# W. Hock Hochheim



## Stickboxer (Apr 3, 2002)

OK. Different forums, even in different areas per forum, occasionally bring up this guy. Talking about knives, best videos, greatest martial artists... whatever the subject, when someone mentions this guy, detractors come out in full force!

I'm training in multiple systems, one of which is Hock's, because his Scientific Fighting Congress delves into various areas in which I'm interested (Filipino and JKD-LIKE material). Still, I hold some apprehension because so many people say so much against him.

I want to throw out the question: what do people think about him?

For the record, I don't think I'll let myself be influenced by what even the majority of people think, because I really like the guy myself. While I haven't met him yet, I spoke to him many years ago on the phone; despite being in a hurry, he was willing to stop and answer my questions right then. He exhibited the kind of courtesy I rarely see in many teachers.

I plan on going to his seminars and will continue training under one of his local instructors, my goal to achieve rank in his system. Its good stuff, very well organized. More importantly, I've watched his videos and realized "My God, he's right," and then changed my way of thinking, despite how well-founded and logical I thought I was. Many times, I've concluded that the guy is a genius!

Your thoughts?


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## Kempojujutsu (Apr 3, 2002)

I only have heard good things about Hock. That was one reason why I bought his knife series, The journeyman & Tradesman video. The only thing when we practice knife attacks and the attacker fights in a uncommited attack we seem to die almost every time. Hope the bad guys don't get this tape.

Bob Thomas:samurai: :duel:


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## Stickboxer (Apr 3, 2002)

My first kickboxing teacher earned his instructorship under Inosanto but really trained with Ron Balicki. My teacher taught me everything Balicki taught, almost verbatim, and even gave me private lesson footage. Since then, I've purchased Balicki's three knife videos, which are really good and chock full of information. Blending all that, I've taught knife-passing defenses in private lessons with police officers. "When the knife comes in, use the back of your hand to take it safely past you in order to effect a disarm" was a typical lesson.

Hock teaches to forego a palasut drill and instead, grab that sucker as soon as you can. Makes sense to me.

Likewise, I've done plenty of chi sao and hubud and the like, at times looking away or even blindfolded so as to really develop the sensitivity. While he admits there may be some value in closing your eyes once a while when doing such energy drills, Hock says "For crying out loud, LOOK at the bastard who's trying 
By the way, to kill you!" My God, he's right! I can imagine clashing with a knife-wielding mugger, and I engage arms then, out of habit developed in class, look away... that'd be just stupid of me.

One of the things that attracts people to Hock, as it has also done to Soyak Kali and Michael Janich, is the emphasis on pure knife fighting. An avid practitioner of the Filipino styles, where on average 20% or less of the time is spent working knives, in Hock's program, 100 hours of training equates to 100 hours of working with the blade.

By the way, Kempojujutsu, you bring up a really good point. What happens when the "bad guys" find access to videos or even classes dealing with knife fighting and the like? Its now common knowledge that one of the 9-11 terrorists was well-versed in a particularly aggressive martial style...


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## arnisandyz (Apr 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stickboxer _
> 
> By the way, Kempojujutsu, you bring up a really good point. What happens when the "bad guys" find access to videos or even classes dealing with knife fighting and the like? Its now common knowledge that one of the 9-11 terrorists was well-versed in a particularly aggressive martial style... [/B]




That "style"  most likely was Silat.  It is said that some of the southern Philippines bladework has heavy influence from the migration of people from indonesia , so their bladework is somewhat similar to ours.  Most likely they did train knife skills, but i doubt they learned it from one of Hock's tapes or the like, knifefighting is engrained in their culture, just as it is in the PI, they have had access far longer than the general public in the US has.

What i worry about is giving lessons to someone here in the US with wrong intentions.  I always screen my students, even give them a couple overview lessons to get a feel for them, if it feels strange, i wont teach them.


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## BIG Sean Madigan (May 14, 2002)

Hi,

I have a ton of respect for Hock.  I think the man has done tons of fantastic research, and his teaching make sense, and are easily added to most curriculums.  

At a seminar in New Jersey once a person asked about footwork..and Hock answered something to the effect of 'if you were able to walk into this room, then you already have the needed footwork'.  

I don't give a **** what most people say about ANY martial artist...good or bad.  Almost every opinon I've read about people on the net is almost totally based on 'loyality' and the almighty $$.

If you like Hock...work with him...if you don't like Hock, then don't, it's  really that simple.

All the best,

BIG Sean Madigan

http://www.combativesolutions.com


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## BRAM (May 19, 2002)

Hock is one of the few of us with Black belts from Professor Presas and Grandmaster Ernesto Presas..
and he was a Knife master under GM Ernesto Presas...
His heart still beats to th drum of Modern Arnis...
Hes been on the street as a cop both in Military and civilian life..
He's pretty straight forward...and he doesn't teach fancy complicated stuff that won't work on the street..
He's a good man and hes followed his heart to do what he feels is best..and payed for it with blood n sweat...
and we can all gleam something from that..
Hes got lots of good info...
I'm proud to say Hock is one of my friends!

Bram

OK..I forgot..the other part of the question was should you study with Hock? sure..absolutely...


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 24, 2002)

All I can say is if you like what the person teaches and it makes sense to you, then continue studying with that person.  I have heard more good aboutHock than I have bad.


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## GouRonin (Jun 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Stickboxer _
> *Hock teaches to forego a palasut drill and instead, grab that sucker as soon as you can. Makes sense to me.
> *



I was watching _"Real TV"_ today. They had knife attacks caught on tape. In almost every scenario the victim grabbed at the knife and held it away. No passing, no parry, no disarm. The one guy even started to kick the cr@p out of the assailant when the knife was grabbed.

Hock is pretty real. I was thinking to myself after seeing this, _"Wow. Hock was right."_


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## arnisador (Jun 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *I was watching "Real TV" today. They had knife attacks caught on tape. In almost every scenario the victim grabbed at the knife and held it away. No passing, no parry, no disarm. *



It's hard to beat real world info. like this. I'd love to see this--what is the show? What channel is it on?


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## GouRonin (Jun 24, 2002)

Real TV is a show that shows live action stuff caught on tape. Stuff like crashes, attacks etc. It's on the new TNN tv station.

The knife stuff was very surprising. In one incident, this lady pulls a butcher knife out of her purse and attacks two store clerks. They actually grab at the knifehand and hold it. One gets a nick in the ear initially and the other a scratch on the arm. The start bashing the hand with the knife on the display case and the lady drops it. They pick it up and start to slash at her and chase her off.

In another spot this guy in thailand attacks a guard at a store with a knife and he fends off the knife with his hands until he can grab it and then he and the other clerk beat this guy half to death.

In many cases grabbing the knife arm seems to have saved their lives.


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## arnisador (Jun 24, 2002)

I was attacked by a guy with a knife once. I grabbed it. It wa sa week before my Modern Arnis black belt test. It's instinct, though in my case there was more to the situation than that (I couldn't easily move to the side).

I watch shows like that when I can--most of it is car chases, but the odd real fight provides info. that's golden.


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## Kirk (Jun 24, 2002)

Okay, so all agree, his slant on things are as good as they come.
What impressed me with him, is his ability to present the material.
I scoffed at the price of his seminar, yet begrudgingly paid it.  He's
a damned fine instructor, and he really presents the material well.


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## arnisador (Jun 24, 2002)

Do you mind saying what that price is? I would like to attend one of his seminars some time.

I have a police videos show on now (on FX) for just this type of research--they bore me to tears otherwise. A cop just slipped a wild haymaker. It's good to see what types of attacks are being used. Some people spend so much time learning how to defend against a roundhouse to the head when overwhlemingly it seems to me that what you see is a.) a right hook or overhand, possibly prefaced by a left-hand shirt grab, and b.) a clinch/tackle. One wants to put the odds in one's own favor!


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 24, 2002)

I have heard his seminars are expensive, but well worth the price.  It all comes to what you value.


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jun 25, 2002)

He is now charging 125 dollars per two day seminar.


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## arnisador (Jun 25, 2002)

That seems a very fair price, actually.


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jun 25, 2002)

It is if you have never been to one of his seminars.  After awhile a lot of the info is repeated and it is hard to justify spending that much money.  Hoch's value is in the structure of his system and the many drills he can teach you.  Once you get the jist of it, 125 dollars becomes a lot of money.  He is very talented and does put on a good seminar.


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## Kirk (Jun 25, 2002)

I didn't mean to imply that it's an outrageous sum .. but 
compared to most kenpo seniors, it's like 3 - 4 times what they're
charging.


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## BRAM (Jun 25, 2002)

A computer class would cost you more than that..a professional seminar be it Law or Medicine...a couple of nosebleed tickets to a concert by an artist to whom you already own the album would cost more than that..
Thats an OK bottle of Champagne...
Thats the cost of a production knife....( barely!)
My New Balances almost cost that!and I bet Nikes cost the same..
Its basically a single dinner @ Emerils!
Hock's price is cheap..
$125 for 2 days? 
DO IT!

Same thing over and over again? Professor Presas used to tell me that way I could find the little things he did..
because I wasn't watching the big things anymore...
That my seeing the "same thing" I'd be able to ask the correct questions of him and what he was teaching-doing....

Hock spent lots of his time & money to learn it, digest it and rearrange it so others could easily learn it...
Getting it for $125@ pop is cheap...


You could spend $125 very quickly in this world..Go spend it on yourself & Hock!


Bram
PS: I guess you guys don't go to the other knife camps..cause then you'd jump @ ONLY $125...ROFL...


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## GouRonin (Jun 25, 2002)

Is that per person or his fee in total?


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## BRAM (Jun 25, 2002)

Ok I'll bite..I know I know..this is really a joke..a sarastic question? a rhetorical.... but I'll bite..
Yes..thats an individual fee..I'm sure of that...
$125 per person...
I'm sure Hock gets a normal fee for 2 days of his time...
hes certainly not teaching for $125...ROFL...
Jim, Kelly, Mike, Steve, Ernie...whomever ..we do get our full fee per day plus expenses...and the individual entry fees help pay our fee and location costs and advertising costs..etc etc...
no we are not cheap....

for example:
RIDDLES are $900-$1800 per person..
Water 'n Steels are $600-800 per person...
Beach Blades are $600 per person...
Price range is for specific type of instruction or course...
yes..it includes food and room for 2 days...no travel or hotels on either side of seminar..nor required training equipment...

OK.. I think I answered that politely and without undo sarcasm...
right?
Really its worth going!....


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## redfive (Aug 21, 2002)

I have trained with Hock since 1995, when he was still a Denton Tx. police officer. I have two black belts under him and have two other black belts in two other systems. I have traianed with a lot of people over the years, and Hock is not one of the best, but the best. He added reality to the first two systems I studied and showed me what realy works and what does not. He has real life experties, and has faced men with knives and other impact weapons. He teaches reality and reality only. No fluff, no flare, no fancy B.S. flashy cool looking crap. He has studied many diffrent systems, and takes the best of all of them to create a very effective combat course or method, but not a system. He is not bound by style or tradition or politics and is under constant evelution of his methods. As for his price, well you get what you pay for. To me my live is worth it. He has a way of simplifying techniques. Where one instuctor may take a year or so to teach a set of locks or disarms, Hock can do it in a matter of hours. He is one of The best instructors around and every one should take the time to see and train with him. He has something to offer to everyone, no matter what  system or style you happen to be. To him its a matter of servival, anything goes. "Cheat first , cheat in the middle and cheat last." " If you find your self in a fair fight, you did not prepare well enough ahead of time." Hock is not for the squemish or the people who are of high moral conduct when engaging in combat. Fighting is a dirty, filthy, bloody buisness. Hock will teach you how to win or just servive, even how to tuck your tail and hall ***  to fight another day. Hock has tought me much and in my opinion is worth every cent of my money and time. by the way his top instructors are some of the best in there fields, weither its in the arnis/kali/knife area or jujitsu sytems. even combat handgun/shotgun trainingers, bodyguard/bouncer instructors.Sorry about my spelling.  

                                        Your friend in the Arts, Redfive


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

What are the black belts you have through him?


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## redfive (Aug 22, 2002)

Ihold a  Level 10 or 1st Black in the: Archipelago Combatives
                                                         Unarmed Combatives
 and currently working towards my  Knife Combatives cirtification, which is why Hock cought my attention to begin with. He first was teaching the Presas style systems. I was in Modern Arnis at that, time with Anding De Leon, who was one of Remy's students in the Philippines. Hock added a lot to what I new by showing Ernesto's system and more of Remy's. His knife work was great. He later formed the Congress of American Knife Fighters. but there were  some people who wonted stick work, some wonted only hand to hand So the Congress started to branch out. All the courses are specialized in a way, but are all entertwined. the knive course addresses empty hand attack and impact weaponds. The Arch. course addresses stick on stick and knife and stick on empty hand. The hand to hand is just that, but addresses knive threats and impact weapons. then you add in the Doce Monos course and some hand gun and rifle threats and you have a full meal.

                                              your friend in the Arts, Redfive


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

What do you see as the differences between Mr. Hochheim's knife work, Remy Presas', and Ernesto Presas'?


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## redfive (Aug 22, 2002)

Hock uses the blade work of Remy and Ernesto and techniques from Silat, and many military based techniques. Plus what he learned form his stay in the JKD world, Kenpo and Jujitsu, Akijitsu styles and his police work. He will be the first to say that all systems have there good and bad or not so practical techniques. those he leaves out. So he does not teach any one method, but what he feels is the best of. As for Remy and Ernesto, I have never met or trained with Ernesto. But I have trained with many of his students. In my opinion Ernesto seems to be more aggresive and straight to the kill,and teaches more blade and bolo. Remy is more passive and tought a lot more empty hand, but when Remy would stay with Anding, they would work with the bolos and do alot of espada y daga. So they both have equal knowlage in the knife fields. Hock teaches a more spontanious knife method. more ambush style deffences and counters. for enstance one person will attack with a knife while the other has to deffend and get his knife out and counter. or parry and quick draw his combat folder. then jam an opponent up as he tries to draw a knife. So its more real world, street training. not just training were you are always squared off with an opponent, both of you ready to go. But this is all from my perception and other people who have trained with all of the above my say different. At different times and different places, different things are tought. They are all truely the best of the best and you cant go wrong with any of the three.

                                         Your friend in the Arts, Redfive


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

I do Modern Arnis and indeed there are vestiges of the Filipino dueling traditions in it, though there's also a great deal of practical techniques.


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 14, 2003)

I have seen Hoch's stuff and trained with some of his guys. I am nto very impressed with what I have seen. But to be fair, there is very little that impresses me anymore.

I guess if you don't have access to anyone better, (which is true for 999,999 out of a million martial artists) then his books, videos and seminars are worth picking up. The guys who are really good don't tend to run video black belt tests or do open seminars.


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## arnisador (Jul 14, 2003)

He sure gets a lot of attention--he's on the cover of Black Belt this month, for example.


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