# School Spankings



## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

I saw this today, and needless to say, I was shocked.



> WASHINGTON - Paddlings, swats, licks. A quarter of a million schoolchildren got them in 2007  and black children, American Indians and kids with disabilities got a disproportionate share of the punishment, according to a study by a human rights group.
> Even little kids can be paddled. Heather Porter, who lives in Crockett, Texas, was startled to hear her little boy, then 3, say he'd been spanked at school. Porter was never told, despite a policy at the public preschool that parents be notified.


 
Now, my mother has told me stories of back when she was in school, but obviously times change, so what was happening back then, could be very different today.  In any case, IMHO, I don't feel that its the job of anyone in a school, to hit, spank or anything of that nature.  Obviously if 2 kids are fighting, then its necessary to touch them to seperate them, but there is a big difference between that and spanking someone.


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## jkembry (Aug 20, 2008)

MJS,

I have just read the same thing.  I was shock at the disproportion that was mentioned.

I know that today, at least where I am at, paddlings are frowned upon.  I think this is mainly because society is law suit happy and the schools are don't want to go to court.  I do know when I was growing up in the 60's and 70's, that if I got paddled at school....my parents were told and I got another one at home.

Truth be told, depending on the reason...and age...this may still be a good way to do things.  But there needs to be a sound policy in place to govern it.

My opinion only.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

jkembry said:


> MJS,
> 
> I have just read the same thing. I was shock at the disproportion that was mentioned.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, and I was thinking about the law suits as well.  When I was growing up, if I did something that was worthy of a spanking, I got one.  Now, some people may confuse that with abuse, but there is a big difference between a parent giving their child a whack on the rear end, vs. slamming the kid into a wall.  

On the other hand, some may also look at this with the same glasses that they're using to view the curfew thread.  Again though, another big difference.  Some may think that the school and the police have no right to do things to their kids.  With the police, they're enforcing a law. The school has other options to discipline kids, ie: detention, suspension, etc.  I just don't think that a school should have the right to physically touch a child in that manner.  I'm sure there're some kids that probably do deserve a whack..lol...but it should be the parents that give it.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 20, 2008)

simple for me.

When i was in school, and we acted up, we could get licks.

Kids acting up in school was rare.

Now they dont give kids licks, and acting up is common place. Students assaulting teachers is more common than ever. My step daughter graduated in 06, and she would tell us daily that some kid on one of her classes stood up to and back talked, and sometimes out right threatened the teacher.

High schools USED to have ONE ROOM for detentions, now they have whole buildings.

Paddling isnt abuse. 

spanking isnt abuse.

When i was a kid, visiting a friends house, i didnt act a fool, know why? I knew his parents would take a belt to me, take me home, tell my mother and she would take a belt to me too.

So guess what? I didnt act up.

In My opinion, NOT spanking or paddling a child is a more serious form of abuse.


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## kamishinkan (Aug 20, 2008)

Absolutely AGREE!!!!! When I was in school, or at a friends house, the paddling was just as if I was at home. When I got home, my mother cared about me some more (no regard for double jeopardy).
 Today to spank a child is considered abuse, I believe abuse is not spanking your children! Our world is getting so wierd.


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## Tez3 (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't believe in spanking children at all, I've never had to touch any child of mine nor any I've taught. Perhaps I'm just scary rofl but seriously I've never had a need for it. 
Parents of the children I teach do ask me how I do it but I can't tell them really. Do you remember though at school there were always the teachers who would walk in the door commanding silence and good behaviour just by their demeanour? there were also the others that you never noticed when they walked in the door. I had mostly the former.
My parents never touched me or my brother either.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't think its the place for the school to spank.  That should be done at home if the parents think that it is warrented.  I believe in spanking.  Forget this time out crap.  Thats B.S..  I know if my parents put me in time out I'd be worse because I'd be think the whole time how I could get away with whatever it was i did next time.  I believe in spanking not child abuse, there is a difference.  The problem is people want to report others for the slightest little spanking and call it abuse. And Child Social Services will snatch your kid away from you in a heart beat (weather its warrented or not).  all they need is a complain from someone.


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## Tez3 (Aug 20, 2008)

As I said I don't believe in spanking children ( adults...well thats a whole different post lol). I've not done the time out thing either, my kids however knew when they'd done wrong.
What I saw recently that made me laugh sadly was a small child who hit his brother then his mother hitting him saying  'you mustn't hit people' and he learned what from that? 
I just don't believe pain or fear of pain is the way to teach children (or animals)


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## zDom (Aug 20, 2008)

Have you seen what schools are like nowadays?

I don't think they should keep/bring back paddlings; I think they should arm teachers with TASERS.


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## stickarts (Aug 20, 2008)

If my child were to misbehave the school would have every right to suspend them or take other disciplinary action, however, not to lay a hand on them. The teacher that did the paddling would soon be receiving a paddling by me!


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## theletch1 (Aug 20, 2008)

I got exactly one paddling from a teacher when I was in elementary school (back in the dark ages).  The school called my folks to tell them and, yes, I got another when I got home.  I didn't need many spankings as a child.  The ones I got I needed.  My children haven't needed a whack on the but since they were toddlers.  Notice I said a whack...one... to stop dangerous behavior in it's tracks.  I don't do time out.  I find mind numbingly boring busy work to keep them busy while they consider what it is that they've done that they're gonna get grounded for.  As for a school doing spanking... nope.  Of course, if discipline were properly enforced in the home there would be much less need for discipline in the schools and certainly no need for spanking.  There simply aren't any consequences for acting up in school anymore.  I knew when I got my spanking that I had another one coming when I got home.  Therefore, I pushed the limits only so far.  Teachers have more than enough to do while at school without having to worry about issuing corporal punishment.  They SHOULD be able to call a parent and know, without a doubt, that the problem would be taken care of that afternoon.  Allowing it in schools would soon become expecting it in schools and be just one more things "parents" (yes, that's in quotes) in this country could push off onto some government entity.


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2008)

stickarts said:


> If my child were to misbehave the school would have every right to suspend them or take other disciplinary action, however, not to lay a hand on them. The teacher that did the paddling would soon be receiving a paddling by me!


Suspending a kid from school isn't a punishment, it's a reward.


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> simple for me.
> 
> When i was in school, and we acted up, we could get licks.
> 
> Kids acting up in school was rare.


Same here.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 20, 2008)

To echo some...when I was coming up if I got a paddling at school, I got another one when I got home. I wasn't the best kid in class either so I got more than my fair share. I do feel that if I hadn't gotten them I'd probably be a hinderance to society; I was (and still am) quite thick headed. lol

My line of thought falls in with Robert Heinlein's views of discipline (and probabably Batmans...lol) 

It's been proven time and again that appealing to people's base instinct for self preservation is sometimes the best, if not the only way to encourage them to behave properly. 

In an idealistic world, there'd be no need for spankings. In an idealistic world one could use logic to reason with a child (or adult for that matter) in order to have them understand why it's important not to misbehave. But we don't live in an idealistic world, in reality there's simply no reasoning with some and the only thing they understand is a smack across the back-side. 

Spanking is by no means the only form of punishment. I'm not advocating beating the crap out of people every time they break a rule.  I believe there are "degrees" or "levels" of punishment that should reflect the severity of the bad behavior. Simply put, the punishment should fit the crime. That being said, corporal punishment should be one of those levels. 

Spare the rod, spoil the child.


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## Big Don (Aug 20, 2008)

There used to be a lot more humiliation that went along with being caught in the wrong.


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## Traditionalist (Aug 20, 2008)

Big Don said:


> There used to be a lot more humiliation that went along with being caught in the wrong.


 

I was a teacher for a little while and I did notice one thing. The kids that were polite, respectful and never needed a spanking had parents that were the same and enforced that on thier children, which I do say proudly sounds like a lot of parents that are talking on this thread. But the kids I always thought needed a good swat also had parents that needed a good swat. They were rude, loud, and generally sad people. Most of the time the kids that were get spankings are looking for a little attention and they might not necessarily want a spanking but they never came back and blamed me for getting one. They knew they did wrong. I grew up with corporal punishment and believe in it. I do not believe in abuse though. And do believe that we can trace most of our problems in school to thier home life. Once parents start parenting then there might not be this thread in the future.


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## donna (Aug 20, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> As I said I don't believe in spanking children ( adults...well thats a whole different post lol). I've not done the time out thing either, my kids however knew when they'd done wrong.
> What I saw recently that made me laugh sadly was a small child who hit his brother then his mother hitting him saying  'you mustn't hit people' and he learned what from that?
> I just don't believe pain or fear of pain is the way to teach children (or animals)



I totally agree.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 20, 2008)

The odd thing is that I am a firm advocate of corporal punishment, despite the other elements of my personality that would suggest I shouldn't be.

I know without a doubt that without the significant amount of corporal punishment meted out to me as a youngster, I would be a much more violent and unpleasant man than I am now (or like to think I am anyhow ).

Children are not 'little adults' as the Victorians lead us to believe.  They have the capacity to reason like a human and to make associations between actions and consequences but they do not have a 'moral sense' for quite some years.  Punishment and reward are matched horses in growing people to be part of society and, sad to say, it is the case that for some of us more willful individuals fear of reprisal is a far more effective method of training than expectation of reward for good behaviour.

As in adult life, Sensei Pain is the most motivating of teachers.


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## stickarts (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray said:


> Suspending a kid from school isn't a punishment, it's a reward.


 
If thats the case then the student needs to learn the value of education, which needs to start at home. I am all for discipline in school, however permitting them to strike my child isn't acceptable.


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2008)

stickarts said:


> If thats the case then the student needs to learn the value of education, which needs to start at home. I am all for discipline in school, however permitting them to strike my child isn't acceptable.


I agree that children need to learn to value education and that it should start at home.  There are lots and lots of values that children need to learn, and they need to start at home.

Does the school system your children attend have a policy that allows spanking?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 20, 2008)

There are two ways to look at the purpose of school:

To only be a place of education

To produce better citizens.

in my day, it was the latter. We had morality based teachings, there was a difference between good and bad,right and wrong, and if you broke the rules, there was punishment, up to and including getting licks

it worked

what they are doing now clearly doesnt work


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> There are two ways to look at the purpose of school:
> 
> To only be a place of education
> 
> To produce better citizens.


 
I look at them as one and the same...especially in a society that is supposed to be a republic/democracy. 

It's essential to that type of societies survival! 



Twin Fist said:


> in my day, it was the latter. We had morality based teachings, there was a difference between good and bad,right and wrong, and if you broke the rules, there was punishment, up to and including getting licks
> 
> it worked
> 
> what they are doing now clearly doesnt work


 
Amen to that brother!


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## stickarts (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray said:


> I agree that children need to learn to value education and that it should start at home. There are lots and lots of values that children need to learn, and they need to start at home.
> 
> Does the school system your children attend have a policy that allows spanking?


 
No. I am fortunate that the elementary school my daughter attends has a great program, some great teachers, and they do a great job communicating anytime there is a problem. Its the high school I am worried about.  We will look at private schools at that time.


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## Big Don (Aug 20, 2008)

stickarts said:


> Its the high school I am worried about.  We will look at private schools at that time.


The inexpensive Private HS here (the wilds of Central CA) is $475 a month...
The one out in the sticks is $750 + you supply the books...


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## Kacey (Aug 20, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> I got exactly one paddling from a teacher when I was in elementary school (back in the dark ages).  The school called my folks to tell them and, yes, I got another when I got home.  I didn't need many spankings as a child.  The ones I got I needed.  My children haven't needed a whack on the but since they were toddlers.  Notice I said a whack...one... to stop dangerous behavior in it's tracks.  I don't do time out.  I find mind numbingly boring busy work to keep them busy while they consider what it is that they've done that they're gonna get grounded for.  As for a school doing spanking... nope.  Of course, if discipline were properly enforced in the home there would be much less need for discipline in the schools and certainly no need for spanking.  There simply aren't any consequences for acting up in school anymore.  I knew when I got my spanking that I had another one coming when I got home.  Therefore, I pushed the limits only so far.  Teachers have more than enough to do while at school without having to worry about issuing corporal punishment.  *They SHOULD be able to call a parent and know, without a doubt, that the problem would be taken care of that afternoon.  Allowing it in schools would soon become expecting it in schools and be just one more things "parents" (yes, that's in quotes) in this country could push off onto some government entity.*



I was never paddled in school - but I never needed it, either; if I had, I'd have been doing extra chores until my next birthday.  I know this because my sister got into sufficient trouble to get paddled at school _once_, and did all of my chores and hers for several months following.

As a teacher, most of the kids I see are wonderful - but the ones who are unwonderful have parents who are similarly unwonderful.  There are a small percentage who have something organically wrong, true - but paddling won't help them anyway.

My job is to teach - in my case, reading and math.  Certainly, I attempt to teach, and model, proper behavior to my students - but if it's not happening at home, it's very unlikely to happen in the school.



Traditionalist said:


> I was a teacher for a little while and I did notice one thing. The kids that were polite, respectful and never needed a spanking had parents that were the same and enforced that on thier children, which I do say proudly sounds like a lot of parents that are talking on this thread. But the kids I always thought needed a good swat also had parents that needed a good swat. They were rude, loud, and generally sad people. Most of the time the kids that were get spankings are looking for a little attention and they might not necessarily want a spanking but they never came back and blamed me for getting one. They knew they did wrong. I grew up with corporal punishment and believe in it. I do not believe in abuse though. *And do believe that we can trace most of our problems in school to thier home life. Once parents start parenting then there might not be this thread in the future.*



I agree.  See above.



Ray said:


> I agree that children need to learn to value education and that it should start at home.  There are lots and lots of values that children need to learn, and they need to start at home.



I agree.  Again, see above.



Ray said:


> Does the school system your children attend have a policy that allows spanking?



As a teacher, I am not allowed to paddle or spank children.   I have, on occasion, broken up fights, but the contact there was minimal, usually grabbing the shoulder or neck of a shirt - but as was pointed out, that is different from a spanking.  Discipline should begin at home; sadly, there are some children for whom it does not.  The schools try, but we are *not* our students' parents, nor should we be.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> When i was a kid, visiting a friends house, i didnt act a fool, know why? I knew his parents would take a belt to me, take me home, tell my mother and she would take a belt to me too.
> 
> So guess what? I didnt act up.


 
IMO, I don't think its the job of another parent to take over the discipline, in this case, spanking.  Again, I'm not against a parent giving their kid a whack on the rear.  It happened to me.  And if I acted like a fool at a friends house, my parents were made aware of it and I was dealt with when I got home.



> In My opinion, NOT spanking or paddling a child is a more serious form of abuse.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray said:


> Suspending a kid from school isn't a punishment, it's a reward.


 
Can't disagree with that.  It may have long term effects down the road, but at the time...you're right, its a vac.  Of course, one would hope that the parents would do their job at home and not let that suspension turn into a vac.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray said:


> I agree that children need to learn to value education and that it should start at home. There are lots and lots of values that children need to learn, and they need to start at home.


 
Agreed!!!  Kids learn what they live.  The parents need to take more responsibility and teach their kids right from wrong in the beginning, not wait until they're 15 and out of control.  

Many times I avoided the spanking because I got 'the look.'  You know..that look that your parents give you that basically says, "Knock it off or else!!!!"   I knew better. 



> Does the school system your children attend have a policy that allows spanking?


 
AFAIK, there isn't a spanking policy in schools here, but I may be wrong.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 21, 2008)

well, one problem these days, that i have seen first hand is kids now DARE parents to do anything to them, the kids THREATEN to call CPS on the parents.

sot he parents dont discepline the kids, then the teachers have to deal with them.


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## Drac (Aug 21, 2008)

Iv'e been paddled a couple of times and when i got home I got it AGAIN, no one..My kids acts up in school give him a swat..


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## Kreth (Aug 21, 2008)

While I firmly believe that the current general lack of respect shown by kids towards adults is directly tied to the decline in corporal punishment; if I found out that my child was spanked at school, he/she wouldn't be the only one getting a whipping...


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## stickarts (Aug 21, 2008)

Big Don said:


> The inexpensive Private HS here (the wilds of Central CA) is $475 a month...
> The one out in the sticks is $750 + you supply the books...


 
The private school that we will look at here is not cheap. I am not quitting either of my jobs soon.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 21, 2008)

Question: For those that say schools should not spank because that is the parents job, should schools also not teach sex education because that is also the parents job?

We repeatedly hear that schools must teach students sex education because it is not being done in the home.  If its not done in the home, due to the possible consequences, the schools must do it.

Yet, if parents are not disciplining their children, we do not hear the same arguement.  In fact, we hear vehement opposition to spanking in schools.  And we all know the consequences of not disciplining children.

Now, I do not have a problem with the schools doing one and not the other, but are the arguments consistent?  For most, I would have to say that they are probably not.


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## Tez3 (Aug 21, 2008)

Why do people asume that if you don't spank your children they aren't being disciplined? there's plenty of people who do spank their children and it doesn't teach them anything other than how to hit their children when they are older. Spanking doesn't show you care, it shows you have no other way to reason with your child or teach them how to behave. It's a very easy answer to a problem. 
When you are teaching martial arts do you hit people to teach them discipline? 
Smacking children doesn't have to be the only way it's perfectly possible to uphold discipline and correct wrong behaviour without inflicting pain. The important thing is that children are brought up with respect and learn to respect, they live what they learn, a truism I know but none the less valid for that. 
If anyone had laid a hand on one of my children I'm afraid they would have been very sorry. No one touches my children and no, they aren't spoiled brats now they are adult.
The problems with children today are more to do with dysfunctional families, lack of knowing how to bring children up, the stresses of modern life where both parents have to work to maintain a reasonable lifestyle and the abdication of responsibilites that has been encouraged in people for a long time now. Children are time consuming, they demand attention and have minds like sponges, too often they are neglected in that they are given all the material things they could want but are having their minds neglected as well as being in need of human warmth and contact. Too often they are rushed from activity to activity, ballet, swimming, karate, scouts etc etc, when what they really want and need is time with their parents, playing, or reading aloud, drawing, cooking etc. This is the time you teach them discipline and how to behave,what is right and what is wrong from close personal interaction with their parents ( or parent, it doesn't have to be two).


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 21, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Why do people asume that if you don't spank your children they aren't being disciplined? there's plenty of people who do spank their children and it doesn't teach them anything other than how to hit their children when they are older. Spanking doesn't show you care, it shows you have no other way to reason with your child or teach them how to behave. It's a very easy answer to a problem.
> When you are teaching martial arts do you hit people to teach them discipline?
> Smacking children doesn't have to be the only way it's perfectly possible to uphold discipline and correct wrong behaviour without inflicting pain. The important thing is that children are brought up with respect and learn to respect, they live what they learn, a truism I know but none the less valid for that.
> If anyone had laid a hand on one of my children I'm afraid they would have been very sorry. No one touches my children and no, they aren't spoiled brats now they are adult.
> The problems with children today are more to do with dysfunctional families, lack of knowing how to bring children up, the stresses of modern life where both parents have to work to maintain a reasonable lifestyle and the abdication of responsibilites that has been encouraged in people for a long time now. Children are time consuming, they demand attention and have minds like sponges, too often they are neglected in that they are given all the material things they could want but are having their minds neglected as well as being in need of human warmth and contact. Too often they are rushed from activity to activity, ballet, swimming, karate, scouts etc etc, when what they really want and need is time with their parents, playing, or reading aloud, drawing, cooking etc. This is the time you teach them discipline and how to behave,what is right and what is wrong from close personal interaction with their parents ( or parent, it doesn't have to be two).


 

I am not saying that spanking is the only way, but, how does one reason with a two year old???

I know that my daughter is very smart, therefore she pushes what she can get away with, very knowingly.  My reasoning with her had very little effect.

And spanking does not just teach a person to hit, nor is it a tool of the lazy parent.  It is a very effective tool, if used in the right way.  Just like martial arts.  If used correctly, it is neither offensive nor abusive.  It is merely a tool to accomplish ones goal.  

Look at how many people on this thread have been spanked.  Do we now just go around hitting people to solve our problems.  I dont think so.  And, I have also seen the number of people who havent been given a good ***-whooping who do nothing but hit and abuse others all the time.

And as you have admitted that you have never spanked your children, I would tell you that it is not an easy thing to do to spank your child.  I do know, from experience of having been spanked and having spanked, that it is a very effective tool.

There is no one answer to the issue of child discipline.  They all learn in their own way.  Some learn from a good spanking, others may not.  One could never lay a hand on a child, and they end up a mass murderer.  One may get spanked as a child and be the epitome of restraint.


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## Kacey (Aug 21, 2008)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Question: For those that say schools should not spank because that is the parents job, should schools also not teach sex education because that is also the parents job?
> 
> We repeatedly hear that schools must teach students sex education because it is not being done in the home.  If its not done in the home, due to the possible consequences, the schools must do it.
> 
> ...



I am a teacher.  Sex ed is part of the health curriculum, which is how it is taught, at least in my district, right alongside the importance of eating right, getting enough sleep, and regular exercise.  While it is objectionable to some parents, who have the legal right to keep their children out of that portion of the curriculum should they so choose, it is a relatively straightforward set of information that can be imparted in a reasonably short amount of time.  Discipline, in contrast, is a lifelong endeavor - while the schools can reinforce whatever discipline is provided at home, if they are not being taught discipline at home, then chances are whatever the school does will not be sufficient.  That is the primary difference that I see.  

An example:  when a student got frustrated in my class and last year and walked out, saying "This class is whacked.  **** you!!!" I called his mother... her response (once I got past the 3 minutes of obscene, profanity-laced rap song that replaces a ring for those who call her) was "He's an adult now, he's responsible for himself, you let the principal handle it - leave me alone".  The child in question was 13; his mother was 26.  He spent the summer moving from friend's house to friend's house every several days; his mother had no idea where he was and really didn't seem to care.  He told the school social worker that he didn't want to be like his father, who got his mother pregnant and then left (Dad is currently in jail) - so to make sure, he always uses a condom.  I'll repeat - this child is 13.  What exactly do you think the school can do in terms of discipline with him without the support of his mother?  But we _did_ succeed in teaching him how to use birth control - preventing him from becoming a parent as early as his mother did.  It's not much... but it's better than nothing.


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## donna (Aug 21, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Why do people asume that if you don't spank your children they aren't being disciplined? there's plenty of people who do spank their children and it doesn't teach them anything other than how to hit their children when they are older. Spanking doesn't show you care, it shows you have no other way to reason with your child or teach them how to behave. It's a very easy answer to a problem.
> When you are teaching martial arts do you hit people to teach them discipline?
> Smacking children doesn't have to be the only way it's perfectly possible to uphold discipline and correct wrong behaviour without inflicting pain. The important thing is that children are brought up with respect and learn to respect, they live what they learn, a truism I know but none the less valid for that.
> If anyone had laid a hand on one of my children I'm afraid they would have been very sorry. No one touches my children and no, they aren't spoiled brats now they are adult.
> The problems with children today are more to do with dysfunctional families, lack of knowing how to bring children up, the stresses of modern life where both parents have to work to maintain a reasonable lifestyle and the abdication of responsibilites that has been encouraged in people for a long time now. Children are time consuming, they demand attention and have minds like sponges, too often they are neglected in that they are given all the material things they could want but are having their minds neglected as well as being in need of human warmth and contact. Too often they are rushed from activity to activity, ballet, swimming, karate, scouts etc etc, when what they really want and need is time with their parents, playing, or reading aloud, drawing, cooking etc. This is the time you teach them discipline and how to behave,what is right and what is wrong from close personal interaction with their parents ( or parent, it doesn't have to be two).



I agree with Tez. Spanking is the lazy way out . I have raised 5 children to be respectful upstanding adults that I am proud of. There are other ways to discipline children, even young children, without getting physical. *Maybe  parenting classes should be included in the school curiculum, so that people dont think it is ok to hit their children and bully them into submission.*
I came from an era where I was caned at school (my second day at pre-primary was my first taste of fear). All it taught me was that adults hurt children.
My childhood memories are of being belted with whatever was handy every day, by my mother ,and then caned at school for such trivial things as talking in class.
I grew up vowing to never subject my children to that same fear. Look at the face of your child next time you "spank" them and see the fear. Is that what you want from your kids?, for them to fear you? And if you do desire fear, what are you doing raising precious children!You dont deserve them!
Also when you spank them, do you really know your own strength? what seems like a harmless swat to you, can cause real pain and often injury to delicate growing bodies.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2008)

Reasoning with a two year old is not difficult, I used to run a playschool and have dealt with many toddlers, Ok it takes time and effort but if you've ever watched Supernanny you'll see being firm and in control will do it. I watched Supernanny programmes when she was in American and the universal theme running through it all was that the children ( and many of them were being spanked) thought they were in control not the adults. I believe parents have for a long time been told by so called child experts that the must let their children do basically whatever they want otherwise their children will grow up stifled or as bad people. This is nonsense, children who are taught there are boundaries and that those boundaries are put there by you to protect them because they are loved will flourish and grow up to be the people you are proud of. Too many parents want to be friends with their children when they should be parents.
There's always parents who will show little or no interest in their children as kacey has pointed out, this may be for a number of reasons and teachers seem to be expected to fill in, in fact teachers these days seem to be expected to do a lot more than teaching formal subjects they seem to be expected to raise the children too.
When I started school children could go to the toilet on their own, managing their clothes fastening themselves, they could eat with a knife and fork properly, they could dress and undress themselselves for PT and most importantly they had been taught how to listen. Now children are starting school with none of those basic skills. I find more and more when I teach children that they have never been taught how to be quiet and listen. When children start MA classes with us even the older ones think it's perfectly alright to interrupt while your speaking instead of waiting until you've finished. The modern take on this is that you mustn't teach your children basic manners because it will stifle their creativity, so they can speak whenever they feel like it to everyones detriment. This is where you get the disrespect and unruliness from, with each child thinking they are the most important one. 
I don't see and probably never will why smacking is necessary, people cite the old days when everyone was smacked and consequently children were well behaved as a reason to smack, that's wrong IMO, they reason they were well behaved is because they were treated as children to be brought up not as little adults or as the parents best firends. Bedtimes were adhered to, routines established, children didn't have the worlds troubles dumped on them, they were allowed to use their imaginations and play outside with friends. Schools gave them a formal education and parents knew they were responsible for all the other parts such as sex education, manners etc. Now it's left to schools and the hard pressed teachers. 
For a long time now I've worried about this trend to adultise children, it comes from having so many 'child care experts' around, starting with Dr. Spock, I have to say sadly this trend came across from America, it hasn't affected Europe hugely as Eurpoean children are still raised the 'old fashioned' way. Go into any restaurant in France and you will see well behaved children sat at the table eating politely. On the beach it's consiered every adults repsonsiblity to look out for the children, all the children! A child falls over by you, you pick them up and help them until mum or dad comes, no child is unwatched in the sea, toddlers and babies are petted by everyone, a child hurt or upset is everyones concern and that's on a huge beach! It's that general care for children that makes a difference whereas what's starting to happen in the UK is the attiude comes from the States that if you do anything you can be sued for it so it's best not to do anything.
In Europe the children literally still know their place, it's to be children. Every child deserves that right, to be a child.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 22, 2008)

> I came from an era where I was caned at school (my second day at pre-primary was my first taste of fear). All it taught me was that adults hurt children.
> My childhood memories are of being belted with whatever was handy every day, by my mother ,and then caned at school for such trivial things as talking in class.


 
Dont misunderstand.  There is a difference between spanking (a swat or two on the butt with a hand) and abuse (hitting with a cane).

Just some anecdotal evidence.  My ex-wife has primary physical custody of my daughter.  About once or twice a month she would call me to have me talk to my daughter because she was being bad in school.  This was before my ex allowed me some reasonable visitation (long story). Now, the key to this is that my ex does not spank my daughter

Anyway, when I started my visits, my daughter would get unruly.  I would try to talk with her about behaving, but it did not work.  Then I started to spank her a few times when she got out of hand.  To say that within one or two visits I did not have to spank her anymore would be an understatement.  The phone calls from the ex stopped, she started behaving in school, and did not have nearly the problems that she did before.



> I agree with Tez. Spanking is the lazy way out


 
A judicial use of physical punishment requires thought.  It is not bullying them into submission.  It can be an effective tool to stimulate understanding of disciplinary issues.

I would challenge anyone that says that spanking is abuse to come up with studies to show that children who were not spanked are better behaved and better adjusted then those who were.  I venture to guess that any evidence that you might find would be inconclusive, or statistically insignificant at best.




> Schools gave them a formal education and parents knew they were responsible for all the other parts such as sex education, manners etc. Now it's left to schools and the hard pressed teachers.


 
And I only bring up the sex education issue to point out the inconsistencies in peoples arguments.  It is not the responsibility of the schools to replace irresponsible parents in one instant, but it is in another.  How about that for teaching our children, that adults cant make an argument make sense.


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## teekin (Aug 22, 2008)

I am going to weigh in here with Tez. My mother never never spanked me. She had the skin stripped off her back with a piece of a combine belt  by her father because his dinner was late. She vowed to never strike her children. When I misbehaved she would sit me down and explain how my misbehavior had a negative effect on her. If I mouthed off, she would ask me why I wanted to hurt her. The end result was my feeling awful, crying, and promising to never do it again, and Meaning it. I would do anything to avoid one of Those talks from my mom.
 When I lived with my dad there was no reasoning just" Whack." That very soon turns into "**** you, do your worst". My behavior never got any more civilized just more sophisticated. What the corporal punishment taught me was, men who are mentally and emotionally weak use physical force (violence) and intimidation as a means of domination/control. It was a good lesson, and has been reinforced on a few occasions but does a father want to teach this to is daughter?  I hope not.
 Perhaps your daughter's behavior improved it's because you have a loving relationship with her that she was missing not because you struck her? 

Lori M


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## Twin Fist (Aug 22, 2008)

i love it when peopl who were never spanked, then turn around and say 'spanking leads to...."

uh, how would you know?

I was spanked, hell i was beaten by my mom.

but never without my deserving it.

And I am no killer, not an abuser, not unbalanced, etc.

Some kids only need a talking to. Some kids need a belt upside thier ***.


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## zDom (Aug 22, 2008)

A swat on the butt hurts for a couple minutes, worst case scenario.

Hurtful words can scar a person for a lifetime.

So what is REALLY more harmful to a person? I don't understand people who think that being "hit" is such a horrible thing. There are worse things in life.

And lack of discipline is one of them.


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## Mimir (Aug 22, 2008)

If the school's had more ways to be able to control the kids, the schools wouldn't have nearly the problems they do today.  If the kid knows that the teacher or principal can't really do anything to them, then they will go wild.  Of course much of this goes back to the philosophy of the parents who think their kid is an angel no matter that he is setting the cat on fire.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 22, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> I am going to weigh in here with Tez. My mother never never spanked me. She had the skin stripped off her back with a piece of a combine belt by her father because his dinner was late. She vowed to never strike her children. When I misbehaved she would sit me down and explain how my misbehavior had a negative effect on her. If I mouthed off, she would ask me why I wanted to hurt her. The end result was my feeling awful, crying, and promising to never do it again, and Meaning it. I would do anything to avoid one of Those talks from my mom.
> When I lived with my dad there was no reasoning just" Whack." That very soon turns into "**** you, do your worst". My behavior never got any more civilized just more sophisticated. What the corporal punishment taught me was, men who are mentally and emotionally weak use physical force (violence) and intimidation as a means of domination/control. It was a good lesson, and has been reinforced on a few occasions but does a father want to teach this to is daughter? I hope not.
> Perhaps your daughter's behavior improved it's because you have a loving relationship with her that she was missing not because you struck her?
> 
> Lori M


 
I would venture to say that it was due both to the spanking and the relationship.  I am not silly enough to believe that just spanking a child is the end of discipline.  I explain why I do what I do.  I am sure that some of it sinks in.

But you reminded me of the very last time I had to spank her.  We were in the store, and she did not want to walk with me.  I told her several times why she needed to, but she still refused.  When I went to get her, she pulled away.  When I picked her up, she tried to get away.  Two swats on her butt solved that problem.  Then I explained the situation to her, I did not just leave it at that.  She actually told me that she was sorry.

I would wonder what you all do/did when your child was pulling and hitting to try to get away from you in places like stores and such.  Or when a child is trying to do something that could be physically injurious.

I do find an interesting trend though.  It seems that those of you who are against spanking have either been beat as children, or have parents who were beat.  I would guess that that has something to do with why they are against spanking, which is not beating.  I can certainly understand why you would be hesitant to even spank.  My father was beat at times by my grandfather, and yet he was able to spank me with restraint.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 22, 2008)

I can see what some people who are strongly against corporal punishment are coming from, I just believe that no one solution applies to everyone.  

Likewise, corporal punishment takes many forms and how it is meted out is one of the factors that can turn it from knee-jerk reaction to reasoned punishment.

I got a good hiding what felt like (but wasn't) most days for some infraction or other but I never got the feeling that the punishment was coming from anywhere but a desire on the part of my parents to mould my actions to something resembling civilised behaviour.  

What I had done wrong was considered, explained and the regret my father had that he had to smack me again was very clear.  It was never a capricious act or one done because my parents were too tired or couldn't be bothered to try any other methods.

No other methods worked with me.  I was wilful, stubborn and 'burdened' with the knowledge that I was cleverer than everyone else around.  I reckoned I could do what I wanted and didn't see that the constraints that applied to others also applied to me.  Try some of the 'modern' methods on me and I would have been away as soon as your back was turned.  Persistence would have won you nothing as I can teach mules things about stubborness even today.

Some children don't need such strong tactics.  They are genetically pre-disposed to be civil and cooperative.  Others are not so constructed and one of the old saws from the scriptures that shows that sometimes those long-gone clerics knew a thing or two about social control; "spare the rod and spoil the child" is a timeless truism in such cases.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2008)

Actually I've never said spanking leads to anything but I do argue against the fact the fact that many people think spanking = discipline, not spanking = no discipline.
Many posters here are being intolerant of the fact that many people don't believe in smacking a child. Many are equating those of us who don't smack nor find they need to smack as bad parents. 
Hey if you want to smack your kids fine but don't label us as irresponsible because we don't want to. 
5-0 Kenpo you proved an earlier point of mine when you said you hit your child for hitting.
 Part of bringing up kids is anticipation, in a supermarket my child would be sat in the trolley seat clipped in, when out they would be on a rein (don't know what you call them but children always used to be on them, meant they could walk by themselves but not wander or get into trouble) when they were older I would make shopping an experience the children could enjoy, we'd make it a game. If a tantrum is in the offing diversion tactics work wonders when out, ignoring it (or having a tantrum yourself is mindblowing for a kid lol) when indoors or when they are yelling and screaming just tell them to do it louder, they soon cotton on it's pointless because mum doesn't panic and jump to their commands. Children will push to see what their limits are and even smacking is gaining attention so if they've made you smack them, guess who won? Not you, them. They pushed your buttons. Bet you didn't feel good about smacking did you? and after the pain was over for the child what did they really learn? Children learn to say sorry really quickly in life, it's a magic word with adults. I've seen children hit others and say sorry immediately, not because they were but because they knew the adult would make them say it and nothing else would happen so they said it first and be forgiven immediately. 'Ah look little Johnnie didn't mean to hit you he said sorry" yeah right. 
Sukerkin, I bet you would have behaved for me lol! I can made male soldiers behave by myself so kids are a piece of cake lol!:whip1:
These aren't modern methods by any means, it's good old fashioned 'headology' as Terry Pratchett would say.


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## teekin (Aug 22, 2008)

5-0 Kempo and Sukerkin, you both make it very good points. Communication, meaningful loving communication between parent and child seems to a critical part of discipline, especially when physical punishment is involved. I would hazard that Kempo 5-0 is correct that those of us who have been beaten or had our parents beaten can not bring ourselves to strike those we care about.
 Lori M


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## Sukerkin (Aug 22, 2008)

Irene, that sounds like a challenge to me (I'm trying hard to shoehorn a double-entendre in but it's late and I am failing ) :lol:.  Of course, I'm all trained and good now (mostly ) so it would hardly be fair on me to take you up on that, particularly as another part of my ingrained mind-set is to be as co-operative and politely accomodating to members of the fairer sex as is humanly (or logically) possible .

To re-iterate, I'm not in the slightest sense gainsaying that non-physical methods don't work for some children, just trying to cast off this mantle of new-age psycho-babble that says that physical punishment permanently damages a child in their adult life.  The other myth that needs throwing in the skip is that such physical punishment is 'unnecessary' in all cases.

The particular theory that draws my ire is the one that says that hitting a child only teaches them that hitting is the solution to problems.  That's pure sophistry.  Speaking from personal experience, the discipline I received in my youth was directly responsible for my non-violent stance when I reached my 'teens.  I learned that even when you win a physical fight, you still lose because you get punishment from someone stronger than you are.  A very valuable life lesson and  it is the practical-proof-by-experiment inversion of the supposed 'truth' (espoused largely by people with no children) that being smacked as child means you will use physical force before all else as an adult.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 22, 2008)

Call me irritated by this response. In fact, very irritated as I think about it more.



Tez3 said:


> Actually I've never said spanking leads to anything but I do argue against the fact the fact that many people think spanking = discipline, not spanking = no discipline.


 


> 5-0 Kenpo you proved an earlier point of mine when you said you hit your child for hitting.


 

How do you resolve these two statements that you put in the same post. On the one hand, you say that you never said spanking leads to anything. But in the very same post you said I proved a point of yours that I hit my child for hitting, thus implying that it is my hitting of her leads her to hit others.

And here is your earlier post to which I believe you were refering:



> there's plenty of people who do spank their children and it doesn't teach them anything other than how to hit their children when they are older.


 
So yeah, you did say that spanking leads to something.

And you need to re-read what I said. I never said that I hit her for hitting. I stated that I swatted her twice on her butt for refusing to obey me in a store and *pulling away from me*. Stop twisting what I said to suit your own argument. I am speaking plain English.



> Many posters here are being intolerant of the fact that many people don't believe in smacking a child. Many are equating those of us who don't smack nor find they need to smack as bad parents.
> Hey if you want to smack your kids fine but don't label us as irresponsible because we don't want to.


 
No one in this entire thread (and I re-read it all just to be sure) ever said that those who do not spank their children are irresponsible. To the contrary, in fact, you and others have said that those who do spank are irresponsible and abusive of their children. So give me a freakin break on this one.

And dont pretent that *hey if you want to smack your kids fine* is your true feelings on the matter. You have made it plainly clear that you believe that those that do are abusive, unthinking, and uncreative monsters.



> Part of bringing up kids is anticipation, in a supermarket my child would be sat in the trolley seat clipped in, when out they would be on a rein (don't know what you call them but children always used to be on them, meant they could walk by themselves but not wander or get into trouble) when they were older I would make shopping an experience the children could enjoy, we'd make it a game. If a tantrum is in the offing diversion tactics work wonders when out, ignoring it (or having a tantrum yourself is mindblowing for a kid lol) when indoors or when they are yelling and screaming just tell them to do it louder, they soon cotton on it's pointless because mum doesn't panic and jump to their commands. Children will push to see what their limits are and even smacking is gaining attention so if they've made you smack them, guess who won? Not you, them. They pushed your buttons. Bet you didn't feel good about smacking did you? and after the pain was over for the child what did they really learn?


 
I could tell from both the tears and her behavior afterwards who won. I did. Her behaviour improved immensly, and since, I have not had to lay a hand on her. Not only does she behave well around me, but is better with her mother and others as well. 

And its not about pushing buttons, as you ignorantly (in the dictionary sense of the word) claim. As I said before, it is about the reasoned use of physical punishment to reinforce behavior. I have never hit my child out of frustration or anger, and for you to say otherwise is insulting.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

"I would wonder what you all do/did when your child was pulling and *hitting* to try to get away from you in places like stores and such."

Kenpo 5-0 you asked this and I answered. On the *specific point of hitting a child who has hit someone I do believe it's an inappropriate punishment.*
Don't you dare to presume to put words into my mouth and don't you  presume to know what I think about people who smack children. I've been on MT long enough that people know I say exactly what I mean, if I thought people who smacked children were monsters I'd say so, no worries. I don't and all I'm doing is responding with my view, an alternate view,
Why are you so defensive if you believe you are right?


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> Irene, that sounds like a challenge to me (I'm trying hard to shoehorn a double-entendre in but it's late and I am failing ) :lol:. Of course, I'm all trained and good now (mostly ) so it would hardly be fair on me to take you up on that, particularly as another part of my ingrained mind-set is to be as co-operative and politely accomodating to members of the fairer sex as is humanly (or logically) possible .
> 
> To re-iterate, I'm not in the slightest sense gainsaying that non-physical methods don't work for some children, just trying to cast off this mantle of new-age psycho-babble that says that physical punishment permanently damages a child in their adult life. The other myth that needs throwing in the skip is that such physical punishment is 'unnecessary' in all cases.
> 
> The particular theory that draws my ire is the one that says that hitting a child only teaches them that hitting is the solution to problems. That's pure sophistry. Speaking from personal experience, the discipline I received in my youth was directly responsible for my non-violent stance when I reached my 'teens. I learned that even when you win a physical fight, you still lose because you get punishment from someone stronger than you are. A very valuable life lesson and it is the practical-proof-by-experiment inversion of the supposed 'truth' (espoused largely by people with no children) that being smacked as child means you will use physical force before all else as an adult.


 
Oo er missus!
I was never smacked as a child ( though I dare say a least one person on this thread will think I should have been) nor were any of my friends and we are talking 50 years ago here, we weren't little angels by any means but punishments for wrong doing were meted out and lessons learned.
My only point about what you learn from smacking is in relation to one particular thing, that *you cannot teach a child not to hit someone by* *hitting them in turn.* I cannot see what that teaches other than you can hit someone as long as you are bigger. I make no comments on smacking for other reasons nor am I judging anyone who does smack their child other than questioning it's value in *this one point.* I'm not nor have I ever said that smacking leads to people thinking they can then hit people but Ireally do question the use of corporal punishment when the offense is one of violence.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> "I would wonder what you all do/did when your child was pulling and *hitting* to try to get away from you in places like stores and such."
> 
> Kenpo 5-0 you asked this and I answered. On the *specific point of hitting a child who has hit someone I do believe it's an inappropriate punishment.*
> Don't you dare to presume to put words into my mouth and don't you presume to know what I think about people who smack children. I've been on MT long enough that people know I say exactly what I mean, if I thought people who smacked children were monsters I'd say so, no worries. I don't and all I'm doing is responding with my view, an alternate view,
> Why are you so defensive if you believe you are right?


 

Quite frankly, I am using your own words against you, and you seem unable to defend what you said  when confronted by them.

You did not just question spanking children, you outright condemed it.  I dont know how you could sit here and say otherwise.

And you mis-read what I said then, intentionally or not.  I asked the question you stated, yes.  But then you said I hit my child for hitting, which was not the case.  Perhaps you need to be a little bit more careful in the formation of your comments.

And just as you have gotten defensive when confronted just now, how even more so if someone said that you were a bad parent.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Quite frankly, I am using your own words against you, and you seem unable to defend what you said when confronted by them.
> 
> You did not just question spanking children, you outright condemed it. I dont know how you could sit here and say otherwise.
> 
> ...


 
Oh dear, we are upset aren't we? My dear man, I'm never defensive, I attack.... always.
Yes I condemn the smacking of children but no I don't think if you smack you are a bad parent. It's the act of smacking I condemn not the parent. Hate the sin, love the sinner sort of thing. I didn't say you hit your child I said you proved my point about hitting children to stop them hitting other when you asked that question which was how else do you punish a child that hits.


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## Kacey (Aug 23, 2008)

I will start by saying that I do not agree with corporal punishment _as a general thing_ - but there are times when it is appropriate.  

For example, I used to live in an apartment which had cement stairs leading down to the basement, which contained the recreation room and the laundry facility.  The stairs to the basement were open at the top and the bottom, although there was a railing around the top; the stairs were individual slabs of cement supported by a metal framework, with open spaces between the stairs.  They were often wet, and therefore slippery.  One of my neighbors had two children, one of whom was about 14 months old, and the other about 6 years old, at the time I am describing.  His mother was attempting to watch him, his older brother, and a dog, who were all playing in the courtyard.  The younger boy kept approaching the stairs, and his mother kept telling him "no" (not very effective with kids that age), and bodily removing him from the area.  She didn't want them to leave the courtyard, as the traffic was fairly heavy as soon as you left the apartment building's property.  Finally, she swatted him _once_ on his diapered bottom when he approached the stairs yet again; her hand was cupped, and the noise was considerably greater than any contact the boy could have felt - and he never went near the stairs again except accompanied by his mother, more from startlement than anything else.  In the general course of events, comparing the potential psychological damage from that one swat to the risk of the boy falling down the stairs and seriously injuring or killing himself, I found that appropriate.  Others may not.  But there are times when the child is too young, or the danger too immediate, for some children, for talking to them about the problem to be effective.


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## teekin (Aug 23, 2008)

Kacey said:


> I will start by saying that I do not agree with corporal punishment _as a general thing_ - but there are times when it is appropriate.
> 
> For example, I used to live in an apartment which had cement stairs leading down to the basement, which contained the recreation room and the laundry facility.  The stairs to the basement were open at the top and the bottom, although there was a railing around the top; the stairs were individual slabs of cement supported by a metal framework, with open spaces between the stairs.  They were often wet, and therefore slippery.  One of my neighbors had two children, one of whom was about 14 months old, and the other about 6 years old, at the time I am describing.  His mother was attempting to watch him, his older brother, and a dog, who were all playing in the courtyard.  The younger boy kept approaching the stairs, and his mother kept telling him "no" (not very effective with kids that age), and bodily removing him from the area.  She didn't want them to leave the courtyard, as the traffic was fairly heavy as soon as you left the apartment building's property.  *Finally, she swatted him once on his diapered bottom when he approached the stairs yet again; her hand was cupped, and the noise was considerably greater than any contact the boy could have felt - and he never went near the stairs again except accompanied by his mother, more from startlement than anything else.  In the general course of events, comparing the potential psychological damage from that one swat to the risk of the boy falling down the stairs and seriously injuring or killing himself, I found that appropriate.*  Others may not.  But there are times when the child is too young, or the danger too immediate, for some children, for talking to them about the problem to be effective.



Kacey, I don't consider that to be corporal punishment. She did not cause the child to suffer pain, she used psychology. The cupped hand on diapered bottom made a big noise that startled the child. Well done Mom. A judicious use of one well placed "swat" when all else had failed and the consequences of not disciplining the child were dire. I find this appropriate as well. Now if Mom had backhanded the child, I'd have issues with that.
Lori M


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Aug 23, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear, we are upset aren't we? My dear man, I'm never defensive, I attack.... always.
> Yes I condemn the smacking of children but no I don't think if you smack you are a bad parent. It's the act of smacking I condemn not the parent. Hate the sin, love the sinner sort of thing.


 
It is obvious that we have two different definitions of what being defensive means.

And again, just as I said before, you condemn spanking in all situations.  How reasonable is that?  



> I didn't say you hit your child I said you proved my point about hitting children to stop them hitting other when you asked that question which was how else do you punish a child that hits.


 
That may have been your intent, but it is definately not what you said.  You referred specifically to what I had said about my child.  Not about the question that I had postulated.  Again:



> 5-0 Kenpo you proved an earlier point of mine when you said you hit your child for hitting.


 
That quote, made by you, was never, in any way, uttered by me.  I never said that I hit my child for hitting, which is what you said here.  You are wrong, and refuse to admit it.  

But that's ok.  I believe it goes to show not only myself, but everyone else, exactly where you are coming from, and how you formulate an argument.  People can then go from there.

Honestly, if you do not want to institute corporal punishment with your children, that is perfectly fine.  I don't think that anyone who does believe in it would codemn you for your position.  Even though you believe people do such a thing, no one here has.

However, you have no problem condeming corporal punishment when others do it.  Your position is that people who do so are taking the easy way out.  That is an interesting position due to the fact that you have no idea what it takes to spank a child.  You have said that you have never done so, so how would you know how easy or not such a thing is to do?

You should even recognize the fact that I have never condemned a "failure" to spank a child.  I have said that I believe that corporal punishment is a viable alternative in terms of punishment, however, not the only one.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2008)

I wasn't particularly arguing, I just put my views forward. I'm so sorry if having views that you don't agree with is upsetting for you. 
It's a very emotive subject, in some countries hitting children is banned completely as is the death penalty and the carrying of guns, all subjects that will raise blood pressure on this forum, trying to argue against any of these is always going to like putting your head aboue the parapet.


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## theletch1 (Aug 24, 2008)

The subject is, indeed, one that has and will probably continue to spark much debate.  The key, folks, is to remember that it is the *subject* that is being debated and *not the personalities* that are doing the debating.  It is of the utmost importance that each of us decide not to take anything here personally and, even more importantly, decide not to make anything personal.  It's the whole attack the message not the messenger thing we like to keep going on this site.


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## MJS (Aug 24, 2008)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Dont misunderstand. There is a difference between spanking (a swat or two on the butt with a hand) and abuse (hitting with a cane).


 
Exactly, and IMO, I think this is where some are mixing up the two.  As I said in another post, I was raised where I got that 'knock it off look' and I knew that if I continued, I would get spanked.  As you said, there is a difference between a whack on the rear and leaving a bruise or throwing the kid around the room.  That is abuse.  

People take abuse and a whack on the rear, mix it up, which is why you have kids making threats to call the police, and why parents call the cops and want THEM to raise the child for them. ie: my kid won't listen to me, my kid won't go to school, etc.  Those are a few examples.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 24, 2008)

Quite so, Mike.  That's a point I've tried to make every time this particular hot-potato comes around.


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## Kacey (Aug 24, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Kacey, I don't consider that to be corporal punishment. She did not cause the child to suffer pain, she used psychology. The cupped hand on diapered bottom made a big noise that startled the child. Well done Mom. A judicious use of one well placed "swat" when all else had failed and the consequences of not disciplining the child were dire. I find this appropriate as well. Now if Mom had backhanded the child, I'd have issues with that.
> Lori M



And yet... other people in the courtyard were yelling at her for hitting her child; one threatened to call social services and report her for abuse.  A big part of the problem, as I see it, is that in a laudable effort to prevent abuse, a large selection of discipline tools have been taken away from parents.  Do I think children should be beaten with switches, or belts, or hairbrushes?  No... but there are times when a swift swat - as I described previously and sometimes harder, depending on the circumstances (usually involving safety of the child or others) is appropriate.


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## teekin (Aug 24, 2008)

Kacey said:


> And yet... other people in the courtyard were yelling at her for hitting her child; one threatened to call social services and report her for abuse.  A big part of the problem, as I see it, is that in a laudable effort to prevent abuse, a large selection of discipline tools have been taken away from parents.  Do I think children should be beaten with switches, or belts, or hairbrushes?  No... but there are times when *a swift swat - as I described previously and sometimes harder, depending on the circumstances (usually involving safety of the child *or others) is appropriate.



A swift swat, "a" meaning one open hand to padded bottom, enough to add punctuation  or startle I'm fine with. Repeated swats become more about the parents frustration and lack of parenting skills than concern for the welfare of the child. I think the application of not-so-common-anymore sense would go a long way to clearing up what is and what is not appropriate.
 Lori M


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