# Non martial artists teaching children to punch and karate 'chop'



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2017)

Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.

 The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)

Knowing young children they will put a lot of force into their punching and will carry on doing outside the unit. Guiding says it wants to introduce girls to new sports ( not against that) so if anyone is interested the instructors will have a nice time re-teaching them to punch.

Is it just me who isn't happy about people who have no idea about martial arts teaching a class on 'karate' thinking they know what it is and how to do it? 


This is the page advertising the activity. It looks good I think to leaders and non martial artists but would you do gymnastics or Judo the same way? It also looks innocuous I know and it might just be me being protective of the young girls wrists etc. I know many won't teach children as young as this age group anyway. Ok please fire away and tell me I'm worrying over nothing!!!!


----------



## jobo (Jul 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
> Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.
> 
> The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)
> ...



I think punching balloons is a safe activerty. The way its going all the kids will be encased in bubble wrap until they are 18.

have you told them that doing the brownie salute might bring on an RSI?


----------



## Martial D (Jul 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
> Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.
> 
> The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)
> ...


I think you have a point. I think karate is great for kids in that it teaches discipline and respect, and offers an alternative to the screens and potato chips. 

But if they are going to do it,they should do it right, or people could get hurt. Not only that, it's very bad form to advertise something as 'karate'(or anything else) when it isn't.


----------



## jobo (Jul 21, 2017)

Martial D said:


> I think you have a point. I think karate is great for kids in that it teaches discipline and respect, and offers an alternative to the screens and potato chips.
> 
> But if they are going to do it,they should do it right, or people could get hurt. Not only that, it's very bad form to advertise something as 'karate'(or anything else) when it isn't.


those ninja turtles got away with that for years


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> I think punching balloons is a safe activerty. The way its going all the kids will be encased in bubble wrap until they are 18.
> 
> have you told them that doing the brownie salute might bring on an RSI?



Well,  wouldn't expect you to actually understand. In Guiding we don't wrap girls up in cottonwool, we do a lot of adventurous activities BUT we have proper qualified instructors. We do climbing, canoeing, adventure training, camping ( cooking on fires no cookers etc) it's not too much to expect that if we have qualified instructors for all other sports and activities that we also have them for 'karate' 

Oh and it's not a 'salute', it's the Guide sign and one doesn't do it continuously for an hour or more.


----------



## jobo (Jul 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Well,  wouldn't expect you to actually understand. In Guiding we don't wrap girls up in cottonwool, we do a lot of adventurous activities BUT we have proper qualified instructors. We do climbing, canoeing, adventure training, camping ( cooking on fires no cookers etc) it's not too much to expect that if we have qualified instructors for all other sports and activities that we also have them for 'karate'
> 
> Oh and it's not a 'salute', it's the Guide sign and one doesn't do it continuously for an hour or more.


there not actually doing karate though are they? They are messing about punching ballons, what level of instructed is required for that, maybe a 4th dan would do at a push, as long as they all wear gum shields and head gear and keep a fire extinguisher handy in case one of the rainbows spontaneously combusts with excitment


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> there not actually doing karate though are they? They are messing about punching ballons, what level of instructed is required for that, maybe a 4th dan would do at a push, as long as they all wear gum shields and head gear and keep a fire extinguisher handy in case one of the rainbows spontaneously combusts with excitment



The balloon thing is a game to play after they've punched and chopped. It's not the balloons I'm concerned about it's the bad punching into air that needs correcting, as I said about the boxercise ladies. All good instructors know you don't punch into air with your elbow straight. As I said I've seen someone dislocate their shoulder 'air punching'. children punching into the air for over an hour will end up with sore wrists and at five years old that's not good.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 21, 2017)

It is not the style. It is the individual.

Look. People teach self defense who have never had to defend themselves. People teach martial arts with no accountability. No training in safety and no consistency in product.

Martial arts is quite simply a mess.

What is described is a bit tragic. But hardly unusual.


----------



## jobo (Jul 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The balloon thing is a game to play after they've punched and chopped. It's not the balloons I'm concerned about it's the bad punching into air that needs correcting, as I said about the boxercise ladies. All good instructors know you don't punch into air with your elbow straight. As I said I've seen someone dislocate their shoulder 'air punching'. children punching into the air for over an hour will end up with sore wrists and at five years old that's not good.


what children need is plenty of robust exercises not mollycodling I really doubt they are going to be punching the air for an hour, id be surprised if their attention span is five minutes.and if they get tired or bored they will stop And i doubt their punches will look much like punches,And if they get sore arms that's good, that helps them develop,


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 21, 2017)

Tez, I share your concerns and I see the same thing in a lot of sports, most often from parents trying to teach their kids a sport when they themselves have no clue what they are doing. I've seen are the parents who think it's a good idea to try and teach their non-swimming kids how to dive into deep water..... "hey little Jonny, you can't even put your head into the water comfortably but let's take those arm-bands off and I'll show you how to dive headfirst into water where you can't stand up! What could possibly go wrong?!" The worst part about this is when I've tried to explain why this is such a bad idea to the parent, they look at me like I've gone insane.

In short, people are stupid and generally speaking only understand immediate dangers, rather than the long term side effects of what they are doing. Joints and ligaments? Who cares about those!

What also doesn't help is that some people who should know what they are doing either don't care about the long term effects or are just ignorant. This causes even more problems because the parents generally watch the classes and will copy the teacher. If the teacher allows poor technique to go uncorrected, the parent will assume the technique is correct and copy it.

As to the situation with the girl guides, for something like this I don't think there needs to be a dedicated Karate instructor for it, but they should bring in a qualified instructor to teach the group leaders the proper technique first rather than giving them a sheet of paper and telling them to get on with it.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
> Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.
> 
> The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)
> ...


Now, add in all that kick boxing Aerobics, and we have us a real problem.


----------



## Steve (Jul 21, 2017)

I get the concern but i think this is a bit over the top.   Kids aren't going to be ruined by chopping the air a little and punching some balloons.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2017)

As long as the instructors don't try to teach how to punch and just let the kids use their fist in a way that feels natural then the kids should be fine.  Kids have a tendency to move in ways that are more natural and proper on their own.  It's not until unqualified people start teaching punching techniques that the problems.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> As long as the instructors don't try to teach how to punch and just let the kids use their fist in a way that feels natural then the kids should be fine.  Kids have a tendency to move in ways that are more natural and proper on their own.  It's not until unqualified people start teaching punching techniques that the problems occur.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2017)

Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, mainly because of the age. I guarantee you 5-7 year olds are punching the air anyway, pretending to be ninjas. If it's something that gets them into karate and their parents take them to an actual dojo, great. If they get bored or hurt themselves and don't continue, that sucks but it's not the end of the world. Regarding your over an hour statement; are five year olds continuously working on their punches for over an hour? Seeing kids classes run, I find that tough to believe, but even if they are, one hour of incorrect punching is not going to damage their joints to an extent they will know it 20 years down the line. Kids are more resilient than that.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> As to the situation with the girl guides, for something like this I don't think there needs to be a dedicated Karate instructor for it, but they should bring in a qualified instructor to teach the group leaders the proper technique first rather than giving them a sheet of paper and telling them to get on with it.



We get instructors in usually to have demo or proper sessions in everything else, I just don't know why this one thing they've decided not to. it would be very easy to get an instructor from a local club in for a session and then the girls if they like it have a point of contact to join. The instructor can also answer questions knowledgably because the girls always have loads of questions! 
The girls will be doing it for an hour or more, I've been told that in the trial sessions they did and they are 'told how to punch' not left to themselves because it's _'only a punch that everyone can do' _direct quote from email I'm afraid. Other leaders have said they lined the girls up like in 'Karate Kid' and did lots of punching, walking up and down the room and also _'squatting'_ and punching. then they had them punching and 'chopping' stood around the room. the leaders said the girls liked it so they let them carry on for the full time.
The problem is so many people have seen martial arts on television and 'know' how these things go. 

As for mollycoddling children, that's a nonsense. If other people's children who we have  responsibility for get hurt that's not 'tough' that's negligence.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 22, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Personally, I wouldn't be too concerned about it, mainly because of the age. I guarantee you 5-7 year olds are punching the air anyway, pretending to be ninjas. If it's something that gets them into karate and their parents take them to an actual dojo, great. If they get bored or hurt themselves and don't continue, that sucks but it's not the end of the world. Regarding your over an hour statement; are five year olds continuously working on their punches for over an hour? Seeing kids classes run, I find that tough to believe, but even if they are, one hour of incorrect punching is not going to damage their joints to an extent they will know it 20 years down the line. Kids are more resilient than that.


Agreed most of those kids have probably thrown a punch before either in a fight or just messing around and there's no way a bunch of kids can do 1 thing for an hour hell it's a struggle to get kids to do something for more than 5 minutes without getting bored. Fact is injuries are going to happen in anything people do. Whether it's karate, football, gymnastics, sewing. Is it a good thing? No course not no one wants kids getting hurt. Is it something that's terrible and going to cause lasting damage? I very much doubt it


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed most of those kids have probably thrown a punch before either in a fight or just messing around and there's no way a bunch of kids can do 1 thing for an hour hell it's a struggle to get kids to do something for more than 5 minutes without getting bored. Fact is injuries are going to happen in anything people do. Whether it's karate, football, gymnastics, sewing. Is it a good thing? No course not no one wants kids getting hurt. Is it something that's terrible and going to cause lasting damage? I very much doubt it



I disagree with the getting the kids to do things for five minutes without being bored is difficult, we do a great many things with the girls that go on for the whole meeting, you just have to know how to get them interested and engaged which I will say we are extremely good at.  we usually run over time because we are busy doing something rather than have to keep finding things to do with them. Units have already done the 'karate' sessions for more than an hour. I've found the same in proper martial arts classes, children don't get bored if you know how to lead and teach them.
Of course injuries are going to happen but should they happen because a non qualified person who has never done an activity in their life is teaching it? While the cards are a guideline many leaders take it far beyond the suggestions ( one of the reasons the girls don't get bored), the cards are a suggestion, leaders bounce off them and come up with even more. They don't follow just what's there they go on and do a vast amount more hence the 'Karate Kid' lessons.

It actually doesn't take much to hyperextend young joints by the way and cause damage, I've checked with a couple of health professionals who are also martial artists before saying this. If they do this on their 'own time' it's not our problem but if they do it during Rainbow time then carry on because the leaders taught them how to do it yes it's our problem. It goes national as such problems have before, it only takes one post on 'mumsnet' (Active Conversations  even politicians fear that lot, the language is ripe for parents too) it's the power of the internet, one so called 'newspaper' has already had a go at us because they said we should be learning to sew, make cups of tea and do crafts not interfere as they put it with 'men's' things like politics, engineering and science! 

Very, very few girls have fist fights so won't have made fists and punched before, 'girl' fighting is different from the way boys fight. We are an all girl organisation, we don't take boys.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
> Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.
> 
> The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)
> ...


I doubt they'll do enough of these activities to injure themselves more than they would just batting the balloons about. Some will get hurt, but probably not more than with other activities that have them swinging arms near each other.

The idea that this is somehow related to Karate, though, is ludicrous. To use your gymnastics analogy, it would be like having them do the "T" (from the steel rings) and the dismount (from horse, parallel bars, etc.) as set of dance moves and claim they're introducing gymnastics. Utter rubbish. 

This activity is probably something used by some TKD schools for entertaining the kids between lessons. It's not a bad idea, but probably doesn't actually teach them anything useful. Doing it without the actual lessons with kids that age (and telling them they are learning to punch and chop) will probably make it hard for them to learn properly if they try to take up Karate (or TKD) in the next year or so.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The balloon thing is a game to play after they've punched and chopped. It's not the balloons I'm concerned about it's the bad punching into air that needs correcting, as I said about the boxercise ladies. All good instructors know you don't punch into air with your elbow straight. As I said I've seen someone dislocate their shoulder 'air punching'. children punching into the air for over an hour will end up with sore wrists and at five years old that's not good.


For an hour? Yeah, that's bad. I didn't catch that when I read your OP. I thought it was mostly about the balloon exercise. I can see no good in someone who doesn't know how to punch teaching kids how to punch, then having them do it for an hour.

I can't imagine the kids will be thrilled, either.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> what children need is plenty of robust exercises not mollycodling I really doubt they are going to be punching the air for an hour, id be surprised if their attention span is five minutes.and if they get tired or bored they will stop And i doubt their punches will look much like punches,And if they get sore arms that's good, that helps them develop,


At their age, sore muscles aren't likely to happen often. I think she's talking about sore joints (she said sore wrists). Kids that age are still developing their joints, and injury like that to them has a greater impact on that development. It's why I never taught joint locks to kids. Extensive punching into the air has questionable value unless one is using it for a specific purpose (stamina development, working on form, etc.), and more so when untrained, and even more so for kids.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> As long as the instructors don't try to teach how to punch and just let the kids use their fist in a way that feels natural then the kids should be fine.  Kids have a tendency to move in ways that are more natural and proper on their own.  It's not until unqualified people start teaching punching techniques that the problems.


If it's for limited periods of time, I agree this is probably the safest route. Kids move in pretty natural ways. But still not if it's going to include extended periods of striking air (and balloons aren't much better).


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For an hour? Yeah, that's bad. I didn't catch that when I read your OP. I thought it was mostly about the balloon exercise. I can see no good in someone who doesn't know how to punch teaching kids how to punch, then having them do it for an hour.
> 
> I can't imagine the kids will be thrilled, either.



The trouble is with us, we are very enthusiastic ( we even have songs about how much we are lol) we throw ourselves into things, so if a thing is worth doing it's worth doing hugely to paraphrase a certain President.  
So leaders don't just show them a punch they tell them to *really* throw it! 'Go for it girls' is the usual cry. Nothing about Guiding is wishy washy or just done because we can do it, we do it with determination and at full gas hence my worries about sore wrists, elbows and shoulders, no sore muscles of course, children don't often get them but the damage to hyperextended elbows and to the tendons in their wrists.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> The trouble is with us, we are very enthusiastic ( we even have songs about how much we are lol) we throw ourselves into things, so if a thing is worth doing it's worth doing hugely to paraphrase a certain President.
> So leaders don't just show them a punch they tell them to *really* throw it! 'Go for it girls' is the usual cry. Nothing about Guiding is wishy washy or just done because we can do it, we do it with determination and at full gas hence my worries about sore wrists, elbows and shoulders, no sore muscles of course, children don't often get them but the damage to hyperextended elbows and to the tendons in their wrists.



Another problem I've found is a lot of sports teachers hold the attitude of "suck it up, pain is good" which is in a way but can also be a very bad thing. I've had kids come into my swimming lessons complaining that they injured themselves at school during sports lessons (usually their legs) and I've then asked what their teacher said about it, and the teacher said "you're fine, carry on". Yes I know children can exaggerate things but you still have to consider that the child is hurt if they say so. It's almost like the teachers don't care at all what happens to the kids.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Well,  wouldn't expect you to actually understand. In Guiding we don't wrap girls up in cottonwool, we do a lot of adventurous activities BUT we have proper qualified instructors. We do climbing, canoeing, adventure training, camping ( cooking on fires no cookers etc) it's not too much to expect that if we have qualified instructors for all other sports and activities that we also have them for 'karate'.



I agree.  Proper instruction and training for leaders is as important for even arts & crafts activities, let alone anything that involves the kids in motion.  While the lesson, as described, may not be as dangerous or high risk as climbing or canoeing... it still has risks and needs to be done properly.

I'd suggest you keep pushing the issue through channels, advise other leaders considering the program, and maybe find/provide a list of instructors willing to teach the lesson properly, rather than trying to figure it out from cards.


----------



## jobo (Jul 22, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I agree.  Proper instruction and training for leaders is as important for even arts & crafts activities, let alone anything that involves the kids in motion.  While the lesson, as described, may not be as dangerous or high risk as climbing or canoeing... it still has risks and needs to be done properly.
> 
> I'd suggest you keep pushing the issue through channels, advise other leaders considering the program, and maybe find/provide a list of instructors willing to teach the lesson properly, rather than trying to figure it out from cards.


kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.

talk about killing child hood,


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If it's for limited periods of time, I agree this is probably the safest route. Kids move in pretty natural ways. But still not if it's going to include extended periods of striking air (and balloons aren't much better).


When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour.  The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.   

I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour.  Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored.  If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.


----------



## jobo (Jul 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour.  The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.
> 
> I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour.  Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored.  If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.


I think its self limiting very very few people can punch continuously for an hour, I'm betting these 6 years old  arnt among them,

I thing we need a reality check, its playing balloon  tennis in teams, punching a balloon, there's not a,drill,Sargent making them punch the air for an hour


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.
> 
> talk about killing child hood,



Did you know a lot of children now can't skip or do forward rolls? We see them coming into martial arts like that all the time. What you aren't seeing is that in UK primary schools there is little to no PT anymore not even games. Most don't have sports grounds or anywhere to do sports. it behoves us to teach our children how to do things properly not half arsed. Your viewpoint is that of someone who is happy to let kids do things badly in the mistake belief it's better than doing nothing. If a jobs worth doing it's wordth doing damn well and that's what we owe our children, the best instruction, the best coaches and the best sports training we can give them not amateurs who know nothing and can inadvertently damage young bones etc. Nearly half of children 'leave school without basic movement skills', study says




JowGaWolf said:


> When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour.  The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.
> 
> I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour.  Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored.  If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.



Please read my posts, I said that leaders have already done this activity for an hour or more, they have reported back saying they did it first as punching and 'chopping' around the room, then they did a karate lesson as they have seen it on films etc and then they played the tennis game, this took an hour and sometimes a bit over. Rainbows, Brownies and Guides are more than used to doing activities without getting bored for  just an hour. The leaders said the girls enjoyed it and the time went quickly, we don't 'entertain' girls I'm afraid, it isn't a youth club or after school activity. Girls work hard for badges, and regularly do challenges and are used to doing one activity for an hour ( they do in school as well). It's preparation for when they go on to do the Duke of Edinburgh's Award, the Baden-Powell Award and the Queen's Guide Award.
I did say that leaders take to things enthusiastically and are doing far more than just that on the instruction sheet, I know of one who is also doing kicks because she's done them in her fitness class ( not a martial arts class)


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Please read my posts, I said that leaders have already done this activity for an hour or more, they have reported back saying they did it first as punching and 'chopping' around the room, then they did a karate lesson as they have seen it on films etc and then they played the tennis game, this took an hour and sometimes a bit over.


 When I read this I read it as the activity took that long to do, and not that the kids were actually punching for more than an hour.  For example, kung fu classes at my school are an hour.  But it doesn't mean that we are doing kung fu non-stop for an hour.  There are breaks, there are lectures, there are conditioning exercises. It's not a continuous hour of punching and kicking.    So when I see that a kids activity is an hour, I just assume that the amount of time used for the activity is an hour, but it's not continuous punching and chopping around the room for an hour.

This is what I was like when I was a kid.  Play kung fu fights it probably lasted a good 30 minutes before we started doing something else .  None of what they are doing is going to kill their joints.  The movement's that they are imitating are most likely done in the way that is most comfortable and natural to the body movement and place.  Granted none of that stuff is effective it moves naturally.   This is what was going through my mind. Kids going around looking like this hitting balloons.  If the kids can punch like this for hours and be fine because the movements are based on what feels natural for them.  It's not a trained movement.





I didn't see where you stated that they did an actual karate lesson.  If they are doing an actual karate lesson then this is where proper technique needs to come in for the reason you stated. They are training a movement vs allowing a child to punch in a way that feels natural to them.  Teaching the body to move a specific way is where doing it right counts.  I look at punching the same way that I look at running.  These can be done naturally which may or may not be effective.  None of these are trained movements, we walk and run according to what feels natural as our movement.   Then we have speed walking and track.  Now we are talking about trained movements and if done incorrectly injuries occur.  I had the impression that the environment was some kind of youth club or after school activity.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.
> 
> talk about killing child hood,


Would you argue that kids (in general, not the few) can learn to swing a baseball/cricket bat properly *at that age *without help?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I read the instructions it didn't seem like it was continuous punching for an hour.  The hour time may be how long it takes to do the activity, that includes setting up, explaining and trying to get the kids to pay attention, and ending the activity.
> 
> I would need to see the activity simply because I couldn't see anyone at those ages being entertained with punching for an hour.  Those kids aren't going to push through when they start getting bored.  If they begin to get bored then they are going to stop and then try to do something else other than the activity.


That was my original read, too. The hour was based upon Tez's later posts.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> If they are doing an actual karate lesson then this is where proper technique needs to come in for the reason you stated. They are training a movement vs allowing a child to punch in a way that feels natural to them. Teaching the body to move a specific way is where doing it right counts. I look at punching the same way that I look at running. These can be done naturally which may or may not be effective. None of these are trained movements, we walk and run according to what feels natural as our movement. Then we have speed walking and track. Now we are talking about trained movements and if done incorrectly injuries occur. I had the impression that the environment was some kind of youth club or after school activity.



Girl Guiding ( Girl Scouts in some countries, but same thing) is the biggest charity for girls in the world, leaders are volunteers from all walks of life, it is a uniformed organisation. As an organisation we also work to help others, Guides in areas struck by Ebola are going around villages teaching personal hygiene, others are working with refugees, in Nepal they helped put up tents and care for people affected by the earthquake, others have gone to the UN to debate international issues. We have world centres in London, Mexico, Switzerland, India and Africa. this is the UK What we do  and this is the world organisation What we do

 Leaders are taking the cards and expanding on them which is what they are supposed to do so some are doing a whole karate lesson as seen on television and films. They are also a precursor to the new programme which is taking the next two years to change. there's a thread on FB about this and more info is coming in all the time about how leaders are doing this activity hence my comments are updating.

Seems a lot of people don't punch properly. FightingArts.com - The Basic Punch -Alignment Can Help Or Hurt You


----------



## jobo (Jul 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Would you argue that kids (in general, not the few) can learn to swing a baseball/cricket bat properly *at that age *without help?


yes, I did, well not base ball bats, but rounder's bats and cricket bats,and so did all the other kids, we,also instructed ourselves how to ride bikes do hand stands climb trees  light fires and use yo yos in fact we instructed ourselves to do everything, when I got a tennis racket  i got six balls to go with it, not a session with,a tennis coach.

kids learn through imitation and  experience largely with out the help of adults, who generaly slow things down with being risk adverse. That's not to say that a couple of tips sent of value, but anyselve respecting kid will ignore you


----------



## donald1 (Jul 22, 2017)

that sounds like simple fun activities for them which is great. however. like the others are saying. it would be a good idea for them to know the difference between fun activities and actual karate. good luck!


----------



## jobo (Jul 22, 2017)

donald1 said:


> that sounds like simple fun activities for them which is great. however. like the others are saying. it would be a good idea for them to know the difference between fun activities and actual karate. good luck!


that makes it sound like karate is not a fun activity


----------



## donald1 (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> that makes it sound like karate is not a fun activity


no, it is fun. however young kids usually have different ideas of fun.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes, I did, well not base ball bats, but rounder's bats and cricket bats,and so did all the other kids, we,also instructed ourselves how to ride bikes do hand stands climb trees  light fires and use yo yos in fact we instructed ourselves to do everything, when I got a tennis racket  i got six balls to go with it, not a session with,a tennis coach.
> 
> kids learn through imitation and  experience largely with out the help of adults, who generaly slow things down with being risk adverse. That's not to say that a couple of tips sent of value, but anyselve respecting kid will ignore you



You obviously has places to do this, there's few places now where children especially in cities can climb trees, light fires etc. We do a lot of lighting fires ( cooking on them to ) and to start with we have to teach the girls to light a candle because parents won't allow them to go near matches and the girls are scared.  Few people use matches now anyway what  with central heating, cigarette lighters etc. There's few places to play tennis, football, rounders etc. Playing fields have been sold off for housing by the government. Parks are deemed unsafe. Life isn't as it was when you were a kid. Where I am, in a secluded village up in the Dales, kids still play out but they are very much the minority these days. Not that we have a lot of children, second homes and holiday cottages are taking over, the village school shut some time ago. Locals can't afford to buy cottages and houses in their own villages.



donald1 said:


> that sounds like simple fun activities for them which is great. however. like the others are saying. it would be a good idea for them to know the difference between fun activities and actual karate. good luck!



A lot of instructors, indeed people on here won't teach children martial arts feeling it's not an activity suitable for children for a number of reasons. I teach children of 8 and above. I feel under that they are too young or rather their bodies are too young.
They seem as I said before simple activities but it's the way leaders have expanded the activity into karate lessons is what I'm concerned about not batting a few balloons about.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Seems a lot of people don't punch properly.


This is probably an understatement.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

For an example of what I mean about how we as leaders go so much further than the suggestions. We are probably totally mad. We had a Harry Potter Challenge Badge where the girls do several things to earn it so we had a weekend away, we spent a few weeks preparing everything for the girls. We had a sorting hat and houses, academic gowns, potions, a small cardboard replica Ford Anglia car, spells, we had real owls ( yep, a local person brought their owls to us), 'magical' food, beasts, the hall where we stayed was decorated to look like Hogwarts, the whole weekend was totally Harry Potter and the girls loved it. It wasn't necessary to do that to complete the challenge badge but we do it because we throw ourselves in whole heartedly so of course tell them 'karate' and they are away, doing karate classes, punching, should I mention the 'screaming' trying to sound like Bruce Lee because of course he's the icon for martial arts so I imagine there's more than 'karate' going into these sessions! I know how we work and I know the girls too will throw themselves into this, so it does worry me.


----------



## jobo (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You obviously has places to do this, there's few places now where children especially in cities can climb trees, light fires etc. We do a lot of lighting fires ( cooking on them to ) and to start with we have to teach the girls to light a candle because parents won't allow them to go near matches and the girls are scared.  Few people use matches now anyway what  with central heating, cigarette lighters etc. There's few places to play tennis, football, rounders etc. Playing fields have been sold off for housing by the government. Parks are deemed unsafe. Life isn't as it was when you were a kid. Where I am, in a secluded village up in the Dales, kids still play out but they are very much the minority these days. Not that we have a lot of children, second homes and holiday cottages are taking over, the village school shut some time ago. Locals can't afford to buy cottages and houses in their own villages.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


facilities??? Yea right, this was 1960s Salford, we had bomb sites and derelict houses oh yes and some,derelict factories and a park patroled by a parkie who only job was to stop children enjoying themselves, no ball games keep of the grass and no you can't use the tennis,court with out paying a shilling.

we played in the street and ginnels, but we did have a house with a big tree


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes, I did, well not base ball bats, but rounder's bats and cricket bats,and so did all the other kids, we,also instructed ourselves how to ride bikes do hand stands climb trees  light fires and use yo yos in fact we instructed ourselves to do everything, when I got a tennis racket  i got six balls to go with it, not a session with,a tennis coach.
> 
> kids learn through imitation and  experience largely with out the help of adults, who generaly slow things down with being risk adverse. That's not to say that a couple of tips sent of value, but anyselve respecting kid will ignore you


Then you're hanging around some VERY different 5-7 year-olds than I've met.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> facilities??? Yea right, this was 1960s Salford, we had bomb sites and derelict houses oh yes and some,derelict factories and a park patroled by a parkie who only job was to stop children enjoying themselves, no ball games keep of the grass and no you can't use the tennis,court with out paying a shilling.
> 
> we played in the street and ginnels, but we did have a house with a big tree





Children today have very different lives. Cities are more built up, there's millions of cars and trucks on our roads so playing in the street is impossible. Green spaces are gobbled up for housing.
Oh and if you want to play the deprived northerner, you should have tried London in the 50s but I suppose at least we didn't have all those matchstick men wandering around like you did.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> kids in motion need a proper instructors, really, I wonder how they learnt to run and jump and skip, did mum order in a kids in motion instructor.
> 
> talk about killing child hood,


As motion becomes more complicated, kids in motion need instruction.  As it becomes more specific, they need training.  Kids can figure or teach themselves a front somersault, play on monkey bars... but if you want them doing complicated gymnastic motions, they need coaching and probably spotting, no?  Once an organization creates a lesson and teaches it, it's incumbent on them to teach it properly and safely.  From Tez's description, this is a weak lesson plan with no preparation or instruction on how to present it.  Again, from her description, leaders have run way beyond what's in the lesson, and are doing their own thing with it.  (In the US, the BSA Safety Matrix and policies explicitly prohibit boxing, karate, etc. except for judo, aikido, and tai chi.  Lots of reasons for that, and I don't completely agree... but it's the rules. )  Will kids play fight, etc. on their own?  Of course.  What they do on their own i

It's simple -- some activities require proper instruction and prepared leaders to be done safely and properly.  The extent of that training and preparation varies; for a lot of arts and crafts, it can probably be limited to "don't let them eat the glue or cut their clothes or fingers with the scissors."  Biking may require a few "reminders" for adults that may not have learned the safety rules as well as one might hope.  Swimming requires appropriate lifeguards, etc.  Gymnastics may need trained spotters for safety.  Martial arts?  Yeah, they need a bit more coaching than a card telling them how to make fist and list of activities.  As an intro activity -- it's probably stuff that could be taught via a video, on-line instruction, with a clear explanation of the limits of the course.  But they should be addressing risks and safety concerns.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jul 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, I need some feedback on this, pretty please. The Girl Guiding Association here has put out some activity cards for the youngest section aged 5-7. One of those cards is 'Karate', it says things like 'rei is karate for bow' and 'karate is done in a dojo'. Ok no worries but then it tells leaders to get girls to make a fist ( 'make two thumbs up signs and curl your thumbs across your fingers, you've made a fist') and go around punching and 'chopping' into the air and then play 'karate tennis' punching balloons.
> Now I emailed with my concerns about the punching as I have seen so many end up with sore wrists due to not knowing how to punch properly (due to lack of qualified instructor) and sore elbows due to punching into the air forcefully with straight elbows. I have even see a dislocated should due to punching like this. I was in a gym changing room once when a bunch of ladies came in from a class, they were all complaining about sore wrists and elbows, I asked how they were punching, with bent wrists and straight elbows with a lot of force! The instructor had been doing 'boxercise' and thought punching was just making a fist and throwing your arm about.
> 
> The reply I go was that safety was a priority ie the girls are told not to stand near each other and not to punch outside but they said nothing about my concerns for young joints! They did say they'd consulted British Taekwondo about how they should do a karate lesson. (Minor niggle there I'm afraid!)
> ...



Red alert! This is generic karate may even be worse than mcdojo karate. I'd stay far away from this and warn friends and relatives to do the same.


----------



## Steve (Jul 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Then you're hanging around some VERY different 5-7 year-olds than I've met.


That's actually not that different than my childhood.  We figured things out.  It wasn't very well organized.   I mean I pkayed little league and all that.  But we also made swords out of sticks, tried making bow and arrows, played twnbis, football, and soccer with no coaches or instruction and we spent a lot of time trying to act like ninjas and samurai.   That's pretty much how it was from 3 to about 12.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> In the US, the BSA Safety Matrix and policies explicitly prohibit boxing, karate, etc. except for judo, aikido, and tai chi. Lots of reasons for that, and I don't completely agree... but it's the rules. )


 Man that sucks. Does that include kung fu too? we know that stuff isn't real lol.   How in the heck do they justify judo but not karate? lol.  I'll have to rethink my entire game plan now.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 22, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Man that sucks. Does that include kung fu too? we know that stuff isn't real lol.   How in the heck do they justify judo but not karate? lol.  I'll have to rethink my entire game plan now.


There are tons of factors that combine into the BSA's policies, and I'm not qualified to espouse on all of them.  The Guide to Safe Scouting is the "bible" for the Boy Scouts of America activities.  Factors balance age appropriateness, how an activity fits into the overall program, whether it can be done with reasonable safety, and other concerns.  Here's one take on why martial arts are generally prohibited.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> That's actually not that different than my childhood.  We figured things out.  It wasn't very well organized.   I mean I pkayed little league and all that.  But we also made swords out of sticks, tried making bow and arrows, played twnbis, football, and soccer with no coaches or instruction and we spent a lot of time trying to act like ninjas and samurai.   That's pretty much how it was from 3 to about 12.


Acting like ninjas at age 6 is very different from competently conducting a complex skill like swinging a cricket or baseball bat or tennis racket properly. Jobo's assertion is that kids age 5-7 (the age listed in the OP) can do those sorts of things properly without help.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> There are tons of factors that combine into the BSA's policies, and I'm not qualified to espouse on all of them.  The Guide to Safe Scouting is the "bible" for the Boy Scouts of America activities.  Factors balance age appropriateness, how an activity fits into the overall program, whether it can be done with reasonable safety, and other concerns.  Here's one take on why martial arts are generally prohibited.


I guess I better double up on my Tai Chi then.   I wonder what is in Judo that makes it ok.


----------



## Steve (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Acting like ninjas at age 6 is very different from competently conducting a complex skill like swinging a cricket or baseball bat or tennis racket properly. Jobo's assertion is that kids age 5-7 (the age listed in the OP) can do those sorts of things properly without help.


Properly?  No.  Not even really with help.   But improperly, we were hitting balls with bats, tennis rackets and you name it, at 7 or 8 without any coaching.   We were playing football in the park, and doing all sorts of things, just by having seen it on tv.  I think you're making more of this than exists.

You're adding the qualifier of "competently" to this.   Competence, at age 6, is a ridiculous standard, coaching or not.

Once again, I see the original point, and sure.  I get it.   Some qualified coaching would be great.   But without coaching, we aren't going to see kids wirithing on the ground, clutching their poor elbows, moaning and unable to use their arms.   This is, at worst, harmless goofing around.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> That's actually not that different than my childhood.  We figured things out.  It wasn't very well organized.   I mean I pkayed little league and all that.  But we also made swords out of sticks, tried making bow and arrows, played twnbis, football, and soccer with no coaches or instruction and we spent a lot of time trying to act like ninjas and samurai.   That's pretty much how it was from 3 to about 12.



A bicycle inner tube and a skewer makes a very serviceable bow and arrow for the kiddies.


----------



## Jenna (Jul 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> A bicycle inner tube and a skewer makes a very serviceable bow and arrow for the kiddies.


Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

Martial arts isn't banned here in Scouting or Guiding here, we just have to have qualified instructors taking it which of course is at odds with a random activity of doing karate without an instructor! There's a huge list of activities we can do, some are banned for the younger girls like parachuting ( for some reason lol) but Guiding way back in the early days in the 1900s had badges for girls like 'flyer' 'backwoodsman' 'boatswain' 'carpenter' and 'electrician' all very unusual for 1911 girls, there were more badges than that of course. 
We don't mollycoddle children, we challenge them, always have but sometimes there's incontinency where allowing an activity without an instructor is not even so much seen as dangerous but is a complete misunderstanding of what that activity is. if everyone can teach martial arts without any training why do we as instructors bother? Shouldn't karate be seen as an activity like gymnastics where proper instruction is necessary rather than one that because you can see it on television anyone can teach? What is wrong with introducing karate to the girls by bringing in an instructor and doing it properly? 
the idea that kids can go off and learn all sorts by themselves is nice but doesn't happen much now, other than in a few areas children don't play out, parents organise loads of activities for them every day or children stay in after school clubs until picked up just before bedtimes. The past may cast a rosy glow over some of you but that's not what is happening these days. fighting play or real in the playground will get the kids hauled apart by the teachers on playground duty and probably excluded from school even at a young age. Any sort of fist made and lifted gets people hyperventilating so kids don't have rough and tumble anymore. Physical activity in schools has dropped as the government demands more and more testing and schools prep for that, they have to, schools need to rated highly or face penalties.

So when we teach something to girls without knowing how to do it ourselves it's wrong, they need proper instruction in order not just to be safe but to respect physical activity as something great, worth doing, something amazing not something anyone can do as a just game. there's also the problem, to me, that touting something as self defence which this activity is, it's labelled as such, is a big problem. so those of you who thing it's harmless do you think that it will teach young girls to defend themselves, just the activity itself taught by non martial artists?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....



Children don't get to do things like that anymore, many in cities never did anyway. Rosy nostalgia is great but doesn't help with the problems children face today.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

Something to think about too, children do love messing around on their own but they also absolutely love doing something properly 'like grown ups'. Yes, they can throw a ball but being shown how to bowl a cricket ball by a cricketer or dribble a football properly by a footballer enthuses and inspires them. They love it so they deserve the chance to be similarly enthused about karate with a proper instructor passing on their enthusiasm and passion.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> As motion becomes more complicated, kids in motion need instruction.  As it becomes more specific, they need training.  Kids can figure or teach themselves a front somersault, play on monkey bars... but if you want them doing complicated gymnastic motions, they need coaching and probably spotting, no?  Once an organization creates a lesson and teaches it, it's incumbent on them to teach it properly and safely.  From Tez's description, this is a weak lesson plan with no preparation or instruction on how to present it.  Again, from her description, leaders have run way beyond what's in the lesson, and are doing their own thing with it.  (In the US, the BSA Safety Matrix and policies explicitly prohibit boxing, karate, etc. except for judo, aikido, and tai chi.  Lots of reasons for that, and I don't completely agree... but it's the rules. )  Will kids play fight, etc. on their own?  Of course.  What they do on their own i
> 
> It's simple -- some activities require proper instruction and prepared leaders to be done safely and properly.  The extent of that training and preparation varies; for a lot of arts and crafts, it can probably be limited to "don't let them eat the glue or cut their clothes or fingers with the scissors."  Biking may require a few "reminders" for adults that may not have learned the safety rules as well as one might hope.  Swimming requires appropriate lifeguards, etc.  Gymnastics may need trained spotters for safety.  Martial arts?  Yeah, they need a bit more coaching than a card telling them how to make fist and list of activities.  As an intro activity -- it's probably stuff that could be taught via a video, on-line instruction, with a clear explanation of the limits of the course.  But they should be addressing risks and safety concerns.


all of which is true and non of which applies to this,scenario, they are being tought to play balloon tennis using a,fist, not try out for the under 8s gymnastic championship .

that said,children have been teaching themselves to fight for generations, through play fighting and real fighting, its a prime example of experience learning.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> all of which is true and non of which applies to this,scenario, they are being tought to play balloon tennis using a,fist, not try out for the under 8s gymnastic championship .
> 
> that said,children have been teaching themselves to fight for generations, through play fighting and real fighting, its a prime example of experience learning.



I love how you pick out bits and try to make them fit your perceptions. No, they aren't  just being taught to play balloon tennis and rarely do girls teach themselves to fight, if only they did. You are being such an old grouch, this is a chance to inspire young girls to come into martial arts by having a passionate practitioner of martial arts come in and enthuse girls into becoming martial artists and all you can say is kids have been teaching themselves to fight for years. Even though these days it's actually quite hard for kids to get any experience that way now, do you actually do a martial art or are you just a professional curmudgeon?


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I love how you pick out bits and try to make them fit your perceptions. No, they aren't  just being taught to play balloon tennis and rarely do girls teach themselves to fight, if only they did. You are being such an old grouch, this is a chance to inspire young girls to come into martial arts by having a passionate practitioner of martial arts come in and enthuse girls into becoming martial artists and all you can say is kids have been teaching themselves to fight for years. Even though these days it's actually quite hard for kids to get any experience that way now, do you actually do a martial art or are you just a professional curmudgeon?


your original complaint was that it was,Very dangerous, now its that they could be inspired to take up fighting, you really have to pick an objection and stick with it, or we will just flip flop about all day.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> your original complaint was that it was,Very dangerous, now its that they could be inspired to take up fighting, you really have to pick an objection and stick with it, or we will just flip flop about all day.



You are such a silly billy, really you are! I didn't say it was *very *dangerous, I said non martial arts instructors teaching martial arts techniques such as punching incorrectly can and will lead to sore wrists. Sadly, you are trolling yet again, it's such a shame you waste so much time not being very good at it.
And as to why you think I would be against girls fighting I have no idea, it's one of my favourite things.
I'd be interested to know what you qualifications are for teaching children martial arts or anyone for that matter given that you are telling us they should be teaching themselves but wait, I forgot for a moment you are just being disagreeable because you like being disagreeable and will post up contrary posts just because you can. You have offered no advice, no good ideas other than what you did as a kid so nothing positive from you.
Will you volunteer to come into a Rainbow unit near you to teach martial arts?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> Properly?  No.  Not even really with help.   But improperly, we were hitting balls with bats, tennis rackets and you name it, at 7 or 8 without any coaching.   We were playing football in the park, and doing all sorts of things, just by having seen it on tv.  I think you're making more of this than exists.
> 
> You're adding the qualifier of "competently" to this.   Competence, at age 6, is a ridiculous standard, coaching or not.
> 
> Once again, I see the original point, and sure.  I get it.   Some qualified coaching would be great.   But without coaching, we aren't going to see kids wirithing on the ground, clutching their poor elbows, moaning and unable to use their arms.   This is, at worst, harmless goofing around.


I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.

At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.
> 
> At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).


if your view was true, then kids with non involved parents, that didn't coach them or sign them up to lessons would never be any good at anything, but they are, they teach themselves by Esperance and watching other kids.

now if you really want your kid to play tennis at a professional level there is little doubt that having them coached at aged 4 will give them an advantage, but that's not the point in discussion here.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> if your view was true, then kids with non involved parents, that didn't coach them or sign them up to lessons would never be any good at anything, but they are, they teach themselves by Esperance and watching other kids.
> 
> now if you really want your kid to play tennis at a professional level there is little doubt that having them coached at aged 4 will give them an advantage, but that's not the point in discussion here.


Over-generalization and strawman argument.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets.



We know though from children themselves that, sadly, kids playing on their own or with other kids outside knocking a ball around etc is fast becoming a thing of the past. We all grew up being able to find out these things but the world has changed and kids now don't even go out to play in most places so telling me that kids will do these things on their own isn't true anymore. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but we have to take what we've got and work with it. c
Children also don't do sports much at primary school level ( 5-11 in the UK) there's no teaches running cricket, football, netball etc after school anymore. PE lessons in primary schools is just about non existent and PE teachers in secondary schools ( 11-16) are the first to be given the chop with the budget cuts or a teacher in another discipline is asked to stand in.
We owe it to our children, if we can't go back to when they could play out, be adventurous on their own, to at least inspire them to look for sports to do. My worry as I said is that this activity I've been told is to introduce them to karate, to give them a 'basic skill' and get them to look at a sport they don't know. All of this would be fine if the ones introducing them didn't know anything themselves and will pass on wrong information and techniques. if you are just telling the girls to punch it's one thing, *teaching* them to punch when you don't know yourself is another thing because if they are going to punch and 'chop' as they call it, it's passing on bad habits which do have the potential to cause harm to young wrists and elbows ( as I have actually seen happen to adults in three quarters of an hour boxercise classes) as ell as saying it's 'self defence' training which is a worry.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> We know though from children themselves that, sadly, kids playing on their own or with other kids outside knocking a ball around etc is fast becoming a thing of the past. We all grew up being able to find out these things but the world has changed and kids now don't even go out to play in most places so telling me that kids will do these things on their own isn't true anymore. I don't like it anymore than anyone else but we have to take what we've got and work with it. c
> Children also don't do sports much at primary school level ( 5-11 in the UK) there's no teaches running cricket, football, netball etc after school anymore. PE lessons in primary schools is just about non existent and PE teachers in secondary schools ( 11-16) are the first to be given the chop with the budget cuts or a teacher in another discipline is asked to stand in.
> We owe it to our children, if we can't go back to when they could play out, be adventurous on their own, to at least inspire them to look for sports to do. My worry as I said is that this activity I've been told is to introduce them to karate, to give them a 'basic skill' and get them to look at a sport they don't know. All of this would be fine if the ones introducing them didn't know anything themselves and will pass on wrong information and techniques. if you are just telling the girls to punch it's one thing, *teaching* them to punch when you don't know yourself is another thing because if they are going to punch and 'chop' as they call it, it's passing on bad habits which do have the potential to cause harm to young wrists and elbows ( as I have actually seen happen to adults in three quarters of an hour boxercise classes) as ell as saying it's 'self defence' training which is a worry.


I don't know where you live,but you can't move for kids out playing with out adult supervision round here.

you back to claiming it is dangerous, balloon tennis is dangerous???? You are rather making my point that risk adverse adults are,spoiling the,development of kids


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Over-generalization and strawman argument.


well either you accept that children are capable of teaching themselves or you stick to your point that adults are a requirement in there physical development there isn't a halfway house


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> well either you accept that children are capable of teaching themselves or you stick to your point that adults are a requirement in there physical development there isn't a halfway house


False dilemma and strawman argument.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> False dilemma and strawman argument.


or you've run out of actual points to refute my arguments.

let's try an easy one, is your,claim still that children can't develop motor skills, such as hitting a ball with a bat, with out adult instruction ?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> I don't know where you live,but you can't move for kids out playing with out adult supervision round here.
> 
> you back to claiming it is dangerous, balloon tennis is dangerous???? You are rather making my point that risk adverse adults are,spoiling the,development of kids



Oh dear. I wish you'd understand that 'dangerous' doesn't mean the same thing as 'injurious'. It isn't dangerous to punch incorrectly, it can be injurious to young wrists and elbows ( as it actually can be to adults) to punch vigorously when the technique is incorrect.

I'm also not talking about balloon tennis, that's a game that is suggested after the girls punch away into air. You are deliberately misquoting and misunderstanding to troll.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear. I wish you'd understand that 'dangerous' doesn't mean the same thing as 'injurious'. It isn't dangerous to punch incorrectly, it can be injurious to young wrists and elbows ( as it actually can be to adults) to punch vigorously when the technique is incorrect.
> 
> I'm also not talking about balloon tennis, that's a game that is suggested after the girls punch away into air. You are deliberately misquoting and misunderstanding to troll.


, you were previously suggesting that balloon tennis could cause long term joint problems to wrists, Elbows and shoulders, if that were true it would indeed be classified as dangerous, just like catching javelins would be both injurious    and dangerous


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> , you were previously suggesting that balloon tennis could cause long term joint problems to wrists, Elbows and shoulders, if that were true it would indeed be classified as dangerous, just like catching javelins would be both injurious    and dangerous



Nope, still not 'dangerous', didn't say long term either, I actually said sore wrists which you thought meant sore muscles. We aren't playing word games here, you don't get to make up what other people mean when they post. I also didn't say that playing balloon ( do you have globophilia as you seem quite obsessed with the balloon game?)  tennis would do it, I said that the punching into air is not something people should do without being told to bend their elbows slightly, negates the risk, and that the girls should be taught how to punch properly ie not bent or floppy wrists which also negate the risk of wrist problems ( sore wrists to you). Also not throwing vigorous punches into air will negate shoulder problems. See how simple that is, the use of an instructor who can show them how to do something properly stops it being a negative activity and turns it into a positive one, proper job.
After all *if a job is worth doing it's worth doing properly.*


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> or you've run out of actual points to refute my arguments.
> 
> let's try an easy one, is your,claim still that children can't develop motor skills, such as hitting a ball with a bat, with out adult instruction ?


No.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Nope, still not 'dangerous', didn't say long term either, I actually said sore wrists which you thought meant sore muscles. We aren't playing word games here, you don't get to make up what other people mean when they post. I also didn't say that playing balloon ( do you have globophilia as you seem quite obsessed with the balloon game?)  tennis would do it, I said that the punching into air is not something people should do without being told to bend their elbows slightly, negates the risk, and that the girls should be taught how to punch properly ie not bent or floppy wrists which also negate the risk of wrist problems ( sore wrists to you). Also not throwing vigorous punches into air will negate shoulder problems. See how simple that is, the use of an instructor who can show them how to do something properly stops it being a negative activity and turns it into a positive one, proper job.
> After all *if a job is worth doing it's worth doing properly.*


but they are only punching balloons


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No.


well that's an improvement at least you have dropped that silly claim,


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> you can't move for kids out playing with out adult supervision round here.



And if I'd said kids were playing out everywhere you'd have said 'I don't know where you live but there's no children playing out round here'.  Baiting people on here isn't attractive, clever or funny... though other people's answers to it are clever and witty.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> but they are only punching balloons


*NO, they aren't,* missed the point again, *they are punching into air,* the balloon game is a suggestion to do after the air punching, not the activity. really, how many times do you have to be told?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> well that's an improvement at least you have dropped that silly claim,


You might note that I just said that wasn't my claim. It was your strawman.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> And if I'd said kids were playing out everywhere you'd have said 'I don't know where you live but there's no children playing out round here'.  Baiting people on here isn't attractive, clever or funny... though other people's answers to it are clever and witty.


i, there are indeed hoards of unsupervised children running riot round here , I've passed 60 or so just going to the Chinese for my tea


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> *NO, they aren't,* missed the point again, *they are punching into air,* the balloon game is a suggestion to do after the air punching, not the activity. really, how many times do you have to be told?


it is the activerty,the air punching is only the warm up to the main activity which is balloon tennis,


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> it is the activerty,the air punching is only the warm up to the main activity which is balloon tennis,



Nope. Can't you read. It says *'discover what karate is then play a game'*. I have heard from other leaders who have already done the activity that what they are doing is karate 'lessons' ie lining up bowing and doing air punching and 'chops'. Now you can dispute that but you'd be a fool to because I have the facts not you. Do not try to tell me what other Guiding leaders are doing .



jobo said:


> i, there are indeed hoards of unsupervised children running riot round here , I've passed 60 or so just going to the Chinese for my tea



You missed the point again didn't you. I am saying you are arguing for the sake of it.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.
> 
> At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).


I agree.

To me, the best case here is to have an instructor from a local martial arts program teach the class.  Next best, give the leaders some actual hands on training and instruction to coach them safely.  Third best, a detailed lesson plan, probably including videos if possible, to show the leaders how to teach the material.

But what this seems to be is "here are a couple coaching cards and activities to do to earn the badge."  Insufficient, and too much wiggle room.


----------



## Steve (Jul 23, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....


We made slingshots that worked, but I'm afraid our bows never did much.


----------



## Steve (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not adding the qualifier. I'm going from what he wrote about kids being able to do things properly without input from adults, and adults basically messing things up.
> 
> At that age, I was probably swinging baseball bats and tennis rackets. My dad gave me some coaching on both, so I'd be able to do them at least somewhat correctly. That's about all that's needed when a kid is just playing around with them like that. If they're going to do something for 30-60 minutes straight, and the point is to introduce them to an activity, they should be given some marginally competent input. That is for both safety reasons (if there's any safety concern, and I think there is some reason behind that concern with repetitive punching for that long) and so they are actually being introduced to the activity, and not something vaguely related to it (see my earlier post about gymnastics).


Okay.   I think kids need both.   This isn't a binary thing.   They I'm not saying that what you describe is bad or wrong or whatever.   I'm saying it's just fine, AND kids don't always need proper adult supervision telling them how to do things.   Give a kid a ball or a stick and they'll figure out a way to play with it, which is also very healthy.  

And once again, lest the real point be lost.  The op is making a little more of this than necessary.   As usual, there's an amusing element of hand wringing which I think is indicative of the helicopter parenting we see a lot nowadays.  Kids aren't made of glass.  I get the idea, and even agree that a karate instructor would be a better choice to introduce karate to kids.  And I also view this activity as described in the op as being harmless and probably good fun for the kids.  

this thread is a lot of conflict for no reason, as people needlessly begin choosing sides.


----------



## Steve (Jul 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> I agree.
> 
> To me, the best case here is to have an instructor from a local martial arts program teach the class.  Next best, give the leaders some actual hands on training and instruction to coach them safely.  Third best, a detailed lesson plan, probably including videos if possible, to show the leaders how to teach the material.
> 
> But what this seems to be is "here are a couple coaching cards and activities to do to earn the badge."  Insufficient, and too much wiggle room.


i don't disagree with the first paragraph,   I think your conclusion is a little extreme.   It's only insufficient if you believe the kids will actually learn some karate.  In an hour, regardless of how qualified the instructor is, the best you'll get with the 5 -7 year olds, is a lot of fun.  And an experienced guide, even with no karate experience, will be more than capable of managing that safely.


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> No.


And it never has been...


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Nope. Can't you read. It says *'discover what karate is then play a game'*. I have heard from other leaders who have already done the activity that what they are doing is karate 'lessons' ie lining up bowing and doing air punching and 'chops'. Now you can dispute that but you'd be a fool to because I have the facts not you. Do not try to tell me what other Guiding leaders are doing .
> 
> 
> 
> You missed the point again didn't you. I am saying you are arguing for the sake of it.


well there not doing what is on the card are they, but they,still aren't doing karate, they are lining up, bowing and punching balloons


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> And it never has been...


his point was indeed that a kid couldn't learn to use a bat correctly with out adult instruction


----------



## jks9199 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> his point was indeed that a kid couldn't learn to use a bat correctly with out adult instruction


You seem to read a lot in absolutes, rather than recognizing that there can be different levels or degrees of learning.  Certainly a kid can pick up a bat or racket and swing it around.  They can imitate what they've seen, too...  but to really get it "right", to learn the best or most efficient and effective ways -- they'll need proper coaching and instruction.  As I've said -- I think that the program as Tez described it is inadequate because it doesn't seem to cover enough for an inexperienced leader to prevent problems, and leaves too much room for them to improvise based on what they've seen in movies or TV.  I offered several ways to address those problems, up to and including bringing a local karate teacher in as a "guest leader."


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> You seem to read a lot in absolutes, rather than recognizing that there can be different levels or degrees of learning.  Certainly a kid can pick up a bat or racket and swing it around.  They can imitate what they've seen, too...  but to really get it "right", to learn the best or most efficient and effective ways -- they'll need proper coaching and instruction.  As I've said -- I think that the program as Tez described it is inadequate because it doesn't seem to cover enough for an inexperienced leader to prevent problems, and leaves too much room for them to improvise based on what they've seen in movies or TV.  I offered several ways to address those problems, up to and including bringing a local karate teacher in as a "guest leader."


he asked me if a kid could learn to use a bat correctly with out adult supervision, when I said yes, h told me  was wrong.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Is it just me who isn't happy about people who have no idea about martial arts teaching a class on 'karate' thinking they know what it is and how to do it?



I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.

Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not.  Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them.  It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.

But no one is telling kids they shouldn't attempt dance without a qualified coach, or swing a baseball bat without a certified professional around.  Kids don't need fully certified instructors to learn to ride a bike or a skateboard.  They will learn to climb without a experienced climber present.

A major mainstream kids organization introducing the idea of martial arts as a fun and healthy activity is a good thing.  We need to build interest not restrict it.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.
> 
> Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not.  Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them.  It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.
> 
> ...


I be ready made those very points and the opinion expressed was they do indeed need a qualified coach for swinging a bat about


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> it is the activerty,the air punching is only the warm up to the main activity which is balloon tennis,


So, 40 minutes of warm-up, then a short game? I'm with you now.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.
> 
> Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not.  Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them.  It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.
> 
> ...


And the OP isn't suggesting kids shouldn't play MA without supervision. She's suggesting that "introducing them to Karate" without any knowledge of the art is at best inaccurate, and has some potential to be done poorly enough to cause (probably short-term) harm.

Again, to me, this would be like introducing "gymnastics" with no real understanding of the discipline, perhaps having them bounce around a bit. It's fun, and could be done safely, but it's not an intro to gymnastics. And if it's done poorly, it could set up some unnecessary injuries.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> I be ready made those very points and the opinion expressed was they do indeed need a qualified coach for swinging a bat about


Actually, those aren't the points you made, at all. If they were what you intended, you missed - as you missed the point in the reply (which you once again state inaccurately here).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> Okay.   I think kids need both.   This isn't a binary thing.   They I'm not saying that what you describe is bad or wrong or whatever.   I'm saying it's just fine, AND kids don't always need proper adult supervision telling them how to do things.   Give a kid a ball or a stick and they'll figure out a way to play with it, which is also very healthy.
> 
> And once again, lest the real point be lost.  The op is making a little more of this than necessary.   As usual, there's an amusing element of hand wringing which I think is indicative of the helicopter parenting we see a lot nowadays.  Kids aren't made of glass.  I get the idea, and even agree that a karate instructor would be a better choice to introduce karate to kids.  And I also view this activity as described in the op as being harmless and probably good fun for the kids.
> 
> this thread is a lot of conflict for no reason, as people needlessly begin choosing sides.


I agree with what you're saying. What I'm arguing is that giving them improper (un-knowledgeable) guidance and calling it an introduction is not a good approach. I wouldn't give a kid a bat and ball and call that an intro to baseball, nor would I try to draw an idea of what baseball players do by watching some movies (it sounds like a very similar thing is happening with these leaders). I'd just give them the tools and let them have fun, or make up a game for them. But if the goal is to introduce them to baseball, there should probably be something of baseball involved.

There's a small element of risk if this is done improperly. It may be overstated - I'm not an expert on that, so I'll accept that is a possibility. That risk can be mitigated pretty easily, though, by having some guidelines on the full activity, and maybe a short training video for the leaders. Otherwise, maybe don't call it an intro to Karate, and just do the fun games without the air-punching.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> his point was indeed that a kid couldn't learn to use a bat correctly with out adult instruction


You're leaving out two key parts of your incorrect statement. First, the age group (specified in the initial post). Second, that you were the one who claimed kids of that age (I can only assume you're referring to the same age group, since you didn't specify otherwise) can, in fact, learn such skills properly without any help.

Most kids do have help in learning those skills. They come from parents who know how to do them (like my dad did), other kids who are better at them (my cousins were always better at baseball than me), and maybe even coaches, if they ever play in a league. Very rare is the child who learns to swing a baseball bat properly with no input from someone else.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> he asked me if a kid could learn to use a bat correctly with out adult supervision, when I said yes, h told me  was wrong.


Incorrect, again. I said you're hanging out with very different 5-7 year olds than I ever have.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, 40 minutes of warm-up, then a short game? I'm with you now.


do you really thing these kids can air punch for 40 mins


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

Andrew Green said:


> I think martial artists in general take themselves way to seriously, and it hurts our growth as a industry.



Industry? It may be to you but to the people I know and train with it's not an industry at all.



Andrew Green said:


> Kids are going to play at "martial arts" whether you tell them too or not. Giving them some basic guidelines, a structure and a name to it isn't going to hurt them. It might even get them thinking martial arts is a fun thing they might want to try.



Actually I know from experience that young girls don't tend to play at 'martial arts', if they do they tend to be stopped by adults who tell them it's not feminine or 'ladylike'. Giving them a basic structure is exactly what I was thinking about, not having them do 'karate' by people who do nothing about martial arts. I'm not saying don't do it, I'm saying have someone come in who has the knowledge and enthusiasm to inspire the girls.






Andrew Green said:


> A major mainstream kids organization introducing the idea of martial arts as a fun and healthy activity is a good thing. We need to build interest not restrict it



Who said anything about restricting it, I have given my Rainbow's karate and some self defence lessons, I'm also asked to show the older Brownies, Guides and Rangers martial arts.  You are misreading if you think I want to restrict it. What I'm saying is let's not have people who know nothing about martial arts trying to teach karate, instead let's have a _qualified instructor in who can make it fun, interesting and informative as well as teach them a few things done properly. _Is that too much to ask?


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're leaving out two key parts of your incorrect statement. First, the age group (specified in the initial post). Second, that you were the one who claimed kids of that age (I can only assume you're referring to the same age group, since you didn't specify otherwise) can, in fact, learn such skills properly without any help.
> 
> Most kids do have help in learning those skills. They come from parents who know how to do them (like my dad did), other kids who are better at them (my cousins were always better at baseball than me), and maybe even coaches, if they ever play in a league. Very rare is the child who learns to swing a baseball bat properly with no input from someone else.


very rare, , ok so now your admitting that learning from other children is possible, so no adult needed


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> do you really thing these kids can air punch for 40 mins


None that I've worked with have, but I've never tried to get them to do that. The OP has stated that this has already happened in some cases. I don't work with kids (don't have the patience for it), so I'm not sure if that's realistic or not.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> very rare, , ok so now your admitting that learning from other children is possible, so no adult needed


I never said it wasn't possible. Mind you, it's not going to be happening among 5-7 year olds who don't know the skill already.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> do you really thing these kids can air punch for 40 mins



Yes, because the leaders don't lie (see below) besides there's no reason to and because I've seen plenty of children punching  for that long and sometimes longer. There used to be a TKD club where I am, the chief instructor took quite young children and had them drilling for long amounts of time. I didn't like it but not my club. 

*The Guide Law*

*A Guide is honest, reliable and can be trusted.*
A Guide is helpful and uses her time and abilities wisely.
A Guide faces challenge and learns from her experiences.
A Guide is a good friend and a sister to all Guides.
A Guide is polite and considerate.
A Guide respects all living things and takes care of the world around h


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Yes, because the leaders don't lie (see below) besides there's no reason to and because I've seen plenty of children punching  for that long and sometimes longer. There used to be a TKD club where I am, the chief instructor took quite young children and had them drilling for long amounts of time. I didn't like it but not my club.
> 
> *The Guide Law*
> 
> ...


 five yo can't,air punch for 40mins, most adults can only manage five mins, your talking nonsense, they law needs another section, guides,shouldn't grossly exaggerate to try and win an argument


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I never said it wasn't possible. Mind you, it's not going to be happening among 5-7 year olds who don't know the skill already.


7 yo can learn from 9 yo


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> five yo can't,air punch for 40mins, most adults can only manage five mins, your talking nonsense, they law needs another section, guides,shouldn't grossly exaggerate to try and win an argument



Being disagreeable again? *I see at least you admit you are arguing. I am not*.

Every since you joined MT you have made it your business to be disagreeable and argumentative, one person has already left MT because of you, how many others will think it's a waste of time posting anything, starting new threads because you destroy them? And it is a waste of time, you don't contribute anything to discussions just be argumentative. it's getting tiresome, I wanted feedback laid out in a positive way even if doesn't gel with my thoughts but instead I have you, picking bits out, sneering, arguing, quibbling, misquoting and causing people I would really like to hear from not to post. The people who contributed positively and I don't mean agreed with me, I thank them but as far as I'm concerned I'm done, you can take your pettiness off to a new thread and spoil someone else's thread.


----------



## jobo (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Being disagreeable again? *I see at least you admit you are arguing. I am not*.
> 
> Every since you joined MT you have made it your business to be disagreeable and argumentative, one person has already left MT because of you, how many others will think it's a waste of time posting anything, starting new threads because you destroy them? And it is a waste of time, you don't contribute anything to discussions just be argumentative. it's getting tiresome, I wanted feedback laid out in a positive way even if doesn't gel with my thoughts but instead I have you, picking bits out, sneering, arguing, quibbling, misquoting and causing people I would really like to hear from not to post. The people who contributed positively and I don't mean agreed with me, I thank them but as far as I'm concerned I'm done, you can take your pettiness off to a new thread and spoil someone else's thread.


bored now, you carry on being a kill joy


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Industry? It may be to you but to the people I know and train with it's not an industry at all.



You have people exchanging money for services... It's a industry.



> Who said anything about restricting it, I have given my Rainbow's karate and some self defence lessons, I'm also asked to show the older Brownies, Guides and Rangers martial arts.  You are misreading if you think I want to restrict it. What I'm saying is let's not have people who know nothing about martial arts trying to teach karate, instead let's have a _qualified instructor in who can make it fun, interesting and informative as well as teach them a few things done properly. _Is that too much to ask?



It's a matter of practicality.  Lots of kids programs aim to introduce a huge variety of things to kids.  They don't bring in someone with a fine arts degree to teach crafts, they don't bring in a certified coach to play dodgeball and it should come as no surprise that they don't bring in a expert to do the martial arts piece.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> *NO, they aren't,* missed the point again, *they are punching into air,* the balloon game is a suggestion to do after the air punching, not the activity. really, how many times do you have to be told?


I don't know why you bother trying to explain stuff to Jobo.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 23, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Awesome! And if you were lucky enough to find a sturdy enough y-shape tree branch you could make a serviceable catapult with rubber band propulsion.. Tho I could never get it to work too good.. maybe if I had had proper adult tuition or some thing....



We did glove guns.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 23, 2017)

I dont know. I have seen kids. They are mostly running head first into things. I am not sure what damage bad karate is really going to do in the scheme of things.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> 7 yo can learn from 9 yo


To a limited extent, and I actually mentioned that earlier. But in the context specified, there wouldn't be a 9-year-old present.


----------



## jobo (Jul 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> To a limited extent, and I actually mentioned that earlier. But in the context specified, there wouldn't be a 9-year-old present.


you question to me was can a 5 to 7 yo larn to use a bat of some description correctly with out ADULT INSTRUCTION.
and my answer was certainly, they have been doing it for many many generations, through trial and error , through imitation of people on the TV, by copying other children who are better.

give a kid a tennis bat and ball and a wall to hit it against and in little lime they will be knocking it back to themselves. Then put them on a tennis court and they will be playing to a reasonable,standard for their age and ability in no time

you could make a point that coaching would speed up this process and they would be better sooner, or just better. But that doesn't alter the fact that they can teach themselves to develop first the hand eye co ordination to hit it and then the techneque to hit it where they want it to go through experimentation and practise

I watched my 7yo niece who is a,particularly determined child, pick up a table tennis bat for the first time and with in an hour was beating adults, not very good adults you understand but,adults never the less.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> you question to me was can a 5 to 7 yo larn to use a bat of some description correctly with out ADULT INSTRUCTION.
> and my answer was certainly, they have been doing it for many many generations, through trial and error , through imitation of people on the TV, by copying other children who are better.
> 
> give a kid a tennis bat and ball and a wall to hit it against and in little lime they will be knocking it back to themselves. Then put them on a tennis court and they will be playing to a reasonable,standard for their age and ability in no time
> ...


If your 7-year-old niece is beating adults at table tennis within an hour, either they are awful, or she is a prodigy. Or they are letting her win. Has to be one or more of the three. I'm only passably competent at it, and I could easily beat an experienced 7-year-old non-prodigy, by sheer dint of reach.


----------



## jobo (Jul 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If your 7-year-old niece is beating adults at table tennis within an hour, either they are awful, or she is a prodigy. Or they are letting her win. Has to be one or more of the three. I'm only passably competent at it, and I could easily beat an experienced 7-year-old non-prodigy, by sheer dint of reach.


 she is a well co ordonated child, but the point remains that in little time she had taught her self to play well enough to land the ball back on their side of the net with spin


----------



## jobo (Jul 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> she is a well co ordonated child, but the point remains that in little time she had taught her self to play well enough to land the ball back on their side of the net with spin


she was also knocking tennis balls with a base ball bat away into the,distance 4times out of ten in less than an hour, through she did nearly kill the dog with one,swing


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> she is a well co ordonated child, but the point remains that in little time she had taught her self to play well enough to land the ball back on their side of the net with spin


Then she is exceptional. Exceptions cannot reasonably be used to develop approaches for all children.


----------



## jobo (Jul 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Then she is exceptional. Exceptions cannot reasonably be used to develop approaches for all children.


her speed of learning is exceptional, that she can learn through experience and practise is an ability common to all children.
I don't know why you doubt it to be true, the evidence of children learning things with no adult instruction is all around you.

every kid round here can wheelie their mountain bike, there isn't a wheelie your mountain bike coach teaching them how to do that and its a particualy hard skill to master, I've been trying for 5years now


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> her speed of learning is exceptional, that she can learn through experience and practise is an ability common to all children.
> I don't know why you doubt it to be true, the evidence of children learning things with no adult instruction is all around you.
> 
> every kid round here can wheelie their mountain bike, there isn't a wheelie your mountain bike coach teaching them how to do that and its a particualy hard skill to master, I've been trying for 5years now


Children do not typically learn complex skills (like sports movements) quickly without help. Remember, we're not talking about kids having ages to learn this - it's a single activity period. You're getting very lost in your arguments, losing track of what we're actually discussing.


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2017)

Well, regardless of whether karate is well taught or not, I do wish that the Girl Scouts of America were still like how I believe Tez3 runs the guides in the UK.  This program seems like what I had hoped for in the GSA, but I would be very surprised if a girl scouts group did anything at all beyond selling cookies.  Maybe there are some terrific troop leaders out there, but I haven't had found them yet.

If the brownie troop had done even this karate activity, maybe we'd still be involved.


----------



## jobo (Jul 24, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Children do not typically learn complex skills (like sports movements) quickly without help. Remember, we're not talking about kids having ages to learn this - it's a single activity period. You're getting very lost in your arguments, losing track of what we're actually discussing.


you turned the discussion to bats.
I've given up on the other one, people were just being silly


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2017)

jobo said:


> you turned the discussion to bats.
> I've given up on the other one, people were just being silly


Perhaps I should give this one up, for much the same reason.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Well, regardless of whether karate is well taught or not, I do wish that the Girl Scouts of America were still like how I believe Tez3 runs the guides in the UK.  This program seems like what I had hoped for in the GSA, but I would be very surprised if a girl scouts group did anything at all beyond selling cookies.  Maybe there are some terrific troop leaders out there, but I haven't had found them yet.
> 
> If the brownie troop had done even this karate activity, maybe we'd still be involved.



I don't hold with gender specific scouts. 

We dont have them.


----------



## Steve (Jul 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I don't hold with gender specific scouts.
> 
> We dont have them.


Okay.  Someone tell me what we have that's like that.   Is there anything like that left in America???


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Okay.  Someone tell me what we have that's like that.   Is there anything like that left in America???


Nothing I'm aware of. I'm with DB on this. While there are some advantages to be had from gender-specific opportunities, I think there's more to be gained from both genders learning to work in a mixed-gender situation.


----------

