# Toshindo vs the grappler



## wiz cool c (Nov 6, 2015)

I am an ex Bujinkan member, over a decade ago, still train but primarily in the Chinese arts. Just curious how do Toshindo members train against the treat of going up against a modern sport style grappler


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## Mephisto (Nov 6, 2015)

Eye gouge/knee stomp/throat punch/balls kick! Bro! Do you even ninja?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 6, 2015)

yeah i got a black belt in Bujinkan but been out of it for a least a decade. i thought maybe would have more  detail on the toshindo training methods for dealing with a modern style grappler, that was a pretty generic answer you gave there. is it the standard half speed defense against a choreographed technique stuff?


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> yeah i got a black belt in Bujinkan but been out of it for a least a decade. i thought maybe would have more  detail on the toshindo training methods for dealing with a modern style grappler, that was a pretty generic answer you gave there. is it the standard half speed defense against a choreographed technique stuff?



Why would you like to know?


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## Mephisto (Nov 7, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> yeah i got a black belt in Bujinkan but been out of it for a least a decade. i thought maybe would have more  detail on the toshindo training methods for dealing with a modern style grappler, that was a pretty generic answer you gave there. is it the standard half speed defense against a choreographed technique stuff?


Most likely, the only way to be able to reliably be able to deal with s grappler is to go train grappling. Grapplers train against skilled players regularly and when training with resistance they know the best way to avoid being taken down by a skilled grappler. Any non grappling focused system teaching grapplibg defense is only dealing in speculation.


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## Steve (Nov 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Why would you like to know?


Yes.  Good question.  The answer to your question will really depend on your answer to drop bears question.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> against a modern sport style grappler


I assume it should contain both stand up grappling and ground grappling.

In stand up grappling, unless you can knock your opponent down before your opponent can get a clinch on you, you have to know how to deal with clinch.

So what kind of clinch knowledge and clinch training does the Bujinkan system have?


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## kuniggety (Nov 7, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Most likely, the only way to be able to reliably be able to deal with s grappler is to go train grappling. Grapplers train against skilled players regularly and when training with resistance they know the best way to avoid being taken down by a skilled grappler. Any non grappling focused system teaching grapplibg defense is only dealing in speculation.



This. I've done stand up styles in the past. Whatever I might have thought, I really had no idea how to deal with a grappler. Hell, I'd say even after 2 1/2 years of BJJ I still don't...

As an aside, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, but every time I see toshindo I think of the old PS game Battle Arena Toshindo.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Why would you like to know?


 
O come on that is a bujinkan type of answer. Cause it is an interesting topic and this is a martial art message board designed for talking about martial arts.im not planning on challenging anyone don’t worry I live in china and do kung fu now.
Are there any toshindo members here? Since no one can give me a clear answer I think it is safe to assume, same as bujinkan ,half speed defense against choreographed techniques


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## drop bear (Nov 7, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> O come on that is a bujinkan type of answer. Cause it is an interesting topic and this is a martial art message board designed for talking about martial arts.im not planning on challenging anyone don’t worry I live in china and do kung fu now.
> Are there any toshindo members here? Since no one can give me a clear answer I think it is safe to assume, same as bujinkan ,half speed defense against choreographed techniques



OK this was one of my old wrestling coaches for a bit before he moved to top team puket.

I have no idea how to stop him taking me down short of using a baseball bat.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 8, 2015)

yeah i know what you mean man, one of my coaches is a pro fighter named yaohangong, if i ever had to face him in a real fight i would have to go for his eyes with a weaopn. it is like he is not human


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## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2015)

Frankly, the only system that I've seen that's effective against grappling is various MMA systems, and they're effective because they actually have grapplers in their schools teaching them how to grapple. Unfortunately, what I've seen out of Toshindo hasn't been very convincing. As Mephisto said, it deals with a lot of speculation, and what's worse their counters are based on some pretty outdated grappling concepts. Modern grappling is evolving at a pretty rapid pace, with Bjj, Wrestling, Judo, Sambo, Shao Jaio, and MMA all merging at various levels.  If you head into a Judo school nowadays, they're probably going to be teaching you Bjj, wrestling, or Sambo alongside your standard Judo practice, and vice versa.

In short, if your goal is to learn how to counter grappling, go to the source. I'm pretty sure Toshindo instructors themselves have said that their grappling/anti-grappling system isn't designed to fight against a skilled grappler.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 15, 2015)

There is a such thing called "mat time". How much time that you have invested on the mat is something that you cannot fake it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 15, 2015)

I don't know if we have any currently active members practicing Toshindo, although I think we may have in the past.

I have seen Steve Hayes teach a couple of techniques from the guard (top and bottom) and I wasn't very impressed. That's been a while, so hopefully he's figured it out better since then.

Theoretically, Toshindo shouldn't need much in the way of technique for dealing with modern sport style grapplers, because it's supposed to be focused on self-defense. You're not likely to be attacked in a dark alley by a jiu-jiteiro pulling guard on you. It makes me suspect that Steve come up with the stuff he was showing as a selling point to convince his students they could take on a MMA fighter rather than in order to address a real self-defense need.


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## Buka (Nov 15, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know if we have any currently active members practicing Toshindo, although I think we may have in the past.
> 
> I have seen Steve Hayes teach a couple of techniques from the guard (top and bottom) and I wasn't very impressed. That's been a while, so hopefully he's figured it out better since then.
> 
> Theoretically, Toshindo shouldn't need much in the way of technique for dealing with modern sport style grapplers, because it's supposed to be focused on self-defense. You're not likely to be attacked in a dark alley by a jiu-jiteiro pulling guard on you. It makes me suspect that Steve come up with the stuff he was showing as a selling point to convince his students they could take on a MMA fighter rather than in order to address a real self-defense need.



Spent a week with him a long time ago, too. I wasn't impressed with anything having to do with grappling, or how to deal with grappling, but I really liked him and enjoyed so much of what he had to say about other things in Martial Arts. He was a lot of fun to be around and exchange ideas with. 

Good times.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 16, 2015)

Hanzou I agree and disagree with what you are saying. Yes inorder to have a realistic idea of the skills of a grappler you should experience it first hand. On the other hand these guys are not training to compete in grappling competitions, but for self defense where they can use the techniques that they tain in and are all banned from competition.

I have done sombo, bjj judo, and have competed in two grappling comps so have some experience in sport grappling. I also have a bb in bujinkan but have done it in about ten years. In my current training which is based in the Chinese systems, I like to train with my coach and friend pro fighter Yao Honggang when I can. I like to work mostly on escapes and incorporate them into my kung fu training, this way if my stand up fails and I do end up on the ground I got a better chance of escaping and getting back to my feet and utilize the kung fu skill that I practice daily.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 16, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Theoretically, Toshindo shouldn't need much in the way of technique for dealing with modern sport style grapplers, because it's supposed to be focused on self-defense. You're not likely to be attacked in a dark alley by a jiu-jiteiro pulling guard on you. It makes me suspect that Steve come up with the stuff he was showing as a selling point to convince his students they could take on a MMA fighter rather than in order to address a real self-defense need.


 
I don’t know it is pretty common these days, like saying a bad guy might not know anything about boxing.. and even if a bjj trained guy doesn’t try mugging you,there are some wanna be tough guys out there that might possible challenge another style to a fight based on the early gracie examples


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## Hanzou (Nov 16, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> Hanzou I agree and disagree with what you are saying. Yes inorder to have a realistic idea of the skills of a grappler you should experience it first hand. On the other hand these guys are not training to compete in grappling competitions, but for self defense where they can use the techniques that they tain in and are all banned from competition.



That is a nonsensical approach to the dilemma, and it has been disproven over and over again. 

If a grappler gets you with an Osoto Gari and you land on your head, you're either unconscious, or dead. I don't care how many secret or deadly techniques you know. The difference between his Osoto Gari, and your Dim Mak technique is that he's done it over and over again to a wide variety of opponents of various sizes at full resistance. You on the other hand, have never actually done the deadly technique on anyone. Again, you have *speculation*, he has experience. 

Osoto Gari is a "competition technique" that can kill someone depending on the surface it's perform it on. It's also one of the most basic techniques in Judo and Bjj.



> I have done combo, bjj judo, and have competed in two grappling comps so have some experience in sport grappling.



Then why are you worried about grappling in Toshindo?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 17, 2015)

I am just trying to start an interesting topic here. And it has been proven again and again ? show me some videos of toshindo or ninjutsu guys in real street fights losing against grapplers. If there aren’t any it hasn’t been proven again and again, why? Cause these guys aren’t doing what they do for trophies. Self defense is totally different from competition. One time I defended myself against three bigger guys on a Manhattan corner late at night outside a bar by using a broken bottle and evasive footwork. I don’t know of any sport grappling technique that would have worked under those conditions. And I learned that strategy from my old bujinkan days.

there are so many situation where you don’t want to grapple on the ground with a guy. How about you are at a bar or night club where people usually have friends with them. Or on a subway platform. realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient. After all how many different guard passes do you need to know for a self defense situation/street fight.


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## Steve (Nov 17, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> I am just trying to start an interesting topic here. And it has been proven again and again ? show me some videos of toshindo or ninjutsu guys in real street fights losing against grapplers. If there aren’t any it hasn’t been proven again and again, why? Cause these guys aren’t doing what they do for trophies. Self defense is totally different from competition. One time I defended myself against three bigger guys on a Manhattan corner late at night outside a bar by using a broken bottle and evasive footwork. I don’t know of any sport grappling technique that would have worked under those conditions. And I learned that strategy from my old bujinkan days.
> 
> there are so many situation where you don’t want to grapple on the ground with a guy. How about you are at a bar or night club where people usually have friends with them. Or on a subway platform. realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient. After all how many different guard passes do you need to know for a self defense situation/street fight.


I grapple on the ground, cause I'm always the one with friends.  I pull guard so my friends can kick the guy on top.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 17, 2015)

Steve said:


> I grapple on the ground, cause I'm always the one with friends.  I pull guard so my friends can kick the guy on top.


When you punch and if your opponent is

- standing, he can lean back and cancel out most of your striking force.
- on the ground, since the ground is behind his body, your striking force will go into his body 100%.

This is why to take your opponent down and then knock him out while he is on the ground is an excellent strategy. You don't need to "box with your opponent for 15 rounds". The key here is, you have to remaining your own "mobility" while taking your opponent down.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 17, 2015)

that’s funny steve. I have used the guard three time myself in real situations. one time the guy did have friends with him ,luckily they didn’t jump in, and i was thinking of trying to use him as a shield if they did, but it never happened. the other time was in a lady bar in Beijing [i live in china] and the hooker chick was slapping me while i had my feet at the hips of one guy and would remove one to kick him in the face from time to time while another guy was yelling at me to leave. the third time, i was blindsided by a manager back in the state when i worked at a gym [this guy was a black belt by the way in an eclectic system] and landed on a small table he tried to grab my throat, he was in my open guard I arm bared him. the last one happened at the famous 92nd street Y on the upper east side of Manhattan and can be verified.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2015)

I rolling guillotined a guy once.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> I am just trying to start an interesting topic here. And it has been proven again and again ? show me some videos of toshindo or ninjutsu guys in real street fights losing against grapplers. If there aren’t any it hasn’t been proven again and again, why?



Jigaro Kano disproved that when he founded Judo and his students defeated traditional Jujutsu schools. Kyokushin guys disproved that when they beat the snot out of kung fu guys. The Gracies disproved it multiple times in numerous challenge matches.

The flaw is believing that sport martial arts designed around competition aren't applicable to self defense or fighting so you don't have to take them seriously, nor account for their strengths because your martial art was practiced by samurai and ninjas in feudal Japan. Wrestlers train for trophies, but that doesn't stop them from being excellent at closing distances, and taking people down in highly efficient ways.

Also, I thought this topic was about Toshindo's grappling, not your personal exploits.... 



> there are so many situation where you don’t want to grapple on the ground with a guy. How about you are at a bar or night club where people usually have friends with them. Or on a subway platform. realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient.



It should be noted that grappling isn't just ground fighting.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 18, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> realistically every martial artist with self defense as their goal should learn some ground fighting. I would estimate about 6 to 8 months worth is sufficient.



I'd say that's about right. That would be enough to give you the tools to defend yourself on the ground against an untrained opponent and get to your feet safely. You'll want more if you want the option of reliably _winning_ fights on the ground, but 6-8 months should teach you the essentials of survival.



wiz cool c said:


> After all how many different guard passes do you need to know for a self defense situation/street fight.



Most of the time, none. A mugger or rapist is highly unlikely to pull guard on you and if you do somehow end up in an assailant's guard they probably aren't going to know how to use it effectively. That's why I questioned Steve's motives in teaching what he was showing.


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Most of the time, none. A mugger or rapist is highly unlikely to pull guard on you and if you do somehow end up in an assailant's guard they probably aren't going to know how to use it effectively. That's why I questioned Steve's motives in teaching what he was showing.



I always find it funny when I see "self defense" advocates actively practicing how to get out of or countering the guard.

It's as if they have no concept behind the purpose of the position.


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## elder999 (Nov 18, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> I am an ex Bujinkan member, over a decade ago, still train but primarily in the Chinese arts. Just curious how do Toshindo members train against the treat of going up against a modern sport style grappler



There's a video on this site somewhere of Stephen Hayes demonstrating Toshindo against the grappler..........I can't find it anywhere, but as I recall.........*eh*......_not so much._


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## Hanzou (Nov 18, 2015)

elder999 said:


> There's a video on this site somewhere of Stephen Hayes demonstrating Toshindo against the grappler..........I can't find it anywhere, but as I recall.........*eh*......_not so much._



Here's a Toshindo guard pass variation;






I remember I showed this vid to my class one evening. We tried to perform it on each other, and each time we did, the person performing this "pass" ended up on the bottom of someone's mount.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 18, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Here's a Toshindo guard pass variation;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the one elder was referencing. As far as I can tell, Steve took a catch wrestling move and tried to make it more "Toshindo-ey." Unfortunately he doesn't really understand the guard or the ground game and so he took out everything that made the original move a viable technique. (Actually the original catch wrestling move is kind of low-percentage, but at least it's a legitimate technique that can work under the right circumstances.)


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## wiz cool c (Nov 18, 2015)

They won in sport matches, believe me there where rules, like it was a one on one fight with no weapons, that is just to name a few. People training for self defense are not training to win competitions. Things that work that can save you on the street are not necessarily the best tactic for completion. Rolling around for 10 minutes trying to pass a guard is about as realistic as a jump spinning side kick in an elevator for self defense. Why do police carry a guns and tasers and have back up hmmm. I mention my own experience cause I have done sport grappling and have a BB in Bujinkan the main source of toshindo. This give me experience in both worlds, therefore I can talk from my own experience and not follow the popular trends like a mindless robot.

I already mentioned one good example, I had three bigger guys surrounding me and broke a bottle and used evasive footwork, and they eventually left. I suppose I should have clinched one of them worked some knees ,gone for the take down, done a little ground and pound then went for the submission right? That is what MMA would have done, or minus the ground and pound and do the take down and work the submission. Ok and I would have wound up in the hospital. Does sport grappling teach stay in your feet and use evasive foot work and use an improvised weapon? Ok then well then it doesn’t teach self defense, it teaches sports, thank you.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 18, 2015)

I got another good example of how sport grappling and self defense are very different. Back when I lived in Beijing[I live in a different city now] One of the wrestling coaches where I learned shuai jiao was a really big Chinese guy about 6 1 and 200 pounds[for Chinese standards that’s big]. His specialty was freestyle wrestling [the school taught Greco roman ,freestyle and Chinese style”shuai Jiao”. One time he was out with his friends driving and there was some beef over a traffic accident. There were a couple guys in the other car as well. This coach in his early 20s at the time with his size and training gave him unimaginable advantage in a one on one street fight, with another average Chinese guy that would stand about 5 foot 7 weigh in at about 155 pound and had never thrown a punch in his life. So this wrestling coach went up to the driver’s side window and grabbed the guy, the guy had a blade or reached for a blade not sure, but cut the coaches hand bad enough that he need surgery and can make a complete fist ever again.

Self defense is not only different in the physical training of sport style grappling but psychologically different as well. For example the sport athlete is thinking win. In a match you go in to win, be aggressive and gain points. In self protection you are not trying to win all the time, but evade and avoid completely at times, escape, cheat. I trained with Hayes a couple of times long time ago. I don’t think what he does is all that great in way of techniques but agree with another guy here he is a really cool dude to talk too. But if grappling meatheads are going to start preaching the Jesus is the only way gospel to me ,I will explain to them that there are all kind of variables outside a competition mat that change the dynamics of a self defense situation.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> They won in sport matches, believe me there where rules, like it was a one on one fight with no weapons, that is just to name a few. People training for self defense are not training to win competitions. Things that work that can save you on the street are not necessarily the best tactic for completion.



There are rules in the street too, they're oftentimes called *laws*. I've seen quite a few self defense demos for example where people will soccer kick a downed opponent in the head. Doing something like that can potentially put you in jail for a long time. So yeah, me performing a Judo/BJJ/Wrestling pin so they can't move, or hyperextending someone's leg so that they can't chase me, or putting someone to sleep are probably better ideas than curb stomping someone in the head repeatedly to make sure they're KO'd.



> Rolling around for 10 minutes trying to pass a guard is about as realistic as a jump spinning side kick in an elevator for self defense. Why do police carry a guns and tasers and have back up hmmm. I mention my own experience cause I have done sport grappling and have a BB in Bujinkan the main source of toshindo. This give me experience in both worlds, therefore I can talk from my own experience and not follow the popular trends like a mindless robot.



Again, why would anyone be attempting to pass a guard in a self defense situation for several minutes unless they're the assailant? I'm curious how someone who has supposedly studied grappling could keep making this error over and over again.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

ok but how much time do you spend passing guards in BJJ class? so if you were training in a self defense system that time could be spent working knife defense or something else. And yeah street fights have rules called laws,tell the criminals that. Most people training in say toshindo or bujinkan are less likely to fight over a rude remark and walk away then say a tough guy grappler is.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

In reply to Tony Dismukes. i think with Steven Hayes and his teaching defense against a guard is to make his students somewhat familiar with present day threats. also being that BJJ and MMA was created by the original challenge matches of the gracies I guess, if you are running a school there is a possibility of being challenged even assaulted by a grappler. The old ninja way of being prepared for everything idea.  .


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> ok but how much time do you spend passing guards in BJJ class?



We spent quite a bit of time learning how to pass guards, however anyone who has studied Bjj or grappling systems that employ the guard would know the context in which you're learning those tactics. I have yet to encounter a Bjj instructor who has ever said that we're learning guard passes for self defense. My instructors have always said that guard passing is pretty much a Bjj vs Bjj affair, and you mainly learn it so that you can break the guard of another jujitsu player.

However, it's important to note that the person *in the guard* can use that experience to learn how to effectively counter someone trying to break their guard in a self defense situation or otherwise.

Anyone who has actually practiced Bjj would know this.



> so if you were training in a self defense system that time could be spent working knife defense or something else.



There are knife defenses within Bjj, and they're about as effective as those found in other (non- FMA) TMAs (i.e. not very).



> And yeah street fights have rules called laws,tell the criminals that. Most people training in say toshindo or bujinkan are less likely to fight over a rude remark and walk away then say a tough guy grappler is.



Haven't spent much time around Bjj or Judo brown and black belts have you?

It shows.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

Right and that is the point in sport vs self defense training. I always hear how sport fighting is the only way to go. Go for who? Young athletic aggressive guys? Well that is not and does not have to be the goal of all humans that study martial arts. Yes if you spend the majority of your training time on sport fighting you will be better at sport fighting. But as I mentioned before there are so many other variables that happen outside of a sport JJ match, and time could be better spent working against techniques that could be used by bad guys. One of the old Bujinkan instructors worked as a prison guard for Rikers island, I once asked him if he ever used his skills, he replied[daily] so how could these useless traditional skills work for him daily in one of the worst prisons in America? And as far as using skills taught in say Toshindo or bujinkan in a self defense situation against a grappler well it would have to take place on the streets ,not for sport, do you understand this part?


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> Right and that is the point in sport vs self defense training. I always hear how sport fighting is the only way to go. Go for who? Young athletic aggressive guys? Well that is not and does not have to be the goal of all humans that study martial arts. Yes if you spend the majority of your training time on sport fighting you will be better at sport fighting. But as I mentioned before there are so many other variables that happen outside of a sport JJ match, and time could be better spent working against techniques that could be used by bad guys.



I think you missed the point of this discussion (which is kind of hilarious since you started the topic in the first place). The point is that if a person practicing Toshindo is seeking to better defend themselves against a grappler, they should probably go out and learn some grappling from a grappling art. No offense to Toshindo and Mr. Hayes, but the stuff I've seen from Toshindo grappling is questionable at best. Which is quite sad honestly, because it should be quite easy for someone like Stephen Hayes to get someone to teach his students effective grappling techniques.



> And as far as using skills taught in say Toshindo or bujinkan in a self defense situation against a grappler well it would have to take place on the streets ,not for sport, do you understand this part?



The location doesn't mean a hill of beans if the Toshindo individual doesn't have the tools necessary to neutralize a skilled grappler. That Toshindo video above (that you defended) has more technical holes in it than swiss cheese. The most glaring of which is the notion that you're going to be defending yourself inside someone's guard in a self defense situation. As for the other problems, well let's just say that even white belts in Bjj don't make some of the mistakes he was making in that vid.

And again, your concept of "no rules in da streetz" is nonsensical. You can probably justify gouging someone's eye out or cripple them if you can prove that they're trying to rape or kill you. Heaven help you though if you gouge someone's eye out or cripple them because he grabbed your girlfriend's ***, and then tackled you when you had a problem with it.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

There is an expression never back an animal into a corner without a way out. This is one major different in psychology between sport grappling and self defense training. The sport grappler is out there trying to win a match, in self defense you have this mentality that you are the trapped animal. You are in the right and will do whatever it takes to survive.


 You said it has been proven over and over again then mention competition matches that took place between different styles. Again [competition matches]. In order for a toshindo or bujinkan practitioner to use their techniques which incorporate extremely dirty fighting techniques they would have to be literally attacked by a grappler in an unfriendly environment, which would put them in a situation where they would use any tactic to escape.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> There is an expression never back an animal into a corner without a way out. This is one major different in psychology between sport grappling and self defense training. The sport grappler is out there trying to win a match, in self defense you have this mentality that you are the trapped animal. You are in the right and will do whatever it takes to survive.
> 
> You said it has been proven over and over again then mention competition matches that took place between different styles. Again [competition matches]. In order for a toshindo or bujinkan practitioner to use their techniques which incorporate extremely dirty fighting techniques they would have to be literally attacked by a grappler in an unfriendly environment, which would put them in a situation where they would use any tactic to escape.



And you've just demonstrated two more examples of flawed thinking here;

1. A person who is trained in sport wouldn't have the will to survive if their life was threatened? Nonsense.

2. "Those people defeated by sport MAs would have won if they would have just gotten a chance to use their dirty secret techniques!" More nonsense. Trying to bite Rickson Gracie, Jon Jones, or Gary Ton in the face and going for his nuts isn't going to stop him from gaining a dominant position and proceeding to bash your face in.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> This is one major different in psychology between sport grappling and self defense training. The sport grappler is out there trying to win a match, in self defense you have this mentality that you are the trapped animal. You are in the right and will do whatever it takes to survive.



However a great many people are able to switch from a 'sports' attitude' to a 'survival' attitude easily enough, it's a cliché to say you react how you train but that doesn't mean it's true. MMA fighters can just as easily use 'dirty' techniques as ones allowed by MMA rules, I've done it as well as many others.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

the difference is the people training for competitions are what usually under 30 young fit and athletic. For these people they work well, but are not necessarily the best tactic for self defense as mentioned before. I once defended myself against three bigger guys with evasive foot work and a improvised weapon, no technique taught in a grappling class could have saved my *** in that situation. I learned those strategies from bujinkan. A self defense system. I also don’t think I would be running around a BJJ competition on a mat with a broken bottle trying not to get cornered by three guys, so yes they are different


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.


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## elder999 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.



Actually, a rape is the one area where fighting from the guard is a self defense must.

And, while the eyes are a good target for results, she'd be better off raking a guy's face with her hand than trying to get a pen into one...a pen is more suited towards other soft targets.....


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

yes the guard could come in handy if a girl ends up in that position defending herself. i disagree with the rake to the face instead of the pen to the eye.a rake to the face might piss an agressor off and end up making matters worse, where a pen to the eye even if it doesnt land point on is likely to put a guy out long enough for her to run. the key is to have the pen out and ready before anything happens as i mentioned before


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## elder999 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> yes the guard could come in handy if a girl ends up in that position defending herself. i disagree with the rake to the face instead of the pen to the eye.a rake to the face might piss an agressor off and end up making matters worse, where a pen to the eye even if it doesnt land point on is likely to put a guy out long enough for her to run. the key is to have the pen out and ready before anything happens as i mentioned before


I only meant that in a self-defense scenario,  rakes to the face are more likely to injure an eye-other targets are more worthy of a pen; miss the eye, and it's not likely to cause injury, and, with most pens, it's really a "one-shot" deal, two at best, and most of the pens that people carry are going to be broken in some way that loses their utility as a weapon...believe me, this is something I know *a lot* about.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.




Why do you assume that MMA fighters only use techniques that are allowed in MMA competitions, do you think that's all they know? Why do you assume a fighter would automatically go for a takedown? I think you have a limited understanding of what MMA fighters train, most aren't pro fighters, most have a fight once or twice a year so train a TMA and/or self defence, even pro MMA fighters have more techniques than they use in competition. Many fighters don't do takedowns in competitions let alone in a self defence situation.
I know quite a lot about female self defence, I'm only different from your hypothetical female in that I'm two inches taller. If all I had to rely on was a choice between carrying a pen and a takedown I think I'd be in serious trouble.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

elder999
 it you had let’s say a 6 foot 5 280 Bubba in prison type guy wanting to butt rape you ,and you had a choice of raking his face or going for an eye with a pointy pen which would you choose?


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## elder999 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> elder999
> it you had let’s say a 6 foot 5 280 Bubba in prison type guy wanting to butt rape you ,and you had a choice of raking his face or going for an eye with a pointy pen which would you choose?



I'd poke him with the pen, but I wouldn't be aiming for his eye-get it?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

Tez do MMA fighters use weapons? do they practice against multiple opponents. do they practice in the dark, or practice defense against ,flexible, bladed,blunt and projectile weapons? and most sports athletes as mentioned a few times already are younger fit aggressive athletic types. there are techniques that are better suited for injuring a bad guy than boxing a wrestling.

Here is another story that teaches this example, after I had reconstructive knee surgery here in china, I had to wear a cast on my leg for three months [its how they do it here].at that same time I had some jealous Chinese guy threatening me about his gf that I messed around with[long story]. Now he knew what I looked like and I didn’t know what he looked like. So I got a thousand Chinese people around me not knowing which one could be this guy and im in a cast. Luckily I had a cane with me at all times. So if he had attacked me would I be bobbing and weaving and throwing knees and elbows working for submissions? No I would be using that cane as a self defense tool, guess what I learned that not in a grappling school but through ninjutsu training. I also used a set of psychological tricks to keep myself out of danger I also learned in ninjutsu not grappling. and I have done judo ,BJJ Sombo, and one of my coaches is a pro MMA fighter. I have competed in two grappling comps before as wel,l so do have experience in both.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> the difference is the people training for competitions are what usually under 30 young fit and athletic.



Everyone who trains in a competitive martial art isn't training for competitions, athletic, or is under 30 years old.

I mean seriously, where are you getting this stuff?



> For these people they work well, but are not necessarily the best tactic for self defense as mentioned before. I once defended myself against three bigger guys with evasive foot work and a improvised weapon, no technique taught in a grappling class could have saved my *** in that situation. I learned those strategies from bujinkan. A self defense system. I also don’t think I would be running around a BJJ competition on a mat with a broken bottle trying not to get cornered by three guys, so yes they are different



You keep regurgitating this incident over and over again. We get it, you defended yourself against three bigger guys with a broken bottle and "Ninja footwork". Please note that a broken bottle and ninja footwork isn't applicable to every self defense scenario.



> Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building. Should she shoot in for the takedown mount her would be attacker and work for a submission or maybe tko. I would tell her to carry a pen in her hand when alone at night and go for the assailants eyes the weakest part of any human body.



And if she misses, and/or gets the pen knocked away, what is she going to do then?

Ninja footwork? 

Howabout teaching the girl some grappling and how to stab someone with a pen?


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## bigfootsquatch (Nov 19, 2015)

It's always clear about those who have trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and those who have not. They throw around ridiculous scenarios about how BJJ practitioners only train for sport and know nothing else. How many have actually trained to an intermediate rank like even purple belt? How many have trained in the traditional self defense curriculum? Do most of the Bujinkan/Toshindo guys get the idea of a real martial art from their teachers or because they have trained in the system long enough to have made an informed decision on their own? (if you have- then good, let's talk)

BJJ was designed for the WEAKER person to survive. If you trained at a school that didn't teach that and techniques to back up that, then you had a bad experience with an incompetent teacher. Just like, if you trained at a Xkan school that relied on the 1,000 year old art line. There are merits and concepts to be incorporated from the modern and old schools. 

Judo wiped the floor with the traditional systems because of the training methodology. It's offspring, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, did the same thing. 

Nothing prepares you for every eventuality (Some older systems actually do a better job of conveying multiple attackers in terms of strategy though)

Lastly-Stop tossing around the "sport style" mantra, especially in such a condescending context. It's an overly obvious sign that you do not know what you're talking about.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> Tez do MMA fighters use weapons? do they practice against multiple opponents. do they practice in the dark, or practice defense against ,flexible, bladed,blunt and projectile weapons? and most sports athletes as mentioned a few times already are younger fit aggressive athletic types. there are techniques that are better suited for injuring a bad guy than boxing a wrestling.
> 
> Here is another story that teaches this example, after I had reconstructive knee surgery here in china, I had to wear a cast on my leg for three months [its how they do it here].at that same time I had some jealous Chinese guy threatening me about his gf that I messed around with[long story]. Now he knew what I looked like and I didn’t know what he looked like. So I got a thousand Chinese people around me not knowing which one could be this guy and im in a cast. Luckily I had a cane with me at all times. So if he had attacked me would I be bobbing and weaving and throwing knees and elbows working for submissions? No I would be using that cane as a self defense tool, guess what I learned that not in a grappling school but through ninjutsu training. I also used a set of psychological tricks to keep myself out of danger I also learned in ninjutsu not grappling. and I have done judo ,BJJ Sombo, and one of my coaches is a pro MMA fighter. I have competed in two grappling comps before as wel,l so do have experience in both.



I think you have a very narrow definition of MMA fighters, many I know do train with weapons, not for comps but because they are martial artists. Many do train against multiple opponents, practice against weapons etc etc etc because they are martial artists and have interests that extend beyond just competing in MMA.

MMA despite the apparent size of the UFC is still a minority sport around the world, there are actually very few professional full time MMA fighters so most are amateurs ( whether or not they receive a purse for fighting, they don't earn a living at fighting) who by the way don't fit your description of being aggressive younger athletic types, MMA fighters tend on the whole to be pretty laid back personalities. many don't actually start MMA until their late twenties early thirties having already been martial artists.

Now that's the point you are missing I think, that MMA fighters are martial artists with interests and most likely high grades from different styles of martial arts, many are very interested in self defence and train regularly just for that. You seem to think that MMA must be about 'working for submissions' but I'd suggest that your limited experience of MMA ( and martial artists as well as self defence practitioners) doesn't give you the whole picture.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

I already mentioned this true story to try to illustrate how grappling in a competition and a street altercation are different, but I think most of you have been so brain washed and follow the masses like zombies that you don’t listen to anything that goes against the popular trends. Let me post it again

Back when I lived in Beijing[I live in a different city now] One of the wrestling coaches where I learned shuai jiao was a really big Chinese guy about 6 1 and 200 pounds[for Chinese standards that’s big]. His specialty was freestyle wrestling [the school taught Greco roman ,freestyle and Chinese style”shuai Jiao”. One time he was out with his friends driving and there was some beef over a traffic accident. There were a couple guys in the other car as well. This coach in his early 20s at the time with his size and training gave him unimaginable advantage in a one on one street fight, with another average Chinese guy that would stand about 5 foot 7 weigh in at about 155 pound and had never thrown a punch in his life. So this wrestling coach went up to the driver’s side window and grabbed the guy, the guy had a blade or reached for a blade not sure, but cut the coaches hand bad enough that he need surgery and can no longer close his hand completely.

Now as I have mentioned before I have trained in and competed in grappling comps. They usually start with two opponents on a mat, with a referee and judges and someone saying ready begin. Nowhere in a grappling class or competition do you get your thumb sliced open. So see things really are different in the street and in competition. Not long ago there was some MMA guy that touched a girl in a gas station then got his *** recked outside by several of that girls friends, anyone see that one on youtube. How could that happen, multiple opponents aren't allowed in MMA matches are they

And to the people calling me a liar proof that I have competed in grappling comps,this is a judo comp I also did a grapplers quest two years before this comp but don’t have the video for that one


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> I mention my own experience cause I have done sport grappling and have a BB in Bujinkan the main source of toshindo. This give me experience in both worlds, therefore I can talk from my own experience and not follow the popular trends like a mindless robot.


It's good to have different perspectives to work from. I have black belts in both Bujinkan Taijutsu and BJJ and I apply the experiences with one to my understanding of the other.


wiz cool c said:


> I already mentioned one good example, I had three bigger guys surrounding me and broke a bottle and used evasive footwork, and they eventually left. I suppose I should have clinched one of them worked some knees ,gone for the take down, done a little ground and pound then went for the submission right? That is what MMA would have done, or minus the ground and pound and do the take down and work the submission.


Well, not exactly. That's what a MMA fighter who didn't understand the situation he was in might have done. A _smart_ MMA fighter would apply his skillset in a more appropriate manner for the context.

I teach BJJ, not MMA, but I do my best to make sure my students understand how to apply their techniques in a way that fits the situation - whether that's a street assault, a tournament match, or restraining a drunken friend.



wiz cool c said:


> In reply to Tony Dismukes. i think with Steven Hayes and his teaching defense against a guard is to make his students somewhat familiar with present day threats. also being that BJJ and MMA was created by the original challenge matches of the gracies I guess, if you are running a school there is a possibility of being challenged even assaulted by a grappler. The old ninja way of being prepared for everything idea.  .



If so, he didn't do his homework.

First step for handling the challenge match is to just not accept the challenge.

If you are assaulted by a sport grappler, he's unlikely to pull guard on you. That's not what the guard is for.

Finally, if you were to be assaulted by a vaguely competent sport grappler and somehow ended up in his guard, the technique Steve is showing will not work and will put you in a much worse position.



wiz cool c said:


> You said it has been proven over and over again then mention competition matches that took place between different styles. Again [competition matches]. In order for a toshindo or bujinkan practitioner to use their techniques which incorporate extremely dirty fighting techniques they would have to be literally attacked by a grappler in an unfriendly environment, which would put them in a situation where they would use any tactic to escape.



Yeah, this is where these discussions tend to break down. There _are_ important differences between the best mindset and tactics for sport competition and those appropriate for self-defense. The whole "dirty fighting" thing is not that important. Not only can a "sport" fighter use "dirty" techniques, he or she can use them more effectively than someone without that background. I can eye-gouge you from the top of mount a whole lot more effectively than you can eye-gouge me from the bottom of mount.

Leaving aside the 95% of self-defense that precedes any actual fight (awareness, avoidance, threat hardening, de-escalation, etc), I think the biggest differences between sport and street come down to
1) Street awareness needs to be more diffuse -  monitoring the surroundings is just as important as focusing on the opponent in front of you.
2) Dis-engagement and escape is usually a preferable "victory condition" in the street. "Defeating" your opponent is not necessarily a requirement for winning. This changes your go-to techniques.

"Sport" fighters such as boxers, MMA fighters, etc, do have highly effective tools in their skillset to help with dis-engagement and escape when that is needed. the trick is switching the mindset as needed.



wiz cool c said:


> the difference is the people training for competitions are what usually under 30 young fit and athletic. For these people they work well, but are not necessarily the best tactic for self defense as mentioned before.





wiz cool c said:


> Tez3I have no doubt a young fit grappler or MMA competitor could defend himself, but does that mean those techniques would be the best choice for a 100 pound 5 foot 2 female being attacked by a rapist in the hallway of her building.



Actually, the best "sport" technique is not highly dependent on athletic attributes. Athleticism is always _useful_, both  in sport and "street" situations. It's necessary in competition when your opponent has all the same technique that you do. However, the best technique generates the maximum benefit possible from whatever attributes you have. I'm 51 years old and I was never particularly strong or athletic. I regularly submit guys who are half my age and much stronger than I am.

As far as a 100 pound woman defending herself against a much larger attacker - weapons are indeed an excellent equalizer. However even when you get to weapons the debate comes up about how "sportive" is optimal for weapons training.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2015)

bigfootsquatch said:


> It's always clear about those who have trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and those who have not. They throw around ridiculous scenarios about how BJJ practitioners only train for sport and know nothing else.



In fairness, there _are_ BJJ practitioners who train just for the sport and don't care at all about the self-defense applications. I even personally know a couple of black belts who fall into that category.

I wouldn't venture to say what percentage of the BJJ student base has that attitude. I do know there are a lot more schools these days that only focus on preparing for tournaments than there used to be.

I personally think folks who take that approach are missing out on a large part of the art, but they're having fun and it's not my business to tell them they're wrong.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?



Good grief I wish you'd stop using me as your example ( okay I don't have back problems, knees are a bit iffy after many years of abuse in martial arts, parachuting and horse riding) 

Seriously I wouldn't use either, I would ( and do) use tried and test techniques designed specially for self defence which doesn't just include physical techniques but uses awareness, conflict management understanding attack and attackers, basically I would teach self defence as taught by people like Geoff Thompson, Peter Consterdine and Marc McYoung.
I understand that's not what the OP is about but if you want training for a specific purpose you need to pick one that is specifically for that purpose.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?


Valid question, but my answer is more complex than the choices you offer...

1) My background includes a lot more than Bujinkan and BJJ, so I'm not limited to drawing from those two.
2) Most of self-defense (as previously noted) is not physical. If said theoretical 60-year old lady with back trouble wants to have a fighting chance with the physical side of self-defense she's going to have to put some significant time and effort into training regardless of what I or anyone else teaches her.
3) I can teach "vital area attacks" and "improvised weapons" in 10 minutes. If you want to be reliably effective with either you need to put time into developing actual striking skill and weapons skill respectively. The "vital area" and "improvised" parts are an easy add-on once you have the delivery system.
4) BTW - my BJJ does include "vital area attacks." Just last night I was showing my students where kicking the groin fits into a defense they were drilling for defending against a standing attacker when they've been knocked down. As mentioned above, the hard part is developing a solid delivery system where you can land effective strikes while simultaneously protecting yourself. Once you have that, it's pretty easy to get used to aiming for the most vulnerable areas.
5) If I was limited to drawing just from BJJ and Bujinkan, I'd probably teach more *techniques* from BJJ but teach a *strategy* more influenced by my Bujinkan background.
6) If the student had a mindset that could handle it and a life situation that warranted it, I'd probably focus mostly on FMA-based weapons training - how to use a cane or knife. Improvised weapons are an easy add-on once the student has that foundation. I'd still include some BJJ fundamentals on how to protect herself if she gets knocked down.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

There have been cases of women who have used triangle chokes (i.e. competition techniques) to protect themselves;

Woman triangle chokes attacker unconscious, judge awards her £500

Woman sailor thwarts Dubai rape attempt with leg stranglehold | The National


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If the student had a mindset that could handle it and a life situation that warranted it, I'd probably focus mostly on FMA-based weapons training - how to use a cane or knife. Improvised weapons are an easy add-on once the student has that foundation. I'd still include some BJJ fundamentals on how to protect herself if she gets knocked down.



A brick in the handbag is always a good weapon! Actually considering most women's handbags they make very good weapons even without the brick!


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> A brick in the handbag is always a good weapon! Actually considering most women's handbags they make very good weapons even without the brick!



A gun in the handbag works as well as a brick for blunt trauma, as well as providing other options.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 19, 2015)

thanks for the answer tony. i myself have done various arts for 30 years. i dont think i would have a 60 year old women with back problems rolling around though,just my opinion

.
tez i dont know if you are a women or man or how old you are or anything, but as i mentioned before ,Bujinkan also includes aspects outside of physical attacks, and the techniques have and are used by law enforcement. I also already mentioned I had a Bujinkan instructor that works at one of the worst prisons in the US and told me he uses his skills daily. At the old Bujinkan dojo we also had policemen and body guards that also used their skills in the real world, and these skills weren’t exactly created under peaceful conditions either.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> ok Tony you have a lot of experience and a respectful attitude and i respect you for that. let me ask you ,if you were to teach a 60 year old lady that has back problems self defense would you teach her bjj tactics or bujinkan tactics such as improvised weapons and vital area attacks, be honest now?



It is not what you promise. It is what you deliver. 

So you can have a system that teaches old women to fight a group of big men in the dark with weapons. But it dosent mean it is actually going to work.

A 60 year old in a mma school does not fair as well as a young athletic person because they just don't fight as well generally. And it is represented by the training.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> tez i dont know if you are a women or man or how old you are or anything,



I have just told you lol. I should also tell you I've used my martial arts also in the real world  ( and for longer than even you) and quite often in my job before I retired.  I'm not arguing about Bujinkan at all, my argument is that your perceptions of MMA are skewed.

I wouldn't write off a 60 year old woman rolling around by the way, people are a lot fitter these days and now in the West, 60 is regarded more as being middle aged rather than old. As for the back problems, if attacked that's the last thing you would worry about so if she needed to roll she'd roll!


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is not what you promise. It is what you deliver.
> 
> So you can have a system that teaches old women to fight a group of big men in the dark with weapons. But it dosent mean it is actually going to work.
> 
> A 60 year old in a mma school does not fair as well as a young athletic person because they just don't fight as well generally. And it is represented by the training.



Tsk tsk! really it depends on the 60 year old woman doesn't it, if she's had 50 years of martial arts training and fighting then perhaps the young ones should worry. As for fighting as well...that's a matter of opinion, you learn as you get older to fight clever......and dirty.


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## Hanzou (Nov 19, 2015)

Eh.. I got subbed by a 58 year-old female blue belt a few years back. She caught me slipping, and I got a kimura for my troubles. 

The moral of the story is don't underestimate your elders.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 19, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> . i dont think i would have a 60 year old women with back problems rolling around though,just my opinion



Not sure if by "rolling around" you mean ukemi, sparring, or just ground fighting in general. I spent a lot of time in the Bujinkan "rolling around" in that first sense.

As far as ground fighting goes - an elderly woman who is physically attacked by a larger opponent has an excellent chance of being knocked down. If she wants the ability to defend herself once she's on the ground, she will have to spend time training on the ground. If she's physically unable to handle training on the ground, then being knocked down will mean she has lost the fight.

As far as sparring goes, that depends. You develop a lot of important tools from it, but your body can pay a price. At a certain point the trade-off may not be worth it for some individuals. When I teach BJJ, I use a number of live and semi-live drills that are more focused than normal sparring/randori and some of those might be more appropriate for an elderly student with physical limitations.




wiz cool c said:


> Bujinkan also includes aspects outside of physical attacks, and the techniques have and are used by law enforcement. I also already mentioned I had a Bujinkan instructor that works at one of the worst prisons in the US and told me he uses his skills daily. At the old Bujinkan dojo we also had policemen and body guards that also used their skills in the real world, and these skills weren’t exactly created under peaceful conditions either.



Sure. There are also law enforcement officers who train Karate, BJJ, Judo, and a host of other arts who swear that their art works for them in the course of their duties. It never hurts to ask them for specific examples of how they've applied their art and learn from their experience.

It does seem that you've drifted quite a bit away from the original question though. This isn't the "Is Bujinkan training great or does it suck?" thread.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Tsk tsk! really it depends on the 60 year old woman doesn't it, if she's had 50 years of martial arts training and fighting then perhaps the young ones should worry. As for fighting as well...that's a matter of opinion, you learn as you get older to fight clever......and dirty.



Perhaps. But if she dosent then she dosent. You shouldn't have to manipulate the training so she is winning all the time.


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## bigfootsquatch (Nov 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, there _are_ BJJ practitioners who train just for the sport and don't care at all about the self-defense applications. I even personally know a couple of black belts who fall into that category.
> 
> I wouldn't venture to say what percentage of the BJJ student base has that attitude. I do know there are a lot more schools these days that only focus on preparing for tournaments than there used to be.
> 
> I personally think folks who take that approach are missing out on a large part of the art, but they're having fun and it's not my business to tell them they're wrong.



I agree with you, but most people who continually talk about "sports arts" are training against an overextended lunge punch and have never set foot in a bjj school,  and we don't judge xkans because of completely unrealistic training methods and the internet warriors it produces.

AND, there are plenty of BJJ/MMA internet warriors too, so don't think I'm being biased . I also train in both.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Perhaps. But if she dosent then she dosent. You shouldn't have to manipulate the training so she is winning all the time.




What? who said anything about 'manipulating' the training? sweetheart, the 60 year old is the bloody instructor lol!


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> What? who said anything about 'manipulating' the training? sweetheart, the 60 year old is the bloody instructor lol!



And i am sure she cleans up everybody in the room.


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And i am sure she cleans up everybody in the room.




It worries me a bit that you miss the point of so many posts, not just mine but there you go. C'est la vie.


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It worries me a bit that you miss the point of so many posts, not just mine but there you go. C'est la vie.



The point is you are awsome and all your friends are awsome.  I agree with you. They do seem awsome. 

Now we have got that out of the way. Back on to the subject.


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## Steve (Nov 19, 2015)

It's at least worth considering that hubris might be something to beware of if you are 60 years old and wipe the mat with all comers.  Technique matters a great deal, but size, strength, athleticism and youth are also important factors in combat.


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## kuniggety (Nov 19, 2015)

Steve said:


> It's at least worth considering that hubris might be something to beware of if you are 60 years old and wipe the mat with all comers.  Technique matters a great deal, but size, strength, athleticism and youth are also important factors in combat.








Technique over age


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## drop bear (Nov 19, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Technique over age



Are we comparing like for like here?  Or are we comparing somone with the advantage of ten plus years training. 

Look if it will preserve some egos lets just say a 60 year old will progress in martial arts as fast as a 20 year old.  
Does everybody feel warm and fuzzy now?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

in my 30 year of martial arts, I have done both traditional styles like, tang soo do,bujinkan,shaolin kung fu[which I still do],bagua zhang and Tai Chi. Also sport systems like judo, bjj,sombo and tai boxing. I am more of a traditionalist to be honest, I have never been the competitive type. I am good at sparring and fighting but not good at competiting. It just goes against who I am, I don’t feel the need to go out and win., I have always been a defense fighter and that works for me. I have nothing against grappling or MMA, one of my best friends and coaches here in china is a pro fighter Yao Honggang, his little brother is fighting in korea in the UFC in a week or two I think.

For me I don’t like people telling me only MMA and grappling is useful for a real fight,why? Cause it is not true. How do I know it is not true? Cause I have used many traditional techniques in real fights that grapplers/mma guys on the internet would swear don’t work. These techniques do work and work well, but again fights on the street have many variables that competitions don’t. That is not to say a MMA guy or grappler competitor cant fight on the street. but for someone not competing, maybe older less fit, have injuries or disabilities these sportive methods may not be the best alternative. These days sports guys have the blinders on and think the whole world wants to be the next UFC champ and is under 30 and a super badass, its childish really..


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

if we are to say talking techniques to teach a 60 year old women with back problems self defense form bujinkan system. Can start with teaching her how to use common object as weapons, in bujinkan or ninjutsu there are 5 categories of weapons, flexible, blunt, projectile, bladed and combination. So basically anything can be used as a weapon. Next there are some nice nasty clawing ,striking pinching poking methods to defend against grabs and hold, which can cause enough pain to allow time to [escape] yes escape is the key here. I would incorporate a basic break fall, that could actually work double as a back exercise and a break fall, and possible some simple escapes from the ground to get back to your feet to run away.

 Also could talk about and train how to listen to your gut feeling and prepare ahead of time. For example the second you feel something is not right ,you can take out say a pen and hold it in your hand, maybe before you enter the building, or when walking alone at night on the street, or if some guy is acting crazy on the bus.
People here keep mentioning grappling and MMA, but are ignoring the points that I stated many situation that grappling would not work [on the street]. before I mentioned a time when I was in a leg cast and had a jealous guy stalking me. Anyone here like grappling with a cast on after reconstructive knee surgery? But I had a cane with me at all times and am familiar with using a cane as a weapon through a self defense art like bujinkan. I also used evasive tactics to travel around in as low key and unseen way as possible being a foreigner in a cast with a cane. these are also psychological techniques that are taught in systems like ninjutsu, not for sport but for self protection.


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## kuniggety (Nov 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Are we comparing like for like here?  Or are we comparing somone with the advantage of ten plus years training.
> 
> Look if it will preserve some egos lets just say a 60 year old will progress in martial arts as fast as a 20 year old.
> Does everybody feel warm and fuzzy now?



99.999999999999999% of people don't have the skill set of Relson Gracie. I really agree with you as age/physique/sex/etc really are important. I linked the video because I think it's funny to watch.


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The point is you are awsome and all your friends are awsome.  I agree with you. They do seem awsome.
> 
> Now we have got that out of the way. Back on to the subject.



What a strange post. You really go way off on a tangent sometimes, in fact so far off it's incomprehensible.


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> People here keep mentioning grappling and MMA, but are ignoring the points that I stated many situation that grappling would not work [on the street].



I don't know how to break this to you...YOU are the one that keeps mentioning MMA! You are the one that keeps saying that MMA is no good because it's grappling, well, the thing is, _it's not just grappling is it_? MMA fighters aren't just MMA fighters they are also martial artists most of whom train in other others and also self defence, they are more than proficient in being able to defend themselves because it only involves a quick mind click and you've changed into reality mode.You need to realise that MMA isn't just grappling, that MMA fighters don't always grapple even in an MMA competition. You brought it up now please accept the words of those that do MMA and understand that MMA isn't what you think it is! what you see on the UFC is competition, you know nothing, although you think you do because you have a friend going into the UFC, about the training involved in MMA.
No one here has said that grappling is specifically good for self defence, it's good IF you are taken down but only you keep going on about it.


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## Hanzou (Nov 20, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Technique over age



Relson reminds me of Clint Eastwood's character from Grand Turino; Essentially an old man you don't want to mess with. He's as old school Bjj as they come, and I'd hate to get on his bad side.


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## bigfootsquatch (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> in my 30 year of martial arts, I have done both traditional styles like, tang soo do,bujinkan,shaolin kung fu[which I still do],bagua zhang and Tai Chi. Also sport systems like judo, bjj,sombo and tai boxing. I am more of a traditionalist to be honest, I have never been the competitive type. I am good at sparring and fighting but not good at competiting. It just goes against who I am, I don’t feel the need to go out and win., I have always been a defense fighter and that works for me. I have nothing against grappling or MMA, one of my best friends and coaches here in china is a pro fighter Yao Honggang, his little brother is fighting in korea in the UFC in a week or two I think.
> 
> For me I don’t like people telling me only MMA and grappling is useful for a real fight,why? Cause it is not true. How do I know it is not true? Cause I have used many traditional techniques in real fights that grapplers/mma guys on the internet would swear don’t work. These techniques do work and work well, but again fights on the street have many variables that competitions don’t. That is not to say a MMA guy or grappler competitor cant fight on the street. but for someone not competing, maybe older less fit, have injuries or disabilities these sportive methods may not be the best alternative. These days sports guys have the blinders on and think the whole world wants to be the next UFC champ and is under 30 and a super badass, its childish really..




The only person with blinders on in this group is you. You continually insult very effective martial art styles. No one had taken away anything from the styles you mentioned, but you continually talk about those "sport arts." (I guess bjj being standard army training doesn't matter?)

Regardless you made your point and have also proven you aren't willing to listen to others, so why do you keep posting the same thing?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?

*try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………*


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?
> 
> *try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………*



I had a friend who got pregnant in the back of a Mini ( it's an iconic British car, the old one not the bigger new models) years ago, with a cast on her leg right up to the top of her thigh so I'd never rule anything out! 

and that has as much to do with the OP as the above questions have................................

I don't know anything about Toshindo, I do know a lot about BJJ and what I can tell you that style v style threads never end well. What is the point, honestly what on earth is the point of style v style threads?


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?
> 
> *try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………*



To your first question, they certainly would if that was all that they had learned in the way of martial arts..oh, they might bash someone with the cane first, but if things got to the rolling around on the floor stage, what else would they use>

As to your second question, I'm from New York, so I'll answer with another question: _does it have to be either or? _Why not both, or some combination of things? The oldest jujutsu student I've ever had was 87 years old when he started, He couldn't do everything-in fact, some things he could do made me pretty nervous-but we worked with what he could do.

Surely, someone with "30 years of experience" in numerous arts (does that mean one or two years of experience in more than 10 arts, or what?) could understand that.......


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

you are from new York wow so am I big deal. Yeah you can mix and match but the point here is at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense and  it has been proven again and again in competition. so meaning everything other then sport grappling is useless. so then with that being said answer the question to prove a point, is bjj the first art of choice for teaching a newbie at 60 with back problems self defense? Or would you rather be taught how to use a cane as a weapon or go from cross body to mount then supine armbar, if you are injured and need to defend yourself in the previously mentioned scenario


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## Buka (Nov 20, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Relson reminds me of Clint Eastwood's character from Grand Turino; Essentially an old man you don't want to mess with. He's as old school Bjj as they come, and I'd hate to get on his bad side.



Love the Gran Torino analogy. Never thought of that before, but definitely yeah.

Really nice guy, too. But scarier/edgier than his kin.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> you are from new York wow so am I big deal. o




I am from new York="answer a question with a question."

If you are from New York, then you'd know what I meant by that..

(Are you sure you're even 30 years old?)


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

45 in February, been doing martial arts since my early teens. Have several black belts. Been living in Asia the last 8 years. Had 6 articles published for kung fu/ tai chi magazine. Have a book being published and have a documentary film being made about my life in china. Any other questions?


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> if I am the one with blinders on will someone answer my question, would they use BJJ to defend themself if they had a cast on their leg and just had reconstructive knee surgery and walked around with a cane. Also answer the previous question, would you teach an 60 year old women with back problems BJJ for self defense,or how to use improvised weapons?
> 
> *try not to avoid the question and mention how I am …………*


Well, I already answered most of your question earlier, but you've added the bit about defending myself with a cast on my leg.

Since you mentioned knee surgery, I'll presume you mean a full leg cast that allows no bending of the leg at all. That gives me even more motivation than usual to not rely on physical fighting methods for self-defense at all, since 99% of the techniques from any martial art (including Bujinkan taijutsu) are now out of reach. Escape and evasion are probably off the table as well, leaving me with the usual default options of awareness, avoidance, and de-escalation. Fortunately those are normally sufficient.

If I was trapped in an unavoidable physical altercation, then my first option would be to use the cane, drawing (largely but not exclusively) from my FMA experience. My leg would be a significant handicap, but the weapon would hopefully be an equalizer. If they got past the cane, then we would be into clinch territory. My clinch game draws from a number of arts, including Muay Thai and BJJ, but I would be leaning on a set of tactics I learned from a JKD instructor. Once again, the leg would be a major handicap, but you do what you can with what you have. If it does come to the clinch, there's an excellent chance I could be knocked down due to the lack of stability and mobility from my leg. If I got knocked down, then I would absolutely be drawing on my BJJ experience. Once again, the leg would be a major handicap, but you do what you can.

Regardless of what art I was to draw on (Bujinkan, BJJ, or anything else), the leg would be a significant problem and would require adapting techniques on the fly. The only thing approaching an easy answer to the problem of fighting with your whole leg immobilized in a cast is gun-fu.

Getting back to the point other people were making, you started out this thread with a question about Toshindo techniques, but you seem to have switched off into a crusade to prove that Bujinkan rocks and BJJ & MMA suck for the street. In general, starting discussions to argue "your style won't work" doesn't tend to go well.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> 45 in February, been doing martial arts since my early teens. Have several black belts. Been living in Asia the last 8 years. Had 6 articles published for kung fu/ tai chi magazine. Have a book being published and have a documentary film being made about my life in china. Any other questions?



Yeah-you seem to have all the answers, why are you even here asking?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

no tony see the problem is as usuall no one here even knows anyhting about the style i asked about but instead right at the beging i got a ,i dont want to say again so i will copy and past[ at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense and it has been proven again and again in competition. so meaning everything other then sport grappling is useless. so then ]and then in comes the brigade,,so I want to make a point that sport grappling has its place but logic does too.

Not saying I don’t think bjj is usefull I have used an arm bar,neck crank and rea naked choke in real fights, trying to make a point here that there are many differences of self defense and on the mat.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yeah-you seem to have all the answers, why are you even here asking?


 
None of your business;]


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

No seriously though the question is to toshindo practitioners, but since you are not one there is no point in hearing what you got to say


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense



Nope. I just re-read every post in the thread and not a single person said that.

The closest thing was Hanzou saying that the idea of being able to defeat a skilled grappler in a fight just by relying on dirty moves banned in competition and without training with/against actual skilled grapplers was nonsense. That's a long, long way from "everything about traditional art."


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

check hanzo second message. and again this post was a question to TOSHINDO practitioners not BJJ practitioners. notice this martial art talks has a BJJ section so if i wanted a lecture on how only BJJ works i could got there. i have trained in sombo ,bjj ,judo shuai jiao. competed in judo and bjj. no i am no expert at those arts ,had the potential to be didnt want to focus that much time on an art that i feel is limited in real life to a one on one fight on the ground.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> no tony see the problem is as usuall no one here even knows anyhting about the style i asked .



I don't know anything about Toshindo except the public face of it. I've never had anything to do with Toshindo. I've met Stephen Hayes, more than 30 years ago-seemed like a nice guy. I know a little Bujinkan-though they were calling it, incorrectly, "togakure ryu ninpo," then. (If you're from New York, the name Kevin Harrington might mean something to you, but not to a lot of Bujinkan people, these days). 

From what I can see, Hayes' interpretation of Bujinkan, Toshindo, is flawed-I like what I think he's _trying_ to do, conceptually, but I don't think much of it, from what I've _seen_ as martial arts. High ranking Bujinkan people agree.

With all that said, though, you asked a specific question:

_I am an ex Bujinkan member, over a decade ago, still train but primarily in the Chinese arts. Just curious how do Toshindo members train against the treat of going up against a modern sport style grappler_

And, from me, you got a very specific answer, followed by the videotape I offered. It's no one's fault that no Toshindo practitioners have answered that question-the video is the best answer you're going to get, and, with "more than 30 years experience," *including sambo and other grappling arts*,you should be able to evaluate it for yourself.


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

I’m just going to ignore this guy above, he just likes to hear himself talk.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> No seriously though the question is to toshindo practitioners, but since you are not one there is no point in hearing what you got to say


Yeah, on your original question the best we can do is point you to the video clip elder posted. I've seen a few other moves in the past, but they were about the same level.

The rest of the thread seems to be mostly you arguing that BJJ is no good for self-defense. To reiterate, Hanzou did not make the claim (in this thread at least) that Bujinkan or Toshindo or traditional arts are nonsense or no good for self-defense. He claimed that saying you can beat a skilled grappler in a fight without understanding grappling yourself just by relying on biting or eye-gouging or whatever is nonsense. That's a very different statement, especially since
a) most self-defense has nothing to do with fighting a skilled grappler and
b) neither Bujinkan taijutsu nor the majority of traditional martial arts were designed for the purpose of fighting a skilled grappler.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> I’m just going to ignore this guy above, he just likes to hear himself talk.



Mom? 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Izzat you, Mom?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Why are you trolling us, Mom??


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> check hanzo second message.



I did. He doesn't say anything there about traditional arts being all nonsense. You're putting words in his mouth.



wiz cool c said:


> so if i wanted a lecture on how only BJJ works i could got there



Not a single person in this thread has suggested in any way, shape, or form that only BJJ works. We've got a number of posts from you stating that BJJ doesn't work for self-defense but nothing from anybody saying that BJJ is the only answer.



wiz cool c said:


> I’m just going to ignore this guy above, he just likes to hear himself talk.



Elder is generally worth paying attention to. He's one of a few people in this thread with a longer, deeper martial arts resume than your own. He's also the person who provided a video clip with a partial answer to your question.

Sorry we don't have any active Toshindo practitioners currently on the forum to answer your question in more depth. If that's all you want out of the thread, then it's probably best not to keep posting about how various other styles don't work, because you're likely to get posts from practitioners of those arts disagreeing.


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> . Any other questions?




Who is Chris Friedman? (that's a JEOPARDY! joke, Chris.....)
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	






Tony Dismukes said:


> Elder is generally worth paying attention to. He's one of a few people in this thread with a longer, deeper martial arts resume than your own. He's also the person who provided a video clip with a partial answer to your question.



Thanks for the vote of confidence Tony-it means a lot coming from you.


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## Buka (Nov 20, 2015)

I recently read a study that linked abrasive attitude with assault on street corners.
I mean, who knew?


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## elder999 (Nov 20, 2015)

Buka said:


> I recently read a study that linked abrasive attitude with assault on street corners.
> I mean, who knew?


New Research Say Sarcastic People Are Smarter, Sexier, And More Successful


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2015)

elder999 said:


> New Research Say Sarcastic People Are Smarter, Sexier, And More Successful



that's us two sorted then......


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## Steve (Nov 20, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Who is Chris Friedman? (that's a JEOPARDY! joke, Chris.....)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He's also a tremendous smart-alec.


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## Hanzou (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> no tony see the problem is as usuall no one here even knows anyhting about the style i asked about but instead right at the beging i got a ,i dont want to say again so i will copy and past[ at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense and it has been proven again and again in competition. so meaning everything other then sport grappling is useless. so then ]and then in comes the brigade,,so I want to make a point that sport grappling has its place but logic does too.
> 
> Not saying I don’t think bjj is usefull I have used an arm bar,neck crank and rea naked choke in real fights, trying to make a point here that there are many differences of self defense and on the mat.




Please note, I never said that traditional arts were nonsense. I said that your notion that competitive MAs are somehow lacking the proficiency of traditional MAs is nonsense.


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## drop bear (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> you are from new York wow so am I big deal. Yeah you can mix and match but the point here is at the beginning of this thread I was told everything about traditional art is nonsense and  it has been proven again and again in competition. so meaning everything other then sport grappling is useless. so then with that being said answer the question to prove a point, is bjj the first art of choice for teaching a newbie at 60 with back problems self defense? Or would you rather be taught how to use a cane as a weapon or go from cross body to mount then supine armbar, if you are injured and need to defend yourself in the previously mentioned scenario



OK. The guy you mention probably does not have much shot either way. And suggest he dosent get into street fights any time soon instead.

So I vote with train him in whatever. (Can we do a dog brothers stick method?)


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## drop bear (Nov 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> What a strange post. You really go way off on a tangent sometimes, in fact so far off it's incomprehensible.



Yeah. But you said the same thing about people using strange terms like arm drag and low single.


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But you said the same thing about people using strange terms like arm drag and low single.



Nope, I said I didn't know what they are. Haven't you got some research to do and an essay to write for Chris Parker?


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## wiz cool c (Nov 20, 2015)

o sorry guys didn’t hear you, any Toshindo guys here that can answer the original question?


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> o sorry guys didn’t hear you, any Toshindo guys here that can answer the original question?



Well if you hadn't ignored people's posts you'd know the answer wouldn't you because someone has posted up about that.


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## drop bear (Nov 21, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Nope, I said I didn't know what they are. Haven't you got some research to do and an essay to write for Chris Parker?



Speaking of threads people dont understand. I think that one is just going to get weird.


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## bigfootsquatch (Nov 21, 2015)

wiz cool c said:


> o sorry guys didn’t hear you, any Toshindo guys here that can answer the original question?



I don't think are any toshindo practitioners like people have said, but I can try to give you a Bujinkan answer as well as issues that may arise for the traditional and modern martial artist?


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Speaking of threads people dont understand. I think that one is just going to get weird.



I'm prepared...just back from ComicCon in Birmingham here, very good but saw Lee Majors and we just said Wow because we couldn't think of anything else to say other than oh he's still alive   well ish anyway!


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## elder999 (Nov 22, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'm prepared...just back from ComicCon in Birmingham here, very good but saw Lee Majors and we just said Wow because we couldn't think of anything else to say other than oh he's still alive   well ish anyway!



Loved the Six Million Dollar Man as a kidz, but much preferred Monte Markham from the pilot.....he brought just the right pathos and empathy to Caidin's  character.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2015)

Dina Meyer (Starship Troopers) was there too, very happy husband lol plus some of Dr Who earlier companions.


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## Steve (Nov 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Loved the Six Million Dollar Man as a kidz, but much preferred Monte Markham from the pilot.....he brought just the right pathos and empathy to Caidin's  character.


Never heard of Monte Markham, but I was a proud member of the Six Million Dollar Man Bionic Action Club in my youth and have the certificate to prove it.


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## elder999 (Nov 23, 2015)

Steve said:


> Never heard of Monte Markham, but I was a proud member of the Six Million Dollar Man Bionic Action Club in my youth and have the certificate to prove it.


He actually acted in one of the series episodes, as an upgraded (and kinda psycho) "*Seven* Million Dollar Man"


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> He actually acted in one of the series episodes, as an upgraded (and kinda psycho) "*Seven* Million Dollar Man"



Freaking inflation....


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## wiz cool c (Nov 25, 2015)

hey any toshindo people here that can answer the original question


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