# What Is Tai Ji Quan?



## 47MartialMan (May 9, 2005)

It is defined as many things. What is your definition and opinion?


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## 7starmantis (May 9, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> It is defined as many things. What is your definition and opinion?


 What exactly are you asking? Are you asking what people practice Taiji for? 

 7sm


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## dmax999 (May 9, 2005)

Supreme Ultimate Fist

I think of it as the ultimate and undefeatable style of martial arts.  By its basic principles and techniques there is nothing that can compare with it.  The only limiting factor is the skill of the practiconer.  No other MA I have seen depends so much on skill as opposed to speed strength and power.  It is one of the few arts that large size and strength differences between two opponents can be so easily overcome with a high level of skill.

The only real problem with it is the amount of time it takes to get significant skill with it.  Most who practice will never be skilled enough to be able to use it in a fight.


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## 47MartialMan (May 9, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> What exactly are you asking? Are you asking what people practice Taiji for?
> 
> 7sm


Yes, or Taiji Quan.

Also, your definition and/or perception


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## TaiChiTJ (May 10, 2005)

Good Question. 


Here's a good overall article, featuring some top names in the art, providing a variety of viewpoints, on Shifu Mancuso's Plum Publication site. 

http://www.plumpub.com/info/Articles/art_TCmartialart.htm


TaiJiQuan has been described in animal terms as the Snake and the Crane. I find that useful to reflect on. Think about how a snake evades an attack, and strikes back, in one unified motion. It first retreats back (just slightly), then repositions off to the side of the incoming attack. The incoming attack "falls on emptiness" as the tai chi classic texts say. Meanwhile the snake is launching full force, using all the force from its coiled body, it base, to launch its fangs straight at the adversary. Often times its incoming line is just inches away, and travelling parallel to, the enemies incoming force. 

Try it with a training partner, in something less than full force action. Empty any tension in your shoulders, that's not useful here. Your base is your hips and they will make a slight semi-circle:

Retreat-Reposition off to the side-come in with the attack. 

Do big circles first (inches), but know that smaller circles (centimeters) is what the tai chi chuan master hands were about.  

As you retreat back a slight bit the hands are gently guiding the opponents arms off and to the side, They need to be soft and alive like an insect antennae. 

It is an art for a lifetime.


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

That was interesting. Although I have my own understanding of it. I am looking for more from others. Keep 'em coming.


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## clfsean (May 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> That was interesting. Although I have my own understanding of it. I am looking for more from others. Keep 'em coming.


Instead of phishing around for other thoughts & definitions... how about expounding on yours.


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## Sailor (May 10, 2005)

I see it as a martial art based on the principles of the grand ultimate, more commomly know as Yin and Yang.

 An example whould be that the monkey, tiger, dragon etc. is a style based on the movements and actions of those animals. Tai Chi Ch'uan is based on the actions of the grand ultimate...movements flowing into one another, one action yielding into another etc..


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

Sailor said:
			
		

> I see it as a martial art based on the principles of the grand ultimate, more commomly know as Yin and Yang.
> 
> An example whould be that the monkey, tiger, dragon etc. is a style based on the movements and actions of those animals. Tai Chi Ch'uan is based on the actions of the grand ultimate...movements flowing into one another, one action yielding into another etc..


Very interesting. Great post


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## 7starmantis (May 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Very interesting. Great post


 So are you going to follow suit and answer your own question?

 7sm


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## Dronak (May 10, 2005)

I thought about making a comment like that, too.

Usually when you want to get other people's opinions, it helps to post your own first to start off the discussion.  You've waited and gotten some replies now, so how about adding your views, 47MartialMan?

As the definition of tai chi is not something I've thought about, I'm not going to post a real answer.  If I had to go with something though, I'd say look at the little description for the forum.  I was around when it was being revised and users were adding comments and suggestions for how to phrase it, so somewhere along the way I agreed with everyone else on what to put there.


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

The name Taijiquan can be directly translated quite easily. It means Supreme (or Grand) Ultimate Fist. Simple, no? Well, actually, this causes quite a lot of confusion. I have lost count of the number of times Ive come across people having the direct translation correct, but falling into the trap of not quite grasping what it means. Its fairly easy to do. 

At first glance, the name Supreme Ultimate Fist can appear to be boastful. It is easy to think that it is the equivalent to calling a style Best Fighting Style Ever. Ive seen otherwise apparently knowledgeable people use this to justify statements proclaiming Taijiquans superiority, on the basis that no-one would call a style Best Fighting Style Ever if it werent true. This is rather naive.


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## clfsean (May 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The name Taijiquan can be directly translated quite easily. It means Supreme (or Grand) Ultimate Fist. Simple, no? Well, actually, this causes quite a lot of confusion. I have lost count of the number of times Ive come across people having the direct translation correct, but falling into the trap of not quite grasping what it means. Its fairly easy to do.
> 
> At first glance, the name Supreme Ultimate Fist can appear to be boastful. It is easy to think that it is the equivalent to calling a style Best Fighting Style Ever. Ive seen otherwise apparently knowledgeable people use this to justify statements proclaiming Taijiquans superiority, on the basis that no-one would call a style Best Fighting Style Ever if it werent true. This is rather naive.


So enlighten us & quit the BS ... answer the question directly. All you do is ask rhetorical, circular questions... answer something straight for once...


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

clfsean said:
			
		

> So enlighten us & quit the BS ... answer the question directly. All you do is ask rhetorical, circular questions... answer something straight for once...


You remind me of someone else. You didn't even post your definition/opinion. Instead, you went on a "head-hunting" crusade. IMHO, you were trolling or looking for conflict. I thought I gave some info of my view. What is it that of my post, you don't understand? You want more?-hope you can understand;



For *Sailor-*I liked your response-thanks;


			
				[b said:
			
		

> Sailor[/b]]Originally Posted by *Sailor*
> _I see it as a martial art based on the principles of the grand ultimate, more commomly know as Yin and Yang....An example whould be that the monkey, tiger, dragon etc. is a style based on the movements and actions of those animals. Tai Chi Ch'uan is based on the actions of the grand ultimate...movements flowing into one another, one action yielding into another etc......_


 The key thing to remember here is that Supreme Ultimate refers to a Daoist principle. The principle is that of the yin/yang duality of all nature. In Daoist philosophy, this is the guiding, foundation principle upon which everything rests. The style of Taijiquan is named for this principle, as it is the central principle upon which the style of fighting is based. 

The entire point here is that we need to keep in mind that translations can be the basis for much confusion. When we base our ideas on assumptions, we can go off on entirely the wrong tangent, especially if the assumptions we make are incorrect in fact. It comes down to the old adage that a small amount of knowledge is a dangerous thing. 

It doesnt do to become complacent. When we cease to seek answers for ourselves and simply begin to take someone elses word for something, or base opinions and beliefs on fragmented information, we end up deluding ourselves. And we also end up perpetuating errors, and it will be believed by even more people that Taijiquan means Best style ever

Of course, this is my view upon some Daosit references that I have read.

Thank you for those that will post their definition/opinion.

My signature is my summary............


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> So are you going to follow suit and answer your own question?
> 
> 7sm


I was looking for other opinions....where is yours?


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## Dronak (May 10, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I thought I gave some info of my view. What is it that of my post, you don't understand? You want more?



About all you said before was that people misunderstand the literal translation of taijiquan.  That's not exactly unexpected.  I can understand clfsean's post asking you to post a more straight answer than that.

I can't actually speak for 7starmantis, but I would guess he's waiting for you to answer the question first.


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## 47MartialMan (May 10, 2005)

Dronak said:
			
		

> About all you said before was that people misunderstand the literal translation of taijiquan. That's not exactly unexpected. I can understand clfsean's post asking you to post a more straight answer than that.
> 
> I can't actually speak for 7starmantis, but I would guess he's waiting for you to answer the question first.


My starting of this thread was:
_It is defined as many things. What is your definition and opinion?_

Some people define or give opinion upon its literal translation. I was posting in accordance to this. However, looking for some refreshing views. But any info, view, or post are welcomed.


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## clfsean (May 11, 2005)

So since I remind you of somebody else... another question or two... 

Do you practice Taiji?
If so, what style?
Who's your teacher & where's the lineage run back to?
How long have you practiced Taiji?

That's a start...


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## 47MartialMan (May 11, 2005)

Why dont you post what is yor definition/opinion of it and stay on topic.


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## TaiChiTJ (May 11, 2005)

Actually the real question this group might approach is as follows: 

Is there such a thing as "indoor" tai chi? That is, something other than the postural correctness of Yang Cheng Fu's ten points taught in the parks.

What might these teachings cover?


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## 7starmantis (May 12, 2005)

Guys, this thread is going nowhere. 47MartialMan, starting a thread like this without being willing to answer your own questions, or any questions of others is a bit elitist and comes across as supercilious. Your asking everyone to do something you aren't willing to do. The true reason for this thread is unclear. Lets either be polite and post honestly to have a true discussion or abandon the thread.

 7sm


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## Sailor (May 12, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> Is there such a thing as "indoor" tai chi? That is, something other than the postural correctness of Yang Cheng Fu's ten points taught in the parks.
> 
> What might these teachings cover?


  It is my understanding that "indoor" tai chi is teachings given above and beyond what is taught in a normal class.

 These teachings are given after the student has proven himself to be deserving of the private classes. Usually given to someone who is going to teach and continue the system.

  Could include things like teaching methods, application, higher levels of breathing exercises and so on.


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## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Guys, this thread is going nowhere. 47MartialMan, starting a thread like this without being willing to answer your own questions, or any questions of others is a bit elitist and comes across as supercilious. Your asking everyone to do something you aren't willing to do. The true reason for this thread is unclear. Lets either be polite and post honestly to have a true discussion or abandon the thread.
> 
> 7sm


I thought I did answer my own.
Per my initial:
_It is defined as many things. What is your definition and opinion?_

I gave two posts of what I thought the definition was per what it is commonly thought of and my opinion.


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## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

Sailor said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that "indoor" tai chi is teachings given above and beyond what is taught in a normal class.
> 
> These teachings are given after the student has proven himself to be deserving of the private classes. Usually given to someone who is going to teach and continue the system.
> 
> Could include things like teaching methods, application, higher levels of breathing exercises and so on.


So "indoor" is like being in the "inner circle", the "click", above the "mainstream"?

Thus, many people seek it for exercise and such of those do not persist in further applications.


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## Sailor (May 12, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> So "indoor" is like being in the "inner circle", the "click", above the "mainstream"?
> 
> Thus, many people seek it for exercise and such of those do not persist in further applications.


  I like the sound of "inner circle" best.

 Alot has to do with how long the person has trained and where they're understanding of the style is. It wouldn't do much good to teach a beginner at the same level that you teach someone with say 10 years experience. The beginner would get lost or confused with the ideas and concepts. It's not that they can't learn it, it's just that they need the reference points to go by. "You have to learn to walk before you can run".

 And as you say some are not interested in anything more then doing it for health puposes, they reach a certain level and are happy at that point, while others search for the "holy grail" and try to learn all that they can.

  All and all it's a fun journey.


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## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

Sailor said:
			
		

> A.) I like the sound of "inner circle" best.
> 
> B.) Alot has to do with how long the person has trained and where they're understanding of the style is. It wouldn't do much good to teach a beginner at the same level that you teach someone with say 10 years experience. The beginner would get lost or confused with the ideas and concepts. It's not that they can't learn it, it's just that they need the reference points to go by. "You have to learn to walk before you can run".
> 
> ...


A.) Glad you liked it. It was also used as "pun"

B.) How true. But there are a lot of instructors whom haven't learned the other applications. I have seen many such in health clubs. Thus, not educating the common wealth about these.

C.) Per my (B), I think it has a lot to to with fad. Or my term-"Sheik-N-Geek". In many cases, those that seek the "holy grail" might not find it.


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## Sailor (May 12, 2005)

I consider myself lucky in that I have known my instructor since the late 70's so during that time you'll find if they do real Tai Chi or feel good Tai Chi.

 That and I've found that Tai Chi, can become a very personnal art, so those that want more then to just learn the form realy make it they're own.

 I to have seen the health club guru's. They watch a tape or go to a couple of seminars and suddenly they're teachers. I think they do more harm then good mostly because they haven't learned proper structure and can realy screw up a persons knees. But Tai Chi is not alone in having incompetant teachers.

 To get back on the topic though, I think for every person who has spent time in Tai Chi you'll get a different answer on what it is. And even if it's just an opinion on what it is, some will still argue.


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## 47MartialMan (May 12, 2005)

Well, the purpose I started this thread was to find other definitions and opinions on it from other people. Thus, a general discussion. The thread can go into lineage per style (not a member lineage), structure, methods. However, I wasnt seeking for it to become a debate, rather a individual's thought.


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## tshadowchaser (May 13, 2005)

taijiquan a series of movements ment to: improve mobility of the body, improve circulation of the bodys fluids and energy, a method of instructing the body in movements of self defence, a method of training the body to channel energy and maybe a method to reach states of mind connected to something higher


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## 47MartialMan (May 20, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> taijiquan a series of movements ment to:
> 
> *A*.) improve mobility of the body,
> *B*.) improve circulation of the bodys fluids and energy,
> ...


Hmmnnn
*A*.) Heard of-agree with
*B*.) Heard of-agree with-(physical energy-not chi)
*C*.) Heard of-agree with
*D*.) Heard of-(depends on what is meant by whay energy to channel)
*E*.) Nevered heard of


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