# repeated devastation



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 1, 2007)

Hi all,

So I've been playing with repeated devastation.  The tech. starts with bringing the hands up over your head and striking the attacker's face.

Trouble is I have trouble reaching the head if my partner is applying any sort of real pressure.  And if I _do _reach the head, it's with no reliable force at all.

Further troubling is the note that while I'm flailing for the head, I lose my window as my attacker tightens up and cranks the full nelson.

Anybody have any thoughts or guidance here?

Thanks


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## michaeledward (Apr 1, 2007)

You don't need a lot of power in that move. If your hands get near his face, that is going to create a bit of a distraction. (If you know Grasp of Death - the pinch (horse bite) is similar - it doesn't need to create a great amount of pain to get the right reaction.)


Remember, this move (the strikes to the attackers face) is combined with a sinking, step out with your left. You are moving down, as your hands come up. Keep your elbows in on the initial move. 

Once your hands are up (hopefully, fist in his face) drop our elbows down (hard) on the three-nine line to distrub the grip. 

Then thrust your hands down to release the grip, as you draw your left foot in, and stand up, striking the bad guys nose with a rear head butt.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> Hi all,
> 
> So I've been playing with repeated devastation. The tech. starts with bringing the hands up over your head and striking the attacker's face.
> 
> ...


If its on its on. Try to get the tech started before he can manipulate you.
Sean


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## dubljay (Apr 1, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> If its on its on. Try to get the tech started before he can manipulate you.
> Sean



That's how I see it too... I'm not going to stand there and wait to be put into a full nelson.  I'm going to start moving as soon as I feel what's going on.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2007)

dubljay said:


> That's how I see it too... I'm not going to stand there and wait to be put into a full nelson. I'm going to start moving as soon as I feel what's going on.


I will relate a second hand account. When asked what he would do in a certain hold (all bent over), Ed Parker's first word were, "First of all you are not going to get me into this position, but here's what I would do if you had.."


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## Ray (Apr 1, 2007)

I've found myself turning my hands around to deliver eyepoke/claws instead of back knuckles.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2007)

Ray said:


> I've found myself turning my hands around to deliver eyepoke/claws instead of back knuckles.


Even that may be too little too late against a skilled grappler.
Sean


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## Blindside (Apr 1, 2007)

Raising your hands up to strike back will allow a half-way intelligent attacker to lock the full-nelson in even deeper.  (Remember, you are the moron who let himself get stuck this in this spot.)  As a result you won't be able to bring your hands back down to break the grab.  As far as I'm concerned this technique is fatally flawed.   

Saying that you wouldn't let yourself get this far is fine, but the technique is for a full nelson, not an attempted full nelson.  You have other techniques for the earlier stages of the attack.

Lamont


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## michaeledward (Apr 2, 2007)

something I have heard ... 

One method of avoiding the lock-in your attacker is attempting, is to place the backs of your hands against your forehead - the back of your right hand against your forehead (palm out), the back of your left hand against your right palm, (palm out).

This also puts your hand and arms on that 3-9 line for the downward elbow strike I described in my earlier post. 


One more thought ... the moves I am discussing here are really part of the technique 'Scraping Hoof'. The 'Repeated Devistation' portion of the technique is the outward elbow strikes to the aggressors' head (reverse of Twirling Wings). Many of us have learned the 'Scraping Hoof(s) / Repeated Devistation' techniques as a combination because that is the way they are presented in Long 3. My comments here are taken from instructions received on Scraping Hoof, and would be equally true for the combination of techniques.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Apr 2, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> If its on its on. Try to get the tech started before he can manipulate you.
> Sean


 
There are only two techniques in the entire EPAK system with attacks listed as "attempted" (if you follow Infinite Insights as some people do not).  This ain't one of them.  The hold is on.


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## pete (Apr 2, 2007)

the way i understand it, the hold is on and you are still being pulled rearward and upward.... as opposed to the lock being applied, his fingers interwoven, when you'd be pushed forward and downward.


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## Doc (Apr 2, 2007)

This technique, and it's physical relative "Scrapping Hoofs," are a result of certain "entertainment grappling" techniques being infused into the commercial system to "flesh it out."

Oddly the technique is dysfunctional, not because of the possible response, but because of the actual attack itself. Although there are specific body mechanics that can overcome the "full nelson" type assault, the attack itself is not possible without full cooperation of the victim, or unless they are semiconscious or present or induced "Disorientation."

"Startle Reflex Function" in this area will mechanically draw the arms down with extreme positive alignment, and the physical impossibility of forcing them up to obtain the lock.

It is actually possible to raise a persons entire body from the floor without  the arms moving to allow the lock. The induced "Protective Positive Posture" through "Induced Startle Reflex" is one of the anatomically strongest appendage positions in human anatomy.

Moreover, this attack is unique in that to effect this lock requires the attacker to misalign himself at the shoulders, and the linear axis of the entire vertebrae in the cervical, thoracic and lumbar regions, along with the Pelvic Girdle. Without the aforementioned conditions of semiconsciousness or induced "Disorientation," this attack comes as close to being nearly impossible as any. There are other techniques infused from the same source, that share nearly the same "physical impossible execution parameters."

A couple of simple experiments should eliminate these two techniques (Scrapping Hoofs & Repeated Devastation) from most training.

 Have someone stand naturally.
 Do not tell them what you're going to do.
 Simple tell them to naturally resist  and stiffen their body against
   being manipulated.

 Than attempt to effect a "full nelson" from the rear.
 You may move as quickly or forcefully as you wish, and as your
   experiment partner will allow.

You will find their "Startle Reflex" at the rib-cage will trigger a response that draws the arms down and tight braced against their own rib-cage. the body will instinctively align and protect itself, and it will be impossible to move or raise their arms.

The experiment may be modified by having the "victim" casually place his hands on top of his head, as if talking to someone to give the attacker what appears to be an advantage. You will find it is still not possible.

The unique aspect of the attacker being forced to misalign himself, in conjunction with the "Startle Reflex" reaction of the victim, coupled with the triggered "Extreme Positive Alignment" of the victim, makes this attack impossible without "present or induced Disorientation."


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 2, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> There are only two techniques in the entire EPAK system with attacks listed as "attempted" (if you follow Infinite Insights as some people do not). This ain't one of them. The hold is on.


So we should wait?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 2, 2007)

I know right off the bat that the all y'all ain't gonna like my input.

In my grandiose know-it-allness, there are a few techs in kenpo that I have opted to delete. CATEGORY COMPLETION is not a good enough reason to me to pass on silliness to subsequent generations. This is one of those techs where I just say, "Drop it. Nothing lost. If they really want to know it for histories sake, look it up on a tape."

I've had some guys try to put Nelsons on me as I've been throwing their buddies out of bars in asundry holds and grabs. With my hands and feet occupied, my balance concentrating elsewhere (maintaining the extrication momentum), and my brain just not paying that much attention to their incidental attacks while choking out their buddies in running versions of Standing Sleepers, I have not yet had someone successfully place me in this position. Not even in dogpiles. Not even wrestlers.

If you're awake, and have enough gumption in your own veins to scratch your behind, this tech is superfluous. The time and energy spent in "getting it right" would serve you better spent throwing rear overhand rights on a heavy-bag.

Have at it,

Dave


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 2, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I know right off the bat that the all y'all ain't gonna like my input.
> 
> In my grandiose know-it-allness, there are a few techs in kenpo that I have opted to delete. CATEGORY COMPLETION is not a good enough reason to me to pass on silliness to subsequent generations. This is one of those techs where I just say, "Drop it. Nothing lost. If they really want to know it for histories sake, look it up on a tape."
> 
> ...


Wow, I'm telling!


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Apr 2, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> So we should wait?


 
For training purposes I'd say yes.  But that's a Ju Jitsu mentality where sometimes we'd train from the worse positions we could think of even if it was practically infeasible for us to end up there.  A full Nelson ranks up there.  I don't know about all of this impossible stuff.  I've seen alot that is deemed impossible and the full nelson is something I've seen more than once in its completed stage...and not while someone was letting them do it.  So where conventinal knowledge says no my experiences say yes and I can't pretend to have not seen the impossible.

Oh yeah....  And STOP trying to get me banned on KenpoTalk for screwing with you!


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## Doc (Apr 2, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I know right off the bat that the all y'all ain't gonna like my input.
> 
> In my grandiose know-it-allness, there are a few techs in kenpo that I have opted to delete. CATEGORY COMPLETION is not a good enough reason to me to pass on silliness to subsequent generations. This is one of those techs where I just say, "Drop it. Nothing lost. If they really want to know it for histories sake, look it up on a tape."
> 
> ...


In 30 years of public law enforcement, and many ghetto beat downs, I have never seen a person in a full nelson who wasn't incapacitated in some manner already. 

Therefore from a self-defense perspective, it is moot. A person intent on attacking you would more likely punch or kick the crap out of you. A person attempting a full nelson is trying to control you. As a side note the couple times I saw someone doing this to another, the guy was so limp that he just fell out of the hold every time. Talk to me AFTER you've done the experiments.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 2, 2007)

James:

I ain't saying "impossible"; but I am saying "unlikely". I saw a coupla guys in a fight in high school do it to each other, and a CIF wrestler hold me in it once he had it on (I let him get it to see if I could escape). Kinda claustrophobic, so I trained the heck outta kenpo moves for the nelson responses, then never got to use them. I had a cousin trying to bait me into a brawl place me in one while I didn't resist (he was plastered), then try to get me to tap by cranking it in different directions. Relaxing in these holds is a helluva thing; steals thunder.

But I've also had a bouncer the size of a house (with a brain the size of a pea) misidentify me as one of the bad guys, and try putting me in a nelson. When it didn't work against mild resistance (yay for me!), he slipped up to the hadaka-jime I TAUGHT HIM and proceeded to choke the hell out of me (yay for him!, Boo for me the fighter! Yay for me the teacher!). I remember hearing another bouncer yelling, "John! Put him down! That's Dave!" as my world faded to black. I couldn't pry a finger hard enough or grind a pressure point firmly enough or gain posture or position to reverse the "gak" he had me in...ox of a man, and I taught him well. But I confounded his nelson quite easily. I just should have paid attention to his hold grafting abilities...he was only a white belt...who knew?

Next time you're riding a guy in rear mount with hooks in, try getting the full-nelson. If the guy has any game at all, it's pretty close to impossible...unless you pound him into a TKO first.

Dave


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## HKphooey (Apr 2, 2007)

I would say 70% of the material we have learned has not been used by us on the street.  Does that mean it is not worth training?  Only you can answer that question.

Mamy people carry guns and never once draw them.  I think they are the true warriors.


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## Doc (Apr 2, 2007)

HKphooey said:


> I would say 70% of the material we have learned has not been used by us on the street.  Does that mean it is not worth training?  Only you can answer that question.
> 
> Mamy people carry guns and never once draw them.  I think they are the true warriors.



Actually you are more on target than that sir as usual. 100% of what people physically learn from confrontation is not used by most, so that is not the reason. Statistically, unless people have an occupational mandate for physical confrontations, physical fights are almost non-existent among us civilized mature adults. (Excluding a couple martial arts neanderthals that shall remain nameless )

Do they happen? Yes, but very rarely, and only with a tiny percentage of the population. The simple answer is to prioritze training from the most likely scenarios to the least. And even that is affected by other factors. In your case sir, at your height, forget it. Even for short-statured people it is unlikely, and for you - King Kong and Might Joe Young are no longer with us. We must spend our resources wisely. 

I've seen too many people talking about mounts, guards, and applying this principle and that ad nauseum, when just maybe they should spend their time learning how to block that right hand roundhouse to their grill. Most can't block a good punch because their blocks are lousy. They need to work on some decent blocking skills from what I've seen. Instead they prefer to fantasize about exoctic defenses for non-existent threats from super grapplers and stick/knife weiding urban ninjas in the shadows. 

None of which I have ever seen in my time on the planet, and I've worked some bad-*** areas with some really scary people. Confrontation, physical and otherwise is what I do. 

However everyone is free to do and train whatever floats their boat. I just answered the original question from my experience and knowledge perspective. Now the real question. Do I teach a response for it? Sure I do. I think the mechanics are worth knowing and its fits within my lesson plan for other material. But, if you don't have a clue to the mechanics to defend it, once its applied, than there's no point in working on a defense for a technique that is not only NOT likely to happen, but if it did, they wouldn't know how to counter it.

People often have diverse reasons for their training and that accounts for many perspectives. I always speak from Mr. Parker's perspective. Pure self-defense. I don't have time to get ready for some ninja beast, who most likely wouldn't last a minute in my neighborhood anyway. Some skinny 16 year old, in baggy pants and his hat on backwards would cap him, and move on to the next idiot.

Calling Dr. Dave. Get your hips in town so I can show you the counter for this one. Like the counter takedown material we worked on, once you get it - it's amazingly easy.

Thanks everyone.


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## HKphooey (Apr 2, 2007)

Thanks Doc.  Always enjoy your thoughts.  Hope all is well.


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## Doc (Apr 2, 2007)

HKphooey said:


> Thanks Doc.  Always enjoy your thoughts.  Hope all is well.


Youdaman.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> For training purposes I'd say yes. But that's a Ju Jitsu mentality where sometimes we'd train from the worse positions we could think of even if it was practically infeasible for us to end up there. A full Nelson ranks up there. I don't know about all of this impossible stuff. I've seen alot that is deemed impossible and the full nelson is something I've seen more than once in its completed stage...and not while someone was letting them do it. So where conventinal knowledge says no my experiences say yes and I can't pretend to have not seen the impossible.
> 
> Oh yeah.... And STOP trying to get me banned on KenpoTalk for screwing with you!


Um... I'm not trying to get you banned. Who would I screw with if you got banned? It would be a travesty if you got banned!
Sean


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## kenpoworks (Apr 3, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I know right off the bat that the all y'all ain't gonna like my input.
> 
> In my grandiose know-it-allness, there are a few techs in kenpo that I have opted to delete. CATEGORY COMPLETION is not a good enough reason to me to pass on silliness to subsequent generations. This is one of those techs where I just say, "Drop it. Nothing lost. If they really want to know it for histories sake, look it up on a tape."
> 
> ...


 
Dave,
what can I say , I really enjoyed that post!
Rich


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## kenpoworks (Apr 3, 2007)

Doc said:


> Actually you are more on target than that sir as usual. 100% of what people physically learn from confrontation is not used by most, so that is not the reason. Statistically, unless people have an occupational mandate for physical confrontations, physical fights are almost non-existent among us civilized mature adults. (Excluding a couple martial arts neanderthals that shall remain nameless )
> 
> Do they happen? Yes, but very rarely, and only with a tiny percentage of the population. The simple answer is to prioritze training from the most likely scenarios to the least. And even that is affected by other factors. In your case sir, at your height, forget it. Even for short-statured people it is unlikely, and for you - King Kong and Might Joe Young are no longer with us. We must spend our resources wisely.
> 
> ...


Hi Doc,
spot on old boy, spot on.......so where does this leave TWIRLING SACRIFICE? 
Rich


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 3, 2007)

kenpoworks said:


> Hi Doc,
> spot on old boy, spot on.......so where does this leave TWIRLING SACRIFICE?
> Rich


Its a rolling check. It stays.:soapbox: 
Sean


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## Doc (Apr 3, 2007)

kenpoworks said:


> Hi Doc,
> spot on old boy, spot on.......so where does this leave TWIRLING SACRIFICE?
> Rich



In the very same category me ole china.  People who grab you in those type of assaults tend to be your size and weight or larger. (usually larger) Why in the hell would I want to anatomically put myself in a poor position AND lift someone off the ground who weighs as much as I do? The reality is that technique is really an old jiujitsu/judo throw. That's what happens when 'entertainent wrestling' techniques creep into a commercial format, to extend the material and complete unnecessary categories. But you already knew that Rich.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 3, 2007)

Doc said:


> (Excluding a couple martial arts neanderthals that shall remain nameless )


 
Are you calling me nameless? It's on!


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## kenpoworks (Apr 3, 2007)

Doc said:


> In the very same category me ole china.  People who grab you in those type of assaults tend to be your size and weight or larger. (usually larger) Why in the hell would I want to anatomically put myself in a poor position AND lift someone off the ground who weighs as much as I do? The reality is that technique is really an old jiujitsu/judo throw. That's what happens when 'entertainent wrestling' techniques creep into a commercial format, to extend the material and complete unnecessary categories. But you already knew that Rich.


 
I think it may be time to let this one go, I enjoy making my kenpo work for all shapes and sizes (hence the name) but this one relies just a little too much on brute strength or excessive dummying for my liking
So before I dump it Doc are you saying that there is no merit at all in practicing this technique.
I was training with a Jujitsu guy over the weekend and we discussed this very technique, he said stated that he discourages the interlocking of the fingers behind the head when training because if the legs are swept at the same time as the head is being forced down the drop is hard to control, the victim (training partner) will land heavily on the cocyyx and the shock of impact will be transferred to the weakest point the bent neck.
cheers me ole china
Rich


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## Doc (Apr 3, 2007)

kenpoworks said:


> I think it may be time to let this one go, I enjoy making my kenpo work for all shapes and sizes (hence the name) but this one relies just a little too much on brute strength or excessive dummying for my liking
> So before I dump it Doc are you saying that there is no merit at all in practicing this technique.
> I was training with a Jujitsu guy over the weekend and we discussed this very technique, he said stated that he discourages the interlocking of the fingers behind the head when training because if the legs are swept at the same time as the head is being forced down the drop is hard to control, the victim (training partner) will land heavily on the cocyyx and the shock of impact will be transferred to the weakest point the bent neck.
> cheers me ole china
> Rich


Try this. From my understanding, after you step behind him with your left AND bracing his leg - step up on the circle with your right as you pivot on your left, and throw your left arm backwards as you do.


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## kenpoworks (Apr 4, 2007)

Doc said:


> Try this. From my understanding, after you step behind him with your left AND bracing his leg - step up on the circle with your right as you pivot on your left, and throw your left arm backwards as you do.


Doc,
I do this or something very similar when "ragging" up crashing wings. 
I work on the 3 "nelson" techniques as a progression or degree of hold, not attempts, but rather the  1) hold is in on hands behind the neck, 2) the hands are interlaced but but on the back of the skull this time and 3) the hands are interlocked on the back of the skull with downward force being applied.
maybe I wont dump the "nelsons" just yet but dig around a bit more.
Respectfully 
Rich


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## Doc (Apr 24, 2007)

kenpoworks said:


> Doc,
> I do this or something very similar when "ragging" up crashing wings.
> I work on the 3 "nelson" techniques as a progression or degree of hold, not attempts, but rather the  1) hold is in on hands behind the neck, 2) the hands are interlaced but but on the back of the skull this time and 3) the hands are interlocked on the back of the skull with downward force being applied.
> maybe I wont dump the "nelsons" just yet but dig around a bit more.
> ...



You shouldn't, I haven't. I just put them in the proper perspective as I demonstrate how to easily cancel any possibility of it happening. I'll share it with you when I see you, and then you tell me what you think.


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## kenpoworks (Apr 25, 2007)

" *I'll share it with you when I see you, and then you tell me what you think."*

I look forward to it Doc.
Rich


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