# Real Violence that's really good, is usually just sloppy Street Boxing



## FriedRice (Nov 9, 2018)

This is why Fighter's training for sport is the best form of Self Defense.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Nov 9, 2018)

I agree real violence is usually sloppy street boxing, but i dont see how that makes it good.
This was a good video to analyze street fighting, but i dont see how it proves the point that sport fighting training is the best form of self defense


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## drop bear (Nov 9, 2018)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> I agree real violence is usually sloppy street boxing, but i dont see how that makes it good.
> This was a good video to analyze street fighting, but i dont see how it proves the point that sport fighting training is the best form of self defense



The argument would be if you are probably going to face a version of bad boxing on the street. Then learning good boxing would be the most efficient counter.

Brophy tents show it better.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 9, 2018)

boxing only helps if the situation follows the very predictable pattern of male dominance chest puffing.


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## Martial D (Nov 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> boxing only helps if the situation follows the very predictable pattern of male dominance chest puffing.


What does 'male dominance chest puffing' have to do with being good with your fists?

99% of 'street fights' are just people throwing hands from a stationary position. Being able to move and throw accurately as well as having the experience to read what's coming, understand distance(when you can hit, when you can be hit, and when you are safe) that boxing gives you is invaluable at that point.


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## drop bear (Nov 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> boxing only helps if the situation follows the very predictable pattern of male dominance chest puffing.



Or robberies





Gang and weapon attacks


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 9, 2018)

@Martial D  not sure what your disagreement is,  maybe you are reading into my post something that isnt there.


Martial D said:


> 99% of 'street fights' are just people throwing hands from a stationary position. Being able to move and throw accurately as well as having the experience to read what's coming, understand distance(when you can hit, when you can be hit, and when you are safe) that boxing gives you is invaluable at that point.


i would hesitate to give a number 99% as fact but anecdotally, yes i agree.  i love boxing.  it one of the fundamentals i base my own art on.



Martial D said:


> What does 'male dominance chest puffing' have to do with being good with your fists?


it has everything do.  
if anyone is so inclined to read....
Aggression Continuum in Healthcare - McKesson Medical-Surgical
From the Cover: Two types of aggression in human evolution

"Two major types of aggression, proactive and reactive, are associated with contrasting expression, eliciting factors, neural pathways, development, and function.
The distinction between the two types is centered on the aims of aggression. Proactive aggression involves a purposeful planned attack with an external or internal reward as a goal. It is characterized by attention to a consistent target, and often by a lack of emotional arousal. Aggressors normally initiate action only when they perceive that they are likely to achieve their goals at an appropriately low cost . Examples include bullying, stalking, ambushes, and premeditated homicides, whether by a single killer or a group.

By contrast, reactive aggression is a response to a threat or frustrating event, with the goal being only to remove the provoking stimulus. It is always associated with anger, as well as with a sudden increase in sympathetic activation, a failure of cortical regulation, and an easy switching among targets . Examples are bar fights arising from mutual insults and crimes of passion immediately after the discovery of infidelity."








most of the discussion on this web sight addresses the reactive violence, the "street fight" or bar fight.  we have gone over this again and again.   this aggression follows the pattern shown above.  there are better versions of the pattern but this is what i googled quickly.  in the more defined continuum there are also branch off points for capitulation and de-escalation.  
what many fail to address is that the type of violence will determine the success rate of certain responses.  in the first clip i posted the assailant uses an ambush type attack, this is consistent with proactive violence or "predatory behaviors"  the continuum that exists in the bar fight does not exist in predatory violence. the aim of proactive violence is to do as much damage as possible without risk or the violence is a means to an end.  the assailant will only engage when he has mitigated the risk of resistance in order to attain his goal.  while on the contrary reactive violence is predicated on engaging in the risk and showing dominance. the assailant has the belief that he is the more dominant primate and is expressing his power.  actual physical engagement is not necessary for the "win" if the other will capitulate and submit although there is very often an emotional build up that needs to be released with physical aggression.  

what this means is that the monkey dance is a fight between two people and is predictable and boxing works well as a defense. while on the contrary predatory violence is strategically designed to remove the ability of the victim to fight back.  he only uses the violence to overwhelm you in order to obtain compliance for another goal.  there is usually no opportunity for a defense so boxing skills will not come into play.


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## Martial D (Nov 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> @Martial D  not sure what your disagreement is,  maybe you are reading into my post something that isnt there.
> 
> i would hesitate to give a number 99% as fact but anecdotally, yes i agree.  i love boxing.  it one of the fundamentals i base my own art on.
> 
> ...


Nope, I responded to the words you said. If that's not what you meant to say you should have said something different.

Also, your Wikipedia copypasta is really here nor there in terms of 'boxing only helps if the situation follows the very predictable pattern of male dominance chest puffing.' Yes there are different reasons for violence, and yes it won't help if someone you don't see hits you with a wrench, but that hardly banishes it's usefulness exclusively to the realm of dude bro chest puffing. Not sure where you are trying to go with this.


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## drop bear (Nov 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> @Martial D  not sure what your disagreement is,  maybe you are reading into my post something that isnt there.
> 
> i would hesitate to give a number 99% as fact but anecdotally, yes i agree.  i love boxing.  it one of the fundamentals i base my own art on.
> 
> ...



I am pretty confident that being able to punch a man's face through the back of their head will generally trump his understanding of human psychology.

Which is why punches generally win fights.

And if dominance fights were not predatory what is sucker punching?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> boxing only helps if the situation follows the very predictable pattern of male dominance chest puffing.


Wow.  he prison shanked the mess out of him? her?  


hoshin1600 said:


> @Martial D  not sure what your disagreement is,  maybe you are reading into my post something that isnt there.
> 
> i would hesitate to give a number 99% as fact but anecdotally, yes i agree.  i love boxing.  it one of the fundamentals i base my own art on.
> 
> ...


lol  I go straight from 1 to 6.  All of that other stuff is just a waste of time lol.   Being at 2 - 5 just gives the person time to prepare.   Steps 2 -5 should be "negotiate / manipulate"


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## Deleted member 39746 (Nov 9, 2018)

I stand by my statement of a good combat focused teacher should include "sport" aspects, or at least sufficient "live" training to supplement a sports like atmosphere. (if you dont want to call it sport)

I understand the merits and everything.   But there is a element of experience in thse things as well, nothing after all can truly prepare you for the real thing unless it analogs a sports fight or what your "live" training consists of.

Also, he could have done with taking some legal advice as to not kick and stomp on the head of someone who is clearly not posing a threat as that is defensible in court.

addendum:  AND i saw haymakers. 

Addendum 2:   I personally  hold a high importance of actually practicing in realistic scenarios with actual proper resistance and to emulate it as closely as possible.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 10, 2018)

Martial D said:


> yes it won't help if someone you don't see hits you with a wrench,


Exactly.


Martial D said:


> Not sure where you are trying to go with this.


The wrench is where I was going, with the added verbal that violence can be classified and divided and what works for one can not be depended upon in the other. Therefore boxing is not ALL you need, you also need other solutions.  If you know the two classifications then the "other solutions" are easier to figure out.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I am pretty confident that being able to punch a man's face through the back of their head will generally trump his understanding of human psychology.
> 
> Which is why punches generally win fights.
> 
> And if dominance fights were not predatory what is sucker punching?


For someone who uses the WORD sciencetific method a lot,  you retreat quickly back to caveman club thumping when presented with a little social science.
Often sucker punches have violence cues if your aware to notice them. But yes they do have a predatory aspect to them.
I think your making an argument that doesn't need to be made.  Of course punching works.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> For someone who uses the WORD sciencetific method a lot,  you retreat quickly back to caveman club thumping when presented with a little social science.
> Often sucker punches have violence cues if your aware to notice them. But yes they do have a predatory aspect to them.
> I think your making an argument that doesn't need to be made.  Of course punching works.



It not only works.  But caveman club thumping works so well that it can completely negate psychology.

Which is the point.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 10, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> boxing only helps if the situation follows the very predictable pattern of male dominance chest puffing.


I think boxing helps any time you get a chance to respond. It helps more in some situations than others.

The same is true of any physical system of defense/combat.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think boxing helps any time you get a chance to respond. It helps more in some situations than others.
> 
> The same is true of any physical system of defense/combat.



Do you think there is a predictable pattern of chest thumping?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Do you think there is a predictable pattern of chest thumping?


Sometimes. Sometimes there's no chest-thumping, at all. When there's chest-thumping, it's usually going to follow the predictable pattern, unless derailed.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The argument would be if you are probably going to face a version of bad boxing on the street. Then learning good boxing would be the most efficient counter.
> 
> Brophy tents show it better.


 I agree, for the fact that a sloppy punch can still cause damage.  Sloppy does not always mean weak or less dangerous.  It may mean that the person doesn't have a lot of accuracy but if one of the punches connects, you'll still be in trouble.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 10, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It not only works.  But caveman club thumping works so well that it can completely negate psychology.
> Which is the point.


its a dumb point.  because no one said you fight with psychology.

its not a difficult logic to follow here.  my thoughs were as follows;
does boxing work every single time in every situation?  no....ok then
how often does it effectively end the confrontation? 
if you were to believe the Gracie propaganda 90% of all fights go to the ground, which nullifies boxing skills.
so without actual data lets say 50% of the time. now out of that 50% what percent of situations does boxing skills end the confrontation where its not a ground game?  well its still not 100% because very often there is a weapon or its as was said earlier a wrench hits you when your not looking.  how often is that?  as we factor in more and more variables we get a smaller and smaller percentage where boxing skills are applicable.  now im not against boxing, its actually my favorite segment of my training. its my go to skill.  but i am not willing to put all my eggs in that one basket. i want more skills in my tool box then  just boxing. so what skills do we need to learn to deal with that other section of the pie?
until you start to understand the psychology of fighting the attempts to fill in the gaps in your game plan is merely guessing.  
is cave man thumping appropriate in every situation...no.  just because someone is rude to you at the market, it doesnt warrant a punch in the head.  you cant just go around punching people in the head for every slight or comment you find offensive.  this is all self evident.  i think some people here just argue to argue.


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## Martial D (Nov 10, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> its a dumb point.  because no one said you fight with psychology.
> 
> its not a difficult logic to follow here.  my thoughs were as follows;
> does boxing work every single time in every situation?  no....ok then
> ...



I agree, though probably not with who the people are.

You are responding to arguments nobody made to support a point that seems to have little to do with your initial assertion vis a vis chest thumping.

Yes, there are situations that you can't respond to, but again, that does not paint boxing..or any style..into the corner you are attempting to diminish it to.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> its a dumb point.  because no one said you fight with psychology.
> 
> its not a difficult logic to follow here.  my thoughs were as follows;
> does boxing work every single time in every situation?  no....ok then
> ...



That is the other issue. You don't understand the psychology of fighting though.

Ever seen a 150kg islander in a fight? How much time do you think they have put in to psychology. Yet they seem to have this whole self defense thing locked down.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Sometimes. Sometimes there's no chest-thumping, at all. When there's chest-thumping, it's usually going to follow the predictable pattern, unless derailed.



Which is my experience. Sometimes there is chest thumping. Sometimes there isn't. 

Sometimes chest thumping leads to violence sometimes it doesn't.

If a wall of text was needed to explain that I think people are over complicating the issue.


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## drop bear (Nov 10, 2018)

Violence at the end point of the escalation process.









So violence half way through the escalation process.

Violence with no escalation.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


>



Who else knew the guy in the blue short was going to be the attacker from the very beginning of the video?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 11, 2018)

RTKDCMB said:


> Who else knew the guy in the blue short was going to be the attacker from the very beginning of the video?


No one.  That was the point I was trying to make ,which is why i posted that particular video.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> No one.  That was the point I was trying to make ,which is why i posted that particular video.


Knowing that it was a video of someone commuting  an assault it wasn't hard to pick who the attacker was going to be.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 11, 2018)

RTKDCMB said:


> Knowing that it was a video of someone commuting  an assault it wasn't hard to pick who the attacker was going to be.


 oh i see what you were asking.  i misunderstood.  i thought you were asking where the pre assault clues were in the video.


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## drop bear (Nov 11, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> No one.  That was the point I was trying to make ,which is why i posted that particular video.



So at no point could she have turned around and punched that guy?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So at no point could she have turned around and punched that guy?


Is it possible?  Yeah sure but you already got stabbed enough times that your gonna bleed out pretty quick. And as soon as you disengage and gain your footing to punch,  the assailant would usually take the opportunity to back off and flee. The damage was already done.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Which is my experience. Sometimes there is chest thumping. Sometimes there isn't.
> 
> Sometimes chest thumping leads to violence sometimes it doesn't.
> 
> If a wall of text was needed to explain that I think people are over complicating the issue.


What you know intuitively, can also be studied. And there's good reason to do so - sometimes what we "know" turns out not to be quite true. And once it's been studied, some folks like to dig into the detail of it, to understand it better, to see if there's anything more they make use of in it. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.

Personally, I haven't found much use beyond what you just posted. But I watch for folks like Hoshin who are digging around in the information, to see if they can find something more for me. And some folks' minds work better of detail than concept. So, horses for courses (the "courses" in this case being the minds).


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## drop bear (Nov 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What you know intuitively, can also be studied. And there's good reason to do so - sometimes what we "know" turns out not to be quite true. And once it's been studied, some folks like to dig into the detail of it, to understand it better, to see if there's anything more they make use of in it. Sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't.
> 
> Personally, I haven't found much use beyond what you just posted. But I watch for folks like Hoshin who are digging around in the information, to see if they can find something more for me. And some folks' minds work better of detail than concept. So, horses for courses (the "courses" in this case being the minds).



Yeah but it think hosin is making a few assumptions that I haven't found to be the case.

Like any clear line between a dominance monkey dance and a predatory attack.

Again except for the obvious. That if you don't give a guy any warning you get a better chance at them.


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## drop bear (Nov 12, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Is it possible?  Yeah sure but you already got stabbed enough times that your gonna bleed out pretty quick. And as soon as you disengage and gain your footing to punch,  the assailant would usually take the opportunity to back off and flee. The damage was already done.



So boxing could still be a viable skill even in an ambush attack.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> So boxing could still be a viable skill even in an ambush attack.


It's only a viable skill after the ambush.
1 boxing does nothing to prevent it, so it has no prior attack relevance 

2 you have to survive the initial burst of violence. I think a good cover like a peek a boo boxing type has defense value here but most often you behind the curve and it takes time to orient and start your offense. So after the initial ambush *IF *the attack is still on going then yes those boxing skills can really come into play. However most people who attack in a predatory ambush are not looking to actually fight. The violence is a method to facilitate a goal. Once you show an offensive, very often they will flee.
I am not saying it's not a good skill to have. I just think in this type of blind sided attack the percentages are low for its use. I actually think grappling has a higher percentage.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but it think hosin is making a few assumptions that I haven't found to be the case.
> 
> Like any clear line between a dominance monkey dance and a predatory attack.
> 
> Again except for the obvious. That if you don't give a guy any warning you get a better chance at them.


I think it depends how we define those two ("dominance monkey dance" and "predatory attack"). I can think of usages that would make a pretty clear distinction, forgiving a few, rare exceptions. It wouldn't match how I look at violence (more nuanced, fewer hard lines between categories), but I could see it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 12, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> It's only a viable skill after the ambush.
> 1 boxing does nothing to prevent it, so it has no prior attack relevance
> 
> 2 you have to survive the initial burst of violence. I think a good cover like a peek a boo boxing type has defense value here but most often you behind the curve and it takes time to orient and start your offense. So after the initial ambush *IF *the attack is still on going then yes those boxing skills can really come into play. However most people who attack in a predatory ambush are not looking to actually fight. The violence is a method to facilitate a goal. Once you show an offensive, very often they will flee.
> I am not saying it's not a good skill to have. I just think in this type of blind sided attack the percentages are low for its use. I actually think grappling has a higher percentage.


Realistically, much of MA/SD training doesn't do much to prevent the ambush. As for the second point,  I think most folks who've actually boxed (not folks like me who've just studied the technique) have been trained how to work from inside a maelstrom, for those times when their opponent overwhelms them. They have to be able to fight back out of that, or it's the end of the match. A lot of MA doesn't get around to working from this.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Realistically, much of MA/SD training doesn't do much to prevent the ambush


In all fairness your correct. My post was broken into three segments of time. Which is how my training methodology works. Before, during and after. I see events along a time line. Which is a complete topic in and of itself but I just want to clarify why that sentence was in that post.


gpseymour said:


> ...boxers...have been trained how to work from inside a maelstrom, for those times when their opponent overwhelms them.


Yes and no. There is some benefits but a boxer knows he is in a fight when in the ring. It's a lot different if your just standing in line at the grocery store. The attack is out of context.
However what was really my point is that in many instances the attacker will not be willing to square off and fight you.  If he does,, boxing (or any sport trained combat ...as per the OP post) gives you a huge advantage.   But predatory attacks usually are not going to do that.


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## drop bear (Nov 13, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Yes and no. There is some benefits but a boxer knows he is in a fight when in the ring. It's a lot different if your just standing in line at the grocery store. The attack is out of context.
> However what was really my point is that in many instances the attacker will not be willing to square off and fight you. If he does,, boxing (or any sport trained combat ...as per the OP post) gives you a huge advantage. But predatory attacks usually are not going to do that.



Yes but are you taking the obvious advantage of an ambush attack and applying it to boxing as some sort of flaw?


 Because you are missing elements in your conclusion. So yes a boxer in a boxing match is ready. But a boxer in that match does have strategies for when he is being overwhelmed. To minimize that damage.  And a boxer is conditioned to take punches.

We call that training for deep water. You are in the middle of a fight and you are tired and you are beat up. And you have to have a strategy for turning that around. That generally has to be trained by putting the guy under pressure and on that back foot again and again until that is second nature.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 13, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> In all fairness your correct. My post was broken into three segments of time. Which is how my training methodology works. Before, during and after. I see events along a time line. Which is a complete topic in and of itself but I just want to clarify why that sentence was in that post.
> 
> Yes and no. There is some benefits but a boxer knows he is in a fight when in the ring. It's a lot different if your just standing in line at the grocery store. The attack is out of context.
> However what was really my point is that in many instances the attacker will not be willing to square off and fight you.  If he does,, boxing (or any sport trained combat ...as per the OP post) gives you a huge advantage.   But predatory attacks usually are not going to do that.


Agreed. Again, that's a limitation for all of us. If I'm attacked, it's probably not going to be in a dojo or group exercise room, while I'm wearing my superman suit. My point was that boxers are trained to handle a moment when they are overwhelmed, to keep control of themselves and work to regain control of the situation. That's more than can actually be said of a lot of directly SD-oriented training.


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