# US guns flooding into Mexico



## James Kovacich (Jan 24, 2013)

I was watching the TV show Border Wars and today they focused on the illegal weapons being confiscated at the border heading into Mexico. There many handguns and rifles including AK47's and 50 Cals. They were moslty new and never fired and some already converted to automatic.

They showed the inside of their East Coast (undisclosed location) warehouse, it was massive. They destoyed 2800 weapons and that amount was nothing compared to what is still in the warehouse.

This is a major problem! 

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## billc (Jan 24, 2013)

Write to obama and ask him to stop giving those guns to the bad guys...that will go a long way to solving the problem...


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## Big Don (Jan 24, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> I was watching the TV show Border Wars and today they focused on the illegal weapons being confiscated at the border heading into Mexico. There many handguns and rifles including AK47's and 50 Cals. They were moslty new and never fired and some already converted to automatic.
> 
> They showed the inside of their East Coast (undisclosed location) warehouse, it was massive. They destoyed 2800 weapons and that amount was nothing compared to what is still in the warehouse.
> 
> ...


Maybe you should read up on Fast and Furious.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 24, 2013)

I'm familar with the ATF flub. This has nothing to do with that. None of these guns were a part of that Govt/LE "walkover." You guys need to take these issues seriously. If these problems could be fixed there would be less of an uproar against guns. Combined, the problems are compounding. I don't see Congress passing any bans, not by their gavel. But some things have to get done. 

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## ballen0351 (Jan 24, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> I'm familar with the ATF flub. This has nothing to do with that. None of these guns were a part of that Govt/LE "walkover." You guys need to take these issues seriously. If these problems could be fixed there would be less of an uproar against guns. Combined, the problems are compounding. I don't see Congress passing any bans, not by their gavel. But some things have to get done.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



Well when they stop sending us their cocaine and gang members maybe we will stop sending them guns


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## James Kovacich (Jan 24, 2013)

The US is the largest consumer for drugs in the world. We, our country, created an environment that spawned the inevitable, the cartels. 

I really didn't expect this. Y'all have a choice. Be a part of the solution, or be a part of the consequence. If y'all (Republicans) keep sticking your heads in the sand for these issues. Others (Democrats) will be the solution. 

Y'all claim this and that but your ideals are fadiing. Wake up before it becomes an all Democrat solution. After that, all you'll have is talk, which y'all are really good at. 

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## Blindside (Jan 24, 2013)

Right, well funded drug cartels who have a proven ability to pass products through multiple international shipping routes and countries will have a problem obtaining weapons if the US magically cut off the supply of weapons to them....

Look at the evidence of these same drug cartels (founded by ex-military personnel like the Zetas) having much heavier weaponry than single-fire rifles like RPGs, tanks, fragmentation grenades, and figure out just how hard it would be for them to acquire a crate of AKs if they really wanted them?

The US State department has approved direct sales of ARs to the Mexican Government, over 10K of them in 2009 and they stopped disclosing how many they approved in 2010 and 2011.  Some of those (actually more than "some") have have wound up in cartels hands.  Oh, and this doesn't include the thousands of ex-military and police who have joined the cartels, members who took their guns with them when they did so.  

I'm not saying that the illegal gun traffic is something to be ignored, but even if we managed to eliminate it, the problem of armed drug cartels would not go away.


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## Blindside (Jan 24, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> The US is the largest consumer for drugs in the world. We, our country, created an environment that spawned the inevitable, the cartels.
> 
> I really didn't expect this. Y'all have a choice. Be a part of the solution, or be a part of the consequence. If y'all (Republicans) keep sticking your heads in the sand for these issues. Others (Democrats) will be the solution.
> 
> ...



Quick, what is the solution to the issue that the US is the largest consumer of recreational drugs in the world?


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Quick, what is the solution to the issue that the US is the largest consumer of recreational drugs in the world?



I didn't say I had a solution. I thought this thread by lead to real dialogue but I was mistaken. Ballen made the comment about the cocaine coming in and I responded pointing out we are the number 1 market in the world.

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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Right, well funded drug cartels who have a proven ability to pass products through multiple international shipping routes and countries will have a problem obtaining weapons if the US magically cut off the supply of weapons to them....
> 
> Look at the evidence of these same drug cartels (founded by ex-military personnel like the Zetas) having much heavier weaponry than single-fire rifles like RPGs, tanks, fragmentation grenades, and figure out just how hard it would be for them to acquire a crate of AKs if they really wanted them?
> 
> ...



There's a big differance between selling guns to the Mexican Govt and smuggling guns accross the border. One is selling to a Govt that has the intention of fighting the cartels. The other is turning a blind eye to guns going straight to the cartels. 

These guys blaming Obama for the ATF losing those weapons is wrong to. It dosent matter how high up the ladder it went as far as giving the go ahead for fast and furious. Not Obama nor anyone in the Whitehouse  walked those guns into Mexico and lossed them. That would be a branch of law enforcement. We have many problems that are compounding. The "party of no" needs to step up and help. If they don't, they wont like the outcome and it will be there own fault for not doing enough. Look closely here. Who is on offense and who is on defense? 

I'm not against the gunshows. I bought a gun from one before and I plan to again. But it dosent have to be so easy especially in the border towns. There are a lot of things that need to be addressed. If the 2 parties don't work together, somebodies rights are going to get trashed, at least in their eyes they will.

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## oftheherd1 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> There's a big differance between selling guns to the Mexican Govt and smuggling guns accross the border. One is selling to a Govt that has the intention of fighting the cartels. The other is turning a blind eye to guns going straight to the cartels.
> 
> These guys blaming Obama for the ATF losing those weapons is wrong to. It dosent matter how high up the ladder it went as far as giving the go ahead for fast and furious. Not Obama nor anyone in the Whitehouse  walked those guns into Mexico and lossed them. That would be a branch of law enforcement. We have many problems that are compounding. The "party of no" needs to step up and help. If they don't, they wont like the outcome and it will be there own fault for not doing enough. Look closely here. Who is on offense and who is on defense?
> 
> ...



Blindside's assertion that guns sold to the Mexican government may be true.  I don't know since he provided no links to anything that would support it.  But it wouldn't surprise me.  If we find it is true, and in significant amounts, is just another way to smuggle and should be stopped. I don't mean the US gov't is trying to smuggle guns to the cartels, but that if that is the ultimate result, we should stop being a part of it.  Again, I don't know if statements above that Mexican gov't soldiers are taking their guns to join cartels is true.  Frankly, it seems a little far fetched on a large scale.

Nor can Pres Obama be absolved of blame.  I could give you he might not know about it ahead of time; he may not have.  But it is obvious he has tried to facilitate a cover up.  That you may remember was the big problem Nixon had.  Nixon probably didn't know of the breakin ahead of time, but he certainly went to great and illegal lengths to try and cover it up.  Now nobody can ever know what level of US government law enforcement approved such a fiasco.  Nor will anybody be censured for such a poor, if not illegal, decision.

I don't have a problem with gun shows either.  But I am also open to background checks of some sort prior to an individual being able to buy guns.  We have the technology to do that.  But we need to enlarge our databases to include those with known mental instabilities, not just known criminals or suspected terrorists.  What do you think the chances of that being supported by either republicans or democrats?


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## Blindside (Jan 25, 2013)

This is a quick reference for some of the direct sales (approved by the State Dep) to the Mexican Government.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500202_162-57337289/legal-u.s-gun-sales-to-mexico-arming-cartels/

Fun quote out of that article:


> The State Department audits only a tiny sample - less than 1 percent of  sales - but the results are disturbing: In 2009, more than a quarter (26  percent) of the guns sold to the region that includes Mexico were  "diverted" into the wrong hands, or had other "unfavorable" results.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> The US is the largest consumer for drugs in the world. We, our country, created an environment that spawned the inevitable, the cartels.
> 
> I really didn't expect this. Y'all have a choice. Be a part of the solution, or be a part of the consequence. If y'all (Republicans) keep sticking your heads in the sand for these issues. Others (Democrats) will be the solution.
> 
> ...



So if Mexico holds no blame in drugs 
Coming here why is it the US blamed for guns go there?

Secondly this is a Mexico law enforcement problem not a US Republican or Democrat problem.  We dont make laws for mexico


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## Grenadier (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> I was watching the TV show Border Wars and today they focused on the illegal weapons being confiscated at the border heading into Mexico. There many handguns and rifles including AK47's and 50 Cals. They were moslty new and never fired and some already converted to automatic.
> 
> They showed the inside of their East Coast (undisclosed location) warehouse, it was massive. They destoyed 2800 weapons and that amount was nothing compared to what is still in the warehouse.
> 
> This is a major problem!



Agreed.  

Now, all you have to do is stop the illegal weapons smugglers from committing their crimes.  I'm quite sure that you are aware of the fact that the so-called "68% of guns recovered in Mexico are from the US" stat only applied to guns they knew came from the USA and could be traced.  

As for the rest of them that came from other foreign sources (the overwhelming majority)?  Those were never traced, or included in the "68%" statistic, else the already weak assertion would have been ridiculed even more.


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## cdunn (Jan 25, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Quick, what is the solution to the issue that the US is the largest consumer of recreational drugs in the world?



Let Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, etc sell low-risk recreational drugs as competition. The Zetas and their ilk will stop when we stop buying.


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## crushing (Jan 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Well when they stop sending us their cocaine and gang members maybe we will stop sending them guns



This won't stop as long as the politician friendly Banksters continue to get a cut of the action as they help facilitate such transactions.  Feel free to google 'us banks mexican drug money'


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## billc (Jan 25, 2013)

Yeah, this might be part of the problem...

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/01/20/Mexico-Authorities-Detain-158-Police-Officers



> Authorities say 158 local police  officers have been detained in northern Mexico for alleged ties to  organised crime. Al Jazeera's Adam Raney reports from Mexico City.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> So if Mexico holds no blame in drugs
> Coming here why is it the US blamed for guns go there?
> 
> Secondly this is a Mexico law enforcement problem not a US Republican or Democrat problem.  We dont make laws for mexico



Your trying to compare apples and oranges, 2 problems require 2 solutions.

I didn't say Mexico wad absolved. Did you not read the initial post of how many guns that are being consfiscated on our side of the border going into Mexico?

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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

billc said:


> Yeah, this might be part of the problem...
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2013/01/20/Mexico-Authorities-Detain-158-Police-Officers



Very true! That's even more reason why we need to "try" harder to stop the flow of guns south. The "compounding" fits into all these posts.

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## ballen0351 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> Your trying to compare apples and oranges, 2 problems require 2 solutions.
> 
> I didn't say Mexico wad absolved. Did you not read the initial post of how many guns that are being consfiscated on our side of the border going into Mexico?
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


Right but if its the US consumer that keeps the drugs flowing this way isnt the mexican consumer keeping the uns flowing that way?

Heres a good idea lets secure the border.  Like for real secure it not fake vitural fences 


whats your plan?


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## ballen0351 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> Very true! That's even more reason why we need to "try" harder to stop the flow of guns south. The "compounding" fits into all these posts.
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



Why is it our job to stop crime in Mexico?


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## Big Don (Jan 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Why is it our job to stop crime in Mexico?



If we did, we'd be accused of wanting an EMPIRE. If we don't, the stupid will blame us for it.


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## Blindside (Jan 25, 2013)

cdunn said:


> Let Pfizer, Johnson & Johnson, etc sell low-risk recreational drugs as competition. The Zetas and their ilk will stop when we stop buying.



I don't have any issue with certain legalized drugs, the problem is that no one is going to legalize heroin or meth or will be able to provide an alternative with a comparable high, so you will always have an market for the product.


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## billc (Jan 25, 2013)

Has anyone considered that obama and holder might still be sending guns down to Mexico.  Think about it.  They did not have any real consequences for getting caught doing it the first time, despite the deaths of 2 federal agents and over 300 Mexican citizens...and only a few low level flunkies at Justice department either lost their jobs or were demoted...you would have to look that up.  So what would be the reason to not send more guns down there, especially with this new anti-gun push.  It is his last term, the Republicans don't have the guts to impeach him, they already held holder in contempt....they very well could have sent more guns down there again...


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Right but if its the US consumer that keeps the drugs flowing this way isnt the mexican consumer keeping the uns flowing that way?
> 
> Heres a good idea lets secure the border.  Like for real secure it not fake vitural fences
> 
> ...



I say secure the border too. Anybody that has ever crossed the US/Mexico border knows we have to wait in line for a long time. When I crossed it took over 2 hours to get back in the US. If we don't start addressing our borders better, it will be like that going both ways.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Why is it our job to stop crime in Mexico?



What???   The "crimes" are on "our" side of the border trying to smuggle the guns into Mexico. How about we catch the criminals here first! 

I"m really surprised by your posts being LE and all. Lately your logic is sounding less like LE and more like Bill and Don! :whip1:


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

Big Don said:


> If we did, we'd be accused of wanting an EMPIRE. If we don't, the stupid will blame us for it.


Are you for real. We are an EMPIRE. We are THE EMPIRE. If we are going to go around the world acting like the world police, then we'd better well do it in our own backyard! You guy crack me up. :whip:


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## ballen0351 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> What???   The "crimes" are on "our" side of the border trying to smuggle the guns into Mexico. How about we catch the criminals here first!
> 
> I"m really surprised by your posts being LE and all. Lately your logic is sounding less like LE and more like Bill and Don! :whip1:



If the gun is legally owned in the US its not a crime until it crosses the border.  
If its not legally owned here then Its kinda like the loud drunk at the bar that cusses at the cops over and over but as hes cussing hes walking home.  Im not going to mess with him if hes leaving.  Same with the guns if they are leaving then they are not going to be my problem anymore.  Sure its a poor attitude but I got my hands full dealing with the problems right here.  If  I find them fine Ill do what I got to do but I wouldnt make it a priorty like your making it out to be.


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## Uncle (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> Are you for real. We are an EMPIRE. We are THE EMPIRE. If we are going to go around the world acting like the world police, then we'd better well do it in our own backyard! You guy crack me up. :whip:



Actually in a lot of cases the US does what Rome did. You invade a country and install or allow or coerce the election of someone favorable to your agenda. They are then expected to explicitly or covertly follow your lead. These are not labelled as conquered territories but "America's allies" much like "friends of Rome."


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> If the gun is legally owned in the US its not a crime until it crosses the border.
> If its not legally owned here then Its kinda like the loud drunk at the bar that cusses at the cops over and over but as hes cussing hes walking home.  Im not going to mess with him if hes leaving.  Same with the guns if they are leaving then they are not going to be my problem anymore.  Sure its a poor attitude but I got my hands full dealing with the problems right here.  If  I find them fine Ill do what I got to do but I wouldnt make it a priorty like your making it out to be.


It's a felony to "attempt" to take them into Mexico.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> It's a felony to "attempt" to take them into Mexico.


Is it?  I have no idea I dont work in that type of Law Enforcement.
If your right then its already a crime and if the warehouse is as full as you say then they are doig the best they can what more do you want them too do?


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## Blindside (Jan 25, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> It's a felony to "attempt" to take them into Mexico.



Can you cite this US law?  Usually laws involving transport of well, anything fall onto the country you are transporting too.  If I take legal marijuana from Washington State into Canada, the law that I will get prosecuted under is Canadian law.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Can you cite this US law?  Usually laws involving transport of well, anything fall onto the country you are transporting too.  If I take legal marijuana from Washington State into Canada, the law that I will get prosecuted under is Canadian law.



No I can't but I've been watching Border War before going to work and I'm sure I heard it there. If it wasn't illegal how could they make the arrest and consficate the guns on this side of the border?  Also guns are illegal in Mexico. A single gun on the Mexico side can get someone a stiff prison sentence.

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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

I googled it but the punishment didn't seem to come up onlynthat smuggling guns into Mexico was illegal. 
http://www.ice.gov/firearms-explosives-smuggling/ 

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## James Kovacich (Jan 25, 2013)

billc said:


> Write to obama and ask him to stop giving those guns to the bad guys...that will go a long way to solving the problem...



I just stumbled on this. It reports that the George Bush administration "walked" guns over into Mexico. Maybe we found the big guy who signed off on the deal. 
http://www.mainjustice.com/2011/10/...xico-during-george-w-bush-administration-too/ 

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## James Kovacich (Jan 26, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> Are you for real. We are an EMPIRE. We are THE EMPIRE. If we are going to go around the world acting like the world police, then we'd better well do it in our own backyard! You guy crack me up. :whip:


WOW, that post earned me a negative rep point!
This is threir response. "words have meanings"  cheap shot...


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## billc (Jan 26, 2013)

Sorry, the program under Bush was called "Wide Reciever," and the one under obama and holder is "Fast and Furious," and there are major differences, the major one being when a couple guns "walked," across the border under Wide Reciever, they realized what a bad idea it was and stopped the program...obama and holder sent 2500 fully automatic weapons into Mexico with no way to track them...because they wanted to jump start the gun control debate...

Here are two looks at the differences between Bush's operation and obama's criminally negligent one...

http://reasonedpolitics.blogspot.com/2012/02/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious.html



> *Wide Receiver vs. Fast and Furious*
> 
> 
> *Main Page*​*
> ...


http://conservativebyte.com/2012/06/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious/



> Wide Receiver was an attempt to build a case against gun smugglers and the drug cartels, to find out who they were, where they are. The purpose of Fast and Furious was to build a case against the Second Amendment. In a nutshell, Wide Receiver began in 2005. It involved four hundred guns. All of the weapons in Wide Receiver had RFID trackers installed in them, and they were actively tracked. Only the Phoenix ATF and DOJ were involved. The Mexican government was kept fully informed. They were an active participant. In Wide Receiver, the ATF agents tried to track the guns using radio devices and aircraft. They wanted to find out where the guns ended up, into the hands of which cartels and where they were, so that a case could be made. It was an effort to track these people to find them, locate them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A

Read more: http://conservativebyte.com/2012/06/wide-receiver-vs-fast-and-furious/#ixzz2J7OW5kvN


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## James Kovacich (Jan 26, 2013)

billc said:


> Sorry, the program under Bush was called "Wide Reciever," and the one under obama and holder is "Fast and Furious," and there are major differences, the major one being when a couple guns "walked," across the border under Wide Reciever, they realized what a bad idea it was and stopped the program...obama and holder sent 2500 fully automatic weapons into Mexico with no way to track them...because they wanted to jump start the gun control debate...
> 
> Here are two looks at the differences between Bush's operation and obama's criminally negligent one...
> 
> ...



So your saying even though the this process started under Bush, Obama is guilty because the guns were lost??? I'm sorry my friend, Obama didn't doing any gunwalking. It was the ATF that blundered this, the same ATF that Bush used. ATF at times seems to be a black eye for law enforcement.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/05/earlyshow/main20115824.shtml?tag=contentBody;cbsCarousel
Attkisson asked, "When you look back and think in hindsight knowing what we know now - that all those guns were going on the street - what do you think about?"
  Detty said, "It really makes me sick."
  Attkisson noted  that all this happened under the Bush administration - three years before the start of "Fast and Furious," the better-known ATF operation under the Obama administration that  has  come under scrutiny . "Fast and Furious" allegedly let thousands of weapons fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels, and is now the subject of two investigations.
  The "Fast and Furious" tactic of letting guns "walk" was exposed after Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry was murdered last December and at least two assault rifles from "Fast and Furious" were found at the scene.
  As for its predecessor, "Wide Receiver,": prosecutors finally, quietly, rounded up seven suspects last fall. No cartel leaders, just buyers who - critics say - should never have been allowed to put even one weapon on the street, let alone operate for years.


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## billc (Jan 27, 2013)

You need to read my post a little more carefully...



> *Reaction to guns &#8220;getting away&#8221;:*
> Wide Receiver: Program terminated. William Newell wrote memo saying &#8220;never again&#8221;
> Fast and Furious: Program continued &#8211; recovered guns tracked and mapped.





> *Actions at the Border:*
> Wide Receiver: Attempted to hand off surveillance to Mexican law enforcement
> Fast and Furious: ATF worked with Customs to make sure guns were not stopped at border



The Bush program was ended in 2007 because they couldn't control it...that was the quality that must have attracted obama and holder...



> At least 1,400 arrests were made as part of Wide Receiver. Now, once ATF found out the smugglers were disabling the tracking devices, the RFID tracking devices that were planted in the guns, they ripped them out and then the guns were lost. So the program was shut down in October of 2007. Once the bad guys discovered the tracking devices, the program was ended, in 2007. Ended.



The guns weren't "lost," they were intentionally flooded into Mexico so they could be found at arrest sites and could then be used to blame the U.S. gun market...jump starting obama's anti-gun program.



> Fast and Furious began in October of 2009. Obama is in his tenth month. Wide Receiver doesn&#8217;t exist. It&#8217;d been shut down for two years. Fast and Furious involved over 2,000 guns. Wide Receiver was 1,400 guns. Roughly. No tracking devices were planted in the Fast and Furious guns. The regime didn&#8217;t care where they ended up.


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## Blindside (Jan 27, 2013)

James Kovacich said:


> I googled it but the punishment didn't seem to come up onlynthat smuggling guns into Mexico was illegal.
> http://www.ice.gov/firearms-explosives-smuggling/
> 
> Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2



Found it, the Arms Export Control Act, basically you need a license to export firearms.


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## Big Don (Jan 27, 2013)

Blindside said:


> Found it, the Arms Export Control Act, basically you need a license to export firearms.


I'm pretty sure you need a license to export anything, legally.
But, lets blame the guns, and punish the law abiding gun owners anyway...


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