# MMA bashing on Kung Fu



## Topdots (Aug 31, 2019)

So people say Wing Chun is ********. Well here is an old clip from the British Colony of China. Video taken in Hong Kong. Like you know how there are good football players and bad football players. I think Kung Fu is the same. There are bad Wing Chun and good Wing Chun fighters. You can find bad and good skills in all areas of life. There good politicians and then there are bad politicians you know. Enjoy the video. In the first video you witness good Wing Chun fighter vs Muay Thai. 







So there are channels like Fight Commentary. And yeah there are many bad kung Fu fighters out there. But as i mentioned above. There are good fighters and bad fighters. Just training Wing Chun alone does not make you into Bruce Lee. You also need fights experiments. Also because there are so many bad Kung Fu fighters in China. MMA is bashing on Kung Fu guys. I mean training Wing Chun alone without fight experience. Does not make you into a fighter.


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## skribs (Aug 31, 2019)

Everyone bashes on everyone.  I've even been in arguments on r/Taekwondo where the Taekwondoists there have no respect for Taekwondo.  You can rage over it, or you can ignore the opinions of others.


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## skribs (Aug 31, 2019)

There are a lot of things that play into how effective a fighter you will be:

Experience
Quality of instruction
Dedication to practice
Natural talent
Quality of training partners
Fit with the martial art
Physical traits, such as height, weight, reach, stamina, strength, flexibility
Creativity, adaptability, improvisation skills
If you take an amateur MMA fighter who is not in great shape, and put him against someone who is 6'4", 300 lb of pure muscle, who has been in several fights for his life and come out unscathed, but whose martial arts base is Ameri-do-te and Rex Kwon Do, the guy training the silly arts will come out on top.  

In the case of the 2nd video - the Wing Chun guy wasn't quick enough to get his hands up in front of the punch, which (from my _very_ limited understanding of Wing Chun) is kind of the point.


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## Headhunter (Aug 31, 2019)

Don't worry about it. People can say what they want it doesn't matter to me I just keep doing what I do and forget about the rest. Strangers on the internet have 0 effect on my beliefs and opinions on systems. Just train that's all that matters


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## Topdots (Aug 31, 2019)

skribs said:


> Experience
> Physical traits, such as height, weight, reach, stamina, strength, flexibility
> In the case of the 2nd video - the Wing Chun guy wasn't quick enough to get his hands up in front of the punch, which (from my _very_ limited understanding of Wing Chun) is kind of the point.



Well I agree with these. Because if you compare these two videos. The guy fighting Muay Thai has experience, strong muscles and is used to being hit in the face. There are so many Kung Fu amateurs out there. These people never had a fight in their life and call them self kung fu masters. That is big problem for Kung Fu these days. Look at this Wing Chun guy. He is so skinny and never got hit in his life. And he is crazy enough to Challenge MMA fighter that has at least fought 20 MMA matches. If you got zero fight experience. You should not go and challenge people with fight experience. In China this happens and it makes Kung Fu look so bad.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2019)

Topdots said:


> Well I agree with these. Because if you compare these two videos. The guy fighting Muay Thai has experience, strong muscles and is used to being hit in the face. There are so many Kung Fu amateurs out there. These people never had a fight in their life and call them self kung fu masters. That is big problem for Kung Fu these days. Look at this Wing Chun guy. He is so skinny and never got hit in his life. And he is crazy enough to Challenge MMA fighter that has at least fought 20 MMA matches. If you got zero fight experience. You should not go and challenge people with fight experience. In China this happens and it makes Kung Fu look so bad.



And in any other country there is no shortage of places to get that experience.

Get a few cheeky C class fights in before you go straight in to challenge matches.

The challenge match used to be the armour that protected the black belt ego. If you wanted to spar it would be their best guy for sheep stations. And so nobody did it.






And then suddenly with MMA martial artists started getting together without ego and sparred and worked out and not only didn't it matter if super sensai got manhandled by some skinny wrestler from nowhere. It was applauded as a victory for the school that they attracted in that kind of talent.

And guys got better fast.

And the kung fu schools that do it also get better fast.

And so if your aim is to be fulfilled rather than happy. To be exceptional rather than comfortable that is the experiences you need to chase. And don't let those who strive for mediocrity convince you otherwise.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2019)

Don't let it bother you.  It's only a hand full of MMA guys that actually care about stuff like that.  All of the other MMA guys are usually training and focusing on their goals which doesn't include trying to show that "Wing Chun sucks. "

Most of that noise come from MMA fans and not the fighters themselves.


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## Martial D (Aug 31, 2019)

Topdots said:


> So people say Wing Chun is ********. Well here is an old clip from the British Colony of China. Video taken in Hong Kong. Like you know how there are good football players and bad football players. I think Kung Fu is the same. There are bad Wing Chun and good Wing Chun fighters. You can find bad and good skills in all areas of life. There good politicians and then there are bad politicians you know. Enjoy the video. In the first video you witness good Wing Chun fighter vs Muay Thai.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a long time WC guy, I learned my lesson well before YouTube existed, unfortunately. Maybe I'll tell you about it sometime.

Athleticism is quite important, but technique is always a real factor, and not all systems are created equal.

As such,It is possible to be successful with classical wing chun, just very unlikely.


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## drop bear (Aug 31, 2019)

skribs said:


> If you take an amateur MMA fighter who is not in great shape, and put him against someone who is 6'4", 300 lb of pure muscle, who has been in several fights for his life and come out unscathed, but whose martial arts base is Ameri-do-te and Rex Kwon Do, the guy training the silly arts will come out on top.



My issue is this does not happen by accident. Your fast, fit and properly conditioned fighter doesn't just occur by magic. And if it is physicality is a deciding factor in winning a fight then Mabye dedicate some time towards gaining some.

Training takes care of that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> My issue is this does not happen by accident. Your fast, fit and properly conditioned fighter doesn't just occur by magic. And if it is physicality is a deciding factor in winning a fight then Mabye dedicate some time towards gaining some.
> 
> Training takes care of that.


Most of it doesnt happen by accident. But im pretty sure i can guarantee you, no matter how hard i train i wont become anywhere close to 6'4", and no amount of bulking up theough muscle will make me 300 pounds-that would only happen if i got out of shape and put on a *lot* of fat.


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## skribs (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> My issue is this does not happen by accident. Your fast, fit and properly conditioned fighter doesn't just occur by magic. And if it is physicality is a deciding factor in winning a fight then Mabye dedicate some time towards gaining some.
> 
> Training takes care of that.



Fitness and technique are two different things.  So are knowledge and experience.

We have some students at my dojang with horribly sloppy forms, who can't remember half the steps, who are amazing sparrers.  We have others who have beautiful techniques, but absolutely suck when there's another person (even if it's just a drill). 

I've seen professional dancers with amazing body control who can't understand the difference between a side kick and a roundhouse kick.  I've sparred old guys who look like they can barely move when they're alone, but I can't touch them when I spar them.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Most of it doesnt happen by accident. But im pretty sure i can guarantee you, no matter how hard i train i wont become anywhere close to 6'4", and no amount of bulking up theough muscle will make me 300 pounds-that would only happen if i got out of shape and put on a *lot* of fat.



You will only fight a 6'4" guy in the ring if you are a gigantic fatty though as well.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> Fitness and technique are two different things.  So are knowledge and experience.
> 
> We have some students at my dojang with horribly sloppy forms, who can't remember half the steps, who are amazing sparrers.  We have others who have beautiful techniques, but absolutely suck when there's another person (even if it's just a drill).
> 
> I've seen professional dancers with amazing body control who can't understand the difference between a side kick and a roundhouse kick.  I've sparred old guys who look like they can barely move when they're alone, but I can't touch them when I spar them.



So you have a school full of people just developing randomly?

Because that kind of shouldn't happen.


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## skribs (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> So you have a school full of people just developing randomly?
> 
> Because that kind of shouldn't happen.



We have a school full of individuals, who have different parts of the curriculum they connect more to, who have different natural talents.  

Even in MMA, you have people who are strikers and grapplers.  You have people that pick up fighting and in a few years are pros, and others who have been taking martial arts their whole lives and can't seem to win a match.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You will only fight a 6'4" guy in the ring if you are a gigantic fatty though as well.


Depends on the people scheduling the fight/the organization. I believe that certain full contact karate tournaments have open weight classes, and in a "challenge match" i doubt they're focusing on weight class.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2019)

skribs said:


> We have a school full of individuals, who have different parts of the curriculum they connect more to, who have different natural talents.
> 
> Even in MMA, you have people who are strikers and grapplers.  You have people that pick up fighting and in a few years are pros, and others who have been taking martial arts their whole lives and can't seem to win a match.



Yeah but people who train get better.

So they will get fitter, stronger and get better technique. This is because the training has an effect on these attributes.

People who train at grappling become grapplers. People who train at striking become strikers. 

It is not a group of people advancing randomly. There is a method.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Depends on the people scheduling the fight/the organization. I believe that certain full contact karate tournaments have open weight classes, and in a "challenge match" i doubt they're focusing on weight class.



Regardless it is kind of semantics.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Regardless it is kind of semantics.


My point is just, no matter what school you train at or how hard you go, there are some people that you (general) you wont be able to match with athleticism.


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## skribs (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but people who train get better.
> 
> So they will get fitter, stronger and get better technique. This is because the training has an effect on these attributes.
> 
> ...



And some people who train at grappling suck at grappling, and switch to striking and pick it up right away.  People are individuals.


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## skyeisonfire (Sep 6, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Don't worry about it. People can say what they want it doesn't matter to me I just keep doing what I do and forget about the rest. Strangers on the internet have 0 effect on my beliefs and opinions on systems. Just train that's all that matters



agreed...I'm the queen of getting bashed.  I ignore it all. I think I was called a "cup cake" once on a reddit forum but my response was more like FU! Whatever.  There a lot of those people out there who think they are the gift to MA or MMA.  But like someone said here, there are GOOD martial artist, then those that are bad.  You see these YouTubers only focus on showing the bad against MMA guy.  Of course they are going to loose.  Hey, anything to get the likes and subscribe I guess.  Opinions are plenty by those who are delusional.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> And some people who train at grappling suck at grappling, and switch to striking and pick it up right away.  People are individuals.



Most people who suck at grappling and train get better at it. 

Otherwise I would wonder if the training was working.


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## skribs (Sep 6, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Most people who suck at grappling and train get better at it.
> 
> Otherwise I would wonder if the training was working.



I don't even know where to begin with this, there is so much wrong with your thinking.  Do you think that everyone has the same level of aptitude?  Do you think that everyone learns everything in a linear rate?

When I was in school, there were some kids that were A students, some B students, some C students.  Some people always got As and Bs in math and science, and struggled mightily in English and History.  Others did great in English and Math, but bad in Science and History. 

Some people are better at recreating forms and focusing on the details of the techniques.  Others are better at reading people.  Some people enjoy one aspect of the art over others.  The parts you find more enjoyable and connect better with, are often the parts you'll improve on the most.

To assume that people will learn everything in the art at the same rate is an assumption so baffling to me, I can't even comprehend it.  People aren't robots.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2019)

The haters have no intent on trying to find someone that is good in traditional martial arts.  This is a yearly lei-tai event where martial artist from different fighting systems fight each other.  There are others like it around the world, but no one has ever used these guys to prove that traditional martial arts sucks.  It's always pick the guy who is the worst at something and then claim that everyone who trains the same thing is just has horrible.





I've sparred amateur MMA fighter, boxers, and  amateur Muay Thai fighters and they never walked away thinking I suck.  Most fighters tend to spar with those who are on the same level or on a higher level because they are looking to either maintain their skills and get better.  You can't improve by always sparring against people you know you can easily beat. 

I was challenged by a "celebrity"  TV show host who wanted me to fly all the way to china to fight him, so that he could prove that he could beat me up.  What kind of nonsense is that.  So I flipped it on him and told him. That he was weak minded.  If he truly believes that he can beat me so easy then why would he want to fight me?  That's just being a bully.  If he wanted to fight me because he thought I would be a good opponent.  Then he must think my martial arts training is good enough to fight against him, which in that case, there's no need for me to take a long trip, spend my money and time to meet someone I don't know, to prove such an insignificant thing as "my martial arts training doesn't suck."  I told him he was either a bully that preyed on those who he thought were weaker or he admits that what I do is effective.

Fighters in general always try to prove themselves by fighting upward in the ranking and not downward.  Anyone who brags about fighting someone they know they can easily beat is trying to prove to themselves that they don't suck, but at another persons expense and risk.  The key is to not give people like that any validity.  The "battle" with them is not a physical issue, it's a mental one, so beat them mentally without trying to prove what you can do and they will quickly fall away.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> My point is just, no matter what school you train at or how hard you go, there are some people that you (general) you wont be able to match with athleticism.


That is true. You will match with people who are better/stronger athletically. Those are the people you have to beat with technique and craftiness.


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## Hanzou (Sep 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> And some people who train at grappling suck at grappling, and switch to striking and pick it up right away.  People are individuals.



No, they get their **** handed to them on the mat, can't handle it and switch to something that protects their ego. 

There's no way you can train and advance in grappling and not get better at it.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> The haters have no intent on trying to find someone that is good in traditional martial arts.  This is a yearly lei-tai event where martial artist from different fighting systems fight each other.  There are others like it around the world, but no one has ever used these guys to prove that traditional martial arts sucks.  It's always pick the guy who is the worst at something and then claim that everyone who trains the same thing is just has horrible.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was a very enjoyable and fun video to watch. It reminded me a lot of the PKA fights I did back in the 80's-90's. A lot of variety in technique/style and size of opponent. 

One reason MMA became more popular over PKA (and such)is that they do not stop when they go to the ground. That takes a different/higher level of conditioning and fight methodology. 
Fight Science  is aptly named. When I was in the Olympic circuit, my trainer was very good at training me for the last minute of the 1st round vs. the 3rd round or the last 30 seconds of a match etc... There are mental-physical connections that can be triggered with training. If @drop bear thinks this falls under conditioning, I agree.


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## skribs (Sep 6, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> No, they get their **** handed to them on the mat, can't handle it and switch to something that protects their ego.
> 
> There's no way you can train and advance in grappling and not get better at it.



Get better at it, yes.  But some people will make small steps and others great leaps.

I did 3 years of wrestling in middle school.  Did I get better?  Yes.  Did I ever win a match?  Only when I was fighting a weight class down.  I sucked at it.

I'm taking hapkido now.  It's difficult for me.  Am I better than I was a year ago?  Yes.  Do I feel confident with it yet?  No.

My comments aren't that people can't get better.  My comments are regarding the idea that people get better at everything at the same rate.


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## Mitlov (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That was a very enjoyable and fun video to watch. It reminded me a lot of the PKA fights I did back in the 80's-90's. A lot of variety in technique/style and size of opponent.
> 
> One reason MMA became more popular over PKA (and such)is that they do not stop when they go to the ground. That takes a different/higher level of conditioning and fight methodology.
> Fight Science  is aptly named. When I was in the Olympic circuit, my trainer was very good at training me for the last minute of the 1st round vs. the 3rd round or the last 30 seconds of a match etc... There are mental-physical connections that can be triggered with training. If @drop bear thinks this falls under conditioning, I agree.



I would say different, not better. I would not say that Rico Verhoeven is lacking ANYTHING in terms of conditioning.  Dude's a machine.

In terms of fight methodology, when you gain breadth of technique, you can lose depth. You'll see a more sophisticated striking game in Glory kickboxing than in the UFC simply because of that rule difference. I personally much prefer watching kickboxing over MMA because of that stand up game.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 6, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> No, they get their **** handed to them on the mat, can't handle it and switch to something that protects their ego.
> 
> There's no way you can train and advance in grappling and not get better at it.


At my dojo i could be training grappling pretty extensively, but i dont. I did for a bit, and yes i got my *** handed to me many times over, but honestly I'm fine with that. My issue was simply that i preferred weapons more. And its not like i was amazing eith weapons/i had more than enough bruises to show i was _not _good when i started, and i still regularly lose pretty badly if I go up against a couple people at my dojo. 

It's not always about ego.


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## Mitlov (Sep 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> Get better at it, yes.  But some people will make small steps and others great leaps.
> 
> I did 3 years of wrestling in middle school.  Did I get better?  Yes.  Did I ever win a match?  Only when I was fighting a weight class down.  I sucked at it.
> 
> ...



Also, although everyone will get better (at different rates), people have different upper limits.

My wife is a natural runner. I enjoy lifting weights. I have tried to get better at running, and she did CrossFit for a couple years. I got better at running, but it was improvement at a glacial piece, and I'll never run a marathon (like she has). She got better at weightlifting, but always struggled with it, and her PRs are less than half mine even though I'm only 10% heavier than her.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 6, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> There's no way you can train and advance in grappling and not get better at it.


Agree with you 100% there.

The more that you wrestle, the more take down resistance ability that you will develop, the harder that your opponent can take you down. Your body will develop a natural "vibration" force to counter your opponent's take down.

If you have taken down your opponent by one of your wrestling skill over 1000 times, the chance that you may make that technique to work for the 1001th time will be high.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is true. You will match with people who are better/stronger athletically. Those are the people you have to beat with technique and craftiness.



Athleticism is something you get better at if you train as well. 

The reason you would see individual talent appear randomly is if you grabbed a bunch of untrained people. 

If I shoved fifty people in a pool. Some might be able to figure out how to swim.

If I went to a swimming school they really should all know how to swim.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> I don't even know where to begin with this, there is so much wrong with your thinking.  Do you think that everyone has the same level of aptitude?  Do you think that everyone learns everything in a linear rate?
> 
> When I was in school, there were some kids that were A students, some B students, some C students.  Some people always got As and Bs in math and science, and struggled mightily in English and History.  Others did great in English and Math, but bad in Science and History.
> 
> ...



School is a pretty lack luster training example though and so relies more on natural talent.

This is why tutors are very important for academic success.


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That was a very enjoyable and fun video to watch. It reminded me a lot of the PKA fights I did back in the 80's-90's. A lot of variety in technique/style and size of opponent.
> 
> One reason MMA became more popular over PKA (and such)is that they do not stop when they go to the ground. That takes a different/higher level of conditioning and fight methodology.
> Fight Science  is aptly named. When I was in the Olympic circuit, my trainer was very good at training me for the last minute of the 1st round vs. the 3rd round or the last 30 seconds of a match etc... There are mental-physical connections that can be triggered with training. If @drop bear thinks this falls under conditioning, I agree.



Yeah pretty much. I keep hearing about this natural toughness or athletasism and all these other attributes people think are some how magical.

"We are the same level of technical skill but he always wins because he is fitter than me. I guess there is nothing I can do about genetics"

Or Mabye these martial artists that are getting physically out performed need to find a better strength and conditioning coach.

Mabye if they are getting out disciplined or beaten mentally they need a better motivational coach.


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## Headhunter (Sep 6, 2019)

drop bear said:


> School is a pretty lack luster training example though and so relies more on natural talent.
> 
> This is why tutors are very important for academic success.


What a load of rubbish. I never had a tutor in my life and certainly wasn't naturally academic but I did just fine and ended up in the above average category for all school exams I took


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## drop bear (Sep 6, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> What a load of rubbish. I never had a tutor in my life and certainly wasn't naturally academic but I did just fine and ended up in the above average category for all school exams I took



Not really sure what point you are trying to make. Because we don't know what sort of training would have made what effects on the results you had. 

But well done on your exams I guess.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That takes a different/higher level of conditioning and fight methodology.


That's true but it also deals out a lot more punishment and not everyone is into the "ground and pound" of fighting.  People gotta go to work the next morning. You can't sell anything looking like this. ha ha ha.

* Him*:  Welcome to McDonald's can I take your order please.






Me:


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When I was in the Olympic circuit, my trainer was very good at training me for the last minute of the 1st round vs. the 3rd round or the last 30 seconds of a match etc... There are mental-physical connections that can be triggered with training. If @drop bear thinks this falls under conditioning, I agree.


I knew some of the guys in that video and I trained with them from time to time.  They trained hard and actually made me improve the level of training that I did for myself and the students.  My first time sparring with them, I gassed out big time.  I didn't like that feeling, that weakness in me, so I changed up my training and added a lot of cardio and endurance training.  I wanted to be able to fight at 90% with burst of 100% without gassing out.  I wanted my last punch to be just as dangerous as the first. 

It basically was almost 2 hours of non-stop movement. muscle conditioning and technique conditioning, get water keep going.  Cardio and footwork conditioning, get water keep going.  If you have to take a break then let it be a short one.  We got 20 - 30 more reps to go.  We would crank out almost 300 push- ups, 3 times as many punches, 3 times as many kicks, and when that was done, get water put on sparring gear application training 1 minute fighting your opponent after that minute was up you get a fresh opponent.

I miss those training sessions.  If the student didn't know how to use Jow Ga by the end of the month then they just weren't trying, but at least they were in better shape and their forms got better.

Unfortunately people only train as hard as they think they need to. People often set a low bar thinking it's "high enough" until they mix it up with someone who is in better conditioning.  I'll get back to that level of training again once I finish my rehab.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> Get better at it, yes. But some people will make small steps and others great leaps.
> 
> I did 3 years of wrestling in middle school. Did I get better? Yes. Did I ever win a match? Only when I was fighting a weight class down. I sucked at it.


You have to put things in perspective.  Were you better later on in your training than you were when you first started?  Were you better in comparison to who? All of that makes a difference and is equally important as being the best. 

Sucking at something means a person is just as horrible as he/she was when they first started.  They haven't improved in any shape or form after all of that training.  If that is happening, then a person can truly say that they suck at it.  It doesn't mean that you have to stop training because it may be something you enjoy doing,  but just embrace that you suck and keep going.  It's like people who suck at singing but still sing.  My wife is a horrible singer and it hurts my ears but I know it makes her happy so, I take the hit lol.

Now if someone sucks and that makes them unhappy, then that's when it's time to call it quits. In terms of sports, sometimes it's a wrong place and time situation.  My first year in high school track was nothing but me losing.  There was a lot of of competition from the senior class.  By the time I was a senior all of my tough competition were long out of high school. I made it to City but not State.  I won about 97% of my races.  Part of my success was because I trained hard.  The bigger part was because those who were better graduated. lol


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I knew some of the guys in that video and I trained with them from time to time.  They trained hard and actually made me improve the level of training that I did for myself and the students.  My first time sparring with them, I gassed out big time.  I didn't like that feeling, that weakness in me, so I changed up my training and added a lot of cardio and endurance training.  I wanted to be able to fight at 90% with burst of 100% without gassing out.  I wanted my last punch to be just as dangerous as the first.
> 
> It basically was almost 2 hours of non-stop movement. muscle conditioning and technique conditioning, get water keep going.  Cardio and footwork conditioning, get water keep going.  If you have to take a break then let it be a short one.  We got 20 - 30 more reps to go.  We would crank out almost 300 push- ups, 3 times as many punches, 3 times as many kicks, and when that was done, get water put on sparring gear application training 1 minute fighting your opponent after that minute was up you get a fresh opponent.
> 
> ...


For two plus years leading up to the trials I trained 6 days/week 4 1/2 hours a day and worked a straight 40 hour/week job. My shift changed from time to time so I had to adjust my training hours. Plus we were already growing our farming operation. I look back and have no idea how I maintained the pace. I was/am clean, have never done any enhancements or supplements other than amino acids. My anaerobic capacity has always been very high. 
Now a days I struggle with doing some kind of formal exercise for 30 minutes to a hour 6 days/week. Ironically, put me in the hay field and I can still outlast most guys.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's true but it also deals out a lot more punishment and not everyone is into the "ground and pound" of fighting.  People gotta go to work the next morning. You can't sell anything looking like this. ha ha ha.
> 
> * Him*:  Welcome to McDonald's can I take your order please.
> 
> ...


Dude on the right is having a BAD day!


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I trained 6 days/week 4 1/2 hours a day and worked a straight 40 hour/week job


 Cut this down to 2 hours with maybe 5 hours on Saturday and I'll come join you lol.   It would be difficult for me to hold anything close to this pace with the job that I have now, which is mentally draining.  By the time I get home I just want to do nothing , eat (maybe) and sleep.  I've nodded off at least 5 times since 9pm.  lol. Once while typing this much.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 6, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Dude on the right is having a BAD day!


Yeah I don't want any of my days to be like that.  lol  people can call me a wimp all the want lol.  Fake Kung Fu master.  Yep. call me that too. I have no intention of taking a beating like that in any of my life scenarios.  lol


----------



## skribs (Sep 6, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> You have to put things in perspective.  Were you better later on in your training than you were when you first started?  Were you better in comparison to who? All of that makes a difference and is equally important as being the best.
> 
> Sucking at something means a person is just as horrible as he/she was when they first started.  They haven't improved in any shape or form after all of that training.  If that is happening, then a person can truly say that they suck at it.  It doesn't mean that you have to stop training because it may be something you enjoy doing,  but just embrace that you suck and keep going.  It's like people who suck at singing but still sing.  My wife is a horrible singer and it hurts my ears but I know it makes her happy so, I take the hit lol.
> 
> Now if someone sucks and that makes them unhappy, then that's when it's time to call it quits. In terms of sports, sometimes it's a wrong place and time situation.  My first year in high school track was nothing but me losing.  There was a lot of of competition from the senior class.  By the time I was a senior all of my tough competition were long out of high school. I made it to City but not State.  I won about 97% of my races.  Part of my success was because I trained hard.  The bigger part was because those who were better graduated. lol



The context wasn't about me.  The context is about people having different aptitude for different parts of martial arts.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Get better at it, yes.  But some people will make small steps and others great leaps.
> 
> I did 3 years of wrestling in middle school.  Did I get better?  Yes.  Did I ever win a match?  Only when I was fighting a weight class down.  I sucked at it.
> 
> ...



I don't believe that anyone ever said that everyone improves at the same rate. The point is that you WILL improve. I was never the best grappler in my old gym, but I was a hell of a lot better at grappling when I left than when I first stepped on the mat.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2019)

More to the topic of discussion; Kung Fu needs more of this;

Chinese Martial Arts Ground Fighting | Practical Hung Kyun


----------



## skribs (Sep 7, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I don't believe that anyone ever said that everyone improves at the same rate. The point is that you WILL improve. I was never the best grappler in my old gym, but I was a hell of a lot better at grappling when I left than when I first stepped on the mat.



Drop Bear was saying that if one person is better at forms and another person is better at sparring, then the curriculum is suspect.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Drop Bear was saying that if one person is better at forms and another person is better at sparring, then the curriculum is suspect.



I read it more as if people are developing all over the place instead of in a straight line then there's a problem. A mid level rank should be seeing improvement in all of the areas of instruction. A black belt in any given system should be competent to good in all areas of instruction. Everyone should be getting better at what they're doing over time. 

A black belt shouldn't have "sloppy forms" but great sparring skill. If that happens then something's wrong with the curriculum.


----------



## skribs (Sep 7, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I read it more as if people are developing all over the place instead of in a straight line then there's a problem. A mid level rank should be seeing improvement in all of the areas of instruction. A black belt in any given system should be competent to good in all areas of instruction. Everyone should be getting better at what they're doing over time.
> 
> A black belt shouldn't have "sloppy forms" but great sparring skill. If that happens then something's wrong with the curriculum.



And you can be improving in all areas, and show much bigger gains in 1 area.  Say someone starts out, and their forms are at a 2/10, and sparring at 4/10.  If, after a year, their forms are 3/10, and their sparring is 8/10, they've improved in all areas, but their biggest gains have been sparring.

The more diverse your curriculum, the more this hits.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 7, 2019)

Some of you have weird ideas about training.

There seems to be a gargantuan gap between people that train for performance and people that train according to non performance related grading systems here.

I guess once the 'martial' part of martial arts is removed, the training becomes rather arbitrary..to the point those involved completely lose touch with reality.

Reason #347 that TMA needs an enema.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Drop Bear was saying that if one person is better at forms and another person is better at sparring, then the curriculum is suspect.


If someone is trying to become “better at forms”, or believes that the point of forms is to become better at doing them, then they do not understand forms.  At all.

Depending on how sparring is done, it can be a useful exercise. But not all sparring is of equal quality, so it depends.

In my personal opinion, sparring is often given more weight than it deserves.  It is not an absolute necessity in developing useful skills.


----------



## Buka (Sep 7, 2019)

Fighting against resistance is useful in learning how to fight against resistance. 
It's where sparring and rolling come in. It's where the "Martial" in Martial Arts comes in.

If a student of the Arts needs to defend themselves in a real self defense situation, which guy do you want to be, the guy who has always trained against resistance, or the guy who never really trained that?

I know which line I'm getting in. I'm getting in that looooooong mf'ker.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 7, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I read it more as if people are developing all over the place instead of in a straight line then there's a problem. A mid level rank should be seeing improvement in all of the areas of instruction. A black belt in any given system should be competent to good in all areas of instruction. Everyone should be getting better at what they're doing over time.
> 
> A black belt shouldn't have "sloppy forms" but great sparring skill. If that happens then something's wrong with the curriculum.


I would have to put a higher percentage on the student. It could be that they are really into sparring and tournaments or that they are lazy about learning/practicing their forms. What does that have to do with a curriculum?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 7, 2019)

And then this interesting video came up.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2019)

drop bear said:


> And then this interesting video came up.



Wow, he's really changed. It's interesting what MMA and Bjj will do to a martial arts nerd like that.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 7, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Wow, he's really changed. It's interesting what MMA and Bjj will do to a martial arts nerd like that.



He was probably genetically predisposed to fighting. Most MMA guys are.


----------



## skribs (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> If someone is trying to become “better at forms”, or believes that the point of forms is to become better at doing them, then they do not understand forms. At all.



Maybe not in your art.


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> If someone is trying to become “better at forms”, or believes that the point of forms is to become better at doing them, then they do not understand forms.  At all.



There are international competition circuits where people compete in forms as a performance art. They train in forms for a different reason than you do, but it is slightly arrogant and unproductive to call popular international sports with well-developed competition circuits "wrong."  That's like speed-skaters calling figure skating "wrong."


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 7, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> There are international competition circuits where people compete in forms as a performance art. They train in forms for a different reason than you do, but it is slightly arrogant and unproductive to call popular international sports with well-developed competition circuits "wrong."  That's like speed-skaters calling figure skating "wrong."


Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.


----------



## skribs (Sep 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.



Those 3 are in perfect sync.  I'm impressed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> The context wasn't about me.  The context is about people having different aptitude for different parts of martial arts.


My fault.  misread.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> More to the topic of discussion; Kung Fu needs more of this;
> 
> Chinese Martial Arts Ground Fighting | Practical Hung Kyun


Nice those guys should at least kick at the shins. For a little target practice but other than that. It's good to see them train it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> In my personal opinion, sparring is often given more weight than it deserves. It is not an absolute necessity in developing useful skills.


I was with you right up to this point.  Can't learn to catch a ball simply by going through the form of catching a ball.  Fighting is a 100 times more complex than catching a ball so sparring is going to be critical to learning how to actually apply the skills.  This is why we see "kung fu masters" hop in the ring and they stand like they have never been attacked before. Looking totally lost.  

I think sparring is underestimated and that hard sparring is given more value that what it's worth.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.


I don't like it, but I don't hate it either.  Kind of a no opinion perspective.  It's not my thing so I don't get excited about it.  I was impressed at how well they timed their movements, but not so much from a martial arts perspective but just a general perspective of how difficult it is to sync human movement

Things like this are always beyond my capabilities and things like amazes because of what humans are capable of doing, but does nothing for my martial arts interest.  Takes a special kind of person to be willing to train this hard to do stuff like this.  I take the easy way out.  All I need is for my opponent to be worst than me and I'll have a good day. lol.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Maybe not in your art.


Ok.  In my art forms are not simply performance art.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> There are international competition circuits where people compete in forms as a performance art. They train in forms for a different reason than you do, but it is slightly arrogant and unproductive to call popular international sports with well-developed competition circuits "wrong."  That's like speed-skaters calling figure skating "wrong."


And of course I am completely aware of this.  You are correct, these things exist.  They are a more recent development as performance art.  This is not what forms were originally meant to be.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was with you right up to this point.  Can't learn to catch a ball simply by going through the form of catching a ball.  Fighting is a 100 times more complex than catching a ball so sparring is going to be critical to learning how to actually apply the skills.  This is why we see "kung fu masters" hop in the ring and they stand like they have never been attacked before. Looking totally lost.
> 
> I think sparring is underestimated and that hard sparring is given more value that what it's worth.


Sure, sparring can fill that purpose.  Other drills can also fill that purpose.  It’s ok to disagree.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, sparring can fill that purpose.  Other drills can also fill that purpose.  It’s ok to disagree.


I do better than that.  I'll give myself an opportunity to learn something new.   What other drills can be done that involves the same calculation, strategy, tactics, evasions, attacking, blocking, awareness, nerve and adrenaline management, cardio, observation, aware, and the act of applying a technique against someone who is "free style" attacking you?


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, sparring can fill that purpose.  Other drills can also fill that purpose.  It’s ok to disagree.


The Worst saying I hear in the work environment is "that is the way we have always done it". The same is true in MA. I love the history and uniformity of TMA but there is no substitute for testing you technique against people of different disciplines, ilk, and intention. You learn just as much about what does Not work as what does.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.



I certainly enjoy it. However, I put  it in the place of competitive dance or ballet since I don't believe you can develop actual fighting ability from its practice.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I do better than that.  I'll give myself an opportunity to learn something new.   What other drills can be done that involves the same calculation, strategy, tactics, evasions, attacking, blocking, awareness, nerve and adrenaline management, cardio, observation, aware, and the act of applying a technique against someone who is "free style" attacking you?


All kinds of gradual escalation of working techniques against partners.  It is more scripted than free sparring, of course.

And I am sure you will not be satisfied with that answer.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The Worst saying I hear in the work environment is "that is the way we have always done it". The same is true in MA. I love the history and uniformity of TMA but there is no substitute for testing you technique against people of different disciplines, ilk, and intention. You learn just as much about what does Not work as what does.


I didn’t say “that is how we have always done it”.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> Fighting against resistance is useful in learning how to fight against resistance.
> It's where sparring and rolling come in. It's where the "Martial" in Martial Arts comes in.
> 
> If a student of the Arts needs to defend themselves in a real self defense situation, which guy do you want to be, the guy who has always trained against resistance, or the guy who never really trained that?
> ...


I don’t disagree.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, I cannot understand how anyone involved in the Martial Arts, or any performance art for that matter, does not enjoy and appreciate that performance.


I don’t.  But that’s me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> However, I put it in the place of competitive dance or ballet since I don't believe you can develop actual fighting ability from its practice.


I rarely agree with you, but I'm with you on this one.  I haven't seen any proof to suggest otherwise.  Fighting is very complex activity and there's a lot of things that occur in sparring that isn't replicated by drilling.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> All kinds of gradual escalation of working techniques against partners.  It is more scripted than free sparring, of course.
> 
> And I am sure you will not be satisfied with that answer.


Actually I don't know how to take that answer because I don't know what gradual escalation of working techniques against partners is or what it would consist of.


----------



## Buka (Sep 7, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> There are international competition circuits where people compete in forms as a performance art. They train in forms for a different reason than you do, but it is slightly arrogant and unproductive to call popular international sports with well-developed competition circuits "wrong."  That's like speed-skaters calling figure skating "wrong."



I could watch that video of those Japanese Karate guys all day.

In fact, I think I will!


----------



## Mitlov (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> And of course I am completely aware of this.  You are correct, these things exist.  They are a more recent development as performance art.  This is not what forms were originally meant to be.



If I understand it correctly, Okinawan martial arts were originally meant to be killing marauding samurai with agricultural implements.

Thing is, I haven't seen marauding samurai in MONTHS. Maybe my gas-powered hedge-trimmer kata drove them off?

In all seriousness, it's great if you enjoy martial arts training as recreating one particular training approach from the late 19th century...but there's no reason that's the only right way to do martial arts in 2019.


----------



## skribs (Sep 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok.  In my art forms are not simply performance art.



It doesn't have to be for the performance itself, in order for you to train to get better at the form.  It might not be a training you understand, but it is a form of training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> it is a form of training.


In my SC (Chinese wrestling) system, form is for

- teaching,
- learning,
- recording.

Form is not for training. When I get older, form can be used for health purpose.


----------



## skribs (Sep 8, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In my SC (Chinese wrestling) system, form is for
> 
> - teaching,
> - learning,
> ...



Like I said, in *your* style it isn't.  To make such a blatant statement that it isn't at all, is incorrect.

For TKD, improving your form is part of the training.  You are not just learning a performance, or learning concepts.  You are learning to exactly copy the form as it is meant to be passed down.  I don't know if it was this thread or another (I think it was another), but @Dirty Dog was talking about how the forms have stayed the same since they were created in the late 60s or early 70s, and any deviation from them is incorrect (by Kukkiwon standards).  Any differences in stance, such as a shorter or wider stance than prescribed, or doing a punch at a different height than prescribed, is incorrect.  Copying your Master to exactness is part of your training.  Just like scribes writing books back in the day, before the printing press.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> And you can be improving in all areas, and show much bigger gains in 1 area.  Say someone starts out, and their forms are at a 2/10, and sparring at 4/10.  If, after a year, their forms are 3/10, and their sparring is 8/10, they've improved in all areas, but their biggest gains have been sparring.
> 
> The more diverse your curriculum, the more this hits.



Mabye that just happens in your school.

In mine if say your striking is good but your wrestling isn't. Then we make your wrestling better.

If you are not physically and mentally tough enough to engage in full contact competition. Then we give you those skills.

It is not just left up to chance.

And this is only if people are training results based. I mean if they are just training for self defense then it is not the same issue as if someone might actually have to rely on those skills.

Then people can afford to progress in whatever directions they want.

But it isn't left up to chance how people develop. Because for us that isn't good enough.

And I believed that there were fighters and non fighters that sprung up through some sort of natural magic as well. 

But because we have programs that drag people kicking and screaming through the process of becoming fighters. I have seen it has a lot less to do with random chance. 

Very much like the process the Aikido guy Rokus went through.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 8, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Mabye that just happens in your school.
> 
> In mine if say your striking is good but your wrestling isn't. Then we make your wrestling better.
> 
> ...


That is the best descriptions of a purely Martial program I have heard in a while. It is a hard mentality to promote and probably harder to keep going. But it is infectious and, if done correctly, will have a very good following. Too often it is promoted and seen as the formidable/manic/seedy side of training instead of just hard/gritty/effective training. People need to understand going in that it will not be easy. But it will be fun and effective with amazing gains.

A comment I often make jokingly (sort of) while working out is "this isn't ballet class"! My point being that there is going to be contact. You will be hit or pushed or pulled. 
I am certain high level ballet training is akin to gymnast training and is very effective in its own rights.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I didn’t say “that is how we have always done it”.


What, exactly, are you saying? I feel like the target is moving.


----------



## dvcochran (Sep 8, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I certainly enjoy it. However, I put  it in the place of competitive dance or ballet since I don't believe you can develop actual fighting ability from its practice.


I do see some of that.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> What, exactly, are you saying? I feel like the target is moving.



I said this: “Sure, sparring can fill that purpose.  Other drills can also fill that purpose. ”. That is the post I made, that you replied to.

What am I saying?  I am saying that sparring can be an effective training tool.  But other methods also can be effective training tools.  Sparring isn’t as important as many people make it out to be, as long as you are doing other things that build those application skills.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> It doesn't have to be for the performance itself, in order for you to train to get better at the form.  It might not be a training you understand, but it is a form of training.


How do you define “to get better at the form”?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> If I understand it correctly, Okinawan martial arts were originally meant to be killing marauding samurai with agricultural implements.
> 
> Thing is, I haven't seen marauding samurai in MONTHS. Maybe my gas-powered hedge-trimmer kata drove them off?
> 
> In all seriousness, it's great if you enjoy martial arts training as recreating one particular training approach from the late 19th century...but there's no reason that's the only right way to do martial arts in 2019.


My training dates back to 14th century Tibet (if the oral history has any accuracy, which it may, or may not), via southern China, not Okinawa.  So what the Okinawans were doing in the 19th century has little to do with it.  And the training has nothing to do with a desire to recreate something from the past.  It simply is a continuation of a training method that does give results.  The method works, and it is a method that seems to be a good match for my personality, so I follow it.  It is not historical re-creation.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually I don't know how to take that answer because I don't know what gradual escalation of working techniques against partners is or what it would consist of.


I am sure you do this too.

You take your techniques, either from you basics or taken from the context of your forms, and you drill them against a partner.  You experiment with how you might apply them, under various circumstances.  You gradually increase the level of intensity with these interactions.  You gradually increase the number of techniques used in the interactions, you gradually add to the randomness in the encounters.  But it is a more controlled encounter, used to focus on developing specific techniques or specific groups of techniques.


----------



## skribs (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> How do you define “to get better at the form”?



Better defined stances.  Less wobble or extra movement in your technique.  Proper chamber and execution of each technique.  Good posture and breathing.

Better understanding of each component in the form.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I am sure you do this too.
> 
> You take your techniques, either from you basics or taken from the context of your forms, and you drill them against a partner.  You experiment with how you might apply them, under various circumstances.  You gradually increase the level of intensity with these interactions.  You gradually increase the number of techniques used in the interactions, you gradually add to the randomness in the encounters.  But it is a more controlled encounter, used to focus on developing specific techniques or specific groups of techniques.


Sounds familiar in my head, but I'm not sure if it's the same thing. Here's what I'm thinking:

When I train students, we always spar at a level where mistakes aren't costly.  I usually encourage them to use the big punch because it's our basic punch.  I don't tell him how to use or apply it during sparring, instead I let them figure it out (sounds similar to the "Experiment with how you might apply them.").  I usually give them openings but it's up to them to step forward to try the technique.

I've only increased the intensity level once within a 5 years period and that was with the other instructor and after 2 sessions I had to bring the intensity back down because he was making critical and foolish mistakes, like leaning his face into my power hand multiple times. 

As for the number of techniques used, I allowed them to use the one that want to try.  The can use other techniques if it helps them to set up the one they are actually trying to learn.  If they didn't use one then I pick one for them.  I always made them try to use the big punch because it's the basic punch for Jow Ga.  The sparring in general is random it's a lesson in trying to see opportunities and risk of applying a technique against a partner who trying to defend and attack.

Is this similar to what you are doing?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> Better defined stances.  Less wobble or extra movement in your technique.  Proper chamber and execution of each technique.  Good posture and breathing.
> 
> Better understanding of each component in the form.


Is it for an audience, or is it to develop your technique and your skills?


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sounds familiar in my head, but I'm not sure if it's the same thing. Here's what I'm thinking:
> 
> When I train students, we always spar at a level where mistakes aren't costly.  I usually encourage them to use the big punch because it's our basic punch.  I don't tell him how to use or apply it during sparring, instead I let them figure it out (sounds similar to the "Experiment with how you might apply them.").  I usually give them openings but it's up to them to step forward to try the technique.
> 
> ...


This would be similar.  It would start with fewer components and less freedom, but would grow into something similar to what you describe.  The main point is that it is controlled in order to work on specific skills, and not just a face-off and go at it with total freeform.

And obviously you work things like the heavybag in order to develop your power.


----------



## skribs (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Is it for an audience, or is it to develop your technique and your skills?



To develop technique and skills.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> This would be similar.  It would start with fewer components and less freedom, but would grow into something similar to what you describe.  The main point is that it is controlled in order to work on specific skills, and not just a face-off and go at it with total freeform.
> 
> And obviously you work things like the heavybag in order to develop your power.


Ok I think I understand what you are describing now.  I've never trained like that before.  The school did drills but they weren't like that.  They were always repetition drills which to me were a double edge sword.  It helped trained the movement but it also programmed the movement.  If my partner changed it up with a different strike then I would follow the programmed movement and get hit.  After the first school closed down I changed how we did drills to help minimize the programming while having the benefits of repetition.

A drill like what you described sounds like it would have been a good fit.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ok I think I understand what you are describing now.  I've never trained like that before.  The school did drills but they weren't like that.  They were always repetition drills which to me were a double edge sword.  It helped trained the movement but it also programmed the movement.  If my partner changed it up with a different strike then I would follow the programmed movement and get hit.  After the first school closed down I changed how we did drills to help minimize the programming while having the benefits of repetition.
> 
> A drill like what you described sounds like it would have been a good fit.


Understandable, and you do point out some potential weaknesses.  Every drill or method has weaknesses.  But yeah, you do work towards more freedom, and there is a lot of middle ground in that progression.  At the beginning, and as a way to return to the fundamentals, doing simple one-steps are a good place to start.  But I agree, it does need to go beyond that.


----------



## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> To develop technique and skills.


Sounds good to me.

Admittedly, I can sometimes get a bit hung up on the terminology.  When someone says “get good at forms”, that tells me they see the forms as an end product and as more of a performance piece, and may not see it as a functional and useful drill for skills.  I do believe there are schools that treat them as such.

But it may be just me, inaccurately interpreting what they mean.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> Admittedly, I can sometimes get a bit hung up on the terminology.  When someone says “get good at forms”, that tells me they see the forms as an end product and as more of a performance piece, and may not see it as a functional and useful drill for skills.  I do believe there are schools that treat them as such.
> 
> But it may be just me, inaccurately interpreting what they mean.


When I say getting good at forms, or practicing forms, the idea is to improve your form, and by improving your form, you are therefore improving your technique as well.


----------



## skribs (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> Admittedly, I can sometimes get a bit hung up on the terminology.  When someone says “get good at forms”, that tells me they see the forms as an end product and as more of a performance piece, and may not see it as a functional and useful drill for skills.  I do believe there are schools that treat them as such.
> 
> But it may be just me, inaccurately interpreting what they mean.



In this case, the form is the end product.  Perfecting the skills of the form, is to perfect that end product.

My Master takes this approach in a lot of things.  His philosophy is that when people are required to memorize something, they will practice it more.  This is why we have so many rote memorized drills and combinations on our tests.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds good to me.
> 
> Admittedly, I can sometimes get a bit hung up on the terminology.  When someone says “get good at forms”, that tells me they see the forms as an end product and as more of a performance piece, and may not see it as a functional and useful drill for skills.  I do believe there are schools that treat them as such.
> 
> But it may be just me, inaccurately interpreting what they mean.


  I'm 'with you on this one.  When forms are performed without focus of function then the form loses it's meaning and students lose the understanding of it.  Sort of like what has happened with Tai Chi.  Many people can do the form but not tell you the application and because of the lack of that knowledge stances and body positioning are often incorrect.

This is what Tai Chi is for some (video on page).  It totally misses the mark with the first sentence in the video.
Video: Tai chi

A different video that misses the point too on so many levels.  First time I've heard Tai Chi as being like ice cream and cake.





I didn't watch the whole video.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm 'with you on this one.  When forms are performed without focus of function then the form loses it's meaning and students lose the understanding of it.  Sort of like what has happened with Tai Chi.  Many people can do the form but not tell you the application and because of the lack of that knowledge stances and body positioning are often incorrect.
> 
> This is what Tai Chi is for some (video on page).  It totally misses the mark with the first sentence in the video.
> Video: Tai chi
> ...


Yeah, the way we do our forms, they are a very functional training tool.  I think that often people focus on what the form looks like, and that is their interpretation of doing it right.  But if they don’t focus on the deeper physicality of why it looks like it does and how do you correctly get to that position or posture or technique, then there is a real chance that it looks good superficially, but misses a lot underneath.  It’s a corvette on the outside, but somebody put a lawnmower engine under the hood.

I think many people see forms as a catalog of techniques to remember.  For me, it’s deeper than that.  I think what is often overlooked is the how, in how is the technique in the form done properly.  A punch is more than just, throw your fist out in this or that direction.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

skribs said:


> In this case, the form is the end product.  Perfecting the skills of the form, is to perfect that end product.
> 
> My Master takes this approach in a lot of things.  His philosophy is that when people are required to memorize something, they will practice it more.  This is why we have so many rote memorized drills and combinations on our tests.


I guess with this answer, it makes me wonder if the focus on memorization might get i the way of what is supposed to be going on deeper.  Maybe not.  But maybe.  And something to think about.


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## dvcochran (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess with this answer, it makes me wonder if the focus on memorization might get i the way of what is supposed to be going on deeper.  Maybe not.  But maybe.  And something to think about.


Thinking that learning a from by memorizing the moves is not a good idea, at least at higher levels/ranks. It is how we all learn in the beginning. But as you learn and see more forms should be more about the "why" instead of the "how".


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## Flying Crane (Sep 8, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Thinking that learning a from by memorizing the moves is not a good idea, at least at higher levels/ranks. It is how we all learn in the beginning. But as you learn and see more forms should be more about the "why" instead of the "how".


I agree.  In the beginning, we all need to practice our memorization skills.  But it can’t stop there.  I think the how and the why are equally important.  The how needs constant reinforcement and the why Is the intellectual side that gives us insight on what circumstances to best use the skills.


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## skribs (Sep 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess with this answer, it makes me wonder if the focus on memorization might get i the way of what is supposed to be going on deeper.  Maybe not.  But maybe.  And something to think about.



For some people yes.  However, for a lot of our students (especially the kids) I think it helps, because it gets people practicing.  For those that want to go deeper, we can.  In most cases it doesn't hold anyone back.

Personally, I'd have a different approach.  But I've seen that my Master's approach works.  I've been teaching there for 5 years, and I've seen students grow in that time.  I've also been able to see snapshots in time, where I'll see the yellow belts, the green belts, the red belts, the black belts, and the 3rd degree black belts, and for the most part there is a clear upward climb.  You have some people that are simply more naturally gifted, and sometimes you may end up with one belt group that's kind of riding a wave of more gifted students, but overall I've seen the progress people make.

I said I'd have a different approach.  I'd also have a different school and reason for having a school.  I would want to focus more on older students, and more on the techniques themselves.  When I first started teaching, I had some problems with the way I was supposed to teach and the way we did things.  At that point in time, I was "right" and my Master was "wrong" (from my point of view).  But since it was his school, I did things his way.  *What I've learned is that my Master is right, and I am also right.*  Okay, in some things I'm wrong.  But there are other things where I have a different style than he does, and I'd do things different, and each of our ways would work better for different people.


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