# Nasty Reminder



## satans.barber (Mar 4, 2003)

Sometimes, I feel as though I'm wasting my time. It's not that I don't enjoy training, and I'd never give it up, but it's been so long since someone actually threatened me that I feel as though I'll never need to use what I know.

Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.

Then, once in a while, something comes along and reminds why I keep putting in 100% effort, just in case.

Unfortunately, I had one such reminder today.

A friend of mine was subjected to an unprovoked attack on Saturday night, thrown down in the street, kicked in the head and then left in the middle of the road. They stomped on him so hard you can see the boot print on his face.

He sent me these two shocking photos, which I found in my e-mail today.

http://satansbarber.co.uk/images/me.bmp

http://satansbarber.co.uk/images/bootmark.bmp

Just remember, what you know might not only stop this happening to yourself, but you might also be able to help out your friends or family. I only wish I'd have been there with him...

I'm sorry if the pictures upset anyone.

Ian.


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## Jill666 (Mar 4, 2003)

I'm sorry your friend went through that. It may be you carry yourself with a confidence that goes unchallenged.

I hope your friend heals damn fast. :yinyang:


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## Kirk (Mar 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *I'm sorry your friend went through that. It may be you carry yourself with a confidence that goes unchallenged.
> 
> I hope your friend heals damn fast. :yinyang: *




I'll second that!


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## Cruentus (Mar 4, 2003)

I hope he heals as well. Some people are relentless. I guess that is why we all train, though, in the long run.


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## Kenpomachine (Mar 5, 2003)

Grrrr, how can anybody do that to another person?
Send your friends loads of good vibes to recover asap


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## tarabos (Mar 5, 2003)

that's too bad for your friend man...my sympathies to him...


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## Michael Billings (Mar 5, 2003)

Good things happen to Bad People; and
Bad thing happen to Good People.

I had a friend that got beat up at a copyshop parking lot at 9:30 in the morning.  He is 140 lbs. dripping wet and not obnoxious or abrasive at all.  Some college football player sized person punched him and was kicking him in the head.  The staff from the copy shop probably saved his life.  A completly unprovoked unpredictable attack.

I see it all the time in my "other profession" and know that you are not living in the real world if you do not have "Acceptance" of the potential for violence in any society.

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## satans.barber (Mar 5, 2003)

Yeah, that's one of the most disgusting things about this, it's not just the fact that there were 4 of them onto one of him, he's so small that he never stood a chance.

I mean, I'm 5'10" and 200lb (about 4lb of which is fat to lose, the rest is muscle and bone), so I could imagine them having a go at someone like me, but Stephen's literally no higher than 5' and weighing about 110lb at the most, even though he's the same age as me. How can 4 large guys beat on someone built like that? They must have no sense of guilt or concience whatsoever.

He's also scared of retribution if he goes to the police about it, so they've basically gotten away with it, which makes it even worse.

Ian.


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## Michael Billings (Mar 5, 2003)

... even if he is reluctant to do this, he needs to file a report while the injuries are still evident.  I cannot stress this enough.  If there are no consequences for a bully's (or bullies') behavior, then it will probably continue.  If he knows theses guys, so much the worse.  I would be willing to bet they try to do it again if they get away with it the 1st time.  

If he does not know them, then where does the fear of retribution come from?  His own fear, which is understandable, but he needs to take care of himself some other way if he cannot physically do it, not to say any of us would not be injured fighting 4 attackers, but he needs to pursue it legally to protect himself from future assualts.

Just my opinion ... and the voice of reason and experience!

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## KanoLives (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Sometimes, I feel as though I'm wasting my time. It's not that I don't enjoy training, and I'd never give it up, but it's been so long since someone actually threatened me that I feel as though I'll never need to use what I know.
> 
> Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.
> ...



That's just wrong. I mean what the hell is wrong with people today? I wish your friend a speedy recovery. Personally I have never been in that type of situation. I mean I'm a big guy. 6'  270 lbs. So I think people look at me and think twice. But my friend is about 6' 130 lbs. So he gets pushed and shoved around by people who think they're a bunch of tough guys. But as soon as I make my presence known they back off. So I guess some idiots look at smaller people and think they can just push them around or kick their heads in and because that person is bigger it gives them the right to do this stuff. It's just wrong. Like I said I'm a big dude but I don't go around starting fights with anyone. It's the whole "I'm a tough guy" kinda thing with these people until another person comes along and mops the floor with them. Then hopefully they learn. The only thing I could say is:

"What goes around, comes around."


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## jeffkyle (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ChineseKempoAL _
> *The only thing I could say is:
> 
> "What goes around, comes around." *



I agree with you there.  Eventually one, or all of those guys will pull that stunt with the wrong guy, big or small, and they will find out that it isn't very fun when there are feet prints on their faces!


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 6, 2003)

I'm sorry to hear about your friends mishap. Please post on his progress here to let us know if he's getting better without any internal problems.


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## Wes Idol (Mar 6, 2003)

Anything can happen at any time.  Acceptance of your environment is essential, after which time one should sustain total clarity in how far one will go, to protect something.  By most large men in America, I'm not a big man.  Interestingly enough, if my wife walks into a bar before me, men stare at her, but quickly drop their gaze when I walk in.  I asked a friend of mine why...he thinks people can feel intent.  I remain quite and approachable with humans, as I am fond of others...but I am certainly willing to extract life to protect my peace.  He suggests that others sense I'm a nice white man, with a slight screw loose.  As funny as this sounds, I sense it is this intent that keeps me out of most scraps.  Preditors want prey, not other preditors.

As this man is your friend, you have my empathy towards his recovery of his Body and Spirit.  Lastly, nice reminder on how we should prepare to protect those we love...that's us and others.

Respectfully, 

WI, HI
UKS


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## satans.barber (Mar 8, 2003)

Thankfully, he seems to be healing up well, although he still looks a mess. You never know with these sorts of things though, I mean, if someone repeatedly kicks you in the head then there could be a blood clot or anything, it's hard to know.

I asked him if he'd been to the police yet earlier:

Satan's Barber [5:01 pm] :
have you been to the police then?
Morritt [5:01 pm] :
was talking to another copper the other day... 
Morritt [5:02 pm] :
there pretty much useless
Satan's Barber [5:02 pm] :
officially or unofficially?
Morritt [5:02 pm] :
well if you listen to what her advise was officially
Satan's Barber [5:02 pm] :
and what did she say?
Morritt [5:03 pm] :
pretty much wait till they do it again and report them then.... oh and don't do anything yourself cos that would be illegal and i'd get locked up

There you go, an example of fine British policing 'wait and see if they do it again'. I despair sometimes, I really do.

He took some photographs of his injuries straight away (although with a digital camera, not a 35mm one as I suggested...not sure that digital pics would stand up as well in court) and he has 20-30 witnesses, including an off duty policeman, so there's everything he needs to prosecute, but I don't think he will.

I can't help thinking that if he doesn't it's going to be something he deeply regrets.

Ian.


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## Guiseppe Betri (Mar 8, 2003)

What happened to your buddy is unfortunate to say the least.  I am also sorry to hear of the attitude the police officer has towards this incident.  I know for a fact in fine WA state things would be handled a bit differently.  There would be some type of investigation for an incident such as this.  Does your friend train at all?  Has this event swayed his wanting to do so?  He will heal.  
To Mr. Billings, what is your "other profession?"  If you feel you don't want to make the whole forum privy to that info I understand.    :asian:


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## Les (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *There you go, an example of fine British policing 'wait and see if they do it again'. I despair sometimes, I really do.
> 
> He took some photographs of his injuries straight away (although with a digital camera, not a 35mm one as I suggested...not sure that digital pics would stand up as well in court) and he has 20-30 witnesses, including an off duty policeman, so there's everything he needs to prosecute, but I don't think he will.
> ...



Ian,

The thing you have to remember in this country is this:

You can commit any crime you like, and you'll probably get away with it, so long as your 'get away car' has it's MoT Certificate and Tax Disc. (For our American cousins, this is the legal documentation required to use a motor vehicle in the UK).

Les


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## Michael Billings (Mar 8, 2003)

It is no secret as I have it on my profile.  I am an administrative law judge in the State of Texas.  

That level of injury would have gotten an Aggravated Assault" (felony) in Texas, unless there was a "mutual combat" scenario at the time of the assault.  Even then, they would have gone to the hospital and jail, respectively.  The District Attorney would then dismiss or take to the Grand Jury to see if the charge would be pursued.

No off duty cop would have let that happen in the U.S.   ....  yeah, right, and if you click your heels together 3 times you will end up in Kansas.  OK, clicking now ... I am still here!  Guess some law enforcement types might like to see a fight, or not like the looks of the combatants, or not be armed, or be under the influence and "know" better than to step in, or have been injured or whatever.  There are good ones and bad ones, not just in the cities, but everwhere.  But my experience is that there are a lot more "good" cops than bad ones.  But the old saying about one bad apple spoiling the bunch has some validity, but more so in the law enforcement agencies reputation with the public than anything else.  One incident can certainly be blown out of proportion to the extent that nobody trust the police.  They are still about the best friends you have, generally.

:soapbox: 

Whoops, too much caffine, blood sugar a bit low, and blithering a bit.  None-the-less it is still my perspective and opinion.

Oss,
-Michael 
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Guiseppe Betri (Mar 9, 2003)

Mr. Billings, 
First off, I salute you for your respectful and honorable profession.  I am a cop.  This may seem hard for you to fathom but most of the police officers I know would have intervened with the incident this thread was started with, if the variables you mentioned did not exist (no alcohol on board, armed).  Sounds like you have met some cops that were less than honorable.  I don't doubt it.  However, like you said the majority are good ones.  Most of us are "do-gooders" who do want to make a difference and we carry with us our morals and values, both on and off-duty. 
When you had written "my other profession", I thought for sure you were a cop.  I didn't even think to check your profile.  Thanks for the thought exchange.


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## Ronin (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Sometimes, I feel as though I'm wasting my time. It's not that I don't enjoy training, and I'd never give it up, but it's been so long since someone actually threatened me that I feel as though I'll never need to use what I know.
> 
> Maybe that's a good thing, I don't know.
> ...


Well you need a confidence booster!!  There are a lot of great things your training has done for you over the years you just havent realized most of them.  I sometimes share the same thoughts, however when you need it,  it will be there providing you train hard regularly.  Think of the health benefits you are recieving, and as a cop I can say,  just because I carry a gun and havent shot anyone doesnt make me feel my firearms training is a waste of time.  Its better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.   Spend time with martial artists that inspire you and look back onto what got you involved in it in the first place.   Maybe that will ignite your flame again.  Its easy to hear of fights going bad,  I remember in a tournament losing badly and Mr. Conatser reminded me that I wasnt a bad fighter I just applied the wrong techniques at that given time and  that I needed further practice and experience.    Start sparring some more nothing conditions you and gives you confidence like a good fight.  Well sorry if I rambled i hope its helps.


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## satans.barber (Mar 9, 2003)

I wasn't there so I don't have the exact details, but I don't think the off duty officer was there when they actually beat him up, as far as I know he was in the pub when the group threatened my friend and saw them follow him outside.

Certinaly I would hope that no off duty policeman (or lady) would ever actually stand by and watch a crime, just because they weren't in uniform; they're trained to realise that they're never really off the job. I wouldn't be surprised if some would do though.

As Les quite rightly says though, th amount of effective policing that goes on in Britain is ridiculously low, and they do seem to concentrate on vehicle licensing more than people's safety! The other week a police woman confiscated a go-cart (I think the American term is 'soap box') off three 8 year old children in a town near here because they wee playing with it in the road, and it had no tax disk. Seriously.

We don't even have a police station here now, they closed it down. There are 37,000 people in this council ward, which covers a few small villages as well as Garforth where I live, which is pretty big (where the incient happened) and all we have is a 'One Stop Center', which is a combined police station and council offices (where people to go sort out benefits etc.). Although inside the One Stop Center, there is a desk manned by only one policeman from 8am-8pm (when the least amount of crime happens).

Further to this, the policeman who mans the desk most of the time is useless. I work in the library which is directly accross the street from the One Stop Center, and a collegue of mine rang up one day to ask if the officer could come over to the library because she felt threatened by a group of glue sniffers who'd come in, and he said:

"Can it wait, I'm just eating my dinner?"

So, as a community we basically have zero police presence. Since they shut down the police station some 4 years ago now, there has been a large increase in burglaries and violence such as my friend suffered. This is rather worrying.

To give this some historical perpsective, when my Dad started his career as a policeman some 28 years ago now, he was based at the police station here in Garforth once he'd finished his training (which in those days was 2 full years, now it's 6 weeks). At the police station then there was a full shift (8 policeman) on duty at any one time, as well as a sergeant, a chief superintendant, some CID and a section of the dog squad. Of course, on Friday to Sunday evenings there would have been a police presence right up and down main street, and I douby anyone ever got their heads kicked in the middle of the road.

Now we have one useless old sod in daylight hours who can't be bothered to do his job whilst he's eating a sandwich!

Ian.


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## satans.barber (Mar 9, 2003)

Oh, Guiseppe asked if he'd done any training before - the answer is no he hasn't.

I have offered to bring him up to the kenpo club (it's 2 minutes away from where he lives) before but he didn't seem to interested, I don't think it's his kind of thing really.

I also offered again after the accident and I told him is might help him get some self confidence back, and he seemed a little more receptive to the idea.

I think he thinks that because he's so small he'll be no good at it, but I've tried to convince him otherwise.

Anyway, the offer is there if he ever wants to take me up on it,

Ian.


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## Les (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *
> I think he thinks that because he's so small he'll be no good at it, but I've tried to convince him otherwise.
> Ian. *



Ian,

Point out to him that the essence of the Kenpo System is that it is tailored to the person.

I'm only 5ft 2 ins myself, but I'm getting the hang of it.

Les


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *. . .
> 
> Certainly I would hope that no off duty policeman (or lady) would ever actually stand by and watch a crime, just because they weren't in uniform; they're trained to realize that they're never really off the job. I wouldn't be surprised if some would do though.
> ...



First, I am sorry to hear about the assault. I hope your friend gets well.

Second, let me say that there are a lot of good cops. I know many. 

As to the quote above.

I was bouncing a bar one night, and went down to another club my friend was running. Image a city Alley and it is about 4 buildings down. I still had someone at my door and I went to investigate a large group of people.  It turned out to be a lot of ***** (* I edited out the racist group's name *).  There were 6 girls all with pitbulls and Dobermans jumping at the end of their leashes to get into the fun. There were about another 10 cheering and making noise and just acting tough, while 4 more were actually pit dancing up against the bouncers of this other club. That is to say no punches just body slams, They were just pushing the law, because no actual threat or assault has occurred, since they were just 'dancing'. I came up close to the scene right as all hell broke loose. two guys bumped / danced into the two bouncers again, and the third and fourth then reached over top and with one hit each they took out the bouncers.   They were down and the bad guys started stomping them guys down with their steeled toed boots. (* A felony in Michigan Assault and Battery with the attempt to commit murder *) I jumped in to give some guys a chance to pull the two downed guys into the doorway and out of harms way. I literally had one at the end of each arm by the neck. The fourth guy was still after the downed bouncers, and the third jumped over the shoulders of the two I had, and hit me the hardest I have ever been hit before. My right eye immediately crossed. I could not use it. I knew if I went down I was done for. I closed the eye and continued to fight. A while later (* Seconds *) I stepped back for balance and stepped on a downed bouncer's foot. I went down in the doorway. I was then jumped on by the main guy who had hit me.

Unknown to me, an off-duty officer was watching a nearby bank, while some workers were inside, he had stepped outside for a smoke break. He say me go by and he kind of followed me to see where I was going. He say it all happen. And instead of jumping in, he ran back inside to call the police. He then came back out side and he no longer could see me, only see the guys attacking the doorway. He did not charge in since he assumed the doorway was closed, and it was better to be safe and wait for back up, given the numbers and the dogs and the possibilities of weapons.

I was on the ground, I had both legs up holding the jerk on top of me. He was trying to hit me. I held him at bay with one leg and kicked him with the other. This frustrated him so he jumped back off and tried to kick me in the groin. (* Seig be Quiet *) I then did ankle kicks to his shins to keep his kicks from landing with any real damage. He then jumped on me again. This continued for a couple of minutes. Once the other bouncers were clear, I was able to roll back and after another guy close the door after he had jumpers off of me. When I got the door back open he and his friends were running for the vehicles. The police were coming. And literally they left just before the police arrived. Many of the witnesses were upset (* They were in a place to see the off - duty officer and me *) when they found out about the off-duty officer.  So, given perspective the off-duty officer did his best, yet I could have used a little bit of help. Others were mad, I think personally because they did not react either. I was happy the off-duty officer had called the police and back-up. It meant my total time being on the ground was less.

So, sometimes, it depends upon the perspective. The off-duty officer may not have believed the threats, and just figured everyone had gone home. 

Just some insight from someone who has been there also. 

Respect


:asian:


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## GouRonin (Mar 9, 2003)

Just a notion. Many people seem to have it their head, and it was put there by martial arts teachers I am sure, that fights look a certain way. That it's man against man, that all these techniques will burst forth when you get into a fight from your training. But they tell you not to use your training lest you kill someone.

Then they wonder why so called _"sport"_ martial arts like Boxing, Brazilian Jiu-jitsu, and NHB do so well when put against their art.

It's because they practice what they plan to do. They do it for real. Here's an example of 2 guys who know nothing but one still manages to end up in the mount after he feeds the kid 2 punches. Notice how the kicks become something he later feeds the kid when he's got the upper hand?

http://download.consumptionjunction.com/multimedia/cj_17898.wmv

The first thing I downloaded looking for more fights was 2 girls in a schoolyard who go down into the guard while they both grab and punch with the opposite hand. Another is 2 bicyclists going at each other...grab and pound. In fact I have a clip of 1 guys fighting 4 other guys and he grabs and pounds. The only technique he uses is to pound and get away to pound another guy and then get clear. ( I can send these to you)

There is no moving in or out of the conflict until one has the upperhand or can retreat. No step through punches.

I think we all need to get very clear on what is actually happening out there and isn't happening in the dojo.


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## satans.barber (Mar 9, 2003)

That's a good point to make Gou, but what are you driving at?

Are you saying to be open minded about actual conflicts and not to try and go about them in a pre-defined way, or are you saying that martial arts training isn't ever really going to give anyone the upper hand because of the un-predicatbility of the situation?

I would hope, at least, that kenpo brings us closer to street situations that some martial arts do. 

At our club we frequently try and do as realistic a training as possibly without actually sending people limping home (if you train full power and with brutality, then you're willfully subjecting yourself to the one thing that you're trianing to avoid), but I do realise that it's never going to be the same.

One thing that's quite interesting to do it set out some tables, sit down at one, and then have 2 or 3 people start on you. There's a tendancy to train in open halls, with no obstructions, then someone gets into a fight in a pub an the first thing that happens is someone pushes them backwards over a table! Try it, you can throw people into the tables yourself (Taming the Mace works well), whilst trying to avoid them yourself etc.. From a seated position, you can come up with lots of responses to grabs and things as well, including some particularly nice slam-their-face-into-the-wood ones 

Another good exercise it to make everyone spar in one small corner of the room, instead of spreading out. Not only does this teach people to avoid 'civilians' as it were, but you can also try and lose the person who's actually attacking you by moving through the crowd. Good for peripheral vision and spacial awareness too.

Other favourites are someone trying to cut you up with a smashed bottle or glass (just cut a plastic bottle jagged, and then smooth off the pointy bits), 2-4 onto one sparring, and of course a technique line up with random attack met by random defense. You can also try starting on the floor and trying to get up, which is pretty scary.

Of course, lots of padwork is also essential, so people actually get used to slamming their fists, feet, elbows, knees at. into something more than thin air. 

...as I said, it's never going to totally prepare people for one of more random nutters intent on damaging you, but, it's surely doing more good than standing in a neatly formed line practicing lock out punches and develping a lovely ki-ai nosie...

Ian.

p.s. I think the guy in that video might've done better if he wasn't wearing that hoodie! It was covering his face half the time. Always remember if you're going out, what are you wearing and if you had to, can you fight in it...

As a side note, because I'm a student I have to walk everywhere with a heavy rucksack on, so one day I started training in normal clothes with the damn thing on my back...didn't half make a difference to mobility!


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## SingingTiger (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Just a notion. Many people seem to have it their head, and it was put there by martial arts teachers I am sure, that fights look a certain way.*



Damn.  Thanks for the reality check, Gou.

Seems to me that one good lesson to learn from that video is, "never start a fight."  

Rich


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## GouRonin (Mar 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *That's a good point to make Gou, but what are you driving at?
> *



I'm saying that some dojo's are preparing people for unrealistic self defense and that we should all be open minded as to what we do and look out there to see what is really going on. We don't fight the same way we did 30 years ago. We don't have the same problems we did 30 years ago. Hell, since 9/11 we don't have the same issues we did 2 years ago. Let's not get stuck in traditionalism.



> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *p.s. I think the guy in that video might've done better if he wasn't wearing that hoodie! It was covering his face half the time. Always remember if you're going out, what are you wearing and if you had to, can you fight in it...*



The kid would have done better if he had any heart and paid attention to what he was throwing at.


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## satans.barber (Mar 16, 2003)

As a pleasing end note to this story, I just received word from my friend, and he wants to come down to the club tommorrow night to try out a lesson 

Hopefully, if he likes it enough to stay, then he may be able to help himself and others in simialar situations in the future...

Ian.


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## Jill666 (Mar 16, 2003)

Good for him- I hope it helps him feel better about what happened, aside from the other obvious benefits.

:asian:


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## theletch1 (Mar 16, 2003)

The biggest benifit that he'll get in the short term will be the self confidence to walk with his head up and eyes moving.  It's amazing what the "predators" will by pass if they feel that there may be even the slightest bit of a challenge to their attack.  One of the things that I wish were covered more in my training is how to carry yourself, being aware of who and what are around you, escape avenues and weapons of opportunity.  All of these things were things that were unofficially taught to us in the Marine Corps before hitting the fleet and carry over very well into civilian life.  One of the things that is expected of the students in my kwoon when we make brown is to design and instruct a one hour class for the rest of the students.  I've already begun preparing the class that I will do and this subject will be the exact one that I do the class on.  I fully intend to use some of the suggestion on this thread for the class.  If you have any more let me know.

Maybe getting into kenpo will give your friend that ethereal something or other that will act as a warning to the next bunch of thugs that go out looking for an "easy" target.

My best to your friend.
respectfully,
theletch1:asian:


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