# Compulsory Schooling - Necessity or Waste?



## Makalakumu (Feb 5, 2010)

I wanted to throw up a poll to take an informal survey of the MT community.  How do you feel about the concept of forcing someone to go to school?  Compulsory schooling laws do just that.  They force parents to send their children to school until they reach 16 or 18 years old depending on the state.  Is this something our society needs to do?


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## Makalakumu (Feb 5, 2010)

LOL, maybe I should have stayed in school longer so I could spell Compulsory correctly.  Could a Mod kindly correct that for me?


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## Stac3y (Feb 5, 2010)

No comment.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 5, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I wanted to throw up a poll to take an informal survey of the MT community.  How do you feel about the concept of forcing someone to go to school?  Compulsory schooling laws do just that.  They force parents to send their children to school until they reach 16 or 18 years old depending on the state.  Is this something our society needs to do?



No, by all means keep the children ignorant and unschooled.
It'll prepare them better for when the US turns into a 3d world country where they don't need advanced skills or knowledge.

The rest of the modern world meanwhile will make sure their population is educated enough to keep the economy going.
The wooshing sound you hear is the rest of the world passing by the US.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 5, 2010)

Schooling is an absolute necessity. Private schooled, public schooled, home schooled, or whatever, we need to learn many basic skills that will help us get through life.

We dont live in a society where being uneducated is an option. There are no more high paying, unskilled jobs available to the uneducated. Gone are the days were you could get by without knowing how to read or write and still raise a family. 

Not educating your children, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.


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## cdunn (Feb 5, 2010)

Either wisely, or unwisely, our Western society, at its very pins is a democratic one. Our communities and governments are built around the principle of group consensus. Our interpersonal relationships are built around informed consent. Everything is based around the ability of the individual to make informed decisions for himself. And the education is the key to the manner in which those decisions get made. 

We must be educated in logic, in the fundamentals of ethics, and in the scientific method. We must learn to sort through sources, and discover those with conflicts of interest. In short, we must be taught to learn, and to apply that learning. For without this, we are more and more likely to inflict catastrophic harm to ourselves and to our society. 

It is unfortunate that the modern school system unflinchingly fails in this task, but to take it away from the state is in error, for while the state can, and should, represent the interests of the people as a whole, well, Joe said it best:



			
				Joseph Stalin said:
			
		

> Education is a weapon whose effects depend on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 5, 2010)

A few good reasons: 



> Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government." -Thomas Jefferson
> 
> "If the children . . . are untaught, their ignorance and vices will in future life cost us much dearer in their consequences, than it would have done, in their correction, by a good education."  -Thomas Jefferson
> 
> "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be." - Thomas Jefferson


 
...I like Thomas Jefferson. LOL

But here are some more modern quotes that say it better than I could..



> Public education is the key civil rights issue of the 21st century. Our nation's knowledge-based economy demands that we provide young people from all backgrounds and circumstances with the education and skills necessary to become knowledge workers. If we don't, we run the risk of creating an even larger gap between the middle class and the poor. This gap threatens our democracy, our society and the economic future of America. -Eli Broad
> 
> Let us think of education as the means of developing our greatest abilities, because in each of us there is a private hope and dream which, fulfilled, can be translated into benefit for everyone and greater strength for our nation. - J.F.K.
> 
> Education is both a tool of social justice as well as a fundamental driver of economic development. -Kevin Rudd


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## Darksoul (Feb 5, 2010)

-Humans need to be educated; they shouldn't be left on their own. As far as I can tell, every culture and society throughout the ages has had some form of education/training, regardless of the subject. Some places, it may have only been to train as a soldier, to learn how to fight, cause that was the order of the day. In the United States, I would like to see a balance of Federal and State standards for education, maybe with some local standards thrown in. I believe more emphasis should be put towards trade schools than the traditional college/university route.

Andrew


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## Nomad (Feb 5, 2010)

Ignorance has caused and continues to cause way more problems in the world than a solid education ever has.  

Unfortunately, with slashed budgets, bigger classrooms and underpaid teachers forced to teach strictly from mandated safe course material, the bar for what's considered a minimal standard of education keeps dropping.

The system needs a serious overhaul, but an education through high school should absolutely be required, in my opinion.


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## Blade96 (Feb 5, 2010)

i dont mind compulsory schooling - as long as they arent schools like the hell holes i went to. 

In my opinion if the gov forces a child to attend a school like that THAT would be child abuse.


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## chaos1551 (Feb 5, 2010)

Has anyone here seen that movie 'Idiocracy'?  

"Welcome to Costco, I love you..."


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## Makalakumu (Feb 6, 2010)

Well, it looks like I'm the only one who has voted no.  Here's why.  As a long time public school teacher, private school teacher, and reformer I am beginning to really understand the power of choice in education.  When we force students to go to schools, especially to failing schools or schools that teach material that goes against our core beliefs (whatever that may be) we are ultimately not as effective as we could be.  

The idea of compulsory schooling laws, as we know them, was conceived in Prussia in Napoleonic times.  Their design was to take the children away from the family and engineer them for the state.  This kind of management was popularized in this country starting around 1840 and really didn't get into full swing until the early 1900s.  It was during this time that the various elite visions of Utopia were thrust upon the people the schools began to be used as tools for propaganda.  Teachers became social managers and education, rather then drawing out what was inside, became a process of putting in what was desired.

After learning about this, I now see a world in which the state supports education in a passive way.  I see parents and students choosing schools that fit their learning needs and desires and the government giving large grants for tuition.  I see the grants being available to adults choosing to better themselves at any time in their lives.  

Ultimately, I see a society in which their is no need to force people to go to school because people can find options to learn what they want to learn.  Compulsory schooling was designed for social engineering, not education.  Real education comes from within, from the individual.  The word education means to draw out.  You can't use force to cram things in and expect that people will truly and honestly become educated.


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## Carol (Feb 6, 2010)

As the aunt of two children that were home-schooled through grade 8, and four children that are currently in a charter school, I agree with you on educational choice, which I think is positive.  I can't forsee that coming to fruition through elimianting compulsory schooling, which I don't think is positive.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 6, 2010)

Carol said:


> As the aunt of two children that were home-schooled through grade 8, and four children that are currently in a charter school, I agree with you on educational choice, which I think is positive.  I can't forsee that coming to fruition through eliminting compulsory schooling, which I don't think is positive.



I wise man one said that looking from the inside out, it often seems like there is nothing else but the fishbowl.  That said, I think that as soon as we discover that their is a fishbowl, we can start to see how we all can climb out of it.  It starts with education and with teaching people that they have the power and ability to choose for themselves.  If we really want to unlock our creative potential as a nation, we need to take the fetters off.  We need to get out of this fishbowl.  

Another thing is that I don't think people are going to stand for what they are getting and what they are paying for much longer.  We are already getting educational choice as more and more people refuse to participate.  And no matter how many drugs, how many labels, and how many sanctions we apply, it just goes on from there.  In a way compulsory schooling is a way of denying the simple reality of what we experience in our daily life.

I know that I just stuck my sword into a sacred cow when I voted against compulsory schooling, but just consider for a moment what would happen if everyone could simply choose how they wanted to be educated, society supported them in that decision, and if there was no need to force people into a school?  

Imagine sitting in a class where you and everyone else wants to be there and the teacher wants to teach you and everyone else.  Perhaps compulsory schooling takes that away from us...


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 6, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> It starts with education and with teaching people that they have the power and ability to choose for themselves.  If we really want to unlock our creative potential as a nation, we need to take the fetters off.  We need to get out of this fishbowl.
> 
> I know that I just stuck my sword into a sacred cow when I voted against compulsory schooling, but just consider for a moment what would happen if everyone could simply choose how they wanted to be educated, society supported them in that decision, and if there was no need to force people into a school?
> ...



This doesn't make sense. You can already choose how you are schooled. What does removing compulsory schooling add? It seems as if you think that by removing the obligation to get an education, people will suddenly rise above themselves and get utterly motivated to learn. This is as realistic as expecting communism to be a successful economic model if you don't force the people to follow the rules.

Maybe you would only have motivated students left, but only because the rest drops out voluntarily or because they need to go to the factories at a young age.
Removing compulsory schooling will rapidly turn the US into a 3d world country, literacy will drop sharply, and you lose whatever knowledge industry you have left.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 6, 2010)

It is up to the state, by which I mean the state in which one lives, not the 'state' as in the federal government.  State's rights.

Public education is incredibly important in my opinion, and one of the facets of a functioning free society.  Take away education, and as Jefferson said, freedom will not last long after.  However, whether or not I strongly believe in it, it is a matter for each state to decide if education should be compulsory, and for how long students must attend.  I would not be in favor of the current system we have, wherein the federal government collects and disperses education funds to the states, and threatens to withhold them if the states do not do as the federal government says.

And the world will always need ditch-diggers.  If a person does not wish to become educated, so mote it be.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 6, 2010)

Additional note:  As always, one must be careful when jumping the chasm between something being a very good idea and the government therefore having the right to mandate it.  Lots of things are good ideas, should the government require them therefore?  People not engaging in all sorts of risky behaviors that are currently legal would be a good idea - does the government therefore have the mandate to put a stop to those behaviors?

So there are always two questions.  First, is it a good idea, and second, does the government have the right to impose it as a law?


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 6, 2010)

You already said yourself that the only way for society to remain free is to be educated. And I agree.
Now, if government mandates educationthere is no downside.

1) either the population would already do that itself, and this government stipulation is without effect
2) the population is not inclided to do this itself, and the government stipulation makes sure they do, thereby keeping the population free.

Historically, these laws were created not to -force- kids to get an education, but to make it possible. because just like in other countries, the elite and factory owners would rather have an ignorant population. By mandating that everyone get some sort of education, government made it impossible for lazy / uncaring parents to neglect their kids' education, or for the 'movers and shakers' to end up in a status quo where children can't get an education.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 6, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> You already said yourself that the only way for society to remain free is to be educated. And I agree.
> Now, if government mandates educationthere is no downside.



Depending whether the government in question is the state or the federal government.

The states have the right to compel public education.

The federal government does not.

If the federal government compels education, then there is a downside - the damage it does to the Constitution.  They haven't the right.  To usurp power that rightfully belongs to the states because it serves a public good is not a good enough reason.

This is a common logical break in political understanding.  If one can see a clear benefit in mandatory education, then one jumps to the conclusion that therefore it ought to be done.  

If that were true, then the federal government could mandate no smoking, no meat-eating, and no being fat.  All these things serve a public good - so of course the federal government should have the power to enforce them?  No.

I realize that it sounds counter-intuitive to say that yes, public education is good, but no, the federal government ought not require it.  But it's logical if you think about it.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 6, 2010)

I think the key to understanding my position is to understand that I am not against public support of education.  I believe that society should make education one of its core priorities.  I would like to see large grants to families so that children could receive any education they desire.  I don't think that children and families should be forced to go to a particular school.  They should choose what is best for them and society should respect that decision.

The problem with compulsory schooling, in my opinion, is that it is a tool to force children into a particular type of schooling.  Aside from the fact that this education is of poor quality (in the US) by nearly all measures, it now is being organized so that the state will determine everything that you learn, including history.  This is a key point, because this is what woke me up to what this all meant.  When government mandates the history that is taught and tests it with high stakes tests that determine whether or not you get a diploma, they have come out into the open and shown their hand.  It's propaganda.  In the US, our No Child Left Behind Laws mandated tests in all subjects including history and science, which will begin rolling out starting next year.

Just think about that for a moment and it suddenly dawns that we are amidst a quiet, creeping, incremental coup.  Compulsory schooling is the major tool for this coup.  A small group of elite now has the power to train everyone what to believe according to their desires.  John D. Rockefeller, a man who started one of the leading foundations supporting compulsory schooling around the world said this...

 "In our dreams, people yield themselves with perfect docility to our molding hands. The present educational conventions [intellectual and character education] fade from our minds, and unhampered by tradition, we work our own good will upon a grateful and responsive folk. We shall not try to make these people or any of their children into philosophers or men of learning or men of science. We have not to raise up from among them authors, educators, poets or men of letters. We shall not search for embryo great artists, painters, musicians, nor lawyers, doctors, preachers, politicians, statesmen, of whom we have ample supply. The task we set before ourselves is very simple...we will organize children...and teach them to do in a perfect way the things their fathers and mothers are doing in an imperfect way."

In US and across the world, the major foundations control the federal and state level Departments of Education, the major graduate schools of education, and the major publishers of textbooks.  Have you ever wondered why your school day was structured the way it was?  It was because these Foundations structured a new model of schooling that was being tested in the early 1900s.  
 
In 1918, Alexander Inglis, an emeritus professor at Harvard, who now has a lectern named after him, wrote a book called Principles of Secondary Education.  This book is an example of writings from that time period and represents the zeitgeist that was the genesis of our modern schooling institution.

According to Inglis, the system was designed with six functions in mind: 
1) The adaptive function (schools are to establish fixed habits of reaction to authority the bells, the trivial rules, and rewards and punishments are nothing more then a Pavlovian training method designed to accustom students to a life of top down instruction).

2) The integrating function (this might well be called "the conformity function," because its intention is to make children as alike as possible.  Standardized testing is the epitome of this function.  Every unit will be strictly controlled for quality like a McDonalds cheeseburger).

3) The diagnostic and directive function (school is meant to determine each student's proper social role.  The numbers and letters that we assign to bits of knowledge and acts of behavior are to be used to determine a students future despite the assumptions that went into their assignation).

4) The differentiating function (once their social role has been "diagnosed," children are to be sorted by role and trained only so far as their destination in the social machine merits - and not one step further.  Development of the mind beyond that which is required for basic instruction in social roles is not only waste of resources, it is dangerous for social order).

5) The selective function (schools are meant to tag students with poor grades, remedial placement, and other diagnoses in order to identify the unfit for further intervention.  This is a eugenics program as defined by Sir Francis Galton, the father of eugenics and whose ideas spawned a program that was funded in the United States by John D. Rockefeller.  We used to direct these tagged individuals into forced sterilization programs, now we cram them full of pharmaceuticals and deny them opportunities for social advancement.

6) The _propaedeutic _function (the societal system implied by these rules will require an elite group of caretakers.  School trains students for managers.  The etymology of the word pedagogy comes from the Greek word _paidagogos_, who were a class of slaves whose responsibility it was to guide students through the lessons of the masters.  Students will learn fixed habits of reaction to authority, how to shift from one person giving instruction to another, and how to obey without question and without the weight of troubling ethics).

When these schools were first rolled out along these lines, many immigrants from Europe rioted in the streets at having to face the prospect of having their children forced into these institutions.  They made statements to the papers of the time that they had come to America in order to escape this sort of thing.  The history of compulsory schooling is not something that many people know about.

It is something to consider as we move forward to the future.


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## Blade96 (Feb 6, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Well, it looks like I'm the only one who has voted no. Here's why. As a long time public school teacher, private school teacher, and reformer I am beginning to really understand the power of choice in education. When we force students to go to schools, especially to failing schools or schools that teach material that goes against our core beliefs (whatever that may be) we are ultimately not as effective as we could be.


 
You know, I can agree with this. who, for example, would want to put their children into a creationist classroom for example when they do not teach the truth? that evolution is the closest theory we have. 

Or, for example, in Stalin's soviet union, for example, they taught Lysenkoism, instead of Mendel's version (Lysenkoism held that there isnt a such thing as genes and that you can acquire characterististics which can then be inherited. It was more for the social engineering of society than it was about teaching real science.) 



			
				maunakumu said:
			
		

> The idea of compulsory schooling laws, as we know them, was conceived in Prussia in Napoleonic times. Their design was to take the children away from the family and engineer them for the state. This kind of management was popularized in this country starting around 1840 and really didn't get into full swing until the early 1900s. It was during this time that the various elite visions of Utopia were thrust upon the people the schools began to be used as tools for propaganda. Teachers became social managers and education, rather then drawing out what was inside, became a process of putting in what was desired.


 
I can agree, and governments still use education as propaganda for the masses. At the risk of offending someone, sometimes this is still used in America. For example, We Canadians spend sometimes defining just what being 'Canadian' means. Americans, wouldnt necessarily do this; they 'know' what it means to be an American through education put to them by their govs and states.



			
				maunakumu said:
			
		

> Ultimately, I see a society in which their is no need to force people to go to school because people can find options to learn what they want to learn. Compulsory schooling was designed for social engineering, not education. Real education comes from within, from the individual. The word education means to draw out. You can't use force to cram things in and expect that people will truly and honestly become educated.


 
I think what needs to be done is not abolish compulsory education laws, but come to the fact that sometimes its how we educate people that needs to be changed. and not this law.


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## sandanbob (Feb 12, 2010)

This is a topic that I believe is difficult to discuss in short comments, due to its complexity.  Having said that, I am going to share a few.

First, I agree that the federal government (USA) does not have constitutional authority over education- as I was taught, any authority not expressly delegated to the federal government was retained by the states.  However, there are many areas in which the federal government has overstepped its bounds, this is only one.

Next- it is also true that our current public education system is based on that of Prussia- that's where the term "kindergarden" comes from.  

Third- I do believe in education.  However, I do have doubts concerning the state of public education in our country.  My wife and I are planning on homeschooling our children (we have one, so far, who is 13 months old.)  

My wife worked as a teacher, including teaching an 8th grade science class.  The principal in her school told the student body that there grades in 8th grade didn't matter, and they didn't need to try, since it wasn't until high school that grades counted.  I could not believe it when my wife told me this.  If students are not expected to do well in one grade, how will that help them excell in the future?  (I told her that she was NOT to return to that school, because of this, and because she was not allowed to give true grades for those who failed.)  Anyway, that is only one example of the failure of our school system- I suspect other members of this forum could come up with a myriad.

In the case of my wife and I, we feel confident that we can give our children a well rouned education- not just in 'school subjects', but in life.  She has a bachelors degree in geology, masters in geophysics, and bachelors in elementary education and I have a bachelors in mechanical engineering.  Add that to our interests/hobbies, such as gardening, woodworking, hiking/biking/canoeing/kayaking, SCUBA diving, martial arts, literature, computers, Ham radio, history... I am also active in ommunity service (volunteered for town boards) and Lion's Club.  We are strong believers in taking responsibility for our actions, and will expect our children to do so, and suffer any consequences, as well as reap any rewards.

Anyway... just sharing some thoughts, in a somewhat random manner.

In summary- I do not believe our current system in America is ideal, or even very good.  Some students do well, and rise above their education, but probably that is the minority.  Can we do better?  Yes.  How to do so?  I don't feel qualified to deal in the finer details, but would be willing to work with people on a local and state level to do so.

Thanks.

Bob


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2010)

I voted until the child reaches 16..I thankfully was able to quit school at 17 because I really wasn't learning anything except how to judge someone on their looks, dress, mannerisms, and that it was OK for the more popular students ( jocks) to get away with threating those of us that were not aggressive..When I felt the need and desire to learn, I took courses at the local community college...


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## Blade96 (Feb 12, 2010)

i quit school at 16 and in just grade 10 for reasons I've already stated in the thread on bullying. I wasnt learning anything except what you said, drac, and how to hate and fear.

Now I have a univ degree though and am almost yellow belt in shotokan. (my senseis want a grading for us before the end of feb.) and gold medalist in shotokan too.

i still think no need to get rid of compulsory laws, its the schooling system itself that needs to change. the law is fine.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2010)

The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO.  Can we force someone to learn?  Should we try to force someone to learn?


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 12, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?


 
You can never force anyone to learn anything. I don't think thats quite what you meant to say, our school systems are not set up in that way at all. You must attend school, but no one can force you to learn anything you chose not to learn.

Children and people in general are basically lazy, we all want the easy way to get some where. Children do not have the maturity to see the value in education when they are young, hence why we make them go.

The main problem with education, not counting bad teachers/admin is all too many parents think that it is the schools responsibilty to educate their children, it is and it isn't. Parents are the biggest eduucators and influences on their children lives. 

Treat your children with respect, buy them good foods before you buy your beer, make sure they have warm clothes, read to them, take an interest in their schooling and lives. Praise them. Show your child that their education matters to you and is important, and you'll see them generally do well in school.


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Schooling is an absolute necessity. Private schooled, public schooled, home schooled, or whatever, we need to learn many basic skills that will help us get through life.
> 
> We dont live in a society where being uneducated is an option. There are no more high paying, unskilled jobs available to the uneducated. Gone are the days were you could get by without knowing how to read or write and still raise a family.
> 
> Not educating your children, in my opinion, is a form of child abuse.


 
I agree with this.  IMO, some sort of schooling, such as you listed, needs to be done.  College is one thing, as its not for everyone, however, seems nowadays, a college degree is almost a requirement on many jobs, although there are jobs that dont require them.  But HS..yes, a HS diploma is needed.


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?


 
I'm of the thought that if you force someone to do something, they're not going to give it 100%.  That being said, I used to ***** about going to school, just like I ***** about going to work everyday.....who doesn't? LOL.  

It should be explained that a HS diploma or GED is important, and unless they want to accept a life of min. wage jobs, and a rough road in the future, they should at least put forth the effort to get that much.  Then again, people are forced to do things all the time, so why not just suck it up, and deal with it for 12yrs.  If thats as far as they want to go, fine, but at least they have that much.


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO. Can we force someone to learn? Should we try to force someone to learn?


 
One of the last conversations I had with the guidance counselor when my grades were bad I got the old " just keep on trying your best" scriped speech..I asked would she give me a straight answer and she said she would.."Do you pass people for trying?" and her answer was "No"..I quit a few days later...


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## Gordon Nore (Feb 12, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> The following questions captures the heart of the matter, IMO.  Can we force someone to learn?  Should we try to force someone to learn?



I think that question focuses your opening post: We can make education mandatory. We can't make learning mandatory. Nobody ever learned anything they didn't want to.

My vote FWIW is for status quo in my province -- compulsory school attendance up until age sixteen. I really should use the phrase "school registration" rather than "attendance" because, at a some point, it's very hard to compel a child to attend school.

Why? As Bill and others have suggested, there far fewer opportunities for people with less than a high school diploma. Traditional jobs that rewarded loyalty and sheer bull work  with a good wage and a pension don't exist. My grandfather, like many of his generation, had an elementary education and a great willingness to work hard, so he prospered on the railroad. That time has past us.

Realistically, all workers should be prepared to educate and train throughout their careers, thus a foundation in learning, as well as learning how to learn, is very important.

Now, most of the discussion here has been about schools and their function to prepare people for work. Ideally schools should stimulate people's curiosity, so that they are both interesting and interested.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> You can never force anyone to learn anything. I don't think thats quite what you meant to say, our school systems are not set up in that way at all. You must attend school, but no one can force you to learn anything you chose not to learn.



You can force children to learn something, but it isn't what you think. Our system IS set up to force people to learn.  If you look at the way students are sanctioned, evaluated, and ostracized, it is a system that is clearly designed to force people to learn.  We've taken a step back from physical punishment, but the mental and emotional sanctions instituted by the system are more then enough to some degree of socialization.  Content is always secondary to this.  The socialization process is what people are really evaluated on.  Compliance is what gets people ahead, not what people actually learn.



Ken Morgan said:


> Children and people in general are basically lazy, we all want the easy way to get some where. Children do not have the maturity to see the value in education when they are young, hence why we make them go.



I've found that all children really do want to learn and that they all have boundless energy and creativity.  We teach them not to think and to be lazy in school.  



Ken Morgan said:


> The main problem with education, not counting bad teachers/admin is all too many parents think that it is the schools responsibilty to educate their children, it is and it isn't. Parents are the biggest eduucators and influences on their children lives.
> 
> Treat your children with respect, buy them good foods before you buy your beer, make sure they have warm clothes, read to them, take an interest in their schooling and lives. Praise them. Show your child that their education matters to you and is important, and you'll see them generally do well in school.



Yes.  Show your children to learn for its own sake, not to please anyone or to get something in return.  Show your children how to learn something with everything they do.


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2010)

If I had been allowed to attend school with being the target of bullies I might have prospered there...I remember getting a test back and the teacher wrote " You flunked another one stupid" on it in red pencil...Oh yeah, that made me wanna come back...


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> I think that question focuses your opening post: We can make education mandatory. We can't make learning mandatory. Nobody ever learned anything they didn't want to.
> 
> My vote FWIW is for status quo in my province -- compulsory school attendance up until age sixteen. I really should use the phrase "school registration" rather than "attendance" because, at a some point, it's very hard to compel a child to attend school.
> 
> ...



Why are you and others assuming the children/adults won't take responsibility for their own education?  I am personally ready to just trust people to take care of it and that we as a society just need to make sure that people have as many venues to do that as possible.  Having worked in a public and private school, I can honestly say that the choice of attending or not makes the biggest difference when it comes to internal motivation.


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## Drac (Feb 12, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Having worked in a public and private school, I can honestly say that the choice of attending or not makes the biggest difference when it comes to internal motivation.


 
I must disagree...I attended until I could not stand it any longer and stated cutting school before I finally quit..I was alradu working part time and was praised at my job by all the bosses for my attendance and job performance..Just being out of school gave me the internal motivation you speak of..


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## Makalakumu (Feb 12, 2010)

Drac said:


> If I had been allowed to attend school with being the target of bullies I might have prospered there...I remember getting a test back and the teacher wrote " You flunked another one stupid" on it in red pencil...Oh yeah, that made me wanna come back...



I believe that you should be able to walk away from a school with teachers like that and find something that works for you.  Teachers don't have to make comments like that to hurt others, they can do it by being professional and simply following the rules in a school.  You simply can't be creative if failure is punished.  When failure is punished, you are really just learning how to obey.


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## Blade96 (Feb 12, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I believe that you should be able to walk away from a school with teachers like that and find something that works for you. Teachers don't have to make comments like that to hurt others, they can do it by being professional and simply following the rules in a school. You simply can't be creative if failure is punished. When failure is punished, you are really just learning how to obey.


 
Drac's not the only one who had a teacher like that.

I had a teacher when i was in grade 3 once say to my parents about me, "when it comes to creativity, Jacklyn (my name) is a lost cause"

I was abused at that school by teachers and students.

I dont give a rats abdomen about her....Everything i ever did and prospered in since have been about the ARTS. My univ degree, my martial arts....

and the arts is all about creativity.

It hasnt changed much since then (the early 1980's back then) 

She can get stuffed.


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## Ken Morgan (Feb 15, 2010)

There are many bad teachers out there, there are many amazing teachers too, most I think fall in the middle somewhere.

Im halfway through getting my certification, and most of the people in my group will be average to amazing teachers, but judging by their work ethics and what they say/do during downtime, there are a couple that you just know will fall in the bad category. I dont know what you can do to prevent such people from teaching.


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## Blade96 (Feb 15, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> There are many bad teachers out there, there are many amazing teachers too, most I think fall in the middle somewhere.
> 
> Im halfway through getting my certification, and most of the people in my group will be average to amazing teachers, but judging by their work ethics and what they say/do during downtime, there are a couple that you just know will fall in the bad category. I dont know what you can do to prevent such people from teaching.


 
my mom's a teacher and she said when she was getting her ed degree there were some people doing education....but they didnt like children. go figure.

i think some of these people dont like kids. but they still let them in.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I don&#8217;t know what you can do to prevent such people from teaching.



My first principal was very hard on me.  I worked at one of the toughest schools in the city and he demanded that we improve our practice no matter what.  We had to be reflective and we had to show evidence of growth.  If we couldn't do that or we wouldn't look inside ourselves to see how we could constantly be moving forward with our practice, he would fire us.  Our district had a three year probationary period where you could be let go for any reason.  My first three years of teacher were punishing meatgrinders that taught me how to teach any student.


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## chaos1551 (Feb 15, 2010)

It's easy for those that live under the regulation of compulsory education to take it for granted while parents in less-privileged countries struggle daily for elementary school tuition for their children (often not seeing them for years at a time) just to help their children be able to rise above and make more of their lives than they would without education.  

With MTV and reality TV in our (American) culture, the lack of compulsory school would be an economic disaster.  We're bad off enough as it is.

I am so glad I have an elementary education.  Given the choice, I wouldn't have gone to school.  What kid would, seriously?  Without it, I wouldn't be able to express my thoughts here at all, typing and spelling and all that.


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## chaos1551 (Feb 15, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> Why are you and others assuming the children/adults won't take responsibility for their own education? I am personally ready to just trust people to take care of it and that we as a society just need to make sure that people have as many venues to do that as possible. Having worked in a public and private school, I can honestly say that the choice of attending or not makes the biggest difference when it comes to internal motivation.


 
I assume based on what I see.  How many children would fall through the cracks if education wasn't regulated?  I have my doubts about the current American system, and I see many ways it could be improved.  However, with alcoholism, laziness, abuse and any other social problems we could think of affecting us, I can see how many children would fall through the cracks.  Many do already.  For a lot of kids out there, school is their safe zone.  

My children are in public schools.  They are not all perfect students.  Some require more help than others.  Between the public schools and my wife and I, they are doing pretty well.  I know our education system could be better (yes, please let's get the Feds out of it).  I'd rather work on making what we have better than scrapping the compulsory side of it.  

The history of our education system is a little horrifying (we forgot to mention how schools are architecturally designed like prisons).  The system is still made up of people, and a lot of those people are good people.  There was one or two advisors/teachers who held me back.  There were a lot who just did their job.  But I remember the one or two who did a fine job of getting to the core of me, even if it was for just a moment.  Perhaps I have the luxury of such a memory, but it's the one I hold on to.  Not the crap.  

Without compulsory education, at first we would all educate our kids.  A few wouldn't, and they'd turn out okay.  The next generation would see a further decline in numbers.  And I predict the trend would continue.  For elective education to be as good as what we have now, there would have to be a major shift in American collective consciousness.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2010)

chaos1551 said:


> It's easy for those that live under the regulation of compulsory education to take it for granted while parents in less-privileged countries struggle daily for elementary school tuition for their children (often not seeing them for years at a time) just to help their children be able to rise above and make more of their lives than they would without education.
> 
> With MTV and reality TV in our (American) culture, the lack of compulsory school would be an economic disaster.  We're bad off enough as it is.
> 
> I am so glad I have an elementary education.  Given the choice, I wouldn't have gone to school.  What kid would, seriously?  Without it, I wouldn't be able to express my thoughts here at all, typing and spelling and all that.



Why does being force to go to school have to be equated with the ability to go to school?  Perhaps a society can make it possible for a person to attend whatever school they wish whenever they want to?


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2010)

Thought this might be topical.

http://www.ncc-1776.org/tle2010/tle557-20100214-04.html


-Rob


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2010)

chaos1551 said:


> I assume based on what I see.  How many children would fall through the cracks if education wasn't regulated?  I have my doubts about the current American system, and I see many ways it could be improved.  However, with alcoholism, laziness, abuse and any other social problems we could think of affecting us, I can see how many children would fall through the cracks.  Many do already.  For a lot of kids out there, school is their safe zone.
> 
> My children are in public schools.  They are not all perfect students.  Some require more help than others.  Between the public schools and my wife and I, they are doing pretty well.  I know our education system could be better (yes, please let's get the Feds out of it).  I'd rather work on making what we have better than scrapping the compulsory side of it.
> 
> The history of our education system is a little horrifying (we forgot to mention how schools are architecturally designed like prisons).  The system is still made up of people, and a lot of those people are good people.  There was one or two advisors/teachers who held me back.  There were a lot who just did their job.  But I remember the one or two who did a fine job of getting to the core of me, even if it was for just a moment.  Perhaps I have the luxury of such a memory, but it's the one I hold on to.  Not the crap.



Imagine of a kid could go to a school that would teach what interested them rather then something they are forced to go to?  Imagine spreading the public school wealth into small businesses rather then large institutions.  What would that do for your economy?



chaos1551 said:


> Without compulsory education, at first we would all educate our kids.  A few wouldn't, and they'd turn out okay.  The next generation would see a further decline in numbers.  And I predict the trend would continue.



Why would you assume that kids aren't interested in learning?



chaos1551 said:


> For elective education to be as good as what we have now, there would have to be a major shift in American collective consciousness.



What kind of shift?


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2010)

It seems like everyone here thinks education is a positive and important thing. If that's the case, then why do we need to use guns to compel people to engage in an activity which is so universally valued? Why wouldn't people seek out education for themselves and their children in the absence of coercive violence?


-Rob


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2010)

Thesemindz said:


> Why wouldn't people seek out education for themselves and their children in the absence of coercive violence?



Reading this thread, it seems like people really are arguing that humans are stupid, lazy, and immoral at their cores.  Thus they need someone to shepherd them toward the light...

How do we know that people need to be forced to go to school?  How do we know that people can't take care of their own education if we, as a society, make opportunities available?  

How do we know that public schools are failing?  Do we even know that they are failing?

The global achievement gap... 

Do we even know even our top schools are the bottom of the (1st World) barrel world wide?


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## Thesemindz (Feb 15, 2010)

If humans are stupid, lazy, and immoral, then why would we want to give some of them the capacity to use violence to compel others to obey?

As to your second point, we actually know for a fact that people will pursue education in the absence of coercion, because they did before the seizure of the schools by the state, and they still do all the time, even at great personal cost to themselves.

And we know that our schools are failing not only because we can compare their effectiveness now to other school systems, but also because we can compare the results to the level of education prior to compulsory education.

The reality of compulsory state education has nothing to do with the lofty positive goals that people imagine. It is about indoctrination and control, and those responsible have never made any effort to hide that fact.


-Rob


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 15, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> I wanted to throw up a poll to take an informal survey of the MT community. How do you feel about the concept of forcing someone to go to school? Compulsory schooling laws do just that. They force parents to send their children to school until they reach 16 or 18 years old depending on the state. Is this something our society needs to do?


Much better to get them started on Public Assistance right away, I always say. LOL
Sean


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## Makalakumu (Feb 15, 2010)

Thesemindz said:


> The reality of compulsory state education has nothing to do with the lofty positive goals that people imagine. It is about indoctrination and control, and those responsible have never made any effort to hide that fact.



This really is the truth.  If you can unglue someone's eyes from the TV or the Stuporbowl for a moment and put them on a book or two, you can read what people actually said they were trying to accomplish.  It's not some secret conspiracy if you can go out and openly read about how the elite wanted to intentionally dumb down Americans.  Hell, they even openly say that Americans are too literate and that it makes them too hard to control.  Look it up for yourself...

http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/underground/


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## Thesemindz (Feb 16, 2010)

Sure, I've posted the quotes here before. It's not a secret, it's just ignored.

Which is of course a very predictable outcome of fourteen or more years of eight hour a day indoctrination.


-Rob


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## chaos1551 (Feb 16, 2010)

Public school is not compulsory.  School is.  You can be home-schooled, you can go to a private school.  Typically, the moment a government subsidizes any school, it becomes a public school.  Taking money away from public schools and investing it in small businesses would create jobs.  Would the people fillings those jobs have an education?  I hope so.  If not, it sounds like a good way to control the masses for the elite.  Just keep them working and making money and they'll never know any better.  Seems like we've already been there in America.  The only way to know whether or not kids would be educated in contemporary American society without compulsory schooling would be to try it.  I don't know of any models that we could base the new system on (without compulsory schooling) that we could be relatively comfortable it would work.  

If the government was really trying to uphold some sort of conspiracy to "dumb down" Americans, they truly would use guns to force us into public schools and not give us the option of attending better schools.  Maybe at one time, but certainly not anymore.. though.. guns?  I think I get your point anyway.

Kids like to play.  They don't like to work.  Given the choice of what to study, I doubt they would get a well-rounded education--if any at all.  I'm not arguing that people are immoral and stupid, but in general they are lazy.  So when a parent (who thinks education is important) forces their kid to go to school, it's really no different to the kid if it's the government or not.  They still won't want to be there.

I'm confused about why the elite (who control government, in my opinion) would want people to be ignorant and less literate while on the same hand making school compulsory.  I don't think indoctrination works well when you're teaching people how to read and write, which enables them to move past the indoctrination.  Seems illogical.

The question at the beginning of this post is whether or not school should be compulsory, not public school.  Public school could be so much better.  No one is using guns to force us (fines, maybe) and I'm sure that people who don't know how to spell "goal" are in an extremely small minority in our education system.  Usually folks on public assistance (in my experience) are relatively uneducated.

I am no expert and I've done little research.  I convey from personal experience and from the experience of people I know.  My opinion is that public schools are getting worse and I'd like to see it get better.  I am not alone.  Though seemingly ineffective, G. Dub wanted to see it get better, hence No Child Left Behind.  Some argue that we need to put more money into the school budget, not slash that line item like we've generally been doing.  Teachers should not have to feel bad or afraid to fail students (and in my experience, most don't and aren't).  The major shift we need to take in our society that I believe would help the school system is moving away from political correctness.  Public school textbooks suffer horrendously because of political correctness.

In the spirit of debate, I'd like to point out again that I and those I disagree with can certainly agree on one thing: quality education is important.


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## David43515 (Feb 16, 2010)

Life is tough, it`s tougher if you`re stupid.

                                             John Wayne


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