# How fast is too fast?



## kachi (Nov 13, 2006)

In general, our system goes up through from white to blue to green to brown belt in 6 months each so that's only 1 and a half years to get your brown belt, then it's 1 year on brown to get your shodan-ho, 6 months to get black then anywhere from 3 - 9 years (or more) to progress through the Dan ranks. We are not a completely traditional style in the sense that we incorperate some elements from other styles but our basis is Goju Ryu. I was just wondering if people think that's too fast and what the waitng time is for other styles?


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## bignick (Nov 13, 2006)

So...if I followed you right, 3 years to get your black belt?  Seems reasonable enough.  Slower than some, faster than others, the average is usually quoted from 3-5 years.


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## exile (Nov 13, 2006)

bignick said:


> So...if I followed you right, 3 years to get your black belt?  Seems reasonable enough.  Slower than some, faster than others, the average is usually quoted from 3-5 years.



I'm with bignick on this---three years sounds to me like the faster end of what is still a `normal' time frame. One question---the expected times to belt you mention presuppose _how_ many hours a week of training? That could make a difference.


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## kachi (Nov 13, 2006)

Yeah um, that's another thing i'm worried about... The majority of students only train about 1 and a half to 2 hours a week (with the option of about 7 hours). I only train about 3 - 3 and a half hours a week.


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## Carol (Nov 13, 2006)

It really depends on the school, the instructor, and the student.

Some students have more talent than others, some practice more than others, some take private lessons where others don't.  

If sensei is promoting based more on attendance than performance then that may be an issue.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 13, 2006)

I agree with bignick, but I have a question.

Does everyone in your system get a black belt in 3 years?


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## searcher (Nov 13, 2006)

There is nothing wrong with moving up to BB in 3 years.   I have had students do it in 3 and they are pretty good.   Alot of it depends on their dedication to training.   I know that you said they train only 2 hours per week, but not all training for the MAs are in the MAs.  Other things like, lifting weights, running,etc. all play a role in each individual's training.   They may be doing things that you never see.


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## exile (Nov 13, 2006)

searcher said:


> There is nothing wrong with moving up to BB in 3 years.   I have had students do it in 3 and they are pretty good.   Alot of it depends on their dedication to training.   I know that you said they train only 2 hours per week, but not all training for the MAs are in the MAs.  Other things like, lifting weights, running,etc. all play a role in each individual's training.   They may be doing things that you never see.



This is true---I do maybe six hours a week or more of training just in TKD techniques, in addition to weight training and interval cardios on a regular basis. It depends (or it _should_ depend) on how much `homework' the student does.

But as Carol points out, a lot depends on what it is that the instructor is looking for. A student who does a lot of homework will still only be able to show up in as many classes as there are, which is the same number as there are for a student who does the bare-bones minimum. If the BB is awarded the assumption that everyone who shows up enough times has `paid their dues' (as vs. a requirement that people perform to a certain standard), that is a very dicey way to proceed. Then again, that's going to be a problem whether they get the BB in three years or in five...


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## donna (Nov 13, 2006)

Our style is similar, It is possible to obtain your black belt in 3 years, but saying that does not mean that everyone does. Some are more dedicated and the ones that do progress that quickly are usually the ones that attend at LEAST 3 times a week and do lots of extracurricular practice. And some people are more physically able than others as well.  Each is graded according to their own personal progress not according to x amount of years in that style.


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## Hand Sword (Nov 14, 2006)

kachi, that time frame sounds reasonable. either way, it's a longer stint to Black belt than most of the commercial schools. They would consider that time frame an eternity.


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## Southwell (Nov 14, 2006)

Yes, it all depends on how much you practise, I see guys who go to class week after week and you can tell they don't practise at home. Then there's some who have a hard time picking the material up. Its all up to you this is your journey. If your instructor doesn't give out rank like candy then when he or she says its time to test then feel comfortable that they think your ready, wheither its 2 or 10 yrs but if you have 7 to 10 yr olds running around your dojo with full blacks on well...


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## Cirdan (Nov 14, 2006)

Do I think 3 yrs is a short time to reach BB? Yes. Too short? Not if your instructor has high standards and this is a minimum rather than a timed belt dispenser.
But of course there is no universal standard to what a black belt means anyway.


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## The Kidd (Nov 14, 2006)

I think it boils down to 2 camps, those who are traditionalists and think that out of respect for the system and people who have gone before them there must be a standard wait time to have proper appreciation for the art and the others who think that if you have the knowledge it does not matter about time.

I wonder though that if someone is coming to class 4 or 5 times a week, working out so many hours a week, and obviously working on the art at home (your seeing the improvement in class) does that not show a dedication and a passion for the art as well. We have heard in so many threads on MT that it is not the belt you wear but the person who wears it. So does that translate to it does not matter how much time you spend but the knowledge and proficency you show?


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## Drac (Nov 14, 2006)

bignick said:


> So...if I followed you right, 3 years to get your black belt? Seems reasonable enough. Slower than some, faster than others, the average is usually quoted from 3-5 years.


 


exile said:


> I'm with bignick on this---three years sounds to me like the faster end of what is still a `normal' time frame.


 
I agree with both of these..


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## searcher (Nov 14, 2006)

One thing we should remember is that BB is truly a mark of having down the basics.   Yeah, you may be better than joe-blow street guy, but you are truly a novice.   No matter what anyone thinks.


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## Grenadier (Nov 14, 2006)

Getting a black belt in 3 years isn't unreasonable at all.  That's well within the "average" time for most traditional schools, who will usually say 2.5-5 years as the "norm."  This is assuming that someone trains 2-3 times a week.  

The way I see it, if a student is mentally and physically ready, and has shown consistently good performance, dedication, and effort, then I see no reason why I shouldn't let him test earlier than the others.  There's nothing to be gained by holding him back, if the requirements are already fulfilled.  

Some people can do it in two years or less, although these are the folks who train 8+ times a week, and are already self-motivated.  As before, if they show that they are ready, I'd let them test.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 14, 2006)

*I would have to say that 3 years is not too fast. We usually have a student take 3 1/2 years sometimes 4. I have seen it in 2 1/2 years if they student learns quickly or has previous experience in another style.*
*On a side note Joe Lewis got is shodan on Okinawa from Shimabuku Eizo Hanshi in 6 months of hard training. And I would be shocked by that but he turned out to be a very good martial artist.*


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## kingkong89 (Nov 14, 2006)

some schools do it your way and have time periods,that is why there are so young of black belts out there. my school system you are tesed when you are ''ready''. so you could be a yellow belt for 4 years or a brown for 6 years.

Sensei Coleman
        '89


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## bydand (Nov 14, 2006)

Kingkongs school sounds a lot like the one I go to.  It is very difficult to make rank and it takes a lot longer than any other school around.  But, when you get it, you know you have earned it with no doubt.  Average white to 1st Black if training 1 or 2 days a week the whole time is 6-10 years.  1st black to 2nd is 2 or 3 years.  It may sound like a long time (and it is) but, whenever we go to a seminar someplace else, it feels great being better than a lot of the higher belts there.  Plus 99% of us in the school are not there for the belt colors to change quickly, but for the training.  And we like it.

I think the average is 3-5 years for a BB in most schools though.


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## The Kidd (Nov 14, 2006)

What irritates the crude out of me is these schools who say you can join their "Black Belt Club" for several thousands of dollars and we will ensure your child makes Black Belt.

We have gotten several of these kids from other schools who walk in with a black belt from such and such school and they are on the same level as our Orange Belts.


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## kachi (Nov 14, 2006)

I must thank everyone for their responses. It's something that's been bothering me for a while and it's good to put my mind a ease, it's also good to see what other people think about the issue.




Xue Sheng said:


> I agree with bignick, but I have a question.
> 
> Does everyone in your system get a black belt in 3 years?



No, 3 years is a minimum. Those that wouldn't be able to, skilled enough or committed enough to go for their next belt will not be allowed to go. But the majority of students end up going through to the grading and I've only ever seen about 2 - 3 fail in my few years of MA training.



searcher said:


> One thing we should remember is that BB is truly a mark of having down the basics.   Yeah, you may be better than joe-blow street guy, but you are truly a novice.   No matter what anyone thinks.



I understand this, but there is a higher level of skill, discipline and dedication that is expected once you reach BB and I was confused as to whether 3 years was sufficient enough time to aquire those attributes.



kingkong89 said:


> some schools do it your way and have time periods,that is why there are so young of black belts out there. my school system you are tesed when you are ''ready''. so you could be a yellow belt for 4 years or a brown for 6 years.
> 
> Sensei Coleman
> '89



I'll just point out that we don't run strictly off time periods, but that's what the majority receive their belt in and we have age restrictions in regards to rank. Juniors can't get BB obviously and I think 16 is the minimum age to receive a BB.

Also i'll just add that i'll be going for my Shodan-Ho this Saturday, which is what spurred me to start this thread.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 14, 2006)

kachi said:


> No, 3 years is a minimum. Those that wouldn't be able to, skilled enough or committed enough to go for their next belt will not be allowed to go. But the majority of students end up going through to the grading and I've only ever seen about 2 - 3 fail in my few years of MA training.


 
Thank you or responding.

Then I do not think 3 years is not to fast.

The reason for my question is that there was a school in my area that was guaranteeing black belts to all that signed a year contract and that is just wrong. 

But if it is a minimum of 3 and longer for those that need it then it sounds ok.


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## Drac (Nov 14, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> The reason for my question is that there was a school in my area that was guaranteeing black belts to all that signed a year contract and that is just wrong.


 
Yes, that IS wrong....


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## exile (Nov 14, 2006)

Drac said:


> Yes, that IS wrong....



It sure is---but it seems to be what makes the world go 'round in a lot of the MAs. I don't really get the thinking behind it... how can anyone feel good knowing that their `black belt' is something _anyone_ with enough $$ could get? How being admired by people who don't know any better mean that much to anyone?

It just seems so... _pointless!_


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## Drac (Nov 14, 2006)

exile said:


> It sure is---but it seems to be what makes the world go 'round in a lot of the MAs. I don't really get the thinking behind it... how can anyone feel good knowing that their `black belt' is something _anyone_ with enough $$ could get? How being admired by people who don't know any better mean that much to anyone?
> 
> It just seems so... _pointless!_


 
You don't even have to be bothered with going to the dojo or dojang to train at all..Log onto e-bay...You can buy almost any rank you want COMPLETE with the wood frame so you can display it..


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## exile (Nov 14, 2006)

Drac said:


> You don't even have to be bothered with going to the dojo or dojang to train at all..Log onto e-bay...You can buy almost any rank you want COMPLETE with the wood frame so you can display it..



This reminds me to a T of those places which will sell you a college or graduate degree (also with the frame thrown in, lol)---every so often a few of these manage to get through our spam filters---again, I don't understand the thinking---does anyone believe that any potenetial employer is really going to be fooled by something like that? And with these fake MA credentials, how on earth is a McDojo BB going to help you when your luck runs out and you're facing a nasty piece of work carrying a baseball bat? 

(For that particular situation, I make it a rule to carry a few helpful star-shaped metal friends, just to even out the terrain so to speak. But I can't imagine how anyone could think that having a certificate saying you have martial skills that you don't really possess will help you even a little  when things start to go sideways.)


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## JasonASmith (Nov 14, 2006)

Hell, I'm looking at AT LEAST 6 years to get to B.B....
NOONE under 18 gets a B.B....
You know, it's starting to sink in through my granite-plated skull that the rank doesn't matter...Being able to use what you've learned to its greatest efficiency does...I find myself every day drifting away from the quest for the B.B., and drifting towards the quest for a stronger soul and a better life, and it just continues to validate the quality of what I am learning...I don't just want be a B.B.;  I want to be THE BEST B.B. THAT I CAN BE...Thankfully, I have a Sensei who demands perfection in ALL aspects of the art.


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## Seeking Zen (Nov 14, 2006)

Well, I can't speak for the norm, as I have no idea what the averages are. But at my dojo the minimum is 4-4 1/2 years up to 8.  Brown belts must train for 18 months before entering a 6 month BB preparation period in which they must attend 5 days a week and lose some of there seniority, be the brunt of all multiple partner sparring drills, self-defense training and must do dojo chores ie...the washrooms!  They must prepare a paper on Goju history and what karate means to them as well as a resume of experience.  Further, other factors such as dojo participation (assisting in class) seminars, tournament assistance etc...can have an influence. Our Sensei is hands on and teaches 95% of all classes with assistants. ( i don't know how but he knows where everyone is at and what is next for them at all times!!!)  Oh...I'm not sure about others but we have two BB gradings as well.


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## Robert Lee (Nov 14, 2006)

Depending on styles 3 to 5 years is average. But instructors must see when you are ready. That being some will get graded earlyer then others. Time and training shows when you are getting ready. It used to take about 15 years to grade up to 5th dan. Now days you see people doing it in 5 to 7 years kind of buying the rank or instructors that basicly give away that rank.  As its been said Shodan means you are now a good brown belt ready to learn even more now. On to the softer more often effecetive tools of the training now.


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## searcher (Nov 14, 2006)

Robert Lee said:


> It used to take about 15 years to grade up to 5th dan. Now days you see people doing it in 5 to 7 years kind of buying the rank or instructors that basicly give away that rank.


 

Yeah, I should have waited to start training until later on and I would be the same rank I am now.   It is very dis-heartening to see under-skilled karate-ka wearing some high rank.   This is why we cannot compromise our standards for the sake of ___________(fill in with whatever).


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## twendkata71 (Nov 15, 2006)

*Yeah, the young black belt thing bothers me a bit. I really don't like the idea of promoting anyone to shodan under the age of at least 16. This is one of the things that has made the image of black belt lessen over the years. Children do not generally have the maturity to hold black belt.  It took me 5 years to make shodan. I took my time and wanted to earn the belt. *
*The whole expensive black belt program thing is a discusting Mcdojo thing. Personally if I am promoting someone to shodan I don't charge for the test. They have to go through several hours of testing  and when they are done they have earned it and if they do not pass then they go back and train for several more months and try again. The way I look at it is if they are out there with a black belt on that I gave them then I want them to represent me the best they can. If they look bad, I look bad.*


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## Cirdan (Nov 15, 2006)

kachi said:


> Also i'll just add that i'll be going for my Shodan-Ho this Saturday, which is what spurred me to start this thread.


 
Good luck! :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2006)

Drac said:


> Yes, that IS wrong....


 


exile said:


> It sure is---but it seems to be what makes the world go 'round in a lot of the MAs. I don't really get the thinking behind it... how can anyone feel good knowing that their `black belt' is something anyone with enough $$ could get? How being admired by people who don't know any better mean that much to anyone?
> 
> It just seems so... pointless!


 
Although I do not know if this school still makes such claims, sadly it is one of the largest independent MA school/chains in my area. The main school is the largest free standing MA school I have ever seen and it has at least 3 satellite schools.


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## kosho (Nov 15, 2006)

I feel that 4 - 6 years is a good round time frame. BUT  there is always that 1 person who just takes off with the Martial Art. Time in class, maybe privates ETC. time at home also is a factor. so 3 years could truly be enought time. there truly are many keys that need to be looked at. ALSO  that person who is a black belt under that person is a reflection of that person. so if he is a production of that teacher.  that teachers name is on
the line.  if that makes sence.
my 2 cents
steve


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 18, 2006)

Hm. Totally dependant on the person's qualifications. For a total newbie - I've had my top students progressing through their ranks at about three months per rank. The average is five to six months per rank.


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## Goldendawn8 (Nov 18, 2006)

I don't think you can put an amount of time needed to progress to earning your black belt. My master in China just gave me the title of Sifu without any belts at all.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 18, 2006)

Goldendawn8 said:


> I don't think you can put an amount of time needed to progress to earning your black belt. My master in China just gave me the title of Sifu without any belts at all.


 
A question: How long did you train with your sifu?


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## Brandon Fisher (Nov 19, 2006)

I have a student that could poteninally do it in 3 years.  This is training 6 days a week 3 - 4 hours a day.


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## WyldFya (Nov 19, 2006)

Personally, I feel that basing this measurment in years is wrong.  It took me 7 years to get my shodan in Wado-ryu.  It isn't common for 5 years if training with one of the major teachers, generally it is 7-10 years to achieve shodan.  Several schools advance too fast IMO, such as Kyokushin where one student has gotten a shodan in only 1.5 years.  Way to fast IMO.  However, he trained at least 30 hours a week, and many of those hours were spent with one or two blackbelts and no other students.  I trained 25-35 hours a week from blue belt on.  Personally amount of time put in is a HUGE factor, but more important that time put it, or even technique, is experience.  Some students of mine have amazing technique, but that isn't enough to qualify them for a shodan.  Discipline and respect are needed before any student of mine is allowed to even think of testing for a shodan.  Without this, if ever a student fails, he will place blame somewhere else, and continue in the same path.  With discipline and respect the student will realize they were flawed, and work harder to fix their flaws.  In this way they will grow themselves, and no longer be in need of a teacher in order to train and learn.  A teacher will still help them learn, but is not needed any longer.  At this point I feel that the student is now ready to become a teacher.


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## exile (Nov 19, 2006)

WyldFya said:


> Personally, I feel that basing this measurment in years is wrong.  It took me 7 years to get my shodan in Wado-ryu.  It isn't common for 5 years if training with one of the major teachers, generally it is 7-10 years to achieve shodan.  Several schools advance too fast IMO, such as Kyokushin where one student has gotten a shodan in only 1.5 years.  Way to fast IMO.  However, he trained at least 30 hours a week, and many of those hours were spent with one or two blackbelts and no other students.  I trained 25-35 hours a week from blue belt on.  Personally amount of time put in is a HUGE factor, but more important that time put it, or even technique, is experience.  Some students of mine have amazing technique, but that isn't enough to qualify them for a shodan.  Discipline and respect are needed before any student of mine is allowed to even think of testing for a shodan.  Without this, if ever a student fails, he will place blame somewhere else, and continue in the same path.  With discipline and respect the student will realize they were flawed, and work harder to fix their flaws.  In this way they will grow themselves, and no longer be in need of a teacher in order to train and learn.  A teacher will still help them learn, but is not needed any longer.  At this point I feel that the student is now ready to become a teacher.









 Good perspective, WyldFya...


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## Sepanto (Nov 25, 2006)

In our dojo, which i joined a few months ago, there are guys who are 8 years and are only green belt, yet they kick the assess of self-prounounced black belts who trained for only a year or two.


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## searcher (Nov 25, 2006)

I would like to add to my previous statement about things that may not be seen.   I started TKD after having trained for several years in other styles.   That is something that may not be known to others in the class.   Only the instructor knew that I had previous training.   I asked him to run me through the format as if I had just walked in with no previous training.   It worked for a little while, but my rank testing was by far faster than anybody else in the school.    I am a firm believer that there are many things that people don't know that would change their opinion on why some are moving past them in rank.   

Rank is a way for instructors to know where you are at and what you need to be working on.   Try running a group of 100 students and remember where everyone is at all the time.  It is very difficult.


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## twendkata71 (Nov 25, 2006)

*I think that people try to start teaching too soon. Just because they are a black belt doesn't automatically mean that they are able or should be teaching. I would say no earlier than 3rd dan to start teaching on their own. 1st and 2nd dan can start to teach under supervision. Really shodan is just a higher level of beginner. *
*That is why there is shodan ho(probationary shodan). To some of us the black belt is still an important and respected thing that we do not rush into or take lightly. *
* In the early 50's and 60's it was a rare thing for someone to make black belt/ or shodan. So, rare in fact that a person holding  a black belt was well respected in the community. Now, it has become so easy (in the publics eye) because of mcdojo's and poor commercial schools, to get a black belt that people really do not think much of a person that has attained the black belt. Also in the 50's and 60.s it was rare for anyone to have higher than a 5th dan. Heck, when Funakoshi died in 1957 he was a 5th dan. Now there are 10th dans everywhere.  But, that is another subject all together. Sorry if I went a bit offtopic.*


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## PeaceWarrior (Nov 26, 2006)

At my school, it took our only blackbelt almost fifteen years to earn it, but you can tell his skill level is great.  At our school, there isnt a set time frame but when Sifu sees youre ready for something, he lets you know.  Belts are done in the same way. 

Yeah the whole McDojo thing is kinda irritating, because you get these 10-15 year old black belts with puffed up egos and little discipline.  The only reason one so young can claim a blackbelt is if they dont know what a blackbelt really is.  IMO 18 should be the minimum age for BB.  Otherwise I agree with whats been said about time and effort vs "belt dispensers."

Peace

Keith


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## Naha (Nov 30, 2006)

One of the things I have tried to stress to my son over the years is that the belts are meaningless.  If a person is a brown belt and there are blue belts that have better techniques, then they are in better shape.  Concentrate on the knowledge; the belts take care of themselves.  Of course, he has friends at a local TKD establishment that are gaining belts every month or two (black belt in about a year).  However, what *he* points out to me is how flawed their basics are.  They make fundamental mistakes in techniques.  Anybody can buy a belt.  AWMA doesn't ask for credentials when they sell one.


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## KempoFlow (Nov 30, 2006)

I study at a Villari's school, and it takes a minimum of little over 4 years to achieve the first black belt.  

**Edited to add that I am not sure how long it takes to get through the brown belt levels.  It could be longer than that.  I posted the 4 years based on getting through the brown stripes in the same average time as the lower belts.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 1, 2006)

*It took me 5 years to get shodan.  I had several months off for a broken ankle though. The average in our organization is 3 1/2 -4 years.  Even when I was training in Matsubayashi Shorin ryu the average was 4 years.*


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## ISMA girl (Dec 3, 2006)

this is a hard one if you think about original training vs training today.
if schools tried to train the old way most would be in court everyday.
all ranks before black (to me) are just foundation if you have a solid foundation then you are ready to build the house. In the age case that to is questionable there are alot of factors to consider. i.e my son 11yrs old my daughter 9yrs old and myself 32yrs old have been training for the same amount of time we hold the same rank of 3rd kyu brown all of us train extremely hard along with being well disciplined and respectful and all the other things said to make a black belt  a black belt. so why should I receive a bb before my children who train just as hard as me. That is why there is a title of jr black belt which has a different meaning and expections from an adult. i don't believe in handing blackbelts out  for children or adults. it must be earned.


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## Jonathan Randall (Dec 3, 2006)

ISMA girl said:


> this is a hard one if you think about original training vs training today.
> if schools tried to train the old way most would be in court everyday.
> all ranks before black (to me) are just foundation if you have a solid foundation then you are ready to build the house. In the age case that to is questionable there are alot of factors to consider. i.e my son 11yrs old my daughter 9yrs old and myself 32yrs old have been training for the same amount of time we hold the same rank of 3rd kyu brown all of us train extremely hard along with being well disciplined and respectful and all the other things said to make a black belt a black belt. so why should I receive a bb before my children who train just as hard as me. That is why there is a title of jr black belt which has a different meaning and expections from an adult. i don't believe in handing blackbelts out for children or adults. it must be earned.


 
I agree - provided your children, and it does not sound like they would, do not develop either overconfidence as a result of their rank or an attitude. Also, care must be taken that they do not become a target of school challenges because they're "black belts". In Japan, which developed the Dan system and belt colours, young folks often hold dans. It's only in the U.S., with its false image of the shodan as martial arts expert who can defeat all comers, that there is a problem. BTW, welcome to Martial Talk and its great to see you so involved with your children's lives!


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## ISMA girl (Dec 3, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:


> I agree - provided your children, and it does not sound like they would, do not develop either overconfidence as a result of their rank or an attitude. Also, care must be taken that they do not become a target of school challenges because they're "black belts". In Japan, which developed the Dan system and belt colours, young folks often hold dans. It's only in the U.S., with its false image of the shodan as martial arts expert who can defeat all comers, that there is a problem. BTW, welcome to Martial Talk and its great to see you so involved with your children's lives!


your right my children don't have egos my children have great attitudes and they only blame themselves for mistakes they never blame anyone or any thing else. my children compete and they usually(not to brag) place at least 3rd and their divisions are very large 20+ and like i said they don't have egos. competition to them is a way to learn and better themselves it's not about winning. If they learn something they have won. i will not have it any other way.


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## bignick (Dec 3, 2006)

ISMA girl said:


> this is a hard one if you think about original training vs training today.
> if schools tried to train the old way most would be in court everyday.
> all ranks before black (to me) are just foundation if you have a solid foundation then you are ready to build the house. In the age case that to is questionable there are alot of factors to consider. i.e my son 11yrs old my daughter 9yrs old and myself 32yrs old have been training for the same amount of time we hold the same rank of 3rd kyu brown all of us train extremely hard along with being well disciplined and respectful and all the other things said to make a black belt  a black belt. so why should I receive a bb before my children who train just as hard as me. That is why there is a title of jr black belt which has a different meaning and expections from an adult. i don't believe in handing blackbelts out  for children or adults. it must be earned.



If schools trained the way they did in the old days, there wouldn't be any black belts to worry about...


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## JackShadow (Dec 18, 2006)

I havent read this whole thread but I do wish to comment on it.

Promoting someone based on their time in is one of my biggest pet peeves.  Someone should be promoted based on skill and dedication.  I join the martial arts at age 5 and have been in it for 12 years now.  According to your sensi's system, I would of had a black belt by age 8 or 9.  To me this just seems wrong.  I was a very hyper child and didn't learn much of anything untill I was 11 or 12 and didnt really boom untill after 14.  My sensi didn't promote me because I had time in but only when I was ready for my belt.

I'm not attack your style or sensi, but I just believe the rank should be based on the perfection of your martial abilities and not just on time in.  I hate it when I see brown belts and black belts doing half-thrown together katas that look like they could of come from blue and purple belts.


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## shoshinkan (Dec 19, 2006)

about 5 years to shodan, and I dont teach kids, min age to train is 16.

Its a guide and not fixed as people are individuals and rank is simply a recognition of skill/attitude, and an increase in responsability given by the Sensei to the student, 

Of course our ego's often tell us different............


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## Robert Lee (Dec 19, 2006)

JackShadow said:


> I havent read this whole thread but I do wish to comment on it.
> 
> Promoting someone based on their time in is one of my biggest pet peeves. Someone should be promoted based on skill and dedication. I join the martial arts at age 5 and have been in it for 12 years now. According to your sensi's system, I would of had a black belt by age 8 or 9. To me this just seems wrong. I was a very hyper child and didn't learn much of anything untill I was 11 or 12 and didnt really boom untill after 14. My sensi didn't promote me because I had time in but only when I was ready for my belt.
> 
> I'm not attack your style or sensi, but I just believe the rank should be based on the perfection of your martial abilities and not just on time in. I hate it when I see brown belts and black belts doing half-thrown together katas that look like they could of come from blue and purple belts.


Many instructors do this But on an average It takes 3 to 5 years to test for shodan.  Some people do not train as others or do not learn as well. These people take longer. As for being young. Well used to be any person under 16 was never promoted to a full black belt. But could make junior black belt and retest at 16 for a full black belt. 3 hour and a half classes a week PLUS plenty of training between classes. 3 to 5 years is a fare time. Depends on style.


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## JackShadow (Dec 20, 2006)

Yeah, there was a tournament I went to a year or two back and we were short on peole to judge.  So we pulled all the available black belts.  As it turned out there were two or three kids, when I say kids I mean they were ten or under, who were black belts and were allowed to judge.

These kids were not scoreing right and would give extra points to people they knew or were from their school.  It was very annoying and it was brought up by many people.  Since then it hasnt happened, but it serves as a good example.   Their skill was slightly impressive for their age, but not anything too special, and nothing worth a black belt.  They also lacked the mentality of a higher rank and shold never of been allowed to judge.

My point I'm getting at is that I do agree that full black belts should only be given to older students, but I dont think a set age limit should be imposed.  People have different maturity rates and skill levels.  Promotion should be done on an individual basis.  I dont enjoy seeing a school that promotes very quickly just to claim so many black belts.  My instructor has only promoted around 15 people to Sho Dan in 20+ years and one was given posthumously.  I believe its mainly because of him that I feel so strongly about earning your black belt and not just paying for it.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 21, 2006)

*I don't think that kid black belt under the age of 16 should be allowed to judge in tournaments. They are not ready for that. Especially in kumite competition.  Maybe lower level (yellow,blue,green) kata competition. In many styles junior black belt are marked with a white stripe running the length of their black belt to set them apart from adult black belts. *


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## JackShadow (Dec 21, 2006)

I did help judge local, smaller tournaments when I first got my black belt at around age 15.  But I haven't started judging larger ones untill recently out of repsect for myself and others.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 22, 2006)

*It is a good idea if you are not that experienced as a judge to take a referee course at either an AAU,USAKF, or USANKF event. It will make you a much better referee.*


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## Drag'n (Dec 22, 2006)

Personally I think 3 years is too fast, if you're only training 2~3 times per week. I've seen waaay too many guys sporting black belts who just dont deserve it. 
I agree that it shouldnt be a matter of time, but a matter of skill and dedication. But to reach the level of proficiency expected from a black belt, you're going to have to put some serious training time in.
While it is possible to get a black belt in 4 years at my present dojo, not many do.
I'm about to test for my shodan this weekend. I've been with this dojo for 4 years, training 3~4 times a week. But I had 10 years previous training in other styles. Some guys who were my sempai when I started are still brown belts.
In my style, to get a black belt is not just to show you've learned the basics. You have to prove yourself a strong and capable fighter with unbreakable fighting spirit. You have to be willing to go beyond what the average guy is capable of doing.
This is pretty typical in kyokushin influenced styles.
If you're wearing a black belt you'll be expected to prove your superior skills in kumite every time you step on the mat with another fighter.
I dont think black belts should be given to people just because they've done their time and covered the required curricculum.
In some dojos the shodan is still something to be  respected.
I prefer it that way. It makes the acheivement of earning one so much more fulfilling.
I got my first black belt relatively easily and it means little to me.


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## cstanley (Dec 22, 2006)

In most Okinawan karate ryu, it is between 3 and 4 years. 3 years is ok if the student trains regularly. Less than that seems too fast for me. But, some instructors drag the time out artificially and call it "high standards." I don't think that is necessary. A serious, good student can do it in 3-4 years. I have sometimes heard 15 years to fifth dan. That is 3 years per dan. That seems right.


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