# Rear leg vs lead leg (skipping) side kick - which is harder and which is supposed to be harder ?



## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Rear leg








Lead and skipping






Lead and skipping regular speed





I have two questions up for debate:

Which is harder, and which is supposed to be harder?

Meaning, if I have a harder lead leg, does it mean that my rear leg is not doing what it should be doing or vice versa?

I am not ruling out: either one, as an answer



Discuss!


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Rear leg
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Harder in terms of able to do well technique wise ?  Ability to land on an opponent ?


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Harder in terms of able to do well technique wise ?  Ability to land on an opponent ?



I can't edit the topic. I meant power.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I can't edit the topic. I meant power.


All things being equal, the greater the distance the leg travels the more 'potential' for power you can generate.   If your target is moving or has the ability to block or evade the kick, the question is not as simple to answer as other factors come into play.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> All things being equal, the greater the distance the leg travels the more 'potential' for power you can



The lead leg has a leap though, and it doesn't switch direction. Compare hook punch on a bag with a leaping hook and you'll notice that the leaping one is 30% harder.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The lead leg has a leap though, and it doesn't switch direction. Compare hook punch on a bag with a leaping hook and you'll notice that the leaping one is 30% harder.


Leaping hook ?   Not a term I have heard before.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Leaping hook ?   Not a term I have heard before.



Who cares what you call it?


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

I suppose, if you were only hitting bags, the greater the distance the leg travels the more 'potential' for power you can generate.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I suppose, if you were only hitting bags, the greater the distance the leg travels the more 'potential' for power you can generate.



If it that were true, rear leg side kicks would be equally hard as rear leg roundhouse kicks. The reason they aren't is because the leg switches direction in the side kick


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> If it that were true, rear leg side kicks would be equally hard as rear leg roundhouse kicks. The reason they aren't is because the leg switches direction in the side kick


Hahaha, ok, well you seem to have all the answers you need to hit a bag hard.  Good luck.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> If it that were true, rear leg side kicks would be equally hard as rear leg roundhouse kicks. The reason they aren't is because the leg switches direction in the side kick


Or maybe you're just not doing them right.


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## Tman (Oct 7, 2021)

Delivered with proper technique and efficiency either will be powerful.   Really the only difference is how the kick gets to the chambered position.  

Personally I prefer a sliding front leg side kick.   As you left you leg to chamber push off with the back foot to slide forward and deliver the side kick.  It can also be done with a round or hook kick.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Hahaha, ok, well you seem to have all the answers you need to hit a bag hard.  Good luck.



No I don't. The confounding variable is that lead side kick has a very short path, and this needs to be taken into consideration. I think leaping weighs more than travel path but that's just me..


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## Tman (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> If it that were true, rear leg side kicks would be equally hard as rear leg roundhouse kicks. The reason they aren't is because the leg switches direction in the side kick


From the chamber position the kicks are the same and should deliver equal power.  However the rear leg will take longer to get chambered and be telegraphed more.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Tman said:


> From the chamber position the kicks are the same and should deliver equal power.



No they aren't. Different trajectory and contact.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Or maybe you're just not doing them right.



The bag doesn't lie.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> No I don't. The confounding variable is that lead side kick has a very short path, and this needs to be taken into consideration. I think leaping weighs more than travel path but that's just me..


You may want to consider how you are interacting with people here.   If you ask a question and someone takes the time to respond, perhaps you may want to consider the information they are trying to convey to you before you give them the answer to your own question.  

Seems like you are only interested in how much power you can generate to kick a non moving object like a bag.  I'm not sure how useful that information is but I am sure you have a very good reason to ask it.  Good luck with that.


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## Tman (Oct 7, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> You may want to consider how you are interacting with people here.   If you ask a question and someone takes the time to respond, perhaps you may want to consider the information they are trying to convey to you before you give them the answer to your own question.
> 
> Seems like you are only interested in how much power you can generate to kick a non moving object like a bag.  I'm not sure how useful that information is but I am sure you have a very good reason to ask it.  Good luck with that.


He did the same thing on the Reddit, now he has moved here to troll folks.   Asks a question or for feedback them explains why you are wrong.


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## drop bear (Oct 7, 2021)

The one with the skip in it should be harder.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Tman said:


> He did the same thing on the Reddit, now he has moved here to troll folks.   Asks a question or for feedback them explains why you are wrong.


 
If somebody writes a potentially *false* categorical statement based on an ommited premise (change of trajectory), I will use my friend science and correct them.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The one with the skip in it should be harder.



That is my experience. Skip weighs more (literally) than pivot. 

Let's see how many agree.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The bag doesn't lie.


It doesn't have to.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It doesn't have to.



It can't lie. I know if I hit the spot and when I missed it based on the bags objective reaction.  I have no trouble generating power with any one  of those three shots. I condensed my kicks to avoid wrecking the apartment and they still had "kime" (Korean?).


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## Tman (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The bag doesn't lie.


The video doesn't lie.   Watch the video labeled "Lead and skipping" and step thru it frame by frame.   All your "skip" does is replace you front foot with your rear foot, there is nearly zero forward movement for your body.   By the time you start your kick the forward movement has stopped.   I suggest some private lessons with your instructor.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It can't lie. I know if I hit the spot and when I missed it based on the bags objective reaction.  I have no trouble generating power with any one  of those three shots. I condensed my kicks to avoid wrecking the apartment and they still had "kime" (Korean?).


That's kind of the point. You're convinced that any difference is in the kick, when it's really more about how you do the kick.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Tman said:


> The video doesn't lie.   Watch the video labeled "Lead and skipping" and step thru it frame by frame.   All your "skip" does is replace you front foot with your rear foot, there is nearly zero forward movement for your body.   By the time you start your kick the forward movement has stopped.   I suggest some private lessons with your instructor.



Regardless of whether there is much forward movement, there is a jump up and then thrust.. And this clearly creates force due to the momentum it creates.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's kind of the point. You're convinced that any difference is in the kick, when it's really more about how you do the kick.



I am convinced that a swing is more impactful than an pivot and a thrust, at least for human beings. Is that a controversial view point?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Regardless of whether there is much forward movement, there is a jump up and then thrust.. And this clearly creates force due to the momentum it creates.


So in your mind, vertical movement creates forward momentum? You better talk to your physicist friend. You know, the one who doesn't know what the formula for kinetic energy is.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I am convinced that a swing is more impactful than an pivot and a thrust, at least for human beings. Is that a controversial view point?


I think it's more ignorant than controversial.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> So in your mind, vertical movement creates forward momentum? You better talk to your physicist friend. You know, the one who doesn't know what the formula for kinetic energy is.



Lol no. I said that even If I don't have _*forward*_ momentum, I still have *momentum*  from the jump. When I do the rear leg pivot version I also have momentum but not from a jump.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think it's more ignorant than controversial.



Let's try it. If you wanted to recruit maximum power generation with a baseball bat, would you rather swing up and then poke forward, or would you swing circularly? I use the baseball bat as an analogy to your leg in an effort to enlighten you.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Let's try it. If you wanted to recruit maximum power generation with a baseball bat, would you rather swing up and then poke forward, or would you swing circularly? I use the baseball bat as an analogy to your leg in an effort to enlighten you.


I'd do different things in different situations. The notion that any one technique is best for all situations is more than naive.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd do different things in different situations. The notion that any one technique is best for all situations is more than naive.



The situation is generating as much power as possible, with a swung baseball bat. I did not say anything about pragmatism.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> If it that were true, rear leg side kicks would be equally hard as rear leg roundhouse kicks. The reason they aren't is because the leg switches direction in the side kick


There's more than one thing that can impact power. As he said "all things being equal", if you were to take just that one factor, the one that travels longer has more potential for power. So a close side kick has less potential for power than a farther side kick (to a point), and same with roundhouse kicks. Doesn't mean that a far side kick can be more powerful than a roundhouse kick or vise versa, that's an entirely different question than the one he was answering entirely.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 7, 2021)

General question-what's the purpose of asking a question you are already convinced you know the answer of, and are not interested in hearing other ideas? Why not just state your opinion to begin with?


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2021)

Here is skip lead leg.   I think you can get more of your weight to travel toward the target a greater distance more easily and coordinate that movement with the kick to ad power as opposed to using the rear leg.   I think the difference may be in the skip with both feet on the ground as opposed to simply pushing off with one foot as the rear leg moves forward.   I have no scientific justification - only experience.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> There's more than one thing that can impact power. As he said "all things being equal", if you were to take just that one factor, the one that travels longer has more potential for power. So a close side kick has less potential for power than a farther side kick (to a point), and same with roundhouse kicks. Doesn't mean that a far side kick can be more powerful than a roundhouse kick or vise versa, that's an entirely different question than the one he was answering entirely.



I don't believe that he is correct even in an all else equal situation.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Here is skip lead leg.   I think you can get more of your weight to travel toward the target a greater distance more easily and coordinate that movement with the kick to ad power as opposed to using the rear leg.   I think the difference may be in the skip with both feet on the ground as opposed to simply pushing off with one foot as the rear leg moves forward.   I have no scientific justification - only experience.



Good kick


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## Tman (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Let's try it. If you wanted to recruit maximum power generation with a baseball bat, would you rather swing up and then poke forward, or would you swing circularly? I use the baseball bat as an analogy to your leg in an effort to enlighten you.


Since we are talking about a side kick, I think a better analogy would be a pool cue.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I don't believe that he is correct even in an all else equal situation.


But your argument didn't address that. It addressed something unrelated to his statement.


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## Tman (Oct 7, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Here is skip lead leg.   I think you can get more of your weight to travel toward the target a greater distance more easily and coordinate that movement with the kick to ad power as opposed to using the rear leg.   I think the difference may be in the skip with both feet on the ground as opposed to simply pushing off with one foot as the rear leg moves forward.   I have no scientific justification - only experience.


Great example the kicker's momentum is moving forward not up.   His whole body is behind the kick.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But your argument didn't address that. It addressed something unrelated to his statement.



It adresses exactly that. All else equal, switching trajectory of a swing half way negatively affects the power. You wouldn't think that at first glance but in practise it does. You are not as strong after the pivot as you are before it. You are equally strong when throwing a roundhouse kick though because the motion is consistent.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Tman said:


> Great example the kicker's momentum is moving forward not up.   His whole body is behind the kick.



There is no one correct way. If you want to kick from where you are standing but you want extra power, jumping up increases momentum behind the strike.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

And in case you didn't notice, my kick travels down, so the jump makes even more sense.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> And in case you didn't notice, my kick travels down, so the jump makes even more sense.


Remember me saying you were doing it wrong? Yeah. That.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Remember me saying you were doing it wrong? Yeah. That.



I guess you never heard of oblique kicks. But don't worry, they just break stuff. You haven't missed a thing.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

I would like to hear my victim complain after I break his thigh in half:

"You weren't doing what you called it, so my knee is actually fine! "


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## skribs (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The bag doesn't lie.


If the bag doesn't lie, then you can test it yourself and get your own answers.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

skribs said:


> If the bag doesn't lie, then you can test it yourself and get your own answers.



The eye test isn't very good when there's power in both. Better to hear from people who've been kicked.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2021)

Tman said:


> Delivered with proper technique and efficiency either will be powerful.   Really the only difference is how the kick gets to the chambered position.
> 
> Personally I prefer a sliding front leg side kick.   As you left you leg to chamber push off with the back foot to slide forward and deliver the side kick.  It can also be done with a round or hook kick.


Love these kicks. Sneaky & wicked it you have good speed.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> The bag doesn't lie.


On that you are correct. 
Maybe you need to think about this.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The one with the skip in it should be harder.


For most everyone I think this is true but I have know people who can throw a rear leg kick as fast and hard as most peoples skip.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Here is skip lead leg.   I think you can get more of your weight to travel toward the target a greater distance more easily and coordinate that movement with the kick to ad power as opposed to using the rear leg.   I think the difference may be in the skip with both feet on the ground as opposed to simply pushing off with one foot as the rear leg moves forward.   I have no scientific justification - only experience.


Sir, do you have information on the tool they are using to hold the boards?


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It adresses exactly that. All else equal, switching trajectory of a swing half way negatively affects the power. You wouldn't think that at first glance but in practise it does. You are not as strong after the pivot as you are before it. You are equally strong when throwing a roundhouse kick though because the motion is consistent.


Quit comparing a linear kick to a circular kick. The argument just does not work, in either type of kick.


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## dvcochran (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I would like to hear my victim complain after I break his thigh in half:
> 
> "You weren't doing what you called it, so my knee is actually fine! "


Sooo, the kicks in your videos are going to break the biggest bone in the body? 

Now that is rich.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Sooo, the kicks in your videos are going to break the biggest bone in the body?
> 
> Now that is rich.



I meant the thing that holds up the knee. 

Anyway, a roundhouse travelling down is still called a roundhouse... A low kick roundhouse that is. A side kick travelling down has for some reason a new name but it is a side kick.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Quit comparing a linear kick to a circular kick. The argument just does not work, in either type of kick.



That's what I was saying. Quit comparing them as if travel extent decided it.


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## Buka (Oct 7, 2021)

Sometimes the Martial comedy on our site is even funnier than Master Ken.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

I will admit that I screwed up the question by having an oblique lead version.

I will post a new lead one traveling like the extention of my rear leg one. Then we will see if it's comparable power


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

,


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have know people who can throw a rear leg kick as fast and hard as most peoples skip.



Please,  I'm blushing over here...


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 7, 2021)

Here is the answer to the core question.  The skipping lead leg side kick will land with greater force than a pivoting side kick with the rear leg.  I think that by doing both on a heavy bag, the truth is obvious.  There are a few reasons this is true.

The rear leg kick is being launched from more or less a static platform since the body is rooted by the supporting leg  (pivoting it during the kick may give four inches of movement, but IMO, this is not significant).  The skipping lead side kick is being launched from a platform moving toward the target a couple of feet or more.  This adds to the speed of the kicking foot. 

The speed of the skip itself is quite crisp and sudden (if done well), _much_ faster than the speed of the rear leg being powered forward.  The rear leg kick has just too far to travel and is easier to detect and evade.  The required pivot and body turn itself is a huge tell.



Earl Weiss said:


> Here is skip lead leg.   I think you can get more of your weight to travel toward the target a greater distance more easily and coordinate that movement with the kick to ad power as opposed to using the rear leg.   I think the difference may be in the skip with both feet on the ground as opposed to simply pushing off with one foot as the rear leg moves forward.   I have no scientific justification - only experience.


This video clearly shows that the weight of the entire body is being delivered in the skipping side kick.  With the rear leg kick, you have just the weight of the leg moving in, augmented by the (again, comparatively minor) power transfer afforded by the supporting leg's pivot.

I think any who still have doubts should actually compare the kicks on a heavy bag.  Also, find video of Joe Lewis using the skipping side kick to bash in a number of people's ribs.  

So, based on all this (and personal experience), I think the skipping side kick is faster, lands with greater impact, is more economical in motion, and is less detectable (especially if the lead foot "cheat" step is not taken as seen in the video).


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> So, based on all this (and personal experience), I think the skipping side kick is faster, lands with greater impact, is more economical in motion, and is less detectable (especially if the lead foot "cheat" step is not taken as seen in the video).



But is based in a stance where that's the only powerful kick at your disposal. Every other kick is at a power disadvantage.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Now I got them ready for a fair comparison.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Sir, do you have information on the tool they are using to hold the boards?


Yes, it is a holder we developed I call it the "Master Breaker"   and I have plans. PM me your-mail and I will send them, it also has a wall mount variation. If you have the lumber cut for you it takes about an hour to assemble.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 7, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> So, based on all this (and personal experience), I think the skipping side kick is faster, lands with greater impact, is more economical in motion, and is less detectable (especially if the lead foot "cheat" step is not taken as seen in the video).


Yes, done differently when sparring a la Joe Lewis.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Yes, it is a holder we developed I call it the "Master Breaker"   and I have plans. PM me your-mail and I will send them, it also has a wall mount variation. If you have the lumber cut for you it takes about an hour to assemble.



Since you linked to your club… Why did your instructor launch the United States Tae Kwon-Do Federation, if it follows the ITF curriculum anyway? Was it for economic reasons or did they depart in some way from the ITF?

Suppose you ran the exact same school under ITF affiliation, would part of the money go to one of the ITF headquarters then instead?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 7, 2021)

If you always keep your right side forward, you only need to train your

- right leg skip in side kick, and
- left leg turn back side kick.

Do you need to train

- left leg skip in side kick, and
- right leg turn back side kick,

that you may never use? What's your thought?


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 7, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> But is based in a stance where that's the only powerful kick at your disposal. Every other kick is at a power disadvantage.


What?  How so?
Why do you make claims but offer no reasons?  It's a drag.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 7, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> What?  How so?
> Why do you make claims but offer no reasons?  It's a drag.



Do I need to offer reasons for why lead leg round kicks and hook kicks are less powerful off the lead leg??

Only the side kick is harder from the lead leg, which my point.


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## drop bear (Oct 7, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> For most everyone I think this is true but I have know people who can throw a rear leg kick as fast and hard as most peoples skip.



Kind of two different conversations.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you always keep your right side forward, you only need to train your
> 
> - right leg skip in side kick, and
> - left leg turn back side kick.
> ...



No but you still need to stretch the other side because the opposite hip is connected to the one you are kicking with.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> But is based in a stance where that's the only powerful kick at your disposal. Every other kick is at a power disadvantage.


IMO not correct.   You do the skip lead leg.  side kick   from an L or Sitting stance. Lead leg hook or  roundhouse  kick is not less powerful  from those stance.   Same for other lead leg kicks like downward, pick shape, vertical etc.  Or did you mean to say the lead leg / foot version is les powerful than the rear leg / foot version?


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Do I need to offer reasons for why lead leg round kicks and hook kicks are less powerful off the lead leg??
> 
> Only the side kick is harder from the lead leg, which my point.


I think you need to clarify.  Lead leg ...kicks less powerful off the lead leg.??????????   Did you mean to say this kick done with the lead leg is less powerful than the same kick off the rear leg?


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Did you mean to say this kick done with the lead leg is less powerful than the same kick off the rear leg?



Yes.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Since you linked to your club… Why did your instructor launch the United States Tae Kwon-Do Federation, if it follows the ITF curriculum anyway? Was it for economic reasons or did they depart in some way from the ITF?
> 
> Suppose you ran the exact same school under ITF affiliation, would part of the money go to one of the ITF headquarters then instead?


Back in 1974 the ITF needed a national governing body in each country. The USTF was formed to fill that need in the USA. 

Following General Choi's death and the attempted NK takeover of the ITF at the memorial service in NK, several USTF members who were US government employees were getting inquires as to their relationship with an NK entity since an ITF faction was controlled by NK and the USTF was a National governing body although not aligned with that faction.   To avoid problems they would have had to resign from the USTF. The simpler solution, particularly since the ITF was fractured into 3 parts at that time and not what it had been,  was to withdraw the USTF from any official association with the ITF. 

As a rule schools send $ to the National and International association they belong to whether it be in the form of school dues, student membership dues or test / certification fees.   So, the answer is yes.   When with the ITF this is what I did.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you always keep your right side forward, you only need to train your
> 
> - right leg skip in side kick, and
> - left leg turn back side kick.
> ...


I don't know if he ever trained the other leg, but perhaps with rare exception Bill Wallace was known for only using lead foot kicks.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Back in 1974 the ITF needed a national governing body in each country. The USTF was formed to fill that need in the USA.



But there are ITF affiliates in the US also so what's the deal there? Did they follow Chois sons ITF?  Why aren't they under USTF?


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## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Kind of two different conversations.


How so? I get it is not a direct answer to the OP, but due to the OP not much else has either.


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## andyjeffries (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I condensed my kicks to avoid wrecking the apartment and they still had "kime" (Korean?).



Kime is Japanese. I believe in Korean they just use "him" (힘) which translates as power, force or strength. That's the only term I've heard Kukkiwon instructors use on courses.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Kime is Japanese. I believe in Korean they just use "him" (힘) which translates as power, force or strength. That's the only term I've heard Kukkiwon instructors use on courses.



It's not power per se, but pointed power. The power you intend. For instance if you throw a push kick but intended a thrust kick, you failed. So something like pointed and profound power output is  how I view kime.


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## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Kime is Japanese. I believe in Korean they just use "him" (힘) which translates as power, force or strength. That's the only term I've heard Kukkiwon instructors use on courses.


In simplest terms ‘kime’ means decision or to decide. 
gyeojeong would be the Korean term. Honestly, I do not remember hearing this said very often.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> But there are ITF affiliates in the US also so what's the deal there? Did they follow Chois sons ITF?  Why aren't they under USTF?


Prior to the USTF leaving the ITF the USTF was the only official body for the ITF in the USA for a long Time. Then (now)  GM Hwang returned to the ITF and was allowed to form KATU as another body. So there were 2 USA ITF Affiliates.  There was a scattering of some other old timers who remained somewhat independent but maintained ties to the ITF.      When the Son's group split off some elected to follow him. When the NK group split off some elected to follow them.   Some of those later left those groups to join the original core group.   So, now there are various National bodies in the USA affiliated with Various  groups using the ITF moniker. The USTF has no official ties to any of the ITF groups.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 8, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> Kime is Japanese. I believe in Korean they just use "him" (힘) which translates as power, force or strength. That's the only term I've heard Kukkiwon instructors use on courses.


_Kime_ refers less to power and more to focusing that power at a specific point, so may have a somewhat different connotation than the Korean _him.  _As to what InfiniteLoop was trying to say using the word, it's vague as usual. To really understand some MA concepts, training and study are needed.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Prior to the USTF leaving the ITF the USTF was the only official body for the ITF in the USA for a long Time. Then (now)  GM Hwang returned to the ITF and was allowed to form KATU as another body. So there were 2 USA ITF Affiliates.  There was a scattering of some other old timers who remained somewhat independent but maintained ties to the ITF.      When the Son's group split off some elected to follow him. When the NK group split off some elected to follow them.   Some of those later left those groups to join the original core group.   So, now there are various National bodies in the USA affiliated with Various  groups using the ITF moniker. The USTF has no official ties to any of the ITF groups.



Are your students allowed to compete in any of the ITFs? Does their allowance  depend on if they got their belts prior to the USTF severing ties with ITF(s)?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 8, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Bill Wallace was known for only using lead foot kicks.


My teacher only trained "head lock" and "leg twisting" on his right side. I asked him why and he said, "For general skill, you train both sides. For door guarding skill, you train only one side".

For health and balance, to train on both sides is better. But for combat, to train one side is better.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My teacher only trained "head lock" and "leg twisting" on his right side. I asked him why and he said, "For general skill, you train both sides. For door guarding skill, you train only one side".
> 
> For health and balance, to train on both sides is better. But for combat, to train one side is better.


This should not be taken to extremes though. I know a few people that have bodies messed up because they only trained/used one side for specific activities. 

If you mess up your health, then you will not do as well in combat, as if you kept care of your health. So some balance is important, even for combat.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This should not be taken to extremes though. I know a few people that have bodies messed up because they only trained/used one side for specific activities.
> 
> If you mess up your health, then you will not do as well in combat, as if you kept care of your health. So some balance is important, even for combat.


You don't have to train the same technique on both sides. You can train different techniques on different sides.

If you always put right side forward, you may train right jab and left cross. You have to switch sides in order to train left jab and right cross. Is that really necessary? Right jab and left cross can still balance your body.

Do you always inverse your training form (right punch -> left punch, left kick -> right kick)?


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 8, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Are your students allowed to compete in any of the ITFs? Does their allowance  depend on if they got their belts prior to the USTF severing ties with ITF(s)?


Only if it is an "Open" competition.


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## Tman (Oct 8, 2021)

Buka said:


> Sometimes the Martial comedy on our site is even funnier than Master Ken.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you always keep your right side forward, you only need to train your
> 
> - right leg skip in side kick, and
> - left leg turn back side kick.
> ...


I was taught if you do 10 kicks on one side you do 10 with the other side.   By doing this you balance the body and if caught off guard you can fight from either a left or right stance.   Also being able to switch stance can throw off you opponent.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 8, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> Only if it is an "Open" competition.



How do you solve the copyright issue of the dobok now that all ITF affiliation has ended? Do you guys have a new manufacturer?


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## Buka (Oct 8, 2021)

Tman said:


> I was taught if you do 10 kicks on one side you do 10 with the other side.   By doing this you balance the body and if caught off guard you can fight from either a left or right stance.   Also being able to switch stance can throw off you opponent.


You were taught correctly, in my opinion.


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## Buka (Oct 8, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My teacher only trained "head lock" and "leg twisting" on his right side. I asked him why and he said, "For general skill, you train both sides. For door guarding skill, you train only one side".
> 
> For health and balance, to train on both sides is better. But for combat, to train one side is better.


I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.

HOWEVER, training for a professional match, that could be a different story.


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## dvcochran (Oct 8, 2021)

Buka said:


> I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.
> 
> HOWEVER, training for a professional match, that could be a different story.


I am unorthodox from birth. However, I was a pretty unbiased and even fighter. 
I do strongly feel a person should work their ‘go to’ techniques more, no matter which side they throw them from. 
I tried never to use them to the point of predictably but they are the  go to techniques for a reason. 
Polish, polish, polish.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 8, 2021)

Buka said:


> I completely and wholeheartedly disagree.
> 
> HOWEVER, training for a professional match, that could be a different story.


Let's take the "shin bite" as an example. In order to develop this technique, you have to spend time to use your shin born to press against a small tree  (or pole). The more time that you spend on it, the stronger that your technique will be. So you have 2 options here.

1. Spend 1 hour on your left leg, and spend 1 hour on your right leg.
2. Spend 2 hour on your right leg, and don't train your left leg.

You will have different result depend on which method that you may choose.

1. Average good on both legs.
2. Very good on right leg, bad on left leg.

IMO, there is no right or wrong but trade off.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> 1. Spend 1 hour on your left leg, and spend 1 hour on your right leg.
> 2. Spend 2 hour on your right leg, and don't train your left leg.
> 
> You will have different result depend on which method that you may choose.
> ...


Oshima Tsutomu, Shihan, highest ranked student of Funakoshi Gichin and founder/head of Shotokan Karate of America said "Eliminating one weakness is better than adding one strength."


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 9, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> How do you solve the copyright issue of the dobok now that all ITF affiliation has ended? Do you guys have a new manufacturer?


I don't need to solve anything since it's not "My" organization.   I do know years ago USTF obtained USA protection for the "Tree" on the back of the uniform and certain other ITF marks. After the breakup various ITFs modified those marks somewhat.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 9, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> I do know years ago USTF obtained USA protection for the "Tree" on the back of the uniform and certain other ITF marks. After the breakup various ITFs modified those marks somewhat.



Why do courts waste tax payers money with that type of nonsense? Same with the ITF logo dispute. It's beyond autistic.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You don't have to train the same technique on both sides. You can train different techniques on different sides.


I think the body will naturally follow this path of balance if allowed.  I think of my training like a great oak tree. My root and footwork must be strong on all sides.  So from the waist down the right side and left side must be the same strength and ability.  Rising above the footwork and root, are my branches (strikes). The left and right sides of a tree have different size branches.   This is like our kicks and strikes where the right side has a different preference than the left.  

Even babies will naturally choose which hand to use for reaching.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 17, 2021)

Watch
					






					www.facebook.com


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 17, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You don't have to train the same technique on both sides. You can train different techniques on different sides.


I think all the basics kicks, strikes and blocks should be practiced to a competent useful level on both sides.  This will make you solid in any situation. Then, we can have a favorite "tricky" move or two that works best on our strong side such as a spin kick or other move that might be just right for a particular situation.

If the opponent knows you can't throw certain moves from a certain side, he better knows how to enter on that side and not have to worry about defending that weakness.  This allows him to devote more defensive attention to your other moves.

When the opponent knows you can throw various moves effectively from either side he must be twice as vigilant and will have more defensive choices to make, both of which reduces his reaction speed.

I am a strong believer in being "professional" and having strong basics on both sides.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 18, 2021)

One aspect not yet mentioned vis   vis training both sides and for that matter various striking surfaces   (I.e. palm vs fist)   is that if injury prevents the use of one the other is still available.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 18, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> One aspect not yet mentioned vis   vis training both sides and for that matter various striking surfaces   (I.e. palm vs fist)   is that if injury prevents the use of one the other is still available.



I'm guessing that you can alert an examiner in advance that one side is compromised and still take a belt test?


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 18, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I'm guessing that you can alert an examiner in advance that one side is compromised and still take a belt test?


Not only can you I would recommend it.   (For any physical issues not readily apparent.)


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Let’s do a test.. Can you tell based on the picture if this was a rear or lead leg side kick? 

Should you be able to tell the way the body is configurated?


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## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Let’s do a test.. Can you tell based on the picture if this was a rear or lead leg side kick?
> 
> Should you be able to tell the way the body is configurated?


Hard to say but based on arm position I suspect it is a rear leg kick. 
However, your hips are ranked over pretty good.


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## Earl Weiss (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Should you be able to tell the way the body is configurated?


No.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Let’s do a test.. Can you tell based on the picture if this was a rear or lead leg side kick?
> 
> Should you be able to tell the way the body is configurated?


No. Even if you were doing it properly.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. Even if you were doing it properly.



I lack talent.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I lack talent.


That's at least partly correct.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's at least partly correct.



Do you consider it a talent to do controlled explosive movement? I  thought so at at first  but not anymore.. 

You could argue explosiveness is a talent but balance is ascquired and also tied to flexibility, which is ascquired as well.

So basically, you can't get any other result than this if you have someone like me do it enough times.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Do you consider it a talent to do controlled explosive movement? I  thought so at at first  but not anymore..
> 
> You could argue explosiveness is a talent but balance is ascquired and also tied to flexibility, which is ascquired as well.
> 
> So basically, you can't get any other result than this if you have someone like me do it enough times.


I think some people can be taught easily. Some with more difficulty. And some are pretty much impossible to teach.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think some people can be taught easily. Some with more difficulty. And some are pretty much impossible to teach.



FWIW, GM Yeo did say when I was a beginner that there is potential. He even said :no,no you are good" I asked him how he knows when I'm a clueless beginner and he claimed to see it in the trajectory of the movements. I though it was a strange rationale, but now in retrospect,  I think he was referring to to the concept of alignment.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> FWIW, GM Yeo did say when I was a beginner that there is potential. He even said :no,no you are good" I asked him how he knows when I'm a clueless beginner and he claimed to see it in the trajectory of the movements. I though it was a strange rationale, but now in retrospect,  I think he was referring to to the concept of alignment.


Sometimes we all tell little white lies just to be nice, or to encourage someone.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sometimes we all tell little white lies just to be nice, or to encourage someone.



Of course! I just never saw it uttered to anyone else in 4 years. I saw the opposite all the time however


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## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> I lack talent.


Yep.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Yep.



 You were a fighter in the WTF when they had piss poor technique.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Btw, I don't care. It could have might as well been a postal worker saying it. I don't respect the ITF anymore than those guys. I'm past it.

Suffice to say, Dirty Dog can train another 50 years and he will still never develop my explosiveness. It wasn't taught. Nor was my control.

He likes to say it was because it validates his role more.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> You were a fighter in the WTF when they had piss poor technique.


The technique there was better than any of the selfie clips you're posted...


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> Btw, I don't care. It could have might as well been a postal worker saying it. I don't respect the ITF anymore than them. I'm past it.
> 
> Suffice to say, Dirty Dog can train another 50 years and he will still never develop my explosivenes. It wasn't taught. Nor was my control.


I'm happy to hear that you don't think I'll ever kick like you do. Thank you.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> The technique there was better than any of the selfie clips you're posted.



Some real fine soccer kicks they threw there with hilarious guard.

But let's hear some more bragging from Dvcochran about his credentials..


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## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> You were a fighter in the WTF when they had piss poor technique.


If you think that was me, it is not.

IF that is truly from a fully sanctioned WTF tournament would had to around 1984-85 based on the gear they are wearing. But it is not; rather some local fare from who knows where.

A 30 second clip of any match tells little to nothing. A person with any kind of experience would understand this.

But clearly, that in not your situation.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> If you think that was me, it is not.
> 
> IF that is truly from a fully sanctioned WTF tournament would had to around 1984-85 based on the gear they are wearing. But it is not; rather some local fare from who knows where.
> 
> ...



It was a Swedish National WTF Championship in 1987 which Magnus Cederblad won without having ever formally trained in TaeKwonDo. That's how shitty the quality of 80s WTF TKD was. Try doing that today.


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## InfiniteLoop (Oct 21, 2021)

He also won the Nordic WTF Championship same year, so it's either a Swedish or a Nordic Championship


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## dvcochran (Oct 21, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It was a Swedish National WTF Championship in 1987 which Magnus Cederblad won without having ever formally trained in TaeKwonDo. That's how shitty the quality of 80s WTF TKD was. Try doing that today.


Dude. Are you drunk or something? Don't be a dxxk because all you are doing is making an *** out of yourself. 

Like I said a 30 second clip means nothing. 

What do you mean by 'that'? There was almost nothing in the video.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 22, 2021)

InfiniteLoop said:


> It was a Swedish National WTF Championship in 1987 which Magnus Cederblad won without having ever formally trained in TaeKwonDo. That's how shitty the quality of 80s WTF TKD was. Try doing that today.


 I've read most of your comments on this thread and still cannot understand the point you are trying to make.   You post photos and videos of yourself doing various kicks and asked people here for feedback, which they have given you.   Through your responses, it seems that you aren't quite interested in their feedback but more interested in providing your own viewpoint and why it is better.  

Ok, if you want to be the king of your bedroom or the hallway be my guest.  Seems to me though you have an actual interest in MA which is why we all come to this site but most of the folks here will suggest you get some formal instruction and train to improve in whatever MA you are interested in.   If you have questions or comments or want resources to advance your training, this is a good place to start looking and may give you some leads on how to accomplish your goals.   

However, that being said, it begins by stepping on the floor and actually training, pressure testing your ideas and continuing to improve via feedback.    Kicking air and bags in your bedroom by yourself won't tell you very much.  You don't like the video of the tournament you posted, why not train and enter a tournament yourself and see how well you do ?   Maybe your explosiveness will be apparent for everyone to see then and you can post the video here so we can understand the point you are trying to make.


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