# Muscle training?



## SacredCoconut (Dec 3, 2012)

How important is muscle training in MA in this case karate?

I feel like i don't have much muscle strenght especially in arms and i'm small. I go to karate leasons twice a week and was wondering should i do more muscle training? If so do you think doing simple 2 set workout with out tools ones a days is enough. I'm reluctant to pay for gym, but doing more muscle training is kinda boring with out tools.

I don't have goal to get muscular body just balanced healthy body that allows to train MA better.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 3, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> How important is muscle training in MA in this case karate?
> 
> I feel like i don't have much muscle strenght especially in arms and i'm small. I go to karate leasons twice a week and was wondering should i do more muscle training? If so do you think doing simple 2 set workout with out tools ones a days is enough. I'm reluctant to pay for gym, but doing more muscle training is kinda boring with out tools.
> 
> I don't have goal to get muscular body just balanced healthy body that allows to train MA better.



In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with weight and resistance training for the most part.  However, much can be done by simply training in your martial art.  And 'boring' basics such as sit-ups and push-ups should not be discounted, they are quite effective.

Also, consider cardio-vascular training that increases your ability to provide bursts of energy without getting gassed too quickly.  Endurance can be as important as strength.

One last suggestion; don't confuse muscle with strength.  Many muscular people who start martial arts training eventually find that using their muscle as opposed to proper body mechanics is something that hurts them rather than helps them as they progress.  If you're not that muscular, you will have to learn properly to begin with, and that's not a bad thing.  True strength in martial arts comes from good body mechanics, and that does not depend entirely on muscle.  Most arts, I believe, teach this in one form or another.  Proper technique overcomes massive muscle quite often.  

Now, with the rare person who has both effective use of body mechanics AND are quite strong muscle-wise, that's a killer combination right there.  But of the two, I'd prefer the former over the latter if I could only choose one.


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 3, 2012)

I may have had some problems with the word choises as im not native english speaker. yeah i was asking is it important to have muscle and is just doing the muscle execises at leasons enough or is more needed. 

I have no problem with basics like sit ups, but doing more than 10-30 min can be boring with out tools. 

And thank you for info it was helpful


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 3, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> I may have had some problems with the word choises as im not native english speaker. yeah i was asking is it important to have muscle and is just doing the muscle execises at leasons enough or is more needed.
> 
> I have no problem with basics like sit ups, but doing more than 10-30 min can be boring with out tools.
> 
> And thank you for info it was helpful



Not a problem.  I understand that English can be tricky.

What I mean is this.  In most martial arts, the application of the techniques requires you to be able to call upon the resources of your body.  That does mean muscle, but it also means using that muscle effectively, using your balance, your speed, and involving muscle groups that you might not think are normally involved.  A punch, for example, can involve a lot more than the strength in your arm alone.  So muscle training by itself can teach you to rely on muscle instead of proper technique.  Good technique is better than lots of muscle.  Good technique with muscle also is a great thing.  If I had to choose one, it would  be good technique.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 3, 2012)

Just some food for thought, I weigh about 120-130 pounds. I am by no means muscular. However, I am fairly confident that I can beat a 'jacked' person with no formal experience in a fight (this confidence is not based on nothing. I don't go out picking fights, but I have been in a few with annoying jocks who picked on my friends in HS, and I won all of them). A 'jacked' person with fighting skills, well, that's a different story, but for me, stamina and technique are more important than just strength/muscle.


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## rickster (Dec 3, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> One last suggestion; don't confuse muscle with strength.  Many muscular people who start martial arts training eventually find that using their muscle as opposed to proper body mechanics is something that hurts them rather than helps them as they progress.



I know a few body builders who fit this description. A bud and I used to surprise them at the gym. "Paper Tigers" is what we used to call them


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## Blindside (Dec 3, 2012)

Many historical karateka used all kinds weight lifting practices to build up their muscle strength, try googling "hojo undo."  It was considered an essential part of the practice of karate.


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## Buka (Dec 3, 2012)

Start with a hundred pushups a day, done in sets to suit your fitness level. Work your core. This should be done daily, outside of your Martial class training.

Increase your pushups to five hundred a day by the end of year one. Work your core. Keep increasing every year. Pushups are not an arm exercise, they are an exercise in discipline. 

If a yearly breakdown seems out of reach, take up a new sport. Not trying to be cold here, just honest.


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## rframe (Dec 3, 2012)

It's all a matter of balancing many tools and assets.  Strength is good.  Speed is good.  Endurance is good. Agility is good.  Balance is good.  Technique is good.  Lacking any of these is a pretty serious weakness to a martial artist.  These are all things that must be developed with effort.  None will be developed very well in just two classes per week, so you need to develop habits to build these and other areas regularly.

If your question is about weight training, sure it can be helpful but would be low on my priority list.  I average a couple short circuits of weights each week.  I spend much more time doing functional fitness, calisthenics, isometrics, and the like, moving my body.  I build more "relevant" strength this way.

If doing a repetitive set of pushups and situps and squats gets boring, I dont blame you, I get bored too.... so if you're not doing one, I'd look at a DVD based HIT program.  They've already thought out the balance issues and it's more like attending a group session, good tips, good music, good motivation.  I do much better with a program like this than just having a list of exercises to go do.

As one example, I personally really like Georges St Pierre's RUSHFIT system.  It's not an overwhelming time commitment but is well balanced and gives you a great workout when you adjust your intensity, and the movements often have direct relationship to a martial artists needs.


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 4, 2012)

As continuation question if i'm just going to do predetermined amount of repeative training daily what would be good list of moves? I'm realy bad at making training for my self as i feel like i just don't know enough. Some HIT program could be nice as i would not need to.


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## Gentle Fist (Dec 4, 2012)

Depends on the martial art and your focus.  I train heavy on the side since I practice Judo and compete in the heavyweight divisions.  So when I am not training, I am either running or powerlifting.  

This topic has been discussed before in great detail so try doing  a search to see some of the earlier responses.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 4, 2012)

Apparently, I am being misunderstood.  Let me be more clear.

There is nothing wrong with weight or strength training.  Stronger is generally better.

HOWEVER, if you do not have proper body mechanics, being strong CAN be a liability, because you will tend to use your power to perform techniques, rather than align your body properly to generate power and ward off strikes.

If I had the choice between proper body mechanics and strength in martial arts, I would choose proper body mechanics.  And if I have to put them in order of importance to martial arts training, I would put body mechanics first, strength training second.

I believe it is infinitely preferable to first learn how to generate power, how to use your body correctly, and THEN, if desired or necessary, to add muscle.  Muscle added to proper technique will enhance your abilities greatly.

But muscle as a substitute for good body mechanics is not wise for martial arts training.  Muscle can and will fail.  Good body mechanics are yours for life.

That's my opinion on the subject.


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 4, 2012)

I did understand and it made me give up the idea of going to gym, but i still feel like i should do at least some training home. I was thinking like doing 50 sit ups, push ups and squats. (is there basic move i'm missing?)


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 4, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> I did understand and it made me give up the idea of going to gym, but i still feel like i should do at least some training home. I was thinking like doing 50 sit ups, push ups and squats. (is there basic move i'm missing?)



I wasn't suggesting giving up going to the gym.  I was suggesting that you make sure you're learning good body mechanics as you train in martial arts.  If you trust in your strength it will always let you down in the end.  If you trust in your training, it will not.

If you want an exercise to do at home that will assist you in every possible way, get a jump rope and spend ten minutes a day with it.  Challenge yourself to build up speed, endurance, and balance.  The simple jump rope may be the best tool ever invented for the martial artist or fighter.


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 4, 2012)

I may have worded it wrong. I alredy hesitated going to gym and your post made the chose easier. Rope is good one i havent thought (It would be nice warming up as well).


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 4, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> I may have worded it wrong. I alredy hesitated going to gym and your post made the chose easier. Rope is good one i havent thought (It would be nice warming up as well).



Understood, thanks.  Jumping rope is a classic exercise that offers many advantages.  It builds the cardiovascular system, helps the reflexes and it teaches timing.  It is infinitely variable; as you get better, you can go faster and challenge yourself more and more.  By doing 'tricks' with the rope, you can avoid boredom and also learn footwork, balance, and gain even more speed and timing.  Boxers have been doing it since the beginning, and it is just a great all-around training tool.  You never run out of the jump rope's capabilities, you can take it with you anywhere, and you can do it without a huge training space or a lot of preparation.

http://www.fightscope.com/fitness-endurance/skipping/


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## Blindside (Dec 4, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> As continuation question if i'm just going to do predetermined amount of repeative training daily what would be good list of moves? I'm realy bad at making training for my self as i feel like i just don't know enough. Some HIT program could be nice as i would not need to.



For some good varations on bodyweight workouts, try some of these:  

http://www.trainforstrength.com/workouts.shtml

Some of them require various gear, but at least three are straight bodyweight, have fun, they will kick you ***.


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## rickster (Dec 4, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Apparently, I am being misunderstood.  Let me be more clear.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with weight or strength training.  Stronger is generally better.
> 
> ...



I haven't misunderstood


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 4, 2012)

Blindside said:


> For some good varations on bodyweight workouts, try some of these:
> 
> http://www.trainforstrength.com/workouts.shtml
> 
> Some of them require various gear, but at least three are straight bodyweight, have fun, they will kick you ***.



Wow, I really like workout 1!   I may actually start trying that one soon, thanks!


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## rframe (Dec 4, 2012)

Blindside said:


> http://www.trainforstrength.com/workouts.shtml



Great site, thanks for sharing.


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## Kaygee (Dec 5, 2012)

I started to do a lot of Kettlebell and Medicine Ball workouts. They really work your core and there are so many different things that you can do with these two tools alone, that you can switch up your routine often, which decreases the chance of boredom! And then, you can also institute things like crunches, pushups, and other variations of core training like "the mountain climber" or "twisting pistons" into your routine to really shake things up!

It cost me $100 total to get a 25lb kettlebell and a 20lb non-bouncing medicine ball and the results I have been blessed with are awesome so far! I mean, I am not getting huge, but my strength and endurance has increased ten fold and I have a lot of "lean muscle" now. The fat that has gone away from my belly and hips has allowed my kicks to go higher and I get them off quicker as well.

Just some food for thought. 

Oh, and I take Karate (Tang Soo DO) too! And I know it was said many times before, but karate *IS* more about proper mechanics than strength. This stuff was made so smaller guys like me and you could survive a fight against a larger opponent......but it doesn't hurt to be healthier, stronger, and have high endurance! 

I always told people that if I was ever to get into a confrontation, I would just run.......if the guy is not in as good as shape as I am, the worst that can happen to him, is for him to catch me......because I am not going to be out of breath when he does.....he will though.....

In the rare case that the other guy is trained himself (which shouldn't be the case because most trained guys won't start fights), then I would hope *mechanics and technique > strength*

Which is usually the way it winds up anyway!


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## PoolMan (Dec 6, 2012)

You don't need to fork over a lot of money for a gym. Focus on bodyweight exercises; squats, pushups, chinups, sit-ups, leg raises, dips, etc. Once you get strong enough you can progress to single limb exercises if you want; one-legged squats, one-armed pushups, etc. There are literally hundreds of bodyweight exercises you can do. Also try making your own Bavarian sandbag at home. You can find videos on how to do this and exercises to do with one on youtube.


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## mcmoon (Dec 10, 2012)

First if you can get a gym membership then thats what you need to do. Then you need to get on a proven strength routine such as starting strength.  If it is not possible to get a gym membership get a book called convict conditioning.  It is based around bodyweight exercises with a progression scheme to make it more challenging.

I for one find many tma neglect fitness.  While technique will almost always be more important than strenth it should not be neglected.

P.S. If you have to workout days when you have martial arts then workout before class.  This way you will pre exuast the muscles and while in class will actually have to focus more on the technique rather than strength.


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 10, 2012)

There is only one gym close enough and i don't want to pay for what it offers, there seems to be starting new gym so i may take a look at it.

One thing that made me wonder was what muscles does push ups and pull ups train and do i need to do both of them?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 10, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> There is only one gym close enough and i don't want to pay for what it offers, there seems to be starting new gym so i may take a look at it.
> 
> One thing that made me wonder was what muscles does push ups and pull ups train and do i need to do both of them?


Which types of pushups and pullups are you talking about? in general, pushups do chest/arms, and pullups do either biceps or triceps, lats and i believe the trapezius, but I may be wrong. But it depends on the grip/type that you're doing it may work out different/more muscles. 
And yes, you do need to do both.


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 10, 2012)

Information about which muscles it trains was more of curiosity. If need to do both, then i have to get something to do pullups with.


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## rickster (Dec 10, 2012)

A gym is not as need as the drive and determination (as well as someone qualified to get one going)


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## punisher73 (Dec 11, 2012)

SacredCoconut said:


> Information about which muscles it trains was more of curiosity. If need to do both, then i have to get something to do pullups with.



To put it in simplest terms.  Pushups train the upper body muscles that are required to move away from the body (ie: punching) and pullups will train the upper body muscles that will move towards the body (ie: pulling something towards you to off balance them).

I recommend for beginners with no prior athletic or martial training to start with bodyweight exercises for a couple of reasons.  First, since they are new to training they will get benefit from any type of training program and bodyweight is still a good way to go. Second, it helps you to get familiar with your own body and how it moves and what muscles are involved in what movements.

What martial art do you study?  Even investing in some adjustable dumbbells you can mimic movements from your style with weightlifting techniques that are similar.  A really good book to get some ideas on how traditional karate was trained is "The Art of Hojo Undo" by Michael Clarke.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Art-Hojo-...UTF8&qid=1355236832&sr=8-1&keywords=hojo+undo

Like others that have come before us, use your imagination and make tools to help you train and make it fun and/or exciting.  For example, come up with 6 bodyweight exercises and assign a number to them.  Roll the dice and see what number comes up.  Then have a deck of poker/playing cards and turn one over and you have to do that many repetitions (for example, Ace can be a 1 or any number you want, the Jack 11, Queen 12, King 13).  You can also use just the deck of cards and have four exercises (one for each suit; clubs, spades, hearts, diamonds) and then flip each card and do that number of each exercise and try to go through the whole deck or a certain number of cards.

Another variation I have used with the deck of cards to to train forms/kata in between the exercises.  For example, flip a card and do the number of that exercise and then go through a kata.  Flip another card, do the exercises and then either do the same kata or a different one.  You can also do a certain basic or basic combination.  Do the exercises, and then do 10 repetitions of a basic block and punch/kick combo.  Then flip another card and do the same combo or a different combo.  Again, this helps simulate being tired and exhausted in a fight and how your technique works.

Also, look online for free stuff.  There is lots of it.  Here is a site on how to work up to 100 pushups and also progressions for other bodyweight exercises as well.
http://hundredpushups.com/#sthash.R1qK9FTz.dpbs


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## PictonMA (Dec 24, 2012)

Hojo Undo (chiishi, nigiri kame, ishi sashi, tan)
Kettle Bell
Medicine Ball
Skipping Rope
Undulation Rope


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## SacredCoconut (Dec 24, 2012)

Well now that this got up again, i thought i could ask your opinion on this work out. It's close to one i alredy made for myself, but it seemed more refined, just got to make chair dips and change cardio little for now at least. I will buy stretching book to add to it.
http://bar-barians.forumotions.net/...ody-look-lean-using-only-bodyweight-exercises


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2012)

Gentle Fist said:


> I practice Judo and compete in the heavyweight divisions.  So when I am not training, I am either running or powerlifting.



Running will make your feet to float. It's much easier to take down a runner than to take down a non-runner. It will reduce your ability to resist any throw. 

In the ancient time, the "low stand wide step fast walking - upper leg to be parallel to the ground" was used to replace the running training. 

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/3669/lowwalk.jpg

Today, people may have ignored this issue.


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## Blindside (Dec 25, 2012)

Do your "ancient times" include places like Greece?
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 25, 2012)

Blindside said:


> Do your "ancient times" include places like Greece?
> Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express



The "low stance walking" was used in training quite commonly in the far east. I don't know it was used in Greece back in the ancient time or not.


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