# Hap Ki Do / Aiki Do



## Manny (May 14, 2009)

There are one aikido dojo and one hapkido dojan in my city, the akido is not so far away from my home, the hapkido is on the city limits.

How diferents are HKD and AKD? If I recall they are coming from the same root but there are some diferences beetwen them.

Thanx.

Manny


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## Xue Sheng (May 14, 2009)

All I got is this 

Hapkido

Aikido


But I am sure someone will be along soon with more direct experience and info


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## dancingalone (May 14, 2009)

Hapkido and aikido both stem from daito-ryu aikijutsu.  I've dabbled in hapkido and I am a regular aikidoist, studying under my wife.  In my less than expert experience, I believe the hapkido techniques are done more forcefully and more downward motion in order to bring an attacker to the ground as quickly and painfully as possible, often with an intent to break a limb or joint.  The corresponding aikido techniques are taught in more circular fashion to avoid injury, given aikido's philosophy about ethical self-defense.  Obviously, any aikido technique can be modified to be rougher if one knows how, and vice versa, you can deploy a hapkido pin more gently if desired.

I believe both arts are more similar than they are apart.  I often share aikido techniques within a martial study group I participate in.  The hapkido and jujutsu people there always demonstrate their own versions, and the same concepts which make one technique effective span all three arts.


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## Struk (May 14, 2009)

I would recommend reading this Hapkido writeup.


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## Jenna (May 14, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Hapkido and aikido both stem from daito-ryu aikijutsu.  I've dabbled in hapkido and I am a regular aikidoist, studying under my wife.  In my less than expert experience, I believe the hapkido techniques are done more forcefully and more downward motion in order to bring an attacker to the ground as quickly and painfully as possible, often with an intent to break a limb or joint.  The corresponding aikido techniques are taught in more circular fashion to avoid injury, given aikido's philosophy about ethical self-defense.  Obviously, any aikido technique can be modified to be rougher if one knows how, and vice versa, you can deploy a hapkido pin more gently if desired.
> 
> I believe both arts are more similar than they are apart.  I often share aikido techniques within a martial study group I participate in.  The hapkido and jujutsu people there always demonstrate their own versions, and the same concepts which make one technique effective span all three arts.


Yes, sounds good  

..Or in Hapkido, you get to wear a beautifully criss-crossed gi jacket [I would love one of those], whereas in Aikido you get to wear lovely flowing hakama   Difficult choice, hmmm.. 

Sorry, I do not know enough about Hapkido to even comment, excuse me.  
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## zDom (May 14, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Yes, sounds good
> 
> ..Or in Hapkido, you get to wear a beautifully criss-crossed gi jacket [I would love one of those], whereas in Aikido you get to wear lovely flowing hakama   Difficult choice, hmmm..
> 
> ...



From what I know of Aikido and my training in hapkido, there are significant differences in responses to attacks.

In a nutshell, Aikido tends to be reactive defense whereas hapkido tends to be a bit more proactive. Aikido is more of a soft/inner style with a focus on spiritual self improvement, while hapkido is a mix of soft/hard and (at least they way we train MSK hapkido) very "-jutsu" (i.e., practical) oriented.

As I see it, an Aikido-ka would be inclined to make an attacker "fall down" and then, if they attack again, regretfully make them fall down again.

With hapkido, we would make a (serious) attacker fall down HARD and then strike them to make SURE they don't get up again.


From what I've read/seen of DRAJJ, that is one of the parts of hapkido that seem to show a connection to DRAJJ: the follow up striking to a downed opponent.


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## Xue Sheng (May 14, 2009)

zDom said:


> From what I know of Aikido and my training in hapkido, there are significant differences in responses to attacks.
> 
> In a nutshell, Aikido tends to be reactive defense whereas hapkido tends to be a bit more proactive. Aikido is more of a soft/inner style with a focus on spiritual self improvement, while hapkido is a mix of soft/hard and (at least they way we train MSK hapkido) very "-jutsu" (i.e., practical) oriented.
> 
> ...


 
I have spared aikido people and watched Hapkido spar and I would have to agree. Hapkido looks a bit more painful in attack and defense


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## Chris Parker (May 15, 2009)

Hi,

The essential difference between any different martial arts is not one of technique, but one of philosophy. I believe that is what many before me have been getting at when talking about the application of the two systems in question.

So my question to yourself would be this: Which philosophy suits your personality better (at this point in time - remember, people change as much as they stay the same!)? Which do you find yourself being more drawn towards? Are you more comfortable learning a system which advocates an immediately destructive response to an aggressive attack, or are you happier learning a more "compassionate" method of handling an attack?

Both arts are incredibly good at their approach, both arts will give you similar physical skills, both arts will lead you through a wonderful journey, it is just up to you as to where.

By the way, there is no better or worse here, simply better- or worse-suited to an individual. Too many times we answer these questions with "This art has strikes, that one gives you weapons, this one teaches ground work etc..", but with so similar arts, we can't really do that here. The distinction has to be personal. So I will end with the common advice, visit both schools, talk to the instructors, talk to the students, and allow that to guide your decision more than the little differences. It will make a bigger difference than technical aspects, anyway.

Enjoy!

PS If you still can't make up your mind after that, there is a little trick involving a coin...

Essentially, take out a coin. Any coin, doesn't matter. Choose one side to be Aikido (say, heads), and one to be Hapkido (tails). Flip the coin. Now comes the clever bit.

Look at the coin.

You have your answer.

Not what side it lands on, but how you respond to the way it landed. Let's say it landed on tails (Hapkido), and you feel relieved, or happy. Great! You now know that Hapkido is what you were really after all along! Or, if you end up with tails, and feel a little disappointed, or find yourself wishing it was heads, great! You now know that Aikido is your chosen art! Easy!

Cool trick, huh.


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## Struk (May 15, 2009)

I believe the teacher is more important then the art you end up deciding on. Go and visit both schools and see how they train and if you like the teacher or not.  Even if you like one of the arts more than the other a bad teacher will make you dislike it.


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## Jenna (May 15, 2009)

There are many Aikido variants (OP has not stated which is available to him)  While essentially, the ethos in Aikido is one primarily of defence, that in no way precludes its being 1). a "hard" style or 2). a art that uses strikes - I think, respectfully, that these are Youtube misconceptions often levelled at Aikido.  In my own Aikikai style, which perhaps most closely mirrors the original teachings of Morihei Ueshiba, the intent of our defence is sought in tandem with the intent of not harming the opponent.  But that is a philosophy.  Were an Aikikai practitioner to disavow that philosophy she or he could torque out techniques to happily dislocate and fracture.  Without wanting to create a contradiction, there can be as much "jutsu" in Ai-ki-do as in any other martial system.  

And without wanting to sound argumentative, the idea of causing an opponent (in a real life scenario) to repeatedly fall down with the wild hope that he in some way comes to his proper moral good senses is almost absurd.  The intention via Aikido is not to harm him in the course of our defence.  If pain is mandated in the securing of that defence, then it is as easily applied as in any other martial form   I am not trying to start any argument, and but I think the notion of "soft", atemi-less Aikido is a common misconception.

Again though, there are folk on this forum also who practise what might be regarded as "harder" styles that exemplify that "jutsu" more than my own style   I am only giving my experience 

I am aware that nothing I have said has answered the comparison question, and but I am not at all knowledgable in Hapkido and am happy to defer to those with Hapkido expertise  Sorry 

I think Chris Parker and Struk are right though to look at the wider issue - it would make most sense to simply sample both classes to find which is best match to your requirements 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## bluekey88 (May 15, 2009)

As a former aikidoka that has had some exposure to hapkido.  Similar arts, more striking in Hapkido.  Basically, a difference in philosphy.  BOth are excellent arts.

the best li ne I ever read regarding the difference between Aikido and Hapkido was this bumpers sticker line:

"Hapkido:  Aikido's ugly cousin."



Peace,
Erik


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## Manny (May 15, 2009)

Struk said:


> I believe the teacher is more important then the art you end up deciding on. Go and visit both schools and see how they train and if you like the teacher or not. Even if you like one of the arts more than the other a bad teacher will make you dislike it.


 
Makes sense!  Thank you very much.

Manny


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## Struk (May 15, 2009)

Jenna said:


> the intent of our defence is sought in tandem with the intent of not harming the opponent.


 
I think this is the fundamental difference. In Hapkido we don't care/care less about the opponent. Our techniques can easily be escalated into breaking bones and dismember our opponent if necessary. If our opponent hits the floor we don't want him to come up again. 

Now I believe there are even more flavors of Hapkido than Akido. So the intensity and execution of the techniques is different for several of the different types of Hapkido. Some has introduced high flying kicks and acrobatics into Hapkido others have stayed closer to the original curriculum. Hapkido is still evolving in different directions so you will not know what you are going to get before you try it.

I have had the privilege to study under two excellent teachers in two different flavors of Hapkido and I enjoy it very much.


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## dortiz (May 15, 2009)

"The empty handed fighting techniques were known for their blending of the hard and the soft, linear and circular attacks based on Won Kwang Bopsa's concept of the unity of the opposites embodied in the Um-Yang. The ferocious fighting spirit of the Hwa Rang became legendary and their deeds were recorded in poetry and literature. This literature became part of Korean folklore and heroic legend and evolved into a system of ethics and morality that was essential to the evolution of the martial artist since their dedication to duty and self sacrifice rested on something larger than themselves. 

These deep historical and philosophical connections sets Hapkido apart from Aikido that has its own particular philosophy developed by the founder Uyeshiba."

Struk, 
I cant recommend folks read this garbage. This should actually be removed. If you want to have fun read some true historical stories as to what the Hwa Rang were. Flowering Youth ( Beautiful Boys).

Dave O.


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## MrBigglesworth (May 18, 2009)

"Aikido's ugly cousin" - awesome line  That was one of the first impressions I had of the takedowns.
There is definitely a more "aggressive" or "combative" intent in Hapkido.


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## goingd (May 18, 2009)

The main thing separating the styles is that Hapkido includes hard (or just harder) strikes. At least that's kind of what Bong Soo Han said in an interview.


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## Manny (May 18, 2009)

As long as I saw in videos, aikido is something more spirutual where the tke downs,pins,arms locks etc are like dancing, HKD is more hard and morre combative.

Manny


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## Korppi76 (May 18, 2009)

I think hapkido has more focus to kicks and strikes than aikido.
And what I have tried, direction of techniques are little bit different.


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## matt.m (May 21, 2009)

Honestly there are different strains of hapkido and aikido respectfully.  There is different intent between the techniquing of the 2 arts.  The big difference is how it is taught in the school you attend.

To be perfectly honest it is about the school and the instructor and group of people you will train with.  It really comes down to do you want to train japanese or korean?


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## MrBigglesworth (May 21, 2009)

Struk said:


> I think this is the fundamental difference. In Hapkido we don't care/care less about the opponent.



Aikido shows more "care" to an opponent, but in that unique way of thinking the Japanese have, where it is easy to absolutely bury your opponent and "love" them at the same time.
The main "care" they have relates to the connection between the 2 people. It is also about controlling, but by being more sensitive to them, it makes it easier to feel the best way to control them (and easier in training to poleaxe them but to not hurt them at the same time ;-).

Shioda (one of Ueshiba's early pupils who formed his own style) had the idea of "generous technique", which was all about feeling joy in the technique well executed. He tells a few war stories in his book about being attacked and marvelling at some punch he threw. The fact that he killed the guy with a punch is only mentioned as an afterthought.



Struk said:


> Our techniques can easily be escalated into breaking bones and dismember our opponent if necessary. If our opponent hits the floor we don't want him to come up again.



Aikido can easily be escalated in the same way. Letting them get up again makes it easier to train, and Aikido has more throws from my limited exposure to Hapkido so far. That said, take a look for things like "ude garame", "irimi nage", "shiho nage" and "irimi tsuki". I defy most people to walk away from one of those executed aggressively on hard ground.


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## zDom (May 22, 2009)

MrBigglesworth said:


> ... and Aikido has more throws from my limited exposure to Hapkido so far. That said, take a look for things like "ude garame", "irimi nage", "shiho nage" and "irimi tsuki". I defy most people to walk away from one of those executed aggressively on hard ground.



Depends on the style of hapkido.

Moo Sul Kwan hapkido is known for its powerful, full-circle throwing  which is clearly due to the Yudo background of those who founded/passed on this style.

From Wikipedia (before the hapkido entry was vandalized to remove this important information):



> Won Kwang-Wha, was one of the earliest students of Korean hapkido under the founder of the art Choi Yong Sul and Suh Bok Sub. He was a pioneer of the art opening one of the first schools for the art in Seoul, the Moo Sool Kwan.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



Park Lee-Hyun (better known as Lee H. Park) was the founder of the (American) Moo Sul Kwan in Cape Girardeau, Mo.

Suh Bok Sub and Lee H. Park were both Yudo black belts before beginning hapkido.


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## Jose Garrido (Jun 9, 2009)

Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.

Jose Garrido


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## matt.m (Jun 10, 2009)

*Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.

Jose Garrido* 

Yes,

No record was kept indeed. However, it begs the question why a record would have been kept to begin with? Let's see, Japan was "Colonizing" Korea. "Reform" whatever you want to call forcible occupation. The Japanese thought of Koreans as "Less than a dog" for all intensive purposes and treated them horribly. I mean come on, what would come to mind if you heard "Russia is now 'Occupying' the United States." I suppose you would think good things were to come right?  I suppose that "Imperialism" is a great thing.

I have seen many a youtube video concerning daito ryu aiki jiu jitsu, well there is no mistake of the similiarity between what I have seen and our MSK techniques. Oh and furthermore, there is no way Choi could have possibly shown up in Taegu out of the blue and known jiu jitsu. It just isn't fathomable.

I may have a judo certification from the USJA, etc. However, I have yet to find a yudo governing body. All of my back ground is korean when speaking of martial arts.


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## Gordon Nore (Jun 10, 2009)

matt.m said:


> *Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.*
> 
> *Jose Garrido*
> 
> ...


 

Matt and Jose are quite right. There is no documentation linking Choi Yong Sool to Takeda O'Sensei. Searches of the Takeda family archives reveal no record of him as a student. Assertions that he was Takeda's adopted son are unlikely. Some have speculated that he may have been a servant.

Generally, though, many agree that if Choi didn't learn Daito Ryu Aki Jitsu from Takeda, he certainly learned it nonetheless. The practice of Hapkido is pretty varied. One can find HKD schools where no striking or kicking is taught, which I believe is pretty close to how Choi taught it. Other schools are different. One also runs into schools that claim to teach Hapkido, but have simply added a few wrist twists to a curriculum of kicking and punching.


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## zDom (Jun 11, 2009)

Jose Garrido said:


> Just want to make one small point....There are no records that were kept by Sokaku Takeda that indicate that Hapkido is based on Daito-ryu. Although this is the historical root that Hapkido claims. Aikido does have records to back their claim as having Daito-ryu as there root as indicated in Sokaku takeda's records.
> 
> Jose Garrido



Yep, this is true. And DRAJJ practitioners never get tired of repeating this.

Let me ask you, though, Mr. Garrido (and I've always wanted to ask a DRAJJ practitioner this question): Do you or do you not see a "family resemblance" to DRAJJ in hapkido?

I know Choi being trained by Sokaku isn't documented, that there is absolutely NO proof. But what do you, personally, think?

Was Choi a martial art genius that watched, recalled and figured out how do do hundreds and hundreds of techniques that look remarkably like DRAJJ? If so, Choi did himself a disservice by claiming he was "taught" by Sokaku.

Did someone ELSE train him? If so, Choi did that person a disservice as he apparently did a great job of passing along a difficult martial art.

Or did Sokaku, because of racism or whatever reason, teach Choi but never document it? If so, Sokaku did himself a disservice by not taking credit a for remarkable and historically noteworthy artist.

The fact is, most westerners only recognize TWO of the long list of "important" martial artists supposedly taught by Sokaku: Ueshiba and Choi.

Personally I doubt that Choi ever had a certificate and that the "I lost it story" was fabricated. But I do NOT doubt that he was taught DRAJJ techniques over many, many years &#8212; probably by Sokaku, but perhaps not.

So DRAJJ is justified in continuing to point out that there is no documented connection between the two arts. A shame, in my opinion, because I see it as highly likely that hapkido will outlive DRAJJ. A day may come when DRAJJ is no longer trained by anyone and is only remembered due to the alleged connection to hapkido.

And, it follows, that without us bastard, unacknowledged hapkido'ists, Sokaku's name might very well be forgotten. As it is now, without hapkido I would have never have heard of him in the first place.


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## Jose Garrido (Jun 11, 2009)

Daito-ryu will be rembered if anthing  because of the wide spread teaching of Aikido.

But IMO only, eventhough there is also an Okinawan martial art that resembles DTR (the name escapes me now), that art did not come from DTR.

Choi may have been a martial genious gleaming principles and techniques from various arts. From what I have seen from the softer forms HKD if he did take Daito-ryu it was probably more the Jujutsu than the Aikijujutsu.

I will most definately admit to some similarities. But the roots cannot be proven.

I am also a longtime Nihon Goshin Aikido practitioner and the oral history of that arts also states that it came from DTR. But this also cannot be proven.

Both NGA and HKD are effective martial arts, so why try to trace it back to DTR? Let them stand on their own merits.

Jose Garrido


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## zDom (Jun 12, 2009)

Jose Garrido said:


> Both NGA and HKD are effective martial arts, so why try to trace it back to DTR? Let them stand on their own merits.



HKD does stand on its own merits, unsubstantiated origins notwithstanding.

But some folk (like me, for instance) like to know where things come from.

I won't tell those who ask me that HKD definitely came from DRAJJ, but it is my opinion that it is very likely that is where the "yawara" Choi taught came from.

But then it is also my opinion that Choi himself never actually taught "hapkido" &#8212; that it only became hapkido when his first-generation students mixed in all the other stuff (mostly the kicking, but other stuff as well).

We all gather what facts we can and form beliefs, hopefully reasonable beliefs, based on at least some conjecture.

As for Aikido being widespread &#8212; not so much in Southeast Missouri. This is hapkido country


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## CDKJudoka (Jun 12, 2009)

matt.m said:


> I may have a judo certification from the USJA, etc. However, I have yet to find a yudo governing body. All of my back ground is korean when speaking of martial arts.



I thought USJA/JF recognise yudo and have it in their organisation, or at least recognise the rank.

*Card carrying USJA member here.*


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## matt.m (Jun 12, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> I thought USJA/JF recognise yudo and have it in their organisation, or at least recognise the rank.
> 
> *Card carrying USJA member here.*


 

I too am a card carrying member of USJA.  Love the organization, I am just saddened to see them get into the trouble they have with USA Judo.  I mean the fact that I wish there was a U.S. Yudo Association that was recognized for competition.

I am not 100 % sure of the details however USA Judo has set some kind of regulatory action against the USJA.  I caught a snippet, but ya know the USJA is a great organization that was born out of the UFJA.


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## matt.m (Jun 14, 2009)

I stand corrected.  It is the Armed Forces Judo Association, AFJA not UFJA.  I still have a membership card from being on the all marine team.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 27, 2009)

Jenna said:


> There are many Aikido variants (OP has not stated which is available to him) While essentially, the ethos in Aikido is one primarily of defence, that in no way precludes its being 1). a "hard" style or 2). a art that uses strikes - I think, respectfully, that these are Youtube misconceptions often levelled at Aikido. In my own Aikikai style, which perhaps most closely mirrors the original teachings of Morihei Ueshiba, the intent of our defence is sought in tandem with the intent of not harming the opponent. But that is a philosophy. Were an Aikikai practitioner to disavow that philosophy she or he could torque out techniques to happily dislocate and fracture. Without wanting to create a contradiction, there can be as much "jutsu" in Ai-ki-do as in any other martial system.


That sums it up pretty well.

I find Hapkido to be essentially practical Aikido.  By that, I mean Aikido without the intent of not harming one's attacker.

Daniel


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 27, 2009)

I feel and such that Hapkido, Aikido, and Kung Fu are all very hard to put into a style they are to me and my other brother in hapkido a philosophy.


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## Ty Hatfield (Jul 28, 2009)

Here is a web site on History of Hapkido

http://modernhapkido.org/history.htm

here is a good site for explaining Aikido

http://vsa.vassar.edu/~aikido/aikidohistory.htm


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## elder999 (Jul 30, 2009)

Jose Garrido said:


> Daito-ryu will be rembered if anthing because of the wide spread teaching of Aikido.
> 
> But IMO only, eventhough there is also an Okinawan martial art that resembles DTR (the name escapes me now), that art did not come from DTR.
> 
> ...


 
THen there's this little anecdote, part of an interview Stanley Pranin did with Ueshiba's son:



> _AikiNews: It is true that a Korean named Choi who founded hapkido studied Aikido or Daito-ryu? _
> 
> _Doshu:I dont know what art it was but I understand that there was a young Korean of about 17 or 18 who participated in a seminar of Sokaku Takeda-sensei held in Ashikawa City in Hokkaido. It seems that he studied the art together with my father and would refer to him as his senior.
> 
> ...


 
Richard Kim once said that Choi studied with Yoshida Kotaro-and that Chois Japanese name was also Kotaro-though they were not related at all.  

In any case, Choi* was* in Japan, and learned _something_ there-before he called it hapkido, he called what he was teaching in Korea _yawara_, which is a lot like saying jujutsu in a very (even more?) generic way.

In the end, well never know for sure: there are lots of reasons that Chois name might not appear on a register of diato-ryu students, even though he studied:nationalism, odd relationships-someone once suggested that he just peeked in the door and gleaned enough info that way, which would be waaay impressive, considering the product. 

All the players who could answer definitively are dead, though.


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## howard (Jul 30, 2009)

elder999 said:


> In any case, Choi* was* in Japan, and learned _something_ there-before he called it hapkido, he called what he was teaching in Korea _yawara_, which is a lot like saying jujutsu in a very (even more?) generic way.
> 
> In the end, well never know for sure: there are lots of reasons that Chois name might not appear on a register of diato-ryu students, even though he studied:nationalism, odd relationships-someone once suggested that he just peeked in the door and gleaned enough info that way, which would be waaay impressive, considering the product.
> 
> All the players who could answer definitively are dead, though.



That's an excellent summary of the purported connection between Daito-ryu and hapkido.

The suggestion that Choi could have learned what he did through observation only is simply impossible to believe. If you're experienced in any jujutsu-based art, and you observe the yawara that Choi taught his direct students (which can still be found in organizations like the Jungkikwan), you will know right away that Choi had lots of training in a sophisticated form of jujutsu that has plenty of principles and techniques in common with Daito-ryu.

There was word a few years ago that one of Choi's daughters was going to publish her memoirs; they were supposed to include photographs and comments from people who were his contemporaries in Japan that would have gone a long way toward proving that he trained in Daito-ryu. But, as far as I know, the memoirs have not yet been published (certainly not in English).


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