# universal pattern



## Rainman (Aug 8, 2002)

What does anyone use the universal pattern for?:idunno:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *What does anyone use the universal pattern for?:idunno: *



You're joking right?

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Robbo (Aug 8, 2002)

He must be trying to suck some newbies in.  

Rob


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 8, 2002)

Or maybe he is looking for some new ideas which is why we are all here.  It is a valid question.

There has been to much cynicism lately, everybody is thinking that everyone else is trying to lure people in for a cyber slamming.


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## Rainman (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
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I don't find any humor in statements such as AK has big holes in it.   If it has big holes then someone isn't using the optimum angles for entry and departure.  Where do you think you may find these answers?   I'll give you a hint *THE UNIVERSAL PATTERN*    It's even in the II for quik reference.:shrug:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 8, 2002)

OOps wrong post


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
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It's TATTOOED on my left forearm  (with a YIN/YANG), I just thought you were joking.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Klondike93 (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
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I have a question about it, how do you use it? Can it be used like a map, or is it just to give you an insight into the many angles available?


:asian:


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## Rainman (Aug 8, 2002)

There is a difference in optimum and available.   And that my friend was the million dollar inquiry.   Two thumbs up!


:asian:


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## Eraser (Aug 8, 2002)

Rainman...


Is the Universal Pattern...... simialar to the Octogon Pattern,(or Natural Law Theroy) that uses angles and body positions??? (Its a huge thing in Kosho Ryu, and we have incorporated it into our school)

Just curious that's all!!


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## Rainman (Aug 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eraser _
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> *Rainman...
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Idea wise yes.   The octagon already exits within the UP.  The Universal Pattern is larger in scope, detail, and function.    It contains all movement from all directions in any positon or posture.


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 8, 2002)

Does anyone have a nice copy of the universal pattern that could be put in this thread for those not familar with it.


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## Eraser (Aug 8, 2002)

Rainman,

Thanks..........  I just goes to show ya... that all MA is linked to each other.. even if its in the smallest amout..  I find that so COOL!!!


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 8, 2002)

Here is the Universal Pattern for those that do not know what it is.


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## brianhunter (Aug 8, 2002)

i think of it alot while doing forms...you can lay your foot movements over it and it keeps you thinking.  Clyde has a pretty cool way of laying it out with the yin and the yang where the black represents the "dark" and the light is to the forward it really represents how we fight and reference light and dark and directional movement. Thats what I have used it for but my experience is limited.


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## Rainman (Aug 8, 2002)

See if this works out okay.   This is what it really looks like and how it functions dimensionally.   The flat version rob gave is what you are standing on.   Should be black with white lines... it  may also be black with white lines.


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## satans.barber (Aug 9, 2002)

We don't get taught this, so the people who have shocked disbelief should note that it doesn't necessarily come as standard in kempo!

This is a forum for all types of kempo remember, not just EPAK, so it's hardly surprising that some people don't know what it's for....me included!

Ian.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 9, 2002)

It is neat to use for a design, or image to show off and have pictures, and posters of.  Most people ask what the heck it is!


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## Robbo (Aug 9, 2002)

> I don't find any humor in statements such as AK has big holes in it. If it has big holes then someone isn't using the optimum angles for entry and departure. Where do you think you may find these answers? I'll give you a hint THE UNIVERSAL PATTERN  It's even in the II for quik reference.



A person's perception of the system is colored by what they see when they watch people practise it. If someone saw me practising Kenpo then they would be correct in assuming MY Kenpo is very weak as far as groundfighting is concerned. Does it mean the system is at fault...maybe since it doesn't specifically teach groundfighting techniques. Do I wish my grappling skills were better...sure but untill I get off my butt and investigate the groundfighting applications then I'm going to stay where I am. 

Look a BJJ, sure they specialize in ground fighting but they don't have the base to adapt that ground fighting to a stand up fight. They may teach this adaption but they certainly do not advertise that they are a stand up fighting system. We're given the tools for a stand up fight first and when you start to apply the 3 learning phases shouldn't being on the ground be part of the what if phase?

As for the universal pattern, it is another tool to get people thinking about movement. You can use it for teaching for example, to explain the clock system .Use it as such and don't try to read too much into it. All movement should be found within it and by studying it you may find new patterns of movement that you did not know existed. It also contains the plus sign and the multiplication signs. Kenpo equivalents being extensions for the plus sign and compound and inserts for the multiplication sign.

I mean you can go into the outside circle representing the circle of life and all that but come on let's keep it practical.

Rob


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## KenpoTess (Aug 9, 2002)

In our Studio we have a rendition of the Universal Pattern created with masking tape in the center of the floor.  Students can use it to their advantage by practicing their stances and footwork.  From the basic 8 to 16 to the 32 steps possible, then utilizing the inner workings of the web the realization of the possibilities comes to pass. 
It's a fine tool to impress upon students.  And having it on the floor (thanks Bill )  Gives it a much more practical application than just a poster on the wall 

Tess


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 9, 2002)

Is the universal pattern flat? is it genuinely universal? does all of it have to be on the floor at once?

First time I talked to Clyde, about--yikes--nine years ago, he showed me his then-new tattoo. Being a teacher, a bit of a snoot, and alarmed by him, I said, "Gee. I didn't know you were allowed to write the answers on your arm."

Amazing I'm still alive, when I think about it.


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## jeffkyle (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
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> *Is the universal pattern flat? is it genuinely universal? does all of it have to be on the floor at once?
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It would be cool to have an entire room that is just one big universal pattern.


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## Rainman (Aug 9, 2002)

> As for the universal pattern, it is another tool to get people thinking about movement. You can use it for teaching for example, to explain the clock system .Use it as such and don't try to read too much into it. All movement should be found within it and by studying it you may find new patterns of movement that you did not know existed. It also contains the plus sign and the multiplication signs. Kenpo equivalents being extensions for the plus sign and compound and inserts for the multiplication sign.



If you are going to lablel the UP it is a master key concept, Which basically means many things fall under its domain.   You must have a teacher that knows how to use it or be so driven you begin to figure out what you can do with it.   AK is full of abstract thought, that is the whole thing that makes it a living and breathing conceptual vehicle after a period of time in the art.   

Don't be so quik to form opinions, that is what stunts your growth and corrupts an ability to move out of concrete operations.    Concrete operations are something like this:  Delayed sword, block-kick-chop, that is what I see that is all there is because that is what I see.     There is more trust me, Ive paid a heavy price to come to that understanding... I believe I have also shared some insights for folks to look at and grow from.


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## Robbo (Aug 9, 2002)

> Don't be so quik to form opinions, that is what stunts your growth and corrupts an ability to move out of concrete operations.



What I posted about the UP is what I know at this point. There is probably a lot more to it which I don't know. But your original question was how do people use the UP....I posted a reply. 

Could YOU give the board furthur insights on how you use the UP...please.

Rob


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## Rainman (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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Okay here is one I don't think I put forth very well.   Put the 3d image on top of the flat image so they sit like a cup and saucer-  stand in the center of both in a natural stance spine in the direct center of both.   Extend your hand and extend your feet- look around see what you find out about range which leads to...


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 9, 2002)

> I don't find any humor in statements such as AK has big holes in it. If it has big holes then someone isn't using the optimum angles for entry and departure. Where do you think you may find these answers? I'll give you a hint THE UNIVERSAL PATTERN  It's even in the II for quik reference.



I'm not sure that anyone expected you to find humor in such statements.  I know I didn't, that's why I've been trying to learn as much as I can about groundfighting.  The conclusion that "I" came to, was that EPAK doesn't offer much of anything in the way of groundfighting.  Does that mean Ed Parker knew nothing about it, NO.  That just means that he didn't put it into his system.

So far you've offered up the 3-d universal symbol as your answer to the gaps.  That's not an answer, it's a cute little representation of the "Infinite Motion" of american kenpo.  I tell you what, you train with the universal symbol for sixth months and I'm gonna go train with a knowledgeable BJJ instructor for sixth months and we'll see who fills the gap faster.  While I agree that the universal pattern, in it's three dimensional representation, supplies an infinite number of motion patterns, I have to wonder how effective your response would be without any real ground experience.  How would you pick your patterns of motion.  Remember that while all things may be possible, not all things are beneficial; and in a fight you have very little time to distinguish between the two.



> Don't be so quik to form opinions, that is what stunts your growth and corrupts an ability to move out of concrete operations.



I agree that you shouldn't be quick to form opinions, which is why I posted the Groundfighting question to begin with.  I don't purport to know everything about kenpo, but I know what I know and that's all I can base things from.  However, when the only people who are posting are either  1) non-experienced groundfighters  2) people who learned groundfighting somewhere else 3) or people who belong to a system that teach their own unique techniques (i.e. not EPAK), then you kind of have to assume that no one really knows the AK correlation.



> There is more trust me, Ive paid a heavy price to come to that understanding... I believe I have also shared some insights for folks to look at and grow from.



Well, that's fine if there is more to this topic please share.  As for you sharing insights for folks to look at and grow from, that is for them to decide.


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## Rainman (Aug 9, 2002)

I am open to questions but not rants.   Your mind is closed there is nothing I can do for you.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
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Holographic displays are not that far away Jeff.    In a few short years we might be able to put that very image up and move around in it for our size.


Have a great kenpo day

Clyde


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## satans.barber (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
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Yeah, and little tin robots will vaccuum up for us too, it's gonna be great....



Ian.


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## Eraser (Aug 10, 2002)

Does this mean.. i'll finally get my light sabre??????


rofl


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> What does anyone use the universal pattern for?
> *



Anything they want........ multi-useful....

D - M - P - D - A

Much of what you can do standing up, you can do lying down or from a different prospective, it does take adjustments at times.

:asian:


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## Rainman (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
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The great voice of reason (and information) from the Southwest.  Direction-method-9p-dimensionalzones-and compound levers. 


:asian:


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## Robbo (Aug 10, 2002)

I know that you should be able to adapt your techniques to the situation whether standing up or down. So why did Mr. Parker choose standing up face to face to illustrate the concepts (SD techniques), was it simpler to illustrate his concepts? Would it not have been better if he put a couple in that defended from the ground, mounted position, etc? I know in our system there is only 1 technique where you get pushed to the ground and have to defend from there. Granted at 1st deg you do learn groundwork SD, but as far as the 'official' SD tech up to Black there is only 1. And although I don't know all the techniques in EPAK there also seems to be a lack of conceptual SD that are done from the ground in the ideal phase. It sounds like you have to be in the exploring frame of mind with these techniques and as everybody knows this can take years to develop while you internalize the concepts and ideas found in the 'standard' SD techs.

Is this a weakness, wait wrong term, oppourtunity for improvement in the system? Why do we have to wait for the what if phase to explore these options?

Thanks,
Rob


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _*
> So why did Mr. Parker choose standing up face to face to illustrate the concepts (SD techniques), was it simpler to illustrate his concepts?
> *



I believe that during the early times the most common attacks dictated the curriculum that we use, as time went on, he realized the need for a greater stress on groundwork.   He knew the answers was built into the principles but had not clearly inserted specific "techniques" in the curriculum yet, prior to his passing.



> *
> Would it not have been better if he put a couple in that defended from the ground, mounted position, etc? I know in our system there is only 1 technique where you get pushed to the ground and have to defend from there. Granted at 1st deg you do learn groundwork SD, but as far as the 'official' SD tech up to Black there is only 1.
> *



Yes it would, and he was working on Kenpo Grappling but as fate would have it, unfortunately for us, time ran out...... Mr. Parker often said, "it would take several lifetimes to learn/understand all there is to Kenpo", so it is left up to us to continue.

:asian:


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## brianhunter (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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> *ISo why did Mr. Parker choose standing up face to face to illustrate the concepts (SD techniques), was it simpler to illustrate his concepts?
> Rob *



At the yellow belt level there are a few techniques where you are not face to face....sword and hammer, captured twigs. it goes from there...Obscure claws, obscure sword, cross of destruction, fallen cross, there are several that you dont start face to face, 

Did you mean maybe not illustrating any starting point from from the ground? There are plenty of techniques where you arent "face to face"

Some ground fighting techniques incorporating kenpo principles would be very awsome in our system


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## Robbo (Aug 10, 2002)

> Did you mean maybe not illustrating any starting point from from the ground?



That is what I meant as opposed to a standing position. I am aware that there are lots of techs that deal with rear attacks, side attacks, chokes, etc. I guess you caught me on that one.  



> Some ground fighting techniques incorporating kenpo principles would be very awsome in our system



Did you mean you DO have them or you are saying that if they were developed by Mr. Parker then they would be really cool.



> Mr. Parker often said, "it would take several lifetimes to learn/understand all there is to Kenpo", so it is left up to us to continue.



But can you add that material and still claim to teach EPAK? With all the critics running around I'm sure someone would say something and after listening to that crap long enough would you make the EPAK that you teach with the groundwork a offshoot of EPAK and call it something else. It seems you can't add anything significant to EPAK without changing it and if you change it significantly how do you propagate it so that all the other EPAK schools can take advantage of your contribution?...if they choose to.

Or...do you have enough on your hands just trying to keep everybody talking to each other.

Thanks,
Rob


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## RCastillo (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eraser _
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> *Does this mean.. i'll finally get my light sabre??????
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Yes, but first, I'm still waiting for my Universal pattern T shirt! So, where is it?:soapbox:


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
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> Yes, but first, I'm still waiting for my Universal pattern T shirt! So, where is it?:soapbox: *


E-Bay


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 11, 2002)

If kenpo is to be constantly evolving, why would, adding something to the program signifcantly change things?


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _*
> But can you add that material and still claim to teach EPAK?
> *



IMHO..... Sure you can.  If you take what he gave us and adhere to the principles...... what would you call it? ........  Whether it is "arranged" by you, me or someone else, .... as long as it remains within the boundaries of principles outlined.... it's EPAK no matter who rearranged it.



> *
> With all the critics running around I'm sure someone would say something and after listening to that crap long enough would you make the EPAK that you teach with the groundwork a offshoot of EPAK and call it something else.
> *



Well the critics were always there and always will be ... so I just ignore their comments.



> *
> It seems you can't add anything significant to EPAK without changing it and if you change it significantly how do you propagate it so that all the other EPAK schools can take advantage of your contribution?...if they choose to.
> *



Kenpo is all about different perspectives...... Mr. Parker understood that there was more than "one way" to arrive at a solution to any given salutation, thus his option concepts, such as the equation formula and other Kenpo Tools.   Logic and reality are fundamental, so you can change from the base of the curriculum... (all the good advanced Black Belts already know this) so change is not an issue to most in my opinion.

How to propagate to others, well that is a whole nuther issue... LOL.   Those that want to share will, those that don't won't, those that wish others to share that don't are dreamers.  

Hint.......... Seek those that will share, and forget the rest.

:asian:


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## Robbo (Aug 11, 2002)

> If kenpo is to be constantly evolving, why would, adding something to the program signifcantly change things?



Because nobody views evolution in the same manner. Some people would welcome a groundfighting curriculum to EPAK. Others would say no we are a striking art primarily and we want to concentrate on what Mr. Parker left us.

The other HUGE thing is, if you add, how do you share? If I or you came up with a ground fighting curriculum to match the standard SD techs how would you propagate it throughout the Kenpo brotherhood? Would you want to? Or would you just do your own thing and eventually be so far from the EPAK curriculum that the majority would see you as a offshoot and label you as such.

Or...are we all offshoots of EPAK now that Mr. Parker is gone and the art has continued to evolve. How can anybody claim to teach EPAK anymore? 

All this philisophical thought is probably just a result of not training for a while. When you have to deal with a full speed, full power technique line it tends to ground you and make you think of more immediate matters.  

Just some thoughts,
Rob

P.S. Thanks to GD7 for his replys, this post was written after fully reading yours. I did not post this again becuase I didn't understand what you said, I'm just trying to Get Mr. Broad's input on the thread.


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## Rainman (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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Ya know if you actually stopped beating your head against the wall long enough you might realize the gateway to the other side is just to the right.   Don't forget to stop and ask for the best guide they have at the guard shack.


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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I think that says it all.  We all have our own little flavor, that is the Way SGM Parker wanted it.  Each person has their own ideas of what is important for the system.  That is all fine as long as the follow the principles of EPAK then so be it.  

I believe in the full sharing of knowledge.  So if a person has something good to be offered to the curriculum then please share.  I believe we can all learn from eachother.

I also believe there are many, many lesons in the Universal Pattern than become user specific as you progress through the system.


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## Robbo (Aug 12, 2002)

> Ya know if you actually stopped beating your head against the wall long enough you might realize the gateway to the other side is just to the right. Don't forget to stop and ask for the best guide they have at the guard shack.



This really doesn't help me out too much rainman. Maybe you could delve a little deeper.

Rob


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## Rainman (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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Did you follow through with the exercise I gave to you?  That is how I started years ago with the U-P.  If you are serious get off your butt and do your homework and I will be glad to supply    points to further investigate from the feedback you supply to me.


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## AvPKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

In our curriculum we are just now adding ground fighting.  In fact we are having a tournament at our school end of this month.  (Its not a big shindig, just a small tourney for fun.)  We are inviting all local schools, and non local, for those that are close enough to want to participate.  I will also have one of my co-workers tape the event.

Michael


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## Nightingale (Aug 13, 2002)

my instructor doesn't really use the universal pattern.  It isn't visible anywhere in the studio and he never talks about it.  I think about it sometime, and have used parts of it laid out in masking tape on the floor to check my stances (I wasn't even thinking about the pattern when I laid out the tape, but then discovered it was the vertical, horizontal, and diagonal lines in the pattern) When someone posted this question, I was going "oh. good. I wanted to ask this, but I didn't want to look stupid because everyone else seems to know the answer to this."


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## Robbo (Aug 13, 2002)

> Okay here is one I don't think I put forth very well. Put the 3d image on top of the flat image so they sit like a cup and saucer- stand in the center of both in a natural stance spine in the direct center of both. Extend your hand and extend your feet- look around see what you find out about range which leads to...



Beside the obvious patterns and limits of motion that various parts of your body can follow I don't see what you are getting at.

Rob


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## jeffkyle (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
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How about get one that revolves around for us.  That and a disco ball and we can have "Universal Pattern Disco training".


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## Rainman (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Robbo _
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Range-  the 3rd range to the fourth range.  Each person is incased in the sphere whether they know how to use it or not.   Once specific details of the U-P are learned it provides the (theory first) of ideal angles in which to strike, redirect and deflect simultaneously, or in part... depends on what and how a person is A) attacked  B) responds with the optimum line for zone cancellation with their responce.  

Motion is a constituent of inertia not so much the up.  Movement (because it is more particular) would be a more accurate or precise descriptive term.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 13, 2002)

> Motion is a constituent of inertia not so much the up.



Inertia is a value given to an object, whether it's in motion or not.  It's a term used to describe "THE" motion of an object, and it's inclination to maintain it's state of being in a relative coordinate system.  This being the case, I don't quite see how motion is a "constituent of inertia."  Maybe it's all just semantics, but I didn't go through years of physics courses to listen to others garble through theory.



> Movement (because it is more particular) would be a more accurate or precise descriptive term.



More precise at describing what?  Maybe you could enlighten us, as to the "BIG" theory your trying to explain.  The U.P. is good at describing the infinite amount of motion, but human physiology (with its finite limit) determines the amount of power, speed, structure, and economy we can get within a specific movement.


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## Rainman (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
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> 
> More precise at describing what?  Maybe you could enlighten us, as to the "BIG" theory your trying to explain.  The U.P. is good at describing the infinite amount of motion, but human physiology (with its finite limit) determines the amount of power, speed, structure, and economy we can get within a specific movement. *


 
motion- an act process or instance of changing place
movement- change of place, position or posture



> Inertia is a value given to an object, whether it's in motion or not. It's a term used to describe "THE" motion of an object, and it's inclination to maintain it's state of being in a relative coordinate system. This being the case, I don't quite see how motion is a "constituent of inertia." Maybe it's all just semantics, but I didn't go through years of physics courses to
> listen to others garble through theory.



Intertia is a simple universal law- once in motion stay in motion until acted upon by an outside force.   Once at rest stay at rest until acted upon by an outside force.   You are not old enough to have gone through years of anything- when does the fall semester start "johnny"


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 14, 2002)

First off I've been around long enough to know that your not describing the physics correctly.  


> Motion is a constituent of inertia



This doesn't make sense.  Inertia is an intrinsic quality of mass.

Second, what have I said that's incorrect?  You come on to a forum trying to be vague as if you have some special secret about kenpo that people should grovle to you for.  If your interested in the free exchange of ideas then why don't you be a little more specific.  Rambling on about things you don't understand and then telling people their lazy and need to get off their butts if they want your help; I mean really, who do you think you are?  You may sound intelligent to people who don't know any better, but it sounds to me like you picked up one of Feynman's books on physics, read about half of it and then decided to jump on the forum.  I've been around enough to know that people try to make things sound more secretive, and scientific than they really need to be.  How hard is it to say that if I hit you here and do it like this, then it will hurt more than if I did it some other way or in some other place.  So far you haven't talked about anything relating to the universal pattern that most orange belts haven't figured out by simply working on their sparring (i.e. ranges).  I know that the universal pattern can be extremely useful in describing different patterns of motion, but so far you've done nothing but ramble esoterically about ranges, inertia, and the like.  Maybe you would care to enlighten us all with your stunning insight.  I'm willing to bet that there is alot of good information in the UP, I just don't think you have it, but you could try and prove me wrong.

Frankly I could care less what you think about me, I'm not your buddy, nor would I care to be.  Someone mentions something about groundfighting and you have to get all huffy.  I can't think of one post where I haven't asked a question that I was honestly interested in hearing the answer to, it's called learning.  You on the other hand appear to have started this thread for some type of ego gratification.  You tout your knowledge and then remain purposely vague in replies.  How about this, I have the secret to life, it can be found in the infinite possible strands of DNA, why don't you go study that for a while and when you show enough effort I will grace you with my knowledge.  Give me a break.


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## Seig (Aug 14, 2002)

love it when things stay so friendly?   Come on guys, there is no reason for this.:asian:


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## Rainman (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *First off I've been around long enough to know that your not describing the physics correctly.
> 
> ...




I have never seen anyone act so ignorant and then brag about it publicly.   Most guys are probably laughing at your inability to learn and remain open.   You have been saying for months AK has no groundfighting.   Okay believe what you want.   For you it doesn't.   The UP is nothing more than "patterns of motion" whatever that is.    With statements like "I know what I know"  you  fail to understand that you tell everyone else what you don't have.   

"How hard is it to say if I hit you here and do it like this-  this will hurt."    Makes sense to me.  Where is here?  Nevermind.  If you already knew how to do that correctly it would have been done.  

Here was the telltale sign- that ridiculous graft to mace of aggression.  How about sword of destruction for a graft.   So much for you understanding the fourth range.   But oh I thought orange belts understood that... and got it from sparring.    So then I take it you are a yellow belt since you don't know your own prescribed orange material.  



> love it when things stay so friendly? Come on guys, there is no reason for this.


Thanx for your concern Seig-  However this person I do not like.
 I was going to add to the applied kenpo thread with the up material but I think I have been pretty well talked out of it.

:asian:


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## Kirk (Aug 14, 2002)

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Kirk
-MT Moderator-


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## RCastillo (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.
> 
> ...



Oh yeah, with Homer Simpsons pic there, and you want us to believe that?:rofl: 

You'd be better off with Mr. Burns at the helm.:rofl:


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## Mace (Aug 14, 2002)

> Here was the telltale sign- that ridiculous graft to mace of aggression. How about sword of destruction for a graft. So much for you understanding the fourth range. But oh I thought orange belts understood that


Rainmain,
 Could you please clarify this statement for me, I'm a little confused. When I teach my yellow belts the tech mace of aggresion and  they hit the outward elbow to the sternum, their partner/opponent usually backs up a step or two. So how would we still be in the 4th range? The graft into sword of destruction reminds me somewhat of the motion found with the extention to bow of compulsion, a little rearranged of course if you do the kick as written in SD. Am I misunderstanding the application of Mace of Agression, the range of the opponent after the outward elbow, or your take on the graft?
Respectfully,
Mace


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## Robbo (Aug 14, 2002)

> I was going to add to the applied kenpo thread with the up material but I think I have been pretty well talked out of it.



1) There's more than one person on this board.

2) Heated discussions show passion for the art. If you can't show passion then you probably don't love what you do. Seems like you guys both have a view and are passionate about it. Maybe the views could be explained better but it's not good if one person's views prevent you from posting just because you got into a argument over what term to use.

Rob


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 14, 2002)

> Quoted by Rainman
> Here was the telltale sign- that ridiculous graft to mace of aggression. How about sword of destruction for a graft. So much for you understanding the fourth range. But oh I thought orange belts understood that... and got it from sparring. So then I take it you are a yellow belt since you don't know your own prescribed orange material.





> I'm a little confused. When I teach my yellow belts the tech mace of aggresion and they hit the outward elbow to the sternum, their partner/opponent usually backs up a step or two. So how would we still be in the 4th range?



If you let go of the attackers arm I don't think you would, but I'm just a yellow belt     :shrug:

Well you got me.  I actually did write Sword of destruction, meaning Sword and Hammer.  All you have to do to set up sword and hammer is to release your opponent with your left hand.  The outward elbow would move your opponent back creating the required "RANGE" for you to graft sword and hammer.  Geez I wrote something down wrong.  However, I did ask for opinions on my post (i.e. I wanted feedback), but if you figured that there was something wrong why didn't you mention it then?   Also while it may not be the most economical use of motion, you could actually do this to Graft SWORD OF DESTRUCTION:

1) Do the outward elbow found in mace of aggression.  
2) Execute a  right backknuckle to the side of his face followed by a left inward palm heel (if need be, move the back leg up before the left palm heel... this will help you set up for the kick), 
3) kick the groin or inner thigh of his right leg to start spinning him back the other way, and finish with the right inward chop to the neck.  
#3 is the Sword of Destruction part, in case you were wondering.

Although it requires a little more thought and a little more setup, I think it could be done.  What do you think, Honestly ( I really am looking for feedback).  Eventhough this wasn't what I meant to do originally, I think you could still possibly execute it.  I, personally, would probably stick to Sword and Hammer because it requires the least amount of setup to cause the most amount of damage.  

Rainman, thank you for bringing that to my attention.  Sorry about the slip-up on the technique name.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 14, 2002)

> Quoted by Rainman
> Most guys are probably laughing at your inability to learn and remain open.



I have never tried to make it sound like I know it all.  Unfortunately in a faceless, voiceless, media like this forum it's hard to distinguish what is meant by some statements.  Sometimes genuine questions can be mistaken for challenges.  I have to say that I've actually learned quite a bit just from reading the posts.  I find that a forum, like this one, that attracts people from across the globe offers a broad perspective.  There is no way that I could sit at home and try to think of every possible variation of every possible movement.  It's an asset to be able to communicate with knowledgeable people like Mr. C. Mr. O'bryant (sp?),  Mr. Farmer, Mr. Chapel,  and so many others that spend time here.  That is why I came to this forum to ask my groundfighting question.  With such a repository of knowledge, I figured that I could get some type of answer here.  I appreciate your concern about my state of learning, however, I assure you that I am always willing to be taught.  That's why I ask questions.


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## Rainman (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mace _
> 
> *
> Rainmain,
> ...



Sure Mace- the difference is not to release  the trap/pin.  Not so much for yellow belts as their grafting comes from other places at this point in their training for us.   The way I look at range is once in the fourth range finish the attacker off and keep them dimensionally checked until extraction.   Think about grafting into leap of death or at least using the arm bar/break  takedown once in that far- if you choose not to release them and push/strike them away with an outward elbow.    Depending on the force of the blow and plane ,which is generally on a #1,  it is viable to end the technique there and get away from the situation using the release ideas...  depending on where the strikes are place the attacker may not be done.  

Creating distance (going back to contact penetration) and then trying to close it again could be dangerous and not economical for the advanced student.   For me grafts are designed with the finish in mind.

:asian:


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## Mace (Aug 14, 2002)

Rainman,
 That does make sense but guess that I should clarify that I do not keep the arms after the initial pin. I don't like one handed techs. I'll insert an eyeslice on the way to the elbow (sandwich) and hit the outward immediately after. I will usually follow up with sword and hammer at this point, my arm is already in motion with the outward elbow so I let the hand fly with the chop.  Course I could just use a crossing side kick.  
Hope that helps explain where I was coming from,
Mace


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## Rainman (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mace _
> 
> *Rainman,
> That does make sense but guess that I should clarify that I do not keep the arms after the initial pin. I don't like one handed techs. I'll insert an eyeslice on the way to the elbow (sandwich) and hit the outward immediately after. I will usually follow up with sword and hammer at this point, my arm is already in motion with the outward elbow so I let the hand fly with the chop.  Course I could just use a crossing side kick.
> ...



It is not one handed.  The left is controlling as in contact manipulation checking height width and depth.    So it is actively doing something just not so visable.   No need to clarify I know what you are doing- I don't disagree but why go back to contact penetration once inside the fourth range?   If you are going to sandwhich why not use that movement to turn him around and go into back breaker?  The sandwhich can be taken from fatal cross and inserted between moa and backbreaker.   What zones are you checking/controlling to insure his placement and postions are setups for the next sequence?


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## Mace (Aug 15, 2002)

Hey Rainman,
 I think that we are both on the same page here, we just have different ways of doing it which is the beauty of our art. I initially check height, width and depth with the hammer to the forearms (after the nose, of course) in conjunction with the pin being a strike. Its just using overlaping circles. Using Marriage of gravity, anchoring, alignment and so forth (and running it at a good speed), all of my partners have buckled to chest level, setting up the head for the slice and elbow sandwich. I really don't believe there would even be an outward elbow but it is there. At one time I did perform the tech the way you are describing, its just changed over the years with some good guidance.
Respectfully,
Mace


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## Rainman (Aug 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Mace _
> 
> *Hey Rainman,
> I think that we are both on the same page here, we just have different ways of doing it which is the beauty of our art. I initially check height, width and depth with the hammer to the forearms (after the nose, of course) in conjunction with the pin being a strike. Its just using overlaping circles. Using Marriage of gravity, anchoring, alignment and so forth (and running it at a good speed), all of my partners have buckled to chest level, setting up the head for the slice and elbow sandwich. I really don't believe there would even be an outward elbow but it is there. At one time I did perform the tech the way you are describing, its just changed over the years with some good guidance.
> ...



Hey Mace,

Nice to get some feedback.  The first zone cancellation is simultaneous with the first 3 actions.   Pin, step, strike.  Checks them all by moving the head back off its natural position.   When releasing do you have to shuffle in for the outward elbow strike?  That is how I teach it but maintain the pin to extend and continue in the fourth range.   I am interested to know why you opt to move back to range 3 when extending MOG out.   I know that during freefighting if I fail to execute in the 4th range with my teacher it ends pretty badly.   Do you teach yellow belts that particular graft?

:asian:


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## Mace (Aug 16, 2002)

Hey Rainman,
 I'm not exactly sure which graft you mean for my yellows, but I can still answer.   I will teach my yellows to add sword and hammer onto this tech, nothing else. I drill them on the deflecting hammer pattern for speed and power and that's the main focus. 
 I don't really have to release the arms anywhere in the tech, I'm not pinning the hands to my chest as "written". My pin is a strike and my hammerstrike to the forearm nerves drops their height setting up the inward/outward elbow. I hit the 2 elbows quick enough that the head is traveling back after the first and sets the sternum or solar plexis (I have some tall students) for the outward. I keep the momentum moving forward. If I need to, I will shuffle, but I haven't needed to in a while. My students testing for yellow do have to shuffle, the motion is still new to them, but by their orange belt test their execution is fast and strong enough that the majority no longer need to shuffle. That's just the way me and my guys do it.
Respectfully, (and thanks for the conversation)
Mace


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## Les (Aug 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Sort of like a Star Trek holodeck? That would be cool.

Les


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## Kenpo Wolf (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



And then we can put some hologram training partners in the program too. That would be awesome


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## Les (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> *
> 
> And then we can put some hologram training partners in the program too. That would be awesome *



I had thought of that, and made a short list.


Mr Parker, Paul Mills, Dennis Conatser, Gary Ellis, a few others, and of course, Gou Ronin. (They'll need someone to dummy for them) 

Les


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## jeffkyle (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> *
> 
> And then we can put some hologram training partners in the program too. That would be awesome *




And you could totally try out your kenpo for "real"!!  That would be cool to be able to totally beat the crap out of someone, and they just get right back up and wait for you to do it again, without medical help!


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## Kirk (Sep 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Yes, but first, I'm still waiting for my Universal pattern T shirt! So, where is it?:soapbox: *



Can I interest you in one of these?  

http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=kenponovelties


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _*
> 
> Can I interest you in one of these?
> 
> http://www.cafeshops.com/cp/store.aspx?s=kenponovelties *



Who stole my copyright saying?
If you know let me know.

 
:asian:


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## Kirk (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Ummm, NO IDEA!     I do know that "they" tried to give you
credit on each item, but it wouldn't fit! *whistle*


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## Chronuss (Sep 4, 2002)

wow, passion is definitely one way to put.  this was almost like a debate competition.  very well played and defended, gentlemen. 

however, I do have an idea about the original question in the thread.



> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *What does anyone use the universal pattern for?:idunno: *



well, like KenpoTess said, there 8, 16, and 32 foot movements on each side while standing in the center facing 12 o'clock (I may get a little over my here, so some interjections will be graciously welcomed).  originally, there were 32 techniques for each belt level when SGM Parker first developed it branching it from the 32 possible movements for each leg on each side(3 o'clock, and 9 o'clock, repsectively).  today, excluding the 10 for yellow belt, most of the ranks have 16 techniques and some of the upper ranks have 20.  

(I pasted a pic of the UP at the bottom..I hope)
also, while standing in the center of UP, each quarter circle/line shows on each side for an appropriate stance (ie, horse, bow, twist).

it also shows where any attack can originate from and also where a counter can be throw.  as stated earlier in the thread it shows all bodily motion possible with hands and feet.

like I said, I might be over my head, so some help would be...helpful


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## Seig (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _
> 
> * today, excluding the 10 for yellow belt, most of the ranks have 16 techniques and some of the upper ranks have 20.
> 
> *


Remember, that is not all assosciations.  that is another topic of hot debate.


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## Chronuss (Sep 6, 2002)

...maybe I shouda said that is IKKO curriculum.


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## Chronuss (Sep 6, 2002)

been having a lotta screw ups.  at least people are letting me know I'm wrong and not letting me continue with my stupidity.


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## Goldendragon7 (Sep 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chronuss _*
> been having a lotta screw ups.  at least people are letting me know I'm wrong and not letting me continue with my stupidity. *



Not stupidity at all!!   Just learning you are hummmmmphhhhhh


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## Seig (Sep 7, 2002)

21 days til you get to meet the MMA Sasquatch!


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## Rob_Broad (Sep 10, 2002)

For those looking for the Universal Pattern T-shirt

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1858126683


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