# ...time to reconsider some techniques?



## fenglong (Feb 11, 2012)




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## WingChunIan (Feb 11, 2012)

some of those attacks would test most defences. Does go to show that trying to wrestle / restrain a guy with a knife if futile. Turning his lights out fast is the only realistic option. In the clip where the guy was bent over basically holding on with one hand and blocking with the other, he survived for a while if only he'd let go of his hold and smacked the guy whilst he blocked he might have prevailed. Being realistic, someone comes at you like in many of the clips then you've got to face reality and expect to get hurt.


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## WC_lun (Feb 11, 2012)

1st rule of realistic knife defense.  You are going to get cut.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 11, 2012)

I am no expert.  However, from the appearance of many of those videos, the stabbings were done as a form of an uppercut to the body, thrown underhanded and repeated over and over again to the victim's midsection.  One would normally do whatever one could to keep away from the knife and thus, the knife arm.  But it would appear that the appropriate defense in such a case would be to attack and immobilize the knife arm as quickly as possible, rather than blocking as one might a punch or a kick.  Lock onto the hand holding the blade and immobilize, trap, or cause a release would seem to be most appropriate.

Some of the other attacks were more 'cutting' than stabbing, such as the throat slashing and the person waving the knife around like a sword.

Those stabbings very much resembled videos of prison knifings (shanking) I have seen; the difference only being that the prison shankings are primarily done from behind and into vital organs by people who have studied anatomy enough to know where they are.  They are hard to combat.

Thoughts?


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## Cyriacus (Feb 11, 2012)

I dont see what this changes - Unless certain Organisations have some silly ideas about Knife Defense.
Grabbing the Knife Wielding Limb is still a Good Idea so long as You plan on using that as a chance to Strike.
Dodging is still a Good Idea.
And its still completely possible to prevail.

I cant help but think it would have been easy to Grab His Forearm, then start throwing Punches.
Instead He tried to Grab with both Hands.


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## Big Don (Feb 11, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> 1st rule of realistic knife defense.  You are going to get cut.


2d rule: It is going to hurt

My Sifu's description of all training injuries...


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 12, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I dont see what this changes - Unless certain Organisations have some silly ideas about Knife Defense.
> Grabbing the Knife Wielding Limb is still a Good Idea so long as You plan on using that as a chance to Strike.
> Dodging is still a Good Idea.
> And its still completely possible to prevail.
> ...



Could you describe how you immobilize a person's arm in such a fashion with only one hand?  I'm a little unclear on that.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html


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## frank raud (Feb 12, 2012)

What techniques would you like to re consider? A video showing untrained people being attacked is not much to go on, in reference to possible techniques. Do real life attacks not look as clean and crisp as in the dojo? Yep. Do you see anyone in those video clips who appears to ave trained in knife defense?


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## Cyriacus (Feb 12, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Could you describe how you immobilize a person's arm in such a fashion with only one hand?  I'm a little unclear on that.
> 
> http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifelies.html


Not Immobilise - That was a poor choice of words if I used it.
I more mean, redirect. Even if Youre not redirecting it.
Keeping it from moving towards you, either by moving it to the side slightly, or moving yourself to the side, whilst operating with your other hand, or another limb, or somesuch.
As a random example off the top of my head, bearing in mind it is rather late at night and this may come out a bit unusually, so feel free to rephrase some parts if they dont make grammatical sense; from any frontal, be it straight, upward, or downward or anywere in between stabbing action, 

_EDIT: I just trimmed out a whole ton of useless information that I then went on to explain 10x better below. I really need to keep explanations simpler._

Simply: Block with the opposite hand to the side you see the knife on pushing away with the palm of your hand, if possible get a punch or push in, then try and get out of the situation altogether.
Moving to the side and moving to the side and back shouldnt be too different, as a persons arms are only so long, and a Knife is at the end of that arm. They need to be close enough to stab You, as this Video more or less supports.
For that matter, this method would probably work fine based on the Scenario in the Video, since the attacker was seen coming well in advance to the attack. Long enough to perceive the threat, as the victim to some degree at least did.

Now feel free to inevitably pick out the parts of this ill have to rephrase;
Or, maybe nothing will be. Who knows.

Also, one other Lie to add to that list would be that Knives make You an ultimate supreme killing machine 

_EDIT:
I cant help but think trying to get at least one blow is safer all round, since just running right away could well lead to being stabbed in the side or back whilst you make such an attempt, as the attacker is already attacking. If Theyre struck, theres an interruption at least, preventing them from just immediately stabbing again, probably whilst moving forward if they see you trying to get away.

^^A bit of what I edited out, which is probably somewhat useful for explanatives._


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 12, 2012)

I think I understand; get the knife away from you and get around behind it.  Hit the bad guy.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 12, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think I understand; get the knife away from you and get around behind it.  Hit the bad guy.


Yeah, pretty much. Im had the most trouble explaining the Palm Block/Push/Grab - I can get back to You on that tomorrow in the morning if You want


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 12, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Yeah, pretty much. Im had the most trouble explaining the Palm Block/Push/Grab - I can get back to You on that tomorrow in the morning if You want



No, I get it.  We have a kata with that move in it, Kusanku.

While it might not be applied in this manner, in Kusanku, we step back into a cat stance, draping the left hand palm up over the leading thigh (sometimes called "dragon's tongue"). Then set the heel down, step over with the right leg while pushing with the left hand and turning the palm over.  Followed by a nukite (knife hand) to the throat with the right hand.

[video=youtube_share;0I4mxX_4RUs]http://youtu.be/0I4mxX_4RUs[/video]

1:16 to 1:18 in this video.  It's not really obvious, but I think it describes the motion you are talking about.  Let me know if I'm on the wrong track.


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## David43515 (Feb 12, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think I understand; get the knife away from you and get around behind it. Hit the bad guy.



Mark Denny at Dog Brothers has some really good material on this subject that focuses on just those things. It`s available in a DVD of a seminar he did with Gabe Suarez called "Die Less Often". It covers a 2 day seminar they did working specifically on these stabs and slashes coming in fast and often from the strong side.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 13, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No, I get it.  We have a kata with that move in it, Kusanku.
> 
> While it might not be applied in this manner, in Kusanku, we step back into a cat stance, draping the left hand palm up over the leading thigh (sometimes called "dragon's tongue"). Then set the heel down, step over with the right leg while pushing with the left hand and turning the palm over.  Followed by a nukite (knife hand) to the throat with the right hand.
> 
> ...


Youre right - Its not obvious 
But that seems like an akin logic - Not quite how Id do it, but.
Now that Im less asleep, ill try this:
From, lets say, a Cat Stance, with the Hands as He has them and whatnot;
Block with the Right Hand whilst stepping out and forward (Not very far. Just, out. Like, a Cat Stance length out, except not in a Cat Stance) with the Right Food, Punch with the Left Hand, keeping the Right Hand on wherever it hit. Optimally this should be a grab, but even if it gets your hand impaled, the point I suppose is to prevent the knife from being redirected towards your new position.

I feel theres less risk of getting your hand cut, since whilst using the left would be faster, its also on the Knifes route. Plus, the Right Hand can be the same block for any height, just being adjusted as needed.

The rest would be situational. If You can just run off from there, by all means. That said, You might follow up with more strikes if the first one was effective. It only needs to be damaging - Not engagement ending. Just enough to not get stabbed whilst you take off - As I detailed in Edit 2.


Now, that said, the movement shown in the Kata is, in many ways, the same. I just like to step out and forward instead of straight forward, and prefer blocking with the more distant hand, to make the Counter more reliable. And Id favor a Punch over a Knife Hand.
That said, I didnt overlook where You said it wasnt used in that manner 

EDIT: For simplicity; Think same thing, but with the hands swapped, and stepping out and forward.


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am no expert.  However, from the appearance of many of those videos, the stabbings were done as a form of an uppercut to the body, thrown underhanded and repeated over and over again to the victim's midsection.  One would normally do whatever one could to keep away from the knife and thus, the knife arm.  *But it would appear that the appropriate defense in such a case would be to attack and immobilize the knife arm as quickly as possible, rather than blocking as one might a punch or a kick.  Lock onto the hand holding the blade and immobilize, trap, or cause a release would seem to be most appropriate.*
> 
> Some of the other attacks were more 'cutting' than stabbing, such as the throat slashing and the person waving the knife around like a sword.
> 
> ...



Agreed with everything here, especially the bold.  IMHO, this is why I feel that scenario training is very important.  Think about it...the majority of times when a knife defense is done, a) both parties know what type of attack is coming, and b) the knife is already visable.  Now, initially, theres nothing wrong with this.  However, there comes a time when unrehearsed, unknown attacks, have to be worked.  

But yeah, I like the idea of controlling the arm first, then working for the other stuff.


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I dont see what this changes - Unless certain Organisations have some silly ideas about Knife Defense.
> Grabbing the Knife Wielding Limb is still a Good Idea so long as You plan on using that as a chance to Strike.
> Dodging is still a Good Idea.
> And its still completely possible to prevail.
> ...



I've seen techs that had a grab, some that had a grab and immediate counter shots, and some that had a strong, solid grab, would take the badguy off balance and then start working counter shots, disarms, etc.


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2012)

David43515 said:


> Mark Denny at Dog Brothers has some really good material on this subject that focuses on just those things. It`s available in a DVD of a seminar he did with Gabe Suarez called "Die Less Often". It covers a 2 day seminar they did working specifically on these stabs and slashes coming in fast and often from the strong side.



I've seen some of the DLO clips on youtube.  I liked what I saw.  I've been tempted to buy the dvds, but havent.  Have you seen them?  If so, I'd be interested in your thoughts on them.


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## mook jong man (Feb 13, 2012)

One of the big difficulties in defending against the type of attacks seen in the videos is that the knifeman is using his lead arm to grab the victim or uses it as a barrier to keep the victim at bay as he pistons the knife back and forth  from his rear arm
Consequently the victim is in range to be stabbed , but can't really get in close enough to get a good tight two handed control on the knifeman's weapon arm.

Any defence needs to address the problem of getting that front arm out of the way first so that the defender can get in close and get a good capture of the knife arm.

Normally with the knife arm forward I prefer to use a two arm block and then capture with double under hooks and then start firing knee strikes into the groin and quads.

But with the knifeman using that free arm as a barrier it definitely presents a huge problem in trying to get in and gain control of the knife arm.

You might be able to to do a low heel kick into his lead shin and that could cause enough pain/distraction so you can get in that way , but probably easier said than done if your being jostled and trying to block the knife arm at the same time.

A very difficult situation any way you look at it , all I can suggest is that you use the edge of your hand/forearm to block as hard as you can on his forearm , you might get lucky and shock his arm enough to cause him to drop the knife.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 13, 2012)

I'm looking at the footage again and again and in the first several clips, I notice the same things.  From what I've been able to Google, it appears that this method is often called the 'prison rush'.

The attacker comes from an oblique angle to the victim, rather than head on.  Often from the victim's left front (I understand that prison shankings often come from the rear, but these are frontal attacks).

The attacker comes in on a run after holding distance for a short period of time.

The attacker is low, sometimes almost doubled over.

The knife is either hidden from the victim's view or carried very close to the attacker's body, so there is no silhouette of a knife blade.

The attacker engages the victim using a strike that is close to a tackle.  The blade is aimed for the midsection, the motion is stabbing rather than slashing, the attacker uses his free arm as a bumper or barrier to keep his knife hand from being grabbed (or even well seen), and the thrusts are vicious and repeated as fast as possible.  I counted something like 20 thrusts in under 2 seconds on one.

The motion of the attacker's knife arm is not unlike a boxer's uppercut to the body.

http://www.myboxingcoach.com/boxing-how-to-guide-2/

The difference is, a boxer taking a body punch like that defends by dropping his elbows to protect his midsection; it's understood that he's going to take some damage to his midsection, but can withstand it due to training and conditioning.  He's more concerned about damage over the length of the fight, not immediate damage that causes him to bleed out and drop to the floor.

A knife victim taking even one stab wound to the abdomen is likely to be in severe pain, bleeding profusely, and is certainly not going to be able to absorb multiple stab wounds to the abdomen without bleeding out quickly.  And if he drops his elbows to protect his abdomen, the next stab attack may come to his head or neck, as the attacker simply moves his underhanded uppercut to a right cross motion.

From the speed of the thrust, it almost appears impossible to engage that knife hand and trap it or lock it.  I can't see a block as being effective, especially if taking repeated powerful thrusting stab wounds.

One of the links I posted yesterday said something that resonated with me; this is not a fight; this is warfare.  The attacker is not going to stand toe-to-toe with you and duke it out, or wait for you to draw your gun or knife or get into a fighting stance.  They are trying to kill you, now, immediately, and they won't give you even a second to take a deep breath, let alone draw a weapon.

If you block the attacking knife thrust, you may take it in the arm or knee or whatever you used to block with.  And it is immediately withdrawn and the stabbing thrust is engaged again, over and over.  I do not think you can take multiple stab wounds to the arm or knees or upper thighs and still keep blocking; like I said, I counted 20 stabbing thrusts in 2 seconds on at least one of those attacks.  I am not sure you'd be able to perform a lock or a trap on that thrusting arm either; as others have noted on this thread, the attacker has that free hand out as a block, bludgeon, and entangling device of a sort.  The victim might also find himself covered in his own blood; and I do have some experience with blood; it's very slippery.

From what little I am gathering, as I puzzle over this, the attack most reminds me of the attack of a Great White Shark.  Minor circling outside the perimeter of the prey's senses or ability to defend, then a straight-line, very fast, very powerful attack, with the weapon only becoming evident in the last moment before the impact. It's really hard to engage with that, hard to defend against.

Again, from one of the links I posted yesterday, I read what appears to be some good advice; run away.  Do not let yourself be cornered (and there are lots of ways a martial artist can train to get out of corners), and go as fast as you can away from the threat.

The other response I read about that makes sense if simply running away won't work, is to do whatever you can to get around the blade.  Push the attacker's arm laterally and spin or step past him, get that arm (and the repeated thrusts) pointing somewhere other than at your gut.  Once behind the attacker or to the side of his arm, do whatever you can to disable the attacker immediately.  The link I read seems to believe strongly in driving the attacker's head into the pavement, which seems it would be rather effective if you could get them down on the ground.

So I now doubt my initial assessment.  Grabbing or trapping the incoming arm that holds the blade simply may not work.  Deflecting the arm and getting around it might.

However, I have engaged in precisely one struggle for a knife with an angry man in my life, and it was nothing more than a wrestling match in the end; with multiple military police (including me) rolling around on the sand with one drunken Marine armed with a bayonet.  I was not rushed by someone intent on murdering me with a knife.  So my thoughts on this are just this; thoughts.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 13, 2012)

When I was taught Hapkido, we were taught at the red belt level, several knife defenses. They included defenses against downward stabs, inside to outside slashes, outside to inside slashes, and straight thrusts. As with most Hapkido techniques I was taught, they require great speed and accuracy, as you will be moving in close to your opponent. Most of the videos seem to show an unexpected attack. Whether knife or punch or kick, that is always hardest to defend; the sudden unprovoked attack. Properly done however, all the defenses are very effective and most are devastating to the opponent. The problem of course, is in getting them propertly done.

One thing to consider is if the non-knife hand is presented to you, we would consider it fair game for being grappled and force applied in such a way that the knife bearing hand can't get to you. Stepping to the side is a good idea, but must be done quickly so the attacker cannon redirect the blow mid-strike. A block at the same time will help. A strike to the wrist or forearm is good if possible, but a strike to the side of the biceps with the non-blocking hand is probably better... or the neck or temple. A dragon's head punch is very effective in causing pain and/or cramps to muscle. Any time we grappled and were able to control the knife hand we would expect to disarm the opponent of his knife, then use it immediately on the opponent, as deep and long as possible (yes it will hurt him).

A defense of a straight or low upward thrust would be to block and trap with both hands open and thumbs crossed, grabbing the wrist, stepping under and through with the opposite foot, pivoting outside as the wrist is raised, and then brought down forcefully into the opponent's liver.

However, in the videos, there is usually little time to discern an attack is coming, and that means there may be less time to execute a viable defense. I agree with comments above that the victims seem not to be trained in knife defense. Also, that even if they were, there is little time to react, and your opponent only has to get in one good blow to the abdomen or under the ribs to do great damage or kill. As to one victim falling and not trying to fight back, I only know one person who was stabbed in the abdomen, unexpectedly, as his assailant ran past him from behind. Put him on his knees immediately due to pain, and he couldn't get up without help. He was a man in good shape, used to absorbing pain, but that got him.

I don't like the thought of knives coming at me. I would try almost anything to try and prevent someone from attacking me with a knife, but would certainly attempt to use a technique I have learned if that was all that was open.


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## frank raud (Feb 13, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> One of the big difficulties in defending against the type of attacks seen in the videos is that the knifeman is using his lead arm to grab the victim or uses it as a barrier to keep the victim at bay as he pistons the knife back and forth  from his rear arm
> Consequently the victim is in range to be stabbed , but can't really get in close enough to get a good tight two handed control on the knifeman's weapon arm.
> 
> Any defence needs to address the problem of getting that front arm out of the way first so that the defender can get in close and get a good capture of the knife arm.
> ...


 
A possible counter would be to grab the forward arm and pull across your body(left hand grabbing left hand), essentially an arm drag. With sufficient pull and some footwork, you would find yourself behind an off balanced BG, with options for rear chokes, kicking out back of knee, takedowns, etc. But again, this would have to be a trained reaction, and the videos dont show trained defenders.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 13, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> Any time we grappled and were able to control the knife hand we would expect to disarm the opponent of his knife, then use it immediately on the opponent, as deep and long as possible (yes it will hurt him).



As well as possibly get you arrested.  The attacker is now disarmed and you're not defending yourself, but attacking him with a deadly weapon yourself.  Not saying you would not be right to do so morally; but the law might not agree in this case.  This was brought home to me in the links I posted yesterday.  A bit eye-opening.



> A defense of a straight or low upward thrust would be to block and trap with both hands open and thumbs crossed, grabbing the wrist, stepping under and through with the opposite foot, pivoting outside as the wrist is raised, and then brought down forcefully into the opponent's liver.



I guess I'd have to see it done to think it could be effective against the 'prison rush' stabbing style we saw in the video.  Not disagreeing with you, but after watching that, I watched several videos online by this fellow that seems to debunk knife defense scenarios.  He's challenged some real experts in knife defense to stop him from stabbing them and none of them have been able to so far.  I could be wrong; just a bit agape at what I've been seeing.



> However, in the videos, there is usually little time to discern an attack is coming, and that means there may be less time to execute a viable defense. I agree with comments above that the victims seem not to be trained in knife defense. Also, that even if they were, there is little time to react, and your opponent only has to get in one good blow to the abdomen or under the ribs to do great damage or kill. As to one victim falling and not trying to fight back, I only know one person who was stabbed in the abdomen, unexpectedly, as his assailant ran past him from behind. Put him on his knees immediately due to pain, and he couldn't get up without help. He was a man in good shape, used to absorbing pain, but that got him.
> 
> I don't like the thought of knives coming at me. I would try almost anything to try and prevent someone from attacking me with a knife, but would certainly attempt to use a technique I have learned if that was all that was open.



Agreed.  I suspect that the 'prison yard rush' is the most common knife attack there is; and perhaps the hardest to defend against.  And I'm not sure that 'martial arts' skills really apply in such cases, other than to apply good footwork, balance, and keep calm as you move the blade hand and get around it.  Other than that, it looks like it's almost luck of the draw.  You could be Bruce Lee and get gutted.


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## frank raud (Feb 13, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Agreed.  I suspect that the 'prison yard rush' is the most common knife attack there is; and perhaps the hardest to defend against.  And I'm not sure that 'martial arts' skills really apply in such cases, other than to apply good footwork, balance, and keep calm as you move the blade hand and get around it.  Other than that, it looks like it's almost luck of the draw.  You could be Bruce Lee and get gutted.


Ever wonder why so few defenses are shown against a "prison yard rush" as opposed to say a straight thrust with the knife hand left extended for the good guy to apply his counter to? It aint so pretty and chance of pulling it off a low percentage.


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## mook jong man (Feb 13, 2012)

frank raud said:


> A possible counter would be to grab the forward arm and pull across your body(left hand grabbing left hand), essentially an arm drag. With sufficient pull and some footwork, you would find yourself behind an off balanced BG, with options for rear chokes, kicking out back of knee, takedowns, etc. But again, this would have to be a trained reaction, and the videos dont show trained defenders.



The arm drag sounds like a very good idea to me , it off balances the attacker and also gets you off the line of attack all in one movement.


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## frank raud (Feb 13, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> The arm drag sounds like a very good idea to me , it off balances the attacker and also gets you off the line of attack all in one movement.



One of the purposes for having the blade in the rear hand is to use the lead hand to grab and control, it is not uncommon to grab the opposing shoulder or arm to offbalance victim before stabbing commences. What good for the goose.......


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As well as possibly get you arrested.  The attacker is now disarmed and you're not defending yourself, but attacking him with a deadly weapon yourself.  Not saying you would not be right to do so morally; but the law might not agree in this case.  This was brought home to me in the links I posted yesterday.  A bit eye-opening.



Yup.





> I guess I'd have to see it done to think it could be effective against the 'prison rush' stabbing style we saw in the video.  Not disagreeing with you, but after watching that, I watched several videos online by this fellow that seems to debunk knife defense scenarios.  He's challenged some real experts in knife defense to stop him from stabbing them and none of them have been able to so far.  I could be wrong; just a bit agape at what I've been seeing.
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.  I suspect that the 'prison yard rush' is the most common knife attack there is; and perhaps the hardest to defend against.  And I'm not sure that 'martial arts' skills really apply in such cases, other than to apply good footwork, balance, and keep calm as you move the blade hand and get around it.  Other than that, it looks like it's almost luck of the draw.  You could be Bruce Lee and get gutted.



This is why I cringe at alot of the knife stuff taught today.  Obviously we're going to get cut/stabbed, though hopefully not bad enough to prevent us from fighting, but anyways....returning the knife into the guy aside, I think one of the better options is the 2 handed grab.  Now, if the guy is using his free hand, which is a good possibility, I'd say side step if possible to get off the line of attack.  

What were you thinking as far as options go?


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## Buka (Feb 13, 2012)

I think it comes down to is what each of us are good at. If we have a good grab, jam, arm drag, leg check etc, then that's probably what's best. Can't just pull things out of the hat that haven't been drilled.

Some of this becomes moot if you have a fast access blade of your own and have trained knife, particularly a slashing-from-the-draw combo while fading to his outside. Two can Ginsu as well as one.


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## Blindside (Feb 14, 2012)

My kali group works this attack frequently, and in defending against it  the defenders "die".... frequently.  But some things seem to work, using  the left hand (assuming a right hand attacker here) to jam the highline  thrusts (like a hook punch) at the tricep or intercepting the lowline  (uppercut thrust) at the forearm with your own "counter thrust" motion.   I have had better success going inside the jamming lead hand arm to get  control of the weapon arm.  How and what you control at that point is  important but we try to shift outside the weapon arm with possible, usually after attaining a two on one grip to the attackers weapon hand.  You can't really simulate the surprise attack in a training scenario, so the standard caveat of "nothing you do in training is real" is definitely a major factor here.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 14, 2012)

MJS said:


> What were you thinking as far as options go?



Well, I have been playing this over and over in my mind; talked it over with some dojomates last night in the dojo as well.

First thought; gotta stay upright.  Fall over with him on top and you're done.  You'll never get up again.

Second thought; the attacker's arm, to pump like a piston over and over in the same thrust, has to be nearly on automatic pilot.  The attacker isn't focusing the blade, he's focusing on your responses; the blade hand is on auto-pilot.  So get the arm away (as many others have said here) as quickly as possible.  I doubt my ability to grab, trap, or otherwise immobilize a powerful arm motion like that; the mechanics are wrong for the victim; it's like trying to stop a train from the front - literally - his blade hand is moving like an old steam train moved its wheels, chug, chug, chug.

So it seems to me that the thing to do is turn his arm or turn his body or both; if he's right-handed, turn him to his left.  This exposes you as he passes, but it's also the fastest way for you to pass the blade and behind it, and get behind him.  And that, I think, is critical.  You must get behind the blade, and optimally behind the attacker.  I could see doing that with a left-to-right block if applied behind his elbow fast enough to spin him or at least move his arm to his left.  Get your left foot out there past him and PASS!  Don't worry so much about immobilizing his arm or knife at that point; get it pointed away from you and you behind it.  He has a good range of motion in front of him; little to the sides, and none to the rear.  He simply cannot stab behind himself effectively, he has to turn to face his victim.

Once behind him, the options are open.  Running away is one.  But if you cannot; say because you doubt your ability or you are in an enclosed area or you are injured already, then you must take this bastard down NOW.  You can't dance with him, so whatever you do, it must be fast and it must be a finishing move.  I dunno there.  I'm trying to think what I could do whilst holding my guts in with my hands, as if I had already been stabbed one or more times.  Low kick to the inside of the knees, maybe, followed by pouncing on him, using my weight, and pounding his head into the ground as many times as I'm capable of doing until he stops wiggling or I stop breathing.  But whatever I do, I can't let him turn around on me; he'll never let me pass again, and he'll do me in.  It is all-important that I stay behind him until he can't move.


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## Blindside (Feb 14, 2012)

MJS said:


> I've seen some of the DLO clips on youtube. I liked what I saw. I've been tempted to buy the dvds, but havent. Have you seen them? If so, I'd be interested in your thoughts on them.



Good vids, very worth the price.  I am very familiar with the core concept of the technique (there is a reason why the vid calls it the "Pekiti hand") but a couple of tips were new to me, particularly one on head placement.  Good stuff.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 14, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As well as possibly get you arrested. The attacker is now disarmed and you're not defending yourself, but attacking him with a deadly weapon yourself. Not saying you would not be right to do so morally; but the law might not agree in this case. This was brought home to me in the links I posted yesterday. A bit eye-opening.
> 
> *That is certainly a possibility. The exact circumstances of the attack must be considered. If there is more than one attacker, or you fear the attacker may still be able to attack you, it would be more justifiable. You may also be able to argue that you were attacked and that your training "took over" and you reacted as you did, including cutting the attacker with his own knife, based on that training and the sudden unpreparedness of the attack. It might work, or it might not. There were reportedly courts that once held any damage inflicted by a MA was beyond defense due to being a "trained MA."
> 
> ...



You might look from about 36 seconds on the following. It purports to be Japanese, but is the way I was first taught up to the point of stabbing the attacker. There was no follow up for a shoulder throw when I was taught, but I see no problem with it. Later, my GM showed me a modification there the knife hand was moved to the inside (to the defender's right for a right hand thrust), rather than stopped in the straight in thrust.

http://www.bahadzubughq.com/forum/index.php?topic=264.0


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## fenglong (Feb 14, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> You might look from about 36 seconds on the following. It purports to be Japanese, but is the way I was first taught up to the point of stabbing the attacker. There was no follow up for a shoulder throw when I was taught, but I see no problem with it. Later, my GM showed me a modification there the knife hand was moved to the inside (to the defender's right for a right hand thrust), rather than stopped in the straight in thrust.
> 
> http://www.bahadzubughq.com/forum/index.php?topic=264.0



The way this is practiced is usually against a single forward stab, but not against forward and instant backward motions with full force, it is somewhat like trying to grab and lock the jab of a boxer.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 14, 2012)

fenglong said:


> The way this is practiced is usually against a single forward stab, but not against forward and instant backward motions with full force, it is somewhat like trying to grab and lock the jab of a boxer.



Yes, but follow the technique through.  Done at speed, as the attacker pulls his hand back, you are pushing his hand back and down as well as you step through and pivot, the stab the opponent with his own knife.  The video shows more a stab in the stomach.  I was taught in the liver.  Dissect it as you will, but make it work or study something else.  I don't promise it will work for you or anyone else.  But I don't think you will be wrong to add it to your arsenal.  Perhaps you can describe or demonstrate another that is even better.  I would love to add another tool to my kit as well.


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## David43515 (Feb 14, 2012)

Blindside said:


> Good vids, very worth the price. I am very familiar with the core concept of the technique (there is a reason why the vid calls it the "Pekiti hand") but a couple of tips were new to me, particularly one on head placement. Good stuff.



I thought they were well done too. I`ve never specifically done Pekiti Tirsia (I`d love to if I had the chance)but I was familiar with alot of the basic movement from practicing other FMA. I won`t go into specifics of how-to because it`s not my material, but I`ll try to comment on what I thought were some of the many good points. 1) It`s based on the idea that an attaker is armed whether you`ve seen the weapon or not. And the material works well for most attacks coming into either the high or middle line. 2) It assumes that your attacker is throwing fast repeated attacks and may switch hands if you get control of the weapon arm. 3) It uses broad parts of the body to stop the attack and get control of the arm rather than having to catch it by just grabbing a fast-moving slippery arm. 4) If you or your attacker are moving into each other, even if you can`t grab the weapon arm right off the bat you`re forcing it to move slower and have less power with each stab. At the same time you`re protecting your vitals, and messing up the attacker`s balance. 5) Rather than focusing on specific follow ups they show you how to get into a safe position where you can do whatever kind of follow ups you know and preffer. While getting into this safe position there`s a high chance you`ve either gotten control of the weapon arm or knocked him on his butt. 6) They point out where things can go wrong and offer solutions that get you right back on track. And 7) like all Dog Brother productions "If you see it taught, you see it fought". In other words at different stages through the seminar you see people who just learned the material that weekend pressure testing it again and again. Denny uses slow motion replay to show what was done right, what common mistakes people made, and where they could have had a chance to either break contact or draw their own weapon.
It doesn`t claim to be the end all be all super style, but it lives up to it`s claim that people who used the material in simulated attacks "died less often" than people who didn`t. It gives you a solid meathod to work with and builds the skills to make it work. If you`ve done any FMA, Silat, or Wing Chun I think you`ll see familiar material in a new light. If I were teaching I`d deffinately add this material to my program (concept based material is easy to add if you think about it) and I`d reccomend it to anyone working in law enforcement or corrections.


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## mook jong man (Feb 14, 2012)

Here's a variation in using the front arm to control as he stabs , but in this one he is using his forearm to keep the defender wedged up against a wall as he starts the typical sewing machine action.

WARNING: Lot of swearing in this clip.


[video=youtube_share;E61jnJe_1SI]http://youtu.be/E61jnJe_1SI[/video]


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## chinto (Feb 14, 2012)

first it will not be a fight usually if a knife is involved, its an AMBUSH!! AMBUSH IS ABOUT KILLING! so, if you see a blade and can run, RUN!!! put something solid between him/her and you if you can and run !!!   if you cant run, you better get mad dog mean and try to KILL OR MAIM this individual as fast and viciously as you can! Its now for all the marbles! You must assume that one of you will now DIE!  get control of the knife arm if possible, or positioned so he cant cut and stab you as much as you can possibly do, and do maximum damage as fast as you can!  other then that  good luck.  something like a prison sewing machine attack from ambush is very hard to survive.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 15, 2012)

Mook Jong Man - that is a good video.  I cannot listen to the sound at the moment, but it shows what can happen and the difficulties involved.  As I said yesterday, there is no attempt to manipulate the pinning hand.  There are several that will turn the attacker's body away such that the knife hand cannot be used.  There is also a good one I have mentioned before where you have little room to manuver, such as being against a wall, where you strike the opponents forearm with your forearm, redircting the knife thrust to your side as you step forward and simutaneously strike the opponents upper arm with a dragon's punch.  At a minimun it will give you time to react in a different way, hopefully it will cause the opponent to drop the knife.

However, there isn't much time to react with any of the techniques.  That is one thing I was always taught was to react quickly and forcefully.  It isn't always easy to do, as if you walk around ready to grab anyone who makes a possible move on you and rip their arm off, your circle of friends is going to diminish rapidly.


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## fenglong (Feb 16, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Here's a variation in using the front arm to control as he stabs , but in this one he is using his forearm to keep the defender wedged up against a wall as he starts the typical sewing machine action.
> 
> WARNING: Lot of swearing in this clip.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;E61jnJe_1SI]http://youtu.be/E61jnJe_1SI[/video]



Thanks for sharing this, I hope it will open some eyes.

As for me, I got another reminder how good some Wing Chun concepts should work in real situations.


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## Buka (Feb 16, 2012)

Great video.


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## OKenpo942 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.

James


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## Blindside (Feb 18, 2012)

OKenpo942 said:


> I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.
> 
> James



While I agree with all your points, I think it is fair to say that most "knife defense" that is presented in many martial arts fail to address these types of "prison shank" attacks, including kenpo.


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## WingChunIan (Feb 20, 2012)

OKenpo942 said:


> I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.
> 
> James


You make some fair points James but I think the important thing to note is the savagery of the attacks and the fact that the knife hand retracts quickly in each case. As pointed out in the video posted by mookjong techniques that work great against a known attack with no intent to withdraw and strike again normally fail horribly when confronted with this type of attack.


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## MJS (Feb 20, 2012)

OKenpo942 said:


> I think in many of these situations, the victims never saw the knife to begin with. The attack was on a completely unsuspecting and defenseless person. Kinda hard to defend what you can't see. So, I ask, what technique isn't working? How many arts teach how to defend against an attack that you can't see to begin with? How can we even assume that these victims were even trained in any sort of knife defense and were even attempting to utilize such techniques? These victims didn't seem to be trained to me. How can a technique fail if you don't know any techniques? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.
> 
> James





Blindside said:


> While I agree with all your points, I think it is fair to say that most "knife defense" that is presented in many martial arts fail to address these types of "prison shank" attacks, including kenpo.



Blideside is correct IMHO.  All my years in Kenpo and I've never saw the pumping style attack.  All of my knife work dealing with that, has come from my Arnis instructor, who's worked in Corrections for the past 20yrs.  But, IMO, I also think that its foolish to think that when faced with a knife, you'll always be attacked one way.  In prison...sure, the assassination type shankings is most likely what we'll see.  Large groups of inamtes in the yard, passing in the halls, etc, is where you'll see the hit and run type attacks.  But, OTOH, someone mugging you is most likely using that knife for intimidation.  This isn't to say that they wont use it, of course they would.  But the blade will already be out.


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## OKenpo942 (Feb 22, 2012)

Blindside said:


> While I agree with all your points, I think it is fair to say that most "knife defense" that is presented in many martial arts fail to address these types of "prison shank" attacks, including kenpo.



I agree, Blindside. That is my whole point. While training in knife defense is always better than not training, I think it is a very sketchy situation if you are aware that a knife is present. Even worse if you are unaware. 

How is it possible to defend against a "shanking"? I think it is a losing proposition either way. I think there are things that can be done to help your chances, obviously, but, yes, I fear the knife. The defenses that can help are not necessarily "knife" defenses. I still think you are getting cut either way.

James


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## OKenpo942 (Feb 22, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> You make some fair points James but I think the important thing to note is the savagery of the attacks and the fact that the knife hand retracts quickly in each case. As pointed out in the video posted by mookjong techniques that work great against a known attack with no intent to withdraw and strike again normally fail horribly when confronted with this type of attack.



I completely agree. Again, without fear of being redundant, I dread a blade in the hands of a thug bearing ill will towards me. I know I will fail in regards to sharing my blood with the world, but will hopefully be successful in returning home to my den.

Hopefully at some point you can either isolate and immobilize the knife wielding arm, or better yet, run faster than he can.

James

James


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## OKenpo942 (Feb 22, 2012)

MJS said:


> Blideside is correct IMHO. All my years in Kenpo and I've never saw the pumping style attack. All of my knife work dealing with that, has come from my Arnis instructor, who's worked in Corrections for the past 20yrs. But, IMO, I also think that its foolish to think that when faced with a knife, you'll always be attacked one way. In prison...sure, the assassination type shankings is most likely what we'll see. Large groups of inamtes in the yard, passing in the halls, etc, is where you'll see the hit and run type attacks. But, OTOH, someone mugging you is most likely using that knife for intimidation. This isn't to say that they wont use it, of course they would. But the blade will already be out.



Yessir! I'm glad you said that. It is foolish to train for the same attack all the time. You have to be diverse in your training. Especially with knife defense. This goes back to my argument though. If you are training knife defense, you know that your opponent has a knife. Much easier to have success if you know the knife is there in the first place. This is why, though I don't agree with it, so many are scrapping the IP techniques and only training functional. Don't get me wrong here. I love functional training. I do feel, though, that not training the IP or original techniques is neglecting the foundation that teaches the principles held within the techniques.

Anyway, this is not a Kenpo thread, so I will get back on topic. IMO many of the video clips shown shown in the original post look to be more of the "shanking" type or a completely stealth attack. I just don't think that these vids show any failure of any particular techniques because I don't think it is possible to defend against an attack that you can't see. Unless, of course, you wear your knights armor everywhere you go. How can you possibly employ a technique that is intended for a certain attack if you don't ever see the attack coming. Yes, I am being redundant again. I just don't see how you can question whether or not you need to rethink knife defense techniques based on these vids. 

Reminds me of the old Pink Panther movies where they randomly attack one another to keep them on their toes and alert. Hmmm, maybe they were onto something. Do I see a new type of training on the horizon? Could be fun.

James


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## WingChunIan (Feb 23, 2012)

OKenpo942 said:


> Yessir! I'm glad you said that. It is foolish to train for the same attack all the time. You have to be diverse in your training. Especially with knife defense. This goes back to my argument though. If you are training knife defense, you know that your opponent has a knife. Much easier to have success if you know the knife is there in the first place. This is why, though I don't agree with it, so many are scrapping the IP techniques and only training functional. Don't get me wrong here. I love functional training. I do feel, though, that not training the IP or original techniques is neglecting the foundation that teaches the principles held within the techniques.
> 
> Anyway, this is not a Kenpo thread, so I will get back on topic. IMO many of the video clips shown shown in the original post look to be more of the "shanking" type or a completely stealth attack. I just don't think that these vids show any failure of any particular techniques because I don't think it is possible to defend against an attack that you can't see. Unless, of course, you wear your knights armor everywhere you go. How can you possibly employ a technique that is intended for a certain attack if you don't ever see the attack coming. Yes, I am being redundant again. I just don't see how you can question whether or not you need to rethink knife defense techniques based on these vids.
> 
> ...


Sorry to disagree but in most of the clips the victim clearly sees the attack they just don't recognise it as a knife attack. The attacks are sudden and savage which is how most folks will use a blade and under these circumstances most of the tripe that is taught as knife defence will fail.


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## OKenpo942 (Mar 3, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> Sorry to disagree but in most of the clips the victim clearly sees the attack they just don't recognise it as a knife attack. The attacks are sudden and savage which is how most folks will use a blade and under these circumstances most of the tripe that is taught as knife defence will fail.



You don't have to be sorry to disagree. We just have differing perspectives. Okay, let's say they do see the knife... Who said that these folks in the videos are martial artists at all. Does the regular Joe on the street know "knife defenses" and how to use them. I don't think that most people do. So, again, how can we question what techniques need to be reconsidered based on these videos? We can't just assume that these victims are martial artists. The OP states,"...time to reconsider some techniques?" Again I ask... What techniques?


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## Cyriacus (Mar 3, 2012)

OKenpo942 said:


> You don't have to be sorry to disagree. We just have differing perspectives. Okay, let's say they do see the knife... Who said that these folks in the videos are martial artists at all. Does the regular Joe on the street know "knife defenses" and how to use them. I don't think that most people do. So, again, how can we question what techniques need to be reconsidered based on these videos? We can't just assume that these victims are martial artists. The OP states,"...time to reconsider some techniques?" Again I ask... What techniques?


Youre both saying the same thing in different ways - Read His as being "He clearly isnt a Martial Artist, and no 'Technique' is in sight or use."


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## WingChunIan (Mar 7, 2012)

Fair enough, but I the vids are still a good barometer of effectiveness. Most attacks happen rapidly and turn into a frenzy of blows whether they are punches and kicks or knives, bottles, bricks, bars or any other weapon. Often there isn't time to decide if the attack is armed or not and you only have a split second to respond. Once the initial window is lost it becomes increasingly difficult to recover due to the frenzy of the attack and the damage being sustained. I'm probably over reacting slightly but this is one of my hobby horses as I've seen so much crap being taught by traditional arts and military based systems alike that profess to handle knife attack (often involving complex control and disarming manouvers) but in reality would simply get students killed.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 7, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> Fair enough, but I the vids are still a good barometer of effectiveness. Most attacks happen rapidly and turn into a frenzy of blows whether they are punches and kicks or knives, bottles, bricks, bars or any other weapon. Often there isn't time to decide if the attack is armed or not and you only have a split second to respond. Once the initial window is lost it becomes increasingly difficult to recover due to the frenzy of the attack and the damage being sustained. I'm probably over reacting slightly but this is one of my hobby horses as I've seen so much crap being taught by traditional arts and military based systems alike that profess to handle knife attack (often involving complex control and disarming manouvers) but in reality would simply get students killed.


That said, theres often a gap between actual Military Systems, and 'Military' Systems that just use the name either due to their origins, or their basis; Or Theyre just taught TO the Military, and thereby claim to be specialised to it. Often 'actual' Military Systems are those that arent found outside of the Military.

Anyone remember the old LINE System?


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## Grenadier (Mar 20, 2012)

*Attention all users:*

Posts regarding the discussion of the unrelated matter have been moved into a separate thread:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?101984-Zenjael-s-Self-Defense-Methodologies

If you wish to continue discussing such matter, then please use that thread.  

Otherwise, let's keep this discussion on topic.  

Thank you.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## Haakon (Mar 20, 2012)

frank raud said:


> A possible counter would be to grab the forward arm and pull across your body(left hand grabbing left hand), essentially an arm drag. With sufficient pull and some footwork, you would find yourself behind an off balanced BG, with options for rear chokes, kicking out back of knee, takedowns, etc. But again, this would have to be a trained reaction, and the videos dont show trained defenders.



That's a strategy I've considered and practiced with my son - of course what works on a 10 year old has a great chance of not working on an adult, I haven't tried it against a large determined partner yet. My thought was if the attacker is keeping the knife hand to the rear and stabbing that if I could get control of the lead hand I could get them in a position where they couldn't reach me with the knife.

Have you tried that in practice yet?


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## mook jong man (Mar 21, 2012)

Haakon said:


> That's a strategy I've considered and practiced with my son - of course what works on a 10 year old has a great chance of not working on an adult, I haven't tried it against a large determined partner yet. My thought was if the attacker is keeping the knife hand to the rear and stabbing that if I could get control of the lead hand I could get them in a position where they couldn't reach me with the knife.
> 
> Have you tried that in practice yet?



Did a bit of experimentation with this a few weeks ago with one of my students and got some mixed results.

Now to be fair I am not a judo man or grappler , I am a Wing Chun man.
What we found is that the arm drag works great when his lead hand is already in contact with you , say for example on your chest , you can go pretty quickly from blocking the knife thrust straight into the arm drag and get around to his back , and what we did then was get a a hold of the arm and shoulder and start laying in repeated knee strikes to the back of his hamstrings.

When we tried it without the lead arm in contact range we found that while you were in the process of trying to capture the arm for the arm drag you would be gutted , it just took too long to get it on and in the mean time you would be getting stabbed.

Still keeping with the theory of trying to get around to his back , we used a different technique.
What we used was the Wing Chun pak sau , essentially a sideways slapping parry to the wrist of his lead hand.
It had the effect of knocking his arm sideways and putting his body in an off balanced position and gave us enough of a gap to step around at a 45 degree angle and get around to his back.

We practiced it with my back against the wall so I could not use my posture to get my hips back to avoid the knife thrusts , if his lead hand is coming forward almost at the same time as the knife thrusts commence , then I had to use three movements simultaneously.

I had to jam/deflect his knife thrust at the inside of his wrist with one arm , while I  side parry his lead arm with the other .
At the same time I also did a low heel kick to his knee/ shin.

The low heel kick served two purposes , it stopped him from advancing and getting greater penetration with the knife hand , it also serves as a distraction , hopefully stunning him long enough for the time I need to step around and get to his back.

So to summarise , if it's close range and the attackers lead hand is already on me then I will use a two handed arm drag due to it's powerful displacement effect on the attackers body.
We used a two handed arm drag because in some instances he had a good hold of my shirt and the two handed  arm drag broke the grip quite nicely.

If the attacker is about to close in with the lead hand then I will use the Pak Sau due to it's speed and economy of motion and and because I will need the other hand to posssibly deflect the knife .

As I said I am no Judo or grappling guy so your results might vary , but as a Wing Chun guy I am no stranger when it comes to manipulating peoples arms.
This is just what worked for us , the attacker was very enthusiastic and came in hard and stabbed like a Singer sewing machine.


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## grumpywolfman (Jun 30, 2012)

I didn't even have to press the play button - I recognized this clip - it's brutal; it illustrates the harsh reality of self defense. A response needs to be immediate, and *with the same level of the attacker's emotional intensity without mercy*. IMO, a defender if he or she even has the time to respond, may be limited to gross body movements due to the sheer shock of the surprise of this horrific attack. For me, I hope that my response would be: as soon as I would see the knife revealed and advanced at me (assuming that I could not control the distance), to meet the attack with (nonstop as fast as I possibly can) alternating front kicks one leg after the other with everything I got to drive that M.Fer. backwards to stop his momentum. When I can start to accept what is happening to me after this intial reaction, to possibly throw in some kicks or sweeps to the legs, but my ultimate goal would be to *kill him* at the throat as quickly as possible. IMO, it would be very difficult (FOR ME) to try and grab the knife.


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## Gnarlie (Jun 30, 2012)

grumpywolfman said:


> I didn't even have to press the play button - I recognized this clip - it's brutal; it illustrates the harsh reality of self defense. A response needs to be immediate, and *with the same level of the attacker's emotional intensity without mercy*. IMO, a defender if he or she even has the time to respond, may be limited to gross body movements due to the sheer shock of the surprise of this horrific attack. For me, I hope that my response would be: as soon as I would see the knife revealed and advanced at me (assuming that I could not control the distance), to meet the attack with (nonstop as fast as I possibly can) alternating front kicks one leg after the other with everything I got to drive that M.Fer. backwards to stop his momentum. When I can start to accept what is happening to me after this intial reaction, to possibly throw in some kicks or sweeps to the legs, but my ultimate goal would be to *kill him* at the throat as quickly as possible. IMO, it would be very difficult (FOR ME) to try and grab the knife.



I think kicking could be a non-starter against this, for 2 reasons:

Firstly, you'd need to see it coming and part of the horror of these attacks is the surprise. 

Secondly, a major feature of this type if attack is unbalancing and controlling the victim with the non-stabbing arm.  Not the best circumstances to be standing on one leg for any amount of time. 

I'd be more inclined to try to broadly impede the stabbing motion with one arm whilst trying to rotate an unbalance the attacker usinf his forward momentum.  This will definitely mean getting stabbed though.   I don't really know.   It's really, really tough.   Basically, I'd probably be killed or at least seriously injured. 

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## grumpywolfman (Jun 30, 2012)

IMO if there are no options left other than to go hand to hand with an assailant who is armed with a knife, there will be two schools of thought; to disarm first, or to immediately attack - may none of us ever have to make that decision.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 30, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> I think kicking could be a non-starter against this, for 2 reasons:
> 
> Firstly, you'd need to see it coming and part of the horror of these attacks is the surprise.
> 
> ...


You kind of need to see if coming to do the whole unbalancing-the-attacker thing.


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## shinbushi (Jul 1, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> Did a bit of experimentation with this a few weeks ago with one of my students and got some mixed results.
> 
> Now to be fair I am not a judo man or grappler , I am a Wing Chun man.
> What we found is that the arm drag works great when his lead hand is already in contact with you


Several good knife defensive systems like Red Zone and Stab use the arm drag.  I don't know if DLO does


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## Gnarlie (Jul 1, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> You kind of need to see if coming to do the whole unbalancing-the-attacker thing.



Exactly.  Hence I would likely be stabbed or killed.  My point was that by the time one realised this was happening we would likely already be too close for kicking.

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cyriacus (Jul 1, 2012)

Gnarlie said:


> Exactly.  Hence I would likely be stabbed or killed.  My point was that by the time one realised this was happening we would likely already be too close for kicking.
> 
> Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk 2


Of course - But if you can react at all, you could, (Random example here. Im making it up as i go along) grab the wrist, punch the head, wrestle the hand out of the way, lean back a bit, stomp kick the body.
Given that you are holding the wrist, and probably something else, them being pushed away when they cant move away could hurt a bit. But you cant just use kicking alone


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 6, 2013)

Reconsider what?


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## Cyriacus (Jul 6, 2013)

Yes, i know how silly this is, but im doing it anyway.



Cyriacus said:


> Of course - But if you can react at all, you could, (Random example here. Im making it up as i go along) grab the wrist, punch the head, wrestle the hand out of the way, lean back a bit, stomp kick the body.
> Given that you are holding the wrist, and probably something else, them being pushed away when they cant move away could hurt a bit. But you cant just use kicking alone



I disagree with me! Grabbing the wrist doesnt prevent the stabby arm from just swinging again. A single punch to the head in that context would be a waste of time anyway compared to shove-and-run-like-hell.


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