# Mixing WC w/another MA?



## AceHBK (Aug 3, 2007)

I have been doing a lot of research into WC and I see how people say that you really shouldn't mix WC with any other MA b/c of application of WC and the stance and how you should be when using it.

I wonder how really possibl is that especially if you have taken another MA over time?  I see that many say "EYour WC will look different from someone else's" but if you are not suppose to mix another MA with WC then how much different can each person's be?

I see a potential problem if I take up WC b/c I have a bkrgd in WC and shaolin kung fu.  To me it seems inevitable that I will blend the styles together at some point.  If I do that does that deter from my application of WC?

If you know other styles, how do u use it in conjunction with WC or how do u make sure not to blend any of it with WC?  In a real life situation do you think you would stick to one or do what comes natural which in theory would be to use all that you know from whatever MA you know?

Since I have a bkrgd especially in TKD it is natural for me to kick above the waiste and other things while WC emphasises kicks below the waist.  Im sure with other MA there will be conflicting ways of doing things.  How is your WC instructor when it comes to using another style in your WC fighting applications?

I Llearned TKD first for 2 years then I learned Shaolin Kung Fu for a year and when i started Shaolin my Sifu told me for now to forget everything in TKD in order to soak up all of Kung Fu.  Then after I got the basics of various things down then he said "ok now u could use 'this or that' from TKD"


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## Flying Crane (Aug 3, 2007)

If you train in more than one art, then train them separately.  When you practice Wing Chun, then practice Wing Chun.  When you practice TKD, then practice TKD.  When you practice Shaolin, then practice Shaolin.  Do not mix them when you are training them.  Keep the systems separate from each other, esp. the foundation since the entire art is based on this and each art has a different foundation.  Don't try to graft one upon the other.  They won't work well, or even at all if you try to do TKD from a Wing Chun foundation, or vise-versa.  This is why mixing and cherrypicking techniques from several arts and trying to blend them into one "superstyle" often does not work well.  Each art needs to be done from it's proper foundation.

But when/if you ever need to use it to save your life, you can flow from one to the other as the situation demands and as it seems appropriate for the circumstances.  But you may favor one method over the others, it just depends on your level of experience and skill with each.

It takes longer this way.  If you focus on one art then you will progress faster in that art.  But training in more than one art broadens your horizons and gives you greater insights.  It just takes longer to progress in each art since you are splitting your training time.  As long as you understand and accept that result, you can do it.


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 3, 2007)

Excellent response, Flying Crane.

AoG


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2007)

Here are the facts:
1, All but ONE Martial Art claims to have been based off differnit styles. Thus, blending styles is a good thing.
2, There are styles which are not Wing Chun, that include Wing Chun in it. Cuong Nhu is an example. 
3, If you trained at all well in Tae Kwon Do or Shaolin, you will do the techniques in your Wing Chun Chi Sao. It is inevitable. You train to build techniques, concepts, and principles into your muscle memory. If you try to "click your muscle memory off" you will fail. 
4, When you practice them, keep them seperate. Until you have a HUGE amount of understanding of each. Meaning, when you get to the point where you are a master, or no longer able to train in the art itself. Meaning, since you are no longer training in Tae Kwon Do or Shaolin, alter the techniques so they flow with each other and Wing Chun.
5, TRAIN HARD to understand what you are doing and how it flows together. I really doubt that Ng Wing Chun thought that anyone would add the Double Butterfly Knives or the Seven and Half point pole. But it is undenialable that they flow together.

Lastly, if you _were _to atain a mastery of Wing Chun and start to look outside of Wing Chun for additional skills which readily apply, Aikido and many Filiphino styles blend well.


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## AceHBK (Aug 4, 2007)

Flyinf Crane...I totally agree.  It took me about a month to finally stop (out of habit) reverting back to TKD stuff when I was training b/c I was so use to.  It was a big difference in terms of like you said, stances..kicks, etc.  I agree that you do yourself an injustice if you blend from the beginning.  You do and should learn as much as you can seperately.

I know that WC is it's own system and is vastly different from others but I also know that others have blended stuff with it and wondered how it has worked. Of course I am referring to people that have studied WC for years and then maybe another art later and how did it work out.

Cuong...
1..What is that 1 MA?
2. I have never heard of CuongNhuka but I will look it up to educate myself.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2007)

Bak Mei claims to be based solely on Shaolin. Old school, in the temple Shaolin. 
And it's Cuong Nhu, two words. 'Ka' is Japanese for 'student' or 'practioner'. The Vietnamese would be 'sinh viên'. See why I went with Japanese? Anyways... the Cuong Nhu website is www.cuongnhu.com


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## CheukMo (Aug 4, 2007)

I agree with Flying Crane and CuongNhuka.  You should train in the art that you are currently learning so that you soak in all the fundamentals of that art.  I agree that Aikido or Escrima would work well with Wing Chun, after having learned Wing Chun.  

As far as mixing styles, has it happened and worked?  Yes.  The foremost example would be Bruce Lee.  However, not many people have had his natural ability or supreme work, study and workout ethic.  Nor have many had the "free" time to devote to it.  I believe that most MMA fighters of today would have their a55es kicked if they were to fight a very accomplished stylist of any style.  If you get the History Channel, watch "Human Weapon" and see the MMA fighter and (American) football player/wrestler get beat by pure Muay Thai, Escrima and Karate practicioners.


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## Nyrotic (Aug 4, 2007)

CheukMo said:


> I agree with Flying Crane and CuongNhuka. You should train in the art that you are currently learning so that you soak in all the fundamentals of that art. I agree that Aikido or Escrima would work well with Wing Chun, after having learned Wing Chun.
> 
> As far as mixing styles, has it happened and worked? Yes. The foremost example would be Bruce Lee. However, not many people have had his natural ability or supreme work, study and workout ethic. Nor have many had the "free" time to devote to it. I believe that most MMA fighters of today would have their a55es kicked if they were to fight a very accomplished stylist of any style. If you get the History Channel, watch "Human Weapon" and see the MMA fighter and (American) football player/wrestler get beat by pure Muay Thai, Escrima and Karate practicioners.


 
Let's not also forget that said pure practitioners dedicate a great deal of their time to their single art. A hardcore MMA guy will beat an 'every-other-day' martial artist of ANY style, whereas a hardcore practitioner of any style will beat someone that does MMA or wrestling and hour a day or so. In my opinion, the art itself is irrelevant, only the artist.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2007)

CheukMo said:


> If you get the History Channel, watch "Human Weapon" and see the MMA fighter and (American) football player/wrestler get beat by pure Muay Thai, Escrima and Karate practicioners.


 
I intend on using that show as evidence that a highly skilled, TRADITIONALLY trained student of any art could do alot of damage to most MMA fighters.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> Let's not also forget that said pure practitioners dedicate a great deal of their time to their single art. A hardcore MMA guy will beat an 'every-other-day' martial artist of ANY style, whereas a hardcore practitioner of any style will beat someone that does MMA or wrestling and hour a day or so. In my opinion, the art itself is irrelevant, only the artist.


 
YEP!!!


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## brocklee (Aug 4, 2007)

My opinion differs from others here it appears.  I would say stick to a single art until you master it.  Stay focused and work hard and make it come faster.   I know as of right now I only need WC.  I like to keep it simple and the energy transfer aspect of WC blows my mind.  I couldn't see why you would mix another art with WC during a fight.  It would no longer be considered wing chun if you started using muscles and bobbing around all over the place.  That would be considered boxing, or something else of that nature, and the practitioner would be borrowing a WC block or WC punch here and there.  Which is fine, but it's another style.  There's tons of them out there.  If you go into a fight with WC, you need to end it in the same way.  Fighting using WC takes a different type of control.  A great deal of the fight is a mental game where you spend most he time fighting off fear so that you may remain relaxed.  Relaxation is the only way to achieve the effectiveness created by WC energy.  You CAN use muscles, just know you're losing energy and might as well just get rid of your structure.  My 2 cents.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2007)

brocklee said:


> My opinion differs from others here it appears. I would say stick to a single art until you master it. Stay focused and work hard and make it come faster. I know as of right now I only need WC. I like to keep it simple and the energy transfer aspect of WC blows my mind. I couldn't see why you would mix another art with WC during a fight. It would no longer be considered wing chun if you started using muscles and bobbing around all over the place. That would be considered boxing, or something else of that nature, and the practitioner would be borrowing a WC block or WC punch here and there. Which is fine, but it's another style. There's tons of them out there. If you go into a fight with WC, you need to end it in the same way. Fighting using WC takes a different type of control. A great deal of the fight is a mental game where you spend most he time fighting off fear so that you may remain relaxed. Relaxation is the only way to achieve the effectiveness created by WC energy. You CAN use muscles, just know you're losing energy and might as well just get rid of your structure. My 2 cents.


 
Brock, have you done Chi Sao? Things just kind of come out. The earlier posts were along those lines. We were getting at, he has pervious training, so he shouldn't be too suprised if it comes out in Chi Sao. There are alot of techniques in Shaolin and Tae Kwon Do that flow with Wing Chun semi-well.


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## CheukMo (Aug 5, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> Let's not also forget that said pure practitioners dedicate a great deal of their time to their single art. A hardcore MMA guy will beat an 'every-other-day' martial artist of ANY style, whereas a hardcore practitioner of any style will beat someone that does MMA or wrestling and hour a day or so. In my opinion, the art itself is irrelevant, only the artist.


 
I agree.


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## qi-tah (Aug 5, 2007)

Flying Crane said:


> If you train in more than one art, then train them separately. When you practice Wing Chun, then practice Wing Chun. When you practice TKD, then practice TKD. When you practice Shaolin, then practice Shaolin. Do not mix them when you are training them. Keep the systems separate from each other, esp. the foundation since the entire art is based on this and each art has a different foundation. Don't try to graft one upon the other. They won't work well, or even at all if you try to do TKD from a Wing Chun foundation, or vise-versa. This is why mixing and cherrypicking techniques from several arts and trying to blend them into one "superstyle" often does not work well. Each art needs to be done from it's proper foundation.
> 
> But when/if you ever need to use it to save your life, you can flow from one to the other as the situation demands and as it seems appropriate for the circumstances. But you may favor one method over the others, it just depends on your level of experience and skill with each.
> 
> It takes longer this way. If you focus on one art then you will progress faster in that art. But training in more than one art broadens your horizons and gives you greater insights. It just takes longer to progress in each art since you are splitting your training time. As long as you understand and accept that result, you can do it.


 
Great post FC! Wish i could rep you, but it seems you've been making far too much sense to me lately... 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I'd also add that there is no need to try to conciously "blend" arts... it'll kind of happen along the road anyway. My take on it is that life is too short to restrict yrself if you truly want to study several arts... if it interests you enough then do it! It'll probably slow yr progress down at the beginning, but then why would you be in a rush with arts that take a lifetime to master anyway?


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## brocklee (Aug 5, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Brock, have you done Chi Sao? Things just kind of come out. The earlier posts were along those lines. We were getting at, he has pervious training, so he shouldn't be too suprised if it comes out in Chi Sao. There are alot of techniques in Shaolin and Tae Kwon Do that flow with Wing Chun semi-well.



Yes, I understand.  It will hinder the advantage in chi-sao if you complete moves that are based off of a different concept.  Where as WC would set you up for the next move, a different style may require you to bend off the mother line or become unsquare making the next move more difficult.  

I think if you're already doing  another MA and you are very happy and still love it....stick with it until you are done.  That way you can commit to WC when it is time to start training.  It's very difficult to learn WC while having another background.  Sure you can learn that the hand goes from here to there and the feet are supposed to be like this....but there's much more to it than that and having muscle memory from a different system really interferes and makes it difficult to learn properly.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 5, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Yes, I understand. It will hinder the advantage in chi-sao if you complete moves that are based off of a different concept. Where as WC would set you up for the next move, a different style may require you to bend off the mother line or become unsquare making the next move more difficult.
> 
> I think if you're already doing another MA and you are very happy and still love it....stick with it until you are done. That way you can commit to WC when it is time to start training. It's very difficult to learn WC while having another background. Sure you can learn that the hand goes from here to there and the feet are supposed to be like this....but there's much more to it than that and having muscle memory from a different system really interferes and makes it difficult to learn properly.


 
My intent of replying to this thread is that he _already_ has training from a differnit style. The material is going to come out, no matter how hard he tries to aviod it. Since it's going to come out, he could eaily modify the techniques from Shaolin and Tae Kwon Do so they flow with Wing Chun. It will come out one way or anouther, so he might as well make it so it comes out in a Wing Chun manner.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 7, 2007)

Very interesting points for both sides of the argument. 

I agree with young Brocklee in his comments that you should not mix arts too early. I have got to a point in wing chun where I have learnt the set moves/drills in the Kamon system and it is just training to improve chi sao/getting moves sharper. Therefore I wanted to investigate the ground aspect of martial arts, so I moved onto BJJ. I took the real basics of BJJ (how to control and pin opponents) and wanted to wwork on my cardiovascular so moved onto TKD. All the while, I have also been working/teaching wing chun. Arts should become seperate (ie you shouldn't be working a wing chun drill and then throw in a random TKD kick!! But certainly if you are fighting an experienced fighter and you go to the floor then it is wise to apply BJJ. Or if you get out of distance and your opponent hold you there, you can switch to your TKD game until distance closes

A lot of wing chunners keep too 'pure' and I feel that this is bad. You need to appreciate the other martial arts that exist and how good they can be. 
Wing chun prides itself on quick hands and kicks, but if you see some of the boxers out there, it makes you revisit your training!!

Cross trianing is good, but don't mix your training. As one of the other gus stated, if you want to work on the ground, go and do BJJ or wrestling. Try not to chi sao on the floor like many wing chunners do - it doesn't work!


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 7, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Very interesting points for both sides of the argument.
> 
> I agree with young Brocklee in his comments that you should not mix arts too early. I have got to a point in wing chun where I have learnt the set moves/drills in the Kamon system and it is just training to improve chi sao/getting moves sharper. Therefore I wanted to investigate the ground aspect of martial arts, so I moved onto BJJ. I took the real basics of BJJ (how to control and pin opponents) and wanted to wwork on my cardiovascular so moved onto TKD. All the while, I have also been working/teaching wing chun. Arts should become seperate (ie you shouldn't be working a wing chun drill and then throw in a random TKD kick!! But certainly if you are fighting an experienced fighter and you go to the floor then it is wise to apply BJJ. Or if you get out of distance and your opponent hold you there, you can switch to your TKD game until distance closes
> 
> ...


 
You realise of course that could easily apply many of the movements of punching the kicking. Angles, direction of entry, wrist (anckle) rotation, so on. Or apply the differnit techniuqes from the Wing Chun forms and drills, and you will end up figuring out differnit grappling techniuqes that are taught in Wing Chun. And if I were to recommend a grappling style to complitment Wing Chun, I would go with Aikido or Judo.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 7, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> You realise of course that could easily apply many of the movements of punching the kicking. Angles, direction of entry, wrist (anckle) rotation, so on. Or apply the differnit techniuqes from the Wing Chun forms and drills, and you will end up figuring out differnit grappling techniuqes that are taught in Wing Chun. And if I were to recommend a grappling style to complitment Wing Chun, I would go with Aikido or Judo.


I had a look at Aikido and didn't find that it linked in with wing chun too well. I would just say that I went to four schools to train, and I found that the movements in Aikido relied a lot on what your opponent did
What I mean is, they relied on opponents to give them energy before they could do moves
I found that the grabs/clinches were very long winded. If you go to ground, you want to recover quickly. Aikido did not seem to do this
On its own it seems that Aikido is a good style but I couldn't find a way to accomodate it to the wing chun world
In BJJ, I found that it was very easy to learn the basic moves of pinning, mounting, escaping a mount etc
As for Judo I think this is also a good art but was limited on striking. In BJJ I could see positions where I could attack my opponent using wing chun, whereas Judo I couldn't. 
I usually reccomend Judo to kids as it teaches balance, discipline, fair play and is quite easy to get good at it, but again, as an extension to wing chun, I wouldn't use it

I try not to use any grappling in wing chun. People often claim that wing chun has grappling in it, but these aren't really meant as grappling moves

If you want to grapple it is always better to go to a grappling art, rather than trying to make your particular art stretch to cover it


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 7, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> I had a look at Aikido and didn't find that it linked in with wing chun too well. I would just say that I went to four schools to train, and I found that the movements in Aikido relied a lot on what your opponent did
> What I mean is, they relied on opponents to give them energy before they could do moves
> I found that the grabs/clinches were very long winded. If you go to ground, you want to recover quickly. Aikido did not seem to do this
> On its own it seems that Aikido is a good style but I couldn't find a way to accomodate it to the wing chun world
> ...


 
It's mostly a matter of modification. One of the fun parts of Wing Chun is they not only allow, but encourage adapting the style for the one doing it. Judo is also one of the main roots of BJJ, so they shouldn't be too dissimilar. Also, the Judo clinch can be modified slightly by putting one foot forward. You are know basicly in Man Sao Wu Sao.

And how do you know that some of the techniques aren't intended as grappling moves? There are some techniques that I cann't see being even remotely effective as strikely/blocking techniques, but are devestating as grappling moves.


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## KamonGuy2 (Aug 7, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> It's mostly a matter of modification. One of the fun parts of Wing Chun is they not only allow, but encourage adapting the style for the one doing it. Judo is also one of the main roots of BJJ, so they shouldn't be too dissimilar. Also, the Judo clinch can be modified slightly by putting one foot forward. You are know basicly in Man Sao Wu Sao.
> 
> And how do you know that some of the techniques aren't intended as grappling moves? There are some techniques that I cann't see being even remotely effective as strikely/blocking techniques, but are devestating as grappling moves.


Just through numerous instructors I have spoken to on the subject. Ip Chun, Kevin Chan, Alan Orr, James Sinclair etc have all said previously that wing chun is not a grappling art. Certainly you can get out of a clinch using wing chun, but you should not be proactively looking to enter a grapple with an opponent. 

It is like fighting a BJJ guy keeping your feet - he shouldn't then be relying on BJJ to close you down. If you watch the modern UFC guys they won't try the same trick again and agin. If something doesn't work, switch to something else (or another art). If you are fighting a boxer and he is outboxing you, don't box him!!!! 

The gym that I train at - Budokwai in london is full of extremely good Judo men and women and they actually suggested using BJJ rather than Judo. 

If I am perfectly honest I was loking at many other grappling arts because my Sifu Kevin Chan does BJJ and I didn't want to copy him. 

But after looking around I found that BJJ was the best option as a realistic merge with wing chun. I think a lot of people hesitate around BJJ because of the whole claim that BJJ is the best etc. But to be honest I think it certainly is one of the best


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 7, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Just through numerous instructors I have spoken to on the subject. Ip Chun, Kevin Chan, Alan Orr, James Sinclair etc have all said previously that wing chun is not a grappling art. Certainly you can get out of a clinch using wing chun, but you should not be proactively looking to enter a grapple with an opponent.
> 
> It is like fighting a BJJ guy keeping your feet - he shouldn't then be relying on BJJ to close you down. If you watch the modern UFC guys they won't try the same trick again and agin. If something doesn't work, switch to something else (or another art). If you are fighting a boxer and he is outboxing you, don't box him!!!!


 
I never said that Wing Chun was a grappling art. I said it has movements that can be applied to grappling.


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## monji112000 (Aug 7, 2007)

mixing styles can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing. You must remember every school you train in expects that you learn its methods, without question. What you do on your own time is your business. 

I believe many arts are good to mix with. BJJ is another art, Boxing or Thai boxing is also a good art to mix with.


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## brocklee (Aug 7, 2007)

monji112000 said:


> mixing styles can be a good thing and it can be a bad thing. You must remember every school you train in expects that you learn its methods, without question. What you do on your own time is your business.
> 
> I believe many arts are good to mix with. BJJ is another art, Boxing or Thai boxing is also a good art to mix with.



those are effective arts and I would have to agree on those as well.  As much as I'm about not mixing arts...I would say if you're going to do it, those would be the ones to choose from.


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