# Insertion points!



## Brian R. VanCise (May 19, 2007)

Okay when practicing your particular style of knife work what are some of the main insertion points you are looking at when thrusting.  An example might be that your style focuses on: Insertions in the neck, under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle to the heart, Armpit, Inner Thigh femoral artery insertion, etc.  In IRT we cover the above and more but I was interested on other systems take on where they are inserting/thrusting.

Also if you want to how do you get there?

In IRT we utilize multiple ways of getting there from a straight direct line, indirect line, etc.  Typically we are utilizing some form of traping hands with angles and movement to get to the desired place. 

Of course none of the above would be used unless the encounter justified lethal force. (at least in IRT)


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## tellner (May 19, 2007)

I'm not really comfortable going into detail about the offensive use of the knife in a public forum. Suffice it to say there are many targets, and Silat offers a number of ways to get to them.


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## arnisador (May 19, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle



These are common in Modern Arnis, which didn't emphasize the anatomy of knife targets the way that knife-focused arts like Sayoc Kali do.


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## arnisador (May 19, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle



These are common in Modern Arnis, which didn't emphasize the anatomy of knife targets the way that knife-focused arts like Sayoc Kali do. Part of that was the heavy emphasis on defang the snake, i.e., working in from arm cuts--we tended to focus on that a lot.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 19, 2007)

tellner said:


> I'm not really comfortable going into detail about the offensive use of the knife in a public forum. Suffice it to say there are many targets, and Silat offers a number of ways to get to them.


 
Okay tellner if you are not comfortable on going into detail about the offensive use then how about the defensive use and how your system of silat moves to the right spot and method that you use.


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## Bill Bednarick (May 19, 2007)

I break blade targeting into the following.

Blood targets, Skeletal targets, connective targets, and nerve targets.

I do include wind targets in empty hand targeting but it not as easily defined in blade stuff.

Blood targets make the pipes leak.
Skeletal targets add handles where there were none.
Connective targets make things fall apart under pressure.
Nerve targets blow fuses making the lights go out.

Personally I don't think there is too much about blade targeting that can't be learned from Grey's Anatomy or other medical text.

As to how you get there?
I'm still working that out. 

Mostly I just use the same stuff I do with empty hands.
Saves time and speeds things up for me.
I do study what other folks do and see one thing that separates what I consider good blade from not so good blade.
And that is mindset.


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## tellner (May 20, 2007)

There are all the usual targets: the blood vessels from the facial carotid (slashing) to the Great Vessels (stabbing), the tendons, cuts to the fascia (sort of like filleting the arm), and so on. Pretty much the same ones that everyone uses. Without getting into too much detail, the movements of the juru juru translate just about perfectly to the knife. Both forward and reverse grips are used, but we don't tend to switch things around much unless using the "mobile" lanyard. Insertion depends entirely on grip, target and relation to the opponents. There's a lot of emphasis on getting strong control of the attacker as quickly as possible - none of this tapping around at the middle distance. In close or far away. Otherwise you're dead.


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## SFC JeffJ (May 20, 2007)

The training I've had emphasized abdominal thrusts, and keeping the blade moving once you got it in there.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 20, 2007)

That is definately effective Jeff and with the upward angle it will be lethal with a decent sized knife.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 20, 2007)

I knew this thread is edgy/touchy so if you have something you want to say but are not comfortable then just pm me the info.

Still I think we can have some good conversation about what we are comfortable with.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 20, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> I break blade targeting into the following.
> 
> Blood targets, Skeletal targets, connective targets, and nerve targets.
> 
> ...


 
Great post Bill! 

Mindset is really, really, really important as we all know that this is nasty kind of work.  I would ditto Grey's Anatomy as a great medical book to have and do research with. (no not the show)  My copy is sitting right behind me at the moment.


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## KenpoTex (May 20, 2007)

Unlike all you cool guys, I've never had the opportunity to study any FMA's or knife systems other than what I've picked up from a seminar or two and some DVD's (there is NO ONE in my area that teaches any of this type of stuff ).  
As a result, my "knife-style" could best be described as _"dirty prison-style shanking mixed with a little Applegate/Fairbairn, mixed with a little SouthNarc"_ 

I primarily train to hit the throat/neck region, the abdomen basically from the bottom of the rib-cage to the belt-line, the kidneys, and the groin.  To get to those targets, I'll cut, stab, or rip anything in the way.


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## Steel Tiger (May 20, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Okay when practicing your particular style of knife work what are some of the main insertion points you are looking at when thrusting. An example might be that your style focuses on: Insertions in the neck, under the ribs, abdomen on an upward angle to the heart, Armpit, Inner Thigh femoral artery insertion, etc. In IRT we cover the above and more but I was interested on other systems take on where they are inserting/thrusting.
> 
> Also if you want to how do you get there?
> 
> ...


 
We have all these in the knife work that I have learned and teach.  There one that is something of a favourite of mine not on the above list.  It is an insertion into the body cavity via a downward thrust just behind the collar bone and inside the shoulder joint.  To attain the right position for this strike requires a number of preliminary or positioning slashes along the chosen arm, usually at the wrist, up the forearm and through the elbow joint (these lat two are usually a single stroke).


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## OUMoose (May 20, 2007)

As far as thrusts, I think the armpit, groin, abdomen from the front, and lungs from the rear/side would be ideal.

As far as getting there, well.... you gotta figure that part out. 

I couldn't really see a "defensive" application of a thrust, since it's a much more aggressive action than a slash.  Also, it seems to me that the prime targets are in the core, which in an evasive situation wouldn't generally be as open as slashes/cuts to the appendages.  

Just my opinion, though.


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## Trent (May 24, 2007)

Any knife instruction will have to be done personally even on a theoretical level.  We keep that information very close to the vest as it is far too easy to abuse, and particularly by those who express the greatest interest or need.

However, the method of moving, and defending, the knife in 4-dimensional space is inherent in the jurus and langkahs of the system with the appropriate timing, rhythym, angling, positioning and other considerations.  I will say that most of our knife work is either "out of range" or "nose to nose" and includes the fleeting moments of range crossing being handled as quickly as possible for extreme close range utilization.


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## Bill Bednarick (May 25, 2007)

Trent,

Wouldn't it be possible to learn quite a bit of the Kuntao Silat theory from the heartless monkey dvds?

Obviously there is application that needs to be learned and refined with a Kuntao Silat teacher.

But it was my understanding those dvds and the others are for distance learning students.

I understand your position, as I do tellners.

But his teacher doesn't have dvds that are blade specific.


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## hyooge_2000 (May 31, 2007)

Gotta go with the silat guys on this one. In terms of insertion points as well as body mechanics of yourself and the victim, I think the djurus have plenty to offer anyone thinking of using a knife in any art especially getting up close and personal. this, of course, is not to say that silat is superior to any other art, just that it would compliment just about anyone in terms of understanding structure.


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## mrhnau (May 31, 2007)

Insert into the soft and mushy. Avoid the hard and crunchy.


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## kempo-vjj (May 31, 2007)

another problem in that I have is the difference between silat and phillipino knife work. The Silat seems simpler to me, and an easier base to learn from, since I'm new to it. The Phillipino is a little flashier to me. We work our jurus and then work applications from it. We also have base sets that we do that are not from the jurus.


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## kaizasosei (May 31, 2007)

i have heard that pentjak silat means 'beautiful movements'.
?- i can appreciate the low stances and various forms from the little i know...


j


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## Trent (May 31, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Trent,
> 
> Wouldn't it be possible to learn quite a bit of the Kuntao Silat theory from the heartless monkey dvds?
> 
> ...



Fair deserving of a forthright answer:

A person would be able to get an idea of some of what Kun Tao Silat does from the Heartless Monkey DVDs, and that is why they were released; however it isn't close to "quite a bit" of what we do.  While there is surely a little bit of meat on those DVDs, it's merely a small portion of the whole beast.

It must be considered that those were the first videotapes/DVDs that showed anything we do, and they were released with that in mind to show why what we do is different than everything else out there; therefore, only certain things were shown-- some of the training, some of the applications, a bit of the lore.  I must admit, a smart person would be far better off with those DVDs than if they didn't know anything of our system at all, but if they thought they would now be a Kun Tao Silat knife expert, or even what we would consider "competent" with a blade, they would be sadly mistaken.

The "distance learning" program is a way to get some information that couldn't ordinarily be obtained without a teacher.  Ultimately, however, a teacher is necessary, and much face-to-face for the next levels of training if they are serious about learning.

I learned about KTS through the release of the first Heartless Monkey videotape in 1999, but in 2000, I started making trips to Denver for a week at a time, several times a year, for personal instruction.


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 1, 2007)

Trent said:


> Fair deserving of a forthright answer:
> 
> A person would be able to get an idea of some of what Kun Tao Silat does from the Heartless Monkey DVDs, and that is why they were released; however it isn't close to "quite a bit" of what we do.  While there is surely a little bit of meat on those DVDs, it's merely a small portion of the whole beast.
> 
> ...



I was merely pointing out the fact some of the KTS info is out in dvd.
Not that it would lead to a level of competency by simply viewing it.

You're not first person to say you prefer to keep some stuff secret, but I personally don't feel that the best way to keep a secret is to tell people there is a secret.

Do you understand what I'm getting at?

Kind of like the idea behind "the first rule of fight club is we don't talk about fight club".


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## MarkBarlow (Jun 2, 2007)

My Jujutsu sensei taught tantojutsu in conjunction with empty-hand techniques.  The primary targets are similar to what has been discussed here earlier.  We break them down into cripplers, bleeders and killers.  The types of attacks are thrust, slash and rip. 

To be honest, we keep it very, very simple and there is no way I would put my knowledge of blade arts against most of y'all.  We basically teach knife fighting for non-knife fighters.  We require yudansha in Akayama Ryu to have a basic understanding of at least one weapon and most students pick the knife.  Again, I stress "basic".  On the other hand, it works.  We've had more than one student have to defend themselves with it and they came back with the same number of limbs the left with.


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## tellner (Jun 2, 2007)

My only reservation about the tantojutsu I've seen is that it seems to assume that the other guy is wearing armor. The strikes are very powerful. this is important if you have to punch through bamboo, lacquer and steel. It's not necessary and may slow you down if the other guy is wearing light or no protection.


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## arnisador (Jun 3, 2007)

tellner said:


> My only reservation about the tantojutsu I've seen is that it seems to assume that the other guy is wearing armor. The strikes are very powerful. this is important if you have to punch through bamboo, lacquer and steel. It's not necessary and may slow you down if the other guy is wearing light or no protection.



This is a great point. Most arts are well-suited to their environments. But an art developed for the knife vs. bamboo armor, as with the JMA, and an art developed for a tropical climate where people wear little clothing, like the FMA, are each not perfectly suited for knife use in, say, a modern, cold climate like Anchorage, Alaska where people will wear thick winter jackets that defy weak slashes but don't need as hard a thrust as the armor would.

Whenever people who are contemplating studying the arts ask me what the best martial art is I always must ask them, What kind of opponent will you be facing?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 3, 2007)

Excellent point's made by all.  Having had experience with Japanese systems as well that used the blade very effectively (aka Budo Taijutsu) I would caution anyone to not appreciate what there is to be offered out there.  There is quite a bit more out there than just putting a tanto through armor if you look around.


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## Blindside (Jun 3, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This is a great point. Most arts are well-suited to their environments. But an art developed for the knife vs. bamboo armor, as with the JMA, and an art developed for a tropical climate where people wear little clothing, like the FMA, are each not perfectly suited for knife use in, say, a modern, cold climate like Anchorage, Alaska where people will wear thick winter jackets that defy weak slashes but don't need as hard a thrust as the armor would.
> 
> Whenever people who are contemplating studying the arts ask me what the best martial art is I always must ask them, What kind of opponent will you be facing?


 
Japanese armor isn't bamboo.  Depending on the era and type it either scale/lamellar, mail, or plate, or all three.  Bamboo armor is for bamboo swords ala kendo.  

And lets not forget that some Filipino's wore armor as well.

Lamont


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## graywolf (Jun 3, 2007)

Sayoc..3 of 9..4 of 12..Transition drill#1..Cordially,Howard


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 3, 2007)

Coming from a FMA approach I assume the dirty rotten Conquistadors are always wearing armor.

And so are terrorists, mad dog active shooters, gangbangers, and the like.

I'd much rather train a set of targets that ALWAYS work regardless of attackers mode of dress and fashion accessories.

I don't care how much of a badass you think you are, you will not be stabbing thru a vest full of AK mags.

I also assume all slashes by me were effective only in clearing lines and passing, that defanging the snake made the attackers arm a club instead of a flipper and hitting the other person with the ground is a wonderful thing.

All of which work as well when armor is assumed as when it is assumed to be nonexistent.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 4, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Coming from a FMA approach I assume the dirty rotten Conquistadors are always wearing armor.
> 
> And so are terrorists, mad dog active shooters, gangbangers, and the like.
> 
> ...


 

Excellent post Bill and a good rationale way to approach violent encounter.  Modern clothes, body armor, etc. have to be accounted for in our current training to make what we do have meaning and purpose in our environment.


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 4, 2007)

Thanks Brian,

Too often people become hyper-focused on their "style" without any critical examination of the "style".

Don't concern yourself solely with the fact that they did it like this 500 years ago in some place you've never been to. 
Concern yourself as to WHY they did it in that place and what it could mean to you in this place now.

A great example is the hundreds of Silat styles, and the thing that is the most notable factor in each ones development.

Environment.

Failure to adapt to your environment is failure to thrive in that environment.

It is the same everywhere.


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## Blindside (Jun 4, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Coming from a FMA approach I assume the dirty rotten Conquistadors are always wearing armor.
> 
> And so are terrorists, mad dog active shooters, gangbangers, and the like.
> 
> I'd much rather train a set of targets that ALWAYS work regardless of attackers mode of dress and fashion accessories.


 
Coming from a Pekiti perspective the three major thrusting lines (5,8,9) are to areas that are unprotected by the standard vest/breastplate (prostate/femoral, armpit, carotid).

Lamont


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## mrhnau (Jun 4, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This is a great point. Most arts are well-suited to their environments. But an art developed for the knife vs. bamboo armor, as with the JMA, and an art developed for a tropical climate where people wear little clothing, like the FMA, are each not perfectly suited for knife use in, say, a modern, cold climate like Anchorage, Alaska where people will wear thick winter jackets that defy weak slashes but don't need as hard a thrust as the armor would.
> 
> Whenever people who are contemplating studying the arts ask me what the best martial art is I always must ask them, What kind of opponent will you be facing?


Isn't that the essense of what a complete blade system should encompass? Not limiting attacks to certain favored locations based on field conditions? It's great if you train to find weak point (often joints) in armor. That might even work when unarmored, but would that be the most effective?

Thats kind of why I often think mixing of arts is ideal. Arts that originated in geographically constrained conditions have certain assumptions that are not always going to be valid. I guess tha ideal would be to train for multiple realistic circumstances (The Archorage example, body armor, current bullet proof vests, no armor, etc), but is there a single system out there that does train accordingly?

I half jokingly posted "Insert into the soft and mushy. Avoid the hard and crunchy.", but I think that encompasses alot of the scenario specific circumstances...


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 4, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Coming from a Pekiti perspective the three major thrusting lines (5,8,9) are to areas that are unprotected by the standard vest/breastplate (prostate/femoral, armpit, carotid).
> 
> Lamont



Exactly!

Balls, armpit, and neck.

If your opponent walks, moves his arms, and turns his head these will be vulnerable even in plate armor.

They can be made more difficult to penetrate but they have to be articulated to fight.

I wonder sometimes how many of those platemail wearing knights got stabbed in the taint after being hit with the ground.

Or breastplate wearing Conquistadors.


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## Blindside (Jun 4, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Exactly!
> 
> Balls, armpit, and neck.
> 
> ...


 
Have you seen the Henry VIIIth plate armor at the Tower of London?  The ONLY place that was unexposed was the eyeslits, supposedly you can't get a pin through the jointing.  And the "taint" was armored as well.... must have been hoping for short battles.  Of course, that was the apex of body armor.


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 4, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Have you seen the Henry VIIIth plate armor at the Tower of London?  The ONLY place that was unexposed was the eyeslits, supposedly you can't get a pin through the jointing.  And the "taint" was armored as well.... must have been hoping for short battles.  Of course, that was the apex of body armor.



No but I don't find it surprising either. It was full battle dress right?

It probably prompted the greater use of the Warhammer in battle didn't it?

Got to love that blunt force trauma.


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## Blindside (Jun 4, 2007)

My understanding of the warhammer was that the "hammer" was used to dent articulated joints to restrict mobility and the pick was used to finish the person off.  Talhoffer shows a bit of poleaxe use in his fechtbuk, but as I recall that was mostly unarmored.

Look at the cover of this:
http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Red-Roses-Archaeology-Battle/dp/1842170252

That square hole is the pick end of a warhammer or poleaxe.

I've had the chance to flip through this, the pictures are amazing and the forensics interesting, many of the wounds indicate warhammer/poleaxe use.  
http://www.amazon.com/Armour-Battle...4757768?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180975174&sr=1-1


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 4, 2007)

Interesting info Blindside.

I'll have to take a look at those titles when I find them.


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## Trent (Jun 6, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> I was merely pointing out the fact some of the KTS info is out in dvd.
> Not that it would lead to a level of competency by simply viewing it.
> 
> You're not first person to say you prefer to keep some stuff secret, but I personally don't feel that the best way to keep a secret is to tell people there is a secret.
> ...



Okay, I read a bit more into your questions and statements than offered, but the way it was posed as being able to figure out a great deal of the theory of the art from the video available isn't the case.  And there really are no secrets, just information that folks aren't ready for yet.  

I do understand the fight club idea, and agree with you to a point. Folks will always talk, no matter what, and it's nice to be able to provide some sort of reference, even if limited, that is controlled.


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## Hawke (Jun 7, 2007)

Using a knife to attack in self defense





Using empty hands to defend against a knife


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## Bill Bednarick (Jun 7, 2007)

Very interesting Hawke!

Do you train in this system?

It is very direct and I like the looks of it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 7, 2007)

Interesting I have seen these before.  I like the movement just wish the demonstrator would have bent his knees more.  Other than that there is a some useful material there.


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## Hawke (Jun 7, 2007)

My training in FMA and Silat is very limited.  I hope to train with hyooge_2000 and his buddies soon.  They workout in Los Angeles at a near by park.  Anyone interested can pm hyooge_2000.


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## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jun 14, 2007)

Hello All,

Interesting discussion, looking at this from a Sayoc Kali perspective and our use of Vital Templates: 

Vital Templates are considered a targeting system for vital points, within the body (Insertion points) that can be affected by an edged weapon. Simply said a template is a roadmap of targeting logically placed to maximize the feeders ability to stop an aggressor. Each vital template also teaches a natural flow from one target to another, increasing the number of targets that one can hit in a short period of time.

Now that said, integration of targeting is the next challenge to a students progression. Working on just a basic template, with a partner in a standard fashion is just 1 of over 30 variants that are introduced to a practitioner as his level of understanding grows. Training with variations causes the movements to become secondary and then can be pulled out of sequence and place the students closer to a realistic scenario where attacks or responses are random.

On top of this lets add training modifiers: induce fatigue, dizziness, pain, environmental changes, clothing or armor differences, multiple opponents, even simulating wounds and the affects on the body structure. This adds another level onto a students understanding and growth at a more realistic level.

Definitely along these lines the Atienza Kali practitioners offer similar training concepts, especially with the introduction of the Evolutions and training methodologies. 

Great points covered by all!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.

www.Bujinkandojo.net


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## bonviet (Jun 20, 2007)

Hi I think that insertion of the knife on exact targets is problematic. best. Think Soft places, Neck is good any angle,stab at the face. gets a real hot stove reaction.hopeful eye strike would be a show stopper. Soft targets in the abdomen abound,the kidneys and the belly button  show up from front and side ALOT. Under the rib cage, going straight in or an upper cut kind of stab(this feels really natural), 
Simply rolling the knife and play with cutting the hand of the grabbing hand(AFTER he's already got it not before.) . a good training partner will get it sometimes.,  sawing quickly back and forth will usually get the pull back reaction, Dropping energy like that found in Dumog like Wrenching or ww2 hand to hand stomping combined with sawing will usually get you knife hand free. Tried this many times WIth BIG guys with a complete dulled replica,It's the old Rattlesnake analogy and the Glass,With proper gear dull live blades i know it wastes some money But it will freak you out a bit because at that low brain you cannot believe it's not real, the rattlesnake analogy,(I collect and love herpetlogy and even if a Russels viper is on his cage and there is no chance he will get you if you put your hand up to the glass virtually everyone Pulls the hand back instinctively, or when the spitting cobras spit even if your wearing protetion you flinch.
Same with a "fake" knife sawing at you. Training knives are Great but we need better protective gear and SMALL SHiv like replicas to play with, i remeber seeing some. and we should play with these in out training. A philadelphia collar is good also if you want to be able to try stabbing the throat(amazing how much silat and FMA's are so hard to hit in the hand because we learn how to move them but train so much not considering the head. or throat. VERY good protective equipment is needed for this but try it. it's an eye opener.

Past that STAB STAB STAB.
Remember The weapons of the archipelagos a barong will lop all kinds of things off, but we don't carry those anymore, look at the viking swords etc from our western past. thrustin was a definite option but the good ole angle one or two done in a heart shaped pattern(reference dog brothers heart shaped pattern for full contact hitting, HARD to defend against a slight change of angle and the momentum will carry the blade or stick lower than expected still striking hard to the pelvic area or the knee. All golden shots with machetes and real swords,I do alot of jungle survival work and have to butcher animals up to goat size with edged weapons. and have machete's,and filipino weapons galore Plus some modern survial like knives with the neccesary chopping power to cut a bamboo bed(regardless of horror stories involving snakes and critters, just sleeping off the ground with a good quality mozzie net will keep them from falling on you and they regularly crawl under you at night, no biggie,   
a small tactical knife even a really nasty one like the civilian doesn't have that loping off ability not even close it's just a different animal.
I tried to start looking for a comparison a small compact 38 or 380 automatic is very dangerous, but practical for our times same as folders or small knives, A barong would be akin to a 380 semiauto main battle rifle conceptually identical But training and application is night and day. While running the orchard in the countryside i meet and carry weapons that are agricultural blades Something you can use to chop and clear Brambles up to all kinds of things, Vicious chopping motions with these weapons are natural and common place, I also have a sawed off 12 guage At about 15 inch barrel Real small and handy but you can't carry that in the city obviously the city and a push dagger or small knive and a 380 auto or 38, different story all together.
I feel the most comfortable stabbing and the closer you can keep the knife to your own body the better same as gun retention, and stiff arm him in the face or neck they are hard to get away from look at foor ball or rugby etc.,the better is smaller (no punyo etc)  the less leverage he can aquire from you the better while a 3-4 inch blade my personal carry might be 3 inches even smaller, plenty big enough to reach the right spots but very hard for him to find the leverage to do any kind of stripping moves, try it. We sparred and did stabbing defenses and disarms most training knives are so big they allow unrealistic access to his blade and the handle etc.with a small knife and you can't find a punyo and any stripping motion ends up in you running the blade across your hand or Wrist makes it pretty untenible just a few inches makes a real difference, this also makes a point inserting the blade, anywhere in the neck you'll reach the vitals, and puncturing the abdominal wall is your basic goal with belly stabs, the kidneys are only 2-3 inches tops from the tip of the skin so is the artery.
But these targets seem the most natural anyway and are common knowledge so i don't feel i'm giving away the goods.
again my rambling rambling rambling but this seems to be my experience.
 Bon
P.S sorry about the grammar etc.


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## bonviet (Jun 20, 2007)

BIG MISTAKE ON TYPING, In REAGRDS to the 380 caliber I refer to the 380ACP, and THE 308 or 7.62 nato sorry i jumbled the 8 and 0 around,
The 380 is found in many small pistols, the 308 is a common battfield weapon,especially in light beltfed weapons m-60, Fn's belt fed, HK G-3 etc. and a common deer Hunting caliber,here in the USA 
Pardon my mistake There are many things i'm not tech at and some people might not know the difference.
apologies
  Bon


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## lordrommel (Jul 22, 2007)

you guys talking more like a pro! why not ask a criminal who study kali/escrima/arnis....and let him talk about real experience. i am not against about this discussion but see to it that you talk the walk.thanks.


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## arnisador (Jul 22, 2007)

lordrommel said:


> why not ask a criminal who study kali/escrima/arnis....and let him talk about real experience.



Is that common in the Phil.? Criminals making use of the FMAs in their crimes?


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 23, 2007)

Great Thread so far! I can't believe that I missed it.
Good info so far. 
One point that I wanted to reiterate: most easy access/vital attack points off the trunk are equally accessible whether the the target is wearing body armor/lbv/whatever, i.e. carotid, femoral, & brachial (& subclavian *limited access*). These targets are very high-flow and if severed result in almost immediate incapacitation, within seconds. Elevated heart rate only accentuates things.





Thorasic & abdominal aorta & vena cava paths aren't easily accessible unless the weapon is overly long, the guy's just standing still, or you're behind him. & I don't think that we want to talk about rear attacks on a public forum... 
Also, besides "defanging the snake" kind of movements, I don't really agree with anything other than lethal shots once blades have entered the equation. 
Adrenaline can prevent someone from going into shock or even reacting to filleting limb cuts & the like. It's the same reason that when things are really rolling, mechanical compliance is so much better than pain compliance. 
The only attacks, other than lethal targets, that I would suggest in such a situation are those to the backs or insides of the major force delivering joints (knees, hips, elbows, shoulders). A basic study of anatomy will explain why.


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 23, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Is that common in the Phil.? Criminals making use of the FMAs in their crimes?



I don't get the EskrimaVision reference. I find it hard to believe that this kind of action would be endorsed by anyone legitimate.

*Imelda Marcos Assassination Attempt*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN4UNKNsjjc


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 24, 2007)

An interesting article that I refer folks to quite often since it deals with thrusting sword attacks & how horrible injuries just don't always stop the other guy as quickly as we'd like to think:
*The Dubious Quick Kill (Part 1 & 2)*
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.php
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.php


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 24, 2007)

Hey Doc_Jude I particulary like the post with the chart.  Thanks for joining the conversation!


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## althaur (Jul 30, 2007)

Most of the targets center-mass are protected front and back if the person is wearing modern body armor with SAPI plates.  Have to get around those.


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## arnisador (Jul 30, 2007)

althaur said:


> Most of the targets center-mass are protected front and back if the person is wearing modern body armor with SAPI plates.  Have to get around those.



Yes, some arts really emphasize working around modern body armour, while many arts have hidden in their techniques the remnants of techniques intended to work against older Spanish armour!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 31, 2007)

althaur said:


> Most of the targets center-mass are protected front and back if the person is wearing modern body armor with SAPI plates. Have to get around those.


 
You definately need to have in your mind how to deal with body armor and where you can go to avoid it.


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