# Best place to hit first?



## still learning (Aug 19, 2005)

Hello, What can we teach a person with no experience the best place to hit someone and run/ for defence?...........Aloha


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 19, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, What can we teach a person with no experience the best place to hit someone and run/ for defence?...........Aloha


(#1) The nose with a good *hard* shot.  Causes pain, possible break, bleeding that hinders breathing and makes the eyes water obscuring the vision, not a terrubly hard target to hit.

(#2) The eyes with a sharp blow, poke or rake.  Causes pain, eyes water up obscuring vision, most people (actaully everyone I've ever done this too but i don't wabt to say 100%) grab the eyes when the eyes are struck, poked, or raked which frees the defender from grabs and moves the attackers gaurd out of the way of other targets. Only listed #2 becasue it's slightly harder for a beginner to target than the nose.

(#3) The groin depending on the situation.  If there is alot of adrenaline flowing the groin shot may be ineffective for a few seconds/ a minute but if not the gron shot can drop a person and cause most men to grab the affected area.  See above about grabbing the hit area.

(#4) The throat.  Causes pain, difficulty breathing, a *hard blow* makes the opponent grab the throat area to protect it (I want to say 100% from experience but you know....).  The throat is listed 4th becaue it's the hardest to hit.  Simply dipping the chin blocks it, but the other targets require a limb to get in the way.

This is my opinion and order of priority.  Thoughts?


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## dubljay (Aug 19, 2005)

I would have to agree the nose is an excellent diversion target.  The watering of the eyes and the bleeding is usually enough of a distraction to exit the situation.  I would caution people in striking to the throat.  If you decide to strike to the throat be sure to hit the _base_ of the throat to avoid collapsing the trachea.  Also a hard strike to the stomach is enough to knock the wind out of a person or even knock them down.


 -Josh


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## searcher (Aug 19, 2005)

I agree with the nose, throat, and eyes.   I do, however, often steer people away from the groin.   It is the place that most guys expect to get hit so they tend to protect it better.   You also have the risk of doubling them over and the defender gets a head-butt in the face.   In place of the groin I tell them to stomp the instep.  If they are close enough to go for the groin then they are close enough to get their instep smashed.   JMHO.


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## kenpochad (Aug 19, 2005)

kick to the knees or a nice tai  kick above the knee


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 19, 2005)

kenpochad said:
			
		

> kick to the knees or a nice tai kick above the knee


How many times have you seen someone get kicked in the knee and instantly disabled from one blow?

Not trying to be disrespectful, I just can't see that as being a primary attack to a total beginner as the failure rate for an improper kick (meaning a beginner has to learn balance, power, targeting let alone shin conditioning for a thai kick) seems too high.  Could you explain your reasoning so I could understand where you are coming from?


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 19, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> I agree with the nose, throat, and eyes. I do, however, often steer people away from the groin. It is the place that most guys expect to get hit so they tend to protect it better. You also have the risk of doubling them over and the defender gets a head-butt in the face. In place of the groin I tell them to stomp the instep. If they are close enough to go for the groin then they are close enough to get their instep smashed. JMHO.


I agree with most of what you said except one thing.  The instep stomp.  I tend to wear boots all the time.  A stomp to the instep is not going to disable me or anyone else through boots.  I think a total beginner needs to be taught targets that are generally unprotected by clothing year round. Thoughts?

respectfully,
James


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## searcher (Aug 20, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Thoughts?
> 
> respectfully,
> James


It is a nice tactic to teach them to hit unprotected targets.   I still think that even a beginner can still inflict damage to the instep, even if the attacker has on boots.   I wear steel toes all day for work and I had hurt my insteps by dropping small wrenches on them.   So I think it is still a valid target.   More so than the groin, since most guys expect to get attacked there.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I agree with most of what you said except one thing.  The instep stomp.  I tend to wear boots all the time.  A stomp to the instep is not going to disable me or anyone else through boots.  I think a total beginner needs to be taught targets that are generally unprotected by clothing year round. Thoughts?
> 
> respectfully,
> James




To add to this, I would add the shin kick and then execute the instep stomp .

No muscle under the skin over the shin bone, makes this a real nice pain center, to attack to get a reaction.

I also teach that it is not always to location of the attack but the intent behind it. To that matter I also teach hammer fist to total untrained beginners. This up and down motion is a gross motor skill that can be used even underneath an adrenaline dump and stress. Everyone has seen the little kid who just pounds on the floor or the door or the adult as he is being corrected and or educated.

 :asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 20, 2005)

I like this thread differing view points yet everyone is being respectful.  The Shin Kick and Instep stuff???? I have my misgivings on those as *first option targets*.  The instep for reasons that I mentioned in earlier posts (potentially covered by heavy material let alone the feet tend to move alot during confrontations making for harder tagets).  The shin I can get with to a degree, but I take the philosophy of assuming that the attacker is just as/more skilled and conditioned as I am (worse case scenario line of thought).  That being said I've spent a good number of years conditioning my shins in kickboxing.  I'm used to getting hit there intentionally and unitentionally.  I tend to favor targets (for TOTAL BEGINNERS) that are 1) relatively easy to hit/reach 2) tend to be unprotected by clothing that can dampen the blow, and c) cannot be physically conditioned to take punishment.  That way the beginner doesn't run across problems when they meet the attacker that a) has the heavy shoes on to protect the feet, b) has tough shins and can take that blow c) lives in gym and has abs of steel or worse boxes and so is used to getting hit in the stomach.  But maybe that's my Kenpo bias where we consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets.  Thoughts?


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## Flatlander (Aug 20, 2005)

Clap a hand over the ear.  Ouch.




			
				Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I take the philosophy of assuming that the attacker is just as/more skilled and conditioned as I am (worse case scenario line of thought).


From this point of view, then, one must also be aware that there is a counter for everything. And a counter for those counters, etc. Given that, perhaps the shin can be an excellent target, as there is a large bundle of nerves there that makes a shin strike quite painful. Further, you may note that most would not, under these "circumstances", be thinking "protect the shins". They're thinking "watch the hands". I don't see why the shin can't be considered as useful a primary target as anything else suggested so far.

 I think that if you're teaching your beginning student to "consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets", you may be getting a little deeper than they are prepared for, as a beginner. IMHO.

  Also, 



> That way the beginner doesn't run across problems when they meet the attacker that .... c) lives in gym and has abs of steel or worse boxes and so is used to getting hit in the stomach.


 It seems to me that if a beginner does anything but run when facing a boxer that lives in the gym, they are going to get creamed irrespective of what primary target they have chosen.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> I like this thread differing view points yet everyone is being respectful.  The Shin Kick and Instep stuff???? I have my misgivings on those as *first option targets*.  The instep for reasons that I mentioned in earlier posts (potentially covered by heavy material let alone the feet tend to move alot during confrontations making for harder tagets).  The shin I can get with to a degree, but I take the philosophy of assuming that the attacker is just as/more skilled and conditioned as I am (worse case scenario line of thought).  That being said I've spent a good number of years conditioning my shins in kickboxing.  I'm used to getting hit there intentionally and unitentionally.  I tend to favor targets (for TOTAL BEGINNERS) that are 1) relatively easy to hit/reach 2) tend to be unprotected by clothing that can dampen the blow, and c) cannot be physically conditioned to take punishment.  That way the beginner doesn't run across problems when they meet the attacker that a) has the heavy shoes on to protect the feet, b) has tough shins and can take that blow c) lives in gym and has abs of steel or worse boxes and so is used to getting hit in the stomach.  But maybe that's my Kenpo bias where we consider environmental and conditioning factors first when acquiring targets.  Thoughts?




No disrespect, but a total beginner is more likely to be in a situation where they did not see it until it is too late and they are already grabbed.

So I see the Shin just as readily available as the the nose or any other part of the person.

Unless you step back, clear, point and go BANG. Or pull your sword just like Highlander, you are going to be in reach of each other. 

So, like I said the shin to get them to react to the pain, as you either hammer fist them in the face, remember no experience, means most likely not to be able to target the nose directly, I agree aim center, but, it can be off. I also think that if the person bends over the same downard hammer fist gives you a shot at the back of the head.

So, why the Shin first? It gets people to react, and people do not think about it, or protect it. Where as everyone instinctively protects their face even with the "Oh my Gosh Block".

For a total newbie aka n00bie, or white belt or any thing else they get called, to be able to remember complex tasks and instructions and techniques and execute them under stress and or adrenaline dump is way too much to be expected. 

I agree that if you teach this person a while they will not go to this all the time, and their first shot will change with preference.

And I also train for the opponent who my skill or better, and I assume the guy  knows as much as I do or more, and has more experience. Yet, I have 19+ years experience in the martial arts, and my approach will not be like those. I also bounced, and faught, and did *STUPID* things that should have gotten me killed before I started training. I actually started training to understand how not to break people and send to the hospital all the time.

In that learning process, I found out that I had to resort back to strength techniques until I truly had them in my muscle memory and I was able to execute them with out thinking. I had to do this with lots of techniques I was looking for, as in Disarms of weapons and joint locks and throws, and the control in them so that I controlled but did not break them, and have to deal with those pesky police reports again. I really enjoyed the capability of being able to roll with the flow and move to the next technique as one was countered either on purpose or by instinct, and keep the pressure on, and the control on. I still work this, as I still need to improve, but I have no problems with what I have today, yet, it is not what a total no experience person will or can do.

Many times people do not even know there was danger or the possibility of danger, until it was too late, or the fates smile on them and it moves on.  A total newbie with no experience needs simple tasks with simple instructions that they cannot screw up. KISS.


So disrespect meant, but I stand by what I said above and here as well, based upon my own learning process, executing before and after the learning process began, and from those I have taught. 

 :asian:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 20, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Clap a hand over the ear. Ouch.
> 
> 
> From this point of view, then, one must also be aware that there is a counter for everything. And a counter for those counters, etc. Given that, perhaps the shin can be an excellent target, as there is a large bundle of nerves there that makes a shin strike quite painful. Further, you may note that most would not, under these "circumstances", be thinking "protect the shins". They're thinking "watch the hands". I don't see why the shin can't be considered as useful a primary target as anything else suggested so far.
> ...


1)Clap the hear! great stuff. pain generated, equilibrium and concentration shot. Proceed to nearest exit.

2) I'm with ya for the 'counter for counter' that's fundamental martial arts.  But I'm considering a move countered without doing anything. For example go ahead and kick ME in the shin I'll laugh it off because those nerve bundles aren't as active thanks to the conditioning so I don't have to think about protecting my shins anymore.  It'll take someone several hard blows before I'm bothered.  So the element of surprise is gone, I now know this person wants to fight, the first shot was wasted and now I'm on guard (placing my self in the attackers' shoes of course).  That's why I stressed targets that _*cannot be conditioned*_.  Unless someone wants to tell me how to condition the eyes, nose, etc. because I surely don't know.  And I'm being serious there, not sarcastic.

3) we use the 'enviromental consideration' in our teaching process.  WE INSTRUCTORS consider it when teaching people what to go for.  You're absolutely right about that if I was teaching that to a beginner.  Too much on the plate I might as well smack them around myself before they get to the street.  'Cause by the time they cycle through all the environental factors they'll be beaten badly anyway.

4)Yep the beginner has to run, *but* they have to earn the right to run away in many cases.  I guess my point is I'd rather give them targets that cause immediate pain and disorientation/temporary blindness/etc. so they can flee immediately after the first pre-emptive strike.  Not targets that require a follow up hit like the shin often does even when it's on someone without the conditioning.  Like Mr. parson's stated the shin gets them to react *followed by* a good hammerfist or another follow-up shot.  I'd rather give the beginner a fighting chance to run away after landing one blow as oppossed to a strategy that involves multiple blows that could turn into an exchange.  Then flight is no longer available and buying the time to flee is priority one.

Thoughts? Love the intelligent discussion.

Respectfully,
James


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## kenpochad (Aug 22, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> How many times have you seen someone get kicked in the knee and instantly disabled from one blow?
> 
> Not trying to be disrespectful, I just can't see that as being a primary attack to a total beginner as the failure rate for an improper kick (meaning a beginner has to learn balance, power, targeting let alone shin conditioning for a thai kick) seems too high. Could you explain your reasoning so I could understand where you are coming from?


ok maybe the tai kick is kind of advanced but i think a front kick is pretty basic no ? I have witnessed a kick to the knee one time with a knife edge kick 
and it worked I saw the guy that took the kick about a week or two later and he had his leg in a brace. But you probale have more experience than i do .


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## Eldritch Knight (Aug 22, 2005)

Make a fist. Find a soft target. Hit it really, really hard. Repeat.

That's about all a beginner's going to remember without any real training. If you give them specific targets, they'll slow down and _think_ during combat, giving their opponent a half-second more to get the drop on them. With this, they see and they act.


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## clfsean (Aug 22, 2005)

Eldritch Knight said:
			
		

> Make a fist. Find a soft target. Hit it really, really hard. Repeat.


I like this. I may use this in class sometimes... if I haven't already. 

It's simple, but effective without a lot of forethought or training necessary.


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## searcher (Aug 22, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Clap a hand over the ear. Ouch.


This is an great target.   It is often overlooked and is easily accessible.   Another way to utilize the ears is to pull them off.   It only takes 3-5 pounds of pressure to tear one off.   A simple up and down jerk and it is in your hand.   The only drawback is that they bleed something fierce.:erg:


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## kenpochad (Aug 22, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> This is an great target. It is often overlooked and is easily accessible. Another way to utilize the ears is to pull them off. It only takes 3-5 pounds of pressure to tear one off. A simple up and down jerk and it is in your hand. The only drawback is that they bleed something fierce.:erg:


The only bad part of this is you have to be able to set it up. As a beginner its sometime hard to close distance. Its great if there right on you to clap the ears as you grab stick thumbs in the eyes and thin pull down. Riping the ears off.


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## Cthulhu (Aug 23, 2005)

Very first should be:

 Right foot - pavement
 Left foot - pavement

 Repeat as necessary.


 Cthulhu


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 23, 2005)

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> Very first should be:
> 
> Right foot - pavement
> Left foot - pavement
> ...


But what if they just do that inplace? LOL details man! details! LOL


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## swiftpete (Aug 23, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> This is an great target. It is often overlooked and is easily accessible. Another way to utilize the ears is to pull them off. It only takes 3-5 pounds of pressure to tear one off. A simple up and down jerk and it is in your hand. The only drawback is that they bleed something fierce.:erg:


You say this as if you've done it..?


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## still learning (Aug 23, 2005)

Hello, Thank-you for the replys! No simple answer here? Most of you agree the eyes, nose, throat, knees, stomp the foot,shins and groin? 

 My daughter does not want to learn the martial arts and we offer her other choices too. The one thing I tell her is always go for the eyes first, if someone is attacking you. Take out their eye site, if they cannot see you...than you can run away or hit them with anything around you.

 also the other areas all of you have mention, hit the nose, throat, groin, and shin and if the person is on the ground stomp the ankles and run.....she knows about poping the ears, biting. Also spiting into the face. 

  ...................thanks............Aloha


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## TallAdam85 (Aug 26, 2005)

this one is what a little kid said in class " hit them in the mommy daddy button" lol


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## gmkuoha (Aug 26, 2005)

The eyes, nose and throat are instant release areas to strike and I might add from past experience from myself and others that an elbow to the bridge of the nose serves  basically the same purpose as being struck in the nose but with extreme pain that works on the brain also...ie, instant headaches, blindness. Also any strike to the ear area causes loss of balance and equilibrium. It also causes double vision and unsteadiness. Hope this helps.
 Grandmaster Kuoha


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## hong kong fooey (Nov 9, 2005)

I wold have to say the first hit should be to the nose if you hit it had enough it can temp blind the person and give enough time to get away


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## RichK (Nov 10, 2005)

Everyone has to remember that not all points work on everyone. I've had my nose broken enough times that the nerve below my nose is dead. The second time it was broke I just laughed. The groin does not work on someone that is drunk. Drunks do not feel much pain until they start coming down. The instep is a great place but also I have been hit there so many times I am used to it and then say oww later on. The shin slide to instep works, it is a tracking move and hits two targets at once so if one does not work the second may. The base of the throat is great as are the ears.


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## yochi (Nov 10, 2005)

Best place to hit first?

Whatever is available for your hitting. If they are an experienced martial artist, or smart enough to defend themselves, you will not be able to hit them anywhere you please. Look for holes in their defense and use it against them, hard.

Auf Wiedersehen alle.


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## bobster_ice (Dec 5, 2005)

If you think that your going to lose the fight...Hit him/her in the groin area, they will fall like a ton of bricks.


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## still learning (Dec 5, 2005)

Hello, Thank-you for you thoughts, we all can learn more from each other....Aloha


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## DeLamar.J (Dec 12, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, What can we teach a person with no experience the best place to hit someone and run/ for defence?...........Aloha


I have always found the groin to be the best place to hit first.


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## Jagermeister (Dec 13, 2005)

What are the dangers of a blow to your opponent's throat?  I have some reservations with this tactic, simply because I don't really understand its consequences.  I mean, is this something that can be fatal if not done properly?


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## KenpoTess (Dec 13, 2005)

crushing the windpipe.. not conducive to breathing.. so unless you're spot on with your targeting and control.. I would avoid the front of the throat unless you're intent on real harm.

I would go for the eyes and knees.


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## Henderson (Dec 13, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> What can we teach a person with no experience the best place to hit someone and run for *defence*?...........Aloha


 
The original question was posed as a defense situation.  Therefore, danger is to be assumed.  Am I wrong?

I feel the strike to the throat is a pretty good choice here.  Crushed windpipe, carotid sinus.  I don't think accuracy will be a problem.

Respects,
Frank


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## arnisador (Dec 13, 2005)

You can collapse the windpipe (including that it can spasm shut). A punch or kick runs the risk of injuring the neck more generally. A throat blow is dangerous, though a quick single-finger poke is usually not a threat to life (_usually_).


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## arnisador (Dec 13, 2005)

Henderson said:
			
		

> The original question was posed as a defense situation. Therefore, danger is to be assumed. Am I wrong?


 
Well, that's always the difficulty with discussing a situation like this. One person imagines facing an opponent with a weapon, far from help, and another imagines a bully in the halls of his high school. The responses will surely be different!


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## Henderson (Dec 13, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> a quick single-finger poke is usually not a threat to life (_usually_).


 
I love that one, too!


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## Jagermeister (Dec 13, 2005)

Have any of you heard any first-hand accounts of a blow to the windpipe?  The kind of scenario I'm thinking about is self-defense in the most primal form, say 1 person being attacked by several, where reducing the number of opponents quickly is vital.  I'm not being very clear here with what I'm trying to ask, I guess.  I'd like to know I could resort to something like this if I had to, but if it's been proven to result in death at a pretty high rate, I don't think I would utilize this technique unless it was truly life or death.  Has anyone any first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge of an actual occurance of this type of strike?


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