# Hard Style vs. Soft Style



## JD_Nelson (Feb 23, 2002)

What is the difference between the two.  I was recently informed that American Kenpo is considered a soft style art.  I believe this to be true since it came from my instructor, but what constitutes a hard style or a soft style. 

~~~Salute~~~

Jeremy Nelson


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## Cthulhu (Feb 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by JD_Nelson _
> *What is the difference between the two.  I was recently informed that American Kenpo is considered a soft style art.  I believe this to be true since it came from my instructor, but what constitutes a hard style or a soft style.
> 
> ~~~Salute~~~
> ...



This could actually be a rather sticky question, as 'hard' and 'soft' can have many different meanings, depending on who you ask.  I'll start off by stating my personal belief that most, if not all, styles have 'soft' and 'hard' components to them, and can also be practiced as 'hard' or 'soft' styles, depending on the individual.

One way a 'hard' style could be described is as a style that relies on physical strength to perform.  Strength, power, speed, and endurance are increased by repeated physical exertion over time.

Along the same lines, a 'soft' style could be described as one that utilizes esoteric concepts like ki/chi/qi to develop 'inner' power rather than musclular strength.  Meditation, breathing exercises and special forms are utilized to develop this 'inner' strength.

Please keep in mind that this is merely one way 'hard' and 'soft' styles could be described, and the explanations I've offered are incredibly simplified at that.

Cthulhu


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 23, 2002)

Yes, this is an interesting question.  

Actually Kenpo is considered a "Medium" System.

Hard, Medium and Soft are going to be words that I think will be outdated since we are compelled today to finer definitions.  

Hard Systems are those of Korean, Japanese, or Okinawan nature.

Medium Systems are Kenpo, Kajukenbo, Lima Lama and  of Polynesian nature.

Soft Systems are all the Kung Fu type systems, Shaolin, Hung Gar, Choi Li Fut, Wing Chun etc.

To say that one particular system does not use "power or force" is untrue.  We must look more at the "mode of movement".  If you research any of these systems you will notice obvious differences between them and the structure of exercises or drills or techniques that they offer.

Logic dictates that all systems be effective.... which means that power must be there if you punch someone ........ there must be the desired effect otherwise it is  useless.  So to say a Kung Fu system (soft) hits soft is really untrue, just as to say a Japanese System is the hardest hitting system..... that also is untrue.  

Well, I think you see what I mean.  lol:asian:


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## arnisador (Feb 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Actually Kenpo is considered a "Medium" System.
> *



It's been my experience that the a great arts like to consider themselves "in-between" or "hard and soft" even when practitioners of other arts do not. Especially in these days of MMA, no one wants there art to be seen as being "limited" which is how people too often percieve this issue I fear.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 23, 2002)

Actually I don't like the terms hard & soft to refer to systems.  They are old time carryovers that really don't describe any system.  

All Systems have to punch or strike "hard" to have effect.  Likewise there are "smooth or soft" movements even in Shotokan.   So Hard and Soft are (to me) outdated terms when used to describe ones system.

I prefer to use Traditional Shotokan or Japanese or Okinawan systems and Traditional Chinese or Kung or Gung or Gong Fu Systems.

American Kenpo was the first real "American developed" System on US soil thus the name and claim.  The Chinese were here in the Early 1800's and other systems have been transplanted here as well at various times.  

:asian:


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## JD_Nelson (Feb 23, 2002)

Hard or soft could be defined as method of delivery then?


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## Rainman (Feb 23, 2002)

It could be thought of as circular vs. linear but all systems use both.  If a player gets too far one way effectiveness of the art suffers.  Some people also think hard/soft, circular/linear and internal/external are ways of describing systems, they are not because internal refers to the three Taoist arts of China.  Ba gua, Xing I, and Tai Chi.    Some people use internal as a way of describing systems that cultivate chi/ki but again most systems do that as well.


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## Chiduce (Feb 24, 2002)

The kenpo system which i study and offer instruction in, blends both into a mesh of analogies within the methods of okinawan matsumura seito & matsumura kenpo, military hand to hand  short and medium range combatives, combat judo and chinese 5 animal fist qi gong. There is a time to be hard and a time to be soft; a time to be linear and time to be circular; a time to combine linear with circular and hard with soft in maintaining the constant state of equilibrium, or what the chinese call (wuji)! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## AvPKenpo (Feb 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> It's been my experience that the a great arts like to consider themselves "in-between" or "hard and soft" even when practitioners of other arts do not. Especially in these days of MMA, no one wants there art to be seen as being "limited" which is how people too often percieve this issue I fear. *



I believe that what Goldendragon7 was meaning by Medium was that the delivery of a technique can either be hard or soft.  I can either sharpen the edges or I can round the corners.  The outcome may be slightly different, for instance:

Soft - defense for a right step through punch from 12 if the person is your friend.  Right inward parry as you step back to a right nuetral bow (fighting stance), right front kick to the stomach, followed by a right backhand to the face.

Hard - defense for a right step through punch from 12 if the attacker is a foe.  Right inward block(to the radial nerve) as you step back to a right nuetral bow (fighting stance) right front kick to the groin followed by a right outward handsword strike to the neck(artery).  (for our Kenpo practitioners, you know where the checks go on this technique)

As you can see it is the same defense but the outcome is comepletly different.  One person is humiliated, the other on the floor or on his/her way to the hospital.  That is where the term Medium can be applied.  Which I believe gives greater diversity to our art.

To answer your question JD_Nelson,   American Kenpo Karate can either be hard or soft you can take the same forms or techniques and practice them in a type of hard style,  or you can take them and make them flow like a dancer.  In your question there is no wrong answer.  For instance if I am at a tournament and I see the judges are scoring higher for soft styled forms I will perform with that in mind, and I will flow, round some corners and be light on my feet.  But if I see that they are scoring higher for hard style forms, I deepen my stances, use more breathing, and add some kia's.


Hope this helps.

Michael


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## vincefuess (Feb 24, 2002)

The circular vs. linear point is how I always understood it.  Linear styles were considered "hard" styles and circular styles were considered "soft" styles- abrupt linear snapping or stopping motion vs. flowing, circular motion.  Most all style incorporate elements of both, but some are still dominant in one or the other.

Its as much about a mindset as anything else.  I have seen kenpo practitioners who flow like Wushu performers, and I have seen some who move with incredible bashing linear power.  It's all there- just depends on what you want.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 25, 2002)

My point!  "All" systems use linear and circular movements ... these are "methods of execution"  all actions are one or the other.:asian:


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## vincefuess (Feb 25, 2002)

You can tell volumes about a style by its forms or kata, they are generally the nucleus of a style.  

The traditional "hard" Karate systems forms are very linear in application both in direction travelled and in the method of execution of strikes and blocks.  They are generally delivered with high intensity with many "stopping points" or pauses to emphasize focus of power.

The Kung Fu styles forms generally flow in an unending motion, smoothly transitioning from one strike or block into the next as seamlessly as possible.

Both of these styles use both linear and circular motion in actual application of techniques.

The basic Kenpo forms begin in a linear fashion- you don't get much more linear than Short or Long Form 1- but as you progress to higher forms, they become increasingly circular and seamless.

I first began training in hard style Karate- Chung Do Kwan and Goju-Ryu to be exact.  I felt a definite transition of mindset and application when I began my training in American Kenpo.  The most notable transition I made was from thinking I was a good fighter to finding out I didn't know squat!!  And working out with people like Huk Planas keeps me in the "I don't know squat" category!! LOL!  It's a good place to be.


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 26, 2002)

Sounds like you know alot more than squat. Being humble and kicking your self in the nutts are two different things. You seem like you're a pretty educated guy.
:asian: 

Billy Lear


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## vincefuess (Feb 26, 2002)

Thank you for the compliment!  You know, it's funny- the experience I gain in martial arts, the more a student I become, and the more valuable I find the insights of others.  Especially since I have discovered this HUGE online martial arts community!  I wish I had these resources twenty years ago!!


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## Rainman (Feb 26, 2002)

short and long 1 also use quite a bit of circular movements as well vince.  Take into account that where the line ends the circle begins and vice versa.  There is a slight curve at the end of the movements to aid in pull back speed.  It aids in eliminating the stops.  Kenpo uses lines with circles on the ends.  Hope this helps.


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## arnisador (Feb 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *You know, it's funny- the experience I gain in martial arts, the more a student I become*



I agree with this most strongly. I remember when I was a beginner and thought of it as a journey with a beginning and an end. I see now that there's no end and that three lifetimes wouldn't suffice to study all I wanted to study in the arts. And one must truly _study_ the martial arts.



> *
> and the more valuable I find the insights of others.  Especially since I have discovered this HUGE online martial arts community!  I wish I had these resources twenty years ago!! *



I absolutely agree about the online communities--I would have love dto have had these. Of course, the web itself, even without the interaction, is educational if one knows how to sift the information.

As to the insights of others, yesterday I learned something significant about how to perform a technique that I've been doing for some 20 years (though it's something from another art that I just picked up from briefly studying that art). I learned this from someone with less than a year's experience in the martial arts. Luckily, I've long since learned to Shut Up and Listen when someone is trying to teach me something about the martial arts.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 26, 2002)

what about the  circular rotation of the arm with the  punch or the rotation of the body those are both circular yet they enhance the linear path the punch takes while spiraling towards it target.

:asian:




Mod Edit to repair broken smilie - Kaith


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## donald (Feb 28, 2002)

Ahhh your grasshopperness,
Don't the old definitions,(hard/soft styles), denote the predominate applicational characteristics of a system?
It was always my understanding that kenpo in general whether it be Parker, or Tracy. Was a system which encompassed both the hard, and soft. Because this particular system had roots in the
Chinese systems, and the Japanese/Okinawian systems.
Admitedly the abovementioned is kind of outdated info. Because
the American martial arts landscape has been decorated with so many different systems. As compared to the m.a. enviroment of the 70's, and so on! Anywho, thought I'd throw this out there for consideration/guffawing!!!

As you snatch the pebble from my han....     
Salute in Christ,
Donald:shrug:


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## vincefuess (Feb 28, 2002)

If you have the insight, you can see the yin and the yang in every breath we take and every beat of our heart.  I was being general, in that the principles (MAJOR) demonstrated in Kenpos early forms is linear.

Case in point.  A child learns to crawl, which is a precursor to walking.  Yes- the rotation of joints as necessary for walking are being employed, but not necessary at that point.  Need we take everything down to a molecular level for the sake of mental masturbation?  YES- there are some circular motions employed in the primary forms, but they ARE NOT the lesson.  Sheesh.

I am keeping the discussion tailored to the level of the question.

Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah Blah blah!!!!!!!

:soapbox:


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 28, 2002)

Man, bats are smart... they know how to use sonar and I don't.

:iws: 

Linear vs. Circular

Hard vs. Soft

What's next? Jerking vs. Stroking?

I think that the definition of Linear vs. Circular has nothing to do with movement in relation to joints, a.k.a. rotation, (Come on Dennis) but rather movement in relation to the path that the natural weapon (or defense) utilizes while travelling to it's intended target.

i.e. A roundhouse punch is circular due to the path that the fist takes vs. a reverse punch which is linear due to the fist travelling straight to it's target.

I know... I know... the arm has to rotate in order to properly execute a reverse punch. Well that maybe, but that doesn't make the action circular.

A bullet travelling out of a rifle spins, but it doesn't necessarily follow a circular path. Does it?

Come on people... What's with the Micro-Kenpo here?

 

Billy Lear


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## vincefuess (Feb 28, 2002)

I like that term!  What he said!  Yeah!  Micro-Kenpo.  I could swear one of my quarks did five swords on a neighboring lepton, but I can't prove it.  Particle Kenpo is a *****.   The positively charged proton of hydrogen denied the whole event.  They have no respect for hadrons.  Random acts of random aggression.  Those freekin mesons really jacked it up.

Fractal Kenpo...


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 28, 2002)

I know I am jumping to this discussion late, so someone may have already posted similar to this, but in traditional Chinese systems of wugong (martial arts) there two families:

Soft Arts/Internal Arts = *Neigong*

Neigong refers to the internal systems, such as Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Wenshenquan , Dachengquan, Liuhebafaquan, Wudang styles, etc.


Hard Arts/External Arts = *Waigong*

Waigong refers to external systems such as Youngchunquan (Wing Chun), Cailifoquan (Choy Lay Fut), Huzunquan (Tiger fist), etc

This does not mean that one does not use forceful techniques, or one is softer or harder, it just means that one system focuses more on the internal aspects of qi (chi) more then the other. 

Some external systems pay some attention to this, such as Hongjiaquan (Hung gar/family fist), but rely mostly on strength and muscular force; where as systems such as Baguazhang will rely more on qi, rooting, fa-jing, etc..

I think our systems of Westernized Kenpo would definitely be classified as a Hard Art/External or a Waigong system

Hope this helps!

Sanxiawuyi 
:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Mar 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *I like that term!  What he said!  Yeah!  Micro-Kenpo.  I could swear one of my quarks did five swords on a neighboring lepton, but I can't prove it.  Particle Kenpo is a *****.   The positively charged proton of hydrogen denied the whole event.  They have no respect for hadrons.  Random acts of random aggression.  Those freekin mesons really jacked it up.
> 
> Fractal Kenpo... *



Sounds like you're talking about NUCLEAR KENPO... If you wanna be an expert on that eat some Re-Fried Beans the night before practice. LOL

:fart: 

Billy Lear


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## Robbo (Mar 1, 2002)

Go easy on Dennis, he might decide to come and 'help' you learn a new technique  
(Actually I wish that would happen)

We study how a body moves in order to become more efficient at what we do. A punch is a punch is a punch but understanding how a punch generates power is crucial to practise and the increase of said power/speed.

Maybe we are just too experienced and take this for granted. But if you try to tell a beginner that the punch generates all it's movement from circles you'd probably confuse them. Once you break it down to hip rotation, arm rotation, flexation, etc then they can understand. In order for us to explain these things we have to know that a punch although a linear movement is made up of a bunch of circles.

So, it may be micro-kenpo but doesn't the more understanding of how the body moves make you a better prationtioner?

Thanks,
Rob


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## vincefuess (Mar 1, 2002)

Those mats can be merciless when you are seated on them, stretching and warming up, and TRY to sneak one off...

BRRRRAAAAPPPPPPPPPPP!!!!!!!

It always happens when there are cute girls on the mat, too!

Man, I hate when that happens...


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 1, 2002)

Thank you Rob......... I like you! 

:asian:


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## tunetigress (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *The circular vs. linear point is how I always understood it.  Linear styles were considered "hard" styles and circular styles were considered "soft" styles- abrupt linear snapping or stopping motion vs. flowing, circular motion.  Most all style incorporate elements of both, but some are still dominant in one or the other.
> 
> Its as much about a mindset as anything else.  I have seen kenpo practitioners who flow like Wushu performers, and I have seen some who move with incredible bashing linear power.  It's all there- just depends on what you want. *



Vince, your descriptions of hard and soft styles is precisely what I have been taught as well.  I personally love the idea that it really is all there, and we can use what works for us as individuals!  Kenpo gives me not only what I want, but also what I need!    Respectfully,  _(_)_   Tune


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 5, 2002)

It is all in perception.  How detailed a look are you giving it.  If the person you are  discussing this topic with is on the same page as you then it  doesn't matter how you  term it..... you understand what each is referring to.

:asian:


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## Sanxiawuyi (Mar 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> 
> *The circular vs. linear point is how I always understood it.  Linear styles were considered "hard" styles and circular styles were considered "soft" styles.*



Soft Arts or Internal Arts = Neigong 

Neigong refers to the internal systems, such as Taijiquan, Baguazhang, Xingyiquan, Wenshenquan , Dachengquan, Liuhebafaquan, Wudang styles, etc. 


Hard Arts or External Arts = Waigong 

Waigong refers to external systems such as Youngchunquan (Wing Chun), Cailifoquan (Choy Lay Fut), Huzunquan (Tiger fist), etc 

Westernized Kenpo would definitely be classified as a Hard Art/External or a Waigong system.

This does not mean that one does not use forceful techniques, or one is softer or harder, or one is "circular or linear", .... it just means that one system focuses more on the internal aspects of qi (chi) more then the other. 

Xingyi (Hsing-i) is very linear, but most definitely an internal/soft system.

Sanxiawuyi
:asian:


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