# How long does it take to Master



## mjd (Aug 6, 2006)

I have read a lot of threads lately in reference to rank and belts systems ect,

I would like to know what is your time table for rank advancement.

My group is like this? Minimum requirements are.

1st dan - 3 years
2nd dan - plus 2
3rd da - plus 3
4th dan - plus 4
5th dan - plus 5
6th dan - plus 6
7th dan - plus 7
8th dan - plus 8
9th dan - plus 9
10th dan - plus 10


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## Kacey (Aug 6, 2006)

ITF TKD is as follows - more or less; different associations have individual differences, but this is the general idea.  Also, all times refer to active training, not just the amount of time since the last testing.

These are all minimums; many people don't meet them.

I Dan - 3 years 
II Dan - 2 years
III Dan - 3 years (I-III = novice black belt)
IV Dan - 4 years
V Dan - 5 years
VI Dan - 6 years (IV-VI = expert black belt)
VII Dan - 7 years (VII = master instructor)
VIII Dan - 8 years
IX Dan - election by other VIII & IX Dan; no time limit; awarded for service to the art.  (IX = Grand Master)


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## evenflow1121 (Aug 6, 2006)

Kenpo Varies in time

Where I went, Shodan could be obtained anywhere from 4.5-5.5 years, 

After that, whenever your Professor thought you were ready.


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## karatekid1975 (Aug 7, 2006)

When I was in TSD, it went like this:

3 to 3.5 years - 1st dan
2 years - 2nd dan
3 years - 3rd dan

and so on. But my old instructor made the color belt ranks stricter. Now it takes 4 years to 1st dan. He changed it just after I moved. So if I stayed, I would have taken 4 years to get to 1st dan.


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## Brother John (Aug 7, 2006)

I don't really believe in measuring rank advancement by time.
I believe in:
character
Mental & Physical cultivation
Dedication
Perseverance
Knowledge
Understanding
ability to teach / explain
Positive Leadership in the school / association
generosity
Skill development
Selflessness
.........paying your dues in sweat and tears.

True, the "time" should not be short, infact....if anything, I think that if you are judging just on the issue of "time" it should be LONG...
but that's me.

Your Brother
John


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## pstarr (Aug 8, 2006)

I agree with Brother John...


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## matt.m (Aug 8, 2006)

In MSK the average in Tae Kwon Do is 4-4.5 yrs.  In hapkido the average is 6 years to test for dan.


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## tsdclaflin (Aug 9, 2006)

1st dan - 4+ years
2nd dan - plus 2
3rd da - plus 3
4th dan - plus 4

Don't know after that.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 9, 2006)

*The age old question: How long does it take to*

*The answer should always be something like this:*

*Every person learns at a different speed, and has the ability to understand only so much in relation to others; *

*Some learn faster, some slower,*

*Some have a high rate of retention, others cant recall what they had for breakfast,*

*Some are flexible, others are very tight,*

*Some can invest 45 minutes, twice a week, while others can train eight hours per day, six days per week,*

*Some will join and train constantly with a family member or friends, while others will train alone,*

*This list can go on for a long time discussing the differences in how we come and go, and how we apply ourselves.*

*In my school I tell my students that:*
*I do not guarantee any rank in any prescribed time frame. I DO guarantee that the information necessary to earn rank is presented in EVERY class. I cant teach you anything, but I can guide you along the path and help you to learn and achieve all in your (Martial Arts) life that you desire.*

*When you see a student who is a product of the kind of school that guarantees them a black belt in three years, they look like a three year black belt. *

*The old sayings go; *

*You always get what you pay for, *
*and *
*You will always get out of your training in direct proportion, exactly what you put in to it.*

*What one school deems as a black belt in curriculum and ability will be different from what another school deems. Even if they are from the same system, and in many cases, the same organization, much less from different systems all together.*

*My advice to those who ask; how long will it take me to? Is; dont focus on the timeline. Focus on the learning and the rank will come when its time. Take your training deep (in understanding technique and philosophies of movement). *

*Too many practitioners think that memorizing the sequence of movements in a given hyung/kata is all that is necessary. Such is the watering down process in martial arts today. They have just gotten down the sequence of one hyung/kata, and they are already rushing to learn the next one. *

*You have to ask yourself if you are truly a Martial Artist, or simply someone that wants a little exercise and some fun A true Martial Artist cant be satisfied by superficial understanding and mediocre ability. If you are, or aspire to be a Serious Martial Artist, dont be in a hurry. The only true value that rank has is, letting you know how far you have come in Your Instructors program, and nothing more. *

*When you are out on the street and the mugger(s) attack(s) you, he/they dont start by asking you if you train in a martial art, and what your rank is. He/they could care less. The only thing at that point that should be important to you is; being skilled enough, and having developed the mental toughness (ATTITUDE) to over-take the aggressor(s) and get home safe. Thats it in a nutshell*


*Your thoughts*


*Yours in Tang Soo Do,*


*Master Jay S. Penfil*


*TANG SOO!!!*​


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## mjd (Aug 13, 2006)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:
			
		

> *The age old question: How long does it take to*
> 
> *Your thoughts**Yours in Tang Soo Do, **Master Jay S. Penfil*
> 
> *TANG SOO!!!*​




That was a very passionate respond and I enjoyed reading it, and I have to agree with everthing you said, but even your school, has a *minimum* time requirement for rank testing I bet, almost all organized systems do. 

The question was not presented very well, lake of literal infususion on my part, it was ment to compare minimum requirements in general terms.

I met a 36 year old 8th dan, I just wondered how was this possible, so I ask the question to see what others were doing in comparable time frame.

Making black belts is like making good wine, it takes it's own time, even if you start with good quality grapes.




​


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## EmperorOfKentukki (Aug 14, 2006)

I'm still trying to get past the 14 yr of 4th Dan I saw at a tournament a couple of years back.

The Emperor


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## Master Jay S. Penfil (Aug 14, 2006)

As a minimum:
10th Gup to 4th Gup is (as a minimum) 3 months per rank.
4th Gup to 1st Gup is 6 months per rank.
1st Gup to 1st Dan is 1 year.
1st Dan to 2nd Dan is 2 years.
2nd Dan to 3rd Dan is 3 years.
3rd Dan to 4th Dan is 4 years.
And so on

Like most of you I have met more then my share of those who claim to be something that they simply are not (and in most cases will never be).

There are some practitioners who will be promoted by their instructor in less time then the minimum states. If the instructor determines that they have established all that is necessary to receive the promotion in a shorter time, the instructor has the right to make that decision.

I have always seen the minimum time requirement as a necessity to get you where you need to be, but I have been promoted by my instructor, Grandmaster Kim, Chung Il early on a couple of my promotions. The first time was when he promoted me to 4th Dan in 1988. I had been promoted to 3rd Dan in 1986. At the time, I tried to pass on the promotion. I was told by a direct senior that if Grandmaster Kim saw something in me that he felt was worthy of that promotion, and I didnt, it was my responsibility to step up my game and get (in my own mind) worthy. If I did not accept the promotion, G.M. Kim would have seen it as an insult, and I would not have been allowed to continue training under him I accepted the promotion, and stepped up my game accordingly.

This is a different situation from someone who promotes him/her-self for any reason. I have seen several who rose up from nowhere to all of a sudden be grandmaster _____________, and no one has ever even heard of them. This is a problem.

There are also those who choose to assign rank certificates to others to attract them as members to their organizations. The problem with receiving rank like this is that there is no way to determine if the receiver is truly knowledgeable of the system and able to teach. They now have a certificate to present to potential students claiming them to be something that they are most likely not.

I have a problem with anyone who hangs certification from someone that they have not trained under, and have no real relationship with as I stated earlier; all that rank does is tell you how far you have come in your instructors program. If you hang a certificate from a stranger, what is your intention? It must be to fool unsuspecting prospects into signing up in your school. This is, in my mind, deception and STEELING. 

If someone comes to me to train and signs up with me, I dont care what rank they come in the door with, they will not get certification from me with my name on it until they have been with me for a significant amount of time, and can perform to the level that I feel that they should be for that given rank.

I have had instructors contact me to see if they can arrange to meet with G,M Kim to join our organization and get a certificate of rank from us to hang in their school. The answer is always the same NO. If you want to become a member of our organization, we can discuss that, and make a decision according to what is decided by all parties. Certification will only come when relationships are solid and secure. We dont want anyone coming to us for a rank certificate, only to leave in a year to do the same thing with someone else. This is all a part of the watering down of the martial arts community, and we must all work hard to keep it real and pure. If you are aware of such frauds, dont be afraid to let everyone know They hurt us all in the long run.

Your thoughts


Yours in Tang Soo Do,


Master Jay S. Penfil

TANG SOO!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> I don't really believe in measuring rank advancement by time.
> I believe in:
> character
> Mental & Physical cultivation
> ...


 
As always John, you are right on!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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