harms way and their training fails them as well. Is it the school's fault, style's fault, or the student's fault? A lot of different factor at play.


 
Please take your blinders off, please.  The average non martial artist is clueless about the arts.  I've been asked what I train in, I tell them, and they ask me if its like TKD or what Bruce Lee did.  So yes, it does come down to the entire industry because people dont know any better.  

And yes, people are under this assumption that the BB is something that empowers you, that makes you superman, but it doesnt.  Because the people handing out the belts lead people to think that, because many insts. dont give a **** about the end result, as long as they're getting paid.


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> We knocked each other around the dojo during the eighties.  Blood and bruises expected without question.  Belt exams often ended with someone puking or fainting.  Blood, sweat, and tears...
> 
> I doubt your son is doing that, is he?  Different times.



The adults puke my son never does...We train in Las Vegas outside at 120 degrees...We get adults from other schools on occasion come and train with us...Not one has ever made it through a M-W-F 2 hour training session at the track...He is 12...Sometimes they run 5 miles and go though an hour of kicking drills...some times they run 10 300's and an hour of kicking drills almost all the people he trains with are in their 20's and he can keep up with all of them...BTW his second degree black belt test was 13 hours with a 2 month work up also with adults...


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 7, 2009)

he was NINE


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 7, 2009)

yep, nine when he got his second degree....I know it is crap!!! and his instructor should be slapped and sport tkd sucks...the usual stuff...oh yeah i have to send you a video for you to believe me...I know the drill...the invitation still stands if you are in Las Vegas you can stop by and train with us...I think you would be surprised...I am sure that we could benefit from your considerable expertise


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 7, 2009)

go ahead and think you NINE YEAR OLD is the equal of an adult

*shudder*


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 7, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> It's surely hard to put into words but easy enough to discern in person.  To me a black belt has applicable skill in bare hands combat.  He has certain elements of timing to see an opening along with the physical prowess to connect with a devastating blow to the same target.  A black belt should have experienced exhaustion and pain and be able to fight through those feelings at least for a short time.  You should be able to step onto the floor with a black belt for a friendly match and be see crisp technique, efficient movement, effective defense.


I can certainly agree with that.



dancingalone said:


> don't think it's hard to recognize a black belt in person after seeing him move.  It should be by definition an elite rank that few reach, keeping in mind that one can reach functional status in one's system before making black.


For the most part, I agree.  I do not necessarily agree with the 'elite rank' definition though.  There should be a single, challenging standard (one that Twin Fist would approve of, just to clarify what I mean by challenging).  One either meets it or they do not.  If 100 people come through the school who all work for and earn it, and meet the standard, then 100 BB's is fine.  If only one of those hundred can meet the standard, then so be it.  One BB.



dancingalone said:


> , you are a supporter of the poom belt.  I've never seen a poom/junior black who didn't think his black belt symbolized a certain effectiveness in fighting.


Yes, I support the poom rank, but not giving out black belts with it.  I have stated many, many times that *poom rank students should be wearing poom belts and poom doboks *(assuming that you are talking Kukkiwon taekwondo).



dancingalone said:


> I realize you're big on the curriculum = rank tier concept.  I even use it myself, listing certain techniques for each rank level in my school.  That said, I will never promote anyone to even brown belt unless they 1) have useful power 2) are sufficiently aware and attuned to be able to take advantage of certain openings an opponent poses and 3) have a certain amount of spirit within them (I believe TKD people would say indomitable spirit).
> 
> It's not just about the belt charts to me.


I am not sure where you get the idea that I am "big" on the curriculum = rank concept.  I feel that the equation should be reversed: Rank = curriculum, and rank is determined by *proficiency* in the curriculum learned thus far.  In fact, I have stated in many posts that I am big on proficiency.

Essentially, my school of thought is that when you are proficient in your white belt curriculum, then you can test for your first colored belt.  When you are proficient in the curriculum for that level and more polished on that of the previous, then you may test for your next colored belt.  If that process takes ten years, so be it.  If a mondo dedicated uber martial arts wiz can do it three years, so be it.

Belts are only a marker of the student's progress.  No chart is involved.

Daniel


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 7, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> yep, nine when he got his second degree....I know it is crap!!! and his instructor should be slapped and sport tkd sucks...the usual stuff...oh yeah i have to send you a video for you to believe me...I know the drill...the invitation still stands if you are in Las Vegas you can stop by and train with us...I think you would be surprised...I am sure that we could benefit from your considerable expertise


 WOW! your starting to come around! I like it!:yoda:


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 8, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> For the most part, I agree.  I do not necessarily agree with the 'elite rank' definition though.  There should be a single, challenging standard (one that Twin Fist would approve of, just to clarify what I mean by challenging).  One either meets it or they do not.  If 100 people come through the school who all work for and earn it, and meet the standard, then 100 BB's is fine.  If only one of those hundred can meet the standard, then so be it.  One BB.



We're on the same page.  If you have 100 elite martial artists then they all should be black belts.  In my opinion, that's not how things bear out in reality though.  Many schools will eventually reward someone who puts in the time and effort with a black belt after years of study.  Perhaps he might not be physically gifted and he just took a long time to learn the material.  In the end, he learned the curriculum but he's by no means proficient.  In fact, more than a few of the color belts are sharper in execution than he is.  What's the call on promotion for a guy like this?  In my school, he would stay a kyu student forever.  Some would call it harsh, but I would call it keeping true to a high standard.



> Yes, I support the poom rank, but not giving out black belts with it.  I have stated many, many times that *poom rank students should be wearing poom belts and poom doboks *(assuming that you are talking Kukkiwon taekwondo).



Ah, I always forget the poom belt is colored differently.  I suppose I really meant more a junior black belt, where it is understood that the rank is not a full, permanent adult one, but where the child still wears a black belt.  This practice is more common in my area than a poom belt.



> I am not sure where you get the idea that I am "big" on the curriculum = rank concept.  I feel that the equation should be reversed: Rank = curriculum, and rank is determined by *proficiency* in the curriculum learned thus far.  In fact, I have stated in many posts that I am big on proficiency.
> 
> Essentially, my school of thought is that when you are proficient in your white belt curriculum, then you can test for your first colored belt.  When you are proficient in the curriculum for that level and more polished on that of the previous, then you may test for your next colored belt.  If that process takes ten years, so be it.  If a mondo dedicated uber martial arts wiz can do it three years, so be it.
> 
> Belts are only a marker of the student's progress.  No chart is involved.



I could have worded my statement better.  You believe in an objective measurement of technical skill and knowledge to qualify for rank.  I generally agree with that, but I wanted to make the point that there should be more criteria for rank than just techniques listed on a chart.  Things like power, precision, prowess at actual fighting... These attributes are difficult to put onto a chart to fit to every single person, but subjectively as a teacher one can definitely tell whether a student has them or not.


----------



## MJS (Oct 8, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> yep, nine when he got his second degree....I know it is crap!!! and his instructor should be slapped and sport tkd sucks...the usual stuff...oh yeah i have to send you a video for you to believe me...I know the drill...the invitation still stands if you are in Las Vegas you can stop by and train with us...I think you would be surprised...I am sure that we could benefit from your considerable expertise


 
Can I ask you some serious questions?  Here goes....

1) How old was your son when he started training?

2) What is the time frame between each grade?

3) If someone were to ask your son an in-depth, technical question on TKD, be it history, or technical questions about self defense or kata, would he be capable of providing the same in-depth reply?

4) Once the upper black belt ranks of TKD are reached, what is the average time frame between ranks?  In other words, time between 3rd and 4th, 4th and 5th, 5th and 6th, etc.?

5) Is there a minimum age for the upper BB ranks?  I ask this because given your sons young age and his current rank, it could be possible for him to be in his 20s or 30s and be a high rank TKDist.

I'm trying to be sincere with my questions, in an effort to better understand where you and other TKDists, who share these beliefs, are coming from.  I hope to get a sincere reply in return.

Mike


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 8, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> We're on the same page. If you have 100 elite martial artists then they all should be black belts. In my opinion, that's not how things bear out in reality though. Many schools will eventually reward someone who puts in the time and effort with a black belt after years of study. Perhaps he might not be physically gifted and he just took a long time to learn the material. In the end, he learned the curriculum but he's by no means proficient. In fact, more than a few of the color belts are sharper in execution than he is. What's the call on promotion for a guy like this? In my school, he would stay a kyu student forever. Some would call it harsh, but I would call it keeping true to a high standard.


Well, there are people who play violin for decades but never make the cut for the orchestra.  They are decent players and could probably be killer in a new age or country band, but they do not have the precision needed for playing in the orchestra.  And more often than not, they know it and are okay with it.  They continue to play violin because they simply love playing the violin.

There are people who learn a martial art good enough to defend themselves but who are never going to make the K-tigers.

Having said that, a BB should be proficient.  The violinist that I mentioned above is proficient with the instrument.  Just not orchestral quality.  I will address proficiency at the end of my reply.



dancingalone said:


> Ah, I always forget the poom belt is colored differently. I suppose I really meant more a junior black belt, where it is understood that the rank is not a full, permanent adult one, but where the child still wears a black belt. This practice is more common in my area than a poom belt.


The poom belt is Kukkiwon specific.  The problem that I have with poom rank students wearing a black belt is that there *is* a specific poom belt and an official procedure for converting the rank from poom to dan.  

Before a poom existed, a black belt meant dan rank.  A poom is not a dan rank.  If your system uses the Kyu/Dan system and you do not hold a dan rank, then you should not wear a black belt.  Period.

Junior blackbelt is a rather nebulous term.  It could mean that the student is first dan but only ten or it could mean that the student is some sort of nominal keup, dan bo, or simply a first kyu second level. 



dancingalone said:


> I could have worded my statement better. You believe in an objective measurement of technical skill and knowledge to qualify for rank. I generally agree with that, but I wanted to make the point that there should be more criteria for rank than just techniques listed on a chart. Things like power, precision, prowess at actual fighting... These attributes are difficult to put onto a chart to fit to every single person, but subjectively as a teacher one can definitely tell whether a student has them or not.


Agree completely.  The curriculum is only one part of the equation.  The student must be proficient in the curriculum.  

So, proficiency:  Proficiency is separate from being physically gifted.  I want to see the student demonstrate proficiency, not athletics.  Meaning that when performing forms, strikes and blocks should have reasonable snap and power; enough power that the strike would actually hurt an opponent and that a block would actually stop an attack.  The form should be done with precision: a kick that is supposed to be aimed at the knee should be aimed at the knee, not some nebulous, mid-leg-ish area, and not at the sky.  

A guy who does Koryo, for example, who aims the first set of double kicks skyward is demonstrating athletics.  That is it.  As impressive as that is, he is not showing an understanding of the form.  The first kick is to collapse knee.  The second is aimed at the solar plexus and is meant to take down the now crippled opponent.  No matter how much power and snap he has, if he misses the target entirely, then it is meaningless.  Firing a .44 into the air makes a big, cool sound.  But it is also a waste of ammunition.  

Aside from reasonable power and snap, I want to see the student handle themselves in free sparring.  I want to see them exert control over the pace of the fight, maintain their composure, remain precise.  Even if the student is sparring a fifth dan uber-Chuck and has to fight defensively, their proficiency should be clearly seen.

There are tons of people who can do every form and execute every strike and block and who may look pretty doing so.  But do they understand the techniques?  Can they use them against a resisting opponent?  

Lastly, is their ability to spar entirely dependent upon them having a certain degree of physical prowess?  In other words, is the guy sloppy, but always wins because he is tall and built like Bret Hart when Bret was in his prime and simply can punish you because he is really, really strong?  If so, then he is not proficient; he is just really strong and athletically gifted.  But when that deserts him, as it will eventually, without proficiency, he will start getting beaten by really sharp low belts.

Ultimately, a martial art is supposed to be for life, not just for your athletic prime.  Techniques are supposed to be done correctly because if done correctly, they do not require you to muscle through them.  A person with substantial technical command of their art can remain formidable well past their prime and competent into their old age.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 8, 2009)

> Lastly, is their ability to spar entirely dependent upon them having a certain degree of physical prowess? In other words, is the guy sloppy, but always wins because he is tall and built like Bret Hart when Bret was in his prime and simply can punish you because he is really, really strong? If so, then he is not proficient; he is just really strong and athletically gifted. But when that deserts him, as it will eventually, without proficiency, he will start getting beaten by really sharp low belts.


Sloppy wouldn't cut it in my book.  That said unathletic and unfit doesn't either.  Strength and flexibility is the key to much of "hard" style martial arts such as tae kwon do or karate.  It seems counterproductive to me to allow someone who is not fit to advance in rank.  I'm not talking about someone who might have gained a few extra pounds.  I'm talking about those who can't lift even half their body weight or those who have poor range of motion due to a lack of limberness.



> Ultimately, a martial art is supposed to be for life, not just for your athletic prime. Techniques are supposed to be done correctly because if done correctly, they do not require you to muscle through them. A person with substantial technical command of their art can remain formidable well past their prime and competent into their old age.


Agreed, but it's obviously better to marry strength and speed with technical prowess if you want the top results.  A perfect form side kick does nothing for me if it can't even so much as move an 80 lb heavy bag.

As a side note, have you ever thought about all the legendary masters who survived to an old age and their technique transcended strength and speed?  Every one of them that I know about all learned their art when they were young and strong.  See Ueshiba from Aikido, see "Judo" Gene LeBell.  Heck, Mas Oyama was still robust into his advancing years.

I think there's a trap in saying you don't have to be strong and fit to practice martial arts (not saying this is your position by the way).  It clearly helps.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 8, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Sloppy wouldn't cut it in my book. That said unathletic and unfit doesn't either. Strength and flexibility is the key to much of "hard" style martial arts such as tae kwon do or karate. It seems counterproductive to me to allow someone who is not fit to advance in rank. I'm not talking about someone who might have gained a few extra pounds. I'm talking about those who can't lift even half their body weight or those who have poor range of motion due to a lack of limberness.


I agree; there is definitely a level of fitness needed to effectively perform a hard style.  If your conditioning still prevents you from being able to fully perform the range of techniques by the time you get to black belt, then you are not ready.




dancingalone said:


> Agreed, it's obviously better to marry strength and speed with technical prowess if you want the top results. A perfect form side kick does nothing for me if it can't even so much as move an 80 lb heavy bag.
> 
> As a side note, have you ever thought about all the legendary masters who survived to an old age and their technique transcended strength and speed? Every one of them that I know about all learned their art when they were young and strong. See Ueshiba from Aikido, see "Judo" Gene LeBell. Heck, Mas Oyama was still robust into his advancing years.
> 
> I think there's a trap in saying you don't have to be strong and fit to practice martial arts (not saying this is your position by the way). It clearly helps.


Once again, complete agreement.  While I do think that there are benefits to one taking up a martial art in middle age or older, starting at that point means that you are working with a middle aged or older body and need to accept that you will have limitations and may never be able to execute the techniques at a black belt level.  Now, there are older people who can start an art and get themselves into good enough condition to perform at a BB level, but people should be realistic about their physical condition.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 8, 2009)

MJS said:


> Please take your blinders off, please. The average non martial artist is clueless about the arts. I've been asked what I train in, I tell them, and they ask me if its like TKD or what Bruce Lee did. So yes, it does come down to the entire industry because people dont know any better.
> 
> And yes, people are under this assumption that the BB is something that empowers you, that makes you superman, but it doesnt. Because the people handing out the belts lead people to think that, because many insts. dont give a **** about the end result, as long as they're getting paid.


 
Yes, they maybe clueless but I did not say they knew it all.  Most people in our area tend to do a bit of research before coming to a school or they tend to ask a lot of questions such as "What's the difference in this art compared to XYZ school down the street".  

I guess if we are going to play this scenario to its full effect, a good reporter would not just say John Doe was an 11 year black belt in martial arts.  They tend to be a bit more thorough when putting in such details, such as Johny Doe was an 11 year old black belt at XZY Karate.  

I still stand by my earlier statement, I would not care so much about if the kid had a black belt or not.  I would be more concerned about the fact it was kid.  Don't think I would read it as "Oh well another kid was kidnapped and slain and OH MY GOD HE WAS A BLACK BELT???!!!!".

Oh, and I have not been asked, nor have I ever been asked in my 29 years, if what I did is the same thing as Bruce Lee.


----------



## KELLYG (Oct 8, 2009)

Sloppy wouldn't cut it in my book. That said athletic and unfit doesn't either. Strength and flexibility is the key to much of "hard" style martial arts such as tae kwon do or karate. It seems counterproductive to me to allow someone who is not fit to advance in rank. I'm not talking about someone who might have gained a few extra pounds. I'm talking about those who can't lift even half their body weight or those who have poor range of motion due to a lack of limberness

dancingalone,
I guess, according to you I would have to give my Black Belt back.  I do suffer from lack of flexibility in my hips at lateral motion.  I am not lazy and have worked very hard to improve this but compared to others in my school I am not flexible.  I have partnered stretched. I have had ladders in my living room with pulleys to try to improve flexibility.  I have stretched using various pieces of furniture in my house. I have used ART (active release therapy) to try to over come this particular limitation. Just ain't going to happen.  Even as a kid I was limited in flexibility in that one regard.  I guess it's back to white belt for me!


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 8, 2009)

KELLYG said:


> dancingalone,
> I guess, according to you I would have to give my Black Belt back.  I do suffer from lack of flexibility in my hips at lateral motion.  I am not lazy and have worked very hard to improve this but compared to others in my school I am not flexible.  I have partnered stretched. I have had ladders in my living room with pulleys to try to improve flexibility.  I have stretched using various pieces of furniture in my house. I have used ART (active release therapy) to try to over come this particular limitation. Just ain't going to happen.  Even as a kid I was limited in flexibility in that one regard.  I guess it's back to white belt for me!



I have no idea what your personal limitations are, Kelly.  I will say an inability to kick highly actually wouldn't be a problem for me since my system of karate is much more friendly than tae kwon do in this regard.  Waist high kicks are fine as long as they're good ones.

Where I speak about limberness is with the total range of movement with one's body.  We do extensive ukemi in my school from a variety of positions and if you can't do a fireman's roll (essentially a front roll executed from a running and leaping start in the air), you just won't get past green belt with me.

The standards I have on strength and limberness aren't arbitrary.  It's because you need these things in certain measures to be able to execute specific movements or techniques I require from my students.  Let me give you another example, one requiring strength:  I ask all my students to be able to perform tomoe-nage on a full-sized man at least 200 lbs.  Below is a video so you know the throw I am talking about.

[yt]XZPpeVzTt-E[/yt]

Tomoe-nage can definitely be completed by someone much weaker and smaller than the attacker, but there's a minimum baseline.  It's doubtful a nine-year-old for example could successfully execute the throw on a 200 lb man from a standing position.


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> go ahead and think you NINE YEAR OLD is the equal of an adult
> 
> *shudder*



I have never said that nor do i think that it is the case...


----------



## KELLYG (Oct 8, 2009)

dancingalone

Cool,  I dig what you are saying now.   As for the drill in the video the two legged version is something that I have done before.  I have not tried the one legged version, looks interesting though.   Front falls, back falls, left side right side rolls, reverse left and right side rolls drop falls and throws are something that I have been trained in and can do.  My problem is for example side kick above waist level or things that require flexibility for that particular type of movement.


----------



## MJS (Oct 8, 2009)

MJS said:


> Can I ask you some serious questions? Here goes....
> 
> 1) How old was your son when he started training?
> 
> ...


 
Just bumping these questions up for Gorilla, as I'm curious of the answers.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 8, 2009)

he got black at SEVEN

2nd at NINE

and now at TWELVE is going for 3rd?

-now think about that. even if you go one of those 2 year BS black belts, thats starting at FIVE. NO ONE LEARNS REAL KARATE AT FIVE they are not capable of REAL learning of a REAL martial art at FIVE


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 8, 2009)

MJS said:


> Just bumping these questions up for Gorilla, as I'm curious of the answers.



1. He started at 4 got his first Poom at 7 1/2....3 1/2 years...I think that 7 1/2 is way to young but that is the culture of TKD as it stands.  When I spoke with the Master he was the youngest that he had promoted.  He felt that from competition stand point he need to fight as a black belt.  He is National Level competitor for his age.

2. 3 1/2 to first....1 1/2 to second(he has been a 2nd for over 3 years)...As I stated on the other thread...The master was going to evaluate him for three months and then test for 3rd.  @ 2 weeks into this period the Master spoke with me and we decided that 3rd was premature and that we would re-think his 3rd when he reaches 15.

3. He would be able tho answer to the level of intelligence of a 12 year old (A student).  He taught his sister her forms and she is currently a 1st Dan Black.  He is currently teaching her the form necessary for her 2nd Dan. As far as self def could he defend himself in a toe to toe fight with a full grown 200lb man *absolutely not* but is that true self defense.  He is self aware enough not to put himself in that situation.  He understands striking points and what he would need to do to get away.  He is extremely fast.  He is very fast for a 12 year old and faster than most adults.  He could get away from most adults  

4. "Most" schools 21 for 4th, 25 for 5th, 35 for 6th, 40 for 7th, 50 for 8th and 55 for 9th...I think after 6th you have to go to Korea...This is what i have heard.  I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong but i think that this is close.  

I am always sincere and truthful with my answers.  I always respect other opinions even if they are not respectful in turn.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 8, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> 1. He started at 4 got his first Poom at 7 1/2....3 1/2 years...I think that 7 1/2 is way to young but that is the culture of TKD as it stands.


 
I don't really want to get into the middle of this, but your comments here really jump out at me.  You state that you believe 7 1/2 is way too young, but chalk it up to the culture of TKD.

Sounds to me like you know something is amiss.  Something just doesn't add up.  Something fishy in Denmark (or Korea, as it may be).  Yet you seem to be turning a blind eye to it.


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 8, 2009)

Something is amiss...not much i could do about it at this point...the point is really mute no matter what you call his rank he deserves to be in the top for his age...should we separate adult ranks from kids rank....makes sense to me...is the horse out of the barn "yep"...I started the youth black belt thread because I thought that it would start a lively discussion(mission accomplished)...I have had to talk about my kids skill and accomplishment only because of assumptions and doubts about there skill... I can assure you that if you trained with them you would be impressed with their skill and dedication...they truly love tkd...20 years from know this discussion will seem silly because I believe that they will still be involved in TKD...


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 8, 2009)

and in 20 years, they MIGHT deserve a 3rd degree.


BUT NOT AT TWELVE


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 8, 2009)

Master Tygart why so angry... went on your web site congrats on your promotion to 4th Dan...clear something up for me did you do a skip dan test from 2nd to 4th...are you an ATA black belt...seems that you have trained in many Martial Arts great stuff...I like the values that you have posted...you might want to think about the ones in bold!!!

*Courtesy - to be polite, treat others as you wish to be treated*
Integrity - to exhibit good moral behavior
Perseverance - to not give up regardless of how difficult the task
*Self Control - to be in control of your actions and emotions without being reminded*
Indomitable Spirit- a spirit that can not be conquered


----------



## Sukerkin (Oct 8, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> should we separate adult ranks from kids rank....makes sense to me


 
The very point that I made at the beginning of this tempestuous thread .

It was certainly the case in my own martial arts experience.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 8, 2009)

I dont believe myself to be a Master. I dont let my students use that term, and even though it is allowed for 4ths, in Texas, we generally dont use it till 5th. Thanks tho. Oh, and yes, my instructor, in light of my time in grade, and my having opened my own school, and after seeing my students perform, saw fit to promote me to 4th dan when i was testing for 3rd.

I am not angry, I am flabbergasted that you dont know you are being robbed.

I HATE people that take money, and promote kids in something the kid cant possibly learn, deserve or earn.

And no, i refuse to even walk into an ATA school. I was in the military, so i had the chance to study lots of stuff. It gave me a broader base, and an experience outside of JUST TKD. Thats one main reason why i DESPISE what is happening to you.

My self control is just fine, and by texas standards, i have been downright POLITE to you.

You are being robbed, and you either dont know or dont care.

and it is MY profession thats doing it, i dont like that




Gorilla said:


> Master Tygart why so angry... went on your web site congrats on your promotion to 4th Dan...clear something up for me did you do a skip dan test from 2nd to 4th...are you an ATA black belt...seems that you have trained in many Martial Arts great stuff...I like the values that you have posted...you might want to think about the ones in bold!!!
> 
> *Courtesy - to be polite, treat others as you wish to be treated*
> Integrity - to exhibit good moral behavior
> ...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I was in the military, so i had the chance to study lots of stuff. It gave me a broader base, and an experience outside of JUST TKD.


And my thanks to you for your service!

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 8, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Something is amiss...not much i could do about it at this point...the point is really mute no matter what you call his rank he deserves to be in the top for his age...should we separate adult ranks from kids rank....makes sense to me...is the horse out of the barn "yep"...


After some of your previous posts, this kind of makes them look disingenuous.  There are things in the industry that I cannot do anything about, but I am up front about them being bad for the industry and reflecting poorly on the art.  And I have kids in taekwondo, one of whom started at eight (TSD at that time).  Neither of them received black belts at eight, so perhaps I do not feel any pressure to defend a policy.



Gorilla said:


> II have had to talk about my kids skill and accomplishment only because of assumptions and doubts about there skill... I can assure you that if you trained with them you would be impressed with their skill and dedication...they truly love tkd...20 years from know this discussion will seem silly because I believe that they will still be involved in TKD...


Nobody has questioned that your kids are very skilled for their age.  They questioned whether or not your kids at the ages they are should be wearing black belts with three stripes on them.  There is a difference.

Your school put the belts on them, your school has seen them train.  What is done there is not my call to make.  I do still question the logic of an instructor testing a child for third poom at the age of twelve and then putting a black belt with three stripes on them.

But in no way does that alter your childrens' abilities.  I have no reason to believe that your kids are unskilled; I take you at face value.  I am not one who requires video, as you have nothing to prove to me.  But as I stated in my responses to your thread, this practice is questionable at best.  And you seem to be confirming that in the above post.

Daniel


----------



## MJS (Oct 8, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, they maybe clueless but I did not say they knew it all. Most people in our area tend to do a bit of research before coming to a school or they tend to ask a lot of questions such as "What's the difference in this art compared to XYZ school down the street".


 
Well, thats a good thing, and something that I always suggest people do as well.  



> I still stand by my earlier statement, I would not care so much about if the kid had a black belt or not. I would be more concerned about the fact it was kid. Don't think I would read it as "Oh well another kid was kidnapped and slain and OH MY GOD HE WAS A BLACK BELT???!!!!".


 
So, I'm safe to assume that you don't think kids should be black belts either?  



> Oh, and I have not been asked, nor have I ever been asked in my 29 years, if what I did is the same thing as Bruce Lee.


 
You're lucky.   Of course, another classic that has been asked of me, when I am asked what I train in, tell them Kenpo, and they ask, "Is that like TKD?"  My reply.....Ummmm...No, its not like TKD.


----------



## MJS (Oct 8, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> 1. He started at 4 got his first Poom at 7 1/2....3 1/2 years...I think that 7 1/2 is way to young but that is the culture of TKD as it stands. When I spoke with the Master he was the youngest that he had promoted. He felt that from competition stand point he need to fight as a black belt. He is National Level competitor for his age.


 
Help me understand this....Poom=a rank that is a step below black, such as a Jr. BB?  Well, be it as it may, I still think thats 9yrs too soon, but thats just my opinion.  I do find it interesting that competition is placed so high.  I mean, because he seems to fight well, the Master moved him to black?????



> 2. 3 1/2 to first....1 1/2 to second(he has been a 2nd for over 3 years)...As I stated on the other thread...The master was going to evaluate him for three months and then test for 3rd. @ 2 weeks into this period the Master spoke with me and we decided that 3rd was premature and that we would re-think his 3rd when he reaches 15.


 
What does your son think about that?  I ask because it seems he moved so quick, and then he's now at a standstill...until he's 15?  Wouldn't it make more sense if he had just waited in the first place, for the black belt rank?



> 3. He would be able tho answer to the level of intelligence of a 12 year old (A student). He taught his sister her forms and she is currently a 1st Dan Black. He is currently teaching her the form necessary for her 2nd Dan. As far as self def could he defend himself in a toe to toe fight with a full grown 200lb man *absolutely not* but is that true self defense. He is self aware enough not to put himself in that situation. He understands striking points and what he would need to do to get away. He is extremely fast. He is very fast for a 12 year old and faster than most adults. He could get away from most adults


 
So, if thats the case, how does that look to someone who sees this high rank?  What I mean by that is....he's wearing the rank that is typical of someone who is an adult, but doesnt have a full understanding.  




> 4. "Most" schools 21 for 4th, 25 for 5th, 35 for 6th, 40 for 7th, 50 for 8th and 55 for 9th...I think after 6th you have to go to Korea...This is what i have heard. I am sure that someone will correct me if I am wrong but i think that this is close.


 
So is he ok with the fact that it seems that he was fast-tracked and now comes to a slow down?  If he does wait, as you said, until he'd 15 for his 3rd, then he's going to have to wait another 6yrs for 4th.  Wouldn't it make more sense to just not promote kids so young, and have them wait until they're older?  



> I am always sincere and truthful with my answers. I always respect other opinions even if they are not respectful in turn.


 
Thank you for your reply.


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I dont believe myself to be a Master. I dont let my students use that term, and even though it is allowed for 4ths, in Texas, we generally dont use it till 5th. Thanks tho. Oh, and yes, my instructor, in light of my time in grade, and my having opened my own school, and after seeing my students perform, saw fit to promote me to 4th dan when i was testing for 3rd.
> 
> I am not angry, I am flabbergasted that you dont know you are being robbed.
> 
> ...


 
Well......... It all makes sense now.....jumping, skipping , hopping! Question, what are your feelings on lets say this person kid was skipped dan like you? I mean you can't argue with time in rank. Isn't this really what this come down to. no matter what your age.... I have seen alot of people who should be higher rank just base on thier abilities, but as so many have said, there more to it then that! I have 1st,2nd dans that are great instructors,but I would never concider a skip for them based on that. And as far as owning your own school, I think a buisness lic. cost $14.95 where I live......How many times have you heard people say" I wish I knew then , what I know now". Time in rank gives you the ability to understand the MA you study clearer. I think that my be why it probably isn't a good idea for lets say a 1st Dan to open his or her own school!


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 9, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> 1. He started at 4 got his first Poom at 7 1/2....3 1/2 years...I think that 7 1/2 is way to young but that is the culture of TKD as it stands. When I spoke with the Master he was the youngest that he had promoted. He felt that from competition stand point he need to fight as a black belt. He is National Level competitor for his age.
> 
> 2. 3 1/2 to first....1 1/2 to second(he has been a 2nd for over 3 years)...As I stated on the other thread...The master was going to evaluate him for three months and then test for 3rd. @ 2 weeks into this period the Master spoke with me and we decided that 3rd was premature and that we would re-think his 3rd when he reaches 15.
> 
> ...


 
Good for him! Sounds like at least someone is following some kind of guide lines



Time and Age Limits *Poom/Dan**Minimum Time Required for Promotion**Age Limits for Promotion*Start from DanStart from Poom1st PoomN AN ALess than 15 Years Old1st to 2nd Pom1 yearN A 15 ?2nd to 3rd Poom 2 year N A 15 ? 3rd to 4th Poom 3 year N A 18 ? 1st DanN A 15years and above N A 1st to 2nd Dan1 year 16years and above 15years and above 2nd to 3rd Dan2 year18years and above 15years and above 3rd to 4th Dan 3 year21years and above 18years and above 4th to 5th Dan4 year 25years and above 22years and above 5th to 6th Dan 5 year 30years and above 30years and above 6th to 7th Dan 6 year36years and above 36years and above 7th to 8th Dan 8 year 44years and above 44years and above 8th to 9th Dan 9 year53years and above 53years and above 9th to 10th DanN A 60years and above 60years and above


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> I dont believe myself to be a Master. I dont let my students use that term, and even though it is allowed for 4ths, in Texas, we generally dont use it till 5th. Thanks tho. Oh, and yes, my instructor, in light of my time in grade, and my having opened my own school, and after seeing my students perform, saw fit to promote me to 4th dan when i was testing for 3rd.


 
And lastly..... Isn't this statement above how you got your skip, the same as the name of this thread! _*"Rant: Placing value in yourself based on others' accomplishments":supcool:*_


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

MJS said:


> Help me understand this....Poom=a rank that is a step below black, such as a Jr. BB? Well, be it as it may, I still think thats 9yrs too soon, but thats just my opinion. I do find it interesting that competition is placed so high. I mean, because he seems to fight well, the Master moved him to black?????


Just to clarify something about the poom:

While the Kukkiwon may be the Korean national administrative body for the art of taekwondo, they are eyeball deep in the sport of taekwondo.

The whole idea of the poom is to provide a rank that designates that the child is more advanced than a first keup and it allows that child to compete against other such children. 

Carol Kaur made the observation that the belt system was originally for sport anyway and that it should be used for that. To a certain extent, I agree. The only disconnect in that is that taekwondo is essentially morphed Shotokan, and belts were not used in that fashion at the time taekwondo was being formed.

To a great extent, however, the belts are being used primarilly to bracket competitors. Certainly, that is the only use that belts have in the WTF. They determine who you fight and what poomsae you are allowed to use in competition.

So for this reason, the _*rank*_ of first, second, and even third poom does not bother me with a twelve year old.

What bothers me is that firstly, a poom automatically converts to a dan with the submission of the appropriate paperwork on the part of the student's GM. If I am not mistaken, all pooms convert, so for example, Gorilla's twelve year old son could test for third poom, never test again and be ranked third dan at fifteen. And yes, I consider fifteen to be too young for a third dan.

The other issue is that there is a definite blurring between the poom and the dan. This bluring becomes greater when black belts are put onto poom grade students. Partly due to the automatic conversion with no requirement for the student to take an adult test, and partly because the only reasons for the poom in the first place are to keep kids sticking around past blackbelt and to facilitate competition brackets.

In all fairness to Gorilla's kids, they are doing the very thing that the poom was designed for. It is neither his fault, nor that of his kids that the system is set up as it is with regards to conversion and that their instructor puts a black belt with multiple stripes on poom grade students. His kids are showing up and working hard.

The fix is fairly easy in my opinion. A simple three step process:

1. Have poom 1-4, with 4 being for age twelve to fourteen. 
2. Require poom grade students to wear a poom belt.
3. Any fifteen year old may test for first dan, but the 4th poom student should receive a test that is directed towards the non-competition related items. By this point, he or she has already proven that they know their forms and can spar within the system, have plenty of endurance, and likely can break pretty darn well. So make their test a more technical/knowledge based test and focus on SD rather than competition sparring in the physical section. The only competition related material shoudl be to have the student spar an adult BB.  *Edit: *From attaining first dan at fifteen, the normal time period between dans would be enforced.  Thus the student would be eligible to tesf for second dan at sixteen, third at eighteen, and fourth at twenty one, assuming that the student continues to train and is tested in that timeframe.

This way, they still have a competition bracket that keeps competition fair but the integrity of the dan rank and black belt is maintained.

Daniel


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just to clarify something about the poom:
> 
> While the Kukkiwon may be the Korean national administrative body for the art of taekwondo, they are eyeball deep in the sport of taekwondo.
> 
> ...


 

Your right on the money. I don't like the poom and dan convertion ether. It really do not make sense. I wish I had done the poom belt and poom uniform! Well maybe my next school,right.


----------



## Cirdan (Oct 9, 2009)

Using belts to determine who people can fight and what patterns they can use is pure genius.. if you want to make money.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Using belts to determine who people can fight and what patterns they can use is pure genius.. if you want to make money.


The World Taekwondo Federation regulates the *sport* of taekwondo.  WTF taekwondo is an olympic event.

Absolutely, money is a major factor.  I am not cynical enought to say that it is the only factor, but is a major one.  National prestige is another.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> We do extensive ukemi in my school from a variety of positions and if you can't do a fireman's roll (essentially a front roll executed from a running and leaping start in the air), you just won't get past green belt with me.


Sounds like our hapkido class.  Lots of ukemi.  If you cannot do the ukemi, then you should not go past green belt for your own safety.



dancingalone said:


> The standards I have on strength and limberness aren't arbitrary. It's because you need these things in certain measures to be able to execute specific movements or techniques I require from my students. Let me give you another example, one requiring strength: I ask all my students to be able to perform tomoe-nage on a full-sized man at least 200 lbs. Below is a video so you know the throw I am talking about.
> 
> [yt]XZPpeVzTt-E[/yt]
> 
> Tomoe-nage can definitely be completed by someone much weaker and smaller than the attacker, but there's a minimum baseline. It's doubtful a nine-year-old for example could successfully execute the throw on a 200 lb man from a standing position.


We do this one in our hapkido class.  Fun throw!  We do not learn it until first Keup.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 9, 2009)

> Sounds like our hapkido class. Lots of ukemi. If you cannot do the ukemi, then you should not go past green belt for your own safety.



Thumbs up.  I'll be honest and admit I crib much of this material from my wife who is an aikido instructor.  She's tough on me.  It took about 12 years for me to make shodan under her.

We're already fighting over our son over whose student he will be.


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> After some of your previous posts, this kind of makes them look disingenuous.  There are things in the industry that I cannot do anything about, but I am up front about them being bad for the industry and reflecting poorly on the art.  And I have kids in taekwondo, one of whom started at eight (TSD at that time).  Neither of them received black belts at eight, so perhaps I do not feel any pressure to defend a policy.
> 
> 
> Nobody has questioned that your kids are very skilled for their age.  They questioned whether or not your kids at the ages they are should be wearing black belts with three stripes on them.  There is a difference.
> ...



Please go back and read my posts I have never said that kids under 10 deserve a black belt I posed the question and everyone assumed that I supported it because my kids are of that rank.  I would be in favor of making them all red belts if that was the highest rank that could be achieved.


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 9, 2009)

is there a point or question anywhere in this.....




NPTKD said:


> Well......... It all makes sense now.....jumping, skipping , hopping! Question, what are your feelings on lets say this person kid was skipped dan like you? I mean you can't argue with time in rank. Isn't this really what this come down to. no matter what your age.... I have seen alot of people who should be higher rank just base on thier abilities, but as so many have said, there more to it then that! I have 1st,2nd dans that are great instructors,but I would never concider a skip for them based on that. And as far as owning your own school, I think a buisness lic. cost $14.95 where I live......How many times have you heard people say" I wish I knew then , what I know now". Time in rank gives you the ability to understand the MA you study clearer. I think that my be why it probably isn't a good idea for lets say a 1st Dan to open his or her own school!


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Just to clarify something about the poom:
> 
> While the Kukkiwon may be the Korean national administrative body for the art of taekwondo, they are eyeball deep in the sport of taekwondo.
> 
> ...



This post I agree with 100%.  It is what I have been looking for an unbiased well thought out rational way of looking at competition and youth black belts.
Thank you very much I believe that this is the best post that I have seen on this subject.  Now if we could just get it implemented.

Thank you Daniel,  your posts are way better than some which have called be a fool, and suggested that our master should be slapped.  I really appreciate your post.  I cannot say enough your post was great!!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Please go back and read my posts I have never said that kids under 10 deserve a black belt I posed the question and everyone assumed that I supported it because my kids are of that rank. I would be in favor of making them all red belts if that was the highest rank that could be achieved.


Thank you for clarifying. 

Just for some clarification on my end, it was more that you seemed to be defending the policy in previous posts.

You posted a very detailed description of your son's test and training regimen, so while you did not come out and make the blanket statement that ten and younger kids deserve a black belt, you did make the case that your son does.

And by *that* school's standards, I am sure that your son *is *deserving. I said on the other thread that a black belt is largely meaningful only within the school of issuance, regardless of the age of the holder. Given your school's focus on competition (at least from what you have described), they are using the belt system for kids primarilly in that context.

Another school will have a different focus and thus different criteria.

I guess what I see, however, is that *every* parent who's child has a black belt feels that it is perfectly reasonable for them to have it. Every parent posts detailed descriptions of how challenging the test is, and how they know that their kid worked very hard.

To be fair, I think that on a forum such as this one, you get a skewed crossection. Most parents do not post on an MA forum, and I do think that those who do post and contribute regularly have kids who are really, *really* into whatever martial art it is that they are involved with, and the parent in question is really, *really* supportive of their child (such as yourself, ATC, Mangoman, and TKDFather). 

The average parent who uses the school as daycare and who's kid goes to class once or twice a week, does not practice much or at all between class, does not compete seriously, and looks like the typical kid trying to do a form, is *not *the parent that typically contributes. I do think that those parents may post here once or twice to find a dojo, and once they find one, they generally do not stick around.

The problem that you run into is that as soon as the words school-age and blackbelt are put together, most of the members immediately think, "belt factory/McDojo," while that may not necesarilly be the case.

Daniel


----------



## ATC (Oct 9, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Using belts to determine who people can fight and what patterns they can use is pure genius.. if you want to make money.


Don't forget saftey. I am sure you would not want a white belt going up againt a black belt. You have to have some type of structure.


----------



## elder999 (Oct 9, 2009)

ATC said:


> Don't forget saftey. I am sure you would not want a white belt going up againt a black belt. You have to have some type of structure.


 

A white belt "going up against a black belt" is usually *safer* than a white belt "going up against a _white belt_."


----------



## mango.man (Oct 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> A white belt "going up against a black belt" is usually *safer* than a white belt "going up against a _white belt_."


 
Only if the black belt knows that the other is a white belt.  If the black belt assumes the other has the same experience as him/her than all bets are off.


----------



## elder999 (Oct 9, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Only if the black belt knows that the other is a white belt. If the black belt assumes the other has the same experience as him/her than all bets are off.


 

Which has, of course, been the real reason for belt ranking from the beginning, and points to some of the reasons for the original post: if two black belts in system X face off, and one of them is....I dunno...._me_: 6'2", 230 lbs., and once called by one sensei, _"Positively homicidal._" (this was, of course, _before_ the subway incident...) against a 7, no make that a _12 year old_ black belt: 5'5", 100 lbs., are "all bets off?"


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

elder999 said:


> A white belt "going up against a black belt" is usually *safer* than a white belt "going up against a _white belt_."


In general, I agree, though it also depends upon the quality of the black belt in question.

With regards to your comment, at the last competition I competed in, there was a yellow belt gent in his mid forties who was legally blind.  He could see, but not at all well.  He competed with myself and others in the "super executive" class.  The tournament officials asked if he was sure he wanted to compete with us because everyone else in the super executive class were black belts.  His Kwan-jang said, "only black belt opponents.  I don't want my student to get hurt.  Colored belts do not have enough control."

Daniel


----------



## ATC (Oct 9, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't want my student to get hurt. Colored belts do not have enough control."
> 
> Daniel


Such a true statement. I hate sparing color belts. Not because of the control (techniques is too bad for lack of control to hurt me) but because of the bad techniques that have me colliding knee on knee and their knees into my hips, because of a lack of distance understanding. Not to mention all the qroin shots due to lack of flexibility and timing.

Now for SD color belts are the best because they come at as someone on the street would.


----------



## ATC (Oct 9, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Only if the black belt knows that the other is a white belt. If the black belt assumes the other has the same experience as him/her than all bets are off.


Or if said Black Belts cares. Some people just don't care who is in front of them.


----------



## Stac3y (Oct 9, 2009)

I'm a brown belt, so my role in sparring with color belts is to be a human punching bag (or so I'm told). The worst ones are the orange or green belt men--they're strong, and have started to learn some okay techniques, but they don't have a lot of control, and they tend to be very....er... enthusiastic. Groin is a fair shot for us, btw. What I hate is getting kicked in the legs. Sparring the color belts is really good for my blocking, though. :wink2:


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 9, 2009)

"You posted a very detailed description of your son's test and training regimen, so while you did not come out and make the blanket statement that ten and younger kids deserve a black belt, you did make the case that your son does." Daniel Sulivan

One last clarification.  The reason that i posted my sons training and standards is because people assumed that i was the parent that you described.  I am in agreement that Youth Black Belts are questionable.  I like the Poom rank that you suggested.  The only person that I personally know is mango man.  His daughter is extremely skilled and from what I have observed just a great young lady.  My kids are of the same caliber and in the end the rank that they carry does not matter.  The only reason rank becomes a concern is competition and their future in TKD.


----------



## mango.man (Oct 9, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> One last clarification. The reason that i posted my sons training and standards is because people assumed that i was the parent that you described. I am in agreement that Youth Black Belts are questionable. I like the Poom rank that you suggested. The only person that I personally know is mango man. His daughter is extremely skilled and from what I have observed just a great young lady. My kids are of the same caliber and in the end the rank that they carry does not matter. The only reason rank becomes a concern is competition and their future in TKD.


 
Your kids are pretty OK too Mr. B. and both very much deserving of the rank that they hold and the competitive record that they have worked so hard at achieving. I believe that they will both go far in the sport and in TKD as a way of life.

Now if you don't mind I need to go get ready to drive 90 minutes and watch my daughter (Started at age 5 / 1st Poom at age 9 / 2nd Poom at age 13 / Tested for, and presumably passed her 3rd Dan test earlier this year at age 16, although no new rank has been issued yet) do the standard 2 hour "Friday Night Fights" at which "Blood, Sweat and Tears" are all a pretty common site at our school and then drive 90 minutes back home.  It's 5:30 now and I will be home somewhere around 10:30-11, at which time we will all go to sleep so that we can wake up early tomorrow and do it all again for morning class.

G-Night all!!!


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks Charles...Sam is only getting better...I have been watching her since 2004...She never seems to quit and that you cannot teach...By the way the Team X is one of the best teams in the country.  You are very lucky to have Tim.  See you at the next Tourney!!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> One last clarification. The reason that i posted my sons training and standards is because people assumed that i was the parent that you described.


Which was pretty much my point. Regardless of how hard your kids work or how good their training may be, once on an internet forum there are a good number of people who will dismiss you as soon as you say that your child who is under fifteen has a black belt.  They have their reasons, which have been enumerated on both threads already, so no need to rehash.

Generally, I will not assume much of anything about other posters their schools beyond what they say. It is way too easy to make assumptions about another poster, their instructor or school.

In any case, I thank you for the earlier compliment. Likewise, I do enjoy your posts. I do not always agree with you, but I think that you present your points well.

Not to mention, you have taken a lot of criticism on this and the other thread and have remained cordial. I respect that.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 9, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> This post I agree with 100%. It is what I have been looking for an unbiased well thought out rational way of looking at competition and youth black belts.
> Thank you very much I believe that this is the best post that I have seen on this subject. Now if we could just get it implemented.


One school at a time is about the only way.  I do not see the Kukkiwon changing it anytime soon.

Certainly, I can live with the system as it is.  It is a belt system.  Use at as a tool or discard it, but in the end it is not worth getting upset over.  It does indeed generate some lively conversation though.

As for competition, I think that it has value both as a sport and for the art.  One thing that it does do is demonstrate that taekwondoists can use those kicks against resisting opponents.  Just wish the hand techs were represented as well, but I suppose that that is already done in the sportive aspects of Karate and the ITF.



Gorilla said:


> Thank you Daniel, your posts are way better than some which have called be a fool, and suggested that our master should be slapped. I really appreciate your post. I cannot say enough your post was great!!!


Aw, shucks.

Daniel


----------



## Twin Fist (Oct 10, 2009)

i'll say it again too,

IMO your instructor is ROBBING you and you need to wake up and realize it.


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 11, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> i'll say it again too,
> 
> IMO your instructor is ROBBING you and you need to wake up and realize it.


 
He has trained my kids to be very good at the sport that they have chosen.  He is is an honest man with integrity.  I have said many times. He charges minimum fees.  I am wide a wake.  I don't think that your insults reflect very well on you.  Nor do they represent the values that you expound.  You refuse to listen because it does not fit your agenda.


----------



## Gorilla (Oct 11, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Your kids are pretty OK too Mr. B. and both very much deserving of the rank that they hold and the competitive record that they have worked so hard at achieving. I believe that they will both go far in the sport and in TKD as a way of life.
> 
> Now if you don't mind I need to go get ready to drive 90 minutes and watch my daughter (Started at age 5 / 1st Poom at age 9 / 2nd Poom at age 13 / Tested for, and presumably passed her 3rd Dan test earlier this year at age 16, although no new rank has been issued yet) do the standard 2 hour "Friday Night Fights" at which "Blood, Sweat and Tears" are all a pretty common site at our school and then drive 90 minutes back home.  It's 5:30 now and I will be home somewhere around 10:30-11, at which time we will all go to sleep so that we can wake up early tomorrow and do it all again for morning class.
> 
> G-Night all!!!



Oh No the cat is out of the bag.  You will be branded a fool and it will be suggested that your Coach be slapped.  People assume much and talk without knowing.  The irony of it all is that both of our coaches would think that we are foolish for wasting our time posting on these forums.  I am strangely addicted can't seem to stop.  I guess its better than drinking or gambling.


----------



## ATC (Oct 11, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> He has trained my kids to be very good at the sport that they have chosen. He is is an honest man with integrity. I have said many times. He charges minimum fees. I am wide a wake. I don't think that your insults reflect very well on you. Nor do they represent the values that you expound. You refuse to listen because it does not fit your agenda.


You know what you know so just say it once and let those that think others wise do so. Nothing you can do. Hope to see you guys at the US Open. Just made my hotel reservations as it is cheap right now. Got a room at the MGM for only 50 bucks a night. See you there.


----------



## Ceicei (Oct 11, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Now if you don't mind I need to go get ready to drive 90 minutes and watch my daughter (Started at age 5 / 1st Poom at age 9 / 2nd Poom at age 13 / Tested for, and presumably passed her 3rd Dan test earlier this year at age 16, although no new rank has been issued yet)



I'm a bit confused.  Why would it go 1st Poom, 2nd Poom, then 3rd Dan?  Shouldn't it be 1st Poom, 2nd Poom, then 1st Dan when becoming 16? If not, then is this to suggest that the 1st and 2nd Pooms are the equivalent of 1st and 2nd Dan (the assumption of the difference being in age, if study materials remain the same)?  I would have thought that the Pooms study differently, with the Dans being more extensive with their black belt materials.

- Ceicei


----------



## NPTKD (Oct 11, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Oh No the cat is out of the bag. You will be branded a fool and it will be suggested that your Coach be slapped. People assume much and talk without knowing. The irony of it all is that both of our coaches would think that we are foolish for wasting our time posting on these forums. I am strangely addicted can't seem to stop. I guess its better than drinking or gambling.


 

It's a funny thing isn't! A total waste time. But I like you, have a hard time staying away. Every once and a while you can really find some good infromation here. I spend so much time in the dojang....... Anyway with this guy, you really are wasting your time and your breath.


----------



## mango.man (Oct 11, 2009)

Ceicei said:


> I'm a bit confused. Why would it go 1st Poom, 2nd Poom, then 3rd Dan? Shouldn't it be 1st Poom, 2nd Poom, then 1st Dan when becoming 16? If not, then is this to suggest that the 1st and 2nd Pooms are the equivalent of 1st and 2nd Dan (the assumption of the difference being in age, if study materials remain the same)? I would have thought that the Pooms study differently, with the Dans being more extensive with their black belt materials.
> 
> - Ceicei


 
As has been covered ad-infinitum, in this thread and others, poom ranks automagically become dan ranks at age 15 in the eyes of the Kukkiwon.  In both the "traditional" schools and the sport only school that we have been at over years there has been no differentiation between poom and dan ranks as both were taught together at the same time and the same expectations were placed on both.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 12, 2009)

mango.man said:


> As has been covered ad-infinitum, in this thread and others, poom ranks automagically become dan ranks at age 15 in the eyes of the Kukkiwon. In both the "traditional" schools and the sport only school that we have been at over years there has been no differentiation between poom and dan ranks as both were taught together at the same time and the same expectations were placed on both.


Yup.  I believe that there is paperwork that must be filed and registered by the student's instructor, but no retesting or starting over, unless the Kukkiwon has automated it (would not surprise me).

The assumption is that if a student is first poom, then second poom when they are under fifteen and they continue to stick with it, then by the time they are fifteen, their bodies are developed and hopefully, they have the maturity of a first or second dan (I say hopefully because as we all know, there are grown adults who lack the maturity of some ten year old white belts).  They then test for third *dan* at this point.

For those doing the math, yes, that means that a student who tests for third dan at fifteen will be eligible to test at eighteen.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 12, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Your kids are pretty OK too Mr. B. and both very much deserving of the rank that they hold and the competitive record that they have worked so hard at achieving. I believe that they will both go far in the sport and in TKD as a way of life.
> 
> Now if you don't mind I need to go get ready to drive 90 minutes and watch my daughter (Started at age 5 / 1st Poom at age 9 / 2nd Poom at age 13 / Tested for, and presumably passed her 3rd Dan test earlier this year at age 16, although no new rank has been issued yet) do the standard 2 hour "Friday Night Fights" at which "Blood, Sweat and Tears" are all a pretty common site at our school and then drive 90 minutes back home. It's 5:30 now and I will be home somewhere around 10:30-11, at which time we will all go to sleep so that we can wake up early tomorrow and do it all again for morning class.
> 
> G-Night all!!!


Congrats to your daughter, sir!

Daniel


----------

