# MMA vs TaiChi



## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

The backstory is that prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC.

It ends the way you expect.






My question is this; Are internal styles like TaiChi really for fighting, or are they actually just a form of moving meditation? Also, what's going on with all of these new vids of softer styles trying to fight with MMA guys?


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## hoshin1600 (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> what's going on with all of these new vids of softer styles trying to fight with MMA guys?


is it possible that MMA is just now reaching the general Chinese audience ?   



Hanzou said:


> Are internal styles like TaiChi really for fighting,


i know people are going to disagree but i do not think the way they have evolved is practical for fighting.
even martial arts in general has changed in China over the last 50 -100 years.  i had heard from top okinawan karate-ka that visited china in the 1970's  that conversations with the Chinese martial artists had said that there was a time when the real fighting arts had to go underground due to political controll.  the Government pushed the "new" wushu versions of arts that were visually pleasing VS effective.  the older fighting styles have for the most part died out. the new generation are more into poke"mon Go on their Iphone  and have no interest in martial arts.


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

Oh for god sake here we go again. Mods may as well get ready to lock this up now


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## Tez3 (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The backstory is that prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC.



and everyone made a nice pile of money especially the bookmakers.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The backstory is that prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC.
> 
> It ends the way you expect.
> 
> ...


Let's say as a taijiquan guy and you are a mma guy first thing is I wouldn't fight you in a ring or with rules or anything actually hell what I would use most likely wouldn't look like taijiquan to you. so we meet face to face you square off in some boxing whatever stance and I stand there you go to punch me or rush me or whatever and I shoot you. I then explain as you lay there bleeding how I used wuji and silk reeling to pull the gun out the rotation of my dantian to move the holster. Or say I use a bat against your knee cap and as you lay there with a broken knee explain how that is in the taiji sword routine. 
My point is I am not interested in which style is better don't care I am interested in stopping a threat by any means.


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## DanT (May 9, 2017)

Some points:

1. The guy obviously wasn't that good at tai chi if he can't block straight punches and be able to side step.

2. His only defence was to backpedal 

3. Years of tai chi form training and he still doesn't have enough balance to stay on his feet.

In conclusion the guy wasn't very good at tai chi. Kudos to him for stepping up tho.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Also, what's going on with all of these new vids of softer styles trying to fight with MMA guys?


What you are seeing is something that we have talked about numerous times in here.  Martial artists who train and *believe* they can fight even though they do not *train *to fight.  Anyone who has ever done sparring can see from the beginning that the Tai Chi guy never did any sparring at the level of the match that he got into.  His body language showed that he lack the understanding of the situation he was in.  His body movement reminded me of how students in my class move when they spar for the first time.

A reporter interviewed the MMA guy later on and one of the things he said is that Tai Chi is real but only 1 out of 10 schools is the real Tai Chi.  The rest are fake.  He seems to be upset with the McDojo's of Chinese Kung Fu who mislead people into thinking that they can use what they are learning to fight even though they never train to actually fight with it.  A reporter also interviewed the self proclaimed tai chi master and the tai chi master said that had he really used real tai chi that the MMA fighter would have died 7 days later.  MMA point proven
Here's the link to that video.  Jet Li sums it up very realistically.  We have said as much here.  By the way, the mindset that "real kung fu" is no longer needed is something that is shared with a lot of other Chinese.  They make the assumption that because of guns that there is no need to learn how to physically fight. I have a classmate from China who says the same thing and every time he says it, I want to punch him in his mouth and ask him how much did a gun help him.  I'm not sure why they ignore all of the evidence where someone had to physically defend themselves.  Even armed police have to physically defend themselves at times, long enough to where they can either reach their gun or restrain the attacker.

This is the interview that I referenced




__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=435107583490659
			




The videos below show a different body language about the situation they are in.


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

Fact is there are terrible mma fighters out there that traditional guys could easily destroy. For example Jason Thacker off tuf 1 do you really believe he'd last against a high level martial artist of any style.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

DanT said:


> Some points:
> 
> 1. The guy obviously wasn't that good at tai chi if he can't block straight punches and be able to side step.
> 
> ...


I think it was the Tai Chi's guy's arrogance or assumption of his ability that got him into the ring.  My entire thing is that if a person is going to lose a Martial Arts fight then lose by actually doing the techniques from the system that you train.  Don't get out there and lose without having done any techniques that you use in training.  The Tai Chi guy didn't even have basic fighting footwork down.  He backpedaled for almost the full length of the fighting area.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Fact is there are terrible mma fighters out there


The only difference is that terrible MMA fighters don't go and make spectacles of themselves claiming that they can do super human things.  The same cannot be said of terrible Traditional Martial Artist who claim how powerful they are in a fight even though they never train to fight.


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only difference is that terrible MMA fighters don't go and make spectacles of themselves claiming that they can do super human things.  The same cannot be said of terrible Traditional Martial Artist who claim how powerful they are in a fight even though they never train to fight.


No they just and get themselves seriously injured by being deluded enough to think they're good enough to compete


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## Steve (May 9, 2017)

DanT said:


> Some points:
> 
> 1. The guy obviously wasn't that good at tai chi if he can't block straight punches and be able to side step.
> 
> ...


If it's this simple to test one's skill....


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the interview that I referenced
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It would seem that these types of exhibitions are having a disastrous effect on traditional CMAs. People see this and believe that TCMAs are simply relics of a bygone era, and that modern martial arts are simply more applicable for self defense and other purposes. The person you wanted to punch in the face reminds me of this peculiar situation.

I remember reading several articles about traditional CMA fading out and MMA/Bjj moving in to fill the void. It would seem that fights where traditional chinese MAs are man-handled easily by MMA and other modern methods are simply hastening the decline of traditional Chinese martial arts.


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## jobo (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The backstory is that prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC.
> 
> It ends the way you expect.
> 
> ...


he didn't put up as much resistance as an untrained but reasonably handy chap might of


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

So it appears that this isn't close to being over. It would seem that several Tai Chi masters are coming forward to challenge this guy because he said Tai Chi is garbage;

MMA fighter dismantles Tai Chi master in 10 seconds, ignites a martial arts firestorm

So we got more MMA vs TCMA coming up.

What's funny is that this guy is supposedly self-taught.


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> So it appears that this isn't close to being over. It would seem that several Tai Chi masters are coming forward to challenge this guy because he said Tai Chi is garbage;
> 
> MMA fighter dismantles Tai Chi master in 10 seconds, ignites a martial arts firestorm
> 
> ...


So it's obvious he's not legitimate and didnt learn properly so he isn't a true representation of the style which makes this whole thing completely pointless


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So it's obvious he's not legitimate and didnt learn properly so he isn't a true representation of the style which makes this whole thing completely pointless



A self taught MMA guy beating a bunch of Tai Chi masters doesn't look good for traditional Chinese martial arts.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> It would seem that these types of exhibitions are having a disastrous effect on traditional CMAs. People see this and believe that TCMAs are simply relics of a bygone era, and that modern martial arts are simply more applicable for self defense and other purposes. The person you wanted to punch in the face reminds me of this peculiar situation.
> 
> I remember reading several articles about traditional CMA fading out and MMA/Bjj moving in to fill the void. It would seem that fights where traditional chinese MAs are man-handled easily by MMA and other modern methods are simply hastening the decline of traditional Chinese martial arts.


That is an accurate description of him in regards to martial arts.  I'm sure he has the same mentality in other areas as well, where he thinks things of the past are insignificant and useless in today's context.  Western society tend to be the total opposite where methods and techniques of the past are significant to the present and future.

It appears that they get a lot of fake martial arts there where people teach it for a living and not really know what they are doing.  To them it's just a business.  Sort of like the Mcdojos in western society.



Hanzou said:


> It would seem that several Tai Chi masters are coming forward to challenge this guy because he said Tai Chi is garbage


I hope they have spent some time sparring against other systems or sparring in general. They will fail too if they haven't sparred before.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> A self taught MMA guy beating a bunch of Tai Chi masters doesn't look good for traditional Chinese martial arts.


That's not what is actually making the situation look bad or good.  The fact that he's beating a bunch of people who claim to be dangerous with Tai Chi is the problem.  Had the Tai Chi "Master" boasted about his abilities then this video would be just an ordinary fighting video.

After they had the fight, The news discovered that the Tai Chi "Master" was self-proclaimed there was no record of his formal training.  Either that or the school that actually trained him disown him after his performance.   lol


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> A self taught MMA guy beating a bunch of Tai Chi masters doesn't look good for traditional Chinese martial arts.


Actually it's a better fighter beat a weaker fighter. Had it been taijiquan master beats self taught fighter would you then post taijiquan beats mma?


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## Steve (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Actually it's a better fighter beat a weaker fighter. Had it been taijiquan master beats self taught fighter would you then post taijiquan beats mma?


I'd love to see it.  Show us a tai chi master beating a wrestler.  Or anything.

What I think is likely though is that the tai chi master would.quickly identify gaps in his martial training.   Like Dan t saw above.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

If you watch the video basically the taijiquan guy fell down and the other guy jumped on him which happens also in mma fights.

So is this really a video of mma fighter beating a taijiquan guy or a fighter who slipped and fell and another guy jumping on him after he fell?


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## Xue Sheng (May 9, 2017)

before we continue this we may want to review some MT rules

*1.10.2 No Art bashing. 
*
No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> I'd love to see it.  Show us a tai chi master beating a wrestler.  Or anything.
> 
> What I think is likely though is that the tai chi master would.quickly identify gaps in his martial training.   Like Dan t saw above.


How about as I said taijiquan master shoots wrestler and explains how he used each of the five energies of taijiquan principles when he drew his gun and fired. Or how about as I said stabbing a guy and then explaining how that was in the form? Do you understand Steve as a guy who practices taijiquan I don't have to fight Fair or empty handed I can easily drop a brick on someone's head and say its align with taijiquan and others who do taijiquan would agree.


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Actually it's a better fighter beat a weaker fighter.



I'm afraid it goes a bit deeper than that.

Imagine if a self-taught backyard wrestler challenged and started beating Bjj black belts. That would really sully the reputation of Bjj as a martial art, and the community at large would be adversely effected.

The situation in China is especially interesting because of its martial art history and the recent push of MMA and Bjj in that country. Just look at the media attention this has gotten in China. I've never seen a versus video that got headlines and articles like this one did in China.

There's a growing consensus that traditional arts are just for show, and stuff like this isn't helping.



oaktree said:


> If you watch the video basically the taijiquan guy fell down and the other guy jumped on him which happens also in mma fights.
> 
> So is this really a video of mma fighter beating a taijiquan guy or a fighter who slipped and fell and another guy jumping on him after he fell?



Watch the video again. He fell down after getting socked in the face twice.

Where I'm from, we call that combo the "2 piece and a biscuit".


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

Basically all this thread is is the op going around saying ooh look how amazing mma is and look how rubbish everything else is. We've all heard his biased ignorant fanboyish opinions multiple times.


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's not what is actually making the situation look bad or good.  The fact that he's beating a bunch of people who claim to be dangerous with Tai Chi is the problem.  Had the Tai Chi "Master" boasted about his abilities then this video would be just an ordinary fighting video.
> 
> After they had the fight, The news discovered that the Tai Chi "Master" was self-proclaimed there was no record of his formal training.  Either that or the school that actually trained him disown him after his performance.   lol



Nah, I read that he had founded some style called "Thunder Tai Chi" or something, and he was an instructor/grandmaster. I suppose the two had an internet spat, and ended up challenging each other. After the fight, the Tai Chi guy said that if he had used "real Tai Chi" he would have killed the MMA guy in seconds or something.

Truth of the matter is if the ref didn't stop that beatdown, the Tai Chi guy would have ended up in the hospital or worse.

In any case, this MMA guy is now challenging more people, and a few supposedly legit masters are stepping up, so this could get interesting. I hope it spreads and we start getting semi-pro/pro MMA fighters and Traditional grandmasters involved. I think Chinese MA needs something like this to better their arts overall.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'm afraid it goes a bit deeper than that.
> 
> Imagine if a self-taught backyard wrestler challenged and started beating Bjj black belts. That would really sully the reputation of Bjj as a martial art, and the community at large would be adversely effected.
> 
> The situation in China is especially interesting because of its martial art history and the recent push of MMA a





Hanzou said:


> I'm afraid it goes a bit deeper than that.
> 
> Imagine if a self-taught backyard wrestler challenged and started beating Bjj black belts. That would really sully the reputation of Bjj as a martial art, and the community at large would be adversely effected.
> 
> ...


Leg buckled he fell was it a punch or his back pedaling who knows we have seen it in mma fights as well so either taijiquan fighters have similar results in mma fights as in one wins one looses and get punched or slip or mma fighters suck like taijiquan fighters your argument can't have it both ways.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Basically all this thread is is the op going around saying ooh look how amazing mma is and look how rubbish everything else is. We've all heard his biased ignorant fanboyish opinions multiple times.


Yep that is exactly right lol


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Leg buckled he fell was it a punch or his back pedaling who knows we have seen it in mma fights as well so either taijiquan fighters have similar results in mma fights as in one wins one looses and get punched or slip or mma fighters suck like taijiquan fighters your argument can't have it both ways.



It was 2 punches in combination. You can watch the film in multiple angles. 

BTW, just a taste of how big this is getting over in China;

Chinese tycoon offers $1.45 million to tai chi warrior who can defeat MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong  | Taiwan News


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Nah, I read that he had founded some style called "Thunder Tai Chi" or something, and he was an instructor/grandmaster. I suppose the two had an internet spat, and ended up challenging each other. After the fight, the Tai Chi guy said that if he had used "real Tai Chi" he would have killed the MMA guy in seconds or something.
> 
> Truth of the matter is if the ref didn't stop that beatdown, the Tai Chi guy would have ended up in the hospital or worse.
> 
> In any case, this MMA guy is now challenging more people, and a few supposedly legit masters are stepping up, so this could get interesting. I hope it spreads and we start getting semi-pro/pro MMA fighters and Traditional grandmasters involved. I think Chinese MA needs something like this to better their arts overall.


Why doesn't he go challenge people in Chen village then they will he happy to take him on it in fact he can challenge Chen Bing and Chen ziqiang in fact why don't you go watch Chen ziqiang on YouTube and see real taijiquan.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> It was 2 punches in combination. You can watch the film in multiple angles.
> 
> BTW, just a taste of how big this is getting over in China;
> 
> Chinese tycoon offers $1.45 million to tai chi warrior who can defeat MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong  | Taiwan News


Saw it saw leg slip too as he was running away so your argument is moot on if it was a punch of he slipped


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

See ya op


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Why doesn't he go challenge people in Chen village then they will he happy to take him on it in fact he can challenge Chen Bing and Chen ziqiang in fact why don't you go watch Chen ziqiang on YouTube and see real taijiquan.



Actually someone from Chen Tai Chi has challenged him, so we should see this real soon, especially now since serious money is involved.



oaktree said:


> Saw it saw leg slip too as he was running away so your argument is moot on if it was a punch of he slipped









He was running away because he was getting swarmed. Two of the punches connected, one of them right in his jaw, and down he went.


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> It was 2 punches in combination. You can watch the film in multiple angles.
> 
> BTW, just a taste of how big this is getting over in China;
> 
> Chinese tycoon offers $1.45 million to tai chi warrior who can defeat MMA fighter Xu Xiaodong  | Taiwan News


Basically a bunch of sad rich boys with to much time on their hands


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## Buka (May 9, 2017)

My two cents - I like doing Tai-Chi a helluva lot more than I like doing MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> I'd love to see it.  Show us a tai chi master beating a wrestler.  Or anything.
> 
> What I think is likely though is that the tai chi master would.quickly identify gaps in his martial training.   Like Dan t saw above.


 In the case of Tai Chi, it's the fighter not the system.  Most people know Tai Chi for being exercise and not actually a fighting system.  Most people practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not as a fighting system.  It's not enough to just do the forms to be able to use it in competition or for self defense.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> If you watch the video basically the taijiquan guy fell down and the other guy jumped on him which happens also in mma fights.
> 
> So is this really a video of mma fighter beating a taijiquan guy or a fighter who slipped and fell and another guy jumping on him after he fell?


The guy in the video did not train to use Tai Chi for self-defense or sparring environments.  This was clear at the start.  There's no need to defend him or the art of Tai Chi because it wasn't a good representation of what Tai Chi competitive or self-defense focused practitioners do.  It's better to call it out for what it was than to defend him as if he was a good representation of Tai Chi applications.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> He fell down after getting socked in the face twice.


He fell down because he had really bad footwork.  We have seen competitors from various styles including Tai Chi who have better foot work than that.  We have even seen untrained fighters with better footwork.  This guy is just not a good representation of Tai Chi or Chinese martial arts in general.  This fight wouldn't have gotten the publicity that it's getting had he not boasted and claimed himself as a "Tai Chi Master."    It's no different than someone claiming to be a Master in BJJ and then show up and perform horribly against someone who trained themselves to fight.

When someone beats another who claims to be an expert or master, then it damages the perception of the defeated system.  The problem with TMA is that many people try to make excuses for the practitioner instead of just coming out and saying the truth.  The fighter had no fighting or sparring experience and because of that lost the fight in a disgraceful way after claiming to be a Master.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Nah, I read that he had founded some style called "Thunder Tai Chi" or something, and he was an instructor/grandmaster. I suppose the two had an internet spat, and ended up challenging each other. After the fight, the Tai Chi guy said that if he had used "real Tai Chi" he would have killed the MMA guy in seconds or something.
> 
> Truth of the matter is if the ref didn't stop that beatdown, the Tai Chi guy would have ended up in the hospital or worse.
> 
> In any case, this MMA guy is now challenging more people, and a few supposedly legit masters are stepping up, so this could get interesting. I hope it spreads and we start getting semi-pro/pro MMA fighters and Traditional grandmasters involved. I think Chinese MA needs something like this to better their arts overall.


He probably had an internet spat because he was boasting about something he couldn't actually do.  Hence his comments "if he had used "real Tai Chi."  That statement alone is evidence of a person's arrogance and not their training.  If his Tai Chi was really that dangerous then why would he even accept the challenge? 

I hope the fake CMA Masters will stop answering the call.  As for Chinese MA the longer things like this goes on, the more important it will be for a realistic CMA practitioner to show an accurate display of CMA when trained for the purpose of fighting.   For me if I accepted a challenge fight then everything is fair game, if I break my opponent then I just break my opponent.  There's no way I'm going to care for my opponent's safety because I know he's not going to care about mine.  The only thing I would hold back on are the things that cripple.


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## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> He fell down because he had really bad footwork.  We have seen competitors from various styles including Tai Chi who have better foot work than that.  We have even seen untrained fighters with better footwork.  This guy is just not a good representation of Tai Chi or Chinese martial arts in general.  This fight wouldn't have gotten the publicity that it's getting had he not boasted and claimed himself as a "Tai Chi Master."    It's no different than someone claiming to be a Master in BJJ and then show up and perform horribly against someone who trained themselves to fight.
> 
> When someone beats another who claims to be an expert or master, then it damages the perception of the defeated system.  The problem with TMA is that many people try to make excuses for the practitioner instead of just coming out and saying the truth.  The fighter had no fighting or sparring experience and because of that lost the fight in a disgraceful way after claiming to be a Master.



My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> The guy in the video did not train to use Tai Chi for self-defense or sparring environments.  This was clear at the start.  There's no need to defend him or the art of Tai Chi because it wasn't a good representation of what Tai Chi competitive or self-defense focused practitioners do.  It's better to call it out for what it was than to defend him as if he was a good representation of Tai Chi applications.


He wasn't a good representative of taijiquan, as in Chen taijiquan we would clinch and then throw if rushed like that. Chen taijiquan is very big on wrestling.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> He fell down because he had really bad footwork.  We have seen competitors from various styles including Tai Chi who have better foot work than that.  We have even seen untrained fighters with better footwork.  This guy is just not a good representation of Tai Chi or Chinese martial arts in general.  This fight wouldn't have gotten the publicity that it's getting had he not boasted and claimed himself as a "Tai Chi Master."    It's no different than someone claiming to be a Master in BJJ and then show up and perform horribly against someone who trained themselves to fight.
> 
> When someone beats another who claims to be an expert or master, then it damages the perception of the defeated system.  The problem with TMA is that many people try to make excuses for the practitioner instead of just coming out and saying the truth.  The fighter had no fighting or sparring experience and because of that lost the fight in a disgraceful way after claiming to be a Master.


His footwork moved first back then at an angle causing his fall but is it possible the punch also made him fall sure why not or visa versa point is we see this same type in mma ring fights which the OP doesn't seem to point out. So then it goes back to OK if this happens in pro fights people slipping or getting punched like this does that mean a.pro fighters suck b.this guy is good or c. The better regardless of style fighter won.
The taijiquan community really doesn't give a **** about this and five years no one else will give a **** about it either.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?


No effect at all fanboy


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?


As a CMA guy, my answer will be it's important for any CMA guy to develop

1. entering strategy - Can you move in fast enough without been hit?
2. finish strategy - Can you knock/take your opponent down fast?


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## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> His footwork moved first back then at an angle causing his fall but is it possible the punch also made him fall sure why not or visa versa point is we see this same type in mma ring fights which the OP doesn't seem to point out. So then it goes back to OK if this happens in pro fights people slipping or getting punched like this does that mean a.pro fighters suck b.this guy is good or c. The better regardless of style fighter won.
> The taijiquan community really doesn't give a **** about this and five years no one else will give a **** about it either.


No one gives a **** about it now apart from the op. similiar things were said in 73 that Kung fu was so superior and other traditional arts will die out. It was said again 93 with nonsense like oh karate will soon be extinct now or no one will bother to train striking anymore but guess what karates still going just as strong as ever. Silly little matches being made by some spoiled rich kid in china will make 0 difference to anything. Simply no one cares. The people training in Chinese martial arts will continue to do so and people who are interested in them will still join. Quite honestly I bet barely anyone's even heard about this nonsense in the non martial art world


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## ShortBridge (May 9, 2017)

Missed most of the discussion, but just watched the original video. 

Close one, could have gone either way. I thought he had him there for a moment.


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## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> My question to you as a practivioner of CMA; Given the media attention this is getting, what do you think happens to TCMAs if this guy keeps beating self proclaimed masters of Kung Fu? Do you think this could have any lingering long term effects?


Oh it's going to have a really big effect.  For me it's going to make it more difficult for me to attract people who are interested in martial arts.  On the good side, it's going to clean house for CMAs in the long run.  I think the more fake CMA masters give bad impressions the more likely the real CMA practitioners who train with a fighting focus will start to appear.

I'm even starting to see more Jow Ga schools showcase their sparring and fighting abilities. Some schools have always done so but others have stayed in the dark.  With things like this I think the Jow Ga schools don't want to be lumped in.  Things like this is becoming more common in terms of Jow Ga practitioners trying to show that what we do is the real thing.


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## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No one gives a **** about it now apart from the op. similiar things were said in 73 that Kung fu was so superior and other traditional arts will die out. It was said again 93 with nonsense like oh karate will soon be extinct now or no one will bother to train striking anymore but guess what karates still going just as strong as ever. Silly little matches being made by some spoiled rich kid in china will make 0 difference to anything. Simply no one cares. The people training in Chinese martial arts will continue to do so and people who are interested in them will still join. Quite honestly I bet barely anyone's even heard about this nonsense in the non martial art world


That is true. I really don't think to many people really give a **** about this in China as well.


----------



## Headhunter (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> That is true. I really don't think to many people really give a **** about this in China as well.


Of course they don't. The only ones who actually care are the mma fanboys who want to rub it in other people's faces about how great mma is and yeah sure mmas good but it's not the be all and end all either. Arts like tai chi and Kung fu or whatever have been around thousands of years and still going strong even with all the advanced knowledge of martial arts. Why can't both just exist and people be happy with that. Would people like the op rather all other martial arts die out and then there's only mma left and that means less and less would train martial arts because a lot of people who train different styles simply don't want to do that kind of thing.


----------



## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Oh it's going to have a really big effect.  For me it's going to make it more difficult for me to attract people who are interested in martial arts.  On the good side, it's going to clean house for CMAs in the long run.  I think the more fake CMA masters give bad impressions the more likely the real CMA practitioners who train with a fighting focus will start to appear.
> 
> I'm even starting to see more Jow Ga schools showcase their sparring and fighting abilities. Some schools have always done so but others have stayed in the dark.  With things like this I think the Jow Ga schools don't want to be lumped in.  Things like this is becoming more common in terms of Jow Ga practitioners trying to show that what we do is the real thing.


I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, I think most Taijiquan people are happy that people think Taijiquan is just some dance devoid of martial arts. 
Most people do not even know this side of Taijiquan is possible


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Missed most of the discussion, but just watched the original video.
> 
> Close one, could have gone either way. I thought he had him there for a moment.


The MMA guy understood the "run down" strategy very well.

If you

- kick me, I'll run you down,
- punch me, I'll run you down,
- do nothing, I'll still run you down.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> His footwork moved first back then at an angle causing his fall but is it possible the punch also made him fall sure why not or visa versa point is we see this same type in mma ring fights which the OP doesn't seem to point out. So then it goes back to OK if this happens in pro fights people slipping or getting punched like this does that mean a.pro fighters suck b.this guy is good or c. The better regardless of style fighter won.
> The taijiquan community really doesn't give a **** about this and five years no one else will give a **** about it either.


Backpedaling for more than a couple of steps is just bad footwork and when people do it, they usually fall down or get hit with something that easily knocks them down because their feet were in the worse possible position to resist the imbalance caused by the punch.  Wing practitioners often knock their opponents over when their opponent starts backpedals longer than they should.

The taijiquan community that only practices for health purposes won't care, as they never claim to be dangerous or skilled fighters.  They let you know right from the start that they don't train to fight.  Communities like that won't ever be hurt by videos like this.  The ones who will be hurt are those who market their martial arts as a form of self-defense.  Why would a student learn self-defense from a person who did such a poor job in defending himself?  

If you teach Taijiquan just for health benefits then fighting videos have nothing to do with how you train.  People still talk about Gracie and the early days of UFC 1.  In the Jow Ga communities people still talk about about how the founder won a contest of 100 fighters.  Things like the video will be around longer than you think, because there will always be an MMA fan boy who is more than happy to remind you of it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, I think most Taijiquan people are happy that people think Taijiquan is just some dance devoid of martial arts.
> Most people do not even know this side of Taijiquan is possible


A very valid and realistic observation about Taijiquan.  Even to day I hear people including Chinese refer to it as "the thing old people do."

I actually had more injuries in Tai Chi sparring than in Jow Ga sparring.  My sparring partners enjoyed attacking the elbows.  For a while I though my elbows were permanently damaged from the abuse that they took.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The MMA guy understood the "run down" strategy very well.
> 
> If you
> 
> ...


The MMA guy understood who he was facing had no clue what he was doing and he took advantage of that.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, ...


The first day that I started my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with

- horse stance,
- bow-arrow stance,
- striking tiger stance,
- golden rooster stance,
- 7 star stance,
- stealing step stance,
- 40-60 stance,

Those stances that will be used in the 108 moves Chang Taiji form later on. When I explained those stances, one guy stood up, said, "This is not Taiji". He then left. I had never seen him since then.

In

- ball room dancing, you start from fox step, box step, ... In ball room dancing, you may not need to switch your steps.
- Taiji training, you start from horse stance, bow-arrow stance, ... In Taiji training, you do need to be able to shift from one stance into another.

Even today, I still don't know why that guy didn't give me a chance to show him all the stances that will be used in the Taiji system. I can only say, "Taiji guys are weird."


----------



## oaktree (May 9, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The first day that I started my Taiji class in Austin Community College, I started with
> 
> - horse stance,
> - bow-arrow stance,
> ...


My first class was the first 3 steps in Chen Laojia


----------



## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


> I personally like students who don't think Taijiquan is good for self defense, I think most Taijiquan people are happy that people think Taijiquan is just some dance devoid of martial arts.
> Most people do not even know this side of Taijiquan is possible



We've already seen this.

Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;






That form of grappling is simply lacking compared to where grappling currently is within the sphere of modern submission grappling.


----------



## CB Jones (May 9, 2017)

oaktree said:


>



No disrespect

but the throws at 48 seconds and 1.18 looked fake to me.  Big guy just intentionally goes down.  Is that just me?

FWIW the the throws in the 1st video looked more real.


----------



## CB Jones (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> We've already seen this.
> 
> Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;
> 
> ...




What does a video of one of the top grapplers in a grappling only training session prove?


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;


What I saw looked really good considering what we were watching. The way the other grappler was flying around speaks of valid techniques.  

As for the takedowns, those same are the same things that happens when Grapplers go against each other. I didn't see anything that would be considered as one system being better than the other.  
For example


----------



## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> No disrespect
> 
> but the throws at 48 seconds and 1.18 looked fake to me.  Big guy just intentionally goes down.  Is that just me?
> 
> FWIW the the throws in the 1st video looked more real.



That would be because it is fake. The big guy is the thrower's student.


----------



## Hanzou (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> What I saw looked really good considering what we were watching. The way the other grappler was flying around speaks of valid techniques.
> 
> As for the takedowns, those same are the same things that happens when Grapplers go against each other. I didn't see anything that would be considered as one system being better than the other.
> For example



Because one grappler defends against and understands grappling below the waist, and one doesn't. It shows a deficiency in training.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Because one grappler defends against and understands grappling below the waist, and one doesn't. It shows a deficiency in training.


 I don't know if it's a deficiency in training or a deficiency in understanding.  The reason I say this is because of how the low horse stance is viewed by some of the Jow Ga practitioners at my school.  Here's the example:
All Jow Ga students are taught to practice a good low stance where the legs don't bend less than 90 degrees.  We train this. However, I'm the only one who believes that Kung fu actually uses the low stance in fighting.  My belief in this is because I have used the low stance successfully multiple times.  The other instructor believes that I'm mistaken.   The deficiency in this case was not in training, it was in understanding.  I understand the low stance in a different light than what the other instructor sees it as.  Even though we both train it, one instructor understands it and the other does not.

I see the low stance as functional but the other instructor sees the low stance only as something to make the legs strong.  Once the Taijichuan guy understands the risks of having someone get under him, then some of the other things that he has been training will make better sense.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> In the case of Tai Chi, it's the fighter not the system.  Most people know Tai Chi for being exercise and not actually a fighting system.  Most people practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not as a fighting system.  It's not enough to just do the forms to be able to use it in competition or for self defense.


If only there were a relatively safe way for a martial artist of any style to see how well their individual skill level and technical abilities work under pressure.   

Seriously, do you guys not appreciate how quickly and definitively we can assess the skill level of the guy in the video based on a very brief video of him under pressure?   It's right there guys.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> Seriously, do you guys not appreciate how quickly and definitively we can assess the skill level of the guy in the video based on a very brief video of him under pressure? It's right there guys.


I don't it. I can see the truth in the videos.  My comments about most people only practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not a fighting system is accurate.  This is the norm for most martial arts out there. It's not a put down it's just a reality that reflects that not everyone wants to learn how to fight.  On any given day you'll find more people taking fitness martial arts than you will find someone training it with a focus on self defense.

I can only dream about getting this many people into a Jow Ga class


----------



## TSDTexan (May 9, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> before we continue this we may want to review some MT rules
> 
> *1.10.2 No Art bashing.
> *
> No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.




Heresy: Sinanju has no weaknesses.


----------



## TSDTexan (May 9, 2017)

Buka said:


> My two cents - I like doing Tai-Chi a helluva lot more than I like doing MMA.


Me too... hurts less.


----------



## Steve (May 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't it. I can see the truth in the videos.  My comments about most people only practice Tai Chi as an exercise and not a fighting system is accurate.  This is the norm for most martial arts out there. It's not a put down it's just a reality that reflects that not everyone wants to learn how to fight.  On any given day you'll find more people taking fitness martial arts than you will find someone training it with a focus on self defense.
> 
> I can only dream about getting this many people into a Jow Ga class


No, sorry.  I'm not being clear.  I agree with you.  My second comment was to the group at large.  Dan T earlier very quickly identified several issues with this guy's technique.  In every competition video that is posted, people very quickly and easily identify what is good and/or bad about the folks in the video.  It's easy to do because they are executing technique under real pressure.  And yet, many of those same folks deride competition as an effective means of testing and measuring proficiency.  It's a funny (odd) disconnect.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know if it's a deficiency in training or a deficiency in understanding.  The reason I say this is because of how the low horse stance is viewed by some of the Jow Ga practitioners at my school.  Here's the example:
> All Jow Ga students are taught to practice a good low stance where the legs don't bend less than 90 degrees.  We train this. However, I'm the only one who believes that Kung fu actually uses the low stance in fighting.  My belief in this is because I have used the low stance successfully multiple times.  The other instructor believes that I'm mistaken.   The deficiency in this case was not in training, it was in understanding.  I understand the low stance in a different light than what the other instructor sees it as.  Even though we both train it, one instructor understands it and the other does not.
> 
> I see the low stance as functional but the other instructor sees the low stance only as something to make the legs strong.  Once the Taijichuan guy understands the risks of having someone get under him, then some of the other things that he has been training will make better sense.



Except it isn't just him. That deficiency is evident in the entire system. I have yet to see any Tuishou grappling that defends against lower attacks. Tuishou appears to be designed that way, which means that its overall application for grappling is highly limited compared to other, more modern methods.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> The backstory is that prior to the bout, MMA fighter Xu had criticized traditional martial arts for being outdated and “a lie” without combat purposes, strongly insulting Tai-Chi in particular. In response Wei challenged him to a duel. The stage was set in Chengdu, China in front of a large crowd with a referee and MC.
> 
> It ends the way you expect.
> 
> ...



I think we need to establish that the way a person trains is more impactful than the style they train in. I look at this fight and I see very little actual skill from the MMA guy. He literally just runs forwards throwing random punches hoping to get a hit. That takes very little skill and hell, even I could do that with no training at all. The Tai Chi practitioner more than likely has better control over their body and therefore has more skill, but the difference between them is I'm guessing that the "MMA" guy has been in a lot of fights before, while the Tai Chi guy hasn't. That difference in fighting experience is the key factor here. If the Tai Chi guy had actually trained his art with the purpose of actual fighting, the fight might have turned out completely differently. The reason why the MMA fighters say arts like Tai Chi are worthless for fighting is because 99% of Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight. If you train Tai Chi as a form of moving meditation, you can't suddenly be good at fighting with it just by stepping into the ring.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think we need to establish that the way a person trains is more impactful than the style they train in. I look at this fight and I see very little actual skill from the MMA guy. He literally just runs forwards throwing random punches hoping to get a hit. That takes very little skill and hell, even I could do that with no training at all. The Tai Chi practitioner more than likely has better control over their body and therefore has more skill, but the difference between them is I'm guessing that the "MMA" guy has been in a lot of fights before, while the Tai Chi guy hasn't. That difference in fighting experience is the key factor here. If the Tai Chi guy had actually trained his art with the purpose of actual fighting, the fight might have turned out completely differently. The reason why the MMA fighters say arts like Tai Chi are worthless for fighting is because 99% of Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight. If you train Tai Chi as a form of moving meditation, you can't suddenly be good at fighting with it just by stepping into the ring.



No offense, but that's a load of nonsense.

1. MMA guy's attack did showcase skill. Believe it or not, it takes skill to move forward rapidly and connect punches to a target. If you watch the video, he tagged the Tai Chi practitioner multiple times in the head, which caused the latter to fall down.

2. The idea that the CMA practitioner had more control is nonsense. He lacked the ability to counter punches, and his footwork was atrocious. He backpedaled like someone who has never been hit before. Part of body control is being able to retain your senses when the punches start flying.

3. Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.


----------



## Tez3 (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.



This may or may not be true but quite honestly does it matter to the rest of us? I don't think it does, if these people think they are deadly and they're not then it's on their heads, if they are deadly they don't seem to be going around attacking people so it's not a problem anywhere.
I think people enjoy finding martial arts they can criticise, makes them feel all warm and fuzzy when they think they see people failing, one thing to remember though, blowing out other people's candles does not make your shine more, there's always those candles that will burn brighter than yours because they are true to themselves and don't give a stuff what others do, make your way to them, join your candle to them and we all benefit.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> We've already seen this.
> 
> Here's what happens when they go up against a competent grappler;
> 
> ...



I thought the Chen guy did fine. Was he as good as Marcelo Garcia? Nope. But neither are you or I or anyone else on this forum. The fact that he was able to do as well as he did shows that he is a solidly competent standup grappler.

Bear in mind that the talent pool for guys playing competitive Chen style competitive tuishou is probably much smaller than that of people practicing competitive BJJ, so statistically speaking you are less likely to find monsters like MG.



Hanzou said:


> Except it isn't just him. That deficiency is evident in the entire system. I have yet to see any Tuishou grappling that defends against lower attacks. Tuishou appears to be designed that way, which means that its overall application for grappling is highly limited compared to other, more modern methods.



Eh, I'd say this approach to tuishou seem comparable to Greco-Roman Wrestlng, which also doesn't have leg attacks. (As mentioned before, the talent pool is smaller, so there probably isn't any Chen equivalent to Alexandr Karelin.) Are Greco-Roman and Tuishou may not be as "complete" or "broad" as BJJ or Catch Wrestling, but there are advantages to specialization. I don't go around bashing Boxing for not having kicks or BJJ for not having knife skills or Muay Thai for not having chokes. I just look to learn what I can from the folks who have spent time delving into a specialized area.


----------



## Headhunter (May 10, 2017)

At the end of the day no matter his skill at least he stepped up and fought...tell me op what's your fight record where's the videos of your fights? Maybe instead of acting all so superior maybe realise that this guy had the guts to test himself


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> This may or may not be true but quite honestly does it matter to the rest of us? I don't think it does, if these people think they are deadly and they're not then it's on their heads, if they are deadly they don't seem to be going around attacking people so it's not a problem anywhere.



Of course it matters. If we have a martial art that is making claims that aren't substantiated, I'm not seeing the issue reporting when it is exposed. Further, a vast swath of people find this sort of thing interesting, hence why it's being reported all over the net and in China.

If you dislike this, no one is forcing you to respond to the thread.


----------



## Headhunter (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Of course it matters. If we have a martial art that is making claims that aren't substantiated, I'm not seeing the issue reporting when it is exposed. Further, a vast swath of people find this sort of thing interesting, hence why it's being reported all over the net and in China.
> 
> If you dislike this, no one is forcing you to respond to the thread.


Yeah just like those irritating nosy neighbours who spend all their time looking out the window waiting for their neighbour to do something wrong so they can report it..or someone who watches tv to make complaints about it....you fit that description perfectly. 

In my opinion if someone has time to go around cristising other people's choices then their life must be very boring and empty


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah just like those irritating nosy neighbours who spend all their time looking out the window waiting for their neighbour to do something wrong so they can report it..or someone who watches tv to make complaints about it....you fit that description perfectly.
> 
> In my opinion if someone has time to go around cristising other people's choices then their life must be very boring and empty



I'm always curious about people who sit in discussion boards and complain about the topic being discussed in individual threads. If you don't like this topic, why are you wasting your time in this thread? There's plenty of other topics for you to discuss on this forum.


----------



## Headhunter (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I'm always curious about people who sit in discussion boards and complain about the topic being discussed in individual threads. If you don't like this topic, why are you wasting your time in this thread? There's plenty of other topics for you to discuss on this forum.


Well that's the thing with you there's no discussing anything. You're always right and refuse to listen to anyone else and believe you know everything and don't even try to learn anything


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I thought the Chen guy did fine. Was he as good as Marcelo Garcia? Nope. But neither are you or I or anyone else on this forum. The fact that he was able to do as well as he did shows that he is a solidly competent standup grappler.
> 
> Bear in mind that the talent pool for guys playing competitive Chen style competitive tuishou is probably much smaller than that of people practicing competitive BJJ, so statistically speaking you are less likely to find monsters like MG.
> 
> ...



Well keep in mind, my post was in response to another post showcasing a fraudulent sparring match between Tuishou and wrestling, and my second response was in response to a poster who claimed that what occurred in my video is what typically happens between two grapplers from the same style are in a physical contest.

I would certainly consider the lack of kicking in boxing a deficiency in the system, as are the lack of chokes in Muay Thai, and the lack of striking is a deficiency in Bjj. No martial art is perfect.

Which is why we cross train.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Well that's the thing with you there's no discussing anything. You're always right and refuse to listen to anyone else and believe you know everything and don't even try to learn anything



Well if you were paying attention, plenty of people are discussing the topic. A few individuals like yourself whining on the sidelines about how people are being big bad "meany heads" have fortunately not derailed this discussion.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> No offense, but that's a load of nonsense.
> 
> 1. MMA guy's attack did showcase skill. Believe it or not, it takes skill to move forward rapidly and connect punches to a target. If you watch the video, he tagged the Tai Chi practitioner multiple times in the head, which caused the latter to fall down.
> 
> ...



1. It takes more skill to block or deflect a punch than to throw the punch itself. Rushing forwards throwing punches isn't going to get you anywhere against a skilled opponent. In gaming we call this kind of approach "cheesing" where you do a strategy that is in essence very counter-productive in the hopes of catching your opponent off guard. Cheese strategies are typically very easy to execute but only reliably work against inexperienced opponents. In other words, put this guy in the ring against a seasoned MMA fighter and have him try that same approach and he will land flat on his face. 

2. I said the Tai Chi practitioner LIKELY has more control, since being able to perform Tai Chi typically requires good body control (of course, we don't know since we don't see him doing any of his forms). His inability to block the punches has nothing to do with his body control, but merely his lack of experience in an actual fight. You can practice the movements all you like but you won't actually learn how to block an attack until it's used against you. 

3. The outspoken minority will always make fools of themselves, as showcased in this video. And again, this has nothing to do with the art itself, but a guy who hasn't trained to fight thinking he can fight. It's like if you have a person who trains Capoeira for dance, vs someone who trains Capoeira for fighting. Just because they both train the same art doesn't mean the one who trains for dancing can go into a ring and fight someone.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Except it isn't just him. That deficiency is evident in the entire system. I have yet to see any Tuishou grappling that defends against lower attacks. Tuishou appears to be designed that way, which means that its overall application for grappling is highly limited compared to other, more modern methods.


I don't know.  I can't tell by looking at one person and make a blanket statement about an entire system that I don't train in.  The most I can do is see how much someone understands about the techniques, by the way they perform and make an assumption if that person can fill in the gaps in his understanding, such as deny BJJ and other wrestlers, access to the waist and lower limbs.  With solid understanding of a technique, a person can use the techniques that he or she already knows to accomplish the goals, (provided that they know the right technique to use).

There were probably some people in this group, who had yet to see grappling and counter grappling done in kung fu free sparring until I showed my videos.  It doesn't mean that I'm the only one training like this or that there aren't any other videos like it.  It just means that it's probably just the only video that others have seen.

I don't have any doubt that you see this deficiency in other students who practice Tuishou, but I can't say it's a deficiency in the system itself.  At the most I would say that it's a deficiency in teaching, training, or understanding.  I probably wouldn't use the word " deficiency" because it doesn't accurate describe what is really going on when people aren't able to use the techniques that they are training or if they don't understand the right approach.

Edit: 





Hanzou said:


> I would certainly consider the lack of kicking in boxing a deficiency in the system,


This is why I wouldn't use the word deficiency.   Boxing has no kicking and kicking is not allowed by the rules.  Based on the rules of Boxing, the lack of kicking doesn't make it deficient.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I think we need to establish that the way a person trains is more impactful than the style they train in. I look at this fight and I see very little actual skill from the MMA guy. He literally just runs forwards throwing random punches hoping to get a hit. That takes very little skill and hell, even I could do that with no training at all. The Tai Chi practitioner more than likely has better control over their body and therefore has more skill, but the difference between them is I'm guessing that the "MMA" guy has been in a lot of fights before, while the Tai Chi guy hasn't. That difference in fighting experience is the key factor here. If the Tai Chi guy had actually trained his art with the purpose of actual fighting, the fight might have turned out completely differently. The reason why the MMA fighters say arts like Tai Chi are worthless for fighting is because 99% of Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight. If you train Tai Chi as a form of moving meditation, you can't suddenly be good at fighting with it just by stepping into the ring.


I agree with your statement about not training to fight.  We can only do what we train to do.  If I don't train to fight with kung fu then I shouldn't make the assumption that I can actually fight using kung fu.   If I train to fight using kung fu then I can make the assumption that I can use kung fu to fight with.  The truth in these statements are based completely on the training.  There's good training and there's bad training.  I can have assumptions about my training, thinking that it's quality "fight" training when in reality it isn't. The quality of "fight" training is going to depend on how well the person understands the fighting environment and the rules.

As for the Tai Chi guy vs MMA guy.  The Tai Chi guy had horrible control, horrible root, and horrible stance.  Don't defend people who claim to be Masters and yet turn out to be a poor representation of the the system that they claim to be experts of.  Just accept that this guy was not good as he claimed to be.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps 99% Tai Chi practitioners don't train to fight, but you would never know that from segments of the Tai Chi community who adamantly believes that they're practicing a deadly martial art.


 One can practice a boxing without being a boxer.  There's a difference between training boxing and training to fight with boxing.  This is how it is with martial arts.  It's not enough to just practice the techniques and you'll be a fighter.  You actually have to practice the techniques in the context of fighting.  Most importantly it has to be in the context of fighting someone outside of the system.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> 1. It takes more skill to block or deflect a punch than to throw the punch itself. Rushing forwards throwing punches isn't going to get you anywhere against a skilled opponent. In gaming we call this kind of approach "cheesing" where you do a strategy that is in essence very counter-productive in the hopes of catching your opponent off guard. Cheese strategies are typically very easy to execute but only reliably work against inexperienced opponents. In other words, put this guy in the ring against a seasoned MMA fighter and have him try that same approach and he will land flat on his face.



Yes, but since none of those punches were deflected or blocked, that point is rather irrelevant. Again, it takes skill to throw a punch while moving that is CONNECTING to its target. Additionally, this guy's opponent was skilled in his chosen martial art. The problem is that his martial arts training was insufficient for fighting against a person trying to knock his block off.

Everything else you said I agree with.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

NYtimes story about the fight:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html

So much for nobody caring about this story eh?


----------



## Ironbear24 (May 10, 2017)

This **** all over again.


----------



## Steve (May 10, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> This **** all over again.


LOL.  Meaningful contribution, Ironbear24.


----------



## oaktree (May 10, 2017)

So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won? 

I would say in the long run the mma guy lost the war even if he won the battle.

It really doesn't change anything people will still practice taijiquan and others mma these two guys will be forgotten and the vast majority never gave one ****.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Additionally, this guy's opponent was skilled in his chosen martial art.


Assumes facts not in evidence.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Assumes facts not in evidence.



There's video of him doing a Tai Chi form, and he headed a documentary about Tai Chi a few years ago. From all accounts, he was pretty respected among the community......

Until he lost.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I would certainly consider the lack of kicking in boxing a deficiency in the system,





Hanzou said:


> NYtimes story about the fight:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html
> 
> So much for nobody caring about this story eh?


lol.  yep.  Stuff like this have a huge effect.  And the fact that the guy was a SELF PROCLAIMED Tai chi master makes no difference.  Everyone keeps calling him a Tai Chi master even though it's clear that he isn't lol.  Thank goodness he did this as a Master of "Thunder Style" Tai Chi.  So if anyone wants to take Tai Chi, then don't take that one lol.

I'm not sure why the Chinese were offended.  The Tai Chi guy didn't have to accept the challenge.  This is nonsense "_The state-run Chinese Wushu Association posted a statement on its website saying the fight “violates the morals of martial arts.” The Chinese Boxing Association issued similar criticism._" and is what is wrong with many CMAs today.  There was once a time where fights like this would have been seen as validation of a school.

As for this, "_An article by Xinhua, the state news agency, called Mr. Xu a “crazy guy,” saying that the fight had caused people to question whether Chinese martial arts were of any use and even to ask, “What exactly are traditional Chinese martial arts?_”  China is late to the party.  This is not a new question.

And this will be the death of Traditional Martial Arts in China "“_The key difference between what Mr. Xu does and martial arts is that martial arts isn’t a competitive sport,’’ he said. “It’s not about really hurting. It’s about giving your opponent ‘face.’ And Mr. Xu’s style is about beating your opponent to near death._”"   People keep saying this crap yet there are techniques in Traditional Martial Arts that will freaking destroy joints, ligaments, and tendons.  There are even weapon forms and techniques for fighting with daggers.

Once again people defend the crap and not admit that this guy was not good at Tai Chi.  Stop defending people with no skills. And then be little the martial arts by saying that Martial Arts isn't a competitive sport, especially when we see the Martial Arts sporting outlets all the time.  

Before I'm was upset that the MMA guy took it as far as he did.  He won, but proceeded to beat the guy.  But now I'm glad he did because it highlights a bigger problem that I wasn't aware of and that's some Chinese organizations not understanding the reality of Martial Arts.  *Martial Arts is not about giving your opponents face* ...


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

oaktree said:


> So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?



MMA won, and TMA lost. Why? Because stuff like this hastens the decline of the latter.


----------



## drop bear (May 10, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> 1. It takes more skill to block or deflect a punch than to throw the punch itself. Rushing forwards throwing punches isn't going to get you anywhere against a skilled opponent. In gaming we call this kind of approach "cheesing" where you do a strategy that is in essence very counter-productive in the hopes of catching your opponent off guard. Cheese strategies are typically very easy to execute but only reliably work against inexperienced opponents. In other words, put this guy in the ring against a seasoned MMA fighter and have him try that same approach and he will land flat on his face.
> 
> 2. I said the Tai Chi practitioner LIKELY has more control, since being able to perform Tai Chi typically requires good body control (of course, we don't know since we don't see him doing any of his forms). His inability to block the punches has nothing to do with his body control, but merely his lack of experience in an actual fight. You can practice the movements all you like but you won't actually learn how to block an attack until it's used against you.
> 
> 3. The outspoken minority will always make fools of themselves, as showcased in this video. And again, this has nothing to do with the art itself, but a guy who hasn't trained to fight thinking he can fight. It's like if you have a person who trains Capoeira for dance, vs someone who trains Capoeira for fighting. Just because they both train the same art doesn't mean the one who trains for dancing can go into a ring and fight someone.



So if you don't have an opportunity to practice fighting somewhere in your system. 

Chances are you will not be very good at it.  And never know untill you have to use it.


----------



## drop bear (May 10, 2017)

oaktree said:


> So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?
> 
> I would say in the long run the mma guy lost the war even if he won the battle.
> 
> It really doesn't change anything people will still practice taijiquan and others mma these two guys will be forgotten and the vast majority never gave one ****.



Good training won?

Look up the Art jimmerson. (probably misspelled that) story.

Anyway it was one of the early UFC guys who got flogged.

Came back 20 years later and won a MMA fight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

oaktree said:


> So the guy lost his career and ruined his life and has to go in hiding so who really won?
> 
> I would say in the long run the mma guy lost the war even if he won the battle.
> 
> It really doesn't change anything people will still practice taijiquan and others mma these two guys will be forgotten and the vast majority never gave one ****.


The only people who won't care are those who practice Taijiquan for health benefits and not for fighting.  As for other martial artists who train Taijiquan for fighting and self-defense, they will care; especially if they teach it to make a living and their main customers are those who want to learn self-defense.

The only thing that the MMA guy did was to beat the man down. Literally.  Once the man was on the ground and it was clear that he won, he should have stopped punching.  The MMA guy couldn't recognized his dominance and that's what screwed him up, and not the fact that he won.  This is simply a case of winning with honor vs winning as a bully.  No one likes bullies and that's how his win came across.   The proper protocol was to beat the guy up, help him up, shake his hand, and then send him on his way.  Then when you get home have a big party and talk about how you stomped him into the ground. lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> There's video of him doing a Tai Chi form, and he headed a documentary about Tai Chi a few years ago. From all accounts, he was pretty respected among the community......
> 
> Until he lost.


Doing a Tai Chi form does not mean you are a skilled fighter.  You driving a car doesn't mean that you are a skilled race car driver.  I thought we covered this in past conversations on Form vs Application.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Doing a Tai Chi form does not mean you are a skilled fighter.  You driving a car doesn't mean that you are a skilled race car driver.  I thought we covered this in past conversations on Form vs Application.



Well, I never said he was a skilled fighter, I was simply saying he was skilled. It takes skill to perform a kata the way he did. I certainly don't have that level of skill. Then again, I never was very good at kata/forms.

Not surprisingly, I suck at dancing as well.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Well, I never said he was a skilled fighter, I was simply saying he was skilled. It takes skill to perform a kata the way he did. I certainly don't have that level of skill. Then again, I never was very good at kata/forms.
> 
> Not surprisingly, I suck at dancing as well.


Ok. I see where you are coming from.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Good training won?
> 
> Look up the Art jimmerson. (probably misspelled that) story.
> 
> ...


Really.. I thought he only fought once and that's when he had the one boxing glove on.


----------



## Buka (May 10, 2017)

I think you're all overlooking something. The MMA guy was wearing pink shoes. Nobody ever lost a fight while wearing pink shoes. Bet he even clicked his heals together three times, too.

But on a serious note. Anybody here ever gotten their *** kicked? Doesn't necessarily mean anything about either guy's Art.


----------



## Headhunter (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> NYtimes story about the fight:
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/10/world/asia/mma-martial-arts-china-tai-chi.html
> 
> So much for nobody caring about this story eh?


Of course the media will report it since it's a cool sounding headline but do you really think anyone who reads it will genuinely care...any non martial artist probably even bother looking at it and any martial artist will simply quickly read it give the video a quick watch then move on with their life. 

This seems to be the happiest day of your life seeing that I mean you posted an article about it in a thread you started about the same thing.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Of course the media will report it since it's a cool sounding headline but do you really think anyone who reads it will genuinely care


  3 different websites some with comments.  I haven't read the comments, but if they care then it will show in the comments.
MMA fighter dismantles Tai Chi master in 10 seconds, ignites a martial arts firestorm
http://www.todayonline.com/chinaind...fighter-who-whipped-tai-chi-master-10-seconds
Kung fu experts challenge MMA fighter who beat tai chi master in 10 seconds
http://www.todayonline.com/chinaind...fighter-who-whipped-tai-chi-master-10-seconds
Tai Chi master Vs MMA fighter
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/tai-chi-master-vs-mma-fighter.454965609/


----------



## Headhunter (May 10, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> 3 different websites some with comments.  I haven't read the comments, but if they care then it will show in the comments.
> MMA fighter dismantles Tai Chi master in 10 seconds, ignites a martial arts firestorm
> Kung fu experts challenge MMA fighter who beat tai chi master in 10 seconds
> Tai Chi master Vs MMA fighter


Ah yes the comment sections of news websites. Totally full of honest insite right? Just like a YouTube comment section those things are filled with keyboard warriors who spend their time watching to much ufc in their basements while wearing tap out t shirts. Basically a bunch of trolls.


----------



## Headhunter (May 10, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> 3 different websites some with comments.  I haven't read the comments, but if they care then it will show in the comments.
> MMA fighter dismantles Tai Chi master in 10 seconds, ignites a martial arts firestorm
> Kung fu experts challenge MMA fighter who beat tai chi master in 10 seconds
> Tai Chi master Vs MMA fighter


I've actually got a number of friends who are big into the tai chi world and other martial arts and I thought I'd see if they'd heard of all of this and they didn't have a clue and when I explained they just shrugged and basically said "hey **** happens who cares that's life"


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Ah yes the comment sections of news websites. Totally full of honest insite right? Just like a YouTube comment section those things are filled with keyboard warriors who spend their time watching to much ufc in their basements while wearing tap out t shirts. Basically a bunch of trolls.


People often participate in things that they like or care about.  That is all that is needed.  It doesn't matter if it's honest insite or not.  It only matters that people care enough to comment and offer opinions, assumptions, and observations.  Do you know why we don't go to a forum to talk about ant fungus?  it's because we don't care about it.  The fact that this discussion is on it's 6th page shows that there are some people who care about it enough to comment.  

I guess the the other  Tai Chi teachers and well known traditional martial artist who have comment and given their opinions are also trolls.   Keyboard warriors or not someone spent time to type their comments on the matter.



Headhunter said:


> I've actually got a number of friends who are big into the tai chi world and other martial arts and I thought I'd see if they'd heard of all of this and they didn't have a clue and when I explained they just shrugged and basically said "hey **** happens who cares that's life"


That's because they have no interest of defending the Tai Chi guy.  He's not representative of what they do. I have no interest in defending the Tai Chi guy either but I used what happened to him as a lesson to my students and about their training so they don't go out and think that they can fight when they don't even take the sparring classes.

I want them to be safe when it comes to self-defense and not to make assumptions about their training thinking that they can do more than what they train for.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I used what happened to him as a lesson to my students and about their training ...


Agree! If you have trained MA all your life. In one fight, your opponent just knock/take you down within 10 seconds. What can be worse than this?

That clip can teach us many things:

You should develop

1. ability to run your opponent down.
2. skill to deal with your opponent's run down skill.
3. effective knock/take down skill.
4. footwork and move in circle and not just standing still as a sitting duck.
5. ...






If that Taiji guy has hay-maker skill, the outcome could be different.

- Spin your body,
- Move yourself out of your opponent's striking path,
- Knock down your opponent's straight punch, and
- Hay-maker on the back of your opponent's head.

When your opponent comes in and tries to knock your head off, if you just swing your arm into a 45 degree downward hay-maker, you will be surprised how effective your hay-maker can be.


----------



## Hanzou (May 10, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Of course the media will report it since it's a cool sounding headline but do you really think anyone who reads it will genuinely care...any non martial artist probably even bother looking at it and any martial artist will simply quickly read it give the video a quick watch then move on with their life.
> 
> This seems to be the happiest day of your life seeing that I mean you posted an article about it in a thread you started about the same thing.



I've never seen the national and international media report on a youtube video of a fight between two martial artists from MMA and TMA. There's been several such videos over the years, and none of them have garnered the attention that this one has.

There was just a video of an Aikido teacher getting schooled by a MMA fighter. That one didn't go anywhere as viral as this one has.

I also don't think this situation is over. People are challenging each other left and right, and big wigs are putting big money down to see who comes out of top. It's going to be an interesting few months over in China for martial arts enthusiasts.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> I also don't think this situation is over. People are challenging each other left and right, and big wigs are putting big money down to see who comes out of top. It's going to be an interesting few months over in China for martial arts enthusiasts.


Xu Xiaodong only challenges Taiji guys. He still shows respect to TCMA styles such as:

- Da Chen Chuan,
- Tong Bei,
- Baji,
- WC.

IMO, only a 100% Taiji guy's challenge (with no cross training) will be able to end this discussion. Any other challenge will not be able to save the Taiji reputation.

*



*


----------



## JP3 (May 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> But on a serious note. Anybody here ever gotten their *** kicked? Doesn't necessarily mean anything about either guy's Art.



Of course not. Never happened. I'm like the '72 Dolphins.

.... OK, she left. I can tell the truth now that my wife's not looking over my shoulder reading what I'm typing...

Absolutely, it happens on a quite regular basis. It's just that we don't actually leave each other as bruised and bloody any more like we used to do. You get caught now... you grin, laugh,and say, "Hey! Ya got me! Man, I'm gonna..." and you go into the next mini-bout, or round or whatever.

Back in the day, when young and stupid... yep. It has happened to everyone who has trained. And if it hasn't, you've not been training right.  Knocked out, chocked out, tapped out, thrown out a couple of times, but those don't count since you can't score outside the competition surface in judo...

Yep.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Not sure if this is true, but my classmate (the guy from China) told me that both are going to be arrested for an unsanctioned fight. He said it as if he heard it on the news. Has any heard this?  If it's true then both will be losers.


----------



## Ironbear24 (May 10, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure if this is true, but my classmate (the guy from China) told me that both are going to be arrested for an unsanctioned fight. He said it as if he heard it on the news. Has any heard this?  If it's true then both will be losers.



Reminds me of that time Beavis and Butthead made that YouTube video calling out all Tae Kwon Do fighters to come challenge him for 500 bucks.... In the Portland airport.

Yeah what can possibly go wrong fighting in an airport?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 10, 2017)

Sometime a fight doesn't have to last very long. This round ends within 7 seconds.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Reminds me of that time Beavis and Butthead made that YouTube video calling out all Tae Kwon Do fighters to come challenge him for 500 bucks.... In the Portland airport.
> 
> Yeah what can possibly go wrong fighting in an airport?


 ha ha ha.. yeah. they gave that up.  First it was any TMA could accept, then it changed to only TKD, and the last time I checked it was only WTF TKD.  Those guys are a mess.  I don't think anyone ever accepted their challenge.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 10, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Xu Xiaodong only challenges Taiji guys. He still shows respect to TCMA styles such as:
> 
> - Da Chen Chuan,
> - Tong Bei,
> ...


 Wow the Tai chi guy is 42?  wow.. by the way he was moving I thought he was way older than that.  I'm freaking 44 going on 45 and I move with more life than he did.


----------



## Ironbear24 (May 10, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. yeah. they gave that up.  First it was any TMA could accept, then it changed to only TKD, and the last time I checked it was only WTF TKD.  Those guys are a mess.  I don't think anyone ever accepted their challenge.



I think they did but they said no you train mauy Thai as well so it won't count. 

So they just keep moving things goal post.


----------



## Tez3 (May 11, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> none of them have garnered the attention that this one has.



I imagine with political and everyday news being so dreadful that anything that takes people's minds off it, is welcome. Fights between two fleas would probably make the news at the moment.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I imagine with political and everyday news being so dreadful that anything that takes people's minds off it, is welcome. Fights between two fleas would probably make the news at the moment.


There's a lot of tension in the world.  Things that were kind of "hidden in closets" has just poured out and everyone is crazy.. Even north Korea's leader is saying.  "you guys are nuts." lol.My guess is once the tension releases then everyone will come back to their senses.


----------



## oaktree (May 11, 2017)

Like I said before in the end did he really win? Because to me if you are asking for police protection, loosing your job, everyone hate you, perhaps even getting death threats you didn't win you lost. Martial arts isn't about just winning a physical fight it is about surviving and going home at night. So ya that taiji wantabe may have lost a fight but he gets to sleep well at night, gets to spend time with his family and walk outside while this mma guy can't even take a **** without someone wanting to get at him.


----------



## Hanzou (May 11, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Like I said before in the end did he really win? Because to me if you are asking for police protection, loosing your job, everyone hate you, perhaps even getting death threats you didn't win you lost. Martial arts isn't about just winning a physical fight it is about surviving and going home at night. So ya that taiji wantabe may have lost a fight but he gets to sleep well at night, gets to spend time with his family and walk outside while this mma guy can't even take a **** without someone wanting to get at him.



It's better to consider Xu a sacrifice for the greater good of martial arts. Yeah, his life is probably ruined, but his little exhibition is going to help facilitate the spread of MMA/Bjj into China, and hasten the decline of phony martial arts.

That can only be considered a good thing.


----------



## DanT (May 11, 2017)

If you guys watch the interview with Xu he explicitly mentions that:

-The fight does not represent MMA vs Kung Fu
-Tai Chi can be an effective style 
-The fight was about personal beef
-He was trying to prove the master was a fake


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Like I said before in the end did he really win? Because to me if you are asking for police protection, loosing your job, everyone hate you, perhaps even getting death threats you didn't win you lost. Martial arts isn't about just winning a physical fight it is about surviving and going home at night. So ya that taiji wantabe may have lost a fight but he gets to sleep well at night, gets to spend time with his family and walk outside while this mma guy can't even take a **** without someone wanting to get at him.


Looks like they won't be forgetting the fight anytime soon


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

DanT said:


> If you guys watch the interview with Xu he explicitly mentions that:
> 
> -The fight does not represent MMA vs Kung Fu
> -Tai Chi can be an effective style
> ...


People will miss that point right along with self proclaimed tai chi master title


----------



## oaktree (May 11, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> It's better to consider Xu a sacrifice for the greater good of martial arts. Yeah, his life is probably ruined, but his little exhibition is going to help facilitate the spread of MMA/Bjj into China, and hasten the decline of phony martial arts.
> 
> That can only be considered a good thing.


It's not going to change things in China people already do bjj and mma and people already do traditional Chinese arts. 
For the record xu says he has respect for taijiquan people and acknowledge that there are some who can fight.


----------



## oaktree (May 11, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Looks like they won't be forgetting the fight anytime soon


Well xu life is ruined and he has stalkers so might just get killed in an alley.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> It's better to consider Xu a sacrifice for the greater good of martial arts. Yeah, his life is probably ruined, but his little exhibition is going to help facilitate the spread of MMA/Bjj into China, and hasten the decline of phony martial arts.
> 
> That can only be considered a good thing.


I see it playing out like this as well. I don't think Tai Chi will get hit as hard as the other CMAS like Hung Ga, Wing Chun etc. People will need to be honest with why they train.  I recently told the students at at my school not to make assumptions beyond their training focus.  I also told them that training for fitness is a valid reason.  Just don't assume that they can fight or use self defense if they aren't in the sparring class where we train with that focus and practice in the context of someone attacking.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

oaktree said:


> Well xu life is ruined and he has stalkers so might just get killed in an alley.


Yep always a possibility even if he didn't fight.  I like what he did, but not how he did it.  I also understand his frustration with people teaching martial arts and claiming that the teaching is good enough for self defense.  Any other industry would have been sued for false claims.


----------



## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

oaktree said:


> It's not going to change things in China people already do bjj and mma and people already do traditional Chinese arts.
> For the record xu says he has respect for taijiquan people and acknowledge that there are some who can fight.


 1 out of 10.  He also never said to my knowledge that Tai Chi was a useless system.  He just doesn't like the fake demos and claims nor the personal insult he claimed to have gotten.  It's always amazing how things like this could have been avoided had there been an "ignore button" where one just walks away.


----------



## Hanzou (May 11, 2017)

oaktree said:


> It's not going to change things in China people already do bjj and mma and people already do traditional Chinese arts.
> For the record xu says he has respect for taijiquan people and acknowledge that there are some who can fight.



Traditional martial arts in China have been declining for decades. Again, stuff like this doesn't help matters.

Xu has respect for Taiji now, under pressure from various people. The problem is that before and immediately after the fight he was calling Taiji "useless" and not for fighting, and he then proceeded to beat his challenger in 10 seconds.


----------



## VPT (May 11, 2017)

First post here!

I'm not really sure if people here know how deep the fraud with Lei Lei actually is and what's his fame. He has performed in Chinese MA tv-shows feats that were actually faked by the producers to make it look like he had tremendous "internal skill". Take this scene of striking a melon, for example. Xu Xiaodong told that it was revealed to him being rolled on the ground before shooting: 




According to Xu's interview, Lei Lei was also totally delusional about his fighting prowess before the bout. I'm fairly confident this must be a very common disease among CMAs in China and abroad. (Luckily I have no trouble admitting of getting my butt whooped any day by any more athletic individual in competitive MAs. )

Surprisingly, contrary to this forum, everyone in my kung fu circles seems to be very happy about Xu Xiaodong breathing some fresh air and giving a reality check to TMAists: Can you _actually fight?_. Even Lü Baochun, one of Europe's most prominent and respected teachers of Baji and internal arts thinks this fight "should wake Chinese martial arts up, otherwise they will die".


----------



## Steve (May 11, 2017)

VPT said:


> First post here!
> 
> I'm not really sure if people here know how deep the fraud with Lei Lei actually is and what's his fame. He has performed in Chinese MA tv-shows feats that were actually faked by the producers to make it look like he had tremendous "internal skill". Take this scene of striking a melon, for example. Xu Xiaodong told that it was revealed to him being rolled on the ground before shooting:
> 
> ...


Welcome to MT.


----------



## Buka (May 11, 2017)

I think Tai-chi will be alive and well long after MMA has come and gone.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (May 11, 2017)

How to use Taiji only (without mixing any other CMA systems) to become a good Taiji fighter? Is it possible? IMO, it's possible. Taiji has all the basic striking tools. It can be an effective striking system if train properly. Does Taiji has all the wrestling tools? May be not. But you don't have to learn 300 throws to be a wrestler. If you can master "cloud hand - body control", you can use it to defeat your opponent over and over.

IMO, the issue is the students. Taiji attracts a special kind of students. When those students become teachers, they attract a special kind of students again. If you don't have any students who are willing to test the Taiji skill that you taught them to deal with people from other MA systems, it will be very difficult to develop reputation for your Taiji system as a "fighting art".


----------



## VPT (May 11, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How to use Taiji only (without mixing any other CMA systems) to become a good Taiji fighter? Is it possible? IMO, it's possible. Taiji has all the basic striking tools. It can be an effective striking system if train properly. Does Taiji has all the wrestling tools? May be not. But you don't have to learn 300 throws to be a wrestler. If you can master "cloud hand - body control", you can use it to defeat your opponent over and over.



It *should *be possible. 





(Just learn to practice effectively.)


----------



## Headhunter (May 11, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Traditional martial arts in China have been declining for decades. Again, stuff like this doesn't help matters.
> 
> Xu has respect for Taiji now, under pressure from various people. The problem is that before and immediately after the fight he was calling Taiji "useless" and not for fighting, and he then proceeded to beat his challenger in 10 seconds.


Declining for decades? Wow they're taking their time to die then aren't they


----------



## Steve (May 11, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Declining for decades? Wow they're taking their time to die then aren't they


That right there is comedy gold.  I was NOT expecting that in this thread!


----------



## Ironbear24 (May 11, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> It's better to consider Xu a sacrifice for the greater good of martial arts. Yeah, his life is probably ruined, but his little exhibition is going to help facilitate the spread of MMA/Bjj into China, and hasten the decline of phony martial arts.
> 
> That can only be considered a good thing.



It already has for decades. It is called Sanda. This literally did nothing but make both participants look like idiots and one of them is possibly branded for life.


----------



## Hanzou (May 11, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> It already has for decades. It is called Sanda. This literally did nothing but make both participants look like idiots and one of them is possibly branded for life.



Sanda is its own sport. MMA is a different sport than Sanda.

If you really think this did nothing, you're simply not paying attention.


----------



## Ironbear24 (May 11, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Sanda is its own sport. MMA is a different sport than Sanda.
> 
> If you really think this did nothing, you're simply not paying attention.



I said it did nothing beneficial. Sanda is a collection of styles brought together that includes striking and grappling. Much like japanese Kudo.


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## paitingman (May 11, 2017)

I am admittedly not a classical kung fu guy, but I have never understood the whole MMA vs CMA debate.

MMA is a combination of various fighting methods and techniques, and by most accepted histories of classic kung fu, it's a similar story.

A lot classical arts have a historical figurehead, who studied various arts and family systems and then adapted and combined them into this new system. mixing martial arts... someone please educate me


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> This literally did nothing but make both participants look like idiots and one of them is possibly branded for life.





Ironbear24 said:


> I said it did nothing beneficial.



Just pointing out...that first quote does not say "it did nothing beneficial."


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## Ironbear24 (May 11, 2017)

paitingman said:


> I am admittedly not a classical kung fu guy, but I have never understood the whole MMA vs CMA debate.
> 
> It is a pissing contest.
> 
> ...



 It's a pissing contest.



kempodisciple said:


> Just pointing out...that first quote does not say "it did nothing beneficial."



Context, it's all about context, Hanzo is saying it is doing something good when in fact it's the opposite.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 11, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Context, it's all about context, Hanzo is saying it is doing something good when in fact it's the opposite.


I entirely agree. I just found it really funny reading those messages one after another.


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## drop bear (May 11, 2017)

paitingman said:


> I am admittedly not a classical kung fu guy, but I have never understood the whole MMA vs CMA debate.
> 
> MMA is a combination of various fighting methods and techniques, and by most accepted histories of classic kung fu, it's a similar story.
> 
> A lot classical arts have a historical figurehead, who studied various arts and family systems and then adapted and combined them into this new system. mixing martial arts... someone please educate me



It is about what you are trying to achieve. The genisis of CMA comes from its creator. The aim is to replicate what its creator was trying to do as closely as possible.

The genisis of MMA comes from its practitioners who are trying to better the ideas of its creator.

So we have two outlooks that are morally opposed to each other.

It flares up all the time in mindset and aplication.


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## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

And the story still continues.
Tai chi v MMA: The 20-second fight that left China reeling - BBC News

Here are some more ripples and the effects that it's having.  Simply posting this information  for anyone who is curious to see where this eventually goes and what effects may have or not have on Traditional Martial Arts as a whole.  My own opinion on Traditional Martial Arts is that there are people who still practice TMAs as a fighting system.  Part of the reason why this is even an issue in CMAs is because too many legit schools try to keep their training a secret.  Fakes schools and fake masters are always willing to be seen by the public and be the self proclaimed standard of what martial arts is.  It drives me crazy that there are some really good schools out there that still try to keep stuff a secret.    I hope it changes; not because TMAs have anything to prove, but because eventually the "secret behavior" will lead to extinction of TMAs that actually train as a fighting system.  From a historical perspective there is a lot of knowledge about how the body moves and the mechanics of what our bodies do.  Other people see fighting, but for me I see a deeper lesson of things like how peripheral vision works, how the mind handles and detects motions, how the mind is able to recognize patterns even if we aren't consciously calling the shots.  I have done more research and exploration about the human body as a martial artist than most people would expect.  Much of it comes from my learning to use Martial arts to fight with.  When a person fights they not only try to understand themselves, but they also try to understand the person they are fighting against.  Things like how does my opponent moves, does his strikes land with confidence, is he aggressive or is he defensive.  When a person hits the pads, you can tell if they are angry at you, at someone else, or if they are just frustrated in the world.  You can tell if they are occupied and worried about something that they are hiding.

The more I fight the more I find myself learning more about healing, personalities, and human nature.  I personally don't think I would have had this interest without the fighting.  Just think of how long it took western medicine to figure out the health benefits of Tai Chi  and martial arts in general.  They studied Tai Chi with their degrees and doctorates only to come to the same understanding that a student in a good Tai Chi class is taught.  Unfortunately if fake schools dominate and feed people bad and incorrect knowledge then the real value of martial arts is lost.


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## JowGaWolf (May 11, 2017)

I was surprised to see this statement from the article Iink I posted above 
"Mr Xu has himself become an online celebrity and has been cashing in on his fame, making a fortune hosting Q&A session on microblogging site Weibo."
"
Viewers could pay him 1 RMB ($0.14; £0.11) to see his answers to questions like whether he thinks Wu Jing, a famed Chinese martial arts actor, has genuine battle skills.

From this question alone, Mr Xu made more than 7,500 RMB.

He has also been charging up to 18 RMB to ask him a question. On 3 May, he answered 19 questions.

But his money-making didn't last long, as his Weibo account, with more than 350,000 fans, was suddenly mysteriously blocked.

Mr Xu told BBC Chinese he doesn't know why."


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## BuckerooBonzai (May 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> And the story still continues.
> Tai chi v MMA: The 20-second fight that left China reeling - BBC News
> 
> .



Yup, when I opened up the BBC website this morning, it was there on the front page of the website.

That's what brought me to this thread.  Crazy how this is making front page news on the BBC and the NYT's.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> Crazy how this is making front page news on the BBC



Not really a surprise, we are fed up to the back teeth of politics so anything novel catches attention.


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## BuckerooBonzai (May 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I recently told the students at at my school not to make assumptions beyond their training focus.  I also told them that training for fitness is a valid reason.  Just don't assume that they can fight or use self defense if they aren't in the sparring class where we train with that focus and practice in the context of someone attacking.



This is so important to realize, esp as an instructor.  I have seen so many students think that b/c they have a certain belt that they can defend themselves or "fight" and do well in a street fight when nothing could be further from the truth.

There seems to be so many levels of this "delusion" as well, sometimes starting with the instructor themselves, in martial art training centers.

I always encourage all the students to do sparring competition events outside of their own dojang b/c at least they will be in some form of a less controlled "fight" than what they might get with their buddies in class.  Just not knowing the person on the mats with you ups the ante a bit.

But there are always those that do not want to spar even within their own dojang.  That is totally okay AS LONG AS they realize that they cannot necessarily take their training outside and try to use it effectively.

I think this whole "MMA vs TaiChi" can be a great wake up call to all instructors to evaluate their systems and what they are teaching and to make sure that their own students have a realistic idea of their true fighting ability and if they are not a fighting school, that is fine, as long as their students realize it.


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## BuckerooBonzai (May 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not really a surprise, we are fed up to the back teeth of politics so anything novel catches attention.


True enough (but who are we kidding--the news outlets are living their DREAM with all of the crazy politics--hell, they fuel the fire whenever they can to keep the raving masses going crazy about it and giving their websites more and more hits!)


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> I always encourage all the students to do sparring competition events outside of their own dojang b/c at least they will be in some form of a less controlled "fight" than what they might get with their buddies in class. Just not knowing the person on the mats with you ups the ante a bit.



Shouldn't it be the dojo's or gyms responsibility to provide such competitions?


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## BuckerooBonzai (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Shouldn't it be the dojo's or gyms responsibility to provide such competitions?


Absolutely but some organizations that I know only have "inside their own" organization tournaments where everyone pretty much knows everyone else and they do not travel to outside tournies.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> True enough (but who are we kidding--the news outlets are living their DREAM with all of the crazy politics--hell, they fuel the fire whenever they can to keep the raving masses going crazy about it and giving their websites more and more hits!)



and comedians! Some really funny stuff coming out.  As long as we can still laugh we'll survive.


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## JowGaWolf (May 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not really a surprise, we are fed up to the back teeth of politics so anything novel catches attention.


I didn't think about that. Good observation.


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## JowGaWolf (May 12, 2017)

BuckerooBonzai said:


> Absolutely but some organizations that I know only have "inside their own" organization tournaments where everyone pretty much knows everyone else and they do not travel to outside tournies.


To add. Some organizations host their own tournaments. I won karate competition medals as a kid in sparring.  It was an awesome feeling to win.  But all of these events were done in the same school and only the students from that school participated.  My medals lost meaning when I almost had my but kicked in a school fight.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I didn't think about that. Good observation.



Cheers!, We have the electioneering going on for the General Election in June, most of the newspapers have their favourite political stance they try to sell us on, the television companies are more or less neutral so are trying to prove it by covering everything and everyone so we have endless politics which is turning people off. The best way to get people back to reading the papers or watching the news programmes is novelty and what goes down especially well here is 'funny foreigners!' which this qualifies as. CMA isn't hugely well know in the UK, MMA isn't really but we have UK fighters so it's a bit more understood in that they know we bash people lol. As the election gets nearer we will get more and more 'non stories' designed to pacify us.


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## Hanzou (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I said it did nothing beneficial. Sanda is a collection of styles brought together that includes striking and grappling. Much like japanese Kudo.



Yeah, but its not the same sport as MMA. Sanda has a different rule-set, such as a distinct lack of ground grappling. Cung-Le, a Sanda champ, had to take a crash course in Bjj in order to switch the UFC for example.

As for the benefits, as Jow-Ga stated, this will hopefully push more traditional styles to step up and prove the fighting prowess of their system.


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## Hanzou (May 12, 2017)

paitingman said:


> I am admittedly not a classical kung fu guy, but I have never understood the whole MMA vs CMA debate.
> 
> MMA is a combination of various fighting methods and techniques, and by most accepted histories of classic kung fu, it's a similar story.
> 
> A lot classical arts have a historical figurehead, who studied various arts and family systems and then adapted and combined them into this new system. mixing martial arts... someone please educate me



As Drop Bear stated, the difference is that modern martial arts are constantly looking to improve their methods, while traditional arts strive to stay true to their founder's original goals (with some disciples going so far as to believe that their founder's skills were perfect).

Hence why Aikido is often considered a TMA and Bjj is considered a MMA, despite Bjj being the older system.


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## JowGaWolf (May 12, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> while traditional arts strive to stay true to their founder's original goals (with some disciples going so far as to believe that their founder's skills were perfect).


 I don't like this as well. There's value in keeping record of the founders original goals as well as the techniques, but trying to make it hold true as "this is how it should always be done," guarantees that it won't be able to adapt against a style for which the techniques were never originally designed to go against.   Ironically the reason why there are so many types of TMA is specifically for the reason that they were adapting and evolving the systems.  TMAs weren't born perfect, they were developed.  So it just makes no sense to really force a TMA system not to adapt, especially for the sake of just Tradition.  It's possible to do both.  

Imagine if this remained traditional.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> As for the benefits, as Jow-Ga stated, this will hopefully push more traditional styles to step up and prove the fighting prowess of their system.



The rule set doesn't matter because they are similar enough to get the point across. With kudo and sanda you are striking hard and grappling hard. As for the bjj I honestly see none of it with Cung Ii, he spends all of his fights on his feet. He was probably introduced to it but like the majority of fighters in today's time don't touch it.

Most TMA has done this already, the issue with you is whenever this is done you suddenly begin calling them an MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> As for the bjj I honestly see none of it with Cung Ii, he spends all of his fights on his feet.


This is one of the reasons why I like him as an MMA fighter.  He did a little BJJ, but I think it was to familiarize and not to learn. He wanted to to have of understanding of what they are doing when they are trying to do it.  If he can recognize what is happening then he can apply a non-bjj solution to deal with it.  I prefer this over the mindset that   I HAVE TO DO BJJ, in order to deal with BJJ.  I like with people can find a solution to deal with another system without going out of their own system.
He did really good with fighting with the principles of CMAs.  Fight on your feet and not on the ground.  If you fall to the ground then don't stay there.  When you see strikers go against BJJ you will almost always see that they fail to recognize the same tactic of the shoot.  Cung Li did a good job of addressing those techniques which meant he didn't spend a lot of time on the ground.  

I like people finding solutions within their own systems because to do so requires them to have a deeper understanding of their system and a familiarity of the system that they are going against.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is one of the reasons why I like him as an MMA fighter.  He did a little BJJ, but I think it was to familiarize and not to learn. He wanted to to have of understanding of what they are doing when they are trying to do it.  If he can recognize what is happening then he can apply a non-bjj solution to deal with it.  I prefer this over the mindset that   I HAVE TO DO BJJ, in order to deal with BJJ.  I like with people can find a solution to deal with another system without going out of their own system.
> He did really good with fighting with the principles of CMAs.  Fight on your feet and not on the ground.  If you fall to the ground then don't stay there.  When you see strikers go against BJJ you will almost always see that they fail to recognize the same tactic of the shoot.  Cung Li did a good job of addressing those techniques which meant he didn't spend a lot of time on the ground.
> 
> I like people finding solutions within their own systems because to do so requires them to have a deeper understanding of their system and a familiarity of the system that they are going against.



I have never done CMA, but I do train in methods heavily inspired by CMA, in the end though I am more a Japanese martial arts guy, and all of my fighting "bleeds it." Even if I try something else.

Even with hybrid martial art like shou shu karate (kenpo offshoot.) We are told to only take it to the ground if you know your opponent is alone, and most of our ne waza is more designed to get back onto your feet rather than continue on the ground.

With judo I always prefer tachi waza as well, I don't do ground fighting, I pick up enough of it to know how to avoid it and that is how I have always been trained. I have luckily never been taken the ground and always toss them or break the clinch before it happens.

It will happen though and when it does I can use the get back on your feet method.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 12, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> while traditional arts strive to stay true to their founder's original goals (with some disciples going so far as to believe that their founder's skills were perfect).


There are many skills that a stand up throwing art (such as Chinese wrestling) tries to preserve which is different from the ground game art (such as BJJ) tries to promote.

1. Mobility - the ability to take down your opponent and then take off.
2. Throwing resistance - hard to be taken down.
3. Remain balance after throwing - your throwing doesn't not affect your own balance.
4. Get back up fast from the ground.
5. Throwing combo - use one throw to set up another throw.
6. ...


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## Hanzou (May 12, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> The rule set doesn't matter because they are similar enough to get the point across. With kudo and sanda you are striking hard and grappling hard. As for the bjj I honestly see none of it with Cung Ii, he spends all of his fights on his feet. He was probably introduced to it but like the majority of fighters in today's time don't touch it.



He has a blue belt in Bjj. That's far more than just being introduced to it.



> Most TMA has done this already, the issue with you is whenever this is done you suddenly begin calling them an MMA.



Actually the issue is whenever TMAs get exposed, the fall back excuse is that they weren't really true practicioners of TMA.

I suppose that's better than the excuse that TMAs aren't designed for consensual fighting.....


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2017)

BJJ is a TMA.


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## Hanzou (May 12, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> BJJ is a TMA.



Considering it's rapid evolution, it's definitely not a TMA.  Modern Bjj is quite different than the Bjj seen in the first UFC for example.


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## Buka (May 12, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> Considering it's rapid evolution, it's definitely not a TMA.  Modern Bjj is quite different than the Bjj seen in the first UFC for example.



I'm curious about this. Do you think that's because it's evolved with more of a sport aspect to it? And do you think it's pretty much across the board in BJJ, or select to certain organizations. (don't know if "organizations" is the right word)


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## Buka (May 12, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't like this as well. There's value in keeping record of the founders original goals as well as the techniques, but trying to make it hold true as "this is how it should always be done," guarantees that it won't be able to adapt against a style for which the techniques were never originally designed to go against.   Ironically the reason why there are so many types of TMA is specifically for the reason that they were adapting and evolving the systems.  TMAs weren't born perfect, they were developed.  So it just makes no sense to really force a TMA system not to adapt, especially for the sake of just Tradition.  It's possible to do both.
> 
> Imagine if this remained traditional.



Imagine if we still had to wear those shorts?


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## drop bear (May 12, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm curious about this. Do you think that's because it's evolved with more of a sport aspect to it? And do you think it's pretty much across the board in BJJ, or select to certain organizations. (don't know if "organizations" is the right word)



Because it is created through its practitioners not so much its instructors.

I mentioned it on a thread somewhere.


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## drop bear (May 12, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It is about what you are trying to achieve. The genisis of CMA comes from its creator. The aim is to replicate what its creator was trying to do as closely as possible.
> 
> The genisis of MMA comes from its practitioners who are trying to better the ideas of its creator.
> 
> ...




Here we go. Important difference.


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## Hanzou (May 12, 2017)

Buka said:


> I'm curious about this. Do you think that's because it's evolved with more of a sport aspect to it? And do you think it's pretty much across the board in BJJ, or select to certain organizations. (don't know if "organizations" is the right word)



I do think the competitive aspect definitely has had a massive effect on it, because its the testing ground for many of the techniques. As I said before, Bjj has two major forces constantly acting on it; MMA and Competitive Bjj, and its shaped and kept in check by those forces. When Sakuruba started subbing the Gracie family for example, wrestling and catch started creeping into Bjj. Another example would be No gi grappling gaining prominence in competitive Bjj largely do to the influence of MMA.

I personally believe that the art is better for it. We just have to be careful that we don't drift too far into the sport realm.

I've pretty much only been in Gracie organizations, so I really can't comment on how it is elsewhere. However, I dabbled in 10th planet JJ and brought back a bit of the half guard game with me when I went back to Gracie JJ and no one said anything to me.


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## Ironbear24 (May 12, 2017)

Hanzou said:


> He has a blue belt in Bjj. That's far more than just being introduced to it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And how about all the "TMA" that does not fail in it? You then begin calling them MMA as we have seen it in the past. You for example call kyokyushin karate an MMA when nobody else has done that, that is literally exclusive to only you claiming it.

You did the same with kenpo as well as Judo claiming that they are modern arts because they compete or some nonsense like that.

The truth is you don't want to see any TMA get anywhere because you simply have a massive negative bias toward TMA. Further more the terms don't even make any damn sense, muay thai for example is considered by many an MMA, what the hell is so modern about an art that is over 1000 years old? What is so modern about kicking banana trees and beating people to a pulp?

And with kyokyushin, what is so modern about punching and kicking trees and smashing through boards and slabs of brick? People have been doing that **** for how many centuries? Sure kyokyushin may have come about in the late 50's but honestly the majority of it's training methods remain the same.


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## Steve (May 12, 2017)

I think kyokushin is an excellent example of a tma that has remained relevant and effective because it has embraced competition.


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## drop bear (May 12, 2017)

Steve said:


> I think kyokushin is an excellent example of a tma that has remained relevant and effective because it has embraced competition.



I wouldnt go anywhere near a Sudanese stick fighter for the same reason.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Here we go. Important difference.


This over-focus on recreating the original form of the art is a mistake, IMO. It may be useful to maintain some of the original form as a starting point for understanding the art and/or key principles, but trying to maintain exact replication is a failing strategy that also fails to acknowledge that there's always room to improve any art or system. I'm more impressed by an art that is recognizably similar and recognizably different at the same time when comparing two schools, than by one that is identical between those two schools.


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 24, 2017)

The reason you don't see tma in mma because stoking someone repeatedly in gb 13 pc1 tai yin, tai yang, or any other accupoint that causes death is not considered mma it looks horrible and doesn't sell.


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## Buka (May 24, 2017)

Oh, I don't know, I think strikes to the gb 13 pc1 tai yin causing a few deaths on televised MMA matches defintely would sell. Especially in the heavyweight division. And especially on FOX.


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## Steve (May 24, 2017)

He has a point (get it?).  Just don't kick him in his taiyang BL23.


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 24, 2017)

Tail yin is the temple point on the left siDE of the head if you got kicked there there wouldn't be a fight


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 24, 2017)

Tai yang would be on the,right temple


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 24, 2017)

Bladeer 23 I don't even think is in relation to the gallery bladder meridian


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## Grandmaster Yue men quan (May 24, 2017)

Wowe spell check on,phones really sucks


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