# Depth of Contact?



## Kenpodoc (Sep 20, 2004)

Reading these forums I realize that there is a great deal of disagreement about what constitutes adequate contact during a technique.   I see coments like, "Perhaps he did the tech at contact range because contact penatration range would simply kill his UKE." I feel that at the blackbelt level you should strike hard enough to move your opponent.  Obviously there should be control, but you shouldn't move faster than you can strike with control and power.  When I watch the Instructors I most admire they always strike with focus, intensity and power.  After I've been hit, I know I've been hit, nothing is broken, I can still talk and breathe but I know I was hit.  Even little people like Jackie McVicker strike with focus, intesity and with power. I've taken just enough Systema to be really bad at it. But I like their focus on slowing down movement but striking with good depth of penetration and full intention.    I'm curious how much contact other schools teach?

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Michael Billings (Sep 20, 2004)

And I have the bruises, bumps and dings to say that contact is important, especially at higher levels.  We know how hard it is to get lower belt students to strike:

 1) Either with effective power and depth of penetration; or
 2) With reasonable control AND power.

 At black belt we have the luxory of trading licks with control, and not having to worry about a beginner striking a target you are making available for them as part of the learning process.  Even at black there can be mistakes, reference my right kidney and ribs this morning, after a John Sepulveda seminar this weekend, when my partner was a 1st Black.  Nothing intentional on his part, he was just a baby black belt and the upcoming years will refine his control.  But at the higher levels of black, nobody gets hurt that I know of, unless the upper belt wants them to hurt.

 So all in all, I agree!  

 -Michael


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## mj-hi-yah (Sep 20, 2004)

Jeff,

Contact is encouraged early on in our training, but starting at Brown One we really step up the contact level and go for more reality. You should feel what it is like to be hit and know how to properly generate the appropriate response or reaction to your action. Obviously not crushing someone's kidney, but using enough controlled power and penetration to arch their back and actually open up other intended targets. It is difficult to determine your effectiveness otherwise. In addition, taking the hits helps you to understand what it feels like to be properly moved which in turn helps you to know how to properly hit back in that same situation.  

I personally am still in the getting and giving of bruises stage that Michael described so well, and look forward to learning even more refined control. :uhyeah: 

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 20, 2004)

You cannot go fast and hit with the proper depth of penatration without damaging your opponent. You must either miss your oponent with proper depth of penetration and maximum speed or you must take away the depth of penetration with maximum speed. One thing is for certain you cannot hit with proper depth of penetration and maximum speed if you ever want your partner to play Karate with you ever again. Something has to give. What gives is decided from school to school. Missing your opponent all toguether can create bad habbits, but its the only alternative to regulating depth of penatration. Is proper speed something you don't practice with an opponent?... or are you going to play with the three components of a strike: SPEED, ACCURACY, DEPTH OF PENATRATION? Removing one of the three components is what is known, in some circles, as control. If you simply remove speed, when dealing with a partner, you develop a limited sense of control. All three should be toyed with; but, what is your defenition of control? I'm obviously missing something.
Sean


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## SMP (Sep 20, 2004)

*We use a lot of contact based on *
*1. the technique being taught    *
*2. skill level of individuals   *
*3. comfort level of individuals.  *
*Whenever we have a white belt spar for the first time we only have them spar with instructors to help them learn control. For Technique learning we always train with contact and the instructor demonstrates on each student so they understand how their opponent feels.*


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 21, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> You cannot go fast and hit with the proper depth of penatration without damaging your opponent. You must either miss your oponent with proper depth of penetration and maximum speed or you must take away the depth of penetration with maximum speed. One thing is for certain you cannot hit with proper depth of penetration and maximum speed if you ever want your partner to play Karate with you ever again. Something has to give. What gives is decided from school to school. Missing your opponent all toguether can create bad habbits, but its the only alternative to regulating depth of penatration. Is proper speed something you don't practice with an opponent?... or are you going to play with the three components of a strike: SPEED, ACCURACY, DEPTH OF PENATRATION? Removing one of the three components is what is known, in some circles, as control. If you simply remove speed, when dealing with a partner, you develop a limited sense of control. All three should be toyed with; but, what is your defenition of control? I'm obviously missing something.
> Sean


If you get a chance have a Paul Dye or Lee Wedlake or many other similar senior students perform a technique on you.  That is what I mean and the level I aspire to reach.  On line Mr. Tatum's TOW on Thundering Hammers is a good representation of speed, fluidity and power demonstrated without killing his dummy and without compromising the technique.

Jeff


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 21, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> If you get a chance have a Paul Dye or Lee Wedlake or many other similar senior students perform a technique on you.  That is what I mean and the level I aspire to reach.  On line Mr. Tatum's TOW on Thundering Hammers is a good representation of speed, fluidity and power demonstrated without killing his dummy and without compromising the technique.
> 
> Jeff


I didn't ask for a list of people whom have control, I asked, what is your defenition of control, and why is it "better" than his. :asian: 
Sean


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 21, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I didn't ask for a list of people whom have control, I asked, what is your defenition of control, and why is it "better" than his. :asian:
> Sean


I tried to give you an example.  I haven't totally figured out what these people are doing and I can't put it in words, but it is certainly real. As I said I aspire to their level of control, I certainly haven't reached it.

I'm not sure my definition is better than "his" but in the video that started this line I felt that both accuracy and depth of penetration were lacking. In a Demo I would recommend fast and accurate with controlled depth of penetration. In practicing the technique I would also recomend slow and accurate with good penetration. I personally would recommend that accurate always be a part of the equation.

It's just my opinion,

Jeff :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 21, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I tried to give you an example.  I haven't totally figured out what these people are doing and I can't put it in words, but it is certainly real. As I said I aspire to their level of control, I certainly haven't reached it.
> 
> I'm not sure my definition is better than "his" but in the video that started this line I felt that both accuracy and depth of penetration were lacking. In a Demo I would recommend fast and accurate with controlled depth of penetration. In practicing the technique I would also recomend slow and accurate with good penetration. I personally would recommend that accurate always be a part of the equation.
> 
> ...


In my best Robert Smith voice, "That's... ACCURACY!".Then I would venture to say that that is where you are lacking in control. As an attacker you should throw real attacks but alter the target for safty's sake. People need to get blasted when they fail to get off the line of attack, but they don't need the broken jaw. When doing a tech hard and fast, its also ok to take it to the chest or shoulder. This watering down is the hazards of training with partners, and it helps condition you and your partners to move with both speed and depth of penetration. Call it a safe dose of reality, if you will.
Sean


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## TChase (Sep 21, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Reading these forums I realize that there is a great deal of disagreement about what constitutes adequate contact during a technique. I see coments like, "Perhaps he did the tech at contact range because contact penatration range would simply kill his UKE." I feel that at the blackbelt level you should strike hard enough to move your opponent. Obviously there should be control, but you shouldn't move faster than you can strike with control and power. When I watch the Instructors I most admire they always strike with focus, intensity and power. After I've been hit, I know I've been hit, nothing is broken, I can still talk and breathe but I know I was hit. Even little people like Jackie McVicker strike with focus, intesity and with power. I've taken just enough Systema to be really bad at it. But I like their focus on slowing down movement but striking with good depth of penetration and full intention. I'm curious how much contact other schools teach?
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Jeff


 
I strongly believe that you should be able to physically move your dummy against his will when doing any technique.  I think it's much more important to move with fluidity, accuracy, and proper depth than it is to move with speed and forget about the depth.  Kenpo is based on dominating the enemies space.  If you don't practice physically moving your dummy and invading his space with proper depth than when the time comes it won't be there.  Speed is a result of accuracy.  The more you practice something the more you'll naturally become faster at it.  When proper basics and accuracy is observed, speed will be there.  One thing Mr. Pick always says is 1000 times slow, one time fast.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 21, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I strongly believe that you should be able to physically move your dummy against his will when doing any technique.  I think it's much more important to move with fluidity, accuracy, and proper depth than it is to move with speed and forget about the depth.  Kenpo is based on dominating the enemies space.  If you don't practice physically moving your dummy and invading his space with proper depth than when the time comes it won't be there.  Speed is a result of accuracy.  The more you practice something the more you'll naturally become faster at it.  When proper basics and accuracy is observed, speed will be there.  One thing Mr. Pick always says is 1000 times slow, one time fast.


If you practice being slow you will move slow, speed doen't just appear out of nowhere, and speed is not born out of accuracy(physical speed that is). I recognize that there is but one taget in the UKF, but speed training has its place, and to do so you gotta leave that target alone; people will live a lot longer :asian: 
Sean


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 21, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I strongly believe that you should be able to physically move your dummy against his will when doing any technique.  I think it's much more important to move with fluidity, accuracy, and proper depth than it is to move with speed and forget about the depth.  Kenpo is based on dominating the enemies space.  If you don't practice physically moving your dummy and invading his space with proper depth than when the time comes it won't be there.  Speed is a result of accuracy.  The more you practice something the more you'll naturally become faster at it.  When proper basics and accuracy is observed, speed will be there.  One thing Mr. Pick always says is 1000 times slow, one time fast.


Thanks.  I've not met Mr. Pick but I have no doubt that he is impressive.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 21, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> If you practice being slow you will move slow, speed doen't just appear out of nowhere, and speed is not born out of accuracy(physical speed that is). I recognize that there is but one taget in the UKF, but speed training has its place, and to do so you gotta leave that target alone; people will live a lot longer :asian:
> Sean


I believe that if you practice slow you will unconsciously speed up as your neural pathways learn the movement. Speed will come.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't occasionally try to blast through a technique.  I also think that you can't really go faster with power than your torso allows.  This means that unless your body mechanics are right you will do the technique that I call FLUTTERING MOTH.

Real velocity may not change but apparent speed certainly appears to increase with accuracy and removing "the coffee break."  Mr. Planas never looks like he is hurrying but when he hits me it feels as if my senses are overloaded and he clearly take control. Mr. Planas has said that you don't have to move fast, just faster than your opponent.

Each person should choose their own goals,

Thanks for responding,

Jeff


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 21, 2004)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> I believe that if you practice slow you will unconsciously speed up as your neural pathways learn the movement. Speed will come.  That doesn't mean you shouldn't occasionally try to blast through a technique.  I also think that you can't really go faster with power than your torso allows.  This means that unless your body mechanics are right you will do the technique that I call FLUTTERING MOTH.
> 
> Real velocity may not change but apparent speed certainly appears to increase with accuracy and removing "the coffee break."  Mr. Planas never looks like he is hurrying but when he hits me it feels as if my senses are overloaded and he clearly take control. Mr. Planas has said that you don't have to move fast, just faster than your opponent.
> 
> ...


I will agree that both mental and perceptual speed can be increased by working slow; however activated checks don't need the torso involved to be effective, and forcing a bodily commitment to them every time is not essential.
Sean


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 21, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I will agree that both mental and perceptual speed can be increased by working slow; however activated checks don't need the torso involved to be effective, and forcing a bodily commitment to them every time is not essential.
> Sean


Sounds like I need to learn something about activated checks.

Jeff


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## distalero (Sep 21, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> I strongly believe that you should be able to physically move your dummy against his will when doing any technique. I think it's much more important to move with fluidity, accuracy, and proper depth than it is to move with speed and forget about the depth. Kenpo is based on dominating the enemies space. If you don't practice physically moving your dummy and invading his space with proper depth than when the time comes it won't be there. Speed is a result of accuracy. The more you practice something the more you'll naturally become faster at it. When proper basics and accuracy is observed, speed will be there. One thing Mr. Pick always says is 1000 times slow, one time fast.


Absolutely. Well said. The approach of "1000 (relatively) slow, and one time fast" is an old, old approach that easily carries over to many disciplines and practices; certainly true for all martial arts. Speed's nice, but of secondary importance to accuracy, depth, in my view. I think it bears saying that all three of these really still lie "outside" of a focused intent to do a job. They're real, need to be present in some measure, but really they're tools at hand. The real issue, the one that makes a teacher do a silent jump for joy, the one that turns cats into tigers, is a change, from the inside out, that hopefully happens with handling the tools for that 1000 times, or it may happen in the second or third "1000 slow".


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## TChase (Sep 21, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> If you practice being slow you will move slow, speed doen't just appear out of nowhere, and speed is not born out of accuracy(physical speed that is). I recognize that there is but one taget in the UKF, but speed training has its place, and to do so you gotta leave that target alone; people will live a lot longer :asian:
> Sean


Let me rephrase that slightly. I'm not saying go super slow everytime you move or work a technique. What I mean is go as slow as needed to achieve the proper depth and mechanics. Obviously when you start getting comfortable with something you'll be able to speed it up and still gain depth without killing your dummy. Believe me, we like to rip though a technique just as much as anyone else. But you're correct about going slow when you get a hold of that spine...don't want any unneccassary snap, crackle, or pop!:xtrmshock I just wish someone would tell Mr. Pick that!:lol:


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 21, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Let me rephrase that slightly. I'm not saying go super slow everytime you move or work a technique. What I mean is go as slow as needed to achieve the proper depth and mechanics. Obviously when you start getting comfortable with something you'll be able to speed it up and still gain depth without killing your dummy. Believe me, we like to rip though a technique just as much as anyone else. But you're correct about going slow when you get a hold of that spine...don't want any unneccassary snap, crackle, or pop!:xtrmshock I just wish someone would tell Mr. Pick that!:lol:


I hear ya, we are supplimenting our training with UKF stuff(ie Mr. Picks Brother in law) I haven't been able to attend the private lessons he is giving because of my schedule but a lot of it is bleeding over into the classes I attend. :asian: 
Sean


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