# Long form 5



## Headhunter (Mar 4, 2017)

So today I've just begun to learn long form 5. I've got up to the technique hopping crane. It's an interesting it seems quite a complicated one with lots of different foot manouvers. It's been a very long time since I've learnt a new form but looking forward to learning more.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 11, 2017)

Any excuse to work Leap of Death and Back Breaker back to back, love those and you toss in Sleeper, Gotta love it! It really has some of our most brutal assassination techniques, I mean sure 6 has us beating someones brains in with their own gun but that concrete facial is just pure poetry.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 11, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> Any excuse to work Leap of Death and Back Breaker back to back, love those and you toss in Sleeper, Gotta love it! It really has some of our most brutal assassination techniques, I mean sure 6 has us beating someones brains in with their own gun but that concrete facial is just pure poetry.


Assassination techniques?  Seriously?  Please tell me you are joking.


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## Headhunter (Mar 11, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Assassination techniques?  Seriously?  Please tell me you are joking.


Yeah I've heard people call it that but no I don't agree on that. The official nickname for it is the takedown form because all the technique  end with you taking them to the floor and quite honestly none of the techniques minus leap of death really have the potential to kill anyone


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## KenpoDave (Mar 12, 2017)

I don't know. That throats stomp in Manchurian Takedown seems pretty lethal...


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

Lethal is not the same thing as a good assassination technique.

If you need to hit the guy a dozen times and break his spine in several locations and jump all over him after throwing him to the ground, then you suck as an assassin.  Hell, you suck as a fighter.


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## Headhunter (Mar 12, 2017)

KenpoDave said:


> I don't know. That throats stomp in Manchurian Takedown seems pretty lethal...


What on earth is manchurian takedown that's not a techique I've ever heard of


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## Headhunter (Mar 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Lethal is not the same thing as a good assassination technique.
> 
> If you need to hit the guy a dozen times and break his spine in several locations and jump all over him after throwing him to the ground, then you suck as an assassin.  Hell, you suck as a fighter.


You wouldn't do that in a real fight the point of the technique is to show different variations of ways to attack the spine. Obviously you're not going to use every one of those methods it's simply giving different ideas. That's what any competent kenpo instructor will  tell you. Any who tell you that the techniques will always work exactly as taught are liars. 

The techniques are no different to sparring drills in boxing or kickboxing they're different ways of defending a certain attack and while you could possibly use some of them it's more than likely you'll take bits of each one


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> You wouldn't do that in a real fight the point of the technique is to show different variations of ways to attack the spine. Obviously you're not going to use every one of those methods it's simply giving different ideas. That's what any competent kenpo instructor will  tell you. Any who tell you that the techniques will always work exactly as taught are liars.
> 
> The techniques are no different to sparring drills in boxing or kickboxing they're different ways of defending a certain attack and while you could possibly use some of them it's more than likely you'll take bits of each one


Oh I understand the idea behind them, I'm an ex-kenpo guy.  But Sami said these are good assassination techniques.  No, they are not.

Manchuran Takedown is the name of one of the techniques in Form 5, in the Tracy lineage.  I don't know what that technique is called in the other lineages.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> What on earth is manchurian takedown that's not a techique I've ever heard of



Tracy's names are different than the Parker names. It's the 3rd from last technique in the form.


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## Headhunter (Mar 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I understand the idea behind them, I'm an ex-kenpo guy.  But Sami said these are good assassination techniques.  No, they are not.
> 
> Manchuran Takedown is the name of one of the techniques in Form 5, in the Tracy lineage.  I don't know what that technique is called in the other lineages.



Okay just had a quick google and it's falling falcon and then 100% that's not a lethal techique that shows arm breaks while arm breaks suck they won't kill you


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## KenpoDave (Mar 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Lethal is not the same thing as a good assassination technique.
> 
> If you need to hit the guy a dozen times and break his spine in several locations and jump all over him after throwing him to the ground, then you suck as an assassin.  Hell, you suck as a fighter.



I'm referring to the statement that none of the techniques in the form save Leap of Death "even have the potential to kill anyone."

It is my opinion that stomping the throats does indeed have the potential to kill someone. Possible more so than the movements of Leap of Death.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Okay just had a quick google and it's falling falcon and then 100% that's not a lethal techique that shows arm breaks while arm breaks suck they won't kill you


Well the way it's done in the Tracy lineage includes stomping the throat, and that can kill you.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

KenpoDave said:


> I'm referring to the statement that none of the techniques in the form save Leap of Death "even have the potential to kill anyone."
> 
> It is my opinion that stomping the throats does indeed have the potential to kill someone. Possible more so than the movements of Leap of Death.


Oh I agree with that.

 My disagreement is the idea that these are somehow good "assassination" techniques.


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## KenpoDave (Mar 12, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I agree with that.
> 
> My disagreement is the idea that these are somehow good "assassination" techniques.



Agreed. "Assassination techniques" sounds more like marketing than kenpo.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 12, 2017)

KenpoDave said:


> Agreed. "Assassination techniques" sounds more like marketing than kenpo.


Yeah, an assassination technique needs to be quick and quiet and done.  None of this roaming the body causing physical trauma every place you can find.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 13, 2017)

You really got your panties in a knot over my "assassination techniques" joke. While the temptation to be a real sarcastic a-hole is calling to me right now I shall restrain myself as best I can. I am going to sugar-coat the heck out of my next few comments. 1. Most people don't have the experience to know what is and is not a good killing technique. 2. Even less people have the professional experience to identify what is and is not a good assassination technique. 3. You obviously feel your a qualified expert on assassination techniques so who am I to argue with your decades of experience, I certainly don't want my head mounted on your wall, Sir.

What makes me crack the assassination comment about Leap of Death, Back Breaker and Sleeper is that they all even Sleeper have you working the enemy from behind. Back Breaker has you getting behind them and breaking their balance to the rear, Sleeper has you putting them to sleep and place them on their backs and Leap of Death is having you work on weakening the muscles of the neck before snapping the neck of the enemy on their back. That is ignoring of course all of the other excellent lessons it introduces. If you were in the business of sneaking in behind someone to peace them out, your being introduced to some important tools but that said Mr. Parker's art is some assassin level shiznit but we live in a sensitive society so the art is not showcased in that manner unless your teaching Kenpo to the military.

Now Crane, my understanding about you is that you quit Kenpo so your absolutely correct in thinking that your leap of death and your back breaker and your sleeper would not work but perhaps something from the art you currently practice could be refined into something practical for that purpose. I am a little surprised to see you fall into the trap of the ignorant thinking that anything learned in the Martial Arts in scripted format is going to play out that way during the chaos of combat.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, an assassination technique needs to be quick and quiet and done.  None of this roaming the body causing physical trauma every place you can find.



Not true unless your talking about the movies, most assassinations are not quick, they are not quiet and they are by no means done at the end of execution. They are usually planned and organized which takes time, they are not quiet, they actually make a crap ton of noise but the timing is such that the act is carried out while other noise is masking the act, often it is done with a firearm and no silencer or an explosion both of which are very loud, in the movies you see a ninja-like actor climb above a bedroom and drill a hole and lower a thread to the sleeping victims mouth and trickle poison down the thread and escape undetected, that is the movie hype in reality someone walks into a crowded restaurant and empties a revolver into the victim who just ate a heavy meal, while maybe wearing a hoodie to hide their face. Get behind a guy, stick em 64 times, while he is screaming for help and now the hard part getting away with it. Anyway I would love to talk more about it as it was a part of my job for the last few years, though I am retiring and don't plan to work in that field any more. (preventing and investigating not doing it)


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## Flying Crane (Mar 13, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You really got your panties in a knot over my "assassination techniques" joke. While the temptation to be a real sarcastic a-hole is calling to me right now I shall restrain myself as best I can. I am going to sugar-coat the heck out of my next few comments. 1. Most people don't have the experience to know what is and is not a good killing technique. 2. Even less people have the professional experience to identify what is and is not a good assassination technique. 3. You obviously feel your a qualified expert on assassination techniques so who am I to argue with your decades of experience, I certainly don't want my head mounted on your wall, Sir.
> 
> What makes me crack the assassination comment about Leap of Death, Back Breaker and Sleeper is that they all even Sleeper have you working the enemy from behind. Back Breaker has you getting behind them and breaking their balance to the rear, Sleeper has you putting them to sleep and place them on their backs and Leap of Death is having you work on weakening the muscles of the neck before snapping the neck of the enemy on their back. That is ignoring of course all of the other excellent lessons it introduces. If you were in the business of sneaking in behind someone to peace them out, your being introduced to some important tools but that said Mr. Parker's art is some assassin level shiznit but we live in a sensitive society so the art is not showcased in that manner unless your teaching Kenpo to the military.
> 
> Now Crane, my understanding about you is that you quit Kenpo so your absolutely correct in thinking that your leap of death and your back breaker and your sleeper would not work but perhaps something from the art you currently practice could be refined into something practical for that purpose. I am a little surprised to see you fall into the trap of the ignorant thinking that anything learned in the Martial Arts in scripted format is going to play out that way during the chaos of combat.


Good luck with handling your demons.  I wish you the best.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 13, 2017)

I know it has been said ten thousand times but I will say it again, Kenpo techniques from the Ed Parker lines are like zip files a great deal of martial arts techniques are being compressed into a mini-kata, that the student explores and internalizes. Their are two sides to the scripted ideal phase techniques, one is the script that the practitioner follows the other is the script the training partner follows. The training partner has a specific attack to catalyze the technique and specific reactions to every move the practitioner executes. Their is zero expectation for what an enemy will do on the proverbial street, it could go down perfectly sure but its far more likely that it won't follow the script, your going to have to ad-lib your monologue and you may occasionally get interrupted by a punch to the face but your improvising with the changing circumstances and if you trained realistically in Kenpo, you will pull the art from your super-conscious state and survive and thrive, if you don't train realistically your better off quitting and going to find an instructor that will train you realistically.


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## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 13, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Good luck with handling your demons.  I wish you the best.



Well Thank You so much for the concern, I wish you all the best too and hope you got more out of what I shared with you than just my inner turmoil. lol


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## Headhunter (Mar 13, 2017)

Sami Ibrahim said:


> You really got your panties in a knot over my "assassination techniques" joke. While the temptation to be a real sarcastic a-hole is calling to me right now I shall restrain myself as best I can. I am going to sugar-coat the heck out of my next few comments. 1. Most people don't have the experience to know what is and is not a good killing technique. 2. Even less people have the professional experience to identify what is and is not a good assassination technique. 3. You obviously feel your a qualified expert on assassination techniques so who am I to argue with your decades of experience, I certainly don't want my head mounted on your wall, Sir.
> 
> What makes me crack the assassination comment about Leap of Death, Back Breaker and Sleeper is that they all even Sleeper have you working the enemy from behind. Back Breaker has you getting behind them and breaking their balance to the rear, Sleeper has you putting them to sleep and place them on their backs and Leap of Death is having you work on weakening the muscles of the neck before snapping the neck of the enemy on their back. That is ignoring of course all of the other excellent lessons it introduces. If you were in the business of sneaking in behind someone to peace them out, your being introduced to some important tools but that said Mr. Parker's art is some assassin level shiznit but we live in a sensitive society so the art is not showcased in that manner unless your teaching Kenpo to the military.
> 
> Now Crane, my understanding about you is that you quit Kenpo so your absolutely correct in thinking that your leap of death and your back breaker and your sleeper would not work but perhaps something from the art you currently practice could be refined into something practical for that purpose. I am a little surprised to see you fall into the trap of the ignorant thinking that anything learned in the Martial Arts in scripted format is going to play out that way during the chaos of combat.


My friend there's only 1 person getting their panties in a twist here and it certainly isn't me or anyone else who commented before hand, seeing as you've posted 3 essay sized replies on it


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## Sami Ibrahim (Mar 13, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> My friend there's only 1 person getting their panties in a twist here and it certainly isn't me or anyone else who commented before hand, seeing as you've posted 3 essay sized replies on it



You don't have to read it all at once lol


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