# Practising Strikes with Sai/Tekpi



## Rue (May 8, 2020)

Hi

I brought sai when I was a teenager and found them in my garage after years. I’ve started using them properly now (I just used to use them for generic fight scenes when I was younger and never went to a gym or anything).

I’ve taken up boxing which I enjoy greatly and was thinking about getting a punching bag but would like something that can take the hits from sai/tekpi. Does anyone know anything that would be versatile like that?

I’d be buying second hand anyway so any ideas regarding taping and strengthening would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2020)

I cannot imagine a heavy bag that would stand up to thrusting with the point or punching with the butt.  I think you will wreck the bag pretty quickly.  I can’t think of a way to reinforce the bag for that kind of thing that wouldn’t make it unusable for empty-hand work.  Like wrapping it in chain mesh or something.  

Striking it with the rod might last longer, but I think once you start hitting a bag with weapons the lifespan of the bag is reduced.


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2020)

If you have a back yard, you might sink a heavy wooden post into the ground in concrete, and then go to town on it.


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## yak sao (May 8, 2020)

Maybe an old tire?


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## isshinryuronin (May 8, 2020)

Rue said:


> Hi
> 
> I brought sai when I was a teenager and found them in my garage after years. I’ve started using them properly now (I just used to use them for generic fight scenes when I was younger and never went to a gym or anything).
> 
> ...



There is no need for such an item in regards to sai.  The purpose of a heavy bag or makiwara is to condition the hand and build strength.  Since the iron or steel sai is inherently hard, there is no need to strengthen it.  The weight of it, along with proper arm and hip motion, gives all the power needed, especially considering the small surface area of the weapon which greatly concentrates the force of impact.

You say you're using them "properly" now.  Just what does that mean to you?  Are you learning from youtube, a book, or, dare I ask, from an actual instructor?


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## Rue (May 8, 2020)

Thanks for the advice all. A tire or plank might be good, haven't got too much in the way of space but I'll see about moving things around.

Feel free to ask isshinryuronin: I went on a spiritual pilgrimage to the woods (I read books and watch videos). You might dare say an actual instructor, although their presence is distant into the future. Burnt some sage and everything.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 8, 2020)

Rue said:


> Thanks for the advice all. A tire or plank might be good, haven't got too much in the way of space but I'll see about moving things around.
> 
> Feel free to ask isshinryuronin: I went on a spiritual pilgrimage to the woods (I read books and watch videos). You might dare say an actual instructor, although their presence is distant into the future. Burnt some sage and everything.


So in the journey you saw that you'd have an instructor in the future? Was this a religious thing, or did you just hop in the nearby woods, take some books with you and spend a weekend training? No judging either way, just making sure I understand.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 9, 2020)

Stick a fencing post in the ground, and there you go.     rubber on the outside is optional, unless you have a old heavy bag you dont mind wreaking or something.  

The other thing i can think of is threading balls through a piece of cord and using it as a double end bag or 3 ball bag.  (saw that one in a FMA book for single/double stick though)

That is all i can come up with, could use a bag of oats stuffed or something if you want to go really historic.  Or just a genric bag stuffed with soemthing, snadbags seem to be pretty common for bayonet practice and the like if you suspend them somehow.


Damn there is a lack of comercially produced weapon targets arent there?


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## Flying Crane (May 9, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> There is no need for such an item in regards to sai.  The purpose of a heavy bag or makiwara is to condition the hand and build strength.  Since the iron or steel sai is inherently hard, there is no need to strengthen it.  The weight of it, along with proper arm and hip motion, gives all the power needed, especially considering the small surface area of the weapon which greatly concentrates the force of impact.
> 
> You say you're using them "properly" now.  Just what does that mean to you?  Are you learning from youtube, a book, or, dare I ask, from an actual instructor?


I will say there is historical precedence for training to strike with the weapon.  In The Middle Ages a post would be planted in the ground and used as a striking target with wooden practice swords, known as “wasters”.  Learning to handle the impact when the weapon strikes is worthwhile.  It’s not about conditioning the weapon.  It’s about conditioning the person holding the weapon.


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## isshinryuronin (May 10, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I will say there is historical precedence for training to strike with the weapon.  In The Middle Ages a post would be planted in the ground and used as a striking target with wooden practice swords, known as “wasters”.  Learning to handle the impact when the weapon strikes is worthwhile.  It’s not about conditioning the weapon.  It’s about conditioning the person holding the weapon.



You are comparing apples with oranges.  Swords in the Middle Ages were massive, heavy things, nothing like a sai.  They were used against similar heavy swords, thick heavy armor and heavy shields, none which apply with when considering the sai.

I agree with the part about conditioning the person.  As TMA weapon users normally have years of conditioning, I did not take into account that perhaps Rue did not have such experience.  I was going to say that using a "sai makiwara" wouldn't hurt, but then reconsidered.  If untrained, using such an aid could very well contribute to some bad habits such as concentrating too much on power generation, which can be counter-productive with a "technique" weapon such as a sai.

And I confess my bias towards those who take up weapons without the proper foundation.  But though I may not agree, I don't condemn their having their fun.


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## Flying Crane (May 10, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> You are comparing apples with oranges.  Swords in the Middle Ages were massive, heavy things, nothing like a sai.  They were used against similar heavy swords, thick heavy armor and heavy shields, none which apply with when considering the sai.
> 
> I agree with the part about conditioning the person.  As TMA weapon users normally have years of conditioning, I did not take into account that perhaps Rue did not have such experience.  I was going to say that using a "sai makiwara" wouldn't hurt, but then reconsidered.  If untrained, using such an aid could very well contribute to some bad habits such as concentrating too much on power generation, which can be counter-productive with a "technique" weapon such as a sai.
> 
> And I confess my bias towards those who take up weapons without the proper foundation.  But though I may not agree, I don't condemn their having their fun.


A sword from the Middle Ages was certainly different from a sai. But it was not heavy and massive.  When properly made they are well balanced and quite agile and often not nearly as massive as many assume.

Your point is taken, training methods from different traditions are certainly different.  I am of the opinion that in the modern age some amount of mixing of good ideas can be appropriate, assuming quality instruction is being received.  In my opinion, devising a method and a piece of equipment to practice actually striking with a weapon can be a good idea.  But that’s just my take on it.


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## Buka (May 10, 2020)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Rue. Hope you enjoy it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 12, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> You are comparing apples with oranges.  Swords in the Middle Ages were massive, heavy things, nothing like a sai.  They were used against similar heavy swords, thick heavy armor and heavy shields, none which apply with when considering the sai.
> 
> I agree with the part about conditioning the person.  As TMA weapon users normally have years of conditioning, I did not take into account that perhaps Rue did not have such experience.  I was going to say that using a "sai makiwara" wouldn't hurt, but then reconsidered.  If untrained, using such an aid could very well contribute to some bad habits such as concentrating too much on power generation, which can be counter-productive with a "technique" weapon such as a sai.
> 
> And I confess my bias towards those who take up weapons without the proper foundation.  But though I may not agree, I don't condemn their having their fun.



Too generalsied of a statement.  there are many designs of sword used during the middle ages.  It is around a thousand years of history and also cusps the introduction of early firearms. and then we also have many types of non sword weapon. 

And in all honesty if its a sai made correctly (not sharp but a blunt weapon) a heavy bag if you dont mind wreaking it or it wearing out quicker than usual probbly would suffice for a target with some resistance.   And if you in general live in europe looking at how they used to train weapons is generally better than say how the asians did, as sourcing some wood etc of suffient quality from Asia could be a more expensive and ardious task than local wood/techniques.    Or if the thing is only made in asia, like tatami mats are quite expensive if you have to keep buying them for cutting practice and they are pretty much only made in Japan(?).       And obiviously, the asians base it on what is found in asia, europeans europe.         Then we have the modern trends for target, like tyres and bottles.  bottles are really popular for obvious reasons, cheap and readily avalible.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 12, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Maybe an old tire?


Yeah, a hanging tire is overall one of the best tools for practicing delivering impact with blunt weapons (sticks, staffs, sais, tonfa, whatever).


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## Flying Crane (May 12, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, a hanging tire is overall one of the best tools for practicing delivering impact with blunt weapons (sticks, staffs, sais, tonfa, whatever).


I think a tire is a good idea although I suspect the springiness of the rubber tends to rebound the weapon in ways that are inconsistent with striking a human.  Of course I realize we cannot go around striking humans for the sake of our practice, and training methods are always just approximations.  

A post sunk into the ground would also be a good option and I think would have a different rebound when compared to a tire.  

Perhaps something to mitigate the rebound effect might be to wrap the tire or the post in some heavy burlap that can be replaced from time-to-time.

Either way, I wish I had room in my yard to install both of these items.


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