# Pinans and SKK



## RevIV

since we were off track on another thread, I would like to start a new thread.  The pinans were added to the curriculum through Prof. Cerio.  They were then modified by him to fit his style of Kenpo.  Then the masters after him who continued to teach modified them even more to suit their understanding of the forms.  Very few of these Masters went and studied the forms in their original way and intentions.  My question is - besides good concepts that could be found, how many of you are required to know techniques from the Pinans and apply them to your self-defense curriculum for rank?  When testing or in class besides working the bunkai, how many of you do reaction drills using the techniques within the form and if you do which ones?  
I was busting Matt's chops in another thread because he is a good friend of mine and i know the owner of the school he works for (both were at my wedding)  and Matt said he would get rid of some of them when he opens his own school some day.  Who else would do the same?  These are hard questions to ask people who have been doing it for a long time and like the forms.  But in Kempo, how does Shotokan make us more fluid?  Some of the teachers i have trained with add a lot of the shotokan forms into their requirements after black belt for further advancement?  Would you think this is good or bad.
In Peace
Jesse


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## IWishToLearn

Coming from a japanese influenced background in the MA, I find I use analogies from my previous forms to provide additional alternate applications and variations to my Kenpo training and teaching.


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## 14 Kempo

Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The basic movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid. We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.

Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes. 
Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.

We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal. I have not done them all this way, but as an example, I have done Pinan #1 as Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake and Dragon. All are a bit different in thier movements, blocks and strikes.


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## LawDog

I was first taught the pinon's in 1970. We did both the air and application versions. When the pinon techniques were applied against an opponent they had to be modified. First of all half mooning is not a linear motion. When you shift your weight onto the supporting leg a minor side shift occurs. When this happens your /12:00/ center line changes. Pivoting to the side or rear is also causes a lateral action. Minor adjustments to the blocking or striking angles had to be made. In many of the pinons there is a pivot to the side with a downward block followed by a cross step with a front punch. Again range problems combined with the laterial action caused many problems during application. There were many varied explainations for this technique. In some of the pinons hand strikes followed a kick, when stepping down from the kick you were outside of the hand strikes power curve. Another pinon had large circular blocks that were applied with a cross step. Again the resulting range was improper for the following strikes. Again this is what happened with the 1970's version.
Because of these and other reasons I dropped the pinons along time ago. I now only use old pinon #1 & #2 to teach proper breathing with continuous motion. These are not rank required forms.


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## fnorfurfoot

My old instructor dropped 1 and 2 pinion a long time ago.  He felt that they were useless forms.  Personally, I teach them to my students more as a way of teaching half-mooning and doing something with your hands while half-mooning.  Over the years I have also come to learn how to pronounce them properly as Pinans and not Pinions.


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## kosho

1 pinion  teaches  basic movement.  then  when you look deeper  it  teaches you throwing arts, controlling arts, escaping arts.  all from the same movements...Think about it  and take a look at it.
Tell your students to try and find what i am talking about... its all there...
Unless you are stuck in a box
Kosho

all katas  have them also.... just look deeper...


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> since we were off track on another thread, I would like to start a new thread. The pinans were added to the curriculum through Prof. Cerio. They were then modified by him to fit his style of Kenpo. Then the masters after him who continued to teach modified them even more to suit their understanding of the forms. Very few of these Masters went and studied the forms in their original way and intentions. My question is - besides good concepts that could be found, how many of you are required to know techniques from the Pinans and apply them to your self-defense curriculum for rank? When testing or in class besides working the bunkai, how many of you do reaction drills using the techniques within the form and if you do which ones?
> I was busting Matt's chops in another thread because he is a good friend of mine and i know the owner of the school he works for (both were at my wedding) and Matt said he would get rid of some of them when he opens his own school some day. Who else would do the same? These are hard questions to ask people who have been doing it for a long time and like the forms. But in Kempo, how does Shotokan make us more fluid? Some of the teachers i have trained with add a lot of the shotokan forms into their requirements after black belt for further advancement? Would you think this is good or bad.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 

i would not get rid of them but to answer your question as of testing for brown belt students are required to come up with techniques from thier forms and use them effectively.
also i do use kempo flow with the pinan forms.
respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

LawDog said:


> ... When the pinon techniques were applied against an opponent they had to be modified. First of all half mooning is not a linear motion. When you shift your weight onto the supporting leg a minor side shift occurs. When this happens your /12:00/ center line changes. Pivoting to the side or rear is also causes a lateral action. Minor adjustments to the blocking or striking angles had to be made. In many of the pinons there is a pivot to the side with a downward block followed by a cross step with a front punch. Again range problems combined with the laterial action caused many problems during application. There were many varied explainations for this technique. In some of the pinons hand strikes followed a kick, when stepping down from the kick you were outside of the hand strikes power curve. Another pinon had large circular blocks that were applied with a cross step. Again the resulting range was improper for the following strikes...


 
This is pretty close to how I feel about them too.

But I am not in a position to dictate if they are taught or not.  not yet.


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## RevIV

kosho said:


> 1 pinion teaches basic movement. then when you look deeper it teaches you throwing arts, controlling arts, escaping arts. all from the same movements...Think about it and take a look at it.
> Tell your students to try and find what i am talking about... its all there...
> Unless you are stuck in a box
> Kosho
> 
> all katas have them also.... just look deeper...


 
Kosho,
for the exact reason you have stated is why i still teach 1 pinan and i kept 2 because it was a creation by Prof. Cerio and i use some techniques from it in my curriculum.  But like others I have discarded 3,4,5 from the rank requirements.  They are not supposed to by soft and circular from their origins, they just became that way.  Lawdog i guess you and i are more on the same wave length for those.  Have a great evening.
In Peace
Jesse
(i am trying to take the parts of the forms that did make sense and put them together in a combined form that helps my students keep some of the old)


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## LawDog

Fnorfurfoot,
I do that pin(on) instead of pin(an) all of the time, just like in kempo - kenpo etc. Spelling properly I do not.


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## RevIV

LawDog said:


> Fnorfurfoot,
> I do that pin(on) instead of pin(an) all of the time, just like in kempo - kenpo etc. Spelling properly I do not.


 
they should def. have a spell check on these forums.  that way i do not have to go to microsoft all the time, type it and make sure its right.  
Jesse


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## RevIV

GM Cunningham,

I was told that you have a very interesting Bunkai to 1 kata, it would be great if we could actually meet up sometime and possibly go over it.  07' was another year for changes.  a small bit in 06' and more this year.  I do my 1 kata more towards GM Pesare's version.
In Peace
Jesse


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## LawDog

Master Dwyer,
 When I am on this forum I usually keep my outlook express on so that I can use the spell check program.


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> GM Cunningham,
> 
> I was told that you have a very interesting Bunkai to 1 kata, it would be great if we could actually meet up sometime and possibly go over it. 07' was another year for changes. a small bit in 06' and more this year. I do my 1 kata more towards GM Pesare's version.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 

is there a big difference?

marlon


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## CTKempo Todd

Speaking of 1 Kata...

Interested in hearing how you all end the form.

Do you:
a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)

I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.

I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.


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## 14 Kempo

CTKempo Todd said:


> Speaking of 1 Kata...
> 
> Interested in hearing how you all end the form.
> 
> Do you:
> a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
> b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
> c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)
> 
> I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.
> 
> I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.


 
"a" could be a functional application using a medium height kick to the waist/hip area. This will bend over the opponent and allow the backfist to reach the temple. You are correct with regards to a high kick, the backfist will not reach the opponent.

"b" is an application that can work, a kick to the knee could bend the opponent over allowing the backfist to reach the temple area as well.

"c" seems to me, might be my capability and flexibility, that if I was close enough to use a #1 or #2 block, which is against a punch, I would be to close to deliver an effective side kick.

Just my 2 cents ...


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## RevIV

CTKempo Todd said:


> Speaking of 1 Kata...
> 
> Interested in hearing how you all end the form.
> 
> Do you:
> a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
> b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
> c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)
> 
> I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.
> 
> I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.


 
  Say person is grabbing RT shoulder with their left hand, backfist face would fit and kicking out the knee would work if you were going for the furthest leg.   You asked the what we are doing here, so i guess i need to throw in that i am doing something different.  GM Pesare brought these Katas to the east coast more than 40 years ago and he says he has never changed them from the originals.  I have learned all 4 of his original katas and they are different then what we do.  I do my ending the same way the he does.  After turn around #2 block back punch (then most would set up for the simo. kick and punch) I pull my arms to a LT cup and saucer ride side kick, then RT cup and saucer left side kick. then finish with a final cup and saucer the the LT.  I would love to know which generation put in the kick back fist with the kick (making it look like all the trophies out there)?


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## Shotochem

CTKempo Todd said:


> Speaking of 1 Kata...
> 
> Interested in hearing how you all end the form.
> 
> Do you:
> a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
> b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
> c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)
> 
> I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.
> 
> I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.


 
Hi Todd,

I look at a like this:

since on most people their legs are longer than their arms,the side kick to the groin or solar plexus bends the attacker over directly into the backfist.

At least that was how it was explained to me in my Shotokan days.

On another note, I agree the pinan/heians do not feel the same when done Kempo like.  Softening them up IMO, just feels wrong.  But that may just be me. 

                                                                 -Marc-


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## RevIV

I guess i should of put the bunkai in that last one.  When you are cup and saucering (is that a word)  you are grabbing the Opponents head that you are back punching and then snapping the neck.  I use this bunkai from the knowledge learned from Prof. Kimo.  His teacher was Prof. Walter Godin, who helped create the Kata's in the Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu system (so i have been told)  Prof Kimo's 1 pinion is similiar to Palama 1 and in there his interpretation after one of the "X" blocks double punch is a cup and saucer to both sides and in that he is grabbing the head and snapping the neck when he changes sides.  IF prof. Godin helped make the Kata's and GM pesare learned this the original way from GM Gascon it seems to fit in a way.  Plus for myself and my students i would rather teach a kata that shows more self defense then a nice punch kick from a trophy.  
In Peace
Jesse


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## RevIV

Shotochem said:


> Hi Todd,
> 
> I look at a like this:
> 
> since on most people their legs are longer than their arms,the side kick to the groin or solar plexus bends the attacker over directly into the backfist.
> 
> At least that was how it was explained to me in my Shotokan days.
> 
> On another note, I agree the pinan/heians do not feel the same when done Kempo like. Softening them up IMO, just feels wrong. But that may just be me.
> 
> -Marc-


 
Marc,
I agree with you, I had to learn the original Heians years after i had learned the pinans and it just did not feel right doing them soft.  
Jesse


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## LawDog

The ending of #1 kata has always had a number of ranging issues.
The rising thrust kick that was/is used is range specific. The closer an opponet moved in towards you the less height you could obtain and still keep it within the power curve of the kick. Where the high chambered thrust kick is not as sensitive to range. Here are a few of the different variations and solutions from the 70's & 80's.
1-From the cover position the hand was thrown out to assist with generating hip power for the kick. Back then this was a common practice when executing a thrust kick,
2-The cover position was done because you grabbed a striking arm and pulled it in.This would bend your opponent over. Then a combination backfist and thrust kick was done,
3-From the cover position a back fist was thrown out with the thrust kick going to the knee,
4-Because the leg is longer it hit the target,(ribs), further out forcing the torso to bend forward and thus being hit by the back fist,
5-From the cover position the arm executed a block with the rising thrust kick,
6-In the early 80's, from the cover position a back fist was thrown while the kicking leg went into a high chamber position then a thrust kick was released.


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## CTKempo Todd

Excellent discussion about the ending of 1 Kata..

This is exactly what I wanted when I posted the questions.

Jesse,
Yup agree with you and hope to see your ending in person of course. Since seeing the bunkai of Prof Kimo's Pinan's cup and saucers, it really has opened up my eyes to all the SKK forms where the Cup and saucer exists. 

Tournaments really have skewed things when it comes to Katas. Here's an idea.
Why not have a category where the Kata's are performed on people? (Sort of like the Self Defense catagory but in grander scale?) Now you can REALLY see what the kata's are and that the practitioner really understands the kata. you'd have a much less 'pretty' kata but a much more practical one. 

I'd like to see the same in weapons catagory as well. (I'd be screwed here ;-)


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## John Bishop

Just out of curiosity, what's a "cup and saucer"?


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## fnorfurfoot

John Bishop said:


> Just out of curiosity, what's a "cup and saucer"?


When one hand is at elbow position and the other hand crosses over your body and rests on top of it.


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## John Bishop

fnorfurfoot said:


> When one hand is at elbow position and the other hand crosses over your body and rests on top of it.



OK, thanks.  In Kajukenbo we call that a "side to side cover".  Pretty common transitional move in our Palama Sets.


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## LawDog

We call that position a side cover position. Our hand placement is closed fist,  palm to palm.


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## CTKempo Todd

LawDog said:


> We call that position a side cover position. Our hand placement is closed fist, palm to palm.


 

Yup..Same thing. 
I wonder if "Cup and Saucer" as I was taught it was called was terminology invented to help a kid (or adult) remember what it looked like and of course the idea was propogated forward by the next generation. (myself included).


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## kidswarrior

14 Kempo said:


> We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.
> 
> We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal.


 
Great idea. I'm going to use this, too.


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## LawDog

I originally had the same question as Mr Bishop did. Cup and Saucer is a new term for me. I will have to ask around the Kenpo community to see if anyone knows the answer.


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## CTKempo Todd

LawDog said:


> I originally had the same question as Mr Bishop did. Cup and Saucer is a new term for me. I will have to ask around the Kenpo community to see if anyone knows the answer.


 

Cool. I hope you are successful. 
The more I think about it...Cup and Saucer is a very visual thing and people can 'see' what a cup and saucer look like in their mind. Good luck and can't wait to hear what you find out. (I want a prize if I am right though  LOL   (..and not a 'cup and saucer' ;-)   )


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## fnorfurfoot

As far as I know the term was made up to give students a visual of what they are doing with their hands.  We use a lot of "in house" terms for moves and techniques.  One that everyone thinks is funny is when we control a partner's head with a finger under the nose.  We call that a "tweety."  A fellow student came up with that years ago and it stuck with me so I've used it ever since.  (In case you're wondering, the nose is the "tweety" bird sitting on the perch, your finger)


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## RevIV

cup and saucer as i have been taught = 1 fist is in chameber the other fist comes across the body in a hammer position resting on top of other hand.

Fist over fist was similiar one hand in chamber closed fist other hand on top closed fist. ( palms would be facing eachother) 

so i even wrote the wrong application -  in GM Pesare's ending of 1 kata he draws in after the back punch with a fist over fist.
Jesse


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## SK101

CTKempo Todd said:


> Speaking of 1 Kata...
> 
> Interested in hearing how you all end the form.
> 
> Do you:
> a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
> b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
> c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)
> 
> I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.
> 
> I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.



Try B with this variation - Your opponent has one leg forward and one back such as a half moon. Side blade kick goes to the knee while back fist goes to the forward temple. Works nice off a single lapel grab. Opponent grabs with right hand. You step back with left into side horse stance simultaneously grab opponents right wrist with your left hand. Right hammer strike to Bicep to numb the arm followed by back fist and side blade kick.


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## SK101

Most people on this site probably have these concepts, but I like to throw the little details out anyway to refresh or for anyone who hasn't received them.

Pinan 1(Pinion 1) - 
Breathing is diaphramic meaning the stomache goes out when you inhale and concaves when you exhale. Your chest should not go up and down.
Horse stance is generally done by placing the feet just beyond shoulders width. 
Placing the feet wider works flexibility of the groin muscles while reducing mobility.
Spine is always straight in order to develop good posture.
The head stays at the same height after the beginning salution to the end salutation.
Staying at the same height makes it harder for opponents to judge distance.
Opening salution knuckle roll across each like gears. 
Hands stay below the eyes so the view is not obstructed.
Inhale while bringing hands together. Exhale as they go out like 7 & 8 blocks.
At some point students should drop to 90 degree horse stance (Parallel to the floor).
Advantage to toes straight ahead is it allows the hips to rotate easier on punches and kicks. 
Disadvantage is there are takedowns based on the toes being straight ahead.
Always look before you turn. 
In most SK forms we turn without moving away. In general when you turn to a direction when you don't know what is there you step away from that area then turn with a block toward that area.
1/2 mooning has two fighting applications Striking the inside of the leg to break balance and to practice shifting the weight evenly on the right and left legs. 
1/2 mooning backwards is never done in self defense application. All techniques that half moon back are to make it easier for the student to learn to keep there weight 50/50. In reality you just step straight back, but you do it still with the weight 50/50 generally to allow maximum mobility to different directions.
When you step out into a half moon from the cat stance turn the torso in the direction of the block. 
Punches are solar plexus level.
Keep a small bend in the elbow for all straight punches unless actually hitting someone who has attacked you. Then lock the elbow.
Only the ball of the foot touches the floor while half mooning.
There are 3 turns learned in Pinan 1 - 90 degrees, 180 degrees, 270 degrees.
Pinan 1 forms the shape of an I or H sideways. 
Advantage of Kias are to surprise an opponent, create more energy, exhale air when someone is striking you especially a solar plexus or stomache strike, tighten the muscles around the internal organs.
Disadvantage of a kia is it lets people know when you are exhalling. 
There are no Kias in Shaolin all though we use them on our Shaolin inspired forms, but not on Fist Set and some people don't use them in Statu(r)e of the Crane.


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## kidswarrior

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The basic movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid. We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.
> 
> Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
> Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes.


 
This is why I dumped the first two--I teach Kempo _Kung Fu_, not karate.



> _Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance._
> _Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements._
> _Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes_.


 
Kept these more fluid forms. Very helpful in learning/practicing kung fu movements.



> _We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal. I have not done them all this way, but as an example, I have done Pinan #1 as Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake and Dragon. All are a bit different in thier movements, blocks and strikes_.


 
Although I was taken to task on another thread (section) for this by someone who claims far greater _____________ (everything) than me (even though I served in SE Asia before he was in kindergarten :hammer: ), I like this idea. Forces some heavy duty critical thinking and corresponding movements.


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## RevIV

kidswarrior said:


> This is why I dumped the first two--I teach Kempo _Kung Fu_, not karate
> 
> It's funny, because i dumped the last 3 for the same reason you dumped the first 2.  Except i do not teach Kung Fu to the extent of a kung fu school.  ALthough i have many Wu Shu forms and Kung Fu forms- both northern and southern styles.  But,,,,  3,4,and 5 pinon are truly shotokan forms.  They have been bastardized down to what we see today but they are shotokan.  so any Kung Fu or fluid movements that are in the forms were put there by Kempo people and changed to make it fit their needs.  One thing on the internet is you cannot tell my tone of voice.  I am not attacking here just stating facts and my feelings on them.  I kept 1 pinon for its later uses past black belt. and 2 pinon out of respect for Prof. Cerio because he created it.  (plus some good drills in that form)
> In Peace
> Jesse


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## kidswarrior

RevIV said:


> kidswarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is why I dumped the first two--I teach Kempo _Kung Fu_, not karate
> 
> It's funny, because i dumped the last 3 for the same reason you dumped the first 2. Except i do not teach Kung Fu to the extent of a kung fu school. ALthough i have many Wu Shu forms and Kung Fu forms- both northern and southern styles. But,,,, 3,4,and 5 pinon are truly shotokan forms. They have been bastardized down to what we see today but they are shotokan. so any Kung Fu or fluid movements that are in the forms were put there by Kempo people and changed to make it fit their needs. One thing on the internet is you cannot tell my tone of voice. I am not attacking here just stating facts and my feelings on them. I kept 1 pinon for its later uses past black belt. and 2 pinon out of respect for Prof. Cerio because he created it. (plus some good drills in that form)
> In Peace
> Jesse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That _is_ funny--literally. And I would not have mistaken your post for an attack--it's vey calm and respectful. I made the change not from a knowledge of the history of the forms, but based on intuitive sense of what fit in my system. I guess now I have to call it Shaolin Kempo Shotokan Karate Kung Fu? :boing2: Also, my (Shaolin) background is ussd, so not sure what changes they may have made to the original numbered forms. Thanks for teaching me something!
> 
> ~kidswarrior
Click to expand...


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## Joe Shuras

CTKempo Todd said:


> Cool. I hope you are successful.
> The more I think about it...Cup and Saucer is a very visual thing and people can 'see' what a cup and saucer look like in their mind. Good luck and can't wait to hear what you find out. (I want a prize if I am right though LOL (..and not a 'cup and saucer' ;-) )


 
When I switched to SKK under Craig Seavey in 1974, he was a black belt who studied under Mitch Harding and Art Singer (all belted by Gm. Villari). Craig took his black belt test in Dedham, Ma. directly under Fred Villari and "cup & saucer" was the term used then to describe the side to side cover when we were taught #1 Kata, it was called nothing else right up until I left the organization in '81 - Joe


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## SK101

kidswarrior said:


> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> Shotokan Karate Kung Fu? :boing2: Also, my (Shaolin) background is ussd, so not sure what changes they may have made to the original numbered forms. Thanks for teaching me something!
> 
> ~kidswarrior
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am also previous USSD. The forms are almost identicle to what Villari has on his videos. There is as much variation from 1 USSD to another as there is from Villari to USSD.
> 
> Shaolin Kempo is really a simplistic term, if you write out all the Shaolin and Karate systems that are present then you come up with some really long confusing name. The name in my oppinion is a very good one for describing a system that starts with primarily Kempo Karate and then has a large chinese influence on it.
> 
> Just going back to the Kajukenbo influence your talking about 5 distinct systems - Judo, Jujitsu, Karate(Tang Soo Do), 5 Animal Sil lum Gung Fu, & Kenpo.
Click to expand...


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## Gufbal1982

SK101 said:


> Try B with this variation - Your opponent has one leg forward and one back such as a half moon. Side blade kick goes to the knee while back fist goes to the forward temple. Works nice off a single lapel grab. Opponent grabs with right hand. You step back with left into side horse stance simultaneously grab opponents right wrist with your left hand. Right hammer strike to Bicep to numb the arm followed by back fist and side blade kick.



I agree here.  It's more practical.


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## MeatWad2

SK101 said:


> kidswarrior said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am also previous USSD. The forms are almost identicle to what Villari has on his videos. There is as much variation from 1 USSD to another as there is from Villari to USSD.
> 
> Shaolin Kempo is really a simplistic term, if you write out all the Shaolin and Karate systems that are present then you come up with some really long confusing name. The name in my oppinion is a very good one for describing a system that starts with primarily Kempo Karate and then has a large chinese influence on it.
> 
> Just going back to the Kajukenbo influence your talking about 5 distinct systems - Judo, Jujitsu, Karate(Tang Soo Do), 5 Animal Sil lum Gung Fu, & Kenpo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SK101, Did you run a school for ussd?
Click to expand...


----------



## SK101

Yes, I used to teach for United.


----------



## KempoGuy06

i like the pinans. at my dojo we do not use individual parts of the forms in drills. I however have learned that i can adapt them and use them in sparring. 

like 14k said 1 pinan is very tiger, staight in. it teaches you to move in and strike at the same time very helpful when just starting to spar. 2 pinan adds the rising and falling, multiple strikes to multiple targets, stiking from blocks. again all very useful in sparring as you advance.

I havent seen enough of the art or been doing it for very long to make a decision about editing some or removing some of the forms

B


----------



## punisher73

Prof. Cerio did not create Pinan 1 and it isn't really based on Shotokan's Heian Shodan.  SKK's Pinan 1 is actually Taikyoku Shodan from Shotokan.  

Here is a video clip of it:





 
Here is a video clip of Heian Shodan from Shotokan





 
It's interesting, in other styles that use the Pinan forms Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan, Gichin switched the order of these two because the 2nd one was acutally easier to learn.  The Taikyoku was based on Pinan Nidan/Heian Shodan and was created as a beginner's kata.

Many of you have touched on the lack of applications (bunkai) with this.  The reason is that the original applications were NOT a defense against "karate style" attacks.  They were used against an aggressive untrained person grabbing/punching etc.  If you look at Iain Abernethy's work he goes towards ALOT of putting that information back in the katas.  Here is an interesting article about the Pinan/Heian series as it relates to a complete fighting system.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp

It is an interesting read and shows the progression of distance and types of attacks.

As far as emphasizing or not emphasizing these forms as "Shaolin Kempo" is not Shotokan.  That is partially true, Okinawan Kempo does use the Pinans they are not just a "Shotokan kata".  So by including the name of "kempo" in it, you are calling attention to it's okinawan roots along with it's Chinese roots.


----------



## JTKenpo

punisher73 said:


> Many of you have touched on the lack of applications (bunkai) with this. The reason is that the original applications were NOT a defense against "karate style" attacks. They were used against an aggressive untrained person grabbing/punching etc. .


 
I don't think that the applications aren't there they just tend to get lost in the "secrets" club.  if you aren't such and such a rank then you couldn't possibly understand what that form is teaching us.


----------



## RevIV

Punisher - I do not think that anyone said Prof. Cerio created 1 pinan.  I stated that he created 2 pinan.  It is interesting to note one other thing.  The origins that you state 1 pinan comes from is exactly where Matt B. says they come from.  I had Master Chun Jr. at my school a few months ago and he said that his father created 1 pinan and that we should all know that.  Thank you again for the links you posted.


----------



## Hand Sword

It is all in the movements as everyone finds. I think it's great to read too. However, I can't help but wonder if its all just over analyzing.


----------



## punisher73

RevIV said:


> Punisher - I do not think that anyone said Prof. Cerio created 1 pinan. I stated that he created 2 pinan. It is interesting to note one other thing. The origins that you state 1 pinan comes from is exactly where Matt B. says they come from. I had Master Chun Jr. at my school a few months ago and he said that his father created 1 pinan and that we should all know that. Thank you again for the links you posted.


 
I realize no one in this thread stated that Cerio created the first pinan,  I have read other accounts on other places that made it sound like Prof. Cerio took pieces and parts of the pinans and created the first as well.  It is sometimes phrased that Cerio reworked Heian Shodan to make Pinan 1.  I was just trying to point out that there was no reworking on that one, although he did with the others, and I don't mean to take away from the accomplishments and contributions he did make.  Just trying to clear it up historically in that case.

I might be misreading what you wrote.  Are you saying that Bill Chun Sr. is credited with the creation of Pinan 1, and it is not Taikyoku Shodan?  If I did misread that I apologize.


----------



## youngbraveheart

punisher73 said:


> Prof. Cerio did not create Pinan 1 and it isn't really based on Shotokan's Heian Shodan. SKK's Pinan 1 is actually Taikyoku Shodan from Shotokan.
> 
> Here is a video clip of it:


 

Our Basic 1 form looks very similar to Taikyoku Shodan...


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> I had Master Chun Jr. at my school a few months ago and he said that his father created 1 pinan and that we should all know that. Thank you again for the links you posted.


 

????!!!!


----------



## RevIV

punisher73 said:


> I realize no one in this thread stated that Cerio created the first pinan, I have read other accounts on other places that made it sound like Prof. Cerio took pieces and parts of the pinans and created the first as well. It is sometimes phrased that Cerio reworked Heian Shodan to make Pinan 1. I was just trying to point out that there was no reworking on that one, although he did with the others, and I don't mean to take away from the accomplishments and contributions he did make. Just trying to clear it up historically in that case.
> 
> I might be misreading what you wrote. Are you saying that Bill Chun Sr. is credited with the creation of Pinan 1, and it is not Taikyoku Shodan? If I did misread that I apologize.


 
on the first part, my apologies, I was the one who stated that he created 2 pinan in this thread and thought he misread that.
2nd part - As youngbraveheart stated (who is a student of Master Chun Jr) - Yes Master Chun Jr. said that his father created the 1 pinan that we do and it was taught to Prof. Cerio by GM Chun. Sr.


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> on the first part, my apologies, I was the one who stated that he created 2 pinan in this thread and thought he misread that.
> 2nd part - As youngbraveheart stated (who is a student of Master Chun Jr) - Yes Master Chun Jr. said that his father created the 1 pinan that we do and it was taught to Prof. Cerio by GM Chun. Sr.


 

????  um I have always appreciated Master Chun Jr's teachings and have attended his seminars when he is on the east coast but Takyuko son ichi far predates Master Chun Sr. and the only difference is 1 pinan uses a half moon stance while takyuko son ichi uses a forward stance........so I'm with Marlon on this.....huh????  Now that isn't to say that maybe Master Chun Sr was the one who taught it to prof cerio, but to say he created it???...


----------



## punisher73

RevIV said:


> on the first part, my apologies, I was the one who stated that he created 2 pinan in this thread and thought he misread that.
> 2nd part - As youngbraveheart stated (who is a student of Master Chun Jr) - Yes Master Chun Jr. said that his father created the 1 pinan that we do and it was taught to Prof. Cerio by GM Chun. Sr.


 
No worries on that, you were just clarifying in case I had misread it.

That's odd that Master Chun states that, but it also demonstrates that some of the katas are clouded when it comes to their actual history and where they came from.  

I think that it was probably assumed that before the advent of the internet and everyone having exposure to all the other arts etc.  Master Chun Sr. probably did learn it somewhere and taught it and never said where he learned it from so it was assumed by others that he created it (not sure if this is what happened, but I have seen it in other cases)


----------



## RevIV

punisher73 said:


> No worries on that, you were just clarifying in case I had misread it.
> 
> That's odd that Master Chun states that, but it also demonstrates that some of the katas are clouded when it comes to their actual history and where they came from.
> 
> I think that it was probably assumed that before the advent of the internet and everyone having exposure to all the other arts etc. Master Chun Sr. probably did learn it somewhere and taught it and never said where he learned it from so it was assumed by others that he created it (not sure if this is what happened, but I have seen it in other cases)


 
I will have to agree with this statement.  Now if myself and students misheard what he said I will be the first to make an open apology on that.  If what he meant was that he was that Prof. Cerio learned it from his father and people should know that,, then that is fine too.  I am sure these comments are already being discussed over the phone and I will be getting a call.


----------



## marlon

of note, it is completely possible that GM Pesare's tkd background would have provided him with the taikyu form.  His non kempo background is how Statue of the Crane came into our system, afterall

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## youngbraveheart

Here's my one cent about the comments regarding forms...

If anything, Grandmaster Chun Sr. was a genius to make modifications to traditional methods of blocking and striking so our (Chow/Chun Method) blocks (and strikes) are simple yet more effective than anything traditional.  All of the Chow/Chun Method's forms reflect his modification of basic movements, blocking, and striking. We are definitely different than other Kenpo/Kempo styles.

I don't know the history of all of the Chow/Chun Method's forms, but I'm sure a conversation with Master Chun will clear up any of your questions or concerns about who created what.


----------



## youngbraveheart

In my initial post, I neglected to mention that the Chow/Chun Method's Pinan 1 is different than SKK's Pinan 1.  On the other hand, I would venture to say that our Basic 1 form is basically Taikyoku Shodan with Grandmaster Chun Sr.'s modifications.


----------



## punisher73

youngbraveheart said:


> In my initial post, I neglected to mention that the Chow/Chun Method's Pinan 1 is different than SKK's Pinan 1. On the other hand, I would venture to say that our Basic 1 form is basically Taikyoku Shodan with Grandmaster Chun Sr.'s modifications.


 
I am always interested in learning more about Chow's methods, but have only seen a couple of clips with Chow in motion and Master Chun Jr. performing some techs.

Would you mind sharing what the modifications are concerning your Basic 1 form that make it distinct?  I really am interested in learning more about GoshinJitsu Kai Chinese Kempo.


----------



## bill007

youngbraveheart said:


> In my initial post, I neglected to mention that the Chow/Chun Method's Pinan 1 is different than SKK's Pinan 1. On the other hand, I would venture to say that our Basic 1 form is basically Taikyoku Shodan with Grandmaster Chun Sr.'s modifications.


 
Hi Johnny,

I have learned Basic 1 from Master Chun Jr. when I was with the Quebec group 2 years ago and from what I remember the difference is the C block and the last part of the form with the cat stances guard.

Dominic


----------



## RevIV

youngbraveheart said:


> In my initial post, I neglected to mention that the Chow/Chun Method's Pinan 1 is different than SKK's Pinan 1. On the other hand, I would venture to say that our Basic 1 form is basically Taikyoku Shodan with Grandmaster Chun Sr.'s modifications.


 
Yes your basic 1 is similiar to our 1 pinan.  your 1 pinan is similiar to Heian Shodan.
Marlon -  As far as I know SGM Pesare did not teach Prof. Cerio 1 pinan.  Over the summer SGM Pesare taught me Drill 1, which was similiar to 1 pinan (SKK way) but the turns were different and it kindof went in the opposite direction.  No big turn after 3 punches or even 180 degree backward turns.


----------



## youngbraveheart

punisher73 said:


> I am always interested in learning more about Chow's methods, but have only seen a couple of clips with Chow in motion and Master Chun Jr. performing some techs.
> 
> Would you mind sharing what the modifications are concerning your Basic 1 form that make it distinct? I really am interested in learning more about GoshinJitsu Kai Chinese Kempo.


 
Without being disrespectful to Great Grandmaster ("Professor") Chow's influence, all I have to say is that I think GM Chun Sr's ingenuity includes implimenting short tension snaps to our blocks and strikes, which appears to make us different.  Our blocks become strikes (my arms don't bruise that easy anymore LOL...). Also, without going into any particular details, we are required to show real "meaning" in our forms as if we were making real blocks and strikes and not just going through the motions... (I understand that you might not even understand what I'm saying without someone demonstrating live and in person.)

I love it when Master Chun shows us how Great GM Chow would do a particular technique, how GM Chun Sr would do the same technique differently, and how he himself would do it differently.  It's hard to try to tell you or share with you about what we do versus what another style does.  If you really want to learn more, you can go to www.chinesekempo.org. Perhaps one day we might include our forms on there...


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Yes your basic 1 is similiar to our 1 pinan. your 1 pinan is similiar to Heian Shodan.
> Marlon - As far as I know SGM Pesare did not teach Prof. Cerio 1 pinan. Over the summer SGM Pesare taught me Drill 1, which was similiar to 1 pinan (SKK way) but the turns were different and it kindof went in the opposite direction. No big turn after 3 punches or even 180 degree backward turns.


 
Thanks master Dwire. Actually,now that i think about it, didn't Prof. Cerio get his Okinawan stuff originally from Kyokushin?

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## Jdokan

LawDog said:


> I originally had the same question as Mr Bishop did. Cup and Saucer is a new term for me. I will have to ask around the Kenpo community to see if anyone knows the answer.


 
As cup and saucer it was to indicate which hand was open (the bottom was the saucer)....the inverse of the hand position was called covered fist, and of course the third position was fist over fist....fwiw


----------



## youngbraveheart

bill007 said:


> Hi Johnny,
> 
> I have learned Basic 1 from Master Chun Jr. when I was with the Quebec group 2 years ago and from what I remember the difference is the C block and the last part of the form with the cat stances guard.
> 
> Dominic




Hello Dominic! (sorry I skipped over your post)

Are you no longer with  the Quebec Group? If not, where are you training? 

What about the right back handed closed fist strike near the beginning and the upper blocks right after that? Yes Dominic, that is essentially the differences...

Hope you are well...Johnny


----------



## bill007

youngbraveheart said:


> Hello Dominic! (sorry I skipped over your post)
> 
> Are you no longer with the Quebec Group? If not, where are you training?
> 
> What about the right back handed closed fist strike near the beginning and the upper blocks right after that? Yes Dominic, that is essentially the differences...
> 
> Hope you are well...Johnny


 
I'm training with Marlon Wilson, I think I need a little refresh of the basic 1 if Master Chun come back on the east coast i'm gonna try to go.

Hope you are well too.


----------



## KENPOJOE

IWishToLearn said:


> Coming from a japanese influenced background in the MA, I find I use analogies from my previous forms to provide additional alternate applications and variations to my Kenpo training and teaching.


 Hi folks!
Excellent point!
I have found by studying different kenpo/kempo arts as well as other arts that have given me valuble insights into arts I teach.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

RevIV said:


> since we were off track on another thread, I would like to start a new thread. The pinans were added to the curriculum through Prof. Cerio. They were then modified by him to fit his style of Kenpo. Then the masters after him who continued to teach modified them even more to suit their understanding of the forms. Very few of these Masters went and studied the forms in their original way and intentions. My question is - besides good concepts that could be found, how many of you are required to know techniques from the Pinans and apply them to your self-defense curriculum for rank? When testing or in class besides working the bunkai, how many of you do reaction drills using the techniques within the form and if you do which ones?
> I was busting Matt's chops in another thread because he is a good friend of mine and i know the owner of the school he works for (both were at my wedding) and Matt said he would get rid of some of them when he opens his own school some day. Who else would do the same? These are hard questions to ask people who have been doing it for a long time and like the forms. But in Kempo, how does Shotokan make us more fluid? Some of the teachers i have trained with add a lot of the shotokan forms into their requirements after black belt for further advancement? Would you think this is good or bad.
> In Peace
> Jesse


 Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
since the pinan kata were the original creation of an okinawan karate master [itosu], the closer we get to the original okinawan version of the forms offers a more chinese influenced insight that the later japanese versions of the forms. Over the last several years, many new england based kenpo practitioners [especially those formerly from Prof. Cerio's lineage] have incorporated more of the shotokan kata. Prof. Cerio's system became "more japanese" every day. That was his viable choice to take his system in that direction. I don't agree with that particular track,but I don't do NCK. I have found that looking at the okinawan and chinese arts have given me greater insights into the kenpo/kempo arts.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, I have seen the Shotokan Heian series. The basic movements are very similar, but in my SKK style they are much softer and more fluid. We have incorporated the animals into the pinans as well.
> 
> Pinan #1 [Tiger], very karate-like, straight forward, powerful, always pressing.
> Pinan #2 [Dragon], still very karate-like, added in the rising and falling into the blocks and strikes.
> Pinan #3 [Crane], becomes softer and more fluid in its movements. Striking from a distance.
> Pinan #4 [Leopard], very fluid, striking from a distance, minimized movements.
> Pinan #5 [Snake], low stances, drawing the opponent into very fast, accurate strikes.
> 
> We are also asked on occasion to do the form as a different animal. I have not done them all this way, but as an example, I have done Pinan #1 as Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake and Dragon. All are a bit different in thier movements, blocks and strikes.


 Hi folks!
Dear 14kempo,
The application of using the shaolin 5 animal format in regards is definitely a later innovation from SKK and was not taught in the earlier kenpo/kempo systems to my knowledge. I like the concept but would use them more in keeping with the original aspects mentioned in shaolin texts
tiger=ferocity and strength/isometric action
leopard=speed and multiple strikes 
crane=poise,balance and slow motion/muscle control
snake=flowing motion,continuity of action, darting [snapping] strikes
Dragon=internal strength w/ a combination of the above animal aspects

Here's another way you can approach the pinans with animal actions: simply perform the tiger version with exclusively tiger claw hands,leopard with leopard paw hands,etc...
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

LawDog said:


> I was first taught the pinon's in 1970. We did both the air and application versions. When the pinon techniques were applied against an opponent they had to be modified. First of all half mooning is not a linear motion. When you shift your weight onto the supporting leg a minor side shift occurs. When this happens your /12:00/ center line changes. Pivoting to the side or rear is also causes a lateral action. Minor adjustments to the blocking or striking angles had to be made. In many of the pinons there is a pivot to the side with a downward block followed by a cross step with a front punch. Again range problems combined with the laterial action caused many problems during application. There were many varied explainations for this technique. In some of the pinons hand strikes followed a kick, when stepping down from the kick you were outside of the hand strikes power curve. Another pinon had large circular blocks that were applied with a cross step. Again the resulting range was improper for the following strikes. Again this is what happened with the 1970's version.
> Because of these and other reasons I dropped the pinons along time ago. I now only use old pinon #1 & #2 to teach proper breathing with continuous motion. These are not rank required forms.


 Hi folks!
Dear Prof. Cunningham,
I was not aware that you no longer taught the pinans! I did want to ask you regarding the circular block /cross step pattern comment. I presume you are refering to 4 pinan? I've like to get your reason and rationale on why you conisder the range improper with regards to the strikes taught as well. 
Thank you for your time,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

fnorfurfoot said:


> My old instructor dropped 1 and 2 pinion a long time ago. He felt that they were useless forms. Personally, I teach them to my students more as a way of teaching half-mooning and doing something with your hands while half-mooning. Over the years I have also come to learn how to pronounce them properly as Pinans and not Pinions.


 Hi folks!
Dear Furfoot,
I agree with you regarding why you teach 1 & 2 pinan! As Prof Cunningham mentioned as well, the use of co-ordinating proper breathing with the physical action,Halfmooning to different directions,using a transitional cat stance as well as various hand strikes [BTW,Kenpo History: After returning from Hawaii and training with Prof. Chow,Prof.Cerio returns to RI,realizing that what he had learned in New England was so different from what he had learned recently From Prof.Chow. to incorporate what he had learned, he placed the actions that he had learned [vertical punch to the groin,Front two knuckle punches into rolling cross hammerfists to the  groin,upward blocks with both front and rear arms w/ spear hand strikes to the throat and groin, as well as the other actions that were confirmed from his previous training,notably the  back 2 knuckle punch & the corkscrew punch [outward block into snapping F2K.]
So, to delete those original "taikyoku" kata that were renamed pinan is to lose some of our legacy to Prof. Cerio & Prof. Chow.
I hoipe that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

kosho said:


> 1 pinion teaches basic movement. then when you look deeper it teaches you throwing arts, controlling arts, escaping arts. all from the same movements...Think about it and take a look at it.
> Tell your students to try and find what i am talking about... its all there...
> Unless you are stuck in a box
> Kosho
> 
> all katas have them also.... just look deeper...


:ultracool


----------



## RevIV

Prof. Rebelo,
Thanks for the posts.  I def. uderstand some of the things that you are talking about.  It almost seems like some of the people went backwards though from what was taught in Hawaii.
Through the few seminars and talks I have been able to have with Master Chun, Jr. (all of which I learned a ton)  It seemed that the hard Pinans and tesion were taught earlier on (KeNpo)  and later turned into the softer Kempo forms (KeMpo)  But here on the East Coast we kindof jump around and then after Black Belt like I stated before we learn some real fluid stuff then it goes back to the hard.  To much change and not enough people understanding why in my opinion (or change just to have more material).  Time for the drawing board for me.


----------



## KENPOJOE

RevIV said:


> Kosho,
> for the exact reason you have stated is why i still teach 1 pinan and i kept 2 because it was a creation by Prof. Cerio and i use some techniques from it in my curriculum. But like others I have discarded 3,4,5 from the rank requirements. They are not supposed to by soft and circular from their origins, they just became that way. Lawdog i guess you and i are more on the same wave length for those. Have a great evening.
> In Peace
> Jesse
> (i am trying to take the parts of the forms that did make sense and put them together in a combined form that helps my students keep some of the old)


 Hi folks,
I remember Jesse and I having a coversation about one of the applications in one of the pinans [5?] and detailing out some it because we are stuck in a mindset of certasian motions "only being a ____ {place block,punch,strike,kick in blank space}. Its when we open our minds to to new and/or varied application of a given action that we gain insight/understanding.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## 14 Kempo

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear 14kempo,
> The application of using the shaolin 5 animal format in regards is definitely a later innovation from SKK and was not taught in the earlier kenpo/kempo systems to my knowledge. I like the concept but would use them more in keeping with the original aspects mentioned in shaolin texts
> tiger=ferocity and strength/isometric action
> leopard=speed and multiple strikes
> crane=poise,balance and slow motion/muscle control
> snake=flowing motion,continuity of action, darting [snapping] strikes
> Dragon=internal strength w/ a combination of the above animal aspects
> 
> Here's another way you can approach the pinans with animal actions: simply perform the tiger version with exclusively tiger claw hands,leopard with leopard paw hands,etc...
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


 
Boy, talk about pulling one out of the woodwork ... LOL ... this was almost two years old. Thanks for your comments, sir, I like the idea of doing the pinans with strikes that are of the 5 animals. I am no longer with the organization that did them as the 5 animals and have a much more open-minded look at what is being accomplished with the pinans. Yes, we still teach the pinans and katas of SKK, but they are not the focus, but rather a way of working stances, transitions and proper body movement. I now study a kempo style that is more influenced by Chinese arts rather than what I considered a very Japanese oriented Kempo out here on the Left Coast.


----------



## RevIV

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks,
> I remember Jesse and I having a coversation about one of the applications in one of the pinans [5?] and detailing out some it because we are stuck in a mindset of certasian motions "only being a ____ {place block,punch,strike,kick in blank space}. Its when we open our minds to to new and/or varied application of a given action that we gain insight/understanding.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
That was 5, and it was a great lesson thank you.  It was a break down after the crescent kick / elbow move, up to the leap.  even though you helped open my mind on it,, I still had to discard.


----------



## KENPOJOE

CTKempo Todd said:


> Speaking of 1 Kata...
> 
> Interested in hearing how you all end the form.
> 
> Do you:
> a) backfist with a medium to high side kick
> b) Backfist with a low side blade kick
> c) Perform a (number 1 or 2 in 8pt blocking speak) Block to the side and side kick (does not matter the height in this instance)
> 
> I was originally taught 'a' however it can't physically be done unless your arms are as long as your legs..I teach method 'c' because to me it feels the most practical.
> 
> I remember a conversation that it was taught as method 'b' but as people started performing 1 Kata in tournaments, the kicks got higher and hten it became the way it was taught.


Hi folks!
Dear Todd,
When we look at the evolution of that form's movements and it's application we see different techniques...
George Pesare teaches it as a low side kick to opponent's knee to break the leg and drive said opponet to the ground.
Prof. Chow taught to execute a low side kick [either heel to the knee directly or side blade kick [an okinawan influence] above the knee to the insertion point of the quadricep to tear the connective tissue to the knee {ask Paul Levesque/Triple H of WWE fame what it's like to have your quad detatch dfrom the insertion point on the bone and have the torm muscsle fire up your leg!} as you excute the backfist to opponent's temple as they bend over, having no "lateral structural integrity" [BTW, the backfist also acts as a defensive action to stop the forward momnetum of your opponent's head to cause a possible unintentional headbutt]
You can use a side blade kick to the bladder area [as kosho eluded to in his mention of the "folds of the body" that cause the body to fold forward within range of the afore mentioned backfist/back knuckle
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> ""c" seems to me, might be my capability and flexibility, that if I was close enough to use a #1 or #2 block, which is against a punch, I would be to close to deliver an effective side kick.
> 
> Just my 2 cents ...


 
try kicking them in the rear knee. I like this take off a single lapel rt hand grab. Step back with left leg to off balance the opponent. Pin arm with your left as you hammer their then rt bk fst to right temple and left side kick to knee.


----------



## KENPOJOE

punisher73 said:


> Prof. Cerio did not create Pinan 1 and it isn't really based on Shotokan's Heian Shodan. SKK's Pinan 1 is actually Taikyoku Shodan from Shotokan.
> 
> Here is a video clip of it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a video clip of Heian Shodan from Shotokan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's interesting, in other styles that use the Pinan forms Heian Shodan is actually Pinan Nidan, Gichin switched the order of these two because the 2nd one was acutally easier to learn. The Taikyoku was based on Pinan Nidan/Heian Shodan and was created as a beginner's kata.
> 
> Many of you have touched on the lack of applications (bunkai) with this. The reason is that the original applications were NOT a defense against "karate style" attacks. They were used against an aggressive untrained person grabbing/punching etc. If you look at Iain Abernethy's work he goes towards ALOT of putting that information back in the katas. Here is an interesting article about the Pinan/Heian series as it relates to a complete fighting system.
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/Pinan1.asp
> 
> It is an interesting read and shows the progression of distance and types of attacks.
> 
> As far as emphasizing or not emphasizing these forms as "Shaolin Kempo" is not Shotokan. That is partially true, Okinawan Kempo does use the Pinans they are not just a "Shotokan kata". So by including the name of "kempo" in it, you are calling attention to it's okinawan roots along with it's Chinese roots.


 Hi folks!
good post! I explained some of prof chow's influences on prof cerio and his version of the pinan kats.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE

RevIV said:


> Punisher - I do not think that anyone said Prof. Cerio created 1 pinan. I stated that he created 2 pinan. It is interesting to note one other thing. The origins that you state 1 pinan comes from is exactly where Matt B. says they come from. I had Master Chun Jr. at my school a few months ago and he said that his father created 1 pinan and that we should all know that. Thank you again for the links you posted.


 Hi folks!
Dear Jesse,
It should be noted that the "pinan 1" that Prof.Chun teaches is not the taikyoku based kata taught by Prof. Cerio nor it it the Japanese kata taught on shotokan. I know this because Bill Chiun went over his version of Pinan 1 at one of his seminar appearences in new england. 
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## RevIV

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Jesse,
> It should be noted that the "pinan 1" that Prof.Chun teaches is not the taikyoku based kata taught by Prof. Cerio nor it it the Japanese kata taught on shotokan. I know this because Bill Chiun went over his version of Pinan 1 at one of his seminar appearences in new england.
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


 
I hope you read a little further wher this was all cleared up.  His Basic 1 is similiar to our 1 pinan.  and The Chow/Chun 1 pinan bore a resemblence to Shotokan.  Master Chun's 2 pinan is very similiar to our Heien Nidan (from Shotokan)  there are a few differences Like we do a Side kick/ back fist and he does a Back kick/ reverse hammer at the same time


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## John James

Dear Kenpo/Kempo Brothers and Sisters,

I hope all is well with you and I hope that everyone had a wonderful Holiday Season. Since this post involves both Grandmaster Professor Bill Chun, Sr. and Professor Cerio, Ive been asked by Master Bill Chun, Jr. to post his reply to this thread and then I, in turn, will respond to how it pertains to Professor Cerio, Nick Cerios Kenpo, and the Shaolin Kempo Karate lineage from GM Fred Villari. 

First, Master Bill Chun, Jr.s reply:

_Professor Chun, Sr. created the Basic Forms to prepare the students to learn the H or I formations. Since we all should know, when a beginner completes this formation, then with promotion to the Kata of original background of either the Shotokan or Okinawan. But Karate is the simple way to put it or as some come to know it as KARATE - DO, and the correct Kata name from this is called HEIAN 1 (one). And of course it goes on. But when it became a Kenpo/Kempo Kata or Form, this is when the transaction or changes began when others completely changed and/or added to make it theirs. Professor Chun, Sr. simply modified the Pinans by using more snaps and center strikes. The Japanese moves are wide, short and jerky and the Chinese has more strikes with continuing with flow. I never said my father created Pinan 1 (one) and I wish everyone would close their eyes when I'm specking so they can listen with their ears and not their eyes. I hope this helps and if there's any doubts about this misunderstanding...you ALL know how to contact me._

Now, please permit me to give some background on Pinan 1 as it is known in Nick Cerios Kenpo and GM. Villaris Shaolin Kempo Karate, and Basic 1 as it is known in Go Shin Jitsu Kenpo/Chinese Kempo Kai. Professor Cerio learned Basic 1 from GM Professor Bill Chun, Sr. in the mid to late 60s. At this time, 1968, Professor Cerio had started forming and evolving his system of Kenpo, which would become known as Nick Cerios Kenpo. Professor Cerio kept the Basic 1 intact, except that he changed the beginning and ending salutations, and then renamed the form Pinan 1 to serve as the foundation for his Nick Cerios Kenpo. At this time in the late 60s, GM. Villari was a student of Professor Cerio and learned Professor Cerios Pinan 1. From there, GM. Villari spread the form to his students, and they to their students, and so on. I might add that I was unaware of these facts until a somewhat embarrassing incident occurred in Februrary 2003. At this time, Master Chun, Jr. was teaching a seminar for the NCK school in Omaha, NE. During the adult seminar, Master Chun, Jr. decided to teach us GSJK/CKK Basic 1. As we readied ourselves to learn, Master Chun, Jr. started teaching Basic 1. As we went through the bottom of the I pattern, I remarked to myself that this was very similar to the NCK Pinan 1. Then when Master Chun, Jr. did three punches up the middle, I began to get a very uneasy feeling as I knew that we already had the form but under a different name. Master Chun, Jr. was quite surprised at how easily we learned Basic 1' without him having to break it up into smaller sections. As he told the students to practice the form, I had to tell him what I just found out to be true. I dont know why Professor Cerio changed the name of the form and Im not here to answer or argue that fact. I just wanted to let everyone know where your Pinan 1 comes from that is connected to, or an offshoot of, Nick Cerio's Kenpo or Shaolin Kempo Karate.

Thank you for your time and understanding in reading this post.

Sincerely,
Shihan John James,
Professor Nick Cerio student and
GSJK/CKK Representative


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## RevIV

Shihan James,
Thank you and Master Chun, Jr. for setting the record straight.  I will make sure my students from the last seminar understand the history more accurately.


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## Hand Sword

I have a silly curiosity that's in my craw-lol. I guess I'm just a very technical person, right down to the details 

On the second 1/2 of #2 pinan (up block, up block, thrust, back punches) do you:

1. After the first block, block, punch, punch,  leave the punch in place, move forward, and up block from there?

or

2. Re-chamber your hands, move forward and begin the sequence again?

or 

3. After the first sequence, circle the last punch down and up into the up block?

Was always just curious about the "proper" way to execute it. I've asked many and usually the answer is "the student's preference," or "tendencies." I always said that way back when there was the "proper" way to do the sequences. I just wanted to know what they are. So many just seem to flail away.


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## marlon

i don't know if it is "proper" but I do not re chamber rather I follow the back two knuckle strike.

Respectfullly,
Marlon


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## Yondanchris

Hand Sword said:


> I have a silly curiosity that's in my craw-lol. I guess I'm just a very technical person, right down to the details
> 
> On the second 1/2 of #2 pinan (up block, up block, thrust, back punches) do you:
> 
> 1. After the first block, block, punch, punch,  leave the punch in place, move forward, and up block from there?
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Re-chamber your hands, move forward and begin the sequence again?
> 
> or
> 
> 3. After the first sequence, circle the last punch down and up into the up block?
> 
> Was always just curious about the "proper" way to execute it. I've asked many and usually the answer is "the student's preference," or "tendencies." I always said that way back when there was the "proper" way to do the sequences. I just wanted to know what they are. So many just seem to flail away.



I teach Pinian #2 the first way mentioned,  leave the punch in place and half moon forward then blocking from the point of origin of my punching hand. 

I hope that made sense!

Chris


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## Hand Sword

Got a request to post this with blessings:

*"I was discussing the history of our forms with Professor Cerio  after a lesson back around the early 1990's. I remember we went out to grab some lunch and had an interesting discussion on this. He had told me that SGM. Pesare had originally adopted the #1 Pinan into his curriculum back around maybe 65-66. He said he assisted in putting together the form from one of Mas Oyama'a books but it was called Taikyoku Shodan. Now, remember the term 'Pinan' was originally the name of the forms of KGS that Sijo Gascon had taught SGM. Pesare.  Sometime later on, SGM. Pesare changed the name to "Kata".  I know this for fact because I had began studying with SGM. Pesare back in 1978 when I was a nidan with GM. Villari.  Back then, Mr. Pesare named the forms that had been called "Pinans" by Mr. Gascon, 'Katas", they were 1-7.  However, he still, at that time, taught the Taikyoku Shodan which he called  #1 Pinan. It was the same as Villari's except the half mooning was different, it was more of a circular pattern than a half moon. When I was studying with SGM. Pesare in the 2000's he decided to go back to the original name for the KGS forms and used 'Pinan' again and from what I could see he no longer taught the Taikyoku Shodan or what was call '#1 Pinan".  Look, this is what I was told back then and what I experienced in Rhode Island first hand when training under SGM. Pesare and Prof. Cerio -  Yours in the Arts,  Prof. Joe Shuras."*


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## RevIV

SGM Pesare does call them Pinans now -- and what we refer to as #1 pinan - he still teaches (modified - no more 180 degree turns) But calls it a line drill that students need to learn before they earn their white belt.  This is what he has told me about 2 years ago.
Jesse


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## cda1210

Hand Sword said:


> I have a silly curiosity that's in my craw-lol. I guess I'm just a very technical person, right down to the details
> 
> On the second 1/2 of #2 pinan (up block, up block, thrust, back punches) do you:
> 
> 1. After the first block, block, punch, punch, leave the punch in place, move forward, and up block from there?
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Re-chamber your hands, move forward and begin the sequence again?
> 
> or
> 
> 3. After the first sequence, circle the last punch down and up into the up block?
> 
> Was always just curious about the "proper" way to execute it. I've asked many and usually the answer is "the student's preference," or "tendencies." I always said that way back when there was the "proper" way to do the sequences. I just wanted to know what they are. So many just seem to flail away.


 
The way that you have desribed in #3, above, is the way I was taught back in the late 70's. This is the way we still teach it today.


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## Josh Oakley

I was taught version 1: go straight from the punch to the block


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## Hand Sword

Lol! Figures there would be different answers from the same family 
Anyone know how the japanese/Okinawan masters do them, since these forms are offshoots from their styles?


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## shima

The first martial arts school I studied at (karate school, not kenpo) used the pinan's as their base kata's for ranking. Then added in basai and naihanchi's for red/black belts. 

We don't do any of those forms at the kenpo school I'm studying at now. But one of the other black belts there does know the pinans from his previous studies elsewhere, so he and I practice them every once in a blue moon


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## 14 Kempo

Hand Sword said:


> I have a silly curiosity that's in my craw-lol. I guess I'm just a very technical person, right down to the details
> 
> On the second 1/2 of #2 pinan (up block, up block, thrust, back punches) do you:
> 
> 1. After the first block, block, punch, punch, leave the punch in place, move forward, and up block from there?
> 
> or
> 
> 2. Re-chamber your hands, move forward and begin the sequence again?
> 
> or
> 
> 3. After the first sequence, circle the last punch down and up into the up block?
> 
> Was always just curious about the "proper" way to execute it. I've asked many and usually the answer is "the student's preference," or "tendencies." I always said that way back when there was the "proper" way to do the sequences. I just wanted to know what they are. So many just seem to flail away.


 
OK, now I have questions. Wouldn't it depend on the application of the movement? I mean, #1 makes sense and it is the basic application that we use when teaching. However, I could ask, "why would a person chamber their hands while moving into an opponent" when it comes to #2. The answer could be that while this is a beginner form, maybe it can be assumed that it is a beginner student and they need to chamber, use bigger movement to generate power ... just a thought. #3, this could apply dependent upon what's being blocked at what level. Yet another thought could be, what if they aren't blocks, what if they are forearm or crosshand shuto strikes, followed by the thrust punch and back two knuckle. Again, it depends on the application being applied. At our school, we teach the first method of application, what we call the traditional application and it is taught that way to all students. We do, however, vary that application later after the student has practiced and understands the traditional application. Just a bit different thought, I suppose.


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## MartialMellow

I have heard of katas before I joined *American Schools of Shao-lin Kempo *a few months ago, but until then I have never heard of a pinion (spelling?), so what is the difference between a pinion and a kata?


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## SK101

Pinans/Pinions and Katas are both terms for forms. They have different lineages hence the different names. There are posts for the history of the Shaolin Kempo forms. If you can't find it do a search of Joe Shuras posts. I believe he has posted at least a couple of times with detailed breakdown of their histories.


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## EddieCyrax

MartialMellow said:


> I have heard of katas before I joined *American Schools of Shao-lin Kempo *a few months ago, but until then I have never heard of a pinion (spelling?), so what is the difference between a pinion and a kata?



Based on Cerio/Villari lineage
1-pinan is generally taught at Yellow Belt.
2-pinan at Purple.

Depending on how your instructors teach and how they mix or dont mix rank classes you might not have seen or heard of these yet.


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## MartialMellow

EddieCyrax said:


> Based on Cerio/Villari lineage
> 1-pinan is generally taught at Yellow Belt.
> 2-pinan at Purple.
> 
> Depending on how your instructors teach and how they mix or dont mix rank classes you might not have seen or heard of these yet.


Thanks.  I have heard of "kata" through the years, but this is the first time I have heard of a pinan/pinion.  I just made Yellow belt last weekend and am now learning the first steps of pinion 1.


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## Gentle Fist

In NCK (Cerio's Kenpo), 1st Pinan was based on the basic block/punch form (1 Pinan) from Kushinkai Karate.  The foot print of this form resembles an "H".  2nd and 3rd Pinan were the same foot print but with different Combinations used instead of the basic block/punch combo.  In NCK there was 4th and even 5th Pinan but there were dropped from the main syllabus by Master Cerio.  I heard they were more or less competition styled forms and not so much traditional.

1st Pinan was a yellow belt form, 2nd was taught at orange, and 3rd was for purple.  The "Cat" forms followed those and resemble some of the old Heian Katas but were very much modified in the 70's and 80's.


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## punisher73

MartialMellow said:


> Thanks. I have heard of "kata" through the years, but this is the first time I have heard of a pinan/pinion. I just made Yellow belt last weekend and am now learning the first steps of pinion 1.



Most of the time in karate the forms are called "kata". In old okinawan systems the "Pinan" were a set of 5 katas taught at the beginning for a student (I hate referring to them as "beginniner kata" because they do contain the advanced lessons learned in later katas like Bassai/Kusanku).

In Hawaii, Sijo Emperado originally called his forms "Pinans" also spelled/pronounced "Pinion". Later on he changed the name of his forms to reflect Kajukenbo's roots and called them "Palamas" due to them being created in the Palama Settlement where Kajukenbo started.

This brings us to SKK. Trace it's history back and it was influenced by Kajukenbo and thus the name "Pinan" for it's early forms, these were added in by Sonny Gascon. The later forms in SKK are called "Katas" and were added by Sonny Gascon (1-4) and then 5&6 were added by George Pesare. There was a 7th one that was taught that was added into SKK called "Swift Tigers" (Circle of the Panther in Nick Cerio's lineage)

SKK Pinan One is actually from Taikyoku Shodan found in Shotokan/Kyokushin. SKK Pinan Two was a version of Taikyoku Shodan with some different blocks/punches but the same footwork and pattern on the floor brought in by Nick Cerio. SKK Pinan Sandan through Godan are more recognizable to their okinawan counter parts of Pinan/Heian 3-5 with some minor differences.  I would say that the embusen more resembles the letter "I" than an "H".

Here is a clip of Kyokushin's Taikyoku Shodan, and you can see it is the same as SKK Pinan 1


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## Hand Sword

14 Kempo said:


> OK, now I have questions. Wouldn't it depend on the application of the movement? I mean, #1 makes sense and it is the basic application that we use when teaching. However, I could ask, "why would a person chamber their hands while moving into an opponent" when it comes to #2. The answer could be that while this is a beginner form, maybe it can be assumed that it is a beginner student and they need to chamber, use bigger movement to generate power ... just a thought. #3, this could apply dependent upon what's being blocked at what level. Yet another thought could be, what if they aren't blocks, what if they are forearm or crosshand shuto strikes, followed by the thrust punch and back two knuckle. Again, it depends on the application being applied. At our school, we teach the first method of application, what we call the traditional application and it is taught that way to all students. We do, however, vary that application later after the student has practiced and understands the traditional application. Just a bit different thought, I suppose.



I have now returned to studying the source of 3,4,and 5 pinan in SKK by observing/practicing Shotokan. As for my previous question of what to do with the hands, I now have seen and done. Thanks and respect to Shotokan and to Master Abernethy for the practical and sense making Bunkai of the pinans as meant for self defence and not fighting. Extremely insightful IMHO.


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