# Grandmaster/Datu Hartman Promotion Questions



## Datu Tim Hartman (May 22, 2008)

*ADMIN NOTICE
This thread is an excerpt from the "Questions regarding MA-80"
Please go there to discuss Dan Anderson's MA80 system. 
This thread is intended to focus on Datu Tim Hartman's promotions.

Thank you.*

=========




The Last Legionary said:


> Dan-o,
> I'm bery confused.
> 
> Earlier in this string you said "*1980 is the year I began training*." but just now you said "*did I forget to say this is the first test I've taken in 28 years*?". 2008-28=1980.
> ...



I'm in Atlantic City this weekend for a seminar and tournament, so I'll be brief.

LL-
If Dan wants to test to become a GM in front of the Soke council, that's his right. So we are on the same page I'm not endorsing his decision just his right to make it. Personally I'm not down with the council thing, but I'm not the one testing to become a GM. I would recommend minding your own business and let Dan do his thing.


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## The Last Legionary (May 23, 2008)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> I'm in Atlantic City this weekend for a seminar and tournament, so I'll be brief.
> 
> LL-
> If Dan wants to test to become a GM in front of the Soke council, that's his right. So we are on the same page I'm not endorsing his decision just his right to make it. Personally I'm not down with the council thing, but I'm not the one testing to become a GM. I would recommend minding your own business and let Dan do his thing.


Tim, you're right, it's his right to do as he sees fit. However I don't think you're one to talk about promotions, all things considered.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 26, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Tim, you're right, it's his right to do as he sees fit. However I don't think you're one to talk about promotions, all things considered.


What are you talking about?


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## The Last Legionary (May 26, 2008)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> What are you talking about?


Do you really want me to go there Tim?


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## The Game (May 26, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Do you really want me to go there Tim?


Dude, don't even bother going there. The only people, and I use that term loosely, that still give a **** about that old news are a couple of long exiled hacks and nobodies stuck stewing in their own little fantasy world of envy playing with all their sockpuppets. In fact, they even have their own little mailing list dedicted to constantly harping about it and rarely talking about anything else. Seriously, MT doesn't need the old BS dusted off again. Dead horse and all that brudda.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (May 28, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Do you really want me to go there Tim?


Sure. I doubt you're going to bring up anything that hasn't been said before.


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## The Last Legionary (May 28, 2008)

The Game said:


> Dude, don't even bother going there. The only people, and I use that term loosely, that still give a **** about that old news are a couple of long exiled hacks and nobodies stuck stewing in their own little fantasy world of envy playing with all their sockpuppets. In fact, they even have their own little mailing list dedicted to constantly harping about it and rarely talking about anything else. Seriously, MT doesn't need the old BS dusted off again. Dead horse and all that brudda.


"Dude", it's a legit question. Hartman's history is pretty interesting reading, and as you noted, a regular discussion topic with some. But for the sake of not rehashing old ****, I'll skip the dead horse ****.


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## The Last Legionary (May 28, 2008)

Tim,
 I'm going to lay out a time line here, so follow the bouncing ball Datu. What follows are your own words here on MartialTalk. I'm sure I'll take some **** for this but I'm used to it.




> 10-13-2001
> "I know GM Presas has a brother...Ernesto? Is he involved with Modern Arnis?
> Ernesto has his own art Kombaton. It is not the same program."
> 
> ...



Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a GrandMaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork.  
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.


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## The Game (May 28, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> "Dude", it's a legit question. Hartman's history is pretty interesting reading, and as you noted, a regular discussion topic with some. But for the sake of not rehashing old ****, I'll skip the dead horse ****.


Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days.  The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

As to Dan, he's ok.  Congratulations.


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## The Last Legionary (May 29, 2008)

The Game said:


> Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.


 
I'm afraid I don't know who you are referring to. Care to enlighten me?



Palusut said:


> Errrr,
> 
> Maybe it's time to split this off this portion of the discussion to "Questions regarding T.H." or something.
> 
> T.H. and MA-80 are two separate topics.


 
Fine with me.


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## Morgan (Jun 3, 2008)

The Game said:


> Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.
> 
> As to Dan, he's ok. Congratulations.


 
Mr. Game, 

I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion.  Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:

01-31-2003, 10:19 PM 
Jeff Leader 
Posts: n/a 
Casino Cash: $ 



*Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.*
​On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro​
06-07-2005, 07:18 PM 
arnisador 
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*WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.*
​The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt. 

The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.

The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.

The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.

/s/ Jeffery J. Leader
Jeffery J. Leader
Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro​
Morgan


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## The Game (Jun 3, 2008)

Morgan said:


> Mr. Game,
> 
> I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion.  Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:
> 
> ...


What's your point Morgan?
Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession. 

This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!


> Q- Who promoted Tim Hartman to 9th Degree? A- The World Modern Arnis Alliance Board of Directors. (also referred to as Advisory Board)
> 
> Q- Aren't these his juniors in the arts? A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members hold rank in Modern Arnis issued by Remy Presas, some of them hold rank in other FMA systems, some hold rank in other non-FMA systems. Some hold rank under the WMAA. Some have been training longer, and some shorter.
> 
> Q- Aren't these his students?A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.



At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 4, 2008)

The WMAA training camp starts tomorrow and runs thew the weekend. When it is over I'll be more than happy to address LL's questions about the Presas family endorsement (Kombatan promotion to 9th and GM) I received in April of 2007. I wont be addressing Barber's, I mean Morgan's posts about the 9th degree WMAA promotion. It has been discussed way more than needed. Everyone has said their peace on the matter and are entitled to their own opinions. 

Hope to see some of you at the camp this weekend!


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## Morgan (Jun 8, 2008)

The Game said:


> What's your point Morgan?
> Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession.
> 
> This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!
> ...


 
My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman.  Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.  

Morgan


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## The Game (Jun 8, 2008)

Morgan said:


> My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman.  Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?
> 
> Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.
> 
> Morgan


You don't read too good do ya boy? 
Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.



> Q- Aren't these his students?
> A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.



In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.

Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?

Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all.  Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Chew on that for a few.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 8, 2008)

The Game said:


> Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, _who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student_. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?


 
*Hi Game*,

Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be _his junior_ in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such. 

As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head. 

He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way _and_ the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.

*Morgan*,

Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto _is_ best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.

I knew my announcement would _light up the switchboard_. How's that for showing my age? 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## bobquinn (Jun 8, 2008)

Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's seems to be some whining from the underage. I applaud all that have kept the flame of contraversy alive. I've run stuff with all the freindly faces spoken about with regard to rank and in no doubt they all have game! Bingo.

B Quinn


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## arnisador (Jun 8, 2008)

The funny thing is...all this about _rank_, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack _skill_?


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 8, 2008)

> Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's


Bobby,

I'd _LOVE_ for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...


> The funny thing is...all this about _rank_, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack _skill_?


Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.

Yours,
Moi


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## The Game (Jun 8, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> More FMA political combat? You guys are close to tieing Ninjutsu.


 
FMA politics is a beast all it's own. Has something to do with most of us carry and most of us are a bit nuts from too many headshots. 
:lol:



Dan Anderson said:


> *Hi Game*,
> 
> Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be _his junior_ in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such.


 
So you gave each other rank in each others respective systems.



> As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head.


 
But, what numerical ranks does he hold in all of those? Those numbers seem to be very important to a couple of monkeys I know of.



> He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way _and_ the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.


 
So he is a "senior" on this particular council, but a peer in the arts based on comparable time training and rankings?




Dan Anderson said:


> Bobby,
> 
> I'd _LOVE_ for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...
> 
> ...


 

Richard Harder. You can call me Dick. Half my rep points do. :lol:
I'm a Gemini. My favorite colors are black and blue, and I wear them often. I drive American, and my pickup has a gun rack. Last book I read was Ric Flairs bio, Last movie I watched isn't allowed here, and the last magazine I read had glossy pages and I've heard rumors it has articles but I ain't done found them yet. I love the smell of burning rattan and burnt gunpowder. I train various FMA, have a small private club in NY, and have been at classes involving quite a few names in the arts, including those refered to here.  My favorite drink is cold, frothy and often, and my favorite food is anything you can put tobasco on, which so far is everything.

Now, lets see the other stick smokers ball up and ID.


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## bobquinn (Jun 8, 2008)

Hey Dick,
BQ here we have alot of likes other then the american made thought. Odd training in asian arts! I admire your willingness to hit the mat! Only better colors then Black and Blue are the Red,White & Blue! Hartman,Anderson & Frank are the real deal. Been there, done that. Hey your post makes for, You know your a red neck!

Robert Quinn


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## Morgan (Jun 9, 2008)

The Game said:


> You don't read too good do ya boy?
> Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for your reply and the yes/no answer.  There's no need to 
fine tune the "student" defintion.  It was neither helpful nor harmful.
Your statements are appriciated.

Morgan


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## Morgan (Jun 9, 2008)

Dan Anderson said:


> *Morgan*,
> 
> Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto _is_ best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.
> 
> ...


 
Dear SM Anderson,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

_Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman. 
_
I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.  

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion.  Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point.  Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation. 

Morgan


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 9, 2008)

Speaking of Bram Frank, is this the same person who on at least one occasion brought a live blade onto the training floor and carved up his assistant? I question the judgement of anyone who would do such a thing.

I'm also reserving my comments until Tim recovers from his camp this past weekend and posts his reply to my questions.

I will say this. If he was promoted by students from his school I'd consider that an invalid promotion, to say the least.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 9, 2008)

Morgan said:


> Dear SM Anderson,
> 
> I wrote the following in a recent post:
> 
> ...


Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior. 

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2008)

I got a PM asking me to comment here.  Fine. I'll comment, as me, not as the "Owner".

*Regarding Dan's promotion:*
Dan, I disagree with the idea of these "Soke" boards. Sorry, bit of a purist at heart here, and they ain't real "sokes" any more than I'm a large busted Swedish woman named Inga. But, they are better at evaluating someone's martial skill than I, by a long shot. So, while I disagree with the title usage, if they say you're the goods, then hey, congrats and pats on the back and all that good stuff. Personally, I don't think you, or anyone needs the paper as your real rank shows on the floor, and in the other works you do spreading the arts to new generations of students.  Dan puts out a bunch of books and videos and is out there like him or not. Most of his detractors hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him so I consider their comments worthless.

*Regarding Tim's 7th and 9th's:*
Old news, I'm so tired and bored with those arguments that I wrote the damn faq on them. It's on Wiki (where his entry was repeatedly defaced by a couple of petty individuals from WNY), it's on FMATalk, it's on Martialtalk, and it was posted repeatedly on Jerome Barbers old list.  Bottom line, he was promoted by an organizational board of his peers. recognize it or not, he's still the highest tested in years under Remy. Most of his detractors never did test under Remy, or did for low rank. They also don't like Tim Hartman so I question their ability to accurately and objectively judge his skill.

*Regarding Tim's 9th and GM rank in Kombatan:*
Tim can explain it. My only comment is, I'm sure that GM Ernesto is better qualified to judge who he will issue rank to in his own art, than those who have little to no experience with it.

*Tim in General:*
Tim teaches internationally, and puts out videos and is all over the internet with his name and arts out there like him or not. Most of his detractors again hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him, and won't even post a simple YouTube video of themselves so again, I consider their comments worthless.


Beyond that, when it comes to Modern Arnis politics, and all that ********, leave me the **** alone. I'll gladly shoot pictures, build websites, listen to war stories, and when possible learn cool techniques, but as far as the politics and bad blood and game playing, I'm not anyone's pawn, and I'm not interested in the gaming. Been there, done that, grew the **** up. K? Thnx. 

Now if those arguing will excuse me, I have a couple hundred photos to work through from this past weekends training camp.


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## bobquinn (Jun 9, 2008)

Thank you Mr. Hubbard,

Better have never been spoken.

Bob Q


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## Morgan (Jun 9, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior.
> 
> For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?


 
A very good set of questions.  As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him?  Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system?  I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however.  Other opinions would be helpful.

Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it. 

Morgan


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## MJS (Jun 9, 2008)

Morgan said:


> A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.
> 
> Since this second question could possibly take me back to the Datu Hartman and WMAA matter via a backdoor entrance, I'll simply pass and only acknowledge that I read your question and have though about it.
> 
> Morgan


 
From reading some posts here, it seems that the concerns or questions are...why would you want to promote yourself?  Why would you want to take a title if you didn't earn it?  Why would you test for rank IFO a group that may not have people on the board that train in the art you're testing for?  

So, sure, someone could promote themselves, test in front of a soke board or anything else...but, as I said in another post...its that person that has to live with it.  Someone could walk around with the title Ultimate Supreme GM of the World...I don't care.  That does not impress me.  I've listed what I look for in other posts, so I'm not going to post it again here.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 10, 2008)

Hi All,

This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated.  I am reprinting it here without his permission.

_And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go.  It follows 
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have 
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill, 
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not 
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there 
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to 
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are 
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise 
game plan.  Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business 
practices should be pure is thin morality.

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't 
just a council, it is a community of individuals.  So, when you attack 
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question 
EVERY member of that council.  That isn't very fair, ethical, or 
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other 
parts of the martial arts world as well._

Damn.  Wish I had said that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## The Game (Jun 10, 2008)

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated.  I am reprinting it here without his permission.
> 
> ...


Paul Martin. Isn't he one of the people who were banned from here a while back for excessive **** stirring? *Checks Notes* Yup. Has an obsessive dislike of Hartman? *checks Notes* Yup. Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.

Tells me all I need to know about Mr. Martin's integrity, ethics, and all that jazz.

Now, lets decode his little "morality play".



> Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
> 'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
> are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
> mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
> ...


For those who don't know, Hartman is a member of NAPMA (says so on his website.)
NAPMA has materials referring to a Little Dragons program, which Hartman offers. (says so on his website)
That's the little crack about "McDojo franchise game plan"
He (Hartman) also has a sign that says "Karate" over his school. (See picture of school on his website).
That's the Karate crack.

So that middle paragraph is typical "Barberite" crap, where it's usually little more than "lets be sneaky and take shots at the only successful FMA school in WNY" since we can't hack it ourselves and we're jealous buttholes.

As to the comments here:


> The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
> just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
> the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
> EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
> ...



They sure do take a lot of shots at people on this site, it's staff, it's owner, and so on. But of course, that whole fairness clause doesn't apply here.

Sorry Dan, but those guys are fricken losers, and weree banned from here for very good reasons. Nice to see them still being what they are all this time later.

Of course, more people will read that hre in a ay than read it there in a year. They've got what, 66 readers, most of which never post, and a dozen of which are just the same 4 losers posting to themselves?

Their opinions on martial arts matters aren't worth recycled cat litter.

I still like you though.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 10, 2008)

Dick,

The key point here I wanted to make is that to disfavor a group based on a name is basically unfair. The middle section which is a blast against whoever (whether Tim or not) ISN'T the point I wanted to make and _it is my mistake _for including that section. There are many dojos which have programs that are excellent and many have the same titled programs which are not so good and to lump them all together without inspection is unfair. So, I'll re-post:


> And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
> the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
> dedication...whatever to be on par with them.
> 
> ...


 
This is the point I wanted to make.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 11, 2008)

The Game said:
			
		

> Paul Martin. ...... Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.



I missed the above comment earlier.
A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.




			
				Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> 1. The name of the group is Soke. You are being awfully literal and not conceptual. There ARE a number of japanese and Okinawan stylists on the board, btw.



My reply to this, as I am a purist would be that studying Latin doesn't make me a Roman. Why would studying a Japanese art entitle me to a Japanese Cultural title?

Let me quote William M. Bodiford's excellent article on the topic "Soke: Historical Incarnations of a Title and its Entitlements"


> Who or what is a soke? If Internet websites can be believed, in the English-speaking world the Japanese word soke has become a title for individuals who claim to be "great grandmasters" or "founders" of martial arts.1 Surprisingly, however, the term is not explained in recent English-language dictionaries of martial arts directed toward general readers, nor in the more authoritative books about Japanese martial culture.2 Apparently this very obscurity provides commercial advantage when it is invoked in a competitive marketplace crowded with instructors who promote themselves not just as high-ranking black belts, but as masters or even grandmasters. This English-language usage stands in stark contrast to the connotations of the word soke in Japan where, if it is used at all, it strongly implies loyalty to existing schools, deference to ancestral authority, and conservative adherence to traditional forms. *Despite what many seem to believe in the West, as a Japanese word soke has never meant "founder," nor does it mean "grandmaster.*"



Personally, I think fromm here on out, I'll just ignore that particullar issue. I mean, in all seriousness, given the choice of arguing on the internet or being on the beach taking photos of girls in bikinis, I know what I'll enjoy more.


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## The Game (Jun 11, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I missed the above comment earlier.
> A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.


 
Ok, fine. I'm sorry for the honest misunderstanding on my part.
The rest of my opinion of that group however stands.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 11, 2008)

First of all I think we need to split the thread. 

  LL you wrote:
Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a Grandmaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork. 
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.

  If you're basing things on how many times I've mentioned GGM Ernesto and Kombatan on the net, then you don't know what you're talking about. Let me lay this out for you. 
  1999: 
  GGM Ernesto was hospitalized in the PI and was unsure if he was going to survive. The Kombatan people reached out to me to see if I could get Prof Remy to visit him in case his condition was fatal. I called Remy in the PI and he reached out to his sick brother. Fortunately Ernesto's condition was not fatal. 
  2000:
  I met GGM Ernesto for the first time in Maine. My Kombatan training began. Later that year I traveled to Lake  Tahoe to attend another Kombatan seminar featuring GGM Ernesto and met Rick Manglinong as well.    
  2001:
  I went to Reno and trained with GMM Ernesto again. At this event I formalized having Rick Manglinong teach at my 2002 camp.

  2002:
  I had Rick M. teach at the first WMAA Camp. Since then he has only missed one of the Buffalo camps and has taught at other events with me.

  I have had a lot of exposure to Kombatan in the last nine years. Dont you think I trained during this time? I dont log my training sessions on line for everyones approval. Im surprised that you didnt question my promotion to Master Instructor in Bando Stick Fighting. Using your logic I only mentioned Gyi or his art a few times on the net, so I must not have trained it.

  You quoted me here:

10-13-2001
 Ernesto has his own art Kombatan. It is not the same program."
  Since then I have a greater understanding of the art. What I didnt realize was that GGM Ernesto was teaching what was unique to Kombatan, not what is in common. After years of training and having access to the rank curriculum I realized that there is a lot in common, which only makes sense seeing that Prof Remy taught his two younger brothers?

When GGM Ernesto promoted me part of it was based on knowing the program that had much in common with his own as well as what I have done in and for his older brother's art.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 12, 2008)

*ADMIN NOTICE
This thread is an excerpt from the "Questions regarding MA-80"
Please go there to discuss Dan Anderson's MA80 system. 
This thread is intended to focus on Datu Tim Hartman's promotions.

Thank you.*


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 13, 2008)

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> First of all I think we need to split the thread.
> 
> LL you wrote:
> Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a Grandmaster in.
> ...


Tim, Thanks for the reply. I'm short on time, so will have some more questions shortly.

Kaith, stick to bikini pics.

Game, your off the mark there.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 15, 2008)

Tim,
  Had time to think.

I didn't question your promotion in Bando because I wasn't aware of it, but considering how often you bring Gyi in it makes more sense than your Kombatan promotion.

Here is my questions, I'll have more later.
1 - How do the guys who are pure Kombatan feel about you fast tracking to a GM title in their art?

2 - Correct me if this is wrong. 
You have a GrandMaster title and 9th dan in Kombatan
You have a 9th dan from your organization
You have a Datu title and 6th dan from Remy Presas in Modern Arnis
You have a Master Instructor rank in Bando Stick Fighting from Gyi.
And what rank in Balintawak from I assume Ted Buot?

3 - Who taught you Kombatan?


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 16, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> 2 - Correct me if this is wrong.
> You have a GrandMaster title and 9th dan in Kombatan
> You have a 9th dan from your organization
> You have a Datu title and 6th dan from Remy Presas in Modern Arnis
> ...


 
All I can say and not speaking for Tim, is that Manong (GM) Ted Buot does nto give out certificates or rank in his Balintawak. It is up to each person to make it their own and to prove to others that they have it. 

I do know he told some they could create study groups.

I do know that he told some to teach the art as they were taught. I was one of them. I did not think it was my place to questions the others to that studied to see which ones were on the list to teach. 

Hopefully this coming from me on teh Balintawak issue will answer your question there. Or Tim can reply as well, as he is a big boy.

Thanks


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> I do know that he told some to teach the art as they were taught. I was one of them.



That makes you an instructor in my book.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 16, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> All I can say and not speaking for Tim, is that Manong (GM) Ted Buot does nto give out certificates or rank in his Balintawak. It is up to each person to make it their own and to prove to others that they have it.
> 
> I do know he told some they could create study groups.
> 
> ...


Thank you Mr. Parsons. That is an answer I can appreciate.
Salute!


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 28, 2008)

The Last Legionary said:


> 2 - Correct me if this is wrong.
> You have a GrandMaster title and 9th dan in Kombatan
> You have a 9th dan from your organization
> You have a Datu title and 6th dan from Remy Presas in Modern Arnis
> You have a Master Instructor rank in Bando Stick Fighting from Gyi.


That's right.


The Last Legionary said:


> 3 - Who taught you Kombatan?


My first lessons came from GGM Ernesto and the rest from GM Manglinong.


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 4, 2008)

So, any plans to renounce your Datu title?
Bong renounced his years ago, and Kelly just now. 

What do you say to those who claim "Datu Hartman only
features and promotes himself."? Even I can look at your organization news and events and see that's not true. But still, some are saying that.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 4, 2008)

A little side note here:


I met Professor Moore, whom I believe was the founder and president of The World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame, back in 2002.  After talking with him for an extended period of time and having expressed myself to him on my thought on the martial arts, rank, etc.  he asked if I would sit on the board that viewed applicants testing for sokeship, the title of  professor, GM,  etc.    Now I did not claim to be the head of the system I represent nor did I claim any other wild outrageous titles that would make me equal in rank or above those I was to view, but I was still asked to sit on the board and to make sure those coming before it had actual knowledge and had done something unique to deserve being called the head of a system they had created.
  I declined the offer because after watching some of the members (at that time) strut around like they where gods, belittling anyone who was not wearing a ten inch gold tip on their belts and after watching a few of these sokes demonstrate their stuff while telling everyone how great they where and how much better what the did was than anyone elses.
 I do hope that the quality of those on the board today has improved and that those doing the testing today are more tolerant of those that are still studying and learning the arts.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 As for excepting rank, title, etc. from your own student, or giving one self a higher rank, it depends on many things. Has your organization room to grow in rank if you do not do this?  Why are you doing do or why are they giving you this rank?
 As for excepting rank from an organization such as The World Martial Arts hall of Fame, again it has many as many answers as questions. 

It all breaks down to what you as an individual wants, needs, etc.  If it is something you want to do why not.

 Only time will verify if what you do deserves the title you hold.


As for Tim accepting rank in Kombatan, I am sure that  GM Ernesto is better qualified to judge whom he awards rank to than I am.


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