# Knife Defense



## MJS (Jul 8, 2008)

On another forum which I'm a member of, some clips were posted of knife defense. Some questions arose as to the effectiveness or practicality of what was being shown. For reference, I will link each youtube clip. 

Clip 1
[yt]-1nyV_ZtHQ0&eurl=[/yt]


Clip 2
[yt]fEZ6P0S2cas&feature=related[/yt]


Clip 3
[yt]kcwKu_UzwQk&eurl=[/yt]


The knife work for clip 3 does not start until about 30sec into the clip.  Additionally, clip 3 does not just focus on blade work, however for this discussion, that is the only part that I'm looking to discuss. 

Some of the concerns that came up were too much distance between the opponent and the defender, the risk of being open to counter shots by the opponent, the idea of taking the person to the ground in clip 1, and the use of the under hook grab that we see in clips 1 and 2.


Let the discussion begin!:ultracool


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## KenpoTex (Jul 8, 2008)

MJS said:
			
		

> Some of the concerns that came up were too much distance between the opponent and the defender, the risk of being open to counter shots by the opponent, the idea of taking the person to the ground in clip 1, and the use of the under hook grab that we see in clips 1 and 2.


 
As we've discussed before, I'm a big fan of the Red Zone/STAB/Dog Catcher type methods, all of which are designed to deal with the "prison shanking, anything goes" type attack and assume a high level of aggression and forward drive on the part of the attacker.  I mention the 3 together because regardless of the initial "pickup," they all end up in the outside 2-on-1 type position seen in the first two videos (people tend to gravitate toward the things that work).

My guys and I have spent a fair amount of time working this stuff at full-speed and a pretty high level of contact so I have a few observations to offer regarding the concerns you listed.

_"too much distance between opponent and defender"_ and _"risk of being open to counter shots."_   IMO, the solution to both of these problems is to maintain aggressive forward drive ourselves.  Once I've seen my opening and decide to make my move, I don't *ever* want to allow the other guy to regain initiative.  By being aggressive and driving into the guy, I'm going to do a better job of controlling the knife-arm by not allowing that distance between us, I'm also going to be able, to a large extent, to neutralize his attempts at striking with his other hand since it's hard to generate powerful strikes when you're being aggressively driven back and having your face slammed into the floor.

As far as using the 2-on-1/underhook position, I really like this position in this context because it does allow a significant amount of control over the weapon-arm, and if done correctly (once again, with the requisite amount of aggression) will make it difficult for him to strike effectively with his other hand. 

I wasn't too impressed with the knife portions in the third clip...it looked to me like the typical "give me the pre-arranged attack so I can do my flashy technique" type stuff...it seemed very "static."  I'd like to see that stuff attempted against someone who was pumping the knife in and out and mixing in strikes with the other hand.  I have a feeling it wouldn't work as well against a more realistic attack energy.

just my $0.02


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## MJS (Jul 9, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> As we've discussed before, I'm a big fan of the Red Zone/STAB/Dog Catcher type methods, all of which are designed to deal with the "prison shanking, anything goes" type attack and assume a high level of aggression and forward drive on the part of the attacker. I mention the 3 together because regardless of the initial "pickup," they all end up in the outside 2-on-1 type position seen in the first two videos (people tend to gravitate toward the things that work).


 
Likewise, and I've enjoyed your feedback and discussion with you on those videos!   I have the 1st Red Zone tape and I really like what is shown.  I also have a STAB tape and enjoy Karls views as well.  I came across this clip of the Dog Bros.  Watch from 5min on.  There are parts that are blocked out for a bit, but its visable that they're using the same methods, against people who're being much more aggressive than what we see in clip 3.  Funny how those methods are being disregarded by the other forum, yet we have the Dog Bros doing them.  *Caution:  Some strong language and graphic shots in this clip.*



> My guys and I have spent a fair amount of time working this stuff at full-speed and a pretty high level of contact so I have a few observations to offer regarding the concerns you listed.
> 
> _"too much distance between opponent and defender"_ and _"risk of being open to counter shots."_ IMO, the solution to both of these problems is to maintain aggressive forward drive ourselves. Once I've seen my opening and decide to make my move, I don't *ever* want to allow the other guy to regain initiative. By being aggressive and driving into the guy, I'm going to do a better job of controlling the knife-arm by not allowing that distance between us, I'm also going to be able, to a large extent, to neutralize his attempts at striking with his other hand since it's hard to generate powerful strikes when you're being aggressively driven back and having your face slammed into the floor.


 
You hit the nail on the head!!  Being aggressive is the key, and thats what we see with the RZ/STAB concept.  



> As far as using the 2-on-1/underhook position, I really like this position in this context because it does allow a significant amount of control over the weapon-arm, and if done correctly (once again, with the requisite amount of aggression) will make it difficult for him to strike effectively with his other hand.


 
Agreed!  Additionally, with the hand pinned to the body the way it is, you also run the possibility of causing some hyper-extension to the opponent.  



> I wasn't too impressed with the knife portions in the third clip...it looked to me like the typical "give me the pre-arranged attack so I can do my flashy technique" type stuff...it seemed very "static." I'd like to see that stuff attempted against someone who was pumping the knife in and out and mixing in strikes with the other hand. I have a feeling it wouldn't work as well against a more realistic attack energy.
> 
> just my $0.02


 
My thought as well.  It was said that what they were doing were random attacks.  While that may be the case, I didn't see have the aggression that I saw in the other clips, including the DB clip.  Now, working a flow drill has its pros, but those ideas need to be worked into what you're more likely to see.  The other hand, as you mention, is something that is often neglected.  Hell, I do drill in Arnis in which my other hand is clearing the other persons, so whats to say that I couldn't include a shot as well.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 9, 2008)

MJS said:


> Likewise, and I've enjoyed your feedback and discussion with you on those videos!  I have the 1st Red Zone tape and I really like what is shown. I also have a STAB tape and enjoy Karls views as well. I came across this clip of the Dog Bros. Watch from 5min on. There are parts that are blocked out for a bit, but its visable that they're using the same methods, against people who're being much more aggressive than what we see in clip 3. Funny how those methods are being disregarded by the other forum, yet we have the Dog Bros doing them. *Caution: Some strong language and graphic shots in this clip.*


 
Just for everyone's information...The DVD that the above mentioned clip was taken from is "Die Less Often" Vol. I which was a joint project between Gabe Suarez (a well-known firearms instructor who has quite a bit of martial-arts experience of his own) and Marc Denny (co-founder of the Dog Brothers). It is definately worth the price ($70 or so for 3 disks). 

In fact, I really think this particular set should be mandatory for _anyone_ who claims to train for self-defense because they "myth bust" many popular techniques and tactics. 
Since the DVD was shot during a seminar, you get to see people from a wide range of training backgrounds (including many .mil and LEO types) _attempting_ to use their training against a very realistic knife attack (I say attempting because the "traditional" or "mainstream" methods failed in the face of this level of intensity).  Then you get to see them progress through the material being taught, and prevailing against the attacker.

Even if the "martial-artists" dismiss Gabe as some sort of gun toting knuckle-dragger, they can't say much when someone with Marc Denny's background is involved with the project.  Vol. 2 has been out for several months now...I don't have it yet but it's on my list.  (note: I'm not affiliated with them in any way, I just like to promote those who are putting out solid material).


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## MJS (Jul 9, 2008)

Hmmm...for some reason, the clip I linked is no longer working. So, in the meantime...

http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=118

http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=129


Some clips to give an idea as to what I originally linked.


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## Ahriman (Jul 9, 2008)

From these clips I missed what I miss in most cases - real aggression from the attacker. Stomps on the defendant's foot, low side kicks to the knees, headbutts, groin kicks - all these and more could've been made in those situations. This of course may be the result of focusing on the knife and on showing the concepts, in which case it's not a problem, but still...
...
Aggression is key in fighting, keeping the initiative _(or the vor for us WMA-based people) _is an absolute must.
...
Mr Suarez and Mr Denny surely know what they're talking about - I'm planning to buy their DVDs, I've been planning this for a long time but $70 is maybe cheap for you, for me it's the price of food for a month or so. :S _(here my cca $5000 yearly income is considered rather good - quite some of Hungarian families-of-four have to make it from that amount)_


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 9, 2008)

You know, I was going down the list after watching the videos thinking Red Zone.... and sure enough Ken mentioned it.

Unlike the videos, and attacker won't wait after you grab him and let you do your gig. There will be one heck of a tussle! That and there being several kinds of attacks it's best to just have one or two simple methods that work for YOU. It might mean dragging them down Red Zone style, or trapping the arm Krav Maga style. Or simply bringing your hands together with a 'V" were then thumbs meet, and trapping the wrist.

But the thing is, keep it simple and look for the technique that will work on someone who definaly is going to argue about it.

Deaf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 10, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> As we've discussed before, I'm a big fan of the Red Zone/STAB/Dog Catcher type methods, all of which are designed to deal with the "prison shanking, anything goes" type attack and assume a high level of aggression and forward drive on the part of the attacker. I mention the 3 together because regardless of the initial "pickup," they all end up in the outside 2-on-1 type position seen in the first two videos (people tend to gravitate toward the things that work).
> 
> My guys and I have spent a fair amount of time working this stuff at full-speed and a pretty high level of contact so I have a few observations to offer regarding the concerns you listed.
> 
> ...


 Yeah, it seems as though he is teaching to presume that the attack is going to be some wide, swinging stick like ark, and not a tight pumping/sewing machine action unstitching your internal organs.

What it looks like the guy has done is take the dynamics of a stick and try to transfer it directly to a knife.....failing to grasp that unlike a stick, you don't need kinetic energy and large arking motions to KILL with a blade.....a blade you simply keep sticking it in until the opponent is dead or no longer an issue. And human beings seem instinctively to pump the blade, not swing it in long arks.

I like Crafty Dog and Gabe Suarez's program......it deals with the issue of the pump. I think it may have been Crafty, but i'm not certain, who pointed out that many people want to look at fighting as if it were ballet or a choreographed dance routine.....when in reality these type of fights are much more like impromptu football games, with bodies slamming together!

That seems to sum it up with what i've seen....take two or more guys playing full contact football without equipment, throw in a knife, and you have a street or prison knife fight.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 10, 2008)

Ahriman said:


> From these clips I missed what I miss in most cases - real aggression from the attacker. Stomps on the defendant's foot, low side kicks to the knees, headbutts, groin kicks - all these and more could've been made in those situations. This of course may be the result of focusing on the knife and on showing the concepts, in which case it's not a problem, but still...
> ...
> Aggression is key in fighting, keeping the initiative _(or the vor for us WMA-based people) _is an absolute must.
> ...
> Mr Suarez and Mr Denny surely know what they're talking about - I'm planning to buy their DVDs, I've been planning this for a long time but $70 is maybe cheap for you, for me it's the price of food for a month or so. :S _(here my cca $5000 yearly income is considered rather good - quite some of Hungarian families-of-four have to make it from that amount)_


 I highly recommend Suarez and Denny's program/DVDs on the subject.....they teach simplicity, and then train it hard!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 10, 2008)

Hey, Kenpo.......speaking of the Dog Brothers, do you think there's much interest in the Springfield area for a Crafty Dog seminar? I'm going to try to make it to the one in Bloomington, IL. in October, and Dan Inosanto in Oklahoma in November, but it seems like I have to travel all over the country to get to some of the better seminars. 

Down my way we don't have enough interest to make it worth trying to host a seminar, but if there's enough interest in your direction I could fill two or three slots at any seminar someone could host....hint, hint, hint....


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## KenpoTex (Jul 10, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I think it may have been Crafty, but i'm not certain, who pointed out that many people want to look at fighting as if it were ballet or a choreographed dance routine.....when in reality these type of fights are much more like impromptu football games, with bodies slamming together!
> 
> That seems to sum it up with what i've seen....take two or more guys playing full contact football without equipment, throw in a knife, and you have a street or prison knife fight.


 I do believe that was Marc...he also compared the attack energy of a realistic attacker to "a crazed chimpanzee with a spike" 



sgtmac_46 said:


> Hey, Kenpo.......speaking of the Dog Brothers, do you think there's much interest in the Springfield area for a Crafty Dog seminar? I'm going to try to make it to the one in Bloomington, IL. in October, and Dan Inosanto in Oklahoma in November, but it seems like I have to travel all over the country to get to some of the better seminars.
> 
> Down my way we don't have enough interest to make it worth trying to host a seminar, but if there's enough interest in your direction I could fill two or three slots at any seminar someone could host....hint, hint, hint....


  PM Sent.


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 17, 2008)

I disagree with the first clip when he says the reverse grip is always what a skilled knife fighter would use.  I think the forward grip can be just as effective!


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## Phadrus00 (Jul 17, 2008)

Mike,

Thanks for posting up the links and starting an interesting discussion!

So my perspective is as an FMA practicioner and a Silat Player so I am biased in that respect.

The first two videos made me feel uncomfortable not so mch because of the jamming technique.. I thought that was pretty solid and have several similar entries in both FMA and Silat.  The stuff I got wiggly about is what came next.  In the first clip the guy took his attacker to the ground with the knife still engaged.  At several points his femoral arteries were very close to the weapon and could have easily been cut.

In the second clip the action did not go tot the ground but there was clearly the concept of "struggling" with the knife in play.  As a previous poster pointed out, the blade requires almost No kinetic energy to be lethal.  one short cut to the throat and it's over OR again a cut inside the leg and you bleed out.  Wrestling with someone with an edged weapon is a bad idea!

I actually liked the third clip (again..my bias) as they were taking a more familiar approach to the knife for me.  the key thing they were demonstrating was sectoring to the outside, away from the blade and trying to incapacitate the opponent directly or incapacitate the hand holding the weapon and by extension the opponent.  

I wont argue that taking an agressive stance and pushing hard is an effective way to overwhelm your opponent.  It is.  But given the lethality of the knife it is really rolling the dice somewhat.  If the opponent gts in one lucky shot you are dead.  You can't shake off an arterial cut.

I have never been in a knife fight but I have been cut many times during practice and I have an appreciation for the effectiveness of the blade.  Several of my Instructors have had direct expereince with the blade and their advice has always been pretty clear.  Keep it simple, immobilize the weapon hand and disarm them as quickly as possible, even if you have to take damage in doing so.  Don't let the blade stay in play as it is too easy to slip in and kill you.

Regards,
Rob


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## pesilat (Jul 17, 2008)

Mike Hamer said:


> I disagree with the first clip when he says the reverse grip is always what a skilled knife fighter would use.  I think the forward grip can be just as effective!



In fact, as someone who trains with blades regularly and has trained with a lot of top notch blade people from around the world, I would say that the default grip tends to be the forward grip.

Both grips have advantages and disadvantages. The reverse grip is good for concealment and for power thrusts - but doesn't provide much more reach than your fist. The forward grip has a longer reach and is often more versatile (though this depends to some extent on the person using it) but it doesn't conceal quite as easily.

All the blade guys I know, though, agree that ultimately there isn't a "preference." However the knife comes into the grip is pretty much how it will be used. Whether it's in forward grip or reverse grip with the edge facing toward me or away from me (assuming it's not a double edged blade) that's generally how I'll use it. I've trained with all of those so it doesn't really matter to me. Changing grips in the midst of a fight is generally not necessary or particularly advantageous and that means it's generally a waste of motion/time. Also, if you haven't trained changing grips a lot then that's when you're most likely to drop the blade.

Another mark in favor of forward grip as a "primary" is the near ubiquity (at least here in the States) of the "tactical folder." Most of these are designed to draw and open into a forward grip. Also, in most daily activities that require blade usage - cooking, opening packages, cutting cordage, etc. - forward grip is used. Often it's used in these functions because it provides a higher degree of control in most situations. Point is, though, most people (including trained blade people) will have spent as much or more time in their life using a blade in forward grip than in reverse grip - there will be exceptions, of course, but I would make an educated guess that this is the way the statistics would lean.

Mike


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## Mike Hamer (Jul 17, 2008)

Thanks for the insight, I agree with all of your info on that one


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## Hawke (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm a newbie so take all this with a grain of salt.

I have only seen the first two clips so far.

Not much to add.

Clip #1: Notice the defender try to control the knife arm, but not the meat of the thumb.  He will have some serious health issues from an aggressive attacker.  

Clip#2: Notice that the defender controls the knife arm AND the meat of the thumb.  

I highly recommend Die Less Often 1 & 2.  DLO 3 hopefully will be out this year.  More advance students will get more out of the series because they will know what to look for.  Nothing is 100%.  These techniques are to increase your probability for survival so you will die less often.

DLO 1 - knife vs gun
DLO 2 - gun vs gun/knife
DLO 3 - empty hand vs knife 

I am so looking forward to DLO 3.


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## kwaichang (Jul 18, 2008)

You know, eons ago I felt fairly comfortable with my knife defense work.
I could even run away then; faster than most.
Now it's brain or S&W.:shock:


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 19, 2008)

Hawke said:


> I'm a newbie so take all this with a grain of salt.
> 
> I have only seen the first two clips so far.
> 
> ...


 You are absolutely correct.......Marc and Gabe's material is TOP SHELF first rate stuff.....state of the art and I too am eagerly awaiting DLO 3.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 19, 2008)

I do want to point out one thing.......in Rey Galangs book, 'Masters of the Blade', W. Hock Hochheim makes a convincing argument that we should not discount a knife disarm technique solely on it's failure in the prison type pumping machine situations.  He argues that, though it's important to train for that kind of 'worst case scenario', there are other situations where some of those other techniques are very effective and applicable in knife defense.


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## arnisador (Jul 19, 2008)

I think that's a good point. As I read the papers and speak with LEOs I hear of many cases where a spouse or parent picks up a kitchen knife in a fight. A local LEO had to defend against the classic "Psycho"-style over head attack from a dazed woman in her own kitchen. She raised the arm then froze and he just punched her in the face. She dropped the knife. All sorts of things happen.

By the way, _Masters of the Blade_ has a lot of good segments in it. Not all are winners, but overall it's an excellent resource for those interested in the FMA angle on knives.


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## kwaichang (Jul 19, 2008)

There is a tendency in our planning to confuse the unfamiliar with the improbable. The contingency we have not considered seriously looks strange; what looks strange is thought improbable; what is improbable need not be considered seriously.

Thomas Schelling

IMO, &#8220;Never bring a knife to a gunfight. Bring a gun. Preferably, bring at least two guns.&#8221; and be prepared to do that every day.


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## thetruth (Jul 19, 2008)

The last video was no different to any other predetermined attack scenario.  The first one seemed to offer little after grabbing the arm.  The 2nd seemed ok but they were always trying to get the same type of grab and move from there. But as mentioned there was zero aggression from the attackers.  I also believe that one should mention and condition people mentally to the fact they are almost always going to get cut while defending against a knife attack.  Lastly the eyes were never mentioned as an defense target.  A while back a guy in South Australia was attacked with a knife. He was stabbed 5 times and in dire straits but managed to gouge the attackers eyes to the point the attacker begged him to let go, dropped the knife and ran away.   

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## zDom (Jul 21, 2008)

The important thing, regardless of the type of attack you are facing (psycho style, pumping, whatever) is to have a "GET the KNIFE" mindset instead of a "Oh noes! He has a knife! Oh noes!" mindset.

Yea, might still get cut or stabbed once or twice.. but couple cuts or stab wounds isn't as bad a being stabbed over and over and over again until you are dead.

Easy to poke holes in techniques with all the "what ifs" but training even "faulty" techniques and developing that "get the knife" mentality is better than no training at all, eh?


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## jks9199 (Jul 21, 2008)

zDom said:


> The important thing, regardless of the type of attack you are facing (psycho style, pumping, whatever) is to have a "GET the KNIFE" mindset instead of a "Oh noes! He has a knife! Oh noes!" mindset.
> 
> Yea, might still get cut or stabbed once or twice.. but couple cuts or stab wounds isn't as bad a being stabbed over and over and over again until you are dead.
> 
> Easy to poke holes in techniques with all the "what ifs" but training even "faulty" techniques and developing that "get the knife" mentality is better than no training at all, eh?


Actually, one of my biggest issues with a lot of unarmed defensive techniques for dealing with armed attackers is the emphasis on taking the weapon away, whether it's a gun or knife.  My opinion is that, if you're forced to go unarmed against a knife or gun -- why get into a wrestling match over the weapon.  Move in, and take the attacker out of the fight...  If they're down & out -- then if you really want to, you can take the knife.

In other words -- I say "GET THE BASTARD!" instead of "get the knife."


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## kwaichang (Jul 21, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Actually, one of my biggest issues with a lot of unarmed defensive techniques for dealing with armed attackers is the emphasis on taking the weapon away, whether it's a gun or knife. My opinion is that, if you're forced to go unarmed against a knife or gun -- why get into a wrestling match over the weapon. Move in, and take the attacker out of the fight... If they're down & out -- then if you really want to, you can take the knife.
> 
> In other words -- I say "GET THE BASTARD!" instead of "get the knife."


 
hmm, too bad Nicole didn't know that one.:shock:


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## zDom (Jul 22, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Move in, and take the attacker out of the fight...  If they're down & out -- then if you really want to, you can take the knife.
> 
> In other words -- I say "GET THE BASTARD!" instead of "get the knife."



But what are they doing with the knife as you are getting them ... ?

I don't think I want to trade punches for stabs, for example.

Once the knife is out of the picture there WILL be some bastard-getting, no doubt  Would be very difficult for me, in that situation, to not cross the line from "self defense" into "punishment."

But getting the knife out of their hand is first priority.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 22, 2008)

Ditto the control the knife first.

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/safetyarticles.htm 

Darren Lauer did a study where he had 85 police officers participate in scenario based training where they would be attacked with a knife without being forewarned.  The suspect would pull the knife, show it to the officer, say "I'm going to kill you pig" then start stabbing and slashing.  All of it was taped, and the officers interviewed afterwards.  

3/85 saw the knife prior to contact
10/85 realized that they were being stabbed repeatedly during the scenario
72/85 did not realize that they were being assaulted with a knife until the scenario was over, and the officers were advised to look at their uniforms to see the simulated thrusts and slices left behind by the chalked training knives

The only officers that "survived" the training were able to get control of their attackers knife arm and then attack the person.  Every one else "died".  

I teach get ahold of the knife, be it with our "H-block" (our version of the dog catcher), or a V-grip (similar to red zone defense from what I've seen), or the overhead pass for the psycho stab, then attack the other person.


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

I didn't make something clear; I'm not at all suggesting you don't deal with the hand that's holding a knife or gun.  But I do feel that in many cases, too much emphasis is placed on DISARMING the person, leading to wrestling matches over a deadly weapon.

Very bluntly -- they're attacking me with lethal force; I'm going to respond with lethal force.  I don't care if the force is a 2x4, a knife, or a gun.  Let's skip past all the variants of avoid the situation, run away, etc.  You're in a position where the attacker has a knife, and is going to cut or kill you with it.  You're close enough to act (this is key factor) but not far enough away to simply escape.  I prefer to move in, control the limb holding the weapon, and attack the person -- not try to remove the knife from their hand.  That's all.  I don't like the emphasis sometimes seen of taking the weapon away; I don't NEED their knife, if I take them out of the fight completely.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I didn't make something clear; I'm not at all suggesting you don't deal with the hand that's holding a knife or gun. But I do feel that in many cases, too much emphasis is placed on DISARMING the person, leading to wrestling matches over a deadly weapon.
> 
> Very bluntly -- they're attacking me with lethal force; I'm going to respond with lethal force. I don't care if the force is a 2x4, a knife, or a gun. Let's skip past all the variants of avoid the situation, run away, etc. You're in a position where the attacker has a knife, and is going to cut or kill you with it. You're close enough to act (this is key factor) but not far enough away to simply escape. I prefer to move in, control the limb holding the weapon, and attack the person -- not try to remove the knife from their hand. That's all. I don't like the emphasis sometimes seen of taking the weapon away; I don't NEED their knife, if I take them out of the fight completely.


 

Ah, I think we were saying the same thing, in different ways.  I'm not trying to get their knife away from them (I've never been able to pull any disarms off in Force on Force with smaller sized knives with any degree of success), but control their delivery system for that knife (aka, the arm).  Once I've gotten the arm under some control so they can't pump it into me or slash me, I'm hitting them with everything I can.  (We do a very hard forward drive when dealing with knives, trying to headbutt as we tie up the arm, the techniques get more nasty from there).


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## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Ah, I think we were saying the same thing, in different ways.  I'm not trying to get their knife away from them (I've never been able to pull any disarms off in Force on Force with smaller sized knives with any degree of success), but control their delivery system for that knife (aka, the arm).  Once I've gotten the arm under some control so they can't pump it into me or slash me, I'm hitting them with everything I can.  (We do a very hard forward drive when dealing with knives, trying to headbutt as we tie up the arm, the techniques get more nasty from there).


Yep; similar page.  My general choice for dealing unarmed with a weapon is to move DEEP inside, taking control of the arm/arms (level of control can vary from one to three points), and attack the wielder.  Too many times, I see defenses that focus on literal disarms end up wasting time fighting over the weapon, and keeping the defender in a dangerous place.


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## kwaichang (Jul 23, 2008)

Well said Skpot and JKS, x block and deep are crucial to most knife attacks.  Be aware of the weapon but don't attack the weapon.


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## still learning (Jul 25, 2008)

Hello, NO one knows how a knife attacter will use a knife againist you....

Class room training is NOT the same as on the streets...you mind and body will go into a adrenline stress mode

You will fight the way you were train...and on the streets..this could be different from any class room training...

BEST TO LEAVE AND RUN IF POSSIBLE...OR USE ANYTHING AROUND YOU FOR A WEAPON AND SHIELD.

Expect to get cut and lots of blood (yours)...You will have to put your mind in the attack mode or want to live mode to survive....?

Aloha,  (we just get one life only...keep it safe....)  RUN AND RUN AND RUN AWAY...)


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## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, NO one knows how a knife attacter will use a knife againist you....
> 
> Class room training is NOT the same as on the streets...you mind and body will go into a adrenline stress mode
> 
> ...


While we can't say exactly how someone will attack with a knife -- we can look at past attacks and what we see people who attack with knives doing, and make some reasonable guesses.

Based on that, we know that many attackers are going to strike from a position of advantage, with little warning, stabbing or cutting repeatedly.  We know that otheres will brandish a knife, and slash or hack, and we know that a few will use the stereotypical icepick stab.  We can assume that many people using a knife in an attack paired with a robbery or rape will probably have some familiarity with it's use, and may use different grips or "better" tactics.

And we know that lots of the knife defenses taught in various self defense and police defensive tactics classes aren't very useful in comparison to reported attacks.


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## allenjp (Jul 25, 2008)

As a side note the groundfighting techniques on the third clip are almost comical...good luck throwing someone off of a mount that way!!!


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## kwaichang (Jul 25, 2008)

I carry twenty-three great wounds, all got in battle. Seventy-five men have I killed with my own hands in battle. I scatter, I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor! 
....  :duh:  .....

oh, that's not me that's .....*Auda abu Tayi      *:wink:


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## allenjp (Jul 25, 2008)

kwaichang said:


> I carry twenty-three great wounds, all got in battle. Seventy-five men have I killed with my own hands in battle. I scatter, I burn my enemies' tents. I take away their flocks and herds. The Turks pay me a golden treasure, yet I am poor!
> .... :duh: .....
> 
> oh, that's not me that's .....*Auda abu Tayi *:wink:


 
Uhhhhh, OK. (huh???)


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## zDom (Jul 25, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Uhhhhh, OK. (huh???)



What? You don't know who Auda abu Tayi is?

Pfft.



...




...






...




ok.. i admit it.. i didn't either until 15 minutes ago when I googled him


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## allenjp (Jul 25, 2008)

still learning said:


> BEST TO LEAVE AND RUN IF POSSIBLE...OR USE ANYTHING AROUND YOU FOR A WEAPON AND SHIELD


 
DUDE! You stole my post! I was going to say that not facing a knife UNARMED would be the best thing to do. If that means using sand/dirt, rocks, a stick, a beer bottle (preferably for throwing), a briefcase, a shirt (if you have time to take it off), a piece of rope, anything to at least buy yourself some time to get away. I personally almost never go anywhere without some type of weapon anyway.


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## still learning (Jul 26, 2008)

Hello, Class room training is so..so.. different from the REAL WORLD?

Facing a knife with a real edge? ....a stranger holding the knife? .....

IS YOUR CLASSROOM TRAINING PREPARE YOU FOR THIS?   ....sometimes you may have to fight back...and use what you know....

Remember everything may happen very fast and at high speed...in your mind it may be slow motion as the knife enters your body.....

Aloha ( Knife...so much fun?....)   CUT you!!!


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## Skpotamus (Jul 26, 2008)

That's why you make your dojo training as realistic as possible. Use scenarios, have your "victim" unaware they are the target of the drill. Make the attacks as realistic as possible. 

If you havent' seen it yet, watch the youtube die less often video for ideas on how to make your training realistic





 
The point of training is to prepare you for a real attack. You're saying you should always run away. What if you're with your wife and child? Are you going to run away and leave them? Or do you think your wife and infant can outrun someone with a knife? That's called a nightmare scenario. Your only choice is to fight so they can get away. If your knife defense training consists solely of runing away, what will you do when you can't? What will you do if the person is too close for you to turn and run? Or they're too close for you to get a weapon to defend yourself?

People have defended themselves from real knife attacks without using weapons, do some digging around for police videos and surveilance camera vids all the reality shows like to play, see what those victimes did and how they survived. Figure out how to use what they did and how to make it work for you. Also, watch what the attackers are doing. In the videos I can find, the attackers all use "caveman" style attacks. Powerful, natural movements. Typically forehand swings (slashes and stabs), or downward (psycho stabs). All of them I saw did the same thing when getting ready to attack (hide the knife arm back and try to grab the person to pump the knife into them, called a sewing machine attack). 

Get some good knife training, Dog Brothers, Red Zone, James Keating, Mike Janich, Ray Floro, or some of the others listed in the sticky on the knife defense forums. 

Train hard, stay alert and be safe


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## still learning (Jul 27, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> That's why you make your dojo training as realistic as possible. Use scenarios, have your "victim" unaware they are the target of the drill. Make the attacks as realistic as possible.
> 
> If you havent' seen it yet, watch the youtube die less often video for ideas on how to make your training realistic
> 
> ...


 
Dojo is still a class room training....and does not prepare you for the REAL life knife attack....still better to learn something and be more prepare

IT is too dangerous to work with real knivies...but try it! ..put you in a different feeling when practicing!   ....try it out side in the dark too? in open areas or at the park?

Aloha,   ...to practice for real....the better...but NO way to really practice for REAL!


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 27, 2008)

truth be told there where more than a few cuts suffered in my instructors classes by the black belts. There have been a few in my classes suffered by those I trusted enough to train "Live blade" with.  We where all lucky no cut was serious enough to need hospital attention. If you train with a live blade some time or other someone is gonna get cut.
That cut also teaches you a great deal on how you will react in the street to a cut. 
Not even coming close to saying that I recommend people to train with a live blade. Most are not competent enough to


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## kwaichang (Jul 27, 2008)

Using a prop blade with chalked edges is much safer and will show when and where contact is made, thus exposing weakness in a defense.  Liability is a reality no one really wants.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 27, 2008)

Or use a Shock-Knife for added realism and 'pain' motivation.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 27, 2008)

still learning said:


> Dojo is still a class room training....and does not prepare you for the REAL life knife attack....still better to learn something and be more prepare
> 
> IT is too dangerous to work with real knivies...but try it! ..put you in a different feeling when practicing! ....try it out side in the dark too? in open areas or at the park?
> 
> Aloha, ...to practice for real....the better...but NO way to really practice for REAL!


 

Actually, we use either sharkee training knives with the marking edges so we can see where the knives are making contact.  Or we use training boffers we made so we can hit hard without damaging each other (still hurts, but doesnt' damage).  

We do train outdoors (weather permitting) for SD work sometimes, as well as in low light conditions.  We also practice in small rooms sometimes, and with lots of obstacles around. We also like to practice in street clothes, and a couple of us that carry knives have made training drones so we can practice deploying our folders when under stress.  A lot of our drills are "no warning drills".  Meaning we take students and attack them during class when they aren't necessarily expecting an attack, like during some instruction for a drill, when stopping ot get a drink, etc (only advanced students with instructors do much of this).  

Out of curiousity, how do you think that the master instructors practice?  Do they go out and get into knife fights?  How do the spec ops teams practice?  Do they actually practice sentry elimination by killing real guards?  I highly doubt it.  They use training scenarios that get as real as they can without actually killing people to instill the techniques, strategies and mindsets into their people so when the real thing happens, they don't just freeze up and die.  

You get out of your training what you put in.  Do some research, find knife attack videos, work out similar scenarios for students to practice in.  Be aggressive and forget your training when it's your turn to be the attacker and really go after your partner.  Make it as real as you can without actually killing each other.


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## MJS (Jul 27, 2008)

still learning said:


> Dojo is still a class room training....and does not prepare you for the REAL life knife attack....still better to learn something and be more prepare
> 
> IT is too dangerous to work with real knivies...but try it! ..put you in a different feeling when practicing! ....try it out side in the dark too? in open areas or at the park?
> 
> Aloha, ...to practice for real....the better...but NO way to really practice for REAL!


 
And the same can be said regarding alot of our dojo training.  However, there are steps that we can take to ensure that our training is a bit more real and alive.  In the case of the knife defense, there are tools such as the no lie blade and the more expensive shock knife, to give a more realistic feel to the defense.  Additionally, the roles need to be played with some realism as well.  While things may not be the real deal, we can still simulate to give the right mindset.


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## CatNap (Jul 27, 2008)

Yet how many styles out there really deal with reality fighting and enable students to deal with real life crisis situations?  Most exist to pass down an art: it's rooted in history, has a story about a culture, about a people, the movements aren't always combat oriented in the way at Karv maga is and Russian styles military oriented. I've often wondered about it myself.  Where do you turn for instruction geared towards hostage situations, knife and gun attacks and dirty fighting in general? 

Laura


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## KenpoTex (Jul 28, 2008)

CatNap said:


> Yet how many styles out there really deal with reality fighting and enable students to deal with real life crisis situations? Most exist to pass down an art: it's rooted in history, has a story about a culture, about a people, the movements aren't always combat oriented in the way at Karv maga is and Russian styles military oriented. I've often wondered about it myself. *Where do you turn for instruction geared towards hostage situations, knife and gun attacks and dirty fighting in general?*
> 
> Laura


A blend of MMA, combatives, and realistic weapons training.


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## thetruth (Jul 28, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> That's why you make your dojo training as realistic as possible. Use scenarios, have your "victim" unaware they are the target of the drill. Make the attacks as realistic as possible.
> 
> If you havent' seen it yet, watch the youtube die less often video for ideas on how to make your training realistic
> 
> ...




Has anyone here had experience with the 'dog catcher'?     It seems as though  there isn't a great deal to it if they have to block out certain parts of their preview.   I'm NOT saying that it isn't effective but why block out the technique??      I think it may be a very simple effective technique that doesn't really require a whole dvd to learn and train.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## MJS (Jul 28, 2008)

CatNap said:


> Yet how many styles out there really deal with reality fighting and enable students to deal with real life crisis situations? Most exist to pass down an art: it's rooted in history, has a story about a culture, about a people, the movements aren't always combat oriented in the way at Karv maga is and Russian styles military oriented. I've often wondered about it myself. Where do you turn for instruction geared towards hostage situations, knife and gun attacks and dirty fighting in general?
> 
> Laura


 
Many people, myself included, have the belief that if you really want to get a solid understanding of weapons, you need to look for a weapon based art.  If I want to learn how to grapple, I'm not going to join a TKD school, I'm going to join a BJJ or Judo school.  If I really want a solid understanding of the blade, I'm going to look at the FMAs, such as Arnis, Sayoc, Pekiti Tirsia, etc.  Kenpo, my base art, covers knife defense, and sure, there are some good techniques, however, by looking at a weapon based art, you get to see things in a different way.  

As I said earlier...the odds of us going up against a FMA master on the street probably won't happen, however, once you see the number of ways a knife can be used, you'll be even more prepared IMO, in the event someone does have knowledge on how to use a knife.


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## MJS (Jul 28, 2008)

thetruth said:


> Has anyone here had experience with the 'dog catcher'? It seems as though there isn't a great deal to it if they have to block out certain parts of their preview. I'm NOT saying that it isn't effective but why block out the technique?? I think it may be a very simple effective technique that doesn't really require a whole dvd to learn and train.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
Keep in mind that the DLO clips you're seeing on youtube are promo clips.  Its possible that by putting on the teaser clips, and blocking some parts out, it'll peak the curiosity of folks viewing and they'll buy the dvds.


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