# Transferring from ATA to WTF



## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

Hello all!

I'm new to the forums after scouring the threads over the past week. I'm delighted to join the community and I hope to be apart of the many interesting conversations that take place here.

In summary, I have a young daughter and she recently began her journey in Taekwondo (ATA). After 7 years of training, I myself earned a black belt in Taekwondo (ATA) as a teenager before opting out of my training to play high school sports. My daughter has a natural affinity for TKD and has aspirations to reach black belt someday. Her eagerness has motivated me to return to martial arts training as well but the ATA has changed drastically from what I can remember. Even though I'm satisfied with her current instructors, I've recently came across a slew of negative reviews about the ATA as an organization in the last 20+ years since I ended my training. Among other things, what startles me the most is the lack of recognition of ATA ranks outside of the organization itself. This is what bothers me most of all when it comes to my child's long term success in martial arts.

My concerns: Should I remove my daughter from the ATA in favor of a more global friendly organization like the WTF/ITF? Will my old rank hold any weight in another organization (WTF) or martial art discipline or will I have to start over at white belt regardless of my choice? I am currently considering training in Shotokan Karate if my rank does not hold up in TKD outside of ATA.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays!


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## IcemanSK (Dec 25, 2013)

First, welcome to MT. 

You said that you've read negative things about the ATA in recent years since you've trained. Are they about the school where your daughter is now, or the organization in general? If it's the org. in general, there are plenty of solid ATA folks out there (MT's own Balrog, for example, is ATA &, by all accounts a quality MAist.) I'd encourage you to focus on what your daughter's instructor is like & the quality of instruction that he brings. If you're concerned with that, then you may want to look elsewhere. If you like wat you see at that school, I'd see no reason to change.

As far as recognition of your BB goes, it differs from school to school. In some schools, they would recognize you as a BB, but you would need to learn forms and the way things are done at that school before they'd consider you ready to teach &/or test at that school. Some schools would require you to be a white belt again. Talking it over with the instructor will give you a better idea what they require.

My best to you and your daughter in your MA journeys.


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

Thanks for the quick reply!

To answer your question, I've read negative things about the organization in general and not about my daughter's individual school. I've monitored her instructors and I'm satisfied with their level of skill and dedication. However, at her recent exam for example, I was surprised to see group testing rather than the individual testing I was accustomed to. There was not a distinction between the kids who lazily executed their form compared to the kids who's dedication was quite apparent. The whole procedure felt like an informality rather than a test of skill as if just showing up guaranteed a promotion. The modern ATA appears very commercialized. TKD taught me discipline and respect at an early age so I'd like to see it taken more seriously from its practitioners. My peers, not just my master, pushed me to excel. My daughter is performing well, but I worry about her development if her classmates are not taking it seriously. That is a huge concern when I think about her training from an organizational stand point. Thats just one example from a handful of long term issues that may rise.

As far as my BB, thats great to know. I have no issue re-learning the forms or even starting at another rank since I've been out of practice for a long time. I've read that WTF forms are entirely different than ATA or even ITF for that matter.  I'm just gathering the information I need since the landscape has changed so much in my city when it comes to MA.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 25, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> ................ There was not a distinction between the kids who lazily executed their form compared to the kids who's dedication was quite apparent. The whole procedure felt like an informality rather than a test of skill as if just showing up guaranteed a promotion.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



My thoughts: 

1. Seems like the above would sound warning bells about the school irrespective of any organization.

2. Search for a good school, then consider the org.  HU Lee, founder of the ATA was a Chung Do Kwan guy, then he was with the ITF and used the Chang Hon / ITF forms albeit with a CDK flavor and some old line ATA people did those forms.  So, you may or may not do those forms already. 

3. Ignore # 2 as far as what you now choose. Due to the long abscence advise any new school you choose of your history. If it is a good school and your knowledge and skills warrant you should be able to progress faster than the average white belt, but the most important is that you have the white belt perspective.


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## kitkatninja (Dec 25, 2013)

I'd would like to start by saying that I have no experience with the ATA organisation and the following are my general views only


Eastpointvet said:


> ...My concerns: Should I remove my daughter from the ATA in favor of a more global friendly organization like the WTF/ITF? Will my old rank hold any weight in another organization (WTF) or martial art discipline or will I have to start over at white belt regardless of my choice? I am currently considering training in Shotokan Karate if my rank does not hold up in TKD outside of ATA....



Depends on a variety of things...  Are you happy with your childs performance and the school's delivery of the martial arts?  Will you be be going abroad?  Do you need a more globally recognised association/organisation?  Saying that, the ATA do have branches outside the US, eg the Songahm Taekwondo Federation, World Traditional Taekwondo Union, ATA-Xtreme (Xtreme Martial Arts) and the Korean Taekwondo Council.
As for whether or not your rank holds weight in other organisations, it would depend on the other organisation.  Some may accept your rank, some may conditional accept your rank, others may not.  Even between the WTF and the ITF, from what I've read, rank recognition isn't automatic.  

The same thing goes for other arts and styles, for example in Shotokan karate, I was awarded my 1st Dan by one international organisation, however due to work commitments and moving away, I looked at transferring to another international organisation.  However they would only conditionally accept my rank and I would have to retest for my 1st Dan within a year - then they would either keep the same grade for me, award a lower grade or promote me to a higher grade.  Even though both associations were/are affiate members of Karate England and the WKF.



IcemanSK said:


> ...As far as recognition of your BB goes, it differs from school to school. In some schools, they would recognize you as a BB, but you would need to learn forms and the way things are done at that school before they'd consider you ready to teach &/or test at that school. Some schools would require you to be a white belt again. Talking it over with the instructor will give you a better idea what they require...



Agreed


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> As far as my BB, thats great to know. I have no issue re-learning the forms or even starting at another rank since I've been out of practice for a long time. I've read that WTF forms are entirely different than ATA or even ITF for that matter.  I'm just gathering the information I need since the landscape has changed so much in my city when it comes to MA.



Others have addressed your other concerns, so I'm only going to comment on this.

If you've been out of it for 20 years, you aren't really a black belt any more, are you? Sure, you may find a school that will let you wrap a black piece of fabric around your waist and look like one. Until you move. 

Would you rather have people see you in a black belt and wonder why, or see you in a white belt and wonder why?

Strap on a white belt and go to work. You'll quite likely progress faster than others.


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## dancingalone (Dec 25, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> My concerns: Should I remove my daughter from the ATA in favor of a more global friendly organization like the WTF/ITF? Will my old rank hold any weight in another organization (WTF) or martial art discipline or will I have to start over at white belt regardless of my choice? I am currently considering training in Shotokan Karate if my rank does not hold up in TKD outside of ATA.



Merry Christmas!

The organization really only matters if you think your daughter will pursue TKD beyond the hobbyist & lifestyle level.  For example if she intends to pursue the Olympics, she will need to earn a Kukkiwon black belt.  Of course, both of the other groups you've mentioned (ITF & ATA) both have their own international level competition opportunities, but the WTF avenue is the largest if this is important to you.  I've been on both sides of the fence, earning my first couple of dans in TKD in Jhoon Rhee American TKD (somewhat related to ATA as Jhoon Rhee and HU Lee were both Chung Do Kwan guys), but then switching over to the KKW world as an instructor/dojang owner.  As someone who is not involved in competition training, I don't find the brand of my certification to be incredibly pertinent, but on the other hand I have met and trained with some impressive taekwondoin as a result of my affiliation.  That to me is most important.  Pick the association that will give you the best training opportunities locally for your daughter.  She can always 'transfer' later into another group if her circumstances and goals change. 

Ranks don't always transfer automatically.  That's really up to the school owner that accepts you in as a new student.  My own policy is to let new students keep their old rank if they wish.  They simply don't advance further however until they are up to speed on my own in-house requirements.  Most dojang operators are similar in this respect.  We all love new students and respect any prior learning they have undertaken, but keep in mind martial arts ranks aren't as universal as say a GED certificate.  Any move and transfer will involve some realignment of technique and study focus.  It's just the nature of the beast.

As for Shotokan...By all means give it a shot if the TKD doesn't work out for you.  I always say the quality of the teacher is more important than the art itself.


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## Gorilla (Dec 25, 2013)

If you are planning on competing in a truly global Tkd organization WTF/KKW is a good choice! Depending on the school your rank might hold up! What area are you in I might be able to recommend a school!


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

Thank you everyone for the comprehensive replies!



Earl Weiss said:


> My thoughts:
> 
> 1. Seems like the above would sound warning bells about the school irrespective of any organization.
> 
> ...



I agree with points #1 and #2. As for point #3, this is the scenario I'm mentally preparing for.



kitkatninja said:


> Depends on a variety of things... Are you happy with your childs performance and the school's delivery of the martial arts? Will you be be going abroad?




I'm happy with her performance but I'm fearful that she may not receive the most optimal training experience if her school is so cavalier with it's testing requirements. My family has a long term plan to live abroad.  



Dirty Dog said:


> If you've been out of it for 20 years, you aren't really a black belt any more, are you? Sure, you may find a school that will let you wrap a black piece of fabric around your waist and look like one. Until you move.
> 
> Would you rather have people see you in a black belt and wonder why, or see you in a white belt and wonder why?
> 
> Strap on a white belt and go to work. You'll quite likely progress faster than others.




All valid points! No, I do not mentally consider myself a black belt and my ego will not prevent me from strapping on a white belt again if that is required. However, I just wanted to gather a few opinions from more experienced practitioners. I like to have an idea of what to expect. 



dancingalone said:


> The organization really only matters if you think your daughter will pursue TKD beyond the hobbyist & lifestyle level.



Merry Christmas! I totally agree. That concern is what brought me here. My daughter recently tested into orange belt. Her progress, dedication and level of interest has motivated us to place her into an organization that will maximize her training goals no matter how far she chooses to take it. As a teenager, I ended my training due to the exclusive nature of the ATA and my lack of admiration for most of the adult black belts aside from my teacher. I would prefer she sees TKD on a global level rather than just on an American level. I've personally decided that I will join a WTF oriented organization or pursue training in Shotokan. As for her, we are still undecided but I would prefer she jumps over to the WTF. I've been studying their Poomsae and sparring events as of late and I'm highly impressed.


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> If you are planning on competing in a truly global Tkd organization WTF/KKW is a good choice! Depending on the school your rank might hold up! What area are you in I might be able to recommend a school!



I would prefer for my kid to have the option to compete globally if we reach that point. I do hope that my rank holds up but I'm excited about the learning process regardless! I am in Atlanta, GA. More specifically the Roswell/Alpharetta/Norcross area of the city.


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## dancingalone (Dec 25, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> My daughter recently tested into orange belt. Her progress, dedication and level of interest has motivated us to place her into an organization that will maximize her training goals no matter how far she chooses to take it. As a teenager, I ended my training due to the exclusive nature of the ATA and my lack of admiration for most of the adult black belts aside from my teacher. I would prefer she sees TKD on a global level rather than just on an American level. I've personally decided that I will join a WTF oriented organization or pursue training in Shotokan. As for her, we are still undecided but I would prefer she jumps over to the WTF. I've been studying their Poomsae and sparring events as of late and I'm highly impressed.



Ah.  Well, if you plan to live abroad eventually, then I would indeed endorse studying the KKW style above all others in taekwondo.  Keep in mind though that the KKW has no real oversight over colored belt students, so pick a reputable/notable master in your area, since you'll be joining his/her school rather than an abstract organization in principle.  I can't help with a recommendation in Atlanta, but I am sure someone else will chime in or will contact you  via PM.  You probably want to pick a school that has had success in training tournament champions.

Good luck.


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## msmitht (Dec 25, 2013)

O





Eastpointvet said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I'm new to the forums after scouring the threads over the past week. I'm delighted to join the community and I hope to be apart of the many interesting conversations that take place here.
> 
> ...


There are good and bad schools in all styles. In the tkd community the ATA has a bad rep. While looking for a new school watch out for the bad ones too. Watch a few advanced classes and see what the end product looks like. Most other schools will not honor your rank but only a few will make you start over completely.


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## Gorilla (Dec 25, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> I would prefer for my kid to have the option to compete globally if we reach that point. I do hope that my rank holds up but I'm excited about the learning process regardless! I am in Atlanta, GA. More specifically the Roswell/Alpharetta/Norcross area of the city.



You live in an area in which I have no contacts...sorry about that....but you just gave me an idea...Atlanta is a great city that just might be under served!!!!


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> You live in an area in which I have no contacts...sorry about that....but you just gave me an idea...Atlanta is a great city that just might be under served!!!!



True! So far my search has only revealed about 3-5 WTF/Olympic sparring oriented schools in Atlanta. Only one of those is in my suburb. ATA is very dominant here.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 25, 2013)

FWIW I view MA training / looking for schools like looking for an ice cream store. Different people like diiferent flavors. If a store has the best Chocolae in the world and you don't like Chocolate, than it's not for you. 

For me, and any referral I would make, sparring without punching to the face is like not liking that chocolate.


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## granfire (Dec 25, 2013)

I missed the part where you said how old your kid is.

Personally, in the beginning a good instructor in an ATA style school might help (some) girls more than a hard hitting place. I trained in an ATA offshoot organization. You can always cross train with a harder hitting club IMHO.

Oh, and don't worry about the sloppy kids. They stay around for a couple of years, maybe get the BB, then vanish. In the meantime, their attendance pays the bills and keeps the door open. 

A few years ago I would have pointed you in the direction of a friend who used to own a school outside of Atlanta, be he since left TKD...

(as to your BB...I had taken a hiatus for some personal reasons, when I came back I wanted to hide my belt in my bag, stand in the back of the field. The instructor made me stand up front, put that black belt on...and I was sooo out of shape! Take the chance to start back up being in the back of the class! It's worth it)


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

granfire said:


> I missed the part where you said how old your kid is.
> 
> Personally, in the beginning a good instructor in an ATA style school might help (some) girls more than a hard hitting place. I trained in an ATA offshoot organization. You can always cross train with a harder hitting club IMHO.
> 
> ...



She'll be 8 years old next month. She's at the same age as I was when I started TKD. Good point about the other kids.

Thats a very interesting take on the BB issue from your experience. Ill keep that in mind. I've stayed in shape over the years thankfully lol.



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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> FWIW I view MA training / looking for schools like looking for an ice cream store. Different people like diiferent flavors. If a store has the best Chocolae in the world and you don't like Chocolate, than it's not for you.
> 
> For me, and any referral I would make, sparring without punching to the face is like not liking that chocolate.



I have to agree with this, as regards WTF sparring. We do offer KKW rank. We do not generally spar using the WTF ruleset.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

granfire said:


> I missed the part where you said how old your kid is.
> 
> Personally, in the beginning a good instructor in an ATA style school might help (some) girls more than a hard hitting place. I trained in an ATA offshoot organization. You can always cross train with a harder hitting club IMHO.
> 
> ...



I agree. Much better to have people look at you and say "Why the hell is he still wearing a white belt?" than "Why the hell is he wearing a black belt?"

When I returned after a long hiatus from training, I declined to mention ever having trained. I strapped on a white belt. When the instructors specifically asked me if I'd had other training, I said something along the lines of 'I watch a lot of action movies...'. My wife ratted me out, but I still refused to put the BB on until I'd earned it again.


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> When the instructors specifically asked me if I'd had other training, I said something along the lines of 'I watch a lot of action movies...'. My wife ratted me out, but I still refused to put the BB on until I'd earned it again.



Lol funny story. What was your reason for intentionally hiding your previous experience?



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## Dirty Dog (Dec 25, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> Lol funny story. What was your reason for intentionally hiding your previous experience?
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Because, like you, I'd been out of training for a long long time. I'd have looked like a putz wearing a BB. I didn't remember the Chang Hon forms (I've since relearned them). I didn't know the Palgwae forms required by this school. I didn't know the (optional) Taegeuk forms. In short, I didn't deserve a BB. The only thing my prior training meant was that I advanced far faster than the norm for this school. On average, 1st Dan takes 6-8 years here. I did it in 2. 


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## jks9199 (Dec 25, 2013)

A few thoughts.  

First, regarding your daughter's training...  The question is really are you happy with what you're seeing?  Are you comfortable with the teaching staff?  If so -- then she's probably in the right place.  As to the testing you witnessed... a lot depends on what level they were at.  If it was a very early test, maybe they're letting things slide, or judging more on preparation and daily observations then on test day performance.

With regard to your own training...  You've stayed in shape.  That doesn't mean you've retained the skills and knowledge of a black belt -- or that the black belt you earned as a child really translates into an adult black belt.  As Dirty Dog said -- why not start "fresh" and allow yourself to advance as rapidly as may happen, rather than look foolish?  If you start in another art -- certainly start fresh.


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## Eastpointvet (Dec 25, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> A few thoughts.
> 
> First, regarding your daughter's training...  The question is really are you happy with what you're seeing?  Are you comfortable with the teaching staff?  If so -- then she's probably in the right place.  As to the testing you witnessed... a lot depends on what level they were at.  If it was a very early test, maybe they're letting things slide, or judging more on preparation and daily observations then on test day performance.
> 
> With regard to your own training...  You've stayed in shape.  That doesn't mean you've retained the skills and knowledge of a black belt -- or that the black belt you earned as a child really translates into an adult black belt.  As Dirty Dog said -- why not start "fresh" and allow yourself to advance as rapidly as may happen, rather than look foolish?  If you start in another art -- certainly start fresh.



I am happy with what I'm seeing. I'm more concerned about the future if I had to narrow it down. I don't want her to outgrow the organization as I did once I reached BB.

As for myself, I agree with you. I meant that physically I have not been sedentary over the years but mentally I'm nowhere near where I was as a BB aside from basic technique.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 25, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> I agree. Much better to have people look at you and say "Why the hell is he still wearing a white belt?" than "Why the hell is he wearing a black belt?"
> QUOTE]
> 
> The school may disagree, for motivational reasons, and want you at a higher belt.  If other lower belts see a white belt who is pretty good and getting better fast, they may feel untalented while they struggle to improve. If that leads them to think "TKD isn't for me", then it becomes a revenue issue for the school.


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## kitkatninja (Dec 26, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> ...When I returned after a long hiatus from training, I declined to mention ever having trained. I strapped on a white belt. When the instructors specifically asked me if I'd had other training, I said something along the lines of 'I watch a lot of action movies...'. My wife ratted me out, but I still refused to put the BB on until I'd earned it again.



When I returned to training after a hiatus and moving to a different association, while in the beginning I didn't mention that I've trained before, I did have to disclose it.  If anything happened I didn't want any negative comeback on the insurance front, beside an instructor will always know by your techniques (even if it's rusty) that a person has been previous training.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 26, 2013)

kitkatninja said:


> When I returned to training after a hiatus and moving to a different association, while in the beginning I didn't mention that I've trained before, I did have to disclose it.  If anything happened I didn't want any negative comeback on the insurance front, beside an instructor will always know by your techniques (even if it's rusty) that a person has been previous training.



I believe your concerns about insurance are unfounded. 
We did discuss my prior training eventually, and I was offered the choice of going back to my prior rank and simply not testing further until I'd learned the curriculum up to the same rank. I declined. I just don't think it's reasonable to wear a rank when I don't know the material for that rank in the current school. Wearing it as a guest is one thing. But whatever rank I wear will reflect my knowledge of the art I'm currently studying.


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## Thousand Kicks (Dec 26, 2013)

I have seen a few things done with people who have previous. 

1. Start over as white belt. This way the teacher doesn't have to explain anything to anybody. All new students start at white belt. However, other students will always say, "He's not really a white belt"
2. After a series of assessments, you are awarded a rank based on what the teacher sees. The more you know from their system the higher the rank you are awarded. It is not possible to know all the specific requirements of the school, but you get some credit for previous training.
3. You are allowed to keep your BB (provided you can produce a valid certificate showing you attained the rank), but you are required to learn that schools specific requirements for all lower ranks. This usually happens if your previous training is recent. 


It mostly depends on you. If you are not comfortable wearing the BB in a new school after a long period of not training, just tell the instructor you wish to start at white belt.


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## Master Dan (Dec 27, 2013)

First what is your motivation for training? health self defense general well being and socializing with a compatible group, if so then its a good instructor that gives you all that and rank does not have that much value. On the other hand if your daughter has a desire to compete on a national and international level and you would like to be her coach then I highly recommend WTF and KKW. With regards to you having to wear a white belt I would never do that to an adult that could demonstrate good basics and a dedicated training ethic both for himself and his children. 1st Dan certification would come when you could meet all testing requirements based on the KKW testing procedures taking into account any physical limits if needed. I do not place a lot of stock in spinning and high jumping kicks for people over 40. Accurate controlled penetrating technique combined with balance and ability to perform both distant and close in fighting sport and non sport is a must other wise if you cannot truly defend yourself why bother. Others may disagree but I have been a bit horrified at some from the ATA that claim to have black belt rank even junior master level demonstrating very bad self defense and poor sparring technique more likened to aerobic kick boxing with no real thought of application, worse bad blocks and no concept of punching to any particular target and if they did make contact would have resulted in injury to themselves? 

I am sure there are those that are competent out there but for the most part I have found it to be a Paper mill?? I base this on the fact that I get a wide range of people from all over the United States that come here for months to a few years and that is what I have run into. 

I wish you all the best if I can be of any help please ask and there are no bad styles only bad instructors just my two cents


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## msmitht (Dec 27, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I'm new to the forums after scouring the threads over the past week. I'm delighted to join the community and I hope to be apart of the many interesting conversations that take place here.
> 
> ...


You also might want to look into a bjj class to teach her some self defense in case she is thrown down on the ground.


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## Balrog (Dec 29, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I'm new to the forums after scouring the threads over the past week. I'm delighted to join the community and I hope to be apart of the many interesting conversations that take place here.
> 
> ...



If I might chime in here....

ATA is global friendly.  The last numbers that I heard indicate that we have well over 2000 schools world-wide.  

As far as the negative remarks about ATA go, please keep in mind that the vast majority of them originate from people who know very little about the ATA, or from people who washed out of the ATA.  Now, having said that....yes, ATA has some warts, and some of the complaints are justified.  Any large organization of people will always have some folks who wind up under the left end of the bell curve.  Unfortunately, they tend to be the ones who get publicity and then everyone thinks they represent the organization as a whole.  You may be hearing from someone who had a bad experience in *one* ATA school.  That school is not indicative of the organization as a whole.  

Some people are not happy with some ATA schools that have adopted business models that tend to rub people the wrong way.  But amazingly enough, those same business models are in use in other organizations as well.  There is the business aspect of running the school, and then there is the teaching aspect of keeping the quality of instruction high within the school.

Bottom line is this...if you are happy with the level of instruction in your local ATA school, then stay there.  If you're not, talk to the instructor(s) and express your issues.  If you don't get a reasonable answer, then vote with your feet and go down the road to another school.  Visit that school, watch classes, talk with the students and instructors.  If you like what you see, then make the move.  

I've been with ATA for a long time - 2014 will be my 27th year.  I have disagreed with some of the things they have done, and some of those things have fallen by the wayside.  In the long run, however, ATA is continually trying to find ways to make martial arts training easier to get and more accessible to the general public, and to improve the quality of instruction that we offer.  Sometimes, the only way to do that is by trial and error, and we occasionally stub our toes.  But the vast majority of ATA instructors, I think, are oriented toward one goal, and that should be the goal of any instructor in any discipline whatsoever:  we all want to turn out students that are better than we are.

If you would like to continue this discussion off-line, feel free to PM me.  I'll be happy to answer any questions for you that I can.


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## msmitht (Dec 29, 2013)

Balrog said:


> If I might chime in here....
> 
> ATA is global friendly.  The last numbers that I heard indicate that we have well over 2000 schools world-wide.
> 
> ...


Hmm.
 How does one wash out of the ATA? I have seen black belt tests at one of their top schools and even those who forgot what to do passed.
World wide? There are only 43 schools listed outside the USA and several are not open anymore.


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## Rumy73 (Dec 29, 2013)

Eastpointvet said:


> Thanks for the quick reply!
> 
> To answer your question, I've read negative things about the organization in general and not about my daughter's individual school. I've monitored her instructors and I'm satisfied with their level of skill and dedication. However, at her recent exam for example, I was surprised to see group testing rather than the individual testing I was accustomed to. There was not a distinction between the kids who lazily executed their form compared to the kids who's dedication was quite apparent. The whole procedure felt like an informality rather than a test of skill as if just showing up guaranteed a promotion. The modern ATA appears very commercialized. TKD taught me discipline and respect at an early age so I'd like to see it taken more seriously from its practitioners. My peers, not just my master, pushed me to excel. My daughter is performing well, but I worry about her development if her classmates are not taking it seriously. That is a huge concern when I think about her training from an organizational stand point. Thats just one example from a handful of long term issues that may rise.
> 
> ...



What you are seeing in ATA is no different in some WTF schools. It is commercial and rarely do students fail tests.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 29, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> What you are seeing in ATA is no different in some WTF schools. It is commercial and rarely do students fail tests.


Agreed.


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## Gorilla (Dec 30, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> What you are seeing in ATA is no different in some WTF schools. It is commercial and rarely do students fail tests.



You are making a sweeping generalization based on your limited experience!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 30, 2013)

What's the generalization? He did say "some" WTF schools.


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## Gorilla (Dec 31, 2013)

Some!!! Ok but it seems "some" people on here have an axe to grind with WTF oriented sport schools!


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## granfire (Dec 31, 2013)

Gorilla said:


> Some!!! Ok but it seems "some" people on here have an axe to grind with WTF oriented sport schools!



Or ATA, or ITF....


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## Gorilla (Dec 31, 2013)

granfire said:


> Or ATA, or ITF....



I have no problem with any Martial Art...they all have good and bad!!!


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## Eastpointvet (Jan 1, 2014)

Happy New Year everyone!

Thanks for the thought provoking replies. After considering most of the responses here, I've made a few moves to figure out what's best for my daughter and I. 

I decided to test both disciplines (shotokan karate & WTF TKD)  out to see what I would respond to more naturally. I was able to find two reputable dojos in my city. The karate trial class occurred this past Monday. My upcoming TKD trial class will take place on the 6th. The karate class was amazing but challenging. The instructor could tell I had previous training and mentioned I would most likely be placed in an accelerated program although I would begin at white belt. I'm totally fine with that. Once I've attended the TKD class, I will make a decision on which to attend.

As for my daughter, she had an accident on Christmas Day and has fractured her arm. She's out of training for 6 weeks unfortunately. Before the accident, she expressed her thoughts towards staying in ATA. Maybe after she heals, she will be more open minded but I'll support her on whatever is the best fit for her currently.

I'll keep everyone updated!


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## granfire (Jan 1, 2014)

I hope she mends quickly.

I know I keep missing it, how old she is, but at a younger age, friends make or break the experience. 
As long as the school does not go off on the deep end, sometimes well enough has to do. 
Little girls are sometimes difficult to encourage.


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## WaterGal (Jan 1, 2014)

If she's happy at the ATA school now, of course she'll want to stay there, especially if she's got friends there.  Now, if _you_ like the WTF school, you could always take her by there and have her try the trial class/period just to see. 

But I wanna say, as somebody that teaches KKW/WTF-style TKD: quality has more to do with the instructor and school environment than with the organization or style.  Not all WTF schools are great. It's quite possible that ATA school is as good or better than the WTF schools around.  Don't get too hung up on that.

I hope she heals up soon!


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## Twin Fist (Jan 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because, like you, I'd been out of training for a long long time. I'd have looked like a putz wearing a BB. I didn't remember the Chang Hon forms (I've since relearned them). I didn't know the Palgwae forms required by this school. I didn't know the (optional) Taegeuk forms. In short, I didn't deserve a BB. The only thing my prior training meant was that I advanced far faster than the norm for this school. On average, 1st Dan takes 6-8 years here. I did it in 2.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.



this is an impressive post, and it is 100% correct.

put on the white belt, it will speak well of your character


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## Eastpointvet (Jan 4, 2014)

granfire said:


> I hope she mends quickly.
> 
> I know I keep missing it, how old she is, but at a younger age, friends make or break the experience.
> As long as the school does not go off on the deep end, sometimes well enough has to do.
> Little girls are sometimes difficult to encourage.



Shes turning 8 in a few weeks


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