# The Wing Chun Pivot



## KPM (Aug 17, 2014)

I thought I would bring this up as a topic of conversation.  It is a small, but significant point about how we do our Wing Chun. There are two primary ways to do the Wing Chun pivot or turning stance.  One can pivot on the heels and let the toes swing, or one can pivot on the K1 point and let the heels swing.  The K1 point is at the center of the foot just behind the ball of the foot.  Initially I practiced WCK from a Yip Man lineage that pivots on the heels and did this for many years.   Then when a discussion on the topic came up on the WCML I was convinced to give the K1 pivot a fair trial and really liked it.   Not long after that I became part of a Pin Sun WCK lineage that teaches to pivot on the K1 point. So I have now been pivoting on the K1 point for many years!  Having done both extensively, I thought I would provide what I have found to be advantages to pivoting on the K1 point.   This is not to say that pivoting on the heels is wrong.  It works just fine for lots of people!  This is just why I stuck with the K1 pivot.

 IMHO and based upon experience, these are some of the good points about the K1 pivot:

 1.   Good balance.   In just about any human motion involving using the feet the toes are used for balance.   When pivoting on K1 you can still "grip" the ground with the toes providing excellent stability.    The weight also stays forward near the center of the foot rather than rocking back to the heels even momentarily.   This also increases balance and stability.  I find less balance and stability when letting the "toes swing" with the heel pivot.

 2.  Good safety.   The K1 pivot, even when using a 50/50 weight distribution, takes you off of the line of attack.  Therefore your defensive motions become more deflective in nature and you are in a safer position.   If one needs to pivot, the pivot itself should be part of the defensive response.  Additionally, when receiving force or energy into your stance/structure, if you are on your heels you are more likely to have your structure broken and go over backwards.  If you are on the K1 point, you have more "spring" in your structure for receiving force.  Therefore you are in a safer as well as more stable position. 

 3.  Good rooting/sinking.   Since the weight stays centered near the middle of the foot rather than transferring back to the heels, this encourages the knees to converge more in the stance.   This lets the weight drop more and leads to better sinking.   And again, since the weight does not transfer back to the heels even momentarily, one can stay balanced and rooted more easily.  

 Some additional points to keep in mind:

 1.  Just because the K1 spot is the pivot point, this does not mean you are up on the balls of your feet.  Even though the heels are "swinging" during the pivot, they do not leave the ground but rather slide across the surface.

 2.  Likewise, when the heel is used as the pivot point, one does not "rock back" completely on the heels and let the front of the foot come off the ground.   When the toes "swing", they too just slide across the surface.   

 3.  However, given the above two points, biomechanically greater than 50% of the weight distribution has to be either at the K1 point for the heels to "swing", or at the heels for the toes to "swing."   IMHO, keeping the weight forward near the center of the foot and pivoting off of the line of attack are the two major advantages to the K1 method of pivoting.

 The above is just my opinion, and in no way should be seen as an attack on anyone else's way of doing things.   

Another fact to point out here....in Yip Man Wing Chun in general, it seems that those that pivot on the heels tend to keep a 50/50 weight distribution while those that pivot on the K1 point tend to keep more of a 70/30 weight distribution.   In Pin Sun we pivot on the K1 point  with a 50/50 weight distro.   The weight distribution is another one of those small factors that has a significant impact.  But that's a topic for another thread.  ;-)


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 17, 2014)

If your opponent sweep you when you pivot on your

- heel, you will be down.
- toes, you can raise your heel higher, and let your opponent's foot sweep to pass by under your foot. If your opponent's "instep" can't contact your "ankle", he can't sweep you.

The heel pivot is committed. The toes pivot is not. When you walk on a frozen lake surface, you will land with your toes first before you hand your heel.  Another advantage to "pivot on your toes" is you can make your stance wider so you can lower your center of gravity if needed.

The advantage of "pivot on heel" is it can push your body forward which you can't get that from "pivot on toes".


----------



## geezer (Aug 18, 2014)

KPM said:


> I thought I would bring this up as a topic of conversation.  It is a small, but significant point about how we do our Wing Chun. There are *two primary ways* to do the Wing Chun pivot or turning stance.  One can pivot on the heels and let the toes swing, or one can pivot on the K1 point and let the heels swing.  The K1 point is at the center of the foot just behind the ball of the foot...



To these "two primary ways" --pivoting on or toward the _heels_, and on or toward the _balls of the feet_, I'd add another significant dichotomy. Those who pivot their feet _at the same time_ and those who pivot their feet _one-at-a-time_ in sequence. This is typically done with the foot weighted on the center, and associated with a strong lateral weight shift ranging from about 70/30 to 100/0. This is how stance-turning is done in those groups coming out of Leung Ting's "WT" lineage. As Leung Ting first trained with Leung Sheung, perhaps some of his students do something similar?

I personally favor this method of turning for several reasons. First, the one-at-a-time method allows a practitioner to keep at least one foot rooted at any given moment, and secondly by center-weighting your foot you have good stability even in the middle of a turn. 

The one disadvantage I've experienced (beside the fact that it took longer to learn) over pivoting the feet simultaneously is that _the sequential method feels slower_. On the other hand, this is not so much of a problem if you borrow your opponent's force and _let them turn you_. A common example would be _tan da_ where your opponent's punch as received by the tan sau helps pivot your body and the force is returned to him via your pivot-punch.

In short, I feel that each method has certain advantages and certain deficits. But then everything we do has its benefits and risks. Ultimately, I guess you have to choose what gives you personally the greatest benefit for the least risk or cost.


----------



## geezer (Aug 18, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> .
> 
> The advantage of "pivot on heel" is it can push your body forward which *you can't get that from "pivot on toes"*.



Absolutely. This is why sprinters start races pushing off their heels. Same for tennis players. They are always leaning back on their heels as they move forward to return the serve.


....no, wait a minute. That would be really silly. You confuse the heck out of me John!


----------



## Touch Of Death (Aug 18, 2014)

geezer said:


> Absolutely. This is why sprinters start races pushing off their heels. Same for tennis players. They are always leaning back on their heels as they move forward to return the serve.
> 
> 
> ....no, wait a minute. That would be really silly. You confuse the heck out of me John!


If I am stepping forward, my heel will connect first, and can be used to pivot a change in direction. (point the toes and the body will follow) Now, again, if I step back with one leg and step with the other leg to a change in direction, I will again use the heel to point my toes toward the new direction. These are just two examples off the top of my head where you pivot on the heel.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2014)

geezer said:


> Absolutely. This is why sprinters start races pushing off their heels. Same for tennis players. They are always leaning back on their heels as they move forward to return the serve.
> 
> 
> ....no, wait a minute. That would be really silly. You confuse the heck out of me John!


You are talking about "spring" from the ball of your foot which will require your knee bending. This is different from what I'm talking about. Here is a simple test.

- Keep your feet as wide as your shoulder.
- Keep your feet parallel and point to the north.
- Don't bend your knees.

Now move your right 

1. toes to your left (without moving your heel),
2. heel to your right (without moving your toes), 

and make your right foot to point 45 degree northwest.

1. Your base area will be decreased (rectangular area - triangle area). Your center will be shifted to your "left" which will help your NW vector. It will push your body to the NW direction.
2. Your base area will be increased (rectangular area + triangle area). Your center will be shifted to your "right" which will not help your NW vector. It also won't push your body to the NW direction.


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 18, 2014)

Pivoting from the center of the feet means your stance is resistant to force from all angles.
The weight is not committed to either the front or the back , which means weight does not have to be transferred first before you can move rapidly in any direction.

The issue I have with pivoting from the heels or the front of the foot is that you are not really pivoting from the center of your body mass , you are pivoting from somewhere slightly forward of that or slightly back.

For the rotation to be efficient , fast , and the force evenly distributed the axis has to be in the center of the body.
Imagine if the wheels on your car had the hub offset slightly , think how long the structure of your car would last before it fell apart.

In nature and in man made machines , things that rotate very fast and powerfully do so from their center.

So forget what your feet are doing , totally relax your body  , find your true center of body mass and pivot around that.


----------



## KPM (Aug 18, 2014)

Hey John!

*If your opponent sweep you when you pivot on your

- heel, you will be down.
- toes, you can raise your heel higher, and let your opponent's foot sweep to pass by under your foot. If your opponent's "instep" can't contact your "ankle", he can't sweep you.*

Good point!  I hadn't thought of that!


*The advantage of "pivot on heel" is it can push your body forward which you can't get that from "pivot on toes".

*First, I'm not talking about pivoting on the toes, but at the K1 point which is closer to the center of the foot.   And I would have to disagree with the above statement.  Almost every athletic activity pushes the body forward from the balls of the feet.   Sprinters don't run on their heels.  A football lineman waiting for the snap, a tennis player waiting to receive a serve, a baseball player up at bat waiting for the pitch.... they are all going to be moving from the front part of the foot near the ball, not from the heels.


----------



## KPM (Aug 18, 2014)

geezer said:


> To these "two primary ways" --pivoting on or toward the _heels_, and on or toward the _balls of the feet_, I'd add another significant dichotomy. Those who pivot their feet _at the same time_ and those who pivot their feet _one-at-a-time_ in sequence..



Very true Steve.  This is another factor along with weight distro that I consider elaborating upon but decided to keep it simpler and just talk about the pivot point itself.  In Pin Sun we also pivot one-at-a-time in sequence.  Sometimes it is so fast you can hardly tell that is what is happening.


----------



## KPM (Aug 18, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> The issue I have with pivoting from the heels or the front of the foot is that you are not really pivoting from the center of your body mass , you are pivoting from somewhere slightly forward of that or slightly back.
> 
> For the rotation to be efficient , fast , and the force evenly distributed the axis has to be in the center of the body.
> Imagine if the wheels on your car had the hub offset slightly , think how long the structure of your car would last before it fell apart.
> ...



Good points.  I want to reinforce that I am talking about pivoting from the K1 point, not at the front of the foot.  With the weight sunk and the knees bent, the K1 point ends up being biomechanically as close to the central axis as you can get.


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 18, 2014)

KPM said:


> Good points.  I want to reinforce that I am talking about pivoting from the K1 point, not at the front of the foot.  With the weight sunk and the knees bent, the K1 point ends up being biomechanically as close to the central axis as you can get.



Don't know what the K1 point is , but if it's close to the center of the foot then I'm with you.

The thing that throws this whole thing out of wack , is the level that people sink their weight in their particular lineage.

In our lineage we sink our weight so that if you look down you will see the knees are in line with the toes and to us it feels as though the weight is evenly distributed to the whole foot , so accordingly we pivot from the center of the foot.

But if you are in a lineage that sinks lower you will feel the weight towards the front of your foot , conversely standing up straighter you may feel it more towards your heels.

But what ever method you use , it must be able to absorb a reasonable amount of force from any direction before you are pushed out of your stance.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 18, 2014)

When walking under all situations do you 'always' step the same? Is your body weight 'always' in the same position? How many of us have never stumbled or fallen from walking much less running or fighting.
It is the same with wing chun. There will be the ideal and there will be the reality. Within the reality of movement and positioning the weight distribution will be such that one may shift on the ball of the foot or the center or the heel. We do all of them!!!! Ideally we shift one foot then the other and pivot on the center of the foot. Both the heel and the toes will move. Something I learned many years ago; Ideal Seldom Happens! Try sparring, under pressure, often. Video and review. You will see it all. Footwork happens and it changes based upon what is needed at the moment. Practice it all because you will use it all. Ball of the foot, heel, center. Sliding, lifting, turning, landing, weighted 100/0 to 0/100 and everything in-between at some point in time. Do takedowns, do sweeps, do kicks, defend against takedowns and throws, get back on to your feet, spar vs. multiple opponents. You Will Use It All.


----------



## yak sao (Aug 18, 2014)

Danny T said:


> When walking under all situations do you 'always' step the same? Is your body weight 'always' in the same position? How many of us have never stumbled or fallen from walking much less running or fighting.
> It is the same with wing chun. There will be the ideal and there will be the reality. Within the reality of movement and positioning the weight distribution will be such that one may shift on the ball of the foot or the center or the heel. We do all of them!!!! Ideally we shift one foot then the other and pivot on the center of the foot. Both the heel and the toes will move. Something I learned many years ago; Ideal Seldom Happens! Try sparring, under pressure, often. Video and review. You will see it all. Footwork happens and it changes based upon what is needed at the moment. Practice it all because you will use it all. Ball of the foot, heel, center. Sliding, lifting, turning, landing, weighted 100/0 to 0/100 and everything in-between at some point in time. Do takedowns, do sweeps, do kicks, defend against takedowns and throws, get back on to your feet, spar vs. multiple opponents. You Will Use It All.



The forms, the chi sau, etc. are there to teach us proper body mechanics...the more you train these the better your body mechanics will be. But you are so right, these need to be pressure tested from a variety of situations. That is the only way WC, or any martial art is going to work when given the ultimate test.

WC done properly is a study in movement. The structures, the stances, etc are there to allow us to do so efficiently without loss of balance and alignment so that we are able to achieve maximum results with minimum effort.
I see so many trying to adhere to dead structures instead of moving fluidly through them. I'm afraid these people are in for a rude awakening.


----------



## mook jong man (Aug 18, 2014)

yak sao said:


> The forms, the chi sau, etc. are there to teach us proper body mechanics...the more you train these the better your body mechanics will be. But you are so right, these need to be pressure tested from a variety of situations. That is the only way WC, or any martial art is going to work when given the ultimate test.
> 
> WC done properly is a study in movement. The structures, the stances, etc are there to allow us to do so efficiently without loss of balance and alignment so that we are able to achieve maximum results with minimum effort.
> I see so many trying to adhere to dead structures instead of moving fluidly through them. I'm afraid these people are in for a rude awakening.



This is why you have to do your chi sau while you are moving around , just standing in the one spot doing chi sau means you never experience what it feels like to have to pivot immediately after you have stepped forward or back or in some cases even between stepping either forward or back.

You are basically only learning to pivot when you aren't mobile.


----------



## Vajramusti (Aug 18, 2014)

Lots of quite different comments on pivoting- most quite different from what and as far as I can tell my experienced brothers, sisters and students do...
and what I think and understand that Ip Man did. If you watch feet carefully- his feet worked differently from YKS, Sum Nung and Sum Nung's son.

Both stability of stance  in slt and mobility in chum kiu are important in development.In adjustment  and application contextual variations will occur depending on the forces involved, the terrain etc.
In skilled  application and adjustments to walking, running, dealing with resistance, and ground terrain-there will be different transitions- made possible by good  structural development
training.

In my own thinking- turning one foot at a time( Leung shun, leung ting, ben der, Kenneth chung), stepping ad turning(Cheung), ball of your feet (K1-is a little behind the ball of the feet in a hollow)
would make me vulnerable to the rush of various kinds of grapplers. In the forms, I pivot on the central gravitational axis of my body- the coordinated turning of my knee, ankles and feet make this possible. My feet are comfortably flat on the ground. The whole foot including toe adjustment works in harmony with gravity. The heels are important corners of the triangle of a good stance.
If you stand on one foot- the ground path goes through the heel with the whole foot stabilizing the balance.The K1 point is an acupuncture point not a gravitational fixture.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 18, 2014)

KPM said:


> Almost every athletic activity pushes the body forward from the balls of the feet.


Toes, ball of the foot, or K1 point are just the general area that toward the front part of your foot.

You have shown the same concern as geezer did. I had already responded to his concern. Here is another simple test.

- Facing north with both feet parallel.
- Try to execute a right punch to your left (to the west).

Let's temporary ignore your left foot pivoting for right now, if your right foot pivots on your: 

1. heel, since your base is getting smaller (rectangular - triangle), you may feel the need to step in your left foot to your left. This will help your to generate body momentum to your left.
2. toes (or K1 point, or ball of the foot), since you base is getting larger (rectangular + triangle), that make your body to shift back to your right. This will "not" help your to generate body momentum to your left.

After you have "pivoted" on your heel, you can still "spring" on your toes. There is no conflict there. To pivot on your heel will give you that "extra heel spring" besides the "toes spring" after you have completed your body turning.


----------



## Vajramusti (Aug 18, 2014)

The K1 point is an acupuncture point. There are acupuncture points all over the body including the feet.
Much of the needling is when you are lying down.

When you are standing correctly in ygkym- energy will circulate naturally. Ditto for zhang zhuang stance  as well

When someone says they are standing on K1 point-- it's a bit inaccurate-they are standing on the back of the ball of the feet.
But hey- do it the way you please.


----------



## KPM (Aug 18, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> The K1 point is an acupuncture point. There are acupuncture points all over the body including the feet.
> Much of the needling is when you are lying down.
> 
> When you are standing correctly in ygkym- energy will circulate naturally. Ditto for zhang zhuang stance  as well
> ...



Well of course.  No one has driven a nail through their foot into the ground precisely at the K1 point in order to pivot around it.  And when you pivot your foot is going to shift across the ground a bit and your weight is not going to stay over the exact same spot.  But generally speaking, saying that you are pivoting at the K1 point is more accurate than saying you are pivoting on your toes or at the balls of your feet.  Many people are familiar with acupuncture and will immediately have a good idea of what I am talking about when I say the K1 point.  It is a reference only.  No need to get all wrapped around the idea that it is an acupuncture point.  And no, I am not talking about having the weight at the back of the  ball of the foot.  Its a little further back than that.   This is why saying "K1 point" is pretty darn close!


----------



## KPM (Aug 18, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Toes, ball of the foot, or K1 point are just the general area that toward the front part of your foot.
> 
> You have shown the same concern as geezer did. I had already responded to his concern. Here is another simple test.
> 
> ...



I don't really see what you are getting at John.  I can comfortably stand as you say and pivot on either my K1 points or my heels without needing to adjust my stance with any step.   I still say my analogy of just about any other athletic activity applies.  Here's another one....Boxer's are frequently told not to stand "flat-footed."  By this the coach means with their weight back on their heels.  Why is this?  Because they can't move as explosively with the weight on the heels, and if they take a solid blow with their weight back on their heels they are more likely to be rocked because they can't absorb the force as well.  Sprinters are in the blocks waiting for the starting pistol to go, with their weight on the balls of their feet, not back on the heels.


----------



## KPM (Aug 18, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> In my own thinking- turning one foot at a time( Leung shun, leung ting, ben der, Kenneth chung), stepping ad turning(Cheung), ball of your feet (K1-is a little behind the ball of the feet in a hollow)
> would make me vulnerable to the rush of various kinds of grapplers. .



Why do you say this Joy?


----------



## KPM (Aug 21, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> In my own thinking- turning one foot at a time( Leung shun, leung ting, ben der, Kenneth chung), stepping ad turning(Cheung), ball of your feet (K1-is a little behind the ball of the feet in a hollow)
> would make me vulnerable to the rush of various kinds of grapplers. In the forms, I pivot on the central gravitational axis of my body- the coordinated turning of my knee, ankles and feet make this possible. My feet are comfortably flat on the ground. The whole foot including toe adjustment works in harmony with gravity. The heels are important corners of the triangle of a good stance.
> If you stand on one foot- the ground path goes through the heel with the whole foot stabilizing the balance.The K1 point is an acupuncture point not a gravitational fixture.



Ok.  Here's my thinking.  Again, I'm not trying to slam anyone.  I'm sure Joy has trained for and can foil the attempts of a grappler quite well.  My analysis is strictly from a biomechanical perspective to look at what IMHO is the optimal way to do things.

Standing relatively upright with your weight back on your heels is practically inviting a good grappler to shoot in on you and take you down.  To keep a grappler from taking you onto your back, you need to be able to quickly shift your weight forward and over the top of him as he shoots.  If you are on your heels it takes just a bit more time to shift your weight forward as you try to counter the takedown.  That small time lag can be critical.  Compare this to standing with your weight already a bit forward at the K1 point with your knees more bent.  It is also much quicker to throw your legs out to do an actual sprawl if your weight is already a bit forward near the K1 point than if you are more upright with your weight on your heels.

If someone is pressuring forward challenging your structure (whether trying to trap your arms or do a takedown, etc.) while you are pivoting, if you are pivoting on your heels then more than 50% of your weight must be back over your heels.  Logic says that you are more vulnerable to go over backwards.  If you are pivoting on the K1 point as someone applies pressure to your structure, then greater than 50% of your weight stays near the K1 point and you therefore have more shock absorbing capacity left in your calves and Achilles tendons.  You have more ability to sink your weight forward and therefore are less likely to go over backwards. 

This is all just simple biomechanics. 

When you stand on one foot, most people are going to bend their knee to keep their balance.  When you bend your knee, the gravitational line is going to go through your mid-foot pretty darn close to the K1 point.  The only way the gravitational line is going to go through your body and down to the ground through your heel is if you are standing with your knee locked out.  Just try it!  Simple biomechanics!


----------



## Vajramusti (Aug 21, 2014)

KPM said:


> Ok.  Here's my thinking.  Again, I'm not trying to slam anyone.  I'm sure Joy has trained for and can foil the attempts of a grappler quite well.  My analysis is strictly from a biomechanical perspective to look at what IMHO is the optimal way to do things.
> 
> Standing relatively upright with your weight back on your heels is practically inviting a good grappler to shoot in on you and take you down.  To keep a grappler from taking you onto your back, you need to be able to quickly shift your weight forward and over the top of him as he shoots.  If you are on your heels it takes just a bit more time to shift your weight forward as you try to counter the takedown.  That small time lag can be critical.  Compare this to standing with your weight already a bit forward at the K1 point with your knees more bent.  It is also much quicker to throw your legs out to do an actual sprawl if your weight is already a bit forward near the K1 point than if you are more upright with your weight on your heels.
> 
> ...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I dont care to carry this further. You are wrongly assuming that the weight needs to be back on your heels in your straw man misrepresentation..


----------



## KPM (Aug 22, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I dont care to carry this further. You are wrongly assuming that the weight needs to be back on your heels in your straw man misrepresentation..




No.  As I stated in my original post, simple biomechanics dictates that in order to shift on your heels, greater than 50% of your weight must be carried over the heels.  Otherwise your toes won't swing around.   Likewise in order to shift on the  K1 point, greater than 50% of your weight must be carried near the K1 point.  Otherwise your heels won't swing around.  How is that a wrong assumption or a straw man misrepresentation?    And as I pointed out....if you are standing on one leg, unless your leg is completely straight your line of gravity will NOT be through the heels.   That was a wrong assumption on your part.    You can bow out of the discussion if you like.  But don't say I am wrongly assuming something or using a straw man argument unless you are willing to back that up by explaining why, and where my assumptions are wrong.


----------



## geezer (Aug 22, 2014)

KPM said:


> ...But don't say I am wrongly assuming something or using a straw man argument *unless you are willing to back that up by explaining* why, and where my assumptions are wrong.



KPM I think the problem here is that there is so much more going on (biomechanically) then simply whether you pivot on your "toes", the center of the foot, the "K1" point, the heels, or whatever. There is so much more relating to rooting, adduction, forward pressure, weight shifting and so on. Although it's easy to show and share such things in person, it's pretty hard to meaningfully discuss these things through the written word alone.

So personally, I suspect that Joy doesn't feel that it's worth the bother to try to write out a long explanation that's s_till _bound to be mis-understood. Fankly, I feel the same way. Forgive me, it's been a long day.


----------



## KPM (Aug 22, 2014)

* I think the problem here is that there is so much more going on (biomechanically) then simply whether you pivot on your "toes", the center of the foot, the "K1" point, the heels, or whatever. There is so much more relating to rooting, adduction, forward pressure, weight shifting and so on.*

---Of course there is.  But I stated a relative straight-forward biomechanical concept and Joy responded with:

_You are wrongly assuming that the weight needs to be back on your heels in your straw man misrepresentation..
_*
So personally, I suspect that Joy doesn't feel that it's worth the bother to try to write out a long explanation that's still bound to be mis-understood.* 

---That may very well be true.  But I took the time to write out my thoughts on the topic and explain them the best I could.   Joy posts to say I'm wrong, and then doesn't want to take the time to explain why I am wrong or were I have wrongly assumed something.  That is not how a discussion works.  I welcome any counter-points or opposing views or corrections to my thinking.  Joy simply said I was wrong and was unwilling to say why.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2014)

KPM said:


> I took the time to write out my thoughts on the topic and explain them the best I could.   Joy posts to say I'm wrong, and then doesn't want to take the time to explain why I am wrong or were I have wrongly assumed something.  That is not how a discussion works.  I welcome any counter-points or opposing views or corrections to my thinking.  Joy simply said I was wrong and was unwilling to say why.


I can understand how you may feel. In another forum, whenever someone asked me any question, I had tried very had to provide 

- text description,
- pictures,
- clips.

as I always did. When I asked someone a question, that person just told me:

- to check out his youtube channel. 
- it's hard to see from his clip.

 without any detail text description. It's not fair IMO.


----------

