# Where Does Taekwondo End, and Gymnastics Begin?



## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 8, 2013)

The attached video has some skilled kickers.  For you, where is the line between TKD and gymnastics?

For me, I would call the kicking in the early part of the video TKD, but once the backflips start, I would call it gymnastics.

So for me, when the last guy on the video does a fighting stance after a running handspring and backflip, it just seems inconsistent.

The athletes on the video are impressive though


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 8, 2013)

I don't think there *is* a line between the two. I think there is Taekwondo, there is gymnastics, and there is a rather large area over overlap in between.
Most of that video lies firmly in the overlap.


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## Takai (Nov 8, 2013)

It takes skill and athletic prowess to accomplish that movement but, it seems more applicable to showmanship and demo work.


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## IcemanSK (Nov 8, 2013)

The group in the video is a TKD demo team, MTeam. They perform very flashy demos all over the U.S. Many members of the team are also members of the U.S. Poomsae team. They are martial artists first. And there are only a few team members that do the flips that you see in this video. This group is a solid group of Taekwondo folks, some of whom do a few flips.


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## Rumy73 (Nov 8, 2013)

It is called gymkata.  The athleticism is amazing, but it misses the point of quiet humility for a martial artist.


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## Takai (Nov 8, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> It is called gymkata.  The athleticism is amazing, but it misses the point of quiet humility for a martial artist.



Quiet humility? So, they can't promote their art through skill demonstration? Marketing isn't allowed? I think you might have missed the point.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 8, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> It is called gymkata.


I'm old - I remember that movie! (It's from 1985 once I googled it).


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## ACJ (Nov 9, 2013)

You're well underselling gymnasts with that comparison. Good gymnasts are ridiculously strong, skilled people; a few jumps and spins does not make a gymnast.


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## terryl965 (Nov 9, 2013)

Team M is very talented, they brought back five madals from the world poomsae championships. Gymnastics is hard and alot of hours to get there, mixing the two only brings out how athletic these folks are.


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 9, 2013)

The standing back flip kick is actually a Taekwon-Do kick (Tumbling Kick, though I can't recall the Korean terminology off hand). Once you add in all the back handsprings before it though, you're into gymnastics territory. 

I will say, I am of two minds about a lot of the flying spinning kicks that are more than 360 degrees (and, honestly, a lot of the claimants to 540, 720, etc. degrees don't count anyway, IMNSHO, because some of the turning is done on the ground, but anyway...). I'd love to be able to do more than a 360 in the air but doubt if I'll ever get there. Not least of which is because I don't practice more than 360 degree kicks, but still  KKW/WTF Taekwondo can speak for itself but according to Gen. Choi's encyclopedia there aren't any kicks that are performed with a rotation of more than 360 degrees so the question for me is, would those kicks be Taekwon-Do in the first place? Maybe. Depends on who you ask and how you quantify techniques, I suppose. 

Pax,

Chris


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## MSUTKD (Nov 9, 2013)

There are those that can and those that do not even try; M-Team CAN.  I believe that any Taekwondo practitioner that is not actively engaged in developing their skill to the highest level should just quit the art and do something easier.  When I watch M-Team I am inspired and work harder to develop my weaknesses; thanks M-Team.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 9, 2013)

MSUTKD said:


> I believe that any Taekwondo practitioner that is not actively engaged in developing their skill to the highest level should just quit the art and do something easier. .


That's a little extreme for me.  Can't someone do something they enjoy, for enjoyment? Should the person take up jogging, for example, instead? If so, wouldn't someone competitive in running say that the person should quit jogging unless he is actively working on a race time?


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## Tames D (Nov 9, 2013)

Very interesting to watch, and these guys are very athletic without a doubt. But I think a good street fighter would have a field day with someone attacking them in this manner. I guess I'm just old school. I still think Martial Arts should be 'Martial' Arts.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 9, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Very interesting to watch, and these guys are very athletic without a doubt. But I think a good street fighter would have a field day with someone attacking them in this manner. I guess I'm just old school. I still think Martial Arts should be 'Martial' Arts.


I dont think these guys would attack anyone in this manner, its just a demonstration of their skills.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 10, 2013)

MSUTKD said:


> There are those that can and those that do not even try; M-Team CAN.  I believe that any Taekwondo practitioner that is not actively engaged in developing their skill to the highest level should just quit the art and do something easier.  When I watch M-Team I am inspired and work harder to develop my weaknesses; thanks M-Team.



Developing ones skill to the highest level does not necessarily mean they have to do extreme acrobatics, it all depends upon what skills you find important. Personally I prefer to develop practical skills I can use to defend myself rather than acrobatic maneuvers.


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## DennisBreene (Nov 10, 2013)

MSUTKD said:


> There are those that can and those that do not even try; M-Team CAN.  I believe that any Taekwondo practitioner that is not actively engaged in developing their skill to the highest level should just quit the art and do something easier.  When I watch M-Team I am inspired and work harder to develop my weaknesses; thanks M-Team.



Not every boxer aspires to be Muhammad Ali, nor painter Picasso.  While the performance art aspect of these demos is entertaining and has it's place, it is somewhat presumptuous  to expect that every dedicated practitioner is solely devoted to this one aspect of life. There is plenty of room in martial arts for individually paced growth and achievement.


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## StudentCarl (Nov 10, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> Not every boxer aspires to be Muhammad Ali, nor painter Picasso.  While the performance art aspect of these demos is entertaining and has it's place, it is somewhat presumptuous  to expect that every dedicated practitioner is solely devoted to this one aspect of life. There is plenty of room in martial arts for individually paced growth and achievement.



I don't think MSUTKD was suggesting 'sole devotion to this one aspect of life' so much as that challenging your limits is an essential part of the martial spirit and important to continued growth. Otherwise our art could be limited to Taegeuk Il Jang.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## msmitht (Nov 10, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> It is called gymkata.  The athleticism is amazing, but it misses the point of quiet humility for a martial artist.



Lol. This is a demo team. They are supposed to be doing those things.


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## msmitht (Nov 10, 2013)

Wow. Lots of haters. I wonder why? Is the skill level too high? Can the people on this forum not tell the difference between a demo and martial arts? Jealousy?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 10, 2013)

msmitht said:


> Can the people on this forum not tell the difference between a demo and martial arts?


I know what you mean, but playing the devil's advocate, shouldn't a TKD demo DEMONSTRATE TKD? Imagine there were nunchuks, and the person threw them in the air, did some cartwheels and flips - that would be like baton twirling.  So when does TKD end and gymnastics (or baton twirling) begin?





 in this video.


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## Tames D (Nov 10, 2013)

msmitht said:


> Wow. Lots of haters. I wonder why? Is the skill level too high? Can the people on this forum not tell the difference between a demo and martial arts? Jealousy?



I don't feel hatred or jealousy. I would have to care in order to feel these emotions. I just don't agree with the way they are  promoting a supposed fighting art.


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## msmitht (Nov 10, 2013)

They are a demo team. I have watched them many times. They include poomsae, basics, sparring and self defense in their demos. They are supposed to peak the interest of those watching and get them excited about tkd. In today's society that is not an easy thing to do. 
Should they do 2 poomsae, self defense and talk philosophy? Half the audience would walk out. How about they get some overweight, out of shape black belts to do some hip high kicks and pull a muscle while attempting a wrist throw? Or maybe get a "pressure point" knock out expert to bs the crowd and then touch a whelp 3 times and he faints.


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## msmitht (Nov 10, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I know what you mean, but playing the devil's advocate, shouldn't a TKD demo DEMONSTRATE TKD? Imagine there were nunchuks, and the person threw them in the air, did some cartwheels and flips - that would be like baton twirling.  So when does TKD end and gymnastics (or baton twirling) begin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If you ever saw their whole demo you would feel differently. Comparison with baton twirler silly but both will get the audiences attention.


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## msmitht (Nov 10, 2013)

Looks like they have skill to me.


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## Tames D (Nov 10, 2013)

No one said they don't have skill. But their style of "fighting" is not for me.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 10, 2013)

msmitht said:


> If you ever saw their whole demo you would feel differently. Comparison with baton twirler silly but both will get the audiences attention.


I wouldn't say silly.  I was coming back to the question: how far out into acrobatics and performance does TKD reach, before it becomes something else -  gymnastics, or in a hypothetical case with throwing nunchuks in the air, baton twirling.  So how far out does TKD extend to you? Where do you say that it is no longer TKD?


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## Mauthos (Nov 11, 2013)

I have to admit that of late with more and more TKD teams performing these types of demonstrations, even though there is a lot of stuff in there that on the surface would be considered the domain of gymnasts I have begun to associate these performances as TKD.  So in answer to your question I don't think there is a clear cut between the two anymore.

With my personal opinion I would not spend the time learning those types of flips and spins etc as I prefer to try and hone my skills for actual self defence or combat situations where I think this flips and huge spinning kicks are not necessarily useful.  Although, I can also admit that I am jealous of that skill and I would love it if I could move like half of those guys do, but my martial path took a different route.  Oh well.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 12, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Very interesting to watch, and these guys are very athletic without a doubt. But I think a good street fighter would have a field day with someone attacking them in this manner. I guess I'm just old school. I still think Martial Arts should be 'Martial' Arts.



It's been a very long time, but I seem to remember some kicks when I studied TKD, that were multiple kicks, that were designed to look as if the first was intended to strike, but was really a feint.  The opponent, not used to that kick, would avoid the first, and expecting the kicker to be off balance and over extended, would then quickly move in, running into the second kick.  Not what you do with every attack, but a useful tool given the right opportunity.  



ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont think these guys would attack anyone in this manner, its just a demonstration of their skills.



I agree that would not be a normal for an attack.  But using only the first part of the kick with good, but not apparent control a couple of times, might well set up an opponent for a devastating 2nd kick.

All the above said, I think most of us would expect to find quickly delivered low kicks to best serve in a fight, or even friendly sparring.


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## miguksaram (Nov 13, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> It is called gymkata.  The athleticism is amazing, but it misses the point of quiet humility for a martial artist.


How?  They are practicing inside their own school?  Are you saying that if they were doing traditional poomsae, then this video would be ok or if they were just kicking paddles with regular round kicks or spin kicks then they are practicing quiet humility?  I really don't understand how humility comes into play at all in this.


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## miguksaram (Nov 13, 2013)

Tames D said:


> No one said they don't have skill. But their style of "fighting" is not for me.


But you have not seen their style of fighting.  All you have seen is their style of demo.  It is a safe bet that they know better than to try and throw a 540 jack knife kick in a an actual combat situation.  But ask yourself this, if they can produce enough speed and power to throw some of these more fancier techniques, do you really think they would slack in throwing a simple spinning heel kick or a simple round kick?


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 14, 2013)

miguksaram said:


> But you have not seen their style of fighting.  All you have seen is their style of demo.  It is a safe bet that they know better than to try and throw a 540 jack knife kick in a an actual combat situation.  But ask yourself this, if they can produce enough speed and power to throw some of these more fancier techniques, do you really think they would slack in throwing a simple spinning heel kick or a simple round kick?


Exacty. These guys would cut you in two with a simple kick. I wouldnt mess with them. On the upside though, it would be swift. You would blink, then wake up in hospital with multiple fractures


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## Tames D (Nov 14, 2013)

miguksaram said:


> But you have not seen their style of fighting.  All you have seen is their style of demo.  It is a safe bet that they know better than to try and throw a 540 jack knife kick in a an actual combat situation.  But ask yourself this, if they can produce enough speed and power to throw some of these more fancier techniques, do you really think they would slack in throwing a simple spinning heel kick or a simple round kick?



You're right, I haven't seen their style of fighting. I'm only seeing what they are promoting. And until they show their style of fighting, I have to assume the demo is what they do. And thats not fighting in my opinion.


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## Tames D (Nov 14, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Exacty. These guys would cut you in two with a simple kick. I wouldnt mess with them. On the upside though, it would be swift. You would blink, then wake up in hospital with multiple fractures



Please, ask them to show that side of their talents. I'd love to see it. Until then, it's just gymnastics to me.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 14, 2013)

Tames D said:


> Please, ask them to show that side of their talents. I'd love to see it. Until then, it's just gymnastics to me.


This is a demo team. Watching them do front kicks to someone holding a pad will put people to sleep. Ive done enough martial arts to know that someone who can throw a lightning quick 540 kick usually has very little problems throwing a roundhouse kick to the mid section. Its like watching a weight lifter bench press their own body weight and then saying "thats all good and well, but I want to see him bench press 10kg".


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## Tames D (Nov 14, 2013)

ralphmcpherson said:


> This is a demo team. Watching them do front kicks to someone holding a pad will put people to sleep. Ive done enough martial arts to know that someone who can throw a lightning quick 540 kick usually has very little problems throwing a roundhouse kick to the mid section.



It won't put me to sleep, but I guess I'll take your word for it. Obviously we won't see it on video. They are a demo team, I get it.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 14, 2013)

Tames D said:


> It won't put me to sleep, but I guess I'll take your word for it. Obviously we won't see it on video. They are a demo team, I get it.


You have to view it more like a sports highlights reel. Type "rugby" into youtube and you will see footage of guys running a hundred metres and swan diving under the posts, big hits, chip kicks etc but watch an actual game and you see these things are the "highlights". Our club has a demo team and its put together as an extreme demo of what we "can" do. It draws big crowds, and has people on the edge of their seats but its far from replicating what an actual class looks like. And  I can assure you the guys and girls in our demo team can fight, and fight well.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 14, 2013)

miguksaram said:


> But ask yourself this, if they can produce enough speed and power to throw some of these more fancier techniques, do you really think they would slack in throwing a simple spinning heel kick or a simple round kick?



Maybe, maybe not. If they spend all that time perfecting the more spectacular and acrobatic kicks then they are spending less time on practicing the simple, more practical kicks and will thus have less power than they would have if they spent more time practicing the basic kicks and less time on the acrobatics.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 14, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Maybe, maybe not. If they spend all that time perfecting the more spectacular and acrobatic kicks then they are spending less time on practicing the simple, more practical kicks and will thus have less power than they would have if they spent more time practicing the basic  kicks and less time on the acrobatics.


The more acrobatic kicks are usually derived from simpler kicks. Someone who does thousands of tornado kicks, for example, would also throw a good roundhouse kick. Or a spinning hook kick you are still doing a hook kick. The flexibility and co ordination required for these kicks could only enhance the simpler kicks.


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## Thousand Kicks (Nov 14, 2013)

Personally I would call this style of kicking, or tricking as I've heard it called, a subset of TKD. Just as I would call olympic style TKD a subset of TKD; and poomse for that matter. None of these things individually are TKD, but collectively they represent TKD. 

Obviously these are not self defence techniques. But, they do represent an aspect of martial arts which is to push yourself to become the best you can be. The ability to perform these kicks represents hours and hours of practice. I'm sure this is not all they do.

You would also find that these practicioners are very fundamentally sound. You have no chance of performing a 540 if you can't even do a competent wheel kick or turning roundhouse kick. I have always interpreted this style as a student performing basic kicks and asking themselves how they could take it up a notch. 

It is just as much a part of TKD as anything else you would typically practice in a dojang.


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## Balrog (Nov 17, 2013)

IMNSHO, once your butt gets up over your head or you spin more than 360 degrees, it becomes gymnastics.


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## msmitht (Nov 18, 2013)

Many members of this team are or have been on USAT poomsae team.  Stop making yourself look stupid by making remarks about their demo and how it is or isn't tkd. They are very skilled and let's leave it at that. Or I could post this thread to their web site and see what they think...


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## Thousand Kicks (Nov 18, 2013)

Some of the responses in this thread remind me of something I read about Bruce Lee. When developing the style that would become known as Jeet Kun Do, Bruce Lee did not originally want to give his style a name. His reasoning was by naming a style you define what it is and what it isn't. This goes against his philosophy that a martial artist should continue to grow and gain knowledge and not get wrapped up in what is or is not Jeet Kun Do. 

I see the same thing here. Some people have a concept in their mind of what TKD is and when they see a demo team doing something they don't consider TKD they dismiss it as gymnastics or a worthless investment of time. Why can't we just acknowledge the skill it takes to perform these kicks and leave it at that?

BTW, I wonder if a gymnast would call what we see in the video gymanstics?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 18, 2013)

msmitht said:


> Many members of this team are or have been on USAT poomsae team.  Stop making yourself look stupid by making remarks about their demo and how it is or isn't tkd. They are very skilled and let's leave it at that. Or I could post this thread to their web site and see what they think...


You seem to be implying that the thread is judgemental or dismissive. I wasn't trying to be judgemental in starting the thread - I openly stated that they are talented. My personal opinion is once you get into handsprings and backflips, you are in the realm of gymnatics. If you disagree, that's fine - that's why I posted, to get the opinion of others.   If you were to post on their web site, I would be fine with that.  I would be more than happy to hear their thoughts.


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 18, 2013)

I'm not sure what this comment:



msmitht said:


> Many members of this team are or have been on USAT poomsae team.



has to do with this:



> Stop making yourself look stupid by making remarks about their demo and how it is or isn't tkd. They are very skilled and let's leave it at that. Or I could post this thread to their web site and see what they think...



The point of this thread is to differentiate Taekwon-Do from activity which is more akin to gymnastics than martial arts. The members of the team in question may be very skillful and have been members of the USAT team you mention. But those facts don't make whatever they do Taekwon-Do, ipso facto. You may want to refrain from insinuating that other people are stupid for posting their opinion in a thread asking for people's opinions if you don't see that.

Pax,

Chris


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## msmitht (Nov 18, 2013)

sorry about that, it's just that some people have trouble differentiating between a martial arts demonstration and tkd. I got frustrated and snapped a little. If you went to Korea this is what the tame demo teams look like. Many do Taekwondo dance(barfing in own mouth) in addition to flip kicks and handsprings.


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## msmitht (Nov 18, 2013)

my fiance was an elite gymnast at a gymnastics coach in her youth. She watched the video and said that the gymnastics were very poorly executed. Looked good to me.


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## Tames D (Nov 18, 2013)

msmitht said:


> my fiance was an elite gymnast at a gymnastics coach in her youth. She watched the video and said that the gymnastics were very poorly executed. Looked good to me.



Sounds like you agree it's gymnastics being promoted. I thought it was great gymnastics. Not sure about the martial arts.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 18, 2013)

msmitht said:


> my fiance was an elite gymnast ... and said that the gymnastics were very poorly executed...


To be expected in a way.  A professional cyclist would say that triathletes are not very good cyclists...it all comes down to specialization.


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## TKDTony2179 (Nov 20, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I know what you mean, but playing the devil's advocate, shouldn't a TKD demo DEMONSTRATE TKD? Imagine there were nunchuks, and the person threw them in the air, did some cartwheels and flips - that would be like baton twirling.  So when does TKD end and gymnastics (or baton twirling) begin?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought that was a minature bo staff! LOL!!! JK!!


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 20, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> I thought that was a minature bo staff! LOL!!! JK!!



Maybe it's an Escrima stick.


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## scottC (Dec 25, 2013)

I think that these "gymnastics" or acrobatic techniques are starting to become a part of tkd. Take a look at this video: 



I think ktigers are among some of the best martial arts, especially for poomse. That being said they call these acrobatics moves show tae kwon. An art specifically developed for demonstrations. I don't think there is a line between taekwondo and gymnastics. Taekwondo, while ancient is still a somewhat evolving art. While it is true that you may never use a 720 or 540 in a fight, this fact definitely does not diminish the skill necessary to perform these kicks.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

scottC said:


> I think that these "gymnastics" or acrobatic techniques are starting to become a part of tkd. Take a look at this video:
> 
> 
> 
> I think ktigers are among some of the best martial arts, especially for poomse. That being said they call these acrobatics moves show tae kwon. An art specifically developed for demonstrations. I don't think there is a line between taekwondo and gymnastics.



Exactly. They are DEMOs. They are not Taekwondo. While the line between TKD and gymnastics may be blurry in places, it definitely exists.



scottC said:


> Taekwondo, while ancient is still a somewhat evolving art.



I won't argue that TKD is still evolving; I believe it is, and this is a good thing. But ancient? That's ridiculous. TKD isn't even a hundred years old.



scottC said:


> While it is true that you may never use a 720 or 540 in a fight, this fact definitely does not diminish the skill necessary to perform these kicks.



Did you actually read the thread before you commented? I only ask because nobody in the thread has said anything of the sort. These stunts are athletic. They're fun to watch. They are a LOT of things.

But they are not Taekwondo.


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## Tames D (Dec 25, 2013)

scottC said:


> I think that these "gymnastics" or acrobatic techniques are starting to become a part of tkd. Take a look at this video:
> 
> 
> 
> I think ktigers are among some of the best martial arts, especially for poomse. That being said they call these acrobatics moves show tae kwon. An art specifically developed for demonstrations. I don't think there is a line between taekwondo and gymnastics. Taekwondo, while ancient is still a somewhat evolving art. While it is true that you may never use a 720 or 540 in a fight, this fact definitely does not diminish the skill necessary to perform these kicks.



I'm not questioning the skill level of these people, but I do question the fighting abilities. If this is taekwondo, then taekwondo is not a fighting art in my opinion. Very good athletics though, that will get you killed in a street fight.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Exactly. They are DEMOs. They are not Taekwondo. While the line between TKD and gymnastics may be blurry in places, it definitely exists.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They are tkd. You can argue otherwise and use your admin powers to shutdown those who disagree with you... But it is tkd. Your argument would be similar to saying church A is Christian and church B is not. Guess what, there are many variations on a theme. Hyber athletic, youth oriented tkd is continues to grow commercially and in the common cultural understanding of it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> They are tkd. You can argue otherwise and *use your admin powers to shutdown those who disagree with you*... But it is tkd. Your argument would be similar to saying church A is Christian and church B is not. Guess what, there are many variations on a theme. Hyber athletic, youth oriented tkd is continues to grow commercially and in the common cultural understanding of it.



The last moderator who did this was fired from the staff back in 2004 or 2005. Regardless, see TOS Section 5.3.5 if you have a concern regarding members of our staff.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> They are tkd. You can argue otherwise and use your admin powers to shutdown those who disagree with you... But it is tkd. Your argument would be similar to saying church A is Christian and church B is not. Guess what, there are many variations on a theme. Hyber athletic, youth oriented tkd is continues to grow commercially and in the common cultural understanding of it.



I'm an admin now? When did I get promoted????? :rofl:


On one side of the street sits the United Methodist Church. On the other, Temple Beth Shalom. 
Yes, I would say that one is Christian and the other is not, because in point of fact one *is* and the other...*is not*. They are both houses of worship. They are not both Christian.
Similarly, good TKD is athletic and requires a particularly skillset. The same is true of the useless but entertaining techniques being discussed. They are not both TKD.


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## TKDTony2179 (Dec 26, 2013)

They want to change the name and the stereotype of taekwondo.  They want a performance art. Well, they need to change the name all together. Like when the Chinese created Wushu a modern art. Yes I know it means martial art but most of the forms are practice as a performance art. Sanda is the only fighting part of it. They look nothing a like.  So should be this. There is a traditional sparring,  sport sparring, and a performance art. Name it something else and say it part of TKD but don't confuse the world.


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## Thousand Kicks (Dec 26, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> They want to change the name and the stereotype of taekwondo. They want a performance art. Well, they need to change the name all together. Like when the Chinese created Wushu a modern art. Yes I know it means martial art but most of the forms are practice as a performance art. Sanda is the only fighting part of it. They look nothing a like. So should be this. There is a traditional sparring, sport sparring, and a performance art. Name it something else and say it part of TKD but don't confuse the world.



I'm not sure giving it another name would clear up the issue. If it has a different name then an explanation would have to be given about what it is and where it came from and how it uses apsects of TKD but is not strictly TKD. 


I guess I don't understand the issue with calling performance style kicking TKD. What is it that the art or the practicioners stand to lose if we call this TKD? To those who have said this type of kicking is not practical and a good way to get killed in a street fight, I agree. But, if you started doing poomse in a street fight, you would probably get killed as well. As I said before, I think of TKD as many things put together; why can't this style of demo or performance just be one of the things that make up TKD?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

Thousand Kicks said:


> I'm not sure giving it another name would clear up the issue. If it has a different name then an explanation would have to be given about what it is and where it came from and how it uses apsects of TKD but is not strictly TKD.
> 
> 
> I guess I don't understand the issue with calling performance style kicking TKD. What is it that the art or the practicioners stand to lose if we call this TKD? To those who have said this type of kicking is not practical and a good way to get killed in a street fight, I agree. But, if you started doing poomse in a street fight, you would probably get killed as well. As I said before, I think of TKD as many things put together; why can't this style of demo or performance just be one of the things that make up TKD?



There are already an awful lot of people who view TKD as a sport rather than a Martial Art, and as being ineffective for self defense. Do we really want to make it seem even less useful? 
And for the record, nobody has suggested doing poomsae  in a fight, but the techniques and concepts which are imparted through poomsae training are absolutely useful in a fight. 
The same cannot be said of the 720 degree back flip triple lutz cameltoe kick.


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## TKDTony2179 (Dec 26, 2013)

Thousand Kicks said:


> I'm not sure giving it another name would clear up the issue. If it has a different name then an explanation would have to be given about what it is and where it came from and how it uses apsects of TKD but is not strictly TKD.
> 
> 
> I guess I don't understand the issue with calling performance style kicking TKD. What is it that the art or the practicioners stand to lose if we call this TKD? To those who have said this type of kicking is not practical and a good way to get killed in a street fight, I agree. But, if you started doing poomse in a street fight, you would probably get killed as well. As I said before, I think of TKD as many things put together; why can't this style of demo or performance just be one of the things that make up TKD?



True practical fighting and people that want to learn true martial arts skills to protect themselves. It will draw in the kids and families that want to do sport that will do nothing but self gratitude.  Don't get me wrong. Self improvement is part of the martial arts but not flipping around. You don't see that in other arts besides Chinese arts and TKD.  But chinese arts also focus on pure selfdefense as well. Also add hyungs do contribute to fighting but yes it is not fighting.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 26, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> True practical fighting and people that want to learn true martial arts skills to protect themselves. It will draw in the kids and families that want to do sport that will do nothing but self gratitude.  Don't get me wrong. Self improvement is part of the martial arts but not flipping around. You don't see that in other arts besides Chinese arts and TKD.  But chinese arts also focus on pure selfdefense as well. Also add hyungs do contribute to fighting but yes it is not fighting.



There is a certain degree of showmanship in a variety of martial arts. In regards to this issue, it demonstrates the divided opinions of what tkd should look like. Frankly, the majority of schools have promoted this high octane, youth-centric paradigm. When tkd decided that a child was worthy of black belt, it ruled out maturity and wisdom (sorry, folks, maybe you think your teen is mature but let us be real wisdom and maturity come with age and cannot be rushed.) Physicality is highlighted in tkd over the latter points. Young ppl are capable of it. Older ppl not so much. That is why you do not find so many adult students.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> There is a certain degree of showmanship in a variety of martial arts. In regards to this issue, it demonstrates the divided opinions of what tkd should look like. _*Frankly, the majority of schools have promoted this high octane, youth-centric paradigm. *_



I'm going to have to ask you to provide something resembling a basis other than your limited experience to support this claim. While I make no pretense of being able to speak for the entire TKD community, this certainly is not true in my area.



Rumy73 said:


> When tkd decided that a child was worthy of black belt, it ruled out maturity and wisdom



"TKD" didn't decide any such thing. There are plenty of schools and plenty of systems that do not endorse the baby black belt thing. Likewise, there are plenty of non-TKD systems and schools that *do* endorse the baby black belt thing. Maybe you'd like to rethink this and try again?



Rumy73 said:


> (sorry, folks, maybe you think your teen is mature but let us be real wisdom and maturity come with age and cannot be rushed.)



No argument there. Some people die of old age without developing either.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 27, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm going to have to ask you to provide something resembling a basis other than your limited experience to support this claim. While I make pretense of being able to speak for the entire TKD community, this certainly is not true in my area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the flaming, yet you cite me for TOS violations. Hypocritical.


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## TKDTony2179 (Dec 27, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> There is a certain degree of showmanship in a variety of martial arts. In regards to this issue, it demonstrates the divided opinions of what tkd should look like. Frankly, the majority of schools have promoted this high octane, youth-centric paradigm. When tkd decided that a child was worthy of black belt, it ruled out maturity and wisdom (sorry, folks, maybe you think your teen is mature but let us be real wisdom and maturity come with age and cannot be rushed.) Physicality is highlighted in tkd over the latter points. Young ppl are capable of it. Older ppl not so much. That is why you do not find so many adult students.



TKD in the early years promoted that everyone can learn TKD. I was 27 when I first started TKD. *many people are surprise to hear I am going on 35 next yr. Still my 360's are just as good as the young as not better. * The belt is cloth you wear on your waist given to you by your instructor or grandmaster saying you passed their requirements. No maturity in that. Just knowledge and muscle memory. 

Courtesy
Intergrity
Perservance
Self control
Indomitable spirit
These are the things we all should try to live by and kids should be learning. Also don't forget the student oath "I shall never misuse TKD.


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## TKDTony2179 (Dec 27, 2013)

The thing is there is hardly any kind of promotion of TKD as a self defense or combat art. Which is what it first started out as. Now if it keep adding things of tricking it won't be a art of practical fighting.  Joon Rhee added dance choreography to his demos back in the day. Do you think that inspired people to come learn how to protect themselves or join a martial art that teaches how to be fit and dance? I am sure people thought oh that will be fun to do dance choreographed forms.  Just like most parents think of karate as a daycare for kids. Picking up kids after school so they can run around and punching and kicking is not my style.  

It will take the people of the traditional style to start promoting more practical side of the art. Otherwise this is road we are headed down.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 27, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> The thing is there is hardly any kind of promotion of TKD as a self defense or combat art. Which is what it first started out as. Now if it keep adding things of tricking it won't be a art of practical fighting.  Joon Rhee added dance choreography to his demos back in the day. Do you think that inspired people to come learn how to protect themselves or join a martial art that teaches how to be fit and dance? I am sure people thought oh that will be fun to do dance choreographed forms.  Just like most parents think of karate as a daycare for kids. Picking up kids after school so they can run around and punching and kicking is not my style.
> 
> It will take the people of the traditional style to start promoting more practical side of the art. Otherwise this is road we are headed down.



You have point. Those interested in harder sparring styles are attracted by MMA or the like; in the case of self defense, ppl are drawn to krav maga for its practicality.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 27, 2013)

TKDTony2179 said:


> TKD in the early years promoted that everyone can learn TKD. I was 27 when I first started TKD. *many people are surprise to hear I am going on 35 next yr. Still my 360's are just as good as the young as not better. * The belt is cloth you wear on your waist given to you by your instructor or grandmaster saying you passed their requirements. No maturity in that. Just knowledge and muscle memory.
> 
> Courtesy
> Intergrity
> ...



I am not saying those values are totally absent. However, they are not typically at the forefront either. When i studied sbd, the vibe was more inner focused, character oriented. Tkd was more about a belt chase and competition/flashy moves.


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## Thousand Kicks (Dec 27, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are already an awful lot of people who view TKD as a sport rather than a Martial Art, and as being ineffective for self defense. Do we really want to make it seem even less useful?
> And for the record, nobody has suggested doing poomsae in a fight, but the techniques and concepts which are imparted through poomsae training are absolutely useful in a fight.
> The same cannot be said of the 720 degree back flip triple lutz cameltoe kick.



I will concede that most people give me the "That stuff doesn't work in real life look" they find out I study TKD. I'm not sure why TKD bears the brunt of this misconception. If a casual observer can look at Olympic style sparring and say "It's useless" Why would they look at Jui-Jitsu, where there is no striking at all, and say "Yes that is real fighting?"

I know nobody suggested doing poomsae in a fight. I was just trying to make a point that there are lots of things we learn in martial arts that we wouldn't use in self defence. If you were in a fight you wouldn't throw a punch with your other hand in a chamber position. 

HaHa cameltoe kick...that's classic


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## Thousand Kicks (Dec 27, 2013)

I would also add that promoting martial arts has been done for years. Whether it be movies, demos, magazines...whatever. I think all of us would agree that we not only want our art to survive, but thrive. These types of kicks highlight what is possible with training and focus. And, they can highlight what is unique and separates TKD from Karate or Muy Thai. 

Unfortunately, there are negative consequences for this type of exposure. People will tend to think what they see is all there is.


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## TKDTony2179 (Jan 19, 2014)

I saw this the other day and thought I would post this here. As a army I would think showing skills in a demo would be different from the counter part of a civilian martial art but seems like they perfer the same style or approach.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOztk-EidhE&feature=youtube_gdata_player


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 19, 2014)

TKDTony2179 said:


> The thing is there is hardly any kind of promotion of TKD as a self defense or combat art. Which is what it first started out as.



I know of at least one major organization that still does it that way.



TKDTony2179 said:


> It will take the people of the traditional style to start promoting more practical side of the art. Otherwise this is road we are headed down.



It is difficult for a self defence art to keep up with, in terms of advertising, with a sport martial art/combat sport. They can make money from competitions, people can pay to watch them, they can get endorsements from companies, television coverage (how popular would MMA actually be if it was never shown on TV) and grants from sports institutes etc. Self defence arts don't usually get that kind of exposure.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jan 19, 2014)

TKDTony2179 said:


> I saw this the other day and thought I would post this here. As a army I would think showing skills in a demo would be different from the counter part of a civilian martial art but seems like they perfer the same style or approach.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOztk-EidhE&feature=youtube_gdata_player


I would have thought the demo would have a different approach as well.  In particular, some of the dancing was a little too effeminate/non-military for my tastes.


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## TKDTony2179 (Jan 20, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I would have thought the demo would have a different approach as well.  In particular, some of the dancing was a little too effeminate/non-military for my tastes.



I thought the same thing. I would say that most of these guys were probaly KuKi at one time and that is what they know.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jan 20, 2014)

With mandatory military service, all the best TKD practioners end up going through, so yes, it would seem that all of these guys practiced TKD for many many years beforehand.


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## Gorilla (Sep 17, 2014)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I would have thought the demo would have a different approach as well.  In particular, some of the dancing was a little too effeminate/non-military for my tastes.



They looked like some pretty incredible athletes/martial artists to me!

Probably can defend themselves in a seedy dive bar in Korea!


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## Cho, Yeonsoo (Oct 2, 2014)

There is taekwondo, then martial arts tricking and finally gymnastics.
I think Taekwondo ends, when more than 2 kicks are thrown in the air... my personal opinion though


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