# Should a black belt be given out after only one year of training?



## Harald (May 17, 2010)

The reason I'm asking is that a motivational speaker I know of around my area supposedly got awarded his Shotokan black belt after only one year of training. Obviously, he did it to prove his points about "anything being achievable" and so on. Some would say that getting a black belt after only one year in the dojo is a great accomplishment, while others would argue that nobody can get a black belt that fast, no matter how well they perform stuff. 

Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years. I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training, while in others (like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) you're crazy good for getting one after less than five years, as most people will train for twice as long to get their black belt status.

When I was a kid in the eighties, I thought getting a black belt meant that you were a real _master_ of the art. Now I see black belt in some arts that move like beginners. 

What do you think about all this? Is a black belt that is given after only one year of training legit? Honestly, I guess asking because I'm sort of disappointed and disillusioned by all this. Isn't it a shame when something that could have been a real badge of achievement comes as cheap is it apparently does nowadays?


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## dancingalone (May 17, 2010)

I would have to know a lot more before I said no or yes.  Actual # of training hours, talent and dedication of the student, material taught, etc.

I accept that different systems and styles have different standards and requirements.  

I like the 5 year benchmark myself for my system of Okinawan goju-ryu.  I do add a bit more from outside goju, so the requirements are lengthy relatively for a shodan.  I don't think it's possible for anyone to learn to a basic proficiency everything I require in less than 5 years, but I'll never say never.


My 1st dan testing requirements
----------------------------------------------------
Demonstrate all basic stances and stance shifts
Demonstrate all hand strikes and kicks in random combinations
Demonstrate breaking power with hands (minimum 3 boards), kicks (minimum  3 boards) and in combination (minimum 4 boards in less than 5 seconds  with at least 3 techniques)

Sanchin testing:
sanchin performed 10 times in a row (usually takes 45 min to an hour)  with INTENSE shime testing 

kata:
 gekkisai dai ichi
gekkisai dai ni
saifa
gekiha
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru 

optional kata (any two from this list):
pinan yondan
pinan godan
naihanchi shodan
passai
shorin-ryu seisan

formal bunkai sets (many TKD students won't be familiar with them, but  they are essentially two man katas which teach the surface level  applications to the solo kata; this is an example video <a  href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hcCj1_x77Ms</a>  :
kihon bunkai gekkisai dai ichi
kihon bunkai  gekkisai dai ni
kihon bunkai  saifa
kihon bunkai  gekiha
kihon bunkai  seiunchin
kihon bunkai  shisochin
kihon bunkai  sanseiru 

meditation & breath control:
demonstrate proper breathing during the test and during a formal  observation period

impromtu bunkai demonstration:
at least two from each of the following kata
sanchin
gekkisai dai ichi or dai ni
saifa
seiunchin
shisochin
sanseiru

aiki/jujutsu/judo techniques done from both sides in response to  straight or round blow:
ikkyo
nikyo
sankyo
yonkyo
kotegaeshi
shihonage
iriminage
kaitenage
o goshi
o guruma
osoto gari
osoto guruma
tomoe nage
deashi harai
ippon seionage

self-defense (using movements from kata):
wrist grab
cross wrist grab
lapel grab
front choke
rear choke
bear hug
rear bear hug
prone position with someone on top
knife attacks (4)
club attacks (4)
chain attack

kobudo:
kihon-kata-no-bo
kihon-kata-no-bo
tokomine-no-kun (sho)
                    kumi bo nidan 
bo/bo kumite #1 
                    kihon-kata-no-tonfa
tokomine-no-kun (dai)
bo/bo kumite #2
hamahiga-no-tonfa (sho)
                    bo/tonfa kumite #1

jiyu kumite:
3 rounds of 1 vs. 1 
2 rounds of 2 vs. 1
1 round of 3 vs. 1
1 round vs. any brown belt or dan holder  present who wishes to test the candidate (funny how all the brown belts  are DYING to give their friend a few licks)
1 round vs. me (by now the black belt candidate should be very tired; I will be  testing primarily for spirit, endurance, and courage at this point)


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## scottie (May 17, 2010)

Harald said:


> The reason I'm asking is that a motivational speaker I know of around my area supposedly got awarded his Shotokan black belt after only one year of training. Obviously, he did it to prove his points about "anything being achievable" and so on. Some would say that getting a black belt after only one year in the dojo is a great accomplishment, while others would argue that nobody can get a black belt that fast, no matter how well they perform stuff.
> 
> Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years. I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training, while in others (like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) you're crazy good for getting one after less than five years, as most people will train for twice as long to get their black belt status.
> 
> ...


 
Althought I mostly agree with you. I think what should really be judged is not the years trained but hours and intensity of those hours. 

If one would only go to 1-3, one or one and a half hour classes a week then I would say no way, However if all this motovational Speaker has to do is train and train and train everyday for 2 or 3 Hours a day with a private instructor. It could happen. but that would be the only way that I could think of. Master status does not even mean anything anymore because of this kind of stuff.


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## MA-Caver (May 17, 2010)

scottie said:


> Although I mostly agree with you. I think what should really be judged is not the years trained but hours and intensity of those hours.
> 
> If one would only go to 1-3, one or one and a half hour classes a week then I would say no way, However if all this motivational Speaker has to do is train and train and train everyday for 2 or 3 Hours a day with a private instructor. It could happen. but that would be the only way that I could think of. Master status does not even mean anything anymore because of this kind of stuff.


Agreed. While on this board we talked about how BB's are handed out after 6 months (or even weeks) of training by McDojos and bla bla bla... Even one year would require more than 2-4 hours of training a day and a private (legitimate) instructor and the cost for THAT would be astronomical at the least. Hopefully some instructors will give a ballpark to how much a single-student private instruction would cost. I can see Tony Robbins being able to pay for it or Don Trump or even Billy Gates ... but there's the time factor involved as well. Being able to take THAT much time during the day each day for 365 days... man... you'd have to be seriously motivated and find ways not to burn out. 
And also consider this... memory and muscle retention of all the moves and techniques. Your body needs time to adapt and adjust and build up muscle memory for each technique. If the end goal was to learn everything in one year just to say "I did it!" then yeah it's do-able. But being a serious MA-ist? Is he going to continue to train? Or just have that plaque on the wall for show?


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## Maiden_Ante (May 17, 2010)

I'm very skeptical to this. Unless he'd have a lot of MA experience before, perhaps in a similar system, a developed chain of thought and a good ability to grasp the concept I'd say no. And no it is, because no matter how good the guy is, it just sounds irresponsible of his sensei to allow him to graduate to dan so soon.


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## jks9199 (May 17, 2010)

There's no real answer.  What's the black belt mean?  How much training went into it?  The Yoshinkan aikido Shinsuisei program awards a black belt after a year of training.  But that's training basically 6 to 8 hours a day, all but living in the dojo.  I know people who, in the early 60s, achieved sufficient skill in months to defeat black belts -- but that was with very intense, very dedicated, very hard, and very direct training.

Has the popular perception or meaning of a black belt been cheapened or lessened?  Sure.  Kids barely past toddlers, people who can't stand up, and the like have certainly changed the perception of what it means to be a black belt.  That's a simple fact.  And it's irreversible.  BUT -- you can control the meaning of YOUR black belt and of the black belts you train.  I've got students that aren't ready for black belt who (sadly) have better skill than more than few people who have been awarded black belts.  My teacher didn't let me test till I met his standard -- even though I had many people who wondered what the wait was about.  Maintain a high and demanding standard -- and people will come to know that YOUR students and YOUR black belts are something special.


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## MJS (May 17, 2010)

Harald said:


> The reason I'm asking is that a motivational speaker I know of around my area supposedly got awarded his Shotokan black belt after only one year of training. Obviously, he did it to prove his points about "anything being achievable" and so on. Some would say that getting a black belt after only one year in the dojo is a great accomplishment, while others would argue that nobody can get a black belt that fast, no matter how well they perform stuff.
> 
> Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years. I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training, while in others (like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) you're crazy good for getting one after less than five years, as most people will train for twice as long to get their black belt status.
> 
> ...


 
IMHO, I feel that a black belt should not be given until you've put in 5-6yrs of solid training.  Now, I'll make an exception for someone who already has prior knowledge in the arts.  For example:  If someone had already spent a good amount of time, say 4 or 5yrs in another art, and reached brown or black, then went to another style, then yes, I could possibly see that person getting their rank a bit faster.  I'll use myself as another example.  I have spent the majority of my Kenpo training, in the Parker system.  I transitioned to the Tracy system.  New school, new teacher, the katas and techs were very similar to what I did before, although there were slight differences, but nothing that really gave me a hard time.  I tested for a black belt in my new school.  The test was a toned down version of a regular BB test, as my teacher knew of my past training.  I would take 1 private lesson with him a week, and attend 1-2 classes a week, and reached the BB level in about 1 1/2-2 yrs.  

Every art will be different, and those that give it away in a short time and give it to young kids, are usually the ones that're laughed at.  What I find interesting, is that you could have someone train in an art, and complain that it is taking too long, yet you look at something like BJJ and it takes much longer than your average school.  Go figure.

IMO, I think that people get way to wraped up with the belts.  The belt isn't going to help you when your *** is on the line.  Its going to be the skills that you have learned, your knowledge and understanding of the material.


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## Carol (May 17, 2010)

The speaker earned his black belt to prove a point...OK, but...seriously, how many of us train to prove points? 

Anyone?  

Bueller?  Bueller?


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## tellner (May 17, 2010)

It depends. 
Is his mastery of the curriculum as good as the other shodans?
Can he beat all the ikkyus and hold his own with the shodans?
Can he teach as well as any other first degree black belt?

If so, he deserves the belt. If not, it's a cheap stunt, and the guy who gave him the belt needs to be slapped around.


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## phfman (May 17, 2010)

Didn't Joe Lewis do it in something like 8 months? Or was that Mike Stone?


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## hussaf (May 17, 2010)

As most of you know...first dan is often referred to as 'shodan' or beginner rank...sometimes first rank.  The intent is that the student is now a serious student of the art...ready to tackle the more complicated aspects of the art.  Basically one should be learning kihon up to this point.  Of course there will be oyo waza to different degrees...but the concept is of a serious beginner.  Think shoshin shogai.  

While it should take five years or so for the average student to get to black belt...its all relative.  Someone who becomes uchideshi at a dojo (a rarity outside aikido, some judo, or sumo schools) will likely have twice as much training in a given year than a regular 2-3 times a week person will in three years.  With that, there is an aikido (aikibudo) course in Japan called the Senshusei program in which students earn shodan in about 12 months.  They train pretty much like a full time job with little to no breaks...almost 8 hours a day.  This is the same program that taught the famous Tokyo Riot Police.

I think it took me about 6 years to earn shodan in GoJu Ryu...hard to count as I'm leaving out periods of sabbatical.  I started when I was around 8 or 9 (we had no children's classes back then) and got my shodan when 21.  With breaks during some of junior high...most of high school...and immediately after high school for military duties.

As others mentioned...where I come from many people train in many arts.  One guy is a sandan in Jidokwan and is training in another Tae Kwon Do style and has skipped ranked and/or tested early.  I think it took him about 3 years to get his blackbelt in the new tae kwon style.


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## seasoned (May 18, 2010)

I don't believe there are crash courses where menta,l as well as physical attributes, are required. I will agree that there are exceptions where someone has achieved a rank in another discipline, and only needs to acquire the needed material for testing. This is something that needs to be agreed upon from the start, with some time table in place. At face value I get a bad feeling when I hear about someone getting a black in what I would consider a very short time period.


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## punisher73 (May 18, 2010)

Just to point out that almost everyone assumes that only McDojos hand out BB in a year.  Look up the JKA program at Tokyo University.  The college course is designed to be taught and award a black belt at the end of the year.

Blackbelts are WORTHLESS as anything outside of your particular school/organization/style.  Some styles like BJJ hold it until you have mastered the material (takes on average 10 years, of course as more and more schools open the time frame is changing).  To many "traditional" schools, blackbelt only means that you are ready to begin and was awarded in 1-2 years.

Most schools fall somewhere in between, it signifies an advanced person, but not yet a master of the material.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 18, 2010)

I do not believe in time limits or restrictions.  *I do however believe in performance and skill level.*  So as jks9199 said above you determine what the meaning of it is and can maintian your standards very, very high if you choose.  In IRT standards will be kept high that is as long as I have any say in the matter!


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## LuckyKBoxer (May 18, 2010)

My personal thoughts are pretty clear on this... Any ranking that has actual curriculum to be learned and tested for should be open for testing when the students demonstrates the  appropriate mastery of the material that the instructor establishes for that belt rank.

Personally I have my own requirements for belt ranks... up to first Black there is absolutely no minimum time in grade required, only a mastery of the material to a certain level.

after first Black there are also time spent training guidelines, and consecutive time spent training guidelines, that go along with the mastery of the material.

I do not care if someone else has weaker, or stronger requirements then I do. I understand what I want to pass on to my students, I care enough about my students to understand their individual situations enough to know what they need, and I do not slack on my requirements.

It does not matter what the martial arts studio down the street requires to earn a black belt, it does not effect me or the students I desire, so let them do whatever they want.


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## scottie (May 18, 2010)

punisher73 said:


> Just to point out that almost everyone assumes that only McDojos hand out BB in a year. Look up the JKA program at Tokyo University. The college course is designed to be taught and award a black belt at the end of the year.
> 
> Blackbelts are WORTHLESS as anything outside of your particular school/organization/style. Some styles like BJJ hold it until you have mastered the material (takes on average 10 years, of course as more and more schools open the time frame is changing). To many "traditional" schools, blackbelt only means that you are ready to begin and was awarded in 1-2 years.
> 
> Most schools fall somewhere in between, it signifies an advanced person, but not yet a master of the material.


 

Many of the first Generation Isshinryu Students earned Sho-Dan rank in the Marines on Okanawa in 8 months to a year . In 1 year and 8 months to two years mid dan ranks. Their clams were 4-8 hours a day training.


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## terryl965 (May 18, 2010)

I only will say one word *NO!!!!!!!!!*


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## girlbug2 (May 18, 2010)

If he was already a BB or brown in a related style, then I can see him getting to black in a year. Otherwise it screams Mcdojo to me, but that's just based on my perception that earning a black belt rank is more than being able to go down a list of skills and forms. There's something to be said for spending a few years in an art, to have a grasp of its principles. That doesn't come quickly to most people.


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## JohnASE (May 19, 2010)

I'd say it depends.  Some styles have less info to learn-fewer techniques and fewer or no katas.  I can see someone working hard and earning a black belt in a year in a style like this.

From what I know about Shotokan, _earning_ a black belt in a year would be extremely difficult, but I suppose it's possible.  If you could earn one training for 5 years, attending 3 hours of classes per week, I can see how someone might earn one by training for 1 year at 15 hours per week.  Maybe he took private lessons in addition to regular classes to make his time more efficient.  Who knows?

In the OP's scenario, I'd say it's doubtful, but not impossible.


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## MJS (May 19, 2010)

hussaf said:


> As most of you know...first dan is often referred to as 'shodan' or beginner rank...sometimes first rank. The intent is that the student is now a serious student of the art...ready to tackle the more complicated aspects of the art. Basically one should be learning kihon up to this point. Of course there will be oyo waza to different degrees...but the concept is of a serious beginner. Think shoshin shogai.
> 
> While it should take five years or so for the average student to get to black belt...its all relative. Someone who becomes uchideshi at a dojo (a rarity outside aikido, some judo, or sumo schools) will likely have twice as much training in a given year than a regular 2-3 times a week person will in three years. With that, there is an aikido (aikibudo) course in Japan called the Senshusei program in which students earn shodan in about 12 months. They train pretty much like a full time job with little to no breaks...almost 8 hours a day. This is the same program that taught the famous Tokyo Riot Police.
> 
> ...


 
It still makes me laugh though, that some people who do these 'programs', think that there's some magical thing thats going to happen to them when they reach BB in 1 yr.  Its a shame, really, because the hard work seems to have been replaced by the fast track method.  Whether you get the belt in a year or 6 yrs, that belt isn't going to do anything for you, when you *** is on the line.  Its the hard work and dedication that you put into it, that really matters.  This is right up there, with people who like to pad their resume, by listing 8 different arts, all with 7th and 8th degree black belts.  Sorry, just not enough time in the day for that.


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## Brian Jones (May 20, 2010)

phfman said:


> Didn't Joe Lewis do it in something like 8 months? Or was that Mike Stone?


 
Joe Lewis and Mike Stone, maybe Bill Wallace. It's not the belt or the time, it's the person


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## Brandon Fisher (May 20, 2010)

Ok lets look at this mathmatically for a second we all say 4 - 5 years of training.  But how many hours per week is that.

Lets say the average is 3 hours per week:
52weeks x 3 hours per week = 156 hours
52 weeks x 6 hours = 312 hours
52 weeks x 9 hours = 468 hours
4 years is 208 weeks x 3 hours per week = 624 hours

Think about it if someone trains 3 hours per week for 4 years who is going to have the advantage the guy who trained for 6 hours a week for a year or the 4 year person. Not even considering this way gives you time to allow for your body to heal properly and for the information to settle in.  Even the person training 9 hours a week 1.5 per day 6 days a week doesn't have the same amount of hours and training time in a year.

Honestly a year is way to fast in my opinion I don't care how much someone trains.


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## 72ronin (May 20, 2010)

As has been said, the interpretation of blackbelt used to be the starting point after movement attainment for further study, and is now transformed into the final product somehow, generaly speaking ofcourse, as it varies from club to club as you all would know. 

Its like its grown as a "business".. Some of the prices for training out there are truly shocking. The word Franchise now appears LOL.

In my opinion, gradings could be carried out by simply informing someone during class that they have reached the next level for egsample.
We are kind of paying twice for the same thing yeah, like class fees to get to that point of skill, and then a substantial grading fee for the same point of skill attainment..

Whatever takes place at a grading should not be unique to any given training session right, or what is it we are paying for during the years of training? Perhaps leaving the blackbelt grading for the assoc. seniors to judge before a panel etc is warranted but a yellow belt having to pay to recognise that they can perform a few stances with movement and basic self-defence applications is somewhat pointless other than a nice profit..

Kind of like paying a weekly fee for car registration/insurance and then being expected to also pay a yearly fee for the very same car registration/insurance isnt it?

Perhaps im just a money miser!, Ive been training since the early nineties, and in that time ive seen it all, and in the end it is viewed as a business manouver most of the time LOL...


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## hussaf (May 20, 2010)

To start...the kanji for sho dan is a knife and a piece of cloth.  The idea being that a shodan is a piece of cloth that has been cut into its basic shape but has not yet been formed into a garment by a tailor....hence a raw beginner but with the basic form there.

As for the Senshusei program in Japan, the goal isn't to get a black belt but to get in-depth knowledge of the art, and yourself.  This program is basically a large-scale uchi deshi program.  As far as my aikido training goes...I learned more in 8 months as an uchi deshi attending class full time and being apprenticed to a teacher than I did the previous 6 years training 4-5 times a week.  Training like that consists of around 30-45 hours of training a week, not including seminars or private lessons you assist your teacher in giving.  For the completion of the Senshusei program, a black belt is the equivalent of a graduation certificate.  Those people could care less about a black belt at the shodan level.  Heck, when I was uchi deshi I was told I'm not allowed to comment/have an opinion on someone else's technique until I've been training for 10 years...regardless of rank (unless directed to do so).  I would say my 12 years of karate training is about the equivalent of my 8 months of intense aikido training as far as knowledge of the art goes.


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## dbell (May 21, 2010)

To me a first dan black belt is a person that has received, and remembers the majority (all that is taught to that point) of the content of that art.  IF a person has received all the content, remembers it and can perform it in a year, then, yes, (s)he can achieve a black belt in a year.

A second dan black belt that has retained that knowledge, has received some new knowledge, has come to understand the "old" knowledge better, and is starting to fully internalize that content, including the new content provided.  They are able to start, especially in the early content, showing the content to others in such a way that the "new person" can learn it.

A third dan black belt is a person that has received all of the content (in most arts anyway) has really started to internalize the content, and is able to teach to art in it's fullest.

Second and third dan can take years, and I would not expect someone to reach those stages in less than several years.  (5+ from first dan for second dan, and another five to ten years for third dan from second dan.)

(This is based on a art that new teachings end upon reaching third dan, and in which the student is granted permission to start teaching on their own, and not under supervision.)

That said, when I see someone, say at tournaments or seminars, wearing a first dan belt, I look at them as someone that should be able to perform the majority of what that art has.  I don't always expect them to have that knowledge internalized, and I expect to see mistakes at times.  When I see a second dan, I expect a much better showing of the art, and I expect to see a person that is able to get into more detail as to the reasons behind what they are doing.  If I see a third dan or higher, I expect some that is proficient in the art to the level of being able to pass it on to others, IS passing it on to others (or was when younger if retired), and who has internalized the art within themselves in such a way that they are living the art.

So, short story, yes, a person can reach first dan in a year, if they have had the time and instruction to receive the content of that art to the requirements of that art for first dan.  Does that mean that person is 100% good at that art?  To me, no.  Just means they can demonstrate the content with at least some skill from beginning to first dan content, know the language up to that point, and, against someone in the system art, be able to at least hold their own for the most part against someone that has trained to that level.


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## terryl965 (May 21, 2010)

Sorry to me it is no again and this is why.

If a person goes twice a week for 1.5 hours in a year he has train about 100 hours on actual materials. Most people take breaks and warm up and warm down exorcises so they may only get a 1 instead of the 1.5. At a place of employment you would still be on a learning curve for only having two and a half weeks od employment, so how can anybody be proficent with obly two and a half weeks of actual training in.... Rest my case.


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## Grenadier (May 21, 2010)

Lots of factors to consider. 

Has the person trained before?  If so, in what system, how long, and how advanced were they?  Any of three things can help increase the rate at which someone progresses, but each of them also need to be analyzed. 

*What system* - At our dojo, we teach Shotokan Karate.  If someone came in from a Wado Ryu school, then they would certainly have a higher base level of knowledge that's closely related to Shotokan Karate, than, say, someone who has trained in Wushu Kung Fu.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with Wushu; it's just that it's significantly more different.  

Thus, I would expect someone with experience in a closely related system, to progress more rapidly.  However, someone with training in a significantly different system would still progress faster than someone who had no experience at all, since good body mechanics are still good body mechanics, no matter what system you may be from, and there are only so many ways for a human body to operate correctly.  

*What does the shodan ranking mean?* - This is very important, since in most schools, shodan means that you have a good proficiency with the fundamentals, and have demonstrated that you're ready to take on the more advanced material.  Some schools.  In this case, doing it in one year isn't necessarily a red flag.  However, at a school where shodan means you're an advanced instructor, then that might raise a few eyebrows.  

*How long / How advanced* - Assuming that someone came from a closely related system, from a good dojo, trained for years, and made it to black belt already, then I wouldn't have any qualms about fast tracking them to black belt.  Much of requirements are already known, and it doesn't taken nearly that much time to hammer in the correct fundamentals.  In these cases, I see no problem in having someone make it to shodan in under a year, since they were already much of the way up the mountain as it was.  

If they're physically and mentally ready to handle the rigors of being a yudansha, and have demonstrated the proficiencies, then there's no reason to hold them back.  

On the other hand, if someone trained for maybe a few months, or under poor quality instruction, then it's going to take a good bit of time to build things up.  


*Learning capabilities* - Some people learn things faster than others.  It's only natural, and will happen.  

*Work ethic* - Those who correctly train harder should make it quicker than others.  

In the end, though, to answer the original question, if a neophyte with no experience can make it to a legit shodan in under a year?  My answer is this: 

Yes, but this is very, very rare.  

Let's say your neophyte is a highly talented individual, with a great capacity for learning, and good phyiscal shape.  Now, let's suppose that he's in the dojo training 10 hours a week.  If a student has that unusual combination of things, then consider yourself (and the student) blessed.  Yes, I've seen it happen, and the person who earned the said rank, was very much deserving of it.  

However, people who can do the above, are exceptionally rare, indeed.  
They're so rare, that you probably don't have to worry about what to do with them, since they're essentially going to motivate themselves.  All you have to do is point the way.  


Now, what if I saw a school where they were churning out black belts after a year, yet the instruction was terrible, the students undisciplined, etc.?  If that's what they want their black belts to represent, then so be it.  That's their choice, but I'm not going to hold them in high regards at all...


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## Brandon Fisher (May 21, 2010)

Shodan equates to a understanding of the basics not really depth.


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## Explorer (May 21, 2010)

Short answer. No.

The speaker may have learned the "form" of the system but could not have internalized the substance.

This may say quite a bit about a school that would even consider giving a black belt to someone who has only put in enough time to get to 7th or 6th kyu.


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## elder999 (May 21, 2010)

Well, I dunno.

They could, as some said, be doing intensive study-in Japan, or Korea-it's not that uncommon. Or, they could be a prodigy: I've already posted once about Shokei Matsui, of kyokushin. He started studying karate at 13, and achieved shodan at 14-hardly typical, even in Japan, but no one doubts or has any business doubting his achievement.

Also, one has to recognize that often rank is awarded in Japan with the expectation that the student will _grow_ into it; this was probably the case for many who returned from overseas service with rank, though it's also likely that just as many may as well have purchased their rank.

Lastly, of course, shodan means, as others have pointed out, "first step." While it's a passage, it's one that's made far too much of here.....


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## KenpoVzla (Jun 7, 2010)

Black Belt in one year? No!

With that said, there are exceptions to every rule. If an instructor/school, awards a black belt to a motivational speaker that has proven himself and furthermore would like to serve as an example that things CAN be achieved, then YES, there's the exception. Specially if the student will continue with regular training.

There are a lot of factors that we don't know here, money, hours, previous training, etc.

Taking long to get a black belt for just the sake of taking long, does not make a black belt better. I've seen students take 2-3-4 months off at a time, habitually! and then earn their 5-year "training" Black Belt . 

Now is that better, than someone who spent 2-3 years working their butts off with regular training? Not to mention if you're like me, where you're thinking about martial arts constantly, looking at videos, reading magazines, finding ways to improve yourself outside the dojo.


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## goldwarrior (Jul 11, 2010)

Harald said:


> I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training.



NO!  That is _highly inaccurate!_  I don't know of any Bujinkan instructors who have given out Black Belts that quickly.  

Where have you heard this?  People on this board or personal experience?


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 12, 2010)

goldwarrior said:


> NO!  That is _highly inaccurate!_  I don't know of any Bujinkan instructors who have given out Black Belts that quickly.
> 
> Where have you heard this?  People on this board or personal experience?



It's been mentioned by several Bujinkan people here on board, and a friend of mine on another discussion board mentioned that he had his Bujinkan shodan after just over 2 years.

In the Bujinkan it seems to depends heavily on your teacher, but between 2 - 4 years is not that uncommon apparently.


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## Victor Smith (Jul 12, 2010)

Historically in Karate it was Funakoshi Ginchin who started using the belt program after viewing Kano's Judo in Japan.  After his first year in Japan he was awarding Sho dan rank. I'm sure it's how you grow a program from nothing.  We know as time passed and his art became the JKA it developed different standards. He never awarded anyone beyond 5th dan, then after he died the JKA developed a new rank structure and instant 8th dans.

Funkaoshi, Miyagi and others did acquire teaching certificates from the ruling Japanese martial arts organization. Miyagi was awarded Hanshi I believe and Funakoshi received Kyoshi (just from memory).

Miyagi never awarded anyone a black belt and didn't believe anyone except the king of Okinawa should have that authority. After his death the Goju groups in Okinawa adopted Dan rank and handed them out.

Actually it was in the mid 50's the other Okinawan groups adopted black belts and dan rank, they chose to decide which standard they followed. Isshinryu's founder, never having been in a rank situation, awarded his American students sho dan after 1 1/2 years, made some of them senior rank to oversee Isshinryu development in the states and gave futurerank certificates to many others (many of who assumed that future rank when they returned home.

Look there were no standards, true karate didn't use rank, but when the Okinawan's realized they were going back to Japanese control in 1972, they decided to follow the Japanese approach, even though it had no historical relevance.

As there are no standards, except those an organization/instructor chooses to follow, all rank then becomes a closed house issue, irrelevant to what others do or think.

If rank moves an organization or a person forward, it serves a purpose. If it is used to instantly know what it represents to any outsider, they are fools (and I mean everyone who cares, because they're not in that organization.

I've seen programs with 1 year standards, and everything else. It's not how many years or hours, it's what the training really represents.

I use no time standard, sho dan is just a performance issue, nothing else. Simply perform the correct basics, 15 kata, basic self defense execution with skill. No application studies, they begin after black belt when the person's movement is to a level they can insert their technique into an attack with aplomb.  

The probable adult time might be 4 years or shorter or much longer.

I don't find anyone reaching our average of performance before 10 years of training, so you can guage what we consider sho-dan's relevance. It's a step.

I've never  looked for students, never charge, and am willing to accept those with other training, even serious times in other training, but the key to what we work is the movement potential, not kata knowledge so even advanced dan who are interested start at the beginning of the program (they keep their belt, but...)

The youth program works out to about 7 to 9 years study to reach sho-dan.

Beginning instructor qualifications are a mininmu of 15 continuous years training under the instructor before beginning mentorship, and that is regardless of previous training.

But I support the existence of programs that don't follow my approach, I really do. If people want 1 or 2 year black belts, good for them, I'd even help find them a school. Then my students don't have to worry about them. Always a good idea.

pleasantly,


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## Haze (Aug 4, 2010)

Harald said:


> Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years.



Traditionaly there were no belts. Many Americans who trained in Okinawa recieved Black Belts in 12-18 months. Shodan means "sho=beginning, dan=level, so black belt is just a starting point for real study to begin. You should have a solid foundation and understanding of the basic concepts of your art to be awarded a BB. 

So could you recieve a BB in 12 months? Yes. All rank is relevant where it came from. He is a BB at the place he recieved it at but that is realy all it means or what any rank means.

I had a BB come to our dojo to see if he wanted to train with us (he was new to the area) and he moved like he had never been on the floor before. Had another guy from the same style as us (Okinawan Goju) say he was a BB and he did have some great fighting ability but just couldn't remember any of the goju kata. 

I know BB's that have memorized 25 kata but can not explain any of the applications from them, or very little from them. I know other BB's that only know 5 kata but have a very deep understanding of them.


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## Fiendlover (Aug 4, 2010)

Harald said:


> The reason I'm asking is that a motivational speaker I know of around my area supposedly got awarded his Shotokan black belt after only one year of training. Obviously, he did it to prove his points about "anything being achievable" and so on. Some would say that getting a black belt after only one year in the dojo is a great accomplishment, while others would argue that nobody can get a black belt that fast, no matter how well they perform stuff.
> 
> Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years. I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training, while in others (like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) you're crazy good for getting one after less than five years, as most people will train for twice as long to get their black belt status.
> 
> ...


No, I don't think it's legit.  When I trained in Japanese karate, I was there for 5 years and I was just getting my brown belt and I was there three to four days of the week and I practiced non-stop.  I had to leave for family reasons but if I continued it would have still taken maybe another year before I hit black.

Now I'm taking Soo Bahk Do and even though many of the things are similar to what I did at my previous karate, I've been there for a little over a year and I'm taking my first belt test for green belt this Saturday.  I've also been coming to class three days a week since I started except for this week where I will be there everyday until I test Saturday.  And I'm not even sure I'm ready for that.

So no, I do not think a black belt should be given after a year of training no matter what art it is.


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## Gorilla (Aug 4, 2010)

My daughter got hers @ 18 months.  She had been watching my son do TKD for about 4 years.  She pretty much new her forms 1 through 8 after 1 month.  She was a natural @ sparing.  They put her on the sparing team the first day.  She started out training 5 to 6 days per week.  She never lost a fight as a color belt.  She won Nationals as a green belt about 8 months after she started.  They moved he to red belt she continued to beat everyone she fought.  She started fighting Black belt at about 1 year into her training before she had tested.  @ about 18 months the master tested he for black belt.  She had to pass the Black Belt test with everyone else.  It was an all day test it started off with a 5 mile run.  To pass this portion you had to run 5 miles in under 45 min.  She finished @ 35.14 and beat everyone who was testing.  That year she won a silver medal @ AAU Nationals Sparing and finished 3rd in forms.  She has been training for 5 years and will be testing for her second degree this month.  Clearly she was fast tracked because of her athletic ability and dedication to training.


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## rlp271 (Aug 8, 2010)

We always worry about time requirements and such for black belt.  It has different meanings to different people and different styles.  The history of belt ranking has been gone over here, so I won't do it again.  For all those who say a black belt in one year sounds like a McDojo though, take a gander at the Kodokan's website.  They offer the opportunity to receive your black belt in a single year.  The requirements are quite stiff though.  I don't remember the exact amount of time training, but you have to win all of your matches at every shiai to qualify.  That's no easy task.  There are very few cases, but there are a few of people being promoted to shodan in Judo through batsugun (sp?), after short times, in one story a single day, because of their skill at throwing people.  They defeated black belt level competitors at shiai, which qualifies them to be a black belt.  In Korea, it seems like everyone I run into on the street has a chodan in Taekwondo.  They get it when they're kids after a year or two.  It's just the way the system works here.  I'm not going to question it.  Belt ranks are really for politics, I say leave the politics out of it unless you plan on being head cheese one day, and just train.  Leave worries about rank to the Hombu if you have one, or to whoever is higher than you.  If you're already the head cheese, then congratulations, you get to tell everyone who is under you what's up.


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## Narges (Dec 26, 2010)

Just like the original poster I have always believed that one who recieves a black belt should have achieved a certain level of mastery. The hours of training, natural talents, dedication and such things play a very important role, but there are lots of fine points regarding MA that it takes quite a long time to understand. Therefore, imho it's very unlikely that someone who gets a black belt in one year actually deserves it.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Dec 26, 2010)

Harald said:


> The reason I'm asking is that a motivational speaker I know of around my area supposedly got awarded his Shotokan black belt after only one year of training. Obviously, he did it to prove his points about "anything being achievable" and so on. Some would say that getting a black belt after only one year in the dojo is a great accomplishment, while others would argue that nobody can get a black belt that fast, no matter how well they perform stuff.
> 
> Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years. I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training, while in others (like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) you're crazy good for getting one after less than five years, as most people will train for twice as long to get their black belt status.
> 
> ...


 
I can give someone a tenth degree black belt after 6 months of training, its legit.
I can give someone a yellow belt after 30 years of training, its not legit.
It all depends ont he person giving the belt and recieving the belt really.
I know alot of tenth degree grandmasters in martial arts, I am pretty sure I could smash every single one of them in a fight. So if I base the legitimacy of rank by how well the can fight me then alot of people have illegitimate rank.
I know of some incredibly smart, photographic memory people who are intermediate underbelt ranks, who can remember, explain, and recite theory, concepts and principles better then I can. so If I based legitimacy on that then I would probalby have an illegitimate rank compared to them..
You can make thousands of comparisons.
In the end it is going to come down to the person who accepts that rank, the person who awards the rank, and those that acknowledge it. Nobody else matters.
I dont have to train or pay money to someone I feel is an illegitimate belt rank.
I choose who I acknowledge, and if I think a tenth degree blackbelt is illegitimate, or a first degree is illegitimate, but they have students who acknowledge it who am I to judge them?
Don't get me wrong... I still judge them, because im a judgemental bastard.. But my opinions are worthless to them and their students in most cases...
just saying its all perception.


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## searcher (Dec 26, 2010)

Here is a question that needs to be asked, "is it the first style he has trained in?"    I could see this happeneing IF the person already has training and is somewhat of a phenom.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 26, 2010)

KenpoVzla said:


> Black Belt in one year? No!
> 
> With that said, there are exceptions to every rule. If an instructor/school, awards a black belt to a motivational speaker that has proven himself and furthermore would like to serve as an example that things CAN be achieved, then YES, there's the exception. Specially if the student will continue with regular training.
> 
> ...


Any one Living in a Van down by the river probably should be a black belt.
Sean


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## hkfuie (Dec 26, 2010)

Victor Smith said:


> But I support the existence of programs that don't follow my approach, I really do. If people want 1 or 2 year black belts, good for them, I'd even help find them a school. Then my students don't have to worry about them. Always a good idea.




Nice point.


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## chinto (Dec 28, 2010)

a black belt in a year? Hmm  say he is a brown belt, first kyu in a very related system..then yes. 

if he was not trained in a realated system , and I mean a very related system.... NO WAY!


min of 5 years is standered in the USA. and most european nations. that is because in such places most people think a BB is some kind of expert.  We all know he is not, but they think he is.  that is why I am told that most of our brown belts are better then most BB's who are sho dan and even ne dan in Okinawa. because we expect much more out of them.  

the other reason is that the law does treat a BB in an altercation diferently.  you are much more likely to go to jail after one if they know you are a martial artist with one. they will also most likely take a lot higher precations when taking you into custody for the very reason they think  you are an expert if you have that rank. 

so NO  minumum of 5 years. in shobayashi seems to averidge about 63/4 years to7 year.


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## Brandon Fisher (Dec 28, 2010)

Chinto,
Big claim that most of the brown belts in your dojo are better than the shodan's or nidans in Okinawa. Those guys are good, may not know as much kata or waza but they are good.


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## Victor Smith (Dec 28, 2010)

The entire discussion hands on there are no objective standards everyone follows. Being classical there is no rank or systems, just instructors and students, period.

A friend had a TKD program in his down 20 years ago awarding students black belts in one year. Then that program closed and all the parents ran to my friends school to sign their kids up and were shocked that they could do so as white belts and then got mad with "Well we paid for the test they passed for black belt".  They had a very hard time understanding that meant nothing in my friends program.

A different friend halved the time for black sash from 6 years to 3 years and explained he felt he would have more students training at 6 years from the change. His requirements from time in study didn't change just the belt they wore, so at 6 years you were studying the same material as before. His program has been successful for 40 years. He is teaching Chinese arts.

IMO the standard is how successful the program is. If one promotes students to black belt after 1 year and they're still studying 20 years later then that answer worked. If the program doesn't last that answer works too. 

It's not about comparison to other programs. None of you are qualified for a sho-dan in my program. I've always been pleased when dan's have approached for study but explain that they start from the beginning. They either stay or they don't. Those that joined average 15 years of study with me in those cases.

Even less relevant is my student can beat their students. In classical karate there was no competition. I'm not against it if that's what you want, but it has nothing to do with the practice of karate.

some thoughts,


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## jtbdad (Jan 17, 2011)

Harald said:


> The reason I'm asking is that a motivational speaker I know of around my area supposedly got awarded his Shotokan black belt after only one year of training. Obviously, he did it to prove his points about "anything being achievable" and so on. Some would say that getting a black belt after only one year in the dojo is a great accomplishment, while others would argue that nobody can get a black belt that fast, no matter how well they perform stuff.
> 
> Traditionally, a getting a black belt would take about five years. I know that in some arts, like in the Bujinkan's Ninjutsu, a black belt is commonly awarded after only two and a half to three years training, while in others (like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu) you're crazy good for getting one after less than five years, as most people will train for twice as long to get their black belt status.
> 
> ...




My friend the meaning of any color belt is purely dependent upon the requirements set up by those awarding the belt.  I hesitate to make judgment calls upon other schools and their own criteria.  We must remember that the belt system itself is subjective, not uniform and not even universally applied (some MA's have no belt or even ranking system)   Train hard, have fun and pass on what you learn to those less fortunate.  

Blessings upon you my friend.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 2, 2011)

In my school, my Sensei used to give out the black belt and certificate four months after the candidates graded, but he changed the format by giving out the black belt(s) and certificate(s) right after the grading is over. The reason is that a candidate goes through a 4 month training period to meet certain requirements, that is really the test, then the four hour grading which is more than a show. So before the grading you know that you have already got your black belt.

I prefer to get the black belt and certificate right after grading instead of waiting for a long time. Even other people I know through myspace go through the same thing or receive their black belt at a special function such as a banquet or a tea ceremony the next day or two which is very cool.


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## RobinTKD (Sep 2, 2011)

I practice TKD, and although it isn't the first martial art i've studied, i got my Black Belt in 16 months, so a little over a year, I train (notice present tense!) Every. Single. Day. And when i'm not training, i'm thinking about training, or thinking about applications of techniques and kata, i often write these thoughts down too as i can then see how my mental attitude or thought processes has evolved over the course of my training. I think TKD is slightly different though, a black belt has never denoted a master, more someone who knows and can perform the basics proficiently, so it becomes the beginning of the real training, rather than an end.


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## lma (Sep 4, 2011)

Most probably a McDojo but I wouldn't say its impossible. If they trained all day every day and had the required level within a year then it would be unfair not to. Thought there is a certain amount of knowledge that only comes with experience over time.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 4, 2011)

I think it really Depends.

Where I Train, 1st Dan really just means that you understand all the Main Foundations. 2nd Dan to us, is 1st Dan to most. If that makes any sense.


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## Buka (Sep 4, 2011)

The fast track to Black Belt has had an effect on Martial Arts similar to the steroid era on baseball. Used to be when 30 home runs meant something. Used to be when the term Black Belt was held in esteem similar to the term Special Forces. 

Going to a dojo for a few years and paying your tuition does not a Black Belt make.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 4, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> I think it really Depends.
> 
> Where I Train, 1st Dan really just means that you understand all the Main Foundations. 2nd Dan to us, is 1st Dan to most. If that makes any sense.


Apologies for Quoting Myself, and i normally wouldnt do it, but the Detail is somewhat Pertinant.
It still takes 2-6 Years to get a 1st Dan, depending on how smoothely you Sail, and if you do any Double Gradings. Its just the way its percieved i was looking at, opening possibilites.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 4, 2011)

In Okinawan Karate and Kobudo Shodan (1st Dan) is just a basic understanding of the basics and nothing more also. Also Masters level though its not used like that is typically 7th Dan when someone is issued the grade of Kyoshi not Shihan. Shihan grade is the license for you to be able to teach on your own in your own dojo under the watchful eye of your organization. This can be done at 3rd dan but normally 4th Dan or 5th dan, I think it is the western idea of what black belt is and what its not that has changed some things.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 4, 2011)

Going for black belt should take a minumum of 4 or 5 years at an adult level. If you train for a year or two and grade for black belt you will most likely have limited knowledge of the system you study. It is common for Mcdojo's to have students even kids hand out their black belts in a short span of their training. I heard stories from my students ranging from 8-10 years of age on a couple of occasions, that told me that they visited the YMCA and the Sensei there have black belts around their age 6-10 years of age!


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## SuperFLY (Sep 5, 2011)

this would never happen in my school.

for starters you have to train for a *minimum of 1 year after reaching 1st kyu* before you can be eligible for your black belt grading.

could potentially do it in 2 years if you got through all the kyu grades in a year but thats unlikely as gradings are official affairs that run once every 3 months. no less.

so certainly not possible to manage it in the school i go to.

that said, after 15 years or so of not training i went to 1st kyu in around 9 months. but i was awarded 4th kyu as a starter as i already had the skills in my head. (had trained for around 6 years as a child) for someone to start from scratch, its just not going to happen.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 5, 2011)

Harald said:


> What do you think about all this? Is a black belt that is given after only one year of training legit?



I suppose it depends on who you ask.  In Korean, school children get their first Dan in about a year on a regular basis.  Consider that for what you think it's worth.  On the other hand, in my area is a high ranking legite instructor of an Okinwan style.  He promoted someone, supposedly a friend and semi-celeb to Shodan in one year.  The home org in Okinawa honored it, but from what I heard they were not happy campers about it.  

As mentioned, a lot has to due with the amount of training that went into the year.  Was it 5-7 days a week of an hour or more each day?  Did the successfully pass all requirements when tested?  Perhaps the proof is in the pudding i.e. on the mats where, in truth, it really counts.


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## chris66 (Jun 23, 2015)

Never, period.


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## DaveB (Jun 27, 2015)

For me,  a black belt should only be awarded for appropriate skill, knowledge and understanding of the art in question. 

If that takes 2 weeks or 20 years is immaterial. Grading based on other factors diminishes the rank in my eyes.


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## Limasogobudo (Jul 4, 2015)

You know I have a student of mine whom did get his black belt in one year. He trained with me for about 2 to 4 hours a day 6 days a week. We went to tournaments he did vary well. most of the time 1st place but the physical part is easy. I was lucky to train with him this much because I could see who he was. A black belt like i said is not just doing an exercise it is to improve your life. So during that time I watched him make drastic changes within himself. That is what make that idea of earning his black belt final. I see people give black belts out like candy because of physical techniques or kata but then the black belt leaves. We all have things that we could leave for I mean we all have life. but it is the idea that when you get that black belt you see your life change. And to me a Shodon just means you past high school. So you see the major change then you continue to watch it mature. that is the idea. and as your mind matures so does your body. So does your mind.


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## drop bear (Jul 4, 2015)

Uchi Deshi - Ashihara Karate International - Kaicho Hoosain Narker

Uchideshi programs?


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## Tez3 (Jul 5, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Uchi Deshi - Ashihara Karate International - Kaicho Hoosain Narker
> 
> Uchideshi programs?




"Risk free karate, punch without being punched, fell your opponent without going down yourself...."
What is Ashihara - Ashihara Karate International - Kaicho Hoosain Narker Sabaki Fighting Karate


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## RowdyAz (Jul 5, 2015)

I'm against people getting a black belt for long service, when they're still tentative to spar mediocre at kata/forms hesitant to go in on a technique.  Then rewarded for hanging around the club and sticking with it although no real progress has been made, just alot of fees been paid.  Commitment doesn’t always make people good, with some you can either do it or you can't.


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## drop bear (Jul 5, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> "Risk free karate, punch without being punched, fell your opponent without going down yourself...."
> What is Ashihara - Ashihara Karate International - Kaicho Hoosain Narker Sabaki Fighting Karate



Should have seen the akido one I looked up first. Went along the lines of you can have trained another style of akido but never speak of it.

I think ukideshi programs might inherently attract cults.


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## marques (Jul 5, 2015)

ONE year... *LOL* Everything is possible. Like fake money.  In one year (even full-time) things will be only at the surface of the brain, useless under pressure. Around five years is the normal.

Where I trained, to be instructor was mandatorily to receive the black belt. Sometimes it only means you can teach (even if you teach your partners since ever). It can be many things. It can be nothing, as 'your' motivational speaker proves...


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