# pain in my legs when sleeping



## KempoGuy06 (Oct 21, 2008)

Ok for some reason i have some pain in my legs when i sleep. It been going on for quite a few years. At first it was just a little pain, so i put a pillow between my legs thinking that because they were resting on top of one another it was cutting of circulation or something. now however the pain has gotten far worse. so bad that even with a pillow between my legs it does not help and the pain will actually wake me up in the middle of the night. 

has anyone ever heard of this? or have any suggestions? its starting to affect me when Im awake as well, to the point where it limits my physical movements.

Thanks for all the help in advance

B


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

You could have RLS - Restless Leg Syndrome, maybe you need to see a doctor.


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## bluekey88 (Oct 21, 2008)

My rule of thumb is, if something hurts, even a littel bit...and Advil doesn;t help, or it doesn't go away after a week or gtes worse over time...i see the doctor.

Given this has been gettign progressively worse over the course of years...i think a doctor is in order.

Peace,
Erik


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## kaizasosei (Oct 21, 2008)

could you tell us exactly where it hurts and how it feels?  is it worse after training or is does it still hurt even after a long period of rest?

the way you describe it, it doesn't really sound like ligament or muscle pain.  you may be right about it having to do with circulation... it's not the joints, right??  
  i would soak my legs in warm water for some time to try to further feel what it might be.  have you been to any tropical countries in the past years?

are there any particular stretches that you have trouble with?  can you bend your knees all the way or stay kneeling for several minutes?

do you tend to pull in one or both legs, or do you tend to stretch them out during sleep?

if you cannot figure it out soon, you should definately see a doctor and hear what he has to say..


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 21, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> could you tell us exactly where it hurts and how it feels?  is it worse after training or is does it still hurt even after a long period of rest?
> 
> the way you describe it, it doesn't really sound like ligament or muscle pain.  you may be right about it having to do with circulation... it's not the joints, right??
> i would soak my legs in warm water for some time to try to further feel what it might be.  have you been to any tropical countries in the past years?
> ...


the pain is in my knees. it feels like i have razors just stuck in my knees. 

i do have trouble with some stretches but i have been to a specialist in the past year and had an MRI done on my left knee. Nothing came up abnormal on the MRI. I was thinking of having another one done on it as well as one on the right just to be certain.

B


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## MJS (Oct 21, 2008)

I'd go and get a 2nd opinion.  Perhaps something was overlooked the first time.


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 21, 2008)

MJS said:


> I'd go and get a 2nd opinion.  Perhaps something was overlooked the first time.


would that involve getting more MRI's or does it mean i just take the ones i got to another doctors office?

B


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## terryl965 (Oct 21, 2008)

take what you have and see what the doctor says.


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> take what you have and see what the doctor says.


cool. I will do that.

B


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## stickarts (Oct 21, 2008)

There are so many things that can cause this. Definataely keep pursuing it until you get a solid answer.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 21, 2008)

ok, i started applying my astrological knowledge of the human body after hearing about your pain, and i came to the conclusion it may have something to do with diet-  i thought of gout, which as far as i know has to do with the buildup of uric acid in the body.   things like red meat, wine etc, will cause the pain.  may want to assess the situation with that in mind.

j


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## bluekey88 (Oct 21, 2008)

As someone who has gout (significant , chronic case)...I'm not so sure.

Gout tends to be episodic....you'll get atacks (sometime trioggered by food, sickness, injury, etc...but not always).  Hurts like nothing you cna imagine.  toes, feet, knees usually suffer first and the most.  Joints will get red, swollen and VERY tender to the touch.  The weight of a light bedsheet is enough to put you in tears.

the pain would not only be when you sleep and it would not be constant over years, it woudl wax and wain.

However, it's easy enough to rule out with bloodwork.  And, any uric acid deposits would show up on an x-ray or possibly and MRI.

Good luck in gettign a better diagnosis (the first step to better treatment).

Peace,
Erik


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## Sukerkin (Oct 21, 2008)

Whilst we would all like to help, the very best advice any of us can give is go to see the quack.  After all, you're still a young chap and it's not usual to have continual pain so finding out what it is as soon as you can is a good idea.

Could be early warning signs of gout, could be rheumatism, could be arthritus ... we just can't say from the other side of a computer screen.  See what your doctor thinks and go from there.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 21, 2008)

Us quacks use diagnostic algorhythms to rule out various nasty monstors, rule in more likely differentials, then attempt a course of treatment to see if we were right. If it gets better, I musta been spot on. If it doesn't, I missed, and use the information from the miss to inform the next step in care, ticking likely culprits off as I go.

Pain in the legs/knees at night with an MRI of the knee being negative for any site-specific findings in the knee tells me...it ain't the knees. That's out.

Other monstors in the closet that could cause it range from very simple and easily treatable, to some scary s**t. Starting from scary to not so scary, 

1. Cancer. Space occupying lesions in or along the spine can traction the perineurium, causing referred pain. "Pain that wakes the patient at night" is one of those red flag things in a history that compels a practiioner to get a white blood cell count, and double check their x-rays to make sure there are no signs of tumor processes. "Progessively getting worse" matches what we would worry about with a tumor process. As a male, prostate cancer that's metastized to spine is one of the big scaries. In your age group, however, not as likely as if you were 60.

2. Non-cancerous space occupying lesions. Fatty tumors or scar tissue in or around neural foramen can do the same thing. The bigger they get, the progessively worse the discomfort. Some learn to live with it; some have to be removed surgically. Depends on the patient motivation, and symptom severity.

3. Discogenic causation. Crappy discs in the back can be the space occupying lesion. Some get bad enough, that they gotta be cut out, or trimmed down. Others cause more irritation than real damage, and any number of stretches (MacKenzie protocol), therapies (rolfing, chiropractic, alexander movement therapy) can help resolve peripheral tensions, and reduce symtoms.

4. Segmental dysfunction. This can be anywhere from the waist, down, and cause the symptoms you describe. Couple of bones in the spine get too much tension between them, muscles jump on the bandwagon, fluid accumulation builds up in the joint space as an afterthought due to the lack of proper movement imbibing interstitial fluids, and starts to act as a transient space occupying lesion. The longer it goes without correction, the more entrenched it becomes, and the more symptoms you start to get. Blood flow to the nerve roots gets compromised, so nerve flow to the muscle gets compromised, so end organ function gets compromised (in this case, muscles in the legs), so your body sounds an alarm to get your attention that somethings wrong (aka, Pain). Easy enough to fix: Osteopathic stretching, or chiropractic adjusting, or seeing a PT for some PNF of the waist and lower extremities, or getting the focal tensions rubbed out by a massage therapist, or having some big swedish Helga shove her elbow into the space until it releases (akin to Travell's trigger points stuff, maintaining contact until the focal lesion gases out from ischemia), and so on.

5. Vascular dysfunction. Actually, shoulda put this one up towards the top. Blood flow into the legs can get occluded from atherosclerosis. Your doc should make the distinction between the parameters of how to invoke the discomfort -- dependent versus independent positions. Sometimes they gotta roto-rooter out the veins in your thigs and legs; sometimes you just gotta take aspirin or ginger or Chinese herbs for vascular syndromes.

6. Progressive kidney issues. Also should have put this one up at the top. Folks wwho are sneaking up on diabetes or toxicity syndromes affecting their kidneys will often get back pain, and occasionally present with leg pain. Not always actually worse at night, but just notice it more at night because we're just laying there without distractions. Blood and urine testing required to rule out scary monstors.

Most common culprit is joint dysfunction. The location at the knees smells like Sacro-Iliac (SI) joint to me. I'd bet that if you have someone poke a thumb over the SI joint, and sideways from it a little, you'll be quite tender. As a chiro, I've noticed that sacral segmental dysfunction tends to run in a pack with C2 intersegmental dysfunction. The second bone down in your neck; if your neck is tender right under the skull, or behind your lower jawbone towards the rear, esp if more on one side than the other, that's kinduva dead giveaway. Couple Chiro cracks should set you straight. Rolfers can do a muscle-stripping release version of same thing, called "floating the sacrum". Osteopaths and Physical Therapists also have their methods for slow stretching it out (as opposed to the quick stretching that occurs with a chiro crack). Almost useless is the bottle of pills your family MD is going to send you home with.

If your house is on fire, and the alarm goes off, how would you feel about a fireman who took the call, came by, only turned the alarm off, then left? That's what the painkillers do. In addition, they are linked to approx 11,000 deaths per year, while abreactions to properly prescribed medications is guestimated to be the 4th largest leading cause of death among adults in the US. Of course, if you like playing Russian Roulette with your health, it's certainly your perogative.

Avoid the solution that's not really a solution; leave the pills at the doctors office. Your body is talking to you; have the sense to listen. Your health effects everyone you know, and everything you do, so take care of it.

Be well,

D.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 21, 2008)

if there is swelling, it could be a case of arthritis(it often intensifies when the seasons change).  Best to go see a doctor, remove all the mystery and set your heart at ease.  

j


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## MJS (Oct 21, 2008)

KempoGuy06 said:


> would that involve getting more MRI's or does it mean i just take the ones i got to another doctors office?
> 
> B


 
It may involve more, I really don't know. I would however, take the results to another doc, have him/her check them out and see what they have to say.


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 22, 2008)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Us quacks use diagnostic algorhythms to rule out various nasty monstors, rule in more likely differentials, then attempt a course of treatment to see if we were right. If it gets better, I musta been spot on. If it doesn't, I missed, and use the information from the miss to inform the next step in care, ticking likely culprits off as I go.
> 
> Pain in the legs/knees at night with an MRI of the knee being negative for any site-specific findings in the knee tells me...it ain't the knees. That's out.
> 
> ...



i have had 2 x-rays in the past year. one of my left knee and one of my spine. Neither doctor had any concerns about abnormalities in the x-rays but i will have them double checked



> 2. Non-cancerous space occupying lesions. Fatty tumors or scar tissue in or around neural foramen can do the same thing. The bigger they get, the progessively worse the discomfort. Some learn to live with it; some have to be removed surgically. Depends on the patient motivation, and symptom severity.
> 
> 3. Discogenic causation. Crappy discs in the back can be the space occupying lesion. Some get bad enough, that they gotta be cut out, or trimmed down. Others cause more irritation than real damage, and any number of stretches (MacKenzie protocol), therapies (rolfing, chiropractic, alexander movement therapy) can help resolve peripheral tensions, and reduce symtoms.
> 
> 4. Segmental dysfunction. This can be anywhere from the waist, down, and cause the symptoms you describe. Couple of bones in the spine get too much tension between them, muscles jump on the bandwagon, fluid accumulation builds up in the joint space as an afterthought due to the lack of proper movement imbibing interstitial fluids, and starts to act as a transient space occupying lesion. The longer it goes without correction, the more entrenched it becomes, and the more symptoms you start to get. Blood flow to the nerve roots gets compromised, so nerve flow to the muscle gets compromised, so end organ function gets compromised (in this case, muscles in the legs), so your body sounds an alarm to get your attention that somethings wrong (aka, Pain). Easy enough to fix: Osteopathic stretching, or chiropractic adjusting, or seeing a PT for some PNF of the waist and lower extremities, or getting the focal tensions rubbed out by a massage therapist, or having some big swedish Helga shove her elbow into the space until it releases (akin to Travell's trigger points stuff, maintaining contact until the focal lesion gases out from ischemia), and so on.


 


> 5. Vascular dysfunction. Actually, shoulda put this one up towards the top. Blood flow into the legs can get occluded from atherosclerosis. Your doc should make the distinction between the parameters of how to invoke the discomfort -- dependent versus independent positions. Sometimes they gotta roto-rooter out the veins in your thigs and legs; sometimes you just gotta take aspirin or ginger or Chinese herbs for vascular syndromes.



i was taking some horse chestnut that i was a little skeptical about but that was actually helping (could have been in my head but what the hell)



> 6. Progressive kidney issues. Also should have put this one up at the top. Folks wwho are sneaking up on diabetes or toxicity syndromes affecting their kidneys will often get back pain, and occasionally present with leg pain. Not always actually worse at night, but just notice it more at night because we're just laying there without distractions. Blood and urine testing required to rule out scary monstors.


 


> Most common culprit is joint dysfunction. The location at the knees smells like Sacro-Iliac (SI) joint to me. I'd bet that if you have someone poke a thumb over the SI joint, and sideways from it a little, you'll be quite tender. As a chiro, I've noticed that sacral segmental dysfunction tends to run in a pack with C2 intersegmental dysfunction. The second bone down in your neck; if your neck is tender right under the skull, or behind your lower jawbone towards the rear, esp if more on one side than the other, that's kinduva dead giveaway. Couple Chiro cracks should set you straight. Rolfers can do a muscle-stripping release version of same thing, called "floating the sacrum". Osteopaths and Physical Therapists also have their methods for slow stretching it out (as opposed to the quick stretching that occurs with a chiro crack). Almost useless is the bottle of pills your family MD is going to send you home with.



the whole massage thing i will have to look into. I guess its good that my girlfriend happens to be a deep tissue massage therapist 



> If your house is on fire, and the alarm goes off, how would you feel about a fireman who took the call, came by, only turned the alarm off, then left? That's what the painkillers do. In addition, they are linked to approx 11,000 deaths per year, while abreactions to properly prescribed medications is guestimated to be the 4th largest leading cause of death among adults in the US. Of course, if you like playing Russian Roulette with your health, it's certainly your perogative.
> 
> Avoid the solution that's not really a solution; leave the pills at the doctors office. Your body is talking to you; have the sense to listen. Your health effects everyone you know, and everything you do, so take care of it.
> 
> ...



thanks again for all the info. i will look into it. on a side not though, i last night i slept with one of those memory foam cushions and a pillow between my legs and woke up to no pain in my legs. weird?

B


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