# Learning better WC/WT from other styles...



## geezer (Jul 15, 2009)

On another thread, _Seasoned_ pointed out how many of the basic concepts of combat are shared by many martial arts, including WC/WT. I responded that it depends a lot on the martial art in question. Many core concepts are shared, but often there are huge differences, even contradictions even at the most basic levels... in how to stand, root, move, generate power, and so forth. But that either way, comparisons between approaches can be very useful. They help you understand yourself and your opponent better.

I then added that in addition to Wing Tsun, I train with a guy that teaches a composite, FMA based art called DTE. He also coaches MMA fighters, and interestingly once trained WT under me way back in the mid '80s. Anyway, this guy is really talented and has what I call a "coaches eye". He can really spot problem areas and help people work them out _using what works for them_. Sometimes in his FMA class when we drop the sticks and work empty hands, he'll ask me to use my WT. Often he can give me insights from his broad experience in other styles that helps me become _more efficient and effective._ I laugh and say that if he can make me more efficient, he's teaching_ me _WT... even if that isn't his style.

So here's my question. Do you feel you can make your WC/WT better by being exposed to other systems? And, have you ever learned things in other styles that has helped your WC/WT? Or do you think that such an approach will just water down and pollute your technique?


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 15, 2009)

Normally I like to let threads mature a little before I respond, but what the hell. Sometimes I enjoy making people hate me.

Cuong Nhu (this has been covered before) is a hybrid style, including Wing Chun, and 6 other styles. When Cuong Nhu guys do Chi Sao, it is very common (atleast in my school) for it end in a wrist lock from Aikido. Sometimes we add various strikes from Shotokan. One time i was on the receiving end of a hip throw (no mats were layed down, so I was slowly lowered to the ground).

More later.


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## mook jong man (Jul 15, 2009)

I don't think the things that I have done have helped my Wing Chun at all.
For me the only thing that does that is training in Wing Chun.

But what they have done is given me more options , so instead of smashing someones face in I can do something a little less brutal like a take down or a choke etc.


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## Tensei85 (Jul 15, 2009)

For me its not so much that training other systems or gathering input from other systems have made my Wing Chun better. But however it has given me a wider and more complete perspective of whats out there. In other words I really didn't understand what I was lacking in certain departments (again "what I was lacking" not the system) til I started sparring and drilling with other schools of CMA, JMA, even BJJ or MT, then I started understanding what I needed to change up and how to become a better Wing Chun pract or just Martial Artist in general. An example in the Wing Chun that I study we have a stance that is called Leung Yi Ma it's kinda "yi ji keum ying ma" but faced off at an angle. Then there is another stance called Bun Yi Ma which is kinda the same as a "Bik Ma" just changed up a bit. But in my personal take on these stances I didn't realize that I was leaving certain area's of my body vertually unprotected, but do to the Wing Chun guys I was facing they never took advantage of it. But when I matched up with a CLF and a Mantis guy they did however, so I realized because I went out of my comfort zone some of the idealogy that other M.A.'s train or utilize. And that knowlege however did help to make my Wing Chun fuller. 

So to summarize I would say that the answers are in the system, but its up to the practitioner to not only find them but to train them. (to experiment with them and integrate it)

Just my take.


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## geezer (Jul 15, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I don't think the things that I have done have helped my Wing Chun at all.
> For me the only thing that does that is training in Wing Chun.



Have you ever worked with another stylist who was able to really exploit one of your weaknesses? _That's_ what I'm talking about. Then you go back to your basics and fix the problem. I'm not talking about abandoning a WT/WC approach, just tweaking it so you can better handle what people throw at you. 

On the other hand, sometimes the guy I referred to above will suggest solutions that are not compatible with the WT system. I don't always take his advice. Instead try to find a solution _within_ the WT/WC system. Fortunately, there's a lot more in WT/WC than is commonly believed. And there's a lot I've yet to learn!


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## jarrod (Jul 15, 2009)

i can't think of any style that hasn't improved by being exposed to other styles.

jf


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## seasoned (Jul 15, 2009)

geezer said:


> On another thread, _Seasoned_ pointed out how many of the basic concepts of combat are shared by many martial arts, including WC/WT. I responded that it depends a lot on the martial art in question. Many core concepts are shared, but often there are huge differences, even contradictions even at the most basic levels... in how to stand, root, move, generate power, and so forth. But that either way, comparisons between approaches can be very useful. They help you understand yourself and your opponent better.
> 
> I then added that in addition to Wing Tsun, I train with a guy that teaches a composite, FMA based art called DTE. He also coaches MMA fighters, and interestingly once trained WT under me way back in the mid '80s. Anyway, this guy is really talented and has what I call a "coaches eye". He can really spot problem areas and help people work them out _using what works for them_. Sometimes in his FMA class when we drop the sticks and work empty hands, he'll ask me to use my WT. Often he can give me insights from his broad experience in other styles that helps me become _more efficient and effective._ I laugh and say that if he can make me more efficient, he's teaching_ me _WT... even if that isn't his style.
> 
> So here's my question. *Do you feel you can make your WC/WT better by being exposed to other systems?* And, have you ever learned things in other styles that has helped your WC/WT? Or do you think that such an approach will just water down and pollute your technique?


You guys probably feel the same as I do, being exposed to other styles did not make my Okinawan GoJu better, but it opened my eyes, and gave me a better understanding of myself, and a deeper understanding of my art. I don't know much about wc, but if I were to train with you guys, I'm sure we would find a lot of similarities. The two styles that have enhanced my GoJu the most are Shaolin White Crane, and Tai Chi. Even thou I have trained many years in GoJu, it was the influence of these two arts that gave me much insight into my own art. What I have found is we call principles and techniques my different names but they produce the same feeling, that is why I said that if we trained together, we would fine a lot of similarities. Chojun Miyagi the founder of GoJu (hard-solf) trained many years in China before returning to Okinawa to combine what he learned in China with what he already had.


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 16, 2009)

Ditto to *seasoned* and *Tensei85* 's responses.  My core art is Wing Chun, but in the WCAUSA, we are required to cross-train on some other arts, like Muay Thai, Kali, and BJJ.  It really helps my WC because it helps me to understand how those practitioners think and the wayththose arts go about combat.  It opens my eyes to their possibilities, so it helps me to work my WC with arts other than WC.


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 19, 2009)

I the past I would encourage my group to study as much about other styles as they could...read,reflect,discect ,visit schools of Martial art.I believe because Wing Tsun is so effective that it is possible to break down other systems,especially those systems that over commit.I do believe that a person could benefit from the ground fighting systems.Two cents....


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## profesormental (Jul 21, 2009)

In short, my Wing Chun has improved DRAMATICALLY from my studies of American Kenpo. And my Kenpo has improved DRAMATICALLY from my studies in Wing Chun.

Every training method has specialty skills it ingrains yet the systematic approaches of AK and the Sophisticated Simplicity of Wing Chun compliment each other synergistically.

So yep, it helps.

Juan M. Mercado


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 25, 2009)

easy.....stick to WT or something else....c'mon..i for one do not believe otherwise.otherwise go there......create you're own sheeeot period !and do not call it WT!enhanced/ improve to what extent? c'mon physic's majors' my chun what? wing dung who? yea...80's buzzed so what!


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## geezer (Jul 26, 2009)

qwksilver61 said:


> easy.....stick to WT or something else....c'mon..i for one do not believe otherwise.otherwise go there......create you're own sheeeot period !and do not call it WT!enhanced/ improve to what extent? c'mon physic's majors' my chun what? wing dung who? yea...80's buzzed so what!



_Qwick_, you totally lost me with this comment. Not to slight your input or anything, but it's almost like you were channelling Jar-Jar Binks or something! It sounds like you're saying that good 'Chun doesn't _need_ anything else. I don't disagree. I guess I'm just saying that when I work with some other guys and mess up, it really helps me focus on where I strayed from my core WT concepts.

For example, a couple of weeks back, my FMA instructor was uprooting my stance. he then showed me how I was not really directing my force through his center. I was getting sloppy and with this guy, you don't have to be off much for him to exploit it. His comment made me realize, that my problem _wasn't_ because WT is weak... but because _I wasn't doing good WT_. If someone shows you where you are weak, I'd say that they are teaching you something.

As for what FMA has to do with WT?  Well, I try to use as much of my WT as possible in whatever style I'm working. Efficiency, simplicity, forward pressure, centerline targeting... these things are universal. I guess what it boils down to is the idea that you can effectively apply the principles of WT to almost anything... other "styles", other sports, and other areas of life. It's something GM Leung taught. The trick is, that there are some areas of life that should not be approached that way. Marriage, for example. Although being flexible and 'yielding' in a confrontation is very important... But I digress.


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 27, 2009)

My sincere apologies everyone.....it's called falling off the wagon after 6 mos. sobriety....don't worry wifey gave me a good beat down....I'll shoot for another 6 mos.may be a year or two......temptation around every corner I tell ya..(I never said I was a pope either
(I wasn't thinking Jar Jar Binks...more like a combo of WC Fields & Bozo on LSD!)
Thank you for being the gentleman that you are sir.


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## Si-Je (Jul 27, 2009)

Man! you always ask the hard questions! lol! love ya!
Personally, I took many other styles before I got to train WC/WT.
Here's the deal as far as I can figure.
Most styles focus on strength, no matter what they claim. because even TKD claims that they don't use strength. It's just false.
WC/WT takes a different approach akin to the approach of Aikido, even Judo (in a stretched conceptual way. lol) and the philipino MA are very close in their fighting concepts. (I always wanted to learn Kali and Penjack silat)
but, yes., those stlyes are very similar in their concepts. When you learn to fight with short range sticks/swords/machettes, your learning a "knife art" for close quarters combat. now, when you let go the sticks or knives and do open hand combat your even closer. So, your consepts for fighting are going to be almost the same.
I.E. when you weild a stick or sword or knife your stance will be a bit longer/deeper than if your fighting empty handed WT/WC style. And that's just because you want to use the full extent of the reach of the weapon.

I think it's good to train and spar with other styles (friendly of course) to test your range of knowledge of WC/WT and finding the similarities in other arts is just inevitable.

Like I've said before. I had another teacher that learned WC from a couple of real "secret" chinese teachers for years. 20 years later he starts taking Zapota and finds out that WC/WT has western influences. Like with the rapier and fencing concepts, spanish and portuguese fighting styles. Even Pirate fighting styles. (I know, it's weird but zapota actually came from the fighting styles of french and spanish pirates that had to hid out in the gulf of mexico when the age of piracy was erraticated.) 
Check that stuff out.
The chinese boat opera got around, ya know, they may have exchanged ideas from the spanish, portuguese, french, etc.. while they travelled.
I think that's part of why Emin has a fasination for the western sword arts, and ironically my new teacher has made the correllation too.

I'm not sure if I buy into it myself. But,.. it is an intersting thought process. 



geezer said:


> On another thread, _Seasoned_ pointed out how many of the basic concepts of combat are shared by many martial arts, including WC/WT. I responded that it depends a lot on the martial art in question. Many core concepts are shared, but often there are huge differences, even contradictions even at the most basic levels... in how to stand, root, move, generate power, and so forth. But that either way, comparisons between approaches can be very useful. They help you understand yourself and your opponent better.
> 
> I then added that in addition to Wing Tsun, I train with a guy that teaches a composite, FMA based art called DTE. He also coaches MMA fighters, and interestingly once trained WT under me way back in the mid '80s. Anyway, this guy is really talented and has what I call a "coaches eye". He can really spot problem areas and help people work them out _using what works for them_. Sometimes in his FMA class when we drop the sticks and work empty hands, he'll ask me to use my WT. Often he can give me insights from his broad experience in other styles that helps me become _more efficient and effective._ I laugh and say that if he can make me more efficient, he's teaching_ me _WT... even if that isn't his style.
> 
> So here's my question. Do you feel you can make your WC/WT better by being exposed to other systems? And, have you ever learned things in other styles that has helped your WC/WT? Or do you think that such an approach will just water down and pollute your technique?


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## zepedawingchun (Jul 29, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> . . . . Like I've said before. I had another teacher that learned WC from a couple of real "secret" chinese teachers for years. 20 years later he starts taking Zapota and finds out that WC/WT has western influences. Like with the rapier and fencing concepts, spanish and portuguese fighting styles. Even Pirate fighting styles. (I know, it's weird but zapota actually came from the fighting styles of french and spanish pirates that had to hid out in the gulf of mexico when the age of piracy was erraticated.)


 
Can you elaborate a little bit more about these 'secret' chinese teachers of Wing Chun. If they were secret, how did anyone find out about them?



Si-Je said:


> . . . . The chinese boat opera got around, ya know, they may have exchanged ideas from the spanish, portuguese, french, etc.. while they travelled.
> I think that's part of why Emin has a fasination for the western sword arts, and ironically my new teacher has made the correllation too.
> 
> I'm not sure if I buy into it myself. But,.. it is an intersting thought process.


 
I doubt that the Red Boat Troupe ever got close to Spain, Portugal, or France.  It's too far away and they were too busy surviving and fighting covertly to bring down the current dynasty.  The corellation between fencing with a rapier and Wing Chun is both require advance footwork for closing, moving, stepping, and striking, so each designer built what is obviously superior footwork for their perspective arts. And the human body can only move with a limited amount of speed and ways to move in all directions. WC and fencing has 2 arms, 2 legs, one head and torso to work with so there is going to be simularities in advanced concepts. Both designers of the arts were great at thinking outside the box. It kind of reminds you of the old saying 'great minds think alike'. Which I say is wrong, cause if great minds think alike, they wouldn't be great. I think it should be 'great minds think greatly'.  So the designers of fencing and Wing Chun were thinking greatly.


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## Si-Je (Jul 29, 2009)

Oh, he told me their names but I totally forgot. I'd never heard the names before or since. They just took private students, didn't have a quoon. But he's really good, so they must have been not to shabby.

I don't train with him anymore, moved too far away. But he had some neat (although kookie) ideas about the origins and influences of WC/WT.  There are some really striking similarities to zapota hand techniques, and the hand techniques (position) in fencing and such.


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## Seeker (Aug 1, 2009)

I think a lot of MAist, style-centric ones anyhow; fall into that fallacy of Maslow's hammer.

 "When the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail."


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## geezer (Aug 3, 2009)

Seeker said:


> I think a lot of MAist, style-centric ones anyhow; fall into that fallacy of Maslow's hammer.
> 
> "When the only tool you have is a hammer, it is tempting to treat everything as if it were a nail."



I'm not sure what your point is. Besides, without dissin' Maslow's contributions to psychology, he had no idea how many things you can do with a hammer! Or a good set of hammers. Ever do any blacksmithing?

WC/WT is kinda like that. Sometimes it's written off as too narrow and specialized... focusing on stand-up infighting. But not only is it _very_ good for that, but it can be applied in other ranges and situations as well.  

Of course you can't use a hammer (or WC/WT) for everything. But you can do a lot more than you might think.


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