# Getting old with Kenpo



## Old Kenpo Warrior (May 19, 2022)

Hello Kenpo folk
                I began my Kenpo journey in 1968, studying with Larry Robbins to green belt, and moved on to John Stevenson where I received my 3rd Black Belt. For a brief period, I was under the roof of Rod Martain in Mountain View California. I've used Kenpo in real street-fighting situations on numerous occasions. I still have a white scar, about an 8th of an inch long where I got nicked when I faced a knife-wielding attacker in Golden Gate Park. I got a nick he got a broken arm. My point with this story is that I'm hearing a great deal these days that Kenp doesn't work on the street. Enough! It works. I'm 70 years old and practice my Kenpo techniques every day. I retired from teaching four years ago. These days I limit my kicks to below the waist. I work speed drills and the power cell of every technique.
Just wondering if there are any other old Kenpo Warriors still active.


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

That is not how you prove something works. 

Which might be why you get the reaction to kempo that you do.


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## Old Kenpo Warrior (May 20, 2022)

Hmm, Drop Bear, thank you for your reply. I was surprised at your answer: "That is not how you prove something." Indeed there are many ways to test something. With Kenpo, a form of self-defense, being able to use it to defend one's self would seem a good test. Over decades of visiting Dojos and watching as an attacking student would throw a punch and then stand frozen whiled the defender student riddled him with strikes seemed to me to be a good way of instilling a FALSE sense of the technique's ability to function as a defense against attack. I have seen really good Kata as well as great tournament sparring technique yet neither would be a good test. What would you recommend?
Full Respect
Old Kenpo Warrior


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

I think the test for proof is it at least has to be more believable that crystal healing. 

Does it work? Well this random person used it and says it does.

She tuned into me with such clarity, and the specific piece I got felt like it was for me the moment I saw it.

Over the past six years I have collected several more specimens through her via Place 8 Healing, both in person and online. *Each of these crystals feels incredibly alive, introducing themselves clearly and ready to be of service - something I rarely encounter in crystals from crystal shops*. No matter how beautifully curated, I tend to find other places that specialize in crystals to be overwhelming and confusing energetically.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 20, 2022)

Old Kenpo Warrior said:


> Hmm, Drop Bear, thank you for your reply. I was surprised at your answer: "That is not how you prove something." Indeed there are many ways to test something. With Kenpo, a form of self-defense, being able to use it to defend one's self would seem a good test. Over decades of visiting Dojos and watching as an attacking student would throw a punch and then stand frozen whiled the defender student riddled him with strikes seemed to me to be a good way of instilling a FALSE sense of the technique's ability to function as a defense against attack. I have seen really good Kata as well as great tournament sparring technique yet neither would be a good test. What would you recommend?
> Full Respect
> Old Kenpo Warrior


Keep in mind before you read the below that I've trained in different styles of kenpo/kempo and do believe it works. But, there's a couple issues with you proving it that way.

The first is, while it may be proof for you that kenpo works, it does nothing to prove it for me (or others on here). To prove it for me, you'd have to have proof that you are telling the truth (not that I disbelieve you, but I have no reason to believe you are or aren't telling the truth, so the story does nothing). That would mean some sort of video or news article about it. 

The second is, even if we have proof you are telling the truth, how do we know that kenpo was actually the reason you won the fights you were in. How do we know that it wasn't your athleticism that won it, or naturally good reflexes, or you just got lucky? Or maybe kenpo did help you, but  If we look at the reverse, if someone practiced kenpo and then lost a fight, is that proof that kenpo doesn't work?

Finally, let's say we had proof kenpo was the difference. Say we had it on video, and you were clearly doing a kenpo technique you otherwise wouldn't have known, in a way that you could only do if you practiced it. What is the proof that if you hadn't trained TKD or judo or boxing (or even spent the time cross-country running) you wouldn't have come out of it with no scar?

That's not to say I have a better way to prove what does or doesn't work. The best way I guess would be do a statistical analysis of MMA and/or multi-style weapons fights and see who wins/loses most often and if style seems statistically significant in that, but even that has it's own set of flaws. I'm just pointing out why your experience doesn't allow the definitive "it works" statement.

It's something that's true in most sciences as well. There's a reason that people learn now when writing research papers not to say "This proves" or "due to this, we _know", _or anything else definitive like that, but instead say this supports or this suggests. It's also where a lot of media today messes up, as they'll state that "X study shows that Y happens", when it only suggests that Y happens, and then people take it as bible.

Okay that last bit is off-topic but hopefully most of what I wrote makes sense.


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## Flying Crane (May 20, 2022)

Ok, as an ex-Tracy kenpo guy, I will say that there is no “proof” that any martial art works.  All we can say is that this person successfully used skills that he learned from training X system, on this day, against that opponent.  The next encounter could end the same, or very differently. 

Anyone who decides to train in a martial method needs to find a method that makes sense to them, that keeps them interested in the training process, and that they enjoy.  In addition, they need to find a good teacher who is knowledgeable and competent, and with whom they are comfortable training.  All of these factors could have different answers for different people.  What is an excellent training choice for me, could be disastrous for the next fellow.   

It isn’t that kenpo works or does not work.  I decided that for me, the Tracy kenpo method was not a good choice.  I found that I could not relate well to the curriculum structure and training methods; these were a source of frustration for me and I never felt confident in the skills that I was building.  So I stopped training Tracy kenpo.  However, I know that my instructor believes heavily in the method and has used it many times in his law enforcement years and time in the military.  For him, it is a good choice.   Many other people can make a similar conclusion.  

So there is no way to say objectively that any system works or does not work.  It depends on who is doing it, and it depends on the situational circumstances, and probably a fair bit of luck in the mix as well. 

There are many approaches to training that different systems take.  People can develop competency with most any of them, if it is a good match for them and they get quality instruction in the method.  Some methods are more popular than others, and that is fine.  But not everyone relates to or is interested in those methods, so they train in other methods.  It does not matter what method someone trains, it does not matter if it is obscure or rare or simply not popular in the main.  If someone relates to the method and develops competency, then it is difficult to argue against it. 

People really ought to keep their own house clean and not worry about how others are training, and not worry about what others may think about how they train.  Just train in something that you find interesting, and dont worry about it beyond that.


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## Old Kenpo Warrior (May 20, 2022)

Hello All
                     I'm not sure where to start. I guess first I should say that some things if done in the same way by five different people will, depending on what that thing was, will produce the same effect. The variables of course, as you said, depends on the skill set, focus, timing, balance, and half a dozen other factors. So yes, Kenpo worked for me. Coming out a winner in a street fight is perhaps nothing but an odds game and wouldn't you agree that a martial art stacks the odds on your side. I know, I know-how has the attacker stacked the odds. Based on the odds game argument the winner in a fight is indeterminable. In your first sentence, you say that you believe Kenpo works. On what do you base that belief??? I also have trained in a variety of martial arts and I base my belief that it works on mine and the experience of others, I worked with the police in Phoenix Arizona in the 1970s, and the San Jose police for a short stint in the early 1970s. More recently I worked one-on-one with a  detective in Medford Oregon. I received positive feedback from Law enforcement that what I taught them worked...not sure what they base their feedback on. Of course, you have no proof, articles, or video that I'm telling the truth. You could read my book Survival Self Defense. Wait a minute. don't get me wrong, I'm not taking offense to your question of my truth-telling, and I do have a DVD that I put out about ten years ago. But hey, where is the Kenpo Brother trust? I first taught  Kenpo in 1968 for California's Fremont Union high school district at Cupertino High school. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt...
Full Respect
Old Kenpo Warrior


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

Yeah something like that. So for example this is Lachlan guiles who sells a leg lock system.





And this is him demonstrating his method on everyone in the room.








So this would be a good indication his ideas kind of work. Now anecdotally I can say I know people who have done his seminars who have come back with a very effective leg lock game.

Or we could look at his competition record and see him against elite fighters






Or just look on line for people recommending his systems.









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Or even go to his club and test it which is just that. Rather than some challenge fight to the death.






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Open mat. So they give an opportunity for you to spar or roll with their guys. As part of their structured training.


And so potentially on their own each may be open to speculation. But as the evidence adds up from multiple sources. It becomes proof.

And this is just one guy. You basically have all of kempo.


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## Old Kenpo Warrior (May 20, 2022)

Hello All
               I'm not sure what having a video of a leg lock is supposed to prove. I can make a lot of moves work on the mat. Honestly, I want to stay on my feet. Rolling around on the pavement, dirt or gravel is going to leave you torn up no matter if you win or lose. Besides, is any kind of combat that has rules really apply to a street fight. Wow, this conversation lost its focus. Happy trails all, full respect always.
Old Kenpo Warrior


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## drop bear (May 20, 2022)

Old Kenpo Warrior said:


> Hello All
> I'm not sure what having a video of a leg lock is supposed to prove. I can make a lot of moves work on the mat. Honestly, I want to stay on my feet. Rolling around on the pavement, dirt or gravel is going to leave you torn up no matter if you win or lose. Besides, is any kind of combat that has rules really apply to a street fight. Wow, this conversation lost its focus. Happy trails all, full respect always.
> Old Kenpo Warrior



It is just an easy example how you would build a case that a system works. 

Easy because all the information is basically there. 

It doesn't matter the system. I could have(with more effort) proven a chair exists or that punches hurt pretty much the same way. 

So that when someone says kempo doesn't work. You could say yes it does because this, this and this.


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## punisher73 (May 24, 2022)

I see both sides of it.

I train in martial art X and it works for ME, because of x, y and z. 

If I want to make a broader statement of "martial art x" works, then I need to have other supportive stuff.  For example, other documented cases of it working from other people.

One thing I have noticed though in ANY martial art (not to kick a dead horse, but...) is that the mindset is one of the most (if not the most) important aspects to make it work and many times it will come down to training methods to refine that.  Some people have it more naturally through a hard life while others have to get hard training to develop it.

Let's say I take a somewhat timid person and train them in boxing and show them the skills and have them hit the heavy bag and pads, but never put them in the ring and never have them get hit, and then put them against a kyokushin karate person who is used to getting hit and hard sparring etc. what do we think the outcome is going to be?

Its a big factor on why combat sports tend to do better with things.  The timid people either develop the mindset they need or they quit.  Its possible in many strip mall MA schools to have someone train that has never hard sparred or been really hit.

I have known MANY people in the last 30 years who have trained in MANY different arts that have used it successfully in a street altercation.  From wrestling to boxing to karate to TKD to Judo to even Aikido.  ALL of them had a strong mindset and determination to apply their art and trained their art to make it their own.


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

I have a question to some posting here....Kenpo worked for @Old Kenpo Warrior.... why are folks trying so hard to tell him it didn't?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2022)

@Old Kenpo Warrior I just want to clarify again my stance. I find kenpo useful and effective personally. I was just trying to explain how 'proof' works from a scientific perspective, which most aren't actually looking for. 

There's plenty you can do and learn without some sort of double-blind study, the question is just how far along the scale of "It should theoretically work and that's all I need" to "I've put 200 randomized people in a room, taught half of them this technique and attacked all of them, and here are the videos and an analysis of the results", you're personally comfortable with, since no one is reaching the one extreme.


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## drop bear (May 24, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have a question to some posting here....Kenpo worked for @Old Kenpo Warrior.... why are folks trying so hard to tell him it didn't?



It is a low bar for "works". And if you set a low bar then you are less able to improve people's lives.

It becomes this happiness vs fulfilment deal. Where martial arts it put on par with video games or drugs. It makes people happy but it doesn't really achieve anything. 

And martial arts should be better than that.


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It is a low bar for "works". And if you set a low bar then you are less able to improve people's lives.
> 
> It becomes this happiness vs fulfilment deal. Where martial arts it put on par with video games or drugs. It makes people happy but it doesn't really achieve anything.
> 
> And martial arts should be better than that.



First, I am not a fan of Kenpo, just does not appeal to me. But others love it.

Does his post put martial arts on par with a video game? I do not see it as such.  It is personal experience and Kenpo works for him based on that. I have used Taijiquan and qinna in multiple confrontation when I was security at a hospital with a mental health and detox unit. And it worked great for what I needed to do. Does that put it on par with a video game? It worked well for me for the situation I was in. There is no time for testing or scientific study or control groups. The charging. bleeding heroin addict, or the guy brought in on a mental health warrant, or the drugged ou pro wrestler, needs to be restrained before he hurts a doctor or nurse (dealt with all three) . Would that work in an MMA ring? Likely not. But it worked for what I needed.

But ultimately his post concluded with

"Just wondering if there are any other old Kenpo Warriors still active." 

The answer to that is sadly most of them stopped coming to MT years ago

I don't feel he was trying to push an agenda, just don't understand those trying to tell him his personal experience is wrong


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> But ultimately his post concluded with
> 
> "Just wondering if there are any other old Kenpo Warriors still active."
> 
> The answer to that is sadly most of them stopped coming to MT years ago


I'm just highlighting this for anyone who reads looking for an answer to OP. I believe Xue is right; there were a lot of ken/mpo people on here when I first joined. Since then, it seems most of them have moved to different arts, or no longer post here. Given the reaction some here apparently have to kenpo, I'm not surprised.


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## Flying Crane (May 24, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm just highlighting this for anyone who reads looking for an answer to OP. I believe Xue is right; there were a lot of ken/mpo people on here when I first joined. Since then, it seems most of them have moved to different arts, or no longer post here. Given the reaction some here apparently have to kenpo, I'm not surprised.


Part of what happened is that a sister forum was opened, Kenpotalk.com, where most of the kenpo folks from here migrated to and tended to no longer post here.  That site was recently shut down.  That site was very active for a while, but gradually slowed down until it became all but dead for the last several years.  

I was active on both sites, and an observation of mine was that it was in something of a bubble, talking all kenpo, all the time, and could have benefitted from insights offered by people from other systems.  The other thing is that kenpo can be a bit tribal and people don’t always find that they have much to talk about, the overarching theme of kenpo not being enough to stimulate ongoing discussions. 

At any rate, the kenpo community seldom participated in discussions here anymore, but was very active when I first joined the forum.


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## drop bear (May 24, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> First, I am not a fan of Kenpo, just does not appeal to me. But others love it.
> 
> Does his post put martial arts on par with a video game? I do not see it as such.  It is personal experience and Kenpo works for him based on that. I have used Taijiquan and qinna in multiple confrontation when I was security at a hospital with a mental health and detox unit. And it worked great for what I needed to do. Does that put it on par with a video game? It worked well for me for the situation I was in. There is no time for testing or scientific study or control groups. The charging. bleeding heroin addict, or the guy brought in on a mental health warrant, or the drugged ou pro wrestler, needs to be restrained before he hurts a doctor or nurse (dealt with all three) . Would that work in an MMA ring? Likely not. But it worked for what I needed.
> 
> ...



People use healing crystals and say they work. So they must. Untrained people have defended themselves from heroine addicts. So that works as well. 

So at the moment kempo and 
Taijiquan, with the evidence we have, works as well as those. 

If you are happy with that standard then good for you. 

You could change your standards so works actually means something. But if you don't want to to that is also fine. 

But this lack of standard is why people say your system doesn't work.

I am not stopping old Kenpo practitioners from discussing whatever they want. I do not have that ability.


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## Xue Sheng (May 24, 2022)

drop bear said:


> People use healing crystals and say they work. So they must. Untrained people have defended themselves from heroine addicts. So that works as well.
> 
> So at the moment kempo and
> Taijiquan, with the evidence we have, works as well as those.
> ...



Ahh, healing crystals..... nice use of a diversionary tactic to attempt to undermine my post..off balance and change the discussion...which is completely unassociated and not applicable to the discussion...

So, only testing in what, an MMA ring, or a BJJ mat is acceptable then? How do you change standards?....since real world situations and applications do not seem to be viable to you. You also need to take into consideration that there is a world of difference between testing in a controlled situation and a real world person who is not at all concerned about safety or controlling their anger who does not give a hot about the person they are attacking

And I'm not saying you are stopping anyone, just feel you, and others, are telling him his personal experience is wrong...were you there? Or is it there were no cameras, referees, mats/rings, protective gear, and AC it did not happen and if it did, it is absolute nonsense, is that it?


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## _Simon_ (May 25, 2022)

@drop bear would it be more helpful for him to say "Kenpo can work" or "What I learned in kenpo absolutely helped me" rather than the absolute statement "Kenpo _works_" ?

It seems you still very much have a thing against anecdotal evidence, which on some level I understand. But what he has learned in kenpo has helped him in those situations. I get that people can say literally anything and assume a causal relationship between event and consequence. But I just think life is not a clinical, sterile lab to draw such a conclusion about something as chaotic as a fight.

I can just see this descending into "well his kenpo didn't work, his fists did / his genetics did / his parents giving birth to him did".


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## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ahh, healing crystals..... nice use of a diversionary tactic to attempt to undermine my post..off balance and change the discussion...which is completely unassociated and not applicable to the discussion...
> 
> So, only testing in what, an MMA ring, or a BJJ mat is acceptable then? How do you change standards?....since real world situations and applications do not seem to be viable to you. You also need to take into consideration that there is a world of difference between testing in a controlled situation and a real world person who is not at all concerned about safety or controlling their anger who does not give a hot about the person they are attacking
> 
> And I'm not saying you are stopping anyone, just feel you, and others, are telling him his personal experience is wrong...were you there? Or is it there were no cameras, referees, mats/rings, protective gear, and AC it did not happen and if it did, it is absolute nonsense, is that it?



Ok. 

"You also need to take into consideration that there is a world of difference between testing in a controlled situation and a real world person who is not at all concerned about safety or controlling their anger who does not give a hot about the person they are attacking"

No there isn't. Because I have tested in sport and it works under the above conditions. 

In fact it works better under the above conditions. 

And I can literally show evidence of successful street encounters. (I am pretty sure I still have my police statement somewhere where I took a bow and arrow off an armed robber.)

Without any sort of standard.  Everything is whatever I say it is. And I am benefited by making myself appear more impressive than I am. Because the winner is the guy who appears most convincing. 

It makes martial artists the equivalent of instagram. 

I don't know if Kempo is good or not. But I do know when people subscribe to bad arguments that lead to a dishonest representation of that art. 

This is the standard you are willing to defend. Then this is the standard you accept.

Now.

I explained how to set a better standard. I laid down in a post how I would justify a system with evidence and examples. So that if someone says a system doesn't work. I have mabye more of a counter argument than yes it does. You are mean. 

If you look. That is basically all I did here.

Because the old days of of posters here dog piling insane arguments and insults on people was not the rosy forum you are describing.


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## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> @drop bear would it be more helpful for him to say "Kenpo can work" or "What I learned in kenpo absolutely helped me" rather than the absolute statement "Kenpo _works_" ?
> 
> It seems you still very much have a thing against anecdotal evidence, which on some level I understand. But what he has learned in kenpo has helped him in those situations. I get that people can say literally anything and assume a causal relationship between event and consequence. But I just think life is not a clinical, sterile lab to draw such a conclusion about something as chaotic as a fight.
> 
> I can just see this descending into "well his kenpo didn't work, his fists did / his genetics did / his parents giving birth to him did".



No. Kempo works because this list of examples is just a better more well thought out statement.

And then you show evidence of kempo working somewhere and how their training methods are consistant with results or something.

If you look up in the thread I did a whole thing on lachlan guiles's leglock system to show how you would demonstrate with evidence that something does work.

Otherwise there has now been this argument twice that training success cannot somehow be reflected in a fight. But. Go back to "kempo works"

Is there anything that justifies that argument other than someone said it?

And that is where you start to get the problems you get.

Because what you then get is techniques, systems and ideas that don't work. That as soon as you try them on someone who isn't gifting those techniques to you you basically fail and cannot apply them. 

But you get told they will work on the street under conditions you cannot see or experience because I have done it and it does work. 

And that moves from a critical thinking to theist thinking or belief.


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok.
> 
> "You also need to take into consideration that there is a world of difference between testing in a controlled situation and a real world person who is not at all concerned about safety or controlling their anger who does not give a hot about the person they are attacking"
> 
> ...




I'm not the one talking about a standard...you are.... all I am doing is asking why when @Old Kenpo Warrior says Kenpo works for him. you and others are telling him it doesn't.... you are the one claiming that his claims puts martial arts on a par with video games or drugs. And I don't see association there either, as sensationalized as it was... One's personal experience is generally not transferable you are judging his point of view with your point of view..... and that simply does not work well.

as for the difference, my experience says yes there is a difference, I too have dealt with both...and there is a big difference between facing someone who is wants to win and some one who really wants to hurt you...and I am happy to hear your confrontation did not show you that. But after 60 confrontations in 2 months....sadly my experience taught me otherwise (and I worked there longer than 2 months, I only tracked 2 months)

And to be honest, my original post was not directed at you, I expected this from you and I know there is nothing I, or anyone else would say to change your position..... And there no sense in going on with this, history on MT has taught me, you and I rarely agree and we never will on this.

I have enjoyed this conversation....


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## drop bear (May 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm not the one talking about a standard...you are.... all I am doing is asking why when @Old Kenpo Warrior says Kenpo works for him. you and others are telling him it doesn't.... you are the one claiming that his claims puts martial arts on a par with video games or drugs. And I don't see association there either, as sensationalized as it was... One's personal experience is generally not transferable you are judging his point of view with your point of view..... and that simply does not work well.
> 
> as for the difference, my experience says yes there is a difference, I too have dealt with both...and there is a big difference between facing someone who is wants to win and some one who really wants to hurt you...and I am happy to hear your confrontation did not show you that. But after 60 confrontations in 2 months....sadly my experience taught me otherwise (and I worked there longer than 2 months, I only tracked 2 months)
> 
> ...



Yeah. But it isn't opinion vs opinion. That is where you are making the intellectual mistake. 

I am not forming an opinion. I am saying no evidence was provided that kempo works.

If you have the opinion it works that's fine. But people also have the opinion healing crystals work. 

If you think it is my duty to just believe everyone's opinions. Then you are incorrect there as well. 

If you want people to have the opinion kempo works. Show some sort of reason for people to have that opinion.


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## _Simon_ (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. Kempo works because this list of examples is just a better more well thought out statement.
> 
> And then you show evidence of kempo working somewhere and how their training methods are consistant with results or something.
> 
> ...


Okay.

I do get your thoughts on there has to be a standard, and also that simply someone saying it works doesn't really mean anything.

I just can't understand the whole "this martial arts system is proven to work/ it's all about the system". Some better prepare you for a violent encounter, sure. But again, life is not a clinical, sterile laboratory. With laboratory conditions. That apply DIRECTLY to everyday life in the chaotic nature of violence. With 100% guaranteed "cause-effect".

I agree having a standard and not being delusional are crucial. But the absolutist black and white thinking isn't even the application of critical thinking but a severe departure from that.

And you saying you have proof your system works because of disarming that robber, you're essentially saying that, without fail, if robber after robber after robber come at you, the exact same result will inevitably occur.

I think it's simply healthier and far more accurate to say "kenpo/insert MA here can work..." (the "dot-dot-dot" perhaps being the crucial point). But I get that you care about MA alot and I do respect that you want a standard, and are sick of the delusional claims. I get tired of those too. I'm just putting forward some different thoughts to consider. In our sparring session recently I got punched hard in the nose and kicked in the groin. Did my system fail me? I also parried and evaded alot of strikes and gave a few. Does my system work? Or did those things just happen? It worked sometimes, it didn't in others. I made it work sometimes, I failed to use it in others.

The training you do can certainly reflect in the outcomes of a fight. Absolutely. And for sure someone just saying it obviously doesn't make it so. But it feels more fluid than this and to me seems on more of a spectrum than an either/or thought system. Some better prepare you. I'm not the authority on what ones do that. But applying what you've been training can exist despite it not being from an "evidence-based, full proof system." I'm not saying it's all about the individual, nor am I saying it's all about the system. I think it's a blend of both, and also a smattering of unpredictable stuff we simply can't control in life.

And very much misapplying your thought on the theistic domain here. "Critical thinking" does not engender and cover eeeevery... siiiingle... sphere of life.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> And you saying you have proof your system works because of disarming that robber, you're essentially saying that, without fail, if robber after robber after robber come at you, the exact same result will inevitably occur.



Ok. This. Think about the issue this creates and how you would solve it. 

So the issue is we don't have a repeatable situation that we can base a self defence concept on. . So how do we fix that?


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## _Simon_ (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Ok. This. Think about the issue this creates and how you would solve it.
> 
> So the issue is we don't have a repeatable situation that we can base a self defence concept on. . So how do we fix that?


I think it's not about infallibility in method/result, but more in increasing likelihoods and expertise in situations similar.

There is a severe issue in any black and white lens of "this system works, look at my version of proof". Absolute statements especially when it comes to unpredictable nature of violent encounters can be just as dangerous as saying "oh this happened once, so I'm invincible".

Sometimes it doesn't need to even replicate the "street encounters" to a tee. High pressure physical and psychological training can breed a resilience and ability that can significantly aid you in handling yourself. But not guarantee. That's my main point. You seem to poo-poo anything that doesn't follow this hardcore scientific methodology. Anecdotes don't matter to you in this slightest. What anecdotes DO achieve is they can potentially hint at effectiveness of training in other systems that don't necessarily apply the competition standards you often speak of. What anecdotes can severely fail in is it is essentially word of mouth, and can be misperception, fabrication, delusional, and ending up saying things like a system works (guaranteed).

Enhance and develop physical and mental ability in fighting and under pressure, and it's possible but not guaranteed you will handle yourself. I can offer no other solution than this 🤣

But my point is there are many methods out there. Some may be more effective and some less, and I have no diagram to say which is which. We've all seen videos of really unrealistic stuff working in fights. Does this prove that that method or system is effective? Well... no. Can it be? Under certain circumstances, yes. Laboratories can replicate predictable results. When out in the open it brings in a vast array of confounding variables which are now a big part of the results.

By all means apply critical thinking. All I'm saying is I don't feel it's as clear cut as this. Otherwise it's only the arts that you can apply your particular standards to that are deemed the only effective ones.


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## jergar (May 26, 2022)

Old Kenpo Warrior said:


> Hello Kenpo folk
> I began my Kenpo journey in 1968, studying with Larry Robbins to green belt, and moved on to John Stevenson where I received my 3rd Black Belt. For a brief period, I was under the roof of Rod Martain in Mountain View California. I've used Kenpo in real street-fighting situations on numerous occasions. I still have a white scar, about an 8th of an inch long where I got nicked when I faced a knife-wielding attacker in Golden Gate Park. I got a nick he got a broken arm. My point with this story is that I'm hearing a great deal these days that Kenp doesn't work on the street. Enough! It works. I'm 70 years old and practice my Kenpo techniques every day. I retired from teaching four years ago. These days I limit my kicks to below the waist. I work speed drills and the power cell of every technique.
> Just wondering if there are any other old Kenpo Warriors still active.


Hi Old Kenpo Warrior,  hey  i'm 67 and have been practicing Kung Fu San Soo for 35 of those years and I get the same thing from persons who don't know what they are talking about. That won't work on the street etc. etc. I too have used my art on the street on various thugs and all I can say is that it works for ME. I'm still training with the same instructor at Kung Fu San Soo, Riverside ca. As far as proving it ,I'm old school like you a man's word still means something to me. Kenpo is a fine art I have worked with one person who is our age that trained with Larry Parker, his techniques are good and blends pretty well with SanSoo so it's all good in my opinion . Peace!


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> I think it's not about infallibility in method/result, but more in increasing likelihoods and expertise in situations similar.
> 
> There is a severe issue in any black and white lens of "this system works, look at my version of proof". Absolute statements especially when it comes to unpredictable nature of violent encounters can be just as dangerous as saying "oh this happened once, so I'm invincible".
> 
> ...



What proof should I have considered in this case?


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> I think it's not about infallibility in method/result, but more in increasing likelihoods and expertise in situations similar.
> 
> There is a severe issue in any black and white lens of "this system works, look at my version of proof". Absolute statements especially when it comes to unpredictable nature of violent encounters can be just as dangerous as saying "oh this happened once, so I'm invincible".
> 
> ...



Bear in mind this is what you are advocating.






						Creating a very light weight, collapsible baton - feedback needed
					

What reasons?   Fiddly, fragile (one of my FMA teachers actually did a test with a number of common folders, wearing mail hand protection, and found that quite a number of them collapsed or came unlocked and folded on the hand when thrusting, and even among trainers that I've owned, I've found...



					www.martialtalk.com
				




Without the burden of proof anyone can literally say anything. 

Which then becomes this fantasy role play.


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## _Simon_ (May 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> What proof should I have considered in this case?


Well, none really! It can be as simple as ah that's interesting how it worked for him in that circumstance, and perhaps asking specifics as to what happened. 
Of course, I'd have issue too with the statement "this style works", as it's not as clear cut. Could say what I did I can see came from my training, so my training helped in that circumstance. It "can work".

But I honestly dont know what proof you're looking for. Do you really consider multiple popular YouTube videos as proof? Or very specific ruled competition record? Even a video you could edit quite heavily, there is some crazy fancy technology nowadays!



drop bear said:


> Bear in mind this is what you are advocating.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You KNOW I am not saying or advocating that, and purposely ignoring the whole context of what I've said. That's quite a leap to make. It's like it's either your way of hardcore reductionist scientific method with definitive cause-effect and undeniable proof thereof, or it's absolute fantasy. No room for grey areas, or that it could exist on a continuum/spectrum? As life isn't a lab but much more fluid process, where learning can contribute in various ways and skills can enhance likelihoods but not guarantee. I mean, you can even look at elite sport. If I did the EXACT same training regime/system as Roger Federer, would I be guaranteed to win all those titles? No. Would it help? Of course.

Something as chaotic and unpredictable as defending yourself... some things can help, some things may not. By all means try to acquire evidence, but drawing definitive conclusion which ignores the impact other training can have doesn't make sense. If you think that means I'm advocating fantasy... well that's rather interesting.


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## drop bear (May 26, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Well, none really! It can be as simple as ah that's interesting how it worked for him in that circumstance, and perhaps asking specifics as to what happened.
> Of course, I'd have issue too with the statement "this style works", as it's not as clear cut. Could say what I did I can see came from my training, so my training helped in that circumstance. It "can work".
> 
> But I honestly dont know what proof you're looking for. Do you really consider multiple popular YouTube videos as proof? Or very specific ruled competition record? Even a video you could edit quite heavily, there is some crazy fancy technology nowadays!
> ...



Yeah. But we are also taking the extreme end of anecdotal evidence here and expecting to make a pretty big conclusion from it. 

If it wasn't such a huge leap. I possibly wouldn't be so picky about it. 

But read that thread on light weight battons. It is literally everyone just saying stuff and expecting people to believe it. 

It doesn't make the conversation any more productive. Because there is no fixed ground to work with.


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## _Simon_ (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But we are also taking the extreme end of anecdotal evidence here and expecting to make a pretty big conclusion from it.
> 
> If it wasn't such a huge leap. I possibly wouldn't be so picky about it.
> 
> ...


Read through it and agreed about that thread, all completely hypothetical and conclusions drawn from them. But the thing is you do that too



drop bear said:


> I could for example choke a guy unconscious more quickly than you could knife a guy unconscious.
> 
> It takes forever to stab a guy until he looses the ability to fight back.



(The 'could' bit suggests potential which is good, but the next bit is presumptive)

Can we really provide solid evidence as to the most effective weapon in a self defense situation? How could we even do that?

Even your statements about the umbrella not being deadly were presumptive. Seems you disagreed simply because of notion you hold that 'everyone incorrectly says that everything is deadly'. It's not really a basis to make an argument from...

The huge leap you speak of seems to be the statement being said "this works" rather than "it can work". But I think your issue with anecdotal evidence seems to be more the whole "it happened this way for me therefore it works." Fair enough. But then you're discounting anecdote completely when it surely can be of some value. I agree with not using it as sole evidence to make a leap. But agreed using anecdotes taking away the certainty of proof. Which I simply don't think exists in this particular sphere of self defense. Like I said, to me it seems more like a spectrum of what training can aid you, and that there are so many variables to it that finding some pure, absolute eternally conclusive proof/evidence is rather lofty and not realistic...

To suggest I am playing the hypothetical talk game and advocating the fantasy argument is to completely miss the gist of what I'm saying. I'm saying it's not as clinical, absolute and cause-effect as you put forth. I don't know how many times I can repeat myself here, so I'll most likely just bow out here, we'll see lol.


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## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Read through it and agreed about that thread, all completely hypothetical and conclusions drawn from them. But the thing is you do that too
> 
> 
> (The 'could' bit suggests potential which is good, but the next bit is presumptive)
> ...



You are correct.

Without some sort of structure. We do not have a platform to determine what is real and what isn't.

Now. If fighting is chaotic and there is no laboratory test. That's it. We are done. We have no way of knowing and everything is as good as everything else.

Now this makes all martial arts equally viable. But it also makes everything equally viable.

And we wind up with this.


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## _Simon_ (May 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You are correct.
> 
> Without some sort of structure. We do not have a platform to determine what is real and what isn't.
> 
> ...


Agreed about a platform/structure etc.

But any good structural basis will take into account the element of variability and unpredictability. This does NOT suggest I'm saying "oh everything's good, it all works", but I'm merely suggesting it isn't as concrete a process as to the outcome of training. Increasing ability, skill, psychological basis is a continuum of sorts and could potentially be generalised across a vast array of situations (in terms of its ability to be functional). Different systems/MAs will emphasise different aspects and focus. Some aspects to the exclusion of others.

But not only the unpredictability aspect, what you train in some or even many MA simply can work. Likelihoods are what fluctuates and are influenced.

Hence, to bring it riiiight back, the OP's Kenpo training helped him immensely. I'll stick with that. Yes it's a leap to therefore conclude "Kenpo works", as I wouldn't even know what that means to be honest. It's the same as saying "punches work". Well... sort of. But not really guaranteed huh? Developing a strong punch, good alignment, accuracy, power, whatever, increased the likelihood of it working. But if the target you launched at changed angle slightly, you may break your hand, lose this imaginary fight. Do punches work?


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## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Agreed about a platform/structure etc.
> 
> But any good structural basis will take into account the element of variability and unpredictability. This does NOT suggest I'm saying "oh everything's good, it all works", but I'm merely suggesting it isn't as concrete a process as to the outcome of training. Increasing ability, skill, psychological basis is a continuum of sorts and could potentially be generalised across a vast array of situations (in terms of its ability to be functional). Different systems/MAs will emphasise different aspects and focus. Some aspects to the exclusion of others.
> 
> ...



Yeah. But we are discussing a claim with no background and no context from a guy we know nothing about that happened once?

Then for some reason the person who makes that claim seems to be surprised The response is "cool story bro". Not just by me apparently either. It seems to be a general response he has had issues with.

I don't think the argument that it isn't as concrete as you might think applies here. Because of the incredibly vague nature of the claim.

Now I suggested how to make a better case for something works. Which in this instance would be almost anything.

But apparently making a good case (or any case in this instance) for something working isn't seen as a thing martial artist do.

And this is the most concerning aspect of this discussion.


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## jergar (May 27, 2022)

jergar said:


> Hi Old Kenpo Warrior,  hey  i'm 67 and have been practicing Kung Fu San Soo for 35 of those years and I get the same thing from persons who don't know what they are talking about. That won't work on the street etc. etc. I too have used my art on the street on various thugs and all I can say is that it works for ME. I'm still training with the same instructor at Kung Fu San Soo, Riverside ca. As far as proving it ,I'm old school like you a man's word still means something to me. Kenpo is a fine art I have worked with one person who is our age that trained with Larry Parker, his techniques are good and blends pretty well with SanSoo so it's all good in my opinion . Peace!


Correction Ed Parker !


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 27, 2022)

Will it be better to say that my punch/kick/throw work instead?

You train MA to develop some door guarding skill. Which MA system that you train is not important.

Does your

- puncg can knock your opponent down?
- kick can knock your opponent down?
- throw can take your opponent down?

Do you have effective tools in your toolbox to finish a fight?


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## drop bear (May 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Will it be better to say that my punch/kick/throw work instead?
> 
> You train MA to develop some door guarding skill. Which MA system that you train is not important.
> 
> ...



And to put in context. Mike tyson recently bashed a dude sort of on the street. So works. But that dude didn't put up much of a fight.


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