# Is TSD Really This Old?



## SamT (Jul 21, 2008)

Unfortunately I know only bits and pieces on the history of different martial arts, specifically more abstract stuff about Tang Soo Do. To the best of my knowledge, of Tang Soo Do as we practice today was created by Grand Master Hwang Kee, correct? Is this all based on his original research and inspirations from other martial arts, or is the stuff we learn today in the dojang really that similar to what warriors used over 2,000 years ago?

If I'm completely off base with our history though, please let me know. I'd love to know as much as possible about the origins of Tang Soo Do as we practice it today.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 21, 2008)

SamT said:


> Unfortunately I know only bits and pieces on the history of different martial arts, specifically more abstract stuff about Tang Soo Do. To the best of my knowledge, of Tang Soo Do as we practice today was created by Grand Master Hwang Kee, correct? Is this all based on his original research and inspirations from other martial arts, or is the stuff we learn today in the dojang really that similar to what warriors used over 2,000 years ago?
> 
> If I'm completely off base with our history though, please let me know. I'd love to know as much as possible about the origins of Tang Soo Do as we practice it today.


 
Yes, the Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do that we know today was created by Hwang Kee in 1945.  That is the best assumption to start with.

There are many stories of Korean arts being based on Tae Kyon and Su bak, but there is very little surviving history or documentation regarding either of those things.  Our best knowledge is that Tae Kyon was more of a game than a martial arts style.  I don't know much about Su Bak, but something else that you hear a lot about is the arts of the Hwa Rang Warriors.  Who were more of a young men's training corps for the military than an ancient special forces.  

The bottom line here is that there isn't really any solid information left regarding the ancient styles that may or may not have contributed themselves to the practice of Soo Bahk Do.  What we do know for sure is that Soo Bahk Do/Tang Soo Do is heavily influenced by Hwang Kee's time in China and the southern style chinese arts as well as the okinawan and Japanese styles, with whom we share many of our forms.  

I wouldnt' say that you are off base, it is just difficult to find any true, documented history.  When the Japanese burned and destroyed a good deal of Korean history during their invasion, who knows what kind of records were lost.  Honest, I just don't think that the truth is out there anymore, which means that we rely on the stories and teachings from our styles.


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## terryl965 (Jul 21, 2008)

TSD or SBD has been around for thousands of years or atleast alot of the techs. has been. You see all arts one way or another derive from another art so the correct addage here would be Hwang Kee developed what is consider modern day TSD or SBD but alot of those techniques was deveved from other arts he study. Now do not get me wrong he did come up with a diferent way of presenting and changing certain techs, to make them more practicle in that time period and it has evolved thoughout the years just like any other art. So your assumption are pretty accurrate withen the guideslines and timeframe.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> TSD or SBD has been around for thousands of years or atleast alot of the techs. has been. You see all arts one way or another derive from another art so the correct addage here would be Hwang Kee developed what is consider modern day TSD or SBD but alot of those techniques was deveved from other arts he study. Now do not get me wrong he did come up with a diferent way of presenting and changing certain techs, to make them more practicle in that time period and it has evolved thoughout the years just like any other art. So your assumption are pretty accurrate withen the guideslines and timeframe.


 
If we're talking purely about the techniques themselves...such as punching, kicking, joint locks, etc....they trace back to as early as men have fought each other.  It is not a coincidence that every civilization around the world created their own style of martial arts - many of which are very similar.  There are only a certain number of ways to use your hands and feet....and joints only rotate in certain ways.  Every civilization has realized this.  

But the specific style of Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do and its packaging, way that it is presented and philosophy was solely Hwang Kee's creation.  Granted, he borrowed many ideas from other arts and styles from other countries.  If you are interested in the historical creation of Tang Soo Do - it is 1945.


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## terryl965 (Jul 21, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> If we're talking purely about the techniques themselves...such as punching, kicking, joint locks, etc....they trace back to as early as men have fought each other. It is not a coincidence that every civilization around the world created their own style of martial arts - many of which are very similar. There are only a certain number of ways to use your hands and feet....and joints only rotate in certain ways. Every civilization has realized this.
> 
> But the specific style of Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do and its packaging, way that it is presented and philosophy was solely Hwang Kee's creation. Granted, he borrowed many ideas from other arts and styles from other countries. If you are interested in the historical creation of Tang Soo Do - it is 1945.


 

Mbuzzy I agree completely with the above, I was not trying to put anyone down or anything just stating some simple facts like you. Just like General Choi creation of modern day TKD it was a concept of his beliefs and the way he presented them that made it different, Just like Hwang Kee did with TSD and SBD he made it for his way of seeing it. Sorry if you took offense to my post. You know I really never try to be down playing any of the great Master or GM that brought that knowledge to us. :asian:


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## MBuzzy (Jul 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Mbuzzy I agree completely with the above, I was not trying to put anyone down or anything just stating some simple facts like you. Just like General Choi creation of modern day TKD it was a concept of his beliefs and the way he presented them that made it different, Just like Hwang Kee did with TSD and SBD he made it for his way of seeing it. Sorry if you took offense to my post. You know I really never try to be down playing any of the great Master or GM that brought that knowledge to us. :asian:


 
Not at all, no offense taken!  I just have a way of restating things sometimes.    This is a problem that we have with all Korean martial arts due to the destruction of so many of our documents.  Even in Haidong Gumdo, we have the same issues.  There are no records of the Samurang, if they even existed, so no way to go back and research.


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## terryl965 (Jul 21, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> Not at all, no offense taken! I just have a way of restating things sometimes.  This is a problem that we have with all Korean martial arts due to the destruction of so many of our documents. Even in Haidong Gumdo, we have the same issues. There are no records of the Samurang, if they even existed, so no way to go back and research.


 

I completely agree, it is sad that all that evidence will never be around for generation after generations.


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## MBuzzy (Jul 21, 2008)

And the Korean culture complicates things even more.  Stories tend to gain acceptance as truth much more easily, as long as the story comes from the right source.  And now, the proof just isn't there any more.  We do have the Muye Dobo Tongji, which offers a great deal of insights, but even its origins and purpose are not fully clear.


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## arnisador (Jul 21, 2008)

TSD, like TKD, dates from the end of WWII when it was sythesized from arts that were principally Japanese and Chinese. The Japanese were quite effective at stamping out Korean arts of all kinds during their occupation, and Korean martial arts had been fading before that in the late 1800s (as they had in most countries due to changes in weaponry, military tactics, and world politics).


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