# Dan ranks of high level coaches and competitors



## andyjeffries (Jan 4, 2011)

I know some people are "done" with dan ranks and don't consider them important and I know they're a lot less important to competitors past 1st Dan, but I wondered if anyone knew the Kukkiwon Dan ranks of the following people (who are all coaches or competitors/ex-competitors):

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez
LEE Han Won
Juan Moreno
Yang Jin Bang
Arlene Limas
Herb Perez
CHUNG Kuk Hyun
MOON Dae Sung

I just wondered whether competitors and coaches bother getting higher Dan ranks or whether they just get 1st Dan then consider their martial art side "done" as they have the qualification needed to compete.

If anyone can name any other high level competitors/coaches and their Dan ranks I'd be interested (but those are the names that spring to the top of my "I wonder what rank X is..." list).


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

Does the introduction of Poomsae world championships change the need for more advanced Dan rank levels?


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## leadleg (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Does the introduction of Poomsae world championships change the need for more advanced Dan rank levels?


 The divisions for the world poomse or sport poomse are done by age brackets rather than dan rank.
 I think the biggest reason those in the sport seek rank is that one day a lot of them will want to open a school.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The divisions for the world poomse or sport poomse are done by age brackets rather than dan rank.
> I think the biggest reason those in the sport seek rank is that one day a lot of them will want to open a school.


So a 60 year old I Dan can do a VII or VIII Dan level Poomsae?


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## leadleg (Jan 4, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> So a 60 year old I Dan can do a VII or VIII Dan level Poomsae?


 yes,it is now very important to learn all the poomse for your age group,along with the proper stance and movement.
 The KKW has been for quite some time trying to get everyone on the same page with their poomse.The first poomse seminar I attended in San Fransisco had two of the instructors you see in the KKW textbook. They were quite irritated with the stances of many of the participants and blamed a lot of it on kwan styles.
 This is one reason I have a hard time accepting the assimalation theory, the KKW is having trouble getting their own to perform the poomse correctly, and especially with the proper stances. 
I can't imagine them dealing with members who do not even know the poomse at all.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 4, 2011)

leadleg said:


> yes,it is now very important to learn all the poomse for your age group,along with the proper stance and movement.
> The KKW has been for quite some time trying to get everyone on the same page with their poomse.The first poomse seminar I attended in San Fransisco had two of the instructors you see in the KKW textbook. They were quite irritated with the stances of many of the participants and blamed a lot of it on kwan styles.
> This is one reason I have a hard time accepting the assimalation theory, the KKW is having trouble getting their own to perform the poomse correctly, and especially with the proper stances.
> I can't imagine them dealing with members who do not even know the poomse at all.


Yes I can imagine that this is a difficult task. This is what I think was 1 of Gen Choi's greatest accomplishments, getting so many around the world, in 100 plus nations doing his Tuls to the exact standard that he personally taught & then getting them to compete in world championships were the winner was the 1 performing closest to the world-wide standard that he spread almost single handedly, which I think is unprecedented to that level & extent.
This may have been a downside with the issuance of KKW Dan Rank without the mechanisms in place to insure standardization. This may have been done on purpose, but it does make the next step very hard to implement.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 4, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I know some people are "done" with dan ranks and don't consider them important and I know they're a lot less important to competitors past 1st Dan, but I wondered if anyone knew the Kukkiwon Dan ranks of the following people (who are all coaches or competitors/ex-competitors):
> 
> Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez
> LEE Han Won
> ...


Don't know about the names on the list.  I suppose that it depends on the person.  A competitor may continue to test for rank when his or her time in grade allows because while competition may be their main focus at the time, they know that it will not always be.  We all focus on different aspects of our training at different times in our life.  Competitors are no different.

Daniel


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I know some people are "done" with dan ranks and don't consider them important and I know they're a lot less important to competitors past 1st Dan, but I wondered if anyone knew the Kukkiwon Dan ranks of the following people (who are all coaches or competitors/ex-competitors):




Off the top of my head, speaking about Kukkiwon dan rank:

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: Jean no dan, Diana and Mark, 1st Dan, Steven 4th Dan.

LEE Han Won: 7th 

Juan Moreno: 1st or no dan.

Yang Jin Bang: I think he was 5th Dan when he was in the USTU; maybe he is higher now.

Arlene Limas: not sure, heard 4th but maybe wrong.

Herb Perez: 7th

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: was 5th for the longest time; heard got 6th.

MOON Dae Sung: don't know


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## leadleg (Jan 4, 2011)

it used to be you needed at least 3rd dan to protest a decision at jr's or seniors. Jaun and Jean could not file a protest?


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The first poomse seminar I attended in San Fransisco had two of the instructors you see in the KKW textbook. They were quite irritated with the stances of many of the participants and blamed a lot of it on kwan styles. This is one reason I have a hard time accepting the assimalation theory, the KKW is having trouble getting their own to perform the poomse correctly, and especially with the proper stances. I can't imagine them dealing with members who do not even know the poomse at all.




Competition is what standardizes a martial art, or any sport for that matter. If you watch film of competition at WTF International Events twenty five or thirty years ago, you saw a wide variety of styles. Today, everyone at WTF International Events look basically the same. Those who reject competition under the WTF rules no doubt have sparring styles similar to what was shown twenty five, thirty or more years ago. 

We are now getting standardization worldwide through the World Poomsae Championships and other poomsae events. In the past, there was no standardization because there was no reason to standardize. Now there is a reason. 

Styles that do not have a competition format, Hapkido for example, lack technical standardization. Those that do, like Judo, Karate, Kendo, Sumo, Taekwondo, Wushu, or whatever, are standardized.


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## leadleg (Jan 4, 2011)

I agree with you on the most part, but the stances and movements of poomse were being standardized by the KKW long before the world poomse was an event. I was told in 89 or 90 that my stances were too low by a visiting WTF officer. I thought at the time I was doing very well having won at state.After he left my GM said to go back to the stances as he taught them,moo duk kwan LOW.
 I think the seminar in frisco was before the first world poomse competition was held, cuta organised the event.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

leadleg said:


> I agree with you on the most part, but the stances and movements of poomse were being standardized by the KKW long before the world poomse was an event. I was told in 89 or 90 that my stances were too low by a visiting WTF officer. I thought at the time I was doing very well having won at state.After he left my GM said to go back to the stances as he taught them,moo duk kwan LOW.
> I think the seminar in frisco was before the first world poomse competition was held, cuta organised the event.




The Kukkiwon poomsae were always done with that short narrow stance. The pioneers standardized it when they created the poomsae. But worldwide efforts did not begin until the opening of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in 1998, in preparation for the coming World Poomsae Championships a few years later. The point is competition is what makes standardization, because it gives practitioners a reason to standardize.


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## Archtkd (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> Off the top of my head, speaking about Kukkiwon dan rank:
> 
> Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: Jean no dan, Diana and Mark, 1st Dan, Steven 4th Dan.
> 
> ...


 
Hope this in not derailing the thread, but I was wondering what the educational level of those coaches/competitors is. 

I think good education matters very much, even in Taekwondo leadership and it's something we try to instill at our dojang. A number of the orginal kwan founders had good basic eduction, and in fact learned karate while studying in Japanese universities. Some of the current top instructors at the Kukkiwon are also very well educated individuals. The idea that good martial artists should also be well rounded intellectuals was something emphasized by some good lecturers at the 17th KKW instructor course in Chicago.


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## dancingalone (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> *The Kukkiwon poomsae were always done with that short narrow stance. *The pioneers standardized it when they created the poomsae. But worldwide efforts did not begin until the opening of the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in 1998, in preparation for the coming World Poomsae Championships a few years later. The point is competition is what makes standardization, because it gives practitioners a reason to standardize.



Even the Palgwe forms?  I have seen the hypothesis that the Palgwe poomsae still resembled the Japanese kata too much, hence the need for the Tae Geuks.  I'd appreciate hearing your understanding of what the Palgwe poomsae were discontinued so quickly.  Was it a matter of involving all the kwans?


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Hope this in not derailing the thread, but I was wondering what the educational level of those coaches/competitors is.



Off the top of my head:

Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: high school

LEE Han Won: bachelor's degree

Juan Moreno: high school

Yang Jin Bang: Ph.D

Arlene Limas: not sure

Herb Perez: Bachelor's and Juris Doctor 

CHUNG Kuk Hyun: Masters or Ph.D.

MOON Dae Sung: Bachelor's at least


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Even the Palgwe forms?  I have seen the hypothesis that the Palgwe poomsae still resembled the Japanese kata too much, hence the need for the Tae Geuks.  I'd appreciate hearing your understanding of what the Palgwe poomsae were discontinued so quickly.  Was it a matter of involving all the kwans?




The Japanese theory is invalid, and if you overly rely on that, then it will mislead you. When these forms were being created, the pioneers were actively traveling to Japan on exchange trips to learn more about Japanese Karate. For a time, the pioneers sought out knowledge from Japan and emulated Japan. The name of the KTA, Korea Taekwondo Association, for example is a direct copy of the Japan Karate Association (JKA), as was the belt system, dan ranking, uniform, emphasis on competition, etc. Korea's MO is to emulate Japan, with the idea of eventually surpassing them when they have learned all that they can. Nothing wrong with that, many countries try to do the same thing in other areas outside of the martial arts. 

In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk came back from Japan and said no, the long wide stance is a perversion, so the short narrow stances were brought back in. And yes, the Palgwae poomsae were done in short narrow stances, just like the Yudanja poomsae which were created at the same time. The Palgwae poomsae were discontinued as a compromise because the Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan did not have representatives on the KTA Ad Hoc Committee which created the Palgwae and Yudanja poomsae in 1967. In 1972 or so, a Moo Duk Kwan and Jidokwan member was added, and GM LEE Chong Woo became the chairman or supervisor of the committee. That committee created the Taeguek and Koryo 2 poomsae, both of which have walking stances in them. GM PARK Hae Man, with the assistance of GM LIM Chang Soo, was the final editor of the Taeguek poomsae. 

The 1967 and 1972 committees worked differently. In 1967, the committee members agreed to each create two or three new forms, and they would get together and figure out which ones would be included. GM PARK Hae Man created Palgwae 3 & 8, while Song Moo Kwan GM LEE Yong Sup created Koryo 1 and Pyongwon. I want to say that Chang Moo Kwan GM KIM Soon Bae created Chonkwon, but I am fuzzy on that one. 

In 1972, the committee worked together to create the Taeguek and Koryo 2 poomsae as a group. 

So between 1967 and 1972, they kept about half and replaced half with new ones. 

This process was covered in the Modern History book.


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## Archtkd (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> Off the top of my head:
> 
> Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: high school
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting.  Arlene Limas, I read somewhere, is a political science grad of DePaul University in Chicago.


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## puunui (Jan 4, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Very interesting.  Arlene Limas, I read somewhere, is a political science grad of DePaul University in Chicago.



Mark Lopez might have recently graduated from college, I want to say in business with a finance degree. He is working in that field and has one leg out of the Taekwondo world. He wanted to open his own dojang, but I hear Jean said no, so he is about to leave. I believe this is his last Olympics. 

It is said that Jean and Juan got their college education equivilant at the OTC Resident Athlete program, where both spent four years.


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## dancingalone (Jan 4, 2011)

puunui said:


> In 1967, GM LEE Won Kuk came back from Japan and said no, the long wide stance is a perversion, so the short narrow stances were brought back in. *And yes, the Palgwae poomsae were done in short narrow stances*, just like the Yudanja poomsae which were created at the same time.



Thank you for the extended explanation.  I have the set of Palgwe books by Kim, Pyung Soo published by Ohara Publications in the seventies.  If memory serves rightly, he doesn't show a low, low front stance, but neither does he demonstrate the short and narrow positioning of a walking stance.  Wrong from the get-go?  I know MANY who own and used those books as a reference.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 5, 2011)

puunui said:


> Jean, Diana, Mark and Steven Lopez: Jean no dan, Diana and Mark, 1st Dan, Steven 4th Dan.



Wow?  I'm surprised Jean has no dan.  I'd have thought that he'd have a high dan as he runs a school and would need to promote students to 1st Dan to compete.  I guess he knows enough people to do that for him.

Also I thought you had to have Kukkiwon 1st to compete internationally, which I understood from the Lopez book that he had before turning coach.



puunui said:


> LEE Han Won: 7th



I always liked Master Lee's video tapes, I tried to find them on DVD a while back (and tried to convert my VHS ones to DVD) but no luck. :-(



puunui said:


> Juan Moreno: 1st or no dan.
> 
> Arlene Limas: not sure, heard 4th but maybe wrong.
> 
> Herb Perez: 7th



It'd nice to see Herb getting higher Dan rank, I know he's been around forever 



puunui said:


> Yang Jin Bang: I think he was 5th Dan when he was in the USTU; maybe he is higher now.
> 
> CHUNG Kuk Hyun: was 5th for the longest time; heard got 6th.
> 
> MOON Dae Sung: don't know



Interesting that the Koreans generally go for higher dan ranks, while the US coaches have stayed lower.  I guess this shows there is a split in America between sport and martial art as some of the top US coaches don't bother getting higher martial art ranks.

What is the collective's opinion?  Keep up with getting your Dan ranks (so your rank fits with your time in the art) when you're able or not bother once you have "what you need" (whatever you feel that may be).


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 5, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I always liked Master Lee's video tapes, I tried to find them on DVD a while back (and tried to convert my VHS ones to DVD) but no luck. :-(


 
According to his website www.coachhanlee.com all of his videos are available on DVD and they can be ordered at https://jade.secure-host.com/coachhanlee/order.html Maybe it's out of date and needs to be updated, though, if you were unable to order them.

Pax,

Chris


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## StudentCarl (Jan 5, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> According to his website www.coachhanlee.com all of his videos are available on DVD and they can be ordered at https://jade.secure-host.com/coachhanlee/order.html Maybe it's out of date and needs to be updated, though, if you were unable to order them.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


 
I think it's still good. I got those DVDs from there last year.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 5, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> According to his website www.coachhanlee.com all of his videos are available on DVD and they can be ordered at https://jade.secure-host.com/coachhanlee/order.html Maybe it's out of date and needs to be updated, though, if you were unable to order them.



Thanks Chris.  I'll wait until January's pay day rolls around then try ordering them...


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## Markku P (Jan 5, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Interesting that the Koreans generally go for higher dan ranks, while the US coaches have stayed lower.  I guess this shows there is a split in America between sport and martial art as some of the top US coaches don't bother getting higher martial art ranks.



I think this is a little misleading. I know some Korean coaches and former fighters who fought in the national team and they told me that they didn't do higher rank belt tests, they didn't know black belt forms etc. (they still got Kukkiwon certificates 4-6 dan ) Also many countries, schools etc. They don't demand Poomsae from their students and still they get Kukkiwon certificates.


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## Gorilla (Jan 5, 2011)

Arlene Limas is 5th Dan and DePaul Graduate...

Mark Lopez is a College Graduate!!! 1st Dan (on the KKW Web Site)

Steven is a 4th Dan...(on the KKW Web site)

This is what in know for sure!!!!


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## puunui (Jan 5, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> What is the collective's opinion?  Keep up with getting your Dan ranks (so your rank fits with your time in the art) when you're able or not bother once you have "what you need" (whatever you feel that may be).




For many, I don't believe they have the luxury of that choice.


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## Gorilla (Jan 5, 2011)

Name	Current
Poom/Dan	Poom/Dan
No.	Date of
Issuance
JEAN LOPEZ	1 Dan	05923967	2002-10-04


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## Gorilla (Jan 5, 2011)

Name	Current
Poom/Dan	Poom/Dan
No.	Date of
Issuance
JUAN MIGUEL MORENO	4 Dan	05041543	2003-04-05


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## Archtkd (Jan 5, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I think this is a little misleading. I know some Korean coaches and former fighters who fought in the national team and they told me that they didn't do higher rank belt tests, they didn't know black belt forms etc. (they still got Kukkiwon certificates 4-6 dan ) Also many countries, schools etc. They don't demand Poomsae from their students and still they get Kukkiwon certificates.


 
True. In many developing countries yellow belts and green belts can get on the national Taekwondo because they learned how to kick and punch in numerous street fights. A good number of people who land on the national team of my native country Kenya couldn't pass the green belt test at our dojang here in the US and the dojangs of many MT posters. They don't know basics, poomsae, have never done kyupka or self defense. Basically they can fight, but they are not Taekwondoin. They wear Kukkiwon blackbelts awarded through the Kenya Taekwondo Association (with the assistance of the WTF) by virtue of their fighting record alone. The problem with this kind of system is you develop the type of "Taekwondoin" we saw kicking a referee (a master) in the mouth, with coaches urging them on, at the Beijing Olympics. 

On a good note, things are getting better, at least in Kenya, with the increasing popularity of competion poomsae. It's making the KTA to begin emphasing better training in fundamanentals and developing better belt ranking systems. This was was being done in the earlier days of Taekwondo formation in Kenya in the late 1970s, to the 1980s when I started training in Taekwondo there. Things deteriorated in the 1990s when native Kenyans took the reigns of the KTA from the Korean pioneers.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 6, 2011)

Quote: Originally Posted by *Markku P* 

 
_"I think this is a little misleading. I know some Korean coaches and former fighters who fought in the national team and they told me that they didn't do higher rank belt tests, they didn't know black belt forms etc. (they still got Kukkiwon certificates 4-6 dan ) Also many countries, schools etc. They don't demand Poomsae from their students and still they get Kukkiwon certificates."_


Archtkd said:


> True. In many developing countries yellow belts and green belts can get on the national Taekwondo because they learned how to kick and punch in numerous street fights. A good number of people who land on the national team of my native country Kenya couldn't pass the green belt test at our dojang here in the US and the dojangs of many MT posters. They don't know basics, poomsae, have never done kyupka or self defense. Basically they can fight, but they are not Taekwondoin. They wear Kukkiwon blackbelts awarded through the Kenya Taekwondo Association (with the assistance of the WTF) by virtue of their fighting record alone. The problem with this kind of system is you develop the type of "Taekwondoin" we saw kicking a referee (a master) in the mouth, with coaches urging them on, at the Beijing Olympics.
> On a good note, things are getting better, at least in Kenya, with the increasing popularity of competion poomsae. It's making the KTA to begin emphasing better training in fundamanentals and developing better belt ranking systems. This was was being done in the earlier days of Taekwondo formation in Kenya in the late 1970s, to the 1980s when I started training in Taekwondo there. Things deteriorated in the 1990s when native Kenyans took the reigns of the KTA from the Korean pioneers.


This was 1 of the reaspns why I liked the ITF tournament system. They always did 4-5 categories in their world championships. In addition, the ITF Promotion Committee oversees all 4th Dan & above testings & their International Instructor Courses go all over the world.

ArchTKD is there ITF TKD in Kenya?
Who introduced TKD to Kenya?


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## andyjeffries (Jan 6, 2011)

Gorilla said:


> Mark Lopez is a College Graduate!!! 1st Dan (on the KKW Web Site)
> 
> Steven is a 4th Dan...(on the KKW Web site)



How are you knowing their Kukkiwon dan certificate numbers to be able to find them on the Kukkiwon website?  I thought you needed full name, date of birth and kukkiwon dan certificate number?

Thanks a lot for the info though, really appreciated.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 6, 2011)

Markku P said:


> I think this is a little misleading. I know some Korean coaches and former fighters who fought in the national team and they told me that they didn't do higher rank belt tests, they didn't know black belt forms etc. (they still got Kukkiwon certificates 4-6 dan ) Also many countries, schools etc. They don't demand Poomsae from their students and still they get Kukkiwon certificates.



That's a shame :-(


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## andyjeffries (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> For many, I don't believe they have the luxury of that choice.



How so?  Lack of higher grades willing to promote them?  Lack of knowledge of the non-sport side (I'm sure we agree that there is no separation and Taekwondo is both)?


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## terryl965 (Jan 6, 2011)

Andy the problem is most sport people do not do any poomsae or one steps or any self defense, they only practice Olympic style sparring. That is why so many seperate sport/from tradition.

All you need is the person name as it appears on there certificate and there actual b-day to retrieve info from the KKW site.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 6, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Andy the problem is most sport people do not do any poomsae or one steps or any self defense, they only practice Olympic style sparring. That is why so many seperate sport/from tradition.


 
I know quite a few people/groups focus on Olympic sparring but I do find it weird to imagine a club/group that only does that and ignores poomsae/etc.



terryl965 said:


> All you need is the person name as it appears on there certificate and there actual b-day to retrieve info from the KKW site.



Ahh OK, I thought you needed the KKW certificate number too...  Thanks.


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## Archtkd (Jan 6, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by *Markku P*
> 
> 
> _"I think this is a little misleading. I know some Korean coaches and former fighters who fought in the national team and they told me that they didn't do higher rank belt tests, they didn't know black belt forms etc. (they still got Kukkiwon certificates 4-6 dan ) Also many countries, schools etc. They don't demand Poomsae from their students and still they get Kukkiwon certificates."_
> ...


 
That's a topic for another thread I'll post shortly (just for you) under the header Taekwondo in Kenya. There's  very little ITF Tae Kwon Do in the East African nation, actually I only of one dojang that practices the styIe and its located near Nairobi. I know a number of Kenyan Taekwondoin  who learned the ITF style overseas but reverted to the WTF style when they got back home.


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## d1jinx (Jan 6, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> ......Things deteriorated in the 1990s when native Kenyans took the reigns of the KTA from the Korean pioneers.


 
I think we are seeing that here in the U.S. now!!!!!!!


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## puunui (Jan 6, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> How so?  Lack of higher grades willing to promote them?  Lack of knowledge of the non-sport side (I'm sure we agree that there is no separation and Taekwondo is both)?




Many people are limited by what their instructor is willing or able to do for them as far as Kukkiwon promotions go. I find that there is a real reluctance or inability out there to promote people past Kukkiwon 3rd or 4th Dan. Once you get to around that level, the difficulty grows exponentially with each dan.


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## d1jinx (Jan 6, 2011)

puunui said:


> Many people are limited by what their instructor is willing or able to do for them as far as Kukkiwon promotions go.


 
The biggest problem I saw for years were most of the Korean Seniors would not promote high dans and often when they did promote, they did not award a KKW even though they could have(I say Korean cause thats all i knew, there were no high ranking americans that could promote through KKW) . Today, it seems to be biting everyone in the butt. Everyone speaks of the gap in 6th and up Dans. I know a few that I could rely on, but I do not see the whole picture so I truly have no idea of how large or small that gap is.

What I do know, is that it is easier today to promote through KKW than it was during the mid 80's thru mid 2000s and many more american masters can do so...



puunui said:


> I find that there is a real reluctance or inability out there to promote people past Kukkiwon 3rd or 4th Dan. Once you get to around that level, the difficulty grows exponentially with each dan.


 
It would be inability in my and a few close friends case. Beings 5th Dans, we would have to outsource if any of our students needed a 5th (not that I am there but s few of them are) I hope to have never come to that point.... I dont like relying on anyone and have been screwed in the past so I know how it feels. My only desire to achieve past 5th is so I can always have the ability if needed to promote past 4th... but I'm in no hurry!!!!


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## Gorilla (Jan 6, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> How are you knowing their Kukkiwon dan certificate numbers to be able to find them on the Kukkiwon website?  I thought you needed full name, date of birth and kukkiwon dan certificate number?
> 
> Thanks a lot for the info though, really appreciated.




All you need is Nationality, Full Name and Date of Birth...A quick google search will give you that info!!!!! 

The info I posted is accurate!


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## puunui (Jan 6, 2011)

d1jinx said:


> Everyone speaks of the gap in 6th and up Dans. I know a few that I could rely on, but I do not see the whole picture so I truly have no idea of how large or small that gap is.



The gap is huge. Try and add it up. Name all the American borns you know who have Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher AND are promoting people using Kukkiwon certification.




d1jinx said:


> What I do know, is that it is easier today to promote through KKW than it was during the mid 80's thru mid 2000s and many more american masters can do so...


 
Good.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 7, 2011)

Why is it that people are unwilling to promote?


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## puunui (Jan 7, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Andy the problem is most sport people do not do any poomsae or one steps or any self defense, they only practice Olympic style sparring. That is why so many seperate sport/from tradition.




Different practitioners focus on different areas at different parts of their journey. 

I stopped practicing poomsae for over ten years and was severely criticized for it by everyone (except my instructor, who said nothing about it, even when I told him). Then I went to the Kukkiwon Instructor Course (doing 50,000 poomsae repetitions in the process) and my critics shut up about that, and then started criticizing me for talking about the short narrow stances. Now everyone pretty much knows that short narrow stances are the Kukkiwon standard, so then they started saying I was "too strict" or "too traditional" because I try to keep Korean culture and customs within Taekwondo. For example, there is one person out there who is mad at me because I mentioned that we do not address people by their last name only, especially our seniors, because it is disrespectful, from a Korean cultural viewpoint. For example, I never address GM HWANG Kee as simply "Hwang". That guy is still angry and resentful about me saying that, ten years later.


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## Archtkd (Jan 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> \ I try to keep Korean culture and customs within Taekwondo. For example, there is one person out there who is mad at me because I mentioned that we do not address people by their last name only, especially our seniors, because it is disrespectful, from a Korean cultural viewpoint. For example, I never address GM HWANG Kee as simply "Hwang". That guy is still angry and resentful about me saying that, ten years later.



Please expound on that. If addressing a senior, would you say the full names starting with the surname or the first nae. For  example, how would I address  Master Tae-Hyen Park.


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## terryl965 (Jan 7, 2011)

puunui this is true but one must first practice all area's of TKD to insure a more unified TKD. The basic's are what a foundation is built upon, I cannot understand any instructor that would not question a student if they was not practicing poomsae for ten years. During this time was you still in TKD or did you move onto another art or something else like mountain biking? Not tryingto be dis-respectful but ten years is a long time to be doorment with poomsae's. Now there is time's before a major tournament we take off from poomsae and self defense a month or so to just concetrate on competition sparing but then we jump back into the saddle and try to fine tune them again.


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## puunui (Jan 7, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> Why is it that people are unwilling to promote?




I already explained that. One reason is because they don't want to create competition or potential competition. Their student may open a dojang across the street for example. Others feel that they worked really hard, kissed a lot of butt, paid a lot of money and jumped through all kinds of hoops for their Kukkiwon certification and so they are not inclined to simply give it away to their students. Others simply want to keep a certain degree of rank separation between themselves and their students. 

Kukkiwon certification can be analogized to official United States currency. You go to your job and you get paid in dollars. But some people work on a plantation and the plantation owner pays them with plantation dollars instead. That's ok if you live on the plantation your whole life and buy all your goods at the plantation store, but what value is that plantation currency if you decide to leave? Everyone should be paid in dollars, just like everyone should receive Kukkiwon certification, irrespective of your values, political affiliations or whatever else people use to distinguish or separate themselves from others.


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## Master Dan (Jan 7, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> Andy the problem is most sport people do not do any poomsae or one steps or any self defense, they only practice Olympic style sparring. That is why so many seperate sport/from tradition.
> 
> All you need is the person name as it appears on there certificate and there actual b-day to retrieve info from the KKW site.


 
This was quite easy on the old site but I am having trouble on the new site as well as registration? have not tried for 2 months will try again.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 7, 2011)

puunui said:


> I already explained that. One reason is because they don't want to create competition or potential competition. Their student may open a dojang across the street for example. Others feel that they worked really hard, kissed a lot of butt, paid a lot of money and jumped through all kinds of hoops for their Kukkiwon certification and so they are not inclined to simply give it away to their students. Others simply want to keep a certain degree of rank separation between themselves and their students.
> 
> Kukkiwon certification can be analogized to official United States currency. You go to your job and you get paid in dollars. But some people work on a plantation and the plantation owner pays them with plantation dollars instead. That's ok if you live on the plantation your whole life and buy all your goods at the plantation store, but what value is that plantation currency if you decide to leave? Everyone should be paid in dollars, just like everyone should receive Kukkiwon certification, irrespective of your values, political affiliations or whatever else people use to distinguish or separate themselves from others.




That's quite sad.  I want my students to obtain the highest level that I can promote them to.  When they are ready, of course.


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## puunui (Jan 7, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> That's quite sad.  I want my students to obtain the highest level that I can promote them to.  When they are ready, of course.




When you promote your students, do you give them US dollars or plantation money? If it's plantation money, then there are no limits as to what you can promote your students to.


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 7, 2011)

I can not promote someone to the same rank as me, nor can I promote myself to a higher rank.  Of course, if you wish to operate under the thinking that KKW is real dollars and all other TKD outside of it is fake money, then I suppose I could do whatever I wanted.


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## KarateMomUSA (Jan 8, 2011)

puunui said:


> Kukkiwon certification can be analogized to official United States currency. You go to your job and you get paid in dollars. But some people work on a plantation and the plantation owner pays them with plantation dollars instead. That's ok if you live on the plantation your whole life and buy all your goods at the plantation store, but what value is that plantation currency if you decide to leave? Everyone should be paid in dollars, just like everyone should receive Kukkiwon certification, irrespective of your values, political affiliations or whatever else people use to distinguish or separate themselves from others.


This is a good analogy. But then it begs the question, what about the requirements to earn this valid certificate? If there is no standard & a way to insure the standard is met, then the certifcate, like money can become devalued, can it not?
Now I would like to have a KKW certificate, but I don't know Kukki TKD, but I am TKD just like anyone else, am I not? I could even make the arguement that I was TKD before the TaeSuDo guys were, can I not?
So how does the KKW rectify this to the satisfaction of all & what is right?


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## puunui (Jan 8, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> I can not promote someone to the same rank as me, nor can I promote myself to a higher rank.



Why not? Who or what is going to stop you? 




bluewaveschool said:


> I never said fake, I said plantation, in the sense that it is good while you live on the plantation and never venture outside the plantation, just like dojang dan certificates are good if the students never venture outside the dojang.


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## puunui (Jan 8, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> This is a good analogy. But then it begs the question, what about the requirements to earn this valid certificate? If there is no standard & a way to insure the standard is met, then the certifcate, like money can become devalued, can it not?



Value is a personal thing. What you value, I may not and vice versa.




KarateMomUSA said:


> Now I would like to have a KKW certificate, but I don't know Kukki TKD, but I am TKD just like anyone else, am I not? I could even make the arguement that I was TKD before the TaeSuDo guys were, can I not?



Why would you want a Kukkiwon certificate? And no you cannot make the argument that you were "TKD" before the "Taesoodo guys", because some of the Taesoodo guys were also using the name Taekwondo. But this is all moot if you weren't training in Taekwondo prior to 1961.




KarateMomUSA said:


> So how does the KKW rectify this to the satisfaction of all & what is right?



They do it on an individual basis.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 8, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> I can not promote someone to the same rank as me, nor can I promote myself to a higher rank.


It is organizations that set the rules of who can promote to what dan.  Many orgs, and if I'm not mistaken, the Kukkiwon until recently, only allow you to promote to two grades below your own (4th can promote up to second, 5th up to third, etc.).  But if your school is independent, then realistically, you are your own self contained organization.  If you run the school, you are not bound by organizational rules.  Now, for propriety, you may *choose* to adhere to the promotion conventions of other organizations, but you are not bound to.



bluewaveschool said:


> Of course, if you wish to operate under the thinking that KKW is real dollars and all other TKD outside of it is fake money, then I suppose I could do whatever I wanted.


As Puunui explained, plantation dollars, not fake dollars.  Some stores used to issue store dollars, which of course, had to be spent at either that store or at a store in that chain. 

Another way to describe it would be getting a 100.00 Visa gift card for your birthday.  You can spend it in most places, as most retail stores take Visa.  This would be your Kukkiwon certificate.  

But if I receive a gift card or gift certificate from a local, independent retailer, then you would only be able to purchase items in that store.  This would be an independent school's certificate.

Both cards are 'real' and both are worth a hundred bucks, but you can spend one most anywhere while you can only use the other at that specific store.

My hapkido and kumdo certificates are both essentially dojang dans.  I have a TKD dojang dan and I also have a Kukkiwon dan certificate.  The dojang-dans don't affect me; I teach privately and at the school where they were issued.  The only certificate that would receive any recognition outside of where I train and teach is the Kukkiwon cert.

Daniel


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 8, 2011)

It would be accept at other KKW schools, that is.  We've accepted ATA Black Belts before, not because of their ATA cert, but on their honor as a BB.  I would accept a KKW BB the same way, on their word, not on a piece of paper.  Just as if I wanted to join a KKW school, I'd have a long road to advancing, and either I'd prove that I was what I claimed, or I'd wash out.


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## puunui (Jan 11, 2011)

bluewaveschool said:


> It would be accept at other KKW schools, that is.  We've accepted ATA Black Belts before, not because of their ATA cert, but on their honor as a BB.  I would accept a KKW BB the same way, on their word, not on a piece of paper.  Just as if I wanted to join a KKW school, I'd have a long road to advancing, and either I'd prove that I was what I claimed, or I'd wash out.




Most schools I know do that, honor a person's prior rank and then attempt to get them to conform to the school curriculum. That is the dojang instructor's perspective, and this is an example of assimilating people from other organizations and schools. Nothing wrong with that, and in fact, for the sake of school harmony, it is probably better to do it that way. 

The issue becomes more complicated when the head instructor of a school wants to assimilate for Kukkiwon dan purposes. They may acknowledge that they are an old dog who cannot learn new tricks, but their students are young dogs who can and for their sake, they seek out Kukkiwon certification. Students are different in perspective from their instructors, or even their fellow students, in much the same way that parents are different from their children and children are different from each other.


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## puunui (Jan 11, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My hapkido and kumdo certificates are both essentially dojang dans.




I don't know about Kumdo, but to me, all Hapkido dan are dojang dans. This might not have been true when most Hapkido dojang were certified through the Korea Hapkido Association, but with the recent proliferation of Hapkido organizations in Korea, it certainly is now.


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