# How about escapes from hand shakes?



## still learning (Mar 9, 2006)

Hello, I read about one and we did it in our class. From Mac the Anmimal MacYoung book.

A customer was ask to leave...giving "Mac" a hard time, He reach his hand out to shake the drunks hands and when the guy put out his hand. Mac pull the guy hand between the guys legs and step around the guys back and push the guy out the door holding the guys hands. 

You could also keep pulling and fliping the guys upside down on to his back.

This was a good trick to use.........hard to escape from this once your hand is between your legs and is pull to your back, because you are bent over. ............Aloha


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## Hand Sword (Mar 9, 2006)

Yeah, that was one of the ending points from one of my very first club defenses. Even as a youngster, I always found it cool that the person could be flipped on their back with ease, just by pulling up.


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## Drac (Mar 9, 2006)

The Combat Hapkido DVD's have a number of techniques for "Escapes from a hostle handsake", but I totally forgot about those..Thanks for reminding me *still learning*.


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## kyushoT (Mar 9, 2006)

Not wanting to get in to a big technique explaination... Too much typing. Check out info on "Small Circle Jujutsu." I don't know about tapes. But, I know Wally Jay has at least one good book, with some very descriptive techniques for what your speaking of.
They are explained well enough, that you can take them to the class setting and work on them.


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## Kenpobldr (Mar 9, 2006)

It sounds very simular to "Gift in Return" from Parker Kenpo.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

Handshake moves are party tricks really. The best advice is never shake someone who you think is going to fight you's hand - they may use it to assist a sucker attack (headbutt, stab to ribs with other hand etc). If you really must shake their hand, be ready to smack them really damn hard if they do anything remotely suspicious and don't be intimidated if they try to squeeze your hand. IMO.


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## shesulsa (Mar 9, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Handshake moves are party tricks really. The best advice is never shake someone who you think is going to fight you's hand - they may use it to assist a sucker attack (headbutt, stab to ribs with other hand etc). If you really must shake their hand, be ready to smack them really damn hard if they do anything remotely suspicious and don't be intimidated if they try to squeeze your hand. IMO.


It seems your general philosophy is to "smack them really hard" which is not technique, just thuggery.

Back to the discussion on technique:  This is difficult to explain, but having the upper hand in a handshake is easy and important to do if you have strong hands and good technique.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 9, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> It seems your general philosophy is to "smack them really hard" which is not technique, just thuggery.
> 
> Back to the discussion on technique:  This is difficult to explain, but having the upper hand in a handshake is easy and important to do if you have strong hands and good technique.


Thuggery... kind of if you like to put it that way. I think that a common sense rule of hitting people is to do it damn hard - no benefit comes from pulling punches. But I disagree that it lacks "technique". Competant striking requires skill, no real doubt about that. 

The issue surely comes down to reasonable force, and how/where such party trick techniques (by which I mean techniques which work well on compliant and semi-resisting opponents but generally not against a really determined attack) fit into a scalable response model. 

I believe that you should only defend yourself if you believe there to be real danger to your person (and/or others). So if someone goes to shake your hand they fit into two catagories - those you believe _are_ going to attack you, and those you believe _aren't_ going to attack you. Thus the first group need to be treated to something more reliable than party tricks, and the latter you have no justification for doing anything to at all. 

Thus these party tricks end up being a nice show for your friends to play "what if" etc.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

One of our most basic drills on learning the points of balance in kamae involves a simple handshake.  It's very easy to pull somebody off balance with a handshake if you know what you're doing and they don't.

Even easier if you step on their foot.

One of my favorite drills starts with a handshake and then a punch from the other hand.  Avoid the punch simply by pulling on the hand you're holding.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 9, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> One of my favorite drills starts with a handshake and then a punch from the other hand.  Avoid the punch simply by pulling on the hand you're holding.


The thing about the handshake is that for someone to do anything from a handshake they will have to "pull" or "tug" your hand, because they have to change their body position (ie, for one shoulder to come forward the other shoulder has to naturally go back, otherwise there is no power or attack).  People naturally want to resist the pull or tug.  Unfortunately this sets the victim up, to the proper distance for the attack.  

It is far better to flow with the tug.  There are many goodies you can get from there.  By flowing, you can take their balance and torque them up really nice while avoiding the other hand because the range has changed for them and you are closer than they expected and you have their balance.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

Hmm. I disagree. Not about the value of flowing. There's definitely good work to be done there - at a later timing than my example.

And, the principle that you explain is exactly what helps avoid the strike in my example. By pulling their opposite shoulder forward you rob power. By positioning their body correctly, they can't even reach you any longer. It's better if you use an angle because they'll have less balance to fight your pull, and I like to pull across their body. And, of course you want to use timing and distractions so that they can't fight your pull at all.

BUT, you certainly don't have to tug to throw a strike of your own. Especially with the mechanics we typically use for punching. Power is generated starting from the opposite foot as the punching hand. You can certainly hold the handshake stationary. I'm sure you see how it will end up closer to your body, but no tug is necessary - or advised if it's you who is doing the punching. Just think of it as another point of sensitivity, and be prepared to escape if you need that limb for something else.

I might hold onto it, because it'll be very nice for the sidemount that's common after one of the Gyaku, or if I want to attack the elbo in a direction like Musha Dori.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 9, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> By pulling their opposite shoulder forward you rob power. It's better if you use an angle because they'll have less balance to fight your pull, and I like to pull across their body. And, of course you want to use timing and distractions so that they can't fight your pull at all.


You brute!   Just kidding, of course  The principles you described, I am talking about, but not by pulling them or yanking on them. 



			
				rutherford said:
			
		

> BUT, you certainly don't have to tug to throw a strike of your own. Especially with the mechanics we typically use for punching.


I know, isn't that wonderful!


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## still learning (Mar 9, 2006)

Hello, One of the things we teach is if someone does not let go of the hand shakes (hostel sitution), Strike the person hands doing the handshake with a chop and off course be ready for anything. 

Or grab the guys thumb and bent it backwards,Your handshake.. push up and toward the person right shoulder and your other hand push is elbows for a nice move?  always be ready for the next......thing........

Thanks for sharing...............Aloha


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## SAVAGE (Mar 9, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> It seems your general philosophy is to "smack them really hard" which is not technique, just thuggery.
> 
> Back to the discussion on technique: This is difficult to explain, but having the upper hand in a handshake is easy and important to do if you have strong hands and good technique.


 
I was gonna give you SIX WHOLE REP POINTS for this!! But I gotta share the love!

I agree it is just thuggery!

My take on Handshakes.....it is just different variations of inside wrist grab techniques!

HKD rocks at this stuff..as for wrist locks being party tricks...if you try to grab a HKD/JJJ/BJJ/Judo/aikido artists wrist..I can guarantee it wont be no party!


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## Sarah (Mar 9, 2006)

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> My take on Handshakes.....it is just different variations of inside wrist grab techniques!


 
Agreed..you can use some pretty fun wrist locks from this position


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## SAVAGE (Mar 9, 2006)

Sarah said:
			
		

> Agreed..you can use some pretty fun wrist locks from this position


 
depends on which side of the lock you are on!!

:uhyeah:


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## Adept (Mar 10, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> It seems your general philosophy is to "smack them really hard" which is not technique, just thuggery.



I don't see how it's thuggery. Thuggery would be belting someone really hard for the express purpose of taking their wallet.

Unrefined, perhaps. But unrefined techniques are easy to learn, and easy to employ and usually very powerful.

And I agree with the man; if you're going to hit someone, hit them so it counts.


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## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, Good replys...lets all shake hands on this......Aloha


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## Peter Steeves (Mar 10, 2006)

Handshakes are actually a very important topic to consider for protection purposes. There are very few business people today who can do very well without shaking a lot of hands (notable exception: Donald Trump, who HATES to shake hands because of a fear of germs).

An overzealous person (whether an angry person, or an excited "fan" in a greeting line) is likely to keep that grip a little too long, and/or a little too strong. Having some ways to intervene for yourself or someone else is a primary skill that should be practiced from various angles.


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## MJS (Mar 10, 2006)

Adept said:
			
		

> I don't see how it's thuggery. Thuggery would be belting someone really hard for the express purpose of taking their wallet.
> 
> Unrefined, perhaps. But unrefined techniques are easy to learn, and easy to employ and usually very powerful.
> 
> And I agree with the man; if you're going to hit someone, hit them so it counts.


 
I don't want to speak for her, but I took the posts as this.  It seems like the mentality is to solve all situations with hitting someone in the face.  While it is an option, we should not limit ourselves to just that, considering that every situation may not warrant it.  If you're conditioned to do nothing but that, IMO, options are going to be limited, as you won't know anything else.


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## HKphooey (Mar 10, 2006)

Handshakes are considered a gesture of goodwill, so when your handshake turns into a nice elbow to the sternum or throat when your attacker pulls you in ("Gift of Destiny" variation).  Not using your hands or fists helps when the lawyers come knocking at the door.  

Too many wrist lock options, so little time.   Handshake drills can be a valuable training tool.  Handshakes are very close to a wrist grab.


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## evenflow1121 (Mar 10, 2006)

2 things one that comes to mind is one Gift of Destiny.

The other is the whole issue of lawyers.  Doesnt matter if you hit the guy in the face or in the sternum or wherever. I am not a lawyer, but at least in the state where I live, if the guy has a few witnesses and they are a reliable source, for example, it can be documented that they were at the particular place and time of the occurence, he may be able to press charges whether you hit him in the sternum or face.  So in a volatile situation worry about saving your ***, and just dont use exessive force.


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## HKphooey (Mar 10, 2006)

I hear you on that.  I was assuming there were witnesses around as the original post alluded.  I cannot be held resposible far a guy that makes an aggressive move and is the one initiating my movement towards him with a pull.  I know this is getting technical, but that is what happens in the court rooms.  

It all goes back to one of the posts... I think most of us have the common sense not to shake hands with some one that is drunk, abusive, seems a little "touched".  

Being married to a layer makes you think in funny ways.  

Take care.


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 11, 2006)

i always found hand shake defenses sort of funny.  not that you shouldn't know them, but there seem to be so many and so much energy spent learning them.  pretty rare attack scenario, imo.

the technique that started this post is very much like the EPAK 'gift in return'.  there's a sister technique to it in the tracy system, too.

question:  we learn lot of these handshake and wrist grab defenses.  both rare (though wrist grabs are more common for women).  what movement concepts can we learn from them to apply to more common attacks?


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## Martial Tucker (Mar 11, 2006)

Handshake defenses were also discussed  not long ago in this thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=496090#post496090
In that thread, I posted this:

"As for why you should train a bit for it, I will tell you that here in Chicago, a very popular means of mugging people a while back was to approach a stranger with your hand extended, acting as if you were approaching an old friend that you haven't seen in years. The vast majority of people that you do this to will blindly just stick their hand out and accept your handshake while they try to figure out who the hell you are, and why they can't remember you. As soon as the attacker has your hand (the dominant hand for most people) you are very vulnerable to a sucker punch, as stated earlier, or a 2nd attacker may then approach from behind."

We train for various responses to an unfriendly handshake ranging from a pain inducing only response, suitable for an obnoxoius drunk relative at a family gathering, all the way up to arm break/throws for situations like the one I mentioned above. Not a focal point of our training, but not a trivial risk to ignore, either....


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 11, 2006)

I learned in Balintawak a nice Thumb Peel. I teach this to women in particular who are afraid they might get their hands squeezed from the bigger guys. 

You place your hand on top of theirs for the shake. You middle finger goes along their thumb, while your thumb finds the end of their thumb. You peel back their thumb while compressing the nail and last joint of the thumb. One cannot squeeze well without the thumb. 

No I agree, in situation on the street I might not do this. In a sports bar where most of the guys think they have been in a *"REAL"* fight in their lives, would shake your hands to save face. They might also be trying to squeeze you and show how strong they are. Just peel back and voila they look like the fools. 

While your have two of your hands on theirs, you must continue to monitor their motions. If they go to pull back without letting go, then step to the outside and stay with them. This makes it harder for them to stick a knife into your with their left. Not impossible just harder. So, while you have both hands on theirs you can move your left up to his elbow, and this gives you pivot control of the opponent. If he lefts go, then you strike a groin strike with your right. If he punches with his left and hangs on with his right, you can still step outside causing him to cross himself and have no power. You can bring your hands up and trap his punch into your shake. Lost of ways to move from their. 

Once one gets two or three deep it requires the person to see, not just see with the minds eye to follow the flow of the techniques.


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## still learning (Mar 12, 2006)

Hello, In our schools, we always shakes hands in the beginning and end of class.  The kids today have learn this well.  When ever we meet outside of training (food markets,Wal-mart,etc). We greet each other with handshakes including the parents.   .........this is good......Aloha


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## lonecoyote (Mar 15, 2006)

I've been on the receiving end of the handshake sucker punch in real life. I just don't shake w/people if I'm in a situation I'm not sure about. The macho handshake squeeze is really juvenile. You might just run into someone who loves his Captains of Crush grippers, thick handled dumbbells, and sledgehammer levering, like me. If you do, just keep smiling, and try to keep the eyes from tearing up. I'll let go in a second I promise, just don't do it again.


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 16, 2006)

Keep your index finger pointed out while shaking someones hand.  Makes it a lot harder for that crushing grip, no matter how much stronger they are.  Heck, sure ya'll allready know that.


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