# Fighting With A Blackthorn



## Joab (Mar 17, 2009)

*Fighting With A Blackthorn*

*Percy Longhurst 1919*








Blow to the knee.
A good Irish blackthorn, Paddy's Shillelagh, is perhaps the best stick , and the work it will do in the hands of a desparate man familiar with its use is remarkable . Oak, ash and hazel also make serviceable walking sticks with which a handy man can do a lot of mischief; but they are not the equal of the blackthorn. Bear in mind , if attacked by a ruffian armed also with a stick , to hold your own weapon nearly one- third of it's length from the ferrule; the lower portion serves as an excellent guard for your arm and elbow . Also do not forget that an upwards blow may be made just as dangerous as a swinging downwards stroke, and is not so easily guarded. 





Blow to the edge of the wrist.
Once more I will remind my readers not to neglect that paralysing drive at the MARK which, delivered with some force, is even more effective than a similiar blow with the fist. 
(The MARK is considered to be the solar plexus) 
Stand on guard, with the feet on a line, grasp your blackthorn with a hand at either end, your arms being held across your head, blows can come from either side of your body, this depends on what hand you release the blow from, whether the blow will come from the right or left side depends altogether upon the attack of the opponent. The side of the head, elbow, throat, and knee are the usual points of attack, though perhaps the most effective stroke is a terrible upward slash at the inside of the legs. 
HOME

</SPAN>


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 17, 2009)

Here's a great little treatise on self-defense, circa 1835

BLACKWOOD'S EDINBURGH MAGAZINE No. CCXXXVII. JULY, 1835. Vol. XXXVIII.


> What then are the best modes of self-defence against attacks, whether on the streets or on the highways and roads?and this brings us to the third part of the Baron's discourse, from which we are selecting a few characteristic specimen?. In it he draws his practical conclusions. And in the first place he directs our attention to " our tools or rather weapons." " The stick," he says well, " is an excellent weapon." " A stick," he does not hesitate to say " in able hands, is nearly as good as a sword." Nay, in the hands of an inferior broadswordsman, it ishe maintainseven better.How so 1 Because a stick inflicts nearly equal pain by a blow from any part of the circumference, wherefore it has been jocosely called a sword, having an edge all round. The best kind of sticksare oak, ash, and hazel saplings, black thorn, and sound rattan; however sound, are apt to fly; but they suit persons whose arms are deficient in muscle, for they can be recovered quickly after a cut, and they cut sharp. We have always been partial to oak, though we have done good execution with ash, *but "my own fancy," says the Colonel, "is in favour of the blackthorn."* Its knobs save the knuckles, and it is your true Tom Tough. Black ratans are seldom soundand most of the other canes are too springy for parrying and making true cuts. Great nicety of hand and eye are required in the telection of a well-Bhaped and sound stickand aome men, as if by intuition, will put their hand at once on the best plant in a hundred. "


----------



## arnisador (Mar 17, 2009)

Everyone loves a good stick!


----------



## Tez3 (Mar 18, 2009)

I've seen these being carried around, the Royal Irish Regiment SNCOs and officers carry them rather than the pace sticks carried by other regiments. they are fiercesome looking things ( the sticks not the soldiers though maybe on second thoughts....)


----------



## lklawson (Mar 18, 2009)

Yeah, Longhurst is good stuff.  One of the three remaining period attempts to document Irish stickfighting methods.

The other two are Allanson-Winn and Walker.  (though a lot can be gleaned from period artwork)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's a great little treatise on self-defense, circa 1835
> 
> BLACKWOOD'S EDINBURGH MAGAZINE No. CCXXXVII. JULY, 1835. Vol. XXXVIII.


Thanks, I liked that. I own an Irish Blackthorne walking stick and have it by my door at all times. I thought the post I cut and pasted was well suitable for St. Patrick's Day.


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Everyone loves a good stick!


 
Yeah, I talk softly too.


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen these being carried around, the Royal Irish Regiment SNCOs and officers carry them rather than the pace sticks carried by other regiments. they are fiercesome looking things ( the sticks not the soldiers though maybe on second thoughts....)


 
Yeah, they are. There was only one place in Seattle I could find that sold them, an Irish celtic store. The lady that I bought it from said "Don't kill anybody with it..." She sounded serious, I assured her I wouldn't and have kept my word.


----------



## Joab (Mar 18, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Yeah, Longhurst is good stuff. One of the three remaining period attempts to document Irish stickfighting methods.
> 
> The other two are Allanson-Winn and Walker. (though a lot can be gleaned from period artwork)
> 
> ...


 
A walking stick is more legal to carry on you than a sword and draws less attention, especially with my gray hairs...


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 18, 2009)

Joab said:


> A walking stick is more legal to carry on you than a sword and draws less attention, especially with my gray hairs...



I presume everyone here is familiar with CaneMasters...?

http://www.canemasters.com/


----------



## lklawson (Mar 19, 2009)

Joab said:


> A walking stick is more legal to carry on you than a sword and draws less attention, especially with my gray hairs...


It's funny, but in a lot of places (in the U.S., anyway) you can still carry a sword legally.  But, yes, you'd get funny looks (and possibly LEO inquiries).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 19, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I presume everyone here is familiar with CaneMasters...?
> 
> http://www.canemasters.com/


I'm not a big fan of CaneMasters and here's why.

They go to great lengths convincing you about how innocuous appearing and easily overlooked canes are and then market products which only nominally look like canes.  Every passing Joe Sixpack can look at one of the CaneMasters specials and automatically think "weapon."  (Excepting their "Stock Canes" of course, which can be purchased much less expensively elsewhere).

I admit, here, that Im something of two minds on the subject.  I firmly believe that everyone who has the authority to make life hard on you for having weapons (i.e. LEOs) ALREADY knows that canes can be used as weapons.  Theyll profile you based on more than just your cane; your dress, demeanor, location, etc.  So dont worry about them.  Its Joe Sixpack that you are trying to not spook.

What I've seen of their system, I'm not a fan of.  Way too complicated.  It's a stick.  Hit 'em with it.  But, I'll be honest, if that stuff is your cup-o-tea, then more power to you, I'll not argue with you about it.

I will say that the CaneMasters canes are good quality and well made.  I wish them luck.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jarrod (Mar 19, 2009)

lklawson said:


> It's funny, but in a lot of places (in the U.S., anyway) you can still carry a sword legally.  But, yes, you'd get funny looks (and possibly LEO inquiries).
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



several years back there was a homeless guy in lawrence who always carried a longsword with him.  honestly i don't know the exact difference between a broadsword & a longsword, but it was a big-*** sword anyway.  a girl i knew knew him & said he just carried it to see if he could.  i still see him around town now & then but i haven't seen the sword in a while.

jf


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Mar 19, 2009)

jarrod said:


> several years back there was a homeless guy in lawrence who always carried a longsword with him.  honestly i don't know the exact difference between a broadsword & a longsword, but it was a big-*** sword anyway.  a girl i knew knew him & said he just carried it to see if he could.  i still see him around town now & then but i haven't seen the sword in a while.
> 
> jf



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Martinez


----------



## lklawson (Mar 19, 2009)

jarrod said:


> honestly i don't know the exact difference between a broadsword & a longsword, but it was a big-*** sword anyway.


Depends on who you talk to, but the current general consensus among WMA researchers runs along these lines:

Longsword:
A two-handed medieval, cruiciform, double-edged, roughly symetrical sword. (D&D's "Greatsword")

Broadsword:
A group of swords primarily from the 16th through 19th Century that were designed and intended to be used single-handed with either a basket-hilt or a knuckle-bow. The blade could be straight and symectrical, double or single edged, or curving blade, generally wider in cross-section than a Rapier (which also has a rather variable definition). Examples include the Scottish Basket-hilted Broadsword (aka "basket-hilted claymore"), Military Saber, Schiavona, and the "Backsword."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jarrod (Mar 19, 2009)

ah, that would have been a longsword then.

bill, i heard of that guy some time ago, but didn't know he died.  that's a shame.  

the wiki says he trained judo in europe, i wonder if he pioneered no-gi judo? 

jf


----------



## Joab (Mar 19, 2009)

lklawson said:


> It's funny, but in a lot of places (in the U.S., anyway) you can still carry a sword legally. But, yes, you'd get funny looks (and possibly LEO inquiries).
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
There was a guy in Seattle back in the 1980's who used to carry a broadsword across his back. The first time I saw him I thought he was likely a lunatic, so I kept away with a clear path to exit the scene. I thought of telling him it's illegal to carry a sword in Seattle but thought better of it. He wsas very muscular. Well, I later read an article about the guy in a Seattle newspaper. He called himself Conan, and was really obsessed with mastering a certain type of Japanese swordsmanship. He already had a blackbelt, and was trying to get to the level in which your able to strike an opponent while taking the sword out of its scabbard in one smooth motion. The police had checked him out and he had gone to court. Turns out you can carry a sword in Seattle as long as its not concealed. He was very friendly, I just thought anybody carrying a sword in a big city must be crazy. but an Irish blackthorne walking stick arouses no looks at all and makes a fine weapon.


----------



## Joab (Mar 19, 2009)

lklawson said:


> I'm not a big fan of CaneMasters and here's why.
> 
> They go to great lengths convincing you about how innocuous appearing and easily overlooked canes are and then market products which only nominally look like canes. Every passing Joe Sixpack can look at one of the CaneMasters specials and automatically think "weapon." (Excepting their "Stock Canes" of course, which can be purchased much less expensively elsewhere).
> 
> ...


 
I have never so much as gotten a hard look from carrying my Irish blackthorne walking stick. Once a bus driver waited for me when he stopped at a bus stop and looked a little peeved when I ran to the bus. Hey, you can carry a walking stick even if you can run.


----------



## Dwight McLemore (Mar 19, 2009)

Here is a couple of sites that might be of use.  The paper copies I have are dated  9/29/04 so not sure if they are still up and running. 

www.geocities.com/glendoyle/bata

http://ejamas.com/jmanly/articles/2002/jmanlyart_gree_0502.htm

http:www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi2005/is_1_33/ai_56027317/pg-2

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/4933/batause.html

The last one is Ken Pfrenger site who is one of the unsung heros of this form of faction fighting.

Hope this helps

Dwight


----------



## Ken Pfrenger (Mar 23, 2009)

Thank you Col! It means alot coming from you.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2009)

jarrod said:


> several years back there was a homeless guy in lawrence who always carried a longsword with him. honestly i don't know the exact difference between a broadsword & a longsword, but it was a big-*** sword anyway. a girl i knew knew him & said he just carried it to see if he could. i still see him around town now & then but i haven't seen the sword in a while.
> 
> jf


In Maryland, if it is over four inches, the only rule that I know of is that it cannot be concealed.

A long sword is a relative term.  

It was a sword longer than a short sword, which generally had a blade no longer than from fingertip to elbow.  This is likewise relative, as my fingertip to elbow measurement is about twenty inches, whereas Tom Cruise's is probably about fifteen. 

I own several long swords, one of which has a blade of over three feet in lenth, another of which has a blade of about two and a half feet.  A my shinken is in between.  

Broadsword had to do with the width of the blade, though they were generaly also longswords.

Terminology would also have been dependent upon the era in which the sword was produced; a sword that would have been a 'broad sword' in the ninteenth century would probably not have rated as such in the fourteenth.  Then again, that may have depended upon your geographical region as well.

Daniel


----------



## tellner (Mar 24, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In Maryland, if it is over four inches, the only rule that I know of is that it cannot be concealed.



I have some unkind speculations about the length laws and specific biometric statistics applicable to (male) sheriffs, chiefs of police and legislators... :wink:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 24, 2009)

I wish they were in vogue or style here in the states.


----------



## lklawson (Mar 25, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Broadsword had to do with the width of the blade, though they were generaly also longswords.
> 
> Terminology would also have been dependent upon the era in which the sword was produced; a sword that would have been a 'broad sword' in the ninteenth century would probably not have rated as such in the fourteenth. Then again, that may have depended upon your geographical region as well.


I've not seen medieval texts referring to a two-handed, symmetrical, cruciform sword as a "broadsword." It's always been "longsword" or a geographically/culturally appropriate term but never "broadsword."

Is there one that I'm missing? If so, please let me know, I've got an apology to go make.

In the late 18th through early 20th C. "Broadsword" was specific to a basket hilted, single handed, broad bladed weapon.  The Blade could be either straight and symmetrical or curved.  It could be either double edged or single edged.  Cav. Sabers and basket hilted "claymores" were both considered "broadswords."  You can see this in the curved saber that Gaspard teaches in his manual and in the "claymore" system of the "Regimental Broadsword" style.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 25, 2009)

No apologies  I could be off base.  Just going on what I have understood, based on info that was given to me so long ago that I couldn't tell you where I picked it up.  

I do know that broad vs. thin terminology was used regarding post rennaisance blades on rapiers, but I'm not certain regarding a cruciform sword.

More than likely, I should be the one making apologies.

Daniel


----------



## lklawson (Mar 25, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> I wish they were in vogue or style here in the states.


I live in Ohio and carry a cane daily.  Usually it is a knobbed cane.  No one has ever given me any flack for it.

Go ahead and carry your blackthorn if you want.  Just don't look like you're "looking for trouble" and people will largely ignore you - when they're not holding open the door.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 25, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> No apologies I could be off base. Just going on what I have understood, based on info that was given to me so long ago that I couldn't tell you where I picked it up.


Well, Longsword ain't my area of study. I've taken a seminar here and there and several of my friends are Longsword fencers (both German and Itallian tradition), so I admit that I've not seen every possible medieval text, much less gone looking for them.



> I do know that broad vs. thin terminology was used regarding post rennaisance blades on rapiers, but I'm not certain regarding a cruciform sword.


Gah! Rapiers! Was there EVER a less well defined type? Take a wide-ish but not TOO wide blade and put a cross-bar hilt on it and you've got an Arming Sword. Take the same blade, put a basket hilt on it and you've got a Broadsword. Take the same blade and put a Complex Hilt on it and you have an early Transitional rapier.

And it gets worse. My Rapier friends tell me (and I must believe them) that some Rapier systems don't work well with the longer late period rapiers but work great with earler period which SOMETIMES have broader blades.

Further, many Broadsword systems work just fine with a wide-ish Transitional blade and a Complex rapier hilt.

To stir the pot even more, most Military Saber/Broadsword systems, at least as they're recorded in manuals, tended to be far simpler than Rapier/dueling systems. Generally designed to teach the highest percentage techniques and strategies to raw recruits in massed formations. The guys designing the systems and writing the manuals were usually accomplished fencers with chops in one or more of Broadsword, Rapier, Court Sword, etc. (Think of [edit - strikethrough "Angelo"] McBane, Gaspard, Hope and the like)

I repeat: GAH!

You should also note that Rapiers and Broadswords (like the saber, claymore, and schiavana) were roughly contemporaries. Rapiers were generally considered civilian weapons while broadswords were considered military weapons. (note: I'm painting with broad strokes here.)



> More than likely, I should be the one making apologies.


Bah.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jarrod (Mar 25, 2009)

i dunno guys, it just looked like the sword ah-nie carried in the conan movies.  

i've held off on buy a blackthorn for a while because i didn't know if i could pull it off in public.  

jf


----------



## Joab (Mar 27, 2009)

lklawson said:


> I live in Ohio and carry a cane daily. Usually it is a knobbed cane. No one has ever given me any flack for it.
> 
> Go ahead and carry your blackthorn if you want. Just don't look like you're "looking for trouble" and people will largely ignore you - when they're not holding open the door.
> 
> ...


 
Have a good day.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 13, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i dunno guys, it just looked like the sword ah-nie carried in the conan movies.
> 
> i've held off on buy a blackthorn for a while because i didn't know if i could pull it off in public.
> 
> jf


Generally, sticks and canes are the one weapon that you can pretty much carry without any real hassle from the law.  A blackthorn actually looks like an older man's cane, rather than like a weapon.  

Intersting, blackthorn fighting became popular in Ireland because at one point, the regular citizens were prohibited from arming themselves with the contemporary weapons of the day.  Given the nature of the public carrying of weapons, a blackthorn is a good choice. 

Develop the technique when you are young and it will be well and good when you are old.  Then you can be like Yoda.

Daniel


----------



## jarrod (Apr 13, 2009)

all good points.  but by 'pull it off in public', i was referring to fashion, not the law.  i'm so pretty, you know, i don't know if carrying a big stick would just draw too much attention to myself.

jf


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 13, 2009)

Jedi robes make it seem a lot more appropriate in fashion terms.

Daniel


----------



## jarrod (Apr 14, 2009)

i read comic books, watch horror movies, & love heavy metal; i think i'm already flirting enough with full-blown nerdness without adding jedi robes.

jf


----------



## lklawson (Apr 16, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Intersting, blackthorn fighting became popular in Ireland because at one point, the regular citizens were prohibited from arming themselves with the contemporary weapons of the day. Given the nature of the public carrying of weapons, a blackthorn is a good choice.


The Irish, at the time, also engaged in a kind of "Recreational Violence" that was driven by many factors including culture, religion, and politics.

The dynamics of the Irish Factions and Faction Fights is convoluted but (if you're a masochist) interesting.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## girlbug2 (Apr 16, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Develop the technique when you are young and it will be well and good when you are old. Then you can be like Yoda.
> 
> Daniel


 
Off topic perhaps, but I always wondered if Yoda's "old man shuffling along with a cane" thing was playacting? After all, he could flip around and fight like a spry young'un!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 16, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> Off topic perhaps, but I always wondered if Yoda's "old man shuffling along with a cane" thing was playacting? After all, he could flip around and fight like a spry young'un!


Beware age and experience, hehe.  

Also, if one's techniques are not soley dependent upon strength and brute force, so long as they're in good condition and able to move confidently, that old gent or lady with a cane could likely surprise an unsuspecting rufian.

Daniel


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 16, 2009)

Long post here - in the public domain, however, so I'll quote it.  Great read:

Google Books: A Story-Teller's Holiday, by George Moore, 1918.



> CHAPTER 18.
> 
> ONE day in my walks in the high wood I spied a man standing on a boulder in the midst of the river, seemingly undecided whether he should jump to the next one; and knowing the pool to be deep between the boulders I tried to dissuade him.
> 
> ...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 30, 2009)

My Cold Steel blackthorn came in last week.  I have been carrying it since getting it and have gotten no weird looks.  Often, people are deferrential to me.  One person who knows me, but does not see me often asked if I had had an injury, but I just said that it is a walking stick, an affectation.  They were releived.

It is a handy item.  The Coldsteel blackthorn is actually polypropylene with a wood veneer on the handle.  Definitely a solid piece, though at some point, I will pick up an authentic blackthorn.

I am working on a form and will see if GM Kim will let me put it into our demos.

Daniel


----------



## jarrod (Apr 30, 2009)

i got my brother a blackthorn from pug ugly for christmas last year.  i don't have a large basis for comparison, but it seemed like a fine stick.

http://www.lollysmith.com/irblwast2.html

jf


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 30, 2009)

Looks more authentic than mine.  Looks very nice too!  I particularly like the almost pistolgrip like end.

Daniel


----------



## chinto (May 4, 2009)

i used to barrow my uncles blackthorn when he was alive and i was visiting him in SF.  great feel and well a great weapon.

by the way great and fun way to get some good techniques with it is go find a group of SCA people and play a bit in armor.  you will be surprised how that kind of full speed work teaches you things


----------



## kidswarrior (May 5, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i got my brother a blackthorn from pug ugly for christmas last year.  i don't have a large basis for comparison, but it seemed like a fine stick.
> 
> http://www.lollysmith.com/irblwast2.html
> 
> jf


I've also had one of these for a number of years. Very lightweight and fast, as well as small enough to be inconspicuous. One thing I've been meaning to do, though, is find a rubber tip for it. The tip is smaller than most sticks. If anyone hs a good resource, would love to hear about it.


----------



## jarrod (May 6, 2009)

kidswarrior said:


> I've also had one of these for a number of years. Very lightweight and fast, as well as small enough to be inconspicuous. One thing I've been meaning to do, though, is find a rubber tip for it. The tip is smaller than most sticks. If anyone hs a good resource, would love to hear about it.



they come in varying sizes; the one i got my bro was 1 1/4" thick.  it felt a little awkward to me at first, but after playing around with it i got used to it.

as far as tips, they have rubber & brass ferrules at the site http://www.lollysmith.com/wlstac.html
i got a brass one to go with my brother's stick, it slipped right on & was firmly in place with a couple taps.

jf


----------



## lklawson (May 6, 2009)

kidswarrior said:


> One thing I've been meaning to do, though, is find a rubber tip for it. The tip is smaller than most sticks. If anyone hs a good resource, would love to hear about it.


Hardware stores and home improvement stores.  

Hardware stores will sell rubber tips in various sizes and home improvement stores as well, also rubber chair feet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## kidswarrior (May 6, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Hardware stores and home improvement stores.
> 
> Hardware stores will sell rubber tips in various sizes and home improvement stores as well, also rubber chair feet.
> 
> ...


 Never thought about that...


----------

