# what is ninjutsu?



## T.Durden (Jun 5, 2006)

What Is this style of fighting training? Can someone explain? this isnt like scorpion and sub zero from mortal kombat is it or not? I've never come across anyone in my life to say they actually trained in it so I'd like any and all information on what it is, the schools and all!


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## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

I have a question for the Ninjas.You tell me the Koga line is no more.I honor your word of that .My question is (  I had a teacher for Sul Sa do & he claimed the gentlemans art was from Koga Korea & the line is Koga ninja.I did send clips of this line to Shesulsa as well as my main teacher Wong Joon Lee for Tdk-Hwarang-do & Sulsa.IS the Hwarang & Sulsa some form of ninja?If it is then is it Koga as they told me & tought me ( from Koga  Korea)


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## Kreth (Jun 5, 2006)

T.Durden said:
			
		

> What Is this style of fighting training? Can someone explain? this isnt like scorpion and sub zero from mortal kombat is it or not? I've never come across anyone in my life to say they actually trained in it so I'd like any and all information on what it is, the schools and all!


The search button can be your friend.


			
				monkey said:
			
		

> I have a question for the Ninjas.You tell me the Koga line is no more.I honor your word of that .My question is ( I had a teacher for Sul Sa do & he claimed the gentlemans art was from Koga Korea & the line is Koga ninja.I did send clips of this line to Shesulsa as well as my main teacher Wong Joon Lee for Tdk-Hwarang-do & Sulsa.IS the Hwarang & Sulsa some form of ninja?If it is then is it Koga as they told me & tought me ( from Koga Korea)


I'll say this again, there is no Korean ninjutsu. There may be some superficial similarities, but by definition, there were no Korean ninja. The Koga tradition was named after the Koga region of Japan.


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## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

I understand the AKoga line in Japan is gone.There is a reigon in Korea called Koga & I did send footage so shesulsa of the Koga-Hwrang-Sulsa.I need to know on the Korean side  Is this possable?Once again thanks for the info of Japanese line>Please do you have any info that may lead to the Koga line  in Koga Korea !I know the Hwrang do is a stem of a ninja type-How about the Sulsa?


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## Kreth (Jun 5, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Please do you have any info that may lead to the Koga line in Koga Korea


I don't know anything about arts originating in Koga, Korea. I do know that they would not be Japanese arts, and thus are off-topic for the Ninjutsu forums.


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## heretic888 (Jun 5, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I understand the AKoga line in Japan is gone.There is a reigon in Korea called Koga & I did send footage so shesulsa of the Koga-Hwrang-Sulsa.I need to know on the Korean side Is this possable?Once again thanks for the info of Japanese line>Please do you have any info that may lead to the Koga line in Koga Korea !I know the Hwrang do is a stem of a ninja type-How about the Sulsa?


 
The "sulsa" never existed. They're about as real as the "lin kuei".

The "hwarang" were more like Boy Scouts for the nobility, rather than being a group of warriors per se. No martial art existing today has a historical connection to these individuals.

Please see: 

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53897

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16482

Laterz.


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## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

Hwarang do there is a great org. in Calif. under  Dr.Joo Bang Lee.I take it you say this line is dead.In just asking not any other intent.I was tought a line &told things that seem to have so line but has holes.If you catch what I mean.The Sulsa was tought out of Colorado  & has Hwrang line.In not talking Kooksul. They specified Hwarang.


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## heretic888 (Jun 5, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Hwarang do there is a great org. in Calif. under Dr.Joo Bang Lee.I take it you say this line is dead.In just asking not any other intent.I was tought a line &told things that seem to have so line but has holes.If you catch what I mean.The Sulsa was tought out of Colorado & has Hwrang line.In not talking Kooksul. They specified Hwarang.


 
Please review the links I just posted.

The "sulsa" never existed in Korean history.

The "hwarang" were something like youth training for male nobles. No martial arts connected to them survives to this day.

There is quite a lot of discussion about Joo Bang Lee in the second thread. I suggest reading through it in its entirety.

Laterz.


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## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

Thanks you or in Japanes Domo aregoto.Wakati masta!


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## shesulsa (Jun 5, 2006)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - revisionist history is a classic trait of all asian empires.  Japan occupied the peninsula, China occupied the peninsula ... did they bring their arts there or did they take arts from there?

I suppose when we all die and become one with the creator and realize all that ever was and all that is to ever be, we will all know for sure.  Until then, it's all just arguments we based on the history we are willing to back.

Who cares, really, beyond the obvious care in honor, where it came from?


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## monkey (Jun 5, 2006)

Cool post.I agree -the after life tells all.Unless it turns out like Twilight zone & we keep looping till we all figure it out.


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## Carol (Jun 6, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I've said it before and I'll say it again - revisionist history is a classic trait of all asian empires. Japan occupied the peninsula, China occupied the peninsula ...


 
... and everyone learned how to fight in the process.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 6, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I have a question for the Ninjas.You tell me the Koga line is no more.I honor your word of that .My question is (  I had a teacher for Sul Sa do & he claimed the gentlemans art was from Koga Korea & the line is Koga ninja.I did send clips of this line to Shesulsa as well as my main teacher Wong Joon Lee for Tdk-Hwarang-do & Sulsa.IS the Hwarang & Sulsa some form of ninja?If it is then is it Koga as they told me & tought me ( from Koga  Korea)


The accepted history is that the Koga line is extinct.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=537440&postcount=5
I cite numerous sources there.

As to "Korean" Ninjas: 1 word: Hogwash.
In any event, this is a JAPANESE Ninjutsu forum, discussion of so-called non-Japanese Ninjutsu belongs elsewhere. (And American Ninjitsu belongs on another board all together, maybe a Power Rangers Fan Site?)

If you are interested in Korean arts, you might try a Korean art forum.


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## Don Roley (Jun 6, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> The Sulsa was tought out of Colorado  & has Hwrang line.



Kind of doubt it. Given the fact that you are eager to drop names and such, the fact that you don't here causes me to think that maybe you really can't give a name of someone who will confirm that you trained with them.


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## HKphooey (Jun 6, 2006)

Anyone have any information on the actual style as T.Durden first asked?  I am would love to hear more about the style , too.

Thanks


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## Kreth (Jun 6, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> Anyone have any information on the actual style as T.Durden first asked? I am would love to hear more about the style , too.
> 
> Thanks


The question has been asked and answered many times. Search, young padawan.


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## matt.m (Jun 6, 2006)

I am with HKPhooey.  Somebody tell me about Ninjutsu.  No more of this bickering back and forth.


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## Kreth (Jun 6, 2006)




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## mrhnau (Jun 6, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> I am with HKPhooey.  Somebody tell me about Ninjutsu.  No more of this bickering back and forth.



Search Search Search! The Search button is your friend! There is alot of stuff on here, please don't make us repeat it. Search some of the stickies in the traditional ninjutsu page. Great place to start.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I've said it before and I'll say it again - revisionist history is a classic trait of all asian empires. Japan occupied the peninsula, China occupied the peninsula ... did they bring their arts there or did they take arts from there?
> 
> I suppose when we all die and become one with the creator and realize all that ever was and all that is to ever be, we will all know for sure. Until then, it's all just arguments we based on the history we are willing to back.



Or, shesula, we could be completely rational about the subject, evaluate all of the available "evidence", look at the sources of said "evidence", and then make an informed decision for ourselves. 

Regarding most of the modern Korean martial arts (Taekwondo, Hapkido, Hwarang-do, and so on), they are influenced heavily by Japanese martial arts, especially Shotokan Karate-do and Daito Ryu Aikijutsu. This most likely took place during the Japanese occupation of Korea.

Please read through the threads I linked for more details.



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> Who cares, really, beyond the obvious care in honor, where it came from?



Two reasons that I can see:

1) Some of us believe that the truth is a worthwhile endeavor in and of itself, regardless of any utilitarian value it might have to us.

2) It has a lot to do with personal integrity. Men like Frank Dux and Joo Bang Lee may indeed be awesome martial artists and incredible teachers, but they also seem to have lied extensively about their backgrounds, refuse to provide proof for any of their claims, and publicly attack those that criticize their claims.

Laterz.


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## monkey (Jun 6, 2006)

I do have the tapes of Hatsumi & seminars & Hayes & VanDunk.I do enjoy the way they are presented and detailed.I m wondering How many clans or solid lines exist?Ive seen some break of Hayes like Bussy & the SanFrancisco Group Has thier Grand master.How many authentic lines exist?I dont care of The off shoots just the lines like Iga ect.!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 6, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> I am with HKPhooey.  Somebody tell me about Ninjutsu.  No more of this bickering back and forth.


There are 3 stickies in this forum that cover much of the "foundation" if you will. There is also a sticky in the Traditional Ninjutsu forum that covers what we accept as Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu.


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## monkey (Jun 6, 2006)

Doe- moe  Ill go back & read them>are we allowed to take of how a smoke ball is made & how I was shown to make a cannon from pop can?There are a few things I was shown but dont know if it falls into ninja line wepons or just a poor mans version to explote a young kid with things that look like But not authentic ninja ways.


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## Kreth (Jun 6, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> are we allowed to take of how a smoke ball is made & how I was shown to make a cannon from pop can?


As there were no pop cans during the Sengoku Jidai in Japan, that would be off-topic for this forum.


> There are a few things I was shown but dont know if it falls into ninja line wepons or just a poor mans version to explote a young kid with things that look like But not authentic ninja ways.


Based on what you've said so far, I'd lean towards the second option.


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## Bigshadow (Jun 6, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Heres 2 example of what  were some of the many things they called ninja ways.



:rofl:

opcorn:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 6, 2006)

Monkey, have you thought about a career as a journalist for Vice Magazine?


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## monkey (Jun 6, 2006)

No the teaching came from Joe Denson In Tx. I dont know of his lineage but at the time he called his school the Grand Dragon Martail Arts & gave me a 1st dan Dec 5-1989.


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## HKphooey (Jun 6, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> The question has been asked and answered many times. Search, young padawan.


 
So instead, we will go off on a completely different tangent and talk about whether or not there are ninjas in Korea.


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## HKphooey (Jun 6, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> There are 3 stickies in this forum that cover much of the "foundation" if you will. There is also a sticky in the Traditional Ninjutsu forum that covers what we accept as Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu.


 
Thanks for letting us know where to find the info.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 6, 2006)

HKphooey said:
			
		

> So instead, we will go off on a completely different tangent and talk about whether or not there are ninjas in Korea.


Personally, I liked the debate from many months back on the Russian-Atlantis connection for ninja skills.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 6, 2006)

M@d ninja skillz are SO secret, I have seen people die convusively just _thinking_ about their origins!


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## Kreth (Jun 6, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> M@d ninja skillz are SO secret, I have seen people die convusively just _thinking_ about their origins!


* quietly slips a banana into Egg's back pocket


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 6, 2006)

*What Is Ninjutsu?*
Ninjutsu is a Japanese art, traditionally considered to have evolved in, and been centralized in the Iga region of Japan. The base principles of the art involve an understanding of body mechanics, stealth and nature.  Practitioners were often employed by the nobility as scouts, bodyguards and assassins. Unlike the Hollywood portrayal however, traditional ninja did not wear special uniforms, wield a special straight "ninja sword", or vanish in hugh puffs of smoke.  Currently, many families arts are now considered extinct, with the remaining lines now tracing to Dr. Maasake Hatsumi. Dr. Hatsumi (Bujinkan), Shoto Tanemura (Genbukan) and Fumio Manaka (Jinenkan) are the 3 acknowledged legitimate surviving lines (though both Tanemura and Manaka trace lineage back to Hatsumi, in part).

*What is not representative of the Ninja and Ninjutsu?*
The great majority of Hollywood films, the works of Ashida Kim, HaHa Lung and several other authors.  Anything improperly spelled ninjitsu (note the second "i"). If the line does not trace back to the recognized line preservers, it may not be real ninjutsu. An indepth search on Google will often turn up a great amount of information on these other lines. Contrary to some beliefs, ninjutsu is strictly a Japanese art, with no ties to Korea, China, Russia or Atlantis.


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## heretic888 (Jun 6, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> *What Is Ninjutsu*?


 
I prefer Dale's explanation myself:

". . . ninjutsu is not a 'martial art'. . . It is, however, a collection of historical martial (that is, military and related) skills.

Ninjutsu, as such, really refers to the primary specialties/functions of historic ninja groups: intelligence collection and the associated skills of infiltration, disguise, running agent networks, clandestine communications methods, and use of specialized gear. Fighting or close combat played little part in most of that, unless an agent somehow really 'screwed the pooch' and got caught under suspicious circumstances in some unauthorized place.

The Bujinkan training organization headed by Masaaki Hatsumi contains the teachings of nine old Japanese martial systems, three of which are specifically 'ninjutsu' systems and some others which were associated with ninjutsu as fighting systems used by these people. However, those particular traditional skills I mentioned above are for the most part not formally taught in the Bujinkan today, having been superceded by technological developments. Instead the 'ninja' focus in the Bujinkan is mainly on the fighting methods, which are still applicable.

In terms of combat methods, more of what is actually taught in the Bujinkan comes from systems used by members of the hereditary samurai class, though actually ninja were generally samurai, meaning. .  ."



			
				Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Practitioners were often employed by the nobility as scouts, bodyguards and assassins.


 
Actually, it is my understanding that there is virtually nothing in the way of concrete historical evidence to indicate the Iga/Koga "ninja" were involved in assassinations. It seems to be a product of folklore and superstition, not history.

Laterz.


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## Don Roley (Jun 6, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> No the teaching came from Joe Denson In Tx. I dont know of his lineage but at the time he called his school the Grand Dragon Martail Arts & gave me a 1st dan Dec 5-1989.



Did perhaps he have you fill out your certificate and sign it yourself like people have said about your certificates from Bruce Lee?  

And I am sure that you will not be able to give us a contact number for this guy due to some problem beyond your control.  

Have you ever taken lessons from Bruce Calkins?


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## shesulsa (Jun 6, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> * quietly slips a banana into Egg's back pocket



* grins knowingly ... Kreth THOUGHT he put an authentic banana peel in Egg's pocket ... but the ancient Sulsa skills precluded his attempt and actually substituted a coded electronic banana peel  passing along secret sulsa info to the Karate Egg man *


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 6, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> * grins knowingly ... Kreth THOUGHT he put an authentic banana peel in Egg's pocket ... but the ancient Sulsa skills precluded his attempt and actually substituted a coded electronic banana peel passing along secret sulsa info to the Karate Egg man *


 
Now, THAT'S m@d skillz!


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## Stealth (Jun 6, 2006)

T.Durden said:
			
		

> What Is this style of fighting training? Can someone explain? this isnt like scorpion and sub zero from mortal kombat is it or not? I've never come across anyone in my life to say they actually trained in it so I'd like any and all information on what it is, the schools and all!


 
I usually train invisible and totally silent.  But sometimes I like to practice my teleportation skills.  We aren't much like Sub-Zero or Scorpion except for when I finish fights by tearing peoples heads off or shooting fire from my mouth.


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## kingkong89 (Oct 18, 2006)

the art of ninjitsu or art of invisibility. more less known as shadowhand. It is far from mortal combat's worriors scropion or sub zero. It is an art established in ancient japan  for the samurai that dishonored the code of Bushido. Naturally the ninjas trained to be silent to sneak upon their enemy, as the samurai would let his enemy defend himself first.HICH


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## Kreth (Oct 18, 2006)

kingkong89 said:


> the art of ninjitsu or art of invisibility. more less known as shadowhand. It is far from mortal combat's worriors scropion or sub zero. It is an art established in ancient japan for the samurai that dishonored the code of Bushido. Naturally the ninjas trained to be silent to sneak upon their enemy, as the samurai would let his enemy defend himself first.HICH


In a word, no. In more words, while the "ninja as a down-trodden lower class" is nice romantic fantasy, it isn't true.


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## heretic888 (Oct 18, 2006)

kingkong89 said:


> the art of ninjitsu or art of invisibility.


 
Actually, the proper transliteration is _ninjutsu_.



kingkong89 said:


> more less known as shadowhand.



That term is taken from Haha Lung's books published by Paladin Press. It has no basis in Japanese history or culture. 



kingkong89 said:


> It is far from mortal combat's worriors scropion or sub zero.



Well, at least you got that much right. 



kingkong89 said:


> It is an art established in ancient japan for the samurai that dishonored the code of Bushido.



The "code of Bushido" was an invention of Nitobe Inazo in the 1890's. For references, please see:

_Death, Honor, and Loyalty: The Bushidó Ideal_ by G. Cameron Hurst III

_Bushidó or Bull? A Medieval Historians Perspective on the Imperial Army and the Japanese Warrior Tradition_ by Karl F. Friday



kingkong89 said:


> Naturally the ninjas trained to be silent to sneak upon their enemy, as the samurai would let his enemy defend himself first.HICH



Nope, not even close. Please see:

_Samurai and Fair Fights_ by Ellis Amdur

Laterz.


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## bydand (Oct 18, 2006)

Oh, here we go again.  Wait just a moment please;

:drinkbeeropcorn::drinkbeer

OK, continue.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 18, 2006)

I'VE GOT IT!!!! The tragedy of Maupassant did not consist solely of his disease, it was the realization that he was finished! He understood that his creativity had been decimated and that it was the womanizing, his own way of life, that was the true culprit! It's brilliant! I'm a genius!!!*








*Sorry, folks, OT. I'm just trying to shine a little light on the contrasts here, that's all.


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## sciencemunk (Sep 20, 2009)

Kreth said:


> The search button can be your friend.
> 
> I'll say this again, there is no Korean ninjutsu. There may be some superficial similarities, but by definition, there were no Korean ninja. The Koga tradition was named after the Koga region of Japan.



you should check out "choson ninja" on youtube
claims to be Korean Ninjutsu

please bless me with your opinion of this guy

oss


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## Chris Parker (Sep 21, 2009)

Oh dear Lord...

No, not a chance of us talking about him without going through the fraudbusting rules to find loopholes... but, if you're interested, visit e-budo, particularly this thread: http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?p=479355#post479355


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## kaizasosei (Sep 21, 2009)

From wiki:

Ninjutsu (&#24525;&#34899;?) sometimes used interchangeably with the term ninp&#333; (&#24525;&#27861;?) is the martial art, strategy, and tactics of unconventional warfare and guerrilla warfare as well as the art of espionage purportedly practiced by the shinobi (commonly known outside of Japan as ninja).[1]
While there are several styles of "modern ninjutsu," the historicity and lineage of these styles is disputed. [2]

Etymology

The main character nin (&#24525;?) is composed of two greater characters. The upper character ha or toh (&#20995;?) means "edge of the sword", and the lower character kokoro or shin (&#24515;?) means "heart" or "soul". The character &#20992; means "sword" or "blade," the character &#20995; means "edge of the sword." Together they mean "stealth", "secretness", "endurance", "perseverance", and "patience".[3] Jutsu (&#34899;?) means "art" or "technique". P&#333; (&#27861;?) meaning "knowledge", "principle" when found with the prefix "nin" carries the meaning of ninja arts, higher order of ninjutsu.
[edit]History

Ninjutsu was developed by groups of people mainly from the Iga Province and K&#333;ka, Shiga of Japan.&#12288;Throughout history the shinobi have been seen as assassins, scouts and spies. They are mainly noted for their use of stealth and deception. They have been associated in the public imagination with activities that are considered criminal by modern standards. Throughout history many different schools (ry&#363 have taught their unique versions of ninjutsu. An example of these is the Togakure-ry&#363;. This ry&#363; was developed after a defeated samurai warrior called Daisuke Togakure escaped to the region of Iga. Later he came in contact with the warrior-monk Kain Doshi who taught him a new way of viewing life and the means of survival (ninjutsu).[4]
Ninjutsu was developed as a collection of fundamental survivalist techniques in the warring state of feudal Japan. The ninja used their art to ensure their survival in a time of violent political turmoil. Ninjutsu included methods of gathering information, and techniques of non-detection, avoidance, and misdirection. Ninjutsu can also involve training in disguise, escape, concealment, archery, medicine, explosives, and poisons.[5]
Skills relating to espionage and assassination were highly useful to warring factions in feudal Japan. Because these activities were seen as dishonorable, Japanese warriors hired people who existed below Japan's social classes to perform these tasks. These persons were literally called "non-humans" (&#38750;&#20154; hinin?).[6] At some point the skills of espionage became known collectively as ninjutsu, and the people who specialized in these tasks were called shinobi no mono.
[edit]18 Skills



Masaaki Hatsumi demonstrating his techniques on Mind, Body & Kick *** Moves
In Japanese Ninja J&#363;hakkei, that according to Bujinkan[7] members the eighteen disciplines (j&#363;hakkei < j&#363;hachi-kei) were first stated in the scrolls of Togakure-ry&#363;. Subsequently they became definitive for all ninjutsu schools by providing total training of the warrior in various fighting arts and agarter.
Ninja j&#363;hakkei was often studied along with Bugei J&#363;happan (the "18 samurai fighting art skills"). Though some are used in the same way by both samurai and ninja, other techniques were used differently by the two groups.
The 18 disciplines are:[8]
Seishin-teki ky&#333;k&#333; (spiritual refinement)
B&#333;jutsu (stick and staff fighting)
Shurikenjutsu (throwing shuriken)
S&#333;jutsu (spear fighting)
Naginatajutsu (naginata fighting)
Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama fighting)
Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics and explosives)
Hens&#333;jutsu (disguise and impersonation)
Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)
Bajutsu (horsemanship)
Sui-ren (water training)
B&#333;ryaku (tactics)
Ch&#333;h&#333; (espionage)
Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)
Tenmon (meteorology)
Chi-mon (geography)
Taijutsu (Unarmed Combat)
Kenjutsu (sword fighting)


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## Hudson69 (Sep 24, 2009)

Ninjutsu is a name that can be applied to a number of martial art systems that combine weapons, empty hand combat skills with a wide variety of field skills, usually centered around stealth.  Some are newer, some are older, some have a lineage, some do not.


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## Kajowaraku (Sep 24, 2009)

It seems people get two different questions mixed up in this thread:

"What is ninjutsu?" 

and 

"What sort of arts are often referred to as "ninjutsu"?"

People inventing their own system and retroactively applying a name with historic roots to it does not make what they do ninjutsu, it means they and theirs call it ninjutsu. Because it resembles what they (want to) do, because it sounds nice, because it sells or simply because they want it to be so. 

Let me use a different -largely hypothetical- example: if I, versed in western swordmanship, would decide to use japanese katana because there's a bigger market for such arts (or whatever reason). I'd figure a sword is sword, how different can it be? Let's assume I kick *** with a bastardsword, apply similar concepts to a katana and call my style: somefancyjapanesename-ryu kenjutsu, of which I -naturally- make myself daisupersoke grandmasterguru. 

The techniques probably won't be half bad (despite obvious differences and flaws and such, but that's not the point). And even though this sort of selfpromotion is frowned up (with good reason imho), let's just assume it actually turns out to be a decent system (again, hypothetically). 

Still, despite it all that: people would raise eyebrows if I were to advertise it as "traditional samurai swordmanship techniques". OR even funnier "scientifically enhanced modern traditional samurai fighting techniques". It's hilarious when you do it with samurai, still with ninjutsu it appears to be more the rule than the exception, with new, long extinct, lost and forgotten traditional schools emerging every other year.

very awkward that...


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## kaizasosei (Sep 24, 2009)

Very true.  I think that is actually a very realistic hypothesis.   Perhaps many styles of martial arts or all arts and crafts in general have been created in this way.  At least they always seem to favour exotic lands and exotically foreign ideas.  So it is completely possible for some ancient martial arts to have been created through such a kind of syncretism.

Nowadays, some people in japan sometimes argue that japanese culture is becoming stagnant.  Back in the day, a kimono or wafuku was rather usual atire but now it's 'traditional' .  Back in the day the clothing was evolving...more alive.  Now all the arts are set in stone.  Which is a good thing in many ways and a sign of perfection, but on the other hand, they are becoming more like relics rather than normal parts of life.


So perhaps, creation is just creation and all the arts created that are viable will survive and possibly become a 'tradition' of a certain culture in a certain time.  Those that are doomed for failure will fail.  Perhaps some bad arts could survive and legit skills can also become lost, only waiting to be rediscovered .


j


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## Kajowaraku (Sep 24, 2009)

I agree many arts conceivably started out like this, but that's not what i'm trying to say here. Point is even if applying bastardsword techniques to fighting with a katana centuries after either of them were actually used in warfare and battle could, maybe, perhaps result in a more or less decent, coherent system: but it could NEVER be bushido or samurai swordmanship. At best it would be a working adaption of interpretations of centuries old, scattered manuscripts on western swordfighting, applied to a completely different sword altogether and by grace of using a sword of a different cultural context being renamed to fit the new tool.

Same goes for ninjutsu... if you want to learn stealth: join the rangers or force recon. A hapkidoka wearing a black keikogi throwing metal chopsticks at a cardboard stickfigure is not a korean ninja. It's a hapkidoka throwing metal chopsticks at a cardboard stickfigure saying he's doing korean ninjutsu (just an example, and in no way intended as an attack on hapkido).


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## Hudson69 (Sep 25, 2009)

What is in a name?  Decent system or bad system, good instructor or bad instructor it really does not matter.  Just like in my earlier post it is what it is no matter what label you put on it.

Some peopel say modern Special Forces soldiers are the true modern "ninja" and at the same time you will get BBT or Genbukan people taking both sides by saying yes or "heck" no, or staying neutral.  

What do you want?


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## jks9199 (Sep 25, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> What is in a name?  Decent system or bad system, good instructor or bad instructor it really does not matter.  Just like in my earlier post it is what it is no matter what label you put on it.
> 
> Some peopel say modern Special Forces soldiers are the true modern "ninja" and at the same time you will get BBT or Genbukan people taking both sides by saying yes or "heck" no, or staying neutral.
> 
> What do you want?


I think that "ninjutsu" as the name of a martial art refers to specific disciplines that developed in Japan.  I don't think you can make the argument you seem to be trying to with any better justification than calling any martial arts "karate" or "kung fu."  Or saying that an artist who paints murals is no different than a professional room painter.  After all, they're both just putting paint on the wall, right?  Both require skills and even a bit of talent...  But they're not the same thing, are they?


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## Hudson69 (Sep 26, 2009)

Kreth said:


> I don't know anything about arts originating in Koga, Korea. I do know that they would not be Japanese arts, and thus are off-topic for the Ninjutsu forums.


 
This is a general discussion for ninjutsu so location, Japan or Korea, should be an option.  I have heard of the Sulsa but that is it, just heard of them.


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## jks9199 (Sep 26, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> This is a general discussion for ninjutsu so location, Japan or Korea, should be an option.  I have heard of the Sulsa but that is it, just heard of them.


It might just be me... but I find that this forum is under the headings *Japanese Martial Arts* and *Ninjutsu - General Discussion*.  Sorta implies that maybe it's supposed to be about arts from that particular group of islands, no?


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## Hudson69 (Sep 26, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I think that "ninjutsu" as the name of a martial art refers to specific disciplines that developed in Japan. I don't think you can make the argument you seem to be trying to with any better justification than calling any martial arts "karate" or "kung fu." Or saying that an artist who paints murals is no different than a professional room painter. After all, they're both just putting paint on the wall, right? Both require skills and even a bit of talent... But they're not the same thing, are they?


 
That is throwing a wide swath on a limited venue.  To Shin Do and the Shadows of Iga could be considered a ninjutsu, there is a group in Ohio that bases their system off of ninjutsu and, I think, calls it ninjutsu (not Mr. Hayes) and they are in America now even though they originated in Japan.

If that is the argument then ninjutsu is simply a derivative of some Chinese fighting arts that might have come from India.

All I am saying is "It is what it is."  You can get someone who says that they are teaching "modern" ninjutsu and it might have no, some or completely based off of thier experience in one of the x-kans and it might be really good, average or the worst training someone could get.  To get worked up on what it is called seems a little childish, just ignore it and not give someone the satisfaction of explaining how it cant be, shouldn't be or that good, they are right or something else.

Ninjutsu is just a word/name I could say something like "Soke Hatsumi is the head of the New World Order" and if the voices in my head say he is then you are not going to convince me I am wrong.

Dont get me wrong, to have pride in something you have accomplished or see an organization you are a member of as a good thing is a good thing. But please dont get worked up over someone comparing something to something else or using a label for one thing on another that a majority would see as being unfounded.

In a month, a year, a decade it will be forgotten 99.9% of the time unless there is something special about it.

Just my .02


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## Chris Parker (Sep 27, 2009)

Very simply, Hudson69, Ninjutsu refers to a set of skills and philosophies that developed in particular regions in Japan between 700AD and 1800AD (approx). These areas of knowledge may indeed have been influenced by knowledge brought from other lands, but what was brought was not Ninjutsu, Ninjutsu did not exist in these other lands, and Ninjutsu is, be definition, Japanese. No two ways about it, I'm afaid.

As to organisations that are not Japanese but teach Ninjutsu or use the name Ninjutsu to describe what it is that they do, if there is no connection back to the acknowledged skills and philosophies developed in Japan and refered to as Ninjutsu, then it is simply not Ninjutsu. It cannot by definition be Ninjutsu. So if the organisation is one such as To Shin Do, who trace themselves through Hayes Sensei back to Hatsumi Sensei (and prior to that, Tanemura Sensei), or my organisation, which traces itself through Wayne Roy back to Hatsumi Sensei, and prior to that, Nagato Sensei, that's okay. It is still a Japanese art, in origin and heart, with a different emphasis in application. 

But Ninjutsu is by definition Japanese, and that is all there is.


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## Hudson69 (Oct 28, 2009)

?


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Oct 30, 2009)

Basically what he's saying is that To Shin Do IS Ninjutsu because it traces its origins back to the original arts from Japan. If we're going to use the "different name, different location" argument, then none of the X-kans are Ninjutsu either, because the Bujinkan did not exist until Hatsumi became the Soke and after O-Sensei passed away. The Bujinkan was not founded in the Iga or Koga region of Japan, it was founded in the Hombu dojo, but the arts it comprised of WERE founded in the specific regions, but were most likely not named Ninjutsu. More likely, these styles were named X-ryu (region or family name) and ninjutsu was later applied because the techniques were used by ninja (who were, most likely, dubbed ninja post-mortem) If a "ninja" used an art such as Aikijutsu, would that make Aikijutsu Ninjutsu? No, it would not.

Sorry to go off on a tangent, but the point I'm trying to make is that your argument that a rose by any other name would smell just as sweet is not applicable when we're talking about historical arts.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 31, 2009)

Right. Its like no matter how many decals a Pinto Owner changes on their car... its still not a Mustang. They can CALL it a Mustang, believe its a Mustang, put Mustang logos all over it... its still just a Pinto.

They are both cars.  Both Fords.  But fundamentally they ARE different.


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## jks9199 (Oct 31, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Right. Its like no matter how many decals a Pinto Owner changes on their car... its still not a Mustang. They can CALL it a Mustang, believe its a Mustang, put Mustang logos all over it... its still just a Pinto.
> 
> They are both cars.  Both Fords.  But fundamentally they ARE different.


A better example might have been a buddy of mine's 'Vette.

*CHE*vette. 

The several x-kans are ninjutsu systems; they have direct and maintained ties to the "mother" art in the Bujinkan, though they've gone their own ways.  Toshindo is in the same family, in my opinion.  I might liken it to something like a chef doing an Asian-inspired dish, using a lot of American ingredients in place of the traditional stuff.  It's recognizably related, but clearly pretty different, too.

But you can't take a dish of fried chicken and call it tempura.  Yeah, they've got some commonalities -- but they ain't even close!

If you claim it's ninjutsu, it's got to have a pretty clear and strong connection to the arts developed in Japan.  The ninja don't have a lock on stealth, or spy tactics.  And simply including stealth/spy tactics/what-have-you in what you do doesn't make it ninjutsu...


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## Draven (Oct 31, 2009)

T.Durden said:


> What Is this style of fighting training? Can someone explain?


 
Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu is a system of guerrilla and commando warfare & espionage training used by the samurai and various other groups from mercenaries & bandits to peasants and priests. No system of ninjutsu is proven dispite internet claims and excuses. Hatsumi has never proven his ninjutsu line, but and neither have anyone else, for that matter. Takamatsu was even called a fraud much like Ashida Kim and Frank Dux are today so go figure where you would like to place your faith in a Ninjitsu lineage. 

It should also be noted that the last known Koga Ninja (Seiko Fujita) was no more the Soke of all Koga styles then Hatsumi is the head of all Iga styles. Seiko was only the Soke of Wada-family Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. That said, all that matters (least to me) is effectiveness, so if it works use it and don't worry about what its called. However, I wouldn't call a kung-fu system ninjutsu even if was used by a ninja-like group such as the Mushin Naran or Lin Kuei. Course there is also an interesting question about hybred styles of ninjitsu where it becomes mixed with other systems. 

Would you call ninjutsu, karate, judo and kung-fu sololy one of those arts or could it be defined as all of the above? 

I learned a style of ninjitsu which came from a Japanese fellow, whose father moved to Canda after WW2. According to him many ninjutsu styles origionated as this (abridged general history); peasants were conscripted in military service to make the bulk of an armies foot soldiers. They were conscripted and not professional soldiers but were lead by Ashi Garu who were profession soldiers in peace time but not quite Samurai. Many of these peasants were organized into guerrilla groups to resist invasion. Several Samurai were recorded to also be Ninja & many bandits were proclaimed to be ninja simply by their level of successfulness. Ninjutsu as a commando, guerrilla and/or espionage system was a form of warfare often studied by samurai and a collection of techniques invented by other groups. Generally speaking on the Bujutsu subset styles were recorded historically & to be honest for all I know he could be BSing me. It works and I don't care about history as much as I care about effectiveness...


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