# First angry parent.. .



## SahBumNimRush (Oct 10, 2011)

For those of you who do not know, I took over my Sahbumnim's dojang after he retired in April '11.  I recently had a pretest for 2nd Dan candidates who are preparing for their 2nd Dan examination in January 2012, and 3 of my seniors were present to observe the students' progress.  The candidates had just got through their hyungs, when the parent of the teenage candidate informed me that she had school work that had to be submitted online before midnight that night.  Before I excused her, I asked her if she was aware that the pretest was tonight, which she confirmed.  I then asked her what she did that day, in an attempt for her to justify why she had not completed her school work prior to coming to the pretest.  In our association, education and family are put in high regard, but it is also understood that time management and priorities are part of the self-discipline taught and fostered within our dojang.  When she had nothing to answer me, I suggested that she think about her priorities and time management and have the discipline to abide by them.  

She agreed, and then I dismissed her.

As I was finishing the pretest of the other two 2nd dan candidates, I saw the father in the back of the dojang.  I excused myself from the examiners table to speak with the father, as I was surprised he had not left yet.  Apparently the father had taken his daughter home, and came back LIVID that I had the audacity to tell him how to raise his children, and that he was pulling his daughter from class and wanted his money back.  Standing in my face, pointing his finger within inches of my face, saying that I needed to take a lesson from my students and learn humility, that things had severely changed for the poorer since my sahbumnim left, etc. etc. etc.  

Keep in mind that my Sahbumnim was present at the pretest, and no one other than the girl and her father felt that anything that was said or done was out of line.  

I have been told by my seniors, "welcome to the club" and that he will be just one of many that will try to assert themselves into how you teach.  It was difficult not to take things personally, since I always strive to conduct myself how my instructors have taught me.  I am just curious as to other school owners' experiences, and how they have dealt with situations like this in the past.

**EDIT:  the student is home schooled


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## Cyriacus (Oct 10, 2011)

Sounds to me like a classical case of someone getting upset because theyre not in Charge.

Id have asked him if that was his Daughters idea, or his idea for her. That way, hell either condemn himself with his answer, or have a revelation of understanding.
Win-Win.


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## dancingalone (Oct 10, 2011)

It's a shame that the father felt your statement was about his parenting skills rather than attempting to address a teachable moment for his daughter.

As for my thoughts on how I would have handled it... I'm big on things like punctuality and commitment.  I tell my students that if they are late to he tan examination, they will be allowed to watch and even participate if they wish, but they will not be formally testing that day and will not be promoting either until the next opportunity.  Advancement is both a privilege and responsibility.  If I had such a thing as a pretest, I would have the same rule and announce it ahead of time.  If you can't participate fully at time reserved, you'll just have to wait until next time.  Perhaps Dad would have reacted differently knowing this going in, but my guess is probably not.


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## joshbrown (Oct 10, 2011)

you should have knocked the dad out with a roundhouse kick to the face!


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## Jenna (Oct 10, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> For those of you who do not know, I took over my Sahbumnim's dojang after he retired in April '11.  I recently had a pretest for 2nd Dan candidates who are preparing for their 2nd Dan examination in January 2012, and 3 of my seniors were present to observe the students' progress.  The candidates had just got through their hyungs, when the parent of the teenage candidate informed me that she had school work that had to be submitted online before midnight that night.  Before I excused her, I asked her if she was aware that the pretest was tonight, which she confirmed.  I then asked her what she did that day, in an attempt for her to justify why she had not completed her school work prior to coming to the pretest.  In our association, education and family are put in high regard, but it is also understood that time management and priorities are part of the self-discipline taught and fostered within our dojang.  When she had nothing to answer me, I suggested that she think about her priorities and time management and have the discipline to abide by them.
> 
> She agreed, and then I dismissed her.
> 
> ...


It is a cliche yes and but I think there are always two sides in misunderstandings like these.  

Not knowing how that went down, it does sound as if the parent acted with rashness?  I do not know if that was with cause?

It is always your choice to enforce the moral and ethic principles of your school.  It is likewise always the choice of the parent to leave if they cannot abide by your policies adn you must likewise accept that.

Might I suggest that perhaps they were not made aware of the policies?  Perhaps that is not the case.  Nevertheless, at some stage communication has failed here, whether from you to student or from student to parent or somewhere else in the chain.  I am sorry that you had to face this.  Plainly you are not trying to teach anyone parenting, you are simply enforcing school policy which you feel to be in the best interest of students.  

I can only suggest you notch it to experience and ensure that all new families have explained to them in no uncertain or easily misunderstood terms the extent of your school policies and ethic so these gross misunderstandings does not happen again.

I hope there is some good to come of it for you.


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## decepticon (Oct 10, 2011)

Homeschooling has nothing to do with this. You have rules and the family involved either did not make it their business to know them or felt that the rules did not extend to them. These people are doing you (and perhaps others) a favor by leaving. Let them go.

There will always be people who are powder kegs just waiting to blow. Occasionally each of us has the misfortune of being the person who interacted with them just before they went off. Sounds like your rules are reasonable, you were polite and clear in your explanation of what their choice would cost them, and you showed admirable restraint by not taking (and manifesting) offense at the father. I would ask you to also consider whether this family had been taking up more than their share of your time or other resources. Often that type of person falls into the old 80/20 principle, being among the troublesome 20% who use up 80% of your time to keep properly placated or informed. If that describes them, then good riddance!


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## Buka (Oct 10, 2011)

I think it's written somewhere in the scriptures, "There's always one more son of a b**** than you counted on." or something like that.
 I feel bad for the girl having a dad with that type of attitude, ESPECIALLY being home schooled. Home schooling can be great - depending on who's doing the teaching.

But you come out of this a winner, she and dad aren't likely to disturb the harmony of your dojang again.

Since you asked about other school owners experiences - I taught honor and respect as much as I taught anything else. (the same as you, would be my guess) I always bowed politely and told them not to let the door hit them in the *** on the way out. When you're in charge, be in charge. Your students and their parents will love you for it.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 10, 2011)

decepticon said:


> Homeschooling has nothing to do with this. You have rules and the family involved either did not make it their business to know them or felt that the rules did not extend to them. These people are doing you (and perhaps others) a favor by leaving. Let them go.
> 
> There will always be people who are powder kegs just waiting to blow. Occasionally each of us has the misfortune of being the person who interacted with them just before they went off. Sounds like your rules are reasonable, you were polite and clear in your explanation of what their choice would cost them, and you showed admirable restraint by not taking (and manifesting) offense at the father. I would ask you to also consider whether this family had been taking up more than their share of your time or other resources. Often that type of person falls into the old 80/20 principle, being among the troublesome 20% who use up 80% of your time to keep properly placated or informed. If that describes them, then good riddance!



The home schooling detail is only important because her assignment was due to be submitted online by 12:00 AM, which is a deadline not common in public school.  At least that is what the father told me.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 11, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> The home schooling detail is only important because her assignment was due to be submitted online by 12:00 AM, which is a deadline not common in public school.  At least that is what the father told me.



Personally I think that the girl and her father need to learn that a deadline isn't _when_ you have to do something, it's when you have to have it done _by_.  What if she'd been ill.  Or her internet provider was having technical problems.  She left it to the last minute.  She was in the wrong.

I think you handled it fine, being sarcastic I would have said "there's no extra charge for the lesson about how to manage deadlines, you're welcome" - but then again I'd have also walked away or asked him to leave the moment he raised his voice or started pointing his finger in my face.  I really don't suffer fools gladly...


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## punisher73 (Oct 11, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> The home schooling detail is only important because her assignment was due to be submitted online by 12:00 AM, which is a deadline not common in public school. At least that is what the father told me.



Poor management skills by the parents if they knew about this deadline and your pretest and didn't help make sure that all of that was done prior to that.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 11, 2011)

One owes certain courtesies to one's school and teacher.  Assuming (as I'm sure you did) you had made the testing rules plain to the student, and since she is a minor, to her parents, I think the parent had no good reason to expect he could get his daughter out of the testing.  Due to military duties, I missed several tests when I took TKD many years ago.  I knew the rules and felt disappointment, but not at my teacher nor the school.  It wasn't their fault I wasn't able to participate.

I don't know the rules of home schooling, but I thought testing, if done by the State, was done at semester ends.  I think some states only require certification from the parent as to what was taught, but I don't know.  You have me curious so I will ask about the rules in VA.

Lastly, I can't imagine the girl, who has worked her way to testing for 2nd Dan, doesn't know better.  I have to wonder if the parent didn't feel somehow responsible for the lack of meeting the time line, therefore feeling guilty, but taking it out on you.  It would have perhaps been different if he and his daughter could have provided some explanation, and asked for consideration, but depending on how often you test, and how firm you are (and considering my own past acceptance) I don't know that you would need to feel constrainged to relent.  Rules cease to become rules if they are always bent.

I also wonder why the father injected himself at all.  Again, we are talking about a BB trying to advance, who by now should be fending for herself in the dojang.  And I wonder why there was the wait until part of the test had been completed.  Somehow, I sense some other dynamic in play here.

I think your were correct in your actions, and frankly, would want to have some understandings with both the student and her parents before allowing them back.  That was very bad form and most insulting, to make such a scene during testing, in your dojang.  I hope you commented on it to the other students and family.  It would have been appropriate to do so imho.  Departures from dojang discipline of that extent, should not be ignored out of embarassment, but used as teaching opportunities for others.

As to the money, you might want to talk to an attourney about that, depending on the amount.  One month's dues, or one practice testing fee might be worth giving back just to make sure you don't see them again, unless you think the father might then demand all past money.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 11, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> This is my biggest issue with the situation, that and how the father handled the situation after the fact.  The student was given an opportunity to justify her necessity to leave her pretest due to school work.  She admitted that she should have better managed her time, and that was the end of it.. . until the father came back irate.  It is difficult for me to know who really took offense to the situation; the daughter, the father, or a combination there of.
> 
> However, it should have been a non-issue.  The pretest had been scheduled over a month in advance.  She knew that her test would be at the end, and that pretest/test nights take longer than regular class nights.  All students and parents know (and SHOULD understand) that part of the tradition of our school is self-discipline.  She should have had the discipline to get her school work done prior to coming to class.  If there were extenuating circumstances that arose that would have prevented her from testing that evening, she and/or her parents should have notified me prior to her walking on the floor.
> 
> ...


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## Carol (Oct 11, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> The home schooling detail is only important because her assignment was due to be submitted online by 12:00 AM, which is a deadline not common in public school.  At least that is what the father told me.



Actually, this is becoming more common.   I'm not sure about K-12 public schools across the board, but in environments where there is  online/distance-learning classes, online collaboration, or even online submission of assignments, there are strict deadlines for completing the work and uploading it.  My 15 y.o. nephew is in a college gateway program (some states call these Early College programs) which is one of accelerated academics.  Its a commitment to 5 years of high school, but he will graduate with both a H.S. diploma and an Associates in the discipline of his choosing).  He is required to have a laptop and submit assignments online.  Also, my coursework for my 2nd bachelors at UMass was all required to be  submitted online by a certain deadline, whether I was taking the class  online or on-campus.  

That being said, there is basically no difference between an assignment due at 12 Midnight, and an assignment due first thing the following morning.  I believe you were correct in  your actions.  Time management is critical to succeed in college and/or the professional world.


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## decepticon (Oct 11, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> The home schooling detail is only important because her assignment was due to be submitted online by 12:00 AM, which is a deadline not common in public school.  At least that is what the father told me.



She must have been doing one of the online homeschools then. I know that many of them require a certain amount of work be done within a specific time frame. Traditional homeschooling has no arbitrary deadlines other than those set by the parents themselves. I agree with Andy, the problem seems to be one of not comprehending how to work with deadlines more than anything.

Different states have different rules regarding homeschooling, ranging from a totally hands-off approach to quite a bit of government regulation and requirements. In most states, the virtual/online school students are technically still considered to be enrolled in the public school system. In most of these schools, a specific amount of work has to be done within a certain amount of time, which is probably where this deadline came from. From all I've heard about these things, such deadlines are never given on short notice, so the father was probably mad at the kid or himself/primary home teacher for not managing their time better and meeting the deadline and took it out on you. Testing is a whole other matter, and again varies by state. Some don't require any while others do require an achievement test at the end of the year for homeschoolers.

We do traditional homeschooling, so I can determine when work is due and can allow extenuating circumstances when I feel they are warranted.


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## Carol (Oct 11, 2011)

decepticon said:


> She must have been doing one of the online homeschools then. I know that many of them require a certain amount of work be done within a specific time frame. Traditional homeschooling has no arbitrary deadlines other than those set by the parents themselves. I agree with Andy, the problem seems to be one of not comprehending how to work with deadlines more than anything.
> 
> Different states have different rules regarding homeschooling, ranging from a totally hands-off approach to quite a bit of government regulation and requirements. In most states, the virtual/online school students are technically still considered to be enrolled in the public school system. In most of these schools, a specific amount of work has to be done within a certain amount of time, which is probably where this deadline came from. From all I've heard about these things, such deadlines are never given on short notice, so the father was probably mad at the kid or himself/primary home teacher for not managing their time better and meeting the deadline and took it out on you. Testing is a whole other matter, and again varies by state. Some don't require any while others do require an achievement test at the end of the year for homeschoolers.
> 
> We do traditional homeschooling, so I can determine when work is due and can allow extenuating circumstances when I feel they are warranted.



My sister (traditionally?) homeschooled my oldest niece (now serving as an MP in the Guard) and nephew (now a college grad and business owner) through grade 8.  She and my brother-in-law helped form a homeschool association in their area which had deadlines for certain assignments to be met before a  weekly parents meeting.   They are in a rural area which at the time had very spotty internet access.   Had they been doing the same thing now, I suspect they would be doing more online.  Its just another way of doing it


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## yaxomoxay (Nov 17, 2011)

Just tell them to leave, give back the money. You don't need their money and you don't need her parents around other parents and students at your school. I am just a 3rd gup, my nine year old son is a Cho Dan Bo, however I told his Sa Bon Nim to use whatever educational method he wishes, as long as he doesn't kill him or intentionally cause serious injuries to him. If he believes my education is conflicting with my education, we will sit together and we'll talk. I don't see any reason to yell at my Sa Bon Nim if he doesn't like my time management. I think her dad was the kind "I pay so I command", while martial arts should be the opposite. Unless it's something REALLY bad I don't see any reason to get mad in front of everyone else. He was just showing off.


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## kbarrett (Nov 25, 2011)

I can't honestly tell you what I would have done, because I was there, the only thing I can say is that, don't let it bother you, for the ones that act like that, there are many more how are great full.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett


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## WMKS Shogun (Nov 26, 2011)

SabumNim Rush, 
     I believe that what you did was correct. Students must be held accountable for their actions. They must be taught to have some responsibility for their triumphs and their failures. Hers was a failure in time management, and the father's was in properly handing the situation. He may be upset, but their is a proper time to express such feelings. A phone call or dropping by during 'office hours' would have better suited the conversation and allowed all parties to have a say. Anyway, best of luck with this in the future. Hopefully it is not a common occurrence though.


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