# McDojo



## Mon Mon (Dec 29, 2002)

Exactly what is a Mc Dojo could some one give me a definition


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## Kirk (Dec 29, 2002)

Check out this thread.
It's intended as a joke, but it's humor based on fact.

Most McDojos have high charges for belt tests, do no self defense
techniques, and an over abundance of forms.  Many are promised
black in 2  years, or some other specific time frame.  The biggest
problem is these people "earn" their black belts and think they
can defend themselves in the street.  HIGHLY dangerous!

The term McDojo is used in reference to McDonald's, where you
can find them on every street corner, and get a "meal" dirt cheap.

Also check out this web site.


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## Kirk (Dec 29, 2002)

I AM THE PRODUCT OF A McDOJO by M.J. Harday

I went into a training program in good faith. I didn't know much 
about karate, or even that there were different types of martial 
arts, but I did know that I wanted to learn how to defend myself.

To someone like me, whose only exposure was through TV and 
movies, when a school opens and you go to see the instructor, 
and he looks like what he does is a lot like the things you see on 
TV, you tend to believe that they really do know what they are 
doing. When the price seems reasonable and he says "you look 
like you're in pretty good shape, good enough I can promise 
you'll be a black belt in 2 years" you get excited, and you sign on 
the dotted line. When he offers you a 10% discount for paying 
cash up front, you jump at it. And then you start your classes, 
knowing that in just 2 years you'll be a black belt and you'll be 
able to defend yourself.

He was right. In 2 years I did get my black belt. I went through 
the test with a dozen other people, and we all paid $500 to test, 
and amazingly enough we all passed. We were downright proud 
of ourselves and each other for getting through 2 years of sweat 
with each other, helping each other to learn along the way.

Our classes just seemed like what a karate class should be. We 
bowed in, we called each other 'sir" and "ma'am"; we exercised 
and pushed ourselves hard to get into shape; we learned 
countless katas and spent hours working on special kicks.

We learned a lot.

What we didn't learn though, and didn't even realize we weren't 
learning, was how to use the techniques that were in the katas. 
We never learned to combine techniques. We never realized just 
because we could do these katas well, and just because we had 
nice looking, fast and powerful kicks, that we didn't know how 
and when to use them. We never sparred. None of us had ever 
taken any real contact.

Most of us, so damned pleased with ourselves for sticking with it 
for two whole years, stayed and went for our 2nd degree black 
belts. And then third. The only thing that changed in the class 
patterns was the katas we learned. But we were doing so well!

I could have stayed on that happy little path for the rest of my life 
if not for what happened to someone else. I wasn't even there, 
but it opened my eyes. It scared me so badly that I had to start 
reading notes posted on the Internet, and comparing what other 
people were saying about their schools to what was going on in 
mine. I even started checking out the things other schools in the 
area were doing.

One of the men I started class with, one of the guys who blazed 
his way through to black belt in 2 years and stuck with it along 
with me was beaten up in a way I didn't think anyone could 
survive. He was a mass of ripped flesh and broken bones and 
blood, and that was after a few days of healing. He lost the 
hearing in one ear and for a while they weren't sure he was going to walk again. All because he was attacked, and he 
thought he knew how to defend himself.

He says now that he was confident until he was hit with the first 
punch. All that kata practice hadn't taught him how to block 
effectively. We were never taught that a kata is a fight from one 
side and that the things we were doing represented someone 
else fighting us. It was just patterns we had to learn. Block-
punch-kick... well how in the hell was that supposed to teach us 
anything when we never really knew what it was in the first 
place, what the movements represented, and how to counter 
attack?

We're not black belts. We're a bunch of well conditioned dancers.

This guy could have died. As it is he will have lasting effects of 
being beaten for the rest of his life. It was an eye opener for all 
of us, when we realized none of us had ever even taken a 
serious punch. Things just kind of fell into place then. We didn't 
spar. We weren't allowed to compete. The reason given that 
sport held no place in his teaching, but the truth is that he 
couldn't afford for us to be exposed to people in the martial arts 
who knew what they were doing.

A few months later, we know. We were conned. This joker left his 
own instructor as a blue belt with only 2 years instruction 
because he thought he was good enough. It wasn't good 
enough. His ego could have gotten any of us killed.

If you own a belt factory, please think twice about what you are 
doing. Your students trust you, and the rely on you to teach them 
well. I spent a lot of years of my life thinking I was being taught 
by a high ranking black belt when he was just a smooth talking 
jerk who couldn't stick with his own training. I thought I was 
about to test for my 3rd degree black belt. Now I know, after 
talking to people and then going to see other schools, that I am 
probably no better skilled than the average 1-2 year student with 
a orange or green belt. I might be faster and have more 
endurance, but they know more than I do.

I have started training now with a Chung Do Kwan teacher who 
is 100% different. Nothing is a given with him. He didn't promise 
me anything and hearing my version of How-I-Got-My-Black-Belt 
insisted I begin as a white belt, and he would give me ample 
opportunity to progress if I learned things quickly.

You know, that first black belt just isn't as attractive anymore.

I just want to be able to defend myself.

If you own a McDojo, think twice. It's not your life that might end 
in a bloody heap on the side of the road. Can you live with that? I 
hope not.


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## Mon Mon (Dec 29, 2002)

Sounds like a dojo i have seen in my area:shrug:


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 29, 2002)

I am  product of a McDojang :wah:  But I'm stuck in a f***ing contract! I want to go back to my TSD dojang


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 29, 2002)

Find an affordable shark (lawyer).  Theres usually an out for you somewhere, either a buy out, or a 'failure to provide goods'... Its also possible that if it is too once sided, it is unenforcable.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 29, 2002)

Ugh, the ever-so-lovely contract.

I know a person who signed up at a TKD school on a contract.  He ended up severely injuring his knee doing something else and couldn't do any physical activity.  School owner wouldn't let him out of his contract.  My friend was in the military and showed the school owners his instructions from a military physician stating he was not to do anything physical.  Still wouldn't let him out of the contract.  If I remember correctly, he just stopped going (and paying) and the school owner probably thought it best not to pursue the matter.

I understand how some schools use contracts as a way to guarantee an income to ensure they can keep the doors open.  However, far too many schools use contracts simply as a way to keep their pockets lined with your money.  In general, contracts = bad.

Cthulhu


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## Jill666 (Dec 30, 2002)

All I can say is life is very short. Don't pay for goods you are not getting. Even if absolutely neccessary you have to pay $$, don't waste your time as well! I have no contract with any school, nobody is ever going to tell me not to learn elsewhere, and I pay on the first of every month, no more. I seek out seminars and extra sessions at other schools, and I hit others expecting to be hit just that hard. I train mainly with men 80-100 lbs bigger, and tell them to cut me no slack. If my block is weak, I get hit. If my sweep is weak, my uke still stands there. If the choke gets locked in, I may have just died. If I wanted to look graceful, I'd have taken dance lessons.:soapbox: 

Sorry got preachy but jeez, time and breath are precious. The story on the 2nd post- nothing short of horrifying.


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## RCastillo (Dec 30, 2002)

Fallen under this McDojo label?

Which arts typically fall within this catagory?:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 30, 2002)

All arts fall under the 'mcdojo' label at 1 time or another.  As I said in another thread, then you have 26yr old 'grandmasters' with only 5 years (or less) training, its too easy.

I'd question anyone who say, suddenly jumped from a 3rd to a 5th to a 10th and grandmaster within a year or so...yet still has trouble with the basics and looks down right scared on a demo tape made only a year before.

Do Kenpo schools fall into this lable?  Yup.  I know of at least 2.  4 different 'clubs', guarenteed time to BB, almost no failures when testing, minimal if any sparring time, and fees for everything. Most of their students get a BB in 4 years, have very sloppy techniques, and couldn't defend against a colicy baby, much less 'Rick the Rapist' or 'Mel the Mugger'.

I trained -briefly- in a karate mcdojo. Too much 'macho' too little 'info'.  I've trained with 'instructors' who want you to know how much they know...see, they tell you all the time, who they know, when they knew, why they new...funny thing is, ya never see them on the mats. They use smoke n mirrors, parlor tricks to impress those who don't know any better. I've found the 'McBozos' in Arnis, Kenpo, Wing Chun, JKD, Tai Chi and beyond.  

How can you tell its a McDoJo?  Look for the 2nd degree BB who's still in diapers....


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## RCastillo (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *All arts fall under the 'mcdojo' label at 1 time or another.  As I said in another thread, then you have 26yr old 'grandmasters' with only 5 years (or less) training, its too easy.
> 
> I'd question anyone who say, suddenly jumped from a 3rd to a 5th to a 10th and grandmaster within a year or so...yet still has trouble with the basics and looks down right scared on a demo tape made only a year before.
> ...



Lord Sidious,

I go by the name, Ricardo, many people call me "RicK', and I ain't no rapist!!! I know you're just joshing here!

Well, one thing I'm doing this year, and long over due, is to purchase  "Fist " gear, to help promote realism, and make sure my people (What few I have ) get their work right, get the feel of power within their work, and take it on someone. (namely me)

I certainly promote sparring, to the extent that we don't kill each other. ( I have insurance, but don't wanna get sued, either) 

I've been lucky, in  that I did not train in a Mc Dojo. Nothing was given to me, and you had to prove yourself. I got knocked down, and did some knocking down on my own. No promises made, no big monies paid out, no exorbatant fees paid. I'm like my old teachers, in that you must also prove youself (Within reason). If I had to go thorugh these requirements, you must do the same. I make just enough money to buy lunch with!

In essence, I asked for no quarter, and I give none. However, I will do everything I can to support, and teach, to make one successful.

Hope I'm in your good graces!


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## GouRonin (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by karatekid1975 _
> *I am  product of a McDojang :wah:  But I'm stuck in a f***ing contract! I want to go back to my TSD dojang  *



While I am not one to tell someone to walk away from their obligation I bet that this guy wouldn't care that much if you walked. If he does, just go be a dumbass student and see if you can get kicked out.


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## RCastillo (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *While I am not one to tell someone to walk away from their obligation I bet that this guy wouldn't care that much if you walked. If he does, just go be a dumbass student and see if you can get kicked out. *



Lord Ronin, good to see you again!:asian:


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## GouRonin (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Lord Ronin, good to see you again!*



Round up the troops Ricardo...it's time to par-tay!


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Lord Sidious,
> 
> I go by the name, Ricardo, many people call me "RicK', and I ain't no rapist!!! I know you're just joshing here!
> ...



I tried to toss some random names out...meant no one in particular....its just that "Brutus the Barber" never struck fear into me, ya know? 

Youre always in my good graces...but heres a task....you must kill Luke Skywalker...or, Jar Jar Binks...either or works for me.


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## RCastillo (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I tried to toss some random names out...meant no one in particular....its just that "Brutus the Barber" never struck fear into me, ya know?
> 
> Youre always in my good graces...but heres a task....you must kill Luke Skywalker...or, Jar Jar Binks...either or works for me.  *



I'll do you one better, THE BOTH OF THEM, no charge!:samurai:


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## Kirk (Dec 30, 2002)

He doesn't say "McDojo", but I bet that's what he meant!

Click here


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Find an affordable shark (lawyer).  Theres usually an out for you somewhere, either a buy out, or a 'failure to provide goods'... Its also possible that if it is too once sided, it is unenforcable. *



As a Sponsor, and someone who tries to tell you guys that you should Never sign Any Contract without having your attorney look at it First, as well as someone who can get you an Entire Law Firm to handle these issues for as little as $16/mo, I am surprised that no one mentioned my link.

So...

Go to the School Management Forum and click on my link and don't ever sign anything again without having your attorney look at it first.

If they tell you they need you to sign now and you can't have your attorney read the contract-Leave!
:asian:


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## Captain Harlock (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *As a Sponsor, and someone who tries to tell you guys that you should Never sign Any Contract without having your attorney look at it First, as well as someone who can get you an Entire Law Firm to handle these issues for as little as $16/mo, I am surprised that no one mentioned my link.
> 
> So...
> ...



Perhaps they are tired of the seeming non-stop self promotion of your ponzi scheme?  You make a good point in stating "ou should Never sign Any Contract without having your attorney look at it First".  I for one would appreciate the easier and more affordable access to those educated in legal matters, however your seeming need to push your services at any opportunity turns me away from your program.

Perhaps good sir, you should try a less invasive and obtrusive manner of promotion...say your signature block for example?

Good day.


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## Rob_Broad (Dec 31, 2002)

Okay Richardo hold on to your hat, I am going to say something nice.  As Al Tracy said many years ago " Karate Paper is useless, it is worth less than the paper it is printed on", meaning they can shout from the roof tops that you have a contract, but it is impossible for them tyo enforce un less they have a billing company, you just have to say they failed to follow through on their end of the agreement which is almost impossible for them to prove they did and it will never make it to court.


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## RCastillo (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Okay Richardo hold on to your hat, I am going to say something nice.  As Al Tracy said many years ago " Karate Paper is useless, it is worth less than the paper it is printed on", meaning they can shout from the roof tops that you have a contract, but it is impossible for them tyo enforce un less they have a billing company, you just have to say they failed to follow through on their end of the agreement which is almost impossible for them to prove they did and it will never make it to court. *



Hey, you jumped the gun. The New Year for nice things to say ain't till tomorrow!


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## Rob_Broad (Dec 31, 2002)

Actually that was my 2002 nice thing, I don't believe in letting it out to early.


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## RCastillo (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Actually that was my 2002 nice thing, I don't believe in letting it out to early. *



I hate it when people wait till the last minute!


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Captain Harlock _
> *Perhaps they are tired of the seeming non-stop self promotion of your ponzi scheme?  You make a good point in stating "ou should Never sign Any Contract without having your attorney look at it First".  I for one would appreciate the easier and more affordable access to those educated in legal matters, however your seeming need to push your services at any opportunity turns me away from your program.
> 
> Perhaps good sir, you should try a less invasive and obtrusive manner of promotion...say your signature block for example?
> ...



There isn't much I can say without starting a flame war but I will point out that almost nothing you have said is true.  

Please contact me privately or start a new thread in the ProShop maybe if you want to continue.  This will make it easier for these guys to stay on topic and for the moderators to keep a watch on us both.


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## Captain Harlock (Dec 31, 2002)

Sir,
  I am not going to involve myself in a 'pissing' match with you.  The majority of posts with you involvement that I have read have had a high percentage of 'You need this' postings.  This is I believe against the rules of this forum.  If in either case I am mistaken, then I do apologize.  My statement was not the beginnings of an offensive, nor was it intended to be false.

  I do not often post, as I tend to be more of a scholar of the arts, with my primary focus on sword arts.  I do tend to check the more trafficed topics out of curiosity, but rarely do I respond.

Regarding quotes, without the full articles, quotes are meaningless.  They can be used out of context as any movie promotion will reveal. 

I do not believe that using your signature as an 'electronic business card' is against the rules.  In fact, I believe it is encouraged, however I may be mistaking this forums policies with another that I frequent. 

I mean you no malice, as your program seems honorable.  It is the way I often see it presented that bothers me. Perhaps a broader clarification of what your program offers and why it should interest us could be presented in the proper fora?

akemashite omedetô Hall-san
:asian:

I did try to respond to your PM, however your mailbox was full.


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## cdhall (Dec 31, 2002)

Thank you Captain.
By my estimate approximately 6, maybe 10 of my postings have included some type of "plug" which puts them at maybe 2% of my posts. 

There is no way that this could possibly be construed as either a "high percentage" or a majority or anything of the sort.

Anyway, I'm not supposed to discuss my product on a message board which is why I always encourage people to visit my link.  There is a movie there and some text based info.  I also think I have a thread here somewhere that does provide some overview.

At any rate, I accept your honorable apology offer and I am very pleased that a potential flame war was avoided.  

I completely respect your idea to say that my product might be crap, or something like it so I have no desire to argue your opinion on this matter.  I have already received an online endorsment from Mr. Billings for example.  It is in a thread somewhere.

I tried to empty my PM box.  I'm glad you contacted me anyway, I wish all the disputes on MartialTalk were only 4 posts long. That would be great.  

Thanks again.  I really am encouraged at how this turned out.  If anyone has a question about my service they can follow my banner link and/or contact me.  For several reasons including insurance regulations, I can't say much else on the board anyway.  If you contact me, please also tell me what State or Province you reside in.  Happy New Year everyone. :asian:


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