# Skip Dan Test



## Nikos Botsios (Aug 16, 2019)

Hello to eveyrone in martial arts community I hope you are fine and having a great time.
I would like to ask you something: Can you have a Skip Dan Test right now or Kukkiwon stopped it?


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## Gweilo (Aug 16, 2019)

How can you skip a dan, double grade at a lower level,  but skip a dan, sounds like a con to me


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 16, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> How can you skip a dan, double grade at a lower level,  but skip a dan, sounds like a con to me


Check out this thread for reasons why

Skip dan testing?


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## skribs (Aug 16, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> How can you skip a dan, double grade at a lower level,  but skip a dan, sounds like a con to me



There's a lot of reasons I can think of.  The two biggest are:

Similar rank in a similar organization
Stuck in an area with nobody who can promote you


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> There's a lot of reasons I can think of.  The two biggest are:
> 
> Similar rank in a similar organization
> Stuck in an area with nobody who can promote you


The third one in that list: you earned the rank, but for whatever reason (clerical error, deceit/greed, or laziness) your instructor never sent your stuff to the kukkiwon without your knowledge.


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## skribs (Aug 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> The third one in that list: you earned the rank, but for whatever reason (clerical error, deceit/greed, or laziness) your instructor never sent your stuff to the kukkiwon without your knowledge.



We've had students at my school who were supposed to test for black belt at their old school, paid cash, and then the instructor skipped town.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 16, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> How can you skip a dan, double grade at a lower level,  but skip a dan, sounds like a con to me


There are a lot of reasons this could happen. I don't know about Kukkiwon, but some organizations do it if someone tests for one dan, but is actually able to pass the next dan up. With contribution-based dan ranks (upper ranks for contribution to the art) it's a bit more common, especially where the rank is part of the hierarchy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> We've had students at my school who were supposed to test for black belt at their old school, paid cash, and then the instructor skipped town.


Sadly this seems to be at least somewhat common. And the worst part of it is, there's nothing kukkiwon (or any other organization) can do about it. They can't prevent someone from claiming they will send the information, and they don't know if someone is telling the truth, when they claimed they were wronged that way.


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## skribs (Aug 16, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Sadly this seems to be at least somewhat common. And the worst part of it is, there's nothing kukkiwon (or any other organization) can do about it. They can't prevent someone from claiming they will send the information, and they don't know if someone is telling the truth, when they claimed they were wronged that way.



And because they paid cash, there's no proof they even paid when they want to report the guy for fraud.


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## WaterGal (Aug 17, 2019)

My understanding is that they've set some limitations, but it's still possible. I think you have to have gotten your first dan (so if your instructor did one those shady things mentioned and you never even got a real KKW 1st dan, you're SOL), and there's a limit to how many dan grades you can skip. You have to have enough time in grade to have done the proper way, too, so you can't use skip dan testing to rank up faster. The person promoting you needs to write to KKW some document explaining to them your circumstances, training history, and why they think you deserve the skip dan, and then KKW will decide if that's a good enough reason or not.


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## Headhunter (Aug 19, 2019)

skribs said:


> We've had students at my school who were supposed to test for black belt at their old school, paid cash, and then the instructor skipped town.


And that is why I never pay for tests until the day of them


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## skribs (Aug 19, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> And that is why I never pay for tests until the day of them



Or if they had paid with credit or check, they could at least prove they made payment.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 20, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> And that is why I never pay for tests until the day of them


Even then, if you're in an organization, you can pass the test, and they run off without processing your degree with the org. Which is fine, except for when you go somewhere else, and they have to decide if they want to honor the rank you're claiming.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 21, 2019)

skribs said:


> Or if they had paid with credit or check, they could at least prove they made payment.


And you could make a fraud claim with your credit card, if you paid for a service that was never rendered, and a refund is refused.  Credit card company will likely give you the refund, and may investigate the transaction and possibly go after the instructor.  But it’s out of your hands at that point.  At least you got your money back.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> And you could make a fraud claim with your credit card, if you paid for a service that was never rendered, and a refund is refused.  Credit card company will likely give you the refund, and may investigate the transaction and possibly go after the instructor.  But it’s out of your hands at that point.  At least you got your money back.


There's even a sideways chance that the instructor wants to keep the money so will "resolve the dispute" by filing the promotion with the association.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There's even a sideways chance that the instructor wants to keep the money so will "resolve the dispute" by filing the promotion with the association.


Yup, might need a kick in the pants to get it done.


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## dvcochran (Aug 29, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Sadly this seems to be at least somewhat common. And the worst part of it is, there's nothing kukkiwon (or any other organization) can do about it. They can't prevent someone from claiming they will send the information, and they don't know if someone is telling the truth, when they claimed they were wronged that way.


As with many things nowadays I think there will soon be an online system to reduce/prevent such occurrences. It would certainly shore up the validity and integrity of the belt system. There would have to be some kind of 2-way system to verify the person testing is qualified on both ends and not on a Rambo mission. This could be a systemic part of school/instructor certification as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> As with many things nowadays I think there will soon be an online system to reduce/prevent such occurrences. It would certainly shore up the validity and integrity of the belt system. There would have to be some kind of 2-way system to verify the person testing is qualified on both ends and not on a Rambo mission. This could be a systemic part of school/instructor certification as well.


I could see that within a large organization. Not sure at all how that would work outside the context of a single organization.


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## dvcochran (Aug 30, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I could see that within a large organization. Not sure at all how that would work outside the context of a single organization.


I can make a comparison to people who are certified in a skilled trade. Whether it is as an electrician or a doctor there are steps to be certified and recognized as an authority in your field. There have always been shade tree mechanics and witch doctors so I don't think any system would be perfect. 
The gist is it would never prevent someone from practicing or being involved in MA. It would remove many outliers that have caused reputation issues for many years. 
Yes, it would be more difficult for the average bloke to open "Joe's karate school". I don't think that is a bad thing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I can make a comparison to people who are certified in a skilled trade. Whether it is as an electrician or a doctor there are steps to be certified and recognized as an authority in your field. There have always been shade tree mechanics and witch doctors so I don't think any system would be perfect.
> The gist is it would never prevent someone from practicing or being involved in MA. It would remove many outliers that have caused reputation issues for many years.
> Yes, it would be more difficult for the average bloke to open "Joe's karate school". I don't think that is a bad thing.


It would be more problematic than that. Imagine if the same system of certification were to be applied to electricians, plumbers, and general contractors. That's not far from analogous to trying to include TKD, BJJ, and Aikido in the same system. At best, you'd need a separate system for each group of arts. And how do you account (in that system) for un-aligned ranks (10-yr shodan vs 3-yr shodan)? I don't really think it's workable. And if it were imposed, it would drive folks to stay within larger organizations, reducing the evolution that happens as groups split.


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## dvcochran (Aug 30, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It would be more problematic than that. Imagine if the same system of certification were to be applied to electricians, plumbers, and general contractors. That's not far from analogous to trying to include TKD, BJJ, and Aikido in the same system. At best, you'd need a separate system for each group of arts. And how do you account (in that system) for un-aligned ranks (10-yr shodan vs 3-yr shodan)? I don't really think it's workable. And if it were imposed, it would drive folks to stay within larger organizations, reducing the evolution that happens as groups split.


But they are not the same certification. Electricians, plumbers, orthopedics, gynecologists, etc..., all have different training and certification. There are one man companies up to mega corporations so size is not a leading factor. In some professions there are layers in broad brush strokes, bachelors in whatever for example, but I see no reason there could not be something similar for different styles. There are specialty fields in every skilled trade I can think of so why can't there be "specialist" or unique styles within a given system?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> But they are not the same certification. Electricians, plumbers, orthopedics, gynecologists, etc..., all have different training and certification. There are one man companies up to mega corporations so size is not a leading factor. In some professions there are layers in broad brush strokes, bachelors in whatever for example, but I see no reason there could not be something similar for different styles. There are specialty fields in every skilled trade I can think of so why can't there be "specialist" or unique styles within a given system?


That was my point - it wouldn't be a single thing, but one for each group (I thought you were saying it would be a single source). I'm not sure how different that would be from what we have now. There would be an arbiter of who belongs in each list, and that's going to be back to who's in an association.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2019)

Who gets to be the authority for each system, in establishing the credentials?  Gonna be LOTS of argument over that, just for starters. 

Martial arts are/were a folk art, passed down from generation to generation, among families and close-knit societies.  Personally I would like to see it stay that way.  I think big certifying agencies are not necessarily a good thing.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Who gets to be the authority for each system, in establishing the credentials?  Gonna be LOTS of argument over that, just for starters.
> 
> Martial arts are/were a folk art, passed down from generation to generation, among families and close-knit societies.  Personally I would like to see it stay that way.  I think big certifying agencies are not necessarily a good thing.


Why would that go away? A vehicle to help people Not end up being sucker for a disreputable person/school is never a bad thing. It is no difference from the risk people take going to a soothsayer vs. going to a credentialed doctor. The choice would always be there.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Why would that go away? A vehicle to help people Not end up being sucker for a disreputable person/school is never a bad thing. It is no difference from the risk people take going to a soothsayer vs. going to a credentialed doctor. The choice would always be there.


So it really just becomes another organization.  Participation is optional and it has no real authority other than among those who choose to belong.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Why would that go away? A vehicle to help people Not end up being sucker for a disreputable person/school is never a bad thing. It is no difference from the risk people take going to a soothsayer vs. going to a credentialed doctor. The choice would always be there.


I guess I don't see how that's any different from any MA association.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> So it really just becomes another organization.  Participation is optional and it has no real authority other than among those who choose to belong.


I don't see it that way at all. Diligence and effort go a long way. The instructors/schools who value being known/seen as credible will make every effort to be seen that way. Why is there something wrong with certifying that their product And their business is credible? The average person who has zero MA exposure would benefit from such tools. So would the MA community as a whole. 
No, I don't feel participation should be optional but it would infringe on free enterprise to say that.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I don't see it that way at all. Diligence and effort go a long way. The instructors/schools who value being known/seen as credible will make every effort to be seen that way. Why is there something wrong with certifying that their product And their business is credible? The average person who has zero MA exposure would benefit from such tools. So would the MA community as a whole.
> No, I don't feel participation should be optional but it would infringe on free enterprise to say that.


I’m trying to make sure I understand what you are saying.  Is this a government credential or something you envision?  Oversight on a governmental level?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I don't see it that way at all. Diligence and effort go a long way. The instructors/schools who value being known/seen as credible will make every effort to be seen that way. Why is there something wrong with certifying that their product And their business is credible? The average person who has zero MA exposure would benefit from such tools. So would the MA community as a whole.
> No, I don't feel participation should be optional but it would infringe on free enterprise to say that.


There's nothing wrong with the concept. But how will it be done? On what basis will a given instructor/school be certified?


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There's nothing wrong with the concept. But how will it be done? On what basis will a given instructor/school be certified?


You know how these things go. A number of people, supposed experts debate that question for years and finally enough common ground is found to develop a process. Then the competition begins to decide/vote on who is going to be in charge. Eventually some fruitful and reliable results are established.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m trying to make sure I understand what you are saying.  Is this a government credential or something you envision?  Oversight on a governmental level?


It would have to have some kind of regulatory commission so yes, it would likely be a government entity. At the very least industry regulators, (like OSHA, EPA, NFPA, etc...)


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It would have to have some kind of regulatory commission so yes, it would likely be a government entity. At the very least industry regulators, (like OSHA, EPA, NFPA, etc...)


Ok well, I disagree with government regulation in this particular arena, and given the sheer number of different martial arts, some of which are obscure and have very few practitioners, I cannot imagine how it could be successful.  It would likely reduce them all down to some simplistic common denominator with everything the same.  I think it could be the death of many systems.

Actually, likely it would all go underground and people would just keep doing what they do.  It would just prevent people from opening schools and teaching openly.  It might ensure that most of it goes back into the arena of a folk method.  Likely the results would be the opposite of what is intended.

Hmmm... how exciting...


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You know how these things go. A number of people, supposed experts debate that question for years and finally enough common ground is found to develop a process. Then the competition begins to decide/vote on who is going to be in charge. Eventually some fruitful and reliable results are established.


Ask the wing Chun folks who they all would be willing to accept as the National Wing Chun Authority.   See if you can get any consensus on that...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You know how these things go. A number of people, supposed experts debate that question for years and finally enough common ground is found to develop a process. Then the competition begins to decide/vote on who is going to be in charge. Eventually some fruitful and reliable results are established.


In my experience, what happens instead is that the exact process you describe occurs, and results in disagreement and competing standards. Which is pretty much what we have now. As I said, I like the concept, but I don't see how it ever ends up with a single authority, even within a given group of arts.

Let's start with a simpler question: what would be certified? That, even, would likely be an area of contention. Does it certify that the instructor has trained for the number of years they claim (with whom, at what regularity, etc.)?  Does it certify that they're approved to teach (approved by whom, to teach what, to what level, etc.)? Does it certify that they are passing along something that accurately represents that art (as designated by whom)?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Ask the wing Chun folks who they all would be willing to accept as the National Wing Chun Authority.   See if you can get any consensus on that...


I know of a few WC folks who'd be willing to claim that position.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I know of a few WC folks who'd be willing to claim that position.


Oh I’m sure they would be willing and eager to claim it.  But how many would accept them in that role?  I’m guessing nobody who lies outside their direct downstream lineage.

Take Tibetan White Crane.  There are very few people in the US who even practice it.  Good luck even tracking them down to determine who the real authority is.  Good luck getting an 80 year-old Chinese immigrant to take a job as a government regulator.  Does a system like this just get overlooked, and by default becomes illegal to teach because it is unregulated?

Take a look at all the variations within the American Kenpo groups.  There is so much inconsistency between different groups and lineages, and some heavy egos in the mix, there is no way they would submit as a body, to some regulators.


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## skribs (Sep 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I know of a few WC folks who'd be willing to claim that position.



I don't even train Wing Chun and I'll claim that position.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> In my experience, what happens instead is that the exact process you describe occurs, and results in disagreement and competing standards. Which is pretty much what we have now. As I said, I like the concept, but I don't see how it ever ends up with a single authority, even within a given group of arts.
> 
> Let's start with a simpler question: what would be certified? That, even, would likely be an area of contention. Does it certify that the instructor has trained for the number of years they claim (with whom, at what regularity, etc.)?  Does it certify that they're approved to teach (approved by whom, to teach what, to what level, etc.)? Does it certify that they are passing along something that accurately represents that art (as designated by whom)?



Requirements could include: 
Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).
Health and safety
Building, workout area standards
Business model/promotion/networking

These should be refined over time.

The first bullet would have the heaviest weight. Just like with certification and qualification in other professions a person history, experience, and promotion within their style(s) would accelerate the process. If a person wanted to stay independent and was not worried about student/class size it would not be very important to them. The has and always will be room for both. They are not mutually exclusive. I have never felt there is enough networking within the MA community outside a given style/organization.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Requirements could include:
> Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).
> Health and safety
> Building, workout area standards
> ...


How does one prove the competency, and who is the judge of that?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Requirements could include:
> Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).


This is where most of the problem lies. How will the governmental body know what I ought to be teaching? Or the MMA coach down the road? Or the guy who trains Olympic hopefuls for TKD? 



> Health and safety
> Building, workout area standards
> Business model/promotion/networking


The business areas of it are irrelevant to someone's teaching ability, especially where that's not the objective of the school (not trying to run it for profit).



> These should be refined over time.
> 
> The first bullet would have the heaviest weight. Just like with certification and qualification in other professions a person history, experience, and promotion within their style(s) would accelerate the process. If a person wanted to stay independent and was not worried about student/class size it would not be very important to them. The has and always will be room for both. They are not mutually exclusive. I have never felt there is enough networking within the MA community outside a given style/organization.


Again, the concept is tempting, but as soon as any details are examined, it gets hard for me to imagine it being successful. Within a single organization, it kind of works, but even there it tends to stifle evolution of technique. How much more restrictive will it become when it has a larger bureaucracy behind it?

I could see this, instead, as a way to set up a program to help build stronger schools. I toyed at one time with the idea of setting up instructor workshop series, working with some good instructors to build curriculum to help all of us improve. Kind of like a SCORE (Service Corps Of Retired Executives) concept for MA. I could even imagine an Associate's degree (for those outside the US, that's a 2-year degree typically earned from a community college) that includes basic small business training, learning theory (adult and juvenile), safety, etc.


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> This is where most of the problem lies. How will the governmental body know what I ought to be teaching? Or the MMA coach down the road? Or the guy who trains Olympic hopefuls for TKD?
> 
> 
> The business areas of it are irrelevant to someone's teaching ability, especially where that's not the objective of the school (not trying to run it for profit).
> ...



I am vaguely familiar with SCORE. The notion that is would be difficult to find qualified people at the top levels is the same for both entities. It would have to be people passionate about the health and strength of MA's and have ample experience. 
But the purpose within the idea is the same. 

I hate using this analogy but it is all I can think of. It is a "good enough" approach. A group to ensure minimum standards are met. The rest is up to the instructor/school.


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> How does one prove the competency, and who is the judge of that?


If you were in charge, how would you improve the competency understand the dynamics involved? There would be little to no difference.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If you were in charge, how would you improve the competency understand the dynamics involved? There would be little to no difference.


I’m sure there would be a lot of difference.  Things that I focus on, that I feel are essential to the training, other people often don’t.  Where does a consensus come from?

For starters, do you envision a regulator/panel of experts from each system, to establish the standards only for that system?  Or do you envision a single panel of people representing several systems, to collectively set a single standard that everyone must follow, regardless of their system?  Or would that same group set standards appropriate for each different system, and if so, how would they determine that if they have no experience with each system?

Whoever the panel is, do they determine what is contained in the curriculum for each system?  If so, how do they determine that?  Do they standardize the forms, and everyone practicing that system needs to do their forms the same?  Does it become illegal to alter a form or create a new one without approval of the regulators?  

What about systems that have a very small following and are obscure, so they get overlooked by the regulators?  As an unregulated entity in a regulated industry, does it become illegal to practice or teach that method?  If someone lawfully defends himself using techniques or methods from one of these unregulated systems, can he be prosecuted for using an unregulated/illegal system?  

 Does every martial art teacher need a teaching credential in physical education?  Or a personal trainer credential,  or a degree in exercise physiology?

What do you envision here?  Because as a mandatory government regulatory action I cannot imagine this happening.


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## Buka (Sep 3, 2019)

In the history of bad ideas, government run Martial Arts is an absolute doozy.


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m sure there would be a lot of difference.  Things that I focus on, that I feel are essential to the training, other people often don’t.  Where does a consensus come from?



Clearly you have never served in your local government. I assure you there are lots of people who have the exact viewpoint and you and just as many who do not. No different from every other walk of like.
  Do not kid yourself that you have some higher perspective.



Flying Crane said:


> For starters, do you envision a regulator/panel of experts from each system, to establish the standards only for that system?  Or do you envision a single panel of people representing several systems, to collectively set a single standard that everyone must follow, regardless of their system?  Or would that same group set standards appropriate for each different system, and if so, how would they determine that if they have no experience with each system?
> 
> Whoever the panel is, do they determine what is contained in the curriculum for each system?  If so, how do they determine that?  Do they standardize the forms, and everyone practicing that system needs to do their forms the same?  Does it become illegal to alter a form or create a new one without approval of the regulators?
> 
> ...



An old industry applies here: look at it from 10,000 feet. Seldom does regulation dictate method or process to the level you describe. An exception would be in an industry like chemical or petroleum where a dangerous process could literally kill thousands. Government could not nor should not.
Of course there would Not be a panel for each system, that is non-sensical. You are getting caught up in Your style or how You teach. That would never be the purpose. Just like there are terrible school teachers and great school teachers, they are both bound by certain standards. School teachers make up their own curriculum, within very loose boundaries of there given subject. A Kung Fu instructor and a Shotokan instructor would be no different. Each school would to the forms and curriculum they design. You want to make your own form, go for it. If you promote your form as the end all/be all tool for self defense then you have stepped out of bounds and could be reprimanded or fined. At the very least warned and posted. 
School size or obscurity has nothing to do with it. If you chose to regulate yourself and got yourself sued or someone hurt it would certainly play against you that you did not follow some established rules. 
Someone defending themselves would be just as likely to be prosecuted regardless of where they worked out. Just like it is now. There are more techniques that crossover to multiple styles that those that do not. IF your style/school promoted a specific technique that was totally exclusive I could see where that may implicate more than just the person who used it illegally. Breaking someone's arm making them bleed in an unsanctioned physical encounter is always going to break some law. That has nothing to do with whether they have had training or not. You have stepped over into moral and ethic areas. 



Flying Crane said:


> Does every martial art teacher need a teaching credential in physical education?  Or a personal trainer credential,  or a degree in exercise physiology?



Nope. They may need to be credentialed depending on their local government standard if they wish to categorize themselves as "self defense instruction" for example.​


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> In the history of bad ideas, government run Martial Arts is an absolute doozy.
> 
> View attachment 22450


Yea, that is a scary picture. But that is not at all what I am saying at all. If you do to the doctors office don't you expect certain levels of cleanliness, knowledge, professionalism, etc...? Why should MA,s be held to a lower standard than anything else?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, that is a scary picture. But that is not at all what I am saying at all. If you do to the doctors office don't you expect certain levels of cleanliness, knowledge, professionalism, etc...? Why should MA,s be held to a lower standard than anything else?


Why is it up to the government to set up that level? Why cant people make their own decisions and judgments, and choose to go/not to go to a dojo based on those judgments?


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Why is it up to the government to set up that level? Why cant people make their own decisions and judgments, and choose to go/not to go to a dojo based on those judgments?


They should and will but what is wrong with easing the process of making an informed decision?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> They should and will but what is wrong with easing the process of making an informed decision?


Because it would 

A: Be taking away our ability to decide what standards we as consumers want (If I want a place that allows for soft training, where I can be a hobbyist who just focuses on myself, but the gov't requires a certain amount of proof that the dojo is doing contact sparring, for instance, I now lost my place of training. If I want a place like the old kenpo or kyokushin places with full-contact bare knuckle sparring, but the gov't feels like there are 'safety concerns' and outlaws that type of practice with their regs, I lost my place of training). 

B: Be taking away from an instructors ability to open up a school/dojo. You would no longer be able to start your school in your backyard/garage/park, and transition when you have enough people. You would have to be putting in time and money from the getgo, which would likely make some people who would open up a school/training group no longer able to do so, and that would be a result based on their finances/ability to put the business on hold, while getting it up to regulations (and I can pretty much guarantee they would not approve "my backyard" as a place for a training group) rather than their ability as instructors.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Clearly you have never served in your local government. I assure you there are lots of people who have the exact viewpoint and you and just as many who do not. No different from every other walk of like.
> Do not kid yourself that you have some higher perspective.
> 
> 
> ...


So again, for about the third time, i am asking you, explain how you envision this to work.  So far you have give very vague non-answers.

or is this all just a put-on?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, that is a scary picture. But that is not at all what I am saying at all. If you do to the doctors office don't you expect certain levels of cleanliness, knowledge, professionalism, etc...? Why should MA,s be held to a lower standard than anything else?


Why do you see the doctor’s office comparison as appropriate?  I don’t.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m sure there would be a lot of difference.  Things that I focus on, that I feel are essential to the training, other people often don’t.  Where does a consensus come from?
> 
> For starters, do you envision a regulator/panel of experts from each system, to establish the standards only for that system?  Or do you envision a single panel of people representing several systems, to collectively set a single standard that everyone must follow, regardless of their system?  Or would that same group set standards appropriate for each different system, and if so, how would they determine that if they have no experience with each system?
> 
> ...


I wonder how much of this is similar to how the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai ("Greater Japanese Martial Virtue Society" or something like that) worked. They designated groups of arts (Karate, Judo, Aikido, etc.) and had some oversight, though I'm really not sure how much. I think instructors were registered with them, to keep some level of accreditation. Of course, that worked to some extent because the arts were all within the Japanese culture - they didn't have to figure out how to include CMA or Western arts.


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2019)

You can't really compare MA to trade qualifications imo.

For example an electrician, there is known and proven theory and practice - everyone who knows, knows what works, what's safe and what is bunkum. There's also set standards as to how much of the theoretical and practical knowledge is required to do each type of job.

Same with medicine to a point - yes it's constantly evolving but there are known standards in each specialty or general practice that are upheld by licensing.

With MA though, what exactly is going to be regulated?

There can be set standards for cleanliness, but that can be assessed by a visit - and even then over here very very few schools have their own dedicated facilities so are dependent on whoever owns that space to keep the floors clean.

Over here also, there are already regs in place for stuff like working with kids, and while there are always going to be cases that slip through the net as it were, the same happens with certified doctors - unless you're going to say that no doctor in X country has ever been guilty of malpractice...

And that's before you get into deciding which styles or techniques are going to be certified.

And the thing about maintaining actual proficiency - just how does anyone go about providing evidence that their brand of self defence is reliable?

In short a comparison to trade skills is a bad one.

A better comparison is to something like a guitar teacher. They can be certified by their musical organisation, or anyone can advertise and teach (while complying with stuff like safeguarding regs). 

What happens if the teacher isn't much good?

Nothing of note. It's a hobby. If it's fun and you get what you want, it's served it's purpose.


I honestly think comparison of an MA teacher to something like a doctor is a massive inflation of the modern importance of MA.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2019)

A doctor and their office environment is/should be a professional setting. How do you describe your MA environment? How do you want others to see it?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> A doctor and their office environment is/should be a professional setting. How do you describe your MA environment? How do you want others to see it?


So is a consulting company's office. Or a print shop.


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2019)

You can be and look professional without needing a certificate.

And, you can have a certificate and look professional and be nothing like it...


I can understand people running a big school liking this sort of idea - there's invariably going to be "guild of master instructor" membership costs which smaller schools just can't absorb and remain anything like competitive.

There's only a limited number of people with any interest in doing MA at all and they're currently shared amongst the many smaller schools - anything like this, especially if it's a legal requirement, is going to destroy the smaller places and only encourage chains. Good for bigger schools, bad for student choice.

Maybe in the states where people apparently like getting lost amongst 2,000 other students and like the idea of a big flashy corporation it could work, especially for those corporations - but the rest of the world probably isn't interested.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2019)

pdg said:


> You can't really compare MA to trade qualifications imo.
> 
> For example an electrician, there is known and proven theory and practice - everyone who knows, knows what works, what's safe and what is bunkum. There's also set standards as to how much of the theoretical and practical knowledge is required to do each type of job.
> 
> ...



Look at the trends. At least in the U.S. people are moving away from gross/generic gyms to more specific exercise venues. The more specific the field the greater need for assurances of proficiency. Teaching is considered a trade so a guitar teacher would fall into the group of professionals being discussed.  A Professional of, whatever. Ninety-nine of MA's are hobbyists. 
Maybe there are enough steps in place to protect a person ignorant of MA's who are looking for a place to workout but I am not aware of any. Some businesses that are poorly operated take care of their own demise. 
One of the highest ranking in our organization opened a school around 2000. He is a lifetime alcoholic who had cleaned up and had even started a prison ministry. The school went ok for a few years then started going into the red. He began making compromises and many of the tell-tale actions of a bad instructor. Things got really bad and I personally know people who lost thousands. The resounding effects were dramatic. From a MA perspective, the greatest effect is that there is only one school in a county that used to had five or six different styles. When the topic of MA comes up it most often circles around to "remember that really bad school …"?)
The point I am trying to make is it lessened the whole MA community in this area greatly. Economics and public opinion were ruined and has yet to recover.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> So again, for about the third time, i am asking you, explain how you envision this to work.  So far you have give very vague non-answers.
> 
> or is this all just a put-on?


Well, I just did. You do not want to think and read into the answers.

No one person can or should have THE answer. It is much too complex. Just like this forum, it will require a group of like minded individuals to banter the specifics.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Because it would
> 
> A: Be taking away our ability to decide what standards we as consumers want (If I want a place that allows for soft training, where I can be a hobbyist who just focuses on myself, but the gov't requires a certain amount of proof that the dojo is doing contact sparring, for instance, I now lost my place of training. If I want a place like the old kenpo or kyokushin places with full-contact bare knuckle sparring, but the gov't feels like there are 'safety concerns' and outlaws that type of practice with their regs, I lost my place of training).
> 
> B: Be taking away from an instructors ability to open up a school/dojo. You would no longer be able to start your school in your backyard/garage/park, and transition when you have enough people. You would have to be putting in time and money from the getgo, which would likely make some people who would open up a school/training group no longer able to do so, and that would be a result based on their finances/ability to put the business on hold, while getting it up to regulations (and I can pretty much guarantee they would not approve "my backyard" as a place for a training group) rather than their ability as instructors.



Again, it would have nothing to do with style specifics. 

A: From your point of view, it would increase free enterprise by creating opportunity for a soft style and a hard style school or classes. 

B: It would never do that. The best example I can come up with off the cuff is layers based on participant levels. 
If you want to open up a school in your back yard, go for it. Just don't promote it as something else. You want to hang out with your friends and work out in you pajamas in your front yard, go for it. 
Free enterprise is one of the best things about most parts of world economics. 

****This is food for thought only!!!! I am very, conservative. I am NOT for big government or intervention. I am for sound business practices and staunchly promote free enterprise. No one person can answer this question. The intent has always been to improve the MA community as a whole. Change (a strong word in this scenario)always takes time to understand and process. 
I ask that each question/challenge be turned on itself and answered in some form by the one asking it. Active participation is the only way to figure out if this would ever have merit. I love the "saying shoot holes in it to see if it still floats". It definitely applies here. If the agenda is to only apply the negatives then nothing productive will ever happen. See the whole picture. If you have a limited perspective due to lesser experience, etc.... acknowledge that. Don't just try to be the loudest voice in the room. Misguided passion and emotion resolve little. 
Input needs come from everywhere.


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2019)

How on earth did people lose thousands to an MA school?

Prepayment schemes or contracted multi month/year programmes through a third party collection agency?

Yeah, almost nowhere here does those...

If the school I go to folds or drops quality and I leave, the most I lose financially is maybe a months fee. But seeing as I've been there long enough to not remember whether I pay in advance or arrears that's a coin toss as to whether I lose or they do.


It appears the US model and trends are totally different to here - for fitness gyms some people like the corporate style and benefits like being able to drop in to any of their premises, but even then it tends to be independent places that subscribe to those schemes.

Also, pay as you go models are gaining popularity over contract schemes for those as well - people in general here just don't want the traditional yearly gym contracts, so opt for rolling monthly deals that you can cancel at any time with no penalties.

And then there's the whole thing of us Brits just not trusting big corporations...


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The intent has always been to improve the MA community as a whole.



That assumes that the community actually needs improvement...


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2019)

pdg said:


> That assumes that the community actually needs improvement...



I'll expand on this a bit.

There's a few people who moan about lack of standards and how MA isn't like it was in the old days.

There's a few people who moan about how a different organisation doesn't put enough value on who gets a black belt - it's very rarely their own org they complain about.

There's a few people who moan that anything taught as self defence doesn't deserve that title because it's "unproven".

There's a few people who complain that xyz style isn't any good because it's not effective in the ring/cage/mat/jungle/viper pit.


For the remaining 99.9999999999% of MA students who aren't vocal and don't use forums - they pretty much don't care.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Requirements could include:
> Proven competency in given skills (SD, competition sparring/forms/breaking, stretching, philosophy, more).
> Health and safety
> Building, workout area standards
> ...





dvcochran said:


> Again, it would have nothing to do with style specifics.




How do you prove competency in a way hat has nothing to do with style specifics? Suppose your proposed theoretical governing board is set up and ten applicants come looking for certification. Each teaches a different art, let's say boxing, BJJ, Bujinkan Taijutsu, Ving Tsun, Capoeira Regional, Yang Style Tai Chi, Systema, Moo Duk Kwon, Renaissance Swordsmanship, and MMA. Who is going to be able evaluate the competency of all these different practitioners? How will they be able to do it in a way that has nothing to do with the specifics of each style? According to the standards of one style, _everything _in another style may be considered incorrect. Heck, even in closely related styles (like two lineages of Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tsun) there may be profound disagreement regarding who is "competent" and what the standards for determining that are.
How would you determine "competency" in _philosophy_?
Some instructors/coaches may not have significant skill in performing an art themselves, but still are able to coach effectively. Some of the greatest boxing coaches of all time never boxed themselves. Would your board disqualify Angelo Dundee from being a boxing coach?
Who gets to set the standards for safety? MMA, Kyokushin Karate, Muay Thai, Dog Brothers gatherings, etc all involve significant risk of injury. In fact there is a good case to be made that there is a unavoidable trade off between safety and developing high levels of genuine fighting skill. (Thus the Dog Brothers motto of "Higher Consciousness Through Harder Contact.") Who gets to decide what is an acceptable level of risk?
What sort of building/workout area standards would you want enforced? I've trained in parks, back yards, garages, living rooms, parking lots, on mats, on hard wood floors, in beautiful studios with air conditioning, in repurposed warehouses, in tiny spaces, in huge spaces, in gyms with heavy bags, weights, boxing rings, and MMA cages, and schools with none of the above. I've never noticed any correlation between the particulars of the workout area and the quality of the instruction. (I suppose I could support a rule mandating that the mats get mopped and disinfected regularly in schools that use mats, but putting a governmental agency in place for that one rule seems like serious overkill.)
Business/advertising/marketing skills are very useful for people who want to run a for-profit commercial school. (Which many instructors don't.) However I don't know of any field where you must get certified as being good at such things before being allowed to start a business.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Well, I just did. You do not want to think and read into the answers.
> 
> No one person can or should have THE answer. It is much too complex. Just like this forum, it will require a group of like minded individuals to banter the specifics.


So lay out an explanation of how you think it might work.  All you’ve really said is, there should be government oversight, it should be mandatory, standards should be regulated, and don’t worry, it will all be fine.

Explain how that is accomplished?  Because I and several others have pointed out a whole bunch of problems.  I don’t see it ever happening, and if it were forced into place it would be nothing but destructive to the practice of martial arts.

So for the fourth time, what is the plan?  How does it work?  Who gets to be a regulator?  What if Ashida Kim or Frank Doux we’re appointed the Chair of the Oversight Department?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> A doctor and their office environment is/should be a professional setting. How do you describe your MA environment? How do you want others to see it?


My back yard and garage, or a park, work just fine.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Again, it would have nothing to do with style specifics.
> 
> A: From your point of view, it would increase free enterprise by creating opportunity for a soft style and a hard style school or classes.
> 
> ...


The thing is you seem to be mixing up with "it should never do that/i would never want it to do that" with "the government would never do that" which is always a risky  mix up to make.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am very, conservative. I am NOT for big government or intervention. I am for sound business practices and staunchly promote free enterprise.


Funnily enough, I’m a (relatively) big-government liberal and I don’t see any way in which governmental regulation of martial arts instruction would be a good idea.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Funnily enough, I’m a (relatively) big-government liberal and I don’t see any way in which governmental regulation of martial arts instruction would be a good idea.


Some things absolutely need regulation.  Other things absolutely should not have it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Funnily enough, I’m a (relatively) big-government liberal and I don’t see any way in which governmental regulation of martial arts instruction would be a good idea.


Agreed. I could see some regulation around after-school programs for kids under a given age, perhaps. And for those of a given size, if there's any regulation for a similar-sized gym (none that I know of, but I could see some equivalency), those might be reasonable. Beyond that, I can't really see the value.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I could see some regulation around after-school programs for kids under a given age, perhaps. And for those of a given size, if there's any regulation for a similar-sized gym (none that I know of, but I could see some equivalency), those might be reasonable. Beyond that, I can't really see the value.


Maybe a day-care license for schools teaching young children.


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## WaterGal (Sep 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe a day-care license for schools teaching young children.


Oh my gosh, no. Nobody would teach kids, then.

We looked at offering an aftercare program, and in order to get a childcare license to run an aftercare program in our state, you have to have, IIRC: a licensed childcare director (which requires a degree in early childhood education), plus one licensed childcare provider per so many children, plus your facility has to be so many square feet (25?) per student, plus you have to have separate child and adult bathrooms, plus you have to have an enclosed outdoor playground with so many square feet of grass or mulch per child (which the students are required to play on for so many hours per day), plus some other things that I can't remember. The requirements were absolutely not something that it would be reasonable to ask a martial arts school to meet.


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## pdg (Sep 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Maybe a day-care license for schools teaching young children.



Depends what you mean by teaching young children.

MA schools here don't do after school clubs, or homework clubs, or collection from school, or child minding... It's an MA club, not a substitute parent.

In fact, it's in the agreement at 'my' school that parents don't just ditch their kids and leave - if they're under about 9 or 10, if the parent leaves the kid goes with them.

Even so, it's expected that the instructors are background checked and have stuff like first aid training - no need to have regulations in place for that as every school I've heard about that teaches kids makes it known they have those things.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Oh my gosh, no. Nobody would teach kids, then.
> 
> We looked at offering an aftercare program, and in order to get a childcare license to run an aftercare program in our state, you have to have, IIRC: a licensed childcare director (which requires a degree in early childhood education), plus one licensed childcare provider per so many children, plus your facility has to be so many square feet (25?) per student, plus you have to have separate child and adult bathrooms, plus you have to have an enclosed outdoor playground with so many square feet of grass or mulch per child (which the students are required to play on for so many hours per day), plus some other things that I can't remember. The requirements were absolutely not something that it would be reasonable to ask a martial arts school to meet.


Yeah, I’m not surprised.  My suggestion wasn’t exactly serious although I can see an argument for it.  But when people start saying something needs regulation, better be careful it doesn’t get regulated in a way they might not like it.  Careful what you wish for.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

pdg said:


> Depends what you mean by teaching young children.
> 
> MA schools here don't do after school clubs, or homework clubs, or collection from school, or child minding... It's an MA club, not a substitute parent.
> 
> ...


I’m sure all of that stuff does happen here, in some places.  I’ve seen places talk about picking up kids from school, having homework time, etc.  that’s why I think there is a valid argument for it, if people want to talk about regulating martial arts.

As @WaterGal pointed out, an actual daycare license brings all kind of regulations and obligations with it; likely martial arts schools don’t want it.  As I say, be careful what you wish for.

By sheer numbers I would say that the majority of commercial schools stay financially afloat through the volume of enrollment of children.  Whether or not they also provide quality instruction for adults, or if they are strictly Karotty daycare depends on the school.  If they all suddenly needed a daycare license, most of all of those schools would close down.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Oh my gosh, no. Nobody would teach kids, then.
> 
> We looked at offering an aftercare program, and in order to get a childcare license to run an aftercare program in our state, you have to have, IIRC: a licensed childcare director (which requires a degree in early childhood education), plus one licensed childcare provider per so many children, plus your facility has to be so many square feet (25?) per student, plus you have to have separate child and adult bathrooms, plus you have to have an enclosed outdoor playground with so many square feet of grass or mulch per child (which the students are required to play on for so many hours per day), plus some other things that I can't remember. The requirements were absolutely not something that it would be reasonable to ask a martial arts school to meet.


It sounds like you are describing requirements to run a full time daycare. Not a supplemental program. I am sure it varies from state to state.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> So lay out an explanation of how you think it might work.  All you’ve really said is, there should be government oversight, it should be mandatory, standards should be regulated, and don’t worry, it will all be fine.
> 
> Explain how that is accomplished?  Because I and several others have pointed out a whole bunch of problems.  I don’t see it ever happening, and if it were forced into place it would be nothing but destructive to the practice of martial arts.
> 
> So for the fourth time, what is the plan?  How does it work?  Who gets to be a regulator?  What if Ashida Kim or Frank Doux we’re appointed the Chair of the Oversight Department?



Again (and again)* I* cannot nor should not answer your question. It is too big for one person. Asking the same redundant question accomplishes nothing. I have heard similar questions in different venues that eventually did adopt some level of regulated standards (such as daycare that has been mentioned). It would take a collective that clearly does not exist here on this forum. That is ok. @Tony Dismukes has had the most cogent response. At least he is thinking about it. It is never wrong to come down on the other side of an issue if it is done with intelligence. 
I cannot imagine it ever being the people who are extreme specialist in their MA craft. They are serving a different, very valuable purpose.  I assume the people you listed are Not.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 4, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Again (and again)* I* cannot nor should not answer your question. It is too big for one person. Asking the same redundant question accomplishes nothing. I have heard similar questions in different venues that eventually did adopt some level of regulated standards (such as daycare that has been mentioned). It would take a collective that clearly does not exist here on this forum. That is ok. @Tony Dismukes has had the most cogent response. At least he is thinking about it. It is never wrong to come down on the other side of an issue if it is done with intelligence.
> I cannot imagine it ever being the people who are extreme specialist in their MA craft. They are serving a different, very valuable purpose.  I assume the people you listed are Not.


Ok well, when you start saying it is needed, then it seems you would have at least an idea of how it might be done.  If you don’t have that, it’s hard to argue that it is needed.


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## Buka (Sep 5, 2019)




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## dvcochran (Sep 5, 2019)

If that is who I think it is on the near left, he was right.


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## WaterGal (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It sounds like you are describing requirements to run a full time daycare. Not a supplemental program. I am sure it varies from state to state.



Flying Crane suggested that martial arts schools be required to get childcare licenses. Where I'm at, there isn't a "supplemental" childcare license; an aftercare program is supposed to be licensed the same as a full-time daycare center. Lots of places don't actually do that and run illegal aftercare programs and just hope they don't get reported, but they're risking large fines and potentially even prison time by doing that. I wasn't comfortable with that risk, personally.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Flying Crane suggested that martial arts schools be required to get childcare licenses. Where I'm at, there isn't a "supplemental" childcare license; an aftercare program is supposed to be licensed the same as a full-time daycare center. Lots of places don't actually do that and run illegal aftercare programs and just hope they don't get reported, but they're risking large fines and potentially even prison time by doing that. I wasn't comfortable with that risk, personally.


Supplemental program vary greatly. An example is an after school program for a specific school subject for grade school kids.


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## pdg (Sep 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Supplemental program vary greatly. An example is an after school program for a specific school subject for grade school kids.



To me, that sort of supplemental programme is outside the remit of a martial arts school.

It almost becomes an MA themed daycare centre.

Then it becomes difficult to determine which activity is the supplemental activity - is it the daycare aspect, or is it the adult classes? Is it an MA school that happens to do an after school club, or is it a daycare centre that wants to have something to get the parents more involved?

In those cases I can see why a certification system for the real classes could possibly be considered useful. Maybe.

I've looked (admittedly briefly) and I can't find a single MA place over here that follows that business model.

Childcare is so heavily regulated, and the subject matter is part of the education curriculum, that it really wouldn't be viable - you could maybe get in a bit of MA themed exercise during a 15 minute break, but then it would raise the question of whether that's actually MA at all. Imo, no.


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## dvcochran (Sep 7, 2019)

pdg said:


> To me, that sort of supplemental programme is outside the remit of a martial arts school.
> 
> It almost becomes an MA themed daycare centre.
> 
> ...


It is a not an uncommon model here. Sometimes times I think there needs to be a new name for the MA training kids get at these programs or whether it should be called MA at all. As long as it gets the kids moving and is some form of exercise it is not a bad thing.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> It is a not an uncommon model here. Sometimes times I think there needs to be a new name for the MA training kids get at these programs or whether it should be called MA at all. As long as it gets the kids moving and is some form of exercise it is not a bad thing.


I always just add a little asterisk in my head when someone says they trained TKD/Karate "for a few years as a kid". Most of the time if I ask anything further, I find out they stopped around 10. Which is fine, but a bit misleading to say you "trained" in anything from 8-10 years old. I don't claim that I "trained" in baseball because I played little league.


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## skribs (Sep 11, 2019)

pdg said:


> Depends what you mean by teaching young children.
> 
> MA schools here don't do after school clubs, or homework clubs, or collection from school, or child minding... It's an MA club, not a substitute parent.
> 
> ...



It's not a requirement at my school.  There's usually enough parents there that there's witnesses to anything going on, we have big windows so everything in the school is publicly visible, and usually the Master and his wife are both present so there are both male and female adults present.

I used to open on Saturdays, and every once in a while the first parent would ask if they could drop off their kid, and I'd ask they at least stay until another parent arrives.  (There were a couple times the parents just did a drive-by drop-off and it made me really uncomfortable).

We also do what I call reverse-bouncing.  We keep the kids inside the establishment.  If they can't see their parents in the parking lot, we don't even let them outside to look.  The parent can come in and get them.  Every once in a while the parent will yell at them (something like "I told you I'd be outside") and then I'll let the parent know that we ask them to stay inside if they can't point their parent out to us from the door.


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## skribs (Sep 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I always just add a little asterisk in my head when someone says they trained TKD/Karate "for a few years as a kid". Most of the time if I ask anything further, I find out they stopped around 10. Which is fine, but a bit misleading to say you "trained" in anything from 8-10 years old. I don't claim that I "trained" in baseball because I played little league.



Almost everyone at my school who trained as a kid and then came back as an adult, it's been like riding a bike.

I trained wrestling for 3 years in middle school.  I sucked then, but I can apply the techniques today (even though I haven't wrestled in 18 years).  I played baseball in middle school.  I also sucked then.  But having not practiced in over a decade, I can throw, catch, and bat (and do all of those better than I did in middle school).

Someone training for a few years as a kid absolutely is developing skills they can use.  If they go back and practice and apply those skills, anyway.


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## skribs (Sep 11, 2019)

pdg said:


> To me, that sort of supplemental programme is outside the remit of a martial arts school.
> 
> It almost becomes an MA themed daycare centre.
> 
> ...



I think the Daycare aspect is less that you're providing daycare, and more that you're taking kids in for a program.  Adults are legally responsible for themselves, but kids are not.  When parents leave their kids with someone else, that other person has to be responsible for their kids.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 11, 2019)

skribs said:


> Almost everyone at my school who trained as a kid and then came back as an adult, it's been like riding a bike.
> 
> I trained wrestling for 3 years in middle school.  I sucked then, but I can apply the techniques today (even though I haven't wrestled in 18 years).  I played baseball in middle school.  I also sucked then.  But having not practiced in over a decade, I can throw, catch, and bat (and do all of those better than I did in middle school).
> 
> Someone training for a few years as a kid absolutely is developing skills they can use.  If they go back and practice and apply those skills, anyway.


But its still different than training in it. There is a hige difference between someone playing baseball in elementary school vs someone doing the same in high school or college.


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## skribs (Sep 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> But its still different than training in it. There is a hige difference between someone playing baseball in elementary school vs someone doing the same in high school or college.



Technically true, but I don't really see the point of this distinction.  So what if it was a different time in their life?  Training martial arts is different at 30 than at 15, different at 65 than at 45.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 11, 2019)

skribs said:


> Technically true, but I don't really see the point of this distinction.  So what if it was a different time in their life?  Training martial arts is different at 30 than at 15, different at 65 than at 45.


Yep. And training as a kid is very different than training as an adult, or even a teenager. Hence the asterisk.

I also put an asterisk when i tell people how long I've trained...technically I've been training for two decades. If i really wanted to push it i could claim i trained over two decades (i started when i was 4 i think, and turned 26 yesterday, so at least 21 years). But people should be aware that one decade of that i wasnt even a teenager, so wach person can decide how much weight they put to my two decades.


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## skribs (Sep 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Yep. And training as a kid is very different than training as an adult, or even a teenager. Hence the asterisk.
> 
> I also put an asterisk when i tell people how long I've trained...technically I've been training for two decades. If i really wanted to push it i could claim i trained over two decades (i started when i was 4 i think, and turned 26 yesterday, so at least 21 years). But people should be aware that one decade of that i wasnt even a teenager, so wach person can decide how much weight they put to my two decades.


.
You're way overcomplicating it.  Training is training.  Someone training at a young age will learn a lot of the stuff faster than an adult.  Someone learning as an adult will learn from a higher conceptual level, but it will take longer to actually learn how to do things.  Teenagers fall somewhat into both categories, but have the arrogance of adolescence get in their way.  Every age  has it's asterisk.  It's simpler to let those asterisks cancel each other out.

You started training when you were young enough that it was something you grew up with.  It is so ingrained into your life that you probably can't remember a time before martial arts.  It is a part of you, and always has been.  There's no need for an asterisk.  It's time trained.


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## WaterGal (Sep 11, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Supplemental program vary greatly. An example is an after school program for a specific school subject for grade school kids.



I think what you're talking about would be called an afterschool activity or afterschool enrichment program where I live. That doesn't require any kind of certification whatsoever.

Aftercare/childcare programs are distinct from afterschool activities, in that the program takes on legal responsibility for taking care of the child. They also generally either supervise the children in their elementary school, or they pick the child up from school and transport them to a facility somewhere else. 

Contrast that with an after school activity such as Little League or most martial arts classes, where the parent typically brings the child to the place of instruction, remains nearby, and maintains legal responsibility for their wellbeing of their child.


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## skribs (Sep 11, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> I think what you're talking about would be called an afterschool activity or afterschool enrichment program where I live. That doesn't require any kind of certification whatsoever.
> 
> Aftercare/childcare programs are distinct from afterschool activities, in that the program takes on legal responsibility for taking care of the child. They also generally either supervise the children in their elementary school, or they pick the child up from school and transport them to a facility somewhere else.
> 
> Contrast that with an after school activity such as Little League or most martial arts classes, where the parent typically brings the child to the place of instruction, remains nearby, and maintains legal responsibility for their wellbeing of their child.



What about something where the parents bring the kids, but don't necessarily stay?

Although no daycare I know of ever had a shuttle service.


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## JR 137 (Sep 12, 2019)

skribs said:


> What about something where the parents bring the kids, but don't necessarily stay?
> 
> Although no daycare I know of ever had a shuttle service.


Plenty of commercial daycare places around me have shuttle services. They’ll pick kids up from school. Some school districts will drop kids off to licensed daycare facilities via school bus after school. My wife’s friend runs a licensed daycare out of her house; 3 different schools districts bus kids there after school.


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## WaterGal (Sep 13, 2019)

skribs said:


> What about something where the parents bring the kids, but don't necessarily stay?



That's where the law can get a little complicated and subjective. Basically, are you presenting it as a class or as daycare? Are the kids doing martial arts (or dance, gymnastics, whatever) the whole time, or are they hanging out and playing with toys and stuff? Are they there for an hour? Two? Three? If you call the parents will they immediately come get their kid, are you expected to handle injuries, medical stuff, upset kids, etc? 



> Although no daycare I know of ever had a shuttle service.


How do they pick the school-aged kids up from school without a shuttle bus?


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## skribs (Sep 13, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> That's where the law can get a little complicated and subjective. Basically, are you presenting it as a class or as daycare? Are the kids doing martial arts (or dance, gymnastics, whatever) the whole time, or are they hanging out and playing with toys and stuff? Are they there for an hour? Two? Three? If you call the parents will they immediately come get their kid, are you expected to handle injuries, medical stuff, upset kids, etc?
> 
> 
> How do they pick the school-aged kids up from school without a shuttle bus?



I think most of the daycares I've seen have been more of the pre-K variety.

There are school buses, but those are provided by the city, not by the daycare service.


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## JR 137 (Sep 13, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think most of the daycares I've seen have been more of the pre-K variety.
> 
> There are school buses, but those are provided by the city, not by the daycare service.


Most of the daycares around me are infant-preschool age. They have after school care for elementary school children. Most of the kids getting bussed to the daycare places after school have siblings who are in daycare full time.

School districts will only bus kids who are enrolled in the school or school aged and living in the district (some districts will bus kids to private schools). 

The local glorified daycare McDojo has a van that picks up kids from school. I don’t hate them for their daycare aspect; it’s their Tae Kwon Do that really sucks. “Take My Dough” is far more accurate of a name than Tae Kwon Do when it comes to that place.


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