# Fellow Shotokan Karateka!



## chrissyp (Oct 18, 2018)

So I love Shotokan! I've train many marital arts, including Muay Thai, boxing, kung fu, among others.

The reason I feel in love with this style, is for me at least, it was a different atmosphere than you'd get in a full contact gym, and the teachings were very much out of the box from my previous training, most of which I found very useful.

As for my story, my first kickboxing coach was an old school kickboxer and shotokan guy. I had became good friends with him and his wife over the years. When they divorced, and he moved away, she started her own school and let me train for free, in exchange for teaching my thai boxing knowledge and help co instruct childrens classes.

So how did you get into Shotokan? Why do you personally love the art?


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## _Simon_ (Oct 21, 2018)

I don't train Shotokan and come from Kyokushin (which has Shotokan kata/background), but would love to hear from others what they like about Shotokan and also what they feel it's about as a style (what it emphasises). One of my favourite instructors is Sensei Rick Hotton, he is from Shotokan but incorporates aiki stuff in there and his own insights into his teaching.

Always loved the Shotokan kata too  (and have trained in quite a few of them, Pinan Yon, Enpi to perform, and Kanku Dai to watch being of my favourites)


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## Christopher Adamchek (Oct 21, 2018)

likewise i do not train Shotokan but Goju, however we have/use many shotokan elements and katas that our teacher blended into the school.


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## Papageno (Nov 19, 2018)

When I started, I just went to a dojo. At the time I wasn't aware of the different styles and it just happend to be Shotokan. But that was many years ago. Now I love Shotokan. Tried Goju for a few months out of curiousity, but got confused by the katas. So now I'm back in Shotokan.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2018)

I got into Shotokan because I didn't want to take Taekwondo. I eventually received my second-degree black belt in the system, and then moved on to more contact-heavy martial arts. I currently practice Bjj. Never a huge fan of the kata system, and I greatly prefer Bjj over my old Shotokan training. However, I appreciate the striking background I received from my karate practice.


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## DaveB (Nov 19, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I got into Shotokan because I didn't want to take Taekwondo. I eventually received my second-degree black belt in the system, and then moved on to more contact-heavy martial arts. I currently practice Bjj. Never a huge fan of the kata system, and I greatly prefer Bjj over my old Shotokan training. However, I appreciate the striking background I received from my karate practice.


Was it a non contact dojo?


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## DaveB (Nov 19, 2018)

I started learning Shotokan from a bookshop owner I met in my 18th summer.

Mostly just hitting pads then sparring behind the shop. Eventually I went to the school he trained at.

I enjoyed it from the start, the big whole body movements felt powerful and enjoyable to do. And I was lucky enough to learn about more subtle uses for those movements from the start, which put me on a long term path of deep study of the art.

It's still on going as we speak.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Was it a non contact dojo?



Actually no. We had full contact sparring (though it wasn't hard sparring), but I simply desired more contact.


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## Papageno (Nov 20, 2018)

[QUOTE="...It's still on going as we speak.[/QUOTE]

I studied Shotokan for 3,5 years when I was at the university. Then I quit for various reasons, graduated, got a job, met a girl etc.
Four years ago my daughter wanted to try it out. Waching her made me want to start again. Now we both have been at it for four years. And counting...


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## _Simon_ (Nov 20, 2018)

Papageno said:


> [QUOTE="...It's still on going as we speak.



I studied Shotokan for 3,5 years when I was at the university. Then I quit for various reasons, graduated, got a job, met a girl etc.
Four years ago my daughter wanted to try it out. Waching her made me want to start again. Now we both have been at it for four years. And counting...[/QUOTE]Awesome, love it


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## kitkatninja (Jan 10, 2019)

chrissyp said:


> ...So how did you get into Shotokan? Why do you personally love the art?



Shotokan was my first art when I started my MA journey back in the 90's.  To be honest, it was a choice of Shotokan or Wado and at the time due to work and studying, Shotokan fit in with my schedule.  6 years later I left shotokan (after gaining my 2nd Dan - changed associations after I gained my 1st Dan) due to moving...  Why do I love it?  Because it was a very good fit for me and it introduced me to the martial arts...  I don't train in it now as I have found another art that suits me better (as I grew as a person and as a martial artist, what I wanted out of a martial art changed as well), but that doesn't diminish my respect or love for the art...  I now do Tang Soo Do which has part of it's roots in Shotokan, but the association that I'm with now is more self-defence orientated rather than sports orientated which all of the Shotokan associations that I have tried in my area are...


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## Leviathan (May 6, 2019)

I sent to a shotokan karate dojo not beeing aware of the various styles. I wanted to practice some martial art. For a while I loved it because it made me fit, gave me self confidence, mentally woke me up, I got many friends and it was a very welcome experience for a nerd. My colleagues at the job who didn't know I had enrolled in a karate class noticed some clear change. 

Over time though I got more and more tired of it as I realized that the artistic aspect had squeezed out the martial component: useless uke techniques, poor training methods, pointless katas etc etc etc. 

Switching to Muay Thai confirmed this and made me see the light. Now I can't figure out going back to shotokan.


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## Tez3 (May 6, 2019)

I think it's always worth remembering that even in the same styles classes can be very different. the Shotokan places I know of are full contact and not at all 'arty'. To categorise a style just by the place you go to or have been to would be quite wrong. 
It's like pubs, we have many different ones, thousands in fact, just because you go into one that has loud music doesn't mean you should now think all the pubs have loud music.


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## Leviathan (May 6, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> I think it's always worth remembering that even in the same styles classes can be very different. the Shotokan places I know of are full contact and not at all 'arty'. To categorise a style just by the place you go to or have been to would be quite wrong.
> It's like pubs, we have many different ones, thousands in fact, just because you go into one that has loud music doesn't mean you should now think all the pubs have loud music.



Believe me I have been to countless seminars with many different trainers and nearly all were waaaaay more artists than martialists. I was in 2 different dojos that had several trainers each and it was the same stuff.


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## wab25 (May 6, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Believe me I have been to countless seminars with many different trainers and nearly all were waaaaay more artists than martialists.


How do you define your terms artists and martialists? Specifically, what are you seeing that makes these guys an artist and not a martialist? What would they have to change in order to meet your definition of martialist?


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## Leviathan (May 7, 2019)

wab25 said:


> How do you define your terms artists and martialists? Specifically, what are you seeing that makes these guys an artist and not a martialist? What would they have to change in order to meet your definition of martialist?



Martial serves a fight / combat purpose

Art has no purpose in itself, it's just supposed to be beautiful and please for itself

Many techniques and much practice in shotokan is claimed to be martial but is completely pointless in a halfway realistic fight. You may say it is ******** but let's be nice and call it artistic instead. Need some examples:

- katas: are to a fight sport what blood letting used to be to medicine: useless at best, more often counterproductive. I guess they were dumped from a dance class - for obvious reasons - and got recycled in some dojo a long time ago. Ok that previous sentence was ironic (but only that sentence).
- blocking a Mae Geri with a gedan barai: underarm vs leg, how insane is it...
- shuto uke, age uke, ushi uke, you name it: too slow to be of any use, generally trained while stepping forward (a nonsense). You instinctively perform other moves in a sparring to block punches.
- oi tsuki: too lame, as realistic in a fight as a unicorn on a farm.

I could go on this way for a while.


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## Papageno (May 7, 2019)

It sounds like there's some kind of misunderstanding here. Kihon and Kata are extremely formal types of training. This is where we learn the basics of how we do things. In Kumite we try it out. It doesn't mean executing it exactly the same way; we adapt it to the situation. Everything we do, every punch and kick, block and move, is in our Kata. But Kata is about form and style. In a fight you don't stand still in a zenkutsu dachi. You adapt all the technics according to the current situation. Shuto uke could be an effective block when you're moving to the side and counter gyaku with a quick twist of your hips. Uchi uke too slow in a fight? Yeah, of course, if you do it as in the Kata. But that's not the idea. In Kata and Kihon you pull from your opposite hip, in a fight that's too slow so you execute the block from your guard. Same thing with punches. You don't pull your fist back to the hip before striking; that would only announce your attack. No, you strike directly from your guard in front of you.

As for oizuki, it let's you take a distance. You attack your opponent and close the distance quickly and strike. But most often you'll perform a nagashizuki instead. The idea is the same, but you hit as soon as you can long before your foot has landed. Again, the idea is to close the distance quickly and surprise you opponent.

And if you instinctively perform other moves to block in a fight? Good! Whatever works, right?


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## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> - katas: are to a fight sport what blood letting used to be to medicine: useless at best, more often counterproductive. I guess they were dumped from a dance class - for obvious reasons - and got recycled in some dojo a long time ago. Ok that previous sentence was ironic (but only that sentence).




it sounds as if your martial arts education is severely lacking if you don't know what kata is for. You obviously don't know what Bunkai is as well, you know instead of Shotokan you really should just do boxing or a combat sport, it's hypocritical to 'train' Shotokan and then rubbish everything it is.


What is Kata? | Iain Abernethy

Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy

What are the true applications of Kata? | Iain Abernethy

From here Articles | Iain Abernethy


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## Papageno (May 7, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> What is Kata? | Iain Abernethy
> 
> Bunkai - Karate's forgotten 95% | Iain Abernethy
> 
> ...



Thanks for these links. Lots of goodies here.


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## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

Papageno said:


> Thanks for these links. Lots of goodies here.




Isn't there just! So much to learn not just from Iain but other's too. Iain's' seminars are amazing too.


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## Tez3 (May 7, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Art has no purpose in itself, it's just supposed to be beautiful and please for itself




*The purpose of art is washing the dust of daily life off our souls. – Pablo Piccasso*


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## wab25 (May 7, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Martial serves a fight / combat purpose
> 
> Art has no purpose in itself, it's just supposed to be beautiful and please for itself
> 
> ...


Sounds like you don't like arts that have katas or forms. I haven't done Muay Thai, but I did some boxing. In boxing, we didn't have katas. We had drills. We had shadow boxing. We practiced our combos solo, on bags and with a partner who had mits. Absolutely everything we did had direct practical application in the ring... Well except for all the jump rope work. I have never seen a boxer jumping rope in the middle of a fight... Why waste their time? Well, then there is the speed bag... no boxer actually punches their opponent the same way they hit a speed bag. Oh, I almost forgot... the sit ups with the medicine ball. It might be ok for a grappler, but boxers never do sit ups in a boxing match.... Then there were the silly stepping lessons, where we had to step the right direction with the right foot, no one cares how you step, only how hard you can hit...


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## Leviathan (May 13, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Sounds like you don't like arts that have katas or forms. I haven't done Muay Thai, but I did some boxing. In boxing, we didn't have katas. We had drills. We had shadow boxing. We practiced our combos solo, on bags and with a partner who had mits. Absolutely everything we did had direct practical application in the ring... Well except for all the jump rope work. I have never seen a boxer jumping rope in the middle of a fight... Why waste their time? Well, then there is the speed bag... no boxer actually punches their opponent the same way they hit a speed bag. Oh, I almost forgot... the sit ups with the medicine ball. It might be ok for a grappler, but boxers never do sit ups in a boxing match.... Then there were the silly stepping lessons, where we had to step the right direction with the right foot, no one cares how you step, only how hard you can hit...



I don't like katas or forms indeed. 

It's like signing up for a Spanish course and realizing they're teaching you Romanian. Questioning this they insist that they're teaching Spanish but even after a few years of "Spanish" you understand absolutely nothing when trying to speak with a spaniard of a Latino. 

Some then claim it's still the right thing to do because Romanian and Spanish are related as both stem from Latin. You just have to adapt what you've learned. Yeah sure, can you explain me that one more time while I'm sniffing a line of coke? It'll make perfect sense then. 

By the way I have nothing against shadow boxing as long as it remains some warm up activity.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 13, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> I don't like katas or forms indeed.
> 
> It's like signing up for a Spanish course and realizing they're teaching you Romanian. Questioning this they insist that they're teaching Spanish but even after a few years of "Spanish" you understand absolutely nothing when trying to speak with a spaniard of a Latino.
> 
> ...


I hadn't been paying attention to this thread, so just saw your last post, and this one. Before I address your last post, I want to address this one-coke doesn't magically make things make sense. And shadow boxing has a purpose only if your skilled enough _and_ imaginative enough to make use of it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 13, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Martial serves a fight / combat purpose
> 
> Art has no purpose in itself, it's just supposed to be beautiful and please for itself



Art actually has a lot of purposes. I could literally write a dissertation on it, so let me know if you want me to expand, but I'll simplify it to: a way to communicate between peoples, a way to explore, nurture and understand different perspectives. There's way more than that but I'll expand if you ask me to.


> katas: are to a fight sport what blood letting used to be to medicine: useless at best, more often counterproductive. I guess they were dumped from a dance class - for obvious reasons - and got recycled in some dojo a long time ago. Ok that previous sentence was ironic (but only that sentence).


 Katas are basically fighting drills. It's combining multiple different ways of attacking, or footwork, together to give you a drill to practice. In boxing "jab cross hook uppercut" would be a kata. In fencing "Advance retreat retreat advance retreat retreat fleche" is a kata. Notice one ignores footwork, and one is only footwork. From what I know of shotokan, their kata trains both strikes and footwork. How is drilling those useless or counterproductive?


> - blocking a Mae Geri with a gedan barai: underarm vs leg, how insane is it...


That's a very legitimate way to grab a roundhouse kick. If you can't accomplish it, that's on you. You either haven't trained it enough, or haven't used it in sparring enough.


> shuto uke, age uke, ushi uke, you name it: too slow to be of any use, generally trained while stepping forward (a nonsense). You instinctively perform other moves in a sparring to block punches.


 I wasn't sure what these are, but from a quick google search, I saw two very quick uses for them. The first is being behind timing, a way to protect yourself. The second is as a jamming technique, which would involve stepping forward, stopping the persons attack before it gets serious, and using a short-range counter. I can get how this may not work in sparring though, since a lot of schools have rules for sparring that involve no elbows/knees/throws, which is what I would follow a jamming technique with.



> oi tsuki: too lame, as realistic in a fight as a unicorn on a farm.


 From a quick google, this looks like either a jab, or a lunging straight punch? Are you suggesting those aren't effective?



> I could go on this way for a while.


  Please do. None of what you stated actually seems impractical. Maybe you just went to a bad school where they didn't explain it all properly?


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## DaveB (May 13, 2019)

In fairness to Leviathan, many of the older Shotokan orgs use kata as a selling tool without ever exploring their application.

I had hoped that after near 2 decades of work on yhe subject being available, most schools would have evolved. But in the olden days kata were a talking point, not a  guideline for training. The mystery surrounding them was a way for the teacher to look like some keeper of deeper knowledge when the truth was that almost no one under the Shotokan banner had the first clue why you should practice the "defensive" shuto uke while moving forward.

I was lucky to start training pnly a couple  of years before most of the work in the field of kata application was just starting to be published. That being said, there's really no excuse for anyone training post 2010 to not know how to use kata. The internet is the most amazing information resource in human history and it has been filled with kata application.

So given that Leviathan has only found his way now to a potential resource to understand kata after he has abandoned the practice it makes me wonder if deriding TMA wasn't his main reason to find this forum?

No judgement if it is, I don't mind a good argument. But I am curious why he (you) never went looking for answers online when you were training in Shotokan?

Anyway, this is one of the better video examples of the potential of kata.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 13, 2019)

DaveB said:


> In fairness to Leviathan, many of the older Shotokan orgs use kata as a selling tool without ever exploring their application.
> 
> I had hoped that after near 2 decades of work on yhe subject being available, most schools would have evolved. But in the olden days kata were a talking point, not a  guideline for training. The mystery surrounding them was a way for the teacher to look like some keeper of deeper knowledge when the truth was that almost no one under the Shotokan banner had the first clue why you should practice the "defensive" shuto uke while moving forward.
> 
> ...


Without even looking any further, shoto uke is a fairly useful block on its own. Beyond that if you look at @Tez3 's links any questions should be answered. If you or @Leviathan don't understand the purpose of a movement, after watching ian abernathy's stuff, simply post here and I'm sure someone can help you by either knowing it or helping you figure it out.


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## Flying Crane (May 13, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> I don't like katas or forms indeed.
> 
> It's like signing up for a Spanish course and realizing they're teaching you Romanian. Questioning this they insist that they're teaching Spanish but even after a few years of "Spanish" you understand absolutely nothing when trying to speak with a spaniard of a Latino.
> 
> ...


It’s nothing at all like that, actually.


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## Buka (May 13, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Sounds like you don't like arts that have katas or forms. I haven't done Muay Thai, but I did some boxing. In boxing, we didn't have katas. We had drills. We had shadow boxing. We practiced our combos solo, on bags and with a partner who had mits. Absolutely everything we did had direct practical application in the ring... Well except for all the jump rope work. I have never seen a boxer jumping rope in the middle of a fight... Why waste their time? Well, then there is the speed bag... no boxer actually punches their opponent the same way they hit a speed bag. Oh, I almost forgot... the sit ups with the medicine ball. It might be ok for a grappler, but boxers never do sit ups in a boxing match.... Then there were the silly stepping lessons, where we had to step the right direction with the right foot, no one cares how you step, only how hard you can hit...



I can't begin to tell you how much I love this post. And how quickly I'm stealing every one of your great points. And I don't even practice kata.


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## DaveB (May 14, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Without even looking any further, shoto uke is a fairly useful block on its own. Beyond that if you look at @Tez3 's links any questions should be answered. If you or @Leviathan don't understand the purpose of a movement, after watching ian abernathy's stuff, simply post here and I'm sure someone can help you by either knowing it or helping you figure it out.


Lol, thanks, but I have a fairly comprehensive  understanding of Shotokan kata application, that developed in parallel to Abernathy's work, not from it. I agree with much of his reasoning, but we differ on a few points.

I lean more towards Vince Morris's technique.

I think you may have misread my post.


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## dvcochran (May 14, 2019)

chrissyp said:


> So I love Shotokan! I've train many marital arts, including Muay Thai, boxing, kung fu, among others.
> 
> The reason I feel in love with this style, is for me at least, it was a different atmosphere than you'd get in a full contact gym, and the teachings were very much out of the box from my previous training, most of which I found very useful.
> 
> ...


Welcome to the forum. I hope you hang around for a good long time.

I primarily study TKD. When I started in 1982, there was only a TKD school and a very small Shotokan school in my small town. I had friends at both schools and, starting around early red/brown belt we would regularly get together and spar and talk about technique differences. We practice Pyong Ahn forms and we were always surprised how similar they are to the Heian forms. 
Good times.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 14, 2019)

DaveB said:


> Lol, thanks, but I have a fairly comprehensive  understanding of Shotokan kata application, that developed in parallel to Abernathy's work, not from it. I agree with much of his reasoning, but we differ on a few points.
> 
> I lean more towards Vince Morris's technique.
> 
> I think you may have misread my post.


Yeah i reread it and i think you're right. That's what happens when i post at 430am when i cant sleep


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2019)

Just a small point but I do believe relevant, Iain's name is 'Abernethy'.


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## DaveB (May 14, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> Just a small point but I do believe relevant, Iain's name is 'Abernethy'.



Y'know I've been spelling that wrong for years. Just realized it yesterday.


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## Tez3 (May 14, 2019)

DaveB said:


> Y'know I've been spelling that wrong for years. Just realized it yesterday.




If it's any consolation you aren't the only one, many who post on here do, perhaps Abernethy isn't so common outside the UK. It's a Scottish surname.


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## Leviathan (May 17, 2019)

DaveB said:


> In fairness to Leviathan, many of the older Shotokan orgs use kata as a selling tool without ever exploring their application.
> 
> I had hoped that after near 2 decades of work on yhe subject being available, most schools would have evolved. But in the olden days kata were a talking point, not a  guideline for training. The mystery surrounding them was a way for the teacher to look like some keeper of deeper knowledge when the truth was that almost no one under the Shotokan banner had the first clue why you should practice the "defensive" shuto uke while moving forward.
> 
> ...



Hi,

Thanks for the video. Interesting indeed but it triggers a few questions in my mind:

- Are these shotokan katas? They don't seem familiar to me.

- Did those MMA fighters learn those techniques from katas or is it just a coincidence that what they did in the ring was similar to a move in a given kata? Does it speak for the katas or for the guy who made the video? I wouldn't be surprised if you could make up a similar video MMA - folcloric dance. 

- if the purpose of katas was to mimick a fight as those shown in the video then shotokan training has gotten totally mad: shotokan is to full contact what a polar bear is to the desert. Shotokan kumites are light contact, shotokan is much more a gymnastic than a real martial art (said the founder of kyokushin). But well, maybe these are katas from full contact karate, not shotokan.


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## Leviathan (May 17, 2019)

Double post


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## wab25 (May 17, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Are these shotokan katas?


Much of what was shown in the video can be found in shotokan kata. I have posted this link before, but it is an excellent article on what is really in the karate katas. 

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the video. Interesting indeed but it triggers a few questions in my mind:
> 
> ...


It’s OK that you do not understand kata.  Really, it is.


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## Star Dragon (May 17, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I don't train Shotokan and come from Kyokushin (which has Shotokan kata/background), but would love to hear from others what they like about Shotokan and also what they feel it's about as a style (what it emphasises). One of my favourite instructors is Sensei Rick Hotton, he is from Shotokan but incorporates aiki stuff in there and his own insights into his teaching.
> 
> Always loved the Shotokan kata too  (and have trained in quite a few of them, Pinan Yon, Enpi to perform, and Kanku Dai to watch being of my favourites)



It was a long time ago that I trained in Shotokan (after a preliminary phase of Kyokushinkai), my principal art now being Parker Kenpo. However, what I took away from Shotokan is an emphasis on power generation and on precision of movement. - I see so much sloppiness in Kenpo, it makes me heel-palm my own head!

I am with you in regards to Hotton-sensei, his interpretation recaptures much of Karate's more internal aspects of the kind that can sometimes still be found in Okinawan styles, but that were generally lost once the art became a sport.

Talking about the Shotokan kata, I recommend comparing them to their equivalents in other (especially in older) Shorin-ryu based styles. They still carry much useful information even in their modern version, *if* you understand how to read them - however, at the time I was involved with Shotokan, even the interpretations offered by JKA head instructors were mostly hogwash. Fortunately, things have changed a bit since then and you don't have to look very far nowadays for useful examples of proper bunkai.

I particularly like what Mr. Gimberline makes out of the Shotokan forms.


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## Leviathan (May 17, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> It’s OK that you do not understand kata.  Really, it is.



But trying to make something out of nothing isn't.


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## Flying Crane (May 17, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> But trying to make something out of nothing isn't.


Please enlighten me.


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## DaveB (May 17, 2019)

Leviathan said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks for the video. Interesting indeed but it triggers a few questions in my mind:
> 
> ...



The founder of Kyokushin also said that Funakoshi, Shotokan's founder, taught him the most.

Some of the kata were Shotokan, some Goju ryu, but the point was more that these are examples of how kata movement translates to fighting.

The limit is only how you choose to train and develop. 

The MMA fighters most likely didn't learn the movements from kata, but I'm not sure why that's important? If I hook punch in my kata and you hook punch in the ring after doing thai boxing, my kata still has a hook punch and it can still be used in the ring.

And yes, you can take fighting movements, remove the opponents and have something like a kata... because that's what a kata is. 

Most arts drill movements without a partner to some degree. Kata was just a way to consolidate and practice effective movements so that important lessons were not forgotten. 

And as mentioned before, how one trains any art is not the art its self. Light touch kumite is a choice. Nothing about the art of Shotokan prevents your old dojo sparring full contact.

If your muay thai school only trained fitness and light touch sparring, it would still be a muay thai school.


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## DaveB (May 18, 2019)

Star Dragon said:


> ...
> Talking about the Shotokan kata, I recommend comparing them to their equivalents in other (especially in older) Shorin-ryu based styles.



There's no such thing. It's a common misconception, but the founders of the various shorin ryu styles were all juniors of Funakoshi with the one exception of (i think) Chosin Chibana, who was his contemporary.

What Funakoshi taught in Japan was an Itosu-fication of the karate passed down from Bushi Matsumura,  the kings bodyguard.

What people call Shorin ryu is just Itosu karate. Matsumura refused to teach Itosu (although I've heard that he may have changed his tune later on).

The only style of karate that ive heard of that might be older than Shotokan and still going in the modern era is the style that Matsumura taught his family. The man who started teaching this publicly called it Shorin ryu because that was what everyone else was doing, but its so rare and different its not what people mean when they say Shorin ryu.


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## Carlos Joaquim (May 22, 2019)

Hi guys, I am new here. My name is Carlos and I am wondering if anyone could help me find a good Shotokan class during the day?
I work in Central London and would like to go back into training and a daytime class would be just ideal for me. Any ideas?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2019)

DaveB said:


> In fairness to Leviathan, many of the older Shotokan orgs use kata as a selling tool without ever exploring their application.
> 
> I had hoped that after near 2 decades of work on yhe subject being available, most schools would have evolved. But in the olden days kata were a talking point, not a  guideline for training. The mystery surrounding them was a way for the teacher to look like some keeper of deeper knowledge when the truth was that almost no one under the Shotokan banner had the first clue why you should practice the "defensive" shuto uke while moving forward.
> 
> ...


I suspect my Shotokan instructor was frustrated with this approach. I only trained Shotokan with him for several months (he was also my Judo instructor, and that was my focus), but I don't recall ever learning or seeing a single kata. I think he'd had enough of the approach you refer to, and had decided to teach without them, though that's just supposition.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2019)

Tez3 said:


> If it's any consolation you aren't the only one, many who post on here do, perhaps Abernethy isn't so common outside the UK. It's a Scottish surname.


I can't remember ever seeing it before I ran into Iain's name in print. For that matter, his first name is unusual out here, too. I still can't type "Iain" correctly - I always have to go back and fix it.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 22, 2019)

Carlos Joaquim said:


> Hi guys, I am new here. My name is Carlos and I am wondering if anyone could help me find a good Shotokan class during the day?
> I work in Central London and would like to go back into training and a daytime class would be just ideal for me. Any ideas?
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


Hey, Carlos - welcome to Martial Talk!

In general, you'll get better responses by starting a new thread with an appropriate title, so folks who aren't reading this thread will see what you're looking for.


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## DaveB (May 22, 2019)

Carlos Joaquim said:


> Hi guys, I am new here. My name is Carlos and I am wondering if anyone could help me find a good Shotokan class during the day?
> I work in Central London and would like to go back into training and a daytime class would be just ideal for me. Any ideas?
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions.


Hi Carlos, I train at a good little class in Marylebone that comes with some great perks in the training.

If that's too far west I may know one or two other good places.

Private message me and we can discuss.


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## DaveB (May 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect my Shotokan instructor was frustrated with this approach. I only trained Shotokan with him for several months (he was also my Judo instructor, and that was my focus), but I don't recall ever learning or seeing a single kata. I think he'd had enough of the approach you refer to, and had decided to teach without them, though that's just supposition.



Do you mean frustrated with teaching kata for performance art, or with teaching karate based on kata coded principles?

I'd be very surprised if it's the latter.

Perhaps you can get him to clarify his views for us to discuss?


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## Headhunter (May 22, 2019)

Ah great another thread that's turned into a traditional art vs combat sport thread. If people don't like kata that's up to them. If people like it that's up to them. Kata is never going to be extinguished from karate or whatever and is it useful for fighting? To a degree yes, it's a learning tool nothing more. Can you defend yourself by doing nothing but kata? No but I don't think there's any instructor who claims that you can. To me kata is just movements to practice to get a good sweat up and to flow through stuff without thinking. When I'm working mine it's so tuned into memory I don't even need to think when I'm doing it I can just go to move from the next instinctively


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## Carlos Joaquim (May 22, 2019)

Hi guys, I am new here.
I am looking to go back to training Shotokan.
Does anyone know a daytime class somewhere in London? 
I work in Central London and have the time just can't find the place. Anyone who can help me?


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## DaveB (May 23, 2019)

Carlos Joaquim said:


> Hi guys, I am new here.
> I am looking to go back to training Shotokan.
> Does anyone know a daytime class somewhere in London?
> I work in Central London and have the time just can't find the place. Anyone who can help me?


If by daytime you mean during working hours, you won't find one.

Classes are nearly always evenings to catch a wider audience.


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## Flying Crane (May 23, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Ah great another thread that's turned into a traditional art vs combat sport thread. If people don't like kata that's up to them. If people like it that's up to them. Kata is never going to be extinguished from karate or whatever and is it useful for fighting? To a degree yes, it's a learning tool nothing more. Can you defend yourself by doing nothing but kata? No but I don't think there's any instructor who claims that you can. To me kata is just movements to practice to get a good sweat up and to flow through stuff without thinking. When I'm working mine it's so tuned into memory I don't even need to think when I'm doing it I can just go to move from the next instinctively


Interesting what you say about doing the kata without thinking/ using automatic memory.  What I find is that yes, the choreography itself is something that I do not need to actively think about in order to remember.  But I do think very deliberately about every move, as I do them.  If I don’t do that then I miss a lot of details and I don’t get much benefit from the practice.

I try to make sure every movement is as correct as I can make it, and don’t just race to the end of the form for the sake of completing the form.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 24, 2019)

DaveB said:


> Do you mean frustrated with teaching kata for performance art, or with teaching karate based on kata coded principles?
> 
> I'd be very surprised if it's the latter.
> 
> Perhaps you can get him to clarify his views for us to discuss?


He passed away many years ago, and he and I never discussed his thoughts on kata - it never came up since he didn't teach them. We talked a lot more about rock climbing - he was my dad's primary climbing partner for years, and he and I spent more time hanging out (literally) together on cliff faces than we did training MA.

EDIT: Forgot to finish my reply. I suspect he was frustrated with the over-selling of the importance of kata, making the kata more important than the actual techniques and application, which happened some back then.


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