# Megami or Mizugami?



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2011)

I say 'mizugami'.  What say you?


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I say 'mizugami'. What say you?



I've got absolutely no dog in this hunt, Bill-and I'm sure you say whatever your _sensei_ says, which is appropriate, but I'd ask what the founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku said, if I wanted the definitive answer.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2011)

elder999 said:


> I've got absolutely no dog in this hunt, Bill-and I'm sure you say whatever your _sensei_ says, which is appropriate, but I'd ask what the founder, Tatsuo Shimabuku said, if I wanted the definitive answer.



Stop being reasonable; I'm trying to stir up trouble.


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## dancingalone (Oct 31, 2011)

What is the argument at hand?  Perhaps you could summarize for the ignorant unwashed like me?

I do recall reading something about one of Shimabuku Sensei's students or children saying the megami actually had nothing to do with the Water Goddess?  Is this related somehow, Bill?


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Stop being reasonable; I'm trying to stir up trouble.



Oh, okay then.

I say _megami_, for Isshinryu No Megami (&#19968;&#24515;&#27969;&#12398;&#22899;&#31070;[SUP]?[/SUP])-she's the goddess of Isshinryu, *not* a "water goddess," which is what mizugami means. 

Angi Uezu said _mizugami_ is wrong.Back in New York, his student, Joe Jennings says that _mizugami_ is wrong. Eiko Taneshi said _mizugami _is wrong.A.J. Advincula says _mizugami_ is wrong.  Shinsho Shimabuku and Kensho Tokumura both said _mizugami_ is wrong. 

Stop saying it. :lol:


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> What is the argument at hand?  Perhaps you could summarize for the ignorant unwashed like me?
> 
> I do recall reading something about one of Shimabuku Sensei's students or children saying the megami actually had nothing to do with the Water Goddess?  Is this related somehow, Bill?



Yes, it was.  So pick a side, and fight about it, please.  I need an argument.


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I need an argument.



_*No you don't. *_:lfao:


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## dancingalone (Oct 31, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Yes, it was.  So pick a side, and fight about it, please.  I need an argument.



<shrugs>  I always used 'megami' since I became aware of Isshin-ryu karate.  Hey, if you want a Isshin-ryu internet slap fight, just say something about XXX being the TRUE successor to Shimabuku Sensei.  LOL


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2011)

elder999 said:


> _*No you don't. *_:lfao:



[video=youtube_share;kQFKtI6gn9Y]http://youtu.be/kQFKtI6gn9Y[/video]


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 31, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  I always used 'megami' since I became aware of Isshin-ryu karate.



Well, you're wrong!  Wrong wrong wrong!



> Hey, if you want a Isshin-ryu internet slap fight, just say something about XXX being the TRUE successor to Shimabuku Sensei.  LOL



XXX was NOT the true successor.  YYY was!  Everybody knows that!


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## punisher73 (Nov 1, 2011)

How many IR people does it take to change a lightbulb?  Only 1, but then everyone else stands around and says "That's not how my sensei said to do it!".


Just stirring the pot for Mr. Mattocks!  

I have heard that same joke with MANY different arts.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2011)

Mizugami








Megami






Now take your corners and come out shouting


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2011)

I say Megazord.


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## jks9199 (Nov 2, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Mizugami
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Megamind


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2011)

Mega Man


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## Victor Smith (Nov 2, 2011)

Words.

Originally when I bought a patch (of the Steve Armstrong line) from my instructor I'm not sure the patch was named, but if it was it was mizugami. All of the 70's and early 80's magazine articles used the term. Shimabuku Sensei was gone and didn't leave any documentation on the issue.

Then in the mid 80's Advincula Sensei, the designer of the first patch said it wasn't the Okinawan mizugami but the Isshinryu Megami.  I asked my instructor and he said Advincula must be right.

On the other hand I don't believe in anybody's goddesses, nor care. I don't teach mythology to my students, nor did my instructors, (one of whom is a minister) and have no problem with either name.

Shimabuku Sensei didn't wear the patch and personally 1/2 of my gi's have it, and 1/2 of them don't, and today 1/2 of my adult classes don't wear gi anyway, so I see it as somewhat irrelevant.

As I respect everyone, but follow no one (except for my original instructors) I don't find testaments about what is right very important.

Isshinryu is one of the new generation proving Organizations could perpetuate karate as opposed to originally just instructors. But in the end Isshinryu (the generic) still comes down to the instructor and the dojo.

References as to the right Isshinryu are irrelevant.

The art takes place in the floor, regardless of the flavor.

As I've taught youth for 33 years personally if I had the money I'd have a young person design the patch, have it made up and forget the rest.

If I'm aware I'll politely call the patch whatever the listener prefers, but if asked i'd answer mizugami because I've used the term for 38+ years.

Isshinryu really is my two knuckles driving through your body.

GRIN,


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> On the other hand I don't believe in anybody's goddesses, nor care. I don't teach mythology to my students, nor did my instructors, (one of whom is a minister) and have no problem with either name.



I know a local Isshin-Ryu sensei (not mine) who does not wear the patch on his gi, nor do his students.  He said it was a religious thing; he's a devout Christian.  I personally have no problem wearing the patch or bowing to the shomen when I enter or leave the dojo.  For me, it's just a sign of respect, not a form of worship.


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## Victor Smith (Nov 2, 2011)

Bill,

I understand the Religious issues but they're not really my point. I'm more there are much more important things behind my Isshinryu than the patch name, the patch type or the patch meaning.   

I will always respect each tradition, but in the end in my dojo I only care about performance.


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## RobinTKD (Nov 3, 2011)

Victor Smith said:


> Isshinryu really is my two knuckles driving through your body.



What a great quote!


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## scottie (Nov 3, 2011)

Mr. Bill,
When we were at Grandmaster Mitchum's in June, My Sensei answered that question for me by asking every 1st Generation student in attendince other than Master Mitchum that queston; I had already heard his answer (it was a clear Mizu Gami, to say the least). All of the other 1st Generation students that I spoke to gave a very definate MizuGami. Some told their take on Megami not all were nice, but all were a clear Mizu Gami. As if Master Mitchum's take was not enough right.


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## Daikenen (Aug 31, 2012)

The Isshin Ryu Megami has no religious inclinations as I understand it.  Just because there is a godess in the emblem does not mean we worship the godess.  Megami is merely a godess, period.  Replace her with any godess from any religion or other standing of the word godess and that's all that's important.

From what I understand, the the patch is a symbol of Isshin Ryu, our logo if you will.  Every piece has a meaning.  The vertical oval (or fist) represents our vertical punch.  The raised fist and lowered open hand representing the strength of "a godess" and then gentleness of a mother.  The dragon representing Shimabuku Sensei and to acknowledge that the godess is a mother.  The three stars: Mind, Body, Spirit as well as Shimabuku Sensei's three main Karate instructors.  All of the colors represent each of the belt ranks.

The symbol of Isshin Ryu is this patch.  Is she a Megami?  Yes.  Is she in the water?  Yes, so she could be considered a Mizugami.  Is she _the_ Mizugami?  I say it's irrelevant.  I grew up calling her Mizugami (as she very well could be, because she for us is merely a symbol, not whatever the Okinawans believed Mizugami to be) and so I believe they are both right and that even if I replaced her with Athena the symbolism of our art would still be there (though perhaps not the heritage  ).


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