# Any California Law Enforcement People out there?



## allenjp (May 30, 2008)

I have some questions about self defense laws in California. I work in a courthouse, so I could ask some of the deputies there but I don't want them to start looking for me to break the law so I though I would avoid that attention and ask here. 

I already know that my local sherriff won't give me a ccw permit because in his mind only LEO's and those who donate to his election campaigns should have them. (I tried the legal way).

My question is what about other types of self defense instruments? I know possesion of batons is illegal, but what if I happen to be carrying a hanbo (I mean walking cane). If someone that is *unarmed* attacks me unprovoked, can I use that sort of "weapon" to defend myself? 

Are all types of shuriken illegal to posess? Or is it just using them as an offensive weapon that's illegal? If it is legal to posses them, can I carry them? Can I use them against an *unarmed attacker? *What if there are more than one attacker?

What about an improvised kusari fundo (I mean...a small section of rope) in my pocket? If I use that against an unarmed attacker, is that illegal?

My purpose is that I want to be able to defend myself and my family if need be in the most efficient way possible. I am learning unarmed defense techniques, but of course a weapon is the preferred way to do this. I am not looking to be a tough guy, or the "big man on the block". Just the *most* effective way to legally defend my self. And of course there is always the possibility (or probability) that someone that decides to attack me may be armed...

Any police from California out there that can enlighten me? Any DA's or criminal defense attorneys that know this stuff?

Thanks guys (and gals).


----------



## shesulsa (May 30, 2008)

As a native Californian (I got over it) I would say the SD laws used to change so fast down there my underwear got jealous.  Imagine the horror.

You should really sit down with a defense attorney to find out the ins and outs of what you can and cannot do with improvised weapons.  I think if you want to apply for a concealed weapons license you probably could get one given where you live (though I wouldn't bet on it).  

Don't ask LEOs because while they know the laws it's the attorney who will argue for you in court, so see one of _them_.  The California Bar Association used to have a program where you could get a low-cost referral for a consultation for 30 minutes, 60 minutes or 90 minutes.

Good luck and let us know what you find out, please!


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2008)

The one thing that I will comment on, I do believe that shuriken are completely illegal.  Can't have 'em, can't carry 'em, can't buy and sell 'em, can't use or practice with 'em.  That goes for balisongs as well.  Funny tho, I could list several places in Chinatown that sell shuriken very openly.  I'm not sure why that is...


----------



## FearlessFreep (May 30, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> The one thing that I will comment on, I do believe that shuriken are completely illegal.  Can't have 'em, can't carry 'em, can't buy and sell 'em, can't use or practice with 'em.  That goes for balisongs as well.  Funny tho, I could list several places in Chinatown that sell shuriken very openly.  I'm not sure why that is...



And I believe one member of this board warns against storing them in your underwear


----------



## allenjp (May 30, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> As a native Californian (I got over it) I would say the SD laws used to change so fast down there my underwear got jealous. Imagine the horror.
> 
> You should really sit down with a defense attorney to find out the ins and outs of what you can and cannot do with improvised weapons. I think if you want to apply for a concealed weapons license you probably could get one given where you live (though I wouldn't bet on it).
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the advice, it's a good idea. I am an interpreter in the court in Vista, California so I work very closely with the public defenders all the time. I am sure one of them would be willing to talk to me about it. I was asking for advise from the LEO's because they are the ones who make the initial decision to arrest or not, and although I know an attorney will argue for me in court, I'd like to avoid going to jail even for a little while (work a lot in jails, not a pretty place). 

I would still like to invite comments from other users here who might know anything though. I will post whatever I am able to find out on my own.


----------



## allenjp (May 30, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> The one thing that I will comment on, I do believe that shuriken are completely illegal. Can't have 'em, can't carry 'em, can't buy and sell 'em, can't use or practice with 'em. That goes for balisongs as well. Funny tho, I could list several places in Chinatown that sell shuriken very openly. I'm not sure why that is...


 
Maybe they're not sharpened?


----------



## allenjp (May 30, 2008)

OK, so I went and talked to one of the sheriff deputies here that I trust, and have a good rapport with, he said that as long as you are actually physically attacked, you are clear to defend yourself with a weapon, as long as that "weapon" is legal to posess and carry in the first place. He did say that flyingcrane is right, shuriken are completely outlawed. You also cannot carry a knife as a defensive weapon. But I asked him about the examples of improvised hanbo and kusari fundo and he said no problem, even if the attacker is unarmed, as long as you are not the agressor (I guess that part goes without saying). He also said that you are only allowed to use as much force as a reasonable person would deem necessary to remove the threat. So in other words, you can take the agressor down, but not continue to choke them or wail on them once they are no longer capable of mounting an attack on you.

I am still going to talk to a defense attorney about it and will post whatever they tell me.


----------



## shesulsa (May 30, 2008)

It used to be (and probably still is) illegal to carry nunchakus as well.  Hm. It's illegal to carry any knife? Even 1" blades?  That's even stricter than I remember.

Probably any kind of stick with a string on it, obvious martial arts weapons, kubatons all used to be illegal. I think it even used to be illegal to carry chains unless they were in a box in the trunk or hatch of your car and not accessible to the driver or any passenger inside the vehicle.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Maybe they're not sharpened?


 

well, I believe they are not "razor sharp" but at least some of them are certainly edged and could be sharpened with a modest amount of work.  It's kind of a weird thing to see, knowing how State law frowns upon them.  They are out in the open, too.  Maybe in the back of the store, but in a proper display case and such.  It's not like you have to whisper a secret password to get access to them in the hidden back room, or something.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> Funny tho, I could list several places in Chinatown that sell shuriken very openly. I'm not sure why that is...


 
Same reason they can openly sell fireworks in NYC Chinatown when Fireworks are Illegal in NYS


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> It used to be (and probably still is) illegal to carry nunchakus as well. Hm. It's illegal to carry any knife? Even 1" blades? That's even stricter than I remember.
> 
> Probably any kind of stick with a string on it, obvious martial arts weapons, kubatons all used to be illegal. I think it even used to be illegal to carry chains unless they were in a box in the trunk or hatch of your car and not accessible to the driver or any passenger inside the vehicle.


 

Yeah, I believe nunchaku are completely illegal as well.  

It's kind of a weird juxtaposition, given that you can easily buy all kinds of other martial arts training weapons, including swords, spears, and three-sectioned staffs.  I suppose the difference is that these things can't be carried concealed, and typically people just don't roam the streets anymore with a sword at their hip or a spear in hand.  So I suppose they figure the only time you will have something like this is when you are training or at a tournament or something.  

Here in San Francisco, many people train in the parks on the weekends.  Many of these people use weapons as well, usually of the staff, spear, sword variety.  I don't usually notice chuks or shuriken and the like.  But at any rate, these obvious weapons are used quite openly and I've never seen the police harrass anyone, and I've never been harassed myself.  I think it has become an accepted thing for people to train in the parks, and as long as they aren't causing problems for other people, and they are just practicing, the police are content to ignore them, even if they might be breaking the law.

Typically, the weaponry is not exactly real, however.  Most people (myself excluded) are using wushu weapons, which means sword blades are flimsy and not sharp, spear tips are quite small and dull and made of cheap sheet metal, staffs may be lightweight and such.  Of course you could still hurt someone with these things, but they just aren't as "threatening" as real weaponry.  Maybe this is part of the reason they don't get hassled.  I sort of count on this and just keep a low profile and don't attract attention to myself when I train in the park, and I get away with using real weaponry.  I just try to blend in with the crowd.

But I just don't understand the harsh regulations of martial arts weapons, when you can carry guns and stuff.  California has some strict regulations against that as well, and certain areas like San Francisco are even more strict, but I believe in some parts of the State the average citizen can still get a concealed carry permit.  Given that, I don't understand why things like shuriken and knives and chucks are so severely regulated.  Of course I don't understand why people feel the need to be armed all the time anyways, but that's just me.  I appreciate the right to be armed, including guns, but I've just never felt the need to do it myself.

Anyway, that's my thoughts on it.


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Same reason they can openly sell fireworks in NYC Chinatown when Fireworks are Illegal in NYS


 
yeah, could be, but I'm not sure what that reason is either.


----------



## Empty Hands (May 30, 2008)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I believe nunchaku are completely illegal as well.



Our school has 4-5 pairs, and I've seen them on sale at several martial arts supply stores.  Real ones, solid wood and metal.  Shuriken as well, and not in Chinatown.  My understanding was that you just couldn't carry them concealed.  Or maybe even the police realize how stupid it is to be scared stiff of a weapon less dangerous than an escrima stick or a staff.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo (May 30, 2008)

It is not illegal to carry a knife in California.  It is illegal to carry a dirk or dagger. and then only if it is concealed.

PC section 12020(4):  Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

Definition of dirk or dagger is defined in subsection 24:

As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death.  A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position.

If you carry a knife concealed in the closed position, there is no problem.  When you pull it out and open it for use, whatever use that may be including self-defense, it is no longer concealed, and there is no crime.

It is just like guns.  You can not carry a gun, loaded or unloaded, underneath your cars seat.  But, you can carry an unloaded gun on the front seat of your car in plain view, and its no problem.


----------



## Xue Sheng (May 30, 2008)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> It is not illegal to carry a knife in California. It is illegal to carry a dirk or dagger. and then only if it is concealed.
> 
> PC section 12020(4): Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.
> 
> ...


 
I am wondering just how far I would get in any major city in California with a Dirk on my belt even though it is legal to carry as long as it is not concealed


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am wondering just how far I would get in any major city in California with a Dirk on my belt even though it is legal to carry as long as it is not concealed


 

yah, well, some things just attract unwanted attention if you carry them openly...


----------



## Flying Crane (May 30, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Our school has 4-5 pairs, and I've seen them on sale at several martial arts supply stores. Real ones, solid wood and metal. Shuriken as well, and not in Chinatown. My understanding was that you just couldn't carry them concealed. Or maybe even the police realize how stupid it is to be scared stiff of a weapon less dangerous than an escrima stick or a staff.


 

yeah, years ago I remember reading that there was an exception for chuks if you are in a martial arts school, or traveling to or from a martial arts school.  Under that circumstance you could have them in your car.

As to the shuriken, I do know that one martial arts supplier in San Francisco has a sign posted that they do not sell shuriken due to their outlawed status.  Those stores in Chinatown that sell them are not specific martial arts suppliers.  Rather, they are souvenir shops for tourists, altho they tend to sell a lot of cheap Japanese style swords as well, along side the jade Buddhas and other CHinese knick-knacks.  Like I said, it's a weird situation, when you step back and think about it.


----------



## chinto (Jun 1, 2008)

If you live in California, You need to go talk to a good lawyer and find out what the real story is.  the cops are NOT there to Protect you at All!! They do not usually have a lot of knowledge about what the laws are on that kind of thing specifically. 

go find a good Lawyer who deals with self defense and Criminal law... that is your best bet.


----------



## allenjp (Jun 2, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> It used to be (and probably still is) illegal to carry nunchakus as well. Hm. It's illegal to carry any knife? Even 1" blades? That's even stricter than I remember.
> 
> Probably any kind of stick with a string on it, obvious martial arts weapons, kubatons all used to be illegal. I think it even used to be illegal to carry chains unless they were in a box in the trunk or hatch of your car and not accessible to the driver or any passenger inside the vehicle.


 
No, I think it's still ok to carry knives with blades up to 3", the problem comes if you use it as a weapon. Oh, and any switchblade is strictly taboo.


----------



## allenjp (Jun 2, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Our school has 4-5 pairs, and I've seen them on sale at several martial arts supply stores. Real ones, solid wood and metal. Shuriken as well, and not in Chinatown. My understanding was that you just couldn't carry them concealed. Or maybe even the police realize how stupid it is to be scared stiff of a weapon less dangerous than an escrima stick or a staff.


 
It is a mistake to assume that any weapons law in this state makes any sense or that anyone making said laws has any scruples. Case in point: when I was eighteen, I walked into a gun store and bought a russian made SKS semi-automatic rifle. These fire the same rounds as an AK-47 and are very similar in design, they just don't have a full auto setting like the AK. I paid 180.00 and walked out with the rifle and 20 rounds of ammunition that same day. I couldn't buy a pistol though because you have to be 21 to buy a pistol, but they let me buy a much more powerful and efficient killing/bank robbery tool than any pistol ever made, cash and carry, because you only have to be eighteen to buy a rifle. And don't even get me started on the concealed carry law...just stupid, period.


----------



## KenpoTex (Jun 2, 2008)

allenjp said:


> No, I think it's still ok to carry knives with blades up to 3", the problem comes if you use it as a weapon. Oh, and any switchblade is strictly taboo.


 
umm...5-0 Kenpo posted some of the knife laws above, including a chapter number for further definitions.  I highly recommend you check that for the information you need.

If the deuputy told you that you can't carry knives (at all) then he was mistaken (unfortunately, this is often the case when trying to get advice on weapons from LEOs).

Another good resource would be the Dog Brothers Martial Arts forum as they are based out of CA


----------



## KenpoTex (Jun 2, 2008)

allenjp said:


> ... I walked into a gun store and bought a russian made SKS semi-automatic rifle. These fire the same rounds as an AK-47 and are very similar in design, they just don't have a full auto setting like the AK.


 The AK-variants you can buy in the USA don't (or at least shouldn't) have a full-auto option unless they're an NFA weapon


----------



## Empty Hands (Jun 2, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> 5-0 Kenpo posted some of the knife laws above, including a chapter number for further definitions.  I highly recommend you check that for the information you need.
> 
> If the deuputy told you that you can't carry knives (at all) then he was mistaken



I have done some googling on this subject, and found other law citations which seem to prohibit carrying knives for defense at all.  The situation is not clear for someone without in-depth knowledge.  Yet, if you do defend yourself, ignorance of the law is no excuse, eh?  What a ridiculous state of affairs.


----------



## allenjp (Jun 2, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> umm...5-0 Kenpo posted some of the knife laws above, including a chapter number for further definitions. I highly recommend you check that for the information you need.
> 
> If the deuputy told you that you can't carry knives (at all) then he was mistaken (unfortunately, this is often the case when trying to get advice on weapons from LEOs).
> 
> Another good resource would be the Dog Brothers Martial Arts forum as they are based out of CA


 
I didn't say he told me that you can't carry knives at all. What I said was he told me that you cannot use said knife as a WEAPON, whether offensive or defensive. Many people carry knives as tools, there is no problem with that as long as it meets the laws requirements (not a dirk or dagger, which is a fixed blade, or a switch blade, and with a blade 3" or shorter) the problem is in using it as a weapon. Just what he said. The deputy I talked to happens to be very much in favor of the average citizen defending themself. He is pro concealed carry in fact. I will check out Dog Brothers, thanks.


----------



## 7starmarc (Jun 2, 2008)

I don't believe that there is a general length limit on blades in Calif, particularly as it pertains to concealed folders. The only limit that I've seen in my scanning of the current laws is that related to switchblades and related knives (i.e. gravity operated, flip-opening, etc.), which is under 2". Could be wrong, but that was my understanding of the statutes.

BTW, I never cease to be amazed at the inclusion of butterfly/balisong knives in the switchblade category. They require more skill and (on average) are slower to deploy than many of today's locking blades.


----------



## allenjp (Jun 2, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> I have done some googling on this subject, and found other law citations which seem to prohibit carrying knives for defense at all. The situation is not clear for someone without in-depth knowledge. Yet, if you do defend yourself, ignorance of the law is no excuse, eh? What a ridiculous state of affairs.


 
This is just one of the many problems with california weapons and self defense laws. Asside from being nonsensical, they are not clear at all...to anyone, even judges have problems interpreting them. That is precisely why I started this thread; to get others' opinions, especially those of the people that are deciding whether or not to arrest someone after an altercation.


----------



## Hawke (Jun 3, 2008)

California self defense laws concerning weapons varies from county to county.

The knife laws are stricter in Los Angeles than the California state law.

Check with your local defense attorney.


----------



## koshojoe (Jun 3, 2008)

Hello people,  I was just surfing around other subjects and came upon this one.
What is LEOs?


----------



## koshojoe (Jun 3, 2008)

Legal Executive On board...Never mind, I should've done some homework first before post...sorry!


----------



## allenjp (Jun 3, 2008)

koshojoe said:


> Legal Executive On board...Never mind, I should've done some homework first before post...sorry!


 
Uhh...no, just in case you're not joking it stands for Law Enforcement Officers.

BTW, I live in Escondido, but I say San Diego because it is likely no one across the country or internationally knows where Escondido is. You may want to do the same, despite it's inherent beauty I'm sure Chula Vista doen't show up on any major maps lol!


----------

