# Muzzleloader discovery leads to Michigan man's death



## Rich Parsons (Jan 14, 2009)

An article about a Muzzle Loader and an accidental death. 

http://www.freep.com/article/20090114/NEWS06/90114123/1001/rss01




> Muzzleloader discovery leads to Michigan man's death
> 
> NEWAYGO -- A father and sons discovery of a muzzleloader left near a trash bin has resulted in the bizarre accidental shooting death of the younger man.
> 
> ...


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2009)

"Always assume the weapon is loaded."


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## MA-Caver (Jan 14, 2009)

Tragic but stupid. 
Just like the Darwin Award winner I read about a few years ago. He was cleaning out a muzzle loader and decided to look into the barrel while holding a bic lighter at the other end to see if he can spot any more dirt that he might've missed. There was no ball but the resultant blast still killed him. 

People should have a healthy respect for the muzzleloader... they helped kill hundreds of thousands in the Civil War, slaughter millions of buffalo and protected families out on the prairie plains for years until the advent of the cartridge rifle. 

They should've taken the rifle to a reputable gunsmith. After it was professionally cleaned they would've had hours of enjoyment with it.


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## arnisador (Jan 14, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> They should've taken the rifle to a reputable gunsmith. After it was professionally cleaned they would've had hours of enjoyment with it.



Great advice in retrospect. What a shame.

Do we need mandatory firearm education in the public schools? Would it help?


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## tellner (Jan 14, 2009)

Darwin Award candidate.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 14, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Great advice in retrospect. What a shame.
> 
> Do we need mandatory firearm education in the public schools? Would it help?


Sure we do... I'm all for it and I'm sure there are dozens more here on this forum alone that are as well... but the anti-guns in this nation wouldn't allow it. They'll fight awfully damn hard against it.


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## thardey (Jan 15, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Great advice in retrospect. What a shame.
> 
> Do we need mandatory firearm education in the public schools? Would it help?


 
"But kids are going to play with guns anyway, so we need to teach them how to do it responsibly."


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 15, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Great advice in retrospect. What a shame.
> 
> Do we need mandatory firearm education in the public schools? Would it help?


 There are worse ideas about what needs to be taught in public schools.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 15, 2009)

thardey said:


> "But kids are going to play with guns anyway, so we need to teach them how to do it responsibly."


 We need to provide them safe guns to play with.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 15, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Sure we do... I'm all for it and I'm sure there are dozens more here on this forum alone that are as well... but the anti-guns in this nation wouldn't allow it. They'll fight awfully damn hard against it.


 We had firearms courses when I was in school......it was part of PE......a hunters ed/safety course and archery.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 15, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Great advice in retrospect. What a shame.
> 
> Do we need mandatory firearm education in the public schools? Would it help?


 

And it's 10 years now I been trying to tell them exactly that.


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## tellner (Jan 15, 2009)

How about simple things like "Don't heat firearms with a blowtorch?"


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 15, 2009)

Now and then they find old civil war cannon balls that are still live. One was killed about a year ago when he used a grinder (yes grinder) on a live Civil War Naval cannon ball. The sparks set off the primer/powder and just blew him to pieces.

Same goes for old muzzleloaders. The black power, if dry, will be good for hundereds of years.

And like others have said here, "all guns are loaded" even when unloaded (that is we treat them as if they were loaded.)

Deaf


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## grydth (Jan 15, 2009)

Given that people have found ways to kill themselves with an amazing number and array of objects, I honestly wonder if this really is even about firearms. 

Unmentioned so far - who was the idiot who disposed of a loaded rifle at a common trash bin? What kind of sense does that show?

The two men who found the gun apparently never considered consulting anyone from a police officer (it may have been stolen) to a gunsmith. 

What academic course would have helped here? How do you teach common sense or concern for others?

Its a shame that the young man died this way... but the least a father should teach is to either leave the thing alone or get somebody who knows better.


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## arnisador (Jan 15, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> We had firearms courses when I was in school......it was part of PE......a hunters ed/safety course and archery.



That makes a great deal of sense to me. It's certainly a practical education...and most of what we had for PE when I was in school could most charitably be described as 'useless', unfortunately.


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## Skpotamus (Jan 15, 2009)

Actually, I've used a blowtorch to help get a breech plug out of a muzzle loader before.  We've used that method at work to get parts unstuck in machines.  The heat makes things expand and if heated differently (breech plug and barrel), it can make it much easier to get out.  

My gunsmith actually showed me to use it with firearms.  Of cource, that was after we'd cleared the gun and made sure it was empty, including firing a cap through it into a snail to make sure it was unloaded.  

Personally, as a NRA instructor, I think firearms safety should be taught in schools to children as young as possible.  And kept up on during each year to make sure kids know how to handle a gun safely and what to do if they find one.  

They teach sex ed in schools to kids as young as 10 in some places.  Why not teach them to responsibly handle firearms at the same age?


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## Carol (Jan 16, 2009)

Because the anti-gun politicians don't want law abiding citizens to know that effective gun safety really is as simple as The Big Four.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 16, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> Actually, I've used a blowtorch to help get a breech plug out of a muzzle loader before.  We've used that method at work to get parts unstuck in machines.  The heat makes things expand and if heated differently (breech plug and barrel), it can make it much easier to get out.
> 
> My gunsmith actually showed me to use it with firearms.  Of cource, that was after we'd cleared the gun and made sure it was empty, including firing a cap through it into a snail to make sure it was unloaded.
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree more!  That's why my daughter has her first .22 rifle at age 6......and she's going to learn how to start shooting safely and responsibly as soon as the weather stops being sub-zero!


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## seasoned (Jan 16, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Because the anti-gun politicians don't want law abiding citizens to know that effective gun safety really is as simple as The Big Four.


It would seem that way. If taught and adhered to, it would alleviate a lot of the crap we read or hear about in the news.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 16, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> They teach sex ed in schools to kids as young as 10 in some places. Why not teach them to responsibly handle firearms at the same age?


 
I feel the same way. We teach them how to drive a car, 'safe sex' (is there really such a thing?), and run a computer. So why not teach them how to handle a gun safely? It's not like they are rare.

Oh wait, I know why. To teach them how to handle them safely will destroy their fear of guns, and any good anti-gunner sure would not want that. This is expecially true for schools since the teachers unions are pretty anti-gun! No gun safety, more of them fear guns. If a few kids get killed, well that's the price to take guns out of society.

Deaf


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## arnisador (Jan 16, 2009)

Even a classroom class or two in gun safety--without a lab. component--would probably help save lives. That's a good thing. We don't have guns but made sure our kids knew the basics, and had them read some basic gun safety material. Friends had them at their houses, after all--anything could happen. I'd certainly support adding gun safety, CPR, and a few other basic skills that are safety/citizenship issues to the schools. The Second Amendment is important, and with it comes a society in which people will have firearms.



Deaf Smith said:


> Oh wait, I know why. To teach them how to handle them safely will destroy their fear of guns, and any good anti-gunner sure would not want that.



Let's be fair--you could turn this around and talk about the NRA. They'd defend your right to own the Russian nuclear arsenal if you could afford it.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 17, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Let's be fair--you could turn this around and talk about the NRA. They'd defend your right to own the Russian nuclear arsenal if you could afford it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 17, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Let's be fair--you could turn this around and talk about the NRA. They'd defend your right to own the Russian nuclear arsenal if you could afford it.


 That's neither fair nor remotely true.

And the 'guns equals nuclear weapons' argument is a common Non sequitur of anti-gunners........it's the same as linking the right to criticize the government with child pornography in order suppress the right to criticize the government......'it does not follow'.


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## grydth (Jan 17, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> I feel the same way. We teach them how to drive a car, 'safe sex' (is there really such a thing?), and run a computer. So why not teach them how to handle a gun safely? It's not like they are rare.
> 
> Oh wait, I know why. To teach them how to handle them safely will destroy their fear of guns, and any good anti-gunner sure would not want that. This is expecially true for schools since the teachers unions are pretty anti-gun! No gun safety, more of them fear guns. If a few kids get killed, well that's the price to take guns out of society.
> 
> Deaf



Well, it is hard to argue against educating kids on this... but we need to be realistic about how much it will work.

Sure we teach kids about driving - and how safe do you feel on a highway? We do have sex education - and an explosion of teen births; kids with DARE certificates are popping pills in the bathrooms. Kids have computer skills, sure - 13 year old girls can now send nude pictures all over and threaten other kids on Facebook.

Education reaches and helps many kids, but never imagine that classes alone will prevent instances like this one.

As to fear of guns, I have to disagree with you. I think we should teach a *healthy* fear. I've been shooting and driving for decades, but I am still afraid when I lock and load or turn an ignition key. That fear reminds me that I or somebody else can be dead pdq if I don't pay attention and take every precaution. Its the morons without fear that'll kill you every time on the highway or with a gun.


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## theletch1 (Jan 17, 2009)

grydth said:


> Well, it is hard to argue against educating kids on this... but we need to be realistic about how much it will work.
> 
> Sure we teach kids about driving - and how safe do you feel on a highway? We do have sex education - and an explosion of teen births; kids with DARE certificates are popping pills in the bathrooms. Kids have computer skills, sure - 13 year old girls can now send nude pictures all over and threaten other kids on Facebook.
> 
> ...


It's not a healthy *fear* of guns that's needed, it's a healthy *respect* that's needed.  Same for the other examples that you gave.  No one should fear drugs, sex or whatever.  There needs to be a healthy respect for the consequences of abusing/partaking in these actions.  Fear is irrational.  It relies, not on information and reasoned thought, but on an ethereal "something" that isn't easily explained.  I drive an 18 wheeler for a living and if I felt fear each day as I climbed into the cab I'd have parked my rig a long time ago.  What I DO have is a healthy respect for what it takes to move an 80,000 lb rig safely down the road while in close proximity with a ton of others who may or may not have that same respect for the danger of what they are doing.

edit: when I was in middle school many decades ago we had the hunter safety and archery classes.  I don't think the schools around here have it anymore.  For a while in the Commonwealth of Virginia anyone under 18 could not obtain a hunting license without the safety class certification.


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## arnisador (Jan 17, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> That's neither fair nor remotely true.



I wasn't seriously suggesting that the two are equivalent. I _was_ suggesting that the comments about gun-restriction advocates here are a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black. No one is more knee-jerk in their reactions than the NRA--they're the canonical example of a group that would oppose legislation they actually favour for fear that if it went through it might lead to legislation they oppose. To make as though gun control advocates are the only one staking an exaggerated position is outlandish.


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## grydth (Jan 17, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> It's not a healthy *fear* of guns that's needed, it's a healthy *respect* that's needed.  Same for the other examples that you gave.  No one should fear drugs, sex or whatever.  There needs to be a healthy respect for the consequences of abusing/partaking in these actions.  Fear is irrational.  It relies, not on information and reasoned thought, but on an ethereal "something" that isn't easily explained.  I drive an 18 wheeler for a living and if I felt fear each day as I climbed into the cab I'd have parked my rig a long time ago.  What I DO have is a healthy respect for what it takes to move an 80,000 lb rig safely down the road while in close proximity with a ton of others who may or may not have that same respect for the danger of what they are doing.
> 
> edit: when I was in middle school many decades ago we had the hunter safety and archery classes.  I don't think the schools around here have it anymore.  For a while in the Commonwealth of Virginia anyone under 18 could not obtain a hunting license without the safety class certification.



To a significant extent, I suspect my "healthy fear" is akin to your "respect".... while I disagree on some minor tangential points, I would rather yield than untrack the thread with a debate on semantics.

With respect to school courses, I do not see such offered anywheres here. Both our boys had training in the Boy Scouts and other private sources, including the NRA, are available.


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## grydth (Jan 17, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I wasn't seriously suggesting that the two are equivalent. I _was_ suggesting that the comments about gun-restriction advocates here are a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black. No one is more knee-jerk in their reactions than the NRA--they're the canonical example of a group that would oppose legislation they actually favour for fear that if it went through it might lead to legislation they oppose. To make as though gun control advocates are the only one staking an exaggerated position is outlandish.



The two groups can work together to pass common sense legislation - witness the NRA and Senator Schumer agreeing on legislation to keep guns out of the hands of maniacs just after the Virginia Tech massacre.

Nothing gets done when the nation is completely polarized, as it was during the Bush-Clinton era. I recall Bill Clinton describing, wrongly as it turned out, his 1994 gun legislation as 'the camel's nose getting under the tent' - with rhetoric like that, it is understandable that the NRA would take the positions it has.


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## tellner (Jan 17, 2009)

grydth said:


> We do have sex education - and an explosion of teen births;


Not exactly. What we had was an "explosion" of teen births in the places where there was abstinence-only sex education. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy. So does the availability of birth control. "Just don't do it" doesn't increase the age of first intercourse or out-of-wedlock sex. It just increases the chances of STD and pregnancy when it does happen.



> Education reaches and helps many kids, but never imagine that classes alone will prevent instances like this one.


But ignorance will make us safer? Not on this planet.


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## grydth (Jan 17, 2009)

tellner said:


> Not exactly. What we had was an "explosion" of teen births in the places where there was abstinence-only sex education. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy. So does the availability of birth control. "Just don't do it" doesn't increase the age of first intercourse or out-of-wedlock sex. It just increases the chances of STD and pregnancy when it does happen.
> 
> 
> But ignorance will make us safer? Not on this planet.



Actually, we do find numerous instances of behavior occurring even where people have had classes in it.

My point is not to encourage ignorance, but rather a caution to not over rely on a class as a universal solution.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 18, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I wasn't seriously suggesting that the two are equivalent. I _was_ suggesting that the comments about gun-restriction advocates here are a definite case of the pot calling the kettle black. No one is more knee-jerk in their reactions than the NRA--they're the canonical example of a group that would oppose legislation they actually favour for fear that if it went through it might lead to legislation they oppose. To make as though gun control advocates are the only one staking an exaggerated position is outlandish.


 It certainly is not.....I have found very few 'gun restriction' advocates who, in their heart, don't really seek complete abolition.......incrementalism is a tool, a means to an end.

As to the NRA, it has been the STAUNCHEST advocates of gun laws that actually WORK....PUT CRIMINALS IN PRISON WHO USE GUNS!  

But yes, you're right......attacking the NRA is timely and trendy.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 18, 2009)

grydth said:


> The two groups can work together to pass common sense legislation - witness the NRA and Senator Schumer agreeing on legislation to keep guns out of the hands of maniacs just after the Virginia Tech massacre.
> 
> Nothing gets done when the nation is completely polarized, as it was during the Bush-Clinton era. I recall Bill Clinton describing, wrongly as it turned out, his 1994 gun legislation as 'the camel's nose getting under the tent' - with rhetoric like that, it is understandable that the NRA would take the positions it has.


 "*I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!*" -Barry Goldwater


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 18, 2009)

tellner said:


> Not exactly. What we had was an "explosion" of teen births in the places where there was abstinence-only sex education. Comprehensive sex education reduces teen pregnancy. So does the availability of birth control. "Just don't do it" doesn't increase the age of first intercourse or out-of-wedlock sex. It just increases the chances of STD and pregnancy when it does happen.
> 
> 
> But ignorance will make us safer? Not on this planet.


 Of course there's also been a commensurate 'explosion' of teen births in places where there was other sex education.

Let me remind you that the LARGEST unwed teen pregnancy problem is among black American teens, who have been under a BARRAGE of 'Use condoms and birth control' messages for decades now.......oh, and likewise STD and HIV rates.

The issue with teen sex and pregnancy is not really one of education......it's a sign of a larger cultural issue that neither abstinence education, or 'safer sex' will remotely deal with.




Not to say I disagree with your ultimate message, that ignorance does not make anyone safer....I agree wholeheartedly.....merely that the issue of teen sex is not a perfect example to deal with......as it's ultimately more complicated than that.


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