# shot placement vs speed



## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2017)

So lets say you can draw and shoot with good speed and have shot placement where you can land multiple shots right over the center of the heart in an area that has the diameter of one inch so that your shots would just about be landing on top of each other. Now, lets say you could be a little faster and land your shots in the same spot, over the heart, but now your shots are wider so that they cover an area that has a diameter of three inches. You are still hitting the heart and lungs but by speeding up a bit you sacrifice some of the  pinpoint precision that allows you to land your shots all within a one inch diameter. As for me, I would rather be a little bit faster and still be able to hit the vitals. That way even if the bad guy is a bit more accurate than me I will shoot him first and I will hit him in a spot that will hopefully stop him before he is able to get off any shots at me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So lets say you can draw and shoot with good speed and have shot placement where you can land multiple shots right over the center of the heart in an area that has the diameter of one inch so that your shots would just about be landing on top of each other. Now, lets say you could be a little faster and land your shots in the same spot, over the heart, but now your shots are wider so that they cover an area that has a diameter of three inches. You are still hitting the heart and lungs but by speeding up a bit you sacrifice some of the  pinpoint precision that allows you to land your shots all within a one inch diameter. As for me, I would rather be a little bit faster and still be able to hit the vitals. That way even if the bad guy is a bit more accurate than me I will shoot him first and I will hit him in a spot that will hopefully stop him before he is able to get off any shots at me.


I would choose the greater accuracy (given the differences listed) with only a small preference. I'd assume my results (accuracy) would be worse under stress, so I'd want to keep accuracy.


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## CB Jones (Jun 27, 2017)

I want to shoot  as fast as I get all my shots in a 8-10 inch diameter circle.  It does no good to stack rounds on top of each other.

Also most gun fights are gonna happen at a range that you shouldn't be using your sights....just pointing and shooting.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I would choose the greater accuracy (given the differences listed) with only a small preference. I'd assume my results (accuracy) would be worse under stress, so I'd want to keep accuracy.



Supposedly in stress your accuracy is cut in half. So your shots would be twice as far apart in a gunfight as they would be at the range. So at the range if you can get your shots in a 3 inch diameter area over the heart, in the heat of a gunfight your shots will cover an area about 6 inches in diameter. So you would still be hitting the heart and lungs.


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## CB Jones (Jun 27, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Supposedly in stress your accuracy is cut in half. So your shots would be twice as far apart in a gunfight as they would be at the range. So at the range if you can get your shots in a 3 inch diameter area over the heart, in the heat of a gunfight your shots will cover an area about 6 inches in diameter. So you would still be hitting the heart and lungs.



The problem is most people train to shoot targets......not gunfight.

Of course your accuracy is gonna go to crap if you only train to take your time and shoot targets and then you are put into a position of having to shoot fast, move, use cover, and reload......you don't have that muscle memory.

Instead you should be moving, shooting fast, and improving your ability to reload and get back into the fight....pushing yourself to get faster, smoother, and more accurate under pressure.....build muscle memory in gunfighting.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Supposedly in stress your accuracy is cut in half. So your shots would be twice as far apart in a gunfight as they would be at the range. So at the range if you can get your shots in a 3 inch diameter area over the heart, in the heat of a gunfight your shots will cover an area about 6 inches in diameter. So you would still be hitting the heart and lungs.


I'm assuming the initial point of aim is off. The 3/6 inch diameter is a measure of precision. Let's assume I'm also off in the general aim (say, 3 inches further right, for the center of the group). Still, there's a reasonable argument to be made in either direction. As I said, it's not a strong preference.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> The problem is most people train to shoot targets......not gunfight.
> 
> Of course your accuracy is gonna go to crap if you only train to take your time and shoot targets and then you are put into a position of having to shoot fast, move, use cover, and reload......you don't have that muscle memory.
> 
> Instead you should be moving, shooting fast, and improving your ability to reload and get back into the fight....pushing yourself to get faster, smoother, and more accurate under pressure.....build muscle memory in gunfighting.


Unfortunately, most places people can go to shoot don't allow any of that (moving, drawing, etc.).


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## CB Jones (Jun 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, most places people can go to shoot don't allow any of that (moving, drawing, etc.).




Thats what you get for being city folk.  

There are some good private companies out there that do courses on tactical gunfighting.  Also, 3 Gun competitions will improve your skills as well.


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## DanT (Jun 27, 2017)

Just put 3-5 rounds centre of mass and be aware of what's going on around you. Don't worry to much about where your hitting, I guarantee under stress, your accuracy will pretty much go to **** anyways.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Thats what you get for being city folk.
> 
> There are some good private companies out there that do courses on tactical gunfighting.  Also, 3 Gun competitions will improve your skills as well.


I'm aware of the tactical training courses - those cost far more than range time, though. And even in the country (where I grew up), there are scant few places I'd consider safe to shoot anymore, as population in rural areas becomes more dense out here. So most people don't get training beyond stand and shoot. Nearly all of my additional training has been with snap caps.


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## lklawson (Jun 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So lets say you can draw and shoot with good speed and have shot placement where you can land multiple shots right over the center of the heart in an area that has the diameter of one inch so that your shots would just about be landing on top of each other. Now, lets say you could be a little faster and land your shots in the same spot, over the heart, but now your shots are wider so that they cover an area that has a diameter of three inches. You are still hitting the heart and lungs but by speeding up a bit you sacrifice some of the  pinpoint precision that allows you to land your shots all within a one inch diameter. As for me, I would rather be a little bit faster and still be able to hit the vitals. That way even if the bad guy is a bit more accurate than me I will shoot him first and I will hit him in a spot that will hopefully stop him before he is able to get off any shots at me.


Moving to cover, or just moving period if cover is not available, is vastly more important.

The only thing that stops instantly is a CNS hit.  It doesn't matter a whole lot if your hits score 1/10th of a second faster than his.  Return fire sucks and return hits suck more.  You don't need to be "faster" you need to be "fast enough."  You don't need to be "more accurate" you need to be "accurate enough."  Fast enough and accurate enough for what?  That depends on the circumstances.

If you put 6 bullets in the heart it still takes time for the bad guy to die.  Dying ain't dead.  Dying people often don't know they're dying.  If it takes 15 seconds for a person with 6 bullets in his heart to keel over (it'll probably take more, but whatever), how is being 1/10th of a second faster going to help?

Statistically, it seems to take about 3-ish seconds on average for trained people to react to an unplanned stimulus and draw from concealment and put a shot on target.  For very skilled and experienced shooters, that can be cut down to maybe 1.5-ish seconds.  Unless you get a CNS hit the 1.5 seconds difference between the very highly skilled and trained and the pretty well trained and practiced is still well within the time period that a dying-but-not-dead bad guy can still be operating.  How much time and effort went into cutting that 3 down to 1.5 which might potentially have been better spent building other skills from "suck" to "OK" instead of expending the effort on The Law of Diminishing Returns building a "good" skill to "amazing?"

According to research done by Active Response Training, if you don't move in a gunfight you have an 85% chance of being shot, and 51% chance of being shot in the torso while if you move and shoot you have a 47% chance of being hit, with 11% chance of taking a torso hit, but if you move to cover and return fire your chance of being shot drop to 26% with a 6% torso hit rate.

So instead of spending time working on cutting your draw time down by a fraction of a second, practice moving (preferably to cover), drawing on the move, and returning accurate fire while on the move.

A lot of studies and after action reviews indicate that even people trained to shoot two-handed will frequently draw and fire one-handed while under stress, so spend time doing one-handed shooting (while moving to cover).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, most places people can go to shoot don't allow any of that (moving, drawing, etc.).


 You should take shooting classes where I take them. They do all of that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> You should take shooting classes where I take them. They do all of that.


I don't know of anyplace around here that does. There may be something, but I've not found it.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 28, 2017)

generally speaking the first person to get shots on target wins.  that is not draw speed, that is shots on target. there is a whole lot of chaos to get through to get your shots on target.  Iklawson is right, you have to move. you also have to learn to fire from odd positions.  forget your sights.  in many incidences you dont even see them.
i would say your number one objective is to ingrain good habits. make them hard wired into your brain.  a smooth draw will beat shooting yourself in the thigh or calf every time.


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## CB Jones (Jun 28, 2017)

Gun out and putting shots down range is what is important followed up by shooting while moving.

We are finding that taking a more aggressive approach works better in a gunfight.

In force on force training we are seeing that being aggressive initially and then moving to cover while firing gives us better results.

There has been many instances of officers being shot as they are moving to cover.  You have to move while maintaining the ability to fire and cover yourself.


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## Buka (Jun 28, 2017)

Just went to the range yesterday with some of the boys from work.....






And then went right across the street...






But it's not all fun and games. There's always the threat of getting sand in your smoothie. 
(I know, I suck)


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## marques (Jun 28, 2017)

Under stress we tend to increase speed and decrease accuracy. So I train more accuracy. In ideal conditions (were stress does affect performance) I still find both, speed an accuracy, useful. Speed to keep the opponent busy, and eventually volume does the job. Accuracy to finish quicker, one good shot, when the opportunity comes.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 28, 2017)

Buka said:


> There's always the threat of getting sand in your smoothie.


im less worried about sand in my smoothie than sand in my underwear.


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## lklawson (Jun 28, 2017)

A useful article which discusses shot placement, caliber, and some other stuff.  While he doesn't use the phrase, "dying ain't dead," he does hammer the subject pretty solid.

The "Center Mass" Myth and Ending a Gunfight -Triggernometry - GunsAmerica Digest

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## CB Jones (Jun 28, 2017)

Buka said:


> Just went to the range yesterday with some of the boys from work.....
> 
> View attachment 20859
> 
> ...



We have range day Friday.  No beach but we have a fish fry afterwards.


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## Buka (Jun 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> We have range day Friday.  No beach but we have a fish fry afterwards.



Ooooh, fish frys are always good! 

We went the poached route....cube up some fresh Ahi...


 

Poach for three minutes, rinse under cold water, add mayo, finely chopped onion and celery and make sanggies...

 

Sorry for the derail, but talk of shooting always makes me hungry.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> im less worried about sand in my smoothie than sand in my underwear.


As long as you keep your underwear out of your smoothie, and _vice versa_.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 28, 2017)

Movement when shooting, adrenalized shooting, shooting from cover all of these should be part of your regular firearms training.  If you are only going to the range and shooting at a stationary target from a stand still position then your training is probably not enough.

If anyone is in Vegas I can take you to a private range during the week and perform all of the above!

PS
Unfortunately I do not have the ocean like Buka above for afterwards but we can certainly have drinks and swim in the pool!


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know of anyplace around here that does. There may be something, but I've not found it.



One of the main places where I take shooting classes people come from all over the country, and if you ask me its worth it.


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## CB Jones (Jun 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> One of the main places where I take shooting classes people come from all over the country, and if you ask me its worth it.



Do they teach the Weaver stance?


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 28, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Do they teach the Weaver stance?



They teach a modified Weaver stance although you're not required to use it.


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## CB Jones (Jun 28, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> They teach a modified Weaver stance although you're not required to use it.



Ok, I prefer more of an isosceles type stance.


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## Buka (Jun 28, 2017)

I use the same stance I box from. Seems to work.


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## CB Jones (Jun 28, 2017)

Buka said:


> I use the same stance I box from. Seems to work.



Support side arm bent or straight?


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## Buka (Jun 29, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Support side arm bent or straight?



Bent. I snap to that position.


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## CB Jones (Jun 29, 2017)

Buka said:


> Bent. I snap to that position.



You are using a Weaver or Modified Weaver.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 29, 2017)

There is some good training to be had at Front Site.  It can be expensive but good training none the less.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 29, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Ok, I prefer more of an isosceles type stance.



So do I. Some people do use the isosceles stance there.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 29, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> There is some good training to be had at Front Site.  It can be expensive but good training none the less.



If you're a life member you take all the classes you want for life for free.


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## lklawson (Jun 29, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> If you're a life member you take all the classes you want for life for free.


And costs $9,900 at the lowest or as much as $18,000 if you make monthly credit card payments.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 29, 2017)

Here is the Front Site membership costs:

Firearms Training Memberships


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## Tgace (Jun 29, 2017)

You revive this topic every couple of years or something? 

Accuracy vs Speed

My answer remains the same:

_If you can place 3 rounds touching in 30 seconds... You need to speed up. If you hit a limb with one out of 3 shoots in 1 second...you need to slow down.

I know I know...we all heard the old saw that "smooth is fast". Yes.

However that doesn't mean what most people think it means. I can be smooth AND SLOW. You need to shoot as fast as you " smoothly " can.

Professional shooters use shot timers for a reason. You need to balance speed and accuracy with a smooth presentation/gun handling._


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## Tgace (Jun 29, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> They teach a modified Weaver stance although you're not required to use it.


*
Generally, I dislike fixedness in both long swords and hands. Fixedness means a dead hand. Pliability is a living hand. You must bear this in mind. -Musashi*


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## Buka (Jun 29, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You are using a Weaver or Modified Weaver.



Okay, Mister Smarty Pants, what color sneakers am I wearing?


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## CB Jones (Jun 29, 2017)

Buka said:


> Okay, Mister Smarty Pants, what color sneakers am I wearing?



Gray trimmed with red


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## Buka (Jun 29, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Gray trimmed with red



Man, you _are_ good. Damn.


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## CB Jones (Jun 29, 2017)

Buka said:


> Man, you _are_ good. Damn.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 29, 2017)

Tgace said:


> You revive this topic every couple of years or something?
> My answer remains the same:
> 
> _If you can place 3 rounds touching in 30 seconds... You need to speed up. If you hit a limb with one out of 3 shoots in 1 second...you need to slow down._


I agree. But not everybody else here does.

BTW you've got quite a memory.


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 29, 2017)

lklawson said:


> And costs $9,900 at the lowest or as much as $18,000 if you make monthly credit card payments.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


When I bought my life membership it cost me $500


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## PhotonGuy (Jun 29, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is the Front Site membership costs:
> 
> Firearms Training Memberships


Unless they're doing a special I would never buy a membership directly from Front Sight. You will be paying way too much.


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## lklawson (Jun 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> When I bought my life membership it cost me $500


Yes, but you trained with these:









And took a pic. with your instructor:





Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> One of the main places where I take shooting classes people come from all over the country, and if you ask me its worth it.


Worth it, yes. Unfortunately, not affordable to me right now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2017)

Buka said:


> I use the same stance I box from. Seems to work.


My shooting stance changed naturally with my MA training. I tend to take what would probably be called a modified Weaver stance. To me, it's a left-side hanmi, with the weight forward. This works especially well for me, since I'm right-handed, and left-eye dominant.


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## PhotonGuy (Jul 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Worth it, yes. Unfortunately, not affordable to me right now.



As I said before, don't buy a membership directly from Front Sight unless you want to spend a fortune. There are much less expensive ways to get life memberships, such as on eBay.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> As I said before, don't buy a membership directly from Front Sight unless you want to spend a fortune. There are much less expensive ways to get life memberships, such as on eBay.


I'll keep that in mind. It's something I'd enjoy doing someday.


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