# What would you do in this situation?



## sl2squeeze (Nov 3, 2007)

I was watching a show on E! today that talked about this guy in Arizona who kidnapped two girls at gunpoint and raped them. He then proceeded to tie them both up and put them in the back seat of his Bronco truck. 

He pulled his car over into a desolate area and fell asleep in the driver's seat while these girls are alive and awake in the back seat with a bowie knife that he forgot was in the car. One of the girls managed to get free and stabbed the guy in the neck while he was sleeping.

If you were in this situation and had only one chance to kill the maniac who kidnapped you, where would you stab him? Keep in mind that the kidnapper, although sleeping, had two guns on his person. 

I ask this because the stab to the neck did not kill the kidnapper....he managed to drive the car away and finally got into a shootout with police during which time he was shot and killed.


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## Empty Hands (Nov 3, 2007)

The neck's the best one-shot bet, even if it didn't work in this case.  Drive it deep, at a 45 degree angle, right next to the trachea.  That will hit the carotid.

Of course, I would have taken a bullet before going anywhere with that slime.  Those girls are lucky to be alive.  Too bad the stab wasn't fatal.


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## jks9199 (Nov 3, 2007)

There's not a simple answer.  It depends on what options are available, the blade length, the position of the kidnapper and available targets...  The neck's a good target, lots of vulnerable things like the carotid close to the skin.  It only takes about a 7 inch blade to reach the heart from the shoulder/neck joint (that's the reason for the length of the K-bar and other similar knives).  But, if the only target you've got is on the lower body, there are a number of vital targets along the groin & inner thigh...

What I really commend in this case is that the girls never gave up.  They kept trying, which eventually led to their freedom.  That never-quit attitude is the real key to surviving an attack.


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## theletch1 (Nov 3, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's not a simple answer. It depends on what options are available, the blade length, the position of the kidnapper and available targets... The neck's a good target, lots of vulnerable things like the carotid close to the skin. It only takes about a 7 inch blade to reach the heart from the shoulder/neck joint (that's the reason for the length of the K-bar and other similar knives). But, if the only target you've got is on the lower body, there are a number of vital targets along the groin & inner thigh...
> 
> What I really commend in this case is that the girls never gave up. They kept trying, which eventually led to their freedom. That never-quit attitude is the real key to surviving an attack.


Excellent point.  Never giving up is the only mind-set you can afford to have and stay alive.  I'm curious though, the OP said that he raped both girls and then tied them up.  Why wouldn't the girl not being raped attempt to defend?  Yes, I understand the psychology of the situation...terror and all but I'm looking from a purely SD mindset here.  I'm curious what the other ladies on the board would have done in that situation.  I'm certain that it wouldn't have been to freeze up.  This is a perfect example of the benifits of training.  Keeps you, hopefully, from the initial freezing up.  The fact that once things had had time to settle into their heads for a little while they had the presence of mind to free themselves and then fight back says a lot for them.


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## Empty Hands (Nov 3, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Why wouldn't the girl not being raped attempt to defend?



The OP said they were kidnapped at gunpoint.  The rapist probably had the gun trained on the other girl, or he could quickly do so.


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## jks9199 (Nov 3, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Excellent point.  Never giving up is the only mind-set you can afford to have and stay alive.  I'm curious though, the OP said that he raped both girls and then tied them up.  Why wouldn't the girl not being raped attempt to defend?  Yes, I understand the psychology of the situation...terror and all but I'm looking from a purely SD mindset here.  I'm curious what the other ladies on the board would have done in that situation.  I'm certain that it wouldn't have been to freeze up.  This is a perfect example of the benifits of training.  Keeps you, hopefully, from the initial freezing up.  The fact that once things had had time to settle into their heads for a little while they had the presence of mind to free themselves and then fight back says a lot for them.


I refuse to second guess the actions of a rape survivor.  The girls may not have had the opportunity to defend themselves during the rape for numerous reasons.  While enduring the rape is seldom an ideal tactic, there have been cases where biding their time and choosing the right moment to attack was the key to successful escape.  Maybe earlier action would have prevented the rape -- or maybe it would have simply led to the victim's death.  What I teach is to do WHATEVER it takes to survive -- even if that means enduring something you'd never wish on your worst enemy.


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## theletch1 (Nov 3, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I refuse to second guess the actions of a rape survivor. The girls may not have had the opportunity to defend themselves during the rape for numerous reasons. While enduring the rape is seldom an ideal tactic, there have been cases where biding their time and choosing the right moment to attack was the key to successful escape. Maybe earlier action would have prevented the rape -- or maybe it would have simply led to the victim's death. What I teach is to do WHATEVER it takes to survive -- even if that means enduring something you'd never wish on your worst enemy.


I apoligize for coming across as if I were second guessing the two women in the report.  That was not my intention.  As I said in my post I was attempting to look at it from a purely SD mindset.  We simply don't have enough detail about the original attack to understand every option the girls had.


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## morph4me (Nov 3, 2007)

I don't know that I would stab him anywhere, I'd more than likely slit his throat from ear to ear, and then bury the knife to the hilt downward behind his collar bone.That would only be because he had the guns and killing him as slowly and painfully as he deserved wouldn't be an option.


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## CoryKS (Nov 3, 2007)

sl2squeeze said:


> If you were in this situation and had only one chance to kill the maniac who kidnapped you, where would you stab him? Keep in mind that the kidnapper, although sleeping, had two guns on his person.


 
I'd probably go for the eyes and work my way down.


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## tellner (Nov 3, 2007)

JKS is, of course, correct. Remember what he said. It's important.

But given that, there are targets that give you a better chance. We've known about them for tens or hundreds of thousands of years.


The femoral artery
The kidney
The base of the skull and cervical spine
The great vessels of the neck
The brain via the eye
The radial and brachial arteries
The liver
"The way to a man's heart is through his stomach"
Any of these can take render someone unconscious in less than a minute, dead pretty quickly thereafter and _possibly _unable to fight within seconds. It all depends on what you've got and what targets present themselves. There are techniques specific to each of these. I will not go into them here.

There are other targets like


The tendons
The facial carotid
Nerve bundles
The scalp above the eyes
which reduce his ability to fight. If you can't get the primary targets these can slow him down enough to let you get them.

Cutting his throat while he's asleep seems like an excellent tactic under the circumstances. As the Noble Quran says "in battle strike them in the neck, and once they are defeated bind any captives securely - later you can release them by grace or by ransom - until the toils of war have ended."


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## Lisa (Nov 3, 2007)

What would I have done?

Anything I possibly could to survive.  I am thinking if I was in the back seat I would want to hurt him (hopefully fatally) as quickly as I could without giving him a chance to react and grab me in any way.  A good hard stab to the neck from the back seat would work, one would think anyway.  Other then that slicing him across the throat.  I wouldn't attempt anything lower on the torso as I would be afraid he could grab me.

Stab and run.  As fast and as hard as I could on both.


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## Kacey (Nov 3, 2007)

If I were alone - I'd stab anything I could reach, preferably something that would bleed a lot.  If I were with another person, as the women here, I would like to think that I would free the other person first, so she could help me both with the knife and the escape.  Either way I would do my best to kill (or at least disable) the bastard and then get away as quickly as possible, screaming for help as soon as I could.


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## terryl965 (Nov 3, 2007)

I would have to agree with all of you I would make sure I stab or cut the thoart and then ran as fast as I could until I found somebody.


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## Drac (Nov 3, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> There's not a simple answer. It depends on what options are available, the blade length, the position of the kidnapper and available targets... The neck's a good target, lots of vulnerable things like the carotid close to the skin. It only takes about a 7 inch blade to reach the heart from the shoulder/neck joint (that's the reason for the length of the K-bar and other similar knives). But, if the only target you've got is on the lower body, there are a number of vital targets along the groin & inner thigh...
> 
> What I really commend in this case is that the girls never gave up. They kept trying, which eventually led to their freedom. That never-quit attitude is the real key to surviving an attack.


 
Couldn't have said it any better....


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## 14 Kempo (Nov 3, 2007)

I agree, stab the neck area or slice the throat. A stab slightly upward entering anywhere from behind and slightly below the ear to the base of the skull, maybe with a little scramble added in once the hilt of the knife was on the skull, would do the trick. 

What most people aren't noting, and I don't know whether or not they realize it, a Bronco is a two door vehicle, unless the guy is totally incapacitated, they would not be able to get out the door. But if they could get out, run like hell.


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 3, 2007)

Slit the throut open. Unless I can get his gun(s), in which case I'd take them, and run in the direction of safety.


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## tellner (Nov 3, 2007)

CN, if I could get one of his guns I'd quickly put two or three rounds into the back of his skull. You won't get another chance like that. The gun won't make you run any faster. And you sure as hell don't want to let him wake up. 

It's interesting, there's a number of people here with very specific tactical concerns about how to disable the criminal as efficiently as possible. They tend to be the ones for whom violence is a part of professional life or those who generally have a serious self defense attitude. Another group is more general in its thoughts with things like cutting something unspecified or doing "whatever it takes". They tend to be more explicitly interested in martial arts as a hobby or social activity. I suppose they confront these issues a bit less often and have less of a planned and practiced response to deadly force situations. 

It's very interesting and not unexpected.

I'm gratified that nobody suggested holding him prisoner, tying him up, attempting something non-violent or (with one exception) running off into the unknown in the night with no resources or bearings.


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## theletch1 (Nov 3, 2007)

I think that, as a general rule, regardless of the reason you train in the martial arts that one of the by products is the understanding that there are, indeed, times when violence simply cannot be avoided.  Trying something non-violent is great in theory but in the case of the two young ladies in the OP the attacker had already proven beyong a shadow of a doubt that there would not be a non-violent ending to the scenario.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 3, 2007)

Kudos to the girls for not giving up!

My specific actions in this scenario would depend on a number of variables:
-what is the posture of the bad guy (leaning back, slumped over the wheel, lying on the seat, etc.)?
-are his guns in a place where I can grab one or both (for that matter, do I know how to use one if I get it?)?
-what is the length and weight of the knife?
-is my fellow captive able and willing to help me attack the guy?

As a general rule, I'd be more likely to thrust the blade into the neck (carotid), behind the collar-bone (sub-clavian), or up behind the ear or base of the skull (brain/brainstem) than to try "slashing his throat."  
One idea would be for one person to grab his hair or head and drive the knife into his neck while the other one went for one of his weapons or tried to get a door open.

There are too many variables to be able to say definitively what I would do in a specific situation but the point is that you need to keep fighting until there is no longer a threat.  In a situation like this, would I kill a sleeping man so that I could escape...damn right I would.


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 3, 2007)

tellner said:


> CN, if I could get one of his guns I'd quickly put two or three rounds into the back of his skull. You won't get another chance like that. The gun won't make you run any faster. And you sure as hell don't want to let him wake up.


 
Yah, but I'd rather like to avoid killing someone. Haveing that gun means that if he wakes up, I don't have to worry (as much) about dieing myself. see the logic?


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## KenpoTex (Nov 3, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Yah, but I'd rather like to avoid killing someone. Haveing that gun means that if he wakes up, I don't have to worry (as much) about dieing myself. see the logic?


 
What logic? A weapon is not a talisman against violent behavior, if he wakes up and comes after you you're either going to have to use it or die.
In the situation mentioned in the original post, I guarantee that if the girls hadn't fought back and the cops didn't end up shooting the guy, he would have killed the girls.


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## morph4me (Nov 3, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Yah, but I'd rather like to avoid killing someone. Haveing that gun means that if he wakes up, I don't have to worry (as much) about dieing myself. see the logic?


 
I'm pretty sure that most everyone here would rather avoid killing someone, but as theletch said "Trying something non-violent is great in theory but in the case of the two young ladies in the OP the attacker had already proven beyong a shadow of a doubt that there would not be a non-violent ending to the scenario." 

This time someone was going to die.


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## Jai (Nov 4, 2007)

I would've done the same thing the girl did. Stab the bastard.


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## tellner (Nov 4, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Yah, but I'd rather like to avoid killing someone. Haveing that gun means that if he wakes up, I don't have to worry (as much) about dieing myself. see the logic?



No. I don't see the logic. The gun will not keep you safe. It is not a magical amulet. Its only use here is killing the S.O.B. before he can kill you. And if you don't kill him *he will kill you*.  Your only rational option is to do it  as quickly and efficiently as possible. If he's asleep that's perfect. If you grab the gun and run you will still have to shoot him. But it will be when you are tired and even more afraid without the clear shot that guarantees your survival. 

A couple people have advocated stabbing him and then running. 

I'm afraid these people are not thinking.

Why?

If you are going to use deadly force you darned well better make sure that it is effective. That means he can not follow you. If you don't do this you will have a wounded, angry person after you who is bigger, stronger and better armed. Blindly striking out and running away in a panic simply means you will die tired with the holes in the back. Make sure and walk away or dither, panic, run and die.

This is about as stark a situation as you'll ever see. Kill or get killed. If your martial arts do not help you make what the defensive pistol people call The Decision when your life is at stake your training has been worthless. It's failed the only important test, and it has failed you.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 4, 2007)

tellner said:


> If you are going to use deadly force you darned well better make sure that it is effective. That means he can not follow you. If you don't do this you will have a wounded, angry person after you who is bigger, stronger and better armed. *Blindly striking out and running away in a panic simply means you will die tired with the holes in the back.* Make sure and walk away or dither, panic, run and die.
> 
> This is about as stark a situation as you'll ever see. Kill or get killed. *If your martial arts do not help you make what the defensive pistol people call The Decision when your life is at stake your training has been worthless.* It's failed the only important test, and it has failed you.


Those statements are so good they just needed to be repeated


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## meth18au (Nov 4, 2007)

Throat/Neck

Real fast, hard and deep...make sure he's dead.  That sounds bad, but Tellner is right.  Deadly force is required.  And failing to do the job properly could result in the loss of your life, or the other person with you.  I'd hate to be put into a situation like that though...horrible...


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## jks9199 (Nov 4, 2007)

tellner said:


> No. I don't see the logic. The gun will not keep you safe. It is not a magical amulet. Its only use here is killing the S.O.B. before he can kill you. And if you don't kill him *he will kill you*.  Your only rational option is to do it  as quickly and efficiently as possible. If he's asleep that's perfect. If you grab the gun and run you will still have to shoot him. But it will be when you are tired and even more afraid without the clear shot that guarantees your survival.
> 
> A couple people have advocated stabbing him and then running.
> 
> ...


In this sort of situation, there is absolutely no doubt that lethal force was easily justifiable.  Best case scenario, had the girls done nothing, they faced repeated raping until their assailant tired of them and let them go.  Most realistic scenario is that they faced repeated rapings followed by killing them.

In a situation like this, if you can't access a lethal target, or are so philosophically opposed to killing that you absolutely refuse to do so, you MUST do as much damage as you can, trying to incapacitate the attacker.  If all you can do is access a knee, tear that knee up so that he can't chase you while you run.  If it's an arm, try to do so much damage that he HAS to stop and address it before he does anything more.  But the realistic odds of doing so are so low that you are infinitely better off targeting lethal points, because there's a much greater chance of at least doing serious injury that way.  If your life is on the line -- your attacker's should be to.  It's only fair!


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## Kacey (Nov 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> In a situation like this, *if you can't access a lethal target, or are so philosophically opposed to killing that you absolutely refuse to do so,* you MUST do as much damage as you can, trying to incapacitate the attacker.  If all you can do is access a knee, tear that knee up so that he can't chase you while you run.  If it's an arm, try to do so much damage that he HAS to stop and address it before he does anything more.  But the realistic odds of doing so are so low that you are infinitely better off targeting lethal points, because there's a much greater chance of at least doing serious injury that way.  If your life is on the line -- your attacker's should be to.  It's only fair!



I agree.  And I want to add to the line I bolded, above: it's not just people who are philosophically opposed who cannot kill in such situations; it's also people who do not have the training necessary to know _how_ to kill.  It's easy for us, as martial artists, to sit here and say "well, you _have_ to kill in this situation" - but we have to remember that the majority of women in such situations don't have our training, and therefore our knowledge of what constitutes a vital spot when attacking with a knife.  Women in such situations are, often, frozen with fear - something their attackers count on - and are focusing only on the thought of getting away, as quickly and as far away as possible.  Hesitation in such a situation - even the time it takes to try to decide _which_ target to strike with an unfamiliar implement (knife, gun, club, whatever the attacker is using), or striking a target and _not_ killing because you struck too shallowly, or missed the vital target, could prove to be just as fatal as not striking.  The choice is not so black and white for many people in reality as it is in print.

Realistically, unless and until you have been in such a situation, there's no real way to know just how you will react.  Theory is great - but if you can't apply it, it's useless... and until you _have _applied it, you don't know if it's useful or not.  And just because something works for one person, doesn't mean it's the right choice for another - or that, even if it _is_ the right choice, that it will work for everyone the same way in every situation.


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## wesley (Nov 7, 2007)

well.. given any length of knife, i would have gone for a cut at the neck. at the least he would bleed out, at most you could get the wind pipe and that would put the subject down in a hurry. 

stabbing an opponent is not the way to go with a knife. for several reason's: 1) it's very hard to remove a knife once it's in someone. 2) a stab wound will only bleed out a lot if you can get the knife out, leaving the knife in keeps the bleeding slow 3) stabbing an opponent leaves you within range for a counter while you try to remove your knife. 
(although, if you are in a position where you can stab your opponent and you KNOW it will kill them instantly, then stabbing is perfectly ok.)

of course, these girls didn't know how to perfectly kill someone, but fighting back is what counts. i applaude them for their bravery.


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## shesulsa (Nov 8, 2007)

A bowie knife.  Hm.  They come in various lengths but the term is often used to describe a longer, larger blade than 6" or 8."

Given:


I have the knowledge I currently actually possess
The bowie is reasonably sharp
I have a partner
We have managed to unfetter ourselves
******* is sleeping
Partner would use shirt, long sock, bra to pull and hold *******'s head flush against the headrest while I cut across his body - across and through his left bicep, torso and right bicep in (hopefully) one swipe - this would incapacitate his arms, hopefully, grab a firearm and hold it to his head.  Partner can escape or get the other then escape followed by me.

My problem with a slit throat is that it doesn't often mean fast death unless there is spinal cord damage such that the recipient is paralyzed and thus incapacitated.

But in all seriousness - these girls fought back and good for them.  If I'm going down, I'll do everything I can to make sure that ******* never forgets me.


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## tellner (Nov 8, 2007)

Shesulsa, I'm not trying to pick on you. And I really do respect your opinions. But you might want to consider things a little more carefully. Let's start with your plan.



shesulsa said:


> A bowie knife.  Hm.  They come in various lengths but the term is often used to describe a longer, larger blade than 6" or 8."


Even if it's only four inches long it will still reach to the bottom of the peanut butter jar, and that's as far as it has to go.



> Partner would use shirt, long sock, bra to pull and hold *******'s head flush against the headrest while I cut across his body - across and through his left bicep, torso and right bicep in (hopefully) one swipe - this would incapacitate his arms, hopefully, grab a firearm and hold it to his head.  Partner can escape or get the other then escape followed by me.



That doesn't make much sense. It requires coordination between two people, fumbling for a sock or whatever, deploying it, not getting in each others' way and so on. It's needlessly complicated. It requires talking to each other without waking him. It demands that one person get partially undressed temporarily disabling herself and without making any noise. And you'll be wrestling around at close quarters while trying to get a clear shot that has to cover a huge target without stabbing your friend in the confusion.

If you're going to immobilize the head just grab onto it with both hands, put your weight on it and hold on for dear life. That's simpler, quicker and more effective. Knowing what you know you could turn it into a naked choke and keep him disabled for a while longer if you were so inclined.

The attack also has me scratching my head. The odds of you disabling both arms with a single shallow cut across the biceps are just about zero. The shallow slice across the torso is even less effective. All you will do is make him hurt, mad and awake. You'll have lost your one advantage. He still has the gun at can't miss range. You've shown him that you aren't psychologically capable of disabling or killing him. There's only one way this is going to end, and it's not good for you and your friend.

On the other hand, if your friend can extricate herself from her bra she might be able to run away while he's killing you. That's not much comfort.

Given that do you really think there's any chance you're going to wrestle the gun away from him? And if you do, so what? He knows you won't kill him. If you weren't willing to when you had a clear shot will you magically be able to when he knows what's going on? And what do you do afterwards? Sit there forever until someone comes and takes care of everything for you? 

Self defensers with firearms familiarity always say the same thing: "It's not the dope on the gun. It's the dope behind the gun." It isn't a magic talisman that paralyzes people through fear of its awesomeness. It's an extension of your will. If the will isn't there the gun is worthless.



> My problem with a slit throat is that it doesn't often mean fast death unless there is spinal cord damage such that the recipient is paralyzed and thus incapacitated.



I am afraid I must disagree. If you cut any of the great vessels of the neck unconsciousness through blood loss occurs in a few seconds. If you get the subclavian artery or carotid it will happen in just a few arterial spurts. I've seen it done a couple times to man-sized animals. Even a stuck pig which is larger thrashes around for less than half a minute and doesn't move again. 

If you interrupt the spinal column or the brainstem it's all over. If you just put the tip of the knife right up against the eye and push down with all your weight it will all be over. Odds are he won't even twitch.



> But in all seriousness - these girls fought back and good for them.  If I'm going down, I'll do everything I can to make sure that ******* never forgets me.



With that statement you have just crossed over the line from self defense to crime. Your legal and ethical right to self protection is entirely a matter of preserving innocent life. If you wound someone so that he "never forgets me" you have stepped outside of those boundaries and have become a criminal yourself.

It's a matter of where a person is coming from, their values, their motivation and their fundamental character. This is about as stark a kill or be killed situation as you will read about. G-d forbid you should ever have to live through it. The test is whether you are emotionally prepared to do what you have to to stay alive and to keep another innocent person alive. If you are, the choice is brutally simple. There's no "if" or "what" to consider. And there's precious few choices as to how. 

If you aren't, you aren't. I won't say that your choice is better or worse than mine. That's a fundamental moral question which can only be between a person and her or his conscience. It will put you at a severe tactical disadvantage. There are no doubts about that. But if that is one of your deeply held bedrock beliefs it can be worth it.

It leaves the question  of whether ther are circumstances under which you _would_ cripple or kill someone still unanswered. That is one that you will have to figure out for yourself. Ayoob and others call it "The Decision", and it's most commonly made on the spot (bad) or after uncomfortable consideration, often at three in the morning. 

Over the fifteen or so years we taught women's self defense we several hours to the legal and ethical implications, more in the hope of letting people clarify their own values than anything else. Among the questions we threw out for people to think of on their own were:


Are there circumstances under which you would kill or seriously injure someone else in self defense?
Are there things you would never do to defend yourself? Break a bone? Blind? Paralyze? Kill?
How does this change if you are defending someone else? A friend? A spouse? Your child? If the answer is different, why is it different?
We found that a lot of students would hold back on their own account. But they had no inhibitions whatsoever when it came to defending a loved one. It might be best to start another thread to speculate on that one. 

It's not a bad idea to sit down and ask oneself these questions from time to time. It is an uncomfortable exercise. But if you really address it and don't just fall into pre-set responses it can be very valuable. You will be clear and at peace with your decision. When you have to act you will do it unhesitatingly and with a clear conscience. And that's a very good thing. From a martial arts and self defense standpoint it is the *only* important question.


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## wesley (Nov 8, 2007)

i completely agree with tellner. 

having someone in a position where you can kill them, and mutilating them in the process only puts you on the same level as them. 

if the only way to escape your capture is to kill him, then it is the logical choice. 

"JUSTICE NEVER TO TAKE LIFE WITHOUT CAUSE"
(anyone in Tae Kwon Do and HwaRang Do should know this by heart!)

and yes.. going for any of the major vessels of the neck is probably the quickest choice. At a high heart rate a person will bleed to death in less than 1 minute..which, after only a few seconds they dont have enough strength to do more than flop around...


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## jks9199 (Nov 8, 2007)

tellner said:


> Quote:
> But in all seriousness - these girls fought back and good for them. If I'm going down, I'll do everything I can to make sure that ******* never forgets me.
> 
> With that statement you have just crossed over the line from self defense to crime. Your legal and ethical right to self protection is entirely a matter of preserving innocent life. If you wound someone so that he "never forgets me" you have stepped outside of those boundaries and have become a criminal yourself.
> ...


 
I agree largely with Tellner's post... but I think he read into Shesulsa's post a little.  I think Shesulsa was saying that, if someone's attacking her, she's decided that she's going to do anything and everything necessary to get away.  Put it along the lines of "if they're gonna kill me, I'm gonna take 'em with me" or "you can run, but you only go to jail tired" sorts of bravado.

Tellner's point about weighing your willingness to defend yourself is vital, however.  Especially if you're going to carry a gun.  You have to make those decisions ahead of time, and mentally rehearse them at a minimum.  Ideally, find some willing training partners, and do some realistic practice and training.  Because if you haven't decided ahead of time, then programmed it into yourself with many rehearsals (mental and physical), ideally under a variety of stressors, you'll almost certainly freeze.

I still remember the first time I dealt with someone resisting arrest.  I froze briefly.  And I know I'm not alone, 'cause I've seen others do it, too.  (And I've seen it in various sparring arenas, too.)  No matter the rehearsal, the training, or the years of martial arts training I had done before hand -- my first reaction was "Wha?!  He's not doing what I want him to!"  Once I shook out of that, I took care of business... but there was that momentary shock.


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## seninoniwashi (Nov 8, 2007)

sl2squeeze said:


> If you were in this situation and had only one chance to kill the maniac who kidnapped you, where would you stab him? Keep in mind that the kidnapper, although sleeping, had two guns on his person.


 
That's a very hard question to answer. I would like to say yes but I can't say unless I was in that position. To stab someone in the throat that's defenseless in their sleep would be a hard thing for me to do. Who knows how much farther it would go if not stopped.

I would look at other variables in the equation. It was noted that he had two guns on him. How old were the two girls? Was there the option of disarming the guy and holding him at gun point?


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## elder999 (Nov 9, 2007)

I think I remember this case. The girls were very young-less than fifteen, if I recall correctly. They were probably not trained, and probably very slight. Plus, they were in the backseat of the vehicle, which, as someone pointed out, probably didn't have back doors. The best and logical place to use a knife against him was in the neck: he was asleep in the front seat, and they probably had to reach over the seat to get at him and the knife. I remember thinking that they did very well-at 13, my daughter had been training for a while, and was already close to her full height of 6'-amd far more of a jock than I've ever been-I stopped playing basketball with her when she was 15, as it was just too humiliating being whooped by my daughter. I like to think she'd have cut the guy's head off, but I'm grateful that she hasn't had to face anything like that, and pray she never does. It's also worth noting that if the guy was anything like others who've committed such crimes, he'd probably have awakened somewhat more sober, and killed them.

Needless to say, _I'd_ have done my best to decapitate the sob...


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## shesulsa (Nov 9, 2007)

Tellner, you said you're not picking on me ... but a comment on my comment on blade length - I know how long a blade need be, but thank you.

While you have a point about fumbling and waking the *******, I'm suggesting grabbing something to address to his neck and pull back with - if a rope or strap is available (next to the bowie knife :shrug: ) one can use that.

I do believe in making use of your partner if they're capable and willing.  Now, you are suggesting a young female reach around the back of a seat and restrain a man's head.  What I'm saying is that me, with my long, meaty arms and superior-to-most-female-and-some-male upper body strength would *still* have problems containing his head back against the headrest for much time at all.  What I'm suggesting is that a rope or bra or whatever could be grabbed quickly (and yes dear, I can remove my bra quicker than any man I've ever seriously dated) around his throat, a knee for leverage on the back of the seat and all strength addressed to a handful of strap/bra/rope can be maintained with more efficient use of the generally inferior female upper body strength.

As for the cut - if I'm the one cutting (and I'd lay you dollars to gravel I would be) I assure you that cut is not shallow.  In my cut I have severed arm muscles, abdominals and ripped open his gut - especially with the aid of a large knife.  I understand your argument about the slit throat, but I hope you understand mine - I know medical professionals who have reprimanded me in thinking a slit throat is a golden answer.  They have seen people walk in the ER door with bleeding, open throats.  Your argument doesn't make much sense to me - I think you don't understand knife grip perhaps??  How much have you trained with knives?  I don't intend to draw the edge ever-so-gently across his skin as with a scalpel.  I'm going to put a reverse grip on any blade 12" or less, plunge it into his arm and draw hard across his whole body.  Now I know this takes strength and yes, I think I can do this.  If the muscles in his arms are severed he cannot move his arms nor manipulate his torso enough to struggle for gun retention and that won't be a huge deal - sorry.  If you can retain even one firearm with severed biceps and intestines in your lap I'd be happy to call you teacher ... I'd really like to know how you do that.  

Killing him?  Well, now, that depends on if he's high enough to have more fight in him - I'll be able to say in court later that I tried to just hurt him enough to get away but he ultimately gave me no other choice.  We don't like to think about the law in this kind of situation but we victims must, unfortunately, do so.

Some factors that affect my plan are:  


level of restraint on we the victims.  If escaping the restraints is much struggle or the hands aren't free enough, there must be a blade-plunging effort instead.
Clothing the ******* is wearing.  A tee shirt I'm fairly confident I can cut through - anything heavier, no.
Sharpness of the blade.  If the blade is sharp, all the better for my plan.  If very dull, more appropriate for a plunge attack.
Length of the blade.  If the knife is too long, approaching the man from the rear on the left side will be difficult and a subclavean plunge on the right is not as certain to be deadly nor accurate nor even disabling enough for effective escape.  Along with width and shape it can also affect your plan of occipital entry.
My plan certainly isn't the only option - there are many others that can accommodate a dull, long blade but we'll just be guessing more ... again.

I'll thank you for your comment regarding my desire to ensure that any attack on me which I feel I cannot survive will be met with brute force.  I'll make sure the policewoman who inspired that attitude knows she'd be a criminal if she gathered DNA under her fingernails, maimed the attacker such that he must go to the hospital and his wounds be matched with my hopefully found body.  

You clearly don't know much about what I've been through in the attacks on my life and personal being when you made some of the statements you did, so I'll forgive you for that.  If you think for a second I haven't contemplated complex situations regarding my life, the life of another, defending a loved one even from law enforcement officers, not only are you greviously wrong, you have serious notions that you have the right to kill at will at any provocation and I cannot, even with all the **** that's come down my pipeline, support that.  I've met women who went to prison for defending their own lives and while that's the worst goddamn shame I've ever heard in my entire life, I can't dismiss that possibility when fighting for mine or a loved one's.

Now you and I can sit here and keyboard jockey all damn day, but the bottom line is we were not there. We were not two 15 year old girls who'd just had the worst experience of their entire lives literally thrust upon them.  We cannot know unless we have been.  And thus, my argument here is done out of respect for the girls in the case.

Perhaps the next Meet & Greet, eh Tellner?  We can pull a seat out of a car and explore this as a drill.


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## tellner (Nov 9, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I agree largely with Tellner's post... but I think he read into Shesulsa's post a little.  I think Shesulsa was saying that, if someone's attacking her, she's decided that she's going to do anything and everything necessary to get away.  Put it along the lines of "if they're gonna kill me, I'm gonna take 'em with me" or "you can run, but you only go to jail tired" sorts of bravado.



You may well be right. I've gotten a little oversensitive about people saying that sort of thing. In this case it wouldn't make any difference. "Kidnapped, Raped Schoolgirls Kill Monster. Charges Expected". Yeah. But there have been "good shoots" that turned into felony convictions because of what people said afterwards or the kind of things they said before. "Samson slew the Philistines with the jawbone of an ***. Every day thousands do themselves in with the same weapon."  I've got a healthy respect bordering on fear of what can happen when the Law in its Majesty sets off in the wrong direction and decides to leave tire tracks on you.


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## jks9199 (Nov 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> You may well be right. I've gotten a little oversensitive about people saying that sort of thing. In this case it wouldn't make any difference. "Kidnapped, Raped Schoolgirls Kill Monster. Charges Expected". Yeah. But there have been "good shoots" that turned into felony convictions because of what people said afterwards or the kind of things they said before. "Samson slew the Philistines with the jawbone of an ***. Every day thousands do themselves in with the same weapon."  I've got a healthy respect bordering on fear of what can happen when the Law in its Majesty sets off in the wrong direction and decides to leave tire tracks on you.


Absolutely!  I've seen people railroad themselves in court...  And I've seen people lots guiltier get off because they listened to their attorney.

It's always worth thinking about how you'd like to live with what you wrote a few years down the road in court.  Not live in terror... but be aware of it.  'Cause I'm absolutely certain that it's only a matter of time before internet postings are called to discredit someone in a case like this.

I wrote "bravado" intentionally.  I've had people run from me and get away.  Not many, but it's happened.  And it's happened to other cops, too.  And that "tried by 12" line... It doesn't mention that you might find yourself locked up waiting for trial, spend vast sums on legal counsel and bankrupt yourself, and that's before the inevitable civil trial...


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 9, 2007)

If you are in that type of situation, STAB, cutting isnt what I would recommend. Anywhere from the head to the torso would do just fine. Repeat as necessary.


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## tellner (Nov 9, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> While you have a point about fumbling and waking the *******, I'm suggesting grabbing something to address to his neck and pull back with - if a rope or strap is available (next to the bowie knife :shrug: ) one can use that.


You don't need to control it for long to insert the knife and cut through. When I've slaughtered animals it never took more than about a second and a half to grab, stick, cut and make the second cut. I'm not a shochet, but it's not that difficult  



> I do believe in making use of your partner if they're capable and willing.


Definitely, but in a case like this time is of the essence. The time spent communicating and the noise you make can very well cost you your lives. 



> Now, you are suggesting a young female reach around the back of a seat and restrain a man's head.  What I'm saying is that me, with my long, meaty arms and superior-to-most-female-and-some-male upper body strength would *still* have problems containing his head back against the headrest for much time at all.


Honestly, it's not that difficult for the very short time you'd need. You're selling yourself short. It's just for long enough to steady the head against the insertion. If things don't go utterly wahoonie shaped that's all it will take. Extra time spent finding the proper tool, deploying it and then getting back to what you were doing might well make the difference between success and failure. If a person can do this to a camel or cow - and they do - you can certainly do it to a person. The difference in strength between you and a man is nothing compared to the between a strong man and a wimpy camel. 

It might well work. I'm just thinking it isn't necessary and comes with a whole extra set of risks.



> What I'm suggesting is that a rope or bra or whatever could be grabbed quickly (and yes dear, I can remove my bra quicker than any man I've ever seriously dated) around his throat, a knee for leverage on the back of the seat and all strength addressed to a handful of strap/bra/rope can be maintained with more efficient use of the generally inferior female upper body strength.



Well, it's been a long time since I dated. And the last couple girlfriends I had before I got married didn't wear bras, so I'll bow to your superior expertise 

It comes down to effectiveness, time and noise. Weigh the risks and make your choices. I sincerely believe that you're making things more complicated than you need to. Under stress and fear any added complication is a hazard. the KISS principle is definitely called for. A dead simple plan with nothing extra that solves the problem in the most efficient and most direct fashion possible. No added steps. Nothing that isn't essential. 



> As for the cut - if I'm the one cutting (and I'd lay you dollars to gravel I would be) I assure you that cut is not shallow.  In my cut I have severed arm muscles, abdominals and ripped open his gut - especially with the aid of a large knife.  I understand your argument about the slit throat, but I hope you understand mine - I know medical professionals who have reprimanded me in thinking a slit throat is a golden answer.


I've been one of those professionals, back when I was a nurse in the ER. And I spent a certain amount of gruesome time researching cut and stab wounds. With all respect, for what you want to be effective you'll have to cut darned near all the way through both biceps. You'll have to not only cut through the abdominal wall but manage to catch something that will cause a quick drop in blood pressure. Unless you skewer the liver, sever the abdominal aorta (which is deep inside) or something similar your chances are not as good. IF you really are stabbing and cutting deep enough to sever the bicep you will almost certainly slow yourself down before you get to the abdomen, possibly getting your knife stuck in the process. And that's assuming that you get the soft parts and don't go high in the dark and confusion and slide the knife across the ribs.

There are no magic bullets. Nothing is guaranteed to work. But while "slitting the throat" isn't 100% assured stab or cut there that severs the great vessels is about as good as it gets unless you actually rummage around in the brain pan. There is a lot of high-percentage targets in a small space. The odds are much better for a prompt resolution. 



> They have seen people walk in the ER door with bleeding, open throats.  Your argument doesn't make much sense to me - I think you don't understand knife grip perhaps??  How much have you trained with knives?


I think I have been training with blades at least as long as you have been doing martial arts. My first martial art was fencing. My first training with knives in particular was about thirty years ago. There was a bit of a hiatus during high school, but I picked up blade arts again in college. I've had excellent instruction in FMA and got my first certification more than twenty years ago. I've slaughtered a fair number of animals, was invited by the late Al Mar to help teach knife work to law enforcement a couple times, had enough chops to teach the blade work class at Sifu Dacascos' school for a while, and neither he nor Sifu Endrizzi would have asked me to if I hadn't been up to scratch. Both of them were well trained and had extensive real life experiences. I've been cut and have cut people. Thank G-d nobody died. My later teachers have all had excellent skills and a regrettable collection of scars. They seem to think I'm not an embarrassment to them. I've made my own knives in the past and can dress a carcass or work a full day in the kitchen.

So I think I know how to hold a knife. And I know something about their use and limitations.

[...]




> Some factors that affect my plan are:
> 
> level of restraint on we the victims.  If escaping the restraints is much struggle or the hands aren't free enough, there must be a blade-plunging effort instead.
> Clothing the ******* is wearing.  A tee shirt I'm fairly confident I can cut through - anything heavier, no.
> ...



You are, of course, correct. It all depends on the situation, the knife, where the bad guy is, and all those other things. No disagreement there. 

The eye, the brainstem and so on were simply examples of other targets that could stop the fight immediately with a lot fewer steps than the particular one you planned.



> I'll thank you for your comment regarding my desire to ensure that any attack on me which I feel I cannot survive will be met with brute force.  I'll make sure the policewoman who inspired that attitude knows she'd be a criminal if she gathered DNA under her fingernails, maimed the attacker such that he must go to the hospital and his wounds be matched with my hopefully found body.


I thank you for your superior snarky sarcasm. It wasn't a very good attempt and didn't have the desired effect, so I'll let it slide.

On that subject you might want to stop seeing all disagreement as a personal attack. I don't think I ever said anywhere, anyhow that hurting him was a bad thing. But you yourself said, in your own words, that you wanted to do it so that he'd remember it. In other words, your *stated* goal was to punish, not defend yourself. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words on your part, and we'll just let it go at that. With your experience and training you know that causing pain is a poor choice of final goals in a deadly force encounter. And if you say that that's what you were trying to do, rather than defend yourself and stop him from hurting you, you've just hurt your defense in court. 

Yes, the situations of men and women are different. It's still a bad idea to tell people that your intention was to do something outside the bounds of the law even if it's just self-encouragement. The prosecutor or at least the bad guy's attorney will twist it around and use it against you.




> You clearly don't know much about what I've been through in the attacks on my life and personal being when you made some of the statements you did, so I'll forgive you for that.


Thank you. And likewise. You're not aware of some of what I've been through and how I ended up where I am now. So I'll extend the same courtesy. All I have to go on is your words. Your words and plan certainly gave every indication of not having thought the situation through. An attack with a low chance of success and treating the gun like a magic talisman that will make him sit there and do whatever you want? Combine that with your unfortunate choice of words, and it certainly doesn't sound good.,



> Now you and I can sit here and keyboard jockey all damn day, but the bottom line is we were not there.


Precisely. They did what they had to. They got a nearly perfect outcome. They are alive. He's dead. But if you want to learn something from the lesson it's important to think about it a little. They didn't come up with an ornate, elaborate plan. The did the simplest, most obvious, highest percentage thing they could. It worked. And it was pretty much exactly what everyone here with maybe three exceptions including you favored. You can't simultaneously say "This is better because" and then say "They didn't do that, but because what they did worked you can't find any faults with my analysis." That just isn't honest. And it detracts from your otherwise well-reasoned argument.

I would very much like to take you up on your offer of getting together and trying some of this out. It's always worth doing reality checks. And I do think we would get on much better in person than through text. From your style of writing you are very much like me - much more assertive in print than in person. It's a shame you were busy during the MT get together earlier this year. And we're hoping to do a couple WSD workshops for some local groups including the newly-relocated ***** Magazine staff. We could always use the benefit of your experience and perspective.

Regards,
Todd


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## tellner (Nov 9, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> If you are in that type of situation, STAB, cutting isnt what I would recommend. Anywhere from the head to the torso would do just fine. Repeat as necessary.



Stab, cut, butterfly, fillet, fricasse, chop, bone and blend.


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## jks9199 (Nov 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> Stab, cut, butterfly, fillet, fricasse, chop, bone and blend.


Why not puree? or dice?  

Let's not mince, though...  Too open for misunderstanding!


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 10, 2007)

sl2squeeze said:


> I was watching a show on E! today that talked about this guy in Arizona who kidnapped two girls at gunpoint and raped them. He then proceeded to tie them both up and put them in the back seat of his Bronco truck.
> 
> He pulled his car over into a desolate area and fell asleep in the driver's seat while these girls are alive and awake in the back seat with a bowie knife that he forgot was in the car. One of the girls managed to get free and stabbed the guy in the neck while he was sleeping.
> 
> ...



If I was with someone else and in the back seat and the other person might make too much noise if I cut them free, I would attack and attack. If it was me knowing he had a gun in the front seat say by his leg or in his hand. 

I would stab him in the eye. I know it might be a hard target, but it is where I would start. I would start with the precision attack first then I would drop it down to the mouth and try to rip out the check and tongue. Then I would make the next stab into the throat. I attack his eyes his mouth and his throat. I try to make this not only physically an atack but also an emotional one in that someone with metal in their brain and missing an eye and have their face hanigng open and then their neck cut open and with me continuing to move. 

If could free the person with me first and then get them ready to run, then I would attack and have them run and not look back. If I make it I will be behind them close enough. If I do not stopping is not going to help me, I have made the choice get free and tell someone. 

Of course as my friend "G" has stated based upon this being me with my knowledge and skill set and capabilities and I was in this position. 






shesulsa said:


> A bowie knife. Hm. They come in various lengths but the term is often used to describe a longer, larger blade than 6" or 8."
> 
> Given:
> 
> ...



I agree if they could work together as a unti it would have been real good. Here is what I imagine. One is free. Not much time to react. Not much time to think. Cut the other person free. Ok, not knowing how to get the gun, or wanting to fight for it being women who most likely (* not always *) smaller and with less strength and even if they have the strength they are not in the position to have strength for their frame. The guy in the front seat can close up and have a strong frame and turn, break the gun free and shoot you. 

I can see quick interaction of going for the door and stabbing down into the neck not worrying about death but worrying about getting the door open and getting out and away. 

I think they did well to react at all.


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## Ian Demagii (Nov 15, 2007)

I insert the knife forcefully deep into the back of his neck just under the skull. The primary thing is to prevent him from using the guns. Then I grab for a gun, and if I get it, I empty the clip/chamber.

I would probably avoid shooting him in the brain as it would be construed as an intentional kill-legal ramifications in my state.

Ian


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## thardey (Nov 15, 2007)

Ian Demagii said:


> I insert the knife forcefully deep into the back of his neck just under the skull. The primary thing is to prevent him from using the guns. Then I grab for a gun, and if I get it, I empty the clip/chamber.
> 
> I would probably avoid shooting him in the brain as it would be construed as an intentional kill-legal ramifications in my state.
> 
> Ian



Shooting in the brain is an intentional kill, but emptying the clip at close range isn't? 


Is the question what would _I_ do in this situation, or what would I do if I was a 15 year old girl with little or no training?

Because _I_ would have guaranteed that if he did manage to get me in the back of his Blazer in the first place, he wouldn't be comfortable enough to fall asleep in the second.


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## KenpoTex (Nov 15, 2007)

Ian Demagii said:
			
		

> *I insert the knife forcefully deep into the back of his neck just under the skull.* The primary thing is to prevent him from using the guns. Then I grab for a gun, and if I get it, I empty the clip/chamber.
> 
> *I would probably avoid shooting him in the brain as it would be construed as an intentional kill-legal ramifications in my state*.





so severing the brainstem is ok, shooting him in the brain is not?


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## tellner (Nov 16, 2007)

Construed as intent to kill? Hell, yes. Under the circumstances it is entirely warranted and the only reasonable option. If there was ever an "immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury", "in fear for my life, I had no other choice" or any other standard a raped, brutalized fifteen year old girl taking her one chance to stop her rapist and future murderer fits it. I can't imagine a prosecutor trying to get an indictment or a cop failing to screw up the arrest on some vital technicality. Much less a judge letting it go past "Case dismissed! And I want a word with that numbskull of a DA."


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## Ian Demagii (Nov 19, 2007)

Using the knife was to escape. Would you severe the spinal column? That is in doubt- especially under stress. Shooting him in the head *afterwards* is a different thing. 

I asked a policeman in my state about self defense shootings, and he said  that they do not ever shoot anyone in the head in Ohio as it constitutes an intentional killing. My state is not a "stand your ground state."

Ian


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## tellner (Nov 19, 2007)

Police are not lawyers. They (often) understand the parts of the law that affect their jobs. They are not experts on the law in general, and many aren't clear about the distinction between the law and their departmental policies. If you want legal advice go to an attorney. Or do what every serious self defenser, martial artist or firearms owner should do. Take LFI-1. 

I'm not an attorney, and you'd be a fool to take my opinion on anything relating to the legal system. But if I understand things correctly there are times when the law understands that taking human life is necessary. This is true even in "Duty to Retreat" States. In those cases you have to weigh the risks of possible legal consequences against the real immediate risk of having being the victim of a horrible crime right now.


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## Doc_Jude (Nov 20, 2007)

Ian Demagii said:


> Using the knife was to escape. Would you severe the spinal column? That is in doubt- especially under stress. Shooting him in the head *afterwards* is a different thing.
> 
> I asked a policeman in my state about self defense shootings, and he said  that they do not ever shoot anyone in the head in Ohio as it constitutes an intentional killing. My state is not a "stand your ground state."
> 
> Ian



Your knowledge of anatomy is astounding...


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