# Is there a point to learning how to knife fight?



## Gruenewald

From what I've seen around this forum is seems as though nearly everybody will try to dissuade you from getting into a knife fight, or urge you that the majority of the time a "knife fight" s more like an ambush. It seems as though the chances that somebody proficient with a knife will ever be able to use those skills effectively in a self-defense situation are slim to none.

This begs the question in my mind: aside from a purely developmental standpoint, learning to knife fight solely to improve yourself and pursue it as a hobby/goal (which knife fighting has never struck me as, due to its overtly lethal nature and how difficult it is to practice when compared with other "martial arts"), is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, I mean.


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## elder999

Gruenewald said:


> , is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, I mean.


 
_*Yes.*_


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## Touch Of Death

Gruenewald said:


> From what I've seen around this forum is seems as though nearly everybody will try to dissuade you from getting into a knife fight, or urge you that the majority of the time a "knife fight" s more like an ambush. It seems as though the chances that somebody proficient with a knife will ever be able to use those skills effectively in a self-defense situation are slim to none.
> 
> This begs the question in my mind: aside from a purely developmental standpoint, learning to knife fight solely to improve yourself and pursue it as a hobby/goal (which knife fighting has never struck me as, due to its overtly lethal nature and how difficult it is to practice when compared with other "martial arts"), is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, I mean.


 Yes!!!!


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## dbell

gruenewald said:


> from what i've seen around this forum is seems as though nearly everybody will try to dissuade you from getting into a knife fight, or urge you that the majority of the time a "knife fight" s more like an ambush. It seems as though the chances that somebody proficient with a knife will ever be able to use those skills effectively in a self-defense situation are slim to none.
> 
> This begs the question in my mind: Aside from a purely developmental standpoint, learning to knife fight solely to improve yourself and pursue it as a hobby/goal (which knife fighting has never struck me as, due to its overtly lethal nature and how difficult it is to practice when compared with other "martial arts"), is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, i mean.



yes!


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## Gruenewald

Umm... mind elaborating? In what kind of a situation would knife skills be useful?


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## elder999

Gruenewald said:


> Umm... mind elaborating? In what kind of a situation would knife skills be useful?


 
First off, this:




Gruenewald said:


> From what I've seen around this forum is seems as though nearly everybody will try to dissuade you from getting into a knife fight, or urge you that the majority of the time a "knife fight" s more like an ambush.


 
doesn't necessarily equate with _this_:



Gruenewald said:


> It seems as though the chances that somebody proficient with a knife will ever be able to use those skills effectively in a self-defense situation are slim to none.


 
In fact, it seems to be an erroneous *****umption on your part.

So....



Gruenewald said:


> Umm... *mind elaborating*?


:lfao:

In all seriousness:




Gruenewald said:


> is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, I mean.


 
I carry a knife almost all the time-for cutting boxes, rope, pieces of meat, fruit, and things of that nature. However, I also could use it for multiple _unarmed_ assailants. Or as a last-ditch contingency in a variety of situations.

I could use the _training_ with a knife _like_ sharp object, like a pen, or scissors, if I were left without any other recourse;in fact, I *have.*


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## MJS

Gruenewald said:


> From what I've seen around this forum is seems as though nearly everybody will try to dissuade you from getting into a knife fight,or urge you that the majority of the time a "knife fight" s more like an ambush. It seems as though the chances that somebody proficient with a knife will ever be able to use those skills effectively in a self-defense situation are slim to none.
> 
> This begs the question in my mind: aside from a purely developmental standpoint, learning to knife fight solely to improve yourself and pursue it as a hobby/goal (which knife fighting has never struck me as, due to its overtly lethal nature and how difficult it is to practice when compared with other "martial arts"), is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, I mean.


 
Well, of course, if at all possible, avoiding a fight is the ideal.  Will they all be ambushes? No.  Should you learn how to fight against and with a knife?  Yes!  IMO, if you dont understand a weapon, defending against it will be much harder.  Would I use a knife to defend myself?  If that was the only tool available to me, yes, I would.  Of course, as elder said, just because you may not have a knife, a pen, pencil, or other pointy object could be substituted.


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## MA-Caver

I also say Yes. 

Try this... you are attacked by someone wielding a knife, your MA/SD skills happen to knock it out of their hands but they're still getting back up. 
The knife is near enough for you to pick it up and use it on them... would you? Do you? Could you?


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## Archangel M

As a "skill set" yes. As an "obsession"? You would best be served spending your time on other stuff IMO.


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## mook jong man

Well for me it gave me an understanding of all the angles that the knife can be used in , it also gave me a greater sense of distancing and range.

Now I have a fairly good idea of just how far away I have to be from someone so that I can make them lunge and miss so that I can counter with my own blade.

In the system I learned we used a linear fencing type of footwork which gives you the ability to cover a lot of distance with one step , this ability can also come in handy for use in shutting someone down just as they are about to reach and deploy a knife.

A lot of the attributes developed will carry over into your core martial art as well.


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## elder999

MA-Caver said:


> .
> The knife is near enough for you to pick it up and use it on them... would you? Do you? Could you?


 
Yes, yes and _*YES.*_


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## Gruenewald

Thanks everybody. I presumed it would be useful to know in the case of an unarmed assailant, and I suppose you're correct about disarming the opponent and using their weapon.


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## Chris Parker

As an addition, knife combat doesn't need to be lethal. In fact, a lot of the knife training that I do is actually not lethal at all, particularly against other knives or weapons, mainly because a "lethal shot" isn't necessarily going to stop a fight straight away, but disabling cuts can.

Here in Australia, the knife is actually the most common assault weapon encountered, to training to use it familiarises the trainee in it's features, advantages, disdvantages, limitations, strengths, and more. And the tactics and actions for knife use can be easily adapted, as well as providing a range of tactics that can be used against such an attack.


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## Gruenewald

Chris Parker said:


> As an addition, knife combat doesn't need to be lethal. In fact, a lot of the knife training that I do is actually not lethal at all, particularly against other knives or weapons, mainly because a "lethal shot" isn't necessarily going to stop a fight straight away, but disabling cuts can.
> 
> Here in Australia, the knife is actually the most common assault weapon encountered, to training to use it familiarises the trainee in it's features, advantages, disdvantages, limitations, strengths, and more. And the tactics and actions for knife use can be easily adapted, as well as providing a range of tactics that can be used against such an attack.


Yeah, that's what I'm most interested in personally. Does anybody have a specific method or course to recommend with an emphasis on disabling moves (as well as general utility, ofcourse)?


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## Chris Parker

If you're talking about disabling cuts with a knife, and good all round understanding and use (including defence against), I can't recommend Michael Janich's stuff enough. Search Youtube, there's a lot of stuff there for you to see (of course, safety first! Make sure you have someone with experience to help guide you through this before attempting anything on your own!).


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## Stick Dummy

Like everyone else has posted it is all about preparing your mind and body to be able to respond to an aggravated attack.

The more you train the more you respect what ANY weapon can do to the human body.

Knives are the #1 choice of thugs based on availability, ease of concealment, and lesser criminal statutes for posession in most locales.

Age old adage:
You fight as you train....


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## Gruenewald

Chris Parker said:


> If you're talking about disabling cuts with a knife, and good all round understanding and use (including defence against), I can't recommend Michael Janich's stuff enough. Search Youtube, there's a lot of stuff there for you to see (of course, safety first! Make sure you have someone with experience to help guide you through this before attempting anything on your own!).


Cool, I'll check it out. Hoping to get a hold of some kind of practice weapons sometime soon; may just end up carving a couple of wooden knives myself (extremely blunt of course) just to start out with.

Also going to start some generic Krav Maga peripheral/reaction time training soon and perhaps some bursting if I can get those practice knives and gather a friend of mine who's also interested.


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## Chris Parker

Uh, you do have someone who knows what they are doing to help guide you, though, right? It's not just you and "an interested friend" in your backyard? You did notice where I said that was rather important, yeah?


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## Gruenewald

Chris Parker said:


> Uh, you do have someone who knows what they are doing to help guide you, though, right? It's not just you and "an interested friend" in your backyard? You did notice where I said that was rather important, yeah?


Hehe, yeah. I've got a (slightly older) friend who knows knife fighting, as well as some sparring skills passed down from his father, passed down from his father, etc. (combined with some real life experience, apparently). No idea what kind of skills they are but I do know that he knows enough to teach confidently. Also we're not training with live blades, so I'm not too worried about any accidents at this point in time.

Obviously we'd only ever move on to live blades after we've gained a considerable amount of experience, and even then we'd do everything in our power to make it as safe as possible (to a point). Also rest assured that this experience would involve the coaching of a professional (and/or constant study of videos/books on the subject). I'm not one to take on dangerous endeavors without research, that's why I'm on this forum lol.


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## Chris Parker

The main reason for going with someone who is experienced is that the less experienced will often have ideas or interpretations which are, unfortunately, less than realistic. And I don't know that you will ever "need" to train with live blades, unless doing cutting on an object (check out Michael's "Porkman" for some cutting with a knife, with a realistic feel).


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## Brian R. VanCise

The only way really to have a good chance against anothe tool is to understand how that tools moves and what it does.  That is why people that train with the knife would rather run away or get out of there as it will be really, really hard to come away unscathed if you are attacked with one.  Also all the more reason to know how to utilize one and carry one just in case it might be needed.  Besides your overall awareness and avoidance skills can serve you well in letting you know when some thing might happen and you can deploy early if needed. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





So like everyone else yes, yes and more yes.

Plus I utilize mine everyday to open boxes.  I just moved so I spent a good six hours with mine yesterday!  It is after all one of mans most important tools!


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## Gruenewald

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Plus I utilize mine everyday to open boxes.  I just moved so I spent a good six hours with mine yesterday!  It is after all one of mans most important tools!


Yeah, I can agree with that. There must have been at least a dozen occasions this week alone where I said to myself "I wish I had a knife right now..." which is one of the reasons I proposed the question in the op.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

As God, Allah, Xinu, the Giant Turtle or who or whatever you think made us did not see fit to give us fangs and claws but did give us the brains to make and carry our own, I do.

 Knife training is one of the most important things in my training time because not only do I better understand and use the weapon, it is training and teaching me about unarmed combat as well.

 I like weapons and empty hand movements that reenforce each other, share the same muscle memory, I like training for one thing on the surface but also training a few other things not apparent at the time.

 Knife strikes help your empty hand strikes ( and many of us practice arts where they are essentially the same.)

 If your doing MA with SD being either 1,2 or 3 on your list of why you do MA then you should train knife and stick and learn about guns.

 I was in the back yard, prracticing with my 22" blade Machette and my Kukri, doing patterns from Pekiti Tarsia and other stuff and my Son asked " Are you doing that in case you have to sword fight?"
 No I'm doing this because it can help with any fight but it can also make me less likely to have to fight." " And it's fun, just like when we play Lightsaber battle or Roman Battle (with thses foam swords and sheilds we have.) it's alot of fun and you get a good sweat out of it."

 So knife training can help you fend off your 8 year olds sweet Lightsaber technique (He even figured out some key movements from the films, I have a future Nick Gilard on my hands.) if nothing else.


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## MJS

Gruenewald said:


> Hehe, yeah. I've got a (slightly older) friend who knows knife fighting, as well as some sparring skills passed down from his father, passed down from his father, etc. (combined with some real life experience, apparently). No idea what kind of skills they are but I do know that he knows enough to teach confidently. Also we're not training with live blades, so I'm not too worried about any accidents at this point in time.


 
Umm...would you be so kind as to give a bit more detail on the extent of the 'knife fighting' that you claim your friend has?



> Obviously we'd only ever move on to live blades after we've gained a considerable amount of experience, and even then we'd do everything in our power to make it as safe as possible (to a point). Also rest assured that this experience would involve the coaching of a professional (and/or constant study of videos/books on the subject). I'm not one to take on dangerous endeavors without research, that's why I'm on this forum lol.


 
Actually, I'd hold off on that until you're sure that what you're learning isn't going to get you killed.  As for the books, dvds and the like....please, dont bother.  Get some real training, from a qualified teacher and stay away from the do it yourself books.  You just said that you're not one to take on dangerous endeavors....well, it sounds like you're doing just that.


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## Gruenewald

MJS said:


> Umm...would you be so kind as to give a bit more detail on the extent of the 'knife fighting' that you claim your friend has?


Heh, I'll get back to you on that.



MJS said:


> Actually, I'd hold off on that until you're sure that what you're learning isn't going to get you killed.  As for the books, dvds and the like....please, dont bother.  Get some real training, from a qualified teacher and stay away from the do it yourself books.  You just said that you're not one to take on dangerous endeavors....well, it sounds like you're doing just that.


With wooden sticks? =) I'm probably not going to train with live blades at all, after some discussions I've had. Still, some kind of maneuvering with a live blade so that I can actually accustom myself to its weight and balance would likely be helpful.


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## Big Don

IMO, there are a couple of reasons to learn knife fighting.
1, it might come in handy someday.
2, it is fun to learn


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## Carol

Is there a POINT to learning how to knife fight?

Yes.  It goes in the other guy. 

Do it for real and hey...you might get lucky.  You might not have to explain it to a judge.  You may just have to explain it to a job interviewer that just googled your name...


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## MJS

Gruenewald said:


> Heh, I'll get back to you on that.


 
I'll be waiting. 




> With wooden sticks? =) I'm probably not going to train with live blades at all, after some discussions I've had. Still, some kind of maneuvering with a live blade so that I can actually accustom myself to its weight and balance would likely be helpful.


 
Let me clarify.  I was mainly talking about the live weapons stuff, however, even with the practice weapons, I'd still make sure that a) you're learning under a qualified teacher and b) that you're still learning something of quality.  There is alot of garbage out there thats passed off as a good tech., but would get you killed in real life.  

Out of curiosity, what is your martial arts background?


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## Brian R. VanCise

I think like MJS and everyone else that it is really important to learn knife related skills from a qualified teacher.  That is an essential element to anyones training!


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## Gruenewald

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think like MJS and everyone else that it is really important to learn knife related skills from a qualified teacher.  That is an essential element to anyones training!


You're all definitely right and I understand the dangers that may come of developing bad habits from inadequate teaching. I'm going to have a hell of a time finding an instructor in Atlantic Canada, though. That's why I was leaning towards pseudo-lessons from my friend (more practice than anything) combined with some kind of video course/book/etc.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Gruenewald said:


> You're all definitely right and I understand the dangers that may come of developing bad habits from inadequate teaching. I'm going to have a hell of a time finding an instructor in Atlantic Canada, though. That's why I was leaning towards pseudo-lessons from my friend (more practice than anything) combined with some kind of video course/book/etc.


 
The problem with video/book work is that if your base is not sufficient then you miss all the fine details.  Quite often those fine details are what is really important.  Your best bet is to save money and travel and do some private lessons when you can.  Then come home and work on the material and if you are fortunate your instructor will have books, dvds to help that process.  Still in the end you need that living in your face instructor to correct your errors!  This is the only way effective martial skills are passed on! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (See, Feel, Do)


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## MJS

Gruenewald said:


> You're all definitely right and I understand the dangers that may come of developing bad habits from inadequate teaching. I'm going to have a hell of a time finding an instructor in Atlantic Canada, though. That's why I was leaning towards pseudo-lessons from my friend (more practice than anything) combined with some kind of video course/book/etc.


 
Not sure how far you are from any of these, but IMO, it'd be well worth the drive in order to get some real training.

http://www.modernarnis.net/member/school.shtml#canada
Brian is a member on this forum too.

http://www.wmarnis.com/schools_can.htm

http://sayoc.com/?page_id=1635

I posted these links, because they're all FMA schools, and IMO, thats the place to go if you want knife work.


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## Gruenewald

MJS said:


> Not sure how far you are from any of these, but IMO, it'd be well worth the drive in order to get some real training.
> 
> http://www.modernarnis.net/member/school.shtml#canada
> Brian is a member on this forum too.
> 
> http://www.wmarnis.com/schools_can.htm
> 
> http://sayoc.com/?page_id=1635
> 
> I posted these links, because they're all FMA schools, and IMO, thats the place to go if you want knife work.


Well, Ontario is like a 20 hour drive away... Alberta and BC are literally across the country... >_>


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## MJS

Gruenewald said:


> Well, Ontario is like a 20 hour drive away... Alberta and BC are literally across the country... >_>


 
So, it sounds like theres nobody in your immediate area?  If thats the case, then my next suggestion would be to set up some time where you can make the trip and take an intensive lesson.  In other words, make a weekend trip out of it.  Set up some classes, privates, etc., work on a few specific things, go back home and drill the hell out of them.  

This, IMO, is much better than trying to figure out things from a book or dvd or from someone whos skills are not that good.


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## Gruenewald

MJS said:


> So, it sounds like theres nobody in your immediate area?  If thats the case, then my next suggestion would be to set up some time where you can make the trip and take an intensive lesson.  In other words, make a weekend trip out of it.  Set up some classes, privates, etc., work on a few specific things, go back home and drill the hell out of them.
> 
> This, IMO, is much better than trying to figure out things from a book or dvd or from someone whos skills are not that good.


I'll make an attempt at that; my best bet would probably be to bring along at least a couple of friends to split the travel costs (either by plane or car if we can get enough people to take shifts at the wheel). In any case it's going to be a while before I'm able to organize something like this, possibly up to a year.


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## MJS

Gruenewald said:


> I'll make an attempt at that; my best bet would probably be to bring along at least a couple of friends to split the travel costs (either by plane or car if we can get enough people to take shifts at the wheel). In any case it's going to be a while before I'm able to organize something like this, possibly up to a year.


 
I agree...splitting the cost would be a help.   I'm sure it'll be well worth the wait.  That way, everyone benefits from some good training.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar

Gruenewald said:


> I'll make an attempt at that; my best bet would probably be to bring along at least a couple of friends to split the travel costs (either by plane or car if we can get enough people to take shifts at the wheel). In any case it's going to be a while before I'm able to organize something like this, possibly up to a year.


 
I am far from you but I am in a very touristy area (Wash DC area) so you could make a combined trip and I'd be galde to give you a good, basic set of techniques and principles and I wont charge big name $$$.
 You can come to our regular class for free, I'll make it a knife class and then we can get in some  private work.

PM me if it's something you would consider doing.


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## lklawson

It might be cheaper to bring someone in.  If you do it right.

For instance, find a knife style that you're interested in (everything from FMA, through WMA, even Piper) and see if you can get one of the "lesser known" instructors to come visit you for a Seminar.  Maybe an assistant instructor or someone.  If you can set up a Seminar in your area and guarantee a minimum number of students you might be able to get a whole lot of quality instruction and even some potential long term training partners.  You could market to the local community and invite other martial arts schools.  Knife work is always popular and many times instructors from other schools are interested in picking up some skills here and there outside of their specific curriculum or even "sampling" the martial buffet.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Shin71

Gruenewald said:


> Umm... mind elaborating? In what kind of a situation would knife skills be useful?


 
Anywhere; you can have a knife in places where a gun is prohibited.  Having said that if you have a knife and no gun and you are accosted and you either cannot run/outrun the situation and it is a deadly force (they/he/she is armed with a melee type weapon) then having and being able to employ a blade is highly useful.

A knife, like a gun is a tool but only when used correctly and appropriately.  The tool can be used to open cans, cut rope, or cause terminal shock in someone trying to prematurely cancel your contract with life but knowing how to use it is key.


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## l_uk3y

Yes. Even if you only learn enough to see how it can move and do its damage.

You have too know how to use it before you can understand what is required to protect yourself against it. The better you know it. The more prepared your mind will be when you come against it.

Luke


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## Xael

Gruenewald said:


> Yeah, that's what I'm most interested in personally. Does anybody have a specific method or course to recommend with an emphasis on disabling moves (as well as general utility, ofcourse)?


 


Silat and the FMA's are loaded with them. With those systems you can't go wrong. You learn how to use the weapons, disarm, disable and even translate it all to empty hand forms. 

Considering how knife / shiv attacks are on the rise, I think it would be very beneficial to learn this. How serious are you about self defense? Knife / blade violence is on the rise and will always be the poor mans weapon as guns are not as easy to come by for the vagrant type. I am a firm believer in covering my ***, so I have trained to defend against blades, sticks and guns and how to use them.


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## Gruenewald

Do FMAs concentrate heavily on armed combat, or does it depend on the individual class? I certainly wouldn't mind taking up Silat (for example), but I'd prefer to focus primarily on armed defense at this point.


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## Carol

Gruenewald said:


> Do FMAs concentrate heavily on armed combat, or does it depend on the individual class? I certainly wouldn't mind taking up Silat (for example), but I'd prefer to focus primarily on armed defense at this point.



There really isn't a difference between the two.


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## bribrius

Gruenewald said:


> Hehe, yeah. I've got a (slightly older) friend who knows knife fighting, as well as some sparring skills passed down from his father, passed down from his father, etc. (combined with some real life experience, apparently). No idea what kind of skills they are but I do know that he knows enough to teach confidently. Also we're not training with live blades, so I'm not too worried about any accidents at this point in time.
> 
> Obviously we'd only ever move on to live blades after we've gained a considerable amount of experience, and even then we'd do everything in our power to make it as safe as possible (to a point). Also rest assured that this experience would involve the coaching of a professional (and/or constant study of videos/books on the subject). I'm not one to take on dangerous endeavors without research, that's why I'm on this forum lol.


use whatever you like.

i used a ice scraper for a car windshield today as a sword teaching my nine year old daughter. Basically use whatever is nearby at the time. Straw from a soft drink. Have used kitchen knives but if something is closer than the kitchen and serves the purpose........................well it doesn't even have to be a knife....I have knives but they are shoved away and usually for us it is family fun so we use whatever is around.

Not sure if i would be so quick to dismiss the friend. See what he knows first. 

Far as validity of it... My cousin was stabbed three times in a bar. He survived but going to the hospital to visit him ls all the validity i need.


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## Xael

Gruenewald said:


> Do FMAs concentrate heavily on armed combat, or does it depend on the individual class? I certainly wouldn't mind taking up Silat (for example), but I'd prefer to focus primarily on armed defense at this point.


 

There is a difference depending on instructor and system. You are just going to have to do some research and ask some instructors what they can do for you and tell them your goals etc. You would be suprised on some people's flexability with these situations.


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## sgtmac_46

Gruenewald said:


> From what I've seen around this forum is seems as though nearly everybody will try to dissuade you from getting into a knife fight, or urge you that the majority of the time a "knife fight" s more like an ambush. It seems as though the chances that somebody proficient with a knife will ever be able to use those skills effectively in a self-defense situation are slim to none.
> 
> This begs the question in my mind: aside from a purely developmental standpoint, learning to knife fight solely to improve yourself and pursue it as a hobby/goal (which knife fighting has never struck me as, due to its overtly lethal nature and how difficult it is to practice when compared with other "martial arts"), is learning to knife fight really worth it at all? Purely from a self-defense standpoint, I mean.


 
Is learning how to defend yourself against a knife important?  Do people carry knives?

Okay, if it is.......how do you learn how to DEFEND against something you don't know how to use?  The best way to learn to defend against a punch, is first learn how to THROW a punch.

The problem I have is when empty hand TMA's throw in some 'knife defense' techniques, and it's clear they don't have the slightest understanding of the actual dynamics involved with stabbing someone with a blade.

THAT is one big reason learning how to use a knife is important.  You can't defend against something you don't understand.


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## unladylikedefnse

I totally think that it is essential to learn how to fight with a knife. You never know what you might get into, when, or how...but knowing how to defend yourself with a knife is to your advantage than not knowing at all. I have been training Jeet Kune Do under Sifu Harinder Singh Sabharwal for over 4 years and think it is a great tool to know.


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## Mr Mojo Lane

One of the reasons I was thinking about getting back into Sayoc Kali was because it put such an emphasis on the knife.  Knife attacks still happen alot, and when it comes to self defense, you want to be waaay better than the other guy not just a little bit.


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## zilverkakashi

knife as weapons are common in asia


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## Zenjael

How to knife 'fight' no. Either avoid the fight or bring a gun.

Knowing what to do if a knife is pulled on you, is another thing. That is effective.

knives are frankly in my opinion the most dangerous weapon on earth. Anyone can pick one up and adequately use one.

They can be applied with any martial art, and are among the easiest weapons to conceal. And to learn to use.

The ah, one 'knife fight' I got into went along the lines of this. Two confronted me, first punched me, next thing I know there's a very visible gleam coming at me. I backed up, had a small piece of elbow knicked off, and then was able to hit the back of his hand as he was overextended and knee the base of the bottom of the wrist. I got to the knife first, confrontation was over. I was 13, they were around same age.

In my experience, knowing how to disarm a knife was life-saving. But to be honest, the technique I ended up using to disarm it was not the one I had been rotely taught.

Knife attacks are a bit like all attacks- they come when your normally least expect them. Problem is with knives, you might be against someone whos not only attacking you, but waiting for you to combatively react, then pull their concealed weapon.

I train with a knife and my real goal for being able to punch 6 times in a second is not just for the punch, but so I could lacerate the other that many times. But is that realistic? At all? No. And I'd be a sociopath if I ever employed it, even in self-defense.

I have been in simulated knife fights with fellow martial artists, marines, rangers, and Silat and escrimadors. With people who had never tactically held a knife before. No matter how good you get with knives, if someone wants to cut you and knows what they are doing, you will probably be cut very badly, or fatally.

A real knife attack isnt normally just a clumsy swing or stab or icepick. Its usually stab, then stabstabstabstabstabstab anywhere they can. And that is extremely hard to defend against, let along disarm.

Rule of thumb I was taught; If they hold the knife by the tang facing forward, that is most preferable. This means they are likely as scared of the knife as you are, which is an advantage, for anytime you place yourself in a way that the weapon may point at them, they may get confused, panic, or fumble. Your chances of giving cut are about 50%. (I'm pretty sure my teacher pulled the statistic out of his ***, but I think it was more about making a point than the numbers)

If the knife is reversed, with blade facing down, this means it is someone comfortable with the knife, and chances are trained. Your chances of being cut raise to 70%-100%.

If the blade is held in the what I call 'insano-grip' where the blade is held down, but the blade is facing toward the attacker, this means they are extremely trained, and have no fear of the knife. Additionally, there will be no way to actually block directly. I would not advise engaging anyone holding a knife, but if they are holding it this way, run.

And ah, dont forget just cause a knife has a blade, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. There is a pommel at the bottom for a reason, and if you ever do get in a confrontation like that, I'd give using the blunt part and knocking them out, than anything else.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh dear lord.... again, I'm calling garbage on this delusional tripe.


----------



## oaktree

I have been learning fma arts lately especially the atienza system.
 The atienza system practices with a holster and takes in the consideration
Of the knife being drawn. Kali is a huge eye opener for dealing with knives both using
A knife and empty handed versus a knife. We learn how to use the back of our hands and wrist
In dealing with empty hand versus knife which is very different compare to some tma that try to grab the knife hand
Or parry it with the veins exposed on the wrist.
Anyway just my experience.


----------



## Aiki Lee

Alex, that's wrong. Like 95% of it.


----------



## lklawson

Zenjael said:


> How to knife 'fight' no. Either avoid the fight or bring a gun.


Well, that kinda depends on what your training goals are.  I think you're making a lot of assumptions about training goals and environments.  As was reminded to us here a few months ago, not everyone lives somewhere in which they can legally carry, or even *OWN*, a gun.  There are, in the same vein, many places in which a knife is the preferred weapon and everyone carries one (or more).



> Knowing what to do if a knife is pulled on you, is another thing. That is effective.


Depending upon your location, environment, and training goals, *maybe*.



> knives are frankly in my opinion the most dangerous weapon on earth. Anyone can pick one up and adequately use one.
> 
> They can be applied with any martial art, and are among the easiest weapons to conceal. And to learn to use.


I think you're exaggerating, but I do agree that knives are easy  to use, easy to carry, easy to hide, and are particularly effective  against an unarmed opponent.



> Knife attacks are a bit like all attacks- they come when your normally least expect them. Problem is with knives, you might be against someone whos not only attacking you, but waiting for you to combatively react, then pull their concealed weapon.


Again, you're making assumptions which may or may not be true.  In certain environments, yes, what you are asserting here can be true.  Not so in many others, including in many places in the Developed world.  Many recorded knife attacks are by ambush.  ...which sucks mightily for the victi... er.. "defender" because, in these cases, often they don't know anything about the attack until they've been injured.



> I train with a knife and my real goal for being able to punch 6 times in a second is not just for the punch, but so I could lacerate the other that many times. But is that realistic? At all? No. And I'd be a sociopath if I ever employed it, even in self-defense.


It's unrealistic because the idea of being able to perform 6 punches with one hand in one second is unrealistic.



> I have been in simulated knife fights with fellow martial artists, marines, rangers, and Silat and escrimadors. With people who had never tactically held a knife before. No matter how good you get with knives, if someone wants to cut you and knows what they are doing, you will probably be cut very badly, or fatally.


Too many variables.  "Knows what they are doing" is a good caveat, but even untrained schlubs aren't necessarily stupid and don't always do dumb things.



> A real knife attack isnt normally just a clumsy swing or stab or icepick. Its usually stab, then stabstabstabstabstabstab anywhere they can. And that is extremely hard to defend against, let along disarm.


I've done quite a bit of research into this area. There are simply too many variables to make this sort of sweeping statement.  The only "usual" thing about knife attacks is that they include the use of a knife.  Everything else is variable.  The attack might be an icepick stab.  It might be a straight thrust.  It might be a horizontal slash.  It might be *ANYTHING* and what it ends up being is dependent upon the knife, the user, the environment, the location, you, who else is with you or the attacker, and a host of other variables.



> Rule of thumb I was taught; If they hold the knife by the tang facing forward, that is most preferable. This means they are likely as scared of the knife as you are, which is an advantage, for anytime you place yourself in a way that the weapon may point at them, they may get confused, panic, or fumble. Your chances of giving cut are about 50%. (I'm pretty sure my teacher pulled the statistic out of his ***, but I think it was more about making a point than the numbers)
> 
> If the knife is reversed, with blade facing down, this means it is someone comfortable with the knife, and chances are trained. Your chances of being cut raise to 70%-100%.
> 
> If the blade is held in the what I call 'insano-grip' where the blade is held down, but the blade is facing toward the attacker, this means they are extremely trained, and have no fear of the knife. Additionally, there will be no way to actually block directly. I would not advise engaging anyone holding a knife, but if they are holding it this way, run.


This "rule of thumb" is idiotic and wrong.  Discard it immediately.  You can tell *NOTHING* about a person's training or mindset by whether or not they hold the knife in a forward grip, an icepick grip, or an icepick grip cocked back with the point in line to you.  Nothing.



> And ah, dont forget just cause a knife has a blade, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. There is a pommel at the bottom for a reason, and if you ever do get in a confrontation like that, I'd give using the blunt part and knocking them out, than anything else.


I agree that many people forget that they can use the pommel.  However, it has special technical and tactical requirements that are different from the blade.  Close in range is one of those.  It's a lot harder to effectively use the pommel than the blade.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Oh dear lord.... again, I'm calling garbage on this delusional tripe.


I wouldn't go quite that far.  Some of what he wrote is accurate in *some instances*.

And the statement of his "rule of thumb," though idiotic and stupid, is not only time I've seen "martial arts experts" assert the same thing.  I saw it (yet again) just recently, in fact, in an article in a popular Martial Ats magazine.

Some of what he wrote, though somewhat exaggerated, can be more or less true.  Knives do make good close-in and contact weapons and can sometimes be preferable.  You've heard of the Tueler Drill, right?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Himura Kenshin said:


> Alex, that's wrong. Like 95% of it.


I wouldn't go that far.  Maybe 30% flat out wrong, 60% sometimes wrong/sometimes right/too many variables to say, and 10% more or less spot on.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Chris Parker

lklawson said:


> I wouldn't go quite that far.  Some of what he wrote is accurate in *some instances*.
> 
> And the statement of his "rule of thumb," though idiotic and stupid, is not only time I've seen "martial arts experts" assert the same thing.  I saw it (yet again) just recently, in fact, in an article in a popular Martial Ats magazine.
> 
> Some of what he wrote, though somewhat exaggerated, can be more or less true.  Knives do make good close-in and contact weapons and can sometimes be preferable.  You've heard of the Tueler Drill, right?
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Hi Kirk,

For reference, I was mainly referring to the following parts:



Zenjael said:


> The ah, one 'knife fight' I got into went along the lines of this. Two confronted me, first punched me, next thing I know there's a very visible gleam coming at me. I backed up, had a small piece of elbow knicked off, and then was able to hit the back of his hand as he was overextended and knee the base of the bottom of the wrist. I got to the knife first, confrontation was over. I was 13, they were around same age.
> 
> In my experience, knowing how to disarm a knife was life-saving. But to be honest, the technique I ended up using to disarm it was not the one I had been rotely taught.
> 
> ..........
> 
> 
> Knife attacks are a bit like all attacks- they come when your normally least expect them. Problem is with knives, you might be against someone whos not only attacking you, but waiting for you to combatively react, then pull their concealed weapon.
> 
> ..........
> 
> I train with a knife and my real goal for being able to punch 6 times in a second is not just for the punch, but so I could lacerate the other that many times. But is that realistic? At all? No. And I'd be a sociopath if I ever employed it, even in self-defense.
> 
> ..........
> 
> I have been in simulated knife fights with fellow martial artists, marines, rangers, and Silat and escrimadors. With people who had never tactically held a knife before.
> 
> ..........
> 
> Rule of thumb I was taught; If they hold the knife by the tang facing forward, that is most preferable. This means they are likely as scared of the knife as you are, which is an advantage, for anytime you place yourself in a way that the weapon may point at them, they may get confused, panic, or fumble. Your chances of giving cut are about 50%. (I'm pretty sure my teacher pulled the statistic out of his ***, but I think it was more about making a point than the numbers)
> 
> If the knife is reversed, with blade facing down, this means it is someone comfortable with the knife, and chances are trained. Your chances of being cut raise to 70%-100%.
> 
> If the blade is held in the what I call 'insano-grip' where the blade is held down, but the blade is facing toward the attacker, this means they are extremely trained, and have no fear of the knife. Additionally, there will be no way to actually block directly. I would not advise engaging anyone holding a knife, but if they are holding it this way, run.




To my mind, this fits the blatantly false claims he's made time and again, the resume bolstering, and huge disconnects with reality.


----------



## DennisBreene

As I read this, in conjunction with other discussions, videos and readings, my impression is that most of us have been poorly taught when it comes to knife defense. The techniques I've been trained in seem to require too much finesse, against unlikely techniques, with unrealistic expectations as to their effectiveness and the outcome. I have come to believe that the only reality based concept in my own training has been "expect to get cut".  The preceding discussion has only reinforced that.  I suspect that there is a lot of perpetuation of "mythological" knife defense techniques by artists who have never faced a knife and don't know how to use one themselves.  It seems to be the dirty little secret when it comes to self defense and martial arts. I am grateful that some experienced practitioners are opening up the discussion with reality based concepts.  For those of us who are interested in improving our defensive skills, it at least helps us formulate some realistic concepts about just how far off the mark the average knife defense training is.  Now if we just spent as much time in the dojang working with knowledgeable people (sprinters, high jumpers and broken field runners who can train us in escape maneuvers; I'm only being slightly hyperbolic) and more realistic scenarios, as we do learning how to do jump spinning back kicks, we might introduce some relevant training into knife defense. Or at least acknowledge that it is an area that is not adequately covered in the curriculum and stop leaving people  with a false sense of capability.


----------



## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> For reference, I was mainly referring to the following parts:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To my mind, this fits the blatantly false claims he's made time and again, the resume bolstering, and huge disconnects with reality.


Fair enough.  

Peace favour your sword (mobile)


----------



## Zenjael

Sorry if it seems exaggerated; if a knife has been pulled, than hasn't the fight been, and our survival?

If someone pulls a knife on me I am making assumptions. They either want to kill me or not. I don't put an in-between as an option. Not concerning my safety.

Knives, to me, are the deadliest weapon. Because I've found I can combine their use with virtually any movement I can do in martial arts, which tells me I should always be wary. If I can do a reverse axe-kick cleanly, followed by a reverse hook with the blade pressed against my forearm, and flip the blade to face you and begin 360 slashing in a silat based motion- there's a real problem for anyone unarmed. And that butterfly motion is easy to maintain and overwhelm anyone with.

Hell, out of stupidity I've done jump side-kicks, double front kicks with knives and katana. For the hell of it, it's doable, and I believe that any jackass holding a knife, is dangerous and potentially lethal.

I have never once been lacerated by my own knife, save for one very minor, and embaressing accident at a summer camp in my yonder youth, with a plastic serated butter knife. 

If you treat your knife like a gun, and keep the dangerous parts of it aimed apart from you, you will never receive injury.

And ah, to whoever said its not possible to do 6 punches in a second, holy crap are you in for a surprise when you meet the community who actually can. Don't ever assume the impossible in martial arts. Some people have cards up their sleeves you wouldn't believe.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh for crying out loud.... 

Life is not a movie.


----------



## Cyriacus

Okay.



Zenjael said:


> Sorry if it seems exaggerated; if a knife has been pulled, than hasn't the fight been, and our survival?
> 
> If someone pulls a knife on me I am making assumptions. They either want to kill me or not. I don't put an in-between as an option. Not concerning my safety.



Okay.



> Knives, to me, are the deadliest weapon.



Okay.



> Because I've found I can combine their use with virtually any movement I can do in martial arts, which tells me I should always be wary.









 (Thanks google image search)



> If I can do a reverse axe-kick cleanly, followed by a reverse hook with the blade pressed against my forearm, and flip the blade to face you and begin 360 slashing in a silat based motion- there's a real problem for anyone unarmed. And that butterfly motion is easy to maintain and overwhelm anyone with.








 (Thanks, google image search)



> Hell, out of stupidity I've done jump side-kicks, double front kicks with knives and katana. For the hell of it, it's doable, and I believe that any jackass holding a knife, is dangerous and potentially lethal.



Doable, and a total waste of everything conceivable, from time, to effort, to your life.



> I have never once been lacerated by my own knife, save for one very minor, and embaressing accident at a summer camp in my yonder youth, with a plastic serated butter knife.



Okay.



> If you treat your knife like a gun, and keep the dangerous parts of it aimed apart from you, you will never receive injury.



Okay.



> And ah, to whoever said its not possible to do 6 punches in a second, holy crap are you in for a surprise when you meet the community who actually can. Don't ever assume the impossible in martial arts. Some people have cards up their sleeves you wouldn't believe.



Yeah, except just about anyone can throw six punches per second, give or take 1-2. There is no 'community that can', anyone can do it. The punches are gonna be rubbish, but theyll do fine. Your body being dosed up on chemicals helps a bunch.



> How to knife 'fight' no. Either avoid the fight or bring a gun.



Neither of which are remotely useful techniques in this case.



> Knowing what to do if a knife is pulled on you, is another thing. That is effective.



Okay.



> They can be applied with any martial art, and are among the easiest weapons to conceal. And to learn to use.



No. You can hide boots in plain sight. Then theres sap gloves, kubotans, rings, cord worn as a necklace... The list goes on.



> The ah, one 'knife fight' I got into went along the lines of this. Two confronted me, first punched me, next thing I know there's a very visible gleam coming at me. I backed up, had a small piece of elbow knicked off, and then was able to hit the back of his hand as he was overextended and knee the base of the bottom of the wrist. I got to the knife first, confrontation was over. I was 13, they were around same age.
> 
> In my experience, knowing how to disarm a knife was life-saving. But to be honest, the technique I ended up using to disarm it was not the one I had been rotely taught.
> 
> Knife attacks are a bit like all attacks- they come when your normally least expect them. Problem is with knives, you might be against someone whos not only attacking you, but waiting for you to combatively react, then pull their concealed weapon.
> 
> I train with a knife and my real goal for being able to punch 6 times in a second is not just for the punch, but so I could lacerate the other that many times. But is that realistic? At all? No. And I'd be a sociopath if I ever employed it, even in self-defense.



That hardly sounded like an attack, at all. Those guys sucked. Ive seen ten year olds attack with more ferocity than what youre describing.



> "I have been in simulated knife fights with fellow martial artists, marines, rangers, and Silat and escrimadors. With people who had never tactically held a knife before. No matter how good you get with knives, if someone wants to cut you and knows what they are doing, you will probably be cut very badly, or fatally."


 

Okay.




> "A real knife attack isnt normally just a clumsy swing or stab or icepick. Its usually stab, then stabstabstabstabstabstab anywhere they can. And that is extremely hard to defend against, let along disarm."


 

Okay.




> "Rule of thumb I was taught; If they hold the knife by the tang facing forward, that is most preferable. This means they are likely as scared of the knife as you are, which is an advantage, for anytime you place yourself in a way that the weapon may point at them, they may get confused, panic, or fumble. Your chances of giving cut are about 50%. (I'm pretty sure my teacher pulled the statistic out of his ***, but I think it was more about making a point than the numbers)"










 (Thanks google image search)




> If the knife is reversed, with blade facing down, this means it is someone comfortable with the knife, and chances are trained. Your chances of being cut raise to 70%-100%.



It means they grabbed their knife, and thats how it was in their hand when they grabbed it. Nothing more.



> "If the blade is held in the what I call 'insano-grip' where the blade is held down, but the blade is facing toward the attacker, this means they are extremely trained, and have no fear of the knife. Additionally, there will be no way to actually block directly. I would not advise engaging anyone holding a knife, but if they are holding it this way, run."




It means they grabbed their knife, and thats how it was in their hand when they grabbed it. Nothing more.



> And ah, dont forget just cause a knife has a blade, doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. There is a pommel at the bottom for a reason, and if you ever do get in a confrontation like that, I'd give using the blunt part and knocking them out, than anything else.



Riiight. Except, the law doesnt care, and you need to get the thing out first.


----------



## lklawson

Zenjael said:


> And ah, to whoever said its not possible to do 6 punches in a second, holy crap are you in for a surprise when you meet the community who actually can. Don't ever assume the impossible in martial arts. Some people have cards up their sleeves you wouldn't believe.


You will have to pardon me if I find zero martial value in parlor tricks. 

Six punches per second are less than useless as punches and slightly less usefull than one single thrust when holding a knife.  I would LOVE for someone to try that speed punching idiocy on me while boxing and I would positively be ecstatic for some fool to try six super speed thrusts on me in knife fighting. I would laugh hysterically ...you know, after I killed him for trying such an unsound and stupid technique. 

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


----------



## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Oh for crying out loud....
> 
> Life is not a movie.


It reads like Dux autobiography.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


----------



## Chris Parker

See what I was saying, Kirk...?

Oh, and Alex? Know how many punches I throw in a second? One. You know why....?


----------



## grumpywolfman

Chris Parker said:


> Oh for crying out loud....
> 
> Life is not a movie.



Ok, smart guy. I see that the only way to end this argument is like REAL MEN DO: Broadway musical style, with light sabers, fancy dance moves to simulate a real fight, and the drama, lots of drama.

[video=youtube_share;9iauidn0pQ4]http://youtu.be/9iauidn0pQ4[/video]


----------



## grumpywolfman

:hmm:   I'm starting to wonder if should rethink my decision of incorporating Dandelions in my daily diet?


----------



## Aiki Lee

lklawson said:


> I wouldn't go that far.  Maybe 30% flat out wrong, 60% sometimes wrong/sometimes right/too many variables to say, and 10% more or less spot on.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


More like 90% then, it seems the 60% you give him is stuff he is broadly applying. Thus it's wrong to me. I agree with your responses to him though and see where you are coming from.


----------



## lklawson

Himura Kenshin said:


> More like 90% then, it seems the 60% you give him is stuff he is broadly applying. Thus it's wrong to me. I agree with your responses to him though and see where you are coming from.


Fair enough.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## cloud dancing

left for 5 -1/2 days to die/Vietnam 69/after land mine blast. other serious **** PI 83
I always carry 2 or more knives. practise daily.adddicted to the blade. avoid ifights. but feels good to know/I have defense vs multiples or single attackers. never go outside w/o blade.
one straight razor folder and belt knife.also two pens. anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong,


----------



## Jenna

cloud dancing said:


> left for 5 -1/2 days to die/Vietnam 69/after land mine blast. other serious **** PI 83
> I always carry 2 or more knives. practise daily.adddicted to the blade. avoid ifights. but feels good to know/I have defense vs multiples or single attackers. never go outside w/o blade.
> one straight razor folder and belt knife.also two pens. anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong,


If you have access to either, when would you choose a pen over a blade? thank you x


----------



## Danny T

Jenna said:


> If you have access to either, when would you choose a pen over a blade? thank you x


What is the situation, Jenna?


----------



## lklawson

Danny T said:


> What is the situation, Jenna?


I propose two different events

I want to take a few notes
I want to divide a piece of rope and a sandwich
 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Buka

_"Is there a point to learning how to knife fight?"_

Yes. The training is very cutting edge.


----------



## Jenna

Danny T said:


> What is the situation, Jenna?


Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong", I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx


----------



## Danny T

Jenna said:


> Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong", I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx


The situation will always depict that action. (or should). Situational awareness and an egress plan.
For normal everyday I carry weapons... multiple... knives, tactical flashlight, firearm, flexible, tactical pen, common sense and good verbal skills. When flying I am down to a walking stick, tactical flashlight, my belt, a tactical pen, a wooden pencil, a 4 foot zip tie, my common sense and good verbal skills. 
I have a force continuum that I have trained and practice using different scenarios.
Every situation is different and the response will be different. I do not go about looking for an excuse use them. I am prepared to leave and if unable to leave the situation I am prepared to defend myself and my love ones to the best of my ability. 

Now my story is I'm a somewhat eccentric yet caring grandfather with some odd habits. And I'm sticking to that.


----------



## lklawson

Jenna said:


> Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong",


Of *course* you can use an improvised weapon as a weapon.  People have been doing it since forever.  The thing is, a knife is a tool which has been optimized for cutting and, usually, stabbing; two things which also tend to optimize it for use as a weapon (defense or offense).  A pen, on the other hand, is a tool which has been optimized for writing.  The vast majority of pens are only so-so at stabbing, and often just plain bad at it, and no pen that I've ever seen does a particularly good job at cutting.  This makes it a less ideal choice for a self defense weapon when compared to an actual knife.  Pens have the advantage of not looking like a weapon (because, you know, they're not) which can provide the element of surprise and they can be carried in places where knives are forbidden.  Having a poor weapon is generally better than having no weapon at all.  But a modern pen is simply never going to be as effective a tool at performing the jobs of a knife as an actual knife is.  ...ever.



> I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx


When I didn't have a knife, gun, cane, club, slungshot, staff, sword, or some other tool which is actually a weapon.

A pen is better than bare hands, but only just so.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Rich Parsons

Jenna said:


> Danny in London I could only carry a non-locking knife w/less than 3in blade, every one has a pen though.. I am wondering for some one like that member cloud dancing who can carry both and seems to know how to use both defensively ie. "anyone saying I caint disable.or kill with simple bic pen is wrong", I wonder under what defensive circumstances would a pen be what you would reach for? Jx




Jenna,

You are out for dinner and a drink. The young males a table next to you or over a couple start to get loud. No big deal. No they start to get pushy with other people around them. One can reach for the pen and have it in hand to draw pictures on your napkin, and if they attack you well it is just in your hand. Where as if you clear the blade in the restaurant, many will freak out and believe you have escalated the level of violence potential.


----------



## geezer

Rich Parsons said:


> Jenna,
> 
> You are out for dinner and a drink. The young males a table next to you or over a couple start to get loud. No big deal. No they start to get pushy with other people around them. One can reach for the pen and have it in hand to draw pictures on your napkin, and if they attack you well it is just in your hand. Where as if you clear the blade in the restaurant, many will freak out and believe you have escalated the level of violence potential.



You're in a restaurant eating dinner? Seems like you might just as well have a steak knife in your hand. Or a heavy glass, a mug, bottle of wine... good lord, if you need weapons the only place better than the table is the kitchen!


----------



## Jenna

Since the thread had gone quiet 2013 I am not so worried about derailing it to ask you a bit more about the pen if it is ok?

@Danny T that is quite an arsenal for your edc.. I hope there is not cause for you to have to use it in future and but you sound like the right man to ask.. you had referred to a force continuum which is perfectly clear can you explain a bit more.. is that continuum flexible or situationally dependent or would the pen *always* be less preferred than say the knife if it came to protecting your self or kids or grand kids (you have grand kids really? ) Thank you Jx

And @lklawson, Kirk I appreciate your insights.. like you are saying the pen can have the element of surprise –I guess provided it is not an obvious tac pen- and is there where a knife is forbidden.. what I want to ask you is in a situation where you believe you may have to use a weapon and have only a pen to hand would you feel capable with that improvised weapon or compromised for lacking the efficiency of your blade? Like is the pen enough or do you feel ill equipped with it or would it really just depend on how and what you had trained? Hope this make some sense.. Thank you again Jx

And @Rich Parsons, Rich! It is great to have your thoughts, yes you are exactly right, this is what I mean about being seen to have caused a problem because I had a weapon rather than some thing I improvised.. this did happen before where I had carried a blade (only for appearance since I have no skill with it) and had been put in a situation where I had to take it out though I did not use it or even know what I intended to do except scare them.. they ended up calling the Met and I got stopped and cautioned before I had even reached home and so I do not want to be in a situation where it is like *I* am the bad guy even though I am minding my business.. hence the pen.. it is just a pen I know how to use it as yawara/kubotan and so now nobody can say nothing.. so my question is to you and the others who do use and can use blades is, would there be any occasion where you could equally deploy a pen or a blade where you would actually choose the pen.. why am I asking? because it could be that I am deluding my self about being able to defend my self with a dumb pen or improvised key whip or whatever.. hope I am making sense.. thank you Jx


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## Rich Parsons

geezer said:


> You're in a restaurant eating dinner? Seems like you might just as well have a steak knife in your hand. Or a heavy glass, a mug, bottle of wine... good lord, if you need weapons the only place better than the table is the kitchen!


 Geezer, the Steak knife had less of an edge than the butter knife. Also pulling out two pens and drawing pictures and tapping them like drum sticks was much better than clearing a blade of my own.  Also it was a Wednesday before Thanksgiving so everything was plastic (yuck) and they served my beer in a glass only after I refused to accept a craft beer in plastic. 

There were all the fresh new 21 year olds all looking to show the world they came back from college and could legally drink. 

I tried telling the others that it was not a good night. They learned the hard way that night.

Now, back to my situation. While tapping the beat of the music, everyone at the table stopped and got quiet and then one finally asked me who was going to die. I then used it as a learning experience for them to look around and pick out what I was concerned about. 

In the end I explained to really drunk guy with his partially drunk friend that I would stand up and he would knock me out and I would have a seizure and while I was trashing around I would break his ankles and send him to the hospital. 
The drunk guy yelled YEAH! and teh semi drunk guy sobered some and looked at me and dragged his friend away.


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## lklawson

Jenna said:


> And @lklawson, Kirk I appreciate your insights.. like you are saying the pen can have the element of surprise –I guess provided it is not an obvious tac pen- and is there where a knife is forbidden.. what I want to ask you is in a situation where you believe you may have to use a weapon and have only a pen to hand would you feel capable with that improvised weapon or compromised for lacking the efficiency of your blade? Like is the pen enough or do you feel ill equipped with it or would it really just depend on how and what you had trained?


Honestly?  Both.  A pen is a sucky weapon but it beats no weapon at all.  I know that's not the answer you were looking for, but it's the truth.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Rich Parsons

> And @Rich Parsons, Rich! It is great to have your thoughts, yes you are exactly right, this is what I mean about being seen to have caused a problem because I had a weapon rather than some thing I improvised.. this did happen before where I had carried a blade (only for appearance since I have no skill with it) and had been put in a situation where I had to take it out though I did not use it or even know what I intended to do except scare them.. they ended up calling the Met and I got stopped and cautioned before I had even reached home and so I do not want to be in a situation where it is like *I* am the bad guy even though I am minding my business.. hence the pen.. it is just a pen I know how to use it as yawara/kubotan and so now nobody can say nothing.. so my question is to you and the others who do use and can use blades is, would there be any occasion where you could equally deploy a pen or a blade where you would actually choose the pen.. why am I asking? because it could be that I am deluding my self about being able to defend my self with a dumb pen or improvised key whip or whatever.. hope I am making sense.. thank you Jx



I like the pens as I can deploy earlier and not be a threat.

And to be honest, when others have deployed a knife and rushed me and I had a knife on me, I was too busy avoiding the blade and empty hand counter attacks to deploy the knife at that time.

If I needed a weapon I would prefer the one for the situation.

I like pens, and folder knives. The Folder I carry is used more for boxes and packages and work related tasks.

Not sure how to answer as I have not had the choice or option where I had not already deployed the not threat first.

** Edit **
I agree a Pen is less of a weapon than a blade.


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## Danny T

Jenna said:


> @Danny T that is quite an arsenal for your edc.. I hope there is not cause for you to have to use it in future and but you sound like the right man to ask.. you had referred to a force continuum which is perfectly clear can you explain a bit more.. is that continuum flexible or situationally dependent or would the pen *always* be less preferred than say the knife if it came to protecting your self or kids or grand kids (you have grand kids really? ) Thank you Jx



Just being prepared.
I also have a fire extinguisher, a tool kit, and an emergency first aid kit in my vehicles and in my home I have backup methods for fire if it were to happen. Not wanting to have to use them either…

For me it is about being aware of the environment, what is happening, and being prepared. I would much rather leave a dangerous situation if possible, communicate/talk my way out or allowing the other to have enough sense of up-man ship to save face than fight but that the other also knows I will defend myself if it comes to that.

Now as to which tool to use:
It’s not that the pen is ‘less preferred’ but what is best for the situation. If all I have is a knife then everything begins to be something to be cut or stab when that may not be required at all.

Would a simple *step back or a push away* always be less preferred than punch or a knife? It will always depend upon the situation. Not all self-defense actions are life threatening nor require deadly force.


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## drop bear

Jenna said:


> And @lklawson, Kirk I appreciate your insights.. like you are saying the pen can have the element of surprise –I guess provided it is not an obvious tac pen- and is there where a knife is forbidden.. what I want to ask you is in a situation where you believe you may have to use a weapon and have only a pen to hand would you feel capable with that improvised weapon or compromised for lacking the efficiency of your blade? Like is the pen enough or do you feel ill equipped with it or would it really just depend on how and what you had trained? Hope this make some sense.. Thank you again Jx



Anyone I have considered using a pen on. I would really need a baseball bat for.

I mean you don't get pushed at the bus stop and go on a pen stabbing frenzy. You are going to do this thing if they are either huge or have a weapon.

And then you look at your advantages and realise that your advantage is you are holding a pen.

And then you start looking for an exit not a fight.


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## Sapphire

I would like to say that training with a knife isn't necessary for everyone, but training on understanding the deadliness and the painfulness of a knife attack is very necessary.

A gun against a knife is only useful from 21 feet and beyond.  Any less than that, and you risk accuracy of your shot, or safety of your person.  Either you don't put the bullets into the knife wielding assailant, or you don't get out of the way of the blade in time.  And a knife can do a lot of damage even with one cut, because blood belongs inside your body, and even a dull knifes cut will cause all sorts of blood loss, which will severely impair ones fighting prowess and in not much time.  Also, if anyone has been cut with a SHARP knife, they know full well that a dull knife hurts much more, and pain = shock = losing the fight.  I have heard that expert knife fighters will dull their blade or even allow their blade to slightly rust to cause more pain in a fight, rather than just cause blood loss.

What any person who thinks about their ability to defend themselves should know is _just how serious even a glancing knife wound can be_.  I'm not talking infection and gangrene, I'm talking about the pain of a knife wound or the sudden feeling of dizziness, nausea and confusion that comes from blood loss and/or a punctured organ.  Have you ever donated blood and become dehydrated?  Have you ever gone hiking and gotten heatstroke?  Or perhaps suffered a mild concussion?  Now imagine that when someone is trying to take your life.  I can't stress how dangerous a knife can be, but I know some people have already pointed that out, which is why I want to say this:

Nobody needs to learn how to wield a knife, _but everyone needs to practice perceiving a threat, and how to avoid a knife that's drawn.  And the only way to truly instill that into ones mind is to understand how severe a knife wound can get in only 60 seconds time.  _I strongly recommend everyone to do the marker lesson.  Buy some cheap markers and wear some old shirts you don't mind getting drawn on.  Have one person wield the marker like a knife, and have one person defend themselves.  Treat EVERY SPOT ON THE UNARMED PERSONS SHIRT, ARM OR LEG AS A DEADLY KNIFE WOUND.  A knife wound that requires a blood transfusion and stitches, asap.  THAT is what I personally think is very important for people to know, even if they never study martial arts once in their life.


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## Tgace

Sapphire said:


> A gun against a knife is only useful from 21 feet and beyond.  Any less than that, and you risk accuracy of your shot, or safety of your person.  Either you don't put the bullets into the knife wielding assailant, or you don't get out of the way of the blade in time.  And a knife can do a lot of damage even with one cut, because blood belongs inside your body, and even a dull knifes cut will cause all sorts of blood loss, which will severely impair ones fighting prowess and in not much time.  Also, if anyone has been cut with a SHARP knife, they know full well that a dull knife hurts much more, and pain = shock = losing the fight.  I have heard that expert knife fighters will dull their blade or even allow their blade to slightly rust to cause more pain in a fight, rather than just cause blood loss.



The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.

For more info:

TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace


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## Buka

Tgace said:


> The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.
> 
> For more info:
> 
> TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace



Thank you, my friend, this is altar I was raised on. I hope everyone reads this, thinks about it and explores it more, and I hope they click on every link and do the same.


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## Tgace

Buka said:


> Thank you, my friend, this is altar I was raised on. I hope everyone reads this, thinks about it and explores it more, and I hope they click on every link and do the same.


Thing is....too many people want simple tropes to base their philosophy on.

When there's a meme in play like "the knife is superior because it never needs reloading"....its difficult to get people off of it. Far more difficult than seriously studying what the Tueller Drill is about.

Any weapons " superiority " is more about the training, tactics and mindset of the person holding it than it is about the weapon itself.

Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


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## Sapphire

Tgace said:


> The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.
> 
> For more info:
> 
> TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace



Aw, dang, now I have to write an essay for you.  Lol, so be it.   I agree with the majority of what's said in this link, though.



Tgace said:


> Thing is....too many people want simple tropes to base their philosophy on.
> 
> When there's a meme in play like "the knife is superior because it never needs reloading"....its difficult to get people off of it. Far more difficult than seriously studying what the Tueller Drill is about.
> 
> Any weapons " superiority " is more about the training, tactics and mindset of the person holding it than it is about the weapon itself.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk



In my CMA school we discussed how "fast" the tiger fork is, compared to how "fast" the spear is, and how "fast" any other weapon is.  Fact is the weapon is only as fast as their user, so I definitely agree, it's all about training, tactics, and mindset.


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## Danny T

Tgace said:


> Thing is....too many people want simple tropes to base their philosophy on.
> 
> When there's a meme in play like "the knife is superior because it never needs reloading"....its difficult to get people off of it. Far more difficult than seriously studying what the Tueller Drill is about.
> 
> Any weapons " superiority " is more about the training, tactics and mindset of the person holding it than it is about the weapon itself.
> 
> Sent from my XT1080 using Tapatalk


What is applicable and when is it applicable.
Awareness, a honest understanding of the possible dangers and how to appropriately deal with them. Practicing, fun scenario playing, positive reinforcement of good decisions and actions, aggressive scenario playing again with positive rewards when appropriate actions are performed. Make it fun then make it intense! One will then be better able to recognize the threat, know the potential proper actions, and respond appropriately.


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## lklawson

Tgace said:


> The Tueller Drill (AKA 21 Foot Rule) is kind of misunderstood by MANY martial arts instructors and cops. A gun is a weapon like many others with advantages/disadvantages at various ranges. There are effective ways to use a gun at CQB ranges if you are trained in them and know when to use them.
> 
> For more info:
> 
> TDA Training Of Knives Guns and 21 feet guest post by tgace


Tueller was late to the paty by about 100 years. Bowie Knife expert, Louis J. Ohnimus gave the distance at 20 feet way back in 1890! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Six Inches of Steel Bowie knife fighting instruction by Louis Juan Ohnimus 1890 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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