# When a teacher can no longer teach certain techniques...



## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2007)

I've done it again.  My lower back, right at the L5 junction is highly inflamed and I'm having a real hard time moving around.  The culprit is the same.  Jump spinning kicks and really high falls.  I've been having a problem with these techniques for a long time and my doctor doesn't think I should do them.  I have a particular problem with the L5 junction in that it is partially fused to my sacrum and that makes it more suseptible to certain injuries.

I talked to him about just demoing these techniques and he gave me the go ahead as long as it didn't cause any problems.

On Thursday's class, I was working one of my senior students through the advanced requirements and I thought that everything was fine after demoing some of the jump spinning kicks and taking a couple of rough falls after teaching tomoenage.  Unfortunately, I woke up the next morning in a lot of pain and now I have some decisions to make.

I don't have to take the high hard falls because I can always make someone else do that, but someone needs to be able to show the students what one of these jump spinning kicks look like.  I don't know if I can do it anymore and I'm not sure what to do.

It wouldn't bother me much if I just stopped teaching them, but other Tangsoodoin expect it.  What can I do?


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## JWLuiza (Sep 1, 2007)

Gymnastics coaches teach moves without being able to do them, they use verbal descriptions.  If you can still do a spin kick, it's not much of a step to a jump spin kick.

Good luck!  Check out the info: re Bassai translation when you get a chance!


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## Blotan Hunka (Sep 1, 2007)

Living a long functional life and being around for your family trumps anything MA related in my book. Id say its time to re-evaluate what's most important to you and make the right adjustments.


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## terryl965 (Sep 1, 2007)

Upnorth sometimes we need to change are teaching habits and you my friend may need to do more talking your student though than actually doing the techniques for a while. Good luck and hope it gets better.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Living a long functional life and being around for your family trumps anything MA related in my book. Id say its time to re-evaluate what's most important to you and make the right adjustments.


 
This is weighing heavily on my mind, because I agree.  My only problem is one that I think stems mainly from pride.  I don't like to give in.  I don't like to admit that I can't do certain things...


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## Blotan Hunka (Sep 1, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> This is weighing heavily on my mind, because I agree. My only problem is one that I think stems mainly from pride. I don't like to give in. I don't like to admit that I can't do certain things...


 
Then the decision is easy. (easy for me to say, at least  )
Never listen to your pride/ego when it comes to your health or the welfare of others.


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## theletch1 (Sep 1, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Then the decision is easy. (easy for me to say, at least  )
> Never listen to your pride/ego when it comes to your health or the welfare of others.


You sound just like my wife afte my back injury.  JW had an excellent point here.  Being able to explain the technique well and having the students fine tune as you go is better than having the students see you take an injury trying to do a technique that you shouldn't be doing.  My instructors knees give him a fit now and then and he has trouble with suwari-waza (techniques from seiza) so he'll have a senior student that's familiar with the techniques demo them.  Same with my back.  I fell off a roof and compressed my S2 pretty badly.  There are days that I have to have someone else demo the technique.  When they aren't around I just don't teach that tech that day or I'll talk them through it with comparisons to other, similar techs.


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## jks9199 (Sep 1, 2007)

Can you use one of your senior students to demonstrate the techniques you can't do yourself?  Or start coaching one up?  There's no need for you to personally teach and demo all the basics if you've got senior students who can give the junior students enough that you can then correct it.


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## agemechanic03 (Sep 1, 2007)

Ouch!! Sorry to here that UpNorth. I know how serious you take your TSD training. But I agree with Blotan. What is more important? Try and talk teach it to your students. If you have to, try and get a vid of someone doing the kick or fall and stand there by your students and have them take it really slow and just go thru the motion first. Hope u get better soon!!


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## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2007)

Well, its official, I got back from the doctor, its sprained.  The good news is that it's not as bad as I thought.  I should be good to practice in a few days if I take it easy now.  

I'm wondering if I can take some supplements to build up the joint so that it doesn't bother me so much.  Does anyone have any experience with this?

As far as the particular techniques that are giving me problems, I do have some video of the techniques in question.  I took these about a year ago because I felt that I needed to get them recorded in case I ever came to the point where I couldn't do them.  

Do you think these could be used?  Five years ago, they looked A LOT better...but I that was before my back really started to bother me.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Can you use one of your senior students to demonstrate the techniques you can't do yourself? Or start coaching one up? There's no need for you to personally teach and demo all the basics if you've got senior students who can give the junior students enough that you can then correct it.


 
The problem is that I'm trying to teach my senior students how to do them.  I'm not sure how to do it yet without showing them myself.  It'll take some rethinking, methinks...


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## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> Then the decision is easy. (easy for me to say, at least  )
> Never listen to your pride/ego when it comes to your health or the welfare of others.


 
Easy enough, it would seem, but I'm only 31.  I'm young, healthy, and strong except for this, I feel like its my Achilles Heel.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 1, 2007)

Really it is not a problem teaching jumping kicks and not showing it.  I can teach a flying side kick or jumping kick without ever actually performing it if I want to.  It just requires a little more explaining of the process.  In IRT *we only learn* jumping & spinning kicks to be able to counter them and to know how the process works.  You can do it UpNorthKyosa just break the process of doing it down and then put it back together as a whole. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





As for your own practice it may be time to eliminate the certain techniques that bother your back from your own individual repertoire.


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## Kacey (Sep 1, 2007)

The thing to remember is that you're teaching something you've done - even if you can't do it now.  If you had never been able to do jump spinning kicks and were trying to teach them without a demonstration, that would be one thing (and I know people who've tried) - but you know how they look and how they feel, so from there, you should be able to break them down into pieces small enough for you to demonstrate without hurting yourself, while still being able to teach your students until you have another one who can demonstrate for you.

Getting old enough that old injuries accumulate and don't heal like they used to when you were younger sucks... but it's _way_ better than the alternative!


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## aplonis (Sep 1, 2007)

You can turn this into a good thing of a different kind. I've never been much for any of those really flash arial techniques myself, especially now at almost 52 and with knees no longer what they were. That they are most cool to watch I'll be the first to admit. But anyplace they can be applied is a more than equal opportunity for grounded techniques that pose less potential risk of injury and less opportunity for a counter.

Consider, perhaps, during your recovery period focusing on counters for those arial techniques. Most people try to block or back away. Teach them what happens when the oppoment rushes well inside that circle, striking upward or capturing said spinning leg at the knee while you are still airborne. 

So many schools focus so strictly on tournament-rules sparring that their students never expect or guard well against these counters. Two of the schools I have trained at never even taught what those rules are. Those students tended to get disqualified, when they'd forget and do elsewhere what they were taught in their own schools. But they were doutless safer walking dark streets at night, surely.

Now as you are unable to demonstrate the high stuff, this would seem your opportunity to focus strongly on their counters. It will be showing how to press on even while injured. That too will be very inspiring. Your students won't be suffering in the least for it. Not at all. The only downside is that should they all become adept at the in-rush counter to arial techniques, they may not be so enamoured of them as previously.


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## exile (Sep 1, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In IRT *WE ONLY LEARN jumping & spinning kicks to be able to counter them and to know how the process works.*





aplonis said:


> *But anyplace [spinning/jumping kicks] can be applied is a more than equal opportunity for grounded techniques that pose less potential risk of injury and less opportunity for a counter.*
> 
> Consider, perhaps, during your recovery period focusing on counters for those arial techniques. Most people try to block or back away. Teach them what happens when the oppoment rushes well inside that circle, striking upward or capturing said spinning leg at the knee while you are still airborne.
> 
> ...Now as you are unable to demonstrate the high stuff, this would seem your opportunity to focus strongly on their counters. It will be showing how to press on even while injured. That too will be very inspiring. Your students won't be suffering in the least for it. Not at all. The only downside is that should they all become adept at the in-rush counter to arial techniques, they may not be so enamoured of them as previously.



Lots of good advice here, UpN, and I especially like these two posts. The thing is really a matter of street effectiveness; from what I know of your training philosophy, your take on KMA training in terms of personal defense is right in line with what I've bolded in Brian's and Aplonis' replies. What might be useful is to have your students study some well chosen videos of the jump/spin techs that have been a problem for you, and then demo the counters in detail in your dojang; that way, they'll know exactly what the techs are they're responding too, and will learn to handle them (though it's unlikely that any street attacker would use these techs in the first place). Doing things that way would also have the benefit of emphasizing to your students that the kicks aren't things you want to add to your repertoire unless you're interested in pursuing a primarily competitive career; Aplonis' comment in bold above really rings true here.

The thing is, even if you're going to recover faster than you were afraid you would, this whole episode has made it clear that these kicks are no good for your back. Somewhere along the line you're going to need to stop doing them, eh? As your mechanic (or dentist) might say, you can pay me now, or you can pay me later. At least if you prune them from your repertoire during the course of the next year, it won't (at 31!) be a case of encroaching old age, eh? :wink1:


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## kidswarrior (Sep 1, 2007)

exile said:


> The thing is, even if you're going to recover faster than you were afraid you would, this whole episode has made it clear that these kicks are no good for your back. *Somewhere along the line you're going to need to stop doing them, eh?* As your mechanic (or dentist) might say, you can pay me now, or you can pay me later. At least if you prune them from your repertoire during the course of the next year, it won't (at 31!) be a case of encroaching old age, eh? :wink1:


What exile said.

I'll just throw in my belief that real, deep-seated wisdom begins when we first realize--really know--we're not going to live forever. So if you get that at 31, well, you're way ahead of me! 

BTW, how many pro football players might think the same thing--I'm only 31, or 28, or 25. Yet, they can't do what they once did. No disgrace in that. :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks everyone, you've given me lots to think about.  Now, I'll do what I can to heal this bad boy and get back to work...​


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## Lynne (Sep 2, 2007)

That would be a bit depressing.  But a physical problem won't stop you being a great teacher.  You have an inherent gift, upnorth, and a physical problem can't take that away.


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## kaizasosei (Sep 2, 2007)

i suggest you practice seiza until your back is in better shape.


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## exile (Sep 2, 2007)

Lynne said:


> That would be a bit depressing.  But a physical problem won't stop you being a great teacher.  You have an inherent gift, upnorth, and a physical problem can't take that away.



I second that heartily, Lynne.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 2, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> i suggest you practice seiza until your back is in better shape.


 
How does this help?  I actually sit in seiza more often now days because it keeps everything in line.  Especially when my back hurts.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 2, 2007)

From the vids you posted, it doesn't look like you'd be having to explain jump kicks that are all that different from their standing variants, so I echo JWLuiza. Until you can do them without hurting yourself, it's best not to do them at all. My instructor often just breaks down the move into parts, cutting out the jump and instead showing the more important aspects of how the body has to move. Never hurt my training any. 

Only thing that hurts my training, actually, is my own physical limitation. My flat feet mean my knees aren't in perfect shape, so I have to be careful not to overdo it, even at 21. I love jump spinning kicks, but I don't want to need to use a walker at age 30.

Tang Soo!


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> From the vids you posted, it doesn't look like you'd be having to explain jump kicks that are all that different from their standing variants, so I echo JWLuiza. Until you can do them without hurting yourself, it's best not to do them at all. My instructor often just breaks down the move into parts, cutting out the jump and instead showing the more important aspects of how the body has to move. Never hurt my training any.
> 
> Only thing that hurts my training, actually, is my own physical limitation. My flat feet mean my knees aren't in perfect shape, so I have to be careful not to overdo it, even at 21. I love jump spinning kicks, but I don't want to need to use a walker at age 30.
> 
> Tang Soo!


 
Interesting point, JT.  I wonder how common it is for these techniques to cause physical problems?  Perhaps only a very few people can continue doing them for years and years and years?  Thus, it makes me wonder if the risk of practicing them is worth the benefits?  What says everybody?


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 3, 2007)

This may not be helpful but my first thought was, if a technique requires a high degree of flexibility or strength, perhaps it's not something that should be emphasized in the curriculum.   
My background is tradition-based Jujutsu.  My sensei often said that a technique that you had to warm-up to perform or that you had to wear Chuck Norris Stretch-Kickin' Jeans for wasn't good for self defense.  I'm about to turn 50 and I'm able to do every technique of our kihon waza.  Truthfully, I don't have the strength or flexibility I did when I learned them as a teenager, but the curriculum doesn't include anything that a middle-aged person in decent shape shouldn't be able to do.
If you're practicing techniques that cause injury in you, why teach them to someone else.
I've never studied karate, tsd, tkd or kung  fu so I'm woefully ignorant of what is considered basic knowledge in any of those percussion arts.  If my observation comes across as ignorant or simpleminded, blame my lack of experience.


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## exile (Sep 3, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Interesting point, JT.  I wonder how common it is for these techniques to cause physical problems?  Perhaps only a very few people can continue doing them for years and years and years?  Thus, it makes me wonder if the risk of practicing them is worth the benefits?  What says everybody?



I don't want this to be taken as flippant or facetious, because I'm actually quite serious about it: fairly often, when I'm thinking about something involving some aspect of MA activity, I ask myself, what would Anko Itosu or Bushi Matsumura do, or say, or think here? In a way, they're still our guides... and I very strongly suspect that neither of them would continue to practice techs which were pretty clearly going to lead, or at least contribute in a major way, to physical incapacitation; as JT says, do you really want to set yourself up for a walker within 10 years?_ESPECIALLY_ given the lack of a major self-defense payoff, something which I think would have been of paramount importance to the Okinawan Founders. In your situation, I'd take their ghostly advice, and channel your resources into techs with bigger CQ/SD payoffs and way smaller wear-and-tear on your irreplaceable spinal column.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 3, 2007)

John,
As Clint Eastwood once said; 
A man has to know his limitations!!!

I have been dealing with L-4, L-5 and S-1 issues for many years now, and the bottom line is; if I want to wake up each morning in such condition that allows me to function normally throughout the day there are certain techniques that I simply dont perform anymore.

Ahnesu Pahkoro Chagi is among the most damaging for me. I love doing them, and I do them very effectively. If I hit you with one, it is all over for you. The problem at this stage in my training life is that, I will be laid out in the hospital bed next to yours as a result of the trauma that my lower back will experience. In short, there are many techniques that I can administer that will be equally successful in taking down my opponent. I have to be smart enough to choose a technique that will not take me down with the opponent.

We have witnessed many of our seniors going through hip and knee replacements as well as back fusions and other assorted surgeries. If the techniques have damaging effects that have caused many great instructors to fall apart in the later years, we should take a lesson from those who came before us. If a given technique proves to be damaging over long term usage, maybe it should be taken out of the program. Why continue to teach a technique that may not be safe in the long run? Is tradition that important to us?

Grandmaster Willie Adams is one of my Isshinryu instructors here in Detroit. GM Adams has always stated that; you should never throw a kick that you would not throw confidently while standing on a sheet of ice. He also states that; if you want to kick a man in the head, first, kick in the knee (break his knee). When he falls to the ground, kick him in the head.

To answer your original question; if doing a specific technique causes you damage, stop doing it right away. As you age, your training has to change to accommodate your bodies ability to move, and respect your body for that which it can no longer do without issues.

I have a student that is flexible and can perform any kick as well as H.C. Hwang. When I need to demonstrate kicks that my back frowns on, I have my student demonstrate it for me. The rest of the class has the benefit of seeing it done correctly, and they understand that I am not interested in spending a week in bed on pain meds, muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs


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## kidswarrior (Sep 3, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> This may not be helpful but my first thought was, if a technique requires a high degree of flexibility or strength, perhaps it's not something that should be emphasized in the curriculum....My sensei often said that *a technique that you had to warm-up to perform* or that you had to wear Chuck Norris Stretch-Kickin' Jeans for *wasn't good for self defense*.


Very sound advice--cause if it really happens, we're _not _going to get to warm up. 



			
				exile said:
			
		

> I very strongly suspect that neither (Anko Itosu or Bushi Matsumura) would continue to practice techs which were pretty clearly going to lead, or at least contribute in a major way, to physical incapacitation


Pretty strong evidence, exile. :asian:



			
				Master Jay S. Penfil said:
			
		

> We have witnessed many of our seniors going through hip and knee replacements as well as back fusions and other assorted surgeries. If the techniques have damaging effects that have caused many great instructors to fall apart in the later years, we should take a lesson from those who came before us. If a given technique proves to be damaging over long term usage, maybe it should be taken out of the program. *Why continue to teach a technique that may not be safe in the long run?*


Exactly.


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## jks9199 (Sep 3, 2007)

I have to wonder...

Is there something missing in how many of us train in the US?  Why are so many senior martial artists virtual cripples because of knee, back, or other injuries?  Why would people who developed the various martial arts incorporate techniques that do so much damage to the user that they won't last a full life -- or did we miss something in the conditioning and body preparation?

Over the last 10 years or so, our chief instructor in my system has greatly emphasized the healing and health aspect of our art, teaching a yoga system and other approaches designed to improve the general health and condition of our students and to remedy the damage done in hard training.  Maybe this is something that more of us should be doing...


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 3, 2007)

Addendum to my comments: I didn't say I'd stop practicing them, just said I'd be smart about using them. The body's a lot hardier than most folk would be willing to believe, used properly. It's when you _overdo_ it that you get hurt. Anything done with wisdom and moderation can be beneficial, and vice versa.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> I have been dealing with L-4, L-5 and S-1 issues for many years now, and the bottom line is; if I want to wake up each morning in such condition that allows me to function normally throughout the day there are certain techniques that I simply dont perform anymore.
> 
> Ahnesu Pahkoro Chagi is among the most damaging for me. I love doing them, and I do them very effectively. If I hit you with one, it is all over for you. The problem at this stage in my training life is that, I will be laid out in the hospital bed next to yours as a result of the trauma that my lower back will experience. In short, there are many techniques that I can administer that will be equally successful in taking down my opponent. I have to be smart enough to choose a technique that will not take me down with the opponent.




Master Penfil, when did problems with inside outside kick start?  I, thankfully can perform this and the spinning variety with no problems at this moment, but it sounds like we may have similar back issues...
 



Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> We have witnessed many of our seniors going through hip and knee replacements as well as back fusions and other assorted surgeries. If the techniques have damaging effects that have caused many great instructors to fall apart in the later years, we should take a lesson from those who came before us. If a given technique proves to be damaging over long term usage, maybe it should be taken out of the program. Why continue to teach a technique that may not be safe in the long run? Is tradition that important to us?


 
Interesting questions and interesting points.  I've often thought along these lines, but the only reason I carried certain things forward was because of tradition.  Perhaps, considering the history of these techniques, the tradition isn't that important.




Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Grandmaster Willie Adams is one of my Isshinryu instructors here in Detroit. GM Adams has always stated that; you should never throw a kick that you would not throw confidently while standing on a sheet of ice. He also states that; if you want to kick a man in the head, first, kick in the knee (break his knee). When he falls to the ground, kick him in the head.




Very pragmatic.  Originally, all of the forms focused on low kicks that were formed after sweeps, throws or they kicked to the knees as was suggested.  Some of the forms had higher kicks, but they were very few and far between.  And none of them ever had techniques like I have been trying to teach...




Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> To answer your original question; if doing a specific technique causes you damage, stop doing it right away. As you age, your training has to change to accommodate your bodies ability to move, and respect your body for that which it can no longer do without issues.





Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> I have a student that is flexible and can perform any kick as well as H.C. Hwang. When I need to demonstrate kicks that my back frowns on, I have my student demonstrate it for me. The rest of the class has the benefit of seeing it done correctly, and they understand that I am not interested in spending a week in bed on pain meds, muscle relaxers and anti-inflammatory drugs


 
I am not going to perform these techniques anymore.  I just can't.  I don't want to laid up like this so that it gets worse and worse.  

Further, having these kicks in my curriculum has always put me in a very sticky philosophical situation.  I wanted to bring all of our training and all of our focus back to the forms.  These techniques obviously do not fit that mold.  The only reason I kept some of these things techniques is so that we at least had something in common with other Tangsoodoin.  Now I'm thinking if it wouldn't be better philosophically and health wise to just drop them altogether.  

Perhaps we can be an example of a new way of doing tangsoodo?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> This may not be helpful but my first thought was, if a technique requires a high degree of flexibility or strength, perhaps it's not something that should be emphasized in the curriculum.
> My background is tradition-based Jujutsu. My sensei often said that a technique that you had to warm-up to perform or that you had to wear Chuck Norris Stretch-Kickin' Jeans for wasn't good for self defense. I'm about to turn 50 and I'm able to do every technique of our kihon waza. Truthfully, I don't have the strength or flexibility I did when I learned them as a teenager, but the curriculum doesn't include anything that a middle-aged person in decent shape shouldn't be able to do.
> 
> If you're practicing techniques that cause injury in you, why teach them to someone else.
> ...


 
Mark, how well do you do with the really high falls?  Lets say someone really cranked you up high with tomoenage so that you basically are doing a no hand sutemi in the air and landing pretty flat.  

One of my students is a couple inches taller then me but had REALLY long legs so that when he throws me, even when he takes it easy, I can't get my hands on the ground to do a decent roll.  I pretty much always hit pretty hard...


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## Makalakumu (Sep 3, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I have to wonder...
> 
> Is there something missing in how many of us train in the US? Why are so many senior martial artists virtual cripples because of knee, back, or other injuries? Why would people who developed the various martial arts incorporate techniques that do so much damage to the user that they won't last a full life -- or did we miss something in the conditioning and body preparation?
> 
> Over the last 10 years or so, our chief instructor in my system has greatly emphasized the healing and health aspect of our art, teaching a yoga system and other approaches designed to improve the general health and condition of our students and to remedy the damage done in hard training. Maybe this is something that more of us should be doing...


 
Interesting points.  How did it get like this?  Is it because of the sport focus?  I wonder if gymnasts and certain martial artists share many of the same issues?

The biggest difference, however, is that mosts gymnasts quit at a certain time.  Martial artists tend to stick with it far longer, probably compounding the damage.


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 3, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Mark, how well do you do with the really high falls?  Lets say someone really cranked you up high with tomoenage so that you basically are doing a no hand sutemi in the air and landing pretty flat.
> 
> One of my students is a couple inches taller then me but had REALLY long legs so that when he throws me, even when he takes it easy, I can't get my hands on the ground to do a decent roll.  I pretty much always hit pretty hard...



Thanks to a Sensei who required everyone to have good ukemi, I can still take a decent fall.  To be honest, taking the falls is the easy part, someone else is doing all the work.  All I have to do is relax and know when to breathe.  For what it's worth, I'm 6'4" and 220lbs.  Just about any fall I take is a high fall.


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## Lynne (Sep 6, 2007)

The owner of our school, Master R, had knee surgery in September of last year.  Our school is three floors; we have a weight room below and two dojangs above.  Master R was going up and down the steps on crutches, back and forth, here and there.  I don't think he could stand to sit down for a minute.  One of his senior instructors did take over the classes for awhile.  It wasn't long before Master R was out on the floor, on crutches, instructing.  He was going from student-to-student, correcting their legs for wallkicks, correcting their forms, their combinations, whatever.  

He was off of the crutches in a few months and is back to teaching as usual. He's a fortunate man.

However, if he were to be on crutches and not fable to ully demonstrate, I'm not sure it would make much difference to the student.  His energy is very motivating.  I wish he could teach all of our classes.

I'm sure as an instructor, though, he did feel like something was missing when he couldn't be on the floor demonstrating.  I'm just saying that having him there on the floor is one of the greatest motivators because of his energy/teaching ability.


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 6, 2007)

Lynne said:


> The owner of our school, Master R, had knee surgery in September of last year.  Our school is three floors; we have a weight room below and two dojangs above.  Master R was going up and down the steps on crutches, back and forth, here and there.  I don't think he could stand to sit down for a minute.  One of his senior instructors did take over the classes for awhile.  It wasn't long before Master R was out on the floor, on crutches, instructing.  He was going from student-to-student, correcting their legs for wallkicks, correcting their forms, their combinations, whatever.
> 
> He was off of the crutches in a few months and is back to teaching as usual. He's a fortunate man.
> 
> ...



I understand his inability to stay away.  Over the years, whenever I've had an injury or illness eat into my training or teaching time, it was incredibly difficult to stay off the mat.  Invariably, I'd find myself hobbling out on crutches or with a cane to offer corrections or just to challenge the current young buck who needed to be beat on by a crippled old man.


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## Lynne (Sep 6, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> I understand his inability to stay away. Over the years, whenever I've had an injury or illness eat into my training or teaching time, it was incredibly difficult to stay off the mat. Invariably, I'd find myself hobbling out on crutches or with a cane to offer corrections or just to challenge the current young buck who needed to be beat on by a crippled old man.


A bamboo cane???!


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 6, 2007)

Lynne said:


> A bamboo cane???!



Actually, I use an oak cane but I put the cane or crutches aside if I'm going to play.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2007)

I wanted to make a couple short comments, but they have sort of already been hit upon by others here, so I guess I'll just reinforce some things that have been said.

If a technique has an inherent high-risk factor of injury, maybe it should be eliminated from the curriculum altogether.  What good is it, if you risk incapacitating yourself every time you do it?  And just because you could do it when you were a teenager is no reason to keep doing it once it becomes clear to you that this risk is present and is real.  And do your students a favor by eliminating these things, explaining to them WHY you are doing so, and don't hand that risk off to them.  Learn from YOUR mistakes, rather than perpetuate risky techniques just because they were handed down to you.  Make your own curriculum smarter than it was.


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## kidswarrior (Sep 6, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> Make your own curriculum smarter than it was.


This is classic, FC. May I use it? 

BTW, the ghost in the machine tells me it's too soon to rep you again as I wanted to. ;(


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Interesting point, JT. I wonder how common it is for these techniques to cause physical problems? Perhaps only a very few people can continue doing them for years and years and years? Thus, it makes me wonder if the risk of practicing them is worth the benefits? What says everybody?


 

This is part of the reason I don't practice capoeira anymore.  I still play a bit once in a while, but I don't practice or train.

I used to be able to do some pretty interesting acrobatics in capoeira, but i've gotten rusty and can't anymore.  Not any of the really radical stuff, but some pretty cool stuff, nonetheless.  

I never really got injured doing this.  I just eventually drifted away from it into other things.  But when I visit the school, I see SO MANY PEOPLE, especially the senior people who have been there for years, and they all have injured shoulders, or backs, or knees, or ankles, or hips, or elbows, or necks, or whatever.  And I believe it is in part the very techs that they practice, as well as perhaps some training habits that I think aren't the best.  But this hammers into my head that I really dodged a bullet.  I drifted away before any obvious damage had been done.

I had been one of the senior students during my time.  I was addicted and trained like a fiend.  If I was still doing that now, perhaps I would be one of those people hobbling around, and I'm only 36.  While I can't fly like the teenagers, I still consider that young!

I look at it with a really critical eye.  Those techs that are really mostly showboating and aren't grounded in really useful application are things I don't want to spend time on.  They don't really give you any meaningful skills beyond showboating, and they can hurt you.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> This is classic, FC. May I use it?


 
of course!



> BTW, the ghost in the machine tells me it's too soon to rep you again as I wanted to. ;(


 
ditto!


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## Flying Crane (Sep 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Further, having these kicks in my curriculum has always put me in a very sticky philosophical situation. I wanted to bring all of our training and all of our focus back to the forms. These techniques obviously do not fit that mold. The only reason I kept some of these things techniques is so that we at least had something in common with other Tangsoodoin. Now I'm thinking if it wouldn't be better philosophically and health wise to just drop them altogether.
> 
> Perhaps we can be an example of a new way of doing tangsoodo?


 
Ah, well, now you might be in danger of heresy!!


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 6, 2007)

We tend to view the world through our own particular prism.  If someone is middle-aged and a martial artist with injuries,the assumption is probably going to be that martial arts are too rough for those of us of a "certain age".  But how many 50 year olds do you see burning up the basketball courts against teens or hobbling on a soccer field to challenge the future Beckhams?   As a group, we probably hold up better than average.

 Most physical activities are going to produce wear and tear on the body. I've got a friend who belongs to a couple of bowling leagues and thanks to 30 plus years of tossing that ball down the lane (and probably poor form) has terrible elbow pain.  It doesn't stop him from hitting the lanes every other night but he knows it contributes to his injury.

Obviously, we want to do whatever we can to lessen injury and wear and tear but with a little common sense and a lot of patience, we can all be taking up dojo/dojang/kwoon space when we're little old men & ladies.  My Sensei passed away at 87 and trained 4 days a week until he was 85.  He only stopped then because of cancer and continued to train his mind until the very end.  That's the role model I want to follow.


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## Kacey (Sep 6, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> We tend to view the world through our own particular prism.  If someone is middle-aged and a martial artist with injuries,the assumption is probably going to be that martial arts are too rough for those of us of a "certain age".  But how many 50 year olds do you see burning up the basketball courts against teens or hobbling on a soccer field to challenge the future Beckhams?   As a group, we probably hold up better than average.



This is, quite probably, true - I know that many of my friends who are involved in other, non-MA sports tend to hurt themselves more than the MA'ists I know - and it's because the non-Ma'ists generally don't stretch or warm up; they just jump right in, just as they did when they were younger and more resilient... and then when they hurt themselves, they don't treat it with the full RICE (Rest, Ice, Compression, Elevation), just anti-inflammatories; no time off... just right back in.  Martial artists, as a group, are more aware of the need and method to properly treat injuries (even if most of them come back too soon - I know I do!) than are many other amateur athletes.



MarkBarlow said:


> Most physical activities are going to produce wear and tear on the body. I've got a friend who belongs to a couple of bowling leagues and thanks to 30 plus years of tossing that ball down the lane (and probably poor form) has terrible elbow pain.  It doesn't stop him from hitting the lanes every other night but he knows it contributes to his injury.



True... see above for my take on why that is.



MarkBarlow said:


> Obviously, we want to do whatever we can to lessen injury and wear and tear but with a little common sense and a lot of patience, we can all be taking up dojo/dojang/kwoon space when we're little old men & ladies.  My Sensei passed away at 87 and trained 4 days a week until he was 85.  He only stopped then because of cancer and continued to train his mind until the very end.  That's the role model I want to follow.



Very true - and a great point!

I also think that many martial artists are in their MA for the long haul, and are willing to make the modifications necessary to train smarter instead of harder as they get older and more prone to injury, so they can continue throughout their lives - something few amateur athletes are taught, as many adult sports activities (from bowling to baseball) involves a group of untrained but enthusiastic people who don't have a coach or other type of instructor to teach them these things - some do, certainly, but I don't think it's as wide-spread as knowledge of injury prevention and treatment, and modification for injury/inability is in the MA's.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 6, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> If a technique has an inherent high-risk factor of injury, maybe it should be eliminated from the curriculum altogether.  What good is it, if you risk incapacitating yourself every time you do it?



Indeed. Even so, for all the basic TSD kicks, and even for most of the more advanced ones, there's not the kind of risk you seem to be suggesting, as long as the technique is done correctly. That's why it's best to start learning at a young age; you learn to do it correctly during the years when you'll recover more quickly, and when you're older you won't have to risk as much. 

The body is an amazing machine; never forget that. Like someone else pointed out, there's inherent risk of injury in _any_ physical activity, especially when that activity is repeated (repetitive stress injuries, as they call them), but it's been proven that if you live an active life, you live longer and better. So are you going to be afraid to see what your body can do, or are you going to use its potential? That is what you must ask yourself.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 6, 2007)

I think I am going to an update on our requirement sheets.  I've been doing a little reading around and it seems that the injuries caused by these kicks are very commonplace.  Further, they really do seem to because some more negative long term health effects when compared to other techniques.  All we have to really do is look at our seniors.  They either do not practice these techniques anymore or they have had some pretty major surgeries to correct long term damage.  I don't want to do that to people...


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## terryl965 (Sep 6, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> I think I am going to an update on our requirement sheets. I've been doing a little reading around and it seems that the injuries caused by these kicks are very commonplace. Further, they really do seem to because some more negative long term health effects when compared to other techniques. All we have to really do is look at our seniors. They either do not practice these techniques anymore or they have had some pretty major surgeries to correct long term damage. I don't want to do that to people...


 

 This maybe the wises move by you upnorth, I hope everything turns out alright.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 6, 2007)

There is an old saying that goes;
If you always do what you always did, youll always get what you always got.

If you want to know what your future level of health and physical condition will be based on your training regiment, look at those who have been doing what you are doing now for the past 30+ years. If you are training with seniors who have suffered training related injuries, and you are now, based on tradition, doing the same exercises that they did, what can you expect to happen to you in years to come?

Ask yourself; what is the definition of insanity?
Most people will tell you that the definition of insanity is; doing the same thing over and over again the same way, but expecting different results.

If you are involved with seniors who have suffered injuries by executing techniques in a fashion that is not safe to do, and they are teaching you to do them the same way, and they are telling you that it is O.K. for you to do it this way because you are young and your body will allow you to, take a clue. It isnt that your body is still young, and they had to change because theirs is old. It is because often times, the injuries that we have grown up with are the kind that happen over time and get progressively worse.

I look at many of the older Chinese practitioners. Do you know what I dont see when I watch them training? I dont see the injuries that are so damaging in many Korean and Japanese systems. I have never seen a Chinese martial artist that has had to go through a hip or knee replacement. I have never seen a Chinese practitioner with lower back issues.

Over the years I have changed the way I train and teach my students to be more user friendly and health smart. If you think that a specific technique has been injurious to you, dont teach it to your students. 

Just because a grandmaster incorporated a technique 50+ years ago in his system doesnt mean that he had the knowledge of physiology and kinesiology to make that decision with the full understanding of the long-term ramifications of the techniques use in his system.

Just some thought to share


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 6, 2007)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> .
> I look at many of the older Chinese practitioners. Do you know what I dont see when I watch them training? I dont see the injuries that are so damaging in many Korean and Japanese systems. I have never seen a Chinese martial artist that has had to go through a hip or knee replacement. I have never seen a Chinese practitioner with lower back issues.



That's interesting, considering many of the fancy high kicks taught in many styles of wushu.


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## JWLuiza (Sep 6, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> That's interesting, considering many of the fancy high kicks taught in many styles of wushu.



Wushu is the flash.  I don't think Master Penfil was talking about them   Wushu is like TKD the government created it as a national sport.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 6, 2007)

Absolutely.  Wushu is gymnastics with weapons.  It's a MA, but its definitely not a combative MA.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 6, 2007)

JWLuiza said:


> Wushu is the flash.  I don't think Master Penfil was talking about them   Wushu is like TKD the government created it as a national sport.



You can't group it like that; wushu is the generic Chinese term for martial arts, not a single martial art. A synonym is our "kung fu," which again is not a single martial art but a broad term covering several distinct styles.


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 6, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> You can't group it like that; wushu is the generic Chinese term for martial arts, not a single martial art. A synonym is our "kung fu," which again is not a single martial art but a broad term covering several distinct styles.



Technically, you're right but since the 1970s, most martial artists equate the term wushu with the Chinese government endorsed and sponsored system.  By anyone's definition, the wushu referred to earlier is more flash than substance.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 7, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> Technically, you're right but since the 1970s, most martial artists equate the term wushu with the Chinese government endorsed and sponsored system.  By anyone's definition, the wushu referred to earlier is more flash than substance.



No doubt. But my original point was that Chinese styles still have a penchant for fancy footwork, so it's odd that you don't see them injured more often.


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 7, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> No doubt. But my original point was that Chinese styles still have a penchant for fancy footwork, so it's odd that you don't see them injured more often.



How many older (40+) Chinese folks do you see doing the backflips and acrobatic kicks so popular in demos?  What may be good for the gosling ain't necessarily good for the goose or gander.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Sep 7, 2007)

JT,
When we talk about the fancy kicking techniques of "Wushu", note that the execution of the kicking techniques of the Wushu (and other Chinese systems) use very different hip rotation and body movement.

Another consideration that must be taken into account, and has been proven via medical/scientific research is that the scelital structure of the Asian's differs greatly from that of us westerner's. What may be safe for them to do may not be safe for us. This doesn't mean that there aren't westerners that have natural flexability similar the that of our Asian counterparts, but for the majority of us, we simply don't have the same genetics to support such techniques (long-term).


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Absolutely. Wushu is gymnastics with weapons. It's a MA, but its definitely not a combative MA.


 

Correct.  It is a performance and competition art based on traditional Chinese martial arts.  It is no longer a legitimate fighting art.  

For the sake of performance and competition, Modern Wushu incorporates some very extreme acrobatics and such.  And those athletes are showing much more frequent injuries. 

My Sifu, who is connected to the Modern Wushu world, as well as traditional Chinese fighting arts, says that in the Beijing Wushu Team, which is the world's premier team, the athletes all have wrapped joints and are always limping around.  20 years ago that was not the case.  In recent years they have been really pushing the envelope in taking movements further to the extreme.  And the results are showing up with much greater frequency of injury.  They are just doing stuff that makes no sense and has a very high potential for injury.  I personally don't understand why they do this, and when I began training with my sifu, I made it clear that I was only interested in learning traditional martial arts, and I had no interest at all in Modern Wushu.  He has always respected my desire.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> You can't group it like that; wushu is the generic Chinese term for martial arts, not a single martial art. A synonym is our "kung fu," which again is not a single martial art but a broad term covering several distinct styles.


 
This is true, but more often than not, when someone refers to "wushu", they really mean "Modern Wushu", which is the performance and competition art created by the Chinese governement beginning in about the 1950s.  

Wushu can be used to refer to the traditional arts, but usually it is termed "traditional wushu" to differentiate from Modern Wushu.

Otherwise, "kung-fu" is more common, even tho it is a mis-translation.


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## theletch1 (Sep 7, 2007)

Ok, so if the wushu teams are taking heavier injuries earlier and earlier in their careers how will techniques be passed along to the next generation of artists?  Sooner or later the Wushu artists will no longer be able to perform the techniques they are attempting to teach and wind up in the same shape as Upnorthkyosa.  At that point something will have to be figured out to either A) teach the tech without demo-ing or B) simply stop teaching the technique at all.


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## MarkBarlow (Sep 7, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> And the results are showing up with much greater frequency of injury.  They are just doing stuff that makes no sense and has a very high potential for injury.  _*I personally don't understand why they do this*_, and when I began training with my sifu, I made it clear that I was only interested in learning traditional martial arts, and I had no interest at all in Modern Wushu.  He has always respected my desire.



I feel the same way.  It also amazes me to see parents allowing their daughters to compete in gymnastics under coaches who not only ignore serious injuries but insist on the girls maintaining an unhealthy weight that will adversely affect them for the rest of their lives.  I've shared space with gymnastic schools and it's not uncommon before a competition to hear the instructor chewing the girls out about being fat.  We're talking about girls as young as 12.  If you want to screw up a girl's self image, begin attacking their appearance early.  I can't think of anything better to damage a child.

It's been a few years ago and I can't remember where I read it but there was a study on football injuries.  Basically, the study found that around 10% of children playing football between the ages of 6 and 9 would be injured, 25% between 10 and 14, 40% in high school and close to 100% in college.  Can you imagine if we tried to convince the parents of our students that those percentages should be acceptable?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Ok, so if the wushu teams are taking heavier injuries earlier and earlier in their careers how will techniques be passed along to the next generation of artists? Sooner or later the Wushu artists will no longer be able to perform the techniques they are attempting to teach and wind up in the same shape as Upnorthkyosa. At that point something will have to be figured out to either A) teach the tech without demo-ing or B) simply stop teaching the technique at all.


 

The current coaches aren't doing these crazy movements either.  I think it's literally a group of old beaurocrats who sit in an office and dream up this insanity, then tell the coaches to make the athletes do it.  The coaches can't do it 'cause they are in their 50s and stuff, but they tell the atheletes to do it, and they get hurt along the way.

It's a source of national pride that the Beijing team is the best in the world, and they intend to keep it that way, so they keep pushing the limits each year.  It's their sport, and they write and re-write the rules as they see fit.

As long as there are a bunch of beaurocrats with a wild imagination, and a bunch of coaches willing to pressure the atheletes, this will continue.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> It's been a few years ago and I can't remember where I read it but there was a study on football injuries. Basically, the study found that around 10% of children playing football between the ages of 6 and 9 would be injured, 25% between 10 and 14, 40% in high school and close to 100% in college. Can you imagine if we tried to convince the parents of our students that those percentages should be acceptable?


 
I think it's often the parent who is either trying to relive his own glory days, or else wants his kid to make up for his own failures.  Sad, but sometimes that's my impression.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 7, 2007)

[comment retracted]


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## shesulsa (Sep 8, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> Ok, so if the wushu teams are taking heavier injuries earlier and earlier in their careers how will techniques be passed along to the next generation of artists?  Sooner or later the Wushu artists will no longer be able to perform the techniques they are attempting to teach and wind up in the same shape as Upnorthkyosa.  At that point something will have to be figured out to either A) teach the tech without demo-ing or B) simply stop teaching the technique at all.


I think it is going to depend on the teacher/instructor.  If you can't get into someone's head to explain the move to them, it's pointless.


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## GreenEyedDespereaux (Sep 27, 2007)

My sabahnim is getting older as well, and has delegated some of his classes (partcularly the children) to some of the black belts. It's perfect for me because a.) I'm in high school and need the money, b.) I want to maybe have my own school someday and need the experience, and c.) I love kids and work very well with them. Perhaps that's something you can consider.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 14, 2007)

> How does this help? I actually sit in seiza more often now days because it keeps everything in line. Especially when my back hurts.




hey!  i'm really sorry i didn't get back to answering the question...also sorry if i have left anything out because i didn't read all the posts.

i think seiza is a natural position...from being able to do seiza, one could move to do seiza with really straight back...then lean forward into a ball- do this whenever possible.  then it would be good to do the simple touching the toes stretch with straight legs- at first, gently of course-sitting down maybe better- keeping back straight- even 90 deg or more whatever, day by day certain alleviation.
the back is like walking on a tightrope- though most think is is a fourlanehighway because they don't experience any pinches or pain even if they overdo their limits.  -if you get completely flexible training first one side and then the other, i believe the back can become like a fourlane highway. then one would be really strong and have really powerful movements.  -  there is even study in japan called tangaku- the study of the seikatanden.

however, as quickly as the pain came, it can also leave when it comes to the back...knees and hips take much more time and dedication.

how does this help?  i think it fuses the body together in a uniform way so that there is no disproportionate distribution of stress. 
the difference betwee a flexible person and an unflexible person is great.-it is like completely different kinds of beings-physically and sometimes also psychologically.  weird but i believe it..
im no circusmonkey myself right now, actually, i have lots of stretching to still do to at least regain what i had 10 years ago.

j


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## kaizasosei (Oct 14, 2007)

i would even checkout habits of hand movements or flexibility of toes and habits of feet..


sorry. i have no desire to mold anyone in any certain shape or alter destiny, but i really believe this stuff is very therapeutic.

sorry for the double post

j


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## kaizasosei (Oct 16, 2007)

sorry but i don't think it has anything to do with race...all people are different no matter what country they are in.  all people can become flexible. this is easier when young.  also, it depends how the parents show the kids through ideas or by example.   
  when i was very young just starting school at the age of 5, i was really depressed for some time, because when we went to the assembly hall, i could not sit crosslegged so nicely as the other kids.  it was really frustrating for me. 

at seventeen i was seriously flexible.  
now at age 29, i can still do the lotus position on both sides in reversed way in a couple of different styles... but i got a little rusty in the last 10 years, i cannot do the splits that easily anymore also hamstrings feel really too tense. bad for circulation. my arms and shoulders are also unflexible.  that's why i do all kinds of stretches as much as i can taichistyle movements and sitting.  the key word that i stumbled on when i opened up the book about the tanden just to get one word out of it.  and just the word i got was 'geisteshaltung'-(book is in german)- gh could mean usually means attitude or the way you carry yourself or even, i would call it a frame of mind...but what i find cool is that geist means spirit or ghost. and haltung means posture. 

one must simply find one roots and then nourish them.

j


 still i am more flexible than most people.
:flame:

but silly really, the body has so many areas and tendons etc. -i definately plenty of work to do.
 then there is the subject of true elasticity which is the elasticity of the skin.


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## Lynne (Oct 25, 2007)

Master R had rotator cuff surgery and I don't think I've ever seen him on the floor so much!  He is a dynamo in that sling, I tell you


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## JT_the_Ninja (Oct 25, 2007)

One of my classmates, a middle-aged man who's about a year or two behind me in terms of promotions, has a wrist that, for a reason I can't recall just now, can't rotate very far, physically speaking. It's tough doing wrist grabs with him for that reason, because any type of joint lock I'd try on his wrist is going to be hampered by the fact that it just doesn't move like a normal wrist does.


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