# Pressure Points?



## PG_ShaolinKempoKarate23 (Nov 6, 2005)

How effective do you think that pressure points are in a street fighting situation?

Do you see them as something to always use or depend on, or they more of a last resort?


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2005)

Everything has its time and place.  PP's can be very effective.  However, learning how to apply them is not something that is going to happen overnight.   Of course its going to be a bit more difficult to strike them when there is alot of movement, but again, it can be done.  They're also going to work well against grabbing attacks, where there is slightly less movement.

Mike


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 6, 2005)

there are a few pressure points that you could work into your training that are effective, but they arent always fight stoppers.
understanding their use takes a long time and a lot of hard work but they can become a very useful tool.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 6, 2005)

I know some kempo/kenpo people may teach PP attacks but I have never studied with one. Most seem to teach basic strike, kick, block.  If you are lucky enough to have a instructor that has studied PP attacks somewhere I am sure that he/she would be able to incorporate into the system what he knows.
Trouble is sometimes a little knowledge can be a bad thing also.  IE: Trying to to a pp attack when a basic strike or block could accomplish more


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## arnisador (Nov 6, 2005)

Don't count on them--but if a strike is going to land, it might as well land where it'll hurt. But I would not want to use a PP-only strike. Too many people are not affected, you can miss, etc.


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## Casey_Sutherland (Nov 6, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> there are a few pressure points that you could work into your training that are effective, but they arent always fight stoppers.
> understanding their use takes a long time and a lot of hard work but they can become a very useful tool.


 
I agree. Doc would definatly be the one to answer this thread but IMO I beleive that specifically using PP for knocout purposes is unlikely and ties up your thought pattern while you could be more adequatly defending. That being said I beleive certain points for control and manipulation are essential.


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## kenpoworks (Nov 6, 2005)

Hi Casey,
You are right about Doc, but for people who are based in Europe it might be a good idea to catch Mr. John Wards seminar at the IKC's in Holland in April 2006, John has a bead on Pressure Point Training that is great for all Kenpo practitioners.
Richie


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 6, 2005)

the quickest way for you to gain some insight into pressure points (and i hate using that term) is by studying some kind of body therapy......while this may seem like a whole lot of work just to find out where a few sensitive spots on the body are, it will serve to increase your knowledge of martial arts by leaps and bounds.
lets look at joint locks for instance......someone who has put in a lot of time studying the application of joint locks does so through a slow process of trial, error and feel. with a basic understanding of anatomy and kinesiology......the speed at which the locks are learned is much faster.


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## DavidCC (Nov 7, 2005)

They can be very effective or ineffecgtive, mostly depending on the person applying the technique.  Oh wait, that's true of everything :/

my Shaolin Kempo instructor has been very actively working to incorporate these techniques into what we do.  You can learn more at www.kyusho.com


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## BallistikMike (Nov 7, 2005)

Im the furthest guy that knows about "Pressure Points" in the sense of the Chinese Martial Arts and Meridians and things of that nature.

I like to have knowledge of "Pain Centers" things on your body that when driven into with a hard object or squeezed and twisted cause pain...lots of pain.

For example your eye ball, a nice pain center. Another would be your cheek. The soft tissue can be pinched and squeezed and then twisted to cause extreme pain. Kind of like a poor mans "Pressure Point" type of thing.

The problem with pain is that not everyone feels it the same and it is hard to rely on "Pain" as ... a ... motivator.


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## Doc (Nov 7, 2005)

PG_ShaolinKempoKarate23 said:
			
		

> How effective do you think that pressure points are in a street fighting situation?


Yep!


> Do you see them as something to always use or depend on, or they more of a last resort?


Neither. The mistake is "studying" pressure points. I have acupuncturists students who cannot apply them effectively in a self defense environment.


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## DavidCC (Nov 8, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Im the furthest guy that knows about "Pressure Points" in the sense of the Chinese Martial Arts and Meridians and things of that nature.
> 
> I like to have knowledge of "Pain Centers" things on your body that when driven into with a hard object or squeezed and twisted cause pain...lots of pain.
> 
> ...


 

Thsi is why we teach that pain compliance is not reliable.  Effective use of "pressure points" does not rely on pain but on reflexive and autonomic reactions.  The pain is just the icing on the cake LOL


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## Eric Daniel (Nov 8, 2005)

PG_ShaolinKempoKarate23 said:
			
		

> How effective do you think that pressure points are in a street fighting situation?
> 
> Do you see them as something to always use or depend on, or they more of a last resort?


I am not sure when you should use pressure points but on the street both you and the person attacking you will have an adrenaline rush, so my question is do pressure points work on a person who has an adrenaline rush or is high or drunk? I think pressure points can but should not be used on the street. I don't think that you will have accuracy on the street because of adrenaline. With pressure points you have to be persise.


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## Eric Daniel (Nov 8, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> the quickest way for you to gain some insight into pressure points (and i hate using that term) is by studying some kind of body therapy......while this may seem like a whole lot of work just to find out where a few sensitive spots on the body are, it will serve to increase your knowledge of martial arts by leaps and bounds.
> lets look at joint locks for instance......someone who has put in a lot of time studying the application of joint locks does so through a slow process of trial, error and feel. with a basic understanding of anatomy and kinesiology......the speed at which the locks are learned is much faster.


I will agree with you hear. I think that if you study the human body and know about it you can minipulate it and know what your doing. I know an instructor in Aiki- ju- Jutsu named Dan Angier who I have heard studied Gray's Anatomy and he knows all about the body and he incorporates that into his Martial Arts.


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## Eric Daniel (Nov 8, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Don't count on them--but if a strike is going to land, it might as well land where it'll hurt. But I would not want to use a PP-only strike. Too many people are not affected, you can miss, etc.


I think it would hurt no matter where you strike a person.


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## DavidCC (Nov 9, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> I am not sure when you should use pressure points but on the street both you and the person attacking you will have an adrenaline rush, so my question is do pressure points work on a person who has an adrenaline rush or is high or drunk? I think pressure points can but should not be used on the street. I don't think that you will have accuracy on the street because of adrenaline. With pressure points you have to be persise.


 
If I can hit your arm in such a way that the muscles of your hand spasm then being drunk is not going to prevent it from doing so, even if it doesn't cross your pain threshold.  For techniques that rely on the inflicted pain to make them do someting, then you are correct drugs or even a state of mind can nullify that.  But there are some types of reaction that are not nullified by being oblivious to pain.


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## Doc (Nov 9, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> If I can hit your arm in such a way that the muscles of your hand spasm then being drunk is not going to prevent it from doing so, even if it doesn't cross your pain threshold.  For techniques that rely on the inflicted pain to make them do someting, then you are correct drugs or even a state of mind can nullify that.  But there are some types of reaction that are not nullified by being oblivious to pain.


Well said sir. If a person understands martial postures, and executes techniques built around an anatomical model that considers these things, than "pressure points," "nerve cavities" access is a byproduct of the execution that will take care of itself.


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## MJS (Nov 9, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> If I can hit your arm in such a way that the muscles of your hand spasm then being drunk is not going to prevent it from doing so, even if it doesn't cross your pain threshold. For techniques that rely on the inflicted pain to make them do someting, then you are correct drugs or even a state of mind can nullify that. But there are some types of reaction that are not nullified by being oblivious to pain.


 
I agree!!  Even if they don't acheive the desired goal, getting some sort of reaction can be enough to buy you time to do something else.

Mike


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## DavidCC (Nov 10, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I agree!! Even if they don't acheive the desired goal, getting some sort of reaction can be enough to buy you time to do something else.
> 
> Mike


 
we keep our exepctations low, the desired goal IS just a momentary reaction (that we can exploit).

One of our favorite sayings is: "That won't leave a mark, but it will make an impression"


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## Eric Daniel (Nov 15, 2005)

I think  that pressure points can be used and studied and practiced but you have to be an expert at pressure point (I think) to be able to use them on the street because when you get into a "real" fight situation there will be adrenaline that needs to come into your thought too. If the attacker has an addrenaline rush or is high on some sort of drug or is drunk, I don't think pressure points will be effective in those situations. Just because they may or may not work doesn't mean you have to not use them. "Use what you got, when you got it." You should incorporate other things into pressure point training and not always rely on them.


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## Doc (Nov 15, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> I think  that pressure points can be used and studied and practiced but you have to be an expert at pressure point (I think) to be able to use them on the street because when you get into a "real" fight situation there will be adrenaline that needs to come into your thought too. If the attacker has an addrenaline rush or is high on some sort of drug or is drunk, I don't think pressure points will be effective in those situations. Just because they may or may not work doesn't mean you have to not use them. "Use what you got, when you got it." You should incorporate other things into pressure point training and not always rely on them.


Pressure points work fine sir, and have nothing to do with adrenal glands or drugs. If you "rely" on pressure points only, than you don't really understand how they function. Therefore there is no such thing as "relying on presure points."


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 15, 2005)

Great discussion. That is all :lurk:


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## Jagdish (Nov 16, 2005)

Can adding muscle on your "frame" difficult applying P.Points on you?

Yours,

Jagdish


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## MJS (Nov 16, 2005)

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Can adding muscle on your "frame" difficult applying P.Points on you?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


 
I'm no pressure point expert, but I would think that the set up would be important here.  Just like applying a joint lock.  Some people are going to have an easy time with the application and others will need to work the set-up a bit better.

Mike


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2005)

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Can adding muscle on your "frame" difficult applying P.Points on you?
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Jagdish


No, actually the muscle bound are easier and more susceptable.


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## arnisador (Nov 16, 2005)

Jagdish said:
			
		

> Can adding muscle on your "frame" difficult applying P.Points on you?


 
George Dillman said at a seminar that that may shift what's available but still leaves you with about as many options. He also said a beer belly has the potential to protect certain pressure points around the abdomen, and that that's why so many masters have them.


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> George Dillman said at a seminar that that may shift what's available but still leaves you with about as many options. He also said a beer belly has the potential to protect certain pressure points around the abdomen, and that that's why so many masters have them.


Well Sir, with all due respect to George, my experience is that extremes of muscle development actually define cavity locations more clearly as opposed to protecting them. Additionally from the SL-4 perspective, we recognize that nerve cavities are fluid as human anatomy and are not static in application, and are always subject to move. Understanding human anatomy in this fashion is a part of the methodology SL-4 utilizes anway, therefore muscle developement is a non-issue, and highlighhts the importance of "martial posture," offensively and defensively in actual application over "pressure point theory."

As for the "beer belly" protection, I don't drink and I think it is important it be unerstood the "belly protection" can be achieved in other ways as Mr. Parker taught me - well. It's a shame he passed before the proliferation of the All-you-can-eat Chinese buffet.


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## parkerkarate (Nov 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> George Dillman said at a seminar that that may shift what's available but still leaves you with about as many options. He also said a beer belly has the potential to protect certain pressure points around the abdomen, and that that's why so many masters have them.


 

LOL, that is hilarious


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## arnisador (Nov 16, 2005)

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> LOL, that is hilarious


 
I take no position on it.


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## arnisador (Nov 16, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well Sir, with all due respect to George, my experience is that extremes of muscle development actually define cavity locations more clearly as opposed to protecting them.


 
I can imagine how this could be so. Hmmm, I guess I don't really know how muscle development "shifts" one's nerves, but it doesn't seem to me that they would be any more buried under the muscle than before.

Mr. Dillman also spoke about blood points (or attacks) and, if memory serves, muscle points, both of which were to be distinguished from nerve points. He told a couple of stories about blood and muscle points but didn't elaborate or demonstrate.



> As for the "beer belly" protection, I don't drink and I think it is important it be unerstood the "belly protection" can be achieved in other ways as Mr. Parker taught me - well. It's a shame he passed before the proliferation of the All-you-can-eat Chinese buffet.


 
Ah yes! In the arnis organization to which I belong we have focused on the pizza-and-wings approach. Different paths, same goal!


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I can imagine how this could be so. Hmmm, I guess I don't really know how muscle development "shifts" one's nerves, but it doesn't seem to me that they would be any more buried under the muscle than before.


You're correct sir. Muscle development actually defines point locations more clearly and pushes nerve cavities closer to the epidermis.


> Mr. Dillman also spoke about blood points (or attacks) and, if memory serves, muscle points, both of which were to be distinguished from nerve points.


Yes sir, but in the Chinese perspective there is not much difference in application and there was no distinction in my understanding. But then we don't focus on "pressure points, nerve cavities" perse - they are a byproduct of the methodology that always seem to present themselve in our applications.


> Ah yes! In the arnis organization to which I belong we have focused on the pizza-and-wings approach. Different paths, same goal!


You haven't lived until you get a pizza from "Rosarios." And you'll need help to get it to the car. - Uhhhh, not that I go there often or anything.


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## Brother John (Nov 16, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I can imagine how this could be so. Hmmm, I guess I don't really know how muscle development "shifts" one's nerves, but it doesn't seem to me that they would be any more buried under the muscle than before.


When muscles hypertrophy they tend to fill in the most in the "belly" of the muscle, it's center. When that happens there's some area of separation, where you can visually distinguish say between the biceps and triceps of the upper arm. ((visualize two uninflated beach balls laying one atop the other, then you fill them both up equally, they will still be touching in the center...but the surface area of contact between them will decrease dramatically....see...)) Well... many, not all, pressure points (kyusho, as Mr. Dillman et al, is want to call them) lie along side bones or near the center of a limb. So when the developed muscles separate...they actually provide better/easier/clearer access to SOME nerves.... (not all).... and I think this may be what Mr. Chapel is refering too.
...accurate??

Your Brother
John


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> When muscles hypertrophy they tend to fill in the most in the "belly" of the muscle, it's center. When that happens there's some area of separation, where you can visually distinguish say between the biceps and triceps of the upper arm. ((visualize two uninflated beach balls laying one atop the other, then you fill them both up equally, they will still be touching in the center...but the surface area of contact between them will decrease dramatically....see...)) Well... many, not all, pressure points (kyusho, as Mr. Dillman et al, is want to call them) lie along side bones or near the center of a limb. So when the developed muscles separate...they actually provide better/easier/clearer access to SOME nerves.... (not all).... and I think this may be what Mr. Chapel is refering too.
> ...accurate??
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Yeah, but you did a better job of describing it. May I steal your analogy?


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## Brother John (Nov 16, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you did a better job of describing it. May I steal your analogy?


Royalties.....big brother............royalties........


Your Brother
John


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## Doc (Nov 16, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Royalties.....big brother............royalties........
> 
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Somehow, I knew it was going to cost me. Do you happen to know either of my daughters? Your refrain sounds painfully familiar.


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## howlingmadsifu (Nov 17, 2005)

Pressure points can be exremely effective in a fight if the proper application is executed on the proper point. I teach my students to never use a small target specific point that would rely on touch pressure in a active aggression situation as they rely on pain sensitivity. However, there are a number of pressure points that are easily found and struck or kicked that will disrupt a persons motor system such as the superficial peronial, femoral nerve, common peroneal, tibial and sciatic nerves in the legs, and all points connected to the brachial plexus origin in the upper torso and neck. I have taught these points for a decade and a half and have personally used them with great success. I agree with the body therapy suggestion to find points on yourself and would further suggest diving into a copy of grey's anatomy or any publication from Bruce Siddle at PPCT to actually see a map of these points. Hope this helped and good luck.


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