# 10th degree black belts



## the prodigy (May 10, 2009)

how many would you say there are in the U.S.?


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## ArmorOfGod (May 10, 2009)

Legitimate ones, self-promoted ones, or ones promoted through internet organizations?
You can go on eBay or just google "black belt promotion" and be a 10th degree right now for about $30.

AoG


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## searcher (May 10, 2009)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Legitimate ones, self-promoted ones, or ones promoted through internet organizations?
> You can go on eBay or just google "black belt promotion" and be a 10th degree right now for about $30.
> 
> AoG


 

You don't even have to spend that much.    I have seen people wearing 10th Dan rank with white belt skills.     All they had to do was buy a BB-$5.00 and some red electrical tape-$2.75.     They get to be a 10th Dan for under $10.00.


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## just2kicku (May 10, 2009)

searcher said:


> You don't even have to spend that much. I have seen people wearing 10th Dan rank with white belt skills. All they had to do was buy a BB-$5.00 and some red electrical tape-$2.75. They get to be a 10th Dan for under $10.00.


 
$5.00 for the belt and I can order the red phasing tape from work. Oh yeah, just saved $2.75....


Really, I have met 2. Sijo Emperado and Frank Ordenez, and I wouldn't have questioned either one.


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## arnisador (May 10, 2009)

Too many. Enough that when I meet one the first thought in my head is no longer "Wow, this must be someone worthy of great respect."


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## ArmorOfGod (May 10, 2009)

I guess the anwser that the original poster is looking for would be thousands upon thousands.
As for ones who I would consider really legit 10th dans, maybe hundreds.  Still, that is all guessing, based on personal bias and experience.

AoG


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## seasoned (May 10, 2009)

Don't count anyone under 50 years old. That should cut the number down a bit.


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## still learning (May 10, 2009)

Hello, Today 10th degrees can be worn by anyone....today it is use as a title...like President of a corporations. , Chairman of the board..many Martial arts are a business first.

10th degrees do not always mean about their skills.....means more or less the guy in charge or owner (s') the leader of the martial art organzations.

A given title that loss lots of meaning today...just look around

Professorsship is the same today...everywhere,..hey DOC!

Ever see a 10th degree carpenter? ...or electrican? ...or auto mechanic?

Does golfing have 10the degrees? ....

10th degrees is use mostly for title or years of experience....just a measurement which every martial art groups have their own rules of promotions.....

What is it worth today? .....look around....remember even in same rank black belts....skill levels will varied from unskill to skill,

THERE IS NO STANDARDS OF MEASUREMENT FOR ANY 10TH DEGREES...JUST what ever your organzations wants to declare...

Aloha, my tempurture just when up 10th degrees...UM?


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## redantstyle (May 10, 2009)

exactly^

what's a tenth degree black belt?

that stuff is all from judo anyways.


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## Lord-Humongous (May 10, 2009)

I thought 10th degree generally referred to a founder of an art or someone who substantially improved or furthered an art.  I didn't realize it was actually a level that one would achieve in a legitimate style.


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## redantstyle (May 10, 2009)

well, the standard line is that godan is the highest skill level.  after that it all about various kinds of development, both of the self and the organization.

i think time in grade is a good way to look at it.  

'real' skill is both objective and relative.


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## stone_dragone (May 10, 2009)

The few 10th Dans that I have had the pleasure to share mat space or a meal with have been very honorable, skilled, knowledgeable and most of all humble.  If you didn't know from seeing them on the mats, you would only know that there was something about them, not that they were high ranked masters.

1.  Vic LeRoux - Co-founder of the IKCA, very kind and straight forward, will do anything for a fellow human,.

2.  Stephen K. Hayes - Founder Toshindo, shidoshi student of Hatsumi, just plain amazing to be around, kind beyond words

3.  A gentleman whose name escapes me that was promoted to 10th Dan at a PKC event back in Jan 2001... I got to speak with him at the dinner and found that other than that "something," I wouldn't have known.

I've found that the ones that introduce themselves as "Hi, I'm John Q. Terrible, 10th dan...by the way, did I mention that I'm a 10th dan..." usually don't fit the other expectations that many folks have for such an experienced and senior grade.


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## seasoned (May 10, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Don't count anyone under 50 years old. That should cut the number down a bit.


Now lets not count anybody that promoted themselves to 10th, that should start to give us a realistic number.


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## geezer (May 10, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Now lets not count anybody that promoted themselves to 10th, that should start to give us a realistic number.



And yet how many living people have a rank that high that didn't have a role in their own promotion? My old instructor had a "10th level" (not "dan" since it was a CMA) and definitely was (and is) a self promoter in so many ways. Yet from the point of view of knowledge and skill, it was hard to argue about it. He was simply (and obnoxiously) the best in his system.

Personally, I despise the whole ranking thing. Coming back after a long retirement, I have given up my own ranking until, maybe someday, I really deserve it.


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## seasoned (May 10, 2009)

geezer said:


> And yet how many living people have a rank that high that didn't have a role in their own promotion? My old instructor had a "10th level" (not "dan" since it was a CMA) and definitely was (and is) a self promoter in so many ways. Yet from the point of view of knowledge and skill, it was hard to argue about it. He was simply (and obnoxiously) the best in his system.
> 
> Personally, I despise the whole ranking thing. Coming back after a long retirement, I have given up my own ranking until, maybe someday, I really deserve it.


You sound like a very honorable man, one of the very first virtues of any Martial Arts, that I am familiar with.


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## arnisador (May 10, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Now lets not count anybody that promoted themselves to 10th



Thereby eliminating Ed Parker and many others who founded their own style! Until there is an accepted "Council of Grandmasters" to hand out such ranks (which, as I understand it, effectively happened with Tatsuo Shimabuku and Isshin-ryu), there's a problem here. Who's the font of honour in the martial arts?


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## seasoned (May 10, 2009)

stone_dragone said:


> The few 10th Dans that I have had the pleasure to share mat space or a meal with have been very *honorable*, *skilled*, *knowledgeable* and most of all *humble*. If you didn't know from seeing them on the mats, you would only know that there was *something about them*, not that they were high ranked masters.
> 
> 1. Vic LeRoux - Co-founder of the IKCA, very kind and straight forward, will do anything for a fellow human,.
> 
> ...


You are most correct.This my friend is not taught, but cultivated over many long years of dedication, toward the betterment of self, and most of all, others.


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## seasoned (May 10, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Thereby eliminating Ed Parker and many others who founded their own style! Until there is an accepted "Council of Grandmasters" to hand out such ranks (which, as I understand it, effectively happened with Tatsuo Shimabuku and Isshin-ryu), there's a problem here. Who's the font of honour in the martial arts?


Honor bestows honor, which is cultivated from the roots of generations pasted. There is no other way.


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## chinto (May 11, 2009)

very few. usually only one in a system... i would be surprised if more then 10 or so ligament ones in the Okinawan and Japanese systems


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## still learning (May 12, 2009)

chinto said:


> very few. usually only one in a system... i would be surprised if more then 10 or so ligament ones in the Okinawan and Japanese systems


 
Hello, Judo in Japan has several names in the 10th degrees...search the Kodokan Judo in Japan

Judo is one of the few arts where getting a rank you fight for it to get promoted....so some people can advance very fast and others?  a longer time.

You need to beat a certain number or ( most)of students in the same rank and place well in several tournaments of same ranking.  ( Hawaii anyway) before you can move up.  ( NOT ALL JUDO CLUBS).

Search: Masahiko Kimura ( known as the Judo God )  Promted to 5th degree in less than 5 years...a from age of 16 years to 20 years.  As the years went by...he became UNBEATABLE....Aloha


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## still learning (May 12, 2009)

Hello, Does your martial arts class teach you verbal skills and prevention from being arrested?  ..one of few things we teach is...

Real basic stuffs here.....What to say and how to stand if someone is ready to attack you or is angry at you...HOW to say the few things that will protect you from the LAW and how to look innocent...yet ready to attack/defend yourself.    Knowing how to put your hands in a way to be ready and innocent at the same time.  ( Palms can be facing in or out )

So when the police come....the eye wittness will be on your side! and the laws of the land.

Verbal skills is just as important as the learning to punch.....NO one wants to end up in Jail or be sue....!

Learning is endless....Aloha


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## Brandon Fisher (May 12, 2009)

I have met 2 people ever that I would consider true 10th Dan's based on skill and knowledge and how they got their rank.  Both were Okinawan living and teaching on Okinawa.  In the USA, Europe and many other places in the world there are more in the non asian countries than there are on Okinawa or Japan put together and you can probably include Korea in the count also.


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## hongkongfooey (May 12, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Thereby eliminating Ed Parker and many others who founded their own style! Until there is an accepted "Council of Grandmasters" to hand out such ranks (which, as I understand it, effectively happened with Tatsuo Shimabuku and Isshin-ryu), there's a problem here. Who's the font of honour in the martial arts?


 
Just curious, why mention Parker and not Helio Gracie or Remy Presas? They founded their own styles, as well.


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## arnisador (May 12, 2009)

hongkongfooey said:


> Just curious, why mention Parker and not Helio Gracie or Remy Presas?



I thought I could make the point without a lengthy list.


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## MJS (May 12, 2009)

I'd say that there're quite a few 10th degrees out there.  Now, how legit they are, well...thats another story.  People tend to think that the 10th is some mystical thing that will make people ohh and ahhh and worship the ground they walk on.  Some do just that, but for me, its not the rank that impresses me nearly as much as the skill the person has.  

I've seen people with high rank and I felt that they really didn't deserve it.  I've also seen lower ranked people and thought that they'd be worthy of a rank higher than what they were wearing at the time.  

Personally, I think that people should spend more time spreading the art that they teach, continue to make themselves better, continue to make their students better, give back to the art and be a positive influence, instead of worrying what belt rank they wear.

Just my .02

Mike


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 13, 2009)

the prodigy said:


> how many would you say there are in the U.S.?


No specific number. Too many, though I think. Very few arts have a history of tenth degree ranks before the eighties or nineties. Bujinkan and Ed Parker Kenpo are the only two that I know of that have had a tenth degree for any length of time, though in Buginkan's case, Hatsumi added the tenth degree later and I am not certain of when.

But most modern styles did not have anything above fifth to eighth until dan-measuring contests began. I still remember when tenth dan was posthumous in most of the orgs that had it. Taekwondo had to create material for dan ranks above first and if I recall, did not go above fourth or fifth until the sixties or seventies, and then only to eighth or ninth.  Then you have guys who claim a tenth dan and a menkyo/kaiden in the same art at the same time.  Some of these claim tenth dan in multiple arts.

Now, it seems that every org wants to have dan ranks higher than the next guy. I think these guys watched Spinal Tap one to many times. 

Interestingly, the All Japan Kendo Federation recently bucked this trend and announced that there would be no more ninth dan kendoka. Current ninth dan will remain ninth dan, but the hachidan is the highest attainable dan rank at this point. 

Daniel


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## howard (May 13, 2009)

Looks like there have been 15 in judo.

From the judoinfo website, which as far as I know is legitimate:

*Kodokan 10th Dans in order of their promotion date:* 


Yamashita, Yoshitugu (1865-1935) Promoted 10th Dan 1935
Isogai, Hajime (1871-1947) Promoted 10th Dan 1937
Nagaoka, Hidekazu (1876-1952) Promoted 10th Dan 1937
Mifune, Kyuzo (1883-1965) Promoted 10th Dan 1945
Iizuka, Kunisaburo (1875-1958) Promoted 10th Dan 1946
Samura, Kaichiro (1880-1964) Promoted 10th Dan 1948
Tabata, Shotaro (1884-1950) Promoted 10th Dan 1948
Okano, Kotaro (1885-1967) Promoted 10th Dan 1967
Shoriki, Matsutaro (1885-1969) Promoted 10th Dan 1969
Nakano, Shozo (1888-1977) Promoted 10th Dan 1977
Kurihara, Tamio (1896-1979) Promoted 10th Dan 1979
Kotani, Sumiyuki (1903-1991) Promoted 10th Dan 1984
Daigo, Toshiro (1926- ), Promoted 10th Dan 2006
Abe, Ichiro, Promoted 10th Dan 2006
Osawa, Yoshimi, Promoted 10th Dan 2006
I see that there are a handful of people in hapkido who claim 10th dan rank. Not sure who gave them those ranks, but it would have been neither Choi Yong Sul nor Ji Han Jae. Choi awarded four 9th dans during his life.

There is also at least one reference to Choi Yong Sul having been a 10th dan, but that is incorrect. He was known as the doju (founder of the system or inheritor of the system in a chain that leads directly back to the founder). Choi himself never had any dan rank. Assuming that the story of his training in Daito-ryu is true, the only things he ever would have received would have been a teaching certificate (kyoju dairi) or a license of complete transmission (menkyo kaiden), because Daito-ryu did not use the dan system when Choi would have been a student.

In general, I'd be wary of 10th dans in any art except judo.


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## arnisador (May 13, 2009)

Aren't there also posthumous 12th dans in Judo?


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## still learning (May 13, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Aren't there also posthumous 12th dans in Judo?


 
Hello, Have you heard of some martial arts with 15th degrees....Universal Kempo Karate Schools....Professor Martin T. Buell had set up in his system...with up to 15th Degrees....yet to promote himself to 11th degrees....may retired soon.

Aloha,


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## Bruno@MT (May 14, 2009)

In western JJ, there are only dan grade exams up to 3d dan, or occasionally 4th dan, but that would be more of a token exam (words of my old sensei).

Starting from 4th, you get your dan grades for your involvement in the art (you have be an active teacher, organize a seminar every now and again, ...) and then you get your dan grades like clockwork:
wait 4 years for 4th
wait 5 years for 5th
wait 6 years for 6th
etc
This system is agreed upon by all sensei of which the club is a member of the national JJ federation (which are most of the western ones)

I knew a 7th dan sensei when I was still practising western JJ, I just did the math, did a google search, and found that he was now a 9th dan, just as expected. In another 7-8 years he should make 10.

I don't mean to sound negative about this though. I feel it would be better if advanced grades came with advanced requirements like in Genbukan, but at least in the system as I just described this, you know at least that a person with that grade has been doing his art for a very long time.


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## seasoned (May 14, 2009)

To claim mastery in anything, let alone 10th degree in MA, is kind of scary. If you are one, who would you want to tell it to. You would need body guards with you at all times to watch your back. People would be watching your every move, looking for that one mistake, and when it came, to look away quickly, for fear of embarrassment. No one can call themselves one, that is reserved for others to grant that to you. But, in that case who gave them the power to do so. The grading system is  misguided and misused, and in many cases detrimental to the arts. Are there a lot of 10th, probably more then we need. The few that are granted that, are the ones, that you may not even know if you ran into them out side of the dojo atmosphere. Do we need them, absolutely, they are the true ambassadors of the arts, the ones that have gone before, to show the way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Have you heard of some martial arts with 15th degrees....Universal Kempo Karate Schools....Professor Martin T. Buell had set up in his system...with up to 15th Degrees....yet to promote himself to 11th degrees....may retired soon.
> 
> Aloha,


Bujinkan has fifteen degrees, though I believe that eleven through five are considered higher degrees of tenth.

Daniel


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## arnisador (May 14, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Bujinkan has fifteen degrees, though I believe that eleven through five are considered higher degrees of tenth.



I think that's right.


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## chinto (May 17, 2009)

lol! if any person is not the head of the style its self and claims 10th dan, well lets just say im very skeptical!


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## amcgroup (May 27, 2009)

Too many. 

At one time in my style the highest rank was Shodan, as the system became more commercialized and broke off into various groups ranking above Shodan was created.

Every group added material (real or not ) for higher ranking and every group suddenly had a 10th degree master.

10th degree status is now watered down just like the original mystique of a black belt. When I trained and taught in the 1970's there were few black belts around, now there everywhere therefore today it means little.

Everyone is a master, professor or my favorite Soke and there all in some made up MA Hall of Fame.

My original instructor is a legitimate 8th degree who has been "training and studying" for over thirty years yet people who began after me have gone off declared themselves Masters and "created" their own system.

There are no controls and there will never be because no one can agree on a real standard. I was taught years ago that the only way to determine who is better is to fight, no rules or tap outs just fight to the end. 

All the Master Soke Professors under fifty should get together in a room and fight. The winner is the Master and we can all train with him. 

If their all so confident in their abilities that they decided there Masters then this shouldn't be a problem.

Then we can go back to the point of MA training; bettering oneself, self defense, physical and mental fitness or whatever legitimate reasons the arts were developed for.


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## Guardian (May 31, 2009)

Well it's safe to say that a accurate number will be unattainable at this point other then hundreds for sure, possibly thousands.

Maybe they ought to hold a dinner for them (Blackbelt Magazine) that is and let's see how many show up.  One of the pre-conditions is that you have to submit the proper papers showing your rank.  Well it might not cover everyone, but it sure would give us a close number.


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## stone_dragone (May 31, 2009)

chinto said:


> lol! if any person is not the head of the style its self and claims 10th dan, well lets just say im very skeptical!



Within the IKCA kenpo system's association bylaws, there is provision for non-founders to attain the rank of Judan.  Recently Mr. Doug Meeks of Napa, CA was honored by SGM Sullivan and GM LeRoux.  

The organization maintains the title of Senior Grand Master for the head of the system, currently SGM Sullivan.  The bylaws and requirements for promotion within the yudansha ranks was put in place long before anyone in the association attained the rank of 10th dan.  

All who have had the privilege of training with GM Meeks will testify that his skill, knowledge and humility are consistent with such an honor.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 31, 2009)

Do a google search on some of these internet based associations and see just how many 10th Dan's there are and how many names overlap its amazing.


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## Tensei85 (May 31, 2009)

Wow! That's amazing to have so many numbers, I think someone forgot to tell them were Martial Artist were not payed to count that high! Just kidding,

I can't really say anything on how many numbers someone puts on there belt, however I can say that even if your 100th degree it doesn't mean your high quality. In fact I've met 4th & 5th degree black belts that were trash, but then I've met color belts that had all the makings of a skilled proponent. 

So it comes down to were only as good as how hard we train. 

But that's pretty cool 15 degrees.


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## Tensei85 (May 31, 2009)

geezer said:


> And yet how many living people have a rank that high that didn't have a role in their own promotion? My old instructor had a "10th level" (not "dan" since it was a CMA) and definitely was (and is) a self promoter in so many ways. Yet from the point of view of knowledge and skill, it was hard to argue about it. He was simply (and obnoxiously) the best in his system.
> 
> Personally, I despise the whole ranking thing. Coming back after a long retirement, I have given up my own ranking until, maybe someday, I really deserve it.




I agree with that,
To be honest its all nice and superficial to receive your nice new black belt with your name on it or without just as nice. But its meaningless, I believe it was all just a promotion thing in the first place.

Personally I've never met a 10th degree black belt, in the TKD that I studied we had an 8th degree who was one of the higher ups in the World TKD Federation. Named Chang Soo Lim. But that's about as high as I've met.

And in Judo I met a 7th degree, Jujitsu a 8th dan. 

Kung Fu a 9th degree lol!

The important thing is there are amazing people in all different systems regardless of what rank they possess. There are lower ranks that are awesome! Then so called "Master" ranks that couldn't use what they know to defend themselves from a 5 year old.  

But I'll admit its a great feeling to get your 1st black belt, but after that trust me it gets old.

But 10th degree, I feel its all self promotion to make one self sound higher up than others even if it is accepted or established by an Association. 

As Geezer said, I agree and will say I'm happy to be a no rank now. (I gave up all my rankings, black belts etc...) I felt that there was too much significance being placed on belt rankings and not enough on personal skill.

Just my .02


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## TaekwondoForLife (Jun 1, 2009)

Depends on who you talk to. If you believe the United States Martial Arts Association and the various "Sokeship Councils" quite a few.

If you actually research legitimate organizations and styles, exclude self promoted instructors, exclude those promoted by friends, exclude those given the rank by rinky-dink local organizations, and exclude those given 10th Dan by organizations they founded, the number becomes quite smaller.


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## Balrog (Jun 4, 2009)

I only know of one, and he received the rank posthumously:  H. U. Lee, founder of the American Taekwondo Association.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 4, 2009)

I remember asking a karate sensei about how many degrees there were a very long time ago and he said that he only recognized eight, knew of some 9th in other arts, and said that tenth was only available posthumously.  

He was speaking in general terms, not absolutes, but it kind of makes me wonder if we have an undead-in-the-martial-arts dynamic going on here.

Daniel


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## Kenpo1981 (Jun 11, 2009)

I try to learn from whoever is teaching. Fakes expose themselves and I move on. I have had the opportunity to learn from 3 different men who wear/wore a 10th degree ranking. None of them are/were braggarts, all three are/were humble and never discussed their rank, all three are/were way more capable than I. Each of these men have/had many years of dedicated service in their given system behind them that is/was easily verifiable. One of them has passed on, the other two are heads of their own organization and moving their systems forward with honor.

   In my current system, rank above about 5th degree is honorary, based on what you are contributing to the system specifically and mankind in general. It's about your teaching and passing along the system in an honorable manner.

   I have many years of experience in several differing systems. I would say rank is specific to each individual system and doesn't really cross over well due to such a wide variety of time required to advance, amount of material covered for each rank, etc. It varies from school to school lots of times as well.

   I say earn the rank with honor, pass the knowledge on with honor.


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## Haze (Jun 11, 2009)

True story,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

I was at a tournament and this 7yr old was running around in the bleachers. He was a yellow belt. A prominent Hanshi from my area of the woods called the young man over and asked him to stop running. The kid says "I'm just having some fun" Hanshi says  "Do you know who I am? I'm so and so, I'm a tenth degree black belt!" The kid looked at him and said "My name is so and so and I'm a yellow belt" and ran off.

I don't think the 7yr old was impressed at all with rank. He was just at the tournament to have some fun.


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## Kenpo1981 (Jun 11, 2009)

Haze said:


> True story,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> I was at a tournament and this 7yr old was running around in the bleachers. He was a yellow belt. A prominent Hanshi from my area of the woods called the young man over and asked him to stop running. The kid says "I'm just having some fun" Hanshi says "Do you know who I am? I'm so and so, I'm a tenth degree black belt!" The kid looked at him and said "My name is so and so and I'm a yellow belt" and ran off.
> 
> I don't think the 7yr old was impressed at all with rank. He was just at the tournament to have some fun.


 

That is too funny!!!! Leave it to a kid to feed us adults a tasty slice of humble pie!!! Hahahahaha


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 11, 2009)

Haze said:


> True story,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
> 
> I was at a tournament and this 7yr old was running around in the bleachers. He was a yellow belt. A prominent Hanshi from my area of the woods called the young man over and asked him to stop running. The kid says "I'm just having some fun" Hanshi says "Do you know who I am? I'm so and so, I'm a tenth degree black belt!" The kid looked at him and said "My name is so and so and I'm a yellow belt" and ran off.
> 
> I don't think the 7yr old was impressed at all with rank. He was just at the tournament to have some fun.


Thats great!!!  Respect is earned but when demanded it tends to bite ya where the good lord split ya.


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## JourneymanDave (Jun 12, 2009)

I thought 10th dan was reserved for founders, or does it vary in different arts?
I know Judo has em, what else does too?


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 12, 2009)

Almost every modern system has them, although primarily those that have roots in Korea or Japan.

Whether they are awarded often or not varies on the art itself.
For example, the highest grade in Kendo is 8th dan. 9th or 10 still exist in theory, but they are (almost) never awarded. However, once you are in that area of grades, there are also 3 master titles that can be awarded. So in practise: a Hanshi 6th dan can outrank a renshi 7th dan.

In Judo, 10th Dan is awarded, but it is extremely rare.
In Genbukan, I suppose it is possible, though noone is quite there yet. Genbukan only exists for 30 years. 10th is something that is achieved over a lifetime of dedication.
In bujinkan, 10th dan is not uncommon, but that is because dan grades have a different meaning (and their scale runs up to 15 instead of 10).

Also, some systems enforce mandatory intervals between an increase in grade. In kendo this is as many years as the dan grade you want to achieve. After 3d dan, you have to wait 4 years to get 4th (or perhaps it was as many years as the one you have?)
So this means that by the time you are eligible for the 8th dan exam in kendo, you have been doing kendo for half a lifetime, even if you pass all exams first time (which you won't).

So you see it's very hard to make meaningful comparisons between dan grades of different system.


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## Kajowaraku (Jun 12, 2009)

Additionally, in genbukan you also have the mastery levels (renshi, kyoshi, jun shihan,...) which mean more than bare dan ranking. On top of that there's also the kaiden system. One person might be a 6th degree kyoshi, but another might be 5th dan renshi with Shoden Menkyo in koto ryu and shindenfudoryu (to just give an example). That basically makes that person higher ranked in those ryuha, but for internal organisation he will still have to sit in seiza after the 6th degree kyoshi. 

On top of that no flashy belts are used to denote these things. One is expected to "know thine Renshi / Kyoshi / ..." They are all listed on the organisational website to make sure nobody can pretend to be something they're not.


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## TheArtofDave (Jun 27, 2009)

_*I'm not talking about the few 10th degree ranks there may be. I also know a lot of them are the con artist paper mill type looking for a quick buck, and also the subsequent "learner" is just looking for a quick way to claim rank without putting in the actually work. That is just lazy.

Where did the honesty, and credibility go with these people who want to "fake" what their actual work is. Don't they know more reward comes with work, dedication, and your personal journey from your white belt to your black black. From your first degree to your ninth, or however your system works. 

Where did the credibility go? Tradition should not always be thrown out the window in order to advance quicker. Think of all the opportunity you miss out on.

I'd rather put in the work, and value the journey. Than to have my credibility shot down by some mcdojo, or paper mill.

That makes me admire the legitimate ones even more.
*_


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## thesandman (Jul 1, 2009)

I've found that most people who are quick to discount rank or belittle the achievements and skills of high ranking black belts are those who are either afraid they'll never reach that level or don't want to admit that some people out rank them.

That being said, yes some people are out there with ranks they don't really deserve for a variety of reasons.  It's hard to know at a glance which ones are which.  Though you can generally tell pretty quickly once you see them teach.

Lets also make sure we don't fall in the trap of not distinguishing the difference between taking pride and being egotistical.  I take great pride in my MA accomplishments.  My rank and some of my awards are part of my resume.  They say something important about who I am that potential employers might think is relevant.  That does not mean I go around bragging about it or treating others poorly.

My grand-master instructor has his rank, title and some of his accomplishments on his website.  This is advertising and informational, not ego.  

So a few things to keep in mind during these discussions:

Recognition that superior knowledge/experience/skill exists beyond us.  There's always someone better.

Recognition that ambition/pride does not equal dishonor/egotism.


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 1, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Too many. Enough that when I meet one the first thought in my head is no longer "Wow, this must be someone worthy of great respect."


 
What he said.



			
				thesandman said:
			
		

> I've found that most people who are quick to discount rank or belittle the achievements and skills of high ranking black belts are those who are either afraid they'll never reach that level or don't want to admit that some people out rank them.
> 
> That being said, yes some people are out there with ranks they don't really deserve for a variety of reasons. It's hard to know at a glance which ones are which. Though you can generally tell pretty quickly once you see them teach.
> 
> ...


 
They're a dime a dozen any more. That's what takes the "specialness" from actually being one. It used to be many could work a lifetime and never achieve that rank and that's what gave that rank the prestige it once had. 

I don't really have anything personal against some that have strapped it on, but it definatley does not garner the same respect it once did. 

Personally, I don't care. I'm not a rank chaser so it doesn't pertain all that much to me. I'm out to learn as much as I can. That can't be taken from me and in the end I show what I know when it counts; any respect I recieve is earned.


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## Haze (Jul 1, 2009)

I see 10th dans issued to others by 10th dans of other arts. I know a 10th dan that had started his own association and years later awarded a 10th to his first instructor. I know a 10th that know one I talk to can euxplain his lineage in the art. I know a 10th who was promoted by Peter Urban in Nisei Goju but Frank Rueis (sp?) was the founder/head of Nisei Goju. 

My last test was in 1991. Stopped looking for any rank beyond Shodan. I got enough to work on. I've been told I need to test but I have to learn someones curriculum and I really don't care to.  I am what I am.


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