# Do you train against a real fight? ..punches/kicks flying fast and furious?



## still learning (Oct 20, 2007)

Hello, Have you notice many martial arts classes teach self-defense for the ONE punch or One kick type of defense only!

than we counter...most of these are done at a very slow or unrealistic speed.  ...and most of these moves are told in advance..and we do them at slower speeds.

In the real world...these punches and kicks (any combintions) are coming fast, furious, and explosive!   Like in a real fighting?

After watching many fights,boxers, MMA, tournaments figthing, and street figthing? .....it seems no does the one step block and counter like in practice?

Is it just me here? ...or will those actully stuff we learn will work once a fight starts?  

Kempo training is famous for these one step attacks with counters that are mulitple hits,blocks type of defending back.

Yet in a real fight? ....one rarely or ever see someone fight back like that...even in Kempo tournaments? 

Is what we learning? ...will work in the real world? ...for all situtions?

Aloha  ( real fights never looks like a martial artists))


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## jks9199 (Oct 20, 2007)

One attack is the starting point.  Since lots of people can't defend well against a single strike, they don't need to worry about the second strike!

But there's more to it...  If you move on the first strike, defend and counter... in an ideal situation, their will be no second attack on you.

And NOTHING works everytime, for everything.  

But, you're right on one point.  A real fight is not the same as sparring.


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## MJS (Oct 20, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Have you notice many martial arts classes teach self-defense for the ONE punch or One kick type of defense only!
> 
> than we counter...most of these are done at a very slow or unrealistic speed. ...and most of these moves are told in advance..and we do them at slower speeds.
> 
> ...


 
When learning the preset defenses against an attack, they're done in the 'Ideal' phase.  Every technique has an ideal phase.  This is the starting point.  Eventually, the student needs to move to the 'What If or Even If' phase.  That is the part where things do not go as planned.  The opponent resists, throws other strikes, etc., and its up to the defender to adapt to that.  As always, keep in mind that the techniques are not set in stone.  They're a foundation to build from.  

When my inst. throws an attack at me, I need to do something, otherwise, I'm getting hit.  If things don't go as planned, I need to be able to move on to something else.

The techniques work, but its up to the student to do their part as well.  There are no secret solutions.  Its really very simple...during training, we need to make it as realistic as possible.  Of course, adding in some sparring will make a big difference too.


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## onibaku (Oct 20, 2007)

my teacher taught me that whoever strikes first is the winner or has a higher chance of winning. he would always say that I should strike first

not everything we learned can be used in every situation. for example is blocks. I think that in a street fight evading is better than blocking. my teacher taught me to evade, then strike if striking first is not possible. he taught me techniques that finish a fight early. one strike, one kill. finish the opponent first before he has the chance to counter-attack


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## Andrew Green (Oct 20, 2007)

Nobody trains against "a real fight".

Everyone trains with some combination of rules, safety equipment  and control.

Different people just have different ideas on how to mix them.


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## newGuy12 (Oct 22, 2007)

Okay, I like this thinking.  Who can have combinations to manage all of these attacks?

But, as has been said, these combinations are very robust.  Consider, _*Five Swords*_.  You defend against the right hook punch, thrown in a big way.  You block, and then the right hand strikes the side of the neck. And then it continues.

What if the attacker throws a combination instead, one-two.  In comes the attacker's left hand, and you get creamed.  Not necessarily.  The right hand chop to the neck, it can _*cross*_ the body instead, to block, no problem.  That is how robust _*Five Swords*_ is.

When the hand crosses the body to block the left hand (second punch), you may give a rake to the face a little bit as well.  This is why these techniques are so impressive.  The Teacher can show how they can be used in very different circumstances.  I've seen these demonstrations, where the "what if" parts are brought to light!

Of course, if it all ends up on the ground, oh my!  That is a different story, of course!


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## Sukerkin (Oct 22, 2007)

Not over this ground *again*, please !  Need a really big smiley for "exasperated" at this juncture ROFL.

We've hashed, rehashed, mashed, blended, dissected and dissemboweled this subject so many times ... and that's just in the short time I've been here .

Properly taught and implemented kata based training works wonderfully for transmitting techniques and knowledge to students.  The pace of the training at any given time matters not one jot as long as you are aware of how to speed it up when you need to.  As the old adage goes - first comes right, then comes fast.  

Sparring is nothing like fighting in the 'real world' and has no more right to claim 'value' than any other training tool.  In many ways it inculcates bad technique that you need kata training to remove or keep at bay.  That doesn't mean that it has no value, just that you have to be aware of it's limitations.  For example, it helps to teach students with under-active visualisation skills how to vary their timing and distance and can help iron out 'flinch' reflexes.

When I trained in Lau Gar, we did both kata and full contact sparring {none of todays cotton-wool approach to martial training back then :lol:}.  Of the two, in my opinion, kata was more useful.  I didn't think so when I started but after a decade I thought very differently.  It's the visualisation and the understanding of the techniques that makes all the difference in the world between _proper_ kata training and simple dumb-rote repetition.

When I had no choice but put that training into practise under very adverse conditions, I had no trouble at 'letting go' of the kata template and applying the techniques I required.

With the sword art I'm now training in, clearly sparring would be a most impractical way of training.  There are some choreographed partner forms done with bokken but otherwise it's all kata and visualisation ... just as it has been for centuries (other than the odd break to go and slice someone in twain during battle).  Does that mean that I wouldn't be able to use my katana for self defence if I needed to?  I can't actually say but I would suspect that the only trouble would be steeling myself to use a three foot razor on another person.


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## still learning (Oct 22, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Okay, I like this thinking. Who can have combinations to manage all of these attacks?
> 
> But, as has been said, these combinations are very robust. Consider, _*Five Swords*_. You defend against the right hook punch, thrown in a big way. You block, and then the right hand strikes the side of the neck. And then it continues.
> 
> ...


 
Hello, Most Kempo school have mulitple counters and attacks ....ever see them do it in a REAL FIGHT...all those fancy and mulitple moves?....

Many of the MMA fighters have Kempo back grounds...ever see a fght where they block a punch or hook punch and do those Kempo moves? ....NEVER in the rings?....WHY? ...they work great in class.....BUT?

REAL fights are more liking boxing....just watch a few matches...and see how MMA fighters fight? .....which is one of the few things that is almost REAL fighting...............Aloha


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## still learning (Oct 22, 2007)

Hello, In a real fight? ....you think after you block my punch? ...I am just going to stand there and wait for the rest of the kempo MOVES?

Kempo moves are NICE...can be fast....BUT only if the guy does not moves around or counter just as fast as you!

Instead of one step or couple of steps movements....have that person attack you like on the streets.....starting with a right hand punch..and continues his attacks against you? ....like it is for REALS......

than try to do the five swords? ....Aloha

PS:The proof is always in the ACTUAL combat.....not class rooms
Plus the adrenline,Fear factors,in a real situtions....always different from class room situtions.....REAL PLAY here!


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2007)

Ok, hands up all those people that have seen a 'real' fight. yes those brawling, sometimes drunken, swinging, grab a broken bottle on the way, stupid kicking madness that people like to call real fights.

Real fights aren't like matches. They aren't like boxing. MMA fighting isn't like 'real' fighting or at least street fights, don't even try comparing them and not because of the 'rules' thing. They aren't alike because both fighters are sober, both fighters are working to a plan and both have control. Fights in the street are nothing like this, there are confusing melees where anything can happen, people shouting, joining in or trying to drag people apart, girlfriends screaming and joining in, there's people spitting, peeing, shouting abuse, throwing things, that's the reality of 'street' fights. Ask any copper on duty in any British town on a Saturday night.

*Street fighting is not combat*, it's hooliganism, it's GBH,ABH, it's cowardly and stupid, there is no nobility in brawling. 

I've seen blocks in MMA, I don't know if I've seen Kempo, it's rare in the UK though I think there are some clubs here. 

Still Learning what do you consider combat?


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## terryl965 (Oct 22, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, In a real fight? ....you think after you block my punch? ...I am just going to stand there and wait for the rest of the kempo MOVES?
> 
> Kempo moves are NICE...can be fast....BUT only if the guy does not moves around or counter just as fast as you!
> 
> ...


 
I would love to be in your fantasy world. Nobody trains like a street fight if they did they would only train once in a great while.

Street fight means everything goes. I would love to train with you.
Maybe I need to come to Hawaii so you can show me how to be trained since you have all the answers. I know alot of Kempo guys that would be offended by your statement and I know that I know nothing because I teach TKD, which is a joke to everybody.
ALOHA


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## theletch1 (Oct 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, hands up all those people that have seen a 'real' fight. yes those brawling, sometimes drunken, swinging, grab a broken bottle on the way, stupid kicking madness that people like to call real fights.
> 
> Real fights aren't like matches. They aren't like boxing. MMA fighting isn't like 'real' fighting or at least street fights, don't even try comparing them and not because of the 'rules' thing. They aren't alike because both fighters are sober, both fighters are working to a plan and both have control. Fights in the street are nothing like this, there are confusing melees where anything can happen, people shouting, joining in or trying to drag people apart, girlfriends screaming and joining in, there's people spitting, peeing, shouting abuse, throwing things, that's the reality of 'street' fights. Ask any copper on duty in any British town on a Saturday night.
> 
> ...


I'll take the drunken hooligan over the trained MMA guy every time.  Folks get a little blood in their whiskey stream and the balance goes to crap.  Planted punches disappear, crisp kicks become non-existent, so on and so forth.  Make no mistake, NO attacker should be taken lightly.  Cowardly and stupid, you say?  Could not agree with you more.  That's probably why I stay away from places where drunks gather.  I'm not sure what everyone is considering a "real" fight but the moment someone threatens me with physical violence that could keep me from coming home to my family it becomes a "real" fight to me and I will use "real" technique (and every dirty trick that comes to mind) to come home to my loving wife and adoring son.


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## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> I'll take the drunken hooligan over the trained MMA guy every time. Folks get a little blood in their whiskey stream and the balance goes to crap. Planted punches disappear, crisp kicks become non-existent, so on and so forth. Make no mistake, NO attacker should be taken lightly. Cowardly and stupid, you say? Could not agree with you more. That's probably why I stay away from places where drunks gather. I'm not sure what everyone is considering a "real" fight but the moment someone threatens me with physical violence that could keep me from coming home to my family it becomes a "real" fight to me and I will use "real" technique (and every dirty trick that comes to mind) to come home to my loving wife and adoring son.


 
I totally agreed with you. I hate this 'glamming up' of so called street fighting as if it's something glorious and to be respected. We train self defence and fighting to defend our selves against attackers not ninjas or samurai or even Spec Forces on a mission. Some people need to get over this glorification of combat and see it for what it is.... a battle for survival and the person who wants to live most will most likely win. It doesn't necessarily take a martial artist to win either, imagine a mother fighting when her child is in danger. We will all do what we have to - to be the one walking away. That's the reality in black and white.


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## MrE2Me2 (Oct 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I totally agreed with you. I hate this 'glamming up' of so called street fighting as if it's something glorious and to be respected...



Amen to that!
There has been much to much emphasis on this foolishness.
Instead, one should be able to survive it intact and live a life worth living!
A Martial Art is one where there is realistic training for both aspects.
That is emphasis on the "Art" as well as the "Martial".


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## newGuy12 (Oct 22, 2007)

still learning said:


> Many of the MMA fighters have Kempo back grounds...ever see a fght where they block a punch or hook punch and do those Kempo moves? ....NEVER in the rings?....WHY? ...they work great in class.....BUT?



Hello, still_learning!

I understand what you are saying.  BUT, I actually DID see a Kenpo Man do a technique straight out of the book in one of those "cage match" things one time.  Now, I do not regularly watch cage matches, and I cannot recall why I was watching this particular one.  

But, there was a Kenpo Man (American Kenpo --> GrandMaster Ed Parker's style).  And, he did a technique *STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOOK!*

I am not lying.  This may not happen often, but it did this particular time, and I saw it on film.  I cannot recall who this Kenpo Man is.  He was fighting against some gosh-awful big guy.  This opponent was as big as a house!!!  Okay, so, the Kenpo Man comes out, and does *SLEEPER*.  

Now, Sleeper is a defense to the punch.  There was no punch, and he did not follow through all of the technique.  He stopped once the choke hold was on.  He simply stopped, and cinched down.  The Real Big Guy went out like a light bulb.

No joke.  I saw it on film.

Now, surely no one is going to expect all of these techniques to work in a textbook way all of the time.  But, sometimes you may be surprised.

Besides... what about this?  You are attacked with some big right hand punch... okay, you do FIVE SWORDS.  At some point you must consider... what if it does not work?  Okay, well, at least you have both hands flying about.  They may block SOMETHING.  They may hit SOMETHING.  They may rake SOMETHING.

You see, when you are doing Five Swords, at least you are not just standing there waiting to be a punching bag.  Five Swords is not to be taken lightly.  It is a very dangerous technique, very fast motion, many strikes packed into a short amount of time!!!

Aloha, still_learning!



Robert


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## newGuy12 (Oct 22, 2007)

Still_learning, Sir.

I don't wish to cause a fuss or argument, but it confuses me that you would doubt this way.  You yourself live in Hawaii.  *Ed Parker came from Hawaii!!!*  You seem to think that these people were just theoreticians, they were not.  They would fight and so on.  Ed Parker was a genius who understood how one motion flows into another.  One strike can cause a reaction in the opponent.  It is then anticipated.

He understood deep things about motion.

I have found an American Kenpo Teacher in my city who teaches classes, not just private lessons.  I plan to visit him and join in his school to augment my TKD.  This Kenpo is no joke.  If you read Ed Parker's Infinite Insights into Kenpo, he makes it QUITE CLEAR that this real fighting has no rules.  He understands this all too clearly.  He had in mind this no-rules way of fighting from the beginning.  

You also live in Hawaii.  How can you doubt these techniques so???



Robert


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## jks9199 (Oct 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I totally agreed with you. I hate this 'glamming up' of so called street fighting as if it's something glorious and to be respected. We train self defence and fighting to defend our selves against attackers not ninjas or samurai or even Spec Forces on a mission. Some people need to get over this glorification of combat and see it for what it is.... a battle for survival and the person who wants to live most will most likely win. It doesn't necessarily take a martial artist to win either, imagine a mother fighting when her child is in danger. We will all do what we have to - to be the one walking away. That's the reality in black and white.


Until they've been there, seen the elephant, and got the t-shirt, they won't get it.  But they'll be sure to tell you all about how it should go...

Kind of like a rookie just out of FTO...


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Hello, still_learning!
> 
> I understand what you are saying. BUT, I actually DID see a Kenpo Man do a technique straight out of the book in one of those "cage match" things one time. Now, I do not regularly watch cage matches, and I cannot recall why I was watching this particular one.
> 
> ...


 
What an excellent move for MMA! I'm going to try that out tonight, thank you! As I said the only reason I don't think we see Kenpo moves much over here in MMA is that it's a little known style here but that is the only reason. 
I'm not going to add anymore as like many on here I'm a bit tired of bashing my head on a brick wall!


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## terryl965 (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> What an excellent move for MMA! I'm going to try that out tonight, thank you! As I said the only reason I don't think we see Kenpo moves much over here in MMA is that it's a little known style here but that is the only reason.
> I'm not going to add anymore as like many on here I'm a bit tired of bashing my head on a brick wall!


 

It temds to get old pretty fast and that brick is giving me an headache
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 .


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## MJS (Oct 23, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Most Kempo school have mulitple counters and attacks ....ever see them do it in a REAL FIGHT...all those fancy and mulitple moves?....
> 
> Many of the MMA fighters have Kempo back grounds...ever see a fght where they block a punch or hook punch and do those Kempo moves? ....NEVER in the rings?....WHY? ...they work great in class.....BUT?
> 
> REAL fights are more liking boxing....just watch a few matches...and see how MMA fighters fight? .....which is one of the few things that is almost REAL fighting...............Aloha


 


still learning said:


> Hello, In a real fight? ....you think after you block my punch? ...I am just going to stand there and wait for the rest of the kempo MOVES?
> 
> Kempo moves are NICE...can be fast....BUT only if the guy does not moves around or counter just as fast as you!
> 
> ...


 
SL, let me make a few suggestions for you.  It seems like every post you make, you bash something.  Why?  I've been down the same road as you, saying that certain things are not in Kenpo, and others telling me yes, it is in there.  Perhaps you should take a look at the way YOU train!  Maybe, just maybe you're not getting what YOU want out of it.  If thats the case, considering you're in Hawaii, the birthplace of Kenpo/Kaju, I suggest going to another school.  Hawaii is loaded with Kajukenbo schools.  Maybe you should try that.  

If you're still not interested in Kenpo, then do MMA.  If you feel that will better address your needs, then train in that.  

I going to guess and say that you have not trained for that long.  I've trained in Kenpo for over 20 yrs and I cross train in Arnis and BJJ.  The 3 combined, meet everything that I'm looking for.

I strongly suggest that you re-evaluate your training, find whats best for you and train in it!  You don't seem happy with Kenpo, otherwise you wouldn't bash it like you're doing now.  As others have said to me...Maybe its YOUR Kenpo that needs improvement.  I took on other arts to further address certain areas.  I'm happy.  I like Kenpo.  If I didn't I would have left it a long time ago.  

I find it odd that you say that certain things can't be done in a real fight.  Hmmm...have you been in a real fight?  I'm sure everyone else who trains in Kenpo or Kaju would have left if what they're training in failed them.  

You're right...nobody stands still in a fight, allowing you to do your full technique.  Thats why you need to be able to graft and flow from one move to the next, adapting to whats presented to you.  As I said in another post you apparently didn't read, when my inst. throws a strike at me, I have two options...stand still and get hit, or move.  He makes me work.  He doesnt give anything to me.  He'll throw a punch, and while I'm doing the tech. he'll do something else.  He keeps it real.  I'm guessing your inst. does not do this.  

Good luck in YOUR training.

Mike


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## Cirdan (Oct 23, 2007)

still learning said:


> than we counter...most of these are done at a very slow or unrealistic speed. ...and most of these moves are told in advance..and we do them at slower speeds.
> 
> In the real world...these punches and kicks (any combintions) are coming fast, furious, and explosive!


 
wise Chinese man say:
_Train slow, learn fast :asian:_


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## MJS (Oct 23, 2007)

SL,

Check out this link.  I'm sure this is not the full list of Kaju schools in Hawaii, but its a start.  There are many Professors and GMs of the art there.


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## still learning (Oct 23, 2007)

MJS said:


> SL,
> 
> Check out this link. I'm sure this is not the full list of Kaju schools in Hawaii, but its a start. There are many Professors and GMs of the art there.


 
Hello, Thank-you for sharing that.  My Professor is Martin T. Buell, who started his own school of martial art...Universal Kempo Karate schools Assoc.

My Professor train under Professor Thomas Young, Professor Adriano, Paul Seronia, Al Reyes, Walter Godin. 

Our system came from Kajukenpo....Our Professor took many things from Kajukenpo....and add his "ways".

Every martial art schools.....can always improve the  way they train their students.

This is what I am seeking.....another way to improve the training methods.
I am an outlaw in thinking at Universal Kempo......NO longer a sheep.....seeking NEW ways....more effective than what is taught today...CAN WE improve all the training? ......SURE!

Many things in Science of the past...which was base to be true....today some of those things are proven wrong....NOT to prove wrong..but to seek a better way of training!

Always seeking....better methods of learning.....

Runners no longer train in the ways of the 50's and 60's
Swimmers no longer train in the ways of the 50' 60's
Martial arts? .....better ways will be discover....and one day NO longer train in the ways of the past.......always seek find "better ways"

Limit the thinking this is all you need to know? ......one will never advqnce
That is why today so many people cross train...

Before BJJ came into light? ...NO one believe learning grappling was important....GRACES family change that thinking

Before Bruce Lee came to light? ...his thinking has change many believers of the past ways of training.....

Always question the learning......if it right for you....than KEEP it! ...Aloha


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## MJS (Oct 23, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, Thank-you for sharing that. My Professor is Martin T. Buell, who started his own school of martial art...Universal Kempo Karate schools Assoc.
> 
> My Professor train under Professor Thomas Young, Professor Adriano, Paul Seronia, Al Reyes, Walter Godin.
> 
> ...


 
SL,

Like I said, if you feel that your training is not giving you what you want, then I suggest you find something that does.  Keep in mind, that it may not necessarily be the art, but the way you are doing your training.  Like I've said to you, when I train my techs. my instructor doesnt just stand there.  Sure, in the beginning, its necessary in order to get the moves down, but after that, you need to keep it real.  

Keep in mind, that the techs. are a building block.  You may not pull off an entire tech., but instead only a part of it.  Doesnt mean that the art is useless though.  

Trust me, I'm the first one to talk about training with some realism, aliveness and the importance of cross training or cross referencing other arts. The art works, but you need to put in some work as well.  Nothing comes easy.


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## bmcgonag (Oct 28, 2007)

Most of you have it the way I see it.  Training is for ideal situations.  You have to start off on how to defend against one punch, kick, or grab.  Then you build on that to combinations.  You learn how to put them together.  You focus on repetition of the basic techniques.  

Street fighters do come in fast and furious, and they do throw as much as they can as fast as they can.  Many times this is because they are afraid and don't want you to get a chance, and many times these are what I call flurry punches...they sting a little, but don't do excessive damage.  Don't get me wrong there are people who street fight who are extremely strong and skilled, and it would be a major mistake to ever think otherwise til the fight is over. 

To me, though, there is a difference between a street fight and an attacker trying to rob you, assault you sexually, kidnap you, etc.  Street fights are two guys or multiple people duking it out for pride or face, or whatever.  My advice fight dirty, you usually see this coming.

An attacker trying to rob, rape, kidnap, whatever, will try to sneak up on you, because the element of surprise is their friend.  

All you can do is practice, and practice hard.  Get someone in a padded suit, but make sure they react appropriately when you fight back.  But have them attack you with a barrage of crazy strikes, kicks, grabs.  Have them take you down if they can, and fight dirty to get them off of you.  Don't quit, don't give up, there's plenty of time to catch your breath later.

Best, and I hope none of you ever have to find out for real, 

Brian


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## Sorros (Oct 28, 2007)

bmcgonag said:


> Most of you have it the way I see it. Training is for ideal situations. You have to start off on how to defend against one punch, kick, or grab. Then you build on that to combinations. You learn how to put them together. You focus on repetition of the basic techniques.
> 
> Street fighters do come in fast and furious, and they do throw as much as they can as fast as they can. Many times this is because they are afraid and don't want you to get a chance, and many times these are what I call flurry punches...they sting a little, but don't do excessive damage. Don't get me wrong there are people who street fight who are extremely strong and skilled, and it would be a major mistake to ever think otherwise til the fight is over.
> 
> ...


That is totally the reason quit doing any style that punches and kick in the air. I wasn't until I studied Krav Maga that I realised, If you don't use focus mitts and hand held pads, to actually hit and kick something while training. You really not trainig for a fight. The air punchers and kickers have no defence when homeboy jacks you up against a wall or throws you on the ground. 
Most of your martial arts are tost when a good grappler or jujitsu guy gets hold of them.


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## Drac (Oct 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Until they've been there, seen the elephant, and got the t-shirt, they won't get it. But they'll be sure to tell you all about how it should go...
> 
> Kind of like a rookie just out of FTO...


 
Well said...In the academy we put the rookies in the Redman suits and make one the suspect and one the cop..A small taste of realism of just how fast a fight can be...


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## still learning (Oct 28, 2007)

Hello, When one puts on boxing gloves to play or practice with a friends....with real live hard hitting punches? ....you realize quickly how different it is from our martial art training. (OK boxing with friends...has rules and NO kicking)....just working our boxing skills here.

Getting hit.....and hitting back?  ...boxing is a hard art to learn!  especially ducking and weaveing.

Boxers tells me it  takes a few months in the ring before alot of the punches don't hurt anymore ...or feels less painful?

Training and reality can be two very different things?

There is an old story of FBI agents gun training...they would shoot three times pick up their shells and than shoot again.

One day these agents got into a gun battle....afterwards many of them found empty shells in their pockets like in practice training!  fire three shots stop to pick up the shells.....funny huh?

The real test of your training may come from an actual incident? ....hope this never does to you!

Aloha , (Training lesssons and real lessons? ...so many times so different!)


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## Drag'n (Oct 29, 2007)

Still learning, I'm going to go against everybody else and agree with you.
I started asking those same questions after many years of traditional training.

Its not so much that the techniques won't work, but the way in which they are often trained thats the problem.

I see soo many vids of people demonstrating "self defence", where an uke throws a half hearted reverse lunge punch ( the easiest attack in the world to defend against, but the one you'll never see in a real fight) and the defnder will block and then counter with a 5 or 6 (or more!) move combination while the uke just stands there and lets him do it.

A lot of guys can get veery good at putting together these lightning fast impressive combos, but in total ignorance of how a real fight works. 
Well what do you expect? Most of these kind of people have never really trained with any realistic contact, let alone been in a real fight.

Of course they will defend it buy saying such things as:
 "its the building blocks, the ABC's of combat" .
" Of course you use it differently in a real situation." etc.....

Nothing wrong with that statement . I agree.
Youve got to learn to walk before you can run.

BUT, a lot of MAists dont go past that ABC level to get to learning words and actually having a conversation.
The training stops short of taking them to the point of being able to apply it
in a real struggle.

The bottom line is if you want to learn how to fight , you've got to do just that. Fight.

Unfortunately training with realism is difficult. Its dangerous and it hurts.
But with smart use of protective gear and a little bit of control you can take it to a pretty real level.

Those techniques that cant be applied safely in a sparring situation can at least be drilled in a realistic way. 
Defending against undetermined random attacks where the attacker  also reacts to movements from the defender, and shows some resistance, rather then just standing there, is something to consider . Also training against combination attacks.

I think anybody who is serious about learning how to fight will ask the same questions you are.
As a serious martial artist I think we all need to constantly re evaluate our training practice and search for a higher and more effective level.
Isnt that what these forums are for?

Good luck in your search.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2007)

I'll admit that I'm thinking of changing schools... for some of the reasons mentioned here.

The way I figure, people do MA for any number of a few reasons 1) Self-defense 2) Sport 3) Art 4) Conditioning and 5) Spirituality.  5 Doesn't apply to me, and I think while 4 is a nice side benefit, that if you just want to get/stay in shape, there are a lot of easier and cheaper ways to do it.   Art is fine but starting at 35 and already being a musician, husband and father, I don't have the time in my life to devote to another artistic endeavor for art's sake.  And I started too old I think to really be an 'artist' in this realm, so Art is another nice side benefit, but cannot be the goal.  Which comes down to Sport and Self-Defense (for me... everyone has their own goals and motivations)

For me, I've always wanted my focus to be on self-defense, with some opportunities at sport as a safe way of testing myself.  Unfortunately, my current school seems to be mostly focused on art.  While occasionally we talk about the usage of techniques for self-defense, we rarely train in  any way that drills anything even close.  We do a lot of punch and kick drills but they are never against resistance.  And they are never in the context of how/when to use them; how to set them up, etc..  I feel like I'm learning the abstraction of the art but not the application.

Which is a shame because I really like our instructor and he is *really good* at what he does, but... I'm not sure I'm getting out of the school what I'm there for.  This has been pretty heavy on my mind for the last few weeks so I'm just free-associating out loud here


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## Andrew Green (Oct 29, 2007)

FearlessFreep said:


> The way I figure, people do MA for any number of a few reasons 1) Self-defense 2) Sport 3) Art 4) Conditioning and 5) Spirituality.



6) Fun

The other 5 are side effects.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> 6) Fun
> 
> The other 5 are side effects.



Which doesn't really help me.  It is fun but...

I'm an amateur/semi-pro musician attempting to go more full time (at least 50% with my software development work).  I'm also a husband with six kids.  While it's nice that the things in my life are fun, I really can't justify the time/expense of an activity for which 'fun' is the goal


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## Andrew Green (Oct 29, 2007)

I think that is the best reason to justify it...   If everything you do has to have a purpose, well, I'd burn out pretty quick.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2007)

Well, if you went to a cooking class because you wanted to cook but you didn't learn to cook but you did have fun, would it be worth the expense if you actually wanted to learn how to cook?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 29, 2007)

If I went to a cooking class, having fun would largely involve making tasty things, and if I get that result, I'd call it a success 

Football, hockey, tennis, golf, model airplanes, train sets, poker, video games, concert tickets, etc.  All things people spend money on for no practical use except to have fun and learn about the activity they are doing.  Outside of that activity there is no "real" use though.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2007)

_If I went to a cooking class, having fun would largely involve making tasty things, and if I get that result, I'd call it a success_

That was kinda my point, I'm going to the cooking class but not making tasty things.... In this case 'tasty things' is "Self-defense with a side order of Sport".  What I'm getting is a lot of table setting


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## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I think that is the best reason to justify it...   If everything you do has to have a purpose, well, I'd burn out pretty quick.


I have to agree...  Play is a perfectly justified end for an activity.  The more we've learned of animals, the more we find that they play throughout their lives; maybe they know something?

You just have to balance your activities; if you only do things for fun, you won't meet your responsibilities.  But if you never try to have fun...  you'll burn out, burn up, and just generally fry yourself.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 29, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> 6) Fun
> 
> The other 5 are side effects.



This is true. If it was such a pain, and not a requirement to make money to get food or pay the rent, people would not do it.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 29, 2007)

I guess I sorta assumed you wouldn't do it if it wasn't fun, so 'having fun' as an underlying requirement is a given.  Mostly what  I was thinking about was the idea of whether was you are getting out of the class as a personal accomplishment is what you are hoping to get out of a class.

What I hope to get out of the class is to be more skilled in personal self-defense and to have some fun in the sport of the martial arts along the way.  Everybody trains different but in my own situation I'm just getting the feeling that the way we train is not moving me toward either of those goals.


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## MJS (Oct 29, 2007)

still learning said:


> Hello, When one puts on boxing gloves to play or practice with a friends....with real live hard hitting punches? ....you realize quickly how different it is from our martial art training. (OK boxing with friends...has rules and NO kicking)....just working our boxing skills here.
> 
> Getting hit.....and hitting back? ...boxing is a hard art to learn! especially ducking and weaveing.
> 
> ...


 


Drag'n said:


> Still learning, I'm going to go against everybody else and agree with you.
> I started asking those same questions after many years of traditional training.
> 
> Its not so much that the techniques won't work, but the way in which they are often trained thats the problem.
> ...


 
Drag'n,

I quoted SLs post in addition to your as I think it bears some relevance.  IMHO, I think that there is an assumption here, mostly on the part of SL.  Seems to me that he thinks that nobody trains with realism, he thinks that nobody has ever used a technique, either in part or in full, in a real situation, and that nobody takes their training to the next level.

IMO, unless someone knows how everyone out there trains, how can he say the things he does?  As I said in an earlier post...you need to start off slow, in the 'Ideal Phase' and gradually work to the "What if/Even If" phase.  You need to put on gear and have someone really take a swing at you.  You need to spar.  I'm fortunate to train at a school and have an instructor that does all these things.  I don't think that these things are addressed at SLs school, therefore, he assumes that nobody else does either.  In another thread, I suggested to him that if hes not happy with his training, he needs to sit down and re-evaluate it..plain and simple.  I gave him a link to a few Kajukenbo schools in Hawaii, where he lives, and suggested that he check them out, as they just may give him the realistic training he's looking for.

Mike


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## Drag'n (Oct 30, 2007)

Mike,
 I hear you mate. Of course I'm making generalizations too.
But they are generalizations based on years of training in and visiting various dojos and watching loads of martial art demonstrations.
The sad fact is that its hard to find a good dojo these days.

There are soo many people out there teaching fighting skills who have never experienced any kind of fight. It shows in their training methods.
They pass on this distorted perception of combat to unknowing students, who may not realize till its too late, that they really couldn't fight their way out of a retirement home with the skills they've been spoon fed.

It may sound like I'm having a dig at TMA but I'm not really. I think TMA can be very effective when taught properly. Its just that I dont see them being taught properly very often.

The point I'm poorly attempting to make is that I think its good to question what we're being taught. Dont just blindly accept every thing. Make the effort to test what you know under pressure and just be honest with yourself.
If you are being taught to throw a long combination of techniques at a partner who is just standing there frozen, maybe you need to think a little bit about just how realistic that is.

I understand SLs anguish because I felt exactly the same way.
The exasperation of comming to the realization that you've wasted years doing something that you thought was effective, only to find that in reality it just doesnt translate into good fighting skills.
Its a hard pill to swallow.

Im under the impression that 'those of us in good dojos seem to be the lucky exception rather than the norm. 
It took me a long time to find one.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2007)

Drag'n said:


> Mike,
> I hear you mate. Of course I'm making generalizations too.
> But they are generalizations based on years of training in and visiting various dojos and watching loads of martial art demonstrations.
> The sad fact is that its hard to find a good dojo these days.


 
Thanks for the reply.   I think you're spot on with this comment though.  IMHO, I think there are more people out there that cringe at some of the more 'violent' aspects of the arts, cringe at the contact levels, etc.  This is a shame IMO, because the arts are going to have contact and they're going to cover the 'violent' aspects too.  If someone can't handle it, they should, IMO, re-evaluate their training status.  I'm not just speaking of SL in this case, but anyone who considers MA training. 



> There are soo many people out there teaching fighting skills who have never experienced any kind of fight. It shows in their training methods.
> They pass on this distorted perception of combat to unknowing students, who may not realize till its too late, that they really couldn't fight their way out of a retirement home with the skills they've been spoon fed.


 
Very true.



> It may sound like I'm having a dig at TMA but I'm not really. I think TMA can be very effective when taught properly. Its just that I dont see them being taught properly very often.


 
Nope, I didn't take it as a dig at all.    In fact, I agree with you. 



> The point I'm poorly attempting to make is that I think its good to question what we're being taught. Dont just blindly accept every thing. Make the effort to test what you know under pressure and just be honest with yourself.
> If you are being taught to throw a long combination of techniques at a partner who is just standing there frozen, maybe you need to think a little bit about just how realistic that is.


 
Agreed.  Seems like it stops there, without ever reaching the 'what if' or resistance/aliveness phase.



> I understand SLs anguish because I felt exactly the same way.
> The exasperation of comming to the realization that you've wasted years doing something that you thought was effective, only to find that in reality it just doesnt translate into good fighting skills.
> Its a hard pill to swallow.


 
I think alot of us have been there.  I often sit and think, "Gee, if I knew then what I know now..." 



> Im under the impression that 'those of us in good dojos seem to be the lucky exception rather than the norm.
> It took me a long time to find one.


 
Ditto.   Whats really funny, is many of my best workout sessions were those backyard, garage dojo settings.  Nothing formal, no traditions, just some good 'ol hard training.:ultracool


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## still learning (Oct 30, 2007)

Hello, Yes we all need to start somewhere....learn in steps, have to learn proper mechanics of punches and kicks...than combintions.

The question of training against real fighting? ....how can we do this without getting hurt or hurting others? 

Some believe sparring, others full contact, some just Kata's,  

NO two fights may be the same TOO?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Bottom line is if you get into a real fight for your life? ......than  you may get a good answer?

BUT: if you do not practice or train very hard....or body is not fit? ....than the answers may change?

Most martial art class and systems will work...for the more develop ones....than again...the way you train is the way you will fight?  this is were some of the answer will come to you!

It comes down to the person with the right mental strengths and Killer instincts.

People with NO formal training but huge "KILLER INTINCTS" .....NO FEAR...many times are tuff to beat!  

............Aloha (train wisely....be smarter here)

PS: Adrenline and the fears by yourself facing a real life situations is very different from the DOJO's....this can effect the way you fight or flee?


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## swiftpete (Oct 31, 2007)

newGuy12 said:


> Hello, still_learning!
> 
> I understand what you are saying. BUT, I actually DID see a Kenpo Man do a technique straight out of the book in one of those "cage match" things one time. Now, I do not regularly watch cage matches, and I cannot recall why I was watching this particular one.
> 
> ...


 

Sorry but I laughed out loud when I read this. No disrespect intended but it is funny. Makes me think of inspector clouseau having a fight! Hey I might hit something if my hands are flying about!


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