# Inside Pak Sau



## futsaowingchun (Aug 10, 2015)

A favorite technique of mine, I demonstrate  on how I apply the inside Pak Sao technique in Chi Sau and in the Lop Sau drills. Some Chunners say using the pak Sau on the inside is wrong an you can get trapped easy, but I have found it to be very effective to the contrary. Hope you enjoy the video. SORRY but the video is not framed correctly but I believe you will be able to make out most of what's going on in the video despite the fact.


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## yak sao (Aug 10, 2015)

Couldn't get the video to play. I'm sure the problem's on my end...we have a storm coming through plus I have the worst internet connection in the world anyway.

As for inside pak sau...our lineage has a saying (it may be used across all WC lineages, IDK) that states: "_Beware the inside pak sau_".
This doesn't mean, don't use it, but rather if you do, make sure you do it correctly or it will be used against you.
I will try and watch the video tomorrow.


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## Argus (Aug 10, 2015)

yak sao said:


> Couldn't get the video to play. I'm sure the problem's on my end...we have a storm coming through plus I have the worst internet connection in the world anyway.
> 
> As for inside pak sau...our lineage has a saying (it may be used across all WC lineages, IDK) that states: "_Beware the inside pak sau_".
> This doesn't mean, don't use it, but rather if you do, make sure you do it correctly or it will be used against you.
> I will try and watch the video tomorrow.



Right. The dangerous aspect of inside pak-sau is that you potentially open up the line on the side of your paking hand as it crosses center. I've found that I catch a lot of people on this technique simply by punching as they cross center to pak, if they don't create a kind of lan-sau or bong-sau position with their paking hand to cover the line.

I'd be especially wary of using it outside of a chisao context, against someone who's really trying to hit you. But, I'm sure there are situations where it's appropriate even then.


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## geezer (Aug 10, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> A favorite technique of mine, I demonstrate  on how I apply the inside Pak Sao technique in Chi Sau and in the Lop Sau drills. Some Chunners say using the pak Sau on the inside is wrong an you can get trapped easy, but I have found it to be very effective to the contrary...



Too bad about the off-center framing. Nevertheless I think I got the general idea, and to be frank, I don't care for it. While this kind of high sideward flicking pack can work in sparring, depending on other factors, I do not believe it is good training in a drill like chi sau. Here's why: Chi-sau is just a drill designed to train specific attributes. One of these is bi-lateral foward intent and forward springy pressure (yau lik). Another is learning to sense and control your opponent's center. And above all when both arms are engaged, you don't let go of one arm and use _both arms_ to control one of your opponent's. _Yat fook yee, mo yee fook yat. _One arm controls two, not two on one!

When you do the high pak from fook, you free your other (tan-bong) hand to spring forward and strike. So far, so good. But you have just released your opponent's other arm and for an instant are using both your arms to release his fook and free your tan-bong hand for the punch. If he has good forward spring he will hit you first, or at least trade punches with you. Of course, you have the high-line and may trade your shot to the head for his body shot. You are also bigger, have longer arms, and are more experienced. So I would assume that you usually get the best of the exchange. That's OK in sparring, as I said before. But is that good chi-sau?

I admit, also am quite fond of using indoor pak-da in chi sau. But I use a firm pak below the bridge and step in with my pak so that my forearm forms a low lan sau and traps my opponent's other arm and controls his center of gravity. For those who know the WT system this is the opening of their "Second Chi-sau Section". Applied against the right pressure at the right moment, it is beautifully efficient and effective. Or as _Yak _noted, applied at the wrong time and wrong situation it can get you clobbered!


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## Jake104 (Aug 10, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> A favorite technique of mine, I demonstrate  on how I apply the inside Pak Sao technique in Chi Sau and in the Lop Sau drills. Some Chunners say using the pak Sau on the inside is wrong an you can get trapped easy, but I have found it to be very effective to the contrary. Hope you enjoy the video. SORRY but the video is not framed correctly but I believe you will be able to make out most of what's going on in the video despite the fact.


In my first lineage we used pak sao like that. Coming back towards the shoulder using the fingers in a hooking fashion. It was a soft hand that conformed to the arm being pak'd. The way it was explained to me was, from the center we created a half triangle type shape. So if we did it from man sao it came back towards shoulder then center then back out up the center as a punch. If using it single handed. If from a wu sao it looked like what you showed in the video.

I actually use that pak in application against a jab. I use a single lead hand variation. It's  ina outside or blindside fashion. So left to right lead. I use it to bridge the gap off a jab. I use the pak sao with an angle and as the jab retracts I punch with the same hand. It works against a double jab also. Since I use it from the blindside I keep the line by changing the center.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Too bad about the off-center framing. Nevertheless I think I got the general idea, and to be frank, I don't care for it. While this kind of high sideward flicking pack can work in sparring, depending on other factors, I do not believe it is good training in a drill like chi sau. Here's why: Chi-sau is just a drill designed to train specific attributes. One of these is bi-lateral foward intent and forward springy pressure (yau lik). Another is learning to sense and control your opponent's center. And above all when both arms are engaged, you don't let go of one arm and use _both arms_ to control one of your opponent's. _Yat fook yee, mo yee fook yat. _One arm controls two, not two on one!
> 
> When you do the high pak from fook, you free your other (tan-bong) hand to spring forward and strike. So far, so good. But you have just released your opponent's other arm and for an instant are using both your arms to release his fook and free your tan-bong hand for the punch. If he has good forward spring he will hit you first, or at least trade punches with you. Of course, you have the high-line and may trade your shot to the head for his body shot. You are also bigger, have longer arms, and are more experienced. So I would assume that you usually get the best of the exchange. That's OK in sparring, as I said before. But is that good chi-sau?
> 
> I admit, also am quite fond of using indoor pak-da in chi sau. But I use a firm pak below the bridge and step in with my pak so that my forearm forms a low lan sau and traps my opponent's other arm and controls his center of gravity. For those who know the WT system this is the opening of their "Second Chi-sau Section". Applied against the right pressure at the right moment, it is beautifully efficient and effective. Or as _Yak _noted, applied at the wrong time and wrong situation it can get you clobbered!



When I use the inside pak sau sure there is a risk like you mentioned and I have already calculated it and I'm  ready for him to try to hit me with his other hand.If he tries that pak hand is already traveling twords him and will intercept his attack. It will work if the timing is right,so far I have gotten away with it but when they try to use it on my I usually nail them with it. So,although I agree in general it is not the safest technique for myself I can so far pull it off. Is it good to train in Chi Sau? I would say yes but not to a beginner. I explore what I can and cant do and what works for me,so that is how I evaluate and determine what I will and wont use. I think when you take two people who know the same system have about the same level of training and skill, It is the persons who thinks outside the box IMO that will be the winner. The unexpected and unpredictable is a hard thing to deal with...


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 11, 2015)

Good discussion.
I've generally been taught thus far in my WT lineage that an inside pak to intercept an incoming strike is sort of a last resort or "oh $h!t" reaction. 
Where inside pak is very useful (and chi-sau emphasizes this) is to open up the center and free your opposite arm to strike once contact has already been made. Like Geezer pointed out, it is so much more effective when your elbow can control or neutralize one arm while you are pak'ing the other arm all with one limb.


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## Danny T (Aug 11, 2015)

Learning attacks and counters in Chi Sao should be a specific method. I also encourage my students to play and find out what works and why. What doesn't work and why. Every attack should place one in a position of advantage and to simultaneously defend one's positions while limiting the opponent's. There are numerous 'tricks' that work on based on speed and timing vs one not as advanced as you in the Chi Sao platform but will probable get you hurt vs someone attacking at range and at full pressure even though they do not have your skill in chi sao. What will happen when you are vs one who is faster than you or an injury prevents your speed? Tricks are fun but the fundamentals of proper positioning and applications should be maintained especially when passing it on to others.


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## Jake104 (Aug 11, 2015)

Danny T said:


> There are numerous 'tricks' that work on based on speed and timing


I like the tricks that are based on being old and slow. One of my favorite tricks when it comes to that is, "don't fight the limbs, fight the persons balance and COG".


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 11, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> I like the tricks that are based on being old and slow. One of my favorite tricks when it comes to that is, "don't fight the limbs, fight the persons balance and COG".



i wouldn't say that is a trick just a smart tactic. In chi sao there are what I would call tricks that work well in chi sao but have little or no value in fighting.


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## LFJ (Aug 12, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> In chi sao there are what I would call tricks that work well in chi sao but have little or no value in fighting.



Then they have little or no value in fight training. Why do it at all?


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## yak sao (Aug 12, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> "don't fight the limbs, fight the persons balance and COG".



This should be posted on the wall of every wing chun school.


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## Danny T (Aug 12, 2015)

LFJ said:


> Then they have little or no value in fight training. Why do it at all?


As I already stated "tricks are fun" and I agree with you on if they have little to no value in fight training why do it at all however, there are a lot of practitioners who simply like 'fun'. Problem arises when it is passed on to students not knowing the difference and suddenly the training fails under pressure because it was fun training and not good fight training.


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## JPinAZ (Aug 12, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> When I use the inside pak sau sure there is a risk like you mentioned and I have already calculated it and I'm  ready for him to try to hit me with his other hand.If he tries that pak hand is already traveling twords him and will intercept his attack. It will work if the timing is right,so far I have gotten away with it but when they try to use it on my I usually nail them with it. So,although I agree in general it is not the safest technique for myself I can so far pull it off. Is it good to train in Chi Sau? I would say yes but not to a beginner. I explore what I can and cant do and what works for me,so that is how I evaluate and determine what I will and wont use. I think when you take two people who know the same system have about the same level of training and skill, It is the persons who thinks outside the box IMO that will be the winner. The unexpected and unpredictable is a hard thing to deal with...



Sounds like you are advocating relying on speed and luck to pull this off?? Doesn't sound very high percentage to me. It is good to hear you admit this isn't the best idea and up till now you've 'gotten away from it'. Have you been able to pull this off against anyone besides a beginner student outside of your lineage?
In my experience, this lucky-time frame technique-level thinking will lead to a lot of problems against anyone with even a little skill and good fwd energy on the bridge you just abandoned to pull this off (I would call it a trick myself).


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## geezer (Aug 12, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> ...One of my favorite tricks when it comes to that is, "don't fight the limbs, fight the persons balance and COG".



You mean like last Sunday when you threw me back onto that bench? Yes, that was definitely a "teachable moment!" The kind that makes the 30 mile drive to practice worth it.


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## geezer (Aug 12, 2015)

nn





JPinAZ said:


> Sounds like you are advocating relying on speed and luck to pull this off?? Doesn't sound very high percentage to me....



Maybe not just "speed and luck". Also there is experience and reading an opponent, spotting his weaknesses and so forth. And if you do that well, you _can_ still have a high percentage of success with such a move.

The problem in Futsau's clip, as I see it, is that he is fighting _*subjectively*_, looking for and guessing about his opponent's weaknesses. Boxers and long range fighters do this all the time and make it work.

But Wing Chun, and especially WC Chi Sau, is about having _actual bridge to bridge contact _with your opponent and directly feeling and exploiting the openings in his defenses. It should be _*objective. *_An opening is presented and your arms should spring forward and strike. It's not tricks and guesswork, or at least it shouldn't be ...even if you are getting away with it.


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## Jake104 (Aug 12, 2015)

geezer said:


> You mean like last Sunday when you threw me back onto that bench? Yes, that was definitely a "teachable moment!" The kind that makes the 30 mile drive to practice worth it.


Sorry Steve, I'm not a grappler so when you left me a leg I took it.. I just didn't realize how easily we would go down.Thank goodness the bench was there and it turned into a semi-controlled butt plant . It's weird cause as strikers we can control our strikes pretty well, but my locks and throws are not as controlled yet. So I have to really be careful.

But yes that's what I meant.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 12, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Sounds like you are advocating relying on speed and luck to pull this off?? Doesn't sound very high percentage to me. It is good to hear you admit this isn't the best idea and up till now you've 'gotten away from it'. Have you been able to pull this off against anyone besides a beginner student outside of your lineage?
> In my experience, this lucky-time frame technique-level thinking will lead to a lot of problems against anyone with even a little skill and good fwd energy on the bridge you just abandoned to pull this off (I would call it a trick myself).




speed has its place but so does timing and correct use of technique, all three are important. Very little luck is need. I dont believe in luck. Only skill matters..I can pull this technique off very easy with anyone of any level..How do I know,,simple, I have tested it out..I used to train in NYC chinatown for years on all day sat and sundays and take on not only students but all the sifus that where not affaid to train public for all to see,,What I do on video is to convey knowledge not to show what I can do..


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## LFJ (Aug 13, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I can pull this technique off very easy with anyone of any level..



 Woo!~~


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## Phobius (Aug 13, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> speed has its place but so does timing and correct use of technique...



Just wanted to add my thoughts here. Since video was not well centered this is simply a comment open for debate.

It seems like you shift speed from slow to fast during chi sao. If your opponent goes at 50% speed same as you, the moment you speed up to 80-100% you will give yourself a huge advantage not only in reaction time but also movement as well. It always takes time, no matter the skill, for your opponent to react in accelerated speed. A sort of numbness that I believe only a select few grandmasters may probably have mastered. As a student at least I know I constantly fall into this pit against those I train with, sort of a trick of theirs.

Also with him having forward intent it seems you may be pushing opponent hand off center, what would then prevent him from using his forward intent and your sidewards motion to move in from underneath your arm in a circular motion?


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## JPinAZ (Aug 13, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> speed has its place but so does timing and correct use of technique, all three are important. Very little luck is need. I dont believe in luck. Only skill matters..*I can pull this technique off very easy with anyone of any level.*.How do I know,,simple, I have tested it out..I used to train in NYC chinatown for years on all day sat and sundays and take on not only students but all the sifus that where not affaid to train public for all to see,,What I do on video is to convey knowledge not to show what I can do..



Lol, woah, someone's eaten their Wheaties this morning - that's a pretty tall order! Really, _anyone _of_ any skill level?!?  _Haha, it gets better by the second! Just so we're clear, you are now saying to everyone here that you can best everyone out there with this 'move' (which includes all of the members on this forum)?? 
I'm assuming you are telling what you feel is the truth. And since you're feeling pretty confident today, you should have no problem also sharing here who all of these NYC Chinatown 'sifus' you've already easily handled with this? Just so we all know you're not full of BS, cause you're wearing some pretty big britches right now 

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I re-watching the clip, and it doesn't help the case much that this 'works on everyone of any level'. Every time this 'move' is pulled off in the clip, the 'opponent' freezes. And, he even goes a step further and usually drops his free hand away allowing this technique to work. I agree, with years and years of practice, speed and timing against people of lesser skill, this will surely work! But then a lot of things will work under those parameters.
But in my experience, even a one year student with good fwd intent on_ both_ bridges will be punching with the free hand as soon as the bridge is abandoned. This is covered in a very basic WC concept, Lut Sau Jik Chun. I'm sure the OP has heard of this idea...
In the case of the clip, he's abandoning a bridge and trading off 2 hands of offense/defense for one hand of offense while the opponent now has a free hand with which to attack back (or defend the incoming shot if he choses)!!


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 17, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Lol, woah, someone's eaten their Wheaties this morning - that's a pretty tall order! Really, _anyone _of_ any skill level?!?  _Haha, it gets better by the second! Just so we're clear, you are now saying to everyone here that you can best everyone out there with this 'move' (which includes all of the members on this forum)??
> I'm assuming you are telling what you feel is the truth. And since you're feeling pretty confident today, you should have no problem also sharing here who all of these NYC Chinatown 'sifus' you've already easily handled with this? Just so we all know you're not full of BS, cause you're wearing some pretty big britches right now
> 
> ------------
> ...




I'm not a big fan of name calling but I will share a public picture that was taken not by me, but a well known Weng Chun sifu in Brooklyn. This is the main park I would get together and train with many sifu's from  diverse styles. This is only a small sample on this particular weekend that showed up..


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## geezer (Aug 17, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I'm not a big fan of *name calling* but I will share a public picture...



You mean _name dropping?_ Yeah, that's annoying and never impressed me either. I think we all agree it's "what you can do, not who you know".

On the other hand, I understand JP's response to the way you worded that statement about being able to pull off that technique on anybody regardless of level. It did sound a little arrogant considering that we all know people who would be difficult to sucker with that technique. For example, I wouldn't try it on a large, powerful, and long-armed individual with a lot of experience like, for example, Emin Boztepe. Of course you are welcome to give it a shot.

Perhaps it's best to just say that you have had considerable success with it against some tough and skilled opponents, and leave it at that.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 17, 2015)

geezer said:


> You mean _name dropping?_ Yeah, that's annoying and never impressed me either. I think we all agree it's "what you can do, not who you know".
> 
> On the other hand, I understand JP's response to the way you worded that statement about being able to pull off that technique on anybody regardless of level. It did sound a little arrogant considering that we all know people who would be difficult to sucker with that technique. For example, I wouldn't try it on a large, powerful, and long-armed individual with a lot of experience like, for example, Emin Boztepe. Of course you are welcome to give it a shot.
> 
> Perhaps it's best to just say that you have had considerable success with it against some tough and skilled opponents, and leave it at that.



Yes, your right the word "anyone" is not correct. What I meant was most if not all people I have trained with. I'm not trying to be  arrogant just stating a fact.


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