# WC counter to a hook or outside punch



## PiedmontChun (Jul 10, 2014)

My question is not so much a "what is the correct WC / WT way to handle ____ attack" but more an inquiry to gain insight on how different lineages / schools teach something specific.
I was taught the chest height Tan Sau (the first one in the SLT form) as a common deflection from the inside against standard jab or slightly off center attacks and made even more effective with a pivot. Anything much higher than chest height or coming in with an arch (like a haymaker or hook punch) was dealt with by using a fook sau type movement (palm facing down, elbow out somewhat, generating both forward and also slightly outward pressure). Emphasis on simultaneous attack as well of course.
I have more recently encountered those who teach a high Tan Sau (palm flat at eye level, upper arm just about parallel with the ground) and "send it forward" to deal with the same type of punch coming high and from the outside. This type of movement for me is 1) very had to do relaxed as it puts tension in my arm to flatten the palm that high, and 2) seems like it would collapse if it encounted great force.
Thoughts?


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## KPM (Jul 10, 2014)

I agree with you.  I would prefer to counter such a strike as the way you describe.  I would call it a Biu Sau though.  A Tan Sau does become less biomechanically sound the higher up you hold it or angle it.  But I have seen TWC guys use it very effectively in this fashion.  For me, if I need to lift or angle my Tan Sau such that my fingertips would be above my own eye level, then I am going to turn it into a Biu Sau because it is stronger at that height.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> I have more recently encountered those who teach a high Tan Sau (palm flat at eye level, upper arm just about parallel with the ground) and "send it forward" to deal with the same type of punch coming high and from the outside. This type of movement for me is 1) very had to do relaxed as it puts tension in my arm to flatten the palm that high, and 2) seems like it would collapse if it encounted great force.
> Thoughts?


How about to use "double Tan Shou"?

- Since your head is well protected, you can be more relax. 
- Also since you can protect your center from inside out, you don't have to worry about any punch that may come in between your arms. This make you only have to deal with punches that come from both sides of your arms. You have just reduce the punching complexity to less than 50%.
- No matter how strong that your opponent's punch may be, his single arm punch can't collapse your both arm defense.
- You can use hard block to hurt your opponent's punch. You can also use soft block to deflect and sticky on your opponent's punch. 
- Your big fist is so close to your opponent's face. This will make your opponent to always worry about your attack.
- You can separate your both arms any time you want to.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 10, 2014)

Different theories, structures and facing apply depending on the shape & range of the punch you are engaging. This mostly depends on whether you're talking about a short, closer-range 'true' hook, or a larger/longer looping haymaker type 'hook'. (I don't typically classify the later as a true 'hook' form a boxing perspective, but it can fall loosely into that category for discussion purposes)

If a longer-range haymaker type hook (as shown in John's video), then 4 gate-defense applications with 2-line defense strategy typically apply . From a technique perspective, use of a biu sau structured shape with proper facing into the punch would work best as it engages the attack before the puncher can generate full torque necessary to make the punch effective and also keeps the attacker's arm far enough away for when/if the punch 'whips' around your biu sau at the contact point. for 2-lines offence/defense, you would most likely back up the longer biu sau technique with  wu sau before you striek from the back/wu sau position. 
To agree with KPM, a taan sau in this situation would be too short as it lets the punch generate too much force and get too close to the defender's body with the fist too close to the face (as well as violating what I would call outside-the-box principles). 

For a shorter hook punch, this is more of what I would consider inside-the-box, so 'box theory' concepts/strategies apply. Biu Sau or even a wu sau shape would work, and the facing is a little different than the first. Also, your backup hand would most likely be covering on centerline between you and your opponent and they are now knocking on the door of your 'box' (simultaneous offence/defense). In this case again, a taan sau still typically doesn't work. And I say this not just from a theoretical concepts/principle perspective, but also because I've tried it numerous times and all to very low effect and lots of hits getting thru


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## JPinAZ (Jul 10, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about to use "double Tan Shou"?
> 
> - Since your head is well protected, you can be more relax.
> - Also since you can protect your center from inside out, you don't have to worry about any punch that may come in between your arms. This make you only have to deal with punches that come from both sides of your arms. You have just reduce the punching complexity to less than 50%.
> ...



While probably an _effective_ solution, I wouldn't say it's fully _efficient _from a WC POV. From my experience, without WC's 2-line or simultaneous offence/defense strategy, or any clear gate/box theories as I understand them, I would consider what is shown in the video as purely defensive and more chasing hands than anything else.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2014)

JPinAZ said:


> the video as purely defensive and more chasing hands than anything else.



The offense is not shown in that clip. In the normal situation, you only need to block 2 punches (1 from each side) and you are moving in (between his arms). 

 The reason that you chase your opponent's arm because you try to shut down his striking ability ASAP. Again, how to disable your opponent's striking ability (by wrapping his striking arms) is also not shown in that clip.


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## KPM (Jul 10, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about to use "double Tan Shou"?
> 
> - Since your head is well protected, you can be more relax.
> - Also since you can protect your center from inside out, you don't have to worry about any punch that may come in between your arms. This make you only have to deal with punches that come from both sides of your arms. You have just reduce the punching complexity to less than 50%.
> ...



Hi John!

Your "Rhino" technique is actually more of a double Biu Sao than it is a double Tan Sao.  It is also very similar to Tony Blauer's "Spear" technique.   I'll bet you and Blauer follow up into a grapple very similarly as far as going on to trap the opponent's arm or head.   Michael Janich also does something very similar in his "Damithurt Silat."   So it has to be good stuff!   The main objection from a Wing Chun perspective would be that it is purely defensive rather then defending and attacking at the same time.   That's not to say the Wing Chun (at least my Wing Chun) wouldn't defend without attacking at the same time....sometimes you have to as an entry or when closing from a bit further out.  But in the video you are already close enough to the opponent that you could be striking him at the same time as you are using your Rhino to stop that wide swinging punch.  Wing Chun would look at that as a missed opportunity.  So that's not to say that there is anything wrong with what you are doing...you are in good company with Blauer and Janich!  Its just to say that most Wing Chun I have seen would choose a different tactic.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 10, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The offense is not shown in that clip. In the normal situation, you only need to block 2 punches (1 from each side) and you are moving in (between his arms).
> The reason that you chase your opponent's arm because you try to shut down his striking ability ASAP. Again, how to disable your opponent's striking ability (by wrapping his striking arms) is also not shown in that clip.



Yes, I remember you showing a follow up video demonstrating this in the past and respect your view and experience and I'm sure you make approach this work very well!
For a counter point, _IMO _this approach has less with WC's concepts, strategy/tactics & efficiency/economy of motion and more to do with SJ/wrestling-type strategy & tactics. Unless in emergency, WC doesn't aim for wrapping up the opponent's arms to limit striking. In WC, we look to do this by gaining proper position, leverage and trapping to allow for WC striking with equal reach of both hands and feet. defending multiple attacks via chasing hands and then wrapping up the arms and grappling with our opponent commits to grappling and wrestling timeframe. Again, effective, but not WC's methods of simultaneous offence/defense bridging & striking stategies.


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## PiedmontChun (Jul 10, 2014)

Both scenarios I was describing would involve a simultaneous (or near simultaneous) attack like a straight punch.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 10, 2014)

Strictly speaking of only Tan Sau against a jab punch, we train taan sau to high position/upper reference with the wrist about nose level. Of course, to make this work, you need proper contact point (about mid arm/kiu on the taan sau), fwd pressure & angle of the arm (can't be straight up & down), proper elbow position as well as facing. Anything lower typically doesn't give the proper leverage needed to take advantage of the contact/position. When trained correctly, there is really no pressure on the shoulder or arm as most of the force should be transfer thru the elbow to the hip and into the ground thru your root.

our high tan sau can be seen @ 0:26 here:





Of course, while you can use tan sau for engagement, IMO it is typically more of a secondary reactionary tool for absorbing/spreading incoming force once contact is already made on the kiu/arm vs being an engagement or 'blocking' tool - specially against an outside-the-box type hooking punch. And in my experience, using Tan Da is based more on range as well as position. Sometimes you are in range to strike, and sometimes you are not. This is why I mentioned use 2-line defense with the wu sau supporting/backing up the tan sau for longer range attacks outside the box as you are not always in range to strike against longer, less-committed attacks like a probing jab or stiff lead..


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2014)

If you change your "double Tan Shou" into "left Tan Shout, right punch" and "right Tan Shou, left punch" combo, you have achieved both "block and strike at the same time" and "protect your center from inside out". Whether your Tan Shou is away from your head, or close to your head as combing the hair (or crazy monkey), the principle is the same.


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## mook jong man (Jul 10, 2014)

In our lineage we use a Dai Sau , it is structurally very strong from the front and the side.
The key to it's effectiveness is to mirror the position of the opponents elbow , the finger tips stay on the centre line but the elbow reflects the position of the opponents elbow.

The Dai Sau requires no pivoting , just step straight in and punch.

Tan Sau against a hook is pretty much useless in my opinion , it requires you to pivot , and there is precious little margin for error.
Unlike the Dai Sau which actually absorbs the opponents force and makes you heavier , the Tan Sau destabilises you as the opponents force comes underneath it and effects your stance , that's assuming it hasn't crashed straight through it and hit you in the head.


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## Marnetmar (Jul 10, 2014)

What is Dai Sau exactly? Those image links don't seem to be working. 

EDIT:

Never mind, figured it out. This is actually something I do instinctively, I thought it was a type of Tan and I didn't know it actually had a name. Cool!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> What is Dai Sau exactly?



Does it look like XingYi Pao Chuan (a middle ground between Tan Shou and Bong Shou)? To change the open palm of your Tan into punch may be slow. You may just want to use your fist in your blocking arm instead. The XingYi Pao Chuan is one good example that "block and strike simultaneously" principle also exist in non-WC system.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jul 11, 2014)

The traditional western boxing hook isn't that difficult to defend but the Chinese variations of hooks are pretty hard to defend against in my opinion. 

Check out this video on YouTube:






Check out this video on YouTube:







Here's two videos of some CLF hooks that I found I could usually land a high percentage of the time while sparring my WC buddies. It's the weird angles and the retreating or side stepping while throwing 
This hook that makes it deceptive and also power.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about to use "double Tan Shou"?
> 
> - Since your head is well protected, you can be more relax.
> - Also since you can protect your center from inside out, you don't have to worry about any punch that may come in between your arms. This make you only have to deal with punches that come from both sides of your arms. You have just reduce the punching complexity to less than 50%.
> ...



OK John, I can see that your "big fist" technique works OK against someone throwing haymakers and jabs from the outside. How does it work against an aggressive boxer who slips your big double fist and moves in close with short, sharp hooks?

Or more importantly, since this is a WC forum,_ how does it fare against a strong Lap-Da_ where the opponent grabs your bridge and turns you aside while simultaneously punching with the other hand? That big heavy double-fist looks pretty ponderous and stiff, making a likely handle to grab and use to turn your opponent. And even if you are strong enough not to be turned, a good WC man will use the same energy to yield and flex his own position and move around you, like water around a rock. --that's what the dummy trains.


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> What is Dai Sau exactly? Those image links don't seem to be working.
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Never mind, figured it out. This is actually something I do instinctively, I thought it was a type of Tan and I didn't know it actually had a name. Cool!



Dunno what happened to those pics mate , seemed to have disappeared into the ether.
I'll try again.
Another good thing is that from Dai Sau it is really easy to convert into Bong Sau with a pivot and let a really heavy strike just roll right over the top.


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

Here's a Dai Sau and Strike used against an attack with a stick.

To my knowledge ours is the only lineage that does this Dai Sau movement.
Most seem to use Tan Sau's , Fook Sau's and other variants.


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

Marnetmar , here is one of my students and I doing a bit of light stuff using the Dai Sau in four corner deflection.

The deflection for the low strikes we call Chit Sau.

[video=vimeo;63620955]http://vimeo.com/63620955[/video]


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## PiedmontChun (Jul 11, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Marnetmar , here is one of my students and I doing a bit of light stuff using the Dai Sau in four corner deflection.
> 
> The deflection for the low strikes we call Chit Sau.
> 
> [video=vimeo;63620955]http://vimeo.com/63620955[/video]



Thanks for chiming and posting good pics / video Mook, I was not familiar with Dai Sau at all. In practice it looks very similar to the outward fook sau movement I was initially taught. I see your point about being able to easily roll to Bong Sau if needed. I don't think the high Tan Sau could roll to Bong Sau without collapsing due since the elbow is already so high.


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> Thanks for chiming and posting good pics / video Mook, I was not familiar with Dai Sau at all. In practice it looks very similar to the outward fook sau movement I was initially taught. I see your point about being able to easily roll to Bong Sau if needed. I don't think the high Tan Sau could roll to Bong Sau without collapsing due since the elbow is already so high.



I only use Tan Sau against straight punches and spinning back- fists mate.

Using it against a hook is just too damn risky in my opinion , the harder you throw a hook against a Dai Sau the more it hurts your arm , I don't feel that against a Tan Sau.

Besides , with a Dai Sau sometimes you get a bonus limb destruction as they accidentally ram their inner forearm into the point of your elbow.  :EG:


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> Thanks for chiming and posting good pics / video Mook, I was not familiar with Dai Sau at all. In practice it looks very similar to the outward fook sau movement I was initially taught. I see your point about being able to easily roll to Bong Sau if needed...



Agreed. In the WT I learned from LT back in the 80s, we used this same "dai-sau" response to good effect, but like you we called it "Fook-sau" --not to be confused with the hook-wristed fook sau used in chi sau. I continue to use it and train it using the "four corners drill", much like _Mook._


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## JPinAZ (Jul 11, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> Marnetmar , here is one of my students and I doing a bit of light stuff using the Dai Sau in four corner deflection.
> 
> The deflection for the low strikes we call Chit Sau.



Thanks for sharing. Looking at the pics and then your video, I was reminded of when I first started training WC and that I was shown something like this. I soon found out that when I tried this against someone that could throw proper, tight hooks (and even more-seriously committed looser 'haymakers'), this shape and facing you are demonstrating didn't really hold up all too well. I later learned that it was a lesson my teacher was trying to pass along about how important it is to have proper facing along with the tools when working 4-gate (corners) defense.

I realize the pics are posed most likely for promotional purposes, but none of them represent anything I would deem as a realistic hooking attack. Watching the video I see more of the same the same (no 'body' behind the hook, it is out of range to make contact, etc) and assume the intent was just to demo the idea (?) I'm not trying to slight you either, so wanted to ask if you have any clips of you using this against someone that has some experience & training throwing these types of attacks with proper body mechanics and doing so with more intent and commitment to actually hit you?

Thanks,
JP


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

JPinAZ said:


> Thanks for sharing. Looking at the pics and then your video, I was reminded of when I first started training WC and that I was shown something like this. I soon found out that when I tried this against someone that could throw proper, tight hooks (and even more-seriously committed looser 'haymakers'), this shape and facing you are demonstrating didn't really hold up all too well. I later learned that it was a lesson my teacher was trying to pass along about how important it is to have proper facing along with the tools when working 4-gate (corners) defense.
> 
> I realize the pics are posed most likely for promotional purposes, but none of them represent anything I would deem as a realistic hooking attack. Watching the video I see more of the same the same (no 'body' behind the hook, it is out of range to make contact, etc) and assume the intent was just to demo the idea (?) I'm not trying to slight you either, so wanted to ask if you have any clips of you using this against someone that has some experience & training throwing these types of attacks with proper body mechanics and doing so with more intent and commitment to actually hit you?
> 
> ...



No I don't have any video of it.
But in the past I have tested it against very heavy force.
I did say that the video was light stuff , because we didn't have any arm pads on.

What you say is true though , there is a lot of power in a tight hook that's for sure.
But by the same token you should be throwing your own punch out as soon as you see movement , you are not just going to stand there and let the deflection take the full brunt of the force.

The thing with a tight hook is that the force is coming around from the side , and I stated in earlier posts about reflecting the opponents elbow.
This is absolutely crucial , if the opponent is throwing a more straightish type of hook then you will be raising your Dai Sau up with your elbow in to match his elbow .

But if the the opponent is using a very tight hook then your elbow will be right out to match his elbow .
As you intercept and make contact you also raise up and slightly rotate your Dai Sau in a circular fashion like you are doing half a Bong Sau which helps to absorb a bit more of the force from the hook.

The beauty of the technique though is that in the event that the incoming force is too great which is often the case as in a powerful tight hook or a swinging Choy Lay Fut strike , then you must convert it into Bong Sau and pivot to let the force ride over and away from you.
Then you lap sau the arm and Fak Sau the throat.

But you have to train for this , it won't happen automatically , you have to practice changing the Dai Sau into a Bong Sau and pivoting .
Pretty soon you start to get a feeling for when the Dai Sau is taking too much pressure from the side and you immediately change into Bong and pivot.

Again I have to reiterate  , any deflection is only your secondary defence , your primary defence is to get your own punch out there as fast and as hard as you can.


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## Kwan Sau (Jul 11, 2014)

I have found the opposite to be better. Isn't that odd eh? I guess that's the cool part about WC...it can fit a multitude of body types/shapes/personalities, etc .
Tan sau vs spinning backfist...sure I can see that as a possible solution. But Tan sau's (at least for me and my WC) work wonders against wild looping haymakers; whereas a Bil sau or even a Fot sau for the tighter boxer-type hooks at closer range etc. 
Thx for posting the vid. 





mook jong man said:


> I only use Tan Sau against straight punches and spinning back- fists mate.
> 
> Using it against a hook is just too damn risky in my opinion , the harder you throw a hook against a Dai Sau the more it hurts your arm , I don't feel that against a Tan Sau.
> 
> Besides , with a Dai Sau sometimes you get a bonus limb destruction as they accidentally ram their inner forearm into the point of your elbow.  :EG:


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> I have found the opposite to be better. Isn't that odd eh? I guess that's the cool part about WC...it can fit a multitude of body types/shapes/personalities, etc .
> Tan sau vs spinning backfist...sure I can see that as a possible solution. But Tan sau's (at least for me and my WC) work wonders against wild looping haymakers; whereas a Bil sau or even a Fot sau for the tighter boxer-type hooks at closer range etc.
> Thx for posting the vid.



Yeah against spinning back fist , use Tan Sau in tandem with a low side palm to the kidneys then stamp kick to the back of the knee.

Another variation is to do Tan Sau , low side palm , and stamp kick all at once.


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## ST1Doppelganger (Jul 11, 2014)

Can someone repost the pics because for some reason I can't view them on my iphone and I'm intrigued about the technique.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2014)

geezer said:


> How does it work against an aggressive boxer who slips your big double fist and moves in close with short, sharp hooks? ...  the opponent grabs your bridge and turns you aside while simultaneously punching with the other hand?


When your opponent 

- uses short, sharp hooks at you, there will be a gap between his upper arm and his lower arm. You will separate your big fist, move one arm into that space (between his upper arm and his lower arm), and wrap his upper arm. Now your body and your opponent's body are "connected". Your opponent can't move away from you. You then use the other arm as a 45 degree downward haymaker, hit on the back of his head, and then apply a head lock on him.
- uses one hand to grab your big double fists, you will also separate your arms, wrap one arm around your opponent's grabbing arm, and use the other arm to deal with his incoming punch, you comb your hair, use your haymaker to hit on the back of his head, and get a head lock on him.

Your arms will function as 2 octopus arms that can wrap on anything that your arm can 'touch".

This is what you want to achieve. When your opponent tries to deal with your double big fist, you want to get a head lock on him. As long as his arms are not protecting his head, his head will be open for you.






If your opponent uses boxing guard to guard his head well, it's very difficult to get a head lock on him. You use your big fist to "invite" his arms to be away from his head. That's your intention.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 11, 2014)

John, in your last post, are you describing your response from a WC perspective, or SJ/wrestling perspective?
I ask because the video attached doesn't seem to have much to do with typical WC methods, principle or body mechanics as most people will view them, so it could be confusing what you are trying to share on a thread titled "WC counter to hook or outside punch".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2014)

That post was to respond to geezer's 2 questions - short sharp hook and grab bridge.


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your opponent
> 
> - uses short, sharp hooks at you, there will be a gap between his upper arm and his lower arm. You will separate your big fist, move one arm into that space (between his upper arm and his lower arm), and wrap his upper arm. Now your body and your opponent's body are "connected". Your opponent can't move away from you. You then use the other arm as a 45 degree downward haymaker, hit on the back of his head, and then apply a head lock on him.
> - uses one hand to grab your big double fists, you will also separate your arms, wrap one arm around your opponent's grabbing arm, and use the other arm to deal with his incoming punch, you comb your hair, use your haymaker to hit on the back of his head, and get a head lock on him.
> ...



John , we know you mean well and everything , but your Big Fist thing has got absolutely nothing to do with Wing Chun principles at all.
On a side note I do like that training location you have there , looks like a large deck of some sort overlooking some rather beautiful  scenery , with the birds twittering in the background , very relaxing.

Nice place to meditate I imagine , or even better just sit there and reflect with a six pack of your favourite brew.


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> John , we know you mean well and everything , but your Big Fist thing has got absolutely nothing to do with Wing Chun principles at all.



@ _John and Mook:_ True, the big fist is _not_ WC. It is however an interesting way for a grappler to penetrate a striker's defenses and get into the clinch/throw range. And it does share the _wedging concept_ of the WC  man-sau/wu-sau guard. And, I have encountered a lot of situations where I've countered a haymaker using a _fook-da_ (similar to your dai-sau and punch) and finished with a throw very much like John's, but using a sweep that is actually a _huen-bo _or "circle step" with a turn. I'm not sure if it's great WC, but throwing people down is _really fun_.




mook jong man said:


> On a side note I do like that training location you have there , looks like a large deck of some sort overlooking some rather beautiful  scenery , with the birds twittering in the background , very relaxing.
> 
> Nice place to meditate I imagine , or even better just sit there and reflect with a six pack of your favourite brew.



Hmmmm. Every time I see one of John's videos shot on that deck I think the same thing.


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