# Fundamental differences in Chi Sao



## Eric_H (Aug 16, 2011)

Hello All,

Recently I went to my first ever Chi Sao competition, and in the first few moments the head judge stood up and said "Chi Sao is not for fighting."

Hearing that nearly gave me an aneurysm. 

It made me realize though, that there are a large number of practitioners who approach Chi Sao totally differently than the way my KF family does. For us it is a direct conditioned response to an attack or how to handle a challenge to your attack. We look to hit - it is up to the other guy to stick to us. If they don't stick, we don't stop hitting. On the other side, to diffuse and incoming attack, we will stick, but only momentarily to gain leverage and control, then it's on to hitting. Everything we do is mapped 100% to actual combat response, *for us Chi Sao is for fighting*.

How do you guys approach it?


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## mook jong man (Aug 16, 2011)

That head judge is an idiot , of course chi Sau is for fighting.If people were kind enough to let us hit them , then there would be no need for chi Sau.But funnily enough people don't take too kindly to being punched in the face multiple times , so they will try and resist by blocking , guarding or some other form of resistance to stop them getting their face battered in.Amongst many other functions, chi Sau teaches you the quickest way to flow around this resistance or move it out of the way so we can continue on our merry way of smashing faces in.


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## geezer (Aug 16, 2011)

I agree that Chi-Sau is_ for_ fighting, but it _isn't_ the same as fighting. As far as how it's done in the group I belong too.... well we do it different ways. Sometimes with light pressure concentrating on flow, structure and footwork, sometimes focusing on specific sequences to develop particular skills or overcome certain deficiencies, and sometimes fast, free, and aggressively as a form of sparring, but starting from the classic tan-bong rolling motion. 

Regardless, I say it isn't the same as fighting because first of all, you are starting from a roll, with your arms "sticking" together. Most fighters won't be engaging from _that_ position. Secondly, since both contenders are WC people, the sparring that takes place will not be a typical fight compared to what you would encounter with, say a boxer, MT fighter, or what have you. Still, as I said before, I agree that this kind of training is definitely_ for_ fighting... and can be _a form_ of fighting.

Now I just wish I hadn't lost my main training partner, leaving me with little regular opportunity to practice Chi-Sau as our group does it. Alas.


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## naneek (Aug 17, 2011)

the way i see it everything we do is for fighting to some extent including chi sao.


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## hpclub1000 (Aug 17, 2011)

Chi Sau is not fighting.  It's an exercise to help develop certain motor skills and responses. It also depends what you want to get out of your chi sau session. You might approach a Chi Sau session wanting to work on a particular aspect rather than just Gor Sau.  

If you want to fight then why don't you spar?


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## mograph (Aug 17, 2011)

It may have been a language issue -- even native speakers can't get English quite right sometimes. 
He may have _meant_ to say "chi sao is not fighting".


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## Colibri (Aug 17, 2011)

hpclub1000 said:


> Chi Sau is not fighting.  It's an exercise to help develop certain motor skills and responses. It also depends what you want to get out of your chi sau session. You might approach a Chi Sau session wanting to work on a particular aspect rather than just Gor Sau.
> 
> If you want to fight then why don't you spar?





Motor skills and responses to what? Chi Sao is for fighting, which ever lineage or way you look at it - you develop your motor skills and responses against an opponent who is in close range, the chi sao range. It does have use apart for training the close range (sensitivity, footwork, etc.) but those can also be used in fighting. Chi Sao is the key to close range WC, especially against someone who isn't a chunner.


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## hpclub1000 (Aug 17, 2011)

Colibri said:


> Motor skills and responses to what? Chi Sao is for fighting, which ever lineage or way you look at it - you develop your motor skills and responses against an opponent who is in close range, the chi sao range. It does have use apart for training the close range (sensitivity, footwork, etc.) but those can also be used in fighting. Chi Sao is the key to close range WC, especially against someone who isn't a chunner.



Motor Skills and responses to different energies that you encounter during your chi sau session.  Enabling manipulation of structure and control of your opponant.

Of course thoses skills can be later used in fighting.  If you chi sau with the mindset that its a fight then someone wants to win.  Its not about that at all.


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## mook jong man (Aug 17, 2011)

Get someone to throw a very fast flurry of tight four corner punches at you , and the way you react as you get his arms under control so you can strike through will look very similar to chi sau except you will be using two tan/bongs instead of the fook sau.


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## WC_lun (Aug 17, 2011)

Chi sau is training tactile sensations to read, control, and react to an opponent.  If you are using it like most tournament competitions then you aren't using it correctly _for fighting purposes_.  When contact is made, you read the opponent's energy, when he retreats you follow while keeping yourself covered, and you attack (not necessarily a strike) with structure upsetting his balance causing him to slip into a recovery mode.  The looping I see most of the time when someone is referring to chi sau is for training only and not what a properly trained Wing Chun person should be doing if fighting.  This is what I think the main judge might have meant.


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## Colibri (Aug 17, 2011)

hpclub1000 said:


> Motor Skills and responses to different energies that you encounter during your chi sau session.  Enabling manipulation of structure and control of your opponant.
> 
> Of course thoses skills can be later used in fighting.  If you chi sau with the mindset that its a fight then someone wants to win.  Its not about that at all.



Aaah, I get ya now  I thought you were implying that chi sao doesn't have a place in a fight. I understand you now, that last line is a great point


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## Jade Dragon Alaska (Aug 17, 2011)

Re: Fundamental differences in Chi Sao 

"I agree that Chi-Sau is for fighting, but it isn't the same as fighting. As far as how it's done in the group I belong too.... well we do it different ways. Sometimes with light pressure concentrating on flow, structure and footwork, sometimes focusing on specific sequences to develop particular skills or overcome certain deficiencies, and sometimes fast, free, and aggressively as a form of sparring, but starting from the classic tan-bong rolling motion. "

This description is closet to what I practice; but although similar to Wing Chun, is not identical. 

I have studied some Jeet Keen Do, and been shown a little Classical Wing Chun, and do a very martial form of Tai Chi Push Hands.  

What I learned and practice is from studying under the Wide Circle of Kung Fu of the late Grandmaster Joseph Greenstein (The Might Atom); which has roots in Northern Shaolin and White Crane.  

In this method of Chi Sau, covers or the dynamic strike-block of BeiShaolin (Northern) is used.  There mare more than one form of energy used for 'sticking hand'.  The Chi Sau is normally practiced non-competitively so one can watch their own energy, the opponents, and the center of the Chi between them.  

Because of the Shaolin Buddhist meditative origins; we have physical, non-physical and unphsical forms of Cahi Sau; as well as combinations of the aforementioned.  

This should make things as clear as mud (hah hah).

I see said the blind man to the deaf man.
What did he see, a saw?


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## Eric_H (Aug 17, 2011)

mograph said:


> It may have been a language issue -- even native speakers can't get English quite right sometimes.
> He may have _meant_ to say "chi sao is not fighting".



He was a white dude from the USA, I don't think it was a language issue


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## mook jong man (Aug 17, 2011)

It really depends on what your idea of chi sau is , to me it includes everything from gentle slow rolling to work on refinement.Or it can be fast and furious chi sau sparring with a lot of hitting and trapping , or even transitioning in and out of contact range with one person breaking off and throwing boxing type punches , roundhouse kicks to the head etc or tackles , depends on what we are working on at the time.It is all chi Sau to me.If you want to learn to make your chi sau directly applicable to self defence then get your partner to attack you with two arms at once from different angles and trajectories , then tell me it is not chi sau that you are using to control him.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 17, 2011)

FWIW IMO--Chi Sao is an elaborate subject-but chi sao and wing chun are intimately connected. This means that different people and lineages will do things differently in the details of chi sao.
So in competitions the judges have to agree on the rules. People from different lineages doing chi sao still have to agree on key things that are acceptable or not acceptable or a real fight can break out..
Within a lineage chi sao can be a lab where one tests all the things that are being taught and learned.
Chi sao is not fighting but it's an important step towards fighting. Depending on your POV- chi sao could include..different kinds of single chi sao, double handed chi sao, lop sao, gor sao, lat sao,
ma bo chi sao, and more. Chi sao varies widely from lineage to lineage in it's details. But without chi sao wing chun is incomplete.
joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Aug 17, 2011)

A chi sau competition sounds very odd to me , and like Joy alluded to, a real fight could start very easily. How is it judged when strikes are so fast and say a sequence of traps and counter traps are executed in a few seconds , how is it that the judges can follow the action?On a side note if anyone ever says they just want to do some "Gentle rolling" don't believe it , be ready for anything.Many years ago just after I finished teaching a Sunday morning class and about to lock up , a Chinese guy comes in with his young son and says could he just do a bit of rolling with me. I agreed so we are rolling away , this guy was about a foot taller than me , and suddenly he starts trying to trap me and Fak Sau me in the throat continuously.Lucky for me , his stance was crap and his trapping was even crappier , so I moved forward and uprooted him out of his stance and pushed him out the door and told him to GTFO.He took his son and left without saying a word , I reckoned he probably thought he was going to show his son how he could beat up this gweilo , but on this day his substandard trapping was not enough to counter my correct rolling.So with unknown people who just want to do a bit of "relaxed rolling" be switched on and ready for anything.


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## hpclub1000 (Aug 18, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> A chi sau competition sounds very odd to me , and like Joy alluded to, a real fight could start very easily. How is it judged when strikes are so fast and say a sequence of traps and counter traps are executed in a few seconds , how is it that the judges can follow the action?On a side note if anyone ever says they just want to do some "Gentle rolling" don't believe it , be ready for anything.Many years ago just after I finished teaching a Sunday morning class and about to lock up , a Chinese guy comes in with his young son and says could he just do a bit of rolling with me. I agreed so we are rolling away , this guy was about a foot taller than me , and suddenly he starts trying to trap me and Fak Sau me in the throat continuously.Lucky for me , his stance was crap and his trapping was even crappier , so I moved forward and uprooted him out of his stance and pushed him out the door and told him to GTFO.He took his son and left without saying a word , I reckoned he probably thought he was going to show his son how he could beat up this gweilo , but on this day his substandard trapping was not enough to counter my correct rolling.So with unknown people who just want to do a bit of "relaxed rolling" be switched on and ready for anything.



Good story MYJ

I am always cautious when I first link arms with people in chi sau just in case they try and sneak that cheap shot punch in really fast. Im expecially cautious linking up with new people and I never, ever show my cards by attacking too soon. I bide my time and exercise restraint. I learn all I can in the first few minutes...let the other person show their hand first then boom bang bish bosh lol


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## Vajramusti (Aug 18, 2011)

hpclub1000 said:


> Good story MYJ
> 
> I am always cautious when I first link arms with people in chi sau just in case they try and sneak that cheap shot punch in really fast. Im expecially cautious linking up with new people and I never, ever show my cards by attacking too soon. I bide my time and exercise restraint. I learn all I can in the first few minutes...let the other person show their hand first then boom bang bish bosh lol




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IMO - it's important to learn self control over ones motions. Muscling in chi sao does not teach much other than tasting hits.

joy chaudhuri


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## Eric_H (Aug 18, 2011)

hpclub1000 said:


> Good story MYJ
> 
> I am always cautious when I first link arms with people in chi sau just in case they try and sneak that cheap shot punch in really fast.



That's a good way to approach it, My Sifu has always instilled that from the moment you already look at the guy, you need to be prepared for everything. If we touch hands with someone and they're not immediately ready we usually go straight in - probably much like the sucker punchers your describe  We do it more to get in tune with the "game on" type of attitude rather than relaxed "Gentlemen's agreement" kind of chi sao.


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## Domino (Aug 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> That head judge is an idiot , of course chi Sau is for fighting.If people were kind enough to let us hit them , then there would be no need for chi Sau.But funnily enough people don't take too kindly to being punched in the face multiple times , so they will try and resist by blocking , guarding or some other form of resistance to stop them getting their face battered in.Amongst many other functions, chi Sau teaches you the quickest way to flow around this resistance or move it out of the way so we can continue on our merry way of smashing faces in.



hahaha excellent, I nearly choked on my lasagne !!


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