# Two Bassais, Dai and Sho



## tsdclaflin (Feb 18, 2005)

Out of curiosity, how many schools still teach both Bassai forms? For those that do, what rank do you learn Bassai Sho?

My original school (where I earned by black belt) taught both: I learned Bassai Sho first at 3rd gup, then Bassai Dai at 2nd gup and Nianchi Cho Dan at 1st gup.

Bassai sho was more difficult to learn for me, but I like it much better than Dai.


----------



## Makalakumu (Feb 21, 2005)

tsdclaflin said:
			
		

> Out of curiosity, how many schools still teach both Bassai forms? For those that do, what rank do you learn Bassai Sho?
> 
> My original school (where I earned by black belt) taught both: I learned Bassai Sho first at 3rd gup, then Bassai Dai at 2nd gup and Nianchi Cho Dan at 1st gup.
> 
> Bassai sho was more difficult to learn for me, but I like it much better than Dai.



Our school teaches both of those forms.  We learn them at Red Belt.  Bassai Sho is a long form.  It is harder to learn then Dai.  I don't understand why we don't teach Dai first.


----------



## Yossarian75 (Feb 23, 2005)

My school teaches Bassai Dai only. Ive only ever seen the Shotokan version of Sho, I would like to learn this form just for fun. We learn Bassai Dai at Second gup, Naihanchi cho dan first gup and Sip Soo cho dan bo.


----------



## karatekid1975 (Feb 23, 2005)

My old TSD dojang taught both. I don't remember at what rank. I think both where at red (2nd and 1st gup).... not sure though (to lazy to look old associations website hehehehe).


----------



## ppko (Feb 24, 2005)

You missid one Bassai and that is Tamari Bassai, the original Bassai kata.


----------



## RRouuselot (Feb 24, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> You missid one Bassai and that is Tamari Bassai, the original Bassai kata.


   Why would you say T_*a*_mari (actually it's T_*o*_mari) is the original Passai?

   There are several versions of Passai/Bassai

   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Passai Dai

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Passai

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Passai Sho

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Passai Cu

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Tawata no Passai

   6)[font=&quot]      [/font]Motobu Passai 

   And probably several more


----------



## ppko (Feb 24, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Why would you say T_*a*_mari (actually it's T_*o*_mari) is the original Passai?
> 
> There are several versions of Passai/Bassai
> 
> ...


I didn't know that there was that many, thank you.  To answer your question that is just what I was told a long time ago that Tomari Bassai meant old Bassai or original, if not than what does it mean.


----------



## Yossarian75 (Feb 24, 2005)

> You missid one Bassai and that is Tamari Bassai, the original Bassai kata.
> Yesterday



Not really as Tomari Bassai was never(to my knowlage) practiced in TSD. TSD forms are (believed to be)variations of the Japanese(Shotokan) versions. It seems that Bassai Sho used to be practiced more in the past and a lot of schools have dropped it now. 

Ive noticed that Bassai Sho has some of the same moves as Bassai Dai and Sip Soo(Jitte), perhaps this is why it has been dropped. Ive heard there are over twenty distinct versions of Bassai Dai itself and that its one of the most popular forms practiced in MA.

RRouuselot
Never heard of Passai Cu, whats this one like?


----------



## RRouuselot (Feb 24, 2005)

Yossarian75 said:
			
		

> RRouuselot
> Never heard of Passai Cu, whats this one like?


 It has a lot of the same moves as Dai and Sho. Nothing very exotic.


----------



## Makalakumu (Feb 24, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Why would you say T_*a*_mari (actually it's T_*o*_mari) is the original Passai?
> 
> There are several versions of Passai/Bassai
> 
> ...



I have never heard of these forms.  I wish that I could see them demonstrated.  Do they all show snake characteristics?


----------



## ppko (Feb 24, 2005)

here is some information on bassai don't know how accurate it is though
http://www.stamfordisshinryu.com/id102.htm
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bassai probably means something like "Extract from a Fortress." In short, "Rescue." The first character can be read as nuki or batsu, depending on the combination and the natural way of using them already intuited by native speakers. It means "to extract" or "to draw out." The second character can be read fusagu or sai which means "close, shut, obstruct, or get in the way of." There are many meanings that could possibly be drawn from this character combination.[/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The name "Bassai" can be written with six different characters, and no Japanese karate instructor is really sure which of the kanji are the originals. The ones I picked above seem to be repeated in Funakoshi's Ryukyu Karate Kenpo (1922). One such reading gives the meaning of "extract from a fortress." Another means "remove an obstruction." The common English translation is "To Penetrate a Fortress," however, there does not seem to be a kanji for penetrate among the many that are used in the name of this kata. What caused so many publishers of karate books to put the name "To Penetrate a Fortress" out there is a mystery.[/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*Best Karate Volume 6 *by Nakayama Masatoshi (English edition) and *Karatedo Kyohan* by Funakoshi/Oshima (English edition) both present the "Penetrate a Fortress" translation of Bassai. [/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*Dai and Sho Kata*[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]The last character, Dai, means "large." The three "Dai" kata in Shotokai are Kanku Dai, Gojushiho Dai, and Bassai Dai, and each is apparently given that name to distinguish it from a different version of the same kata that has been brought into the Shotokai system. The Dai kata are the "large" kata, hence the character for "big" being tagged onto the name. The other kata in these pairs are the "Sho" kata or the "small" kata.[/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*From Tomari or China?*[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bassai Dai is a very old kata, and there are many different versions of it. While some credit its creation to Matsumura Sokon, in reality no one knows for sure if the kata was created by him or not. We don't really know where all of these Bassai kata came from, nor do we know who created the first one. We don't know how old the kata is, nor do we know if it was born in China or in Okinawa. [/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bassai Dai is thought to come from Tomari, however, this is based upon tertiary evidence and is probably not possible to prove today. There are other versions of the kata which have names which refer to the city of Tomari such as Oyadomari Bassai, which means "Bassai Parented in Tomari." Some claim that this name refers to a man named Oyadomari. There is also a Tomari Bassai. Like the other Shotokai kata thought to have been parented in Tomari, such as Jutte, Jion, Jiin and Empi, Bassai begins with the right fist covered by the left hand. This movement is apparently peculiar to some of the kata in Shotokai which seem to come from Tomari City. This gesture may come from China as a sign of respect, or it could simply be a way of performing kata that the person who gathered these particular kata together enjoyed. Maybe an Okinawan karate expert always started his kata in this position, and we retain the movement today. We really cannot be sure about the history of karate kata.[/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*Version, Version, What's the Version?*[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There are many different versions of Bassai Dai such as Matsumura Bassai, Tomari Bassai, Oyadomari Bassai, Koryu Bassai. All of these different versions are similar in their basic shape, but none of them are identical to each other. The common theme between these different versions of Bassai seems to be the large number of blocking motions at the beginning of the kata, followed by several sword hand blocks and a low level side thrust kick. The differences lie in the kinds of blocks and the body motions made during the blocking maneuvers. One version has the sword hand blocks executed to the lower level. Many of the versions perfer the cat leg stance over the back stance, but this is not surprising considering that the back stance seems to have been brought into Shotokai in the 1930's. [/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*Applying Bassai Dai*[/font]
[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Bassai Dai, more than any other kata, leads one to think about alternative applications for the techniques beyond those given in most karate books. The techniques simply make no sense at all given the Shotokai combat style based on aggressive attacking punches, kicks, and footsweeps. Block, block, block, and block some more. Why would anyone do that? The answer, of course, is that no one would do that, therefore that is not what is being done. There must be more to this kata than simple blocks. Once you have reached that con-clusion, you begin traveling down the road of finding advanced applications in all of the kata. [/font]


[font=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]There are many interesting applications of the kata Bassai Dai. Of course, the most obvious applications involve blocking and countering a large number of kicks and punches from opponents surrounding the performer. Actually, the kata contains even more interesting applications among the group of blocks that have no counter attacks built into them. The blocks can be interpreted as a series of throws and sweeps combined with wrist locks and arm bars to form a a deadly array of techniques thrown against much fewer attacks and attackers than the simplistic interpretation would allow. Reverse engineering of kata like Bassai Dai requires great knowledge of karate techniques, and it also requires a rather extensive knowledge of jujutsu techniques so that the throws, locks, and other un-shotokai-like techniques will become apparent through careful analysis.[/font]


----------



## Makalakumu (Feb 24, 2005)

In Hwang Kee's book Volume One, Bassai is said to have the characteristics of the snake.  Most of the above is new to me...


----------



## RRouuselot (Feb 24, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> In Hwang Kee's book Volume One, *Bassai is said to have the characteristics of the snake*.  Most of the above is new to me...


 I think that is due to the hand positions.


----------



## TSDMDK16485 (Feb 24, 2005)

hi!! i'm a cho-dan with the tradidtional tang soo do moo duk kwan org. and we teach bassai so at 3rd gup and bassai dae at 2nd gup along with the chil sung hyungs...


----------



## thepanjr (Apr 16, 2005)

Si far i am learning bassia dai at green belt level. Im lucky that you guys learned it at balck belt. I had to learn it at green. That a load of information on bassai dai.


----------



## tsdclaflin (Apr 16, 2005)

Actually, we learned Bassai Sho at 3rd gup and bassai dai at 2nd gup.

What gup level is your green belt?


----------



## searcher (Apr 16, 2005)

If you want more info on the different versions of the Passai kata you should look up the Okinawan karate styles that teach them.   Shito-ryu has several different versions of the Passai and they teach them at different levels.  Some of the TSD Hyungs bear a very close embusen to the forms practised in my style.    If you check your Pyung-ahns against the Pinans of Matsubayashi-ryu you will see that they are almost identical.    To get at the origins of the TSD forms go to the source of their origin, Okinawa.


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 16, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> To get at the origins of the TSD forms go to the source of their origin, Okinawa.



The more I practice this system, the more I realize that this is the truth.  My teacher did the same and so did my teacher's teacher.  I may now be on that same path...


----------



## Pale Rider (May 4, 2005)

I hear so many people talk about Bassai Dai or So - but how many Tang Soo Do Martial Artists actually practice Pal Che?


----------



## TallAdam85 (May 4, 2005)

my school just does one bassai and thats good enoff for me lol 

 i am not big in to forms


----------



## Pale Rider (May 5, 2005)

Trying learning this form:
&#25300;&#26612;


----------

