# What Is A McDojo?



## MJS (Sep 27, 2013)

In another thread, Dan and I were having a discussion about the term McDojo.  This was sparked from a discussion of a school and their testing methods.  Rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start this thread, so we could find out what people consider a McDojo.


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## Balrog (Sep 27, 2013)

To me, a McDojo uses high pressure, used-car sales tactics.  In addition, their belt promotions are based on whether the check for the testing fee clears the bank, rather than whether or not the student can actually perform the material.


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## lklawson (Sep 27, 2013)

There's a lot of definitions for "McDojo."  I have a pretty good one in the rec.martial-arts Newbies Guide to Martial Arts (variously posted here on the forum).

However, all of various definitions boil down to this truth: Their goal is separating the student from his money, most often by flimflamming him into believing he is learning actual martial skills when he is not.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## elder999 (Sep 27, 2013)

Back in the day, during the first "kung-fu" craze, there were lots of attempts at franchising martial arts schools-especially back east. With no offense towards anyone, anything descended from Frederick Villare, Jerome Mackey (??!!), or the Tracy's, qualifies under the original definition of "McDojo," which not only employs high-pressure sales tactics and long-term contracts, but works like a multi-level marketing scheme where students rapidly become teachers and school "owners" themselves in order to expand profits.


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## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2013)

If the emphasis is on the business rather than the teaching side -- it's a McDojo.  This doesn't mean every commercial training hall is one, or that being one is all bad.  But I go to a mechanic whose emphasis is on fixing cars right, not ripping people off.  (Interestingly enough, they ain't hurting for money or business...)

But it's kind of an unfair label.  Mcdonalds has never claimed to be more than what they are: inexpensive, acceptable & consistent food, with a pretty much turn key process to make a decent profit doing it.  Nobody's claiming a Big Mac is the epitome of fine dining, or that a visit to Mcdonalds is a meal experience comparable to The Inn at Little Washington.  (Of course, you ain't going to pay nearly as much, either...)  Unfortunately, the worst of the Mcdojos don't even provide that consistent basic level of quality; they're about nothing but getting the contracts signed and collecting testing fees, selling (overpriced) equipment and uniforms...


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 27, 2013)

Any training methods or sales tactics your Karate school does not employ must be a Mc Dojo.


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## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2013)

(By the way...  If anyone would care to arrange to host me for a seminar held at the The Inn, meals included, who am I to stop them?  Maybe a good place for the next Meet & Greet?  LOL)


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 27, 2013)

A McDojo is a nebulous thing. Much like the US Supreme Courts Potter Stewarts opinion on pornography - "I can't really define it, but I know it when I see it".

In general, I'd say all McDojos do share some traits.

Baby Black Belts.
Belts awarded by daycare programs.
Mandatory testing, or testing students who aren't going to pass.
Isolationism - discouraging students from training or visiting outside schools.
"If you can afford it, we will award it" - If your check passes the bank test, you pass the belt test.
Any school or system that claims to have all the answers.
Any school or system that doesn't spar because it's "too dangerous".
Schools with long term contracts.
Schools that require you to buy all gear only from them.
Schools with a lot of hidden costs.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 28, 2013)

Basically any school where the amount of money that is charged is more important than the quality of instruction as in the following;

Where they promote at the drop of a hat - any hat.
The majority of the students are not corrected on bad technique and have poor skills.
The instructors are poorly qualified and skilled and don't much care about teaching properly.
They insist on contracts that you have to pay even if you do not train.
The fees are excessive and there are many of them (including hidden fees).


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 28, 2013)

Oohhh...I'd like to play :lol2:



Five year old black belts running around.
Nine year old 3rd Dans running around.
The instructor has eighteen 10th Dans and certificates from twenty halls of fame.
You can earn a BB in one year or less, order now, operators are standing by.
There are 'special' testings where you can skip up to six Dan grades as long as you pay for the highest three.  The test includes one form and one minute of sparring.
The school invites a different art to teach a one weekend seminar.  Then you can test for a BB in that art after just the two days of training.  No previous experience required in this new art beyond the two days of training but the check MUST clear.
Any school that teaches sport but advertises self defense.
Any school that insists their art is 2000 years old when in fact it is around 60 years old.
Any school where the $ comes first and the students well being comes in somewhere after dead last.

Okay, I feel much better now.


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## EddieCyrax (Sep 28, 2013)

elder999 said:


> Back in the day, during the first "kung-fu" craze, there were lots of attempts at franchising martial arts schools-especially back east. With no offense towards anyone, anything descended from Frederick Villare, Jerome Mackey (??!!), or the Tracy's, qualifies under the original definition of "McDojo," which not only employs high-pressure sales tactics and long-term contracts, but works like a multi-level marketing scheme where students rapidly become teachers and school "owners" themselves in order to expand profits.




I agree these lineages have a troubled history, but I train under one of these that has none of the things you describe.

Not offended...just saying


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## lklawson (Sep 28, 2013)

In general I agree, but these are generalities.  There might be some exceptions.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Oohhh...I'd like to play :lol2:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I keep hearing of these.  Read of some in newspapers.  Never actually seen any.


 





> The instructor has eighteen 10th Dans and certificates from twenty halls of fame.


Yeah, that's a flag alright.  Never actually seen any.  I've met one or two who claimed 10th Dan because they created their own new system.  I'm suspicious of any "new system" as a general rule.  Might be good.  Might not.  But anyone who promotes themselves to 10th is very very suspect.



> The school invites a different art to teach a one weekend seminar.  Then you can test for a BB in that art after just the two days of training.  No previous experience required in this new art beyond the two days of training but the check MUST clear.



It's not unheard of for a school to invite some other system to do a seminar.  Never seen one to offer a BB in the seminar art.  I've seen "Certificates of Participation" however.




> Any school that teaches sport but advertises self defense.



Judo & BJJ have both been shown to be effective for SD.




> [*]Any school that insists their art is 2000 years old when in fact it is around 60 years old.


Like TKD or Hwrang Do?




> [*]Any school where the $ comes first and the students well being comes in somewhere after dead last.


I think this one is the key.


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## jasonbrinn (Sep 28, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Judo & BJJ have both been shown to be effective for SD.
> [/LIST]



So have archery and driving but they aren't taught as self defense nor advertised as such (LOL).


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## lklawson (Sep 28, 2013)

jasonbrinn said:


> So have archery and driving but they aren't taught as self defense nor advertised as such (LOL).


Archery: Yes it is.  You just have to know the right people.

Driving: Never heard of driving being used as SD.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 28, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Driving: Never heard of driving being used as SD.



Someone tries to run you off the road you can use defensive driving to prevent it.


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## lklawson (Sep 29, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Someone tries to run you off the road you can use defensive driving to prevent it.


I think that equating Defensive Driving with "martial" is a bit of a stretch.  

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 29, 2013)

lklawson said:


> I keep hearing of these.  Read of some in newspapers.  Never actually seen any.



Hang around in the TKD or HKD section and you'll see many examples of each.  We had a conversation on a 9yr old 3rd Dan in Hapkido just a few months ago as the most recent example.



> Yeah, that's a flag alright.  Never actually seen any.  I've met one or  two who claimed 10th Dan because they created their own new system.  I'm  suspicious of any "new system" as a general rule.  Might be good.   Might not.  But anyone who promotes themselves to 10th is very very  suspect.



I won't mention names, but I've seen a plethora of them.  



> It's not unheard of for a school to invite some other system to do a  seminar.  Never seen one to offer a BB in the seminar art.  I've seen  "Certificates of Participation" however.



I posted this information, including the flyer in the TKD section either last year or earlier this year.  TKD school having a Korean Hapkido 'GM' come in to teach a one weekend seminar.  BB was available at the end of the weekend and the ONLY requirement was a TKD BB.  And in fact, it wasn't necessarily a first Dan in HKD either, it was based on the TKD Dan.  So perhaps if you were a TKD 5th Dan you could maybe get a HKD 3rd Dan after two days of training.  Pretty good deal for those looking for wall candy.  Of course there was a fee associated with the seminar and the test.



> Judo & BJJ have both been shown to be effective for SD.



Elements of judo and BJJ 'can' be effective for SD.  But the methodology generally used to teach both isn't the most viable for SD.  As I mentioned in another thread, I know Royce Gracie.  He taught at SEPSI where I've taught academies.  He use to teach BJJ their to Officers and had to GREATLY modify what he taught and the method in which it was taught to have it viable for Officers.  As taught in a sport venue, not only is it less than optimal it can be extremely detrimental.  

Doesn't make either a bad sport art, but it needs to be taught with a SD methodology and the sporting elements removed entirely.


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## Merline (Sep 29, 2013)

Informative thread on Mcdojo and like to add Mcdojo is a term used to describe any martial arts school which takes money and turns out many student promotions of low or no quality.


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Hang around in the TKD or HKD section and you'll see many examples of each.  We had a conversation on a 9yr old 3rd Dan in Hapkido just a few months ago as the most recent example.


Like I wrote, I read about them a lot but I've never actually met one.  I suspect that they're far less common than the impression is.  There's so much incredulity over the ones that exist that they get magnified in our consciousness, much like the Road Rage incidents have been.



> I posted this information, including the flyer in the TKD section either last year or earlier this year.  TKD school having a Korean Hapkido 'GM' come in to teach a one weekend seminar.  BB was available at the end of the weekend and the ONLY requirement was a TKD BB.  And in fact, it wasn't necessarily a first Dan in HKD either, it was based on the TKD Dan.  So perhaps if you were a TKD 5th Dan you could maybe get a HKD 3rd Dan after two days of training.  Pretty good deal for those looking for wall candy.  Of course there was a fee associated with the seminar and the test.


Like I wrote, I haven't personally seen it.  I suspect that, this too, is mercifully the exception rather than the rule.



> Elements of judo and BJJ 'can' be effective for SD.  But the methodology generally used to teach both isn't the most viable for SD.  As I mentioned in another thread, I know Royce Gracie.  He taught at SEPSI where I've taught academies.  He use to teach BJJ their to Officers and had to GREATLY modify what he taught and the method in which it was taught to have it viable for Officers.  As taught in a sport venue, not only is it less than optimal it can be extremely detrimental.


Without going into the "Sport Fighter" argument yet again, let's just say that I've seen "Sport Fighters" do exceptionally well in real fights and I've seen "Traditional" martial artists do less well, with a side helping of "Cops arrest and detain, not 'fight' per se; their goals, and therefore training, are required to be different than non-LEO SD."  We'll leave it go there.



> Doesn't make either a bad sport art, but it needs to be taught with a SD methodology and the sporting elements removed entirely.


I think your definition of Self Defense is too broad if you're likening it to LEO needs.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

MJS said:


> In another thread, Dan and I were having a discussion about the term McDojo.  This was sparked from a discussion of a school and their testing methods.  Rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start this thread, so we could find out what people consider a McDojo.


I want to preface my response by saying that there are plenty of lousy schools that aren't McDojos.  They're just lousy schools.

A McDojo is a school that has plugged into a system that has developed over the past three decades.  This system is designed to maximize the profitability of the school.  If you look at large, commercial schools, and some not so large schools, you'll see the pattern.  Similar times in grade for black belt (16-24 mos), a huge emphasis on the black belt, the black belt being treated as a graduation of sorts, and a system of testing fees that substantially increase the annual tuition.  Finally, a huge emphasis on kids, with very young child black belts being normative and generally having a* lot *of colored belts between white and black.

In addition, you have side orders: Black belt clubs, masters clubs, leadership clubs, demo teams and competion teams, all of which cost extra to join and which usually come with a prize (uniform, patch, special belt, etc.).  School branded equipment often serves as a side order as well, though usually not at a competitive price, which is why some McDojos require students to buy their equipment.  After school programs and summer camps are also a vital part of this model, though again, because profit is the focus, these programs lack any licensing an lack certified or appropriately trained personnel that are normally found in daycare centers and preschool.

After black belt, there are generally weapons, but the weapons curriculum is designed to keep students interested rather than to actually give meaningful instruction in the weapons in question.  They may learn raw basics (how to hold and how to swing in a few predetermined patterns and maybe a couple of blocks), but once they learn these raw basics, they are quickly hustled onto the next, and likely less useful, weapon.  Of note, many of the McDojo schools teach arts that don't traditionally include these weapons, but which savvy school owners have learned are exciting to young students.

These schools also all have a rather similar look and similar business practices.  Lengthy contracts (one year or more), high end pricing, requirements of bank drafting monthly dues through a billing company, and an excessive number of colored belts, often with ascending fees, and pretty much guaranteed passage upon payment of said fees.

Curriculum at these schools is geared towards keeping you paying.  A little is dribbled out with each belt and you learn it well enough to pass the test.  You then move onto the next batch of material, learn it well enough to pass the test, promote, repeat process.  The self defense is sometimes fantastical, but more often it is simply geared towards competitions, though the school itself may not be particularly competitive.

The teaching at these schools is usually mediocre, though there are some with stellar teachers.  While a McDojo can be a good school, the focus on profitablility places teaching in the back seat, so the level of instruction falls to the norm of mediocrity.  The length of the contracts mean that there is a fuse on fee collection, so students are be passed along through the belt ranks because that final black belt test is often hundreds of dollars and they need to get those fees prior to the contract expiration.  

Finally, the tests are filled with physical busy-work; calisthenics, running through warm up exercises, and essentially doing things that do nothing to show the quality of the training.  The students are then praised for endurance, but a careful examination of their overal level of quality reveals that it is usually (though there are exceptions) not where it should be.

Again, the above designates a McDojo.  A school can be "traditional" and have an instructor with tons of legitimate accolades and still be a lousy school.  Not every champion is a teacher and low prices are no more a guarantor of quality than expensive prices are.

Additionally, a McDojo who's owner hasn't forgotten why (s)he teaches martial arts can sometimes offer a very good school that is also profitable, and thus not as likely to close when times are lean, but such schools are definitely the exception to the rule.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Elements of judo and BJJ 'can' be effective for SD.  But the methodology generally used to teach both isn't the most viable for SD.  As I mentioned in another thread, I know Royce Gracie.  He taught at SEPSI where I've taught academies.  He use to teach BJJ their to Officers and had to GREATLY modify what he taught and the method in which it was taught to have it viable for Officers.  As taught in a sport venue, not only is it less than optimal it can be extremely detrimental.
> 
> Doesn't make either a bad sport art, but it needs to be taught with a SD methodology and the sporting elements removed entirely.


Agreed.  While there is some cross over between fight sport and SD, there are a lot of differences.  If the curriculum's applications are geared towards tournament fighting, they really shouldn't call it a self defense class.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Like I wrote, I read about them a lot but I've never actually met one.  I suspect that they're far less common than the impression is.  There's so much incredulity over the ones that exist that they get magnified in our consciousness, much like the Road Rage incidents have been.



There are tons of them in my area.  To be fair, they generally are targeting customers who are looking for things outside of SD.  The demographic is kids, parents looking for an activity to do with their kids, people looking to get fit, and adults who want an active social activity.  These things aren't bad in and of themselves, but they differ from what most of us feel that an MA school should be.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> A McDojo is a nebulous thing. Much like the US Supreme Courts Potter Stewarts opinion on pornography - "I can't really define it, but I know it when I see it".
> 
> In general, I'd say all McDojos do share some traits.
> 
> ...


I associate any and all of these things with lousy schools in general.  Some lousy schools are run by frauds who are not concerned with money but with maintaining their own ego and image as a "master" of some kind.  As long as they have followers who will prop them up and learn at their feet, they're happy.  Their school is lousy.  It isn't a McDojo, but it's still a lousy school.

These places usually do the issolationism, claim to have all the answers, and don't spar because it's too dangerous.  They're also the ones that build the mystique of secret techniques and essoteric non-physical techniques, such as no touch knock out techniques.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> After black belt, there are generally weapons, but the weapons curriculum is designed to keep students interested rather than to actually give meaningful instruction in the weapons in question.  They may learn raw basics (how to hold and how to swing in a few predetermined patterns and maybe a couple of blocks), but once they learn these raw basics, they are quickly hustled onto the next, and likely less useful, weapon.  Of note, many of the McDojo schools teach arts that don't traditionally include these weapons, but which savvy school owners have learned are exciting to young students.



When I first started at my school I asked my instructor "do we learn weapons" to which he replied "you must first learn to use your body as a weapon first", 26 years later I am still doing that.


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I want to preface my response by saying that there are plenty of lousy schools that aren't McDojos.  They're just lousy schools.
> [...]
> Again, the above designates a McDojo.  A school can be "traditional" and have an instructor with tons of legitimate accolades and still be a lousy school.  Not every champion is a teacher and low prices are no more a guarantor of quality than expensive prices are.


Fair points.



> Additionally, a McDojo who's owner hasn't forgotten why (s)he teaches martial arts can sometimes offer a very good school that is also profitable, and thus not as likely to close when times are lean, but such schools are definitely the exception to the rule.


How is that a McDojo?  That's just a successful school.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Fair points.
> 
> How is that a McDojo?  That's just a successful school.
> 
> ...


I view "McDojo" as a business model.  It isn't a model that I care for, but the elements that make the the model successful (from a business standpoint) are, like McDonalds, reproduced over a large number of schools.  

The elements that make McDonalds successful are actually not tied to the quality of its food, be it good or bad, but to the presentation and to the ability to reproduce that presentation.  McDonalds' food is consistent from restaurant to restaurant.  Other chains have copied McDonalds formula; Burger King, Silver Diner, Bob Evans, Ruby Tuesdays, TGI Fridays, and Taco Bell to name a few.  These restaurants are not all in the same price point and the expected quality of the food is different, but what makes them successful is a style and presentation that is consistent within the type of restaurant they run.  

Ruby's, Fridays, Red Robin, Chilis, and Applebees are all similarly priced, have similar menues, and each of these chains maintains a similar appearance; every Applebees looks like Applebees.  But they are not only consistent within their own chain, they're consistent with each other.  Family burger/American style pub restaurants all have a similar feel.  They may even have different menu focuses; there are chains such as Joe's Crab Shack, which have all the same elements, but focus on a different type of meal, and are similarly successful.  

Similarly, commerical schools utilize a similar formula.  McDojo.  They use the same terms, the same style of studio (big, bright, clean studios located in retail space with similarly colored mats and using pre-made banners for their various programs), and a similar belt/promotion structure.  They all focus on a black belt, they all have strong kids programs for both regular training, after school, and summer camp, and they all have similar clubs and programs.  All of them use automatic bank drafting through outside billing companies and one to five year contracts with penalties for early withdrawal from the program.

Notice that I never mention the quality of the teaching.  This model is designed to run a successful MA* themed *business, which may or may not offer decent quality MA.

Like any other style of business, it ultimately comes down to (unsurprisingly) the individual school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> When I first started at my school I asked my instructor "do we learn weapons" to which he replied "you must first learn to use your body as a weapon first", 26 years later I am still doing that.


You can spend a lifetime in a weaponless art and plumb its depths and never reach the bottom.  But you can do the same with a weapon art, or an art that has weapons as a traditional part of it.

It isn't the learning of weapons that raises the flag, but rather the teaching of weapons in a traditionally weaponless art and more to the point, whether you're actually learning a weapon or just an activity to keep you interested.

Not all arts traditionally incorporate weapons.  Taekwondo, both KKW and Chang Hon (to my knowledge) do not include weapons in the curriculm.  Aikido, Hapkido, some Japanese and Okinawan karate ryu, Japanese bujutsu, Ninjutsu, Savate, and several Chinese arts do include them traditionally.

Grafting them onto a weaponless art isn't necessarily bad, but I do consider it a red flag.  If the weapons training is meaningful and worthwhile, flag removed.  If it's just an activity, flag remains.


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I view "McDojo" as a business model.  It isn't a model that I care for, but the elements that make the the model successful (from a business standpoint) are, like McDonalds, reproduced over a large number of schools.


Well, you can certainly choose to define in this way if you want, but if you do so, you will face confusion and difficulty communicating concepts with other martial artists for whom the term "McDojo" is synonymous with incompetent students.  Usually the point of discussion is why/how these students are incompetent.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Aikido, Hapkido [...] do include them traditionally.


Both are modern.  Not sure it'd be fair to say whether or not weapons were "traditionally" included in them or not.



> Savate [does] include them traditionally.


Well, boy, THERE'S a kettle of fish!  How do you define Savate?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Both are modern.  Not sure it'd be fair to say whether or not weapons were "traditionally" included in them or not.


Aikido and hapkido have had the inclusion of specific weapons for most of their existence.  Hapkido traditionally teaches the use of the cane, the danbong (short stick), and frequently the bo and the belt and sometimes the sword. 

 Aikido has had aiki-jo and aiki-ken for most or all of it's existence so far as I know.  If not for that long, long enough that nobody raises an eyebrow at aikido schools that teach them.

When I say traditionally, I mean just that.  Traditional doesn't imply ancient; rock and roll, big band, Jazz and blues are all technically modern but there are elements that are traditionally a part of them.



lklawson said:


> Well, boy, THERE'S a kettle of fish!  How do you define Savate?


I should probably have left that one out, as my famiarity is only passing at best.  I understand that Savate has a cane fencing element to it, which is why I included it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Well, you can certainly choose to define in this way if you want, but if you do so, you will face confusion and difficulty communicating concepts with other martial artists for whom the term "McDojo" is synonymous with incompetent students.  Usually the point of discussion is why/how these students are incompetent.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Based on how I actually use the term, incompetent students are the most likely result of the system due to the focus on profitability over quality.

As for how I use the term itself causing confusion, it shouldn't given that I don't throw the term around and on the occasions that I do use it, I define what I mean.  Since the word has no specific definition, different people use it differently.  Some use it as a synonym for any bad school.  I tend to associate it with certain practices, practices that generally result in things like lackluster black belts, kiddie black belts, and material of questionable merit, such as the previously discussed weapons curriculums.


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## terryl965 (Sep 30, 2013)

Well my opinion is Fast food martial arts, they cannot execute proper techs and get a BB within a year or so.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> You can spend a lifetime in a weaponless art and plumb its depths and never reach the bottom.  But you can do the same with a weapon art, or an art that has weapons as a traditional part of it.
> 
> It isn't the learning of weapons that raises the flag, but rather the teaching of weapons in a traditionally weaponless art and more to the point, whether you're actually learning a weapon or just an activity to keep you interested.
> 
> ...



Sometimes if someone asks me if we teach weapons I reply, "yes we do, we teach the knife (hand strike), axe (kick), hammer (fist), hook (kick), spear (finger thrust)". From a purely self defence perspective, I believe that if weapons are taught they should be something that resembles something that you would commonly encounter in the outside world.For example a bo staff could be a stick, a piece of pipe, a broom etc.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Based on how I actually use the term, incompetent students are the most likely result of the system due to the focus on profitability over quality.



Most likely yes but it can also be a product of just a poorly skilled and poorly qualified instructor who does not charge like a wounded bull but does not realize he is poorly skilled and unqualified.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> Most likely yes but it can also be a product of just a poorly skilled and poorly qualified instructor who does not charge like a wounded bull but does not realize he is poorly skilled and unqualified.



As I said earlier, there are lousy schools that aren't necesarilly McDojos.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> From a purely self defence perspective, I believe that if weapons are taught they should be something that resembles something that you would commonly encounter in the outside world.For example a bo staff could be a stick, a piece of pipe, a broom etc.


Most weapon arts have techniques that are at least functional with similarly sized implements.  However, there are peculiarities to using a cane or broomstick for self defense against either an unarmed opponent or an opponent with a knife or some other type of hand held weapon that are often not factors in the use of the original weapon.  

MA weapons such as a bo or jo have a lot more durability than a broom handle.  Many brooms now have flimsy aluminum or plasic shafts and are generally a more easliy handled diameter and lower weight than pipe.

Sword techniques can be retrofitted to broom handles, canes, and pipes as well, but swords are sharp, so you don't generally have to be concerned with someone grabbing the blade.  Canes and broomsicks are not sharp, so an unarmed opponent has more options to disarm you.

If the weapon is being taught as it was originally trained, such as in a ryu of kenjutsu, historical fencing, and Okinawan kobudo, it is beneficial, though it may not have immediate self defense application.

A serious XMA program is also beneficial, even if it lacks martial application.  So long as it isn't marketed as traditional or historical weapons training, it's fine.

If the weapon is grafted on as an activity or as part of some kind of black belt check list, or if it is used as a child's game (foam swords, for example), or if it is XMA being taught as samurai arts, then you have red flags being raised.


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I should probably have left that one out, as my famiarity is only passing at best.  I understand that Savate has a cane fencing element to it, which is why I included it.


It might or it might not, depending on which Maestro you query.  My experience is that more do include than don't but you never know who you'll bump into.    Some hold that canne and baton were nothing more than late-to-the-party addons and that Savate really is only boxe francaise.  Their evidence ranges from early Savate to even the name ("shoe").

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As for how I use the term itself causing confusion, it shouldn't given that I don't throw the term around and on the occasions that I do use it, I define what I mean.


Fair enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 30, 2013)

terryl965 said:


> Well my opinion is Fast food martial arts, they cannot execute proper techs and get a BB within a year or so.



But they get a happy meal with their black belt!


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## lklawson (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Most weapon arts have techniques that are at least functional with similarly sized implements.  However, there are peculiarities to using a cane or broomstick for self defense against either an unarmed opponent or an opponent with a knife or some other type of hand held weapon that are often not factors in the use of the original weapon.
> 
> MA weapons such as a bo or jo have a lot more durability than a broom handle.  Many brooms now have flimsy aluminum or plasic shafts and are generally a more easliy handled diameter and lower weight than pipe.
> 
> Sword techniques can be retrofitted to broom handles, canes, and pipes as well, but swords are sharp, so you don't generally have to be concerned with someone grabbing the blade.  Canes and broomsicks are not sharp, so an unarmed opponent has more options to disarm you.


I agree and have said so many times - improvised weapons, while being used as "weapons," are never as good at it as those designed and made as weapons.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 30, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sword techniques can be retrofitted to broom handles, canes, and pipes as well, but swords are sharp, so you don't generally have to be concerned with someone grabbing the blade.  Canes and broomsicks are not sharp, so an unarmed opponent has more options to disarm you.



I think many of us remember the broom stick sword fights we had when we were kids.


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## TKDTony2179 (Oct 1, 2013)

I will be back on Wed to add my thought on all of this.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 1, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> I think many of us remember the broom stick sword fights we had when we were kids.


My brother and I used to fence with old car antennae.


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## Zero (Oct 1, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My brother and I used to fence with old car antennae.



Yeah, we used to fence with ski poles when we went on Winter holidays, am glad (and kinda amazed) to this day no one copped it in the eye.
As an additional aside, we also used to play frisbie with dinner plates on these ski holidays (not sure why), my "best buddy" threw one as I had turned away one day and I copped it right in the forehead - dinner plate to forehead sure hurts (not sure if I ever quite recovered from that one...)


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 1, 2013)

Yeah, we did the sword fights with broom sticks, fencing with car antenae, but no ski poles, though we'd have used those if we'd had them.


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## Koshiki (Oct 1, 2013)

Soooooo...

If a school teaches excellent technique, has high training standards, and is full of knowledgeable and effective teachers and students, but uses rigorous salesmanship to extract large amounts of money, is it a McDojo, or a school with poor financial ethics?

Conversely, if a school has both cheap, lax training and a cheap, lax financial plan, is it a McDojo, or just a cheap school with cheap technique.

In other words, does a McDojo need to have both high costs and poor training, or can it just have one or the other?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 2, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Soooooo...
> 
> If a school teaches excellent technique, has high training standards, and is full of knowledgeable and effective teachers and students, but uses rigorous salesmanship to extract large amounts of money, is it a McDojo, or a school with poor financial ethics?
> 
> ...


The answer to that really depends on how one is using the term.  Even though Outback Steakhouse, TGI Fridays, Applebees, Chili's, Silver Diner, and Olive Garden all use marketing and presentation ideas based on the McDonald's formula, nobody calls them McRestaurants.  

Generally, McDojo is a pejorative and gets applied to schools that provide a quality of training that would be on the McNuggets end of the scale rather than on the Ruth's Chris  Steakhouse end of the scale.

What you describe is what I would call a well run school with an owner that has business savvy and charges a premium for premium services.  Having good salesmanship isn't a bad thing, and so long as it isn't done unethically, I'm fine with it.  

Where people take issue with McDojo type schools is that in while they charge a premium, the quality of what you pay for is anything but.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2013)

Sorry folks, had some family things to deal with, thus my lack of activity in this thread.  Anyways, looks like a lot of great replies.  I'll have to sift thru and comment, but I'll toss in my .02 as to what I feel makes a McDojo.

young kids (under the age of 15) wearing a black belt.

young kids with a 2nd, 3rd, 4th degree black belt.

a head inst. with multiple high ranks.  Sorry, I just can't see how people can claim upwards of 4+ high ranking dan grades.  A low level BB in a few arts, sure I can see that, but 6th, 7th, 8th dan in 4+ arts...unless you do nothing but train, day in/day out, I don't buy it...and even then, I'd still question it.

Passing people (ie handing out rank) for the sake of keeping people happy and keeping students.  That tells me that the $$ is more important than the overall quality of your student body.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Additionally, a McDojo who's owner hasn't forgotten why (s)he teaches martial arts can sometimes offer a very good school that is also profitable, and thus not as likely to close when times are lean, but such schools are definitely the exception to the rule.





lklawson said:


> How is that a McDojo?  That's just a successful school.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



I can agree with this to a point...sure, it is a successful school, but...if the $$ is more important than the students and how they perform, how well they know the material, etc, then I'd say it'd be a Mcdojo.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Soooooo...
> 
> If a school teaches excellent technique, has high training standards, and is full of knowledgeable and effective teachers and students, but uses rigorous salesmanship to extract large amounts of money, is it a McDojo, or a school with poor financial ethics?
> 
> ...



Personally, I can't stand high pressure tactics.  Sure, I understand that when you're in a sales type of business, making that sale is key.  But, once again, when you're pushing the buyer into something they don't want, that's not right.  For example...my wife and I have purchased 3 vehicles, over time, from the same car dealership.  I have a particular salesman that I deal with.  Not once, during any of those 3 sales, have we ever been pressured...and this man has received numerous awards from the dealership, for his excellent work.  

Word of mouth is the best seller IMO.  I mean think about it...if the standards are that high, why does high pressure sales tactics have to be used?


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## seasoned (Oct 2, 2013)

[h=2]Re: What Is A McDojo? [/h]A place to drop the kids off at while mom or dad take care of the important things, "shopping, hairdresser, movies, local gym to get in shape".


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## Koshiki (Oct 2, 2013)

MJS said:


> Passing people (ie handing out rank) for the sake of keeping people happy and keeping students.  That tells me that the $$ is more important than the overall quality of your student body.



Generally, I agree with that. For anyone older than a young child, No, absolutely not acceptable. For anyone above a very low, intro level rank, No, absolutely not acceptable.

In my system, we have had kids who reaaaally want to progress, and have taken classes for a year or more and are still the only one with a plain ol' white belt, while some of their most talented or hardest training friends are already wearing a Yellow Belt. They get discouraged, they get frustrated, they feel like they are hopeless and they want to quit. Obviously, if they don't know and can't perform the required material, they shouldn't get a rank. But if they were sedentary, parked-in-front-of-the-TV kids until they got here, and they're trying but just can't catch up yet? I can see the value of giving them that first kid-rank yellow stripe, with a firm reminder that they were promoted for TRYING, and that they will NOT be promoted again until they reach an acceptable level.

Whenever a situation like this arises, there is generally lively debate, post-test, pre-promotion, between those who fear the kid will disappear and want to get him/her to keep trying, and those who are hard-line against sub-par promotions at any level. So yeah, don't give a kid a green belt to keep him happy, and don't charity promote ANYONE who's at all into double-digit ages, and don't get into the habit of promoting kids to keep them entertained. But in rare cases, I'd rather see a kid with a rank they don't quite live up to grow into it and possibly become a strong student of the martial arts, then see them drop it and not look back, even if it does preserve the complete purity of the ranking system.

Then again, I'd rather get rid of the ranking system entirely, and eliminate any danger of people training for coloured fabric rather than knowledge.


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## Steve (Oct 2, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Soooooo...
> 
> If a school teaches excellent technique, has high training standards, and is full of knowledgeable and effective teachers and students, but uses rigorous salesmanship to extract large amounts of money, is it a McDojo, or a school with poor financial ethics?


It is a mcdojo.  





> Conversely, if a school has both cheap, lax training and a cheap, lax financial plan, is it a McDojo, or just a cheap school with cheap technique.


I'd call this one "out of business," at least, out of business soon.





> In other words, does a McDojo need to have both high costs and poor training, or can it just have one or the other?


High cost is one indicator of a McDojo, but the quality of the training is, IMO, less important than the emphasis on some particular sales techniques to generate profits.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 2, 2013)

seasoned said:


> *Re: What Is A McDojo? *
> 
> A place to drop the kids off at while mom or dad take care of the important things, "shopping, hairdresser, movies, local gym to get in shape".



Which is how many of them stay in business.  Afterschool programs are lucrative.


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## Grenadier (Oct 2, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Soooooo...
> 
> If a school teaches excellent technique, has high training standards, and is full of knowledgeable and effective teachers and students, but uses rigorous salesmanship to extract large amounts of money, is it a McDojo, or a school with poor financial ethics?



Using that criteria to define a "McDojo" seems to be off the mark.  

If that school gives high quality education when it comes to martial arts, then I see nothing wrong with the owner charging what the market can bear.  If his students are willing to pay the prices, then his students are of the belief that they're getting their money's worth, even if it is a high price, and even if there's another school in the area that gives just as good of an education at a lower price.  

If you think about it this way, someone who lives in the state of Massachusetts, who goes to Harvard University, is going to pay 50,000+ a year in tuition, room and board.  That's quite a hefty sum, considering that University of Massachusetts, being a state school, will cost that same Massachusetts resident a lot less money.  

For that matter, if I were a betting man, I'd wager dollars to dimes, that someone who goes to U-Mass can get just as good of an education if he takes his schooling seriously.  

Still, if you ask the people who decided to go to Harvard, instead of a state school, if it's worth paying the money, I can pretty much guarantee you that the overwhelming majority will give you a resounding "yes" answer.  Maybe they have a bit of an inflated view of the place, or perhaps they don't know that you can get just as good of an education elsewhere, but to those people who go to Harvard, they'll certainly perceive a high value on what they're getting. 

I don't think that anyone here would call Harvard University a "McCollege..."


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## lklawson (Oct 2, 2013)

Grenadier said:


> I don't think that anyone here would call Harvard University a "McCollege..."


No.  You'd call it a McUniversity.  

<ducking>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Generally, I agree with that. For anyone older than a young child, No, absolutely not acceptable. For anyone above a very low, intro level rank, No, absolutely not acceptable.
> 
> In my system, we have had kids who reaaaally want to progress, and have taken classes for a year or more and are still the only one with a plain ol' white belt, while some of their most talented or hardest training friends are already wearing a Yellow Belt. They get discouraged, they get frustrated, they feel like they are hopeless and they want to quit. Obviously, if they don't know and can't perform the required material, they shouldn't get a rank. But if they were sedentary, parked-in-front-of-the-TV kids until they got here, and they're trying but just can't catch up yet? I can see the value of giving them that first kid-rank yellow stripe, with a firm reminder that they were promoted for TRYING, and that they will NOT be promoted again until they reach an acceptable level.
> 
> ...



In your opinion, by doing what you suggest with the kids, do you feel that that would solve the problem, or just satisfy it for the time being and potentially have the same issue come up again, at a later time?  

As for doing away with rank...while seeing some sort of progress is nice, I'd agree with that.


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## Cirdan (Oct 3, 2013)

To me a McDojo is a place that hands out rank for a fee and has pretty lax classes so students are not driven away. Typically also a bit on the flashy side, good with advertising and may function as a support group for those addicted to MA myths like throwing chiballs. Haddokkenn!


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## Zero (Oct 3, 2013)

lklawson said:


> No.  You'd call it a McUniversity.


Ouch, I like it.


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## Zero (Oct 3, 2013)

Zack Cart said:


> Then again, I'd rather get rid of the ranking system entirely, and eliminate any danger of people training for coloured fabric rather than knowledge.


There's a lot to be agreed with in that.


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## lklawson (Oct 3, 2013)

Zero said:


> Zack Cart said:
> 
> 
> > Then again, I'd rather get rid of  the ranking system entirely, and eliminate any danger of people training  for coloured fabric rather than knowledge.
> ...


I wrote this mini-article some time back:
http://cbd.atspace.com/articles/ranking/ranking.html


*Advantages and Disadvantages of a Ranking System*

The decision to go to a grading/belt-ranking/whatever system is a balance between the advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest advantages of a belt / grading system are:
​1)  Allows the instructor (particularly visiting instructors) to instantly  know the student's minimum capabilities and adjust the instruction  accordingly.

2) Assists the student in tracking his  personal advancement and gives him a clear understanding of what he must  learn or improve to continue advancement
2a) [subset of 2 I suppose] Gives the student a valuable tool in setting and meeting personal goals

3) Is "main stream" and accepted, even EXPECTED by potential students, thus raising credibility in the community.​
The biggest _DIS_advantages of a belt /  grading system are:
​1) Has limited meaning outside of the training system or in some other martial system.
1a) Not usually transferable to another martial system.

2) Exposes the student to vulnerabilities of egotism ("I'm a Black Belt and I can kick your butt!").

3)  Generates risk of "next belt" syndrome whereby the student focuses too  heavily on simply attaining rank and not on true practice and  understanding.

4) Exposes school to the risk of "McDojo"  syndrome whereby the school or instructor "sells" rankings without  imparting true knowledge or whereby the school imposes countless fees  and testing requirements for insignificant advancements.​
If  an organization or school is considering implementing a ranking system,  these are the pros and cons that they typically weigh.​ 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 15, 2013)

Balrog said:


> To me, a McDojo uses high pressure, used-car sales tactics.  In addition, their belt promotions are based on whether the check for the testing fee clears the bank, rather than whether or not the student can actually perform the material.



    I agree. A McDojo is a place that sells students their rank. Anybody who is satisfied getting belts that way I would recommend they go to a martial arts store and buy whatever belt they want for $5.00. To any student who wants to buy their rank, at a martial arts store, you can get any color belt you want, including a black belt, for about $5.00, much less than what these McDojos charge.


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## Balrog (Oct 23, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> I agree. A McDojo is a place that sells students their rank. Anybody who is satisfied getting belts that way I would recommend they go to a martial arts store and buy whatever belt they want for $5.00. To any student who wants to buy their rank, at a martial arts store, you can get any color belt you want, including a black belt, for about $5.00, much less than what these McDojos charge.


Yes.  I'll sell anyone a belt.  $7.50, $10 if you want it embroidered.

But that doesn't make you a Black Belt, it makes you a person who owns a Black Belt.  There is a world of difference.  

A Black Belt is like a cake.  A person who owns a Black Belt is like a bowl full of batter.  There's potential, but you ain't cake yet.  You want to be cake, baby, you gotta go through the fire and rise to the challenge.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 24, 2013)

Balrog said:


> Yes.  I'll sell anyone a belt.  $7.50, $10 if you want it embroidered.
> 
> But that doesn't make you a Black Belt, it makes you a person who owns a Black Belt.  There is a world of difference.
> 
> A Black Belt is like a cake.  A person who owns a Black Belt is like a bowl full of batter.  There's potential, but you ain't cake yet.  You want to be cake, baby, you gotta go through the fire and rise to the challenge.



$2.50 for belt embroidery, now that takes the cake.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 24, 2013)

It doesn't cost much.  The biggest factor is how many lines of script and whether or not both ends are embroidered.   Stripes add costs.  Overall though, unless it's hand stitched, embroidery isn't that big a cost.


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## WaterGal (Oct 24, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It doesn't cost much.  The biggest factor is how many lines of script and whether or not both ends are embroidered.   Stripes add costs.  Overall though, unless it's hand stitched, embroidery isn't that big a cost.



Yeah, I just checked my invoices and the last embroidered belt we got was $20 all told, and that's with text on both ends.


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## Dissertating (Oct 29, 2013)

Personally, I really dislike the term "McDojo." There really is not a good definition for it because everyone has their own definition and it typically boils down to "You do something I do not or that I do not agree with, thus you are a McDojo." If we all spent the time training that we seem to spend worrying about McDojo's and what defines a McDojo, we'd all be better martial artists. The simple reality is there is no real way to define McDojo. We can only point to things we feel aren't right and say this is what constitutes a McDojo. I don't label schools this way, I label them schools I would either train at or not for whatever reason. I may not see the value in what a school is doing but if other people see the value and are willing to go to a school that I would not, more power to them. The martial arts for me is a journey and it is different for every person. Some people care about self-defense, some want a workout, some want the belt, some want weapons training, some want to compete or be on demonstration teams. 

I trained at a school in Texas that was a Franchise (red flag for most) with a contract (red flag) and that required you to buy gear through their school (another red flag) that also had any number of items for sale (another red flag) and who had a sales process for new students (gasp red flag) which was considered expensive to a lot of people (everybody man their battle stations this is getting bad) with an instructor with several black belts (*feint* it's just too much). I happily paid my close to $200 a month not caring that plenty of people would label them a McDojo. It was some of the best training I'd ever had and if I hadn't moved out of Texas I would still be training there. I was also attending a Tae Kwon Do and a Krav school when I was there. The Krav school was licensed through KM worldwide (red flag), no required contract but could sign one for a discount (red flaggish), a moderate price, with plenty of add-ons you could choose to purchase (red flaggish). Happily paid my $60/month and enjoyed it (well when I wasn't about to pass out). The Tae Kwon Do place was a hole in the wall type place with an instructor who was a good technician but lacking as an instructor in many ways, no real sales system to speak of other than he would not talk about prices over the phone-you had to come in, and would often disappear from the TKD class to check on the MMA guys in the back. He was about $80/month. If I moved back to San Antonio tomorrow I'd be signed back up with the franchise and Krav studio the same day, I can't say the same about the school that most people would consider the least-McDojo out of the three. 

What I think is important to remember is that school owners are in business. I have no problem with them trying to make money. If they have a business practice that I really just do not agree with that I cannot overlook then I'll find somewhere else to train. No need to try and label them as others may not have any problem with that tactic. What I mean by this is I have a big problem personally with most automated payment systems. I don't disagree with the premise of using them as I understand the benefit they provide to the instructor. My problem comes with the practices of some of the more common companies. Whenever I ended up at a school that used one of these companies they were so sporadic it drove me nuts. One month the payment came out on the 1st. The next month it would come out on the 10th. The month after that it came out on the 24th. I prefer consistency in my payments, if the school would use a company that could manage to take the payment out on the same day, give or take a few days every month as I know my bank also plays a role in this, then it wouldn't bother me to allow for automated payments. Since this is one of my issues that can effect whether I train somewhere or not I have a talk about it with the instructor up front. Usually when I explain my concerns with it they tell me that they'll invoice me every month and I can just pay them directly. If they tell me that they use the payment system because of the benefits and it would not be fair to let students pick and choose, mostly because it would defeat the benefit of using it; well then I will either decide that its not worth it to me or if I really do want to train there I'll tell the instructor that I can live with that as long as the payments come out relatively consistently. If they don't, I walk. At the least it means the instructor probably calls the billing company to discuss this with them.

Ultimately there is no universal definition of McDojo because everybody has different perceptions, expectations, and tolerance for different business practices. We should focus on ourselves (do I want to train here), rather than trying to determine if this school meets some arbitrary definition of McDojo.

Just my .02

-D.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 29, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Personally, I really dislike the term "McDojo." There really is not a good definition for it because everyone has their own definition and it typically boils down to "You do something I do not or that I do not agree with, thus you are a McDojo." If we all spent the time training that we seem to spend worrying about McDojo's and what defines a McDojo, we'd all be better martial artists. The simple reality is there is no real way to define McDojo. We can only point to things we feel aren't right and say this is what constitutes a McDojo. I don't label schools this way, I label them schools I would either train at or not for whatever reason. I may not see the value in what a school is doing but if other people see the value and are willing to go to a school that I would not, more power to them. The martial arts for me is a journey and it is different for every person. Some people care about self-defense, some want a workout, some want the belt, some want weapons training, some want to compete or be on demonstration teams.
> 
> I trained at a school in Texas that was a Franchise (red flag for most) with a contract (red flag) and that required you to buy gear through their school (another red flag) that also had any number of items for sale (another red flag) and who had a sales process for new students (gasp red flag) which was considered expensive to a lot of people (everybody man their battle stations this is getting bad) with an instructor with several black belts (*feint* it's just too much). I happily paid my close to $200 a month not caring that plenty of people would label them a McDojo. It was some of the best training I'd ever had and if I hadn't moved out of Texas I would still be training there. I was also attending a Tae Kwon Do and a Krav school when I was there. The Krav school was licensed through KM worldwide (red flag), no required contract but could sign one for a discount (red flaggish), a moderate price, with plenty of add-ons you could choose to purchase (red flaggish). Happily paid my $60/month and enjoyed it (well when I wasn't about to pass out). The Tae Kwon Do place was a hole in the wall type place with an instructor who was a good technician but lacking as an instructor in many ways, no real sales system to speak of other than he would not talk about prices over the phone-you had to come in, and would often disappear from the TKD class to check on the MMA guys in the back. He was about $80/month. If I moved back to San Antonio tomorrow I'd be signed back up with the franchise and Krav studio the same day, I can't say the same about the school that most people would consider the least-McDojo out of the three.
> 
> ...



While there may be no universal definition, I do feel that there are some common denominator.  Rather than write another lengthy missive, I'll quote my original response.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I want to preface my response by saying that there are plenty of lousy schools that aren't McDojos.  They're just lousy schools.
> 
> A McDojo is a school that has plugged into a system that has developed over the past three decades.  This system is designed to maximize the profitability of the school.  If you look at large, commercial schools, and some not so large schools, you'll see the pattern.  Similar times in grade for black belt (16-24 mos), a huge emphasis on the black belt, the black belt being treated as a graduation of sorts, and a system of testing fees that substantially increase the annual tuition.  Finally, a huge emphasis on kids, with very young child black belts being normative and generally having a* lot *of colored belts between white and black.
> 
> ...



As I've said previously; it all comes down the individual school and the instructors.  I don't check out schools trying to pick out whether or not it's a McDojo, but I am familiar with the elements that lend to it being called one.

And as I've also said previously, profitablilty and/or higher pricing doesn't automatically equivocate to low quality training any more than inexpensive or free instruction equivocates to high quality (an idea that I've seen expressed many times, both here and elsewhere).


----------



## lklawson (Oct 29, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Personally, I really dislike the term "McDojo." There really is not a good definition for it because everyone has their own definition and it typically boils down to "You do something I do not or that I do not agree with, thus you are a McDojo."


Umm... No.  There seems to be developing a general consensus of the over-arching idea of what a McDojo may or may not be.  The question seems to be coming down to the details.



> I trained at a school in Texas that was a Franchise (red flag for most) with a contract (red flag) and that required you to buy gear through their school (another red flag) that also had any number of items for sale (another red flag) and who had a sales process for new students (gasp red flag) which was considered expensive to a lot of people (everybody man their battle stations this is getting bad) with an instructor with several black belts (*feint* it's just too much). I happily paid my close to $200 a month not caring that plenty of people would label them a McDojo. It was some of the best training I'd ever had and if I hadn't moved out of Texas I would still be training there. I was also attending a Tae Kwon Do and a Krav school when I was there. The Krav school was licensed through KM worldwide (red flag), no required contract but could sign one for a discount (red flaggish), a moderate price, with plenty of add-ons you could choose to purchase (red flaggish).


I think you misunderstand exactly what a "red flag" is and what  its purpose is.  A "red flag" doesn't mean automatic disqualification or  points-off-to-the-total.  It just means that it is an indicator  commonly associated with a given description or definition and thus indicates closer inspection and more caution.  You are  confusing correlation with causation (or you are assuming that we are confusing correlation with causation).  Also, I'm not sure that everyone in this discussion would concur with your definitions of a red flag. 



> I can't say the same about the school that most people would consider the least-McDojo out of the three.


I'm not sure who these "plenty of people" or "most people" are because it seems like few people in this discussion would agree.



> What I think is important to remember is that school owners are in business. I have no problem with them trying to make money. If they have a business practice that I really just do not agree with that I cannot overlook then I'll find somewhere else to train. No need to try and label them as others may not have any problem with that tactic. What I mean by this is I have a big problem personally with most automated payment systems. I don't disagree with the premise of using them as I understand the benefit they provide to the instructor. My problem comes with the practices of some of the more common companies. Whenever I ended up at a school that used one of these companies they were so sporadic it drove me nuts. One month the payment came out on the 1st. The next month it would come out on the 10th. The month after that it came out on the 24th. I prefer consistency in my payments, if the school would use a company that could manage to take the payment out on the same day, give or take a few days every month as I know my bank also plays a role in this, then it wouldn't bother me to allow for automated payments. Since this is one of my issues that can effect whether I train somewhere or not I have a talk about it with the instructor up front. Usually when I explain my concerns with it they tell me that they'll invoice me every month and I can just pay them directly. If they tell me that they use the payment system because of the benefits and it would not be fair to let students pick and choose, mostly because it would defeat the benefit of using it; well then I will either decide that its not worth it to me or if I really do want to train there I'll tell the instructor that I can live with that as long as the payments come out relatively consistently. If they don't, I walk. At the least it means the instructor probably calls the billing company to discuss this with them.


Do you think that people in this discussion have a position that a Martial Arts Instructor is somehow immoral or compromising his art if he's also trying to make money from it?  I haven't really seen much of that on this forum (or most forums for that matter).



> Ultimately there is no universal definition of McDojo


Seems like most of us are on the same page.  Just a matter of which paragraph and are we using italics or bold-face.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## elder999 (Oct 29, 2013)

McDojo website here.I think.....



> [h=1]PRO Martial Arts - A Franchise Opportunity[/h]Ed Samane is the founder of PRO Martial Arts Corporation, its methods, and the PRO Martial Arts franchise program. He began this unique instructional program 18 years ago with the belief that karate should teach not only self-defense, but also character by helping to improve overall attitude, self-worth, fitness, assertiveness, and self-awareness in both children and adults.


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## Dissertating (Oct 29, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> While there may be no universal definition, I do feel that there are some common denominator. Rather than write another lengthy missive, I'll quote my original response.



Which is the problem that I was speaking about, or at least the problem from my point of view. These are common denominators for you and you share those with others, but there are also people who do not view it that way. Which was the reason for my example. It is not really fair or respectful to try and influence other people's choices or viewpoints about a certain school using ambiguous terms that are not clearly defined (in my opinion). You have a very clear definition of what you consider a McDojo but that is your definition in which some parts are part of another's definition and other parts are not. So, let me respond to the post you quoted and I'll show you where I disagree with some things and agree with you in a way (like I said I do not like the term McDojo but there are things that I do not like to see in a school I train at):




Daniel Sullivan said:


> _A McDojo is a school that has plugged into a system that has developed over the past three decades. This system is designed to maximize the profitability of the school. If you look at large, commercial schools, and some not so large schools, you'll see the pattern. Similar times in grade for black belt (16-24 mos), a huge emphasis on the black belt, the black belt being treated as a graduation of sorts, and a system of testing fees that substantially increase the annual tuition. Finally, a huge emphasis on kids, with very young child black belts being normative and generally having a_* lot of colored belts between white and black.*


*

There is a problem with a businessperson trying to be profitable? All for-profit businesses should be striving to be profitable. There is nothing inherently wrong with profit. This is where having integrity comes in. You can have a profitable school and not compromise the integrity of your art. While everyone has a concept of how long a black belt should take to achieve, it varies widely. Systems differ, standards for black belts differ. The business person in me actually says that from a profit standpoint it would be smarter to lengthen the time required to become a black belt and then use other means for student retention. Do some people shorten the time required for a black belt to keep motivation high, I'm sure they do. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily. If I'm not training in their art or at their school I really have little interest in it. It's their school and they set the standards, their reputation based on the students will speak for itself. Short-changing their art and producing highly ranked students that do not meet the technical requirements of that art is a travesty and does hurt the arts overall. But does that need a label beyond unethical? What is the problem with an emphasis on achieving a black belt or a graduation for it? From my experiences most people that begin training have attaining their black belt as a goal. What is wrong with focusing on attaining a goal or celebrating once it is accomplished. In most of the arts I've studied the black belt was a graduation of sorts, not to expert or master but of having accomplished an understanding of the fundamentals and ready to pursue mastery (never to achieve it, but to pursue it). I could live without testing fees but am not really bothered by them either. I have heard of some testing fees that seem crazy to me, but if others are willing to pay them then so be it. Often when I see testings done the student is receiving their new belt, certificate, sometimes a new uniform top, and often have outside instructors at the testing. All of which do cost the school owner money. I'm also not averse to them making some profit from the testing, it just doesn't bother me. If the students who are actually paying the money are ok with it, what exactly is the problem? Children are a major part of most martial arts school, nothing really new here. People fall into different camps regarding child black belts, some are ok with it and others are appalled. It is a matter of opinion. I would use a different system if it were my school. But as far as training at a school, I am not a child and so it is mostly irrelevant to me. What is important to me is the adult training. Schools have colored belts, no real shock and not really new. Sure the number have belts have grown but is that really a big deal? When I first started TKD there were not many belts (White, yellow, green, red, brown, black). This is how it should be for some not these 15 different colored belts that we see nowadays. But there were 2 stripes for each belt and we tested for each stripe, I spent 9 months as a white belt going to on average two classes per night Monday-Thursday. What I see now is that rather than having stripes, students receive a new color belt and earn their stripes within normal classes as a means of marking their readiness to test. I really don't see much wrong with this. Is it something that a lot of ultra-traditionalists can't stand? Sure it is I've heard many of them complain about it at length. I don't think it is all that bad of a practice. Goal setting is an important skill that people are lacking. When you study goal setting you see people recommending having long-term, near-term, and short-term goals. Black Belt: Long-term; Next color belt: near-term (can be called other things); Next stripe (short-term). It's a motivation tool, which does help retention rates. People want to make progress towards their goals and be recognized for their accomplishments.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			In addition, you have side orders: Black belt clubs, masters clubs, leadership clubs, demo teams and competion teams, all of which cost extra to join and which usually come with a prize (uniform, patch, special belt, etc.). School branded equipment often serves as a side order as well, though usually not at a competitive price, which is why some McDojos require students to buy their equipment. After school programs and summer camps are also a vital part of this model, though again, because profit is the focus, these programs lack any licensing an lack certified or appropriately trained personnel that are normally found in daycare centers and preschool.
		
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Each of which are and should be considered optional add-ons. I've never been to a school (not saying they don't exist) that had these and made them mandatory. Take them or leave them. If you go to a department store and buy a dress shirt and want a tie to go with it do you expect it to be free? If you go to the mechanic for an oil change and then decide you'd like your brake pad changed, do you expect it to be free? If you go to a restaurant and decide you want a slice of pie, should it be free? If you go to a gym and want an hour with a personal trainer, should it be free (yes, I know that Planet fitness offers free personal training but that is known as part of your monthly payment with them and is not common practice that I've found). I don't see many students at martial arts school worry that much over these different clubs. It always seems to be the traditional guys/gals or people who train at schools without them that take so much offense to them. Perhaps some of the people bothered by it are ones that think they should get for free what others pay for. They don't want it bad enough to pay for it and then think it should just be part of the package. Life isn't an all-you-can-eat buffet, sometimes you have to pay for extra. It comes down to different philosophies. I personally tend not to like equipment to be purchased only from the school, but for me is rarely a reason to dismiss a school. Sometimes it is purely profit-motivated and a poor business decision in my opinion. I have, however, known instructors who had this rule in place because they did not want students buying the cheapest thing they could find and it turn out not to be safe. After school programs should be license if required by their state. Some of that depends on what takes place during the program. It is, however, a bit of a weak argument considering that martial arts schools in general lack licensing and certified personnel for interacting with children. I don't really follow the whole summer camp thing because I attended a lot of them growing up and they surely did not have licensed childcare providers and every one of them cost money. Once again these are added services you can choose to pay for or not pay for.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			After black belt, there are generally weapons, but the weapons curriculum is designed to keep students interested rather than to actually give meaningful instruction in the weapons in question. They may learn raw basics (how to hold and how to swing in a few predetermined patterns and maybe a couple of blocks), but once they learn these raw basics, they are quickly hustled onto the next, and likely less useful, weapon. Of note, many of the McDojo schools teach arts that don't traditionally include these weapons, but which savvy school owners have learned are exciting to young students.
		
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No meaningful instruction in weapons that were designed based off farm implements to be used in a different era? Just pointing that out, I am well aware that the principles of these weapons can be applied to sometimes readily available everyday items (pool cues, sticks, etc). But is it really your or my place to judge the value of weapons training for other people? I choose to train in the weapons I carry with me or feel I can acquire in most instances. Predominantly my interests are in knives and firearms because I am rarely far from either. But I also enjoy more traditional weapons regardless of their day-to-day self-defense availability. I've seen a lot of schools that have weapons as part of the curriculum, traditional schools, that teach a handful of kata for each weapon, and don't practice them beyond kata. No practice or discussion of their practical application. It never seemed to bother the students. Were I teaching weapons would I want to teach practical applications? Absolutely, but that doesn't necessarily detract from the value of another school. People are enamored with weapons, they want to train in them, as a kid I wanted to train with them and not because I wanted to know how to use them to beat other people up, it was enjoyable. When you watch some of the "extreme" empty-hand and weapons forms that people create for competition that are designed to look good not be deadly do you think that they are wrong for doing so? If they find enjoyment in it, then so be it. Quality is important, but enjoyment is also important. If whatever depth you teach weapons, you are giving quality instruction in what you do teach then what is the problem? Teaching poor quality can be unethical, but we also have to remember that quality is subjective in everything including the martial arts. As far as your last statement, if an instructor adds something to their curriculum that is usually not there but that their students enjoy then this is bad? Back when I went through paramedic school my instructor made all of us learn the full medical school physical assessment that was above and beyond what was required of the curriculum. This made me a worse paramedic, yes? I bit of an extreme example, sorry. But the martial arts students learned a little bit extra about martial arts (even if not to the depth you would prefer or to be experts in the practical applications of that weapon) that they enjoyed learning and this is a qualification for a label?



Daniel Sullivan said:



			These schools also all have a rather similar look and similar business practices. Lengthy contracts (one year or more), high end pricing, requirements of bank drafting monthly dues through a billing company, and an excessive number of colored belts, often with ascending fees, and pretty much guaranteed passage upon payment of said fees.
		
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Almost every truck-stop bathroom I've ever been in had a similar look and business practices. A vague statement that honestly says nothing about the quality of instruction. I'm generally not a fan of long contracts with no outs other than moving over 30 miles away. However, I have trained at schools with mandatory contracts that had great instruction and at schools without contracts with poor instruction. Pricing is subjective. It is based upon perceived value on the part of both the school owner and the student. Some students are unwilling to pay $150/month and others will do so happily. It the student feels that what they are learning is worth at least what they are paying, what is the problem. Price is irrelevant, competing on price as a small-business owner can be fatal as often as it's successful. If you charge too much based on the value of what you're providing and you'll probably go out of business. Charge too little and you surely will. What always tickles me (and this is not directed at you) is the student who won't go and pay this high fee to the "McDojo" but then grumbles that all the schools that charge the $50/month they're willing to spend will give them tetanus. I already mentioned my thoughts on billing companies, there has got to be a decent one out there somewhere. Already spoke about number of belts and testing fees. Guaranteed passage kind of depends on how and why its set-up. There are some very good instructors who use a rotating curriculum and for the first several tests will basically guarantee passing as long as the student is making progress. They essentially have looser initial standards that get stricter and stricter as the student progresses. This is not necessarily bad as it does offset discouragement that students will feel as they are learning something new. Anyone who thinks that when they took their very first rank test that they had to and did perform the perfect front kick because their instructor did not accept anything less than perfection is probably kidding themselves. You expect a different level of technical competence at different levels. If simply paying money is all that it takes to receive a belt without any progression or skill, then yes this is bad and unethical in my opinion.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			Curriculum at these schools is geared towards keeping you paying. A little is dribbled out with each belt and you learn it well enough to pass the test. You then move onto the next batch of material, learn it well enough to pass the test, promote, repeat process. The self defense is sometimes fantastical, but more often it is simply geared towards competitions, though the school itself may not be particularly competitive.
		
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So when you started off as a white belt your instructor taught you everything that was required all the way through the highest level in your system as a white belt, yes? What you described is the nature of teaching and learning. It is the same experience I have had from pre-school to the PhD program I'm in now and every time I've ever learned anything in a formal setting. Heck I can argue that it is the way I've gained anything I've ever learned. Everyone has different definitions of fantastical and it starts getting too close to my art is better than your art. I believe that some arts teach self-defense better than others, but it is solely my opinion where individual arts or schools within arts lie. Some people's goal is to compete, maybe they're better off at a competition based school? Oh yea, back to first statement. Almost every formal curriculum that you pay to take is geared towards keeping you paying to some extent. Colleges and universities spend absurd amounts of money studying and trying to improve student retention.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			The teaching at these schools is usually mediocre, though there are some with stellar teachers. While a McDojo can be a good school, the focus on profitablility places teaching in the back seat, so the level of instruction falls to the norm of mediocrity. The length of the contracts mean that there is a fuse on fee collection, so students are be passed along through the belt ranks because that final black belt test is often hundreds of dollars and they need to get those fees prior to the contract expiration.
		
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You are an expert on adult and child educational theory and application? Mediocrity is subjective and I'd argue that most teachers of anything are mediocre as teachers. Teaching is both art and science, the ones that we tend to classify as good are really skilled in the art of teaching but know little about the science, few have a decent about of skill/knowledge in the art and science, and probably only a handful are really skilled in both. There is a pretty close comparison between martial arts teachers and university professors. They are both considered experts in their field and the honest truth is that neither group tends to know a whole lot about learning and teaching. We equate expertise in a field with teaching ability, which is far from the truth. The "good" ones tend to get by on natural aptitude but could be phenomenal if they received a solid foundation in education. I've already talked about contracts and I don't believe they are fantastic but they do serve a purpose which is not always the one attributed to them. And I have agreed that there is an ethical concern to trading a black belt for money without the skill required for your art. Though I also do not claim to be an expert it what is required of every art and organization out there, certainly not enough to go around judging schools or arts. I know what I am looking for in my training and search out schools that will provide it, those that don't I move past. The key is that what I am looking for is not necessarily the same as what you or someone else is looking for. What is a good fit for me, may not be for you. What is a good fit for you, may not be for me. If I'm not going to train there why should I care about labeling it this or that? I have no need to prove myself as some expert in the martial arts by passing judgement on other schools or instructors

The whole concept of "a McDojo can be a good school, the focus on profitability places teaching in the back seat, so the level of instruction falls to the norm of mediocrity" is subjective and ridiculous. It doesn't even make sense. A good school at the level of mediocrity because of profit? Is mediocrity the definition of a good school? According to this line of reasoning every for-profit business, and most non-profits, are McDojos. The government is a McDojo. I trade time for profit, heck I'm a McDojo. You probably make money doing something, you're a McDojo. I still don't get why everyone is so afraid of someone else being a successful martial arts school owner. I really do think its some weird, twisted concept of what we believe about Asian notions of honor or integrity or whatever. Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Nintendo are all just trying to break-even right? The only honorable martial arts instructor is the one who worries how he's going to pay the light bill for his 200 square foot run-down school and lives off three packs of Ramen noodles and half a snickers bar a week? And if he's extra-special honorable he donates two of those packs of Ramen noodles to a food bank.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			Finally, the tests are filled with physical busy-work; calisthenics, running through warm up exercises, and essentially doing things that do nothing to show the quality of the training. The students are then praised for endurance, but a careful examination of their overal level of quality reveals that it is usually (though there are exceptions) not where it should be.
		
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Physical ability is not important in a physical activity? Are there better times to test physical abilities such as general endurance or strength than at a testing? Perhaps, I've seen tests done both ways and it has never really bothered me either way. For some a black belt test is a grueling ordeal that is meant to test your mental willpower as much as your physical ability. Which is a concept that the U.S. military uses every day. They don't just do endless PT to make their recruits more physically fit. The people that go into selection for various special forces groups are already in pretty top notch shape and then even after selection they are constantly pushed to their physical limits to test their mental ones. I will say that quality should be demonstrated in a test and most of the tests that did have pretty heavy fitness tests along with it actually expected a certain level of degradation of technique as the test went on. I'm sure there are cases where you are right and PT is used to mask technique flaws, but it is also possible that you do not agree with incorporating any type of PT into testing and so any school that does isn't doing it right and is, therefore, a McDojo.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			Again, the above designates a McDojo. A school can be "traditional" and have an instructor with tons of legitimate accolades and still be a lousy school. Not every champion is a teacher and low prices are no more a guarantor of quality than expensive prices are.
		
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Traditional school, instructor with legitimate accolades, lousy? I guess you mean that a well qualified instructor can have a lousy school and I agree wholeheartedly. That has nothing to do with whether they are making a profit or not. Not every champion is a teacher. Not every good teacher is a champion. Price is no more of a guarantor of quality than anything else you've mentioned other than where you have explicitly stated quality is bad. You cannot legitimately say that using a billing company means the instruction is bad. Or that having a contract means the instruction is bad. Or that having lots of colored belts means the instruction is bad. Or that any combination of these three with anything else you listed (other than explicit quality problems) means that the instruction is bad. Not trying to be rude or offend you, but when I read this what it seemed to scream at me was if the instructor wants to make money teaching martial arts they must be a McDojo. I contend that you can make money and maintain the integrity of what you teach. If you are providing value to people and they are willing to pay you for it then you are obviously doing something right. Some people expect pushy sales and really couldn't care less one way or another, some see it as a game, and some will walk if presented with it. The best salespeople aren't push at all from my experiences. Asking for the sale is not bad or wrong or evil. The martial arts teacher is selling a service and to get the sale you have to ask for it.



Daniel Sullivan said:



			Additionally, a McDojo who's owner hasn't forgotten why (s)he teaches martial arts can sometimes offer a very good school that is also profitable, and thus not as likely to close when times are lean, but such schools are definitely the exception to the rule.
		
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So, based on this statement if I were to own a school a McDojo would be exactly what I wanted to own. To be an owner that still loved their art, had a good school with a solid curriculum, that was profitable and didn't have to worry about having to close when times are lean-- I'll take it. Profit at the expense of the art is bad, profit while maintaining the integrity of your art is not. 



Daniel Sullivan said:



			As I've said previously; it all comes down the individual school and the instructors. I don't check out schools trying to pick out whether or not it's a McDojo, but I am familiar with the elements that lend to it being called one.
		
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This I completely agree with. It is the individual schools and instructors. Just like what a McDojo is or isn't all comes down to individuals. I would hate to miss the opportunity to train at a place that had something that really filled a gap in my training because of some arbitrary rules that did not necessarily impact the quality of the instruction at all. That was the point of my example in my first post, I found great training at a place that would be labeled a McDojo by most and not so great training at another place that most would not call a McDojo. I would be rather upset if I went to a martial artist friend who I respected and asked him about XYZ school only to be told "it's a McDojo" based on their own personal arbitrary definition. To me it is a bit close-minded as I've seen any number of discussions about whether this or that school is or is not a McDojo on the internet about schools that no one involved in the conversation is anywhere close enough to go check it out on their own. I would have much greater respect for someone that told me specifically what the problems were. "I don't know much about that school but I went by and checked it out and thought it was too expensive." or "I didn't feel the style was a good fit for me, but it might be for you." or "They do front kicks differently than I've been taught and I don't know that I agree with how they do them or that I could adapt to that."

And ultimately, I go back to my main point from before. You don't try and pick out whether a school is or is not a McDojo but you have a detailed list of what constitutes one based. What you have is a detailed list of what you feel constitutes the derogatory label of McDojo. Though based on at least one statement of yours it is exactly the label most business consultants would tell you to strive for. Which is the key, a McDojo is whatever the individual believes it is. There is really no standard to compare it against. If you ask me is Joe's Modern Tae Kwon Roto Rooter a McDojo, I'd have to say maybe, whose definition do you want to compare it against? Daniel's? Watergal's? Balrog's? PhotonGuys? Just reading this thread shows a variety of definitions. Well does Joe's sell rank? If it does then according to PhotonGuy it is a McDojo. It might also be according to Daniel but he has a rather large list of criteria but is a little unclear on how many of those criteria you have to meet, I'm pretty sure that selling rank is an automatic qualifier though so I would feel safe saying that it probably qualifies as a McDojo for Daniel but we might want to call him and see how to score each criteria and what overall score we have to make to meet the qualification.

Once again it is all my .02. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Also, I am not attempting to attack you or be argumentative, just laying out my point of view in comparison to the post of yours you quoted. You have every right to believe a McDojo is whatever you believe it is. It just so happens that I dislike the term and care more for quality in instruction than whether the owner makes a profit or not.

-D. *


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## lklawson (Oct 29, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> It is not really fair or respectful to try and influence other people's choices or viewpoints about a certain school


Of course it's fair.  We get asked all the time what school/art/etc. someone should study or if this or that school, some given art's regulating body, or so-n-so's school is "any good" or if someone should or should not take classes there.

We're asked for qualitative opinions all the freaking time.  Having some expressible reason for yes/no good/bad is perfectly reasonable even if you don't like the reasons expressed.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 29, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Which is the problem that I was speaking about, or at least the problem from my point of view. These are common denominators for you and you share those with others, but there are also people who do not view it that way. Which was the reason for my example. It is not really fair or respectful to try and influence other people's choices or viewpoints about a certain school using ambiguous terms that are not clearly defined (in my opinion). You have a very clear definition of what you consider a McDojo but that is your definition in which some parts are part of another's definition and other parts are not. So, let me respond to the post you quoted and I'll show you where I disagree with some things and agree with you in a way (like I said I do not like the term McDojo but there are things that I do not like to see in a school I train at):
> 
> There is a problem with a businessperson trying to be profitable? All for-profit businesses should be striving to be profitable. There is nothing inherently wrong with profit. This is where having integrity comes in. You can have a profitable school and not compromise the integrity of your art. While everyone has a concept of how long a black belt should take to achieve, it varies widely. Systems differ, standards for black belts differ. The business person in me actually says that from a profit standpoint it would be smarter to lengthen the time required to become a black belt and then use other means for student retention. Do some people shorten the time required for a black belt to keep motivation high, I'm sure they do. Do I agree with it? Not necessarily. If I'm not training in their art or at their school I really have little interest in it. It's their school and they set the standards, their reputation based on the students will speak for itself. Short-changing their art and producing highly ranked students that do not meet the technical requirements of that art is a travesty and does hurt the arts overall. But does that need a label beyond unethical? What is the problem with an emphasis on achieving a black belt or a graduation for it? From my experiences most people that begin training have attaining their black belt as a goal. What is wrong with focusing on attaining a goal or celebrating once it is accomplished. In most of the arts I've studied the black belt was a graduation of sorts, not to expert or master but of having accomplished an understanding of the fundamentals and ready to pursue mastery (never to achieve it, but to pursue it). I could live without testing fees but am not really bothered by them either. I have heard of some testing fees that seem crazy to me, but if others are willing to pay them then so be it. Often when I see testings done the student is receiving their new belt, certificate, sometimes a new uniform top, and often have outside instructors at the testing. All of which do cost the school owner money. I'm also not averse to them making some profit from the testing, it just doesn't bother me. If the students who are actually paying the money are ok with it, what exactly is the problem? Children are a major part of most martial arts school, nothing really new here. People fall into different camps regarding child black belts, some are ok with it and others are appalled. It is a matter of opinion. I would use a different system if it were my school. But as far as training at a school, I am not a child and so it is mostly irrelevant to me. What is important to me is the adult training. Schools have colored belts, no real shock and not really new. Sure the number have belts have grown but is that really a big deal? When I first started TKD there were not many belts (White, yellow, green, red, brown, black). This is how it should be for some not these 15 different colored belts that we see nowadays. But there were 2 stripes for each belt and we tested for each stripe, I spent 9 months as a white belt going to on average two classes per night Monday-Thursday. What I see now is that rather than having stripes, students receive a new color belt and earn their stripes within normal classes as a means of marking their readiness to test. I really don't see much wrong with this. Is it something that a lot of ultra-traditionalists can't stand? Sure it is I've heard many of them complain about it at length. I don't think it is all that bad of a practice. Goal setting is an important skill that people are lacking. When you study goal setting you see people recommending having long-term, near-term, and short-term goals. Black Belt: Long-term; Next color belt: near-term (can be called other things); Next stripe (short-term). It's a motivation tool, which does help retention rates. People want to make progress towards their goals and be recognized for their accomplishments.
> 
> ...


Your reply is fourteen paragraphs worth, thirteen of which were in bold print, and two of which should have been three paragraphs on their own.  Yes, I read it.

I began a point by point response to you, but in reading your post, I realized that you hadn't actually read my post very carefully and that you seem convinced that I made points that I wasn't making, so I canceled it.  

You were brimming over so much with your rebuttal that you couldn't actually take your time to read my post.  Because of that, you made straw man arguments based on points you think I made.  This is discernable in the way that you restate my comments in your own posts.  

If you want to compare viewpoints on McDojos, talk_ to _me, don't blog *at* me.  If you want my opinion on something, or want to know where I'm coming from on a subject, ask me concise questions rather than snarky rhetorical ones accompanied by a blog.  I don't respond well to snark, by the way, and there's enough of it here that I question whether you're actually interested in discussing anything rather than just broadcasting your own point of view.

If you stay here for any length of time, you'll find that I'm probably a lot more supportive of commercial schools and the things that they have to deal with and a lot less judgemental of commercial schools, children in black belts, and peripheral programs than many here are.  Of course, that should have been evident from the post that you quoted.


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## Dissertating (Oct 29, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Umm... No.  There seems to be developing a general consensus of the over-arching idea of what a McDojo may or may not be.  The question seems to be coming down to the details.



And you are free to come to a consensus definition, but my question is what is the point for another derogatory term that serves no real purpose. A person either perceives enough value in a school to justify paying the costs asked or they don't. That is an individual decision and the consensus means nothing to that individual. My issue with the term is that it gets applied all to quickly with little to no real knowledge of the actual school in question and the fact that there really is no way to know what a person means when they label it a McDojo. Lets use Elder999's post as an example. He has found a website, posted its link here and stated that he thinks it may be a McDojo. Now are we all supposed to debate its merit as a McDojo based on its website? Elder999 may know a great deal about the Pro Martial Arts franchise as a whole or one of its Franchisees. Maybe to him it is a McDojo but based on his post I have no way of knowing what he means by McDojo except the "consensus" being generated in this thread. What if his definition is different? But once again, what is the point? How can I discuss Pro martial arts as a McDojo when I've never been in one. Even if I had been in one, how could I discuss them all. Had Elder999 posted a link to Premiere martial arts, then I could discuss that, at least concerning the one of their franchised schools I have been to. I guess the best way to put it is that when you start off with something considered derogatory I believe there is little honest debate that can go on. As I seem to usually see the term McDojo used, a post is started along the lines of "Is this a McDojo?" or "HALP, I think I'm at a McDojo!!!" And usually there are tons of people who have never been to the school that are quick to confirm for that person that yes they are attending a McDojo. And the usual line of reasoning that I have seen in these types of conversations is well they're trying to make money, therefore they sell belts, therefore they are a McDojo. Why don't we discuss the pros and cons of a particular school or program. Rather than worrying about the label, what's the problem? 

"Well the school owner sold me a contract membership!" 
"Ok, did you want to learn what he was teaching and were willing to pay the price he asked?"
"Yea"
"Then what's the problem?"
"Well he made me sign a contract!"
"Made you huh, held a gun to your head did he?
"Well no"
"So you agreed to it when you signed it, not you don't want it, and so he must be a McDojo?"
"YESSS!!!11!! You get it, I knew He WAS a McDojo"
"No, you are an adult who was stupid enough to sign a long-term contract for something that you were not sure you would stick with for a long time."

or

"I think I'm at a McDojo"
"What's the problem?"
"Well, there's a lot of Tae Kwon Do black belts that are like 12 years old and can't kick about their shins without losing their balance."
So your answer can be:
"Yep, you're at a McDojo congratulations"
or "Well from what I know about Tae Kwon Do that probably doesn't meet the technical requirements for TKD, are there other options near you?"

I tend to be more interested in helping people find the right school for them and I have dealt with students long enough to know that nothing is ever their fault. Things are not always their fault, sometimes they are actually right, but I've also heard some pretty wild things from students about how they were wronged by this teacher or that. I've sat in the manager's chair over faculty and after test time there'd be any number of students who failed the test in the office claiming this or that as not being fair. It does deserve investigation because they are right at times. But do I label the instructor a McTeacher to ridicule them? No, I take the appropriate disciplinary action and move on.



> I think you misunderstand exactly what a "red flag" is and what  its purpose is.  A "red flag" doesn't mean automatic disqualification or  points-off-to-the-total.  It just means that it is an indicator  commonly associated with a given description or definition and thus indicates closer inspection and more caution.  You are  confusing correlation with causation (or you are assuming that we are confusing correlation with causation).  Also, I'm not sure that everyone in this discussion would concur with your definitions of a red flag.




I really really wish I was not familiar with correlation does not equal causation, I hear it way too much in school .  I was just pointing out examples of red flags that I have heard used before, some of which had been used in this thread, as part of the overall example. The point I was trying to make there, apparently not very successfully, was that I attended three schools. One which, based on this and other conversations I've had over McDojos that have helped form my personal thoughts, was most likely to be considered a McDojo, one that could go either way, and one that I felt would typically not be considered a McDojo. And where I to move back to Texas I wouldn't hesitate re-joining the first two and probably would not join the last. Now what if I'd asked a friend about going to the first school and he told me "Naw, you don't want to go there," and his opinion was based on nothing more than his belief in what a McDojo was and his feeling that it met those criteria. What if I had listened to him and actually missed out on a fantastic place to train? Would I just go with his recommendation without asking him why? No, of course not. But there are those that would because they don't know any better.



> I'm not sure who these "plenty of people" or "most people" are because it seems like few people in this discussion would agree.



And you're right that its possible few people in the discussion would agree, some might. The statement was based on my cumulative experience of McDojo discussions. When I speak I bring the whole of my experience and perhaps should quantify more that I am not necessarily aiming at people in the particular discussion at hand. My bad.



> Do you think that people in this discussion have a position that a Martial Arts Instructor is somehow immoral or compromising his art if he's also trying to make money from it?  I haven't really seen much of that on this forum (or most forums for that matter).



No. This goes back again that I speak with the sum of my experiences. What I have noticed in my dealings with the topic is that it really people make that "you're doing it different from me" or "you're making money doing this, boooo" you are a McDojo leap. I had no intention of making or seeming to make accusations against anyone in this thread, I was actually surprised by the very succinct definitions "Trading money for belts" from many that I usually don't see in these discussions. It seems like most of the ones that I end up reading or talking about face-to-face are ones with this huge laundry list of McDojo qualities. A red flag is just a red flag, but for a lot of the people I've had the discussion with if you meet one of their criteria then you are a McDojo. Wasn't trying to accuse any of this in my original post. Was just quantifying why I dislike the McDojo term as it has been used in my experiences. 



> Seems like most of us are on the same page.  Just a matter of which paragraph and are we using italics or bold-face.



And I am on the same page as far as believing that Trading money for belts or letting the quality of instruction suffer in favor of profits is very bad. I just think that we should say that directly rather than use a term that does have different meanings for different people. 

I thank you for taking the time to respond to my post, I think a healthy debate is an important part of advancing as individuals. We do need to periodically challenge our own commonly held notions or beliefs and we grow by understanding others points of view.

As a general note, no matter how I come off I rarely mean to attack an individual for their point of view. You have as much right to yours as I to mine. I will disagree, and even sometimes in a cheeky way, but I assure you it is meant to be humorous and to lighten the discussion some. I'm one of those people who can argue until I seem like I'm going to explode and then smile when its done and go have a beer. I truly am interested in the opinions and point-of-view of others, even if I disagree  I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it!

-D.

Edit: For spelling and grammar, let's hope I got them all.


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## Dissertating (Oct 29, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Of course it's fair.  We get asked all the time what school/art/etc. someone should study or if this or that school, some given art's regulating body, or so-n-so's school is "any good" or if someone should or should not take classes there.
> 
> We're asked for qualitative opinions all the freaking time.  Having some expressible reason for yes/no good/bad is perfectly reasonable even if you don't like the reasons expressed.
> 
> ...



Which is why the whole quote is important:

It is not really fair or respectful to try and influence other people's choices or viewpoints about a certain school* using ambiguous terms that are not clearly defined (in my opinion).
*
The part in bold left out. 

I do not think it is wrong, and have said so in this thread, to give opinions when there is some substance to them. Don't just tell me you don't like it, give me the reasons why. This is kind of why I dislike the term, because I feel it is used too often to tell someone no stay away from that place without actually telling them why. If I came and asked you well what do you think about Such-and-such Karate school and you just said "Stay away it's a McDojo." Which seems is the response when someone doesn't actually know anything about the school but doesn't like it for some off the wall reason (I looked at their website and it looked to commercial). It is a lot less helpful than telling them well I tried the school out and the instructor was very rude or didn't seem interested in his students or that in your opinion the instructor wasn't teaching what he claimed to be teaching based on your experiences with that art.

That was the actual point being expressed, telling someone it is a McDojo tells them nothing to me. Telling them the reasons why you don't like it or why you do is what we should be doing. If you want to quantify you think it's a McDojo before you give the reasons then that is your choice. For me it's just wasted breath, especially considering it is an opinion (whether actually right or wrong).


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## Dissertating (Oct 29, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Your reply is fourteen paragraphs worth, thirteen of which were in bold print, and two of which should have been three paragraphs on their own.  Yes, I read it.
> 
> I began a point by point response to you, but in reading your post, I realized that you hadn't actually read my post very carefully and that you seem convinced that I made points that I wasn't making, so I canceled it.
> 
> ...



Daniel,

   In all honesty I did read your post, multiple times in fact. And I honestly was just trying to give my opinion based on the points I saw you making. In your opinion I may not have grasped the nuance of what you were saying. So the overall premise I took from what you had quoted was that you felt there were indicators that made a McDojo, which I gave an alternating point of view that some of the things can have legitimate uses or not necessarily be red flags. The overall purpose being to show a point of view that perhaps contrasted your own and furthered the conversation. I did restate your comments because I agreed with some, and some I agreed with after some modification. I will be honest that I feel much the same way about your posts. You say that you are ok with an instructor making a profit but then you call the School owner who maintains the integrity of their art while making a profit a McDojo owner. In my defense I did state at the very beginning that all of this was my opinion and attempted to show where it differs. And at the end I again attempted to relay that it was my opinion and to explicitly state that I was not trying to attack or be argumentative as I know how easy it is to take things people say on forums like these.

I can apologize for the length. I am talkative, sometimes go off on tangents, and can even be preachy at times (I was raised southern baptist, I'm trapped and don't know how to get rid of the preachiness  ). It is my tendency to go off on tangents and be preachy that I try to write often that it is my opinion and that I am not meaning to seem like I am attacking or trying to offend anyone. I send my days talking to people and it has made me a bit chatty. 

The bold was by accident. I did not bold it intentionally and am not sure how it got that way.

I guess my "brimming over with my rebuttal" was accurate as the post was meant to be a rebuttal but not really in a negative way. I am sorry if you took it that way.

I use rhetorical questions, quite a bit both when I write and speak. Not intended to be snarky, cheeky maybe but not snarky. I would be willing to bet that most of the questions you felt were snarky were not meant to be snarky or probably even cheeky. I don't see a problem with using rhetorical questions. I use them to make or emphasize points, maybe too much but its how I am. Some of the non-rhetorical questions that you found snarky, well again I can only apologize for you finding them snarky but I assure you there was a valid (not necessarily one you agree with) point behind them. I'll try not to blog at you, though I am afraid it is another one of those personal quirks. I try to be thorough in my explanations, its a habit I have from teaching rather complex topics to people often straight out of high school. I am not saying that anything I said above was complex, just that I am used to explaining in depth. And I would rather write a hundred magazine articles or blog posts than a single scientific paper, I like the style of writing better.

Maybe our definition of discussions are different. I responded to what you responded to me with. You gave me your point of view, I gave you and defended mine in return. You took offense either because of how I write or because you thought I was being snarky or because you felt I wasn't "getting" what you were saying, or because I gave my honest rebuttal rather than caving to your views and ended the conversation. If you had responded, I would have responded to you and by the time it was done I think we would have both clarified some misunderstandings and would have ended up with a decent approximation of what each person believes and quite possibly a better understanding of the opposing viewpoint. Real discussions take work and a willingness to do so on both sides even though they may not agree with what they're hearing/reading. I honestly wanted to better understand your point of view and the best way to do that was to confront it with my own and then see how you did so in return.

And I do not doubt that you are supportive of commercial schools, but as you noted I have not been here for any length of time and do not know how supportive you have been in the past. You speak from the sum of your experience, as do I even if we don't always know the sum of that experience. The last two sentences that you added in may have had me approach the whole thing a little differently had I seen them before I began writing my reply, though probably not. Each of the things you noted were on your list of McDojo common denominators. Now you may have meant that in and of themselves each one does not mean a McDojo, but it did read that way for me at least. And in my defense you gave no real quantifiable way to use this list to determine what mix of these traits denotes a McDojo and other statements as mentioned above show that profit is an important part of your definition regardless of quality (the whole McDojo Shool owner that makes a profit and "remembers why (s)he teaches"). I may be dense and not understanding the hidden meaning but the water is a little muddy.

I really don't know how to respond to the whole "if I'm here any length of time" as though I am supposed to turn and run from the board as fast as I can because you and I had a misunderstanding. I have a thick skin but if misunderstandings are going to be all too common then it may be best for me to allow you the rule of your kingdom without my meddling. With that being said I again apologize if you took offense to anything I said or thought I was trying to do anything more than have a conversation. I will admit that maybe I did not make myself clear on some things or how I meant things. I accept my part in the misunderstanding and hope that this little blog post  helped clear up where I was coming from or my intentions or just gave a little insight into the way I write/speak that can be taken the wrong way. I truly was, and still am, interested in understanding your point of view and do feel you have as much a right to yours as I do to mine.

-David


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## Steve (Oct 29, 2013)

David, you're free to train wherever you'd like, and it's great that you have found schools which suit you, and provide what you believe is a good value.  The term "mcdojo" means, to me, a way of doing business, and as others have pointed out, the term does mean generally the same thing to most people.  Every term, including "mcdojo" is somewhat subjective, but you could ask anyone here or over on Bullshido.net, and while there are varying opinions about the worth of a mcdojo, most people will readily acknowledge that one can obtain quality instruction at a "McDojo."  The quality of the instruction and the business practices employed are distinct and one is not necessarily a reflection of the other.

Edit:  And, I forgot to say, welcome to the boards!


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## Dissertating (Oct 29, 2013)

Thanks Steve!

So let me ask you this. Is there something wrong with a certain way of doing business or a right way to do business? If certain business practices earn a school the label of McDojo, what are the "right" business practices? And why are those right and the others wrong?

Edit: Let me add for the sake of clarity that my questioning uses the assumption that McDojo is a derogatory term which would make the business practices earning that label "wrong" to the person giving the label.
-D.


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## Steve (Oct 29, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Thanks Steve!
> 
> So let me ask you this. Is there something wrong with a certain way of doing business or a right way to do business? If certain business practices earn a school the label of McDojo, what are the "right" business practices? And why are those right and the others wrong?
> 
> ...


Well, that's a judgement call.  Mixing money and the "art" is a bad thing for some.  But most, I think, would say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with making a good living.  There is a point where the pursuit of money and the building of a martial arts empire becomes the primary focus.  Gaining new students becomes the priority over retaining the current students.  It's a viable business model, but one which can lead to quality issues.  

Also, some of the business practices associated with McDojos are more questionable than others.  For example, I've always had a problem with "mandatory seminars," "mandatory belt testing," or other things which aren't discussed before the contract is signed, which create additional costs for the customers.  It's deceitful, IMO.  There are other business practices that I would consider aggressive and not completely honest.  

But, discounts for signing longer terms isn't a bad thing necessarily.  Neither is selling kit in-house.  That's a great way to keep money in the school.  Opening affiliate schools is another way to share costs and keep overhead down.  Stuff like that is McDojo-ish, but not bad.  

I'd say that, as long as quality control is good, and the instruction is sound, then there's really nothing inherently wrong with being a McDojo.  I don't like some of the business practices, but that doesn't make them bad.  Just not for me.


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## WaterGal (Oct 29, 2013)

elder999 said:


> McDojo website here.I think.....



I think the quote-worthy part is this:  


> *No previous martial arts experience is necessary to qualify for a PRO Martial Arts franchise!*



I actually do think martial arts can be a great way (though certainly not the only way) to help people with their confidence, assertiveness, self-discipline, etc, as cliched as that may be.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> I think the quote-worthy part is this:
> 
> *No previous martial arts experience is necessary to qualify for a PRO Martial Arts franchise!*



That may not be as bad as it appears, it could mean that the franchisee does not require martial arts experience to own and run the business side of the Dojo but would have to employ an instructor to run classes. Although with no martial arts experience he may not know what to look for.


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## Dissertating (Oct 30, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> That may not be as bad as it appears, it could mean that the franchisee does not require martial arts experience to own and run the business side of the Dojo but would have to employ an instructor to run classes. Although with no martial arts experience he may not know what to look for.



I went back and really looked at the website and found this:

*5. How many employees do I need? *
You can start with as few as 3 to 4 employees, (with yourself as owner/manager), a Program Director, and instructors. However, franchisees who have the funds to hire additional people whose talents complement their own can grow faster.

So, I haven't been able to explicitly find whether the "owner/manager" is supposed to having teaching duties. It does state that the owner/manager will learn the curriculum but as a manager you should be familiar with it even if you are not an instructor. I can't say for certain though without calling them. Though on the non-franchise side of the site they noted their organization's instructor qualifications as:



Level 1 karate instructor certification
Black Belt-IL Dan Bo
Personal safety training
First aid knowledge
Full insurance coverage
Criminal background check
Ongoing continuing education

Doesn't mean this is written in stone, just something I found. Not bad standards if they're adhered to and particularly if the instructor training is good. The benefits to franchises, even those that may have some of the indicators mentioned for a McDojo, is that they provide a proven successful (theoretically should anyway) business system which could potentially be the difference between a good instructor going belly up because they don't know anything about business and being a successful teacher/studio owner.

-D.

Edit: The dreaded spelling/grammar.


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## elder999 (Oct 30, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Lets use Elder999's post as an example. He has found a website, posted its link here and stated that he thinks it may be a McDojo. Now are we all supposed to debate its merit as a McDojo based on its website? Elder999 may know a great deal about the Pro Martial Arts franchise as a whole or one of its Franchisees. ll.



Exactly. Look to my first post in this thread.

McDonald's are all _franchises_.

Franchise "karate studio"=_*McDojo*_

I was probably there when the term was first coined. What it means now, _to individuals_ is irrelevant, as is-as you and others have stated-the quality of instruction received therein.....


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## Dissertating (Oct 30, 2013)

Steve, 

   Thanks for the reply, took me some time to get back to it as I had to go punish my legs tonight 

I think I get what you're saying and it makes sense. For you, the term "McDojo" is not necessarily derogatory but rather a term that could be completely derogatory (bad business, bad instruction) or could be just a description of a school that has solid instruction but a few business practices that you aren't exactly keen on. I think the key is that it does not always have to be derogatory. My view on the label is based on my personal experiences where the term has basically always been used as an insult.

The heart of my reason for not liking the term is the subjectivity you mentioned. I have always seen it used in a derogatory manner. You seem to feel as I described above and I bet there are a few people out there that don't see it in a negative way at all. Perhaps a type who only use it to describe aggressive marketing without passing judgement on those methods. I think it is the flaw of the term.

If I can bother you with another question, why use a term such as "McDojo" rather than saying "I think the instruction is solid, but I personally don't like the way they are always trying to sell their curriculum videos"? Is the latter not a clearer picture of what you mean?

If I asked you a opinion of a school in your area because I was thinking about training there and you said "No, I wouldn't train there it's a McDojo." What has that told me? If I knew the definition of what you gave about the term could mean a wide range of things, like the instruction taking a back seat to profits or the occasional mandatory seminar. If I didn't know your viewpoint, but rather the general consensus mentioned earlier which was along the lines of the back seat to profits, it would be just as vague. If it were a couple things off of Daniel's list of McDojo type traits, how am I to know which ones? Maybe the traits that, you or Daniel or whoever, think places a school on the McDojo side are a non-issue for me if I know about them.

Once again, I do appreciate the reply and am not trying to be argumentative or anything like that. Truly am curious about the need for the label versus just stating the issue right out.

And thanks for that post, looking back it sheds a little more light on Daniel's post. I think your viewpoint may have been the message I missed in his. After reading yours I can see a bit of that perspective there, though a few things still don't quite reconcile with that to me (yet). Maybe with some luck Daniel will stop back by to let me know if that is the point I missed and we can flesh it out. I'm interested in his viewpoint as well.

-D.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 30, 2013)

Good morning David,

I appreciate the response.



Dissertating said:


> In all honesty I did read your post, multiple times in fact.


No doubt.  But in your restating of my statements, you clearly didn't read them carefully.  The traditional school comment being one example.  You made it plain that you were reading it differently than it was typed, although when you speculated on what I could mean, you made the same point that I was making.   



Dissertating said:


> And I honestly was just trying to give my opinion based on the points I saw you making. In your opinion I may not have grasped the nuance of what you were saying. So the overall premise I took from what you had quoted was that you felt there were indicators that made a McDojo,


Actually, I gave a composite of what people have said on this topic over the many years that it has been rehashed and some personal observations.  I don't personally use the term outside of discussions on the topic.  From a business standpoint, a school is either for profit or not for profit.  It either has par or subpar instruction.  The business model doesn't mitigate one or the other.



Dissertating said:


> which I gave an alternating point of view that some of the things can have legitimate uses or not necessarily be red flags. The overall purpose being to show a point of view that perhaps contrasted your own and furthered the conversation. I did restate your comments because I agreed with some, and some I agreed with after some modification. I will be honest that I feel much the same way about your posts. You say that you are ok with an instructor making a profit *but then you call the School owner who maintains the integrity of their art while making a profit a McDojo owner*. In my defense I did state at the very beginning that all of this was my opinion and attempted to show where it differs. And at the end I again attempted to relay that it was my opinion and to explicitly state that I was not trying to attack or be argumentative as I know how easy it is to take things people say on forums like these.


I didn't take it as an attack.  If I did, I would have said as much.  But you demonstrate in the bolded comment above that you didn't read my post carefully.  Because I didn't do that.



Dissertating said:


> I can apologize for the length. I am talkative, sometimes go off on tangents, and can even be preachy at times (I was raised southern baptist, I'm trapped and don't know how to get rid of the preachiness  ). It is my tendency to go off on tangents and be preachy that I try to write often that it is my opinion and that I am not meaning to seem like I am attacking or trying to offend anyone. I send my days talking to people and it has made me a bit chatty.
> 
> The bold was by accident. I did not bold it intentionally and am not sure how it got that way.


The length really wasn't an issue, but blog length posts don't fit quite as well into a discussion.



Dissertating said:


> I guess my "brimming over with my rebuttal" was accurate as the post was meant to be a rebuttal but not really in a negative way. I am sorry if you took it that way.


What I mean by "brimming over with your rebuttal" is that you're so focussed on writing your rebuttal that you ended up rebutting points that were never made.



Dissertating said:


> I use rhetorical questions, quite a bit both when I write and speak. Not intended to be snarky, cheeky maybe but not snarky. I would be willing to bet that most of the questions you felt were snarky were not meant to be snarky or probably even cheeky. I don't see a problem with using rhetorical questions. I use them to make or emphasize points, maybe too much but its how I am. Some of the non-rhetorical questions that you found snarky, well again I can only apologize for you finding them snarky but I assure you there was a valid (not necessarily one you agree with) point behind them. I'll try not to blog at you, though I am afraid it is another one of those personal quirks. I try to be thorough in my explanations, its a habit I have from teaching rather complex topics to people often straight out of high school. I am not saying that anything I said above was complex, just that I am used to explaining in depth. And I would rather write a hundred magazine articles or blog posts than a single scientific paper, I like the style of writing better.


I have no problem with rhetorical questions.  It was the snark that I was refering to.



Dissertating said:


> Maybe our definition of discussions are different. I responded to what you responded to me with. You gave me your point of view, I gave you and defended mine in return. You took offense either because of how I write or because you thought I was being snarky or because you felt I wasn't "getting" what you were saying, or because I gave my honest rebuttal rather than caving to your views and ended the conversation. If you had responded, I would have responded to you and by the time it was done I think we would have both clarified some misunderstandings and would have ended up with a decent approximation of what each person believes and quite possibly a better understanding of the opposing viewpoint. Real discussions take work and a willingness to do so on both sides even though they may not agree with what they're hearing/reading. I honestly wanted to better understand your point of view and the best way to do that was to confront it with my own and then see how you did so in return.


Okay, here are some of what I was refering to.

*"There is a problem with a businessperson trying to be profitable?" *
I neither said nor implied this.  You're misrepresenting my statement.

"*You are an expert on adult and child educational theory and application? "
*For all you know, I may be.  But rather than speculate on my area of expertise, respond to my statement.  It will stand or no on its own merit.  Attempting to discredit me in order to strengthen your response is unnecessary.  In any case, none of what I posted qualify as deeply held beliefs.  If you offer a compelling case to the contrary, I'm open to changing my perspective on the topic.  

*"Physical ability is not important in a physical activity?" *
This, along with your follow up comments about PT in the military, show a lack of careful reading of my post.  It isn't even close to what I said.  

*"So when you started off as a white belt your instructor taught you everything that was required all the way through the highest level in your system as a white belt, yes? "*
The rest of your paragraph was a reasonable response to what I said, but this was unnecessary.  

Perhaps they aren't meant to be snarky and probably arent, so apologies if I took them as such.



Dissertating said:


> And I do not doubt that you are supportive of commercial schools, but as you noted I have not been here for any length of time and do not know how supportive you have been in the past. You speak from the sum of your experience, as do I even if we don't always know the sum of that experience. The last two sentences that you added in may have had me approach the whole thing a little differently had I seen them before I began writing my reply, though probably not. Each of the things you noted were on your list of McDojo common denominators. Now you may have meant that in and of themselves each one does not mean a McDojo, but it did read that way for me at least. And in my defense you gave no real quantifiable way to use this list to determine what mix of these traits denotes a McDojo and other statements as mentioned above show that profit is an important part of your definition regardless of quality (the whole McDojo Shool owner that makes a profit and "remembers why (s)he teaches"). I may be dense and not understanding the hidden meaning but the water is a little muddy.


Generally, I consider homogenization and over commericialization to be bad for any product, be it martial arts, food, or cars.  If someone tells me that a school is a McDojo, but they teach an art that interest me and are conveniently located.  I check out the school and if I like what I see, I may give it a whirl.  If I don't, I won't.  About the only thing that will chase me off right away are contracts and/or bank drafting.  If I like what I see and can train without either of those, I'm willing to look deeper.  

I don't personally use the term, "McDojo" outside of these discussions precisely because it isn't universally defined and because it is a pejorative.  Also, some of the things that are associated with them are not actually bad things in and of themselves.  So, if I visit a school and don't like what I see, I don't label it as a McDojo.  I simply write it off as a bad fit for me and go elsewhere without disparging them on the web.  My common denominator list includes the negatives that are often associated witht he term, not a red flag list for people to check off.  Also, I find that many of the problems that people encounter in a martial arts studio are not apparent until you've been training there for some length of time.  Thus, without training somewhere, I wouldn't presume to judge the quality of a school.

I partially agree with Steve; the business model is part of what goes into a McDojo.  But the other part is the perception of subpar quality.  McDonalds is a successful franchise, but the general perception of their food (particularly when the term 'McDojo' was coined) is that it tastes okay, comes with fun frills, and lacks actual nutritional value.  So while the model may be part of it, it goes beyond just a business model.  

If a school is a franchise or a commercial school, I prefer to look at them based on how well they do what they do rather than on their format.  



Dissertating said:


> I really don't know how to respond to the whole "if I'm here any length of time" as though I am supposed to turn and run from the board as fast as I can because you and I had a misunderstanding.


You don't really have to respond.  People come, fire off a flurry of posts and then leave.  Others come, fire off a flury of posts and then stay.  Thus the comment, "if you're here for any length of time."

Based on your post, we probably agree on a lot regarding this subject, which is all that I was trying to communicate.



Dissertating said:


> I have a thick skin but if misunderstandings are going to be all too common then it may be best for me to *allow you the rule of your kingdom without my meddling*.


Now this* is *snarky.  I don't rule anything, be it here or anywhere else.  This was completely unnecessary and quite frankly, rude.    



Dissertating said:


> With that being said I again apologize if you took offense to anything I said or thought I was trying to do anything more than have a conversation. I will admit that maybe I did not make myself clear on some things or how I meant things. I accept my part in the misunderstanding and hope that this little blog post  helped clear up where I was coming from or my intentions or just gave a little insight into the way I write/speak that can be taken the wrong way. I truly was, and still am, interested in understanding your point of view and do feel you have as much a right to yours as I do to mine.


No worries.      Again, I appreciate the response.  I look forward to future conversations.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 30, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> No meaningful instruction in weapons that were designed based off farm implements to be used in a different era? Just pointing that out, I am well aware that the principles of these weapons can be applied to sometimes readily available everyday items (pool cues, sticks, etc). But is it really your or my place to judge the value of weapons training for other people? I choose to train in the weapons I carry with me or feel I can acquire in most instances. Predominantly my interests are in knives and firearms because I am rarely far from either. But I also enjoy more traditional weapons regardless of their day-to-day self-defense availability. I've seen a lot of schools that have weapons as part of the curriculum, traditional schools, that teach a handful of kata for each weapon, and don't practice them beyond kata. No practice or discussion of their practical application. It never seemed to bother the students. Were I teaching weapons would I want to teach practical applications? Absolutely, but that doesn't necessarily detract from the value of another school. People are enamored with weapons, they want to train in them, as a kid I wanted to train with them and not because I wanted to know how to use them to beat other people up, it was enjoyable. When you watch some of the "extreme" empty-hand and weapons forms that people create for competition that are designed to look good not be deadly do you think that they are wrong for doing so? If they find enjoyment in it, then so be it. Quality is important, but enjoyment is also important. If whatever depth you teach weapons, you are giving quality instruction in what you do teach then what is the problem? Teaching poor quality can be unethical, but we also have to remember that quality is subjective in everything including the martial arts. As far as your last statement, if an instructor adds something to their curriculum that is usually not there but that their students enjoy then this is bad? Back when I went through paramedic school my instructor made all of us learn the full medical school physical assessment that was above and beyond what was required of the curriculum. This made me a worse paramedic, yes? I bit of an extreme example, sorry. But the martial arts students learned a little bit extra about martial arts (even if not to the depth you would prefer or to be experts in the practical applications of that weapon) that they enjoyed learning and this is a qualification for a label?


This, I would like to address, but I will start a new thread, as it really goes beyond the subject of the McDojo term.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Personally, I really dislike the term "McDojo." There really is not a good definition for it because everyone has their own definition and it typically boils down to "You do something I do not or that I do not agree with, thus you are a McDojo." If we all spent the time training that we seem to spend worrying about McDojo's and what defines a McDojo, we'd all be better martial artists. The simple reality is there is no real way to define McDojo. We can only point to things we feel aren't right and say this is what constitutes a McDojo. I don't label schools this way, I label them schools I would either train at or not for whatever reason. I may not see the value in what a school is doing but if other people see the value and are willing to go to a school that I would not, more power to them. The martial arts for me is a journey and it is different for every person. Some people care about self-defense, some want a workout, some want the belt, some want weapons training, some want to compete or be on demonstration teams.
> 
> I trained at a school in Texas that was a Franchise (red flag for most) with a contract (red flag) and that required you to buy gear through their school (another red flag) that also had any number of items for sale (another red flag) and who had a sales process for new students (gasp red flag) which was considered expensive to a lot of people (everybody man their battle stations this is getting bad) with an instructor with several black belts (*feint* it's just too much). I happily paid my close to $200 a month not caring that plenty of people would label them a McDojo. It was some of the best training I'd ever had and if I hadn't moved out of Texas I would still be training there. I was also attending a Tae Kwon Do and a Krav school when I was there. The Krav school was licensed through KM worldwide (red flag), no required contract but could sign one for a discount (red flaggish), a moderate price, with plenty of add-ons you could choose to purchase (red flaggish). Happily paid my $60/month and enjoyed it (well when I wasn't about to pass out). The Tae Kwon Do place was a hole in the wall type place with an instructor who was a good technician but lacking as an instructor in many ways, no real sales system to speak of other than he would not talk about prices over the phone-you had to come in, and would often disappear from the TKD class to check on the MMA guys in the back. He was about $80/month. If I moved back to San Antonio tomorrow I'd be signed back up with the franchise and Krav studio the same day, I can't say the same about the school that most people would consider the least-McDojo out of the three.
> 
> ...



As I've said in other posts, I'm not the martial arts police.  However, that doesn't mean that I should ignore places that are a bit suspect or people who are fakes.  I call the shots like I see them.  It really has nothing to do with them doing things that I don't do.  IE:  the way they conduct belt testing.  If they want the people testing to jump up and down 10 times and say they love Karate, then rock on man...LOL.  No, I'm talking about schools/people that take the unsuspecting for a ride.  The things that are suspect should be obvious.  Hey, its 2013...everyone needs to make money.  But when you're using shady tactics to do it...no, that's not right.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> . It is not really fair or respectful to try and influence other people's choices or viewpoints about a certain school using ambiguous terms that are not clearly defined (in my opinion).



Sure it is and I've got no issues with doing it!  People ask on here all the time, about various schools.  Sorry, but I'm going to give an HONEST view of it, not sugar coat it to make someone feel good.  If I'm teaching at a school, (which I have in the past) and people inquired about testing, I'd give them an honest answer. Why?  Because anyone that I teach, is a reflection of me, that's why! If you suck and you're not ready, I'm going to tell you you're not good, when you're not. 

If someone I know personally, asked me for advice on a school, either for themselves or their kid, I'm going to guide them in the right direction.  Why send them to a place, where the belts are handed out with fries and a coke? LOL!  If they want their kid to learn something and actually earn it, without having it handed to them, I'll steer them away from certain places and towards others.


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> Which is why the whole quote is important:
> 
> It is not really fair or respectful to try and influence other people's choices or viewpoints about a certain school* using ambiguous terms that are not clearly defined (in my opinion).
> *
> ...



Sooo.....you don't think that when someone asks, we don't tell them why we don't like something?  I just don't say, "Don't go to "X" Karate school because they're a mcdojo!"  I tell them why they're a mcdojo..lol.  Oh, I also compare the questionable school to ones that I know are legit, and explain the differences between the 2.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 30, 2013)

Regarding meaningful weapon instruction, here is the thread.  http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/112285-Meaningful-weapons-programs

I welcome conversation.


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## SENC-33 (Oct 30, 2013)

I have mixed emotions about commercial schools and how they operate. Many take your money, promote easily and get you that black belt as quickly as possible when many students SHOULD be halfway to a true black belt. It took me 6 years to get my first black belt because my instructor cared far more about the "lineage" of his high level students than money. When I got it I had earned it......

After that I left and went to Muay Thai for many years before finally joining the mixed ranks focusing on Combatives and pure self defense. There are still good commercial schools who put lineage ahead of profit but they are becoming more rare IMO.


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## WaterGal (Oct 30, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> I went back and really looked at the website and found this:
> 
> *5. How many employees do I need? *
> You can start with as few as 3 to 4 employees, (with yourself as owner/manager), a Program Director, and instructors. However, franchisees who have the funds to hire additional people whose talents complement their own can grow faster.
> ...



So the business model is to have a businessperson with no martial arts experience managing a bunch of first-degree black belts.  That doesn't sound like the recipe for a great school to me.  Who's teaching the instructors, or even the students that get to first dan?


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## WaterGal (Oct 30, 2013)

SENC-33 said:


> I have mixed emotions about commercial schools and how they operate. Many take your money, promote easily and get you that black belt as quickly as possible when many students SHOULD be halfway to a true black belt. It took me 6 years to get my first black belt because my instructor cared far more about the "lineage" of his high level students than money. When I got it I had earned it.......



Well, there's that and then there's the schools that promote easily but very slowly, so they can milk that family for money for 4-6 years and _still _not turn out a quality black belt.  Our main competitor is this way. We've had a few of their old students join us, and even after 2-3 years there they couldn't hang with students we've taught for 6 months.  Fortunately these are good hardworking kids, and have shown a lot of improvement since they signed up with us.


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## K-man (Oct 30, 2013)

elder999 said:


> McDojo website here.I think.....


Certainly looks that way. Thing that puts me off slightly was that huge pile of cash in the picture that obviously goes to buy the franchise. After lease, fit-out, wages, advertising and ongoing franchise fee, how much will be left for me? Nothing like the pile of cash on the desk I bet!
:asian:


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## K-man (Oct 31, 2013)

Can I point out that assuming the ethics of a business are sound I have no issue with schools making good money. I have a number of friends making huge amounts of money from well run schools with top quality instruction. The one thing they all have in common is their independence under a loose affiliation.

My only experience of a McDojo, and I have posted this before, was where I was coming back into training after a period away and my original school had closed. I thought this McDojo sounded as if the training was similar to that I had undertaken. There was no contract but there were many gradings and fees that kept the money rolling in to the head of the organisation which is widespread here and overseas.

So far so good. For the sake of convenience I could live with that. What I had difficulty with was the quality of the instruction and the fact that the guy taking the class was wearing a black belt, with a stripe, and behaving as a black belt but with very little technical knowledge or ability. Turns out the stripe denotes he is not a black belt, just in training. Explain that in simple language.

So even with years of experience you can be sucked in to training at a McDojo. I think that information on a forum such and this is quite valuable in giving new MAs an idea of what to look for and what to avoid in finding a good school.
:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> Can I point out that assuming the ethics of a business are sound I have no issue with schools making good money. I have a number of friends making huge amounts of money from well run schools with top quality instruction.


I fully agree with this.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 31, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> So the business model is to have a businessperson with no martial arts experience managing a bunch of first-degree black belts.  That doesn't sound like the recipe for a great school to me.  Who's teaching the instructors, or even the students that get to first dan?



As it is a franchise, there is probably access to higher ranking instructors, either via seminar or traveling to train.  I'm not sticking up for the model, though qualifications 3-6 are very good ideas in my opinion.


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## K-man (Oct 31, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As it is a franchise, *there is probably access to higher ranking instructors,* either via seminar or traveling to train.  I'm not sticking up for the model, though qualifications 3-6 are very good ideas in my opinion.


Why? It's hard enough to find good quality instructors anywhere. For instance, would you teach in a place like that or would you have your own school where you could teach the way you want to teach?
:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> Why? It's hard enough to find good quality instructors anywhere. For instance, would you teach in a place like that or would you have your own school where you could teach the way you want to teach?
> :asian:


I never said "good."  I said higher ranking.  Anyway, I was responding to Watergal's query, "_Who's teaching the instructors, or even the students that get to first dan_?"

Not that I think that that is an ideal solution.


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## pgsmith (Oct 31, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Well, there's that and then there's the schools that promote easily but very slowly, so they can milk that family for money for 4-6 years and _still _not turn out a quality black belt. Our main competitor is this way. We've had a few of their old students join us, and even after 2-3 years there they couldn't hang with students we've taught for 6 months. Fortunately these are good hardworking kids, and have shown a lot of improvement since they signed up with us.



But the problem with the dismissive attitude toward the McDojo is that it doesn't really matter what type of martial artist these schools produce. There are a great many people that are much more interested in the trappings of the martial arts than they are in the actual techniques. These are the people that happily attend your corner McDojo. If the McDojo wasn't there, these folks would NOT be in a difficult school struggling hard to learn solid technique. That's not what they're after. 

As far as I'm concerned, it's far better for these folks to attend the corner McDojo and learn nothing of any real value than it is for them to stay home and watch reality TV on the couch. Also, it's better for them to bring their kids in to learn nothing of any great value than it is to leave the kid sit in front of his video game. Those that really want to learn will figure it out and move on to a better school.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 31, 2013)

pgsmith said:


> But the problem with the dismissive attitude toward the McDojo is that it doesn't really matter what type of martial artist these schools produce. There are a great many people that are much more interested in the trappings of the martial arts than they are in the actual techniques. These are the people that happily attend your corner McDojo. If the McDojo wasn't there, these folks would NOT be in a difficult school struggling hard to learn solid technique. That's not what they're after.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned, it's far better for these folks to attend the corner McDojo and learn nothing of any real value than it is for them to stay home and watch reality TV on the couch. Also, it's better for them to bring their kids in to learn nothing of any great value than it is to leave the kid sit in front of his video game. Those that really want to learn will figure it out and move on to a better school.



While there may be some truth in what you write, I think that for MOST, you're wrong.

I think the vast majority of people who study MA do so because they want to learn martial arts. Not martial cardio workout. But because they (duh!) lack any experience, they can get sucked in to a school that teaches "nothing of any great value". And because they lack any experience, the fact that what they're learning isn't useful escapes them, for quite a long time. By the time it begins to dawn on them that they're learning garbage (if it ever does, since they may not actually be doing anything that would show them that their "skills" are worthless) they've got a large investment of time and money.
Will they go elsewhere? Maybe. I think they're as likely to become disillusioned with martial arts in general and simply stop training.

If someone wants to offer martial-themed day care, then fine. If they want to offer martial themed cardio workouts, also fine. But when the training is presented as actual martial arts training, then it really ought to be something of value. The typical McDojo isn't likely to offer much of real value.


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## K-man (Oct 31, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> If someone wants to offer martial-themed day care, then fine. If they want to offer martial themed cardio workouts, also fine. But when the training is presented as actual martial arts training, then it really ought to be something of value. The typical McDojo isn't likely to offer much of real value.


I go to the gym and do a circuit type workout with an instructor most days, just an hour but enough to keep the ageing body taut and the blood pumping.

They recently introduced 'Body Combat' classes. The instructors are not boxers or martial artists so they have no real idea of the principles of weight and balance, footwork or core strength. I was invited to take part, but what they do is so far removed from what I teach, I don't want any part of it. Certainly a great cardio work out if that's what your after but nothing to do with self defence.
:asian:


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## PhotonGuy (Nov 1, 2013)

A dojo that allows students to sign up for tests at their own discretion but makes the tests hard and will fail students if they don't perform good enough at the tests to qualify for the next belt, I would not consider such a place a McDojo.


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## terryl965 (Nov 1, 2013)

A Mc Donalds on steriods


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## WaterGal (Nov 5, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> While there may be some truth in what you write, I think that for MOST, you're wrong.
> 
> I think the vast majority of people who study MA do so because they want to learn martial arts. Not martial cardio workout. But because they (duh!) lack any experience, they can get sucked in to a school that teaches "nothing of any great value". And because they lack any experience, the fact that what they're learning isn't useful escapes them, for quite a long time. By the time it begins to dawn on them that they're learning garbage (if it ever does, since they may not actually be doing anything that would show them that their "skills" are worthless) they've got a large investment of time and money.
> Will they go elsewhere? Maybe. I think they're as likely to become disillusioned with martial arts in general and simply stop training.



Agreed, very much.  While I don't think that most people that do martial arts want to be Jackie Chan or in the Olympics or be able to kill people with their bare hands or whatever, or think that their kids will/should be that either.... they do want to get something worthwhile out of what they do, and their satisfaction and engagement is much higher if they're challenged and are doing something awesome rather than being mediocre.  There's a reason that people pay $100/month to do martial arts, instead of $100/quarter to do rec league basketball or Zumba or whatever - because they're looking for more than just exercise or a social activity.


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## pgsmith (Nov 5, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> While there may be some truth in what you write, I think that for MOST, you're wrong.
> 
> I think the vast majority of people who study MA do so because they want to learn martial arts. Not martial cardio workout. But because they (duh!) lack any experience, they can get sucked in to a school that teaches "nothing of any great value". And because they lack any experience, the fact that what they're learning isn't useful escapes them, for quite a long time. By the time it begins to dawn on them that they're learning garbage (if it ever does, since they may not actually be doing anything that would show them that their "skills" are worthless) they've got a large investment of time and money.
> Will they go elsewhere? Maybe. I think they're as likely to become disillusioned with martial arts in general and simply stop training.
> ...



While what you say is technically true, people's idea of just what "martial arts" is can vary greatly. Everyone that is going to a martial arts studio wants to be learning martial arts. Most of them will firmly believe that what they're learning *is* martial arts. I've been into a large number of the local studios and can tell you that what most of them are learning is in fact martial arts, but only because they say it is. If it were up to me to label it, I would feel better giving it a different name. However, it isn't up to me. Therefore, all of those folks in those schools are happy believing in what they are learning, and why would I wish to disillusion them. 
Look up when the next 'karate' tournament happens in your area, and go watch it. They're filled with people having a good time learning ineffectual "martial arts". You can't tell me all those people aren't happy with what they're doing and would really rather learn something effective. Ultimately, they do it because they enjoy it, and they aren't doing something more serious, because they wouldn't enjoy that.

  As for me, I'll stick to my boring traditional stuff since that what I enjoy.

  Anyway, my point is that the corner karate studio fills a purpose. Not the same purpose as a more serious martial arts dojo, but a purpose none the less. Too many people love to slam them simply to make themselves feel better. I say that if they can stay in business, then good for them.


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## Kframe (Nov 5, 2013)

Problem is, some of these mcdojo don't do anything to ensure their students actually can use the stuff they teach. Balrog forgive me, but the ATA is notable for this. Out side of there odd forms which I see no useful martial application of, they teach what to my outside observer eyes to be fairly standard Tae kwon do. Were they go off the reservation, at least at the ones I visited here in my town, they don't have any meaningful contact in there sparring. So they never really get used to getting hit with force, or more importantly pressure.   

Now ill give the ATA some much needed props with regards to the things they are trying to do with there system. Such as adding in what amounts to the Gracie combative's system(white to blue)  and Optional mma rules sparring at black belt and higher.  I had to look else were for my martial arts after  my mma gym closed because they wanted confiscatory rates to train there. I don't have $150 monthly to train, on a 1 year contract.. OF course I realize by there strategic locations that im not the target demographic, they want upper middle class yuppies with more disposable income. 

Look, most here have no problem with the very rare mcdojo that actually has good martial instruction. Problem is those are are. In order for places like ATA and other mcdojo to stay in business they have to keep getting new blood and get the old blood out. It becomes more important to get new trainees then to improve and retain the older members. Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank.. That Is a self perpetuating BS wheel imho.


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## Kframe (Nov 5, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Like I wrote, I read about them a lot but I've never actually met one.  I suspect that they're far less common than the impression is.  There's so much incredulity over the ones that exist that they get magnified in our consciousness, much like the Road Rage incidents have been.



I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them  9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.

 Now ill say this, they were mostly respectfull but some were not. Half way through the class the obese teacher lady stopped and started lecturing about how if they don't take training seriously she wont take them seriously. That testing for a new rank was a privilege not a right and she will not test them. Was kinda shocked about that lecture in a ATA setting.   

I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.


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## K-man (Nov 5, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.


Total thread drift, I know, but I use the plastic boards because they are more to a standard than wood and when I was teaching kids I always knew what they could break, not that we ever did lots of breaking.
:s459:


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## Kframe (Nov 5, 2013)

I get that, I called them odd because I had never seen them before.  Not that it would have mattered because most of them could not split any of them.  They didn't even have good technique, they didn't have any balance and no concept of power generation.


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## Hyoho (Nov 6, 2013)

A dojo that takes any money that is not just for expenses. Dojo is a Japanese word. The Budo Charter set out by the Nippon Budo Renmei clearly defines Budo as non profit.


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## K-man (Nov 6, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> A dojo that takes any money that is not just for expenses. Dojo is a Japanese word. The Budo Charter set out by the Nippon Budo Renmei clearly defines Budo as non profit.


How so?
http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/budochater.html

Profit is not a dirty word, even in Martial Arts. A lot of my friends run successful MA businesses and I can promise you, not one of them run a 'McDojo'.
:asian:


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## lklawson (Nov 6, 2013)

pgsmith said:


> Anyway, my point is that the corner karate studio fills a purpose. Not the same purpose as a more serious martial arts dojo, but a purpose none the less.


They seem to be pretty serious about what they do.



> Too many people love to slam them simply to make themselves feel better.


Sometimes even subconsciously by how they describe them such as using the term "serious."  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them  9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.
> 
> Now ill say this, they were mostly respectfull but some were not. Half way through the class the obese teacher lady stopped and started lecturing about how if they don't take training seriously she wont take them seriously. That testing for a new rank was a privilege not a right and she will not test them. Was kinda shocked about that lecture in a ATA setting.


Fair enough.



> I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.


Re-break boards.  They're marketed as a way to save money.  Supposedly, they offer the same resistance as a regular board but can be put back together again and reused.  I remember when they first came out 25 or 30 years ago.  I tried them out then.  They, indeed, could be used over and over.  The ones I tried were actually harder to break.  A real board will give resistance and then a sudden give/snap.  These offered continual resistance through about 20 or 30 degrees of "bend" before release.  They were heavier than wood.  And you had to make sure your strike was exactly centered on the "crack" or you'd suffer for it.  Even then, the force required to break it was different from wood.  It felt nothing like breaking boards.  That said, this was a very early example.  Hopefully, they've improved.

OTOH, I am not a advocate of board breaking.  While I won't call it "pointless," I believe that the majority of breaking is far less impressive and instructive than most of those doing the breaks realize.  Around 15 or 20 years ago I was watching a Home Improvement type program and the host was discussing ceiling joists and the reason that the wood grain runs the length.  To illustrate his point, he took a standard 1x12 cut board, just like is used in most breaking, placed it between two saw-horses and asked his audience if they thought he could "karate" the board.  Then he proceeded to do break it with a badly formed knife-hand.  OK, I know; a grown adult and only one board.  But still, what did it prove?  That his technique was good?  

http://www.instructables.com/id/No-Experience-Necessary-Board-Breaking/

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 6, 2013)

K-man said:


> How so?
> http://www.nipponbudokan.or.jp/shinkoujigyou/budochater.html
> 
> Profit is not a dirty word, even in Martial Arts. A lot of my friends run successful MA businesses and I can promise you, not one of them run a 'McDojo'.
> :asian:


I read the link, and unless it is abbreviated, there is no mention of profit in any way whatsoever.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 6, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> A dojo that takes any money that is not just for expenses. Dojo is a Japanese word. The Budo Charter set out by the Nippon Budo Renmei clearly defines Budo as non profit.


The profitability of a studio is not a deciding factor in whether people categorize a school as a McDojo.  While I've never seen a not for profit studio called a McDojo, it isn't the reason that the term was coined.  While there isn't a universal definition, this is one of the common demoninators of people's perception of the term.

And outside of JMA, the Nippon Budo Renmei has no place in defining the nature of a martial arts studio.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them  9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.


I've seen a few non ATA schools that are like this too.  I'm personally rather torn on the subject of child black belts.  I view a black belt as being a fairly lowly rank; you've learned the basics.  But my perception is definitely not universal, majority, or even a large minority in the US.



Kframe said:


> Now ill say this, they were mostly respectfull but some were not. Half way through the class the obese teacher lady stopped and started lecturing about how if they don't take training seriously she wont take them seriously. That testing for a new rank was a privilege not a right and she will not test them. Was kinda shocked about that lecture in a ATA setting.


Good for her.  But can we leave her obesity out it?  It really has no bearing on the discussion or on her ability to teach.



Kframe said:


> I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.


I've never used the rebreakable boards, but from what I understand, they're harder to break than regular boards.


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## Gnarlie (Nov 6, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> .
> 
> 
> I've never used the rebreakable boards, but from what I understand, they're harder to break than regular boards.



They can be, depending on the type and age. I have two new ones that I have as yet been unable to break without the aid of a lumphammer. 

Gnarlie


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## K-man (Nov 6, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I read the link, and unless it is abbreviated, there is no mention of profit in any way whatsoever.


Exactly why I posted it.


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2013)

PhotonGuy said:


> A dojo that allows students to sign up for tests at their own discretion but makes the tests hard and will fail students if they don't perform good enough at the tests to qualify for the next belt, I would not consider such a place a McDojo.



Since you seem to be such a fan of this method, let me ask you this.  What do you think about time standards for each rank?  In other words, how much time in grade should a student put in before they advance to the next?  

And as for this method...well, I still stand by what I've said before...the instructor should have a say in whether or not the student is ready.  I would think it'd make more sense to have the inst. determine whether or not the student is ready, that way, the odds of failure tend to be lower, rather than the student assuming they're ready, only to stand up in front, do a poor job, fail, and have to retest.  Why not just do it right from the get go?


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## Kframe (Nov 6, 2013)

Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo.  It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction.  IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone..  Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion.  This is typical of Mcdojo's  their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.

Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese?  If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo.  It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction.  IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone..  Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion.  This is typical of Mcdojo's  their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.
> 
> Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese?  If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?



I'm pretty sure I'm not the only overweight instructor here. 

Perhaps you might consider that you don't know anything about them. Perhaps they're chronically on steroids for a respiratory illness. Perhaps there are endocrine issues. Perhaps there are orthopedic issues that prevent them from exercising the way they would like.
None of that affects their knowledge, or their ability to pass that knowledge on.

My master is also overweight. We do not have a tourney focused school, but we do take students to tourneys on occasion. In the last year, we've taken students to three open (any style) events. We did not have students in every event, but every single one of our students finished in the top three in their class. As a matter of fact, the only bronze medal one of our students brought home was in a class that other students of ours took gold and silver.

I'd say we're doing a fairly creditable job of training these students, despite our obesity.

Your post, I will say bluntly, was more than a little insulting. In some ways, even more so because you yourself are still considerably more overweight than some of those you're insulting.


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## Kframe (Nov 6, 2013)

Im not offering to teach martial arts. That's the big difference.   How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape? The nature of just training will help you get into shape. The only way I see it happeing, is if the instructor is spending there time talking and not training with the class. http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=657

Yes I am a large guy, and im working on my weight, but if your going to teach the arts of mars, you need to be in shape.  You should be able to you know actually fight for more then 40 seconds with out dying..  

I just don't trust over weight instructors, just as I wouldn't trust my self to train me if I was thin..


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Im not offering to teach martial arts. That's the big difference.   How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape? The nature of just training will help you get into shape. The only way I see it happeing, is if the instructor is spending there time talking and not training with the class. http://www.fighttimes.com/magazine/magazine.asp?article=657
> 
> Yes I am a large guy, and im working on my weight, but if your going to teach the arts of mars, you need to be in shape.  You should be able to you know actually fight for more then 40 seconds with out dying..
> 
> I just don't trust over weight instructors, just as I wouldn't trust my self to train me if I was thin..



As I said, I am overweight. 
Last time I entered a tourney, I took silver in weapons sparring and in open sparring. In the open sparring, I stepped down from my class to the 35-40 YO class. Despite fighting people ~15 years younger than me, I had no difficulty going considerably longer than 40 seconds without dying. Nor do I have any difficulty going several rounds with the 18-20YO BBs in our program. 

And of course, a fight (as opposed to sparring) rarely lasts more than 30 seconds anyway.

I do not train with the class. I'm there to TEACH, not train. If I'm training, I'm not paying as much attention to the students as I ought to be.


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## Kframe (Nov 6, 2013)

K man im not attacking you, I have never had any issues with you in the past.   I am personally stating my opinion and what I have observed from certified Mcdojo's in my area.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo.  It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction.  IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone..  Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion.  This is typical of Mcdojo's  their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.  I've had instructors who are svelte and trim who were horrible and one instructor who was coincidentally female who started off obese and eventually was morbidly obese, though not as heavy as the lady you mentioned.  This lady was an excellent instructor.  Her school was not a McDojo.  I learned a lot from her, and she really helped me to make some breakthroughs in technique that two previous svelte instructors had been unable to help me with.  Not that they were bad instructors, but she had the key to the puzzle that I was trying to unlock.  

I got to know her well enough to know why she was the way that she was.  She didn't have an easy life outside of the dojang.  As a business owner, she stumbled a lot, but as a human being and as an instructor, she was wonderful.

And lest anyone think that I'm being defensive, I'm not.  I happen to be one of the svelte, trim people who would look at home on the cover of an MA catalog wearing their featured gi or dobok.



Kframe said:


> Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese?  If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?


You shouldn't trust anyone based on their looks.  I tend to look at the quality of the students they turn out and how I feel about the environment after a class.  I look at the black belts/yudansha/equivalent and see what their practice looks like, as that says more about the teacher than the teacher's physique.  

But even if the students look like the Korean Olympic team, if I don't feel right about the environment, then I move on.  So far, the weight of the instructor has never been a factor in a negative training environment for me.  The issues generally are more in the instructional culture of the studio.

There was a time when I would subject myself to unhealthy training environments because the studio selection wasn't all that great, but now I have lots of choices in many arts to choose from and I have a much clearer idea of what I want from a school than I did when I was younger.

Additionally, the McDojos that I have encountered have been owned and staffed largely (though by no means exclusively) by people who were at healthy weights.  Perhaps it's the area, but I haven't found weight and McDojo-ism to have any direct connection.

To each their own.  I'm not going to tell you not to feel as you do, and based on your response, this seems to be a fairly deeply seated belief for you, but I respectfully disagree.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Im not offering to teach martial arts. That's the big difference.   How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape?


Age, injury, various medications for conditions that crop up as people age, emotional issues due to going through rough personal issues, or just plain daily stress.

And yes, bad eating habits and more time teaching than training can also do that.  Too much regular intake of beer, chips, and Tex-Mex BBQ can undo even good workout habits.  And martial arts instructors are as human as anyone else, regardless of how anime and Hollywood portray us, and have their own areas of vulnerability.

I had to take time to really focus on my personal training after I started teaching.  Teaching takes time.  I work hard to put together lessons and to look for ways to improve my classes for my students.  When I'm teaching, I tend to only 'train' in the capacity of being a partner.  My main function is to see what my students are doing and to help identify and correct training issues. 

The fact that I also fence epee, small sword, and train in a variety of things outside of the art that I teach also helps.


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## Kframe (Nov 6, 2013)

You have to understand,  I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.   

Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.


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## K-man (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> K man im not attacking you, I have never had any issues with you in the past.   I am personally stating my opinion and what I have observed from certified Mcdojo's in my area.


Never for one moment thought you were attacking me.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You have to understand,  I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.
> 
> Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.



You don't need to hate yourself. You also don't need to judge someone's knowledge and ability to teach based on something that's irrelevant to those two things. 
Judge me by the quality of my students. I'm OK with that.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> . I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.



I feel you may have a fantasy view of martial arts and martial arts teachers.


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## jks9199 (Nov 6, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You have to understand,  I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.
> 
> Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.



Are your feelings towards yourself being unfairly projected onto these people?  The simple reality is that MA instructors often don't have the luxury of hours and hours of time to work on fitness and run their schools. Sometimes its more than a little challenging simply to fit your own MA training in with teaching duties...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> I know this is in regards to kid black belts. When I visited the ATA schools in my area, I happened to come in the middle of a kids class. There were multiple Tween and under black belts there. Litterally a whole room full of them  9-13 year old black belts at least 20 of them.



Korean styles tend to promote kids to black belt if they work hard an stick with it long enough, I don't think having a bunch of 10-year old black belts is, in itself, a sign of being a "McDojo".  The question just is  - do they work hard?  Are they any good?  It sounds like these kids had terrible behavior, which makes me wonder why they were promoted.



> I also noticed that during there breaking, the were not using wooden boards but these odd, presplit plastic things. The fact that they were presplit means nothing because most of them couldn't break it apart even after multiple attempts.



That's a rebreakable board, a training tool.  They come in various difficulties, to simulate different sized boards.  They're a good way for people to practice doing a new board break or combo without wasting real boards.  My question would be: what techniques were they using?  Are we talking side kick or tornado kick?


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## WaterGal (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo.  It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction.  IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone..  Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion.  This is typical of Mcdojo's  their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.
> 
> Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese?  If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?



Agreed. I don't expect a martial arts teacher to have cut muscles like a movie star, I sure as hell don't, but they should not be obese.  How can they teach people to be more fit, to be fast and strong and strike hard and have endurance, if they're 100 pounds overweight?  My personal experience is that people who are at that level of obesity often struggle to even just walk a mile - how can they lead an intense workout class?


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## WaterGal (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You have to understand,  I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am. Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.
> 
> Maybe I am being to judgemental of her, IDK. I just feel that warriors should look like warriors.



Don't hate yourself!  Being obese isn't something to be ashamed of or to hate yourself for - it's a health problem.  And It sounds like you're working hard to improve yourself. You said you've lost 100 lbs, right?  That's fantastic.  Keep going!  I bet in another year you'll be under 300 lbs.


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## Mauthos (Nov 7, 2013)

This thread has taken an interesting swing regarding the weight issue and it is something quite important to me as I too used to have the opinion that an instructor should not be obese.

That was until I developed diabetes.

Now at the time I was still in the military, relatively fit and although I have always had a small belly I would not have been considered fat let alone obese.  However, as I adjusted to my new life style and being a civillian with the addition of insulin I rapidly gained weight, approximately 3 stone and I definitely felt obese and looked it.

At this time I had also just started teaching and I hated people turning up who instantly judged me for the size I was.  Now I believe that you must be in some sort of good physical shape and fitness to be an effective martial artist and therefore the first 30 minutes of my lessons always comprise of a small circuit with the intent to wear my students out and push them (other reason apart from fitnes is to tire the muscles a bit as then they always seem to lose that tensness that beginners have if a little exhausted).

The problem I encountered was as I was running the class I did not participate with the exercise and would only state when one would be struggling, that I would only make them do things that I myself could do.  Therefore, obviously when they struggled I would get the doubtful looks and the calls to prove it which meant that sure enough, I had to prove it.

Now my seniors do not question my ability, they have been with me long enough to know my ability as a teacher is sound and that in fact I can do everything I put them through.

Luckily, with my diabetes under control I have lost most of the weight I have put on and I am aiming to lose another stone to be truly happy.  This will make me just under 15 stone.  So I am still a heavy guy, I must point out that most of the men in my family are short and stocky and I am happy that now I look more weighed down by muscle than fat.  

What I am trying to say with this long winded post, is don't judge a book by its cover.  At my fatest I was still training hard, back then and even to this day I do an average of 500 press ups and 500 sit ups a day.  When I was at my largest I completed insanity twice, without cheating, I attended body combat sessions and circuits on a weekly basis on top of my tang soo do training and kick boxing.  However, due to the illness and the medication, I couldn't shift the weight, but believe me I could still train hard and fighting in the ring or on the matts was still my favoured aspect of martial arts. I was still respected by my peers and I could still hold my own, usually my cardio out stripping those I fought against.

So, please, judge someone on their merits, their students, their ability to impart their knowledge, until you get to know the person you can never truly understand why they are the way they are.


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## Kframe (Nov 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I feel you may have a fantasy view of martial arts and martial arts teachers.



How is it a fantasy? Martial arts were originally for warriors.  I think its a little disingenuous to say its a fantasy.  Saying I have a fantasy is a subtle way to say you think im a child on his mommies computer..  Sorry I am not a child, I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors, protectors, the sheepdogs.  This view point does not make me immature nor does it mean I live in a fantasy.


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## Kframe (Nov 7, 2013)

Muathos and others.    

I see what your saying.  Its just that I have a hard time taking people seriously, if I don't know them, if they are that heavy and claim to teach a martial art.  There  is 2 sportive karate and 1 wtf/kkw tkd school in my town. With out a hitch every single one of the instructors and students at each of these places is not only trim, but in excellent physical shape.  Especially the 52 year old TKD owner and head instructor.  So you can imagine my shock when  I started going into the more mcdojoish schools like the Trias school and the ATA and noticed that most of them were heavy and obese.  

Maybe I am judging people, the way they judge me.. Oh look another thing to meditate on today..


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## lklawson (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Daniel, I mentioned her obesity because it is pertinent to the discussion of mcdojo.  It shows the level of intensity and the overall quality of the instruction.  IMHO the proper learning of martial arts, should foster physical fitness. I know how HUGE I was when I started martial arts, over 420lbs. I have lost nearly a hundred pounds with a good diet and martial arts alone..  Her weight is very much pertinent to the discussion.  This is typical of Mcdojo's  their training is usually so pathetic, so slow and low paced that you don't ever get even a mild work out in, let alone learn a martial art.


I don't think I agree.  Many martial arts today are billed as dual purpose exercise programs and martial programs.  To be fair, this has been a common theme in western expectations of eastern martial arts for a very long time.  That aside, it is not the goal of every martial art to foster a low body mass index or anything else that we, with modern western sensibilities, might consider "good health."  The goal was to to kill the opponent.  Sometimes having an extra layer of fat would have been advantageous.  It provides extra padding which can act almost like armor and the increased mass give advantages that no one can deny.  There's a reason that boxing, judo, and wrestling have weight classes.  It's the same reason that Sumoka appear to be such lard-ohs.  But they're not.  Some modern research has indicated that "fat" people tend to have more muscle beneath their fat.  Makes sense.  They have to in order to move the extra weight around.

My experience is that fat people have the advantage of mass on their side.  It's hard to over-estimate that advantage.  But usually they also gas out really quick.  Usually, not always, because they have very poor cardio.  But a fat person can have decent cardio too.  It's uncommon, I admit, but possible.  And if the "fat" person also has skill in addition to mass and cardio, then the lighter person is well and truly borked.  "Fat" people can move just as quick as anyone else, and they can cover short distances surprisingly fast.

I recall a martial arts friend of mine who related that "in the old country" the most dangerous instructor he know was an over-weight, chain-smoking, alcoholic.  He lived hard, trained hard, fought hard, and expected to die young.



> Why should I trust her or any other martial arts instructor, mcdojo or not when they are morbidly obese?  If they cant get there own self together what makes them think they can teach anyone a activity this is decidedly physical in nature?


Maybe, instead, you should judge her on whether or not she's skilled at the martial art she's attempting to teach and whether or not she can effectively teach it.  What she looks like is a pretty arbitrary method of determining skill.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> How can anyone in a physical art like TKD or any other striking art for that matter, not be in good shape?


You know the old saying, "The bigger they are, the harder they hit."



> You should be able to you know actually fight for more then 40 seconds with out dying..


Being "fat" doesn't mean that they can't.  Oh, and do you know how long the average "fight" lasts?



> I just don't trust over weight instructors, just as I wouldn't trust my self to train me if I was thin..


That's your bias, though.  It's not objective.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 7, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I had to take time to really focus on my personal training after I started teaching.  Teaching takes time.  I work hard to put together lessons and to look for ways to improve my classes for my students.  When I'm teaching, I tend to only 'train' in the capacity of being a partner.  My main function is to see what my students are doing and to help identify and correct training issues.


Ain't that the truth!  And it's easy to slip into the Instructor mind set/lifestyle.  You don't really lose skill but what you have tends to atrophy slowly and it takes special effort beyond what it used to in order to "grow" in your art.  Every martial arts instructor I've ever discussed the subject with has said something similar.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Martial arts were originally for warriors.  ...  I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors, protectors, the sheepdogs.


Sure, warriors, soldiers, protectors, law enforcement, etc.  But none of those professions necessitate a svelte, trim physique.  Of all of them, soldiers are probably the only ones who's profession enforces regular fitness to any great degree.  

But all fighting systems are not military in nature.  Hapkido was developed as civilian self defense outside of the military.  Western fencing (historical, classical, or sport) was developed as civilian self defence for gentlemen and the weapons used had little military applicability.  Boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, etc. are also not "warrior" specific.

Then you have sumo, where obesity is kind of a given.

In any case, morbid obesity is certainly problematic for a good number of reasons, but it's problematic mainly for the health of the person themselves and this should not be conflated with McDojo-ism and also is unlikely to cause someone to die of exertion in an encounter that exceeds forty seconds.

One other thought is that while anyone weighing 420 pounds is facing some serious health risks, being exceptionally thin is no guarantee of being in the pink of health.  Also, norms of what constitutes being simply overweight shift from time to time.  

As far as instructors go, the ability to transmit knowledge and skill is separate from being exceptionally skilled as a technician.  A good instructor who has suffered a debilitating injury that prevents him or her from demonstrating certain techniques will find a way to get the job done.  Usually via a senior student or assistant instructor.  Same goes for someone who's weight, size, or age makes certain techniques difficult for them to demonstrate.


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## lklawson (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You have to understand,  I HATE my self. I hate what I am. I struggle every day to deal with it. I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors. Warriors are not as big as I am.


*Of course *you feel this way.  That's what our society has been telling you since you were born.  It's a perfectly natural and normal reaction.  Everyone talks about the Barbie effect and the Body Dismorphic issues that we're foisting upon our girls, but what no one talks about is that it's just as much a sham being foisted upon men as well.

http://www.livescience.com/973-men-muscle-body-image-problems.html




> Thus I am fighting to rid my self of this poison.


Trying to get to a more healthy weight is only one element of this.  Another is to actively avoid reinforcing artificial body image stereotypes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 7, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Agreed. I don't expect a martial arts teacher to have cut muscles like a movie star, I sure as hell don't, but they should not be obese.  How can they teach people to be more fit, to be fast and strong and strike hard and have endurance, if they're 100 pounds overweight?  My personal experience is that people who are at that level of obesity often struggle to even just walk a mile - how can they lead an intense workout class?


Because not all martial arts are about being "fit." At least not by Western standards.  They're about hurting people and breaking their toys.  Often being "fit" can facilitate those goals.  Sometimes it's irrelevant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> How is it a fantasy? Martial arts were originally for warriors.  I think its a little disingenuous to say its a fantasy.  Saying I have a fantasy is a subtle way to say you think im a child on his mommies computer..  Sorry I am not a child, I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors, protectors, the sheepdogs.  This view point does not make me immature nor does it mean I live in a fantasy.


Quick Question:

This picture here = 
A) Fat Assed, Flabby-Gut, Man-Boobs, lazy slacker
 or 
B) A painting of actual Shaolin Monks from the Monastery?

 


This picture = 
A) Slope-shouldered out-of-shape dough-boy 
or
B) Kublai Khan, bad-assed conquering Mongol Emperor of doom?



This picture here = 
A) Unrealistic, comic-book inspired fantasy
or
B) What martial artists and "warriors" are supposed to look like?



Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## K-man (Nov 7, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Quick Question:
> 
> This picture here =
> A) Fat Assed, Flabby-Gut, Man-Boobs, lazy slacker
> ...


I'd just like to know how in the hell they got *my* picture on the cover of that WC DVD!


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## ballen0351 (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> How is it a fantasy? Martial arts were originally for warriors.  I think its a little disingenuous to say its a fantasy.  Saying I have a fantasy is a subtle way to say you think im a child on his mommies computer..  Sorry I am not a child, I have always believed that martial arts were for warriors, protectors, the sheepdogs.  This view point does not make me immature nor does it mean I live in a fantasy.



For starters the last warrior I saw was at the air port he was flying home from Iraq and he was wearing a uniform.  Can't say I've seen much more then house wives, accountants, business men, and kids at the dojo.  Hell I'm a cop, been on SWAT for several years when I was younger, and a former Marine and I don't consider myself a "warrior". How many battles has your instructors been in?  Mine grew in is the projects of Miami he's been in tons of life or death fights he dosent think he's a warrior.  
I'm not saying your a kid but I do think you have some fantasy view of martial arts if you believe that are for warriors.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 7, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Because not all martial arts are about being "fit." At least not by Western standards.  They're about hurting people and breaking their toys.  Often being "fit" can facilitate those goals.  Sometimes it's irrelevant.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


Research into the old gladiators diet showed them to be slightly over weight and ate a high caloric diet.  As already mentioned the fatty layer was vital to protect them from serious injuries when slashed and cut.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 7, 2013)

K-man said:


> I'd just like to know how in the hell they got *my* picture on the cover of that WC DVD!



I like your beard how did you get it into 2 points like that?


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## Kframe (Nov 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> For starters the last warrior I saw was at the air port he was flying home from Iraq and he was wearing a uniform.  Can't say I've seen much more then house wives, accountants, business men, and kids at the dojo.  Hell I'm a cop, been on SWAT for several years when I was younger, and a former Marine and I don't consider myself a "warrior". How many battles has your instructors been in?  Mine grew in is the projects of Miami he's been in tons of life or death fights he dosent think he's a warrior.
> I'm not saying your a kid but I do think you have some fantasy view of martial arts if you believe that are for warriors.



Before my gym closed, my instructor served in Iraq as well. I consider him a warrior. You have your definition of warrior I have mine.    Just because my view of something is different then yours does not mean I live in a fantasy.

This whole  discussion is moot now for me at least.. I just got some really bad news today regarding my son and I may have to quit martial arts to pay for his specialized needs... 

So that being what it is, if I have to stop MA, then im going to dive full time into HIIT and obliterate this problem.


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## Kframe (Nov 7, 2013)

Honestly how many fights did that Khan guy actually get into him self. By necessity leaders don't go to the front lines and fight..  Id rather have the bad *** looking fit and trim WC guy having my back any day and twice on sunday..  

Whats even funnier is that post I made about hating my self I didn't even intend to post. It was what was on my mind and I just let it out. That was probably the most intensely personal post I have ever made on this forum. 

Look I don't trust heavy people because I don't trust my self and my ability to deal with attacks. Sure I have sparred many 5x5 mma rounds but that does not mean I can handle a real fight.. Its because I don't trust my self I don't trust others that are over weight. 

 Im not alone in this either, its a common thought on sherdog as well. They don't respect over weight instructors, for the same reasons I stated. There are a lot of professional fighters over there as well. Its hard to discount what they have to say. 

I get im projecting my insecurities on them. I also just came to the realization I likely have a damned eating disorder.

Edit to add, In case you were wondering, I tend to open my mind and let flow out what it is im feeling. Some times it feels good to get this out..


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## ballen0351 (Nov 7, 2013)

Best wishes on your son.  I'll say prayers for you both.


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## Kframe (Nov 7, 2013)

Im hoping that it wont come down to me quiting ma, but you gotta do what you gotta do.


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## K-man (Nov 7, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I like your beard how did you get it into 2 points like that?


Com'on, be nice! You're looking at the wrong guy!  
I'm a legend ... in my own mind!

:s92:


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 7, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Honestly how many fights did that Khan guy actually get into him self. By necessity leaders don't go to the front lines and fight..  Id rather have the bad *** looking fit and trim WC guy having my back any day and twice on sunday..



Um.... he wasn't exactly elected to the position of ruler of the Mongol Horde...


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## jks9199 (Nov 8, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Im hoping that it wont come down to me quiting ma, but you gotta do what you gotta do.



Discuss the situation with your teachers or prospective teachers. They may be able yo work something out...

I hope your son is OK. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## lklawson (Nov 8, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Honestly how many fights did that Khan guy actually get into him self. By necessity leaders don't go to the front lines and fight..


It was part of their tradition and culture.



> Id rather have the bad *** looking fit and trim WC guy having my back any day and twice on sunday..


He's not real.



> Whats even funnier is that post I made about hating my self I didn't even intend to post. It was what was on my mind and I just let it out. That was probably the most intensely personal post I have ever made on this forum.


We appreciate the compliment.  We're glad that you feel you can be more honest here than elsewhere.  You're among friends.



> Im not alone in this either, its a common thought on sherdog as well. They don't respect over weight instructors, for the same reasons I stated.


I know.  Like I wrote, it's common.



> There are a lot of professional fighters over there as well. Its hard to discount what they have to say.


If you look in the Heavy Weight divisions, you'll see more than one fighter with a bit of love-handles.



> I get im projecting my insecurities on them. I also just came to the realization I likely have a damned eating disorder.


That sucks.  My wife is a State Certified Counselor.  Through her, I've learned a lot about many of these sort of difficulties.  You know there's something deeper which is troubling you.  The Internet isn't the right place to try to identify and treat it.  If you really believe this is an issue for you, please try to find someone who can counsel you.  Sometimes your Church will have free counseling services for members.



> Edit to add, In case you were wondering, I tend to open my mind and let flow out what it is im feeling. Some times it feels good to get this out..


It can feel cathartic but it probably doesn't help in the long run except for occasional personal revelations such as you think you might have just had.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 8, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Discuss the situation with your teachers or prospective teachers. They may be able yo work something out...


+1 on this.  Most instructors are willing to work with folks.



> I hope your son is OK.


And again, on this too.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 8, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Honestly how many fights did that Khan guy actually get into him self. By necessity leaders don't go to the front lines and fight..


Probably a lot.  As was observed earlier, you don't get elected to be the leader of the Mongol Horde.  Looking like a body builder doesn't mean much.  A lot of football players, while obviously strong and possessing a lot of endurance, are not that ripped and cut.  Also, look at the physiques of Vaslily Alexeyev in his prime and compare him to Mr. Universe/Olympia (any year).  If you picked the stronger man by the cut of his physique, you'd have picked the wrong man.



Kframe said:


> Id rather have the bad *** looking fit and trim WC guy having my back any day and twice on sunday..


Keep him.  I'll take Big Van Vader.


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## Kframe (Nov 8, 2013)

Things are looking up, we may qualify for some assistance with the specialized school he has to go to now.. He is only 7(autistic) and got removed permanently from the public school because they just cant deal with someone on the spectrum.  Hopefully we get approved for his SSD and that will cover all his special needs therapy and schooling.. 

I get it guys I shouldn't project my self hatred on these other teachers..  Judge lest ye be judged. I just have a hard time imagining them being athletic when the hammer drop.  Its fricking stupid of me to think that, come to think of it. Considering that at 330lbs I did a 5x5 sparring and a 4x5(4 rounds 5 mins) on the same day and didn't drop till the end of the nearly hour of straight up sparring..  

I want to get some counciling but I don't want to risk finances till I get my son sorted out. I may not need the help then. Illl feel a hell of a lot better when im under 300 for good(again.. ill never take a dietary holiday again.. ) 

Part of my desire to be trim is that I wanted to do a cage fight. At my height(5'8") and reach(70") the 155-165lb weight class was perfect for me.  Now that im starting Budo taijutsu I need to put my desire to fight on the burner.  Cage fighting isn't compatible with the ideals of the art.

To add to the mcdojo discussion. 

How about tips for newbies. Things inexperienced can look for to tip them off. 

I have a few to start it off. 

I visited a local karate place, before I found the BBT.  

He Claimed to be a high rank in tkd,karate, arinis and some kind of jiujitsu.   When I asked him which kinds, he would not tell me which flavor of tkd or karate he was, nor who his instructors were or where he trained.  His beginner adult class was 30mins twice aweek, until you hit a certain belt then you could go to the regular class. All the while the tuition was $100 a month on contract.  Imagine spending that much time in a beginner class till you get rank up to join the proper class. You cant learn anything in 30 mins twice a week. 

That is my contribution to the spotting the mcdojo for newbs idea.


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## WaterGal (Nov 8, 2013)

lklawson said:


> Because not all martial arts are about being "fit." At least not by Western standards.  They're about hurting people and breaking their toys.  Often being "fit" can facilitate those goals.  Sometimes it's irrelevant.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



A person who's got strong muscles and doesn't get winded and is light and fast on their feet is going to have a real advantage in a fight - especially in a sport-style art like the poster was talking about.  It's certainly possible for an obese person to be skilled at techniques that can harm someone, but they're going to have a disadvantage over someone in better shape.

Also, just... someone that's exercising even a few hours a week and eating a reasonably healthy diet will not stay obese.  They might not look like Bruce Lee, but they won't be 400 lbs. And in a sport-style art, they _should_ be getting in at least a few hours a week of decent exercise.  So why are they still obese?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 8, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Also, just... someone that's exercising even a few hours a week and eating a reasonably healthy diet will not stay obese.  They might not look like Bruce Lee, but they won't be 400 lbs. And in a sport-style art, they _should_ be getting in at least a few hours a week of decent exercise.  So why are they still obese?



So in your world, nobody has medical conditions (like the ones mentioned earlier in the thread). What a nice world it must be.


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## Don Daly (Nov 9, 2013)

If a "martial arts school" is selling belts like hamburgers its a McDojo.


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## Don Daly (Nov 9, 2013)

Seriously, If a school tells you, that you can earn a black belt in 1-2 years as long as you pay a certain amount, they are just selling worthless paper certificates and meaningless belts.  I also tell people that if the instructor cannot tell you the name of the style and what styles it developed out of, it is probably phony.


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## WaterGal (Nov 10, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> So in your world, nobody has medical conditions (like the ones mentioned earlier in the thread). What a nice world it must be.



There are very, very few medical conditions that will cause someone to gain/not lose weight if they are burning more calories than they take in.  

Now, I know personally that some medical conditions will absolutely make it harder to lose weight, as well some medications. I have a medical condition that has required me to take a medication like that since I was 16 years old, and I also have a "big boned" type of body structure. I'm never gonna be super-skinny.  But exercise and healthy eating keeps me only a few pounds into the BMI overweight category.


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## Big Don (Nov 10, 2013)

I saw a pick up the other day with an ad on it's back window"
Gymnastics*Dance*Day Care* Rock Wall* Martial Arts* Birthday Parties!
That, is a Mc Dojo...


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## geezer (Nov 10, 2013)

Big Don said:


> I saw a pick up the other day with an ad on it's back window"
> Gymnastics*Dance*Day Care* Rock Wall* Martial Arts* Birthday Parties!
> That, is a Mc Dojo...



Exactly. And I'm not sure it's a bad thing at all. For a lot of parents, that is a much better option for what to do with your kid's than using video-games as a babysitter. It's just good to know what you are getting, and more importantly, _what you are not getting.

_That is to say, you aren't going to get real quality training in gymnastics, rock climbing, or martial arts if any of those things become important to you.

I have a friend who runs a financially successful TKD studio that caters to kids. You could call it a McDojo. Most of his business focuses on the younger kids. He has a "Tiger-belt" program where they run up throu a bunch of colored belts and tape stripes until they get to black. The kids love it, they get a bit fitter and more flexible, learn a little about discipline, respect and working to acheive an objective. All good. 

...And _legitimate_ too, in my book. Because a "Tiger black-belt" translates to something like a yellow or orange belt in his adult program. The problem is that _the programs for older youth, and especially adults, attract far fewer students_. But on the other hand, they learn in a much more serious way. And progress more slowly ...with a different attitude towards belts. My son was held back on his first attempt at testing for blue belt. Afterwards he told me he was a little disappointed, but on the other hand, he'd rather be the best green belt in the class than the worst blue belt. Sounds to me like his _Sabunim_ is teaching him the right values.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 11, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> A person who's got strong muscles and doesn't get winded and is light and fast on their feet is going to have a real advantage in a fight -


Depends on the nature of the 'fight.'  For the most part, self defense in real world encounters is more about mental preparedness than physical preparedness.  You need to be able to act without freezing and to make quick decisions under pressure, which are actually unrelated to physical fitness.  If you're trying to run from an attacker, this become more of an issue.

The fact is that obese people are like people who are at a healthy weight; some are weaklings and some are incredibly strong, while most are on par with everyone else.  So having strong muscles really isn't the issue; the 400 pound instructor might have had very strong muscles.  The fact that you couldn't see them doesn't mean that they aren't there.  Refering back to Big Van Vader, look at how he moves in the ring (yes, I know pro wrestling is scripted); he's as fast on his feet and as graceful as any of the more ripped and cut guys, and there's no arguing that he's incredibly strong and has good technique for the sport of his choice.  

And scripted or no, in their prime, I would put my money on Vader (his real name is Leon White) against most martial arts icons, including Jackie Chan, Donny Yen, Jet Li, Bruce Lee and Chuck Norris.



WaterGal said:


> especially in a sport-style art like the poster was talking about.  It's certainly possible for an obese person to be skilled at techniques that can harm someone, but they're going to have a disadvantage over someone in better shape.


Sure, but since we're talking sport here, the person he was talking about was an instructor.  Look at boxing coaches.  Do you think that Cus D'Amato could have whooped Mike Tyson?  Cus made Tyson a champion by helping him to be at his best in the ring, not by being able to win matches himself.



WaterGal said:


> Also, just... someone that's exercising even a few hours a week and eating a reasonably healthy diet will not stay obese.  They might not look like Bruce Lee, but they won't be 400 lbs. And in a sport-style art, they _should_ be getting in at least a few hours a week of decent exercise.  So why are they still obese?


Depression and stress can wreck you physically.  Both are linked to many physical ailments, including obesity.  Depressed people sometimes don't make healthy lifestyle choices.  Depression is a medical condition, and while it doesn't affect your physical condition directly, it can affect it indirectly, and can do so quite thoroughly.

Then you have eating disorders, which are also medical conditions, which may be induced by other factors, including depression and stress.

Keep in mind the context of this discussion; none of us are stumping for sumo wrestler looks.  The response has been to conflating an instructor's personal health issues with McDojo-ism and with an instructor's personal health issues being reason to mistrust their ability to teach.


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## K-man (Nov 11, 2013)

geezer said:


> I have a friend who runs a financially successful TKD studio that caters to kids. You could call it a McDojo. Most of his business focuses on the younger kids. He has a "Tiger-belt" program where they run up throu a bunch of colored belts and tape stripes until they get to black. The kids love it, they get a bit fitter and more flexible, learn a little about discipline, respect and working to acheive an objective. All good.
> 
> ...And _legitimate_ too, in my book. Because a "Tiger black-belt" translates to something like a yellow or orange belt in his adult program. The problem is that _the programs for older youth, and especially adults, attract far fewer students_. But on the other hand, they learn in a much more serious way. And progress more slowly ...with a different attitude towards belts. My son was held back on his first attempt at testing for blue belt. Afterwards he told me he was a little disappointed, but on the other hand, he'd rather be the best green belt in the class than the worst blue belt. Sounds to me like his _Sabunim_ is teaching him the right values.


Doesn't sound like McDojo to me. Kids are bread and butter to a successful MA business and it sounds like legit training and good attitude to me. I know how much effort it is to teach kids and that is why I no longer do it. 
:asian:


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## lklawson (Nov 12, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Things are looking up, we may qualify for some assistance with the specialized school he has to go to now.. He is only 7(autistic) and got removed permanently from the public school because they just cant deal with someone on the spectrum.  Hopefully we get approved for his SSD and that will cover all his special needs therapy and schooling..


I feel for you.  Get in contact with a public counselor or the like; someone who knows the system and can help you work through it.



> How about tips for newbies. Things inexperienced can look for to tip them off.
> 
> I have a few to start it off.
> 
> ...


I agree that those would raise some red flags which would indicate caution.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 12, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> A person who's got strong muscles and doesn't get winded and is light and fast on their feet is going to have a real advantage in a fight - especially in a sport-style art like the poster was talking about.  It's certainly possible for an obese person to be skilled at techniques that can harm someone, but they're going to have a disadvantage over someone in better shape.


I reiterate: not all martial arts are about being "fit." At least not by  Western standards.  They're about hurting people and breaking their  toys.  Often being "svelte" or "trim" can facilitate those goals.  Sometimes it's  irrelevant.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Balrog (Nov 12, 2013)

MJS said:


> Word of mouth is the best seller IMO.  I mean think about it...if the standards are that high, why does high pressure sales tactics have to be used?


This.

I dislike "used car" sales tactics.  Yes, sales is the lifeblood of the school.  Without sales, we don't have income to pay the rent, keep the lights on, etc.  But every sales seminar I've ever been to has been all about "SHOW ME THE MONEY!".  Don't let the student walk out without signing a contract and writing a check.  Yadda, yadda.

I hate this.  I have a sales pitch in my school.  It's low-key and I do have a closing hook.  But it stops there.  If they don't want to sign up on a 4 weeks for $49 trail, they're more than likely not gonna sign a long-term agreement.  My refusal to play the "after the word no" games is probably why I have a small school.  It's also the reason that I have satisfied students with a very low attrition rate.  I want people in my school who see the value in what we teach, not just another body in a uniform going through the motions.


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## Balrog (Nov 12, 2013)

Dissertating said:


> I trained at a school in Texas that was a Franchise (red flag for most) with a contract (red flag) and that required you to buy gear through their school (another red flag) that also had any number of items for sale (another red flag) and who had a sales process for new students (gasp red flag) which was considered expensive to a lot of people (everybody man their battle stations this is getting bad) with an instructor with several black belts (*feint* it's just too much).


I have to disagree with many of your "red flags".  

1) My school is a licensed school in a world-wide organization.  Guess what?  That's not evil.  That means that I have a tremendous support mechanism for my school.

2) We use contracts.  They are good business practice.  Besides, I use a billing company to collect my monthly fees and I have to have a contract in place in order for them to provide the service.

3) Yes, the students do have to buy specifically branded gear. It's easiest for the students to buy it through the school.  The reason is that we provide insurance coverage for them and the insurance company dictates that only gear that meets their standards is covered.

4)  Yes, we have inventory on hand as mentioned above, so therefore we have lots of items for sale.  That's also good business practice.  If a student needs a new piece of sparring gear, it doesn't help to tell them "I'll order it for you, it'll be here next week".  They need it right then and there while sparring class is going on.

5) I have a sales process for new students.  Duh.  It's a business.  Businesses run on processes and procedures.  We have a checklist that we follow to make sure that our new students get everything that they are supposed to.  It's really embarrassing to have to chase after them and say oops I forgot to give you this or that.  That's unprofessional.

6) As far as being expensive....I'm not cheap.  I'm a professional martial arts instructor with many years of training (which will never stop) and I expect to be paid accordingly.  I do price surveys of the schools around me.  I'm not the most expensive, but I'm durn sure not the cheapest.  The rate is immaterial.  If people see the value in what you teach, they will pay the rate.  

7) Several Black Belts, I can't speak to.  I've worked my butt off to get a 6th Degree Black Belt in one style; I haven't had time or inclination to go after ranking in another style.  I've picked up a little aikido and a little ju-jitsu along the way, enough to show my students some very basic moves and make them more well-rounded in their training, but I don't hold myself out as an expert in those disciplines by any means.


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## Balrog (Nov 12, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Problem is, some of these mcdojo don't do anything to ensure their students actually can use the stuff they teach. Balrog forgive me, but the ATA is notable for this. Out side of there odd forms which I see no useful martial application of, they teach what to my outside observer eyes to be fairly standard Tae kwon do. Were they go off the reservation, at least at the ones I visited here in my town, they don't have any meaningful contact in there sparring. So they never really get used to getting hit with force, or more importantly pressure.


Guess what?  One does not have to try to make hard contact in order for hard contact to happen.  :boing1:

Yes, our style is ostensibly non-contact in the tournament sparring area.  But you're gonna get hit.  That's the nature of the beast.  I want my students showing the skill and control to not take their partner's head off, but there isn't a sparring class in the world where someone is not gonna get their bell rung.  And it makes them a better sparrer and much more aware of the self-defense aspects of sparring.

And as far as martial applications of the forms.....you apparently haven't looked very hard at them.  Yeah, we've got the occasional slow tension move or one-legged stance, but those are to challenge the individual's self-control and self-discipline.  The rest of the forms are all about combat.  Just look at the first two moves of the White Belt form and you can see that.



> Problem is those are are. In order for places like ATA and other mcdojo to stay in business they have to keep getting new blood and get the old blood out. It becomes more important to get new trainees then to improve and retain the older members. Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank.. That Is a self perpetuating BS wheel imho.


That statement is incorrect in so many aspects.

Getting new students is the lifeblood of ANY martial arts school.  Maybe 10% of people who start will stick around to make Black Belt.  The rest will drop out along the way, for a variety of reasons:  financial, they move, they get hurt, etc.  But retention is critical as well, because your high ranks are your "leadership core", so to speak.

And sorry for the bluntness but this: "Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank" is pure hogwash.  All you have to do to keep learning new things and advancing your rank is to keep training.  Period.


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## Kframe (Nov 12, 2013)

Balrog said:


> And sorry for the bluntness but this: "Hell just look at the ATA you have to basically start your own school just to keep learning new things and advancing your rank" is pure hogwash.  All you have to do to keep learning new things and advancing your rank is to keep training.  Period.



Balrog, I do not mean any disrespect, I  know you are  quality teacher. My thing is, I have read about the "points" that ATA black belts have to acquire before they can start ranking into the next belt. That it gets progressively harder to get said points. That in the end, you have no choice but to start a school if you want to advance beyond a certain rank.  This information is freely available online, it was only a google search away. 

With regards to your forms, when I watched the Songham forms I saw lots of repititve hand motions that didn't correspond to any thing I have ever trained. Nothing looked like a grab defense, or a wrist escape or anything. Sure there were blocks and strikes, but there were a lot of extrenious movement. Maybe if you posted a video of a form you could highlight were I am mistaken. How much time, is spent taking the form apart and practicing each movement of the form and its application?

I honestly looked into training at the ATA place here, but I was turned off by the fact that Black belts couldn't kick with decent looking form.  These kids just didn't look good as kickers. My former mma coach is a 2nd dan WTF bb and that is what I was judging there kicks by.  

Ya I was turned off by the heavy teacher, but what shocked me the most was the kids with bad kicks. Then there is the whole kid black belt thing. I don't know if I could handle being told what to do by a 10 year old black belt...


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## Kframe (Nov 12, 2013)

Here is a example of why the ATA is called Mcdojo. Now ill say this, I applaud them for instituting the mma rules. 



  Here is a couple of BLACK BELTS, leaders in the ATA and at no time do they show even the slightest attempt at some kind of striking defense. They are just blindly throwing wild punchs and then crashing into each other. Now from the clinch they look decent with a few nice throws.    

That is the whole issue though, They are high level students with no semblance of striking defense. How can that even be possible?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 13, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Balrog, I do not mean any disrespect, I  know you are  quality teacher. My thing is, I have read about the "points" that ATA black belts have to acquire before they can start ranking into the next belt. That it gets progressively harder to get said points. *That in the end, you have no choice but to start a school if you want to advance beyond a certain rank.*  This information is freely available online, it was only a google search away.


I don't know what that certain rank is, but let's be realistic; after a certain point, rank shifts from being about personal improvement and more about giving back to/perpetuating the art.  Fourth dan and higher are considered instructor level grades in many KMA, which is why it is normative to see fourth dan instructors running their own schools.  Fourth dan is (or at least was) the point at which a KKW practitioner could sign off on dan certificates for students.

If all you want to do is show up and train, anything beyond a certain rank is really unnecessary.   So I don't see this as problematic.  If the ATA essentially designates ranks above a certain level as instructor grades, then that is how they have their system set up.  And I see nothing wrong with that.


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## dancingalone (Nov 14, 2013)

Balrog said:


> 7) Several Black Belts, I can't speak to.  I've worked my butt off to get a 6th Degree Black Belt in one style; I haven't had time or inclination to go after ranking in another style.  I've picked up a little aikido and a little ju-jitsu along the way, enough to show my students some very basic moves and make them more well-rounded in their training, but I don't hold myself out as an expert in those disciplines by any means.



I removed most of this post before quoting it, but I thought was quite solid overall.  Thanks.

I just wanted to add a supporting comment to this last note.  If you've been training a long time in popular systems (like karate, tkd, aikido, etc.), it's actually quite hard to avoid earning multiple black belts in them.  They just seem to show up, even if you're not actively interested in gaining rank, because testing students and awarding them rank is one way in which instructors reward their more dedicated students.  It's also a 2 way street, more higher ranked students, so long as they are also knowledgeable and skilled to match their rank, promote their schools and their arts as they teach and set examples for others to follow.

I do agree that if someone is claiming multiple high ranks in some obviously recently created systems that might be something to raise an eyebrow at.  But for someone to have a couple of dans in karate and judo?  Nah, that happens all the time.


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## Balrog (Nov 17, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Here is a example of why the ATA is called Mcdojo. Now ill say this, I applaud them for instituting the mma rules.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sooo...you watch one video, where the guy posting it clearly states that was his first time in competition, and from that you deduce that ATA is a McDojo.  Must be nice to have the awesome powers of deduction that you do.  As far as "blindly throwing wild punches", I don't know where you saw that in the video.  I didn't see anything that looked all that different from what happens at about 2:53 here.

Personally, I'm not into the IMA thing.  It's fine for those who want to do it.  The emphasis in my school is on Taekwondo.  My students will learn a little bit about grappling just to make them more well rounded as a martial artist, but it's not required for promotion.  Nor is it required anywhere in the ATA.

To be blunt....it has been my experience that people call ATA a McDojo because they 1) don't know anything about it or 2) they are jealous of ATA's success, or 3) they've washed out of it in the past.  I'm not saying we don't have some bad schools; we do.  Any large group of people is going to have a few who fall under the left end of the bell curve.  Sadly, they tend to be the bozos who get the attention and people then think they represent the whole group.


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## Balrog (Nov 17, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't know what that certain rank is, but let's be realistic; after a certain point, rank shifts from being about personal improvement and more about giving back to/perpetuating the art.  Fourth dan and higher are considered instructor level grades in many KMA, which is why it is normative to see fourth dan instructors running their own schools.  Fourth dan is (or at least was) the point at which a KKW practitioner could sign off on dan certificates for students.
> 
> If all you want to do is show up and train, anything beyond a certain rank is really unnecessary.   So I don't see this as problematic.  If the ATA essentially designates ranks above a certain level as instructor grades, then that is how they have their system set up.  And I see nothing wrong with that.


Our basic concept is that rank carries responsibility.  You can be a student up to 2nd Degree.  After that, you should become part of leadership.  Our founder used to say that you wouldn't have an admiral in charge of a rowboat, and I think he was right.  

However, it is quite possible for someone to advance in rank without owning a school.  That's NOT to say that they have not become an instructor and aren't actively teaching; quite the opposite.  One of the guidelines for promotion is that the person applying to test for higher rank trains and teaches in a school where the chief instructor meets the requirements for the rank.  For example, let's say that I have a 3rd Degree training in my school.  He has gone through the instructor certification process and has earned the black collar.  He's attended training seminars.  He's judged at tournaments and at testings and has accumulated the required number of points.  He's not a school owner, but he can (and will) get permission to test for the rank because I, as the chief instructor of the school, am that rank or higher.


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## MJS (Nov 18, 2013)

Balrog said:


> This.
> 
> I dislike "used car" sales tactics.  Yes, sales is the lifeblood of the school.  Without sales, we don't have income to pay the rent, keep the lights on, etc.  But every sales seminar I've ever been to has been all about "SHOW ME THE MONEY!".  Don't let the student walk out without signing a contract and writing a check.  Yadda, yadda.
> 
> I hate this.  I have a sales pitch in my school.  It's low-key and I do have a closing hook.  But it stops there.  If they don't want to sign up on a 4 weeks for $49 trail, they're more than likely not gonna sign a long-term agreement.  My refusal to play the "after the word no" games is probably why I have a small school.  It's also the reason that I have satisfied students with a very low attrition rate.  I want people in my school who see the value in what we teach, not just another body in a uniform going through the motions.



Sorry for the late reply, as I just saw this.   I'm with you 100% on this!  My current dojo didn't use any high pressure sales junk to get me in.  I went in, I inquired about classes.  I was told to take a few trial classes to see if Kyokushin is something that I'd like, and also because his classes were hard and not for everyone.  Boy, he wasn't kidding! LOL!  I've been there 2yrs now, and I love it!!   It was my teachers love for the art he teaches, his desire to spread that art, his humbleness, among other things, that got me in the door, not a fancy sales pitch.


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## Kframe (Nov 18, 2013)

Here is another one from 2012.  



 Same problem. ZERO striking defense. Why in gods name is there no striking defense.  There are plenty more IMS videos out there, and they all show a lack of striking defense. WHY?!!!

  You say you focus on TKD, do you train to actually know how to and have to practice of dealing with high punch's and low kicks?  All I see from normal ATA sparring is the same BS sparring as the KKW guys do. Hands by my butt and playing foot tag.  How does that teach anyone to defend anything other then kicks?   

Step sparring does not prepare you for dealing with rapid fire punch's to the head. So unless there is some other method of sparring that, has yet to be shown on video, I don't believe it exists.  The only way to learn how to Use your defenses against a punch to the head is to have people punching you. There is no way around that.   If the students only exposure to head punching and other tech, I in step sparring(looking at both the ata and kkw) isn't that a disservice to the student for not preparing them for some of the common attacks out there?

Being a instructor I cant believe you don't support ima more. It is the closest thing to a real fight anyone will get outside of a pub.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2013)

Kframe said:


> Balrog, go to that fighters 2012 fight, 1 year and several fights and training later, and it does not show any improvement or striking defense.   You say you focus on TKD, do you train to actually know how to and have to practice of dealing with high punch's and low kicks?  All I see from normal ATA sparring is the same BS sparring as the KKW guys do. Hands by my butt and playing foot tag.  How does that teach anyone to defend anything other then kicks?



That's odd. I teach at a Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school, and we don't spar like that. Ever. When I trained at ITF schools, we didn't spar that way either.

There is more to TKD (and pretty much everything else) than you can find on YouBoob.


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## Kframe (Nov 18, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> That's odd. I teach at a Moo Duk Kwan/Kukkiwon school, and we don't spar like that. Ever. When I trained at ITF schools, we didn't spar that way either.
> 
> There is more to TKD (and pretty much everything else) than you can find on YouBoob.




That's funny because the only KKW school in town, that is the only way they spar... I was under the impression that was the standard sparring format.  Even if what you say is true, that does not explain the total lack of striking defense in ANY IMS video(And some ITF videos I have watched). The  question remains WHY!?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2013)

Kframe said:


> That's funny because the only KKW school in town, that is the only way they spar... I was under the impression that was the standard sparring format.  Even if what you say is true, that does not explain the total lack of striking defense in ANY IMS video(And some ITF videos I have watched). The  question remains WHY!?



So you base your opinion of thousands of schools on ONE school? Not all TKD schools are sport focused.
From this and other things you've posted, you seem to tend towards judgments based on inadequate and/or incorrect assumptions (i.e. overweight instructors can't possibly be any good). 
Enjoy your training. Get as much from it as possible. But please stop assuming that your very limited exposure to a system defines the system.


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## Kframe (Nov 18, 2013)

Dirty dog, there are more then enough videos on  youtube to back up my beliefs. I have yet to see ANY video of anyone in TKD of any flavor actually display quality striking defense in a limited rules sparring situation, or even in there Olympic sparring..   Show me some videos that prove me wrong.  There is nearly 20 years worth of Olympic and non Olympic TKD sparring available on Youtube. 

This is not a rush to judgment, this is a observation born out of video evidence. The very fact that the Olympic TKD guys don't even use the same deflections that the traditionalists use, and came up with there own is also out there and even acknowledged on the blogosphere.  

I want truth when it comes to martial arts. If your art will teach you things but only for the purposes of grading and those things will not be used and are considered detrimental in sparring then I want to know.  What you say and others on this forum say about TKD and what I am constantly seeing do not correlate to each other in the slightest.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 18, 2013)

Why do people have such difficulty grasping the simple reality that YouTube is not research?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Kframe (Nov 18, 2013)

Because, with so many different people, millions of them posting on the same subject you would think at least a good portion of those videos would contain good striking defense. 
I am a fanatic when it comes to striking defense, it is the single most important thing to me.  I judge any stand up art on their striking defense.  What good is awesome punchs and kicks if you cant defend your self from said punchs and kicks..   I have no  leeway in my mind with regards to striking defense. 

If youtube only contained a few hundred TKD videos, I would agree with you. Except there are MILLIONS of them. Every single one I have so far clicked on showed poor striking defense.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2013)

Kframe, the majority of what is on Youtube for most martial arts probably shouldn't be posted.  People post things that they really shouldn't.  And not everyone who runs a school is on Youtube posting videos.

Yes, there are some good videos out there, and some are representative of the arts that they're associated with, but there is also a lot of superfluous junk.

As far as the "BS sparring that kkw guys do," I would challenge you to step into the ring against any high level KKW competitor before calling it BS.

WTF sport taekwondo is highly specialized and the people who compete in it at high levels are like any other high level athlete; they live, eat, sleep, and breath their sport.  

As for how to defend against attacks not allowed in WTF sparring, we trained in plenty at the last KKW studio I trained in.

ATA sparring, from what I have seen, is similar in rules to WTF sparring, but it is light contact, while WTF sparring is full contact (ATA folks feel free to correct me if I am mistaken).

I really don't care what their sparring style is like or even what their forms are like.  I'm more interested in what things look like at the local school level.  Which as you know, can vary quite a bit within any art.  Videos of the ATA school in California may look stellar or they may look horrible, but they aren't the school in Maryland.  To know what that school is like, I would need to visit them and check them out for myself.

I'm speaking hypothetically, of course as I'm not sure that there's a single ATA school in my state.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 19, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why do people have such difficulty grasping the simple reality that YouTube is not research?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


No Truer Words have been Spoken on MT


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## Gnarlie (Nov 19, 2013)

Kframe said:


> What you say and others on this forum say about TKD and what I am constantly seeing do not correlate to each other in the slightest.



Of course they don't. What is said here on this forum reflects the experience of people with depth of training in Taekwondo. What is seen on Youtube mostly reflects the experience of people who have practiced the art superficially at best. Youtube typically represents the popular and sport aspects of the art, and does not do so with any kind of depth. A million videos of the surface of a lake will not tell you what's under the water.

For the record, I practice Kukki TKD and striking defence is high on the agenda. It's somewhat naive to suggest that a continually evolving striking art with at least a half century of history (depending who you ask) does not and has never contained a legitimate quality striking defence. It might not use the same principles as the striking defence you personally use, but it is definitely there.

An observation born out of video evidence is a rush to judgement. Unless you've been there, and trained there (with depth), you're not in a position to make a call. Which brings me to the thread topic.

What is a McDojo? 'McDojo' is a term that came about when immodest individuals didn't adhere to the ethical standards of their own arts and began judging one another. It is a term created and used by immodest individuals to devalue and discredit the training of others. Individuals in martial arts created the term, and without them both the term 'McDojo' and the attendant negative publicity that it brings to the martial arts would not exist. Those in the martial arts have created a rod for their own backs by judging and criticising others. They have brought negative examples of the arts that they practice into the public eye, and those negative examples are now the ones that perpetuate and contribute to the stereotyping of arts. That's the reason why Youtube is not a reliable source of information when researching and attempting to form a complete image of an individual martial art - Youtube follows popular perception, not reality.


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## msmitht (Nov 19, 2013)

Looking at the above video makes me wish that it was not affiliated with any form of tkd. I practice kkw tkd, the full contact style, and bjj. There was not much by way of technique, offense or defense, being displayed. If I were to look at it as a tkd practitioner I would have to say that there was no power in any of the kicks nor was there proper timing/set up on order to land them. As a bjj practitioner i would tell them to go take a beginners class and not wear a black belt for about 10-12 years. It was ugly and not practical. 
If this is an accurate representation of their respective schools then I would have conclude that either they attend a mcdojo or are at a school that starts at black and goes to white.


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## Balrog (Nov 22, 2013)

Kframe said:


> You say you focus on TKD, do you train to actually know how to and have to practice of dealing with high punch's and low kicks?  All I see from normal ATA sparring is the same BS sparring as the KKW guys do. Hands by my butt and playing foot tag.  How does that teach anyone to defend anything other then kicks?


Of course we do.  Yes, our tournament sparring rules say no punching to the head, etc.  But there isn't a sparring class in my school where I don't do at least one full round where I allow head punching or low kicks.  I do so because I understand that there is a sport aspect and a self-defense aspect, and I never want my students to lose sight of the self-defense aspect.  


> Step sparring does not prepare you for dealing with rapid fire punch's to the head. So unless there is some other method of sparring that, has yet to be shown on video, I don't believe it exists.


One-steps were never intended to do that.  They are intended to be a transitional utility where beginning students practice timing, distancing and control.



> The only way to learn how to Use your defenses against a punch to the head is to have people punching you. There is no way around that.   If the students only exposure to head punching and other tech, I in step sparring(looking at both the ata and kkw) isn't that a disservice to the student for not preparing them for some of the common attacks out there?
> 
> Being a instructor I cant believe you don't support ima more. It is the closest thing to a real fight anyone will get outside of a pub.


Because I am an instructor, I teach my students to avoid fights instead of getting into them.  Sun Tzu says it better than I do:



> Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles
> is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists
> in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.


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## Balrog (Nov 22, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Ours is light contact by intent, but reality is a different matter.  It's a martial art - you're gonna get hit.  Period.  You're not a true martial artist until you had your bell rung.  I've had mine rung so many times, I can imitate the local church on Sunday morning.
> 
> And you can go to ataonline.com, find a school, then plug in your zip code and it will tell you where the nearest ATA school is to you.


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## Balrog (Nov 22, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why do people have such difficulty grasping the simple reality that YouTube is not research?


<Bowing while typing>

Well stated, sir!!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 22, 2013)

Balrog said:


> Ours is light contact by intent, but reality is a different matter.  It's a martial art - you're gonna get hit.  Period.  You're not a true martial artist until you had your bell rung.  I've had mine rung so many times, I can imitate the local church on Sunday morning.
> 
> And you can go to ataonline.com, find a school, then plug in your zip code and it will tell you where the nearest ATA school is to you.


Thanks!  Leesburg VA is the nearest location is Leesburg.  When I enter Maryland as my location, it says that there are none.


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## wimwag (Dec 31, 2013)

Balrog said:


> To me, a McDojo uses high pressure, used-car sales tactics.  In addition, their belt promotions are based on whether the check for the testing fee clears the bank, rather than whether or not the student can actually perform the material.


We have one of those here.  They were offering a free trial, so I decided to use that as an intro to martial arts for my daughter.  When the 8th class was over, they had presentation packets and a chart showing what each level of "commitment to the art" guaranteed.  Just $1200 and my kid would be guaranteed her White belt/yellow stripe!  You have to buy the book to become a black belt.  Oh and the classes were taught by "brown belts."  The big sign on the wall said "We are a black belt academy."  That, people, is a McDojo.  And for some reason, they are a thriving business.


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## wimwag (Dec 31, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Thanks!  Leesburg VA is the nearest location is Leesburg.  When I enter Maryland as my location, it says that there are none.



I found this one in Elkton, Maryland.  

http://www.atamaryland.com/index.htm


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 1, 2014)

MJS said:


> In another thread, Dan and I were having a discussion about the term McDojo.  This was sparked from a discussion of a school and their testing methods.  Rather than sidetrack that thread, I thought I'd start this thread, so we could find out what people consider a McDojo.



A school will be exposed as a McDojo at tournaments, when the performance of its students is compared with the performance of students at other dojos.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> A school will be exposed as a McDojo at tournaments, when the performance of its students is compared with the performance of students at other dojos.


Not necessarily.  Some McDojos don't participate in tournaments at all, and given the market demographic they tend to focus on, the likelihood of being exposed by swaths of their students getting hammered in tournaments is fairly low.

Also, a lot of schools have in house tournaments, and if the owner has more than one school, it can seem like a really big deal to his or her students.

Finally, a lousy tournament performance is not a big McDojo reveal.  There are plenty of lousy schools that don't adhere to the McDojo template, and some McDojos that do pretty well in tournaments.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 2, 2014)

Well any martial arts instructor who coaches in the olympics, I don't think he will be running a McDojo.


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## geezer (Jan 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well any martial arts instructor who coaches in the olympics, I don't think he will be running a McDojo.



I wouldn't be so sure ...especially if he is a _former_ coach. Sometimes the drive to make money does funny things to people.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 2, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well any martial arts instructor who coaches in the olympics, I don't think he will be running a McDojo.


Yeah, there aren't enough coaches who have coached in the Olympics to make any difference in this topic.

There are, on the other hand, many tournaments between the WTF, ITF, ATA, the various independent schools, and whatever the ITA is calling itself now.  Not to mention karate tournaments.


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## PhotonGuy (Jan 5, 2014)

I would like to point out that just because a dojo gives its students the choice to sign up for promotion tests does not make it a McDojo. At my main dojo, students do have the choice to sign up to test for their next belt every three to four months when they have belt tests, and of course, just because you sign up doesn't mean you will pass. Anyway, at one time I started training at this different dojo where they tell you when you advance in belt rank. It was a decent place, but from my own experience it was not as good as the main dojo that I train at.


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## MJS (Jan 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> A school will be exposed as a McDojo at tournaments, when the performance of its students is compared with the performance of students at other dojos.



As Dan said, not every school, mcdojo or not, competes in tournaments.  Honestly, one should be able to simply view a few classes and determine whether or not the place is a joke or not.  




PhotonGuy said:


> Well any martial arts instructor who coaches in the olympics, I don't think he will be running a McDojo.



LMFAO!!!  You can't be serious.  



PhotonGuy said:


> I would like to point out that just because a dojo gives its students the choice to sign up for promotion tests does not make it a McDojo. At my main dojo, students do have the choice to sign up to test for their next belt every three to four months when they have belt tests, and of course, just because you sign up doesn't mean you will pass. Anyway, at one time I started training at this different dojo where they tell you when you advance in belt rank. It was a decent place, but from my own experience it was not as good as the main dojo that I train at.



I guess I'm just having a hard time wrapping my head about the idea of the students deciding when they feel they're ready to test.  IMO, the teacher, not the student, should know best, when a student is ready to test.  I don't think I've seen a good answer yet, as to why this method is so great.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would like to point out that just because a dojo gives its students the choice to sign up for promotion tests does not make it a McDojo. At my main dojo, students do have the choice to sign up to test for their next belt every three to four months when they have belt tests, and of course, just because you sign up doesn't mean you will pass. Anyway, at one time I started training at this different dojo where they tell you when you advance in belt rank. It was a decent place, but from my own experience it was not as good as the main dojo that I train at.


All that I can say at this point is, 'so what?'  You bring up tournaments as the place to reveal McDojos and then pull this out again in a disjointed manner.

We get it.  You don't think your school is a McDojo.  You don't think your school's testing method makes it a McDojo.  So what?  If you're happy training there, why are you on Martial Talk trying to justify your school?  If you're truly happy there, just go train there and be happy.  

If you keep bringing this testing method up, you're simply going to perpetuate the board's questioning your school.


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## wimwag (Jan 16, 2014)

I think an issue not discussed but relevant to the topic is the acceptance of all martial artists by other martial artists, regardless of how a dojo is run.  What works in my dojo may not work in yours and.vica versa.

 "The ultimate object of human beings should be coexistence and co-prosperity in 'peace' .  -Shugoro Nakazato


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## Cirdan (Jan 17, 2014)

Kind of sums it up:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-zxNR33U5NeA/UEo2Y8ip4ZI/AAAAAAAAA-o/b44N8nhMQS4/s1600/DO_9_6_12_McDOJO.jpg


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## alexis101 (Jan 20, 2014)

Nice thread, i learn a lot about Mcjodo. 

Keep sharing guys! :boing1:


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