# Eight Key Concepts



## karatemom3

I'm curious, were the eight key concepts of martial arts written by Grandmaster Whang Kee?  Do other martial arts use them?


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## Touch Of Death

karatemom3 said:


> I'm curious, were the eight key concepts of martial arts written by Grandmaster Whang Kee?  Do other martial arts use them?


I'm guessing yes.


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## Makalakumu

I haven't seen them as they are written in other martial arts, but other styles of karate, have similar teachings.  Some have ten concepts, some have five, some have twenty.  In what I have seen, the TSD concepts usually get covered by other parts of other arts esoteric teaching.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

What are the "8 key concepts"? I've never heard of them, but that doesn't mean the arts I study/I've studied/dabbled in don't just have them under a different name, or a different way of explaining the same idea.


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## Makalakumu

http://kenyons.com/8-key-concepts.html




> The eight key concepts of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and their literal translation:
> 
> 1. Yong Gi - Courage (Brave / Energy)
> 2. Chung Shin Tong Il - Concentration (Clean, Clear / God / Govern / One)
> 3. In Neh - Endurance (Endure / Patience)
> 4. Chung Jik - Honesty (Right / Straight)
> 5. Kyum Son - Humility (Humble / Humble)
> 6. Him Cho Chung - Control of Power (Power / Manage / Right)
> 7. Shin Chook - Tension and Relaxation (Relaxation, Expand / Tension, Contract)
> 8. Wan Gup - Speed Control (Slow / Fast)


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## seasoned

[h=2]"Eight precepts" as found in the document "Bubishi"[/h]Miyagi Chojun Sensei chose the name "Goju Ryu" from the "Eight Precepts" of traditional Chinese Kempo found in the document "Bubishi" and are as follows:


*The mind is one with heaven and earth. 

The circulatory rhythm of the body is similar to the cycle of the sun and the moon. 

The way of inhaling and exhaling is hardness and softness. 

Act in accordance with time and change. 

Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought. 

The feet must advance and retreat, separate and meet. 

The eyes do not miss even the slightest change. 

The ears listen well in all directions.*


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## Flying Crane

well, my system, Tibetan White Crane, has four:

Chuan - Ruthless cruelty
Siam - Dodge or Evade
Chuin - Attack, Penetrate, Charge aggressively
Git - Intercept

so I guess ours are a little different.


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## seasoned

Flying Crane said:


> well, my system, Tibetan White Crane, has four:
> 
> _*Chuan - Ruthless cruelty*_
> Siam - Dodge or Evade
> Chuin - Attack, Penetrate, Charge aggressively
> Git - Intercept
> 
> so I guess ours are a little different.



I like this one very much.


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## karatemom3

Thank you Makalakuma for posting the Eight Key Concepts.  It would have taken me an hour to do it.  I did not see any reference to them in "Tang Soo Do" Volume One which makes me wonder if they are not from the onset of Tang Soo Do but added later and perhaps in the US.       Tibetan White Crane must not be a defensive art!


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## mook jong man

In my lineage of Wing Chun they are called the Five Principles.
The Principles consist of -

Simplicity
Directness
Economy of movement
Practicality
Minimum use of brute strength


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## Flying Crane

seasoned said:


> I like this one very much.



yeah, the idea behind it is that fighting isn't for play.  If the bad guy is really intent on going after you, then you give him everything you've got.  If it isn't worth giving all you've got, then there probably isn't a reason to fight at all.  When you make the decision to unleash hell, there had better be good reason for it.


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## Flying Crane

karatemom3 said:


> Tibetan White Crane must not be a defensive art!



It certainly can be defensive, but when you need to defend yourself for real, you be decisive and you end it RIGHT NOW.  When you defend yourself, you go after the bad guy.  You don't sit back and be passive, responding to what he does.  First opportunity that arises, you go on the attack and don't stop until he's done.


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## cdunn

Flying Crane said:


> yeah, the idea behind it is that fighting isn't for play. If the bad guy is really intent on going after you, then you give him everything you've got. If it isn't worth giving all you've got, then there probably isn't a reason to fight at all. When you make the decision to unleash hell, there had better be good reason for it.


 
It is often obscured in American schools, but in the original copy of the Tang Soo Do manual, there were, in addition to the key concepts, ten 'Articles of Faith'. One translates roughly as: 'Kill in justice.'


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## karatemom3

Flying Crane,  Your point is well taken.  I've had a very limited view of martial arts and am learning a lot here.  I don't think it would go over well to teach 4  and 5 year old's in my school Chuan-Ruthless cruelty  but we could have a more aggressive self defensive program for adults.


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## dancingalone

cdunn said:


> It is often obscured in American schools, but in the original copy of the Tang Soo Do manual, there were, in addition to the key concepts, ten 'Articles of Faith'. One translates roughly as: 'Kill in justice.'



The Articles of Faith are an interesting transplant from Korean culture.  They seem to change in minor ways depending on the TSD school.

1. Be loyal to your country.

2. Be obedient to your parents.

3. Be loving between husband and wife.

4. Be cooperative between brothers.

5. Be faithful between friends.

6. Be respectful to your elders.

7. Be faithful between teacher and student.

8. Know the difference between good and evil.*  (I've also seen this written as Kill only in Justice and Honor)*

9. Never retreat in battle.

10. Always finish what you start.


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## seasoned

Flying Crane said:


> yeah, the idea behind it is that *fighting isn't for play.*  If the bad guy is really intent on going after you, then you *give him everything you've got.*  If it isn't worth giving all you've got, then there probably isn't a reason to fight at all.  *When you make the decision to unleash hell, there had better be good reason for it.*


This is the crux of the defining purpose of the traditional arts as they were intended. Somewhere along the line the guts of the arts were obscured while a less violent more excepted means of getting into shape, sports oriented, turn the other cheek attitude emerged. In doing this the dojo of "old" became obsolete and antiquated, and rightly so because of the onset of "karate is for everybody. I am not putting down either way because it is up to each and every person to choose for themselves what is right or wrong for them. The "Precepts/Concepts" written within this thread elude to this, as we read between the lines. :asian:


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## cdunn

dancingalone said:


> The Articles of Faith are an interesting transplant from Korean culture. They seem to change in minor ways depending on the TSD school.
> ...
> 
> 8. Know the difference between good and evil.* (I've also seen this written as Kill only in Justice and Honor)*
> 
> ...



It will always change with your instructor. But for #8, the translation used in the 1978 edition of the English Translation of the manual was 'Kill only in Justice and Honor', or a close variant there to. And it was explained to me by my instructor that he used the 'good and evil' variant because he couldn't very well teach the other version in a commercial school with children.


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## Flying Crane

karatemom3 said:


> Flying Crane, Your point is well taken. I've had a very limited view of martial arts and am learning a lot here. I don't think it would go over well to teach 4 and 5 year old's in my school Chuan-Ruthless cruelty but we could have a more aggressive self defensive program for adults.



yes, this is simply recognizing where these methods came from.  They are rooted in an era when there was no telephone with which to call for help, there was no trusted police department to call, there was little in the way of criminal justice and a legal system to deal with criminals.  When it came to defending oneself, there was no one to call and you needed to handle it yourself.  This all makes sense when you realize that was the society in which these fighting methods were first developed.

Times have changed and this kind of attitude isn't always appropriate nowadays.  But it's important to understand that bit of history, to have the perspective.


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## SahBumNimRush

dancingalone said:


> The Articles of Faith are an interesting transplant from Korean culture.  They seem to change in minor ways depending on the TSD school.
> 
> 1. Be loyal to your country.
> 
> 2. Be obedient to your parents.
> 
> 3. Be loving between husband and wife.
> 
> 4. Be cooperative between brothers.
> 
> 5. Be faithful between friends.
> 
> 6. Be respectful to your elders.
> 
> 7. Be faithful between teacher and student.
> 
> 8. Know the difference between good and evil.*  (I've also seen this written as Kill only in Justice and Honor)*
> 
> 9. Never retreat in battle.
> 
> 10. Always finish what you start.



As I understand it, HWANG Kee drew some of the philosophy and traditions of Tang Soo Do from the Hwarang.  

Code of Hwarang:


Loyalty to King and Country 
Respect and obedience to one&#8217;s parents 
Loyalty and trust of friends 
Courage; never retreat in battle 
Prudence in the use of deadly force; never kill unjustly 

Also, it is why we trim our doboks in the fashion that we do.  As I understand it, the Hwarang trimmed their uniforms to distinguish themselves from other warriors/soldiers.  My KJN likened it to a West Point graduate vs. enlisted men.


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## ShotoNoob

Makalakumu said:


> Kenyon s Soo Bahk Do Martial Arts San Diego


|
Link no longer shows "8 key concepts."  This is the kind of conceptual framework I'm interested in exploring.....


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## reeskm

Agreed ShotoNoob, it's interesting to think about the origins. Without a doubt Hwang Kee was influenced by dojo precepts (a.k.a. dojo kun or dojang hun) used in Japan and Okinawa by all the famous Japanese style founders such as Mabuni, Miyagi, Toyama and Funakoshi.

Hwang Kee wrote many lists and precepts down, and the origins to them are varied and some not widely known. 5 of the _10 Articles of Faith_ come from the Korean monk Won Gwang and were given to the Hwarang as advice in how to conduct themselves. It is the same as the "Code of the Hwarang". Hwa Rang Do also uses the same code, naturally, as they style themselves 21st century Hwarang.

I've seen #8 also as "Kill with Justice and with Honour" and agree with the earlier comment that it was modified in the 70's for commercial schools because parent's might complain about their kids being taught to kill for great justice! I would add that it was also changed in Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo or tournament schools where this rule does not transfer over well to point matches.

Don't confuse the _10 Articles of Faith on Mental Training_ with the _8 Key Concepts_.

There is also Hwang Kee's _5 Moo Do Values _(Moo Do for the Japanese stylists is Bu Do - Martial Way).

5 Moo Do Values:
1. Lyok Sa (History)
2. Jong Tong (Tradition)
3. Ki Kahng and Chan Kyong (Discipline and Respect)
4. Chul Hak (Philosophy)
5. Ki Sool (Technique)

Again, for reference the 8 key concepts are:
1. Yong Gi (Courage)
2. Chung Shin Tong Il (Concentration)
3. In Neh (Endurance)
4. Chung Jik (Honesty)
5. Kyum Son (Humility)
6. Him Cho Chung (Control of Power)
7. Shin Chook (Tension and Relaxation)
8. Wan Gup (Speed Control)

I'm currently researching these origins. I put it on my back burner but this thread is useful! If you have any insights share away


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## reeskm

There are also three principles of the Moo Duk Kwan:
1. Responsibility
2. Sincerity
3. Justice

There are also a massive amount of other "lists":
(I shamelessly copied them from here to save time)

*11 POINTS OF EMPHASIS ON MENTAL TRAINING:*
1.  Reference for nature.
2.  Physical concentration. (Ki-up)
3.  Courtesy.
4.  Modesty.
5.  Thankfulness.
6.  Self-sacrifice.
7.  Cultivate courage.
8.  Chastity.
9.  Be strong inside and mild outside.
10. Endurance.
11. Reading ability.

*10-Points of Emphasis on Physical Development:*
1. Vocal exhalation, for thoractic strength (Ki-yup).
2. Focus of sight.
3.Continuous balance during movements.
4.Fexibility of the body.
5. Correct muscle tone for maximum power.
6. High and low speed techniques.
7. Exactness of techniques.
8. Adjustment for proper distance.
9. Proper breathing for endurance.
10. Conditioning of the hands and feet.

*5-Requisites on Mental Training*
1. Oneness with nature.
2. Complete awareness of environment.
3. Experience.
4. Conscience.
5. Culture.

*Matters that Demand Special Attention While Training:*
1. Purpose of training should be the enhancement of mental and physical self.
2. Sincerity is necessary.
3. Effort is necessary.
4. Constant schedule during practice.
5. Do your best when training.
6.Train in the basic spirit of Moo Duk Kwan.
7. Regularly spaced practice sessions.
8. Obey without objection the word of instructors or seniors.
9. Don't be overly ambitious.
10. Pay attention to every aspect of your training.
11. Pay attention to the order of training.
12. Get instruction step by step with new forms and techniques.
13. Try to conquer when you feel idleness.
14. Cleanliness is desired after practice is finished.
*
Guidance Policy of The Moo Duk Kwan:*
1. Protect the art of tae kwon do with justice.
2. Cultivate character and personality through training for discipline.
3. Unity through sincerity and courtesy.


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## ShotoNoob

reeskm said:


> Agreed ShotoNoob, it's interesting to think about the origins. Without a doubt Hwang Kee was influenced by dojo precepts (a.k.a. dojo kun or dojang hun) used in Japan and Okinawa by all the famous Japanese style founders such as Mabuni, Miyagi, Toyama and Funakoshi....
> 
> Again, for reference the 8 key concepts are:
> 1. Yong Gi (Courage)
> 2. Chung Shin Tong Il (Concentration)
> 3. In Neh (Endurance)
> 4. Chung Jik (Honesty)
> 5. Kyum Son (Humility)
> 6. Him Cho Chung (Control of Power)
> 7. Shin Chook (Tension and Relaxation)
> 8. Wan Gup (Speed Control)
> 
> I'm currently researching these origins. I put it on my back burner but this thread is useful! If you have any insights share away


|
Much of your recent post(s), thanks by the way for the specifications of these qualities, seems aimed at the 'Budo' aspect.  What interests me about these 8 key concepts is that they seem to be aimed at the foundational skills rather than technical form.  At another T, a Wado Ryu practitioner who had later trained Tang Soo Doo, felt that TSD was 'simple.'  My feeling is that spelling out underlying qualities may seem simple, yet the skills embodied in applying these concepts is anything but simple.
|
As you develop your ideas & research, please know I'm welcome to your additional posts on this material about Korean 'karates' if you will.  I'm also interested in perhaps looking more at some of the Chinese styles.
|
In closing, I think it very important to consider why Hwang Kee adopted certain precepts from the Japanese.  I've always felt, criticisms aside, that the Japanese always thought seriously about karate, even in making some of the modern changes we might have some reservation about.  I always mention I don't really care for Shotokan karate, yet I'm a big proponent of Gichin Funakoshi and later Japanese Masters who evolved Shotokan....
|
Thanks again....


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## Runs With Fire

We have five codes
*1 loyalty to country: *Be loyal to the country in which you live and follow its laws
* 2 obedience to authority:   Follow the leadership of your parents, supervisors, and lawmakers* 
* 3 honor friendships: *Be loyal in thought, word, and deed to your friends
*4 no retreat in battle: *Never shrink from any of life’s battles.  Fight the good fight
*5 in fighting choose with sense and honor:* Only use what is necessary to win the battle.  Do not cause great harm when none is needed

*
*

We also have seven tenants
* 1 Integrity:*Sincerity, completeness, soundness of action
*2 Concentration*: Close attention to all details through correct thought.
*3 Perseverance*: Never giving up what one has set to do. Always striving for excellence
*4 Respect and Obedience*: Honor everything and be obedient to those in power above you
* 5 Self Control*: Correct in all actions, thought, word, and deed. Think before acting
*6 Humility*: Humbleness of mind and action--not bragging or showy
*7 Indomitable Spirit*: Unstoppable actions and thoughts--never wavering from the chosen path


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## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> At another T, a Wado Ryu practitioner who had later trained Tang Soo Doo, felt that TSD was 'simple.' My feeling is that spelling out underlying qualities may seem simple, yet the skills embodied in applying these concepts is anything but simple.



The hyungs are simple compared to Wado ones, in the interest of being different from Japanese styles I believe that TSD took out much to try to make it different, however it's not, it's just simpler. Stances which are used in Wado are replaced by simpler ones, other movements are also replaced by simpler ones. If I could I would demonstrate the exact differences.
As for moral concepts instructing one on how to behave, for me they have no place  in martial arts.


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## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> The hyungs are simple compared to Wado ones, in the interest of being different from Japanese styles I believe that TSD took out much to try to make it different, however it's not, it's just simpler. Stances which are used in Wado are replaced by simpler ones, other movements are also replaced by simpler ones. If I could I would demonstrate the exact differences.


|
Thanks for pointing out some distinctions in the form of the curriculum....   I propose some of the changes were made to give Tang Soo Do and other Korean arts based off Japanese models, a national &cultural identity separate & distinct from Japanese.
|


Tez3 said:


> As for moral concepts instructing one on how to behave, for me they have no place  in martial arts.


|
Morality is a common thread through all styles of traditional martial arts.  Why the originators all went in this direction is a broad, humanities question.
|
I wouldn't say moral concepts have no place in martial arts.  I would say it's both a societal & personal choice.  I do agree that moral concepts and the martial capability should be addressed as separate human dimensions.  The first is the conscience and the second is the tool.  The first dictates behavior.  The second dictates ability to function....


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## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> I wouldn't say moral concepts have no place in martial arts.



If one has morals then one has morals regardless of what one is doing, people thinking that one has to have separate morals and values because they do martial arts is redundant thinking.


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## ShotoNoob

Tez3 said:


> If one has morals then one has morals regardless of what one is doing, people thinking that one has to have separate morals and values because they do martial arts is redundant thinking.


|
Ah, I wouldn't put it in those semantics....  I think it's pretty clear that the traditional martial art founders sought to emphasize moral behavior over immoral behavior.  That's why the issue is spoken of separately.  To distinguish morals from lack of morals.
|
By pure logic, I would say you are precisely correct.


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## Tez3

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ah, I wouldn't put it in those semantics....  I think it's pretty clear that the traditional martial art founders sought to emphasize moral behavior over immoral behavior.  That's why the issue is spoken of separately.  To distinguish morals from lack of morals.
> |
> By pure logic, I would say you are precisely correct.




However TMAs originate from the East where religion, ethics and morals are far more tied together in everyday life than they are in the West. Morals and ethics in martial arts would be part of the whole not separated into different boxes as life is in the West. here there's martial arts, work, religion and morality all different things, thought of as a separate thing. My faith means I'm far more akin to the East in that everything I do is bound up in how and what I do everyday. I cannot (or should not) act differently in the dojo than I can from everyday life so to have separate 'codes' or 'principles' for martial arts should be unnecessary. 
The founders of Eastern styles were only reiterating what was common in everyday life for them and their countrymen, it's Westerners who have taken it and made it into something else.


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## Oldbear343

Tez3 said:


> However TMAs originate from the East where religion, ethics and morals are far more tied together in everyday life than they are in the West. Morals and ethics in martial arts would be part of the whole not separated into different boxes as life is in the West. here there's martial arts, work, religion and morality all different things, thought of as a separate thing. My faith means I'm far more akin to the East in that everything I do is bound up in how and what I do everyday. I cannot (or should not) act differently in the dojo than I can from everyday life so to have separate 'codes' or 'principles' for martial arts should be unnecessary.
> The founders of Eastern styles were only reiterating what was common in everyday life for them and their countrymen, it's Westerners who have taken it and made it into something else.


You are spot - on here ☺


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## Oldbear343

Having studied both TKD and Japanese arts I would say the majority of established styles/school have similar codes of ethics across the board.  Ted is correct in stating that oriental culture integrates rather than splits ethics and morals into the whole culture.
However, to teach any martial art without some kind of ethical underpinning would surely be irresponsible at the very least.  I have trained with many people who follow sound ethical lives, but also some who do not.  So there has to be an element of guidance.
Personally, I find the common 5 strands of TKD (which are strikingly similar to the Dojo Code of many karate styles) touch me deeply:
Courtesy
Integrity
Perseverance
Self-Control
Indomitable Spirit

Just my 10-penn'orth. ...


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## Oldbear343

Sorry Tez,  autocorrect turned you into Ted....


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## Tez3

Oldbear343 said:


> Sorry Tez,  autocorrect turned you into Ted....



S'okay you can  call me Irene which is my name if you want!


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> However TMAs originate from the East where religion, ethics and morals are far more tied together in everyday life than they are in the West. Morals and ethics in martial arts would be part of the whole not separated into different boxes as life is in the West. here there's martial arts, work, religion and morality all different things, thought of as a separate thing. My faith means I'm far more akin to the East in that everything I do is bound up in how and what I do everyday. I cannot (or should not) act differently in the dojo than I can from everyday life so to have separate 'codes' or 'principles' for martial arts should be unnecessary.
> The founders of Eastern styles were only reiterating what was common in everyday life for them and their countrymen, it's Westerners who have taken it and made it into something else.


Tez, I think instead of morals, a better term would be character. When you consider that anything we set out to do is a task, and it takes timing to do that task, and if you want that task done right, you seek those with higher character. What does it take to achieve higher character? Well, morals and ethics are a start.


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## TSDTexan

SahBumNimRush said:


> As I understand it, HWANG Kee drew some of the philosophy and traditions of Tang Soo Do from the Hwarang.
> 
> Code of Hwarang:
> 
> 
> Loyalty to King and Country
> Respect and obedience to one&#8217;s parents
> Loyalty and trust of friends
> Courage; never retreat in battle
> Prudence in the use of deadly force; never kill unjustly
> 
> Also, it is why we trim our doboks in the fashion that we do.  As I understand it, the Hwarang trimmed their uniforms to distinguish themselves from other warriors/soldiers.  My KJN likened it to a West Point graduate vs. enlisted men.


This uniform was in a museum in Korea, Hwang Lee modeled his uniform off of it.


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## reeskm

Tez3 said:


> The hyungs are simple compared to Wado ones, in the interest of being different from Japanese styles I believe that TSD took out much to try to make it different, however it's not, it's just simpler. Stances which are used in Wado are replaced by simpler ones, other movements are also replaced by simpler ones. If I could I would demonstrate the exact differences.



Tez3, I used to think like you did regarding the forms. 

Upon closer inspection, the forms that the MDK SBD/TSD organization uses are not modified or missing significant material from Japanese schools. In fact, apart from very tiny changes to certain movements, they are precisely identical to Kata from the following styles:
-Pyung Ahn are identical to JKA Shotokan Heian froms (from the 1950s)
-Kong Sang Koon is identical to the shitei-kata (WKF) version of Kanku Dai (with two changes: removal of back kick in opening sequence, and addition of a hammer fist after each turn around, low spear hand and upper high block)
-Jindo is identical to the Wado and Shito-ryu Chinto forms, virtually move for move, with the exception that instead of a vertical elbow near the final turn, we do a horizontal one.

I suspect we have similarities with the Renbukai and Shudokan forms, but since there are few reliable videos on youtube showing forms from those schools in the 1950-1970s, when the Moodukkwan, jidokwan and renbukan memebers would visit each other and train together, I can't finish comparing these "styles".


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## reeskm

Runs With Fire said:


> We have five codes
> *1 loyalty to country: *Be loyal to the country in which you live and follow its laws
> *[...]
> 5 in fighting choose with sense and honor:* Only use what is necessary to win the battle.  Do not cause great harm when none is needed



These are the modern TKD version of the 5 teachings of the monk Won Gwang, taught to the Hwarang. They are simply paraphrased. To my knowledge, using these in modern martial arts was Hwang Kee's unique idea and this seperates him greatly from Japanese and Okinawan styles and their dojo precepts and teachings. He dug this up from the 14th century and started promoting this in his MooDukKwan. If you are TKD MooDukKwan in your history, it would not surprise me that you would still have these in your curriculum.



Runs With Fire said:


> We also have seven tenants
> * 1 Integrity:*Sincerity, completeness, soundness of action
> *[...]
> 7 Indomitable Spirit*: Unstoppable actions and thoughts--never wavering from the chosen path


These are influenced by Kukki TKD (TKDers, please correct me if I'm wrong). They are definitely part of all modern TKD curriculums, regardless of what your Kwan history would be, if any. Most traditional TSD schools do not use these tenets, because they were derived later during the TKD unification movement in the 1960s.


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## Runs With Fire

my school is traditional Tung Soo Do


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## Tez3

reeskm said:


> Tez3, I used to think like you did regarding the forms.
> 
> Upon closer inspection, the forms that the MDK SBD/TSD organization uses are not modified or missing significant material from Japanese schools. In fact, apart from very tiny changes to certain movements, they are precisely identical to Kata from the following styles:
> -Pyung Ahn are identical to JKA Shotokan Heian froms (from the 1950s)
> -Kong Sang Koon is identical to the shitei-kata (WKF) version of Kanku Dai (with two changes: removal of back kick in opening sequence, and addition of a hammer fist after each turn around, low spear hand and upper high block)
> -Jindo is identical to the Wado and Shito-ryu Chinto forms, virtually move for move, with the exception that instead of a vertical elbow near the final turn, we do a horizontal one.
> 
> I suspect we have similarities with the Renbukai and Shudokan forms, but since there are few reliable videos on youtube showing forms from those schools in the 1950-1970s, when the Moodukkwan, jidokwan and renbukan memebers would visit each other and train together, I can't finish comparing these "styles".




I have to disagree, if you look at the Wado Ryu Pinan series then there are considerably more movements than in the equivalent of the TSD ones.


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## TSDTexan

Tez3 said:


> I have to disagree, if you look at the Wado Ryu Pinan series then there are considerably more movements than in the equivalent of the TSD ones.



Hey Tez? I have a question for you.

I know that Wado-ryu has Nidan and Shodan reversed when compared Shotokan Karate. But I was wondering if you could Please help me chart this out from Wado to TSD or vice versa


Pinan Nidan -( Despite being called "second", this kata is taught first) = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Shodan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Sandan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Yondan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?

Pinan Godan = TSD Pyong-Ahn?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TSD Pyong-Ahn Cho Dan = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Ee Dan  = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Sam Dan  = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Sa Dan  = Wado-Ryu Pinan?

TSD Pyong-Ahn Oh Dan  = Wado-Ryu Pinan?






Ready Stance.

Turn to the left 90 degrees and Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn 180 degrees to the right and Low Block. Front Stance.

Move right blocking arm towards groin rotating the wrist 180 degrees until palm faces outward. Slide right foot back towards right foot forming an ‘L’ with heels about 3 inches apart. Back should be bent slightly.

Straighten body up. Move straightened right arm in a large clockwise circle, first crossing in front of body, over your head, rotating the wrist 180 degrees and end with the arm straight out to the right parallel with the ground about collar bone height. Turn body 90 degrees to the right stepping in the direction of the out stretched arm and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn to the left 90 degrees and with waist-twist left arm Low Block. Cross arms and left arm Middle Knife Hand Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and right arm High Defense. Good twist, Front Stance.

Step forward and left arm High Defense. Good twist, Front Stance.

Step forward and right arm High Defense. Good twist, Front Stance. Ki-yup.

Turn 270 degrees to the left and left arm Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn 180 degrees to the right and Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Turn 90 degrees to the left and Low Block. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance.

Step forward and Middle Punch. Front Stance. Ki-yup.

Right hand moves, open palmed, behind back at waist. Left hand moves, open palmed, up to right ear, palm facing ear. Raise left knee until thigh is parallel with the floor. Turn 270 degrees to the left; place the left leg down in a Fighting Stance.

Move left arm down and right arm up in a Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Turn 45 degrees to the right and right arm Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Turn 135 degrees to the right and right arm Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Turn 45 degrees to the left and left arm Low Knife Hand Block. Fighting Stance.

Return to Ready Stance

Bow


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## Tez3

This is the order of Wado katas, we don't have the equivalent of Kee Cho Hyung Ee Boo or Sam Boo. Wado videos here show the founder performing the kata, an impeccable source  


Pinan Nidan  (Pyung Ahn Cho Dan)





Pinan Shodan (Pyung Ahn Ee Dan)





Pinan Sandan ((Pyung Ahn Sam Dan)





Pinan Yodan  (Pyung Ahn Sa Dan)





Pinan Godan  (Pyung Ahn Oh Dan)





Then
we do Kushanku and after Naihanchi.

Hironori Otsuka sensei - Kushanku - YouTube



Karate Wadoryu - YouTube


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## reeskm

Tez3 said:


> I have to disagree, if you look at the Wado Ryu Pinan series then there are considerably more movements than in the equivalent of the TSD ones.



I just can't agree either! I think you must be watching a bad version of the TSD version of the form. I do each and every move of the Wado version I found straight off of youtube. I'm convinced. Trust me, if I wasn't convinced, I wouldn't have said so. Or, has the Wado version changed over the years?
Didn't I post a link to the wado version?

So far the best match I've found for the TSD forms published in Hwang Kee's Volume 2 master text are old videos from the WUKO mid 1980's "official" forms. This makes sense, as at one point Hwang Kee was a member of WUKO, as a founding member of the AKF (Asian Karatedo Federation).

Even so, his older forms still don't skip a beat or miss many moves. You could say contemporary japanese karate-do has missed or changed the forms just as much as Hwang did. The argument to say TSD dropped moves just dosen't hold water.


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## Tez3

reeskm said:


> I just can't agree either! I think you must be watching a bad version of the TSD version of the form. I do each and every move of the Wado version I found straight off of youtube. I'm convinced. Trust me, if I wasn't convinced, I wouldn't have said so. Or, has the Wado version changed over the years?
> Didn't I post a link to the wado version?
> 
> So far the best match I've found for the TSD forms published in Hwang Kee's Volume 2 master text are old videos from the WUKO mid 1980's "official" forms. This makes sense, as at one point Hwang Kee was a member of WUKO, as a founding member of the AKF (Asian Karatedo Federation).
> 
> Even so, his older forms still don't skip a beat or miss many moves. You could say contemporary japanese karate-do has missed or changed the forms just as much as Hwang did. The argument to say TSD dropped moves just dosen't hold water.




Actually I have a Dan grade in TSD. The Wado Katas are done as I posted in the videos...as done by the founder of Wado Ryu, can't get much more authentic than that.


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## reeskm

I've watched those videos that you linked. Again, I don't see any appreciable difference regarding missing moves, that TSD dropped. Of course, Otsuka famously changed the embusen slightly and changed some of the stances, but to me I'm seeing the same thing. Oh, he also does Pinan #1 and #2 opposite modern Shotokan and TSD schools, but again this is not a case of missing moves.

But, is this what you are referring to? TSD is missing these changes that only Wado has?


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## Tez3

Comparing the hyungs and the katas in the books I have it's clear, by comparing move by move that there are significant differences. The Wado Kata book I have is by Shingo Ohgami and the TSD is by Grand master Kang Uk Lee. Perhaps it's specifically this style of TSD that is different?


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## karatemom3

karatemom3 said:


> I'm curious, were the eight key concepts of martial arts written by Grandmaster Hwang Kee?  Do other martial arts use them?


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## reeskm

Tez3 said:


> Comparing the hyungs and the katas in the books I have it's clear, by comparing move by move that there are significant differences. The Wado Kata book I have is by Shingo Ohgami and the TSD is by Grand master Kang Uk Lee. Perhaps it's specifically this style of TSD that is different?



I think we'll have to take this to another post! But to answer briefly - I've met Lee Kang Uk in person and trained with him at a day long seminar. I have his book, too. His techniques are the original and old school MDK and almost identical to Shotokan that I have ever seen when you look at the Pinan/Pyung-Ahn forms. The more I do this, the more I see how identical it is.

Any free material online or excerpts from that book by Shingo Ohgami? After all, Wado and Shotokan have the same roots, but a different take. We have Wado (Ohtsuka's) knife self defense and seated self defense sparring techniques in our system! And our one steps have a definite jiu-jitsu feel to them (ho sin sool is same kanjii as go shin jutsu.) I think there are ties between Korean Karate and Wado, but I can't find them. I am still looking for them.


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## reeskm

karatemom3 said:


> I'm curious, were the eight key concepts of martial arts written by Grandmaster Hwang Kee? Do other martial arts use them?



I believe they were written by him, but it is hard to find proof.

As for whether other arts use them, the answer is yes. They do not use them as a list of 8 concepts in the same order as Hwang wrote them, but each one of these concepts are integral to the martial arts, period.

So you will often see other arts such as Kendo promote the value of concentration, speed control and control of power and humility. Likewise, Miyagi (Goju) promoted the idea of tension and relaxation and speed control in his kata.


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## Tez3

reeskm said:


> I think we'll have to take this to another post! But to answer briefly - I've met Lee Kang Uk in person and trained with him at a day long seminar. I have his book, too. His techniques are the original and old school MDK and almost identical to Shotokan that I have ever seen when you look at the Pinan/Pyung-Ahn forms. The more I do this, the more I see how identical it is.
> 
> Any free material online or excerpts from that book by Shingo Ohgami? After all, Wado and Shotokan have the same roots, but a different take. We have Wado (Ohtsuka's) knife self defense and seated self defense sparring techniques in our system! And our one steps have a definite jiu-jitsu feel to them (ho sin sool is same kanjii as go shin jutsu.) I think there are ties between Korean Karate and Wado, but I can't find them. I am still looking for them.



The karate part of Wado certainly has Shotokan roots but karate is only a part of Wado, jujutsu is the other part of course. I've found in Wado many stances and techniques that differ quite a lot from TSD and that you don't find in Shotokan. I believe the 'body moving' concepts of Wado are different from Shotokan as well. I'm not sure about any connection between Wado and Korean karate, I've certainly never heard of any and looking at the founder's biography there's nothing to suggest any connection from his side. I'm not much of a historian when it comes to martial arts I'm afraid, perhaps Chris Parker is the one who may know more or be able to suggest lines of enquiry?
I'm a bit useless I'm afraid as far as knowing where to find anything online from Shingo Ohgami, I have his books, Cirdan may know more. There are a lot of articles on Wado available though.


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