# Sparring



## MJS (Nov 21, 2009)

This is a multi question thread, for the Arnis folks on the board.

1) What do you consider sparring to be?

2) Do you stick spar? If so, what do you feel are the pros/cons of it?


----------



## MJS (Nov 21, 2009)

To answer my own questions.

1) In a nutshell, sparring IMO, is what we'd see the Dog Bros. do.  This could be done with a real stick or with padded sticks, but there is obvious contact to the body, made.  There have been times when I've seen 2 people pair up.  One says to the other, Ok, lets spar, and the other person breaks into a tapi tapi drill or siniwali.  Needless to say, my jaw dropped. LOL!

2) Yes, I stick spar.  Protective gear is worn, however padded sticks are used.  Even with the padding, it still hurts like hell when you get hit.  

Pros:  You get to see, real time, what works and what doesn't.  It gets you used to a fast pace.  It certainly gets you used to heavy contact.  Again, even with the padding, I've had some pretty good welts and bruises.   You often have to adapt and make some changes to what you'd normally do, in a non sparring setting.  Disarms are possible, but they're not going to look pretty, or look like what you'd typically see.

Cons: You dont really get to work on something specific, such as a textbook disarm, but thats what the drilling is for.


----------



## MJS (Nov 23, 2009)

Oh come on now...almost 100 views and I'm the only one replying???  Am I the only one that does this?   I know we have more Arnis people on here aside from myself.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 23, 2009)

Not knowing any Arnis. The purpose of sparring is to work on something specific. So, I will be so bold as to assume sparring in Arnis would be to embolden some move, concept, theory, or priciple. How am I doing?
Sean


----------



## ap Oweyn (Nov 23, 2009)

1) What do I consider sparring to be?  The lab, I suppose.  Your chance to experiment with technique and work out the small variables that make performance succeed or fail.  Because that's really what it comes down to, in my view.  It's not a question of better techniques nearly as often as it's a question of having the angles, timing, combinations, and other attributes that make basic technique work properly.  And you can't learn those variables within the confines of a scripted exchange.

That said, sparring is one of several ways of getting to "the truth."  I view it as triangulating the facts.  Everyone points out that sparring isn't fighting.  And that's obviously the case.  Nothing but fighting is fighting.  And, honestly, I doubt that's ever the same experience twice anyway, because of all the variables that come into play in a genuine fighting experience.  But sparring, in concert with other training methods, will supply pieces of the puzzle unavailable elsewhere.

2) Do I spar?  If so, what are the pros and cons?

I do, absolutely.  In the early 90s, I competed in the WEKAF format.  Now, I do more padded stick and not under a particular organization.  Just as the "lab component" of my training group.

I don't see any cons to sparring overall.  I think it's easier to think of the pros and cons of various formats.  Those vary from granting an unrealistic sense of invulnerability to sticks to the opposite end of the spectrum, a high injury rate that leaves you worse off than you were before.  Which seems antithetical to the notion of self-defense.

(I'm not describing specific formats above, by the way.  Just the two ends of the spectrum.  I know DB sparring is very intense, but you don't hear a lot about life-altering injuries coming out of even that format.)

But yeah, long story short, if you aren't sparring, I don't see how you could possibly be answering the questions you ought to be asking of yourself.


Stuart


----------



## Dan Anderson (Nov 23, 2009)

MJS said:


> This is a multi question thread, for the Arnis folks on the board.
> 
> 1) What do you consider sparring to be?


 
There are a couple of kinds of sparring. Fixed, Semi-freestyle and freestyle sparring. Fixed are the different types of drills taught, e.g. 6 count, tapi-tapi and the like. Semi-freesytle is where you do these drills with the intention of breaking out of them and throowing something out of the box at your partner (an agreed upon 'screw your buddy' approach). Freestlye is just that - unrehearsed free fighting.



> 2) Do you stick spar? If so, what do you feel are the pros/cons of it?


Yes, we do. I use padded canes and only hand pads. I spar much like American point fighting except that only bone targets are counted (they shatter upon impact) and good shots are acknowledged while sliding shots, 'meat shots' and misses are ignored. A bit of control is needed for the head shots but no one had been take out yet.

Pros: it teaches you distance, timing, motion defense and targeting.
Cons: only sparring will put you in a pickle if you don't have the closer range drills to train your hands and eyes.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## MJS (Nov 24, 2009)

Touch Of Death said:


> Not knowing any Arnis. The purpose of sparring is to work on something specific. So, I will be so bold as to assume sparring in Arnis would be to embolden some move, concept, theory, or priciple. How am I doing?
> Sean


 
IMO, drilling is where we're working on the specifics.  If we apply that to empty hand concepts, it could be viewed as working focus pad drills...a specific thing, a specific combo.  Back to the ring...yes, of course you want to apply those things in a more 'live' fashion, but just like the empty hand drills that we work, ie: focus mitts, at a faster pace, while it may be possible to pull off parts, it will be very different.  In ohter words...Ive yet to see anyone pull off a textbook stick disarm, such as whats done during regular training.


----------



## MJS (Nov 24, 2009)

Dan Anderson said:


> There are a couple of kinds of sparring. Fixed, Semi-freestyle and freestyle sparring. Fixed are the different types of drills taught, e.g. 6 count, tapi-tapi and the like. Semi-freesytle is where you do these drills with the intention of breaking out of them and throowing something out of the box at your partner (an agreed upon 'screw your buddy' approach). Freestlye is just that - unrehearsed free fighting.
> 
> 
> Yes, we do. I use padded canes and only hand pads. I spar much like American point fighting except that only bone targets are counted (they shatter upon impact) and good shots are acknowledged while sliding shots, 'meat shots' and misses are ignored. A bit of control is needed for the head shots but no one had been take out yet.
> ...


 
Thanks for your reply Dan. 

The only part that I'd like to comment on and further discuss, is the first part.  I view the tapi tapi drills, the siniwalli drills, 6 count, etc., as drills.  Almost like a 2 man set or kata, that we'd see in a Karate or Kenpo system.  Preset patterns, where we know what the other person is going to do, and we respond accordingly.  

If we pick up the pace, where things'll be a bit more unpredictable, while we _may_ be able to pull off pieces of those 'drills' the rest is going to be responding just like we would if we were doing empty hand point fighting.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 24, 2009)

I always have thought that if the Professor could do it all over again he would have dropped the semi freestyle sparring and just call them drills.  MJS I am with you on this in that typically sparring across martial systems indicates two opponents going at it live with resistance.  Meaning there may be some rules that they are playing within but they are getting after each other and it is not a drill.   

Sparring is just one more area that helps your training!


----------



## stickarts (Nov 24, 2009)

Professor Presas addressed sparring in his book " Stick fighting". He described two types of sparring: basic and freestyle. Basic is somewhat choreographed and the intent is to work with each other and learn. Freestyle is not prearranged and the intent is to subdue the opponent.
I worked a lot of the basic sparring with Prof. and when he taught it to me he called it De cadena. This was before all the tapi tapi drills came along.
The basic sparring is required in my curriculum. The freestyle is covered and encouraged but it's not for everyone. Not everyone wants to take it to that level. The freestyle is an eyeopener, can be fun to do and to watch! A great learning experience.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 24, 2009)

I usually think of three levels or formats for sparring, whether armed or unarmed.

The first level is almost like a reaction drill or partner drill, or even one-step type exercises.  It's scripted; both partners are working, but it's very focused.  

The second type is what I call assigned role sparring, or offense/defense.  Each partner has an assigned role; you may even limit it even further, and not allow counter-attacks or defensive attacks or only allow specific techniques -- but if you're working on offense, you're not worrying about when the other guy is going to punch you, and if you're on defense, you don't have to try to figure out how to hit the guy.

The last approach is free sparring; the roles aren't assigned. You may still limit the range of techniques permitted -- but you'll have to worry about the other guy punching you while you think about how to punch him.


----------



## MJS (Nov 25, 2009)

I guess every org. is different then, because my group calls them drills.  IMO, calling them anything other, is misleading.  I wouldn't call siniwalli, 6 count or anything else, sparring, anymore than I'd call focus mitt drills sparring.  Its a drill.  The person holding the pads, holds them for preset combos, thrown by the other person.  Both parties know full well, what the other person is going to do and adjusts accordingly.  Ex: The puncher throws a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, and the holder moves the pads for those punches.


----------



## stickarts (Nov 25, 2009)

There is always going to be different terminology between different arts, and sometimes even between different schools or organizations within the same art! In regard to sparring in Modern arnis, the founder of the art spelled it out in his book. I believe he also demonstrated it in his old videos. If you read his book or learned from him, you know the types of sparring in Modern Arnis and when you hear the term " sparring" you understand the possible meanings in Modern Arnis. I have also found the approach to make sense. The fixed or semi-fixed sparring helps develop the students skills before graduating to the freestyle. The semi-fixed sparring that Prof. did with me was still pretty intense. Anyone that had it done on them will agree.  I did my best to come away unhurt!
I agree that Sinawali and six count, etc.. are drills, however, those drills or elements of them may be taken and added to the sparring. Sparring is a mix of everything. If you look up sparring in the dictionary, even it has different meanings! It's a terminolgy thing to some extent.
Different things can work for different people at different times. Each person posting here may not have the exact same terminology or approach, but each may have their own validity.
Thats my 3 cents on sparring. ( up from 2 cents due to the economy )


----------



## MJS (Nov 25, 2009)

stickarts said:


> There is always going to be different terminology between different arts, and sometimes even between different schools or organizations within the same art! In regard to sparring in Modern arnis, the founder of the art spelled it out in his book. I believe he also demonstrated it in his old videos. If you read his book or learned from him, you know the types of sparring in Modern Arnis and when you hear the term " sparring" you understand the possible meanings in Modern Arnis. I have also found the approach to make sense. The fixed or semi-fixed sparring helps develop the students skills before graduating to the freestyle. The semi-fixed sparring that Prof. did with me was still pretty intense. Anyone that had it done on them will agree.  I did my best to come away unhurt!
> I agree that Sinawali and six count, etc.. are drills, however, those drills or elements of them may be taken and added to the sparring. Sparring is a mix of everything. If you look up sparring in the dictionary, even it has different meanings! It's a terminolgy thing to some extent.
> Different things can work for different people at different times. Each person posting here may not have the exact same terminology or approach, but each may have their own validity.
> Thats my 3 cents on sparring. ( up from 2 cents due to the economy )


 
Its been a while since I've looked at the book, but I will take the time to read that sparring section again.  I don't disagree that the drills are not important, in addition to using parts of them, which I did comment on in another post.  However, I'm still not convinced that a drill or pattern, in its original form, is sparring.  Sparring isn't preset.


----------



## stickarts (Nov 25, 2009)

MJS said:


> Its been a while since I've looked at the book, but I will take the time to read that sparring section again. I don't disagree that the drills are not important, in addition to using parts of them, which I did comment on in another post. However, I'm still not convinced that a drill or pattern, in its original form, is sparring. Sparring isn't preset.


 
I understand what you are saying! What I am saying is that in Modern Arnis, according to its founder, there is ( or was ) a pre-arranged form of sparring! This is not my opinion! It is in the book and it was taught by RP! I did not state that a drill is sparring. I stated that the drills or elements of them may be added into sparring! Feel free to stop by and we can work it.


----------



## stickarts (Nov 25, 2009)

Here is an example of how elements of a drill is part of, or can be added to the semi- freestyle stick sparring. As odd coincidence would have it, this thread on arnis sparring was posted shortly after I posted my clip.  The stick sparring starts with a single sinawali motion. Also if you see a punyo drill in the clip, elements of that can be added to the sparring as well. in this clip at this level I just show entry and exit. It is not misleading to call it sparring. It was always part of Modern Arnis, or at least I can tell you that The Prof. worked me hard on it and he called it sparring. That's good enough for me. He was the founder of the art.
Here's the clip.


----------



## MJS (Nov 26, 2009)

stickarts said:


> I understand what you are saying! What I am saying is that in Modern Arnis, according to its founder, there is ( or was ) a pre-arranged form of sparring! This is not my opinion! It is in the book and it was taught by RP! I did not state that a drill is sparring. I stated that the drills or elements of them may be added into sparring! Feel free to stop by and we can work it.


 
Of course, I have to wonder....due to the lawsuit happy world that we live in, compared to areas of the world where contact is not frowned upon, I have to wonder if changes were made to suit the needs and/or demands of the people here.  Actually, when Brian was in the PI a few years back, he did comment on the differences that some of the Masters there, were doing, when executing things.  Perhaps this link will explain my point of view a bit better. Some parts that caught my eye:

"We come to the question of speaking publicly on it. And to be clear, I don't advocate that for everyone. In fact, the only thing I believe matters is that we are honest within *our own self* about *our own intentions*. And that we remain skeptical, and question all forms, and statements of authority. . .*for ourselves*."

*"What do you mean by timing, energy, & motion?*
For something to be truly alive in what we do then it has have three key elements, movement, timing, and energy (resistance). If you are missing any one of these then it is not Alive. 
*Movement* means real footwork, not contrived, not in a pattern... on the ground it means exactly that also... movement... if the person is just laying there, not moving as you apply your lock or move....that is not Alive. In the clinch its the same... pushing, pulling, moving. 
*Timing* is of course just that... if its in a predictable rhythm, a pattern, a repeatable series of sets, then you are not acquiring or developing timing, just motion speed. 
And of course *energy*... swing the stick like someone would really swing it... don't stop at centerline. Punch with the energy of someone who wants to hit you. Not locking your arm out so your partner can look good doing the destruction, or trap, or silat sweep, etc. 
You must *move*, have a sense of *timing*, and *progressive resistance."*


*"Why do you think there are a lot of Instructors that are still not teaching with Aliveness? *
Two reasons. One is they don't know how yet. They honestly just don't know exactly what Aliveness is. Two is fear. They are smart enough to know what Aliveness is, but the curriculum that such a principle would demand is something they are scared to get into 100% of the time. They have too much they would need to throw away, or stop teaching. They have a position or reputation that they have spent Years developing, and they feel like they have come to far to step back and admit that perhaps they where wrong in the past, and that there is a better way. That's to bad, because that attitude prevents growth, and produces fear. Fear leads to anger, and that anger comes out as a defensive reaction. You have to be willing to *let go*. "

And IMO, the most important one:

*"How would you teach someone with zero experience how to stick fight then? As an example, how to enter and counter off a forehand or backhand swing?*
1) Demonstrate a move that I feel will get them there. As an example a cover an crash. 
2)Have both people gear up, (as little gear as possible). Have one party swing a forehand at the other. . .starting slower, but pulling through with the strike. Again progressive resistance.
As this is done the other person attempts to perform the skill you are trying to coach...in this case, cover and crash without eating the blow. As they get better we increase the resistance, and add a back hand. Within 5-10 minutes this should lead to one side feeding a random forehand or backhand, while the other side attempts to cover and crash. 
After about 15-20 minutes we would probably just finish with some sparring if this is where the participants want to go with it. The level of intensity and type of equipment used there would depend on the level the Athlete was comfortable with. 
This is how we coach armbars, jabs, kicks, double leg takedowns, sprawls, and stickfighting. 
It's the first stage of drilling and we refer to it as the: *I method* 
*Introduce* (should only take a few minutes, if not it is probably to complicated for the participants) 
*Isolate* (Isolation sparring in an Alive way) 
*Incorporate* (Add into your total game) 
Nobody needs to gets hurt, there are no memorized patterns, no contrived footwork, it's all random and real. When they move to the sparring 'stage', nothing needs to be 'tweaked' or modified, because they where trained correctly from day one. There is nothing to fix. There is no box pattern. It's fun, and students like it. 
As an experiment, or just for a change of pace, try this:
Teach one group of students using sombrada/hubud progressions, and then work them through all the different 'stages' you have to sparring. And, at the same time have another group that just drills completely Alive, as I described above. No patterns, no hubud, no B.S., just sparring drills against progressive resistance. Then have them spar each other. The results should interest you, and more then anything else make my point."

One more:

*"But, would I have had the muscle memory or coordination with/without the drill? *
What would you say if I threw a right cross in sparring, after being taught reverse punches and Karate blocks. And then when it was pointed out to me that my cross didn't look anything like my reverse punches and karate blocks I stated, 
"True, but would I have had the muscle memory or coordination with/without the drill? Personally, I don't think so." 
It just makes no sense. 
*Why do so many JKD/Kali Instructors still teach drills like Sombrada, and hubud then?*
My gods honest guess is that most Instructors simply don't know how else to do it. Since they don't understand how to drill they fear they will lose students by teaching Alive. They believe that students 'want' or need these drills. Or that to stay in business they have to do it this way. 
Again, that is a fallacy. There are much better ways to teach. Just as safe, just as easy to learn, just as fun, and far more functional."



stickarts said:


> Here is an example of how elements of a drill is part of, or can be added to the semi- freestyle stick sparring. As odd coincidence would have it, this thread on arnis sparring was posted shortly after I posted my clip.  The stick sparring starts with a single sinawali motion. Also if you see a punyo drill in the clip, elements of that can be added to the sparring as well. in this clip at this level I just show entry and exit. It is not misleading to call it sparring. It was always part of Modern Arnis, or at least I can tell you that The Prof. worked me hard on it and he called it sparring. That's good enough for me. He was the founder of the art.
> Here's the clip.


 
See above comments regarding the sparring, drills, etc. As for the thread....I was having a discussion on sparring with some fellow FMAists. No ill intent between the timing of your clip and the start of this thread.  And likewise, the offer is there, from Brian I believe, to join our group at our BB workouts.


----------



## stickarts (Nov 26, 2009)

Thanks for the info! Your thread is about sparring and it's in the Modern Arnis forum! Sparring in Modern Arnis was defined by the Grand Master of Modern Arnis! My point was that regardless of your preference, pre-arranged sparring has been part of Modern Arnis. You are straying from the point! If now you are now saying it's in FMA in general, then perhaps this discussion would have been better suited in the FMA area?
Thanks for the invite. I actually taught a session at your April BB session. I didn't see you there.  Sorry you missed it. It was a good group and a lot of fun. As an aside, the stick sparring seems to be popular based on what I saw in seminars and on my DVD sales. The stick sparring is one of the top sellers.
Thanks for the discussion all. Have a great holiday!


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 26, 2009)

I put sparring into two basic classifications. Semi - Sparring and Free Sparring. 

1. Tapi - Tapi, Hubod, Sumbrada, etc. are Semi - Sparring. 

2. Two people with stick trying to hit each other is Free Sparring. 

From there I further divide sparring into Point, Continuous and MMA Sparring. We do all three at my school and all bring different attributes and skills to the table.

If you look in Remy's pink book you'll see that there are rules for free sparring. The funny thing is that he never had up do it. Of course that never stopped me. I was always the first one in and the last one out when it came doing things outside the box. 
 		  		  		 		    		 		 			 				__________________


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 26, 2009)

MJS said:


> To answer my own questions.
> 
> There have been times when I've seen 2 people pair up.  One says to the other, Ok, lets spar, and the other person breaks into a tapi tapi drill or siniwali.  Needless to say, my jaw dropped. LOL!



I know what you mean. The interesting think is watching their first introduction to Free sparring!


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 26, 2009)

MJS said:


> Cons: You dont really get to work on something specific, such as a textbook disarm, but thats what the drilling is for.


I wouldn't say that it's a con as much finding the right tool for the job. The disarms that GM Remy taught us are designed for self defense, where the opponent is making committed attacks. In sparring we have an energy more like a boxer's jab.


----------



## MJS (Nov 26, 2009)

stickarts said:


> Thanks for the info! Your thread is about sparring and it's in the Modern Arnis forum! Sparring in Modern Arnis was defined by the Grand Master of Modern Arnis! My point was that regardless of your preference, pre-arranged sparring has been part of Modern Arnis. You are straying from the point! If now you are now saying it's in FMA in general, then perhaps this discussion would have been better suited in the FMA area?


 
I understand that.  I'm saying that while that may be the case, perhaps it is because of what I said in my last post...that perhaps due to the differences in the 2 countries, he did it for safety purposes.  Not sure what I'm straying from, as I posted that link as a solid example of things that can be applied to not only Modern Arnis, but to any art.  I also stated that when my teacher went to the PI, he stated to me that things were done differently there compared to the way we do things here.  Same art, but yet things are different.  Hmm....





> Thanks for the invite. I actually taught a session at your April BB session. I didn't see you there.  Sorry you missed it. It was a good group and a lot of fun. As an aside, the stick sparring seems to be popular based on what I saw in seminars and on my DVD sales. The stick sparring is one of the top sellers.
> Thanks for the discussion all. Have a great holiday!


 
I was most likely working that day.  Unfortunately, alot of the things I'd like to do, fall on weekends, and I get a full weekend off about every 13 weeks.  I did hear about your session though.


----------



## MJS (Nov 26, 2009)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I put sparring into two basic classifications. Semi - Sparring and Free Sparring.
> 
> 1. Tapi - Tapi, Hubod, Sumbrada, etc. are Semi - Sparring.
> 
> ...


 
Yes, I looked in the pink book last night.  I am curious though...you said that he never had people do it.  Why was that?  I'm glad to see that you enjoyed it. 



Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I know what you mean. The interesting think is watching their first introduction to Free sparring!


 
Yeah, it is an eye opener.   IMHO, I think its good to take people out of their comfort zone and force them into a zone that isn't as relaxed.



Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I wouldn't say that it's a con as much finding the right tool for the job. The disarms that GM Remy taught us are designed for self defense, where the opponent is making committed attacks. In sparring we have an energy more like a boxer's jab.


 
But wouldn't you say that in the sparring, there are still committed attacks?  I mean, when I watch a Dog Bros. clip, I see some shots that have that 'take your head off' intent.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 26, 2009)

MJS said:


> But wouldn't you say that in the sparring, there are still committed attacks?  I mean, when I watch a Dog Bros. clip, I see some shots that have that 'take your head off' intent.


It's different. Remy's basic disarms that he taught the masses weren't designed to work against educated fighters. At least not the the way he taught them on the seminar floor. What I was taught on the side or when we were alone was a lot different.  


MJS said:


> Yes, I looked in the pink book last night. I am curious though...you said that he never had people do it. Why was that? I'm glad to see that you enjoyed it.


I have several theories but it's probably best to say that we didn't have easy access to the proper training equipment.


----------



## MJS (Nov 26, 2009)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> It's different. Remy's basic disarms that he taught the masses weren't designed to work against educated fighters. At least not the the way he taught them on the seminar floor. What I was taught on the side or when we were alone was a lot different.


 
So, is it safe to say then that things were changed due to the country that we was teaching in (US) vs. where he came from (PI)? 



> I have several theories but it's probably best to say that we didn't have easy access to the proper training equipment.


 
I'm willing to hear the other theories, if you're willing to share them. Feel free to PM me if you wish. If not, thats cool.  I do agree though, proper equipment is necessary.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 26, 2009)

MJS said:


> So, is it safe to say then that things were changed due to the country that we was teaching in (US) vs. where he came from (PI)?


I wouldn't say what country as much as what kind of opponent you were training for. He taught the masses FMA concepts applied to Self Defense. In the PI FMA is the minority in the martial arts community just like in the rest of the world.



MJS said:


> I'm willing to hear the other theories, if you're willing to share them. Feel free to PM me if you wish. If not, thats cool.  I do agree though, proper equipment is necessary.


What's a good number to call you on? I have free long distance.


----------



## MJS (Nov 26, 2009)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I wouldn't say what country as much as what kind of opponent you were training for. He taught the masses FMA concepts applied to Self Defense. In the PI FMA is the minority in the martial arts community just like in the rest of the world.


 
Ok.




> What's a good number to call you on? I have free long distance.


 
I'll shoot you a PM.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 26, 2009)

MJS said:


> Ok.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good. I'm just kicking back and relaxing.


----------

