# Something a 9yr old brought to my attention



## Mike Hamer (Jul 17, 2008)

So I was at my Grandmas house over the 4th of July weekend, and while there I made sure to get some practice in everyday.  I was working on a spinning sidekick using a tree for a target when my little 9yr old cousin came up to me and asked, "Why even spin? Why not just kick them?"

Didnt give the question much thought at first, just telling him, "Cause I like this kick" But after he walked away it made me really think.....Why should I spin?  I havent been practicing for too long, so I myself dont _really_ know the answer.

Is there anyone out here who can give me some solid reasons why a spinning kick might be more effective than a non spinning kick?

More power? Harder to read? Faster? I dont really know...


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## Skpotamus (Jul 17, 2008)

The spinning kick has more power and is a bit easier to hide since you can chain it into a combo where you are turning, also, you are spinning back around to face your partner after completion.

The step through side kick is too slow and telegraphic to land on most living people.   

A simple lead leg sidekick doesn't have the power to really hurt someone with conditioning and the way it's taught in most MA's leaves your back exposed after you kick.  

The only real sidekick I've seen utilized successfully in MMA was Cung Le's.  He uses it like a jab to keep people off of him where he can land other kicks that do more damage.  

YMMV


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## MJS (Jul 17, 2008)

Mike Hamer said:


> So I was at my Grandmas house over the 4th of July weekend, and while there I made sure to get some practice in everyday. I was working on a spinning sidekick using a tree for a target when my little 9yr old cousin came up to me and asked, "Why even spin? Why not just kick them?"
> 
> Didnt give the question much thought at first, just telling him, "Cause I like this kick" But after he walked away it made me really think.....Why should I spin? I havent been practicing for too long, so I myself dont _really_ know the answer.
> 
> ...


 
Spinning kicks can generate some pretty good power.  However, the downside is, is that unless its set up properly, there is a chance it could be telegraphed, leaving you open for your opponent to jam you in the middle of the kick or move away enough for it to miss, but move back in quick enough for them to counter you as you're completing the kick.


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## stickarts (Jul 17, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> The spinning kick has more power and is a bit easier to hide since you can chain it into a combo where you are turning, also, you are spinning back around to face your partner after completion.
> 
> The step through side kick is too slow and telegraphic to land on most living people.
> 
> ...


 
The spinning back kick worked nicely for me in cases where I got knocked back and started to get turned into a spin already. Instead of trying to spin back toward to opponent which takes too long, you go with the flow and just keep spinning into a spin technique such as a spinning backfist or kick. In this case its faster and more powerful than trying to turn back and face the opponent.

Ooops...I meant to quote Mike Hamer's post.


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## MJS (Jul 17, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> A simple lead leg sidekick doesn't have the power to really hurt someone with conditioning and the way it's taught in most MA's leaves your back exposed after you kick.


 
I'd say it would depend on the situation.  I've had some pretty good success with this kick, as have others that I know.  I've caught quite a few people off guard as they moved in.  Of course, followups to the kick are important as well.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 17, 2008)

The spinning kick builds up speed and momentum as well as power. Not saying that a straight side kick dose not have power and speed but it seems that  spinning adds to the power


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## stickarts (Jul 17, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> A simple lead leg sidekick doesn't have the power to really hurt someone with conditioning and the way it's taught in most MA's leaves your back exposed after you kick.
> YMMV


 
I have used the lead leg sidekick successfully and have been able to drop opponents with it. It also is a good kick for controlling distance.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks for the replies everyone, I think I understand the purpose behind a spinning kick a little better now


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## MJS (Jul 17, 2008)

stickarts said:


> I have used the lead leg sidekick successfully and have been able to drop opponents with it. It also is a good kick for controlling distance.


 
I can attest to this as I have a) seen Mr. Shekosky spar, b) was a student and still am a good friend of his, and c) been on the receiving end of some of his kicks.


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## stickarts (Jul 17, 2008)

MJS said:


> I can attest to this as I have a) seen Mr. Shekosky spar, b) was a student and still am a good friend of his, and c) been on the receiving end of some of his kicks.


 
Thank you.


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## bluemtn (Jul 17, 2008)

The upside to a spinning kick is that it gives more power behind the kick- true...  On the other hand, it can take slightly longer to pull off than a regular kick, and there's the problem of telegraphing it.  You need a touch more distance between you and the opponent with the spinning kick, to execute it well.

However, like you, I like spinning kicks too.


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## zDom (Jul 17, 2008)

It has more range, too, since the front foot is the pivot instead of the back.

And it is your fastest option for a rear-leg side kick.

FWIW, many systems (including mine) don't actually do a spinning side kick, but a turning back kick.

I know it sounds just like semantics, but there ARE significant differences that make the turning back kick faster than the spinning side kick.


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## Ninjamom (Jul 17, 2008)

zDom said:


> FWIW, many systems (including mine) don't actually do a spinning side kick, but a turning back kick.
> 
> I know it sounds just like semantics, but there ARE significant differences that make the turning back kick faster than the spinning side kick.


Agreed.  In fact, any time you think a spinning side kick would fit (in sparring, in self defense, in a combo of other moves), you could just as easily do a turning back kick, and it would arrive on target faster.  The added benefit to a turning back kick is that it is useful even when the opponent advances and tries to 'jam up' your kick - in fact, I find it most effective against the overly-aggressive opponent who likes to crowd too much.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 17, 2008)

Different tools for different jobs.

A spinning back kick can work great on a opponent that is circling towards your lead side and moving forward.  Timing is the key to landing it, and its certainely not one of your primary techniques, but it can land pretty well if used properly at the right time.


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## Kacey (Jul 17, 2008)

Most kicks can be performed in a variety of ways - standing, stepping, lead leg, rear leg, spinning, jumping, skipping, sliding - it all depends on the kick, the target, and the circumstances available in which to get the kick to the target.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 17, 2008)

Now im not sure if what I'm talking about is a spinning sidekick, or turning sidekick :S


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## MA-Caver (Jul 17, 2008)

Mike Hamer said:


> So I was at my Grandmas house over the 4th of July weekend, and while there I made sure to get some practice in everyday.  I was working on a spinning sidekick using a tree for a target when my little 9yr old cousin came up to me and asked, "Why even spin? Why not just kick them?"
> 
> Didnt give the question much thought at first, just telling him, "Cause I like this kick" But after he walked away it made me really think.....Why should I spin?  I havent been practicing for too long, so I myself dont _really_ know the answer.
> 
> ...


Funny how earlier today I was thinking along the exact same lines. 
I used to be able to do it and do it well. In fact my best spin-back kick was to the face of someone 6'1" in the parking lot of some bar/dive in Washington D.C. 
But now-a-days I haven't done it for a long time. In fact the last time I did it was roughly 3 years ago on a wave-master at a friend's garage. I hit (ok grazed) the upper most target alright and landed on my ***. Just getting too old for that sort of thing, so it's removed from my "bag of tricks"... which is getting woefully light these days. 

Granted a successful SBK is going to be awfully damaging. But in my experience it's more of a "finishing move" than something in the middle. Now if you're lucky you could do it as a first strike move. You know, the guy standing there challenging you and running off at the mouth and you turn as if to ignore him and walk away and whip right around and put your "left/right foot on the right/left side of his face"... But other than that, you'd need the room to do it in first place i.e. parking lot, open dance floor, basketball floor ,front/back yard or something along those lines. You might get away with it in somebody's living room, provided you don't take out a standing floor lamp or anyone else. 
I personally just don't have a use for it. In fact I stopped using it long before I couldn't effectively do it anymore. :idunno: I just concentrated my efforts on NOT getting into situations where I might need to use it.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 17, 2008)

stickarts said:


> I have used the lead leg sidekick successfully and have been able to drop opponents with it. It also is a good kick for controlling distance.


 

I meant for my post to say in MMA competition against conditioned athletes.  I assumed that since it was in the MMA competition forum that the original poster was asking in that context.  
The only person I've ever seen use the lead leg sidekick successfully in MMA was Cung Le, and he uses it as a jab to keep people away.  I haven't seen him hurt anyone with it.  

Against regular people, it can work quite well, I've used it to stop people coming in and follow up with something hard, although I have dropped people in non mma competitions with it.  The down side to it in mma is that a well conditioned athlete will often times take the kick so they can seize it and get a takedown, or get your back.

YMMV


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## shesulsa (Jul 17, 2008)

As a kid, I came close to having a fist fight with another kid.  He looked scared and turned - I thought he was going to run. I went forward to run after him and I found a foot in my gut. It *hurt.*

I wonder how many other people fell for that fake?


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## MA-Caver (Jul 17, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> As a kid, I came close to having a fist fight with another kid.  He looked scared and turned - I thought he was going to run. I went forward to run after him and I found a foot in my gut. It *hurt.*
> 
> I wonder how many other people fell for that fake?


 :wavey: when I was a kid too.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 17, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> As a kid, I came close to having a fist fight with another kid. He looked scared and turned - I thought he was going to run. I went forward to run after him and I found a foot in my gut. It *hurt.*
> 
> I wonder how many other people fell for that fake?


 


hmmm....now theres another good use, never thought of that!


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## stickarts (Jul 18, 2008)

I have seen that used in sparring and we also have a self defense technique that does exactly that.


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## zDom (Jul 18, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> The down side to it in mma is that a well conditioned athlete will often times take the kick so they can seize it and get a takedown, or get your back.
> 
> YMMV



A GOOD kick may just cave in their rib cage. But they don't really need to worry about running into that in MMA. 

Except maybe Cung Le or GSP &#8212; pretty sure those guys have the technique and timing to effectively use it should the opportunity present itself.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 18, 2008)

zDom, why do you suppose that they don't need to worry about it in mma?  Is it due to conditioning, or the skill level of the people it's being thrown at being able to defend against it?  

How good of a kick does it take to cave in a rib cage?  So far, GSP hasn't been able to do it with a spinning side kick, Cung Le hasn't been able to do it with his side kicks (which were arguably the best side kicks in San Shou).

I think that in SD, it can be extremly useful and even break ribs (seen it done before), especially against an average person.  In MMA competition, where you're likely facing a well conditioned athlete with sound skills, it doesn't work nearly as well and leaves you open to having your back taken or being taken down.    

Again, YMMV


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## zDom (Jul 21, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> zDom, why do you suppose that they don't need to worry about it in mma?  Is it due to conditioning, or the skill level of the people it's being thrown at being able to defend against it?
> 
> How good of a kick does it take to cave in a rib cage?  So far, GSP hasn't been able to do it with a spinning side kick, Cung Le hasn't been able to do it with his side kicks (which were arguably the best side kicks in San Shou).
> 
> ...



I can't provide you with an objective description of "how good of a kick" it would take. But, subjectively speaking, MOST kickers in MMA that I've observed just don't have the power and focus to land the really crushing kicks.

And for those who DO have that ability  guys like GSP and Le  the skill level of their opponents does indeed make landing a really nice kick much more difficult, for the reasons you've pointed out.

There is still the chance, though* and we might see it one day  that one of these guys WILL land a really sweet kick and do significant damage. It can happen to even skilled fighters. A fighter may rush in THINKING he's going to "get the guys back" as he turns and end up eating the kick instead.

There's worse than just a broken rib here and there. There was a guy many years back, Roger Stamp, who dislodged an opponent's organ (forgot which organ it was ...) with a kick while sparring in class. I'll ask my instructor about it when I get a chance; he was there.


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