# Kata method=misery!



## JasonASmith (Dec 11, 2006)

Dear God, I hurt!
My Sempai suggested a method for nailing down kata the other day in class, and I have been doing it the past few days...
Start at the ready position, perform your first move, return to the ready position, add the second move onto the first move and return to the ready position, then add the third move and return, then add the fourth move and return, and on, and on, and on...till you've got the whole kata...
It takes forever, and it beats on your stamina(physical and mental), but it's worth it, I think...Why is it that everytime I try something that my Sempai suggests, I end up beat down and sore? Maybe that's what being Sempai is all about...verkill:


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## exile (Dec 11, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Dear God, I hurt! My Sempai suggested a method for nailing down kata the other day in class, and I have been doing it the past few days...
> 
> Start at the ready position, perform your first move, return to the ready position, add the second move onto the first move and return to the ready position, then add the third move and return, then add the fourth move and return, and on, and on, and on...till you've got the whole kata...
> 
> It takes forever, and it beats on your stamina(physical and mental), but it's worth it, I think...Why is it that everytime I try something that my Sempai suggests, I end up beat down and sore? Maybe that's what being Sempai is all about...



Hey, Jason, that's brilliant! I wanna try that! 

And here's a fun variation: 

Start at the ready position, perform your first move, return to the ready position, add the second move onto the first move and return to the first move position, then return to the ready position, then add the third move and return to the second move position, then to the first move position, then return to ready, then add the fourth move and return to the third move position, and on, and on, and on and _ON_ and on and on...till you've got the whole kata... or are lying dead in a heap...

I dunno... sounds like fun to _me_, anyway! Kind of like `The Twelve Days of Christmas', but in three dimensions, and it's not twelve but twenty five or more...


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## Kacey (Dec 11, 2006)

Progressive patterns - my favorite way to teach!  Just make sure you don't forget the last few moves...


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## zDom (Dec 11, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Why is it that everytime I try something that my Sempai suggests, I end up beat down and sore



Because he is training you well  

That "beat down and sore" feeling is just weakness leaving your body, the sensation of reforming yourself into something superior to your former condition.

Rejoice!


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## searcher (Dec 12, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Why is it that everytime I try something that my Sempai suggests, I end up beat down and sore?


 
Because your Sempai has been down the same road you are on and they are trying to get you to where they are at.

Experience of others makes for a higher increase in our own knowledge at an increased rate.


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## exile (Dec 12, 2006)

zDom;680164That "beat down and sore" feeling is just weakness leaving your body.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Isn't that a Marines saying? `Pain is weakness leaving the body'?  I really like that idea!


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## Grenadier (Dec 12, 2006)

Bah...  Easy to say that line "pain is weakness leaving the body" when you're not the student!  

Seriously, though, the method above can be a very useful teaching tool, for both the beginner and advanced student.  People can benefit from the method in their own ways.  For example, the person who has a hard time putting together sequences, will be able to learn the kata one definite step at a time.  The more experienced person can use this opportunity to refine the techniques.  

This method is especially good for the shorter kata (Tekki / Naihanchi Sho, Empi / Wanshu, etc).  It would, however, be an interesting endurance test for the longer ones (Pichurin / Suparinpei, Goshushiho / Ueseishi, etc).


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## twendkata71 (Dec 12, 2006)

*The more you break down the kata and work in sections, the easier it is to understand the movements. As for the pain. Enjoy it. There is a lot more to come. But the rewards are great for such a small sacrifice.  I like the motto " That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger".:whip1: *


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## The Kidd (Dec 12, 2006)

Since most Katas are a series of movements then if you can break down each series then it becomes easier to learn, whether that series is 4 movements or 6 or whatever.


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## zDom (Dec 12, 2006)

Grenadier said:


> Bah...  Easy to say that line "pain is weakness leaving the body" when you're not the student!



Hehehe but I AM a student still purging weakness with pain 

(Exile: I think it may be something the Marines say, but not sure. I AM sure I like saying it. Makes all the pain seem worth it )


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## matt.m (Dec 12, 2006)

zDom said:


> Hehehe but I AM a student still purging weakness with pain
> 
> (Exile: I think it may be something the Marines say, but not sure. I AM sure I like saying it. Makes all the pain seem worth it )


 
That was not big in my day.....it was more along the line of "Challenge your limits, don't limit your challenges."   Also another big one was....If it isn't hard then it isn't worth it.

The big reason why the Marines don't like the "Pain is weakness leaving the body" is because being shot is painful, oh well I am done rambling.

Physical training = hard-> therefore worth it, etc.  You guys know what I mean.


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## exile (Dec 12, 2006)

matt.m said:


> The big reason why the Marines don't like the "Pain is weakness leaving the body" is because being shot is painful, oh well I am done rambling.



Hi Matt---I like the ideas behind those other sayings also. The reason I asked about that one in particular is because I saw a guy somewhere wearing a Marines T-shirt which had that slogan on it. It struck me that that that was kind of an interesting way to think about pain, and it does make a lot of sense in, say,  the context of a heavy iron workout... I guess the idea was that the pain they're talking about is pain that you voluntarily take on. 

But I've always had the same feeling that things that are easy aren't worth doing (or more specifically, things that come easily to me don't hold my interest, because the're no challenge to them). I'm much more attracted to activities and domains of knoweldge that are difficult for me to `get' at first sight...


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 12, 2006)

Cool


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## twendkata71 (Dec 13, 2006)

*Here is one of my favorite sayings>*
*" the dojo is the place where courage is fostered and superior human nature is bred through the ecstacy of sweating in hard work.*
*It is the sacred place where the human spirit is polished"*
*                                                         Nagamine Shoshin O sensei*
*                                                         Hanshi founder Matsubayashi*
*                                                                    Shorin ryu karatedo*


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## IWishToLearn (Dec 13, 2006)

I call that type of training "Pyramid" training - where you start with 1 of something, then progress up to a given # of repetitions. Then you continue by coming back down to 1. 

Another thing that really helped me learn my forms was to start at the last move and work my way backwards. It opens up tremendous amounts of possibly unrealized/unrevealed knowledge upon examination.


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## JasonASmith (Dec 13, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> I call that type of training "Pyramid" training - where you start with 1 of something, then progress up to a given # of repetitions. Then you continue by coming back down to 1.
> 
> Another thing that really helped me learn my forms was to start at the last move and work my way backwards. It opens up tremendous amounts of possibly unrealized/unrevealed knowledge upon examination.


Yessir, I've tried that myself...
I enjoy doing regular training(kihon and kata) in different ways, it makes that endless repetition a little more interesting...
The only problem that I had when I did the backwards thing was that it took me forever! That was one of those 3-4 hour practice sessions...


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## zDom (Dec 15, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *Here is one of my favorite sayings>*
> *" the dojo is the place where courage is fostered and superior human nature is bred through the ecstacy of sweating in hard work.*
> *It is the sacred place where the human spirit is polished"*
> *                                                         Nagamine Shoshin O sensei*
> ...



I like that phrase, "the ecstacy of sweating in hard work" 

(I could do without the constant bold font, however...)


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## twendkata71 (Dec 15, 2006)

*I had that on the wall of my dojo. I picked that up when I was studying Shorin ryu.*


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## shotokan-kez (Dec 30, 2006)

This sounds great :uhyeah: I will defo give that a go. We do something similar when learning a new kata, only we do a few moves then back to the start, then do the same few moves again then back to the start. We do that a few times then add on another bit, and so on! It is tireing but well worth it!


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## mijemi (Mar 14, 2007)

We did something similar the other week but in between moves we got down on the ground for pushups. It certainly is easy to get into the flow of a kata but keeping your focus when it's all broken up is a lot harder. I found it really hard to remember where I was up to.


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2007)

matt.m said:


> That was not big in my day.....it was more along the line of "Challenge your limits, don't limit your challenges." Also another big one was....If it isn't hard then it isn't worth it.
> 
> The big reason why the Marines don't like the "Pain is weakness leaving the body" is because being shot is painful, oh well I am done rambling.
> 
> Physical training = hard-> therefore worth it, etc. You guys know what I mean.


 
I really can't imagine a slogan like 'If it isn't hard then it isn't worth it' catching on with British squaddies, well, not without howls of laughter anyway but maybe it's our sense of humour!
This is the only way I can learn kata! I tend to teach it that way too.


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## CoryKS (Mar 14, 2007)

We do something similar in our school.  The instructor calls out the steps and will either go backward or forward - you really have to listen!  

"One...two...three...two...three...two...three...four...three..."

Sometimes he messes with us and goes from, say, two to four.  It's a trainwreck


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## CoryKS (Mar 14, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I really can't imagine a slogan like 'If it isn't hard then it isn't worth it' catching on with British squaddies, well, not without howls of laughter anyway but maybe it's our sense of humour!
> This is the only way I can learn kata! I tend to teach it that way too.


 

There used to be a record label named Stiff Records.  Their slogan was "If it ain't Stiff, it ain't worth a ****".


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## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I really can't imagine a slogan like 'If it isn't hard then it isn't worth it' catching on with British squaddies, well, not without howls of laughter anyway but maybe it's our sense of humour!



Well, just remember that we're the descendentsliteral or culturalof the Puritans you guys were smart enough to kick out. So there's bound to be a bit of disagreement on the virtues of difficulty and suffering, eh?


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## Tez3 (Mar 14, 2007)

exile said:


> Well, just remember that we're the descendentsliteral or culturalof the Puritans you guys were smart enough to kick out. So there's bound to be a bit of disagreement on the virtues of difficulty and suffering, eh?


 
Mmm the trouble is the British Army prides itself on being as much lovers as fighters lol!

One way of doing kata we had with one instructor was to do it in reverse ie if you turned left for the first move usually you turned right instead.


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## exile (Mar 14, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Mmm the trouble is the British Army prides itself on being as much lovers as fighters lol!



What's the line from that G&S operetta&#8212;_Patience_, I think?

[The Heavy Dragoons sing:]

_Gold lace has a charm for the fair,
And I've plenty of that and to spare,
While a lover's professions when uttered in Hessians
Are eloquent everywhere!_

I guess it's been that way for a long time, eh?



Tez3 said:


> One way of doing kata we had with one instructor was to do it in reverse ie if you turned left for the first move usually you turned right instead.



I'd be lost. I have the worst sense of direction imaginable. I need a GPS just to get from the parking garage I always use to my office on campus...


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