# Gross Motor Skills



## Seeker (Mar 15, 2009)

It's been sited many times and in many places that when a real life encounter kicks off and you're under duress the best you can hope for is being able to perform gross motor skills. 

If you were streamlining your WC purely for self protection, what WC skills would you focus on that could be successfully performed under such circumstances, i.e. when fine motor skills go out the window?


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## dnovice (Mar 15, 2009)

The most basic: Pak and punch (pak da)


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## seasoned (Mar 15, 2009)

Deep breathing, before, during, and after. Also focusing the mind, as the mind will have a tendency to over react, or in some cases freeze up. Fight the way you train, every style or art teaches a calm mind and controlling the breath.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 16, 2009)

GOOD clinchwork. In a pressurized situation where an opponent goes to grab you, you will have the advantage due to your short range training. Use it

Work your ability to stick with your opponent and use your striking to do the rest

I can't tell you how much clinchwork has saved me in dangerous encounters.


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## qwksilver61 (Mar 17, 2009)

My answer to that one is what I have always believed, it should be a reflex response....oddly without thinking it just happens,and not about what technique I am about to deliver....back to the guy driving the car that reacts.....and doesn't think when he/she is about to collide with another object.Two cents.....


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## Ben Grimm (Mar 18, 2009)

I usually use Taan Da.


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## KamonGuy2 (Mar 18, 2009)

Ben Grimm said:


> I usually use Taan Da.


 
Think about a pressurised situation though. When a person is ripping at you and trying to crush you. Do you really think taan da will work? Seriously?


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Mar 18, 2009)

> Think about a pressurised situation though. When a person is ripping at you and trying to crush you. Do you really think taan da will work? Seriously?


 
I agree with your point. Training with people from other martial backgrounds in a sparring-like enviroment was a big eye opener for me. It showed me that pre-arranged techniques of any kind are more or less useless when training with an agresive uncomplaient partner when everything goes.



> It's been sited many times and in many places that when a real life encounter kicks off and you're under duress the best you can hope for is being able to perform gross motor skills.
> 
> If you were streamlining your WC purely for self protection, what WC skills would you focus on that could be successfully performed under such circumstances, i.e. when fine motor skills go out the window?


 
I would suggest sparring and trying out with as many diffrent people and as realistcly as possible and finding out what works and what not for yourself. I like those EBMAS gloves becouse you can stll grab with them and they aren't that big. Some skills you could work on are structure, sensitevety and reflexes. All of them are very usefull in real situations. A good training method for those would be Chi Sao.

You are right that under pressure you will never react as good as in a safe enviroment like a gym. The only thing you can do about it is train. The more you'll train the more this skills you train will be embedded in you and the better you get more confidence you will have. With confidence in you ability you can also control fear and panic better.


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## punisher73 (Mar 19, 2009)

Seeker said:


> It's been sited many times and in many places that when a real life encounter kicks off and you're under duress the best you can hope for is being able to perform gross motor skills.
> 
> If you were streamlining your WC purely for self protection, what WC skills would you focus on that could be successfully performed under such circumstances, i.e. when fine motor skills go out the window?


 

 Fine motor skills go out the window ONLY when they have not been properly trained for them to be an unconscious response.  I don't have it handy right now, but they have done tests with soldiers and activities that were classified as "fine motor" did not degrade under adrenaline/stress when it had been properly trained, but did with newer skills.

The point is, train your bread and butter technqiues and then start to add the others to your toolbox.  Don't just limit yourself, or "streamline it" and limit yourself to your full potential.


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## geezer (Mar 19, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Fine motor skills go out the window ONLY when they have not been properly trained for them to be an unconscious response.  I don't have it handy right now, but *they have done tests with soldiers and activities that were classified as "fine motor" did not degrade under adrenaline/stress when it had been properly trained*, but did with newer skills.
> 
> The point is, train your bread and butter technqiues and then start to add the others to your toolbox.  Don't just limit yourself, or "streamline it" and limit yourself to your full potential.



If you come across your source, it would be great if you posted it. I wonder if the particular kind of stress affects your response. I find I tend to react a bit more strongly and tense up in that instant when I realize that I have just failed to block a shot and it is about to take my head off! Applied to WC/WT this means that when surprised by a _real_ threat, I get stiff for a second and don't flow as well as in practice. Sparring helps by getting you accustomed to shots, but facing a life or death physical confrontation takes it to a whole different level.


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## Seeker (Mar 19, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Fine motor skills go out the window ONLY when they have not been properly trained for them to be an unconscious response.  I don't have it handy right now, but they have done tests with soldiers and activities that were classified as "fine motor" did not degrade under adrenaline/stress when it had been properly trained, but did with newer skills.
> 
> The point is, train your bread and butter technqiues and then start to add the others to your toolbox.  Don't just limit yourself, or "streamline it" and limit yourself to your full potential.



I think I have found an article contrary to your article. 
Apparently.

http://www.gsgi.biz/id67.html

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]*Stress and Motor Skill Performance* 

    The study of skill execution and stress can be traced back to the Civil War, Researchers noted in the late 1800's that as combat/survival stress increased, men lost the ability to perform accuracy skills (precision shooting) and the ability to conduct complex tasks quickly (reloading). 
                                       As research methods and technologies have advanced, scientists found that physical or mental stress react differently on different types of motor skills. Researchers began to classify motor skills on a progressive continuum from fine to gross, according to muscle size, task complexity, task effort/fatigue, and how levels of stress affect performance by monitoring escalating heart rates (Cratty, 1973). 
    Scientists continued to refine their research and found that SNS activation triggered the deterioration of fine and complex motor skills. Today, motor skills are divided into the following three basic Classifications:


 _Gross motor skills_; are skills that involve the action of large muscle or major muscle groups. An example of a survival gross motor skill would be simple actions such as straight punch, a forward baton strike or the Isosceles shooting stance. Generally, gross motor skills are simple strength skills or skills involving simple symmetrical movements.
 _Fine motor skills_; are skills that require hand/ eye coordination and hand dexterity. In the survival skill category, a fine motor skill would include any action that requires precision hand eye coordination, such as precision shooting with a firearm.
 _Complex motor skills_; /are skills that involve a series of muscle groups in movements requiring hand/eye coordination, precision, tracking and timing. Survival skills that are complex would include shooting stances that have muscle groups working in different or asymmetrical movements (Weaver), or a takedown that has more than multiple independent components.
            By using escalating heart rates as a medium to chart performance, scientists found that high or even moderate levels of stress interfere with fine muscular control and decision-making. In contrast, motor skills dominated by large muscle groups that have minimal fine motor control and very little decision-making or cognitive complexity, are not affected by high levels of stress. Studies have also found that fine motor skills deteriorate at 115 BPM; complex motor skills deteriorate at 145 RPM, while gross motor skills were performed optimally at higher levels of stress. 


Oh, this part is interesting too.


[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]At high level SNS activation (such as in the case of a SNS mass discharge), investigators can expect to see a complete deterioration of all fine and complex motor skills. *Agent's actions will be reduced to simple gross movements, such as grappling, clubbing, the use of strangulation techniques,* as well as firing an inordinate number of rounds at a perceived threat. _All of the latter are typically untrained actions and can be normally traced to the agent being at a heightened state of fear. 
[/FONT]
[/FONT]


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## Seeker (Mar 19, 2009)

Basically, what I was shooting for... what would be the "high percentage" type techniques or actions? The basics. Bong sau comes very naturally, pak sau too.


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## Sandstorm (Mar 20, 2009)

I really don't think you can be specific as to which techniques you would use instinctively in a street confrontation. There are far too many variables. 
As a general rule, I believe that there are generally two types of person that respond to such an attack. One is the *thinker*, and one is the *doer.*
The thinker is the one who over annalyses the situation and tries to calculate their response to any given incident. This then could lead to panic and eventual breakdown. The thinker is the one who has trained the same scenario multiple times in multiple ways.
The Doer is the one who just reacts. They have maintained a certain level of competance and kept their strategies in the dojo simple and direct. We all have basic defence skills built into us in the form of self preservation instinctive techniques such as flailing punches and strangulation/basic gripping/grappling. The sort of stuff we all did as kids. Our natural reaction _can_ alter slightly thanks to simple training movements done repeatedly and systematically. Anything overly complex will just be wasted.

As to how any of the above may react, this also depends hugely on the scenario presented. For instance, someone who has just found out their mother has passed away is going to have a completely different psychological mindset than someone who has just bought the winning lottery ticket. How would each of these react to a knife-wielding mugger? 

It's no simple task trying to decifer what would/wouldn't or should/shouldn't work. You can train over and over again the same drills for the same situation and still you may react completely differently in the street. 
Also, I really don't think using the military as a basis for this is a sound one, as the mindset of someone who even signs up for the military is going to be completely different to that of a civvy 9-5 office worker.

Just my opinion.
Interesting subject.


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## Ben Grimm (Mar 20, 2009)

Don't get me wrong. It's not my favourite or my bread and butter technique. But it's been there when I've needed it.


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## geezer (Mar 20, 2009)

Seeker said:


> Basically, what I was shooting for... what would be the "high percentage" type techniques or actions? The basics. Bong sau comes very naturally, pak sau too.



Interesting. Both of these are defensive, reactive techniques. In self-defense scenarios, I favor taking the offense _if possible._ For example,_ punch the guy!_


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## koenig (Mar 20, 2009)

dnovice said:


> The most basic: Pak and punch (pak da)



I was going to say this.


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## koenig (Mar 20, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Fine motor skills go out the window ONLY when they have not been properly trained for them to be an unconscious response.  I don't have it handy right now, but they have done tests with soldiers and activities that were classified as "fine motor" did not degrade under adrenaline/stress when it had been properly trained, but did with newer skills.



I'd be interesting in seeing that study.  Based on everything I've heard and experienced, adrenaline dump = no fine motor skills.

I'd be interested in seeing the conditions of the test, too.  You cannot simulate adrenaline.  Have someone try to kill them and see if they can use fine motor skills... that's not a very safe test, tho.


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## punisher73 (Mar 23, 2009)

koenig said:


> I'd be interesting in seeing that study. Based on everything I've heard and experienced, adrenaline dump = no fine motor skills.
> 
> I'd be interested in seeing the conditions of the test, too. You cannot simulate adrenaline. Have someone try to kill them and see if they can use fine motor skills... that's not a very safe test, tho.


 
It was a military study, I am trying to find the exact one.  It was briefed to us in my instructor's course for PPCT.  Here is an article that talks about the same thing from Lt. Grossman.  That once you put the skill into the unconscious it is not effected as an unpracticed skill.
http://www.ocsportsea.com/political pics/information/Grossman 2 In order to survive.pdf

Think about it, it sounds good on paper to say that you lose fine motor skills, but think about how much in military and police requires fine motor skills (hand cuffing, magazine changes, misfeeds etc. not even getting into pilots and what they do) and they are still able to perform.  Why?  They do HIGH repititions and also use stress innoculation to get used to the feeling.  How many people _really _get that pumped up in a sparring session vs. a real fight?  Most of the time, the person has faced that amount of stress in their sparring as a real situation and thus the loss of skills.


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## Ben Grimm (Mar 24, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> It was a military study, I am trying to find the exact one. It was briefed to us in my instructor's course for PPCT. Here is an article that talks about the same thing from Lt. Grossman. That once you put the skill into the unconscious it is not effected as an unpracticed skill.
> http://www.ocsportsea.com/political pics/information/Grossman 2 In order to survive.pdf
> 
> Think about it, it sounds good on paper to say that you lose fine motor skills, but think about how much in military and police requires fine motor skills (hand cuffing, magazine changes, misfeeds etc. not even getting into pilots and what they do) and they are still able to perform. Why? They do HIGH repititions and also use stress innoculation to get used to the feeling. How many people _really _get that pumped up in a sparring session vs. a real fight? Most of the time, the person has faced that amount of stress in their sparring as a real situation and thus the loss of skills.


 
Exactly. You need to perform thousands of repetitions under stress otherwise it all comes apart when you really need your skills.


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## Seeker (Mar 27, 2009)

geezer said:


> Interesting. Both of these are defensive, reactive techniques. In self-defense scenarios, I favor taking the offense _if possible._ For example,_ punch the guy!_



I like the way you think Sir, and I agree on preempting. I just threw those out there becuase as far as WC movements go, for me they have a higher success rate... well in chi sau at least.

Okay, here's an example of loss of fine motor skill and not so fine when life hits you.

As you are approaching the front door to your house you hear something running toward you. 

You turn to note the neighbors 175 pound slobbering, growling rottweiler coming right at you... suddenly opening a door has become the most difficult task imaginable. 

And it is something you do everyday. But I'll be damned if you haven't instantly perfected the arts of turning a knob both clockwise and counter.. and pushing and pulling all at the same time as your are trying to get behind that door to escape Bruno.


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