# One of my favorite throws to do...



## wab25 (Sep 9, 2022)

This is one of my favorite throws. Most throws, you turn counter clockwise and throw counter clockwise. This one you turn clockwise and throw counter clockwise... (at least it feels like that) Lots of fun to do...






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## Jared Traveler (Sep 9, 2022)

wab25 said:


> This is one of my favorite throws. Most throws, you turn counter clockwise and throw counter clockwise. This one you turn clockwise and throw counter clockwise... (at least it feels like that) Lots of fun to do...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you manage to operationalize it in Rondori?


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## _Simon_ (Sep 9, 2022)

wab25 said:


> This is one of my favorite throws. Most throws, you turn counter clockwise and throw counter clockwise. This one you turn clockwise and throw counter clockwise... (at least it feels like that) Lots of fun to do...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ayyyy I think I know the guy you're throwing! Small world!

And nice throw!


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Do you manage to operationalize it in Rondori?


Not yet... still working on that part. Its still a fun throw to practice... it feels totally different....


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Ayyyy I think I know the guy you're throwing! Small world!
> 
> And nice throw!


I will ask him if he know a guy from Australia.... it may be a small world indeed!


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 9, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Not yet... still working on that part. Its still a fun throw to practice... it feels totally different....


Sometimes my favorite throws I could never pull off in competition. Other throws I didn't have a connection with, I would regularly dump people with. It's weird like that sometimes. So I was curious.


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Sometimes my favorite throws I could never pull off in competition. Other throws I didn't have a connection with, I would regularly dump people with. It's weird like that sometimes. So I was curious.


For and this throw... its about getting the right opportunity in randori. At for now, I need to be rolling with a Gi, as I need the lapel grip... so rolling with MMA folks is not going to give me the opportunity to try it out. 

When people get thrown by this throw, the first few times they reach for the ground, as they are coming more straight over than they expect. (they also expect to be going with the turn, not against it) So, even when rolling in a Gi, I need to be rolling with someone that is familiar enough with taking this fall, that they don't reach out for the ground and get hurt. I need a bit more control to pull this off *safely*, on an unexpecting uke, during randori. So, that leaves me with only trying it on people experienced enough with this throw... but that means that they see my attempt at it coming a mile away. I'll get there.... just not today.... but I keep working on it, thats why they made tomorrow. 

On the street, when I don't care for the other guys safety.... I think as long as they have a jacket or sturdy enough shirt, I could pull it off... However, in that situation, I would most likely fall back to using one of the other throws that I have thrown people with in randori hundreds of times. Maybe one day, I will get this throw into that category.... until then, its still fun train this throw.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 9, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I will ask him if he know a guy from Australia.... it may be a small world indeed!


If you say I'm a member of SMK he'll know hehe


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 10, 2022)

wab25 said:


> This is one of my favorite throws. Most throws, you turn counter clockwise and throw counter clockwise. This one you turn clockwise and throw counter clockwise... (at least it feels like that) Lots of fun to do...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What's your set up for this throw?

Should you disable your opponent's free arms when you spin your body into him and give your back? Your opponent's free arm can wrap around your waist and pull you back down. Even worse, his free hand can pull your forehead back and put pressure on your neck (helmet remove). How do you prevent that from happening?


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## wab25 (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's your set up for this throw?


Like I said above... I am still working on how to use this throw in randori. At this point, if I can get the other guy to push me back, pushing into my shoulders, up high.... I could drop under for this.... But, I am still working on it. Right now I am on step one with this throw... can I do the technique? If I can't do the technique, there is no reason to set it up. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should you disable your opponent's free arms when you spin your body into him and give your back? Your opponent's free arm can wrap around your waist and pull you back down. Even worse, his free hand can pull your forehead back and put pressure on your neck (helmet remove). How do you prevent that from happening?


Should we discount any technique that can be countered? If so... which techniques are left???


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

wab25 said:


> If I can't do the technique, there is no reason to set it up.


You can train how to set up and also how to apply a throw at the same time. IMO, there is no need to separate as 2 different training.


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## wab25 (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can train how to set up and also how to apply a throw at the same time. IMO, there is no need to separate as 2 different training.


Yes you are right.... you can train the set up  at the same time. But now we get into different styles of training. Different people will like different styles.

If you train technique A with set up 1... you can get very good at applying technique A... as long as you can use set up 1. This is certainly a valid way to train and works for many people.

However, there is another way to train. First learn technique A. When you can do technique A, then you can learn set ups (plural) for technique A. You can learn set up 1, then 2, then 3.... 

I have found when I try the first (set up 1 as part of technique A) that in order to learn set up 2, I have to break the habits I just got done forming. Maybe this is a personal problem I have. I find it easier to learn the individual building blocks, then learn different ways to put them together. For me, this way is easier to get proficient with technique A where I can apply it from set up 1, 2, 3 or some other set up that I come up with. One of my sensei's told me: its always easier to put salt into the soup... but once you put the salt in, its harder to take it out to put in another spice.

Form / kata based martial arts tend to teach the set up and application together (down block sets up reverse punch)... and many people learn that way. Arts like Judo and Jujitsu, tend to teach the techniques first and then the set ups once there is reasonable proficiency with the technique... and many people learn this way as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I find it easier to learn the individual building blocks, then learn different ways to put them together.


The concern is after you have developed a certain habit, you may need to spend extra time to remove it later on.

For example, many people train "hip throw" by using right arm to wrap around opponent's waist. This give their opponents a free left arm that can do a lot of things. After they have been countered over and over, they lost faith in "hip throw". 

It's not their hip throw that don't work. It's their hip throw set up is wrong.


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## wab25 (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The concern is after you have developed a certain habit, you may need to spend extra time to remove it later on.
> 
> For example, many people train "hip throw" by using right arm to wrap around opponent's waist. This give their opponents a free left arm that can do a lot of things. After they have been countered over and over, they lost faith in "hip throw".
> 
> It's not their hip throw that don't work. It's their hip throw set up is wrong.


So then you would object to this type of training?





Even though this type of training leads to:





And again you are trying to throw out a technique, because it has a counter.... But you have yet to name a technique that does not have a counter. If all techniques have counters.... shouldn't they all be thrown out?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 12, 2022)

It looks a little bit like a gi based variation of a fireman's carry. 

Since I suck at even the basic version of a fireman's carry, I have no suggestions on how to make this one functional in randori. But it looks cool.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

wab25 said:


> If all techniques have counters.... shouldn't they all be thrown out?


If you move in from your right side, to be able to control your opponent's left arm is important.

When you apply a hip throw, if you use underhook instead of waist wrap, you can control his left free arm.





When you apply shoulder throw, you can guide your opponent's free left arm under his own right arm and controlled between you and your opponent's bodies.


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## wab25 (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you move in from your right side, to be able to control yur opponent's left arm is important.
> 
> When you apply a hip throw, if you use underhook instead of waist wrap, you can control his left free arm.
> 
> ...



We can see examples of both ogoshi and seoi nage being used in Judo competition, quite effectively... we can even find examples of them being used in MMA and on the street.

Are you arguing that your versions do not have counters? (hate to break the news... but they certainly do have counters... many of the counters being exactly the same as the Judo / Jujitsu version)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

wab25 said:


> We can see examples of both ogoshi and seoi nage being used in Judo competition, quite effectively... we can even find examples of them being used in MMA and on the street.
> 
> Are you arguing that your versions do not have counters? (hate to break the news... but they certainly do have counters... many of the counters being exactly the same as the Judo / Jujitsu version)


Sometime you may move in so fast that your opponent doesn't have time to counter you. But why take the risk if you don't have to?

You can move in while your opponent's left arm is

1. free, or
2. under your control.

IMO, 2 is better than 1.

Here are examples that your opponent's free left arm can give you some trouble.


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## wab25 (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime you may move in so fast that your opponent doesn't have time to counter you. But why take the risk if you don't have to?
> 
> You can move in while your opponent's left arm is
> 
> ...


In post #16, you showed your version of hip throw.... should that version be discounted, since both of the counters you show here, will work against your hip throw in post #16?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

wab25 said:


> In post #16, you showed your version of hip throw.... should that version be discounted, since both of the counters you show here, will work against your hip throw in post #16?


The hip throw in post #16,

- Your opponent left hand tries to reach to your right upper collar,
- You use right underhook to control his left arm, and
- move in with hip throw.

Your opponent's left arm can't do anything to you at that moment. This is the beauty of the underhook.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2022)

wab25 said:


> This is one of my favorite throws. Most throws, you turn counter clockwise and throw counter clockwise. This one you turn clockwise and throw counter clockwise... (at least it feels like that) Lots of fun to do...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can you post that in a way that doesn’t require a FB account? Mine got hacked, so I’m no longer able to get on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can train how to set up and also how to apply a throw at the same time. IMO, there is no need to separate as 2 different training.


In some cases, it can be hard to break down the openings until you understand the technique better. Sometimes the apparent openings aren’t as good as they look. 

(Note that I can’t see the video, so I can only speak in generalities.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> In some cases, it can be hard to break down the openings until you understand the technique better. Sometimes the apparent openings aren’t as good as they look.


Some wrestlers like to play counter. You move in and spin your body, your opponent spin with you, and take you down. So if you don't have a proper set up, you should not move in in the first place.

One time I used a single leg on my senior SC brother David C. K. Lin.

- My left hand tried to reach to his leading right leg.
- My right hand tried to push on his right shoulder.
- He used left hand to knock down my right arm.
- He then used his right hand to strike on the back of my neck, and took me down.

I have 2 arms, my opponent also have 2 arms. When I use one hand to control my opponent's leading leg, I have only 1 free arm left while my opponent still have 2 free arms to counter me.


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## drop bear (Sep 13, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It looks a little bit like a gi based variation of a fireman's carry.
> 
> Since I suck at even the basic version of a fireman's carry, I have no suggestions on how to make this one functional in randori. But it looks cool.



Nice throw from the overhook.


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## wab25 (Sep 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Can you post that in a way that doesn’t require a FB account? Mine got hacked, so I’m no longer able to get on.


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## wab25 (Sep 13, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hip throw in post #16,
> 
> - Your opponent left hand tries to reach to your right upper collar,
> - You use right underhook to control his left arm, and
> ...


So, you believe that the hip throw in post #16 has no counter?

You believe that the counters shown in post #18 will not work against that hip throw?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 13, 2022)

wab25 said:


>


I like that. There are a couple of throws in NGA that are related, but use the arm, instead. If I can find a video (I don't have a partner to record one with), I'll post a link. It'd be fun to try converting the movement to work from that grip.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I like that. There are a couple of throws in NGA that are related, but use the arm, instead. If I can find a video (I don't have a partner to record one with), I'll post a link. It'd be fun to try converting the movement to work from that grip.


Here's the Pivot Over the Back throw (at 1:17). The Over the Back throw is mechanically closer in some ways, but I couldn't find a video of it - think the fireman's carry throw, with wrist locks to lead them over.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 13, 2022)

wab25 said:


> So, you believe that the hip throw in post #16 has no counter?
> 
> You believe that the counters shown in post #18 will not work against that hip throw?


There are 2 counters on post #18. The 1st counter requires your opponent's left free hand to reach to your forehead. The 2nd counter requires your opponent's left free hand to reach to your waist. When you use underhook, both are hard to do by your opponent.

When you use underhook, your opponent can use overhook to counter you. If we give the effectness of waist wrap/drag counter as 70% (you have less time to react), the overhook counter can be 30% (you have more time to react).

When your opponent uses

- force against force (such as overhook counter underhook), you will have more time to react.
- borrowing force (such as waist wrap/drag), you will have less time to react.


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## wab25 (Sep 13, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Here's the Pivot Over the Back throw (at 1:17). The Over the Back throw is mechanically closer in some ways, but I couldn't find a video of it - think the fireman's carry throw, with wrist locks to lead them over.


I have worked on that throw with the Aikido folks here. (sorry they are not NGA...) You are right... it is similar. Too similar for my taste  its just close enough, that it makes it hard for me to do, as I keep reverting to our version when trying to do theirs. 

Ours is more diagonal and over the shoulder... that throw (at least according to the Aikido folks I train with) is more straight over the waist. To accomplish that, I turn in more and tighter... where they turn in less, but extend uke in a totally "different" direction for the load. But, it does feel surprisingly similar.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 13, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I have worked on that throw with the Aikido folks here. (sorry they are not NGA...) You are right... it is similar. Too similar for my taste  its just close enough, that it makes it hard for me to do, as I keep reverting to our version when trying to do theirs.
> 
> Ours is more diagonal and over the shoulder... that throw (at least according to the Aikido folks I train with) is more straight over the waist. To accomplish that, I turn in more and tighter... where they turn in less, but extend uke in a totally "different" direction for the load. But, it does feel surprisingly similar.


I've never had a chance to work that with folks from Ueshiba's Aikido. I'd love to feel the way they do it - we tend to be more direct than them in a lot of ways, and the way they lead often eludes me.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 22, 2022)




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