# Drop the Kata?



## James Kovacich (Oct 2, 2009)

The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?

These are the words of a famous martial artist.

*Self-actualization is the important thing. And my personal message to the people is that I hope that they will search within themselves for honest self-expression.*


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?
> 
> These are the words of a famous martial artist.
> 
> *Self-actualization is the important thing. And my personal message to the people is that I hope that they will search within themselves for honest self-expression.*


 
Seeing that there're 2 questions here, I'll answer each one seperate.

1) Keep/drop the kata?  Really doesn't matter to me.  The majority of arts that I've done have kata, so I'm used to them by now.   However, while I do think that there's value in them, ie: being able to extract techs. from them, I do not feel that kata should be the sole determining basis as to whether or not your art will a) be effective and b) whether or not you can fight.  The techs. that are in the system and getting into the ring and sparring is, IMO, a good portion of the meat and potatoes.  

2) How would my art fair in Hawaii today?  Well, thats where my Kenpo came from back then, so I'd say that many of the Ken(m)po/Kaju systems already have alot of respect.  However, much has changed from back then to today, meaning that if the same mentality that they had back then was used today, there'd be lawyers camping outside of every Kenpo school in the world. LOL!  IMO, I'm all for a hard workout.  Thats what the training is about, and it should be tough, there should be contact.  That being said, I'm sure there is stuff thats been modified for today.  

This is why I feel that people should know what they're getting into before they join up.  If they dont feel that they can handle the contact, the training, etc., then perhaps they should find another hobby or accept it.  

I'm sure if you compared a Kenpo school in any state to what you'd see in Hawaii, I'm sure there're differences.  Never been to Hawaii...hopefully one day....but I just have a feeling that if you weren't prepared to bang, then you're gonna be in for a rude awakening.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 2, 2009)

I like your posts, you are a really objective person! I think my point is leaning towards "better spent" training time "decifering"which takes a lifetime or "honing the tools." 

Also training tools that apply to anything versus tools that are "specific use" ingrained over time.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> I like your posts, you are a really objective person! I think my point is leaning towards "better spent" training time "decifering"which takes a lifetime or "honing the tools."
> 
> Also training tools that apply to anything versus tools that are "specific use" ingrained over time.


 
Thank you.   Likewise I have enjoyed reading your posts here.  

I suppose, it comes down to what someone wants to get out of their training.  Training, regardless of what it is, can take a life time IMO.  But, how do we want to spend that lifetime, as you suggested here?  I could take the first move out of Parkers Short Form 2, which is stepping forward with the right foot, while doing a right inward block, followed by a right outward handsword.  I can apply that move to a number of things, but, seeing that there're already hundreds of techs., in addition to things that we come up with on the fly, so thats why I feel while there are benefits of kata, I dont need them as a sole source to fight or find a tech to do.


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## LawDog (Oct 3, 2009)

In the system that I teach there are only five full empty hand forms, two kicking kata's and 4 weapons forms.
*All of the empty hand forms are assigned by rank however a student is not required to learn them. These kata's are "optional" training material.
*The weapons forms are not assigned to any rank level and are optional to learn as well.
*The kicking kata's are used to develop kicking skills that can match hand skills. These kata's are not rank required but the students must be able to do them at their own rank level.

Two acquire a teaching or rank examiners certificate a black belt must know all of the material, including the forms.


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## jamz (Oct 3, 2009)

I like katas because I think they can train your body into moving well, as well as being able to practice stuff at more or less full force, something you can't do unless you can get 3-4 people to come at you with pads at the proper time.

I think they help balance incorporate into movement, and in a fight you will probably be moving, and will probably benefit from balance, and having practiced same, even if the movement you are doing in real life does not resemble any set kata whatsoever.

Plus, I think it looks cool.


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## punisher73 (Oct 3, 2009)

As to the original question and example of John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo. That system is derived through the Kajukenbo branch of martial arts started on Hawaii. Although Kajukenbo has 14 Palamas (there name for their forms in honor/reference to the Palama settlement where it was started) they are not the main focus of their training. They are, in some cases, used for attribute development and the main focus is on their training methods and self-defense techniques.

My question would be, did Hackleman drop all of the foundation and basically start teaching his own version of MMA? How far removed is what he teaches really Kempo or Kajukenbo?

That being said.  It all boils down to the training methods and how you are learning to condition and apply what you knowl.  I have known TKD guys that have definately held their own on the street (art used as an example since it is most often criticized as being a McDojo and can't be used in "real life") and trained hard for the street.  If on the other hand you got a Kajukenbo instructor (an art which is known for it's rough and tough training and effectiveness) and decided he just wanted to make money and turned his school into a McDojo and his students always got beat on the street, is it the art that is at fault or the way it was taught?

Everything in MA has a time and place and function, from conditioning, basics, kata and drills.  It is up to the instructor and student to understand what those are.


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## Danjo (Oct 3, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> As to the original question and example of John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo. That system is derived through the Kajukenbo branch of martial arts started on Hawaii. Although Kajukenbo has 14 Palamas (there name for their forms in honor/reference to the Palama settlement where it was started) they are not the main focus of their training. They are, in some cases, used for attribute development and the main focus is on their training methods and self-defense techniques.
> 
> My question would be, did Hackleman drop all of the foundation and basically start teaching his own version of MMA? How far removed is what he teaches really Kempo or Kajukenbo?


 
Here's what Chuck Liddell says in his autobiography:

_*"[Hackleman's] style of fighting was called Kajukenbo, which was created by a group of Hawaiian martial artists in the mid 1940's. It was hard-core. The guys who started it weren't looking for some kind of inner peace. They developed Kajukenbo because they wanted to become better street fighters...The Pit was for hard-core devotees of the martial arts. Then he [Hackleman] realized owning a gym called the Pit and having a rep for teaching what was essentially street fighting didn't exactly invite the widest swath of customers. That's when he tweaked the Kajukenbo style and created his signature form of karate, Hawaiian Kempo. It had all the striking and fighting techniques of Kaju, along with conditioning drills that made it more mainstream."*_

So essentially he shifted the emphasis away from strictly self defense/street fighting, towards sports competition MMA. That's why he dropped the forms etc.


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## suicide (Oct 3, 2009)

ive seen that kempo tattoo on chucks arm whats his lineage or where and from who did he learn kempo ?


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## Twin Fist (Oct 4, 2009)

from john hackleman, a kajukenbo BB


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## James Kovacich (Oct 4, 2009)

Sometime before his death, Walter Godin promoted John Hackelman to 10th degree.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 4, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> As to the original question and example of John Hackleman's Hawaiian Kempo. That system is derived through the Kajukenbo branch of martial arts started on Hawaii. Although Kajukenbo has 14 Palamas (there name for their forms in honor/reference to the Palama settlement where it was started) they are not the main focus of their training. They are, in some cases, used for attribute development and the main focus is on their training methods and self-defense techniques.
> 
> My question would be, did Hackleman drop all of the foundation and basically start teaching his own version of MMA? How far removed is what he teaches really Kempo or Kajukenbo?
> 
> ...


 John Hackelmans MMA came before the term MMA came into use. My brother-in-laws instructor also was mixing martial arts back in the '70's. http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm

They were profighters and some including my brother-in-law fought pro boxers under boxing rules.


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## takadadojokeith (Oct 4, 2009)

I say keep the kata, but remember it's of a memory device and a decent aerobic workout than fight-specific training.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 4, 2009)

I was looking to see how people viewed reality training and if they "think" what they do is enough. Having 2 eskrima instructors has helped fill a couple of holes for me. 

But the the questions that come to me revolve around footwork. The traditional training builds the solid foundation that I think many are missing today but where do we go with it?

As Mr. Hayashi trained my brother-in-law and he in turn trained me that at 4th kyu all of the traditional material is tested from a kickboxing stance. So that meant as soon as one passed their 5th kyu test they needed to also attend the intermediate class. From 4th kyu and above all tests are cover all the material from 10th kyu all the way to whatever rank is being tested for. 

When the UFC hit the USA I thought for sure our Kumiuchi (Mr. Hayashis pro's) fighters would of done well. But would they? Fighting is such an evolving process, something that may never be needed but if it is, will it work?

I do kata but it's not a focal point of my training. I do it for one of my instructors and at some point I may decide to add a traditional class. I've had many problems in my life, growing up a bit wild in the '70's. When my sister got married, it was her husban that helped me clear my head with traditional Karate, Judo/Jujutsu, Kobudo, Aikido and Kumiuchi along with meditation and all the other traditions. 

It would be foolish to say that my past trainings and other peoples trainings have little value because I am proof that their is value that most may never see.

But I think that todays styles need to include enough of what our founders went through in order to discover what we really have and if it will save life.


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## Danjo (Oct 4, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> Sometime before his death, Walter Godin promoted John Hackelman to 10th degree.


 
Yes but it was in Kempo, not Kajukenbo. Godin was a 10th under Prof. Chow as well as a Kaju black belt. http://thepitmalibu.com/hawaiiankempohistory.html


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## Milt G. (Oct 4, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?
> 
> These are the words of a famous martial artist.
> 
> *Self-actualization is the important thing. And my personal message to the people is that I hope that they will search within themselves for honest self-expression.*


 
Hello,

As my martial art study is not based on the ability to "brawl on the street", I do not think the study of kata or forms should be dropped.  Technology has allowed for alternatives to that situation.  Logical thought and action can, and should, help too.  The individual practitioner and their training determines the effectiveness of their art.

Even if it (my motivation) was based only on pure aggressive fighting ability, I would still keep the kata, but perhaps spend a little less time working them.  Like, if I lived in a neighborhood that I had to fight my way in and out of, and was void of my sidearm.   I bet that I would probably move first, though.  
It is true that kata is not actual fighting, but kata does contain key aspects of martial movement and motion worth studying IMO.  To give up kata is to give up the "art" aspect of the martial arts, or Kenpo.  What you have left, without kata, is a martial science.  Somewhat different then a martial art.

While I enjoyed the "clip", on some level, I cannot imagine myself being involved in such a situation.  I believe that was meant to show a "contest" of some sort?  If I were involved in something like that I would think most of my training, in general, would have already failed me in some critical way.

So, I say no...  Keep the kata and taylor your training and study to what your goals are.  if your "goal" is to be a streetfighter (and I have no idea why anyone would wish to "aspire" to that) you will probably have less time to spend on the study of kata.  I do not think they should be dropped, though.

Thank you.
Milt G.


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## suicide (Oct 4, 2009)

how far did chuck liddell get in his kenpo ?


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## KenpoDave (Oct 4, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> But I think that today's styles need to include enough of what our founders went through in order to discover what we really have and if it will save life.


 
Well put.  We seem to be willing to question what we do, and overly eager to discard what has been done without enough fundamental experience to know what it is we are actually discarding.


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## punisher73 (Oct 4, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> John Hackelmans MMA came before the term MMA came into use. My brother-in-laws instructor also was mixing martial arts back in the '70's. http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm
> 
> They were profighters and some including my brother-in-law fought pro boxers under boxing rules.


 
Kajukenbo is often called the "first mixed martial art" by several high ranking Kajukenbo people.  The reference was in the mixing of arts, not something based on the popular sports contests.  Kajukenbo was the first  art to combine aspects of different arts and put them into a formal systematized method of learning in America.


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## punisher73 (Oct 4, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> The early Ken/mpo systems in Hawaii were measured against brawlers with way less technical skill than that is prevalent today. As early as the 1980's John Hackelmans Hawaiian Kempo dropped the kata and his is system is doing pretty well. But how do you "think" your Ken/mpo systems will fair in Hawaii today?


 

 Kajukenbo was NOT designed to be used against unskilled streetbrawlers.  It was designed by the founders to be effective against the most common types of fighters that they would encounter.  At the time this was mainly boxers and people with FMA training.  Hawaii was a melting pot of martial arts back in the early 40's and 50's.  I would say that even though the arts might be more accessible to the average person, I would say that the fighters back then were a lot tougher.

So as to the original question, I would say that they would do very well if trained properly.  But, if your only goal is to fight, all you really need are a few good basics and tactics and then train them inside and out in all types of scenarios.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 4, 2009)

I hoped that the clip would show that the streets have changed and lead to a discussion accepting much much worse environments are out there. In our "protected" training environments some will never know what they can do although they will truely believe they are safe. 
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=trinitarios+with+machetes&aq=f&oq=&aqi=&start=0

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=ms13&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g-s6&start=0

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&sa=1&q=Nortenos&aq=f&oq=&aqi=g8g-m2&start=0

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&um=1&q=surenos&revid=363967525&ei=hQDJSve-AZzmsAOex5XNBA&sa=X&oi=revisions_inline&resnum=0&ct=broad-revision&cd=1&start=0

http://banderasnews.com/0704/hb-mexicanalliance.htm

http://www.gangpreventionservices.org/fresnobulldogs.asp
Sure were not likely to run into some crazies, or at least some will make sure they won't. But things happen and the world is full of caca and I feel sorry for those that think "they have it covered."

My friends like to talk about "testing their techniques in the lab" and I like say we need to "test outside of the lab."

That dosen't mean getting into streetfights but it does mean seeing how we and our styles fare with other types of fighters outside of are schools and training partners. Then we know better, not for sure, nothing is for sure, but better.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Oct 5, 2009)

back to "Kata-yes , or no"

I say keep practicing them, as:

#1) preserves the art
#2) Valuable pieces of techniques, and footwork are gained.

my 2 sense.


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## K-man (Oct 5, 2009)

The mere fact that the question is asked shows that many people do not understand what kata actually is.  :asian:


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## James Kovacich (Oct 5, 2009)

Or maybe the question just flew right over someones head.


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2009)

I dont want to speak for James, and James, please correct me if I'm wrong, but the impression I got from his last post, with those google clips, was to ask:  is kata alone, going to help you, if you were to face some of the folks, with the weapons that they use today?  I still maintain what I said before, 2 of the arts I do, Kenpo and Arnis, both have kata.  I do them and I teach them.  However, things can be taken from them, I do not mislead people into believing that that is all that you need.  IMO, to think that you never need to spar, to think that you never need to work on random, spontaneous drills for SD, is doing more harm than good.

Just my .02.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 6, 2009)

I still do Kata but it is not what I teach. My point is with the direction of martial arts today and  the world is continually get rougher. I was trying to pose a question as to whether people really think their training is keeping up with society. 

I knew what to expect from the posters but I did think that some would of included what they've done as far as evolving as an artist. I don't belive that martial arts were ever meant to be unchanged. Most the original masters changed things. If they had not, the Naha, Shuri and Tomari lineages wouldn't of muted from Okinawa Te to Okinawan and  Japanese Karatedo. 

Even our more recent lineages muted, but the current students don't seem to have the vision as those before. The world is still changing, but the arts have in a way slowed down. The point isn't about brawling. The point is people don't realize how easy it is to get their a$s handed to them.

Probably most never will get in an altercation, so it really dosn't matter that much. I am surprised though given the fact of the  Ken/mpo lineages evolution that so few today seem to do more. Mr. Parker even spoke of it when he "spoke about when he's gone."


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## punisher73 (Oct 6, 2009)

James Kovacich said:


> I still do Kata but it is not what I teach. My point is with the direction of martial arts today and the world is continually get rougher. I was trying to pose a question as to whether people really think their training is keeping up with society.
> 
> I knew what to expect from the posters but I did think that some would of included what they've done as far as evolving as an artist. I don't belive that martial arts were ever meant to be unchanged. Most the original masters changed things. If they had not, the Naha, Shuri and Tomari lineages wouldn't of muted from Okinawa Te to Okinawan and Japanese Karatedo.
> 
> ...


 
Not sure what your intent was on the original question then.  Most of the people who train kata realize that it is only a piece of the puzzle and not the end all that will turn you into a super deadly fighter without the other pieces.

Working in law enforcement I get to see sides of society that most don't.  Here is what I have observed.  While society is getting more violent, MA's are not needed as much.  It used to be that there were some bad asses out there that could fight and that was how things were settled.  MOST of today's criminals couldn't fight worth a darn and rely on a gun to protect them.  So at some point, if ALL you are worried about is protecting yourself all of the time, then go get a CCW and practice combat shooting and all it's aspects.

The other aspect is that MOST of these "violent encounters" that get posted are completely avoidable.  They are people that put themselves in bad situations and are surprised when it turns bad.  MA's are designed to have the forethought to avoid places and situations that cause trouble.

There are other things to be gained by martial arts that have nothing to do with fighting.  That's what keeps people coming back, they enjoy their pursuit and relationships that they build through their training.  

If all you want to do is fight I can save you lots of time and money...Here is the secret to being a super deadly street fighter.

1) Take up Powerlifting
2) Practice lead hand punch followed by a rear hand punch
3) Learn to deploy them as fast and powerful as possible
4) If you think you are going to be in trouble hit the other guy as hard as possible first.


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## James Kovacich (Oct 6, 2009)

Punisher,

Your 1st line hit, it as well as an overall good post. As the thread went on I realized that the initial question didn't really match my intended expression. My fault.

All,

I am big on being (training wise) open and sharing with no restrictions. Martial arts in general is a bit closed in order to protect their systems. So it is understandable. But being open to other ways does not mean it needs to become a part of their primary system or changes to the system have to be made. 

Not long ago trained with a Kenpo instructor who told me. "What I teach you today, is yours to do what you want with it. Incorporate it into your system, say you invented it, I don't care. What I give you is yours." I only mention this because it is opposite of the "protecting the system" mentality. Sorry my friends.

I think I should of posted my expression in better words and possibly in a differant forum.


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## Danjo (Oct 6, 2009)

Well, kata is a life-long endeavor to perfect one's form and movement. However, one should first be taught how to survive a fight. There's an old saying that goes, _"When you're up to your asp in alligators, you tend to forget that your original objective was to drain the swamp." _Teaching someone kata before teaching them to defend themselves is like insisting that the swamp get drained before the alligators are dealt with. Nothing wrong with "draining the swamp", but the priorities need to be correct. Most schools will teach kata at the same time as self defense, but there are those that insist that the kata be learned first.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Oct 6, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, kata is a life-long endeavor to perfect one's form and movement. However, one should first be taught how to survive a fight. There's an old saying that goes, _"When you're up to your asp in alligators, you tend to forget that your original objective was to drain the swamp." _Teaching someone kata before teaching them to defend themselves is like insisting that the swamp get drained before the alligators are dealt with. Nothing wrong with "draining the swamp", but the priorities need to be correct. Most schools will teach kata at the same time as self defense, but there are those that insist that the kata be learned first.


 

I do have to agree with Dan, My school teaches you in the beginning, basic blocks, and thai boxing,a little JKD theories/techniques, with angle stepping to the 45degrees.
The rest comes later, once the practtioner knows "Basic sparring".
This way, we feel the student is ready for more. 
i still feel forms/kata is important, though, and i would still teach them.


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## punisher73 (Oct 6, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Well, kata is a life-long endeavor to perfect one's form and movement. However, one should first be taught how to survive a fight. There's an old saying that goes, _"When you're up to your asp in alligators, you tend to forget that your original objective was to drain the swamp." _Teaching someone kata before teaching them to defend themselves is like insisting that the swamp get drained before the alligators are dealt with. Nothing wrong with "draining the swamp", but the priorities need to be correct. Most schools will teach kata at the same time as self defense, but there are those that insist that the kata be learned first.


 
Agreed.  I think some still hold on to the old tradition of making sure that the student won't misuse what they learn and want to get to know them a little better before imparting certain things.  Some of them might not even be aware that they filter it that way.


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