# Wado-ryu watered down version of shotokan ?



## datisstom

I'm new to MA and started wado karate a couple of weeks ago. I am starting to have my doubts about this style however. 
Before joining any MA school I joined some trainings, and I did a shotokan training as well. I know wado has its origins in shotokan and jiu-jitsu, but I noticed a couple of things. First, shotokan seems much tougher than wado. Second, in shotokan the karatekas did body hardening, wich we don't do at all when practicing wado. Third, Lyoto Machida. I think Machida wouldn't stand a chance in MMA if he had been practicing wado. 

It seems to me that wado is just a watered down version of the real karate, which is shotokan/kyokushin. Am I right thinking this?


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## Cyriacus

One important thing to think first:
Is it the Style, or the Instructor?

Because while it may be a Wado Ryu Dojo, the Teacher may not be adequately teaching Wado Ryu. Look around, go watch some other Systems Dojos. It may be that this particular Dojo is whats watered down, and thats what Id be looking at.

Also, Shotokan and Kyokushin are so vastly different, that You really shouldnt be comparing one system to them both


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## datisstom

Cyriacus said:


> One important thing to think first:
> Is it the Style, or the Instructor?
> 
> Because while it may be a Wado Ryu Dojo, the Teacher may not be adequately teaching Wado Ryu. Look around, go watch some other Systems Dojos. It may be that this particular Dojo is whats watered down, and thats what Id be looking at.
> 
> Also, Shotokan and Kyokushin are so vastly different, that You really shouldnt be comparing one system to them both



I'm not talking about my dojo. I'm talking about the style in general.


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## Cyriacus

datisstom said:


> I'm not talking about my dojo. I'm talking about the style in general.


Well, that was impossible to tell from Your post.

Working on that;
Shotokan is more into Linear Movement, and They use harder Blocks.
Wado Ryu is based more on Evasion, by comparison. And uses Circular, as oppose to Linear, movement.
Wado Ryu has more Technical work in it, and has more 'moves' overall (Im brainfarting for a better word. I hate saying Techniques).
Shotokan has less, but is perhaps better at the lesser number as a result.

There is no clean cut answer - Pick which one interests You more, really. Because Theyre both focusing on different things. Much like how Shotokan incorporates plentiful Blocking, where Kyokushin thends to use Guards instead.
Wado Ryu isnt watered down - Its a different approach.


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## datisstom

Thanks for your clearly explained answer. Another question pops up in my head:

In my school, the white belts practice the same techniques as the black/brown belts. Isn't it strange that we don't practice the techniques and kumité we have to know for our first exam?


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## Cyriacus

datisstom said:


> Thanks for your clearly explained answer. Another question pops up in my head:
> 
> In my school, the white belts practice the same techniques as the black/brown belts. Isn't it strange that we don't practice the techniques and kumité we have to know for our first exam?


It depends.
What are the Techniques?


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## datisstom

Well I don't know their names yet. We usually just start doing a warm-up, then line up and do those techniques. Then we practice blocks on each other (without really hitting). Sometimes we spar for a couple of minutes at the end.


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## Cyriacus

datisstom said:


> Well I don't know their names yet. We usually just start doing a warm-up, then line up and do those techniques. Then we practice blocks on each other (without really hitting). Sometimes we spar for a couple of minutes at the end.


If what Youre saying is that all the people of all the Ranks practice the same stuff together, thats fine.
Ultimately, They will get You up to scratch for furthering Rank. But when everyones practicing the same stuff, its because that same stuff is the Bread and Butter of the System. I imagine for Wado Ryu, that might well be some simple blocks, straight punches, and round/front kicks?


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## Bill Mattocks

datisstom said:


> Well I don't know their names yet. We usually just start doing a warm-up, then line up and do those techniques. Then we practice blocks on each other (without really hitting). Sometimes we spar for a couple of minutes at the end.



I started in Wado-Ryu in Colorado in the 1980's.  That's what we did as well.  I only stayed a few months, and didn't take up martial arts training again for over 25 years.  The style I practice now, we do the same; except if we practice a kata (form) that the newbie does not know, they are taken to the side and either shown it, or they work on what they do know.

All classes are different.  I do not think it is necessarily a precept of the school or style; but perhaps of the teacher or the size of the class.  

In our dojo, black belts frequently practice self-defense techniques with white belts.  That's because black belts have (or should have) the control to not hurt the white belt, and white belts have no control but are often strong and eager and can hurt others; black belts are expected to defend themselves or be hurt (and it's their own fault if they are hurt).  So they are a good match for each other.  Two inexperienced people whacking away at each other a) might hurt each other because neither has any control or the ability to properly defend themselves and b) will practice the techniques without correction, reinforcing bad techniques.


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## Chris Parker

datisstom said:


> I'm new to MA and started wado karate a couple of weeks ago. I am starting to have my doubts about this style however.
> Before joining any MA school I joined some trainings, and I did a shotokan training as well. I know wado has its origins in shotokan and jiu-jitsu, but I noticed a couple of things. First, shotokan seems much tougher than wado. Second, in shotokan the karatekas did body hardening, wich we don't do at all when practicing wado. Third, Lyoto Machida. I think Machida wouldn't stand a chance in MMA if he had been practicing wado.
> 
> It seems to me that wado is just a watered down version of the real karate, which is shotokan/kyokushin. Am I right thinking this?



No, you're not.

Sadly, that's all there is to it. You just might not have found the school for you, or you may have some personal beliefs about Wado Ryu's movement and what you consider "strong", but that's about all I can say from this post. The idea that Lyoto Machida wouldn't have been as successful if he trained in Wado Ryu instead of Shotokan is honestly not something that can be proven as having any basis in anything other than a value judgement.

When it comes to the entire class doing the same thing, that would tell me that what you're doing at that point is probably the kihon (basics) which should be continually polished. Without getting them right, you might not be able to do the other techniques for your grading.

But you're really just very new to this. If you have concerns about what you're learning, I'd suggest talking to your instructor about it (respectfully!), and if it comes down to it, looking around at other schools to see if there's another one nearby that fits your personality more.


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## Tez3

I would say that it's the instructor/school that's 'easier' not the style. I've been doing Wado for many years and it's far from an easy style. As has been mentioned the fact that higher grades train with lower grades doesn't mean the style is an easy one. Everyone in every style learns basics, they are well...the basis for everything. You can't learn a style in a couple of months, there is a huge lot to learn yet and it takes years.  A couple of weeks training is nothing I'm afraid and any place worth it's salt won't have you don't anything more than the very basics and yes often the higher grades will be in there with you. You won't be doing body conditioning as a newbie of two weeks!
On the subject of MMA, Wado because the founder was a jujitsu master also contains many takedowns, throws and even grappling movements. The level of sparring is set by the club/school not the style. All styles can be full contatc, not style is 'easy' if taught properly. If you think Wado is easy and Shotokan hard then you need to blame either the instructors or yourself for wanting to run before you can even crawl. The style isn't at fault, the teaching may be or the expectations of the students may be at fault.


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## Grenadier

datisstom said:


> Well I don't know their names yet. We usually just start doing a warm-up, then line up and do those techniques. Then we practice blocks on each other (without really hitting). Sometimes we spar for a couple of minutes at the end.



This is not unusual at all, and would also be commonplace in a good Shotokan dojo as well.  If a sensei doesn't make his students do their fundamental basic techniques in most of the classes, beginner or advanced, then I'd be less sure of their ability to build on top of what they know, since it's the fundamental techniques that make someone good, not a kata sequence, or a kumite strategy. 

If students have good basic techniques, I find it quite easy to teach them the more advanced kata, as well as advanced kumite strategies and techniques, since I know that their fundamentals aren't going to be a limitation.  If, on the other hand, they don't have good basic techniques, then teaching them the advanced material is usually going to be a waste of time.  

Both systems would work fine in a fight, although each system is different in its own way.  In fact, when I see the various Wado Ryu schools compete at the USA-NKF regional tournaments, they do very well as a whole, in the Kumite divisions.  

Wado Ryu incorporates more of the "softer" techniques in their training, since a lot of this comes from the Shinto Yoshin Ryu Ju Jutsu that Ohtsuka Shihan had already studied.  There are a lot of things going on in the technique that the neophyte's eyes can't see just yet.  As you gain more experience, you'll get a better understanding of what is going on.


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## chinto

not sure, not that knowledgeable of the style in question. I can say that I much prefer the Okinawan systems to what I have seen of Shotokan. I see more options and technique taught by the Okinawan systems, and Karate came from Okinawa. SO do you argue that Shotokan is a watered down version of Okinawan Shorin Ryu, as Funikoshi sensei was a student of  Itosu Sensei?


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## Manny

Well not a karate ka but maybe I can contribute. With only minimal exposure to teh Wado Ryu Karate you are doing you can't have a good view or feeling abou it. For the things I've been studying about karate ryus or stiles WADO is a mix up of Shotokan and Ju-Jutsu and I think is a good misture. Take for example myself, I am a second degrre black belt in TKD and I would love to learn some aikido to round up my TKD that in some things is like Shotokan Karate.

If a Wado Ryu Dojo will be in my city I would practice it.

I think the best is yet to come, stick with Wado Ryu a little longer, scalate in the Kyup ladder and see if workinmg for you if not then leave and see for something else, I think Wado Ryu can be an exelente self defense martial art.

Manny


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## Black Belt Jedi

It's not really the system that is watered down version of another system, it can be the instructor not teaching the system the right way. Or maybe that system is not for you.


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## teekin

I do the more circular Wado type and we certainly ( by we I mean the collective, not Me. I see little value in pounding the edge of my hand into a woden post) do body hardening. The strikes can leave nasty bruises and sting and the blocks while circular, can hurt like the dickens too. It depends who you work with and how fast/hard you go. Even when working Kata with a partner it can get owwey if someone goes a bit overboard. I think the delivery of the style depends on the teacher, just like any other Martial Art. The head instructor sets the tone. Perhaps this is why it is more important to find a teacher you really mesh with than an Art you fall in love with. The wrong instructor will have you repeatedly smashing your head against the nearest cement wall in frustration, while the right teacher will have you singing in your car and bouncing into/ out of class. At least until you have a solid hold on the fundementals.  <<<But that is what takes the longest and is the most frustrating part of learning any new skill. 

Lori


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## SuperFLY

datisstom said:


> Second, in shotokan the karatekas did body hardening, wich we don't do at all when practicing wado.


I don't do much 'conditioning' in my training and i train shotokan. i might do pressups on my fists on hardwood floors and i can do other conditioning but its not mandatory.

its more often than not the club not the style that these things differ.



datisstom said:


> Well I don't know their names yet. We usually  just start doing a warm-up, then line up and do those techniques. Then  we practice blocks on each other (without really hitting). Sometimes we  spar for a couple of minutes at the end.



makes perfect sense to me.. if you wanted to train, you'd want to train with the most experienced person there and that would be the black belts.

in our classes if we are ever asked to pair up we expect the lower grades to immediately go and find a higher grade. i wouldnt go pair up with another black belt unless there were no lower grades left.

as said above, we have the control and experience a beginner wouldnt have, and they can learn from our technique and style. if 2 beginners are going at it neither of them are sure whether they're doing it right or not. at least with a more senior student you have some confidence if you're doing what they're doing, its the right way 

in training yesterday we partnered up to do some basic kumite and my first partner (we swapped partners after each set) was a 6 year old kid a 1/3rd my size. ok so i dont get a lot out of it but i can help him along and correct any mistakes he's making allowing our instructor to keep the whole class addressed. if it helps the beginner/younger students then thats all good 

we get our proper training at the black belt classes, a lot of the time im now just at the other classes to lend a hand and teach a bit or just to set an example to the others.

i cant comment much on wado unfortunately as i've never had any experience with it


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## chinto

ok I asked a question expecting the answer that is correct. Shotokan is not a watered down version of Okinawan Shorin Ryu. Funikoshi modified Okinawan Karate to partly differentiate it from Jujitsu, and to fit the Japanese culture and mindset. It is neither better or worse, but different.  wado ryu I do not know that much about, I do understand it came from a shotokan practitioner. what he changed and did not I am not sure.
But, All Karate has something to offer.  the few bits of video I have seen of wado ryu it did not impress me. but it was sport sparring and they apparently have their own set of rules. I will say they seemed very tough men.  

all that said, the question seems more accurately to be " is wado ryu the system for you?" and it sounds as if perhaps the answer is no.  but you must decide.


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## Tez3

chinto said:


> ok I asked a question expecting the answer that is correct. Shotokan is not a watered down version of Okinawan Shorin Ryu. Funikoshi modified Okinawan Karate to partly differentiate it from Jujitsu, and to fit the Japanese culture and mindset. It is neither better or worse, but different. wado ryu I do not know that much about, I do understand it came from a shotokan practitioner. what he changed and did not I am not sure.
> But, All Karate has something to offer. the few bits of video I have seen of wado ryu it did not impress me. but it was sport sparring and they apparently have their own set of rules. I will say they seemed very tough men.
> 
> all that said, the question seems more accurately to be " is wado ryu the system for you?" and it sounds as if perhaps the answer is no. but you must decide.



Not all Wado people do the 'sport' sparring thing, ours was full on, again it comes down to what particular clubs and particular instructors do. Judging Wado Ryu on a couple of videos is pointless, you could do the same with many styles and get the wrong impression. I would say more 'is this instructor for you' rather than this style and to be honest I don't think the OP had given enough time or had learnt enough to make any comparisions with any other style, I think he will always be disappointed.


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## Sojobo

Hello,

I think if you chance upon a good Wado club, it will be clear that actually, Shotokan and Wado have very little in common.

It's wrongly assumed that Wado comes from Shotokan - It doesn't!

If Wado comes from anything it comes from Shindo Yoshin-ryu, but even that is over simplifying things.

Otsuka sensei is after all famed for saying "Okinawan karate is to Wado as a pinch of salt is to a stew" or words along those lines.

Of course dojo will vary, but be careful not to generalise.

Sojobo


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## chinto

Tez3 said:


> Not all Wado people do the 'sport' sparring thing, ours was full on, again it comes down to what particular clubs and particular instructors do. Judging Wado Ryu on a couple of videos is pointless, you could do the same with many styles and get the wrong impression. I would say more 'is this instructor for you' rather than this style and to be honest I don't think the OP had given enough time or had learnt enough to make any comparisions with any other style, I think he will always be disappointed.




that is why I said all i had seen of it made me wonder if that was a good example. I think you should have found you like some of what your learning very early on. if you have not, then perhaps not the style for you. but again that was the question he has to decide, not you or I.


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> I think if you chance upon a good Wado club, it will be clear that actually, Shotokan and Wado have very little in common.



That's not been my experience.  I've trained at a Wado school headed by one of the top Japanese masters (now living in the United States) and Wado and Shotokan seem very similar to me.  

In answer to the OP, his post is interesting because I had to quit training for a little while because of a shoulder injury.  Now I'm looking to get back into it and am a bit torn.  I've been visiting a Shotokan class and it has some elements that I can appreciate.  I think I might fit in with the people there a bit better.  However, the Wado class is more intense and, it seems to me, those guys have a better understanding of how to actually apply their techniques in a fight.  

So MY experience has been:  Wado is fierce . . . Shotokan is more chill.

But as has already been said here, it's really about the school and the instructor.


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## Sojobo

SPX said:


> That's not been my experience.  I've trained at a Wado school headed by one of the top Japanese masters (now living in the United States) and Wado and Shotokan seem very similar to me.
> 
> In answer to the OP, his post is interesting because I had to quit training for a little while because of a shoulder injury.  Now I'm looking to get back into it and am a bit torn.  I've been visiting a Shotokan class and it has some elements that I can appreciate.  I think I might fit in with the people there a bit better.  However, the Wado class is more intense and, it seems to me, those guys have a better understanding of how to actually apply their techniques in a fight.



I can see why the lay person might think the two look similar however the operating systems are completely different.

Did you practice Kihon Kumite at your dojo? If anything, these represent the DNA of Wado. You will not find anything that comes remotely close in a Shotokan dojo. 

These paired kata contain the core principles of Wado-ryu. They are also designed to impart the basic stratagems of fighting.

This is why perhaps your experience has been that Wado folk tend to be rather good at fighting!!

Sojobo


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## Instructor

OP, I can't comment on Wado or Shotokan, those aren't my styles.  But you've only been training for a couple of weeks.  You've just scratched the surface.  It takes years and years before you are even remotely qualified to evaluate a style.  It sounds to me like your instructor is trying to instill the fundamentals in beginners and polish/reinforce in the higher students.  I see nothing wrong here based on what you said about the style, the school, or your teacher.


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> Did you practice Kihon Kumite at your dojo? If anything, these represent the DNA of Wado. You will not find anything that comes remotely close in a Shotokan dojo.
> 
> These paired kata contain the core principles of Wado-ryu. They are also designed to impart the basic stratagems of fighting.




We did.  I didn't personally, because I got hurt before I got that far, but I saw other people doing it.

Maybe I'm speaking more broadly here, but a side kick in Wado looks like a side kick in Shotokan, the stances are similar (in fact, I visited an SKA Shotokan dojo, which tends to use higher stances than JKA dojos, and the stances looked nearly identitical), the blocks are similar, a lot of the movement is similar.  

So to me, Wado and Shotokan look far more similar than, say, Wado and WTF TKD, or Wado and Wing Chun, or Wado and Muay Thai.




Sojobo said:


> This is why perhaps your experience has been that Wado folk tend to be rather good at fighting!!
> 
> Sojobo



Could be! 

I think the flavor of this particular dojo has something to do with it as well.  It's apparently a little more toned down now than it used to be, but they would tell stories about the old days (the place has been around since the 70s when Sensei Osaka first moved to the US) when sparring regularly lead to bloody noses, disputes between students were sometimes settled with their fists on the dojo floor, and everyone would go out for beers together after class.  

Also, nearly everyone there is a black belt.  In any given class there was usually four or five black belts, a brown belt, sometimes one purple belt, and then me, the lone white belt.  I felt a little out of place.


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## SPX

Instructor said:


> I see nothing wrong here based on what you said about the style, the school, or your teacher.



It could also be though that the school just sucks.  I have a friend who started out in Wado when he was a kid.  He thought it was a joke.  Recently he looked to see if the place was still in business and found a website and some YouTube vids.  I took a look at them and he was right, the place is a joke.  Far too many karate schools are.  

So I would tell the OP that if the school he's been visiting looks anything like this, then he should run away fast:


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## Tez3

SPX said:


> It could also be though that the school just sucks. I have a friend who started out in Wado when he was a kid. He thought it was a joke. Recently he looked to see if the place was still in business and found a website and some YouTube vids. I took a look at them and he was right, the place is a joke. Far too many karate schools are.
> 
> So I would tell the OP that if the school he's been visiting looks anything like this, then he should run away fast:



I don't recognise that as being Wado especially some of the kicks that are more likely to be found in TKD. 
However the fact that a school is bad doesn't mean it's the style that makes it bad. bad schools are down to bad instructors. You can't blame Wado for the way those youngsters perform, it's the school, the instructors and whatever they teach.


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## Sojobo

My eyes were sick after watching that. Thank you, not....!!!


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## SPX

Tez3 said:


> I don't recognise that as being Wado especially some of the kicks that are more likely to be found in TKD.



There's clearly some supplementary material, but the teacher's background is Wado:

http://daviddeaton.com/history.html

 And that's how he sells it:

"Wado-Ryu:  Traditional Japanese Martial Art"

http://daviddeaton.com/karate.html

So the OP could be running into a similar situation.




Tez3 said:


> However the fact that a school is bad doesn't mean it's the style that makes it bad. bad schools are down to bad instructors. You can't blame Wado for the way those youngsters perform, it's the school, the instructors and whatever they teach.



That was exactly my point.


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> My eyes were sick after watching that. Thank you, not....!!!



Oh, c'mon . . . I know you loved it.


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## jks9199

Tez3 said:


> I don't recognise that as being Wado especially some of the kicks that are more likely to be found in TKD.
> However the fact that a school is bad doesn't mean it's the style that makes it bad. bad schools are down to bad instructors. You can't blame Wado for the way those youngsters perform, it's the school, the instructors and whatever they teach.



Or even that a particular demonstration exercise isn't wildly impressive.  The video is clearly some sort of graduation "showpiece."   Not wowed by what I saw, and I kind of wonder how many hours went into the practicing and choreography that could have been spent on solid training -- but it could also be the kid's program.  I'm not comfortable judging by the one demo...

Wado's got a history of being effective.  I'm far from an expert on the history of the various karate styles -- but I wouldn't call any of them simply a "watered down" version of another.


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## Tez3

SPX, when you posted you said your friend thought Wado was a joke, it's looked as if you were more or less agreeing.


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## Sojobo

SPX said:


> I think the flavor of this particular dojo has something to do with it as well.  It's apparently a little more toned down now than it used to be, but they would tell stories about the old days (the place has been around since the 70s when Sensei Osaka first moved to the US) *when sparring regularly lead to bloody noses, disputes between students were sometimes settled with their fists on the dojo floor, and everyone would go out for beers together after class.  *



I don't think that's exclusive to Wado dojo, but it's what happens in ours anyway (and also other Ryu-ha I train in  ) and it's what makes you - if you understand what I mean?

It's a shame you didn't get to understand Kihon Kumite - as it kinda holds the key to a lot of things.

Sounds like you had a good group there - why do you need to train elsewhere?

Sojobo


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## SPX

Well I said "the _place_ is a joke."  And from everything I've been able to tell, it is.  And I contrasted my local Wado school as offering pretty much the exact opposite experience.  So it's less the style and more the way it's taught that is important.  I was cautioning the OP not to judge Wado by a single school or teacher.


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## SPX

jks9199 said:


> Or even that a particular demonstration exercise isn't wildly impressive.  The video is clearly some sort of graduation "showpiece."   Not wowed by what I saw, and I kind of wonder how many hours went into the practicing and choreography that could have been spent on solid training -- but it could also be the kid's program.  I'm not comfortable judging by the one demo...
> 
> Wado's got a history of being effective.  I'm far from an expert on the history of the various karate styles -- but I wouldn't call any of them simply a "watered down" version of another.



Well again, it was a statement on the school, not the style.

I couldn't find any footage of a regular class, but just for fun I will offer this instructor demo for everyone's consideration:


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## Sojobo

IMO, their Kihon Kumite wasn't a million miles out.

Lacked attention to detail - but they had the outline there.

Sojobo


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> I don't think that's exclusive to Wado dojo, but it's what happens in ours anyway (and also other Ryu-ha I train in  ) and it's what makes you - if you understand what I mean?



No, certainly not, but I do think that that's kind of part of a bygone era for martial arts for the most part.  Even this school has toned it down a good bit over the past handful of years and, in my experience at least, most schools are way too afraid of lawsuits to allow that kind of thing to go on.




Sojobo said:


> Sounds like you had a good group there - why do you need to train elsewhere?



It's a good school and when I first visited I walked away feeling like I had just gotten my first glimpse of TRUE karate.  

However, for one thing, I never totally felt like I was fitting in or clicking with the rest of the group.  With the exception of the purple belt who just kind of kept to himself, I was the youngest by over a decade and also the only person who hadn't been there for years.  It would've been nice to have some people kind of at my level to bond with.  Also, and this was very important to me, I went out of my way to try to find some guys there who wanted to get together outside of class and train.  Doing stuff in class is great, but it's only an hour three times a week or whatever.  I knew that if I was really going to get up to speed and understand this art, then I would need a partner who would be as interested as I was in doing drills, sparring and just generally "comparing notes" outside of the dojo.  I even went so far as to set up an Internet forum where everyone could talk outside of class and perhaps organize meetups and so forth but not one even person bothered to check it out.  I admit that was really disappointing to me.  

So my shoulder's better now but that's why I haven't just immediately jumped back into training there.  I'm checking out a few others options.  The Shotokan school that I've been looking at seems to be a good one.  One thing in particular that interests me is that there's a particular instructor there who teaches a "fighting class" (as they call it) on Friday nights that is dedicated entirely to sparring.  I know he has done a lot of competing and has even trained some with the US National Team.  

All things being equal, I would go back to the Wado school.  Like I said, it's "fiercer" karate.  But I would be willing to make some sacrifices on that end if I can find a place where I fit in a little better and which has students and/or instructors who would be interested in taking things to another level and getting together outside of class.  I just think that's essential unless you want to train purely as a form of simple recreation.

Too bad I can't go old school and have some master take me under their wing and train me Mr. Miyagi style.


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## Tez3

When similiar things are posted in the TKD section, often people say that at least the kids are doing something rather than just being sat on their bums on their computers, and that's true.  I'm not defending a bad school I'd like to see them do something better but what they do is as least better than nothing.


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> IMO, their Kihon Kumite wasn't a million miles out.
> 
> Lacked attention to detail - but they had the outline there.
> 
> Sojobo




While I don't know the specifics of Kihon Kumite, I did think that video was an improvement over the last one.  Some of those guys at least seemed to have fairly crisp technique.  So I'm not totally hatin'.  In fact, that was the best one I found and posted it to be "fair."


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## SPX

Tez3 said:


> When similiar things are posted in the TKD section, often people say that at least the kids are doing something rather than just being sat on their bums on their computers, and that's true.  I'm not defending a bad school I'd like to see them do something better but what they do is as least better than nothing.



I really think it come down to what people want.  If someone told me they don't do it for self-defense and don't care about the combat applications, but are just looking for a fun activity and that they get into the XMA-style flashy techniques and acrobatics, then I say more power to them.  There are certainly such schools out there to fit those needs and I have to say that even I have been known to throw a tornado or do a back handspring here and there.

Although, I will say this:  If you're going to go that route, you should still find a good school that can teach that kind of thing properly.  It just seems like if you're going to do something--whatever it is--then you should try to find the best teacher that you can and try to learn to do it to the best of your ability.


----------



## chinto

SPX said:


> It could also be though that the school just sucks.  I have a friend who started out in Wado when he was a kid.  He thought it was a joke.  Recently he looked to see if the place was still in business and found a website and some YouTube vids.  I took a look at them and he was right, the place is a joke.  Far too many karate schools are.
> 
> So I would tell the OP that if the school he's been visiting looks anything like this, then he should run away fast:



ya.. not sure what that all was supposed to be!  but what I saw coming from people wearing black belts was sad.


----------



## SPX

Perhaps you'll enjoy this "Black Belt Extravaganza" from the school's adult instructors:


----------



## SPX

In keeping with my comment that I don't immediately dismiss all flashy, XMA kind of stuff, I feel like I should post something that is a GOOD example of such things.

This girl is awesome.  Maybe David Deaton should bring her in as a consultant or something.


----------



## jks9199

Let's pull away from tearing apart one school for what we see or don't see in their demos.  It's moving off the original topic, which was about the relationship between Wado-ryu and Shotokan.


----------



## SPX

*in my Maximus voice*

Are you not entertained?

And Audrie Donihoo does have some legit skills.


----------



## Sojobo

SPX said:


> However, for one thing, I never totally felt like I was fitting in or clicking with the rest of the group.  With the exception of the purple belt who just kind of kept to himself, I was the youngest by over a decade and also the only person who hadn't been there for years.  It would've been nice to have some people kind of at my level to bond with.  Also, and this was very important to me, I went out of my way to try to find some guys there who wanted to get together outside of class and train.  Doing stuff in class is great, but it's only an hour three times a week or whatever.  I knew that if I was really going to get up to speed and understand this art, then I would need a partner who would be as interested as I was in doing drills, sparring and just generally "comparing notes" outside of the dojo.  I even went so far as to set up an Internet forum where everyone could talk outside of class and perhaps organize meetups and so forth but not one even person bothered to check it out.  I admit that was really disappointing to me.
> 
> Too bad I can't go old school and have some master take me under their wing and train me Mr. Miyagi style.



I think &#8220;fitting in&#8221; to a dojo is an important part of Budo.

In our group we have students ranging from 14 &#8211; 55 and we all get on very well. The older members tend to take the youngsters under their wing but that said, some of our young guys and girls are technically better than some of us oldies &#8211; so there is a reciprocation there of sorts.

As far as training outside the dojo? Well, this is where martial arts can be a bit of a lonely journey. You have to do a lot of the mental weight lifting yourself. If you can meet up regularly with a partner then that&#8217;s great &#8211; but ime that&#8217;s not usually possible (a lot of the time).

Some of my senior students and me often train together one on one - and I&#8217;m always happy to oblige. You might find this in your Wado dojo once you get to know the folk a little better.

At the end of the day, arts like Wado aren&#8217;t easy to learn,they really take a lifetime of work. So, if rapid results are what you are after (from a SD, grading or sport perspective) Wado may not be for you.  But personaly, I would rather train 2-3 hours aweek in a good dojo with a knowledgeable instructor than 20 (in and out of the dojo) with a mediocre one.

It comes down to what you feel happiest with.

Sojobo


----------



## Tez3

I can't do the stuff the adult instructors were doing in the video so I'm not going to criticise!


----------



## SPX

Sojobo said:


> I think &#8220;fitting in&#8221; to a dojo is an important part of Budo.




I agree.  It's very important.  I definitely want to get along with my fellow students and feel like I have a bond with them.   And I was definitely trying to make that happen, but in some ways it seemed like an uphill battle.

There was one blackbelt who acted like a total prick to me just because he asked me if I was going to come to class a particular day, I said yes, and then I didn't show up.  (Something came up.)  And apparently he took that really personally and then the next time I saw him he just ignored me and basically acted like a child.  Beyond that, though, it's not that anyone was particularly uncool or treated me poorly--in fact, most of the guys were at least personable and my instructor (there were a few instructors, but one in particular that I regarded as "mine") did for sure try to be welcoming--but for whatever reason I just always felt slightly uneasy.

The whole mood and atmosphere there is pretty "quiet."  People chat a bit before and after class but there's not really a lot of laughing and joking around going on.  And during class it's definitely a very traditional, straightforward kind of experience.

If your curious, this is the school:

http://wado-institute.com/





Sojobo said:


> In our group we have students ranging from 14 &#8211; 55 and we all get on very well. The older members tend to take the youngsters under their wing but that said, some of our young guys and girls are technically better than some of us oldies &#8211; so there is a reciprocation there of sorts.




Out of curiosity, how many people are in your class?




Sojobo said:


> As far as training outside the dojo? Well, this is where martial arts can be a bit of a lonely journey. You have to do a lot of the mental weight lifting yourself. If you can meet up regularly with a partner then that&#8217;s great &#8211; but ime that&#8217;s not usually possible (a lot of the time).
> 
> Some of my senior students and me often train together one on one - and I&#8217;m always happy to oblige. You might find this in your Wado dojo once you get to know the folk a little better.




As a kid, I did TKD for a few years.  As an adult, I've done a bit more TKD, judo and a little wado.  

One  thing I have learned is that, as you say, learning martial arts can be  something of a lonely journey.  In all the schools I've been to, I've  tried to find people who wanted to get together outside of class and I  pretty much always hit a brick wall.  I think, however, that it's often the hours of practicing outside of class where you really start to learn something and understand your art.  Class introduces you to concepts and techniques . . . but it's outside of class that you really master those things.  And kicking and punching the air and doing solo drills are very useful, but they don't really teach you how to fight.  

When I was in TKD back in the day, I practiced at home like a madman.  I would do my forms over and over and over until they were perfect and would practice my techniques until I had great looking kicks that other students sometimes openly admired.  But one day I realized that, despite all this, I didn't really know how to fight.  I knew how to execute punches and kicks and stances, but I didn't know anything about footwork or how to get in and out without being countered or how to deal with an aggressive, moving human being coming toward me.  That is, while I learned how to do the techniques . . . I didn't learn how to USE the techniques.

So I'm desperate to not fall into that trap again and I know now that without someone to do drills with thousands of times and to spar with regularly for more than the 15 or so minutes that is allotted in class, that I'm never going to learn how to apply the things I'm learning.

I often hear stories of what seems me to be karate's golden age, from the 1960s to the 1980s, and I've heard people talk of a teacher-student relationship that they had with their instructor in which they would basically be individually taken under the wing of a teacher and would spend hours a day in training under their direct supervision.  When I was a kid , I thought that's what awaited me, but from what I can tell today that kind of thing is pretty much a forgotten practice of a bygone era.





Sojobo said:


> At the end of the day, arts like Wado aren&#8217;t easy to learn,they really take a lifetime of work. So, if rapid results are what you are after (from a SD, grading or sport perspective) Wado may not be for you.




You know, this is something I think about a lot because I'm a HUGE MMA fan.  I'm very invested in the sport and even write for an MMA magazine on occasion.  So sometimes I think I should be training at an MMA or kickboxing gym.  In some ways, that would be a lot more appropriate.  I visited a Muay Thai school once and there was a certain energy to the place that you don't usually find in traditional schools.  They also had daytime classes, something that I REALLY prefer but which is SORELY lacking for the most part in the TMA world.  And most of the students seemed to take it pretty seriously.

But at heart, I am a traditionalist.  There is something about the history, tradition and trappings of the traditional Asian styles that I have always appreciated and that has always appealed to me.  And when I see truly high level karatekas doing their thing it's a little awe-inspiring.

Also, while Wado is not an easy style to learn, I think with persistent and dedicated training you should be able to have a solid skillset for self-defense in six months.  In the end, like with any martial art, we're just talking about punches and kicks and how to put them on target.  





Sojobo said:


> But personally, I would rather train 2-3 hours aweek in a good dojo with a knowledgeable instructor than 20 (in and out of the dojo) with a mediocre one.
> 
> It comes down to what you feel happiest with.



Yeah, for sure.  Then again, would you pick an instructor who is a 10 but who you don't feel a strong personal connection with over an instructor who is an 8 that you really feel is a kindred spirit?


----------



## Tez3

I think with the best will in the world, SPX, you are looking for too much out of the people you train with. I'd love to be able to train outside class hours but in 20 years haven't managed it because life gets in the way and I have to prioritise, my family comes first and I have a job that makes demands. Many people have this problem, it's not that they don't want to train they can't, they aren't any less dedicated to martial arts they just have commitments they have to honour first. Don't think less of them or badger them for this. MMA gyms tend to be run professionally so can be open during the day, TMA places tend to be run by people who have to work during the day hence the evening classes.
As for the guy you say blanked you etc because you hadn't turned up, if you haven't spoken to him how do you know this is the case? There may have been a more simple explanation, perhaps you should have asked him?

I don't think there ever was a 'golden age' of martial arts, perhaps though it's now. I think maybe you are looking for something that's not there, perhaps never has been?
I understand you want to immerse yourself in a style, perhaps MMA would be good for you as you can train the different elements on different days if you wish. Practising at home  is good but you have to be careful not to overdo it and end up practising wrongly, it's hard then to put right. 
Not everyone needs to feel a strong personal connection to an instructor to train well, I prefer not to get too close to someone teaching me. I like a bit of separation. I don't want a kindred spirit I'm afraid, I want a good instructor.
I hope though you find what you are looking for, I'm sure it's out there.


----------



## chinto

I am not a fan of XMA.. to much show and not enough go.


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> I often hear stories of what seems me to be karate's golden age, from the 1960s to the 1980s, and I've heard people talk of a teacher-student relationship that they had with their instructor in which they would basically be individually taken under the wing of a teacher and would spend hours a day in training under their direct supervision.  When I was a kid , I thought that's what awaited me, but from what I can tell today that kind of thing is pretty much a forgotten practice of a bygone era.




Some people are lucky and the circumstance finds them.  

I had to find my teacher and I searched a long time for him, moving several times along the way, training in a variety of arts with a bunch of teachers, some famous, many not.  But when I found him, I knew within the first few hours what I had within my grasp.

It appears that like me you weren't one of the lucky ones, so you might have to upend yourself until you do find such a situation.


----------



## Tez3

chinto said:


> I am not a fan of XMA.. to much show and not enough go.



I'm not either but I do envy their athleticism.


----------



## SPX

Tez3 said:


> I think with the best will in the world, SPX, you are looking for too much out of the people you train with. I'd love to be able to train outside class hours but in 20 years haven't managed it because life gets in the way and I have to prioritise, my family comes first and I have a job that makes demands.



Yes, I do understand that not everyone is capable of it.  People do have jobs . . . families . . . etc.  But not everyone is married (I'm not) and some people don't really have much going on in their lives beyond work.

This is one reason why I wanted some younger people in my class, because they often have fewer commitments and more "fire" (not commitment, mind you, just youthful enthusiasm).  I'm looking for the kind of guys who are interested in making a serious competitive run and who want to put the kind of time into training that that requires.

I know there have to be guys like that out there. . .




Tez3 said:


> Many people have this problem, it's not that they don't want to train they can't, they aren't any less dedicated to martial arts they just have commitments they have to honour first. Don't think less of them or badger them for this.



I don't question their dedication and I've never badgered anyone.

I was disappointed that I never found anyone to train with at the Wado school.  But I was more disappointed that no one even took the time to visit the website I set up for us all to use.  I didn't create it just to set up meet ups, but also just as a sort of virtual gathering place for us to talk about things and get to know each other outside of class.  But not a single person from the school ever even registered.  

But it's all good.  




Tez3 said:


> MMA gyms tend to be run professionally so can be open during the day, TMA places tend to be run by people who have to work during the day hence the evening classes.



Yes, well I think that's part of the "problem."  Just like you have boxing gyms, Muay Thai gyms, etc. it would be cool if you also had karate gyms, TKD gyms, etc.  You know, the kind of place that is pretty much always open and that teaches classes all through the day.

Basically, I wish traditional stylists had the same sort of opportunities that boxers, kickboxers and MMA fighters do and that's just not the case.




Tez3 said:


> As for the guy you say blanked you etc because you hadn't turned up, if you haven't spoken to him how do you know this is the case? There may have been a more simple explanation, perhaps you should have asked him?



Oh, well at first he refused to talk to me.  I would say something to him and he would just give me a nasty look at walk away.  It wasn't ambiguous.  

Eventually he kind of started talking to me again but he was pretty curt.  And this guy is probably 50 years old.  No need to act like a child.





Tez3 said:


> I don't think there ever was a 'golden age' of martial arts, perhaps though it's now.



Well I definitely think we're living in an interesting time for martial arts as a whole because of the MMA explosion.  So many people are training in SOMETHING.

But there was definitely a time from the mid-60s to I'd probably say the end of the 80s when traditional martial arts were in vogue in a way that is not the case now, starting with the era of "full contact karate" and guys like Joe Lewis and Bill Wallace and moving into the era of guys like Benny Urquidez and Billy Blanks.

Bear in mind I am mostly speaking of the state of things here in the US.  I don't know about the rest of the world.  But I do think it's definitely true that traditional styles have become a lot more oriented toward kids and have become more of a hobby rather than a serious pursuit for most of the adults who ARE training.

Even when I first visited the Wado school the instructor was like, "We don't get a lot of new people.  I think most people are interested in MMA these days."




Tez3 said:


> I understand you want to immerse yourself in a style, perhaps MMA would be good for you as you can train the different elements on different days if you wish.



Like I said, I love MMA but there's some unexplainable tie that I have toward traditional styles and, for better or worse, I just want to figure out a way to make it work (training traditionally, that is).  




Tez3 said:


> Not everyone needs to feel a strong personal connection to an instructor to train well, I prefer not to get too close to someone teaching me. I like a bit of separation. I don't want a kindred spirit I'm afraid, I want a good instructor.



Yeah, that's an individual thing for sure. 

I've just had a few instructors who kind of kept me on pins and needles and who I just didn't feel like I really had any connection with.  After a few rounds of that I'm ready for something different.




Tez3 said:


> I hope though you find what you are looking for, I'm sure it's out there.



Thanks!  I appreciate that.  I do keep looking.


----------



## SPX

chinto said:


> I am not a fan of XMA.. to much show and not enough go.





Tez3 said:


> I'm not either but I do envy their athleticism.




I just look at it as something different from martial arts for self-defense purposes.  I've heard some people refer to it as more of a "martial arts themed" activity rather than actual martial arts.  

Basically, I see it the same way that I see gymnastics or dance and I suspect that's how most of the people who do it think of it as well.  I actually have always thought that it looks like a lot of fun.  If I was 20 years younger I'm sure I'd want to do it because when I was a kid in TKD I was all about anything that allowed me to jump and/or spin.


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> I had to find my teacher and I searched a long time for him, moving several times along the way, training in a variety of arts with a bunch of teachers, some famous, many not.  But when I found him, I knew within the first few hours what I had within my grasp.



I COMPLETELY relate to your statement about "moving several times, training in a variety of arts with a bunch of teachers."  That's pretty much my story.  I have never been as dedicated as I want to be.  I blame that partially on myself.  But I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that I haven't found a school or teacher that really inspires me.  

There is one particular instructor at the Wado school who I think is perhaps the most impressive that I've ever run into.  But he only teaches two one hour classes per week.  I definitely knew that he understood his art in a way that I'm not used to, though.  If he would be my Mr. Miyagi I would definitely be his Daniel Laruso.




dancingalone said:


> It appears that like me you weren't one of the lucky ones, so you might have to upend yourself until you do find such a situation.



That seems to be the case.  I've met some good teachers but none that seemed like THE teacher.  I guess I see choosing a teacher like choosing a wife . . . you need to be sure.  And thus far, I haven't been.

But I hope one day it all comes together.


----------



## dancingalone

SPX said:


> I COMPLETELY relate to your statement about "moving several times, training in a variety of arts with a bunch of teachers."  That's pretty much my story.  I have never been as dedicated as I want to be.  I blame that partially on myself.  But I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that I haven't found a school or teacher that really inspires me.
> 
> There is one particular instructor at the Wado school who I think is perhaps the most impressive that I've ever run into.  But he only teaches two one hour classes per week.  I definitely knew that he understood his art in a way that I'm not used to, though.  If he would be my Mr. Miyagi I would definitely be his Daniel Laruso.



I have encountered many exceptional martial artists.  Not all of them were exceptional *teachers* though, nor were most of them looking to take in a 'disciple'.





SPX said:


> That seems to be the case.  I've met some good teachers but none that seemed like THE teacher.  I guess I see choosing a teacher like choosing a wife . . . you need to be sure.  And thus far, I haven't been.
> 
> But I hope one day it all comes together.



I don't believe you have to commit so strongly right away.  In fact, I think many teachers would be scared away by someone knocking on their door, asking to be their Daniel Laruso.  I would be.

My senior student who I have spent countless hours with and who has even lived in my house with my family for a while started out as a simple 'outer chamber' student.  But he took every opportunity to train and he soaked up everything I put out in class.  He was a delight to teach - I'm human and I definitely enjoy it more when I have an audience that understands contextually a lot of the material I teach without having to explain it verbatim sometimes to dim, uncomprehending eyes.  So gradually I spent more and more time with him until he was at my home taking privates and then one day, he actually moved in and became part of the family.  In a way, I was paying back my sensei, since I became his student under similar circumstances.

But before that happened, I did try to create a deeper relationship with a few of the better teachers I found.  This is where luck and chance comes into play.  Not everyone is at the same place in life all the time.  Some might be inclined to be close to a few students but their financial circumstances might require them to work at another career or they might have familial obligations such as multiple children to take care of.  I was ready but they weren't if that makes sense.  Things worked out for me only because I did not have to work and I could hang out all day at my teacher's practice (he was a doctor of OM and an acupuncturist) and do various errands for him in between my own martial study.  This allowed me to receive a lot of private correction and he understood after a few months that I was a serious student worth investing in.

If you're young with good foundation skills and you don't mind being a sparring partner, have you thought about joining one of those MMA camps run by a successful coach?  That definitely seems to be the easiest path to getting in the door with a high quality instructor these days.  

I wish you luck.  I'm one of those people who believes fortune favors the bold and that when a person is ready life-wise, a teacher will come.


----------



## Sojobo

SPX said:


> If your curious, this is the school:
> 
> http://wado-institute.com/



Yes, I have seen that website before. I think they are (or were at one point) connected to the Wado Academy.




SPX said:


> Out of curiosity, how many people are in your class?



We have about 30 regular members split between our junior and adult classes.




SPX said:


> I often hear stories of what seems me to be karate's golden age, from the 1960s to the 1980s, and I've heard people talk of a teacher-student relationship that they had with their instructor in which they would basically be individually taken under the wing of a teacher and would spend hours a day in training under their direct supervision.  When I was a kid , I thought that's what awaited me, but from what I can tell today that kind of thing is pretty much a forgotten practice of a bygone era.



I'm from that era, and whilst I would agree that things were a little tougher back then, I think that the standards of teaching and technical understanding are far higher today.



SPX said:


> Also, while Wado is not an easy style to learn, I think with persistent and dedicated training you should be able to have a solid skillset for self-defense in six months.  In the end, like with any martial art, we're just talking about punches and kicks and how to put them on target.



Not really. Arts like Wado-ryu (and other traditional Japanese systems) are far more than just kicking and punching. They are much more multi layered than that.

And also I am intregued as to where you have got your time frame of 6 months to have a solid skill set of Self Defense? Actually I know a lot of very senior Wado instructors who deliberately avoid the use of the wording. Wado isn't a self defense system.

Just a thought, but if you were training with that mindset at the Wado dojo - it is posible that the other guys picked up on that vibe and as a result were a little "prickly" with you.



SPX said:


> Yeah, for sure.  Then again, would you pick an instructor who is a 10 but who you don't feel a strong personal connection with over an instructor who is an 8 that you really feel is a kindred spirit?




I would train with the best instructor.

Sojobo


----------



## SPX

dancingalone said:


> I have encountered many exceptional martial artists.  Not all of them were exceptional *teachers* though, nor were most of them looking to take in a 'disciple'.



Makes sense.




dancingalone said:


> I don't believe you have to commit so strongly right away.  In fact, I think many teachers would be scared away by someone knocking on their door, asking to be their Daniel Laruso.  I would be.



Certainly not right away.  Presumably, if you were to make such a decision (to approach a teacher) then you would've already trained with them for at least a little while.  Otherwise, how would you know they're the right teacher who can take you to the next level as a martial artist?

For me, I would actually like to compete on a serious level, i.e. regularly and with the hope of achieving something notable.  And I know that at 30 years old I'm getting to an age where, as an athlete, my abilities are not what they were just five years ago and that as I continue to get older they will inevitably continue to decrease.  So since time is not on my side, I'm looking for what I guess you could call "accelerated training."  The upside for me is that by the time I reach a reasonable level of ability I won't be too old to do anything with it.  The upside for the instructor is that he/she gets a piece of clay they can mold and, perhaps, do some things that they don't get the opportunity to do with their regular three-days-a-week-one-hour-per-day students.  It seems like the right instructor could have a blast and just go wild, like a kid in a candy store.

The other concern is that, from a self-defense perspective, you really need self-defense skills every time you walk out your front door.  So considering the fact that attackers may not be nice enough to wait until after I've been training for five years, I want to build a solid basic skillset for SD as quickly as possible.

It's not as if this kind of thing is unheard of.  I believe it was Joe Lewis who started training (either in taekwondo or some form of karate) and was basically at the school anytime the doors were open.  His teacher worked with him for several hours a day and he got his black belt in a year.  And then he went out and kicked everybody's *** in tournaments around the world.

But I do understand the sentiment that it could be perceived as kind of weird and might take someone off guard.





dancingalone said:


> My senior student who I have spent countless hours with and who has even lived in my house with my family for a while started out as a simple 'outer chamber' student.  But he took every opportunity to train and he soaked up everything I put out in class.  He was a delight to teach - I'm human and I definitely enjoy it more when I have an audience that understands contextually a lot of the material I teach without having to explain it verbatim sometimes to dim, uncomprehending eyes.  So gradually I spent more and more time with him until he was at my home taking privates and then one day, he actually moved in and became part of the family.  In a way, I was paying back my sensei, since I became his student under similar circumstances.
> 
> But before that happened, I did try to create a deeper relationship with a few of the better teachers I found.  This is where luck and chance comes into play.  Not everyone is at the same place in life all the time.  Some might be inclined to be close to a few students but their financial circumstances might require them to work at another career or they might have familial obligations such as multiple children to take care of.  I was ready but they weren't if that makes sense.  Things worked out for me only because I did not have to work and I could hang out all day at my teacher's practice (he was a doctor of OM and an acupuncturist) and do various errands for him in between my own martial study.  This allowed me to receive a lot of private correction and he understood after a few months that I was a serious student worth investing in.



Interesting stories.  

As you say, luck and chance come into play.  I imagine it has to be a situation where the stars align in just the right way, but it does seem that, for you and your instructor--as well as for you and you student--it happened.

My situation is actually not ideal.  I am in school full time and also have to work (my hours are flexible, but I do still have to put the time in to keep a roof over my head).  On top of that, everyone needs a little extra time beyond working, going to school, training etc. to just relax and decompress.  But I'd like to figure out how to make something work.

What art do you train in, out of curiosity?




dancingalone said:


> If you're young with good foundation skills and you don't mind being a sparring partner, have you thought about joining one of those MMA camps run by a successful coach?  That definitely seems to be the easiest path to getting in the door with a high quality instructor these days.



We have some good MMA gyms in the area but, as I mentioned earlier, despite my rabid MMA fandom, I would rather stick to a traditional style for historical and philosophical reasons.  Even as an MMA fan, I always cheer on guys like Machida (probably my favorite fighter) who come from traditional backgrounds.

There is a WTF/KKW TKD school that I visited a few times that I have considered joining.  The teacher is good and there is a VERY STRONG competitive focus.  I believe one of the black belts there may have even made the US National Team recently.   The downside, though, is that it's so competition oriented that you learn almost nothing about how to use your hands.  I do love to kick but karate is attractive to me because it seems very practical to me for SD purposes.

I'd love to find a good ITF TKD school.  Seems like the best of both worlds, in some ways.  I appreciate the structure of their competitions and it's a lot more well-rounded than what is taught at many Olympic schools.  But the ITF situation here in Utah is quite poor, in my estimation. 




dancingalone said:


> I wish you luck.  I'm one of those people who believes fortune favors the bold and that when a person is ready life-wise, a teacher will come.



Thanks a bunch!  We'll see how everything shakes out.  As I said, I'm not getting any younger.  I need to make some choices soon and stick with them.


----------



## SPX

Sojobo said:


> I'm from that era, and whilst I would agree that things were a little tougher back then, I think that the standards of teaching and technical understanding are far higher today.




That's an interesting statement.  Can you elaborate on that a bit?





Sojobo said:


> Not really. Arts like Wado-ryu (and other traditional Japanese systems) are far more than just kicking and punching. They are much more multi layered than that.




They may be "far more" than kicking or punching, but you can't deny that a big part of any karate system comes down to how to hit a target with a punch or kick, hopefully in a manner in which you avoid also getting hit.  

There may be many layers.  But that is one very important layer.





Sojobo said:


> And also I am intregued as to where you have got your time frame of 6 months to have a solid skill set of Self Defense? Actually I know a lot of very senior Wado instructors who deliberately avoid the use of the wording. Wado isn't a self defense system.




With a good teacher and a proper amount of practice, you should be able to get a good basic competency in any martial art in six months.  You have to keep in mind that people improve the most during the initial stages of their training and then more and more slowly the farther down the road they go.   This doesn't mean you will know everything.  It doesn't mean that you will even know all that much.  But if in six months you haven't learned what you're supposed to do when someone throws a punch at you then you should go train somewhere else.

Bear in mind that most street attackers are untrained.  Do you disagree that six months of karate training should be enough to prepare you to deal with some fool throwing haymakers?





Sojobo said:


> Wado isn't a self defense system.  Just a thought, but if you were training with that mindset at the Wado dojo - it is posible that the other guys picked up on that vibe and as a result were a little "prickly" with you.



Not at all.  In fact, before I even joined the school I had talked to two black belts and they both told me that, while there are other benefits to training in Wado, at this school they train to fight.  They do also stress that karate can help you in other aspects of your life and can help to make you a "life champion" and that there are philosophical underpinnings to the system that they embrace.  They also help to organize the Utah Karate Open every year and the school has several decades of competitive history in which its students have competed all over the world.  But when it comes to the daily physical training of the techniques in the dojo, my instructor stressed to me several times that the emphasis is placed on practical self-defense.

I know this isn't an isolated attitude.  I have listened to Ian Abernethy's (who comes from a Wado background) podcast and he has also stressed that he teaches primarily from a practical, real-world self-defense perspective.

I'm not sure why you say that Wado is not a self-defense system.


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## Sojobo

SPX said:


> They may be "far more" than kicking or punching, but you can't deny that a big part of any karate system comes down to how to hit a target with a punch or kick, hopefully in a manner in which you avoid also getting hit.
> 
> There may be many layers.  But that is one very important layer.




Actually (from a Wado perspective anyway) that's a rather superficial layer. There is so much more to martial engagement than knowing how to kick and punch - you can teach a monkey how to do that lol. What about understanding how to size up an opponent by looking at them? How about understanding correct fighting distance, timing and angles of entry? How about learning how to use your body efficiently and further more understanding how to exploit your opponents weaknesses? 




SPX said:


> With a good teacher and a proper amount of practice, you should be able to get a good basic competency in any martial art in six months.  You have to keep in mind that people improve the most during the initial stages of their training and then more and more slowly the farther down the road they go.   This doesn't mean you will know everything.  It doesn't mean that you will even know all that much.  But if in six months you haven't learned what you're supposed to do when someone throws a punch at you then you should go train somewhere else.




I don't quite know where you are getting the need to attach timescales from.

From a Budo perspective - Karate has no timescales. Consumers put requirements on things. If, as a consumer, you expect more rapid results then perhaps you are missing the point?




SPX said:


> Not at all.  In fact, before I even joined the school I had talked to two black belts and they both told me that, while there are other benefits to training in Wado, at this school they train to fight.  They do also stress that karate can help you in other aspects of your life and can help to make you a "life champion" and that there are philosophical underpinnings to the system that they embrace.  They also help to organize the Utah Karate Open every year and the school has several decades of competitive history in which its students have competed all over the world.  But when it comes to the daily physical training of the techniques in the dojo, my instructor stressed to me several times that the emphasis is placed on practical self-defense.



Knowing how to fight and Self Defense is not the same thing.



SPX said:


> I know this isn't an isolated attitude.  I have listened to Ian Abernethy's (who comes from a Wado background) podcast and he has also stressed that he teaches primarily from a practical, real-world self-defense perspective.
> 
> I'm not sure why you say that Wado is not a self-defense system.



I respect Mr Abernethy's work. He comes from a school that is "Based" in Wado - ask him and he will tell you that what he does and his approach is NOT Wado.

Sojobo


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## Sojobo

Perhaps another thing you have to bear in mind is where Wado has come from.

Peoples views in the west are somewhat skewed when it comes to what traditional dojo stand for.

A lot of the attitude in Wado dojo can  probably be traced back to its Koryu origins where, it was an expected part of Budo, that new members of the dojo would enter having emptied their cup as it were.

I'm lucky enough to train with such a Koryu, and its much the same way in traditional Wado dojo - potential / new students are ignored in a way, as the instructor (and the rest of the Dojo) probably thinks they won't stick at it anyway.

Sojobo


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> Actually (from a Wado perspective anyway) that's a rather superficial layer. There is so much more to martial engagement than knowing how to kick and punch - you can teach a monkey how to do that lol. What about understanding how to size up an opponent by looking at them? How about understanding correct fighting distance, timing and angles of entry? How about learning how to use your body efficiently and further more understanding how to exploit your opponents weaknesses?




Well I think all those things still tie into punching and kicking.  I thought it would be understood that I did not merely mean the mechanics of performing a punch or kick but also how to execute that punch or kick on an attacker.

Let me give you an example:  On either the first or second day of my Wado training (the first couple of lessons were private sessions with the instructor) we ran through a very simple drill in which he would punch and I would parry that punch and counter-attack.  It was very simple . . . but also very helpful in terms--as you said--of understanding distance and timing, as well as the simple execution of the technique.  It also could be very useful for self-defense.  Should it take me years to really gain an understanding of what that drill is supposed to teach me or to be able to use that in a real-life encounter?





Sojobo said:


> I don't quite know where you are getting the need to attach timescales from.




Well if I remember correctly you mentioned that Wado takes years to learn.  I said yes, certainly, but a basic competency for self-defense purposes against an untrained attacker shouldn't take more than six months with regular, dedicated training.

Besides, I've never attended a martial arts school that didn't have some idea about how long it was supposed to take to reach certain levels of understanding.  If you had been there five years and were still a white belt trying to get the hang of pinan shodan then they would think that was very odd.  





Sojobo said:


> From a Budo perspective - Karate has no timescales. Consumers put requirements on things. If, as a consumer, you expect more rapid results then perhaps you are missing the point?




When I go to the gym, I have an idea of how long it should take me to add a pound of muscle or increase my bench press by 10 pounds.  If I go to school, I have an idea about how long it's supposed to take me to get a degree.

If I train in martial arts, I also have an idea about how long it should take to gain a certain skillset.  I have already, in my above reply to dancingalone, talked about why it's important for me to achieve certain things within certain amounts of time.  If we want to talk about the spiritual or psychological benefits of martial arts, then we can do that, but it's a different discussion.  I am focusing here on the benefits of having the ability to do certain physical things.  Last I checked that was a part of martial arts.





Sojobo said:


> Knowing how to fight and Self Defense is not the same thing.



I'm starting to get the impression that you're really wanting to split hairs with me.  

Is this the part where you tell me that self-defense is about avoiding conflict or how the most important skill in self-defense is an awareness of your surroundings?

Hey, one guy approaches another in a bar and says he doesn't like the way the guy is looking at his girlfriend.  He throws a punch.  The other guy's back is against a wall and can't escape, so he defends, counter-attacks and subdues his opponent.  Boom!  They had a fight.  One guy _defended himself _by being better at fighting than the other guy was.

Why are you nitpicking?  





Sojobo said:


> I respect Mr Abernethy's work. He comes from a school that is "Based" in Wado - ask him and he will tell you that what he does and his approach is NOT Wado.



I was careful to say that he "came from a Wado background."  It may not be pure Wado, but that is still the core of his training and knowledge.


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> . . . potential / new students are ignored in a way, as the instructor (and the rest of the Dojo) probably thinks they won't stick at it anyway.



That was exactly the case with the head Japanese instructor.  He never once said a single word to me.


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## Sojobo

SPX said:


> That was exactly the case with the head Japanese instructor.  He never once said a single word to me.



Seems his judgement was right on the money then doesn't it?

Sojobo


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## SPX

Are you trying to pick a fight?


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## dancingalone

SPX said:


> What art do you train in, out of curiosity?



My primary interest is in Okinawan Goju-ryu karate and to a somewhat lesser extent Aikido.  I make my livelihood through operating a TKD dojang though and thus the bulk of my students study TKD.


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## SPX

What do you find more interesting about goju-ryu than TKD?


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## dancingalone

I don't really view things in that lens any more.  Both arts have much to recommend themselves for.  

Goju-ryu is a deep art with extensive information within its teachings to handle the short and medium ranges.  Paired with kobudo as it often is, it is as complete a system as any out there and it can be practiced by both the young and old.  But the primary reason I am a Goju-ryu stylist is because my teacher is one.  Had things unfolded otherwise, I might consider myself a baji or cha fist man instead.


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## Sojobo

SPX said:


> Are you trying to pick a fight?



No, there are enough fights in the real world (physically and metaphorically)




SPX said:


> Well





SPX said:


> I think all those things still tie into punching and kicking. I thought it would be understood that I did not merely mean the mechanics of performing a punch or kick but also how to execute that punch or kick on an attacker.
> 
> Let me give you an example: On either the first or second day of my Wado training (the first couple of lessons were private sessions with the instructor) we ran through a very simple drill in which he would punch and I would parry that punch and counter-attack. It was very simple . . . but also very helpful in terms--as you said--of understanding distance and timing, aswell as the simple execution of the technique. It also could be very useful for self-defense. Should it take me years to really gain an understanding of what that drill is supposed to teach me or to be able to use that in a real-life encounter?




Those are some of the very first basic drills used in most Wado keiko-jo, but, to be fair, they are just really a spring board to get you to the more interesting "functional" stuff.

What you learned there is not a million miles away from bog standard Shotokan club would do - so I can see why - if you didn't go much beyond that, why you would think that Wado and Shotokan would be very similar. Actually at that level you are quite right.

But those exercises are for our juniors. Not to give them the answers, but to start to give them tools they need to work the answers out.




SPX said:


> Besides, I've never attended a martial arts school thatdidn't have some idea about how long it was supposed to take to reach certain levels of understanding. If you had been there five years and were still a white belt trying to get the hang of pinan shodan then they would think thatwas very odd.
> 
> When I go to the gym, I have an idea of how long it should take me to add apound of muscle or increase my bench press by 10 pounds. If I go to school, Ihave an idea about how long it's supposed to take me to get a degree.
> 
> If I train in martial arts, I also have an idea about how long it should taketo gain a certain skillset. I have already, in my above reply to dancingalone,talked about why it's important for me to achieve certain things within certainamounts of time. If we want to talk about the spiritual or psychologicalbenefits of martial arts, then we can do that, but it's a different discussion.I am focusing here on the benefits of having the ability to do certain physicalthings. Last I checked that was a part of martial arts.




Again (and not seeking contention here), you seem to have it all worked out before you have even stepped foot into the dojo. This may be the way of the average western dojo - but it certainly isn't in any of the good Wado dojo I have trained in.

You mentioned Pinan Shodan - that's interesting as last weekend I trained with Shingo Ohgami sensei, and guess what we practiced - Pinan Shodan. Why? because(and I have been training for over 25 years) he thought it needed work. And he was right.




SPX said:


> Is this the part where you tell methat self-defense is about avoiding conflict or how the most important skill inself-defense is an awareness of your surroundings?




Yep pretty much so - be careful how you cross the road. You have a far greater chance of meeting your maker in that pursuit.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if self defense if you number one objective (or indeed even very high on your list) there are far more efficientway to achieve that. A good RBSD groups will give you in a month what a traditional Wado group would struggle to do in a decade (if ever).

Sorry if that shatters your "eastern ma" vision, but it's the truth.... so... Why bother training (he asks rhetorically)?

Sojobo


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## Sojobo

This is the Wado-ryu renmei's (Otsuka's group) Japanese website:

http://www.wado-ryu.jp/english.html

There's very little mention of Self Defense.

Have a look at the page "The Object of Studying".

Sojobo


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## SPX

Sojobo said:


> No, there are enough fights in the real world (physically and metaphorically)




Indeed.





Sojobo said:


> Those are some of the very first basic drills used in most Wado keiko-jo, but, to be fair, they are just really a spring board to get you to the more interesting "functional" stuff.




While I would agree that simple drill was "basic," I think it's often those very simple things that prove to be the most useful for self-defense.  It was a parry with a well-timed counter-punch.  Boxers have been using it effectively for ages.





Sojobo said:


> What you learned there is not a million miles away from bog standard Shotokan club would do - so I can see why - if you didn't go much beyond that, why you would think that Wado and Shotokan would be very similar. Actually at that level you are quite right.




Makes sense.  Perhaps that explains it.  





Sojobo said:


> But those exercises are for our juniors. Not to give them the answers, but to start to give them tools they need to work the answers out.




I was actually waiting to see some more advanced stuff, and while I did on occasion, the vast majority of classes consisted of similar exercises to the one I described.





Sojobo said:


> Again (and not seeking contention here), you seem to have it all worked out before you have even stepped foot into the dojo. This may be the way of the average western dojo - but it certainly isn't in any of the good Wado dojo I have trained in.




I don't know about "having it all worked out," but I do have ideas about how long it should take to achieve certain things, regardless of if we're talking about martial arts, gaining muscle in the gym, or reading a 300 page book.  

Why wouldn't I?

Apparently I am not alone.  Perhaps you can blame it on Sensei Osaka's 4+ decades in the West but he also has ideas about how long it should take to achieve things in Wado.  It was discussed during my first class.  Blue belt usually takes about 3 months.  Black belt usually takes about 3 years with dedicated training, while those who train less do it more in 4 or 5 years.

Perhaps your dojos' ways aren't the only ways?





Sojobo said:


> You mentioned Pinan Shodan - that's interesting as last weekend I trained with Shingo Ohgami sensei, and guess what we practiced - Pinan Shodan. Why? because(and I have been training for over 25 years) he thought it needed work. And he was right.




Nothing will ever be perfect, but I'm sure if after 25 years you hadn't progressed to learning Pinan Nidan your sensei would consider that an issue.





Sojobo said:


> Yep pretty much so - be careful how you cross the road. You have a far greater chance of meeting your maker in that pursuit.




It's interesting you mention crossing the road because I was doing just that a few months ago when a clearly mentally unstable black guy came up to me, got in my way, and very aggressively said, "What's up?" as he got in my face.

I said, "I'm just going to the store. . ."

He said, "Well get your white *** in the store then!"

I walked around him and carried on and heard him say, "And don't let me catch you around here again!"

It was especially strange because I live in one of the safest neighborhoods in America, but it just goes to show you that sometimes trouble finds you even when you're not looking for it.  What if he hadn't let me pass?  What if he followed me and then attacked me?  

Sometimes you're forced into a position where you have to act.





Sojobo said:


> I guess what I am trying to say is that if self defense if you number one objective (or indeed even very high on your list) there are far more efficientway to achieve that. A good RBSD groups will give you in a month what a traditional Wado group would struggle to do in a decade (if ever).




If I just wanted to learn to fight then I would do MMA for sure.  As I said I'm a big fan, but it lacks the history and tradition of the Asian systems.  

There are four primary reasons for my interest in martial arts (in no particular order):

1.  Self-Defense
2.  Competition
3.  Fitness
4.  History, Tradition and Philosophy, i.e. Martial arts as a way of life. . .





Sojobo said:


> Sorry if that shatters your "eastern ma" vision, but it's the truth.... so... Why bother training (he asks rhetorically)?



It doesn't shatter anything.

I actually had just about given up on karate as an effective fighting system.  Ironically enough, it was MMA that came to the rescue when Lyoto Machida started knocking fools out in the UFC.  

Then I found the Wado school (after visiting several other karate and TKD schools) and saw that they were pretty good fighters.

But. . .

There have been some developments.  I have been exchanging a few e-mails both with my instructor at the Wado school as well as with an instructor at the Shotokan school.  

I expressed to my Wado instructor exactly what I was looking for and talked about my disappointment in not being able to find a local karate school that was as fighting/competition focused as I would like.  Here is his response, in part, which I'm sure he wouldn't mind if I shared:




> I  agree with you.  The only way to get really good is to train for  several hours every day.  Sensei Osaka comes from the Nihon University  Karate Team (Nichi-Dai).  He Graduated in 1963.  Nichi-Dai is famous for  austere discipline and brutal training methods (especially in Sensei  Osaka's day).  If you have time, you should do a bit of research on old  time Nichi-Dai.  When I was 19 years old Sensei sent me to Nichi-Dai and  I lived with those guys at the Nichi-Dai dojo for awhile.
> 
> We trained very hard five hours a day, six days a week.  When I  came back I started a karate team (club) at the University of Utah.  I  tried to base the training on what I had experienced at Nichi-Dai.  Our  University club went strong for about 4 years.  During that time myself  and a few other of Sensei Osaka's University team students traveled to  tournaments in the US, Japan and Europe.  We were very successful.
> 
> Then we graduated and put our karate-do training to use in our  daily lives.  Many of Sensei's top fighters who trained with me back at  the University club have moved away to pursue their careers.  I have  been lucky enough to stay around the dojo.
> 
> Sensei's philosophy has always been that Karate-Do training should  make a person a better human being.  That is what it is all about to us.
> 
> I think that the popularity of  MMA has taken some of the students that we used to get at our dojo back  in the day.  The young guys who liked to mix it up.  We don't have that  kind of student anymore so it is hard for a guy like you.  Most of our  students are hobbyists and the old time fighters are now busy fighting  in the arena of life.




From his response, the impression that I get is that I should've found that dojo 20 years ago, but that the flavor has changed as everyone has gotten older.

However, then I got a response from the Shotokan instructor (I have met other instructors from that school, but not this one).  Again, I explained to him what I was looking for and he responded, in part:




> Thanks for contacting me on this.  I completely understand where you are coming from.  If you are going to train, you want it to be worth something outside of the dojo.  I feel much the same way.  For me fighting drives the rest of my practice.  Don't get me wrong I truly believe that kata and basics have an extremely valuable place in Karate and are vital to progressing.  However, that does not motivate me.  I am motivated by becoming a better fighter.  I have been leading a fighting class on as many Friday nights as I can.   This has been partly a selfish thing for me as it sets aside a block of time for me to work on fighting and also to hopefully bring up the fighting level of those in the club.  One important thing that I try to push is that your fighting mentality should be the same in a real situation or a tournament.




He then went on to talk about how long he has been competing and how he's trying to get everyone ready for a tournament in April.

So, while I appreciate the Wado dojo and have an unusually high degree of respect for my instructor there and his abilities, it sounds like the Shotokan school might be a better fit.  I should know in a couple of weeks.  This particular instructor has been out for a few weeks because he got cracked hard in the face during a match and had to get surgery.  But he'll be back on the 30th and has invited me to come check his class out and discuss everything further.


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## dancingalone

I know we're talking about Wado-ryu primarily, but I do Goju-ryu.  My teacher is an older transplant Okinawan.  He would be quite bothered by the notion that learning how to fight is not the primary reason why we practice karate.  Note that I say "how to fight" rather than self-defense as I think the latter term has developed certain connotations here in the west as evidenced by the many discussions here about what SD is or isn't.  I'm very certain that to my teacher fighting and SD are the same thing.  

"Want to learn self-defense?  Simple.  Don't get hit."


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## Sojobo

Here&#8217;s the difference as I see it:-

As I mentioned in a previous post, Wado-ryu has its roots firmly embedded in Japanese (not Okinwan) Koryu Bujutsu. The Koryu of feudal Japan initially came about as a means to transmit martial methods to the warring clans however, as the philosophies of &#8220;Zen&#8221; became intertwined with Japanese culture in the early part of the 17[SUP]th[/SUP] century, the practices of the Koryu became as much about the &#8220;improvement of self&#8221; as the &#8220;Martial&#8221; content itself. In a nutshell - Bujutsu becomes Budo.

That&#8217;s not to say martial element became watered down, but there was perhaps a different reasoning behind learning the arts in the firstplace. 

The notion of &#8220;Do&#8221; (way, path, maxim etc) is an important to Zen Buddhist philosophy. IE the study of an art (and it need not be martial) as a central focus point - to challenge and embrace improvements to one-self.  The task is to seek perfection in the art itself - to perform the perfect &#8220;waza&#8221;, to  grow and get stronger for it - in mind and body &#8211; not by striving to be better than others (by wining competitions or self defence etc.).   

And therein lies the difficult bit for us westerners to grasp maybe as, surely, by winning competitions or by defeating others in a fight (be that SD or in a sporting contest) it is a tangible sign of self improvement??? Well from a Budo perspective &#8211; not really.

Competition has become an important part of Modern Budo (in arts like Judo, Karate, Kendo etc) and I would be a hypercritic if I said they were not important, they are. Some of the best Karate competition fighters on the circuit come from Wado, but from a Budo perspective, being able to fight(and taking part in competitions) is just part of the journey *not* the reason for it.

And there&#8217;s the problem&#8230;

In the west, it is very difficult to market something as esoteric as &#8220;Budo&#8221;. Most of us don&#8217;t understand it let alone have the desire to embrace it. So, if you want to market a martial art you advertise what the consumer is most likely to relate to and therefore want:

1. Everybody loves to be a winner &#8211; so sport andcompetition are King.

2. It&#8217;s a scary World out there &#8211; so self defenseis seen as a must have.  

Sojobo


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## dancingalone

The Zen enlightenment philosophy is present in Okinawan karate as well as seen by writings like men like Nagamine or interviews with students of Miyagi and Mabuni.  Of course to what degree and to what importance it holds is according to individual instructors.


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## punisher73

I have seen WAY too many of these discussions.  As my roommate in college used to say, "Everyone sucks to someone else."

Almost EVERY time an art branches out from another art, I see arguments from the original group that the new art is "watered down".  I have seen arguments from Shorin-Ryu to Shotokan, Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu to Isshin-Ryu, Judo to BJJ (just naming a few off the top of my head).  Now lets not even get in to the arguments IN THE SAME STYLE from instructor to instructor of who teaches closest to Master So and So and teaches the "real art"! This goes back in okinawan karate all the way to the beginning when you read about Motobu and Funakoshi dissing each other about what they were doing.


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## SPX

dancingalone said:


> I'm very certain that to my teacher fighting and SD are the same thing.



That's pretty much the way I see it, too.  Regardless of what else goes into it there are times when conflict is unavoidable and you're going to either win or lose, that is, you will be successful at defending yourself by fighting off your attacker or you won't.


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## chinto

dancingalone said:


> I know we're talking about Wado-ryu primarily, but I do Goju-ryu.  My teacher is an older transplant Okinawan.  He would be quite bothered by the notion that learning how to fight is not the primary reason why we practice karate.  Note that I say "how to fight" rather than self-defense as I think the latter term has developed certain connotations here in the west as evidenced by the many discussions here about what SD is or isn't.  I'm very certain that to my teacher fighting and SD are the same thing.
> 
> "Want to learn self-defense?  Simple.  Don't get hit."



I agree with your teacher. in any real fight you may die. so by definition its a self defense situation.  sparring is different because there are rules and things of course, and the intent is not to remove your opponent from combat by death or serious injury.


----------

