# Defense against a sucker punch



## stanley neptune

How do you defend against a sucker punch?

Last night on the Channel 25 news in Boston there was a story about a bunch of punks who roam the streets sucker punching and fighting with people and video taping it. These dirt bags are the lowest of low.

I have told many people that the best self defense is self awareness and to avoid areas of trouble. But when you have the dregs of society who think it is acceptable to attack innocent people to get their jollies you may become a victim no matter where you are.

How can you defend against such an attack? I am wondering how different styles defend against this.

Stanley Neptune


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## WillFightForBeer

I think the best defense is to be aware of the situation. If someone gets that close to you on the street, or starts looking at you in a manner that isn't the casual "please step out of my way", then it is important to be aware that he/she is a possible threat. If you recognize a person as a threat, then any shoulder movement or raising of the arm will make you very much switch to a combatitive mindset. Awareness is really the key in these situations.


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## Furtry

I could get in to the four levels of sensitivity and all that other jive but I wont.
Learn to work from contact, have partner sucker you and work on response.
Such as roll and run if the shot was hard enough to knock you over. (If I got knocked over I wouldn't worry about getting him back, my well being is more important than a bruised ego)
Next option roll with the shot and counter.
Roll with the shot and sucker punch his buddy :btg: 
Many options...  but I say learn to deal with getting hit as IT IS GOING to happen. (Personal pet peeve with MA schools that think they can teach you to be 'untouchable')


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## RachelK

Although there was no video camera involved, my friend told me he was riding the subway (NYC) one day and a bunch of thugs came into the car and started whaling on all the passengers who were just sitting there minding their own business. They were literally jumping all over people, trampling them as they sat there, and punching them, and of course the passengers were upset, but apparently not upset enough to do anything about it, assuming there was anything they could do. I would have changed cars, but that isn't always possible, sometimes the doors between cars are locked and you can't change until the train stops. After the thugs left, one guy had blood running down his head and I don't know if he was seriously injured, but I'm sure it wasn't pretty. 
I hope this relates to Stan's question, but how should the passengers have defended themselves, assuming they couldn't change cars? When my friend related the tale, I got kind of p.o.'d because the subways are filled with rude thugs who think they can intimidate everyone. I wish that there was something I could have done about it, but I have no idea what I would have done if I was there. Certainly avoidance, as much as possible in a closed car, would have been a major part of my strategy, but another part of me cannot stand the idea of doing nothing while thugs trample old people and babies in strollers. 
Just throwing this out there as yet another example of thug behaviour. The videotaping really takes the cake, though. Somewhere out there, some guys have a videotape of me fighting with a huge frat boy who was trying to videotape me against my will, even though I asked him politely to go away, twice, before losing it altogether (this was a very long time ago when I was an ignorant teenager). I still get mad when I think of them sitting around, no doubt laughing, watching the tape of me rolling around on the floor with the frat boy and cursing like a sailor. But once I saw that there was no way I could take the guy, I went for the video camera. When they saw I was going to destroy their equipment, they ran like hell. The stupid things teenagers do, by that I mean, all three of us were acting like morons. 
So about Stan's question, how do you defend yourself against thugs like these? And what about others who are helpless, let's say you witness the thugs videotaping beating up someone, do you stop and help, or call the police? Personally I am not sure what I'd do, I pray that I'll never have to find out, but riding the subway 2-4 times a day, I am sure I will encounter thuggery eventually.
Best wishes,
Rachel




			
				stanley neptune said:
			
		

> How do you defend against a sucker punch?
> 
> Last night on the Channel 25 news in Boston there was a story about a bunch of punks who roam the streets sucker punching and fighting with people and video taping it. These dirt bags are the lowest of low.
> 
> I have told many people that the best self defense is self awareness and to avoid areas of trouble. But when you have the dregs of society who think it is acceptable to attack innocent people to get their jollies you may become a victim no matter where you are.
> 
> How can you defend against such an attack? I am wondering how different styles defend against this.
> 
> Stanley Neptune


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## Clive

Continuing from what Furtry said, I guess this type of practice would improve your sensitivity to sucker punches and help you appreciate the feel of when someone has the intention to strike you in this way.

 -vampfeed-


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## Touch Of Death

Clive said:
			
		

> Continuing from what Furtry said, I guess this type of practice would improve your sensitivity to sucker punches and help you appreciate the feel of when someone has the intention to strike you int his way.


 If you learn to accept that anyone around you could throw a punch, its never a succer punch for you is it?
Sean


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## Clive

I guess not, but if you thought on those lines you would never walk near a crowd of people. You have to be able to determine the most realistic threats.


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## Touch Of Death

Clive said:
			
		

> I guess not, but if you thought on those lines you would never walk near a crowd of people. You have to be able to determine the most realistic threats.


I'm not saying be a sissy about it. I'm saying make them want to choose someone else by positioning your self in a more defensive manner. keep you head up, your eyes open, and your ears tuned. :asian: 
Sean


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## Furtry

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I'm not saying be a sissy about it. I'm saying make them want to choose someone else by positioning your self in a more defensive manner. keep you head up, your eyes open, and your ears tuned. :asian:
> Sean


Excelent point; don't act like a victim.


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## Tom Gass

If I saw a pack of thugs walking around in an aggressive manner, a sucker punch would not come as much of a surprise. The scenario dictates the response to some extent. Are you with people? Adults? Men or women?children? Is there an exit available? Is a fight inevitable? They always say it's best to scream Fire! if you want to get a response from bystanders. 
In any case, you should practice the scenario with all the posturing. Work slowly through the different types of approaches i.e. asking for time/directions/a light/spare change. Work the different type of sucker punches such as the haymaker, kick to the groin, head butt. Get accustomed to the pre-fight indicators i.e. clenched fists, antagonist(s) looking around to see if anyone is looking, face tightening, heavy breathing, rising volume of speech. Explore tying to talk the person down. What is likely to set him/them off. What are some good choice speech for de-escalating the situation. Then the physical. As Furtry says, it's likely you will get hit, whether it's a full shot or a glancing blow. Where do you go from there? Too many practice MA from a postion of superiority or at least equal footing. Practice being at a disadvantage.  Practice being knocked down and working from there. How do you get up? Look for closest weapon/closest target. Meanwhile, try to keep your focus--breathe, think, move.


As a well known MA instructor says "Don't always do what's best for you, do what's worst for your opponent(s)". 

Just some thoughts.


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## tkdguy1982

I agree w/ willfightforbeer, it is best to be aware of what is going on around you.  Like beer said, if you notice someone who is looking at you like get out of my way, then naturally you will be cautious if that person is near you.  Just be aware of what is going on around you, wherever you are.


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## Arthur

I have 3 points Id like to make concerning this thread. Well actually, I have 3 points Id like to expand on as Furtry already made the points.

*Furtry said: * 


> I say learn to deal with getting hit as IT IS GOING to happen. (Personal pet peeve with MA schools that think they can teach you to be 'untouchable')



*Expanding on that Id like to say:*
Training awareness is a very important thing, but it doesnt really address the issue of dealing with the sucker punch. After all if you are aware of the situation, it is no longer a sucker punch. It is certainly preferable to prevent the sucker punch from happening, but one has to guard against allowing their training to drift into the well Ill just never let that happen to me syndrome.

We all remember 15 years ago when many stylists dismissed Gracie Judo by saying things like well I wouldnt let them take me down, and remember shortly after saying that many of those folks being taken down.

Reality is if you want to study true self defense or survival, you need recognize that you might find yourself in any situation. No matter how unlikely a circumstance there was likely somebody before you who was caught in it, and was fully convinced that such an unlikely scenario would ever happen. 

In todays world of high powered drugs, stun guns and other technology it is quite possible to find your first opportunity for self defense to arise when you are waking up on the ground, groggy and already bound. Some of you may be thinking, that sounds extreme or unlikely  If that thought occurred to you, I would implore you to pay more attention to the news.

The majority of martial arts training time is spent on dealing with fight engagements. The emphasis is on a frontal confrontation of known origin. Unfortunately, this does not account for the majority of avoidable self defense situations. Criminals arent looking for a fair fight, they arent looking for an opponent, they are looking for a target. 

Awareness and the mental conviction to act appropriately, is indeed more important than physical skills. The irony is, the more prepared you are, the less of a target you are, the more likely any attacks against you will be by ambush, because that becomes the only way to return you to target status.

Therefore, the better we get at awareness, the more we practice it, the more likely is the fact that what we will have to deal with if in an altercation is indeed the sucker attack.

That said, lets get on with discussing how to actually deal with a sucker punch.

*Furtry  said:*


> Learn to work from contact



This is the first priority in learning to actually deal with a successful sucker punch. For those of you not involved in Systema, or new to it, Ill explain what that means.

In Systema we emphasize contact. We practice receiving blows to all parts of the body. We learn to yield naturally. We teach the body to think for itself and respond to impact by allowing the blow to move us. 

This skill is worked to different degrees over time. We certainly do specific drills to develop the skill (or should I say release the original skill), but we also make this practice a normal part of class. It is not uncommon in class when working with your partner to have someone break ff from his partner and attack you blind. The practices, the general movement practices, the pushing drills and other exercises all lead towards creating a situation where the skill is always on. 

Over time you can create the state where your body will spontaneously yield to impact, whether you are aware of the attack or not. As your body naturally moves as a result of the impellent force, you are put in motion and the conflicts resolution will be powered and created by that movement. This is working from contact.

Developing these skills is the first of 2 steps in learning to deal with a true sucker punch.

Moving on to skill number 2

*Furtry Said:*
Well he didnt say it specifically, but it was there between the lines the way I read it. Heres what I think I read.

Have the mental composure to take action as your body becomes aware youve been attacked. Do not let your ego, fear, or anything else to blind you to what needs to be done. Surviving the sucker punch is the first step, now comes the resolution.

Arthur


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## RachelK

We practiced something along those lines in class recently. Our partners punched us and we had to roll away in the direction of the punch, practicing getting as far away as possible from our partners. We also practiced doing this with our eyes closed. I am new to Systema, and that my was first experience with this kind of drill, creating distance, rather than maintaining contact. Incidentally, our school director was quoted in a local newspaper, she said to scream Fire! when someone attacks you, it will confuse and distract them long enough for you to get away. There are several variations of yelling "Fire" posted on Arthur's board, under the heading "Distraction techniques," some of the phrases made me laugh, but they worked!
Rachel



			
				Tom Gass said:
			
		

> If I saw a pack of thugs walking around in an aggressive manner, a sucker punch would not come as much of a surprise. The scenario dictates the response to some extent. Are you with people? Adults? Men or women?children? Is there an exit available? Is a fight inevitable? They always say it's best to scream Fire! if you want to get a response from bystanders.
> In any case, you should practice the scenario with all the posturing. Work slowly through the different types of approaches i.e. asking for time/directions/a light/spare change. Work the different type of sucker punches such as the haymaker, kick to the groin, head butt. Get accustomed to the pre-fight indicators i.e. clenched fists, antagonist(s) looking around to see if anyone is looking, face tightening, heavy breathing, rising volume of speech. Explore tying to talk the person down. What is likely to set him/them off. What are some good choice speech for de-escalating the situation. Then the physical. As Furtry says, it's likely you will get hit, whether it's a full shot or a glancing blow. Where do you go from there? Too many practice MA from a postion of superiority or at least equal footing. Practice being at a disadvantage.  Practice being knocked down and working from there. How do you get up? Look for closest weapon/closest target. Meanwhile, try to keep your focus--breathe, think, move.
> 
> 
> As a well known MA instructor says "Don't always do what's best for you, do what's worst for your opponent(s)".
> 
> Just some thoughts.


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## Touch Of Death

rkxyz said:
			
		

> We practiced something along those lines in class recently. Our partners punched us and we had to roll away in the direction of the punch, practicing getting as far away as possible from our partners. We also practiced doing this with our eyes closed. I am new to Systema, and that my was first experience with this kind of drill, creating distance, rather than maintaining contact. Incidentally, our school director was quoted in a local newspaper, she said to scream Fire! when someone attacks you, it will confuse and distract them long enough for you to get away. There are several variations of yelling "Fire" posted on Arthur's board, under the heading "Distraction techniques," some of the phrases made me laugh, but they worked!
> Rachel


I suppose that might work, unless, of course, he was holding
a gun.(he he) :snipe2:
Just kidding
sean


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## Clive

In the guidebook it mentions that in the spets training if the instructor thought that the soldier/student was not paying atention to his/her surroundings they would be hit either by hand/stick. Another thing similar to this at a seminar with Sergei, he would hit the wall with a pad and when he did we had to immediately go to the floor (good preparation for going into a situation where there is likely to be a gun).

Just some thoughts on this.


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## Hand Sword

The only true defense against a sucker punch is awareness. If your alert you can deal with it. If not, it will land, and it's go time from there, unless your out!


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## Arthur

> The only true defense against a sucker punch is awareness. If your alert you can deal with it. If not, it will land, and it's go time from there, unless your out!


 
As long as we are discussing awareness... I'm pretty sure this was already mentioned (since I was the one that mentioned it) but... if you are aware of it... it isn't really a sucker punch is it?

Arthur


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## Hand Sword

Correct. Sucker punches aren't seen, they are felt. However, one has to work on their awareness. It is a skill that must be developed. So, that makes it a "technique" to be used as a defense.


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## Hand Sword

We're not in disagreement. My post was a response to those that say they practice this and that to deal with defending against sucker punches.


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## NYCRonin

I have  a lil tale of something about sucker punches..and will put it in when I have more time.
I had wrtten it...but timed out on the site and dont have the time to recreate it now.


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## bushidomartialarts

the best defense against a sucker punch is leaving the bar early.  

seriously, it's not terribly difficult to keep people who might conceivably punch you out of arms reach.  we end up in bad situations when we ignore our better judgment and that little voice in the back of our heads.

think about it.  how many 'surprise attacks' have you experienced that were actually surprises when you thought about it later? it's amazing how much we can see coming when we pay attention.


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## Jimi

I agree that awareness is key in keeping from getting sucker punched. About 20 years ago in the DC Metro area some thugs were running around videoing their attacks on innocent people, much like what was mentioned earlier in this thread. A man with his arms full of groceries was approached by 3 maybe 4 kids no older than 18 or 19. He was quite aware of the possible threat and was trying to keep an eye on all of them, when one got his attention by swearing at him, another threw a clean sucker punch and knocked him out cold. The sick kids then urinated on him which brought him back around. This was shown on the news and many people realized, even trying to be aware may not be enough to keep the sucker punch from landing. Avoiding the sucker punch is even more difficult when you have to worry about it coming from more than one possible attacker. A true sucker punch comes before you persieve a threat, an attacker does not want to turn it into a game of who can react faster, they want to hit you before you know what happened. Once you say, lets train against sucker punches you have defused the true surprise, then you are working simple response drills to an already understood threat. I can not see, hear or smell a sucker punch coming, if some-one can, it's not a sucker punch.


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## Henderson

Jimi said:
			
		

> I can not see, hear or smell a sucker punch coming, if some-one can, it's not a sucker punch.


 
My thoughts exactly!


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## Hand Sword

Yes, and that's why there is no real defense against it. You feel it before you can react.


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## NYCRonin

OK -finally - back here!
There is really no defense against a sucker punch...but it can sometimes be caught early before it lands fully, and does less damage...not at all like a full defence...but relaxation can minimize the damage.
For the vast majority - a sucker punch is only a sucker punch when it fully hits...take that from me, from experience.
Back in 2000, I caught a beauty!
From behind..in a bar...from an unknown that was much larger and younger than I. He came up and hooked off on me from behind, for totally unknown reasons (I am a NYC Corrections Officer...and he 'might' have been past clientele with an agenda...who knows).
He caught me just to the side and slightly behind my right orbital...and I went right down to the floor. I dont remember anything but blindness..but the bartender later told me that I hit the floor and bounced up like on a trampoline and told the (unseen) guy something so stupid to write:
"If your not my friend, I am gonna kill you"> As if a friend would do such a sneak attack! I dont remember the hit...only reactive blindness...and the 'bounce'. The bar tender told me that the attacker looked at me like he saw satan himself and ran out of the place.

The result was a cracked orbital - in 2 or 3 places....and a broken tooth root - and permanent nerve damage to my right upper lip. I can touch my right lip and feel it in my right eye. I looked like the elephant man for about 2 weeks after...hey, he got me - totally off guard. My mistake....and glad the damage was not worse.

In retrospect, I would guess that if somehow I had not bounced up - I would have received a lil stomping.

So, a true sucker punch will only be true when ya catch it...but whatever smidgen of movement I had...allowed me to survive this instance.

Perhaps this thread is better titled - "How to avoid catching a sucker punch" and as mentioned above - awareness is the key.

But, if you are always totally aware - you must restrict certain semi-normal circumstances. Sorta like - stay out of bars...dont drink in public....never let anyone you dont really know get too close, ever. Whenever in public - be semi-slightly-paranoid-on condition yellow/red. 
Thats not easy to do ALL the time. Doing so will surely limit your experience in life, would it not?

Imagine me, I would never be able to get on a subway car to go home after work - at that time - there are too many close bodies! So, should I wait until 2 hours pass to go home in a much more deserted car....not attend a concert....or ever visit The Pub....because I will not feel 100 percent safe?

Thats not living in this city. And not a life I choose to live.

Yeah, that one caught me....and according to my friends at that place, at that time - that hitter is no longer a problem to anyone..by his own actions.

Awareness is key...but living life in condition red is very much being constantly paranoid....who wants to life like that?

You do your best..train your best..attempt to be ready for anything....maybe you will, maybe you wont. Most probably, you will.
But S**T happens!

Nobodys perfect.

Just be careful...to your best ability. 

Some folks die by a lightning bolt or car wreck...despite how good they are at self protective skills and awareness.
Kust try your best...seems to work for the overwhelming majority of folks...even those that have zero training and go through life with their heads firmly implanted in their butts.

In closing - keep yer wits about you, good luck...and remember that preventing a defintive sucker punch is much more a matter of survival...than living in the red all the time and losing out on so much of life in a society of closeness - 'paranoia, deep destroyer' - as some rock group once sang.

Relaxed body will allow for better reactions..as will getting comfortable with being hit in training...IMO.

BTW - I still have the x-rays taken that night -- my lil private reminder - that S**T happens.


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## Robert1234

One of Kadochnikov's principles of survival is to foresee a dangerous situation and if it is perceived then avoid it. When the situation is unavoidable then act without fear or hesitation to terminate the problem. In this light the sucker punch can be anticipated by an experienced "street" person. However, if he puts himself in a situation and weakens his defenses by overindulging, etc. then his awareness is diminished.
An attack from behind, I feel, is better classified as an ambush. Therefore, the avoidance principle takes on a new meaning. Usually an ambush properply planned by an enemy is unavoidable as he picks the time and place and depends on deception for success.


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## RachelK

> In this light the sucker punch can be anticipated by an experienced "street" person.


But I thought everyone agreed that a sucker punch is completely unanticipated...granted, an experienced person will presumably be more aware and avoid being sucker-punched more easily than an untrained person, but even so, isn't a "sucker punch" by definition, one which is not expected? Whether you're a drunken idiot or a hardened street thug or even an expert martialist, surprises do happen. I know that many will disagree and maybe it is possible to heighten your awareness, discretion, and avoidance skills to the point where you can never, ever be taken by surprise. But I have never met anyone who claims to be immune to surprise attacks, and even that assertion, in my opinion, would be quite dangerous and in fact increase the chance of being taken by surprise. After all, surprises are what happen when you do not expect them to, therefore, if you assert that you cannot be taken by surprise, it's actually easier to surprise you, since your mind does not accept the possibility. 

OK, I know that's a downright silly, circular, argument, but I see this so often in discussion of martial arts, when people have questions about particular situations, the response is so often "just avoid those situations." Good advice, of course, but do prevention and preparation have to be mutually exclusive? Or should everyone who posts a question about a particular situation preface it with "...given that you were not aware enough to avoid Situation X, you cannot run away nor talk yourself out of it, how can you defend yourself in Situation X?" Can't we assume that martial artists know that awareness, avoidance, and discretion are critical to personal safety? And I don't agree with the poster who says it's not terribly difficult to keep people who might conceivably punch you out of arm's reach and that surprise attacks don't happen as often as is perceived. But I don't have any statistics to back this up, so let's say they don't happen too often. Even so, it only has to happen once to end a life! And sometimes people do sense the danger, and try to get away, call for help, even fight for their life, but they are killed anyway. Not just amateurs, even professionals are surprised, not just in military ambushes, but when ordinary people suddenly and unexpectedly turn violent, and I don't think it's always accurate to say that awareness would have saved them. That's one of the hard things about life, that good people who are highly trained with much experience are still taken from us unexpectedly. And when such people are killed, others say, "How could this happen to so-and-so, he was so careful, so aware, and with all his expertise, why didn't his skills save him?" I saw this response to the murder of one of the most esteemed of our instructors, and I don't understand it. I'm not a religious person, but I also know I'm not immortal, and I don't believe that it is possible for us to develop the capability to foresee and prevent death, all we can do is increase the odds and hope the universe will look kindly upon us in our most dire situations. 

Even leaving aside violence from other people, danger, by its very nature, is so often unexpected: 


> Some folks die by a lightning bolt or car wreck...despite how good they are at self protective skills and awareness.


I guess the point of my rather long post is, why not prepare anyway, even if you're confident you can avoid such situations, there's no harm and maybe a lot of good in learning the most effective means of surviving extreme situations. I think the original poster's question is a good one, and resulted in many informative responses...including the suggestions about awareness, avoidance, and discretion. 


> An attack from behind, I feel, is better classified as an ambush. Therefore, the avoidance principle takes on a new meaning. Usually an ambush properply planned by an enemy is unavoidable as he picks the time and place and depends on deception for success.


Ambush, sucker punch, surprise attack...I think the original poster was asking how to handle such situations, not what to call them.

Best wishes,
Rachel


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## Robert1234

My understanding of a sucker punch is where the assailant does something to divert the attention of the "victim." Then he will be able to deliver a punch quickly because the victim has let down his guard somehow or maybe moved his hands and arms to protect the area of his body the assailant led the victim to believe would be the actual target. Or got the attention of the intended victim with some other means by a means of a third person. Then again fired off a punch onto the unsuspecting person.

So to identify the type of attack is important in order to address its means of defense and preparation for same. That is why I made the distinction. For example: the previous writer wrote, "Relaxed body will allow for better reactions..as will getting comfortable with being hit in training...IMO." Preparing your body to be relaxed even in violent situations is a matter of proper training. Many martial arts train with a sports-mindset. Conditioning for maximum strength, wind, timing, etc. Survival in the street is a different matter. There are no rules. Even the so-called contests without rules still don't allow eye gouges and groin attacks. Or the use of knives or guns, etc. But OK I will agree with your statement,"Ambush, sucker punch, surprise attack...I think the original poster was asking how to handle such situations, not what to call them." My definitions are different because preparing for an ambush focuses on awareness and avoidance unless it is a military ambush. Finding and engaging the enemy is the goal.
 
Training the body and mind to be relaxed is a matter of conditioning. Take the couch potatoe, she/he will probably tense up the most when violently confronted. So active training is necessary acting out violent confrontations to all parts of the body including eyes, throat, etc. This must be done in slow motion. The reflexes will remember these slow movements and when an unexpected force is pressed against the person the body will react accordingly instinctively. The result will be to lessen or completely avoid the vector of force.

If NYCRONIN hadn't fallen down it is possible he would have been injured more. One of the training methods in Kodochnikov's Russian Style is how to fall without injuring one's spine. Most Judo and Sambo practitioners end up with serious spinal problems. Why? They are practised as sports on mats. Full force falling causes these injuries. Falling techniques used for landing on cement and other hard surfaces are of a different nature. Again relaxing while falling is the key. The whole body must be relaxed and being unafraid of falling is essential. For example, if a much larger attacker throws a punch or knife your way you must not be there to receive the assault. Falling/rolling removes you from not only the point of impact but allows you to escape or reposition youself to terminate the attack.

Street persons, in my experience, are for the most part, able to anticipate "sucker-punches". Why? Because they practise for it. Prisoners have alot of time to practise and train together combining their knowledge and mistakes for future use. I didn't mean to imply that they are immune. No one is as has been pointed out. Police wear protective garments and carry lethal weapons hoping to "even the playing field." I classify police as street persons also. People who must live or operate on the street in dangerous areas all prepare for unpleasant encounters by various means. 

So call it what you will but proper training is the only defense against any form of attack. No one gets out of this world alive so have fun! 
Best regards from Ukraine.


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