# Best Pistols for Self Defense



## rdonovan1 (Aug 11, 2009)

I was just wondering if anyone might happen to know what some of the best pistols are for self defense.

I am just curious because recently I stopped over at a local gunshop and was looking around at some of their guns just to get an idea of what is available and as to what some of the prices were as I am eventually planning on buying a pistol to help protect me better. At least long enough until I can find other and less lethal ways of defending myself better.

Ordinarily I would ask my mother's boyfriend about this stuff as he knows a lot about guns and is an avid collector of guns, but because he does not like either me or my aunt and because he is so controlling of my mother that really is not much of an option. 

All that I know for sure is that I need to find some way of protecting myself better because just yesterday for example someone came knocking on my door while I was on the phone trying to help my mother with a computer problem that she was having. 

When I answered the door I was thinking that it was one of my friends, but when I opened the door and looked outside I did not see any of my friends at all. What I did see is some guy that I have never met before in my life sitting on the stairs near my apartment asking me something about chips.

I ignored the guy and went back to my conversation with my mother and while I was on the phone this guy decided to walk right into my apartment without my permission. I don't know about anyone else but that tended to upset me and concern me greatly as I don't know this guy from a hole in the wall. All that I know is that if I had a gun, then I would have been well within my right to shoot him under the laws of the state that I live in as I have no way of knowing what this guy's true intentions are or even if he was armed or not. 

I don't know about anyone else, but I tend to think that if someone here were in that same position then they would be thinking and feeling the same way as I did yesterday when this guy came barging into my apartment without my permission. I could be wrong however about that though.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2009)

I suggest that you not concern yourself with a firearm.  IMHO, you have no business owning one at your stage in life.  I would not recommend one to you under any circumstances.  Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but that's how I see it.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 11, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I suggest that you not concern yourself with a firearm. IMHO, you have no business owning one at your stage in life. I would not recommend one to you under any circumstances. Sorry, don't mean to be rude, but that's how I see it.


 
I am just curious as to why you would say that and as to what suggestions then you would have that I can use to defend myself. 

Although I would like to be a black belt in a martial art, I have not reached that stage as of yet and I know that if I don't do something to defend myself then people can and will continue to try to take advantage of me and that is something that I just cannot allow at all as I have already been through quite enough.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 11, 2009)

rdonovan1,

How old are you?

May I suggest this. You need more awarness to keep yourself safe. This is ten times more important than weapons.

Like answering the door. Or walking the streets at night, or how to talk to strangers and still keep a safe distance.

The handgun is the last resort, not the first. Keeping yourself safe takes far far more than a weapon.

Deaf


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## K831 (Aug 11, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I am just curious as to why you would say that and as to what suggestions then you would have that I can use to defend myself.
> 
> Although I would like to be a black belt in a martial art, I have not reached that stage as of yet and I know that if I don't do something to defend myself then people can and will continue to try to take advantage of me and that is something that I just cannot allow at all as I have already been through quite enough.



I am very short on time right now, and I certainly don't speak for Bill, but I'll see if I can maybe give you some things to contemplate;


rdonovan1 said:


> When I answered the door I was thinking that it was one of my friends, but when I opened the door and looked outside I did not see any of my friends at all. What I did see is some guy that I have never met before in my life sitting on the stairs near my apartment asking me something about chips.
> 
> I ignored the guy and went back to my conversation with my mother and while I was on the phone this guy decided to walk right into my apartment without my permission.


  1.)I would say one of your biggest problems with self defense is your level of awareness. Consider the story you shared above. I cannot imagine opening my door without some idea of who was on the other side. Further, I cannot imagine simply disregarding a strange individual who knocked on my door, sat on my steps and engaged me in a strange conversation regarding chips. Then, to close the door and leave it unlocked so that the individual could walk in?

  My point isnt to be harsh, but to illustrate that the situation should never have happened. Considering where you level of threat awareness seems to be, a firearm would only make matters worse. Consider training yourself in this area first. Start with some good books like The Gift of Fear etc. 



rdonovan1 said:


> All that I know is that if I had a gun, then I would have been well within my right to shoot him under the laws of the state that I live in as I have no way of knowing what this guy's true intentions are or even if he was armed or not.


 
  2.)Perhaps so, but your attitude is a little casual regarding the use of lethal force for most gun people to look past and start recommending guns. Dont take that to mean I wouldnt hesitate to use such force on an intruder, but your post doesnt show the experience/awareness/maturity I would expect most on this site want to see before offering advice. Again, nothing personal  we all must take steps to improve in this area. 



rdonovan1 said:


> Although I would like to be a black belt in a martial art, I have not reached that stage as of yet


  3.)See my point above. If training empty hands to a degree of efficiency (not necessarily a black belt) is not something you can do right now in your stage of life, than there is no way you have the time/money/discipline to learn to use a hand gun for self defense. 



rdonovan1 said:


> I know that if I don't do something to defend myself then people can and will continue to try to take advantage of me and that is something that I just cannot allow


 
  4.)I agree completely. You do need to do something. But purchasing a handgun, and putting it on your hip or on your nightstand is not sufficient. You must change your level of awareness first. Learn to handle situations verbally and look at your physical training as a whole dont just buy a gun. 

  I dont know if some of these things are what Bill was thinking or not. But I hope this helps.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 11, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> rdonovan1,
> 
> How old are you?
> 
> ...


 
I am 40 years old and I fully agree with you that I need a lot more awarenes to keep myself safe. I also however need some way of defending myself not only phsyically, but also verbally as well.

I am working on the verbal and psychological aspect so that people do not find me as much of an easy target and that is why I study things like psychology, NLP, hypnosis, sales and marketing and everything else that I can get my hands on to defend myself from verbal and psychological attacks.

It however has not been very easy for me because it seems like everytime that I try to do something positive with my life and to defend myself I am immediately attacked by someone saying that I am being too aggressive and hostile. 

If I come off sounding that way, then it is not on purpose at all. It is just that I have seen and heard a lot of stuff over the years and I am not taking any wooden nickels or crap from anyone.

I think things might be a little easier for me if I had a job, had money coming in and I could do a better job of doing things like taking care of my overall health and fixing things like the damage that people have caused to my car for no reason at all. It also doesn't help when I have been having problems with some of my computers and when I have been the victim of several romance scams.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I am 40 years old and I fully agree with you that I need a lot more awarenes to keep myself safe. I also however need some way of defending myself not only phsyically, but also verbally as well.
> 
> I am working on the verbal and psychological aspect so that people do not find me as much of an easy target and that is why I study things like psychology, NLP, hypnosis, sales and marketing and everything else that I can get my hands on to defend myself from verbal and psychological attacks.
> 
> ...



You do not need a firearm.  Please do not buy a firearm.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 11, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You do not need a firearm. Please do not buy a firearm.


 
No offense intended at all, but what else can I do to protect myself then?

I don't know if it matters or even if it will help, but for over 5 years I drove a truck over the road and had to put up with a lot of crap from dispatchers and basically minimal pay. 

During that time I had a chance to see and hear a lot of crazy stuff while I was out on the road and that is not to mention the romance scams that I ended up getting caught up during my attempt to find true love.

During that time I spent a lot of time trying to study the dating, mating, and relating scene in an attempt to improve myself for the better.

When I moved to Albuquerque, New Mexico I met a guy that I thought was my friend and whom I thought would undertand what I was saying about the dating, mating, and relating scene but instead of understanding he basically turned around and backstabbed me and then wanted to physically fight me one day while we were at the job site.

When I moved here initially my thought was to make more of a life for myself so that I could actually go out and practice what I had been learning, but due to one of the companies that I was working for at the time that did not happen. As a result I changed employers because I thought that the new employer would not only pay me more, but would also allow me to have more of the work/life balance that I desperately needed. 

That however did not happen because like so many trucking companies out there they can and did lie to me even before I got in the door about what they would give me. This is something that is very common in the trucking industry as more often than not many trucking companies will tell you what you want to hear just to get you in the door because they are desperate. Once you get in the door however you more often than not find out that what the recruiters were telling you was nothing more than a big fat lie and that is why there is such a high turnover rate in the trucking industry.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 11, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> No offense intended at all, but what else can I do to protect myself then?



Nothing you described, in this post or any of the others, requires the use of a firearm.  That you don't see that is the reason I don't think you should have one.  You are describing yourself over and over as life's victim; and you think having a gun is going to fix things?  I think there are a lot of things you could do to seek some assistance in learning more about your problems and addressing them.  I wish you the best of luck.


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## Tames D (Aug 11, 2009)

I mean no disrespect but your too cynical. Try taking a more positive approach to life and I think you'll find it gets alot easier and people will treat you with more respect.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 11, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I mean no disrespect but your too cynical. Try taking a more possitive approach to life and I think you'll find it gets alot easier and people will treat you with more respect.


 
You might be right about me being cynical and you are probably right about me being more positive about life and that is exactly what I have been trying to do.

With no disrespect intended at all, it is difficult to do when you live in a high crime neighborhood and when you often run across people that are either more cynical and negative than I am or that are so screwed up that they for some reason cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. 

Sometimes it is because of drugs and sometimes it is due to them having severe psychological problems that they could use the help of a professional psychotherapist.

Some people however are just naturally so mean spirited and tend to lack decent morals and values that they really don't care as to who they hurt or for what reason. 

While I can't prove it at all I suspect that the people that vandalized my car in February of 2008 were the same two girls who were basically prostituting themselve's out in 2007 and whom I stupidly fell for their tricks.

While I can't do much about what they were doing, I at least could have been a lot smarter and more aware of what was going on at the time and for that I accept full responsibility for as I should have caught it a lot earlier than I did. 

While I admit that I have my problems, I am not the only one that has problems as we all have our problems of one sort or another. Some however just have more than others, and more often than not instead of accepting responsibility for their own actions and behavior they tend to like to play the play blame game and as a result they tend to expect other people to solve their problems for them.

I know that I am not perfect at all and that I can have a very short temper, but unlike a lot of people that I have come across in the past I try not to play the blame game at all by understanding and accepting my own faults and by trying to do what I can do to correct my own faults so that I am not making the same mistakes twice.


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 12, 2009)

Before you do *anything* further I strongly recommend picking up Jeff Cooper's book "Principles of Personal Defense". At this point that'll help get you mentally where you need to be before you do anything else.

Right now you need to sort out hardware( Awareness, correct mindset and so on). Software (unarmed defense, tools, firearms, what have you) must come later as software cannot run without hardware, to use a computer analogy.


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## Grenadier (Aug 12, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I am eventually planning on buying a pistol to help protect me better. At least long enough until I can find other and less lethal ways of defending myself better.


 
It doesn't work this way.  

If you are not willing to accept the fact that using a firearm in a defensive situation could very well result in lethal consequences for someone, then you should not get one of for defensive purposes.  

Don't bother with the "less than lethal" ammunition types, since they can certainly be lethal as well.  

You really should read Colonel Cooper's book, as Mr. Moynihan has suggested, before you make any further decisions.


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## blackxpress (Aug 12, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> No offense intended at all, but what else can I do to protect myself then?
> 
> I don't know if it matters or even if it will help, but for over 5 years I drove a truck over the road and had to put up with a lot of crap from dispatchers and basically minimal pay.
> 
> ...



Welcome to the world, my friend.  The kind of things you are describing are par for the course for most of us.  Life is filled with disappointments.  Other people can be the biggest disappointments of all.  Goes with the territory.  Please don't take this the wrong way but the thought of someone with your outlook carrying a loaded firearm gives me a bad case of the willies.  

My suggestion would be for you to get some counseling to help you learn how to deal with your frustration.  Also, if you're really interested in MA find a good dojo and start training hard.  You might be amazed at how much better you feel about things after a good karate workout.  

MA is not so much about learning how to defend yourself (although that is part of it) as it is a lifelong journey of self improvement which can help you gain inner strength as well as outer strength.  It will help you gain a more positive outlook which, seems to me, is something that would help you immensely.

Please don't buy a gun.  The decision to end someone else's life should be taken with grave seriousness.  You have to be absolutely certain there is no other possible resolution.  It's far too easy to pull the trigger and, once the bullet leaves the chamber you cannot get it back.  Sounds to me like, in your frame of mind, it would be too easy for you to make a fatal mistake that will ruin not only your own life but many other lives as well.


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## jarrod (Aug 12, 2009)

there is another very worthwhile book called "the gift of fear' by gavin debecker.  i think the information in it will do much more to protect you than a firearm at this point.  

jf


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 12, 2009)

jarrod said:


> there is another very worthwhile book called "the gift of fear' by gavin debecker. i think the information in it will do much more to protect you than a firearm at this point.
> 
> jf


 
I've never heard of that book before, but I have read the book 'Feel the fear and do it anyway' by Susan Jeffers.

I don't know if you ever get to watch the t.v. show Monsterquest, but lately they are talking about killer chimps right here in America. 

I also don't know if you have checked out the 'Awareness and self defense' thread, but if you have not then you may wish to check it out.


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## jarrod (Aug 12, 2009)

killer chimps?  if you are seriously concerned about killer chimps, you are never going to feel safe anywhere.

jf


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 13, 2009)

jarrod said:


> killer chimps? if you are seriously concerned about killer chimps, you are never going to feel safe anywhere.
> 
> jf


 

I thought that the show was interesting to say the least. They have had other shows on before relating to things like the Loch Ness Monster, Ogopogo, UFO's, and even Bigfoot. 

Out of all of them I only tend to give Bigfoot any credence at all due to the evidence that is out there suggesting to his possible existence and the fact that he has been seen and talked about long before we even developed the technology of film and in area's where it would be pretty stupid of someone who is trying to do a hoax because some of the area's that he has been seen in and time frames are so remote that it is very unlikely that they would be seen by someone other than the hoaxer.

Two states that I know of currently have laws protecting Bigfoot as well. One is Skamania County, Washington and the other is Whitehall, New York.

I find the subject interesting, but not quite as interesting as human nature and that is why I tend to stuy things like psychology, NLP, hynosis, business, sales & marketing and other related topics as I am really interested in what makes people tick and as to why they do what they do.

From what I have studied a lot of what people tend to do is based upon emotion and instinct and that is stuff that was not only well understood by the Samurai, but is also the subject of study by both the scientific community and the business world. It's also why marketers tend to know what buttons to push in you to get you to want to buy something like a steak. They tend to understand this stuff and as a result they have become very good at things like influence, persuasion, and even subliminal messaging. The know for example that if they want to get you buy a steak or anything else, then all they have to do is push the right buttons in you to get you to go buy what they are selling. They know that in the instance of steak that it is not the steak that makes you want to buy the steak, but the sizzle of the steak.

The place the they tend to use it the most often though is at the movie theater as they know that at some point you are going to want something to eat and drink during the movie and that is why they flash images of things like popcorn and soda up on the screen as that is their attempt to get you to go out into the lobby and buy that type of stuff. It's a sales tactic that they use and it is and has been proven to be very successful.

The Samurai also understood to a degree how the mind worked and that is how zen came about and that is the whole point of visualization. Chuck Norris is also very familiar with it and he even wrote about it in his book 'The power within'. He stated that on more than one occasion he would sit on the sidelines and watch the fighters in the ring battling it out and in his mind he would visualize himself up there fighting even before he got into the ring and the result was that because of that he often won the fight because he mentally rehearsed it in his mind on multiple occasions before he even got into the ring and that tended to help him to anticipate the kick or punch that his opponent was going to throw at him next.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 13, 2009)

You asked a specific question and you deserve a specific answer... 

1. Try some local shops and run through as many pistols and shotguns you can.... find one that fits you... maybe they have the exact same gun for rent on the range so you can try before you buy...  

I would start with a pump action 12 ga.   for an all around role... I would be more leary about shooting a handgun or rifle in an apartment...  

A mossberg 500 is inexpensive and allows for many different configurations...they are also better made now than they used to be... 
Since you have internet access...I would get familiar with the 5 rules of firearm safety and dig up as many training clips you can find for whatever platform you decide to go with wether its pistol or shotgun or both.... 

As far as pistols are concerned, I am partial to XD pistols for thier ergonomics, safety and accuracy... I also only do .45 acp and no less...


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 13, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> You asked a specific question and you deserve a specific answer...



The answer virtually everyone gave was quite specific - this person should not buy a firearm.  I think the reason everyone gave that answer should be glaringly obvious.  Everyone has done an outstanding job of keeping our personal thoughts to ourselves here, while trying to be gentle and still direct and emphatic.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 13, 2009)

I understand that... I really do. But its not our job to parent him. There are many people that have guns that know nothing about them. The posts here are not going to dissuade anyone either way...in the end, they will do what they want...   
So rather than try to mitigate something that is virtually impossible to do here on this forum... we might as well put him in the right direction when it comes to his persuit of his second amendment rights....  

I am not saying that there has not been some sound advice here...but I see nothing relative to the specific question other than use playing judge and jury based on what he types...   He is a grown man and deserves an answer relative to his question...not a lecture on awareness and how he shouldnt own a firearm...   

Not stepping on any toes but he can just as easily create a log in on m4carbine.net or ar15.com and get a plethora of firearms related feedback....


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## Tames D (Aug 13, 2009)

I love ya BL but your advice is only going to result in death or prison in this case.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 13, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I understand that... I really do. But its not our job to parent him. There are many people that have guns that know nothing about them. The posts here are not going to dissuade anyone either way...in the end, they will do what they want...
> So rather than try to mitigate something that is virtually impossible to do here on this forum... we might as well put him in the right direction when it comes to his persuit of his second amendment rights....
> 
> I am not saying that there has not been some sound advice here...but I see nothing relative to the specific question other than use playing judge and jury based on what he types...   He is a grown man and deserves an answer relative to his question...not a lecture on awareness and how he shouldnt own a firearm...
> ...



Purely hypothetical...

 Do you want to be the guy who told George Sodini what to buy?  Personally, I couldn't live with that on my conscience.


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## CoryKS (Aug 13, 2009)

The members of the sites that Black Lion listed may give advice purely on the merits of the weapons. But any advice given here is going to be filtered through the mindset of folks who have given a lot of thought to self defense, and if the poster's question raises red flags in their minds then that is going to be reflected in the replies. 

If he wants a purely objective opinion of one pistol over another, he can ask the question on a different forum. Count me among those who think the OP should not be considering purchasing a firearm.


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## Carol (Aug 13, 2009)

Firearms can be, and are, used irresponsibly.  

Buying a firearm for a purpose that doesn't require a firearm is irresponsible.

Count me among those who think the OP should not be considering purchasing a firearm.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 13, 2009)

rdonovan1,

You are 40? Then it's time for you to go to school if you want a firearm.

The NRA has classes just for those who have never touched a gun. Not only basic pistol, but personal protection courses.

http://www.nrainstructors.org/CourseCatalog.aspx

And after that, LFI-1 (Lethal Force Institute.) There you will learn the law as well as the gun. Massad Ayoob, a retired police captian, teachs the class.

http://www.ayoob.com/

Take the NRA class first, but do take the LFI class.

Oh, and Gavin's book, 'The Gift of Fear', is a good one. He is anti-gun but in his book he shows case studies of what I call 'personal train wrecks' you could see coming (but those involved never saw it coming!)

Deaf


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 14, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> rdonovan1,
> 
> You are 40? Then it's time for you to go to school if you want a firearm.
> 
> ...


 

Thank you for letting me know about that class. I will have to look into it as it has been quite a while since I have had firearm safety training.

I've handled guns in the past. When I was little my uncle and my grandfather started me out with BB guns. I then eventually moved on to .22's as I got older. 

At one point I did own a Mossberg 12 Gauge Shotgun, but due to my financial situation I had to sell the the gun just to get some cash. 

When I get some money coming in and as I get myself more situated I am going to buy a pistol first and then eventually other guns like a 30-06 and maybe even an AR-15.

I however am going to limit myself so that I am not dependent on guns like a lot of people are. 

My first choice is to rely on martial art type weapons or my unarmed techniques instead as that is the best choice. 

When I get the chance I'm also going to get into things like sports as well as I think that would do me a lot of good and would be fun.

For about a year now I've been working on call for a security company that does event security for the University of New Mexico and during some of the events that they have had me at I got to see some really interesting stuff. The first football game that they had me at they had two F-16's fly over the game at the begining and then during half-time they had 3 skydiver's skydive into the middle of the field. 

I personally thought that was pretty cool to see. My first priority right now is for me to get a decent paying job in my area and to increase my overall sense of security so that people are not messing around with my car or anything else that I own and so that I feel at least reasonably secure in my own personal protection when I am out and about. 

Once I can get that stuff handled as well as my overall physical appearance and health then maybe I will feel safe and secure enough to go back and work on playing the dating, mating, and relating game with the opposite sex and that is what I am aiming for at the moment. I also would like to be able to go back to school and get my degree as well.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 14, 2009)

I agree with what you guys are saying... but I would also be assuming he is not responsible eNough of an adult to own a firearm... Thats not up to me to decide... its up to the DOJ.... and it will be on them if something goes terribly wrong not us or the salesman at the gun counter...
In this thread I decided to take a different standpoint...despite what I can decifer from the op... I looked at the words and sentences very carefully and yes it raised some flags but it would be purely judgemental for me to go off the flags alone... 
I just saw a hint of judging the book by its cover without asking him about his history with firearms... apparently he has had them and has used them before... 

I am just playing the other side of the fence here and hopefully it will bring more to light so the right determination can be made. 

In the end... people do what they want anyway so I feel its better to stress the right points than to just say "you shouldnt own a firearm"... that would actually accelerate me into getting one faster....


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 14, 2009)

I wonder if it has ever occured to anyone that I have been lied to and scammed by so many people that I have since become very cynical and untrusting of most people. 

I also wonder if anyone has taken into account the fact that I am a former over the road truck driver and that I have had and currently do have a hazmat endorsement on my license. 

Getting a hazmat endorsement on your CDL is not an easy task as the Federal Government requires that you be fingerprinted and that an FBI background check be done on the individual prior to the hazmat endorsement being issued. 

Federal law prohibits issuance of a hazmat endorsement to anyone that has either a criminal history or that has a history of psychological problems because a truck loaded with hazardous materials can be used by a person as a weapon of mass destruction and that is why it is highly regulated by Federal and State Law Enforcement. 

I am just sick and tired of the whole truck driving gig over the road as it is not much of a life and I am looking to create the work/life balance that a lot of people seek in their lives and that is totally impossible to do when you are an over the road truck driver.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 14, 2009)

Tames D said:


> I love ya BL but your advice is only going to result in death or prison in this case.


 No it wont...and I am not giving him "advice" or offereing "advisement" as I would leave that up to an attorney... I am merely answering his question with my opinion.  
I didnt see that he wanted a gun becuase someone came in his home and asked about chips... I see that it may have got his radar bleeping and told him that what if the situation was different he would have  been screwed and under the castle doctrine(if applicable) he can exercise his rights... 
What I gathered is that there have been a couple occurences in his life that brought him to re-think and re-assess his current position...  I gathered that there is more to it than just wanting a firearm to blow off the head of the next guy who comes in his apartment asking about chips... I gathered that he is looking into every facet of "self defense" and chose the firearms forum to pose the question....  
I think he has more less lethal questions as well...


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## BLACK LION (Aug 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> killer chimps? if you are seriously concerned about killer chimps, you are never going to feel safe anywhere.
> 
> jf


 ahahahahahhahaahaahahhahahahhhhhahahahhahhahaaa


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## BLACK LION (Aug 14, 2009)

Regarding the original poster and its maker... 
Disregard anything I said as sound advice as it was never intended as such... I saw your question and I answered it without bias, however there might be some issues you want to revisit before taking the path towards owning a firearm...  

take care


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## Tames D (Aug 14, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> I am not giving him "advice" or offereing "advisement" as I would leave that up to an attorney


 
It sure sounded like advice to me but what the **** do I know. At the end of the day he's going to do what he wants anyway so I guess it doesn't really matter.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 15, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Before you do *anything* further I strongly recommend picking up Jeff Cooper's book "Principles of Personal Defense". At this point that'll help get you mentally where you need to be before you do anything else.
> 
> Right now you need to sort out hardware( Awareness, correct mindset and so on). Software (unarmed defense, tools, firearms, what have you) must come later as software cannot run without hardware, to use a computer analogy.



I strongly suspect that Jeff Cooper might be a bit overwhelming given the nature of the posts so far.


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## Hudson69 (Aug 15, 2009)

Before you jump into something as potentially final as carrying a firearm you would best be served by doing a few things first (and this is simply my own opinion).

1) Take a personal defense and awareness class, the mention of leaving a door open allowing someone to walk in is not good.  By law you might be able to "shoot" someone but he didn't sound like a threat to me.  The personal defense course might be something more up your alley and at the very least would give you more potential responses to possible threats.
2) If you are adament about getting a gun take a gun safety course first the NRA has two courses First Steps and Basic Pistol, I recommend Basic Pistol since it is longer and covers more informtation (and this would only be the first class you would want to take; just owning a gun doesn't mean you are good with it or even safe with it).
3) Talk to law enforcement and find out what the law is and take it to heart; find out other cases where people did something that you are imagining taking place and see what the end result is and see if you are willing to risk everything you hold dear so you dont have to "run" from a fight; since you sound a might too eager to get your hands around a multi-launch capable, solid metal missile firing device.

If you go through all of this and you have the right to bear arms then try out a slew of guns and find the one that works for you, not your buddy, not your brother, not the one recommended by the gun shop but the one that you have tried (50+ rounds with) and you can handle the kick, the reloads, you dont flinch and basically feel comfortable with.

After a .22 in the hands of a skilled marksman who likes his .22 is far deadlier than the .44 mag in the hands of a nervous twit who just wanted a cannon.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 25, 2009)

jarrod said:


> there is another very worthwhile book called "the gift of fear' by gavin debecker. i think the information in it will do much more to protect you than a firearm at this point.
> 
> jf


 
I just saw that book today while at Border's. It looked pretty interesting, but I did not have time to actually sit down and really take a look at it.

I did however notice that they had several other books relating to the topic of fear. I can't say that I fully understand the concept of fear and it is something that I am definitely interested in learning more about.

I do know however from reading a book called 'Feel the fear and do it anyway' by Susan Jeffers, PHD that you just cannot let your feel control you at all. 

A couple of other books that I am aware of that I have is 'Vital Lies, Simple Truths' by Daniel Goleman and most recently 'Toxic People' by Lillian Glass, PHD.

While I haven't yet read the book by Daniel Goleman as of yet, I do understand that there are a lot of people out there that can and do tend to lie to themselve's about a lot of things and I personally think that is not only stupid, but sick as well as that totally goes against the whole concept of self confidence and self esteem as you cannot allow yourself to be so afraid of things that you are afraid to step out your door.

I know that there will probably be a lot of people that either cannot or will not understand this at all, but one of the things that really gets me a lot is that there are so many people out there especially in the area's martial arts and law enforcement that think that you should or have to always be afraid of everything and that is a concept that I personally think is not only counter intuitive, but also very destructive because if you were to end up on the street meeting some guy that for some reason just wants to bash your head in, he can and will see any fear that you show him just like a dog or a cat would and that is why I believe that while it is normal and healthy to experience fear, it should not be something that you allow to hold yourself back from not only defending yourself in a real life, life or death street fight, but even in your overall daily life. 

People who let fear get the best of them are only doing themselve's a 
dis-servivce and that why psychologists tend to call it a self defeating behavior. 

I don't know if anyone is familiar with the old new year's resolutions that people tend to make to themselve's and then break, but that is basically the same concept as you are essentially telling yourself that you are going to do something that you believe would be a benefit to you, but then you end up not sticking to it at all. To put it in a martial art context it is kind of like signing up for Karate classes somewhere and telling yourself that you are going to reach black, blue, purple, or whatever other ranking that you are striving to attain and then not being willing to put in the work to actually make that happen because you are too afraid that you might get hurt or that the training is too hard for you to complete.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 25, 2009)

jarrod said:


> there is another very worthwhile book called "the gift of fear' by gavin debecker. i think the information in it will do much more to protect you than a firearm at this point.
> 
> jf


 

I would just like to thank you for telling me about that book. Perhaps when I get the money I can get that book and a few others as well and perhaps it along with other's will help me to understand as to why people are so fearful and as to what or if anything there is that I can do to help them to overcome that fear and negitivitly.


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## Big Don (Aug 25, 2009)

The best pistols for self-defense without a doubt:
LOADED
Unloaded pistols are oddly shaped pieces of metal that you can't throw very well...


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 26, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I just saw that book today while at Border's. It looked pretty interesting, but I did not have time to actually sit down and really take a look at it.
> 
> I did however notice that they had several other books relating to the topic of fear. I can't say that I fully understand the concept of fear and it is something that I am definitely interested in learning more about.
> 
> ...




I can see there is some misunderstanding among people on the nature of fear.......some view it as a limiting factor, i.e. fear to respond, fear to move, fear to act......a passive kind of fear........that is certainly one aspect of it.

There is a far more basic component to fear, however, that is as a motivating factor........and that's how I look at fear.  Someone may 'smell my fear' but they would be making a mistake if they misunderstood it as 'weakness'........i've never hurt ANYONE out of anger.........but i've hurt several people because they 'scared' me..........i'd never hit anyone that DIDN'T scare me.


Ergo, the trick is to use fear as a trigger, and learn to harness the adrenal response that accompanies fear.........i.e. I don't WANT to get hurt, so i'm going to avoid getting hurt by ATTACKING!  Scaring me isn't a victory for my opponent, it's a MISTAKE!

As pointed out about the guy on the street trying to cave my head in........he's going to see my fear, but it's going to manifest itself as VIOLENCE directed toward him........scaring me enough is LETHAL!


My uncle, a notorious rough guy back in his day, was talking to a group of my friends one day when we were out wrestling around.......one of them mentioned to him that they'd hate to see me mad.........he laughed and told him that they had nothing to worry about in making me mad, as I wouldn't do anything to anybody purely out of anger....I just wasn't that type....but that I was the type you NEVER wanted to SCARE, as i'd kill someone if they scared me enough......


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## Blindside (Aug 26, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I would just like to thank you for telling me about that book. Perhaps when I get the money I can get that book and a few others as well and perhaps it along with other's will help me to understand as to why people are so fearful and as to what or if anything there is that I can do to help them to overcome that fear and negitivitly.


 
DeBecker's book isn't about overcoming fear, it is about understanding fear, why you have it, and that you should pay attention to what it (your subconscious) is telling you.  Its about paying attention to those instincts that tend to get papered over in order to be polite to others.  This isn't the same thing as letting it rule you.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 26, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> IMy uncle, a notorious rough guy back in his day, was talking to a group of my friends one day when we were out wrestling around.......one of them mentioned to him that they'd hate to see me mad.........he laughed and told him that they had nothing to worry about in making me mad, as I wouldn't do anything to anybody purely out of anger....I just wasn't that type....but that I was the type you NEVER wanted to SCARE, as i'd kill someone if they scared me enough......


 
That reminds me Sgt. of a saying. "Do not frighten a little man, he'll kill you." Don't know if it's totaly true, but as they say, even a cornered rat will fight.

Deaf


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## BLACK LION (Aug 27, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> That reminds me Sgt. of a saying. "Do not frighten a little man, he'll kill you." Don't know if it's totaly true, but as they say, even a cornered rat will fight.
> 
> Deaf


 
Just look at that deer that kicked the @%&# out of that hunter while his wife filmed...  showed plain as day who the better killer was at that time... Or that fish outta water that would rather take a bite of a hand than take his last breath...   ETC...  we see it all the time in nature... 

Good points guys...


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## Hawke (Aug 28, 2009)

Instead of buying those books, try your local library.  You can also get some books as audio downloads if your library supports it.

The Gift of Fear is a good book.

Also look at increasing your skills if you want a higher income.

I think it's great that you want to finish your college degree.  A college degree will give you more options for employment.

Peace.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 28, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> Just look at that deer that kicked the @%&# out of that hunter while his wife filmed... showed plain as day who the better killer was at that time... Or that fish outta water that would rather take a bite of a hand than take his last breath... ETC... we see it all the time in nature...
> 
> Good points guys...


 
I think that I caught that one on tv. It was interesting, but I am less concerned with killer deer than I am things like bears, poisonous snakes, and of course Bigfoot.

I don't give much credence to things like the loch ness monster, ghosts, or UFO's, but I do know that bears and poisonous snakes do exist. 

While I can't say if Bigfoot exists or not I sure as heck would not go out into the wildneress without being armed. With all of the controversy that I have heard about him and due to all of the stories that I have heard about him I don't think that I would hesitate to shoot him if I were to see him.

From what I hear he tends to stand 8 to 10 feet tall, weigh's in the range of 500 to 1,000 pounds and can throw 50 gallon drums around like they are toys. I don't know about anyone else, but that sounds like something that I would definitely shoot. 

There's a couple of problems though with that. One is as to what kind of gun would you need to bring him down and what size of caliber. Another thing that I think one would have to take into consideration would be as to how they are going to get both them and him out of there before his friends show up and turn you into mince meat.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 29, 2009)

Hawke said:


> Instead of buying those books, try your local library. You can also get some books as audio downloads if your library supports it.
> 
> The Gift of Fear is a good book.
> 
> ...


 
I'm looking forward to my upcoming job with Akal Security. That ought to be very interesting.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 29, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> That reminds me Sgt. of a saying. "Do not frighten a little man, he'll kill you." Don't know if it's totaly true, but as they say, even a cornered rat will fight.
> 
> Deaf


Exactly!  I've never been much of a competition fighter.....I enjoy it, but there's really no internal heat that drives me to excel in a ring.......I'm not angry at my opponent, and even if I was, i've never been the kind to hurt people out of anger, so there's not driving force for me to hurt a fellow competitor......i'm just a nice guy.

When confronted by someone who wants to hurt me, however, there's a controlled inner panic that acts like a blast furnace, and has the effect of sharpening my wits and focusing my mind to a singular course of action........that is, of hurting them BEFORE they hurt me.

Now, that having been said.......it doesn't mean i've not let anger GET me in to situations where I suddenly realized that perhaps i've gotten myself in over my head, and have to fight my way out........but even in those situations, when push comes to shove comes to blows, i've not hit anyone out of anger.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 30, 2009)

My preference is to not fight at all if I can help it, but I do believe that it is better to be prepared than unprepared. 

I figure that if I am going to fight then I am going to end the fight in the shortest amount of time that I can and with me being the winner of the fight.

I'd rather be a winner than a loser anyday of the week.


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## bamarammin87 (Aug 31, 2009)

Most all pistols made today are excellent for self defense. I carry a 1911 10mm dan wesson now, but I've carried a glock 26, steel frame .38 snubbies, and a s&w 638 airweight. Out of all of them, the .38 airweight is EXTREMELY easy to carry. The 1911 is a big ol chunk of steel, but with a nice holster, it isn't as bad as you might think. I would get a s&w airweight .38+p if I were you. Decent power, but the main thing is they are excellent for carrying. I carried mine in a ankle holster while at work, IWB hoslter while at college, and in my right pocket any other time. I carried it every day, and miss it alot. I'd recommend a 638 or 642. I had the 638 and liked it alot.


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## bamarammin87 (Aug 31, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I think that I caught that one on tv. It was interesting, but I am less concerned with killer deer than I am things like bears, poisonous snakes, and of course Bigfoot.
> 
> I don't give much credence to things like the loch ness monster, ghosts, or UFO's, but I do know that bears and poisonous snakes do exist.
> 
> ...



The answer, my friend, is 10mm. I carry mine juuuuust in case a bigfoot happens to wander into town. Naw but for real, 10mm is an amazing cartridge.


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## bamarammin87 (Aug 31, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> Before you jump into something as potentially final as carrying a firearm you would best be served by doing a few things first (and this is simply my own opinion).
> 
> 1) Take a personal defense and awareness class, the mention of leaving a door open allowing someone to walk in is not good.  By law you might be able to "shoot" someone but he didn't sound like a threat to me.  The personal defense course might be something more up your alley and at the very least would give you more potential responses to possible threats.
> 2) If you are adament about getting a gun take a gun safety course first the NRA has two courses First Steps and Basic Pistol, I recommend Basic Pistol since it is longer and covers more informtation (and this would only be the first class you would want to take; just owning a gun doesn't mean you are good with it or even safe with it).
> ...



Also, pick up this book. In the Gravest Extreme by Massad Ayoob. The hardware side might seem a little dated, but the software side never changes. I'd recommend this to anybody who carries a gun for self defense.


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## zDom (Sep 1, 2009)

I have another book by Ayoob and have browsed a couple others. He writes good stuff.


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## bamarammin87 (Sep 1, 2009)

Yeah he does. I'm looking to buy the ayoob files sometime.


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## rdonovan1 (Sep 3, 2009)

Has anyone ever seen some of the stuff that Paladin Press and Delta Press publish?

I am just curious because I have seen and been aware of many of their publications and from what I have seen a lot of it is extremely interesting. They tend to have a lot of stuff relating to guns, but they also have a lot of stuff relating to topics like martial arts, new identity and other related topics.


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## rdonovan1 (Sep 3, 2009)

bamarammin87 said:


> The answer, my friend, is 10mm. I carry mine juuuuust in case a bigfoot happens to wander into town. Naw but for real, 10mm is an amazing cartridge.


 
I've never heard of a 10mm cartridge before. This is the first time that I have ever heard of that.

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm thinking that if you were to run across a bear or Bigfoot then the best cartridge with the most stopping power would probably be .50 cal. 30-06 might work as well, but at the moment I am just not quite sure about that.

Just the other day while I was in my level three training for AKal Security the instructor was saying there was once an incident in which an entire police force had to take down a guy that was so drunk that even 6 bullets in him had no effect at all. The guy did not die, but tends to really make you wonder about things a bit.


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## bamarammin87 (Sep 3, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I've never heard of a 10mm cartridge before. This is the first time that I have ever heard of that.
> 
> I don't know about anyone else, but I'm thinking that if you were to run across a bear or Bigfoot then the best cartridge with the most stopping power would probably be .50 cal. 30-06 might work as well, but at the moment I am just not quite sure about that.
> 
> Just the other day while I was in my level three training for AKal Security the instructor was saying there was once an incident in which an entire police force had to take down a guy that was so drunk that even 6 bullets in him had no effect at all. The guy did not die, but tends to really make you wonder about things a bit.









http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh35/GTS197_2008/10mm-1.jpg
:shooter:
http://frontlinearmory.com/misc/10mm.jpg
there's a reason people carry it as bear protection!


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## prokarateshop (Oct 25, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> rdonovan1,
> 
> How old are you?
> 
> ...




I agree, 

Be careful, there are times when firearms will cause you to escalate a situation..


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## bamarammin87 (Mar 8, 2010)

prokarateshop said:


> I agree,
> 
> Be careful, there are times when firearms will cause you to escalate a situation..


Yes, but when I'm carrying a firearm, I find myself trying harder to stay out of trouble and m.y.o.b. As do most people, I hear. Confidence is a great thing.


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## Larry G. Bethers (Apr 22, 2010)

Greetings.  I have read your post and the responses offered for your personal situation.  I concur.  Carrying a firearm is an awesome responsibility and one not to be taken lightly.  The recommendation for Gavin DeBecker's "Gift Of Fear" is an excellent recommendation.  Another book I recommend is "On Killing" by a former Army Officer.  You do not want to put yourself in a position where you have to take another person's life.  It will really mess you up for the rest of your life.  Avoidance is best.  "Best block, no be there" concept really works.  As for a firearm, it is your personal choice but to make that choice you need to have professional training in all aspects of handgun use not just going to the range and putting bullets down range.  Then you need to practice and drill on a regular basis.  If in your personal, final analysis you still feel the need for a gun get some expert, in person advice and try a few out to see what fits you.  Then sit down and really decide if that is the correct decision.  As one post so aptly put it, once the bullet leaves the barrel there are no do-overs and your decision to shoot better have been the correct one.


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