# Let's debate lightness



## Zeny

This forum seems a pretty sad place due to lack of activity. Let's liven it up a little.

I belong to the camp which believes that it is absolutely essential to empty the whole body completely of ANY force. It took a lot of thought, experimentation and time for me to be able to accept the simple fact (that my teacher has always been saying) that i ought to use lightness and no force to push someone. When i finally 'got it', it is pretty hard to go back to the way it was.

Anyone wish to have a friendly debate with me and say that i am wrong?


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## mograph

Nope. 

But to those who _do_ want to debate, it would be a good idea to first define terms such as _empty the body,_ _lightness_, _force_, _no force_.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Nope.
> 
> first define terms such as _empty the body,_ _lightness_, _force_, _no force_.



What mograph said


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## Zeny

Force is pretty difficult to define, for there are many ways to generate force.

No force is pretty easy to define. It means lightness (using only one or two ounces). The recipient of a no force push would not feel any pain, only a light touch like that coming from a mere toddler.

Empty the body means completely rid the body of any movement or tendency to create more than one or two ounces of force.


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## oaktree

Here is how I see it like holding a rope you don't want to be so loose that it falls out of your hand,
You don't want to be so stiff that there is no slack if need to be, you want to be Peng.
Same as a guitar to loose makes no sound, to tight it breaks you tune it to have the correct stretch to produce the correct pitch. 
I am thinking of no force as no tension or muscle force vs a relaxed force. My toddler actually pushes pretty hard


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## Zeny

When i say no force it literally means no force. In your guitar example, no force would mean the loose string that produces no sound. It is precisely the fact that it makes no sound which makes it scary.

No force is not relaxed force. It literally means no force.


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## oaktree

So there is no peng, just a limp wet noodle of an arm?


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## Zeny

Your post made me laugh, thanks. Yeah, that's it. Not only the arm, but the whole body. I'm waiting for someone to come along and say that i am wrong so as to spark a debate. C'mon, say it.


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## EddieCyrax

if the whole body is limp, with no force, how does one "push" someone even with an ounce of force?.....Can you define "Push"?

It takes muscle contraction to raise your arms and keep them extended...thus not limp....

Confused?!?


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## mograph

Zeny said:


> When i say no force it literally means no force.



Definition of TAUTOLOGY

When one attempts to define a term, it's good practice to use different words to avoid a tautology.

(This is one reason why the internal martial arts have a bad reputation in some quarters: tautological definitions.)


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## oaktree

Are we talking limp in form, in push hands, applications?  I can agree with a relax, peng type of feeling however a limp, collapsed structure I don't think so. I have felt my teacher uses a light touch to stick and listen as a way to over extend me. If I recall in stepping a step should not be so empty that it breaks structure and being limp would definitely do so. But it really depends on example you give on this empty force.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Zeny said:


> i ought to use lightness and no force to *push* someone.


May I ask why do you use the word "push"? How about "punch" or "kick"? Could you describe how you will "punch" someone's face by using "lightness and no force"?



Zeny said:


> No force is not relaxed force. It literally means no force.


If someone hire you to use a slate hammer to knock down a 2 store concrete building, will you be able to complete that task by using "no force"?


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## Xue Sheng

Zeny said:


> Your post made me laugh, thanks. Yeah, that's it. Not only the arm, but the whole body. I'm waiting for someone to come along and say that i am wrong so as to spark a debate. C'mon, say it.



Actually, by all things taijiquan and Internal martial arts...limp/wet noodle is wrong...sorry. If you are limp that means no energy and you are a ragdoll laying on the ground., like this







Is that what you are trying to say?

You might want to familiarize yourself with these

The Ten Essentials of Taijiquan
*Narrated by Yang Cheng Fu
Recorded by Chen Wei Ming*
_From the book "Yang Style Taijiquan" by Yang Zhen Duo_

*1. Straightening The Head*

Stand straight and hold the head and neck naturally erect, with the mind concentrated on the top. Do not strain or be tense; otherwise, the blood and vital energy cannot circulate smoothly.

*2. Correct Position Of Chest And Back*

Keep the chest slightly inward, which will enable you to sink your breath to the dan tian (lower belly). Do not protrude your chest, otherwise you will feel uneasy in breathing and somewhat "top heavy".

Great force can be launched onlly when you keep the vital energy in your lower belly.

*3. Relaxation Of Waist*

For the human body, the waist is the dominant part. When you relax the waist, your two feet will be strong enough to form a firm base. All the movements depend on the action of the waist, as the saying goes: "Vital force comes from the waist". Inaccurate movements in taijiquan stem from erroneous actions of the waist.

*4. Solid And Empty Stance*

It is of primary importance in taijiquan to distinguish between "Xu" (Empty) and "Shi" (Solid). If you shift the weight of the body on to the right leg, then the right leg is solidly planted on the ground and the left leg is in an empty stance. When your weight is on the left leg, then the left leg is firmly planted on the ground and the right leg is in an empty stance. Only in this way can you turn and move your body adroitly and without effort, otherwise you will be slow and clumsy in your movements and not able to remain stable and firm on your feet.

*5. Sinking Of Shoulders And Elbows*

Keep your shoulder in a natural, relaxed position. If you lift your shoulders, the qi will rise with them and the whole body will be without strength. You should also keep the elbows down, otherwise you will not be able to keep your shoulders relaxed and move your body with ease.

*6. Using The Mind Instead Of Force*

Among the people who practise taijiquan, it is quite common to hear this comment: "That is entirely using the mind, not force". In practising taijiquan, the whole body is relaxed, and there is not an iota of stiff or clumsy strength in the veins or joints to hinder the movement of the body. People may ask: How can one increase his strength without exercising force? According to taditional Chinese medicine, there is in the human body a system of pathways called jingluo (or meridian) which link the viscera with different parts of the body, making the human body an integrated whole. If the jingluo is not impeded, then the vital energy will circulate in the body unobstructed. But if the jingluo is filled with stiff strength, the vital energy will not be able to circulate and consequently the body cannot move with ease. One should therefore use the mind instead of force, so that vital energy will follow in the wake of the mind or conciousness and circulate all over the body. Through persistant practice one will be able to have genuine internal force. This is what taijiquan experts call "Lithe in appearance, but powerful in essence".

A master of Taijiquan has arms which are as strong as steel rods wrapped in cotton with immense power concealed therein. Boxers of the "Outer School" (a branch of wush with emphasis on attack, as opposed to the "Inner School" which places the emphasis on defence) look powerful when they exert force but when they cease to do so, the power no longer exists. So it is merely a kind of superficial force.

*7. Coordination Of Upper And Lower Parts*

According to the theory of taijiquan, the root is in the feet, the force is launched through the legs, controlled by the waist and expressed by the fingers; the feet, the legs and the waist form a harmonious whole. When the hands, the waist and the legs move, the eyes should follow their movements. This is meant by coordingation of the upper and lower parts. If any part should cease to move, then the movements will be disconnected and fall into disarray.

*8. Harmony Between The Internal And External Parts*

In practising taijiquan, the focus is on the mind and conciousness. Hence the saying: "The mind is the commander, the body is subservient to it". With the tranquility of the mind, the movements will be gentle and graceful. As far as the "frame" is concerned, there are only the Xu (empty), shi (solid), kai (open) and he (close). Kai not only means opening the four lims but the mind as well, he means closing the mind along with the four limbs. Perfection is achieved when one unifies the two and harmonizes the internal and external parts into a complete whole.

*9. Importance Of Continuity*

In the case of the "Outer School" (which emphasizes attack) of boxing, the strength one exerts is still and the movements are not continuous, but are sometimes made off and on, which leaves opening the opponent may take advantage of. In taijiquan, one focuses the attention on the mind instead of force, and the movements from the begenning to the end are continuous and in an endless circle, just "like a river which flows on and on without end" or "like reeling the silk thread off cocoons".

*10. Tranquility In Movement*

In the case of the "Outer School" of boxing, the emphasis is on leaping, bouncing, punching and the exertion of force, and so one often gasps for breath after practising. But in taijiquan, the movement is blended with tranquility, and while performing the movements, one maintains tranquility of mind. In practising the "frame", the slower the movement the better the results. this is because when the movements are slow, one can take deep breath and sink it to the dan tian. It has a soothing effect on the body and the mind.

Learners of taijiquan will get a better understanding of all this through careful study and persistant practice.


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## oaktree

In yang style are you 100%empty on your leg? In Chen, at least as I was taught or/and remember we are never 100%full or empty there is a little bit reserve, I think if I recall it had to do with the kua structure I would have to keep it in mind when I practice the form to examine more.

As for limp in Baguazhang we don't have it definitely peng energy all the way to the fingers and tiger mouth and the rotation I think of it like a smashing energy.
In daito ryu aikijutsu there is softness but sensei still had some peng firmness.


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## Xue Sheng

oaktree said:


> In yang style are you 100%empty on your leg? In Chen, at least as I was taught or/and remember we are never 100%full or empty there is a little bit reserve, I think if I recall it had to do with the kua structure I would have to keep it in mind when I practice the form to examine more.
> 
> As for limp in Baguazhang we don't have it definitely peng energy all the way to the fingers and tiger mouth and the rotation I think of it like a smashing energy.
> In daito ryu aikijutsu there is softness but sensei still had some peng firmness.



You occasionally have one leg100% empty in both Yang and Chen...kinda sorta


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## oaktree

Ah yes you are correct golden roaster  Also has it but I think your single whip is 100%full on lead leg? I have done only a little bit of yang to me, feels that style has more empty fullness then Chen stylist.


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## Xue Sheng

The last one is Chen Zhenglei doing (金刚捣碓), Jin gang dao zhui aka Buddha's Warrior Attendant Pounds Mortar


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## oaktree

I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.
How does one use fa jin with a limp body?
I feel all this limp and firm has innuendo here


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## mograph

oaktree said:


> I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.


Loose until moment of contact. Right, XS?


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## Tez3

oaktree said:


> I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.
> How does one use fa jin with a limp body?
> *I feel all this limp and firm has innuendo here*



You _knew_ I'd be reading this!  The temptation to post something innuendo'ish was killing me.


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## oaktree

Tez3 said:


> You _knew_ I'd be reading this!  The temptation to post something innuendo'ish was killing me.


I have another one something about firm and limp and biscuits and the English
I have heard an urban legend that is how the fig Newton was made


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## Xue Sheng

oaktree said:


> I don't think there is even a limp movement in Xingyiquan, loose maybe but not limp.



Yes



oaktree said:


> How does one use fa jin with a limp body?



they don't..... but they can do my new style Savasanaquan









oaktree said:


> I feel all this limp and firm has innuendo here



Well umm.... you know....nope...I'm not gonna go there 



mograph said:


> Loose until moment of contact. Right, XS?



Exactly, loose, but not limp, and then KERBLAMMO!!!!!

Xingyiquan tends to tighten at the strike, but there are those in Taiji that say you stay loose at the strike, and I have tried it and it does work, you just have to be careful because, or well trained, I think injuring yourself would be pretty easy that way. I have heard the same in xingyiquan, but I have not seen it or tried it.


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## Zeny

_1) if the whole body is limp, with no force, how does one "push" someone even with an ounce of force?.....Can you define "Push”?_

I define “push” as unbalance, to a point that there is no movement you can do to regain your balance. Thus your only option is to fall.

_2) It takes muscle contraction to raise your arms and keep them extended...thus not limp...._

Perhaps I have not been accurate in my definition, and I apologise for that. When I think of “no force”, I mean the external shape is still there when you do a posture, such as grasping sparrow’s tail, and thus it is not like a rag doll. However, internally it is limp, like a loose guitar string. When pushing, only a light touch (1-2 ounces) is used.

_3) When one attempts to define a term, it's good practice to use different words to avoid a tautology._

Sorry, English is not my first language. But thanks for the good tip.

_4) May I ask why do you use the word "push"? How about "punch" or "kick"? Could you describe how you will "punch" someone's face by using "lightness and no force”?_

You can unbalance (see (1) above) as well as bouncing someone 2-3 steps with no force, but you cannot punch with no force. Pushing is a totally different story. The boxers would laugh if I were to claim that you can punch with no force.

_5) If someone hire you to use a slate hammer to knock down a 2 store concrete building, will you be able to complete that task by using "no force”?_

You cannot knock down a building or any other balanced immobile object like a statute with “no force”. However, you can do so in the case of a human being, because a human being is alive.

6) The question is, suppose you have acquired the skill to cause someone to fall to the ground with only a light touch (1-2 ounces), would you go back to your usual manner of pushing? Would anyone like to say that this cannot be done and is an impossible skill?


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## Kung Fu Wang

Zeny said:


> 6) The question is, suppose you have acquired the skill to cause someone to fall to the ground with only a light touch (1-2 ounces), would you go back to your usual manner of pushing? Would anyone like to say that this cannot be done and is an impossible skill?


I have not seen what you have just described (1-2 oz light touch) used on any wrestling mat or Judo mat yet. Are you sure that you and I live on the same planet? 

IMO, if you don't use your "leg skill" to disable your opponent's leg/legs mobility at the same time, you will give your opponent too much freedom and mobility. Your "push" won't be effective.

Why don't you control your opponent's leg when you "push" him?


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## Dirty Dog

Zeny said:


> 6) The question is, suppose you have acquired the skill to cause someone to fall to the ground with only a light touch (1-2 ounces), would you go back to your usual manner of pushing? Would anyone like to say that this cannot be done and is an impossible skill?



Well, yes, I would like to say exactly that. Assuming the person you are pushing isn't already teetering on the ragged edge of falling, I do not believe you can cause someone to fall to the ground with 1-2 oz of pressure.


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## Zeny

Just because one has never seen it done, or does not know how to do it, does not mean it cannot be done.

Let's get two points out of the way first.

Firstly, kung fu is acquired from correct practice over a period of time. The time element is of utmost importance. If i show you a move, and explain the move to you, and immediately you can do the same move, then that move is only a trick and not kung fu. By this very definition it logically follows that if i have kung fu in something but you do not, i can do something that you cannot, although we both have two arms and two legs.

Secondly, the human body is incredibly complex. It cannot be likened to a few cylinders which are balanced within and without joined together. It has yi, awareness, mindfulness, places that are relatively tense, places that are relatively relaxed, positions that are relatively balanced and unbalanced etc. Some are more stable with left leg in front, and some with right leg. Even chi within the body does not travel in a straight or the most direct path. That is why i say a human being can be unbalanced and caused to fall with a light touch, while a statue cannot. I simply need to understand and see the weaknesses in your body, and practise and acquire specific kung fu that allow me to exploit and take advantage of those weaknesses. Thus the slow can defeat the fast, and the old can defeat the young.

Would anyone like to disagree with me on the above points?


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> If i show you a move, and explain the move to you, and immediately you can do the same move, then that move is only a trick and not kung fu.



Well, that's bollocks for a start. You can teach a technique and if I can do it's a trick? No, sorry that is patent nonsense. You learn and are taught Kung Fu the same way we all learn things, you don't 'acquire' it, it doesn't magically seep in through your body through osmosis. If someone can teach you a technique you can learn it subject to the instruction being competent.


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## Zeny

Anyone else agree with Tez3 and wish to say that i am wrong?


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> Anyone else agree with Tez3 and wish to say that i am wrong?


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## oaktree

I think the key here is off balance,then yes if something is off balance then you can effortlessly push something to make it fall.In order to get someone off balance you have to have timing,technique, and yes some strength(enough to push your object off balance) I can agree because in daito ryu aikijujutsu my teacher is able to move in a way that off balances me by right timing and body movement and throw me with just a turn. How ever he is not limp,he is peng and uses only the necessary energy needed to push.
When you say the external form still retains its structure and is loose that is called peng there has to be some muscle contraction to be able to hold your arm up. When there is some contraction then qi can flow when to limp there is collapsed in the channel and blockage. If you relax your wrist to much it bends cutting off the flow to the hands if there is peng then it can flow. To limp to tight are extremes and best avoided.


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## Dirty Dog

Zeny said:


> Just because one has never seen it done, or does not know how to do it, does not mean it cannot be done.



As Tez said... bollocks. If you're ever in Colorado, I would invite you to show me how you can knock me down with 1-2 oz of pressure. It's not going to happen.

I think you'd enjoy training with this guy...


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## Tez3

I've seen a supposed 'no touch' KO and it really wasn't. It was the indoctrination/brainwashing of students who believed that when their instructor 'shouted' they would fall down unconscious so of course they did, more or less. It had to be the instructor's students of course, we were told it was too dangerous for anyone else to be the uke. When the student 'fell' down there was much fussing around with weird moves to bring him back again, personally a sound slap around the face to bring him to his common sense would have been better.
I went to another seminar where again they were advertised as going to do the 'no touch' KO but this time Iain Abernethy ( some might not agree with his Bunkai teaching but all do agree he's a very down to earth, practical Karateka and Judoka who doesn't do airy fairy) turned up to teach ( he wasn't advertised but came at the last minute I believe) and they didn't perform it, I doubt it was a coincidence. On a side note though both seminars featured a Sikh group demonstrating quite fearsome weapons and skill, that was brilliant, the no touch KO was a damp squib.


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## Xue Sheng

The way Zeny is describing this makes it sound like "Qi magic" or the "Ki master" in the above clip. And I think he is using multiple definitions of the term "kung fu" which is not helping. Kung Fu, by the way means "Hard Work" however it is also accepted as "Chinese martial arts" these days as well.

His use of 'limp' and 'loose guitar string' are just wrong.

As for the Taijiquan saying “use four ounces to deflect one thousand pounds” that is said and it is true, kinda… It is simply physics, everything and everybody has a tipping point and in a person, depending on where you hold your center it can be rather easy to knock someone over if you can find their center. Example, many good Internal Martial arts people tend to think of their center as their Dantian (a point about 3 fingers below your navel) this gives you a low center of gravity and makes you harder to push over or uproot. Now many body builders tend to have their center much higher and there for are a bit easier to push over. And if they respond with strength they, or anyone, is easier to uproot and knock down if you understand the whole “use four ounces to deflect one thousand pounds” things. However do not take that too literally. But all of this takes a connection and if someone is pummeling you with kicks and punches it is not as easy as Zeny seems to want to lead you to believe.

Now it is not magical, it is not mystical powers of Qi it is physics. Do it right and it looks effortless, but it takes a lot of training, patients and frustration to get there.

As for this bit about whole



> If i show you a move, and explain the move to you, and immediately you can do the same move, then that move is only a trick and not kung fu.



Well, that is mostly wrong.

There are a plethora of moves and postures and applications in Wushu (the proper term for Chinese marital arts) that you can show someone that can be done immediately, but then that depends on how well the student pays attention, how talented they are at what they are trying to learn, and what experience they bring with them. However talking strictly in the realm of Qi (energy) projection, well then that is a trick. And if you are limp as a wet noodle and go up to someone, touch them and they fall over, then that too is a trick and you can at best claim you have taught your student to fall down on cue.

However, when talking Taijiquan, it can take a very long time to get to a point where you are relaxed enough, patient enough, and enough faith in your ability, to get to the “use four ounces to deflect one thousand pounds” but that does not mean that there is not a student out there that will not get it immediately, if shown properly. But it is very rare to find anyone who picks it up after being shown once


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## Zeny

Oaktree is on the right track, but his guess (off balance, timing, technique) is incomplete, probably only 1/3 of the necessary requirements to execute a 2 oz push.

If you are not relying on any force at all to unbalance your opponent, suddenly you are severely handicapped and have no choice but to rely on other means to do it. Over time, you become acutely aware of your opponent's structure, his deficiencies, tendencies, and many other things.

Let me describe what i feel from the first moments when i lightly touch my opponent's arm. From my eyes and sense of touch, i am able to tell:

1) whether he is standing completely upright or is there a slight lean
2) whether he has a root and how strong is the root
3) whether he is fully relaxed, or just partially relaxed, and what exactly are the tense parts
4) how sensitive is his listening jin
5) what is the distribution of weight between his two legs
6) whether he has a tendency to move his body in such a way as to break his own stability
7) etc

If he is standing upright, is stable and has a strong root, i do not push him. Instead, i lead him like a puppet. For eg, if i want him to raise his arm, i extend my hand towards his throat. As he raises his arm to defend the throat, he may also move his waist and/or bend his body slightly and/or make other small movements. He may or may not be conscious of those movements. With every movement that i lead him, i slowly take away his stability, and finally his balance. Without balance, he will fall without even a push.

The above is still not all. There is more. Anyway, tonight in my class i was doing some push hands with a fellow student. After some maneuvering my left palm was on his chest, only lightly touching and not resting on him or applying any force, and my right palm was on his left arm. He stood there motionless, still upright, and closed his eyes, like a statue. I said, 'please move'. He said, 'i can't, i have the feeling that no matter how i move i will fall'. I said, 'if you don't move i can't push'. In that circumstances, if he refused to move, i would be unwilling to push him because it requires me to apply more force than i want to. It is much easier to unbalance a moving person.

Edit: changing the word 'adhere' to 'touch'.


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## oaktree

I have heard that using 4ounces to deflect 1,000 pounds was metamorphic and not to be taken literally.


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## oaktree

" i slowly take away his stability, and finally his balance. Without balance, he will fall without even a push."
How is this not off balancing someone? 
In daito ryu, Taijiquan, Baguazhang we do the same thing you describe however, we still have firmness. I think the wording of softness is what you are saying.


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## Tez3

Okay, now there have been those who criticise when I say I can't understand something because they haven't used English that is understandable, BUT when explaining something it is important to use words in the way that people understand them to mean.



Zeny said:


> i lightly adhere to my opponent's arm.



'Adhere' means to stick fast which is confusing because you cannot do it lightly, do you mean touch?



Zeny said:


> Instead, i lead him like a puppet.



You don't 'lead' a puppet you control it.



Zeny said:


> For eg, if i want him to raise his arm, i extend my hand towards his throat. As he raises his arm to defend the throat, he may also move his waist and/or bend his body slightly and/or make other small movements. He may or may not be conscious of those movements. With every movement that i lead him, i slowly take away his stability, and finally his balance. Without balance, he will fall without even a push.



He may do the movements you want him to but there's a very good chance he won't, he may not defend the throat he may attack you instead. If you are 'slowly' taking away his stability and you think you have all the time in the world to play with someone then you are very sadly mistaken. If you think that by merely ( and slowly) taking away his balance you can then just push him over I  seriously think you are deluded.
Judoka work on taking people off balance, it's a tried and tested tactic which works but it's not done slowly and you can't just push them over with a finger. In other martial arts the idea of making your opponent go off balance is known and used but we don't believe in magic, just hard work and practice, practice, practice.


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## Zeny

On slowness, it is not necessary to respond to every movement or attack with speed. During non-competitive 'classroom' push hands, it is not necessary to cause a person to fall immediately upon contact.

Tonight we have a new student, about my age and size, some martial background (he declined to disclose more), pretty strong arms, close to no root, lots of useless flowery movements, and who was keen to try out some push hands.

After falling several times, he was amazed that he could be taken down without any force. To prevent further falls he started using more and more force while i maintained lightness and max 2 oz. i didn't manage to push him after that, but he remarked how tired he was and how much energy he had to expend to defend against my 2 oz pushes. If i had used slightly more force, maybe 10 oz, there would be no difficulty in pushing him but then i wouldn't be able to improve my skills.


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## oaktree

Hi Tez, 
I'll try to explain this from an internal arts perspective.
"Adhere' means to stick fast which is confusing because you cannot do it lightly, do you mean touch?"
When an internal stylist touches arms to another person we tend to touch softly as in very little muscle relaxed, we are trying to be sensitive to the movement of the opponent body structure, and direction of the force or energy, so if he is pushing to the right we are sticking and following and then redirecting is a possible method of dealing with force.
However, there does have to be a degree of force (4ounces is the metaphor) in order to move the 1,000 pounds. No force means no 4 ounces results in the force to keep moving at the momentum. It is the application to stick, follow and apply the correct amount of force at the right time to off balance a person which is why people who are lethargic can not redirect force because they can't even lift their arm up.
"You don't 'lead' a puppet you control it."
I was at the puppet museum and those puppets were on me pretty good. Elmo is actually pretty short.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Zeny said:


> Just because one has never seen it done, or does not know how to do it, does not mean it cannot be done. ... Would anyone like to disagree with me on the above points?


If your teacher tells you that if you do ....., after so many years, you should be able to jump 20 feet high, will you want to see that teacher be able to do it himself? There are something that you just can't do it no matter how much time that you have spent in your training.


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## Tez3

oaktree said:


> Hi Tez,
> I'll try to explain this from an internal arts perspective.
> "Adhere' means to stick fast which is confusing because you cannot do it lightly, do you mean touch?"
> When an internal stylist touches arms to another person we tend to touch softly as in very little muscle relaxed, we are trying to be sensitive to the movement of the opponent body structure, and direction of the force or energy, so if he is pushing to the right we are sticking and following and then redirecting is a possible method of dealing with force.
> However, there does have to be a degree of force (4ounces is the metaphor) in order to move the 1,000 pounds. No force means no 4 ounces results in the force to keep moving at the momentum. It is the application to stick, follow and apply the correct amount of force at the right time to off balance a person which is why people who are lethargic can not redirect force because they can't even lift their arm up.
> "You don't 'lead' a puppet you control it."
> I was at the puppet museum and those puppets were on me pretty good. Elmo is actually pretty short.



Thank you for the explanation, I just actually wanted to know whether he meant touch or stick though. 




Zeny said:


> After falling several times, he was amazed that he could be taken down without any force. To prevent further falls he started using more and more force while i maintained lightness and max 2 oz. i didn't manage to push him after that, but he remarked how tired he was and how much energy he had to expend to defend against my 2 oz pushes. If i had used slightly more force, maybe 10 oz, there would be no difficulty in pushing him but then i wouldn't be able to improve my skills.



so what you are telling us is that you magically pushed him over with your fingertips.


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## Zeny

To push a person without using force, is counter-intuitive and i certainly don't expect anyone to believe it. That is why this thread is called a debate.

If you don't use force, then you must use timing, guile and awareness of many other factors, as well as a deep understanding of the opponent's body and his intensions and tendencies. There is a logical method and it is certainly no magic.

Taichi asks you to use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds and that slow can defeat the fast. This is also counter intuitive, and if you don't think outside the box, how will you be able to do this. For slow to defeat the fast, you certainly must acquire a high level of skill in something else rather than speed or force generation. What then is that something else?


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## Zeny

Kung fu wang, not everything can be seen in youtube.


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## oaktree

"To push a person without using force, is counter-intuitive and i certainly don't expect anyone to believe it. That is why this thread is called a debate." Well considering that No force defys newtons laws of motion
How does an object move if no force(energy)is being used? You can't say you use no force and then say you use a small amount of force. Go push a ball but don't touch it see how far it moves.



Zeny said:


> If you don't use force, then you must use timing, guile and awareness of many other factors, as well as a deep understanding of the opponent's body and his intensions and tendencies. There is a logical method and it is certainly no magic.


I said you need timing and timing means the correct time to off balance an opponent or listen however there has to be some force and this in the metaphor is 4oz which at the right time can move 1,000lbs because it off balances it on the right angle. 


Zeny said:


> Taichi asks you to use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds and that slow can defeat the fast. This is also counter intuitive, and if you don't think outside the box, how will you be able to do this. For slow to defeat the fast, you certainly must acquire a high level of skill in something else rather than speed or force generation


Slow can not beat fast that is why bullets go through people. Correct timing can beat fast.
You should try this experiment, have a world class track runner race an old lady tell me who won


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## oaktree




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## Dirty Dog

Zeny said:


> To push a person without using force, is counter-intuitive and i certainly don't expect anyone to believe it. That is why this thread is called a debate.



What you are describing is impossible, under the laws of physics that control this universe. 
Perhaps you're thinking of some alternative reality?



Zeny said:


> If you don't use force, then you must use timing, guile and awareness of many other factors, as well as a deep understanding of the opponent's body and his intensions and tendencies. There is a logical method and it is certainly no magic.



If you don't use force, then it would have to be magic. Again, any time you like, I am sure that any of us would be happy to allow you to apply your 2oz of pressure and knock us down. No challenge  no fight, no sparring, just a request for a demonstration.



Zeny said:


> Taichi asks you to use 4 ounces to deflect a thousand pounds and that slow can defeat the fast. This is also counter intuitive, and if you don't think outside the box, how will you be able to do this. For slow to defeat the fast, you certainly must acquire a high level of skill in something else rather than speed or force generation. What then is that something else?



You do know that stories like _*The Tortise and the Hare*_ are make believe, right?
As philosophy and metaphor, what you're saying is peachy. As a strategy for a physical conflict? I don't recommend it.


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## Zeny

Aside from the things i have described, there are other elements that most people do not realise. A person's root or stability is not constant. Most people would say 'you have a strong root' and leave it at that. But the matter is far from that simple. If a person stands upright and places 100pc weight on one leg, and rotates his waist, or shifts his weight around as in the posture grasping sparrow's tail, it is far more probable than not that he may lose his uprightness or lessen his root somewhere in the process. There may be points where he has a better root and points where he doesn't.

By merely placing a soft palm on your partner's chest, without using force or resting on him (only lightly sticking), you can actually sense quite accurately the moment he has his root and the moment he loses it. All these extra information are vital if you wish to resort to other means, rather than force, to unbalance a person.

Once you are acutely aware of this, then it is simply a matter of leading him towards positions where he has a weak root. At that moment only 2 oz is sufficient to unbalance him.


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## Xue Sheng

Zeny

 I am going to give you the benefit of doubt and say I do not think you know what the meaning of 'Force' is.
Force is a vector quantity that has bot magnitude and direction and without either one of those you have no movement there for you cannot, by the laws of physics move something, without force

F=ma
Force = (the mass of and object)(acceleration) 

Please look here


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## Zeny

Xue Sheng, thanks. Appreciate the clarification.

Let's say i place my palms on sand, and if i push the sand lightly, it creates a shallow mark, and if i push harder, it creates a deeper mark.

The amount of energy used in the push is what i mean when i use the word 'force'. Is there a better word? If there is, let's use that word from here onwards.

If the person i push is made of sand, i would not want to create any deep mark on the person.


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## oaktree

But you have to use a degree of energy or force to move,lead, off balance an object.
You can not use no force, you can use minimal force,a degree of force but saying no force even denys fa jing


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## Zeny

I did say no force, but what i mean is very minimal force, at most 1-2 oz, which is akin to no force.

If you don't allow your partner to place any force on your body, he will not be able to reach a 'handle' to stabilize himself, and thus he must rely completely on his own balance and stability in order to maintain standing. If his balance is not good (imagine standing on one leg) you can topple him easily.


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> I did say no force, but what i mean is very minimal force, at most 1-2 oz, which is akin to no force.
> 
> If you don't allow your partner to place any force on your body, he will not be able to reach a 'handle' to stabilize himself, and thus he must rely completely on his own balance and stability in order to maintain standing. If his balance is not good (imagine standing on one leg) you can topple him easily.



Now, though you are talking about things that every martial artist knows, it's isn't 'special' but quite normal. When sparring, martial artists of all hues will try to make their opponent 'off balance' enough to be able to strike successfully at them, they won't go down merely by being off balance but it makes taking/throwing/striking at lot *easier*.


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## Zeny

Tez3, you are right. Now we are on the same page. I'm only going slightly further, unbalance an opponent without relying on force (only a very light mark on the sand man).

I also never said it is special, i'm only asking for the views of those who agree and those who disagree in order to create some entertainment.


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> Tez3, you are right. Now we are on the same page. I'm only going slightly further, unbalance an opponent without relying on force (only a very light mark on the sand man).
> 
> I also never said it is special, i'm only asking for the views of those who agree and those who disagree in order to create some entertainment.



You are actually going a step too far with the 'no force' argument because it can't be done, it's a simple as that.

I will also add we aren't here for your entertainment, we come to learn and discuss.


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## Zeny

That kind of response pretty much puts a stop to any debate.


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> That kind of response pretty much puts a stop to any debate.



You aren't debating though, you put up a post then say 'right who disagrees with me?' now you've said it's for entertainment.
You tell us things that people who know say are actually impossible, you also keep changing the goal posts, so no I wouldn't say my comments have stopped the 'debate' if in such it ever was.


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## mograph

Zeny, please do not use the words "no force" when you mean "a small amount of force."
The two phrases are not equal.

They are not "akin" either. That is like saying that if an opponent does not move (due to _no_ force being used), it is akin to his falling down (due to a _small amount_ of force being used). Since the two outcomes are completely different, they are not akin to each other.

Now, if something is _not_ being used (when a small amount of force _is_ being used), please define what that thing is: the thing that is _not_ being used. Please do not use the word "force" to define the thing that is not being used. 

If you want to teach, you must be able to use different words to get your idea across, as the need arises.


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## oaktree

Well I don't know if it was for entertainment purposes, however when people search on Google or inquiry about internal arts, as practitioner of said arts we need to present something plausible, something that has merit, educational and in line with the people who created the art based on their theory.
Now, having a different approach or concept does present a debate and open possibilities such as the video of knife defense and ground work in Taijiquan that agree and disagree which is done intelligently, and I am always up for an intelligent conversation. I think this threads problem is the inconsistency of the definition of terms being used. Now if I recall the original posters native language wasn't English so maybe a misunderstanding of terminology or maybe a radically different approach, but in almost 2 decades in martial arts and 10 in internal arts have not seen anyone use zero force and have someone unbalance.
I have seen some one commit to an attack with a lunge to grab and right when the person went to grab the teacher moved away causing the student to fall due the off balance of the student it had to do with the concept of his intent is going to grab and because his intent is so locked on that position he off balance if the teacher moved, aikijujutsu and aikido and sword arts do this and it is difficult to put into words but nothing mystical about it and can be explained with psychology and physics


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## mograph

oaktree said:


> I think this threads problem is the inconsistency of the definition of terms being used.


Indeed.


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## oaktree

This reminds me of a story with my teacher.
So we are discussing in how to feel the correct timing of the opponent attack.
So we sit in seiza legs bend back and he says ok feel when I am going to attack, so I'm thinking ok, he raises up to strike to early try again, raises up to attack wham to late,
Relax, finally I get it right, I am thinking I am a qigong master right psychic powers but my teacher tells me the secret and it was actually something we notice unconscious and I saw the cue unconsciously and because my unconscious wasn't aware of it my consciousness side tried to use super natural as a means to rationalize it.

However I am near sighted so may be I really didn't see the cue and I am a qigong master


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## Tez3

oaktree said:


> Now if I recall the original posters native language wasn't English so maybe a misunderstanding of terminology or maybe a radically different approach, but in almost 2 decades in martial arts and 10 in internal arts have not seen anyone use zero force and have someone unbalance.



I've found though in martial arts that using the language of origin of the art when 'naming' techniques or ideas is best. In karate we can say 'mawashigeri' and we all know what it means, likewise with 'kime', bunkai etc. I assume there is a name for this 'no touch' idea ?


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## Zeny

I'm a malaysian chinese and when i learn taijiquan we learn in chinese and the explanations are done in chinese. English is not my native tongue. Sometimes it is difficult for me to restate the chinese terms and meanings in precise English.

To ask me to define precisely what i mean is sometimes close to impossible. When i say no force or 1-2 oz of force, actually both are correct. Sometimes if a proper opportunity could be grasped or the opponent's structure is grossly defective, the unbalancing act could be executed with completely zero force. If the opponent has a better structure, sometimes 1-2 ounces need be used. If the opponent has 10 years or more in correct taijiquan practice, heavier techniques like light fajin need be used. It all depends on the situation. How do you expect me to state things completely in black and white? Real life is anything but black and white.

Initially i thought push hands has 10 shades of grey but eventually discovered more than 100 and still new elements are discovered every now and then. When i do push hands i pay attention to many different elements and variables. I even pay attention to how my opponent breath. How many do you pay attention to? Most people simply pay attention to three elements, the opponent's two arms and their centre of gravity. To put it bluntly that is close to newbie standard. Even a child could do it.

When i first started push hands, pushing the centre of gravity was all i know. One day at a seminar i was shown for the first time something called 'chieh jin' (cutting jin). To execute this jin is like cutting a piece of paper at the edges only but never the centre. In push hands terms it means taking down a person by placing force on any part but the centre of gravity. When i saw that demonstrated my jaw dropped. Today this jin is as familiar to me as the air i breath.

My intention is not to teach. If i know something i will tell you that i know it. If i don't know something i don't pretend that i know. On the lightness issue i'm pretty confident of my skill and knowledge of the mechanics so i asked for a debate to listen and enjoy the opposing views. So far fortunately most responses have been pleasant.

Before i commenced this thread i thought most would be curious how it could be done and ask for explanations. However i was very surprised that most responses are 'it cannot be done' without even first asking for an explanation. It is as if they have seen and know everything in taichi and something that is not within their knowledge or understanding cannot be done. It is really difficult to talk to people like that.


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## oaktree

You can type the hanzi for no force and light force. 


Zeny said:


> Sometimes it is difficult for me to restate the chinese terms and meanings in precise English.


You are welcome to type the words you are trying to express in Hanzi. Wo de laopo shi zhongguo ren
and no those two girls in my picture are not my wife and her friend that is ah sa and ah gil
Xue sheng also can look at the hanzi and kungfu Wang I believe also knows Hanzi. 


Zeny said:


> When i say no force or 1-2 oz of force, actually both are correct


I think the hanzi you use will be able to clear this up but for english lesson: you can't say you have no money and say you have money. 


Zeny said:


> g act could be executed with completely zero force. If the opponent has a better structure, sometimes 1-2 ounces need be used.


Can you show any video of anyone doing anything you are talking about anyone like Chen Xiaowang or anyone famous who spent their whole life in the art?



Zeny said:


> Before i commenced this thread i thought most would be curious how it could be done and ask for explanations. However i was very surprised that most responses are 'it cannot be done' without even first asking for an explanation.


Because your defination of no force is like saying you can knock someone down with not physically touching them then you change it to say well I do touch them and use some force.

Its like this: You are saying you can levitate which defys the law of gravity then say well I jump high in the air and jumping in the air for 5 seconds is same as levitating because both are in the air.



Zeny said:


> It is as if they have seen and know everything in taichi and something that is not within their knowledge or understanding cannot be done. It is really difficult to talk to people like that.


Has nothing at all do to with Taijiquan it has to do with making a claim that defys the laws of motion and your use of a word that may not be in the right context. 
So let us see the hanzi you use for no force or what not and then we can understand your meaning because right now it looks like you are saying you can throw your Qi at someone from 50 feet and make him fall down.


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## Tez3

I think that there are a lot of misunderstandings going on here, I understand that English is not the OP's first language but what he is stating which is that one can make a person fall over without touching' _is_ impossible. Now perhaps he's that's not what he is saying in his head but when it's written down that _is_ what it says. It then changed to 1- 2oz of pressure/touch would push someone over, again very, very unlikely.

The problem is that something like this actually demands a very precise explanation, if others are to understand it. It needs explaining in 'scientific' terms or it will not be understood. it's difficult I know but it's not that people are assuming they know everything it's that what you have *said* is actually impossible. If it's not what you mean then I'm afraid and I know it's frustrating for you, you will have to get a concise and accurate translation of what you do mean.


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## Zeny

Oaktree, tui ren mei you yong li.


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## oaktree

No muscular strength you mean by force?


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## Zeny

Yes, no need to expend any strength. Just light touching and leading.


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## Zeny

Ok tez3 since more pleasant words are used let me try to explain to the best of my ability. Long post coming up.


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## Xue Sheng

Zeny said:


> Oaktree, tui ren mei you yong li.



Hanzi would be the actual characters. Pinyin, without the tones can be hard to translate, example; type 'ma', what does 'ma' mean? Well which one are you asking about; mā (Mother, 媽),  má (Hemp, 麻), mǎ (Horse, 馬), mà (Scold, 罵)

English: Chinese
Pinyin: Zhōngwén (Mandarin Chinese)
Hanzi: 中文

*Hanzi* and kanji are the Chinese and Japanese pronunciations of the term 漢字 that is used in both languages. It refers to the Chinese characters that both languages make use of in their writing systems. Chinese is written entirely in *hanzi*, and Japanese makes heavy use of Chinese characters.

Edit: Also, for the record, my reading of Chinese characters is not so good, but my wife's is very good, for both simplified (简) and traditional (傳統) [simplified Chinese for the word traditional is 传统 ]


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## oaktree

Zeny said:


> Yes, no need to expend any strength. Just light touching and leading.


I think I can agree with this, I think a better way to say is "no need to expend any unnecessary strength"


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## Zeny

What i'm about to write here will be very difficult to understand. Even i were explaining it to you in person and demonstrating it to you, it is highly likely that you will still not get it. Anyway here goes.

1) most people have a highly simplified view of the human body. A human body is not just one head, two arms and two legs. You really need to look deeper at it.

2) the starting point is standing. Can you stand completely upright or is there a slight lean? When you move, can you maintain the same uprightness or do you start to lean forward?

3) next is sinking directly down, when you sink, do you start to wobble? Can you maintain the same stability when you sink and rise?

4) next is parting legs. When you part the legs, are you able to place 100 pc weight on one leg? When you do this do you wobble? When you sink and rise on one leg do you wobble? When you shift your leg 100 pc to the other leg, do you wobble at any point in the process?

5) next is your upper body, are you relaxed completely? When you hold up your arm does it have any slight tension? When force is applied on you are you able to not resist, and still maintain the touch and not let go? do you have any point in your body where you may unconsciously resist or become tense in certain positions?

6) the above is somewhat simplified but will have to suffice for now. once you have eliminated all the weaknesses in your structure and body as above, the same weaknesses in the opponent's body will become glaring to you.

7) reason is simple, let's imagine you make a lot of effort to stop smoking, and after a few months, you finally succeed. If i now place you in the same room with another smoker, his act of smoking becomes especially noticeable (and probably most annoying) to you.

8) let's imagine now that you are comfortable, relaxed and stable in all of the above movements. This is where the fun starts. When pushing hands, lightly touch the opponent, observe him, ask yourself the following questions, is he standing upright? is he breathing comfortably? Is he balanced and stable? Is there any part that seems or feels hard, tense or immobile?

9) next move your touching arm, observe his movements, does he stick to your arm? how does he react? when he is moving, is he still balanced? does his body move together with the arm? when the body moves is the body still upright?

10) all the above may seem like a lot of work, but once you are used to it it becomes almost instantaneous and second nature. at this juncture simply lead him to make movements which affect his balance or stability. For eg moving foward or backward, rising up or sinking down, turning the waist etc plus any combination of the above. The leading skill does not come naturally and will have to be learnt.

11) a simple example is, if you are erect like this "|" and your opponent is led to lose his stability as well as become like this ">", simply take a step towards him and he will fall.

Bonus edit) most people would wobble when they sink or rise when they have 100 pc weight on one leg. To unbalance him, simply lead him to stand 100 pc on his hind leg (such as executing a roll back), then lead him to rise or sink. At the moment when he moves up or down, apply a light touch at a proper spot. He will lose his balance.


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## Tez3

I was fine with everything, understood it, agreed with some even until no 11. Then no 11... simply no, he will not fall over when you walk up to him. There needs to be an action by you to make him fall, a kick, punch, push, hit with a stick, _something._ He will not fall over all on his own. Are you sure this is what you mean?


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## oaktree

Zeny, you describe rudimentary practice of post standing and basic push hands that I teach to beginners. Here's the kids and I playing with rooting and force. My daughter is doing her Baguazhang.


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## mograph

Zeny said:


> Yes, no need to expend any strength. Just light touching and leading.





oaktree said:


> I think I can agree with this, I think a better way to say is "no need to expend any unnecessary strength"


Yes, this is getting closer. Assuming the OP is interacting with an opponent, then the OP's light-touching-with-leading implies that the _opponent_ supplies the motive force: the force of the falling comes from the _opponent_. However, the light touch leads the opponent in a direction slightly _away_ from the OP: this is often called leading the opponent into emptiness. 

With the right timing and orientation, the OP need not use the same amount of strength/force that an average person might think would be necessary to fell an opponent. Instead, the OP uses a small amount of force to direct the opponent when the opponent is already moving. This feels aikido-ish, no?

Metaphor: the opponent is the engine, the OP's light touch is the rudder?


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## Xue Sheng

Something to consider.... When doing push hands against those that are rather experienced (I'm thinking someone like my Yang sifu who has been doing taiji for around 60 years) if you maintain, shall we say, as softer approach. He will, at some point, appear to be "hard, tense and immobile" if you fall for that and attempt to apply anything you are discussing, you will quickly find yourself on the floor. It is a fake, that people use against those they are training with, when they feel they are getting no where. I have used it on occasion with varying degrees of success. Also having a very short moment of being tense can, if applied correctly, up root and throw your opponent off balance


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## Zeny

Ah tez3 to explain that will require another set of explanations..... Tomorrow perhaps.


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## Zeny

Oaktree, thanks for the nice pic. No offence, if i were that kid, my posture would be very different and there is no way you can maintain your stance or resist me. You cannot take for granted that your root will work against all manner of pushes.


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> Ah tez3 to explain that will require another set of explanations..... Tomorrow perhaps.



Well no, not really. Either you are doing no touch stuff or you are actually touching your opponent/partner which is the more likely. The  the technique will need an explanation but you stated you just step toward them and they fall down, that implies not touching them.


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## Zeny

Yes maybe i over simplified as that post has gotten really long. Quick explanation is, if a person breaks his structure and (for eg) sways towards his back, you place your arms which are soft like a pillow at exactly the point that he has to come back to to regain his structure. He won't be able to do so as if he forces his way back, your soft pillow arms would be springy which will cause a bounce effect that bounces him towards the ground. If he maintains his position and refuses to move, you simply walk towards him and the overall effect (not just any spot) caused by your advance will cause him to lose his balance and fall.


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## mograph

Tez3 said:


> I was fine with everything, understood it, agreed with some even until no 11. Then no 11... simply no, he will not fall over when you walk up to him. There needs to be an action by you to make him fall, a kick, punch, push, hit with a stick, _something._ He will not fall over all on his own. Are you sure this is what you mean?


I think the OP means "when you can feel by touch that he is off-balance, take a step toward him *with your hands on him* *and maintaining peng*, and he will fall over."


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> I think the OP means "when you can feel by touch that he is off-balance, take a step toward him *with your hands on him* *and maintaining peng*, and he will fall over."



Taking a long time but I think we are getting there!  thank you, 'falling over' is better than 'falling down' which sounds like they just fainted away. If there's actual 'hands on' technique to making your opponent fall over then that's believable, now whether it's a workable or efficient technique I'll leave the CMA people to argue over.


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## Zeny

The point is, the skill i mentioned is only a means to an end. The skill itself is not the most important thing. What is important is the time and attention spent to acquire that skill. Along the way you will have gained so much understanding of the human body and its reactions and tendencies, that if one day you join a competition or something like that, you will be very scary if you go all out.

In other words, if i can unbalance you and cause you to fall over with very minimal effort, let's see what happens if i decide to go all out.

P/S i did try to go all out for shits and giggles and slammed a 13 year fellow taijiquan student to the wall within a split second. I didn't know what moves i did when i tried to reflect on what happened.


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## mograph

Tez3 said:


> If there's actual 'hands on' technique to making your opponent fall over then that's believable, now whether it's a workable or efficient technique I'll leave the CMA people to argue over.


Taijiquan is pretty sneaky: basically, we try to feel where the opponent is going (and how stiff he/she is) by touch, then sometimes feint by touch and try to make the opponent commit him/herself to an action based on our feint. Once they commit, we just help them on their way. We might give them a slight tug, and when they pull back by resisting, we push them away. Or ... we may make ourselves a target for a push from the opponent, then move out of the way and gently steer them a few degrees off as we watch them go by.

Of course, it's much more subtle than that, and good practitioners will never commit so much that they cannot retreat back to center. Also, we try to hide our intentions as much as we can to those who are good with touch. The better the practitioner, the more subtle the game. 

That's one reason why we train push hands: to develop the ability to sense intention by touch. It's not mind-reading: we all have physical "tells," and the good practitioner tries to minimize his/her own tells, camouflage them, or create fake tells.


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> Also having a very short moment of being tense can, if applied correctly, up root and throw your opponent off balance


Yes. Would you say that it's not enough to be soft all the time, but we need to control our ability to shift between soft and hard when it is necessary?
Of course, all the time, being sensitive?


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Yes. Would you say that it's not enough to be soft all the time, but we need to control our ability to shift between soft and hard when it is necessary?
> Of course, all the time, being sensitive?



You need to know, and be aware of, both sides of the coin.... Yin and Yang







Anyone who disagrees does not understand


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## oaktree

Zeny said:


> Oaktree, thanks for the nice pic. No offence, if i were that kid, my posture would be very different and there is no way you can maintain your stance or resist me. You cannot take for granted that your root will work against all manner of pushes.


It is actually the most basic natural posture that most people do to push, the point was to show force being applied and rooting. And if you tried to push me you are correct I would not maintain the stance or resist you I would change blend and be behind you.
Baguazhang root is all about rooting on the move so breaking my root only creates a flow into another root posture lIke a spinning top


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## Tez3

Do you ever pull? In Judo for example and to a certain extent in the style of karate I do when someone is pushing you, what you do is pull rather than push back. It puts them off balance and makes it easier to do whatever technique you deem necessary.


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## mograph

Zeny, if you disagree with my post about soft and hard, maybe we disagree on the definition of "soft" and "hard." This is not uncommon.

To me: 
"Soft" relates to the receiving of an action. 
"Hard" relates to the transmitting of an action. 

When we apply Fa Jing we are being "hard," if only for an instant. This hardness needs to be _distributed throughout the body _in order to be most effective. (I am not referring to localized muscular tension.) The hardness must not be more than is necessary in order to achieve the desired effect (e.g. to bounce the opponent). If the hardness is distributed, it will feel much less (and lighter) than if it were concentrated in one or two muscles. A small force, multiplied throughout the body, can achieve the same effect as a large force, concentrated on one part, such as the triceps. However, the concentrated force requires tension and tightness, which decreases sensitivity and may delay reaction time. However, the lighter, distributed force, is less distracting and allows for a maintaining of sensitivity and higher reaction time.

This distribution is another way to look at "unified whole-body force."

Are we soft when transmitting? I'd say that we are unified: in order to even lightly direct an opponent, we need to be unified enough to not _yield_. Our sensitivity tells us when we have used the right about of force.

That's what I have ... in my opinion.


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## oaktree

Tez actually spoke about the concept of Ju in Judo the pulling and pushing and I want to elaborate on it a little and the breaking of balance. Breaking someone else's balance can be good but in some cases pushing someone down as they fall back this can happen and I have used this many times. Most people in the internal arts don't know how to handle something like this:


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## mograph

oaktree said:


> Most people in the internal arts don't know how to handle something like this:


Does judo have a technique that prevents someone's getting such a good grip on one's clothing?


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## oaktree

mograph said:


> Does judo have a technique that prevents someone's getting such a good grip on one's clothing?


I'm not a judoka but I imagine in their self defense they do. But I think judoka don't mind having their clothes grabbed because they are use to it and it sets up for a counter throw.


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## Tony Dismukes

mograph said:


> Does judo have a technique that prevents someone's getting such a good grip on one's clothing?


Grip fighting is a huge part of judo. High level judoka are very good at getting superior grips while not allowing ther opponents to get an effective grip.


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## Zeny

Mograph, thanks for that. Your explanation is very clear.

However my fajin is different. I'm not saying that my method is better, it may well be that your fajin method is better, just that i do it in a different manner.

When i fajin my upper body is empty of any force and soft like a pillow. The 'jin' is generated in my legs, and as there is no hardness or tension throughout my body, i can channel the jin in my legs to my palm, and then into the opponent's body. The opponent then feels a springy bouncing effect, rather than a push.

My taijiquan also has ying and yang, but i cannot simply call them softness and hardness, it is more complicated than that. My yang is produced from my ying. What i mean is, my only goal is to soften my body to the extreme. There is not a single occasion where i would want to tense or harden my body, not even for an instant. Over time, when i feel my arms, my skin and the meat underneath it feels like a baby's, until i could feel and trace the surface of my bone. When i use my fingers to feel my bones, the bones feel surpisingly large, at least larger than i remember them to be.

if i extend my arm in a soft manner, without moving my body or generating jin, and say my partner tries to stop the movement of my arm with his fingers, he will feel that my energy is very strong and he will not be able to do it, while i would feel as if i'm moving through next to no resistance (effortless). While my arm has this yang, it also has ying, for it is still soft like a pillow and relaxed.

In other words, my ying and yang exist at the same time. My ying produces yang, and my yang contains ying.

Hope the above is clear and understandable.


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## Xue Sheng

Yin (not ying) becomes Yang and Yang becomes Yin and there is always a little Yin in Yang and a little Yang in Yin. That is what this symbol is telling you


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## Tez3

Zeny said:


> if i extend my arm in a soft manner, without moving my body or generating jin, and say my partner tries to stop the movement of my arm with his fingers, *he will feel that my energy is very strong and he will not be able to do it, while i would feel as if i'm moving through next to no resistance (effortless).* While my arm has this yang, it also has ying, for it is still soft like a pillow and relaxed.



I'm not disbelieving you as such, just curious to know if you have tested this against resisting opponents from different styles? As well as against people who are really out to make their attack hurt you?


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## oaktree

"When i fajin my upper body is empty of any force and soft like a pillow"

Hmm when I fajin I hit hard like a truck.


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## Zeny

Tested against fully resisting opponents from different styles, yes.

Tested against people who are out to hurt me, no.

As a matter of background i'm from this taijiquan school:

Sing Ong Tai Chi - learn taijiquan in New Zealand and around the world

There is a branch in Canada:

https://m.facebook.com/LavalTaiChi/

This is the info on the canadian instructor:

Sing Ong Tai Chi - Laval, Québec, Canada


----------



## Xue Sheng

Zeny

When you do this "Pillow soft" push hands to easily knock your opponent over, are you both in the middle of an open room, or is the opponent in from of a couch like a video you showed in another thread?


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## Zeny

When practising the unbalancing act, the opponent is standing with his back against a couch. This allows the unbalancing act to be properly trained, as it is probably impossible to even commence training if the opponent is free to take backward steps every time you try to unbalance him. Unbalancing an opponent and causing him to fall over and for his buttocks to hit the floor is more difficult in an open area, but not impossible. Personally for me i just resort to bouncing my partner after i unbalance him during training in an open area (when the two couches in the classroom are occupied by other students).

Fajin is trained in an open area, but there is a mattress placed vertically against the wall. This is so that the partner is not injured when his back slams against the wall. However, as most seasoned students are usually quite sung and soft, it is quite difficult to slam them as well, so most fajin probably just causes them to take 1-2 steps back.


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## Tez3

You could always train to breakfall, it's a useful technique to have, though you may not have the same problems with ice and snow covered roads and pavements!

I don't see though why it would be impossible to train against a partner who is moving, it's done in other martial arts and is seen as vital. Training again a non resisting, non moving, non attacking partner negates the point of training. Once, yes to learn then you have to use it against attackers.


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## Zeny

Oh the dude who demonstrated the 'chieh jin' is the centre brown attired dude in the sing ong laval facebook page.


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## Xue Sheng

Zeny said:


> When practising the unbalancing act, the opponent is standing with his back against a couch. This allows the unbalancing act to be properly trained, as it is probably impossible to even commence training if the opponent is free to take backward steps every time you try to unbalance him. Unbalancing an opponent and causing him to fall over and for his buttocks to hit the floor is more difficult in an open area, but not impossible. Personally for me i just resort to bouncing my partner after i unbalance him during training in an open area (when the two couches in the classroom are occupied by other students).
> 
> Fajin is trained in an open area, but there is a mattress placed vertically against the wall. This is so that the partner is not injured when his back slams against the wall. However, as most seasoned students are usually quite sung and soft, it is quite difficult to slam them as well, so most fajin probably just causes them to take 1-2 steps back.



What I thought...thanks


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## oaktree

Zeny said:


> When practising the unbalancing act, the opponent is standing with his back against a couch. This allows the unbalancing act to be properly trained, as it is probably impossible to even commence training if the opponent is free to take backward steps every time you try to unbalance him. Unbalancing an opponent and causing him to fall over and for his buttocks to hit the floor is more difficult in an open area, but not impossible. Personally for me i just resort to bouncing my partner after i unbalance him during training in an open area (when the two couches in the classroom are occupied by other students).
> 
> Fajin is trained in an open area, but there is a mattress placed vertically against the wall. This is so that the partner is not injured when his back slams against the wall. However, as most seasoned students are usually quite sung and soft, it is quite difficult to slam them as well, so most fajin probably just causes them to take 1-2 steps back.


Soooooo.......basically You push people back until they trip over a couch


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## Zeny

That’s a training method. In open areas you change and adapt. There are merits and demerits in this training method, all of which are quite obvious, so it is not necessary to debate that.

Like I have said, the main aim of the practice is not to ask you to try unbalance an opponent with a light touch during a real fight when the attacker is out to hurt you. It is to practise all the other things that I have said, sensitivity, awareness, leading, etc. And that’s the whole point of push hands, isn’t it.


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## oaktree

Push hands can be nothing but an exercise or in the deeper meaning a test of one's skill and a challenge depends on the context.
My sifu has been in push hands and has even received a head butt during it so ya it can be real serious. I am also in the camp that if you can push me back doesn't mean much and even to the ground because I will take you down and we can see if you have any ground work. 
In essence let me put it this way, knocking someone back or down does not mean you win the fight .


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## oaktree

I just wanted to show that not everyone who does Taijiquan or push hands is doing it with pillows and couches.


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## Zeny

I would be the first to admit that i have no skill in ground work.

As for the above video, I believe such training is beneficial in several aspects, but it would be quite difficult to practise subtlety and soft neutralization with that manner of pushing. There is no one method of training that addresses everything.


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## mograph

oaktree said:


> In essence let me put it this way, knocking someone back or down does not mean you win the fight .


But it might give you a chance to run away.


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## Tez3

mograph said:


> But it might give you a chance to run away.



Not with my knees lol 

One of the reasons I've been focusing on groundwork is that I don't have to stand!


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## oaktree

Zeny said:


> I would be the first to admit that i have no skill in ground work.
> 
> As for the above video, I believe such training is beneficial in several aspects, but it would be quite difficult to practise subtlety and soft neutralization with that manner of pushing. There is no one method of training that addresses everything.


Well that is closer to how actual fighting is then pushing someone with pillow hands.


mograph said:


> But it might give you a chance to run away.


It might or a knife or bullet in your back.


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## Zeny

I am extremely proud of my pillow hands. It has taken many years and a lot of hard work and dedication to achieve this. Oh the joy of bouncing friends with a pillow!


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## mograph

oaktree said:


> Well that is closer to how actual fighting is then pushing someone with pillow hands.
> 
> It might or a knife or bullet in your back.


As much as debating the nature of fighting on the street would enliven a tai chi thread (_mea culpa_ for my part), we might want to recall good ol' Porkins:


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## oaktree

Didn't porkins get killed


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## oaktree

Zeny said:


> I am extremely proud of my pillow hands. It has taken many years and a lot of hard work and dedication to achieve this. Oh the joy of bouncing friends with a pillow!


You sound like a girl scout slumber party


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## Xue Sheng

Taiji, from my experience is exactly what old books say, cotton covered steal. It feels soft, heck, my sifu feels very soft and relaxed, but his arms can be very heavy when there on you and he is not using force. He can also explode and knock you over and still stay relaxed and his other applications, even qinna, are relaxed.

It is not a pillow, he is not limp, but yet feels soft to the touch. And it is very hard to find his center to do anything and he does easily move out of the way of force coming at him as well and he is in his 70s. But there is nothing I would ever refer to in his use and application to taiji as limp or pillow.

I will say this much about this conversation, it has given me a different approach to my impending talk with my sifu that is soon to come, and for that I am grateful


----------



## Buka

oaktree said:


> I just wanted to show that not everyone who does Taijiquan or push hands is doing it with pillows and couches.



That was really cool, thanks for posting that.

I've been enjoying the hell out of this thread. Especially now that I'm doing Tai-chi. But with two ears and one mouth, I think I'll listen twice as much as speak.


----------



## Tez3

oaktree said:


> You sound like a girl scout slumber party



I take it you have never been on one? Trust me, Girl Guides ( and Brownies) are awesome and a slumber party ( sleepover we call them here, both inaccurate as little sleeping is involved) is something to be truly feared! it takes me two days to get over one night.

In my karate we have 'heavy hands', relaxed strikes that hurt like hell but when we punch though we are relaxed until the strike anyway.


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## Xue Sheng

Push hands, this is the son of my Shigong and a good friend of my sifu, the late Tung Hu Ling






This is a great example of what looks magical or qi projection silliness or like the person he is doing push hand with is jumping away and that really is not at all with it is. It is a person, who has spent many years training taiji and can find the other guys center and knows where the other guys root is and knows exactly where, when and how to push. I have felt much of this doing push hands with my sifu and I assure you I did not leap out of the way once, but I have more than once found myself on the floor wondering exactly yow I got there


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## oaktree

Tez3 said:


> I take it you have never been on one? Trust me, Girl Guides ( and Brownies) are awesome and a slumber party ( sleepover we call them here, both inaccurate as little sleeping is involved) is something to be truly feared! it takes me two days to get over one night.
> 
> In my karate we have 'heavy hands', relaxed strikes that hurt like hell but when we punch though we are relaxed until the strike anyway.


My daughter is two so not yet, we are doing ballet now
So it true girl scout slumber party are full of pillow fights and tiger beat gossip


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## oaktree

Xue Sheng said:


> Push hands, this is the son of my Shigong and a good friend of my sifu, the late Tung Hu Ling
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a great example of what looks magical or qi projection silliness or like the person he is doing push hand with is jumping away and that really is not at all with it is. It is a person, who has spent many years training taiji and can find the other guys center and knows where the other guys root is and knows exactly where, when and how to push. I have felt much of this doing push hands with my sifu and I assure you I did not leap out of the way once, but I have more than once found myself on the floor wondering exactly yow I got there


Great clip nice display of all the key energies and concepts. And you can definitely see was not limp but peng and relaxed when following and sticking. You have to have some peng in order to fa jin which you can see at the 1:24 Mark. I am curious to see how zenys teacher or a video showing what he is referring to.


----------



## Tez3

oaktree said:


> My daughter is two so not yet, we are doing ballet now
> So it true girl scout slumber party are full of pillow fights and tiger beat gossip



Sorry to disappoint you, it's more about how much homework there is, the pressure of exams ( big thing), bullying at school etc. Much more serious than you'd imagine and much more depressing for adults because children don't seem to be able to be children for long.

Martial arts however are something that is so good for children, doesn't matter what style, just training is brilliant for them and of course the rewards are amazing. It's one reason I am so serious about martial arts I want children and young people to have good training, not anything which says it's good but is actually just make believe. it's also the reason I haunt all the other styles sections, I want to know more about everything and to be able to pass it on.


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## Xue Sheng

My youngest is in Aikido and the only kid in the class that has asked to learn Ukemi and Randori.... and her sensei started working with her on them


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## ChenAn

oaktree said:


> I just wanted to show that not everyone who does Taijiquan or push hands is doing it with pillows and couches.



This the same person (Mike) who pushed with Chen Bing in MMA gym a while ago. 

The only impressive thing about this video is that Mike is totally cooperate to make Chen Ziqiang too looks good.

Sorry to say it. Great unimpressive village stuff.
And yes I wrestled with both Chen Ziqiang and Chen Bing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zeny

Buka said:


> I've been enjoying the hell out of this thread. Especially now that I'm doing Tai-chi. But with two ears and one mouth, I think I'll listen twice as much as speak.



For me that's the main purpose of this thread. Glad to know that it has served its purpose!


----------



## Zeny

oaktree said:


> I am curious to see how zenys teacher or a video showing what he is referring to.



My school practises a strict 'no video' policy. But i can imagine that it would be very interesting for those who have never seen it before to see a high level person doing the manner of pushing i have described.

During my first seminar a few years back my jaw literally dropped. My teacher who has 25 years in white crane boxing and judo and later 20 odd years in taichi was dominated completely without any use of force. It looked to me like if he moved he's dead. If he didn't move he's dead too. And my teacher could dominate anyone in my class, many of whom have 8 or more years of consistent taijiquan practice.

The biggest advantage i've gained from the seminar is to see how high a level of skill that a person could reach in taijiquan. The ladder is so high that i told myself i better start climbing hard.


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## oaktree

ChenAn said:


> This the same person (Mike) who pushed with Chen Bing in MMA gym a while ago.
> 
> The only impressive thing about this video is that Mike is totally cooperate to make Chen Ziqiang too looks good.
> 
> Sorry to say it. Great unimpressive village stuff.
> And yes I wrestled with both Chen Ziqiang and Chen Bing.
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Chenan you missed the point congratulations. The point WAS to show that not everyone goes light in sparing, push hands and that this is closer to a real fight then light hand push hands.


----------



## oaktree

Zeny said:


> My school practises a strict 'no video' policy. But i can imagine that it would be very interesting for those who have never seen it before to see a high level person doing the manner of pushing i have described.
> 
> During my first seminar a few years back my jaw literally dropped. My teacher who has 25 years in white crane boxing and judo and later 20 odd years in taichi was dominated completely without any use of force. It looked to me like if he moved he's dead. If he didn't move he's dead too. And my teacher could dominate anyone in my class, many of whom have 8 or more years of consistent taijiquan practice.
> 
> The biggest advantage i've gained from the seminar is to see how high a level of skill that a person could reach in taijiquan. The ladder is so high that i told myself i better start climbing hard.


 this post makes me want to puke rainbows.  it's like talking to the choreographer for west side story talking about how real their fight scene is. 
I can tell zeny you have never been in a real altercation you are more care bear then grizzly bear.


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## ChenAn

oaktree said:


> Chenan you missed the point congratulations. The point WAS to show that not everyone goes light in sparing, push hands and that this is closer to a real fight then light hand push hands.



 I don't miss a real point. Push hands traditionally is not a fighting but training . Chen village reinvented it, and so it became a some sort of wrestling.

Yes it sort of look impressive for taiji practitioner. But it's mainly because that is as close as one can get to real fighting with modern village Chen. Otherwise, they have to learn sanda which doesn't look anything like taiji. And during the match it is hard to tell which one of two fighters is actually representing Chen taiji




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Zeny

Let's keep to the point of this thread. This thread is about push hands and not punching or fighting.


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## mograph

oaktree said:


> Didn't porkins get killed


His martial technique was lacking! More push hands, Porkins!


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## Xue Sheng

Zeny said:


> Let's keep to the point of this thread. This thread is about push hands and not punching or fighting.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Zeny said:


> Let's keep to the point of this thread. This thread is about push hands and not punching or fighting.



However, in a more freestyle push hands (Tung YIng Chieh Lineage) you are training for fighting applications, there can be strikes, there is definitely qinna, up rooting and takedowns. But it is still not fighting. There is a one step push hands in my lineage that is much faster paced (think something like randori in aikido), but even that is not fighting

However, it does not look like the sanda of the 20th generation Chen family, so ChenAn is making a point about push hands and how it seems to be changing, and not for the better, IMO. It is great Martial arts, works quite well actually and it is quicker to learn than actually learning how taiji traditionally works in a fight. But it is still not, IMO, taijiquan, it is mostly sports based Sanda


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## oaktree

ChenAn said:


> I don't miss a real point. Push hands traditionally is not a fighting but training . Chen village reinvented it, and so it became a some sort of wrestling.
> 
> Yes it sort of look impressive for taiji practitioner. But it's mainly because that is as close as one can get to real fighting with modern village Chen. Otherwise, they have to learn sanda which doesn't look anything like taiji. And during the match it is hard to tell which one of two fighters is actually representing Chen taiji
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Actually Push hands can be a test of someones skill and can be issued as a challange, My teacher has been head butted in push hands among other things so lets not try to paint Push hands as Paddy cake. 
I am saying that video shows more closer to actual fighting then playing paddy cake which is kinda of what zeny is saying.
Real fighting is fast, most cases close in and brutal what Zeny is talking about is fluff and BS


----------



## mograph

The technique of expressing/directing force can be relevant to training, competition, push hands, or to fighting.

Can we stick to discussing the relative effectiveness of different methods of directing one's own effort/force or redirecting the opponent's effort/force?


----------



## oaktree

Let me give you where I am coming from: this is my hometown, this is Level he was a gang member who now owes his own gym he got the name Level from what I was told from leveling people to the ground. I have a friend who trains with him.


----------



## oaktree

mograph said:


> Can we stick to discussing the relative effectiveness of different methods of directing one's own effort/force or redirecting the opponent's effort/force?


I think the thread is about lightness or no force which clearly turned this thread into BS and realisim in the internal arts.
I am getting kinda of tired of debating it as I see clearly by some posts that some people have either never been in a fight or seen one and to debate with someone about realism vs BS theories is counterproductive so with that said I am done with this BS thread


----------



## Zeny

Oaktree, i know where you are coming from, and yes the fights in that video are brutal, but that video probably is more relevant in an MMA thread than a taijiquan thread don't you think?

Here the discussion is about subtlety, neutralization, effortlessness, balance, sensitivity, strategy, awareness and guile.

i'm pretty sure most of us know the limits of our non-violent push hands training and are not so deluded as to think that just because we know how to do some push hands translates to we know how to fight.


----------



## mograph

oaktree said:


> I think the thread is about lightness or no force which clearly turned this thread into BS and realisim in the internal arts.
> I am getting kinda of tired of debating it as I see clearly by some posts that some people have either never been in a fight or seen one and to debate with someone about realism vs BS theories is counterproductive so with that said I am done with this BS thread



Well, I tried to see if "no force" actually meant "some force, but not a lot, and no excessive tension" -- that's why I recommended getting definitions up front.
I also would like to see distinction between what the force transmitter feels, versus what the force receiver feels. 

Yeah. I feel your pain, but is it also possible to use taijiquan methods in a rhetorical sense? To lead someone into emptiness in an argument, as it were?


----------



## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> The technique of expressing/directing force can be relevant to training, competition, push hands, or to fighting.
> 
> Can we stick to discussing the relative effectiveness of different methods of directing one's own effort/force or redirecting the opponent's effort/force?



In such hands and in taiji applications 'patience' and 'confidence' are very important. One needs confidence in ones own skill in order to not panic in either situation and patience is very important in the realm of using as little effort as possible and/or being able to redirect the other guy.

An example I have used on MT before, the qinna of my sifu. He has the best I have ever come across, never feel it coming, never know it is going to happen, just all of a sudden I am locked. When asking him how he does this his answer was "you lock yourself" after much questioning on what that means I get the explanation that he waits until I am in the position to be locked, never forces it, just waits and then I am locked. He does not use strength of fajin just locks me. The flip side of this is that to avoid such thing you need to become very aware as to where your body is and what it is doing at all times. There are a lot of similar things in taijiquan and in taiji push hands. small circles come in handy for redirection and neutralizing force for example. You use little effort, appearance of effortless (appearance only) and yet you can neutralize a lot of force in that manor. This is the stuff that gets lost when applying sanda to things


----------



## ChenAn

oaktree said:


> Actually Push hands can be a test of someones skill and can be issued as a challange, My teacher has been head butted in push hands among other things so lets not try to paint Push hands as Paddy cake.
> I am saying that video shows more closer to actual fighting then playing paddy cake which is kinda of what zeny is saying.
> Real fighting is fast, most cases close in and brutal what Zeny is talking about is fluff and BS



OK let me put this way. Push hands can be be whatever, but it original  purpose to let  practitioners to develop skills. Wrestling and any other kind of derivative of push hands are neither free fighting nor traditional training method, it's more like a modern sport. 

Traditional taiji fight is about maiming an opponent. It means  anything goes. As any martial arts taiji has its own "game". The problem is not many people in the modern world aware or knowledgeable enough to go beyond push hands.


----------



## Xue Sheng

ChenAn said:


> OK let me put this way. Push hands can be be whatever, but it original  purpose to let  practitioners to develop skills. Wrestling and any other kind of derivative of push hands are neither free fighting nor traditional training method, it's more like a modern sport.
> 
> Traditional taiji fight is about maiming an opponent. It means  anything goes. As any martial arts taiji has its own "game". The problem is not many people in the modern world aware or knowledgeable enough to go beyond push hands.



Good point, not many in taiji these days realize that applications to things like (扇通背) (shan4 tong1 bei4) "Fan Through the Back", can break an elbow (you should see the look on students faces when I tell them some of the Dao applications). Once was at a seminar with Dr. John Painter and he talked about many missing the point of push hands and how things like "Competition push hands" are completely missing the point and ruining push hands training. Truth be known, I agree with him. If someone takes the time to look at the applications to many of the postures in taijiquan they are brutal, many for maiming the other guy.

The push hands I have trained and do is trained in various levels; stationary, moving, 3 step, 1 step, following, free style. And at higher levels (free style) you get into applications  However it is more to using the applications properly, not forcing or muscling it. It is, like I said, kind of like Aikido Randori, and like Randori, it is still not fighting.

It is through, relaxation and "lightness" ,if you allow me to quote the OP, that you apply taijiquan and it is push hands training that gets you to better understand how this 'relaxation' or 'lightness' (if you will) works for the proper application of taijiquan that so many miss these days and instead go for quicker to learn, more 'powerful looking', more energy intensive, methods like those in Sanda


----------



## Zeny

I don't agree with xue sheng on many things, but i completely agree with the above post. taijiquan prides itself as a gentleman's art, and emphasizes relaxation, sensitivity, lightness, neutralization etc. if a person wants 'powerful looking' moves, there are other more suitable arts out there.


----------



## Xue Sheng

You are right, we do not agree on many things, and I have to say I feel the term "gentleman's art" it is pure ego and arrogance.

Taijiquan is taijiquan and there are things in it that can be incredibly powerful and they may even look powerful, but the difference is in the execution.


----------



## mograph

ChenAn said:


> Push hands can be be whatever, but it original  purpose to let  practitioners to develop skills. Wrestling and any other kind of derivative of push hands are neither free fighting nor traditional training method, it's more like a modern sport.
> 
> Traditional taiji fight is about maiming an opponent. It means  anything goes. As any martial arts taiji has its own "game". The problem is not many people in the modern world aware or knowledgeable enough to go beyond push hands.


Yes. I think that regarding tai chi, modern students are in a hurry in two ways:

1. ... to get competitive with push hands. After they learn a bit of push hands, they want to test its efficacy and test themselves. So they come up with competitions. Maybe that would be fine if the goal of the competitions were to express push hands principles best, but those competitions would probably not be very exciting, and it would be hard to measure skill level ("Red sash was more subtle! Point to red!"  ). So we have modern PH competitions that resemble wrestling.

2. ... to test tai chi in an existing sphere, such as in the ring. But as you wrote, tai chi is about maiming and injuring people, and (for example) breaking arms, as Xue Sheng wrote. But that can't be tested legally, so tai chi gets a reputation for being useless. Add to this the likelihood that tai chi people aren't likely to get into bar fights, and again: it gets the reputation for being useless. 

(Some should note that I'm not saying that tai chi is bad*ss because it aims to break elbows and knees; our joints (for example) are pretty fragile when hit from some angles. Otherwise, ring fighting wouldn't have a lot of the injury-preventing rules that it does, right?)

... so students don't go beyond push hands. Add to this the likelihood that more tai chi teachers learn from teachers who don't go beyond push hands, and the art suffers, yes?


----------



## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> 2. ... to test tai chi in an existing sphere, such as in the ring. But as you wrote, tai chi is about maiming and injuring people, and (for example) breaking arms, as Xue Sheng wrote. But that can't be tested legally,



It can't be.....oops...NOW you tell me .



mograph said:


> (Some should note that I'm not saying that tai chi is bad*ss because it aims to break elbows and knees; our joints (for example) are pretty fragile when hit from some angles. Otherwise, ring fighting wouldn't have a lot of the injury-preventing rules that it does, right?)
> 
> ... so students don't go beyond push hands. Add to this the likelihood that more tai chi teachers learn from teachers who don't go beyond push hands, and the art suffers, yes?



I agree with your post. But I should add there are applications that are less violent in nature, that are joint locks and strikes. However, many do not want to train those, nor should they be forced too. Manny do not want to be taught anything but form and they have their reasons, be that health, fitness, or moving mediation. And again, I do not think they should be forced to learn otherwise. Frankly that is the future of Taijiquan, of that I have no doubt. The only thing on the entire topic that does annoy me is those that get upset or angry when someone does know, or wish to train or teach the MA/SD of it.


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> The only thing on the entire topic that does annoy me is those that get upset or angry when someone does know, or wish to train or teach the MA/SD of it.


Yes. I've met a number of students who bristled at the idea of learning "martial tai chi." Blech.


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## ChenAn

mograph said:


> (Some should note that I'm not saying that tai chi is bad*ss because it aims to break elbows and knees; our joints (for example) are pretty fragile when hit from some angles. Otherwise, ring fighting wouldn't have a lot of the injury-preventing rules that it does, right?)



Not quite. Yes ring could be a good test of skill, but only in sports. The problem is that taiji is so deadly, the problem it was never designed as sport /competition. Many CMA evolved around occasional "lei tai" to boost prestige  or stand for school reputation. It was a public business which require students/income and so on. In contrast, taiji was family art, and kept pretty much secrete until Yang Luchan. In case of Chen family until beginning of 20th century.  

I would dare to compare taiji to Roman gladiators. They train with great concern of the safely to avoid the injury. But when they fight anything go. Since in modern time "mortal combat" is not common, so the art usage never being tested  - just get passed from one generation to another. Yes, it does deteriorate but yet if accurately passed can retain it's potential.    

I can't for all taiji method but in my line for example there is a proper way of eye gouging and "whole nine yard" surrounding that process. Not really sport friendly but when anything goes then anything goes


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