# SKK form applications



## RevIV

SK101 was asking for a thread for the applications of the forms.  So here you go.  My only request is that we start with the kata's first.  The pinans are modified shotokan forms and i have seen more variations in these forms over the years then i have in  the kata's.

Kata one - first kick and punch - going on the offense, attacking person's knee then face as they bend over.  (beginning of kata 2 is the defense for the beginning of kata one).  so theres the first section.
In Peace,
Jesse
sk101, top of the thread page there is a tab that says new thread--- thats the one you want to push to start something.


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## DavidCC

Can we get a short video clip that shows the move we are discussing?  Not necessarily the entire form, just the isolated piece...


"(beginning of kata 2 is the defense for the beginning of kata one). "  I never noticed that!  fun for class tonight!

-D


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> SK101 was asking for a thread for the applications of the forms. So here you go. My only request is that we start with the kata's first. The pinans are modified shotokan forms and i have seen more variations in these forms over the years then i have in the kata's.
> 
> Kata one - first kick and punch - going on the offense, attacking person's knee then face as they bend over. (beginning of kata 2 is the defense for the beginning of kata one). so theres the first section.
> In Peace,
> Jesse
> sk101, top of the thread page there is a tab that says new thread--- thats the one you want to push to start something.


Interesting mine is just the opposite...inside l/knife hand block, left ball kick followed by right front punch then alternate to the other side...


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## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> Interesting mine is just the opposite...inside l/knife hand block, left ball kick followed by right front punch then alternate to the other side...


 
I have never seen it done with the block.  On SGM Pesares old 60's circa dvd it shows the kick punch drill as just that a drill they did going up and down the dojo.  
The next move turn CCW left foot forward cross block up downward hammer movement with left had, Right front punch chest area then step with Left foot CW to a horse stance at 10'oclock.  Bunkai for me- Blocking overhand club or hammer strike,  downward hammer is a strike to bladder or groin, as head buckles down strike face with right and when the left foot moves their is a sweep in there (which means when you step out with X block your left foot must be to the outside of opponents right leg.)
In Peace
Jesse
(the next section has more variations that i have seen throughout the different schools- i do the SGM Pesare Version)


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## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> I have never seen it done with the block. On SGM Pesares old 60's circa dvd it shows the kick punch drill as just that a drill they did going up and down the dojo.
> The next move turn CCW left foot forward cross block up downward hammer movement with left had, Right front punch chest area then step with Left foot CW to a horse stance at 10'oclock. Bunkai for me- Blocking overhand club or hammer strike, downward hammer is a strike to bladder or groin, as head buckles down strike face with right and when the left foot moves their is a sweep in there (which means when you step out with X block your left foot must be to the outside of opponents right leg.)
> In Peace
> Jesse
> (the next section has more variations that i have seen throughout the different schools- i do the SGM Pesare Version)


Vey close to mine Jesse..
on the turn we do the overhead crossblock, inverted hammer (originally taught to the groin later moved to the ribs) to the ribs, followed front punch to the stomach/lower dantien....


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## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> Vey close to mine Jesse..
> on the turn we do the overhead crossblock, inverted hammer (originally taught to the groin later moved to the ribs) to the ribs, followed front punch to the stomach/lower dantien....


 
I had the front punch to the stomach the entire time myself,  then i cracked one of my workout partners to see where they went and their head was right in line to were my original stomach strike was..  side note -- when doing it as a seperate self defense technique i do more of an upward thrust punch to make his head pop back up for the final sweep.
Jesse


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## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> Can we get a short video clip that shows the move we are discussing? Not necessarily the entire form, just the isolated piece...
> 
> 
> "(beginning of kata 2 is the defense for the beginning of kata one). " I never noticed that! fun for class tonight!
> 
> -D


 
it is a great line drill-- one person does the kick punch the entire length of the dojo while the other is doing the double blocks- at end of building, switch and the other drives the person back.


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## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> it is a great line drill-- one person does the kick punch the entire length of the dojo while the other is doing the double blocks- at end of building, switch and the other drives the person back.


 
Hey, I've done that drill ... LOL

Our starts off horse stance. Left front ball kick, step down to left foot forward fighting stance, right punch. Right front ball kick, step down to right foot forward fighting stance, left punch. All strikes right down the center.

... are these movements the same?


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## Jdokan

Next position:
Pivot to 11:00 hands gathered in fist over fist Facing the 9:00 opponent...As he delivers a front kick we step outside the kick doing a crossblock (left hand closest to you)  The right grabs the ankle (the left hand stays on the foot applying additional pressure), twist your upper body CW while sliding back drawing the opponent in off balance and turning their back to you,  slide in and deliver Iron Butterfly to their spine.  Turn on guard to the 12:00 position hands in the overhead cranes protecting position....


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## DavidCC

Jdokan said:


> Next position:
> Pivot to 11:00 hands gathered in fist over fist Facing the 9:00 opponent...As he delivers a front kick we step outside the kick doing a crossblock (left hand closest to you) The right grabs the ankle (the left hand stays on the foot applying additional pressure), twist your upper body CW while sliding back drawing the opponent in off balance and turning their back to you, slide in and deliver Iron Butterfly to their spine. Turn on guard to the 12:00 position hands in the overhead cranes protecting position....


 
please please please video tape that!!!!!!


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## Jdokan

Next sequence:
The oppenent attacks with a right/left punch...
Step forward with right foot meeting the attackers force disrupting their balance; double sword hand strikes: the L/hand hits the inside of the forearm the R/hand strikes the bicep tendons (I've seen this striking the tendons near the shoulder, I've also seen it hitting by the elbow...),  The left hand does a cross palm blocking the opponents left punch...The R/hand does a spear poke to the carotid artery.  Turn into a L/foot forward Cat satnce performing a R/hand cross palm block, Step forward (L/foot) driving L/palm to chin/jaw line, R/front ball kick to midsection....


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## 14 Kempo

Seems to me as if a whole section of the form was skipped. 

After the original kick, punch, kick, punch ... my previous school turns into cat stance 1800d to face 0600 applying an overhead crossblock, then stepping out into left foot forward fighting stance and using #8 block followed by right front punch.

Then we turn to 1030 or 1100 ... might just be SKK in the West


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## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> Seems to me as if a whole section of the form was skipped.
> 
> After the original kick, punch, kick, punch ... my previous school turns into cat stance 1800d to face 0600 applying an overhead crossblock, then stepping out into left foot forward fighting stance and using #8 block followed by right front punch.
> 
> Then we turn to 1030 or 1100 ... might just be SKK in the West


No we covered that....you apparently do the same thing or close enough...To  recap...
Starting at 12:00 defend attacker with Kick/punch Kick/punch, turn overhead Xblock inverted hammer/front punch...turn to th 45 angle Block the 9:00 attackers kick absorb his strike hit him and turn to the next attacker 12:00...the last post dealt with him/her.....


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## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> No we covered that....you apparently do the same thing or close enough...To recap...
> Starting at 12:00 defend attacker with Kick/punch Kick/punch, turn overhead Xblock inverted hammer/front punch...turn to th 45 angle Block the 9:00 attackers kick absorb his strike hit him and turn to the next attacker 12:00...the last post dealt with him/her.....


 
Ahhh ... missed it ... my bad

Not the first time, won't be the last.


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## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> No we covered that....you apparently do the same thing or close enough...To recap...
> Starting at 12:00 defend attacker with Kick/punch Kick/punch, turn overhead Xblock inverted hammer/front punch...turn to th 45 angle Block the 9:00 attackers kick absorb his strike hit him and turn to the next attacker 12:00...the last post dealt with him/her.....


 
Ahhh ... missed it ... my bad

Not the first time, won't be the last.


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## Jdokan

Been there myself at the same bar...buying rounds......think we all have no biggie....


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## Jdokan

Last sequence;
      Pivot on the R/foot towards the 12:00 position block an incoming R/hand attack; #2 block w/snapping backpunch to the face ( I target the cheekbone ridge under their right eye). Draw up Fist over Fist L/side; Double Dragon strike to the right, draw up on the right FoF on the right and Double Dragon strike to the left...Xblock and end the form......


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## JTKenpo

I was hoping some of you might chime in with some of your applications of the SKK forms.  Here is some applications that I view in 1 kata.  I left out all of the small intricacies within the transitions from one sequence to the next, but hit the main bullet points.  Again this in no way says that this is the only or the right applictions, just my interpretation.

Applications
1 Kata​Sequence 1: Left front kick right reverse punch (repeated opposite side)
Draw offline by chambering kick, then using quarter beat timing kick to the groin and as the head comes forward catch him with the punch.
Sequence 2: Cross block upward, left low block, right reverse punch
Attack is over head club followed by right front kick.
Cross block upward to elbow immediately followed (no chamber) by left low block to parry kick and while attackers foot is still in the air deliver right punch on a downward 45 angle to body (bladder or groin) causing attacker to loose balance.
Sequence 3: Cross block downward, grab, lift, and throw
Attack from the left, low front kick
Cross block strikes ankle of attacker then grabs. Pull attacker forward as you bring feet together then drive them back off balance with the step back to horse.
Sequence 4: Circle hands counter clockwise coming to rest with left hand forming knife hand at face level and right arm over head in upward block position with open hand palm facing out
Attack is double wrist grab
Grab is made, circle hands counter clockwise bringing left hand under attackers left arm at triceps area (making contact about the 2 0clock mark). Continuing the motion and pressing left knife hand against attackers elbow releasing hands.
Sequence 5: Double knife blocks, open cup and saucer (hidden hands) right spear poke
Attack is side club (roundhouse punch)
Left knife is to wrist / fore arm and right is to bicep. Exaggerate the motion of the left hand coming to open hand cup and saucer so that you execute a left finger strike in a slicing motion (cordisans fan). Right spear to throat.
Sequence 6: Right Dropping palm, left palm heel, right front kick
Attack from the rear grabbing the shoulder.
Turning 180 deg and drawing into left cat knock attackers hand away with right dropping palm. Follow up with left palm to the face and right front kick.
Sequence 7: Simultaneous back fist side kick (repeated on either side)
Wrist grab from the side
Drawing into cup and saucer releases the wrist grab and chambers back fist. Side kick buckles the knee and as the head comes forward strike the temple with the back fist.


I look forward to hearing different views.

JT


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## marlon

sequence 2:  step into the opponents center and drive cross"blocks" (they serve as a cover) upward into the throat (great if you have a wall behind them or are on the ground), then follow up strikes.  or block an arm the rt hand controls around the wrist or foearm and the lt downward block /strike becomes a force that coupled with the action of the rt hand creates an arm bar...there needs to be an adjustment of the waist to help this arction.

marlon


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## marlon

sequence 3:  the big dramatic horse stance is unnecessary, the prinicple to the drop your wieght.  kick or punch or grab it does not matter left dropping hammer or knife with a close rt guard then trap and "pull" to the right and mid level as the left leg sweeps the opponents leg, kick or stomp to finish, the hand changes give a good wrist lock that can easily lock out the opponents shoulder.
just some thoughts and variatins i have tersted out from one kata
respectfully,
marlon.
nice thread.


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## RevIV

sequence 2:  after the kick punch combo is complete from 1, as you turn to the left. your left gaurd should be up (making it a block) cross strike to neck, left hammer to groin, right thrust punch chest level (which will hit the face since they are bent over in agonzing pain from the strike to the groin) finish with a left sweep as you trainsition yourself to sequence 3.  

Last sequence i do the way GM Pesare does it, so i do not have a simo. back fist side kick - i have a neck break in there.  cover it later.
Jesse


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## DavidCC

Seq 2
"Attack is over head club followed by right front kick.
Cross block upward to elbow immediately followed (no chamber) by left low block to parry kick and while attackers foot is still in the air deliver right punch on a downward 45 angle to body (bladder or groin) causing attacker to loose balance."

What happened to the arm with the club in it after you pulled your left away for the low block and your right away for the punch?

clubs are heavy and don't tend to hand in mid-air.  swinging a heavy club with intent pulls the weight onto the right foot, so how could I even kick with it?


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Seq 2
> "Attack is over head club followed by right front kick.
> Cross block upward to elbow immediately followed (no chamber) by left low block to parry kick and while attackers foot is still in the air deliver right punch on a downward 45 angle to body (bladder or groin) causing attacker to loose balance."
> 
> What happened to the arm with the club in it after you pulled your left away for the low block and your right away for the punch?
> 
> clubs are heavy and don't tend to hand in mid-air. swinging a heavy club with intent pulls the weight onto the right foot, so how could I even kick with it?


 

Would love to hear your views on the sequence...two ways to disarm an attack by pain and by technique.  This is a disarm by pain, hyperextend someones arm and lets see if they can keep their hand clenched.  As for after the punch he will be on his butt.  Again disagree agree I don't care but offer something of your own not just...


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## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> sequence 2: step into the opponents center and drive cross"blocks" (they serve as a cover) upward into the throat (great if you have a wall behind them or are on the ground), then follow up strikes. or block an arm the rt hand controls around the wrist or foearm and the lt downward block /strike becomes a force that coupled with the action of the rt hand creates an arm bar...there needs to be an adjustment of the waist to help this arction.
> 
> marlon


 

Love this...the first time I heard this type of application with the cross blocks was from Prof. Ferriera's bunkai on his one pinion....smiled for days.


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## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> Would love to hear your views on the sequence...two ways to disarm an attack by pain and by technique. This is a disarm by pain, hyperextend someones arm and lets see if they can keep their hand clenched. As for after the punch he will be on his butt. Again disagree agree I don't care but offer something of your own not just...


 
I agree, disagreeing is fine but then give your input.  I cant handle the club then kick thing myself though.  the club attacker would be to close to kick.
Jesse


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## marlon

sequence 5:  against a left backfist followed by a right hook punch (just to keep it in the form, the principle is good in many different places.  the double knives block the backfist, press the lt arm down slightlyand spear over tyhe rt hook punch deflecting it and locking up your opponent's arms.  You need sensitivity to make this work ...not hard blocking.
respectfully,

marlon


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## fnorfurfoot

RevIV said:


> I agree, disagreeing is fine but then give your input. I cant handle the club then kick thing myself though. the club attacker would be to close to kick.
> Jesse


We treat it as a right club/hammer strike/over-the-top punch followed by a left punch to the stomach.  The overhead cross block for the first and the left downward block to the second.  This will expose his ribs for the final front punch at the downward angle.


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## RevIV

fnorfurfoot said:


> We treat it as a right club/hammer strike/over-the-top punch followed by a left punch to the stomach. The overhead cross block for the first and the left downward block to the second. This will expose his ribs for the final front punch at the downward angle.


 
Never heard that bunkai all the way through, with a Left punch, i like it.  There has been a constant flashback for me as to the way certain things were emphasized when i first learned the katas.  It was the rule of moving and always turning with your gaurd up.  So after the kick punch combo in the beginning of 1 kata it was always turn Left, with left gaurd up, then step forwards left cross block up.  The reasoning for that constant gaurd was because you never knew when someone was going to throw that surprise haymaker.  Using that thought, is how i transition to the cross block being a strike to the neck/face/temples (whichever), and use the gaurd as the initial block of a surprise haymaker.
Jesse


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## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> I agree, disagreeing is fine but then give your input. I cant handle the club then kick thing myself though. the club attacker would be to close to kick.
> Jesse


 

The reason I still see validity in this attack is reactionary positioning and varied timing.  The cross block stops the club attack which forces the attacker to pull back grabbing his elbow.  Since he intended on doing harm to me anyway he proceeds by kicking at me while still grabbing his elbow.  The reactionary positioning of the strike to the elbow brings both his hands to his midsection and the varied timing allows for him to pull back and then attack again.  I don't mean a long pause just enough for him to readjust.  Not trying to convert you just explaining why I still see validity here.  I think it also shows the difference between form and application.  Using the application of the form looks very different then performing the kata without a partner.


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## JTKenpo

I also just wanted to quickly cover my definition of a club.  Any inanimate object that can be weilded with one hand which does not have a point or edge.  ie empty beer bottle (still intact), stick, wooden dowel, any  sort of piping.


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## JTKenpo

I really enjoyed everyones view on 1 kata.  Lets see if we can get the ball rolling on two kata.  Again I am only putting down one basic application per sequence and leaving out any of the intricacies in the transitions from one sequence to the next so that we can all share our views.  


Applications
2 Kata​
Sequence 1: Step back using opposite hand dropping palm into chicken wrist and follow up front kick.
Attack: cross side wrist grab
Grab is made to left hand, left foot steps back drawing left hand to chamber (turning attackers elbow up) executing right dropping palm to elbow. Track up the arm with chicken wrist to face and follow up front kick.
Sequence 2: Right side kick to 4:30, scoop, spear, knife to 1:30.
Attack: two attackers, one at 1:30 the other at 4:30
Execute combo #7 to 4:30 returning your kick to face attacker at 1:30. From right punch step back right executing a left open hand scooping block (dragon tail, waiters hand.) immediately flowing into a left spear to throat. Step in with right knife to temple
Sequence 3: see 1 kata oruse as hip throw
Left hand controls attackers right hand, right arm hooks under left armpit. The motion of drawing into cat is used to thrust hip in toward attacker throwing them over.
Sequence 4: chain punches
Left outward block to left punch exposes ribs for right punch
I actually see similarities between this sequence done as a whole and the AK technique Twirling Wings used against a rear choke. Basicly replace punches with roundhouse elbows.
Sequence 5: Back kick to 12 oclock, side kick to 9 oclock, step up to horse grab and punch..
Self explanatory
More of a balance lesson to me, kicking in two different directions without putting your foot down.
Look forward to your views.JT


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> Would love to hear your views on the sequence...two ways to disarm an attack by pain and by technique. This is a disarm by pain, hyperextend someones arm and lets see if they can keep their hand clenched. As for after the punch he will be on his butt. Again disagree agree I don't care but offer something of your own not just...


 
Techcnially, I wasn't disagreeing, just asking questions where your description left out some details... 

But if I were to offer something, I would say that the attack sequence you initially proposed (right overhead club/rigth kick) is not realistic becasue the swinging of a club with intent precludes the follow-up kick with the same side foot because of the weight distribution.

I would also offer my opinion that the idea of blocking at the elbow or tricep in order to cause a club disarm is dangerous because, should the hyperextension of the elblow actually happen, he will be releasing that heavy blunt object to continue its travel and that could take it right into your head.  That is one of a handful of reasons I think that this is not a technique I would use even if it did mechanically work as you describe (which it may or may not, I am not sure - swinging a rattan stick yes, but try a brick, is the elbow aligned the same?).


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## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> I agree, disagreeing is fine but then give your input. I cant handle the club then kick thing myself though. the club attacker would be to close to kick.
> Jesse


 

"kata 1 sequence 2" this is the bunkai we teach:
attacker punches to the face, block upwards with cross block, trapping the wrist and grabbing with the right hand.  Pivot to your right as you draw the trapped right hand to your right hip and striking the attacker with left hammerfist to groin or bladder.  Release trapped hand, pivot back to your left using left outward block to clear the arm, opening the front of the body for the punch to solar plexus.


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> The motion of drawing into cat is used to thrust hip in toward attacker throwing them over


 
While I do agree that some of the turns on the kata can be interpreted as throws, I'm not sure this is one of them.  There is no indication in the form for the proper motion of the right hand after the strike to the neck (crossing the body coming up from under his arm). And much more importantly, drawing the left foot to the right does not produce any hip movement!  Finally, after the knife hand to the neck, the right foot doesn't move, you pivot on it, so again, there is no indication of any of the proper mechanics of a throw in this particular turn.  now, the turns  for attackers 4 and 7 in pinan 1 & 2 (assuming you do them similar to ours).. now there's a good throw.

Mostly the rest of what you wrote is also how we do it.  Slightly different application on the opening, sounds interesting.  Somebody once pointd out to me that the first few moves of K2 are defending against the first few moves of K1.  It's true!  Upwards crane wrist to block punches.


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## JTKenpo

I was originally taught the same about the openings of 1 and 2 kata, I point it out now and then I just don't see much merit in it.  Again, I offered the throws as discussion points.  When doing a hip throw over your right hip yes the intitial movement is with your right foot to align your body correctly but the second movement is sliding your left foot in, which is where I see the similarity in this motion.  Thanks for your input.


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> "kata 1 sequence 2" this is the bunkai we teach:
> attacker punches to the face, block upwards with cross block, trapping the wrist and grabbing with the right hand. Pivot to your right as you draw the trapped right hand to your right hip and striking the attacker with left hammerfist to groin or bladder. Release trapped hand, pivot back to your left using left outward block to clear the arm, opening the front of the body for the punch to solar plexus.


 

Left outward block in 1 kata?  It's in Swift tigers that way but I have never seen it in 1 kata.


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## JTKenpo

Sorry swift tigers is lt outward block then downward block.


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> Left outward block in 1 kata? It's in Swift tigers that way but I have never seen it in 1 kata.


 
Our versions of the kata series and pinan series are different in more than one sequence.  

Our kata 1 starts likes this:

-left kick (to left half moon), right punch
-right kick (to rt hm), left punch
-turn CCW to 4:30, drawing to left cat facing 4:30 w/ cup&saucer right
-step out to left half moon facing 4:30 executing overhead xblock, then left downward block (right to elbow position), the left outward block with right thrust punch
-pivot CW to face 12...


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## JTKenpo

Very cool, I've never seen that version.


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## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> Sorry swift tigers is lt outward block then downward block.


 
Maybe we are talking about a different part, but your first turn towards 6'oclock is an upward cross block (forward lean stance) downward block (back lean stance) the lean back forwards with an outward Lt knife hand block, rt thrust punch.
Jesse


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## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> Our versions of the kata series and pinan series are different in more than one sequence.
> 
> Our kata 1 starts likes this:
> 
> -left kick (to left half moon), right punch
> -right kick (to rt hm), left punch
> -turn CCW to 4:30, drawing to left cat facing 4:30 w/ cup&saucer right
> -step out to left half moon facing 4:30 executing overhead xblock, then left downward block (right to elbow position), the left outward block with right thrust punch
> -pivot CW to face 12...


 
So you turn with no gaurd and your hands in a cup in saucer to start? I liked your bunkai that you had earlier with the trap but now you are taking away some vitals of a SKK kata (turn w/ gaurd up) It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger)  I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
Jesse


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## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> Sorry swift tigers is lt outward block then downward block.


 
Sorry JTKenpo -  You said swift tigers and i went right to circle of the tiger which is Prof. Cerio's version of 1 kata,  if you were truly thinking of swift tigers are you refering to the part were you do a LT outward block, LT downward Block and then a right Thrust punch?  If so sorry i got confused.
Jesse


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## RevIV

just bringing this one back because we seem to be doing an overlap in the current thread.
Jesse


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## fnorfurfoot

RevIV said:


> So you turn with no gaurd and your hands in a cup in saucer to start? I liked your bunkai that you had earlier with the trap but now you are taking away some vitals of a SKK kata (turn w/ gaurd up) It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger) I have found that *most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position*.
> Jesse


I agree.  That is how we treat the cup and saucer positions at the end of 1 Kata.  When you draw your right leg together with the left and bring your hands to cup and saucer on your left hip, that is a trap against a left handed punch from the right side of your body.  Then we throw a right back fist to the face with a right side kick to the knee.  Then it is repeated on the other side against a right punch.


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## MJS

RevIV said:


> just bringing this one back because we seem to be doing an overlap in the current thread.
> Jesse


 
Hey Jesse!  For the sake of discussion, I could merge both threads seeing that they're on the same topic.

Mike


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## RevIV

sounds like a good idea to me Mike. merge away


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## RevIV

fnorfurfoot said:


> I agree. That is how we treat the cup and saucer positions at the end of 1 Kata. When you draw your right leg together with the left and bring your hands to cup and saucer on your left hip, that is a trap against a left handed punch from the right side of your body. Then we throw a right back fist to the face with a right side kick to the knee. Then it is repeated on the other side against a right punch.


 
Absolutely, Same as when you do Palm over Palm as in 4 kata, statue of the crane and han/hon/suki/tsuki however we are spelling it now.  Traps and wrist techniques were taoght to me. Take these out or add them in at the wrong time, changes the entire original technique.  Now don't get me wrong, do what you want, make the forms work for you and your students, but remember the past and what it was meant for originally, that way you won't have as much overlapping as we do now.
In Peace,
Jesse


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## MJS

Just a quick note.  There were 2 threads in this section, both discussing the same topic.  I merged both together.

Mike


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## JTKenpo

Thanks for the earlier thread, that is great!!

Jesse, yeah when I heard the downward block outward block I thought of swift tigers but then realized it is actually outward then downward.  I agree with the guards up throught out the katas as well.  I was always told that the katas were fighting sets so guards up throughout when not striking or trapping.

JT


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## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> Originally Posted by *DavidCC*
> 
> 
> _Our versions of the kata series and pinan series are different in more than one sequence. _
> 
> _Our kata 1 starts likes this:_
> 
> _-left kick (to left half moon), right punch_
> _-right kick (to rt hm), left punch_
> _-turn CCW to 4:30, drawing to left cat facing 4:30 w/ cup&saucer right_
> _-step out to left half moon facing 4:30 executing overhead xblock, then left downward block (right to elbow position), the left outward block with right thrust punch_
> _-pivot CW to face 12..._
> 
> So you turn with no gaurd and your hands in a cup in saucer to start? I liked your bunkai that you had earlier with the trap but now you are taking away some vitals of a SKK kata (turn w/ gaurd up) It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger) I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
> Jesse


 
No, not no guard  I could go into the application of the turn and the movement of the left and right hands there but that's not the part we were talking about so I just left that out to focus on the "3 blocks and punch" sequence. 

At the most basic level the movement of the hands during the turn is also found in the 16 point blocking system, if that helps any  

also picture this - you begin this turn with left arm extended after the left punch to 12, but instead of that extended arm being the end of a punch what if that wrist is being held by an attacker at 12 (cross hand or same side or even both hands)? there are some very intersting applications of that same movement that have nothing to do with any attacker at 6 or 430.... the transitions between "sequences" often hold the most interesting applications... especially if you aren't too literal (ura waza)




> &#20998;&#35299;&#12377;&#12427; Bunkai suru (verb) to break down; to disect; to take apart.
> &#24540;&#29992;&#12377;&#12427; Oyo suru (verb) to apply; to put to practical use.
> 
> &#20998;&#35299;&#12288;Bunkai
> Analysis; dissection or to take apart.
> 
> &#24540;&#29992;&#12288;Oyo
> Application
> 
> Okuden waza: Hidden/secret techniques
> 
> Omote: Obvious - Omote waza, the obvious techniques that keep the
> shape of the kata.
> 
> Ura: Hidden - Ura waza, hidden techniques.
> Techniques that are not so obvious. Form and embusen can change from
> the kata.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> At the most basic level the movement of the hands during the turn is also found in the 16 point blocking system, if that helps any
> 
> Nope, sorry that does not help.  I do not know the 16 point blocking system.  At which generation was that added?  When i go to Matt Barnes webpage there are a few blocking systems on there that i do not do, I believe most of them were added by the USSD guys.  I have incorporated the Dragon Blocking system that Prof. Ingargiolla has added to his system.
> Jesse
> ps-  i am still looking for someone who has the sunflower blocking system that i learned through Master Bagley.


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> At the most basic level the movement of the hands during the turn is also found in the 16 point blocking system, if that helps any
> 
> Nope, sorry that does not help. I do not know the 16 point blocking system. At which generation was that added? When i go to Matt Barnes webpage there are a few blocking systems on there that i do not do, I believe most of them were added by the USSD guys. I have incorporated the Dragon Blocking system that Prof. Ingargiolla has added to his system.
> Jesse
> ps- i am still looking for someone who has the sunflower blocking system that i learned through Master Bagley.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yeah... I was wondering about that after I posted it.  The specific thing I was referring to is an left inward parry that feeds the attacking hand into a trap (cup&saucer) on the right.
> 
> I'm looking for an expert on the 10 point BS...
> 
> 
> "BS" lol
> 
> is that a "freudian slip" hahaha?
Click to expand...


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> It seems that your teacher has merged the two (kata 1 and Circle of the tiger)


 
I couldn't say for sure where the differences come from.  Got a vid of Circle of the Tiger I could watch?




RevIV said:


> I have found that most cup and saucers are signicant of some sort of trap not just a starting position.
> Jesse


 
absolutely. For me, in this example, it is the *end* of a "sequence" in between the "sequences" described originally in this thread.  Any series of moves (not even necessarily in the specific order as practiced in the kata) might contain an application, and they often overlap because one movement might be 2 different things in 2 different applications.  In fact I don't think we ever consider C&S a starting position for any application.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Not done particularly well, but here are a couple YouTube vids on the versiion that I know ... done by persons unknown to me.

http://www.youtube.com/v/yiBKxXVme5s&hl=en

http://www.youtube.com/v/2fqXoxqHx7E&hl=en


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> yeah... I was wondering about that after I posted it. The specific thing I was referring to is an left inward parry that feeds the attacking hand into a trap (cup&saucer) on the right.
> 
> I'm looking for an expert on the 10 point BS...
> 
> 
> "BS" lol
> 
> is that a "freudian slip" hahaha?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Expert i am not with the 10 point but i do a lot of drills and techniques from the 10 point BS.  THe first 4 blocks i do off of each hand turning them into a lot of wrist and arm locks (my blocks are the X's up and down, not the double blocks to the sides.  I do use those sometimes though)
> Jesse
Click to expand...


----------



## JTKenpo

The last couple of posts have been in regard to the subtltys of the transitions between the sequences.  I agree this is where the higher level of understanding a form comes into play and you can (as we do) spend a lifetime finding answers to these subtletys.  

10 point applications - from the cup and saucer into circling the hands out to the sides and executing the double tigers claws.  From a double wrist grab, circling the hands crosses the attackers arms at the elbows the tigers claws become regrabs and the push becomes a throw.


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Not done particularly well, but here are a couple YouTube vids on the versiion that I know ... done by persons unknown to me.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/v/yiBKxXVme5s&hl=en
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/v/2fqXoxqHx7E&hl=en


 
thanks, those look nothing like any forms we do :/

I'll see if I can put together a quick video in the basement tonight after my nephew's b-day party.


----------



## JTKenpo

Anybody wish to share ideas on 3 kata?


----------



## DavidCC

Its' the last one I have learned so far.  I would love to see some video of it to see if we are doing it differently (we usually are).


----------



## JTKenpo

Here is an old write up I haven't even proof read in awhile to be honest.

Three Kata​
From front position, right foot out on elbows with open hands. Right foot steps back to 6 oclock and draw left foot into cat stance while circling hands counter clockwise until right hand is in upward open block and left hand is equal to face with arm at 45 deg.

From left cat stance half moon in right with right open hand scoop block, then left open hand scoop block, continue with right hand spear poke low and then left spear poke high. Follow up with left front kick.

From left half moon stance turn 180 deg and draw into right cat stance while executing right scoop block. Step out with right foot into half moon stance and execute a right back punch. Sweep right foot counter clockwise 360 deg while lowering your height zone by bending knees coming to rest facing 6 oclock in a squatting position. Push off floor and jump into right double front kick landing in left half moon stance. Immediately deliver right back kick landing in left half moon stance.

From left half moon stance execute right low block inward palm up while chambering left hand to right shoulder then deliver left low block outward palm down. Right foot steps up on line and pivot 90 deg to 3 oclock. Repeat low blocks. From left half moon stance turn into twist stance facing 12 oclock. Right foot steps back to half moon stance and execute right then left tigers claw returning right elbow straight back, then draw to left cat stance and anchor elbows with tiger claws still formed. From left half moon stance turn into twist stance facing 9 oclock. Right foot steps back to half moon stance and execute right then left immortal man finger strikes while returning right elbow straight back, then draw into left cat while anchoring elbows with immortal mans still formed.

From left cat stance step left foot out into half moon stance and grab outward with left hand. While balancing on left leg execute right front kick, back kick, side kick landing in horse stance facing 9 oclock. Immediately cross left foot in front of right and circle hands in front counter clockwise coming to rest in twist stance facing 6 oclock with right open hand in upward block and left open hand face level with arm at 45 deg. Execute left side kick and return kick to previous position, step back right into side horse and return hand position as in twist stance. 

From left side horse stance execute combination #26. After executing right knife hand slide right foot back toward 3 oclock and pivot body clockwise coming to rest in right half moon stance facing 12 oclock. Immediately execute right low block followed by left front punch.
End form by half mooning backward with right foot into horse stance, crossing open hands above head, right foot meets left into front position. Bow.


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> Anybody wish to share ideas on 3 kata?


 
Sure, first and foremost, I see it as a form against four attackers, all at 90 degree angles (front, back, left and right). The form starts with an assailant grabbing your shoulders/lapels/throat, you draw back into a cat stance, breaking the assailants balance slightly and loosening the grip, then break the hold with the upward movement with your arms, then move inward knocking the arms out of the way and attacking with spearhand pokes to the throat and solar plexus, followed immediately with a kick to drive him/her back.


----------



## JTKenpo

Another application I use with the oppening sequence is to extract each "side", one block one strike.  Use the right scoop with the left spear...left to right wrist grab, turn right palm up as in the scoop regrabbing attackers arm and pulling down into chamber forcing attacker to bring foot forward opening his center line for left spear to throat. Same for other "Side" except spear to groin.  It gives category completion with blocking and striking hand as well as high strike and low strike.

JT


----------



## DavidCC

I recognize certain pieces but our #3 is significantly different.


----------



## DavidCC

OK, this is kata 3, just a quick outline, I'm sure I've left out 100 important details  but hopefull you can get an idea of how it is different .


> Bow/Salute
> overhead x-blcok with open hands, right foot steps out to horse, then elbow position with kiai hands still open.
> step back with right foot to left T stance, strike to 12 with 2 spear hands (rt to eyes, lt to throat)
> draw left foot to cat stance facing 12 as hand circle CCW to "C-Guard" (our C-guard is also diff than you describe, but close)
> step left foot out into left half-moon. #8 knifehand block (left), then #1 knifehand block (right) left to elbow pos.
> step fwd with right to right HM as you double spear-hand (lt to solar plexus, rt to throat).
> Guards up, Left front ball kick to SP, step down forward into left HM. Pivot CW to face 6 and draw right ft to cat stance, with circling double parries clock-wise/outward.
> Step right foot to right HM, then left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos.
> Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick. Look to 3, draw left foot into left cat facing 3, right at elbow pos, left hand by right ear.
> Step left foot out to left HM facing 3. With dynamic tension in arm execute #8 block (left downward outward).
> Step right foot to left, crossing arms in front of checst with tiger claw fingers. look left to 12, step right foot to 6, draw left foot into left cat facing 12. Circle hands forward and down (CCW?) into guard position.
> Step left foot out to left HM facing 12, then step right foot to meet left.
> bring hands up in front of checst, crossing 'immortal man' fingers. Look left to 9, roll crossed fingers, in, down, out then pull left to knife outward hand block, right to upward block, as you step right to 3 and pivot left to left cat facing 9.
> Maintining position of left knife block (representing grabbing the wrist of the attacker), kick to 9, 3, then 12. Step right foot down to 12 into left side horse facing 6.
> Step left foot behind right into twist stance facing 12, hands to C-guard (right hand high). Left flamingo, "boxing" guards facing 6, left side blade kick to knee at 6, then go back to twist stance with C guard.
> Pivot CCW out of twist stance to left HM facing 3 with #2 knifehand block (combo#26), maintaining position of left hand indicating grabbing the wrist of the attacking arm.
> Leopard fist to Solar Plexus, step right foot to 1030 (twist stance) with upward leopard paw to tricep (Heart 2 if you like that kind of thing!).
> Pivot CCW, strike with left outward elbow to Solar Plexus and right claw to groin. Scoop downward grabbing attacker's right ankle with left hand.
> As attacker falls, step to 3 with rt foot into right half moon facing 3, downward palm heel to testicles KIAI
> Pivot to face 12, dropping right knee to floor. Rise to right flamingo with upward crane's wrist, then downward palm heel as you step down with right foot.
> Strike with right rising crane wrist again,with Kiai.
> Salute/Bow


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> OK, this is kata 3, just a quick outline, I'm sure I've left out 100 important details  but hopefull you can get an idea of how it is different .


 
Although they are very different they definately have the same root.  Many of the key points of the form are the same.

JT


----------



## KENPOJOE

RevIV said:


> SK101 was asking for a thread for the applications of the forms. So here you go. My only request is that we start with the kata's first. The pinans are modified shotokan forms and i have seen more variations in these forms over the years then i have in the kata's.
> 
> Kata one - first kick and punch - going on the offense, attacking person's knee then face as they bend over. (beginning of kata 2 is the defense for the beginning of kata one). so theres the first section.
> In Peace,
> Jesse
> sk101, top of the thread page there is a tab that says new thread--- thats the one you want to push to start something.


 
Hi folks!
I realize this post is from quite awhile ago & might have had someone else mention this. I was always taught that Kenpo/kempo is one of the most "groin obsessed" styles of martial arts.
Kata 1/First Chinese Form/Kempo Kata 1 as I was originally taught it in the early 1970's started with a Left Front ball kick to the...balls?LOL! Seriously, it was always taught as a groin kick, never a knee kick.
The intent of the initial kick is to stop the forward momentum of a charging attacker and cause them to bend forward into the subsiquent right front two knuckle punch/reverse punch to opponent's bridge of their nose.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

Jdokan said:


> Interesting mine is just the opposite...inside l/knife hand block, left ball kick followed by right front punch then alternate to the other side...


Hi folks!
Dear Jdokan,
There is no knife hand block in the original version of kata 1.
Perhaps you are doing a Nick Cerio influenced version of the form.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
PS:I realize this post was posted long ago, just replying to it now,sorry.


----------



## KENPOJOE

RevIV said:


> I have never seen it done with the block. On SGM Pesares old 60's circa dvd it shows the kick punch drill as just that a drill they did going up and down the dojo.
> The next move turn CCW left foot forward cross block up downward hammer movement with left had, Right front punch chest area then step with Left foot CW to a horse stance at 10'oclock. Bunkai for me- Blocking overhand club or hammer strike, downward hammer is a strike to bladder or groin, as head buckles down strike face with right and when the left foot moves their is a sweep in there (which means when you step out with X block your left foot must be to the outside of opponents right leg.)
> In Peace
> Jesse
> (the next section has more variations that i have seen throughout the different schools- i do the SGM Pesare Version)


Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
When you when you move CCW initially, Do you "pivot to the rear" [I.E.: From the right half moon stance [facing 12],take your left rear foot and draw to a left cat stance [I won't be specific as to whether it's a 45 or 90 cat because Early Kenpo & SKK are normally not that specific](facing 6) then step out into the left half moon stance?
The application for the sequence of actions can be multiple.
A. a right reverse punch to the face followed by a step through front kick
B. A left step through punch to the face followed by a reverse punch to the groin
C. a right overhead Club followed by the afore-mentioned reverse punch or left kick/and or knee.
There are other variation of attacks but this gives you a basic idea.
In the original version I was taught, it was an upward cross block/downward block/reverse punch
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## LawDog

KenpoJoe is correct, many of the kicks were to the groin. Later on many of the SKK first / second generation instructors changed many of the groin kicks to front kicks to the mid-section.
The early kata's / pinons were very basic when combaired to today's versions. Tactics are tactics, simple or complex.


----------



## marlon

Hello, i have had problems with my internet, so forgive me for still discussing 1 kata:
moving from sequence 1 to 2 to 3  a left shoulder grab with left hook follow up:  allow yourself to be turned and sink your wieght onto the back leg (this can unbalance the person grabbing your shoulder) the are come up to cover your head (a straight spine is essential to your structural integrity) shoot into the forward stance slipping underneath the attackers arm with an inverted hammer to the inner thigh and the thrust "punch" goes past the thighs and grabs at the ankle on the way to sequence 3 cup and saucer.

marlon


----------



## marlon

the end of 1 kata cup and suacer to a back fist with a blade kick:  Use a circular motiopn with both hands to trap and twist the arm of the attacker, use a ccw rotation of your body to add wieght to your trap and to turn your targets away from the attacker (cup and saucer) the right hand could extend tyo the eyes while in motion, then bring up your knee as you bring the arm down strikling the elbow then blade kick to the attackers knee (same leg as the knee strike as this was the crane / flamingo for the kick) then back fist to the temple.

marlon


----------



## marlon

2 kata.  sequence 2 to sequence 3:  block a punch with an inverted ridge then extend towards the face with a spear using the same hand hook the arm as you step forward with the knife hand strike to the cerrebelum using the other hand  then press on the tricep or elbow as you twist into a "cat" stance = arm bar

marlon


----------



## marlon

2 kata "chain punches"  in close quarters if the attacker gains position "above" you the outward movement of the "block " can unbalance them laterally making it much easier to push forwards with your wieght and a palm / punch with the opposite hand.  The effect can be dramactic as most people will root thier position against a linear force but the movement of the "block" changes this and allows you to up root them.

Marlon


----------



## marlon

Before we go on with more applications does anyong want a discussion on the principles these forms teach?  Are there any?  Should this be another thread?  Or is it a waste of time to bring it up?

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> Before we go on with more applications does anyong want a discussion on the principles these forms teach? Are there any? Should this be another thread? Or is it a waste of time to bring it up?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Marlon, I don't think any discussion of principle could be construed as a waste of time.  I think it would make a great thread!!

JT


----------



## DavidCC

I just noticed that we have a significant "insert" in kata 1 at this point:



> Sequence 4: Circle hands counter clockwise coming to rest with left hand forming knife hand at face level and right arm over head in upward block position with open hand palm facing out
> 
> Sequence 5: Double knife blocks, open cup and saucer (hidden hands) right spear poke
> 
> Sequence 6: Right Dropping palm, left palm heel, right front kick


 
We do the move described as 'sequence 4'.  We don't do 5, instead we do the following before picking back up with this same 6:

look to 9 step right foot forward (1030), turning to face 9, dropping hands.  As you plant in horse stance facing 9, strike upwards with both ridgehands, the downward knife-hands.

Right outward block, right inward palm-heel rake and follow-through to left shoulder, right outward block with left inward rake and follow-through to right shoulder

Right knife hand (to attacker at 12), rolling hammer fist to groin (@12), rolling backfist to face (@12), upward palm heel to 12

Draw left foot to cat, pivoting to face 730

then 

Sequence 6: Right Dropping palm, step out of cat into left HM facing 730, left palm heel, right front kick, right spear hand to eyes, step-through twist stance to 730 right rear claw to groin.  Hard to describe, simple motion in practice.
.......


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> Sure, first and foremost, I see it as a form against four attackers, all at 90 degree angles (front, back, left and right). The form starts with an assailant grabbing your shoulders/lapels/throat, you draw back into a cat stance, breaking the assailants balance slightly and loosening the grip, then break the hold with the upward movement with your arms, then move inward knocking the arms out of the way and attacking with spearhand pokes to the throat and solar plexus, followed immediately with a kick to drive him/her back.


 

I have never been a fan of the second sequence in 3 kata...Pivot to the rear, execute right back punch facing 6 o'clock then turn counter clockwise 360 deg lowering hieght zone until you can touch the ground then jump into right scissor kick (which I don't teach, I teach a hopping front kick then a back kick. I don't believe a scissor kick to be an effective tool.) The application I have had explained to me I like less then the actual movements. Two attackers one in front (12 oclock) and one behind (6 oclock). Rear attacker grabs shoulder to turn you around and sucker punch you. As this happens knock his hand away with outward block then strike with back punch. At that moment the attacker at 12 oclock attempts a bear hug which you duck under turning towards 6 oclock and execute scissor kick defeating your two foes at the same time....ok if you can't hear the sarcasm trust me its there...This is the way it was explained to me and I would love to hear a different view. Just as a side note I do enjoy 3 kata and like all other aspects of the form but not this section.

Jt


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> I have never been a fan of the second sequence in 3 kata...Pivot to the rear, execute right back punch facing 6 o'clock then turn counter clockwise 360 deg lowering hieght zone until you can touch the ground then jump into right scissor kick (which I don't teach, I teach a hopping front kick then a back kick. I don't believe a scissor kick to be an effective tool.) The application I have had explained to me I like less then the actual movements. Two attackers one in front (12 oclock) and one behind (6 oclock). Rear attacker grabs shoulder to turn you around and sucker punch you. As this happens knock his hand away with outward block then strike with back punch. At that moment the attacker at 12 oclock attempts a bear hug which you duck under turning towards 6 oclock and execute scissor kick defeating your two foes at the same time....ok if you can't hear the sarcasm trust me its there...This is the way it was explained to me and I would love to hear a different view. Just as a side note I do enjoy 3 kata and like all other aspects of the form but not this section.
> 
> Jt


Not my favorite form at all -- In fact if Matt gets into it just trying to figure out where this form comes from is a mystery -- The double front and back kick is prevelent in TKD and Tang Soo do which are influences within our Kempo starting at least as far back with Kajukenbo.
Our Bunkai's to the moves above-
A) - GM Pesare version -  After back punch do a fake run away, turning 180 drawing them in and then turn back to 6 o'clock and doing jump kick 
B) - Fred Bagley - After Back punch, right sweep pulling person off balance, to a full 360 turn jump kick
C) - Newer version (possibly a USSD thing from the person it was passed down from ((Prof. Rash)) - after back punch,  drop low putting weight towards right foot, Left iron broom sweep to the jump kick.  
C) is how i teach most of my more athletic and younger students and (A) for my -- how should i put it -- not so limber people--  
In Peace,
Jesse


----------



## Jdokan

I've seen a few version from the old USSD/FVSSD/MASTERS/ETC days..
Here's what I morph'd...
I complete the right back punch, pivot the 180 facing that opponent I do an open hand/willow block blocking a head punch, my weight has been transferred to a forward stance, My r/foot does a cresent kick to their forward leg (which ever one stepped in) then shoot an immediate sidekick to the most available target...(while doing this I add a r/hand covering hand/clawing strike-during the cresent..not the sidekick), pivot to position where the sisor kick opponent is and I do a l/sword block & a stepping stoll kick striking with the l/foot....
I agree the sissor kick..though great for training ( I guess) unrealistic....I don't use it for #14 anymore either...


----------



## DavidCC

Apparently we have completely rmeoved that entire squat/jump/kick section and replaced it with

...step forward left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos. 
Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick. 

This sequence of movements is also our empty hand defense combo 14.


----------



## DavidCC

I spent a couple of hours with a high ranking karate guy this last weekend and I have to tell you, the analysis and "bunkai" of kata that we are doing is childsplay compared to what they do.  I don't want to write a novel here but the way they apply something as simple as "inward block / punch" to 6 different attacks, each sequence ending with the attacker disabled, was astounding when compared to the work, as good as it is, in this thread.

I'm trying to find time to go learn some more fomr the guy at his school.  I only wish he did the pinan forms.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> I spent a couple of hours with a high ranking karate guy this last weekend and I have to tell you, the analysis and "bunkai" of kata that we are doing is childsplay compared to what they do. I don't want to write a novel here but the way they apply something as simple as "inward block / punch" to 6 different attacks, each sequence ending with the attacker disabled, was astounding when compared to the work, as good as it is, in this thread.
> 
> I'm trying to find time to go learn some more fomr the guy at his school. I only wish he did the pinan forms.


 
what system does he do?  Plus show him the Pinans and i bet he will be able to give his ideas to the movements you are doing. Remember show any form to 5 different Masters from 5 different systems and you will end up with 5 different interpretations.
Jesse


----------



## John Bishop

DavidCC said:


> I spent a couple of hours with a high ranking karate guy this last weekend and I have to tell you, the analysis and "bunkai" of kata that we are doing is childsplay compared to what they do.  I don't want to write a novel here but the way they apply something as simple as "inward block / punch" to 6 different attacks, each sequence ending with the attacker disabled, was astounding when compared to the work, as good as it is, in this thread.
> 
> I'm trying to find time to go learn some more fomr the guy at his school.  I only wish he did the pinan forms.



That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems.  Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.  
It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata.  I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank.  When we tested we did 1 form.  The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring.  So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.    
I personally prefer a more live type of training.


----------



## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
> It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
> I personally prefer a more live type of training.


 
I am not very familiar with The kajukenbo Forms that were created by Sijo and the other founders, but my question is, do the forms have the self-defense techniques in them that are taught within your system?  Or, are they just forms and then you do self defense?  I know myself and others out here are trying to understand their forms better so they can teach the forms as a long fight but also have the ability to break them down into, as you say, self defense sets as independent parts of their system.  I would think that if we could reinforce our forms by using the techniques as independent self-defense situations it would be better for our students learning curve.
Thank You,
Jesse


----------



## John Bishop

RevIV said:


> I am not very familiar with The kajukenbo Forms that were created by Sijo and the other founders, but my question is, do the forms have the self-defense techniques in them that are taught within your system?  Or, are they just forms and then you do self defense?  I know myself and others out here are trying to understand their forms better so they can teach the forms as a long fight but also have the ability to break them down into, as you say, self defense sets as independent parts of their system.  I would think that if we could reinforce our forms by using the techniques as independent self-defense situations it would be better for our students learning curve.
> Thank You,
> Jesse



Contrary to what some now claim, James Mitose only taught 1 form, "naihanchi shodan".  William Chow taught it sparingly.  Sijo Emperado learned it from Chow.
The 14 Palama Sets of Kajukenbo were developed by Sijo and his brother Joe Emperado (# 4 & #7).  #11 closely resembles "naihanchi shodan", and has the nickname "dance of death".  The rest of the katas were designed from techniques that were practiced as individual techniques. 
They mostly teach individual techniques, instead of a series of techniques.  Let's use Palama Set 8 as a example.  It's called the kicking kata, because it's all kicks.  It develops balance and kicking ability, but doesn't really follow the common mindset of defending against different attackers.  It just helps you practice different kicks.  Most of the katas are like that, practicing techniques, instead of multiple attacker scenarios.  
Our self defense techniques are different because of the combination of stand up techniques with a heavy usage of judo and jujitsu techniques.  Things you won't see in our katas.  
In our katas, a  kick is a kick, a block is a block, a punch is a punch, etc.  So we spend little or no time on kata application.  In fact about the only time I discuss the application is when a student asks "what this for"?  
I've seen the SKK "Pinans" and katas, and don't recognize any that are from Kajukenbo.  I've heard some SKK people say that the horse stance with a upward X block is from Kajukenbo, but it's not done the Kajukenbo way in the SKK katas.  So when I see it, it's just a horse stance and X block.   If it was done the Kajukenbo way, it would be done in a series of 5 movements, not 2. 
I can see where application is more important in the SKK Pinans since they come from common Okinawan/Japanese systems. 
But in my case with Kajukenbo katas, their mostly practiced to develop proficiency in technique, stance, and balance.  Like punching and kicking in the air.  
Timing and movement is developed from the various punch counters, knife counters, grab arts, sparring, etc.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Apparently we have completely rmeoved that entire squat/jump/kick section and replaced it with
> 
> ...step forward left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos.
> Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick.
> 
> This sequence of movements is also our empty hand defense combo 14.


 
David this is an adaptation of combo#24.  It makes sense that your instructor uses it as #14 as he has taken the scissor kick out of 3 kata (comb#14 originally is a left knife block then right scissor kick).  Which brings me to the question what is #24 in your system?

JT


----------



## JTKenpo

Sequence 3 I find two seperate sets in and see it more as a training tool then hard core fighting application, although I think the second set has an interesting app. 

Set 1 - left downward block step forward pivot to 3 oclock and repeat. In my opinion this section is pointing out what AK calls the inward downward palm up block (the right hand coming across the body closed fist as double factor for the left downward block). It also points out what AK calls the long cover step (step forward without a half moon and then pivot 90 deg.). I am sure that with different foot manuevers these points would change and the section app. would change, but this is the way I teach this section.

Set 2 - Pivot to twist stance executing right tiger claw to face, step back right with left tiger claw to face (repeat with immortal man toward 9 oclock). I like this quite a bit because up to this point we haven't seen the twist stance in our forms. I think this section starts to explore the twist stance as an in place direction change. i also believe this is pointing out how environment can dictate your movements. I don't have the space or time initially to step to fighting stance so I pivot in my stance and strike.

Looking back I'm not sure if this post is application or principle. Oh well.

JT


----------



## Jdokan

JTKenpo said:


> David this is an adaptation of combo#24. It makes sense that your instructor uses it as #14 as he has taken the scissor kick out of 3 kata (comb#14 originally is a left knife block then right scissor kick). Which brings me to the question what is #24 in your system?
> 
> JT


I thought the same....


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> David this is an adaptation of combo#24. It makes sense that your instructor uses it as #14 as he has taken the scissor kick out of 3 kata (comb#14 originally is a left knife block then right scissor kick). Which brings me to the question what is #24 in your system?
> 
> JT


 
I don't think I know #24 yet, and I will have to head over to Matt B's site to see what he has for it.  Interesting about #14 and kata 3 ... I'll grab my "Master's Guide" and check our write-up on it...


----------



## DavidCC

John Bishop said:


> That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
> It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
> I personally prefer a more live type of training.


 
In SKK we have both types, 5 pinan and 5 "kata", so we get to do both.

Although the abstract / applied movements of the more traditional pinan are intersting and fun to tease out, it's less productifve than focusing on the techniques.

Oh and he was Sensei John Kerker of Isshin-Ryu.  The good Isshin ryu.


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:


> That's because most traditional karate styles are kata driven systems. Instead of designing self defense sets as independent parts of their systems, they extract much of their techniques from their katas.
> It's not uncommon to spend years perfecting one kata. I know when I was training in shotokan, we did 1 form per rank. When we tested we did 1 form. The scoring on testing was 33% kata, 33% basics, 33% sparring. So 1/3 of your score was based on the performance of one kata.
> I personally prefer a more live type of training.


 

Master Bishop is bang on here.  If you take the time to compare your techniques with thier bunkai i really do not think many things will surprise you!!  

Marlon


----------



## marlon

the first few movements of 3 kata (before the kick) are a great example of lock up techniques... for wrists, elbows and shoulders.  Unlike some others i like this form (my favorite under belt form is a toss up btwn staute of the crane and two man fist set). and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!

marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!

marlon[/quote]

That is funny.  I went the exact opposite way.  I started teaching 26 to 3rd Brown students because of 3 kata, rather then have them wait to 2nd brown.

JT


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!
> 
> marlon


 
That is funny. I went the exact opposite way. I started teaching 26 to 3rd Brown students because of 3 kata, rather then have them wait to 2nd brown.

JT[/quote]

Same with me.
Jesse


----------



## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> In our katas, a kick is a kick, a block is a block, a punch is a punch, etc. So we spend little or no time on kata application. In fact about the only time I discuss the application is when a student asks "what this for"?
> I've seen the SKK "Pinans" and katas, and don't recognize any that are from Kajukenbo. I've heard some SKK people say that the horse stance with a upward X block is from Kajukenbo, but it's not done the Kajukenbo way in the SKK katas. So when I see it, it's just a horse stance and X block. If it was done the Kajukenbo way, it would be done in a series of 5 movements, not 2.
> I can see where application is more important in the SKK Pinans since they come from common Okinawan/Japanese systems.
> But in my case with Kajukenbo katas, their mostly practiced to develop proficiency in technique, stance, and balance. Like punching and kicking in the air.
> Timing and movement is developed from the various punch counters, knife counters, grab arts, sparring, etc.


 
Thank you for your response to my question.  I like finding out things within other peoples arts.
Jesse


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> and the way it ends with #26 is fun because i teach the form before i teach 26 and wait to see how many students notice it!!
> 
> marlon


 
That is funny. I went the exact opposite way. I started teaching 26 to 3rd Brown students because of 3 kata, rather then have them wait to 2nd brown.

JT[/quote]

i didn't partly because i tend not to change the system i was taught unless something is grossly off.  just me, though.
marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

I wanted to share my thoughts on the application just before #26 is executed.

Circle hands counter clockwise while crossing left foot in front of right into twist stance followed by left side kick.

This is probably my favorite sequence in the form.  My application is from a double wrist grab.  Circling the hands, as in many forms, brings one of the attackers hands under his opposite armpit while pulling them off balance, escaping the wrists, and finally driving them away.  Now as they fall off balance execute the side kick.  The twist stance is used to gain distance without giving up position.

Jt


----------



## JTKenpo

How do you apply the beginning of four kata?

From double wrist grab, circle the hands striking the outside of the elbow with the left outward block, grabbing the shirt and pulling into the right uppercut followed by left backfist to temple.


----------



## Hand Sword

Could be an arm break of an incoming punch, grab hair (or whatever), pull into uppercut, backfist to nose/face.


----------



## marlon

tighten / shorten the moves and soften your touchand you can get a great shoulder lock here even from an incoming punch

marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

After all the block and spears and chain punches there is a movement where you pivot to 9 oclock execute a right dragon tail block (as in 10 point) circle hands upward in an upside down heart shape, grab and right front kick.  

I have seen footage of Prof. Cerio doing this form and the stance he works here is extremely low, leading me to believe his intention is to scoop a kick.  The heart shape with the hands can be a clearing motion or an escape from a double wrist grab smacking the wrists together at the apex.   Followed by the grab and pull into the front kick.  This is all well and good done seperately but doesn't make sense as a whole.  Can anyone elaborate on their understanding of this section?


----------



## JTKenpo

After all the block and spears and chain punches there is a movement where you pivot to 9 oclock execute a right dragon tail block (as in 10 point) circle hands upward in an upside down heart shape, grab and right front kick. 


Defense against a right front kick attackers hands on guard - sweep the front kick outward with right dragontail block (waiters hand).  With the downward sweep of the right hand forming the semicircle of the upside down heart shape parry the attackers right hand out of the way and both hands grab attackers throat.  Right front kick to the inside of attackers left leg (rear leg) and use the turn as a take down.


----------



## JTKenpo

Anyone care to start 5 kata?


----------



## marlon

the beginning sequence of 5 kata is great to show how finding the center of the opponent and redirecting it can allow you to send them flying either while advancing or retreating.  also another example of kempo fighting while technically moving backwards.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

Five kata seems to summarize a lot of what we have seen in 1-4.  There are movements taken from the previous four forms which leads me to this assumption (and yes it is only an assumption).  But, that does bring in an interesting question.  If five kata summarizes 1-4 then why is there six kata?  I know that SGM Pesare also has a seven kata which is said to also be an earlier version of swift tigers and I do not know if there are any numbered katas in his system after that.  In six kata we also see pieces of other forms and sets (10 point) and # combos as well (#4, 19, 26).  For me atleast the last two numbered katas seem to be a summary of the system, not as a whole but very important aspects atleast.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> Five kata seems to summarize a lot of what we have seen in 1-4. There are movements taken from the previous four forms which leads me to this assumption (and yes it is only an assumption). But, that does bring in an interesting question. If five kata summarizes 1-4 then why is there six kata? I know that SGM Pesare also has a seven kata which is said to also be an earlier version of swift tigers and I do not know if there are any numbered katas in his system after that. In six kata we also see pieces of other forms and sets (10 point) and # combos as well (#4, 19, 26). For me atleast the last two numbered katas seem to be a summary of the system, not as a whole but very important aspects atleast.


 

honestly i would not put 5 kata in the same category as 6 kata.  6 kata could be looked at as a summary of the system up till then or more likely a training tool to help with flow using the combinations the combinations (there is also #1 and # 6 in there)and it is a great competition form blending a traditional feel into a kempo flavour.  i enjoy 5 kata but 6 is far ahead \of it....just my thoughts.  Jesse might help us out as 6 kata was created by GM Pesare in the first place...

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> honestly i would not put 5 kata in the same category as 6 kata. 6 kata could be looked at as a summary of the system up till then or more likely a training tool to help with flow using the combinations the combinations (there is also #1 and # 6 in there)and it is a great competition form blending a traditional feel into a kempo flavour. i enjoy 5 kata but 6 is far ahead \of it....just my thoughts. Jesse might help us out as 6 kata was created by GM Pesare in the first place...
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I absolutely agree that 6 kata is far ahead of 5, as it should be or they would both be taught at the same rank.  When I said 6 was a summary of the system I thought it was implied up to that point.  If it was a summary of the entire system there would be no need to go any further.  I didn't mention #1 only because it is slightly different in the form and I didn't mention #6 because well its a front kick.  Again, there are many different levels to the actual combo but.....its a front kick.  Many different forms could have the front kick isolated and called #6.  IMHO


----------



## JTKenpo

Actually the more I think of it the less I see it as #6 in 6 kata.  It could be that we are talking about different sections and it could also be that we do the form differently.  The section I believe you are referring to is after #1 is executed cross step and roll hammers down (as in pinion opening) then front kick.  I was taught to keep the hammers down while executing the front kick due to the application that you are striking simultaneously with both hammers outward and downward as well as the front kick (three different targets).  If this was combo #6 I would have guards up.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> Actually the more I think of it the less I see it as #6 in 6 kata. It could be that we are talking about different sections and it could also be that we do the form differently. The section I believe you are referring to is after #1 is executed cross step and roll hammers down (as in pinion opening) then front kick. I was taught to keep the hammers down while executing the front kick due to the application that you are striking simultaneously with both hammers outward and downward as well as the front kick (three different targets). If this was combo #6 I would have guards up.


 

interesting i was taught it with guards up after a knuckle roll as in a pinan beginning...

Marlon


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> I absolutely agree that 6 kata is far ahead of 5, as it should be or they would both be taught at the same rank. When I said 6 was a summary of the system I thought it was implied up to that point. If it was a summary of the entire system there would be no need to go any further.
> 
> i understand.  i just do not see 5 kata as any kind of summary of the system.  However, i am open to having you show me how it is!
> 
> good discussion
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


----------



## RevIV

I am going to do a generalization of my thoughts + opinions, as well as answering a few of the questions that have been asked on page 8 of this thread.   SGM Pesare created 5,6,+7 and was the person who brought Statue of the crane into the system.  If my memory serves me right it was a holiday or 100 degrees out or so, and SGM Pesare was pleased at the students who showed up for class so he taught them Rohai (statue of the crane)  this is from him not me so dont shoot the messenger.  As for combo #6, well sorry but after the knuckle roll that is a Kempo roundhouse kick (ball roundhouse) arms down, either to assume the release of the bear hug or actually holding the persons arms down and kicking them in the heart(directly from the creator).  Similiar to the ending in 5 kata after the flying kick and crane stance, the right spear hand strike to the throat and then the clear (which is presented as actually grabbing the arms as person falls back and then drawing them in for the front kick)  If we are going to say that every front kick is combo 6, then combo 7 is in 2 kata.  combos in 6 kata as far as i know are, 1,4,19,26.
Jesse


----------



## RevIV

JTkempo,  I do like the double hammer strikes after combo 1 though.  I am trying to get to SGM Pesares dojo in the next few weeks though to go over all of his Pinans (katas) again.    I used to do his original 6 katas the same way as he does but have gotten confused on his version of 3 kata so i am relearning it from him.  The original 3 kata did not end facing the same direction as it started, that only happened in the tournament series when judges scored the students low for not finishing in the same direction.  I have changed most of my Kata's to resemble his originals, not as fluid as the SKK ones but almost identical.
Jesse


----------



## marlon

It is great that you are learning all this from the GM Pesare Jesse.  I appreciate you sharing it.  I was always taught thatr section of 6 kata as combo #6...live and learn.  Now you said it is a kempo roundhouse to the heart...do you me the no pivoting roundhouse that looks like a front ball angles inward?...you know next time i am down that way i will hope to see those original forms!!!

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> It is great that you are learning all this from the GM Pesare Jesse. I appreciate you sharing it. I was always taught thatr section of 6 kata as combo #6...live and learn. Now you said it is a kempo roundhouse to the heart...do you me the no pivoting roundhouse that looks like a front ball angles inward?...you know next time i am down that way i will hope to see those original forms!!!
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
That is the kick that i am talking about.  The difference is i do pivot a little - ACL/MCL tears that i do not like aggravating so i do pivot a little bit.  Also there is no jump in the original combo #4.  Heck in reality the original Combo #4 as created by Prof. Walter Godin ended after the Kempo roundhouse kick to the head.  I am going to make a guess that Sijo Gascon added to the technique.  Gascon and SGM Pesare walk up the side of the body and do strikes to the neck and groin, they do not jump over the body onto the face and shoulders like in our SKK #4.  So here is my question, was it Prof. Cerio or GM Villari that added the jump up/expose the groin leap of faith to the face?


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> JTKenpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I absolutely agree that 6 kata is far ahead of 5, as it should be or they would both be taught at the same rank. When I said 6 was a summary of the system I thought it was implied up to that point. If it was a summary of the entire system there would be no need to go any further.
> 
> i understand. i just do not see 5 kata as any kind of summary of the system. However, i am open to having you show me how it is!
> 
> good discussion
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would love to!
> 
> The kata begins by moving forward (1 kata) then moves back on the same line (2 kata).  This is also line reenforcement which is taught in 2 kata and also has the blocks and counter strikes on the same hand which you brought up earlier about 2 kata.  These linear steps are then followed by circular steps in the wheel backward for the next two sequences.  "where linear moves end circular moves begin and where circular moves end linear moves begin".  Within these next two sections we have low block high strikes, this I believe is showing the connection of height zones.  As you block or strike one height zone another opens.  The third section also contains the open hand "scoop" blocks followed by spear hands, which is found in the opening of 3 kata.  Then we move into the backfist side kick which we see originally in 1 kata.  Here is the interesting part, the next move is the backfist/trap on each side, before the flying side kick, we see this in 5 pinion which wasn't in the system when 5 kata was created so SGM Pesare could very well have been influenced by shotokan as well (pure speculation on my part, I have nothing else to back that statement up).  Then after the flying side kick we have the reverse crane stance seen very often in Statue of the Crane.  The last section has the back kick to 6 oclock and the spear hand to 12, fighting two different directions simulaneously which is what I believe the underlying principles of 4 kata are; all the pivots.
> 
> So this is why I believe 5 kata to be a summary form, again only the way I see it.
Click to expand...


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> JTkempo, I do like the double hammer strikes after combo 1 though. I am trying to get to SGM Pesares dojo in the next few weeks though to go over all of his Pinans (katas) again. I used to do his original 6 katas the same way as he does but have gotten confused on his version of 3 kata so i am relearning it from him. The original 3 kata did not end facing the same direction as it started, that only happened in the tournament series when judges scored the students low for not finishing in the same direction. I have changed most of my Kata's to resemble his originals, not as fluid as the SKK ones but almost identical.
> Jesse


 
Very Interesting!!  I would love to know why 3 kata did not end in the same direction but 4 kata did with the wheel step to 12 at the end (from facing 6 o'clock with the four knife and spears)??


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> That is the kick that i am talking about. The difference is i do pivot a little - ACL/MCL tears that i do not like aggravating so i do pivot a little bit. Also there is no jump in the original combo #4. Heck in reality the original Combo #4 as created by Prof. Walter Godin ended after the Kempo roundhouse kick to the head. I am going to make a guess that Sijo Gascon added to the technique. Gascon and SGM Pesare walk up the side of the body and do strikes to the neck and groin, they do not jump over the body onto the face and shoulders like in our SKK #4. So here is my question, was it Prof. Cerio or GM Villari that added the jump up/expose the groin leap of faith to the face?


 

My guess would be Villari.  I am very leary of the jump and do NOT teach the leap off of the groin.  I find this rediculus.  It is hard enough not to roll your ankle when jumping around on uneven ground outside never mind starting by stepping on someone to jump.  I teach an adjustment step then jump.  Also I show the jump as a finishing touch.  The best advertisement for #4 I have ever seen is in every highlight vid of the UFC.  Rashad evens is fighting a gentlemen whose name I can not recall but Rashad throughs a roundhouse to the head, his opponent leans over to block the body kick and it lands right in the noggin, knocks him out cold, and Rashad jumps over him to finish.  I saw that and stood up and yelled "hey thats combo#4!!!"

This probably should have gone in the combos thread.  Oh well.


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> Very Interesting!! I would love to know why 3 kata did not end in the same direction but 4 kata did with the wheel step to 12 at the end (from facing 6 o'clock with the four knife and spears)??


 
Answer for 3 kata from SGM Pesare.  "these are fighting forms they end where the last person fell, not at the judges"   good point on 4 kata and now you are going to make me think - I am pretty sure there were only 3 spears in the original but going to have to ask,, again...  going to jump now to your comment about 5 kata and the backfist simo. side kick, that part is not in SGM Pesare's original 1 kata so not sure if that relation can be there.  I am glad you pointed it out though,  it is as if my brain was not remembering that part of 5 kata and i was mad because I do not do that move in any of my other forms now.  (took it out of 1 kata and we do not teach 4 pinan anymore)  so thank you for the punch to the head and knocking the cloud that was blocking my eyes in that section of the form.
Jesse


----------



## LawDog

I agree with some of you, that jump thing was/is a non functional technique.


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> marlon said:
> 
> 
> 
> Would love to!
> 
> The kata begins by moving forward (1 kata) then moves back on the same line (2 kata). This is also line reenforcement which is taught in 2 kata and also has the blocks and counter strikes on the same hand which you brought up earlier about 2 kata. These linear steps are then followed by circular steps in the wheel backward for the next two sequences. "where linear moves end circular moves begin and where circular moves end linear moves begin". Within these next two sections we have low block high strikes, this I believe is showing the connection of height zones. As you block or strike one height zone another opens. The third section also contains the open hand "scoop" blocks followed by spear hands, which is found in the opening of 3 kata. Then we move into the backfist side kick which we see originally in 1 kata. Here is the interesting part, the next move is the backfist/trap on each side, before the flying side kick, we see this in 5 pinion which wasn't in the system when 5 kata was created so SGM Pesare could very well have been influenced by shotokan as well (pure speculation on my part, I have nothing else to back that statement up). Then after the flying side kick we have the reverse crane stance seen very often in Statue of the Crane. The last section has the back kick to 6 oclock and the spear hand to 12, fighting two different directions simulaneously which is what I believe the underlying principles of 4 kata are; all the pivots.
> 
> So this is why I believe 5 kata to be a summary form, again only the way I see it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks. now i see my kempo a little better.
> 
> marlon
Click to expand...


----------



## marlon

does any one teaching shaolin kempo, teach naihanchi kata?  Should we add this to our discussion of skk forms?

Marlon


----------



## kidswarrior

Hope this doesn't seem too off topic, but does anyone else see Pinan elements in this form:


----------



## Josh Oakley

Yes. This looks like tae kwon do, or something like it, and the form you learn first in tae kwon do, and most of its off-shoots, is almost exactly the same as Pinan 1.


----------



## Matt

kidswarrior said:


> Hope this doesn't seem too off topic, but does anyone else see Pinan elements in this form:



I do, mainly pinan nidan from the okinawan style, probably because he says in the video description: 



> Hi folks,
> 
> I have mentioned about how I train with a jung bong (short staff) using the patterns Won Hyo Tul and *Pyung-Ahn EeDan.*
> 
> Some people could'int work out how I was doing this? So I have put it here for you now to see what i do with it
> 
> There will be a follow on vid next to show some of the applications to go with it!!
> 
> enjoy,
> 
> Paul.




The Pyung-ahn forms are the Korean  (usually old TKD or Tang Soo Do) versions of the Pinans. This is essentially what you would get if you did Pinan Nidan (Heian Nidan for you Shotokan & MSDC people) with a jo. 

Click here too see the TSD version of Pyung-ahn ee-dan. The shotokan version, called Heian Nidan looks like this. The okinawan version, Pinan Nidan (formerly Pinan shodan) looks like this. 

For SKK, Pinan Nidan was replaced with Nick Cerio's 2 pinan. 4 kata is also loosely based on Pinan Nidan. Pinan Nidan was originally the first in the Pinan I-V series, but the order was changed during the early development of Shotokan, ostensibly by Funakoshi. However in his early book, Karate Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi, it was still in the original order. 

Matt


----------



## DavidCC

Matt said:


> I do, mainly pinan nidan from the okinawan style, probably because he says in the video description:
> 
> 
> The Pyung-ahn forms are the Korean (usually old TKD or Tang Soo Do) versions of the Pinans. This is essentially what you would get if you did Pinan Nidan (Heian Nidan for you Shotokan & MSDC people) with a jo.
> 
> Click here too see the TSD version of Pyung-ahn ee-dan. The shotokan version, called Heian Nidan looks like this. The okinawan version, Pinan Nidan (formerly Pinan shodan) looks like this.
> 
> For SKK, Pinan Nidan was replaced with Nick Cerio's 2 pinan. 4 kata is also loosely based on Pinan Nidan. Pinan Nidan was originally the first in the Pinan I-V series, but the order was changed during the early development of Shotokan, ostensibly by Funakoshi. However in his early book, Karate Jutsu: The Original Teachings of Gichin Funakoshi, it was still in the original order.
> 
> Matt


 
nice answer, over-achiever


----------



## Matt

DavidCC said:


> nice answer, over-achiever



I was trying to cut it short at just 'annoying know-it-all'  before I reached 'jerk'.:angel:


----------



## marlon

Matt said:


> I was trying to cut it short at just 'annoying know-it-all' before I reached 'jerk'.:angel:


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> does any one teaching shaolin kempo, teach naihanchi kata? Should we add this to our discussion of skk forms?
> 
> Marlon


 
Although Naihanchi is without a doubt in our roots I don't think you could call it SKK.  But I would love to hear a discussion on it as I do not have this form but have seen it several times performed by Matobu Sensei


----------



## DavidCC

I have an old tape of Oyata performing and demontrating applications from Naihanchi.  It is my "secret sauce" for spicing up my kempo, doing stuff my fellow students haven't seen before.  Nasty, mean stuff that makes people not want to stand too close to you.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Nasty, mean stuff that makes people not want to stand too close to you.


 
Either that or you haven't read the martialtalk newsletter about wearing deodorant and washing your gi regularly.    just kidding


----------



## JTKenpo

Does this bring us to Hansuki?


----------



## marlon

JTKenpo said:


> Does this bring us to Hansuki?


 
i am a little apprehensive about discussing this one...it seems to be a form with much discussion around it..and none of us on MT seem to have the original version, Although i am reasonabley sure that Jesse and Matt and Kenpojoe have at least seen the original. Thart being said i will brave a start:  After the beginning series of rapid strikes the bent knee stance with the tigers is a very good surprise takedown. span the head back move into thier center and tiger to the inner thigh (or btwn to be more skk) with a pull from the opposite hand and down they go

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

marlon said:


> i am a little apprehensive about discussing this one...it seems to be a form with much discussion around it..and none of us on MT seem to have the original version, Although i am reasonabley sure that Jesse and Matt and Kenpojoe have at least seen the original. Thart being said i will brave a start: After the beginning series of rapid strikes the bent knee stance with the tigers is a very good surprise takedown. span the head back move into thier center and tiger to the inner thigh (or btwn to be more skk) with a pull from the opposite hand and down they go
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Until recently (within the last five years) I had no idea there were as many "versions" of this form out there as I have now seen.  As for the original, well it isn't SKK now is it?  Ok before the lynchings start here me out.  The original form that Master Chun developed and then brought to Chow for "approval" has been passed down in Chun's direct lineage, but the form and all it's variations that we as SKK practitioners have is Nick Cerios "version" of this form.  As to say what he remembered, added, subtracted, replaced, taught and then STOPPED teaching.  Ok now that I have said that feel free to lynch me.  As for having different versions where better to talk about them then here?  We may have different versions but they all have applications right?  Well lets hope so anyway.

The app I was taught for the opening move is a two person attack.  The rapid fire strikes is to the first person then the  close kneel or tigers stance did you call it is a defense against the person to your right, turning the blocking hand into tigers claw to the groin and high check is tigers claw to the face. 

 Ok I'm going to go duck and cover now.


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> Either that or you haven't read the martialtalk newsletter about wearing deodorant and washing your gi regularly.  just kidding


 
LOL


----------



## SK101

RevIV said:


> I had the front punch to the stomach the entire time myself, then i cracked one of my workout partners to see where they went and their head was right in line to were my original stomach strike was.. side note -- when doing it as a seperate self defense technique i do more of an upward thrust punch to make his head pop back up for the final sweep.
> Jesse


 
Reply to Kata 1 Bunkai -
That makes alot of sense if there folded forward sweeping from their front would make more sense than sweeping from behind. Is your last punch variation like the torque punch Professor I has on his dropping elbow kempo? A kind of rising thrust punch to Solar Plexus or are you saying your hitting the chin in that appl?


----------



## SK101

Jdokan said:


> Next position:
> Pivot to 11:00 hands gathered in fist over fist Facing the 9:00 opponent...As he delivers a front kick we step outside the kick doing a crossblock (left hand closest to you) The right grabs the ankle (the left hand stays on the foot applying additional pressure), twist your upper body CW while sliding back drawing the opponent in off balance and turning their back to you, slide in and deliver Iron Butterfly to their spine. Turn on guard to the 12:00 position hands in the overhead cranes protecting position....


 
What is Iron Butterfly?


----------



## SK101

Jdokan said:


> Next sequence:
> Turn into a L/foot forward Cat satnce performing a R/hand cross palm block, Step forward (L/foot) driving L/palm to chin/jaw line, R/front ball kick to midsection....


 
Reply to Kata 1 -
This technique I have as whipping palm to the left wrist then step out with left palm to heart. Opponent is pushed back so you follow up with a front ball kick to compensate for the extra distance.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Seq 2
> "Attack is over head club followed by right front kick.
> Cross block upward to elbow immediately followed (no chamber) by left low block to parry kick and while attackers foot is still in the air deliver right punch on a downward 45 angle to body (bladder or groin) causing attacker to loose balance."
> 
> What happened to the arm with the club in it after you pulled your left away for the low block and your right away for the punch?
> 
> clubs are heavy and don't tend to hand in mid-air. swinging a heavy club with intent pulls the weight onto the right foot, so how could I even kick with it?


 
How about the elbow breaks on the block and instead if a kick you merely turned your torso toward 9:00 making the #8 block a reverse hammer to groin. Opponent folds forward so you deliver a thrust punch to the mastoid.


----------



## SK101

Kata 1 application - Some of these are what were officially given to me by my instructors, others are just some things I picture in my head.

Salutation - Breaking the elbow from an O/H Club attack or X strike to throat as someone attempts a forward bearhug.

Sec 1 - teaches maxization of energy. If your left foot is coming down from a front kick the right straight punch thrown lower than the shoulder has maximum energy since the hips are coming down and falling to the left.

Sec 2 - Attack is Hammer/Left straight punch - X Block high, # 8 block to opponents left elbow, twist opponent, punch to kidney or ribs depending how much they turn

Sec 2 - Attack is attempted forward bear hug - X strike to throat, reverse hammer to groin or solar plexus, back punch to chin(I prefer back punch on this application as groin strike will make them fall forward). 

  If you are really fast you could hit the nose as the opponent comes forward. Many persons have said they have a sweep after the right front punch, if the person is hit in the nose body mechanics would make sense with a sweep coming from behind. I have never had the sweep, but I like the concept.

Sec 3 - Attack is front ball kick - X Block low, grab leg, swing CW then reverse and throw leg CCW spinning opponent. 

2nd option - Instead of throwing leg away continue your CCW spin taking their leg over your head and ripping the groin muscles. 

Sec 4 - Right palm pointed forward overhead and left knifehand in front of chest - Shaolin traditional onguard. I have no application for this move I have always taught as a guard we no longer use during sparring.

Sec 5 - Attack is rt. hook punch/left thrust punch - Double knife hand block to wrist and bicep, trap left punch, spear to throat. I don't tend to use this Bunkai. I prefer to think of this section as only the right hook punch as the left is hard for me to visualize blocking with this movement.

Could be used as a Variation of DM 5 double block, palm to jaw, spear to throat. Variation of DM 3 could be defense against left backfist after double blocks left hand grabs opponents left shoulder then spear to neck or back punch to temple if neck is not exposed.

Sec 6 - Attack is left punch - Right whipping palm to wrist, then left palmheel to heart, opponent moves back from heart strike so you throw the right front ball kick

Sec 7 - Spin CCW, block a right or left punch then counter strike with a left back punch.

Sec 8 - Attack is single lapel grab and opponent has right leg forward - Step back with left foot as left hand grabs opponents right wrist, right hammer to bicep then right back fist to temple and right side blade to opponent's left knee. Footwork is altered and cup over saucer is assumed to be the grab and hammer.


----------



## SK101

Jdokan said:


> Last sequence;
> Pivot on the R/foot towards the 12:00 position block an incoming R/hand attack; #2 block w/snapping backpunch to the face ( I target the cheekbone ridge under their right eye). Draw up Fist over Fist L/side; Double Dragon strike to the right, draw up on the right FoF on the right and Double Dragon strike to the left...Xblock and end the form......


 
I like the right cheek bone interpretation that would control the left punch.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Techcnially, I wasn't disagreeing, just asking questions where your description left out some details...
> 
> But if I were to offer something, I would say that the attack sequence you initially proposed (right overhead club/rigth kick) is not realistic becasue the swinging of a club with intent precludes the follow-up kick with the same side foot because of the weight distribution.
> 
> I would also offer my opinion that the idea of blocking at the elbow or tricep in order to cause a club disarm is dangerous because, should the hyperextension of the elblow actually happen, he will be releasing that heavy blunt object to continue its travel and that could take it right into your head. That is one of a handful of reasons I think that this is not a technique I would use even if it did mechanically work as you describe (which it may or may not, I am not sure - swinging a rattan stick yes, but try a brick, is the elbow aligned the same?).


 
David all club techniques assume that the brick, club, etc. goes flying out of the attackers hand on the block. We assume this because if it happens we need to be out of the way of the weapon. I.E. your head is always farther foward and to the left side so the weapon wont land on you head or foot. Any block done from the elbow to the tricep is very likely to make the attacker loose the weapon. We also assume they don't loose the weapon since if they don't we have to control them in some way that keeps them from continuing to attack with the weapon. I like your thought process. Your questioning of the logic of the technique will lead you to all the answers you need. If you don't like one answer keep looking I guarantee eventually you will get an answer that clicks and makes you go wow that makes sense or atleast that has been my experience. Best advice I can give is buy Professor I's videos on SK. They opened my eyes.


----------



## SK101

Kata 2 Application - 

Sec 1 - Attack is any type of kick that has a flamingo - Block the knee as opponent attempts to flamingo, as opponent falls forward use rising chicken wrist to chin, front ball kick to solar plexus or other target.

Sec 2 - Spin CW from 12 to 6 with tiger kali blocks. This section is used to learn to block as you spin even if you don't know you have another attacker. When you change directions you always protect yourself.
Double blocking is used to start the block with the hand that will arrive first. Then the side that will be stronger takes over.

Sec 3,4 - Two attackers one from 4:30 and one fron 1:30. You see both attackers and you only have time for 1 hit to the 4:30 attacker so you use a modified DM #7 to hit the 4:30 attacker while spinning to the 1:30 attacker. Sun step back with left inv ridge block to right hand, left spear to neck or throat, sun step in with right shuto to neck. Prior to shuto to neck you can twist opponents neck to allow shuto to do more damage. Start this technique from a very close position. If you are at normal "DM" range the spear may be to far away.

Sec 5 - see Kata 1 and change angle.

Sec 6 - Never had any more application than block/punch on this section.

Sec 7- Back kick/Side kick - Two attackers. Balance drill.

Sec 8 - Attack is left punch - Tiger kali block, Left hand grabs opponents left wrist, since your positioning doesn't allow left foot to step out easily you half moon forward with right foot and right thrust punch to ribs.


----------



## SK101

There are two threads I would like to propose after we finish working on form Bunkai. 1st is running application off of hypathetical attacks. Such as use Kata 1 ending off double wrist grab. Then we try to brainstorm and see if we can find a variation that will work off that grab/attack. To me you learn more about a form by forcing yourself to think out of the box then just about anything else. The other is listing out principles and theories in the DMs or Forms. I read someone mention this earlier and I think theories and principles would be a great topic. It beats another thread on where did SK really come from and does USSD charge to much.


----------



## SK101

JTKenpo said:


> I have never been a fan of the second sequence in 3 kata...Pivot to the rear, execute right back punch facing 6 o'clock then turn counter clockwise 360 deg lowering hieght zone until you can touch the ground then jump into right scissor kick -
> 
> this bunkai was taught to me as two attackers, one in front and one behind throwing simultaneous rt hooking punches - as you spin you go under both punches hit the floor then jump up with scissor kick. I teach students left stepping stool generally 1st as an easy version and give them scissor kick later on.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Apparently we have completely rmeoved that entire squat/jump/kick section and replaced it with
> 
> ...step forward left to left HM with downward X-block. Raise hands, fingers spread (tiger claw) raking face outward with both hands, comnig to elbow pos.
> Strike to both eyes with both thumbs, then right front ball kick to SP, step foward into right HM after kick.
> 
> This sequence of movements is also our empty hand defense combo 14.


 
I think you mentioned this movement before as DM 14. It sounds like a variation of what is normally DM 24. X block low, Scissor strike to throat, double tiger claws to face or honshu strikes, then double "iron" thumbs to eyes(I don't know the name of this strike. I had it originally as poison thumbs, but Master E showed a version with what are basically side palms with thumbs forward). I have never had a front kick at the end of 24, but everything else seems the same.


----------



## SK101

Kata 3 Application -

Sec 1 - Attack is left punch then right punch - From iron wall guard use double inv ridge blocks against punches opening opponent up, spear to solar plexus then throat, front kick. 
Both strikes are going to air targets knocking the wind out of your opponent.

Sec 2 - See kata 1.

Sec 3 - See Previous post. What is the #8 block for? I have never been given an explanation on that. 

Sec 4 - 3 Dynamic tension drills - dynamic tension drills. Maybe practicing chambering a bow and arrow?

Sec 5 - triple kicks. Balance drill. 3 attackers.

Sec 6 - attack is right low roundhouse - Step left foot behind right avoiding the kick, left side kick to opponents knee(as they throw the roundhouse),cross out.

Sec 7 - DM 26 - self explanatory

Sec 8 - Attack is left low front kick - #7 block opens them up, then punch the groin.


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> (there is also #1 and # 6 in there)
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
certainly not looking to argue with you Marlon, just curious where DM #1 is in Kata 6.


----------



## SK101

JTKenpo said:


> Does this bring us to Hansuki?


 
How about the Pinans/Pinions, Fist Sets, Statu(r)e. They have plenty of insight to offer.


----------



## 14 Kempo

SK101 said:


> certainly not looking to argue with you Marlon, just curious where DM #1 is in Kata 6.


 
I thought the same when I first saw that comment. Only place I can find it or anything similar is the simulated takedown just prior to the right front kick, could be said to be #6, that comes before #19. Not exactly sure I'm explaining this correctly, but maybne if you go through it, you may see where I think it could be.


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> There are two threads I would like to propose after we finish working on form Bunkai. 1st is running application off of hypathetical attacks. Such as use Kata 1 ending off double wrist grab. Then we try to brainstorm and see if we can find a variation that will work off that grab/attack. To me you learn more about a form by forcing yourself to think out of the box then just about anything else. The other is listing out principles and theories in the DMs or Forms. I read someone mention this earlier and I think theories and principles would be a great topic. It beats another thread on where did SK really come from and does USSD charge to much.


 

there is a thread on principles found in the forms already, your input is most welcome.  And as for bunkai, i think it would be very benefial for us to go and work things out on a partner and come back and share what we find.  Just talking about what we think could be, seems a little less productive to me

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> JTKenpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have never been a fan of the second sequence in 3 kata...Pivot to the rear, execute right back punch facing 6 o'clock then turn counter clockwise 360 deg lowering hieght zone until you can touch the ground then jump into right scissor kick -
> 
> this sequence in 3 kata i have as a cresent kick to the attackers knee with follow through (hence the spin) and then the kick.. i do not teach to touch the ground.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon
Click to expand...


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> certainly not looking to argue with you Marlon, just curious where DM #1 is in Kata 6.


 

Since when is asking a question or disagreeing considered an agruement?


i see it after #26 and the 2 kicks.

marlon


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> I thought the same when I first saw that comment. Only place I can find it or anything similar is the simulated takedown just prior to the right front kick, could be said to be #6, that comes before #19. Not exactly sure I'm explaining this correctly, but maybne if you go through it, you may see where I think it could be.


 
yes this is where i see #1 in 6 kata there is a ccw turn with this move in the form yet i still see it as #1.
of course i may be wrong.
marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> How about the Pinans/Pinions, Fist Sets, Statu(r)e. They have plenty of insight to offer.


 
Statue i think we missed and as for the pinans i believe we left them out as they are not specific to skk.

marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> Since when is asking a question or disagreeing considered an agruement?
> 
> 
> i see it after #26 and the 2 kicks.
> 
> marlon


 
after the 2 kicks and the kneel down punch, the next block is an outward knife hand block to 6 oclock and then the knife hand strikes and take down.  This is based on SGM Pesares original #1 combo.


----------



## SK101

Hello Marlon, which thread discusses principles of SK forms?


----------



## SK101

Kata 5 Application - 

Sec 1 - Learning to rise and fall with your strikes .

Sec 2 - Attack is wrist grab - Sweep inverted ridge hand block across outer forearm removing opponents grab then spear hand.

Sec 3 - Attack is front instep kick followed by double throat choke - Just like beg of kata 3 you are striking two air targets.

Sec 4 - Attack is right front kick - Side lean away with #7 block then shuffle in and hit ceribelum with back fist.

Sec 5 - Master Taylor had said this technique was back fist side kick followed by trap and back fist then trap and back fist. i never could visualize how to do that.

Sec 6 - You are the attacker so to speak - Flying side blade kick

Sec 7 - I have no application on this move. It would interesting to read the application on Statu(r)e as it will probably be similar.

Sec 8 I have no application on this move.


----------



## RevIV

Sec 4 - Attack is right front kick - Side lean away with #7 block then shuffle in and hit ceribelum with back fist.

I had this too but Matt has a much better application.  the actual move above does not make much sense when you really break it down,  for that attack it would be easier to shuffle away and do a #8 block and never turning your body.  Matt does it off of some kindof arm or shoulder/lapel grab, step back draw person down and into your base then rifling them with the strike.


----------



## Mark L

On 5 Kata:

Sec 3 I have as a downward push, could be a choke or lapel, as the movement starts with elbows straight out to the sides and the hands at chin height.  I've used similar motion to defend a shoot to the legs (the same can be said of the initial move in Swift Tigers)

Sec 7 is a crane stance with a low and high block.  This can thwart a variety of attacks, I have several punch techniques that start with these blocks.  They work against single, double, or repeat strikes if you keep 'em cycling.  After the block we counter attack with a spear to the groin, trap down on their counter strike or grab, then inverted spear to the throat, outward rakes, kick to the SP.

Sec 8 Finish of the last two guys: Against the same opponent as Sec 6, #2 block and strike (just like 1 Kata), cup and saucer trap of the second strike, back kick low to the opponent from Sec 7, final spear to the groin.

On 6 Kata:

Almost all versions I've seen have a crescent - hook kick combination, I was taught and have always done a double sweep.  RevIV, maybe you could provide GM Pesare's original intent?


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> after the 2 kicks and the kneel down punch, the next block is an outward knife hand block to 6 oclock and then the knife hand strikes and take down. This is based on SGM Pesares original #1 combo.


 

thanks Jesse( the daddy).  how different is GM Pesare's #1 from the villari version?

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

SK101 said:


> Hello Marlon, which thread discusses principles of SK forms?


 
there is a thread called: skk form principles


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Sec 4 - Attack is right front kick - Side lean away with #7 block then shuffle in and hit ceribelum with back fist.
> 
> I had this too but Matt has a much better application. the actual move above does not make much sense when you really break it down, for that attack it would be easier to shuffle away and do a #8 block and never turning your body. Matt does it off of some kindof arm or shoulder/lapel grab, step back draw person down and into your base then rifling them with the strike.


 

I like that application..after the lean if you trap the arm with the left hand then punch though under the trapped arm you can give some damage to the elbow joint

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## SK101

marlon said:


> thanks Jesse( the daddy). how different is GM Pesare's #1 from the villari version?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
I like that part of kata 6 for defense against a left punch or back fist although I have to say that little crescent at the end doesn't make sense to me if it is a left punch. I suppose the right punch would work, but I don't see the shuto to the ribs controlling the left punch. The "Villari" version I like against a left shoulder grab. I did not know that section was an older version of DM 1. Always good to know.


----------



## SK101

Kata 6 Application -

Sec 1 - Dragon Breathes fire. Breathing Drill.

Sec 2 - 10 Point Blocking #10

Sec 3 - Repeat sec 1

Sec 4 - 10 Point Blocking #9

Sec 5 - Two attackers grabbing the throat from the side or just rushing in from the side - Double hammers to groins then stepping stool to 3rd attacker.

Sec 6 - I have no appl for this

Sec 7 - DM 26 - Self explanatory

Sec 8 - Attack is from behind while there is someone lying on the floor in front of you -

Jump over person on floor. Turn X Block low against front kick. Pull opponents heel to your chest so they fall on back. Scooping ball kick then heel kick to groin. Right axe to ribs. Turn 180* CCW. Left heel kick to groin then right snaking downward ball kick to solar plexus. Turn 180* CCW then right front punch to nose. Right side kick to head and land in horse stance. 

Sec 9 - Attack is left punch or back fist - Block, grab, shuto to ribs, rev hawkdown, I don't use the little crescent if I do this appl.

Sec 10 - Attack is double wrist grab - #7&8 blocks used to escape grab, then front kick to solar plexus. I would step back with the right foot on this. GM DeMasco uses this technique from double forearm grab on the Century Self Defense video he has out. He uses an instep kick to the groin though.

Sec 11 - DM 19 - Self Explanatory.

Sec 12 - Attack is two persons at 45* angles. The X block above the head is the starting guard for a double attacker situation. If they come in mid to low level on the attack you can use 7&8 blocks. If they come in high you could use 1&2 knife hand blocks. Guy on your right side attacks first so you use a side kick to defend then the other attacker comes in with right or left kick so you use #8 block then front punch to solar plexus or spine depending on which side he kicks with.

Sec 13 - 10 Point Blocking # 9.

Sec 14 - Repeat of 12.

Sec 15 - DM #4 - Self Explanatory.

Sec 16 - Attack is left back fist. Block, grab, break.

Sec 17 - Rev 16.


----------



## RevIV

SK101 said:


> I like that part of kata 6 for defense against a left punch or back fist although I have to say that little crescent at the end doesn't make sense to me if it is a left punch. I suppose the right punch would work, but I don't see the shuto to the ribs controlling the left punch. The "Villari" version I like against a left shoulder grab. I did not know that section was an older version of DM 1. Always good to know.


 
I may be reading this wrong, but after the punch to the ground in 6 kata - I am blocking a right punch, and cross shuto to the neck followed up with a right tiger mouth then leg hock, as person is on the ground i kick them in the head then cross over and do the knuckle roll previously discussed.  now jumping back a step I on the kick spin move which ends up with the kneeling punch, i have seen many versions but none with a hook kick.  I will do 2 of my bunkais after and before i speak for SGM Pesares bunkai i will ask him in a few weeks.


----------



## SK101

RevIV said:


> I may be reading this wrong, but after the punch to the ground in 6 kata - I am blocking a right punch, and cross shuto to the neck followed up with a right tiger mouth then leg hock, as person is on the ground i kick them in the head then cross over and do the knuckle roll previously discussed. now jumping back a step I on the kick spin move which ends up with the kneeling punch, i have seen many versions but none with a hook kick. I will do 2 of my bunkais after and before i speak for SGM Pesares bunkai i will ask him in a few weeks.


 
If you are looking at that move as defense against right front punch I agree with the shuto to neck completly as that will control the left punch. I was originally taught the shuto as to the ribs, which to me makes sense if the attack was a left punch but not a right. I would also think another variation for the right punch could be to deliver the shuto to the opponents right kidney and maybe twisting their wrist to control that left punch. I don't think I said anything about a hook kick. I have a small crescent at the end of that application, but no hook.


----------



## SK101

Seeing as we are talking about the hawk down section. I was told hawk downs remove the throat. I.E. after the Tiger's mouth to esophagus you eagle's talon the wind pipe then pull back as the person falls to pull their throat out. 

   My guess is you would need some strong fingers and some understanding trainging partners to learn to do this.


----------



## DavidCC

SK101 said:


> What is Iron Butterfly?


 
In A Gadda Da Vida  Baby


----------



## DavidCC

SK101 said:


> David all club techniques assume that the brick, club, etc. goes flying out of the attackers hand on the block.
> ...
> We also assume they don't loose the weapon


 
Thanks, I ahve been wantign to get some of Prof. I's stuff for a while.  But do you really assume two opposites at the same time?  Maybe I'm just not reading you clearly (not enough coffee yet).


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Thanks, I ahve been wantign to get some of Prof. I's stuff for a while. But do you really assume two opposites at the same time? Maybe I'm just not reading you clearly (not enough coffee yet).


 
The technique has to work off both. If the person looses the weapon you continue as if you are sparring with someone without a weapon. If they maintain the weapon you control the limb holding the weapon at all costs. They can't loose the weapon and keep it at the same time, but since we can't guarantee that they do one or the other we use techniques that work off both scenarios. 

O/H Club #1, #2 Step left and forward with X Block High. Redirect right arm into groin. If they are still holding the weapon you take it away with your left hand. If they drop it you double thrust punch to ribs and temple.

If they keep the weapon you are doing what we call O/H club 1 if they loose it you are doing O/H club 2. 

O/H Club #3 on the other hand is done the same way irregardless of whether the club remains in there hand. Except you can't take the club away and hit them with it if they loose the club.


----------



## RevIV

Mark L said:


> On 6 Kata:
> 
> Almost all versions I've seen have a crescent - hook kick combination, I was taught and have always done a double sweep. RevIV, maybe you could provide GM Pesare's original intent?


 
Sorry, it was Mark L who wrote the Hook Kick.


----------



## Mark L

RevIV said:


> Sorry, it was Mark L who wrote the Hook Kick.


MY bad.  As indicated earlier, we do a double sweep at that point in the form, no doubt due to our Kara-Ho influences.   My crescent-hook (the "spinning" qualifier on the hook kick was implicit, again, my bad) statement was based on a clearly poor memory, having seen other versions at tournaments in the distant past.


----------



## SK101

Hon Suki Application - (However it is spelled) anyone have a translation for the name?

Salutation - 3 stages of increasing breathing getting ready for war.
Monk wakes up in the morning gathers chi, Sun Rises, Sun Sets, Moon Rises, Moon Sets, Monk Prays, Monk becomes humble, monk wakes up in the morning gathers chi, Monk harvests(Never cared for that name), Monk wakes up in the morning and develops chi, War(Hon Suki hand set)

Sec 1 Han Suki hands - Palm to 3rd eye, grab hair, pull into back punch, honsuki strike to temple, reverse hammer to groin, front punch to nose

Up to here I see Han Suki as a body mechanics drill. Learning to manipulate an opponent so they don't recover there balance. When you add in the back punch/front punch it seems like a speed drill. I would think after front punch to nose & back to solar plexus you should have a face shot not a groin shot. Just like STCrane I feel it is best used to practice speeding up the hands not as application. Anyone have an application on strikes 6&7 by chance?

Sec 2 -Rev sec 1

Sec 3 - Reminds me alot of the block punch in the Pinans/katas. 

Sec 4 - Part of section 1, but low x block 1st to deal with front instep kick.

Sec 5  Attack is front instep kick then right punch - 
X block low. Right #1 block with honsuki strike. Reverse hammer to groin. Front punch to nose.

Sec 6 & 7reathing drills and hand speed drills.

I'll pickup tommorrow where I am leaving off tommorrow.


----------



## JTKenpo

Did we want to cover Statue before Honsuki?

Statue, for me, has always been the harmony between balance and power.

The crane stance itself, for application purposes, I like for kick defenses.  with linear kicks such as front kicks I use the parrying action of the knee chambering and turning to the side.   As for roundhouse defense I use the knee turning into the kick creating a perpendicular able and striking the kick with my shin or knee.  Yes that does hurt in the beginning but so does holding a horse stance for long periods of time.


----------



## JTKenpo

Statue of the crane applications:

simultaneous knife to phyltrum and spear to throat, knife hand arm also blocks punch in an upward block manner.

U-Punch, I believe this is the first form we see this strike.  i have seen it used against a two hand attack such as a lapel grab or a front choke


----------



## marlon

I love Prof. I's application of trapping the arms and attacking with the knees from Statue.  Does anyone do the chain punches down the centerline or all the the same target?  Using the crescent kick for a takedown is another good application of this form.  Althouhg, i find it a much more principles based form than application based.  The circular to straight moves at the end are very good break

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> Statue of the crane applications:
> 
> simultaneous knife to phyltrum and spear to throat, knife hand arm also blocks punch in an upward block manner.
> 
> U-Punch, I believe this is the first form we see this strike. i have seen it used against a two hand attack such as a lapel grab or a front choke


 
I agree, the knifehand can be an upward block. This movement can also be a forearm strike lifting the chin to expose the throat for the spearhand, if the distance has been closed.


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> I love Prof. I's application of trapping the arms and attacking with the knees from Statue. Does anyone do the chain punches down the centerline or all the the same target? Using the crescent kick for a takedown is another good application of this form. Althouhg, i find it a much more principles based form than application based. The circular to straight moves at the end are very good break
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
If we are talking about the same thing, i am not a fan of the crescent kick take down.. Does not mold well if you do it the way it is done in the form.. With that said i do the crescent kick low, scooping the persons leg out from under them, turning direction and dropping them.. I got the technique from one of my Penkjat silat classes.,  they have sweet and subtle take downs.


----------



## Jdokan

SK101 said:


> What is Iron Butterfly?


 Double palm strikes...resembles a butterflys wings..


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> If we are talking about the same thing, i am not a fan of the crescent kick take down.. Does not mold well if you do it the way it is done in the form.. With that said i do the crescent kick low, scooping the persons leg out from under them, turning direction and dropping them.. I got the technique from one of my Penkjat silat classes., they have sweet and subtle take downs.


 
Shihan teaches the traditional crescent kick tothe head  but emphasizes what the kick can do to the armand the excellent takedown if you kick the knee.  i like you application with the turn.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## RevIV

*"Invincible Wall"*
Our version of being backed up against a wall.  There are a few sections that I would like to get others opinions on.  A simple one and one that might not be easily told.
1).  towards end turning left after Left front kick/side kick combo.  
my next move is,, L. inward palm block-R leopard paw throat, right rooster stance (R. crane, but instep of foot goes behind L. knee)  I do that all simo.   and exexute it as a block for a R. punch, strike neck and knee groin at same time.

2).  Back up to the crazy hand movements after right driving front punch. sequence I have (get ready to not understand if you have never been taught this form)  downward open hand X block, R. outward chx wrist, R. inward palm, R. downward palm, L. back punch, L. over R. trap, R. chx wrist up, R. over L trap, L. Downward hamer onto R. wrist, R. chx wrist in front to chin simo L hammer to side groin area. --------  What the heck is going on in this one?  was told numerous times but none obviously stuck because i still do not know.

(marlon and matt -- do not tell me we are working on combo #6 and #7 lefty in the first question for the double kick.. hehehe)


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> *"Invincible Wall"*
> Our version of being backed up against a wall. There are a few sections that I would like to get others opinions on. A simple one and one that might not be easily told.
> 1). towards end turning left after Left front kick/side kick combo.
> my next move is,, L. inward palm block-R leopard paw throat, right rooster stance (R. crane, but instep of foot goes behind L. knee) I do that all simo. and exexute it as a block for a R. punch, strike neck and knee groin at same time.
> 
> 2). Back up to the crazy hand movements after right driving front punch. sequence I have (get ready to not understand if you have never been taught this form) downward open hand X block, R. outward chx wrist, R. inward palm, R. downward palm, L. back punch, L. over R. trap, R. chx wrist up, R. over L trap, L. Downward hamer onto R. wrist, R. chx wrist in front to chin simo L hammer to side groin area. -------- What the heck is going on in this one? was told numerous times but none obviously stuck because i still do not know.
> 
> (marlon and matt -- do not tell me we are working on combo #6 and #7 lefty in the first question for the double kick.. hehehe)


 
not sure but I would asy you are hitting him a whole lotta times LOL

some blocks, some trap, and some strikes... nothing too mysterious I would guess.  put it on Youtube let's see it!


----------



## 14 Kempo

I've got a first place trophy for that form and I have no idea what that part of the form entails. I agree with David, some blocing, trapping and striking. I'll have to spend some time looking at it and see what I can come up with, then throw it past my instructor and eventually see what Kimo thinks. As one GM that I've spoken to has said about many advanced kempo forms and might say about this one, "Chop suey, it's all chop suey" ... LOL ... Imagine what I could have done with the form had I known what I was doing!


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> I've "Chop suey, it's all chop suey" ... LOL ... Imagine what I could have done with the form had I known what I was doing!


 
I thought it was all Karazempo???  LOL


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I thought it was all Karazempo??? LOL


 
Now, now David, let's not get into that discussion, we'll wake up Danjo.


----------



## marlon

not one of my favorite forms, Jesse. However, let me try to write it out b/c i am a little confused:

1. open with outward knives bring them in as you breath in then forward driving knives (this is done slow with breathing and no tension except the weapons)

2. horse stance X block upward, lt inverted hammer, rt thrust then upward X block again

3. pivot into a rt forward stance facing 3:00 with a rt high reverse knife and a lt spear to the throat

4. push off the front leg with three or five upholding blocks or backhand blocks (out of plum tree) while you are in the air

5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm  rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30

6.  Lt leg steps back into a horse stance facing 12:00with a windmill block into a trap on the lt side of your body. rt driving crane to 12:00 then lt palm to 12:00. lt front ball to 12:00 then lt side kick to 9:00 after the kick return to a crane stance lt leg up as the rt hand does a dropping palm at the lt waist and the lt does a rising palm simultaneously at the left side of the body

7.  Shift your entire weight onto the left leg facing 9:00 with a rt..willow palm and left leopard paw the rt tibia sits horizontal on the left calf

8.  shift your weight back on to the rt leg into a cat stance with double palm pushing towards 9:00 waist height step into a lt forward stance facing 9:00 with double rising palms to the lower rib cage and fininsh with double leopards to the throat

9. the rt leg steps forward into a horse stance facing 7:00 then five thrust punches at that angle going down the body.

10.Rt leg steps back towards 3:00 (cw) with a lt over rt windmill block to trap and the lt leg steps behind the rt leg weight is on the rt leg then shift the weight to the lt leg and give a rt reverse crescent to 12:00 land in a horse stance facing 12:00

11. lt outward crane then rt outward crane both hands hook as in the end  of the plum tree blocking.  lt front heel kick 

12. rt front punch to 10:30, then lt front puinch to 1:30, the rt then lt then rt lt pressing palm to 1:30 shift into a forward stance to that angle and rt leopard strike
end form


is this what you have?

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## RevIV

5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30

yes that is roughly it. 
 no mantis in the system yet i have been taught it, elephants trunk, crabs pinch,eagle talon, scorpion kick, bear paw, rooster stance, .....
not sure where you were going with the "no chicken wrist in the system" comment.

As to the chop suey comment, I have to agree with you that a lot of the higher froms are just that.   I do like this one for nastalgia sake.  It was the first Advance form I saw when i was a purple belt.  Just stuck from there.


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> 5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30
> 
> yes that is roughly it.
> no mantis in the system yet i have been taught it, elephants trunk, crabs pinch,eagle talon, scorpion kick, bear paw, rooster stance, .....
> not sure where you were going with the "no chicken wrist in the system" comment.
> 
> As to the chop suey comment, I have to agree with you that a lot of the higher froms are just that. I do like this one for nastalgia sake. It was the first Advance form I saw when i was a purple belt. Just stuck from there.


 

The sequence is a little reminiscent of #46 with the bell block and the regrabs after the wrist break, but unfortunately I never got this form.   Working with the sequence you described I can see several applications as described before with trapping sequences, breaks, blocks and strikes.  As for the chop suey unfortunately I have heard the same many times over.  In looking for applications in Lost Leopard (don't ask why I have leopard and not invincible wall I have no idea) certain sources said there isn't any application that it was developed as a tournament form and then put in the curriculum as one of the advanced black belt forms.  So not to get too off topic but if it is all chop suey what are we doing trying to find reasons behind movements that might only be moving for movement sake?


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> The sequence is a little reminiscent of #46 with the bell block and the regrabs after the wrist break, but unfortunately I never got this form. Working with the sequence you described I can see several applications as described before with trapping sequences, breaks, blocks and strikes. As for the chop suey unfortunately I have heard the same many times over. In looking for applications in Lost Leopard (don't ask why I have leopard and not invincible wall I have no idea) certain sources said there isn't any application that it was developed as a tournament form and then put in the curriculum as one of the advanced black belt forms. So not to get too off topic but if it is all chop suey what are we doing trying to find reasons behind movements that might only be moving for movement sake?


 
LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> 5. lt heel kick landing in a lt forward stance ,downward X block to 3:00 then rt. crane (you call this a chicken wrist...but there is no chicken in the system?!!!?) rt. outward palm rt dropping knife, lt dropping knife, rt, lt, rt then simultaneaous outward cranes to 5:30 (rt) and 9:30
> 
> yes that is roughly it.
> no mantis in the system yet i have been taught it, elephants trunk, crabs pinch,eagle talon, scorpion kick, bear paw, rooster stance, .....
> not sure where you were going with the "no chicken wrist in the system" comment.
> 
> As to the chop suey comment, I have to agree with you that a lot of the higher froms are just that. I do like this one for nastalgia sake. It was the first Advance form I saw when i was a purple belt. Just stuck from there.


 

so this sequence #5 the basic application that i have is a heel kick to the leg the X block to the punching arm the crane blocks the lt punch the palm strikes the  occipital region then presses down. the next strikes work thier way down the bent over body then the lt hand reaches over to the lt side of the attacker (head or shoulder) and grabs while the rt hand presses on the rt shoulder and the double cranes show the direction of the force you apply.  this takes the attacker down and they land on thier back.  there are other applications but this was the base one i was given.  i do not much like this form but...it has its benefits.  The rhythm and timing of it workes rapid striking while primarily protecting yourself  the wall of defense is made stronger (invincible) by the body's form while striking.

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc


 
While i appreciate the Okinawan styles i love sk and i find it effective and useful.  The all chop suey comments and feelings are perhaps about forms i have not come across yet.  Although, i have heard of quite a few schools with defiecient teaching,  the sytem itself, and the forms are quite valid.  imo.  Believe me i was very embarrassed about the reputation of sk out there and looked long and hard to invalidate it ...make it better, hide its faults and distance myself from the laughable.  In the end , what happened was that i found that it is a very legitimate system, despite all the theatrics surrounding its inception and origins.  I say it is no less valid than GM Ed. Parker's system or any Chow related art...there is just the hate of the Villari business practices that make it seem less than what it is.  work the material from solid basics and a good understanding of martial arts and, well at least, i have found it excellent.  It also, seems that my teacher and Prof. Kimo think so as well.  But the truth uis in the training and the testing of it.
\
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## 14 Kempo

Gees guys, sorry I brought up the 'chop suey' comment. As I have always said and I will most likely always say, there is nothing wrong with the style, only the teaching, as long as a person is willing to keep an open mind and investigate the movements. The same GM that made the comment also stated that with the background experience possessed by the executioner, the forms worked. That comment being a testiment to the person doing the form moving properly within the form. 

I'm not the most experienced person in the world, that's for sure, but even I can see that in some SKK based styles there is very little use of the body. The hands are flying around with impressive speed and even showing as much power as can be shown without using the entire body.

As for the forms, I have them all, OK, most of them up through Five Dragons and Lost Leopard, I've even won a tournament with Invincible Wall, so I'm not talking down the forms, just brought up a statement I had heard. Didn't mean for anybody to use it as ammo!


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> The sequence is a little reminiscent of #46 with the bell block and the regrabs after the wrist break, but unfortunately I never got this form. Working with the sequence you described I can see several applications as described before with trapping sequences, breaks, blocks and strikes. As for the chop suey unfortunately I have heard the same many times over. In looking for applications in Lost Leopard (don't ask why I have leopard and not invincible wall I have no idea) certain sources said there isn't any application that it was developed as a tournament form and then put in the curriculum as one of the advanced black belt forms. So not to get too off topic but if it is all chop suey what are we doing trying to find reasons behind movements that might only be moving for movement sake?


 
We will need to go over your #46 and mine.  As for Lost Leopard it was created by GM Fred Bagley for the tournaments then added as you said--  no hidden anything and thats from the source.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc


 
The organization I was in had the Okinawan forms in also after black -  I am happy that i took them all out.  They seemed counter-productive to what a Kempo black belt from our system was trying to attain.  Master Chun, Jr. does a lot of the Okinawan forms in the early stages the transfer of Hard to soft not soft to hard was the way he was taught by Prof. Chow and his father GM Chun, Sr.  I am not saying good or bad one way or another, just that it is interesting how each Master chooses his or her path.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> LOL you guys are making me appreciate the fact that our black belt forms are all okinawan : seisan, suparunpai, etc


 

what Black Belt forms were in your system before your teacher added the Okinawan ones?


----------



## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> what Black Belt forms were in your system before your teacher added the Okinawan ones?


 
That's a very astute question, one I am now happhy to answer.

Chriostopher Geary never reached black belt under a SKK teacher, so he never learned any of them.  He later trained on his own until Nick Cerio would rank him by video, but I don't beleive he learend any new material form him just got notes on correcting what he already did.  Plus Cerio wanted the money.

Later Geary did train some under Lou Angel, and that is where the Okinawan forms come in.

Will Sensei Steiner, now FREE of Geary's control, keep the Okinawan forms, or do away with them?  That quesiton is still open.  We don't have any training on the SKK forms, so I doubt if they will get put back in.

I think we may end up with some differnet forms also from Okinawan kempo thanks to Sensei Steiner's association with Evan Pantazzi and guys like Asa Seely and Mark Kline.  Hakkatsuru mei, Kin Ken; Naihanchi for exmaple I know he has been studying.  We will probably keep Sanchin, but it move it down to where we start teaching it at Blue.  Everything is up in the air right now.

I don't think our negative impressions of SKK mainstream comes form Villari or even Mattera's bad business practices.  I think it comes from the general lack of quality at places like USSD.  Like was said above - it's the teachers.

I wrote an article for out student manul on the history of Shaolin kempo.  This is the closing paragraph:



> Many of the younger teachers of Shaolin Kempo today are reaching out to one another in an effort to re-unite our Art, and to raise the quality to the legendary standards of Cerio, Pesare, Emperado and Chow.  We hope that the Steiner Academy will become an important player in that effort, and the hard work by all the students at Steiner Academy is an important part of that.  Over 1000 years ago, Confucius said that Self-Improvement is the root of all progress, and it is still true today, every day, at the Steiner Academy of Martial Arts.


----------



## John Bishop

DavidCC said:


> Will Sensei Steiner, now FREE of Geary's control, keep the Okinawan forms, or do away with them?  That quesiton is still open.  We don't have any training on the SKK forms, so I doubt if they will get put back in.
> 
> I think we may end up with some differnet forms also from Okinawan kempo thanks to Sensei Steiner's association with Evan Pantazzi and guys like Asa Seely and Mark Kline.  Hakkatsuru mei, Kin Ken; Naihanchi for exmaple I know he has been studying.  We will probably keep Sanchin, but it move it down to where we start teaching it at Blue.  Everything is up in the air right now.
> 
> [/font]



Fight more.  Kata less.:btg:


----------



## JTKenpo

14 Kempo said:


> Gees guys, sorry I brought up the 'chop suey' comment. As I have always said and I will most likely always say, there is nothing wrong with the style, only the teaching, as long as a person is willing to keep an open mind and investigate the movements. The same GM that made the comment also stated that with the background experience possessed by the executioner, the forms worked. That comment being a testiment to the person doing the form moving properly within the form.
> 
> I'm not the most experienced person in the world, that's for sure, but even I can see that in some SKK based styles there is very little use of the body. The hands are flying around with impressive speed and even showing as much power as can be shown without using the entire body.
> 
> As for the forms, I have them all, OK, most of them up through Five Dragons and Lost Leopard, I've even won a tournament with Invincible Wall, so I'm not talking down the forms, just brought up a statement I had heard. Didn't mean for anybody to use it as ammo!


 
I wasn't taking a shot at you at all.  The statement is one that has been said time and time again and I certainly was not taking a shot at the GM who said it.  But due to the bad publicity we as skk practitioners have gotten from whatever the case may be it is what I think we are all (atleast here) trying to overcome.  I believe Marlon but it quite elegantly, thanks again Marlon.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> That's a very astute question, one I am now happhy to answer.
> 
> Chriostopher Geary never reached black belt under a SKK teacher, so he never learned any of them. He later trained on his own until Nick Cerio would rank him by video, but I don't beleive he learend any new material form him just got notes on correcting what he already did. Plus Cerio wanted the money.
> 
> Later Geary did train some under Lou Angel, and that is where the Okinawan forms come in.
> 
> Will Sensei Steiner, now FREE of Geary's control, keep the Okinawan forms, or do away with them? That quesiton is still open. We don't have any training on the SKK forms, so I doubt if they will get put back in.
> 
> I think we may end up with some differnet forms also from Okinawan kempo thanks to Sensei Steiner's association with Evan Pantazzi and guys like Asa Seely and Mark Kline. Hakkatsuru mei, Kin Ken; Naihanchi for exmaple I know he has been studying. We will probably keep Sanchin, but it move it down to where we start teaching it at Blue. Everything is up in the air right now.
> 
> I don't think our negative impressions of SKK mainstream comes form Villari or even Mattera's bad business practices. I think it comes from the general lack of quality at places like USSD. Like was said above - it's the teachers.
> 
> I wrote an article for out student manul on the history of Shaolin kempo. This is the closing paragraph:
> 
> [/font]


 
Nice job David.


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> We will need to go over your #46 and mine. As for Lost Leopard it was created by GM Fred Bagley for the tournaments then added as you said-- no hidden anything and thats from the source.


 
I look forward to it sir and thank you for the confirmation.


----------



## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> Nice job David.


 
Thanks, and if it wasn't obvious, I am referring to you guys and people like you


----------



## DavidCC

John Bishop said:


> Fight more. Kata less.:btg:


 I agree totally.  if it were up to me I would probably drop half the kata we have before black, and probably most of the post-black as well... for example the Pinan forms are FULL of applications that we RARELY study, so why are we practicing them???

I might keep pinan 2 and pinan 4 because: 2 is a good beginner form with relevant applications that go well with our combinations, and 4 uses movemnts that echo some of our combinations and features footwork and blocking that also mesh well with the rest of the system.  I would probably keep kata 1 and maybe one of the higher ones (I only know 1-3 so far so can't say for sure which would stay or go).

it seems to me the only reason we have 10 forms up to black is to support the business model :/  People seem to prefer learning something new over perfecting something they already know.  Rent must be paid, and in a small market like Omaha we have to cater somewhat to our customers' desires.


----------



## Jdokan

RevIV said:


> *"Invincible Wall"*
> Our version of being backed up against a wall. There are a few sections that I would like to get others opinions on. A simple one and one that might not be easily told.
> 1). towards end turning left after Left front kick/side kick combo.
> my next move is,, L. inward palm block-R leopard paw throat, right rooster stance (R. crane, but instep of foot goes behind L. knee) I do that all simo. and exexute it as a block for a R. punch, strike neck and knee groin at same time.
> 
> 2). Back up to the crazy hand movements after right driving front punch. sequence I have (get ready to not understand if you have never been taught this form) downward open hand X block, R. outward chx wrist, R. inward palm, R. downward palm, L. back punch, L. over R. trap, R. chx wrist up, R. over L trap, L. Downward hamer onto R. wrist, R. chx wrist in front to chin simo L hammer to side groin area. -------- What the heck is going on in this one? was told numerous times but none obviously stuck because i still do not know.
> 
> (marlon and matt -- do not tell me we are working on combo #6 and #7 lefty in the first question for the double kick.. hehehe)





RevIV said:


> *"Invincible Wall"*





RevIV said:


> Our version of being backed up against a wall. There are a few sections that I would like to get others opinions on. A simple one and one that might not be easily told.
> 1). towards end turning left after Left front kick/side kick combo.
> my next move is,, L. inward palm block-R leopard paw throat, right rooster stance (R. crane, but instep of foot goes behind L. knee) I do that all simo. and exexute it as a block for a R. punch, strike neck and knee groin at same time.
> 
> 2). Back up to the crazy hand movements after right driving front punch. sequence I have (get ready to not understand if you have never been taught this form) downward open hand X block, R. outward chx wrist, R. inward palm, R. downward palm, L. back punch, L. over R. trap, R. chx wrist up, R. over L trap, L. Downward hamer onto R. wrist, R. chx wrist in front to chin simo L hammer to side groin area. -------- What the heck is going on in this one? was told numerous times but none obviously stuck because i still do not know.
> 
> 
> Hey!....Thanks for taking the time to talk the other day!!!   Totally appreciate it
> Heres my take:
> 
> 1.)Same except my block & paw are inside the right arm attacking strike (r/palm, l/strike)..
> 
> 2) My downward cross is smothering palmsr: chicken wrist ( also called ox jaw in the past????)cross palm block, downward palm edge (hand in a vertical sword fashion), l backfist/Rican strike, l/trapping hammer fist  to the top of the r/hand, r/_ridge hand strike_ to the face, r/ trapping palm again, l/ swinging or circular downward hammer to other hand again trapping another strike, swap the feet into a r/forward foot stance; r/rising chicken wrist to their face w/ simultaneous left hammer to the forward/starting position attacker.
> 
> I did have it explained one time what each block was doing, the concept was single hand blocking at rapid speed ( kind of Plum tree) mingled with a couple of strikes.


----------



## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> *"Invincible Wall"*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> 2) My downward cross is smothering palmsr: chicken wrist ( also called ox jaw in the past????)cross palm block, downward palm edge (hand in a vertical sword fashion), l backfist/Rican strike, l/trapping hammer fist to the top of the r/hand, r/_ridge hand strike_ to the face, r/ trapping palm again, l/ swinging or circular downward hammer to other hand again trapping another strike, swap the feet into a r/forward foot stance; r/rising chicken wrist to their face w/ simultaneous left hammer to the forward/starting position attacker.
> 
> I did have it explained one time what each block was doing, the concept was single hand blocking at rapid speed ( kind of Plum tree) mingled with a couple of strikes.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, the explanation given to me was as vague as it was given to you.  We have it almost identical,,  how could it be an Ox jaw thats not in our system, right MARLON?  kidding aside.  Thank you for stopping into the dojo, were you able to watch the dvd i gave you?  hope all is well and cant wait for you to come in and have fun with my advanced group.
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## Jdokan

Great dvd!!!   Need multple viewing to appreciate everything on it..... Thank you for sharing....
I would enjoy a Monday night....I'll talk off-line to set something up......
jeff,


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> Jdokan said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, the explanation given to me was as vague as it was given to you. We have it almost identical,, how could it be an Ox jaw thats not in our system, right MARLON? kidding aside. Thank you for stopping into the dojo, were you able to watch the dvd i gave you? hope all is well and cant wait for you to come in and have fun with my advanced group.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Humbley, i have not attain the ox level of kempo yet!!!
> 
> Marlon
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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Humbley, i have not attain the ox level of kempo yet!!!
> 
> Marlon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL ... the ox jaw is also found in the version I have of "White Crane" as well.
Click to expand...


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## Jdokan

marlon said:


> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Humbley, i have not attain the ox level of kempo yet!!!
> 
> Marlon
> 
> 
> 
> I've been told I resembled that....or was it a bull in a China shop???
> LOL.....
> enjoy the day!
> j,
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