# How important is full contact for self defense?



## Joab (Jul 31, 2009)

Lousy title, I apologize, but sometimes it is hard to fit an idea into a title. The question really is, how important is full contact training for preparing oneself for self defense? There is a school of thought that I think quite logically states that you need full contact so you get used to taking blows should a self defense emergency arise. There seems to be a concensus that normally when you are attacked you will get hit, hence if you arn't used to taking blows you won't be hardened or tough or prepared enough to take a blow should you be hit when somebody attacks.

Than there is a school of thought that states that what really works in a self defense emergency is too dangerous for full contact. That to train or spar full contact using techniques that "really work" would result in the practitioners being maimed or killed every class. That would of course be completely unacceptable.

What do I think? Well, I'm kind of confused to be honest. I think there are merits in both arguements. So I ask those who know more, what do you think?


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## Empty Hands (Jul 31, 2009)

Put it this way: it can't possibly hurt.  It will prepare you better than not having full contact.  Full contact obviously isn't completely necessary, you can still defend yourself without it.  But you will do better if you have that training - your odds will be increased.


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## Omar B (Jul 31, 2009)

Getting hit is an integral part of learning self defense.  Training against static opponents might give you great form but getting punched in the nose in class prepares you not to freak out when it actually happens.  I've seen people get hit and suddenly their form goes to crap and they look totally out of sorts, learning to take a heavy blow instils a composure that you need on the street.


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## Andrew Green (Jul 31, 2009)

As important as a mountain is to downhill skiiing.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 31, 2009)

Very. 

Just a couple of things it teaches....

It conditions you to take a hit; otherwise, you'd probably freeze the first time you actually did get hit and hesitation will get you killed. 

It teaches you timing and distance with an active opponent. 

It helps you recognize holes in your defense.


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 31, 2009)

It's a continuum, not a dichotomy.

The more 'injurious' the attack the less realistic the training.  Bites and Eye Gouges?  Fake it the best you can.  Punches and Kicks?  Pad up to your acceptance level and go for it..  Wrist locks and arm bars?  To the point where you know pressure is being applied but not to the point where you cause damage

As we say in the school "Protect And Respect" (followed by "As you Give, so shall you Receive")


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## Joab (Jul 31, 2009)

Good points all. There are those proponents of non contact self defense who maintain that sparring is actually detrimental because it conditions your mind to use non maiming and lethal moves, and that wearing pads leads to a sort of false mindset regarding how hard blows will feel when your hit without pads.

I think though that overall it is a good idea to take some blows to get used to it, even if blows to the windpipe, gouges to the eyes, kicks to the knee, etc. would be prohibited, otherwise when you do get hit you won't be used to it and might freeze up, freak out and the like. But it needs to be very controlled so it doesn't get out of hand and somebody doesn't get really hurt or killed in class.


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## tallgeese (Jul 31, 2009)

Heavy contact should be part of every curriculum if it's sd based.  Now, proper protective gear should be used and a monitor outside the conflict needs to kind of ref the bout to make sure everyone's taken care of.  

This kind of thing, especially when done against scenario based attacks, can get really intense.  Even sparring at high levels needs to be monitored by an outside man. 

Now, it does not need to be every night, and couldn't be if done properly.  But it's an invaluable tool for prepping both mentally and physically for real world encounters.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 31, 2009)

If you're not using contact, then you're not training against a realistic attack.  If your partner isn't trying to hit you, then you're going to create bad habits that could get you killed when someone throws a real attack your way.  After all, how can you be sure your defense is going to work unless it's really defending a realistic attack?  A partner that punches over your shoulder, or stops the punch before it lands isn't getting you ready for that guy who punches right at your nose.  

Included with contact needs to be a lack of forewarning as to what attack is coming.  If you are defending against a right punch for example, and start off light, then build up to your partner throwing the punch full force, you're getting the technique down, but you're still missing out on the diagnostic portion where you determine what your opponent is attacking with.  If your defense for that right punch requires you to move before the opponent punches, what do you do if he kicks?  Or tries to tackle you?  It's easy to defend a full power attack if you know what is coming before hand.  The lack of spontanaiety doesn't lend itself well to applying your skills in a real world environment.  

Basically, what most schools I've seen do is start off with light attacks, with no real power, speed or intent so students can get used to the techniques and movement.  Then they build up some speed and power with the attacks.  Most stop there.  IMHO, what they need to do is open the SD training to include some verbal components to simulate a real world encounter, then let the attacker do whatever attack they want.  The student tries to pick up visual cues from body movement, angles, and position to determine which attack is coming, then defend against it.  The lack of knowing what attack is coming, from what angle, what target, etc is the hardest part about applying your martial arts skills outside of the dojo.  

My general guidelines for self defense training:  
If you aren't getting hit, you're not training for real and if looks good, your partner is being too nice.  

Now, think of this type of training as the finishing touch to your masterpiece.  It's the leap from your technical preparation in the dojo, to the stark reality of street violence.  Get your technique learned with light contact, increase the intensity until it's all out, then make it a random attack.  Use padding as appropriate and most importantly, leave your ego in the gym bag.  

YMMV


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## still learning (Aug 1, 2009)

Hello, YES and NO....

"Yes"... because you will learn "true" experience of (almost) real fighting, with rules.

NO..because today you will lose lots of students (NOT showing up for classes)....and everyone can learn with less contact...1/2, 1/3, 1/4 power hits...

How important is full contact for training....the more, you get..better you will learn what works and what doesn't.....

On a scale of weights?  ....4870 lbs.  or  21 coconut trees ( hawaiian measurements).     If using birds- 4 eagles, and one turkey...

Aloha,


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## still learning (Aug 1, 2009)

Hello, YES and NO....

"Yes"... because you will learn "true" experience of (almost) real fighting, with rules.

NO..because today you will lose lots of students (NOT showing up for classes)....and everyone can learn with less contact...1/2, 1/3, 1/4 power hits...

How important is full contact for training....the more, you get..better you will learn what works and what doesn't.....

On a scale of weights? ....4870 lbs. or 21 coconut trees ( hawaiian measurements). If using birds- 4 eagles, and one turkey...

Aloha,

PS: Turkey is 12lbs only....NOT 15


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 1, 2009)

I guess it really depends on how well you want to be able to defend yourself........if very well, then full contact is important.....if so-so, then it's not that important at all.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 1, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Getting hit is an integral part of learning self defense.  Training against static opponents might give you great form but getting punched in the nose in class prepares you not to freak out when it actually happens.  I've seen people get hit and suddenly their form goes to crap and they look totally out of sorts, learning to take a heavy blow instils a composure that you need on the street.



Exactly!  A good question anyone should follow up with this initial question is this.....if we're expecting to defend ourselves, what do we believe the odd's are that we might just get sucker punched as a beginning of an attack?  

If we look at real world self-defense situations, an unprovoked assault is often the beginning of the situation.......if we're to weather that initial assault, we need to know how to react appropriately (mentally AND physically) to getting hit, and not be overwhelmed by that.

Now, who is MOST likely to come through such an initial assault unscathed?  A boxer with MUCH full contact training, or a Taekwondo practioner with none?  Obviously the boxer, who has been hit, isn't going to be nearly as phased by the psychological or even physiological effects of getting punched as somehow who hasn't experienced it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 1, 2009)

Joab said:


> Good points all. There are those proponents of non contact self defense who maintain that sparring is actually detrimental because it conditions your mind to use non maiming and lethal moves, and that wearing pads leads to a sort of false mindset regarding how hard blows will feel when your hit without pads.
> 
> I think though that overall it is a good idea to take some blows to get used to it, even if blows to the windpipe, gouges to the eyes, kicks to the knee, etc. would be prohibited, otherwise when you do get hit you won't be used to it and might freeze up, freak out and the like. But it needs to be very controlled so it doesn't get out of hand and somebody doesn't get really hurt or killed in class.



Yeah, I know......the 'My Art is FAR to LETHAL To Spar' school of thought.\

Bottom line is that you can still train those techniques and SPAR to get use to real fights, as you rightly point out.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 1, 2009)

Hi,

I feel that we need a few definitions here. What exactly do you mean by "full contact training"? In the original post the only phrase used was "full contact training for preparing oneself for self defense", but some have read into that the concept of sparring (I think celtic_crippler was the first here). Personally, I didn't read that in the original post, but you (Joab) appears to have taken the idea on as well. Which did you mean? I'll try to address both here, though.

First, with regard to non-sparring training, we need to establish what limitations and restrictions are being placed on the training. As Fearless Freep stated, you simply cannot train full contact with quite a variety of "self defence" techniques. For example, a full contact kick to the groin is not something I feel is required to understand it's power, and a good, hard kick to the side of the knee is potentially very damaging. So what are we defining as "full contact training"?

I personally feel that contact is very necessary, but "full contact" is not realistic in a training situation. So how do we train to get the most out of it, and keep the contact at a realistic and productive level? I'll give you some ideas as to how we do it. When it comes to training techniques (opponent attacks with punch "X", student responds with evasive footwork and block "Y", then counter strike/throw "Z"), there are a few different ways we train. These are soft/slow, hard/slow, and soft/fast. There is contact in all versions except occasionally the last. Each are trained for different reasons. Soft/slow is used to allow the student to get an understanding of the distance, targeting, balance and the finer points of making a techinque "work". Contact is firm, and each strike is performed completely. By that I mean that strikes are to target and go "through" the target, giving the student the penetration required. Next, hard/slow is trained in order to give a little more impact/contact, and resistance is brought in to the training. Oh, and resistance here is very different to that found in things such as MMA bouts and sparring, as the resistance found in a real fight is very different. But we'll get to that later. 

Soft/fast is then used to work on timing (also worked on in previous training methods), and targeting under realistic speeds. Obviously at this point, contact becomes limited and protective equipment is worn. You may notice that I haven't mentioned hard/fast. That is done on impact equipment and in solo drills, not on a partner for (I hope) obvious reasons!

Contact is often half power or higher (depending on the target being struck!), giving the student the mindset of actually striking an opponent, as well as acting as a way of conditioning the one being struck. But what that doesn't cover is the emotional and psychological responces to being hit. For that we bring out protective equipment and hit the student. Hard. The student then performs a technique, or defends an attack, or other such training. We also utilise various RBSD drills, such as the "spinning" drill I have mentioned on another thread, which is a very good simulation of being hit hard with a sucker-punch, and then continuing through an assault.

Now to sparring. How are we defining "full contact" when it comes to sparring? Arts such as Kyokushin Karate are quite big proponents of "full contact" sparring and tournaments, but as we saw with the non-sparring version, a number of restrictions come into play. For example, there is no punching to the head (kicks are allowed), and obviously no striking below the belt. So if we are saying that full contact sparring gets you used to being hit in the head, does this cut it? How about if we remove the restrictions but use protective equipment, such as head guards and body armour? Is that full contact even if the effects of the blows are reduced due to what you are wearing?

This is all, of course, assuming that sparring is actually useful for self defence training in the first place... and I don't believe it is. In fact, it can be quite detrimental to your self defence capabilities. Most of my reasons are already on other threads, so there's no real need to go throught hem all here, but we'll cover a part of it at least.

There is only one self defence situation in which sparring is good preparation... and it isn't even a self defence situation when you think about it. That situation is known as a match fight. Essentially, this is when two people agree to fight at a certain place or time ("Hey, you! You want to take this outside?!"), and begins with the opponents "shaping up", and ends when one gives up, or someone steps in to end it (security, police, friends). This is quite rare. A more common situation would involve a group, weapons, and/or an ambush. Sparring doesn't prepare you for this at all.

Oh, and before anyone starts to bring up the usual arguments, yes Military units spar, yes the Marines spar as part of their MCMAP Program, but not for any realistic applications. They spar to engender an aggressive spirit in the soldiers, and to give a feeling of comraderie and competition, as well as because it's fun. In an interview, John Wills, the first Australian BJJ Black Belt under the Machados spoke about his experiences in the US. He was one of a number of martial art instructors invited to teach the Marines, and as a result found himself assisting in the creation of MCMAP. This is major reason BJJ is such a large component of the MCMAP program. But it was not for practical reasons. After all, rolling around on the ground with someone when in full kit when you have fireams and a knife available just doesn't make any sense. But out of the instructors invited to teach the Marines, John was one of the favourites, and the Marines really enjoyed what he taught. So it was incorporated, and to say that just because the Marines spar means that sparring is an effective training tool for real combat is to miss the point of why they spar in the first place. Hmmm, bit of a tangent there. You know what? I'm keeping it.

Now we need to get an understanding of just what "self defence training" actually is. Self defence training is/should be much more than just physical techniques. It needs to address much more than just "punch/kick/throw/choke". The idea of self defence is to give you the skills and ability to safely get home. That's it. Remember that sparring gives you one option: attack aggressively. But is that really the best option in a real self defence situation? Let's say there's a group looking for someone to beat up, say 5 guys who may or may not be armed (you don't know...). To rely on sparring tactics, if they come over to you and start to get aggressive, you attack. Or, is it better to be aware enough to see them coming, not be a "soft" target, or simply leave the situation? That should be part of a self defence system. How about someone who knocks into you in a bar, then starts yelling that you spilled their drink? Do you hit them, choke them out, get grabbed by security, arrested by the police and charged with assault? Or do you attempt to talk them down, and use restraint techniques if that fails? In each of these (and many more) scenarios, there is no contact, full or otherwise required in the training of them.

I said we would deal with the idea of "resistance", didn't I? A common thing heard is that MMA's big benefit is that it gets you used to dealing with "resisting" opponents. While thta is true, you are not dealing with resistance as you would in a real self defence situation. What I mean by that is that the resistance encountered in an MMA bout or sparring session is based on the idea of competition. In competition you have two people attempting to out-perform each other, so they are resisting specific techniques, and countering movements. This is not what you get in a real encounter. In a real encounter you do not have tow mutually aggressive opponents, you have an attacker (typically ambush) and a defender who is attempting to get away safely. Most typically, you have one person trying to hurt another. That person will resist things you do, but will often be more focused on attack than defence, so they will typically not be countering what you do, but may try to escape (say, if you grab them). In fact,if you start hitting them back, you may find that they give up. If focused on attack only, and not defence, then suddenly having to defend can be quite disorientating for an attacker. So resistance as understood in MMA/BJJ/Judo etc will often not actually be encountered in a fight. So that's good news.  

So "full contact" for self defence (non-sparring)? No, that is just dangerous. And if it's not, then you're not looking at something based in what will keep you alive in a real encounter. But when training your techniques and your art, if you have no contact (and it should ideally be above the "comfortable" level), then you are deluding yourself just as badly.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 1, 2009)

Empty Hands said:


> Put it this way: it can't possibly hurt.


 
Actually it can hurt quite a bit. Might even get KO'ed, or broken nose, teeth, hand, arm, etc...

Now I don't want to scare anyone off from full contact, but I do have a few scares from that stuff.

Oh, and do wear a cup. But even a cup won't stop everything.

As for full contact for self defense, any contact is better than none. And the closer you get to all out fighting, the more you understand the dynamics of it and get used to keep going after being hit.

But, I'd limit just how much force is allowed in your full contact and just who you spar. There are idiots and ego maniacs out there who just would love to put you on the ground just to show off to their friends.

Deaf


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## Skpotamus (Aug 1, 2009)

Here's a great example of not using contact in your training vs using contact in your training.  The infamous Kiai Master Challenge Match.  A Daitoryu Aikido master with "no touch" ko ability.  He shows some training where he never touches his students or gets touched.  During the first exchange with the MMA fighter, he gets punched in the mouth, puts his hand over his mouth and freezes for a few seconds, had teh mma fighter not been nice, it could've been a lot uglier than it was.  






A better view of the fight itself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jf3Gc2a0_8&feature=related

ok, so it's more of an example of stupidity than anything else, but it is fun to watch


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## Omar B (Aug 1, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Actually it can hurt quite a bit. Might even get KO'ed, or broken nose, teeth, hand, arm, etc...
> Now I don't want to scare anyone off from full contact, but I do have a few scares from that stuff.
> Oh, and do wear a cup. But even a cup won't stop everything.
> As for full contact for self defense, any contact is better than none. And the closer you get to all out fighting, the more you understand the dynamics of it and get used to keep going after being hit.
> ...



What's wrong with getting a tooth knocked out of a nose broken?  I never got how people get so hung up on stupid crap like that when your life could be at stake.  In class I've chipped, cracked and knocked out teeth, broken my nose, cracked ribs, cracked knuckles.  But the pain is apart of it.  Used to be a time I always carried an ace bandage to class with me because I always pushed it and at some point in the week there would be a new injury ... guess that's why I smashed my knee at 16 right.  Only thing is I've not been knocked out yet.

I think it's a bit of fear on the part of the student and the Coach's fear of gettign sured or loosing students that leads to these no-contact, soft classes where people think they are hot stuff but can't take a side kick to the gut and keep going.


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## pmosiun1 (Aug 1, 2009)

Joab said:


> Lousy title, I apologize, but sometimes it is hard to fit an idea into a title. The question really is, how important is full contact training for preparing oneself for self defense? There is a school of thought that I think quite logically states that you need full contact so you get used to taking blows should a self defense emergency arise. There seems to be a concensus that normally when you are attacked you will get hit, hence if you arn't used to taking blows you won't be hardened or tough or prepared enough to take a blow should you be hit when somebody attacks.
> 
> Than there is a school of thought that states that what really works in a self defense emergency is too dangerous for full contact. That to train or spar full contact using techniques that "really work" would result in the practitioners being maimed or killed every class. That would of course be completely unacceptable.
> 
> What do I think? Well, I'm kind of confused to be honest. I think there are merits in both arguements. So I ask those who know more, what do you think?



These is such things as _progressive_ sparring and aliveness drill, you do not need to go full contact first time out. As long as you spar smartly with mouthguard and other protective equipment, you would be okay.

I believe that sport martial art such as boxing and brazilian jiu jitsu prepares you much more for self defense because they do aliveness drill and spar full contact. The problem with a lot of "too deadly to spar" mentality is that they give you a false sense of security.

It is like when you swim in the water pool and you saw a guy who practice on land, swimming drills. You would ask him why does he not go into the pool? He would answer that the water pool does not prepare him for the ocean with rough sea. You can clearly see the problem with these type of thinking.

You don't have to compete in sport martial art but as long in class you spar full contact and do aliveness drill, you would be more prepare to defend yourself than those that believe sparring is bad for you. A lot of people would be shock the first time they start boxing, if you are no longer shock at getting hit, you would be able to defend yourself under stress.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 1, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> Here's a great example of not using contact in your training vs using contact in your training.  The infamous Kiai Master Challenge Match.  A Daitoryu Aikido master with "no touch" ko ability.  He shows some training where he never touches his students or gets touched.  During the first exchange with the MMA fighter, he gets punched in the mouth, puts his hand over his mouth and freezes for a few seconds, had teh mma fighter not been nice, it could've been a lot uglier than it was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




So the 'No Touch Knockout' doesn't worK?!  SAY IT AIN'T SO JOE!  The guy at 1:16 of the first video was hilarious!  :lfao:

Seriously, do his students really go along with this because of some shared group psychosis......or are they just humoring the old man?

As to the 'match'......the MMA guy is like 'Are you alright, old man?  Seriously.....do you want to sit down?' :lfao:


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## Omar B (Aug 1, 2009)

That video makes me laugh every time I see it.  So much for the too dangerous to spar bunch.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 1, 2009)

Omar B said:


> What's wrong with getting a tooth knocked out of a nose broken? I never got how people get so hung up on stupid crap like that when your life could be at stake. In class I've chipped, cracked and knocked out teeth, broken my nose, cracked ribs, cracked knuckles.


 
Omar,

How many street fights have you been in for all that injury?

Now I'm 54. Kept out of trouble pretty much all my life and have never really need my skills. Yes I have a 7 stich scar on my head from being kicked there, bent front tooth I pushed back from being elbowed while sparring, broke little toe from Judo, broke hand from punching. I suspect if I had of worn gloves or a helmet that protects the face, or shoes, I might have not had any of those injuries yet still the same 'contact'.

I do like contact and I think some is most definatly needed, but it can be done without such injuries.

And Omar, wait till you hit your 50's and those injuries come back to haunt you.

Deaf


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## Omar B (Aug 1, 2009)

That's all from being over competitive in class man (the tooth thing was when I was 11 and 12 before I even knew what a mouthguard was!).  I've been in precious few fights outside of the dojo, but always manage to keep my composure because my buds and I regularly beat the you know what out of each other.  Call it youthful exuberance or stupidity. Doesn't matter, Iv'e never gotten hit and curled up into a crying ball on the floor like that master in the video.  LOL.


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## FearlessFreep (Aug 1, 2009)

> Here's a great example of not using contact in your training vs using contact in your training.



Wow!  Was that one of those chinese acting/training schools where they teach you to fight for kung fu movies?


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## nelsonkari (Aug 1, 2009)

My sensei was fond of repeating a quote that I believe might have come from the late BL.

"A martial artist needs to be hurt occasionaly and stung frequently in order to keep cool in a kill or get killed situation."

Contact to some degree is required for "street smarts" outside the protective walls of the dojo. Neglect it at your peril.

Nelson Kari


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## Skpotamus (Aug 1, 2009)

FearlessFreep said:


> Wow!  Was that one of those chinese acting/training schools where they teach you to fight for kung fu movies?



That was actually a guy running a "self defense" school in japan that had an open challenge for for anyone willing to fight him, you put up $5k, he would double it if you won.  He claimed to have over 200 challenge match victories.

A little more info on the fight and the guy is here   http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/the-%E2%80%9Cbullshido%E2%80%9D-of-martial-arts-and-no-touch-knockouts/



Deaf, I agree that contact should be done safely, I think training should hurt, but not injure.  But using adequate protective gear (mouthpieces, steel cup, MMA training gloves and headgear)  to prevent injuries should take care of anything serious and most of the minor things too.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 2, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Omar,
> 
> How many street fights have you been in for all that injury?
> 
> ...


 That's kind of the question, really.....how much self-defense do you feel you need.  It's kind of like life insurance policies......some people need more, so they pay more, others feel they need less.  

A lot of it depends on where you live, and most especially, what you do!  A police officer or bouncer is going to need more than the average person (but ironically lots of cops don't get more)........a guy that lives in a nice neighborhood and works in an office?  The biggest benefit to him from martial arts is statistically the exercise that will help ward off high blood pressure, diabetes and heart disease........but then one never knows.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 2, 2009)

Omar B said:


> That's all from being over competitive in class man (the tooth thing was when I was 11 and 12 before I even knew what a mouthguard was!).  I've been in precious few fights outside of the dojo, but always manage to keep my composure because my buds and I regularly beat the you know what out of each other.  Call it youthful exuberance or stupidity. Doesn't matter, Iv'e never gotten hit and curled up into a crying ball on the floor like that master in the video.  LOL.



The more one sweats (and bleeds) in training, the LESS one bleeds on the street.



Or, as was said of the Roman Army........it's maneuvers were (relatively) bloodless battles........and (consequently) it's battles were bloody maneuvers.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 2, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> That was actually a guy running a "self defense" school in japan that had an open challenge for for anyone willing to fight him, you put up $5k, he would double it if you won.  He claimed to have over 200 challenge match victories.
> 
> A little more info on the fight and the guy is here   http://www.dbskeptic.com/2008/05/29/the-%E2%80%9Cbullshido%E2%80%9D-of-martial-arts-and-no-touch-knockouts/


 So all I have to do to win $5,000.00 is knock this old guy out?  I'm assuming the offer is no longer still standing.

I note that they made a big deal of signing the waiver........likely this is part of his psychological intimidation.  He probably included in the waiver that he's not responsible if his 'Death Touch' kills the other guy, and that that is a high degree of likelihood.........a bit of power of suggestion that obviously didn't work!




As pointed out before, it's very interesting how shocked he was at getting punched in the mouth.......as if this was a whole new, unexpected sensation.  A lot of no-contact folks dismiss the effect of this on the street, as if they'll worry about it and overcome it at the moment of truth.......and the result is likely just as we saw with our faux Grand Master here.........shock and awe........and fortunately for him, his opponent gave him a few seconds to overcome (somewhat.....he never overcame it completely) his initially confusion created by getting punched in the mouth.  In fact, his opponent looked like he felt bad about it......'Uh....sorry old man.....you okay?'.

A boxer, Muay Thai fighter or MMA practioner would have never even blinked at getting punched in the mouth like that.......if it didn't cause enough injury to take him out of the fight, they would have shaken it off because they've experienced it and worse before.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 2, 2009)

I can't believe that guy cut his own arm!


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 2, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> That's kind of the question, really.....how much self-defense do you feel you need. It's kind of like life insurance policies......some people need more, so they pay more, others feel they need less.


 
Just don't pay so much you end up as a cripple later. Those Muay Thai fighters are washed up at age 25 on the average. That ain't good.

Yes, train as hard as you can and as often as you can. For me, it's one of my two hobbies. H2H and shooting. Some people like golf, some tennis, I love to work out at a martial art and go to the range. 

And you are right, sarge, about hard training keeps you from bleeding on the battle field.



Skpotamus said:


> Deaf, I agree that contact should be done safely, I think training should hurt, but not injure. But using adequate protective gear (mouthpieces, steel cup, MMA training gloves and headgear) to prevent injuries should take care of anything serious and most of the minor things too.


 
Yes. Still will get the wind knocked out of you now and then, but you will have all your teeth and no marks where wire was used to set your jaw. Back in college we didn't have gloves or cups or anything for protection. Broke my hand and got kicked in the, uh, delicate parts, several times by over-excited yellow and green belts. Black eye to (but that ok, I deserved it.)

Look guys, all I'm saying is, train hard and often, but keep in mind you goal it so be able to injure your opponent alot, but not yourself so much.

Deaf


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## still learning (Aug 3, 2009)

Hello, It is important (full contact)if you are a boxer or kick boxing or MMA fighter...

For most martial artist...partial contact (1/2 or less) should be ok...

IF you do full contact...YOU WILL LOSE STUDENTS....Most do not wish to get beat up at every class...or injury,black eyes,bloody noses anymore...

Sparring is OK..still not the real thing as real fighting....one can learn more with lots of sparring vs...NO or hardly any sparring....

The more REAL your training...the better prepare for the REAL STREETS'

Today...unless you fight alot...than is becomes more important for full contact....the average person...will NOT need to go full contact...

OFF course if you want hard core training...than find a class that goes full contact....some people like this kind of action...

Aloha


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## BLACK LION (Aug 3, 2009)

You do not have to risk injury in order to train... It is much harder to train to injure people and not do it than it is to really injure some one... it is rather easy to hurt people on purpose. 
I believe that training under duress or stress is what is desireable... not being a human meat pulp... as stated above, fighters like that dont last long and once into thier 40s and 50s they will really be sorry. 
You keep your longevity by being smart with your body...dont abuse it cuz you can or later on you will wish you had not. 
This does not mean you cannot experience pain and discomfort in the course of learning as it is natural and necessary to the process but there is no need to put strain on your body that is not going to make you stronger for the long haul... 
This is the very reason I slowed things down and concentrate more on principle elements like using my entire inseam, keeping my back straight and skeleton alligned... going slow and smooth and getting a deliberate target as well as seeing the product of that work and finding a flow in the midst of it all.... 

You can work you muscle and bone to combat efficiency without being a meat pulp... use tact and be smart about your training.  Dont forsake yourself the fruits of a resisting partner either...  I do mean practical resistance...not some dodo that has no business in a preofessional environment.


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## seasoned (Aug 3, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> You do not have to risk injury in order to train... It is much harder to train to injure people and not do it than it is to really injure some one... it is rather easy to hurt people on purpose.
> I believe that training under duress or stress is what is desireable... not being a human meat pulp... as stated above, fighters like that dont last long and once into thier 40s and 50s they will really be sorry.
> You keep your longevity by being smart with your body...dont abuse it cuz you can or later on you will wish you had not.
> This does not mean you cannot experience pain and discomfort in the course of learning as it is natural and necessary to the process but there is no need to put strain on your body that is not going to make you stronger for the long haul...
> ...


I agree whole heartedly with the above.


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## K-man (Aug 5, 2009)

I think there are two issues here. First is the fear or shock of being hit. That fear can be somewhat dissipated by engaging in animated sparring, with appropriate protection, and by conducting 'conditioning' training such as practised by the systema guys. The more solid hits you wear during training the more you realise that the body can absorb an enormous amount of punishment. Obviously conditioning does not protect against a full blooded ko punch to the jaw but it does take away the fear element of being hit.
The second part is far harder to train for in the dojo. In the adrenalin dump situation where someone is rushing at you, intent on putting you into intensive care at the very least, 'conditioning' will not prepare you for this attack. Even full contact sparring has its rules and you know that if you are knocked down you will get back up, eventually. On the street if you go down you may never get up, or you may live the rest of your life as a vegetable, after some lowlife has kicked the stuffing out of your head.
So let's not pretend. Unless you are in the armed forces and experienced close contact fighting, or in the police forces going into situations that are potentially lethal, you will never be prepared for the shock of all out aggression. If you're on the door and someone is acting up, he's not out to kill you, more likely trying to impress his mates with his bravado. The guy in the pub may be aggressive but it is unlikely he will really want to kill you. We can't reproduce the environment of impending death in a dojo.
Most of us train martial arts for fun and fitness, with the added benefit of knowing we can protect ourselves, or our friends and families, in most situations. After training, most of us have to go to work the next day. Very few of us would continue training if we were regularly going home with black eyes, busted ribs, bent noses and gaps in our smile.
So, yes, train with heavy contact, but remember the first rule of self-defence. Try not to be in the situation in the first place! :asian:


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## BLACK LION (Aug 5, 2009)

K-man said:


> So let's not pretend. Unless you are in the armed forces and experienced close contact fighting, or in the police forces going into situations that are potentially lethal, you will never be prepared for the shock of all out aggression.


 
I apologize but I disagree with this statement.


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## Em MacIntosh (Aug 6, 2009)

I personally find it essential but it might just come down to the individual.  I think it's particularly important for timid people to get over their timidity and working your way up from light contact to full contact helps you understand the forces we're dealing with, like how far a kick might throw you or knock you off balance.  As far as eye gouges and knee stomps, wear goggles when training for it.  It's not perfect but it makes it somewhat trainable (it's their screaming/desperate strength they unleash when you rip the eye out or crush it that would be the tough part, IMO, the technique can be rather straightforward).  As far as training the knee stomp, do it very carefully to align the technique but practice stomping a board using the same technique you practice on your partner at full force.  Can't comment on the neck, I don't have any cocnerns about my ability to apply the technique other than the fact that the opponent fights back.  I believe there are some who, for whatever reason, don't need full contact to be effective but strongly suspect that they have some sort of prior fighting experience or have never actually seen their opinion in action.  I can't assert that its necessary but it sure is for me.  All is for not if you can't handle the adrenaline dump in a real situation, IMO, like the knee shakes or lead arms/deer in headlights feeling.

Also, if you want to practice biting, put a potroast in a shirt and bite it savagely


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 6, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Just don't pay so much you end up as a cripple later. Those Muay Thai fighters are washed up at age 25 on the average. That ain't good.
> 
> Yes, train as hard as you can and as often as you can. For me, it's one of my two hobbies. H2H and shooting. Some people like golf, some tennis, I love to work out at a martial art and go to the range.
> 
> And you are right, sarge, about hard training keeps you from bleeding on the battle field.


 Quite right.....one must FIRST ask themselves what exactly they are training for.......and then train accordingly.


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## Martin h (Aug 8, 2009)

You need to hit a resisting opponent to learn HOW to hit a resisting opponent. 
Hitting the bag is not the same. Hitting a resisting opponent lightly is not the same. Timing is wrong and the need to follow up and not stop is not the same

You need to get hit to learn how to get over the chock of being hit hard.
"_Everyone has a plan until_ _they get punched in the mouth_" -Mike Tyson.

The only reason you would not need to be used to fighting while taking serious hits, is if you think you can fight a real fight without getting hit.


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## still learning (Aug 9, 2009)

Hello, To learn to fight for "REAL" ...is to fight for "REAL" 

Army troops train and train.....when in real combat....different world! from training....

This came from a Marine Sergent...Sauda Arbia...his first time in real combat..advance scout unit.

Full contact everyday is NOT necessary....a few times in a life time? ...OK

Aloha, Football players- full contact works...imagine? ..if NOT contact allow! will it be the same?

PS: Grappling arts,Judo etc...very hands on...and close to full contact stuffs for sure!!!


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2009)

Joab said:


> Lousy title, I apologize, but sometimes it is hard to fit an idea into a title. The question really is, how important is full contact training for preparing oneself for self defense? There is a school of thought that I think quite logically states that you need full contact so you get used to taking blows should a self defense emergency arise. There seems to be a concensus that normally when you are attacked you will get hit, hence if you arn't used to taking blows you won't be hardened or tough or prepared enough to take a blow should you be hit when somebody attacks.
> 
> Than there is a school of thought that states that what really works in a self defense emergency is too dangerous for full contact. That to train or spar full contact using techniques that "really work" would result in the practitioners being maimed or killed every class. That would of course be completely unacceptable.
> 
> What do I think? Well, I'm kind of confused to be honest. I think there are merits in both arguements. So I ask those who know more, what do you think?


 
I think it would come down to how you want to train and what you want out of your training.  If you're in it for the purpose of meeting new people or something to do after work, and nothing more, then contact really isn't an issue.

If you're in it to learn to defend yourself, then yes, contact needs to be a part of that training.  Better to get used to it in the dojo, than find out when your life is on the line.  Sijo Emperado (Kajukenbo) had a saying, something along the lines of..."Make pain your friend, so when it comes to visit, it won't be a stranger."  

Now, I believe that when you're new, the contact should gradually be introduced.  In other words, if you're a white belt, there should be either no contact, or very light.  The arts are a contact activity, so IMHO, if someone can't deal with it, then perhaps they should find a new activity.  

I'm not saying that half the class needs to leave on a stretcher or head to the ER afterwards, but my God, once you reach the upper levels, hell yeah, there better be some contact!  

As far as the too dangerous thing goes....lots of things are dangerous.  We dont choke out or break limbs during grappling, every session, but you still train those things.  Pad up and fight or run thru your techs.


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## blindsage (Aug 10, 2009)

Martin h said:


> You need to hit a resisting opponent to learn HOW to hit a resisting opponent.
> Hitting the bag is not the same. Hitting a resisting opponent lightly is not the same. Timing is wrong and the need to follow up and not stop is not the same
> 
> You need to get hit to learn how to get over the chock of being hit hard.
> ...


So you and your sparring partners regularly punch each other in the face full force?


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## Skpotamus (Aug 10, 2009)

blindsage said:


> So you and your sparring partners regularly punch each other in the face full force?



Boxing gyms do it regularly as do mma gyms, they just use protective gear to cut down on injuries.  Why not martial arts schools?  I mean, it's kind of sad that the sport schools train harder  to fight with rules and refereees than  the self defense schools that are supposed to be training to fight without rules, referees, even numbers or against weapons.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 10, 2009)

Throttle control is essential... You may get whacked every now and again but take it and move on... I got hit in the face 2 times during 2 different evolutions yesterday... 1 to the chin which I can still feel and another to the jaw that pinged and went away.  I politely told him that was twice too many and on top of that he was missing his target... I told him to slow down and balance speed with accuracy.  
So, you should expect to get hit but there is no such thing as "full throttle, full contact, full speed" or "full" anything for that matter when it comes to striking targets or you will find more injuries than your HMO/PPO can cover and likewise more lawsuits than you can afford to defend against...   Full force is left for the scumbags that deserve it...that is the easy part of all the hard work training and practicing... the dividends if you will.   
It is much harder to train to injure but NOT to pass that threshold by balancing speed and accuracy than it is to just go full bore into flesh and attempt to pick up the pieces crash after the fact... 
Speed equals fear and if you have to go full speed into your opponent to feel like you are getting somewhere then you are afraid... yes... afraid that the very last thing you did was not good enough.  By adding accuracy and balancing the two...you negate the "need for speed" and to go head on into meat hoping for concrete, long-term integrity... what good is speed without efficiency and consistency...???  If you accurately target and using the essentials agress them efficiently there is no need to blow a hole in your partner... the results will emerge without you forcing them...


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> Boxing gyms do it regularly as do mma gyms, they just use protective gear to cut down on injuries. Why not martial arts schools? I mean, it's kind of sad that the sport schools train harder to fight with rules and refereees than the self defense schools that are supposed to be training to fight without rules, referees, even numbers or against weapons.


 

QFT!!  For me, some days are lighter than others, but nonetheless, there is still contact!


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## BLACK LION (Aug 10, 2009)

MJS said:


> QFT!! For me, some days are lighter than others, but nonetheless, there is still contact!


 I agree 100%


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## BLACK LION (Aug 10, 2009)

You can still injure a person wearing pads or gloves or protection... I think far too often people think they cant injure or be injured becuase they are wearing some form of "protection"...  
I think people often rely on "protection" becuase they lack a certain level of throttle control and in turn lack a certain level of trust in thier partner.... the mutual agreement/contract is missing.   
I am not saying to scrap the whole "protection" bit... I am just saying that people should make sure that thier shyt is straight and there is an understanding of things so you are not just throwing protection on so you can bounce off of someone as hard as you can... I am also saying that just becuase there is protection...balancing speed and accuracy is of no less importance...  
Protection is there to mitigate blunt force trauma but its a secondary safety precaution next to the primary which is the person....same as a guns safety is secondary to the operators brain and trigger finger... 

excuse the rant....


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## Skpotamus (Aug 10, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> You can still injure a person wearing pads or gloves or protection... I think far too often people think they cant injure or be injured becuase they are wearing some form of "protection"...
> I think people often rely on "protection" becuase they lack a certain level of throttle control and in turn lack a certain level of trust in thier partner.... the mutual agreement/contract is missing.
> I am not saying to scrap the whole "protection" bit... I am just saying that people should make sure that thier shyt is straight and there is an understanding of things so you are not just throwing protection on so you can bounce off of someone as hard as you can... I am also saying that just becuase there is protection...balancing speed and accuracy is of no less importance...
> Protection is there to mitigate blunt force trauma but its a secondary safety precaution next to the primary which is the person....same as a guns safety is secondary to the operators brain and trigger finger...
> ...




I don't mind the rant at all, you put forth your point in a logical manner without being offensive in the slightest.  

I agree that you have to use good technique when you train, otherwise you're just flailing.  But the intent to make contact and some contact should occur at every level of training, the power should be modulated for new techniques, new students and your "off" days.  Then again, some days you just gotta go out there and bang a little bit.  

I just find it ironic that the "sport" schools that commonly get looked down upon by "self defense" instructors use better training methods to instill skill and confidence in their students than most self defense instructors.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 11, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> I don't mind the rant at all, you put forth your point in a logical manner without being offensive in the slightest.
> 
> I agree that you have to use good technique when you train, otherwise you're just flailing. But the intent to make contact and some contact should occur at every level of training, the power should be modulated for new techniques, new students and your "off" days. Then again, some days you just gotta go out there and bang a little bit.
> 
> I just find it ironic that the "sport" schools that commonly get looked down upon by "self defense" instructors use better training methods to instill skill and confidence in their students than most self defense instructors.


 I definately agree....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 12, 2009)

BLACK LION said:


> You do not have to risk injury in order to train... It is much harder to train to injure people and not do it than it is to really injure some one... it is rather easy to hurt people on purpose.
> I believe that training under duress or stress is what is desireable... not being a human meat pulp... as stated above, fighters like that dont last long and once into thier 40s and 50s they will really be sorry.
> You keep your longevity by being smart with your body...dont abuse it cuz you can or later on you will wish you had not.
> This does not mean you cannot experience pain and discomfort in the course of learning as it is natural and necessary to the process but there is no need to put strain on your body that is not going to make you stronger for the long haul...
> ...


I was going to respond, but BL pretty much nails it with this one, so I will just go with his answer.

Daniel


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## blindsage (Aug 12, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> Boxing gyms do it regularly as do mma gyms, they just use protective gear to cut down on injuries. Why not martial arts schools? I mean, it's kind of sad that the sport schools train harder to fight with rules and refereees than the self defense schools that are supposed to be training to fight without rules, referees, even numbers or against weapons.


No, they don't. Very few fighters train full contact. They train light to medium contact, because even with protective gear, the injury incidence of full contact training would prevent a lot of their fighters from making their competitive matches. 

And specifically I asked Martin h if him and his sparring partners do because it appears that he trains Kyokushin, which doesn't generally use protective gear, and doesn't generally punch to the head no matter how hard they punch to the rest of the body.


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## Skpotamus (Aug 13, 2009)

blindsage said:


> No, they don't. Very few fighters train full contact. They train light to medium contact, because even with protective gear, the injury incidence of full contact training would prevent a lot of their fighters from making their competitive matches.
> 
> And specifically I asked Martin h if him and his sparring partners do because it appears that he trains Kyokushin, which doesn't generally use protective gear, and doesn't generally punch to the head no matter how hard they punch to the rest of the body.



Every gym I've ever trained at does.  They put on thick headgear and 16 oz gloves.  The thai gyms would put on the heavy shin pads as did most of the MMA gyms.  Now, I didn't say they did it all the time, as I said, we'd cycle our training.  Skill based classes would be light to medium contact at first to build up skill.  General sparring was generally medium, depending on what you were trying to accomplish.  But sometimes you'd pad up heavy and bang.  How often would vary from person to person, but usually once every two or three weeks we'd go hard.  Some of the guys would spar hard pretty much every chance they got.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 13, 2009)

> No, they don't. Very few fighters train full contact. They train light to medium contact, because even with protective gear, the injury incidence of full contact training would prevent a lot of their fighters from making their competitive matches.


 


> Every gym I've ever trained at does.


 
I wonder if there's some discrepancy in the definition of "full contact". What a pro boxer would consider "light-to-medium" contact is what most folks would consider very hard contact.

My experience with full-contact fighters (boxing/muay thai/MMA) is that when sparring with boxing gloves they will let the punches fly and hit hard, but they won't be putting everything they have into trying to knock their sparring partner out the way they would in actual competition. I guess it's a matter of interpretation whether you consider that to be truly "full-contact".


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## BLACK LION (Aug 13, 2009)

Muay thai in these mma gyms as of late seems to be more agressive in thier sparring... And it looks to be full bore during thier sessions... This may have a lot to do with the fact that they compete overseas in Thailand where they are hard to the core with thier training and that includes full contact "sparring"...  

Then again...as stated above, it seems that the perception of what full contact is, differs from person to person...


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## blindsage (Aug 13, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> Every gym I've ever trained at does. They put on thick headgear and 16 oz gloves. The thai gyms would put on the heavy shin pads as did most of the MMA gyms. Now, I didn't say they did it all the time, as I said, we'd cycle our training. Skill based classes would be light to medium contact at first to build up skill. General sparring was generally medium, depending on what you were trying to accomplish. But sometimes you'd pad up heavy and bang. How often would vary from person to person, but usually once every two or three weeks we'd go hard. Some of the guys would spar hard pretty much every chance they got.


They bang like they would in an actual match?  I've rarely seen this.  Full-contact to me means just that, and coming from a Kyokushin background, it doesn't mean pads.  If you're padding up heavy, how is that full contact?  

I'm not saying _I_ think there should never be padding, or that people should punch each other in the face with bare fists during regular training, but I do think people should be realistic about what they consider 'full contact'.  And keep those limitations in mind when their talking about contact training and it's importance.   Very, very few (if any) of us spar full force with no pads and no target restrictions, for good reasons.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 14, 2009)

blindsage said:


> They bang like they would in an actual match? I've rarely seen this. Full-contact to me means just that, and coming from a Kyokushin background, it doesn't mean pads. If you're padding up heavy, how is that full contact?


This is one of those areas where full contact is relative.  WTF sparring, for example, is classified as continuous and full contact.  The participants are all padded up, so the recipient of a blow does not receive a full contact blow, but the blow can be _delivered up to and including_ full contact on the part of the attacker.

Daniel


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## MJS (Aug 14, 2009)

I agree with the member who said that there may be some confusion on what full contact is defined as.  The OP should come back to this thread and clarify, as that would take some of the tension off this thread.

Now, full contact:

1) This could mean nothing other than a mouth piece and groin protection.  Full power shots to the face and body.

2) This could mean dressing up in a redman suit, or something similar, and the other person just going off on the padded man.

3) This could mean both people in headgear and gloves, of any size, ie: boxing gloves, karate sparring foam rubber type gloves, MMA gloves, and pounding away at each other.

4) Same as #3, but the contact is med. to heavy, not quite full.

My version is going to be different from the next guy and the next, etc., etc. etc.  

When I spar, I normally wear headgear.  My 9-5 job isn't fighting, so I can't afford to be out of work due to martial arts related injury.  I wear gloves, usually something like this.  MMA gloves have been worn.  Contact will vary depending on what the goal of the day is.  In other words, are we just sparring, are we focusing on a particular technique, ie: combos, bob/weave, etc.  I do the majority of sparring/boxing, with my teacher during my private lesson, so we do not do the typical karate type sparring.  The matches will vary in time, usually starting off with some light, 1min rounds, and moving up to 2-3 min with heavier contact.  Heavier contact meaning there have been a few times when I've been hit and it was close to a KO.  I needed to stop for a few to get my land legs back.  

To each his own.  Personally, I think that the contact should vary.  I say this because its good to give the body a rest.


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## Skpotamus (Aug 14, 2009)

blindsage said:


> They bang like they would in an actual match?  I've rarely seen this.  Full-contact to me means just that, and coming from a Kyokushin background, it doesn't mean pads.  If you're padding up heavy, how is that full contact?
> 
> I'm not saying _I_ think there should never be padding, or that people should punch each other in the face with bare fists during regular training, but I do think people should be realistic about what they consider 'full contact'.  And keep those limitations in mind when their talking about contact training and it's importance.   Very, very few (if any) of us spar full force with no pads and no target restrictions, for good reasons.



No offense, but you don't have a boxing or muay thai background, so you have no idea what the training is like.  I studied kyokushin for a while (just under one year), and the contact used at that school during "hard" sparring was on the level of the boxing and kickboxing gyms light contact during skill development drills.  It was nowhere near the level of power used during pad training.  At the muay thai and boxing gyms, you worked the pads the same way you sparred for the most part.   I left because I didn't like the styles lack of realism in their training (no head punching, no real evasion or defense tactics, the sparring was essentially stand and trade until one person fell down).  

As I said before, my boxing gym would vary the sparring contact from skill development (medium contact), to all out sparring (full power).  The average sparring session there you'd get your bell rung and knockdowns were common.  My muay thai gym did the same with the same level of contact.  On top of that, the Thai gym would have "smokers" every month or two.  A smoker is an in-gym fight between people.  They'd put knee and elbow pads, full headgear, shin pads and 16oz gloves on us, we'd fight for real, going for the KO, which happened pretty frequently.  

These weren't hobby gyms, they were cranking out fighters, who train at another level than the non fighters at karate dojos for the most part.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VnkAp9yW5o&feature=related  this is about how the sparring in my kyokushin school went, which is significantly lighter than I was used to in MT or boxing, 

YMMV


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 15, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VnkAp9yW5o&feature=related  this is about how the sparring in my kyokushin school went, which is significantly lighter than I was used to in MT or boxing,
> 
> YMMV


 I spar with my 6 year old daughter harder than that.


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## Hudson69 (Aug 15, 2009)

I think it is important to have some type of sparring if the art you are learning is going to be used for self defense.  It helps with timing, it helps reinforce good fighting habits (don't lead with your chin and keep your guard up come to mind), it shows how physically draining a fight can be, under controlled circumstances, and it shows how it feels to take a punch or kick and how it feels give back.

I understand that sparring is not "real" fighting but it is as close as you can get without the real thing.  

I have run into an instructor who literally stated "these moves are too dangerous" and I will agree that there are some techniques that should be shown and not practiced (at anywhere near combat speed anyway) but when it comes to seeing how good you are at throwing punches and kicks or trying a technique on a moving resisting partner, well this is where sparring shows its real value.

If you want try something really fun get your school to contact another school (on only the best of terms of course) where that school has a different focus; if you are a stand up fighter (karate, gung fu, krav,....) then find a juijutsu school and cross spar/train and see how you do against someone you have never met who has never been indoctrinated into your way of thinking.  It takes every precaution to ensure safety but what an eye-opening way to have some fun, make friends and test yourself and your system.


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## blindsage (Aug 17, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> No offense, but you don't have a boxing or muay thai background, so you have no idea what the training is like. I studied kyokushin for a while (just under one year), and the contact used at that school during "hard" sparring was on the level of the boxing and kickboxing gyms light contact during skill development drills. It was nowhere near the level of power used during pad training. At the muay thai and boxing gyms, you worked the pads the same way you sparred for the most part. I left because I didn't like the styles lack of realism in their training (no head punching, no real evasion or defense tactics, the sparring was essentially stand and trade until one person fell down).
> 
> As I said before, my boxing gym would vary the sparring contact from skill development (medium contact), to all out sparring (full power). The average sparring session there you'd get your bell rung and knockdowns were common. My muay thai gym did the same with the same level of contact. On top of that, the Thai gym would have "smokers" every month or two. A smoker is an in-gym fight between people. They'd put knee and elbow pads, full headgear, shin pads and 16oz gloves on us, we'd fight for real, going for the KO, which happened pretty frequently.
> 
> ...


No offense taken, especially since your incorrect. That Kyokushin sparring video is pretty much a skills development level of sparring. If that was the extent of the sparring at your school, I'm not suprised you left. But I do find it comical that you would consider that experience as undermining the well deserved reputation of Kyokushin fighters. Implying that Kyokushin dojos are hobby gyms that don't crank out fighters is more comedy. And if you'll notice, I'm quite aware of the limitations that do exist in Kyokushin sparring, since I blatantly called someone else on it earlier in this thread. And if you thought the evasion and defense tactics were missing, maybe you should have checked out an Enshin (much closer to my training), or Ashihara, or Seido school, that's why they branched off as well.

What I find strange is the notion that your 'smokers' at a _Thai_ gym fighting for real includes head gear, knee and elbow pads, shin pads and calling that full contact. When do Thai fighters in the ring fight with that kind of protection? 

_*Again*, _I'm not saying I think pads should never be worn. I'm not saying full contact should be done all the time. What I am saying is, like MJS noted, there are different ideas of full contact sparring, and we should keep that in mind when discussing it. Most of us are not sparring by this standard


> 1) This could mean nothing other than a mouth piece and groin protection. Full power shots to the face and body.


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## BLACK LION (Aug 17, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I spar with my 6 year old daughter harder than that.


 
hahahahahahahaaa 

My 2 year old is rediculous becuase she has no concept of full contact... she just puts her all into everything to the point that I have to really watch myself to keep from getting hurt becuase she knows all the right places....


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