# Pulling a knife



## brothershaw (Jul 19, 2004)

This may have come up before but anway:ALso posted under knife arts
    Alot of people like to carry knives for protection and I see alot of people post about what knife they like to carry. 
Question what is the line for you to pull your knife out;assuming you are not protecting family.
Do you wait for a committed attack? Do you still pull it if the attacker or attackers  have no weapon ( and suppose you are a competent empty hand fighter).  I am not interested in the legal issues, just what is your personal line in the sand.  Its one thing if a person pulls a knife on you, but what if they dont but you have a knife? Are you afraid in a struggle they might find  yours and you should pull it first?
        Once again not interested in the legal aspects, just the question of you have a knife on you when does it come out of the sheath?


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## Cruentus (Jul 19, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> This may have come up before but anway:ALso posted under knife arts
> Alot of people like to carry knives for protection and I see alot of people post about what knife they like to carry.
> Question what is the line for you to pull your knife out;assuming you are not protecting family.
> Do you wait for a committed attack? Do you still pull it if the attacker or attackers  have no weapon ( and suppose you are a competent empty hand fighter).  I am not interested in the legal issues, just what is your personal line in the sand.  Its one thing if a person pulls a knife on you, but what if they dont but you have a knife? Are you afraid in a struggle they might find  yours and you should pull it first?
> Once again not interested in the legal aspects, just the question of you have a knife on you when does it come out of the sheath?



View you knife like a gun, but worse. It is like a gun because all the same criteria generally applies to the knife. It is worse because people view the blade as a thugs weapon of choice, and the blade leaves much more visually disturbing wounds then a gun, making the emotional outlook regarding you by a jury not favorable at all.

#1. lethal force has to be justified to pull a knife.

Definitions of such may vary, but a good rule of thumb is the Ability, Opportunity and Intent concept. You have to be able to prove that the attacker has the ability to kill or cause great bodily harm on you, the opportunity to do so, and that they have demonstrated intent to do so.

#2. After you pull the knife, even though lethal force is justified, your wounds have to demonstrate that your intent was self defense rather then offensive.

Definition of the law and application of the law are 2 different things. Even if you can legally justify lethal force, if you are on trial for murder, or attempted murder, your intent comes into question. If the wounds you create demonstrate offensive behavior rather then defensive behavior (trying to escape, get to safety, etc.) then your intent comes into question. If you use a blade that exceeds the legal limits, or that looks like a nasty fighting tool rather then a utility tool, then your intent comes into question. That question is, were you intending on killing or maiming anyone that gives you the excuse, or are you intent on simply defending yourself if needed? This question could make or break what a Jury has to say.

You say that your not interested in legal aspects, but I say that if your going to carry, then you'd better be, at least on a laymans level. A self defense that lands you in jail or murder or attempted murder is not good self defense in my opinion! So, I'd learn your state restrictions, and work within those limits. And, I would stick to the "ability, opportunity, intent" rule. And, I wouldn't do anything that would jeprodize the provability that you only intend to defend yourself, and not something else.


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## Tgace (Jul 19, 2004)

One "problem" with a knife for defense is that you have to "close with and destroy" with a knife. Its "offensive" in nature and is tougher to defend in court. "I was in fear for my life and I pulled my gun, firing while trying to back away" plays better than "I was in fear for my life so I pulled my knife and stabbed him 30-50 times untill he fell."


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## bart (Jul 19, 2004)

Hey There,

Well, legalities aside, my knife is to be used only when my life is on the line and the tide has turned against me or there is an immediate and credible deadly threat to a loved one. Two examples:

Number 1: I'm being choked and he's got a good grip on me. I can't get out of it, but I can get in my pocket and pull out the knife and cut him before I black out or get asphixiated. This situation is one I can't get out of the without he or me dying. I pull the knife.

Number 2: My kid is being assaulted by a thug with a baseball bat. If I don't stop the thug, my kid will die immediately. I pull the knife. 

These types of situations most likely are not going to occur. But the knife is there for instances such as those should the circumstances arise. It's not my first line of defense, diplomacy is. It's not my second line either, my bare hands are. But if it's do or die right away, then the blade would come out.


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## brothershaw (Jul 19, 2004)

See thats more in line with what I am asking, when I do carry a knife its because of work. When I say I am not interested in the legal questions thats because it muddies the water. 

Again alot of people train knives and carry knives but whats the line in the sand? 
Bart according to your post its a last resort, ( thats an honest answer)
I probably wouldnt pull it if it wasnt a last resort either. And honestly if i had to use a knife on someone the legal questions would be the last thing on my mind (for that moment). To me it seems like a very tough call, and I am just curious to hear from the many people who buy and carry all these knives whats their boiling point.


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## bart (Jul 20, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> See thats more in line with what I am asking, when I do carry a knife its because of work...




Thanks. It's hard to not think about legality. But you're right, there are a lot of folders on the bus when you look around. I always wonder if they people who carry them know how to use them, or rather, what they're getting into by carrying one. To be truthful, I carry a knife out of habit. I used to carry a combat folder but now I'm back to the swiss army knife. The blade is just as long and I think it may actually be better quality. On a trip back to the Philippines my uncle saw my folder and thought it was pretty neat. He obviously wanted it so I gave it to him. The swiss army knife is more practical anyway. I use it more for opening boxes, bottles, and cutting stray threads off my tie than for anything else. But if I needed something it's there. I also would probably be more apt to use the sharp leather punch than the blade as it's less likely to snap closed on me.


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## arnisandyz (Jul 20, 2004)

How about pulling the knife in closed postion to be used in a non-lethal fashion (guntings, joint controls, etc)?


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## Tgace (Jul 20, 2004)

When It comes down to it, lethal force is lethal force. It could be a gun, knife, brick, flashlight, car, hand. If you need to use it, do what you have to. Just remember that lawyers can make a "jury of your peers" think just about anything.


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## John J (Jul 20, 2004)

Very well said Bart! Sometimes these type of questions can be better stated as, "what would I LIKE to do" or in this case,"when would I LIKE to". I have to agree that a "life or death" situation must arise but yet, in the heat of the altercation you may deploy sooner or even worse not deploy at all. 

Your anger, fear, reflexes, intuition, adrenalin are just a few other factors that will determine when the right time will be. Although understanding the legalities is quite important, there is a good chance you may act out of  impulse. 

Just something else to consider.

John


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