# Grappling yes or no



## terryl965 (Oct 1, 2007)

What real benefits does grappling really bring to the table if push cames to shove, I mean if you where attacked on pavement would you still bring them to the ground or how does one handle these types of stituation?
I know what I would do but a pure grappler or wrestler how do they benefit themself when this occurs. I'm not looking for any agruments just real serious answers.

I wrestled in high school but that was a sport and I would never try some of those move in a real fight especially on a pave ground or sidewalk.


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 1, 2007)

The one big advantage I see is pretty much *any* takedown practiced safely on a mat could become a potential instant fight ender on pavement.


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## terryl965 (Oct 1, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> The one big advantage I see is pretty much *any* takedown practiced safely on a mat could become a potential instant fight ender on pavement.


 
So how do we avoid this in Grappling.


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## Andy Moynihan (Oct 1, 2007)

My instinctive reply is "by doing it FIRST" :evil grin:

As for stopping it happening to you, Like anything, your ability to stop a grappling technique from being applied to you is in inverse proportion to the amount of hold the miscreant in question has on you.( I.E. if you're trying to play catch up and execute a defense AFTER you've already been bear-hugged, bodypressed, or underhooked or single-legged---you ****ed up). 

It goes without saying that familiarity with grappling to some extent wil help you understand reasonable defenses against them, but as a general rule:

*I would advise against using the traditional "slap" of the palm against a mat to aid in breakfalls such as is commonly done in Judo/Jujutsu circles. I only made that mistake ONCE on a hard tile floor and never needed to make it again. Instead, on hard ground or pavement I would recommend tucking your chin in all the way and using the largest and most shock absorbing muscles in your body (Back, thighs, buttocks) and try to get in a pose where you can roll on and off the surface rather than fall straight, absorb all the force, and snap, crackle, pop, rice krispies.

That's if you're already falling.

If you are lucky enough to intercept before the attempt can be completed, your training will dictate how you do this, but same as with strikes, nobody's going to be putting any force behind *anything* if they cannot move, for example, their leg or spine. I'm speaking from my limited but improving Silat background but we have entry techniques built to lock up exactly those two things upon entry--if you allow him control of his body, and allow him to keep his balance, he'll have his mobility and we'll be in a fight. This is bad.

Manipulations of the spine can come from all sorts of directions though--The workout I had the weekend I met with Sheldon he asked me to shoot in on him and do a single or double leg takedown. I was about three quarters there when he yanked me up by my chin and there wasn't much I could do to complete the shoot at that point because he had levered my neck to control the direction of my spine and once he had my spine he had my body.


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## bigfootsquatch (Oct 1, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> What real benefits does grappling really bring to the table if push cames to shove, I mean if you where attacked on pavement would you still bring them to the ground or how does one handle these types of stituation?
> I know what I would do but a pure grappler or wrestler how do they benefit themself when this occurs. I'm not looking for any agruments just real serious answers.
> 
> I wrestled in high school but that was a sport and I would never try some of those move in a real fight especially on a pave ground or sidewalk.


 
Grappling has his it's place, and since you are just refering to grappling in general and not a particular style, I would say that first of all, grappling training generally builds alot of stamina and endurance, so this would help sharpen one's senses. The takedowns could def be fight enders, providing you don't fall and end up being your attacker's cushion!!  Now, I think the locks you learn with the various grappling styles can be applied in stand up and help end a situation without too serious of an injury, unlike strikes and kicks.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> What real benefits does grappling really bring to the table if push cames to shove, I mean if you where attacked on pavement would you still bring them to the ground or how does one handle these types of stituation?
> I know what I would do but a pure grappler or wrestler how do they benefit themself when this occurs. I'm not looking for any agruments just real serious answers.
> 
> I wrestled in high school but that was a sport and I would never try some of those move in a real fight especially on a pave ground or sidewalk.


 
A few things that come to the top of my head:

1) It'll ensure that you have a basic understanding of the ground.  Someone who has zero grappling in their background will most likely be a fish out of water.

2) It'll give you the basics, ie: some offense/defense, as well as being able to properly get back to your feet.



terryl965 said:


> So how do we avoid this in Grappling.


 
I'll use falling as an example.  I train my breakfalls on a mat.  The risk of injury isn't that high.  I've fallen a few times outside.  This was not a training session.  Once was on some ice.  Needless to say, I landed and was able to get back up without injury.  

The moral of the story...if its done properly, there is a good chance the risk of injury to you will be minimal.


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## terryl965 (Oct 2, 2007)

MJS said:


> A few things that come to the top of my head:
> 
> 1) It'll ensure that you have a basic understanding of the ground. Someone who has zero grappling in their background will most likely be a fish out of water.
> 
> ...


 
Thnks Mike but here is a question how do you fall on pavement if you have to, lets say going backward, do you use the the lower part of the back and roll toward the middle or do you try and turn to your side to avoid any type of back injury. Remember we are just talking grappling no Jujitsu or anything like that.
Thanks


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 2, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Thnks Mike but here is a question how do you fall on pavement if you have to, lets say going backward, do you use the the lower part of the back and roll toward the middle or do you try and turn to your side to avoid any type of back injury. Remember we are just talking grappling no Jujitsu or anything like that.
> Thanks


falling on pavement is gonna hurt either way. I would have to say that if at all possible fall on you ***. It has the most padding (well in my case LOL) so it should take most of the impact, even if you break you butt (i love saying that for some reason) it is a lot better than falling on your back. There have be incidents of people falling from no more than six inches, landing on there back and not being able to walk again. If you can fall on you butt, i would try to fall on my side, again a broken arm (if that happens, obviously worse case senario,) or a couple bruises is a lot better than a a spinal injury.

B


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## Ybot (Oct 2, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> What real benefits does grappling really bring to the table if push cames to shove...


When you are talking grappling, are you only referring to mat work?  Or are you talking about all grappling including takedowns, throws, sweeps, standing joint locks, and choking techniques?

I will answer as though you were talking about mat grappling.



> ...I mean if you where attacked on pavement would you still bring them to the ground or how does one handle these types of stituation?


I would have to say yes, I would, if I could do so without putting myself at further risk.  In a one on one encounter or a situation where the fight is likely to be contained quickly by outside intervention (school yard, or a club or event with security personnel).  Grapplers have the advantage on the ground, and can most easily control and contain an opponent there.  If I'm put in a situation where I have to fight, a little road rash is the least of my worries.



> I wrestled in high school but that was a sport and I would never try some of those move in a real fight especially on a pave ground or sidewalk.


Have you ever wrestled with a non-wrestler.  How many of those moves does it really require to impose your will on them?  Once you have them on the ground it leaves room for a controlled response.  I don't have to choke them, but I can.  I don't have to punch them, but I can (yes grapplers can strike whether trained or not).  I don't have to break their arm, but I can if the situation calls for it.

Now, obviously it's not safe in every situation to go to the ground with someone.  In which case, again, if for some reason you are dragged down in a fight being the more dominate grappler makes it easier for you to quickly reverse a bad ground position, and then return to your feet.


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## MJS (Oct 2, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Thnks Mike but here is a question how do you fall on pavement if you have to, lets say going backward, do you use the the lower part of the back and roll toward the middle or do you try and turn to your side to avoid any type of back injury. Remember we are just talking grappling no Jujitsu or anything like that.
> Thanks


 
As KempoGuy06 stated, its going to hurt no matter what.  IMHO, the point is to minimize the injury.  I'll take a little bruise or being a little sore over a break, anyday.  The most important thing to try to do is keep your chin tucked to avoid hitting the head.  

Its hard to explain without a visual, but I'll do my best.   When I work breakfalls going straight back, I try to include a slight roll, as well as making contact with my butt, lower back and then the upper portion of the back.  Think about when we walk.  We don't just stomp our foot down, we make contact with the heel, then the bottom, then the ball of the foot.  

When falling on the side, I can still get a small roll in there as well.  

When I fell on the ice, I landed on my side.  The side of my leg was a little sore, but nothing that didn't go away within a day or two.  And I still managed to hang onto the leash, as I was walking my dog.  How that happened I don't know, but it did. 

Anyways...I hope this answered your question.  Like I said, in a case like this, a visual is better than words. 

Mike


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 9, 2007)

MJS said:


> As KempoGuy06 stated, its going to hurt no matter what.  IMHO, the point is to minimize the injury.  I'll take a little bruise or being a little sore over a break, anyday.  The most important thing to try to do is keep your chin tucked to avoid hitting the head.
> 
> Its hard to explain without a visual, but I'll do my best.   When I work breakfalls going straight back, I try to include a slight roll, as well as making contact with my butt, lower back and then the upper portion of the back.  Think about when we walk.  We don't just stomp our foot down, we make contact with the heel, then the bottom, then the ball of the foot.
> 
> ...


Would this be best to practice on mats first and then like grass? Do you practice on concrete at all

B


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## MJS (Oct 9, 2007)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Would this be best to practice on mats first and then like grass?


 
IMHO, yes.  Just like learning anything new, especially for the first time, safety, etc should be taken into consideration.  So yes, to aid in the prevention of injury, I'd say starting off on a soft surface is the way to go.




> Do you practice on concrete at all
> 
> B


 
Me personally, no.  I have however done them on a wood floor and on carpet.  Keep in mind, the carpet, while may provide some protection, had little to no padding, so when you fell, if you didn't do it right, you'd feel it.   The time that I slipped outside, I landed on ice on the asphalt.  I was a bit sore for a day, but no sprains or breaks. 

Mike


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 9, 2007)

MJS said:


> IMHO, yes.  Just like learning anything new, especially for the first time, safety, etc should be taken into consideration.  So yes, to aid in the prevention of injury, I'd say starting off on a soft surface is the way to go.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thats cool. Thanks for the advise.

B


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 9, 2007)

I personally feel that grappling is an important tool to have to make you a more all-round fighter.  I've heard stories of individuals who study TKD or Karate or some other stand-up only martial art, who have either in training or on the street been taken to the ground, and have not known what to do.

I personally fell that to be an effective martial artist one should feel as comfortable on the ground as they should on the feet.  On the flip, one should train to have the ability to not be taken to the ground as has been stated already, being taken down on to a hard surface will almost always result in injury.​


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 9, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> The one big advantage I see is pretty much *any* takedown practiced safely on a mat could become a potential instant fight ender on pavement.


 
This is very true especially if the other person does not know how to fall. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Grappling *is important* as it is just one more area that you may or may not have to deal with during a physical encounter.  Having the skills to grapple, force a break, choke or effect an efficent take down are equally as important as kicking, hand striking, trapping and joint manipulation.  Even more important though is knowing how and when to use tools to give yourself an enormous advantage in a physical confrontation.

In order to be proficient in your personal protection skills you must have some diversity and be able to deal with threats posed by all kinds of individuals.


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## dru123 (Oct 9, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> I personally feel that grappling is an important tool to have to make you a more all-round fighter.  I've heard stories of individuals who study TKD or Karate or some other stand-up only martial art, who have either in training or on the street been taken to the ground, and have not known what to do.
> 
> I personally fell that to be an effective martial artist one should feel as comfortable on the ground as they should on the feet.  On the flip, one should train to have the ability to not be taken to the ground as has been stated already, being taken down on to a hard surface will almost always result in injury.​



I totally agree. Why would you risk being taken down to the ground and getting the snot kicked out of you when you could be doing at least a little bit of grappling training to prepare you? I personally take a BJJ/MMA class once a week for this very reason. I think many MA's think they can not be taken down, but with the popularity of MMA, Ju jitsu, boxing, and wrestling, there are many people who know how to take someone down. Plus, it's easy to trip/slip during a fight. I personally would not want to go down in a street fight. I have learned a good sprawl and think I would be difficult to take down by your average Joe, but if I do go down, I have the knowledge of what to do to hurt the person and be able to get back up quickly (and deal with his buddies if needed).


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## buldog (Oct 9, 2007)

Speaking from the point of view of the uneducated fighter, the few real fights I have ever been in always went to the ground.  Also being a short guy I would rather take it to the ground where reach is basically nullified.  That being said I haven't been in a real fight in more than 20 yrs(since I worked as a bouncer in college) and I have walked away from many situations since.  I would rather some drunken idiot call me a coward than spend years in jail for kicking his butt or waking up in the hospital saying "what hit me?".


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## KempoGuy06 (Oct 11, 2007)

buldog said:


> Speaking from the point of view of the uneducated fighter, the few real fights I have ever been in always went to the ground.  Also being a short guy I would rather take it to the ground where reach is basically nullified.  That being said I haven't been in a real fight in more than 20 yrs(since I worked as a bouncer in college) and I have walked away from many situations since.  I would rather some drunken idiot call me a coward than spend years in jail for kicking his butt or waking up in the hospital saying "what hit me?".


Thats a great attitude to have. One, which you will hear this a lot, a lot of people seem to forget. 

B


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## buldog (Oct 11, 2007)

Yeah Kempoguy06,  There is only one thing to remember.  Make sure you keep an eye on the jerk as you walk away!!!  Just a few weeks ago a good friend of mine was hit with a cheap shot to the back of his head as he walked away from some young drunk outside a bar in Charleston, SC.  He was knocked unconcious and when he fell he hit his face on the curb(OUCH!).  He suffered facial fractures all across his upper jaw in a line just below his nose(he could actually move his upper mouth back and forth).  He is also a BB in Karate (either shorinryu or isshinryu) so he could have really beat the guy down if he wanted to.  Unfortunately he wasn't as observant as he should of been due to a few too many beers.  He didn't press any charges and feels embarassed that he allowed himself to get blindsided by some young punk.     
                                  Scott


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## Kwan Jang (Dec 5, 2007)

I teach and train in MMA and submission grappling is a very important part of what we do. I am also a very big and strong individual who was a former national-level strength athlete, so I love to tie people in knots. Having said that, in a real fight, my strategy towards the ground is to use my grappling skills to keep off of it or to post back to my feet as quickly as possible. The limit to my mobility and damage I may take from the enviroment itself is enough to keep my rolling to the mats.

I would however use stand up grappling, including jointlocks and chokes, as a method of defending myself without inflicting too much damage on an attacker if I felt I had the oppurtunity without danger to myself or to others. I would prefer to choke someone out than risk causing serious damage with a strike (or not getting the job done by pulling my strike too much in fear of doing too much damage). These types of techniques can give me good control and an option to get the job done, but avoid serious injury and the legal reprecussions that go along with causing serious permanent injury. ("Don't fear the six guys with uzis, fear their lawyers")

I think it goes without saying that having both ground striking and grappling skills are a must for effective self defense and to be a well rounded martial artist. However, the only real time I would recommend going to the ground on purpose in a real fight is if the opponent has you outgunned or outclassed in striking or stand up. Take them out of their element and hope that they don't know how to defend against your ground skills.


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## Tyler1 (Dec 5, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> What real benefits does grappling really bring to the table if push cames to shove, I mean if you where attacked on pavement would you still bring them to the ground or how does one handle these types of stituation?
> I know what I would do but a pure grappler or wrestler how do they benefit themself when this occurs. I'm not looking for any agruments just real serious answers.
> 
> I wrestled in high school but that was a sport and I would never try some of those move in a real fight especially on a pave ground or sidewalk.


 
There are tons of wrestling takedowns, and throws that work on hard surfaces real well, just make sure your the one doing them .

I've been around great wrestlers, my brother several time state place winner, best friend 2xstate champ, and others (I placed in state also).  *We'll wrestle on concrete, tar, gravel, whatever.  It's all about how your going to land on the opponent if you throw, or if you sweep or trip.*

In most confrontations I found most wrestlers will, like most martial artists,  back away, they have nothing to prove/self control, distance control, and ability to read if they are going to be attacked.

I watched my brother get attacked after leaving a college wrestling dual,  I was a block away, he spun around one of the three individuals and suplex threw him on the concrete, that person was done, before I got there my brother was kicked in the face by the other, got up, went into his wrestling stance, to attack "face first" (he was going to shoot), and got stabbed in the lead leg. *No defense from a strike*.

If I was being attacked from a "*pure grappler*" I would strike first and keep backing away and striking, they will lead face first, watch for the shot, if they get a hold of you they aren't going to be afraid to crash into concrete, tables, whatever. I threw a guy and myself onto a pile of bikes (I was defending myself) but I knew he was going to land on his back, on the bikes.  No strikes were needed, I dropped on him and locked up his arms.

I always told my friends that if they are going to have to scrap get the guy in a bear hug *first *before he can start to swing, trap an arm and they are yours. But if they start swinging at you, and they are good, cover up and get away till you can get the distacnce you need to get a grab on them.


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2007)

Good posts and advice here! From a womans perspective being able to fight on the floor is invaluable as the chances are that if you are attacked it's more liable to be a rape situation than a straight street/bar fight (though increasingly we are seeing women fighting in this way, usually alcohol related) and there's a good chance the attacker will be bigger and stronger.Of course you can use all the usual SD weapons, nails, biting, eye gouging etc but knowing that many MMA/BjJJ fights are won from underneath and knowing how to do it lessens the panic factor and means you can work to get away. I wouldn't though unless very desparate take a fight to the floor purely because I am small. Even if I take some down I tend to go down with them due to their size, I've come up with the strategy of always landing elbows first on them lol! We practise defences against takedown a lot though and it's surprising how effective they can be even against bigger people.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 6, 2007)

Another great thing about grappling is that you become used to contact and also you will get in great cardiovascular shape! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  In a real world self defense situation both of these attributes can pay off in a big way!


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## Tyler1 (Dec 6, 2007)

I just thought about another terrible habit wrestlers have, we don't fight off our backs, as soon as we feel we are tipping to our back we roll over to our stomach.  On goes the choke hold, or if we stand up we are set up for a person to throw us in the suplex.

I think it would be a great idea (dangerous idea) to teach wrestlers how to tap out wrestle as a drill, add in a starndard arm bar, chokes, triangle, etc. and let them go at it.  If it was a highschool wrestling room parents would freak out.


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2007)

Tyler1 said:


> I just thought about another terrible habit wrestlers have, we don't fight off our backs, as soon as we feel we are tipping to our back we roll over to our stomach. On goes the choke hold, or if we stand up we are set up for a person to throw us in the suplex.
> 
> I think it would be a great idea (dangerous idea) to teach wrestlers how to tap out wrestle as a drill, add in a starndard arm bar, chokes, triangle, etc. and let them go at it. If it was a highschool wrestling room parents would freak out.


We've had Judo players who've come and trained with us and been caught because they turn off their backs. I think if it was 'sold' it as a BJJ drill for self defence, have a special session for it,  parents wouldn't freak too much? It's always interesting and helps training if you can introduce something new.


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## Trent (Dec 14, 2007)

Groundfighting and grappling is a must to have in any comprehensive martial system.  Aside from the advantages listed above, it is nearly impossible to learn how to avoid being taken to the ground and remain standing (i.e., have a genuinely good base and evasive movement) without learning how to grapple in some manner whether it be a western or easter style of wrestling, jiu-jitsu, judo, silat, qinna, etc.  If someone doesn't have a clue, or much training, in grappling and the other person does, the stand-up guy's odds of avoiding being taken down and introduced rudely to the concrete is very low, and I'd much rather be punched in the face than thrown to the ground by someone who knows how to do both having experienced both many times.

It's almost like many grappler's attempting to enter a kickboxing match without having learned that peculiar footwork, how to take and give a punch or kick (many grappler's I've met are very leery of being hit in the face)-- odds are it won't be good at all for the grappler.


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## rock_chick1991 (Jan 8, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> The one big advantage I see is pretty much *any* takedown practiced safely on a mat could become a potential instant fight ender on pavement.


 
Well i have been grappling for a bout 2 years now in goju ryu karate, i find it quite heplful to be able to know how to takedown a person mroe easily. It has alos helped me to see a different side to my style of karate, i practice it regularly with men larger than me as i am not of the exact great height i need 2 know how to find my opponents weaknesses. Grappling is a good thing to know as it is one thing which you could use to help defned yourself in many fights you may get into on the street.


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