# Beginner Wing Chun: Help with reflexes



## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

I've been practicing Wing Chun only for three weeks, I'm really enjoying it and I'm picking up the positions and memorising movements okay, but I'm not reacting quick enough whilst sparring. Our sifu was showing us during chi sau for one to try to chop the opponents neck, but for the opponent to block with the opposite hand, and slide their forearm towards the attackers neck whilst pulling the attacking hand towards him for extra force. I could perform the counter during the slow demonstration, but when it came to sparring I just couldnt react quick enough, and i found it happening with other counters during sparring too. Is there anything I can do outside of lessons to help better my reflexes?

sorry if my descriptions are a little vague, I admit I am a complete beginner and terminology is also something I've yet to grasp.


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## yak sao (Aug 22, 2014)

You've been at it for only 3 weeks. Give it time.

You haven't had time to practice anything long enough to commit it to muscle memory. By putting your feet to the fire so early in your training, there is no way you are going to react properly. You are either going to tense up and try to muscle your way through it, or if you've had any previous training, you will revert back to that.

As for is there anything you can do outside of class to better your reflexes? Yes, practice. Make the moves as natural to you as reaching out and flicking on a light switch. It's going to take time and a lot of effort...that's why they call it kung fu.


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

Thanks, I guess I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. It's just that when I learn something in class I want to have improved on it by the next class, we have two a week normally (bank holiday next week so only one) but when I started learning I promised myself I'd get fit too and now I've just got this thirst to improve on everything constantly, and whilst I can practice the movements of chi sau alone, it's hard to practice the counters because obviously I'm deciding when the attack is coming in, but during class my opponent is obviously not as predictable as I anticipate by practicing alone. I think I'm just a little too excited about it all and should just focus on what I can in my own time.


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## yak sao (Aug 22, 2014)

Beholdthecoma said:


> Thanks, I guess I'm getting a bit ahead of myself. It's just that when I learn something in class I want to have improved on it by the next class, we have two a week normally (bank holiday next week so only one) but when I started learning I promised myself I'd get fit too and now I've just got this thirst to improve on everything constantly, and whilst I can practice the movements of chi sau alone, it's hard to practice the counters because obviously I'm deciding when the attack is coming in, but during class my opponent is obviously not as predictable as I anticipate by practicing alone. I think I'm just a little too excited about it all and should just focus on what I can in my own time.



Your enthusiasm is understandable. I was the same way when I started, and that was over 3 decades ago. What you need to understand is you've embarked on a journey...quite honestly one without a final destination.
If you stay with MA any length of time, and I hope you do, you are going to have many peaks and valleys along the way.
Always keep in mind that the only way you could possibly fail is by quitting. Each day you train is another step further.

You are going to look back on yourself a year from now and be amazed at how far you've come.


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

Haha thanks, I hope so. I'll take it as it comes, no one has put it that way before, when you said "a journey with no final destination". I like that because it means not that you'll never achieve anything fully in a depressing way, but rather that there aren't limits to what you can learn. Exciting stuff! Thanks for your help.


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## Argus (Aug 22, 2014)

You have to commit everything to muscle memory. Chisao is an instinctual thing. Really, it just takes time to learn. And you can absolutely benefit from practicing movements solo. I used to spend a large amount of time just practicing rolling (poon sau) in the air/and or in front of a mirror, when I first started chisao. That, and practicing your forms will get you far.

Also, don't be afraid to ask your training partner to slow down and help you with what you're doing. Chisau is not a competition.


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## mook jong man (Aug 22, 2014)

How come you've only been training for three weeks and you are already doing chi sau?
The main reason you can't seem to counter anything is probably because it is too advanced for you.

After only three weeks you haven't had time to develop any real speed , force or reflex so it's no great surprise that you can't do much when it goes random.

To be honest , if you were my student you would probably still be learning the first section of the form , and maybe just starting to learn single sticking hands after three weeks.

But you are not learning off me , so if I were you I would practice the form a lot , practice your pivoting and work on your single sticking hands every chance you get.
Quick reactions will come in time , but only after you have laid down a sufficient foundation first.

Remember , it's not a race.


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

I think the reason is because I'm the only new student, the rest have been there between 6 months and 2 years. I haven't learned first form yet but I would like to, I'd like to have more to practice at home. I'd learn it through books and videos but I don't want to undermine my sifu or anything.


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## Argus (Aug 22, 2014)

You've been at it 3 weeks and you still haven't been taught the form? Have you at least worked on the basics in isolation?

I have to agree with Mook. That is a bit concerning. Usually, Sil Lim Tao is the first thing you start off with. It's essential for building a solid foundation. You don't normally get into full blown chisao for quite some time -- certainly not before having learned the first form.


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

I've been taught siu lim tao but only for use in chi sau not as a form, i just know how to practice the motions for siu lim tao in sparring, but for all i know that's all it is. It would suck if my sifu sucks, the next school is like 8 miles away. Maybe more. My sifu seems quite good though, and he's quite reputable, you can look him up if you'd like, his name is Barry Phelan. Maybe I missed something during class, and it's my fault


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

I am a complete novice so all you're telling me is a great help, sorry if i seem a little less read than i should


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## mook jong man (Aug 22, 2014)

Beholdthecoma said:


> I think the reason is because I'm the only new student, the rest have been there between 6 months and 2 years. I haven't learned first form yet but I would like to, I'd like to have more to practice at home. I'd learn it through books and videos but I don't want to undermine my sifu or anything.



Ok , seems like he is using you to even up the numbers for chi sau.
Which is probably of benefit to the more experienced people but isn't doing a whole lot of good for you when it really comes down to it.

What he should be doing is getting the people who have been there for six months to work with you separately and do some revision , they won't like it but that's just tough isn't it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2014)

Beholdthecoma said:


> I've been taught siu lim tao but only for use in chi sau not as a form, i just know how to practice the motions for siu lim tao in sparring, ...


I like your teacher's teaching method. MA is used to "solve problem". You first learn what kind of problems that you will need to solve, you then find a path to reach to your goal. In artificial intelligence, this is called "bi-directional search". You start your searching both from the "root" and "leaf" of a tree at the same time. You then find the complete path when both searches meet at the middle of the tree branch.

IMO, you should use:

1. partner drill to "develop" your skill,
2. sparring/wrestling to "test" your skill,
3. solo drill (or form) to "polish" your skill,
4. equipment training to "enhance" your skill.

That 1,2,3,4 order is important. You have to "develop" your skill first before you can "polish" it.


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## dlcox (Aug 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like your teacher's teaching method. MA is used to "solve problem". You first learn what kind of problems that you will need to solve, you then find a path to reach to your goal. In artificial intelligence, this is called "bi-directional search". You start your searching both from the "root" and "leaf" of a tree at the same time. You then find the complete path when both searches meet at the middle of the tree branch.
> 
> IMO, you should use:
> 
> ...



Well put John. Simple and to the point.


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 22, 2014)

Thats reassuring, at least, I wouldn't be knocked into not going any more, i could still learn from it, but thats worst case, i feel confident in his methods even from an uneducated opinion i do feel like the progression is there, he doesn't just teach us HOW, but also WHY, often demonstrating the moves on us, and why we don't want to make mistakes.


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## mook jong man (Aug 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like your teacher's teaching method. MA is used to "solve problem". You first learn what kind of problems that you will need to solve, you then find a path to reach to your goal. In artificial intelligence, this is called "bi-directional search". You start your searching both from the "root" and "leaf" of a tree at the same time. You then find the complete path when both searches meet at the middle of the tree branch.
> 
> IMO, you should use:
> 
> ...



Sorry , you think throwing somebody in the deep end is a good training method?
There is a very important reason that there is a certain progression in Wing Chun , it is because each new concept and skill learned builds on the last.

Those who try to short circuit and fast track through these progressions are only cheating themselves of a proper foundation , and usually end up having no stance and no power.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Sorry , you think throwing somebody in the deep end is a good training method?
> There is a very important reason that there is a certain progression in Wing Chun , it is because each new concept and skill learned builds on the last.
> 
> Those who try to short circuit and fast track through these progressions are only cheating themselves of a proper foundation , and usually end up having no stance and no power.



The artificial intelligence has 3 searching methods.

1. Forward search - you search from the root and reach to your leaf (you learn form first, and spar later).
2. Backward search - you search from the leaf and reach back to your root (you sparring first, and lean form later).
3. Bi-directional search - you search from both the root and leaf at the same time (you lean partner drill, sparring, and solo drill (not form) at the same time).

The scientific proof shows the:

- "2. backward search" is faster than the "1. forward search" because there is only 1 root, but there are many leaves.
- "3. Bi-directional search" is twice as fast as both "1. forward search" and "2. backward search". The reason is simple. If you alternate "forward search" and "backward search", you can skip a large amount of "unnecessary" searching area from both directions.

Besides the above scientific proof, if we apply this into our MA training, here is a simple example. 

- Your teacher teaches you left Tan Shou and right vertical punch.
- You develop it through your Chi shou.
- You test it through your sparring.

Since you (general YOU) are still a beginner, through "developing" and "testing', you will soon find out that

- your left Tan Shou doesn't seal your center well enough.
- your right vertical punch doesn't generate enough power.
- your body is not unified as one single unit.
- ...

When your teacher start to teach your SNT form, you will concentrate and appreciate all those basic training.

Here is my personal experience. I learned sparring in my early training period. At that period of time, I was only allowed to spar with "1 person attack, 1 person defense" format. When I played my defense rule, I found out quickly that to "move my head away from my opponent's punch" was very important. Later on when I started to learn solo forms, I always included my head/body dodging along with my blocking. By doing this way, even if I may miss my blocking, since my head and body is already move out of my opponent's striking path, I'm still safe from my opponent's punch.  If I learned form first, there is no way that I could realize that the "dodging" skill could be that important in my early training stage. Of course my teacher could teach me that "head dodging" is important. It was still better to experience it all by myself.


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## Argus (Aug 22, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The artificial intelligence has 3 searching methods.
> 
> 1. Forward search - you search from the root and reach to your leaf (you learn form first, and spar later).
> 2. Backward search - you search from the leaf and reach back to your root (you sparring first, and lean form later).
> ...



Artificial intelligence and human methods of learning are not so comparable as you're making out here.

And, it's not as if I'm not familiar with the subject matter. I've written programs utilizing those methods.

The problem is that students can make bad techniques to work in sparring or chisao. This is rewarded in the short term, but hinders them in the long run.

Don't get me wrong. I'm actually a huge proponent of jumping in the deep end, and getting a perspective on the subject matter. But a martial art is very habit-centric. In fact, you might define training as forming a system of habits. As such, you have to be very particular as to what habits you develop. People are not so self-aware, and rarely even recognize existing habits, much less those being formed in the moment as they're sparring or practicing chisao. As such, they require careful isolation and practice in order to form a correct base upon which everything else can be built. Neglect that base, and you'll just end up with a pile of rubble eventually.

Computers are a different animal. Even the most advanced artificial intelligence is completely aware of the information it's accessing, processing, interpreting, and storing, and does no more or less than what it has been programmed to do. Not so of people. We absorb all kinds of things whether we're aware of them or not.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2014)

Argus said:


> People are not so self-aware, and rarely even recognize existing habits,...


Let's use the "problem solving" model again. If 

- my opponent hits my head 10 times in one sparring, I will know that I have not protected my head well enough (problem). Later on when someone teaches me how to protect my head (solution), 
- I have hit my opponent 10 times as hard as I can, but he is still standing, I will know that I don't have good punching power (problem). Later on when someone teaches me how to generate power (solution),

I will spend all my effort and very humble to learn it. If I can bench press 250 lbs, when someone tries to teach me "power generation", I may just 

- laugh at him, 
- ignore his teaching, and 
- miss my chance of learning.

Without knowing my "problem", when someone tries to teach me the "solution", I may not have strong enough desire to learn it. Without knowing that a good job will help me to find a wife, I may not study hard enough in school.

We all have to "experience" the wrong way before we can "appreciate" the right way. Without that personal experience, right or wrong is just a theory in our head and not an experience on our body.


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## Beholdthecoma (Aug 23, 2014)

Either way I'm gonna keep at it because it's better than not doing anything at all, and maybe in the future I'll find someone who can help smooth any edges in that department, or maybe my sifu has a plan. Any way, as someone previously mentioned it's an eternal learning curve that no one can reach the end of. Thanks for the advice guys, wish me the best


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## Marnetmar (Sep 6, 2014)

Argus said:


> You've been at it 3 weeks and you still haven't been taught the form? Have you at least worked on the basics in isolation?
> 
> I have to agree with Mook. That is a bit concerning. Usually, Sil Lim Tao is the first thing you start off with. It's essential for building a solid foundation. You don't normally get into full blown chisao for quite some time -- certainly not before having learned the first form.



I actually was taught lop sau, footwork and feeding for a while before learning SLT.


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## Argus (Sep 6, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> I actually was taught lop sau, footwork and feeding for a while before learning SLT.



Well, yes. It's customary to teach some of the basics such as stance, punching, foot-work, and maybe something like pak-sau sometimes before Siu Nim Tao. All of that is part of Siu Nim Tao anyway. But I've never heard of jumping into full-blown Chisao without covering the form first.


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## WingChunKid (Sep 9, 2015)

The best thing to do to improve reflexes and speed is to literally give it time. Get used to the movements and perform them correctly. If you rush with speed you will end up fast but with bad technique and structure. You take your time, and take it slowly since you've only been doing Wing Chun for a matter of weeks, you will eventually have good speed and technique. I had to do things slowly for a few months.


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