# Testing fees?



## Sledgehammer (Sep 11, 2013)

Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?


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## sfs982000 (Sep 11, 2013)

I don't think testing fees are necessarily a scam, I can understand paying for belts, test administer time, etc....  Now I do think some schools go overboard with with their testing fees.  For those that actually own/run schools I would love to hear how you break down testing fees and what the difference is in the break down between color belt and black belt testing fees.


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 11, 2013)

Sledgehammer said:


> Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?



Some schools charge higher tuition in lieu of testing fees. I think a lower tuition with testing fees is better as long as the decision to test is ultimately up to the student. That way you aren't paying for anything you aren't receiving.

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## mvcoburn (Sep 11, 2013)

Testing fees aren't bad, but what makes it difficult to swallow is when everything else is thrown in.  

Example - Parent signs up a child and understands the monthly fee to be $100 per month for unlimited classes.  A week or so later, the instructor approaches the parent and says that their child needs sparring gear which is about $250.  Another couple of weeks go by and the instructor approaches the parent and says that the student is doing great in sparring and recommends that they attend the competition training, which is about another $100 per month (plus the cost of competition uniform and warmups which is required for all students who attend competitions).  Another month goes by and the instructor informs the parent that their child is being recommended for testing, which is $50 and would like to invite them to the "Parents night out" after the test which is $25 dollars to attend.   Yes, it is an investment, but most parents only see the initial month cost and don't understand the rest of what is required. In the end, the first couple of months go from $100 to $500. 

I have known schools (McDojo's) to not inform their parents of up front "hidden" charges.  Some of the schools I have attended charge higher testing fees with each new belt which doesn't make sense when the cost to test a white belt is the same as the cost to test a blue belt.


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## DennisBreene (Sep 11, 2013)

sfs982000 said:


> I don't think testing fees are necessarily a scam, I can understand paying for belts, test administer time, etc....  Now I do think some schools go overboard with with their testing fees.  For those that actually own/run schools I would love to hear how you break down testing fees and what the difference is in the break down between color belt and black belt testing fees.



The reality is that running a school has expenses. I would be interested in what school owners/managers experience for costs and what their return on investment is. Most of the school owners I have known have relied on other income sources, usually their primary job, to permit them to keep the doors open.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 11, 2013)

Sledgehammer said:


> Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?



You asked a simple question with no specific answer.   I first have a question for you. How many businesses have you run? Have you had to consider; Rent, maintenance, cleaning, postage, phone, internet, banking and credit card fees, accounting and legal fees, Electricity, heat and water costs,  Employment costs, advertising,  etc.
Now, tell me how such costs can vary from location to location throughout the country.

So, in a sense expenses need to be covered.  What is "fair" is a relative term.   Does the school owner and instructer deserve to make a fair living? What is your training worth.  Is it more fair for all testing revenue needs to be rolled into a higher monthly tuition for the student who needs 6 months of training for a test versus the student who can test after 3 months? 

Is the school part of a larger enterprise like a community center or YMCA that sets program costs and pays a percentage or fixed amount to the instructor who needs to cover other expene like insurance thru aanother revenue source?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 11, 2013)

mvcoburn said:


> I have known schools (McDojo's) to not inform their parents of up front "hidden" charges.  Some of the schools I have attended charge higher testing fees with each new belt which doesn't make sense when the cost to test a white belt is the same as the cost to test a blue belt.



1) I was at a club that had contracts, specifying in part that testing was optional and additional cost.  The testing costs were not actually provided in the contract.  I had already been there about a year and a half before I signed up for a 1 year contract.  They balked somewhat when I took them up on the offer of testing being "optional" and repeatedly declined to test.  The point of it being optional was of course to make the contract legal while not disclosing the cost / scaring off parents (if tests were mandatory, then the testing fees would have to be disclosed).

2) I see higher belts being more expensive due to more board breaking.  Not sure the cost difference between 1 board and 4 boards as an example.


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## Takai (Sep 11, 2013)

DennisBreene said:


> The reality is that running a school has expenses. I would be interested in what school owners/managers experience for costs and what their return on investment is. Most of the school owners I have known have relied on other income sources, usually their primary job, to permit them to keep the doors open.



Just mirrors the old adage. "Want to make a small fortune in martial arts? Start with a large fortune and open a school."


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## granfire (Sep 11, 2013)

50 bucks for color belt test?
Sounds fine to me. That was what I paid 7 years ago. BB tests went to 95, but you tested less frequent, so still cheap...

There is a bunch of paper work to deal with for the tests, in my school's case they phased the wooden board out in favor of plastic rebreakables - but having to get like 3 of each color...that was a considerable investment up front.
Plus they supplied learning material for in class use, and those books added up as well.
The first few years we rented the gym of an elementary school and had tests with 3 other schools...that was an expense...

The school also outlined the cost before you signed up, once you reached green (about 4 month in) you were expected to purchase the sparring gear (list on the counter), etc...
I purchased most of my gear from the school because it was cheaper than buying online - or the other school of the same franchise down the road.

However, I also have ridden horses in the past...1200 dollars a year is nothing compared to the upkeep of a horse.


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## Takai (Sep 11, 2013)

granfire said:


> However, I also have ridden horses in the past...1200 dollars a year is nothing compared to the upkeep of a horse.



Indeed. I used to breed Arabs and you went through 1200 dollars a whole faster than a year...and that was over twen.....nevermind I refuse to get that old.

Sorry for the thread drift.


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## Rumy73 (Sep 12, 2013)

I do not like testing fees. When one pays tuition, why should he/she pay more? Now on to the details, most -- not all -- but most schools fail to disclose the escalating cost of testing fees and the frequency of tests. Often fail to explain that some aspects of the test have nothing to do with a larger certifying body. For example, at a school I attended, they wanted Taekwondo bb students to show proficiency with a staff or nunchucks. Mind you, in KKW TKD, these are not part of the picture at all. Learning something extra is fine, but when not explained to students/parents of students it is wrong. In fact, all the extra costs tend to be minimized or left unstated. Of course, the retort is one should ask questions. Well, guess the F-what, people do not know what to ask. Martial schools play the game carefully. If a prospective student/parent of a student knows enough to ask about testing fees, the master will often say, the "first test is XX dollars..." Yes, the first test and then it goes up in cost, which is left unsaid. I think that is pretty unethical. Telling students to purchase sparring gear from the school, at a greater cost than what one can find on the open market, by scaring parents into thinking "the equipment may not be of good quality..." OK, there is something to that but it is way overstated. Too much of MA is a racket. Sad but true.


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## Rumy73 (Sep 12, 2013)

Do you know how much boards cost? Pennies. Belts (not embroidered) are dirt cheap. There's a huge MA supply warehouse in Baltimore, MD called Warrior's Emporium. I went there years ago. When I learned what things really cost vs trusting the schools version of the cost... Anyhow bad taste in mouth.


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## Rumy73 (Sep 12, 2013)

Yes, but if a student does not "test" most schools will refuse to teach new curriculum. So new information is held hostage.


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 12, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Yes, but if a student does not "test" most schools will refuse to teach new curriculum. So new information is held hostage.



If the curriculum is different for each rank, why would they teach new material to students who don't promote? Why bother with levels at all if the material is the same?

If a student doesn't test because he or she feels they aren't ready, shouldn't they continue to practice the old material until they are ready? If it's a money issue (lack of money or principles) then I suppose you'd just be out of luck.

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## Jaeimseu (Sep 12, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I do not like testing fees. When one pays tuition, why should he/she pay more? Now on to the details, most -- not all -- but most schools fail to disclose the escalating cost of testing fees and the frequency of tests. Often fail to explain that some aspects of the test have nothing to do with a larger certifying body. For example, at a school I attended, they wanted Taekwondo bb students to show proficiency with a staff or nunchucks. Mind you, in KKW TKD, these are not part of the picture at all. Learning something extra is fine, but when not explained to students/parents of students it is wrong. In fact, all the extra costs tend to be minimized or left unstated. Of course, the retort is one should ask questions. Well, guess the F-what, people do not know what to ask. Martial schools play the game carefully. If a prospective student/parent of a student knows enough to ask about testing fees, the master will often say, the "first test is XX dollars..." Yes, the first test and then it goes up in cost, which is left unsaid. I think that is pretty unethical. Telling students to purchase sparring gear from the school, at a greater cost than what one can find on the open market, by scaring parents into thinking "the equipment may not be of good quality..." OK, there is something to that but it is way overstated. Too much of MA is a racket. Sad but true.



While I have no issue with testing fees (I charged them in the past and very likely will in the future), I've always been pretty transparent with students about costs at each level, and potential expenses like sparring gear, etc. Hitting people with hidden expenses is bad business.

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## Jaeimseu (Sep 12, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Do you know how much boards cost? Pennies. Belts (not embroidered) are dirt cheap. There's a huge MA supply warehouse in Baltimore, MD called Warrior's Emporium. I went there years ago. When I learned what things really cost vs trusting the schools version of the cost... Anyhow bad taste in mouth.



What would you consider to be a fair mark-up? Surely there's nothing wrong with turning a fair profit.

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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> What would you consider to be a fair mark-up? Surely there's nothing wrong with turning a fair profit.


I would say the profit becomes "unfair" when the explanation is less than 100% honest.  For instance, "yes, the black belt test at $600 is expensive, it's because you are getting a certified black belt from the Kukkiwon in Korea".


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## WaterGal (Sep 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> Some schools charge higher tuition in lieu of testing fees. I think a lower tuition with testing fees is better as long as the decision to test is ultimately up to the student. That way you aren't paying for anything you aren't receiving.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2



I think there's a fair argument to be made either way.  I _personally _would prefer to charge higher tuition and not charge testing fees, because I don't want people to feel like they're being cheated or hit up for money all the time.  But I have heard from people who tried that approach, that they got basically this complaint, that it's not fair that they have to pay the same as so-and-so who's progressing faster than them.  So we go with testing fees, but I try to be upfront about it, every color belt test is the same price, and we don't push people to test or even allow them to do it before they're ready.


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## AMP-RYU (Sep 12, 2013)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a school charging a testing fee. Anything you do in life that requires a test requires you pay a fee, why not martial arts? We charge out students $40 per month tuition and charge $20 per belt test. We could charge $50 per month with no test fee, but then your paying for testing even if your not testing that month. Being a full time instructor, I put a lot of time and effort into what I teach, 4-5 hours per day and feel I should get compensated for this.


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## WaterGal (Sep 12, 2013)

Takai said:


> Just mirrors the old adage. "Want to make a small fortune in martial arts? Start with a large fortune and open a school."



Hahahaha.  That's the truth, man.  We definitely underestimated how expensive it was going to be.  To answer Dennis's question, our costs are about $6,000/month, and after almost a year we're almost breaking even.  We're getting no income from the school yet.


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## Rumy73 (Sep 12, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> What would you consider to be a fair mark-up? Surely there's nothing wrong with turning a fair profit.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2



Nothing wrong with what, it is the how. A tkd master should represent integrity.  He should explain costs honestly. It could be done on a handout and given to new students. But half truths and other misinformation are plainly shady.  I attended a school where bb had to purchase a staff. The master stressed that bb students should buy his staffs, because of the quality. Turns out he was buying them from a nearby ma wholesaler and adding twelve bucks to the cost. While he may have saved someone the drive, he was turning a nice profit.  He never mentioned the store to students, which would have given them the option.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 12, 2013)

Sledgehammer said:


> Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?



I've never been charged a testing fee in nearly 40 years of training, nor have I ever charged for any test including Dan testing.  And I've owned a commercial school.  And I've promoted one person as high as 7th Dan.  Not necessarily a scam, but it is just another way to generate income.  A cert costs about a buck, for a nice one so anything beyond that is profit margin.


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 12, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Nothing wrong with what, it is the how. A tkd master should represent integrity.  He should explain costs honestly. It could be done on a handout and given to new students. But half truths and other misinformation are plainly shady.  I attended a school where bb had to purchase a staff. The master stressed that bb students should buy his staffs, because of the quality. Turns out he was buying them from a nearby ma wholesaler and adding twelve bucks to the cost. While he may have saved someone the drive, he was turning a nice profit.  He never mentioned the store to students, which would have given them the option.



Saying it was due to the quality is nonsense, but why would he mention the MA store? I'm all for honesty when it comes to business, but letting people know all the places that offer the same product or service for a lower price doesn't make much sense for most people. If I go to McDonald's, they aren't going to inform me that Burger King has a 2 for 1 going on Whoppers. That's not dishonest of them, it's just common sense.

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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 12, 2013)

AMP-RYU said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with a school charging a testing fee. Anything you do in life that requires a test requires you pay a fee, why not martial arts? We charge out students $40 per month tuition and charge $20 per belt test. We could charge $50 per month with no test fee, but then your paying for testing even if your not testing that month. Being a full time instructor, I put a lot of time and effort into what I teach, 4-5 hours per day and feel I should get compensated for this.



The tuition that you charge isn't compensation?

Are testing times outside of normal class times?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 12, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I would say the profit becomes "unfair" when the explanation is less than 100% honest.  For instance, "yes, the black belt test at $600 is expensive, it's because you are getting a certified black belt from the Kukkiwon in Korea".



What is funny is that the Kukkiwon last I knew (and that is a few years ago) charged $50 for that certificate to the instructor.  That is a huge markup.


Personally I think testing fees are wrong.  I feel that a practitioner pays for their advancement in blood, sweat and tears!  

I also feel that any instructor should be completely up front regarding all costs of training in their system so that their are no hidden or unexpected costs to the practitioner.  That is how I would like to be treated and how I treat anyone that trains with me!


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## IcemanSK (Sep 12, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> What is funny is that the Kukkiwon last I knew (and that is a few years ago) charged $50 for that certificate to the instructor.  That is a huge markup.
> 
> 
> Personally I think testing fees are wrong.  I feel that a practitioner pays for their advancement in blood, sweat and tears!
> ...




It's now $70.00 U.S. for Kukkiwon 1st Dan. Other costs may be incurred in a BB test that would increase the cost. (A guest judge, for example) I'm not arguing whether or not the price is too high, just explaining what may contribute to a higher cost of a test.


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## terrylamar (Sep 13, 2013)

AMP-RYU said:


> There is absolutely nothing wrong with a school charging a testing fee. Anything you do in life that requires a test requires you pay a fee, why not martial arts? We charge out students $40 per month tuition and charge $20 per belt test. We could charge $50 per month with no test fee, but then your paying for testing even if your not testing that month. Being a full time instructor, I put a lot of time and effort into what I teach, 4-5 hours per day and feel I should get compensated for this.



I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for High School.  This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years. 

While I don't feel strongly either for or against, I do lean towards not charging a fee, but I understand why test fees are charged.  Much the same way I feel about contracts.  As long as the school is up front about cost, why not?


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## andyjeffries (Sep 13, 2013)

terrylamar said:


> I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for High School.  This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years.



Someone was charged a fee.  You may not have paid it, but there was a fee involved.  I don't know about the US, but the same is true over here for studying up to the age of 18.  The government pays for state education, including testing fees.

After 18, when young adults go to University they DO have to pay for their learning (often paid for by a "Student Loan" from the government) and this fee is made up of tuition, materials and test fees - although often students only know the final amount, they are welcome to ask for a breakdown.

My driving test had a fee attached to it (even after all the money spent on lessons).


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## Jaeimseu (Sep 13, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> Someone was charged a fee.  You may not have paid it, but there was a fee involved.  I don't know about the US, but the same is true over here for studying up to the age of 18.  The government pays for state education, including testing fees.
> 
> After 18, when young adults go to University they DO have to pay for their learning (often paid for by a "Student Loan" from the government) and this fee is made up of tuition, materials and test fees - although often students only know the final amount, they are welcome to ask for a breakdown.
> 
> My driving test had a fee attached to it (even after all the money spent on lessons).



Tax money must go somewhere...

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## Rumy73 (Sep 13, 2013)

Jaeimseu said:


> Saying it was due to the quality is nonsense, but why would he mention the MA store? I'm all for honesty when it comes to business, but letting people know all the places that offer the same product or service for a lower price doesn't make much sense for most people. If I go to McDonald's, they aren't going to inform me that Burger King has a 2 for 1 going on Whoppers. That's not dishonest of them, it's just common sense.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk 2



I do not think he had to mention the store. It is the context.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 13, 2013)

A couple of important points; 

A. As some poster posters point out, whether or not a fee is charged is a distant second in importance to up front disclosure. (On day one my new students gets a handbook disclosing fees thru 4th Dan. ) The issue in our industry is "Surprise Fees" after the student has invested time energy and $. Wth full disclousure of fees up front there is no argument about fees being neccessary or not. 

B. I like to think that although we are in a "business" to some extent, what we do is different.  AFAIAC any student or parent who thinks it's a simple merchant / customer relationship can go somewhere else. 

FWIW, just the other day I had a father who was taking his sone out of town for a month 3 days before a test (his green stripe) ask that I test him early. As a rule I do not do this. Having individual tests to fit schedules is not workeable.  I let them test late after they return IF THEY ARE READY.  Kid is gone for a month and forgets a lot, so no late test.  When next quarterly test comes around he is still not ready. When we told him he starts crying saying the father will be upset. (We Evaluate all students before a test to see if they are ready and I had about 10 who were not, primarily because they took a summer month off.)  Father says son is ready (because the son told him he was a week earlier) accuses me of doing it to make money by making the son train 3 more months, Since we are at a park district he goes to the office and says he wants the Sept. Payment refunded.  I tell the office to do it, anyone not happy should get their $ back.  Told him the week before the son was told he wasn't ready because he did not know material, the material was reviewed at that time (prior Wed.) and on this day - Monday - he still did not know it.  Told the faher that if he had stayed and watched the class we wouldn't be having this issue.   When he heard this he told the office (Let me think about it.) 

This is the type of student / parent you can afford to lose. 

If a student does not pass, there is no charge for re test.  I have had student leave after not passing. Had one mom pull her daughter out in the middle of a class where she was not promoted. 

Sometin\mes they go another school and stop by months later tellingus about their new belt.


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## terrylamar (Sep 13, 2013)

andyjeffries said:


> Someone was charged a fee.  You may not have paid it, but there was a fee involved.  I don't know about the US, but the same is true over here for studying up to the age of 18.  The government pays for state education, including testing fees.
> 
> After 18, when young adults go to University they DO have to pay for their learning (often paid for by a "Student Loan" from the government) and this fee is made up of tuition, materials and test fees - although often students only know the final amount, they are welcome to ask for a breakdown.
> 
> My driving test had a fee attached to it (even after all the money spent on lessons).



The "government's" money, is our money, money we earned, the government didn't earn it, they took it from us.


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## AMP-RYU (Sep 13, 2013)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The tuition that you charge isn't compensation?
> 
> Are testing times outside of normal class times?



I charge $40 a month, where most schools anymore are upwards of $100 per month or more, I feel that what I charge for tuition and testing fees is plenty fair. And yes we test outside of class times on a Saturday.


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## AMP-RYU (Sep 13, 2013)

("I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for High School.  This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years. 

 While I don't feel strongly either for or against, I do lean towards not charging a fee, but I understand why test fees are charged.  Much the same way I feel about contracts.  As long as the school is up front about cost, why not?				 Terry L. Davis")
​You don't have to be a smart ***, someone IE tax money paid for all that testing, I had to pay $50 to take the SAT!, Everything I did through college required me to pay, I paid per credit hour, I paid $140 per book, and I paid for parking on campus. What I am getting at is whether or not your "paying" a testing fee, it is still included in the price you pay whether its extra or not. I charge $40 per month plus a $20 testing fee every few months, the school up the road charges $60 per month with "no" testing fees. By the time the student up the road tests in 3 months they paid $60 for their test, where my students still only paid $20. I do tell students up front about all cost involved, monthly tuition, testing, Gi purchase and any sparring related gear. Yes I charge for my Gi's, and I will tell you why. Give a student a free Gi and they will treat it like a free Gi, charge a student $30 and they will take care of it. We also DO NOT share sparring gear, staph is nasty. So if students want to spar in class they must purchase basic sparring gear, head, hands, and feet. I don't see any problem with any of it, as long as they are told upfront.


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## WaterGal (Sep 14, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> I attended a school where bb had to purchase a staff. The master stressed that bb students should buy his staffs, because of the quality. Turns out he was buying them from a nearby ma wholesaler and adding twelve bucks to the cost. While he may have saved someone the drive, he was turning a nice profit.  He never mentioned the store to students, which would have given them the option.



Question - could a student actually have gone to that wholesaler and bought the staff at the wholesale price?  Wholesalers give _much _better prices to schools, who buy things in bulk, compared with individual buyers.

For example, we pay about $100 for a set of WTF sparring gear & bag, which we retail at $150.  A student could, if they wanted, go on the Dynamics website and buy the exact same stuff (without our logo) directly from them - for about $175.  We make a decent profit, our students save some money, win-win.


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## WaterGal (Sep 14, 2013)

terrylamar said:


> I wasn't charged a test fee for Primary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee Elementary School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for Junior High School.  I wasn't charged a test fee for High School.  This pattern continued with several AA/AS Degrees from the Community College and even the University never charged me once for a test in four years.
> 
> While I don't feel strongly either for or against, I do lean towards not charging a fee, but I understand why test fees are charged.  Much the same way I feel about contracts.  As long as the school is up front about cost, why not?



Really?  You never took the SATs, AP tests or a driving test? You paid for all that. (My parents spent probably $400 on AP tests, and I know people who did a lot more). 

Also, your school district really didn't use standardized testing of any kind, or do any occupational or psychological evaluations for gifted or special needs kids?  Because that all costs money too, which your parents paid for via their tax dollars. 

Tests for professional accreditations also usually cost money, often quite a lot, as does the exam to test out of a college class (even at community college).


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 14, 2013)

I may be a little different in my thoughts on testing fees.  I feel that if a student pays their weekly/monthly fees that should be enough.
I test my students every time they are in class.  I know what they can and can not do.   When they are ready for promotion I may give them a formal test and then again I may just tell them they signed in incorrectly and give them a small amount of time to figure out what I am saying.  
Students should test themselves every time they enter class and instructors should test the student every class.  Working hard on material needed for the next level or on anything passed on to them in class is part of what being a student is all about.
My testing considers all of what a students give in each and every class.  They earn their ranks with hard work, sweat, maybe blood, and the ability to pass on what they have learned.
If I charge students for class I believe I have an agreement with them on what they will pay.  If at some time they need sparring equipment I have some they can use until they decide or can afford to buy their own.  If they want private lessons then I may consider charging them a little extra but most only want the lessons they get each night.
As others have said the fees should be explained on the first day of class and should be repeated (if you charge for testing) periodically in class to all


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## terrylamar (Sep 14, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Really?  You never took the SATs, AP tests or a driving test? You paid for all that. (My parents spent probably $400 on AP tests, and I know people who did a lot more).
> 
> Also, your school district really didn't use standardized testing of any kind, or do any occupational or psychological evaluations for gifted or special needs kids?  Because that all costs money too, which your parents paid for via their tax dollars.
> 
> Tests for professional accreditations also usually cost money, often quite a lot, as does the exam to test out of a college class (even at community college).



I'm not sure what has everyone's panties in a wad.  I refuted a claim a poster made about a fee being charged for every test by citing examples.  Further, these examples, the Public School System, more closely resemble a Martial Arts School Program than most of the other examples cited.  I can't help but think that some of you are feeling guilty about charging for a test by the defensive comments you are making.  I don't care what your business plan is, that is between you and your students and their parents, as the case may be.  You have to pay the bills, not me.  If you want to include everything in your tuition or charge separately for testing, good for you.  Quit being so defensive and participate in the discussion!


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2013)

Last time I checked, the government wasn't ponying up any cash to pay for the cost of a martial arts program. 

We charge a testing fee. It varies by rank, as does the test itself. Nobody is required to test. Nobody fails. If they're not ready, they don't test. If they can't pass a section at the actual test, their promotion is "pending" till they complete. The ONLY thing I've ever seen put a promotion on hold was a failed break, generally with younger, newer, students. 

Our program costs $40 a month for YMCA members. $60 for nonmembers. We offer 5 classes each week. 
I haven't heard anybody in our program suggest that the testing fees are an issue. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 15, 2013)

terrylamar said:


> .  I refuted a claim a poster made about a fee being charged for every test by citing examples.  Further, these examples, the Public School System, more closely resemble a Martial Arts School Program than most of the other examples cited. !



IMNSHO - No they are not.

Public Schools - Public. MA Schools - Not. 

Public Schools - Attendance required until a certain age . MA schools - not. 
Public Schools - Acceptable to turn ou a percentage of mediocre products and have them advance. MA schools, hopefuly not. 
Public Schools - Teachers keep their jobs although often large numbers of their products fail to meet standards.  MA schools - hopefuly not. 
Public schools - No worries about paying the bills . MA schools - yes.


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## RTKDCMB (Sep 15, 2013)

Dirty Dog said:


> Last time I checked, the government wasn't ponying up any cash to pay for the cost of a martial arts program.



One of my students back in the day had epilepsy, he applied to some government funded scheme that paid his training fees for him.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 20, 2013)

Sledgehammer said:


> Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO.


Scam?  Not necesarilly.  If he ups tuition to include testing fees his competition will appear to undercut him.  So long as he isn't driving people to test frequently and/or before they're ready as I assume you alude to here,



Sledgehammer said:


> I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions.


, then no, I don't see it as a scam.  Now, more than fifty dollars for a colored belt test or fees from three to six hundred for a black belt test?  That's insane!

What do I think personally?  I teach independently and do not charge for tests.  I get belts and boards at wholesale.  A belt is about five bucks.  An embroidered black belt can be had for anywhere from about twenty to thirty dollars depending on how many ends and columns per end you have embroidered.  Most of my students are kendo students anyway, and we don't wear belts.  I refer students to e-bogu.com for equipment and uniforms and keep enough shinai on hand so that a new student can join in without having to buy anything.  

My fee is about sixty eight per month, which is set by the ballet studio where I teach from.  My rent is roughly a hundred a month, as I rent time at the studio rather than space.  Needless to say, I'm not a big commercial school.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 20, 2013)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now, more than fifty dollars for a colored belt test or fees from three to six hundred for a black belt test?  That's insane!
> 
> My fee is about sixty eight per month, which is set by the ballet studio where I teach from.



At 2 local dojangs I looked at, both were $90 for twice per week, and $600 for 1st dan. When I asked how much BB testing was, one school said "$600, the same as the other Korean masters".  It sounded like they got together and agreed on pricing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 21, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> At 2 local dojangs I looked at, both were $90 for twice per week, and $600 for 1st dan. When I asked how much BB testing was, one school said "$600, the same as the other Korean masters".  It sounded like they got together and agreed on pricing.


I'm not sure where you are, but that is not uncommon around here.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Sep 21, 2013)

I am in Toronto (Canada).


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 21, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I am in Toronto (Canada).


Seems that the practice is international.


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## WaterGal (Sep 23, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> At 2 local dojangs I looked at, both were $90 for twice per week, and $600 for 1st dan. When I asked how much BB testing was, one school said "$600, the same as the other Korean masters".  It sounded like they got together and agreed on pricing.



Maybe.  I think it's more likely that a few school owners years or decades ago started charging fees like that, and all of their students that opened schools followed suit, and it became standard business practice in the area.  Where I'm at is similar, and I'm pretty sure that's how it got going.


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## miguksaram (Sep 25, 2013)

Sledgehammer said:


> Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?


I do not feel, for the most part that exams are a scam.  You have to look at it from a different perspective.  If the instructor makes their livelihood teaching, his/her major source of income come from three different areas, tuition, equipment sales, testing fees.  Some places will charge a lot, some just for a belt and a cert.  Every place is different.  If you do not agree with their policy then by all means leave the school, but I would not say they are scamming you.



			
				sfs982000 said:
			
		

> For those that  actually own/run schools I would love to hear how you break down testing  fees and what the difference is in the break down between color belt  and black belt testing fees.


For the first 9th-4th kyu/gup their fee is $50.00, 3rd-2nd kyu/gup is $75.00,  1st kyu/gup is $100.00,  and 1st dan is $200.00.  The $200.00 covers certification from the American Karate Association and KKW certification.


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## skribs (Nov 15, 2013)

Coming from the world of IT Certifications, I'm used to hundreds of dollars per test to qualify. Any training material is an additional cost.  (I'm also used to buying new skills every level in MMORPGs). So testing or rank-up fees are not new to me. While I would prefer an all-inclusive tuition, I know others don't test as often as I do and probably appreciate not having to pay $20/month extra in tuition to have an all-inclusive tuition fee.


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## WaterGal (Nov 15, 2013)

mvcoburn said:


> Some of the schools I have attended charge higher testing fees with each new belt which doesn't make sense when the cost to test a white belt is the same as the cost to test a blue belt.



Yeah, the guy I trained under did this.... he's a great guy, fantastic martial artist, etc etc, but that seemed questionable to me too.  We do charge testing fees, but it's the same fee for each color belt (ETA: and we're upfront about the cost).  The only way I could see doing that is to spread out the higher cost of a black belt test, instead of charging it all at once.


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## Balrog (Nov 17, 2013)

Sledgehammer said:


> Do you think that testing fees are a scam or that they are justified? The way I see it, I'm paying $99/month total (TKD & HKD school, unlimited classes). Testing fees for anything under blackbelt is $50. The way I see it, I'm paying $1,200 year to attend, I think that I should not be charged for promotions, IMO. I personally will not test until I am 100% ready, I want no McDojo promotions. What do you all think?


Testing fees are how our central organization is funded.  We collect the fee, keep a portion for our expenses and send the rest to HQ.  I tell my students right up front what their testing fees are and no one has ever complained.


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