# Sudan Arrests Teacher for Insulting Islam



## Ceicei (Nov 26, 2007)

This is a paragraph taken from the article on CBS news:



> The British Foreign Office said Gibbons, 54, was arrested after she had allowed her 7-year-old pupils to choose a name for a stuffed teddy bear, and they chose the name Muhammad.



The name is a very common one...  the children picked that name and yet, she is arrested?  What if the bear was not be named after the Prophet, but after somebody else with a similar name?  Why couldn't the Sudanese authorities request the class to simply select another name instead of allowing this to escalate?

The next article from MSNBC news has a bit more information:



> Boulos said Gibbons was following a British National Curriculum course designed to teach young pupils about animals and their habitats. This year's animal was the bear.
> 
> Gibbons, who joined Unity in August, asked a girl to bring in her teddy bear to help the Year 2 class focus, said Boulos.
> 
> The teacher then asked the class to name the toy. "They came up with eight names including Abdullah, Hassan and Mohammed. Then she explained what it meant to vote and asked them to choose the name." Twenty out of the 23 children chose Mohammed.



I wonder if there is more to the situation.  Is it merely on the basis of just a name?  Is there another reason or agenda for arresting her and using the bear's name controversy as an excuse?  Is the idea of voting or trying to introduce the concepts of democracy to other countries considered threatening?

- Ceicei


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2007)

Sheesh. Well, sadly, in the Sudan this is the lesson to be learned...voting will only get you in trouble.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 26, 2007)

You've got to _really _watch your step in some places!


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## theletch1 (Nov 26, 2007)

The message is intolerance.


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## Big Don (Nov 26, 2007)

Maybe they'll let him off if he stones the twenty kids...


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2007)

This has just been on the BBC news, the teacher faces a prison sentence or up to 40 lashes. Her family are very worried about her obviously, she gave up a good good here teaching to go to the Sudan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7112929.stm


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 26, 2007)

In the same vein, how do ya like this one? Saudi's punish rape VICTIM.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/11/17/saudi.rape.victim/index.html



> *Story Highlights*
> 
> -Woman, 19, gets six months prison, 200 lashes for meeting with unrelated man
> 
> ...



Islamic justice systems greatest hits.


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> In the same vein, how do ya like this one? Saudi's punish rape VICTIM.



This one stunned me. It's absolutely barbaric. I was surprised that I could still be surprised by this regime. It isn't the 21st century everywhere.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 26, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This one stunned me. It's absolutely barbaric. I was surprised that I could still be surprised by this regime. *It isn't the 21st century everywhere*.


 
Supposedly.

What really bothers me is when you juxtapose these two cases you see a broad culture that seems willing to punish people for being the victims of violent crime and yet is so sensitive that naming a bear Muhammed is construed as some sort of insult.  True, these things have happened in different countries and there is a cultural element involved as well (and I suspect something to do with the British and voting in Sudan), but it presents a general perception of Islam as an inconsistent, misogynistic, and brutal religio-culture.  It is a sad thing for the many millions of ordinary Moslems this denegrates.

This is supposedly the same religion that produced scientists who inspired Leonardo da Vinci and writers who wrote things like "One Thousand and One Nights".  I can hardly credit it at times.


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## newGuy12 (Nov 26, 2007)

arnisador said:


> This one stunned me. It's absolutely barbaric. I was surprised that I could still be surprised by this regime. It isn't the 21st century everywhere.



I don't think that there is any way that we in the West can understand these things.  Its just too much to fathom.  I will say that I am very glad that I am not subjected to this kind of culture.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 26, 2007)

And dont forget the Lina Joy case. Even in "moderate" Muslim countries, when sharia law enters into the mix this is what you get. 



> Lina Joy is a Malay convert from Islam to Christianity. Born Azlina Jailani in 1964[1] in Malaysia to Muslim parents, she converted at age 26. In 1998, she was baptized, and applied to have her conversion legally recognized by the Malaysian courts. Though her change of name was recognized in 1999 and so noted on her identity card, her change of religion was not (since it is without the Mahkamah Syariah[2] confirmation document); for this reason, she filed suit with the High Court in 1999, bypassing the Syariah Court (Islamic court). She later filed suit with the Federal Court in 2006.[3][4] Joy hopes to live openly as a Christian; she was forced to go into hiding by the publicity surrounding her case.[5]
> 
> In a majority verdict delivered on May 30, 2007, the Federal Court rejected her appeal.[6] Her appeal was dismissed 2-1 by Chief Justice Tun Ahmad Fairuz Sheikh Abdul Halim and Datuk Alauddin Mohd Sheriff. The ruling stated that "a person who wanted to renounce his/her religion must do so according to existing laws or practices of the particular religion. Only after the person has complied with the requirements and the authorities are satisfied that the person has apostatised, can she embrace Christianity.... In other words, a person cannot, at one's whims and fancies renounce or embrace a religion."[7]


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 26, 2007)

Malaysia does seem to have let the Syariah authorities run wild.  I have seen a news report of 'police' employed by the Syariah court raiding nightclubs and checking everyone's ID and chasing out or arresting any Moslems.  They took a Chinese couple to court, the Syariah Court, for kissing in public and they weren't even Moslems.  

We don't have many examples of Sharia law states but those we do have don't do it any favours.


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2007)

It seems that aklthough we can't understand the law involved in the Sudan teachers case we can understand the motives behind bringing it, a fellow teacher thought to be jealous or have a grudge against the school filed the complaint with the police, the children's parents and other teachers were happy with the bears name. The disgruntled teacher accused Ms Gibbons of making a likeness of Mohammed which is a serious crime there.
Singapore has draconian laws on everything, you can be heavily fined for not washing you hands after using a public toilet or arrested for spitting in public ( which I must admit I have sympathy with as it's disgusting and spreads TB), you can also be fined for smoking or carrying durians.... I wondered what they were until my instructor who has been to the far east said they are the most revolting disgusting smelling fruit in the world, hotels in Thailand ban them, he said they really should be banned everywhere.

I tend to think none of the cases mentioned in above cases is actually about religion itself. it's about power and people, men, using religious laws to dictate to people As in Hitler's Germany or any dictatorship there are people who will use laws to control and subdue the people.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 27, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I tend to think none of the cases mentioned in above cases is actually about religion itself. it's about power and people, men, using religious laws to dictate to people As in Hitler's Germany or any dictatorship there are people who will use laws to control and subdue the people.


 
I think you are exactly right about this.  The problem I see is that many of these people have so wrapped up their desire for power in religion that even they cannot tell where one ends and the other begins.


By the way, durian smells awful but it tastes pretty good.


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## CoryKS (Nov 27, 2007)

*deep breath*
wellIdon'tknowwhowearetojudgebecausetheBiblesaysweshouldstoneamanwholayswithamenstruatingwomansowe'reallequallybadright?sotheremoralcheckmate.
*release breath*


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## arnisador (Nov 27, 2007)

Well, possibly a moral checkmate in the religious texts...but not in the systems of law and govt. of the two countries (er, let's ignore waterboarding for the moment so I can pretend we have a strict moral highground).


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 27, 2007)

If one thinks that things like waterboarding (or worse) havent been going on in various forms for decades...if not more, than I think they are mistaken. Not that it makes it "right" now or then, but to think that things have suddenly gone to hell is a little knee jerk. In the larger picture, "western" justice systems have separated themselves from religious texts and settled on laws determined by and large through representative means. These countries that still base their systems on religious texts are a case study in why our founding fathers set up things the way they did. Religion as a "moral framework" is one thing "religion as legal system" is another.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 27, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> *deep breath*
> wellIdon'tknowwhowearetojudgebecausetheBiblesaysweshouldstoneamanwholayswithamenstruatingwomansowe'reallequallybadright?sotheremoralcheckmate.
> *release breath*


 
Old Testament ... New Testament ... Mosaic Law ... New Covenant ...

A lot of the misinterpreation of Christian beliefs comes from the simple ommission of realising that there is a major division in the ruling tenets of Christian faith between what came before Christ and what came after.  

Muddling the two (or even demarcating the two) doesn't make the issue under discussion any easier to swallow though.

It's about time that people all over the world stopped abrogating their moral choices to hypothetical invisible men in the sky (or earthly men who came up with a neat way of excusing their actions).

I'm ashamed to say that I'm extremely angry about this particular news story and it's just as well that I'm in a position of no authority as I've reached the end of my tether with being 'understanding' and 'accepting' of the 'quirks' of other nations faiths.

Now I hope that not too many would gainsay me here if I was to say that I'm generally regarded as having my head screwed-on right and am not normally given to extremist views?

So I likewise hope that this particular outburst will be ameliorated by my generally more liberal (English version) viewpoint when I say that a stern call should be going out from our embassy to what passes for government in the Sudan.  

That call should outline the fact that we're a few hundred years past this sort of religious mumbo-jumbo in the present world, admit that, yes, in centuries gone by, we too used Invisible Sky-Gods to excuse all kinds of things but now, here in the 21st century, we have nuclear weapons and you do not.  

Hmmm, sorry, that sounded a bit like a militarist posture didn't it?  What can we do to rectify that?  

Oh, I know, you can release a British citizen you're holding for ridiculous reasons whilst pandering to a fanatical interpretation of a religion that has no place in a rational universe.

My apologies to all but like I said, my tolerance sump seems to have reached capacity with this one.  It's so bad and out-of-character for me that I don't even care if there's a hidden background to the story that we haven't heard yet.  It's probably because I'm just old enough to recall tales of the times when being the holder of a British passport meant that you had a certain degree of protection from this kind of tin-pot-dictatorship.

ROFL at my own indignation ... I can't even decide which 'message icon' is appropriate to my "Disgusted of Hemel Hempsted" teeth-gnashing :O.


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## Ceicei (Nov 27, 2007)

This came from today's article on ABC news.  Below are some excerpts from the article:



> A 7-year-old Sudanese student on Tuesday defended the British teacher accused of insulting Islam saying he had chosen to call a teddy bear Mohammad because it was his own name.





> "The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy," the boy said shyly, his voice barely rising above a whisper. "I said Mohammad. I named it after my name," he added.





> He said he was not thinking of Islam's Prophet when asked to suggest a name, adding most of the class agreed with his choice.





> "I'm annoyed ... that this has escalated in this way," his mother said. "If it happened as Mohammad said there is no problem here - it was not intended."



What is the chance or likelihood of the Sudanese authorities listening to this student?

- Ceicei


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## Ray (Nov 27, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> wellIdon'tknowwhowearetojudgebecausetheBiblesaysweshouldstoneamanwholayswithamenstruatingwomansowe'reallequallybadright?


Can you let me know where it says that.  All I've been able to find is that the man is ritually impure for 7 days.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 27, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> It's about time that people all over the world stopped abrogating their moral choices to hypothetical invisible men in the sky (or earthly men who came up with a neat way of excusing their actions).


 
Preaching to the choir in my case my friend.





Sukerkin said:


> I'm ashamed to say that I'm extremely angry about this particular news story and it's just as well that I'm in a position of no authority as I've reached the end of my tether with being 'understanding' and 'accepting' of the 'quirks' of other nations faiths.


 
I don't think you have anything to be angry about.  There is only so much understanding that can be done of frankly incomprehensible features of senile religions and cultures. 

Interesting term that, "... at the end of my tether ..." it suggests a point will be reached at wich things will snap back.





Sukerkin said:


> Now I hope that not too many would gainsay me here if I was to say that I'm generally regarded as having my head screwed-on right and am not normally given to extremist views?
> 
> So I likewise hope that this particular outburst will be ameliorated by my generally more liberal (English version) viewpoint when I say that a stern call should be going out from our embassy to what passes for government in the Sudan.


 
Head screwed on?  OK, well most of the time .  It is when people who are of a generally more liberal (I know what you mean) viewpoint get so annoyed that you know something is really not right.





Sukerkin said:


> My apologies to all but like I said, my tolerance sump seems to have reached capacity with this one. It's so bad and out-of-character for me that I don't even care if there's a hidden background to the story that we haven't heard yet. It's probably because I'm just old enough to recall tales of the times when being the holder of a British passport meant that you had a certain degree of protection from this kind of tin-pot-dictatorship.


 
It is getting, or perhaps has gotten, beyond the point at which one can really hide one's contempt.  Many cultures, and pretty much all religions, have gone so far beyond their usefulness as to now be an obstruction to almost everything.  

Unfortunately people will cling to these archaic and unreasoning features without any thought about them in some strange effort to maintain the distinctiveness of their culture or religion.  

When there is no cultural evolution then intolerance is not far away.


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## CoryKS (Nov 28, 2007)

Ray said:


> Can you let me know where it says that. All I've been able to find is that the man is ritually impure for 7 days.


 
Probably doesn't.  I was spoofing on the fact that every time a new atrocity is committed by the followers of HappyFunPeace, it's only a matter of time until someone hits the macro to send a post pointing out that, since "our" text has all those horrible rules in it that nobody has acted on in hundreds of years, we shouldn't be making judgement calls.


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## Ceicei (Nov 28, 2007)

It is official.  The Sudanese authorities decided to *formally charge* her according to this article:



> *LONDON, England (CNN) * -- A British teacher arrested in Sudan after allowing her class to name a teddy bear "Mohammed" has been charged by authorities with offending religion, state-run media in Sudan report.


The authorities say that the teacher is insulting Islam by using a teddy bear's name in the likeness of the Prophet's name.

They decided even though another article quoting a seven year old student as saying:


> "The teacher asked me what I wanted to call the teddy," the boy said shyly, his voice barely rising above a whisper. "I said Mohammad. I named it after my name," he added.



I am incredulous that they decided to formally charge the teacher anyway, even though the student in the class explained his reasoning for naming the teddy bear.  The bear was never named by the children in intent as blasphemy to their Prophet after all.

- Ceicei


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## newGuy12 (Nov 28, 2007)

Well, at least the French seem to have it all under control in their country.


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## Ceicei (Nov 28, 2007)

Update from ABC news (third page of the main article) on what the Sudanese leadership say:


> The Sudanese clerics said this was blasphemy and believed it was intentional.
> 
> "What has happened was not haphazard or carried out of ignorance, but rather a calculated action and another ring in the circles of plotting against Islam," the Sudanese Assembly of the Ulemas said the statement.
> 
> ...


:idunno:  


Tez3 appears to hold the the correct observation with her earlier post upthread about her premise that this whole issue is regarding power.


Tez3 said:


> It's about power and people, men, using religious laws to dictate to people As in Hitler's Germany or any dictatorship there are people who will use laws to control and subdue the people.



- Ceicei


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## theletch1 (Nov 28, 2007)

Certainly, it's about power...the power of fear.  Toe the line, and we mean TOE THE LINE or else.  Unfortunately, I don't feel it's only in dictatorships that the laws are used to control and subdue people.  To an extent that's what laws are designed to do...just not to the extreme that we're seeing here.  They are meant to control and subdue mankinds baser acts against his fellow man.  

Sukerkin, I think I understand where you are, mentally, with the world situation.  To put it into words, though, for me just isn't going to come very easily without getting me booted from the board.  I don't have your eloquence and as an American trucker I'd blow the profanity filter clear out of the server.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 28, 2007)

CoryKS said:


> Probably doesn't. I was spoofing on the fact that every time a new atrocity is committed by the followers of HappyFunPeace, it's only a matter of time until someone hits the macro to send a post pointing out that, *since "our" text has all those horrible rules in it that nobody has acted on in hundreds of years, *we shouldn't be making judgement calls.


 
This is exactly where the problem lies.  Europe and America went through a long period in which the strictures layed down in the Bible were considered as the law of the land.  All it did was make the clergy richer and kill a lot of people who didn't conform.  The Islamic world is still in the midst of a similar ecclesiastic control, it seems.

Its not so much about the different rules layed down in different books, so much as it is about the men, and I emphasise men, who choose to hide behind them and exploit them for their own benefit.  It doesn't matter what flavour of religion it is, there will always be a problem when someone chooses to uses the written word to control others (the Bible, the Qur'an, Mein Kampf, Mao's Little Red Book).  It becomes dogma and so nobody thinks about it anymore.





Ceicei said:


> It is official. The Sudanese authorities decided to *formally charge* her according to this article:
> 
> 
> The authorities say that the teacher is insulting Islam by using a teddy bear's name in the likeness of the Prophet's name.
> ...


 
Its very hard to take seriously people who consider the naming of a bear part of the world wide plot against Islam, but then, through their influence, this woman may end up suffering 40 lashes.

There are some very nasty undercurrents involved here.  One that was brought home to me last night is the position, or perceived position, of women in Islam.  I understand the initial complaint against the teacher in Sudan was made by another teacher.  Was this teacher a man?  I don't currently know.  On the news last night I saw a group of women in Pakistan who were preparing for a protest march (I'm not sure what it was about, but they were certainly unhappy with the Mullahs) and a group of men, some were Mullahs, some their followers and students, were seeking to stop the march because, in their opinion, it was immoral.

We have just had an election and now we have a new government, but the leaders of the party formerly in government have stepped down saying it is time to let the younger members guide the party.  There is something of this in reverse going through the Islamic world.  Young Moslems want to live by thier own interpretations and perspectives of what Islam is, especially in Iran and Pakistan.  It is possible that these incredible reactionary stances we keep seeing from the Islamic world are attempts by the old established regime to maintain control.


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## seninoniwashi (Nov 28, 2007)

Absolutely ridiculous! The kids are seven years old; it was a teddy bear that was given the name, not a pig in a barnyard. Per the article, it was the kids that decided on the name.

 and to threaten her with lashes when she has caused harm to none and to hold her to in contempt of a religion she doesnt even believe in when shes from a completely different culture and just came over to help. I cant believe the intolerance... its blood boiling.


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## Ray (Nov 28, 2007)

I sense some ethnocentricity here, some intolerance of another culture.

But I feel the way many previous posters feel - but that IS the culture.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 28, 2007)

But the "offender" is not of the culture.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 28, 2007)

Ray said:


> I sense some ethnocentricity here, some intolerance of another culture.
> 
> But I feel the way many previous posters feel - but that IS the culture.


 
Its not so much intolerance of the culture, though I think there is some of that too, it is intolerance of the people who are unwilling to accept that this was not done as an intended slight to their beliefs. 

What I think we are really seeing here is the bold-faced application of a misogynistic worldview to an 'uppity' woman.


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## kaizasosei (Nov 29, 2007)

yeah, bottom line is the world is a dangerous place.  
  who knows what else we dont know about this story.  the culture is very different, perhaps there was some extreme cases of culture shock. 
  however, when people and societies(certain islamic ones) are that ignorant, hateful and destructive, it's feels futile wasting more words on the issue.  although some things can be sorted out by talking.  some things can only be sorted out by action.  ones belief can obviously also be considered a kind of action.  
 keeping in mind some of the muslim world are still braving the 1300s, their current actions, will nevertheless not go unheard of.  that is why it is a sad story in which all honour for religion is lost to the threat of a teddybear.
  why are monotheists sometimes so aggressive.  it seems to me that they rather have a one god because he is much easier to forget and easier to play out.  
i too believe in one single force of goodness or one creator or creative force, but that doesnt prevent me from understanding my own conciousness through personification and various projections.  
 i condemn these flaky monotheists and their evil lipy thing they call a god.
here, i, believing in the one single power of truth.  believing in the one holy god of which there is no other, i pray that this faith be changed into a polytheistic one.  that should be the way how to make things understood. 
god will teach them not to mess with a teddy.

i hope they sink into a disorganized polytheistic mess, that would be still better than being a peoples that follow a god that is exclusive and unjust. 
actions speak louder than words.



j


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## Sukerkin (Nov 29, 2007)

It would seem that at least our 'local' Muslim community knows to an extent where the 'line of reason' is:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7118245.stm

I'm pleased to read this, even if it is in some part an excercising themselves from an incident they know is going to taint the public view of their faith even more than it already is.


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## theletch1 (Nov 29, 2007)

From the article linked by Sukerkin:

*Chairman Massoud Shadjareh said: "Both the Sudanese government and the media must refrain from using Islam and Islamic principles to legitimise this fiasco, which may result in the unjust conviction of an innocent person, and which will only lead to the promotion of Islamophobia and further demonisation of Islam." **And a spokesman for the Muslim youth organisation, the Ramadhan Foundation, said "this matter is not worthy of arrest or detention and her continued detention will not help repair the misconceptions about Islam."* 

I hope that this particular train of thought catches on elsewhere.  As it stands now, the extremist that use the Islamic faith as an excuse for atrocities are creating an image of Islam that can only lead to more bloodshed.  It's time the everyday Muslim stand up and say "Stop this.  This is not what Islam is and we will not tolerate the hi-jacking of our religion anymore."


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## CoryKS (Nov 29, 2007)

It's interesting to note what the IHRC considers a "hijacking of their religion".  Apparently, subsidizing a campaign of genocide and rape is okay but flogging a teacher?  Well, you've just stepped over the line there, buddy.


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## CoryKS (Nov 29, 2007)

The teacher was tried and found guilty.  Her sentence will be 15 days in jail and deportation.  Having never been in a Sudanese jail, I couldn't guess whether this is a lenient sentence or not.


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## Ceicei (Nov 30, 2007)

Further development of this story on CNN:


> *KHARTOUM, Sudan (CNN)* -- Hundreds of angry protesters, some waving ceremonial swords from trucks equipped with loud speakers, gathered Friday outside the presidential palace to denounce a teacher whose class named a teddy bear "Mohammed" -- some calling for her execution.
> 
> The protesters, which witnesses said numbered close to 1,000, swore to fight in the name of their prophet.





> In leaflets distributed earlier this week by Muslim groups, the protesters promised a "popular release of anger" at Friday's protests.
> The leaflets condemned Gibbons as an "infidel" and accused her of "the pollution of children's mentality" by her actions.


From ABCnews:


> "This an arrogant woman who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad," he said.


From CBSnews:


> But an office assistant at the school, Sara Khawad, complained to the Ministry of Education that Gibbons had insulted the prophet. Khawad testified at Thursday's trial, chief defense lawyer Kamal Djizouri said.
> 
> Khawad "was doing this out of revenge against the administration," Djizouri said. He did not elaborate. But the director of the school's Parent-Teacher Association, Isam Abu Hasabu, claimed Khawad had argued with the principal before the incident.
> 
> Comparing the Prophet Muhammad - Islam's most revered figure - to an animal or a toy could be insulting to Muslims. But Boulos said that, contrary to earlier reports, no parents had complained.



Very sad, very sad indeed.

- Ceicei


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## newGuy12 (Nov 30, 2007)

I have great sympathy for Gibbons, the teacher.  She (and a lot of others) were caught off guard by this.

But, this should serve as a clear warning to all others, to GET OUT of countries that are ruled by this Sharia law NOW and not go back!

There are protests now calling for her death.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 30, 2007)

Did I mention we had nukes and they do not?  

I despair sometimes of the insanity that people can delve down to when they think their non-existent invisible guy will forgive whatever they do.

We need to carpet-bomb the Sudan with copies of "The Prince" I think, maybe they'll get a clue - here's a link to get them started http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm.

Maybe we can develop space-flight technology enough to ship them off somewhere else where they can be loony without bothering anyone else?  

After all it worked for Grayson for a while ... then the nukes had to come out anyhow but still ... {that was an Honor Harrington reference for people who are now scratching their heads :lol:}.

I deeply fear that on top the New Crusade the Bush administration and it's puppeteers has worked to manufacture, this sort of idiocy can only end in tears and blood - as I've said before, the New Dark Age looms courtesy of Western technology and Eastern medieval religiosity.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 30, 2007)

Ray said:


> Can you let me know where it says that. All I've been able to find is that the man is ritually impure for 7 days.


 
Who the **** cares?  I mean really, anyone who takes the bible as a literal guide for their religion is not only uneducated about their religion, but is also uneducated about how homo sapians evolved.  

The very syncreticism that the bible exihibits is a is a form of evolution!


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## That One Guy (Dec 2, 2007)

if you look at the history of human civilization, you'll notice that every major organized religion has gone through a phase of psychotic intolerance. It just so happens that it's Islams turn for the last century (ish). Next century will probably be the Jews (they've gotta have a pretty big bone to pick with the rest of the world by now).

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank organized religion for such wonderful moments in the last 5000 years as: The inquisition, the crusades, the dark ages in their entirety come to think of it, the witch burnings in Europe and new england, the molestation of untold numbers of hapless alter-boys, the 700 club(vomit) and oh yeah, lets not forget about the latest wave of Islamic jihad.


move along sheep-ple.


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## Kacey (Dec 2, 2007)

That One Guy said:


> Next century will probably be the Jews (they've gotta have a pretty big bone to pick with the rest of the world by now).



Uh... I'm Jewish, and I don't have a bone to pick with the rest of the world - nor do I appreciate being lumped in with some of the more fanatical practitioners of my religion, any more than Islamic moderates appreciate being lumped in with the more fanatical practitioners of their religion.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 2, 2007)

Aye, stereotypes are useful tools for categorising but dangerous ones for analysing.  His core point is still valid tho' i.e. that cultures and religions go through cycles of ascendency, decline and belligerence.

We had ours and it's pleasant to think that the current 'aggressive' faith (ironic as that is for many muslims) would've learned from our mistakes - sadly, humankind doesn't work that way it seems .


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## Kacey (Dec 2, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Aye, stereotypes are useful tools for categorising but dangerous ones for analysing.  His core point is still valid tho' i.e. that cultures and religions go through cycles of ascendency, decline and belligerence.



I don't dispute the cyclical nature of culture; however, I do dislike being categorized by one facet of my cultural background as much as any other member of a particular cultural group.  As you say, analysis based on such stereotyping is dangerous - I think that using such stereotypes for categorization is also dangerous, as it causes people to overlook anything that does not fit the stereotype, for both good and bad.



Sukerkin said:


> We had ours and it's pleasant to think that the current 'aggressive' faith (ironic as that is for many muslims) would've learned from our mistakes - sadly, humankind doesn't work that way it seems .



Sadly, no... which brings us back to a group of young children who, apparently in all innocence, named a teddy bear for one of their number, leading to the arrest and punishment of the teacher who, based on just such categorization, must (in the opinion of the Sudanese government) have been deliberately, with malicious forethought, _intending_ to be disrespectful to the Islamic religion - whether that was her intent or not appears to have been totally ignored in the aftermath.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 2, 2007)

Kacey said:


> As you say, analysis based on such stereotyping is dangerous - I think that using such stereotypes for categorization is also dangerous, as it causes people to overlook anything that does not fit the stereotype, for both good and bad.


 
No argument from me - I concur that such a simple aphorism cannot encapsulate the whole when it comes to sociological study.  I was just being hastily brief in attempting to defuse any inadvertent offense the previous poster may have caused.


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## Steel Tiger (Dec 2, 2007)

Islam in Africa is a truly unpleasant thing. Take a religion with very specific views on such things as intolerance and the position of women and combine it with the tribal cultural beliefs of Africa. The result? A staggering ability to be insulted by the smallest remark, a double, reinforced mistrust and contempt for women, and an intolerance which boarders on being a psychosis.

With this situation it is becoming more and more obvious that it is not about religion, that is merely the mechanism that is being employed.

When you get things like this (thanks Ceicei for posting them):



> In leaflets distributed earlier this week by Muslim groups, the protesters promised a "popular release of anger" at Friday's protests.
> The leaflets condemned Gibbons as an* "infidel"* and accused her of *"the pollution of children's mentality" *by her actions.


 


> "This *an arrogant woman* who came to our country, cashing her salary in dollars, *teaching our children hatred of our Prophet Muhammad*," he said.


 


> But an office assistant at the school, Sara Khawad, complained to the Ministry of Education that Gibbons had insulted the prophet. Khawad testified at Thursday's trial, chief defense lawyer Kamal Djizouri said.
> 
> *Khawad "was doing this out of revenge against the administration," Djizouri said.* He did not elaborate. But the director of the school's Parent-Teacher Association, Isam Abu Hasabu, claimed Khawad had argued with the principal before the incident.
> 
> Comparing the Prophet Muhammad - Islam's most revered figure - to an animal or a toy could be insulting to Muslims. *But Boulos said that, contrary to earlier reports, no parents had complained*.


 

It becomes apparent that something other than the defence of religion is occurring.


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## Big Don (Dec 2, 2007)

Mohammad is the most popular boy's name in the world, should all the parents of boys named Mohammad be imprisoned, whipped or killed?


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## Big Don (Dec 3, 2007)

Financial Times and Reuters are reporting that Sudan has pardoned Ms Gibbons. While this is a good result. I don't see it calming those who were chanting for her death...
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/7bb0f360-a178-11dc-a13b-0000779fd2ac.html


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## CoryKS (Dec 3, 2007)

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2007/12/sudan-pardons-teddy-bear-teacher.html

I think this guy got it right.  This is another case where they gin up some ridiculous accusation with a harsh penalty so they can look beneficent when they drop the charges.


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## Steel Tiger (Dec 3, 2007)

I am very glad to hear Ms Gibbons was freed but the circumstances are still appalling.  The Council of Muslim Scholars is still claiming this will harm Khartoum's image in the Islamic world.  It's not a nice thing to see someone so poorly treated, apologising for offending the Sudanese people.

Well this will now disappear from the news and be forgotten about, but the essential problem remains.  There are many in the Islamic world who are taking advantage of this current atmosphere of trying not to offend anyone by being offended by anything and everything and then screaming for blood.  

It is interesting that no one has apologised to Ms Gibbons for her treatment, but then again she is a prophet-hating infidel who deserves no respect or consideration.


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## Ceicei (Dec 3, 2007)

I read today's article from CNN and there was one small paragraph that caught my attention.



> Meanwhile it was revealed on Monday that a disgruntled former employee alerted Sudanese officials about the case in an effort to shut down Unity High School.



Interesting.  It looks like the one who made the initial report (Sara Khawad) is no longer an employee at the school.   It is possible the school may have fired her.  I wonder if she had thought her action would lead to such an international event?  Is just firing her enough of a lesson?

- Ceicei


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## Steel Tiger (Dec 3, 2007)

Ceicei said:


> I read today's article from CNN and there was one small paragraph that caught my attention.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I fear that people who are that small-minded and petty will never get it, no matter how harsh a penalty is applied.


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## Tez3 (Dec 3, 2007)

Ten minutes ago at ten o'clock (night) London time the BBC news said Ms Gibbons had arrived safely in Dubai and would be arriving at Heathrow in the morning. she was reported as being in good spirits and amazed at the amount of attention she had received.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 3, 2007)

Glad to know that she got out of this morass unscathed.  A brisk lesson in the effects of nuclear energy is clearly no longer required, altho' education in what constitutes a 21st rather than a 14th century mindset may well be.

I may not be so lucky, however.  

Whilst I shall certainly not be faced with loonies on the streets (paved wth our money by the way) braying for my execution, certain comments I have unknowingly made in the hearing of those of the Muslim persuasion at work, with regard to the idiocy of such behaviour, have been made note of.

There is no god higher than HR, lest anyone forget.


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## grydth (Dec 3, 2007)

The ultimate losers in all this? Kids like the ones in this woman's class. Celebrities are on a campaign to draw attention to the genuinely awful situation faced by regular folks in the region. They say it is being ignored..... and it will be. Totally. 

So now who's going to volunteer to go help? Who's going to send $20, figuring it will go to the drooling cleric judges or the cannibal mobs in the street?

There's no shortage of other charities or disaster areas in this world to send volunteers, supplies and foreign aid to.

The sentence you read about was one on a harmless and good woman. The sentence you won't read about is the sentence on 10,000 kids - death by starvation.


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## newGuy12 (Dec 3, 2007)

grydth said:


> There's no shortage of other charities or disaster areas in this world to send volunteers, supplies and foreign aid to.



True.  And some will not act so violently at the drop of a hat.  Time to move on, I'd say.


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