# Evolution in taekwondo



## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

So get ready for some real change! Coming to a Dojang near you..A new taekwondo rank structure, now with meaning and new colors, plus new uniforms!  EXTRA - The black belt is now blue (midnight blue, like TSD)

Actually we will introduce these new uniforms next month at the World Poomsae Championships in Vladivostok Russia! Cannot wait to wear mine.

http://www.jcalicu.com/JCALICUS_POOMSAE_files/%202011poomsae.pdf

Have fun!


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## StudentCarl (Jun 17, 2011)

I remember seeing pictures of guys working out in their underwear before the development of the gi. For me a kick is still a kick, and a stance the same, but the drama this creates should be entertaining...something to talk about at least. As a sparring athlete you know that both my short coat and outer jacket will be down to my knees to hide my leg movement! Thanks for sharing this.

Carl


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## Archtkd (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> So get ready for some real change! Coming to a Dojang near you..A new taekwondo rank structure, now with meaning and new colors, plus new uniforms! EXTRA - The black belt is now blue (midnight blue, like TSD)
> 
> Actually we will introduce these new uniforms next month at the World Poomsae Championships in Vladivostok Russia! Cannot wait to wear mine.
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting. Was there Kukkiwon input, collaboration and cooperation on the design, or was this an entirely WTF project? Will the new uniforms be mandatory at all international WTF events? Will the same uniforms be used in Kyorugi? Is the overcoat a ceremonial part of the uniform?


On a side note it's also interesting that the WTF classifies GM as 7th Dan up, which I thought it should be until I saw some postings on MT which say the Kukkiwon considers GM grade begins at 6th Dan and up.


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## ATC (Jun 17, 2011)

Yeah this was posted to my facebook account a few weeks back. It really means nothing unless they are going to mandate this for events. A couple of the uni's look pretty cool.


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## msmitht (Jun 17, 2011)

Hmmm. Very interesting. Will kukkiwon support this? Is this new for all of us or just international players? Is this just for poomsae?


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## terryl965 (Jun 17, 2011)

Is this set in stone and if so will this be mandatory at all events?


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## andyjeffries (Jun 17, 2011)

Interesting in that document they refer to 1st-3rd Dan as Master, 4th-6th Dan as Instructor Master and 7th-9th Dan as Grandmaster.  Also interesting is that they translate Master as Sabeom (I though Sabeom was technically the term for a KKW certified Master Instructor, although everyone uses it just for an instructor).

That aside - I hate the new Kup colours (probably because I'm used to the old ones), but I like the overcoat, I think that looks really cool and I've never been a fan of wraparound uniforms.

I'm also interested in the Kukkiwon's thoughts as I'm more of a Kukki-Taekwondoin than a WTF Taekwondo Player (poomsae or kyorugi)...


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

Right now, they are calling it a Poomsae Uniform.  They told us about this a couple of years ago but they are making us wear them this year.


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 17, 2011)

From someone obviously not in the federation: 



New uniforms, new belts and ranking = more money spent by the practitioner
Are there to be new requirements also for the new ranks?


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## ATACX GYM (Jun 17, 2011)

ATC said:


> Yeah this was posted to my facebook account a few weeks back. It really means nothing unless they are going to mandate this for events. A couple of the uni's look pretty cool.


 

Pretty much my thoughts too.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Right now, they are calling it a Poomsae Uniform.  They told us about this a couple of years ago but they are making us wear them this year.



But why change gup holder's belt colours and dobok if WTF Poomsae Competitions require dan grades to participate?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

When the new Taekwondo Park is opened all will be known!  This is NOT just for competition folks.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

So does this mean every KKW TKD BB will have to wear a midnight blue belt? I already had a blue belt. I don't want another one. In fact I'm pretty much gonna go ahead and say I am not wearing a blue belt instead of my black belt. I don't do TSD, KKW TKD is supposed to use the black belt, and they're trying to have us become something we're not. I'm also not wearing a housecoat over my dobok. 

I see this as an attempt to regain face. They're compromising what Kukki TaeKwonDo _is_.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

tshadowchaser said:


> New uniforms, new belts and ranking = more money spent by the practitioner Are there to be new requirements also for the new ranks?



If I were at USAT, I would keep it the way it is now, white dobok, with the possible exception at Poomsae Team Trials. Competition is already expensive enough as it is.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> If I were at USAT, I would keep it the way it is now, white dobok, with the possible exception at Poomsae Team Trials. Competition is already expensive enough as it is.



Plus those dobok's look _really_ stupid. I would not want to wear that.


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## Carol (Jun 17, 2011)

What is the point of isolating the women from the men?  

Considering TKD is known for having lapel trim to match the belts and so forth, having the women in an outfit that is less-uniform in color than the men looks odd to my eyes.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Interesting in that document they refer to 1st-3rd Dan as Master, 4th-6th Dan as Instructor Master and 7th-9th Dan as Grandmaster.  Also interesting is that they translate Master as Sabeom (I though Sabeom was technically the term for a KKW certified Master Instructor, although everyone uses it just for an instructor).



So everyone is on the same page, these are the new titles:

1-3 Dan: Sabum (Master)
4-6 Dan: Jido Sabum (Instructor Master)
7-9 Dan: Dae Sabum (Grandmaster).




andyjeffries said:


> That aside - I hate the new Kup colours (probably because I'm used to the old ones), but I like the overcoat, I think that looks really cool and I've never been a fan of wraparound uniforms.



The guep color belt system is different from what seems to be the standard in US dojang, which is white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown, red, black (or some derivative of that). 

The overcoat looks like a Kuk Sool or Hwa Rang Do uniform.




andyjeffries said:


> I'm also interested in the Kukkiwon's thoughts as I'm more of a Kukki-Taekwondoin than a WTF Taekwondo Player (poomsae or kyorugi)...



I can say that the new uniform colors contradicts some of the stuff taught at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course, at least the one I attend, wherein they told us that colored uniforms, patches, etc. were for children to keep them motivated, but that instructors and leaders don't need such outward displays and that we should all wear plain white dobok and no stripe or indications of rank on our belts.

But it seems like WTF, in partnership with TPF, are calling the shots at the moment. The Kukkiwon, under President Kang, seems to follow WTF's lead, so I would predict that the Kukkiwon would go along with these WTF ideas and adjust the Kukkiwon Instructor Course and probably the Textbook accordingly in the near future.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> When the new Taekwondo Park is opened all will be known!  This is NOT just for competition folks.



There you go. TPF. 

I can't see requiring the overcoat for kyorugi competitors or for regular dojang students either. That doesn't make sense. But if what you say is true, no more v necks, I better stock up now. so that I have a 40 year supply....


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

I am convinced someone has decided they want to completely piss me off and that's the only motivation behind this. This is stupid.

*Deep breath*

This probably won't even affect my school. If it does, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But I'm not wearing a house coat or a blue belt. Why again do we need to look like TSD?


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> A new taekwondo rank structure, now with meaning




What does that mean?


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

It means someone has decided to rewrite things again just because he got bored of yellow, green, blue and red. None of this actually means anything.


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## troubleenuf (Jun 17, 2011)

Exactly... One more guy who wants to "leave his mark" on TKD and since they screwed up patterns recently he couldnt do that again so he went with this.  



ETinCYQX said:


> It means someone has decided to rewrite things again just because he got bored of yellow, green, blue and red. None of this actually means anything.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Exactly... One more guy who wants to "leave his mark" on TKD and since they screwed up patterns recently he couldnt do that again so he went with this.



I must have picked on somebody at the KKW in elementary school or something. They seem intent on causing me to have a coronary.


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## terryl965 (Jun 17, 2011)

_A new taekwondo rank structure, now with meaning _

Can you expand on this Master Southwick.


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## Markku P (Jun 17, 2011)

Perhaps someone can explain what this all means? ( New belt colours, uniforms etc. )
Who has made Decision? When and where? When it will be official? This is not a joke?:fanboy:

/Markku P.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

Also this is not "evolution". Right now, my opinion on what it is is somewhere between "catering to people who the KKW shouldn't care about" to "An evil plot designed purely to make me angry".


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

Actually, it is evolution; it is the continuation of Koreanizing taekwondo.  It is their art and now the uniform looks like a hanbok.  The newly assigned colors, symbols and philosophical meanings are all in line with Korean ways of thought.  I would say it is very distinguished from other martial arts (karate) thus creating a unique identity.  Plus, it seems so organized this way.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

So is it going to be mandatory in KKW dojangs?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

On the other hand assigning meanings that were not actually intended to established systems is wrong. That is what gave us some of the biggest myths in martial arts today:

(1) The belt colors come from wearing your belt so much that it changes colors because of your blood, sweat and tears, thus turning black (basically from dirt). What a joke, no Asian culture would even allow the wearing of some dirty garment.

(2) The colors were picked to represent your journey (they do actually for white and black) yellow is the sun, green is the grass, blue is the sky and red danger (red used to be brown). Although a wonderful metaphor the belt colors are not really designed that way. Kano, who invented the belt system, for judo used red as the highest color not black. (Free attaboy to whomever can answer why that is  hint: it has to do with Japanese culture)

Creating a philosophical base line or paradigm that destroys another on which it was actually based is a really dangerous action. Cleansing (destroying) or evolving? 


In answer to your query,
One thing I love about the kukkiwon: they do not tell you how to run your show.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

troubleenuf said:


> Exactly... One more guy who wants to "leave his mark" on TKD and since they screwed up patterns recently he couldnt do that again so he went with this.




Can you explain a little more about what you mean by "they screwed up patterns recently"? Who is "they"?


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> On the other hand assigning meanings that were not actually intended to established systems is wrong. That is what gave us some of the biggest myths in martial arts today:
> 
> (1) The belt colors come from wearing your belt so much that it changes colors because of your blood, sweat and tears, thus turning black (basically from dirt). What a joke, no Asian culture would even allow the wearing of some dirty garment.
> (2) The color represent your journey (they do actually for white and black) yellow is the sun, green is the grass, blue is the sky and red danger (red used to be brown). Although a wonderful metaphor the belt colors are not really designed that way. Kano, who invented the belt system, for judo used red as the highest color not black. (Free attaboy to whomever can answer why that is  hint: it has to do with Japanese culture)
> ...



I'm afraid I was (unintentionally) a bit abrasive, you have my apology for that Mr. (Master?) Southwick. 

I'm of the belief that TKD owes more to Karate than to TSD and I don't personally believe approaching TSD is good for TKD. I think the white v neck dobok, black collar, black belt are too much a part of TKD now to replace, even if it is more Korean. 

So far as Judo belts go, I know red represents a warning or danger. That's the best explanation I can offer.


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## Archtkd (Jun 17, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> So is it going to be mandatory in KKW dojangs?



What do you mean? A dojang controlled or owned by the Kukkiwon? No such thing exists, unless you are talking about the organizations' own facility in Korea. If you are talking about dojangs that practice Kukkiwon style Taekwondo that's another story: The Kukkiwon is not and has never been in the business of managing or overseeing Taekwondo businesses, clubs non-profits, basement/garage studios, etc.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> (2) The color represent your journey (they do actually for white and black) yellow is the sun, green is the grass, blue is the sky and red danger (red used to be brown). Although a wonderful metaphor the belt colors are not really designed that way. Kano, who invented the belt system, for judo used red as the highest color not black. (Free attaboy to whomever can answer why that is  hint: it has to do with Japanese culture)




Red isn't the highest color in Judo, white is, the 12th Dan double white belt for Kano Sensei. Also metaphor you give above isn't the way I learned it. I learned it as black meant the universe which is higher or farther than the sun, red meant the sun, which is higher than the blue sky, which is higher than green grass or green leaves on a tree, which is higher than yellow or gold ore in the ground. And red was the original guep level color from the 1940s. So says GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the earliest Kwan.


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## Markku P (Jun 17, 2011)

So this might be a new belt system? (geup)

9.geup white 
8.geup ivory  
7.geup yellow  
6.geup light gold
5. geup green 
4. geup blue 
3.geup orange 
2.geup purple 
1.geup red 

..no stripes?

I know every school can decide them self but I just wondering..

/Markku


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> What do you mean? A dojang controlled or owned by the Kukkiwon? No such thing exists, unless you are talking about the organizations' own facility in Korea. If you are talking about dojangs that practice Kukkiwon style Taekwondo that's another story: The Kukkiwon is not and has never been in the business of managing or overseeing Taekwondo businesses, clubs non-profits, basement/garage studios, etc.



I wanted to know if I had to use them in my school and if I'll need them for competition. Thanks.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Actually, it is evolution; it is the continuation of Koreanizing taekwondo.  It is their art and now the uniform looks like a hanbok.




The v neck dobok also looks like a hanbok, which is why it was developed in the first place.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

Carol said:


> What is the point of isolating the women from the men?




I don't think Title VII or Title IX was taken into consideration. I do know that there are anti-discrimination clauses in the Olympic Charter, but that may apply only to actual competition issues, and not uniform issues. Male and female gymnasts for example, wear different clothing for competition.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> Red isn't the highest color in Judo, white is, the 12th Dan double white belt for Kano Sensei. Also metaphor you give above isn't the way I learned it. I learned it as black meant the universe which is higher or farther than the sun, red meant the sun, which is higher than the blue sky, which is higher than green grass or green leaves on a tree, which is higher than yellow or gold ore in the ground. And red was the original guep level color from the 1940s. So says GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the earliest Kwan.


 
Basically, Red is the highest in Judo. Lets stop at judan please. Those judoka deserve a new white belt!


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Basically, Red is the highest in Judo. Lets stop at judan please.



Basically, red is not the highest; double white belt is. And let's not stop at judan please; instead let us go for historical accuracy and recognize that Judo has a 12th Dan ranking, represented by a double white belt, for Kano Sensei.


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## Poomsaeguy (Jun 17, 2011)

It's all good!


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

Poomsaeguy said:


> It's all good!


 
And so are you brother!


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## Tony49 (Jun 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> So everyone is on the same page, these are the new titles:
> 
> 1-3 Dan: Sabum (Master)
> 4-6 Dan: Jido Sabum (Instructor Master)
> 7-9 Dan: Dae Sabum (Grandmaster).



So how would address a Jido Sabum?  Example only As Hi Jido Sabumnim Puunui


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## andyjeffries (Jun 17, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> This probably won't even affect my school. If it does, I'll cross that bridge when I get there. But I'm not wearing a house coat or a blue belt. Why again do we need to look like TSD?



I think that while the belt looks blue in the diagrams, the text above says black belt for dan holder and in the photographs it looks black (to my eyes).  I'm not a great fan of the trigram on the sleeve though...


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## andyjeffries (Jun 17, 2011)

puunui said:


> The guep color belt system is different from what seems to be the standard in US dojang, which is white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown, red, black (or some derivative of that).



Not to hijack the thread, but I was stunned when you said that.  I always assumed that most dojangs everywhere follow white, yellow-tag/stripe, yellow, green-tag/stripe, green, blue-tag/stripe, blue, red-tag/stripe, red, black-tag/stripe, black belt.  I know some prefer brown to red, but I still thought they were in a minority.

So I'm stunned that the standard or as you wrote "seems" at least a very common configuration includes orange and purple belts...  I've never seen a Taekwondoin wearing those colours.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

As far as colors go, I remember having an orange belt. And a purple. But my first few years were outside the WTF. 



andyjeffries said:


> I think that while the belt looks blue in the diagrams, the text above says black belt for dan holder and in the photographs it looks black (to my eyes).  I'm not a great fan of the trigram on the sleeve though...



Right. Cool.


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## Kacey (Jun 17, 2011)

tshadowchaser said:


> From someone obviously not in the federation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I agree.  And what's the purpose behind a different color for men and  women?  Are people having that much trouble seeing gender differences?  



puunui said:


> The guep color belt system is different from what seems to be the standard in US dojang, which is white, yellow, orange, green, purple, blue, brown, red, black (or some derivative of that).



It's never been the system in any dojang I've studied in, and I started in 1987.  When my instructor's instructor started, in 1965, the colors were white, yellow, green, brown, black - and that was it.  Later, when he was a brown belt, the system was reworked to white, yellow, green, blue, red, black - which caused him to have to re-test for red (he had been a brown belt at the time).  Perhaps you should look at some Ch'ang H'on dojangs before speaking for all TKD practitioners in the US.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I think that while the belt looks blue in the diagrams, the text above says black belt for dan holder and in the photographs it looks black (to my eyes).  I'm not a great fan of the trigram on the sleeve though...



My apologies... On page 300 it says blue-black, on page 600 it says traditional black.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 17, 2011)

Kacey said:


> It's never been the system in any dojang I've studied in, and I started in 1987.  When my instructor's instructor started, in 1965, the colors were white, yellow, green, brown, black - and that was it.  Later, when he was a brown belt, the system was reworked to white, yellow, green, blue, red, black - which caused him to have to re-test for red (he had been a brown belt at the time).  Perhaps you should look at some Ch'ang H'on dojangs before speaking for all TKD practitioners in the US.



Even assuming Puunui is only referring to Kukki-Taekwondo dojang, it's still pulled the rug out from under me ;-)

I tend to think of KKW first and others as an afterthought, but apparently I share a Gup belt system with the ITF...


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## mastercole (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> So get ready for some real change! Coming to a Dojang near you&#8230;..A new taekwondo rank structure, now with meaning and new colors, plus new uniforms!  EXTRA - The black belt is now blue (midnight blue, like TSD)
> 
> Actually we will introduce these new uniforms next month at the World Poomsae Championships in Vladivostok Russia! Cannot wait to wear mine.
> 
> ...



I don't know if the WTF has actually made a final decision as of yet. In their WTF World Poomsae packet, they leave it open as a possibility, stating something like if it is decided, the New Poomsae Competition Uniforms will be provided for free.

If they decide to have everyone wear one, it will be interesting to see the responses.


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## Archtkd (Jun 17, 2011)

Does the WTF vote on stuff like this?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

mastercole said:


> I don't know if the WTF has actually made a final decision as of yet. In their WTF World Poomsae packet, they leave it open as a possibility, stating something like if it is decided, the New Poomsae Competition Uniforms will be provided for free.
> 
> If they decide to have everyone wear one, it will be interesting to see the responses.



Yes, at this time it's us that test it out. They are providing the uniforms to us. It's if we get to keep them that will be up in the air, lol.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I tend to think of KKW first and others as an afterthought, but apparently I share a Gup belt system with the ITF...




Actually they share it with us.


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## puunui (Jun 17, 2011)

Kacey said:


> When my instructor's instructor started, in 1965, the colors were white, yellow, green, brown, black - and that was it.




Really. When my instructor's instructor started, in 1944, the colors were white, red, black - and that was it.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Yes, at this time it's us that test it out. They are providing the uniforms to us. It's if we get to keep them that will be up in the air, lol.



So this is only a poomsae thing?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> So this is only a poomsae thing?




Well, I would not say that. We shall see.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

That's what I'm afraid of...


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## MSUTKD (Jun 17, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> That's what I'm afraid of...




Don't be, the Kukkiwon does not tell people how to run their clubs or schools.


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## ETinCYQX (Jun 17, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Don't be, the Kukkiwon does not tell people how to run their clubs or schools.



No, but my superiors do. I don't see them forcing this on me though. 

To be honest, I'm a bit change-phobic plus I believe in/prefer the black belt over the midnight blue. Just my preference. Plus, honestly, I like my new Adidas dobok and belt too much to retire them that soon...


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## Miles (Jun 17, 2011)

I think the new uniforms may draw more attention to poomsae competition at least initially.  That's a good thing as these are dedicated athletes.  But the beauty of the poomsae and the athleticism of the performers should be the main emphasis, not the color of the dobok.


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## mastercole (Jun 18, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Yes, at this time it's us that test it out. They are providing the uniforms to us. It's if we get to keep them that will be up in the air, lol.



Have you been told by anyone that teams will be wearing them for sure?  The information packet states they don't know yet.


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## msmitht (Jun 18, 2011)

Master southwick,
Been a while since chicago. I went to korea for the REAL kkw sa bum course in 2009; Very different. 
Congrats on your success btw. 
Questions for you:
1. Do you know if this will be a mandatory new dobok? Just for poomsae or will the kkw tkd academy enforce it as well? (I know that the wtf & kkw do not always agree( I.e. poomsae))
2. What does gm Yoon think about it?
3. Do tou think david will make the usat enforce the new dobok?
4. The new dan ranking calls for 1-3rd dan as sa bum, 4-6 as sook sa sa bum and kwang jang for 7-9th. My korean friends call a school owner kwang jang nim, a reference to the head of a school. While I refuse to let any of my students call me this, is it correct? I am asking because of your knowledge of the language.
Ty in advance.


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## puunui (Jun 18, 2011)

msmitht said:


> 4. The new dan ranking calls for 1-3rd dan as sa bum, 4-6 as sook sa sa bum and kwang jang for 7-9th.



That's not what the new dan ranking calls for. 4-6 Dan is Jido Sabum (like jidoja yunsuwon) and 7-9 dan is dae sabum. And I think you mean soo suk instead of sooksa, and kwan jang instead of kwangjang. The kwan in kwan jang is the same character as Kwan, like jidokwan, moo duk kwan, etc.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> That's not what the new dan ranking calls for. 4-6 Dan is Jido Sabum (like jidoja yunsuwon) and 7-9 dan is dae sabum. And I think you mean soo suk instead of sooksa, and kwan jang instead of kwangjang. The kwan in kwan jang is the same character as Kwan, like jidokwan, moo duk kwan, etc.



And I think Kwanjang is now clearer as "Head of School" as Grandmaster is Daesabum.  Kwanjang was often (mis-)used as Grandmaster in the past.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 18, 2011)

msmitht said:
			
		

> Questions for you:
> 1. Do you know if this will be a mandatory new dobok? Just for poomsae or will the kkw tkd academy enforce it as well? (I know that the wtf & kkw do not always agree( I.e. poomsae))
> 2. What does gm Yoon think about it?
> 3. Do tou think david will make the usat enforce the new dobok?
> ...



Mr. Smith,

Even though that instructor course was crap, meeting you and the others was AWESOME!

1.  They want Taekwondo to get a facelift. If you really dig you can see what is behind this. Right now they are going to showcase this at the Poomsae World's. There will be and is resistance but with change there always is. I would be more concerned with their motif for changing. The history that the Taekwondo seniors came up with is a good example, it was fabricated. Their reasons however might be understood if you lived through occupation. Doing the wrong thing, for whatever reason is bad.  This appears to be a push Taekwondo wide (WTF and Kukkiwon). It is politics and ego that have keep the WTF and Kukkiwon from really working together, maybe they are starting too. (save comments about the WTF/Kukkiwon for some other thread please)

2.  I do not know what some of the old masters think but I will ask them, in person, next month. I am sure you will get a mix. 

3. I do not think that the USAT really cares about the uniform we wear for poomsae but, some of the US Poomsae coordinators might and they are the ones who will make it happen if it does.  It will take a few years here, heck we still use paper scoring in poomsae, lol.

4.  This has always been a little misunderstood. Usually when you get 4th dan you are called sabum, that hanja means "teacher of teachers", which is why it fit for someone who was now allowed to promote someone to yudanja, holder of black belt. I will PM you the translations for these new terms, they just simplified it nicely. 

As I titled this thread evolution, I believe it is. I may not like it personally but in a way this is going to help well, take out the trash. More to come on that later too!


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2011)

Master Southwick let me ask this of you, How do you see this as helping?

What do you mean take out the trash?

What steps are being done to bring the WTF and KKW together?

Last thing will this be a means to those instructors out there looking for more legitimate instructor or seniors to help guide them though there journey? I mean we have so many mis-guided people out there including me. Sometimes I feel I am in a ship all by myself when it comes to getting more in depth knowledge of my art. So many peole have so many different takes on events, training and interpitation of the art/sport?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 18, 2011)

Terry,

Get on the mat and train, that is the only course here.   There are those people that talk and profess and those that do, period. The people I work with, train with and compete with are all doers not talkers. I am on the mat with 8th dans and 7th dans that make me feel like a white belt, they sir are doers. They can kick, punch and SHOW you what Taekwondo is.  Your training and work ethic has nothing to do with the Kukkiwon, WTF and USAT. Go practice your side kick, that is what I am going to do today.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 18, 2011)

This is what I believe the hanja, if there is any, lol, and meaning to be. I could really be wrong here and perhaps Master Cole can ask his house guest if I am actually learning to get this right.

*&#51648;&#46020;&#49324;&#48276; (&#25351;&#23566;&#24107;&#31684;)*
Jido sabum  Leader or Guiding Teacher of Teachers
&#51648; (&#25351;) - Pointing
&#46020; (&#23566;) - Guide
&#49324; (&#24107;) - Teacher
&#48276; (&#31684;) - Pattern


*&#45824;&#49324;&#48276; (&#22823;&#24107;&#31684;)*
Dae sabum  Greater Teacher of Teachers
&#45824; (&#22823;) - Greater
&#49324; (&#24107;) - Teacher
&#48276; (&#31684;) - Pattern


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## puunui (Jun 18, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> And I think Kwanjang is now clearer as "Head of School" as Grandmaster is Daesabum.  Kwanjang was often (mis-)used as Grandmaster in the past.



Jido sabum and Dae sabum are new terms. I never heard those used before. In Hapkido, Chong Kwan Jang was used for Grandmaster (this was GM Ji's title in the KHA) and Kwan Jang was considered Master. Titles were not automatic though, and there was a separate KHA Certificate of Qualification given for Sabum, Kwan Jang, etc. in addition to dan rank.


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## puunui (Jun 18, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I would be more concerned with their motif for changing. The history that the Taekwondo seniors came up with is a good example, it was fabricated. Their reasons however might be understood if you lived through occupation. Doing the wrong thing, for whatever reason is bad.




Whenever I read statement like this, that history was "fabricated", it raises a very large red flag for me, because it usually means that the person making such a statement, especially a Taekwondoin, did not take the time to understand what was being said, why and in what context. Usually the process goes like this: "Taekwondo comes from karate, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Hwa Rang. Therefore any history quoting these sources is a lie." The funny thing is, if you speak with any of the "Taekwondo seniors", they will all tell you that their teachers all learned Karate in Japan. That is no big secret. 

But assume that is true, which it is, that the Taekwondo pioneers learned from people who studied Karate in Japan. How do you then explain the emphasis on kicking in not only Taekwondo, but Hapkido and other Korean Martial Arts as well? Where did that come from? Karate? Japan? I think not. Did the emphasis on kicking have something to do with living through the Japanese Occupation? Again, I think not. So where did it come from? 

But over and above that, the red flag for me is not so much the issue of historical accuracy of the position stated above, but more so the attitude and stance taken with respect to one's seniors. Once you start thinking of your seniors as liars, it sets in motion a chain reaction of other negative attitudes (such as ingratitude) towards not only those seniors, but all seniors in general.


----------



## Makalakumu (Jun 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Whenever I read statement like this, that history was "fabricated", it raises a very large red flag for me, because it usually means that the person making such a statement, especially a Taekwondoin, did not take the time to understand what was being said, why and in what context. Usually the process goes like this: "Taekwondo comes from karate, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Hwa Rang. Therefore any history quoting these sources is a lie." The funny thing is, if you speak with any of the "Taekwondo seniors", they will all tell you that their teachers all learned Karate in Japan. That is no big secret.
> 
> But assume that is true, which it is, that the Taekwondo pioneers learned from people who studied Karate in Japan. How do you then explain the emphasis on kicking in not only Taekwondo, but Hapkido and other Korean Martial Arts as well? Where did that come from? Karate? Japan? I think not. Did the emphasis on kicking have something to do with living through the Japanese Occupation? Again, I think not. So where did it come from?
> 
> But over and above that, the red flag for me is not so much the issue of historical accuracy of the position stated above, but more so the attitude and stance taken with respect to one's seniors. Once you start thinking of your seniors as liars, it sets in motion a chain reaction of other negative attitudes (such as ingratitude) towards not only those seniors, but all seniors in general.



I don't know about that.  I feel a great sense of gratitude toward my seniors because they provided a venue for me to practice martial arts.  Maybe I would have found a different art to practice, but I wouldn't have had the same gifted instructors I did have in that circumstance.  That said, the history of our art was misrepresented in the case of my KMA lineage.

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm



> I once asked that question directly of Hwang Kee's son, Hwang Hyun Chu], director of the United States Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation. The answer was the  standard one: "My father brought [them] back from China." I pressed the  point, saying that this simply could not be true. The forms were not  Chinese; they were Okinawan in origin. The fact that this was common  knowledge to students of Japanese and Okinawan karate had led to more  than one rumor that Hwang Kee had traveled to Japan or Okinawa and  learned the forms there. One myth even claimed that he had spent a few  months in Okinawa studying shorin-ryu and goju-ryu karate. When I  pursued the issue, Hwang Hyun Chul politely thanked me for calling and  said good-bye.



Some people did misrepresent the history.  Not everyone, but some people really did do it.


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## terrylamar (Jun 18, 2011)

Does anyone know where these uniforms can be purchased?  There is conntact information on their website for the Overseas Marketing Manager with a Retail Partner listed for New York as Olivia Kim, but with no conntact information.

I might want to purchase one uniform for myself.  The more I look at it, the more it grows on me.


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## puunui (Jun 18, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> I don't know about that.  I feel a great sense of gratitude toward my seniors because they provided a venue for me to practice martial arts.  Maybe I would have found a different art to practice, but I wouldn't have had the same gifted instructors I did have in that circumstance.  That said, the history of our art was misrepresented in the case of my KMA lineage.
> 
> http://www.usadojo.com/articles/tang-soo-do-forms.htm
> 
> Some people did misrepresent the history.  Not everyone, but some people really did do it.



Maybe Master HC Hwang simply doesn't know. He wasn't training when his father was learning those forms from GM HYUN Jong Myun at the Seoul Station where they both worked during the mid 1940's.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Whenever I read statement like this, that history was "fabricated", it raises a very large red flag for me, because it usually means that the person making such a statement, especially a Taekwondoin, did not take the time to understand what was being said, why and in what context. Usually the process goes like this: "Taekwondo comes from karate, not Taekkyon, Subak or the Hwa Rang. Therefore any history quoting these sources is a lie." The funny thing is, if you speak with any of the "Taekwondo seniors", they will all tell you that their teachers all learned Karate in Japan. That is no big secret.
> 
> But assume that is true, which it is, that the Taekwondo pioneers learned from people who studied Karate in Japan. How do you then explain the emphasis on kicking in not only Taekwondo, but Hapkido and other Korean Martial Arts as well? Where did that come from? Karate? Japan? I think not. Did the emphasis on kicking have something to do with living through the Japanese Occupation? Again, I think not. So where did it come from?
> 
> But over and above that, the red flag for me is not so much the issue of historical accuracy of the position stated above, but more so the attitude and stance taken with respect to one's seniors. Once you start thinking of your seniors as liars, it sets in motion a chain reaction of other negative attitudes (such as ingratitude) towards not only those seniors, but all seniors in general.



Forgive me sir but ad nauseum. Hopefully back to evolution!


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## puunui (Jun 18, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Forgive me sir but ad nauseum. Hopefully back to evolution!



Maybe to you but not to others who for decades have been doing the work you just started doing only recently. I would think you would be interested in historical discussion, given what you wrote above. And this is about evolution; I am responding to a post you wrote.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 18, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe to you but not to others who for decades have been doing the work you just started doing only recently. I would think you would be interested in historical discussion, given what you wrote above. And this is about evolution; I am responding to a post you wrote.



Okay, I will "feed the trolls" so to speak.  I may have only 30 some years in and about 20 of real research but I try.  Only the Chinese is new, 2005 I think, but language is not. Facts are not facts just because they are in a book or just because somebody says it is true, I know that you understand that (maybe more than most here because of your job). The difference here is that I am trying to understand and actually learn and share. I am not I interested in regurgitation of dogma but if as a Taekwondo person you would like to add constructive insight I would be honored to listen and respond.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Terry,
> 
> Get on the mat and train, that is the only course here. There are those people that talk and profess and those that do, period. The people I work with, train with and compete with are all doers not talkers. I am on the mat with 8th dans and 7th dans that make me feel like a white belt, they sir are doers. They can kick, punch and SHOW you what Taekwondo is. Your training and work ethic has nothing to do with the Kukkiwon, WTF and USAT. Go practice your side kick, that is what I am going to do today.


 
I do train everyday with my team and my TKD family.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 18, 2011)

I know you do Terry. That was meant to be motivational for all not a specific statement toward you sir.


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## terryl965 (Jun 18, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I know you do Terry. That was meant to be motivational for all not a specific statement toward you sir.


 
I know sir and I respect you and everything you have to say.


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## puunui (Jun 18, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I am not I interested in regurgitation of dogma but if as a Taekwondo person you would like to add constructive insight I would be honored to listen and respond.



You first. What did you mean when you said that our Taekwondo history is a lie? And what is the factual basis of your statement?


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## Makalakumu (Jun 19, 2011)

puunui said:


> Maybe Master HC Hwang simply doesn't know. He wasn't training when his father was learning those forms from GM HYUN Jong Myun at the Seoul Station where they both worked during the mid 1940's.



That might be the case.  I have never met, Master HC Hwang.  I don't know him or know of his character.  I only know what my seniors have said, about discussions they have had on the matter, and their observations.  Based on those data points, the story really does become clear.  Our former Federation wanted to highlight the Chinese origins of the art and even went so far as to say that Hwang Kee learned the hyung he taught in China.  I don't know if you know Master Jay S. Penfil.  He was a member of this board and is very knowledgeable about this.  He trained with Master C.I. Kim and was promoted to chil dan.  He knew everyone involved in the process of obfuscation and discovery, including the person who wrote the linked article, Master John Hancock.  When it comes to this matter, if you really want to get into the gory details, contact him.

So, yeah, I don't think this is an all or nothing game.  Some of the old masters were very open about their lineage and others were not...at least not until more recent times.


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## puunui (Jun 19, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> He knew everyone involved in the process of obfuscation and discovery, including the person who wrote the linked article, Master John Hancock.  When it comes to this matter, if you really want to get into the gory details, contact him.



I know John Hancock. I was the one who he learned that GM HWANG Kee was a member of the Chung Do Kwan and whose rank was 6th guep, White Belt. This was ten or fifteen years ago. He kind of went to town after that and tried unsuccessfully to get the Soo Bahk Do Hwe to admit the "truth". At the time it was radical information, but today, everyone sort of accepts it, the Moo Duk Kwan/Chung Do Kwan connection. You can tell there is a connection simply by looking at the logos of the respective Kwan. The Moo Duk Kwan symbol is derivative of the Chung Do Kwan symbol.


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## puunui (Jun 19, 2011)

Tony49 said:


> So how would address a Jido Sabum?  Example only As Hi Jido Sabumnim Puunui



As Tony Jidosabum or Tony Jidosabumnim or Jidosabumnim, depending on whether you are senior or junior. I suppose it would also be ok to simply say Sabumnim. I still call some of my teachers that.


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## puunui (Jun 19, 2011)

Oh, and PS:



MSUTKD said:


> Okay, I will "feed the trolls" so to speak.




Someone told me they thought your comment above was kind of humorous, given your earlier statement below:



MSUTKD said:


> So,  over 200 reads but not much banter from the peanut gallery, hmm. Let me  try to fan the fire a bit; remember that when I write the next few  thoughts.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 19, 2011)

I never said that I don't troll!  Why do you think I'm here? Lol Teach them to fish. 

P.S.  Check that other thread later, I will be "troll O rama", that's my word by the way.


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> This is what I believe the hanja, if there is any, lol, and meaning to be. I could really be wrong here and perhaps Master Cole can ask his house guest if I am actually learning to get this right.
> 
> *&#51648;&#46020;&#49324;&#48276; (&#25351;&#23566;&#24107;&#31684;)*
> Jido sabum  Leader or Guiding Teacher of Teachers
> ...




I asked him.  In the best English he could muster, he commented as follows:

- These seem like new combined terms as he never heard them before
- Sabum as used in everyday Korean refers to a martial arts teacher
- When you say "sabum" a Taekwondo teacher automatically comes to mind
- Korean's do not think of Sabum as a "teacher of teachers" even if you can find it in Hanja
- ****you have to also know the intended meaning that Hanja was selected for.
This means you have to find out from the people who selected it as Hanja has radically 
different meanings
- Jido Sabum in this situation seems to him to mean "Lead Instructor" or "Chief Instructor",
but again, he said you would have to ask the people who selected the term to find it's 
intended meaning


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> 2.  I do not know what some of the old masters think but I will ask them, in person, next month. I am sure you will get a mix.



Which old masters in Korea will you be asking?


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> The history that the Taekwondo seniors came up with is a good example, it was fabricated. Their reasons however might be understood if you lived through occupation. Doing the wrong thing, for whatever reason is bad.



Recently you stated to me that the Kukkiwon made a spelling error, and just does not want to admit it, that is why they changed the Hangul from poomsae, to poomsae.  Do you still believe this?

Now you have stated that Taekwondo seniors (your seniors or my seniors?) fabricated Taekwondo history.  What are the names of the senors that fabricated Taekwondo history?
What specific history was fabricated?

Also, has anyone told you yet if the teams at Poomsae World Championships will be wearing the new uniforms?


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

Ron and Puunui, I'd like to take this discussion onto Taekwondo-net.  We have thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin that would like to see this discussion.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 19, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Also, has anyone told you yet if the teams at Poomsae World Championships will be wearing the new uniforms?


 
Yes we will wear them, at least that is what we were told. They asked for sizes.


Sir, I hope to get to your other questions soon. I am glad you are here because I will need you on my next post. Stand by, I have to pull stuff from that old paper I wrote.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 19, 2011)

mastercole said:


> - ****you have to also know the intended meaning that Hanja was selected for.
> This means you have to find out from the people who selected it as Hanja has radically
> different meanings


 

Thanks, I guess I am learning that cool. 

Actually hanja very rarely has a disrupted meaning.  But agreed that my translations are a bit literal, I do this on purpose for the reader who has no idea about how the characters work.


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## terryl965 (Jun 19, 2011)

OK I am one of those that really do not understand Hanja translation, but I thought it always had a general meaning. I see where you Master Southwick said you are using a literal one on purpose to get to some people. While I guess I understand this could you also give the general meaning as well so some of us could possible and actually learn something with these threads?

I am really interested in learning also you said find a Korean to help me in my area, should I be looking for a older one or will a college student be the same?


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> OK I am one of those that really do not understand Hanja translation, but I thought it always had a general meaning. I see where you Master Southwick said you are using a literal one on purpose to get to some people. While I guess I understand this could you also give the general meaning as well so some of us could possible and actually learn something with these threads?
> 
> I am really interested in learning also you said find a Korean to help me in my area, should I be looking for a older one or will a college student be the same?



On today's internet you can easily translation Traditional Chinese characters.  Save this site:
http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php

There many other sites like it, but keep in mind we are talking about KOREAN use of these terms, not exactly CHINESE, thought they are often the same.  So it is good to supplement your CHINESE Word & Character dictionary with an "Everyday Hanja" reference as well. 

Now you to can be a Hanja Master!


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Thanks, I guess I am learning that cool.
> 
> Actually hanja very rarely has a disrupted meaning.  But agreed that my translations are a bit literal, I do this on purpose for the reader who has no idea about how the characters work.



In the case of the word "poomse" we have radically different meanings. Imagine a guy with an odd agenda trying to translate the old terms "poom" and "se" and selecting these meanings from the official CHINESE translations from the CHINESE / English dictionary:

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=1&wdqtm=0&wdqcham=1&wdqt=勢

&#21697;	p&#464;n	 grade / to taste / to sample / to criticize / to judge / to size up

&#21218;	shì    outward appearance / male genitals

Brings a whole new meaning to "Poomse" competition!


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## MSUTKD (Jun 19, 2011)

Using the internet to translate is sure to give funny results, lol. There are actually rules that keep the misunderstanding from happening. That sir, is a whole other discussion and that would put us all to sleep. You will NOT be a hanja master from using the internet but it can be a good tool.


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Using the internet to translate is sure to give funny results, lol. There are actually rules that keep the misunderstanding from happening. That sir, is a whole other discussion and that would put us all to sleep. You will NOT be a hanja master from using the internet but it can be a good tool.



What resource (s) do you use to translate Hanja?

Basically, what are these rules that keep misunderstanding from happening?


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## mastercole (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Using the internet to translate is sure to give funny results, lol. There are actually rules that keep the misunderstanding from happening. That sir, is a whole other discussion and that would put us all to sleep. You will NOT be a hanja master from using the internet but it can be a good tool.



The same translations, definitions, character breakdown are found in books as well, however, that site I provided, usually provides more than most books can provide.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 19, 2011)

I will PM you that info as it might mess up the thread, I hate that, lol.


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## Archtkd (Jun 19, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Ron and Puunui, I'd like to take this discussion onto Taekwondo-net. We have thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin that would like to see this discussion.


 
Keep the discussion here. There are thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin following it here too.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 19, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Keep the discussion here. There are thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin following it here too.



And don't forget us non-taekwondoin!  We watch the Olympics and may even be fans.  Maybe we want to understand why you guys doffed the angry white pajamas.  

As far as ranking, belt colors, and titles go, that's interesting to us as well, in an academic way.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 19, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> So get ready for some real change! Coming to a Dojang near you..A new taekwondo rank structure, now with meaning and new colors, plus new uniforms!  EXTRA - The black belt is now blue (midnight blue, like TSD)
> 
> Actually we will introduce these new uniforms next month at the World Poomsae Championships in Vladivostok Russia! Cannot wait to wear mine.
> 
> ...


I could not get the link to work.  Not sure if its just me.  Would you be able to post a picture of the new dobok?  And what are the belt colors?

Thank you,

Daniel


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## dortiz (Jun 19, 2011)

http://www.jcalicu.com

Just go here and you can find them easily.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> In the case of the word "poomse" we have radically different meanings. Imagine a guy with an odd agenda trying to translate the old terms "poom" and "se" and selecting these meanings from the official CHINESE translations from the CHINESE / English dictionary:
> 
> http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindict.php?page=worddict&wdrst=1&wdqtm=0&wdqcham=1&wdqt=%E5%8B%A2
> 
> ...


 
I really do not want to go off thread but this really does deserve an explanation. Master Cole brings up a wonderful example of why you really need to study language instead of use the internet as your only translation device.

Master Cole has provided a link which will allow you to &#8220;define&#8221; characters.

http://www.mdbg.net/chindict/chindic...wdqt=勢

Looking at the term poomse &#21697;&#21218;(wow this word is so popular right now) he gets the following info:

*&#8220;**&#21697;** p&#464;n grade / to taste / to sample / to criticize / to judge / to size up*

*&#21218;** shì outward appearance / male genitals*

*Brings a whole new meaning to "Poomse" competition!&#8221;*


He is of course being funny but I can see his point. Try it yourself on the site and see. The basic thing that is not understood on sites like this is, like our dictionaries, there is much more info here but you would not know unless you were trained. Some of those &#8220;definitions&#8221; are pretty far down the list, hmm, why? How do you know which ones to pick, like our imaginary guy with an agenda? 

This is actually a great example of the difficulty in translations of Chinese characters but this example also shows the importance of not using the internet but rather education and cultural info for translation. You really have to understand how Chinese is used as a language. It is very different than English and if you try to use &#8220;our language&#8221; to define it you will get confused.

&#8220;That&#8217;s nice Ron, but I still see [male genitals] in the &#8220;definitions&#8221; so how the heck are you going to explain that?

I&#8217;m glad you asked, but you know me&#8230;.I talk a lot. Let&#8217;s use an example: Is anyone into athletics? (I hope ALL martial artists are athletes) One of my favorite sporting goods stores is, Dick&#8217;s. I really like Dick&#8217;s and go there as often as I can. Hey, why is everyone laughing? Try explaining to a foreigner why everyone is laughing. Look up &#8220;dick&#8221; in the dictionary and you will see multiple definitions but it is the context that lets you know which one to choose.

&#8220;So why the heck do I see [male genitals]?

For &#21218; to mean [male genitals] it has to be used with another word, like&#8230;.&#21435;

Try that one out in the link.

Wow, the info is a little different; it is talking about verbs and stuff now? Hmmmm. But the FIRST couple of &#8220;definitions&#8221; basically have something to do with taking away/removing, okay.

Now, let&#8217;s put&#21435; with &#21218; and get &#21435;&#21218;. Try that one and WOW!

Basically, it reads &#8220;*castration*&#8221;. Thanks Master Cole! 

But WAIT! Click on the blue characters next to neutered. It shows the definintions and that second one does not say [male genitals] 

I would define this word as, &#8220;*removing your power*&#8221;. THINK ABOUT IT&#8230;&#8230;.. Got it!

THAT is how Chinese often works. Putting things together in certain combinations make an, for lack of a better word&#8221; inference/innuendo. The individual hanja never lost or changed its meaning.


----------



## mastercole (Jun 20, 2011)

wrong location, moved the Taekkyon comment to other thread


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I know sir and I respect you and everything you have to say.



Funny but that is exactly what the pioneers and seniors say to me. Too bad so many of my juniors don't feel the same way.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> When you say "sabum" a Taekwondo teacher automatically comes to mind



I could be wrong but I believe that Taekwondo, or Tangsoodo back then was the first one to use the term sabum. It is contained in the korean language version of the Chung Do Kwan membership oath which was written in 1944. 




mastercole said:


> - Korean's do not think of Sabum as a "teacher of teachers" even if you can find it in Hanja



I think an important point to understand is that words when in combination, mean different things. So taking a straight dictionary translation could lead someone down the wrong path. For example, we see the word "together" and think one think, but for an non-english speaker trying to break the word down into component parts such as "to get her" may get an entirely different meaning. 




mastercole said:


> - ****you have to also know the intended meaning that Hanja was selected for.
> This means you have to find out from the people who selected it as Hanja has radically
> different meanings
> - Jido Sabum in this situation seems to him to mean "Lead Instructor" or "Chief Instructor",
> ...



I think this is the step that most people do not do, which leads to the most misunderstandings, in my opinion. They see something then jump to all sorts of conclusions based on their own non-korean value and belief system. But when you are attempting to understand what someone did and why, then it is best to find out, from their perspective, not ours.


----------



## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Now you have stated that Taekwondo seniors (your seniors or my seniors?) fabricated Taekwondo history.  What are the names of the senors that fabricated Taekwondo history? What specific history was fabricated?




I asked sort of the same questions, but never got a response. Perhaps you will have better luck than me.


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## StudentCarl (Jun 20, 2011)

I believe Master Cole has found the translation for that special feeling of getting kicked in the groin.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> Ron and Puunui, I'd like to take this discussion onto Taekwondo-net.  We have thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin that would like to see this discussion.




I think MT and tkd net are geared towards different audiences. Sometimes I think that you and I don't belong here, that we upset the apple cart every time we discuss our perspectives, our studies or our experiences. One person even told me that if they believed everything that I wrote, then that would mean that what they are doing, from the uniform that they wear to the terminology that they use to the way they do poomsae or sparring, basically everything, is wrong. 

A large part of taekwondo net on the other hand, are seniors from the highest levels of taekwondo. You post something on taekwondo net, and your name, thoughts and writings will be read by people like Dr. Un Yong Kim, the majority of USTU past presidents as well as the presidents of many WTF MNA worldwide, WTF secretariat, IOC members, IRs including several Olympic IRs, the Kukkiwon, KTA, teaching faculty of chae dae, Samsang S1 Team, etc.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

mastercole said:


> There many other sites like it, but keep in mind we are talking about KOREAN use of these terms, not exactly CHINESE, thought they are often the same.  So it is good to supplement your CHINESE Word & Character dictionary with an "Everyday Hanja" reference as well.



That is also a good point. The same words in Japanese or Chinese may have different usage and inferences than Korean usage. For example the terms Sabum and Kyosa. In Japanese, Sabum is pronounced Shihan and Kyosa is Kyoshi. These are generally looked upon as the highest titles that one can receive in the Japanese martial arts. However, in Taekwondo usage, these are considered now to be the lowest titles to be used, surpassed by Kwan Jang, etc. Different country, different usage and meaning.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Keep the discussion here. There are thousands of dedicated Taekwondoin following it here too.




I don't think there are thousands viewing the discussions here, if you go by the number of page views per topic.


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## TaekwondoDad (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think MT and tkd net are geared towards different audiences. Sometimes I think that you and I don't belong here, that we upset the apple cart every time we discuss our perspectives, our studies or our experiences. One person even told me that if they believed everything that I wrote, then that would mean that what they are doing, from the uniform that they wear to the terminology that they use to the way they do poomsae or sparring, basically everything, is wrong.
> 
> A large part of taekwondo net on the other hand, are seniors from the highest levels of taekwondo. You post something on taekwondo net, and your name, thoughts and writings will be read by people like Dr. Un Yong Kim, the majority of USTU past presidents as well as the presidents of many WTF MNA worldwide, WTF secretariat, IOC members, IRs including several Olympic IRs, the Kukkiwon, KTA, teaching faculty of chae dae, Samsang S1 Team, etc.


 
Is tkd net an open forum?  Can you give me the url?


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

TaekwondoDad said:


> Is tkd net an open forum?  Can you give me the url?



No it is not an open forum and there is no url.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> I asked sort of the same questions, but never got a response. Perhaps you will have better luck than me.


I suspect that there are no specific names to be had.  It seems that the idea that TKD has a fabricated history is fairly pervasive among some/many members of some MA boards, regardless of factual merit to the statement.

Daniel


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> Funny but that is exactly what the pioneers and seniors say to me. Too bad so many of my juniors don't feel the same way.



Sir,

My teacher, jongoon Kim, told me - Never expect respect, don't cry if you do not get it but rather always attempt to earn it.  

He also told me that if I thought I was trying and I still was not getting it, the problem was then ME, not them.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> My teacher, jongoon Kim, told me - Never expect respect, don't cry if you do not get it but rather always attempt to earn it.
> 
> He also told me that if I thought I was trying and I still was not getting it, the problem was then ME, not them.




I wasn't really expecting respect or even attempting to "earn it"; in fact on message boards like this, given how sometimes radically different my viewpoint is to the mainstream American view, I expect disrespect. I was just pointing out how differently I am viewed by my seniors and teachers vs. some juniors out there. That's all.


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## dortiz (Jun 20, 2011)

"fabricated history"

Oh Come on. I love and respect my seniors too. And I totally get a people who suffered and held great pride and why they would want to give greater truth to some truths. But lets cut the crap. From the Kukkiwon to every school out there the magical 2000 plus history with the cave figures yada yada yada was being propagated and almost by everyone. And it was not just TKD in HKD Myungs first book had Choi coming out of 9 years in a cave with great revelations. Suddenly sword fighting went back to ancient times. I watched as my Judo logo in our school suddenly became a Yudo sign and shortly after brochures had tales of ancient times and great wrestling matches.
Everyone got on board the sense of pride but yes it was mostly made up. 
Oops, now everyone knows so who cares. Still great arts being done with the Korean flavors that make them better ; )


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

dortiz said:


> "fabricated history"
> 
> Oh Come on. I love and respect my seniors too. And I totally get a people who suffered and held great pride and why they would want to give greater truth to some truths. But lets cut the crap. From the Kukkiwon to every school out there the magical 2000 plus history with the cave figures yada yada yada was being propagated and almost by everyone. And it was not just TKD in HKD Myungs first book had Choi coming out of 9 years in a cave with great revelations. Suddenly sword fighting went back to ancient times. I watched as my Judo logo in our school suddenly became a Yudo sign and shortly after brochures had tales of ancient times and great wrestling matches.
> Everyone got on board the sense of pride but yes it was mostly made up.
> Oops, now everyone knows so who cares. Still great arts being done with the Korean flavors that make them better ; )



I don't know about Hapkido or Judo, but you have expressed what many feel about those historical references. But try looking at it from the other perspective, outside of your own. What point was Dr. Un Yong Kim and the pioneers trying to get across, given the context of when those statements were first made and the audience that it was being made to?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know about Hapkido or Judo, but you have expressed what many feel about those historical references. But try looking at it from the other perspective, outside of your own. What point was Dr. Un Yong Kim and the pioneers trying to get across, given the context of when those statements were first made and the audience that it was being made to?




I totally agree with you, from their point of view they had to organize and somehow unify martial arts. They had to be nationalistic. Dr. Kim did something that was amazing and really had singular vision. Without him this would all be very different.  However, to build the framework they used distorted propaganda and enforced it to dogma. The foundation looks bad because we can all see though it now.  I really think that Steve Capener hit the nail on the head with his old paper:

http://www.eagletkd.com/images/STUDENT FORUM from Korea Journal.pdf

This art and the people in it need to evolve now, if we don't then the weak foundation might fall.  This does not mean let go of the past at all, it means know the past and learn from it.  Don't try to fabricate information but celebrate the lineages and history that Taekwondo is NOW!


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I totally agree with you, from their point of view they had to organize and somehow unify martial arts. They had to be nationalistic. Dr. Kim did something that was amazing and really had singular vision. Without him this would all be very different.  However, to build the framework they used distorted propaganda and enforced it to dogma. The foundation looks bad because we can all see though it now.



That wasn't really the context that I was speaking about. The context that I was talking about occurred at an IOC meeting. 




MSUTKD said:


> I really think that Steve Capener hit the nail on the head with his old paper:
> http://www.eagletkd.com/images/STUDENT FORUM from Korea Journal.pdf



There is a lot of factual errors in that paper, which was written in 1995, so much so that it throws the whole premise of his thesis into question. Given all of the historical information that has come out since that paper was written, I seriously wonder whether Steve Capener still feels the same way today. 




MSUTKD said:


> This art and the people in it need to evolve now, if we don't then the weak foundation might fall.  This does not mean let go of the past at all, it means know the past and learn from it.  Don't try to fabricate information but celebrate the lineages and history that Taekwondo is NOW!



I disagree that Taekwondo has a weak foundation. I think it has a strong foundation, much stronger than even JKA Karate. If Taekwondo were weak in anyway as a martial art, I would have discontinued my study and practice a long time ago. The strongest part of Taekwondo's foundation, in my opinion, was the idea that those of so many varied paths, interests, strengths and weaknesses could all work together to help create something beautiful. I think this is true at the kwan level, KTA, Kukkiwon, USTU, and WTF, at least up to about 2004. It was like watching an orchestra or a football team execute in concert. That is Taekwondo's strength, something that Karate could never really accomplish on the same sort of scale. It too had many talented leaders; however, they could never get it together to take karate to the next level. If they had, there really would have been no room for Taekwondo to develop in the way that it did. Our Korean born seniors and pioneers observed the failings of Karate and made a conscious decision not to follow in its footsteps. They took the good parts of Karate, avoided the pitfalls, and in doing so, created something that really is the envy on the martial arts world. 

I do agree that Taekwondoin, especially in the US, have to evolve past their own preconceived ideas and prejudices in looking towards the present and the future. Thinking that our seniors have fabricated history is certainly not a good starting point, in my opinion. 

By the way, I have some pending questions to you. Do you plan to answer, or should I stop hoping I will get a reply?


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> That is also a good point. The same words in Japanese or Chinese may have different usage and inferences than Korean usage. For example the terms Sabum and Kyosa. In Japanese, Sabum is pronounced Shihan and Kyosa is Kyoshi. These are generally looked upon as the highest titles that one can receive in the Japanese martial arts. However, in Taekwondo usage, these are considered now to be the lowest titles to be used, surpassed by Kwan Jang, etc. Different country, different usage and meaning.



Sir, 
Not exactly true.  There is no inference of status,"now being the lowest titles".  Different country, correct. Different usage, somewhat correct.  Different meaning, incorrect. 
It is clear you do not understand hanja.  Please read my response to Master Cole and using the internet to translate. Not that you did that here but it give a better picture of the structure of hanja.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

When questions are actually relevant, at the time, I will answer them sir.  Maybe.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I totally agree with you, from their point of view they had to organize and somehow unify martial arts. They had to be nationalistic. Dr. Kim did something that was amazing and really had singular vision. Without him this would all be very different.  However, to build the framework they used distorted propaganda and enforced it to dogma.



More on this premise statement of yours. First we don't totally agree. You operate under the assumption and premise that Taekwondo was built on a framework of "distorted propaganda" and then take it from there. I reject your premise and ask you to first establish what exactly was the distorted propaganda? Nationalism had something to do with it, but it was not the all encompassing directive that you make it out to be and was not within your context of distorted propaganda and dogma.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> There is a lot of factual errors in that paper, which was written in 1995, so much so that it throws the whole premise of his thesis into question. Given all of the historical information that has come out since that paper was written, I seriously wonder whether Steve Capener still feels the same way today.



I will ask him.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Not exactly true.  There is no inference of status,"now being the lowest titles".  Different country, correct. Different usage, somewhat correct.  Different meaning, incorrect. It is clear you do not understand hanja.  Please read my response to Master Cole and using the internet to translate. Not that you did that here but it give a better picture of the structure of hanja.




I guess in that sense you are right; there is no inference, since the titles sabum (Shihan) and kyosa (kyoshi) are the lowest titles one can have in Taekwondo, unlike in Japanese martial arts styles, wherein they are highest titles. According to the WTF, the sabum title is how you refer to someone who is 1st-3rd Dan; I know of no Japanese martial arts system that calls its 1st through 3rd Dans Shihan. Same thing with kyosa. In most schools that use such titles, it is reserved for assistant instructor level students, 1st Dans frequently. Again, I know of no Japanese martial arts who use the title kyoshi to refer to 1st Dans. 

I did read your post to Mastercole regarding hanja. It is obvious that you spent a considerable time writing that post, using dictionaries and whatever other sources to help build your case. But I think that work was to some degree misguided, sort of like the efforts to paint Taekwondo's historical and cultural backdrop as "fabricated" or "distorted propaganda" to be misguided. 

I know how much you hate going off topic. If you prefer, we can create a new topic and discuss these issues.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> When questions are actually relevant, at the time, I will answer them sir.  Maybe.




They are relevant now because you are the one who is bringing up these points to preface your posts.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I will ask him.



While you are doing that, ask him if he would like to make any changes or factual corrections to his paper.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> More on this premise statement of yours. First we don't totally agree. You operate under the assumption and premise that Taekwondo was built on a framework of "distorted propaganda" and then take it from there. I reject your premise and ask you to first establish what exactly was the distorted propaganda? Nationalism had something to do with it, but it was not the all encompassing directive that you make it out to be and was not within your context of distorted propaganda and dogma.



I think that  Capener sums it up for me sir.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> While you are doing that, ask him if he would like to make any changes or factual corrections to his paper.



Actually, I did just that.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

puunui said:


> I did read your post to Mastercole regarding hanja. It is obvious that you spent a considerable time writing that post, using dictionaries and whatever other sources to help build your case. But I think that work was to some degree misguided, sort of like the efforts to paint Taekwondo's historical and cultural backdrop as "fabricated" or "distorted propaganda" to be misguided.



 Lol, you are hilarious. I am a student of this language sir, I of course used a dictionary and thought about a logical explanation to build a case. Like any real academic would. Why on earth would consise thought be considered negative?  As I actually understand the language and know that I have an audience whom might not fully understand I used humor, information and examples to make a point that most would understand.  
If you feel that my methodology in hanja is incorrect, then by all means call me out.  If you can do better, now is the time.


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## MSUTKD (Jun 20, 2011)

I am no longer participating in this thread due to discontinuity.


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> As I actually understand the language and know that I have an audience whom might not fully understand I used humor, information and examples to make a point that most would understand.




I think you might understand parts of the Korean language from a dictionary sense of certain words and characters, but I do not believe that you truly and fully understand the historical and cultural context from which Taekwondo has sprung. If you did, I don't believe you would be making generalizations regarding  "fabricated history" or "distorted propaganda".


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## puunui (Jun 20, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> I think that  Capener sums it up for me sir.



So you rely 100% on Professor Capener's 1995 thesis paper in support of your opinion that Taekwondo's history is "fabricated", and the result of "distorted propaganda"?


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

MSUTKD said:


> Not exactly true.  There is no inference of status,"now being the lowest titles".  Different country, correct. Different usage, somewhat correct.  Different meaning, incorrect. It is clear you do not understand hanja.  Please read my response to Master Cole and using the internet to translate. Not that you did that here but it give a better picture of the structure of hanja.




And in furtherance of the topic, instead of using Japanese translations of title, perhaps english titles would be better. In the english speaking world, the title "Master" is afforded a distinguished and often revered place in the martial arts, reserved for "high" ranking practitioners. In Korea, the title is not so revered or distinguished, such that we have the Kukkiwon stating that those 1st through 5th Dan can call themselves master. Some were outraged, saying that this somehow demeans the title and honor of the title Master, that it is wrong, and that we should stop this outrage. 

However, I notice no one is protesting the use of high level Japanese martial arts titles like Kyoshi and Shihan for similarly ranked KMA practitioners, 1st Dan and above. Why is that? Why do we protest over the use of titles in one case, and not the other? Why aren't people outraged at the use of Kyoshi for an assistant instructor who is 1st Dan? 

Different culture, different language, different use of the same words, a concept that is easily understood by all, whether in your judgment they understand hanja or not.


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## Tony49 (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> As Tony Jidosabum or Tony Jidosabumnim or Jidosabumnim, depending on whether you are senior or junior. I suppose it would also be ok to simply say Sabumnim. I still call some of my teachers that.



Thanks.  I am new to all the Korean Titles as I hold belts in Kenpo/Eskrima.  I am trying to get caught up.


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## Archtkd (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think MT and tkd net are geared towards different audiences. Sometimes I think that you and I don't belong here, that we upset the apple cart every time we discuss our perspectives, our studies or our experiences. One person even told me that if they believed everything that I wrote, then that would mean that what they are doing, from the uniform that they wear to the terminology that they use to the way they do poomsae or sparring, basically everything, is wrong.
> 
> A large part of taekwondo net on the other hand, are seniors from the highest levels of taekwondo. You post something on taekwondo net, and your name, thoughts and writings will be read by people like Dr. Un Yong Kim, the majority of USTU past presidents as well as the presidents of many WTF MNA worldwide, WTF secretariat, IOC members, IRs including several Olympic IRs, the Kukkiwon, KTA, teaching faculty of chae dae, Samsang S1 Team, etc.


 
Maybe you and Master Cole need to come down to our small universe sometimes. Those important men you mention -- and I'd be right in saying just men -- don't help us simple folk run our small dojangs, teach our students, scrape up a few coins here and there to attend seminars, locate the best teachers nearby, learn new things at the lower often local level, etc. I don't know of any USTU past president who lives here in the Show Me State, I don't know and have never met any KTA member, I don't know what the Samsang S1 team is, nor have I ever met teaching faculty of chae dae. Does that make me irrelevant? Does that really make me so "different," from a senior Taekwondoin's perspective? Does that make me less able to learn and understand the past, present and future of this martial art and sport that I love and practice with every fiber of my body? No disrespect here and you know this: the Taekwondoin of you and Master Cole's stature and position should help fill the gaps that separate some of us from those that are too far from our small world.


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 21, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Maybe you and Master Cole need to come down to our small universe sometimes. Those important men you mention -- and I'd be right in saying just men -- don't help us simple folk run our small dojangs, teach our students, scrape up a few coins here and there to attend seminars, locate the best teachers nearby, learn new things at the lower often local level, etc. I don't know of any USTU past president who lives here in the Show Me State, I don't know and have never met any KTA member, I don't know what the Samsang S1 team is, nor have I ever met teaching faculty of chae dae. Does that make me irrelevant? Does that really make me so "different," from a senior Taekwondoin's perspective? Does that make me less able to learn and understand the past, present and future of this martial art and sport that I love and practice with every fiber of my body? No disrespect here and you know this: the Taekwondoin of you and Master Cole's stature and position should help fill the gaps that separate some of us from those that are too far from our small world.


So true. I liken it to the reality tv show "undercover boss". Usually when the boss actually comes and rubs shoulders with the 'simple folk' they realise just how out of touch they are with what is actually going on. I learn a hell of a lot more about tkd talking to "simple folk" than I do reading 'papers' by the heirachy. People get way too caught up in the whole "senior" , "junior" thing. I remember when I first met my chief instructor (7th dan), I bowed and called him "sir" and he just laughed at me and said "Dont bow and just call me by my first name, we dont go in for all that stuff, we are all equal, I have just been training longer and your opinion is just as valid as mine or anyone else in this room". I really respected him for that.


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## dancingalone (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> However, I notice no one is protesting the use of high level Japanese martial arts titles like Kyoshi and Shihan for similarly ranked KMA practitioners, 1st Dan and above. Why is that? Why do we protest over the use of titles in one case, and not the other? *Why aren't people outraged at the use of Kyoshi for an assistant instructor who is 1st Dan? *



I personally haven't heard of any Korean martist artist, 1st dan or otherwise, using the kyoshi title.  That said, I would think what you state would be a breach in decorum.  

Kyoshi as you know is a high form of teaching recognition.  It would be very egregious for a beginner black belt to call himself one or for others to use the same title in connection to him.  Many master level instructors who have earned kyoshi recognition don't even use the title except in formal correspondence.  They call themselves sensei mostly.


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## andyjeffries (Jun 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I personally haven't heard of any Korean martist artist, 1st dan or otherwise, using the kyoshi title.  That said, I would think what you state would be a breach in decorum.
> 
> Kyoshi as you know is a high form of teaching recognition.  It would be very egregious for a beginner black belt to call himself one or for others to use the same title in connection to him.  Many master level instructors who have earned kyoshi recognition don't even use the title except in formal correspondence.  They call themselves sensei mostly.



Korean first dans (and higher grades referring to lower dans) quite commonly use Kyosa (which is the same hanja).  No breach in decorum or egregiousness...


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## Archtkd (Jun 21, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> So true. I liken it to the reality tv show "undercover boss". Usually when the boss actually comes and rubs shoulders with the 'simple folk' they realise just how out of touch they are with what is actually going on. I learn a hell of a lot more about tkd talking to "simple folk" than I do reading 'papers' by the heirachy. People get way too caught up in the whole "senior" , "junior" thing. I remember when I first met my chief instructor (7th dan), I bowed and called him "sir" and he just laughed at me and said "Dont bow and just call me by my first name, we dont go in for all that stuff, we are all equal, I have just been training longer and your opinion is just as valid as mine or anyone else in this room". I really respected him for that.



That''s not exactly what I was saying and I hope that other readers don't get the impression that I think the seniors in question are out of touch and don't know what's going on. It's quite the opposite. They are way ahead and I'm just trying to respectfully nudge them to slow down a little and communicate in ways that the message can be understood by all and sundry.


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## dancingalone (Jun 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Korean first dans (and higher grades referring to lower dans) quite commonly use Kyosa (which is the same hanja).  No breach in decorum or egregiousness...



But does it mean the same thing contextually or culturally as calling someone Kyoshi if they practice a Japanese MA?  I think no.  What do you say?


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> But does it mean the same thing contextually or culturally as calling someone Kyoshi if they practice a Japanese MA?  I think no.  What do you say?



It is the same hanja, but used differently in different countries. I'm not making a judgment on the use of either one, just pointing out the facts. I leave the judgmental stuff to others.


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Maybe you and Master Cole need to come down to our small universe sometimes.



That's why we are both here. Some people really don't like that. You should see some of the PMs flying around from the same people egging others on to attack and discredit us or to report us for whatever violation they think we committed. Part of me thinks it may be better if they succeed in getting us kicked off so we don't have to deal with it. Then the discussions can go back to "I hate and don't need the Kukkiwon" or "General Choi is the founder" or "History is fabricated" and no one will challenge it. But who really loses if that happens? Mastercole and I? I don't think so. 




Archtkd said:


> Those important men you mention -- and I'd be right in saying just men --



No, it's women too.




Archtkd said:


> don't help us simple folk run our small dojangs, teach our students, scrape up a few coins here and there to attend seminars, locate the best teachers nearby, learn new things at the lower often local level, etc.



They actually do do these things, if you think about it. 




Archtkd said:


> I don't know of any USTU past president who lives here in the Show Me State, I don't know and have never met any KTA member, I don't know what the Samsang S1 team is, nor have I ever met teaching faculty of chae dae.



Go out and meet them. They are out there. Miguksaram is still in Korea I believe, but he will tell you that he experienced all of the above going on a trip to Korea sponsored by USTC and the Korean Government. Had I been a member of MT back then, I probably would have invited you, for the diversity that you bring. 




Archtkd said:


> Does that make me irrelevant? Does that really make me so "different," from a senior Taekwondoin's perspective? Does that make me less able to learn and understand the past, present and future of this martial art and sport that I love and practice with every fiber of my body?



No it doesn't. Never said it did. 




Archtkd said:


> No disrespect here and you know this: the Taekwondoin of you and Master Cole's stature and position should help fill the gaps that separate some of us from those that are too far from our small world.



If you ever actually meet Mastercole and I, you will come to understand that the both of us are actually very normal people. If you saw either of us on the street, you would probably simply walk past the both us and would probably never know that either of us practiced any type of martial art. The only real difference is that both of us were unsatisfied with accepting the status quo out there, and instead went out and found out for ourselves what really happened, and why. On technical matters we try very hard to follow the latest cutting edge training methods and strategies, which we obtain from cutting edge people. We both try to as little as possible to interject ourselves into the equation, because we both realize that doing that always dilutes the meaning and the message. It is difficult to not want to add your own stuff into it, but that is the only way to understand things from the pioneers and the creator's view, which is what we try to share. If you are not interested in what the pioneers' thoughts and actions actually were, which we both know because we actually sat down and asked them, then you will have no need or use for either of us.


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> They are way ahead and I'm just trying to respectfully nudge them to slow down a little and communicate in ways that the message can be understood by all and sundry.



if you don't understand something, it would be best to ask questions.


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## tinker1 (Jun 21, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Korean first dans (and higher grades referring to lower dans) quite commonly use Kyosa (which is the same hanja).  No breach in decorum or egregiousness...



Really?  I guess I've lived in a bubble... titles used around me have always been of Korean origin...  
(pardon my spelling, I am going with my american accented phonetics here)
Cho go nim
Bu Sah bu nim
Sah bu num
Bu Kwan jang nim
Kwan jang nim

Beyond those I don't know.

I've always been of the opinion that using Japanese terms for Koreans was an insult...


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

tinker1 said:


> (pardon my spelling, I am going with my american accented phonetics here)
> Cho go nim
> Bu Sah bu nim
> Sah bu num
> ...



I don't know what Chogonim means. Perhaps it is the korean pronunciation of Shogun. That would be interesting.

Sabum is pronounced Shihan in Japanese. Kwanjang is pronounced Kancho in Japanese. No one is talking about using the Japanese pronunciation in a KMA school; what we are talking about is using korean pronunciations of titles which are also used in Japanese Martial Arts schools, shihan (sabum) and kancho (kwanjang) being two examples which you are familiar with.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> It is the same hanja, but used differently in different countries. I'm not making a judgment on the use of either one, just pointing out the facts. I leave the judgmental stuff to others.


When I first began teaching kumdo for GM Kim, he said that I was now 'kyosa.'  When I reached sadan, he said that I was sabeom.  Other KMA schools and sites have used the term to refer to a general teacher.  

I did not make the connection with kyoshi until reading this thread.  

So far as I know, the kanji for kyoshi is &#25945;&#22763;.  An ITF site that I referenced in another post when trying to answer a question for Terry listed it as this: &#25934;&#24107;.  According to Wikipedia, this kanji is also pronounced kyoshi but is considered more modest than sensei.  

So perhaps kyosa is not the same hanja as the kyoshi that you are thinking of?

Daniel


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## tinker1 (Jun 21, 2011)

puunui said:


> I don't know what Chogonim means. Perhaps it is the korean pronunciation of Shogun. That would be interesting.
> 
> Sabum is pronounced Shihan in Japanese. Kwanjang is pronounced Kancho in Japanese. No one is talking about using the Japanese pronunciation in a KMA school; what we are talking about is using korean pronunciations of titles which are also used in Japanese Martial Arts schools, shihan (sabum) and kancho (kwanjang) being two examples which you are familiar with.



That was the terminology I learned from GM Dan Choi... GM Kim & GM Koo both seemed ok with it.

Chogo nim was intended to mean "student instructor", basically below 2nd dan.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 21, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Maybe you and Master Cole need to come down to our small universe sometimes. Those important men you mention -- and I'd be right in saying just men -- don't help us simple folk run our small dojangs, teach our students, scrape up a few coins here and there to attend seminars, locate the best teachers nearby, learn new things at the lower often local level, etc. I don't know of any USTU past president who lives here in the Show Me State, I don't know and have never met any KTA member, I don't know what the Samsang S1 team is, nor have I ever met teaching faculty of chae dae. Does that make me irrelevant? Does that really make me so "different," from a senior Taekwondoin's perspective? Does that make me less able to learn and understand the past, present and future of this martial art and sport that I love and practice with every fiber of my body? No disrespect here and you know this: the Taekwondoin of you and Master Cole's stature and position should help fill the gaps that separate some of us from those that are too far from our small world.


I don't know; I really enjoy their perspective.  It is one that is different from many others here, and as Terry Lamar pointed out, they do tend to be ready with citations to support what they say.  

Do I always agree with them?  No.  But nobody always agrees with anybody.  I do feel that Glenn and Master Cole have been very good for this section of MT.  Glenn in particular has been pretty consistent in participating in discussions here, and while some complain that conversations keep going into academic historical discussions, I'd rather that than the same tired threads of 'USAT sucks' and 'Sport vs. art.'

One of the reasons that I participate here is because I desire to learn.  Glenn and Master Cole bring a depth of knowledge that is hard to find and a perspective that differs from that of others here.  

We all have a different perspective and a different experience.  I feel that Glenn and Master Cole do a great deal to enrich this section.

There are others here who's posts I hold in equally high regard (Master Weis comes to mind).  I cannot offer that perspective to others; it is not mine to offer.  But they can.   

Just my thoughts.  

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't know; I really enjoy their perspective.  It is one that is different from many others here, and as Terry Lamar pointed out, they do tend to be ready with citations to support what they say.
> 
> Do I always agree with them?  No.  But nobody always agrees with anybody.  I do feel that Glenn and Master Cole have been very good for this section of MT.  Glenn in particular has been pretty consistent in participating in discussions here, and while some complain that conversations keep going into academic historical discussions, I'd rather that than the same tired threads of 'USAT sucks' and 'Sport vs. art.'
> 
> ...


I think almost all here would agree with that Daniel. I am surprised that according to puunui there are people sending around PM's rgarding him and mastercole. I certainly have not been sent any, nor would I send any, despite rarely agreeing with them. If there really are PM's doing the rounds it would surprise me.


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## puunui (Jun 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When I first began teaching kumdo for GM Kim, he said that I was now 'kyosa.'  When I reached sadan, he said that I was sabeom.  Other KMA schools and sites have used the term to refer to a general teacher.
> 
> I did not make the connection with kyoshi until reading this thread.
> 
> ...




I don't think in terms of hanja when thinking about the term kyosa. I think of the english word, which is how I see it used most often. I do not use the term myself. Given the fact that we use the term sabum (shihan), I would think that the hanja would be the same as Kyoshi used in japanese martial arts. Perhaps the ITF uses different hanja. Kyosa isn't an official term at least not by the Kukkiwon but rather one that has been adopted by individual dojang. I will try to look up the hanja in my korean language martial arts books. I think of the term kyoshi as being higher than sensei, which is more generic in my mind. The term sensei is used in a lot of different circumstances in japanese culture, and not just in the teacher student context. For example, a worker may address his or her boss as sensei at work. When I think of kyoshi, I think of kyoju dairi or menkyo kaiden ranking or titles.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jun 21, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think almost all here would agree with that Daniel. I am surprised that according to puunui there are people sending around PM's rgarding him and mastercole. I certainly have not been sent any, nor would I send any, despite rarely agreeing with them. If there really are PM's doing the rounds it would surprise me.



People get overwrought.  If I don't like what someone is saying, I just ignore them.  If I really feel strongly enough or if I feel that it might be a worthwhile exchange, I may voice my disagreement to them directly, either on the topic in question or via a pm to them.

Most of the time, I am happy to just sit back and read what they have to say.  Them and others.  Being a social creature, I do tend to jump in now and then to participate.  But I also try to take advantage of the fact that people with a lot more knowledge than myself are posting by simply reading what they have to say, and sometimes asking questions.

Also, people take things way to personally and way too seriously.

Daniel


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## ralphmcpherson (Jun 21, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> People get overwrought.  If I don't like what someone is saying, I just ignore them.  If I really feel strongly enough or if I feel that it might be a worthwhile exchange, I may voice my disagreement to them directly, either on the topic in question or via a pm to them.
> 
> Most of the time, I am happy to just sit back and read what they have to say.  Them and others.  Being a social creature, I do tend to jump in now and then to participate.  But I also try to take advantage of the fact that people with a lot more knowledge than myself are posting by simply reading what they have to say, and sometimes asking questions.
> 
> ...


I couldnt agree more, places like these should be somewhere you can come and relax and do some reading. If it gets to the point where things are getting taken personally/seriously then I think people are missing the point of coming here in the first place. It still does surprise me that people send PM's behind people's backs. If I had a real problem with something somebody was saying I would PM them direct. But in a couple of years of coming here it has never come to that. Realistically, with any forum, you can pretty quickly work out which posters are worth listening to and which ones arent.


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## Archtkd (Jun 22, 2011)

puunui said:


> That's why we are both here. Some people really don't like that. You should see some of the PMs flying around from the same people egging others on to attack and discredit us or to report us for whatever violation they think we committed. Part of me thinks it may be better if they succeed in getting us kicked off so we don't have to deal with it. Then the discussions can go back to "I hate and don't need the Kukkiwon" or "General Choi is the founder" or "History is fabricated" and no one will challenge it. But who really loses if that happens? Mastercole and I? I don't think so.



Sending PMS back and forth, to attack, discuss or attempt to discredit a person, especially for something they are saying on the open boards, is to say the list childish. I believe in open discussion and I think that's the reason I really like MT. Frustration of course sets in when topics regurgitate for too long without moving forward or are thrown off the tracks so deep that we all forget what the original discussion was all about. That was my state of mind in my earlier post and I'm glad you Master Cole, MSTUKD, and other knowledgeable folk continue to post on MT and discuss new and tough topics despite the distractions.


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## tinker1 (Jun 22, 2011)

This sort of thing is almost inevitable on forums like this.  It's a sad truth.

People disagree, and without the possibility of a face to face confrontation they start sniping at each other.

For myself, there's a lot of threads that I just don't look at.. either it's something that's likely to upset me and/or it's something I don't give two shakes about.

It's hard to not feel attacked by someones snarky comments to something you write.  It's common to want to retaliate.

Easy for me to say since I'm not involved here - but it's best to just walk away from situations like this.


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## mastercole (Jun 25, 2011)

puunui wrote: "We both try to as little as possible to interject ourselves into the equation, because we both realize that doing that always dilutes the meaning and the message."

I think this is what many people who read what you and I write don't know, don't realize or don't take into consideration. We are usually quoting something we heard from the people who formulated Taekwondo. 

It's like coming back to the USA after attending the early Kukkiwon instructor courses and explaining to the USA Taekwondo community that Kukkiwon is explaining the Poomsae with a more narrow, shorter stance and more compact motion that what is currently winning at the US National Championships. It might take 10 years to be accepted.


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