# Revised Policies: Non-Desirables



## Bob Hubbard

*Revised Policy*
=========
Our goal is not to be a site for witch hunts, fraud busting, and inquisition. There are other sites who enjoy those games and view themselves at guardians of the arts, when it's often little more than "if they like you you're ok, if they don't they will say whatever to defame your character". We hold to a higher standard. In the same vein however, being one of the largest general arts communities on the Internet, brings with it some responsibility to a higher standard of being, and to allow our members the ability to ask consumer oriented questions and report on misadventures. With that, we announce the following policy changes and clarifications:

* Consumer Complaints*
Members may make consumer complaints, and consumer warning posts. If you are complaining about someone, it must be based on first hand experience. What happened to a complete stranger half a country away doesn't count. All content must comply to our existing policy rules.

* Fraud Reports*
MartialTalk has an existing fraud busting policy. It's intent is to avoid site disruptions, juvenile games, and mud fests. Members may report on verifiable cases of fraud and criminal behavior in the Horror Stories section. All content must comply to our existing policy rules.

* Non-Desirable's*
In some cases, non-desirable individuals might attempt to join our community. When found, they are subject to ban. 
Who do we deem as non-desirable here?

1- Convicted Sex Offenders. 
2- Convicted Frauds
3- Anyone falsifying their rank, achievements or experience for the purpose of misleading clients and prospects.
4- Anyone selling, issuing or otherwise distributing falsified, counterfeit or unauthorized modified credentials such as diplomas, certificates and rank.
5- Anyone impersonating a lawyer, law enforcement or government official. 
6- Anyone falsifying their identity under our RealName policy.
7- Anyone falsifying military experience in a verifiable manner.

 Acceptable proof of wrong here is:
1- Verifiable Court Documents such as court orders and court decisions.
2- Newspaper articles in credible papers
3- News releases direct from credible organizations
4- Government Records

 Unacceptable Proof
1- Threads on so called "advocate" sites that are little more than sloppy research and angry teen angst
2- Emailed notes stating "hey so and so is a liar"

An accusation of wrong doing is not sufficient, proof must be presented. While we are aware that there are many many individuals and websites who view themselves as consumer advocates and guardians of the truth, our criteria must be set higher than the often sloppy detective work done by amateurs.

Information presented may be submitted to law enforcement or other government agencies for verification, and those submitting falsified evidence turned over for possible prosecution. 

We may modify the acceptable and unacceptable proof, and this policy at any time. Proof should be presented in public, not emailed to our Staff. Those who choose to post evidence are subject to site policy and the law, and are solely responsible for their postings. Neither MartialTalk nor it's Staff will be held accountable.

Abuse of this policy is subject to administrative action.

Opinions, advice, statements, offers, or other information or content made available through MartialTalk are those of their respective authors and not of MartialTalk, and should not necessarily be relied upon. Such authors are solely responsible for the accuracy of such content. MartialTalk does not guarantee the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information on MartialTalk and neither adopts nor endorses nor is responsible for the accuracy or reliability of any opinion, advice or statement made. Under no circumstances will MartialTalk be responsible for any loss or damage resulting from anyone's reliance on information or other content posted on MartialTalk. 47 U.S.C. § 230(c)(1)

We will comply with all properly served court orders for information, assistance and data.

========

An example of a "News Release from a Credible Organization" would mean it is posted on their website, or sent out in a news release.

"I was at the camp and Sensei gave the nod to remove X from our ranks" is NOT acceptable. If it's important, it will be posted or otherwise published.

"X doesn't show up on their org list. That means he's lying".
No, it means he doesn't show up on the list. There are many reasons why this could be. A falling out, an old list, left that organization and was removed. Proof here is a public announcement of being stripped of rank with a reason that doesn't involve "Didn't pay his annual fees/Left the organization".


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## Bob Hubbard

One of the goals of this will be to develop some resources that can be used to check various claims against, as well as help consumers get satisfaction against scammers, frauds, and rip off artists.  Exposing them is good, but more needs to be done to stop them from continuing to victimize people.  Over the next few weeks you will see some minor changes under Horror Stories that will hopefully help aid victims in getting justice, and save new people from being victimized. You might see some new faces pop in here to inform of ongoing and completed investigations, news from law enforcement on on going prosecutions, and hopefully news of scammer convictions and victim restitution.  This is new ground, I'm excited and nervous at the same time.

So, keep watching and as always keep sending in your feedback.


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## Steve

Bob Hubbard said:


> One of the goals of this will be to develop some resources that can be used to check various claims against, as well as help consumers get satisfaction against scammers, frauds, and rip off artists. Exposing them is good, but more needs to be done to stop them from continuing to victimize people. Over the next few weeks you will see some minor changes under Horror Stories that will hopefully help aid victims in getting justice, and save new people from being victimized. You might see some new faces pop in here to inform of ongoing and completed investigations, news from law enforcement on on going prosecutions, and hopefully news of scammer convictions and victim restitution. This is new ground, I'm excited and nervous at the same time.
> 
> So, keep watching and as always keep sending in your feedback.


I'll admit that I was curious how you guys were going to handle this situation. I'm glad that you're taking steps, although I might remove the snarky digs toward Bullshido and other organizations.  In my opinion, it's totally okay that the purpose or intent of this site is not investigation or fraudbusting.  At the same time, regardless of where the information comes from, once a question has been raised, it's not going overboard to pursue a reasonable answer or show the poster the virtual door.

If anything, you guys might have overdefined "acceptable" vs "unnacceptable" proof and your policy would be stronger if you struck those passages.  This would eliminate what reads like a backhanded dig to other sites, as well as allow you the latitude to pursue questionable claims whether the issues come from an affiliate site or not.  It would also allow you to take a harder stance when issues like this come up.  

I like it here, but I also like Bullshido.


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## Bob Hubbard

It's something being considered as we move forward with this.  The overall intent is to filter out heresay and unsubstantiated witch hunts while allowing for serious proof to be presented.


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## Archangel M

I would think that some guideline or definition of what "fraud" (or at least acceptable targets) is will need to be laid down.


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## Makalakumu

I think the key is civility.  Fraud-busting in the martial arts is a NEEDED service.  There is way too much BS out there and there has to be some avenue to check up on claims and clear the air.  MT can have a fraud busting section, however, I think it should be done without the peepeetalk and generally sophomoric behavior that is engaged elsewhere.  If it can be done at a professional and serious level, I don't see a general problem with it.


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## Bob Hubbard

This is a rough draft work in progress, so I expect we'll have some major imput from members to define things.  I don't intend to be a mini-Bullshido. Different rules/guidelines/etc. Any thing done here needs to comply with our existing policies. Our last major fraudbuster brewup here back in 04/05 turned the site into a war zone. I've got no intention on letting that happen again.  We are a polite site, I want it to remain such, which means that some folks will have to modify their methods if they want to come here and work with us.  

In the end though, I want our doors shut to the scammers, rip off artists, liars and other such people who give the arts a black mark and prey on those who don't know any better. I believe we can do this, without losing our identity, and without compromising our mission of being a friendly martial arts forum.


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## Makalakumu

One of the things that make the legitimate action of fraud busting impolite and ultimately ineffective is the "my art is better then your art" weenie waging chest beating bit.  If guidelines can be drawn up to separate those two, I think the site would be well on its way in differentiating itself from Bullshido.


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## Bob Hubbard

One thing that will differentiate MartialTalk from Bullshido is when proven we won't keep the frauds around. Seems they don't mind letting known frauds keep active accounts on their site.  I find that an rather odd concept for a fraud busting site. One of their admins a rather funny guy going by Cy said it this way "We don't NEED to ban them.  We EXPOSE them.".  Nice, then what? Seems odd to me.

Another thing is than many of the fraud buster sites allow and even actively encourage questionable legal behavior such as bullying, stalking, browbeating and such.  We aren't going to allow that type of behavior here.  Every day, hundreds of honest cops investigate cases with stricter handcuffs than we have, and do their jobs quite well. Every day hundreds of honest courts hear hundreds of cases with stricter evidence rules than we have and can reach decisions and render judgments.  I see no reason why we can't do the same.

The amateur sites also don't seem to have a penalty for lying or fabricating evidence in investigations.  MT's official policy will be if you make crap up to bust someone, you'll be the one banned and we'll offer that evidence to your victim should they pursue legal action.  

So, don't break the law, don't break the rules and stay honest when investigating issues. Keeps all our butts covered.

Now, on the subject of resources, I'm looking for some good ones to use, not just for reference, but also so that when someone is breaking the law (and yes fraud is a crime), it can be reported to the proper authorities for investigation and possible prosecution.


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## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> The overall intent is to filter out heresay



I hope you mean "hearsay" and not "heresy". :uh-oh:

I remember when I was an admin here and one of these started up and people started e-mailing me scans of documents in foreign languages proving claims and counter-claims. Someone may have been a fraud, but I was in no position to judge the matter.

And "Bullshido" is no longer filtered?


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## Archangel M

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm looking for some good ones to use, not just for reference, but also so that when someone is breaking the law (and yes fraud is a crime), it can be reported to the proper authorities for investigation and possible prosecution.



Unless it's a "humdinger" of a case, I dont see many prosecutors going after most of the fraud incidents I see in MA. Cop's are not going to care if the corner McDojo is being run by some guy who trained in his basement or is hanging some made-up rank certs. If anything it's civil suits that will have the power. If a martial arts org finds out someone is claiming rank and making money, that will probably get some attention.


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## Steve

maunakumu said:


> I think the key is civility. Fraud-busting in the martial arts is a NEEDED service. There is way too much BS out there and there has to be some avenue to check up on claims and clear the air. MT can have a fraud busting section, however, I think it should be done without the peepeetalk and generally sophomoric behavior that is engaged elsewhere. If it can be done at a professional and serious level, I don't see a general problem with it.


Just for the record, Bullshido is very serious and respectful in their investigations forums (overall... a few jackasses sometimes chime in but they're put down pretty fast). YMAS is the locker room and MABS is the board room. Two very, very different tones which is often overlooked. 

Of course, when someone comes on and seems to be shoveling crap, they're called on it. 

My belief, however, is that even were this not the case, if the allegations have merit, it doesn't matter where they come from. Once raise, while I don't really think everyone needs to pull out the pitch forks and torches, we should at least passively support (if not actively pursue) answers. 

And really, most of the investigations end amicably with the person having a fully vetted record. For example, a guy locally started up a BJJ school and there were some questions about his rank. He came on the board himself and cleared his name. It was relatively painless.

In Matt's case, he was asked to provide some documentation and even now, after everything has played out as it has, mtripp posted an open letter on Bullshido extending an olive branch and the USJA seems to have left open the possibility of at some point legitimizing Matt's rank.

Edit to add: Regarding banning, I can see both sides. Bullshido seems to distinguish between people who violate the board policies and people who are frauds. The general idea is that Bullshido would rather get as much online documentation by the fraud as possible... the more they post, the more their own words condemn them, so to speak. Seems reasonable to me.


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## Bob Hubbard

Our difference here is that we have done the same here, as any investigation of Horror Stories and it's subsection will show.  Unfortunately there are those on Bullshido who feel that not allowing them to ask the same question 100 times, to not be allowed to sign up 1-shot accounts for the sole purpose of disrupting -this- site and harassing their target (harassment btw is usually an illegal activity), to not allow them to blanket MartialTalk with sock puppets to gang up on people, is somehow sheltering the frauds. I'm sure they also feel the police should be allowed to use shot filled hoses to beat suspects too, but that's thankfully not legal in the US at least. That's why they  have made the empty and unsubstantiated claim time and time again against us that we're nothing but a safe haven for frauds. Can't provide names, and they are demanding that I violate law and turn over to them our member list. Not going to happen.  Even Bullshido admits that their own goal is simply to -expose- the fraud. 

While Bullshido has done a good number of investigations, the great majority of those they exposed are still actively out there, doing what they do.  As they used the child molester example in reference to us when they awarded MartialTalk their famous Douchebag of the Month award (something I honestly find very amusing I might add), I have to ask: What good is identifying the scumbag if you still allow them to victimize others?  In my own dealings with a certified fraud, I dealt with the FBI, the BBB, other victims, and a large network was created that eventually ran him to ground. Bullshido can keep them around to toy with. I prefer the idea that if you are in fact guilty, you don't need to be around my honest members any longer.

I don't want Bullshido style investigations here. I question the legality of vigilante justice such as that.  What I do welcome is the raising of legitimate questions and concerns, requests for proof (as our policies have long stated, if you claim something it's your responsibility to back it up, not our staffs job to play CSI), and results of investigations.

If Bullshido is investigating someone, they are welcome to make an announcement here, post regular updates, and their final results. They aren't welcome  to continue their game playing, little board crashes, or continued unauthorized hotlinking to our images however. They also aren't welcome to come here and bully our members. As they themselves have stated, they have no legal enforcement powers.

If in the course of any fraud or criminal investigation it is found that a MartialTalk member is guilty, then in most cases we will most likely suspend their access to the site. Why most and not all? Because we reserve the right to decide on a case by case means and do our best to be as humanly fair as we possibly can be, as we always have done.  Some on Bullshido will read this as soft. I prefer to see it as sticking with the American idea of "Innocent until proven guilty" and other related principles.

As to Bullshido itself, I'm removing the filter ban on their sites for the purpose of being able to link to their investigations. I've also sent Phrost an email suggesting that rather than us beat each other up over and over again, that we cooperate to expand the coverage of fraud reports and make it harder for them to gain new victims. So far, no reply, but the olive branch is there.


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## Bob Hubbard

Investigations forum is open. It's located under Horror Stories.


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## Jenna

Bob Hubbard said:


> As to Bullshido itself, I'm removing the filter ban on their sites for the purpose of being able to link to their investigations. I've also sent Phrost an email suggesting that rather than us beat each other up over and over again, that we cooperate to expand the coverage of fraud reports and make it harder for them to gain new victims. So far, no reply, but the olive branch is there.


I hope that works out.. It is a shame there is such an apparent level of antipathy between the sites there are good people on both despite how prejudices advise our perceptions.  I mean it is like supporting your local team.. you are not exactly supposed to _adore _supporters of the other town's team [that is a given] yet I do not understand the animosity I have read..  Anyways sorry I do not mean to interrupt just I hope there is something positive.. yours is good "Aikido" dear Bob.. Jenna


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## Bob Hubbard

The animosity goes back years, and is mostly 1 sided. We've long preferred to be left alone, and have never supported or condoned going to other sites and causing trouble.  They've been doing it to us for years though often with staff or now former staff involved.  Personally, I never got it.


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## Tames D

Bob Hubbard said:


> Our difference here is that we have done the same here, as any investigation of Horror Stories and it's subsection will show. Unfortunately there are those on Bullshido who feel that not allowing them to ask the same question 100 times, to not be allowed to sign up 1-shot accounts for the sole purpose of disrupting -this- site and harassing their target (harassment btw is usually an illegal activity), to not allow them to blanket MartialTalk with sock puppets to gang up on people, is somehow sheltering the frauds. I'm sure they also feel the police should be allowed to use shot filled hoses to beat suspects too, but that's thankfully not legal in the US at least. That's why they have made the empty and unsubstantiated claim time and time again against us that we're nothing but a safe haven for frauds. Can't provide names, and they are demanding that I violate law and turn over to them our member list. Not going to happen. Even Bullshido admits that their own goal is simply to -expose- the fraud.
> 
> While Bullshido has done a good number of investigations, the great majority of those they exposed are still actively out there, doing what they do. As they used the child molester example in reference to us when they awarded MartialTalk their famous Douchebag of the Month award (something I honestly find very amusing I might add), I have to ask: What good is identifying the scumbag if you still allow them to victimize others? In my own dealings with a certified fraud, I dealt with the FBI, the BBB, other victims, and a large network was created that eventually ran him to ground. Bullshido can keep them around to toy with. I prefer the idea that if you are in fact guilty, you don't need to be around my honest members any longer.
> 
> I don't want Bullshido style investigations here. I question the legality of vigilante justice such as that. What I do welcome is the raising of legitimate questions and concerns, requests for proof (as our policies have long stated, if you claim something it's your responsibility to back it up, not our staffs job to play CSI), and results of investigations.
> 
> If Bullshido is investigating someone, they are welcome to make an announcement here, post regular updates, and their final results. They aren't welcome to continue their game playing, little board crashes, or continued unauthorized hotlinking to our images however. They also aren't welcome to come here and bully our members. As they themselves have stated, they have no legal enforcement powers.
> 
> If in the course of any fraud or criminal investigation it is found that a MartialTalk member is guilty, then in most cases we will most likely suspend their access to the site. Why most and not all? Because we reserve the right to decide on a case by case means and do our best to be as humanly fair as we possibly can be, as we always have done. Some on Bullshido will read this as soft. I prefer to see it as sticking with the American idea of "Innocent until proven guilty" and other related principles.
> 
> As to Bullshido itself, I'm removing the filter ban on their sites for the purpose of being able to link to their investigations. I've also sent Phrost an email suggesting that rather than us beat each other up over and over again, that we cooperate to expand the coverage of fraud reports and make it harder for them to gain new victims. So far, no reply, but the olive branch is there.


 
After reading this, I have even more respect for you Bob.


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## arnisador

Bullshido? Isn't that the site that put Ashida Kim out of business?

What's that, you say? He's still operating? Oh no!


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## Rich Parsons

Bob Hubbard said:


> One thing that will differentiate MartialTalk from Bullshido is when proven we won't keep the frauds around. Seems they don't mind letting known frauds keep active accounts on their site. I find that an rather odd concept for a fraud busting site. One of their admins a rather funny guy going by Cy said it this way "We don't NEED to ban them. We EXPOSE them.". Nice, then what? Seems odd to me.
> 
> Another thing is than many of the fraud buster sites allow and even actively encourage questionable legal behavior such as bullying, stalking, browbeating and such. We aren't going to allow that type of behavior here. Every day, hundreds of honest cops investigate cases with stricter handcuffs than we have, and do their jobs quite well. Every day hundreds of honest courts hear hundreds of cases with stricter evidence rules than we have and can reach decisions and render judgments. I see no reason why we can't do the same.
> 
> The amateur sites also don't seem to have a penalty for lying or fabricating evidence in investigations. MT's official policy will be if you make crap up to bust someone, you'll be the one banned and we'll offer that evidence to your victim should they pursue legal action.
> 
> So, don't break the law, don't break the rules and stay honest when investigating issues. Keeps all our butts covered.
> 
> Now, on the subject of resources, I'm looking for some good ones to use, not just for reference, but also so that when someone is breaking the law (and yes fraud is a crime), it can be reported to the proper authorities for investigation and possible prosecution.


 

Bob,

What you mention here is a problem I have with Bullshido. They allow in the past (* I have not been there to browse in a long while *) anyone to raise the question and the sharks to circle the water and someone's business or event is hit hard financially. In the end there may not have been anything bad about the person being acused, but the acusor are still positng members and throwing more under the bus for their financial and personal agendas. 

If a club splits up or an organization splits or someone leaves then this gives lots of people the fuel they think they need to destroy someone else. 

I am not sure how this can be added into what you already have planned, but it is something that I prefer not to get involved with unless, I am allowed to say, "Meet me here, so we talk about it is person." And not have the other person take as a death threat. 

Thanks


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## Errant108

If you pay any attention to investigations on Bullshido, the "sharks" that you complain about are very quick to turn on those who raise BS complaints against innocent people.  Our posters are extremely quick to demand proof of claims and allegations, and make a great effort to distinguish between "I don't like how this person teaches" issues and "this person is legitimately ripping people off".

We do not ban posters who are frauds or full of ddong.  We allow them to continue to expose themselves.  We give them as much rope as they wish to hang themselves with.

We allow for no-holds barred discussion.  This means that yes, some people get potty-mouthed.  Some people prefer to make personal attacks, rather than discuss issues.  In investigation threads, these people are very quickly dealt with, and removed from the investigation.

Despite MartialTalk's claim of being the polite forum, I have witnessed the same behavior here, from several long time posters.  It is not only Bullshido that allows people to make unlimited and unwarranted personal attacks, to spout close-minded views, ignore rational discussion, and continue to support their own ego.  This is found on nearly every internet forum on nearly every subject.

On the other hand, I have had several in-depth and intelligent discussions with posters here on MartialTalk, who are very knowledgable in their subject matter. People of this nature are also found on Bullshido, so I understand how MartialTalk members could see one side of things and ignore the other.  It would be easy for myself to do the same.

So, I would encourage all of you complaining about Bullshido to consider that this may be a case of plank&mote syndrome.


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## Steve

arnisador said:


> Bullshido? Isn't that the site that put Ashida Kim out of business?
> 
> What's that, you say? He's still operating? Oh no!


Okay guys. I don't want to fall into the position of speaking on behalf of Bullshido. I'm a fan of both sites. I think both serve a legit function within the MA community. I post here WAY more often than I post there, but that doesn't in any way mean I enjoy bullshido any less. 

I will suggest that, rather than speculating on why they do anything, to focus on what they've done for the community. Or in other words, focus more on action than intent, because there's no possible way you can know why Phrost does anything, much as he can't know why you do anything. If that makes sense.

What I'm also suggesting is that we (if I can at all speak for MT) act in a way that is consistent. Veiled slights toward the behavior on Bullshido is petty and unnecessary, and has no relevance to what they do.

As for whether they put someone out of business or not, that's the entire point. It's exceedingly difficult to put someone out of business or to pursue any legal recourse. If legal recourse is the only acceptable outcome of an investigation, there would be no public record of most fraudulant school owners. What the investigations on Bullshido accomplish is to create a significant internet presence for the investigation. What I mean is, it would be impossible to avoid finding the Ashida Kim or Coda Scott investigations using any search engine. By recording these investigations online, including a cogent, well written summary, the facts are there for anyone to see. Ultimately, if someone wants to avoid the facts, they can't be helped, but the facts remain in public, easily referenced.

And if their efforts result in legal action, they seem to consider that a well earned victory, but by no means the only positive outcome. 

Look guys, I feel like I'm stuck between two good friends here. From where I sit (and type) it appears to me that both sides tend to take a somewhat elitist attitude of the other. I'm going to try and back out of this thread by reiterating that I'm glad that MT is taking the actions it is, and can only suggest that if you're really making a sincere effort to get along, that thinly veiled references to teen angst and sloppy investigation be stricken. While, as you said on BS, that reference doesn't necessarily refer to bullshido, it's pretty hard to take it otherwise.


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## Bob Hubbard

The problem with Bullshido investigations, or any for that matter is, they have no authority in the matter. These aren't detectives, cops, or judges, just Joe Citizen.  Well meaning in most cases, but in the end, if real damage is to be done to the frauds, eventually the legal beagles need to come into play.

Bullshido isn't the only site out there doing these things. They are the best know in the MartialArts world that I'm aware of though.  I've noticed at least a dozen BSdo members signed up the last 2 days. Hopefully to cooperate. 

Both sides of the argument have been right and wrong. Neither is perfect, flawless, etc.  My invitation to cooperate is an attempt to do just that, cooperate. We don't have to love each other to share data in a meaningful and legal way to make it harder for frauds to operate on either site or in general. I certainly am not asking for a retraction of our award....I asked for a printed copy I could frame. 

While I've been smacking around a few of the dumber folks over there the last 2 days, I've also been reading through the handful of investigation writeups that were posted.  Do they have a list?  I'd be happy to mirror that list here (links to those investigations, with official permission to do so) and allow it to be kept updated.

Regarding the amateur sites note, I intend to keep that, however I also intend to offer a recommended resources list that will better indicate who we consider credible.


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## Bob Hubbard

Rich Parsons said:


> Bob,
> 
> What you mention here is a problem I have with Bullshido. They allow in the past (* I have not been there to browse in a long while *) anyone to raise the question and the sharks to circle the water and someone's business or event is hit hard financially. In the end there may not have been anything bad about the person being acused, but the acusor are still positng members and throwing more under the bus for their financial and personal agendas.
> 
> If a club splits up or an organization splits or someone leaves then this gives lots of people the fuel they think they need to destroy someone else.
> 
> I am not sure how this can be added into what you already have planned, but it is something that I prefer not to get involved with unless, I am allowed to say, "Meet me here, so we talk about it is person." And not have the other person take as a death threat.
> 
> Thanks


Rich,
  The problem with alot of these investigations, on any site is just that.  Someones competitor gets the ball rolling to harm them professionally.  I'm hoping that we can develop some guidelines here that will prevent that sort of stuff.


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## Bob Hubbard

Just a side note, expect a revision or 3 to this policy to clarify things, add resources and improve communications as we go.


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## Steve

Final articles are posted on bullshido.org (as opposed to bullshido.net).  Here's the direct link to the Matt Morton article: http://www.bullshido.org/Matthew_Morton

I'm not sure if there is a comprehensive list, but the Bullshido wiki at bullshido.org is the place to look.


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## Errant108

We do have a few lawyers on staff, and have utilized them during certain investigations, especially those involving children, or when the person being investigated has a criminal background.  If necessary, information found can be turned over to the actual authorities.  Bullshido does not seek vigilante justice.

It is not Bullshido's job to put someone out of business (as much as some Bullies wish it was).  The mission of Bullshido is to investigate claims of harmful martial art practices, advocate for aliveness in training, and make this information available to the general public.  It is not the job of Consumer Reports to put companies out of business, nor any investigative journalist.  Investigation and reporting that information is.

My tenure on Bullshido is part of the reason why I was asked to provide commentary on the Baltimore Samurai case.


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## Bob Hubbard

Thank you gentlemen.  Appreciated.


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## mwd0818

Bob,

Just to add, I am also a member over at Bullshido, but don't post there because I see little to no value in it.  Perhaps if one of their fraud investigations came in to play in my area, I would contribute first hand knowledge where I could.  Otherwise, I find the site generally a nuisance to navigate, read and follow.

As for policies here on fraud-busting, I appreciate that this site just doesn't welcome the interaction - probably not because we wouldn't want to investigate and find out, but that it encourages an interaction that is not conducive to the general growth of the MA community here.  I do appreciate the willingness to change some policies however and move forward.  Exposing frauds is not the goal of MT, but it can be PART of our discussions.  Ashida Kim, Dux, etc.  I've always appreciated the professionalism and courtesy here, and any post that keeps that, I think should be welcomed.  I've seen a few posts that have been warned or threads locked on here that I didn't necessarily agree with it from the admin side, but thanks for running a clean and professional site.  I don't have to agree with everything that is done by the admins here, but I continue to enjoy posting and reading from the wide variety of people that we have contribute here.


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## Steve

http://www.bullshido.org/Category:Investigations

That'll get you to a list of the final articles on all of the completed investigations.


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## Errant108

Bob Hubbard said:


> Do they have a list?  I'd be happy to mirror that list here (links to those investigations, with official permission to do so) and allow it to be kept updated.



A link to Bullshido's investigation of myself:

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=76107


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## Omar B

There's enough space for both to co-exist just fine.  It's not as if their fraud busting is ever going to affect me or my instructor.  It's a funny site to read, I just don't have the time to join and post there and here.


----------



## shesulsa

I still really can't like a site who says they get to define what is and isn't okay in the MA industry outside of blatant, verifiable or admitted fraud.  Many more schools are more community-outreach and hobbyist than professional, competitive schools.  So unless you fit into the BS-Do box, you're not legit?

Martial arts has done more for many people besides turn them into good fighters or take their money or both.  

If we're going to apply the Bullshido mentality to all of life, then only professional potters would throw clay and sell pottery.  Only licensed artists would sell paintings, drawings and sculptures.  Only certified, verifiable, award-winning leathercrafters would create and sell leather goods.  Because there can clearly be NO ****ING WAY anyone could get any ****ING benefit out of pretending they have something to offer by doodling, sketching, making a pinch-pot or 20, painting an image of their favorite landscape or weaving a leather belt.  Buy hand-crafted furniture from the guy down the street?  How could you?  HE DOESN'T RUN AN APPROVED FACTORY!!!!

Martial arts, as all other endeavors, have much more to offer than fighting effectiveness and though this is important, it is just *not* what so very many people come to martial arts for nor what they bring their children to karate klass for.

Nobody likes to admit it, nobody likes to say it, nobody thinks it should be the case.  But people - this is America and this is how we do things - we eat at the buffet of what is before us, taking what we like and leaving the rest.  Now, if someone is on the market for some serious damn training, then that person should do extensive research and ... AND ... *are you ready for this? I'm so excited ...*  THEY ACTUALLY DO THE RESEARCH!!

Anyone wanting to become a professional and who is *serious* will get pointed in the right direction of clubs that will teach them to get into some serious skills-development and sparring practice so they can reach their goals.  

There can be no mystery that a large part of the draw for a site like Bullshido *IS* the attitude and the language.  "Dirty Laundry," right? Everybody loves it.  Momma taught us it was naughty - as was fightin' - so we're gonna seek it out ... until we grow up and find new vocabulary words to adequately express our ideas.  

To say that MartialTalk harbors frauds is just wrong. The proof is in the pudding ... but I think only registered members can see that pudding and perhaps it would do MT good to allow all to read that pudding.  Some cases which have been decided on Bullshido may not have been completely resolved in real life and hence, if the member is here, we suddenly become the sanctuary of evil.  It's really quite juvenile.  

Bullshido serves a purpose, it's just pumped up with a lot of ... stuff.  Stuff which one has to wade through to get to the real meat of the matter which just too often for me is ... fleeting, hearsay and subject to the judgement of a small group of narrow-minded people. I've seen the result of what such a judiciary panel does to really good art forms and small companies and frankly, I'm not impressed.  

I'm glad the policy is changing, however, I still won't reactivate my account with Bullshido on principle and Bob - congratulations on earning their DOM award - I'd display it on the Index Page!


----------



## Archangel M

All true. But what if a potter/artist were making claims that they were trained in a famous art school, trained under a famous artist, had their work displayed in famous museums and won awards for their work...and it was ALL found to be crap??

And how much worse is it if that artist was making a living teaching art based off of those credentials?


----------



## Steve

With respect, Shesulsa, I think you dislike the impression that you have of Bullshido more than of Bullshido as it really exists.  

It's lude and baudy and the language is at least PG-13, but the core of Bullshido has no problem with any of the other reasons that people study martial arts.  It's when you claim that your art is for self defense or is "effective on the street" that an issue comes up.  My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that.  My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter.  She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.  

Regarding doing the research, Bullshido exists to make sure that there is information for someone to find.  Were there no venue for their investigations or if it were strictly for legal investigations, then that alternative information would not be represented on the internet (where almost everyone "does their research").  

Is bullshido for everyone?  Of course not.  It's like the thunderdome sometimes.  But as I said before, there are different forums and the personality of the site changes dramatically from one to the other.  There aren't very many shenanigans, for example, in the MABS forum, and they don't suffer fools in the grappling forum, either.  Newbietown is a no shark area while YMAS is largely fair game where over half of what's said is tongue in cheek.

Once again, I am not interested in defending Bullshido or anything like that.  If you don't like it, that's totally okay by me.  But I do think that you should at least dislike it as it really is and not a bad first impression.


----------



## Gordon Nore

Bob Hubbard said:


> The problem with Bullshido investigations, or any for that matter is, they have no authority in the matter. These aren't detectives, cops, or judges, just Joe Citizen.  Well meaning in most cases, but in the end, if real damage is to be done to the frauds, eventually the legal beagles need to come into play.



QFT. I'm not trashing Bullshido here either. People can get over zealous in their mission to root out fraud. All of a sudden people are being called frauds because their MA practice is unconventional, or maybe they just aren't terribly good at it. Fraud busting can be the veneer that covers for style bashing or rudeness.


----------



## Errant108

Gordon Nore said:


> QFT. I'm not trashing Bullshido here either. People can get over zealous in their mission to root out fraud. All of a sudden people are being called frauds because their MA practice is unconventional, or maybe they just aren't terribly good at it. Fraud busting can be the veneer that covers for style bashing or rudeness.



No one is called a fraud for unconventional training methods.

We have a very VERY precise definition of a fraud.  That is someone claiming to be something that they are not for the sake of profit.

Someone who trains in an unconventional manner will be given the opportunity to explain themselves.  Let's take Taijiquan for example.  We have one poster, a very eloquent gentleman, who has trained Taijiquan with notable instructors as a fighting art.  He is capable of explaining AND DEMONSTRATING how Taijiquan works in a fight, be it combat, grappling, or MMA, in a manner that everyone can understand.  He has put up videos explaining how movements in the Taiji forms can be removed, drilled, and used in alive training.  He has sparred and beaten some of the so-called BJJihad, and earned a great deal of respect on the site.

However, someone who comes on Bullshido and starts explaining how Taijiquan utilizes universal energy, relies on pseudoscientific evidence, and refuses to demonstrate their skill sets AND DEMANDS THAT HIS VIEWS BE RESPECTED will at the least be met with skepticism...and yes, likely be met with derision.

He will not be called a fraud.  We do not allow people who are not frauds to be called frauds, as this is a very quick way to a libel lawsuit, and trust me, Bullshido does not want that.

Bullshido has a set standard of beliefs when it comes to training for combat.  If you do not claim to be training for combat, then you have nothing to worry about.  For example, I love practicing traditional Shorin-ryu kata.  I do not claim that merely going through the motions however, is the most constructive or efficient way to develop combative skill.  This is an area Maunakumu and I have had discussions on several times, and agree on.

Again, I will completely agree that Bullshido as a forum is not necessarily a place for everyone.  I will also agree that some Bullshido members thrive on the ability to act immature and that there is a level of locker room culture in the areas that are not serious forums.  That mentality is not tolerated in MABS, the Investigation forum.


----------



## shesulsa

Archangel M said:


> All true. But what if a potter/artist were making claims that they were trained in a famous art school, trained under a famous artist, had their work displayed in famous museums and won awards for their work...and it was ALL found to be crap??
> 
> And how much worse is it if that artist was making a living teaching art based off of those credentials?



That would be a verifiable fraud ... please see my first paragraph.



stevebjj said:


> With respect, Shesulsa, I think you dislike the impression that you have of Bullshido more than of Bullshido as it really exists.
> 
> It's lude and baudy and the language is at least PG-13, but the core of Bullshido has no problem with any of the other reasons that people study martial arts.  It's when you claim that your art is for self defense or is "effective on the street" that an issue comes up.  My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that.  My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter.  She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.
> 
> Regarding doing the research, Bullshido exists to make sure that there is information for someone to find.  Were there no venue for their investigations or if it were strictly for legal investigations, then that alternative information would not be represented on the internet (where almost everyone "does their research").
> 
> Is bullshido for everyone?  Of course not.  It's like the thunderdome sometimes.  But as I said before, there are different forums and the personality of the site changes dramatically from one to the other.  There aren't very many shenanigans, for example, in the MABS forum, and they don't suffer fools in the grappling forum, either.  Newbietown is a no shark area while YMAS is largely fair game where over half of what's said is tongue in cheek.
> 
> Once again, I am not interested in defending Bullshido or anything like that.  If you don't like it, that's totally okay by me.  But I do think that you should at least dislike it as it really is and not a bad first impression.



I've read that site on and off for years - and even posted there a few times after having been called "****-salsa."  While I respect what you're saying and I did say I believe a purpose is served, it is shrouded in nastiness which is, I'm sorry to say, penis-wagging in the books of many and absolutely *cheapens* the site.

For example - the article by Phrost.  Is there a single individual who can say with certainty that the Matt Morton matter is closed? Finished? Resolved? Sounds to me like it is still very much still open.  Some facts have been found to be sure ... but I really think a particular angle of the whole story was completely extorted in order to hang Matt in the BS noose.  Out of general respect for Matt and because I'm not directly involved, I won't comment on that further.  But because he is a member here, Bob is a douchebag. Come on, folks. We don't really need a rocket science doctorate here, do we?

So ... What about people who are flat-out lied to? Do they become frauds by default?  And just how high are we supposed to hang THEM in their shock and awe that their instructor lied to them?  Sorry, but it reeks of McCarthyism and while it's very important to investigate and question people who make certain claims, most of the rest is not necessary to say the *very* least and harmful to say the worst.


----------



## Errant108

shesulsa said:


> I've read that site on and off for years - and even posted there a few times after having been called "****-salsa."



Hey, at least they didn't point out that, Hwarangdo aside, most Koreans would associate your screen name with their term for diahrea.


----------



## shesulsa

Errant108 said:


> Hey, at least they didn't point out that, Hwarangdo aside, most Koreans would associate your screen name with their term for diahrea.



It depends on the pronunciation, now doesn't it?  And how is calling me ****-Salsa NOT pointing it out?  

Sulsa pronounced with the schwa sound for the "u" would be diarrhea.  Sool-Sa would be "technician."  Mkay?


----------



## Rich Parsons

stevebjj said:


> With respect, Shesulsa, I think you dislike the impression that you have of Bullshido more than of Bullshido as it really exists.
> 
> It's lude and baudy and the language is at least PG-13, but the core of Bullshido has no problem with any of the other reasons that people study martial arts. It's when you claim that your art is for self defense or is "effective on the street" that an issue comes up. My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that. My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter. She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.
> 
> Regarding doing the research, Bullshido exists to make sure that there is information for someone to find. Were there no venue for their investigations or if it were strictly for legal investigations, then that alternative information would not be represented on the internet (where almost everyone "does their research").
> 
> Is bullshido for everyone? Of course not. It's like the thunderdome sometimes. But as I said before, there are different forums and the personality of the site changes dramatically from one to the other. There aren't very many shenanigans, for example, in the MABS forum, and they don't suffer fools in the grappling forum, either. Newbietown is a no shark area while YMAS is largely fair game where over half of what's said is tongue in cheek.
> 
> Once again, I am not interested in defending Bullshido or anything like that. If you don't like it, that's totally okay by me. But I do think that you should at least dislike it as it really is and not a bad first impression.


 

Steve,

I like you presenting this information, and I would not like to cause any negative backlash to your "Steveness", but I will present my concerns.

In the beginning if you did not "roll" you were crap. 

If you were no the military weight charts with 2 to 4 % body fat then you were crap. 

Then it moved to if someone vouched for you then you were ok.

Then it turned into the Shark infested scum pound. Where newbies were attacked for being newbies , unless vouched for by a long time member.

** I pretty much stopped browsing at that point except to spot hit the stie from time to time. 


Maybe the site has grown and has some good content now. But I did not like the taste not how it was run. It was ok for long time people to issue challenges, but not for low on post count people. 

And to address a comment about "long Time posters" here with a bad attitude, I would have to say yes you can find posts from me on this site. Many of those rules were put in place because those events or events similar to them by others. 

I have never said that Bullshido does not serve a purpose or should go away. But I ahve said I do not like it, and many of the people on the site. Maybe this has changed. As with any Brand Name Image once a person gets a bad taste in their mouth it takes a lot of work and positive press for the person to even think about let alone try that Brand Name Again. 

Thanks for sharing.


----------



## Errant108

shesulsa said:


> And how is calling me ****-Salsa NOT pointing it out?



Largely because until you clarified it, I had no idea what was behind those four asterisk.  Given the lack of gentlemanly behavior of some posters around women, I had assumed they were attacking your femininity.



shesulsa said:


> Sulsa pronounced with the schwa sound for the "u" would be diarrhea.  Sool-Sa would be "technician."  Mkay?



&#49444;&#49324;/Seolsa is indeed the pronounciation of diarrhea.  Where as &#34899;&#24107;/&#49696;&#49324;/sulsa is the term you're looking for.  The problem is that it is a term that has virtually no use outside of the Hwarangdo's imagined past, and the average Korean is going to think a Westerner is misprouncing a term indicating that they have stomach condition.  The last time I saw it happen, that person was directed to the restroom.

The only area that the term finds much use is in manhwa, Korean comic books.


----------



## shesulsa

Errant108 said:


> Largely because until you clarified it, I had no idea what was behind those four asterisk.  Given the lack of gentlemanly behavior of some posters around women, I had assumed they were attacking your femininity.
> 
> 
> 
> &#49444;&#49324;/Seolsa is indeed the pronounciation of diarrhea.  Where as &#34899;&#24107;/&#49696;&#49324;/sulsa is the term you're looking for.  The problem is that it is a term that has virtually no use outside of the Hwarangdo's imagined past, and the average Korean is going to think a Westerner is misprouncing a term indicating that they have stomach condition.  The last time I saw it happen, that person was directed to the restroom.
> 
> The only area that the term finds much use is in manhwa, Korean comic books.



I've honestly gone by what other people who speak Korean fluently have told me. I'm much too ancient and far too busy to pursue much more than what is on my plate at the moment.  Interesting you say "sulsa is the term you're lookng for" ... it's the term I picked and for a reason.  Please look again - it is not SheSeolsa ... it is shesulsa.

Thank you for your time.


----------



## Steve

Rich Parsons said:


> Steve,
> 
> I like you presenting this information, and I would not like to cause any negative backlash to your "Steveness", but I will present my concerns.
> 
> In the beginning if you did not "roll" you were crap.
> 
> If you were no the military weight charts with 2 to 4 % body fat then you were crap.
> 
> Then it moved to if someone vouched for you then you were ok.
> 
> Then it turned into the Shark infested scum pound. Where newbies were attacked for being newbies , unless vouched for by a long time member.
> 
> ** I pretty much stopped browsing at that point except to spot hit the stie from time to time.


Honestly, I don't know the entire history of Bullshido. I know that since I rolled into it in June of 06, it's been pretty consistent. I don't post there often because I tend to click on "New Posts" and found it difficult to keep up with the insane volume of posts they have... and lots of white noise in the YMAS forums.    As I said before, I like this site and that one for different reasons.

But... maybe I'm not aware of what kind of reputation I have around here. What the heck is "Steveness?" I'm genuinely intrigued by that. I hope it's either really good or really bad!


----------



## Jenna

stevebjj said:


> But... maybe I'm not aware of what kind of reputation I have around here. What the heck is "Steveness?" I'm genuinely intrigued by that. I hope it's either really good or really bad!


Yes, I am wondering that myself, and moreover, can _anybody _acquire a level of "Steveness"? 

haha I like that..


----------



## Xue Sheng

stevebjj said:


> My 64 year old mom takes Tai Chi and no one here or on Bullshido would say anything bad about that. My mom harbors no delusions about learning self defense skills or to be a street fighter. She's doing it for exercise, to help her balance and her flexibility.


 
ahh but what would they say about my 70 year old taiji sifu who as trained nothing but taiji for over 50 years and has no desire to prove anything to anybody and yet he can throw me around like a rag doll.


----------



## bluekey88

Jenna said:


> Yes, I am wondering that myself, and moreover, can _anybody _acquire a level of "Steveness"?
> 
> haha I like that..


 

I did that once...but I had to kill like 50 orcs or something.

No...wait...that's a level of NERDNESS.  Not sure how one acquires  alevel of steveness.



Peace,
Erik


----------



## Errant108

Xue Sheng said:


> ahh but what would they say about my 70 year old taiji sifu who as trained nothing but taiji for over 50 years and has no desire to prove anything to anybody and yet he can throw me around like a rag doll.



A couple things;

1)  I'd ask if you regularly engaged in tuishou, which, it sounds like you, given that he's tossing you.  If he's just tossing you in demonstrations, I'm not going to give it much credence.

2)  At age 70, no one has anything to prove to anyone.  In fact, you have nothing to prove to anyone about anything.

However, if you come to me with a claim, I'm going to want proof.  I'm going to want to see evidence, or feel it.

Challenging an old man is an jerk move (and one the Gracies pulled on my friend's father, so don't think I'm a BJJ lover).  However, if you're his student, why not come play with me, and see what happens?  It's not a challenge, it's a chance for me to evaluate whether or not your claims are true, whether or not I could learn something from your teacher...and most importantly, it's a chance for both of us to have a good time training together.

The credo of Bullshido is that if you make the claim, you have to prove it.  If you are unwilling to, by either physical demonstration or suitable evidence, then no one is going to give you any credibility.

We've seen that Taijiquan, when trained under certain paramaters, is an excellent system for developing a clinch and throw game that can be a vital part of developing an overall fighter.  Given that, it's just a matter of seeing if someone making a claim trains in methods that match with what we've seen work.


----------



## Rich Parsons

stevebjj said:


> Honestly, I don't know the entire history of Bullshido. I know that since I rolled into it in June of 06, it's been pretty consistent. I don't post there often because I tend to click on "New Posts" and found it difficult to keep up with the insane volume of posts they have... and lots of white noise in the YMAS forums.  As I said before, I like this site and that one for different reasons.
> 
> But... maybe I'm not aware of what kind of reputation I have around here. What the heck is "Steveness?" I'm genuinely intrigued by that. I hope it's either really good or really bad!


 


Jenna said:


> Yes, I am wondering that myself, and moreover, can _anybody _acquire a level of "Steveness"?
> 
> haha I like that..


 
Off Topic: (* Sorry but answering the question for the source of my comment *)

I apologize it is from a movie called "The Tao of Steve" See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Steve

And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donal_Logue

***

On Topic:

Like I said Steve, thanks for presenting a clear and positive point of view for Bullshido. I may look at them again. 

Thanks


----------



## Jenna

Rich Parsons said:


> Off Topic: (* Sorry but answering the question for the source of my comment *)
> 
> I apologize it is from a movie called "The Tao of Steve" See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tao_of_Steve
> 
> And http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donal_Logue
> 
> ***
> 
> On Topic:
> 
> Like I said Steve, thanks for presenting a clear and positive point of view for Bullshido. I may look at them again.
> 
> Thanks



Aha! Thank you Rich for explaining.

And yes to our SteveBJJ thank you too for representing in such a balanced way.  Man, if only there were more like you..

Yes I am sorry for breaking the flow of the topic.  Jenna


----------



## Xue Sheng

Errant108 said:


> A couple things;
> 
> 1) I'd ask if you regularly engaged in tuishou, which, it sounds like you, given that he's tossing you. If he's just tossing you in demonstrations, I'm not going to give it much credence.
> 
> 2) At age 70, no one has anything to prove to anyone. In fact, you have nothing to prove to anyone about anything.
> 
> However, if you come to me with a claim, I'm going to want proof. I'm going to want to see evidence, or feel it.
> 
> Challenging an old man is an jerk move (and one the Gracies pulled on my friend's father, so don't think I'm a BJJ lover). However, if you're his student, why not come play with me, and see what happens? It's not a challenge, it's a chance for me to evaluate whether or not your claims are true, whether or not I could learn something from your teacher...and most importantly, it's a chance for both of us to have a good time training together.
> 
> The credo of Bullshido is that if you make the claim, you have to prove it. If you are unwilling to, by either physical demonstration or suitable evidence, then no one is going to give you any credibility.
> 
> We've seen that Taijiquan, when trained under certain paramaters, is an excellent system for developing a clinch and throw game that can be a vital part of developing an overall fighter. Given that, it's just a matter of seeing if someone making a claim trains in methods that match with what we've seen work.


 
This is going way off topic but...

You have already taken this a few step beyond what I was asking and made it confrontational and I was no where near that. 

I have little or no experience with Bullshido and likely will not get any, to be honest the whole web thing is getting a bit tiresome, but I am simply wonder, based on the post that Stevenbjj made and knowing how many view (and practice Taiji) what the feeling or response would be if you mentioned a 70 year old that does taiji and also said it is a martial art. Not asking to fight, not wanting to fight and not looking for a fight, not showing up and saying I do taiji and I want to take on all comers not claiming vast martial arts ability or bragging about all those vanquished just saying I do martial arts and it is taiji and I am 70. 

I am guessing, and this is exactly that a guess, that he would not be taken seriously many places outside of an IMA board and even less so on a site like Bullshido. To be honest he would never go to any of them and if someone walked up to him and slapped together a whole lot of profanity to tell him he was a useless fake his only response would likely be your right, but then my Sanda Sifu would likely do the same as well so I am guessing in those cases it is a Chinese thing. They know what they are what they can and cannot do and do not really care about anyone beyond their Sifu as far as credibility goes. Which to me (going further off post) that is a real issue with all of this web nonsense, even here on MT with the copious TMA vs. RSBD vs. MMA stuff. Why does the opinion of a faceless and generally nameless person that you have no idea who they really are matter one whip about anything and how on earth does credibility from such a place that matter at all. They simply are not that important to reality as it exists for a martial artist IMO. And further more if you take the stance that either Sifu I had would they would instantaneously be labeled fake and the labelers would go off happy with there success and patting themselves on the back for a job well done when in reality it does not really matter at all.... as one told me early on MT when I was whining about Taiji dieing as a martial art "shut up and train"(and as much as it may pain me to admit it they were right in that case) and training is sure one heck of a lot more productive that the self congratulatory act after a delusional defeat of an opponent that was never fighting
 
Now on another site I use to go on fraud busting (hey look xue might be going back on topic..NAH!!! ) was generally based on lineage and fake claims that could be "historically" proven as factual or fake. And if that is what happening on Bullshido then more power to them, but if it is simply yelling about if you don't prove it your a fake then it is baseless, pointless and of little meaning, 

From my little experience with Bullshido it is not a real nice place to be, but I am more than willing to admit I could be very wrong since I am only judging it based on a few visits to look it over and leave and to be honest a place like the old EF could get pretty nasty as well but I was still posting there form time to time and there was silly *** arguments there to (I got in a couple, one I had to back off and post something that was basically oops, I'm an idiot because I was missing the point) and stupid comments but there were a lot of very knowledgeable people there that made it worth reading and maybe that is the case with Bullshido as well and all I saw when I was there were the loud mouths. 

 Wow...that was a a Xue rant and i never saw it coming...sorry about that.


----------



## Errant108

Xue Sheng said:


> This is going way off topic but...
> 
> You have already taken this a few step beyond what I was asking and made it confrontational and I was no where near that.



I'm not interested in any sort of confrontation with you, on this board, or in real life.  There seem to be some misunderstandings as to what Bullshido's position on things are, and I'm just trying to clear those up.



Xue Sheng said:


> I have little or no experience with Bullshido and likely will not get any, to be honest the whole web thing is getting a bit tiresome, but I am simply wonder, based on the post that Stevenbjj made and knowing how many view (and practice Taiji) what the feeling or response would be if you mentioned a 70 year old that does taiji and also said it is a martial art.



If a 70-year old tells me Taijiquan is a martial art, I'm going to take him at face-value and agree with him.  I've seen Taijiquan used as a martial art, I've seen it trained in a martial fashion.  This is slightly different from what you said earlier, and thus a different response.  The majority of posters on Bullshido will agree that Taijiquan is a martial art.  We have video footage of rigorous, full contact tuishou from China, so there is little doubt that Taijiquan is a martial art.

At the same time, you can't deny that the majority of people in the US who train in Taijiquan do not do so in any sort of martial fashion.

This creates a dichotomy when discussing this issue.

Steve's grandmother does not train Taijiquan as a martial art.  She wouldn't claim to either.

However, you and I both know that there are countless people who claim to train in martial Taijiquan yet do not train in any sort of martial fashion.

We have to distinguish between these three classes of Taijiquan practitioners.

Two of them, Bullshido won't have a problem with.

One of them, we will.



Xue Sheng said:


> Wow...that was a a Xue rant and i never saw it coming...sorry about that.



No worries.


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> This is going way off topic but...
> 
> You have already taken this a few step beyond what I was asking and made it confrontational and I was no where near that.
> 
> I have little or no experience with Bullshido and likely will not get any, to be honest the whole web thing is getting a bit tiresome, but I am simply wonder, based on the post that Stevenbjj made and knowing how many view (and practice Taiji) what the feeling or response would be if you mentioned a 70 year old that does taiji and also said it is a martial art. Not asking to fight, not wanting to fight and not looking for a fight, not showing up and saying I do taiji and I want to take on all comers not claiming vast martial arts ability or bragging about all those vanquished just saying I do martial arts and it is taiji and I am 70.
> 
> I am guessing, and this is exactly that a guess, that he would not be taken seriously many places outside of an IMA board and even less so on a site like Bullshido. To be honest he would never go to any of them and if someone walked up to him and slapped together a whole lot of profanity to tell him he was a useless fake his only response would likely be your right, but then my Sanda Sifu would likely do the same as well so I am guessing in those cases it is a Chinese thing. They know what they are what they can and cannot do and do not really care about anyone beyond their Sifu as far as credibility goes. Which to me (going further off post) that is a real issue with all of this web nonsense, even here on MT with the copious TMA vs. RSBD vs. MMA stuff. Why does the opinion of a faceless and generally nameless person that you have no idea who they really are matter one whip about anything and how on earth does credibility from such a place that matter at all. They simply are not that important to reality as it exists for a martial artist IMO. And further more if you take the stance that either Sifu I had would they would instantaneously be labeled fake and the labelers would go off happy with there success and patting themselves on the back for a job well done when in reality it does not really matter at all.... as one told me early on MT when I was whining about Taiji dieing as a martial art "shut up and train"(and as much as it may pain me to admit it they were right in that case) and training is sure one heck of a lot more productive that the self congratulatory act after a delusional defeat of an opponent that was never fighting
> 
> Now on another site I use to go on fraud busting (hey look xue might be going back on topic..NAH!!! ) was generally based on lineage and fake claims that could be "historically" proven as factual or fake. And if that is what happening on Bullshido then more power to them, but if it is simply yelling about if you don't prove it your a fake then it is baseless, pointless and of little meaning,
> 
> From my little experience with Bullshido it is not a real nice place to be, but I am more than willing to admit I could be very wrong since I am only judging it based on a few visits to look it over and leave and to be honest a place like the old EF could get pretty nasty as well but I was still posting there form time to time and there was silly *** arguments there to (I got in a couple, one I had to back off and post something that was basically oops, I'm an idiot because I was missing the point) and stupid comments but there were a lot of very knowledgeable people there that made it worth reading and maybe that is the case with Bullshido as well and all I saw when I was there were the loud mouths.
> 
> Wow...that was a a Xue rant and i never saw it coming...sorry about that.


Xue, I get your point, but you did invite the response Errant made by making a specific claim about the effectiveness of your teacher's martial arts.  He very simply pointed out that if you went to a board like Bullshido and said, "hey, my teacher has no interest in fighting or proving himself.  But boy, he can toss me around like a sack of grapes and whether he shows you or not, his taiji IS effective in a fight," you would likely be asked to substantiate the claim in some way.  Now, I realize that you didn't specifically say the last part, but it was implied when you ended your last post with, "and yet he can throw me around like a rag doll." 

As Errant said, if anything, the question that this raises is, "can he throw other people around like a rag doll?"  Lots of teachers toss around students, but can't seem to make it work on other people.  He also, I think very correctly, pointed out that anyone who challenges a 70 year old man is a jerk (to apply an MT censor to what I might say on Bullshido.)

The key here, though, is that if there aren't any outlandish claims, there's no issue.  I get a kick out of the guys who make claims and then, when questioned, say they have nothing to prove.  "My WC is the REAL WC."  Really?  Prove it.  "I have nothing to prove."


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## Archangel M

I went and sifted through these BS threads.

Im still unclear on what exactly it is they want or expect over there.

Do they have a problem that people here can list various arts on their profiles without "proof" of training? Do they require it?

Or does it only matter if people are opening schools or making money off of bogus rank claims?


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## Bob Hubbard

First Bullshido troll banned: 
MT Name: Peach Stealer
Bullshido user: NJM

Reason: Fake account registered solely to screw with us.


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## Bob Hubbard

Second Bullshido Troll baned:
MT User:*swordagjin*
Bullshido User: unknown
Reason: Racist Postings with intent to disrupt forum / posted under fake name

Looks like the Low IQ crowd at Bullshido is doing their usual game playing despite the High IQ members there working on cooperating together.  Guys, just to let you know, we'll still work with you, despite the couple of low IQ losers in question.

But I will continue to announce each and every one of their bannings as they happen.


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## shesulsa

Bob Hubbard said:


> Second Bullshido Troll baned:
> MT User:*swordagjin*
> Bullshido User: unknown
> Reason: Racist Postings with intent to disrupt forum / posted under fake name
> 
> Looks like the Low IQ crowd at Bullshido is doing their usual game playing despite the High IQ members there working on cooperating together.  Guys, just to let you know, we'll still work with you, despite the couple of low IQ losers in question.
> 
> But I will continue to announce each and every one of their bannings as they happen.



I know you've refrained from doing this for a long time, Bob, and I know why.  I hope some good will come out of this, even if only the exposed evidence of what they've been doing for years.


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## Bob Hubbard

Guys like Steve and Errant are here and being cool.  I'd like them to continue to feel welcome here.  It's the trouble makers who aren't welcome.

We ask for a name and a location, as most frauds won't even give you that much.  Most spam bots also rarely give you that.  Helps us weed out most of the crap.  The few that get through, don't last long.  There is -NO- way to verify ID online, without going to a pay system, and doing credit card validation or subscribing to one of the dozen porn industry id check services.  If it looks legit, we accept it, trusting that most people will be honest and not jerks.  As long as they don't slip up or give us cause to ask, we accept that.  When there is cause, we ask for a notarized copy of a redacted government issued ID for verification.  The frauds and real trolls never send in anything.  It's not fool proof, but it's what works for us without undue headaches to the 95% of our members who never cause us any reason for doubt in their integrity.

A few folks don't get that. That's their problem, and as we find them, we'll keep banning their low IQ selves.


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## Xue Sheng

Errant108 and stevebjj

First, my bad, I was not clear

The statement "toss me around like a rag doll" was only for the sole purpose of this conversation as a comparison to those that do not do taiji as a martial art and those that do and in response to stevenbjj's statement about his grandmother. It would have no way been posted in any conversation at Bullshido (that and I have no plan at all to post on Bullshido but then I am beginning to wonder why I post anywhere these days but that is besides that point)

I was simply asking about how &#8220;Bullshido&#8221; would respond to anyone that showed up on the page saying they did Taiji as a martial art, not hey I do Taiji and my sifu can kick my ***.

As to confrontational, it was not actually directed at anyone specifically it was directed at the general response to the question I thought I had asked which was how would "Bullshido" respond to anyone that showed up on the page saying they did Taiji as a martial art. However due to my wording I was not clear. 
My apologies for not being clear.

And for purposes of clearing this stuff up (not for bullshido ) my sifu doesn't do demos or advertise and I am his last serious student so tossing me around like a rag doll is tuishou, occasionally painful, rather cool and generally with no other students around. He is also the only person whose Qinna I have absolutely no clue is coming until it is to late and I am locked and I do not have his level of skill, but I&#8217;m working on it. 

As to taiji as a martial art, I tend to agree with Chen Xiaowang that for all intensive purposes it is dead due to the fact there are so few that know anything about the martial arts side of it as compared to those that do not. And my sifu has also said he has retired from teaching taiji since no one want to learn it, all he teaches now are forms. All students want these days are a few forms and then to run off and teach, no one wants the MA of it any longer which lead to him telling me I am his last serious taiji student but then I am his last long time student as well.

But none of this by any means changes my stance which I posted in stevenbjj&#8217;s thread where I pretty much said I dislike all martial arts, they are all ineffective and pathetic and if they have hippies in it (and taiji is full-o-them) doubly so 

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread and I am sorry for the hijack


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## Xue Sheng

Sorry, one more interuption



stevebjj said:


> The key here, though, is that if there aren't any outlandish claims, there's no issue. I get a kick out of the guys who make claims and then, when questioned, say they have nothing to prove. "My WC is the REAL WC." Really? Prove it. "I have nothing to prove."


 
One last comment, and I do not mean this to be insulting or derogatory and after this I am done. Something about Chinese culture that causes issues in this type of thing and leave most Americans practice exactly what I previously posted

&#8220;Self congratulatory acts, after delusional defeats, of opponents that were never fighting&#8221;


In a lot of areas of Chinese culture, not just CMA asking a Chinese person to &#8220;prove it&#8221; does not necessarily produce in them the need to actually prove anything at all.

At times they do not take us seriously as we tend to take ourselves and as arrogant as this can be we are equally guilty of arrogance on this from a slightly different POV. They can look as us as not serious and could care less about our opinion and we do take them seriously and we are so certain we are so important that our opinion should matter to all.

My taiji sifu would not tell anyone what he does and if someone found out and asked him to prove it and carried that further to calling him a fake for not proving it would like agree with them and tell him they are right he is a fake, as would my Sanda sifu. 

And you are likely to get the same response from multiple Chinese people in various areas and professions if they are from and trained on mainland China. This is a BIG cultural difference I have come across, bragging and proving things to others does not seem to be that important. Many Chinese millionaires will tell you they are poor and it is not a tax issue it is just cultural.

However none of this is saying that there are not charlatans and fakes out there that are Chinese making outrageous claims of great skill, my first sifu makes them all of the time these days. But then my taiji sifu will not even talk to him and (and you would need to check with a real CMA guy to know what this means) but my last sanda sifu has no problem calling my first sifu a flower fist when he sees him&#8230; in Chinese of course.

But then none of the people I have mentioned (other than my first sifu) go around telling any one anything about what they know or how good they are. As far as CMA is concerned it has been my experience that the best sifus do not really advertise much if at all and talk to few people about MA and never brag&#8230; this has been my experience with Wing Chun too, I know 3 Wing Chun teachers in my area, one tells all how tough he is, one has a school listed in the phone book and that is it and one does not advertise at all the first is a student of some guy (American) in Syracuse who is supposedly in the Mo Yat lineage the second (American) is a student of Ip Ching and the 3rd (Chinese) is a student of Ip Man :asian:


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## grydth

Looking at this episode as a complete outsider - I couldn't pick Matt Morton out of a 2 man line up - I am left with the same question Steve McQueen had at the close of *The Sand Pebbles* : "What the hell happened?"

On the face of things, the Bullshido contingent got what they appear to have come for. Matt Morton, who had many senior people among his 62 friends, is now listed as a "Banned User".

Yet, I note little or no gratitude toward Bullshido.... could it be because some acted more like a lynch mob member than a Roman Tribune? Could it be because they insisted on fighting this drama here, even when it was not wanted?... and that they were coarse and condescending to their unwilling hosts?  Could it be that their behavior, motives yield some questions as well?

Ultimately, what is gained? If Mr Morton be a fraud, he presumably gains from it by teaching, not posting here. Tossing him off an internet forum won't affect very much in the real world. One might just as well blacken the name of grydth across the length and breadth of Tasmania.

It could be that more harm than good will result from this entire episode.


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## Omar B

Just read some topics over at Bullshido this morning.  As I said before, it's a pretty funny site.  It does get a bit much sometimes with the piling on, seems like a witch hunt at times.  I see opinions (often decenting) on the value of various styles treated as fact, like BBT.  Many styles get savaged it seems in favor of almost stock answers in muay thai and bjj.  A styles value in not measured solely by it's use in the ring, I always ask, best, by what standards.

There's also a really long topic about Choi Kwang Do and it's founder.  Personally, I've trained in the style, met the man and several other instructors and I find both the style and him pretty cool.  It was an interesting read, but it's not gonna change my opinion on the style or the man, I learned a lot that I value from it.

It's pretty fun over there, but for me it sometimes takes days to get back to a topic here and on K4L, I can imagine adding another site to that list.  But as I said before, just like this place, it has it's value and serves it's purpose.  Layout could be smoothed out though, to my eyes it seems cluttered.


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## Rich Parsons

stevebjj said:


> ...
> 
> The key here, though, is that if there aren't any outlandish claims, there's no issue. I get a kick out of the guys who make claims and then, when questioned, say they have nothing to prove. "My WC is the REAL WC." Really? Prove it. "I have nothing to prove."


 
Steve et al,

And this maybe my problem from early on, both at Bullshido and MT in the early days. If someone called someone out, I would not tell them not too, but I would start asking questions of the person calling out to better understand their point of view and or agenda. I would be attacked, by multiple people and say I was being abusive and insulting. Once it got to the point I tried to be good. But what I found was that in many cases they either moved on and bullied others, or continued their comments. So, I would mirror them. If they said something one way I would say it back. If they called me a name I would call them that name. (* Something I learned a long time ago while bein in elementary and junior high, is that people call you the worst name they can think of, so if you call them the same name back it has a bigger impact may times than the name you might have used in the first place. *) 

I am not innocent as I waded through the mud. But pigs and engineers like the mud. But today I prefer not to go through the mud, and let others worry about it. 

I understand integrity. 

I understand getting the word out to avoid others from being taking advantage of. 

I understand that people want to believe that what they do is the best (* Ego, or else why would we may the money and spend the time? *). 

I have had problems with some of the Balintawak Masters and their re-written history. Many of their students have gotten upset with me and attacked me online. But, I have always attacked their comments, not their skill set. I have even told people to go check them out for if they trained with the people from the club at that time, they should have some good knowledge, but their version of history is not even close to what any of the multiple lineages have. I argued the overlapping circles of the venn diagrahm for oral histories, while others will say my arguement back to me after I shown that it is not valid to publish your false story in a book and then use said book as a reference to validate the story. 

So I understand the purpose of Bullshido. I just did not feel comfortable or accepted. But as you stated it not the same site as others nor should it be.


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## Errant108

Bob Hubbard said:


> Second Bullshido Troll baned:
> MT User:*swordagjin*
> Bullshido User: unknown
> Reason: Racist Postings with intent to disrupt forum / posted under fake name
> 
> Looks like the Low IQ crowd at Bullshido is doing their usual game playing despite the High IQ members there working on cooperating together.  Guys, just to let you know, we'll still work with you, despite the couple of low IQ losers in question.
> 
> But I will continue to announce each and every one of their bannings as they happen.



We know for sure this guy is a Bully?


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## Bob Hubbard

Errant108 said:


> We know for sure this guy is a Bully?


99% certain.  Timing is suspicious, plus others on BSdo have indicated they also have registered fake accounts here.  The content was close to posts made by several active BS members in the award thread and the 'mt harbors frauds' threads.  I'd be happy to compare IP addresses with an admin over there I could trust, however so far I've received no reply to my offer from Phrost, and I wouldn't trust Cy any further than I could throw the Giza pyramids.  Other aspects of the registration point at someone involved in the Morton threads there being behind it.


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## Errant108

I'm cool with it as long as he's being banned for racism and not for being a Bully.


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## Bob Hubbard

For the record: Any member of Bullshido who can operate within our rules, who is coming here to contribute to the site is welcome.  Any member of Bullshido who is coming here to be a jerk, disrupt, troll or try and show us up, will be banned.  Replace "Bullshido" with any other site name as applicable.


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## shesulsa

Errant108 said:


> I'm cool with it as long as he's being banned for racism and not for being a Bully.





Bob Hubbard said:


> For the record: Any member of Bullshido who can operate within our rules, who is coming here to contribute to the site is welcome.  Any member of Bullshido who is coming here to be a jerk, disrupt, troll or try and show us up, will be banned.  Replace "Bullshido" with any other site name as applicable.



For clarity only - not trying to pick on anyone here - Bob, does the generally accepted definition of the term "bully" fall within the guidelines of acceptable behavior on MT?  I'm asking in the general terms because I think what you laid out in the quote above pretty much defines (though not totally) a "bully."  

Thanks.


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## Errant108

bully = Jerk

Bully = Person who posts on Bullshido.


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## Gordon Nore

Errant108 said:


> Gordon Nore said:
> 
> 
> 
> QFT. I'm not trashing Bullshido here either. People can get over zealous in their mission to root out fraud. All of a sudden people are being called frauds because their MA practice is unconventional, or maybe they just aren't terribly good at it. Fraud busting can be the veneer that covers for style bashing or rudeness.
> 
> 
> 
> No one is called a fraud for unconventional training methods.
> 
> We have a very VERY precise definition of a fraud.  That is someone claiming to be something that they are not for the sake of profit...
Click to expand...


Again, I'm not talking about Bullshido per se. I am talking about individuals who take it upon themselves to root out fraud or whatever they happen to think fraud is. I may know what fraud is. Bullshido may know what fraud is. But the Internet is full of self-proclaimed experts on a mission.

My post was in regard to the MT policy, and, as a member, I don't particularly want to see the forum cluttered up with threads professing to be fraud busting, but which in fact are attacks on character on style.

Whatever Bullshido is or does can take place on Bullshido.


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## Bob Hubbard

Gordon,  Like many things we do, anything under this particular heading is going to be funneled to 1 special area.  As with anything, we'll make some mistakes, we'll learn and we'll get better.


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## jks9199

Bob Hubbard said:


> For the record: Any member of Bullshido who can operate within our rules, who is coming here to contribute to the site is welcome.  Any member of Bullshido who is coming here to be a jerk, disrupt, troll or try and show us up, will be banned.  Replace "Bullshido" with any other site name as applicable.


Or no site name!  We're equal opportunity; whether a troll and problem child comes here on their own or from any other forum, they'll be dealt with the same way.


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## jks9199

Gordon Nore said:


> Again, I'm not talking about Bullshido per se. I am talking about individuals who take it upon themselves to root out fraud or whatever they happen to think fraud is. I may know what fraud is. Bullshido may know what fraud is. But the Internet is full of self-proclaimed experts on a mission.
> 
> My post was in regard to the MT policy, and, as a member, I don't particularly want to see the forum cluttered up with threads professing to be fraud busting, but which in fact are attacks on character on style.
> 
> Whatever Bullshido is or does can take place on Bullshido.


I'm not speaking for Bob, and this is more my personal opinion than a guarantee of the official staff opinion.  I'll let Bob or some more senior folks draw the official, Official Line.  This is just my take...

If someone comes here, and politely and courteously question someone's credentials or knowledge...  They're welcome to do so!  When it becomes fraudbusting is when they start following the target from thread to thread, demanding they "prove themselves!" or when the questions become accusatory or personal attacks.  It's a gray line -- but it's one of those things (maybe like one judge notably said about pornography) that you know when you see it.


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## Bob Hubbard

Pretty much my thoughts here.

Couple things to keep in mind:
- This isn't turning MT into BSjr.
- This isn't intended to change MT for most of our members.

It basically does 3 things:
1- Extends an invitation of cooperation with one of the few sites we don't maintain cordial relations with. (Most members aren't aware that MT is on good terms with other sites such as e-budo, budoseep, defend, martial arts planet, karate forums, fmatalk, fmaforum and kenponet to name a few. We cooperate in many ways, from technical assistance, to content sharing to just being able to say "hey, having any issues with X lately?".

2- Clarifies our existing policies better as there has been misunderstanding in the pst as to what is and isn't allowed.

3- Opens a focused area for our members and visitors to share concerns on schools, instructors, products and companies they are involved with in a professional manner.


This is not about Bullshido vs MartialTalk. Neither site will ever be the other, and that is a good thing, because both appeal to different niches and different types of people.


One point I must be clear on however.  
Our policy allows anyone to question. 
It does not require anyone to answer. 
Anyone asking a question is doing so as a single private citizen, and I am unaware of any law that forces 1 citizen to answer another citizen, unless the questioner is a judge or law enforcement officer acting in an official manner. So, the argument "you don't make them answer" is because we aren't able to legally.


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## Steve

Typing on phone so bear with me.  I can't help but think that this has all gotten way more complicated than it needs to be.  Why can't MT simply adopt a policy that makes it clear it's not a fraudbusting community, but in the event that sufficient evidence surfaces that a person is misrepresenting him or herself in a fraudulent way, MT will do... Something.  Right now it's a ban.  I don't necessarily agree with that but would get behind a "fraud" badge or something.  I have found that less is more where rules are concerned. 

And it a little funny to me that a bunch of libertarians are generating a Pretty severe policy document.


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## Jenna

Yes I think I would agree with Steve.  MT is as it says a place for friendly discussion of the martial arts.  I do not think it was set up as a vetting agency for all the martial arts world's boasters, braggarts and miscreants.  I think that would be a full-time position for anyone!  Should these people appear then yes [and I have seen it aplenty here with many of the next-big-thing-RBMA guys who have come on all shouty and full of empty bravado] we should be at liberty to question those claims just as most of us would seek proof that Product X really DID clean our shirts whiter than any other, yes.  OTOH, most of us are not here to don our capes and venture into the darkened realms of teh intran3t to quash those bold enough to claim one thing or another, we are only here for a little chat yes??

Though both of our sites have legally qualified and competent members, that is not the same as the sites being able [or capable] to enact any litigation in cases where fraud may be suspected.  Therefore in all this Fraudbusters-vs-Harbourers farrago, I see a terrible amount of smoke and but I do not see any fire.  I do not understand why any one site should feel in a morally superior position since if we are being brutally honest, we are mere MA discussion forums on the internet and not NATO.  This kind of fraudbusting is a little too half-assed, incompetent and vigilante I think.  I am sorry I do not want to be glib and but whilst I accept rivalry between sites discussing the same subject [that is a given] I do not see the reason for this degree of animosity.  It is a little pathetic to me I think..

I think to have Bob and the staff here *** about checking credentials of every single poster would engender a forum filled with the most dreary to-and-fro, yes-I-am / no-you're-not inconclusive pantomime threads.  Furthermore, in order for that kind of activity to have any legitimacy, the members on the site [whichever we are talking] would surely have to be themselves, trained and vetted for that specific task by the governing bodies on whose behalf they purport to act as "fraudbusters"??

I do not think it should be incumbent upon Bob or the staff to susbtantiate or disprove any claims.  For me that would be veering towards the kind of small-scale despotism or I think Shesulsa referenced McCarthyism that I do not like to see on Bullshido yet it is there veiled under the banner of public service.  

I would make another suggestion that MT [members collectively] might perhaps be able to compile a section or an INDEX perhaps in which visitors lacking experience and thinking of joining an MA club or school will appreciate potentially what to look for or questions to ask [insurance certification / instructors cleared to work with minors / how to spot competence of instructors etc] and which sites are those of the governing bodies of the various arts that they might do their own independent searches or find contact details etc.  I think that is a task of some scale and perhaps not do-able and but I do not believe there is one single resource like that anywhere yet I think it would be a potentially big draw..

Jenna x


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## Bob Hubbard

Always good to have some tips and advice up.


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## shesulsa

We do have a "Beginners Corner" and "Ask the MT Advisory Board" and it would be great if they were utilized more.


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## jks9199

shesulsa said:


> We do have a "Beginners Corner" and "Ask the MT Advisory Board" and it would be great if they were utilized more.


Some of those sorts of things are also stickied at the top of appropriate forums, too...


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## Xue Sheng

stevebjj said:


> Typing on phone so bear with me. I can't help but think that this has all gotten way more complicated than it needs to be. Why can't MT simply adopt a policy that makes it clear it's not a fraudbusting community, but in the event that sufficient evidence surfaces that a person is misrepresenting him or herself in a fraudulent way, MT will do... Something. Right now it's a ban. I don't necessarily agree with that but would get behind a "fraud" badge or something. I have found that less is more where rules are concerned.
> 
> And it a little funny to me that a bunch of libertarians are generating a Pretty severe policy document.


 
To some extent fraud busting has happened on MT and it was not, I have been told, against the rules. However the actual fraud was not the one posting but if he was I would have done the same exact thing and will should something similar happen in the future. It also happened with a poster talking Chen as well but I really did not feel like looking for it, it was a long time ago and in that case I reported it to the moderators.

Yang Fukui 

IMO if someone can come on any webpage and post blatant lies about their background, training or their teachers background and training it needs to be pointed out


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