# Korean karate?



## Stuey (Nov 22, 2009)

What style of karate would korean karate be? There doesnt really seem to be so much of a this or that style thing going about with this school. So far the emphasis seems to be on sport karate. It feels like an effective way to handle myself so I am not too worried about whatever opinions there may be about it.


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## jks9199 (Nov 22, 2009)

Probably Tae Kwon Do or Tang So Do.  At least here in the USA, lots of TKD schools are labeled "Karate" or "Korean Karate" because people wouldn't been able to recognize the Korean names.

Might even be a generic mish-mash of stuff...


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## MBuzzy (Nov 22, 2009)

I believe that this is a more complex question than you may think.  First off, you have to examine the use of the term "Korean Karate."  When the Koreans came to the US in the 50's and 60's to start teaching "Karate," they used the term Karate as a generic way of describing what they taught.  You see, prior to that, Korea was under the control of Japan and during that time, Japanese martial arts had started to make their way into the US by way of the Military, of course they had just recently started, but had a head start on the Koreans.  So Americans were more familiar with the term "Karate" than they were the terms "Tae Kwon Do" or "Tang Soo Do" or "Hapkido" etc.  

So, basically when a school was labeled "Korean Karate" it could have been any one of a myriad Korean martial arts styles (most of which were heavily influenced by the Japanese anyway).  

So then the question becomes, are you looking for what Japanese style equates to which Korean style?  Or are you looking for what type of Korean Martial arts is generally referred to as "Korean Karate?"


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## MBuzzy (Nov 22, 2009)

Oh - as a more direct answer for your question........

Tang Soo Do is most heavily influenced by Shotokan
Tae Kwon Do has a lot of influences, tough to pin down
Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido


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## Omar B (Nov 22, 2009)

Remember in the movie Billy Jack in the opening credits they refereed to Hapkido karate.


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## Stuey (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks for the further confusion guys. lol. Yeah, I think its similar to TKD, although arent some of the moves close anyways? It seems to be what I consider to be karate. Not very strong emphasis on grappling. Not leavin the head open, which is what all TKD seems to be to me, to do fancy kicking. There are some pretty kicks etc, although these seem to be pushed in a focus and ability sort of way rather than 'wouldnt it look cool if you could kick someone like that?'I have only attended since August. Plus I have ahad a week off, (and whatever of this week), with Flu! Ggrrr! I guess the only thing to do is to ask.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2009)

I think it's different in the UK where karate is definitely Japanese. TKD was introduced as such in the 1960s by one man so there has always been a recognisable difference in them. TKD is well known here as a Korean martial art, probably due to good marketing, but it is seen as distinct from other martial arts especially karate. 
I do TSD which is very close to karate, though to my mind, simplified.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 23, 2009)

Stuey said:


> Thanks for the further confusion guys. lol. Yeah, I think its similar to TKD, although arent some of the moves close anyways? It seems to be what I consider to be karate. Not very strong emphasis on grappling. Not leavin the head open, which is what all TKD seems to be to me, to do fancy kicking. There are some pretty kicks etc, although these seem to be pushed in a focus and ability sort of way rather than 'wouldnt it look cool if you could kick someone like that?'I have only attended since August. Plus I have ahad a week off, (and whatever of this week), with Flu! Ggrrr! I guess the only thing to do is to ask.


 
So this is a style that you have been practising and are trying to determine what its roots are?

If it is called Korean Karate, you may be better off looking in the Korean areas, as it will have much more in common with other Korean styles than with Japanese styles. Remember that Karate is a Japanese word and a Japanese style. The word Korean Karate is really an oxymoron....Karate is Japanese, not Korean. Many Americans like to think that Karate is just a generic term that can be applied to any martial art, but that is not true. Karate is a specific Japanese style.

So then the question becomes - do you want to know what your style's Korean roots are or its Japanese roots?  MOST Korean styles were originally influenced by some Japanese martial art.  But I may be complicating things.  Your best bet is to first determine what Korean art you are practicing, then work on the history and influences.


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## Tez3 (Nov 23, 2009)

Stuey, can you give us links to your style or club so we can have a bit of further information? I've never heard of a Korean karate style here so would be interested in knowing what it is.


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## DMcHenry (Nov 23, 2009)

Prior to TKD getting it's name in the '50s & early '60s, Korean (kick/punch) martial arts were known TangSooDo or KongSooDo, which are both direct Korean translations of the Japanese word "KaraTe-Do".  In Japanese, the two words for China(Tang) hand and Empty Hand are homonyms (Kara Te).  

Later in the '60s when the striking arts organized, they changed the name to TaeSooDo and then finally TaeKwonDo.  Most TKD then eveolved into the sport oriened version we see today, dropping all the old form sets and creating new form sets that were different than the Japanese.  Some TKD still may use the old Japanse forms, and TSD never changed (well the SooBahkDo guys added new form sets).

So saying "Korean Karate" to me is just the older tem for TSD/TKD/KSD.  My first TKD dojang also had a huge sign that said "Korean Karate", and I saw very little difference between my TKD school and some other Japanese styles with the exception my TKD dojang also taught an additional form set (Palgwes) along side the Japanese forms (Pyung-ahn in Korean).


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## Dave Leverich (Nov 23, 2009)

We called ours Korean Karate in the 80's, it was the easiest way to get the point across to the public I think. My lineage was MDK, so a strong tie to Shotokan (although the TKD side of the split).


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## FieldDiscipline (Nov 23, 2009)




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## Stuey (Nov 25, 2009)

http://www.phoenixkarateschool.co.uk
Formed in 2007 after a disagreement with former friends/instructors. Like I say, I dont think this is TKD. It is most likely japanese karate, but with Korean terms, (note the lower ranks are still kyu not gup), and less japanese kata. I would say that the syllabus sticks to karate. What do I know though, right?
Also, the club has links to these assossiations/federations:
http://www.amauk.co.uk/
http://www.englishkaratefederation.com/


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## dbell (Nov 25, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> Oh - as a more direct answer for your question........
> 
> Tang Soo Do is most heavily influenced by Shotokan
> Tae Kwon Do has a lot of influences, tough to pin down
> Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido



Ummm..  According to my study in history, both living in the US and in Korea, Tae Kwon Do is a renaming of Tang Soo Do Kwons and other schools that were merged together to form one universal, more "Korean" system?


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 25, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Remember in the movie Billy Jack in the opening credits they refereed to Hapkido karate.



Yes, I remember looking at the description on the back of an old video copy at Blockbuster years ago. Something like, 'a karate fight scene in the rare hapkido style.'


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## dortiz (Nov 25, 2009)

"Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido"

How can you post this without any basis. 

FYI Both arts were born about the same time. Both of the founders were influenced by the same teacher and went in two differnt directions. They are more like ugly cousins. Neither was influenced by each other except for some branches of hapkido that later joined with Aikido and blended. But that is a very specific group and happened way after each was born and thriving.

Dave O.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 25, 2009)

Dave Leverich said:


> We called ours Korean Karate in the 80's, it was the easiest way* to get the point across to the public *I think. My lineage was MDK, so a strong tie to Shotokan (although the TKD side of the split).



Jong Soo Park used to have a chain of TKD schools in the Toronto area -- I believe he operates out of two locations now.

http://www.jongpark.com/jongsoopark_biography.html

He had ads on television in the early seventies (as did many school operators in that era during the Bruce Lee craze), in which TKD was described as "Korean Karate." I read an interview he gave in the nineties, in which he explained that he was doing exactly that -- promoting Korean arts to people who were likely only familiar with words like, _karate_, _judo_, etc.

As someone indicated above, you certainly could call TSD, "Korean Karate," because of its origins and similarities.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 25, 2009)

dbell said:


> Ummm.. According to my study in history, both living in the US and in Korea, Tae Kwon Do is a renaming of Tang Soo Do Kwons and other schools that were merged together to form one universal, more "Korean" system?


 
True, following the Japanese occupation, the Korean government attempted to merge the 9 kwans.  2 of them refused, the Moo Duk Kwan and Jido Kwan (I believe).  The merged kwans were then renamed Tae Kwon Do in an attempt to give Korean martials a more unified identity and provide Korea with a national martial art. So yes, they were merged to form a more "Korean system" and try to eliminate the Japanese influence.

When you start talking about influences, things get much more complex.  This is why I was trying to clarify the question.  I lived in Korea for a year and trained with several Koreans and depending on the age of the practitioner, you will get much different stories.  There are many older Koreans who still hate the Japanese for the attrocities committed during occupation and therefore deny ANY Japanese influence on Korean martial arts.  Younger Koreans are starting to embrace the true history.  If you did live and train there, then you know about Korean culture and how history works - i.e. much Korean "history" is influenced by the socially acceptable answer.  Perfect example, Soo Bahk Do STRONGLY denies any Japanese influence and yet uses both the Taekyoku and Pinan kata as the basis of their art.  There is a very clear Japanese influence in many Korean styles.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 25, 2009)

dortiz said:


> "Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido"
> 
> How can you post this without any basis.
> 
> ...


 
While it would be better say "mostly closely resembles" as opposed to influenced. It is difficult to deny Japanese influence in Korean martial arts. Even from a common sense perspective, the Japanese occupied the country for almost 40 years, during which time, much of the history and culture was destroyed.

As to the comment: "How can you post this without any basis," I think that it is largely a matter of interpretation and history.

Hapkido was developed by Choi, Yong Sul, who lived in Japan as a boy and studied Dait&#333;-ry&#363; Aiki-j&#363;jutsu. This style was the early forerunner of Aikido. When Choi returned to Korea, he combined the techniques learned in Japan with the striking becoming popular in Korea (Tae Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, the 9 kwans, etc) to form Hapkido. 

The problem with much of the Korean history is that the older Koreans (as posted previously) have a great contempt for the Japanese and try very hard to eliminate any reference to Japanese. I met several older Koreans who were VERY hateful toward the japanese still and a conversation on Japanese influences in Korean Martial arts was immediately dismissed. But if you look at the actual histories, it is difficult to deny.

While it is true that OSensei and Choi studied together and developed their own styles - both were of Japanese descent.  It really isn't much of a stretch to say that Hapkido was influenced by Aikido when Hapkido's roots are Japanese.  It probably could be qualified and worded better - they were both influenced by Dait&#333;-ry&#363; Aiki-j&#363;jutsu.  OSensei took the style and made some changes to come to his Aikido and Choi took the style and went a different path.

So, I fail to understand what you mean when you say that I posted something without basis. I feel that the wording may be wrong, but I believe that there is basis in saying that Hapkido has Japanese roots.

The original post is unclear as to whether he is tryign to determine what Japanese styles relate to Korean styles, what Korean styles have Japanese roots, or simply what is Korean Karate?  So making a 1:1 comparison is most certainly oversimplifying things.


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## dortiz (Nov 25, 2009)

"*Hapkido has Japanese roots*."
Very different to many than ""Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido" 
""mostly closely resembles" Yes, seems like a small difference but its a huge difference in conveying the message. 

Saying Hapkido comes from the same Japanese lineage is very different than saying from its sibling. 

Sounds like to you just a different way of putting things, some may say misleading. I appreciate that you do know the trees and just ask that they are presented as such. 

Thanks,
Dave O.


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## howard (Nov 26, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> Hapkido was developed by Choi, Yong Sul, who lived in Japan as a boy and studied Dait&#333;-ry&#363; Aiki-j&#363;jutsu... Choi... combined the techniques learned in Japan with the striking becoming popular in Korea (Tae Soo Do, Kong Soo Do, the 9 kwans, etc) to form Hapkido.



Your comment about the striking techniques that Choi taught is incorrect. Choi never studied any Korean or Japanese art after returning to Korea. The striking techniques he taught are ones that he learned in Japan. Most of Choi's original striking techniques bear little to no resemblance to the striking techniques of the karate-based arts.



MBuzzy said:


> It really isn't much of a stretch to say that Hapkido was influenced by Aikido when Hapkido's roots are Japanese.



It certainly is a stretch. It's also a non sequitur. There is no logic to this reasoning.

Following that logic, you might just as well say that hapkido was heavily influenced by sumo, because they both have Japanese roots. 



MBuzzy said:


> So, I fail to understand what you mean when you say that I posted something without basis.



Because you did.

You said that hapkido is heavily influenced by aikido. Choi's original art, which you can call hapkido, yawara or a couple of other names (he eventually came to call it hapkido), had absolutely no influence from aikido. Choi taught faithfully the art that he learned in Japan, without outside influence and without the addition of techniques from other sources, despite what some say. For example, some maintain that the defenses against clothing grabs and the throws that Choi taught came from judo, and were added by Suh Bok Sub. This is incorrect. Those techniques are present in Daito-ryu, which has defenses against all manner of clothing grabs and an extensive throwing repertoire.

The additions to Choi's art that characterize modern hapkido came from other sources, most notably Kim Moo Wong and Ji Han Jae. But certainly not from aikido.

I'm sorry if this sounds brusque, but I think it's important to refute internet misinformation about hapkido. There's way too much of it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 30, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> Oh - as a more direct answer for your question........
> 
> Tang Soo Do is most heavily influenced by Shotokan


That has been my observation as well.



MBuzzy said:


> Tae Kwon Do has a lot of influences, tough to pin down


Not as tough as you might think. Taekwondo is essentially a Shotokan based art, but unlike TSD, has moved away from Shotokan. Kukki Taekwondo has moved substantially away, particularly in the area of sport taekwondo. The sparring rules are designed to make it taekyeon-ish and to differentiate it from sport karate. 

Both Chang hon and Kukki taekwondo have developed their own forms, but you can still see the influence of Heian kata in some of them. 

Both federations have also changed the uniforms in substantive ways, but
the entire belt and rank system was transmitted to taekwondo via Shotokan.

It is not unreasonable to think of taekwondo as a Korean form of karate, but it is no longer Korean Shotokan.



MBuzzy said:


> Hapkido is most heavily influenced by Aikido


No; I must disagree with you.

Aikido and hapkido both claim a common root (Daito Ryu), though Ueshiba's claim is documeted and verifiable while Choi's is difficult to trace due to lack of documentary evidence.

The two share a goodly number of common techniques, but hapkido has a much greater emphasis on strikes and a more developed striking curriculum than Aikido from what I have seen. 

Dortiz put it well when he said cousins, though ugly is not the word I would use. Personally, I think of them as step siblings with a common father, different mothers, and different outlooks and aproaches to the same goal.

Daniel


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 30, 2009)

Here's how I look at it...

Takeda taught his Daito Ryu Aiki Jitsu to Usheiba, Kano and (perhaps) Choi. His relationship with the latter is not backed by any existing documentation, but I think people who have seen Hapkido as it was taught by Choi (there are video clips of Choi out there) tend to agree that he learned it somewhere. 

Usheiba took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Aikido. Kano took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Judo. Choi took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Hapkido, which, in the early days, used the same Kanji as Aikido.

To me it is simply of a matter of a great art, taught by a great teacher to great students who each made something special from it.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 30, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Aikido and hapkido both claim a common root (Daito Ryu), though Ueshiba's claim is documeted and verifiable while Choi's is difficult to trace due to lack of documentary evidence.



Stanely Pranin (http://www.aikidojournal.com/encyclopedia?entryID=547) was granted unprecedented access to the Takeda family archives and could find no record of Choi as a student under the name of Choi or the Japanese name he was given when he was relocated to Japan in the early 1900s. To this I would add that much of what Choi claimed occurred during this period has been attributed to him posthumously. I don't know that we even have a clear understanding of what Choi said of his own lineage as so much has been passed on second- and third-hand.

My understanding of Japanese society at the time suggests that it would have been unlikely for Takeda to have taken him on as a student (as some claim), or as ushi deschi, or as adopted son and inheritor of the system -- I've heard all these claims, and they simply are not supported independently. Scott Shaw has speculated that Choi might have been taken on as a servant or houseboy to the Takeda family, which might have made it ok to train with O Sensei.

As I've written above, Choi learned DRAJ somewhere -- we just can't say for sure where.



> The two share a goodly number of common techniques, but hapkido has a much greater emphasis on strikes and a more developed striking curriculum than Aikido from what I have seen.



I've often wondered about that. I have a few thoughts... During the time of Japanese occupation, Koreans were allowed to train in Japanese arts, notably Judo and Karate. Choi was something like forty when he returned to Korea. I started Hapkido in my mid thirties and graded for my bb in my mid forties, so I have a passing familiarity with the limitations of the forty year old body. I have trouble picturing Choi suddenly learning and mastering all this kicking and striking.

I suspect a lot of it was brought to him by his students, some of whom, like Ji Han Jae, had some training in Korean arts. My memory is fuzzy on this score, but I believe Ji Han Jae had learned some Korean kicking. There's a lot of defenses from grabs in HKD, which is to be expected of an art that sprang from DRAJ. My teacher has wondered allowed, if that has to do with Choi teaching Koreans who had trained in Judo. Many accounts list Su Bok Sub (sp?), purportedly the owner of a brewery and a second dan in Judo, as Choi's first student. So the Judo guy grabs the Hapkido guy and the Hapkido guy responds.

All speculation, but I do wonder if part of what makes Hapkido is not just DRAJ origins but also the climate in which it was introduced and from whence it sprang.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 1, 2009)

From what I have read, Ji Han Jae developed the art into what we would recognize as hapkido, integrating the strikes. It had been commented somewher that Choi simply practiced DRAJ until the end of his life.

I do agree that the environment in which hapkido developed definitely played a part in the shaping of the art.

Daniel


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## TimoS (Dec 2, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


> Kano took DRAJ and came up with his expression of the art -- Judo


Getting way off-topic here, but can't be helped. This is the first time I've ever seen the claim, that judo came from Daito ryu. Do you happen to have any references for this claim? I was under the impression that Kano's base art was Tenjin Shinyo ryu.


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## Jimi (Dec 2, 2009)

I can understand if someone believes Mcbuzzys statement that Hapkido is ,for lack of a better term, (BORN) of Aikido is incorrect. Aikido may very well have little to do with Hapkido in a lineage sence.

With so many Korean Arts nowwa days insisting that their art is Korean alone, I see this can be a sensitive issue. From what i can gleam from others posting that Choi may have trained in Daito Ryi Aiki Jutsu and this may be more likely where Choi drew his foundation for Hapkido to be born, my question is, "If DRAJ was used as source for Hapkidos foundation, would'nt it be that a Japanese System helped form Hapkido in principles and techniques?" Chois (A Korean) interpretation of a japanese system, but does that make Hapkido a KOREAN ART BY BIRTH?

Exxegarated example, if an Italian trains in Spainish Fencing in Spain using Toledo Steel and Spaninsh Fencing principle, then returns to Italy founding his own art based (Even in part) on Spanish Fencing, because the founder is Italian, does that make it Italian Fencing? No offense intended to Italians, Spanish , Koreans or Japanese mind you, just trying to understand what others may perceive.

If Daito Ryu Aiki Jutsu is in part FATHER to Hapkido, is Hapkido founded on japanese system principles? Again with many Koreans wanting to identify their systems as Korean alone, would it be unfair to say Hapkido is born of Japanese systems interpreted by a Korean? Would this be a Korean art by relatively recent development? 

I certainly would not consider it an Ancient Korean System simply because a Korean formulated it from his experience elsewhere. I would love to see the defensive arts of Korean History as they were before the Korean War and before the Japanese Occupation, these I would trust more than just someones opinion or conjecture .

This may be stirring a hornets nest, but I can understand (NOT ASSERTING) peoples belief that Hapkido is born of Japanese arts influence. This may upset many, but I just had to express my questions of Hapkidos origin and how it was developed.

Can anyone here show me the Korean Arts as they were before Japnese occupational influence? THIS IS NOT A CHALLENGE TO ANYONES SA BOM NIM OR GRANDMASTER OR ASSOCIATIONSS HISTORY SO PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT AS SUCH, I simply would like to know what can be attributed directly to Korean Culture as Native Art Developement as opposed to Arts Developed by Koreans under Japanese Arts influence. 

I hope my questions intent are understood. PEACE JIMI


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## dortiz (Dec 2, 2009)

I think just about every Hapkido practioner I know of is quite familiar with the fact tha Choi brought it back from Japan.
The muddier waters is the continuation as the Koreans added the kicking and other techniques.Either way its no secret and not frowned about.
Everything comes from somehwere, its what you do with it that matters.

Dave O.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 2, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Getting way off-topic here, but can't be helped. This is the first time I've ever seen the claim, that judo came from Daito ryu. Do you happen to have any references for this claim? I was under the impression that Kano's base art was Tenjin Shinyo ryu.



No, sir, you're quite right. I had a senior's moment when I was typing. Kano was a JuJitsuka. JuJitsu, no doubt, played a role in the development of Judo, but I incorrectly attributed that to Takeda.

I recall a Judoka and JuJitsuka telling me that Judo was Kano's expression of Budo, and I think that's where I got tripped up.

Thanks for catching that and not having fun at my expense.


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## xfighter88 (Dec 20, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That has been my observation as well.
> 
> 
> Not as tough as you might think. Taekwondo is essentially a Shotokan based art, but unlike TSD, has moved away from Shotokan. Kukki Taekwondo has moved substantially away, particularly in the area of sport taekwondo. The sparring rules are designed to make it taekyeon-ish and to differentiate it from sport karate.
> ...


 
From what I have read and experienced hapkido's philosophy is a lot more about...hurting the other guy and injuring him to where he does not want to or can't fight. This is why it incorporates lots of striking as well as joint manipulation. The guy who "founded" Aikido had a much more subdued approach. His goal was to defeat his oponent while causing the least injury possible. They tend to use slaps and distractions to set up takeowns rather than kicking and punching a guys head off to set up the locks. 

Don't get me wrong they both could work extremely violently or pacifistically. The difference is in the philosophy of their founders and what kind of mindset gets passed down to the students.

Just my 2 cents. I am not calling aikido folks wimps or tree huggers and I am not saying that all hapkido practitioners are blood thirsty killers. Lastly I am no expert in either of these martial arts I have just read some, I repeat, SOME history of them and know people who practice them.


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 20, 2009)

When our Kwan Jang Nim came to the U.S. back in the late 1960's his signage out front said "Korean Karate."  That sign actually stayed that way through the 1980's.  He teaches Moo Duk Kwan (strongly rooted in Japanese Karate), but he says we practice Moo Duk Kwan Tae Kwon Do.  So obviously he was on the split side of the Moo Duk Kwan.  We practice all the traditional Japanese forms, although there is a strong emphasis on kicking (especially head kicks).  Although unlike many TKD schools, our emphasis is on what Kwan Jang Nim refers to as "Il Kyuk" or One Strike to take out an opponent.  This principle, I think, is more of a japanese principle as well (thus deep stances, emphasis on proper technique, waist snap, etc.. .)


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## xfighter88 (Dec 20, 2009)

In the US when martial arts places put Karate in their name They are doing it to catch people's attention (excluding actual Karate schools). Most everyone has heard of Karate. Taekwondo is starting to be almost as recognized but I would say that Karate still is king when it comes to name recognition.

I got started at a place that had Karate in the name. The head instructor there has an 8th degree BB in TKD and 2nd degree BB in Judo and Jiu-Jitsu. So Zero karate training but it is in the dojo name. I understand the marketing thought behind it but I am not a huge fan of it.


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