# Finally!!!



## yak sao (Aug 28, 2017)

I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!

Just had to tell somebody.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2017)

No idea what it is but as it's obviously something that has made you happy it's a good thing so congratulations!


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## Danny T (Aug 28, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!
> 
> Just had to tell somebody.


Yeah!!! Hip Hip Hooray...Hooray for our side...uhh I mean for Yak Sao!!
Now welcome to the Edge of Wing Chun. You can now Slash away the art.


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## wckf92 (Aug 28, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!
> 
> Just had to tell somebody.



Awesome dude!!!!!


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 28, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!
> 
> Just had to tell somebody.


Congratulations on whatever that is.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2017)

Congratulations



Tez3 said:


> No idea what it is but as it's obviously something that has made you happy it's a good thing so congratulations!



Double knife form


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## yak sao (Aug 28, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Yeah!!! Hip Hip Hooray...Hooray for our side...uhh I mean for Yak Sao!!
> Now welcome to the Edge of Wing Chun. You can now Slash away the art.



Yes...now the real work begins.


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## anerlich (Aug 28, 2017)

Congratulations - another milestone on an endless highway.


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## Phobius (Aug 29, 2017)

yak sao said:


> Yes...now the real work begins.



Congratulations. Still trying to learn the more intricate parts of the form myself. It has many interesting aspects to teach.

May I ask when you started?


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## wayfaring (Aug 29, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!
> 
> Just had to tell somebody.


Nice congrats.


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## geezer (Aug 29, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do! Just had to tell somebody.



_*Awesome!*_ --Congrats, Yak. People from some other lineages don't realize how long the road is to learn the WT BCD.

I got through about half the form back around 2010-11, but had nobody to train with and finally put the knives aside because I was forgetting details and training bad habits. Now I barely remember the opening sections. These days I get my weapons fix from Escrima. Hopefully, someday I'll go back to the BCD.

I hope you have a sifu or hing-dai who are also training the BCD so you can train form and applications and don't end up like me!

BTW if you learned the entire BCD set, you must have also earned the _wide red stripes_ on your pants, right? I'll probably be a humble skinny-striper for the rest of my life. But since I usually work out in sweats or gym shorts, who will notice?


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## yak sao (Aug 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> _*Awesome!*_ --Congrats, Yak. People from some other lineages don't realize how long the road is to learn the WT BCD.
> 
> I got through about half the form back around 2010-11, but had nobody to train with and finally put the knives aside because I was forgetting details and training bad habits. Now I barely remember the opening sections. These days I get my weapons fix from Escrima. Hopefully, someday I'll go back to the BCD.
> 
> ...



I know this makes me a disgrace to all WT technicians everywhere, but I have never had a pair of the striped pants, skinny stripe or fat stripe, let alone the whole technician uniform.
Shun me if you must.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I know this makes me a disgrace to all WT technicians everywhere, but I have never had a pair of the striped pants, skinny stripe or fat stripe, let alone the whole technician uniform.
> Shun me if you must.


I'm shocked! Shocked, I say...and I don't even know what you are talking about. Imagine how shocking it must be to those in the know.


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## yak sao (Aug 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm shocked! Shocked, I say...and I don't even know what you are talking about. Imagine how shocking it must be to those in the know.



I know...imagine my embarrassment airing my (unstriped) dirty laundry in public


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## wingerjim (Aug 30, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!
> 
> Just had to tell somebody.


Congratulations to you. Wow 22 years, forgive me for saying this but is this the normal time frame to get to learn this form in the LT linage?


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## yak sao (Aug 30, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> Congratulations to you. Wow 22 years, forgive me for saying this but is this the normal time frame to get to learn this form in the LT linage?



No, I learned it faster than most.

I'm only half joking. There are many who have trained this lineage far longer than me who have never learned the knives. There are those of course who have learned it sooner as well, but not many.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 30, 2017)

yak sao said:


> No, I learned it faster than most.
> 
> I'm only half joking. There are many who have trained this lineage far longer than me who have never learned the knives. There are those of course who have learned it sooner as well, but not many.


I hate to say it, but this comes down to instructors deliberately holding back information, perhaps in an effort to maintain status or keep control of students.

With only 6 forms in the entire system, there is no reason why practitioners should have to wait decades to learn them all. Ip Man himself had significantly less than 22 years of formal instruction under others and many of his students who went on to become notable teachers in their own right also had less time under him.

This sort of thing annoys me. As a teacher, my goal is to have my students surpass me as quickly as possible. Holding back material runs directly counter to that objective and reeks of insecurity. If you are a really good teacher, you can continue to aid your students in understanding and getting better at material even after you've shared all the techniques/forms/whatever that you know. If not, it's time for them to move on and learn elsewhere.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I hate to say it, but this comes down to instructors deliberately holding back information, perhaps in an effort to maintain status or keep control of students.
> 
> With only 6 forms in the entire system, there is no reason why practitioners should have to wait decades to learn them all. Ip Man himself had significantly less than 22 years of formal instruction under others and many of his students who went on to become notable teachers in their own right also had less time under him.
> 
> This sort of thing annoys me. As a teacher, my goal is to have my students surpass me as quickly as possible. Holding back material runs directly counter to that objective and reeks of insecurity. If you are a really good teacher, you can continue to aid your students in understanding and getting better at material even after you've shared all the techniques/forms/whatever that you know. If not, it's time for them to move on and learn elsewhere.


Agreed. One of my frustrations as an instructor is that I haven't found a reasonable way to deliver the curriculum faster. If I could do it, I'd hand over all the techniques in 2 years, and then keep revisiting them, their principles and applications, and anything new we could come up with.


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## yak sao (Aug 30, 2017)

I disagree with nothing you said there Tony in fact I agree wholeheartedly with all of it.
Believe me I thought about moving on to something else several times over the years, but damn it I wanted to learn this lineage and I can be a stubborn SOB when I want to be... if you don't believe me just ask my wife
I place part of the blame for it taking so long with myself.  As you may or may not know I started training with my current teacher about 12 years ago. 5 years into that I had a major career change and my training time with him became few and far between there for a while.
But anyway water under the bridge, I've completed what I set out to accomplish and now there's going to be a major paradigm shift with how long it takes to learn this material.... at least in my little corner of the world.


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## wingerjim (Aug 30, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I hate to say it, but this comes down to instructors deliberately holding back information, perhaps in an effort to maintain status or keep control of students.
> 
> With only 6 forms in the entire system, there is no reason why practitioners should have to wait decades to learn them all. Ip Man himself had significantly less than 22 years of formal instruction under others and many of his students who went on to become notable teachers in their own right also had less time under him.
> 
> This sort of thing annoys me. As a teacher, my goal is to have my students surpass me as quickly as possible. Holding back material runs directly counter to that objective and reeks of insecurity. If you are a really good teacher, you can continue to aid your students in understanding and getting better at material even after you've shared all the techniques/forms/whatever that you know. If not, it's time for them to move on and learn elsewhere.


I agree, we teach our students when they are ready for it. SLT from day 1, CK when they are proficiant in SLT, BJ after they learn the dummy, pole after BJ and knives after they have shown resiliency in practice full proficiency of the other 5 forms. I learned in year 4-5 but also am one of only 3 student to learn this form even though there are others who have studied longer than I.


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## geezer (Aug 30, 2017)

In the WT system, it is possible to learn the forms faster if you have enough money. Take 50 or more private lessons a year at $50 each, fly to a few out-of state seminars each year and when finally accepted for the weapons training, you pay for the course and then may also be asked to pay an additional fee for each movement taught. All told, that can run into some serious change.

I respect the system, but the business model drove me away. Especially since I'm a guy of humble means. My current teacher had "Master" rank in the same system and was much more open with the material ...at first, anyway. Lately, I've seen a trend  back towards the old business model. I hope I'm mistaken.


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## yak sao (Aug 30, 2017)

geezer said:


> In the WT system, it is possible to learn the forms faster if you have enough money. Take 50 or more private lessons a year at $50 each, fly to a few out-of state seminars each year and when finally accepted for the weapons training, you pay for the course and then may also be asked to pay an additional fee for each movement taught. All told, that can run into some serious change.
> 
> I respect the system, but the business model drove me away. Especially since I'm a guy of humble means. My current teacher had "Master" rank in the same system and was much more open with the material ...at first, anyway. Lately, I've seen a trend  back towards the old business model. I hope I'm mistaken.



I see that a lot with the WT guys. They split off because they do not like how it's going with either LT or KK and so they form their own organization and end up doing the very same thing that they disliked about the other guys. I guess the difference is now they're on top and they're the ones getting all the money.

I really hate this modern trend of everybody and their brother forming an organization, and like you geezer , I've always disliked the business aspect of our lineage... It always felt very corporate.

Why can't we go back to the days when people were content to have a school and were satisfied to be called SiFu?


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## Phobius (Aug 30, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I see that a lot with the WT guys. They split off because they do not like how it's going with either LT or KK and so they form their own organization and end up doing the very same thing that they disliked about the other guys. I guess the difference is now they're on top and they're the ones getting all the money.
> 
> I really hate this modern trend of everybody and their brother forming an organization, and like you geezer , I've always disliked the business aspect of our lineage... It always felt very corporate.
> 
> Why can't we go back to the days when people were content to have a school and were satisfied to be called SiFu?



Not everything is doom and gloom. Some areas we do have WT with an open attitude.

This is what my sifu taught me, directly or indirectly I do not know or care. Basically we want all those we train with to become as good as they can possibly get. That is the only way we can become superb. So teach them all we know, so that we can learn more.

Of course there are those that prefer gold to knowledge but life is like that sometimes, especially when we have no competitions to saturate that thirst for gold.


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## Bino TWT (Sep 2, 2017)

Congrats! Out of curiosity Yak, are you under the IWTA or EWTO side of LTWT?

Did you receive 5th Practitioner as well?


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## geezer (Sep 2, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> Congrats! Out of curiosity Yak, are you under the IWTA or EWTO side of LTWT?
> 
> Did you receive 5th Practitioner as well?



_5th Level Practition?_ Them's the wide stripers. Never met one that couldn't kick my butt ....with one hand behind their back!


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## Bino TWT (Sep 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> _5th Level Practition?_ Them's the wide stripers. Never met one that couldn't kick my butt ....with one hand behind their back!



Yeah, actually, when you go from 4th Tech to 5th Practitioner (Master level), your stripes turn from red to yellow too. 

Usually Baat Cham Dao is the last thing in LTWT before you have completed the entire system and receive your yellow "Master" stripes.

They're supposed to give you a run for your money with one hand behind their back lol.


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## yak sao (Sep 2, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> Congrats! Out of curiosity Yak, are you under the IWTA or EWTO side of LTWT?
> 
> Did you receive 5th Practitioner as well?



I'm originally AWTO / EBMAS under Emin. Past 12 years have been with Alan Fong, who was IWTA until 1989.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> No idea what it is but as it's obviously something that has made you happy it's a good thing so congratulations!



It is the knife form, which is reserved for only the most advanced and talented students.


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> It is the knife form, which is reserved for only the most *advanced and talented students*.



...You left out _good looking!_


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## DanT (Sep 11, 2017)

Have you learned the BJD vs other weapons or just the form?


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## yak sao (Sep 11, 2017)

DanT said:


> Have you learned the BJD vs other weapons or just the form?



Yes, applications too.


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## hkreporting (Sep 14, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I began training LT WT in the summer of 1995. Today, 22 years later almost to the day,  I have completed training on the Baat Jaam Do!
> 
> Just had to tell somebody.


Firstly congratulations!  One comment about the knives I heard from my sifu here in Hong Kong is that the chances of actually using them are almost zero, so the real challenge is how to incorporate all the principles and moves in the knife form into your hand to hand combat. There is probably less in the hand movements that are applicable, but, if you can incorporate all the amazing footwork from the knife form into your chisau and fighting, that would take your WC to the next level for sure, such as leg swapping to gain distance and entry. All the best.


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## DanT (Sep 14, 2017)

hkreporting said:


> Firstly congratulations!  One comment about the knives I heard from my sifu here in Hong Kong is that the chances of actually using them are almost zero, so the real challenge is how to incorporate all the principles and moves in the knife form into your hand to hand combat. There is probably less in the hand movements that are applicable, but, if you can incorporate all the amazing footwork from the knife form into your chisau and fighting, that would take your WC to the next level for sure, such as leg swapping to gain distance and entry. All the best.


Another important aspect that the knives develop is "fighting spirit", especially when practicing with them at high intensity with a partner.


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## Bino TWT (Sep 17, 2017)

The motions from the knives do carry over into whatever you can get your hands on though. Think: Escrima.


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