# Chin Na (need some help)



## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2006)

If I understand correctly Chin Na is Chinese Wrestling. If that is not true please tell me. If it is I would like to know some conditioning tips from people who have done Chin Na before. I ask because starting this year I am going to be a wrestler in high school. 
I already know some Judo and Aikido (both are in Cuong Nhu), so I feel I have at least a fighting chance. How ever I would like to do some conditioning the wrestlers wont know, as it could also give me an edge (or atleast irritate them).
Now some of you may be woundering why I even care so much about a game. Well, if I get good enough I could go to college on a wrestling scholarship. And it could also help train my grappling. heres hopeing


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 3, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> If I understand correctly Chin Na is Chinese Wrestling. If that is not true please tell me. If it is I would like to know some conditioning tips from people who have done Chin Na before. I ask because starting this year I am going to be a wrestler in high school.
> I already know some Judo and Aikido (both are in Cuong Nhu), so I feel I have at least a fighting chance. How ever I would like to do some conditioning the wrestlers wont know, as it could also give me an edge (or atleast irritate them).
> Now some of you may be woundering why I even care so much about a game. Well, if I get good enough I could go to college on a wrestling scholarship. And it could also help train my grappling. heres hopeing


 
No Chin Na (Qinna) is not Chinese wrestling it is muscle and tendon tearing and joint locking to be exact. Chinese wrestling is Shuai Chiao (Shuaijiao)


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 3, 2006)

Chin-na is like grappling with joint locks.


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## Brother John (Aug 3, 2006)

Yes....listen to Xue.
Chin-Na IS very very interesting though.
But the majority of it's moves would get you thrown OUT...if not arrested...from a wrestling meet.

I wrestled too!! I'd bet you'll enjoy it!
If you want the upper hand...
start lifting weights NOW, emphasize the main power movements. BUT: Don't go TOO heavy. Just get a good foundation of strength now. DON'T do any over the counter (or under) "Body-building" supplements until you are an adult!! Trust me, you're young....you don't need them at all and would end up with just some very expensive urine.

Also: Lift twice a week, RUN three times per week. MOST wrestlers in the HighSchool range do not take cardiovascular conditioning seriously enough. I'd recomend that you work a series of 20 yard sprints....doing ALL OUT speed, maybe 15 of them, taking a 1 minute break between. THEN: finish your sprints with a one mile jog. NOT fast, just a good even pace.

ALSO: Don't _ever_ neglect building strength in your abdominal muscles and the muscles of your lower back!! (CRUNCHES are great, but they are just the beginning!)
START working those neck muscles NOW. Look up exercises for the neck and then do them RELIGIOUSLY!!! (Neck injuries are one of the more common injuries in wrestling so....overcome it NOW)

Best of luck to you man.
Be good!! DO better.......

Your Brother
John


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 3, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Yes....listen to Xue.
> Chin-Na IS very very interesting though.
> But the majority of it's moves would get you thrown OUT...if not arrested...from a wrestling meet.


 
Qinna is the only CMA related art I studied and read about that made me cringe, it can get plain nasty and incredibly debilitating if not down right crippling as far as your opponent is concerned so I agree completely with Brother John.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2006)

Thanks. I had never even heard of Chin Na untill I read an article about it in Black Belt magazine. And the way the auhur described it, I thought it was wrestling. But thanks for the replys. 
The authur also mentioned that there are specific conditioning execrises used in Chin Na. I really menat could you folks send me in the write derection to get those exercises. Assuming I read the arcticle correctly.
But since Shuai Chiao is Chineese Wrestling, are there any specific conditioning exercises for it? I don't want techinques, since they are hard to learn with a descrpition and pictures. and nearly imposable to learn form just a description.
And folks thanks for the insite!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 3, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> Thanks. I had never even heard of Chin Na untill I read an article about it in Black Belt magazine. And the way the auhur described it, I thought it was wrestling. But thanks for the replys.
> The authur also mentioned that there are specific conditioning execrises used in Chin Na. I really menat could you folks send me in the write derection to get those exercises. Assuming I read the arcticle correctly.


 
There is an article in a magazine that I have that goes over some of the exercises for Qinna, I will have to look for it and maybe you can get it a back issue.

Also Dr Yang Jwing Ming has a book on Qinna that goes over training as well. But remember Qinna could get you kicked out of a match



			
				CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> But since Shuai Chiao is Chineese Wrestling, are there any specific conditioning exercises for it? I don't want techinques, since they are hard to learn with a descrpition and pictures. and nearly imposable to learn form just a description.
> And folks thanks for the insite!


 
Yes there are but I have no idea what they are exactly. I do know that Liang Shouyu use to teach it.

http://www.shouyuliang.com/index.shtml

Maybe he has something on it


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## mantis (Aug 3, 2006)

Like they said Chi'Na is not wrestling. Chi here means 'to catch', and 'Na' means 'to control'.  
all chinese martial arts involve chi'na of some sort usually.  also, in terms of your wrestling you can use china to control then transition to your throw downs.  Remember locks are not intended to be just locks.  they give you control of opponent to do something with them whether it's a strike, take down, or just to escape from a situation


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 3, 2006)

I must be getting old and forgetful; I should have given you this last time.

Shuai jiao  
http://www.answers.com/topic/shuai-jiao

Chin Na
http://www.answers.com/topic/chin-na


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## Kensai (Aug 3, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Qinna is the only CMA related art I studied and read about that made me cringe, it can get plain nasty and incredibly debilitating if not down right crippling as far as your opponent is concerned so I agree completely with Brother John.


 
I like the sound of that,  Can you shed a little light please brother? :asian:


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## Drac (Aug 3, 2006)

I own a book called "Chin-Na, The Grappling Art of KungFu"..That about says it all...Some REAL serious techniques that could get your training partner REALLY hurt if you don't know what you're doing...


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2006)

Thanks again guys. You are being very helpful. I think all this is going to be very helpful. Esspecialy the book and web sites.
And unrelated to every thing, but Drac what language is your signature in? I'm sorry, but it's been bugging me. What is that? Russian?


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## Kensai (Aug 3, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> Thanks again guys. You are being very helpful. I think all this is going to be very helpful. Esspecialy the book and web sites.
> And unrelated to every thing, but Drac what language is your signature in? I'm sorry, but it's been bugging me. What is that? Russian?


 
Latin.


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## Drac (Aug 3, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> And unrelated to every thing, but Drac what language is your signature in? I'm sorry, but it's been bugging me. What is that? Russian?


 
Latin...


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2006)

Thanks... that shows how much Russian and Latin I know.


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## Kensai (Aug 3, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> Thanks... that shows how much Russian and Latin I know.


 
I did Latin at high school, that's the only reason I knew mate. "Timeo daneo et dona ferrentis", or there's "omnia vincit amor, et nos cedamus amore"!! That's about all I remember. Oh, "orum" on the end of a word means it's genetive plural. Apparently?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 3, 2006)

I Just remembered this 

Another person that was in wrestling and then later competed in Shuai-Chiao was Matt Furey of Combat conditioning fame. Maybe there is something on his site as well.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> "Timeo daneo et dona ferrentis", or there's "omnia vincit amor, et nos cedamus amore"!!


 
and those mean what? all the latin i know is "you too Brutus" but like i could spell it.


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 4, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I Just remembered this
> 
> Another person that was in wrestling and then later competed in Shuai-Chiao was Matt Furey of Combat conditioning fame. Maybe there is something on his site as well.


 
i'll look into that


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## Gaoguy (Aug 4, 2006)

Think of ANY chin na as a gift. It is very difficult to actually get in a full speed match.


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## Kensai (Aug 4, 2006)

CuongNhuka said:
			
		

> and those mean what? all the latin i know is "you too Brutus" but like i could spell it.


 
The first quote was " I fear the Greeks, even when they bring gifts", and the second was, "Love conquers all, and we all succumb to love". And there ends todays Latin lesson.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 4, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> And there ends todays Latin lesson.


 
Thank the Gods, the roman gods that is 

And the only latin I remember isCogito ergo sum


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## mantis (Aug 4, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Thank the Gods, the roman gods that is
> 
> And the only latin I remember isCogito ergo sum


thank the gods? roman gods?
is that a chi'na technique?
im lost!


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## Kensai (Aug 4, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> thank the gods? roman gods?
> is that a chi'na technique?
> im lost!


 
Yes. Have you know not heard of it? Pfft, call yourself a martial artist...


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 4, 2006)

mantis said:
			
		

> thank the gods? roman gods?
> is that a chi'na technique?
> im lost!


 
Yes a little know Qinna techniques practiced by Julius Caesar and the roman legion but they called it tendonus ripodus. 

Sorry I know it was bad, but it is all I had.


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## Kensai (Aug 4, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Yes a little know Qinna techniques practiced by Julius Caesar and the roman legion but they called it tendonus ripodus.
> 
> Sorry I know it was bad, but it is all I had.


 
LMAO. Still good mate, still good.


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## barnaby (Aug 4, 2006)

if you're interested in learning Chinese wrestling (Shuai-chiao) which in fact involves some Chi-na in application (if less in competition), check out this organization:  www.shuai-chiao.org

They have a good system and much source material.  Its founder, Daniel Weng, trained Matt Furey, when Mr. Furey took first in the Shuai-chiao competition in China.


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## delicate Flower (Aug 4, 2006)

I agree with alot of the post, Chi Na is a very dangerous and limb destroying art if not used with extreme caution, My Sensei and I train some Chi na in our system and I can tell you that when they are applied correctly they are extremely painful even in controled practice, I would only use these in life or death situations because some of the damage can be forever.


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## Kensai (Aug 4, 2006)

delicate Flower said:
			
		

> I agree with alot of the post, Chi Na is a very dangerous and limb destroying art if not used with extreme caution, My Sensei and I train some Chi na in our system and I can tell you that when they are applied correctly they are extremely painful even in controled practice, I would only use these in life or death situations because some of the damage can be forever.


 
Hello, I've done a little ju jitsu, so obviously, with that comes the standard range of armlocks/bars, wrists etc. Are there any similarities to this, or is it completely different? I'm quite curious about this. :asian: 

Thanks. 

Kensai


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## barnaby (Aug 4, 2006)

anytime you're locking a joint, or seizing for control, that's under the Chinese definition of Chin-na by my understanding of it.  what are the circumstances that you're looking at studying under, just out of curiosity?  seminar, class?  there is a man named Yang who travels frequently teaching seminars -- http://school.ymaa.com/


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## 7starmantis (Aug 5, 2006)

Kensai said:
			
		

> Hello, I've done a little ju jitsu, so obviously, with that comes the standard range of armlocks/bars, wrists etc. Are there any similarities to this, or is it completely different? I'm quite curious about this. :asian:
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Kensai



Yes there are similarities and its completely different. The standard range of armlocks apply, but Chin Na usually goes further into small joint manipulation, breaking, etc. Also, pure Chin Na gets into vital organ attacks, sealing the breath and the blood (chokes), etc. Chin Na does contain strikes (many do not know this) but they are focused on striking to grab, lock, tear, choke, etc. Even some pressure point type attacking during the locks.

7sm


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## profesormental (Aug 5, 2006)

Greetings!

For help in sports wrestling, specially freestyle wrestling, shuai Jiao should help, since it has many throws that use the legs.

Chin Na is usually used for joint controls, which should teach you a lot of how the body works and with some thought you could use it to inadvertedly and inconspicuosly turn your opponent around for pins.

Check which attacks and approaches are sports legal.

Also, to win at wrestling, as in many sports the most helpful thing would be good mental training as to devise strategy and tactics that follow in chains...

that will help you learn CONCIOUSLY how to setup your opponent as in a chess match instead of jsut going moment to moment.

If you want to learn more of that just ask... yet know that it is hardly taught effectively in many sports... the ones that do, by accident or by design ussually win. There are several sports psychology and a few trainers that work on this... 

and I taught it to one of my students and despite being out of shape (for national competition) he almost defeated one of the #1 judoka in the Island. (The judoka couldn't believe he couldn't thow him!). He went from throwing my student easily to in a few weeks being unable to.

With more coditioning, he could've kept up the attacks and most probably won... yet as they say...

Conditioning is the best technique.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## Kensai (Aug 5, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yes there are similarities and its completely different. The standard range of armlocks apply, but Chin Na usually goes further into small joint manipulation, breaking, etc. Also, pure Chin Na gets into vital organ attacks, sealing the breath and the blood (chokes), etc. Chin Na does contain strikes (many do not know this) but they are focused on striking to grab, lock, tear, choke, etc. Even some pressure point type attacking during the locks.
> 
> 7sm


 
Sounds nasty. Although I've heard of it, I never really understood how it may have differed from other grappling/locking arts. Thanks 7starmantis. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2006)

barnaby said:
			
		

> anytime you're locking a joint, or seizing for control, that's under the Chinese definition of Chin-na by my understanding of it. what are the circumstances that you're looking at studying under, just out of curiosity? seminar, class? there is a man named Yang who travels frequently teaching seminars -- http://school.ymaa.com/


 
Don&#8217;t forget the muscle and tendon tearing. Joint locking plus, if you will, in some cases

Yang Jwing Ming aka Dr Yang. His main school is outside of Boston. 

He is VERY good at Qinna, I have had some experience with his Qinna ability. 

And you are right the Chinese Definition of Qinna includes joint locking, but there is more and 7starmantis saved me the trouble of typing it. 

And allow me reiterate there are many many Qinna applications, most actually, that just plain do not belong in a sporting competition. 



			
				7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yes there are similarities and its completely different. The standard range of armlocks apply, but Chin Na usually goes further into small joint manipulation, breaking, etc. Also, pure Chin Na gets into vital organ attacks, sealing the breath and the blood (chokes), etc. Chin Na does contain strikes (many do not know this) but they are focused on striking to grab, lock, tear, choke, etc. Even some pressure point type attacking during the locks.



Yup that about covers it. It is can be just plain nasty. 

There is also a lot of associated strength training parts to Qinna training as well. 

And just about every Traditional Chinese Martial art has some aspect of Qinna in it, some more than others.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 5, 2006)

Following this thread really piqued my interest.  I've been meaning to Order Dr. Yangs book on ChiNa for a while now.  But reading what y'all had to say about it finally made me do it.

Jeff


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Following this thread really piqued my interest. I've been meaning to Order Dr. Yangs book on ChiNa for a while now. But reading what y'all had to say about it finally made me do it.
> 
> Jeff


 
Glad to hear it but be prepared, it could make you cringe (it did me) 

And it will make you think more than once; OW!!! That has to hurt.

But it is a good book.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 5, 2006)

I agree, its pretty violent as far as the chin na themselves....but I absolutely love chin na!!


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## Shaolinwind (Aug 5, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Yes....listen to Xue.
> Chin-Na IS very very interesting though.
> But the majority of it's moves would get you thrown OUT...if not arrested...from a wrestling meet.


 
This reminds me of my short time in Ying Jow Pai.

I went to the site and copied and pasted the following. 

The "Seven Principles" of Eagle Claw kung fu are 
Jow Da Cum Na (clawing and locking), 
Dim Yut Bye Hei (attacking pressure points and stopping the breath), 
Cow Wai Sau Fung (locking), 
Diu Cow Fing Lau (controlling, pushing and pulling), 
Sim Jim Tong Na (twisting, jumping and dropping to the floor), 
Noi Sup Chung Dit (falling and techniques using waist) and 
Fun Gun Chaw Quat (cutting veins and shattering bones).

Sounds like Chin-na to me but it was never described as such in classes.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 5, 2006)

Eagle Claw is very closely related to chin na in my opinion, alot of the same intent.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 5, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Eagle Claw is very closely related to chin na in my opinion, alot of the same intent.


 
I agree. 

I believe there is Qinna in Eagle claw. 

As I said before almost all CMA styles have an element of Qinna. Just some have more than others.


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## profesormental (Aug 6, 2006)

Greetings!

Most Chinese Martial arts have the following major tool sets (this is also discussed in previous threads...)

Shuai Jiao (throwing and projections)
Chin Na (joint manipulations and controls)
Strikes (KO's, defensive strikes and point spotting)
Leg Manuvers (footwork, Kicks and positioning)


Chin Na, as it's name implies is any technique that has as components seizing or grabbing in conjuntion with a control aspect...

and most controls, if you put enough leverage and pressure, can be the difference between a concession hold and a joint break, an organ rupture, an asphixiation or strangulation... or worse!

Much fun stuff!

And yes, Dr. Yang has excellent literature on this... specially his first book on the subject.

The bigger one is just expanded with examples... yet both are really good.

Unfortunately, the most important part of the training is not mentioned explicitly in the books... 

which is the flow of techniques as a response to realistic committed attacks...

which is NOT setup by the Chin Na...

and the transitions to Shuai Jiao...

which IS setup by the Chin Na!

Chin Na by itself is very interesting, yet it will get you hit if you don't train with the other aspects in continous flow towards you objective...

escape, control, hurt, injure, maim, kill.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## 7starmantis (Aug 6, 2006)

I agree, training the chin na itself is a must to learn the technique, but you also must train the setting up, and transitions in and out of them. 

Just for fun, here are a few videos of some good finger chin na performed and explained by Dr Yang. 

#1





#2





#3





#4





Enjoy,
 7sm


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 6, 2006)

Would it be a good assumption that the setups and transitions for Chi Na would be similar to those of jujitsu?

Jeff


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## Kensai (Aug 6, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I agree, training the chin na itself is a must to learn the technique, but you also must train the setting up, and transitions in and out of them.
> 
> Just for fun, here are a few videos of some good finger chin na performed and explained by Dr Yang.
> 
> ...


 
They were very cool. Thanks for that mate.


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## Syn (Aug 6, 2006)

Hmm though most wrestlers don't think of this, and mainly work on the upper body, my sifu told my friend to build up his horse stance so that he can ground himself really well. After developing it he start kicking major as at doing seatbelts and such with all the leg strength he has.

Just do a horse stance for about 10 minutes a day. When your legs get too tired stand up for about 30 seconds and then keep going.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 6, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I agree, training the chin na itself is a must to learn the technique, but you also must train the setting up, and transitions in and out of them.
> 
> Just for fun, here are a few videos of some good finger chin na performed and explained by Dr Yang.
> 
> ...


 
Cool

And yet somehow a couple of those are painfully familiar


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## 7starmantis (Aug 6, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Would it be a good assumption that the setups and transitions for Chi Na would be similar to those of jujitsu?
> 
> Jeff



Um, probably to a point, but the techniques are much different using different types of locks and such.

7sm


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 7, 2006)

thanks folks. and who says kung fu is only a striking art?


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## DBACPhoenix (Aug 7, 2006)

All Chin Na can be placed into the following categories:

Bone Seperation
Muscle Dividing
Sealing The Air
Sealing The Vein
Cavity Pressing

And while at full speed Chin Na techniques can be devistating, I find it the best way to demonstrate CMA.

People love to see immediate results, and Chin Na can definatly do that.  Anyone who is controlled with their Chin Na can take a person and practically make them dance for you by correctly chaining together different Chin Na techniques.

And as it was said before, Chin Na will definatly make you learn the intricasies of the human body and the way it can (and can't) move.  An expert in Chin Na doesn't need to think about what techniques they could apply, but what ways can the opponents body be manipulated.

As for using this in wrestling, it is definatly possible if you keep it under control.  The second someone screams the ref is going to stop the match.  When I wrestled in High School I used plenty of wrist wraps to get my opponent to drop his guard.  You only need a brief moment where your opponent diverts his attention elsewhere so you can strike with a take down.  Knowledge of Chin Na would also help when trying to position your opponent for a pin as it shows you were the human body has strength, and where it is weak.

Of course Chin Na is not simple to understand or perfect and while almost every martial art has an element of Chin Na within it, you could spend a lifetime just training Chin Na (i.e. Aikedo).


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## profesormental (Aug 7, 2006)

Greetings!

Chin Na is one of the most devastation modalities of Kung Fu, as well as one of the most humane... pain compliance and control to a degree... if you go further... permanent maiming and death!

Cool!

On the similarities with several styles of jujitsu, there are similarities in the sequences for joint manipulation and cavity pressing...

yet it depends on the individual instructor, for some have not been taught, while others have or they've found the applications with diligent study.

There are sequences that start with a cavity press, then muscle dividing then seting up the opponent for sealing the vein or the air.

Teh setup chains tend to be a better teaching tool than just the technique.

More later, gotta go!

Juan M. Mercado


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 11, 2006)

intresting


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 11, 2006)

Just got Dr. Yang's "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" today.  Very interesting to see the roots of jujitsu.  The transitions are very different from the beginning levels of jujitsu, but look a lot like the more advanced ones.  At least in what I've been taught.

Jeff


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## Jade Tigress (Aug 12, 2006)

JeffJ said:
			
		

> Just got Dr. Yang's "Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin Na" today.  Very interesting to see the roots of jujitsu.  The transitions are very different from the beginning levels of jujitsu, but look a lot like the more advanced ones.  At least in what I've been taught.
> 
> Jeff



Yep, a couple years ago my Sifu recommended this book. I believe the one you just got is the updated version so to speak.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 12, 2006)

Jade Tigress said:
			
		

> Yep, a couple years ago my Sifu recommended this book. I believe the one you just got is the updated version so to speak.


And about $25 more expensive. But it does have a crapload of techniques in it.

Jeff


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## barnaby (Aug 12, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Yang Jwing Ming aka Dr Yang. His main school is outside of Boston.
> 
> He is VERY good at Qinna, I have had some experience with his Qinna ability. "
> 
> I actually took a seminar with him here in New Mexico.  my training partner, curious and enthusiastic, asked a question about an application called, "Turning to Face the Gorrilla," or something like this while I was nearby, so hedmonstrated on me -- Dr. Yang sort of "picked me up" over his shoulder, using my elbow as the lifting point and the pain quickly shot up to my shoulder and neck.  I applied medicine and was ready to start "thanking" my partner for his question after a few rounds sitting out.  Really though, he is terrific, I'm glad this conversation brought you to checking his material out, Jeff -- Best, Barnaby


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