# okinawa vs japanese



## Manny (Oct 24, 2012)

Maybe an old tread but just saw a documental about a kyokushing with male who gets back to japan afther so many years and then he travels to okinawa to learn something about karate. In this clip the grand masters of okinawa told the guy that they do not teach karate as an sport way but mostly as a enhancement for the spirutu, mind and body and they do not using it for fight just for self life preservation.

In this video tha okinawan dojos tend to: 1.-focus on kata and 2.-focus on physical developement.

Well, maybe you can tell me more about the diferences beetwen japanese karate and okinawa karate, technicaly, and dome other aspects please.

Manny


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## dancingalone (Oct 24, 2012)

Manny said:


> Well, maybe you can tell me more about the diferences beetwen japanese karate and okinawa karate, technicaly, and dome other aspects please.
> 
> Manny



Too broad of a topic to do more than give overly simplified generalizations which I believe has been done before.  (Search the archives.)

If you have a specific question about something I'm sure any number of people in their styles can tell you why they do it in such and such way.


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## Omar B (Oct 24, 2012)

Very true.  There are no hard and fast rules when it comes to Karate.  It's easier to follow similarities in coaching trees rather than locale.


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## Manny (Oct 24, 2012)

Ok lets star. 1.-stances, 2.-kicks/kicking. 3.-Linear vs circular motions.

Manny


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## seasoned (Oct 24, 2012)

Manny said:


> Ok lets star.



[quote 1.-stances [/Quote] 

Close in, Mainly Sanchin.





> 2.-kicks/kicking.



Low, hands waist up, feet waist down. 





> 3.-Linear vs circular motions.



Static movement vs Continuous movement. 

Some arts are sport made into self defense, others are self defense oriented toward sport at times.


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## dancingalone (Oct 24, 2012)

Manny said:


> Ok lets star. 1.-stances, 2.-kicks/kicking. 3.-Linear vs circular motions.
> 
> Manny




What about these things do you want to know?  The same discrete techniques including stances, kicks, and movement are more shared across karate systems than not if we were to bother to catalog them.  This is true even when comparing a style like Uechi-ryu which is kind of on its own island.

I think you understand from previous discussions, Manny, that you're asking for a very broad comparison.  One so general that it is actually not useful in my opinion and worse might actually serve to mislead rather than inform.

So, as I understand the boards are rather boring right now, is there a more specific topic you want to talk about?  I'm certainly game if we can focus our direction more.


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## arnisador (Oct 24, 2012)

It's tough to generalize, but Karate originated in Okinawa with a strong base in Southern Chinese Kung Fu, then traveled to Japan about 80 or so years ago. Okinawan Karate styles tends to use higher and more forward-facing stances, use fewer and lower kicks, place relatively greater emphasis on open-fist techniques, have more circularity in their movements, have more grabbing/locking, have a greater emphasis on combinations, and are more likely to use a vertical-fist or one-knuckle punch; Japanese Karate styles tend to use deeper stances, are more likely to have more and higher kicks, emphasize  closed-fist punches, be more linear, place less emphasis on locks, emphasize strong KO techniques, and use primarily a standard palm-down reverse-punch.

Okinawan systems are more likely to strongly emphasize Sanchin and may have a wider variety of traditional (kobudo) weapons. Japanese systems are more likely to emphasize sport (in addition to--not at the expense of--self-defense) and may have more kata. 

It's often possible to make direct analogies between a given Okinawan kata and a Chinese form from which it originated; the similarities can be more obscured in the Japanese systems. 

Of course, I can easily name exceptions as I'm sure others will. As suggested, the archives contain much info. Here are three I started long ago that relate mostly to the Okinawan end of things:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/1521-Why-is-karate-different-from-kung-fu
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/812-Contributions-to-Karate
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/1603-Why-is-kobudo-not-the-study-of-Chinese-weapons


I'll be frank--I believe the Okinawan systems are more effective.


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## dancingalone (Oct 25, 2012)

arnisador said:


> It's tough to generalize...



All this is undeniably true depending on the perspective of the beholder.  And that more or less condenses my reluctance to offer broad level comparisons like these, though I have in the past.



> Okinawan Karate styles tends to use higher and more forward-facing stances



Goju-ryu for example also uses shiko dachi, a modified version of the side facing horse stance, extensively. 



> use fewer and lower kicks,



I would state that the popularity of kicking in Japanese karate (and Okinawan too) comes from sparring and competition and not from any intrinsic tenet of the style.  If we must generalize, I would argue that karate in general favors low risk kicking, yet the moment the young ones get into a tournament, the high roundhouse kicks start flowing.    



> place relatively greater emphasis on open-fist techniques



Virtually every school and style I am aware of teaches the punch first, so students that drop out early or those that never progress to a 'higher' level of understanding will stay at the punch level.  If we look at the dan level kata in Japanese styles like Shotokan and Shito-ryu, they're full of open handed techs.  This makes sense since they share many of the same kata with their Okinawan cousins.  Arguably, any phenomenon we notice about Japanese styles favoring the fist is more about the individual student and teacher than about their art itself.



> have more circularity in their movements



I would say this is also more of a function along individuals than system...The Asai line of Shotokan is remarkably circular compared to some other forms of Shotokan.

....



> Of course, I can easily name exceptions as I'm sure others will.



Yes, sir.  I don't think we're that far apart really.  As I said, I've also absorbed certain preconceptions about karate styles over my ma career, and they are true enough in my own personal observation.  But I am equally certain that others can and will find differently based on their own experiences, so to repeat what I only *think* as mantra is not necessarily helpful to promote karate overall.  These days I'd rather talk about my own karate and what I think are its strengths and weaknesses with people who are interested in learning more about it.  There's an awful lot that falls under Okinawan and Japanese karate, you know?


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## TimoS (Oct 25, 2012)

arnisador said:


> It's tough to generalize, but Karate originated in Okinawa with a strong base in Southern Chinese Kung Fu, then traveled to Japan about 80 or so years ago


While this is true for Uechi and Goju ryu, it is not true for Shorin. The roots of Shorin ryu karate are lost. It is probably influenced by some Chinese martial arts, but when this happened is anyone's guess. We can accurately trace the roots to Bushi Matsumura and _maybe_ his teacher Tode Sakugawa, but anything beyond them is speculation. Even Sakugawa's existence as the teacher of Bushi Matsumura is based on only hear-say and we all know how reliable word of mouth can be


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## Manny (Oct 25, 2012)

arnisador said:


> It's tough to generalize, but Karate originated in Okinawa with a strong base in Southern Chinese Kung Fu, then traveled to Japan about 80 or so years ago. Okinawan Karate styles tends to use higher and more forward-facing stances, use fewer and lower kicks, place relatively greater emphasis on open-fist techniques, have more circularity in their movements, have more grabbing/locking, have a greater emphasis on combinations, and are more likely to use a vertical-fist or one-knuckle punch; Japanese Karate styles tend to use deeper stances, are more likely to have more and higher kicks, emphasize  closed-fist punches, be more linear, place less emphasis on locks, emphasize strong KO techniques, and use primarily a standard palm-down reverse-punch.
> 
> Okinawan systems are more likely to strongly emphasize Sanchin and may have a wider variety of traditional (kobudo) weapons. Japanese systems are more likely to emphasize sport (in addition to--not at the expense of--self-defense) and may have more kata.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much, you are a gentelman. Okinawak karate uses low kicks most of the times and more open hand techs, also emphatizes on locks, etc, are more circular and the stances are high. Also Okinawan karate is not sport oriented and more oriented to self defense and kata.

Manny


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## TimoS (Oct 25, 2012)

Manny said:


> more open hand techs


Depends on school, I would say. Shorin uses mostly fist, at least our school does. Some open hand techniques, sure, but not noticably more than e.g. in the japanese karate I used to train in before I switched to Okinawan karate.


> also emphatizes on locks, etc, are more circular and the stances are high.


Again, depends on school. I know that our blocks aren't usually very circular and as for locks, well, the emphasis is still on kicking and punching. If you can't kick, punch (and block), then what good are locks? Grappling standing up is very difficult


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## dancingalone (Oct 25, 2012)

Manny said:


> Okinawak karate uses low kicks most of the times and more open hand techs, also emphatizes on locks, etc, are more circular and the stances are high. Also Okinawan karate is not sport oriented and more oriented to self defense and kata.



Such sweeping characterizations aren't useful unfortunately.  But perhaps I am being pedantic and should drop the matter.  I think the point that karate should be viewed holistically across styles and schools and teachers has been made.


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## seasoned (Oct 25, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Such sweeping characterizations aren't useful unfortunately.  But perhaps I am being pedantic and should drop the matter.  I think the point that karate should be viewed holistically across styles and schools and teachers has been made.


As been mentioned, Okinawan karate schools differ greatly, and one can only speak of their dojo and what they are focusing on. 
What Okinawan karate was devised for and the way it is taught today can vary from dojo to dojo. 
There are still some dojo that derive technique strictly from their kata based system, but this is not for everyone.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 25, 2012)

TimoS said:


> While this is true for Uechi and Goju ryu, it is not true for Shorin. The roots of Shorin ryu karate are lost. It is probably influenced by some Chinese martial arts, but when this happened is anyone's guess. We can accurately trace the roots to Bushi Matsumura and _maybe_ his teacher Tode Sakugawa, but anything beyond them is speculation. Even Sakugawa's existence as the teacher of Bushi Matsumura is based on only hear-say and we all know how reliable word of mouth can be



Lets be really specific. I don't think it's accurate to say the roots of Shorin systems are lost. We don't have a provable direct connection to arts like they do in Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. We do have some circumstantial indications of where some of the material might have originated. For example, we know that Matsumura received a Menkyo Kaiden in Jigen Ryu.  It's a safe assumption to say that some of this material made it's way into Shorin Karate.


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## TimoS (Oct 25, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I don't think it's accurate to say the roots of Shorin systems are lost


I think it is accurate. Or maybe I should've been more specific, we don't know the Chinese roots of Shorin. It is probable that what eventually became Shorin was also influenced by Chinese martial arts at some point in it's history, but when? Who taught what and to whom? Where and when? Let's forget all the legends of Chinto and Kusanku, because that's what they probably are: legends. Then again, they might of course be true, but we can't _know_ that.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 25, 2012)

TimoS said:


> I think it is accurate. Or maybe I should've been more specific, we don't know the Chinese roots of Shorin. It is probable that what eventually became Shorin was also influenced by Chinese martial arts at some point in it's history, but when? Who taught what and to whom? Where and when? Let's forget all the legends of Chinto and Kusanku, because that's what they probably are: legends. Then again, they might of course be true, but we can't _know_ that.



As far as I can determine, we know that the gradfather of Shorin styles trained in Japanese martial arts. The Jigen Ryu includes empty handed lists and many of the techniques resemble others found in jujutsu and aikijujutsu.

From primary and secondary sources we know that Shorin styles draw techniques from Okinawan wrestling, or tegumi. Some of these techniques were described in early manuels on Karate.

The part that we are no longer able to determine is what styles of Chinese martial arts were drawn from in order to construct what ultimately became Shorin ryu. In the Bubishi it is referenced that Gojushiho came from a system that was called "black tiger". I'm assuming this was an animal style of kung fu that somehow made it's way to Okinawa. 

We also know that there was much crossover in training when it came to Goju and Uechi masters. Matsumura probably trained in the system and it is demonstratable that masters that followed after trained in the system. Thus, southern chinese kung fun plays a part...probably minor.

Who was Sakagawa? Kusanku? Chinto? Wansu? Where did Jion, Jiin and jitte originate? There are many unanswered questions. The shoulder throw in wansu is interesting. it is distinct enough to narrow down the search to styles that include a significant amount of grappling. There are other distinct moves that I think provide hints, but I don't think we'll ever be able to document a connection.


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## arnisador (Oct 25, 2012)

arnisador said:


> It's tough to generalize, but Karate originated  in Okinawa with a strong base in Southern Chinese Kung Fu, then  traveled to Japan about 80 or so years ago.






TimoS said:


> While this is true for Uechi and Goju ryu, it is not true for Shorin. The roots of Shorin ryu karate are lost. It is probably influenced by some Chinese martial arts, but when this happened is anyone's guess. We can accurately trace the roots to Bushi Matsumura and _maybe_ his teacher Tode Sakugawa, but anything beyond them is speculation. Even Sakugawa's existence as the teacher of Bushi Matsumura is based on only hear-say and we all know how reliable word of mouth can be



Hmmmm, I was drawing a distinction in my mind that I didn't state: Proto-Karate in the (nominally) independent Ryukyu kingdom dates back to at least the 1500s when a major Chinese delegation arrived and stayed, and older styles like Shorin developed as recognizable Karate by at least the 1700s. After the Ryukyu kingdom was finally (and unwillingly) administratively merged into Japan in the late 1800s, it wasn't until the 1920s that the art made it to (mainland) Japan. Uechi especially is its own special case, and Isshin came to be after WWII.


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