# so you got knocked over, now what?



## Shaolinwind (Jun 17, 2005)

Today I had a very enlightening lesson teaching methods of defending yourself in the unfortunate event you get knocked down. 

What I learned is as follows. Firstly, if you fall back immediately go into a crabwalk and send your heel up like an arrow. If you fall forward, chances are your opponent is behind you, so on to the hands and balls of the feet and kick much like in the crab posture. This one we call spider posture. And if you're already flat on your back, just do a reclined inside-outside followed by an outside-inside with the second leg, then there's an oppurtunity to do a side cutter. This is the flowering kick, frequently seen in movies when a martial artist propells themselves to their feet from a reclined position. I can't do that, lol. 

That's about all I got, can anyone else add their thoughts on repelling an attacker from the ground?


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## KenpoTex (Jun 17, 2005)

The first priority is to get back up, you don't want the guy (and possibly his buddies) doing the "riverdance" on your face.  

Basic goals: roll to your back, keep your feet between yourself and your opponent, get up using the "guarded standup" AKA, "street-fighter standup."  How does this work?  Start from lying on your back, roll to one hip (we'll pick the left for the sake of this illustration).  Plant your "top" foot and bottom hand (since we're on our left hip this means the right foot and left hand).  Push up so that your hand and foot are the only things touching the ground (left leg is able to kick or check, right arm is in front to block), swing your left leg back through between your right foot and left hand and stand up. 

The benefits of this technique are that you are always in a postition to kick to create space should the attacker close on you.  By using this method, you also move your head away from the attacker rather than toward him.  There are various other methods, for example "propelling yourself up" like you mentioned, however, once you start this move you are committed and are leaving yourself off-balance and open to an attack.  If you saw the last UFC (52 I think), a guy tried this method to get up and popped up right into a roundhouse kick to the face.  I'll leave this one to the guys on the movie screen.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 17, 2005)

In the (many  ) times that I have been knocked down I learned through hard trial and error that the best way is to tuck and roll foing forward or backward to a fall. This method is probably best taught/learned from by aikidoists,  hapikidoists as well as jujitsuists and those who study Judo (pls. correct me if I'm wrong). Tucking and rolling prevents or minimized injury. Even in a non-combat situation it can be very helpful. Two weeks ago I crashed my bicycle at a high rate of speed (for a bike 40-45 mph is pretty fast... going down long and steep hill). In short hit a bump and caught air and the front tire landed badly and I flew over the handlebars. Next thing I know I'm on the ground on my back and sustained surprisingly very few injuries which included a cracked rib, road rash on my left hip and a hole in my left elbow which required five stitches. 
My head and the rest of my body and my whole right side except for the palm of my right hand were untouched. I went over the accident while I was (waiting) to get stitched up... seems that I tucked and rolled as soon as I cleared the handle-bars and thus protected my head and the rest of my body. My elbow must've hit the pavement and then was forced into my rib which cracked (it was an old injury anyway...same place) it. I wear no helmet while riding (yeah, true, stupid) but I still instinctively protected my head by tucking my chin into my chest and using my strongest muscles (shoulders and back) to asorb the brunt of the impact. 
Same with a fight. If a guy manages to get into your "center-of-gravity" and throw you off your tripod then by tucking and rolling into a ball quickly as possible you're best able to get back on your feet to face your opponent again.  Or at least you'll be protecting your *most* vital of vitals... your skull/brain. Because without that... the fight is good as finished and you're carried by six to your final (earthly) resting place. 
:asian:


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## kempo-vjj (Jun 17, 2005)

We practice our rolls and falls most nights, I would probally like said above roll out if possible. This last week we when over something, about being on the ground, on back with the attacker circling for a strike. Instructor says the person on the ground can move much quicker than the person circling, turn to side keep your back away from them feet up ready to strike back. Then get to your feet fast when open.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 17, 2005)

I have done the 'tuck and roll' several times in sparring when I've gotten off balance and gone down.  It helps minimize the impact and will get you back on your feet quickly


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## 7starmantis (Jun 17, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> What I learned is as follows. Firstly, if you fall back immediately go into a crabwalk and send your heel up like an arrow. If you fall forward, chances are your opponent is behind you, so on to the hands and balls of the feet and kick much like in the crab posture. This one we call spider posture. And if you're already flat on your back, just do a reclined inside-outside followed by an outside-inside with the second leg, then there's an oppurtunity to do a side cutter. This is the flowering kick, frequently seen in movies when a martial artist propells themselves to their feet from a reclined position. I can't do that, lol.
> 
> That's about all I got, can anyone else add their thoughts on repelling an attacker from the ground?


 Well, having a set (static) technique to use when falling down is pretty naive. There are so many different things that could change, one static technique is not going to work. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "crabwalk", but if your talking about putting your hands down on the ground, I would say thats a bad, bad idea if being thrown to the ground with any force. Never try to catch yourself on your hands, bad idea. Also, when falling in any direction, I would highly advocate usin a roll. Your "falling forward" scenario could be quite good, if you include a forward roll right after that "mule kick". Again however, never on your hands, your could really hurt yourself doing that. Being flat on your back you have several different option, not one of which would I include a "kip-up". Yeah, I thought of that UFC video as well, and I've seen that happen from time to time in my school. A roll is going to be one of your best friends in that situation.

  7sm


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## Makalakumu (Jun 17, 2005)

One of the things that I really like about Tang Soo Do is their training in what we call "one up - one down" sparring.  We start the training with breakfall drills where the uki must immediately assume a guarded position on the ground.  This position allows the person to turn as an attacker circles, kick or sweep the attackers feet, and protect the head from any attacks that reach over the guard.  This position is only held long enough until an opening allows one to get up.  

When we are sparring, if one person goes down, the match continues.  The attacker tries to get in on the defender and the defender attempts to back the attacker off so they can get up.  This gets really hairy when two or more attackers join in...


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## MA-Caver (Jun 17, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> One of the things that I really like about Tang Soo Do is their training in what we call "one up - one down" sparring.  We start the training with breakfall drills where the uki must immediately assume a guarded position on the ground.  This position allows the person to turn as an attacker circles, kick or sweep the attackers feet, and protect the head from any attacks that reach over the guard.  This position is only held long enough until an opening allows one to get up.
> 
> When we are sparring, if one person goes down, the match continues.  The attacker tries to get in on the defender and the defender attempts to back the attacker off so they can get up.  This gets really hairy when two or more attackers join in...


Heh, you think? You should see how hairy (and frightening) when it's on the street and for real... especially being the one on the ground. 

It's a good tech to learn without question. Am wondering if you train outside as well. The psychological effects are radically different. In a park on the grass or in an alleyway (one that's been cleaned of broken glass and other harmful stuff ... for the sake of practice) creates a different psychological impact than on the soft mats of the floor of the dojos.   :idunno: Worth a try wouldn't you agree?


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## TigerWoman (Jun 17, 2005)

One response, if the opponent is not on top of you and there is some space between you and him, is to roll over on your side and sidekick his knee or head if he is coming in. Or it can just keep him away.  You can rotate/swivel easily on your hip which is on the ground.  I would rather get out of this position though as soon as possible and up on the feet.  TW


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## searcher (Jun 17, 2005)

One word:  UKEMI !!!!!


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 17, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> The first priority is to get back up, you don't want the guy (and possibly his buddies) doing the "riverdance" on your face.


Arg, one of the worst I could imagine done on my face, lol. 

Anyhow, absolutely I'd try and get up fast, but I also think there is an advantage to attacking in a position from which no attack is suspected.


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 17, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Well, having a set (static) technique to use when falling down is pretty naive. There are so many different things that could change, one static technique is not going to work. I'm not quite sure what you mean by "crabwalk", but if your talking about putting your hands down on the ground, I would say thats a bad, bad idea if being thrown to the ground with any force. Never try to catch yourself on your hands, bad idea. Also, when falling in any direction, I would highly advocate usin a roll. Your "falling forward" scenario could be quite good, if you include a forward roll right after that "mule kick". Again however, never on your hands, your could really hurt yourself doing that. Being flat on your back you have several different option, not one of which would I include a "kip-up". Yeah, I thought of that UFC video as well, and I've seen that happen from time to time in my school. A roll is going to be one of your best friends in that situation.
> 
> 7sm


 
I don't want to seem like these are "my scenarios" or that these are my ultimate model for defending myself when I slip up.  They are just what I learned that day and I was interested in learning more.
 Since each situation is unique, having a static set of anything to use during anything is naiive isn't it?  

I am not sure why using one's hands to aid them in their fall is bad, isn't it a little safer than falling on ones' face?


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## Blindside (Jun 17, 2005)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> One response, if the opponent is not on top of you and there is some space between you and him, is to roll over on your side and sidekick his knee or head if he is coming in. Or it can just keep him away.  You can rotate/swivel easily on your hip which is on the ground.  I would rather get out of this position though as soon as possible and up on the feet.  TW



Kenpotex's technique that he described (above) transitions through this position toward getting up, try it.

Lamont


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## TigerWoman (Jun 17, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> The first priority is to get back up, you don't want the guy (and possibly his buddies) doing the "riverdance" on your face.
> 
> Basic goals: roll to your back, keep your feet between yourself and your opponent, get up using the "guarded standup" AKA, "street-fighter standup."  How does this work?  Start from lying on your back, roll to one hip (we'll pick the left for the sake of this illustration).  Plant your "top" foot and bottom hand (since we're on our left hip this means the right foot and left hand).  Push up so that your hand and foot are the only things touching the ground (left leg is able to kick or check, right arm is in front to block), swing your left leg back through between your right foot and left hand and stand up.



I tried that...thanks Blindside for pointing that out.  It worked pretty good with our ground sidekick. TW


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## 7starmantis (Jun 17, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> I am not sure why using one's hands to aid them in their fall is bad, isn't it a little safer than falling on ones' face?


 Every person I've seen who didn't know how to fall stuck their hands down to try and catch themselves. Everyone of them also injured their hands, wrist, elbow, or some joint or muslce of their arm or arms. We usually use a roll, in the air or even using the forearms to catch the fall if completely neccesary, but sticking your hands out is pretty dangerous. Especially since if you think about it, most likely your arms will be locked when the contact is made on the floor. If they aren't locked, what good will they actually do anyways?

 7sm


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 17, 2005)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Every person I've seen who didn't know how to fall stuck their hands down to try and catch themselves. Everyone of them also injured their hands, wrist, elbow, or some joint or muslce of their arm or arms. We usually use a roll, in the air or even using the forearms to catch the fall if completely neccesary, but sticking your hands out is pretty dangerous. Especially since if you think about it, most likely your arms will be locked when the contact is made on the floor. If they aren't locked, what good will they actually do anyways?
> 
> 7sm


Oh I gotcha, that makes perfect sense.   Though I don't know if they actually told us to fall onto our hands, and your use of the term roll rings a bell to me as being part of getting to the point where you are up on your hands. I'm a KF noob still, I apologize if out of my lack of knowledge I am not properly descriptive.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 18, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> Oh I gotcha, that makes perfect sense. Though I don't know if they actually told us to fall onto our hands, and your use of the term roll rings a bell to me as being part of getting to the point where you are up on your hands. I'm a KF noob still, I apologize if out of my lack of knowledge I am not properly descriptive.


 No problem, its hard to comunicate things sometimes via this medium. There are specific technical details that are hard to describe online sometimes.

 7sm


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## still learning (Jun 19, 2005)

Hello, Great topic to share!  There will never be two same situtions and locations of grounds.(grass,dirt,cement,wood,carpets and mix floors)

 Your surroundings and people nearby who maybe involved too. (some may have weapons of some kind or ready to stomp you.

 There maybe on common thing we can do on the ground. Fight/kick/hit/bit? from where you are at and try to get up as quickly as possible and maybe run?  Most of you seem to practice some form of fighting on the ground and escaping, this is good.  Technique's use will depend on your own situtions.

 Main thing is to get up standing as quickly as possible if this is the way to escape and defend yourself. (learn from back falls,side,front and variations of falls.)

 Some many things to learn?  Best is to talk or avoid bad situtions. .....Aloha


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## arnisador (Jun 19, 2005)

I've been taught both to get to one's side and sidekick, and to get to crab position. I prefer the side position. In any event, one must keep moving to keep those feet toward the opponent!


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 20, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've been taught both to get to one's side and sidekick, and to get to crab position. I prefer the side position. In any event, one must keep moving to keep those feet toward the opponent!


I would opt for anything other than crab posture, I can barely hold my meaty girth up like that let alone kick. :boing1:


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## searcher (Jun 20, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've been taught both to get to one's side and sidekick, and to get to crab position. I prefer the side position. In any event, one must keep moving to keep those feet toward the opponent!


Its kind of wild that you should bring up the "crab" position.   A few years back one of the Gracies showed how to get up from the "crab" type position.   

From the crab:  1.) place one hand on knee
                      2.) create diagonal stability with foot and hand on ground
                      3.) slide opposite leg between foot and hand
                      4.) create three point contact
                      5.) release hand off of knee and raise to standing position.

The advantage of this position is that single and double leg takedowns are possible plus you can quickly protect your melon.

Sorry for the crappy description.  I am trying to think through the steps and am having a terrible time with it.


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## KenpoTex (Jun 21, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Its kind of wild that you should bring up the "crab" position.   A few years back one of the Gracies showed how to get up from the "crab" type position.
> 
> From the crab:  1.) place one hand on knee
> 2.) create diagonal stability with foot and hand on ground
> ...


Sounds like you got it.  It's basically a variation of the one that I wrote out.  The only differences are the starting postition (crab vs flat on back) and putting the hand on your knee as opposed to leaving it up to check or block.


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 21, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Its kind of wild that you should bring up the "crab" position. A few years back one of the Gracies showed how to get up from the "crab" type position.
> 
> From the crab: 1.) place one hand on knee
> 2.) create diagonal stability with foot and hand on ground
> ...


I'll get back to you when I can do step 1, lol.  

Thanks for that, It makes a good deal of sense.  Funny you should mention the takedown posibility, just today they showed us one, you just sorta do a scissor thing grabbing the ankle with one leg and below the knee with the other and down they go.


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## Paul Genge (Jul 1, 2005)

If knocked to the floor there is every chance that this will be followed up by the attacker kicking you.  Systema's approach to this is very different from what most people practice and uses movement and not techniques to keep us safe.  I have an article and video clip of working from the floor here for those interested in it.


Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## Ubermint (Jul 1, 2005)

Wouldn't it be better...






To control his wrists...





And use the open guard... 

As the gracies have been doing, since they actually win fights from there?


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## arnisador (Jul 1, 2005)

Maybe, if he's got long sleeves that won't rip, and isn't just kicking you in the head so you can't get to them. Without sleeves it's hard to maintain a grip in the midst of a sweaty fight.


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## Ubermint (Jul 2, 2005)

In case you missed it: 





This may not be the best example, as Fedor's GNP was excellent, but it's FEDOR people. and Nog got some guard kicks in. 





I mean seriously, he kicks your HEAD? That's moronic (yes, it's been tried in pride). It's a big sweep or leglock at his doorstep. Did you not see the picture I posted where Ryan knocks Ishizawa out from that position? 

Look, open guard is far from the safest place to be. I could see your reasoning if you'd said "stack and GNP", thai kick his legs or even the sakuraba flying stomp/chop, but you chose possibly the worst example. 

Nevertheless, if you find yourself on your back, open guard/buttscooting is far superior to the Fred Ettish-esque kick-out-his-knee-joint Krottying and systema drunken somersault defenses already suggested. Open guard has a proven track record against the 'roid-ridden and aggresive.


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## Kenpo_man (Jul 2, 2005)

This is the best way to get up if the guy is right on top of you. Good job explaining it.





			
				kenpotex said:
			
		

> The first priority is to get back up, you don't want the guy (and possibly his buddies) doing the "riverdance" on your face.
> 
> Basic goals: roll to your back, keep your feet between yourself and your opponent, get up using the "guarded standup" AKA, "street-fighter standup." How does this work? Start from lying on your back, roll to one hip (we'll pick the left for the sake of this illustration). Plant your "top" foot and bottom hand (since we're on our left hip this means the right foot and left hand). Push up so that your hand and foot are the only things touching the ground (left leg is able to kick or check, right arm is in front to block), swing your left leg back through between your right foot and left hand and stand up.
> 
> The benefits of this technique are that you are always in a postition to kick to create space should the attacker close on you. By using this method, you also move your head away from the attacker rather than toward him. There are various other methods, for example "propelling yourself up" like you mentioned, however, once you start this move you are committed and are leaving yourself off-balance and open to an attack. If you saw the last UFC (52 I think), a guy tried this method to get up and popped up right into a roundhouse kick to the face. I'll leave this one to the guys on the movie screen.


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## still learning (Jul 2, 2005)

Hello, As time goes by (even short ones) the learning never stops.  

 My son and I just came back from a Universal Kempo-Karate Seminar in Las Vegas. One of the things we cover and practice on was  falling on the ground back. We have many different things you can do and we practice the same thing as " Chobaba" did in his practice.  (On the back- kick with the legs and how to counter.)   The simple it is the easlier to do-it. .......Aloha


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## Bod (Jul 4, 2005)

I would suggest that buttscooting/open guard, although good, is not the be all and end all to self defence floor fighting where the fighters are separated.

It works well where:

a: You are fighting one on one and can face your single opponent

b: No stomping on the ground rule applies, as you are mainly avoiding the person approaching and mounting you. Open guard threatens a sweep followed by a dominant groundfight.

c: No kicking in the jewels rule applies.

Don't forget that the most dangerous thing that can happen in UFC fighting in this situation is that as you try to rise the opponent comes over for a mount or even takes your back.

However where there is more than one attacker get up. The most dangerous thing that can happen is multiple kicks to the head and kidneys. This is especially true as primate behaviour in this circumstance is for non-alphas to run in and kick or slap you (depending if you are human or chimpanzee) and then run back out again, while the alpha goes all out.

I don't know if it makes more sense to turn towards or away from the person kicking the head or towards or away from the person kicking the ribs. One way opens up the back of the head as a target and one opens up the kidneys. I was kicked unconcious on the ground years ago but I still have no knowledge of which way is best to turn.

Either way the general rule in a multiple attacker situation would be to roll on the way down and if that fails get up - before they change attack modes and start kicking you.


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## Ubermint (Jul 6, 2005)

Bod said:
			
		

> I would suggest that buttscooting/open guard, although good, is not the be all and end all to self defence floor fighting where the fighters are separated.
> 
> It works well where:
> 
> a: You are fighting one on one and can face your single opponent


Suggest a better method then. That arguement applies just as much to the other methods suggested in this thread[/qyite[



> b: No stomping on the ground rule applies, as you are mainly avoiding the person approaching and mounting you. Open guard threatens a sweep followed by a dominant groundfight.


WRONG 






PLAY MORE SERIOUS 



> c: No kicking in the jewels rule applies...


Just as much to the bottom man as the top man...Though i'm sure I can dig up a brazilian vale tudo fight where the open guard was used AND nut stomping was legal. 



> Don't forget that the most dangerous thing that can happen in UFC fighting in this situation is that as you try to rise the opponent comes over for a mount or even takes your back.


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## Bod (Jul 6, 2005)

Ubermint.

On point a, I don't believe you've refuted my point. Do you believe that the whole point of buttscooting/open guard is to threaten the guard and/or sweeps and or kicks. If so, what use is this strategy when facing more than one opponent. Sure it beats turning turtle. Sure the skills gained will help the mobility that will get you up. But I don't believe that any serious UFC style fighter would suggest fighting from the guard against multiple opponents.

On point b - as your picture shows - turning turtle and staying flat to the mat Judo style (check out the "defenders" foot and leg positions) is definitely worse than open-guard, but is not the same as trying to rise. It's a simple choice between the perils of a stomp in guard or trying to rise and facing the perils of a stomp as you move combined with the perils of someone taking your back as you half turn your back.

I don't know what you mean about playing more serious. Sounds a bit macho to me.

The picture you've shown for point c shows a guy defending blows from another guy in his guard. Are you saying he'd be safer if he was mounted from the front or rear? He is effectively using his knee to diminish the power the attacker can put into his blows, and if he moves that knee at the right moment can cause his opponent to overbalance, and ten control his head and sweep. Harder to do if mounted.

You got to understand that I'm not saying facing a single opponent in buttscoot mode doesn't work, just that it can be an inferior strategy in a different situation. The point of buttscooting is to face your opponent using your legs as a primary weapon, _and stopping your opponent passing your guard_. The pictures you've shown show one on one matches by men wearing kit specifically designed to increase their chances when in a floor position. Cool. The stuff is good training and good competition, I've no problem with that. _But you can't stop two opponents from passing your guard._

That's why I'm with those who say start in open guard and then use the leg through method to get back to your feet.

Personally if I was getting to my feet and someone tried to take my back I'd get back into open guard, then flip them on entry, and get up. If they tried to stomp me as I was getting to my feet I'd roll. If they were an experienced ground fighter and had others with them I'd probably lose, but I've got to try and improve my chances. 

And _staying_ in open guard is going to diminish my chances by the second, as the guys you are not facing take the opportunity to kick you about the head.


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2005)

So much depends on how exactly one falls in relation to one's opponent. It's hard to generalize!


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