# Kenpo And The Knife



## MJS

On another forum, someone was asking if there were any Kenpo related knife dvds on the market.  I'm assuming this person was asking because he was interested in seeing just what was out there.  People mentioned Zack Whitson and Mike Pick, as well as the FMAs.  I've never had the chance to meet Mike Pick, so I can only go on what I hear, but its been said that he was highly respected by Mr. Parker regarding his knife work.  Is anyone here able to expand on Mike Picks knife work?

Zack obviously has a PT background, training with Bill McGrath, so from what I"ve seen from him, his blade work seems to be heavily influenced by that.

I commented that while many arts have weapon defense in them, the actual use of the weapon and how its used may not always be there.  IMHO, if you really want to understand something, you need to know the ins and outs of the weapon in question.  That is one of the reasons why I always lean towards the FMAs when it comes to weapons, as they are obviously weapon based arts.  

Another member commented that you don't have to specialize, but instead, just understand your Kenpo.  Empty hand, weapon hand and range of motion is all you need.  Now, maybe we were misunderstand each other, but I wasn't suggesting to stop Kenpo and take up Arnis, Kali or Sayoc, but instead, test or compare or cross reference your Kenpo knife work, to arts that focus on this a great deal.  

So my question is this:  For the Kenpo, Kempo, Kaju folks out here, what do you think?  Is it necessary to cross ref. or compare with other arts or do you need to look no further than Kenpo?


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## Blindside

MJS said:


> So my question is this:  For the Kenpo, Kempo, Kaju folks out here, what do you think?  Is it necessary to cross ref. or compare with other arts or do you need to look no further than Kenpo?



I can now explain and reference about 90% of my kali in terms of my kenpo, but I would never have had the understanding of the blade to do that without the kali.  For someone doing an adaption from kenpo unarmed to bladework I think it would be very difficult to get an understanding of the blade, the strengths, weaknesses, and users mentality without have had some experience in "something" related to the knife.  The relatively easy adaption is simply "and I have a knife in my hand, look how I can carve/poke this guy" which is what happens at the end of some of the AK knife extensions.  Many instructors do this, but then blithely go back to teaching only the straight thrust and downward thrust defenses in the curriculum, if as motion analysts can come up all these cool adaptions, why can't our attackers, and how would we defend against those same applications?

Also, alot of kenpo spends its time in what the FMAs would describe as middle range, if you can punch/chop the guy you are in medio, and thats a great place if you have the knife and the other guy doesn't.  Its a bad place if you both have knives, or he has a knife and you don't, so there will have to be a range habituation that will have to change.


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## MJS

Blindside said:


> I can now explain and reference about 90% of my kali in terms of my kenpo, but I would never have had the understanding of the blade to do that without the kali. For someone doing an adaption from kenpo unarmed to bladework I think it would be very difficult to get an understanding of the blade, the strengths, weaknesses, and users mentality without have had some experience in "something" related to the knife. The relatively easy adaption is simply "and I have a knife in my hand, look how I can carve/poke this guy" which is what happens at the end of some of the AK knife extensions. Many instructors do this, but then blithely go back to teaching only the straight thrust and downward thrust defenses in the curriculum, if as motion analysts can come up all these cool adaptions, why can't our attackers, and how would we defend against those same applications?
> 
> Also, alot of kenpo spends its time in what the FMAs would describe as middle range, if you can punch/chop the guy you are in medio, and thats a great place if you have the knife and the other guy doesn't. Its a bad place if you both have knives, or he has a knife and you don't, so there will have to be a range habituation that will have to change.


 
Well, that was my thinking as well.  Since I've been training in Arnis, I feel that my knife and stick work has improved ten fold.  I hate to make it sound like Im ragging on the art, and some will say that its because I dont "understand" the art, and perhaps thats true, but I just dont think that its as easy as some make it out to be.  Sure, the art contains alot, but I think alot of people are just scratching the surface when it comes to certain things, but trying to pass it off as if its the full package.  

We may not face a skilled knife attacker, but I personally would rather know as much as I could, rather than not knowing enough.  Likewise, I too see the standard straight thrust and icepick stab.  What about a slash?  What about reverse grips?  What about the use of the other hand to check yours and counter slash/stab?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> Well, that was my thinking as well. Since I've been training in Arnis, I feel that my knife and stick work has improved ten fold. I hate to make it sound like Im ragging on the art, and some will say that its because I dont "understand" the art, and perhaps thats true, but I just dont think that its as easy as some make it out to be. Sure, the art contains alot, but I think alot of people are just scratching the surface when it comes to certain things, but trying to pass it off as if its the full package.
> 
> We may not face a skilled knife attacker, but I personally would rather know as much as I could, rather than not knowing enough. Likewise, I too see the standard straight thrust and icepick stab. What about a slash? What about reverse grips? What about the use of the other hand to check yours and counter slash/stab?


 
Sacrelige! You mean to implicate kenpo's categories as not complete? How dare you!

Well, actually, I agree. Lotsa stuff wrong with the kenpo knife techniques in terms of them reflecting naive agents initiating the attack. The only place I've really been able to use the icepick downward stab techs is against guys trying to brain me with a beer bottle or barstool.

Knife slashes happen fast, and you need to be free on your feet ot dart in and out in response to the elongations of the attacker. Not solid in a pivoting set of bow-stances, engineered to generate force amplification in middle range weapons. 

Kenpo patterns of movement contain some great opps for knife offensive and defensive sequences, and certainly, Mr. P. was a big fan of sharp shiny things. Few bother to extrapolate them. Irony of mainstream kenpo: Lotsa the weapon defense techniques contain awful responses to actual weapon attacks, but have some great kenpo movement patterns in them...which make for great blade attack groupings. As if to say, "Do not attempt to use Entwined Lance against a knofe, but should you find yourself in possession of one, use the returning and repeating hand pattenrs from Entwined Lance to fillet the guy in a stacked quarter-beat".


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## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Sacrelige! You mean to implicate kenpo's categories as not complete? How dare you!


 
LMAO!  I know, I can hear the rumble of the thunder now. 



> Well, actually, I agree. Lotsa stuff wrong with the kenpo knife techniques in terms of them reflecting naive agents initiating the attack. The only place I've really been able to use the icepick downward stab techs is against guys trying to brain me with a beer bottle or barstool.
> 
> Knife slashes happen fast, and you need to be free on your feet ot dart in and out in response to the elongations of the attacker. Not solid in a pivoting set of bow-stances, engineered to generate force amplification in middle range weapons.
> 
> Kenpo patterns of movement contain some great opps for knife offensive and defensive sequences, and certainly, Mr. P. was a big fan of sharp shiny things. Few bother to extrapolate them. Irony of mainstream kenpo: Lotsa the weapon defense techniques contain awful responses to actual weapon attacks, but have some great kenpo movement patterns in them...which make for great blade attack groupings. As if to say, "Do not attempt to use Entwined Lance against a knofe, but should you find yourself in possession of one, use the returning and repeating hand pattenrs from Entwined Lance to fillet the guy in a stacked quarter-beat".


 

Well, thats a good example of the problem IMO.  Now that you mention it though, I can't help but think of that Jeff Speakman movie...the name eludes me at the moment...the one where his sister gets killed, and he breaks into the prison to kill the guy.  Pretty much filets a few remaining inmates with a blade.   But, back to the thread....so if in fact the techs can be used in an offensive manner, with the blade, then you'd figure the empty hand defense would be better.  

Out of curiosity, I know you've been exposed to quite a bit.  How do you address the knife work found in the system?  Cross train with the FMAs, modify the existing techs.?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:


> LMAO! I know, I can hear the rumble of the thunder now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, thats a good example of the problem IMO. Now that you mention it though, I can't help but think of that Jeff Speakman movie...the name eludes me at the moment...the one where his sister gets killed, and he breaks into the prison to kill the guy. Pretty much filets a few remaining inmates with a blade.  But, back to the thread....so if in fact the techs can be used in an offensive manner, with the blade, then you'd figure the empty hand defense would be better.
> 
> Out of curiosity, I know you've been exposed to quite a bit. How do you address the knife work found in the system? Cross train with the FMAs, modify the existing techs.?


 
Both. I start by teaching my students to BE the attacker with a knife or gun. FMA and US military training + LA County Jail specials for walking up on a guy and taking him out. I typically only teach folks who are already brown or black belts, so after drilling them for a couple weeks on how to be the thing that goes bump in the night, I turn the tables on them and say, "Great. Now...who wants to volunteer for being the defender in (insert technique name about here)?" 

I do the same for a rudimentary combat handgunning mini-course. No really good ranges around here so have had to delay some of that work with current crew, but in So Cal there was a nice tactical range in Norco. So I'd teach 'em how to pop bad guys. Then, when they have learned the nuances of weapon presentation & target acquisition, we take an alternative look at the Rod techniques. By and large, they either have to be significantly modified, or simply (and more often) tossed. Nearest weapon to best target, speed drills, diminishing telegraphing, and then I teach techniques against attacks not typically covered in the kenpo system...execution, holdups, on your knees, etc. Have borrowed heavily from SAS cirriculum for it (one of my old profs was a limey in the boats). I also replace the extensions in the gun techs with sweeping an area. Have been known to have the uke close his eyes while cutouts are placed in different spots in the room, then open them to a BB gun stuffed in the back of his neck. His homework: control the weapon and kill the computer, identify zones of sanctuary (if any are available) or decrease his defensive profile (i.e., squat down & putting the body of the original attacker between him and the highest concentration of other BG's), and commence clearing the room, and heading towards the exit (escape and evasion).

For knives, I borrow heavily from the FMA. Typically drill the nice patterns in the tecniques, then modify the front end to allow for an FMA cancel or disarm, leading in as a prefix to the counter-attack phase of the kenpo tech. Sweeping the room visually and seeking a defendable space or exit remains a rule. Replace cover-outs with heading towards the door. To make it fun, stick a "sentry" by the door that has to be zipped up and diced down for the practitioner to get past with an offensive knife technique as part of their modified cover-out. Called "safety-cover & exit". Or, "Now *I've* got the knife".

Then, combining combat handgunning, FMA, and kenpo, we do two-handed sinawali patterns blended to kenpo movement patterns, with the handgun in one hand (airsof) and knife in the other (trainer). Kinda like sticky hand drills...predictable patten at the outset, then break pattern by leading into a kenpo tech. Popping, clubbing, and bunting with the gun (depending on the angle of attack to moment of incidence) and slashing, stabbing, slicing with the knife. We do firearm in strong hand/knife in weak, and vice-versa.

From there, there's not a lot of going back to icepick "lance" techniques with a straight face, except that some of the ideas on entry have to start somewhere, and kenpo provides a useful language for describing engagement. Obviously, I make it clear to them -- this isn;t for when you're being mugged in a runnable space. This is for when things have gone horribly wrong, and where you spend the next 30 years is immaterial if you don't make it out of here to spend them somewhere.


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## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Both. I start by teaching my students to BE the attacker with a knife or gun. FMA and US military training + LA County Jail specials for walking up on a guy and taking him out. I typically only teach folks who are already brown or black belts, so after drilling them for a couple weeks on how to be the thing that goes bump in the night, I turn the tables on them and say, "Great. Now...who wants to volunteer for being the defender in (insert technique name about here)?"
> 
> I do the same for a rudimentary combat handgunning mini-course. No really good ranges around here so have had to delay some of that work with current crew, but in So Cal there was a nice tactical range in Norco. So I'd teach 'em how to pop bad guys. Then, when they have learned the nuances of weapon presentation & target acquisition, we take an alternative look at the Rod techniques. By and large, they either have to be significantly modified, or simply (and more often) tossed. Nearest weapon to best target, speed drills, diminishing telegraphing, and then I teach techniques against attacks not typically covered in the kenpo system...execution, holdups, on your knees, etc. Have borrowed heavily from SAS cirriculum for it (one of my old profs was a limey in the boats). I also replace the extensions in the gun techs with sweeping an area. Have been known to have the uke close his eyes while cutouts are placed in different spots in the room, then open them to a BB gun stuffed in the back of his neck. His homework: control the weapon and kill the computer, identify zones of sanctuary (if any are available) or decrease his defensive profile (i.e., squat down & putting the body of the original attacker between him and the highest concentration of other BG's), and commence clearing the room, and heading towards the exit (escape and evasion).
> 
> For knives, I borrow heavily from the FMA. Typically drill the nice patterns in the tecniques, then modify the front end to allow for an FMA cancel or disarm, leading in as a prefix to the counter-attack phase of the kenpo tech. Sweeping the room visually and seeking a defendable space or exit remains a rule. Replace cover-outs with heading towards the door. To make it fun, stick a "sentry" by the door that has to be zipped up and diced down for the practitioner to get past with an offensive knife technique as part of their modified cover-out. Called "safety-cover & exit". Or, "Now *I've* got the knife".
> 
> Then, combining combat handgunning, FMA, and kenpo, we do two-handed sinawali patterns blended to kenpo movement patterns, with the handgun in one hand (airsof) and knife in the other (trainer). Kinda like sticky hand drills...predictable patten at the outset, then break pattern by leading into a kenpo tech. Popping, clubbing, and bunting with the gun (depending on the angle of attack to moment of incidence) and slashing, stabbing, slicing with the knife. We do firearm in strong hand/knife in weak, and vice-versa.
> 
> From there, there's not a lot of going back to icepick "lance" techniques with a straight face, except that some of the ideas on entry have to start somewhere, and kenpo provides a useful language for describing engagement. Obviously, I make it clear to them -- this isn;t for when you're being mugged in a runnable space. This is for when things have gone horribly wrong, and where you spend the next 30 years is immaterial if you don't make it out of here to spend them somewhere.


 
Gee, 5 replies, 150+ views....why am I not surprised.  Maybe you were right Dave...I'm being Sacrelige here, offending certain people.  Why am I not surprised. LOL!  Lets see...yes sir, no sir, I'm a robot= many replies.  Question something...holy ****, look out!= me questioning something, not having 'the real understanding' of the art.  It makes me laugh and shake my head at the same time! LOL!

Anyways....the gun stuff....Personally I'm not really crazy about the stuff that I see in the system.  IMO, when you're dealing with something like a gun, I'm all for the KISS concept, none of the fancy stuff.  The blade stuff...likewise, I'm leaning heavily towards the FMA stuff.

I was hoping that someone might be able to comment on Mike Picks knife stuff.  What its based on, what, if any, modifications he's made, etc.  Of course, I'm also hoping that some of the other Kenpoists that we have on here, will also toss in their .02 on the subject.


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## stickarts

While I like the kenpo knife techniques better than some techniques I have seen in other places, I prefer the knife techniques I have learned in FMA. Best of all I like spontaneous knife practice. I highly value the kenpo for its structure and vast array of self defense techniques. I like to draw from other areas as well for weapons stuff. Just my preference.


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## K831

I agree with the criticisms of the Knife techniques taught in most Kenpo schools. It really bothered me for the first year or two of my Kenpo training. The attacks weren't realistic, so how could the defense be considered realistic? 

Once I moved and ended up with the AKKI I soon discovered that they had re-tooled the empty hand knife defense techniques to be much more realistic and dynamic. Also, I found (much to my joy) that they had developed a progressive knife and club curriculum that stayed within Kenpo's foundation in terms of principles of motion, but broke from the notion that all you needed to do was 5 swords with a knife in your hand. I am a big fan of Mr. Mills Knife work.

When I first started Kenpo I dabbled in Kali too because I wasn't comfortable with the knife material presented in that Kenpo school /association. As to the OP's question, it never hurts to take a look at what others are doing in their systems. Lots of good to be found there, and not a bad idea to be aware of what you may one day come up against, in my opinion at least. But no, since starting with the AKKI, I have not felt the need that I used to, to go "outside of my Kenpo" for anything knife related. This wasn't always the case though.


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## MJS

Found this while surfing youtube today.  I thought it was relevant to the thread at hand.


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## MJS

stickarts said:


> While I like the kenpo knife techniques better than some techniques I have seen in other places, I prefer the knife techniques I have learned in FMA.


 
Agreed, as there are some things out there that make you go hmmm....




> Best of all I like spontaneous knife practice. I highly value the kenpo for its structure and vast array of self defense techniques. I like to draw from other areas as well for weapons stuff. Just my preference.


 
Ditto.  I also like the stuff from RedZone and Karl Tanswell.


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## MJS

K831 said:


> I agree with the criticisms of the Knife techniques taught in most Kenpo schools. It really bothered me for the first year or two of my Kenpo training. The attacks weren't realistic, so how could the defense be considered realistic?
> 
> Once I moved and ended up with the AKKI I soon discovered that they had re-tooled the empty hand knife defense techniques to be much more realistic and dynamic. Also, I found (much to my joy) that they had developed a progressive knife and club curriculum that stayed within Kenpo's foundation in terms of principles of motion, but broke from the notion that all you needed to do was 5 swords with a knife in your hand. I am a big fan of Mr. Mills Knife work.
> 
> When I first started Kenpo I dabbled in Kali too because I wasn't comfortable with the knife material presented in that Kenpo school /association. As to the OP's question, it never hurts to take a look at what others are doing in their systems. Lots of good to be found there, and not a bad idea to be aware of what you may one day come up against, in my opinion at least. But no, since starting with the AKKI, I have not felt the need that I used to, to go "outside of my Kenpo" for anything knife related. This wasn't always the case though.


 
Great points.  I know that he's, at times, the subject of negative comments, personally I really like Mr. Mills and what he's done with his brand of Kenpo.  Some people tend to frown on what he does IMO, because they feel that he's changed it so much, its no longer in the Parker mold.  I disagree though.  I've only seen his stuff on clips, not live and in person, so my opinion may not be 100%, but to me, he's still kept the foundation, as you said, but just supercharged it a bit.


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## MJS

K831, a few questions, if you dont mind. 

1) Would you be willing to explain what the knife material is like in the AKKI?

2) Has Mr. Mills kept any of the Lance techniques, found in the Parker system or has be revamped the entire knife technique list?  

3) If he has kept any of the knife techs., are they in their original form or have they been modified?  If they've been changed, how so?


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## K831

MJS said:


> Great points.  I know that he's, at times, the subject of negative comments, personally I really like Mr. Mills and what he's done with his brand of Kenpo.  Some people tend to frown on what he does IMO, because they feel that he's changed it so much, its no longer in the Parker mold.  I disagree though.  I've only seen his stuff on clips, not live and in person, so my opinion may not be 100%, but to me, he's still kept the foundation, as you said, but just supercharged it a bit.



It's funny you mention this. 

The associations I was with before the AKKI were very "x amount of techniques per belt" and "only the way Parker wrote it" and "everything is in the system already and if you need to change or alter it you just don't understand it or do it right.." 

And that is what I was taught my first few years of Kenpo. I mean, it's funny to look back on now, but we would joke about Mills and others in my Kenpo classes, about how they were "changing" Kenpo, and how it couldn't be improved on.... 

When I moved away from that school, that was what I honestly believed. That move was probably the best thing that ever happended to me regarding my exposure and view of martial arts. 

Mr. Mills comes under heat from some, for sure. You're right, they think he has made too many changes. Anyone who has seen him move though, can see that the fundamentals of Kenpo are there in spades. He is increadibly skilled and talented MA'st. I can't see how Kenpo or any system can be expected not to change, evolve, inovate etc.... It's mind boggling to me that Mills stuff is frowned upon, now that I have seen first hand what he is doing. I could never go back. You're right, "supercharged it" is a perfect explanation.


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## K831

MJS said:


> K831, a few questions, if you dont mind.
> 
> 1) Would you be willing to explain what the knife material is like in the AKKI?
> 
> 2) Has Mr. Mills kept any of the Lance techniques, found in the Parker system or has be revamped the entire knife technique list?
> 
> 3) If he has kept any of the knife techs., are they in their original form or have they been modified?  If they've been changed, how so?



No problem, I'll get on tonight after work and answer these for you.


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## MJS

K831 said:


> It's funny you mention this.
> 
> The associations I was with before the AKKI were very "x amount of techniques per belt" and "only the way Parker wrote it" and "everything is in the system already and if you need to change or alter it you just don't understand it or do it right.."
> 
> And that is what I was taught my first few years of Kenpo. I mean, it's funny to look back on now, but we would joke about Mills and others in my Kenpo classes, about how they were "changing" Kenpo, and how it couldn't be improved on....
> 
> When I moved away from that school, that was what I honestly believed. That move was probably the best thing that ever happended to me regarding my exposure and view of martial arts.
> 
> Mr. Mills comes under heat from some, for sure. You're right, they think he has made too many changes. Anyone who has seen him move though, can see that the fundamentals of Kenpo are there in spades. He is increadibly skilled and talented MA'st. I can't see how Kenpo or any system can be expected not to change, evolve, inovate etc.... It's mind boggling to me that Mills stuff is frowned upon, now that I have seen first hand what he is doing. I could never go back. You're right, "supercharged it" is a perfect explanation.


 
I can sympathize, because the same thing happened to me as well.  I may not have had the chance to live where the 'top' guys are, but I'm fortunate enough to have trained with some great Kenpo people, in my opinion.  Everyone is open to other things.  I remember when I first came to this forum.  I would comment on things that IMO, were lacking or missing in Kenpo.  And like you, I was told that it was already there, that I wasn't seeing it, that I didn't understand the art, etc. etc.  And I started thinking that it was true, until one day when I saw a Kenpo clip of a high ranking Kenpoist doing a Kenpo standup tech., while being mounted, in an effort to show that what could be done standing, could also be done on the ground.  Personally, I wasn't too impressed, due to the fact that from the beginning, the tech. was flawed because of the way the attack was being done.  These people are trying to pass something off as an effective defense, all because they don't want to change.  Yet I went to the AKKI website, and watched a ground clip that was posted there, and thought, "Yup, now this makes sense!"  

I never had the chance to meet Mr. Parker, so all I have to go off of, is what others who have, tell me, from reading, clips, etc.  I do believe though, that he wanted his art to grow, not stay stagnant.  So many people IMO are against change or any sort, and I dont know why.  Obviously Mr. Mills has made some changes, and you'd be the best person right now to explain why, but it seems to me that his art is growing and keeping up with the times.  







K831 said:


> No problem, I'll get on tonight after work and answer these for you.


 
Cool!  Looking forward to it.


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## MJS

Just bumping this back up.  Im interested in hearing about Mr. Mills.


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## K831

MJS said:


> Just bumping this back up.  Im interested in hearing about Mr. Mills.



MJS, sorry it took so long for me to get back to this. As you know, some family stuff has me out of town, I had a little bit of time to get this down in a word doc so I can post it here. I tried to address each question; 

   [FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]


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## K831

[FONT=&quot]1.)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Would you be willing to explain what the knife material is like in the AKKI?[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]It is difficult to say what the knife material is like except to say that is just like our club and empty hand material. I say that because you have seen Mr. Mills move on video clips, and you have noticed the changes, much of what you see different in his empty hand motion applies also to his knife and club material.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot] I say this because we teach motion (how to move and/or execute) not sequence. The AKKI is not so oriented to X amount of techniques must be memorized like most of EPAK these days, but rather, based on drills, and simple patterns of motion built around Mr. Parkers principles so that means we can focus on how to move in a universal setting and then apply it to everything. Even the use of the gun. [/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]There are similarities with FMA, yes, but arent there similarities in any other system when you talk about them having a punch or a kick or a block? They all have them so they all stole from one another I think the better question is, since there are only so many punches, kicks etc the human body can do, and most all systems have them, then why do they all move it different? [/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]Here is one of the unique factors in the AKKI; our motion, all of our motion, is based off of Mr. Mills expertise with Fast Draw. He has set world records for Fast Draw shooting in the 70s and 80s when he competed nationally. The motion in the AKKI is entirely built off of those motion patterns, speed patterns, timing, rhythm, power that enabled Mr. Mills to be one of the very fastest human beings in the world. Being a student under Mr. Parker, and a fast draw champion, Mr. Mills was able to pull from his Fast Draw experience and do what you described; supercharge his Kenpo.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot] This is how our knife material is put together; it is very fast, direct, we stress always checking, and we work on always moving on multiple angles and responding to multiple angles (no static attacks, ice pick attacks etc). This is the template for our empty hand motion and it does not change when a weapon is put in our hand, the way Mr. Mills engrains this (via the timing patterns, sets and drills he has created) allow for rapid progression with the knife and a seamless progression. This is what allows us to have lower belts so proficient with the knife so early. I am not aware of other Kenpo associations teaching the knife this way, or this early. [/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot] This is done, because in CQB, there is no time to change formats of fighting. It must be seamless in transition. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]2) Has Mr. Mills kept any of the Lance techniques, found in the Parker system or has be revamped the entire knife technique list? [/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]No, not any of the techniques from the IKKA knife material are incorporated because it is not how we move. The structure of the IKKA techniques is not conducive to AKKI motion. 

This would take quite a bit of explaining to make sense out of this statement, and I understand it could sound to others like we move better than Mr. Parker. Not true. But we know Mr. Parker moved better than the structure of his techniques allowed at that time. Mr. Parker was not his techniques. He was his principles and concepts and his very unique, devastating motion. 

I think this is what many in the Kenpo community have difficulty differentiating, and that is why they get so upset with us in the AKKI when we make statements like the one above. I used to think that way too, fortunately for me, a move forced me into the AKKI, thankfully. [/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]3) If he has kept any of the knife techs, are they in their original form or have they been modified? If they've been changed, how so?[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]There is one technique that we use and teach that you can see Mr. Parker using. Its on our You Tube channel and its our favorite clip. In this clip, you will see rare footage of Mr. Parker really moving. He also uses his knife in a sequence that was the first technique Mr. Mills taught us back when we were still members of the IKKA. [/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]That is the only one. Everything else is Mills creation based on moving and checking extremely fast. Speed is of the essence in knife work. Moving on multiple angles, changing angles instantly and checking the opponent out within all of this. Any other system would say that they do this as well. Im sure that is their intent, but none of them, so far as I have seen, move faster or more explosively than Mills and that is how he teaches us, how to move fast and hit hard. . When I did Kali, the flow was great, good angles and checks but not ballistic nor as direct as Mr. Mills stuff. [/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]Moving a knife, it becomes that simplified yet complex in body mechanics. Again, our knife material is based on Mills fast draw. He even does fast draw with his custom knives that he has made on the same cant as his holster for his gun. 

Since we teach knife material as described above, we teach our knife defense the same way, against resisting, dynamic, fast attacks. They are not like the techniques everyone was discussing above, but, rather, based on realistic attacks. 
[/FONT]
 [FONT=&quot]Same with our empty hand techniques. In most Kenpo schools, in most youtube videos, you see the techniques applied agains a rear step through punch, just as they were written way back when. You will virtually never see that in an AKKI school. We run our techniques against realistic attacks, off realistic jabs, crosses etc...Much of technique line is "spontaneous" as opposed to "ok everyone, lets work 5 swords against a rear step through..." where you know what is coming.[/FONT]

 [FONT=&quot]Anyways, I hope this helps [/FONT]


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## MJS

K831 said:


> MJS, sorry it took so long for me to get back to this. As you know, some family stuff has me out of town, I had a little bit of time to get this down in a word doc so I can post it here. I tried to address each question;


 
No worries. As I said, RL and family always comes first. 



K831 said:


> [FONT=&quot]1.)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Would you be willing to explain what the knife material is like in the AKKI?[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]It is difficult to say what the knife material is like except to say that is just like our club and empty hand material. I say that because you have seen Mr. Mills move on video clips, and you have noticed the changes, much of what you see different in his empty hand motion applies also to his knife and club material.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]I say this because we teach motion (how to move and/or execute) not sequence. The AKKI is not so oriented to X amount of techniques must be memorized like most of EPAK these days, but rather, based on drills, and simple patterns of motion built around Mr. Parkers principles so that means we can focus on how to move in a universal setting and then apply it to everything. Even the use of the gun. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]There are similarities with FMA, yes, but arent there similarities in any other system when you talk about them having a punch or a kick or a block? They all have them so they all stole from one another I think the better question is, since there are only so many punches, kicks etc the human body can do, and most all systems have them, then why do they all move it different? [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Here is one of the unique factors in the AKKI; our motion, all of our motion, is based off of Mr. Mills expertise with Fast Draw. He has set world records for Fast Draw shooting in the 70s and 80s when he competed nationally. The motion in the AKKI is entirely built off of those motion patterns, speed patterns, timing, rhythm, power that enabled Mr. Mills to be one of the very fastest human beings in the world. Being a student under Mr. Parker, and a fast draw champion, Mr. Mills was able to pull from his Fast Draw experience and do what you described; supercharge his Kenpo.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]This is how our knife material is put together; it is very fast, direct, we stress always checking, and we work on always moving on multiple angles and responding to multiple angles (no static attacks, ice pick attacks etc). This is the template for our empty hand motion and it does not change when a weapon is put in our hand, the way Mr. Mills engrains this (via the timing patterns, sets and drills he has created) allow for rapid progression with the knife and a seamless progression. This is what allows us to have lower belts so proficient with the knife so early. I am not aware of other Kenpo associations teaching the knife this way, or this early. [/FONT]
> [FONT=&quot]This is done, because in CQB, there is no time to change formats of fighting. It must be seamless in transition. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]2) Has Mr. Mills kept any of the Lance techniques, found in the Parker system or has be revamped the entire knife technique list? [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]No, not any of the techniques from the IKKA knife material are incorporated because it is not how we move. The structure of the IKKA techniques is not conducive to AKKI motion. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]This would take quite a bit of explaining to make sense out of this statement, and I understand it could sound to others like we move better than Mr. Parker. Not true. But we know Mr. Parker moved better than the structure of his techniques allowed at that time. Mr. Parker was not his techniques. He was his principles and concepts and his very unique, devastating motion. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]I think this is what many in the Kenpo community have difficulty differentiating, and that is why they get so upset with us in the AKKI when we make statements like the one above. I used to think that way too, fortunately for me, a move forced me into the AKKI, thankfully. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]3) If he has kept any of the knife techs, are they in their original form or have they been modified? If they've been changed, how so?[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]There is one technique that we use and teach that you can see Mr. Parker using. Its on our You Tube channel and its our favorite clip. In this clip, you will see rare footage of Mr. Parker really moving. He also uses his knife in a sequence that was the first technique Mr. Mills taught us back when we were still members of the IKKA. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]That is the only one. Everything else is Mills creation based on moving and checking extremely fast. Speed is of the essence in knife work. Moving on multiple angles, changing angles instantly and checking the opponent out within all of this. Any other system would say that they do this as well. Im sure that is their intent, but none of them, so far as I have seen, move faster or more explosively than Mills and that is how he teaches us, how to move fast and hit hard. . When I did Kali, the flow was great, good angles and checks but not ballistic nor as direct as Mr. Mills stuff. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Moving a knife, it becomes that simplified yet complex in body mechanics. Again, our knife material is based on Mills fast draw. He even does fast draw with his custom knives that he has made on the same cant as his holster for his gun. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Since we teach knife material as described above, we teach our knife defense the same way, against resisting, dynamic, fast attacks. They are not like the techniques everyone was discussing above, but, rather, based on realistic attacks. [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Same with our empty hand techniques. In most Kenpo schools, in most youtube videos, you see the techniques applied agains a rear step through punch, just as they were written way back when. You will virtually never see that in an AKKI school. We run our techniques against realistic attacks, off realistic jabs, crosses etc...Much of technique line is "spontaneous" as opposed to "ok everyone, lets work 5 swords against a rear step through..." where you know what is coming.[/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&quot]Anyways, I hope this helps [/FONT]


 
Thank you for a very well thought out reply.  Sounds like some great stuff, that was put together with alot of thought behind it.  I have to wonder, sometimes, when I see the negative comments, that it could be a result of, someone, for lack of better words, being jealous.  Seems that sometimes people are afraid to admit that something may not really be what its cracked up to, so in turn, instead of admitting it, they bash someone who stepped up to the plate, and 'supercharged' the material.

As for the empty hand techniques....I agree with those as well.  Nothing wrong with teaching the step thru, if you wanted to, if you thought it was realistic, but IMHO, I think that its best to focus on things that are going to be the most commonly seen.  Reading Prof. Bishops book on Kajukenbo, this is exactly what they did with their techniques....put the focus more on a more realistic attack, jabs, crosses, etc.  

Thanks again for taking the time to reply to this. :ultracool

Mike


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## K831

MJS said:


> I have to wonder, sometimes, when I see the negative comments, that it could be a result of, someone, for lack of better words, being jealous.  Seems that sometimes people are afraid to admit that something may not really be what its cracked up to, so in turn, instead of admitting it, they bash someone who stepped up to the plate, and 'supercharged' the material.



I think you are correct, this is a large part of it. I started MA when I was 8. A lot of what I learned was not very good, in terms of "combat". It hurt when I came to this realization, because of the time and energy put into an endeavor that turned out to be something other than what I thought. 

This of course depends on your goals. My goal was combat efficiency (more martial, than art). I have seen that look on the face of many BB's and 2nds, 3rds, 4ths etc when they come to our camp or into our school. I have seen it on the face of guys from various styles when they came into the Krav classes or the FMA classes I was atending.... and were met with a more realistic, devastating training method. We have had some high ranking Kenpo people come out, and I have seen that look on their face, I recognized it cuz I felt it too.

Some of them are more focused on getting better and they can quickly say "wow, good stuff, I wanna add to the good I have and get rid of the rest." Others can't and so they say "thats not new, that's not improved that doesn't work" etc... Too bad. I am concerned with "what is right" not "who is right". 



MJS said:


> As for the empty hand techniques....I agree with those as well.  Nothing wrong with teaching the step thru, if you wanted to, if you thought it was realistic, but IMHO, I think that its best to focus on things that are going to be the most commonly seen.



Agreed, and we do work off of a rear step through once in a while. But, if you can respond and block/parry/check/trap/slip a good, fast jab/cross/kick, then I think it is safe to say you will be comfortable picking up the untrained fighters looping rear step through punch! 



MJS said:


> Reading Prof. Bishops book on Kajukenbo, this is exactly what they did with their techniques....put the focus more on a more realistic attack, jabs, crosses, etc.


 
    I don't know Prof. Bishop (other than some of his posts here) nor have I had the chance to read his book, but I have spent some time in Kaju schools (one of my brothers is currently training at a Kaju school) and I appreciate their warrior spirit and realistic approach. Same with much of JKD, FMA and Krav. Those styles seem to have a higher concentration of guys working against resisting, realistic attacks and honing their material to real life altercations. So is the AKKI, but we also have Parkers motion built in, and that is the clincher for me.


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## Touch Of Death

One of the main teaching tools for kenpoists is how to not cut the hell out of yourself while using the blade. (Slap art becomes tap art)
Sean


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## K831

Touch Of Death said:


> One of the main teaching tools for kenpoists is how to not cut the hell out of yourself while using the blade. (Slap art becomes tap art)
> Sean



Certainly. Those "slaps" need to be positional checks, not just reciprocation.


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## MJS

K831 said:


> I think you are correct, this is a large part of it. I started MA when I was 8. A lot of what I learned was not very good, in terms of "combat". It hurt when I came to this realization, because of the time and energy put into an endeavor that turned out to be something other than what I thought.


 
Couldn't agree more, and the more I read your posts, the more I think, "Yup, I was in the same boat!"  Reminds me of the saying, "If I knew then, what I know now...."  More than one time, I found myself wondering, had I gone elsewhere, I now would not have had to play catch up.  Fortunately things do work themselves out, and I train at a wonderful school. 



> This of course depends on your goals. My goal was combat efficiency (more martial, than art). I have seen that look on the face of many BB's and 2nds, 3rds, 4ths etc when they come to our camp or into our school. I have seen it on the face of guys from various styles when they came into the Krav classes or the FMA classes I was atending.... and were met with a more realistic, devastating training method. We have had some high ranking Kenpo people come out, and I have seen that look on their face, I recognized it cuz I felt it too.


 
Mine was SD as well.  Fortunately, training has opened the doors for me to have the chance to work with many wondeful people, people who, I probably never would've met, if it hadn't have been for training.  





> Agreed, and we do work off of a rear step through once in a while. But, if you can respond and block/parry/check/trap/slip a good, fast jab/cross/kick, then I think it is safe to say you will be comfortable picking up the untrained fighters looping rear step through punch!


 
I try to work both.  I"ve been focusing alot lately on taking the base technique, and whenever my partner is ready, do something to disrupt the normal flow of the tech.  Certainly makes you have to stop and think. 





> I don't know Prof. Bishop (other than some of his posts here) nor have I had the chance to read his book, but I have spent some time in Kaju schools (one of my brothers is currently training at a Kaju school) and I appreciate their warrior spirit and realistic approach. Same with much of JKD, FMA and Krav. Those styles seem to have a higher concentration of guys working against resisting, realistic attacks and honing their material to real life altercations. So is the AKKI, but we also have Parkers motion built in, and that is the clincher for me.


 
If you have the chance to pick up the book, do so.  Its well worth it.


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## MJS

So, while surfing that other forum, there has been some discussion on the Knife Set, that is taught.  Here are a few clips, to give an example:





 




 
So, some are saying that while the form does teach the knife, that all its really doing is just placing a knife in the hands of someone doing empty hand Kenpo techniques, that if you really want an understanding of the knife, you need to look at weapon based arts, ie: FMAs.

Others are saying that the movement is more than what it seems, which if you look, you'll see finger set.  

So, for those that know this form, or those that just want to comment, what are your thoughts?


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## MJS

No thoughts?  Anyone, anyone??


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## Carol

*chuckle*  Kinda reminds me of this... 

[yt]4DzcOCyHDqc[/yt]

Sport vs. self-defense.  Its a nice tournament form.


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## jks9199

I'm not a kempo stylist -- but I'm not impressed with that form as a knife form.  Seems kind of heavy on the fantasy, and light on practical applications...


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## Carol

jks9199 said:


> I'm not a kempo stylist -- but I'm not impressed with that form as a knife form.  Seems kind of heavy on the fantasy, and light on practical applications...



There's some controversy surrounding the Long 8.  It's been said that Mr. Parker died before the form was finished.  Some schools/orgs don't teach it, the ones that do don't teach it until the 3rd or 4th black.

Dr. Chapel has referred to Long 5, 6, 7, and 8 as competition forms. Its not difficult, IMO, to see the competition appeal for the form.  The mirrored and repetitive arm movements offer good opportunities for personal pedagogy or to showcase the synchronization of a demo team.

But the form doesn't teach fighting.  I can't think of an obvious combat application for standing in a horse stance and vigorously waving your arms around, nor can I think of one for standing in a Crane stance with an edged weapon in each hand.

Take Delayed Sword, which is one of the first techniques Kenpoists learn.  Step back and block, then a front snap kick, then a shuto.  Here's a couple of kids doing their version:  

[yt]CiY8bUvtLH0[/yt]

Even this basic technique takes in to account the impact that your strikes will have on the body.  Long 8, at least as performed in the clips, does not account for any impact, or anything that happens once a knife enters the body.

Is there material in the forms that you can use with a knife?  Absolutely, and I'm sure there is plenty that I am missing  But with something as deadly as a knife, is it truly wise to use this as stand-alone material?  I don't think it is.


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## Josh Oakley

jks9199 said:


> I'm not a kempo stylist -- but I'm not impressed with that form as a knife form. Seems kind of heavy on the fantasy, and light on practical applications...


 
Me neither. That there is footage of Mr. Parker teaching the use of the knife in a very different manner than in Long 8 I find interesting. I wonder why there is this discrepancy. I remember there being a commercial art and then his "real" art, so I wonder if that plays into the discrepancy,


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## Touch Of Death

Josh Oakley said:


> Me neither. That there is footage of Mr. Parker teaching the use of the knife in a very different manner than in Long 8 I find interesting. I wonder why there is this discrepancy. I remember there being a commercial art and then his "real" art, so I wonder if that plays into the discrepancy,


The man that invented the form was a knife maker, not a knife fighter. When you add concepts such as safety and motion, things change.
Sean


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## MJS

Touch Of Death said:


> The man that invented the form was a knife maker, not a knife fighter. When you add concepts such as safety and motion, things change.
> Sean


 
Are you talking about Mike Pick here?


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom

Kenpo weapon defenses are intriguing. I had no clue of even the remotest signs of possible knife proficiency in my last exchange. He even switched the knife to pro hold, when I advanced. His eyes widened, like I was supposed to know it made a difference. Ill be keeping my eye on these skills, or Ill get myself killed one of these days! Sorry if Im outside of the context of the thread.


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## MJS

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> Kenpo weapon defenses are intriguing. I had no clue of even the remotest signs of possible knife proficiency in my last exchange. He even switched the knife to pro hold, when I advanced. His eyes widened, like I was supposed to know it made a difference. Ill be keeping my eye on these skills, or Ill get myself killed one of these days! Sorry if Im outside of the context of the thread.


 
Ummm..I'm sorry, but what are you talking about with this post????


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## Blindside

Rolls_Royce_Phantom said:


> Kenpo weapon defenses are intriguing. I had no clue of even the remotest signs of possible knife proficiency in my last exchange. He even switched the knife to pro hold, when I advanced. His eyes widened, like I was supposed to know it made a difference. Ill be keeping my eye on these skills, or Ill get myself killed one of these days! Sorry if Im outside of the context of the thread.



What is a "pro hold?"


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## Sukerkin

I hesitate to speculate .


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## Rolls_Royce_Phantom

Hehe. Sorry guys. It's difficult talking about certain life threatening experiences when you don't know the correct technical jargon. I posted this in the wrong forum and in the wrong context. My apologies. It'd old news anyways. Until I can find a way of talking about technical benefits of the event that is useful on paper...


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## Touch Of Death

mjs said:


> are you talking about mike pick here?


No; Mr. Hibben.


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## Brian Jones

Touch Of Death said:


> The man that invented the form was a knife maker, not a knife fighter. When you add concepts such as safety and motion, things change.
> Sean


 
Beg to differ.  Like the form or not, Mr. Parker designed the form.  Mr. Hibben designed the "Kenpo Knife" I believe as a part of his Black Belt thesis.

Brian Jones


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## Touch Of Death

Brian Jones said:


> Beg to differ. Like the form or not, Mr. Parker designed the form. Mr. Hibben designed the "Kenpo Knife" I believe as a part of his Black Belt thesis.
> 
> Brian Jones


So... Mr. Hibben had no part in the form design? I did not know that; unless, you are mistaken. I'm not going to worry about it one way or the other, but I did hear he helped design the form. Perhaps the world will never know... or Doc could just tell us.
Sean


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## Brian Jones

Sean:
  The quote I responded to stated that the "man" who invented the knife invented the form, meaning Mr. Hibben.  I did not say he had no input or influence in how Mr. Parker designed what we now refer to as form 8. He may have or not.  Mr. Parker had an interest in the knife and it's applications long before Mr. Hibben. It's more probable to say Mr. Parker influenced Mr. Hibben's design of the knife.

Brian Jones


----------

