# Christ & Martial Arts



## ktaylor75 (Feb 2, 2008)

This may sound foolish to some, but this is something that I have really been struggling with as a Christian.  God is very present and very alive in most areas of my life...church, family, and work.  However, I struggle to be able to have God a part of my martial arts training.  Maybe this does not make sense to some, but it is as if God is at one end of the spectrum and karate is at the other...how do you bring them together?  I just feel very off-balance, very off-center.  I love God, I highly enjoy Kenpo, but I just can't quite figure out how to bring them together.   I hope maybe someone out there understands my question, and any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. 

Thanks much


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 2, 2008)

Why do you feel off balance and why do you feel they are at opposite ends of the spectrum?

I am not big on religion but if God created everything then he must have had a hand in creating Karate and I am being serious here.


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## morph4me (Feb 2, 2008)

I think that depends on how you precieve God.  For instance, if you believe that God is in all of us, then anything you do to improve yourself or others is a way of honoring God, and martial arts is about improving yourself so there is no conflict.  

If you can explain what your beliefs are, and why you feel God and karate are on opposite ends of a spectrum, instead of say, part of the same circle, perhaps someone might be able to give you a different perspective.


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## Ninjamom (Feb 2, 2008)

K, I understand where you are coming from - many martial arts have strong religious underpinnings in their histories, and in some of their modern practices.  When I first began studying Tae Kwon Do about five years ago, I joined five different MA forums as part of my personal journey to look into and settle this issue for myself.

As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and sovereign over every aspect of existence.  Every other aspect of life must bow its knee at His altar.  Period.  I think it comes down to 'calling' and your particular reasons for practicing martial arts.  In my case, I know that my physical well-being was out-of-whack, and I know that I started martial arts in direct response to a leading to do something about it.  It has afforded me the opportunities to improve my physical health, meet people and make friendships with folks I never would have otherwise met, allowed me to grow in my teaching ability (something also part of my 'calling', and has afforded me access to opportunities for proclaiming the Gospel in areas I never could have imagined.

Settle this one question for yourself: does God want you personally studying martial arts?  The answer will be as individual as your personal relationship with Christ.  As long as you are not in idolatry through your involvement in martial arts to the detriment of your other obligations, then there is nothing inherently 'wrong' about martial arts.  Like music, or food, or money - there is nothing inherently 'evil' about any of them, as long as they aren't abused.  Once you settle that one question, if you find this is something God has called you towards for this time and season, then do it heartily, as unto Him who has given us all things richly to enjoy.


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## ArmorOfGod (Feb 3, 2008)

It's not hard to put the two together, particularly if you are a Christian.  As a Christian, it is your duty to make God the backbone of every aspect of your life.  Everything you do, you do in His glory.
Regarding self-defense, don't forget the Jesus told his followers to sell their cloaks to buy swords Luke 22:36-38.  I feel that shows Jesus supported self-defense.
Now, with that said, here are a few links that may help you: 

http://www.wfn.org/2006/02/msg00059.html

http://www.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.1406481/k.DEEA/Karate_becomes_m
ission_tool_for_Dallasarea_church.htm

http://www.umc.org/site/c.gjJTJbMUIuE/b.947107/k.8579/Haiyaah_Pastor_us
es_karate_for_Christ.htm 

After those, you MUST read this one: http://www.karateforchrist.com/board/display_topic_threads.asp?ForumID=1&TopicID=155&PagePosition=3

Also, there are countless Christian MA associations and schools.  I am a certified instructor for Karate For Christ International www.karateforchrist.com but that is one of many.

Google "Christian Martial Arts" and be prepared for lots and lots of results.

AoG


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2008)

I do not recall anywhere in the new testiment where it says do not defend yourslef. It may say love thy brother but dose it say   anywhere not to defend yourslef or not to help others in need.
Not trying to hijack the thead or steer it of course just asking why you feel tha being a "christian" means you should not learn something to defend yourslef?


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## mrhnau (Feb 3, 2008)

Hope you don't mind a question or two...

how would you feel about serving in the military and being taught combat there?

Does this have anything to do w/ chi/ki? or veneration of past masters? Do you think this is art specific?

The kind of questions you are dealing with are hard  If its causing your walk to suffer, why are you trying so hard to reconcile the two? Which one is fundamentally more important?


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## Carol (Feb 3, 2008)

Personally, I think you are extremely fortunate to have such a dillema.

I'm guessing you have not seen one of your friends and brothers-in-faith arrested on live national television, with his picture displayed next to Osama Bin Ladin.  Or had people...sometimes in uniform, yell threatening remarks to a companion of yours because he was sporting a beard and turban.  Or had a sister-in-faith in a neighboring state call you in tears because the house of worship she attends was burned to the ground and deemed a hate crime, and how the act had injured an elderly priest that was visiting the area to offer his kind words of wisdom to the community.  Or are a mother on the west coast who had to bury not one but two of her sons who were targeted and shot to death due to their beard and turban.  And, I sincerely, truly pray that something like this never happens to you or your brothers and sisters in faith. 

But for those of us who have come face-to-face with people in this country that wanted to physically harm us simply for what they thought was our religion or what they thought we believed in...for us the concept of God and martial arts are very much on the same end of the same spectrum.

Good luck on your journey, and God Bless.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 4, 2008)

My own take on this and it may mirror a number of the responses here but here goes.
Reading the thread and your initial post I was brought to mind something Bruce Lee talked about in his "last interview". Lee was talking about two things that were "opposite" each other yet, and I want to go with the *concept* here okay (remember he was a philosophy major), he said : 





> "... here it is, natural instinct, and here is control, you are to combine the two in harmony, if you have one to the extreme you become very unscientific, if you have another to the extreme you become all of the sudden a mechanical man...


 So with that; the *concept* of the two extremes which are struggling for dominance in your life (so it seems) are whats giving you the greatest trouble, yet you cannot find no center? Find no harmony in the two? In one t.v. show Lee admonishes a blind character (Longstreet) to "...listen, LISTEN!!" he's talking more than just physically listening, he also means spiritually listening. Study also the Yin-Yang symbol. Look at it, what does it represent? :yinyang:
Believing and living in Christ is a wonderful thing for many people. Karate, "Martial Arts" is a wonderful thing for many people. Combining the two is a wonderful thing... for a few people. Why? I believe because people don't know how to listen. 
For me it is because I have found a center or found a way to allow the two to compliment each other and I mean on a spiritual basis. Awareness of my soul and the chi it has allows me to do this. Martial arts has allowed me to instruct my being with being still, to listen to what's going on spiritually, inside me. My knowledge and faith in my Lord/God helps this awareness because my faith has made me aware of my spirit/soul. Knowing it's there and knowing that because of the unlimited power that God has instilled in the human soul, I am responsible to seek out it's potential and be aware (if not capable) of what it can do. Chi has been mentioned in this thread and in my post. It's real, it's a fact and it exists. It is the _energy_ produced by the soul. Without it our brains would not function, our hearts would not beat, our lungs could not breathe in/out air and our muscles would not move/grow. 
Through our respective journeys in MA we learn at first to combine in harmony two things, our minds and our bodies. Using our minds to learn the techniques and training our bodies to perform them until they become (as Lee said) "natural instinct", if you've trained long enough you're able to do it without thinking. When you have achieved this level however (as I believe) you have or are just beginning to learn how to combine not only mind and body but also the soul (the "control" that Lee was talking about), because, and I believe this strongly, that the soul tells the mind to tell the body to do this, move this way, act thus and say this and so on... control, so combining mind/body/spirit thus is becoming as God/Christ/Holy Spirit-Ghost 3 separate entities working as 1, or as one purpose. 
My own journey in this has been long and it is far from finished. But learning what I have so far I'm happy to share, even if it isn't for you then perhaps I have at least given food for thought or given you something to compare your beliefs with. 
But for me, it's truth. For someone else their truths are theirs. You, I believe must find yours. And the searching comes from within and yes, through prayer and meditation. 
My truths came not only from myself but from what I've learned from others and their truths. It's a humbling experience to be sure. But if we, like Christ asks us to do: "have faith as little children", we can accomplish wondrous things for _ourselves_ and have the (inner) peace that so many long for and never find.


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## stone_dragone (Feb 4, 2008)

I would highly recommend watching the movie Facing the Giants (movie clip link).  

It is a Christian movie about football and how if you do all things to the glory of God, it doesn't matter if its eating Doritos, washing clothes, playing football or practicing kenpo.  

Watch the movie (not just the youtube clips in the link above) and replace the footbal with kenpo in your life...and then pray about it.  If you still can't reconcile the difference, then quit kenpo.  I'm confident that this will give you some answers.


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## Ceicei (Feb 4, 2008)

There is an old thread some years ago that discussed how it is possible to feel good being a martial artist while dealing with others who think martial arts is not a feminine activity nor compatible with being religious.  The old thread may not necessarily apply to your situation, but the posts that were made may offer some insights.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17885

- Ceicei


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## ktaylor75 (Feb 4, 2008)

stone_dragone said:


> I would highly recommend watching the movie Facing the Giants (movie clip link).


That was a great movie...we watched it during our Sunday evening service one night at church.



Carol Kaur said:


> But for those of us who have come face-to-face with people in this country that wanted to physically harm us simply for what they thought was our religion or what they thought we believed in...for us the concept of God and martial arts are very much on the same end of the same spectrum.


I know it is not the same as the examples you gave, but one Saturday afternoon, me and other bus-workers were out visiting our bus-kids/Sunday school kids and trying to spread the Gospel message when the bus captain was talking to some gang members about Christ when they pulled a knife and began slashing his face all up. 



mrhnau said:


> how would you feel about serving in the military and being taught combat there?


I was in the military...years ago. Next summer, once I am in good shape, my intention is to join the Coast Guard reserve. I am all for the military and combat training...it's all about survival. 




tshadowchaser said:


> I do not recall anywhere in the new testiment where it says do not defend yourslef. It may say love thy brother but dose it say anywhere not to defend yourslef or not to help others in need.
> Not trying to hijack the thead or steer it of course just asking why you feel tha being a "christian" means you should not learn something to defend yourslef?


I guess what got me was when a Christian friend of mine told me that in the Old Testament it was okay to defend yourself, family, and property, however, with the birth of Christ we get "turn the other cheek." through research and personal Bible study this week, I have discovered that he is way wrong. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. God does allow us to defend self, family, and property.



ArmorOfGod said:


> It's not hard to put the two together, particularly if you are a Christian. As a Christian, it is your duty to make God the backbone of every aspect of your life. Everything you do, you do in His glory.
> Regarding self-defense, don't forget the Jesus told his followers to sell their cloaks to buy swords Luke 22:36-38. I feel that shows Jesus supported self-defense.
> 
> Also, there are countless Christian MA associations and schools. I am a certified instructor for Karate For Christ International www.karateforchrist.com but that is one of many.
> ...


Thanks for those verses, that really helped. I've talked with my Pastor about someday having martial arts as a ministry someday and he thinks it is a great idea. 



Ninjamom said:


> K, I understand where you are coming from - many martial arts have strong religious underpinnings in their histories, and in some of their modern practices. When I first began studying Tae Kwon Do about five years ago, I joined five different MA forums as part of my personal journey to look into and settle this issue for myself.
> 
> As a Christian, I believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and sovereign over every aspect of existence. Every other aspect of life must bow its knee at His altar. Period. I think it comes down to 'calling' and your particular reasons for practicing martial arts. In my case, I know that my physical well-being was out-of-whack, and I know that I started martial arts in direct response to a leading to do something about it. It has afforded me the opportunities to improve my physical health, meet people and make friendships with folks I never would have otherwise met, allowed me to grow in my teaching ability (something also part of my 'calling', and has afforded me access to opportunities for proclaiming the Gospel in areas I never could have imagined.
> 
> Settle this one question for yourself: does God want you personally studying martial arts? The answer will be as individual as your personal relationship with Christ. As long as you are not in idolatry through your involvement in martial arts to the detriment of your other obligations, then there is nothing inherently 'wrong' about martial arts. Like music, or food, or money - there is nothing inherently 'evil' about any of them, as long as they aren't abused. Once you settle that one question, if you find this is something God has called you towards for this time and season, then do it heartily, as unto Him who has given us all things richly to enjoy.


I had many reasons for beginning in martial arts...weight loss, fitness, to learn self-defense, a way to channel my own frustrations in life, and just because martial arts has always fascinated me and I wanted to learn it. I had been praying for God to help me in my desire to lose weight and for whatever reason, martial arts was put on my heart.



MA-Caver said:


> My own take on this and it may mirror a number of the responses here but here goes.
> Reading the thread and your initial post I was brought to mind something Bruce Lee talked about in his "last interview". Lee was talking about two things that were "opposite" each other yet, and I want to go with the *concept* here okay (remember he was a philosophy major), he said : So with that; the *concept* of the two extremes which are struggling for dominance in your life (so it seems) are whats giving you the greatest trouble, yet you cannot find no center? Find no harmony in the two? In one t.v. show Lee admonishes a blind character (Longstreet) to "...listen, LISTEN!!" he's talking more than just physically listening, he also means spiritually listening. Study also the Yin-Yang symbol. Look at it, what does it represent? :yinyang:
> Believing and living in Christ is a wonderful thing for many people. Karate, "Martial Arts" is a wonderful thing for many people. Combining the two is a wonderful thing... for a few people. Why? I believe because people don't know how to listen.
> For me it is because I have found a center or found a way to allow the two to compliment each other and I mean on a spiritual basis. Awareness of my soul and the chi it has allows me to do this. Martial arts has allowed me to instruct my being with being still, to listen to what's going on spiritually, inside me. My knowledge and faith in my Lord/God helps this awareness because my faith has made me aware of my spirit/soul. Knowing it's there and knowing that because of the unlimited power that God has instilled in the human soul, I am responsible to seek out it's potential and be aware (if not capable) of what it can do. Chi has been mentioned in this thread and in my post. It's real, it's a fact and it exists. It is the _energy_ produced by the soul. Without it our brains would not function, our hearts would not beat, our lungs could not breathe in/out air and our muscles would not move/grow.
> ...


I thank you for sharing about your journey. I still do not understand exactly what chi is, but it really is fascinating. I am beginning to see the mind/body connection more and more...the more I practice the techniques, the more naturally they flow--the less I find myself thinking about what comes next. And you are right, through faith, we can accomplish wondrous things. 

Again, thank you all for your insightful responses. You have all given me so much to think about and apply to my situation. God bless you all and I wish you all well on your own personal martial arts journeys.


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 4, 2008)

There is an excellent article regarding your concerns here. 

Here is the introduction:



> As a Christian and a martial arts student, I have often wrestled with the idea of self defense. Does God expect me to defend my family and myself when physically attacked or am I to "turn the other cheek" and endure it in the name of Jesus? As I considered the many comments I encountered on this topic, I became even more confused. Some advocates for "religion" have gone as far as to say that anyone who practices in any form of the martial arts is without a doubt bound for hell. It wasn't until I committed myself to a more thorough study of the scriptures that I discovered the truth for myself. The Bible gives more than a few examples of the practice of self defense and the idea of martial arts. I would like to share some of what I have learned in this study of the Bible - Old Testament and New. The Bible is, in fact, the very word of God (II Timothy 3:16-17).



I think you will find the full article very helpful. :asian:


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## MA-Caver (Feb 4, 2008)

Jade Tigress said:


> There is an excellent article regarding your concerns here.
> 
> Here is the introduction:
> 
> ...


That is a great article. Thanks as I can use it to help yet another new MA student who has a strong faith and has struggled with the "conflict" that many devout christians feel when first taking up (any) MA.


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## thardey (Feb 5, 2008)

The prayer meeting I go to used to fall right before my karate practice. Often times things would be brought to my attention during prayer that would bother me, and I wouldn't get an answer just through prayer. 

Then, while doing karate, I would continue to meditate on the problem, and the answers often came to me during class. Sometimes it would be just enough of a physical distraction to give me a new perspective, sometimes it would be a principle that I could apply to spiritual warfare.

Something like: I can't get through this form because I'm too tense, I've forgotten to breath -- and this situation isn't really that bad, I'm just too tense about it, if I relax, I can deal with it. 

Or another time: I can't do this kick because I've got the timing and order off, I'm raising my leg too early in the spin! Hmm in this other situation, I think I'm skipping a step in the learning process, I need to slow down and make sure everything is in the right order and in God's timing.

Stuff like that.

My personal area of struggle at first was with the "turn the other cheek, but buy a sword" issue. I found out that culturally, the "turn the other cheek" reference was more about punishing the fellow after the crime was over, not in preventing it. It was about fighting for pride, and social status. Our laws reflect that mindset in America, with the prohibitions against "mutual combat" and in the need to use only the amount of force necessary to stop the attacker, and no more.

Perhaps through karate you will learn to see another side of Christ's character, the Lion of Judah, that you may not have had any experience with before. Most Christians are more familiar with the "Lamb of God." Which is a beautiful picture, but not complete.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 5, 2008)

I am not Christian, but I'm gonna try anyways 

What matters is the intent behind what you do.  If you are training to stay in shape, for social aspects and for fun, training is good.  It is good for you, mentally, socially and physically.  It keeps your body healthy and your mind sharp.

If you where training with the intent to hurt people, that is not so good.  Even if you are training with the intent that it is for self-defence, you risk the idea of "wanting" that encounter to use your skills, which you have been training for that encounter.  This is not so good, it feeds negativity.

Hurting someone is a skill you will get, but it is a side effect, not the goal.  Yes, you could very likely defend yourself against unarmed attack, but when that becomes the goal, and what you are thinking about, then training adds a negative aspect IMO.  

I also think that while training should be competitive, it should be competitive in a friendly way.  The reasons are similar, when winning becomes important you run into poor sportsmanship, and risk losing respect for your opponent, and people get hurt.  When you fight, especially if you compete, you fight to win.  But winning shouldn't be the most important thing, and the other person should be congratulated if they win.

One thing I don't like is when people go into a fight, or any sporting event, and say "God is on my side", or "God gave me this win".  If you believe in God, believe he is there, with you, protecting you, but is also there for your opponent.  

Suppose you had two kids, and they where playing a game, it would be wrong for you to tip the game in favour of one or the other, you can watch, support both of them, but not tip the odds in favour of one or the other.  You would also not feel right if the eventual winner of the game gave you credit, saying they won because you choose them to win.  That should be the role of God in your training, as a supportive spectator, one that doesn't take sides.

You can use God for encouragement, too help you push through tough sessions, or too help you stay motivated, same as your child would in a game, but never to play for you.


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 5, 2008)

Christ physically attacked money-lenders in the temple and at least one of his disciples carried a sword.  Why should you be expected to not be concerned with self-protection and the ability to fight?  

I never hear anyone worry that playing softball or being in a bowling league may conflict with their religion. Considering the current state of martial arts, I'd be more fearful of someone coming at me with a baseball bat or tossing bowling balls at me than I would a 1-year-wonder black belt.  The potential to harm others is always present.  If you worry that studying or knowing a martial art endangers your faith, reexamine your faith, not your dojo.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 5, 2008)

I am a Christian. I've been one since about the same time I began MA more than 25 years ago. Few on MT know this about me but I have a BA in Biblical Studies & a masters in Christian Education. I have served churches as a youth pastor, teaching pastor & in social work positions.

This issue has certainly come up in my life many times: both from within myself & from others. I can share my thoughts & things that I have worked through: but they are not meant to even pretend to preach or tell what "the Bible says" on any of this subject. Each person needs to work that out for themselves as they follow Christ.

I struggled from time to time with Jesus' words of "turn the other cheek" as I practiced in great detail to inflict bodily harm on others. What was worse (in my mind) was that I enjoyed learning things like joint locks & delivering a punch or kick as my opponent hit the ground. What has helped me a lot was realizing that *I *could choose where I get my philosophy of life. I could get it from Patrick Swayze from the movie "RoadHouse" or from the main character in a Charles Bronsan flick. I found when I did that I wasn't fun to be around. When I chose to live my life after the example of Christ, I lived my life as an MA-ist through the lens of Christ. In other words, I tried to think "what if Jesus had the MA skill that I was learning?" How would HE act? As a Christian, I have the promise of the Holy Spirit in my life to guide & direct my behavior.

I'm a Taekwondo guy. The 5 tenents of TKD are:
1) courtesy. 2) integrity. 3) perseverence. 4) self-control. 5) indomitable spirit

The Fruit of the Spirit from Ephesian 6:22ff are:
1) love. 2) peace. 3) patience. 4) goodness. 5) faithfulness. 6) gentleness. 7) self-control.

I see these as being very compatible viewpoints. As I Christian, I'm to bear the Fruit of the Spirit: but even if I'd never heard of the tenents of TKD, I'd be living them as well by being a Christian. Being a Christian has made me a better Taekwondoan. While I've learned discipline through MA: my faith in Christ is my guide, rather than MA. I've had good instructors & bad ones: but neither have ever been the Holy Spirit in my life to guide my steps.

I've been in situations where I've thought I've needed to defend myself, but thankful it didn't have to come to that. MA has helped me to realize what a punch or a kick to my face feels like. It doesn't feel good, but it's not the worst thing that can happen. The few times where I've needed to deal with that type of threat, I've been able to be strong & help difuse the situation, instead of being fearful as the person wanted me to.

For me, I've learned over the years that MA is compatiable with my faith because I've chosen to follow Christ as Lord not just on Sunday morning, but also during my class & after. I don't want to oversimplify it & make it sound easy. It's a daily choice. Some days it's not easy. It's a matter of how & when I use my MA skills. I choose to use them in classs, to train at a high level, to look after my partners & to not hurt them, to push them to be better as they do to me. My goal is do the same thing in the rest of my life as well: because Christ compells me to do so.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 5, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> Christ physically attacked money-lenders in the temple


 Yes but remember he wasn't doing it out of defense, he initiated the attack against the money changers, creating a whip of sorts and using it to beat the men away from the cages holding the sacrifices to be sold to the poor so they could meet the requirements by Jewish Law, and breaking open the cages letting pigeons, doves and other animals loose. 
He was the attacker not a defender. There's a difference. 
That Peter carried a sword is well known, but again, when he used his blade in defense of his Lord in the garden of Gethsemane (cutting off the ear of a Roman soldier... which Jesus quickly healed), Jesus stopped him. Mainly because Peter was inadvertently & unknowingly interfering with God's plan. Thus, showing, IMO that he was saying there's a time and a place for non-defense for any one of us. As I see it (and ironically like the Muslim radicals thoughts -- if not methods) it's to die in service of your God.

Here's some food for thought; One of my favorite quotes is Jesus saying: "No greater love hath any man than he who lays down his life for a friend." Just isn't specific about it. So if a friend of mine is being attacked and is in threat of being mortally wounded and I step in and fight and die so that he/she can live... Or is it as simple as stepping in front of a bullet?


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## MarkBarlow (Feb 6, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> Yes but remember he wasn't doing it out of defense, he initiated the attack against the money changers, .
> He was the attacker not a defender. There's a difference.



That's why I phrased it the way I did.  I didn't say he was attacked, I said he attacked.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 6, 2008)

Perhaps one of you more versed in things Christian and Biblical can help me out.

I have heard that what we read in modern English as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was a mistranslation of what was in its original language "Thou Shalt Not Murder".

If it is known whether this is accurate, that could make a world of difference as to how self defense can be viewed because there is a world of difference between those two sentences.

Confirm/deny/comment?


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## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

From Brown-Driver-Brigg's Hebrew Definitions:

"Thou shallt not kill" (Ex. 20:13)


> *H7523*​ *&#1512;&#1464;&#1510;&#1463;&#1495;*​ ra&#770;tsach​ *BDB  Definition:*​ 1) to murder,  slay, kill​ 1a) (Qal) to murder,  slay​ 1a1)  premeditated​ 1a2)  accidental​ 1a3) as  avenger​ 1a4) slayer  (intentional) (participle)​ 1b) (Niphal) to be  slain​ 1c) (Piel)​ 1c1) to murder,  assassinate​ 1c2) murderer,  assassin (participle) (substantive)​ 1d) (Pual) to be  killed​ *Part of  Speech:* verb​ *A Related Word  by BDB/Strong&#8217;s Number:* a primitive  root​ *Same Word by  TWOT Number: *2208​ *Total KJV  Occurrences:* 47​ *slayer,  17*​ Num 35:11, Num 35:25-28 (4), Deut 4:42, Deut 19:3-4 (2), Deut 19:6, Josh 20:3, Josh 20:5-6 (2), Josh 21:13, Josh 21:21, Josh 21:27, Josh 21:32, Josh 21:38​ *murderer,  13*​ Num 35:16-19 (7), Num 35:21 (2), Num 35:30-31 (2), 2 Kin 6:32, Job 24:14​ *kill,  4*​ Ex 20:13, Num 35:27, Deut 4:42, Deut 5:17​ *murder,  3*​ Ps 94:6, Hos 6:9 (2)​ *slain,  3*​ Judg 20:4, Ps 62:3, Prov 22:13​ *manslayer,  2*​ Num 35:6, Num 35:12​ *death,  1*​ Num 35:30​ *killed,  1*​ 1 Kin 21:19​ *killing,  1*​ Hos 4:2​ *murderers,  1*​ Isa 1:21​ *slayeth,  1*​ Deut 22:26​


Other Hebrew words for "kill"

For combat-related killing:


> *H5221*​ *&#1504;&#1464;&#1499;&#1464;&#1492;*​ na&#770;ka&#770;h​ *BDB  Definition:*​ 1) to strike,  smite, hit, beat, slay, kill​ 1a) (Niphal) to be stricken  or smitten​ 1b) (Pual) to be stricken  or smitten​ 1c) (Hiphil)​ 1c1) to smite,  strike, beat, scourge, clap, applaud, give a thrust​ 1c2) to smite,  kill, slay (man or beast)​ 1c3) to smite,  attack, attack and destroy, conquer, subjugate, ravage​ 1c4) to smite,  chastise, send judgment upon, punish, destroy​ 1d) (Hophal) to be  smitten​ 1d1) to receive a  blow​ 1d2) to be  wounded​ 1d3) to be  beaten​ 1d4) to be  (fatally) smitten, be killed, be slain​ 1d5) to be  attacked and captured​ 1d6) to be smitten  (with disease)​ 1d7) to be  blighted (of plants)​


Often used for killing of animals or sacrifices:


> *H2026*​ *&#1492;&#1464;&#1512;&#1463;&#1490;*​ ha&#770;rag​ *BDB  Definition:*​ 1) to kill, slay,  murder, destroy, murderer, slayer, out of hand​ 1a) (Qal)​ 1a1) to kill,  slay​ 1a2) to destroy,  ruin​ 1b) (Niphal) to be  killed​ 1c) (Pual) to be killed, be  slain​


To kill as judgement - usually reserved for God, or only by command of God.


> *H4191*​ *&#1502;&#1493;&#1468;&#1514;*​ mu&#770;th​ *BDB  Definition:*​ 1) to die, kill,  have one executed​ 1a) (Qal)​ 1a1) to  die​ 1a2) to die (as  penalty), be put to death​ 1a3) to die,  perish (of a nation)​ 1a4) to die  prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct)​ 1b) (Polel) to kill, put to  death, dispatch​ 1c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to  death​ 1d) (Hophal)​ 1d1) to be killed,  be put to death​ 1d1a) to die  prematurely​


"Slaughter" seems appropriate for this one:


> *H7819*​ *&#1513;&#1473;&#1464;&#1495;&#1463;&#1496;*​ sha&#770;chat&#803;​ *BDB  Definition:*​ 1) to kill,  slaughter, beat (verb)​ 1a) (Qal)​ 1a1) to  slaughter​ 1a1a) beast for  food​ 1a1b)  sacrifice​ 1a1c) person in  human sacrifice​ 1a1d) beaten,  hammered (of shekels)​ 1b) (Niphal) to be  slaughtered, be slain (of food or sacrifice)​ 2) (BDB)  slaughtering (noun feminine)​ 2a) word  doubtful​


Same here:


> *H2873*​ *&#1496;&#1464;&#1489;&#1463;&#1495;*​ t&#803;a&#770;bach​ *BDB  Definition:*​ 1) to slaughter,  slay, butcher, kill ruthlessly​ 1a) (Qal)​ 1a1) to slaughter,  butcher​ 1a2) to slay, kill  ruthlessly (figuratively)​



Hope that helps


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## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Perhaps one of you more versed in things Christian and Biblical can help me out.
> 
> I have heard that what we read in modern English as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was a mistranslation of what was in its original language "Thou Shalt Not Murder".
> 
> ...



Short answer - confirm

If by "modern" you mean the 1611 King James version, it reads "shalt not kill"

New King James Version:
"shall not murder"

New American Standard:
"shall not murder"

New International Version:
"shall not murder"

among others


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## Ninjamom (Feb 6, 2008)

There are several other examples in Scripture where it shows a distinct difference between 'killing' and murder.  For example, the penalty for manslaughter was different than the penalty for premeditated murder.  Also, Joab was condemned not just for killing someone (after all, he was a soldier), but because he 'shed the blood of war' in a time of peace.  Nehemiah urged the inhabitants of Jerusalem to defend themselves against an armed attack, telling them to, 'Fight for your brothers, your sons, your daughters, your wives and your houses.'


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## Brother John (Oct 17, 2008)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Perhaps one of you more versed in things Christian and Biblical can help me out.
> 
> I have heard that what we read in modern English as "Thou Shalt Not Kill" was a mistranslation of what was in its original language "Thou Shalt Not Murder".
> 
> ...


 

CONFIRM  !!
The most accurate rendering is "Murder", an unjustified slaying. It especially indicates premeditation and malice. I think that most modern translations of the Scriptures treats it as "murder". 

Good call.....

Your Brother
John


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## kaizasosei (Oct 17, 2008)

people tell you about God but only you can really know God for yourself.  So first and foremost, listen to what your own heart tells you.  you may have to let go of what others have told you and listen to what your own inner being tells you.  Jesus was not Christian in todays sense of the word and he was not extremely traditionaly jewish.  Jesus was revolutionary because he preached and spoke to the heart and from the heart.  you must be smart as a serphent and gentle as a dove. not the other way around.   

jesus did not want to start up a religion.  he wanted to unite all people, all religions, through the wisdom of the truth- the very whole spectrum.

The teachings of Jesus are not at any end of a spectrum, they are the whole spectrum.  Meditate on the words of Jesus and don't be so quick to accept anyone elses interpretation unless it really speaks to that beautiful and powerful source of justice and mercy-your own heart.  I'd start there.  

j


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## ganglian (Oct 17, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> people tell you about God but only you can really know God for yourself.  So first and foremost, listen to what your own heart tells you.  you may have to let go of what others have told you and listen to what your own inner being tells you.  Jesus was not Christian in todays sense of the word and he was not extremely traditionaly jewish.  Jesus was revolutionary because he preached and spoke to the heart and from the heart.  you must be smart as a serphent and gentle as a dove. not the other way around.
> 
> jesus did not want to start up a religion.  he wanted to unite all people, all religions, through the wisdom of the truth- the very whole spectrum.
> 
> ...



Heres something interesting, I'm christian and a sufi, and your desription above is everything both stand for. He spoke to the heary from  the heart, the sufi symbol is a winged heart, as is through no connection, the bujinkan dojo I belong to. Coincidence? i dont know, and pretty interesting....


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## Ray (Oct 18, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> Christ physically attacked money-lenders in the temple and at least one of his disciples carried a sword. Why should you be expected to not be concerned with self-protection and the ability to fight?


And after Peter cut off the roman soldier's ear in the garden, Christ told Peter to put his sword away -- he didn't say "throw it away."


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 18, 2008)

ktaylor75 said:


> This may sound foolish to some, but this is something that I have really been struggling with as a Christian.  God is very present and very alive in most areas of my life...church, family, and work.  However, I struggle to be able to have God a part of my martial arts training.  Maybe this does not make sense to some, but it is as if God is at one end of the spectrum and karate is at the other...how do you bring them together?  I just feel very off-balance, very off-center.  I love God, I highly enjoy Kenpo, but I just can't quite figure out how to bring them together.   I hope maybe someone out there understands my question, and any thoughts on the matter would be appreciated.
> 
> Thanks much



Caveats:

I think everyone should be able to believe what they choose to believe. I am not big for religions but support spirituality.


As to being opposites and off balance:

My assumptions from your comments:
God and Christianity is peaceful and non violent and one should do what they can to help others. 

Martial Arts the learning of how to hurt others. 


If I may, and I am not trying to be insulting, I think if my presumptions are close or correct you have over simplified life and the issue at hand.

Religion and faith is for people to give them guide lines and to help them in dealing with things that are tough to deal with and also to give them a built in support group. The old saying of it takes a village to raise a child come to hand. One needs to understand the context of the rules and why they were given or written down. As mentioned there are quotes from the Bible Old and New Testaments where violence was used, but may not have been the first choice. 

Martial Arts can and should teach people how to impart pain. But it can also teach one discipline, and confidence and also helps one with their over all health. So, if one uses martial condition to train oneself to make them more confident in their life and also to make them healthier it gives them a better chance to live longer and at peace and also to do things they believe important. 

Both are tools that can help a person in life. Both can be abused by individuals and one should be aware of this. 


I could give examples of the more training people have to more likely they are to pay attention to their surroundings. In the end they do not travel the most dangerous roads if there are more safe paths. They might even live a more peaceful life with less violence or threat of violence. The confidence they gain could also let a person not run away from confrontation and be willing to stand in the heat and in the end there could be a peaceful result by your actions. 

And then there are the conditions of violence in your life, and if you are attacked or forced to defend yourself you have a better probability of surviving, including knowing when you are out classed and seeing the option of running away. But, you may have to strike back to create that window. 

So, I hope you can see that it can be resolved. But I would like to ask more about the balance. If the system you are training in is not what you are looking for but the idea is ok then look for a new system. If the issue is the instructor(s) and you not getting along or being able to learn, one can look for new instructors in the same art or another. As I said, individuals can make it tough. So, if your learning style is differnet from that presented by the school then you might have to find a different place to train.

There is also the reason why you joined in the first place. Do not answer, just think about the questions. Where you attacked? Were you scared? Was it a family matter of others joining? Was it a health issue? 

(* These may not apply to you *) 

Many join after being attacked or scared and then they find there is no magic technique that works 100% of the time on everyone and that there is no single answer. This is true there is no single answer. The Answer is time for the fear and also for learning enough to put you into the higher percentile of being trained to defend yourself. But, many realize that they do not want to put the time in. So, if the balance is a time factor you cannot resolve the amount of time and you are looking for a reason to leave, then talk to the instructor and explain why you are leaving and in the future the instructor will understand if you decide to come back. 

If it was an issue of health, then one might have to decide a differnet path to accomplish your goals. Not everyone enjoys running marathons, but others might like riding a bike ro just walking. As individuals we are all different and differnet likes and dislikes. 

As to the friends or family joining and you joined as well, and now it may seem rough to leave as it is just not for you. Sit down with them and talk to them about your concerns and issues. 


As I enjoy teaching and training I hope others will as well, but when a student comes to me and says I prefer this instead, I wish them the best and have even helped them find what they are looking for with recommendations. 

Good Luck and enjoy what ever you do decide to do.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 22, 2008)

i have also read stories where people came to attack jesus many times and he would apparently sometimes defend himself and disappear- 
im thinking, he cleverly defended, escaped and slipped away or sensed it was time to move on..it sortof points to the fact that he may have known some stuff...

the real mysteries, though, are the powers of healing....

according to the bible, he would heal lineups of really sick people and all were healed.  

Jesus himself seemed to be aware that this power was something divine and ascribed it to divine mercy stating that the old testament prophesies had come true by these actions.


j


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## Lynne (Oct 28, 2008)

Hi K,

I understand your situation.  I once belonged to a fundamental Baptist church that was very Bob Jones-oriented, aka, they were more of a cult (they still embrace the Hamidic Hypothesis - that blacks are cursed because they came from Ham).  In that church, I was so unhappy.  I never felt like I could please God.  Of course, He didn't need pleasing.  Belief is all that is required of the Christian.

My point is that your church's take on doctrine and their attitudes may be influencing you.  Let's call it what it is in some churches - brainwashing and mind control.  In my old church they would have frowned on martial arts - a moment of meditation would be calling upon Satan in their eyes.  The self-control and self-discipline required for martial arts would have been considered depending upon myself instead of God. The peace, joy and self-confidence gained from martial arts would have been considered an abomination.

You see, there is a killer in the church and it's the frozen chosen, not God.  God wants you to reach your potential...and he wants you to be happy.


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## KP. (Nov 22, 2008)

In a Christology course I took while in a Benedictine monastery many years ago, the professor made a point that stuck with me ever since. 

If, we as Christians, hold that Christ was fully human and fully God as is normative creedal belief, then we must recognize that Christ endured all normal bodily functions. Christ was holy in all he did, and we are to emulate him in all we do. There is, therefore, a way to take a holy dump. 

As gross and blasphemous as that might sound at first, it is actually a perl of wisdom: a Christian must recognize that being christian doesn't start or end with the high spiritual or philosophical moments attained in some church gathering or prayer hall. It is a about seeing Christ in everyone, and being Christ to everyone -- which is something very interesting to ponder the next time you're in a public toilet. Then is when asking yourself "what would Jesus do" can really push you to grow as a spiritual person.


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## BanannaSmoothie (Nov 22, 2008)

well, i'm a jew, but i can say this.  i have found martial arts to be one of the most kabbalistic things i have done other than study.

if you want to bring religion and MA together, think about this.  as a christian you believe that jesus has commissioned you to minister the gospel right?  well, MA will put you into great shape to live a long and healthy life to deliver this message for many more years.  sounds good right?

another thing, i've heard christians talk at length about being wiling to die for their belifes.  i've also heard the "what would you do if someone was going to kill you for being christian?  deny or admit faith in christ?"
my answer would be, to hell with that, i would use my super awesome karate chop skillz and whip their butts with a set of nunchucks.  they would wish they had never woken up that morning after i'm done protecting myself and my fellow christians.  

so, look at it that way if you want.  sorry if this doesn't help, but i'm a jew.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

KP. said:


> In a Christology course I took while in a Benedictine monastery many years ago, the professor made a point that stuck with me ever since.
> 
> If, we as Christians, hold that Christ was fully human and fully God as is normative creedal belief, then we must recognize that Christ endured all normal bodily functions. Christ was holy in all he did, and we are to emulate him in all we do. There is, therefore, a way to take a holy dump.
> 
> As gross and blasphemous as that might sound at first, it is actually a perl of wisdom: a Christian must recognize that being christian doesn't start or end with the high spiritual or philosophical moments attained in some church gathering or prayer hall. It is a about seeing Christ in everyone, and being Christ to everyone -- which is something very interesting to ponder the next time you're in a public toilet. Then is when asking yourself "what would Jesus do" can really push you to grow as a spiritual person.


 

As Jews we have a prayer for every occasion.

Blessing to be recited on relieving oneself in the morning (on rising)

Blessed are You, Lord our G-d, king of the universe, who fashioned the human body with wisdom and created within it many openings and many cavities. It is obvious and known before your Throne of Glory that if one of them was opened or one of them was blocked it would be impossible to survive and stand before You. Blessed are You Lord, who heals all flesh and acts in wondrous ways.   

_ Siddur_


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## BanannaSmoothie (Nov 22, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> As Jews we have a prayer for every occasion.
> 
> Blessing to be recited on relieving oneself in the morning (on rising)
> 
> ...


 

don't you know it's a shabbos violation to post on forums right now?  bad jew, no chanukah gelt for you!


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2008)

BanannaSmoothie said:


> don't you know it's a shabbos violation to post on forums right now? bad jew, no chanukah gelt for you!


 
Ah but in the UK shabbos is finished!! About two hours ago!


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## KenpoGirl75 (Nov 23, 2008)

I must tell ya, it has been quite a while since I first posted this topic.  I have since been able to balance all aspects of my life.  I have even gotten a couple of other families from my church to sign up their children for training at the dojo I train at.  

Lynne, yes, I attend a fundamental baptist church and while the church is very strict in its standards and doctrines, the Pastor does understand that we are all human and that we are not perfect.  The church I attend does not sound anything like the one you attended.  I am sorry to hear about your experience with that fundamental church, and just want to let you know that they are not all like that.  My Pastor's view on martial arts has changed quite a bit over the past year as I have been able to explain different aspects of it to him.  One of the church members that just signed up their children for the homeschool karate class at the dojo is actually the in-law family of my Pastor.  

I've also come to the conclusion that should a situation ever occur in which I need to defend myself or someone else against an attacker, I would try to fight back anyhow, so I might as well learn how to defend myself more effectively in different situations.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2008)

I believe G-d gave us the tools to look after ourselves and others and it's an insult to Him not to use them. Like all parents His aim is for us to be independant adults not dependent on him for everything tiny thing and constantly bothering him. We have to take responsibilty. People start doubting G-d when bad things happen but funnily enough they never doubt him when good things do. G-d gave us two feet, He meant us to stand up on them, of course you should defend yourself and yours whyever wouldn't you?

The story I like is that of a man who after dying in floodwater starts berating G-d for that death. 'Look' says G-d 'I sent the police around to your house to warn you the floodwater was rising, but you said oh no G-d will save me, then when the waters got higher and you were on the second floor of your house I sent the navy guys round with a boat, oh no you said G-d will save me, when you were on the roof I sent the airforce guys in a helicopter but you said oh no G-d will save me so don't you dare tell me I did nothing! I gave you the means to save yourself and you flung it back at me!"


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