# Score one more for verbal judo.



## Josh Oakley (Apr 23, 2012)

So I get off work, and head to the karaoke bar. I get there and the girls in the group tell me there's a... situation. Specifically, a bunch of huge Samoans who have been drinking WAY too much have been way too inappropriate with the girls: talking disrespectfully to them, groping them, knocking them into tables "inadvertently", etc.


So I make buddy buddy with the one who seems the most sober. We chat, and everything is copacetic until I ask him to talk to his buddies about treating the ladies a bit more appropriately, keeping hands off, and whatnot, and that's when the mood gets darker. Well the buddies reconvene at the table, and they get more and more heated. The tallest one, about 7 feet tall to be more precise, kept telling me "You need to get the f*** out of here". The only time I slightly lost my calm was when the 7-footer grabbed my collar and repeated himself. I looked at him point blank and told him, "I don't want you to put your hands on me". Though he did not calm down, he let go of my collar.


The more aggressive they got, the calmer I got. Eventually, the bartender invervened, told them to leave. The whole group (5 in all, including the three that were being aggressive with me) left, and we went on with the night.


Now, at the point where the big guy put his hands on me, I could have retaliated. Here's why I didn't:


*1) THEY WERE ALL VERY, VERY LARGE.* This means the options available to me for self defense would have put at least the first guy in the hospital... and very likely would have joined him in the process. Samoans, especially large samoans, are hard to physically manipulate. They can take a lot of damage, and they can deal even more damage than they can take. I'd have gone for his groin, his already extended arm, his eyes and his throat, quite rapidly, because all it would take is one punch to knock me out cold. And the thing is, I REALLY don't like hurting people, even more than I don't like getting hurt.

*2) THERE WERE 5 OF THEM. *This exponentially increases the odds of me getting beaten to a bloody pulp. Now, I have a lot of friends at this bar, and by the time I got there, there were a lot of people angry at these guys by the time I got there, and I found out afterward that a number of people were gearing up to jump in and help me out, including my best friend (another martial artist who is never without a knife), the 2 bikers in the bar who I've always been cool with (they like the way I sing), the guy running the karaoke machine, one of the bartenders, and three guys who were the significant others of girls who had been manhandled. I like my bar. I'm a regular at this bar. The last thing I want is for it to be destroyed in a bar brawl.


*3) I DON'T LIKE HOSPITALS. *Let's be real. I'm not super man. One guy, especially a guy that big, only had to connect one time, and it's all over for me. And there were 5 of these giants. 

*4) I DON'T LIKE HURTING PEOPLE. *So let's say I manage to take on all these guys, some how. Now I would have to live with the fact that I may have caused a lot of damage to another person. It's not fun to live with that. I prefer the peaceful method. I'd rather make a friend, if possible


So that's the story in a nut shell. They got kicked out, and may not be allowed to come back in for a good while. I was Hero of the day, and everyone walked away ftom the altercation unscathed.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 23, 2012)

Youre reminding Me of My Taekwon-Doorlock in the middle of the night (literally), in which I avoided scrapping with some doped/drunk-to-the-point-of-being-barely-able-to-walk-but-spaced-out-enough-to-be-violent Youths.

They said some threatening things, I locked My car door, They tried to open it, shouted something, then lost interest. Bluntly, I wouldnt have had any trouble - They could barely walk, or form sentences. They were just going around banging things with their hands and shouting. Itd have been interesting to watch them try and do anything hostile, but at the same time, being boxed in by other cars meant that just leaving wasnt an option, and there was about six of them, so actually doing something would have been the only course of action.

Were it not for Taekwon-Doorlock. Because I have better things to do than deal with the legal proceedings that would have ensued, it would have achieved absolutely nothing, and really, I have no interest in causing violence, unless its completely unavoidable.
And plus, who knows. The adrenalin might have sobered them up enough to actually be dangerous. They could have had weapons. There was just no possible reason to not prevent the situation from escalating.

Ive also kinda been looking for an excuse to recount that. This seems like the perfect place. I mentioned it ages ago, but only very offhand.
And plus, I think that these types of events can perhaps emphasize that reflexively fighting fire with fire, is not always necessary, and not always a good idea.

So, heres to You, for being sound minded, Good Sir


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 23, 2012)

Sounds like you had the right attitude.  Guys who are looking for a fight tend to cue off of signs of either fear (which helps make them confident) or agression (which helps them get mad) or inattention (which tempts them to throw a sucker punch).  If you can stay super calm, confident, and alert your odds of controlling the situation without violence go way up.


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## Brian King (Apr 23, 2012)

Good for you Josh,
*6.* If you had been drinking and the brawl kicked off and the cops had been called, chances are good that you would also have some LEO issues. Just takes one 'friend' to say "that's when Josh hit the dude" type of comment to an officer. 

It wasn't to long ago that the local Vietnamese gangs and Samoan gangs were having some trouble. The Vietnamese were very well armed and still came out on the short end of the conflicts, with some deaths by beating with street sign poles, if memory serves. 

The Samoans here in the Northwest are clannish. They stick together right or wrong cause they are truly family. Imagine somebody you just met coming up to you and saying your brother and cousin is being inappropriate with our girls...  A mistake you might have made is talking to him about his 'buddies' rather than his family. It is slight but the tone and manner of each type of intervention is different. Sober Samoans are great folks, honest and very laid back, drinking can lead to issues (painting with broad brush) and you do not want to get mixed up in a feud. Make friends and you often have a friend for life. 

It is often the same with biker groups and military units. They consider themselves family, fight one and fight them all mentality. 

As long as this mentality is recognized it can sometimes be manipulated by a professional or someone with the proper training and/or instincts. Those other times, well it is going to get lumpy and quickly becomes a survival brawl rather than a mere bar brawl. 

A sympathetic nod and shrug of shoulders. Dude, yo, Bro, Brother, whatever is the local custom informal greeting. Something like "Yo, this sucks man." Wha- they might ask. "Out of town bar owners suck dude" (make sure you pick somebody that sucks that is not there and is paid to be the hard ***) "Man, if the bar gets too many complaints from the locals they 'have' to call the cops. the locals know and complain to the owner and he is tired of the complaints and so warned the bar staff that anymore 'issues' and they are fired, no questions no second chances" F-them is often a response. "I know right!" (agreeing with them with words and body language) "But man, jobs are tough to get" "and everyone has family to feed and bills to pay, you know?" Yeah-SO might be a response. "eh, I don know" "Just I heard that there has already been a couple of complaints, you know?" Again empathetic body language. "I hate to see the cops have to be called out here, I like this place even if populated by pusses LOL" "Such a hassle and the local PD sucks." Always hassling people and arresting them for no reason." "I just got my drivers license back and it cost me 2500 bucks dude" Yeah, that sucks might be response. "And that doesn't even count the attorney fees, descriptive cussing to describe attorneys and their families and ancestors" "Cuss words again, trouble almost cost me my job and the attorneys almost cost me my whatever (marriage, my classic car, my motorcycle just make sure the vehicle is not one you actually own...if there is somebody you don't like that happens to own a vehicle that matches that description...that would be wrong)" "anyway, I like useguys and think it's bs, but you know" F-em again might be the response. "I know dude, right. I jus know that if the cops were going to be called on me I would want to know. Let's do a shot" If they are cool do a shot if not do a shot anyway but have yours be water and theirs a potent triple or three is often a tactic. Ready to pass out is easier to fight than half drunk...just saying. 

The idea is getting them to see that the system, unnamed non present powers are arrayed against them and others. Getting them to see that others have no choice and have families to take care of. Getting them to focus on attorney fees and Police drama and what a pain those are, these are things that can get them to tone it down or leave yet still leave them pride, face whatever you want to call it. 

Far better to remain calm and pick your battles. Is it worth dying and killing for should be a thought kept in mind. Congratulations on remaining calm Josh while facing immediate harm and a physical interpersonal conflict and crime. The intimidating and grabbing is assault and likely battery but being able to resolve the conflict without further drama and no bloodshed is a victory. My only advice to you might be to take a few minutes to figure out what you did right, what could be improved on, and learn those lessons, then sing on brother. 

Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## jks9199 (Apr 23, 2012)

Brian's posted one good tactic for the verbal side of things; let me throw another one out for consideration.  Remember that I don't know your actual phrasing -- and that I think, overall, you did a great job handling it -- and a great explanation of why you did what you did, and didn't do what you didn't.  Being able to explain that is a great tool -- and this was good practice at articulating what happened in case it had gone bad.

You approached one of them, and essentially it seems like you said "Your friends/buddies/pals are being asses.  Make 'em stop, huh?"  You put him and his friends in a hot seat and on the spot.  Instead, share the problem without identifying the culprits.  "Hey, these girls feel like they're being manhandled.  Maybe you guys can help them feel safe..."  Make stopping the behavior the problem, without putting them on the spot for being the ones to cause it.  It doesn't always work; sometimes, they'll say something like "let 'em sit in our laps, and NOBODY will bother them..."  but you've given them a face saving way to stop the behaviors.


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 23, 2012)

Brian and jks, very good advice. I knew about how samoans have a tendancy to be Jekyl and hyde when it comes to alcohol, and that if you fight one, you fight them all. And it would have ended up as Samoans vs. military and bikers. Brian, you gave me some good cultural advice I hadn't known about. jks, I think your approach might ave kept them from feeling threatened. Thanks, guys.

I have maintained that the most important skill you can have in your tool box is the ability to diffuse a situation. It's what, in my opinion, separates a true martial artist from a highly trained brute.


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## chinto (Apr 24, 2012)

yep that was a ticklish situation. always good to have it go down with out violence.  especially when they are that large. like you said you have to do a large amount of damage fast to stop some one that size.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 24, 2012)

Good on you Josh.  You were skillful, but also lucky I think.  If they had really been in a mood to fight, he would not likely have let go of your collar except to drop your tattered and bruised body.

But apparently you demeanor was that of someone who did not expect to lose, and that gave them pause.  Again, good.  But I would hope you don't run into them again.  They really sound a bit like thugs.


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Good on you Josh.  You were skillful, but also lucky I think.  If they had really been in a mood to fight, he would not likely have let go of your collar except to drop your tattered and bruised body.
> 
> But apparently you demeanor was that of someone who did not expect to lose, and that gave them pause.  Again, good.  But I would hope you don't run into them again.  They really sound a bit like thugs.



Actually I have the feeling if I met them sober, they would be cool guys. Alcohol has some detrimental effects on people, especially as much as they have.

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cyriacus (Apr 24, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Actually I have the feeling if I met them sober, they would be cool guys. Alcohol has some detrimental effects on people, especially as much as they have.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk 2



Especially on their Self Control. They were probably just having passive conversation with these women before They were sufficiently intoxicated as to push the point.


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 27, 2012)

From all accounts they were far from passive. But there was alcohol involved on their part, so it's not really surprising. This is why I rarely get drunk, and never in public. Least of all a bar.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 27, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> From all accounts they were far from passive. But there was alcohol involved on their part, so it's not really surprising. This is why I rarely get drunk, and never in public. Least of all a bar.


Ah. I presumed they werent drunk the whole time, which in My experience, is more frequent than them initiating contact whilst intoxicated. Good to know!


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