# I feel used and dirty



## Don Roley (Oct 3, 2006)

Ok,
I really am a nice guy that tries to help people. I try to give people what they need. Sometimes that is a good kick in the pants. But sometimes they just need some information or a resource.

So, on another forum a guy asks about getting some books by Fujita Seiko- the guy who was a great researcher of Japanese martial arts as well as claiming to be the last grandmaster of Koga ryu ninjutsu. I do a quick search and the source I used to know seems to have gone out of business.

Well, if someone is willing to do me a favor, I am willing to do them a favor. I though that if he would cover all of my expenses as well as including a 6 hour tape of an English kids show to help my children learn English I could make a run to the bookstores that sell the book and send them off to him.

Everyone wins, eh?

But the response I get from the guy tells me straight out that he he is going to take these books and then try to make a combination of Togakure ryu and Koga ryu ninjutsu.

Now, aside from the fact that all these books do not even deal with Koga ryu ninjutsu, there is the very real fact that you could not learn this type of thing from a book anyways. Not enough to create an art. And there is the sillyness of the idea that someone like this was skilled enough at Bujinkan to know what is Togakure ryu _ninjutsu _ and what is Gyokko ryu _koshijutsu_.

I tried to help someone, and it looks like I would have helped someone to do something I consider a big mistake at best and probably immoral. It is really discouraging to me to think that I could have helped someone do this type of thing. I feel used and dirty in a way.

I don't know. Should I have never offered? Should I have just done it since he probably will find a source anyways? Did I overreact to someone trying to create something without even the bare minimum of qualifications I could respect?


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## exile (Oct 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> I don't know. Should I have never offered? Should I have just done it since he probably will find a source anyways? Did I overreact to someone trying to create something without even the bare minimum of qualifications I could respect?



Don---just my opinion, but I don't see how there could be anything wrong with you offering. It was a generous impulse and my own view is, the generous impulse is the right one, unless there's some good compelling reason to disregard it---and there was no such reason at the time you offered? But having learned that the guy was going to do something as hare-brained as what you described, there was no reason at all for you to go ahead and collaborate with this guy's delusions. And no, you didn't overreact. Someone who wants to do what you report as this guy's intention clearly doesn't have the faintest sense of what any particular MA _is_, how it works, what it's for, or why you should learn it. He's got all kinds of delusions about what he's doing running at once---why would anyone expect you to go along with them? It's like starting a conversation with someone who seems reasonable but who you discover, after a little while, is actually seriously mentally disturbed: best you can do is back away slowly, feeling behind you for the doorknob. (I'm not saying this guy is nuts, but he's so out of it in this particular area that he might as well be... JMHO). You did the right things, you've nothing to feel bad about---again, just my take on it...


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## bydand (Oct 3, 2006)

Don, it sounds like you did what most people would do.  Take somebody at face value and use what knowledge and resources were alvaliable to help them.  Were you used, sounds like it, but don't second guess yourself.  Your motives and willingness to help were above board and there is no way you could have known that the individual wasn't dealing you the whole truth.  If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't feel too bad because you know you didn't violate your own views and held onto your own honesty, how others use information is on their own heart.  IMHO


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## saru1968 (Oct 3, 2006)

Don,

If you were prepared to take the time to help someone that indicates a good heart to me. I lose count of the times I've been let down by those I help, but it does not change me. I'm just more selective about getting to know someone before I offer help.

I remember last year when I made my first trip to Japan and a few Instructors asked if i could drop a few presents over to Budo friends they knew that lived in Japan. Half my suitcase was full with presents and very heavy, mind you it was full of Tabi on the return trip!

I'm in the Uk, if there are any kids programs over her you want let me know and I will do me best to find them for you.


Gary


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## DavidCC (Oct 3, 2006)

You can use something like Azureus and easily download bit torrents of pretty much any TV show you want...

http://isohunt.com/torrents.php?ihq=sesame+street&ext=&op=and


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## Ceicei (Oct 3, 2006)

Don,

If it is any consolation, that guy may fall flat on his face anyway, and he will do it with or without your help.  Even though you provided him with the books, the guy is going to learn very quickly it is not as easy as he thought, and that he is going to be in for a very difficult time trying to pull it off.  I think you just simply speeded the progress for his fall.

What you did is good, and you should feel good about helping--don't let the actions of one ruin your desire to do so.  You had no way of knowing exactly what his intentions were until you found out, so don't beat yourself up about this.

- Ceicei


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## Rook (Oct 3, 2006)

I think you did nothing wrong.  The more information out there, the better - both for telling frauds from real practitioners of an art, and for telling the skilled from the unskilled.  Besides, if this guy now starts going around telling people his art descended from Fujita, you can always link back to thread and show how he learned about Fujita.


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## kenpo0324 (Oct 3, 2006)

Any one of us would of did the samething you did and you should feel great about helping someone --don't let the actions of one ruin your desire to help other people. You had no way of knowing exactly what his intentions were until you found out, so don't beat yourself up about this.


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 3, 2006)

bydand said:


> Don, it sounds like you did what most people would do.  Take somebody at face value and use what knowledge and resources were alvaliable to help them.  Were you used, sounds like it, but don't second guess yourself.  Your motives and willingness to help were above board and there is no way you could have known that the individual wasn't dealing you the whole truth.  If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't feel too bad because you know you didn't violate your own views and held onto your own honesty, how others use information is on their own heart.  IMHO



Exactly what he said Don. Don't beat yourself up over this.


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## Dale Seago (Oct 3, 2006)

How do you s'pose Soke feels when someone takes what he has given them, sometimes over a period of years, and then runs off and . . . Well, you get the idea. He keeps going.


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## bencole (Oct 3, 2006)

Dale Seago said:


> How do you s'pose Soke feels when someone takes what he has given them, sometimes over a period of years, and then runs off and . . . Well, you get the idea. He keeps going.


 
I agree with Dale.

Sounds like something that Hatsumi-sensei has experienced over and over and over and over again. In the end, we are lucky that it hasn't, at heart, changed Hatsumi-sensei's willingness to help the next lost soul to enter the dojo.

Keep that in mind, Don, as you consider whether you should just "screen better" or instead "take down the OPEN sign at the door."

-ben


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## Cryozombie (Oct 3, 2006)

Don, 

I tried to PM you but your box is full.


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## w_makit (Oct 3, 2006)

As a side-line, what was the television show?

-Bill


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 3, 2006)

I would not worry about it but I understand this problem all to closely.  Keep going and be true to your heart.


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## bydand (Oct 3, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Don,
> 
> I tried to PM you but your box is full.



Same here.


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## ArmorOfGod (Oct 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Well, if someone is willing to do me a favor, I am willing to do them a favor. I though that if he would cover all of my expenses as well as including a 6 hour tape of an English kids show to help my children learn English I could make a run to the bookstores that sell the book and send them off to him.


 
What English kids show are you looking for?  Any or one in particular?

AoG


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## Brother John (Oct 3, 2006)

I think I see where you are coming from man...
but really, it's HIS mistake. No matter how "good" the info is, if he's trying to do something that can't be done...
it won't be.

What people do with info is up to them.

Your Brother
John


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## Don Roley (Oct 3, 2006)

Thanks for the responses. I think I should point out that I did not send anything to him. He told me before I could send the stuff what he intended to do with it. I told him to save his money and cut off communication. I feel dirty in that I came so close to helping someone like that. Instead of 40 pieces of silver it would have been for a tape of Blue's Clues.

It is kind of one of those things that makes me nervous about putting too much out on the internet. There is a lot of frauds that will take any information they can to make their story look good. When I put stuff out there for everyone to see, I am pretty sure that at least a few frauds are goign to use the stuff. But in this case I would have delivered some information to one person but not to the world as a whole. So no one who IMO is decent would have gotten the info, but the guy wanting to create his own hybrid art would have.

Oh, and I cleared out some space in my mailbox.


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## Rook (Oct 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> It is kind of one of those things that makes me nervous about putting too much out on the internet. There is a lot of frauds that will take any information they can to make their story look good. When I put stuff out there for everyone to see, I am pretty sure that at least a few frauds are goign to use the stuff. But in this case I would have delivered some information to one person but not to the world as a whole. So no one who IMO is decent would have gotten the info, but the guy wanting to create his own hybrid art would have.


 
I'm always less worried about frauds getting information than that the people who might look out for frauds can't find it.  If you look at the systems most often claimed by the phony grandmasters, you find that they tend to be disciplines about which little is commonly known that they might get "busted" on - there are a lot of fake ninjas and not a lot of fake judoists.  

I hope you will consider putting some of this stuff out there so that everyone can see it before he gets it from someone else and the greater community doesn't have the ability to call him on it.


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## jks9199 (Oct 3, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Thanks for the responses. I think I should point out that I did not send anything to him. He told me before I could send the stuff what he intended to do with it. I told him to save his money and cut off communication. I feel dirty in that I came so close to helping someone like that. Instead of 40 pieces of silver it would have been for a tape of Blue's Clues.
> 
> It is kind of one of those things that makes me nervous about putting too much out on the internet. There is a lot of frauds that will take any information they can to make their story look good. When I put stuff out there for everyone to see, I am pretty sure that at least a few frauds are goign to use the stuff. But in this case I would have delivered some information to one person but not to the world as a whole. So no one who IMO is decent would have gotten the info, but the guy wanting to create his own hybrid art would have.
> 
> Oh, and I cleared out some space in my mailbox.


You made a kind offer.  He told you he intended to do something you consider to be unwise (at a bare minimum) if not unethical.  You made a choice about completing the deal that was in accord with your own ethics and beliefs.  No problem...

If the guy is set on doing something, he's going to do it.  But that doesn't mean you are compelled to assist him.

And, as a couple of people mentioned, the more accurate information (not technique manuals!) that's out there, the more people like me can recognize a fake.


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## Shizen Shigoku (Oct 3, 2006)

Only teach half of what you know
& always be able to kill your students


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## Brother John (Oct 3, 2006)

Shizen Shigoku said:


> Only teach half of what you know
> & always be able to kill your students




..nice..







                   Your brother
John


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## bushi jon (Oct 4, 2006)

Don Good Day sir I bet I still have every barney,blue clues and seaseme street tape there is. If you would like them I will gladly send what I have as far as dis and learning stuff. Just give me a P.M and let me know


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## buyu (Oct 27, 2006)

its been my experience brother that karma kicks **** as i have experienced both sides of it i feel i can tell you this. Hey you couldve given him the books and you still wouldve received a pat on the back from karma for helping but this person wouldve got a well decerved kick in the **** so either way you have helped this person so this is why you have people offering to send their tapes to you brother.
So what do you prefer the wiggles or hi five, i like hi five better but my son whos two preffers the wiggles i think its the song mashed banana mashed banana thats got him hooked cause he always sings it


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