# My son's Weapons and Kata



## CB Jones

11 years old


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## Headhunter

I'd be careful what I put online. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a bunch of total strangers watching my kid. Just be aware of it the risks of these kind of things. You have put your sons name, his age, his picture, his location and his main hobby online for anyone to see.


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## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> I'd be careful what I put online. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a bunch of total strangers watching my kid. Just be aware of it the risks of these kind of things. You have put your sons name, his age, his picture, his location and his main hobby online for anyone to see.


There is less risk online than the media fury would lead us to believe.


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## Danny T

Nice...does he know the trips, throws, takedowns, locks, and breaks associated with all those nice crisp movements?


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> 11 years old


Good commitment in his movement. Nice to see kids actually putting meaning into the forms.


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## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> There is less risk online than the media fury would lead us to believe.


Actually I know from first hand experience this can happen. A friend of mine posted a video of his daughter sparring and had someone message them saying they were a world renowned trainer who could make her a superstar and to send her along to an address he gave. Luckily my friend wasn't an idiot and told the police, turns out that guy was a repeated rapist


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## Azulx

CB Jones said:


> 11 years old



was the last kata Bassai?


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## CB Jones

Headhunter said:


> I'd be careful what I put online. I wouldn't feel comfortable with a bunch of total strangers watching my kid. Just be aware of it the risks of these kind of things. You have put your sons name, his age, his picture, his location and his main hobby online for anyone to see.



Thanks for your concern.  We are very careful.  Everything runs through me so we haven't any problems.  I got 17 years of L.E. part of which was investigating white collar crime and identity theft.


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## CB Jones

Danny T said:


> Nice...does he know the trips, throws, takedowns, locks, and breaks associated with all those nice crisp movements?



Yes and  he loves Bunkai.  He pretty much is a lil karate junkie.  Lol.


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## CB Jones

Azulx said:


> was the last kata Bassai?



Yes but we call it Pal Sec.

The style he trains in is a Korean Karate so there are some minor differences.


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## Azulx

CB Jones said:


> Yes but we call it Pal Sec.
> 
> The style he trains in is a Korean Karate so there are some minor differences.



Ah so this is the tournament in Ruston. How is that one? Are you in the South District for the USKA? The host many tournaments in LA.


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## CB Jones

Azulx said:


> Ah so this is the tournament in Ruston. How is that one? Are you in the South District for the USKA? The host many tournaments in LA.



It's good, but a little biased as our Sensei hosts it.  Lol.  Typically has a real good turnout though.

South central.

One of the USKA founder and late president taught in Ruston @LA Tech so there are a lot of USKA member Dojos in Louisiana and a lot of tournaments. 

 It's a pretty good circuit down here with Louisiana and Texas tourneys.


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## Azulx

CB Jones said:


> It's good, but a little biased as our Sensei hosts it. Lol. Typically has a real good turnout though.
> 
> South central.
> 
> One of the USKA founder and late president taught in Ruston @LA Tech so there are a lot of USKA member Dojos in Louisiana and a lot of tournaments.
> 
> It's a pretty good circuit down here with Louisiana and Texas tourneys.



Oh nice Master Cotton is your Instructor. I've seen some videos of him competing he's been around for a while.


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## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> Actually I know from first hand experience this can happen. A friend of mine posted a video of his daughter sparring and had someone message them saying they were a world renowned trainer who could make her a superstar and to send her along to an address he gave. Luckily my friend wasn't an idiot and told the police, turns out that guy was a repeated rapist


I never denied that it happens. You have to admit, though, that the episode you mention is not particularly dangerous to anyone who has the sense not to just send their kids off without checking up on the person.


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## Bill Mattocks

Very nice!  Crisp, powerful, looks good.  Congratulations!


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## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> I never denied that it happens. You have to admit, though, that the episode you mention is not particularly dangerous to anyone who has the sense not to just send their kids off without checking up on the person.


I wouldn't take the risk to be honest it's not worth it just to show off my kid and quite honestly that's all the op is doing is saying look how awesome my kid is.


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## Gerry Seymour

Headhunter said:


> I wouldn't take the risk to be honest it's not worth it just to show off my kid and quite honestly that's all the op is doing is saying look how awesome my kid is.


And nothing wrong with that. Parents have been doing that since time immemorial. Some folks enjoy it.


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## Headhunter

gpseymour said:


> And nothing wrong with that. Parents have been doing that since time immemorial. Some folks enjoy it.


Never said there was but  still wouldn't take the risk of it. I mean the kids 11. I don't know if you have kids but if you do would you be fine with your 11 year old posting online to total strangers his name, his age, his location, a photo and a video of himself and his hobby


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## CB Jones

Headhunter said:


> I wouldn't take the risk to be honest it's not worth it just to show off my kid and quite honestly that's all the op is doing is saying look how awesome my kid is.



Yes I am quite proud of my son.  He has worked extremely hard over the last 7 years at karate.

I was under the impression posting videos on this forum was the main point of this forum?


And nothing wrong with posting name, age, and what town we live in.  That is all public info.  Nothing to worry about and no reason to hide it.


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## Flying Crane

I cannot tell you how happy I am to see that he is not doing XMA and fancy tricking.

I think he has some real promise.  His stances are better than most that I see.  And that is huge.


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## CB Jones

Yeah.  He loves competing.  But we stick mainly to Traditional style tournaments.


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## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> I cannot tell you how happy I am to see that he is not doing XMA and fancy tricking.
> 
> I think he has some real promise.  His stances are better than most that I see.  And that is huge.


Agreed. I remember the last demonstration I helped my primary instructor with. We went right after a school that had the blinking speed chucks, gymnastic flips, and shiny prismatic tapered staff show. It was very cool to watch, then we got up and showed some defenses against people punching. Boring, but realistic.


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> Yeah.  He loves competing.  But we stick mainly to Traditional style tournaments.


There's a Ryukyu Kempo instructor in SC who told me about the last time he was asked to judge forms at a tournament. A kid (older teen) came in and did a nice, flashy routine with shiny speed chucks. While the other judges are making notes and nodding at the end, this guy reaches into his bag, takes out a set of standard wooden nunchuku, and says, "Do it with these." He wasn't asked back.


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## Tames D

CB Jones said:


> 11 years old


Thanks for posting. He's very talented.


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## Tames D

Headhunter said:


> I wouldn't take the risk to be honest it's not worth it just to show off my kid and quite honestly that's all the op is doing is saying look how awesome my kid is.


Apparently, you are not a father.


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## Headhunter

Tames D said:


> Apparently, you are not a father.


Well you're wrong there


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## Touch Of Death

Just an aside from the malay. The turning your head before moving, thing, looks cool, but is a bad habit.


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## Buka

What a pleasure that was, that's a seriously talented young man.
Does he fight as well?


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## Gerry Seymour

Touch Of Death said:


> Just an aside from the malay. The turning your head before moving, thing, looks cool, but is a bad habit.


Can you explain that? If I'm understanding your comment, you're talking about the orienting to the new target before moving toward it.


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## CB Jones

Touch Of Death said:


> Just an aside from the malay. The turning your head before moving, thing, looks cool, but is a bad habit.



Interesting.  I will check on that.


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## CB Jones

Buka said:


> What a pleasure that was, that's a seriously talented young man.
> Does he fight as well?



Absolutely that is his main focus.  He loves sparring.

If I had to rank what he does best, I would say Fighting then Weapons then Kata.

He also runs some nunchaku forms in the dojo but his main weapon is the bo.


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## Touch Of Death

gpseymour said:


> Can you explain that? If I'm understanding your comment, you're talking about the orienting to the new target before moving toward it.


The more combat effective method is to turn the eyes, and begin the face off to that direction, with your whole body. It is way faster.


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## Touch Of Death

Gyroscope affect is faster than, look and react.


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## CB Jones

Touch Of Death said:


> The more combat effective method is to turn the eyes, and begin the face off to that direction, with your whole body. It is way faster.



That makes sense.  I will ask his Sensei about that.

The 1st kata is Iron Claw and his Sensei competed with it a lot back in his day.

Appreciate you pointing that out.  We are preparing for Nationals next month.  So any little hiccups we need to fix now.


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## Gerry Seymour

Touch Of Death said:


> The more combat effective method is to turn the eyes, and begin the face off to that direction, with your whole body. It is way faster.


Ah! I catch your meaning now.


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## Touch Of Death

CB Jones said:


> That makes sense.  I will ask his Sensei about that.
> 
> The 1st kata is Iron Claw and his Sensei competed with it a lot back in his day.
> 
> Appreciate you pointing that out.  We are preparing for Nationals next month.  So any little hiccups we need to fix now.


Like I said, it looks cool; so, they may not want you to fix it. However, don't fight like that, in real life.


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## CB Jones

No.  Our Sensei is more about the technique being realistic as it pertains to a fight than what just looks good.

Willing to bet, my son just picked that up from someone else.

He is very good at mimicking  people but he can pick up bad habits at times.


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> No.  Our Sensei is more about the technique being realistic as it pertains to a fight than what just looks good.
> 
> Willing to bet, my son just picked that up from someone else.
> 
> He is very good at mimicking  people but he can pick up bad habits at times.


It makes the form look more crisp, which is why it shows up, so there's a good chance he picked it up from someone whose form looked cool (and maybe scored higher because of it). I've also seen some instructors use it as a purposeful exaggeration to correct students who were turning in the kata with their eyes always in the center of the movement (so, not really looking toward the "attacker" before moving). It should be led by the eyes, with the head following and the body lagging only insofar as it is more massive and takes longer to pivot - meaning head and body should start at nearly the same time.


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## Touch Of Death

CB Jones said:


> No.  Our Sensei is more about the technique being realistic as it pertains to a fight than what just looks good.
> 
> Willing to bet, my son just picked that up from someone else.
> 
> He is very good at mimicking  people but he can pick up bad habits at times.


What you are saying makes sense, but forms competition is about showmanship, and there are just, flat out, some things you do for show, when attempting to win a Kata division.


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## Buka

I disagree with turning the eyes before the head.


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## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> I disagree with turning the eyes before the head.


Do tell...


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## Headhunter

Touch Of Death said:


> What you are saying makes sense, but forms competition is about showmanship, and there are just, flat out, some things you do for show, when attempting to win a Kata division.


Agree that's why I think kata competition is a waste if time. Kata is fine but most top level competitors kata looks ridiculous and breaks every rule their martial art teaches just so they can look flashy and score points. All kata should be based on realism not winning a silly trophy. My instructor always said trophies were just quick fixes, they look cool and pump up your ego for a couple days but apart from that they're worthless and you're sacrificing your martial arts skill for a trophy.


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## Tames D

I have always been turned off when I see a martial arts school with a load of trophies in their storefront window. It tells me where their priority is. Nothing wrong with it, but not what I'm into.


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## Buka

Touch Of Death said:


> Do tell...



Just two ways of doing something, your eyes are faster, my head turn is faster - same result - we vanquish the beejesus out of the guy coming at us. (silly him)


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## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> Just two ways of doing something, your eyes are faster, my head turn is faster - same result - we vanquish the beejesus out of the guy coming at us. (silly him)


It's an and, and I doubt you are that exaggerated during the course of a fight, but I will take your word for it.


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## Gerry Seymour

Tames D said:


> I have always been turned off when I see a martial arts school with a load of trophies in their storefront window. It tells me where their priority is. Nothing wrong with it, but not what I'm into.


I've always been the same way. I've known some excellent instructors who taught at some of those schools, but I was just never interested in training there. I was probably 30 before I even comprehended why anyone would. I'm a slow learner, sometimes.


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## Buka

Touch Of Death said:


> It's an and, and I doubt you are that exaggerated during the course of a fight, but I will take your word for it.



What I was referring to was the eyes turning first, and that being more combat effective. The eye turn is too slow, in my opinion.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> What I was referring to was the eyes turning first, and that being more combat effective. The eye turn is too slow, in my opinion.


I referred to the eyes leading the head. They naturally start turning before the head and stay ahead of it most of the turn, just as the head starts before the body and stays ahead of it most of the turn.


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## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> What I was referring to was the eyes turning first, and that being more combat effective. The eye turn is too slow, in my opinion.


It's more a, you notice motion, and just go, thing. Action is faster than reaction; so, since you are already in motion, you pretty much do it all at the same time. I don't mean, look with the eyes, pause, and go. I meant they start the process, unless of course you heard something.


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## Gerry Seymour

Touch Of Death said:


> It's more a, you notice motion, and just go, thing. Action is faster than reaction; so, since you are already in motion, you pretty much do it all at the same time. I don't mean, look with the eyes, pause, and go. I meant they start the process, unless of course you heard something.


Even in the orientation response, the eyes turn faster than the whole head, so they will start first and end first.


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> Even in the orientation response, the eyes turn faster than the whole head, so they will start first and end first.



I disagree.


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## Touch Of Death

gpseymour said:


> Even in the orientation response, the eyes turn faster than the whole head, so they will start first and end first.


I would imagine so, now that you mention it, but I was making a funny.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I disagree.


What part do you disagree with?


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## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> I disagree.


LOL


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> What part do you disagree with?



Context mostly. The turning of the head in what started the discussion was in a kata, specifically (as I see it) when a threat is approaching from the side. I suppose if the threat was approaching slowly, it might be a different story, but I even doubt that.

In orientation response it's only in slower things, things that aren't quick enough to trigger a startle response. When startled, your head snaps towards the threat. It leads the eyes because it's faster. The only thing the eyes can do quicker is blink.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> Context mostly. The turning of the head in what started the discussion was in a kata, specifically (as I see it) when a threat is approaching from the side. I suppose if the threat was approaching slowly, it might be a different story, but I even doubt that.
> 
> In orientation response it's only in slower things, things that aren't quick enough to trigger a startle response. When startled, your head snaps towards the threat. It leads the eyes because it's faster. The only thing the eyes can do quicker is blink.


But they eyes are rotating within that movement. If they remained fixed, they'd arrive on-target at exactly the same time as the head. They won't cover the same number of degrees independently, but if they move 1/3 as fast, they'll cover 80 degrees while the head covers 60 (the head supplying 60 of the 80 degrees). They are less massive, so their inertia should give them an earlier start in the movement. The only way I could see the head getting ahead of them would be if the muscles controlling the eyes can't keep up with the force generated by the head's movement, and I find that unlikely (though I have nothing but my own estimation to back that).


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## Tames D

Touch Of Death said:


> LOL


LOL


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## CB Jones

I can see it both ways.

Too me when you think of it within the OODA Loop you would turn your head first before turning your body

Observe - stimuli that draws your attention (attacker approaching)

Orient - focus of your eyes on stimuli (attacker)

Decide - decide course of action (flight or fight). Strategy that will be used.

Action - act on decision


I could see turning your head addressing the threat and turning and acting after you have made the decision of the course of action to take.


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## Buka

Touch Of Death said:


> LOL


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> But they eyes are rotating within that movement. If they remained fixed, they'd arrive on-target at exactly the same time as the head. They won't cover the same number of degrees independently, but if they move 1/3 as fast, they'll cover 80 degrees while the head covers 60 (the head supplying 60 of the 80 degrees). They are less massive, so their inertia should give them an earlier start in the movement. The only way I could see the head getting ahead of them would be if the muscles controlling the eyes can't keep up with the force generated by the head's movement, and I find that unlikely (though I have nothing but my own estimation to back that).



I'm enjoying this discussion. 

So..

The hand is quicker than the eye.
Action is quicker than reaction.
Ergo- If I punch first, you shouldn't be able to slip that punch. (if it's in your repertoire) but you will many times.

I know it's a straw man argument, but how else was I going to get to use the word ergo?

Actually - the eye runs slightly slower than the turn of the head. Less than ten milliseconds. Interestingly enough, when the head snaps either right or left, the eyes move slightly in the opposite direction in order to keep focus within the center of the field of vision.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> I'm enjoying this discussion.
> 
> So..
> 
> The hand is quicker than the eye.
> Action is quicker than reaction.
> Ergo- If I punch first, you shouldn't be able to slip that punch. (if it's in your repertoire) but you will many times.
> 
> I know it's a straw man argument, but how else was I going to get to use the word ergo?
> 
> Actually - the eye runs slightly slower than the turn of the head. Less than ten milliseconds. Interestingly enough, when the head snaps either right or left, the eyes move slightly in the opposite direction in order to keep focus within the center of the field of vision.


Interesting, so the eye does that even when we are trying to look to one side? That's odd, since we don't perceive much during the head turn, itself. I need to go find some studies to read!


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## Steve

Okay.   So, first, love the video.  It's cool to see an 11 year old commit to something he's passionate about.   Kudos to him!  And I can tell you're proud of him, and deservedly so.  

Second, I think it's great that he's at a self defense oriented school, but frankly, my opinion is it would be great if he was at an XMA school, too.   Too much is made of that, IMO.  

Third, buka, you're a nut.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Okay.   So, first, love the video.  It's cool to see an 11 year old commit to something he's passionate about.   Kudos to him!  And I can tell you're proud of him, and deservedly so.
> 
> Second, I think it's great that he's at a self defense oriented school, but frankly, my opinion is it would be great if he was at an XMA school, too.   Too much is made of that, IMO.
> 
> Third, buka, you're a nut.


I don't mind the XMA schools, for what they are. There's some impressive gymnastic work at those places. But many of them claim to be teaching effective defensive/fighting technique. The XMA stuff has no more relationship to that than does LaserTag.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I don't mind the XMA schools, for what they are. There's some impressive gymnastic work at those places. But many of them claim to be teaching effective defensive/fighting technique. The XMA stuff has no more relationship to that than does LaserTag.


My belief is that there is no more effective self defense training for kids than any program that keeps them fit, builds their self esteem and gets them involved in something that instills some foundational life skills.   That could be football, baseball, xma, gymnastics, parkour or even the marching band.  Even the fit part is negotiable.

The idea that kids are learning effective, defensive fighting techniques is not credible, in my opinion.   And any school that purports to do so is very suspicious to me.   In fact, I think a sport like XMA is far better for a kid than training at a school that eschews competition, and instead focuses on technique that the kid never actually applies, and puts "respect" on the flier.

But bottom line, if the kid is learning the value of working hard, teamwork, and gets realistic feedback based on actual accomplishment, they're doing just fine.


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## CB Jones

Steve,

Thanks.

When it comes to forms we arent that interested in XMA.

But we do go to some XMA tournaments for fighting.

We approach fights as a test of where he is at but also it's a chance to solve new problems experienced from fighters from different styles.


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## Buka

Steve said:


> Third, buka, you're a nut.



A popular consensus in my circle as well, yes. 
Ah, but it is in the eye of the beholder, too. A lot of us here aren't exactly sans a shade of _One Flew,_ my brother. 

Et vous?


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> My belief is that there is no more effective self defense training for kids than any program that keeps them fit, builds their self esteem and gets them involved in something that instills some foundational life skills.   That could be football, baseball, xma, gymnastics, parkour or even the marching band.  Even the fit part is negotiable.
> 
> The idea that kids are learning effective, defensive fighting techniques is not credible, in my opinion.   And any school that purports to do so is very suspicious to me.   In fact, I think a sport like XMA is far better for a kid than training at a school that eschews competition, and instead focuses on technique that the kid never actually applies, and puts "respect" on the flier.
> 
> But bottom line, if the kid is learning the value of working hard, teamwork, and gets realistic feedback based on actual accomplishment, they're doing just fine.


Define "kids" in your usage, Steve. If you're referring to those under 10, I'm entirely with you. Most of them aren't going to learn to fight well, though I think there's room for a few techniques to keep the bullies at bay. Those could be learned within an XMA context. For teens, however, (the folks doing the demo I referred to), there's plenty they can learn of effective fighting technique. No reason they shouldn't do XMA, mind you, just not for fighting.

On a side note, I agree entirely that almost any activity that gets them moving, improves fitness, teaches them to work with others, challenges them, and helps them succeed is a benefit for self-protection.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Define "kids" in your usage, Steve. If you're referring to those under 10, I'm entirely with you. Most of them aren't going to learn to fight well, though I think there's room for a few techniques to keep the bullies at bay. Those could be learned within an XMA context. For teens, however, (the folks doing the demo I referred to), there's plenty they can learn of effective fighting technique. No reason they shouldn't do XMA, mind you, just not for fighting.
> 
> On a side note, I agree entirely that almost any activity that gets them moving, improves fitness, teaches them to work with others, challenges them, and helps them succeed is a benefit for self-protection.


We are talking about an 11 year old.  I'd say kid is 14 or younger.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> We are talking about an 11 year old.  I'd say kid is 14 or younger.


Okay, there's a reasonable grey area there. My usual cut-off is about 13 for effective fighting (I don't actually teach anyone younger that 16). However, someone training in the actual fighting techniques at 10 or 11 is forming a very strong base for when their bodies mature enough to be effective with those skills. The same could be said of 8-year-olds, but I think most of what they get is general physical skill, which would be the same thing they'd get from a sport. And as far as fighting to defend themselves against their peers, I think someone in the 10-14 range can do that.


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## CB Jones

From watching my son over the years(started karate at the age of 4), I think they can effectively learn footwork and basic striking fundamentals.

It's a foundation that he will be able to build on as he gets older.

Here he is competing in a couple WKF matches:


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## Steve

Just to try and clarify, it's less about technique and really everything to do with the value of realistic, consistent, direct feedback.  the most common way to get this is through competition.  And for kids' development, I believe it has very little to do with what the activity actually is, and has everything to do with the nature of the participation, the quality of the coaching and the value of realistic feedback that is grounded in performance.


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## CB Jones

I am a firm believer that competition makes everyone better.

Nothing teaches you more than a loss or a failure.


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## Buka

CB Jones said:


> Nothing teaches you more than a loss or a failure.



Except, maybe, a hard fought win.


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## Paul_D

Headhunter said:


> All kata should be based on realism not winning a silly trophy.


Why should it?  Not every martial artist trains for realism.  Some just enjoy competing, nothing wrong with that.  If you want to train for realism great, but don't insist everyone else should.


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## Buka

CB Jones said:


> From watching my son over the years(started karate at the age of 4), I think they can effectively learn footwork and basic striking fundamentals.
> 
> It's a foundation that he will be able to build on as he gets older.
> 
> Here he is competing in a couple WKF matches:



At the two minute something mark - I see your boy understands sidekicking. Pretty darn good for one so young. Nice.


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## Tony Dismukes

Buka said:


> Actually - the eye runs slightly slower than the turn of the head. Less than ten milliseconds. Interestingly enough, when the head snaps either right or left, the eyes move slightly in the opposite direction in order to keep focus within the center of the field of vision.



Cool piece of information. Do you have a source I could look up to read more on that?


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## CB Jones

Buka said:


> At the two minute something mark - I see your boy understands sidekicking. Pretty darn good for one so young. Nice.



Thanks.

The side kick is one of his Sensei' favorite techniques.  So they do a lot of sidekick work on heavy bags.


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## CB Jones

Touch Of Death said:


> Just an aside from the malay. The turning your head before moving, thing, looks cool, but is a bad habit.



Update:  Sensei agrees.

The turning his head was incorrect.

His body should turn as his head does.

He is gonna try and correct that.

Nice catch.


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## Buka

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cool piece of information. Do you have a source I could look up to read more on that?



First picked it up in combat shooting, in re-targeting. I think it has to do with sacades of the human body. (you might want to start there)

I don't remember what studies I've read, but they're out there, and there were a lot of them if I remember correctly. What I do remember is testing it out. The eyes move pretty quickly from right to left and vice versa in a short field in front of you. Like if you look to the wall in the room you're sitting in right now and go left to right. But further from that front spectrum, like to your far right or left, the head snaps quicker than the eyes do, seems more naturaly as well. If you get startled from the side, what moves - your eyes, or does your head snap that way?


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## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> First picked it up in combat shooting, in re-targeting. I think it has to do with sacades of the human body. (you might want to start there)
> 
> I don't remember what studies I've read, but they're out there, and there were a lot of them if I remember correctly. What I do remember is testing it out. The eyes move pretty quickly from right to left and vice versa in a short field in front of you. Like if you look to the wall in the room you're sitting in right now and go left to right. But further from that front spectrum, like to your far right or left, the head snaps quicker than the eyes do, seems more naturaly as well. If you get startled from the side, what moves - your eyes, or does your head snap that way?


But the act of changing direction has you covering in a new direction, and it is OK to look in that direction, before stepping there. This is not related to where your opponent is, but to where you step, and isn't your peripheral vision, to what you just dealt with, lessened, if you too quickly snap the head, toward a new direction?


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> First picked it up in combat shooting, in re-targeting. I think it has to do with sacades of the human body. (you might want to start there)
> 
> I don't remember what studies I've read, but they're out there, and there were a lot of them if I remember correctly. What I do remember is testing it out. The eyes move pretty quickly from right to left and vice versa in a short field in front of you. Like if you look to the wall in the room you're sitting in right now and go left to right. But further from that front spectrum, like to your far right or left, the head snaps quicker than the eyes do, seems more naturaly as well. If you get startled from the side, what moves - your eyes, or does your head snap that way?


That's what I've been paying attention to. When I orient quickly (either startle reflex or just fast orientation) on something behind me, both head and eyes move. I wasn't able to find a study that discussed this when I looked a few days ago - ran into too many talking about the visual blanking during saccades. I may try again with a search in a journal engine, to see if keywords are more useful there.


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## Buka

Touch Of Death said:


> But the act of changing direction has you covering in a new direction, and it is OK to look in that direction, before stepping there. This is not related to where your opponent is, but to where you step, and isn't your peripheral vision, to what you just dealt with, lessened, if you too quickly snap the head, toward a new direction?



Not sure. If your peripheral vision picks up something - that's one thing. If you're startled by something from the side, that's something else. Or is it?


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## Buka

gpseymour said:


> That's what I've been paying attention to. When I orient quickly (either startle reflex or just fast orientation) on something behind me, both head and eyes move. I wasn't able to find a study that discussed this when I looked a few days ago - ran into too many talking about the visual blanking during saccades. I may try again with a search in a journal engine, to see if keywords are more useful there.



This is so much fun. 

But we really hijacked this thread.


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## CB Jones

Buka said:


> This is so much fun.
> 
> But we really hijacked this thread.



Absolutely not.  Y'all just improved it.


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## JR 137

Buka said:


> First picked it up in combat shooting, in re-targeting. I think it has to do with sacades of the human body. (you might want to start there)
> 
> I don't remember what studies I've read, but they're out there, and there were a lot of them if I remember correctly. What I do remember is testing it out. The eyes move pretty quickly from right to left and vice versa in a short field in front of you. Like if you look to the wall in the room you're sitting in right now and go left to right. But further from that front spectrum, like to your far right or left, the head snaps quicker than the eyes do, seems more naturaly as well. If you get startled from the side, what moves - your eyes, or does your head snap that way?



Wouldn't the eyes and head moving at the same time be even quicker, as in moving your eyes right and moving your head too?


Just playing around with it now, it seems like I see something quicker if I start my eyes moving in a direction a split second before I start moving my head then if I move just my eyes or just turn my head.  

Seems like one of those physics questions about compounding the speed of two different objects.

I was taught to turn my head before the next step in kata.  Why?  No idea, I just listen to my teacher.  

At the end of the day, it seems like dissecting something minute.  I don't pay attention to which is moving first during sparring; if I do, it'll be lights out.


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## Gerry Seymour

Buka said:


> This is so much fun.
> 
> But we really hijacked this thread.


I seem to do that, kind of a lot. If I find any studies to discuss, I'll start a new thread for the discussion.


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## CB Jones

gpseymour said:


> I seem to do that, kind of a lot. If I find any studies to discuss, I'll start a new thread for the discussion.



I've enjoyed it.  Y'all took my thread to another level.


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## Tames D

CB Jones said:


> I've enjoyed it.  Y'all took my thread to another level.


You may regret these words 
It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, or your thread gets locked


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## CB Jones

Tames D said:


> You may regret these words
> It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, or your thread gets locked



I do not let fear rule my life.


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## Tames D

CB Jones said:


> I do not let fear rule my life.


Then let the games begin...


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## Gerry Seymour

CB Jones said:


> I've enjoyed it.  Y'all took my thread to another level.


Almost every thread has some deeper (or, in this case, simply tangential) topic that it can swerve to. I've been part of many swerves in the last year.


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## jks9199

Head turns in forms teach us the direction of the form; where is the attacker coming from.  They teach us to see before we go into danger.  Let's use a simple right turn at the end of a reverse punch (left leg forward, right hand punches).  We'll do a simple right hand side block for the hand technique to deal with an incoming head level punch. This is a reasonable sequence I think, that most of us can pretty easily picture, and works across most styles.  You could do it with pure peripheral vision, or merely turning the eyes -- and in real application, you probably would.  But -- a form is demonstrating principles.  By turning the head, we signal to anyone watching that we know where the attacker is, and we ingrain the habit of seeing the attack rather than just mindlessly or without awareness turning to face a threat.


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## Gerry Seymour

jks9199 said:


> Head turns in forms teach us the direction of the form; where is the attacker coming from.  They teach us to see before we go into danger.  Let's use a simple right turn at the end of a reverse punch (left leg forward, right hand punches).  We'll do a simple right hand side block for the hand technique to deal with an incoming head level punch. This is a reasonable sequence I think, that most of us can pretty easily picture, and works across most styles.  You could do it with pure peripheral vision, or merely turning the eyes -- and in real application, you probably would.  But -- a form is demonstrating principles.  By turning the head, we signal to anyone watching that we know where the attacker is, and we ingrain the habit of seeing the attack rather than just mindlessly or without awareness turning to face a threat.


I think the thing some folks will take issue with (and I'd be among them) is that you shouldn't train looking fully, then reacting. The head/look should definitely precede the reaction, but only by a fraction. As soon as you can see that there's a problem on that side, the reaction should start, so those who turn the head fully before starting the next step in the kata are actually training to delay the reaction.

My view, and certainly not the only reasonable one.


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## jks9199

Tames D said:


> You may regret these words
> It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, or your thread gets locked


I'm active in this thread -- but let me slip some insight on thread drift from the Moderator point of view in.  Some drift is nearly inevitable.  If it stays sort of related, and isn't disruptive, we generally let a lot go.  If it starts to get too far afield, we may prune and start a new thread with those posts, suggest a split, or just try to steer it back on topic.  If it gets disruptive... that's when threads get locked.


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## jks9199

gpseymour said:


> I think the thing some folks will take issue with (and I'd be among them) is that you shouldn't train looking fully, then reacting. The head/look should definitely precede the reaction, but only by a fraction. As soon as you can see that there's a problem on that side, the reaction should start, so those who turn the head fully before starting the next step in the kata are actually training to delay the reaction.
> 
> My view, and certainly not the only reasonable one.


Absolutely; it shouldn't be "head looks right, then body turns and moves."  Instead, it's perceive (imaginary) strike, looking starts the turn to face the threat.  Hard to write, easier to show.


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## Gerry Seymour

jks9199 said:


> I'm active in this thread -- but let me slip some insight on thread drift from the Moderator point of view in.  Some drift is nearly inevitable.  If it stays sort of related, and isn't disruptive, we generally let a lot go.  If it starts to get too far afield, we may prune and start a new thread with those posts, suggest a split, or just try to steer it back on topic.  If it gets disruptive... that's when threads get locked.


And what do you do when the thread drift is actually about thread drift??


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## Steve

That's when I say something offensive.  At least, that's the rule book I've been given.  

Seriously, though, I am not at all interested in the current tangent, but am keenly interested in the development of mini-humans.  So, if the thread turns back to kids or training, I'll try to be helpful.


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## CB Jones

jks9199 said:


> Absolutely; it shouldn't be "head looks right, then body turns and moves."  Instead, it's perceive (imaginary) strike, looking starts the turn to face the threat.  Hard to write, easier to show.



That is what his Sensei said.  It's ok for the head to start before the body but the posing with the head turn was wrong and needed to be fixed.

The body should begin orienting and blocking or striking about the same time the head finishes turning.

In the kata, You are perceiving a threat and should be turning to block or strike your attacker not posing for looks.


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## CB Jones

Steve said:


> Seriously, though, I am not at all interested in the current tangent, but am keenly interested in the development of mini-humans.  So, if the thread turns back to kids or training, I'll try to be helpful.



Well it starts with a good performance enhancer.  We use gunpowder + anti-freeze + Raisin Bran.

Gunpowder for explosiveness

Anti-freeze to manage the ice in his veins

And Raisin Bran....just to stay regular.


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## JR 137

Tames D said:


> You may regret these words
> It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt, or your thread gets locked



It's all fun and games until someone looses an eye. Then it's hilarious.


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## Midnight-shadow

Kinda late to the party here but regarding the staff form, I find it curious seeing the differences between the Japanese and Chinese styles of staff. When I do staff I hold the staff closer to one end to increase the range. Then when I swing I slide my hands along to again increase the range of movement. I notice in the video you keep your hand static on the staff except to do spins. 

As for the form itself, I personally would like to see it done slower but that's a personal preference. Also, when doing it slower you can focus on the accuracy of the thrusts. I notice that as you thrust the staff forwards it raises and lowers slightly. If I had a criticism on the technique it would be that, as it shows a lack of control and in my opinion reduces the effectiveness of the strike. As you pull back and thrust forwards the staff should stay parallel to the ground without either tilting or lifting up or down. 

Overall though I liked the form and it's fun seeing a different style of staff use to my own.


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## CB Jones

Midnight-shadow said:


> Kinda late to the party here but regarding the staff form, I find it curious seeing the differences between the Japanese and Chinese styles of staff. When I do staff I hold the staff closer to one end to increase the range. Then when I swing I slide my hands along to again increase the range of movement. I notice in the video you keep your hand static on the staff except to do spins.
> 
> As for the form itself, I personally would like to see it done slower but that's a personal preference. Also, when doing it slower you can focus on the accuracy of the thrusts. I notice that as you thrust the staff forwards it raises and lowers slightly. If I had a criticism on the technique it would be that, as it shows a lack of control and in my opinion reduces the effectiveness of the strike. As you pull back and thrust forwards the staff should stay parallel to the ground without either tilting or lifting up or down.
> 
> Overall though I liked the form and it's fun seeing a different style of staff use to my own.



Thanks.

I agree about the thrusts and that's something we will look at correcting.


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## senseiblackbelt

CB Jones said:


> 11 years old
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/QUOTE
> 
> that's what i call a champion.


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## Chris Parker

Midnight-shadow said:


> Kinda late to the party here but regarding the staff form, I find it curious seeing the differences between the Japanese and Chinese styles of staff. When I do staff I hold the staff closer to one end to increase the range. Then when I swing I slide my hands along to again increase the range of movement. I notice in the video you keep your hand static on the staff except to do spins.
> 
> As for the form itself, I personally would like to see it done slower but that's a personal preference. Also, when doing it slower you can focus on the accuracy of the thrusts. I notice that as you thrust the staff forwards it raises and lowers slightly. If I had a criticism on the technique it would be that, as it shows a lack of control and in my opinion reduces the effectiveness of the strike. As you pull back and thrust forwards the staff should stay parallel to the ground without either tilting or lifting up or down.
> 
> Overall though I liked the form and it's fun seeing a different style of staff use to my own.



Not disagreeing with your observations, with one exception... that's not Japanese bo methods... it's Ryukyu (Okinawan)... Japanese is different again... so you know.


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## Midnight-shadow

Chris Parker said:


> Not disagreeing with your observations, with one exception... that's not Japanese bo methods... it's Ryukyu (Okinawan)... Japanese is different again... so you know.



Ah, my mistake. I always get confused by Okinawan and Japanese.


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## Chris Parker

Not uncommon... for the record, most Japanese systems are performed paired, not solo (commonly against a sword, sometimes another bo), there is typically frequent sliding of the hands, and the staff is often held in thirds. Okinawan systems tend to hold the staff in the middle, without sliding the hands (keeping the grip the same all the way through), and perform solo exercises/kata. Chinese systems often hold at the end, use a lighter, whippier staff, and again have their forms done solo.


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## JR 137

Chris Parker said:


> Not uncommon... for the record, most Japanese systems are performed paired, not solo (commonly against a sword, sometimes another bo), there is typically frequent sliding of the hands, and the staff is often held in thirds. Okinawan systems tend to hold the staff in the middle, without sliding the hands (keeping the grip the same all the way through), and perform solo exercises/kata. Chinese systems often hold at the end, use a lighter, whippier staff, and again have their forms done solo.



I've seen most Japanese practitioners hold the bo under the armpit after overhead strikes and thrusts, and Okinawan practitioners have it outside their bicep.

Is this just coincidental, or is it the norm (of course there are exceptions)?


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## CB Jones

His style is Korean Karate.

His styles weapon forms have both Okinawaan and Japanese influence.

So y'all are both probably right.


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## Midnight-shadow

CB Jones said:


> His style is Korean Karate.
> 
> His styles weapon forms have both Okinawaan and Japanese influence.
> 
> So y'all are both probably right.



"Korean Karate"? That's a new one on me.


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## Gerry Seymour

JR 137 said:


> I've seen most Japanese practitioners hold the bo under the armpit after overhead strikes and thrusts, and Okinawan practitioners have it outside their bicep.
> 
> Is this just coincidental, or is it the norm (of course there are exceptions)?


I'm interested in this, too. I've been working with some different approaches to staff, to see what seems to fit best with my core movements. Sometimes I seem to prefer under the arm, sometimes outside. I'm interested in hearing what the reasoning is behind each.


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## Midnight-shadow

gpseymour said:


> I'm interested in this, too. I've been working with some different approaches to staff, to see what seems to fit best with my core movements. Sometimes I seem to prefer under the arm, sometimes outside. I'm interested in hearing what the reasoning is behind each.



When I'm doing my staff thrusts I position the staff under the arm, due to the specific movement I do. When I thrust forwards I'm taught to twist the staff like a corkscrew to increase the power and focus of the strike. You couldn't really do this if you had the staff outside the arm without the staff tilting. The other thing we are taught is a breaking move, which happens after the straight thrust. Once you thrust you twist the forward wrist to jerk the end of the staff up and then down. This movement is used to push up into the opponent's sternum or to disentangle your staff if it gets caught. Again, this movement would be very awkward to do if the staff was on the outside of the arm. 

Really, the only benefit I can see of having the staff on the outside of the arm is to protect your arm from a counter-strike, but if you position properly this shouldn't ever be an issue in my opinion, and I'd prefer to have the increased control of having the staff tucked under the arm.


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## CB Jones

Midnight-shadow said:


> "Korean Karate"? That's a new one on me.



Style come from Atlee Chittim who studied "karate" in Korea during the Korean War.  After the Korean War he returned to Texas and began teaching.

He would sponsor Jhoon Rhee to come to America and taught under the style name of Korean Karate.

Jhoon Rhee would later switch to using the name TKD.

Our style is more traditional as we emphasize more punching and less big kicks than TKD so we use the style name of Korean Karate.


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## JR 137

gpseymour said:


> I'm interested in this, too. I've been working with some different approaches to staff, to see what seems to fit best with my core movements. Sometimes I seem to prefer under the arm, sometimes outside. I'm interested in hearing what the reasoning is behind each.



Under the arm makes it harder to knock the weapon out of your hands; you're practically hugging it.

Outside the arm is faster.

I guess there's trade offs.  I haven't used a bo in quite some time.  I first learned under the arm.  After my then-sensei left the organization, he revamped the weapons syllabus (incorporating Nishiuchi's system).  The first change was the bo went on the outside.  It took a class or two to adjust, but once I did, holding it inside my arm felt very restrictive.

My current system does under the arm. I haven't gotten to the bo yet in our syllabus.  I miss using the bo.


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## JR 137

Midnight-shadow said:


> "Korean Karate"? That's a new one on me.



I've heard Tang Soo Do referred to as Korean Karate many times.


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## Midnight-shadow

JR 137 said:


> Under the arm makes it harder to knock the weapon out of your hands; you're practically hugging it.
> 
> Outside the arm is faster.
> 
> I guess there's trade offs.  I haven't used a bo in quite some time.  I first learned under the arm.  After my then-sensei left the organization, he revamped the weapons syllabus (incorporating Nishiuchi's system).  The first change was the bo went on the outside.  It took a class or two to adjust, but once I did, holding it inside my arm felt very restrictive.
> 
> My current system does under the arm. I haven't gotten to the bo yet in our syllabus.  I miss using the bo.



You know it's amazing how many different ways there are to doing a simple thrust with the staff. A quick search on youtube and I found 4 different ways, each with a different grip and thrusting technique:





















We could probably spend a year debating the effectiveness of each different style.


----------

