# Using Nails in a Fight, Effective of Ineffective?



## Kane

Many describe using nails in a street fight the woman's way of fighting. However, does that mean it won't work? Would you use your nails in a street fight? Usually if you use your nails to strike, you might be able to cut your attacker. However you might break a nail in the process which can be somewhat painful as well.

I think I would use mine in grappling. Every grip I make I would use my nails and sink it into whatever move (armbar, choke, ect.) I am doing. I don't think I would use it strike, because breaking a nail might not be the wisest (well that is if your life is not at stake, then it is maybe okay).

Also does anyone in hear sharpen their nails just for self-defense? Sound strange to me, but it might no be a bad idea.


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## GAB

Hi Kane,

I like to carry a 16 penny nail around in my watch pocket, since I am a carpenter I know what a nail will do to you... I recommend them highly...

You have to watch out for us old guys we have lots of tricks... 

Regards, Gary


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## digitalronin

You can pound some into a louisville slugger and make a nasty club out of of them ....
oh u mean human nails   rake the eyes and follow with something with a bit more impact


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## bignick

My judo instructor has told me of when he was stationed in japan he'd heard stories about Chinise Martial Arts practitioners sharpening their nails.  But I have none to speak of so it's not really an option for me.  Plus, training on a regular basis you'd think the nails would break or end up scratching yourself or your partners.


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## Knifehand

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kane,
> 
> I like to carry a 16 penny nail around in my watch pocket, since I am a carpenter I know what a nail will do to you... I recommend them highly...
> 
> You have to watch out for us old guys we have lots of tricks...
> 
> Regards, Gary


 
LOL:boing1:


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## mj-hi-yah

When we teach _Women's Self Defense_ we recommend using your nails or keys held between your fingers to rake across your attackers face (eyes).  This way if he is caught, the authorities can match up the distance between keys held between your fingers to the marks left on the attacker.  Also your nails or keys will contain your attacker's DNA...so you shouldn't wash them without going to the police to give a sample first.


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## Cruentus

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> When we teach _Women's Self Defense_ we recommend using your nails or keys held between your fingers to rake across your attackers face (eyes).  This way if he is caught, the authorities can match up the distance between keys held between your fingers to the marks left on the attacker.  Also your nails or keys will contain your attacker's DNA...so you shouldn't wash them without going to the police to give a sample first.



I am going to express a difference of opinion here, so please don't take offense.

If you want to "win" on the street, I don't suggest doing things that will create only superficial damage or a little pain. Scratching the nails or raking with a key would fall into this category.

Most likely if someone has the nuts to attack you, they think that they'll win. They may have size, strength, weapons, numbers, sheer aggressiveness, or any number of things in their favor. Superficial damage or any technique reliant only on "pain complaince" is just not enough to stop someone geared up to hurt you.

Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first. In other words, you need to create as much trauma as quickly as possible to stop the threat enough to allow you to escape.

Eye gauges are great for creating trauma, but a simple claw or thumb gauge (nails or not) with intent to severely damage is enough to do the trick, and is more efficient and effective then trying to scratch with nails or keys.

Paul


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## MA-Caver

(Human) nails are definitely a fine way to go if one doesn't have them manicured or trimmed (or bitten down). I've used my nails in "for-real" fights before and I'll say they are highly effective. They'll leave a mark that'll stick around for weeks if you gouge/scratch deeply enough, it'll remind the guy/attacker not to mess with you again. 
As for strengthening nails. I've a friend who is considered one of the top classical (acoustic) guitarists in the country. He never uses a pick and has his nails long. I've seen him pick up an ordinary house brick using just the nails and not the fingertips. They're strong. He says the secret... "eat lots of jello". Apparently gelatin provides the necessary ...umm, whatever, that strengthens the nails. Since the man practices four hours daily (no kidding) on his guitar using only his nails and they maintain their shape and don't flake or chip... I'd say he's found a good way to keep his nails the way they're supposed to. 
So there are ways to keep your nails strong and as an "additional weapon" without the worry of breaking. 
But then when you're in a "for-real" fight you shouldn't even worry about going all prissy and breaking a nail. Just do it and bear the pain later. ... you *did/do* want to win that/those fight(a) didn't/don't you?? 

 :asian:


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## Cruentus

MACaver said:
			
		

> (Human) nails are definitely a fine way to go if one doesn't have them manicured or trimmed (or bitten down). I've used my nails in "for-real" fights before and I'll say they are highly effective.



May I ask what you did exactly?


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## MA-Caver

Tulisan said:
			
		

> May I ask what you did exactly?


Well ... yes you may ask.... 


Oh! Umm, well basically what I remember is that in jr. high school a guy kept pushing me back against a row of lockers trying to goad me into a fight. He was succeeding mostly in just pissing me off. I honestly didn't want to fight him as he outweighed me by at least 50 lbs and was two grades older than I was (being a 7th grader at the time, it was a joint jr-high/high school). He finally tired of just pushing me and tried to do the lapel grab-lift thing and that's when I grabbed around either side of his head with my hands and raked from his ears to his nose. He dropped me two-quick and that put me off balance and back against the lockers and now about facing his gut. Couple of jabs there got him staggered back enough to give me the room I needed to slip sideways out and hauling-azz down the hall to the nearest exit door. 
Next day he had two rows of scratches on one side of his face and a nice good one along another. One of the scratches was near his eye. 
For a while I was accused of "fighting like a girl" and having "nails like a girl" and being a homosexshul... fortunately one of the prettiest girls in my grade level/class kept hanging around with me and dispelling the rumor. 
The guy didn't seek payback or anything. I know I didn't hit him hard-enough in the gut to really hurt, but he must've felt them and reacted instinctively to back off. I'm guessing the fierceness of my defense was enough to let him know it wasn't a good idea to tangle with me.
However; it didn't discourage others from trying their hand with me, and I ran a lot or got caught in a corner a lot over the next couple of months. My older brother got wind of it and managed to put a stop to it all by mixing it with the guys trying to mix it with me. Pretty soon it got around to mess with him you have to face his brother. To my memory my brother never lost a fight. 
 :idunno: 
Growing pains and finally a decision to study MA. But the lesson of using my nails stuck with me. Also the lesson of my eldest brother :"There's no such thing as a fair fight!" 
 :uhyeah:


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## Raewyn

I dont mean to sound humourous when I say this, but in regards to nails when fighting (street reality) I have found that if your nails are not hardened enough they tend to bend backwards which causes more harm to yourself then to the person you are fighting with.  They can in some circumstances be more of a hindrance then a help.


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## Cruentus

MACaver,

When we look at the dynamics of the situation, we find that the circumstance involved one Jr. High Schooler trying to posture and Bully another. In your circumstance, superficial scratches with the nails worked, which is good.

However, 2 high school kids quarelling is far different then 2 adults fighting to really hurt each other, or someone trying to hurt or kill another. I think you will agree with me at least on that much.

If someone is trying to really hurt or kill you, I maintain that superficial attacks like "scratching" are not the options you should be employing. This is especially true if you are a woman trying to fend off a larger and stronger male. Superficial wounds will likely only piss off an aggressive attacker more so then prevent them from hurting you. If you are able to scratch at their face, then what you should be doing is gauging your fingers or thumbs through their eye sockets, or ripping their ears off, or striking with as much force as you can. Every second counts, and every second should be utilized to create the trauma necessary to stop the attacker so you can escape. No time should be wasted on tactics that create only superficial damage, as wasting time could get you killed.

Now, I am not discrediting your experience, as every experience is a valuable learning tool. I appreciate your honesty so we could discuss the details of the matter.

Side note: that was funny to read about your older brother. I know what your talking about, as I WAS the older brother. Nobody messed with my 2 little brothers when they were in school!  :uhyeah: 

Paul


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## KenpoTex

Something I thought of while reading this...

How many of us have nails long enough to really gouge/rake anyway?  I would venture to guess that most of you (I know I do) keep them short to avoid accidental injuries in the studio.
  something else to consider, with long nails it's kinda hard to make a proper fist.  It's not too uncommon for a woman to start at the studio and in the course of training I'll notice that they're having problems punching, a lot of times it's the fact that they can't make a good fist w/o their nails digging in and/or breaking.

just some random thoughts...


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## Raewyn

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Something I thought of while reading this...
> 
> How many of us have nails long enough to really gouge/rake anyway?  I would venture to guess that most of you (I know I do) keep them short to avoid accidental injuries in the studio.
> something else to consider, with long nails it's kinda hard to make a proper fist.  It's not too uncommon for a woman to start at the studio and in the course of training I'll notice that they're having problems punching, a lot of times it's the fact that they can't make a good fist w/o their nails digging in and/or breaking.
> 
> just some random thoughts...


 I used to have long nails, but than I started training in MA and found them more of a nuisance than anything else, I either hurt someone unintentially with them or I hurt myself, either way they were are a pain in the butt, so I cut them off!!!!!!


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## KenpoTess

If one of my students has long nails and is scratching people they work with .. they are told to cut em.. we in our studio keep them short.. as anyone who's been sliced by a human nail.. knows the pain and infection that soon ensues after the wound.  What's under even clean nails can cause staph infection if broadcast to another via a scratch, so if you don't inflict a deadly wound to your opponent.. they may later thank you for the infection they will never forget 

 I would rather keep my nails trimmed to the tip of my finger than extending past -if in a confrontation they will do damage at that length if need be. 
 I've worked with girls with acrylic nails (in the college groups) most of them lost a nail along with part of their own underneath and were in severe pain.. so for acrylic .. I say Definitely don't rely on them for a 'weapon'.. 

This is more of a 'To each his Own' scenario.. Whatever works for you.. use what you have.


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## DarrenJew

I would say a nail gouge would be totally ineffective in a real fight. When I was young just starting to take Martial Arts.... one of my former classmates decided he was going to do a surprise groin kick, I had no cup on.. we were not sparing, in fact I was in a middle of a conversation with another student when he walked up to us and kicked me in the groin. Im adrenaline was immediately raised and I kicked him back in the groin as hard as I could. He never returned to class.... during the incident I really did not have time to feel the pain, I knew I was kicked... after everything had settled down I knew I was hurt and for the next 3 weeks I was carrying around a very large peach in my pants. After that experience, I always wore a cup in class before I've even entered the studio.

Adrenaline is really an amazing drug  ps. I am currently happily married and have two wonderful children... so I guess the damage was not perminent. whewww......


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## FearlessFreep

Being a bass guitarist, I use to keep the nails on my right hand a bit long to usefor grabbing the strings.  Then I noticed in some classes that when I was making a good fist and punching hard that the nails would dig into my own palm; it left marks and it hurt.  So now I keep my nails short so I can punch more effectively without causing myself damage


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## KyleShort

This is a bit silly to me.

Self defense is about trauma.  Fighting is about pain.  I knew a guy many years back that used his nails effectively in high school fights...but by design those cease when they get uncomfortable for the willing participants in the fight.

In self defense you best not rely on something like scratching.  Your nerves are dulled by heavy doses of adrenaline and you won't likely know that you were scratched until it is all over.


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## Fightfan00

I wouldnt hesitate to use my nails,poke your eye out,face gouging,or just about any dirty tactic to teach someone a lesson for trying their hand at getting me.Now i'm not saying it will always work but you do your best.


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## Gin-Gin

Kane said:
			
		

> Many describe using nails in a street fight the woman's way of fighting. However, does that mean it won't work? Would you use your nails in a street fight?


I don't consider using fingernails in a streetfight the "woman's way" of fighting; they are just another weapon in one's arsenal to me.  *Hell yes*, I'd use my nails in a streetfight, as well as all of my other natural weapons!  Mr. Parker was often quoted as saying that "there are no rules in the street" & I agree with that.  No disrespect to our LEOs, but they can't do anything for you (unless they're your MA instructor  ) until AFTER you've been attacked.  I don't keep my nails very long (because they get in they way of sparring), but they are just past my finger, & yes, the way I would use them if I were in a fight for my life, they *would* be an effective weapon.  *Clawing* is very different from *scratching*.

But that's my opinion.  As KenpoTess said, "this is more of a 'To each his Own' scenario.. Whatever works for you.. use what you have."


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## Cruentus

> they would be an effective weapon. Clawing is very different from scratching.



If, for example, you're jamming your fingers into your attacker eyballs as if to scratch the back of his skull through his sockets, then I would argue that you are attacking with your fingers and entire body (that is behind your "claw"). Nails may slightly multiply the force, but in most cases they aren't really what makes the tactic work.

Paul


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## dubljay

For myself using figner nails in a fight would be about as effective as beating them with a wet tortilla considering I have the nasty habit of chewing on my finger nails.


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## sgtmac_46

Kane said:
			
		

> Many describe using nails in a street fight the woman's way of fighting. However, does that mean it won't work? Would you use your nails in a street fight? Usually if you use your nails to strike, you might be able to cut your attacker. However you might break a nail in the process which can be somewhat painful as well.
> 
> I think I would use mine in grappling. Every grip I make I would use my nails and sink it into whatever move (armbar, choke, ect.) I am doing. I don't think I would use it strike, because breaking a nail might not be the wisest (well that is if your life is not at stake, then it is maybe okay).
> 
> Also does anyone in hear sharpen their nails just for self-defense? Sound strange to me, but it might no be a bad idea.


The only use for the nails would be using one to scratch or punture the eyes.  I've been scratched, it's annoying and it's likely to make me mad, but other than that it's futile.


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## KenpoTex

A couple more thoughts...





			
				KyleShort said:
			
		

> In self defense you best not rely on something like scratching.  Your nerves are dulled by heavy doses of adrenaline and you won't likely know that you were scratched until it is all over.


 This is an excellent point.  In my experience (and I'm sure quite a few of you can relate) I don't know how many times I've been scratched, scraped, bruised, gouged, etc. in class and, due to addreneline, didn't notice until either after class, or until someone said "hey dude, you're bleeding."  A lot of times, you just don't feel it, and that's just in class. 


			
				sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> The only use for the nails would be using one to scratch or punture the eyes.


 That is one way to look at it, on the other hand, when you jam your thumbs up to the second joint into someone's eyes, it ain't gonna matter how long (or short) your nails are.


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## MJS

They, just like all of our tools in SD, have their place and time.  Its a matter of knowing what the correct place and time is.  A scratch is certainly not a fight stopper, but it may give you that momentary distraction to set something else up.  An example of this could be from a bear hug position.  Digging your nails into the lat muscle area, can provide a momentary distraction to set up other counters.  

Is it the end all be all of techs? Nope, but again, its simply a tool to have in your box, should you choose to use it.

Mike


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## Makalakumu

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I am going to express a difference of opinion here, so please don't take offense.
> 
> If you want to "win" on the street, I don't suggest doing things that will create only superficial damage or a little pain. Scratching the nails or raking with a key would fall into this category.
> 
> Most likely if someone has the nuts to attack you, they think that they'll win. They may have size, strength, weapons, numbers, sheer aggressiveness, or any number of things in their favor. Superficial damage or any technique reliant only on "pain complaince" is just not enough to stop someone geared up to hurt you.
> 
> Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first. In other words, you need to create as much trauma as quickly as possible to stop the threat enough to allow you to escape.
> 
> Eye gauges are great for creating trauma, but a simple claw or thumb gauge (nails or not) with intent to severely damage is enough to do the trick, and is more efficient and effective then trying to scratch with nails or keys.
> 
> Paul



I'm going to have to go with Paul on this one.  In opinion, for self defense, one has got to develop powerful strikes to vulnerable parts of the body.  One must learn how to throw someone to the ground.  One must learn how to fall and fight on the ground.  Use simple techniques that maximize your speed and strength.

I'm afraid that using your nails or keys, unless used against extremely vulnerable areas of the body, will only be a waste of the precious time that one does not have in a real fight.


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## sgtmac_46

kenpotex said:
			
		

> A couple more thoughts... This is an excellent point. In my experience (and I'm sure quite a few of you can relate) I don't know how many times I've been scratched, scraped, bruised, gouged, etc. in class and, due to addreneline, didn't notice until either after class, or until someone said "hey dude, you're bleeding." A lot of times, you just don't feel it, and that's just in class.
> That is one way to look at it, on the other hand, when you jam your thumbs up to the second joint into someone's eyes, it ain't gonna matter how long (or short) your nails are.


You got a point there.


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## MA-Caver

Tulisan said:
			
		

> MACaver,
> 
> When we look at the dynamics of the situation, we find that the circumstance involved one Jr. High Schooler trying to posture and Bully another. In your circumstance, superficial scratches with the nails worked, which is good.
> 
> However, 2 high school kids quarelling is far different then 2 adults fighting to really hurt each other, or someone trying to hurt or kill another. I think you will agree with me at least on that much.
> 
> If someone is trying to really hurt or kill you, I maintain that superficial attacks like "scratching" are not the options you should be employing. This is especially true if you are a woman trying to fend off a larger and stronger male. Superficial wounds will likely only piss off an aggressive attacker more so then prevent them from hurting you. If you are able to scratch at their face, then what you should be doing is gauging your fingers or thumbs through their eye sockets, or ripping their ears off, or striking with as much force as you can. Every second counts, and every second should be utilized to create the trauma necessary to stop the attacker so you can escape. No time should be wasted on tactics that create only superficial damage, as wasting time could get you killed.
> 
> Now, I am not discrediting your experience, as every experience is a valuable learning tool. I appreciate your honesty so we could discuss the details of the matter.
> 
> Side note: that was funny to read about your older brother. I know what your talking about, as I WAS the older brother. Nobody messed with my 2 little brothers when they were in school!  :uhyeah:
> 
> Paul


I do agree yes, that between adults it may not be as dibilitating <sic> as say between two kids. Yet, during the jr. high fight; I wasn't going for his eyes or other vitals on his face either, I just wanted to get the hell away from him because I knew (instinctively??)  if he got started on me I'd be hurting ... bad. 
If I'm ever in that situation again (hopefully never    ) I would definitely use what-ever means necessary to hurt my opponent as much as possible to end the fight as quickly as possible. If that means digging what nails I may or may not have into vitals then by all means .. hell yeah!  

I like what Tess said about giving them a possible staph infection on top of whatever hurt you inflict. Keep 'em hurting long afterwards. Hopefully (again) it'll make 'em think twice. 

Yeah older brothers are cool ... sometimes. heh While mine stuck up for me at school, he beat the crap out of me whenever we got into it at home... so it balanced out. :lol:


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## Gin-Gin

kenpotex said:
			
		

> A couple more thoughts... This is an excellent point.  In my experience (and I'm sure quite a few of you can relate) I don't know how many times I've been scratched, scraped, bruised, gouged, etc. in class and, due to addreneline, didn't notice until either after class, or until someone said "hey dude, you're bleeding."  A lot of times, you just don't feel it, and that's just in class.


Yes, but your classmates aren't *trying* to hurt you; on the street is a different situation/environment.   As MJS said, "they, just like all of our tools in SD, have their place and time. Its a matter of knowing what the correct place and time is."


			
				MACaver said:
			
		

> I would definitely use whatever means necessary to hurt my opponent as much as possible to end the fight as quickly as possible. If that means digging what nails I may or may not have into vitals then by all means .. hell yeah!  I like what Tess said about giving them a possible staph infection on top of whatever hurt you inflict. Keep 'em hurting long afterwards. Hopefully (again) it'll make 'em think twice.


*That's* what I'm talking about!


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## still learning

Hello, This is just another weapon that can be use. Long or short it can still hurt you. Can be effective against the eyes. No ones likes to get scar by nails. Ever got pinch by someone with long nails? Ouch! 
  Real fights has no rules, use what you got.  ......Aloha


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## JAMJTX

Anything that works!
Finger nails, especially in the eyes, can inflict some pain.
This type of pain is not severe and will only really be a distraction but it will give you a chance to either get away or get in another shot.  Nails in the eyes is another story.

Also, scratching will make sure you get some of your attackers DNA which can be used as evidence if needed.


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## kenpo tiger

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Something I thought of while reading this...
> 
> How many of us have nails long enough to really gouge/rake anyway? I would venture to guess that most of you (I know I do) keep them short to avoid accidental injuries in the studio.
> something else to consider, with long nails it's kinda hard to make a proper fist. It's not too uncommon for a woman to start at the studio and in the course of training I'll notice that they're having problems punching, a lot of times it's the fact that they can't make a good fist w/o their nails digging in and/or breaking.
> 
> just some random thoughts...


I do.  *after all, I'm a tiger*

I have had long nails since I began MA over nine years ago and they have not hindered my training.  In fact, you should realize that having long (or longer) nails is an asset to an extent in kenpo.  With all the eye rakes, gouges, eye fans and claws we employ in our techs, it doesn't matter if *one* has long(er) nails.

Tulisan,
I think you haven't understood what MJ was describing upthread.  When we teach our women's self defense classes, the students are women who are not martial artists.  We are teaching them ways of defending themselves to enable them to feel that they CAN fight back and that they can get away to safety or get help by using their natural weapons.  It takes a while for women to adjust to hurting anyone.  We're nurturers by birth.

However, I agree with you in that *one* should not rely solely upon scratching in a fight.  kt


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## Zepp

As FearlessFreep has already noted, long nails tend to get in the way of making a tight fist.  If you train to fight with open-handed strikes, relying on palm strikes, knifehands, etc., then keeping your nails long might be more practical.  If you do a lot of grappling work in your training, then I imagine having long nails will probably piss off your training partners.


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## Raewyn

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I do. *after all, I'm a tiger*
> 
> I have had long nails since I began MA over nine years ago and they have not hindered my training. In fact, you should realize that having long (or longer) nails is an asset to an extent in kenpo. With all the eye rakes, gouges, eye fans and claws we employ in our techs, it doesn't matter if *one* has long(er) nails.
> 
> However, I agree with you in that *one* should not rely solely upon scratching in a fight. kt


 
Hey, this post probably belongs to the LLR but how do you stop your nails from bending....... say backwards.  I went to push someone away one time and my thumbnail (quite long at the time) actually bent back halfway down the base of my nail...........man what a killer that was.  I also have a tendency of scratching myself.  Also how do you manage to close your fist??


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## Cruentus

> Tulisan,
> I think you haven't understood what MJ was describing upthread. When we teach our women's self defense classes, the students are women who are not martial artists. We are teaching them ways of defending themselves to enable them to feel that they CAN fight back and that they can get away to safety or get help by using their natural weapons. It takes a while for women to adjust to hurting anyone. We're nurturers by birth.



For the record, I don't just teach "martial arts" stuff. I teach stuff that works in self-defense. Beyond my private training group, I am also on staff with a larger self-defense training company here in Michigan where we teach self-defense to many different target groups. We have specific courses for women. We have accredited college courses for self-defense as well. The end of these classes involves scenario training where the instuctors dress up in FIST padded suits and the students practice what they have learned in as realistic of a way that I have seen available today. 

That said, I know what works in self-defense, and I will say it again: tactics that rely on "pain compliance" or superficial damage are not reliable against an attacker who is really intent on hurting you. Period. I will also say again that If you're using your FINGERS to jam your fingers far into the attackers eyesockets, and you happened to have nails that multiply the force, then great. If your trying to superficially scratch your attacker, your wasting valuable time and energy when you need to be creating more trauma to stop and provide an escape. Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first; and every second wasted increases the danger to the defender.

Now, if it is a semantics thing, and people are thinking "eye gauge" as I describe when they say "use your nails," then fine. I would suggest using a different explaination, though, as someone could mistake what you are trying to say and be thinking "kitty scratches" when that is not what you mean. But at least we probably agree more then we disagree.

If it is not a semantics thing, then I am sorry, but I don't know what to tell you. I know what works and what doesn't, and I stand behind what I say.

I hope you don't take offense to my uncompromising attitude, but this is something I feel very strongly about. If we were just talking about "martial arts" then heck, we could theorize all day long about stuff that may or may not work. But if we are talking self-defense, it HAS to work. I would hate to see someone hurt or killed because of bad information - and there certianly is a lot of it out there. 

Paul


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## Tgace

In a true "fight" you could have bones broken and never even know it until its over. Id never rely on "pain compliance" techniques in self defense situations. Those work in LEO situations where you have to "persuade" "maybe people" into doing what you want. Rarely of practical use in civilian SD.....


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## Makalakumu

Tulisan said:
			
		

> For the record, I don't just teach "martial arts" stuff. I teach stuff that works in self-defense.



Why does there have to be a difference between the two?  In your "art" it sounds like "martial arts stuff" and "self defense" are one in the same.


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## DarrenJew

Why does there have to be a difference between the two? 

Every person has their own reasons to take Martial Arts. Some for Self Defense, some for competition, some just as for the sake of the Art itself.

In self defense, you are expecting some to attack you that is going to be stronger and more aggressive than you. You should consider using things like throwing dirt into the eyes of your assailant (Things, not normally covered in the art itself). Your objective is to get away not necessarily to subdue. But after all is said and done your original Martial Arts techniques will be a combination of many things.

For Competition, depends on the type of competition. But any people that compete will mix several different Art forms to try to give them selves an edge. Often the people will just pick what the feel is useful and discard what does not seem to work for them. Though some competitions may be purely one style that excludes other types of martial arts. Over all the aim is to win, getting away is not an option. 

If youre a purist, then you take the art to perpetuate just the art in itself, without mixing other forms of fighting to preserve its identity. (Note you may take multiple styles of Martial Arts and still preserve each art in their original form.)


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## Gin-Gin

Raisin said:
			
		

> Hey, this post probably belongs to the LLR but how do you stop your nails from bending....... say backwards.  I went to push someone away one time and my thumbnail (quite long at the time) actually bent back halfway down the base of my nail...........man what a killer that was.  I also have a tendency of scratching myself.  Also how do you manage to close your fist??


Hi Raisin,
I'll send you a PM on this.

Gin-Gin


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## Makalakumu

DarrenJew said:
			
		

> Why does there have to be a difference between the two?
> 
> Every person has their own reasons to take Martial Arts. Some for Self Defense, some for competition, some just as for the sake of the Art itself.
> 
> In self defense, you are expecting some to attack you that is going to be stronger and more aggressive than you. You should consider using things like throwing dirt into the eyes of your assailant (Things, not normally covered in the art itself). Your objective is to get away not necessarily to subdue. But after all is said and done your original Martial Arts techniques will be a combination of many things.
> 
> For Competition, depends on the type of competition. But any people that compete will mix several different Art forms to try to give them selves an edge. Often the people will just pick what the feel is useful and discard what does not seem to work for them. Though some competitions may be purely one style that excludes other types of martial arts. Over all the aim is to win, getting away is not an option.
> 
> If youre a purist, then you take the art to perpetuate just the art in itself, without mixing other forms of fighting to preserve its identity. (Note you may take multiple styles of Martial Arts and still preserve each art in their original form.)



The beauty of art is that it can take many forms.  If one wants to express themselves martially from a purely self defense perspective they are not any less of a martial artist in my opinion.  Within the martial arts community there are people who see Art one way and think that it can't be another way.  I disagree with that sentiment whenever I see it.


----------



## FearlessFreep

_In a true "fight" you could have bones broken and never even know it until its over. Id never rely on "pain compliance" techniques in self defense situations. Those work in LEO situations where you have to "persuade" "maybe people" into doing what you want. Rarely of practical use in civilian SD....._

That's why you don't break bones for pain, you break bones to disable.  A guy may not feel a broken knee or broken leg, but he can't walk either.  A guy may not feel a broken arm, but he won't be able to grab you with it, regardless.


----------



## DarrenJew

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The beauty of art is that it can take many forms. If one wants to express themselves martially from a purely self defense perspective they are not any less of a martial artist in my opinion. Within the martial arts community there are people who see Art one way and think that it can't be another way. I disagree with that sentiment whenever I see it.


Certainly not! You are correct, a martial arts taken as a self defense is just as honorable as any other reason for learning a martial art. Also overtime your purpose for learning can change aswell.


----------



## kenpo tiger

I've never had any problem making a fist -- ask my kenpo brothers.

As to keeping your nails from bending backward, white tape usually works well.  Also works if you're concerned about hurting your workout partners.


----------



## Cruentus

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> I've never had any problem making a fist -- ask my kenpo brothers.
> 
> As to keeping your nails from bending backward, white tape usually works well.  Also works if you're concerned about hurting your workout partners.



I believe that someone with long nails can defend themselves; even if they couldn't make a good fist, palm strikes and and other techniques work great. It's just the whole "I'm gonna scratch yea! (meow   )" business that I am questioning.



> Why does there have to be a difference between the two? In your "art" it sounds like "martial arts stuff" and "self defense" are one in the same.



After one gets past the most basic level in my "art" (and this goes for many arts) one is beyond self-defense and may be working on attributes and abilities beyond or outside of what you'll need for defense. An example is in Balintawak, the traditional Filipino art that I focus on for my own training. Balintawak is not for "self-defense," it is for "eskrimadors" or people who wish to become good "stick duelers." Almost the entire art is stick dueling against another stick player. Obviously for self-defense, I most likely won't be "dueling" someone else with a stick. But, like Japanese swordsmanship, stick dueling is wonderful for developing skills and attributes.

What is great about the martial arts is there are a lot of reasons outside of "self-defense" to take them. These are all great. 

We just need to be able to recognize what is viable for self-defense in our arts, because they are not always one in the same...

Paul


----------



## Makalakumu

Tulisan said:
			
		

> After one gets past the most basic level in my "art" (and this goes for many arts) one is beyond self-defense and may be working on attributes and abilities beyond or outside of what you'll need for defense. An example is in Balintawak, the traditional Filipino art that I focus on for my own training. Balintawak is not for "self-defense," it is for "eskrimadors" or people who wish to become good "stick duelers." Almost the entire art is stick dueling against another stick player. Obviously for self-defense, I most likely won't be "dueling" someone else with a stick. But, like Japanese swordsmanship, stick dueling is wonderful for developing skills and attributes.
> 
> What is great about the martial arts is there are a lot of reasons outside of "self-defense" to take them. These are all great.
> 
> We just need to be able to recognize what is viable for self-defense in our arts, because they are not always one in the same...



While I agree that many arts have a certain amount of esoteria or exoteria that is not directly related to self defense, I would have to insist that this is not universal.  

I trained with the Minnesota Kali Group which does Inosanto JKD for three years and, because of my previous training, advanced rather quickly.  Pretty much everything I learned was directly applicable to self defense.

The self defense focus did not make MKG any less artistic.


----------



## kenpo tiger

True.  Most arts incorporate self defense in one form or another, and being able to meld them can only make the martial artist a better one.

The scratching Paul refers to is only suggested as part of getting away.  It isn't 'taught' as self defense, but as part of distraction in order to escape and for possibly identifying the attacker, should he be caught.  Nowhere was it suggested that scratching is a viable tool for _fighting_.
And, even though I have had long nails throughout my martial arts career, I do agree that keeping them short[er] has its advantages, especially in grappling and techniques which require grabbing your opponent in order to bring him to the ground.


----------



## Cruentus

Something to think about, then a question... :asian: 

#1. Something to think about - WHEN to get away:

If someone is prepared to hurt you (and this is especially true for women) they are prepared for you to struggle to try to get away. If they are in the process of physically attacking you, in a real circumstance you are probably not going to have the opportunity to escape; so you have to get their attention off attacking you to create that opportunity. Most will agree on this.

Now here is where it gets hairy, and where my views may differ from some. This is on the issue of "distraction." Some feel that distraction is a viable tactic when someone is in process of attacking you. This covers everything from scratching to slapping to throwing something in their face to yelling and pointing "look over there," and so on. 

I think that distraction is a viable tactic when done at the right TIME. For example, throwing my briefcase at an approaching person who I have reason believe is going to assault me to run is a viable tactic. Or, if someone is approaching me with a knife and saying "give me your money" I can yell, "Take it!" and throw my wallet on the ground while I turn and run. We can name countless examples when done at the right TIME, distraction can be a viable tactic.

Yet, there are times when distraction is NOT a viable tactic. I would assess that this time would be when the attacker is in the process of actually attacking you. If he is in the process of trying to overwhelm and hurt you with kicks and punches, or trying to overpower you and pull you to the ground, you will not be able to distract him from this act at this point. Like pain compliance, a common misconception is that you can distract this guy and he will break his action of hurting or manhandling you to offer that opportunity for escape. 

Time and time again, it has been proven that pain complaince by itself will not stop a determined  threat. We all know that pain is a motivator, yet if pain isn't going to break the action of a determined threat, then in no way can we expect a distraction to break the attackers action. Something more drastic is needed. The best thing that one can do if being attacked is to shift the assailents mindset from attacking you to defending himself. At that moment, his action can be broken enough allowing one to execute an escape.

The most effective way to shift this mindset is to create trauma on the attacker quickly.

Something to think about.

#2. Question: I keep hearing about this idea that you might be able to identify an attacker through DNA from the fingernails of a victim who has successfully defended and escaped. I do see how this might be viable. Yet, I see a lot of potential problems with this as well, making me think that this may be just another one of self-defense urban legends.

So, does anyone (particularly those who keep suggesting the idea) have any actual evidence or statistics of this tactic working?

Paul


----------



## 8253

Anything can be effective in a fight.  If i were to come under attack i will hit them with anything i can to keep from getting hurt.  However i prefer to avoid the fight in the first place, I believe that violence can be averted with words.


----------



## KenpoTex

Paul raised some great points in his last post that I'd like to discuss further.





			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> If someone is prepared to hurt you (and this is especially true for women) they are prepared for you to struggle to try to get away.


 Exactly, and they're probably going to expect most women (especially those with no training) to rely on things like scratching and biting which, while painful, may not (and probably won't dissuade them).  This is where the ability to respond with something that will actually do some damage comes in to play.


			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> I think that distraction is a viable tactic when done at the right TIME.


  I agree, the example given: tossing a wallet if you think that's all they want is a good one.  But as always, don't ASSume that it will be enough.





			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> Yet, there are times when distraction is NOT a viable tactic. I would assess that this time would be when the attacker is in the process of actually attacking you. If he is in the process of trying to overwhelm and hurt you with kicks and punches, or trying to overpower you and pull you to the ground, you will not be able to distract him from this act at this point.





			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> Time and time again, it has been proven that pain complaince by itself will not stop a determined  threat.
> ...yet if pain isn't going to break the action of a determined threat, then in no way can we expect a distraction to break the attackers action. Something more drastic is needed.
> 
> The most effective way to shift this mindset is to create trauma on the attacker quickly.


  I think this ties in with the whole "Stun 'n' Run" concept which basically says "hit 'em in the nose (distract) and run" or something to that effect.  This can be a good tactic sometimes but on the other hand, someone who has selected you as prey for a violent crime (robbery, assault, rape or whatever) is probably not adverse to using violence to achieve their goal.  As a result, if you don't hit 'em like you mean it, you may just piss them off (and strengthen their determination to do all manner of nasty stuff to you).  So you slap/claw/kick them and take off running you may get a bullet in the back for your trouble.  For that matter, how do you know you can outrun them anyway?  Then there's the whole issue of attackers that are on some sort of drug that raises their pain threshold.  
  I realize that I'm getting a little off topic but I have issues with the whole distraction/stun philosophy regardless of whether people take this view out of some desire to be nonviolent and/or minimize the damage to the scumbag that's attacking them (a mindset I neither understand nor encourage); or from a fear of legal repercussions in the aftermath (somthing that is important, but not so much so as surviving).  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should use excessive force or try to play Rambo just to keep your ego intact when you could get away, just that I would prefer to err on the side of caution.  Instead of "Stun/distract and Run," how about "K.O. and walk away."

Okay, I'll shut up and stop rambling now...


----------



## Tgace

The KO aint all that easy or assured. Running isnt so much an "outrun the attacker" issue as it is "the plan didnt work, shes raising the alarm I better beat it" thing. Rarely is a target of opportunity attacker going to persue you if you manage to get a few running steps on him. The plan is to overwhelm immediately.....


----------



## KenpoTex

Tgace said:
			
		

> The KO aint all that easy or assured. Running isnt so much an "outrun the attacker" issue as it is "the plan didnt work, shes raising the alarm I better beat it" thing. Rarely is a target of opportunity attacker going to persue you if you manage to get a few running steps on him.


Good points.  When I said KO, I didn't necessarily mean it literally.  What I meant was, do something that's going to either impair their ability to continue the assault, or cause them some real pain e.g. 2" of your finger in their eye, a hard strike to the throat, etc.  
  As far as running away, you make a good point but I submit that it's probably easier to get those "few running steps" if you've done some damage.


> The plan is to overwhelm immediately.....


 That works both ways.


----------



## Tgace

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Good points. When I said KO, I didn't necessarily mean it literally. What I meant was, do something that's going to either impair their ability to continue the assault, or cause them some real pain e.g. 2" of your finger in their eye, a hard strike to the throat, etc.
> As far as running away, you make a good point but I submit that it's probably easier to get those "few running steps" if you've done some damage.
> That works both ways.


Absolutely. If the guy is within grabbing range you will pretty much have to hit him with something to make your escape.


----------



## masherdong

Hey, in a street fight, anything goes.  Use nails, teeth, anything you can use, use it!  Street fighting has no rules.  Just do what you got to do.


----------



## Flamebearer

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> When we teach _Women's Self Defense_ we recommend using your nails or keys held between your fingers to rake across your attackers face (eyes). This way if he is caught, the authorities can match up the distance between keys held between your fingers to the marks left on the attacker. Also your nails or keys will contain your attacker's DNA...so you shouldn't wash them without going to the police to give a sample first.


I believe that when police find a raped body they scrape under the nails to see if there is any of the attacker's DNA/skin cells.

Nails applied to nerve points do wonders.:ultracool 

-Flamebearer


----------



## Tgace

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> I believe that when police find a raped body they scrape under the nails to see if there is any of the attacker's DNA/skin cells.


Do you see the problem part of that?


----------



## FearlessFreep

_Hey, in a street fight, anything goes. Use nails, teeth, anything you can use, use it! Street fighting has no rules. Just do what you got to do._

It matters in how you prepare, though.  I wouldn't use nails because I keep them short to get better punches.  If I preferred nails over punches, I woud grow my nails and not punch.

I think 'anything goes' but I think you need to consider ahead of time what tactics you are likely to use and prepare accordingly; loose pants and light footwear if you favor kicking; that kinda thing.


----------



## 47MartialMan

I can state that Tulisan had "nailed" it.However, many females in our self defense classes are not required to cut their nails. Their passion for this beautification.

We have taught them that they need not sacrafice their nails to make a fist. We have a alternate way for them to do this and we have them test it the heavy bags, mohk yahn Jjng, and the makiwara.

More than one time in time, a student had actually use these "special fists" in a defense situation.

However, all is fair in love and war. Use something other than your hands/nails.


----------



## Cruentus

Tgace said:
			
		

> Do you see the problem part of that?



:rofl: dude..that was hilarious...


----------



## FearlessFreep

_We have a alternate way for them to do this and we have them test it the heavy bags, mohk yahn Jjng, and the makiwara._

I'd be interested in that; I prefer longer nails on my right hand for musical playing,but have sacrificed them for tight fists


----------



## KenpoTex

Tgace said:
			
		

> Do you see the problem part of that?


:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


----------



## Tgace

Tgace said:
			
		

> Do you see the problem part of that?


I wasnt meaning to be TOO flippant 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





, but I would say that more dead bodies are found with the BG's skin under their nails than are found with the BG's blood on their knuckles, elbows, knees, pocket knives, etc.....catch my meaning?


----------



## Cruentus

Tgace said:
			
		

> catch my meaning?



Absolutely...point well made!


----------



## 47MartialMan

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _We have a alternate way for them to do this and we have them test it the heavy bags, mohk yahn Jjng, and the makiwara._
> 
> I'd be interested in that; I prefer longer nails on my right hand for musical playing,but have sacrificed them for tight fists


It is not as easy as simply to have the hand become somewhat spherical or ovoid. The hard practice, is getting the mind to instruct the hand to do it naturally per opposition that before.

From past observations, females appear to easily adapt to it than males. Perhaps the males are "set" by the other way. 

As soon as I get my camcorder hooked to 'putor, I will mpeg it for you.


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I am going to express a difference of opinion here, so please don't take offense.
> 
> If you want to "win" on the street, I don't suggest doing things that will create only superficial damage or a little pain. Scratching the nails or raking with a key would fall into this category.
> 
> Most likely if someone has the nuts to attack you, they think that they'll win. They may have size, strength, weapons, numbers, sheer aggressiveness, or any number of things in their favor. Superficial damage or any technique reliant only on "pain complaince" is just not enough to stop someone geared up to hurt you.
> 
> Who wins the fight is who brings the most, first. In other words, you need to create as much trauma as quickly as possible to stop the threat enough to allow you to escape.
> 
> Eye gauges are great for creating trauma, but a simple claw or thumb gauge (nails or not) with intent to severely damage is enough to do the trick, and is more efficient and effective then trying to scratch with nails or keys.
> 
> Paul


Hey Paul, 

No offense taken, I somehow missed this thread, and thoughts are always welcome. I mostly agree with all of your points, and many others who have posted. I honestly don't know if the DNA thing is an urban legend or not. I'd also be interested in seeing statistically how successfully it has been in catching attackers, but collecting DNA is not the primary objective in what we teach. 

We do teach woman to claw or rake across a man's face _and eyes_, and DNA is a byproduct of that action - a bonus in my opinion. I agree that clawing or raking alone is not going to stop a violent attacker though. We teach woman to use _their _nails (I agree with Tess that artificial nails can be a hindrance because they are extra painful when they break off) or keys _in conjunction _with striking at least three other places, because an attacker can not hold three things that hurt, and once an attacker is preoccupied with their pain an opportunity to run may present itself and should be taken. I certainly wouldn't wait around or wonder if he will catch me. I believe that if he wants to shoot me he will, but maybe after a rape or beating. Personally, shoot me running! 

In terms of nails, here's one application we teach. We teach woman to use their nails to claw as a follow through move to a palm strike down onto the bride of an attacker's nose. The claw rakes down the face digging into the eyes and continues down the face as you complete the entire move with follow up strikes. 

One thing to consider, having keys in hand in the readied position reminds a person to think about his/her surroundings and may increase overall awareness when alone in a parking lot. The car key is set in the proper position to open the door - getting you into your car faster, while the others are held out with the ribbed edges up to surprise an attacker. If it gets a person thinking, to me it's a good thing. 

MJ


----------



## 47MartialMan

_One thing to consider, having keys in hand in the readied position reminds a person to think about his/her surroundings and may increase overall awareness when alone in a parking lot. The car key is set in the proper position to open the door - getting you into your car faster, while the others are held out with the ribbed edges up to surprise an attacker. If it gets a person thinking, to me it's a good thing. 
_Or "hand-on-gun"


----------



## mj-hi-yah

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Or "hand-on-gun"


Perhaps, but while the keys are admittedly already a stretch, that would make a good topic for a new discussion. :asian:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

That would be bridge of an attacker's nose LOL no hitting the brides!


----------



## 47MartialMan

Back to the nails..from my observations, many female students that have nails and try to punch like a male, tend to have these nails cut/dig into their palms. Worse, cuts happen upon impact. Why punch a heavy bag or such with gloves when one has to actually "feel' what is happening in the action? (I am not talking about repetitious practices/drills)


----------



## Cruentus

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Hey Paul,
> 
> No offense taken, I somehow missed this thread, and thoughts are always welcome. I mostly agree with all of your points, and many others who have posted. I honestly don't know if the DNA thing is an urban legend or not. I'd also be interested in seeing statistically how successfully it has been in catching attackers, but collecting DNA is not the primary objective in what we teach.
> 
> We do teach woman to claw or rake across a man's face _and eyes_, and DNA is a byproduct of that action - a bonus in my opinion. I agree that clawing or raking alone is not going to stop a violent attacker though. We teach woman to use _their _nails (I agree with Tess that artificial nails can be a hindrance because they are extra painful when they break off) or keys _in conjunction _with striking at least three other places, because an attacker can not hold three things that hurt, and once an attacker is preoccupied with their pain an opportunity to run may present itself and should be taken. I certainly wouldn't wait around or wonder if he will catch me. I believe that if he wants to shoot me he will, but maybe after a rape or beating. Personally, shoot me running!
> 
> In terms of nails, here's one application we teach. We teach woman to use their nails to claw as a follow through move to a palm strike down onto the bride of an attacker's nose. The claw rakes down the face digging into the eyes and continues down the face as you complete the entire move with follow up strikes.
> 
> One thing to consider, having keys in hand in the readied position reminds a person to think about his/her surroundings and may increase overall awareness when alone in a parking lot. The car key is set in the proper position to open the door - getting you into your car faster, while the others are held out with the ribbed edges up to surprise an attacker. If it gets a person thinking, to me it's a good thing.
> 
> MJ



A lot of the disagreements in this thread I think might be due to semantics. Where I would consider a finger or thumb strike or gauge to the eye, others might consider that "using your nails." When I think of using nails, I am thinking of shallow "cat" scratches, and little flicks to the eye. These can be fast, but I don't feel that they create enough trauma. If you have time to flick someone in the eye, then you have time to jam your fingers or thumb into the eye, which will have a more drastic effect. For womens self-defense, the woman needs to have as much of a drastic effect as possible with each strike because most likely it will take more strikes for the woman to stop a larger male attacker, and any time wasted could cost a life. Anyways, I think that a lot of people who are saying to "use nails" are meaning it more in the context of creating Trauma with finger gauges as I explained rather then the other way.  

I like that you guys aren't stopping at one strike, though. I think I also like what you explained as a palm strike followed by a face grab where if someone had nails, they could aid in the damage of that technique? If I have it right, I like that one too.

Also, about the DNA thing. I have heard that in this thread more then once, but it doesn't seem right to me. The idea that your going to get the DNA from under the nails after an attack seems to only apply if your a dead body lying there when the cops find you. If you manage to fight your way to escape, and you have DNA under your nails, through the process of getting to safety and getting to a police station and having material from your nails scraped to go to a lab, I am thinking that chances are high that the DNA will be contaminated. Forensics can get DNA from a body because it hasn't been moving around and contaminating the evidence. Furthermore, if the DNA manages to remain uncontaminated, it really does nothing to aid in the capture of the criminal. There is no database or way to track someone down with DNA. It would help in getting a conviction, however, if the assailent was actually caught. So even if it is possible, I am thinking that the focus should be getting safety and calling the authorities; they will sort it out and decide if it is possible to extract DNA from the finger nails.

I am not a forensics expert, but neither is anyone else who has posted here so far. So I could be wrong, but I am not putting any wieight into the DNA thing until I know for sure.

Paul


----------



## 47MartialMan

But how effective, per strength, are the human nails? They seem to become more brittle the longer they grow. (Maybe not toe-nails...yuk)


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Paul first this is a good discussion :asian: , and an important one. I think you are right about the semantics...I was thinking _scratch their eyes out_ LOL but _*literally*,_ really I agree - create damage and I mean this for all woman but we gear this toward woman who have not had the advantage of Martial Arts training on an ongoing basis. Some woman are not interested in ongoing training so we try to give them as much as we can in a non-complicated way so they can practice and hopefully remember it.



			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> I like that you guys aren't stopping at one strike, though. I think I also like what you explained as a palm strike followed by a face grab where if someone had nails, they could aid in the damage of that technique? If I have it right, I like that one too.


Yes basically that's the idea...(in Kenpo we refer to it as _economy of motion)* -* _you are already moving your hand in that direction so you then take advantage of the opportunity to combine another attack to the first movement, the second movement takes advantage of the directional movement of the first strike in this case using the same hand but changing weapons. So here we combine the heel palm strike with a raking claw - both moving in a downward direction. For woman with their own nails (or men for that matter) the nails dig or gouge  into the eyes as you rake down. 

Again, as far as the DNA I'd really like to hear more as well, maybe someone on the board with experience in law enforcement can speak to that.:asian: 

MJ


----------



## Tgace

If you survive, if the attacker was unknown and the attack particularly savage and/or an attempted murder, rape or perhaps they think you were attacked by a serial offender etc. Yeah they could try to take nail scrapings. If it was a simple mugging, or something like that then probably not.


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Tgace said:
			
		

> If you survive, if the attacker was unknown and the attack particularly savage and/or an attempted murder, rape or perhaps they think you were attacked by a serial offender etc. Yeah they could try to take nail scrapings. If it was a simple mugging, or something like that then probably not.


Tgace thanks for sharing your respected perspective on this. :asian:


----------



## Tgace

Its a lot like latent prints (fingerprints). People want CSI to swoop down and process their car when their stereo system gets stolen. It just isnt going to happen (unless there has been a string of such crimes in the area). If somebody broke into your home while you were asleep then yeah, that crime is going to get some more attention. Things like solvability factors, severity of the crime, specific suspects involved, frequency of the offense, etc. all come into account.


----------



## Suntail

I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep.  If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed.  Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality.  If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Suntail said:
			
		

> I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep. If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed. Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality. If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.


Not stupid...I had seen this actually work. A guy actually got punch in the mouth so bad.......that blood splirted on two other people nearby. I do not know if people were afraid of the bodily fluid or the spectacle of it.


----------



## KenpoTex

Suntail said:
			
		

> I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep.  If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. *If you're outnumbered make them bleed.  Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality.*  If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.


Not stupid at all.  If I'm faced with multiple attackers my strategy (if running like hell is not an option) would be to pick one, go preemptive, and mess him up so bad that the others won't want any.


----------



## Simon Curran

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Not stupid at all. If I'm faced with multiple attackers my strategy (if running like hell is not an option) would be to pick one, go preemptive, and mess him up so bad that the others won't want any.


Ditto, I remember my uncle telling me as a kid (he used to get into a lot of scrapes) to go for the biggest one and do him some damage, then the others are more likely to lose their appetite...


----------



## Fightback2

Suntail said:
			
		

> I feel kind of stupid saying this, but draw as much blood as you can, without getting yourself in to deep. If you have to use nails, do it. (I prefer tearing the ear. It bleeds well and most people aren't pain resistant to it.) Bleeding may make them think they can lose. If you're outnumbered make them bleed. Seeing an ally bleed badly brakes the mob mentality. If you can get that blood to splatter onto other people, all the better.


Blood spatter is great in movies but I don't think this is the track to take in real life.  A great deal of pain can be caused without arterial spray.  Consider the problems you have with the people who are the "splatterees".  Also, without being paranoid, keep in mind that contact with someone else's blood may also get you in contact with some pretty nasty diseases.


----------



## FearlessFreep

_Also, without being paranoid, keep in mind that contact with someone else's blood may also get you in contact with some pretty nasty diseases._

Our instructor recommends not punching to the mouth because of the risk of cutting your own hand and all the nastiness in the human mouth at the same time


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## 47MartialMan

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _Also, without being paranoid, keep in mind that contact with someone else's blood may also get you in contact with some pretty nasty diseases._
> 
> Our instructor recommends not punching to the mouth because of the risk of cutting your own hand and all the nastiness in the human mouth at the same time


Not the mouth per dentures, but the upper most or lowest, part of the lips,


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## KenpoTex

If you want to create pain and draw blood hit the guy with a palm-strike to the nose.  Most of you are probably familiar with the common effects of a blow to the nose, for example, your eyes tear, it hurts like a sonofaB****, and you bleed like a stuck pig.  Another benefit is that palm strikes to the face or chin tend to "off-balance" someone (where the head goes, the body follows).  

Not a "high pay-off" strike in the sense that it's going to disable someone, I really see this type of thing as a response to an aggressive idiot as opposed to a real criminal-assault,  but it's not pleasant and may buy you time to get gone.


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## Dead Angel

I use my nails in streetfights, mixed with my WW2 close combat moves.
I keep my nails in a medium to long dagger shape, they look nice & deadly, My nails are naturally solid so They dont break easily... I'll usually send claws or jabbing their Vitals, like throat or solar plexus with my nails


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## KenpoTex

Holy necro-post Batman!


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## Guardian

Yes, whatever it takes in my view.


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## sgtmac_46

Kane said:


> Many describe using nails in a street fight the woman's way of fighting. However, does that mean it won't work? Would you use your nails in a street fight? Usually if you use your nails to strike, you might be able to cut your attacker. However you might break a nail in the process which can be somewhat painful as well.
> 
> I think I would use mine in grappling. Every grip I make I would use my nails and sink it into whatever move (armbar, choke, ect.) I am doing. I don't think I would use it strike, because breaking a nail might not be the wisest (well that is if your life is not at stake, then it is maybe okay).
> 
> Also does anyone in hear sharpen their nails just for self-defense? Sound strange to me, but it might no be a bad idea.



I once saw a man ram another man's head in to a wall with a nail sticking out of it......seemed pretty darned effective to me.......oh you mean 'finger' nails......I guess as long as you're using it to punch through his eye it might be effective.


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## Elodia

I saw this online and I wanted to say something (just made an account to say this)

When I used to be in kajekembo(forgot how to spell it lmao sorry) I had to fight this guy to move on with my belts. I punched to giy so hard my nail ripped off and ripped of half of my nail. I was either so in the moment or so I don't give a **** I just kept go fighting, kicking him off of me (he was on top) and using my other hand to win. I was later publicly congratulated for still going after that.  I cried, to be honest and so did the other girl, but we were both given a round of applause.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I read the title and assumed this was about metal nails, like the screwlike stuff, not the cuticle stuff. Was disappointed by the actual topic


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## oftheherd1

kempodisciple said:


> I read the title and assumed this was about metal nails, like the screwlike stuff, not the cuticle stuff. Was disappointed by the actual topic



A screw-like nail?

This is an ancient thread, but since it is back up, in the Hapkido I learned, we did have some (one or two that I can recall) defenses where we raked an attackers eyes.  Not ones to try to set up, but just if an opportunity presented itself by an attacker.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

oftheherd1 said:


> A screw-like nail?
> 
> This is an ancient thread, but since it is back up, in the Hapkido I learned, we did have some (one or two that I can recall) defenses where we raked an attackers eyes.  Not ones to try to set up, but just if an opportunity presented itself by an attacker.


Easiest way in my sleep-deprived mind to differentiate what type of nail i meant.


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## drop bear

I can cut a guys face to ribbons with elbows. I mean if I really wanted to disfigure a guy in a fight I would probably choose a better method than nails.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


> I can cut a guys face to ribbons with elbows. I mean if I really wanted to disfigure a guy in a fight I would probably choose a better method than nails.


Very true. Back when I would condition my elbows, I could literally cut a curtain with them. Pretty sure if I ever tried that with a nail, it would not work, might break my nail though. You choose your target for each weapon and all that, but I can't think of a situation where a nail is my best choice of defense.


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## oftheherd1

kempodisciple said:


> Very true. Back when I would condition my elbows, I could literally cut a curtain with them. Pretty sure if I ever tried that with a nail, it would not work, might break my nail though. You choose your target for each weapon and all that, *but I can't think of a situation where a nail is my best choice of defense.*



A bear hug from the front without your arms pinned.  One arm behind the attacker's back for control of the attacker, the other striking up under the chin, depending on the situation you might not wish to try to break the neck, but when applying the strike (or strong push up and back) with an open hand, the heel of the palm under the chin, and the fingers will just naturally reach up and over the eyes, allowing a rake.  Fight should be over.


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## jobo

oftheherd1 said:


> A bear hug from the front without your arms pinned.  One arm behind the attacker's back for control of the attacker, the other striking up under the chin, depending on the situation you might not wish to try to break the neck, but when applying the strike (or strong push up and back) with an open hand, the heel of the palm under the chin, and the fingers will just naturally reach up and over the eyes, allowing a rake.  Fight should be over.


 do you think a bear hug from the front is a common mode of attack? I've never seen such in all my years ! and I don't see how your going to do an upward strike from that position ?


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## Danny T

jobo said:


> do you think a bear hug from the front is a common mode of attack? I've never seen such in all my years ! and I don't see how your going to do an upward strike from that position ?


As an immediate first attack I agree however, grappling happens. Double underhooks, body locks happen and are variations of the bear hug.


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## punisher73

I know that the masters of Sinanju train and condition their fingernails so that they can pierce the skull with them.


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## drop bear

Danny T said:


> As an immediate first attack I agree however, grappling happens. Double underhooks, body locks happen and are variations of the bear hug.



Yes that attack happens.





No those suggested defenses probably won't work.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

oftheherd1 said:


> A bear hug from the front without your arms pinned.  One arm behind the attacker's back for control of the attacker, the other striking up under the chin, depending on the situation you might not wish to try to break the neck, but when applying the strike (or strong push up and back) with an open hand, the heel of the palm under the chin, and the fingers will just naturally reach up and over the eyes, allowing a rake.  Fight should be over.


If im not wanting to put in the force to tisk breaking the neck, im probably not trying to blind the person either. I'd rather try to use my hands to control the person in a mpre effectice manner than hoping i reach into the eyes that i cant see without missing and him realizing  what im doing.


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## Buka

Restomp the groin.


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## wab25

I look at this from the other side. I have been cut by people's nails while rolling and sparring. A few have been pretty deep. But, every time it happens it goes like: Hey, where is all this blood coming from??? Crap, someone cut my with his nail.... It has never happened like an inadvertent eye poke, were I suddenly jump, cover up and move away, knowing exactly when it happened. Even the cuts that are deep, bleed a ton and sting like the dickens for days... I never knew exactly when the cut happened, always we saw the blood and had to look for the source. I can only imagine that on the street, it would be even harder to feel when you were cut by a nail.

What have I learned? *CUT YOUR NAILS before rolling or sparring!!!* But, I wouldn't bet on those nails stopping an attacker. I would rather not lose the sparring / rolling time due to cuts, as what you learn sparring and rolling will help you much more than your nails.


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## oftheherd1

drop bear said:


> Yes that attack happens.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No those suggested defenses probably won't work.



It would be more difficult to use that defense but you probably wouldn't want to.  I would just go right for the eyes.  Fingernails optional.


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## drop bear

oftheherd1 said:


> It would be more difficult to use that defense but you probably wouldn't want to.  I would just go right for the eyes.  Fingernails optional.



The issue is you have to act in a manner that stops the attack.

Not just enrage a guy who is now on top of you.


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## marques

drop bear said:


> The issue is you have to act in a manner that stops the attack.
> 
> Not just enrage a guy who is now on top of you.


Agree. What does not stop me, only makes me more violent or more determined (in self defence, sport is completely a different story). I suppose at this level we are all about the same.

There are many things that ‘work’ in training, but then in practice only make force level escalate...


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## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> A screw-like nail?
> 
> This is an ancient thread, but since it is back up, in the Hapkido I learned, we did have some (one or two that I can recall) defenses where we raked an attackers eyes.  Not ones to try to set up, but just if an opportunity presented itself by an attacker.


My nails are always short enough this is basically a poorly-executed eye massage.


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## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> do you think a bear hug from the front is a common mode of attack? I've never seen such in all my years ! and I don't see how your going to do an upward strike from that position ?


Yeah, pretty unusual, except where someone's going for a slam. I can only think of one time I've seen someone go for one, and that was back in grade school.


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## drop bear

marques said:


> Agree. What does not stop me, only makes me more violent or more determined (in self defence, sport is completely a different story). I suppose at this level we are all about the same.
> 
> There are many things that ‘work’ in training, but then in practice only make force level escalate...



There are mechanical escapes.

I think any street tactics should follow the same principles.

In the case of the eye gouge it is going to make you want to lift your elbows which is not good when you are in that position.

I have been eye gouged in fights and they are actually pretty slow to work. Especially combined with gritting your teeth, squeezing your eyes shut and wriggling your head around.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> There are mechanical escapes.
> 
> I think any street tactics should follow the same principles.
> 
> In the case of the eye gouge it is going to make you want to lift your elbows which is not good when you are in that position.
> 
> I have been eye gouged in fights and they are actually pretty slow to work. Especially combined with gritting your teeth, squeezing your eyes shut and wriggling your head around.


Agreed. I've gone back through many of the defenses I was taught over the years, and divided them into 3 piles. Some will work, and reliably so. Some are either targets of odd opportunity or desperation moves. Some are unlikely to be useful, at all. Then I go back and add in any mechanical/structural responses to the first pile and that's what I teach. The second pile is interesting for side mentions and odd "what-if" problem solving (often add-ons to the stuff I teach regularly). The third pile never makes it back on the mats.


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## oftheherd1

drop bear said:


> The issue is you have to act in a manner that stops the attack.
> 
> Not just enrage a guy who is now on top of you.



I don't have an argument with that.  In fact I agree.  

In the Hapkido I studied, we were taught to practice techniques often until they were done instinctively, then keep practicing them.  At some point in such an attack I can pretty well see I am being attacked and how I can defend.  I would then defend quickly.


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## oftheherd1

gpseymour said:


> My nails are always short enough this is basically a poorly-executed eye massage.



Understood.  But even so it can be expected that you might abrade the surface of the eyes causing enough pain to stop or reduce the flow of the attack.


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## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> The issue is you have to act in a manner that stops the attack.
> 
> Not just enrage a guy who is now on top of you.



This is true enough. But poking someone in the eye is much like kicking a guy in the wedding tackle. The effectiveness varies wildly. As with a smack in the fun sack, the response to a poke in the eye is as much psychological as physiological. Yes, both hurt, but neither is generally instantly debilitating. But in both cases, we have an almost instinctive panic reaction and many will respond as if the injury is much worse than it really is.
This being true, the most effective eye poke might very well be one which is telegraphed, trying to intentionally trigger that panic reaction. The Big Flinch.
And it's also worth remembering that neither strike is likely to be super effective against an experienced fighter. Because experienced people know that it just ain't going to be the end of the world.


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## Gerry Seymour

oftheherd1 said:


> Understood.  But even so it can be expected that you might abrade the surface of the eyes causing enough pain to stop or reduce the flow of the attack.


True enough. If my hands are high on his face, I'd probably try to guide a finger to the eye as a bonus. I'm just thinking there are other ways I'd prefer to make use of those hands in a lot of cases.


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## drop bear

Dirty Dog said:


> This is true enough. But poking someone in the eye is much like kicking a guy in the wedding tackle. The effectiveness varies wildly. As with a smack in the fun sack, the response to a poke in the eye is as much psychological as physiological. Yes, both hurt, but neither is generally instantly debilitating. But in both cases, we have an almost instinctive panic reaction and many will respond as if the injury is much worse than it really is.
> This being true, the most effective eye poke might very well be one which is telegraphed, trying to intentionally trigger that panic reaction. The Big Flinch.
> And it's also worth remembering that neither strike is likely to be super effective against an experienced fighter. Because experienced people know that it just ain't going to be the end of the world.



I have no issue with eye poking but I feel it should support the mechanical defense.

So a defence that uses framing or a cross face you could eye gouge and you are basically doing the same thing.

With a bear hug an eye gouge is almost the opposite of the defense.

Where I have been known to throw in a sternum rub defending bear hugs.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> I have no issue with eye poking but I feel it should support the mechanical defense.
> 
> So a defence that uses framing or a cross face you could eye gouge and you are basically doing the same thing.
> 
> With a bear hug an eye gouge is almost the opposite of the defense.
> 
> Where I have been known to throw in a sternum rub defending bear hugs.


That's a better statement of my last post.


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## Leigh Blyth

Straight for the balls!   A true woman's way of fighting.   

It's amazing what a quick flick of the eyes to the groin region can do (in the couple of occasions it's almost come to a fight).


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## Gerry Seymour

Leigh Blyth said:


> Straight for the balls!   A true woman's way of fighting.
> 
> It's amazing what a quick flick of the eyes to the groin region can do (in the couple of occasions it's almost come to a fight).


Um, what?


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## Leigh Blyth

My nails aren't great!


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## Gerry Seymour

Leigh Blyth said:


> My nails aren't great!


So, instead of using your nails, you stare at their groin?


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## Leigh Blyth

Not sure when a quick flick of the eyes became a stare!  

Having been in the position thinking this guy's gonna f-ing kill me,  standing my ground and sending the subconscious message that if he touched me I was gonna castrate him seemed to work.

Never want to be in that situation again though.


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## Gerry Seymour

Leigh Blyth said:


> Not sure when a quick flick of the eyes became a stare!
> 
> Having been in the position thinking this guy's gonna f-ing kill me,  standing my ground and sending the subconscious message that if he touched me I was gonna castrate him seemed to work.
> 
> Never want to be in that situation again though.


I doubt anyone interprets a quick glance at their crotch as a threat of castration without some other communication.


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## KenpoMaster805

Nails is only effective if your a girl or man depending caused u might broke your nails its better to cut in and scratch the person


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I doubt anyone interprets a quick glance at their crotch as a threat of castration without some other communication.



And yet anecdotes as evidence.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> And yet anecdotes as evidence.


What are you on about these days? Were you re-reading some old thread and decided you needed a new argument?


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> What are you on about these days? Were you re-reading some old thread and decided you needed a new argument?



It is good to see you dismissing anecdotal evidence these days. 

Especially if you are working the self defense niche as there is so much of it that is just wrong. 

I will get you working with scientific method next.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> It is good to see you dismissing anecdotal evidence these days.
> 
> Especially if you are working the self defense niche as there is so much of it that is just wrong.
> 
> I will get you working with scientific method next.


Who knows, maybe someday I'll get you to work with consistency in arguments.


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## Christopher Adamchek

The sheer number of comments tells me people are debating this and there is no debate. Finger nails can be effectively used, yes, even at shorter lengths (i did read some comments).


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## Gerry Seymour

Christopher Adamchek said:


> The sheer number of comments tells me people are debating this and there is no debate. Finger nails can be effectively used, yes, even at shorter lengths (i did read some comments).


Short nails (like I keep mine) aren't reliable for doing anything with the actual nail. In fact, that's why they're short - so I don't do inadvertent damage while grappling. So, where you say "nails", I have to translate to "fingertips".


----------

