# Well I may have discovered something...



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2012)

and I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing

After my knee injury when I got to a point where I could start training again I had the occasional knee issue so I would stop doing any training for a bit but after a while I would return to Traditional Yang style Taijiquan and then start Xingyiquan and a dash of Wing Chun and then my knee would start hurting and I would be back in a brace and have to stop again. I decided that Xingyiquan was the problem or possibly the Wing Chun stance needed for Sil lim Tao

Recently I was able to get back into training but I started with Beijing 24 form Taijiquan and then added Xingyiquan and then a little Wing Chun and things kept getting better and then I found I could actually start training more like I use to and I am rather happy about that. 

So last night I decided since things were going so well that maybe I should start working on Traditional Yang style again so I did the long form. After I was done I ended up in my recliner icing my knee for 20 minutes because it was not feeling too good.

I have been blaming Xingyiquan and Wing Chun and the problem may be from Taijiquan, or it could be Traditional Yang in combination with the other styles but when I think about it my knee was bothering me to varying degrees when I stopped Xingyi and Wing Chun and only did Taiji but without the long for of Yang my knee seems to be getting stronger.

I will admit for the last couple of months it has been hard to get myself to do any traditional Yang style and the last two weeks I have done none, only Xingyi and Sil Lim Tao. Last night for the first time I was in the mood to do Yang style, so I did the long form and nothing else. But now I am not sure that I should be doing it at all and after 17 years of it I am having mixed feelings about the possibility of having to quit. I am upset at the possibility that I may have to stop it and I am also relieved at the possibility that I may have to stop and this combination seems odd to me. It is no secret that I like Xingyiquan much better than Taiji or just about anything I have ever trained (sadly there are no good teachers in my area and I am searching far and wide for one) 

I need to do a bit more experimentation here and figure this out, but if ultimately traditional Yang has to stop it has to stop and like I said I am both sad and relieved about that, which is a bit odd. And I can still do Beijing 24 form, work on the 13 postures and do tuishou if I want to keep Taiji as part of my training. 

I have what may be a short, but possibly a bit hardcore, Xingyiquan seminar coming up the end of the month and I will have to see how my knee does there. But I will say that the last Xingyi seminar I went to that after 6 hours and forgetting my knee brace in the hotel (meaning I did not have it for the entire seminar) I felt great and my knee was fine. But a 20 minute Yang long form makes it hurt a lot.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 10, 2012)

From what you've written, I don't think it's related to any particular style. Here's what I see:
You feel better, you start to work out. It feels OK, so you extend the workout. Then it starts hurting again.
Solution: Start slow and advance slower.


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## oaktree (Mar 10, 2012)

I think you should examine your structure.  
 Maybe you are stepping out of alignment
but I know when I'm feeling pain in my knee
Its cause my kua is closed or my angle off
Or I'm not sinking correctly.  

You might have to modify steps because of your injury.  
  You can go slow maybe break the long form in quarters
See how you feel.from first Part paying attention
To your knees also stretching and zhan zhuang to help
You sink and relax.


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## DaleDugas (Mar 10, 2012)

I would look at the position of your feet as turning your feet out past 45 degrees can put serious torque and strain on the knees.

I do nothing with my feet turned out more than 10-20 degrees.

No matter what master tells you to turn your feet more than 20 degrees. When you turn more than that your quads have been reduced to only two of the four muscles active in such poses.

Why would anyone do this?

Make all 4 quads come into your movement with little strain to your knees.


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## shesulsa (Mar 10, 2012)

Xue - Great One - I have so little knowledge of Yang style and am but a fledgling myself, but I have already noticed that there are moves and methods of shifting weight the instructors show that I simply won't do because I already know what it will do to my knees.  I alter the stance, I keep my knees carefully over my toes, I rotate on the balls of my feet rather than the heels (or, in the worst case scenario, one ball and one heel). This all leads to stances that are not always esthetically pleasing and perhaps incorrect for art preservation purposes, but my knees stay healthy and my foot (a long-term source of injury and pain) is *healing.*  

I suppose this is where *some* measure of compromise is made in the interest of my health.  

I hope you heal quickly and I promise to do some more reading on Yang Style and more learning.  I sincerely hope this helps.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2012)

Thanks and I wish it was a simple as length of workout but that I am fairly sure is not the issue. I can go down to my basement do 6 minutes (total) santi shi, 15 minutes on the exercise bike, 20 minutes Wuxingquan, and then work on kicks and punches and throw in some stretching and I feel pretty good. I can do a 20 minute routien that is part warm-up and part kick and strike drills with a bit of stretching and follow that with xingyiquan training and I have no issues. Do the Yang long form and only the Yang long form for 20 minutes and Im limping again and icing the knee. But then it could be length of time doing the form since I can to 24 form, which is considerably shorter and have no issues and I had not thought of that because me doing the long form, training at home, in 20 minutes is fast. At home I generally shoot for 30 minutes.

As for positioning of feet and knees; I do not think that is the issue because it has not been in the past but I am not exactly sure either, due to injury and downtime I could have developed some bad habits. The next time I do the form I shall watch that more closely. Or it could be the need to change positioning due to the injuries and again I am not sure about that but I will check.

I have been thinking about this since last nights ice treatment and I am beginning to think it may be a slow paced range of motion in combination with repetition issue. Also my stances tend to be a bit low, it is my lineage causing this, my stances come from Tung Ying Chieh and they tend to be little  lower than what you see from the Yang family these days.

Thank You :asian: The next time I do the long form, and it won't be today, I will watch my stances and alignments more closely


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## Danny T (Mar 10, 2012)

Xue, I train several martial arts with Yang style being one. I also have bad knees. Both have had surgery in the past and both knees have been damage again. According to my doctor my left knee needs to be replaced, surgery will only prolong the replacement for 12-18 months. However, my right knees hurts far more and swells often. I have started practicing my tai chi at a more natural higher stance and the knees do not hurt near as much. I do spent more time stretching and I do it at a slow relaxed rate and this also seems to help. I have been fortunate to have been training for almost 40 years and the number 1 thing I have learned is I have to adjust my training as my body has changed over the years. Train hard but train smart. The training system is a tool to be used to train your body and mind. Don't be a slave to the system. Use the system and make changes to accommodate your body.


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## East Winds (Mar 10, 2012)

Xue,

Sorry to hear about your problem. Without seeing your form, it is almost impossible to say what the problem might be. As you know, more advanced forms of Traditional Yang Family form, use weighted turns. If you are doing so, try reverting to the less stressful unweighted turns. As all the essences of Traditional Yang Family form are contained in the Section 1, try just doing this part of the form. It would be a great pity to give up Taijiquan altogether!!

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 20, 2012)

I just found out Chen Zenglei in my area soon and you know what...for the first time... I don't care....don't want to go...don't want to train Chen Taijiquan.... This too is telling me something


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## Brian King (Mar 20, 2012)

"Poznai Sebia - Discover yourself" Funny thing about injuries XS. Not always is it just a physical issue. Mind, body, spirit are connected and will be heard...eventually. 

Good luck
Regards
Brian King


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 20, 2012)

Brian King said:


> "Poznai Sebia - Discover yourself" Funny thing about injuries XS. Not always is it just a physical issue. Mind, body, spirit are connected and will be heard...eventually.
> 
> Good luck
> Regards
> Brian King



:hmm: That, that right there caused a light bulb to go on...Thank You :asian:


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Mar 21, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> my stances tend to be a bit low, it is my lineage causing this, my stances come from Tung Ying Chieh and they tend to be little lower than what you see from the Yang family these days.


If all else fails, you might try one or both of the following:

In the forward stance, bend your rear knee a little.  This is more of a Cheng Man Ching method than traditional Yang, but it makes it easier to avoid moving the front knee forward of the Bubbling Well point.  This takes some of the strain off the knee.

When stepping forward, place your foot fully on the floor (except for the big toe) before shifting your weight onto it.  As you shift, press your toe into the floor (fulfilling the "everything stops at once" rule).  This approach is favored by William C.C. Chen (who also uses higher stances, by the way).

Hope this helps.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 22, 2012)

Randy Strausbaugh said:


> If all else fails, you might try one or both of the following:
> 
> In the forward stance, bend your rear knee a little.  This is more of a Cheng Man Ching method than traditional Yang, but it makes it easier to avoid moving the front knee forward of the Bubbling Well point.  This takes some of the strain off the knee.



It is also in Yang as it comes form Tung Ying Chieh, just the stance is a bit wider.



Randy Strausbaugh said:


> When stepping forward, place your foot fully on the floor (except for the big toe) before shifting your weight onto it.  As you shift, press your toe into the floor (fulfilling the "everything stops at once" rule).  This approach is favored by William C.C. Chen (who also uses higher stances, by the way).
> 
> Hope this helps.



I will give this a try


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## geezer (Mar 23, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I just found out Chen Zenglei in my area soon and you know what...for the first time... I don't care....don't want to go...don't want to train Chen Taijiquan.... This too is telling me something



Xue, I haven't been following all your posts, or maybe I'd understand this comment better. As it is, I'm confused. Why, "for the first time", do you have no interest in learning Chen Taijiquan? Is it your knees, or is your cup already full with what you train now, or is it something else?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 23, 2012)

geezer said:


> Xue, I haven't been following all your posts, or maybe I'd understand this comment better. As it is, I'm confused. Why, "for the first time", do you have no interest in learning Chen Taijiquan? Is it your knees, or is your cup already full with what you train now, or is it something else?



The interest just isn't there.


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## Jenna (Mar 23, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> and I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing
> 
> After my knee injury when I got to a point where I could start training again I had the occasional knee issue so I would stop doing any training for a bit but after a while I would return to Traditional Yang style Taijiquan and then start Xingyiquan and a dash of Wing Chun and then my knee would start hurting and I would be back in a brace and have to stop again. I decided that Xingyiquan was the problem or possibly the Wing Chun stance needed for Sil lim Tao
> 
> ...


I think you should practice what you like practicing and follow your preferences.  Practice what makes you happiest.  If what makes you happiest also pains you physically then work out how to adapt that practice that it is comfortable?  Is that possible?  I think a mixed or ambivalent feeling is an indication of being unsettled with a decision, no?  I do not have sage advice.  In matters personal to you, only you have that sage advice.  

And but if you cannot decide on an answer to your dilemma then I would ask you an odd question: If you COULD decide on an answer to your dilemma, what would that answer be?


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## blindsage (Mar 26, 2012)

I too have pain at times in one of my knees.  I have discovered recently (through circle walking, sorry I know, I know) that the pain comes, at least partially because I am actually holding tension in my knees more than I realized in both my circle walking and my Yang practice.  I'm not saying it's the same for you, but always looking for places that we are holding tension can help with so damn many things.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2012)

blindsage said:


> I too have pain at times in one of my knees.  I have discovered recently (through circle walking, sorry I know, I know) that the pain comes, at least partially because I am actually holding tension in my knees more than I realized in both my circle walking and my Yang practice.  I'm not saying it's the same for you, but always looking for places that we are holding tension can help with so damn many things.



Tried to PM you....and I can't... your mail box is full


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## blindsage (Mar 30, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Tried to PM you....and I can't... your mail box is full


Maybe I'm causing the tension in your knees. :uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2012)

blindsage said:


> Maybe I'm causing the tension in your knees. :uhyeah:



Eureka I'm cured


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