# Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed



## eskrima88 (May 20, 2022)

Hello, fellow martial artists.

For a while now, I've been scouring the web for a truly lightweight, collapsible baton, and I keep coming up empty. Even the highest quality models are relatively heavy, and too long to practically conceal.

I'm disappointed to find that no one is making them from carbon fiber or extremely lightweight aluminum. I realize both of these materials can bend or break on impact, but actually hitting someone with a baton in self-defense, to me, is akin to a bicycle accident while wearing a helmet. Once you crash with your helmet, you replace it.

The closest thing I can find what I'm looking for is a collapsible hiking pole. Has anyone seen, or built, anything like what I have in mind? Unfortunately, I am not handy enough to modify a hiking pole to suit my needs.


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

A whip mabye?

I think you start to shoot yourself in the foot a bit when you hit someone and you bat has no weight.

But they do different versions of the tactical whip that tend to run along the lines of this sort of thing.


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## eskrima88 (May 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> A whip mabye?
> 
> I think you start to shoot yourself in the foot a bit when you hit someone and you bat has no weight.
> 
> But they do different versions of the tactical whip that tend to run along the lines of this sort of thing.


Good point. However, the rattan sticks I've used in training are extremely lightweight, but properly aimed, they provide a fair bit of force.


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Good point. However, the rattan sticks I've used in training are extremely lightweight, but properly aimed, they provide a fair bit of force.



One solid piece though.

At a quick google monodock do one. I have used the brand before and they are pretty good. 









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## eskrima88 (May 20, 2022)

drop bear said:


> One solid piece though.
> 
> At a quick google monodock do one. I have used the brand before and they are pretty good.
> 
> ...


Thanks-- way too big and heavy. The hiking poles are featherweight by comparison.


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Thanks-- way too big and heavy. The hiking poles are featherweight by comparison.


Fair enough.


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## geezer (May 20, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Good point. However, the rattan sticks I've used in training are extremely lightweight, but properly aimed, they provide a fair bit of force.


It occurs to me, that if your intentions are to use super-light batons for self-defense, you may end up just really pissing-off your attacker.

It's important to remember that rattan was considered a _training weapon_ in most FMA. Yeah it hurts like hell and can injure you, but if you were _really fighting_ you would ideally choose something with a lot more weight like _bahi_ or _kamagong_ ...or a bladed weapon like a _barong_.

People who are strong and aggressive can wade through a couple of whipping strikes with light rattan, absorbing the damage long enough to close and really hurt you. Check out the many clips of full-contact stick fighting on YouTube (Dog Bros. et al). 

So, what is your intention with these really light batons you are looking for?


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## Buka (May 21, 2022)

The collapsible batons break easy. All of them I’ve seen so far.


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## Dirty Dog (May 21, 2022)

Buka said:


> The collapsible batons break easy. All of them I’ve seen so far.


Agreed. The less overlap there is between the extended joints, the weaker they are going to be. More overlap will make the joints stronger, but then it won't collapse as fully.
And of course, the lighter the baton, the less it's going to hurt, in most cases.


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## Argus (May 22, 2022)

To the OP:

I would strongly suggest a sturdy, full sized umbrella, and to use the tip for thrusting, and for shielding, and not to even think of striking with it. That, or simply a high powered flash light with a thumb button.

As for an ultra light collapsible baton, I think it's just a really bad idea. Now, I want to be open minded here -- I appreciate the damage that can be done with a lightweight rattan stick, and would defend anyone arguing the effectiveness of that (much like I'd defend the idea of conceal carrying "under powered" handgun calibers), but I think what you are talking about here would be a fair bit lighter, less sturdy, and probably not even as long, as a rattan stick. That is unlikely to be effective at all, and will probably just get you in more trouble than it's worth.

Personally, I would carry a high powered flashlight with a thumb button for self defense, to disorient/distract an attacker, and to use potentially as a kubaton. An umbrella, when not out of place, is also a useful tool. Both of these won't get you in trouble and are not seen as weapons, and would be equally or far more effective than a flimsy ultra light "baton."

Something like a hiking pole would be almost entirely useless. If you were a friend of mine dead set on this idea, I'd even invite you to swing it at me as hard as you like while I try to move in and grapple or disarm you. You might get a good hit in, and it'll hurt, but you will not be breaking any bones or doing any serious harm. Meanwhile, I can definitively make my point and spare you from getting killed if you ever did try to use it in self defense. Maybe a better test would be to try to break something roughly simulating various targets on a human. Traditionally, a coconut is often used to gauge whether a strike can be effective against a human head. You won't come anywhere near close to breaking a coconut with an aluminium hiking pole. You would have a hard time even breaking the small bones in an attackers hand.

I understand your want for an ultra light, non fire arm self defense implement. I too tend to prefer very light weight and compact tools and weapons in general. But, I'm afraid this one just isn't very viable. If you truly want a light weight force multiplier, other than the options I mentioned above, maybe something like a kubaton would be appropriate. But beware of the legal ramifications of carrying any dedicated "weapon" where you live.


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## eskrima88 (May 24, 2022)

Argus said:


> To the OP:
> 
> I would strongly suggest a sturdy, full sized umbrella, and to use the tip for thrusting, and for shielding, and not to even think of striking with it. That, or simply a high powered flash light with a thumb button.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.

While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.

Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.

Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.


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## Argus (May 25, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.
> 
> While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.
> 
> ...



Now, the water bottle idea is a great one! Practice striking against a target with it, and see if you can grip it well enough to make good use of it.

I agree with you on blades. I'm not a fan of folding knives for self defense for a bunch of reasons, even though I've trained with them a lot. I love blade arts, but still.


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## Dirty Dog (May 25, 2022)

Argus said:


> I agree with you on blades. I'm not a fan of folding knives for self defense for a bunch of reasons, even though I've trained with them a lot. I love blade arts, but still.


What reasons?


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## geezer (May 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What reasons?


The question I have is whether the problem is with _folding knives vs. fixed blades_, or whether it is a problem with _using knives for self defense_ in general.

Personally, I have no problem with a good quality, heavy duty, locking folder that you can open with one hand. It's probably the most universal _tool_ a person can carry.

...On the other hand, in the world I live in, I don't feel a knife (of any kind) is a great choice for a defensive weapon. Like Argus, I have enjoyed training some blade arts, _but still..._


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## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What reasons?



To small. To fiddly. They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.

So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later. 

Bit if you really want that guy to stop fighting you. Him dying 15 minutes later isn't really going to help you right now.


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## Dirty Dog (May 25, 2022)

geezer said:


> The question I have is whether the problem is with _folding knives vs. fixed blades_, or whether it is a problem with _using knives for self defense_ in general.


Well, since they wrote 





> I'm not a fan of folding knives for self defense


 I think your question is answered.


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## Dirty Dog (May 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> To small.


No they're not. My usual carry knife these days is either a Microtech Ultratech which has a 3.35" blade, or a Benchmade Infidel with a 3.95" blade. Either is plenty long enough. Because people are squishy. A 10" blade is not needed.


drop bear said:


> To fiddly.


I have no idea what that means.


drop bear said:


> They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.


Nope. They do exactly the amount of damage I want.


drop bear said:


> So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.
> 
> Bit if you really want that guy to stop fighting you. Him dying 15 minutes later isn't really going to help you right now.


Like any other tool or technique, effectiveness varies. If it's not effective, you probably did it wrong. I am quite confident that if I want to use a knife to make you stop attacking me right now, I can. Or I can shoot you. That works too.


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## geezer (May 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> To small. To fiddly. They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.
> 
> So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.
> 
> Bit if you really want that guy to stop fighting you. Him dying 15 minutes later isn't really going to help you right now.a


So you’d advocate carrying something larger and more immediately lethal? A sword, perhaps?

 Perfectly legal where I live. But kinda awkward, and people would constantly be asking about it.


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## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

geezer said:


> So you’d advocate carrying something larger and more immediately lethal? A sword, perhaps?
> 
> Perfectly legal where I live. But kinda awkward, and people would constantly be asking about it.



A bat or a sap or a tazer or mace. Or even a decently applies choke. Something that is more likely to stop the guy. 

And something I would get in less trouble for. 

Knives illustrate the difference between killing and stopping. I don't care if they die. I want to break their current action. And I want to do it right now.


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## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No they're not. My usual carry knife these days is either a Microtech Ultratech which has a 3.35" blade, or a Benchmade Infidel with a 3.95" blade. Either is plenty long enough. Because people are squishy. A 10" blade is not needed.
> 
> I have no idea what that means.
> 
> ...



There is a lot of back of house needed to understand knives for self defence. My post was basically just cover notes.


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## Argus (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What reasons?



Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting, and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found liner locks to fail and close on my fingers during partner practice, especially if any twisting movement occurs) and likely to close on your hand, extremely difficult to open under stress, and often carried in the front pocket which tends to "seal up" when you lower your center of gravity or step backwards or to the side in response to a threat, especially with jeans pockets that are cut horizontally and not vertically (I use this "sealing up" to my advantage when camping/bushcrafting, as you do a lot of squatting. I hate vertical pockets because everything falls out of your pockets the moment you squat. I've had stuff falling out of my pockets left and right wearing fancy outdoor pants, which must be designed by somebody who's never actually worn them outdoors before...).

I've trained to deploy folders under pressure extensively, and it's just really, really difficult and unreliable. I think a lot of people get good at reaching into their pocket and flicking their knife open, and think they're set, but it becomes ten times harder to do when someone is actually coming at you with their own knife. In such training, I've honestly had far more success just responding empty handed, or with other handier implements, such as throwing my hat in the attacker's face, or accessing a pen in my front shirt pocket.

Another thing to consider is that knives have a somewhat narrow potential role in self defense. The only time, as I understand it, that you would be justified in using one is in response to a lethal threat. Most of the time, that lethal threat is going to be a fire-arm. Occasionally, it might be another knife. Either way, you're looking at knife versus knife, or perhaps more likely, knife versus gun, and neither of those are particularly appealing prospects. If you're going to carry a lethal weapon, a fire-arm is a much more prudent choice.

The damage that knives do also just look really bad. It may be irrational, or unfair, but I think juries are much more friendly to the idea that you shot or clubbed someone in self defense rather than cutting them. I admit that I have no evidence to back up this perception, though.

Batons, or fixed blades, fall in-between folding knives and fire-arms, and I would consider more practical, especially if carried in the belt where they can be much more reliably accessed.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

geezer said:


> So you’d advocate carrying something larger and more immediately lethal? A sword, perhaps?
> 
> Perfectly legal where I live. But kinda awkward, and people would constantly be asking about it.



The answer is always smatchet.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Anyway this is the fiddly argument against folding knives.


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## Argus (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Anyway this is the fiddly argument against folding knives.


And, as I said, have them deploy while moving out of the way of / parrying an incoming attack, and they likely won't even be able to get the folder out of their pocket. Not saying that some people can't, but even with extensive training, it's difficult and fiddly.

I like the design of the knife in the video, by the way.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Argus said:


> And, as I said, have them deploy while moving out of the way of / parrying an incoming attack, and they likely won't even be able to get the folder out of their pocket. Not saying that some people can't, but even with extensive training, it's difficult and fiddly.
> 
> I like the design of the knife in the video, by the way.



There are a lot of theories on knife defence and I tend to take all of it with a grain of salt because there is almost nobody who has knifed enough guys to be considered an expert.

And look. I find the ideas behind it fun. But I am probably never going to need it.

Anyway there is a trend with these little defensive knives that lean towards horribly expensive for what they are trying to do. Benchmade do one. Shiv works do one. And have a cool wrestling based knife system that looks fun.

Personally I like the le duck or le hawk? Because they are cheap. Although the sheath is supposed to fall apart or something. I don't know I don't own one. 





And I would still go that whip I mentioned because I don’t see anyone running in to that if it gets going.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.


Maybe, maybe not.  Impact weapons should impact.  Blunt force trauma is what makes the grade, not stinging raps that raise a welt.  That's for training.



eskrima88 said:


> Oddly, my community allows concealed carry of blades, with certain limitations, but not batons. I am comfortable wielding a blade, but preferred the reach and relative non-lethality of an impact weapon.


If your impact weapon doesn't have the capacity for lethality then it's not particularly useful.  If it can't break bones then, frankly, you're just hoping that a little bit of pain or bravado will make the attacker go away and you can't depend on that.

If you really want a decent impact weapon that you can carry and nobody questions, carry a cane.  Go get a cheap "stock cane" from a feed store, they're usually hickory, and carry that.  Nobody questions it at all.  I've flown with canes and gone through DC security with them.

Or if you want a quality workmanship hickory cane at a good price, I can recommend Medlin's Good Wood.  





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eskrima88 said:


> Another thing I am considering--an aluminum water bottle. I have one that makes an excellent weapon, the only drawback being the less than ideal handhold.


They're better than harsh words, but, yes, they're hard to hold and half the time they're empty or half empty, making them far less useful as an impact tool.

If you are really interested in less-lethal options, the absolute, hands down, best record of success goes to pepper spray.  There have been a number of studies comparing outcomes using less-lethal options and, of all of them, pepper spray has the best track record.  ...which is still not 100%.  Depending on the study, success ranges from somewhere around 65-ish% to up around 90%.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> A bat or a sap or a tazer or mace.


Carrying around a baseball bat?  That's going to get you noticed and not in a good way.
A sap is often illegal, at least here in the U.S.  
Tazer's are cool and I really want them to work better than they actually do.  But their actual track record is not as good as you'd want.  Depending on the study, it's usually north of 50%. ...usually.
Mace?  Well, pepper spray I'm assuming.  Pepper spray is actually a pretty good option for less-lethal response.  It has a pretty decent track record of success.  




drop bear said:


> And something I would get in less trouble for.
> 
> Knives illustrate the difference between killing and stopping. I don't care if they die. I want to break their current action. And I want to do it right now.


These things are hardly mutually exclusive.  Honestly, there's essentially no legal difference here in the U.S. between using a baseball bat, a hammer, or a knife.  It's all, legally, potentially lethal.  The only difference is about 70 years worth of international propaganda that knives are exclusivly the tools of criminals.  Set aside the "social" aspect of "how the general public thinks about it" and knives are no different than any other tool capable of lethality.

Pace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> To small. To fiddly. They do too much damage and don't really do the thing you want them to do.


I disagree.  They're quite capable of doing the thing you want them to.  I.E.: make the bad guy stop doing whatever it was that was threatening your life.  Um... you *are* only using a weapon response to someone actually threatening you with death or serious bodily harm, right?  I mean, legally speaking, you can't club someone upside the head with an expanding baton, baseball bat, or a sap and claim it's "non-lethal."




drop bear said:


> So you can say stab a guy and he may wander off and die in a pool of blood 15 minutes later.


Or you can stab a guy and he bleeds out in 30 seconds.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

Argus said:


> Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting,


Buy better quality knives.  Spend more than $20 at the hardware store.



Argus said:


> and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found liner locks to fail and close on my fingers during partner practice, especially if any twisting movement occurs) and likely to close on your hand, extremely difficult to open under stress, and often carried in the front pocket which tends to "seal up" when you lower your center of gravity or step backwards or to the side in response to a threat, especially with jeans pockets that are cut horizontally and not vertically (I use this "sealing up" to my advantage when camping/bushcrafting, as you do a lot of squatting. I hate vertical pockets because everything falls out of your pockets the moment you squat. I've had stuff falling out of my pockets left and right wearing fancy outdoor pants, which must be designed by somebody who's never actually worn them outdoors before...).


If your carry method drops your carried item, then your carry method sucks.  Don't do it that way.  If the pockets in your pants don't work, then you need different pants with different pockets.



Argus said:


> I've trained to deploy folders under pressure extensively, and it's just really, really difficult and unreliable.


No offense but if so, then you need better training.  Honestly, humans have been doing this reliably for, literally, a couple of centuries now.  I can personally document using folders for fighting as far back as 1827 and almost certainly much earlier (that's just the first one which comes to mind), along with the challenges of deploying folders as opposed to fixed blades.   The 1849 Manual Del Baratero has a pretty in-depth discussion of using a folding knife for fighting.  I mean, the challenges you're discussing aren't exactly new information and humans have had a really long time to solve them.



Argus said:


> I think a lot of people get good at reaching into their pocket and flicking their knife open, and think they're set, but it becomes ten times harder to do when someone is actually coming at you with their own knife.


Everything becomes harder during adrenal stress.  Whether your trying to deploy against another knife, a baseball bat, or a mob of ninjas is irrelevant.



Argus said:


> Another thing to consider is that knives have a somewhat narrow potential role in self defense. The only time, as I understand it, that you would be justified in using one is in response to a lethal threat.


That's the only time you're legally justified in deploying *ANY* weapon capable of death or sever injury, including baseball bats, hammers, guns, canes, flagpoles, and umbrellas.

Look, I know that there's a century-long propaganda campaign against knives for self defense.  But, honestly, they're no different from any other weapon.  If you use a hammer that can smash a person's head in, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking.  If you jam the ferrule of an umbrella into someone's stomach, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking.  The tool doesn't matter.



Argus said:


> Most of the time, that lethal threat is going to be a fire-arm.


I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  The sum-total of lethal-force attacks from categories not involving firearms, which include hammers, fists, feet, knives, screwdrivers, ball bats, etc., far exceed threats with guns.



Argus said:


> Occasionally, it might be another knife. Either way, you're looking at knife versus knife, or perhaps more likely, knife versus gun, and neither of those are particularly appealing prospects.


Again, that's not actually true. There are a ton of different lethal threats, including the OP's "collapsible baton."  



Argus said:


> If you're going to carry a lethal weapon, a fire-arm is a much more prudent choice.


I more-or-less agree.  ...if carrying a firearm is an option for you.  For many people it isn't.  I'm a fan of firearms for self defense.  But I worn on base.  I cannot carry a firearm there.  So options two through four become much more attractive.

Besides, who says you can only carry one thing?



Argus said:


> The damage that knives do also just look really bad. It may be irrational, or unfair, but I think juries are much more friendly to the idea that you shot or clubbed someone in self defense rather than cutting them. I admit that I have no evidence to back up this perception, though.


Well, there has been a prolonged anti-knife campaign going back to at least the 1920s.  I'm not sure how effective it has been on the legal front (trials) but I know it's been effective at shaping the general opinion of the public.



Argus said:


> Batons, or fixed blades, fall in-between folding knives and fire-arms,


How so?



Argus said:


> and I would consider more practical, especially if carried in the belt where they can be much more reliably accessed.


I'm not sure what you mean.  I might agree but I would like a bit more description on what you mean here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

Argus said:


> Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting, and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found liner locks to fail and close on my fingers during partner practice, especially if any twisting movement occurs) and likely to close on your hand, extremely difficult to open under stress, and often carried in the front pocket which tends to "seal up" when you lower your center of gravity or step backwards or to the side in response to a threat, especially with jeans pockets that are cut horizontally and not vertically (I use this "sealing up" to my advantage when camping/bushcrafting, as you do a lot of squatting. I hate vertical pockets because everything falls out of your pockets the moment you squat. I've had stuff falling out of my pockets left and right wearing fancy outdoor pants, which must be designed by somebody who's never actually worn them outdoors before...).


There are really really simple answers to all of this.
Stop buying crappy knives. A poor lock is one of the cardinal signs of a crappy knife.
I agree that front pocket carry can be problematic. So stop carrying it there.
Buy a decent knife. With a clip. Put it in your hip pocket. Or inside your waistband clipped to your belt.
Basically, none of these are reasons not to carry a knife. They are reasons to carry a good knife properly.


Argus said:


> I've trained to deploy folders under pressure extensively, and it's just really, really difficult and unreliable. I think a lot of people get good at reaching into their pocket and flicking their knife open, and think they're set, but it becomes ten times harder to do when someone is actually coming at you with their own knife. In such training, I've honestly had far more success just responding empty handed, or with other handier implements, such as throwing my hat in the attacker's face, or accessing a pen in my front shirt pocket.


So that's a "you" thing, not a knife thing.


Argus said:


> Another thing to consider is that knives have a somewhat narrow potential role in self defense. The only time, as I understand it, that you would be justified in using one is in response to a lethal threat. Most of the time, that lethal threat is going to be a fire-arm. Occasionally, it might be another knife. Either way, you're looking at knife versus knife, or perhaps more likely, knife versus gun, and neither of those are particularly appealing prospects. If you're going to carry a lethal weapon, a fire-arm is a much more prudent choice.


If you're in a fight with anything vs a weapon, you're going to have a bad day. However, based on 40+ years in the ER and coming from a family of cops, and stats from the FBI, this is incorrect. Blunt weapons (hands, feet, clubs, hammers, baseball bats, golf clubs, whatever) account for 57.9% of assaults. If we ignore the body-weaponry, and stick to just things people pick up, that's still 31.4%. Body weapons, then, are 26.6%. Firearms of any kind are 24.2%, and sharp objects of any kind are 18.1%.
So the odds of a knife or a gun being used against you are very similar. But you're more likely to be assaulted with a blunt object, clearly. So... no. What you're saying is incorrect. If you're involved in an assault, the odds definitely favor a blunt weapon being involved.



Argus said:


> Batons, or fixed blades, fall in-between folding knives and fire-arms, and I would consider more practical, especially if carried in the belt where they can be much more reliably accessed.


So put your knife (a good one, not the junk you've used) in your belt. Right next to your gun. Because options are good.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> These things are hardly mutually exclusive. Honestly, there's essentially no legal difference here in the U.S. between using a baseball bat, a hammer, or a knife. It's all, legally, potentially lethal. The only difference is about 70 years worth of international propaganda that knives are exclusivly the tools of criminals. Set aside the "social" aspect of "how the general public thinks about it" and knives are no different than any other tool capable of lethality.
> 
> Pace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Not necessarily about the legality. I don't want to have to continue to fight the guy until he dies.


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## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not necessarily about the legality. I don't want to have to continue to fight the guy until he dies.


At this point we're not caring if he dies.  We just want him to stop doing what ever it is that he was doing that made us deploy a weapon to defend ourselves (threatening our lives).  It's not about killing, it's about stopping.  Unfortunately for bad guys, often one of the most effective way of stopping can lead to their dying.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not necessarily about the legality. I don't want to have to continue to fight the guy until he dies.


Neither does the person with the gun/knife/baseball bat/tank/RPG/whatever.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> At this point we're not caring if he dies.  We just want him to stop doing what ever it is that he was doing that made us deploy a weapon to defend ourselves (threatening our lives).  It's not about killing, it's about stopping.  Unfortunately for bad guys, often one of the most effective way of stopping can lead to their dying.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Well not really
I could for example choke a guy unconscious more quickly than you could knife a guy unconscious.

It takes forever to stab a guy until he looses the ability to fight back.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Neither does the person with the gun/knife/baseball bat/tank/RPG/whatever.



Not really.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> That's the only time you're legally justified in deploying *ANY* weapon capable of death or sever injury, including baseball bats, hammers, guns, canes, flagpoles, and umbrellas.



You don't think you could smack a guy with an umbrella under a lot less dire circumstances than you could if you stabbed someone?


----------



## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Well not really
> I could for example choke a guy unconscious more quickly than you could knife a guy unconscious.


Depends on where the cut is.  Both work under the same base physiological theory: deny blood pressure to the brain.  Anything that prevents blood flow at the same rate as a blood-choke works just as quickly.  There are several major arteries near the surface that could suffice and don't require the defender to be in body contact with someone struggling and flailing, while potentially holding a weapon.

Don't misunderstand, I love blood-chokes.  They're just not the end-all, be-all of self-defense, particularly in comparison to weapons.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You don't think you could smack a guy with an umbrella under a lot less dire circumstances than you could if you stabbed someone?


It's not about what I "think."  It's about what the weapon is capable of.  If you stab someone with an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon.  If you bash someone upside the head with the blunt end of an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Neither does the person with the gun/knife/baseball bat/tank/RPG/whatever.





drop bear said:


> Not really.


That's just ridiculous. 

We're in a fight. I grab a stick and whack you in the ribs. You back off. You're not dead. You're probably not even broken. Fight over.

We're in a fight. You grab me and I poke you in the arm with a knife. You back off. You've got a superficial puncture would that needs a good wash out and maybe a couple stitches. You're not dead. Fight over.

We're in a fight. You grab me. I choose not to even draw my knife or gun, but instead break your grip and give you a few whacks with my hands and feet. You back off. You're not dead, probably not seriously injured. Fight over.

There is nothing that requires an armed person to fight to the death. If anything, the armed person has MORE options. Because I can do unarmed things too. But you cannot do armed things. Unless you're armed.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> It's not about what I "think."  It's about what the weapon is capable of.  If you stab someone with an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon.  If you bash someone upside the head with the blunt end of an umbrella, it's a deadly weapon.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Yeah. This is your 2A Avenger coming out. Not everything is going to kill you. 

You are not going to kill someone hitting in the head with an umbrella that's ridiculous. You could hurt them enough to run away. And mark then with a welt so the cops can find them. And that is about it.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's just ridiculous.
> 
> We're in a fight. I grab a stick and whack you in the ribs. You back off. You're not dead. You're probably not even broken. Fight over.
> 
> ...



We are in a fight you stab me I don't back of and you have to kill me to stop me. By this time I am in range to grab you so you have to keep stabbing me. Which doesn't work that quickly. 

I hit you with a bat I create space. Which is enough time to run away.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. This is your 2A Avenger coming out. Not everything is going to kill you.
> 
> You are not going to kill someone hitting in the head with an umbrella that's ridiculous. You could hurt them enough to run away. And mark then with a welt so the cops can find them. And that is about it.











						Beach-lovers beware: Umbrellas injure thousands a year
					

Improperly installed beach umbrellas have sent more than 30,000 people to US hospitals in a decade.



					www.bbc.com
				




And those are accidents. Not wielded with intention.









						Top 10 Horrifying Deaths By Umbrella - Listverse
					

The past is filled with curious stories about umbrellas. For example, in 1911, a man picked up a dropped umbrella inside a church in Paris. He noticed the




					listverse.com
				




All old cases, because let's be real. Nobody really carries an umbrella these days. 
Clearly, thrusting makes the umbrella strikes more effective. But that is true of almost all striking weapons.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> We are in a fight you stab me I don't back of and you have to kill me to stop me. By this time I am in range to grab you so you have to keep stabbing me. Which doesn't work that quickly.


Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.


drop bear said:


> I hit you with a bat I create space. Which is enough time to run away.


You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?


----------



## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. This is your 2A Avenger coming out. Not everything is going to kill you.


Why the frag would I deploy a deadly force weapon if I'm not facing a threat trying to kill me?  Not only would that be stupid, it's illegal and immoral.

Don't deploy a deadly force weapon unless you are under threat of death or serious bodily injury.



drop bear said:


> You are not going to kill someone hitting in the head with an umbrella that's ridiculous.


Depends on the umbrella.  And if it's not capable of that level of injury, then, frankly, it sucks as a weapon and you should find something that works.



drop bear said:


> You could hurt them enough to run away. And mark then with a welt so the cops can find them. And that is about it.


This whole discussion is predicated on the assumption that you've *already tried to escape* (or couldn't, for reasons), and that didn't work.  If you can escape, then escape.  Duh.


----------



## lklawson (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> We are in a fight you stab me I don't back of and you have to kill me to stop me. By this time I am in range to grab you so you have to keep stabbing me. Which doesn't work that quickly.


Sez who?  I've read military medical reports on the process.  Torso stabs, particularly to lungs and heart area, tend to be lethal and quickly effective.  IMS Hockheim's book digs pretty deep into them.


			Knife / Counter-Knife Combatives book by W. Hock Hochheim
		




drop bear said:


> I hit you with a bat I create space. Which is enough time to run away.


You know, unless your attacker crashes space and gets inside your swing radius.  I mean, it's not like every martial art in the world teach that against a club or anything.

C'mon now, you're just arguing to argue, aren't you.


----------



## Blindside (May 26, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Thanks-- way too big and heavy. The hiking poles are featherweight by comparison.


How light a stick are you looking for and how long?  As a point of comparison a "typical" for lack of better work escrima stick runs about 8 ounces/230 grams.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Sez who? I've read military medical reports on the process. Torso stabs, particularly to lungs and heart area, tend to be lethal and quickly effective. IMS Hockheim's book digs pretty deep into them.
> Knife / Counter-Knife Combatives book by W. Hock Hochheim



That isn't a military medical report.

I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Why the frag would I deploy a deadly force weapon if I'm not facing a threat trying to kill me? Not only would that be stupid, it's illegal and immoral.
> 
> Don't deploy a deadly force weapon unless you are under threat of death or serious bodily injury.



So therefore everything even an umbrella becomes a deadly threat. I have heard the spiel


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> You know, unless your attacker crashes space and gets inside your swing radius. I mean, it's not like every martial art in the world teach that against a club or anything.
> 
> C'mon now, you're just arguing to argue, aren't you



But then he trips over cracking his head leaving me time to escape. 

Come to me with something concrete and you will get something concrete.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Depends on the umbrella. And if it's not capable of that level of injury, then, frankly, it sucks as a weapon and you should find something that works.



Lol. No. That is just crazy talk again. You are subscribing to a bunch of hype you get sold about fights being all sorts of life and death all the time.

It's a marketing ploy. Not real.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.
> 
> You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?



Nobody is providing evidence about anything. Why would I start now.


----------



## Dirty Dog (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That isn't a military medical report.
> 
> I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.


Which proves nothing, even if true. I've seen a guy shot point blank in the head with a .45ACP and walk away. I still don't recommend it. 
A "sucking chest wound" sounds impressive. And it can be horrific, with damage to the lung parenchyma, damage to arteries and veins, damage to the heart itself... But it can also be a minor thing that penetrated the chest cavity without damaging anything.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Lol. No. That is just crazy talk again. You are subscribing to a bunch of hype you get sold about fights being all sorts of life and death all the time.
> 
> It's a marketing ploy. Not real.


I looked up people dying/killed from umbrella's just out of curiosity. If you take out the people that died from a lightning strike while holding an umbrella, I found 3 cases of people dying by umbrella attack. One involved a poison dart hidden in an umbrella (it seems like that one might have happened a couple times), the next wasn't an attack, but a lady getting crushed by one of those giant beach umbrellas (I don't think it'd be feasible for someone to carry it), and a third where someone got killed with a normal umbrella. Umbrella killer Gerald Rowatt admits attack in prison
If you read that article, the umbrella wasn't capable of killing the person by bashing. He tried that first, his umbrella broke, then he stabbed the broken shaft into the guys neck, which is what killed him.

Finally, I found two failed attempts. One where the guy got stabbed by an umbrella, and did not die, and another where someone was bashed in the head multiple times with an umbrella, and also did not die (linking that one because it's relevant, but you'd have to either pay or know a way to bypass a paywall to actually read the full article, which as a moderator here I do not condone) Here

So ultimately, I did not find any cases supporting that you can kill someone by bashing them with an umbrella-which I would expect at least a few cases of given how prominent umbrellas are by people walking alone-and instead I found cases of the umbrella not being strong enough to do exactly that, but it working after it was essentially turned into a knife (and then took a few minutes for the victim to bleed out). 

As close to an objective review I could take, and ultimately not too relevant, _but_ since it seems an umbrella is unable to take kill someone or even knock them out, I get the feeling a lightweight baton (that from OP's requests would have to weigh equal to or less than an umbrella) would also not be particularly effective, especially since they don't have the stabbing capabilities other weapons do.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I looked up people dying/killed from umbrella's just out of curiosity. If you take out the people that died from a lightning strike while holding an umbrella, I found 3 cases of people dying by umbrella attack. One involved a poison dart hidden in an umbrella (it seems like that one might have happened a couple times), the next wasn't an attack, but a lady getting crushed by one of those giant beach umbrellas (I don't think it'd be feasible for someone to carry it), and a third where someone got killed with a normal umbrella. Umbrella killer Gerald Rowatt admits attack in prison
> If you read that article, the umbrella wasn't capable of killing the person by bashing. He tried that first, his umbrella broke, then he stabbed the broken shaft into the guys neck, which is what killed him.
> 
> Finally, I found two failed attempts. One where the guy got stabbed by an umbrella, and did not die, and another where someone was bashed in the head multiple times with an umbrella, and also did not die (linking that one because it's relevant, but you'd have to either pay or know a way to bypass a paywall to actually read the full article, which as a moderator here I do not condone) Here
> ...



Still going to hurt though. Which may be the path OP wants to take. 

Like giving someone a slap to send them a message.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Which proves nothing, even if true. I've seen a guy shot point blank in the head with a .45ACP and walk away. I still don't recommend it.
> A "sucking chest wound" sounds impressive. And it can be horrific, with damage to the lung parenchyma, damage to arteries and veins, damage to the heart itself... But it can also be a minor thing that penetrated the chest cavity without damaging anything.



Nobody is proving anything. I mean you get that as part of this discussion right?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.
> 
> While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.
> 
> ...


I think this idea is taught too often without enough consideration in the self-defense circles. Say you hit someone with a solid shot, but (given a lightweight weapon) not doing any serious damage. Now you run. They do, too, because you've done nothing to incapacitate them. If you're going to use a striking weapon to create an exit, it needs to be able to incapacitate or stun. Anything less, and you're just using it to try to make them want to stay a step back, which likely won't work if they're committed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Maybe, maybe not.  Impact weapons should impact.  Blunt force trauma is what makes the grade, not stinging raps that raise a welt.  That's for training.
> 
> 
> If your impact weapon doesn't have the capacity for lethality then it's not particularly useful.  If it can't break bones then, frankly, you're just hoping that a little bit of pain or bravado will make the attacker go away and you can't depend on that.
> ...


And pepper spray - when it works reasonably well - fits the "defend and run" need quite nicely. Even if they are still coming, if their eyes are watering, you've got a better chance of escape. And if they pause even just a moment at the pain, all the better.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So therefore everything even an umbrella becomes a deadly threat. I have heard the spiel


I think in part you guys are dealing with a difference in legal systems. In the US, if you use something that can potentially be lethal in some reasonable way, it's often viewed as a lethal weapon, as I understand it.


----------



## lklawson (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That isn't a military medical report.


I didn't say that it was.



drop bear said:


> I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.


That's nice.


----------



## lklawson (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> So therefore everything even an umbrella becomes a deadly threat. I have heard the spiel


But you didn't listen very well apparently.


----------



## lklawson (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But then he trips over cracking his head leaving me time to escape.
> 
> Come to me with something concrete and you will get something concrete.


Seriously?


----------



## lklawson (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Still going to hurt though. Which may be the path OP wants to take.
> 
> Like giving someone a slap to send them a message.


Did you really just advocate slap fighting as a viable method of self defense?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think in part you guys are dealing with a difference in legal systems. In the US, if you use something that can potentially be lethal in some reasonable way, it's often viewed as a lethal weapon, as I understand it.


It's marketing. Every bad guy wants to kill you but every bad guy can also be stopped with just 3 easy moves. 

It is pretty standard.


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Seriously?



Yes seriously.

The ,what I would do in a knife fight, is fun and all but hardly based in reality. And if you were being serious then you need more insight on the topic.


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Did you really just advocate slap fighting as a viable method of self defense?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA



Yes.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No they're not. My usual carry knife these days is either a Microtech Ultratech which has a 3.35" blade, or a Benchmade Infidel with a 3.95" blade. Either is plenty long enough. Because people are squishy. A 10" blade is not needed.
> 
> I have no idea what that means.
> 
> ...


Good taste. Ultratech is top notch. I have one. I recommend checking out the ”pacific” by Chris Reeve. It is my favorite fixed blade for overall utility.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 27, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.
> 
> You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?


97,183 people were killed with knives worldwide in 2017 accounting for around 22% of homicides. Nearly 40% of homicides in Europe were committed using a knife that year. Clearly, some people are using them effectively. It is worth noting that Homicide rates in the Americas were 31 per 100,000 as opposed to 9 per100,000 globally, with Australia coming in at 0.8 per 100,000. This may account for some differences of opinion in this particular part of this particular discussion.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Lol. No. That is just crazy talk again. You are subscribing to a bunch of hype you get sold about fights being all sorts of life and death all the time.
> 
> It's a marketing ploy. Not real.


See post #67


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> That isn't a military medical report.
> 
> I dealt with a guy who was walking around with a sucking chest wound for ten minutes from a knife before he went in to shock.


True, no guarantees. I have friend who was shot 7 times with 7.62x39mm with 3 to the thorax, 3 to the right arm and one in left hip. He survived after his buddy helped him walk 120 yards to get to a helicopter. I have another friend who was stabbed 11 times by 3 assailants. There was a significant size difference, however, the much larger victim survived after just washout and sutures, the three assailants were all hospitalized with serious injuries including broken bones. Sometimes the bad guy really does want to kill you, sometimes that happens more often depending on your global location.


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> True, no guarantees. I have friend who was shot 7 times with 7.62x39mm with 3 to the thorax, 3 to the right arm and one in left hip. He survived after his buddy helped him walk 120 yards to get to a helicopter. I have another friend who was stabbed 11 times by 3 assailants. There was a significant size difference, however, the much larger victim survived after just washout and sutures, the three assailants were all hospitalized with serious injuries including broken bones. Sometimes the bad guy really does want to kill you, sometimes that happens more often depending on your global location.



My theory is if I belt someone in the head. They will possibly be much more likely to stop for a second. Then I run away. 

Even with a light bat or a whip. 

I mean there is no reason I couldn't carry a knife as well. And stab them if I got all stabby minded. 

Or even both and utilise a spadi daga style set up. 

Like ogers self defence has layers.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> My theory is if I belt someone in the head. They will possibly be much more likely to stop for a second. Then I run away.
> 
> Even with a light bat or a whip.
> 
> ...


I agree, best martial art is running away. Layer #1.


----------



## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I agree, best martial art is running away. Layer #1.



The concept OP seems to be going for is more of a whip than a heavy baton. And they get used a bit differently for different effects.

So if we think defensive whip. We can start to get an idea of what OP possibly wants to achieve with his lightweight batting.

I mean if I slash at you with a hiking pole. It is going to create a barrier which you will be loathe to enter.

So looking at defensive whips. They really were considered self defence items.

Here is the biker. Or get back whip.






I know a chillian friend of mine and they used to carry a hose(apparently they have really crappy thin rubber hoses over there) fill it with sand and belt people with that. Indian police were using canes to belt people who were not masked at one stage. The gublai gang? Not sure if they went for canes or bats.(a mix and match apparently)





 The sambock which is a stiff whip used in Africa.

I mean it is not unheard of as a concept.

Riding crop used in something something.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The concept OP seems to be going for is more of a whip than a heavy baton. And they get used a bit differently for different effects.
> 
> So if we think defensive whip. We can start to get an idea of what OP possibly wants to achieve with his lightweight batting.
> 
> ...


I have seen a belt used to good effect in a 1 vs 2 which occurred in a grocery store. The user looked to be proficient. I’m mostly a CMA guy though, so what would I know about belts?


----------



## drop bear (May 28, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have seen a belt used to good effect in a 1 vs 2 which occurred in a grocery store. The user looked to be proficient. I’m mostly a CMA guy though, so what would I know about belts?



Because sashes?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Because sashes?


Don’t use those either. The old old guys like Lau Bun used to wear the girdle, but my Sifu didn’t.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (May 29, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Because sashes?


We don’t do the gi or flashy uniforms.


----------



## Argus (May 30, 2022)

lklawson said:


> Buy better quality knives.  Spend more than $20 at the hardware store.


Fair point. My teacher had a select few that he recommended that were actually sturdy and had a more robust locking mechanism.



lklawson said:


> If your carry method drops your carried item, then your carry method sucks.  Don't do it that way.  If the pockets in your pants don't work, then you need different pants with different pockets.


You're contradicting yourself a bit here. My point was that horizontally cut pockets are great for keeping items from dropping out of your pockets, because they close up if you sit, squat, or in any way lower your center of gravity and bend your knees/legs at the hip. For this reason they're great at being pockets, but are a horrible place to keep any weapon that you intend to be able to access. Either you wear pockets that allow the contents to just dump out, or you wear pockets that seal up the moment you lower your center of gravity, making anything inside very difficult to access. And are you really going to, say, throw out all of your pants except a select few with specifically cut pockets?

So, to me, pocket carry is something to be avoided in general.


lklawson said:


> No offense but if so, then you need better training.  Honestly, humans have been doing this reliably for, literally, a couple of centuries now.  I can personally document using folders for fighting as far back as 1827 and almost certainly much earlier (that's just the first one which comes to mind), along with the challenges of deploying folders as opposed to fixed blades.   The 1849 Manual Del Baratero has a pretty in-depth discussion of using a folding knife for fighting.  I mean, the challenges you're discussing aren't exactly new information and humans have had a really long time to solve them.


No offense, but maybe you need this training. I mean, I don't know you -- maybe you can access a folding knife in your pocket while moving out of the way and parrying an incoming weapon, but... if you speak so lightly of it, I am skeptical. If you watched the video that drop bear posted in which a guy, very well trained, deployed his folding knife under ideal circumstances, standing straight up and facing an inanimate target (a balloon), he drew, deployed it, and stabbed pretty much as efficiently as anyone can expect to do, and it still took about 2.4 seconds, if I recall. I'm sure you can imagine just how many stabs and cuts your opponent can deliver within that time frame. 

I'm serious. Try this against someone who is coming at you with repeated thrusts and/or cuts while you try to deploy your knife. It is extremely difficult to deploy a folder from your pocket, even if you've poured many hours of practice into this. Maybe you have, and I've got no doubt that some people are good enough to pull it off -- one of my teachers was. But, he was also someone who I would consider to be one of the top Martial Artists on the planet, and lives and breathes his art.

Anyway, I'll look into the Historical sources you mention. I'm sure pocket design plays a big role into how well this does or doesn't work, and I'm curious if pocket carry Historically was any different -- ie, something like a vest pocket would be far more accessible, I would think.



lklawson said:


> Everything becomes harder during adrenal stress.  Whether your trying to deploy against another knife, a baseball bat, or a mob of ninjas is irrelevant.


My point is to actually try it. Like I said, I put considerable effort into practicing this and, while I won't say it is "not viable ever and for anyone," my conclusion is that most people would be well advised to adopt a different method of carry.



lklawson said:


> That's the only time you're legally justified in deploying *ANY* weapon capable of death or sever injury, including baseball bats, hammers, guns, canes, flagpoles, and umbrellas.


Umm, I get that...



lklawson said:


> Look, I know that there's a century-long propaganda campaign against knives for self defense.  But, honestly, they're no different from any other weapon.  If you use a hammer that can smash a person's head in, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking.  If you jam the ferrule of an umbrella into someone's stomach, that's considered lethal force, legally speaking.  The tool doesn't matter.


I totally agree. And I don't like the aforementioned propaganda campaign. I'm just being realistic, or perhaps a bit pessimistic here, in that I don't trust that the law will be applied in an entirely objective and logical manner. Propaganda is a powerful force, and while our legal systems are still mostly sound, it's the case that, more and more, people seek political rather than legal outcomes.



lklawson said:


> I'm sorry, but that's just not true.  The sum-total of lethal-force attacks from categories not involving firearms, which include hammers, fists, feet, knives, screwdrivers, ball bats, etc., far exceed threats with guns.
> 
> 
> Again, that's not actually true. There are a ton of different lethal threats, including the OP's "collapsible baton."


This I'll readily admit -- I didn't have any numbers to back up my perception, so I shouldn't have claimed such.

I have to chuckle a bit at categorizing the OP's ultralight "collapsible baton" as a "lethal threat" though.



lklawson said:


> Besides, who says you can only carry one thing?


Very fair point. I just don't want people to have false confidence in a method of carry, and a tool, which they don't appreciate the limitations of.



lklawson said:


> How so?
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean.  I might agree but I would like a bit more description on what you mean here.
> ...


Fixed blades and batons are generally carried on or inside the belt, which is much more accessible (even if concealed) than a pocket, in my experience. They're also sturdier, easier to deploy (especially in the case of the fixed blade), and have longer reach (in the case of the baton, at least. The fixed blade potentially as well, but I suppose it depends on local laws). In short, I just see them as simpler, sturdier, more reliable, and more accessible options. A folding knife is more of a utility implement that is typically not designed for, or carried in a manner which lends itself to use as a weapon.

But again, I am speaking in broad, general strokes. You can find any number of specific instances where I'm wrong in regards to this particular knife, mode of carry, or highly trained practitioner, but on the average, I think my points stand (except where I made clearly inaccurate statements, such as the prevalence of gun vs knife encounters. My bad).


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2022)

Argus said:


> Fair point. My teacher had a select few that he recommended that were actually sturdy and had a more robust locking mechanism.



It isn’t really about price by the way. A thousand dollar liner lock is still a liner lock.

You can get a cold steel triad lock in just about every size and shape for not that much money.  And they are possibly the most solid lock you can get. (Barring a few specialist knives)


Take for example a cold steel recon. Which i believe are generally pretty cheap.(sorry voyager is the cheaper one)






It holds up really well considering the guy testing it is kind of a mental case.


----------



## drop bear (May 30, 2022)

Argus said:


> You're contradicting yourself a bit here. My point was that horizontally cut pockets are great for keeping items from dropping out of your pockets, because they close up if you sit, squat, or in any way lower your center of gravity and bend your knees/legs at the hip. For this reason they're great at being pockets, but are a horrible place to keep any weapon that you intend to be able to access. Either you wear pockets that allow the contents to just dump out, or you wear pockets that seal up the moment you lower your center of gravity, making anything inside very difficult to access. And are you really going to, say, throw out all of your pants except a select few with specifically cut pockets?



We are talking about a knife in a pocket with a pocket clip? Or just jammed all the way in there under your keys or something. 

I ride a motorbike for a living and can get to my utility knife from that position reasonably ok.


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## Dirty Dog (May 30, 2022)

Argus said:


> No offense, but maybe you need this training. I mean, I don't know you --


Maybe you should read some of the books Kirk has written or contributed to... He's a subject-matter expert.


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## geezer (May 30, 2022)

Argus said:


> I am skeptical. If you watched the video that drop bear posted in which a guy, very well trained, deployed his folding knife under ideal circumstances, standing straight up and facing an inanimate target (a balloon), he drew, deployed it, and stabbed pretty much as efficiently as anyone can expect to do, and it still took about 2.4 seconds, if I recall. I'm sure you can imagine just how many stabs and cuts your opponent can deliver within that time frame.
> 
> I'm serious. Try this against someone who is coming at you with repeated thrusts and/or cuts while you try to deploy your knife. It is extremely difficult to deploy a folder from your pocket, even if you've poured many hours of practice into this.


Hey _Argus_, if the quote above is taken to support carrying a fixed blade over a folder _because it can be deployed a little bit faster,_ I remain unconvinced. I mean, is that fraction of a second you _might _save even the issue in self defense situations?

If somebody _suddenly and violently attacks you,_ totally "out of the blue" at very close range --especially with a weapon such as a knife, club, bottle, brick, rock, speeding truck, or handful of dog-poo, I doubt if you will have time to adequately defend yourself regardless of what you are carrying.

Fortunately, other than in an assassination, most people do not attack without giving some warning signs._ Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and retreat/escape _are far more important than what you carry.

...and on the bright side,_ dog-poo_ is rarely fatal!


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## geezer (May 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe you should read some of the books Kirk has written or contributed to... He's a subject-matter expert.


I would take that _not_ as a put-down (of Argus), but as an endorsement of Kirk and his work.


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## Argus (May 30, 2022)

geezer said:


> Hey _Argus_, if the quote above is taken to support carrying a fixed blade over a folder _because it can be deployed a little bit faster,_ I remain unconvinced. I mean, is that fraction of a second you _might _save even the issue in self defense situations?


It makes a big difference in my experience. I can parry and access a pen or fixed blade quickly and reliably under pressure. A folding knife in my pocket, I usually have to with my off hand parry two, three, or four times before I've got it out, if I didn't stumble and miss my pocket, or screw up flicking the knife open. By that time I've usually been overwhelmed by my partner.



geezer said:


> If somebody _suddenly and violently attacks you,_ totally "out of the blue" at very close range --especially with a weapon such as a knife, club, bottle, brick, rock, speeding truck, or handful of dog-poo, I doubt if you will have time to adequately defend yourself regardless of what you are carrying.
> 
> *Fortunately, other than in an assassination, most people do not attack without giving some warning signs.*_ Awareness, avoidance, de-escalation and retreat/escape _are far more important than what you carry.
> 
> ...and on the bright side,_ dog-poo_ is rarely fatal!



This is a very good point that perhaps I'm not weighing enough. Sure, if you have time to see trouble coming and can deploy a folding knife in advance, it's a much more viable tool.

And, as you correctly point out, awareness, avoidance, de-escalation, and retreat/escape are indeed far more important than what you carry.

For the record, it's not actually legal to carry a knife of any significant useful length where I am living now. When I lived in the U.S., I put quite a bit of thought into what I carry, and how I carry it, but it's not something I really think about these days. The very few times I've run into trouble in either country, awareness, avoidance and de-escalation have all served me well and kept me out of any harm or trouble.


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## Argus (May 30, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Maybe you should read some of the books Kirk has written or contributed to... He's a subject-matter expert.



I respect Kirk a lot, though he can come off just a bit condescending at times. I wasn't actually aware he had a book though. Maybe I'll check it out.

I don't give much of any weight to authority during discussions, though. If someone says something that doesn't seem to make sense to me, I'll question it. Expertise doesn't necessarily equate to being right, and certainly not to being right all of the time and on all matters. And by questioning, I learn whether or not I'm wrong, or where I what I might be missing.

So, I often make somewhat assertive statements, but that doesn't mean I'm not humble or looking to learn.


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## Argus (May 30, 2022)

drop bear said:


> We are talking about a knife in a pocket with a pocket clip? Or just jammed all the way in there under your keys or something.
> 
> I ride a motorbike for a living and can get to my utility knife from that position reasonably ok.



Clipped inside the pocket. Even with the knife partially exposed and clipped onto the inside of a jeans pocket, I find it difficult to reliably access once you start moving and lowering your center of gravity.

Usually what I do is use my thumb, pointing down, to index just below my belt, and slide down inside of my pocket (to find my pocket), and then slide back until I feel / find my folding knife, clipped onto my jeans pocket. This is very easy to do when standing up straight, but is much harder when you start moving and lowering your center of gravity (that pocket closes up really well), and even if you wear quite similar jeans all of the time, slight differences in where the pockets are can really mess you up. Add pressure from a training partner actively attacking you, and the difficulty is multiplied ten fold on top of this.

With belt carry, even when concealed/inside the waisteband, it is much easier to access the weapon sufficiently quickly, and most importantly, reliably.

It's important to realize that while you're fiddling around and trying to reach in your pocket, you've got someone coming at you with lethal force and intending to do you serious harm. At that moment, you're putting one hand down and out of action and trying to perform some very complex motor skills under stress, splitting your attention and temporarily handicapping yourself.

Of course, there are ways you can change this dynamic. You can respond with both hands, empty-handed, create space, and then access your weapon, or you can take hold of it before hand if you see trouble coming -- preferably in a way that is neither obvious nor provoking/escalating. If you are deploying it as you are being attacked, however, anything carried in the belt is infinitely easier to access than anything carried inside of, or clipped onto, a front pocket.

Back pockets are somewhat more manageable, but keeping something like a folding knife there isn't the most comfortable or ideal for obvious reasons, and may even be dangerous (as it's much easier for someone to actually pick-pocket it... potentially arming a would-be thief?).

Give it a try with a training partner and I think you'll quickly appreciate my point.


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## lklawson (May 31, 2022)

Argus said:


> Fixed blades and batons are generally carried on or inside the belt, which is much more accessible (even if concealed) than a pocket, in my experience. They're also sturdier, easier to deploy (especially in the case of the fixed blade), and have longer reach (in the case of the baton, at least. The fixed blade potentially as well, but I suppose it depends on local laws). In short, I just see them as simpler, sturdier, more reliable, and more accessible options. A folding knife is more of a utility implement that is typically not designed for, or carried in a manner which lends itself to use as a weapon.


I agree.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (May 31, 2022)

Argus said:


> I respect Kirk a lot, though he can come off just a bit condescending at times.


That's fair.  I write differently than I speak.  When I write, I tend to write much more cerebrally, even though I try to write conversationally.  Further, I kinda gave up taking positions I don't have a very strong reason to do so.  If I state something as a fact, it's because I have a reasoned and evidenced base to draw from.  When it's my opinion or, on the rare occasion if I feel like throwing a Devil's Advocate, I will state that.

So, yeah, if I write something it's because, to the very best of my knowledge, it's factual.  And if someone disagrees with that, then, to the very best of my knowledge, they're disagreeing with facts.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (May 31, 2022)

lklawson said:


> That's fair.  I write differently than I speak.  When I write, I tend to write much more cerebrally, even though I try to write conversationally.  Further, I kinda gave up taking positions I don't have a very strong reason to do so.  If I state something as a fact, it's because I have a reasoned and evidenced base to draw from.  When it's my opinion or, on the rare occasion if I feel like throwing a Devil's Advocate, I will state that.
> 
> So, yeah, if I write something it's because, to the very best of my knowledge, it's factual.  And if someone disagrees with that, then, to the very best of my knowledge, they're disagreeing with facts.
> 
> ...



Wait what?

So fact is your opinion of fact?


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Wait what?
> 
> So fact is your opinion of fact?


Well, he is in fact,  a published expert on his field of study. That should count for something in this instance considering the topic. However, what I think should count is not a factual statement, just pure opinion.


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## drop bear (May 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Well, he is in fact,  a published expert on his field of study. That should count for something in this instance considering the topic. However, what I think should count is not a factual statement, just pure opinion.



Peer reviewed? Or opinion pieces?


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Peer reviewed? Or opinion pieces?


Good question. Ask him. I have one of his books. It is well written, though I have no expertise on the topic. He is a published author and I found his book to be informative. I thought it was superior in content over other authors who wrote on similar topics. Again, only my opinion, which isn’t thoroughly informed.


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## drop bear (May 31, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Good question. Ask him. I have one of his books. It is well written, though I have no expertise on the topic. He is a published author and I found his book to be informative. I thought it was superior in content over other authors who wrote on similar topics. Again, only my opinion, which isn’t thoroughly informed.



Yeah. But self defence is pretty much an opinion based industry.

Take Mark Mcyoung for example.





						Who is Marc Animal MacYoung?
					

And why should we listen to him about stuff like crime prevention, self-defense, defensive tactics and martial arts?



					www.nononsenseselfdefense.com
				




His whole bio is basically a bunch of catch phrases. And he is a published author subject matter expert.


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## Argus (May 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Wait what?
> 
> So fact is your opinion of fact?


He did say "*to the very best of my knowledge*, it's factual"

Honestly, I get where he's coming from.

I was just participating in another discussion on another forum about economics, which I happen have pretty good knowledge of (and I know the extent/limitations of that knowledge). And, I can be rather matter-of-fact in how I discuss that topic. That probably comes off condescending at times, though it's never my intent. At the same time, it can be a bit irksome when some people strongly argue points about a topic that they display ignorance of.

Humility across the board is the way to go. I usually try not to get tripped up over people's attitudes unless it's just getting in the way of having a productive / earnest discussion. And I try to stay open minded, because even the most ignorant or arrogant person occasionally raises a good point, or, more often, prompts me to think about how to better communicate my own point. At the end of the day, the goal is just to get closer to understanding the subject matter at hand, objectively.

I already learned several good things in this thread by sharing my thoughts -- some well reasoned and conceived, and some based in partial ignorance or short-sightedness. If I can reduce the latter by making a fool of myself on occasion, I consider that a win.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 31, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But self defence is pretty much an opinion based industry.
> 
> Take Mark Mcyoung for example.
> 
> ...


Most of what Mr. Lawson writes in the book I have read is based on historical fact with many examples and a good bibliography. I don’t think it’s fair to compare him to this fellow. Again, I am not well informed on the topic. I am in no position to have much of a position beyond benefit of doubt.


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## drop bear (Jun 1, 2022)

But self defence is an opinion based industry. So a well researched expert is the same as a cool sounding one.

And the effect it has is it colours your sources. A person who is legitimate may still be making stuff up to sound cool.


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## isshinryuronin (Jun 1, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Depends on where I stab you. And of course, ignores all the OTHER things I can be doing as well.
> 
> You have evidence to support the claim that being hit with a bat is more and more rapidly debilitating than being stabbed?



I'm no expert in either knives or bats, having limited experience with them. But I have experience in empty hand MA, much of which carries over to weapons.

Statement #1 is well taken.  A stab affects only a small area, and if not hitting a major organ can easily leave the opponent functional.   It's all about location, location, location.  Stabbing an artery or major vein may take a minute to seriously affect him, and a stab to a major nerve nexus can have disabling effects, but hard to count on being this accurate in a fight. 

Multiple stabs, say three or four in quick succession, I think would be the way to go.  Slashes, while not usually deep enough to get to organs or arteries are able to damage tendons which will incapacitate limbs. 

I think many people see knife and other weapon attacks _(including a thin baton_) as a one or two shot deal, overestimating the weapon's ability.  As in empty hand combat, an intelligent _combination_ of various moves in a concerted attack (including an empty hand or foot - "OTHER things") will be most effective in not only inflicting damage, but in keeping the opponent on the defensive as well.

Statement #2:  I would think that due to the accuracy needed for a single stab to be debilitating, a strong whack with a bat has a better chance of delivering a disabling single strike.  If solid contact is made there will be serious damage most anywhere it hits.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 1, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I'm no expert in either knives or bats, having limited experience with them. But I have experience in empty hand MA, much of which carries over to weapons.


I have not stabbed or batted a bunch of people. But I have spent 40 years treating them afterwards, which has led to accumulating a bit of knowledge on the subject...


isshinryuronin said:


> Statement #1 is well taken.  A stab affects only a small area, and if not hitting a major organ can easily leave the opponent functional.   It's all about location, location, location.  Stabbing an artery or major vein may take a minute to seriously affect him, and a stab to a major nerve nexus can have disabling effects, but hard to count on being this accurate in a fight.


No need to be. Stick the blade in reasonably close to the target. Now drag it sideways as you pull it out. 


isshinryuronin said:


> Multiple stabs, say three or four in quick succession, I think would be the way to go.  Slashes, while not usually deep enough to get to organs or arteries are able to damage tendons which will incapacitate limbs.


This is the best method for attacking the torso, and can be used effectively on extremities as well.
Slashes with the sort of blades commonly used in assaults (steak knives are the most common, followed by folders) will rarely disable a limb. I can't count how many tendon injuries I've seen. But I also can't recall a single one that was caused by an assailant. My memory isn't perfect, but still... But slashes are very very messy, and seeing blood flow will often discourage the person from continuing the fight.


isshinryuronin said:


> Statement #2:  I would think that due to the accuracy needed for a single stab to be debilitating, a strong whack with a bat has a better chance of delivering a disabling single strike.  If solid contact is made there will be serious damage most anywhere it hits.


Bats are over rated as weapons. The vast majority of people I've seen beaten with bats went home with bruises and maybe a few stitches.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 1, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Thanks for the detailed and thoughtful reply. I like the suggestion of testing the hiking pole against a simulated target.
> 
> While scenarios are, of course, unpredictable, the strategy I've been taught is to defend, strike, and get the hell out of there. One would hope that a few smacks from hiking pole would be enough to create an exit.
> 
> ...


I did not read all 5 pages. I am glad you know collapsible baton is not legal in a lot of places. That would be a very good choice otherwise. So even if you modify a fiberglass pole, it might still be illegal. Law is very funny.

You consider aluminum flash light? There are a lot of them, this is just a quick one I saw on Amazon:
https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable...4120622&sprefix=tactical+flas,aps,490&sr=8-30

Check the law in your area about tactical flash lights. You can even get one that has stun gun built in.

One question, why do you want it to be very light weight? I have those collapsible baton made of steel, it's NOT heavy to swing. I am not particularly strong and I am 69. It's a whole hell of a lot easier to swing than the Nylon walking cane I use. If you get a 21", it's not that hard to swing. Even the 26" I have is not that bad. 

Also, depends on your age, like I am 69, I look perfectly normal carrying a cane everywhere I go. I used to use a rattan cane. I found the biggest and stiffest cane with skin and over 1" diameter:
Walking Cane, Rattan

Ha ha, I took those pictures and gave them to the seller. He's a nice guy. It's about 11oz when cut to like 33" long. You can ask him to pick to about the weight you want. He hand picked for me. Nice guy.

BUT like a few people said, there is no stopping power if the stick is too light. I totally changed my mind when I saw a video on an escrima competition. The two guys just wacked each other the whole time. No defense, just beating each other crazy the whole few minutes. They were still standing after it's over. Sure, they wear protection, BUT anyone that spar before know that no matter what protection you wear, it hurts if you use full power. The last thing I want is when I hit the guy, he just look at me and say "Ouch!!!". Now you have a hurt and angry guy looking at you!!! I since changed to use TWO hands swinging and use a 20oz cane. 

So depend on your age, if you are older, consider a cane, that's legal, even go on airplane. If you have problem swinging a heavier cane with one hand, practice with two hands like me. Believe me, I beat the heavy bag to practice. HUGE DIFFERENCE in the sound between using one hand with rattan cane vs two hands with my Nylon cane.

This is the cane I use:  United Cutlery 39" Adjustable Walking Black Molded Nylon Shaft Cane 3129 760729312968 | eBay
I cut the hook and make it look very ordinary.

For lighter but still very hard stick and look classy, I have this one:
Cold Steel Walking Stick/Cane New City Stick 91STA  | eBay
I change the handle to make it ordinary so I don't attract attention. It's light enough to use single hand. Below is part of my cane collection with all 3 types I described. The Nylon, Cold Steel and the rattan:






Notice some have a bulge at the bottom for hitting the heavy bag. 

Good luck.


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## eskrima88 (Jun 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I did not read all 5 pages. I am glad you know collapsible baton is not legal in a lot of places. That would be a very good choice otherwise. So even if you modify a fiberglass pole, it might still be illegal. Law is very funny.
> 
> You consider aluminum flash light? There are a lot of them, this is just a quick one I saw on Amazon:
> https://www.amazon.com/Rechargeable-Tactical-Flashlights-XHP90-Flashlight/dp/B092ZHV3PF/ref=sr_1_30?crid=4IA2XMMPW3SH&keywords=tactical+flashlights&qid=1654120622&sprefix=tactical+flas,aps,490&sr=8-30
> ...


Thank you for the suggestions. The reason I want something lightweight is not because it's hard to wield a heavier impact weapon, but because I don't want to lug around something that weighs 1 pound or more, especially not hanging from my waistband. I checked out a collapsible aluminum pole the other day, and, left in collapsed position, it is pretty tough, and very lightweight. Also, I can attach it to my backpack and carry it when I go out.


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## Alan0354 (Jun 6, 2022)

eskrima88 said:


> Thank you for the suggestions. The reason I want something lightweight is not because it's hard to wield a heavier impact weapon, but because I don't want to lug around something that weighs 1 pound or more, especially not hanging from my waistband. I checked out a collapsible aluminum pole the other day, and, left in collapsed position, it is pretty tough, and very lightweight. Also, I can attach it to my backpack and carry it when I go out.


Have you check whether it is legal to carry? This is important, you don't want to get into trouble. I like those collapsible baton, but it's not legal in Ca.

Law is so funny, you can get into more trouble with this than carrying a gun!!!


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## Alan0354 (Jun 15, 2022)

Umbrella options:
You are being redirected...


Amazon.com : Security SELFDEFENSE Umbrella City-Safe Self defense stick umbrella and sturdy walking stick umbrella German quality wood handle : Sports & Outdoors

https://www.amazon.com/Fiberglass-T...cphy=9031935&hvtargid=pla-1465558751011&psc=1


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