# Theh "bodies" exhibit



## Flea (Mar 6, 2009)

Has anyone seen this?

http://www.bodieshuman.com/

_This unique exhibit is a display of over 100 authentic human specimens, including whole bodies, individual organs and transparent body slices preserved through a special process called plastination. It provides viewers with a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to look inside the human body, and to see and understand our own anatomy and physiology. This will provide a new appreciation and respect for the human body and what it means to be human. It's an inside look at the human body and is designed to show how the choices we make affect our overall health._

I've been dying (umm ...) to see this for _years_, and I may soon have the opportunity.  What a wondrous world we inhabit with technology like this!


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## Blindside (Mar 6, 2009)

It is an amazing exhibit, I was particularly fascinated by some of the examples of vascularization of the body.  I had a pretty decent anatomy background, but I really benefited when I went to it with my mom (a PT) and my dad (a MD).  While I found it to be a somber atmosphere it really wasn't macabre.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 6, 2009)

Heard and seen lots of photos of it (elsewhere on the web) about this exhibit and it's very controversial due to the fact that real cadavers are used instead of mock-ups. 
Far as I'm concerned it's still art and it's educational as well... which is the intent of the artist. Problem that folks have are the use of the actual human bodies where tradition says to put them to rest. 
Yet universities use them all the time to teach doctors and forensics students ... but they're never on permanent or public display. 
Some folks feel it robs the dead of their dignity being posed and displayed as they are. 
Definitely would take a strong stomach to see some of the more bolder exhibits the artist has.  I would have to give it a lot of thinking before deciding to see the exhibit first hand. Not that I'm squeamish... much... I still have err... difficulty seeing some of the "faces of death" type videos that are on the net these days, it's more of a mind-set to go see them and appreciate them for what they're trying to accomplish.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 7, 2009)

I wanna be plastinated when I die, and kept in the den.   I'm sure I'd make a great coatrack.

Would that be creepy?

Maybe.  But I found the exibit to be more facinating than weird, so...


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 7, 2009)

A good friend of mine who is a doctor saw it. When he heard about it he thought that it would be very interesting and educational. His response after he went was that it was horrible.

Pax,

Chris


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## shesulsa (Mar 7, 2009)

I saw it and had a few ... ah ... interesting moments.

To me, it was fascinating. the vascular systems, the neurological systems, organs displayed ... interesting mesh of science and art.

There was one moment where I very nearly brushed against the extended hand of one specimen which was beyond the observation boundary - curious.  Maybe it was because I was the only one looking at it at the time, but when I turned, saw the hand an inch from my face and followed it up to the face to find the eyes in line with mine ... well ... ahem.  I had the sudden urge to touch it as though it were requesting I do so.  It took a few moments for me to back away; the moment was rather absolving.

Not long after walking away from that specimen, I had a sudden urge to flee. I really don't know where it came from, it just came upon me.  

They are reactions I certainly didn't expect. Witnessing macabre stuff doesn't seem to bother me and I don't think I was *afraid* per se ... I think I just got wrapped up in the art of the project and fell subject to the flow of the exhibit; which would probably indicate it was well-assembled.

Parents took their VERY young children (toddlers, some) to see this exhibit and some people were freaking out, so ... if you think you can handle it ... find yourself closely examining real photographs of the exhibit and have no qualms, then by all means ... SEE IT.


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## elder999 (Mar 7, 2009)

I saw it in Denver, and really enjoyed it.

However, there is a bit of controversy: none of the bodies' former owners consented to having their bodies used in this fashion, or "donated" their bodies to science. The laboratory that processes them claims that corpses were unclaimed, and legally obtained form China. In February of last year, ABC's 20/20 did an investigation, interviewing a man who claimed to be a  "body collector" who delivered the cadavers to the lab, and saying that he delivered several executed Chinese prisoners......

.....of course, such things might not matter at all to some-they certainly don't to me.


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## Carol (Mar 7, 2009)

As soon as I saw two of the still images and saw that they were both young Chinese men, I felt very disturbed and suspicious.  

Apparently my suspicions were not unfounded.

NY Times - China Turns Out Mummified Bodies For Display


No, I will not be supporting China's new industry.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 7, 2009)

This exhibit came through Honolulu recently and I read about the controversy in the newspaper.  I talked to my science classes about it and we decided not to go because, ethically, if they couldn't produce any release forms, we had no idea who these people were.  For all we knew, China could be displaying political prisoners it had executed.

That said, I believe this exhibit is a copy cat of another one.  The other one used people who had donated their bodies for this purpose.  I went to see that one in Minneapolis and I thought it was wonderful.  I did not bring my kids as I thought they were too young.  

The thing is, most people just have this view that the human body is just a bag of blood with stuff floating in it.  Exhibits like this really do help people understand the complexity of the human organism in ways that books just cannot accomplish.  

Not everyone is going to have my experience of being able to dissect a cadaver and note its anatomy.  This represented a walk through dissection and it was awe inspiring, humbling, and educational.  People around me found new respect for physicians and surgeons.


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## shesulsa (Mar 7, 2009)

I should state that the exhibit I saw was Body Worlds by Gunther von Hagens at OMSI.  I recall the statement that they are able to provide release documents for the cadavers, though I have not investigated it.


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## Carol (Mar 7, 2009)

Gunther Von Hagens is behind at least one of the Chinese factories as well.  From the NYTimes article I posted:



> &#8220;Pull the cover off; pull it off,&#8221; one Chinese manager says as a team of workers begin to lift a blanket from the head of a cadaver stored in a stainless steel container filled with formalin, a chemical preservative. &#8220;Let&#8217;s see the face; show the face.&#8221;
> 
> The mastermind behind this operation is Gunther von Hagens, a 61-year-old German scientist whose show, &#8220;Body Worlds,&#8221; has attracted 20 million people worldwide ...





> But now with millions of people flocking to see &#8220;Body Worlds&#8221; and similar exhibitions, a ghastly new underground mini-industry has emerged in China.
> 
> With little government oversight, an abundance of cheap medical school labor and easy access to cadavers and organs &#8212; which appear to come mostly from China and Europe &#8212; at least 10 other Chinese body factories have opened in the last few years...





> Fierce competition among body show producers has led to accusations of copyright theft, unfair competition and trafficking in human bodies in a country with a reputation for allowing a flourishing underground trade in organs and other body parts.
> 
> 
> Here in China, determining who is in the body business and where the bodies come from is not easy. Museums that hold body exhibitions in China say they have suddenly &#8220;forgotten&#8221; who supplied their bodies, police officials have regularly changed their stories about what they have done with bodies, and even universities have confirmed and then denied the existence of body preservation operations on their campuses.





> Dr. von Hagens, who opened the first large-scale body preservation factory here in Dalian in 1999, said he abided by the regulations.
> 
> The fierce rivalry between Premier and Dr. von Hagens&#8217;s company, the Institute of Plastination, has moved to the courts, over everything from copyright claims to rights to the name &#8220;Body World.&#8221; They have each publicly hinted that their rival is engaging in unethical behavior in acquiring bodies in China.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 7, 2009)

"When money is involved, competition inevitably races to the ethical bottom."

Me.


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## shesulsa (Mar 7, 2009)

Hm. I do remember that a number of the subjects were asian. Now I feel dirty.


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## Flea (Mar 7, 2009)

Chilling!

Thanks for the heads-up on that.  I have a friend who works for a science museum and she told me that there were a couple of "Bodies" franchises.  One is Chinese, she said, the other is American.  Maybe I'll call the museum and ask them about it.  I'd really hate to miss this, but I wouldn't enjoy it if I had serious reason to doubt the ethics of this particular show.  If it turns out to be the Chinese one, I'll hold out for the other.


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## Phoenix44 (Mar 7, 2009)

I saw Bodies...The Exhibit in NYC.  Very interesting, but also difficult to watch after awhile.

I don't think that the display was disrespectful, as long as you treat it respectfully, and appreciate that these were human souls.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 7, 2009)

It is very much a matter of social mores, once the legal bone fides are established, as to whether this sort of thing is art, education or exploitation.

For myself, I would rather not see it.  I might not believe in God but I have a profound regard for the miracle of life and it's flipside, the need to maintain dignity and respect for the dead.  

That is just my reaction tho' and I think it stems from my having to identify a dead friend many years ago - I cannot shake the connection between the physical 'vehicle' we travel in and the 'person'.


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## jks9199 (Mar 7, 2009)

I have ethical and religious issues with the show.  It's one thing to donate your body to science, and have it used for any of a number of purposes, including educational dissection in medical schools or for research.  It's another to display processed bodies as art -- or for profit.  I'm not sure that this is respecting the dignity of the human body.

Add to that concerns about whether the bodies were legitimately obtained...

Not a show I'm going to see.  Fascinating idea, I'd love to see a digital/holographic approach... but I can't answer my concerns about these shows.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 7, 2009)

I have heard about the human body exhibit before but never got to see the exhibit at the museum. 

As a martial artist. That would have been interesting but the ethical and religious issues arising from a very controversial museum exhibit piece is completely understandable.

I suspect permission was obtained from the families of the donated cadavers because they would not have been allowed in a museum.

I think there are better ways to understand the human anatomy through books and multimedia.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 7, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I think there are better ways to understand the human anatomy through books and multimedia.



As a science teacher and a student who has actually taken part in a full human dissection, I can say that nothing really beats the real thing when it comes to really knowing anatomy.  These kinds of exhibits are a wonderful opportunity for the average person to see the reality of one's own insides.  My only concern are the ethics involved in the display of the bodies.  The persons or the families need to agree to this or it crosses a line for me.

One thing that I am wondering, for those of you who are against shows like this, how else do you think a normal person could go and see a real cadaver dissection if they would like to learn about it?  Is there any appropriate way to display a dead body so that normal people can study it?


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## Carol (Mar 7, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I suspect permission was obtained from the families of the donated cadavers because they would not have been allowed in a museum.



But that's precisely the point.  No one knows for sure.  Dr. Von Hagens even admits in this AP news story from Dailan that there can be transactions that take place beyond his control.  While the NY Times article mentioned that Dr. Von Hagens welcomed China's newer regulations for the trade of human bodies, there is very little to indicate how strictly this will be adhered to, and there is nothing to indicate that other nations (Russia, Eastern Europe, etc. are being ethical if/when they sell/provide one of these factories with human tissue, be it a body or organ.



> Last month, media reports from von Hagens' native Germany asserted that at least two of the corpses, both Chinese, had bullet holes in their skulls - the method China uses for execution. It's a charge that von Hagens rejects vehemently, saying all his specimens were donated by people who signed releases.
> 
> "I absolutely prohibit and do not accept death penalty bodies," von Hagens, a tall, thin man in a fedora, said this week during a rare tour of his Dalian facility.
> 
> But, he added, "Many things can happen. . . . I cannot exclude that (possibility)."


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> As a science teacher and a student who has actually taken part in a full human dissection, I can say that nothing really beats the real thing when it comes to really knowing anatomy.  These kinds of exhibits are a wonderful opportunity for the average person to see the reality of one's own insides.  My only concern are the ethics involved in the display of the bodies.  The persons or the families need to agree to this or it crosses a line for me.
> 
> One thing that I am wondering, for those of you who are against shows like this, how else do you think a normal person could go and see a real cadaver dissection if they would like to learn about it?  Is there any appropriate way to display a dead body so that normal people can study it?


For those who need it -- there is no substitute.  But a display of plasticized bodies is not a dissection; it's something between art and education and science (and maybe a little macabre-ness).


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> As a science teacher and a student who has actually taken part in a full human dissection, I can say that nothing really beats the real thing when it comes to really knowing anatomy.


 
I agree, nothing beats the real thing. Dissection of the human body is not for everybody. 

The human body exhibit that Dr. Von Hagens has is probably the next best thing to a full human dissection.

I also have some concerns with people who are mentally unstable and they see the real human exhibit in a museum. They start to get ideas and go from there. 

Normal people may be fascinated or think it is disgusting then go home and talk about Dr. Von Hagens museum of real human exhibit pieces done for the benefit of science and mankind.


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I agree, nothing beats the real thing. Dissection of the human body is not for everybody.
> 
> The human body exhibit that Dr. Von Hagens has is probably the next best thing to a full human dissection.
> 
> ...



You must be either really young, really inexperienced in the world or VERY isolated.

People who are mentally unstable would get ideas from the meat counter at the supermarket.

Though I do think there should be a minimum age requirement for the exhibit - and the sources of donation investigated and regulated.


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> People who are mentally unstable would get ideas from the meat counter at the supermarket..


 
Or from TV, or from the newspapers, or from people they come in contact with every day...........

....or from their dog, *Sam*, or the other voices in their head.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

I am just saying it is not a good idea for people who are mentally unstable to view the exhibit because police officers would be very busy racing to stop a killer, solve the puzzle and save lives. 

Of course, they can get ideas from many sources. I think Son of Sam got his ideas from a dog. 

Many serial killers in their jail house interview mention different ways they got their ideas from before going on a crime spree. 

On the History Channel. I think Charles Manson said he got his ideas from the devil and sensual ladies. The world of serial killer's minds aren't normal. It never is.

Anyways, back on topic. It is good to have some kind of medical exhibit that can positively benefit science and mankind.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> You must be either really young, really inexperienced in the world or VERY isolated.


 
It has nothing to do with that. I have met plenty of people that are really crazy on the streets. That is one of the reasons why I don't hang out with them.


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Excuse me, doube post.


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2009)

Back on topic ...

Maunakuma have you ever seen a virtual autopsy? OMSI also had one of those available for viewing during a CSI exhibit.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 8, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> Back on topic ...
> 
> Maunakuma have you ever seen a virtual autopsy? OMSI also had one of those available for viewing during a CSI exhibit.



Yeah, LOL, I actually have a funny story about that.  One year, while filling out my wish list for science supplies I slipped in an order for a cadaver for the hell of it.  The secretary calls me frantically and tells me under no circumstances will there be a dead body in the school.  It would creep her out to no end because she usually stays late.

I ended up getting some software for a virtual autopsy and taking field trips to the University of Minnesota's cadaver lab.  Anyway, the software is good to get the basics, but the thing about the software that you don't get is that sometimes where things should be, they aren't in real life.  For example, the software approximates where certain tissues are and gives you an average.  In real life, things are not always where they should be.  It's why "nerve" strikes don't always work on certain people.  The place where the "nerve" should be isn't where it actually is.


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I am just saying it is not a good idea for people who are mentally unstable to view the exhibit because police officers would be very busy racing to stop a killer, solve the puzzle and save lives.
> 
> Of course, they can get ideas from many sources. I think Son of Sam got his ideas from a dog.
> 
> ...


Sorry, it's not that easy.  Except in your very special, very simple world.  

I'm not even confident you could build a correlation between exhibits like this and criminal activity -- let alone any sort of causal link.

And Charlie Manson?  Don't believe a word he says.  He's a very unique case of intelligent psychopathology and charisma.  He'll say anything that suits his needs for the moment.


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> And Charlie Manson? Don't believe a word he says. He's a very unique case of intelligent psychopathology and charisma. He'll say anything that suits his needs for the moment.


 
For example: _*Charles Manson never killed anyone, that we know of, including those murders he was convicted for*...._


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## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Sorry, it's not that easy. Except in your very special, very simple world.
> 
> I have lived in the big city before as well the rural areas. I live in the real world. I just happen to have conservative and very strong opinions and I am very passionate about what I believe in.
> 
> ...


 
If you think I hold any fascination with Manson. I don't and in fact, I find him very disgusting and despicable. 

If you have seen the interview with the prosecutor Vincent Bugliosi on the History Channel. 

I was cheering and saying yes because I agreed with the district attorney, Mr. Bugliosi. 

I have been a victim of violent crime before so I understood exactly what Mr. Bugliosi was saying.

Mr. Bugliosi argued the case very brilliantly that Manson was not present for the murder incident but he put the girls up to murder which means he is still a murderer. The girls could have said no even if they feared for their lives but the girls chose to commit murder offenses which was unfortunate.

What ultimately did Manson in was that he had his hand written in blood. There was one fingerprint and it was Charlie Manson's fingerprint. I am happy he is locked up for life. There were witnesses, the girls who committed the murders on orders from Charlie. I think that is four or five girls who participated in the murders of innocent people who did nothing more than getting ready for bed and turn the lights off.

I am just disappointed he was not sentenced to death. I think the girls were sentenced to death and not him. 

I think California overturned the death penalty thanks to the liberals. 

If someone was deserving of the death penalty. It would be Manson. The girls should have been sentenced to life.

I would have to watch the History Channel again. Mr. Bugliosi was a very excellent district attorney. I liked how Mr. Bugliosi thinks.

Can you imagine in today's liberal politically correct world that pinning a murder on the mastermind is unheard of because you can't prove he did it, even though you know he did it. The politically correct " thought police " would not allow it, even if it was the right thing to do.


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Can you imagine in today's liberal politically correct world that pinning a murder on the mastermind is unheard of because you can't prove he did it, even though you know he did it. The politically correct " thought police " would not allow it, even if it was the right thing to do.



Actually, it's very common.  You might consider looking into how federal prosecutors are using VICAR, RICO, and conspiracy laws to target gang members.


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## elder999 (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I am just disappointed he was not sentenced to death. I think the girls were sentenced to death and not him.
> 
> I think California overturned the death penalty thanks to the liberals.
> 
> ...


 
They all got sentenced to death. California overturned the death penalty, and their sentences were commuted to life.......

....maybe when they do die, we can sell their bodies for plasticizing to the _Chinese_....:lfao:


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2009)

For someone who wanted to get back on topic, you sure like to sway it, doncha, fella?


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## Flea (Mar 9, 2009)

Wooooowww.

Usually when it comes to these "crazies are _dangerous_" conversations I'm the one who sticks myself out there to set people straight.  As someone with bipolar it lends me a lot of credibility so I'm glad to do it.  But here?  People keep beating me to it!

:whip1:

Between the "aiding in psychosis" thread and this one, it does my heart good.  There are a few things I could add here, but it's really all been said and I thank you all.

Instead, I'll take advantage of some of the references people have cited and make make a more educated decision about whether to go to this.  As I said before, now that I know about the controversy I'd _have _to do my homework on this, because if there were any question in my mind I wouldn't enjoy it anyway.  Again, for calling my attention to these questions ... I thank you all.


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## Kacey (Mar 9, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I should state that the exhibit I saw was Body Worlds by Gunther von Hagens at OMSI.  I recall the statement that they are able to provide release documents for the cadavers, though I have not investigated it.



This is the one I saw as well - the Denver Museum of History and Science stated clearly and repeatedly that the cadavers were donated either by the family or by the person prior to death.  I took the Museum's word for it, and found the display fascinating - but I do have concerns about how the bodies were procured if, indeed, the accusations are true.


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## Flea (May 12, 2009)

I finally made it to the show today!

I kind of wish I hadn't.  I love studying the human form so I had some wierd kind of rock-star expectation about getting in to something I'd wanted to see for a long time.  And it really _was_ fascinating to see everything laid out.  

It was also incredibly macabre.  I didn't expect to have that reaction.  It hit me with the "child's spinal column" laid out flat like a centipede.  Right next to it was another spine still encased in vertebrae, skull attached.  It was propped up on a clear plastic thingie a bit carelessly.  There was also the vertical cross-section of a man in what looked like inch-think slices.  And the similar cross section of someone's head from back to front.  The final section was the face, but with the tip of the nose and the lips gone, leaving a grimace.  It didn't help that the venue is still under construction and had that "creepy abandoned warehouse" feel.  Abandoned no, but still an old warehouse just finding its new legs.  There was a lot of construction equipment hidden behind a hanging tarp.

Of course the best part was the full figures.  I found the blurbs written up for them to be a little glib, but there was a road map so the untrained eye could identify all the organs.  Call me perverse, but my favorite part was the fetuses.  There was something very lovely and poetic about that; I can't articulate what.

When I got home I threw all my meat into the freezer until further notice.  I was going to have a pork chop for lunch, but it just looked too ... familiar.  I'll go veggie for a few days.  Instead of the pork chop I had fried rice with mushrooms, spinach, peas, bell peppers, onions, parsley, savory, and chopped almonds.  Never let it be said that Flea doesn't know her way around the kitchen!


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2009)

We've had the live autopsies on the television, these were of donated bodies with permission given by either themselves before death or relatives. I found it quite fascinating, I even ate while watching them though to be fair I can eat through most things. There were some complaints about showing it live though.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2003/jan/27/broadcasting.channel41


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## Flea (May 13, 2009)

It wasn't until going back over my post that I realized the pun on this:



> an old warehouse just finding its new legs



:uhyeah:


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2009)

Flea said:


> It wasn't until going back over my post that I realized the pun on this:
> 
> 
> 
> :uhyeah:


 
Lol! the body of your post was fine though!


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