# How did TSD kata change from their Okinawan Roots?



## Makalakumu (Apr 15, 2006)

I came across this website and I struck by the similarity between their kata curriculum and our hyung curriculum. However, there are some differences in the kata they practice. First question, are these the root kata for our hyung? If so, how and why did they change? 

http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html


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## rmclain (Apr 19, 2006)

It's no secret that most tang soo do/kong soo do instructors opening schools following WWII were karate students.  These forms (kata) were the base for most of the schools that opened following WWII in South Korea.

I'm going to fill in two schools and anyone else is welcome to add more.  

Chang Moo Kwan founder, Byung In Yoon, studied karate under Toyama Kanken at Nihon University in Japan.  Toyama studied under Yasutsune Itosu in Okinawa.  Byung In Yoon also studied chuan-fa throughout his youth in Manchuria prior to traveling to Japan.

Ji Do Kwan founder, Yoon Ui Byung (Yoon Kwye Byung) also studied under Toyama Kanken.

Even though both students had the same roots, they are both human and subject to their own perceptions and interpretations of the techniques and forms.  Especially as people put in more personal study time they may apply another interpretation to their forms.  I'm sure that the chuan-fa must have influence Byung In Yoon's interpretation of the karate forms.  

Being away from a direct instructor can also lead someone to interject some bad habits in to their practice - not that this was the case, just another point.

Yes, Okinawan karate forms are the root and many changed interpretations as the years passed and knowledge passed from teacher to students, etc.

R. McLain


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## Danny Reid (Dec 7, 2006)

rmclain said:


> It's no secret that most tang soo do/kong soo do instructors opening schools following WWII were karate students. These forms (kata) were the base for most of the schools that opened following WWII in South Korea.
> 
> I'm going to fill in two schools and anyone else is welcome to add more.
> 
> ...


Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do forms (hyungs) are essentially similar to those of Shotokan...with *SOME* subtle differences.  Some of the techniques have been changed in the Korean forms, and the kicks are generally higher...but Funakoshi's Shotokan is the obvious inspiration/parentage of TKD and TSD


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## exile (Dec 7, 2006)

Danny Reid said:


> Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do forms (hyungs) are essentially similar to those of Shotokan...with *SOME* subtle differences.  Some of the techniques have been changed in the Korean forms, and the kicks are generally higher...but Funakoshi's Shotokan is the obvious inspiration/parentage of TKD and TSD



That's definitely the case: not just Gen. Choi, whose 2nd dan rank in Shotokan (most likely under some senior student of Gichin Funakoshi, if not GF himself) is well known, but also Lee Won Kuk (founder Chung Do Kwan) and Ro Pyong Chik (Song Moo Kwan, my lineage ) earned black belts from Funakoshi himself. 

There are some interesting consequences of the Okinawan vs. Japanese lineage issues here. In the kata UpNKy posted, the stances are quite high---they look similar to WTF `walking stances', decried in some quarters as an Olympic-style innovation. But as the videos illustrate, the Okinawan forms are (and were) quite a bit higher than they became under Funakoshi's influence. The interpretation of the hyungs I've learned in a Song Moo Kwan lineage dojang are much, much lower---just what you'd expect from a kwan origin deriving from Funakoshi himself.


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## MBuzzy (Dec 8, 2006)

I definately can see the similarities, but (slightly off topic) I'm curious as to the transitions between movements and strikes shown in the videos.  

My question is whether this is standard of Shotokan or am I just seeing something that isn't there?  But it doesn't seem as smooth of a transition between each movement as we practice in TSD - at least not that I have seen in my own forms, my Sa Bom Nim's, or the other videos I have seen.

Please let me know if this is too far off topic and needs a new thread...


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## rmclain (Dec 8, 2006)

I lived for the month of November 2006 in Okinawa specifically to meet instructors and research.

In Okinawa, Shotokan is not considered an Okinawan art.  It seems that many instructors believe Okinwan karate changed with Yasutsune Itosu (Funokoshi's teacher) when he started instructing children. (This statement does not really have a point - just giving a report on what I witnessed and was told in Okinawa).

I visited both Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu dojos there and all of them had low stances in their kihon(kibon) movement practice and their kata(hyung).  I did not get to visit the two other major styles of Okinawa karate, Ueichi-Ryu and Matsubayashi-Ryu.  So, I cannot give a report on those.

As lineage and instructors become more removed from the root art, things will naturally evolve and change.  Even though the Tangsoo-Do forms come from Okinawan roots, it is natural that they will change a bit.

I know of two instructors from Okinawa that want to help keep their arts "pure" to the Okinawan roots and are willing to help.  Zenpo Shimabukuro (Shorin-Ryu) and Kiyohide Shinjo (Uechi-Ryu) come to mind.

Sorry if this strays from topic a bit.

R. McLain


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 8, 2006)

Greetings to all,
John, the answer to your question is that, like many of the Okinawan variants of what we now know as Tang Soo Do, Shoshin Nagamine learned from those of the first and second generation from Itosu. He had a much deeper understanding of the system of Kata/Hyung that we train in today.

As we have discussed many time, the further from the root system we get, the less depth we have. Much of what I teach in my seminars was derived from Motobu-Ha S h i t o-Ryu. When we see Ha in the name of a Japanese or Okinawan system this means influenced by. Choki Motobu learned directly from Itosu and taught as Itosu taught him. Motobu then taught his own students. His senior student was Kokuba. Kokuba inherited the art from Motobu and passed it on to his son, Shogo Kuniba (the family name changed when they moved to Japan, as the kanji was read differently). Out of respect for Motobu, Kokuba changed the name of the system that he had received to Motobu-Ha S h i t o-Ryu. Shogo Kuniba moved to the USA and one of my instructors, Garner Train became a student of his. 

When I began training with Garner Train in 1997 he showed me first hand what had been handed down thru this lineage, and gave much deeper understanding to all that we do in Tang Soo Do Hyung. 

Among the Bunkai lost in Tang Soo Do is the use of the Retracting Hand (Hiki-Te). We focus on the execution of the primary hand, but were never shown anything with the other hand. In reality, in most applications, it is the other hand that had the most important part in the technique, but until you see it and work with it you will not visualize it or be able to use it

Simply watching a person perform hyung/kata on video or in person will not help if we dont know what is happening between the techniques. A perfect example of this is in Pyong Ahn Som Dan; after the opening Choong-Dan Yup Mahk Kee we perform Ha Dan Mahk Kee and Ahnesu Pakoro Mahk Kee simultaneously with both hands. I have seen this combination technique explained as a block and a strike, two blocks at the same time, etc, but when Sensei Train showed me the Bunkai taught in the Motobu-Ha system it was like the old V-8 juice commercial, and I found myself hitting myself in the head and asking myself; why didnt I see that before? The answer was simply, as stated in the past; when you are taught with a specific line of vision, and that is all that there is, your mind doesnt travel in that direction. When you are given a new way to see things your mind will develop the vision and it will all be clear from that point forward.

It isnt that this is Rocket Science; its just seeing technique from a different vantage point. Once you see it, everything will change and you wont have to ask; what is this for? You will see it for your self. Its like learning a new language. Once you understand what the words mean, you are on your way, but learning what the words means is only the beginning if you truly want to communicate with those who were raised with that language. You also have to learn about sentence structure and intent. It is easy to get yourself in trouble speaking to a foreigner in his/her tongue, but not understanding how they will perceive the statement that you want to make

We have learned the Hyung of Tang Soo Do from those who never learned the sentence structure (application). They had to figure out what this foreign art was about without the guidance of those who knew.

Let me know when we can get together Your school or mine I will share these things with you.


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!


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## Makalakumu (Dec 10, 2006)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Among the Bunkai lost in Tang Soo Do is the use of the Retracting Hand (Hiki-Te). We focus on the execution of the primary hand, but were never shown anything with the other hand. In reality, in most applications, it is the other hand that had the most important part in the technique, but until you see it and work with it you will not visualize it or be able to use it
> 
> Simply watching a person perform hyung/kata on video or in person will not help if we dont know what is happening between the techniques. A perfect example of this is in Pyong Ahn Som Dan; after the opening Choong-Dan Yup Mahk Kee we perform Ha Dan Mahk Kee and Ahnesu Pakoro Mahk Kee simultaneously with both hands. I have seen this combination technique explained as a block and a strike, two blocks at the same time, etc, but when Sensei Train showed me the Bunkai taught in the Motobu-Ha system it was like the old V-8 juice commercial, and I found myself hitting myself in the head and asking myself; why didnt I see that before? The answer was simply, as stated in the past; when you are taught with a specific line of vision, and that is all that there is, your mind doesnt travel in that direction. When you are given a new way to see things your mind will develop the vision and it will all be clear from that point forward.


 
Hiki-te is something that we practice in my dojang.  This is what makes most of the joint locks and throws in our curriculum possible.

See this thread.

Regarding the subject of this thread, I'm skeptical as to whether some of the changes to various kata by various "Masters" had any martial meaning whatsoever.  For example, if you were to practice the effective application of Pyung Ahn Sam Dan's opening move, how would that change how you performed that technique when performing the kata?


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 10, 2006)

Hi John,
The opening movements of Pyong Ahn Som Dan work great as they are (the way we do it), with regard to the upper body movement. I would most likely NOT do them with my feet together at any time in practical application.

I have much to do today, so I must keep it short for now...


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## robertmrivers (Dec 13, 2006)

Greetings all

I have really enjoyed the revival of a desire to understanding the many "missing links" in Tang Soo Do. I have conducted several seminars now with Dojang interested in learning what was (intentionally) left out of the transmission of Okinawan Karate when the art made its way to Mainland Japan and then on to Korea. 

As it has  come up here, I hope to offer some input to help you all on the way. However, it is impossible to convey anything substantial in a written post. You really have to have someone who has trained extensively in these ancient ways show you. It is not a matter of watching a few Jujutsu techniques or Judo techniques (the Bunkai to kata are not standard Judo waza as depicted in the above posted videos) and then putting them to the kata. The kata have set techniques and once they are learned there are a set of variables that have to be internalized to maximize understanding of the forms. 

Hiki Te, while it is a milestone when people understand that the "pulling hand" is as important as the punching hand, is only the beginning of understanding (maybe Green Belt). It is actually the crossing hands that takes one past the concept of "pulling hand. Then there are principles like front-side back-side, changes in timing, distance, height, and position.

Once this is understood, terms like findi, tuite, bunkai, chitiki, and kyusho can be better understood.

One has to look at the "means" of Okinawan karate since the beginning of the first Sho dynasty in Okinawa. Di (the old term for karate) is not meant to throw someone down and then hit them or pin them and is not meant to put someone in a wrist lock to control them. The purpose is to end the fight as quickly as possible. With this mindset, you will truly appreciate that Judo or Jujutsu is not completely applicable to Karate. Karate has its own "Jujutsu-Like" locks but the purpose of them is completely different than that of Jujutsu. 

My seminar series for the Tang Soo Do practioner is going to start up again in January. My main teaching point is that you DO NOT have to change the forms you are doing and I do not want to convert people. Tang Soo Do has the framework for serious training already there. Just let me know. I'd love to come out and meet you guys ( and gals). The dojang I have already worked with are enjoying a knowledge base that goes way beyond standard Tang Soo Do curriculum.

Tang Soo cannot be fully understood without fully understanding the methods with which they came from 1500 years ago. The problem is, just as many Tang Soo teachers do not want to admit that they don't know everything, many Okinawan teachers do not want to show students "outside" of their circle the secrets of their art for fear it will be exploited. I personally come to appreciate the drive many of you have to learn the truth and the dojang I have worked with truly respect what is being taught and are making efforts to preserve these traditions. 

If you have any questions, feel free to ask, though they are easier answered in person. I really hope this is not perceived as presumptious. You all are asking a lot of the right questions, but your answer base is coming from other Tang Soo practitioners. There are Okinawan stylists out there who can help you and want to help you.

Sincerely

Rob Rivers

www.virginiakempo.com


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## mtabone (Dec 15, 2006)

Hello.

With all due respectwhile I appreciate your gesture of offering to help us Tang Soo Do practitioners, since you are of a style other then Tang Soo Do, as you have said an Okinawan practitioner

Only Master Penfil is a martial artist of various martial arts background, and I believe his previous martial art is Japanese /Okinawan, and he was taught the bunki of the forms that comprise much of the Tang Soo Do syllabus. So, if I were to have a seminar in my dojang, and it was ok with my instructor, it would have to be with Master Penfil.

And after having had some experience with Sabanim Penfils understanding, I feel I would be hard pressed to find someone who truly understands the Tang Soo Do side and the origins side of hyungs/form. 

I do not mean this in a rude way or in an insulting way, I am just stating my observations.

Yours in the Arts,

Michael Tabone


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## robertmrivers (Dec 15, 2006)

No offense taken my friend. Get the information any way you can.

However, with all due respect... one doesn't have to do tang soo do to be able to teach the principles of Okinawan karate to a tang soo do practitioner. TSD kata come from the Okinawan forms. I absolutely know the way that the Tang Soo Do forms are performed. I teach several concepts to bridge the gap including why the cat foot stance (for example) was changed to back stance in Shotokan and in turn taught this way in TSD. That particular change completely changes the art in so many ways we could spend a weekend just on that.  

Master Penfil is certainly qualified to introduce TSD to the differences in techniques between the forms of Koreas and Okinawa. However, I am sure he can't be everywhere at once and I offer myself as just another person willing to share (as I said earlier, most aren't too hip on sharing).

The instructor Master Penfil mentioned in his previous post is also my Jujutsu teacher and a fellow Motobu Ha practitioner. The revelation Master Penfil had on just that one technique is available to everyone for every single movement in every TSD form you know. 

I didn't start with karate and move onto other things. I have been studying Okinawan Karate for 20 years non-stop. The offer still stands. Plus I'm free... changing perception is what makes it worthwhile for me. My sincere regards to Master Penfil for helping like-minded martial artists in bridging the gap with our TSD cousins.

Regards,

Rob

Robert M. Rivers, Renshi, 5th Dan, Dai Nippon Butokukai


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## Makalakumu (Dec 15, 2006)

robertmrivers said:


> It is not a matter of watching a few Jujutsu techniques or Judo techniques (the Bunkai to kata are not standard Judo waza as depicted in the above posted videos) and then putting them to the kata. The kata have set techniques and once they are learned there are a set of variables that have to be internalized to maximize understanding of the forms.


 
I just wanted to addess a few points here...

1.  There was a 6th dan in Shorin Ryu that used to post on MT.  He claimed that there was direct connection between Minamoto Ryu Jujutsu and Okinawan Karate.  Apparently, some of the samurai had been guests of the royal family and they shared many of their teachings.  Thus, I would say that if a particular move in a hyung looks like a Judo throw, it may very well have been meant to be just that.

2.  In our school, we have a set number of throws in our system.  These throws come right out of our hyung.  In the videos that were posted, the throws were presented in their basic form, outside of the context of the hyung.  We practice the mechanics of our throws like this before we work them into various applications, because the mechanics of actually performing a throw are very complex.  

Other then that, I agree with the spirit of what you were saying.  I just wanted to clarify and add a couple of things.


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## robertmrivers (Dec 15, 2006)

Actually...

The first king of the first Sho dynasty in Okinawa, Sho Hashi, is recorded in the Japanese annals as being a distant relative of the Minamato (Satsuma) family. This is what the Japanese used as their authority to officially take over Okinawa in 1609. 

However, there is speculation as to whether the Japanese used a "glitch" in paperwork to mold this situation to their benefit (Read Kerr, Okinawa, History of an Island People). The Minamoto family arts became what is known today as Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Judo is not Daito Ryu. Now, the concepts of Daito Ryu very similarly resemble Motobu Ryu (the Okinawan Imperial art) and when you see them done side by side you can see that there may have been an influence. Thus, a lot of the Motobu Ryu influenced indigenous Okinawan Karate...not Japanese Jujutsu. They are different because some of the concepts are different.

Back on point... we need to look at this historically. 

Tang Soo Do comes from Shotokan. Any reference to the application of the TSD Hyung comes from Shotokan or TSD practioners who studied Shotokan. The issue is that the transmission of the information from the Okinawans to the Japanese was incomplete...therefore, the throws that a TSD practioner is using to define the movement in a Hyung is not the truest application. It is a pretty darn good guess and it shows a great ability to visulaize that which is not there in the open to see, but, unfortunately, it is not that easy.

BTW...I was not meaning to say you are using Judo to explain your TSD. Your use of Japanese names for Judo techniques and doing the techniques straight out of the Kodokan handbook are the only reason I mentioned that. But I understand now why you all did them like that. Sorry if you took that the wrong way...I probably wrote it the wrong way...

Judo is not Jujutsu. So, associating Judo techniques founded in the early 1900's to a possible Minamoto influence on Okinawan martial arts in 1609 is not logical. Having trained with Motobu Chosei Soke, whose family has been the keeper of the imperial martial art (Motobu Ryu) in Okinawa since the Satsuma invasion, I know full well what the history of the development of kata, techniques that pre-date the formation of kata, the principles for which they were founded upon, and the way that these techniques appear in the kata. There is a lot of Jujitsu-like techniques in karate (tuite), but they do not resemble the throws of Judo or more recent Jujutsu applications that you will find. 

It is these principles that you really need to get into in order to understand your Hyung more completely. And, obviously, you have to embrace the history and culture from which these arts come from. 

Anyway, I certainly can't explain everything here. This is why I fully support going places to share this information. It can be much more eye-opening in person.

I truly appreciate you all at least entertaining what I have to say. My dojo door is always open.

Rob


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## Makalakumu (Dec 16, 2006)

Rob...et all

I've trained in jujutsu and judo and my teacher has trained in aikijutsu and judo.  Thus, we attempt to apply what we know to what we see in the kata.  I don't think we've done such a bad job considering that the transmission of the knowledge was incomplete.  

Here is what would really help, however.  

The internet is really a powerful tool and MT is a great site with wonderful software.  Mr. Hubbard (the owner of this site) has dedicated a huge amount of server space for the sharing of knowledge...and this includes the posting of videos...which is extremely easy with vBulletin software.  Take a look at my hosted forum.  I have more videos posted in there then anywhere else on MT.  And I think that you can see quite a bit about what we are all about by viewing this videos.  

With that being said, I would like to see some video of the kata applications and concepts that you, or anyone else, has in mind.  I realize that there are somethings that just need to be felt in person, but I also realize that some of this stuff CAN be transmitted via the internet.  Even that little bit, would be great help for all of us TSD practicioners.  

If you, or anyone else, is willing to do this, I will walk you through a step by step process on how to get it done.  

The bottom line is that unless alot of us see some of what you are talking about, the need for it isn't going to explode in our consciousness like it should.  

I see the need and now I'm focused on trying to fill it.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Dec 16, 2006)

Greetings to all,

Rob, 
Are you based in Arizona?

I will be in Arizona during the weekend of January 20th for a family function. If you are in Arizona I would like to set some time aside for us to get together and share.

Please contact me directly at: 248-561-5700


Ill look forward to your call


Mike T.,
How are you and everyone at the TSDMGK doing? Please send my best to everyone there for a Happy and Healthy holiday season!!!

John,
How are things up your way? How is Sabomnim Nelson doing? Please pass along my regards to him, and to everyone there as well!!!


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil


TANG SOO!!!


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## Makalakumu (Dec 16, 2006)

Master Penfil

Here is the link for Mr. River's school.

http://www.virginiakempo.com/

If you guys could get together, that would be an interesting meeting of minds.  

PM me if you are interested in seeing some of the vids that we have made.  I made a dvd of them and I would very much like to mail it to you.

As far as Master Nelson's health is concerned, the procedure went fine and he is recovering.  My teacher and I will be in contact with you to attempt to reschedule our event.

Tang Soo!!

John


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## robertmrivers (Dec 16, 2006)

Master Penfil et al

I am not in Arizona but would sincerely fly out (I have friends there) if it were to meet you all for such an occasion. But, I am gong to be in Houston for a work related course that week. 

I am in Virginia. If any one is in the area which would include Washington DC and Southern Maryland for business or pleasure we can meet anywhere and like I said my home would be open to any of you.

I hope to meet you all soon.

Rob


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## robertmrivers (Dec 16, 2006)

Sorry, I also forgot, I will also put some of these concepts to video and we can figure out how to post them. Great idea. Naturally, we can't put all of our top secret sorcery up there, but we can put some interesting things to focus on up there.

Talk to you all soon. If I don't get back to you before the holidays have a great Christmas.

Rob


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## Makalakumu (Dec 16, 2006)

robertmrivers said:


> Sorry, I also forgot, I will also put some of these concepts to video and we can figure out how to post them. Great idea. Naturally, we can't put all of our top secret sorcery up there, but we can put some interesting things to focus on up there.
> 
> Talk to you all soon. If I don't get back to you before the holidays have a great Christmas.
> 
> Rob


 
Rob

PM me and I'll walk you through how to post vids on MT.

John


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## robertmrivers (Dec 19, 2006)

I have started on the video. I have considered doing this for a while and I appreciate the suggestion to actually do it. I will produce a clip covering a specified topic. I'll do this every two weeks or so to see what sort of interest there is. My first topic will be _dachi kanki _or the change in stances. It will definitely be more than "move your foot from here to here". 

I will try to have this done this weekend. Upnorth...I look forward to your assistance in posting it.

Happy Holidays

Rob


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## Makalakumu (Dec 19, 2006)

Rob

When you tape, make sure that you split it up into small sections.  Under one minute if possible.  This will aid people who are on dial up and it will help with sending and posting.

upnorthkyosa


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 10, 2007)

Since the subject of the retracting hand was brought up, I thought I'd put in my two cents on that.

I practice at an ITF school, so my training is traditional. Master C.S. Kim goes to train at his old school, back in Korea, every so often, just to make sure that what he teaches his instructors (and what they teach us) stays correct. 
One of those things, which has been pounded into me since I was about a red belt, was the concept of both hands moving together. 

When we do pal po ki (in-place punches, if my spelling's off), even, the hand that punches can only go as fast as the one that comes back. This becomes especially important in blocks. In one-step sparring drills, there are a few where the defender's first move is a block in a fighting stance (back stance?). But without the other hand pulling back fast, it's harder to get any waist power into the block. That's why you have to use the trunk of the body to make the block effective. 

It's like in that Karate Kid movie, where they had the hand drums with strings and balls on each side. As one hand goes out, the other has to come back. That, combined with landing hand and foot together, is how to get power behind techniques.

In response to Master Jay's comment about the opening of pyong ahn sam dan (the first move is turning your head to look!), I too just recently learned what exactly that move is - blocking two consecutive double-punches (a la Bassai Deh). I agree that a practical application wouldn't be expected to have you with feet together, but I'm sure there's another reason behind it...I'll have to ask my sa bom nim.

Back on the subject of how the forms changed, that's an interesting subject, though I don't think it changes how I practice at all. But I was first introduced to this idea by the video game Tekken 4, wherein the main character, Jin Kazama, is shown performing what to me was a lousy version of pyong ahn sa dan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_z9rnHcjHM). If that's really how they teach it in the style he's supposed to have studied (some form of karate?), it's a bit laughable. 

Anyway, I know I'm not an instructor, but all I'm saying here is what my sa bom nim has pounded into me. Hope it's helpful.


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