# Punching without hand wraps?



## BeeBrian

Judo is my target right now, but in the unlikely event that I decide to travel to Brazil and fight in a Vale Tudo match, I would want to punch people with my bare fists.

So is it a good idea to train with a heavy bag without wraps? Perhaps if I do it with extra pre-cautions it'll be alright?

Or is it an absolute no-no?

Thanks in advance.


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## Transk53

BeeBrian said:


> Judo is my target right now, but in the unlikely event that I decide to travel to Brazil and fight in a Vale Tudo match, I would want to punch people with my bare fists.
> 
> So is it a good idea to train with a heavy bag without wraps? Perhaps if I do it with extra pre-cautions it'll be alright?
> 
> Or is it an absolute no-no?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Go to a boxing gym. Speak to an instructor IMHO.


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## Buka

First, you should fly first class. It's the only way to fly to Brazil.

Bare fists, yes, that would be the way to go.

Second, do you know how to wrap your hands? Of course, once they're wrapped, they're no longer bare. That's always been a conundrum.

Extra pre-cautions. Always. Pre-cautions, post-cautions, all-cautions.


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## drop bear

You can just build up to it. I do I minute rounds bare knuckle no problems. But if you are doing the ten or fifteen 3 minute rounds a day that it takes to be fight ready. Eventually you will do damage.


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## drop bear

And just a video picked at random. But i have noticed this as a trend whenever i see anything on bare knuckle boxing.


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## tshadowchaser

never wrapped my hand ever
I  do not fight professionally so I have no need.  I learned how to hit with a bare fist. I trained on heavy bags, makawawa, and on other such things.  You  start light and work up to heavy /hard.
As had been said before if your going to wrap your hands go to a boxing gym or a professional and learn how to do it  correctly


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## Buka

Funny thing about hand wraps, never seen two trainers/fighters who do it exactly the same way.


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## jezr74

I use hand wraps, I use them to help protect all those little bones in my hand that I don't want to strain or break since I have a day job. 

Just Google\you tube how to wrap, plenty of ways to do it. Just try them and use the one that feels right. 

Some people prefer bare hands, others, wraps with 16oz gloves. Everyone will be different and everyone has different types of hands.


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## Tez3

Our fighters who we send out to Fairtex in Thailand come back with a new, to us, way to wrap hands, more thickness across the knuckles, we all tend to do it that way now. I can't stand having the wraps between my fingers so just wrap hands without, others of course do. I can use bags and pads without wraps or gloves, my knuckles after years of doing this are nicely flat lol but it just depends on what we are doing whether I wrap, wear gloves or nothing.


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## Touch Of Death

Bare knuckle fighting requires more accuracy than power. You wrap your hands because you are hitting too hard. Keep your whole hand loose, and just touch them with your first two knuckles.


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## MJS

BeeBrian said:


> Judo is my target right now, but in the unlikely event that I decide to travel to Brazil and fight in a Vale Tudo match, I would want to punch people with my bare fists.
> 
> So is it a good idea to train with a heavy bag without wraps? Perhaps if I do it with extra pre-cautions it'll be alright?
> 
> Or is it an absolute no-no?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



I do both.  Sometimes I'll go bare knuckle, and other times, I'll wear bag gloves.  I do feel it is important to learn how to properly hit w/o anything on your hand, as odds are, if you're defending yourself, you're not going to have anything on your hands.


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## FriedRice

BeeBrian said:


> Judo is my target right now, but in the unlikely event that I decide to travel to Brazil and fight in a Vale Tudo match, I would want to punch people with my bare fists.
> 
> So is it a good idea to train with a heavy bag without wraps? Perhaps if I do it with extra pre-cautions it'll be alright?
> 
> Or is it an absolute no-no?
> 
> Thanks in advance.




Are you going to mostly rely on your Judo for this Vale Tudo fight? Because that's damn ballsy if you're going to do this and have to ask a question about handwraps, which sounds like you're just starting on your striking. I'm not trying to be a dick, but damn, the Brazilians don't mess around. The main purpose for handwraps is mostly to protect the wrists when you make  mistakes and it will somewhat protect from   sprained wrists, especially on the heavy bag. Boxing gloves protects the knuckles mostly, especially skin from peeling off. Fighters train with protection in order to exert full power w/less chances of injuries, allowing continuous training and limiting down time due to injuries. Neither the little bones in the fingers nor the skin on your knuckles are not going to get conditioned fast enough, nor nearly at the same rate of your striking power that will improve significantly through technique, over time. I've yet to see anyone doing chopsocky bare hands all the time with a set of fully armored, calloused knuckles that won't bleed all over the punching bag. Maybe they just don't punch very hard, especially the ladies.  There are 6 long bags at this one LA Fitness that I go to, and bare knuckles chopsockiers get on them once in a while and they don't punch anywhere nearly as hard as the Boxers w/gloves on. And we usually go 10+ rounds to their 1-3 rounds (usually) because I know their hands are hurting. Like Tyson breaks his hands in streetfights, but he punches like a tank.


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## Touch Of Death

Tyson is a perfect example of what you should never do on the street, but always do in the ring. LOL


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## Andrew Green

Wrap your hands if you're doing any significant amount of work on a bag.  It probably won't hurt while you do it, but it's going to build up.  Why risk stress injuries for no reason.

Apart from that, if you really want to fight find a amateur MMA event near you and do that.  The bare knuckle vale todo stuff is just asking for problems.  

Combat sports are dangerous enough without ignoring the safety precautions that are in place for good reason.  Wrap your hands, train with someone that knows what they are doing and compete in a legitimate and sanctioned event with properly trained officials, medicals and emergency teams on stand by.


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## Transk53

FriedRice said:


> Are you going to mostly rely on your Judo for this Vale Tudo fight? Because that's damn ballsy if you're going to do this and have to ask a question about handwraps, which sounds like you're just starting on your striking. I'm not trying to be a dick, but damn, the Brazilians don't mess around. The main purpose for handwraps is mostly to protect the wrists when you make  mistakes and it will somewhat protect from   sprained wrists, especially on the heavy bag. Boxing gloves protects the knuckles mostly, especially skin from peeling off. Fighters train with protection in order to exert full power w/less chances of injuries, allowing continuous training and limiting down time due to injuries. Neither the little bones in the fingers nor the skin on your knuckles are not going to get conditioned fast enough, nor nearly at the same rate of your striking power that will improve significantly through technique, over time. I've yet to see anyone doing chopsocky bare hands all the time with a set of fully armored, calloused knuckles that won't bleed all over the punching bag. Maybe they just don't punch very hard, especially the ladies.  There are 6 long bags at this one LA Fitness that I go to, and bare knuckles chopsockiers get on them once in a while and they don't punch anywhere nearly as hard as the Boxers w/gloves on. And we usually go 10+ rounds to their 1-3 rounds (usually) because I know their hands are hurting. Like Tyson breaks his hands in streetfights, but he punches like a tank.



Seen plenty of people punch a heavy bag longer than what you stipulate.


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## Mephisto

Touch Of Death said:


> Tyson is a perfect example of what you should never do on the street, but always do in the ring. LOL


Yeah I wouldn't recommend training hard and developing enormous amounts of power and impeccable technique to help in a street fight, such a bad idea. Anyone could beat Tyson in the street.


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## Mephisto

To the OP, Vale Tudo's a great idea, if you're new to judo it's something you should really be worried about. I also recommend the underground kumite, I think it's in Indonesia.


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## Touch Of Death

Mephisto said:


> Yeah I wouldn't recommend training hard and developing enormous amounts of power and impeccable technique to help in a street fight, such a bad idea. Anyone could beat Tyson in the street.


No, funny guy, he beats himself. As you will, if you try that crap on the street.


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## Mephisto

Touch Of Death said:


> No, funny guy, he beats himself. As you will, if you try that crap on the street.


I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. But it sound ridiculous.


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## Touch Of Death

Mephisto said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. But it sound ridiculous.


It will to the doctor when you tell the doctor how you broke your hand, yes.


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## Mephisto

Touch Of Death said:


> It will to the doctor when you tell the doctor how you broke your hand, yes.


Well if I break my hand in the process of demlishing a guy trying to hurt me or my family than I suppose it's a fair trade. A broken hand is certainly possible defending yourself with a punch but I don't see what that has to do with mike Tyson specifically, many systems train punches.


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## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. But it sound ridiculous.



The Tyson thing yes, but I believe TOD is referring to the streets as being a place where rules are somewhat different. No one will being taken to the ground with pretty moves. That means a very harsh lesson in who you are dealing with. Well at least that what I think he means


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## Touch Of Death

Mephisto said:


> Well if I break my hand in the process of demlishing a guy trying to hurt me or my family than I suppose it's a fair trade. A broken hand is certainly possible defending yourself with a punch but I don't see what that has to do with mike Tyson specifically, many systems train punches.


There are better ways to skin the cat, than breaking your hands on that first guy, because, now, his buddy sees you holding your hand. Tyson broke his hand, in his last famous street fight; so, it would follow he isn't a smart street fighter.


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## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> Well if I break my hand in the process of demlishing a guy trying to hurt me or my family than I suppose it's a fair trade. A broken hand is certainly possible defending yourself with a punch but I don't see what that has to do with mike Tyson specifically, many systems train punches.



The bones in the hand and whether conditioned otherwise. Tyson has so much power with a glove. Different bare fisted. Different loads and that.


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## jezr74

If you broke a bone(s) in your hand in a fight, you will likely not know it until the fight is done.


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## Touch Of Death

I can't believe I have to defend not breaking our hands.


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## Mephisto

Touch Of Death said:


> I can't believe I have to defend not breaking our hands.


I can't believe you are using mike Tyson as evidence that you shouldn't throw a punch. Yes there could be more people, I could also draw a gun or blade, or laser beams, after ko-ing the first guy. Next thing you know you'll be bringing up the broken glass and aids needle covered ground should I end up grappling.


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## jezr74

Touch Of Death said:


> I can't believe I have to defend not breaking our hands.



I do agree, if we have endurance pad work I always just use elbows, with light bare knuckle punching, I reckon I get about 20 hard hits over five munites before my wrist or bones on top of the hand start to feel weakened and technique starts to suffer.

I've seen many people break the bones, knuckles etc. in fights to think I'd do it in an encounter, maybe one or two to test the mettle of an opponent and get distance, than it's normally all on, and elbows would be my go to before it hit the floor.

Tyson, is not a good example thou.


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## Touch Of Death

I am all for punching hard on soft targets.


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## Mephisto

jezr74 said:


> I do agree, if we have endurance pad work I always just use elbows, with light bare knuckle punching, I reckon I get about 20 hard hits over five munites before my wrist or bones on top of the hand start to feel weakened and technique starts to suffer.
> 
> I've seen many people break the bones, knuckles etc. in fights to think I'd do it in an encounter, maybe one or two to test the mettle of an opponent and get distance, than it's normally all on, and elbows would be my go to before it hit the floor.
> 
> Tyson, is not a good example thou.


You may have seen people break hands, I can't argue with your personal experience. I've seen a lot of punches thrown and the only broken hands resulted from idiots punching walls. Broken knuckles are a legit concern but look at the volume of arts that include punches, if it were so predetermined that punches lead to broken hands I'd think we'd see much less of them.


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## jezr74

Mephisto said:


> You may have seen people break hands, I can't argue with your personal experience. I've seen a lot of punches thrown and the only broken hands resulted from idiots punching walls. Broken knuckles are a legit concern but look at the volume of arts that include punches, if it were so predetermined that punches lead to broken hands I'd think we'd see much less of them.



Anecdotally, 

I think I've seen it more when there is an experience gap between people fighting, or the intensity/agression.

Not all fights result in breaks I agree, it may be around the amount of intensity. An inexperienced fighter may make mistakes and hit hard parts of an opponent or bad technique going hard at it to compensate for lack of skill. Along with punching walls as a form of intimidation.


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## Transk53

Punching walls in intimidation, no in conditioning. The former is just too stupid. Seen this myself


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## Transk53

Mephisto said:


> You may have seen people break hands, I can't argue with your personal experience. I've seen a lot of punches thrown and the only broken hands resulted from idiots punching walls. Broken knuckles are a legit concern but look at the volume of arts that include punches, if it were so predetermined that punches lead to broken hands I'd think we'd see much less of them.



Agree, how many hand breakers do you see?


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## Mephisto

Transk53 said:


> Agree, how many hand breakers do you see?


Actually happen? A few. In high school I remember more than few hormone fueled teens punching walls. It wasn't during a confrontation like jez described above, usually a kid upset with his parents or girlfriend. I also worked in the ER for a while and saw the occasional "boxer's fracture", usually it was teens punching objects other than people though.


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## drop bear

Touch Of Death said:


> I can't believe I have to defend not breaking our hands.



You are trading one fisk for another on the basis one guy broke his hands.

I mean if we looked at kimbo slice and not mike Tyson. Then punching works fine on the streets.


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## FriedRice

Transk53 said:


> The Tyson thing yes, but I believe TOD is referring to the streets as being a place where rules are somewhat different. No one will being taken to the ground with pretty moves. That means a very harsh lesson in who you are dealing with. Well at least that what I think he means



In general, it's very easy for a decently trained person to take someone who's untrained down. And usually, toughguys in the streets are rarely trained. The big difference is, it's going to hurt the untrained guy a lot more, on the way down into the concrete with a slam than it will at the gym with the cushy mats. We have a raised platform with car tires underneath, then the platform then the super cushy mats, and it still not fun getting thrown. Plus, untrained people wouldn't know how to break fall, so they'll probably land on their head or neck. 

A 1-1.5 year BJJ Blue Belt should be able to hurt someone pretty bad, if not KO them and end the fight, with a simple thrown or even just a double leg takedown with decent air and right into the concrete. Judokas are usually better with the throws.


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## Transk53

FriedRice said:


> In general, it's very easy for a decently trained person to take someone who's untrained down. And usually, toughguys in the streets are rarely trained. The big difference is, it's going to hurt the untrained guy a lot more, on the way down into the concrete with a slam than it will at the gym with the cushy mats. We have a raised platform with car tires underneath, then the platform then the super cushy mats, and it still not fun getting thrown. Plus, untrained people wouldn't know how to break fall, so they'll probably land on their head or neck.
> 
> A 1-1.5 year BJJ Blue Belt should be able to hurt someone pretty bad, if not KO them and end the fight, with a simple thrown or even just a double leg takedown with decent air and right into the concrete. Judokas are usually better with the throws.



Yeah maybe. Perhaps things would be sort of uncomplicated.


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## FriedRice

Touch Of Death said:


> There are better ways to skin the cat, than breaking your hands on that first guy, because, now, his buddy sees you holding your hand. Tyson broke his hand, in his last famous street fight; so, it would follow he isn't a smart street fighter.



Well Tyson punches like a tank. The average person won't be able to punch that hard or hard enough to break their hand in a few punches like he did. But he also has another hand to kill you with. Tyson didn't fight some non-Fighter Martial Artist in the streets, he fought a Pro Boxer with like 15 wins by KO. So Mitch Greene, ain't no average guy in the street and that's probably why Tyson went in full power like that. Some non-fighter, Tyson wouldn't need to use that much power.

And to your comment about Tyson not being a "smart street fighter", well Tyson was a Juvenile Delinquent with THIRTY EIGHT ARRESTS by the age of 13, mostly for "petty crimes & fighting". He was in and out of Juvie, which some speculates that he's been through all the brutality, violence, including getting raped and raping of others, associated with Juvie Detention Centers. And outside of Juvie, he lived in the tough ghetto streets of NYC. So I doubt that what you said about Tyson is even remotely true. He's shown his animalistic side plenty of times during his interviews and proved it wasn't all a show when he not only bit Holyfield once, but twice, taking off a chunk of his ear. If anything, Tyson is this exact, bad to the bone, streetfighter/killer who  most SD gyms romanticizes about when they do their training, but more so, Tyson became a highly trained, weapon/killer and the best in the world at it.  

Lastly, when it comes to being conscious of breaking one's hands, real fighters are always weary of it. Even fighting just amateur MMA, I know the limitations of my hands (and other limbs) to a high degree. With 16oz gloves, we can go up to full power on each other and the bag during training, but even with 7oz MMA sparring gloves, we are very careful to not injure our hands nor break noses, etc. There's no way that Tyson is a dummy about this. But a broken hand wouldn't stop a Fighter, let alone the best Boxer of the world. An MMA fighter would still have the other hand, kicks, knees, elbows, headbutt, etc. And you can still punch with a broken hand, depending on the severity. Tyson certainly can still elbow, bite and even knee & kick. But his other good hand alone can easily kill the some non-Fighter/average Martial Artist, if he wanted to.


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## Transk53

You go careful, but you comment on Tyson? Seems a bit rich


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## FriedRice

Transk53 said:


> You go careful, but you comment on Tyson? Seems a bit rich


 
Can you be more specific? What I wrote about Tyson is documented.


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## Transk53

FriedRice said:


> Can you be more specific? What I wrote about Tyson is documented.



Have you thrown a punch that went beyond skinning. One that taught you the limitations of a unconditioned hand? Just going on the documentation.


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## Touch Of Death

FriedRice said:


> Can you be more specific? What I wrote about Tyson is documented.


Tyson WAS a good fighter. He isn't the greatest, and never was. But I will concede that he is dangerous.


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## Orange Lightning

tshadowchaser said:


> never wrapped my hand ever
> I  do not fight professionally so I have no need.  I learned how to hit with a bare fist. I trained on heavy bags, makawawa, and on other such things.  You  start light and work up to heavy /hard.
> As had been said before if your going to wrap your hands go to a boxing gym or a professional and learn how to do it  correctly


Same here.
I've heard a criticism about hand wraps. Apparently, some boxers and mma  people get so used to hand wraps that they forget about good fist alignment when they get in real altercations, and end up breaking their wrists. I once heard this criticism from Bas Rutten on Joe Rogan's podcast. 
I've never done hand wraps. I own a few pairs of bag gloves, but I never liked them. There is something so be said about the extra training one gets from having your hands slightly weighted though. You feel pretty spry when you take the gloves off. For me though, I prefer to hit the bag without them. It feels harder to do anything that isn't boxing or muay thai. Backfists, methods of blocking, and forget about palms entirely. I've been thinking about picking them back up just for the extra resistance.
I might being talking different if I had a different bag material. It's not vinyl. Outside of learning good fist alignment, I've never had a problem punching the bag as hard as I can.


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## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> I've heard a criticism about hand wraps. Apparently, some boxers and mma people get so used to hand wraps that they *forget about good fist alignment* when they get in real altercations, and end up breaking their wrists. I once heard this criticism from Bas Rutten on Joe Rogan's podcast.



I had that once with a heavy bag. I have to admit that I did start with gloves, but left the wraps. I was told that the gloves would help the body, in this case the hands sorry, start to remember different healing methods. IE slapping the skin a little and the glove rub would help. I like to think that it is not a myth, seems plausible. Eventually though I dispensed with them and went bare handed. One day though I screwed up and hit the bag in anger. Lost the alignment and chipped a bone in my wrist. I hit at a very wide angle, but stepped into the bag so ended up with a weak positioned hand. Quite lucky, but a future bike spill, broke the wrist. Karma I guess


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## Orange Lightning

Transk53 said:


> I had that once with a heavy bag. I have to admit that I did start with gloves, but left the wraps. I was told that the gloves would help the body, in this case the hands sorry, start to remember different healing methods. IE slapping the skin a little and the glove rub would help. I like to think that it is not a myth, seems plausible. Eventually though I dispensed with them and went bare handed. One day though I screwed up and hit the bag in anger. Lost the alignment and chipped a bone in my wrist. I hit at a very wide angle, but stepped into the bag so ended up with a weak positioned hand. Quite lucky, but a future bike spill, broke the wrist. Karma I guess


You chipped a bone in your wrist?! Dam dude. 
I can see how that happened. It's easier to have this problem punching with your front hand while advancing. When I first tried JKD's leading straight against a bag, I felt how much harder it was to keep alignment when advancing, particularly in midstep. I started by modifying it into a sort far reaching hook, just so there wasn't so much chance to put all my body weight into a bad alignment. I got used to it that way.


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## Transk53

Orange Lightning said:


> You chipped a bone in your wrist?! Dam dude.
> I can see how that happened. It's easier to have this problem punching with your front hand while advancing. When I first tried JKD's leading straight against a bag, I felt how much harder it was to keep alignment when advancing, particularly in midstep. I started by modifying it into a sort far reaching hook, just so there wasn't so much chance to put all my body weight into a bad alignment. I got used to it that way.



Yeah but I got away with it really. Losing your temper breaks bones kind of thing. I think a far reaching hook, would be more of a cross hook


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## IcemanSK

I do wrap my hands because of my years of boxing & I have week wrists & a day job that requires a lot of writing.


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## Dirty Dog

It depends what I'm hitting. If I'm hitting something fairly soft, like the wave master, I don't wrap. If I'm hitting a makiwara or a firm bag, then I wrap. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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