# Is it possible... 18-year-old person to have achieved 4th degree black belt?



## SapphireStar

I'm seriously doubting this,  but don't want to flat out call anyone a liar.   This person is only 18, and  good grief, my own teacher is a 4th degree and he's been in it for 20 years.   

I found it quite amusing that during all the horseplay at work, this person said to someone  "I'm a 4th degree black belt and I'll *f* your *sh*  up.   Along with, of course, the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance.  :BSmeter:

Could be a black,  but 4th degree  - already???    

Aside from that, as far as I've been taught, we don't go around saying things like that to people in general public, let alone at work.  Martial arts, no matter what field, is supposed to be for self-defense or combat.


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## MJS

SapphireStar said:


> I'm seriously doubting this, but don't want to flat out call anyone a liar. This person is only 18, and good grief, my own teacher is a 4th degree and he's been in it for 20 years.
> 
> I found it quite amusing that during all the horseplay at work, this person said to someone "I'm a 4th degree black belt and I'll *f* your *sh* up. Along with, of course, the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance. :BSmeter:
> 
> Could be a black, but 4th degree - already???
> 
> Aside from that, as far as I've been taught, we don't go around saying things like that to people in general public, let alone at work. Martial arts, no matter what field, is supposed to be for self-defense or combat.


 
Sadly today, anythings possible, but IMO, I find that anyone that young who has that rank, is laughable at best.  I also find it laughable that this person kid thinks he's indestructable.  Sorry, I dont care what rank you hold, it doesnt mean ya got an "S" on your chest.  

Now, I'm sure some will say, "Well, if this kid started at 4....."  Again, I still call BS on that.  Why?  Well, we have proof in the pudding right here, given this kids atttiude and the way he acts.  No understanding of the BB, what it means, etc.


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## dowan50

Sad to say if your talking about TKD its all about Time in Rank not training. Going backwards Time in rank at 3rd Dan is 3 years time in rank at 2nd Dan is two years and time in rank at 1st Dan can be as little as 12 months so that is only 6 years that puts them back at 12 years old starting and many start much earlier maybe 6-8 years old.

So Poom belts are awarded along the way and then magically at age 15 the poom belts magically convert to full Dan rank. This is all money period.

Nothing takes the place of aging, experience and maturing but this has been going on for decades now and will not stop the only thing to counter this in time will be increasing the number of Dan ranks which are labels are already being used such as Senior Grand Master and Supreme Grand Master? Black belt means next to nothing anymore compared to the 60's 70's but all this matters nothing its about personal health and ability and there is so much to learn concentrate on that instead of the black belt next to you may some day be wearing pampers?


I loved your BS meter How can I do that??


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## LuckyKBoxer

yes an 18 year old can be a 4th degree.
an 18 year old can be a 10th degree.

There is nothing to say an 18 year old can not make up their own system and claim themselves as grandmaster. In times long since past, other Martial Artists would expose the fraud by handling the business physically. In a day where Legal Fu is more scary then Kung Fu we do not see this happening very much.

I have seen young martial artists with much more skill and knowledge then some old martial artists, so my suggestion would be to not be so worried about rank and age, the two are not always hand in hand. Look more towards the knowledge and skill level then anything.

In most arts the curriculum or knowledge only extends to 3rd-5th degree anyways with the rest of the ranks being honorary and generally reserved to show time in the art, special contributions, etc.

Also different arts have different requirements for rank, some are very limited in any actual knowledge and heavy on physical ability, some are the opposite, and some require little physical ability or knowledge... if the check cashes its good.... 

If you are really concerned about it then ask the guy, what art he studies, where he studies, and who his instructor is.


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## Bill Mattocks

Why would anyone care what a person calls themselves?  Worry about yourself.


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## LuckyKBoxer

Bill Mattocks said:


> Why would anyone care what a person calls themselves? Worry about yourself.


 
People care because they are passionate about their martial art, they hate seeing frauds, phonies, and charlatans. They take it personal. there can be lots of other reasons, but people would not care if they were not passionate about the arts... that is one of the few glimmers of hope I see in all the rank nonsense going on.

maybe you should step off your high horse and stop chastizing people for not being like you. You may not care, but others do, its their right.


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## oaktree

> I'm seriously doubting this, but don't want to flat out call anyone a liar. This person is only 18, and good grief, my own teacher is a 4th degree and he's been in it for 20 years.


 
Alot of factors can be at play for someone to be awarded a high level belt at an early age. 

It could be possible that he trained alot and his teacher felt he met the requirements of obtaining that belt level.

He could just be gifted.

The art he trains in is a belt factory meaning as long as you pay you get a rank every 3-6 months.

He could be just B.S.

He could have started very young or even skipped levels.



> I found it quite amusing that during all the horseplay at work, this person said to someone "I'm a 4th degree black belt and I'll *f* your *sh* up. Along with, of course, the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance


 
Well if he said that to me he would be a 4th degree without a job I do not take threats at work lightly. Maybe he is full of it.



> Could be a black, but 4th degree - already???


 
There are kids walking around with 1-2nd degree so of course an 18 year old can be 4th just how much pull that 4th degree has is the question.



> Aside from that, as far as I've been taught, we don't go around saying things like that to people in general public, let alone at work. Martial arts, no matter what field, is supposed to be for self-defense or combat.


 
I don't talk about my martial arts at work I think everyone at work thinks I am mild mannered like Clark Kent.


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## Touch Of Death

LuckyKBoxer said:


> People care because they are passionate about their martial art, they hate seeing frauds, phonies, and charlatans. They take it personal. there can be lots of other reasons, but people would not care if they were not passionate about the arts... that is one of the few glimmers of hope I see in all the rank nonsense going on.
> 
> maybe you should step off your high horse and stop chastizing people for not being like you. You may not care, but others do, its their right.


Suggesting to people not to get worked up over things they can't do anything about can be done from a small pony. It is more Zen.
Sean


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## SFC JeffJ

dowan50 said:


> Sad to say if your talking about TKD its all about Time in Rank not training. Going backwards Time in rank at 3rd Dan is 3 years time in rank at 2nd Dan is two years and time in rank at 1st Dan can be as little as 12 months so that is only 6 years that puts them back at 12 years old starting and many start much earlier maybe 6-8 years old.
> 
> So Poom belts are awarded along the way and then magically at age 15 the poom belts magically convert to full Dan rank. This is all money period.
> 
> Nothing takes the place of aging, experience and maturing but this has been going on for decades now and will not stop the only thing to counter this in time will be increasing the number of Dan ranks which are labels are already being used such as Senior Grand Master and Supreme Grand Master? Black belt means next to nothing anymore compared to the 60's 70's but all this matters nothing its about personal health and ability and there is so much to learn concentrate on that instead of the black belt next to you may some day be wearing pampers?
> 
> 
> I loved your BS meter How can I do that??


Not all TKD is like this thankfully.

Jeff


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## Dirty Dog

dowan50 said:


> Sad to say if your talking about TKD its all about Time in Rank not training.


 
This is not true. Yes, there are TKD belt factories just as there are belt factories for EVERY art. But painting the entire world of TKD with this brush is false, ignorant, and downright insulting to those who have earned their rank.


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## SapphireStar

Thanks for everyone's viewpoints.  I was simply curious about whether this was possible.   I never intended to challenge the person, worry myself about it, or do anything.    I just wondered.   The more I know of this person, I believe they've raised their own flag just a bit too high   LOL  

:bs:


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## Mark Jordan

Just want to add that the black belt is nothing if he conducts himself that way.

As a black belt you become a model for other students - how you persevere in training, how you conduct yourself in and out of the dojo, your attitude, how you handle obstacles...

A real black belt holder doesn't look down on others.  But instead is humble, trains hard and his practice should lead to enlightenment into the nature of who he is - his true self.


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## Indie12

SapphireStar said:


> I'm seriously doubting this, but don't want to flat out call anyone a liar. This person is only 18, and good grief, my own teacher is a 4th degree and he's been in it for 20 years.
> 
> I found it quite amusing that during all the horseplay at work, this person said to someone "I'm a 4th degree black belt and I'll *f* your *sh* up. Along with, of course, the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance. :BSmeter:
> 
> Could be a black, but 4th degree - already???
> 
> Aside from that, as far as I've been taught, we don't go around saying things like that to people in general public, let alone at work. Martial arts, no matter what field, is supposed to be for self-defense or combat.


 
Sadly, yep this is possible, I knew a 15 yr old 3rd Dan Black Belt, who had only been practicing less then 10 years!!

I also know a 14 yr old 1st dan black with less then 5 years experience...

I myself had to wait until I was 18 (well I was encouraged too) and when that come, I had over 14 years experience, but now I truly believe I was still too young!

I agree with your last statement, although sadly many many people (including and especially- Martial Artists) don't always see it that way!


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## Indie12

Mark Jordan said:


> Just want to add that the black belt is nothing if he conducts himself that way.
> 
> As a black belt you become a model for other students - how you persevere in training, how you conduct yourself in and out of the dojo, your attitude, how you handle obstacles...
> 
> A real black belt holder doesn't look down on others. But instead is humble, trains hard and his practice should lead to enlightenment into the nature of who he is - his true self.


 
Nicely Said!! :asian:


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## sfs982000

Mark Jordan said:


> Just want to add that the black belt is nothing if he conducts himself that way.
> 
> As a black belt you become a model for other students - how you persevere in training, how you conduct yourself in and out of the dojo, your attitude, how you handle obstacles...
> 
> A real black belt holder doesn't look down on others. But instead is humble, trains hard and his practice should lead to enlightenment into the nature of who he is - his true self.


 
I couldn't have put it any better myself.  I've seen similar situations like what the OP is stating and right away the B.S. flag goes up.  The honest to goodness black belts that have earned them the hard way respect the rank and position they hold and it shows in the way they carry themselves and interact with folks in their everyday life both in and out of the dojo.


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## Never_A_Reflection

My Shuri-Ryu sensei started at the age of 3 and earned Sandan (3rd Degree) at 23 or 24, and my Shorin-Ryu sensei started at about the same age and earned Yondan (4th Degree) at about the same age.  That's the youngest I can conceivably see someone earning 3rd or 4th degree, but that is within Okinawan arts with legitimate rank requirements.  Anything could happen nowadays, but given the way that person acted I have to assume that he didn't earn his rank so much as buy it.


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## yak sao

This is precisely the kind of crap that almost makes me ashamed to tell people i do MA.
It's also why I teach out of my garage without uniforms and a very limited ranking system.


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## MJS

LuckyKBoxer said:


> People care because they are passionate about their martial art, they hate seeing frauds, phonies, and charlatans. They take it personal. there can be lots of other reasons, but people would not care if they were not passionate about the arts... that is one of the few glimmers of hope I see in all the rank nonsense going on.
> 
> maybe you should step off your high horse and stop chastizing people for not being like you. You may not care, but others do, its their right.


 
QFT!!!  In no way, shape or form, am I the Kenpo police, the Arnis police, etc, and as I've said, the frauds, the ********ters, and the like, will be weeded out, questioned, and ultimately, they will have to answer for their actions.  

But you're 100% correct.  I care because I love the arts and am passionate about them.  Its sad that you can have 2 people....1 is a legit teacher, who's busted his *** for years, earning every rank with blood, sweat and tears, and person 2, who ********s everyone, races thru the rank, as fast as they change their shorts, and doesnt care about the quality of the student, but instead the money.  Sad how many tend to go to person 2, because they want everything fast.  Do they get a coke and fries with the belt too?  Probably. LOL


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## MJS

yak sao said:


> This is precisely the kind of crap that almost makes me ashamed to tell people i do MA.
> It's also why I teach out of my garage without uniforms and a very limited ranking system.


 
Exactly!  I've said it before and I'll say it again....99 times out of 100, the people that teacch and train in a setting like that, are interested in 1 thing and 1 thing only...the training!  You come, you bust your ***, you get banged up, you learn.  You dont give a **** about the guy who started 3 months after you, and progresses faster, and so on.  Its all about the training and the learning.


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## Xue Sheng

This entire post is rather depressing&#8230;that or I&#8217;m just too old.
Back in my Jujutsu days you could not even test for a black belt unless you were 18&#8230; now they can be a 4th degree :disgust:


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## Brandon Fisher

I would be more concerned that the guys attitude and claiming to be that high of a rank


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## shima

Xue Sheng said:


> This entire post is rather depressing&#8230;that or I&#8217;m just too old.
> Back in my Jujutsu days you could not even test for a black belt unless you were 18&#8230; now they can be a 4th degree :disgust:



At the first dojo I studied at if you were under 18 you had to have what most schools would call a student black belt until you turned of age or stayed at that probationary black belt level for at least a year first. Then, and only after that year, could they become an actual shodan. 18 and up could test straight for black belt though.


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## Kenpo17

Yes, it is possible.  I would have my fourth degree right now had I not gone through the kids ranks before recieving my adult white belt.  I was a junior black belt, then I had to start at white belt again in the adult class.  I am 18 and hold my 2nd degree black belt after 10 years in the Art, and will be testing later this year for my 3rd degree.  Altogether now I have been in the same Art for over 13 years.  So long story short it is possible no doubt, but there aren't very many 18 year olds who hold 4th degree.


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## Lee Ch'a

As far as the Tae Kwon Do ranking system I am a part of, it would not be possible.  Many here mentioned earning a "student black belt" of sorts when you are under a certain age; it is similar with the art I practice.  If you are under 16 you earn a Junior BB, and once you are 16 you can earn Black Belt.  So if someone earned their Black Belt at 16, not only does additional training and material (obviously) come into play, but there are also time constraints.  It takes at least a year between 1st and 2nd, then two more years to 3rd, then three more years to 4th. Clearly in this system, that adds up to too many years for it to allow an 18 year old to reach 4th degree (which, incidentally, is Master rank, and requires a very intense test that I highly doubt this individual, judging by their attitude, could have passed).

That being said, it sounds to me like through other ranking systems it could be possible, as well as others have mentioned the classic case of the "McDojo".  Therefore, yes, sadly it seems it could be possible. This certainly does sadden and frustrate me- I agree with many who have made comments about sometimes being wary of talking about MA they are involved with because of scenarios like this.  Especially when it makes me feel like what does a Black Belt even mean anymore when you see people in situations like this, and when you yourself (as the people of this forum obviously do) take your martial art(s) very seriously.

But as has been mentioned, someone with that rank and that attitude obviously is a phony.  I know others have said this, and I completely agree- a Black Belt means something far more than just the fact that you are physically proficient enough to perform your art, it is an attitude, a philosophy, and a way of life.  I myself will be testing for my Black Belt this December, and am constantly training for it, both physically and mentally.  

Because not only do I wish to be proficient, I want to be a good role model for others, I want to BE a Black Belt, not just "have" a Black Belt. 

I believe these are two entirely different things; and this young student obviously does not understand that.  Hopefully someday they will.

Oops- I do tend to be a bit long-winded!  Anyway, thanks all for the great comments here- it is a joy to read and join the discussion!


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## Thesemindz

The true practice of karate is a life long pursuit. Karate no shugyo wa issho. It doesn't matter how quickly you move down the path, there is no end to learning. I wish I had started younger so I could be farther now, but the reality is the journey continues on and on forever. 8, 18, 80, no matter how many stripes you have on your belt or how many trophies you have on your shelf you won't ever be done learning karate.

If the kid is a fourth degree, good for him. I guarantee he'll be better in ten years than he is now. But if he starts thinking he's arrived and quits putting one foot in front of the other, then he won't really have learned a thing about karate no matter how many degrees of black belt his instructors award him.


-Rob


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## Zenjael

I think with an attitude like that conveys the reality that he is not what he claims; just because a person claims to be a 4th, or even wears the rank, does not necessarily mean they deserve it. Always give due respect however; if he claims to be a 4th, one must still respect that people, martial artists especially, are normally individuals with great integrity, and thus, honesty. The rank denotes due respect, and one must always keep that in mind. Ask to learn from him, maybe then you will see firsthand his story unravel.

And even if a 4th dan... I question the relevance this has to fighting ability, and moreso their ability to teach. Being a great teacher does not mean one picks brawls, despite what movies seem to convey.


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## tshadowchaser

I once went to what was supposed to be a dinner with a group from another school. It turned out to be a promotin ceramony and in the course of the evening the instructor promoted his 13 year old son to 5th degree and named him to be the person to take over the school and sysytem if anything should happen to the instructor.  The young man was a 1st degree at the time.  
The trouble was that no one except myslef, my son, and a person we took with us saw anything strange or wrong.  The young student I had brought did ask if 5th came after first in all sysytems.
So to answere the OP, yes it is possible . The question is what is the standard of promotion within the sysytem and dose the person reallly have any knowledge and ability


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## Tony Dismukes

Any rank is only meaningful to the extant that you are familiar with the teacher and their standards for issuing said rank.

I hereby award to everyone who has participated in this thread a 5th degree black belt in Tony-ryu Forumjutsu.The next time an 18-year old threatens you with his 4th degree black belt, you can trump him with your superior rank.

(Higher ranks are available.  Simply send a short essay detailing your training and posting background, along with a check to cover expenses for the testing and certification process.  The rank awarded will depend on the details of the documentation, i.e. the numbers on the check.)


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## Madcity

I am currently reading &#8220;Living the Martial Way&#8221; by Forrest E. Morgan who makes a very insightful comment regarding belts being used as a marker of progress rather than skill. He points out that in many systems today people have become so obsessed with belt rank that it distracts them from proper training.

While his book is more of an outline on a way of thinking rather than specifics on Martial Arts it does force people to re-examine the reasons they are training in the first place.

I have found it to be a good practice for me in asking people &#8220;How long have you been doing Martial Arts?&#8221; rather than &#8220;What belt are you?&#8221; when talking with people about this type of topic.


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## Xue Sheng

I am mostly against a black belt prior to 18 but with that said Benny Urquidez got his at 14 in the 60s when that was pretty much not being done by anyone


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## Zenjael

> The true practice of karate is a life long pursuit. Karate no shugyo wa  issho. It doesn't matter how quickly you move down the path, there is no  end to learning. I wish I had started younger so I could be farther  now, but the reality is the journey continues on and on forever. 8, 18,  80, no matter how many stripes you have on your belt or how many  trophies you have on your shelf you won't ever be done learning karate.



I often feel blessed to have been lucky to begin to learn at 4, and that I never stopped. However, the real gift is in to never stop practicing.


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## Twin Fist

Not from me


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## Toast_in_the_Machine

Xue Sheng said:


> I am mostly against a black belt prior to 18 but with that said Benny Urquidez got his at 14 in the 60s when that was pretty much not being done by anyone



Chuck Norris' time in Korea studying Tang Soo Do was under 4 years, probably closer to 2.  He probably trained with others after that, but as far as I recall, he started teaching martial arts immediately upon returning to the states.


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## Gentle Fist

Not in Judo, JuJutsu, or BJJ...


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## grumpywolfman

Hello SapphireStar,

I took some key points that stood out to me from your original post:



SapphireStar said:


> *I'm seriously doubting this.
> This person is only 18.
> During all the horseplay at work.
> Along with, of course, the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance.*



Just my personal opinion ... but doesn't this appear to be just play fighting banter? Having said that, I'm sure if a person tries hard enough they can find somebody willing to take their money off their hands


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## Gemini

Wow! Lots of haters in this thread. Lots of sweeping generalizations about lots of people we know nothing about. I have 2 sons that have been doing martial arts since they could walk and will both be 4th Dan by the time they're 18. No breaks, no lax training, just the way of life it is intended to be. It is who we are and what we do. I know they don't train in a Mcdojang because it's my dojang. I've very proud of everything they do and have accomplished. If you want to smear them based on your generalizations, go ahead. I'll give your opinions all the consideration their due. If you want to see them on the mat and then walk away with the same opinion, at least then I can respect that.


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## Gentle Fist

tshadowchaser said:


> I once went to what was supposed to be a dinner with a group from another school. It turned out to be a promotin ceramony and in the course of the evening the instructor promoted his 13 year old son to 5th degree and named him to be the person to take over the school and sysytem if anything should happen to the instructor.  The young man was a 1st degree at the time.
> The trouble was that no one except myslef, my son, and a person we took with us saw anything strange or wrong.  The young student I had brought did ask if 5th came after first in all sysytems.
> So to answere the OP, yes it is possible . The question is what is the standard of promotion within the sysytem and dose the person reallly have any knowledge and ability



In the U.S. it seems like there are so many styles and sub-styles of martial arts; especially in the Kenpo and Karate fractions.  With there being so many,  systems of this distinction usually have a small population of students.  Small as in under a 1000 or in some cases under a 100.  Seeing how they have such small populations it seems that some founders rush people along so that they can fill the upper ranks of their system so that they can guarantee it's lifespan for after they pass along.

Not saying anything is wrong with it.  But it always comes back to the point that not all black belts are equal, or in this case 4th Dans.  He may be the only forth dan in his style of MA or be one of 10,000 in mine (Judo).


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## pgsmith

> Not saying anything is wrong with it. But it always comes back to the point that not all black belts are equal, or in this case 4th Dans. He may be the only forth dan in his style of MA or be one of 10,000 in mine (Judo).


  This is the point that so many people seem to forget. A black belt doesn't mean a cotton picking thing outside the organization that awarded it. What it means _inside_ that organization can vary widely. So much so that unless a person is also a member of said organization, they can't tell what it means either. Some people have some familiarity with other organizations to be able to get a rough idea of what a black belt means, but many want to immediately assume what they think it means based upon their own organization. 

  I've also noticed that many are incredibly eager to point out how difficult it is to get rank in their organization "to get 2nd dan, you have to hand-walk over hot coals ... backwards!" as if that would make their rank more meaningful and impressive to those of us outside of their organization. Folks, it just doesn't matter! I am familiar with perfectly legitimate organizations that expect each ranking up to 5th dan to take 12 to 18 months. I'm also familiar with another perfectly legitimate organization where the first couple of dan ranks are fairly simple, and they get progressively more difficult, and so take longer to achieve. I have also been a member in another legitimate organization where your first dan, and each subsequent dan grade, were expected to take between 5 and 7 years. None of those ranks mean anything within the organization that I am a part of now.

  Anyone can call themselves a tenth dan soke-dokey. They can come up with all the back-up they want, but I'm still not going to treat them any differently than anyone else unless they are the head of the organization I am a part of.  I'm much more impressed by how people handle themselves, both on-line and in person, than by whatever ranks they may hold.


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## grumpywolfman

pgsmith said:


> This is the point that so many people seem to forget. A black belt doesn't mean a cotton picking thing outside the organization that awarded it. What it means _inside_ that organization can vary widely. So much so that unless a person is also a member of said organization, they can't tell what it means either. Some people have some familiarity with other organizations to be able to get a rough idea of what a black belt means, but many want to immediately assume what they think it means based upon their own organization.



:asian: Good point Paul, I'll admit that I'm guilty of this.
When I hear 'Black Belt,' my own personal expectations and standards become the basis of what that represents to me.


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## grumpywolfman

SapphireStar said:


> ... the standard action movie moves of a raised foot and hands in mock fighting stance.









"I have a 4th Degree Black Belt in Miyagi Karate!"


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## Gentle Fist

pgsmith said:


> This is the point that so many people seem to forget. A black belt doesn't mean a cotton picking thing outside the organization that awarded it. What it means _inside_ that organization can vary widely. So much so that unless a person is also a member of said organization, they can't tell what it means either. Some people have some familiarity with other organizations to be able to get a rough idea of what a black belt means, but many want to immediately assume what they think it means based upon their own organization.
> 
> I've also noticed that many are incredibly eager to point out how difficult it is to get rank in their organization "to get 2nd dan, you have to hand-walk over hot coals ... backwards!" as if that would make their rank more meaningful and impressive to those of us outside of their organization. Folks, it just doesn't matter! I am familiar with perfectly legitimate organizations that expect each ranking up to 5th dan to take 12 to 18 months. I'm also familiar with another perfectly legitimate organization where the first couple of dan ranks are fairly simple, and they get progressively more difficult, and so take longer to achieve. I have also been a member in another legitimate organization where your first dan, and each subsequent dan grade, were expected to take between 5 and 7 years. None of those ranks mean anything within the organization that I am a part of now.
> 
> Anyone can call themselves a tenth dan soke-dokey. They can come up with all the back-up they want, but I'm still not going to treat them any differently than anyone else unless they are the head of the organization I am a part of.  I'm much more impressed by how people handle themselves, both on-line and in person, than by whatever ranks they may hold.



Well said!


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## monk64

Gentle Fist said:


> some founders rush people along so that they can fill the upper ranks of their system so that they can guarantee it's lifespan for after they pass along.



That is a most charitable interpretation 

Other reasons are testing fees, ego massage to keep students engaged, making the organization seem big, the ability to take on more students with assistant instructors, etc.


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## Tez3

grumpywolfman said:


> "I have a 4th Degree Black Belt in Miyagi Karate!"



To be fair he's stood like that because his leg is knackered lol!


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## Yondanchris

I hear ya, I just witnessed an 18 or 19 year old get kicked to 3rd. I started before he was even born! 

Started MA in March of 1993. Got my 3rd in September 2010. Coming up on 20 years in the arts. So I find it amusing when people show up with lots of rank!


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## StreetReady

if you can dream it, you can achieve it. i think it's possible.


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## Black/Red Block

I would have to say no, NOT in my Dojo, they would have to test for there ADULT FULL black belt at 16 so would be looking at Adult 2nd Dan at 18. How can a Child understand the complexity of the art they are practicing, the forms and Kata the aplication of the kata. In my School we work on Bunkai/Application and the 2nd Adult Kata/5th Junior Kata has 3 neck wrenches in it, how do I teach that to a child who is not mature enough to understand when to use lethal force and when not to use lethal force!

If you got the tippy tippy bouncy bouncy 1 stirke and scream at the top of your voice then regroup to begin again stuff then I agree there is no difference in ability as its Non-contact anyway but ask yourself how many MMA clubs have REPLACED non-contact karate classes in the last 10 years Because of this ethos and ethics of Karate.

I have not and will not issue a Full Blackbelt to anyone under the age of 16, regardless of ability, period, my dojo = my rules. This includes my son who is only 22 months old and will be able to do everything I do and more by the time he's 10.

I hate what Karate has become its a "Johnny's mum wants Johnny to have a Blackbelt but she doesn't want him the get any bruises or break a nail doing it" syndrome. What's next Non-Contact American Football where the player faint their tackles to preven injury!!

My school being knockdown has a heavy influx on sparring and how can I put a 12 year old up against an adult for Full contact sparring to earn his "Adult Black Belt"

I watched a local school to me and the Sensei was an awesome teacher, truly encompassed the ethos of Shotokan. Now there was a Teenage Black Belt with a patch on saying Cadet leader or similar, now she was more interested in chatting with her mates than assisting the Sensei by making sure the class was doing their drills correctly. This is why I don't give a FULL Black belt to Children

4th Dan at 18 says:>

**************** MCDOJO WARNING ***********************

http://mcdojo-faq.tripod.com/

http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2007/01/09/how-to-tell-a-mcdojo/

http://www.amam-magazine.com/mcdojo.html

Sorry but I this is my view on gradings, and I can't change it, OSU


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## Black/Red Block

Gentle Fist said:


> Not in Judo, JuJutsu, or BJJ...



One of the classes I attended was a Jujitsu school and it had 10 year old blackbelts - I think it was a Kenpo Jujitsu school though, so was it really Jujitsu. so its not just Karate!


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## Gentle Fist

Black/Red Block said:


> One of the classes I attended was a Jujitsu school and it had 10 year old blackbelts - I think it was a Kenpo Jujitsu school though, so was it really Jujitsu. so its not just Karate!



Kenpo Jujutsu = Karate with fancy name...

In all reality true jujutsu doesn't follow the kyu/dan system unless it has been americanized


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## Gentle Fist

StreetReady said:


> if you can dream it, you can achieve it. i think it's possible.



then I should have been a red belt years ago


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## monk64

I came across a school in New York where the instructor's kids were both listed as instructors with 4th degree black belts in "Karate" - I put that in quotes because no amount of my digging through the site could determine _which_ style of Karate it was.  

One of the kids is listed as a 2011 high school graduate and is a 4th degree black belt.  It also says he "has been training in the martial arts since the age of two."

I've had several children and have a two-year-old right now, and have known many two-year-olds.  There is _nothing_ a two-year-old can do to train in the martial arts, unless you are stretching the definition to include things like potty training so they can someday wear a gi without needing diapers.

I won't shame them by linking here but it's apparently a big school, or so they claim on their site.


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## WaterGal

Depends on the style and organization, I suppose, and how long they want you to wait between belts. In TKD, if you're really really dedicated, you can get a 4th degree in 8 years.  That's the minimum.  I don't think most people, especially kids, are going to do it that fast, but if you start at 6 you could definitely get a 4th at 18, yeah.

And Kukkiwon allows it, but it's a "poom"  grading rather than a "dan" - a junior black belt, if you will.   I  think you can get that at 16.  That's as high as poom goes, though...  after that you have to wait until you're, IIRC, 25 to test for your 5th  degree.


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## arnisador

I've been to TKD tournaments with divisions for 8-10 y.o. 3rd degree black belts.


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## Cirdan

arnisador said:


> I've been to TKD tournaments with divisions for 8-10 y.o. 3rd degree black belts.



Did they need help to tie their gold-striped belts?


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## arnisador

Their mommies were there.


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## Dirty Dog

Velcro belts...

http://www.amazon.com/Martial-Karate-QUICK-TIE-Velcro-WHITE/dp/B008J1IMZW


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## WaterGal

arnisador said:


> I've been to TKD tournaments with divisions for 8-10 y.o. 3rd degree black belts.



Were there any kids actually competing in that division?  I remember a tournament I was at where they had a division for 4-6-year old black belts, and everybody laughed when they called it out, because of course there weren't any!  

I don't think there's any way a kid could get a first degree by age 6, even if they started at 3, unless it's just a "black belt factory" kind of place.  At that age it takes them like 4-6 months to learn one form. And they'd have to have it at 5 to be an 8-year old with a 3rd degree.  Just no way.


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## SPX

MJS said:


> Sadly today, anythings possible, but IMO, I find that anyone that young who has that rank, is laughable at best.  I also find it laughable that this person kid thinks he's indestructable.  Sorry, I dont care what rank you hold, it doesnt mean ya got an "S" on your chest.
> 
> Now, I'm sure some will say, "Well, if this kid started at 4....."  Again, I still call BS on that.  Why?  Well, we have proof in the pudding right here, given this kids atttiude and the way he acts.  No understanding of the BB, what it means, etc.



I'll have to disagree with a few things here.

For one, the kid might be really good.  Maybe he really DID start training at 4.  That doesn't mean that he should be a 4th degree already, but you can't blame him for that.  If you're going to blame someone, blame his instructor.

Second, the TS said that he said what he said during "horseplay" and struck a comical stance, so it sounds like he was kidding around rather than seriously threatening somebody.

And lastly, you may have your philosophical interpretation for what a black belt is supposed to mean, but that doesn't mean everyone will share that view.  A lot of people train martial arts solely as fighting systems rather than paths to spiritual or moral enlightenment.


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## MikeBielat

Unfortunately, in today's society this could be very well be a possibility. As others mentioned, styles vary in the way they do belt promotions and whatnot. 

Instructors looking to make a living off teaching are sometimes forced to think with their wallets. They have bills to pay and need to ensure that people keep coming through their doors. If this person is talking the way that you mentioned then I do not hold that dojo in high regards at all. Being a black belt is a way of life. It is also a total understanding of your art and how to conduct yourself. The more you train then the more this should shine through in their personality. 

I wish it was the same as it was in the old days where everyone was just given a white belt and your blood, dirt and sweat naturally colored the belt through all your training.


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## PoolMan

Last year a girl in India became the youngest blackbelt ever at I think 5 years and 4 months old (don't remember exactly). By getting a BB that young I think she can manage a 4th degree by 18. Does that mean her BB is worth a damn? I don't think so. But that's the reality of the world we live in now.


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## Happy-Papi

Wow, I'm very sad reading this thread. This proves that I belong in the McDojo clan of super kamehameha fighters because I too got my rank when I was in my teens. After all these years... now I feel so dirty, lame and a fake, lol! Our little McDojo group was so small that probably they needed to promote me fast or else the group might get even smaller, hahaha. Our little McDojo was not registered, not popular and probably cannot even be considered as a real martial arts by itself even with the fact that my seniors/teachers are high ranking martial artist who came from different arts cause they are all junk 

Good thing is that I never spent a coin for my training. Transportation, food, tools and equipments were all free and best part is that I received some pocket money for it  Sad thing is that I was the youngest and most of them were about my father's age and I had to bear listening to their corny jokes. But to enter our little McDojo group was a bit tight. Members can only join when invited. Must have experience with several martial arts and skilled with bladed weapons. Must be an excellent swimmer, huge experience in survival techniques especially in the mountains, must enjoy heights like a monkey, must be excellent with firearms, must have some experiences on real fights that could probably have killed the guy but survived and other crazy stuffs... Sad I didn't have even one of these qualities... or maybe that it was because of my good looks, HAHAHA!

On my way to McDonalds now for cheeseburger and some fries


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## pgsmith

That's pretty interesting! 

  No, not what you wrote. I mean the fact that you resurrected a year old thread just so you could whine a while.


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## Happy-Papi

Paul,
My apologies for not noticing the date this thread was first posted. 
I was just reading through the threads without noticing.
My apologies for whining too. Honestly, this just mad me sad.

Ronnel


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## donald1

most karate schools probably would say no to this questions, there are probably some that would do it. usualy though when you get high up in the black belt ranks people are preferred to be older. theres a lot of reasons but one of the big ones is wisdom and experience(often through age)


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