# ZNKR vs. ZNIR?



## arnisador (Nov 26, 2003)

I was doing some reading on iaido recently (on the web) and it appears to me from what I've read that, contrary to what I had thought before, the Zen Nihon Kendo Renmei and the Zen Nihon Iaido Renmei have different seteigata (or perhaps on ZNKR has standard kata). (Some light is shed on this here.) Is that so? Are the ZNKR's 12 techniques the ones usually seen? What are the ZNIR's standard techniques, if any?

One site describes the setei kata as Zen Ken Ren Iaido (formerly known as seitei iai).

It also says that in ZNKR the highest dan grade is now 8. I know some Kendo schools do that and standard naginata-do only goes to 5. What is the reasoning behind this?


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## Will Schutt (Nov 30, 2003)

The ZNKR (Zen Nippon *Kendo* Renmei) is different from the ZNIR (Zen Nippon *Iaido* Renmei) and thus they would have different standardized sets.  I wouldn't pay much attention to the site you referenced.

Zen Ken Iai is something like 12 techniques (I don't do them, so I'm not sure).  From my understanding, this set was created to teach kendoka how to handle a real sword (as opposed to a shinai or bokken).  It was also expected to be a stepping stone to a traditional style of iai.

ZNIR's Toho is a set of 5 techniques from the various member ryuha.  These techniques were given to the ZNIR to form a common set which all members could practice and demonstrate at taikai (a demo/competition of sorts).  These are practiced in addition to one's particular style of iai.

Zen Ken Iai is far more popular (especially here in the US) because the ZNKR/IKF (International Kendo Federation) is a much larger organization.  One is more likely to find iai attached to a kendo group than to find iai by itself, that also happens to practice toho.


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## arnisador (Nov 30, 2003)

I've seen ZNKR in the States pretty often but don't think I've seen ZNIR--including that I have several iaido books that show the 12 techniques of ZNKR but don't recall ever seeing one that showed the techniques of the ZNIR.

I can't find the ZNIR home page! I'd like to see their kata. Does anyone know it?


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## Will Schutt (Nov 30, 2003)

I don't know if the ZNIR has a home page, but if they do I'm sure it is Japanese language only.  

The only book that I can think of that describes the Toho is Suino's "The Art of Japanese Swordsmanship" which is mostly Eishin-ryu Iai.

The ZNIR Toho is:

Eishin-ryu no Maegiri
Mugai-ryu no Zengogiri
Shindo Munen-ryu no Kiriage
Suio-ryu no Shihogiri
Hoki-ryu no Kissaki Gaeshi


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## arnisador (Nov 30, 2003)

Ah, that _is_ on my shelves! He lists them at the end of the "Advanced Techniques" section as "Sword Methods" so I had simply assumed they were something specific to Eishin-Ryu! Thanks!


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## Charles Mahan (Dec 2, 2003)

Will is absolutely correct.  I'd just like to add that the demonstration of 1 toho is a required part of ZNIR rank exams.  That said, That toho waza is 1 of between about 5 and 8 or 9 in total.  The remaining waza come from the students koryu curriculum.  Very little weight is actually put on the toho portion of the exam from what I understand.

Another difference between the Seitei of ZNKR and the Toho of ZNIR is that there is no one anywhere who only teaches the toho waza.  In other words, there are no ZNIR only dojos.  There are kendo dojos that teach seitei but do not teach any koryu iaido.  That's not true of toho.  Toho is an extra set that the various member styles of the ZNIR are expected to learn so that they will have some common ground to stand on at gatherings of the renmei.

As I understand it, Zen Ken Ren Iaido is a shorthand name for the Seitei gata iaido techniques of the Zen Nippon Kendo Renmei.  

There are only 5 dojos in the US that are affiliated with the ZNIR and a handful of study groups associated with one of those dojos.

The Canadian Iaido Association is affiliated with the ZNIR and they do have a website http://www.iaido.ca

Hope this helps.


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## arnisador (Dec 2, 2003)

It does, thanks!

Is there a pattern as to which iaido groups/styles prefer ZNKR and which prefer ZNIR?


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## Charles Mahan (Dec 3, 2003)

Actually as I understand it there is no small amount of dual membership.  It is also not uncommon for some of the older gentleman to slowly transition from ZNKR to ZNIR.  Which is to say, away from Kendo and towards koryu iai.  Most of the top folks in ZNIR were big kendoka when they were younger.

ZNIR is purely koryu arts and as such tend to have a great deal of attraction for aging kendoka.  In addition, iai practice tends to be a lower impact form of exercise.  Kinda like the difference between lifting weights and high impact aerobics.  You can lift weights till the day you die, but you can only bounce around so long before you start busting joints.  

The ZNKR world does have koryu arts associated with it.  ZNKR does encourage it's membership to move into koryu arts as students become more and more proficient.  Muso Shinden Ryu seems to be the dominant koryu associated with ZNKR but there are others from what I understand.  The ZNIR consists of many koryu, but the over all membership of ZNIR is very heavily dominated by the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Seitokai, which is considered to be the "main line" of Eishin Ryu and is currently headed by Ikeda Soke.

There are other organizations outside of ZNKR and ZNIR, but those two are by a fair margin the larger umbrella organizations in Japan.

Take my statements about ZNKR with a grain of salt.  I am not a Kendo Renmei guy, and most of what I have related to you is second hand knowledge.   It is consistent with what I have learned about the Kendo Renmei over the last few years of online forum dabling.


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## FastEd (Dec 3, 2003)

I think Charles statements are essentially correct.  I would only point out that it is all a matter of focus.  People who just study Iai in the Kendo Federation are just as focused on the Koryu as any one in the Iaido Federation.  The only difference is the Sensei who teaches you, and where you pay your dues.  I take it in Japan that ZNKR and ZNIR Iai people do not mix much (bad history I am told).  But over hear the pond is small, and there have been many mixed seminars and joint demonstrations with Kendo Fed. and Iaido Fed. people. 
        As to a pattern of who joins what organization, in N.A. its all about location.  I would find the closest Dojo to me, ZNKR/ZNIR would not matter at all.   In fact if I lived near Ray Sensei in Texas, my 13 years in the Kendo Federation would not stop me for a second from joining his Dojo.


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## Charles Mahan (Dec 4, 2003)

I would generally agree that there is less bad blood on this side of the pond, but it is true that many of the big dog ZNIR folks were at one point or another pretty big inside the ZNKR world as well.  While there are some organizational differences between the two renmei, I don't think that necessarily spills over into the general membership.

That said, I wouldn't say that there were "many" joint demonstrations between ZNIR and ZNKR, but they are not unheard of either.  I know Scott Irey, up Seattle way has been to a few, and Ray-sensei has appeared in Guelph a few times, but that's all I know of.


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## FastEd (Dec 4, 2003)

Well I've seen Ray Sensei twice up here in Guelph, considering the number of big seminars going on over here I think that is sort of "many".  But maybe I exagerate abit .


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## Charles Mahan (Dec 4, 2003)

I see what you're saying.  They're really aren't a lot of big ZNKR or ZNIR seminars that feature open enrollment.  

Of course, you have a CIA member not too far away I think.  James Broadwell in Oshawa.


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