# To Execute Or Not



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

A new study finds that its actually cheaper to keep people locked up for life vs. killing them.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/




> After decades of moral arguments reaching biblical proportions, after long, twisted journeys to the nation's highest court and back, the death penalty may be abandoned by several states for a reason having nothing to do with right or wrong:
> Money.
> Turns out, it is cheaper to imprison killers for life than to execute them, according to a series of recent surveys. Tens of millions of dollars cheaper, politicians are learning, during a tumbling recession when nearly every state faces job cuts and massive deficits.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

I am of mixed mind on the death penalty.

I am not in favor of the state taking human life.  I do not think that the death penalty is an effective deterrent.  However, I do think that the death penalty is the end of a particular person's ability to harm our society and our citizens.  Some people are unable to live within the rules of society, and only the permanent solution of death will protect us from them in a dependable way.

One the one hand, while it may be cheaper to keep an inmate housed for life, an inmate who is alive remains a threat.  A threat to the guard staff, a threat to other inmates, even a threat to people outside of prison, depending on his prison-gang connections.  A person convicted and sent to prison for 'life' may not serve actual life.  Even when that is the original intent of the judge and jury, things change - sentences get reduced, convictions overturned, and there is always the chance, however minimal, of escape.  A convict who has been executed will not offend again, and that is the only finality the system offers.

On the other hand, I am troubled by the small-but-growing number of men on death row who are later found to be innocent due to DNA evidence that was not available at the time.  I also find, as many governors of various states have, that the death penalty is inequitably applied, with a far greater frequency of death penalties given to black men who commit crimes similar to those of whites given lesser sentences.  While a policy is essentially racist, I find it impossible to support.  If that problem can be overcome, then I have no other objections to the death penalty in principle.

The 'financial argument' is an interesting one, because it does not address the one thing that could tip that balance the other way - by putting an end to 20 to 30 year appeal processes and endless frivolous appeals at the taxpayer's expense.  China has a process which is far simpler, and the cost is limited to the cost of the trial itself.  While I do not argue that we should follow China's policy of a bullet to the back of the head immediately after conviction, I think we could control costs by putting a cap on the number of years and appeals that convicts are allowed.


----------



## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

I am for the death penalty because some men do not fear prison. They fear death itself and prefer their victims to be dead while he is alive roaming the earth.

DNA evidence will continue to improve as well another truth finding tools so I would vote to keep the death penalty and it is cheaper than sentencing some sick pervert or evil animal to life imprisonment and it is far more safer for the prison guards.

Some crimes do not call for the death penalty. 

Sometimes, 20 year sentences are appropriate. 

Another times, the death penalty is appropriate.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 8, 2009)

I think a bullet or injection is far cheaper than keeping a person feed and clothed, housed for life.

I also feel that any gang related murder should old an automatic death sentence to be carried out with in year of the case being held. Appeals must be completed within this time or the sentence is carried out.
I know this may bring discussion that needs a separate thread so rather than comment on my personal thoughty start a thread if ou want to discusses  my thoughts on this


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

tshadowchaser said:


> I think a bullet or injection is far cheaper than keeping a person feed and clothed, housed for life.



Technically, it's not - that's the point of the OP.  The appeals process for an inmate condemned to death costs more than the average life sentence.

I would be interested in your thoughts on the disparity in race between blacks and whites convicted of similar crimes.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976#defend

I'm not against the death penalty, per se, but I can't support it while it remains an essentially racist institution.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 8, 2009)

MJS said:


> A new study finds that its actually cheaper to keep people locked up for life vs. killing them.
> 
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29552692/




From data I read a few years ago, it costs about $32,000 USD to keep a minimum to medium security prisoner in detention for a year. 

It did cost about $3,500 a year for maximum security in third world countries in South America. 

Of course their life expectancy was only about 3 years.


----------



## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race-death-row-inmates-executed-1976#defend
> 
> I'm not against the death penalty, per se, but I can't support it while it remains an essentially racist institution.


 
Gang warfare is a racist institution on wheels.

If gang members were put to death within 30 days of sentencing. No more gang warfare would exist.

I understand innocent people have been executed both white and black in the past but please keep in mind that DNA and another truth finding tools are rapidly changing the landscape of crime and punishment. Less people are committing crimes for fear of being discovered because of DNA forensics.

One of these days, it may be possible for DNA forensics to lift fingerprints from latex gloves, even if no latex gloves are found. 

Science and technology will continue to improve.

New laws need to be passed or changed to save the taxpayers money with the appellate process and justice court related expenses.

Better yet, a cheaper and more ancient method that really works is to obey the sixth commandment of the Ten Commandments.

Thou shalt not kill. (Hebrew _ratsach_, to kill, slay or murder. _Killing in self defense is acceptable in the Sight of G-d for the preservation of human life, to defeat and vanquish evil._)


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> From data I read a few years ago, it costs about $32,000 USD to keep a minimum to medium security prisoner in detention for a year.
> 
> It did cost about $3,500 a year for maximum security in third world countries in South America.
> 
> Of course their life expectancy was only about 3 years.



Sounds good, doesn't it?  Let's say that criminals are not deserving of the minimum standards of care we currently provide.  Change our standards, stop 'molly coddling' criminals, treat them harshly, etc, etc.  I get it.  I even feel it from time to time.

However, a couple of things - and please bear in mind that this is not from a liberal, but from a genuine Goldwater conservative (me).

First, we are a nation of laws.  A large part of the expense we assume in feeding, clothing, and housing prisoners has to do with Constitutional challenges that have succeeded.  Ignoring that is ignoring our constitution's prohibitions on such things as 'due process' and 'cruel and unusual punishment'.

Second, I'm proud of our country.  I love the USA and what we stand for.  I like to thing we're not just the best country to live in, but we're a morally just country.  Yes, we make mistakes, and yes, we fall far short of perfect.  But we are decent people, we strive to do the right thing.  I do not want to live in a nation which decides that we will ignore the Constitution's protections for all for the sake of saving money to punish criminals.

And third - if you think our recidivism rate is bad now, wait until people get out of US prisons that are like those in South America.  They won't want to go back, that's for sure.  So one can expect that any confrontation with the police will end in a gun fight to the death.  I really think that's a bad idea.


----------



## CuongNhuka (Mar 8, 2009)

It's cheaper because of the endless stream of appeals and lawyers. Get rid of that, and execution becomes cheaper. 

Note: the above post is NOT to be taken as my approval of, or disdain for, the death penalty. I'm just stating a fact. I'm undecided on the matter.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Gang warfare is a racist institution on wheels.



That's a red herring - an attempt to distract from the facts of death sentences.

Look at the stats.  These are juries exhibiting what clearly appear to be racist inclinations to sentence blacks to death.  Nothing to do with gangs.

The highest rate of death sentences occurs when a black man kills a white man.  Nothing to do with gangs.  When the same death sentence is not given to a white man who kills a black man, that's not 'gang' anything - that's racism.

I do not have a problem with putting people to death who are deserving of such a sentence and who will represent a threat to the safety of decent citizens for the rest of their lives.  They must be removed from society forever for our own sakes.  I do have a problem with the current process,  *which sends far more blacks than whites to death for similar crimes.*


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

CuongNhuka said:


> It's cheaper because of the endless stream of appeals and lawyers. Get rid of that, and execution becomes cheaper.



So how do you do that and not violate US Supreme Court findings on 'due process', 'equal representation under the law' and 'cruel and unusual punishment'?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sounds good, doesn't it?  Let's say that criminals are not deserving of the minimum standards of care we currently provide.  Change our standards, stop 'molly coddling' criminals, treat them harshly, etc, etc.  I get it.  I even feel it from time to time.
> 
> However, a couple of things - and please bear in mind that this is not from a liberal, but from a genuine Goldwater conservative (me).
> 
> ...




Bill,

It does sound good. 

It sounds even better on the surface if you say fly them down in first class and feed them steak on the way then write a check to the country in question. They in a couple of years the payment stops. 

Nice and easy and simple. 


But as you stated the US Constitution has rights and even responsibilities for citizens of the US and the existing court systems have made precedence. I believe in the US Constitution, and also that a society is measured by how it takes care of those it deems unfit for society and also those unable to be active productive members of society.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Mar 8, 2009)

Box of shotgun shells costs me less then $10, any box of suitable rifle ammo costs less than 20.

Feeding, housing and clothing them for life costs how much?


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

1- executions are ONLY more expensive because of the YEARS of appeals. Cut that out, and an execution is a LOT less expensive. The amount of appeals should be limited to 3 years, max from date of sentencing.

2- the dealth penalty isnt racist, it isnt being applied in a racist manner. You know why more browns and blacks get executed? THEY KILL MORE PEOPLE more often. Also, minorities usually have a more extensive criminal record than whites. past criminal record is a factor in sentencing.

Now, before you mini-sharptons get your underwear in a knot._
Disclaimer:
In no way do I think that genectics makes someone more inclined to crime.

BUT

culture DOES

poverty DOES

and the fact is that browns and blacks have, by and large adopted a culture that embraces crime. Gangs are still mostly brown and black people.
Plus, POOR people comitt more crimes than people who are not poor. And minorities tend to be poor in larger numbers.

Poverty and Culture. Now someone will STILL call me a racist, but the numbers are in, the facts are facts, but they will still cry and whine and deny._ Nor does skin color.

that being said, the problem with executions is, we dont do them enough. And we dont do them soon enough. The list of crimes that are death penalty crimes needs to be expanded. some rapes, child molestation (with DNA evidence), selling drugs to children, production of child porn, cop killing, dessertion, i could go on and on.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

horse crap

it is often quoted, but it is crap everytime someone says it

read mylast post for WHY it is crap




Bill Mattocks said:


> the current process,  *which sends far more blacks than whites to death for similar crimes.*


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 8, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> From data I read a few years ago, it costs about $32,000 USD to keep a minimum to medium security prisoner in detention for a year.
> 
> It did cost about $3,500 a year for maximum security in third world countries in South America.
> 
> Of course their life expectancy was only about 3 years.


 
Hrmm how about working a nafta deal and exporting all our maximum security prisoners to third world countries for the duration of the sentences, we could save ourselves over $20,000 a year. sounds like a win win to me...


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Technically, it's not - that's the point of the OP. The appeals process for an inmate condemned to death costs more than the average life sentence.
> 
> I would be interested in your thoughts on the disparity in race between blacks and whites convicted of similar crimes.
> 
> ...


 
I do not think these stats in and of themselves indicate racism at all.
There is alot of key information unavailable here.
Sure it says the majority of convictions were based on whites being killed, but what if most of the murders in the US happen to whites? That stat is not listed there is it? Since whites happen to be a majority of the population, should it not also go that they would be a large percent of the murder victims if everything is equal?

It also does not say how many sentences for the death penalty compared to how many charges with a possible outcome of death penalty.
for example is 10,000 Blacks Were charged with crimes capable of having a death penalty sentance and only 1000 were given it, that would be fairly equal to 1,000 whites being charged with the same and only 100 being sentenced to it? 

Now I do not know the numbers, and it still very well can be something that comes out to be race based, but I am saying there is not enough information in your  link to definitely anything of the kind


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Now, before you mini-sharptons get your underwear in a knot.



The fact that you think anyone who thinks the death penalty as currently applied is racist is the same as Al Sharpton reveals your bias.  How unfortunate - I didn't call you any names.


----------



## searcher (Mar 8, 2009)

Please understand, I am not a fan of the deatth penalty.   Never have, most likely never will.

But I don't understand how a keeping someone in prison is less expensive than a rope or a .22lr shell for that matter?    Keeping convicts from the death penalty from an economic standpoint is pretty pathetic.    The ones who cameup with that need to get something a little bit better. 


Now, I am all for changing the prisons from resorts to "HARD TIME."    But I don't think that will happen any time soon.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

What is the racial disparity in total number of crimes worthy of the death penalty? Im betting more men then women get the death penalty...it is "sexist" too?

What is the disparity in the race of VICTIMS??

The "death penalty" isnt more expensive. The legal process in getting people there is more expensive.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> What is the racial disparity in total number of crimes worthy of the death penalty?



No one knows.  Despite the fact that a lot of studies of racial disparity in death penalty have been done, and all of them (as far as I know) say that yes, there is a definite bias against minorities, what is not accounted for are the overall number of cases in which the death penalty COULD have been applied for, but for whatever reason, the prosecuting attorney chose not to seek it.

It has been often reported by the authors of those studies that District Attorneys across the US routinely refuse to provide that information - according to the UCR requirements, they do not have to, either.



> Im betting more men then women get the death penalty...it is "sexist" too?



I don't know.  However, if it is inequitably applied to anyone - is that a good thing?  I'd be against it if it were inequitably applied to rich people versus poor (or vice-versa).  Equality under the law is one of our founding principles.



> What is the disparity in the race of VICTIMS??



That's actually the crust of the biscuit, you see.  The overwhelming highest number of death penalties awarded on a percentage basis are to black men who kill white men.  Not black on black, or white on white, or white on black.  It appears to be the race of the victim that makes for the most clearly racist verdicts.



> The "death penalty" isnt more expensive. The legal process in getting people there is more expensive.



That's the intent of the argument, I think.  They mean the overall cost of getting down to it.  Since we afford legal protections to all, and we are exceedingly careful when it involves the forfeit of life, there are long drawn out appeals, which the state (and therefore the taxpayer) has to pay for.

I'm guessing you knew that, though.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

searcher said:


> Keeping convicts from the death penalty from an economic standpoint is pretty pathetic.    The ones who cameup with that need to get something a little bit better.



I think the people 'coming up with that' are state governments facing huge deficits.

Most people seem not to be paying attention to California - due to their prison overcrowding problem (a federal judge has run their state prison medical system for years, having 'taking it over' some time ago), the state is planning on simply releasing thousands and thousands of violent criminals onto the streets - they cannot AFFORD to keep them locked up anymore. 

http://www.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUSTRE5190CB20090210



> U.S. judges seek massive California prisoner release
> Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:04am EST
> By Peter Henderson
> 
> ...


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Black victims of violent crime.

Racial differences in violent crime.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Black victims of violent crime.
> 
> Racial differences in violent crime.



Thank you for demonstrating my point.  Although blacks are far more likely (6 times!) to commit murder on blacks (your links), they are more likely to receive the death penalty for committing murder on whites (my links).

And somehow that isn't racist?  Seems odd to me.

EDIT: And just on the chance that your link was meant to refute my statement that DA's typically don't report, blah, blah, blah, I said that they don't report the number of homicide prosecutions in which they could seek the death penalty but choose not to.  You won't find that in FBI crime stats - it isn't there.  It's up to the discretion of individual DA's all over the country.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

What she said.

While I suspect she may be a bit of a nut. Her basic point on the racial disparity in death penalty stats is sound.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> What she said.
> 
> While I suspect she may be a bit of a nut. Her basic point on the racial disparity in death penalty stats is sound.



Ah, no.  Just no.  Her logic is unsound, her math more so.  No comment on her mental state.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Hmmm..what is the racial make-up of most juries during penalty phase?


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Geography Determines Death Sentences



> [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Most people are shocked to find that whether the death penalty is imposed is determined more by where the crime was committed and the capital trial took place than the facts of the actual case[/FONT]


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Hmmm..what is the racial make-up of most juries during penalty phase?



Don't know, it doesn't matter.  Again, the question is not figuring out why the death penalty is given more often by percentage to blacks than to whites, but that it is the case.  It exists - therefore, the system is not equitable.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Geography Determines Death Sentences



That would be another case of inequality before the law, wouldn't it?  Again, if it is true, you prove my point for me.  Call it 'geographical inequality' if you like - the point being, the system is inequitable.  Our legal system calls for equal justice under the law.  This is yet another reason the death penalty isn't.

You're really grasping at straws, but I appreciate the fact that most of your links support my statements! :asian:


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I am for the death penalty because some men do not fear prison. They fear death itself and prefer their victims to be dead while he is alive roaming the earth.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

"Equal Justice"..hmmm....Racial disparity aside..what is the percentage of legal convictions? Is the sentence "just"? 

The point here isnt that the recipients aren't deserving...just that the balance isnt "fair" right?


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Race of death row inmates.

Haven't totaled em up but it looks like more white criminals have actually been executed...balance the % of population with the % of offending...add 3..carry the .02 divide by 6...ahhhh hell.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> "Equal Justice"..hmmm....Racial disparity aside..what is the percentage of legal convictions? Is the sentence "just"?
> 
> The point here isnt that the recipients aren't deserving...just that the balance isnt "fair" right?



That is a tautology.  Those who are sentenced to death are not entitled to fairness in sentencing, because they are sentenced to death, and people sentenced to death are not entitled to fairness.  Circular logic doesn't work.

'Deserving' is not a judgment you or I are entitled to make, according to our Constitution. In Caldwell v. Texas (1891) Justice Fuller said this about the Fourteenth Amendment:  _"By the Fourteenth Amendment the powers of the States in dealing with crime within their borders are not limited, but no State can deprive particular persons or classes of persons of equal and impartial justice under the law._"

Everyone is entitled to equal justice under the law.  If not, then we do not have justice at all.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Race of death row inmates.
> 
> Haven't totaled em up but it looks like more white criminals have actually been executed...



Again, you seem to be really grasping at those straws, my friend.  You're starting to flail about.

More white criminals doesn't mean anything in terms of percentage.  Think about it - there are a lot more white people in the US than black.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

That wasnt my question...if the balance was acceptable would you be for the death penalty.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Again, you seem to be really grasping at those straws, my friend.  You're starting to flail about.
> 
> More white criminals doesn't mean anything in terms of percentage.  Think about it - there are a lot more white people in the US than black.



But statistically blacks are 6-7 times more likely to commit a crime deserving of the penalty.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am of mixed mind on the death penalty.
> 
> I am not in favor of the state taking human life. I do not think that the death penalty is an effective deterrent. However, I do think that the death penalty is the end of a particular person's ability to harm our society and our citizens. Some people are unable to live within the rules of society, and only the permanent solution of death will protect us from them in a dependable way.
> 
> ...


 
Good points Bill.  There was a guy here in CT a while ago, that was in jail for, I think, about 20yrs, before he was found innocent.  All that time wasted.  Now he wasn't on death row, but still. And the Gov. of CT gave him a pretty hefty payment because of this.  

Its amazing how long people sit and sit, before the real facts come out.  Its too bad there wasnt a way to figure out innocent or guilt a bit quicker.  Of course, if there is no doubt at all, as to whether or not the guy is guilty, then I'm all for pulling the switch.  Why let him sit for another 10yrs filing appeal after appeal.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> I am for the death penalty because some men do not fear prison. They fear death itself and prefer their victims to be dead while he is alive roaming the earth.
> 
> DNA evidence will continue to improve as well another truth finding tools so I would vote to keep the death penalty and it is cheaper than sentencing some sick pervert or evil animal to life imprisonment and it is far more safer for the prison guards.
> 
> ...


 
They dont fear it, because its a country club atmosphere, not a prison atmosphere.  With all the perks they get, who wouldnt feel right at home?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> That wasnt my question...if the balance was acceptable would you be for the death penalty.



I am for the death penalty.  I just am not for a racist death penalty.  I said that.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> . I do have a problem with the current process, *which sends far more blacks than whites to death for similar crimes.*


 
This could very well be due to the fact that the minority to non minority ratio isn't equal.


----------



## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Gordon Nore said:


>


 
That picture is funny but seriously, there are people in this world who commit murder and wants to keep on living, roaming the earth. 

If they go to prison, to these demented murderers, it is so what ? They have all day to figure out how to overpower guards and escape only to murder again. It happens all the time. Murderers are insane.

You hear on the TV news " Clifford James III of 555 Madison Street just got out of prison two weeks ago " then they zoom on a body bag being carried out of the victim's house then the cameraman goes on to say " He has a lengthy prison record and is currently wanted in five states. " 

The next time police catch Clifford. He is sentenced to be electrocuted. 

It is of little consolation to the families that he killed the second time around when he should have been electrocuted the first time around and saved that family heartbroken grief.

The bible also sas that satan is the father of lies, a murderer from the beginning or something along those lines ?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

MJS said:


> This could very well be due to the fact that the minority to non minority ratio isn't equal.



Thank you, allow me to amend my statement.  Please insert "higher percentage" for "far more".

The studies showing the racial bias are real, vetted, peer-reviewed, and have caused several state governors to declare a moratorium on the death penalty in their states for now.  One can play silly buggers with numbers all day - it's really pretty clearly factual that there is a racial bias in the application of the death penalty.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> The bible also sas that satan is the father of lies, a murderer from the beginning or something along those lines ?



If the death penalty is applied equitably, I have certainly have no problem with it.  I hold no love for murderers, and I believe I have said elsewhere that in my humble opinion, drug dealers should be sentenced to death as well.

I'm all for killing 'em.  I am also in favor of our nation being decent, honest, and applying the death penalty equitably.  It's our law, and frankly, I question people who are not in favor of our own Constitution - they love it when they like what it says, and get mad when it says something they don't care to hear.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thank you, allow me to amend my statement. Please insert "higher percentage" for "far more".
> 
> The studies showing the racial bias are real, vetted, peer-reviewed, and have caused several state governors to declare a moratorium on the death penalty in their states for now. One can play silly buggers with numbers all day - it's really pretty clearly factual that there is a racial bias in the application of the death penalty.


 
I'm sorry, I think I might be confusing something.  I was talking about the number of minorities vs non that are actually in prison, not ones that are on death row.  

As far as whether or not race plays a part in who is executed more, minorities/non, I don't want to comment on that until I saw some stats.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If the death penalty is applied equitably, I have certainly have no problem with it. I hold no love for murderers, and I believe I have said elsewhere that in my humble opinion, drug dealers should be sentenced to death as well.
> 
> I'm all for killing 'em. I am also in favor of our nation being decent, honest, and applying the death penalty equitably. It's our law, and frankly, I question people who are not in favor of our own Constitution - they love it when they like what it says, and get mad when it says something they don't care to hear.


 
I too, am in favor of it.  As I said, if there is no doubt that someone is guilty of the crime, and death is the punishment that fits the crime, then by all means, get it over with.  Screw all these appeals...strap 'em in, and pull the switch or stick the needle in them and get it done.

On the other hand, as its been pointed out, you have people who may be killed that didnt do the crime.  This is where there is some flaw in the system somewhere.  That is what needs to be fixed.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Post up these studies proving "racial bias" please. 

Im interested in seeing where they claim the bias originates....

And as there hasnt been a SC ruling on the Constitutionality of the death penalty, the opinion of its current Constitutionality  is simply that....


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

I think that there needs to be some simple guidelines made.

Caught "red handed"..3 eyewitnesses, camera footage, forensic evidence and a confession? Straight to the chair.

Same case with some legal process error? Limited appeals...

A case entirely on circumstantial evidence?  let the appeals begin.

Granted the "real world" isnt as simple as that, but some simple rules based on the evidence presented at trial isnt terribly difficult.


----------



## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If the death penalty is applied equitably, I have certainly have no problem with it. I hold no love for murderers, and I believe I have said elsewhere that in my humble opinion, drug dealers should be sentenced to death as well.
> 
> I'm all for killing 'em. I am also in favor of our nation being decent, honest, and applying the death penalty equitably. It's our law, and frankly, I question people who are not in favor of our own Constitution - they love it when they like what it says, and get mad when it says something they don't care to hear.


 
Bill I agree, drug dealers selling crack and people dying of heart attacks and they are in comas with complete and irreversible brain damage on life support.

What is selling booze & flavored drinks, vicodin mixed with sleeping pills to underage girls for the purpose of " getting laid " in his twisted mind and she later dies of an overdose ? 

What about that thin but talented teenage football player who is introduced to the world of heavily armed and dangerous muscular steroid dealers ?

It needs to be viewed the same as someone who floors his vechile into somebody or the lady who poisons her husband for financial gain and runs off with her lover. 

Murder is murder, no matter how you cut it. If someone murders then he or she needs to die. 

The world would have been a lot safer if commonsense was applied and put into action more frequently.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 8, 2009)

I'm not a fan of the death penalty, and I'm glad we don't have it. 

That said, arguing which method (long imprisonment or execution) is cheaper seems disingenuous to me. If it's proven that the death penalty is more expensive, then does it suddenly become more just if you figure out a way to make it cheaper?

No doubt, execution brings finality to the matter. SF argued that it might bring comfort of closure to the families of victims. I don't know, nor do I care to speculate how I might react to the murder of one close to me. That's why courts determine the disposition of a murder case. What if the family didn't want the killer executed? Should a court defer to them?

I think one is either comfortable with the state executing others in his/her behalf or not. I'm not personally. The possibility of a system tilted against a person's race or class, compounded by the possibility of a wrongful conviction, keeps me comfortably in the anti-death penalty camp.


----------



## MJS (Mar 8, 2009)

Of course, if the death penalty wasnt an option, then I'd be in favor of life in prison, with no parole. And IMHO, I strongly think that the prison system needs to be revamped. Multiple hours of rec time, a huge number of programs, weight rooms, etc. Do away with all of it. 1 hour of rec time a day, and you eat, sleep and **** in your cell. During that 1 hr. you can shower, make phone calls, visits, etc., but thats it. I wonder how much $$$ the state would save if they did away with the weight room and the programs that the inmates use as an excuse to get a bit more free time, because if they were really serious about turning the lives around, we wouldn't see so many repeat offenders.

Sound harsh? Sound mean and cold hearted? Will it upset the ACLU? Probably, but hey, dont do the crime if ya cant do the time. They got a roof over their head, 3 squares a day, despite the fact that it may not be the best meal, I'm sure its an approved one, medical care, etc. Anything else is a luxury.

On a side note...I wonder what the turn around rate at Sheriff Joes place in AZ is.  Hmmm...... Maybe just maybe, if more places were like that, it'd give these guys something to think about.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill, wasnt talking about you

the rules here prevent me from naming names, but YOU were not who i was referring to



Bill Mattocks said:


> The fact that you think anyone who thinks the death penalty as currently applied is racist is the same as Al Sharpton reveals your bias.  How unfortunate - I didn't call you any names.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill, your refusal to believe it doesntmake it untrue

the article was correct, you are wrong

there is no racial bias in assigning the death penalty, if anything, there should be MORE non-whites on death row than there is.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Ah, no.  Just no.  Her logic is unsound, her math more so.  No comment on her mental state.


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

I dont know if I really have a "point" in this discussion. I am for the DP. While the idea that some people are sitting on death row on circumstantial cases that could easily be overturned by DNA does bother me, Im not sold on the racial inequality argument. The statistics may be factual on their face, but there may be many "non prejudicial" explanations that could account for it. 

Its accepted that there is a higher percentage of black offenders and black victims. This is due to unfortunate historic, economic, cultural and social influences NOT genetics. Statistically, many of these killings are due to the drug trade which (right or wrong) doesn't sell as a death penalty case as well as an innocent victim of a random crime will. If there was a study that compared say rape/murder convictions on a race vs race basis and proved that a black offender/white victim was X% more likely to result in a DP than a white offender/black victim that would be upsetting..but I havent found one like that. What is the rate of blacks killing whites compared to the other way around? Has there ever been a study? I dont claim to know, but numbers and stats are not a perfect representation of "reality".

And where is this bias coming from? If a jury decides at penalty phase, has there been a study of the racial composition of the jury? Is the claim that the Judges are racist? 

I think it would be interesting (but time consuming) to take those stats I posted earlier with the raw numbers of executed criminals and read each case to see how they compared. In an ideal world I would then like to see all the convictions for similar crimes in those states and see what pans out.

As to politicians suspending the DP...call me cynical, but that doesnt convince me of anything except that they felt political pressure, which is far different from doing "whats right".

I probably should qualify all this by saying that Im only thinking about todays statistics. The "fairness" of how things were done in the 1920's-1960's in the Deep South are outside the scope of what Im thinking about here and now.

Just rambling I guess.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

this is quite simply a stupid thing to say.

it DOES matter and we Do know why

there are lots of black on death row because they
1-commit a LOT of crime
2-they generally have an extensive criminal record

thats all

again, stick your head in the sand if you like, but on this issue, the FACTS are not on your side.

the dealth penalty goes to the people that comitt the most murders, and that group is, by percentage, not white.

deal with it



Bill Mattocks said:


> Don't know, it doesn't matter.  Again, the question is not figuring out why the death penalty is given more often by percentage to blacks than to whites, but that it is the case.  It exists - therefore, the system is not equitable.


----------



## StrongFighter (Mar 8, 2009)

Food 3 x a day needs to be 1 x a day in the a.m. then that is it for the day. 

1 cup of mushy puree for breakfast with 1/2 cup of warm fetid water. 

If they don't know what it is. Too bad for them. 

If they want A.A. or another self improvement services. 

Do it on their own dime, not the government's dime.

Getting a university diploma in prison on the government's dime. Nope. Too bad.

Reverse that government sponsored dime for students and not for inmates.

Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona has the right idea.

Electricity, hot and cold water would be banned for the inmates. Only the correctional guards and the wardens have air conditioning, warm heat. This not only saves taxpayers money. Inmates have no control over any aspect of their lives. 

They decided to show the victims who was boss so now they have correctional officers who show them who is the BIG BOSS. Prisoners playing sports in the prison yard will be banned, in fact they would not see sunlight or trees or even breathe fresh air for the duration of their sentence.

Access to lifting weights. There is no reason for inmates to be all jacked up muscular. Put them on a severely restricted diet losing muscle mass and bone density. Push ups, pull ups and sit ups are banned too. If guards see inmates doing push ups or sit ups. Physical violence will be visited upon the inmates.

Prisoners would get x-rays of their vital organs as they lose weight then the mechanized sewing machine makes white circles on orange prison uniforms and smaller red circles patched on so that correctional guards can open fire on inmates trying to escape to murder and rape again. 

Gang members would have their hands chopped off so they can not flash gang signs just right before they murder and rape then the gang members would have their feet chopped off so they can not attempt a prison escape. Gang tattoos would be sliced off with no anesthesia.

If I was the head of the Bureau of Prisons. The prison system would be revamped and scaled back with commonsense measures, hardcore security with no compassion. I would have run a very tight ship. Hard muscle bound correctional guards with dark sunglasses and M-14 rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm. 

They have television sets in another states. That would be banned along with prison yards, weight rooms, sport bags containing football, basketballs, soccer balls will be thrown out. 

I am from Texas and the TDCJ has the right idea. To hell with political correctness. Why reward the murderers, gang members and rapists with a cell of their dreams, steak and eggs for breakfast with milk, spaghetti for lunch with fruit cup for dessert, beef stroganoff and potatoes with gravy for dinner ? Why reward the murderers & rapists with college education while in prison and it is slapped on the taxpayers ?

They are there because they are the worst of the worst as it rightfully should be. They ain't no church choirboys. 

THEY ARE MURDERERS AND RAPISTS. THAT IS WHAT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DOES NOT GET.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> this is quite simply a stupid thing to say.



The truth is a stupid thing to say?



> the dealth penalty goes to the people that comitt the most murders, and that group is, by percentage, not white.



Not by a whole lot.  In 2007, it was a difference of 308 murders.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_05.html

Race of offender:

White Offender 2918 (white victim) + 245 (black victim) = 3,163
Black Offender 2,905 (black victim) + 566 (white victim) = 3,471

Of these, the highest proportion of death penalty awards are given to black offenders who kill white victims.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/death-pen...cts/death-penalty-and-race/page.do?id=1101091

It says that since 1977, 79% of all death penalties have been given to people who had white victims.  But white victims are not 79% of the murder victims.

That's the facts.

I'm sorry you can't deal with it.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

amnestyusa?

yeah, thats not a biased source at all..............

wether you like it or not Bill, the world has LOTS of "conditional modifiers"

lets just SAY, i dont think it is legit, but lets just SAY that those figures are right.

whats most likely?

a massive conspiracy to punish the black man for having the temerity to kill a white person

or

the victim is taken into account.

blacks killing whites is often career thug killing innocent victim. Blacks killing blacks is often career thug killing another career thug

juries take that into account.

if you think they shoudnt, that's understandable.

doesnt matter but it is understandable.

now think about what you posted. 

"White Offender 2918 (white victim) + 245 (black victim) = 3,163
Black Offender 2,905 (black victim) + 566 (white victim) = 3,471"

look at that

now remember that there are 3 TIMES as many whites as blacks in the country, and now you know why so many are on death row.

pretty much cased closed.


----------



## Gordon Nore (Mar 8, 2009)

StrongFighter said:


> Food 3 x a day needs to be 1 x a day in the a.m. then that is it for the day.
> 
> 1 cup of mushy puree for breakfast with 1/2 cup of warm fetid water.
> 
> If they don't know what it is. Too bad for them.



Brilliant. Now you've got a black market for nutrition. Order some body bags.



> If they want A.A. or another self improvement services.
> 
> Do it on their own dime, not the government's dime.


AA is a fellowship, not a service. It isn't funded technically; it's self sustaining through members passing the hat. Members on the outside donate a portion of their proceeds to help members on the inside. Self-improvement, by definition, means that people are improving themselves. That must be banned. Heaven forbid, someone goes to prison and makes some effort to figure why he's been a **** and tries to fix it.



> Sheriff Joe Arpaio of Maricopa County, Arizona has the right idea.


Sheriff Joe is a self-serving demagogue operating on a mentality at par with a gang lord.



> Electricity, hot and cold water would be banned for the inmates. Only the correctional guards and the wardens have air conditioning, warm heat. This not only saves taxpayers money. Inmates have no control over any aspect of their lives.





> They decided to show the victims who was boss so now they have correctional officers who show them who is the BIG BOSS. Prisoners playing sports in the prison yard will be banned, in fact they would not see sunlight or trees or even breathe fresh air for the duration of their sentence.


Like I said, he's basically a gang boss with a gun.



> Access to lifting weights. There is no reason...
> 
> Prisoners would get x-rays...
> 
> Gang members would have their hands chopped off...


:BSmeter:


> ...Hard muscle bound correctional guards with dark sunglasses and M-14 rifles chambered in 7.62x51mm...


Sounds like gay porn to me.



> They have television sets in another states. That would be banned along with prison yards, weight rooms, sport bags containing football, basketballs, soccer balls will be thrown out.


Nothing more commonsensical than throwing out athletic equipment.



> I am from Texas...


Too bad for Texas.



> They are there because they are the worst of the worst as it rightfully should be. They ain't no church choirboys.


I didn't know prison was so much fun.



> THEY ARE MURDERERS AND RAPISTS. THAT IS WHAT POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DOES NOT GET.


Knock of the PC conspiratorial crap. Before PC there was such a thing as common decency. That means that we don't compel our jailers to behave like common criminals just because they guard criminals. What you're suggesting here, not only is torture to the inmates -- you're suggesting that professional corrections officers be used as torture squads.

PC doesn't have squat to do with this. The penal system has always had a range of advocates and opponents. You invoke harshness and brutality as if its a new idea that hasn't been tried before. Nobody in this thread has said anything about coddling murderers.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 8, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> amnestyusa?
> 
> yeah, thats not a biased source at all..............



I take information where I find it, and I do consider the source.

But in general, it is a very ugly trend in the USA on both the left and the right - impeach all data that comes from sources you don't like.  It doesn't matter if it is right or wrong - if it comes from "those people" it cannot be accepted.

Truth is truth no matter where it is found.  One job is to find out if it is true or not, not to reject it out of hand because one does not like what it says.



> wether you like it or not Bill, the world has LOTS of "conditional modifiers"
> 
> lets just SAY, i dont think it is legit, but lets just SAY that those figures are right.
> 
> ...



It does not have to be either one.  It can also be bias on the part of the average, everyday citizen who serves on jury pools.  Not a conspiracy.  The general, basic, underlying racism that pervades our society.



> blacks killing whites is often career thug killing innocent victim. Blacks killing blacks is often career thug killing another career thug
> 
> juries take that into account.
> 
> ...



What's closed is your mind.  And that is sad.   You're desperate to ignore the truth, like dog having his nose forced into his mess, you're twisting back and forth like crazy, anything to avoid confronting the truth.  No point in taking this any further.


----------



## Twin Fist (Mar 8, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> What's closed is your mind.  And that is sad.   You're desperate to ignore the truth, like dog having his nose forced into his mess, you're twisting back and forth like crazy, anything to avoid confronting the truth.  No point in taking this any further.




learn from yourself Bill. Reality doesnt care what we wish. Reality doesnt care how we think things "ought" to be

it just IS


----------



## Archangel M (Mar 8, 2009)

Ive seen people who thought they had a corner on "the truth" before....


----------

