# Tipping...



## jks9199 (Jun 22, 2008)

I was looking for something else, and tripped across a piece on tipping here. 
A couple of highlights:


> *Hotel staff*
> 
> There are a number of staff members at the hotel that can make your stay very pleasant or a living nightmare depending on how you tip them. Heres who you should tip and how much to give them:
> 
> ...





> *The restaurant waiter/waitress*
> 
> This is the one that causes most debate because there is no hard and fast rule. It is also made even more difficult by waiting staff who have lost sight of the fact that a tip is a gratuity and is not actually required. As a guideline though, Id say you can safely use the following without a disgruntled waiter spitting in your salad:
> 
> ...





> There are some occasions where you feel unjustified to give out a tip, but let me tell you why you should.
> 
> *The food was terrible.* If the food was terrible, then complain to the manager (you might get a discount on the bill) but dont take away the tip from the waiting staff because youre punishing them for someone elses mistake. Chances are they worked very hard for you and to not reward them would be unfavourable.
> *The service was below par.* If the service was below par then you should tip at a lower rate than normal. Usually, Id speak to the waiter Im tipping and politely explain the reasons for the lower tip. Just make sure youve eaten all your food before you tell them!
> *You are a stingy and grumpy old man.* So you dont want to tip. Why not? Youre rewarding someone for doing good work. How would you feel if your boss decided to not give you the pay raise youve been asking for or taking your bonus away from you just because he felt like it? As the old saying goes, Treat other people the way you expect to be treated yourself.


Now, I've worked as a waiter, janitor, and "night houseman" in a hotel.  I've got some appreciation for the jobs involved... and the pay often involved.

But I'm sick of the proliferation of tip jars and people who expect to be tipped.  A waiter, bartender, or other job where tipping is routine gets a token wage, and is supposed to earn their actual income through the money given in exchange for quality service.  (I think this is kind of dumb, too... but that's actually another discussion, just commission sales.)  So I tip them, according to the service received, and I don't penalize a waiter for kitchen mistakes; I know the difference between poor service and a kitchen screw up.  And, in fact, I probably tend to tip pretty generously -- since I've been there myself!  

But why the hell should I tip the idiot who pours my coffee at Starbucks or wherever?  Especially since I take my coffee black, no shots, no steamed milk, just coffee!  Since when was a hotel housekeeper a tipped position, unless they're doing something beyond the norm?  I mean, if I'm in a hotel, and we make a huge mess or something -- yeah, I can see a tip there.  But to just make up the bed, put out a new towel, etc?  Why should I be tipping the guy at Subway for making my sandwich?  They're getting the wages they agreed on, and I'll bet dollars to donut holes that they ain't reporting that tip income, like a waiter has to do.

Then there's the whole "added gratuity for large parties" issue.  I understand why, especially with kids.  And I even recall one group that was clearly an office party that worked me pretty hard, and barely tipped 10% after they haggled over who had what...  But it's pretty insulting for a group of cops to get an automatic gratuity because there are 9 of us in the group... at a buffet!  (Yeah, that server got the percentage added, and nothing more.  Probably would have gotten more had they not done that...)

I'm just sick of all these tip jars showing up everywhere I go.  Or maybe I need to add a tip jar to my cruiser?


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## terryl965 (Jun 22, 2008)

I totally agree, a new Mc Donalds just open and what the helltheu have a tip jar for all employee's. This is a freaking MCD not a regular seat down diner. Society has got this all backwards as always.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 22, 2008)

I so thoroughly agree.  Does the Queen tip me because I make sure the lights of Buckingham Palace stay on?  Or how about the PM in Number 10?

People should be paid a wage commensurate with what they do in the country within which they are resident.

The whole 'tipping' malarkey is a device via which the prices on the menu are kept down and the guilt laid on us as consumers is the device via which staff wages are kept down.

How on earth did "here's a little something for yourself because you'e been great" become this "Thou shalt tip or there will be body fluids where you do not want them!"?


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## newGuy12 (Jun 22, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> But why the hell should I tip the idiot who pours my coffee at Starbucks or wherever?



In my opinion there is a huge difference between Starbucks and ANYWHERE else.  I, for one, don't drink Starbucks coffee, period.  If Madonna called me on the phone and said, "Hey, you come meet me at Starbucks", I would say, "how about somewhere else?"  If she said, "No, Starbucks.", I would say, "I can't make it, sorry."



jks9199 said:


> Especially since I take my coffee black, no shots, no steamed milk, just coffee!



If someone just stops in somewhere for coffee once in a while, that's one thing, but, if someone stops in the same, righteous coffee house time and again, as a matter of course, then, maybe they want to "grease the wheels", "show the love", you know, help the kids out.  I do, because I fancy these nice coffee houses.  It it convenient to meet people there for any type of get-together or discuss anything.

I one time bought a cheap pizza, it was $5.00 give or take.  I took it up to the coffee house and told the young people working there, "Are you guys hungry, here, you eat this."  Hahaha!  They thought I hung the moon.  I could have dropped a $50.00 bill in the till and not gotten the respect I got then!

They would see me and always greet me, say "Hi", here, we got your coffee, for sure!

But if anyone just stops in any joint to get coffee, just because they are in the neighborhood and are not a regular, then, right -- just pour the coffee, tipping is not so expected, I would not think.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 22, 2008)

Personally, (and call me a jerk if you please) I feel that tipping is WAY overrated.  Now, I do tip at restaurants, but I tip solely based on service.  I encounter many people who will say that 15% is REQUIRED.  basically you're wrong if you don't tip 15% regardless of service and incidentally most of the people who say that either make excuses for the waitstaff (oh, they must have had a hard day, this is a hard job, etc) or say that since they have worked in the industry, they tip more.  

My first point is that when you get a job in a restaurant, I'm sorry....but you should KNOW that people are going to be jerks to you, that you will be on your feet all day, that you will work hard with not too many breaks, and that people may not tip.  I don't see that as a reason to be a jerk to the customer or to give bad service.  If you work in a restaurant, I say be nice and smile....its your job to be nice and smile.  If someone expects a tip from me, they will be nice and smile - and serve me in a reasonable amount of time.  

Next, I understand having worked in restaurants and therefore feeling for the staff, but by tipping regardless of service, I feel that we are perpetuating bad service!  Waitstaff will never see that if they don't serve well, they don't get tips.

Last, I refuse to be "bullied" into tipping.  You are often told - tip or they will spit in your food, tip or they won't change your sheets, tip or they will screw up your bill, etc etc etc.  Well, it is a service industry....I should not have to tip to prevent my food from being defiled.  Luckily, I'll eat anything!  

So I am one of those jerks that will give no tip or only a few cents if the service did not warrant a tip.  In most cases, I look at it from the Military awards perspective.  You don't get an award for doing your job.  You get a reward for going above and beyond your job.  


...........and that's how I feel about tipping..............


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## MBuzzy (Jun 22, 2008)

Also - tipping is not a worldwide thing.  In Korea, there IS NOT tipping....in fact, most places WILL NOT TAKE IT.  They just think you gave them the wrong amount.  In Kuwait, it is the same.  I am sure there are many other countries where tipping is not required OR expected.


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## Archangel M (Jun 22, 2008)

How about when an establishment automatically includes the gratuity on your bill? THAT always pisses me off.


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## Kacey (Jun 22, 2008)

About 25 years ago, I went to a restaurant with a couple of my friends (we were all 16 or 17 years old), and were the only the customers in the restaurant - back when "food bars" (extended salad bars) were very popular - so all the server had to do was bring drinks, which she did; we asked for ketchup, which we never got, as the server was busy talking to the hostess and ignoring us, so we never got drink refills, either.  We each carefully left a penny, so she would know we knew enough to tip, and filled out comment cards about why we'd never come back.

As has been said, too many people think that tipping is mandatory - and it's not.  Yes, waitstaff have a lower minimum wage on the assumption that they will get tips - but if they perform poorly, they will get paid a commensurate rate.  They can then either improve their service, or find a different type of job; it sounds harsh, but that's the nature of the business.

As far as other service personnel who put out tip jars - they're welcome to do so, but they have to do something truly exceptional before I will give them tips.


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## jks9199 (Jun 22, 2008)

newGuy12 said:


> In my opinion there is a huge difference between Starbucks and ANYWHERE else.  I, for one, don't drink Starbucks coffee, period.  If Madonna called me on the phone and said, "Hey, you come meet me at Starbucks", I would say, "how about somewhere else?"  If she said, "No, Starbucks.", I would say, "I can't make it, sorry."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, because you've basically given into extortion, you get better service than I do?  Or is it because you've simply kissed up to these kids more than I have?  

Sorry, they're pouring coffee.  I ain't tipping them.  (One exception; I do generally drop the cost of a cup into the tip jar if they don't charge me when I'm in uniform.)

I tip waiters, bartenders, my barber (Hey, the man plays with sharp stuff around my head where I can't see him.  I want him happy!) and a few others.  I've tipped people for doing something that wasn't their job -- or at least tried.  I asked a handyman doing some work at a neighbor's house if I could borrow his ladder to clear my gutter, and rather than me using his ladder -- he did it.  He even refused the $20 I tried to give him for the 10 minutes or so it took...  

I'm really getting tempted to call on managers or owners of some these places (like MC-FRIGGING-DONALDS) that are growing tip jars.  And I do go out of my way to patronize a couple of short order type places that have posted "NO TIPPING."


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## jks9199 (Jun 22, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Next, I understand having worked in restaurants and therefore feeling for the staff, but by tipping regardless of service, I feel that we are perpetuating bad service!  Waitstaff will never see that if they don't serve well, they don't get tips.


I don't disagree; I just know that I'm more likely to be more tolerant or generous about what I tip for decent service.  I'm also less tolerant of poor service...


> Last, I refuse to be "bullied" into tipping.  You are often told - tip or they will spit in your food, tip or they won't change your sheets, tip or they will screw up your bill, etc etc etc.  Well, it is a service industry....I should not have to tip to prevent my food from being defiled.  Luckily, I'll eat anything!



See, I have a simple approach to that.  

I'll file criminal charges.  In fact, if I can show they knew I was cop -- the charges can get nastier!

And I'll sick the Alcohol & Beverage Control agents, health department, and others on the business, too.

(There is a Dominos I won't order or eat from...  We ended up in possession of some photos of employees doing some things that I won't describe on the counters after hours...  Not quite John Waters/Pink Flamingos level -- but stuff you don't really want to know!)


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 22, 2008)

Sounds like a Burger King I worked at a decade ago....one of the gals was known as the Whopper Queen...was full service on the whopper area if ya follow....place was also an OSHA nightmare, a drug center, etc. but that's another story.

I tip at restraunts, when the service is good. When it isn't I don't. I'm usually rather vocal about why too. I don't frequent high end places so don't have to worry about tipping the matre-d, and I ain't tipping the hostess at the local Greek place (though I did offer her a glamour shoot 'time-for-prints')

One buffet I used to frequent got a new crew of dish collectors. When theysarted following me out the door asking where their tips were, I stopped going. Management said they were "manditory". I beg to differ.

I stopped going to Pizza Hut after 2 experiences there. 1 where I was ignored in an empty dining area and never got any service, another where it took acts of diety to get drink refills.....the latter got her tip, 25 cents, floating on a pizza crust in the pitcher. You don't piss off that  bible club, lol!


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## Drac (Jun 23, 2008)

Dined at a very nice Italiian resturnat in Fla once..I left a nice tip and was heading to the bar when the Manager stopped me...He asked if the meal and service were good and I said they were...He then pointed to the bottom of the menu where it said that tips *MUST* be 15%..I apologized and took the bills out of his hand that I left on the table and exited the building...


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## MJS (Jun 23, 2008)

I always give a good tip when my wife and I go out to a restaurant.  Of course, it always depends on the service but usually its great.   If I have something delivered, ie: a pizza, I give the person a few bucks, usually no more than $5.  I usually don't put anything in tip jars.  There is a local pizza place in the city where I work.  They're usually pretty good about giving discounts to city employees, so I've known some people who have thrown some cash in.  I however, don't really feel its necessary.  I'm not asking them to give me a break, and there have been many times when they didn't give one.  I'm going to pick up the food, so why should I tip?  I don't tip the person at the grocery store that bags for me, nor do I tip the cashier.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 23, 2008)

I never tipped at a buffet before after all I am serving myself so I guess I get the tip.

I don't know why you have to tip as the article says. Even if he had bad service he still tips which I disagree if a server provides bad service no tip.

The tip jars I don't mind so much. If the kid does a good job and service I will give a tip who knows it may rub off on the bad service ones.


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## Drac (Jun 23, 2008)

One of the few times I tipped excessively was when I first moved to Fla and joined a Yacht Club that offered memberships for the purposes of drinking in the Members Only section..I tipped the parking valet upon arriving and leaving..As a result my cherry triple black 1977 Olds Regency 98 Brougham was parked up front along with the Rolls, Vettes and other exotics...Yes BIG EGO back in them days


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## jkembry (Jun 23, 2008)

I agree with MBuzzy...tipping is not a worldwide thing.  Having visited well over 40 countries while in the Navy, I have been to countries where tipping is not expected and I have been in some countries where the gratuity is already on the check and that is the only pay the wait staff gets (however if you want to tip on top of that you may...but again it is not expected.

I, too, can't stand tip jars that assume you want to tip.  I don't mind tipping, but my tips are certainly based on the service that I get at a particular place.  I have gone as high as 20 - 25% tip for the 1st mate on a fishing charter and have gone as low as 0% for dreadful service at a restaurant.

Another gripe I have is when the wait staff ask if you want change back.  That one usually knocks 5% off the tip.

- Jeff -


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## Kacey (Jun 23, 2008)

jkembry said:


> Another gripe I have is when the wait staff ask if you want change back.  That one usually knocks 5% off the tip.


At least they _asked_ - I was in one restaurant where the server _assumed_ I didn't want coins back; I gave her $20 for a $10.50 bill (didn't have any change) and she brought back $9 instead of $9.50... sadly for her, had she brought back all of my change, she'd have gotten a larger tip (her service had been good, and I would have left her $1.50 to $2) - but she chose to assume that the coins were hers, so I wrote her a note telling her that she had chosen to accept a lower tip by assuming the coins were hers, and left nothing else.

Now, she was a trainee - so my _guess _was that whoever was training her had had a regular customer who had given the server training her standing directions to keep coins, and the trainer had not differentiated between regulars who gave such directions and other customers - so I called the manager and explained what I had done, and why, and that it wasn't that I was displeased with her service up to that point - she'd done well until she decided to not give me all of my change.  He thanked me for the feedback, promised to talk to her, and gave me a free meal for calling.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2008)

A most pleasing insight into the workings of the 'system', *Kacey*.  Good that the manager was responsive too.


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## Drac (Jun 23, 2008)

When traveling I always tip the maid and never want for extra coffee packs and towels.


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## mrhnau (Jun 23, 2008)

Kacey said:


> At least they _asked_ - I was in one restaurant where the server _assumed_ I didn't want coins back; I gave her $20 for a $10.50 bill (didn't have any change) and she brought back $9 instead of $9.50...


I've had the opposite happen too. Instead of getting back $9.50, I got back $10. Their tip was appropriately increased


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## girlbug2 (Jun 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I
> But I'm sick of the proliferation of tip jars and people who expect to be tipped. A waiter, bartender, or other job where tipping is routine gets a token wage, and is supposed to earn their actual income through the money given in exchange for quality service. (I think this is kind of dumb, too... but that's actually another discussion, just commission sales.) So I tip them, according to the service received, and I don't penalize a waiter for kitchen mistakes; I know the difference between poor service and a kitchen screw up. And, in fact, I probably tend to tip pretty generously -- since I've been there myself!
> 
> But why the hell should I tip the idiot who pours my coffee at Starbucks or wherever? Especially since I take my coffee black, no shots, no steamed milk, just coffee! Since when was a hotel housekeeper a tipped position, unless they're doing something beyond the norm? I mean, if I'm in a hotel, and we make a huge mess or something -- yeah, I can see a tip there. But to just make up the bed, put out a new towel, etc? Why should I be tipping the guy at Subway for making my sandwich? They're getting the wages they agreed on, and I'll bet dollars to donut holes that they ain't reporting that tip income, like a waiter has to do.
> ...


 
I generally follow the guidelines in the article (although I have never had my car valet'd, because I'm against the whole idea of handing over my vehicle to a complete stranger just because he may be wearing a uniform).

Regarding restaurant service, as a former waitperson myself I will make the following observations:

1. it was not my restaurant's policy to include a gratuity for large parties and more times than not the servers were seriously undertipped as a result -- the whole "ok everyone divvy up what you owe" system resulted in people badly miscalculating tip and tax. At least I hope it was not done deliberately. The worst offenders by reputation were the "church groups" who came in for pie and coffee on sundays or after bible study or whatever. Let me tell you, getting their orders right is an art in itself, what with everybody special requesting how their slice should be prepared (the server's job, not the kitchen staff btw) and of course all the refills. Then you maybe get 10%, perhaps supplemented by a few tracts. Lovely.

2. I would be completely against including gratuity in the check for any officers in uniform -- what an insult. Plus in my experience they're better tippers anyway

3. If somebody is on a tight budget and "can't afford" a proper 15% tip for reasonable service, there is always McDonald's and the like, where tip jars should not rear their ugly heads. (So far I haven't seen tip jars at local fast food restaurants, but if I do, I might leave a note in them explaining why I left no tip).

4. If somebody has trouble calculating 15%, there are calculators and even tip guides the size of credit cards that fit nicely in the wallet. Get one.

5. If somebody made an honest mistake and ran out of cash for a proper tip, I would have been understanding if they had handled it nicely. As in, perhaps leaving a note explaining the situation and promising to mail or drop off the tip personally later. In fact, it would've made my day if that had actually happened, but sadly, it never did to me at least.

Once again, and for the record, I hate tip jars generally also. If somebody deserves a tip for going above and beyond, I will hand it to them personally with thanks. If not, no jar is going to coerce me.

Oh, and a question for the group: how do you tip a chambermaid if you don't see her in passing? Do you just leave it laying around and hope she knows it's supposed to be hers? Should I leave it in an envelope with the word "for the housekeeper" or whatever on it? Is there a certain place in the room one is supposed to leave these tips?


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## jks9199 (Jun 23, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> One buffet I used to frequent got a new crew of dish collectors. When theysarted following me out the door asking where their tips were, I stopped going. Management said they were "manditory". I beg to differ.



If "tips" are mandatory -- they ain't tips.  They're service fees, and should be spelled out as such.  I wonder how many buffet places would see a tremendous drop in business if they added a "clearing charge."


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## jks9199 (Jun 23, 2008)

Kacey said:


> At least they _asked_ - I was in one restaurant where the server _assumed_ I didn't want coins back; I gave her $20 for a $10.50 bill (didn't have any change) and she brought back $9 instead of $9.50... sadly for her, had she brought back all of my change, she'd have gotten a larger tip (her service had been good, and I would have left her $1.50 to $2) - but she chose to assume that the coins were hers, so I wrote her a note telling her that she had chosen to accept a lower tip by assuming the coins were hers, and left nothing else.
> 
> ... so I called the manager and explained what I had done, and why, and that it wasn't that I was displeased with her service up to that point - she'd done well until she decided to not give me all of my change.  He thanked me for the feedback, promised to talk to her, and gave me a free meal for calling.





mrhnau said:


> I've had the opposite happen too. Instead of getting back $9.50, I got back $10. Their tip was appropriately increased



When I was a server, I would sometimes (especially if I was short on coins) round up to the nearest dollar when I returned someone's change (in other words, I never shorted their change; I shorted myself).  Never did figure out if it hurt my tips or not -- but it was a practical necessity at times.  And I don't mind someone asking if I want change back IF what I've given is close to a normal tip, like I hand over a $20, and the bill is around $17, or I hand a stack of several bills that the server won't know exactly how much until they count -- it could be $18 on a $17.50 tab, or it could be $21 on that same tab, given as several fives and ones.  But if I hand over a $20 on a $10 tab...  Yeah, I want change back.  

On contacting management in restaurants -- the Washington Post's food critic has an occasional column about how to handle situations in restaurants.  One thing I've noted is that the managers or owners are often all too happy to do what they can to make something right, if only they're told about it!  Now, I can't say that the critic contacting them isn't influencing the decision -- but I remember several that the person complaining admits they never told anyone of the problem at the time.  If you don't tell 'em, how can they fix it?

Regarding tipping housemaids -- more and more places I've stayed in lately are kindly providing an envelope for you to do so.  I've even found nice cards wishing me a good stay...


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## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2008)

I've worked for tips and had to make a living off of them. Waiting tables, delivering pizzas, baggage check at the airport and so on. 
Tipping is very important for a lot of people. Those (here) who said that it's over-rated, take a moment and think about what those wait-staff are making per hour... far less than minimum wage... sometimes by half. They can work all day and get half the paycheck that a regular McDonalds worker makes for the same amount of (physical work)... even if it's a 5 star restaurant. 

If I can afford it I'll tip and even if I can't I'll still try to leave a buck or two on the table when waited upon. 

Tipping actually does bring better service the next time you eat there or if you're a "regular". Case in point; a woman I know was very poor until she remarried a self-made millionaire, prior to that she worked waiting tables and whatever job she could find to support her 3 kids that her abusive and lazy first husband left her with. 
She and I ran some errands together and during the course of the morning/afternoon we stopped in at a nice low key mexican restaurant that she frequented. Her usual waiter was there. Ordering our food and waiting less than 10 minutes it arrived piping hot (steaming off the plate). I took a bite and made a slight face but could live with it. She noticed and did a slight hand gesture and the waiter was ZZZIIIIP! right there! Asked me what was wrong... told him, before I knew it my plate was gone and in five minutes replaced with a fresher one. Glasses were refilled quickly and anything... ANYTHING we asked for got delivered to the table toot-sweet. 

I saw the tip (that she told me later she regularly leaves) for a $17.00+ meal (for the both of us)... a $100.00 bill left on the table with the check, which basically meant.. "keep the change". The guy remembered and upped his service to the point where I honestly believe if she asked him nicely to lick the mud off the soles of her boots he'd drop to his knees and put on a bib and go to work. 

Tipping helps, those who live off them remember those who tip well.


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## exile (Jun 23, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> Oh, and a question for the group: how do you tip a chambermaid if you don't see her in passing? Do you just leave it laying around and hope she knows it's supposed to be hers? Should I leave it in an envelope with the word "for the housekeeper" or whatever on it? Is there a certain place in the room one is supposed to leave these tips?



If we really like the service we've had, we leave the tip under the pillow. The people who change the sheets, clean the bathrooms and so on are the ones we want reward for jobs very well done. If you leave the tip there, they'll find it in the course of stripping down the bed to get the room ready for the next visitors.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 23, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> I've worked for tips and had to make a living off of them. Waiting tables, delivering pizzas, baggage check at the airport and so on.
> Tipping is very important for a lot of people. Those (here) who said that it's over-rated, take a moment and think about what those wait-staff are making per hour... far less than minimum wage... sometimes by half. They can work all day and get half the paycheck that a regular McDonalds worker makes for the same amount of (physical work)... even if it's a 5 star restaurant.


 
I would venture to say that most people realize that the waitstaff doesn't make a lot without tips - which is why I would expect the service to be even better.  It seems to me that if you depend on tips for a living, you would do EVERYTHING in your power to ensure that you got a good tip.

I for one, when I do tip, give a lot.  For good service, >20%....its no $100 bill, but is relatively generous in my opinion.  My range just goes further....for bad service, much lower or nothing.



MA-Caver said:


> I saw the tip (that she told me later she regularly leaves) for a $17.00+ meal (for the both of us)... a $100.00 bill left on the table with the check, which basically meant.. "keep the change". The guy remembered and upped his service to the point where I honestly believe if she asked him nicely to lick the mud off the soles of her boots he'd drop to his knees and put on a bib and go to work.
> 
> Tipping helps, those who live off them remember those who tip well.


 
What my big problem with this is that everyone should get that kind of service...you shouldn't have to pay for it.  Because I can't afford to give a $100 tip, I have to wait 30 mins or get cold food?  (not meant to be a jab at your friend in any way)  The other problem that I see; even at the restaurants I go to frequently, they generally don't remember who you are, even after leaving a big tip - unless its a REAL big tip.  So the bigger tips, don't necessarily guarantee you good service the next time.

Honestly, if I could go into my favorite restaurant and give someone $200 bucks for incredible service every time I went in....I would.  But it doesn't work like that.  I still get GREAT waiters and TERRIBLE waiters, within a week of each other.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> I would venture to say that most people realize that the waitstaff doesn't make a lot without tips - which is why I would expect the service to be even better.  It seems to me that if you depend on tips for a living, you would do EVERYTHING in your power to ensure that you got a good tip.
> 
> I for one, when I do tip, give a lot.  For good service, >20%....its no $100 bill, but is relatively generous in my opinion.  My range just goes further....for bad service, much lower or nothing.
> 
> ...



Well, the problem is... when I waited tables at a 3 star restaurant I busted my butt but was only rewarded (tips... GOOD tips) every 3rd or 4th table. After doing 50 to 75 tables a night during an 6 hour shift and only getting roughly a 1/3rd of the gratitude for providing the good service that I gave... night after night... well the motivation factor wasn't there. Understandably not every night is going to net me $50-100 cash but when I'm bringing home $25 or less a night and I got rent and utilities to pay and all of that... ehhh. 
My manager told me frequently how people just praised my service... I couldn't help but say... well they're not "showing" it. All I got was a sympathetic nod. 

My friend who eeked out a living before remarrying was simply being sympathetic in the best way she could. She knew from experience that she might have helped that waiter make his rent and car payments or whatever. She knew that not everyone tips and not everyone tips like they should/could. She basically was making up for it. I saw that and knew what she was doing. Wasn't showing off it was doing her part to make another person's life better at a meager job. She in turn gets the extra special treatment as a "thank you". Each customer in effect is an employer. The manager of the restaurant simply provides you with a place to do your job. 
Same as anyone else would if their job paid them *very* well or you got a extra bonus for working your butt off. 
If you were/are a Martial Arts instructor and someone paid you an extra $1000.00 a month for teaching them are you going to treat them like every other student? Or are they going to get that intense private instruction during off hours?


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## MBuzzy (Jun 23, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Well, the problem is... when I waited tables at a 3 star restaurant I busted my butt but was only rewarded (tips... GOOD tips) every 3rd or 4th table. After doing 50 to 75 tables a night during an 6 hour shift and only getting roughly a 1/3rd of the gratitude for providing the good service that I gave... night after night... well the motivation factor wasn't there. Understandably not every night is going to net me $50-100 cash but when I'm bringing home $25 or less a night and I got rent and utilities to pay and all of that... ehhh.
> My manager told me frequently how people just praised my service... I couldn't help but say... well they're not "showing" it. All I got was a sympathetic nod.


 
Now this I think is the root of the bad service problem.  Enough people don't give a tip and eventually the servers just stop caring.  You're completely justified in feeling ripped off in this case and I have no respect for someone who refuses to tip regardless of good service.  I do think that a tip should be given if the service is good.  I just don't think that it is required if service is bad.



MA-Caver said:


> My friend who eeked out a living before remarrying was simply being sympathetic in the best way she could. She knew from experience that she might have helped that waiter make his rent and car payments or whatever. She knew that not everyone tips and not everyone tips like they should/could. She basically was making up for it. I saw that and knew what she was doing. Wasn't showing off it was doing her part to make another person's life better at a meager job. She in turn gets the extra special treatment as a "thank you". Each customer in effect is an employer. The manager of the restaurant simply provides you with a place to do your job.
> Same as anyone else would if their job paid them *very* well or you got a extra bonus for working your butt off.
> If you were/are a Martial Arts instructor and someone paid you an extra $1000.00 a month for teaching them are you going to treat them like every other student? Or are they going to get that intense private instruction during off hours?


 
I think that the root of the difference in the way that we think of things is that I think of the tip as reward for doing a good job.  Meaning that everyone should get the best treatment and then be tipped according to their performance.  Of course, the problem is that some people don't hold up their end of the bargain - on both sides.

I don't know if I would accept $1000 extra per month from a student without a specific written agreement.  In that case, I would be worried about favoritism.  In a class like that, everyone should get EQUAL treatment, they are all paying equally - and if someone tried to pay extra, I couldn't morally accept it, since it would look like favoritism.  If someone wanted to pay for extra lessons, that would be different.

That is true in other industries as well, many companies offer bonuses, but they are not guaranteed, they are rewarded for exceptional work.

I completely understand the case of your friend.  I have known many people like that, who used to work in restaurants and got other jobs making more money.  I definately think that what they do is a GREAT things.  Many servers deserve the extra money, and many need it, so it is a great act of kindness and a great thing.

My stance is simply that their job is to provide the best service possible, so someone who gives exceptional tips shouldn't get any better service, since that would mean that the server in question is intentionally withholding good service from other customers because they don't tip as well.


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## Kacey (Jun 23, 2008)

It's very rare that I reduce the tip - I take into consideration how busy the place is, how many tables/customers the server has, etc. - but if the service is poor, then yes, I will tip less, usually 10% instead of 17% (that's double our tax rate, so it's really easy to figure - and I usually round up).  If the service is poor enough for me to reduce the tip, I'll usually say something as well - depending on how busy the place is, I will either talk to the manager on the way out, or call later.  I don't eat out enough at sit-down restaurants to be a "regular", so that's not part of my consideration.  You do a good job, I show my appreciation with a better tip; you do a poor job, I show my lack of appreciation with a poor tip.  If you are on the extreme end of service (good or bad) your manager will hear from me, either in frustration or appreciation.

Also, ever since I heard of a restaurant chain charging wait staff the fee credit card chains charge them when the tip was included in the bill, I've left cash instead of including the tip on the bill whenever I could (I usually use my debit card instead of carrying a lot of cash).

As a general thing, I ignore tip jars in places where tips are not customary unless someone truly goes above and beyond - and then I will give the tip to the person who helped me directly, not put it in the jar.  If that person chooses to put the tip in the jar, that's up to them (or, possibly, company policy - but I can't help that).  And again... I'll call the manager.


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## exile (Jun 23, 2008)

It's interesting to compare tipping in North America with what happens in Europe. We've lived in various parts of Europe for extended periods, particularly Germany, and what I've noticed there (works in France and Holland as well) is that you tip much less&#8212;usually just whatever change is left over: a proper bar tip for a &#8364;19.25 tab leaves &#8364;.75 on the table after you hand over two tenners. Leave much more and the staff will try to give it back to you&#8212;they really don't understand what you're doing (at least, in places which don't run much on a tourism economy). It took me a while, but eventually I learned that large tips don't make sense to restaurant service people in many European venues, except as a kind of ethnographic fact about North American tourists and vistors. It's one more giveaway that you're Not From There.

I was curious about this, so I pursued it with friends of mine who were natives of the place. Their explanation was twofold: first, the overall level of social 'safety net' services is high enough that people's basic survival needs are met&#8212;they aren't up against the wall at the end (or even at the beginning) of every month. So they feel much less need to haul you upside down by your ankles and shake you till all the money in your pockets falls out onto the floor. Second, waiters in Europe are given a good deal higher status than they are here&#8212;particular in France and Germany. They're regarded almost as semi-professionals. They're well paid and view their work as a kind of craftsmanship. For the same reason, they don't indulge in that kind of smarmy, ingratiating behavior that I just _hate_ in restaurants, where waiters now introduce themselves to you, tell you a little bit about their family and biography, give you a bit of insight on their life goals and aspirations, sketch out the plot of the novel they're working on,.... and expect you to do the same thing. Just _try_ to find a waiter in a Paris bistro who'll tell you much more about themselves than whether s/he thinks the house Côtes de Rhône is a good match with the duck...


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## jkembry (Jun 23, 2008)

Exile...you hit the nail on the head.  I lived in Germany for 3 year (Bavaria to be specific) and the tip was usually what coin change was left.  After I married a lady who happen to work at a Gasthaus, I learned that gratuity was already calculated into the price of the meal...and it stated so on the menu.  That was over 20 years ago, so things may have changed.  I noticed similar things in Nederlands, Austria and France as well.

- Jeff -


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## jks9199 (Jun 23, 2008)

exile said:


> It's interesting to compare tipping in North America with what happens in Europe. We've lived in various parts of Europe for extended periods, particularly Germany, and what I've noticed there (works in France and Holland as well) is that you tip much less&#8212;usually just whatever change is left over: a proper bar tip for a &#8364;19.25 tab leaves &#8364;.75 on the table after you hand over two tenners. Leave much more and the staff will try to give it back to you&#8212;they really don't understand what you're doing (at least, in places which don't run much on a tourism economy). It took me a while, but eventually I learned that large tips don't make sense to restaurant service people in many European venues, except as a kind of ethnographic fact about North American tourists and vistors. It's one more giveaway that you're Not From There.
> 
> I was curious about this, so I pursued it with friends of mine who were natives of the place. Their explanation was twofold: first, the overall level of social 'safety net' services is high enough that people's basic survival needs are met&#8212;they aren't up against the wall at the end (or even at the beginning) of every month. So they feel much less need to haul you upside down by your ankles and shake you till all the money in your pockets falls out onto the floor. Second, waiters in Europe are given a good deal higher status than they are here&#8212;particular in France and Germany. They're regarded almost as semi-professionals. They're well paid and view their work as a kind of craftsmanship. For the same reason, they don't indulge in that kind of smarmy, ingratiating behavior that I just _hate_ in restaurants, where waiters now introduce themselves to you, tell you a little bit about their family and biography, give you a bit of insight on their life goals and aspirations, sketch out the plot of the novel they're working on,.... and expect you to do the same thing. Just _try_ to find a waiter in a Paris bistro who'll tell you much more about themselves than whether s/he thinks the house Côtes de Rhône is a good match with the duck...


I don't mind the waiter telling me their name; it saves the "HEY, YOU!!" or "can you get my server" especially if they've seated you in a station that isn't officially assigned to your server -- but I don't need to know much beyond that.  I remember one place where the server actually sat down at the table while we were ordering!

I had problems as a server because I wasn't (and still am not) the touchy-feely type.  I'd be polite, but not chatty...  In fact, I was counseled by one of the managers on one occasion because of that.


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## exile (Jun 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I don't mind the waiter telling me their name; it saves the "HEY, YOU!!" or "can you get my server" especially if they've seated you in a station that isn't officially assigned to your server -- but I don't need to know much beyond that.  I remember one place where the server actually sat down at the table while we were ordering!
> 
> I had problems as a server because I wasn't (and still am not) the touchy-feely type.  I'd be polite, but not chatty...  *In fact, I was counseled by one of the managers on one occasion because of that.*



I wonder just how much people like your ex-manager actually talk to their customer base (not the regulars, but the occasionals) about whether they like this instant-friendship business from their servers. I have to say, having talked about this problem with my friends, that I can't think of one person I know who enjoys it or is even neutral about it. What everyone I know wants is just what you described: a polite, friendly but not best-buddies-for-life kind of interaction. I kind of get cool and distant when people I don't know switch to aggressive-intimacy mode. 

It's not just restaurant servers who do this. I'm starting to notice that salespeople in certain computer-service places do the same. Was at our local Apple store buying my wife a new laptop yesterday and the guy, in his mid-twenties, persisted in addressing me,  and subsequently my friend, who was dong the same for _his_ wife, as 'buddy'. Pretty early on I had to actively suppress the mental image of myself slamming a chocalate cream pie into the guy's face, because it was beginning to take over my mind...


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## girlbug2 (Jun 23, 2008)

exile said:


> I wonder just how much people like your ex-manager actually talk to their customer base (not the regulars, but the occasionals) about whether they like this instant-friendship business from their servers.
> 
> It's not just restaurant servers who do this. I'm starting to notice that salespeople in certain computer-service places do the same. Was at our local Apple store buying my wife a new laptop yesterday and the guy, in his mid-twenties, persisted in addressing me, and subsequently my friend, who was dong the same for _his_ wife, as 'buddy'. Pretty early on I had to actively suppress the mental image of myself slamming a chocalate cream pie into the guy's face, because it was beginning to take over my mind...


 
LOL Exile I know the feeling!

That brings to mind an experience my husband had a few years back walking into a sporting goods store. The sales clerk acted like he was a long lost friend and started his sales pitch for something calling him "Hey there Big Guy" (husband is a size or two overweight, but does not appreciate being reminded about it esp.from a total stranger.) There was no sale that day.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 23, 2008)

Hey I always try and help everyone out.  When going out to a nice restaurant if the service is good then the tip will be good.  If the service is great then the tip will be great! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  If the service is okay then the tip will be okay and if it is poor (which almost never happens) then the tip will reflect that.  Generally where I eat most of the time the service is great and we are *all happy*.  Happy enough that when I come back they treat me great again. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  In turn I always treat the wait staff like I would want to be treated and that goes along way in getting quality service!


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2008)

It is indeed a cultural divide, Bob.  

It's what I tried to allude to in my earlier post where I stated that staff should be paid a living wage for the job they do.  Tips are a con on both the customer and the staff and I always dislike leaving them.  If service has been excellent, then I will happily thank the person to their face.  But I really hate having extra money wrung from my wallet through what amounts to guilt-leveraged begging.  Make the prices higher and pay the staff properly.

Now I'm much wealthier than I was twenty years ago and have gradually acceeded to the 'Tip culture' some restaurants have imported from across the sea but I still favour restaurants that do not expect such extortion.  I can just imagine the affronted disdain of the distinguished matre'dee at one of my favourite Indian restaurants if I tried to give him a tip!


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## Empty Hands (Jun 24, 2008)

Alright, this board wasn't contentious enough, let's talk about tipping!  After that, perhaps a few threads about circumcision and breast feeding!  Although this thread has actually been remarkably well behaved.  I guess we really ARE different from the rest of the internet.

We, the consumer, are getting the double hit as far as tipping is concerned.  Management is all for it.  The more you tip, the less they pay their servers, and the higher their profits.  Federal minimum wage for restaurant staff is $2.13 an hour!  There is no way management will ever back off on tipping.

On the other side, the wait staff are pushing harder and harder on tipping as well.  Why wouldn't they?  More money for them.  I do notice that all of these articles telling us who and how much to tip or what the "new rate" is are usually written by either restaurant industry groups or the servers themselves.  IOW, not uninterested parties.  Apparently, the "new rate" for "standard" service is now supposed to be 18%, with 15% for poor service.

It is all so dishonest and inefficient, and all of the benefits, in the end, accrue to the owners, not the consumers.  Not that that will change anything, of course.

For my part, I always tip 15-20% for good service.  It may be a racket, but the servers are still only being paid $2.13 an hour by the restaurant.


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## Nolerama (Jun 25, 2008)

There are two coffee shops in my area. One pays its employees above minimum wage around $11 an hour, with benefits and paid vacation. The other pays its employees minimum wage.

They both have pretty much the same product... And both include tip jars.

However, in the case of the first coffe shop, the employees have taken ownership of their jobs and are more inclined to be friendly and maintain regulars and a community.

They get my tip (usually 30%), even after paying an arm and a leg for a coffee drink. In fact, I treat it like tipping at a bar, where I usually tip $1 a drink. (former service industry rat here... they do end up taking care of you over time)

The second place barely gets my spare change. I get poor service because the person behind the counter never looks me in the eye. And service with a friendly smile is non existent. In fact this morning, they dropped my muffin on the floor and tried to pass it off as fresh.

It's not professional. That's the key in my book.

People are more motivated to be professional when they are treated as professionals by the owner of the establishment. The demeanor of the first coffee shop employees pays off in terms of tip cash and overall positivity; they're proud of where they work and what they do.

I think it's something we've lost in the US: Pride in one's job. I think that's due in part to a company not really caring about its employees.

BTW... never get your car valeted in a parking garage (Central Parking Co.). I paid 45 bucks (3 hours) in Philly and waited an hour until they found my rental containing my Mom's insulin... Then the odorific, sweaty valet demanded a tip... And that stuff from Ferris Bueller's Day off with the valets... (I used to valet, and saw this happen) actually happens. I've seen guys take off in a Porsche to get McDonalds... And root through the glove box.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 27, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> BTW... never get your car valeted in a parking garage (Central Parking Co.). I paid 45 bucks (3 hours) in Philly and waited an hour until they found my rental containing my Mom's insulin... Then the odorific, sweaty valet demanded a tip... *And that stuff from Ferris Bueller's Day off with the valets... (I used to valet, and saw this happen) actually happens.* I've seen guys take off in a Porsche to get McDonalds... And root through the glove box.


 
I Knew It !!


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