# Can you help me confirm information regarding the association I trained in as a kid?



## NikOnder (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi guys,

First time posting. Please let me know if there is a better place or way to post this...
So, I have a five year old who is a very scrappy kid and has been getting into trouble for fighting at school. I was at the mall recently and saw this big kiosk with TKD information, magazines, etc. and kids decked out in black belts milling around. It got me to thinking that perhaps getting him involved in a martial art might be a great way to channel his energy. I spoke to one of the adults at the kiosk, a clearly overweight guy with all the regalia to indicate at least a 2nd or 3rd degree black belt, who didn't seem very helpful at all but was keen to let me know all about their holiday promotions and that they had locations in every major suburb of my city. Still interested, though, I took some literature and, thankfully, did some research when I got home. I think by now most of you have guessed that this was an ATA franchise. I'm not trying to put down the association at large, but as far as what I saw from the particular franchise that has the monopoly in my area, I was glad I took the time to do the research. 

Now, I said all that to say this: TKD is near to my heart because I spent several years training in this art when I was a kid and as such would prefer it be the art I start my kid in. When I was training I knew nothing about different styles, schools, associations, etc. It was just Tae Kwon Do to me. I had an excellent experience and would love to try to capture as close an experience for my kid as I can. So, I'm hoping that maybe if I can provide some of my anecdotal memories as well as the website for the school I went to, maybe you guys can point me in the right direction?

This was the school I went to: Memphis Kims Martial arts - Taekwondo and Judo / Memphis, TN

Master Kim was an exceptional leader and I was extremely fond of him. Based on what I can gather from the website I must have been studying Kukkiwon/WTF style at the core, although some things I remember don't seem to add up. Granted, this was the early to mid 90's, but here's what I remember: Mainly, the belt system was different as I recall. I was one stripe away from black belt when I quit (by then I had become a petulant teenager and failed to see the value in it anymore. I have regretted quitting  pretty much my entire life since). The way I remember, there was red belt, then 1st stripe, 2nd stripe, then brown belt, then 1st stripe then 2nd stripe then black belt. I may have the order of the colors backwards, but I was ranked whichever belt before black with 1st stripe when I quit. I should also add that it took me somewhere in the area of 3, maybe 4 years to reach this rank.

I also remember, to the best of my memory, we did full contact sparring. This also seems to deviate from Kukkiwon norms as far as I can tell. We had only head pads, gloves and feet pads. I remember this vividly because I often got paired up with a kid twice my size and I would always go home sore and bruised because he would really wail on me.  Also, almost everything we learned directly related to the art we learned the Korean names or words for; English was not used for sparring, forms, call and response during drills or anything of any symbolic or formal nature.  

It may also just be a fact that back then it was a "different time", but I remember at least once or twice when Master Kim had to use the dreaded bamboo sword to paddle a kid in front of the class who just would not stop acting up and get his **** together, but we respected him to death and didn't fear him at all. It was definitely tough, but I feel like it was a genuine experience and I would rather impart a similarly genuine experience for my kid, rather than the sterile, suburbanite,  "after-school-activity" that the ATA franchise around here seems to offer. 

So, my questions are: First and foremost, given the anecdotal info I've given and the information from the website, can anyone here more knowledgeable than myself suggest a school in the Raleigh-Durham, NC area that would be a similar match for my child? I know it sounds like asking strangers to do homework for me, but the fact is I just don't have enough inside knowledge to know what to look for to find the best school out of the non-ATA options available here.

Secondly, I know it's been at least 20 years since I practiced, but do schools generally keep records of students and rankings, etc? I don't presume that I could just call and request a transcript or whatever then walk into a random dojo and wave it around now, at 34 years of age, and be like "Hey, I'm a red belt first stripe, let's get that black belt!" ....but, I sure would love to have some kind of documentation from that period of my life and the effort and time I put into it, if nothing else at least for my own satisfaction and so I can show my son that I was a TKD kid, too, once upon a time.

Sorry for the insanely long post, but I appreciate whatever input you guys can offer. Sincerely.


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## Balrog (Dec 22, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> ...snip...
> rather than the sterile, suburbanite,  "after-school-activity" that the ATA franchise around here seems to offer.
> ...


Well, I might be just a little bit biased, but you should go back and try one of the ATA schools.  Most of them are owned by either Master Wegmann or Master Allen, both of whom I know to be excellent instructors.  I'm quite sure they have some kind of intro program where you can "get your feet wet" and get a feel for the school and the teaching style.

Please trust me when I tell you that there is nothing "sterile" about training in the ATA.


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## TrueJim (Dec 22, 2016)

If you go to Kim's Facebook page, you can see that they are wearing conventional sparring gear nowadays, so what you experienced may have just been a product of that era. Schools that do Kukkiwon/WTF-style can have wildly different color-belt systems, so you can't really use belt-colors to judge how Kukki-ish a school may be. I don't know if any schools still paddle nowadays; at our school punishment is usually doing pushups with clasped hands (they hurt!). There's definitely schools out there though that still stress discipline. 

I have some TKD friends in the Raleigh area...I pinged them for some school recommendations, but let me ask...is there a specific region within Raleigh-Durham that would be more convenient for you?  (I went to grad school at NC State -- Go Wolfpack!)  Raleigh-Durham is a big area.

Generally speaking, I don't think most schools keep records for many years of color-belt ranks. Black-belt ranks yes, but not color-belt ranks. I think your best bet is to go take taekwondo with your son. ;-) That's what I did -- best decision ever!  After many, many years away, I restarted at white and worked up through the ranks with my son -- it was fun!

(Aside: just took and passed my 2nd dan test this past Saturday.)


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## NikOnder (Dec 22, 2016)

Balrog said:


> Well, I might be just a little bit biased, but you should go back and try one of the ATA schools.  Most of them are owned by either Master Wegmann or Master Allen, both of whom I know to be excellent instructors.  I'm quite sure they have some kind of intro program where you can "get your feet wet" and get a feel for the school and the teaching style.
> 
> Please trust me when I tell you that there is nothing "sterile" about training in the ATA.



I apologize if I came off sounding rude, that was just the impression I got from the mall experience and looking at the materials I was given, it just seemed awfully....corporate...to me. Researching online later didn't help to change that first impression. Personally, I want a place that my kid would get his butt spanked for goofing off and not taking things seriously, which is the experience I had. Not an experience tailored to him that he can take lightly or for granted. That's what I meant when I said "sterile". I wasn't doubting the merits of Songahm, just the overly kid-catered culture. I'm sure the adult programs are great.



TrueJim said:


> If you go to Kim's Facebook page, you can see that they are wearing conventional sparring gear nowadays, so what you experienced may have just been a product of that era. Schools that do Kukkiwon/WTF-style can have wildly different color-belt systems, so you can't really use belt-colors to judge how Kukki-ish a school may be. I don't know if any schools still paddle nowadays; at our school punishment is usually doing pushups with clasped hands (they hurt!). There's definitely schools out there though that still stress discipline.
> 
> I have some TKD friends in the Raleigh area...I pinged them for some school recommendations, but let me ask...is there a specific region within Raleigh-Durham that would be more convenient for you?  (I went to grad school at NC State -- Go Wolfpack!)  Raleigh-Durham is a big area.
> 
> ...



Thanks a bunch for the input, yes RDU is a big, sprawling area. That has benefits, though, in that you're never that far of a drive from anything. That being said I am in Apex, which is a hop skip and jump from Cary. I may be relocating to Wake Forest next year, but that is not for certain yet.
Yes, I was thinking that I may join with my kid if my schedule permits.  That's partly why I was wondering if schools hold on to records. Like, I wouldn't expect to just jump back in as a red belt now 20+ years later, but it would be nice to have some sort of documentation showing that I put time in in the TKD world.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 22, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> When I was training I knew nothing about different styles, schools, associations, etc. It was just Tae Kwon Do to me. I had an excellent experience and would love to try to capture as close an experience for my kid as I can. So, I'm hoping that maybe if I can provide some of my anecdotal memories as well as the website for the school I went to, maybe you guys can point me in the right direction?
> 
> ...



It's a WTF/Kukkiwon school, meaning they register their black belts with the largest TKD organisation, and likely entering Olympic-style (i.e., no head punching) TKD tournaments. This is from their website:







In terms of discipline, hitting kids is not my style.  My viewpoint is that TKD for kids is for fun; it's not the military. To the extent the kids don't like it, eventually they will convince their parents to let them quit.  

I did see a muay thai class yesterday at the UFC gym I attend, where the instructor was gently hitting the shins of a student for conditioning, but that is a different rationale.  I hadn't seen that before at a gym, but I was impressed.

Good luck in finding the right school for you.


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## TrueJim (Dec 22, 2016)

My Raleigh peeps tell me that this school is da shizzle yo.

Raleigh Martial Arts | Master Chang's Martial Arts

It's on the north side of Raleigh though. Like the school I attend here in Virginia, Master Chang's is run by a former K-Tiger. 

(Did you ever wonder what happens to older K-Tigers? Apparently they come to the US and open schools here I guess!)


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## WaterGal (Dec 22, 2016)

I don't think many places, if any, these days will use corporal punishment on your kids.  Push-ups or kicking a kid out of class, sure, but hitting them with a shinai is very very old-school and not something I think you'll find anymore.

As far as contact sparring goes, while KKW/WTF TKD uses more equipment now than it used to (though I think your school was behind the times on that front), the equipment is meant to facilitate a high level of contact.  The styles that have kids spar with the kind of equipment that you used as kid, they usually do light-contact or no-contact sparring.  However, there are definitely KKW TKD schools that do eff-all in the way of sparring, so you can't generalize.


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## NikOnder (Dec 22, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> My Raleigh peeps tell me that this school is da shizzle yo.
> 
> Raleigh Martial Arts | Master Chang's Martial Arts
> 
> ...



Thanks! I'll look into it. Looks like he has similar credentials to my old instructor.


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## Buka (Dec 22, 2016)

Welcome to MT, Nik. 

We have a lot of knowledgeable TKD guys here.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 22, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> 
> Secondly, I know it's been at least 20 years since I practiced, but do schools generally keep records of students and rankings, etc? I don't presume that I could just call and request a transcript or whatever then walk into a random dojo and wave it around now, at 34 years of age, and be like "Hey, I'm a red belt first stripe, let's get that black belt!" ....but, I sure would love to have some kind of documentation from that period of my life and the effort and time I put into it, if nothing else at least for my own satisfaction and so I can show my son that I was a TKD kid, too, once upon a time.
> y.



Instead of showing him what was, how about showing him what is and starting with him as a white belt?


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## JR 137 (Dec 22, 2016)

I don't agree with the shinai as punishment either, but that's just me.  I'm not judging.

Forget styles, and look at schools.  As you've just witnessed, teacher's teaching the same curriculum can vary greatly.  What's far more important than the style is who's teaching, who you're (and/or your kid) are training alongside, and how they're training.

I'm not familiar with Raleigh nor do I know anything about the MA scene there.  But a quick Google search of Martial Arts Raleigh brought up 2 places that I would definitely visit -

Gracie Jujitsu.  Not sure if you're familiar with Brazilian Jujitsu or the Gracie name.  There's a good level of quality control.

Oyama Karate.  Oyama karate is a full contact system started by Shigeru Oyama, who was a legendary Kyokushin fighter and teacher.  I don't know the dojo nor teachers, but Oyama karate is tough, strict and very "traditional" in values.  Their website sucks.  But as with every other Oyama dojo, I'm quite sure they're not out to sell you anything.  They've typically got the mentality of "this is what we do and we're not going to cater to you.  If you want to join up, we'd love to have you.  If not, best of luck to you."  I don't advocate full contact/bare knuckle for kids, but I don't think they do that.  I'm pretty sure there's a progression in protective gear and level of contact, at least for the kids anyway.

Only way to find out if these schools or any other schools are worth your time is to visit.  You'll get a sense of the atmosphere pretty quickly.

The best advice I have is give your kid options.  Don't make joining a mandatory thing nor let it come across as punishment.  Don't tell him it's to instill discipline or the like.  It'll drive him away.  Let him know it's something you loved to do and want to do with him.  Let him love the MA for his own reasons, not yours.  Train with him.  He'll see a different side of you.


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## NikOnder (Dec 22, 2016)

JR 137 said:


> I don't agree with the shinai as punishment either, but that's just me.  I'm not judging.
> 
> Forget styles, and look at schools.  As you've just witnessed, teacher's teaching the same curriculum can vary greatly.  What's far more important than the style is who's teaching, who you're (and/or your kid) are training alongside, and how they're training.
> 
> ...



I should point out that the one or two times I saw my instructor paddle a student it was really just a light tap, not a full on beating. Obviously I don't want someone beating on my kid, but the point is about respect and discipline and being held accountable in front of your peers when you are out of line, as it affects everyone in the dojo. I'm wary of a place where the kids run the show rather than the instructors. 

The Oyama Karate definitely sounds interesting, I will look into it. I lean towards TKD as, obviously, it's what I have knowledge of. Also, this is strictly my opinion so please take it with a grain of salt, but I think of TKD as being a bit more of a "fully-formed" style than Karate, if that makes any sense.  Of course, I'm only saying that based on my limited knowledge so  I'm willing to admit I could be completely wrong.

I also agree with not forcing my son into it. Trust me he is totally ready to start, like, yesterday.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> I should point out that the one or two times I saw my instructor paddle a student it was really just a light tap, not a full on beating. Obviously I don't want someone beating on my kid, but the point is about respect and discipline and being held accountable in front of your peers when you are out of line, as it affects everyone in the dojo. I'm wary of a place where the kids run the show rather than the instructors.
> 
> The Oyama Karate definitely sounds interesting, I will look into it. I lean towards TKD as, obviously, it's what I have knowledge of. Also, this is strictly my opinion so please take it with a grain of salt, but I think of TKD as being a bit more of a "fully-formed" style than Karate, if that makes any sense.  Of course, I'm only saying that based on my limited knowledge so  I'm willing to admit I could be completely wrong.
> 
> I also agree with not forcing my son into it. Trust me he is totally ready to start, like, yesterday.


I'll give my experience from observing two schools that teach NGA (my experience) to kids. In one school, the instructor is very strict and stern. The kids are very well-mannered and organized there. He never paddles them, but uses exercise punishments others have referred to (push-ups, etc.). In the other, the instructor has given up (he used to give push-ups and laps, to no effect) and basically runs a recess session for the kids. Both sets of kids seem to enjoy their time, and one of them is actually learning something. Discipline comes from the instructor's attitude, and needs no corporal punishment.


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## Balrog (Dec 23, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> I apologize if I came off sounding rude, that was just the impression I got from the mall experience and looking at the materials I was given, it just seemed awfully....corporate...to me. Researching online later didn't help to change that first impression. Personally, I want a place that my kid would get his butt spanked for goofing off and not taking things seriously, which is the experience I had. Not an experience tailored to him that he can take lightly or for granted. That's what I meant when I said "sterile". I wasn't doubting the merits of Songahm, just the overly kid-catered culture. I'm sure the adult programs are great.


We don't spank in our schools.  However, he'll definitely get an upper body workout from doing extra push-ups.  They're not handed out as punishment per se, they are used to get the blood circulating up to the brain so that he can remember what the proper behavior in class is supposed to be.


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## TrueJim (Dec 23, 2016)

Balrog said:


> ...they are used to get the blood circulating up to the brain so that he can remember what the proper behavior in class is supposed to be...



We do clasped-hands pushups. Interlace the fingers and clasp the hands, as if about to pray. Get down into pushup position, your body's weight is on your clasped knuckles now. It hurts! It does exercise your grip though. The arm motion is a bit like a diamond push-up, since your two interlocked hands are a single point on the floor. I've never seen these done anywhere else. 

Like you, the joke is that this isn't punishment...we're just making our hands stronger. The threat (never executed) is that if you don't do them well on the mats _inside_, you'll be invited to do them on the _concrete_ outside! Ouch!


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> We do clasped-hands pushups. Interlace the fingers and clasp the hands, as if about to pray. Get down into pushup position, your body's weight is on your clasped knuckles now. It hurts! It does exercise your grip though. The arm motion is a bit like a diamond push-up, since your two interlocked hands are a single point on the floor. I've never seen these done anywhere else.
> 
> Like you, the joke is that this isn't punishment...we're just making our hands stronger. The threat (never executed) is that if you don't do them well on the mats _inside_, you'll be invited to do them on the _concrete_ outside! Ouch!


My hands hurt just thinking about those. I'm going to go have a hot cider to console them.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> I should point out that the one or two times I saw my instructor paddle a student it was really just a light tap, not a full on beating. Obviously I don't want someone beating on my kid, but the point is about respect and discipline and being held accountable in front of your peers when you are out of line, as it affects everyone in the dojo. I'm wary of a place where the kids run the show rather than the instructors.
> 
> The Oyama Karate definitely sounds interesting, I will look into it. I lean towards TKD as, obviously, it's what I have knowledge of. Also, this is strictly my opinion so please take it with a grain of salt, but I think of TKD as being a bit more of a "fully-formed" style than Karate, if that makes any sense.  Of course, I'm only saying that based on my limited knowledge so  I'm willing to admit I could be completely wrong.
> 
> I also agree with not forcing my son into it. Trust me he is totally ready to start, like, yesterday.



We're on the same page with the shinai thing; I thought you meant it as how you described it.  Again, no judgment from me.

Not sure what you mean by "more fully formed karate."  I'm not a TKD guy, so take what I say with a grain of salt too - TKD may be more organized in that the various associations are larger and there's more curriculum parity between the various schools, but TKD came from karate.  It's basically a Korean's version of karate, more specifically Shotokan karate.  That's in a nutshell and I'm sure TKD guys will pick that apart, but that's my short version.  Please don't take that as argumentative. 

At the end of the day, what matters most is finding the right fit for your son and you.  That boils down to teacher and classmates more than anything else IMO, karate vs TKD vs BJJ vs insert art name here.

Look around at your options.  You'll know which place is the right place when you find it.


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## JR 137 (Dec 23, 2016)

Balrog said:


> We don't spank in our schools.  However, he'll definitely get an upper body workout from doing extra push-ups.  They're not handed out as punishment per se, they are used to get the blood circulating up to the brain so that he can remember what the proper behavior in class is supposed to be.



Reminds me of my kindergarten phys ed class yesterday.  They came in way too tired up.  They were all over each other, and a few were literally (I hate to use that word, but I'm using it right) bouncing off the walls.

About 5 minutes into the fiasco, I said "we've got way too much energy to play the game I wanted to play, so we're going to play a game called Get the Energy Out."

Get the Energy Out consists of the students all standing on the end line of the basketball court.  I blow the whistle, and they sprint to the opposite end line.  That goes on until it doesn't sound like the playground at recess.  I usually go two more sprints after the last kid stops screaming.  That was the 3rd time I've done that one in my 6 years teaching.

No kid has ever looked at it as punishment.  At least that I know of.  This group is slower to catch on than the others.  They went 27 minutes of sprinting.


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## Balrog (Dec 24, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> We do clasped-hands pushups. Interlace the fingers and clasp the hands, as if about to pray. Get down into pushup position, your body's weight is on your clasped knuckles now. It hurts! It does exercise your grip though. The arm motion is a bit like a diamond push-up, since your two interlocked hands are a single point on the floor. I've never seen these done anywhere else.
> 
> Like you, the joke is that this isn't punishment...we're just making our hands stronger. The threat (never executed) is that if you don't do them well on the mats _inside_, you'll be invited to do them on the _concrete_ outside! Ouch!


I remember doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor.  Ouch is right!


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2016)

Balrog said:


> I remember doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor.  Ouch is right!


I've done a few of those. Nobody to blame for that but myself.


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## Archtkd (Dec 25, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> So, I have a five year old who is a very scrappy kid and has been getting into trouble for fighting at school. .


 What makes you think taekwondo or any martial art is what a 5-year-old kid should be doing as a serious thing?


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## Archtkd (Dec 25, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Master Kim was an exceptional leader and I was extremely fond of him...
> It may also just be a fact that back then it was a "different time", but I remember at least once or twice when Master Kim had to use the dreaded bamboo sword to paddle a kid in front of the class who just would not stop acting up and get his **** together, but we respected him to death and didn't fear him at all. It was definitely tough, but I feel like it was a genuine experience and I would rather impart a similarly genuine experience for my kid, rather than the sterile, suburbanite,  "after-school-activity" that the ATA franchise around here seems to offer.
> .


Sorry, but I would never consider any taekwondo or martial arts teacher who hits children with a bamboo stick to be an "exceptional leader." That's an example of a teacher (especially if it was being done in the 1990s) who should be kept as far as possible from children.  If a child acts up constantly in a dojang, there's an easy and reasonable remedy: kick out that child and let those who want to learn learn. Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?


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## NikOnder (Dec 25, 2016)

Archtkd said:


> What makes you think taekwondo or any martial art is what a 5-year-old kid should be doing as a serious thing?



I don't know, you tell me?








Archtkd said:


> Sorry, but I would never consider any taekwondo or martial arts teacher who hits children with a bamboo stick to be an "exceptional leader." That's an example of a teacher (especially if it was being done in the 1990s) who should be kept as far as possible from children.  If a child acts up constantly in a dojang, there's an easy and reasonable remedy: kick out that child and let those who want to learn learn. Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?



Go easy with the hyperbole. The point I was making is that if I'm going to start him in a school and a program, it might as well be one that he can stick with for life. Not something catered to suburban kids that will earn him a B.S. black belt by 3rd grade, which he will have to start all over again to earn in the competitive world at large as an adult (should he chose to pursue it). It may not be a serious thing when he starts it at 5, but it certainly could evolve into a serious thing by the time he's progressed and aged, so why not start with that possibility in mind?

Also, if you had read the thread:



NikOnder said:


> I should point out that the one or two times I saw my instructor paddle a student it was really just a light tap, not a full on beating. Obviously I don't want someone beating on my kid, but the point is about respect and discipline and being held accountable in front of your peers when you are out of line, as it affects everyone in the dojo. I'm wary of a place where the kids run the show rather than the instructors.


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## TrueJim (Dec 25, 2016)

Archtkd said:


> What makes you think taekwondo or any martial art is what a 5-year-old kid should be doing as a serious thing?



I interpreted the OP to mean that he wanted to teach the child discipline and respect...not that he wanted to make him a better fighter.


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## Tez3 (Dec 25, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> The point I was making is that if I'm going to start him in a school and a program, it might as well be one that he can stick with for life. Not something catered to suburban kids that will earn him a B.S. black belt by 3rd grade, which he will have to start all over again to earn in the competitive world at large as an adult (should he chose to pursue it). It may not be a serious thing when he starts it at 5, but it certainly could evolve into a serious thing by the time he's progressed and aged, so why not start with that possibility in mind?




I consider 5 to be too young to start martial arts, it's too young to be doing anything serious _which learning martial arts should be because you are learning to hurt, maim and possibly kill people, that shouldn't ever be just a 'fun thing' for kids._ I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts. I don't know what 3rd grade is, but children under 18 should only grade junior black belts and grade for an adult/senior one after 18. To be fair, many places use that system.
I have problems with people who say they want their children to learn discipline and respect by going to martial arts. Firstly, it's the *parent's* responsibility to teach this (amongst many other things) not martial arts instructors, our job is to teach martial arts.  Secondly, most sports and activities require discipline and respect if one is too do them properly, martial arts isn't unique, it has just seemed to acquire an almost mystical reputation for 'teaching discipline' but you can as easily acquire that riding a horse, you certainly learn respect lol.


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## Balrog (Dec 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I have problems with people who say they want their children to learn discipline and respect by going to martial arts. Firstly, it's the *parent's* responsibility to teach this (amongst many other things) not martial arts instructors, our job is to teach martial arts.


I agree in principle, but it is astonishing how many parents bring their kids in because they want the kids to learn discipline and respect, and the parents don't know how to teach it to them.  Since discipline and respect are cornerstones of m.a. training, I usually wind up getting the parents in class as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2016)

Balrog said:


> I agree in principle, but it is astonishing how many parents bring their kids in because they want the kids to learn discipline and respect, and the parents don't know how to teach it to them.  Since discipline and respect are cornerstones of m.a. training, I usually wind up getting the parents in class as well.


We (as a society) have an expectation of parents to deliver this learning, but many have (as you point out) no idea how to do so. So they seek someone who they think can help. I consider that a responsible choice (especially if they join the class and learn some from you, themselves).


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I consider 5 to be too young to start martial arts, it's too young to be doing anything serious _which learning martial arts should be because you are learning to hurt, maim and possibly kill people, that shouldn't ever be just a 'fun thing' for kids._ I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts. I don't know what 3rd grade is, but children under 18 should only grade junior black belts and grade for an adult/senior one after 18. To be fair, many places use that system.
> I have problems with people who say they want their children to learn discipline and respect by going to martial arts. Firstly, it's the *parent's* responsibility to teach this (amongst many other things) not martial arts instructors, our job is to teach martial arts.  Secondly, most sports and activities require discipline and respect if one is too do them properly, martial arts isn't unique, it has just seemed to acquire an almost mystical reputation for 'teaching discipline' but you can as easily acquire that riding a horse, you certainly learn respect lol.


I'm not a fan of kids that young taking MA, either. However, I've seen classes tailored to those ages, and none of them were actually teaching how to hurt, maim, and possibly kill, beyond the ability of a 5-year-old to hit. Most are focused on using MA movements to improve physical ability (like any sport) and helping develop patience, discipline, etc.


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## TrueJim (Dec 26, 2016)

I think most kids' sports (soccer, flag football, tee-ball, wrestling, gymnastics, martial arts, etc.) teach many good things in varying degrees: good sportsmanship, gross motor skills, balance, coordination, focus, discipline, respect, courtesy, etc. In any sport, if you're lucky enough to find a good coach, the coach is going to reinforce the lessons of courtesy, respect, focus, discipline, etc.

But of all kids sports, martial arts has some distinct advantages:

Most kids' sports are _seasonal_. Your kid gets that coach and those teammates for just 10 short weeks, then it's off to a different sport with different coaches and different teammates. Martial arts are year-round and so the experience has much better continuity...and continuity is important for these kinds of lessons.
Most kids' coaches are part-time volunteers. Martial arts has the advantage that the instructors generally do this for a living, so they tend to be better at it.
While all good coaches try to reinforce respect, discipline, etc., martial arts instructors usually make it a special point to do so.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> I think most kids' sports (soccer, flag football, tee-ball, wrestling, gymnastics, martial arts, etc.) teach many good things in varying degrees: good sportsmanship, gross motor skills, balance, coordination, focus, discipline, respect, courtesy, etc. In any sport, if you're lucky enough to find a good coach, the coach is going to reinforce the lessons of courtesy, respect, focus, discipline, etc.
> 
> But of all kids sports, martial arts has some distinct advantages:
> 
> ...


I agree with this. The closest comparisons I could come up with would be dance classes and gymnastics, both of which can be year-round and involve people for whom teaching is at least an avocation, if not their actual business. And both will help develop discipline and respect if taught in ways that require those things of the student. As you said, many MA instructors take special care to teach these concepts, so there's an advantage there (at least with those who are good at it).


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of kids that young taking MA, either. However, I've seen classes tailored to those ages, and none of them were actually teaching how to hurt, maim, and possibly kill, beyond the ability of a 5-year-old to hit. Most are focused on using MA movements to improve physical ability (like any sport) and helping develop patience, discipline, etc.



then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.



TrueJim said:


> I think most kids' sports (soccer, flag football, tee-ball, wrestling, gymnastics, martial arts, etc.) teach many good things in varying degrees: good sportsmanship, gross motor skills, balance, coordination, focus, discipline, respect, courtesy, etc. In any sport, if you're lucky enough to find a good coach, the coach is going to reinforce the lessons of courtesy, respect, focus, discipline, etc.
> 
> But of all kids sports, martial arts has some distinct advantages:
> 
> ...



Here things are somewhat different, most martial arts coaches don't do it full time, they do it for love, most just cover costs not a wage. Some sports are seasonal but many actually train year round, children here don't tend to move from sport to sport in the way you describe. Our national sporting organisations ie Sport England/Scotland/Wales push strongly  respect and discipline in all sports along with anti bullying and anti racist campaigns.
Respect in sport is actually part of the Physical Education GCSE ( national exams taken by secondary school children) http://www.bbc.co.uk/education/clips/zgy8q6f


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.


That's a distinction I struggle with, too. I've just come to accept that "martial arts" is a term most folks use to include related activities that aren't really designed to teach combat effectiveness.



> Here things are somewhat different, most martial arts coaches don't do it full time, they do it for love, most just cover costs not a wage. Some sports are seasonal but many actually train year round, children here don't tend to move from sport to sport in the way you describe. Our national sporting organisations ie Sport England/Scotland/Wales push strongly  respect and discipline in all sports along with anti bullying and anti racist campaigns.
> Respect in sport is actually part of the Physical Education GCSE ( national exams taken by secondary school children) BBC Bitesize - GCSE Physical Education - Respecting yourself and others in sport


I'd like to see more sports organizations push respect as a part of what they do. I know a lot of folks who played sports in high school got similar benefits, where they had coaches who demanded discipline and expected respect where earned.

I'm one of those part-time folks like you talk about. But even folks like me differ from what many kids run into in sports here. Many times the coaches in kids' sporting leagues are volunteers. They may not even know a lot about the sport (I've had to explain some of the rules of soccer to coaches), and certainly aren't doing it enough to build in a purposeful focus on respect, nor to ensure kids are developing proper discipline. At least in the MA, the instructors tend to be people who are doing that for many years, so they have the opportunity to hone those parts of the curriculum. The same, of course, can be said of sports coaches with similar longevity.


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Many times the coaches in kids' sporting leagues are volunteers. They may not even know a lot about the sport (I've had to explain some of the rules of soccer to coaches), and certainly aren't doing it enough to build in a purposeful focus on respect, nor to ensure kids are developing proper discipline. At least in the MA, the instructors tend to be people who are doing that for many years, so they have the opportunity to hone those parts of the curriculum. The same, of course, can be said of sports coaches with similar longevity.



Sports coaches here have to be qualified to at least basic level one sports coach and pass police vetting, it doesn't matter whether they are volunteers or professionals. Parents also expect coaches to be qualified, all sports now require coaching qualifications and many offer courses. Minimum Standards for Active Coaches of Children and Young People - Additional Guidance Tool | sports coach UK
This wasn't always the case and the chickens are coming home to roost as it were. We now have 17 police forces currently investigating hundreds of paedophile abuse cases perpetrated by football ( soccer) coaches many years ago. It's horrendous. Hundreds report football child abuse to police - BBC News


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 26, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Sports coaches here have to be qualified to at least basic level one sports coach and pass police vetting, it doesn't matter whether they are volunteers or professionals. Parents also expect coaches to be qualified, all sports now require coaching qualifications and many offer courses. Minimum Standards for Active Coaches of Children and Young People - Additional Guidance Tool | sports coach UK
> This wasn't always the case and the chickens are coming home to roost as it were. We now have 17 police forces currently investigating hundreds of paedophile abuse cases perpetrated by football ( soccer) coaches many years ago. It's horrendous. Hundreds report football child abuse to police - BBC News


Maybe not a bad standard. At present, not the practice in the US.


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe not a bad standard. At present, not the practice in the US.



There is a code of ethics as well.... 'The Code of Ethics and Conduct for Sports Coaches has been developed by the National Foundation for the Code of Ethics which was published by the British Institute of Sports Coaches (BISC).' This comes from the EU direction https://www.coe.int/t/dg4/epas/resources/texts/Rec(92)14rev_en.pdf.
There is also EU regulations of child safety which covers sports. http://www.childsafetyeurope.org/publications/info/child-safety-regulations-standards.pdf

Many will probably think we have a lot of law covering children's sports etc but as the child abuse investigations show, you really need to keep children safe.


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## TrueJim (Dec 26, 2016)

In the US, if you're going to coach in youth leagues, you usually have to register with the league so that they can do a basic criminal background check...again, for the child safety aspect. 

There's no check to make sure that you can coach _well_ though. Some leagues do offer some minimal coaching instruction. 

I think I learned a lot about coaching by being an instructor at our tkd school. Instructing in tkd exposed me to a lot of good physical-training drills that translate well to other sports, and taught me a lot about how to motivate kids (including difficult kids).

Re: definition of martial art - my personal opinion is that the best definition is that martial arts are activities that were _historically_ used for combat, even if they're not used for combat nowadays.


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> Re: definition of martial art - my personal opinion is that the best definition is that martial arts are activities that were _historically_ used for combat, even if they're not used for combat nowadays.



I'd add on the end of that....... _'and bear some resemblance to combat at least_.'


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## Archtkd (Dec 26, 2016)

Go easy with the hyperbole. The point I was making is that if I'm going to start him in a school and a program said:


> Hyperbole? Those are 7 year-old kids and up in that photo you've shown in that photo.
> 
> 
> NikOnder said:
> ...


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## Archtkd (Dec 26, 2016)

TrueJim said:


> I interpreted the OP to mean that he wanted to teach the child discipline and respect...not that he wanted to make him a better fighter.


Who talked about fighting? Learning respect and getting discipline requires some things a 5 year old might not possess.


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## Archtkd (Dec 27, 2016)

How is asking whether a 5-year-old might be too young for taekwondo classes hyperbole? How is questioning the beating of child by a taekwondo teacher hyperbole? Why would you accept such beating to be an example of how to teach something to a child, especially if it's not something the child should take seriously? How does posting the picture of kids who are seven years and up answer those simple questions about a five year old?  Hyperbole, according to the Oxford English dictionary means, "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." How does my post conform to that definition?


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan of kids that young taking MA, either. However, I've seen classes tailored to those ages, and none of them were actually teaching how to hurt, maim, and possibly kill, beyond the ability of a 5-year-old to hit. Most are focused on using MA movements to improve physical ability (like any sport) and helping develop patience, discipline, etc.





Tez3 said:


> then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.



Sure it may be watered down TKD for kids or whatever, but I still fail to see your point. By that logic, basically you're saying I should enroll my kid in tap-dancing or Tee Ball or whatever age appropriate activity because TKD would be pointless at this age?  In the same sentence of your argument against a 5 year old taking MA classes, you go on to say : "I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts." ...what?

I never said I was against programs that cater to suburban families just looking for an after-school activity for their kids, like the ATA, which will take kids as young as 3. I thought I made it VERY clear that the point is that if I'm going to put my kid into a school and a program I might as well do my damn homework and make sure it's something that he can carry with him for life so he's not doing the same thing I am now in 30 years.
The two questions I asked in the OP were: 1.) Can anyone confirm the association I studied in (To educate my decision on a school for him and so I will know should I want to join with my kid) and 2.) Do they keep records for previous students (so I will know should I want to join with my kid). That was it....

As far as a 5 year old taking MA classes, sure he may do the damn junior belt program and kid black belts etc etc yadda yadda, the point is what happens should he want to pursue it into adulthood? Why the hell not make sure wherever he starts training at 5 wouldn't be a place he can still fit in and train at 55? 
Are there a lot of Tee Ball or Kick Ball for adult clubs and programs around?  Or an Olympic Red Rover or hop-scotch program that I'm not aware of?


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

Archtkd said:


> How is asking whether a 5-year-old might be too young for taekwondo classes hyperbole? How is questioning the beating of child by a taekwondo teacher hyperbole? Why would you accept such beating to be an example of how to teach something to a child, especially if it's not something the child should take seriously? How does posting the picture of kids who are seven years and up answer those simple questions about a five year old?  Hyperbole, according to the Oxford English dictionary means, "exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally." How does my post conform to that definition?



Hyperbole is repeatedly insisting a child was "beaten" and asking loaded questions like "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" when I very clearly stated WAY before your input that the one or two times a kid was reprimanded they got barely a tap. I even included a quote of myself saying that just to make sure you saw it, but that quote was from page one. I understand that in a barely 2 page thread, it must be such a pain in the butt to read the whole thing from the beginning.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Sure it may be watered down TKD for kids or whatever, but I still fail to see your point. By that logic, basically you're saying I should enroll my kid in tap-dancing or Tee Ball or whatever age appropriate activity because TKD would be pointless at this age?



I'm not sure why you are being so aggressive. I said in my opinion martial arts shouldn't be taught too young, five is too young so yes something age appropriate would be, well, appropriate. Tap dancing is also not appropriate for a five year old, no idea what 'Tap Ball' is.



NikOnder said:


> I'd also take issue with the description of 'suburban kids' which somehow implies they are less worthy of being taught martial arts." ...what?


Your sentence comes across as saying you think your kid is better than suburban kids which has absolutely no meaning whatsoever, why don't you like subanban kids?



NikOnder said:


> I never said I was against programs that cater to suburban families just looking for an after-school activity for their kids, like the ATA, which will take kids as young as



In the UK we don't have martial arts clubs/schools running after school clubs. It wouldn't be allowed as it wouldn't meet OFSTED standards.



NikOnder said:


> The two questions I asked in the OP were: 1.) Can anyone confirm the association I studied in (To educate my decision on a school for him and so I will know should I want to join with my kid) and 2.) Do they keep records for previous students (so I will know should I want to join with my kid). That was it....



This is a discussion board, you can ask questions of course but every time you will also get discussion.



NikOnder said:


> As far as a 5 year old taking MA classes, sure he may do the damn junior belt program and kid black belts etc etc yadda yadda, the point is what happens should he want to pursue it into adulthood? Why the hell not make sure wherever he starts training at 5 wouldn't be a place he can still fit in and train at 55?



Do you always curse when you disagree with someone? 
In mine and many others opinions five is too young to start martial arts, I will take them when they are ten, others won't take them under 18. why not introduce your child to a variety of sports and interests many of which you can do together and see which he likes best, which he has an aptitude for. Make him well rounded rather than plan out his martial arts life from 5-55, makes the instructors lives a lot better that's for sure, never mind your sons. 






NikOnder said:


> Are there a lot of Tee Ball or Kick Ball for adult clubs and programs around? Or an Olympic Red Rover or hop-scotch program that I'm not aware of?




No idea what Tee Ball or Kick Ball is nor Olympic Red Rover.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Hyperbole is repeatedly insisting a child was "beaten" and asking loaded questions like "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" when I very clearly stated WAY before your input that the one or two times a kid was reprimanded they got barely a tap. I even included a quote of myself saying that just to make sure you saw it, but that quote was from page one. I understand that in a barely 2 page thread, it must be such a pain in the butt to read the whole thing from the beginning.



'Barely a tap', mmm no child should be touched by an adult who is not the parent. To allow anyone to 'tap' your child is the thin edge of the wedge, when does the tap become a bit harder because the individual has lost their patience? What if the tap across the backside is done for sexual gratification ( see my posts about coaches being investigated from a time when smacking was seen as being fine, we now know it's not).

As I said before, this is a discussion board, you are going to get many opinions, many viewpoints because when you start a thread you start a discussion, there's no need for you to be sarcastic to Arch because you don't like what he said.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 27, 2016)

Balrog said:


> I remember doing knuckle pushups on a wooden floor. Ouch is right!


It's the jumping and twisting knuckle pushups on the wooden floor that give the most ouch.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> learning martial arts should be because you are learning to hurt, maim and possibly kill people,


Exactly how could someone teach a 5 year old to hurt, maim and possibly kill people" That would have to be some 5 year old.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Exactly how could someone teach a 5 year old to hurt, maim and possibly kill people" That would have to be some 5 year old.



Sadly we see that in some countries children are taught to kill and maim people, child soldiers are something no one wants.
Martial arts has been turned by some into a 'fun' activity that bears no relation to what it should be. I very much believe that you should enjoy practising martial arts but that it's not an activity for young children. Even if you go through the motions of kicking and punching with a young child you are still teaching someone with no concept of life's responsibilities yet ( *and nor should they*!)  how to hurt someone. Teaching respect and discipline is a parent's job, coaches can reinforce that teaching of course but coaches from any activity can do that as well as a number of other organisations such as Scouting, Guiding etc all should be age appropriate. Martial arts, taught properly is not for 5 year olds and martial arts should always be taught properly.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> No idea what Tee Ball or Kick Ball is nor Olympic Red Rover.


Tee Ball is like baseball but with no pitcher. Instead the ball is put on a stick in front of the batter. Kick Ball is like Baseball but with a soccer type ball that is kicked around to the bases on the ground. Red Rover is a children's game that involves two teams lined up like a chain on opposite sides of a field and one player at a time tries to break through the opposite line.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> baseball



Ah rounders then. 

Red Rover sounds fun and has the potential to be lovely and violent!   If you want a character building game, try British Bulldog! Urban Dictionary: british bulldog  We used to play it at school, greatest fun ever. Only the name is banned btw, the game isn't...well that's how the Brits look at it, a rose by any other name you know.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 27, 2016)

Folks, some of these posts come across as a little heated. Let's all take it down a notch, please. 
Thank you.


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Folks, some of these posts come across as a little heated. Let's all take it down a notch, please.
> Thank you.



Agreed...... 
it is a bit mind numbing when I'm having to read posts like "'Barely a tap', mmm no child should be touched by an adult who is not the parent. To allow anyone to 'tap' your child is the thin edge of the wedge, when does the tap become a bit harder because the individual has lost their patience? What if the tap across the backside is done for sexual gratification"

and "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" in a thread essentially asking for input on starting a child in classes, though.


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## RTKDCMB (Dec 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> British Bulldog! Urban Dictionary: british bulldog We used to play it at school, greatest fun ever.


Sounds a bit like 'Ship to Shore' or 'What's the time Mr Wolf'.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Agreed......
> it is a bit mind numbing when I'm having to read posts like "'Barely a tap', mmm no child should be touched by an adult who is not the parent. To allow anyone to 'tap' your child is the thin edge of the wedge, when does the tap become a bit harder because the individual has lost their patience? What if the tap across the backside is done for sexual gratification"
> 
> and "Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?" in a thread essentially asking for input on starting a child in classes, though.



Oh dear, oh dear. I think you are being far too sensitive, no one here is being heated apart from you. I have been in martial arts a very, very long time, being somewhat old and I don't believe in even 'tapping' a child, I didn't smack my children and would never touch another's. If it's mind numbing to you then don't read it but I would suggest you haven't had to deal with other people's children much. We have a duty of care to our students, especially to children to ensure their safety, if you think this is trivial then I'm afraid we disagree majorly.
It's quite some going when you have been here less than a week, disrespect long time posters yet talk about learning about respect as being important, very amusing. Please don't think we are upset, we're not, we're just being martial arts instructors who care about our students.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

RTKDCMB said:


> Sounds a bit like 'Ship to Shore' or 'What's the time Mr Wolf'.



I know what's the time Mr. Wolf but that's a 'soft' game lol. BB is like MMA without rules, it's not so bad played with boys  but when girls play........ nasty! roflmao.


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear, oh dear. I think you are being far too sensitive, no one here is being heated apart from you. I have been in martial arts a very, very long time, being somewhat old and I don't believe in even 'tapping' a child, I didn't smack my children and would never touch another's. If it's mind numbing to you then don't read it but I would suggest you haven't had to deal with other people's children much. We have a duty of care to our students, especially to children to ensure their safety, if you think this is trivial then I'm afraid we disagree majorly.
> It's quite some going when you have been here less than a week, disrespect long time posters yet talk about learning about respect as being important, very amusing. Please don't think we are upset, we're not, we're just being martial arts instructors who care about our students.



That's all valid, I became bothered because the thread was going fine when out of nowhere someone posts loaded and obviously argumentative stuff: 


Archtkd said:


> What makes you think taekwondo or any martial art is what a 5-year-old kid should be doing as a serious thing?





Archtkd said:


> Sorry, but I would never consider any taekwondo or martial arts teacher who hits children with a bamboo stick to be an "exceptional leader." That's an example of a teacher (especially if it was being done in the 1990s) who should be kept as far as possible from children.  If a child acts up constantly in a dojang, there's an easy and reasonable remedy: kick out that child and let those who want to learn learn. Would you condone caning of children in kindergarten?



I take it personally because it's my kid and my character as a parent that was subtly being provoked and, frankly, no one asked for anyone's self righteous opinion. We were having a perfectly fine conversation here before hand. 
Your posts also seemed overblown and devoid of logic, basically parroting talking points the other guy made for the sake of stirring up argument. That's why I had a problem with your first couple posts. 
Anyway, I agree getting into tit for tat's on message boards is stupid and basically human behavior at it's lowest common denominator, so if it makes everyone happy just pretend I said my kid is 7 and never mentioned the bamboo paddle. I'll be happy to play along.


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## Archtkd (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> That's all valid, I became bothered because the thread was going fine when out of nowhere someone posts loaded and obviously argumentative stuff:
> I take it personally because it's my kid and my character as a parent that was subtly being provoked and, frankly, no one asked for anyone's self righteous opinion..



Welcome to the taekwondo forum. You post here, expect vigorous discussion from all and sundry and don't take it personally. Nobody has questioned your character as a parent. The things that caught my attention from your op and triggered my response were:
1. Your subtle disparagement of the ATA franchise in your area.
2. Your line stating: "Master Kim had to use the dreaded bamboo sword to paddle a kid in front of the class who just would not stop acting up and get his ****."
3. Your interest in finding a taekwondo school for your "very scrappy" 5-year-old son who "has been getting into trouble for fighting at school."
4. Your desire to find records of  taekwondo training you did 20 years ago, but training for which you can't recall key elements. With those issues in mind I'll reply to the post another way:

A. Not all ATA schools are bad. In fact many of them have instructors who are very good with very young children.
B. Taekwondo might not be the best thing for your son right now. Waiting one and a half to two years from now can make a very big difference in how he learns and retains taekwondo.
C. Did Grandmaster Kim issue you with Geup certficates. Most taekwondo schools issue geup certificates, but few keep long term records. I do. Why don't you call Grandmaster Kim? If you were a good or very bad student he might remember you.
D. Ideally if you want to train with your son, start from scratch and learn with him. It's what you know now that counts. Belts and certificates for taekwondo you don't know or remember mean nothing.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> I take it personally because it's my kid and my character as a parent that was subtly being provoked and, frankly, no one asked for anyone's self righteous opinion. We were having a perfectly fine conversation here before hand.
> Your posts also seemed overblown and devoid of logic, basically parroting talking points the other guy made for the sake of stirring up argument. That's why I had a problem with your first couple posts.
> Anyway, I agree getting into tit for tat's on message boards is stupid and basically human behavior at it's lowest common denominator, so if it makes everyone happy just pretend I said my kid is 7 and never mentioned the bamboo paddle. I'll be happy to play along.



Your character as a parent was not being questioned. You have to understand those of us who take younger students get many parents coming in asking for 'discipline and respect' to be taught to their children, along with being asked if our hands are registered with the police as deadly weapons it's one of those questions that is facepalm worthy. We really do despair sometimes at parents.
The other thing we do here apart from discuss things is NOT make personal attacks on people. You agreed that when you signed up, if you don't like posts put the poster on ignore.
The other thing you have to understand is that most of us are instructors, are experienced and have a deep knowledge of martial arts, even if you don't like what they are saying they are saying it from experience. Arch's posts aren't 'self righteous' they come from knowledge as an instructor and someone who actually knows what he's talking about. the advice he gives is worth listening to and heeding. I know nothing of ATA TKD, we don't have it here but again I'd listen to people who do know.


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

Thanks. I admit perhaps I reacted to your posts with the assumption of ill intention, I will take ownership of that. On message boards it's not only hard to understand the tone of something that is being said, but there can also be an assumption that it is being said in an argumentative way (ever hang out on bullshido.net?). Put in the way done so above, I agree that those are valid points. I don't remember anything about Geup certificates specifically. I know we did get certificates, but there's no telling where they are or if I even still have them. I do agree calling might be a good idea, but given some of the other points made previously it may just not even be worth it. 
I have apologized for sounding hard on the ATA. Like I said before, my only real problem with them is if he decides to pursue TKD more seriously when he gets older, or if I decide to join classes as well. If so, i'd rather not have to start over in a new association in order to have broader access to the competitive world. I hope that makes sense.  
Also, my understanding is their programs can be significantly more costly (hence, my stating that is often geared towards suburban families, i.e. families with extra cash to burn). 

If I sound a bit obsessive over little details, don't worry I realize that I do. I'll admit that I can be downright obsessive when it comes to stuff for my kids. I just want to be as educated as possible to give them the best opportunities and experience.


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Thanks. I admit perhaps I reacted to your posts with the assumption of ill intention, I will take ownership of that. On message boards it's not only hard to understand the tone of something that is being said, but there can also be an assumption that it is being said in an argumentative way (ever hang out on bullshido.net?). Put in the way done so above, I agree that those are valid points. I don't remember anything about Geup certificates specifically. I know we did get certificates, but there's no telling where they are or if I even still have them. I do agree calling might be a good idea, but given some of the other points made previously it may just not even be worth it.
> I have apologized for sounding hard on the ATA. Like I said before, my only real problem with them is if he decides to pursue TKD more seriously when he gets older, or if I decide to join classes as well. If so, i'd rather not have to start over in a new association in order to have broader access to the competitive world. I hope that makes sense.
> Also, my understanding is their programs can be significantly more costly (hence, my stating that is often geared towards suburban families, i.e. families with extra cash to burn).
> 
> If I sound a bit obsessive over little details, don't worry I realize that I do. I'll admit that I can be downright obsessive when it comes to stuff for my kids. I just want to be as educated as possible to give them the best opportunities and experience.




Ah, no worries. You don't have to assume anything with my posts lol, I speak as I find...bluntly, something to do with living in Yorkshire I believe. This is an international site so your comments about suburban children goes over non American heads and comes out meaning something you obviously did not intend. I suppose we'd say middle class families here ( though in the UK what class you are has nothing to do with money but 'breeding' lol).

Wanting the best for your children is never a bad thing! I do and my eldest is 40 now! I would ask though if you are sure you want 'competitive' martial arts for your son? Many practise without ever competing. Competing isn't compulsory. Why not find a good fit for him, in a place he will learn regardless of the style and worry about competitions later. I would still say he's a little young for a stand up style but would suggest Judo/BJJ as a good starters if your son is a bit boisterous.  When he's older take him to a karate/TKD school/club as well. Of course he may not like any of it or get fed up of it, young children do, it's normal. I do Guiding (it's Girl Scouts in the US) as well as martial arts and  in both we tell parents never to buy uniforms etc for the first few weeks just to be sure their children like it before spending money.


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> .
> Wanting the best for your children is never a bad thing! I do and my eldest is 40 now! I would ask though if you are sure you want 'competitive' martial arts for your son? Many practise without ever competing. Competing isn't compulsory. Why not find a good fit for him, in a place he will learn regardless of the style and worry about competitions later. I would still say he's a little young for a stand up style but would suggest Judo/BJJ as a good starters if your son is a bit boisterous.  When he's older take him to a karate/TKD school/club as well. Of course he may not like any of it or get fed up of it, young children do, it's normal. I do Guiding (it's Girl Scouts in the US) as well as martial arts and  in both we tell parents never to buy uniforms etc for the first few weeks just to be sure their children like it before spending money.



Well, I just want to keep it open ended. He may never pursue it that far, I just want to know I've laid the best foundation for him  in the event that he should decide to down the road. I guess that's why I may seem nit-picky right now. Obviously, he's very young and that kind of thing would be many years from now. 

Also, if it seems like I have a sense of urgency on the issue, that's because he starts kindergarten (not sure if you call it the same thing over there, basically first year in public school) coming up in August. We more or less had to pull him out of the preschool program he was in out of concern that he would eventually hurt one of the other kids. I was hoping getting him into a Martial Art might help him find a positive outlet and way to channel that energy that he has, with any luck before we unleash him on the public school system!


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## Tez3 (Dec 27, 2016)

NikOnder said:


> Also, if it seems like I have a sense of urgency on the issue, that's because he starts kindergarten (not sure if you call it the same thing over there, basically first year in public school) coming up in August.



Kindergarten here is preschool, he would be going into primary school. I would suggest that Judo would be really good for him, it's tough and exhausting with little standing around, it's very physical and good fun. It does require concentration of course but I think honestly it will help. This is one of UK's best Judoka and his story. Ashley McKenzie: how a childhood fight over a Pokemon card led to Commonwealth Games gold


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## NikOnder (Dec 27, 2016)

My dad did Judo in his military days, that may be something to look into. Thanks!


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## WaterGal (Dec 29, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> then it's not really martial arts in my opinion it's Tai Bo or Boxercise.



Where I live, there's a popular soccer program for preschoolers.  The kids don't actually play games of soccer, because they're 4 and can't understand the game yet.  Instead, they use simple play and activities to develop basic skills like dribbling, kicking, passing the ball, teamwork, etc.  Then, when the kids are a little older, it's easier for them to pick up the game, because they already have those foundational skills and a basic understand of some of the elements of the sport.

I think martial arts classes for very young kids should be like this.  The goal isn't to teach little Johnny how to break someone's arm - but it's also not to just be an exercise class where the kid runs around for an hour while Mom buys the groceries.  It should give kids a solid foundation for future martial arts study, by teaching basic techniques, developing necessary motor skills, acclimating them to the dojang, etc.


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## Tez3 (Dec 30, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> Where I live, there's a popular soccer program for preschoolers.  The kids don't actually play games of soccer, because they're 4 and can't understand the game yet.  Instead, they use simple play and activities to develop basic skills like dribbling, kicking, passing the ball, teamwork, etc.  Then, when the kids are a little older, it's easier for them to pick up the game, because they already have those foundational skills and a basic understand of some of the elements of the sport.
> 
> I think martial arts classes for very young kids should be like this.  The goal isn't to teach little Johnny how to break someone's arm - but it's also not to just be an exercise class where the kid runs around for an hour while Mom buys the groceries.  It should give kids a solid foundation for future martial arts study, by teaching basic techniques, developing necessary motor skills, acclimating them to the dojang, etc.



Kids here play football when out playing with other kids, no need for lessons they pick it up from older kids, they also play in the school playground. In fact it's played in a lot of places, 'kickabouts'  are common everywhere. People do it all the time.

I still don't think children under 10 should be taught martial arts, I've seen classes where they try and I've seen it doesn't really work. I've seen kids in playgrounds 'kiai-ing' and hitting out at others 'playing' martial arts because they are too young to understand what they learn in martial arts class shouldn't be used outside in that way. Learning the basic movements without having the understanding of when to use them is not something I want to be responsible for teaching.


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## Balrog (Jan 5, 2017)

NikOnder said:


> I have apologized for sounding hard on the ATA. Like I said before, my only real problem with them is if he decides to pursue TKD more seriously when he gets older, or if I decide to join classes as well. If so, i'd rather not have to start over in a new association in order to have broader access to the competitive world. I hope that makes sense.
> Also, my understanding is their programs can be significantly more costly (hence, my stating that is often geared towards suburban families, i.e. families with extra cash to burn).


You want competition, ATA's got competition.  You can have anything from in-school tournaments up to World Championships.  Some folks like to do one or two tournaments a year.  Some folks go to every tournament they possibly can.  It totally depends on how much you want to put into it.

And at the risk of sounding a little egotistical, if we cost more, it's because we are worth it.  Instructors in the ATA continue training and learning new things constantly.  That ain't cheap.  And we have to recertify as instructors every three years.  I charge as much for a one hour private lesson as I used to charge when I was a database administrator on a contract job.  We're nowhere near as expensive as lawyers, though.


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## Tez3 (Jan 6, 2017)

Balrog said:


> And at the risk of sounding a little egotistical, if we cost more,



It's a constant thing in martial arts about how much classes/lessons should cost. Many feel even charging to impart knowledge is wrong and decry those instructors who charge, however even those who run clubs not schools and do it for love still have utility bills and rent etc to pay for. The other thing of course is that people very often don't value something that is low priced, it's thought that it can't be that good!
When my daughter was much younger ( about 20 years ago), competing in eventing and show jumping we'd pay for lessons which cost far more then than martial arts classes do now, private lessons with British team coaches would cost £30 a half hour AND they'd be shared with one other. I hate to think how much now. However it was very much worth it. People seem happy to pay for good instruction in all other sports and activities yet martial arts are still supposed to impart it's training for next to nothing to be  deemed worth anything. Odd!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jan 6, 2017)

Yes, when parents tell me how much piano lessons are, I think martial arts can be quite inexpensive in comparison.


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## Balrog (Jan 6, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> It's a constant thing in martial arts about how much classes/lessons should cost. Many feel even charging to impart knowledge is wrong and decry those instructors who charge, however even those who run clubs not schools and do it for love still have utility bills and rent etc to pay for.


They have watched too many chop-socky movies, I think.  The days of a teacher sitting on a rock and imparting wisdom and knowledge in exchange for a bowl of rice are long over, if they ever existed at all.


> The other thing of course is that people very often don't value something that is low priced, it's thought that it can't be that good!
> When my daughter was much younger ( about 20 years ago), competing in eventing and show jumping we'd pay for lessons which cost far more then than martial arts classes do now, private lessons with British team coaches would cost £30 a half hour AND they'd be shared with one other. I hate to think how much now. However it was very much worth it. People seem happy to pay for good instruction in all other sports and activities yet martial arts are still supposed to impart it's training for next to nothing to be  deemed worth anything. Odd!


Agreed.  I just raised my rates on the first of the year (my rent went up).  And it's a good thing, in a way.  I'll get people who say they can't afford it and I'll work with them to lower the monthly rate by stretching the payments out longer.  Guess who are the first folks to default on their agreements!  We've decided no more Mr. Nice Guy.  If you can't afford $177/mo for six months, then you are not a good credit risk (so to speak) for my school.


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