# Deflecting Hammer



## MJS (Oct 7, 2006)

Technique for discussion:

Deflecting Hammer-Right Front Kick

1. An attacker from 12 o'clock executes a right front thrust kick at your side. 

2. From a right neutral bow, push drag back to 6 o'clock as you simultaneously execute a right downward block against the outside of your attacker's kicking leg. (This block should turn your attacker's back to you and possibly hurt them as you stretch them out.) 

3. Execute a left thrusting check to their right arm (between the shoulder and biceps). As you do this, your right block (still in motion) will cock itself at your side. 

4. Shift (push drag) towards 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow strike to your attacker's face.

Thought we could discuss differences in this technique, as well as any possible counters or counter strikes our attacker can do.

For myself, I perform this technique from a neutral position, rather than the neutral bow stance.  The rest of the technique remains the same for me.

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 7, 2006)

As a visual reference point, here is Master Tatum performing this technique.

http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week5/TipOfTheWeekMedW5.html


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 7, 2006)

1) I start from a non-ready positon instead of a ready position.
2) I Block on 45 degree angle which doesn't turn the attacker much, but instead "sucks him in"
3) I use a downward riding check instead of a thrusting check so that I don't disturb the attackers momentum and let them collide full force with my elbow.  This downward check also drops their height lower which helps me because I'm short and it automatically knocks the right arm down if it were coming in as a punch.

Opponent Defense #1 - opponent uses left hand to parry the inward elbow. We can borrow that orbit, hammerfist the kidney, and buckle their right leg out for the takedown.

Opponent Defense#2 - opponent spins from the kick in an effort to deliver a left spinning backfist.  Our left check picks up the back fist while the elbow hits the back of the head.  Convert the elbow to an outward claw and latch on to the opponent's face.  Execute a stomp kick with the left foot and plant back to point of origin while pulling the opponent's left arm down with the left hand while pulling down on the haed with the right hand.  Break the opponent's arm across the right knee as we drop to a wide kneel.

Opponent Follow's up with a right hook after the kick - Check & catch the punching arm with the left hand(near the bicep) and deliver the elbow.  Execute a right buckle while allowing the left hand to slide to the opponent's wrist.  Follow up with any technique that has the opponent down and we are holding on to an arm such as Tripping Arrow or Falling Falcon.


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 7, 2006)

I like this technique. We do it from both a natural stance and a fighting stance.  We don't block per se, but more or less parry the blow, travelling from 11 to 5 to pull the attacker into the elbow strike.


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## Ping898 (Oct 7, 2006)

MJS said:


> Technique for discussion:
> 
> Deflecting Hammer-Right Front Kick
> 
> ...


 
I was taught about the same, I perform the technique from a neutral position, when initially learned, you start with your hands up, about at your chest height, as id you were trying to talk someone out of attacking you, trying to show you are no threat, and the final move instead of the elbow to the face, I was taught to do an elbow to the rib cage aiming for the floating rib if possible.


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## KenpoTex (Oct 7, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> 1) I start from a non-ready positon instead of a ready position.
> 2) I Block on 45 degree angle which doesn't turn the attacker much, but instead "sucks him in"
> 3) I use a downward riding check instead of a thrusting check so that I don't disturb the attackers momentum and let them collide full force with my elbow. This downward check also drops their height lower which helps me because I'm short and it automatically knocks the right arm down if it were coming in as a punch.


This is the way I do it as well.  I like the deflecting block (our term for this motion which is more of a parry than a block) because, as you said, it really "sucks him in" and makes him crash into that elbow strike.  

as an added bonus, after the elbow I like to step-through retreating with a lead-leg pulling sweep (right leg), do a front crossover sweep with my left leg (by now they're almost doing the splits) and then stomp down with a side kick to their extended leg.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 7, 2006)

kenpotex said:


> as an added bonus, after the elbow I like to step-through retreating with a lead-leg pulling sweep (right leg), do a front crossover sweep with my left leg (by now they're almost doing the splits) and then stomp down with a side kick to their extended leg.


 
OUCH!!!! Mean man, simply mean


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## jaybacca72 (Oct 7, 2006)

i like to graft into the back breaker from this technique,it has a nice flow to it.
later
jay


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## JamesB (Oct 7, 2006)

wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...

anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:

1. If we don't push-drag/step-drag off the center-line to 7 o'clock how do we avoid the incoming punch? 

2. If we don't execute a 'hard' block at 90 degrees to the attacker's leg and cancel his width, turning him around, how do we avoid the incoming punch?

In my experience, when the downward-block is executed along with a PAM and a slap-check, the result is so effective that the attacker is spun right around. For a comitted attack (i.e. non-compliant), this unbalances the attacker to such a degree that his forward-momentum almost makes him topple into us so there's no need to 'suck him in' with a parrying motion.

I'd also say that a push-drag puts us at a range where the downward block can be correctly structured for its maximum effectiveness. Then drag-step in with an inward elbow to the back of the head.


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 7, 2006)

JamesB said:


> wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...
> 
> anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:
> 
> ...


 

In my experience the attacker does turn and fall into the elbow strike.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 7, 2006)

JamesB said:


> wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...
> 
> anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:
> 
> ...


 
In my studies what you describe has value but is taught in another technique.  And avoiding the punch isn't hard in either case, what is your left hand doing just standing around?


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## sealth (Oct 7, 2006)

This is a very good technique.i dont think your intention should be to spin your attacker around in an attempt to disrupt his posture.having thrown an extended kick ,he or she would have already lost posture.also if you spin your attacker rather than let his kick just miss you that will be more space you"ll have to gain befor you can elbow.timing is very important.your elbow should reach its target before your attackers leg hits the ground.thats just my opinion ,good luck to all


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## hongkongfooey (Oct 7, 2006)

Welcome Sealth. You make a good point.  Many people jump off the line to get out of the way of the kick, and can't make up the space in time for the elbow strike. You also have to wonder how many people have attackers that deliberatly kick to miss their opponet, kicking past them, not at their midsection. It used to happen at my old school a lot.


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## MJS (Oct 8, 2006)

Ping898 said:


> I was taught about the same, I perform the technique from a neutral position, when initially learned, you start with your hands up, about at your chest height, as id you were trying to talk someone out of attacking you, trying to show you are no threat,


 
Yes, at my last school, we hand the hands up in the beginning as well.




> and the final move instead of the elbow to the face, I was taught to do an elbow to the rib cage aiming for the floating rib if possible.


 
That works just as well IMO.  If thats the target that available at the time, why not take advantage of it! 

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 8, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> 1) I start from a non-ready positon instead of a ready position.
> 2) I Block on 45 degree angle which doesn't turn the attacker much, but instead "sucks him in"
> 3) I use a downward riding check instead of a thrusting check so that I don't disturb the attackers momentum and let them collide full force with my elbow. This downward check also drops their height lower which helps me because I'm short and it automatically knocks the right arm down if it were coming in as a punch.
> 
> ...


 
Awesome follow-ups James!!!  I'll have to work those! :ultracool 

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 8, 2006)

JamesB said:


> wasn't this technique discussed recently in another thread? maybe it was on KT can't remember...
> 
> anyhow the descriptions so far leave me wondering:
> 
> ...


 
When I do this, the opponent is going more off to the 4-5 o'clock position, so they're really not turned completely around for me.  As for the punch, it should be picked up with the left hand.  

Mike


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## JamesB (Oct 8, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> In my studies what you describe has value but is taught in another technique. And avoiding the punch isn't hard in either case, what is your left hand doing just standing around?


 


			
				MJS said:
			
		

> When I do this, the opponent is going more off to the 4-5 o'clock position, so they're really not turned completely around for me. As for the punch, it should be picked up with the left hand.



so are you guys teaching a specific parry/block with the left hand in anticipation of the attacker's punch?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 8, 2006)

JamesB said:


> so are you guys teaching a specific parry/block with the left hand in anticipation of the attacker's punch?


 
No, the left hand is high guarding the head and if another attack is perceived it is responded to.  In other words the left hand is placed in a preparatory cock for a block or parry.


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## MJS (Oct 9, 2006)

JamesB said:


> so are you guys teaching a specific parry/block with the left hand in anticipation of the attacker's punch?


 
James pretty much summed it up.   When you're doing this tech. how do you have your hands positioned?  Just trying to get a better feel for the variations out there. 

Mike


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## JamesB (Oct 9, 2006)

MJS said:


> James pretty much summed it up.  When you're doing this tech. how do you have your hands positioned? Just trying to get a better feel for the variations out there.
> 
> Mike


 
ok here's what I've been taught, hopefully my description is accurate enough:

I do this technique from 'neutral'. The arms are raised high to frame the attack. The lead (right) arm in particular is chambered high in preparation for the downward-block.

As the kick comes in, I push-drag off center-line. As the right foot plants with a PAM, I simultaneously execute the right downward-block along the 9-3 line, along with a left 'slap-check' to the right shoulder. So at that point in time, my left hand is specifically placed onto the top of the right shoulder, bracing my upper body and providing stablity to the blocking arm. I'm in a right-neutral-bow still (but now positioned off the line of attack). Should the attacker be punching also, this placement of the left hand allows it to be easily brought up into a parry/check position. 

I'm not expecting to have the need to deal with any punch though - firstly because I've moved off center line, but also because the attacker will be spun round further: the specific angle the block takes (perpendicular to the attack), along with the 'slap-check' and 'PAM' makes this possible. So he'll find it really difficult to make any kind of effective punch at me.

I'm still having difficulty seeing how push-dragging back along the 12-6 line is going to do you any favours: The kick is still coming straight at you, right? When the blocking arm makes contact with the attacker's leg, it will strike the top of the leg because your arm will need to be across your own center-line in order to catch the leg. The amount of force that is available to block the leg sideways is limited because the blocking arm is not (in my mind) ideally placed in this position. Because you are striking the top of the leg, I see you redirecting the stronger kicks into your hip area. ouch.

I would say, a downward-block is most effective when it has completed it's 'full travel' and is extended out to your side. By trying to 'downward block' at one's center-line instead of at the side, the blocking arm has barely begun it's movement. Doesn't seem very strong to me.... The parrying motion that has been described so far would also have less of an effect on the attacker. As he's 'pulled in' to you, would this not aid his punching potential rather than take it away? his width has not been cancelled...

I'm sticking to my guns: Move off-center, cancel his width, take away his weapons. All good kenpo principles. By not doing this, one would always have to deal with the potential incoming punch. Sure, you can do it, but the technique becomes much more risky for a beginner. Give people something simple and effective at first, and play around with variations and 'parrying blocks' (yuck) after they have a firm grasp of the basics.

just my opinion of course..


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 9, 2006)

JamesB said:


> ok here's what I've been taught, hopefully my description is accurate enough:
> 
> I do this technique from 'neutral'. The arms are raised high to frame the attack. The lead (right) arm in particular is chambered high in preparation for the downward-block.
> 
> ...


 
Opinion noted.  The way it's done in other circles (call it motion kenpo if you will by your terminology) uses the push drag to aid the block in causing a minor deflection instead of major deflection.  Back-up mass powering the block in the reverse direction.  The major deflection along the 9-3 line doesn't allow the block to automatically recock the weapon which is a fundamental concept of the motion interpretation.  Blocking along the 11-5 line or 10-4 line automatically pulls the elbow back and cocked for the next move while clearing the hip and side as well.  That's the main point to this technique in the "motion interpretation".  A major redirection is not wanted in this technique as this technique is introducing the concept of disrupting the opponent's balance by elongating his base.  Up to this point on the yellow belt chart that hasn't be done yet.  We're also borrowing the attackers forward momentum and letting them run into the elbow.  This extra force is lost if a major deflection block is used as the attackers momentum is sent on a line that no longer runs parrallel with our line of force.  The opponent is not spun because the technique is teaching how to access the frontal centerline which is a recurring theme in the motion Yellow Belt Chart as every technique on that chart makes the frontal centerline available (Even Grasp of Death or The Pincher depending on what line you learned it from).  Then on Orange the rear centerline begins being accessed.  The attackers follow up punch would be braced off of one leg which isn't terribly powerful (no base, PAM, BAM or Bracing Angle present) and that's what the left hand is there to address if needed and quite easily as well with another minor deflection (parry) or major deflection (block) depending on the desired positioning.  The major deflection block you speak of is done on Orange in Buckling Branch and uses a long range kick to account for the increased distance/depth caused by spinning the opponent away instead of spinning the opponent outside of contact penetration range when they were already there and then shuffling back into that same range we just negated.  Also spinning the attcker unloads the right hand but loads the left for spinning backfists, kicks, etc which have far more impact potential than a lead right after a kick (but also needs a slightly longer time to execute).  Pros and Cons to everything.

Short version. Stick to your guns as it works that way with pros and cons.  But the "other" way works as well with it's own pros and cons.  You like To-MaY-Toes I like To-MaH-Toes.  Sam Ting.


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## michaeledward (Oct 9, 2006)

I'm with Mr. Hawkins, and his post. There is much useful information in that post. 

The one thing I will add is that we learn a prescribed response to a prescribed attack, especially at the early belt stages. The prescribed attack for Deflecting Hammer is a Right Leg Thrust Kick directed at the belt buckle. The prescription does not include the follow up punch. We get the more sophisticated attack at the more advanced levels, don't we ... Dance of Death, for instance. At the initial stages of training, it is just a single weapon attack.

Mike


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## JamesB (Oct 9, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> The major deflection along the 9-3 line doesn't allow the block to automatically recock the weapon which is a fundamental concept of the motion interpretation. Blocking along the 11-5 line or 10-4 line automatically pulls the elbow back and cocked for the next move while clearing the hip and side as well. That's the main point to this technique in the "motion interpretation".


 
I can see the logic behind the 'parrying' block now - thanks for explaining that point. I would certainly say that the way I perform this technique would be less fluid, as I require extra movement of the right arm to re-chamber for the follow-up elbow. My technique would also have different timing as I need to actively close the gap for the inward-elbow rather than having the elbow work straight off the block.



Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> A major redirection is not wanted in this technique as this technique is introducing the concept of disrupting the opponent's balance by elongating his base. Up to this point on the yellow belt chart that hasn't be done yet. We're also borrowing the attackers forward momentum and letting them run into the elbow. This extra force is lost if a major deflection block is used as the attackers momentum is sent on a line that no longer runs parrallel with our line of force.


 
differing philosophies understood and appreciated - nice explanation - thanks!



Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> The opponent is not spun because the technique is teaching how to access the frontal centerline which is a recurring theme in the motion Yellow Belt Chart as every technique on that chart makes the frontal centerline available (Even Grasp of Death or The Pincher dependingo nwhat line you learned it from). Then on Orange the rear centerline begins being accessed.


 
I don't quite follow what you mean by 'accessing the centerline'. Are you referring to your own center-line, or the attacker's, or both? I think if you are talking about your own centerline, you are referring to the blocking motion of the arm as it crosses your centerline, in order to protect oneself, right?



Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Short version. Stick to your guns as it works that way with pros and cons. But the "other" way works as well with it's own pros and cons. You like To-MaY-Toes I like To-MaH-Toes. Sam Ting.


 
thanks for your insights, I can understand the 'other way' a lot better now. Pros+cons of each method noted also


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 9, 2006)

JamesB said:


> I don't quite follow what you mean by 'accessing the centerline'. Are you referring to your own center-line, or the attacker's, or both? I think if you are talking about your own centerline, you are referring to the blocking motion of the arm as it crosses your centerline, in order to protect oneself, right?


 
I should have posted attacking the attacker's front centerline.  In other words we try to open up the chest and face area as targets.  The techniques constantly turn the attacker in a way that the face-chest-groin line is exposed to hands and/or feet.

Grasp of Death is the only "exception" in that we close the front centerline to our hands but the opponent is placed in face down position to open the centerline for kicks and knees that aren't used until Orange such as in Crossing Talon and Lcoked Wing.


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## HKphooey (Oct 9, 2006)

A nice left hammer fist (inward block) to the scapula does wonders!    And if the person comes in faster it ends up at the base of the neck/top of spine.  Crank the downward block and the hammerfist at the same.  Nice damage.  As shuffle comes up right knee into the back of the attacker's hamstring to check/keep opponent turned (and do a little dammage).


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2006)

JamesB said:


> As the kick comes in, I push-drag off center-line. As the right foot plants with a PAM, I simultaneously execute the right downward-block along the 9-3 line, along with a left 'slap-check' to the right shoulder. So at that point in time, my left hand is specifically placed onto the top of the right shoulder, bracing my upper body and providing stablity to the blocking arm. I'm in a right-neutral-bow still (but now positioned off the line of attack). Should the attacker be punching also, this placement of the left hand allows it to be easily brought up into a parry/check position.


 
I'm guessing that this slap check is used to cancel the punch?  If thats the case, I picture the punch coming as the opponents foot is landing, ie:marriage with gravity.  Will there still be time to do that slap check if the opponent is punching as he lands?  As for the block, I do it as James stated, on the 11/5 or 10/4 line.  9/3, I would think would be used when doing buckling branch, to aid in turning the person, rather than just putting them on an angle.




> I'm still having difficulty seeing how push-dragging back along the 12-6 line is going to do you any favours: The kick is still coming straight at you, right? When the blocking arm makes contact with the attacker's leg, it will strike the top of the leg because your arm will need to be across your own center-line in order to catch the leg. The amount of force that is available to block the leg sideways is limited because the blocking arm is not (in my mind) ideally placed in this position. Because you are striking the top of the leg, I see you redirecting the stronger kicks into your hip area. ouch.


 
My appologies for not being clear in my original description.  Because I start this tech. from a neutral position, I step back to 7, not 6.  This is putting me at a better angle.




> I'm sticking to my guns: Move off-center, cancel his width, take away his weapons. All good kenpo principles. By not doing this, one would always have to deal with the potential incoming punch. Sure, you can do it, but the technique becomes much more risky for a beginner. Give people something simple and effective at first, and play around with variations and 'parrying blocks' (yuck) after they have a firm grasp of the basics.
> 
> just my opinion of course..


 
Thanks for the breakdown on how you perform this technique.  Again, its always good to hear other viewpoints. 

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 10, 2006)

MJS said:


> I'm guessing that this slap check is used to cancel the punch? If thats the case, I picture the punch coming as the opponents foot is landing, ie:marriage with gravity. Will there still be time to do that slap check if the opponent is punching as he lands?.....Mike


 
No. The slap Check is BAM or *B*ody *A*lignment *M*echanism as taught by 'Doc' Chapel.  In JamesB's description the slap-check is done to our own right shoulder to stabilize the upper body for the impact of the block.


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> No. The slap Check is BAM or *B*ody *A*lignment *M*echanism as taught by 'Doc' Chapel. In JamesB's description the slap-check is done to our own right shoulder to stabilize the upper body for the impact of the block.


 
Duh!!  Now that I go back and re-read, yes, I see what you're saying.

See what happens when you don't read something carefully!! LOL!


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## teej (Oct 10, 2006)

If you catch or check at the bicep of a right hook punch, wouldn't the elbow hinge and the right punch hit you? 

If you are on the inside of a punch you should check below the elbow if you are using only one hand to block or check. [Think of that right hook having a knife or short club in the hand.]

Teej


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## michaeledward (Oct 10, 2006)

teej said:


> If you catch or check at the bicep of a right hook punch, wouldn't the elbow hinge and the right punch hit you?
> 
> If you are on the inside of a punch you should check below the elbow if you are using only one hand to block or check. [Think of that right hook having a knife or short club in the hand.]
> 
> Teej


 

In the ideal phase of this technique, there is no punch. 

But, even assuming a 'what if' for this technique, the punch would likely be on a linear trajectory, rather than a circular trajectory. 

Your right hand is low, having blocked the leg, your left hand is high and would execute a block on the outside of the incoming punch - if the punch were there.

Further, assuming the attacker was executing a thrust kick and a hook / roundhouse punch (the range variance in this combination makes it very unrealistic, don't you think? - kick long range; hook punch short range). By using the diagonal block/frictional pull, the attacker would probably end up aborting the punch, and attempt to turn it into a grab, hold or hug. (He is after all, going to be falling foward, into you). If you were inside a right hook that evovled into a grab or hug your high left would be able to check the weapon and the impact of your right inward elbow would be even more devestating, I think. 

Again, in the ideal phase of this technique, there is no right punch, and we are defending from the outside of his right.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 10, 2006)

michaeledward said:


> In the ideal phase of this technique, there is no punch.
> 
> But, even assuming a 'what if' for this technique, the punch would likely be on a linear trajectory, rather than a circular trajectory.
> 
> ...


 
*In a word, No.*  the kick (long range) to close the distance followed by the haymaker (short range) is very popular with the "MMA crowd" and has been around for years.  Some call it "kicking in the door before smashing the guy behind it".  Quite realistic (I've actually knocked a few silly with it myself). This part is hitting the nail on the head however as that's the intention in that what if.  Take the slack off the punch due to the opponent's poor positioning and then drop the sucker.

To the poster that said the block should be below the forearm....you are right if you are just blocking.  Catching the bicep instead is applicable for checking, grabbing or _*jamming*_ the arm which is what would be done here to keep the opponent's upper carriage leaning back and facilitate an easier takedown.  Also at that range trying to block below the elbow may well put your block behind you depending on the comparative speed of your shuffle.


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