# Kata



## MJS (Jul 10, 2003)

In looking at some of the other threads in the forum, I've heard alot of talk about kata.  Some people think that they are useless, while others think that there is something to actually be learned from them.  

A kata is a pre-set arrangement of moves put together for the student to go through.  Some kata, such as short 3 contain sd tech that are part of the regular SD curriculum.

People ask, "Why do Kata? What am I going to get out of them?  I would never fight anybody like that!"  So my question to everybody is.....Why do we do them?

If you look at George Dillman, he breaks down a kata, and shows the hidden pressure point applications that are hidden within the movements.  He is able to give more than one application for every move in the kata.  Now, while I have never trained with Dillman, I have trained with a guy that travels to a school in MA, that does PP.  He has shown me many different applications to different kata, that have really opened my eyes.  I would say to myself after, "Wow, I never realized that that move was in there!"  

Would you actually fight someone using a kata?  Well, I can only, and will only speak for myself, but I would never do that.  However, I do believe that if you break apart certain moves of the kata, you might be able to apply them to a SD situation.  

We all train for different reasons, and have different outlooks on things.  I'm interested in hearing what others have to say regarding kata!

Mike


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## Mark L (Jul 10, 2003)

I practice kata for two reasons: they teach me how to move and they get me to think.  I don't believe the pre-arranged techniques that constitute kata were intended to be a blueprint for a dynamic, violent encounter.  But the abiltiy to move efficiently in both attack and defense, from opponent to opponent is evident in the kata.  The more I practice moving (kata) the better I perform the rest of the curriculum.

Now the thinking part.  I've heard the line that the core information of a style is contained within the forms of the style, waiting to be unlocked by the diligent student under the watchful eye of his sensei.  Perhaps that is true.  I prefer to examine each movement, or series of movements, and try to figure what I can do with it in different situations.  I look for applications in multiple scenarios.  Can I use it in a 'typical' fight?  Against a weapon?  Is there a place for it on the ground?  Or if some grabs me by the shoulder or swings a bottle at my head?   Is what looks like a block really a block, or is it a strike?  To a pressure point?  Then I check them out on a body.  Sometimes I come up empty, but mostly I don't.

To me, the movements within the forms are the spark that ignites the creativity of the individual martial artist.  I'd like to think that was the intent of the originator.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 10, 2003)

Kata's, I believe, serve many purposes. Besides teaching in a flow pattern,  your basic techinques of your curriculum, it helps to improve posture, breathing, understanding, limitations, and helps facilitate self perfecting drills.  Would I do a kata in a fight,  Only if the attacks were all coming at me in the exact order/direction of that kata!!!

Do the techniques in Kata work for self defense?  Just like everything else......Given the right time and place, of course.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 10, 2003)

MJS:  Are you just trying to stir things up?  This has the potential to really get nasty.  I've been nice for a dozen or so posts...now it is time to throw-down again!

Kata practice is valuable to learn body control, mental discipline, stance & technique transition, breathing, moving meditation, and to memorize movements.  There are many other important benefits to Kata.  You can get many of these same benefits from Tai Chi.

However, Traditional Martial Artists and Kenpoists are fooling themselves if they think that Kata practice is a good fight-training method.  Kata practice cannot make you a better fighter, improve your self-defense, or make you a better technician.  ALL of the techniques in Kata can be taught separately.  Technique effectiveness and understanding can be accomplished without any Kata practice.  To maximize fighting and self-defense ability, time spent on memorizing each Kata and working on transitions form one technique to another would be better spent working the technique on a resisting partner.

Now, I've said it.  Rather than responding angrily and rehashing this tired topic on the Kenpo forum, I suggest you all visit the discussion on "How Many Kata is too Many" in the Karate Forum here on Martialtalk.  In that thread, some poor guy provoked my nasty-side by asking if his instructor was out of line by asking him to learn 80 (yes eighty!) katas.  I in turn motivated by my recent conversion to anti-Kata thnking provoked cries of "Troll! Troll!" from the Traditional Karatakas.  Personal insults and challenges motivating moderator intervention ensued and a few Karatekas left Martialtalk.  Rehash or read at 
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8352&perpage=15&pagenumber=1


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## Michael Billings (Jul 10, 2003)

OK, _You Could_ spend your time training with a partner ... but that is not always an option ... did you say 80 katas?  Whew - wait, ok now I remember, in traditional Japanese systems of karate, a "kata" is a relatively short series of movements, almost like one of Kenpo's longer techniques, with extensions.  Before someone gets offended, this is not true in all styles or systems of Karate, but what was called a kata in Kendo class, was reletively brief, comparitively.

Memorize the forms.  It is a nice way to take an encyclopedia around with you that you can train with away from home, or when you don't have a partner.  Or when you want a half hour of continuous exercise without thinking about individual technique names.  

Forms give you a context for stance transitions, angle changes, checking, covering, multiple and varied natural weapons, it teaches how to transition from one opponent to the next.  They can be practiced anarobically with dynamic tension, aerobically, using other people as actual opponents, isolating techniques, pieces of techniques, or basics.

We will have to agree to disagree here OFK.  I remember always being a fighter, but I also remember winning my 1st trophy for Kata.  I am a big guy, and never considered myself graceful ... I just had no context to even entertain that as a descriptor for how I moved.  I had come out of a very hard style system, and the flow just was not there.  It was a true rush winning 1st as a purple belt, 1980ish or so.  It helped redefine me as a martial artist, in terms of potentially how I could move.

I did the old Poison Hand Set followed by Short #2, soft and flowing, but with focus for Poison Hand (Finger Set 1 with a few variations), then did Short #2 very hard and focused.  I could not relax to save my life in front of a real opponent.  The adrenaline flowed and the muscles got pumped.  Forms assisted me in learning the tension relaxation necessary to execute our techniques as Mr. Parker taught.

Oss


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## kkbb (Jul 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Kata practice is valuable to learn body control, mental discipline, stance & technique transition, breathing, moving meditation, and to memorize movements.  *


Don't forget Cardio! I agree 100% 


> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> * However, Traditional Martial Artists and Kenpoists are fooling themselves if they think that Kata practice is a good fight-training method.  Kata practice cannot make you a better fighter, improve your self-defense, or make you a better technician.  ALL of the techniques in Kata can be taught separately.  Technique effectiveness and understanding can be accomplished without any Kata practice.  To maximize fighting and self-defense ability, time spent on memorizing each Kata and working on transitions form one technique to another would be better spent working the technique on a resisting partner.*



I agree here to.  I DON'T think everybody in the MA community realises that Kenpo practioners are taught the bunkai to most of their forms before they are taught the forms.  I do know in most other systems it is reversed.  Therefore when a non-kenpoist sees the bunkai for the first of many times they are suprised to find so much info in the form.  As expected, they will of course find great knowledge in these forms or kata.  

The problem I have with the kenpo forms is the transitions are not always true to the technique.  Having to do these forms with these transitions can be counter productive.  Practising the techniques individually in the air to 12:00 o'clock (or any time with no transitions) can be just as productive if not more productive. 

Using this method of practice, I find myself not wanting to travel to a different time to execute and finish a technique.  Then working on partners also improves.  Again I am not looking to execute the technique at the wrong "time".

I have noticed some of these problems in my students & myself from time to time.  They do well at the Kata but ask them to execute at another direction and they hesitate.  And vise versa...   

And let the flack begin!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 10, 2003)

Wow:  the people on the Kenpo forum are so much more civilized than the people on the Karate forum.  Then again, my post here wasn't as flagrantly antagonistic either...


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## MJS (Jul 10, 2003)

Stir things up OFK??  Me?? Now, I don't do that, do I?? LOL, LOL, LOL!

Alot of excellent posts!!  True, we could do kata with a partner to get a better idea of the movements, but do you really want to spend that much time trying to position all of the opps. that you're gonna need just to do this?  I have done it before, and I wasnt crazy about it.  Just my opinion and my exp.  I'd rather take an indivdual move from the kata, and do that against an opp, that was giving me a little more resistance.

I do agree with the whole movement theory.  It does teach you how to move from one direction to another, how to block while moving, etc.  Just look at Parkers Infinate Insights books, where he is explaining all of the moves in some of the katas.  

MJS


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## progressivetactics (Jul 10, 2003)

Just to throw my 2cents in, again... Kata I think help disguise repetition.  Repitition that people may not whole heartedly complete, if it was always 2 person self perfecting drills. Kata is a way of continually putting together combinations (whether practical or not) to flow, move, create and live your techniques.  Just my opinion.  Not that I disagree with previous posts.

Also, just a side note about 80 katas.  I don't know if that was all hard fist katas of a traditional ryu-wa, or combination from one instructor, but if you think about systems that incorporate Iaido into their curricuulum,  There is only 4 motions in each sword form.  The forms vary by the different draws, cuts, bloodshakes, and returns.  I had to learn 10 iaido kata and do 6 months of saiza postures before I could test the first time.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 11, 2003)

I know this is the kenpo area but remember in some styles the kata are for two people. They where developed with the idea of 2 people doing them togeather so that an opponet was in front of you thowing a punch or kick and you did block and counter to a person .

Are kata helpful -  yes, for the reasons people have alrady stated.

Where they designed to teach selfdefence moves -  some where, some where just made to teach people to kick or punch, some are made strickly or show

They are a useful tool in teaching and practicing. A peson away fom his instuctors may use them to keep his moves correct. 

Are they useful in a fight _ not as a total kata but if you take they individual moves and use them for defence -sure

Do the substitute for actual sparing, fighting, combat _ no-but you dont get killed or hospitalised if you goof


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## LoneWolfandCub (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *I know this is the kenpo area but remember in some styles the kata are for two people. They where developed with the idea of 2 people doing them togeather so that an opponet was in front of you thowing a punch or kick and you did block and counter to a person .
> *



EPAK has 2 man set designed for two people so kenpo is familiar with forms designed for 2 people, the kenpo forms can be practiced this way also with an attacker, one of my instuctor taught most the forms with a physical attack coming at you while you perform the form from short 1 up to and past long 4. When you are performing these expressions of basics you should be able to visualize the attack and the self defence applications at some point and time.

:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 11, 2003)

First, a statement: throw out the forms, throw out the system.

Second, one smaller point: the issue of the transitions in the forms was raised; specirfically, there was a comment that the transitions sometimes are not "true," to the techniques. 

I'd argue that everything in kenpo--every single thing--has a fighting application. It seems to me that what you want to look for isn't just the applications of the techniques in the forms, as though the techs were presented one by one and in isolation, but the uses of each move in context.

Look, for example, at what Short 3 teaches about Twirling Wings by laying the technique out on, "exploded," form, like certain schematic drawings. Or look at what the transitions from "right" to "left," sides of the techniques in Long 4 have to say about continuing to control an opponent, or about employing those contact manipulations/ "chin na," moves/grappling methods of which kenpo supposedly has none.

I won't mention this again, so as not to re-start the same old same old--but I stand behind my previous remarks about too darn much quickly-learned "efficiency," when I read this thread.

Thanks.


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## tonbo (Jul 11, 2003)

Kata has, in my opinion, plenty of uses.  However, combat isn't one of them.

Yes, you may use elements of the kata in an actual situation, but, for the most part, real fights are more dynamic and cannot ever be "scripted".

Kata is designed to teach certain things about your style, and those things may differ from style to style.  I believe that they have a good amount of value and should be kept, but, if they don't work for a particular style, then I don't see any reason that style can't drop them.

Aside from the fact that kata is part of my required curriculum, I practice kata to continually teach myself/remember what kinds of things flow together to make effective attacks.  I also use kata for meditative purposes, for working on variation of speed and tempo, for working variations of hard and soft strikes, for working variations on set-up and finishing strikes........

But that's just one opinion.....

Peace--


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## Elfan (Jul 11, 2003)

I find forms to be a useful method of exercising principles of motion and of self defense.    It would seem pretty applicable to "combat" to have those internalized.


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## MJS (Jul 11, 2003)

Once again, regarding the 'grappling' in Kenpo.  There are different versions of grappling...standing and on the ground.  Sure, it addresses the stand up type...grabs and holds.  It does not address someone mounted on top of you trying to hit you.  

I was hoping that this topic would not cause another heated debate like on past topics, but I can see that we are headed in that direction!!

MJS


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## MJS (Jul 11, 2003)

Correct me if I'm wrong--wait a min..I don't have to worry about that now do I?  Regarding things learned too quickly.  Don't you want to be able to do that?  I mean, whats the sense of learning something if you have to wait 2 yrs before you can really apply it?  I might be reading that wrong, and forgive me if I am.  Just the way it sounds to me.  

I mean, if you can join the military and they teach you SD, shooting and all the other stuff, and then ship you over seas, dont you think that that isnt having to learn quickly? The same for a LEO.  The academy is less than a year, and then you have some OJT.  Then you're by yourself.  You will not encounter every situation there is while you have a trainer to correct you.  You will have to learn as you go.  

MJS


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 11, 2003)

We simply have very different aims in martial arts study. And, in point of fact, the difference in them can be explained in very traditional terms--young guys wanna fight; older guys wanna learn kata. 

Both are valid--and not just in terms of theory.


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## MJS (Jul 11, 2003)

So, are you saying that "older" people have no interest in SD?  That they only want to do kata, nothing more?  I understand and have acknowledged many many times that we all train for different reasons.  However anybody wants to train is their business.  They are entitled to do what ever they want.  But maybe that 50 yo man that works in the city with the high crime rate, who parks his car in the lot and walks 10 min to his office and doesnt get out of work until 9pm, wants to be ready for the mugger that is waiting in the lot for his next victim.  I don't think he'll be wanting to spend his training time doing kata, but instead some SD that is going  to work!

MJS


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 11, 2003)

Actually, I believe that I have more than several times posted that I was interested in self-defense quite a bit, and fighting not at all. 

I've also noted that I cross-read, now that I'm allowed to. And to again repeat something I've already posted, it is worth noting that the practical, fighting styles of t'ai chi put kata first, precisely to ensure that the practictioner learns to defend themselves. 

They also note that the forms, first the slow ones and then the fast ones, fill a room with things that you need--but without a good instructor, the door remains locked. 

Hey! This cross-reading stuff works! I'm convinced!


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## MJS (Jul 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Actually, I believe that I have more than several times posted that I was interested in self-defense quite a bit, and fighting not at all.
> 
> Still didn't answer the question Rob.  What is the difference between the 2---fighting vs SD?  If you get into a confrontation, you are defending yourself, which means that you have to strike your attacker in some way, shape or form.  Therefore, is that not fighting?  Remember, I'm not talking about UFC, I'm talking about SD.  You are learning how to defend yourself if and when you are attacked.
> ...


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## MJS (Jul 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> [
> They also note that the forms, first the slow ones and then the fast ones, fill a room with things that you need--but without a good instructor, the door remains locked.
> 
> ...


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## Kalicombat (Jul 12, 2003)

MJS,
   I'll give you my interpretation of the difference between fighting and self defense. The two are completly different entities.
   Fighting is a choice, usually between, but not limited to 2 particapants. Both parties have made the consious decision  to engage in an altercation with one another.  Either party can simply walk away from the altercation. Fighting, at least outside a studio, is usually ego-based, and for the most part is avoidable.  Not to mention that fighting is illegal. Also, im my experience, when police arrive at a "fight", both parties are suspect, but the bigger opponent will usually be looked on as the aggressor. 
   Self-defense is a completley different monster.  Not all scenarios are the same, so dont go off on a diatribe of "what ifs",  to diffute my post. Im only offering you some of my insight. 
    Self defense usually involves a predator-vs-prey type scenario. The predator can be an individual or a group, and in most instances, the attack or altercation is premeditated.  A self defense act is also often a reaction to the attack. Self defense is legal and a viable defense in the event of serious injury or death to the predator. 
   Personally, I have engaged in alot more fights then self defense situations, but have none the less.  For me, fighting was usually alcohol influenced, and had no real point except to prove who was "baddest".  There is no sense in fighting when the outcome can seperate you from your family. Going to the emergency room on a friday night to have broken glass removed from your mug is not worth the hassle....and that phone call to the wife to come get you from the local PD is even worse, honest.
    On the other hand, I hate people that prey on individuals for whatever reason. I refuse to be a victim, and if I am pushed into a self-defense situation, there is no moderation, no amount of force too great to protect me, my family, or those things I deem protectible. 
.....thats how I see it. 

Gary Catherman, Kenpoist


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## Sigung86 (Jul 12, 2003)

Very well stated Gary... Sounds like you might have been there a time or two! :lol:

Always enjoy reading your posts, old friend.

Dan Farmer


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 12, 2003)

Well, since you've asked, I'll be darned if I see how pointlessly-flashy displays of acrobatics, coupled with fake ki-ais and bad manners--and yes, I've seen this too at tournaments--can be laid at the door of tradition. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but every time I've heard or seen this crap--and the disrespectful sparring, and the lousy behavior of competitors, and the bad manners of parents, and the yelling for a six-year-old to, "kill 'em,"--it looks to me like it's been justified on the grounds that this brings us closer to "the real thing," and away from the tired unrealism of worn-out tradition.

I don't do forms that way--among other things, my *** would fall off. And frankly, I'd argue that the sorts of stuff you describe begins with the notion of abolishing traditions that are there for good reasons, to "open things up," for more crowd-pleasing and excitement.

I also don't go to tournaments much, in part because of what you describe, so I guess we can agree on that. 

But what we'd disagree on, I'm afraid, is that when I think about it--I've never seen anybody who respects those forms and has struggled to do them well behave badly. Correlation does not imply causation, but given the fact that I've seen the forms' actions on at least one truly scary guy, I wonder...


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 12, 2003)

Gary: 

Thanks. Not only do I agree, but I think you put that very well.


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## MJS (Jul 12, 2003)

Well Rob, I'm certainly glad to see that we finally agree on something.  I do not attend tournaments anymore either, due to the fact that I mentioned.  If I'm going to do a kata, I want to do the kata as it is meant to be.  I don't want to change the entire thing by adding in the crazy things that I mentioned.  

Mike


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## Kenpomachine (Jul 13, 2003)

But the problem you're writting about is not only with the flashy techniques but with judges that allow them to win tournaments instead of looking for technical quality and good rythm and all those atributes that must be there when you perform a form.

Another completely different thing is when you're performing a hard style form vs a soft style one. ..

I guess that's the reason I go to kenpo only tournaments


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## MJS (Jul 13, 2003)

Very true.  Most of the tournaments around have 2 divisions---one of them being traditional.  Its too bad though that people have to take away from the idea of the kata, and add in a bunch of crap.  You could go and do your best Long Form 2, but unless you drop down to a split and do a cartwheel, you are not going to win.  

Mike


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## progressivetactics (Jul 13, 2003)

> Its too bad though that people have to take away from the idea of the kata, and add in a bunch of crap



i sort of disagree with that last statement.  Just as you mentioned, there is usually a seperate division for people who DO WANT TO ADD IN THAT CRAP!.  Let them add it.  They should be judged on all the normal points of karate, but in its own division.  I don't think there is anything wrong with people adding personal expression, pushing themselves to new levels in physical capabilities, even if it means acrobatics, and presentation should always be a part of  your kata....So what if the presentation doesn't have the same techniques you prefer, or are capable of... If they are able to do it, make it fit the form, do it strong, and still have a kata within all the jumping and flashyness... I say go for it.  As long as it is in its own division.

If it wasn't for someone saying "i like to do it this way" somewhere in the past, we wouldn't have but 1 form version between all our different arts.  Right now, I see 10 different ways of doing a form like Bassai.  And I like seeing all that diversity.  Some I think are very applicable versions....some not so.  But that diversity is a GOOD thing, I believe.

just my 2 cents.


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 13, 2003)

Sure, fine, I guess. I suppose I'm jealous that I never could've done this stuff--and perhaps even more jealous that I never wanted to.

But the thing is--do they actually still have a kata? or do they have this thing that was designed to impress judges looking for acrobatics, leaping ability, high kicks, fancy gestures?

We can all agree or disagree about the practical value of kata. The fact remains that the forms were designed for very different purposes--their history, the intent behind them (again, I'm not passing judgment on whether or not they're useful) makes them something other than what passes for forms.

Gymnastics are wonderful to watch. Great--so let's just identify them as gymnastics...or, let's argue for the wu shu forms in which the acrobtics, leaping, etc. actually means something.

I also (now folks can get annoyed) believe that the appearance of things like the Paul Mitchell team is a good sign of just what's wrong in martial arts today--not just capitalism, but the sense that whatever gets you over is good, the sense that only winning counts, the sense that only what's really fancy matters.

I need to see a good judo tournament.


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## MJS (Jul 13, 2003)

Well, once again, I find myself agreeing with Robert!  I used to compete at many tournaments.  It has nothing to do whether or not I can do a cart wheel or split, it has to do with what rob said in his last paragraph.  We are supposed to be talking about kata, and what you can learn from them, not how many acrobatic moves you can do.  If a kata is supposed to have moves in it in which you can use to fight, I'd really like to see someone fight by doing a cartwheel!  True, they have seperate divisions for the kata, but lets look at the weapons divisions.  Now, its been a long time since I've been to a tourny. but I don't think that they have separte div. for weapons, and if you watch that closely, you'll see alot of flash also.  Now, is that fair for someone who is doing an excellent bo kata, to get beat by another guy doing a bo kata.....the only difference is that he adds cartwheels to his?

Once again, let me say, before this gets out of control, I am NOT talking about myself and what I am or am not capable of.  I'm talking about the tournys. as a whole.  

MJS


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## LoneWolfandCub (Jul 14, 2003)

I agree....you see guys doing long four and getting so deep in a horse their cup almost drags on the floor or kicking a hole in the ceiling in snaking talons or protecting fans to impress the judges, why change our form to please the judges? This makes no sense to me, if its a kick to the groin it might not look as impressive but it is definately more effective.
Tournements IMHO have actually lowered the standard and purpose of why we do some of of what we do in kata and our respective arts.


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## Pyros (Jul 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *OK, You Could spend your time training with a partner ...  *



In the old times, there were stories about how Master X trained kata for 3 hours everyday for 5 years, then he beat up everybody. What people today don't understand is what "kata training" constitutes. People mistakenly think Master X stood alone in the dojo or on a beach (next to a beautyful sunset, of course) and performed the solo form until he was bored out of his wits. Traditionally, "kata training" meant not just solo practice but bunkai training too. Bunkai training means all kinds of partner exercises. You open the kata, you practice some of it. Then you open it more and practice some more. Kata training means the whole process of learning the form and learning to apply and use it on a living, breathing, resisting person. Without this, you can not speak about "kata training" only "solo training".

:asian:


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2003)

Thats right pyros---you will only get out of it what you put into it!!  Its one thing to just go through the moves, but if you really stop and think about what you are doing, then you will definately get more out of it.  

Mike


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## Michael Billings (Jul 15, 2003)

... and nuff said.


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## progressivetactics (Jul 15, 2003)

> . Now, is that fair for someone who is doing an excellent bo kata, to get beat by another guy doing a bo kata.....the only difference is that he adds cartwheels to his?



Who's fault is it that he gets beat?  The cartwheeler or the judges who believed the cartwheel added enough difficulty difference to supercede the well executed first kata?  

All sports have people trying harder and harder to set the standards higher, to achieve more, to accomplish more.  Why is that wrong?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that flash & trash deserves to win....But that does not mean that Tradition deserves to win because it is _traditional_ 

Everyone is complaining about how unfair it is that people do cartwheels and back flips....Why aren't we as a group hosting clinics on Judging tournaments, requiring certain credentials to be a judge, informing students before hand what the expectations are, before they compete.  Not sit and complain about what it has become, and "back when I was doing it" stuff.  Make a difference in the sport.  

A point in sparring (in a tournament) isn't the most effective technique thrown.  It is a karate technique, if had been thrown at full force and power, would have stopped an opponent THAT A MAJORITY OF THE JUDGES SEE.  How often have you seen a judge award a point for a technique that everyone knows landed.  Even the reciever is on the floor.  But it was totally impossible for 1 or more of the judges to actually SEE it land?  Should we complain about fighting rules too?  Instruct students, instruct judges. Make a difference in what you believe to be correct.  



> If a kata is supposed to have moves in it in which you can use to fight, I'd really like to see someone fight by doing a cartwheel!



I've done it.  It wasn't pretty, but I was in a 7 on 3 situation and got knocked on the side of my head from someone 90degress from me.  I fell off to the side, and as I was going, dropped my arms, rolled through a cartwheel, created some space for myself, and was ready to continue.  I wouldn't have won a trophy for my cartwheel, as I still can't do them correctly, but I did the motion of one, created distance, and kept from landing face down on the concrete.  And in the end, the good guys one....So The cartwheel is as legitamate a step as a shuffle step.  It got me out of immediate danger!


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## rmcrobertson (Jul 15, 2003)

I agree with everything--except the idea about, "sports," and, "achieving more." That, I think, is quite wrong--and not just because I don't study martial arts for sport purposes. 

I think it's wrong because it defines, "improvement," or, "evolution," if you like, as tricks, techniques, gymnastics, "higher," kicks, "faster," moves, etc...

I don't think that's what, "improvement," means at all.


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2003)

Ok, point taken.  Reguarding the flash.  I think that the main idea of this thread, was to discuss the benefits of what you can get out of kata, and the applications that are in them.  Tournaments today seem to favor the person that shows up to the majority.  If I went to one and was up against someone who has been going to them on a regular basis, its not going to make a damn bit of difference if we did the same kata...fact of the matter is, is that the other guy will win because he shows up to more of them.  The icing on the cake, is by him adding the fancy moves.  

We sit here and talk about grappling and how bad it is to go to the ground.  Ok, but do you want to risk doing a cart wheel, when you have no idea what you might be putting your hands on?  You said that you went with the motion of the hit, therefore, as you were falling, you went with it and did a cartwheel.  Fine, but you could have planted you hands right into some glass, rocks, nails, etc.  

As for the judges.  I've seen many of the same judge at the different tournys.  That is another point regarding the guy who rarely goes and the one who is there at every event.  The judges get to know you.  Is that a fair judging?? I dont think so!

Comparing sparring and kata are 2 different events.  You cant compare the rules in the 2.

As for the cartwheel.  Ok, it might have worked for you, but is it going to work in all situations?  I'd like to see a 300lb man doing a cartwheel.  Hey, maybe they can, I dont know, I'm not 300 lbs.  so who am I to judge that.  Just trying to think logically here.    

In my opinion, doing a move like that, runs the risk of getting you into some trouble.  Its in the same category of doing any jumping or spinning kicks.  If you don't do them properly, you will telegraph your movement. 

Mike


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## Kenpomachine (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *I think it's wrong because it defines, "improvement," or, "evolution," if you like, as tricks, techniques, gymnastics, "higher," kicks, "faster," moves, etc...
> 
> I don't think that's what, "improvement," means at all. *



I agree with this. Most people doing "flashy katas" just don't think about a probable use of the cartwheel or the spinning kick. They just do it for the sake of doing it, without giving it a further thought, but only because it makes you win tourneys.

IMHO, new movements in forms is not a good/bad thing by itself, it depends on the whole of the form and whether or not it has a meaning to the practitioners of that certain style (at least). If it's worthless/useless moves one after another then it's just an "empty" form, which is not the same as non traditional.


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *I agree with this. Most people doing "flashy katas" just don't think about a probable use of the cartwheel or the spinning kick. They just do it for the sake of doing it, without giving it a further thought, but only because it makes you win tourneys.
> 
> IMHO, new movements in forms is not a good/bad thing by itself, it depends on the whole of the form and whether or not it has a meaning to the practitioners of that certain style (at least). If it's worthless/useless moves one after another then it's just an "empty" form, which is not the same as non traditional. *



I agree with both you and Rob!!

Mike


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## Kirk (Jul 15, 2003)

I agree with MJS' agreeing with Kenpomachine's agreeing with Rob!


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## RCastillo (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by LoneWolfandCub _
> *I agree....you see guys doing long four and getting so deep in a horse their cup almost drags on the floor or kicking a hole in the ceiling in snaking talons or protecting fans to impress the judges, why change our form to please the judges? This makes no sense to me, if its a kick to the groin it might not look as impressive but it is definately more effective.
> Tournements IMHO have actually lowered the standard and purpose of why we do some of of what we do in kata and our respective arts. *



I agree with you. Anything to pad the form just to win is crap, and cheapens the art.:soapbox:


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## progressivetactics (Jul 15, 2003)

I agree with.....oh wait.....I'm alone on this....damn.




> I agree with everything--except the idea about, "sports," and, "achieving more." That, I think, is quite wrong--and not just because I don't study martial arts for sport purposes.



I don't either.



> I think it's wrong because it defines, "improvement," or, "evolution," if you like, as tricks, techniques, gymnastics, "higher," kicks, "faster," moves, etc...



Well, i didn't mean all inclusive, however; I do believe personal evolution or improvments CAN BE by improving your athleticism, which would pertain to this.





> Ok, point taken. Reguarding the flash. I think that the main idea of this thread, was to discuss the benefits of what you can get out of kata, and the applications that are in them.



Correct, but it graduated to this point.  Sorry I want on my little tangent.





> If I went to one and was up against someone who has been going to them on a regular basis, its not going to make a damn bit of difference if we did the same kata...fact of the matter is, is that the other guy will win because he shows up to more of them.



No....i think he would win because you have given up before you tried.  I have seen many 'no names' beat out nationally ranked competitors.   Just about 2 months ago, a soft fist stylist almost beat out 2 national competitors in Detroit, but ended up walking off the floor after he screwed up.  We (the judges) all told him afterwards, he was going to win 1st the way it was headed.  Very seldom does a soft fist form beat a hard fist form in Detroit area.  






> You said that you went with the motion of the hit, therefore, as you were falling, you went with it and did a cartwheel. Fine, but you could have planted you hands right into some glass, rocks, nails, etc.



That is exactly correct.  And much better my hands take that then my face or head.  





> The judges get to know you. Is that a fair judging?? I dont think so!



This is a good question.  How about when you grade a student on an exam...  You know his good and his bad techniques. Do you ask him to demonstrate the things you know he is bad at?  Do you require him to do the good ones even though you know already from class how he does them?  It is not much different then judging someone you see week in and week out. I may know the basic lay out of their flashy form, but that gives me an advantage in judging and puts them at a disadvantage, because now I know what to look for, or can compare it to how they did it last week.





> Comparing sparring and kata are 2 different events. You cant compare the rules in the 2.


I am only saying the sparring isn't perfect either. My point was that it is better to help solve then to sideline complain.  We are always trying to improve, but negative attitudes and speculation about what goes on is always going to hurt the arts, sport or no sport.





> As for the cartwheel. Ok, it might have worked for you, but is it going to work in all situations? I'd like to see a 300lb man doing a cartwheel. Hey, maybe they can, I dont know, I'm not 300 lbs. so who am I to judge that. Just trying to think logically here.


I'm 250.  And in this day and age, I would't be suprised if it is on the net somewhere, with people laughing at me for my sorry rendition of a cartwheel.





> In my opinion, doing a move like that, runs the risk of getting you into some trouble. Its in the same category of doing any jumping or spinning kicks. If you don't do them properly, you will telegraph your movement.



Isn't that true of everything?  And isn't that why we practice everything over and over?  TO help elimate some of the telegraphs in our movement.   

Sirs, I mean no disrespect in my opinions and points of view. Please don't take anything as offensive. I merely think that way to many people don't like sport karate, or don't fully understand it, and therefore condemn it.  I believe sport karate to be an excellent release for students. I think it improves many aspects of their training.  I don't push tournaments, I don't compete in them, But I support some of my fellow martial artists who hold tournaments, and I encourage any of my students who want to compete in them.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jul 15, 2003)

Lot's of good stuff in this thread--but it does seem to have wandered a bit...  I do want to take this opportunity to comment on some earlier posts and to throw in some of my uniquely bizarre personal opinions.

Sub-topic 1:  2-man Kata and Bunkai training.
Tshadowchaser:  You commented early on that Kata is not necessarily solo practice and that many sytems have 2-man forms.  
Lonewolfandcub:  you responded that EPAK has a 2-man set.
Pyros:  you commented on the importance of Bunkai training to supplement Kata practice.

I would argue that each and every self-defense technique in EPAK and Tracy's Kenpo Karate are in fact 2-man Kata.  The movements and responses are pre-arranged.  They are drilled with specific movements, timing, transitions, a formal beginning, and a formal ending.  Practice of techniques with speed, contact, and/or what-if variation is the Kenpo version of Bunkai.  I would also argue that the self-defense/fight training value of Bunkai/self-defense techniques is better than that of solo Kata practice, but it is still a form of Kata practice. All of the nasty comments I've made about Kata practice as self-defense/fight training still apply.

Sub-topic 2:  Robert McRobertson's posts.  Robert:  I agree with more of your comments on this thread than on any other thread or forum where I have lurked or posted since obtaining the free-time to do so at work this spring.  

One comment made me chuckle with a fond memory:  Your comment about fake kiais in Kata competition.  Back in the late 80's, I remember judging a Jr. Kenpo Kata division where some Shaolin Kenpo (with an "N") students were doing the big long kiai thing in their katas.  There was one pre-teen competitor who would open his mouth really wide and sustain his kiai for as long as his little lungs would let him.  All of the judges were either EPAK or from my school.  We were all joking about what would happen if we threw a tennis ball into his mouth while he was kiaing...

One comment that did not make me chuckle was your comment that younger guys want to fight and older guys want to do Kata.  I did too much Kata when I was younger and not enough fighting.  Now that I am middle-aged (42), I am doing all my training with fighting/sparring in mind.  Maybe you are right and when I am older I will want to do Kata.  But I feel pretty old now and all I want to do is practice fighting.

Sub-topic 3:  Traditional vs Open forms competitions, cartwheels, etc.

I think it may have all started with a jumping kick...Back in the old days, there was only traditional Japanese Kata, Kung Fu katas, Korean Katas, and Kenpo/Kajukenbo forms.  After watching the umpteenth Short 3, the umpteenth Heian Godan, etc. forms competition became really really boring.  Somebody somewhere probably decided to jump with a front kick and the martial arts world has never recovered.  In the early 80's Ernie Reyes Jr. came along and at about 7 years old blew away every Kata competitor at the Internationals.  

So what is my point?  It's this.  I abhore open forms competition.  Cartwheels landing in the spits, spinning around with multiple wheel-kicks, scowling kids in bright satin gi's:  It's just plain ridiculous.  I much prefer traditional forms.  But open forms are a necessary outlet for creativity and for experimentation that can only improve the martial arts long-term.  

Sub-topic 4:  the practicallity of cartwheels in self-defense.  
My personal opinion is that trying to do a cartwheel in a fight would probably be the last thing I would remember before waking up in the hospital.  That being said...Last week we did cartwheels during warm-up in my Brazilian Jiu Jitsu class.  Now how stupid do you think a fat, balding, 42-year old, 220 pounder looks trying to do cartwheels?  Well, in BJJ, you can actually do a guard pass-to-mount with a cartwheel.  I looked pretty stupid doing it, and I couldn't make it work.  But the black belt who taught the class and many of the advanced students made it work on me no matter how hard I tried to resist.


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## Pyros (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Pyros:  you commented on the importance of Bunkai training to supplement Kata practice.*



Just to be really picky... I don't think you should supplement kata practise with bunkai training, I think kata practice always contains bunkai training. Otherwise I wouldn't call it kata training at all, just solo training. I know this sounds picky and meaningless, but it is about the definition of the term "kata training". In my view, if you are only doing solo training, and no bunkai training, then you can't really say you are training kata. You are just going through the motions.

I often like to use the "kata is a book" metaphor. If we understand that kata is the old Okinawan style of writing a book on self defence techniques (you know, the old bushi didn't have printers at their disposals nor did all the students know how to read in the first place...) then solo practice is equivalent of reading the book on self defence methods, and bunkai training with partner is the actual training process of the methods in the book. If you just sit there reading a book on self defence methods, you won't learn much. You must stand up and do it on someone who fights back. Same with kata, if you only do solo form, you are only reading the technique list, not training to use them.

:asian:


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2003)

I guess this thread did start to wonder a little, but thats ok, because it makes it more interesting.  Progressive--no offense taken!!  Like I had said earlier, I started this thread with the intention of talking about the movements in the kata, and how they can be used for SD.  To address a few things in your post.  

As far as a 'no name' beating a regular--  I personally have not seen much of this.  I say this, cuz it has happened to me when I was competing, and I'd slowly see the 'no names' get weeded out, eventually leaving the well known guys to compete amongst themselves.  My opinion--you have to be pretty damn good to go up against the well known guy.

As for giving up--  Well, considering I went to the tourny with a group, and prior to the event, we all busted out a**es training, watching each other doing the katas to correct footwork, stances, etc. and then to show up and get beat by a guy doing a split, and screaming--notice I say screaming, not doing a kiai---that alone is enough to make you want to give up. I should not have to drop into a split and scream as if I'm being stabbed in the heart, just to win!

As for practice--  You are correct!  That is exactly why we do things over and over and over again---to get better at them.  An example for you.  I was sparring in class one day.  I was fighting this guy, who, when the match started, came charging in at me.  I did a spinning back kick, that landed right on his chest, knocking him to the ground.  My next match, against a different person, I attempted the same kick at one point during the fight.  He saw it coming, moved in, jammed the kick, and hit me in the head.  In addition to the practice,  you need to have that timing down also.  Otherwise, every time you throw that kick, they will see it coming.

In regards to the sport aspect of it---  It all depends on the person, as we all train for different reasons.  However, you will fight like you train.  Take for example TKD.  I have seen many TKD guys throw kicks with their hands down while sparring.  Now, are they going to do the same thing in a real situation?  I would hope not.  Maybe in TKD they dont allow hits to the head, so thats why they keep their hands down...I dont know...only assuming...but by doing something like that outside, you might find yourself waking up on the ground.

Anyway--excellent posts and comments by everybody!

Mike


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## progressivetactics (Jul 16, 2003)

Pryros--
interesting interpretation.  
I'll buy that.

MJS-  Good stuff. I agree.
And I do agree about regulars winning more times then not..but that only makes sense... Attitude, attendance often get compensation.  
As for the TKD, you are correct...they are not allowed hands to the head in sparring.  My guess is, they will (in SD) keep their hands down more times then not, because that is how they (majority of clubs i belonged to, or seen) practice.


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## Scott Bonner (Jul 16, 2003)

Depends on the TKD.  There's a world of difference between sport/olympic/WTF TKD and comprehensive/traditional/ITF TKD (even these 2 groupings are a horrible overgeneralization -- there's as many kinds of TKD as Kenpo).

I'm learning a more comprehensive TKD.  When we spar, it's all good hand or foot high or low, and we don't spar for points.  It's hard-hitting and continuous and not at all related to tournament sparring.  And, this kind of TKD has a lot of what Kenpo calls self-defense techniques (though most aren't as long or complex, generally).

And, it's all about power.  We don't emphasize tournaments, so much of the training is about hitting with stopping force on pads and shields and full travel in the air, though we do use control when sparring and doing self-defense.

I'm only an orange belt in this TKD, though, so I don't know what it's like later.  There's a lot to the system, though.  With consistent training, getting to black should take me at least 6 to 7 years.  It's not a school (free training at a park) so I know it's not about money, either.

My point is that there's a lot to TKD, and many kinds of TKD, and you can't make any generalizations about all TKD any more than you can about all Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo/Tracy's/EPAK/you-get-the-idea.

Peace,
Scott


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## MJS (Jul 16, 2003)

Yup--I understand what you are saying Scott.  i'm just going on what I have seen on the art.  Personally, I really dont know much about it, so I cant judge it 100%.  However, as the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words!" goes....the TKD that I have seen, did not paint a good pic.

Just my opinion!

MJS


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## twinkletoes (Jul 16, 2003)

Mike,

What a great topic!  I just wrote an article on this a couple of months ago, and it will be one of the featured articles on Roy Harris' new site when it launches.  

I'll give you the abridged version:

There are 2 types of Kata in traditional arts.  Type #1 is a choreographed set of moves executed by one or more practitioners.  Karate kata are this kind.

Type #2 is a single move, but executed in a certain manner to demonstrate the form of the technique.  Traditional Jujutsu uses this.  (I.e. the instructor asks you to demonstrate the Hip throw "kata", in which case you do a hip throw and he evaluates the technical correctness of your hip throw).  I will not discuss type #2 because we all need to learn a move with good mechanics, and practice it as such.  It would be silly to say these are pointless.  


Type #1 is a tricky beast, but I will say this:  

Practicing kata builds the following attributes:

Focus, Concentration, Endurance, Flexibility, Strength, Speed, Flow, Stamina, Muscle memory, emotional control, and more.

However, it does not build the following attributes:

Timing and Positioning.

Those of us who are adopting a Thorntonian approach to training realize that this puts kata in the 1st "I" stage:  skill introduction.  This is not knocking kata!  But it is still practicing skills for the purpose of practicing skills.  There is nothing wrong with that--that is important!  Everyone should execute their moves with the right mechanics: you can't proceed without good mechanics into isolation and integration.  

However, in order to build skills that will be useful in an unchoreographed environment, kata (and other I-1 training like bag work, reps in front of a mirror, and others) must be paired with alive isolation (I-2) drills that use unchoreographed footwork and timing.  This will build appropriateness, so that the skills more easily integrate (I-3) into sparring or melees or mob scenes or whatever you use this for in real life.  

I am actually revising the article again right now, before Mr. Harris launches his new site.  I will let you know when the article goes up!

Best,

~TT


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