# Why DO they hate us so much?



## geezer (Feb 9, 2008)

I was just poking around on some of the other MA forums and folks were really down on Wing Chun. On one site, the most popular thread was a WC bashing site.  I'm recently coming back to the art after a very long absence, and all this really surprises me. What's up with all this anger?


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## Sukerkin (Feb 9, 2008)

There's no rationally explaining it, *geezer*.

Ignore it as best you can and carry on with your training - the core point is what you get out of your art, not what others think of fit.


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## exile (Feb 9, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> There's no rationally explaining it, *geezer*.
> 
> Ignore it as best you can and carry on with your training - *the core point is what you get out of your art, not what others think of fit.*



Amen to that S.

Geezer, you just have to accept that there is a dark side to the internet: the ease with which unhappy people leading frustrated lives can channel their resentment into _X_-bashing, where _X_ can be anything at all. There is a kind of internet-lynch-mob phenomenon that is increasingly common, and a matter of some concern, and takes the form of a kind of mass bullying and flaming instigated by a few people who have their own private agendas, and the sociopathic inclination and skills to get the ball rolling. If you want to see a _really_ rabid example of this sort of thing, check out the many threads and posts devoted to Taekwondo that you'll probably find on that same (and/or similar) sites. Just remember, most of the people who posted to that site are probably totally clueless about the content of Wing Chun. Face to face with a sufficiently cold-blooded and experienced practitioner irritated beyond endurance by their ignorant abuse, most of them would probably wind up on the local orthopædic or internal medicine floors of their local ERs. I've seen good Wing Chunners and would not want to fall foul of _any_ of them :uhohh:...

Remember Schiller's wonderful line: _Against stupidity, the gods themselves contend in vain._ It ain' gonna change. As Sukerkin says, you just have to ignore itit means nothing, nothing at all.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 9, 2008)

Here on Martial Talk we don't like or support Art Bashers so why are you hanging out at another site that does?


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## exile (Feb 9, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Here on Martial Talk we don't like or support Art Bashers so why are you hanging out at another site that does?



I'm sure he was just slumming, MA-C! 

It's true, we seem to be the only MA site which has an active policiy of discouraging art-bashing in any form. To me, MAs are like the Bach cantatas: this isn't a bad one in the lot....


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 9, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was just poking around on some of the other MA forums and folks were really down on Wing Chun. On one site, the most popular thread was a WC bashing site.  I'm recently coming back to the art after a very long absence, and all this really surprises me. What's up with all this anger?



It's mostly the result of bad showing of Wing Chun in MMA events, and the ensuing MMA-er backlash of superiority banter. Of course, as many of us know, Wing Chun works very well in real life, as do many arts that have had bad or no showings in "The Octagon". 
Train hard in your respective art, dealing with realistic scenarios. Mix it up, play with contact. You know what you can do, just remember, we do MARTIAL ARTS. All these folks that are afraid to get hit make me ill. 
The more your sweat in peace, the less you bleed in war. Or put another way...
"Cry in the dojo, laugh on the battlefield."


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 9, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was just poking around on some of the other MA forums and folks were really down on Wing Chun. On one site, the most popular thread was a WC bashing site. I'm recently coming back to the art after a very long absence, and all this really surprises me. What's up with all this anger?


 
I'm going with Jealousy


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## tellner (Feb 9, 2008)

It's not just jealousy.

Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun as a whole got a bad reputation in the last couple decades. Part of it was the constant bickering among the various factions in the greater system. Part of it was the smug superiority of the more prominent members of the community. "The only way to beat chain punching is with superior chain punching", "Centerline theory is unbeatable", "If you can do chi sao it will beat everything", "If you get taken to the ground it's only because you didn't really understand Wing Chun" and all the rest of that. Asinine challenges and backpedalling when called on them left a bad taste in a lot of mouths. 

Lots of other people have done that sort of thing. WC was just in the right place at the right time to have it come home to roost. It wasn't the style so much as the attitude that seemed to go with it at the time. Some people still remember.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 9, 2008)

tellner said:


> It's not just jealousy.
> 
> Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun as a whole got a bad reputation in the last couple decades. Part of it was the constant bickering among the various factions in the greater system. Part of it was the smug superiority of the more prominent members of the community. "The only way to beat chain punching is with superior chain punching", "Centerline theory is unbeatable", "If you can do chi sao it will beat everything", "If you get taken to the ground it's only because you didn't really understand Wing Chun" and all the rest of that. Asinine challenges and backpedalling when called on them left a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
> 
> Lots of other people have done that sort of thing. WC was just in the right place at the right time to have it come home to roost. It wasn't the style so much as the attitude that seemed to go with it at the time. Some people still remember.


 
Like I said jealousy :uhyeah:

I only trained Wing Chun for a very short time and I am aware of the politics of it and the arogance in it, but it is not really anymore than just about any other MA out there. 

I no longer get much into the politics of things MA so jealousy works for me, although I am aware that is not the whole truth


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## exile (Feb 9, 2008)

tellner said:


> It's not just jealousy.
> 
> Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun as a whole got a bad reputation in the last couple decades. Part of it was the constant bickering among the various factions in the greater system. Part of it was the smug superiority of the more prominent members of the community. "The only way to beat chain punching is with superior chain punching", "Centerline theory is unbeatable", "If you can do chi sao it will beat everything", "If you get taken to the ground it's only because you didn't really understand Wing Chun" and all the rest of that. Asinine challenges and backpedalling when called on them left a bad taste in a lot of mouths.
> 
> Lots of other people have done that sort of thing. WC was just in the right place at the right time to have it come home to roost. It wasn't the style so much as the attitude that seemed to go with it at the time. Some people still remember.




Tellner's point is an important one, in explaining how it is that certain MAs get set up as targets. The majority of WC practitioners are no more arrogant or offensive than the majority of practitioners of any other MAs; but from what he reports, there were enough high-profile 'lightning rods' to give some of the more reactive members of the cybersphere a big fat target for their resentment. The prominence of TKD as an Olympic sport has had the same effect in that part of the MA world. Prominent names, zillion-dollar publicity, and high-profile posturing&#8212;especially in a world of instant media reporting&#8212;can wreak havoc in any domain. Personalities trump content every time. 

Talk to anyone who's been in one or the other of the TMAs and you'll see the same thing. Karate, TKD, Aikido, WC... all have taken their lumps in the MA internet archipelago. 

So what should all that hostile criticism mean for WC practitioners? Precisely nothing. If you understand that this reaction was, as per tellner's account, a response to personalities, not to content, then the resulting dissing of WC has as much basis _in_ practical reality as the lives of the twits that _People_ magazine raves on about have _for_ practical reality. Go ahead and pursue your craft and ignore what is, in the end, just a lot of... _noise_.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 9, 2008)

Don't worry, the American Silat community is the same. For all of the nice hard-working Silat players out there, the few fools out there that proclaim themselves as supreme ultimate masters over all others make the majority look bad. 
They'll pass on soon, however, & hopefully their disciples will come to their senses...


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## theletch1 (Feb 10, 2008)

The same could be said for aikido, Doc.  What really ruined it for the rest of us were those folks that decided that aikido should be very much akin to the philosophy of the hippie communes of the late '60s.  When large groups of westerners decided that there should be more meditation than technique in their art and called it aikido, well, suddenly the entire art got branded as nothing more than a bunch of people sitting around holding hands singing "ohmmmm" to one another.  

Mark and Bob have given the best bits of advice yet on this one, far as I'm concerned.  Train hard in the art that you love and don't worry about what others think...easier said than done, I know.  This phenomenon is even included within most arts when dealing with another sub-style of the umbrella art.  I study Nihon Goshin Aikido.  We don't trace our lineage back to Ueshiba.  You can't believe the crap we get from hombu stylists for not being "real" aikido-ka.  "You guys are more -jutsu than do!" they'll yell. Or "If you don't trace back to O'Sensei it's not really aikido."  It used to bug me.  Eventually, I realized that I was training for ME not them and it stopped bothering me.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 10, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> ...I study Nihon Goshin Aikido.  We don't trace our lineage back to Ueshiba.  You can't believe the crap we get from hombu stylists for not being "real" aikido-ka.  "You guys are more -jutsu than do!" they'll yell. Or "If you don't trace back to O'Sensei it's not really aikido."  It used to bug me.  Eventually, I realized that I was training for ME not them and it stopped bothering me.



I don't get it. How can you do Aikido with no connection to Ueshiba (O-sensei)? Now, I can understand in Ninjutsu, if someone didn't trace their lineage back to Hatsumi-sensei, since there are alot of wannabee goobers out there. But practicing Aikido and having no connection to Ueshiba is like doing Kyokushikai  with no connection to Mas Oyama.

Do you have a link to your dojo, or something more about your style? I'm curious if you have more connection to schools like Daito Ryu? Thanks :wavey:


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2008)

I'm unaware of any MMA link to 'hating' Whin Chun.I know of only one pro fighter here who has practised it, that's Sami Berik. He's a really nice guy, his records not too good because he choses the wrong opponents, nothing to do with his style. He's a good fighter and no one to my knowledge has ever said anything bad about Whin Chun when talking about him.


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## theletch1 (Feb 10, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> I don't get it. How can you do Aikido with no connection to Ueshiba (O-sensei)? Now, I can understand in Ninjutsu, if someone didn't trace their lineage back to Hatsumi-sensei, since there are alot of wannabee goobers out there. But practicing Aikido and having no connection to Ueshiba is like doing Kyokushikai with no connection to Mas Oyama.
> 
> Do you have a link to your dojo, or something more about your style? I'm curious if you have more connection to schools like Daito Ryu? Thanks :wavey:


Just follow the link in my sig.  Ueshiba trained in DRAJJ with Shiodo Morita.  Shiodo came up with Nihon Goshin while Ueshiba was creating his style of aikido.  Many an argument has ensued over lineages and such.  Me, I don't argue...'cause I don't care.  I get what I want from the art I train and that's enough for me.


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## geezer (Feb 10, 2008)

tellner said:


> It's not just jealousy.
> 
> Wing Chun/Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun as a whole got a bad reputation in the last couple decades. Part of it was the constant bickering among the various factions in the greater system. Part of it was the smug superiority of the more prominent members of the community. "The only way to beat chain punching is with superior chain punching", "Centerline theory is unbeatable", "If you can do chi sao it will beat everything", "If you get taken to the ground it's only because you didn't really understand Wing Chun" and all the rest of that.



First off, thanks for the support, guys. It's nice to know that there is still some civility out there. And, _Tellner_, you are telling it like it is. During the 80's, Wing Chun/Tsun was my passion. In the 90's, I "dropped out" for a variety of reasons, such as a change of career and starting a family. But also because of the politics, arrogance, and excessive fees to continue my instruction and maintain my "si-fu" certification. Not to mention that I enjoyed a bit of cross training to keep things "real". That didn't go over well at all!  Many years later, when I came back to training, I found that a lot of other people had worked through the same problems and we could train together without all that BS.  And, with more respect for other MAs. I'm also continuing in Escrima, getting some "powerful" (ouch!) input from a boxer, and hope to be doing some wrestling with my son--all on a safe level that a geezer can handle. No ego, no delusion. Oh, and _MA Caver_, thanks for the slap! I'm through slumming on those other sites.


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> Just follow the link in my sig. Ueshiba trained in DRAJJ with Shiodo Morita. Shiodo came up with Nihon Goshin while Ueshiba was creating his style of aikido. Many an argument has ensued over lineages and such. *Me, I don't argue...'cause I don't care. I get what I* *want from the art I train and that's enough for me.[/*quote]
> 
> 
> And that sums up perfectly how it should be!


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was just poking around on some of the other MA forums and folks were really down on Wing Chun. On one site, the most popular thread was a WC bashing site. I'm recently coming back to the art after a very long absence, and all this really surprises me. What's up with all this anger?


 
I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.

But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art."  It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.

But I have no hatred for wing chun practitioner's, that would just be silly and misplaced.

However, I am quite annoyed with instructors who charge money for Wing Chun as a form of Self-Defense.

It isn't, and that's fraud if they accept money for it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
> 
> But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." *It's just not very effective* *against an athletic, competent fighter.*
> 
> ...


 
I'm afraid you can't just say that and not explain why you think that!


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## exile (Feb 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Bodhisattva said:
> 
> 
> > I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
> ...



Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Exactly what's the basis for your claim (which amounts to an assertion that no WC practitioner, no matter how good, is going to be successful in a no-rules fight against an `athletic, competent fighter')? Just how do you know this?


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## geezer (Feb 10, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
> 
> But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.
> 
> ...


 
Oh god, the hatred has found me!!! Seriously though, you've got to define your terms. For me, MMA isn't self defense, _it's all out fighting_--with or without rules, depending on the venue. _Self-defense_ is an old lady using pepper-spray on a mugger, then kicking him hard in the ...er...cojones! And, regarding Wing Chun/Tsun, after working a few times with Emin Boztepe, I can say that it can be very effective within its range. Sure it has limitations...but then what doesn't?


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> *Oh god, the hatred has found me!!!* Seriously though, you've got to define your terms. For me, MMA isn't self defense, _it's all out fighting_--with or without rules, depending on the venue. _Self-defense_ is an old lady using pepper-spray on a mugger, then kicking him hard in the ...er...cojones! And, regarding Wing Chun/Tsun, after working a few times with Emin Boztepe, I can say that it can be very effective within its range. Sure it has limitations...but then what doesn't?


 
Not on this forum it hasn't! there's no chance we'd let it lol! 
With the user name geezer are you English by any chance as it's an unusual word for a non Englishman. That's an interesting take on MMA by the way!


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## geezer (Feb 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Not on this forum it hasn't! there's no chance we'd let it lol!
> With the user name geezer are you English by any chance as it's an unusual word for a non Englishman. That's an interesting take on MMA by the way!


Nah, I'm, not English...probably just watched too many episodes of Red Dwarf.  And I am getting older --in my fifties now. Anyway, how do you feel about other traditional martial arts--Taikwondo, traditional Karate, other Kung-fu styles, and so on?


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## Sukerkin (Feb 10, 2008)

Ah, one of our mature members - always a welcome sight, particularly when they have good comedic taste :tup:.

I wont speak for *Tez* as that would be rude but TMA is the way as far as I'm concerned.  I spent more than a decade training in Lau Gar Kung Fu until a fairly horrendous bike accident stole that from me.  I've since leapt wholesale into the Japanese Sword arts and am now nidan in MJER.

I generally get quite aggrivated by the "MMA is the roxxorz" attitude that you tend to run into around the Net but if you want a proper and balanced perspective on MMA then *Tez* is the lass to speak to.  She managed to change my mind about the _serious_ followers of MMA anyhow (and I'm stubborn as the proverbial :O).


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## kidswarrior (Feb 10, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I'm unaware of any MMA link to 'hating' Whin Chun.*I know of only one pro fighter here who has practised it, that's Sami Berik*. He's a really nice guy, his records not too good because he choses the wrong opponents, nothing to do with his style. *He's a good fighter* and no one to my knowledge has ever said anything bad about Whin Chun when talking about him.


But see, you're not playing by the *internet warrior* rules, Tez. You actually _know _fighters, and speak from experience. No fair! :lol:

Oh, and someone needs to have a talk with Sami's manager. Not a good way to bring along a fighter.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 10, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Ah, one of our mature members - always a welcome sight, particularly when they have good comedic taste :tup:.


Second that.



> I wont speak for *Tez* as that would be rude but TMA is the way as far as I'm concerned.


It is addicting, isn't it?  But then MA training probably is too, eh?



> I spent more than a decade training in Lau Gar Kung Fu until a fairly horrendous bike accident stole that from me.  I've since leapt wholesale into the Japanese Sword arts and am now nidan in MJER.


Yes, kudos again my friend. :asian:



> I generally get quite aggrivated by the "MMA is the roxxorz" attitude that you tend to run into around the Net but if you want a proper and balanced perspective on MMA then *Tez* is the lass to speak to.  She managed to change my mind about the _serious_ followers of MMA anyhow (and I'm stubborn as the proverbial :O).


She's done the same for me. I'm not stubborn tho....  :tantrum:


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 10, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
> 
> But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.
> 
> ...


 
Ahh here we go again.

And how much Wing Chun have you trained to come to that conclusion or or many REAL wing chun people have you had the chance to train with


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## Tames D (Feb 10, 2008)

exile said:


> Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Exactly what's the basis for your claim (which amounts to an assertion that no WC practitioner, no matter how good, is going to be successful in a no-rules fight against an `athletic, competent fighter')? *Just how do you know this*?


It's simple, he doesn't.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 10, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art."  It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.



Yes, I'm sure that Wing Chun folks train to be able to deal with the random street encounter or mugging by a fighter the likes of Chuck Liddell or Tito Ortiz. That happens every day, now doesn't it... get off the knob & grow up. Please.


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## Tez3 (Feb 10, 2008)

Geezer Red Dwarf is cool! so's MT! Told you the folks here won't let hate happen!
Thanks guys! I love MMA but then I love all martial arts, my TMAs are TSD and Wado Ryu oh and I'm one of the mature people too lol! Well in age anyway.
I know very little about CMAs, I expect there are people who can't defend themselves in it as there are in all martial arts and there will be people who are taking money and not teaching properly again as there are in all martial arts, that's down to human nature not a particular martial art. You can't just come on here and say oh the whole art is a fraud! It's a sweeping statement that no one is going to believe.

The problem with Sami is that he doesn't have a manager, he takes his own fights which tbh a fighter should never do. He and his brother Huseyin who designed Samis amazing website are the team, their sister Aysen is fighting in CR in a couple of weeks agaisnt a very strong Irish girl and we fear the worse. 
Most British MMAers come from a TMA background and while there is some TMA bashing it's usually from the 'spectators' rather than those who train and/or fight. We have several TKD blackbelts who are now highly ranked in MMA as well as MT students and karate. Of course there's a fair few from BJJ who've taken up striking. I'm not sure how widespread CMAs are in the UK though.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 11, 2008)

Where a lot of it stems from is that many wing chun schools proclaim themselves to be the best fighters out there, yet when it comes to fast time 'evidence', there is none

With the emergence of Youtube and myspace etc, more and more boxing, UFC and kickboxing bouts are being put on and yet there are no good wing chun videos

The trouble is that arts like boxing etc are designed to be performed in a sport environment (under rules etc) Even the UFC with its 'no rules' claim has many rules

Wing chun is one of those arts that is difficult to glove up and show what it can do without hurting someone. i have tried asking my training partners from other arts to video me using wing chn against whatever style they want, but they won't allow it. 

And I don't want to go down to martial arts schools and ask them to do the same as they would take it the wrong way

Because of this, wing chun loses a lot of reputation, especially when people like William Cheung and Leung Ting claim to be the best around

Its a shame because as people have said before - it is the person that makes the art. Arts themselves should not be judged as one. 
Think how many branches of karate there are. How many styles of grappling there are. 

It is easy for the close minded guys to see a couple of videos and judge the whole art by that


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 11, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Because of this, wing chun loses a lot of reputation, especially when people like William Cheung and Leung Ting claim to be the best around


 
True and sadly they are the loudest. It has been my experience that the ones that are really really good at a given CMA style tend not to talk about it much.



Kamon Guy said:


> Its a shame because as people have said before - it is the person that makes the art. Arts themselves should not be judged as one.
> Think how many branches of karate there are. How many styles of grappling there are.


 
Agreed



Kamon Guy said:


> It is easy for the close minded guys to see a couple of videos and judge the whole art by that


 
Also very true and in many cases the video being supplied of Art A vs. Art B are put up to show the superiority of Art A in general and belittle Art B. And again generally your best practitioners tend not to video anything for post on YouTube


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## kidswarrior (Feb 11, 2008)

What *X-S* said. 

Good post, *Kamon Guy*.


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## The Last Legionary (Feb 12, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
> 
> But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art." It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.
> 
> ...


 
I like you. Opinion without solid fact to back it up. I bet someone told you Wing Chun sucked, maybe you saw a thead on it somewhere else where the IQ average tends towards the single digits? I won't rehash what others already said as it's probably quite above your reading level. I'll be brief.
* Wing Chun is martial art
* Wing Chun effective
* Wing Chun old art, much refined
* Wing Chun not include smelling mans butt = v.good idea
* Most fighters not athletes.
* UFC Cage not street fight or war. It sport fight, like boxing, but with cuddling and hugging. No kissies though. It rule.

Now you go back and justify comments or be labled "Big Poopy Head".


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## shesulsa (Feb 12, 2008)

*MODERATION NOTE:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful - we do not art bash here. Please read the General Posting Rules.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator*


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## BFL (Feb 12, 2008)

I might be out of line but, I like the "Big poopy head" comment, seems to fit the "attitude" being portrayed.  :toilclaw:


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## Spartan (Feb 12, 2008)

Dudes,
I don't agree w/ Bodhisattva, but this person isn't necessarily ripping on WC; he's just saying why he doesn't care for the style (which I don't feel is correct). 

Going further, I don't think your giving sufficient rebutles to his claims.

Lastly, your choice of names and analogies Last Legionary are juvenile and only spurns further contention between wing chunners and other stylists.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 13, 2008)

I have taken many many different styles of martial arts in my short lifetime. Some I have gotten to high ranks, other I have skimmed teh surface of

I would say, without a doubt, that for self defence, wing chun is the best one for me

I am a big guy and so it would be easy to use force to acheive victory but when I played rugby and was doing karate based arts, I would get slaughtered in punch ups

Obviously each kung fu and each wing chun school is different. But when students come to my door, I will teach them realistic, applicable and devastating techniques which are 100% more reliable than moves you will find in other arts (which I will not name)

If there are any doubts, please feel free to send me a private email and I will list the schools that I have trained at and the school I teach at

There are most definately schools out there equal to Kamon, perhaps better, but I have not found them

I understand Bodhi's comment in relation to schools that think a kick to the groin is self defence etc. But many wing chun schools teach excellent self defence. But hopefully, those that don't will one day get exposed


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## geezer (Feb 13, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Where a lot of it stems from is that many wing chun schools proclaim themselves to be the best fighters out there, yet when it comes to fast time 'evidence', there is none
> 
> With the emergence of Youtube and myspace etc, more and more boxing, UFC and kickboxing bouts are being put on and yet there are no good wing chun videos
> 
> It is easy for the close minded guys to see a couple of videos and judge the whole art by that


 
Well my work computer is "screened" and I can't access youtube, and at home I only have a "dial-up" connection--so I don't see much of what's out there. Still a lot of the WC videos I have seen are horrible! I beseech yea of greater technical skills to remedy this situation! Let's get some better videos out there. Although, it might not do any good. Everybody is an armchair expert.  Its easy to pick apart what you don't understand. And WC is pretty subtle. What do you think?


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## kidswarrior (Feb 13, 2008)

geezer said:


> Let's get some better videos out there. Although, it might not do any good. Everybody is an armchair expert. Its easy to pick apart what you don't understand. And WC is pretty subtle. What do you think?


At yesterday's basic class I ran the video camera in order to be able to send a 'starter' tape to someone who lives too far away to come to classes regularly (I know, not optimal, but still better than nothing). Reviewing the tape last night, I was both satisfied that it captured the basics, and dismayed that in 2D so much was lost. The loss can be overcome somewhat through sketches that will go with the tape, as well as emailing back and forth. But with a Youtube clip, there is none of the latter. Bottom line, I'd hate to have my art/practice/teaching judged by a couple of minutes of video. One reason I'll never post such a clip.

I know this is not specific to Wing Chun, but still believe it's within the topic.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 13, 2008)

I was thinking much the same, *Kds*.  I've seen MJER footage by some very highly ranked practioners that looked simply awful.  I hadn't really put my finger on it being down to the essential 2D nature of video but now you've made the observation I can better understand why.

It also makes me feel better about how terrible the video taken of me practising looks so bad ... :whistles:.


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## Seeker (Feb 13, 2008)

I always believed that much of this Internet WC hate-fest started with Phil Elmore running his yap and p***ing off everyone over at bull-shido. 

He was studying WC at the time so they dug in and dug up every little embarrassing clip they could find to throw back at him. And as time went on, many of the bull-shidoites spread their dismay for the art far and wide throughout the Web.

But I could be wrong.


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## BFL (Feb 14, 2008)

Seeker, I'm knew here but hope you don't me saying I agree, BullSh*to has to be the most agressive at W.C. bashing but it all sitll comes down to ego, the only way some people can pump themselves up and feel good about themselves and what they're doing, is to slam someone else.  
Peace to all.
BFL


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## kidswarrior (Feb 14, 2008)

BFL said:


> it all sitll comes down to ego, *the only way some people can pump themselves up and feel good about themselves and what they're doing, is to slam someone else.  *
> Peace to all.
> BFL


You've said a mouthful, there, friend.


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## Seeker (Feb 14, 2008)

BFL said:


> Seeker, I'm knew here but hope you don't me saying I agree, BullSh*to has to be the most agressive at W.C. bashing but it all sitll comes down to ego, the only way some people can pump themselves up and feel good about themselves and what they're doing, is to slam someone else.
> Peace to all.
> BFL


 
Yes, they dedicate an entire month to bashing WC (_ing _un sucks month), well they do this for many styles..

But what I saw as a testament to what you said about their egos was when they had (tried to have) BJJ & MMA sucks month, the furry and complaints coming from their members forced the mod to retract on stating that these two styles could ever suck.

They had the chance to show that they're doing these "style X sucks month" out of fun, but they cannot even poke fun at themselves. And that to me is very sad.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 14, 2008)

Seeker said:


> Yes, they dedicate an entire month to bashing WC (_ing _un sucks month), well they do this for many styles..
> 
> But what I saw as a testament to what you said about their egos was when they had (tried to have) BJJ & MMA sucks month, the furry and complaints coming from their members forced the mod to retract on stating that these two styles could ever suck.
> 
> They had the chance to show that they're doing these "style X sucks month" out of fun, but they cannot even poke fun at themselves. And that to me is very sad.


 
What I find interesting about the site in question is this very thing the outward aggression against other styles.

There is a site that is dedicated to Sport Sanshou, it is a very good site actually, it is very obvious they have little use for TMA but they do not go out og thier way to bash it nor do posts that start that try and bash it or the posters last all that long. Actually there is very little discussion about TMA at all. They are simply to busy training for the next fight to waste their time doing it. 

So what does that tell you about the site you are talking about?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 14, 2008)

Sidebar here folks.  The site in question is in our filter due to their attitude and past and current hostile and unfriendly actions towards this site, its staff and myself. We really don't wish to give them any publicity.  Both the filter circumventions and "bashing" are policy violations here, in case anyone wasn't aware. So, please, don't work around the filter and lets stay above them and not get into the 'bashing' even if the comments are spot on.
Danke. 


This comment "*the only way some people can pump themselves up and feel good about themselves and what they're doing, is to slam someone else. *" is very true. So, very true.  I've seen it numerous times, listened to it from folks who have some tallent but need to lower someone else so they look/feel better about their own standings, etc. My opinion is, it says a lot when you have to constantly rip others apart.


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 14, 2008)

Seeker said:


> Yes, they dedicate an entire month to bashing WC (_ing _un sucks month), well they do this for many styles..
> 
> But what I saw as a testament to what you said about their egos was when they had (tried to have) BJJ & MMA sucks month, the furry and complaints coming from their members forced the mod to retract on stating that these two styles could ever suck.
> 
> They had the chance to show that they're doing these "style X sucks month" out of fun, but they cannot even poke fun at themselves. And that to me is very sad.


Exactly. I actually found the montage clip tehy did for _ing _un sucks month hilarious

Whatever style you get (including BJJ) there are bad teachers or poor versions of it, that claim to be something they are not. I have no problem with an art not being self defence orientated, provided that they don't claim to be a self defence art, etc

The thing with videos is that you post a fighting vid of wing chun destroying an oponent and they claim that there is no wing chun in it!!!
Or if you post a vid showing how a technique works they tear it apart by saying that it is not being done in the cage. Sometimes you can't win

In the end, I just invite them down to my school and the Bull-shidoites who have accepted have come away with a different attitude

A lot of forum guys turn out to be 16 year old guys who have only seen martial arts in movies etc, or just jealous of teh talent that exists in many wing chun schools out there


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## jim777 (Feb 14, 2008)

It's not just in the Martial Arts that this happens, it happens everywhere, and nearly all the time. On guitar sites you see rockers comlaining about the lack of perceived emotion in jazz, and the jazz musicians joking about the lack of skill required to play rock. This "mine is bigger..uh, Better than yours" mindset is nearly universal. As Neil Peart said, "Ignorance, prejudice and fear walk hand in hand". If you've got no real experience and no considered opinion (but you still really want to join in and be accepted) there's nothing so easy as simply falling in line behind the biggest loudmouth with a "Yeah, +1 Man, YEAH!!!" Woo Hoo :lol:

I've never had the pleasure of studying Wing Chun personally, but I would love to study it or another CMA some day. There's always been something incredibly cool about CMAs to me, going back to the (dare I say it) Kung Fu TV series. Meeting force with redirection rather than equal or more force...there's nothing cooler than that


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 15, 2008)

Yeah I never understand why people always claim that a *style* is better than another
There are certainly some schools out there which need to be investigated by authorities for their behaviour (conning students etc), but generally I have never found one style to be better than another 

I like Kamon which happens to be wing chun. But i am sure if Master Chan had learnt TKD instead of wing chun, he would have made it just as good

The UFC has shown more than anything, that no one style is better than another. The top guys/champions are usually proficient in at least three styles

Royce Gracie used to claim that BJJ could beat any art, and in the cage it did for a while. But then a couple of years later other arts started to fight back (hence the 'Gracie killer') etc

Also, styles like BJJ constantly spar and test each other through resisted training which is the closest to real fighting you will get in a training session

With wing chun, it is often hard to perform fak sao or hard palm strikes to the face, neck etc for obvious reason. But I find working against resisting opponents very good training


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> With wing chun, *it is often hard to perform fak sao or hard palm strikes to the face, neck etc for obvious reason*. But *I find working against resisting opponents very good training*


Kung fu san soo is the same way. We don't strap on sparring gear and turn into kick boxers at the end of class (as I've had to do in other arts, thus un-learning everything we'd just learned in the previous hour or two :angry. But, doesn't mean we don't work against resistance. Just have to be a little more careful about it (those palm strikes can be viscous, eh?, as spear hands, chops, kicks to the inner legs...well, you know  Oh, and the throws. With no gear, and no nice ring flooring, the ground _hurts_--and never misses.). And we have to realize the effect they'd have at full force/speed. I believe it was someone here who said _1000 times slow, one time fast_. Or as Jimmy Woo would say, if you want to be fast, practice slow. Maybe it's more a CMA thing? (I know there are sport CMA's as San Shou, but I mean the combat stuff).

Now will all of this show up on a 2 min clip? Only if you know what to look for. :yoda:Those who don't, or are looking for bashing fodder, have an easy time dismissing it.


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## Tames D (Feb 15, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Kung fu san soo is the same way. We don't strap on sparring gear and turn into kick boxers at the end of class (as I've had to do in other arts, thus un-learning everything we'd just learned in the previous hour or two :angry. But, doesn't mean we don't work against resistance. Just have to be a little more careful about it (those palm strikes can be viscous, eh?, as spear hands, chops, kicks to the inner legs...well, you know  Oh, and the throws. With no gear, and no nice ring flooring, the ground _hurts_--and never misses.). And we have to realize the effect they'd have at full force/speed. I believe it was someone here who said _1000 times slow, one time fast_. Or as Jimmy Woo would say, if you want to be fast, practice slow. Maybe it's more a CMA thing? (I know there are sport CMA's as San Shou, but I mean the combat stuff).
> 
> Now will all of this show up on a 2 min clip? Only if you know what to look for. :yoda:Those who don't, or are looking for bashing fodder, have an easy time dismissing it.


There you go again, throwing those Jimmy Woo quotes around.


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## Seeker (Feb 15, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Sidebar here folks. The site in question is in our filter due to their attitude and past and current hostile and unfriendly actions towards this site, its staff and myself. We really don't wish to give them any publicity.Both the filter circumventions and "bashing" are policy violations here, in case anyone wasn't aware. *So, please, don't work around the filter and lets stay above them and not get into the 'bashing' even if the comments are spot on.*
> Danke.
> 
> 
> > I do apologize for that.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 15, 2008)

QUI-GON said:


> There you go again, throwing those Jimmy Woo quotes around.


Dude, where you been? Been missing my San Soo Brotha.


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## Tames D (Feb 15, 2008)

kidswarrior said:


> Dude, where you been? Been missing my San Soo Brotha.


Big problems. Don't want to hijack the thread, I'll shoot you an email.


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## tenth1 (Feb 16, 2008)

it is the nature of man to hate that which is unfamiliar, for many who practice mma there is little apparent similarity in wing chun and so it can be easy to critiscise it


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2008)

tenth1 said:


> it is the nature of man to hate that which is unfamiliar, for many who practice mma there is little apparent similarity in wing chun and so it can be easy to critiscise it


 
Erm, I don't thnk it's the MMA people who were criticising Wing Chun so please don't blame us....yet again.


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## qwksilver61 (Feb 16, 2008)

Honestly,over the course of many years I've learned that no matter what a person does, drives, wears,or how he or she choses to live *someone* will find a reason to hate it or you.Drive a cool car keyed or despised, comments good and bad,haircut,clothes,ride a cool bike or what you can afford most bikers I've met are full of ego,some cool some real A- holes, practice a real cool martial art,well kind of like being a gun fighter,everyone wants to either fight you or tell you what time it is,*EGO,kill the EGO!*


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## tenth1 (Feb 17, 2008)

sorry tez just using mma as an example not targeting it as culprit i should have been more clear


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## tenth1 (Feb 17, 2008)

actually i think quicksilver captured what i was trying to say much better than i did... well said


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2008)

tenth1 said:


> sorry tez just using mma as an example not targeting it as culprit i should have been more clear


 

That's alright don't do it again young man! ( you have to picture me as a little old lady peering ( I said pee*r*ing!) over her glasses at you while you read this!)
I get very defensive about MMA, I thnk I might a thread about it, I could call it why do they hate us so much lol!


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## hungfistron (Feb 18, 2008)

Dont let those who have not truely researched and learned for themselves tell you how effective your martial art is.

The true question is that if that person is truely a martial artist, why do they seek to elevate their martial art above yours?  And if they believe they are correct, can they _*prove*_ it?


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## qwksilver61 (Mar 11, 2008)

Hey ,when you can fight without lifting a finger....you've mastered yourself.
 I experience nasty,rude people daily,the best part....I don't have to be one of them.Being flexible isn't this what Wing Chun is all about?


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## Triballus (Mar 19, 2008)

Hey All. This is my first post so bare with me.

To keep in line with the original topic. On a danish page on  martial arts i found these links, ( I am a dane  myself ;-) which to me represents the essence of what is commercially "wrong" with wing chun (generic)

http://www.chinesechainpunchingkungfu.com/

http://www.poonsao.com/

This imo is not wing chun (generic) this is TV-SHOP!!, There are probably worse eksampels some would think. This was just one i happened to stumble upon..

On the whole issue of wing chunners not doing well in MMA fights/UFC (i ampainting with broad strokes here) I think your point is valid also. The generel public (typical couch-fighters ;-) has seen wing chun practioners doing bad in these to them "ultimate" tests and by this judge us to be "nothing".
I say, in line with the others in this thread, turn the other cheek. Focus what makes you happy about our art and rest assure that you are laerning a uniqe sport...

regards Mads

Three months into _Weng chun_ (Hoffman system) and loving it!! ;-)


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## theletch1 (Mar 19, 2008)

Welcome aboard, Tribbalus!  The kind of things that you'll find on pages designed to bring in students are almost comical sometimes, aren't they?  Take a look at many aikido videos on youtube or any other video site and you'd have a very poor opinion of aikido.  There is just no substitute for hands on practice.

When you get a chance you should go over to our Meet and Greet section and introduce yourself to the board at large.  Happy posting.


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## dungeonworks (Mar 26, 2008)

Seeker said:


> Yes, they dedicate an entire month to bashing WC (_ing _un sucks month), well they do this for many styles..
> 
> But what I saw as a testament to what you said about their egos was when they had (tried to have) BJJ & MMA sucks month, the furry and complaints coming from their members forced the mod to retract on stating that these two styles could ever suck.
> 
> They had the chance to show that they're doing these "style X sucks month" out of fun, but they cannot even poke fun at themselves. And that to me is very sad.



Seeker, it's *********....the best example of a running mouth and empty brained "herd mentality" run amok! :wink2:  For more on that, please see Sherdog Forums as well.  Most of these bashers really think MMA/BJJ are the be all/end all to any fight.  I believe that about 80-85% of this is a product of adolescent's in possession of a keyboard and internet connection creating accounts and feeding into it because it makes them feel better about things uncontrollable in their life....and just want to fit in and found a place they can write insults to each other and have a proclaimed common ground, no matter how unfounded or ignorant of Martial Arts they are.  Bottom line, they are kids and will learn with life experience.

I am brand new to Wing Chun but not to martial arts.  I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Koei-Kan-Karate-Do, Kickboxing (American rules/no leg kicks), and did some training at a local MMA/Grappling club.  They all have things I can and at times have used.  For me, this is what I got from each:

*Tae Kwon Do:*  Good long range kicks and leg flexibility.  I kick better from my TKD experience than anyother art I have thus far seen.

*Koei-Kan-Karate-Do:*  Toughness.  Full contact sparring educates you in technique....especially defensively.  I also learned some basic Judo throws that have proven useful in two bar altercations.

*Kickboxing:*  Movement, boxing skills, and more toughness :hammer:.  I was able to tie together what kicking combinations in real-time full power felt like.  I also was able to become more adept with my offensive hand skills and my physical fitness level was never higher, even better than when I was in the Army.

*MMA/Grappling:*  Showed me the holes in my game created from too much reliance on kickboxing and further improved on my kicking as the kick-game changed when I was sparring guys with decent wrestling ability.  A few hard takedowns after attempting kicks above the waist that I could get away with all day long kickboxing really got me interested in learning some low level kicks ala Muay Thai.  The there is the grappling.  I enjoyed it very much as a game, but as practice in MMA sparring, i focused so much more on takedown defence and escapes than anything simply because I am by roots a striker.

I am an MMA fan....BIG MMA fan and have been since the first UFC's came about in the early 90's.  Even then they had rules.  BJJ ruled that era because they had fighters from styles that didn't deal with grappling very well for the most part.  Let's face it, it showed gaping holes in their game.  MMA is the closest "sport" we have to seeing an actual fight and their are things to learn from it as well.  Enter the wrestler, Mark Coleman, Dan Severn, and Tito Ortiz ect.  They came around and it showed weakness to the BJJ guys with thier ability to control the body through physuical attributes + technique.  They created ground and pound that is not uncommon in a street fight.  Enter the kickboxer, namely Maurice Smith and then Chuck Liddell.  They figured out how to beat both BJJ and wrestling by takedown avoidance and submission escapes.  Now, they all need to be well rounded in ALL aspects of the game because it has evolved full circle and into it's own "MMA style" with MMA gyms popping up all over God's creation.  These gyms focus on techniques for the ring/cage.  They are practiced VERY hard with a lot of blood, sweat, and tears.  It takes a special kind of person to subject themselves to that kind of training.  Now, compare the average MMA guy to the fat out of shape guy in a gi standing in the window of your average McDojo/McDojang/McKwoon (and I've seen a lot of them) boasting that he can train you into a lethal killing machine without any kind of contact in sparring.  Which is gonna appear more legit?  It is no suprise many people will equate the UFC/MMA with real fighting, especialy if they are not martial artists or have not experienced an altercation since school, if ever.

What is my point (and there is one!) to all this (assuming anyone got past the preceding paragraph! :lol2: )???  Every form of fighting we see in MMA is from traditional martial arts be it Jujitsu's, Wrestling (various), Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Kung Fu's...ect.  An arm bar is an arm bar no matter how you apply it.  There are only certain ways to bend an appendage or choke out a person.  Well, most any of those bashing Wing Chun or anyother style is doing so out of ignorance.  Their mouth is getting ahead of their brain.  They are exposed much more frequently to the sport of MMA than the study or exhibition of TMA.  Not every technique in each style is suitable to the in ring rules that limit certain skill sets contained in a style (some more/less than others)....notably Wing Chun with it's targeting of the eyes, throat, groin...ect.  The answer is as simple as that.


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## brocklee (Mar 27, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Seeker, it's *********....the best example of a running mouth and empty brained "herd mentality" run amok! :wink2:  For more on that, please see Sherdog Forums as well.  Most of these bashers really think MMA/BJJ are the be all/end all to any fight.  I believe that about 80-85% of this is a product of adolescent's in possession of a keyboard and internet connection creating accounts and feeding into it because it makes them feel better about things uncontrollable in their life....and just want to fit in and found a place they can write insults to each other and have a proclaimed common ground, no matter how unfounded or ignorant of Martial Arts they are.  Bottom line, they are kids and will learn with life experience.
> 
> I am brand new to Wing Chun but not to martial arts.  I have studied Tae Kwon Do, Koei-Kan-Karate-Do, Kickboxing (American rules/no leg kicks), and did some training at a local MMA/Grappling club.  They all have things I can and at times have used.  For me, this is what I got from each:
> 
> ...



I love to watch UFC but think people and fans are persuaded that BJJ and grappling are the best to use because most fighters use it in the ring.  I'd like to see someone grapple on the pavement.  This is where anti-grappling comes in handy and will leave you the victor in a street brawl.  WC is strictly for street fighting and can't be used successfully with rules or limitations.  Do a google search of "wing chun vs streetfighter" and watch the video.  That's how a fight should go down, and probably WOULD go down, if a WC'er were able to fight UFC with our rules and on pavement.  I believe the fights would be very swift and UFC would lose $$ because fans wouldn't be satisfied with a 15 second fight.  

just my 2 cents


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## dungeonworks (Mar 27, 2008)

brocklee said:


> I love to watch UFC but think people and fans are persuaded that BJJ and grappling are the best to use because most fighters use it in the ring.  I'd like to see someone grapple on the pavement.  This is where anti-grappling comes in handy and will leave you the victor in a street brawl.  WC is strictly for street fighting and can't be used successfully with rules or limitations.  Do a google search of "wing chun vs streetfighter" and watch the video.  That's how a fight should go down, and probably WOULD go down, if a WC'er were able to fight UFC with our rules and on pavement.  I believe the fights would be very swift and UFC would lose $$ because fans wouldn't be satisfied with a 15 second fight.
> 
> just my 2 cents



Here's Wing Chun vs Karate in sport...but as I mentioned I am new to Wing Chun and could not tell anyone that this "is" Wing Chun he is using.  He dominated the guy to say the least.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related

I see what you are saying about sport rules limiting Wing Chun....and here's a good example of what you are saying, that Wing Chun confined to speciffic rules and limits.  Wing Chun vs Kyokushin Karate under Kyokushin rules...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related

That being said, Kyokushin is a pretty devastating system unto itself.


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## brocklee (Mar 27, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Here's Wing Chun vs Karate in sport...but as I mentioned I am new to Wing Chun and could not tell anyone that this "is" Wing Chun he is using.  He dominated the guy to say the least.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ3-Hi-kMNo&feature=related
> 
> ...



Competition fighting is a bit different compared to an open street fight.  The essence of fear isn't as great during a tournament match because the opponents rely on the rules that were created.  A person can be #1 in the ring using their martial art but on the street....its a completely different battle because it's no holds barred.


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## dungeonworks (Mar 27, 2008)

brocklee said:


> Competition fighting is a bit different compared to an open street fight.  The essence of fear isn't as great during a tournament match because the opponents rely on the rules that were created.  A person can be #1 in the ring using their martial art but on the street....its a completely different battle because it's no holds barred.



brocklee, I PM'd you more of a response to not go off topic to far.  I do agree with you, some sport technique translates well into the street when adapted in a realistic sense.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

brocklee said:


> The essence of fear isn't as great during a tournament match because the opponents rely on the rules that were created. A person can be #1 in the ring using their martial art but on the street....its a completely different battle because it's no holds barred.


 
True

But then the same thing can be said for many non-sport martial arts that never get into a fight (and hopefully never will) outside of a sparring match in the school also under controlled conditions as well as environmentally favorable conditions as compared to what happens in the street. Somebody really hits you with intent to hurt you is a VERY different thing.

But as it has been said already, this is getting into stuff for another post.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> I can't imagine why anyone would be angry.
> 
> But I often "bash" wing chun as a "martial art."  It's just not very effective against an athletic, competent fighter.
> 
> ...




*sigh*

ok, I know I am gonna regret this, but why do you think that?


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## dungeonworks (Mar 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> *sigh*
> 
> ok, I know I am gonna regret this, but why do you think that?



I wonder about that line of thought as well.  I'd like to hear an insightful and  thoughtful response as well....especially when a much respected self defense system such as Krav Maga borrow heavy from Wing Chun striking and targets of opportunity.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> *sigh*
> 
> ok, I know I am gonna regret this, but why do you think that?


 
I would too but he said it on page 2 we are now on page 5 and he was asked the same thing at least twice and has not explained yet so I doubt there is an answer coming soon.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 27, 2008)

true enough


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## vankuen (Apr 1, 2008)

Hey guys, for some reason my old account isn't active anymore, and so I had to re-register.  Before I say what I'm about to say, let me first preface it by saying I study wing chun still.  Though I no longer care to learn "more" of it, having stopped just short of the weapons sets.  I was only interested in the empty handed techniques.  I'm 31 years old now, I was first introduced to wing chun when I was 13-14 years old.  So I've got what I feel a good feel for the system.  

Now...onto the OP's question.  The reason in general why I think that WC has a bad rap right now, is because everything in the public eye is for the most part crap.  There's no easier way to say it; no one has proven themselves or the style in a full contact professional atmosphere. Those that tried failed miserably. The videos on youtube are a joke.  Most of the time it's patty cake chi sao or two guys doing what I call chi sao sparring; very rarely do you see it in a real sparring match and when you do it's laughable.  

Most of the practitioners' claim superiority and street readiness, yet most of them are out of shape and have never been in a fight in their lives.  The forum talk is mostly about lineage wars, history lessons about all the "true" masters from long ago, or some other conversation having nothing to do with gaining the skills and attributes necessary for actual combat.  

Long story short: The quality of the majority of wing chun is circumstancial at best, the mentality of the majority of training is lackluster, and the ideals used are so doctrinated that people don't realize that SOME THINGS SIMPLY DO NOT WORK IN REAL LIFE.  Not every style has all the answers, wing chun included.  The fact that people defend this with their lives, and how it's so obvious with this style in relation to others today, are the reasons why wing chun has a bad rap.  

You have to remember a lot of people that complain about wing chun, might possibly have some experience with it as well, either getting training themselves or fighting people that trained in it.  Each person's experience will determine their perception of reality.  Most people's realities are that wing chun as a whole is crap.  Based on the internet and most of what I've seen in person that's true.  I can think of only two people that I know that I would not want to fight that study wing chun as a primary art.  One is an ex-bouncer who now teaches EBMAS, and another is my step-brother who learned WC in Hawaii and was the person who introduced it to me.  It's not the wing chun that makes them scary, it's their personal training ethic and attributes coupled with the structurally sound theories of wing chun.  They use the system, the system doesn't use them.  They also both learned to expunge that which no longer was found to be useful, and sought supplemental training in areas where wing chun was weak.  Maybe there's a trend there...who knows.


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## geezer (Apr 1, 2008)

vankuen said:


> I can think of only two people that I know that I would not want to fight that study wing chun as a primary art. One is an ex-bouncer who now teaches EBMAS, and another is my step-brother who learned WC in Hawaii and was the person who introduced it to me. It's not the wing chun that makes them scary, it's their personal training ethic and attributes coupled with the structurally sound theories of wing chun. They use the system, the system doesn't use them.
> 
> That's the long and short of it. But the truth is not everone can become a total warrior. I've met a few...Emin is one...and these guys could study tiddlywinks and still kick butt. Still for the rest of us mortals, Wing Chun/Tsun, etc. has a lot to offer. It isn't without its limitations, but I certainly feel I've gotten my money's worth...how about you?


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## vankuen (Apr 1, 2008)

I've never really had to pay money for my training, and when I did it was minor...so I've definitely gotten my money's worth.  

I've always found it useful, myself--even when I'm boxing or doing kickboxing.  Of course it's applied in little snippets here and there while working in between ranges.


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## Sagat (Apr 16, 2008)

Personally I think it's hated sometimes because Wing Chun claims to be the 'Ultimate self-defence' and always seems to claim to be such a strong fighting art, yet whenever there's a time to back up what they say, they can't because it's too brutal, 'we can't throw groin strikes or eye gauges' etc 

As it's been said before, MMA is probably the closest thing we have to real fighting, some arts have failed miserably in this, despite the fighters representing their martial art claim to be the 'world best' in their style. Guess what, Wing Chun was one of them. 

Might I add, UFC was once bare-knuckle and really was 'anything goes'. Vale-tudo had groin strikes allowed aswell.

Wing CHun failed to prove its effectiveness, hence why there are many WC bashers out there.

Wing Chun will always be glorified due to the fact it is linked with Bruce-Lee. Not everyone believes Bruce-Lee was the greatest fighter who ever lived, yet most of the WC students/masters love to brag he was, ergo more haters.

Sorry Vankuen, just realised you'd summed it up very well. Doesn't matter.


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## geezer (Apr 16, 2008)

Sagat said:


> Wing CHun failed to prove its effectiveness, hence why there are many WC bashers out there.


 
OK, now I'm going to tick off a lot of my friends, but I actually _agree_ with you...and my foundation is _Wing Tsun_. But the majority of the WC/WT guys I know are not fighters--just regular guys that really enjoy training WT/WC. And I'm a geezer not a fighter myself. When I was younger I did have to defend myself a few times and my wrestling background was at least as important as WT in saving my butt. Still, there are a few tough WT/WC bastards around. They don't fight professionally, and they use _whatever_ works. Based on their example, I still believe that WT, wisely applied, can be an integral part of a self defense "diet".


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## BFL (Apr 16, 2008)

Well said Geezer, well said........  )


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## Empty Hands (Apr 16, 2008)

geezer said:


> Based on their example, I still believe that WT, wisely applied, can be an integral part of a self defense "diet".



No doubt.  However, they weren't the visible, mouthy ones - the ones with the big mouths and inadequate skill to back it up were.  They were the ones that gave the bad reputation.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't know enough Wing Chun (yet) to make an educated statement based on my own opinion, but I can say that martial artists saying their style is the "best" is not a Wing Chun exclusive.  God, if I had just a penny for every TKD guy that thought TKD has it all...or some of the traditional Japanese Karate styles....and I won't mention the attitude of 80% of BJJ practitioners! LOL  

About the cage....it is still sport with rules and limitations.  Even the first UFC's had rules.  The whole "anything goes" was just marketing.  No biting, small joint manipulations, no eye gouging...ect.  Granted, they were few but they were still there...and I am not saying it hindered Wing Chun as before I said I am too new at it.  I have trained in Koeikan Karate, TKD, MMA/Grappling, and tried a few other styles.  Some have a well rounded curriculum but none master all.  It's the fighter not the label on his training.


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