# Taekwondo Etiquette



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

Hey everyone. Just wanted to hear some opinions and get some feedback.  I feel that etiquette is a very important part of the art that we practice.  It helps younger kids grow and mature into respecting adults and also keeps order in the martial arts circle that we often find ourselves.  Not all of us that practice this art take it as seriously as others.  I like to think that it is more than just an activity that we attend a couple times a week.  It has been explained that Do in Taekwondo means "the art or way," meaning way of life.  I believe that etiquette is a vital part of this and that (in my opinion) strict etiquette should be enforced.  The military was a vital part of Taekwondo's birth and I believe that this foundation should still be clearly visible in the way it is practiced today.  I know that not all of people who practice Taekwondo are in the military and that not all military etiquette needs to be applied, but non the less shouldn't it be a part of the backbone in which we conduct ourselves in the Dojang, while dining, while sitting and talking, or anywhere we would find ourselves in the company of other students and instructors? In this thread I would like to know what you think. Can you list some forms of etiquette that would help open my and other readers eyes into the proper way of conducting ourselves.  I have been practicing Taekwondo for some time now, so I do know of a lot of ways to follow good etiquette but maybe I have not been placed in a situation that someone else has. Also when replying if you could list the style of TKD that you are talking about or practice, it could help as well.

Thanks for your help!


----------



## andyjeffries (Sep 27, 2013)

Wow, OK.  As a tip, could you add some new lines in to your posts.  That's one LOOOONG paragraph, which makes it much harder to read.

In terms of etiquette, two we've focussed on recently in class are:

1) Passing things to seniors with two hands or one hand under the elbow/on the sleeve.

2) Bowing with your eyes down, not looking up at your opponent/partner.

We do Kukkiwon Taekwondo.


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

Thanks for the tip. I will try to use that technique from now on.

Number 2 is interesting because I was always taught that a bow in Taekwondo was supposed to be 15 degrees in depth and TO maintain eye contact.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 27, 2013)

Sounds like you may have lineage to or thru the USTF. From an ITF perspective the bow is 15 degrees and you do look. 

Various items, no particular order involving seniors. 

Junior bows first and does not rise before the senior. 
Shake hands using two hands or left hand under right elbow. 
Seniors addressed by title or Sir, or Mam. 
When eating, wait for Seniors to Start first and in groups Seniors go first. 
Offer to carry things for seniors except personal items like a briefcase or purse. 
Senior General walks at head of group unless host needs to lead to a location Senior is not familiar with and then guide may enter first to call group to attention. 
When there are toasts, the rim of a Junior's galss is below the rim of any Seniors, (Fun with a group of several of various ranks) 
Do not face a senior while adjusting uniform or personal grooming (Scratching, wiping sweat)  in class. 
If very high rank enters room come to attention and face senior (exceptions apply) 
When driving Seniors various seating arrangements apply depending on how many and type of vehicle. 
When asking questions in class Come to attention - Raise right hand with left hand at right elbow, wait to be recognized bow and address Senio as appropriate before asking. When question is answered Say "Thank You Sir or MAm from attention stance, bow, and return to appropriate position. 
Generaly do not turn back on Senior in formal settings until reasoneable distance away - Exceptions apply.


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sounds like you may have lineage to or thru the USTF. From an ITF perspective the bow is 15 degrees and you do look.
> 
> Various items, no particular order involving seniors.
> 
> ...



Sir,  you are correct in my lineage.  My instructor has made sure to fill us in on all of the things that you have mentioned.  Thank you very much for your input.  

I have recently been thinking about the title to this thread and how to make myself better and help emphasize the importance of this to lower ranks.  To tell you the truth, sir, (if you are who I think you are, just because on the internet you can never be too sure) I noticed that you post here quite often and was hoping that you would have some input on this subject.

I am wanting to make sure that I am crossing my T's and dotting my I's.  I am sure that I can ask my instructors these things and they would be more than happy to answer, and I have.  I just thought it would be an interesting thread to see what other peoples view points are.  I hope that I will not cross any lines that I should not and that you would correct me if I do.

Again, Thank you sir


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 27, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> .  To tell you the truth, sir, (if you are who I think you are, just because on the internet you can never be too sure) I noticed that you post here quite often and was hoping that you would have some input on this subject.



Well, Sir (or Mam?),  I post under my real name. If you have any doubts as to who i am you could always send me a private message. You could also share your lineage if you feel so inclined to do so privately. I post under my real name. I know there are some others out there with the same name (In fact a funny story or two  about that) but none with the same name that I know of with my TKD or MA background.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Sep 27, 2013)

Somethings I can think of:

Bowing, Juniors bow first and seniors bow in return and always maintaining eye contact when bowing (in keeping with never take your eyes off your opponent). When doing something with a partner both bow at the same time and at the end of the exercise, before changing partners, bow and both people say "thank you" loudly. When a black belt enters the dojang for the first time the most senior belt below them claps the class to attention and announces the black belt and the class bows. When they enter the dojang for the first time at the beginning of class students are required to bow to those senior to them in order of decreasing rank before they do anything else, but only to black belts. At the end of class everyone turns to adjust uniforms, then turn to bow to flags and then finally turn to bow the instructor.

Always turn away from partner to adjust uniforms and such.

When in two lines and partners are changed always walk behind the other students.

Students offer to carry things for the instructors.

Only in rare cases do instructors hold boards.

Instructors are always in full uniform in class, no matter how hot or cold but students can wear T shirt when it is very hot but it must be either official club merchandise (not compulsory to buy or anything) or a plain black or white shirt. No jewelry or watches are permitted except for things like medic alert bracelets, earrings, wedding rings (mainly a safety thing).

Always introduce yourself to new students by shaking hands after bowing when doing things with partners.

Always know your partner's name as you may get pushups if you do not know when asked.

Never refer to an instructor as mate, buddy, pal etc, must always show respect. One 1st Kup student said to Master Rhee at a grading "gudday mate hows it going", I have not seen him since.

No swearing in class as this is not a pub.

My style is Rhee Tae Kwon Do in Australia.


----------



## granfire (Sep 27, 2013)

sheesh, what slackers we were....

Most of our etiquette remained on the floor:

Ask for permission to enter the floor, bow to the front (flag, instructor, etc)
Answer up when spoken to, yes Sir/Ma'am, thank your partner as you bow (bow in before the exercise as well)

Higher rank and especially BBs are addressed by Mr/Mrs Last name or Sir/Ma'am, regardless of age.

Fowl language never came up, but I dare say the school would not have allowed it, and the Sabum did not invite being called 'mate' or 'buddy', that would have been way off, just from his persona...

We were pretty sharp, but at least one school out did us in correctness....

of course, off the mat conduct was also expected to be in line with the principles.


----------



## Balrog (Sep 27, 2013)

We consider ourselves a family in the school and in the organization.  When bowing, we look down because that is what family members do.  It's a sign of trust.  If you continue looking at the person you are bowing to, you are essentially saying you are my honored enemy and I don't trust you enough to take my eyes off you.

When a junior approaches a group of seniors, the junior should stop and bow to every member of the group, starting with the highest rank.  No "drive-by" bowing, where the junior keeps moving and kind of bends at the waist as he cruises by.

Formal titles all the time.  My wife and I run our school, but when we are in uniform, it's Master and Mrs. to each other.  Small kids who might not yet recognize their last name get called by Mr. or Miss Firstname.  

Courtesy and respect are easy to teach.  They flow both ways, and when the junior ranks see the senior ranks constantly exhibiting courtesy and respect to everyone, they will follow along.  The seniors should lead by example.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2013)

I'm curious...

How far out of the training hall do you carry your TKD specific etiquette?  Do you bow to your seniors when you happen to encounter each other on the street or at work?  Do you limit the meal etiquette to official dinners and the like, or do you practice it whenever you're eating?

This is coming out snarkier than I intended... but my school and my organization has never locked on rigid etiquette, especially off the training floor.  I call my instructor by his first name, and my students address me by my first name.  In some circumstances, we'll use formal titles, but it's rare.  I've eaten many meals with my teacher, and with the grandmaster, in settings ranging from formal dinners down to sitting around a campfire.  No special etiquette, other than trying not to put my foot in my mouth and making sure that they're taken care of.  But I've seen and heard of TKD students (especially) who practice and take Korean etiquette practices well outside the training hall.  When I see or hear that, I can't help but think of the guy who is so "serious" about his martial arts study that he speaks in fortune cookies and dresses like a Chinese peasant from 100 years ago.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 27, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> When I see or hear that, I can't help but think of the guy who is so "serious" about his martial arts study that he speaks in fortune cookies and dresses like a Chinese peasant from 100 years ago.  View attachment 18323


Bruce Leroy!  For the number of times I have heard about that movie, I thought it was pretty mediocre.


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> Well, Sir (or Mam?),  I post under my real name. If you have any doubts as to who i am you could always send me a private message. You could also share your lineage if you feel so inclined to do so privately. I post under my real name. I know there are some others out there with the same name (In fact a funny story or two  about that) but none with the same name that I know of with my TKD or MA background.



Sir, I just tried to send you a private message but it said that your message inbox was too full and that you had to clear some of it out before I could send it. I will save my message and try it again in a little while.


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> I'm curious...
> 
> How far out of the training hall do you carry your TKD specific etiquette?  Do you bow to your seniors when you happen to encounter each other on the street or at work?  Do you limit the meal etiquette to official dinners and the like, or do you practice it whenever you're eating?



Well we try to always carry our etiquette outside the Dojang.  I never call my instructor by his first name.  The way I see it is that there is a special relationship between instructor and student.  While I have been training with my instructor since a very young age he has helped me through life by giving advise and being there if I just need someone to talk to but there is still a line which I believe can not be crossed.

When we eat regardless of when or where and it is in the company Taekwondo practitioners we usually abide by these standards.  Now if it is with fellow students it is not always followed to the T.  There have been times when I have been in the company of a Master who tells us not to follow certain guidelines just because sometimes it is easier, or say if for some reason the Master has not gotten his food yet he/she will tell us to go ahead and eat.  I have also been in a situation where it was an informal setting and a Grandmaster walked in where were all called to attention.  I sometimes chuckle to myself as I watch other people in the restaurant and their facial expressions. 

The bottom line for me is that these people have imparted values that make me who I am today and I will do anything to make sure that they are given the respect that they deserve.  They have always been there for me, and I hope that I will always be there for them.  I consider my Instructor to be family to me but there will always be an Instructor/Student side to our relationship.



jks9199 said:


> I've eaten many meals with my teacher, and with the grandmaster, in settings ranging from formal dinners down to sitting around a campfire.  No special etiquette, other than trying not to put my foot in my mouth and making sure that they're taken care of.


 
Yes, I have also been in these situations.  As I previously stated there are times when the senior rank will tell us not to follow certain protocol, but as you said I will always make sure that their every need is attended to.



jks9199 said:


> But I've seen and heard of TKD students (especially) who practice and take Korean etiquette practices well outside the training hall.  When I see or hear that, I can't help but think of the guy who is so "serious" about his martial arts study that he speaks in fortne cookies and dresses like a Chinese peasant from 100 years ago.



Here is how I view this.  I cannot do too much for my instructors and senior ranking black belts.  If this makes me look ridiculous to some then whatever.  They have done more than anyone could ever know for me and I hope that my actions, where ever I am will honor them with the utmost respect.  I take my martial art very seriously because I believe it to be more than just something I do a couple times a week. I have heard stories of when senior instructors were still young in the art. One that that I think about often is this.  

There was a student that was told to go train with another instructor.  This instructor was told to be the best there was and the students prior instructor wanted him to learn what he could from this instructor.  One day the student got a phone call.  It was the instructor asking him to pick him up so he could go to the store to get a jug of milk.  Now here is the kicker.  The student was (I forget the exact distance) an hour or two away from where his instructor lived and the instructor was only about a block away from the store.  Could the instructor just walk to the store to get the milk himself? Probably, but he was looking to see what the student would do.  What his character was.  How far was he willing to go to learn the art.  The ending of the story? The student got into his beat up car, drove the distance and picked up the instructor for the five minute trip then went home.  Some call this silly.  I call it loyalty. 

Now the only reason I am telling you all this is just so that you have a better understanding of how I think and I hope you would not think that I am crazy.  I am not saying this to say that you all need to up your game.  I hope I am clear in this.  I Just believe that there is history and traditions that should be upheld to keep alive this art that I know we all love.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2013)

As I said, the post came out snarkier than I really intended it, and I couldn't see a way to rephrase it much better.  A lot of this is stuff that I'd classify as personal choice & local habit...  but since I'm kind of derailing things, I've started a thread in the General Martial Arts for the broader discussion.


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> As I said, the post came out snarkier than I really intended it, and I couldn't see a way to rephrase it much better.  A lot of this is stuff that I'd classify as personal choice & local habit...  but since I'm kind of derailing things, I've started a thread in the General Martial Arts for the broader discussion.



No I understand. Sometimes its hard to communicate what you are trying to say in just words on paper.  I didn't mean it as anything but trying to better explain my thoughts on the matter.

Can you tell me what the thread is called in the general martial arts section so I can read some of it?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 27, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> Sir, I just tried to send you a private message but it said that your message inbox was too full and that you had to clear some of it out before I could send it. I will save my message and try it again in a little while.



In Box emptied.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 27, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> There was a student that was told to go train with another instructor.  This instructor was told to be the best there was and the students prior instructor wanted him to learn what he could from this instructor.  One day the student got a phone call.  It was the instructor asking him to pick him up so he could go to the store to get a jug of milk.  Now here is the kicker.  The student was (I forget the exact distance) an hour or two away from where his instructor lived and the instructor was only about a block away from the store.  Could the instructor just walk to the store to get the milk himself? Probably, but he was looking to see what the student would do.  What his character was.  How far was he willing to go to learn the art.  The ending of the story? The student got into his beat up car, drove the distance and picked up the instructor for the five minute trip then went home.  Some call this silly.  I call it loyalty.
> .



I hope this is one of those stories where the point of the story is more important than whether it factulay accurate.   Says a lot for the student and a lot for the instructor as well.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 27, 2013)

I'll add one: You can't train at another school (same art or different art) without asking or mentioning it to the first school.  And you can't get KKW registered from another Master who may charge less.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> No I understand. Sometimes its hard to communicate what you are trying to say in just words on paper.  I didn't mean it as anything but trying to better explain my thoughts on the matter.
> 
> Can you tell me what the thread is called in the general martial arts section so I can read some of it?


Sorry; thought I'd put a link the post there.  Etiquette - How far do you carry training hall practices


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 27, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I hope this is one of those stories where the point of the story is more important than whether it factulay accurate.   Says a lot for the student and a lot for the instructor as well.



Yes sir.  It has been a long time since I heard the story and don't remember the exact specifics, but I think that the basic outline of the story is correct. If you know something about this story that I have either forgotten or gotten wrong, please let me know.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I'll add one: You can't train at another school (same art or different art) without asking or mentioning it to the first school.


That one's common across a lot of styles.  Personally -- I see it as courtesy.  I won't necessarily throw a student out for cross training -- but I'd like them to let me know.  Part of that's so that I know what they're up to, or potential injuries, part of it's to steer them away from ripoffs, and part of it's about whether I'm wasting my time with them.  If they're not practicing, but are chasing something else a lot harder -- that's where they ought to be.


> And you can't get KKW registered from another Master who may charge less.


This kind of bugs me...  If Master A simply collects the money to cover the KKW fees and wire costs or the like, but you've been training under Master B who charges an extra $200 for no reason but to line his pocket -- why protect him.  (Note that this is different from "master shopping" to find someone who'll file or recommend or the like because your own master isn't doing so for you.)


----------



## Jaeimseu (Sep 27, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> There was a student that was told to go train with another instructor.  This instructor was told to be the best there was and the students prior instructor wanted him to learn what he could from this instructor.  One day the student got a phone call.  It was the instructor asking him to pick him up so he could go to the store to get a jug of milk.  Now here is the kicker.  The student was (I forget the exact distance) an hour or two away from where his instructor lived and the instructor was only about a block away from the store.  Could the instructor just walk to the store to get the milk himself? Probably, but he was looking to see what the student would do.  What his character was.  How far was he willing to go to learn the art.  The ending of the story? The student got into his beat up car, drove the distance and picked up the instructor for the five minute trip then went home.  Some call this silly.  I call it loyalty.
> 
> Now the only reason I am telling you all this is just so that you have a better understanding of how I think and I hope you would not think that I am crazy.  I am not saying this to say that you all need to up your game.  I hope I am clear in this.  I Just believe that there is history and traditions that should be upheld to keep alive this art that I know we all love.



I'm all for etiquette, loyalty, and respect, but this kind of situation is incredibly stupid to me. I think it says more about the character of the instructor than it does the student.

I can remember a time when we had a guest judge come to a testing. He was probably 2 hours away by car. We didn't know until the end of the night after a 5 hour testing and a 2 hour dinner that the guest judge had one of his students drive him to the school and sit in the car until it was time to go home. When we learned the student was sitting in the car we asked the guest to bring the student in to eat with us, but the judge said that the student should continue waiting in the car.

This guest was not even a particularly high rank, no more than 5th or 6th dan. We didn't have any more contact with that judge after that night. 

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2


----------



## SJON (Sep 28, 2013)

Personally I think theres a fine line between maintaining an appropriate level of etiquette (i.e. one that serves a purpose of keeping things safe and organised, adhering to generally accepted codes of social conduct) and the paramilitary or quasi-religious approach that encourages a kind of voluntary self-debasement on the students part. The latter, in my view, is the basis for the existence of the cult mentality apparent in many MAs or MA schools, the elevation of the master/instructor/founder to the status of some kind of morally superior being, a person of great wisdom who must be revered. This is also a great way of keeping people hooked and paying fees for years, but thats another matter.

I am reminded of a quote I read once (I forget who or where) about the absurdity of seeking moral guidance from lead guitarists. Seeking moral guidance from a guy just because he is good at fighting is just as absurd. Now, thats not to say that a good MA teacher has nothing more to offer than fighting skills; far from it. But does he or she have any greater claim to respect than a school teacher (particularly primary school) or community youth worker, who does a far wider-ranging, better qualified and more intensive job in terms of socially educating a student? Kids  and often young adults  can certainly benefit from a structured, disciplined approach, but there are many, many ways of going about that that dont involve beatification of the authority figure and the annulment of the students individual identity.

As an adult (I am 40 years old and have been in the MAs since my mid-teens) I have frequently come across masters  often with no connection to my school, organisation or even my style  who are clearly very concerned with demanding respect and fawning behaviour from anyone who is not visibly of an equal or higher grade (stripes on belt, etc.). While I am all in favour of showing the kind of good manners that could be expected in any social context, and even willing to play the hierarchy game to some extent for the sake of functional class dynamics, I draw the line at the eyes downcast, yes sir, thank you for bestowing your wisdom on lowly me (wisdom which Ive probably paid for, by the way) kind of things. Naturally, Im not talking about all masters, all instructors or all styles. But it is a very common phenomenon in my experience.

Best regards,

Simon


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 28, 2013)

SJON said:


> . Now, thats not to say that a good MA teacher has nothing more to offer than fighting skills; far from it. But does he or she have any greater claim to respect than a school teacher (particularly primary school) or community youth worker, who does a far wider-ranging, better qualified and more intensive job in terms of socially educating a student? ............................................., many ways of going about that that dont involve beatification of the authority figure and the annulment of the students individual identity.
> 
> As an adult (I am 40 years old and have been in the MAs since my mid-teens) I have frequently come across masters  often with no connection to my school, organisation or even my style  who are clearly very concerned with demanding respect and fawning behaviour ..............................................................
> 
> ...



I take issue with several of the above statements. 

I for one find public school teachers do not socialy educate students and few think it to be in theit job description. Further, the setting is oftten not conducive to this.  MA schools are one of the few places many youth are required to show curtesy to others. 

I also differentiate the practice of showing courtesy and ettiquette from respect.  I explain that you can exhibit courtesy (which I tell students means to be polite and have good manners)  to people you do not know and even those you do not like. Respect is something that is earned.  Exhibiting courtesy and having good manners does not negate one's individuality.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Sep 28, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> There was a student that was told to go train with another instructor.  This instructor was told to be the best there was and the students prior instructor wanted him to learn what he could from this instructor.  One day the student got a phone call.  It was the instructor asking him to pick him up so he could go to the store to get a jug of milk.  Now here is the kicker.  The student was (I forget the exact distance) an hour or two away from where his instructor lived and the instructor was only about a block away from the store.  Could the instructor just walk to the store to get the milk himself? Probably, but he was looking to see what the student would do.  What his character was.  How far was he willing to go to learn the art.  The ending of the story? The student got into his beat up car, drove the distance and picked up the instructor for the five minute trip then went home.  Some call this silly.  I call it loyalty.



There is a difference between testing the students loyalty and taking advantage of them. Asking the student to do that was stepping way over the line and if that happened in my school he would have been chastised severely. The instructor should never have put his student in such an awkward position and should have had more respect for his students.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Sep 28, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> I can remember a time when we had a guest judge come to a testing. He was probably 2 hours away by car. We didn't know until the end of the night after a 5 hour testing and a 2 hour dinner that the guest judge had one of his students drive him to the school and sit in the car until it was time to go home. When we learned the student was sitting in the car we asked the guest to bring the student in to eat with us, but the judge said that the student should continue waiting in the car.
> 
> This guest was not even a particularly high rank, no more than 5th or 6th dan. We didn't have any more contact with that judge after that night.



I can see why you did not have any more contact with him, if I was in that situation I would have insisted the student come in and eat.


----------



## SJON (Sep 28, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I take issue with several of the above statements.
> 
> I for one find public school teachers do not socialy educate students and few think it to be in theit job description. Further, the setting is oftten not conducive to this.  MA schools are one of the few places many youth are required to show curtesy to others.
> 
> I also differentiate the practice of showing courtesy and ettiquette from respect.  I explain that you can exhibit courtesy (which I tell students means to be polite and have good manners)  to people you do not know and even those you do not like. Respect is something that is earned.  Exhibiting courtesy and having good manners does not negate one's individuality.



With due respect, Earl, are you a school teacher yourself? I am not currently, though I have been, and it certainly _is _in the job description and in the academic training. Educational sociology is a big part of education that non-teachers are generally entirely unaware of, as it's not something tangible or visible like, say, grades. In fact, the socialisation aspect of education is probably more important on the whole than the academic aspect.

That said, courtesy and respect should start in the home, although sadly this is often not the case, and parents increasingly seem to think that it is the teachers' responsability to take care of that too.

Now, if you live in a society in which neither parents nor teachers instil these values and the lot falls to MA teachers, then you've got big problems.


----------



## SJON (Sep 28, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I also differentiate the practice of showing courtesy and ettiquette from respect.  I explain that you can exhibit courtesy (which I tell students means to be polite and have good manners)  to people you do not know and even those you do not like. Respect is something that is earned.  Exhibiting courtesy and having good manners does not negate one's individuality.



To be clear, I do in fact agree with this paragraph.

My issue is with the idea that MA masters are somehow bestowed with some kind of special wisdom or moral superiority, and that some of them use this perception to instal themselves at the head of a kind of power structure.

That's not to say there aren't any MA instructors who are also good educators. On the contrary, many certainly are. But they are also in the main just guys - and often businessmen - who are good at MA, have done them for a long time and have along the way gained hands-on educational experience. They/we are certainly nothing special just because they/we teach MA's.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 28, 2013)

SJON said:


> My issue is with the idea that MA masters are somehow bestowed with some kind of special wisdom or moral superiority, and that some of them use this perception to instal themselves at the head of a kind of power structure.


Here are a couple clips that I sometimes think about.  The first explains how Mark Saltzman (from the movie Iron & Silk) was impressed by the athleticism of a kung-fu instructor, and signed up.  The 2nd clip ends with him realizing "this man has a specific athletic skill, but he is a complete a--hole".  So I try to keep the athletic side from the honour side independent in my mind.

The funniest part of the movie though was with Mark saying how a bully at school who would pick on him found out he was studying kung-fu.  Mark was worried that the bully was going to say in effect "I can still beat you up" and proceed to do so; instead the bully said something like, "You study at that school? Wow you must be tough because my brother was there and quit after 1 week because it was too hard". So the Bully never bothered him again.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 28, 2013)

SJON said:


> With due respect, Earl, are you a school teacher yourself?.........................
> That said, courtesy and respect should start in the home, although sadly this is often not the case, and parents increasingly seem to think that it is the teachers' responsability to take care of that too.
> 
> Now, if you live in a society in which neither parents nor teachers instil these values and the lot falls to MA teachers, then you've got big problems.



No I am not a school teacher.

Yes, courtesy and respect should start at home. Lots of things should happen, that doesn't mean it actualy happens. 

Yes, I agree. Many live in a society where neither parents  (assuming a aprent is present at all) nor teachers instill the values and yes, we have big problems. 

Feel free to disagree, but IMNSHO one of the reasons for violence in Cities like Chicago is the failure of society (Parents / Teachers)  to instill the values.  This does not neccesarily mean it's the fault of teachers. Sometimes they have bigger issues to deal with.


----------



## SJON (Sep 28, 2013)

Then we are pretty much in agreement on that.

But that was only a secondary observation in my first post (nº #23 of this thread). So if you take the sentence about teachers out of that post, what do you think of the rest? I mean the cult-like placing of masters on pedestals and assigning them the role of "enlightened beings", and them being only too happy to encourage this to the extent of testing students' "worthiness".

I'm not thinking of anyone in particular.

What I am wondering is how to get people to revere me as a superior linguist, have them seek moral guidance from me on the basis of my language skills, charge them regular fees for years and subject them to occasional trial periods of hand-copying my dictionaries in order to check their dedication and humility .


----------



## ustkdf (Sep 28, 2013)

Hi everyone.  This story that I posted was not as much about the instructor as much as it was about the student.  The situation took place a long time ago.  There are two sides to a Student/Instructor relationship.  The Student side is to be respectful, maintain etiquette, and always be willing to learn.  The Instructor side is to not take for granted or advantage of this.  Now there is obviously more to it than that but for the topic this will suffice.

Taekwondo is the art that I intended this thread to be about which is why I posted it in this section.  As I stated before, Do in Taekwondo means way.  There is a way to live through the art.  Now again this is just my opinion, but Taekwondo is more than just a sport.  

I have not seen a sport that has Tenants and a Student Oath.  Nor (in my experience) have I seen these at schools, musical lessons, linguistic lessons, art lessons, etc. A couple parts of the student oath are "I shall build a more peaceful world" and "I shall be a champion of freedom and justice."  This is also a part of what the instructor is supposed to teach.  Not just fundamental movements but how to live in these aspects.  Now maybe this is just me but most of the schooling that I took was based on me, and how my outcome would be.  It was about what kind of job I would be able to get or how much money I would make, not as much about changing the world for selfless reasons.  Im not saying that there weren't some teachers out there that tried to instill some of the same values it just wasn't all that prominent.



A martial art is much less about you as much as it is about what you can do for the world.  Defending people, standing up for what is right, teaching people how to treat others, instilling self discipline.  This is why I believe that Taekwondo is more than just a sport.  It is more of a way of life.  Etiquette outside the dojang helps people to not care what other people think, but to do the right thing anyway no matter how foolish they look.  

I don't think an Instructor should take advantage of a student in any situation.  I think the student should already want to do that for their instructor just like I think that you should give and not take in a world where there is too much selfishness. I think that a person should stand up for what is right not back down and allow wrong to rise up and win.  This world we live in needs more right because there is so much wrong in it already.  

I am not saying this to say that I am perfect.  I have made more mistakes and had to come back humbly to apologize more than a couple of times.  But it is things like that that help build character.  Something I feel is lacking in the world today.


----------



## SJON (Sep 29, 2013)

You may not remember it, as its more a factor in primary than in secondary education, and anyway its a kind of behind the scenes thing, but education and educational sociology are basically about giving the child the emotional and social skills to enable him or her to interact with other people and operate within society. This involves a set of values and conventions that may not be the stand up and recite them with hand on heart type, but are very definitely present.

Its not about changing the world for selfless reasons. Its more about preparing a child to get by in a society that will necessarily throw all kinds of adversities at him or her, and yes, give them a positive, altruistic approach to it if possible. Plus you learn a few useful concepts that carry through into later life (basic maths, language, thinking skills) and later on some specific stuff that prepares you for a career of some sort.

I would agree, though, that TKD does emphasise an explicit code of behaviour that other sports perhaps dont. Id also say that the traditional concepts of honour, respect, cooperation, humility, etc., are being lost in direct proportion to the growing emphasis on sport and competitiveness (i.e. I win, you lose). Just look at the behaviour of many competitors and coaches at major competitions.

By the way, apartment blocks have *tenants*. TKD has *TENETS*. OK?

 Once again, we seem to be shying away from the subject of putting instructors on a pedestal. Ive lost count of the times Ive heard something along the lines of Hes so wise, I feel so honoured to train under him [or meet him, or whatever], I dont know if Im worthy . That makes me think, Are you so willing to subjugate yourself in other walks of life too? And besides, arent you paying him? To me, the reciprocal master-disciple relationship is often, to one extent or another (often to a very minor extent), a rather unhealthy exploiter-exploitee thing more than a constructive instructor-student thing. The fact that _money is changing hands_ is a big giveaway.

Cheers,

Simon


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 29, 2013)

SJON said:


> Then we are pretty much in agreement on that.
> 
> But that was only a secondary observation in my first post (nº #23 of this thread). So if you take the sentence about teachers out of that post, what do you think of the rest? I mean the cult-like placing of masters on pedestals and assigning them the role of "enlightened beings", and them being only too happy to encourage this to the extent of testing students' "worthiness".
> 
> .



I think this is but one of many issues with regard to MA schools.  I have heard of students told by instructors "No, you cannot go to observe anotehr school or competition". Since I am in the USA I want to grab them and say "WAKE UP" aren't you in the USA where freedom of association is a fundamental right? 

So, that is a failing of the public to put up with that stuff.  Perhaps a reason I feel inclined to teach students and comment on forums such as this about differences between "Respect" and "Courtesy".  Although in some instances you may show  initial respect for someone you do not know because of their Rank/ Office / age.  Over time, as you get to know themrespect may evaporate, yet you may still extend the courtesy due their rank / station / age.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 29, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> I have not seen a sport that has Tenants and a Student Oath.  Nor (in my experience) have I seen these at schools, musical lessons, linguistic lessons, art lessons, etc. A couple parts of the student oath are "I shall build a more peaceful world" and "I shall be a champion of freedom and justice."  This is also a part of what the instructor is supposed to teach.  Not just fundamental movements but how to live in these aspects.  Now maybe this is just me but most of the schooling that I took was based on me, and how my outcome would be.  It was about what kind of job I would be able to get or how much money I would make, not as much about changing the world for selfless reasons.  Im not saying that there weren't some teachers out there that tried to instill some of the same values it just wasn't all that prominent.



While they may not have a written, recited mantra-like code, lots of sports have a code of ethics; we call it fair play or sportsmanship.  You don't think that wrestling teaches an "indomitable spirit?"  They just call it will or drive, or "never quit!" attitude.  How much of the emphasis of that sort of thing in TKD, especially, is really just part of marketing to kids?  Maybe some of the folks with memories that reach back further can help on that?  I get the idea from others that I know that you didn't see nearly as much of it (maybe a black belt oath, or a brief creed) until the last few decades...


----------



## SJON (Sep 29, 2013)

Good points.

I recall very few times actually reciting tenets over the last 20 years, but I do recall a strong sense of "we're doing something serious and potentially dangerous, so don't fool about with it in or outside class, do as the instructor says and respect your classmates". Anybody who didn't do this - going harder than previously agreed in sparring, for example - would quickly receive a "reminder" of why good manners should be observed when next paired with a higher grade.

There was also the indomitable spirit, as JKS said "never quit", apparent in who stuck with it and who didn't, as the training was rather tough.

I feel that the above have tended to disappear to some extent as more and more schools have become dependent on student numbers for their continued existence, whereas MA clubs used to be more often than not non-profit groups of enthusiasts.

The sportsmanship/fairplay and cooperative elements are most certainly present in other sports. Rugby is a good example of this: a tough, apparently violent sport, where you can get hurt if the rules aren't respected (and even if they are) and where teamwork is essential. I always found rugby to be a "cleaner" game than football ("soccer"), with less unsportsmanlike behaviour. In fact, I had an Irish teacher who used to say, "Rugby is an animal's sport played by gentlemen. Football (soccer) is a gentleman's sport played by animals. And Gaelic football is an animal's sport played by animals".

Anyway, getting back on track, Earl's point brings up in turn another point, that of the "loyalty" that is often demanded, e.g. not training with or even looking at (!) other masters or styles. I certainly feel personal loyalty to certain instructors in the sense that I consider them friends or feel admiration towards them, even if at times I have had disagreements with them, but the idea that I might have to seek permission to associate with another instructor or style would be laughable to me and I'm sure to them.


----------



## andyjeffries (Sep 29, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> Number 2 is interesting because I was always taught that a bow in Taekwondo was supposed to be 15 degrees in depth and TO maintain eye contact.



I'd always bowed eyes down.  My grandmaster always said "this isn't a Bruce Lee movie, ignore that rubbish".  In July I attended the Kukkiwon Foreign Taekwondo Masters Training Course (used to be called FIC).  During the course we had a lecture on etiquette and we were specifically told not to maintain eye contact, and that this is considered very rude in both Korean and Taekwondo.  The reason is that a bow is a sign of respect, friendship and trust - if you maintain eye contact it shows that you don't really trust them and it all falls apart from there.

I always tell my students that if you don't trust someone enough not to kick you in the face when you bow, don't bow to them.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 29, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> " ..................................How much of the emphasis of that sort of thing in TKD, especially, is really just part of marketing to kids?  Maybe some of the folks with memories that reach back further can help on that?  I get the idea from others that I know that you didn't see nearly as much of it (maybe a black belt oath, or a brief creed) until the last few decades...



The Tenets and Student oath long pre date (relatively) the marketing to and influx of Children. If I would have to guess the big influx did not begin until the late 1970's.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 29, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I'd always bowed eyes down.  My grandmaster always said "this isn't a Bruce Lee movie, ignore that rubbish". .



James Bond doesn't care what the GM Thinks. He kicked the guy while bowing. I think it was in man with the Golden gun.


----------



## ustkdf (Oct 1, 2013)

SJON said:


> You may not remember it, as it&#8217;s more a factor in primary than in secondary education, and anyway it&#8217;s a kind of &#8220;behind the scenes&#8221; thing, but education and educational sociology are basically about giving the child the emotional and social skills to enable him or her to interact with other people and operate within society. This involves a set of values and conventions that may not be the &#8220;stand up and recite them with hand on heart&#8221; type, but are very definitely present.




I think that we may be coming from two different educational systems and experiences.  Im not saying that you are wrong, im just saying that they were not evident in my experience.  We don't stand up and recite The TENETS and Student Oath in class either, Im just saying that they are obviously a part of Taekwondo.  As much as a front punch or side kick.



SJON said:


> It&#8217;s not about changing the world for selfless reasons. It&#8217;s more about preparing a child to get by in a society that will necessarily throw all kinds of adversities at him or her, and yes, give them a positive, altruistic approach to it if possible. Plus you learn a few useful concepts that carry through into later life (basic maths, language, thinking skills) and later on some specific stuff that prepares you for a career of some sort.




This is what I said




SJON said:


> I would agree, though, that TKD does emphasise an explicit code of behaviour that other sports perhaps don&#8217;t. I&#8217;d also say that the traditional concepts of honour, respect, cooperation, humility, etc., are being lost in direct proportion to the growing emphasis on sport and competitiveness (i.e. I win, you lose). Just look at the behaviour of many competitors and coaches at major competitions.




100% agree



SJON said:


> By the way, apartment blocks have *tenants*. TKD has *TENETS*. OK?




What is the purpose of this statement.  Im not the perfect speller and I was tired while writing this.  If you want to to joke, make sure you show you are joking. If you are trying to belittle me because I misspelled a word, do it somewhere else to someone else.  I believe I have been more that polite in all of my posts.




SJON said:


> Once again, we seem to be shying away from the subject of putting instructors on a pedestal. I&#8217;ve lost count of the times I&#8217;ve heard something along the lines of &#8220;He&#8217;s so wise, I feel so honoured to train under him [or meet him, or whatever], I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m worthy&#8221; . That makes me think, &#8220;Are you so willing to subjugate yourself in other walks of life too? And besides, aren&#8217;t you paying him?&#8221; To me, the reciprocal master-disciple relationship is often, to one extent or another (often to a very minor extent), a rather unhealthy exploiter-exploitee thing more than a constructive instructor-student thing. The fact that _money is changing hands_ is a big giveaway.




The instructors that I have do not make any money for what they do.  Or I guess I should say they make VERY little money through Taekwondo.  The money that I pay goes to insurance and rent/utilities.  So therefor money does not make a difference on how I treat them.  Now like I stated before the Instructor should not take advantage of their students.  If there is a case where a student is being taken advantage of then they should search for another instructor.  Instructors are still people and therefor fallible so just because and instructor makes a mistake does not mean they are bad instructors. 

Putting instructors on a pedestal.  If the instructor is respectable then I don't see a reason you would not want to show others that they are so.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 1, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> .....................In July I attended the Kukkiwon Foreign Taekwondo Masters Training Course (used to be called FIC).  During the course we had a lecture on etiquette and we were specifically told not to maintain eye contact, and that this is considered very rude in both Korean and Taekwondo.  ....




I know at least one Korean GM who disagreed with this as far as continuing to look while bowing.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 1, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> I know at least one Korean GM who disagreed with this as far as continuing to look while bowing.



Could you say who?  It might help to know whether this is a Kukkiwon GM or ITF GM.  It might not, but knowing who said it may help me understand if they are an outlier or if they are a staunch Kukkiwon supporter maybe the practice just differs.

It wasn't the first time I'd heard this (but it was the highest/most senior person giving a reference to it I've heard).

My reference is SON Cheon-Taek, Director of the Kukkiwon Research Institute.


----------



## SJON (Oct 1, 2013)

ustkdf said:


> This is what I said.


 
Re. My second paragraph that you quoted ("It's not about changing the world ...")
I was under the impression that you were talking about TKD. I was talking about the education system.




ustkdf said:


> What is the purpose of this statement.  Im not the perfect speller and I was tired while writing this.  If you want to to joke, make sure you show you are joking. If you are trying to belittle me because I misspelled a word, do it somewhere else to someone else.  I believe I have been more that polite in all of my posts.


 

Re. tenants/tenets

I was light-heartedly pointing out a mistake that 9 out of 10 posters seem to make. I was not trying to belittle you or be impolite. "If I'm going to joke, make sure I show I'm joking?" "Do it somewhere else?" At the risk of hurting your feelings, who do you think you are? If you take your art and its values so seriously, which I'm sure you do, and which is very commendable, then using correct terminology might be a step in the right direction.



ustkdf said:


> Putting instructors on a pedestal.  If the instructor is respectable then I don't see a reason you would not want to show others that they are so.



Two different things.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 1, 2013)

A friend of mine "liked" on Facebook a rival school where some of his friends studied.  His Master told him to "unlike" the school.  I thought that was interesting.


----------



## IcemanSK (Oct 1, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> A friend of mine "liked" on Facebook a rival school where some of his friends studied.  His Master told him to "unlike" the school.  I thought that was interesting.



That's an insecurity issue on the part of the master, disguised as an etiquette issue. Very sad, but all too common.


----------



## ustkdf (Oct 1, 2013)

SJON said:


> Re. tenants/tenets
> 
> I was light-heartedly pointing out a mistake that 9 out of 10 posters seem to make. I was not trying to belittle you or be impolite. "If I'm going to joke, make sure I show I'm joking?" "Do it somewhere else?" At the risk of hurting your feelings, who do you think you are? If you take your art and its values so seriously, which I'm sure you do, and which is very commendable, then using correct terminology might be a step in the right direction.




I apologize.  It was not the fact that you corrected me, but how you did it.


----------



## SJON (Oct 2, 2013)

No apology required.

It's sometimes said that the true meaning of a communication is how it's understood, not how it was meant, so perhaps the onus is indeed on me to make myself clearer. That, plus the "80% (or whatever) of communication is non-verbal" thing makes written conversations a tricky business sometimes.

Best regards,

Simon


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 2, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> Could you say who?  It might help to know whether this is a Kukkiwon GM or ITF GM.  It might not, but knowing who said it may help me understand if they are an outlier or if they are a staunch Kukkiwon supporter maybe the practice just differs.
> 
> It wasn't the first time I'd heard this (but it was the highest/most senior person giving a reference to it I've heard).
> 
> My reference is SON Cheon-Taek, Director of the Kukkiwon Research Institute.



From a historic perspective - 1965 Book - No mention of where you look when bowing. 
1972 book - Keep eyes focused on opponent's chest. 
1983 Book - Keep eyes focused on opponent's eyes. 
General Choi.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 6, 2013)

Since this is an active thread on TKD etiquette, I'll ask an etiquette-type question here. I was at a BB tournament today (for kids and adults) and an adult male BB competitor was practising without his shirt on, in the practice area beside the competition mats.  

Is it acceptable to practice shirtless at a tournament?  My own answer was in the mock statement I made to a friend, "My pants are really restricting my kicks" as I pretended to undo my belt and take off my pants.  What are your thoughts?


----------



## rlobrecht (Oct 6, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Is it acceptable to practice shirtless at a tournament?



In view of spectators and other competitors? Definitely not.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 6, 2013)

Yes, it was one big open area, with the practice area, competition area, and spectator area all in view of each other.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Since this is an active thread on TKD etiquette, I'll ask an etiquette-type question here. I was at a BB tournament today (for kids and adults) and an adult male BB competitor was practising without his shirt on, in the practice area beside the competition mats.
> 
> Is it acceptable to practice shirtless at a tournament?  My own answer was in the mock statement I made to a friend, "My pants are really restricting my kicks" as I pretended to undo my belt and take off my pants.  What are your thoughts?




Was this just TKD or was it an open tournament? I ask because there is a Karate form that can only be  judged propely if you can view the tension in the muscles of the arms and torso which is impossible to do if  a typical uniform top is on. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0&list=PLED3B2D2F1998039E


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 7, 2013)

It was a TKD sparring tournament for kukkiwon-registered BB's (i.e., WTF rules).  Forms were the previous day.


----------



## sopraisso (Oct 7, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> From a historic perspective - 1965 Book - No mention of where you look when bowing.
> 1972 book - Keep eyes focused on opponent's chest.
> 1983 Book - Keep eyes focused on opponent's eyes.
> General Choi.



Wow I'm very surprised by this.
Thank you for sharing the info.

Enviado de meu GT-I9300 usando Tapatalk 4


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Since this is an active thread on TKD etiquette, I'll ask an etiquette-type question here. I was at a BB tournament today (for kids and adults) and an adult male BB competitor was practising without his shirt on, in the practice area beside the competition mats.
> 
> Is it acceptable to practice shirtless at a tournament?  My own answer was in the mock statement I made to a friend, "My pants are really restricting my kicks" as I pretended to undo my belt and take off my pants.  What are your thoughts?



I think it probably depends where you are.

In the UK it would seem very usual.  In LA/California it may be considered quite a bit more normal.  Hawaii again, maybe it's OK.

I'd say if it's normally culturally acceptable, then it's fine.

For example, would you have thought it unacceptable of the guy had popped in to a small store to pick something up with no top on.  In some areas/countries, this is perfectly fine.  In others, it would be strongly frowned upon.

At the end of the day though, it's just a male upper body, it's on numerous billboards around the world and I'd say don't get stressed about...


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 7, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I think it probably depends where you are...At the end of the day though, it's just a male upper body..


Funny enough, it's in Ontario Canada, where legally women have the same rights to go topless as men.  That came out of a court case where a woman wanted to swim at the YMCA without a top, like the men.  I have only once seen a woman exercise that right though, so it is definitely not a cultural norm, regardless of the law.


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 8, 2013)

No having your **** off on the floor of competition is not what a WTF TKD tournament should be doing.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 9, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> No having your **** off on the floor of competition is not what a WTF TKD tournament should be doing.



In your opinion and in your part of the world.

There are parts of the world where pre-tournament they may well have no tops on, because it's hot as hell!


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 9, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> In your opinion and in your part of the world.
> 
> There are parts of the world where pre-tournament they may well have no tops on, because it's hot as hell!




No offense but I live in Texas 110 in the shade. It is not acceptable to be at a venue with parents and kids running around warming up with out a shirt. Yes it is my opinion but if it was at a park or outside training that is different than at a tournament, but this was a TKD event correct? If so follow the proper etiquette and keep a shirt on.


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 9, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> Yes it is my opinion but if it was at a park or outside training that is different than at a tournament, but this was a TKD event correct?


Yes, it was a regional (provincial, to be more exact) TKD tournament, WTF rules, for KKW-registered BB's. Temperature inside was about 21C / 70F.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 9, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> No offense but I live in Texas 110 in the shade. It is not acceptable to be at a venue with parents and kids running around warming up with out a shirt. Yes it is my opinion but if it was at a park or outside training that is different than at a tournament, but this was a TKD event correct? If so follow the proper etiquette and keep a shirt on.



You see, this is where I find it funny.

I could understand if you'd said "keep your dobok top on", but you seem to find any top to be appropriate.  Therefore this isn't a Taekwondo etiquette thing, this is a how you see regular etiquette, correct?

I don't understand what's so offensive about seeing a guy with no top on?  I wouldn't freak out if my kids saw someone training with no top on and I'd imagine they would take it in their stride too...

Does seeing this link freak you out ;-)


----------



## Gwai Lo Dan (Oct 9, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> I could understand if you'd said "keep your dobok top on", but you seem to find any top to be appropriate.  Therefore this isn't a Taekwondo etiquette thing, this is a how you see regular etiquette, correct?


Interesting viewpoint - we are both thinking about lack of modesty, but in different ways.  You are talking about lack of modesty in a half-nude sense.  When I saw the guy practising without the shirt, I was thinking about lack of modesty in the sense of "Look at me!".  

The traditional martial arts etiquette in terms of skill level is to self-deprecation: "I'm ok at martial arts....not great".  To me, the point of practising without a shirt at a tournament (while everyone else is wearing a shirt) is to try to draw attention to yourself, perhaps to show your opponent how confident you are. So it just seemed immodest to me in a boasting sense.


----------



## terryl965 (Oct 9, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> You see, this is where I find it funny.
> 
> I could understand if you'd said "keep your dobok top on", but you seem to find any top to be appropriate.  Therefore this isn't a Taekwondo etiquette thing, this is a how you see regular etiquette, correct?
> 
> ...



Master Jeffries no I am not freaked out by someone without a top on. I find it inapprobiate at a TKD tournament, especially from a adult BB. Sorry if we see this in a different light, guess my old age is showing.


----------



## Balrog (Oct 11, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> I'm curious...
> 
> How far out of the training hall do you carry your TKD specific etiquette?  Do you bow to your seniors when you happen to encounter each other on the street or at work?  Do you limit the meal etiquette to official dinners and the like, or do you practice it whenever you're eating?



We could start a "You can tell you've been in martial arts for too long when..." thread.  

It is second nature now to shake hands with people with my left hand under my right elbow.  Almost no one has ever noticed it.

And my cow-orkers will snicker and rag on me a little bit when we go into the conference room and I bow as I come through the door.


----------



## jks9199 (Oct 11, 2013)

Balrog said:


> And my cow-orkers will snicker and rag on me a little bit when we go into the conference room and I bow as I come through the door.



See -- to me, that's a bad habit.  You're not being aware of where you are and what's going on.  This is coming out harsher than I intend, and I'm being lazy about finding a better way to say it, so bear with me, please.  

You've developed a habit of bowing as you enter places because you bow into the training floor.  That's great; it's a physical, cognitive reminder of where you are.  I liken it to blessing myself with holy water as I enter the church.  That's great -- and makes sense that way.  It's a break from the everyday world.  But, then you carry it with you into other places...  so what other unthinking training floor practices might you bring to the regular world?  Will you bow to someone who's about to hit you?  Hand your attacker's weapon back to them after you disarm them?  I try to teach my students to be aware of and act according to the environment, and not carry habits that are appropriate to one into another.

It's funny; we see this about martial arts a lot and try to argue that it's not odd, but not too many other activities.  What would say if you had a coworker who was an avid actor who literally took a bow after every speech or presentation?  Or someone big into the SCA/Renaissance re-enacting who began to speak in Elizabethan all the time?  When I was a kid, we went to an historic site, and they had people in costume there who stayed in character.  I remember one who was amazed by the silver goose flying overhead (a jet), and pretended never to have heard of cars or tv...  (Yeah, being typical 10 to 14 year olds, we tried really hard to get him out of character!)  What would his family have thought if he came home and tried to put wood in the pot tray under the oven to heat it?


----------

