# Tips for Sanchin



## J. Pickard (Oct 12, 2021)

Hello all. I recently started a study of Sanchin kata, both Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. I myself am a Taekwondoin but love all martial arts and have also studied Shotokan for several years. I have a close friend who is 7th dan Uechi Ryu that I have been training and discussing the kata with. While she is beyond fluent in Uechi Ryu she cant give much feedback for the Goju version. So I was just looking for some pointers; things to keep in mind, common beginner mistakes, areas to focus on, etc. I have mostly learned Goju Sanchin from books and Youtube. I am really loving this kata and learning a lot about muscle and breathe control from it. 
TIA


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## seasoned (Oct 12, 2021)

A very simple kata but the depth of learning goes deep into the heart of Okinawan GoJu. The version of Sanchin developed by the style's founder, Chojun Miyagi serves primarily as a catalog of basic principles. It evolved by adding hand (go) closed-handed, strength building movements to soft (ju) open-handed techniques imported from China.
Miyagi taught Sanchin as the first kata and considered it so important that he required students to train exclusively in it for many years. When preformed correctly, Sanchin harmonizes both the soft and hard components of structure, movement, and breathing.
Sanchin kata is a "feeling kata" which is impossible to learn from videos. In the learning process it is said that it is easier to go from soft to hard then to learn the kata hard then try to incorporate and blend the softer elements. 
It is this slow learning process of blending the Go with the Ju that can be very tedious in the beginning, but fruitful as we start the process of developing this blending and applying it to all the kata moving forward.....        
In the end once blended, all techniques will encompass the "GoJu"...


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Hello all. I recently started a study of Sanchin kata, both Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. I myself am a Taekwondoin but love all martial arts and have also studied Shotokan for several years. I have a close friend who is 7th dan Uechi Ryu that I have been training and discussing the kata with. While she is beyond fluent in Uechi Ryu she cant give much feedback for the Goju version. So I was just looking for some pointers; things to keep in mind, common beginner mistakes, areas to focus on, etc. I have mostly learned Goju Sanchin from books and Youtube. I am really loving this kata and learning a lot about muscle and breathe control from it.
> TIA


I highly recommend the book "The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power" by Chris Wilder.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 12, 2021)

Uechi's Pangai Noon version is likely much closer to the way Higaonna Kanryo (who learned it in China) taught it.  Miyagi made several major changes to Higaonna's Sanchin:  Eliminating all the turns and shortening the kata, changing most of the open hand thrusts to closed fist punches, stressing the dynamic tension in the movements and using harder internal breathing.  

Can't say for sure Miyagi's reasons for the changes, though they have the effect of focusing and concentrating the kata's core concepts.  So, while shorter than Uechi's version, it is as physically taxing, maybe more so.  It is possible to injure oneself if done full force if not well conditioned at an advanced age.  It's the version my style does and is taught as an advanced form at the brown belt level.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 12, 2021)

My advice would be stick with the Uechi version because you can get direct instruction in that one.  You do not need to collect multiple versions of a kata, especially if you are learning one of them from videos.


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Hello all. I recently started a study of Sanchin kata, both Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. I myself am a Taekwondoin but love all martial arts and have also studied Shotokan for several years. I have a close friend who is 7th dan Uechi Ryu that I have been training and discussing the kata with. While she is beyond fluent in Uechi Ryu she cant give much feedback for the Goju version. So I was just looking for some pointers; things to keep in mind, common beginner mistakes, areas to focus on, etc. I have mostly learned Goju Sanchin from books and Youtube. I am really loving this kata and learning a lot about muscle and breathe control from it.
> TIA


As a taekwondoin, have you thought about taking some of the same alignment ideas Sanchin teaches and extrapolating it to your hyung?  It won't be exactly the same due to the different in range within TKD vs. Goju-ryu, but you will find plenty of crossover that might give you a different way of running your forms.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Uechi's Pangai Noon version is likely much closer to the way Higaonna Kanryo (who learned it in China) taught it.  Miyagi made several major changes to Higaonna's Sanchin:  Eliminating all the turns and shortening the kata, changing most of the open hand thrusts to closed fist punches, stressing the dynamic tension in the movements and using harder internal breathing.
> 
> Can't say for sure Miyagi's reasons for the changes, though they have the effect of focusing and concentrating the kata's core concepts.  So, while shorter than Uechi's version, it is as physically taxing, maybe more so.  It is possible to injure oneself if done full force if not well conditioned at an advanced age.  It's the version my style does and is taught as an advanced form at the brown belt level.


We teach it first, but most isshinryu dojos do not.


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Can't say for sure Miyagi's reasons for the changes, though they have the effect of focusing and concentrating the kata's core concepts.  So, while shorter than Uechi's version, it is as physically taxing, maybe more so.  It is possible to injure oneself if done full force if not well conditioned at an advanced age.  It's the version my style does and is taught as an advanced form at the brown belt level.


My Sanchin has turns in it.  The one without turns is newer and stems from Miyagi Sensei sitting down in his later years while watching class or giving instruction.  The students ceased turning because they wanted to face Miyagi the whole duration of the kata.  At least that is the story I heard.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 12, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My advice would be stick with the Uechi version because you can get direct instruction in that one.  You do not need to collect multiple versions of a kata, especially if you are learning one of them from videos.


Sound advice.  


seasoned said:


> Sanchin kata is a "feeling kata" which is impossible to learn from videos.


While this is true for all kata to some extent, it is especially true for Sanchin. Concepts such as outward power projection driven primarily by breath (ki) rather than sequential muscular usage cannot be experienced, taught or learned visually.


Bill Mattocks said:


> I highly recommend the book "The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power" by Chris Wilder.


Can you share a gem or two you found particularly enlightening or interesting?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Sound advice.
> 
> While this is true for all kata to some extent, it is especially true for Sanchin. Concepts such as outward power projection driven primarily by breath (ki) rather than sequential muscular usage cannot be experienced, taught or learned visually.
> 
> Can you share a gem or two you found particularly enlightening or interesting?


From memory, extended explanation of how to take conscious control of muscle groups, using descriptions that make sense. Not simply breathing but how to line the spine and torso up in concert to breathing. How to weld yourself to the floor. There's a tutorial at the end on a semi-related topic, how to build your own makiwara and how to properly use it. Also how to construct and use chishi to build muscle that enhances sanchin training.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 12, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> My Sanchin has turns in it.  The one without turns is newer and stems from Miyagi Sensei sitting down in his later years while watching class or giving instruction.  The students ceased turning because they wanted to face Miyagi the whole duration of the kata.  At least that is the story I heard.


I put a laughing emoji to rate your post, but didn't mean it offensively.  There are many "stories" in karate of one kind or another.  This one has a couple problems:

I'm sure Miyagi would verbally (or physically) admonish his students to look in the proper direction and change _their_ execution before changing _his_ kata to suit them. Also, it's hard to think he would change a form for any reason besides a practical and functional reason, and that, only after much thought.

The changes in the kata were not made in his later years based on the following timeline.  It is said that Isshinryu's founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo, studied with Miyagi when he was in his early-mid 20's, giving a year of about 1930-34.  At that time Miyagi was just in his early-mid 40's and the name "gojuryu" was just being thought about or brand new.  Shimabuku was taught the changed version of Sanchin at that time, so any changes had to have been made earlier.


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## J. Pickard (Oct 12, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> As a taekwondoin, have you thought about taking some of the same alignment ideas Sanchin teaches and extrapolating it to your hyung?  It won't be exactly the same due to the different in range within TKD vs. Goju-ryu, but you will find plenty of crossover that might give you a different way of running your forms.


I have actually found a lot of benefit from training the Uechi version so far in various aspects but mostly improved overall body alignment. I can see why this Kata, despite its apparent simplicity, is so widely regarded in Okinawan Karate. It has quite a depth of things to learn from it and I feel I am barely scratching the surface.


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## J. Pickard (Oct 12, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> My advice would be stick with the Uechi version because you can get direct instruction in that one.  You do not need to collect multiple versions of a kata, especially if you are learning one of them from videos.


I began exploring the Goju version to see what it has to offer in addition to the Uechi version. If it's theyre I want to learn from it even if its just at surface level.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 12, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I began exploring the Goju version to see what it has to offer in addition to the Uechi version. If it's theyre I want to learn from it even if its just at surface level.


I would be interested in hearing what you find, in contrast to what you are taught in the Uechi version.


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## seasoned (Oct 12, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> My Sanchin has turns in it.  The one without turns is newer and stems from Miyagi Sensei sitting down in his later years while watching class or giving instruction.  The students ceased turning because they wanted to face Miyagi the whole duration of the kata.  At least that is the story I heard.


My sanchin also has turns. Your story above is close to the way I was told. Miyagi felt it was disrespectful for students to turn their back on him while doing Sanchin kata. Through my GoJu lineage Miyagi, Yagi, and Shinjo the turns were returned. It was my understanding that the turns held the concept of whipping power. As you step across to the left at 190 degrees the pivot and snap of the hip generated a whip like feeling into the left middle block. The (2) turns are the only place in sanchin where this whipping concept takes place...


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I put a laughing emoji to rate your post, but didn't mean it offensively.  There are many "stories" in karate of one kind or another.  This one has a couple problems:
> 
> I'm sure Miyagi would verbally (or physically) admonish his students to look in the proper direction and change _their_ execution before changing _his_ kata to suit them. Also, it's hard to think he would change a form for any reason besides a practical and functional reason, and that, only after much thought.
> 
> The changes in the kata were not made in his later years based on the following timeline.  It is said that Isshinryu's founder, Shimabuku Tatsuo, studied with Miyagi when he was in his early-mid 20's, giving a year of about 1930-34.  At that time Miyagi was just in his early-mid 40's and the name "gojuryu" was just being thought about or brand new.  Shimabuku was taught the changed version of Sanchin at that time, so any changes had to have been made earlier.


No offense taken, I wasn't there.  That said the story I heard isn't that Miyagi himself changed the form.  His students did, out of respect maybe, maybe for other more logical reasons.  But your point is well-taken.  Did Shimabuku Sensei state anywhere that his Sanchin without the turns is as Miyagi taught him?


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## dancingalone (Oct 12, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I have actually found a lot of benefit from training the Uechi version so far in various aspects but mostly improved overall body alignment. I can see why this Kata, despite its apparent simplicity, is so widely regarded in Okinawan Karate. It has quite a depth of things to learn from it and I feel I am barely scratching the surface.


I was inspired almost a decade ago by that video of Morio Higaonna from Goju-ryu and Gushi from Pan Gai Noon, and a Crane master all doing their all version of Sanchin at the same time.  I traveled to Taiwan and studied a bit of crane gong fu to see the connection between my karate and either an ancestor art or at the very least a cousin art.  Very illuminating.  Those crane guys had very developed breath power.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 12, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> No offense taken, I wasn't there.  That said the story I heard isn't that Miyagi himself changed the form.  His students did, out of respect maybe, maybe for other more logical reasons.  But your point is well-taken.  Did Shimabuku Sensei state anywhere that his Sanchin without the turns is as Miyagi taught him?


I have not heard of any such statement.  I know that his videos show him doing Sanchin kata without turns, and that's how we do it.  I've seen quite a few different Sanchin katas done, and I've enjoyed watching them; I have tried several, with and without turns.  I think they all have utility and none are 'wrong' or 'right'.  Several of his first-generation American students are still alive and teaching, I suppose someone could ask them if they know the answer to that question.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 12, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> Did Shimabuku Sensei state anywhere that his Sanchin without the turns is as Miyagi taught him?


Since Shimabuku's sanchin is the same as the Miyagi goju version often seen, it seems logical that he did learn it that way from Miyagi.  It would be a gigantic coincidence that multiple students of his would effect the exact same changes. It is true that masters have often modified kata they learned to fit their own style, but in this case, it appears not.

I just found a video (1960ish?) of Yamaguchi Gogen, a goju student of Miyagi, doing Sanchin.  _The sideways turns are missing_, but he does do the turn to the rear and then back to the front.  Miyagi may have instituted multiple changes over the years, or the "Cat Man" may have changed it himself after Miyagi's death.

Isshinryu's katas were performed with minor changes (by Shimabuku) over the course of years, so there are various (_slightly _different) versions out there, depending when his students received instruction.  Subsequent masters have also changed a move or two.

Contrary to what many non-TMA (and some TMA) practitioners believe, katas have evolved over the decades/centuries and are not "stuck" in the past.  As Headmasters of their system they have the right to change/improve it based on their extensive experience and understanding of the form and techniques.


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## Buka (Oct 13, 2021)

The first dojo I ever watched a class in was a Ueichi-Ryu school.(George Mattson) The first class I saw, some of the guys were sparring, others were off to the side doing Sanchin. The first dojo I ever trained in was a Greek Goju-Ryu school. (George Gonis) I learned Sanchin. Then I trained with a guy that used to be Ueichi, and he taught me Sanchin. There were slight differences, but I don’t remember what they were anymore.

The only reason I left the Goju school was it wasn’t practical for me to get to. It was before I had my first car and had to take public transportation, took an hour and forty minutes each way.

But I really liked Sanchin. And since those days I still use part of it, one of the Dachi stances.  (I forget which one)

When I’m on a bus or train, I’ll always offer my seat to a lady or an elderly person. When I stand up, I always stand in a slight Dachi stance, with slightly looser hips. No matter if the vehicle does a lot of stop and go, or fast turns, I never lose my balance because of that stance.

When I was a sophomore in college we had to write a ten page paper as part of our English final. I wrote it on Karate, particularly Sanchin. I got an A. I sure wish I had saved that paper, we could all laugh our ashes off reading it. I had a whole sixteen months experience in the Arts at that time, which, you know, made me an expert.


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## seasoned (Oct 13, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> seasoned said:
> Sanchin kata is a "feeling kata" which is impossible to learn from videos.





isshinryuronin said:


> While this is true for all kata to some extent, it is especially true for Sanchin. Concepts such as outward power projection driven primarily by breath (ki) rather than sequential muscular usage cannot be experienced, taught or learned visually.


I follow your thinking to a certain extent but to clarify, to see if we are on the same page:

Sanchin kata is a feeling kata pertaining to structure, movement and breath. Put all of these together and they equate to the movement of power strictly, with no bunkai value. 

Kata on the other hand is the result of applying the principles of sanchin kata into the application of bunkai.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 13, 2021)

seasoned said:


> I follow your thinking to a certain extent but to clarify, to see if we are on the same page:
> 
> Sanchin kata is a feeling kata pertaining to structure, movement and breath. Put all of these together and they equate to the movement of power strictly, with no bunkai value.
> 
> Kata on the other hand is the result of applying the principles of sanchin kata into the application of bunkai.


Nicely said. Some say Sanchin is karate.


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## seasoned (Oct 13, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Nicely said. Some say Sanchin is karate.


That was the feeling I was getting and needed to clarify. I ran into this over the years where people would take it all out of context and completely miss the the true value of the great gift of sanchin....


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## seasoned (Oct 13, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I have actually found a lot of benefit from training the Uechi version so far in various aspects but mostly improved overall body alignment. I can see why this Kata, despite its apparent simplicity, is so widely regarded in Okinawan Karate. It has quite a depth of things to learn from it and I feel I am barely scratching the surface.


This is for J. Pickard as well as anyone that feels the need to give input. Sanchin kata is an internal kata dealing with what is happening on the inside as opposed to the outside of the body. I understand that structure, movement and breath which are tenants of the kata are visible moves or techniques that need to adhere to proper form. But it would make no difference what style Martial Art one studies because it's what is happening on the inside that makes all the difference and brings it all together. Structure, movement and breath are what creates the free flow of power unimpeded from the inside out.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 13, 2021)

seasoned said:


> I follow your thinking to a certain extent but to clarify, to see if we are on the same page:
> 
> Sanchin kata is a feeling kata pertaining to structure, movement and breath. Put all of these together and they equate to the movement of power strictly, with no bunkai value.
> 
> Kata on the other hand is the result of applying the principles of sanchin kata into the application of bunkai.


A thoughtful analysis, but I will add some clarification beginning with your _last_ point.  It is mostly correct.  There are techniques, however, IMO that do not follow all of the Sanchin concepts as they may be based on other, more external methods of power.

Your first statement is also correct, except for the last three words, "no bunkai value."  Sanchin _does_ has effective bunkai application as do other kata.  If fact, all _the moves in Sanchin can be found in other kata,_ so there is nothing unique in that regard.

The fact that Sanchin is widely used as a form to practice breathing, rooting and so forth (and perhaps has been modified to maximize these elements as discussed earlier), does not mean it can't be performed like any other kata with speed, snap and combat effectiveness (give it a try).

On the flip side, other kata (at least in part) can be performed with the tension and internal breathing like Sanchin (though due to most other kata's length, would be quite exhausting, but I've done it).

Sanchin is one of the oldest kata still practiced.  It's very possible it was originally longer and performed just like other kata.  On the other hand, it's also possible it was designed _primarily_ as a conditioning and breathing internal form. I have no idea. But as it exists today, it serves to develop one's inner core and the other elements we've discussed and has many benefits.

These thoughts on the subject just represent my personal beliefs/opinion.


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## seasoned (Oct 13, 2021)

seasoned said:
I follow your thinking to a certain extent but to clarify, to see if we are on the same page:

Sanchin kata is a feeling kata pertaining to structure, movement and breath. Put all of these together and they equate to the movement of power strictly, with no bunkai value.

Kata on the other hand is the result of applying the principles of sanchin kata into the application of bunkai.



isshinryuronin said:


> A thoughtful analysis, but I will add some clarification beginning with your _last_ point.  It is mostly correct.  There are techniques, however, IMO that do not follow all of the Sanchin concepts as they may be based on other, more external methods of power.


I'm not sure what external methods of power you are referring to.


isshinryuronin said:


> Your first statement is also correct, except for the last three words, "no bunkai value."  Sanchin _does_ has effective bunkai application as do other kata.  If fact, all _the moves in Sanchin can be found in other kata,_ so there is nothing unique in that regard.


This may be the part where many styles begin to separate in their thinking. In Okinawan GoJu, sanchin is the first kata taught and is the prelude to all other kata. The internal power which is developed through the sanchin concepts of structure, movement and breath are no different then the form that is used in weight lifting. (bad form bad lift. As far as bunkai value in sanchin that is left for the kata to follow.


isshinryuronin said:


> The fact that Sanchin is widely used as a form to practice breathing, rooting and so forth (and perhaps has been modified to maximize these elements as discussed earlier), does not mean it can't be performed like any other kata with speed, snap and combat effectiveness (give it a try).


No comment.....


isshinryuronin said:


> On the flip side, other kata (at least in part) can be performed with the tension and internal breathing like Sanchin (though due to most other kata's length, would be quite exhausting, but I've done it)


In Okinawan Goju there is some sanchin tension used in kata to emphasize some particular set of techniques. But, it all originated from sanchin..


isshinryuronin said:


> Sanchin is one of the oldest kata still practiced.  It's very possible it was originally longer and performed just like other kata.  On the other hand, it's also possible it was designed _primarily_ as a conditioning and breathing internal form. I have no idea. But as it exists today, it serves to develop one's inner core and the other elements we've discussed and has many benefits.


Possible.......I can agree.


isshinryuronin said:


> These thoughts on the subject just represent my personal beliefs/opinion.


Thank you for the opportunity to share back and forth. I follow you on MT and always enjoy your input on many issues.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 14, 2021)

Ah.... Sanchin kata.... a favourite of mine 

Some really great insight and info provided already throughout the thread, really enjoyed all that.

Really great you're exploring the kata @J. Pickard . I've found it so incredibly valuable, and it continues to teach me the more I train it.

It's always been more a foundational kata, one that imbues really important principles of alignment, structure, posture, correct tensions and projection of energy, and I love how even though it's such a minimalistic kata (on the surface), there is sooo much to take into account as you do it.

I've learned a few versions, my first one was from all my time in Kyokushin, and it was done very, very hard. There was literally so much tension that the body had to be stiff as a rock while the arms moved.

I wasn't the biggest fan of this version, but I could see the value in it. And in black belt testings you had four people surrounding you. Not so much testing your alignment and structure etc, but just hitting you very hard and having to take it, and continue. Which in a way tests your structure hehe, but more tour perseverance and unwavering determination.

But other versions I learned allowed more body and hip movement and efficient transfer of energy. I would suggest going through the kata, and each time you do it just focus on ONE aspect each time. It may be the breathing, it may be keeping a nice clean vertical axis and posture as you move and transition, or the real sense of rootedness and connection to the ground (feeling it all the way through to your pinky toes), or the feeling of every movement coming out and returning to your centre/hara-supported technique... there is so much haha. But it really is a matter of learning in the doing of it.

But definitely get the stance and structure right, and go from there.

I recently did an art piece piece depicting what this kata means to me and what I feel it teaches, thread here if interested:






						Sanchin kata art piece
					

Heya guys, a few months ago I did my contribution to a particular martial arts organisation zine. I'm really so happy with what came out here, and something I hope to embody in this rough time, and thought I would share it here.  It's a drawing of how I see Sanchin kata; very much a kata that...



					www.martialtalk.com
				




Ps. @Buka , I also do the stance on public transport too


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## _Simon_ (Oct 14, 2021)

Also, I'm curious about you guys are well versed in your version of the kata, what is your take on the tension levels throughout it?

Do you practice it or feel it should be:
- max tension all the way (only releasing briefly upon the stepping)
- more progressive cascading/crescendo of tension as you reach the apex of the technique (like a wave travelling through)
- not even so much thinking about the muscular tension, but letting the tension just come naturally when it needs to
- something else?


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## jmf552 (Oct 14, 2021)

Don't do Sanchin if you are constipated. Don't ask me why I say this. The memory is still too painful...


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 14, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Also, I'm curious about you guys are well versed in your version of the kata, what is your take on the tension levels throughout it?
> 
> Do you practice it or feel it should be:
> - max tension all the way (only releasing briefly upon the stepping)
> ...


I have done multiple versions of sanchin. My current revision has a more Chinese influence.
I started with the Goju version, spent decades on the Uechi version. As time past I found more similarities between them and most differences were superficial. 
Everyone's path is different. I am only relating my own journey here.
In my younger years I loved the max tension you could apply in Goju. The tension builds strength and muscle independence. Allowing you to contract single muscles. Everyone can flex a biceps, but to flex a quad is like brushing your teeth with the wrong hand.. As I studied Uechi I found the tension found in Goju to be excessive and counter productive to the overall concept of fighting. Muscles need to be loose to punch and tension restricts power. But......a good punch needs loose in some places and tension in other places. Ah ...that muscle independence comes into play here.
Uechi has a tendency to fall into a robotic cadence. I see a lot of Robot Ryu.  Tension is localized in places throughout the kata that it doesn't belong.
As I evolved in my art, Sanchin tension is flowing like ocean waves that are in constant motion. While that sounds corny and dramatic, it's a visual that best conveys the feeling.
My own research into Sanchin history has lead my conclusion to be that Goju and Uechi Sanchin have a common Ancestor. I have found no other Chinese version with the same directional turns.  In old Uechi , there was no preset number of steps and strikes. It was determined by the individual and the space allotted. There are many Chinese versions with back stepping and I think Miyagi modified his kata to model the Chinese after his trip to China. This removed the turns and closed the fists.
From my experience the Chinese are more like a fluid jazz where Japanese are ridgedly structured like classical music.  I believe the amount and type of tension should be determined by the individuals stage of development along their journey.


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## seasoned (Oct 14, 2021)

This is one of the best images of sanchin feeling kata. It shows the tract of muscle tension....


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## J. Pickard (Oct 14, 2021)

Wow, thanks everyone. A lot of great insight and discussion here on this Kata and a lot of things for me to consider. The more I study it the more I like it, there is so much to learn from it that seamlessly applies to my TKD training. I wish the online TKD community was this helpful about things.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 14, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Also, I'm curious about you guys are well versed in your version of the kata, what is your take on the tension levels throughout it?
> 
> Do you practice it or feel it should be:
> - max tension all the way (only releasing briefly upon the stepping)
> ...


The tenseness of the body upon impact.  Some use the term chinkuchi.  Tension rises as the muscle and bone come into alignment and peaks at the moment of (imagined) impact.  Then relaxes and releases for the next cycle.  This is my understanding of sanchin.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 14, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The tenseness of the body upon impact.  Some use the term chinkuchi.  Tension rises as the muscle and bone come into alignment and peaks at the moment of (imagined) impact.  Then relaxes and releases for the next cycle.  This is my understanding of sanchin.


While Bill and I practice the same style, there is some slight variation in forms (no problem) and my take on sanchin is a little different it seems.

Chinkuchi infers relaxation up to the point of impact and that's when the muscles tense.  My sanchin has 95% tension throughout _all_ the movements and adds the final 5% at the end.  So while chinkuchi sort of comes into play in a subtle way (mostly _locking the breath_ at the end of the move), basically there is max tension all the way through.  This _includes_ stepping to a slightly lesser degree. There is little relaxation.

Keeping all the body's muscles tight during the entire kata, while still allowing movement, is complex and takes _a lot_ of mental concentration and control over the muscle coordination.  For this reason I find sanchin exhausting both physically and mentally. It's work!  But it's good for you.

Here is a confession:  _I do not find sanchin fun_ at my age - but still do it because...because it's karate and part of my (unpaid) profession - and I love it.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 15, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> I have done multiple versions of sanchin. My current revision has a more Chinese influence.
> I started with the Goju version, spent decades on the Uechi version. As time past I found more similarities between them and most differences were superficial.
> Everyone's path is different. I am only relating my own journey here.
> In my younger years I loved the max tension you could apply in Goju. The tension builds strength and muscle independence. Allowing you to contract single muscles. Everyone can flex a biceps, but to flex a quad is like brushing your teeth with the wrong hand.. As I studied Uechi I found the tension found in Goju to be excessive and counter productive to the overall concept of fighting. Muscles need to be loose to punch and tension restricts power. But......a good punch needs loose in some places and tension in other places. Ah ...that muscle independence comes into play here.
> ...


What a great post, that's really helpful, thanks @hoshin1600 .

Yeah that's very interesting, and I tend to agree. I never understood the excess tension variety, and you simply can't move or create power very efficiently through excessive tension.

Some lines of thoughts that occurred to me regarding the super hard version:

It's possible that's not really even the point or focus of the harder version of the kata, and perhaps its primary mode of exploration is feeling that proper alignment structural integrity and developing a sense of rootedness and connection through your centre and into the ground. As well as developing that intimate connection with your body, and the ability to contract whichever muscle groups you choose. I found that many years of committed weight training also achieved this for me, so it was helpful going into Sanchin and exploring this in the "unweighted" movement of the kata.

And it's also possible the kata does have a focus of building strength in those voluntary intense contractions, but I am hesitant to say that that's the sole purpose of the kata.

And it is often said and it has been taught to me (and I'm sure we've all heard) that Sanchin kata represents the Go/hard and Tensho kata the Ju/soft. So in this light perhaps they are both meant to be contrasting explorations of those extremes. Or not extremes as such... but aspects.

However I do like your version, and the waves in the ocean visual/feel 100% clicks with me. I practice both types at home depending on the mood, but now lend more emphasis on a more natural Sanchin.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 15, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The tenseness of the body upon impact.  Some use the term chinkuchi.  Tension rises as the muscle and bone come into alignment and peaks at the moment of (imagined) impact.  Then relaxes and releases for the next cycle.  This is my understanding of sanchin.



Thanks Bill. Yeah that makes sense to me.



isshinryuronin said:


> While Bill and I practice the same style, there is some slight variation in forms (no problem) and my take on sanchin is a little different it seems.
> 
> Chinkuchi infers relaxation up to the point of impact and that's when the muscles tense.  My sanchin has 95% tension throughout _all_ the movements and adds the final 5% at the end.  So while chinkuchi sort of comes into play in a subtle way (mostly _locking the breath_ at the end of the move), basically there is max tension all the way through.  This _includes_ stepping to a slightly lesser degree. There is little relaxation.
> 
> ...



Ah that's really interesting, appreciate those thoughts on it that's very helpful.

It definitely is very complex and difficult to have that level control. I love that aspect of the harder version, and perhaps that's of really great value to those who just sort of tend to flop through and go through the motions of the kata without much thought or focus.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 15, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> While Bill and I practice the same style, there is some slight variation in forms (no problem) and my take on sanchin is a little different it seems.
> 
> Chinkuchi infers relaxation up to the point of impact and that's when the muscles tense.  My sanchin has 95% tension throughout _all_ the movements and adds the final 5% at the end.  So while chinkuchi sort of comes into play in a subtle way (mostly _locking the breath_ at the end of the move), basically there is max tension all the way through.  This _includes_ stepping to a slightly lesser degree. There is little relaxation.
> 
> ...


I don't mean to imply I'm flopping around like a rag doll during the kata. But no, I'm not as tense throughout as you're describing. I find sanchin relaxing and I'm 61 years old.


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## seasoned (Oct 15, 2021)

There has been some variation pertaining to the use of breath and muscle tension. Only speaking from my perspective the word tension could be very misleading. I've seen some use restrictive out breath to the point of turning red in the face. Also muscle tension to the point where they start to tremble a bit. Everything should be free flowing.....The lower body when stepping should be firm but not restrictive while moving, stepping quickly, keeping contact with the floor with an inward arc. Once in position grip the floor and lock down the body structure as you exhale with the tongue to the roof of your mouth. Add tension like you would squeeze water from a sponge building up but not squeezing it dry. Just some thoughts,  keep in mind this kata (sanchin) has been referred to as (3) year sanchin


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## seasoned (Oct 15, 2021)

seasoned said:


> There has been some variation pertaining to the use of breath and muscle tension. Only speaking from my perspective the word tension could be very misleading. I've seen some use restrictive out breath to the point of turning red in the face. Also muscle tension to the point where they start to tremble a bit. Everything should be free flowing.....The lower body when stepping should be firm but not restrictive while moving, stepping quickly, keeping contact with the floor with an inward arc. Once in position grip the floor and lock down the body structure as you exhale with the tongue to the roof of your mouth. Add tension like you would squeeze water from a sponge building up but not squeezing it dry. Just some thoughts,  keep in mind this kata (sanchin) has been referred to as (3) year sanchin


It has been said in earlier posts that sanchin kata contained no bunkai. To expand further on "no bunkai".... but, it does contain (principles of movement) that can be inserted into bunkai throughout the kata... Case in point, there is an old Chinese saying, "when the hands wage war above,  the legs are in turn waging war below".  Every step forward is a potential sweep or a strike to the shin as a disruptive move. This is why the stepping forward move in sanchin does so in an arc inward as it moves across to your stance. There are many principles of movement never explained because it would interfere with the base teachings of sanchin which are,  the transfer of power through (structure...movement...breath) and is enough to think about at that time.
Anyone that has ever trained in an Okinawan dojo, in Okinawa...... knows that questions are not allowed, just do and don't talk....Old school


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 15, 2021)

seasoned said:


> There are many principles of movement never explained because in would interfere with the base teachings of sanchin which are, the transfer of power through (structure...movement...breath) and is enough to think about at that time.
> Anyone that has ever trained in an Okinawan dojo, in Okinawa...... knows that questions are not allowed, just do and don't talk....Old school


Can't agree with this, if I'm understanding properly.  There is a lot to think about while doing sanchin, including movement.  Not sure what you're referring to re: movement that is not explained and that would interfere with the base teachings of the kata.  Are you saying the stepping interferes with the rest of the form as it's too much to think about?

My sensei spent many years studying in Okinawa and still visits yearly.  He has no problem asking questions and getting answers.  He has spoken with other masters there and seemed to me they were fairly open.  Now, _their_ masters, going back to pre WWII, that may be a different story.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 15, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> My sensei spent many years studying in Okinawa and still visits yearly.  He has no problem asking questions and getting answers.  He has spoken with other masters there and seemed to me they were fairly open.  Now, _their_ masters, going back to pre WWII, that may be a different story.


Timing is, I suspect, a key factor. Asking questions during class vs outside of class.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Hello all. I recently started a study of Sanchin kata, both Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu.


Is it true that the Uechi Ryu front kick use the toes as the contact point?


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## seasoned (Oct 15, 2021)

seasoned said:


> It has been said in earlier posts that sanchin kata contained no bunkai. To expand further on "no bunkai".... but, it does contain (principles of movement) that can be inserted into bunkai throughout the kata... Case in point, there is an old Chinese saying, "when the hands wage war above,  the legs are in turn waging war below".  Every step forward is a potential sweep or a strike to the shin as a disruptive move. This is why the stepping forward move in sanchin does so in an arc inward as it moves across to your stance. There are many principles of movement never explained because it would interfere with the base teachings of sanchin which are,  the transfer of power through (structure...movement...breath) and is enough to think about at that time.
> Anyone that has ever trained in an Okinawan dojo, in Okinawa...... knows that questions are not allowed, just do and don't talk....Old school





isshinryuronin said:


> Can't agree with this, if I'm understanding properly.  There is a lot to think about while doing sanchin, including movement.  Not sure what you're referring to re: movement that is not explained and that would interfere with the base teachings of the kata.  Are you saying the stepping interferes with the rest of the form as it's too much to think about?
> 
> My sensei spent many years studying in Okinawa and still visits yearly.  He has no problem asking questions and getting answers.  He has spoken with other masters there and seemed to me they were fairly open.  Now, _their_ masters, going back to pre WWII, that may be a different story.


What is your understanding of the inward arc stepping, while moving forward in sanchin?


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 15, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is it true that the Uechi Ryu front kick use the toes as the contact point?


The toe kick was common in Okinawan karate up to the WWII era, approximately. It is still taught in some traditional Uechi Ryu dojos, and can be _rarely_ seen elsewhere. While it may be still taught, I think it is a technique fading away as the makiwara conditioning to make it effective is such that few modern students are willing to undergo it - me included.

It is deadly due to the great penetration of a very small striking area.  I read an anecdote about an old, old time karate guy (can't come up with the name right now) who got in a fight on a staircase in a bar?  Anyway, he caught the opponent in the armpit with a toe kick which put him in the hospital and a couple weeks later resulted in his death.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 15, 2021)

seasoned said:


> What is your understanding of the inward arc stepping, while moving forward in sanchin?


The "half moon" or circular stepping is standard in most Okinawan karate.  The step is not particular to sanchin.  The leg tension and inward pointing foot position in the ending stance is the more unique feature in that kata.  During sanchin stepping (others may do it differently) I keep tension in my entire body and core while breathing in, allowing slight relaxation in the hips which then lock at the end of the step.

The step has several applications.  The main one I think is that it closes up and protects the groin as you step.  It is also useful to place your leg around the inside or outside of the opponent's as you step to check or buckle it, or for leverage in a takedown.

Other possible advantages are that your foot keeps contact with the ground as you step allowing you to feel the terrain, and the circular motion of the step allows you to flow and easily change direction midstep.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 16, 2021)

As well as those great pragmatic reasons, I also like to think of the inward arc steps in Sanchin (and even when moving in Zenkutsu dachi with the same slight arc) as tuning into the principle of everything comes into your centre and out of your centre. Whilst may seeming a bit ethereal, it makes alot of sense, and actually 'feeling' that and applying it to all technique makes a huge difference. But that's just my woowoo take on it ;D


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The "half moon" or circular stepping is standard in most Okinawan karate.  The step is not particular to sanchin.


CMA uses this foootwork to run the shin bone against the inside of opponent's leg to achieve a shin bite effect. I don't believe it exists in most of the Karate systems.


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## seasoned (Oct 16, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> The "half moon" or circular stepping is standard in most Okinawan karate.  The step is not particular to sanchin.  The leg tension and inward pointing foot position in the ending stance is the more unique feature in that kata.  During sanchin stepping (others may do it differently) I keep tension in my entire body and core while breathing in, allowing slight relaxation in the hips which then lock at the end of the step.


Excellent summation above!
 As a young man I learned sanchin at my first dojo back in 1967. My sensei Peter Musacchio, taught it as our first kata and the base for all future kata. As our base kata, sanchin covered all manner of "safe and protected movement" while at the same time teaching proper body structure and synchronization of breath with movement to tie it all together.


isshinryuronin said:


> *The step has several applications.  The main one I think is that it closes up and protects the groin as you step.* * It is also useful to place your leg around the inside or outside of the opponent's as you step to check or buckle it, or for leverage in a takedown.*


The above statement in *red* is the main principal that was taught while learning sanchin. The above part in* black* highlight was left for future kata bunkai teaching. Structure, movement and breathing were more then enough to grasp as a young white belt.     


isshinryuronin said:


> Other possible advantages are that your foot keeps contact with the ground as you step allowing you to feel the terrain, and the circular motion of the step allows you to flow and easily change direction midstep.


The above is also taught initially during the learning stages of sanchin. Anything past this initial sanchin learning process is saved for bunkai training within future kata training. 

isshinryuronin, it appears out path may be slightly different, which is within teaching style, but.... in the long run out destination is the same....


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## seasoned (Oct 16, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> As well as those great pragmatic reasons, I also like to think of the inward arc steps in Sanchin (and even when moving in Zenkutsu dachi with the same slight arc) as tuning into the principle of everything comes into your centre and out of your centre. Whilst may seeming a bit ethereal, it makes alot of sense, and actually 'feeling' that and applying it to all technique makes a huge difference. But that's just my woowoo take on it ;D


Kind of like contract and explode....


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is it true that the Uechi Ryu front kick use the toes as the contact point?


Yes that is true. Uechi uses the Sokusen kick.


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## J. Pickard (Oct 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Is it true that the Uechi Ryu front kick use the toes as the contact point?


The Uechi Ryu sensei I train with does use the toes to certain spots (inner thigh for one), and the ball of the foot to others. The top of the foot (instep) is used sometimes too for groin kicks. I'm not sure if that's all Uechi style or not though.


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