# Wheel vs. roundhouse kick



## loun

What is the difference between these 2 kicks?  When would you use one over the other?

Thanks


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## Blindside

You might want to describe what you mean by these terms, it is helpful to have a starting point for the discussion.  Describe the motion of each and the thread can go from there.

Lamont


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## John Bishop

I've heard the rear leg "roundhouse" kick refered to as a "wheel" kick by some Korean stylists, so there may not be a differance.


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## shane23ss

loun said:
			
		

> What is the difference between these 2 kicks? When would you use one over the other?
> 
> Thanks


A wheel kick could be a roundhouse kick in reverse, like a reverse spinning roundhouse. Then again, it could be a different name for the same kick, kind of like a cresent/moon kick. Maybe some one from a "kicking" system would know. I asked my Tang Soo Do buddy (who is a 1st degree BB) but he doesn't know.


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## FearlessFreep

Not sure on the wheel kick but another TKD friend of mine calls something a 'hurricane kick' and I call it a 'tornado kick' so...

Then again, look down in the TKD forum in a thread about 'spinning back kick' vs 'spinning side kick' with half the people saying they are unique kicks with various strengths and half the people saying they're just different names for the same thing.


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## KenpoDave

loun said:
			
		

> What is the difference between these 2 kicks?  When would you use one over the other?
> 
> Thanks



In my system, the wheel and the roundhouse have the same end result.  However, the wheel comes off the ground with the knee pointed forward, similar to the way Bill Wallace teaches, then pivots to the roundhouse position.  The roundhouse is the roundhouse.

The wheel tends to be more deceptive when done correctly.  The roundhouse tends to have more power.  Also, the roundhouse is not typically practiced as a front leg kick, whereas the wheel as practiced with both the front and back.


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## jfarnsworth

Personally I have never heard of a wheel kick. I do like KenpoDave's post on the difference of the 2. However I personally teach the roundhouse much the same as he had indicated the wheel kick.  :idunno:  Sounds to me like pretty much the same thing.


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## Brian Jones

Back many years ago when I was taking TKD, a wheel kick was done like a hook kick,only the knee stayed straight, no "hooking motion".  As a kickon its own it wasn't done much, but you would often se it as a "spinning wheel" kick where the leg stayed stiff, as opposed to a spinning hook kick.  I may be wrong but I think the wheel is also prevelant in hapkido.  
   All in all I agree with the previous posters, if you post your school's definitions of the wheel and roudnhouse, perhaps someone can answer your question.

Brian Jones


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## FearlessFreep

_However, the wheel comes off the ground with the knee pointed forward, similar to the way Bill Wallace teaches, then pivots to the roundhouse position._

Hmm...that sounds what I've been used to as a 'roundhouse'

At our school, basically  the snap kick (or front kick), the side kick, and the roundhouse kick all start the same; drive the toe to get the knee up pointing at the target.  From there, the snap kick snaps the foot/toe forward, the side kick pulls the thigh over and drives the foot forward, and the roundhouse turns the hip over and snaps the foot out. 


We do all three from front or back.  Back tends to be offensive (more power), front tends to be defensive (quicker to get up against an attack already launched) or as the first part of a multiple part attack.

I don't think we use a straight leg kick


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## MJS

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> Back many years ago when I was taking TKD, a wheel kick was done like a hook kick,only the knee stayed straight, no "hooking motion".  As a kickon its own it wasn't done much, but you would often se it as a "spinning wheel" kick where the leg stayed stiff, as opposed to a spinning hook kick.  I may be wrong but I think the wheel is also prevelant in hapkido.
> All in all I agree with the previous posters, if you post your school's definitions of the wheel and roudnhouse, perhaps someone can answer your question.
> 
> Brian Jones



Yes, thats the way I learned it as well.

Mike


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## KenpoDave

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Personally I have never heard of a wheel kick. I do like KenpoDave's post on the difference of the 2. However I personally teach the roundhouse much the same as he had indicated the wheel kick.  :idunno:  Sounds to me like pretty much the same thing.



Pretty much.  The kick is the same at the end, different beginning.  We used to not use the term roundhouse, and go with offensive and defensive wheel, the defensive wheel being the roundhouse, the offensive wheel being the more deceptive kick.

Some have mentioned the wheel being a straight leg hook kick.  That is how we do the hook kick.  Our hook kick is almost identical in mechanics to a ridge hand.


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## dubljay

The way I learned Wheel and roundhouse are they are two different kicks.

  Wheel:
 It begins in a linear path, like a front kick. When you bring your knee up, just before you extend your lower leg you pivot on your planted foot, turning your hips and then extend your lower leg. This will change the path from linear to circular, making it harder to defend against (in ideal terms). If you analyze the body mechanics and the path taken of a front kick a wheel kick is basically a front kick on the horizontal plane. Deceptive in nature, medium in power compared to a roundhouse.
  There are four positions of a wheel (and front kick) starting from both feet in a fighting stance
  1: Knee bent and the kicking foot up off the ground tucked back just a bit. 
  2: Extending the striking foot, for a wheel kick this also includes the pivot on the planted.
  3: This position is the same as the first, which includes the pivot back for a wheel kick. 
  4: This is where you replant your foot back into a fighting stance.

 I personally use the wheel kick most in a combination. From a left lead stance I use my right leg (back leg) and throw a front kick to the midsection or ribs, then retract back to the 3rd position from above, pivot and throw a wheel kick to the side of the head. I'm currently working on executing this combination from my lead leg.

    Roundhouse:
 A roundhouse is entirely circular in motion. The kicking foot comes up off the ground already beginning its arc path to the target. Because there is no change of path from linear to circular, the power and momentum of this kick is much greater than that of a wheel kick. The draw backs are that it is easier to anticipate and defend against.


 Either kick can be executed from either the lead or rear leg. However desired power may lead to one leg position optimal for certain also body mechanicals kicks make it easier for one kick to be executed from certain leg positions as opposed to another. You must decide which legs and kicks work for your own body mechanics.

 I wish there was a way for me to illustrate the body positions to make myself as clear as possible.

   -Josh-


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## KenpoDave

dubljay said:
			
		

> The way I learned Wheel and roundhouse are they are two different kicks.
> 
> I wish there was a way for me to illustrate the body positions to make myself as clear as possible.
> 
> -Josh-



Josh, your illustration is exactly the way I was taught the kicks.


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## dubljay

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Josh, your illustration is exactly the way I was taught the kicks.


 I am just glad you could understand what I said, by the time I finished writing and editing that post I couldn't make sense of what I had written.


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## The Kai

When I first started in tracy's kenpo the Wheel kick was a Roundhouse Kick.

Todd


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## TigerWoman

I find terminology across arts pretty mixed up.  In TKD, a wheel kick is commonly known as a spin heel to head level but the leg is brought up straight and around and not hooked-snapped to target.  Like a hook with no hook but with a spin in other words.

Then the roundhouse kick is completely different.  We snap round kicks so there is no slow bringing up straight and around, if that's what you call a wheel kick.  We bring the knee up, point in the direction of the kick and extend the lower leg for the snap. The snap round kick is non-telegraphing and faster IMO. TW


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> I find terminology across arts pretty mixed up. In TKD, a wheel kick is commonly known as a spin heel to head level but the leg is brought up straight and around and not hooked-snapped to target. Like a hook with no hook but with a spin in other words.
> 
> Then the roundhouse kick is completely different. We snap round kicks so there is no slow bringing up straight and around, if that's what you call a wheel kick. We bring the knee up, point in the direction of the kick and extend the lower leg for the snap. The snap round kick is non-telegraphing and faster IMO. TW


You do realize this is a Kenpo/Kempo forum, not a TKD forum so of course you're going to have your own terminolgy for your art.   Tracy Kenpo has differences to EPAK, terminolgy and technique names and actions are the big ones, but the kicks are very similar,so the original question was asked in the right place.   I never read or post on the TKD board because I have no vested interest in it whatsoever, same goes with the rest of the arts.


DarK LorD


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## TigerWoman

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> You do realize this is a Kenpo/Kempo forum, not a TKD forum so of course you're going to have your own terminolgy for your art.   Tracy Kenpo has differences to EPAK, terminolgy and technique names and actions are the big ones, but the kicks are very similar,so the original question was asked in the right place.   I never read or post on the TKD board because I have no vested interest in it whatsoever, same goes with the rest of the arts.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD



Of course I realize...Kenpo people post all the time in the TKD forum and you are welcome too.  Basically kicks are the same, but done differently within different styles of TKD too.  The question should be what is the best way to execute the kick?  TW


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## ShhDragon@sprynet.com

In my KF style, upon which Kenpo is based (in part) a wheel kick is simply a roundhouse kick which is not retracted along a the same (or similar) route on which it traveled to reach its target. To be more specific, a roundhouse returns the kicker to an orientation which faces the opponent assuming this is where the kicker faced when launching the kick. A wheel kick, however goes through the target turning the kicker relative to the kickee. Think of a haymaker punch which doesn't retract and instead misses, thereby exposing the side/back of the puncher. Anyway, this leads to it's name. Wheel, of course refers to the person 'wheeling' around or at least spinning. While they may not spin 360 they certainly have exhibited a spin-like tendency with this kick, and of course many MA practitioners would use this extension/turn to simply begin a full spin around and re-face their enemy.


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## loun

This was my first post on this forum, I was very surprised to see the amount of responses this seemingly simple question generated.  Thank you for all of the replies.  

I spoke with the head instructor last night and asked him the question. He said the roundhouse kick comes from the rear leg and the wheel kick from the front leg.  Depending on the proximity and the relatice position of the target either one can be executed low, parallel to the groung (midrange) or rising.


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## Brian Jones

Ok so back to your original question, when would you use one over the other. Again it all depends.  A lot depends on opportunity and target availablity. Your opponent may be open for one and not the other.  Its a bit of an overgeneralization, but the wheel kick (in your terminology) is faster and has less of an opportunity to be telegraphed.  The roundhouse may be slower since it travels a greater distance, but may be more powerful.
  Now as I said that's over generalized.  I've been hit with some wheel kicks that hit like a sledgehammer, and have seen some fast roundhouse kicks. When you get rigth down to it there isn't a tiem when one is always used over the other. A god rule of thumb is proper weapon to proper target I hope that helps. 

Brian Jones


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## Hand Sword

Over the years, I've heard what is referred to as the roundhouse kick, also be called a wheel kick, and also a hook kick (because it travels the way a hook punch does). In terms of application of the kick, the chambering of the leg, the path of travel etc.., I've seen that apply to all of the terms used to describe the kick. So, I guess I would have to go with these are the same kicks, just different terminology, from different people.


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## dubljay

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Over the years, I've heard what is referred to as the roundhouse kick, also be called a wheel kick, and also a hook kick (because it travels the way a hook punch does). In terms of application of the kick, the chambering of the leg, the path of travel etc.., I've seen that apply to all of the terms used to describe the kick. So, I guess I would have to go with these are the same kicks, just different terminology, from different people.


 Not to get off topic, however I have a question of terminology

I was under the impression that in Kenpo (EPAK) terminology, there is a specific meaning to "hook" and "roundhouse" definition of strikes.

 A strike is defined as a hooking strike when the strike takes place after the weapon has reached the apex of the circle. Where as a roundhouse is defined when the weapon strikes before it reaches the apex of the circle.

  So my question is how could a wheel kick be described as a hook kick?

   Sorry to get off topic but I am just curious.

   -Josh-


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## Hand Sword

You are correct in your EPAK explanations of the definitions of hook and roundhouse. I've heard GM Parker give the explanations you've provided in your post. In the round kick being called a hook kick, it comes from, (at least in my training experiences) mostly JKD practitioners that I was in contact with, as well as books by different authors on that art. Again, as I said the terminology depends on the system, and the practioners of those systems. For example, in our kempo community I've heard the EPAK people refer to a strike as a backknuckle, where in my SKK system it is called a backfist, with the backknuckle being a front punch up side down, traveling that way from the hip to the target.


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## dubljay

Thank you for that explanation handsword.  I didn't mean to come off sounding like I was attacking the terminology of a particular system, I was just curious and posed a question.  Sorry if I came off offensive.


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## Hand Sword

No problem, we are all brothers and sisters here! If my post seemed reprimanding, I apologize, that wasn't my intention I was just trying to help out a fellow M.A.. Much respect to you, and be safe!


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## kenpo tiger

loun said:
			
		

> <snip> I spoke with the head instructor last night and asked him the question. He said the roundhouse kick comes from the rear leg and the wheel kick from the front leg. Depending on the proximity and the relatice position of the target either one can be executed low, parallel to the groung (midrange) or rising.


That's exactly the way I learned it -- both in TKD and now in Kenpo, although as was pointed out by Tigerwoman upthread, the terminology differs from art to art.

And Handsword, thanks for pointing out the difference between backknuckle and backfist -- that further illustrates the point of differing terminology.  Also points out the similarities in what we all do, no matter what our art.


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## FearlessFreep

_That's exactly the way I learned it -- both in TKD and now in Kenpo, although as was pointed out by Tigerwoman upthread, the terminology differs from art to art._

Ironically, I asked my instructor about this tonight and he said the problem was that Kenpo and TKD come from much different backgrounds and thus have different meanings for the same words


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## pete

this is why before going to italy, you learn a bit of their language before going to the restaurant to order dinner...


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## kenpo tiger

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _That's exactly the way I learned it -- both in TKD and now in Kenpo, although as was pointed out by Tigerwoman upthread, the terminology differs from art to art._
> 
> Ironically, I asked my instructor about this tonight and he said the problem was that Kenpo and TKD come from much different backgrounds and thus have different meanings for the same words


You'll also find within tkd that there are many different associations for much the same reason -- no one could agree on anything.

Confusing as it may be, it is probably best if you ask someone from the same type of art for direction -- and the same association within that art.  That way you should get the answer appropriate to your situation.


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## Kenpodoc

pete said:
			
		

> this is why before going to italy, you learn a bit of their language before going to the restaurant to order dinner...


But of course it's worse when you go to England and think your speaking the same language.

Jeff :asian:


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## Jonah

_Sup Bro, u__s brits speek jus good merikin as y'all_


Sorry - just could not help myself

Respectfully,

Jonah


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## Kenpobuff

I learned the two kicks just as Loun's post, #20, describes.  In my TKD days it was just a roundhouse by both front and rear. :erg:


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## Ray

My instructor used to refer to a "double wheel" kick as being ball kick (front kick) to the groin followed by a roundhouse (by the same leg without putting the leg down in-between kicks).  I've heard that same combination kick referred to as a "flip kick."  I had often wondered what a "wheel" kick was...I think this thread has cleared it up for me.


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## Kenpobuff

Ray
I haven't heard anyone else refer to the flip kick yet.  Glad to hear a version is still taught.
Our "flip kick" is a lower target wheel kick.  For us you don't raise you knee as high or pivot your support leg.  It is designed to be a nontelgraphing, quick distraction kick that targets the leg/knee area.


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## zDom

Brian Jones said:
			
		

> Back many years ago when I was taking TKD, a wheel kick was done like a hook kick,only the knee stayed straight, no "hooking motion".  As a kickon its own it wasn't done much, but you would often se it as a "spinning wheel" kick where the leg stayed stiff, as opposed to a spinning hook kick.  I may be wrong but I think the wheel is also prevelant in hapkido.
> All in all I agree with the previous posters, if you post your school's definitions of the wheel and roudnhouse, perhaps someone can answer your question.



Being as this is a Kenpo/Kempo forum, I think he must mean the roundhouse variation as described in this thread.

In Korean martial arts, as far as I know, it is exactly as Mr. Jones describes in the quote above - straight, stiff leg, swung from the hip, hitting with the backside of the heel.

Usually the front leg version is called a "front heel kick" and the back leg version is called a "spinning heel kick." I have heard the back leg version called a wheel kick.

The TKD guys in this area typically just train the back leg, spinning version. 

We train the front heel kick a lot in hapkido and, for me, it is fairly easy to score with during free sparring.

Usually I set it up by scoring with some crescent kicks. When they start to try to lean out of range of the crescents, I roll the hip over and drop the body to make a front heel kick.

In KMA, a roundhouse that comes up at a 45-degree angle to hit the target is called an "arc kick," while those that come in parallel to the ground are "roundhouse kicks," whether with a front or rear leg.

And, in KMA, there IS a difference between a spinning side kick and a spinning back kick - just like a side kick and back kick are different.

(Side kick: side of upper torso faces target. Back kick: back of torso is facing target)

Again, you are probably looking for the Kenpo/Kempo definitions, but thought you might find this information interesting.


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## KenpoSterre

> What is the difference between these 2 kicks?  When would you use one over the other?



a wheel kick is bringing up your lead leg turning your hips so your leg is sideways and horizontal to the ground, then you kick and but your leg down.

a roundhouse kick is when you lift your rear leg bring it to the front and then exucute a wheel kick. (you land in your original position.)

a wheel kick is good if your faced off left to left or right to right while a roundhouse kick is good if your faced off left to right or right to left.


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## Sigung86

KenpoSterre said:
			
		

> a wheel kick is bringing up your lead leg turning your hips so your leg is sideways and horizontal to the ground, then you kick and but your leg down.
> 
> a roundhouse kick is when you lift your rear leg bring it to the front and then exucute a wheel kick. (you land in your original position.)
> 
> a wheel kick is good if your faced off left to left or right to right while a roundhouse kick is good if your faced off left to right or right to left.


 
Hi KenpoSterre,

You must be training under an old Tracy instructor! :rofl:

When I was coming up in the very early 70s under my instructor in San Antonio, he was Tracy, but from the Connor side of things.  We called it simply a wheel kick and defined it just as you do.  Actually, I didn't start calling a roundhouse kick, a roundhouse kick, until not too many years ago.  Then it was simply to keep up with the times and the student's understanding.

But ... Not everyone sees it the way you and I do. :ultracool


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## Sigung86

As an after thought, and while we're talking ancient terminology...

Anybody?  What is a Hinge Kick?  artyon:


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## KenpoSterre

i really have no idea.



Sigung86 said:


> Hi KenpoSterre,
> 
> You must be training under an old Tracy instructor! :rofl:
> 
> When I was coming up in the very early 70s under my instructor in San Antonio, he was Tracy, but from the Connor side of things.  We called it simply a wheel kick and defined it just as you do.  Actually, I didn't start calling a roundhouse kick, a roundhouse kick, until not too many years ago.  Then it was simply to keep up with the times and the student's understanding.
> 
> But ... Not everyone sees it the way you and I do. :ultracool



Actually I am training under mr. Jim Mitchell. Why did you mention the Tracy system?

My best guess it that a hinge kick is a kick andd your leg spaps back kicking yourself almost in the butt...I really have no idea.


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## IWishToLearn

I trained for about 6 months under a very eclectic offshoot from the Tracy camp. (Tracy - McLeod - Castaneda - Fallon lineage.) 

A Roundhouse was a snapping type of kick, either back leg or front leg.

A Wheel kick was a rounded movement which I can most easily describe as a straight legged roundhouse. The Hapkido spinning heel kick with the leg held straight, not snapping, would be the closest analog; excepting of course that kick is done with the heel, and the wheel done from the front side of the leg with the top of the foot.

Interestingly, for a kenpo offshoot, we were always taught to use the slapping parts of the foot - not the heel or ball of the foot for penetration. Might be one of the reasons I only spent 6 months there. =/


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## Blindside

KenpoSterre said:


> Actually I am training under mr. Jim Mitchell. Why did you mention the Tracy system?


 
He mentioned it because of your terminology, but you might want to take a look who Mr. Mitchell's original instructors were.

Lamont


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## rcsparacino

Many years ago when I studied Tang Soo Do, we had been taught a wheel kick and a back spinning wheel kick. The back spinning wheel kick is similiar to a back spinning side kick, except the leg remains straight and and moves in a circle through the back spin, typically making contact with the heal- A potent kick. a "normal; Wheel kicj was taught similar to a hook kick, exept with keeping the leg straight through the technique.

Rich


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## donald

From what I have been taught. Its 2 names, same kick...

1stJohn1:9


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## kenpotroop

I was taught that one was with the lead leg and one the rear leg.


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## Doc

Blindside said:


> He mentioned it because of your terminology, but you might want to take a look who Mr. Mitchell's original instructors were.
> 
> Lamont



You're right. Like many others, Jim came from Tracy's.


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## jdinca

Two different kicks for us. With the roundhouse, the rear leg comes around the body to the chambered position as the standing foot pivots. With a wheel kick, the leg chambers up through the middle and is turned over as the standing foot pivots. The extension of the leg happens when the leg is parallel to the ground.


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## Wingman

Its been a while since I've heard the term 'wheel kick' but where I train the descriptions posted here for wheel kicks are our roundhouse kicks. We practice both the method of chambering the leg as though you were to throw a front kick, then rolling the hips to turn the kick into a roundhouse, and simply coming in wide with a rounded chamber. Both are useful in different ways.

If I remember right (dont quote me) the difference I learned was that a wheel kick had the same end intent as a roundhouse kick, but unlike a roundhouse kick there was no chamber for the strike, simply a whipping of the extended limb, in a method not unlike that used in crescent kicks.


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