# Non-Inosanto or Doce Pares Escrima/Kali in Los Angeles?



## Crash14 (Apr 24, 2003)

Can anyone let me know where I can find some classes teaching Escrims/Kali/Arnis in the Los Angeles/Orange County area that is not based on the Inosanto/JKD or Doce Pares organizations?
Any help would be appreciated.


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## moromoro (Apr 24, 2003)

let me just say its great that you are looking for non commercial styles of the philippines......

i cant help about LA
but i also practice MoroMoro orabes heneral and Black eagle arnis Eskrima, I will be holding private lessons shortly but the problem is im here in Brisbane Australia.......

good luck with what you find
and let us know

thanks 

terry


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## Guro Harold (Apr 24, 2003)

Try using the FMA Instructor Database at:

http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/filframe.htm


Best regards,

Palusut


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## Master of Blades (Apr 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *let me just say its great that you are looking for non commercial styles of the philippines......
> *




Moromoro,
                   Do you feel that the Non-commercial styles are better then the commercial ones? Or are you just happy to see the un-commercial ones being used :asian:


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## moromoro (Apr 24, 2003)

its just great to see other styles getting their exposure
because there is no one best style like the others like to believe


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## Master of Blades (Apr 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *its just great to see other styles getting their exposure
> because there is no one best style like the others like to believe *



Who are these people and what exactly do they believe?  :asian:


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## bart (May 1, 2003)

Hey,

I want to point out that not all Doce Pares is the same. Some is not very commercial at all. Doce Pares is an organization more than a style. Was there a Doce Pares incident or something that soured you on the whole deal?


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## moromoro (May 1, 2003)

u talking to me?


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## Master of Blades (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *u talking to me? *




Yup, I wouldnt mind you answering my question as well :asian:


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## bart (May 1, 2003)

> u talking to me?



I was talking about the original post, but I am interested in who these "others" are that you were talking about.


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## thekuntawman (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Moromoro,
> Do you feel that the Non-commercial styles are better then the commercial ones? Or are you just happy to see the un-commercial ones being used :asian: *



well just my opinion, it would be nice to see the small guys get more attention, because we will see more of a specialty being taught, than many of the commercialize styles, that have a little of everything.

many of the old men back home have a few techniques that they specialized in, and they developed it to a very high level, because they didnt spend time on lots of other techniques. if you ever get to meet them, you will be surprised what you can learn about one technique! in many of the commercialized styles, you will get a little of this, a little of that, but mostly a collection of a lot of various techniques. after a while, everybody is doing the same thing. for example, look at dumug. 20 years ago, the only person really talking about it was daniel inosanto. today, every major group has there own style of "dumog".

most people have only an appreciation for what is the popular styles or teachers. if you are new, and you get lots of attention in the magazines and the internet, there is your credibilty, and everybody will swear that your style is "one of the best/most effective/deadliest/etc." but the little known about guy, is one of the best teachers you can go to, instead of the most popular.

and about doce pares eskrima, there are different doce pares groups, and they all have their specialties. you cannot lump them all together. i have some friends who study different styles, and diony canete's style is the most scientific and researched style. but even under his organization you will find good fighters and bad ones, just like any other group. the name somebody carrys does not speak for any one teachers skill or knowldge.


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## moromoro (May 2, 2003)

alot of what the kuntawman said is exactly true....

.





> most people have only an appreciation for what is the popular styles or teachers.



yes dont be fooled by the case that if it is the most commercialised it is the best, this is dead wrong,  there are plenty guys back home (true GM's in every sense of the word) who we could all learn plenty from, but we never hear of them in the west.

just in my opinion i think focus will shift towards a lot of the older eskrima  schools many of which where well and truly around before the doce pares society started up, then finally these eskrima styles will get their time to show the world thier techniques......


thanks

terry


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## bart (May 2, 2003)

> yes dont be fooled by the case that if it is the most commercialised it is the best



Non-commercial doesn't always mean better. In some instances, teachers that aren't commercial aren't very good or have personality problems that interfere with being good.  They may be non commercial because nobody would pay for what they taught. 

Many non-commercial are also very good and don't want to accept money for some ethical or personal reason.  Or due to the restrictions of culture would not run it as a business.

Some commercial teachers are very good and others are very bad and many are just so so. 

Quality all depends on the teacher. 

Eskrima is _worth_ money, but it's not _about_ money. I charge for lessons and I pay for my own training, because it's _worth_ something. 

In the West we live in a highly mobile society. We often live many miles from where we train and from our training partners and we have very few deeply personal relationships. One way that we can demonstrate that we feel that something is important is by paying for it. That is part of western culture, which is the medium in which I at least live. 



> just in my opinion i think focus will shift towards a lot of the older eskrima schools many of which where well and truly around before the doce pares society started up, then finally these eskrima styles will get their time to show the world thier techniques......



There is no question that there was valid, viable Eskrima around before Doce Pares formed in the 30's. The Labangon Fencing Club that became Doce Pares was a gym that arnis practitioners could go to and talk shop, trade techniques, and test themselves against each other. There are a lot of systems around that were formed in that period, and there are a lot including Moro Moro Orabes Heneral, Balintawak, Lapunti, etc, that came around afterward. 

All eskrima has in common that their roots extend beyond the 1930's into the past. The term master didn't come into common use in the non-japanese martial arts until the '50's. The same goes with the term Grandmaster which made it into common usage in the '70's. Also the idea of style came to the philippines with Judo. You could argue that point about the Chinese arts, but they kept their system within their own community so it was not available to the mainstream. Before the idea of different styles became popular, Arnis was like boxing. People boxed, but they didn't have a name for their method as much as the drills they used. 

So as for older styles, I don't know if that could happen, because I don't think that back before the 1930's they were officially styles, they were just known as Arnis or Eskrima and that it came from some guy from a particular area of town or barrio. 

For example, Andres Bonifacio, Jose Rizal, and Emilio Aguinaldo were all known practitioners of Arnis de Mano, but what style? Nobody knows because there were no officially named styles then. It seems funny to me that some people can name what style Lapu Lapu did, but have no idea about these national heroes, one of whom, Aguinaldo, lived well into the 20th century and could have been asked. It certainly seems to insinuate that any style references, before the 20th century at least, may have a touch of fiction.  



> Can anyone let me know where I can find some classes teaching Escrims/Kali/Arnis in the Los Angeles/Orange County area that is not based on the Inosanto/JKD or Doce Pares organizations?
> Any help would be appreciated.




Anyway, regarding the original post: I live in Los Angeles, and I wanted to know if there was something that soured Crash14 on Doce Pares. There is a great variation in the Doce Pares practitioners here. We are all very different on some things.  I had hoped to heal some of the misgivings that he might have if he had a bad experience.


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## moromoro (May 3, 2003)

> Before the idea of different styles became popular, Arnis was like boxing. People boxed, but they didn't have a name for their method as much as the drills they used.



true





> So as for older styles, I don't know if that could happen, because I don't think that back before the 1930's they were officially styles, they were just known as Arnis or Eskrima and that it came from some guy from a particular area of town or barrio.



even the doce pares of the 30's could not be called a style just simply an organisation.....

yes there where many family methods and plenty of great eskrimadors prior to the 1930's

a few of them where
the savedras, islao romo, oman, mariano navarro, bantong, olipio navarro and many others,
mariano navarro's friend and sparring partner bantong was known to have broken one of savedras arms in a match which was stopped after he had broken savedras arm.
so yes they where many great fighters but no one style justs methods........


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