# American Kenpo and Hawaiian Kempo ?



## BallistikMike (Nov 1, 2004)

I am afraid of stiring up the pot here but there is so much knowledge here I need to ask.

Mitose - Chow - Emperado & Parker

Ed Parker did study under Chow and he had to also study with/under Emperado just by being there at the same time.

The original Kempo combinations of the East Coast Kempo 1 - 20 & 26 brought over by Gascon then passed on to Pasare came from Emperado.

Ed Parker must have known these from association with the above men during training sessions. What techniques in the American Kenpo system best represent these core 21 combinations?

or...

Is there any relationship what so ever?

I believe the amount of techniques that the Tracy's wrote down were made up on the spot by Ed Parker and the extensions and the variations also. It was formalized into a set number of techniques by various schools, but the root of the matter the very heart is it was a few core techniques that teach ALL the principals and concepts.

600 techniques means you only need maybe half a dozen core body movements and understand the releases of grabs on defense (blocking/parrying) to come up with these.

Ed Parker saw this and developed what he thought were the core techniques and principals hence you have the 120+ techniques that can be borrowed from one another to come up with 1000's of variations.

John McSweeney a student of Ed Parker has 24 base techniques that when borrowed from and added to (extensions that are made up on the spot) I range in 120+ techniques

Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux have 55 technqiues that cover about 85% - 90% of the known material (concepts & principals) but they dont give you everything until you video test. Borrowing from there techniques also comes up with 100's of variations.

Then we come to the Kajukembo, Karazenpo, Shaolin Kempo line with the original 21 or 26 or 30 or 108 techniuqes forming the core principles and concepts of the entire system. In every Kempo they do you can see a slight variation of a Combination (what they call them) or extension.

My point is with all this knowledge running around and the ease of communication (like this forum here). The truth is out there right under our noses amongst us new and old.

So back to the original question American Kenpo and Hawaiian Kempo (Shaolin/Karazenpo) what are the core similarities ? Besides lineage and rapid fire hand strikes. What are the core techniques/combinations/alphabets what ever your call it?


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## Karazenpo (Nov 2, 2004)

Hi Mike, actually the original combinations were most definitely based on the original method of Sijo Emperado's Kajukenbo but also retained the perspective of Sijo Gascon, Professor Walter L.N. Godin and Sijo's Kajukenbo instructor, Sifu John Leoning. In other words, they were somewhat modified to fit the perspective of Karazenpo as all offshoots do. However, I believe this early Kajukenbo subsystem was readily recognizeable as the original Kajukenbo and I'll tell you why. When Professor Cerio, around 1967, performed techniques in front of Master Bill Chun Sr. (Go Shinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo) in California, Master Chun stated: "That's Kajukenbo". I reference here Sifu Rob Paladeau (Kajukenbo) who recently shared this information with me from his family's close relationship with the Chuns. Now, as far as any similarites between American Kenpo and Hawaiian Kempo (Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, Shaolin Kempo Karate, etc.) Sijo Gascon and Mr. Parker were boyhood freinds in Hawaii and did work out together. Sijo Gascon also taught some classes at Mr. Parker's school in those early years. Sifu Bruce Corrigan stated once that elements of Karazenpo can be seen in American Kenpo. Now, this could have been intentional or coincidence since both systems came essentially from the same roots. I'll let you decide. Also bear in mind that Mr. Parker, Professor Cerio (2nd generation Karazenpo) and Gm. Villari (Cerio's student and founder of his Shaolin Kempo Karate) worked out together in the late 60's when Cerio was the Rhode Island state representative for the I.K.K.A. I heard this originally from Villari and it was confirmed to me directly by Cerio himself and have since been confirmed that Professor Larry Garron of Massachusetts who also attended at least one of these sessions. Mike, take a look at your Plum Tree Blocking System created by Gm. Villari. The ending,  which depicts 'the plum tree' where both hands make a motion that resembles the shape of a 'heart'. Then, take a look at Mr. Parker's book 'Infinite Insights into Kenpo', I think it's volume 5, you will see a technique used to dispatch and create an opening to escape from three attackers, one at 12 0'clock, one at 3 o'clock and one at 9 o'clock, Mr. Parker referred to it as 'the heart', look familiar? Notice too that Villari's kempo after he broke from Cerio also became heavily influenced by the Chinese Kung Fu. Coincidence ? Pararell thinking? Maybe.......... Yes, imho, all the Hawaiian derived kenpo/kempo systems share the same core and I've also come to the conclusion they also share a core with Okinawan Shorei ryu/Shuri-te Kenpo Karate. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## The Kai (Nov 2, 2004)

Prof Shuras

At the end of your post I noticed that you stated the kenpo/kajukenpo trees descended from the Okinwan Shuri-Ryu.  is this a based on historiacl evidence, or do you see similair motions between the two arts?
Todd


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## Karazenpo (Nov 2, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Prof Shuras
> 
> At the end of your post I noticed that you stated the kenpo/kajukenpo trees descended from the Okinwan Shuri-Ryu.  is this a based on historiacl evidence, or do you see similair motions between the two arts?
> Todd



Hi Todd, both reasons. Years ago I noticed strong similarites in Mitose's first book: What is Self Defense? (Kenpo Jiu Jitsu), Gm. Robert Trias' book: The Hand is My Sword (1973 edtion, 2nd printing) and Mr. Ed Parker's book (1961): Kenpo Karate- Law of the Fist and the Empty Hand with the rudiments of the system I study. I also heard and had it confirmed through Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelly that their was indeed a close relationship between Robert Trias and James Mitose back in those early Hawaiian years. Trais referred to his art originally as Shorei Ryu and later changed it to Shuri-te, that's why I wrote it that way. After speaking with Professor Jaime Abregana it is now believed Mitose did train in Hawaii with Nabura Tanamaha, a 1st or 2nd generation black belt of the Choki Motobu lineage. This makes sense because it would explain why Mitose referred to Motobu as his teacher and 'Master of Karate Kenpo' in his book, with 'teacher' probably taken 'indirectly', in other words, 'his teacher's teacher'. It too would explain why Mitose was never on Motobu's family tree, not to mention the fact he may not be on Tanamaha's either becasue I was told he did not reach black belt level. Again, this has nothing to do with any training he may of or may not have had in Japan, I'm merely discussing the 'Okinawan connection' that appears to be predominate in his art. Lastly, we had evidence all along of this Okinawan connection from Mitose's practice of the Naihanchi Shodan kata. Someone had to teach it to him.


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## The Kai (Nov 2, 2004)

It would seem Mitose only knew Nauhanchi Shodan, correct?  Not that I am doubting your post-but would that Mitose knew 1 begining Kata seem to indicate a rather short period of study?

Todd


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## Karazenpo (Nov 2, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> It would seem Mitose only knew Nauhanchi Shodan, correct?  Not that I am doubting your post-but would that Mitose knew 1 begining Kata seem to indicate a rather short period of study?
> 
> Todd



Right or one view point is that was his favorite kata. Back then you would hear that the old masters would pick one kata as their favorite and that was the one you would see them practice all the time. I believe that was also Motobu's favorite. The other viewpoint would be it was his only kata for the reason you just gave. This would explain why Professor Thomas Young, the most senior kenpo black belt (Mitose lineage) and who was entrusted by Mitose to carry on when he went to the mainland (1953) would petition Mitose in the 50's to add the 5 pinan series to expand the curriculum. Perhaps Sigung John Bishop could add more to this.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 2, 2004)

Mike, I think (and correct me if I'm wrong) you're looking for the 'original' Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. Here's how I see it. Currently, with Sijo Gascon coming out of retirement in 1994, the system, like all systems, is evolving the way he would like to see it evolve with some additions and modifications, for instance adding the 'Monkey Dances'. However, if you wish to go back to the 'original' then the closest to it that I've been exposed to other than Sijo's himself, is Rhode Island's S. George Pesare's Kaito Gakko Kenpo Karate Institute and any of the schools and/or black belts directly related or affilitated with him from the old days that are still teaching today. Next, would be those of Nick Cerio's before the development of Nick Cerio's Kenpo (a subsystem of Pesare's Karazenpo), this would bring in Gm. Fred Villari who essentially teaches Karazenpo the way Professor Cerio taught it to him up to around nidan, the last form being #6 kata, a creation of Gm. Pesare containing the original Karazenpo combinations. Hansuki was taught to Cerio by Master Bill Chun Sr. and the version practiced by the Villari people starting in 1971 was a 'Karazenpoized', lol, version of the original, great form though! Sho Tung Kwok was Villari's perspective of Karazenpo and denoted the beginings of his own system along with the Plum Tree Blocking System with its Chinese Kung Fu flavor. Cerio took with him 21 combinations from Pesare with other misc. punch, grab and weapon defenses, etc., etc. Villari took with him from what Cerio told me about 35 combinations which I find it closer to 39 (his 35 was a rounded off approx. number) with the misc. techniques for grabs, punch counters, weapon defenses and so forth. Now by 1969, Sijo Gascon was back in Hawaii in temporary retirement and teaching only a limited number of private sessions so it was these men in New England who began propagating the art. In Hawaii, Professor Walter L.N. Godin changed the name to Godin's Chinese Kenpo and he too, as Cerio did, made additions and modifications. There were other of Sijo Gascon's early students back on the west coast who also as in Rhode Island propagated Karazenpo or founded a subsystem of it. So Mike, if you're studying anything from the above you're pretty much on the money because I have the 'original' and the Villari version and it's all pretty damn close. Nick Cerio's Kenpo (1974) was definitely altered more dramatically but you can still see the Karazenpo foundation staring you in the face, an obvious subsystem. These systems contain all the essential information within it's curriculum to make anyone who is ready, willing and able a good fighter. Imho, the true magic, however, is found in the individual practicing the system rather than the system.


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## BallistikMike (Nov 2, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> It would seem Mitose only knew Nauhanchi Shodan, correct? Not that I am doubting your post-but would that Mitose knew 1 begining Kata seem to indicate a rather short period of study?
> 
> Todd


The Naihanchi Kata 1, 2 & 3 can also be practiced (studied) as one when you combine all three "sets" Was he doing it this way? How could we know?

Also the original Naihanchi Kata was just a single kata broken down into the three sets we now know to make practice and learning easier. At which point things may have been added or taken away from. Again how can we know?

As far as being a beginer kata it is only that because it was taught first. Some of the greatest okinanwan karateka only practiced naihanchi for the first 10 years! I will edit this with my sources, at work now  In this kata coupled with your basics you can find nearly every combination and hand check. Also with slight adjustmenets to foot work or maneuvering you can also see how your stances cna be added in. 

See kata isnt just about copying and perfecting the moves as they were taught, its about exploring, inserting your basics, personal ideas and not conforming to a set way but improvising. The mistake of kata is thinking its some formula set in stone. What it actualy is, is a syllabus of your basic techniques, a road map of adventure and finally a tool for self exploration in karate.

As an example if you take a traditional karate-ka, a kenpo man and a jujitsu man and teach them the naihanchi kata the exact same way for say 6 months. Then you give them an additional 18 months of self-exploration with the basics of their system. You will see three very different ways of interpting the Naihanchi kata. Now throw in the environment of the kenpo man being a street fighter, the karate-ka being a buddhist and the jujitsu man being a tournament competitor how much different do you think the kata will be then?

Could this be why we have different ways of doing kata, forms and sets ? Heck yeah! Is this why we see a known traditional okinanwan kata transform over the last 100 years into 100's if not 1000's of ways of doing it the correct way? There is NO CORRECT way other then solid basics!!! the rest is how your journey takes you.

LOL... I rant sometimes

The point being a single basic kata in your eyes may very well be so advanced you can not even perceive it because all you see is a beginner kata. Where the person doing it may have 20+ years of experience, his fighting way is the naihanchi kata, his rapid fire combinations and leg destructions flow easily in his minds eye with the 100's of thousands of reps he has done with this single "beginer" kata. The very simple combinations of 30ish in the kata can be combined, borrowed to create thousands, the kick twists and hand gestures are releases for nearly every hold known to man AND do to his countless reps he is able to pull off incredible hand speed do to muscle memory so ingrained with the basic movements the only people who can compare are the ones who have dedicated themselves perfecting the basics and not quantity of "adavnced" katas!

Well stepping off my soap box ... lol

Thankyou for this forum and everyone who responds. I learn so much. Incredible people each and everyone of you.

Sorry for my errors.


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## The Kai (Nov 2, 2004)

You are correct, I should have used the word foundational or first Kata taught to the new student.  I did not mean to imply it was a inferior Kata by any means!
However, my point was in the 5-6yeras Mitose taught it is not a lot to teach, especially my impression(right or wrong) is that it was the 1st third of the form.  I know that the stories go back to people training 10 years on a Kata, but in my opinion I don't think that that has been done in the modern age so much.  If Mitose inherited this ancient multi level art where was it?  In one kata?
Todd


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## Karazenpo (Nov 2, 2004)

Yes, Todd, it is my understanding also that Mitose knew Naihanshi Shodan. From what I can see so far, Mitose provided the rudiments, the basics and I firmly believe he was not the only one that did this in the 40's, 50's and 60's and then took the ball and ran. It was the norm in that era and it worked or we wouldn't have all the fine systems that we do today. If one has a good, strong solid foundation, have insight and are imaginative and creative, they can make anything work and from that point different systems evolved into what we now call the kenpo/kempo arts.


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## The Kai (Nov 3, 2004)

Proffessor Shuras

IMHO i find it kind of ironic that 10 15 years ago the trend was big on founding your own style, sometimes to a bad degree of 2years TKD + read the "Tao of Jeet Kune DO" and presto a Universal system of Karate.  Back in my younger days it seemed there were bound to be half a dozen Start up systems, whilst the traditionalists were on the wane.
These days lineage has become the issue, how old, from what ancient arts etc.
Todd


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## KENPOJOE (Nov 3, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I am afraid of stiring up the pot here but there is so much knowledge here I need to ask.
> 
> Mitose - Chow - Emperado & Parker
> 
> ...



Hi Mike!
To address some of your questions and comments...

Joe Emperado was senior to his brother,Adriano, up until his stabbing death in Hawaii. Mr. Parker always considered Adriano Emperado his kenpo "Senior" in regards to his training with Chow for that time period.

The karazenpo combinations were changed from the techniques of Kajukenbo and have thier own unique innovations. After seeing GM Victor "Sonny" Gascon perform the original combinations, I could see distinct elements that either influenced GM Gascon from Ed Parker or vice versa. I'll ask him next time i see him. When I saw those first combinations I was immediately surprised because:
1. they were in a numerical order, as opposed to the "puzzle" format taught in New England
2. they had dictinct movements that immediately reminded me of certain Ed Parker's American Kenpo techniques [flashing mace,leaping crane,gathering clouds]
3. they were short in duration and format.
4. they looked nothing like the techniques taught by the pesare-cerio-villari lineage.
now mind you, i saw later combinations that were undoubtedly from the p-c-v lineage,but the first ones had many unique aspects.

In regards to your opinion of the tracy formulization [sp] of the material that was taught to them by Mr. Parker, I would say that your comment has some merit. the various techniques that the tracys teach are many times nothing more than simple variations on a common technique, where by only changing a single hand strike they now count it a an entirely new technique!

Mr. Parker reformulated the system into a more comprehensive format to teach salient features of principles theories and concepts that would expand a respective martial artists ability to think, with cross references and inter-relating material and a format for logical progression.

In regards to the "extensions made up on the spot" in Mr. Mcsweeny's system, there are numerous styles of kenpo that encourage that [George Elmer's American Chinese Kenpo immediately comes to mind] because it encourages the creative thought process based on the prevailent techniques and the "rearrangement factor".

In your reference to variations on combinations or extensions of given kenpo/kempo techniques, the overall format must still be maintained so that it can be recognized as a variation on a given technique.

The similarities between hawaiian kempo and American Kenpo lie in the overall approach to the given attacks and the responses to those attacks based on the cultural influences that guide the overall approach to responding to those attacks [such as chambering to "elbow position" when on the inside of an opponent {japanese influence} as opposed to having the other hand in a "Checking" position {chinese influence}]

The "core" as you refer to it is the understanding of "sequencial flow" that seperates kenpo/kempo from some of it's Karate brothers and a logical progression of motion that accounts for the reactionary positioning of an attacker as opposed to fighting a "Stone Dummy" that will not move.

I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## John Bishop (Nov 3, 2004)

KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Mike!
> To address some of your questions and comments...
> 
> Joe Emperado was senior to his brother,Adriano, up until his stabbing death in Hawaii.
> KENPOJOE


Sorry, but that is not correct.  Joe was Sijo Emperado's "little brother".  Sijo started with William Chow in 1946, and became his first black belt.  He was a 5th degree when SGM Ed Parker started training with Prof. Chow.  
Joe Emperado went up to brown belt with Prof. Chow, and then got his black belt from his older brother.



			
				KENPOJOE said:
			
		

> Hi Mike!
> Mr. Parker always considered Adriano Emperado his kenpo "Senior" in regards to his training with Chow for that time period.
> KENPOJOE


Mr. Parker did consider Sijo Emperado his senior, because he was.  They had a very close relationship, and Sijo Emperado was the one who promoted Mr. Parker to 8th degree.


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## BallistikMike (Nov 3, 2004)

Sirs,


Thank you very much for your information. I can not thank you enough for the time you seniors put in to answer these questions.


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## Doc (Nov 4, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that is not correct.  Joe was Sijo Emperado's "little brother".  Sijo started with William Chow in 1946, and became his first black belt.  He was a 5th degree when SGM Ed Parker started training with Prof. Chow.
> Joe Emperado went up to brown belt with Prof. Chow, and then got his black belt from his older brother.
> 
> 
> Mr. Parker did consider Sijo Emperado his senior, because he was.  They had a very close relationship, and Sijo Emperado was the one who promoted Mr. Parker to 8th degree.


Thanks John, I was too tired to type.


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## Dr. Kenpo (Nov 4, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that is not correct. Joe was Sijo Emperado's "little brother". Sijo started with William Chow in 1946, and became his first black belt. He was a 5th degree when SGM Ed Parker started training with Prof. Chow.
> Joe Emperado went up to brown belt with Prof. Chow, and then got his black belt from his older brother.
> 
> 
> Mr. Parker did consider Sijo Emperado his senior, because he was. They had a very close relationship, and Sijo Emperado was the one who promoted Mr. Parker to 8th degree.


Thanks, I always wondered who promoted  SGM Parker .:asian:


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## Zoran (Nov 5, 2004)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> John McSweeney a student of Ed Parker has 24 base techniques that when borrowed from and added to (extensions that are made up on the spot) I range in 120+ techniques.


 Interesting that you would know this. Just a note, that system came into existance around late 1970's (_officially as that is when he started teaching it_). Before that, he was teaching the Parker material that he learned from the 1950's and early 1960's. So his black belts from New York and Ireland learned the Parker system. While his black belts in Chicago learned the 24 plus variations. He also removed all the forms, which was re added by Tom Saviano based on the 24.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 7, 2004)

KenpoJoe stated: In regards to your opinion of the tracy formulization [sp] of the material that was taught to them by Mr. Parker, I would say that your comment has some merit. the various techniques that the tracys teach are many times nothing more than simple variations on a common technique, where by only changing a single hand strike they now count it a an entirely new technique!

I say: Boy, you're not kidd'n! Right on the money. I had a black belt come to me from Tracy's back in the 90's. He was looking for a nidan. He told me of all these tecniques he had. When I had him perform them in a private, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Like KenpoJoe said, he would simply change the initial strike, say a horizontal fist to a vertical fist to a palm heel to a leopard's paw, etc. counting each simple change a different technique!


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## Karazenpo (Nov 7, 2004)

KenpoJoe stated: they looked nothing like the techniques taught by the pesare-cerio-villari lineage.
now mind you, i saw later combinations that were undoubtedly from the p-c-v lineage,but the first ones had many unique aspects.

I say: Interesting, KenpoJoe. I had based my viewpoint on what Gm. Pesare taught Cerio in the 60's and myself in the 70's and then viewing Pesare's video tape circa. 1960. Now, Professor Cerio also showed me a tape filmed in Bill Ryusaki's backyard, again, circa. 1960 of Karazenpo. In both these films the combinations and forms were very, very close to the Pesare/Cerio/Villari lineage, very close with the forms being the same as Gm. Pesare's! I will make it a point to see these early techniques of Sijo Gascon the next time I'm with him. Yes, you are right about the straight order over the puzzle. It makes teaching the curriculum and learning it so much easier that way. Grandmaster Pesare always taught them in order so it had to be either Cerio of Villari that changed them, I think Cerio. Do you know? Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## Karazenpo (Nov 7, 2004)

KenpoJoe stated:The karazenpo combinations were changed from the techniques of Kajukenbo and have thier own unique innovations. After seeing GM Victor "Sonny" Gascon perform the original combinations, I could see distinct elements that either influenced GM Gascon from Ed Parker or vice versa. I'll ask him next time i see him. 

I say: Good point. I always said that even though one in the know (like Master Bill Chun Sr. when he first say Cerio perform in 1967) could tell by looking at Karazenpo Shaolin Kempo that it was Kajukenbo, it was still dramatically altered as to stand on its own as a unique 'subsystem'. Cerio did something similiar with his Nick Cerio's Kenpo, however, in my opinion, it's much clearer of NCK's connection to KGS. Another good point is the connection between Gascon and Parker. We've been told in the past that they were boyhood friends, trained together at times and that the early Karazenpo had some influence on American Kenpo or perhaps, it just the original Mitose Kenpo that is the common thread between these arts. After all, back then (1946-1961), all this Hawaiian-derived kenpo was pretty close to what Chow came away with from the Mitose school with some modification but not really all that much. Joe, could you please elaborate more on some of these early techniques? Thanks, Joe


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## Doc (Nov 7, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> KenpoJoe stated: In regards to your opinion of the tracy formulization [sp] of the material that was taught to them by Mr. Parker, I would say that your comment has some merit. the various techniques that the tracys teach are many times nothing more than simple variations on a common technique, where by only changing a single hand strike they now count it a an entirely new technique!
> 
> I say: Boy, you're not kidd'n! Right on the money. I had a black belt come to me from Tracy's back in the 90's. He was looking for a nidan. He told me of all these tecniques he had. When I had him perform them in a private, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Like KenpoJoe said, he would simply change the initial strike, say a horizontal fist to a vertical fist to a palm heel to a leopard's paw, etc. counting each simple change a different technique!



That was a result of Al Tracy's propaganda claim that Parker had "stripped" the system and that "He" offered more than 600 techniques. Of course counting every small variable as a singular technique could get you into the thousands. While there was some truth to the "material left out" claim, Al was even more guilty in his simplistic super commercial approach. Of course as a result, he became the most successful in sheer number of schools at the time.


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## KenpoDave (Nov 9, 2004)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> KenpoJoe stated: In regards to your opinion of the tracy formulization [sp] of the material that was taught to them by Mr. Parker, I would say that your comment has some merit. the various techniques that the tracys teach are many times nothing more than simple variations on a common technique, where by only changing a single hand strike they now count it a an entirely new technique!
> 
> I say: Boy, you're not kidd'n! Right on the money. I had a black belt come to me from Tracy's back in the 90's. He was looking for a nidan. He told me of all these tecniques he had. When I had him perform them in a private, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Like KenpoJoe said, he would simply change the initial strike, say a horizontal fist to a vertical fist to a palm heel to a leopard's paw, etc. counting each simple change a different technique!



Interesting.  Most of us in the Tracy System consider them just that, variations of the same technique.  They are often given separate names in order to distinguish them within the curriculum.

Typically, though, people who go outside the system looking for rank are those who wouldn't put in the time within the system and are looking for an easy way.  I don't judge EPAKK by the EPAKK students that have come to me after quitting their old schools.  It wouldn't be fair to judge the system by those who quit it.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 10, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Interesting.  Most of us in the Tracy System consider them just that, variations of the same technique.  They are often given separate names in order to distinguish them within the curriculum.
> 
> Typically, though, people who go outside the system looking for rank are those who wouldn't put in the time within the system and are looking for an easy way.  I don't judge EPAKK by the EPAKK students that have come to me after quitting their old schools.  It wouldn't be fair to judge the system by those who quit it.



I understand what you're saying Dave and agree. This was, however, my first contact with anyone from the Tracy system back then. After a lesson or two he asked for his nidan! Can you believe that? To be perfectly honest, I wasn't comfortable at all with his shodan. This is by far no knock at all to the Tracy system of schools, for believe me, I know there are good and bad in all chains. He produced a certificate for shodan from a Tracy 'break away' school that didn't last too long so who knows what their 'quality control' was. Anyway, he pushed the issue of his nidan and I had to outright tell him that I was uncomfortable with his shodan. I knew the guy a little and didn't want to hurt his feelings but he left me no choice in his persistance. To be honest, I had purple and blue belts who could run circles around him. This is not meant to 'toot my own horn' but I'm just expressing how poorly trained he was. Needless to say, he quit. About 6 months later my wife sees him at a tournament sporting a 'nidan' ranking. Go figure..........


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## Seig (Nov 10, 2004)

I'm a little more brutal. Anyone that asks me for rank is told no. 

As I recently told a group of my students, I don't give rank, you have to take it.


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## DavidCC (Nov 11, 2004)

What happened to Prof. Cerio's tapes after he passed?  I would be very interested in seeing that old material... 


and at our school, asking for a promotion is the best way to prevent one from happening.


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## Karazenpo (Nov 11, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> I'm a little more brutal. Anyone that asks me for rank is told no.
> 
> As I recently told a group of my students, I don't give rank, you have to take it.



Oh, he was most definitely told NO but at first I just tried to let him down more easily because I knew him and got along with him. Some of us 'old timers' mellow a little bit with age when it comes to diplomacy. Years ago I probably would have told him immediately: " There's the door and Main St. goes east and west'! (a line I did use in the past,lol)


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## Karazenpo (Nov 11, 2004)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> What happened to Prof. Cerio's tapes after he passed?  I would be very interested in seeing that old material...
> 
> 
> and at our school, asking for a promotion is the best way to prevent one from happening.



Yeah Dave, our policy (written) not to ever ask when you're going up for rank or ask to go up for rank period and that includes the parents. For example (with parents who ask): I could have already decided to put their kid up for rank. Then they ask me. Now, I'm put in the position of delaying that student's promotion due to the fact it would give the appearance of the parents 'influencing'  or worse 'controlling' the ranking system. This is all explained at the outset but you seem to always get one, lol.

Dave, I'll have to ask Hanshi Craig Seavey what happened to the tapes Professor Cerio had. I think his brother Frank had custody of them but Frank recently passed away. I'll check.


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