# Mc dojo's and how to identify them. need help



## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help


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## pdg (Jun 17, 2018)

You need to identify what you want to achieve, and what you want to avoid.

One person's mcdojo could be another person's ideal...

If the higher belt holders look to be good (not flailing about and generally pathetic) then that's a good start.

If the instructors are pushing for belt gradings and/or selling 'fast track black belt club' or that sort of thing - that's not good.

The amount and duration of classes isn't necessarily any sort of indicator - some fantastic places only run a couple of classes a week, while some terrible places are open all hours...


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

Also another thing I forgot to ask is...

Is a gym without sparring sessions necessarily a bad one?

Also as a side note, thanks for the help.


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## dvcochran (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help


It sounds like this is your first experience in MA. If you have the option, do trial classes at multiple schools and find what feel best for you. Make sure you understand going in what you are obligating yourself to. I am weary of long contracts.
Are you going to be working out with a room full of kids or limited in how many classes/week you can attend? Find out the history of the school(s) you trial. If you have not other choice of schools to try, then much of it is what you make it. Keep an open mind and let you common sense guide you. If it looks, smells, and feels bad, it probably is. A big flag for me is the "Black Belt Program". Everyone learns at a difference pace therefore there is nothing wrong with advancing at a different pace. You may not be ready for black belt in XXX months/years. That is OK.


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## pdg (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Is a gym without sparring sessions necessarily a bad one?



Maybe, maybe not - again it depends what you want.

A boxercise class won't spar, so you won't learn "fighting" - but they're sold as exercise and are good for that...

If the school is selling TKD they really should spar. Lacking dedicated and scheduled sparring sessions isn't necessarily bad, if they (say) randomly announce that "tonight is sparring" in normal classes.

My school has scheduled sparring, but it's the accepted thing that sparring gear goes to every class because it'll just get announced randomly too.


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

Thanks a lot for the help, this is indeed my first experience with any sort of MA, I'm just looking for a fun and challenging discipline and it seems like I found it...

I just needed some help clarifying the mcdojo issue, thanks for the help once again.


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## pdg (Jun 17, 2018)

If it's fun and challenging (without bleeding you dry financially) then honestly I wouldn't worry about the mcdojo label.

If you can walk away at any point (i.e. not in contracts etc.) then you can always change if stops feeling right for you.


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## JR 137 (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help


Do you think it could be a McDojo?  If so, why?

What are you trying to get out of your training?

If your needs are being met through training there, what difference does it make what we or anyone else consider it to be?  It’s your time and money, not ours.  You’re the one who’s got to be happy with it, not us.


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

Well the reason why my suspicions started is because of a red-black belt student walking up to me and saying that I could get a black belt in 2 years.


And at that time I did not know what a mcdojo was until now, and as I was watching a YouTube video about mcdojos I remembered what that student said.


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Do you think it could be a McDojo?  If so, why?
> 
> What are you trying to get out of your training?
> 
> If your needs are being met through training there, what difference does it make what we or anyone else consider it to be?  It’s your time and money, not ours.  You’re the one who’s got to be happy with it, not us.




I'm just kinda afraid of being fooled into a scam and learn something that would be easy mode, if that sounds logical, but you guys are right its up to me ,I was kinda lost but now I know what to do...


As for what I'm trying to get out of my training, I'm here to have some fun while overcoming an actual challenge.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Well the reason why my suspicions started is because of a red-black belt student walking up to me and saying that I could get a black belt in 2 years.
> 
> 
> And at that time I did not know what a mcdojo was until now, and as I was watching a YouTube video about mcdojos I remembered what that student said.




You are worrying about things that don't need to be worried about.  If things start smelling like BS then leave, if the business practices seem unethical leave.  If you are having fun and learning something stay.

This whole McDojo witch hunt idea has done more to hurt the martial arts as a whole then anything.

So much of it is like saying baseball is a McSport because it has no contact.

Do what you like and have fun.  Jut keep a critical mind and ask questions, if they start spouting BS go somewhere else.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 17, 2018)

My one question for you is: are you in a contract? Thats not necessarily bad, but negates a lot of the "if it starts being fishy leave" advice


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

Andrew Green said:


> You are worrying about things that don't need to be worried about.  If things start smelling like BS then leave, if the business practices seem unethical leave.  If you are having fun and learning something stay.
> 
> This whole McDojo witch hunt idea has done more to hurt the martial arts as a whole then anything.
> 
> ...







I agree, paranoia overtook me there for a minute.


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## pdg (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Well the reason why my suspicions started is because of a red-black belt student walking up to me and saying that I could get a black belt in 2 years.



For some places 2 years really isn't 'fast'.

Maybe he didn't know what he was talking about - maybe he did and recognised a natural aptitude.

A red/black (I assume first kup, one away from black?) isn't really qualified to judge BB potential though, so saying anything about is wasn't their place...

Consider that a 1at dan black belt is officially termed 'novice' - it's far from the end of the journey.


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> My one question for you is: are you in a contract? Thats not necessarily bad, but negates a lot of the "if it starts being fishy leave" advice




Thank god I'm not, and if it was I would not even join.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Thank god I'm not, and if it was I would not even join.


Like i said, a contract isn't always a bad thing- i signed a 2 year contract and paid it all up front... but that was after training for 17(?) years and at that particular place for like 13 years when i was a kid...so i knew that i could commit to both the style and the school.
It also doesnt necessarily mean that youre stuck...when we were youngery nrother quit and he had something like 6 months left in his contract, that he had already paid for. The dojo owner wasnt going to refund it, but did give us 3 options:he could bank that in case he wants to come back, we could extend my time for the 6 months, or one of my parents could try out the fitness kickboxing for 6 months. My dad did the kickboxing option. 

Basically, contract doesnt automatically mean mcdojo or evil, as some would lead you to believe.


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## veritasAequitas (Jun 17, 2018)

Be aware of flashy marketing, anything that has a gimmick, secret techniques and always always read your contract.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 17, 2018)

pdg said:


> You need to identify what you want to achieve, and what you want to avoid.


I'm with you on this one.  If the OP is looking for a school with a bunch of staff twirling then the practical martial arts school isn't the right school to be in.   In a way the practical school becomes the "McDojo" if they advertise that they to extreme martial arts when they actually don't.

It's just better to identify what you want and then find a place that gives it.    If this "*As for what I'm trying to get out of my training, I'm here to have some fun while overcoming an actual challenge*." all that a student wants then any school will do.  Fun and overcoming an actual challenge is not exclusive to Martial Arts.  There are tons of things that would fit this.  In terms of Martial Arts, I think all schools do this, including the Mcdojos.


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## marques (Jun 17, 2018)

Is the skill of the advanced students what you are looking for yourself? Usually we can answer it even not having a trained eye.

Are they talking about belts and gradings (and fees) every day? (Yes is a bad sign for me.)

Sparring is often a signal of honest training. But sometimes synonymous of dangerous training as well. In many styles you may not be allowed to spar at the beginning, but usually there a moment, and strict rules, for that at some point.


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## Taekwondo Practicioner (Jun 17, 2018)

marques said:


> Is the skill of the advanced students what you are looking for yourself? Usually we can answer it even not having a trained eye.
> 
> Are they talking about belts and gradings (and fees) every day? (Yes is a bad sign for me.)
> 
> Sparring is often a signal of honest training. But sometimes synonymous of dangerous training as well. In many styles you may not be allowed to spar at the beginning, but usually there a moment, and strict rules, for that at some point.





Yeah they do push for belt and gradings.

But the other student told me that he has been doing taekwondo since he was 14 and he is still a red belt, and the only black belts are on their 20's....

Majority of the the younger people under the age of 20 are red-black, I don't know if this is useful info.


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## Headhunter (Jun 17, 2018)

Who cares if it is or isn't. If your enjoying it then really who cares? You may enjoy training at a mcdojo more than a legit school


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Also another thing I forgot to ask is...
> 
> Is a gym without sparring sessions necessarily a bad one?
> 
> Also as a side note, thanks for the help.


That depends what your objective is. If you're training for competition, sparring (simulating that competition) is a necessity. If you're training for self-defense, I consider it a necessity, though I've seen some schools manage to produce some (inconsistently) good fighters without regular sparring. If you're training because you want something to master, enjoy the challenge, and keep your body moving, sparring is only necessary if you really want it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Thanks a lot for the help, this is indeed my first experience with any sort of MA, I'm just looking for a fun and challenging discipline and it seems like I found it...
> 
> I just needed some help clarifying the mcdojo issue, thanks for the help once again.


I'll reiterate what others have said. "McDojo" is a fluid term. What one person thinks is reprehensible may actually serve the needs of another person. If you are getting what you want from your training, and are not deceived about your actual ability in some context, then the school is good...for your needs.

I do think there are approaches most folks would agree don't seem to favor students in any context. Guaranteed time to black belt (or any rank) obscures the fact that people learn at different rates, and some folks will put forth more effort than others (which may or may not lead to them learning faster). It shouldn't cost more to get the necessary training for a rank, unless it's _*additional*_ training (so, if a "black belt prep class" is an additional class, it's reasonable that you should pay more for that additional class).

Someone already mentioned watching the higher ranks. I'll add that you should also look at the middle ranks (you'll have to ask when you're there what their ranking is). IMO, you should be able to see a real difference between beginners and middle ranks. Anyone with some martial arts experience should also be able to see a marked difference between the intermediates and advanced, though it's not always something an inexperienced person can perceive.

Consider taking someone with you who understands your objectives, knows a bit about martial arts, and has an open mind (doesn't always talk about how some arts are trash, especially when "some arts" means everything except what they do). I've actually visited schools with folks, and even in advance of them, to give my input for them when they were looking into a school in an area where I was going to be. I know other martial artists who have done the same.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2018)

Every school is a mcdojo and none are. Nobody thinks they are a mcdojo. I’ve heard tons of people talk about their “mcdojo competitor,” but I’ll pretty much guarantee that the competitor doesn’t believe they’re a mcdojo. I push students to get ready for testing for a couple of reasons: it’s good motivation for the majority of students and it’s good for retention.

Students stick around when they see tangible progress (I got a new belt/I’m one step closer to...). The longer I have the opportunity to work with a student, the more positive impact I can have on them. It’s also, not coincidentally, good for my bottom line. I’m motivated by growth in my students and in my business. Everybody wins. If happy students and a happy instructor causes someone to label me a mcdojo, so be it. Opinions of people outside of my school are not important. 


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## pdg (Jun 17, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> I push students to get ready for testing



That right there is probably the critical difference.

You push them _to get ready_.

If you shoved them through production line time only based grading with no concern as to whether they're ready or able, and pass them irrespective just to bank the cash, it'd be different.



Jaeimseu said:


> Opinions of people outside of my school are not important



Unless you're trying to attract new students


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## dvcochran (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Well the reason why my suspicions started is because of a red-black belt student walking up to me and saying that I could get a black belt in 2 years.
> 
> 
> And at that time I did not know what a mcdojo was until now, and as I was watching a YouTube video about mcdojos I remembered what that student said.


Well remember, if you saw it online then its got to be true. Seriously, go in with an open mind and see if it is right for you. That should not include a fee just to  trial a couple of classes. If you are an athlete look for the markers you are familiar with if that is important for what you are looking for going forward. If you are looking for something totally new a MA class should be a great idea. Best of luck and let us know how it goes.


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## dvcochran (Jun 17, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> I'm just kinda afraid of being fooled into a scam and learn something that would be easy mode, if that sounds logical, but you guys are right its up to me ,I was kinda lost but now I know what to do...
> 
> 
> As for what I'm trying to get out of my training, I'm here to have some fun while overcoming an actual challenge.


You largely answered your own question. If it is not a challenge to YOU, it is unlikely you will want to stay anyway.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 17, 2018)

pdg said:


> That right there is probably the critical difference.
> 
> You push them _to get ready_.
> 
> ...



Once they’re inside my school their opinions become important. 


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## watching (Jun 18, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Yeah they do push for belt and gradings.
> 
> But the other student told me that he has been doing taekwondo since he was 14 and he is still a red belt, and the only black belts are on their 20's....
> 
> Majority of the the younger people under the age of 20 are red-black, I don't know if this is useful info.


the school might be against giving a black belt to a minor, which is a good sign in my opinion. Just think of a few critical things that you want from your training and ask the head instructor about these things next time you go in.


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## pdg (Jun 18, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> Once they’re inside my school their opinions become important.



I kind of get what you're saying, but if everyone outside of your school thinks it's no good then eventually you'll have no students.

People naturally leave (move away, interests change, etc.) and if you can't get new people through the door...

Any business needs a reputation to grow and a good way to destroy a business is to put about that "the (potential) customer might be right or wrong, but I don't care either way".


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## mrt2 (Jun 18, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> *Well the reason why my suspicions started is because of a red-black belt student walking up to me and saying that I could get a black belt in 2 years.*
> 
> 
> And at that time I did not know what a mcdojo was until now, and as I was watching a YouTube video about mcdojos I remembered what that student said.


That alone doesn't mean anything.  What the high red belt told you might actually be true. 

 But in Tae Kwon Do, black belt is just the beginning, so don't worry that after 2 years, they will have nothing left to teach you, or that they are running a scam because they award black belts in two years.  At my school, they award a provisional black belt, then 6 months to a year later, you take another black belt test for the 1st Dan.  So to get to provisional black belt in 2 years, and black belt in 2 1/2 to 3 years puts things into perspective.  My previous style had a rank of Cho Dan Bo, which they did not call black belt, because the holder of that rank didn't wear a black belt.  But it was usually a year to black belt once you made Cho Dan Bo.  

What I am trying to say is, the black belt means different things in different styles. At my former school, there were not many black belts.  In fact, the majority of black belts were instructors.  The only person who held a rank higher than third Dan was the head instructor who was a 6th Dan master.  By contrast, at my current school  there are a lot of provisional and 1st degree black belts, while there are a small  number of second Dan (degree), but just a couple of third Dan, and one fourth Dan.  And, all of the third and fourth Dan black belts are instructors.

At my former school, the black belt seemed to be the big jump from beginner to expert.  I can't say that is true at my current school.  At this juncture, if I can avoid injury, I can see myself making black belt in two years.  It is 2nd and 3rd Dan that seems like the really hard jump.  Now, maybe I just convinced you that my current school is a McDojo, since all these colored belt tests are not free.  And to a certain extent, that is correct.  Could a martial arts school have just 3 or 4 ranks between white and black belt instead of the 9 or 10 most Korean styles have?  (White belt for 6 months, yellow belt for 6 months, green for 6 months, red or brown for a year) Probably so.  But there is something to be said for breaking the curriculum down into bite sized chunks so the true beginner isn't completely overwhelmed.  And for the student to always know a test is, at most, a couple of months away, so the need to master the new bit of curriculum has a bit of urgency.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 18, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> That alone doesn't mean anything.  What the high red belt told you might actually be true.
> 
> But in Tae Kwon Do, black belt is just the beginning, so don't worry that after 2 years, they will have nothing left to teach you, or that they are running a scam because they award black belts in two years.  At my school, they award a provisional black belt, then 6 months to a year later, you take another black belt test for the 1st Dan.  So to get to provisional black belt in 2 years, and black belt in 2 1/2 to 3 years puts things into perspective.  My previous style had a rank of Cho Dan Bo, which they did not call black belt, because the holder of that rank didn't wear a black belt.  But it was usually a year to black belt once you made Cho Dan Bo.
> 
> ...


To the OP: this is a good post on this topic. There are many different ideas of what a black belt "should" mean/be. The reality is twofold. Firstly, in the West, we have romanticized this idea, and expect a BB (the person wearing said belt) to be an expert on the order of what we've seen in movies. It's a natural reaction when we don't have other information. Now to the second part: BB (the rank) means whatever a given group assigns it to mean. It appears that (for the most part) the earliest uses of that rank (all the way back to Jigoro Kano, who started the whole belt-color ranking) was to designate people who were pretty good...not necessarily great, but good. 

Today, most systems tend to fall into one of two camps: BB as a starting point (meaning you've got the basics and are ready for some real learning) and BB as advanced practitioner (meaning you've got a quite good grasp of the principles and application). The former often takes 1.5-3 years to get, while the latter typically takes 7-10 years to get. One is not inherently better than the other. If someone told me they'd decided BB was the first rank they'd give out (after a month or two of training) then they'd get into yellow, pink, and purple, I'd suggest it's confusing to everyone else in the MA world, but so long as everyone in their school knows what those colors mean, it shouldn't cause problems within their system.

In short, how long it takes to get to BB isn't much of a measure of quality of a school or system.


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## WaterGal (Jun 18, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Well the reason why my suspicions started is because of a red-black belt student walking up to me and saying that I could get a black belt in 2 years.



That's not necessarily a red flag. "Black belt" means something different in every martial arts style, and even between different organizations within the same style. In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Federation-style TKD (the biggest TKD organization), "black belt" means that you've gotten down all the basic material, and for a teenager or adult student that works hard and attends regularly, it's pretty common for a black belt to take 2-3 years. In Korea, from what I've been told, it's usually 1-2 years for black belt.


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## WaterGal (Jun 18, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Also another thing I forgot to ask is...
> 
> Is a gym without sparring sessions necessarily a bad one?



At white belt, no. White belts, in my experience, usually know just enough TKD to kick everywhere _other _than the protective gear, lol.

As to what I think you're asking..... some schools will offer specific classes for sparring, while others will have students spar during their regular classes on some days. Some will do both. Some schools will allow or expect all students to spar, no matter how new they are, while others expect students to develop some basic skills first and don't have them do real sparring until something like yellow or green belt. 

All these approaches have merit.  I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way to do it - as long as sparring happens eventually. If students are getting to black belt without much sparring experience, *then* I think that's a problem. But if you haven't done sparring yet after *two weeks*, that's not necessarily a bad thing.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 18, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> That's not necessarily a red flag. "Black belt" means something different in every martial arts style, and even between different organizations within the same style. In Kukkiwon/World Taekwondo Federation-style TKD (the biggest TKD organization), "black belt" means that you've gotten down all the basic material, and for a teenager or adult student that works hard and attends regularly, it's pretty common for a black belt to take 2-3 years. In Korea, from what I've been told, it's usually 1-2 years for black belt.



It can be done in as little as 11 months, assuming a student can pick up required white belt material fairly quickly. 


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## Deafdude#5 (Jun 19, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> At white belt, no. White belts, in my experience, usually know just enough TKD to kick everywhere _other _than the protective gear, lol.
> 
> As to what I think you're asking..... some schools will offer specific classes for sparring, while others will have students spar during their regular classes on some days. Some will do both. Some schools will allow or expect all students to spar, no matter how new they are, while others expect students to develop some basic skills first and don't have them do real sparring until something like yellow or green belt.
> 
> All these approaches have merit.  I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way to do it - as long as sparring happens eventually. If students are getting to black belt without much sparring experience, *then* I think that's a problem. But if you haven't done sparring yet after *two weeks*, that's not necessarily a bad thing.



You mentioned in your post that you have been going for 2 weeks. At my school, sparring doesn’t start until you’ve earned your yellow belt (8th gup).
Sparring is also kept to a separate class so as to maximize time & safety. Your instructor should be able to give you the specifics for their school regarding sparring.

You’re just starting to learn the basics. Work on getting the body mechanics down pat. Sparring will come soon enough. If you’re not sure, ask your instructor.

While 2 years may not seem like a long time, it isn’t unheard of to achieve a black belt in that time frame. It all depends on how much time one puts into going to classes, practicing outside of classes & improving the physical conditioning.

Bottom line, maybe it is & maybe it isn’t a McDojo.
But it’ll depend on how much you put in to it for yourself. Learn it, keep an open mind & keep moving forward.

Good luck!


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## dvcochran (Jun 19, 2018)

Deafdude#5 said:


> You mentioned in your post that you have been going for 2 weeks. At my school, sparring doesn’t start until you’ve earned your yellow belt (8th gup).
> Sparring is also kept to a separate class so as to maximize time & safety. Your instructor should be able to give you the specifics for their school regarding sparring.
> 
> You’re just starting to learn the basics. Work on getting the body mechanics down pat. Sparring will come soon enough. If you’re not sure, ask your instructor.
> ...


I agree that getting a quality BB in 2 years is doable. But I hear of many Dojangs that dictate how many classes a person can attend per week and have a rigid testing schedule so, assuming you do not miss a testing, the time to BB test is pre-set. In a rigid class attendance scenario self practice is critical to be any where near quality.
I also see students, particularly kids, with stripes and buttons on their belt between grades. And "pre-black belt" steps after attaining 1st Gup. If they have to pay for each of these then yes, I think that is a McDojo. I do agree with a Po Dan signification for 1st Dan students under 16 years of age.


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## pdg (Jun 19, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> But I hear of many Dojangs that dictate how many classes a person can attend per week and have a rigid testing schedule



Technically I get dictated to about how many classes I can attend per week, because they're closed at other times 

And there's a fairly rigid testing schedule - once every 3 months.

But, not everyone tests every 3 months - you have to attend a certain amount of classes and demonstrate proficiency before being invited (not told) to grade. Also higher colour belts aren't eligible every 3 months either (I'm 3rd kup and half way through my 6 month minimum).

There's no extra mini rank badges or stripes either, and minimum ages for certain kup levels and 1st dan (under that age, you just don't test).


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## marques (Jun 19, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Yeah they do push for belt and gradings.
> 
> But the other student told me that he has been doing taekwondo since he was 14 and he is still a red belt, and the only black belts are on their 20's....
> 
> Majority of the the younger people under the age of 20 are red-black, I don't know if this is useful info.


I would not take any conclusion from this alone. Usually, it is a mix of factors that shows the big picture. But they these are strong ‘red flags’ for me, inflated rankings and too many gradings (fees), especially the first which they seem to fail.

There are lists of ‘indicators’ online and even in this forum. Here - Warning: 93 Signs Your Dojo is a McDojo - an extensive list, as example, that fits more some McDojo than others.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 19, 2018)

Questions like these (“is my school a McDojo”) really center around a concern about the quality of instruction and training that is being offered at the school, as well as the integrity, honesty, and accuracy of the instructors/owners in how they present their programs and what they claim their programs provide to the student.  Underneath it all, the real question is: “am I getting quality training?”

The answer is:  we do not know.

There are lots of reasons that a person might want to train.  Why one person trains and what they want to get from the training could be very different from why I train, or why the next guy trains.  And that will have a very direct effect on what school a person would choose to join, and their perception of and satisfaction with, “quality”.

I could look at a school, observe their training methods, look at their financial/fee/tuition/testing fee/hidden fee practices, interview the instructors and owners to assess their honesty and integrity and their level of self-delusion, and I can decide if I think it is a good school or a bad school or if it raises some red flags.

But my assessment would only be meaningful to someone who had exactly the same motivations and interests in training that i do.  And even then, a difference in personal experience could lead that person to different conclusions than mine.

So it becomes very difficult to give a meaningful answer, especially over a medium like an internet discussion forum, when we have not even had a chance to observe the school.  We have only the vague descriptions of someone who is very new and inexperienced, who may or may not be describing things in an accurate manner.

The best we can do is give some ideas to think about, some things that might raise red flags to us and why that is so, and the OP then needs to assess the particulars and make his own decisions about it.  It’s an educational process, trying to decide if a school is offering high quality, or not.


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## WaterGal (Jun 19, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I also see students, particularly kids, with stripes and buttons on their belt between grades. And "pre-black belt" steps after attaining 1st Gup. If they have to pay for each of these then yes, I think that is a McDojo. I do agree with a Po Dan signification for 1st Dan students under 16 years of age.



The stripes look shabby, but they can be great way to help kids track their own progress (and for us to see where they're at). We started using them a year or two ago, and it makes things so much easier.

What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.

I don't think it's unreasonable to have a "pre-test" for black belt, either, but that's up to the school and what they want to do.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 19, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help



My standard answer to this type of posts is this...

If you walk into a dojo and THIS is the teacher....





You're in a McDojos


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## pdg (Jun 19, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.



That's not an unreasonable idea, might also introduce a little extra competition which is no bad thing for motivation (especially for kids).


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## JR 137 (Jun 19, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> The stripes look shabby, but they can be great way to help kids track their own progress (and for us to see where they're at). We started using them a year or two ago, and it makes things so much easier.
> 
> What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.
> 
> I don't think it's unreasonable to have a "pre-test" for black belt, either, but that's up to the school and what they want to do.


My former organization used stripes (strips of electrical tape) to track progress, in a sense.

We had 2 separate “stripe tests.”  One was for kata, the other for a few standardized things.  We’d have a predetermined night for the stripe test.  We’d do kata as a class like we usually did, then we’d individually go in front of the class and perform our kata(s) for the current rank.  We’d then critique each other.  If you met the teacher’s standards, you got a strip of electrical tape on your belt.  Same for the second stripe, only it was different material.

The test didn’t cost anything, and it wasn’t a big production in any way.  There were people who didn’t get their stripe(s).  They were allowed to try again later on.  Once you had both stripes, you were eligible to test at the next promotional test.  If you didn’t have both stripes, you didn’t test.

It was an organized way of keeping track of who’s meeting the standards and is eligible.  If you had both stripes, you knew you were testing next time; if you didn’t, you weren’t.  Simple as that.  It was also a good quality control measure, as everyone was put front and center and had to demonstrate what they knew; no one could hide or slip through the cracks. Maybe someone could buy their own colored electrical tape and put it on themselves, but I don’t think anyone did.  I’m sure that wouldn’t go over well at all if it was found out.

Edit: stripe tests were for colored belts only.


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## dvcochran (Jun 20, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> The stripes look shabby, but they can be great way to help kids track their own progress (and for us to see where they're at). We started using them a year or two ago, and it makes things so much easier.
> 
> What we do is we have a color stripe for each major element of the curriculum. They earn each stripe by demonstrating good competence of that specific material in class (the stripe is awarded at the end of the class, and doesn't cost anything). Once they have all the stripes, they're eligible to test at the next testing date.
> 
> I don't think it's unreasonable to have a "pre-test" for black belt, either, but that's up to the school and what they want to do.


I like your approach on stripes. Are there a set number to qualify for each testing? Are they used only with kids? I always felt class was pre testing and would press potential BB testers harder during classes as a testing date became closer. It is good for other students to see the expectation in an extended manner. A "formal" pre test is a lot like cramming for an exam to me. Binge, purge, binge purge, and they never really learn the subject matter.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 20, 2018)

Speaking of McDojos


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## WaterGal (Jun 20, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I like your approach on stripes. Are there a set number to qualify for each testing? Are they used only with kids? I always felt class was pre testing and would press potential BB testers harder during classes as a testing date became closer. It is good for other students to see the expectation in an extended manner. A "formal" pre test is a lot like cramming for an exam to me. Binge, purge, binge purge, and they never really learn the subject matter.



Yeah, there's a set number, one for each of the major things they're learning at that belt (i.e., one for their form, one for sparring, etc). We use them for all the TKD students, but our TKD program is mostly kids. With the stripes, they're always pre-testing, in a sense.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 20, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, there's a set number, one for each of the major things they're learning at that belt (i.e., one for their form, one for sparring, etc). We use them for all the TKD students, but our TKD program is mostly kids. With the stripes, they're always pre-testing, in a sense.



This is a very common and useful system, especially in schools with large numbers of students or several instructors teaching on different days. It’s easy to survey the class quickly and know who knows what and who needs what. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I like your approach on stripes. Are there a set number to qualify for each testing? Are they used only with kids? I always felt class was pre testing and would press potential BB testers harder during classes as a testing date became closer. It is good for other students to see the expectation in an extended manner. A "formal" pre test is a lot like cramming for an exam to me. Binge, purge, binge purge, and they never really learn the subject matter.


Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks _needing to_ prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.


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## WaterGal (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks _needing to_ prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.



I agree when it comes to regular tests, but a black belt test is often cumulative and covers a wide range of material from many different levels. In that case, I think, you're probably going to need some specific prepping.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

WaterGal said:


> I agree when it comes to regular tests, but a black belt test is often cumulative and covers a wide range of material from many different levels. In that case, I think, you're probably going to need some specific prepping.


I really didn't except for the vocabulary (in the NGAA, there's a bunch of tested vocabulary that's never otherwise used). All the other tests I went through were also cumulative (to a slightly lesser degree), and the brown belt test is pretty much a lite version of the BB test. And all that material is covered on a regular basis - nothing is left behind (they don't have rank-forms or anything like that), which might be part of the difference.

But that's also sort of my point. If the training hasn't been covering some stuff, then why bother testing it at that point? If there's a point in testing it, then training should cover it. Mind you, that statement allows that training might adjust as someone progresses, so it matches their needs for the test. I just feel like, as an instructor, my tests should be to see if they're making progress in their training. If I'm not training it, I'm unlikely to bother testing for it. The exception would be if a given rank is an instructor certification. At that point, it's reasonable that the person should have to go back and shore up material that's not part of their regular training, because they're now testing to see if they are ready to teach others.


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## JR 137 (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I really didn't except for the vocabulary (in the NGAA, there's a bunch of tested vocabulary that's never otherwise used). All the other tests I went through were also cumulative (to a slightly lesser degree), and the brown belt test is pretty much a lite version of the BB test. And all that material is covered on a regular basis - nothing is left behind (they don't have rank-forms or anything like that), which might be part of the difference.
> 
> But that's also sort of my point. If the training hasn't been covering some stuff, then why bother testing it at that point? If there's a point in testing it, then training should cover it. Mind you, that statement allows that training might adjust as someone progresses, so it matches their needs for the test. I just feel like, as an instructor, my tests should be to see if they're making progress in their training. If I'm not training it, I'm unlikely to bother testing for it. The exception would be if a given rank is an instructor certification. At that point, it's reasonable that the person should have to go back and shore up material that's not part of their regular training, because they're now testing to see if they are ready to teach others.


You have to take the size of the dojo into consideration...

Larger dojos can have classes focused on specific aspects of the art.  Perhaps Monday and Tuesday classes are kata, Wednesday and Thursday are sparring, Friday is weapons, and Saturday is general class.  If your schedule only allows Monday and Wednesday class, you’re probably going to be missing out on some stuff.  You might occasionally do it during the classes you normally attend and/or shift your schedule to get some other class types in every once in a while, but there’s easily room for gaps in your training.

Then there’s black belts who almost solely go to black belt classes.  They may go through lower colored belt stuff occasionally, but how often?  Testing for say, 4th dan which I’ve heard is a test that everything in the syllabus is expected to be done at a very high level.  4th dan in our organization carries the title sensei, and as such a 4th dan is expected to have the technical knowledge to be able teach and promote.  Not everyone can nor should teach, but a 4th dan should easily be able to run a few classes when needed for a CI, and should be able to work with anyone on a one on one basis.

So a 4th dan has a ton of curriculum stuff they need to know inside-out.  People usually get into a routine in their own training and for whatever reasons neglect parts of the curriculum.  It’s very rare for a CI who has students at a lot of different ranks, but not that rare for someone who doesn’t teach.  I could see the student who doesn’t teach having to focus a good amount of attention on the stuff he/she hasn’t been doing for a while when the time comes to test for 4th dan.  Especially standardized stuff; we have beginner and intermediate “self defenses” (which are similar to 1 steps) and yakusoku kumite (which are pre-arranged sparring patterns).  I could easily see a 3rd dan who hasn’t done them regularly in quite some time butchering them, especially the lowest ones.  That wouldn’t be because they’re difficult, it would be because they’ve forgotten which ones are which, which foot moves where, which hand does which block, etc.  To the best of my knowledge those aren’t typically covered in black belt class.  If they haven’t been to too many general classes, they’re going to be rusty.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks _needing to_ prep specifically for a test. It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.



I think the idea of doing a fight camp style prep for a belt test would seriously bump up peoples skill.

I am basically against the idea that you would continually grade by just turning up and maintaining the same pace. When you could be using that grading as a goal setting exercise.

I think there are two ways we are looking at this. A person is deficient in class but uses the pre test system to make grade.

A person is proficient but is pushed to a higher level of work rate due to the pre test.

Basically you take all the things that are beneficial about competition and apply them to schools that don't do competition.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I really didn't except for the vocabulary (in the NGAA, there's a bunch of tested vocabulary that's never otherwise used). All the other tests I went through were also cumulative (to a slightly lesser degree), and the brown belt test is pretty much a lite version of the BB test. And all that material is covered on a regular basis - nothing is left behind (they don't have rank-forms or anything like that), which might be part of the difference.
> 
> But that's also sort of my point. If the training hasn't been covering some stuff, then why bother testing it at that point? If there's a point in testing it, then training should cover it. Mind you, that statement allows that training might adjust as someone progresses, so it matches their needs for the test. I just feel like, as an instructor, my tests should be to see if they're making progress in their training. If I'm not training it, I'm unlikely to bother testing for it. The exception would be if a given rank is an instructor certification. At that point, it's reasonable that the person should have to go back and shore up material that's not part of their regular training, because they're now testing to see if they are ready to teach others.


I still think grading ticks a lot of the same boxes as competition.

If you decided to do a BJJ competition as a training tool. You would spend the weeks leading up locking down your skills in that area.

Once that is done. You carry those skills on to your regular training.

Go back to the Aikido but your depth is a bit better.

Which is sort of the whole point of cross training.

Now same with a test. So if  your focus is to refine the elements of your game to create more depth in your martial arts then a test that is not achievable by just showing up would help achieve those advancements


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> You have to take the size of the dojo into consideration...
> 
> Larger dojos can have classes focused on specific aspects of the art.  Perhaps Monday and Tuesday classes are kata, Wednesday and Thursday are sparring, Friday is weapons, and Saturday is general class.  If your schedule only allows Monday and Wednesday class, you’re probably going to be missing out on some stuff.  You might occasionally do it during the classes you normally attend and/or shift your schedule to get some other class types in every once in a while, but there’s easily room for gaps in your training.
> 
> ...


That makes some sense. I think some of that comes down to a different approach to curriculum, too. I doubt I would ever teach a kata-focused repeating class, or any other specialized class except maybe a sparring class. If I did, attendance would be limited to folks attending regular classes, or those who've reach BB (remember, I have no ranks above that). I might work kata more one month, but then it's on to the next thing.

As for the advanced classes, the schools that I know in NGA that have BB classes do actually work the entire curriculum in those classes. Again, that difference is more due to the nature of the curriculum, though. NGA's core curriculum is 50 grappling techniques. Those are never left behind at any rank, so it's not at all uncommon to see a pair of black belts working on the first set (what's tested for first colored belt).

So, yeah, I can see that a school having specialized classes might end up with some students whose schedule leaves them mostly attending those classes. And I can see how a different style of curriculum might leave behind (that's not a negative comment, in case that's not clear) some of the earlier material that only shows up again mainly for testing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think the idea of doing a fight camp style prep for a belt test would seriously bump up peoples skill.
> 
> I am basically against the idea that you would continually grade by just turning up and maintaining the same pace. When you could be using that grading as a goal setting exercise.
> 
> ...


I can see that, and that push (and overcoming the goal) would have real value.

My view of testing is just that it's a way of checking to see if anything was missed, to make sure the student is ready for the next level of training. I can see value in using tests to push someone harder - then the test becomes a part of the training, rather than an evaluation of the training.

Here's part of where I came to my (current) view. In the school where I came through the ranks, people pushed hard to prep for their BB test (and to a lesser extent for their brown belt, too). I pushed hard for brown, and it was a good experience, but the test felt far too hard that way. So, I changed my approach. Instead, I just upped my overall training pace. By the time I got near my BB test, there wasn't really any reason to make an extra push - I'd already gotten myself to the level I needed. My training partners kept asking me when we were going to do practice tests (something that was pretty common - a chance to work on the stamina needed) and what extra exercise I was doing. I told them I wasn't planning to do any practice tests, and that I was just keeping the same exercise I'd been doing. In the end, my BB test was much easier than the brown, because I was better prepared.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I still think grading ticks a lot of the same boxes as competition.
> 
> If you decided to do a BJJ competition as a training tool. You would spend the weeks leading up locking down your skills in that area.
> 
> ...


I see your point. I guess I just started looking at it the other way around: hold off on the test until you're ready for it, rather than pushing specifically to get to it. The only equivalent I can think of for competition would be staying closer to fighting shape all the time (not really realistic at higher levels, of course).


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## dvcochran (Jun 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That makes some sense. I think some of that comes down to a different approach to curriculum, too. I doubt I would ever teach a kata-focused repeating class, or any other specialized class except maybe a sparring class. If I did, attendance would be limited to folks attending regular classes, or those who've reach BB (remember, I have no ranks above that). I might work kata more one month, but then it's on to the next thing.
> 
> As for the advanced classes, the schools that I know in NGA that have BB classes do actually work the entire curriculum in those classes. Again, that difference is more due to the nature of the curriculum, though. NGA's core curriculum is 50 grappling techniques. Those are never left behind at any rank, so it's not at all uncommon to see a pair of black belts working on the first set (what's tested for first colored belt).
> 
> So, yeah, I can see that a school having specialized classes might end up with some students whose schedule leaves them mostly attending those classes. And I can see how a different style of curriculum might leave behind (that's not a negative comment, in case that's not clear) some of the earlier material that only shows up again mainly for testing.



Something my GM has always done that appears to be unusual is not limit or exempt anyone form any class. Say a white belt shows up for senior belt class. They can benefit from stretching and says kicks/be a kicking partner. But if the class is forms focus for instance, they will be sitting for a good portion of the class. They will benefit from "learning patience" and observing the senior belts action and decorum. 
We have a set pattern of children's classes and adult classes but have never tried to modularize age ranges as much as I have heard other schools on the forum do. The practice of truly open classes is made easier by the set schedule and class intent. It an adult shows up for children's class because that is all their schedule will permit that is fine. But they know up front it will not be the same workout they would get had they went to an adult class.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Something my GM has always done that appears to be unusual is not limit or exempt anyone form any class. Say a white belt shows up for senior belt class. They can benefit from stretching and says kicks/be a kicking partner. But if the class is forms focus for instance, they will be sitting for a good portion of the class. They will benefit from "learning patience" and observing the senior belts action and decorum.
> We have a set pattern of children's classes and adult classes but have never tried to modularize age ranges as much as I have heard other schools on the forum do. The practice of truly open classes is made easier by the set schedule and class intent. It an adult shows up for children's class because that is all their schedule will permit that is fine. But they know up front it will not be the same workout they would get had they went to an adult class.


It may be nitpicking, but they are excluded from the parts of class they can't do (when you mentioned them sitting during advanced forms). The same would happen if a lower belt had shown up for an "advanced" class. That class is expected to have harder throws, and often focuses on the techniques later in the syllabus (because there's less chance to work those in regular classes), so that lower rank would only be able to participate in small ways. If there was an injured advanced rank attending, they'd also have some limitations (and those two might get paired up).


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## mrt2 (Jun 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I'm not a fan of folks prepping specifically for a test. More to the point, I'm not a fan of folks _needing to_ prep specifically for a test. *It's my opinion that the test should align with what's taught/practiced in class. If they're doing their work properly in class (and the right amount and type outside class), they should just arrive at the test "ready". *So I like parts of the test (or even the entire test) to just happen - sometimes without them being aware of it (which is like this pre-testing during class). I'm okay with this causing a push prior to promotion, as they finally get a grip on what they need to improve on and get to work on those areas. That's part of the value of specific testing requirements.


I have a theory that the real testing takes place in class, and the "test" is mostly just for show.  Not to say a person couldn't completely flub the test and fail, but in general, when the head instructor tells you that you are ready to test, the vast majority of the time, he has already decided based on your work in class that you have passed.

I saw evidence of this just the other day.  I arrived early for class, and the head instructor was working with two younger high purple belts, both of whom were not performing their forms to the instructor's satisfaction.  I heard the head instructor tell both purple belts to work on their forms over the weekend and come to class next Wednesday, but that unless they improved a lot, he would not allow either of them to test for brown belt next Friday.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 22, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I have a theory that the real testing takes place in class, and the "test" is mostly just for show.  Not to say a person couldn't completely flub the test and fail, but in general, when the head instructor tells you that you are ready to test, the vast majority of the time, he has already decided based on your work in class that you have passed.
> 
> I saw evidence of this just the other day.  I arrived early for class, and the head instructor was working with two younger high purple belts, both of whom were not performing their forms to the instructor's satisfaction.  I heard the head instructor tell both purple belts to work on their forms over the weekend and come to class next Wednesday, but that unless they improved a lot, he would not allow either of them to test for brown belt next Friday.


There is some of that, depending upon the school. For me (as an instructor) the point of testing is to - in a relatively short window of time - get a quick overview of everything I think they need to be ready for the next level. My tests (at least at lower levels) are pretty casual, and they sometimes aren't even aware I'm testing them. I'd do less of that as the ranks increase. Some schools/instructors don't even really test much; they just evaluate along the way. Some have formal tests that are just a point to test people under stress, and it would take a lot to fail. Some have tests that are Very Big Deals (like @drop bear was talking about recently) that are meant to push students harder and further than regular training. Most instructors with formal tests won't test someone they think isn't ready, whether the test is evaluation, confirmation, or a Very Big Deal.


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## Druid11 (Jul 10, 2018)

Taekwondo Practicioner said:


> Hello I was wondering if someone could aid me to identify a mcdojo, as im 16 and none of my family tree has experience with martial arts and don't want to waste all my mustered up will and time on a scam, I'm in a very populated area so majority of gyms are in buildings-malls(just like mine is in a mall), the time of training is one hour(about an hour sometimes it extends to 30-40min after the hour) 3 times a week, and as a two week white belt, im kinda lost when it comes to what is a good gym or bad gym or the topic about mcdojos and would greatly appreciate any kind of help



I think as others have mentioned how you define a McDojo is kind of important.  If you see a McDojo simply as a martial arts school primarily concerned with making money than, I don't necessarily think that a McDojo is always a bad thing.  A school's (and it's owner's) main motivation can be to make money and still teach legitimate martial arts of good quality.  If you define McDojo as a scam or a school that's poor quality then that's another story.

I realize the OP is kind of old, but they mentioned in a subsequent post that it was mentioned that they were told they could get a back belt in two years by another student.  I supposed whether this is a red flag of some sort depends on the context of the comment.  If it was, "Hey man, you keep coming and working hard, you could get your black belt in about two years," then I don't really see that as a problem.  As others have mentioned a black belt in TKD in 2-3 years isn't unusual and the other student may have just been trying to be nice and motivational.  It the comment was more, "Hey man you can be a black belt in two years if you sign this contract and/or buy X,Y or Z," then I see that as an issue.

There are plenty of schools in my area that I would consider McDojos.  They have multiple locations and they have a slightly corporate or franchise feel to them.  They do legitimately teach martial arts, however.  It's not my cup of tea to train there, but I don't begrudge people who do enjoy their training.  I imagine some would see my Dojo as McDojo as it is my head instructors primary source of income.  He is concerned with both with retaining and bringing in new students on one hand because he loves to teach, but on the other hand, because it helps his bottom line.  However, his business practices are fair (at least IMO) and transparent and he's willing to work with people who are having financial problems, especially if they've been a student for any length of time.  

On the other end of the spectrum, there is an instructor in the area that has opened and closed a couple schools already (I know of him because he used to rent the same space our current Dojo is in).  He claims to teach Kung Fu, but from what I've seen of video of his classes (that he's posted himself) it's a weird mishmash of several different arts, mostly TKD.  He posts fairly outrageous claims about how after only a couple classes parents have told him how much better behaved their children are and how he took his white belts to a tournament and beat everyone.  And despite only opening this particular iteration of his school a couple months ago, he has what seems to be several highly ranked children as students (I'm not sure how his ranking system works, but the first two belts appear to be white and then yellow, he's posted picture with several students wearing purple belts).  By comparison, an instructor at my school opened her own Dojo in a neighboring town and after almost a year her highest ranked student is a Go-Kyu (yellow belt).  Now, this school I would call both a McDojo as his primary motivation appears to be making money, and I also think pretty much everything about his school and what he teaches is fishy.

So, I don't think that a school saying, "If you work hard and train regularly, you can possibly reach black belt in X amount of time," is in and of itself a bad thing.  I think that if a place is guaranteeing you a black belt in a certain time span, or they're making far out claims about what they teach or how effective what they teach is, then I would run.  If the instructor makes seem like he is a holder of some super special secret martial arts knowledge, then run.  If the school claims that only they and no one else teaches truly effective martial arts or that they have the secret to learning martial arts faster, then I would run.  If you just think it's a school that's trying to make money off of you, but you enjoy it and what they teach seems legit without outrageous claims, then you have to evaluate how you feel about that.  I personally don't see a problem with a school trying to make money and wouldn't really have a problem attending class there and long as their business practices where fair and upfront.


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## dvcochran (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There is some of that, depending upon the school. For me (as an instructor) the point of testing is to - in a relatively short window of time - get a quick overview of everything I think they need to be ready for the next level. My tests (at least at lower levels) are pretty casual, and they sometimes aren't even aware I'm testing them. I'd do less of that as the ranks increase. Some schools/instructors don't even really test much; they just evaluate along the way. Some have formal tests that are just a point to test people under stress, and it would take a lot to fail. Some have tests that are Very Big Deals (like @drop bear was talking about recently) that are meant to push students harder and further than regular training. Most instructors with formal tests won't test someone they think isn't ready, whether the test is evaluation, confirmation, or a Very Big Deal.


Especially in a school with kids there are exponentially more people testing for, I would say, the first three belts/colors. It is also usually true that these people are required to know/do less for a test. Naturally because of their time and experience. I made it a point to hand out testing forms to each testing student but as we got bigger I did not always do it for the lower belts simply because of volume.
My point is, for blue and red belts, (1 blue, 3 reds before black) it was a big deal to get your testing form. I made sure of it. It would be about a month before testing so the person knew they better get ready. The environment made the pass/fail question answer itself most of the time. That was always one of the questions I asked higher belts after testing. Very seldom were they honest with their answer. We never made it some kind of mystic, unclear experience. I wanted to see the performance of the required content and the maturity to know whether you performed to the required level. Physical, mental, and spiritual progression.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2018)

Druid11 said:


> I think as others have mentioned how you define a McDojo is kind of important.  If you see a McDojo simply as a martial arts school primarily concerned with making money than, I don't necessarily think that a McDojo is always a bad thing.  A school's (and it's owner's) main motivation can be to make money and still teach legitimate martial arts of good quality.  If you define McDojo as a scam or a school that's poor quality then that's another story.
> 
> I realize the OP is kind of old, but they mentioned in a subsequent post that it was mentioned that they were told they could get a back belt in two years by another student.  I supposed whether this is a red flag of some sort depends on the context of the comment.  If it was, "Hey man, you keep coming and working hard, you could get your black belt in about two years," then I don't really see that as a problem.  As others have mentioned a black belt in TKD in 2-3 years isn't unusual and the other student may have just been trying to be nice and motivational.  It the comment was more, "Hey man you can be a black belt in two years if you sign this contract and/or buy X,Y or Z," then I see that as an issue.
> 
> ...


Given the term that was chosen, I suspect McDojo originally referred to chain schools, or those that felt like such. As you correctly surmise (and even do in your own post) most of us use it as a general pejorative that doesn't say anything specific. 

A chain school can be good or bad, by almost any measure we care to use (as, of course, can an independent school). The same is true of schools with full-time instructors, versus hobbyists. Interestingly, I doubt anyone throws epithets at full-time boxing coaches simply because they're full-time at it. The idea that a MA instructor shouldn't be earning his living off his teaching is odd to me, and must be something derived from one or more Asian cultures.


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## JR 137 (Jul 10, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Given the term that was chosen, I suspect McDojo originally referred to chain schools, or those that felt like such. As you correctly surmise (and even do in your own post) most of us use it as a general pejorative that doesn't say anything specific.
> 
> A chain school can be good or bad, by almost any measure we care to use (as, of course, can an independent school). The same is true of schools with full-time instructors, versus hobbyists. Interestingly, I doubt anyone throws epithets at full-time boxing coaches simply because they're full-time at it. The idea that a MA instructor shouldn't be earning his living off his teaching is odd to me, and must be something derived from one or more Asian cultures.


To me, McDojo means basically what McDonald’s means - the quickest, easiest MA that’s devoid of any substance and appeals to the masses due to its marketing and inoffensiveness.  It’s a poor excuse for MA.  Think about McDonald’s - the food is quick, easy, and bland compared to a genuine restaurant.  Genuinely, a poor excuse for food.  

What McDojos and McDonald’s don’t typically have in common is price.  McDonald’s is cheap compared to actual restaurant food.  McDojos?  The norm is overpriced, even for genuinely good MA instruction.


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