# Shodan ego inflation



## angrywhitepajamas (May 2, 2003)

How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility  and atrocious in form??  Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions.  And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
(Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)


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## chufeng (May 2, 2003)

If he just received his Shodan, then there must be other senior folks AND a chief instructor...

The chief instructor should establish, in writing, what his standards are...if part of a larger organization, use the organization standards...

Once that's been done (and it may already be done...ask) then simply say to this guy, "That's an intersting variation, why do you do it that way? Is it in your interpretation?" It points out that it's different without threatening him or his tender ego.

If he says, "This is the way it is supposed to be done..." say, "I'm sorry, it was my understanding, based on sensei xxxx's standards that it be done this way..."

Hope this helps.

:asian:
chufeng


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## yilisifu (May 2, 2003)

I remember in the old days (I know..you're all probably real tired of hearing about this stuff, but...), as soon as someone was promoted to shodan, the teacher and other seniors all helped "pound the nail back down."  That is, the new shodan was taken through gruelling training with them, during which time they took turns pounding the stuffing out of him - just to let him know that he still didn't know squat and had just started his real training.

And that's all a shodan is; someone who has come to perform the basics well and who is now ready to start learning the real thing.


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## TLH3rdDan (May 2, 2003)

well said yilisifu i was about to say something very similar but i think you have put it much more tactfully lol... so ill just state that i feel the same way... been there done that on both sides of that situation


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## Zepp (May 2, 2003)

Shodan is the first black belt rank, right?  Well, as someone who has also recently received his shodan:

I think the head instructor and senior black belts are responsible for keeping this individual in his place and in good form in 2 ways.  The first way, like yilisifu said, is to beat the crud out of him and show him how invincible he is not.  The second way, which can be just as humbling, is to have him instruct the lower belts (under supervision of course).  If he truly deserves the rank he has been awarded, the experience of teaching should make him take another look at himself and realize his own flaws.

The combination of the two should keep him in place.


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## chufeng (May 2, 2003)

Sifu,

Does this mean I can pound Matt and Dennis????

chufeng


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## Matt Stone (May 2, 2003)

Somehow I just have a real problem with the whole "he's a black belt, so I have to be nice and polite and deferential to him" thought...

So he's a black belt.  So what.  Say what you have to say, politely and tactfully (simply because courtesy demands no less), but don't feel you have to walk on egg shells...  At least that's how it should be in my mind.

When folks try to act all deferential around me, I just push back even harder for them not to accept me for anything other than a rank beginner...  I'm not "Older Brother," dammit!!!  I'm just me, and me happens to have a lot left to learn!

As for the change, it is a common thing, in and out of MA.  In the Army, you constantly see these newly promoted sergeants who forget that just yesterday they were one of the rank and file.  They forget that just yesterday they were the junior enlisted guy being bossed around by that grey-haired, hard-nosed bastard of a sergeant.  Today they think they rule the world.  Happens with second lieutenants, too (they all seem to think they're MacArthur or Patton...  don't know why, since they all seem to need help buttoning up their pants).

Don't sweat it.  If it is a big enough problem, pull him to the side and privately ask him what you have to ask.  If he is worthy of the belt, he should accept the critique.  If he's a punk, and he starts getting cocky and tries to "pull rank," remind him you're not in the army, then go see the instructor...

And *Chufeng*...  Why do you think you need to find a new reason to pound me?    I let you pound me because the day ends in the last three letters "d..a..y!"

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (May 2, 2003)

OK...Full colors for you on Saturday...bring the nice belt (satin) with the two red-stripes...wear it OVER your jacket, not under...

I'll wear yellow   phtphthththpht...

chufeng


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## Matt Stone (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *OK...Full colors for you on Saturday...bring the nice belt (satin) with the two red-stripes...wear it OVER your jacket, not under...
> 
> I'll wear yellow   phtphthththpht...
> ...



See, you make one little comment, and then folks start gettin' all mean and stuff...  :wah:

But if I bring the nice belt, and wear it over my jacket instead of under, then folks will think things...  I gotta get a nice, shiny, new white belt...  Then you can wear yellow all you want!

You're not serious, right...?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (May 2, 2003)

I apologize to the rest of this board for my intruding with personal requests for one of our senior students...

back to the subject, now...kick his ***...No, that wasn't it....
...don't step on his toes if he outranks you, use the chain of command...without looking like a tattle-tale...

I don't think I've helped much 

good luck
chufeng:asian:


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## yilisifu (May 2, 2003)

I agree.  In days of yore, the exercise of "pounding the nail back down" usually occured immediately following the exam...so the poor guy was exhausted to start with.  He would have to do ALL of his forms with LOTS of critique and repetitions (and he'd better use plenty of power and celerity), then a lot of One-Step (done full-tilt boogie), followed by an inspiring session of sparring or freestyle one-step.

   It wasn't unusual to see the poor fellow literally crawl out of the training area.

   And if he puked or bled on the deck, he had to clean it up himself.  Before he could rest or clean up.

   Nowadays, too much emphasis is often put on the "black belt."  People (including many martial arts practicioners) associate it with the term "expert" which, as Walt Whitman stated, is "anyone who can spit over a boxcar."
   A shodan is no expert (whatever that is).  He's done well and certainly accomplished something noteworthy but he needs to understand what it really means.


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## Shinzu (May 2, 2003)

it is one thing to be proud of your rank, and another to be egotistical.  those who obtain the BB rank need to realize there is much more to learn.  maybe if the instructor tested their knowledge on something they knew nothing about they would be a little bit embarrassed themselves.


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 3, 2003)

Thanks for the advice.   Ill try the subtle way, but I have to admit that he's 40 something and im only starting my twenties.  If not ill have sensei introduce him to jyu-kumite, and jyu-waza to teach him control.  Weve tried having him teach lower ranks, but he dosen't controll his hits. (he's the uke from hell in aikido parlance).  So he is religated to just traing with the sensei.  (He thinks that this is a good thing)

But thanks


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## Shinzu (May 4, 2003)

some people must be shown to be taught.  give it some time.  he will come to realize that he is just like the rest of us on a never ending journey.... not superman


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## RyuShiKan (May 4, 2003)

One thing you may want to remind the new shodan why you are beating the bajeezuz out of them is shodan means first level not "last level"or first grade, which means they only just graduated from kindergarten.


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## RyuShiKan (May 4, 2003)

One thing you may want to remind the new shodan while you are beating the bajeezuz out of them is shodan means first level not "last level"or first grade, which means they only just graduated from kindergarten.


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## lucifersdad (May 5, 2003)

ha ha, we have this one a lot, hey i had it myself!!
we call it "dan grade syndrome" i try and avoid it with my students by telling them about it WAY before they are due to go dan grade, i then tell them how stupidly i acted when i was like that! we all have a laugh and they have a dig at me and so far this approach has worked for me.
the only time i've had to deal with one of these charectors in my class was a visiting black belt and therefor i had to be pretty diplomatic, after he told my students i had taught them kata wrong, and told them the self defence technique i was teaching didnt work( everyone is entitled to their oppinion) he tried beating up one of the girls in the class (during sparring), an orange belt 3 years his junior, so i unleashed the fury that was a student of mine dubed "pepperami" (if your not from england you probably wont get that!) a much smaller kid with the heart of a lion and a fight like a junkyard dog!
a small lesson in humility was learned by some, and a really good laugh was had by others!


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## Deaf (May 12, 2003)

I think it is pretty fair to say that most every "Sho" Dan gets a bit egoistical for the first few months after receiving their BB.  Think about it...wouldn't you after working your *** off, sweating blood and whatever other hard work you have put into it for over 3 or 4 years...I would be pretty damn cocky myself for a bit.

And truth be told, I WAS for about 6 months until I basically realized how much of an *** I was being and after having numerous conversations with my seniors and juniors.

If the newly Sho-Dan isn't really a "liability" or hurting anyone physically then let him continue to make an *** out of himself.  Eventually (hopefully) he'll realize it and stop.  In the meantime choose to either not train with him OR train with him, but take the opportunity to work on your defense when he attacks and your offense when he defends in a different light.  Try to feel how your body is now responding to the difference and try to recognize openings or opportunities etc.

Also make your feelings KNOWN!  That is not being disrespectful if done correctly in my opinion.

HTH,

~Deaf~


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## angrywhitepajamas (Jun 18, 2003)

Lord help me, 
He is now my training partner for my dan test. Its gonna be a long summer full of testosteronetoxicitysyndrome.
Any tips on patience


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## tonbo (Jun 19, 2003)

Hehe....."What goes around, comes around".  I think it's an old Chinese saying that "He who strikes with a sharp edge is not himself safe for long".

Sounds like our school got pretty lucky.  About a year ago, the majority of our upper belt class earned their Black ranks.  There were about five or so of us that had the privilege, and, I have to say, I have actually seen egos go *down*.  I think that primarily comes because we are constantly training with a 4th degree and our head instructor, who is an 8th degree.  There is never any doubt as to who the top dogs are, and how little we actually know.

I give a thumbs up to all those who point out that Black/Dan ranks are not the end of training.  They are just the end of worrying about the pretty colored belt parade.  Once you earn Black/Dan rank, you stop worrying about testing to get your next belt, and start realizing that all you have done is proven that you have learned enough basics to start learning "big people's" martial arts.  In terms from our school, a Black Belt is an "advanced white belt".   

I do find the concept of having a bigger ego at Black/Dan ranks to be funny.....aren't you supposed to have your eyes opened at that point?  Again, at our school, when you have earned your Black, the upper belts stop going so easy on you.  They figure that you are now ready to start learning seriously, and the standards bar gets raised that much higher.  You learn a *lot*, but you gotta work hard to get it.

It's just like being a white belt all over again.

Man, I love it.   

Peace--


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## jeffkyle (Jun 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility  and atrocious in form??  *



Kick his A$$!!!



> And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??



Get someone else to kick his A$$ if you don't want to do it.  IF they don't want to do it, then You kick his A$$!


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## Shuri-te (Jun 20, 2003)

My first Sensei got infuriated over a student who left the dojo for a while and didn't train, and came back forgetting so much. At the end of class, he went up to the Shodan, asked him to take off his belt, went to his bag, returned with a white belt and told him he had to earn his black belt again before he could wear it.

That left a lasting impression on me. 

If I had a student that acted inappropriately in the dojo, I would do the same thing. I'd take his belt away and tell him he can have it back after he starts acting like a responsible student again. And in the meantime, he would where a white belt.


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## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Jul 18, 2003)

Sadly, I do have a person in my dojo who just received his shodan and is very much like your description.  Unfortunately, this person was always like this at every rank.  And, at any time anyone even tries to suggest anything to this person, he just screams at them to go do their kata or something or other.  I like you am very fed up with these type of people, but I fear that if we are lower rank, we have no power to stop these types of people.  At least this pertains to my dojo.

:asian: :ak47: :machgunr:


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## Shuri-te (Jul 18, 2003)

IsshinRyuKarateGirl,

The thing I hate most about the martial arts is that rank gives obnoxious people authorization to be mean-spirited and treat lower ranks any way they see fit.

You are probably right. You have no authority. You are probably not going to get anywhere talking with him. Perhaps you could approach a high dan or the Sensei. But perhaps it would be awkward to bring it up. If you still want to do something,  there is always the indirect route. 

If I were in your position, I might type up a short statement in simple English saying how frustrated I was becoming. I would say that I go to the dojo to relieve stress, not get more of it. I might also mention that at times this person has made me think about quitting the system and going to another school. Then I would put it in a typed envelope and mail it to my Sensei. I would make sure that it was written in a way that could be attributed to any number of students. 

FYI, There is a discussion on honesty and integrity in the *General Martial Arts Talk* forum that you might want to read. I have complained about the problem of rank and ego there as well. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9065&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 

On another topic, are you from upstate, perhaps Rochester?? It's off-thread, so you can email me or send a private message if you like.


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## angrywhitepajamas (Jul 21, 2003)

I had decided not to be bothered bythis shodan's attitude and to let him but heads with the yondan and the nidans. Also scince there are only seven people of kyu rank in the dojo, the dan ranks are expected to spend most of their time teaching what few lower ranks that we have. This rankled our new shodans idea of what a blackbelt should do.  So he left about a month ago complaining that our curriculum emphasizes the basics far too much.
He hasn't been back scince.
Don't know if I should be happy or sad or indiferent.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 21, 2003)

> The thing I hate most about the martial arts is that rank gives obnoxious people authorization to be mean-spirited and treat lower ranks any way they see fit.


 This statment is true of people in all ranks. I have seen schools that did not have a black belt other than the instructor, Yet the senior student or one of the senior students, would treat the new comers like dirt.  He/she would stop doing the drills he should have been doin to correct others all the while his technique stunk. It is/was the head instructors job to correct this poblem but the student would do it when the instructor was busy elsewhere, or he would varry the technique then telll the new person how wrong they where in what they did. 
Damn but I dislike these sneaky overblown egos. If if isnt your school though all you can do is point it out tactfuly to the instructor.


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## MJS (Jul 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *This statment is true of people in all ranks.
> 
> I agree with this 100%  I have seen this many times myself.  It not only happens with lower black belts, but also with higher ranked ones too.  A few things that they need to remember.
> ...


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## Shinzu (Jul 22, 2003)

true indeed.  it's not about being the best.  it's about helping others be the best they can be!  

where do you think you would be without your instructors????


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## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Jul 25, 2003)

MJS, 
I agree with you.  I have seen shodans that have ego inflations, but what frustrates me even more is the fact where I see people at almost every shiai that shouldn't be receiving the rank they are being given.  I am just appalled by one shodan who received his rank, but has no self control.  I was having a conversation with a few people about this person and they also agreed that he has no control.  I hate to be paired up with him to work on conditioning.  It's just pure hell.  A lot of people that have been in that situation also say that he just plain hurts you too much.

But, there will always be these types of people in every dojo I imagine, so all we can really do (unless we are higher rank than the issue-maker) is sit back and endure the pain they cause.

:fart:


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## MJS (Jul 26, 2003)

3 suggestions for you

1- Avoid this guy.  Dont work out with him.

2- Talk to your inst. about him.  Tell him/her that you dont want to workout with this person, and state your reasons.

3- If it continues and nobody seems to be doing anything about it, leave the school

MJS


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## IsshinryuKarateGirl (Jul 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *3 suggestions for you
> 
> 1- Avoid this guy.  Dont work out with him.
> ...



I would really hate giving up training in a great dojo as mine just because of some @$$hole.  I have talked to one of my instructors who always is teaching my class nowadays and he's trying to do the best he can with the situation.  I do see where my instructor tries to get this person as far away from me and some other people who hate him and I only work with this person only when I necessarily have to.


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## twendkata71 (Jul 15, 2006)

*We call a shodan an advance beginner. This happens a lot. The first time they start wearing that black belt. That usually wears off when reality kicks in and a more advanced black belt  takes the ego out of them. *






			
				angrywhitepajamas said:
			
		

> How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
> (Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)


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## karateka (Jul 18, 2006)

this is quite a problem, many people from my dojo after 6+ years of training get thier shodan and quit because they think they are good enougth. with karate you will never be good enougth because as long as you can improve, you are not good enougth.

to remove this invincibility element, the day after you get your shodan, in my kumite dojo , 5+ senior black belts fight you simultaniously without holding back. i remember my initiation fight quite well and it showed that there is alot of work to be done. I have observed this ego inflation , it affects teenagers more than most, however they arent spared from an initiation fight.


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## Grenadier (Jul 18, 2006)

In every dojo / dojang where I've trained, I've been fortunate to see that most (not all; I'll cover that later) of the Shodan yudansha don't have an ego problem, or at least they don't after training in their first yudansha class.  

Sure, it's great that they got to this level, and they should be proud that they accomplished this, but now they have to adjust to going from the big fish in the little pond, to the small fish in a vast ocean.  Once they start training with the other, more advanced yudansha, then they realize that they have a long ways to go.  It's heartening for them to see this, since they want to work harder, and that the more advanced yudansha will work even harder, too, so they can serve as good examples.  

Now, is this the norm everywhere?  Of course not.  Even at the above mentioned places, there were still some individuals who saw that getting Shodan became the ultimate end of things.  Some would simply quit, being satisfied that they became a black belt, others might have developed arrogance, and come into their first yudansha class with an attitude unsuitable for good progress.  Those with the bad attitude would usually wisen up pretty quickly, if they wanted to stay, though.


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## karateka (Jul 18, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> some individuals who saw that getting Shodan became the ultimate end of things .


 

i agree, and i believe it is the senseis duty to try to get thier students to understand the true meaning of karate and that it begins at shodan, not ends at shodan. 

i have seen one too many good martial artists quit because of a lack of attitude. i wish i had the physique of some of these people and yet they leave all they could achieve aside.


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## WyldFya (Jul 21, 2006)

angrywhitepajamas said:
			
		

> How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
> (Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)



Sorry if this has been said already, I didn't take the time to read the entire thread.

 If you are of lower rank it is never your place to correct those above you.  If you are not a black belt you should not generally correct any student, as you have not yet mastered the basics.  Also, commonly if you are not the black belts teacher, or one of those that helped in training this person common respect for other blackbelts would be to not point out the flaw in front of others of lower rank, but among other blackbelts.  However, it is the job of the senior blackbelts to remind the baby blackbelt that he has just finished the tutorial, and is now ready to play the real game.  Achieving a blackbelt is nothing more than saying I have mastered the basics, and am now ready to learn.


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## WyldFya (Jul 21, 2006)

It is easy to forget, and even easier to forget the more advanced you become, but we all must be respectful of those that are higher ranking than us.  Right or wrong they did achieve a level that you have not yet acquired.  It is hard, especially when you know they are wrong, but it is a very disrespectful thing to correct those that are higher ranking.  Also, it is disrespectful to correct fellow blackbelts, even of other styles, in front of students.


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## Blindside (Jul 21, 2006)

WyldFya said:
			
		

> It is easy to forget, and even easier to forget the more advanced you become, but we all must be respectful of those that are higher ranking than us. Right or wrong they did achieve a level that you have not yet acquired. It is hard, especially when you know they are wrong, but it is a very disrespectful thing to correct those that are higher ranking. Also, it is disrespectful to correct fellow blackbelts, even of other styles, in front of students.


 
Blackbelts aren't gods, they are human and quite falliable.  If someone is teaching something truly wrong then it is your obligation to point it out.  Otherwise you are placing the ego of the instructor over the welfare and education of the student, and that is just WRONG. 

Lamont


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## WyldFya (Jul 21, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Blackbelts aren't gods, they are human and quite falliable.  If someone is teaching something truly wrong then it is your obligation to point it out.  Otherwise you are placing the ego of the instructor over the welfare and education of the student, and that is just WRONG.
> 
> Lamont


It traditional karate it is disrespectful to correct those that have a higher rank than you. Regardless of whether or not they are correct is not important.  You have not attained the rank they have, therefore you theoretically should not know as much as them.  If they are doing things wrong the person that promotes them will not allow them to go farther without fixing the problem.  If you notice it and they don't that is there problem, and you will eventually surpass them.  To show another martial artist disrespect is dishonorable, and wrong.  Bring it up to a higher ranking member, but do not approach it yourself.  Even if you say they are doing it wrong, not many will listen to someone of lower rank.  Is this ideal? no.  Is this perfect? no.  Just remember to respect those that have come before you, those that will come after you, and those that helped you to get where you are today.


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## Grenadier (Jul 21, 2006)

WyldFya said:
			
		

> it is a very disrespectful thing to correct those that are higher ranking. Also, it is disrespectful to correct fellow blackbelts, even of other styles, in front of students.


 
I agree strongly on this matter.  

It's one thing if you have a discussion after the class is over, and in private, and talk about such things.  If anything, a wise teacher who has made a mistake, will be more than willing to listen to such things, in a polite conversation.  

However, openly questioning someone in front of the other students certainly shows disrespect.  Even if the intentions were good, there's a right time and place for them, and the classroom floor is certainly not that.


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## karateka (Jul 21, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> I agree strongly on this matter.
> 
> It's one thing if you have a discussion after the class is over, and in private, and talk about such things. If anything, a wise teacher who has made a mistake, will be more than willing to listen to such things, in a polite conversation.
> 
> However, openly questioning someone in front of the other students certainly shows disrespect. Even if the intentions were good, there's a right time and place for them, and the classroom floor is certainly not that.


 
i also agree, but more importantly after the situation has been resolved, the students if needed must be corrected, for if you teach a student something incorrect, and they perform that mistake or teach it onto someone else, it is your mistake, not thiers.


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## Shodan (Jul 21, 2006)

Oh good......I was afraid this topic was about me!!  (Topic Title/User Name)


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## Blindside (Jul 21, 2006)

WyldFya said:
			
		

> *It traditional karate it is disrespectful to correct those that have a higher rank than you. Regardless of whether or not they are correct is not important. *You have not attained the rank they have, therefore you theoretically should not know as much as them. If they are doing things wrong the person that promotes them will not allow them to go farther without fixing the problem. If you notice it and they don't that is there problem, and you will eventually surpass them. *To show another martial artist disrespect is dishonorable, and wrong.* Bring it up to a higher ranking member, but do not approach it yourself. *Even if you say they are doing it wrong, not many will listen to someone of lower rank.* Is this ideal? no. Is this perfect? no. Just remember to respect those that have come before you, those that will come after you, and those that helped you to get where you are today.


 
Correcting someone is not "disrespect" it is a correction.  If an instructor will not listen to someone of lower rank, then THEY have the ego problem, and it probably needs to be stepped on.  

While I would probably address it after the class/session/seminar rest assured I would address it.  The proper instruction of my students is my priority, not to salve the bruised ego of someone who has been doing this longer than me.

I've certainly been corrected before by students, and I don't think I've ever taken it as disrespect.  The proper transmission of the Art is important, not the egos of those of us who teach it.

Lamont


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## WyldFya (Jul 21, 2006)

Correcting someone is not disrespect, however when someone of lower rank corrects a higher ranking person it is disrespect.  In a perfect world, the higher ranking person should know more, however, that isn't always the case.  I personally feel that making a correction to a senior member is disrespectful, but I personally do not take offense to it.  I would never correct my teacher in front of a class.  I might ask him about it after class, but not during.  I'm not saying that he should not address the problem, but that there is a time and a place that will get it done, and still show respect.  If you question a teachers technique in class, immediately the teacher will get defensive, or the students will start to look at him with less admiration in my experience.  

Example: You are in the military, and your CO tells you to drop.  Do you question him?  No.  Why?  

Theoretically the person that has been in a discipline longer has fine tuned their skills more.   They may see, or know, something that you did not.


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## searcher (Jul 21, 2006)

Sad to say but this is more and more common every day.   We had some problems with a dojo that my wife and I trained in for a few years.   I trained her in addition to what she was doing in the class and she became the target of a few over-inflated shodans.   The way she fixed it was to knock out two of them.   It showed what she was capable of and they eased back a bit, but in the end we left.


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## eyebeams (Jul 21, 2006)

angrywhitepajamas said:
			
		

> How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
> (Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)



If he can kick my *** with his bad form, then the form aint so bad.


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 21, 2006)

With the sprouting of Mc Dojo's this is more and more of a common problem.  Back in the good ol days you would get your *** kicked royally upon receiving your shodan by all the senior students, sort of to remind you of your place in society.  Classes were also taught by the instructor while assisted by one assistant, usually the highest ranked belt attending the class; while the highest ranked would participate in class like any other student, he or she could point out flaws in other students and help discipline if need be, but that was it, everyone else was there to take the class and that was the end of that.


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## Blindside (Jul 21, 2006)

WyldFya said:
			
		

> Correcting someone is not disrespect, however when someone of lower rank corrects a higher ranking person it is disrespect. In a perfect world, the higher ranking person should know more, however, that isn't always the case. I personally feel that making a correction to a senior member is disrespectful, but I personally do not take offense to it. I would never correct my teacher in front of a class. I might ask him about it after class, but not during. I'm not saying that he should not address the problem, but that there is a time and a place that will get it done, and still show respect. If you question a teachers technique in class, immediately the teacher will get defensive, or the students will start to look at him with less admiration in my experience.
> 
> Example: You are in the military, and your CO tells you to drop. Do you question him? No. Why?
> 
> Theoretically the person that has been in a discipline longer has fine tuned their skills more. They may see, or know, something that you did not.


 
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.  However, I do not consider a military chain of command to be the equivalent to the organizational structure of a civilian organization.  

Lamont


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## Blindside (Jul 21, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> Back in the good ol days you would get your *** kicked royally upon receiving your shodan by all the senior students, sort of to remind you of your place in society.


 
Back in the good old days?  Was the good old days 6 years ago?  'Cause this is sounding awful familiar.  

Lamont


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## twendkata71 (Jul 22, 2006)

I got that before and after my shodan promotion. The night the week before in class. The senior black belts ran me through the mill. Then, the week after.  It was rough. It did keep my ego in check. 





			
				Blindside said:
			
		

> Back in the good old days? Was the good old days 6 years ago? 'Cause this is sounding awful familiar.
> 
> Lamont


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## WyldFya (Jul 22, 2006)

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> With the sprouting of Mc Dojo's this is more and more of a common problem. Back in the good ol days you would get your *** kicked royally upon receiving your shodan by all the senior students, sort of to remind you of your place in society. Classes were also taught by the instructor while assisted by one assistant, usually the highest ranked belt attending the class; while the highest ranked would participate in class like any other student, he or she could point out flaws in other students and help discipline if need be, but that was it, everyone else was there to take the class and that was the end of that.


 
Back in the good old days?  That style of teaching is still out there.  My teachers school, my shihan, and seiko shihan all teach like that as well as myself.  It may be uncommon, but there are still those out there that teach in this way.  I myself am very much so into preserving the old ways of teaching.


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## WyldFya (Jul 22, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. However, I do not consider a military chain of command to be the equivalent to the organizational structure of a civilian organization.
> 
> Lamont


 
I agree and disagree.  I agree that not all are taught in a militaristic style, but it is a very traditional way to teach.  My teacher actually trained the Navy seals in hand to hand combat.  So I got a very strict style of teaching.


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## WyldFya (Jul 22, 2006)

twendkata71 said:
			
		

> I got that before and after my shodan promotion. The night the week before in class. The senior black belts ran me through the mill. Then, the week after. It was rough. It did keep my ego in check.


 
Haha, I got the same thing, however we didn't have any blackbelts at the time other than my teacher and his son, so I got it from my teacher and his son who was a nidan at the time.


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## Carol (Jul 22, 2006)

If Sensei promotes someone with "bad form", that is Sensei's responsibility, not a karate-ka's responsibility.  A karate-ka must realize that being distracted by mediocrity (or worse...) does nothing to improve their own performance.  This is true inside the dojo or outside.

Ego problems are another story. Everybody can have an ego...student, instructor, black belt, coloured belt.  To me, ego problems are more of an indication of a class with an profound lack of focus.  It does't matter whether it's the high schoolers yapping away, karate-kas that would rather complain than train, or dans prancing about in self-importance...an unfocused class is an unfocused class.  That is unacceptable.  

Whether one is a karate sensei, a hockey coach, a Biology professor, or a math tutor - an instructor of ANY kind must first and formost keep class on target and students focused.  No exceptions.  To do otherwise would be dishonourable the role the instructor has earned and disrespecful to the students that have pledged their faith, respect, efforts, commitment, money, and time.  

If a Sensei finds a karate-ka to be disrespectful for inisting upon a focused class, that is a Sensei that is not worthy of respect to begin with.

Hope I haven't said anything disrespecftul or insulting to the good folks here.  Thanks for letting me butt in  :asian:


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## WyldFya (Jul 22, 2006)

Very well said Carol Kaur.  I agree completely.  Thanks for putting into words what I couldn't.


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## Kacey (Jul 22, 2006)

Receiving a black belt in any art is an achievement, and one should be proud of it... having said that, when I received my I Dan in TKD, I was told that cho-dan meant "baby black belt" (said with a smile... but still... at no time was I ever under the impression that black belt was an end in itself).  As others have said, at black belt, you are finally ready to learn something beyond the basics.  Here's another comparison - at white belt, TKD (and, in general, any MA) is 95% physical, and 5% mental; that is, the skills one is learning are primarily physical, through demonstration and practice, with relatively little explanation given as to why something is done a particular way.  As one improves in skills, and is promoted up the ranks, this shifts, until at black belt the emphasis is primarily mental, rather than physical.  There are several reasons for this: 

- one, it is a sad fact of life that, past a certain age, no matter what you do, your body is going to stop getting better, and will begin to get worse, so you *must *get smarter, because you aren't going to get faster!

- two, as has been mentioned, the senior student present in a class is expected to help the instructor - that means the student must begin to understand the techniques being taught well enough to critique and teach them, which requires a higher level of understanding than is required to perform them.

- three, without understanding of techniques, they are less useful.  I could take any lower belt in my class and teach him/her one of the patterns I learned for IV Dan - but that won't make the student a VI Dan, it will make the person a color belt who knows a senior pattern.  Instruction in MAs follows a sequence that builds on itself, because that helps students to understand the use of each technique, without which techniques cannot be applied in a meaningful fashion.  Different organizations may teach the same techniques in a different sequence, but there is a reason for the sequence chosen, and until one reaches BB and has learned a reasonable variety of techniques, and can look back at what has been learned and how it inter-relates, this sequence is hard to explain, and often isn't explained.  At BB ranks, the rationale behind the sequence can be taught, because the student now has enough experience to understand how the sequence builds on itself.

Black belt is a beginning - not an ending - and students who achieve the rank of BB need to be aware that I Dan is a signpost on a longer journey, not a destination in itself.  The ones who think they have made it by reaching BB have missed something along their journey - and are more likely to drop out in the year or so after testing, especially if they are not allowed to rest on their laurels by their seniors, as some expect.  Having set their sights on the destination of BB, they need to find a new goal - a higher rank, instructor status, etc.


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## twendkata71 (Aug 4, 2006)

*I remember the first time I competed as a shodan in the mens black belt middleweight division. It was a real eye opener. If I had any ego or misconceptions about the fact that Shodan is just a new beginning to my training. It was quickly put to rest at the end of my first round of official black belt competition.  *


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## twendkata71 (Aug 4, 2006)

*I remember the first time I competed as a shodan in the mens black belt middleweight division. It was a real eye opener. If I had any ego or misconceptions about the fact that Shodan is just a new beginning to my training. It was quickly put to rest at the end of my first round of official black belt competition. *


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## chinto (May 26, 2007)

angrywhitepajamas said:


> How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility and atrocious in form?? Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions. And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
> (Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)


 

No, but our system has a rank called "shodan ho"  and it is a minumum of 1 year probationary shodan rank. if they train and do not get an inflatted ego and other problems they become a full shodan.  If they do not, then they stay shodan ho, and if its a situation like you discribe, they are demoted to ich kyu or even back to san kyu.


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## Chizikunbo (May 26, 2007)

angrywhitepajamas said:


> How do any of you deal with a member of the dojo who just recieved his shodan and has become convinced of his invincibility  and atrocious in form??  Im interested in hearing upper and lower rank perspectives and opinions.  And does any one have any sugestions for politly pointing out those self same problems before they (or he) becomes the catalyst of dojo politics??
> (Im curious because Im not the most perceptive person around)



This is natural among almost all new dan holders. The best you can do is to remind the student that BB is only the beggining of REAL study, it is like going into college, you have the basic skills of the art, but are nowhere near true and accurate understanding...Alot of schools used to practice BB hazing and such, which is not good for students development; rather show the student of what they have left to learn, because true mastery lies not in what you can show off, but what you know you cannot...that is meant to be cryptic, in the tone my teacher once told me, interpret it as you may ;-)
--josh


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

Chizikunbo said:


> This is natural among almost all new dan holders. The best you can do is to remind the student that BB is only the beggining of REAL study, it is like going into college, you have the basic skills of the art, but are nowhere near true and accurate understanding...Alot of schools used to practice BB hazing and such, which is not good for students development; rather show the student of what they have left to learn, because true mastery lies not in what you can show off, but what you know you cannot...that is meant to be cryptic, in the tone my teacher once told me, interpret it as you may ;-)
> --josh


 

well our 2 last shodan ho people.. one male and one female have not had that problem at all. they have known that they have much to learn yet...( i have even more) but if they had that threat of retern to kyu rank would have been a good insentive to not get a swelled head.


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## Sukerkin (May 27, 2007)

In the end, the likelyhood of such a situation arising depends in large part upon the sensei.  

As has been touched on by several in this thread, martial arts training starts off with an emphasis on the physical but as the grades are surpassed then the mental and emotional become more important.

A sensei, who is not merely running his/her students through the belt-mill to make money, will have a good idea of the state of development of his higher kyu grades (after training them for three years or more) and if someone is not ready for that step to shodan then that person will not be made to take that step.  Even in a commercial school such restraint can happen, as with an example I gave elsewhere about a brown belt (in my old Lau Gar school) with terrible attitude problems who was held back from black until she conquered those problems.


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## Chizikunbo (May 27, 2007)

chinto said:


> well our 2 last shodan ho people.. one male and one female have not had that problem at all. they have known that they have much to learn yet...( i have even more) but if they had that threat of retern to kyu rank would have been a good insentive to not get a swelled head.



Note: "almost"
Sukerkin: I would generally agree, but I feel that the very first principle that should be taught it martial etiquette...is is the foundation from which all further training should be (must be) built on...Without the proper attitude and respect one cannot progress through any classical school.
--josh


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## chinto (May 27, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> In the end, the likelyhood of such a situation arising depends in large part upon the sensei.
> 
> As has been touched on by several in this thread, martial arts training starts off with an emphasis on the physical but as the grades are surpassed then the mental and emotional become more important.
> 
> A sensei, who is not merely running his/her students through the belt-mill to make money, will have a good idea of the state of development of his higher kyu grades (after training them for three years or more) and if someone is not ready for that step to shodan then that person will not be made to take that step. Even in a commercial school such restraint can happen, as with an example I gave elsewhere about a brown belt (in my old Lau Gar school) with terrible attitude problems who was held back from black until she conquered those problems.


 

I have to agree with this. In that any Sensei has an obligation ( even giri) to not make a 'frankenstine' student by giving the techniques and rank that they are not mentaly and or physicialy ready for. this is why my sensei is very carefull about who he promotes at every grade, but especialy green belt and above.  He will NOT promote some one to shodan ho if they do not have a real handle on their ego and their head is not rapped around the fact that all that means is its time to start over and look at things and see if from the prespective of the new position and rank they see what they missed before as a kyu rank studen.


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## Em MacIntosh (May 28, 2007)

Shodan is the perfect time to drop whatever remaining ego you can.  I found that the more humble I become and the less impressive I want to be, the more I take things on with the "serious sword".  I think shodan can individually find their own meaning for the BB, but I think it means you're serious about learning your art at least.  In our school, it seems like almost every BB has a different take on kata, stances, technique etc., occasionally conradictory.  Undaunted, I learn it each way I'm taught, then I develop my way.  Our head sensei and owner of the dojo is a kyoshi for the canadian system of our karate, so we all treat his word basically as law and he has the final say on what a technique is for or the correct way of doing it.  Every once in a while he has to set everything straight and put us all on the same page, but I apreciate the fluidity as I'm taught many possibilities by the other BB's perspectives.  We don't have room for ignorance and without respect, humbleness and seriousness, there is no way to achieve shodan.


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## chinto (Aug 21, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> Shodan is the perfect time to drop whatever remaining ego you can. I found that the more humble I become and the less impressive I want to be, the more I take things on with the "serious sword". I think shodan can individually find their own meaning for the BB, but I think it means you're serious about learning your art at least. In our school, it seems like almost every BB has a different take on kata, stances, technique etc., occasionally conradictory. Undaunted, I learn it each way I'm taught, then I develop my way. Our head sensei and owner of the dojo is a kyoshi for the canadian system of our karate, so we all treat his word basically as law and he has the final say on what a technique is for or the correct way of doing it. Every once in a while he has to set everything straight and put us all on the same page, but I apreciate the fluidity as I'm taught many possibilities by the other BB's perspectives. We don't have room for ignorance and without respect, humbleness and seriousness, there is no way to achieve shodan.


 
sounds like a good way to do it.. I try to empty my cup each class.. not sure I do as good a job at it as I would wish.. but I sure try..


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