# Martial arts creates Violence? Say Yes or No



## pulsescarborough (Mar 29, 2018)

Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?


----------



## Reedone816 (Mar 29, 2018)

They created controlled violence, which is not unruly.

Sent from my BV8000Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 29, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?



I don't think it creates it but it makes people better at it


----------



## pulsescarborough (Mar 29, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I don't think it creates it but it makes people better at it



I know but some think that it creates violence


----------



## pulsescarborough (Mar 29, 2018)

Reedone816 said:


> They created controlled violence, which is not unruly.
> 
> Sent from my BV8000Pro using Tapatalk





I completely agree with you, Thank You so much for your kind reply.


----------



## sinthetik_mistik (Mar 29, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> I know but some think that it creates violence



i mean people want to be violent they go into the martial arts gym with that intent. I don't think a peaceful person would learn martial arts and then become a violent person. if he does then I think something is wrong with his martial arts gym. but maybe there is some factor i'm overlooking idk


----------



## hoshin1600 (Mar 29, 2018)

This sounds like something a 10 year old would say or a politician, someone with a hidden agenda.


----------



## VPT (Mar 29, 2018)

"Yes or No"


----------



## oftheherd1 (Mar 29, 2018)

VPT said:


> "Yes or No"



Yes or no.  Do you still beat your wife?


----------



## Headhunter (Mar 29, 2018)

Of course not. People who've never done martial arts a day in their life can be extremely violence


----------



## VPT (Mar 29, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes or no.  Do you still beat your wife?



A monk asked Zhaozhou Congshen, a Chinese Zen master (known as _Jōshū_ in Japanese), "Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?" Zhaozhou answered, "無".


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?


Martial Arts is the study and application of controlled violence for any number of applications ranging from personal development, exercise, spiritual enlightenment, discipline, socializing, social engagement, historic studies, experimental archeology, and hurting people and breaking their toys.

At a basic level, Martial Arts doesn't "create" violence, but it does recognize that violence is an integral part of the human condition.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2018)

sinthetik_mistik said:


> I don't think it creates it but it makes people better at it


Enter the debate about which of the different martial arts are actually "effective."







Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson (Mar 29, 2018)

VPT said:


> "Yes or No"


False dilemma - Wikipedia

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## VPT (Mar 29, 2018)

Is my joke getting really that old?


----------



## hoshin1600 (Mar 29, 2018)




----------



## Martial D (Mar 29, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?


Sort of. In the same way a vaccine contains the virus it's created to inoculate against.


----------



## skribs (Mar 29, 2018)

No.

Our animalistic natures create violence.  Martial arts just teaches us to do it better, but at the same time gives us an outlet to let out our aggression and gives us the discipline to control ourselves.

Martial Arts, like any other weapon, cannot be blamed for the violence in the human nature.


----------



## Balrog (Mar 29, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?


It does not create it.  But it makes us better at coping with violence that others create.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 29, 2018)

Martial arts doesn't create violence. I think what you mean to ask is whether it promotes violence. In that case, it does...when appropriate. MMA matches can be violent, and most people would agree that's an appropriate context for it. Defending yourself from a physical attack (physical violence) often requires the use of violence, and most people would agree that's an appropriate use of violence.

It is almost certain there are some truly violent people - people who use violence inappropriately - who are trained martial artists. The martial arts didn't make them that way, so far as anyone can tell.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 29, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?



 No.....violent people create violence.


----------



## CB Jones (Mar 29, 2018)

Asking if martial arts create violence is like asking if bacon creates breakfast.

Bacon is simply an ingredient that a chef uses.  Just like martial arts is an ingredient that a person can choose to use


----------



## Steve (Mar 29, 2018)

Violence is inherent to martial arts.  The root of the word "violence" is the same as for "viola" and "violin", which is from Middle English root "violenca" and the Old English 'Vitula" from which we also get the modern term "vitriol." 

Not many know that this shared root for "violence" and stringed, musical instruments are where the term "Martial Art" comes from, meaning "harmful music."  It's not an accident that the sound of the bow being drawn across the strings on a musical instrument sound like the screams of someone in pain. 

Or it's possible I just made all that up.  Who knows?


----------



## oftheherd1 (Mar 29, 2018)

Steve said:


> Violence is inherent to martial arts.  The root of the word "violence" is the same as for "viola" and "violin", which is from Middle English root "violenca" and the Old English 'Vitula" from which we also get the modern term "vitriol."
> 
> Not many know that this shared root for "violence" and stringed, musical instruments are where the term "Martial Art" comes from, meaning "harmful music."  It's not an accident that *the sound of the bow being drawn across the strings on a musical instrument sound like the screams of someone in pain. *
> 
> Or it's possible I just made all that up.  Who knows?



Well that's how it normally sounded when I played the violin.  I guess that relates to why I like martial arts?


----------



## Buka (Mar 29, 2018)

_Do You think Martial arts creates Violence?_

Only if you're an arsehole.


----------



## Anarax (Mar 29, 2018)

Martial Arts on it's own doesn't make people violent. Concerning MA and it's connection to violence, that's more on the character or lack there of for the individual and the Instructor. MA can help with controlling irrational violent tendencies and it does in a lot of cases. However; I've seen horrible schools that encourage violent and all out barbaric behavior in training/sparring. IMO these schools usually only retain students that already had behavioral issues, thus I don't think the MA itself is to blame. I also think that these types are environments are a reflection of the Instructor rather than MA itself.  

There are MA Instructors that don't fully take into account the ramifications of teaching MA to those who are already dangerous. I've seen some instructors excuse grotesque behavior, but I've seen others throw students out of their schools.

I think it's more a matter of both the instructor's and student's character rather than MA.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sort of. In the same way a vaccine contains the virus it's created to inoculate against.



There have been some awesome analogies already, but this one takes the cake, love it!



skribs said:


> No.
> 
> Our animalistic natures create violence.  Martial arts just teaches us to do it better, but at the same time gives us an outlet to let out our aggression and gives us the discipline to control ourselves.
> 
> Martial Arts, like any other weapon, cannot be blamed for the violence in the human nature.



Yeah great point. It's like the old question of guns creating violence. No, the gun is actually neutral, it's the person wielding it that creates the situation/consequence.

It's the animalistic nature which spurs forth violence. Violence in this context being wanting to truly, truly hurt or kill someone.

It's actually a great question, because that's what it looks like when viewing or participating in martial arts classes, there are violent techniques being taught. But the intention behind it is where this all lies. Don't quote me on this, but I don't really think many take up martial arts to be violent as such... As in to purposely use it to go out and hurt people with it. Could be wrong! Obviously training gyms vary, and clearly some places are designed to train people for full contact and ring/cage-fighting competition etc. But seems different from the violence the OP is talking about.

All depends on the context of what you mean by 'violence' hey!


----------



## pdg (Mar 30, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> There have been some awesome analogies already, but this one takes the cake, love it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, MA can be viewed as a tool that can be used for violence (like a knife, or a gun, or a pillow), but the tool doesn't initiate the violence.

What can though is the relationship with the tool, or the way that relationship is conditioned.

If you are a cobra kai student, that type of  training can make you violent - but that's not the art itself at fault, it's the relationship conditioning...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 30, 2018)

Martial arts* creates* Violence? Say Yes or No

No


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2018)

No. I wouldn't even say martial art causes people to be more violent. It's helped me and at least a few other people I know and on this board (cough cough @Ironbear24 cough cough ) become less violent


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 30, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?


Yes and No.
Like so many things in this world, the answer is rarely an either/or


----------



## Danny T (Mar 30, 2018)

I don't think martial arts creates violence though it may use violence. 
Many practitioners at the higher levels can actually prevent violence by knowing and understanding what to do in a potential violent situation. I believe myself to be a violent person though I may be very willing to use violence if the situation deems it appropriate for my or my loved ones personal protection.


----------



## _Simon_ (Mar 30, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes, MA can be viewed as a tool that can be used for violence (like a knife, or a gun, or a pillow), but the tool doesn't initiate the violence.
> 
> What can though is the relationship with the tool, or the way that relationship is conditioned.
> 
> If you are a cobra kai student, that type of  training can make you violent - but that's not the art itself at fault, it's the relationship conditioning...


YES! Exactly, if we all just take a look at Cobra Kai, question resolved ;D


----------



## Ironbear24 (Mar 31, 2018)

No.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Mar 31, 2018)

No.


----------



## pulsescarborough (Apr 5, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> No.....violent people create violence.



Totally agree


----------



## pulsescarborough (Apr 5, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Asking if martial arts create violence is like asking if bacon creates breakfast.
> 
> Bacon is simply an ingredient that a chef uses.  Just like martial arts is an ingredient that a person can choose to use



I didn't get you exactly


----------



## pulsescarborough (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve said:


> Violence is inherent to martial arts.  The root of the word "violence" is the same as for "viola" and "violin", which is from Middle English root "violenca" and the Old English 'Vitula" from which we also get the modern term "vitriol."
> 
> Not many know that this shared root for "violence" and stringed, musical instruments are where the term "Martial Art" comes from, meaning "harmful music."  It's not an accident that the sound of the bow being drawn across the strings on a musical instrument sound like the screams of someone in pain.
> 
> Or it's possible I just made all that up.  Who knows?




I barely like things, but the way you explained it changed my opinion on martial arts


----------



## pulsescarborough (Apr 5, 2018)

Reedone816 said:


> They created controlled violence, which is not unruly.
> 
> Sent from my BV8000Pro using  Tapatalk


But violence is violence. Does it matter whether it is controlled or not?


----------



## pulsescarborough (Apr 5, 2018)

VPT said:


> Is my joke getting really that old?




Yeah


----------



## Headhunter (Apr 5, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> But violence is violence. Does it matter whether it is controlled or not?


The majority of martial artists aren't violent because it gives you a safe outlet for aggression. It's better to hit a bag than a person


----------



## Reedone816 (Apr 5, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> But violence is violence. Does it matter whether it is controlled or not?


Well, controlled violence means, violence that is following the law/custom.
Or know when to start and when to stop.
Is constructive when learning martial art.
Police restraining criminal.
People do sparring.
Etc.

Sent from my BV8000Pro using Tapatalk


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 5, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> I didn't get you exactly



Violence exists with or without MA.  It is not the root of violence but solely a tool that some violent people might use.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2018)

I think the problem here is that people think violence is bad.  And it's because of this idea that all violence is bad which is skewing everyone's perspective of "Do You think Martial arts creates Violence?"

Not all violence is bad and in more cases than not, violence is actually healthy.  There's violence in soccer(futbol), basketball, boxing, MMA, Fencing, Point Sparring, Martial Arts Training (conditioning and bruising).  There's violence in Lacrosse, muay thai, wrestling (of all types).  Even young kids use violence in play.

Here's one definition of Violence "the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy"
Here's another definition of Violence "intense, turbulent, or furious and often destructive action or force"

Does martial arts create violence.  Yes it can, No it doesn't always have to.

I'm not sure why so many Martial Artist run away from violence, when their martial arts system teaches violent techniques.   Violence by itself is not bad or negative.  If you have ever gone fishing then you have created violence.  If you have ever had to physically defend yourself from an attack.  Then you have created violence.

Embrace violence and understand it for what it is.  That violence alone is neither good nor bad by default.  It is an action.  It's the context of what we do with that action which determines the value of violence that we created.  

This is the balance one should have with their Martial Arts training.   Just because you train violence doesn't mean you commit violence.  Just because you create violence doesn't mean you do so in a negative way.  I've personally have had more injuries and bruises from martial arts training than I have ever had from real fights in the street.  The bruises that I got from training didn't come from me being "non-violent."    Just my 70 cent perspective.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 5, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> But violence is violence. Does it matter whether it is controlled or not?


Yes


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> But violence is violence. Does it matter whether it is controlled or not?


It terms of violence it's probably more about the context in which the violence exists.  We can look at this from the perspective of a gun.  Does it matter if I get shot by accident or on purpose.  A gun shot is still a gun shot.  This is true but the context in which I got shot is not.  

When a father spanks his child, is that the same violence that the father would use in an effort to protect his child from being attacked by another adult? 

Is violence done out of love the same as violence done out of hate?  Context is everything.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's violence in soccer(futbol),



There isn't supposed to be violence in football. 





JowGaWolf said:


> Is violence done out of love the same as violence done out of hate?



If you love someone you would not use violence against them full stop.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> There isn't supposed to be violence in football.


ha ha ha.  There isn't supposed to be acting either lol.  



Tez3 said:


> If you love someone you would not use violence against them full stop.


Like many things in life, things aren't black in white and that context is everything.   There's a difference between disciplining a child and beating up a spouse.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's a difference between disciplining a child and beating up a spouse.




No, there isn't. If you wouldn't discipline an adult by hitting then why do it to a child. There's never an excuse for using violence on a child.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> If you wouldn't discipline an adult by hitting then why do it to a child.


ummm.  who said I wouldn't discipline an adult by hitting them?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> ummm.  who said I wouldn't discipline an adult by hitting them?




then you would be committing the criminal offence of assault.


----------



## Anarax (Apr 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Is violence done out of love the same as violence done out of hate? Context is everything.



I think that's the key in this conversation. There's been a shift in the spanking culture, at least in the US. If you look at the older generations that were spanked, a lot of them are more mannered than the younger generation. However,  I think people make a false causation between a decrease in spanking and the increase in rowdy kids. Personally, I think it has more to do with parenting as a whole. Many parents used to teach values to kids and used spanking as a disciplinary method when necessary. Today I think the values are where it's lacking the most. A lot of parents today just spank without instilling the values the previous generation did and that's where I think a lot of the problems stem from.

What I've witnessed is a lot of parents spank their children out of frustration more than out of a means of disciplining them. It's a horrific thing, but I think some parents have convinced themselves that they are only doing it to teach their child, but they fail to realize the underlying issue of it being a release for the parents frustration. 

It's also important to note how many experts say your shouldn't spank your children. I think people get defensive when it's discussed, especially if they were spanked as a child. It's not to say they were raised by bad parents, just that more information is available today than there used to be. I've never understood parents who brag about how they spank their kids. The pride in their voice is indicative to a certain amount of satisfaction they get from doing so, which I think is troublesome.


----------



## Steve (Apr 5, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> ummm.  who said I wouldn't discipline an adult by hitting them?


For the record, I don't think there's any reason to smack anyone. 

That said, this was a funny response.


----------



## Steve (Apr 5, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I think that's the key in this conversation. There's been a shift in the spanking culture, at least in the US. If you look at the older generations that were spanked, a lot of them are more mannered than the younger generation. However,  I think people make a false causation between a decrease in spanking and the increase in rowdy kids. Personally, I think it has more to do with parenting as a whole. Many parents used to teach values to kids and used spanking as a disciplinary method when necessary. Today I think the values are where it's lacking the most. A lot of parents today just spank without instilling the values the previous generation did and that's where I think a lot of the problems stem from.
> 
> What I've witnessed is a lot of parents spank their children out of frustration more than out of a means of disciplining them. It's a horrific thing, but I think some parents have convinced themselves that they are only doing it to teach their child, but they fail to realize the underlying issue of it being a release for the parents frustration.
> 
> It's also important to note how many experts say your shouldn't spank your children. I think people get defensive when it's discussed, especially if they were spanked as a child. It's not to say they were raised by bad parents, just that more information is available today than there used to be. I've never understood parents who brag about how they spank their kids. The pride in their voice is indicative to a certain amount of satisfaction they get from doing so, which I think is troublesome.


My experience (and I'm very interested if anyone has any links to studies and such) is that the millennials who were largely parented by boomers, were coddled.  The new crop of kids I've seen, who were born in the late 90s and parented by Gen-Xers (mainly) are pretty damned cool.  I've seen them called iGen or Gen Z, but they're just now beginning to enter into the workforce, and my experience with them so far has been terrific.  The kids from Parkland are a great example of what I'm talking about.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Today I think the values are where it's lacking the most.




Actually from what I've seen recently a great many young Americans have superb values and I would be very proud of them. They are the future and it looks a lot brighter now.


----------



## pdg (Apr 5, 2018)

How is disciplining a child being defined here?

If it's using the open hand equivalent of 5 lashes after finding out they've done wrong, no, I don't do that. I don't agree with it either.

I have however used contact as a means to instill discipline...

Context:

We've never required child safety catches on our kitchen cupboards, because a swift wrist slap a couple of times meant they knew not to venture in there - even now, being 9 and nearly 6, they will happily help themselves to plates/bowls/cups and the like, but know not to go in the doors and drawers we tell them not to.

Walking to school in the morning, they'll walk/skip/jog along the path and stop and wait at the side of the road. The first couple of times they tried to wriggle out of hand grip and run out on the road they got a slap. Now I can trust them and not need to hold hands to stop them. I believe that has contributed to them being two of very few children at their school who will do as they're told. (Compare that to the woman down the road who slaps her kids all the time, I think they're desensitised to the extent they just don't listen and do what they want, running all over the road on the way to school while she shouts and screams and pulls and slaps, then they carry on anyway - or another parent I've seen where her kid was eating dirt, she was all "oh Johnny, don't do that" in the stereotypical whiney voice, and her kid just laughed and carried on.)

Up to a certain age (non specific, it's individual) I believe kids don't have the mental capacity to take heed of a lecture (linguistic limitations for one thing), but are fully capable of comprehending when asked "Did that slap hurt a bit? What do you think it'd feel like if someone hit you with a car?" And even before that, in the kitchen cupboard example, conditioning the response "open door = sharp slap" only takes a couple of instances and doesn't need continual reinforcement.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 5, 2018)

pdg said:


> We've never required child safety catches on our kitchen cupboards, because a swift wrist slap a couple of times meant they knew not to venture in there



So slapping them teaches them not to touch something..... really? I've always found a sharp stern 'no' does the job, well it did with mine and the hundreds of kids I've had to do that with. Causing pain doesn't actually teach much to children or animals other than their parents hurt them when they want them to learn something. Of course it worked, if someone punched you in the face every time you did something wrong when you were learning to drive for example you'd learn PDQ.

Between Scouting, Guiding and martial arts I managed to 'discipline' hundreds maybe even a thousand kids without slapping on of them including my own two. I've also trained horses and puppies without hitting them, amazing isn't it. Even more amazing is that there's many more people like me.


----------



## Steve (Apr 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Actually from what I've seen recently a great many young Americans have superb values and I would be very proud of them. They are the future and it looks a lot brighter now.


EXACTLY!


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> then you would be committing the criminal offence of assault.


Depends on where you live.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 5, 2018)

Steve said:


> For the record, I don't think there's any reason to smack anyone.
> 
> That said, this was a funny response.


Just being honest.  lol.  Someone told me that God doesn't make mistakes, so here I am lol.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Depends on where you live.




Yeah in other places it's called domestic abuse.


----------



## Anarax (Apr 6, 2018)

Steve said:


> My experience (and I'm very interested if anyone has any links to studies and such) is that the millennials who were largely parented by boomers, were coddled. The new crop of kids I've seen, who were born in the late 90s and parented by Gen-Xers (mainly) are pretty damned cool. I've seen them called iGen or Gen Z, but they're just now beginning to enter into the workforce, and my experience with them so far has been terrific. The kids from Parkland are a great example of what I'm talking about


Our experiences differ. I've noticed a lack of respect and etiquette in children/teenagers. It's more surprising when the parents are with them when they misbehave and yet they do nothing about it. Regardless, my point is spanking is viewed as the end all and be all of parenting. Spanking without teaching values nor responsibility will create problems later on. If you do wish to spank, it should be recognized as only one part of parenting. Using it a release for frustration is another dynamic that I think a lot of parents fall into.



Tez3 said:


> Actually from what I've seen recently a great many young Americans have superb values and I would be very proud of them. They are the future and it looks a lot brighter now.


I'm not exactly sure on the brighter future part, I think we'll get by just fine, but it's more the values I was referring to. A society/culture can strive and excel regardless of values. We're making great strides in technology, medicine, etc. It's not the accomplishments I question, but more the "old school" values that I'm seeing less of. I'm not saying they're aren't exceptions, but I think a lot of children in US aren't being taught good values.


----------



## pdg (Apr 6, 2018)

Anarax said:


> my point is spanking is viewed as the end all and be all of parenting. Spanking without teaching values nor responsibility will create problems later on. If you do wish to spank, it should be recognized as only one part of parenting. Using it a release for frustration is another dynamic that I think a lot of parents fall into.



As a frustration release it's utterly unjustifiable imo.

Apart from the taps (single, not forceful slap) I've mentioned I can't say I've ever felt that physical punishment was necessary at all.

Unless you count the times when I'm pad holding for my son and he drops his guard - then he'll get a pad on his head (oh no, teaching with violence )


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I've noticed a lack of respect and etiquette in children/teenagers.




There is written on a wall in Egypt a diatribe from a man complaining about the youth of his day, how they have no manners, no respect for their elders and they are dissolute. He add they were never like that in his day. The 'writing' is hieroglyphs and are 5 thousand years old, every generation has moaned about the next in this way and yet every generation has turned out fine. People look back at their youth through rose tinted glasses and complain about the children of today, always missing the bad bits of their  own youth and seeing only the bad of todays.

The young people of America have shown the world quite recently that their values aren't that of many of their elders, they are shining a light in the darkness for the whole world to see. There are values some of their elders cling to that do not make for a good society or even a successful one, the young people show that there is another way as young people usually do. There are an example to people everywhere.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> There is written on a wall in Egypt a diatribe from a man complaining about the youth of his day, how they have no manners, no respect for their elders and they are dissolute. He add they were never like that in his day. The 'writing' is hieroglyphs and are 5 thousand years old, every generation has moaned about the next in this way and yet every generation has turned out fine. People look back at their youth through rose tinted glasses and complain about the children of today, always missing the bad bits of their  own youth and seeing only the bad of todays.
> 
> The young people of America have shown the world quite recently that their values aren't that of many of their elders, they are shining a light in the darkness for the whole world to see. There are values some of their elders cling to that do not make for a good society or even a successful one, the young people show that there is another way as young people usually do. There are an example to people everywhere.


I’ve had this discussion with groups of managers when “dealing with millennials “ comes up. Yes, there are some general characteristics of that group, but much of the complaint about them is inter-generational angst.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2018)

The word 'millennials' means very little really, there's always been the 'entitled' people, the ones who think the world owes them a living, there's the rich who think the world owes them servitude and respect and there's always those who work hard and carry on with life. The difference now is that the media 'names' the groups, and it likes to put out articles exaggerating the so called 'differences' between groups.

'Values' what does that word mean? Basically nothing, what do we value? Money, wealth, power all gained by underhand dealing and cheating seems to be something valued by some, do the young people of today ascribe to those values, I sincerely hope not, they don't seem to, many young people are brave and speak out, bless them for it, I'm thinking of the young gymnasts here going against the values shown by their controlling authorities. 'Old school' values shown as in 'don't rock the boat, your elders know best'. They didn't know best and boy did the gymnasts rock the boat so hard even when some were blaming them saying they brought it on themselves because of what they wear ( yes really)

Young people should be rebels, should take on the world, they should be showing the way forward after all they will be there, we won't.

This from 2001, long enough ago that the teens then are most likely parents themselves and out in the workplace now.
http://www.frameworksinstitute.org/assets/files/PDF/youth_public_perceptions.pdf


----------



## JowGaWolf (Apr 7, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> There is written on a wall in Egypt a diatribe from a man complaining about the youth of his day, how they have no manners, no respect for their elders and they are dissolute. He add they were never like that in his day. The 'writing' is hieroglyphs and are 5 thousand years old, every generation has moaned about the next in this way and yet every generation has turned out fine. People look back at their youth through rose tinted glasses and complain about the children of today, always missing the bad bits of their  own youth and seeing only the bad of todays.
> 
> The young people of America have shown the world quite recently that their values aren't that of many of their elders, they are shining a light in the darkness for the whole world to see. There are values some of their elders cling to that do not make for a good society or even a successful one, the young people show that there is another way as young people usually do. There are an example to people everywhere.


All I know is that they stood up when others did not.  The ones in the U.S. who are protesting are doing the right thing and are filling in where there is a lack of leadership.  This seems to have always been the role of the youth.  Through out the ages it has been the youth to bring about good change and throughout the ages it is often the elders who sell the snake oil and make unrealistic promises.


----------



## lklawson (Apr 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> There is written on a wall in Egypt a diatribe from a man complaining about the youth of his day, how they have no manners, no respect for their elders and they are dissolute. He add they were never like that in his day. The 'writing' is hieroglyphs and are 5 thousand years old, every generation has moaned about the next in this way and yet every generation has turned out fine. People look back at their youth through rose tinted glasses and complain about the children of today, always missing the bad bits of their  own youth and seeing only the bad of todays.
> 
> The young people of America have shown the world quite recently that their values aren't that of many of their elders, they are shining a light in the darkness for the whole world to see. There are values some of their elders cling to that do not make for a good society or even a successful one, the young people show that there is another way as young people usually do. There are an example to people everywhere.









Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 10, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk




We haven't had that here. How many people in the USA? I don't think you can judge any group by looking at what less than 54 people did. _"According to AAPCC data, in 2016 and 2017, poison control centers handled thirty-nine and fifty-three cases of intentional exposures"
_
We do have this though.
Young people are savvier and more generous when giving to charity at Christmas - GOV.UK

http://metro.co.uk/2018/02/18/young...-depression-by-leaving-kind-messages-7321818/

Meet the inspirational young people who devote their time to helping others

About young carers | Carers Trust

etc etc.

and apart from sports which thousands of young people do, we have the youth organisations which collectively have millions of members.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 10, 2018)

Not at all. It's just that we as a species haven't developed. Thousands of years ago as cavemen we whacked each other on the head with clubs - now we just shoot each other and break each other's limbs with deadly techniques. Big evolution.


----------



## CB Jones (Apr 10, 2018)

I see no problem with spanking as long as it is done for the right reasons and not excessive.

There is no right way or wrong way.

Just different ways.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 10, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I see no problem with spanking as long as it is done for the right reasons and not excessive.
> 
> There is no right way or wrong way.
> 
> Just different ways.


I was brought up with full on smacks to the face. I'm 16 right now and I turned out pretty good, according to my family. Since I am Slavic (Bulgarian), slapping is super common in the culture for upbringing. The slaps and their severity depend on how bad it is. The worst is when I tell a lie, no matter how little.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 10, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I see no problem with spanking as long as it is done for the right reasons and not excessive.
> 
> There is no right way or wrong way.
> 
> Just different ways.




I just don't see any right reasons for smacking a child, nor do I see the point of it. ( I say smacking because in the UK  'spanking' is a consensual sex act). If I can discipline hundreds of other people's kids perfectly well without smacking why would I ever need to smack my own children, which I never have and at 40 and 31 they are both brilliant human beings. Nobody _needs_ to smack.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 10, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> I was brought up with full on smacks to the face. I'm 16 right now and I turned out pretty good, according to my family. Since I am Slavic (Bulgarian), slapping is super common in the culture for upbringing. The slaps and their severity depend on how bad it is. The worst is when I tell a lie, no matter how little.




That is horrendous quite honestly.


----------



## Headhunter (Apr 10, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I see no problem with spanking as long as it is done for the right reasons and not excessive.
> 
> There is no right way or wrong way.
> 
> Just different ways.


You see no problem with physically assaulting a child? And even spanking that can still give kids impressions that touching someone's backside is a normal thing so what happens when little Timmy 10 year old starts spanking girls because he thinks it's a normal thing to do


----------



## Steve (Apr 10, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> I see no problem with spanking as long as it is done for the right reasons and not excessive.
> 
> There is no right way or wrong way.
> 
> Just different ways.


There are some wrong ways.  But not as many as people think.


----------



## pdg (Apr 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I say smacking because in the UK 'spanking' is a consensual sex act



Dual meaning really.

A disciplinary spanking is different to a disciplinary smack (at least it is down south).


----------



## Steve (Apr 10, 2018)

I have two adult kids and a nine year old, and haven’t needed to spank anyone yet.  I don’t judge folks who do.  Well, maybe a little, but I also consider raising kids to be a results oriented gig.   As long as they leave your care happy, healthy, well adjusted and ready to enter into adulthood, you did it right.

But there is ample evidence that the spare the rod mentality isn’t as effective as positive reinforcement.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> Dual meaning really.
> 
> A disciplinary spanking is different to a disciplinary smack (at least it is down south).




Yeah, whatever, I would go off to the QM and draw out a sense of humour, mate, if I were you.

Spanking is only justified when it's a consensual sex act.


----------



## pdg (Apr 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I would go off to the QM and draw out a sense of humour, mate, if I were you.



I would, but I don't trust their lead times.

24 years now I've been waiting for the left handed 38v sky hooks and box of electronic lift I ordered during my avionics apprenticeship...


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 10, 2018)

pdg said:


> would, but I don't trust their lead times.



That makes no sense.


----------



## pdg (Apr 10, 2018)

Lead time:

The time between .... ordering a product and recieving it.


Considering I have an outstanding order 24 years old, it's unlikely either of us will live long enough to take advantage of a s.o.h., forum, for the use in.


----------



## Buka (Apr 10, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Yeah, whatever, I would go off to the QM and draw out a sense of humour, mate, if I were you.
> 
> Spanking is only justified when it's a consensual sex act.



It's why they make mink mittens.....hmmm, maybe that should be a poem.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 10, 2018)

I really cannot believe how many people here have not only strayed from the topic, including myself, but the fact that someone having different yet *effective *parenting methods can trigger martial artists. To train martial arts is also to respect what others have to say and strive to improve your virtues in life, not try to drill your opinion into others through an online forum about how abusive something is without even understanding or having any experience of what I am talking about. I am very thankful for how I was raised and if you disagree with how *my* parents brought up *their* child *without ever leaving a bruise or a scratch* or anything serious of the sort, you can go blow it because you dishonour me and yourself.


----------



## Steve (Apr 10, 2018)

Buka said:


> It's why they make mink mittens.....hmmm, maybe that should be a poem.
> 
> View attachment 21387


Ooh, you must have watched 007 recently.   Creepiest use of mink gloves ever.


----------



## Steve (Apr 10, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> I really cannot believe how many people here have not only strayed from the topic, including myself, but the fact that someone having different yet *effective *parenting methods can trigger martial artists. To train martial arts is also to respect what others have to say and strive to improve your virtues in life, not try to drill your opinion into others through an online forum about how abusive something is without even understanding or having any experience of what I am talking about. I am very thankful for how I was raised and if you disagree with how *my* parents brought up *their* child *without ever leaving a bruise or a scratch* or anything serious of the sort, you can go blow it because you dishonour me and yourself.


i don’t blame you for your parents slapping you as a child.  I do think it’s barbaric, but it’s not the child’s fault.   Now, if you’re defending it and slap your kids... yeah.  That’s not okay, whether they leave physical evidence or not.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 11, 2018)

pdg said:


> Lead time:
> 
> The time between .... ordering a product and recieving it.
> 
> ...




Well that's civvies for you. You don't go to the QMs unless they have what you need.




IvanTheBrick said:


> I really cannot believe how many people here have not only strayed from the topic, including myself, but the fact that someone having different yet *effective *parenting methods can trigger martial artists. To train martial arts is also to respect what others have to say and strive to improve your virtues in life, not try to drill your opinion into others through an online forum about how abusive something is without even understanding or having any experience of what I am talking about. I am very thankful for how I was raised and if you disagree with how *my* parents brought up *their* child *without ever leaving a bruise or a scratch* or anything serious of the sort, you can go blow it because you dishonour me and yourself.



Sweetie, no one is 'triggered'. You aren't 'dishonoured' in the least you are having a minor tantrum.

Oh and slapping kids across the face is disgraceful, get over yourself. It obviously didn't teach you as much as you think it did other than you will go on to slap your children's faces. I do disagree with your parents and your tantrum has gone a bit of a way to prove me right.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 11, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Well that's civvies for you. You don't go to the QMs unless they have what you need.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For starters. I am not planning on having kids, and "*sweetie" *this wasn't a tantrum. You taint what I say and believe that I am being abused. Yet I am sure you have never even heard of the difference between discipline and abuse. So "*sweetie" *please go learn the difference because you are making a jester of yourself. If I was being abused, I wouldn't be openly writing this on the internet; ignorance is not bliss


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 11, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> For starters. I am not planning on having kids, and "*sweetie" *this wasn't a tantrum. You taint what I say and believe that I am being abused. Yet I am sure you have never even heard of the difference between discipline and abuse. So "*sweetie" *please go learn the difference because you are making a jester of yourself. If I was being abused, I wouldn't be openly writing this on the internet; ignorance is not bliss




You are a child, that's not an insult but a plain fact based on what you've told us your age is. You are from an Eastern European country, again another fact from your own post. You have a lot to learn, luckily you also have, potentially a long time to learn it. Striking children across the face in the way you described it is considered abuse in the civilised world. When parents who do smack their children discipline their children by smacking it's not across the face. I think they would be equally concerned as those of us who don't smack. No one condones hitting children across the face.

As for being abused, you have a lot to learn about what abuse is and the dangers of hitting someone around the head repeatedly.

I think you dived in this conversation telling us how hard hits across the face were for you normal hoping it would make you sound tough in the world of martial arts. It doesn't.


----------



## kravmaga1 (Apr 16, 2018)

Martial arts do not create violence. But martial arts teach people how to defense themselves against any violent criminal. As any type of wrong and difficult situation may come at any unexpected time, one should always be prepared for self protection. Learning martial arts makes a person strong, fit and confident.


----------



## gucia6 (Apr 16, 2018)

IMO it does not.

But I guess it depends on person's mentality.
My instructors philosophy is 'if you can - do not engage, if you can run, but if you have to - defend yourself'. But there probably is enough idiots that would learn martial arts and then go cause trouble.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 21, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> You are a child, that's not an insult but a plain fact based on what you've told us your age is. You are from an Eastern European country, again another fact from your own post. You have a lot to learn, luckily you also have, potentially a long time to learn it. Striking children across the face in the way you described it is considered abuse in the civilised world. When parents who do smack their children discipline their children by smacking it's not across the face. I think they would be equally concerned as those of us who don't smack. No one condones hitting children across the face.
> 
> As for being abused, you have a lot to learn about what abuse is and the dangers of hitting someone around the head repeatedly.
> 
> I think you dived in this conversation telling us how hard hits across the face were for you normal hoping it would make you sound tough in the world of martial arts. It doesn't.


My God could you please come up with a more convincing argument than my age, "*sweetie*"? You really think I am attempting to sound tough even though my username is literally IvanTheBrick. Smfh. I have seen the difference between those who have and have not been disciplined. I guess you haven't but it's huge, and so is the difference between abuse and discipline. I would expect an experience martial artist such as yourself to understand where I am coming from.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 22, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> My God could you please come up with a more convincing argument than my age, "*sweetie*"? You really think I am attempting to sound tough even though my username is literally IvanTheBrick. Smfh. I have seen the difference between those who have and have not been disciplined. I guess you haven't but it's huge, and so is the difference between abuse and discipline. I would expect an experience martial artist such as yourself to understand where I am coming from.



*It's very simple, hitting children hard across the face is not disciplining them, it's abusing them. *
Perhaps when you've had more experience of the world, you will realise this. I have half a century more experience than you do, have brought up children, seen and dealt with children and adults who have been abused. I've seen casualties of bombs and shootings, I've dealt with more than you can imagine, thankfully, at your age. No one ever, ever endorsed belting children hard across the face as discipline, at least no one who actually thought about what they were saying and doing. 

As for your name...it means nothing to me, what's it supposed to mean to you?


----------



## Ryan_ (Apr 22, 2018)

No. None of the people I have practised with would start violence.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 22, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> *It's very simple, hitting children hard across the face is not disciplining them, it's abusing them. *
> Perhaps when you've had more experience of the world, you will realise this. I have half a century more experience than you do, have brought up children, seen and dealt with children and adults who have been abused. I've seen casualties of bombs and shootings, I've dealt with more than you can imagine, thankfully, at your age. No one ever, ever endorsed belting children hard across the face as discipline, at least no one who actually thought about what they were saying and doing.
> 
> As for your name...it means nothing to me, what's it supposed to mean to you?


My name is meant to be satire for pretending to be tough. Either way, I too have seen the difference between a child being abused and a child being disciplined. I live in the UK, and my therapist seemed to be fine with the way I was brought up. And no, the fact that I had a therapist did not prove anything, I went to therapy to try to stop some hyperactivity ticks.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> Lead time:
> 
> The time between .... ordering a product and recieving it.
> 
> ...


I can easily imagine seeing that item listed in a government inventory. Not for the FBI, mind you.


----------



## wingchun100 (Apr 22, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?



No.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> My name is meant to be satire for pretending to be tough. Either way, I too have seen the difference between a child being abused and a child being disciplined. I live in the UK, and my therapist seemed to be fine with the way I was brought up. And no, the fact that I had a therapist did not prove anything, I went to therapy to try to stop some hyperactivity ticks.




Actually if you live in the UK you would know that we use the expression as thick as a brick a lot. What does Thick as a brick mean? - Definition of Thick as a brick - Thick as a brick stands for dumb; really dull; slow witted. By AcronymsAndSlang.com
Therapists  do not judge, not there job to tell you whether you've been brought up properly or not.


----------



## pdg (Apr 23, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Actually if you live in the UK you would know that we use the expression as thick as a brick a lot. What does Thick as a brick mean? - Definition of Thick as a brick - Thick as a brick stands for dumb; really dull; slow witted. By AcronymsAndSlang.com
> Therapists  do not judge, not there job to tell you whether you've been brought up properly or not.



Depends where you are in the UK.

I've heard "thick as a brick" used more by those of a northern heritage, whereas the further south/southwest you go the more likely it is you'll have "thick as two short planks".


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Depends where you are in the UK.
> 
> I've heard "thick as a brick" used more by those of a northern heritage, whereas the further south/southwest you go the more likely it is you'll have "thick as two short planks".



I'm a Southerner trapped in the North..............................


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 23, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Actually if you live in the UK you would know that we use the expression as thick as a brick a lot. What does Thick as a brick mean? - Definition of Thick as a brick - Thick as a brick stands for dumb; really dull; slow witted. By AcronymsAndSlang.com
> Therapists  do not judge, not there job to tell you whether you've been brought up properly or not.


True, but if therapists perceive you be abused, they are meant to tell the authorities. And I don't know what the word brick has anything to do with the convo at this point...


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 23, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> True, but if therapists perceive you be abused, they are meant to tell the authorities.




How do you know they haven't? At 16+ social services don't have anything to do with you, you are considered 'adult'.



IvanTheBrick said:


> And I don't know what the word brick has anything to do with the convo at this point...




You brought it up.......


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 24, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> How do you know they haven't? At 16+ social services don't have anything to do with you, you are considered 'adult'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My therapy was when I was 13. Thus it was not abused. There is a fine line between discipline and abuse. Perhaps you just don't see it which is understandable, but it really depends on your upbringing.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 24, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> but it really depends on your upbringing.




It certainly does. Let me ask you this what would you think if you saw an adult smacking a small child across the face hard? 

How many people think belting a small child across the face is acceptable?


----------



## Hanshi (Apr 24, 2018)

pulsescarborough said:


> Do You think  Martial arts creates Violence?






NO!


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 25, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> It certainly does. Let me ask you this what would you think if you saw an adult smacking a small child across the face hard?
> 
> How many people think belting a small child across the face is acceptable?


Depends on what you mean by a small child rly. Me and my sibling weren't slapped below the age of 6


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Depends on what you mean by a small child rly. Me and my sibling weren't slapped below the age of 6



Makes no difference. If you belt an adult *hard across the face* you are committing an assault, it's not different if it's a child.

Who would belt a 6/7 year old child across the face? A 10/11 year old?


----------



## IvanTheBrick (Apr 25, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Makes no difference. If you belt an adult *hard across the face* you are committing an assault, it's not different if it's a child.
> 
> Who would belt a 6/7 year old child across the face? A 10/11 year old?


Again, how many times do I have to repeat this? It's called discipline and no one said anything about belting, I said slapping. Secondly slapping an adult is different to slapping your child since you have a *responsibility *to discipline him as long as it does not go too far. Slapping is far away from *too far.* I don't know how many iterations this argument will play through; it's like talking to a brick wall. I give up.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 25, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Again, how many times do I have to repeat this? It's called discipline and no one said anything about belting, I said slapping. Secondly slapping an adult is different to slapping your child since you have a *responsibility *to discipline him as long as it does not go too far. Slapping is far away from *too far.* I don't know how many iterations this argument will play through; it's like talking to a brick wall. I give up.




Shall I quote to you what you said?



IvanTheBrick said:


> I was brought up with *full on* smacks to the face.


----------



## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Makes no difference. If you belt an adult *hard across the face* you are committing an assault, it's not different if it's a child.



Can I clarify a thing or two based on this (and previous comments you've made in this thread) please?

Is a gentle slap across the face more acceptable than a hard slap when used for discipline / making a point / getting them to listen and follow instructions?

Is any form of physical contact (causing pain or performed with threat of causing pain) acceptable for the reasons I cited in the previous paragraph or would any such action (including something like "if you don't do xyz I'm going to cause pain" - so a threat of physicality) fall into the realm of abuse/assault?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Is a gentle slap across the face more acceptable than a hard slap when used for discipline / making a point / getting them to listen and follow instructions?




Why would anyone slap a child across the face full stop?



pdg said:


> Is any form of physical contact (causing pain or performed with threat of causing pain) acceptable for the reasons I cited in the previous paragraph or would any such action (including something like "if you don't do xyz I'm going to cause pain" - so a threat of physicality) fall into the realm of abuse/assault?




Why is causing pain to children acceptable to some? Never mind the law, is it morally acceptable to cause pain to a child on the pretext of 'teaching' them? We, at least in civilised countries, stopped the physical punishment of adults many years ago yet many still think it's acceptable to physically chastise a child why do you think that is.

Let me ask you a question, is it acceptable to you to hit a child full on across the face? Is it fine by you that a small child ( albeit one over 6) is hit hard across the face as a punishment? because you seem to be avoiding that question.


----------



## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Let me ask you a question, is it acceptable to you to hit a child full on across the face? Is it fine by you that a small child ( albeit one over 6) is hit hard across the face as a punishment? because you seem to be avoiding that question.



Nobody asked me that question, so by definition I have done nothing to avoid it. I didn't contribute to that part of the discussion.

So, in light of the fact you have now directed that question at me, for the first time, I shall happily answer with no avoidance.

No. Acceptable is something that it is not, irrespective of age.

A tap (literally not hard enough to mark) on the wrist to grab attention and prevent further injury, that's acceptable to me - irrespective of age.

As for:



Tez3 said:


> We, at least in civilised countries



I was born and raised in the UK. Whether that's a civilised country is a different debate.



So, any chance of not avoiding the question I asked you?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Nobody asked me that question, so by definition I have done nothing to avoid it. I didn't contribute to that part of the discussion.



Wrong answer. I asked everyone.


Tez3 said:


> How many people think belting a small child across the face is acceptable?





pdg said:


> So, any chance of not avoiding the question I asked you?


I answered, you didn't like my opinion, which is fine but don't say I didn't answer.


----------



## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I answered, you didn't like my opinion, which is fine but don't say I didn't answer



Actually, you didn't answer.

Here it is again:



pdg said:


> Can I clarify a thing or two based on this (and previous comments you've made in this thread) please?
> 
> Is a gentle slap across the face more acceptable than a hard slap when used for discipline / making a point / getting them to listen and follow instructions?
> 
> *Is any form of physical contact (causing pain or performed with threat of causing pain) acceptable for the reasons I cited in the previous paragraph or would any such action (including something like "if you don't do xyz I'm going to cause pain" - so a threat of physicality) fall into the realm of abuse/assault?*



I'm most interested in the second part (I've even made it bold), and it's not necessarily in the context of use of force against a child - it's against any person, in any situation.


I'll even reword it.

Is any physical contact against another person (of any age) causing, or threatening to cause, pain acceptable as a means to discipline / make a point / get them to listen to instructions ever acceptable?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Actually, you didn't answer.
> 
> Here it is again:
> 
> ...




Good grief, shall I get the crayon out for you, really, you can't extrapolate my answer to that from the actual plainly written words which spell out that no I don't find it acceptable to lay hands on anyone for the purposes of disciplining/making them listen/make a point/make them listen. If the only way you can make your point or discipline someone is by 'laying hands' on them then it's a pretty bad state of affairs. It's not just a case of not being acceptable, it's a case of if you get to the point when you have to do that to someone you will have lost all respect people had for you and they will not listen, you will make them resent you, they will not follow your orders. Why would anyone think that is a good way to work?

I have had two jobs that required being able to lead people, I have been trained extensively in how to lead and at no point is the use of physical force advocated as a successful tactic to lead. Far from it. One of those jobs required an ability ( taught/ingrained/or both) to de-escalate situations, something that isn't going to happen if you lay hands on them first. If they put hands on your then it's a different situation but that's not disciplining them/making them listen/making your point.

As a child I was never smacked, my parents after my mother's experience of torture and violence could not bring themselves to ever justify even a slight tap as way of 'discipline' ( or anything actually), we did however learn not to touch things, to behave etc without being smacked. My children, now in their 40s and 30s were also not smacked, they are well adjusted, well rounded human beings successful in their careers and private lives with no criminal records or anti social tendencies so I can say hand on heart my way works.  Not smacking doesn't mean no discipline, it doesn't mean children run wild ( why do people who smack assume those children who aren't smacked run amok or have no manners?) it means you work to teach your children instead on flipping a hand out to smack.

Consensual violence is a whole different thing and something I happen to enjoy.


----------



## pdg (Apr 26, 2018)

Thank you for answering (even accounting for the slipping in of a thinly veiled insult with the "crayon" comment, but hey, I've had worse).



Tez3 said:


> As a child I was never smacked, my parents after my mother's experience of torture and violence could not bring themselves to ever justify even a slight tap as way of 'discipline' ( or anything actually), we did however learn not to touch things, to behave etc without being smacked. My children, now in their 40s and 30s were also not smacked, they are well adjusted, well rounded human beings successful in their careers and private lives with no criminal records or anti social tendencies so I can say hand on heart my way works. Not smacking doesn't mean no discipline, it doesn't mean children run wild ( why do people who smack assume those children who aren't smacked run amok or have no manners?) it means you work to teach your children instead on flipping a hand out to smack



I never said your way doesn't work, if you read my previous comments carefully you should see that I said not smacking in conjunction with lack of discipline (i.e. being a pathetic whiner) doesn't work. I believe I also said that smacking for the wrong reasons (i.e. in retaliation) doesn't work either.

I got sparingly smacked as a child, very rarely twice for the same thing and never for fun or to relieve frustration.

I'm 40ish, I have no criminal record, I'm married (with two children I never fail to get complimented on for their behaviour) to the girl I got together with when I was 18, I run my own business that is moderately successful...

Am I a poster child for demonstrating that smacking never works and only serves to damage the lives of the 'victim'?


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Thank you for answering (even accounting for the slipping in of a thinly veiled insult with the "crayon" comment, but hey, I've had worse).
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I actually haven't said it damages children as such but really there is no logic to smacking children to get them to learn or to discipline them, it is a pointless exercise which actually demeans us as human beings. Why do we need to hurt children to make them learn, why do we need to hurt children to 'discipline' them? If we wish to evolve into a peaceful species, perhaps a lofty ideal but one worth pursuing, we need to look at how we raise our children and frankly causing them pain as an aid to learning should be stopped.

You mention the crayon comment yet you constantly seek to undermine everything I say, not just on this thread, with funny little comments designed I assume to try and put me in my place considering your views on females ( oh I haven't forgotten your rant about women ) .... so no apologies for the crayon comment ( not thinly veiled btw but in your face) at all especially when you tell me 'if I read it carefully' etc etc etc. Oh I did, I can assure you.
You are a fan of hyperbole it seems and talk of things in extremis using words like 'victim' 'abuse' etc. You also put words into my mouth which is a foolish thing to do, you will embarrass yourself again.


----------



## _Simon_ (Apr 26, 2018)

Let's talk about sexism.


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Let's talk about sexism.




Let's not, I don't want to see another horrible rant about women thank you very much. We are martial artists here, some are instructors some new students but all with a common love of martial arts. There is never a need to rant about either political subjects or perceived slights against a specific group. As mentioned on another thread there is a sister group if people want to go ballistic on politics.


----------



## _Simon_ (Apr 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Let's not, I don't want to see another horrible rant about women thank you very much. We are martial artists here, some are instructors some new students but all with a common love of martial arts. There is never a need to rant about either political subjects or perceived slights against a specific group. As mentioned on another thread there is a sister group if people want to go ballistic on politics.


Hehe ah yeah just joking, was more a tongue-in-cheek commentary on noticing a few threads tending to go in that direction hehe, totally joking and trying to lighten the thread a bit . I also would love the forum to be a place of welcoming and enjoyment of discussion about martial arts for the experienced and newcomers, and not intimidating for them either, all good  (I'll make sure to use emoticons next time hehe)


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe ah yeah just joking, was more a tongue-in-cheek commentary on noticing a few threads tending to go in that direction hehe, totally joking and trying to lighten the thread a bit . I also would love the forum to be a place of welcoming and enjoyment of discussion about martial arts for the experienced and newcomers, and not intimidating for them either, all good  (I'll make sure to use emoticons next time hehe)




No worries as you'd say ( probably!)

I'm debating with myself at the moment about posting up something that is being investigated at the moment and is currently going the rounds on social media. My problem is that I want to post up what has been found so far but_ I don't want discussion on the actual 'politics' of it,_ rather I want ways to warn and help girls who have been affected by these people. I was absolutely horrified to find out one of our Guides has had the same experience as described ( sorry it's vague at the moment) locally, now I want ways to combat this and to warn the other girls without scaring them. I want something I can tell them they can do that will work for 12/13/14 year olds non martial arts girls in a street situation. Telling them to do martial arts isn't the answer which is what some will suggest.


----------



## pdg (Apr 27, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> No worries as you'd say ( probably!)
> 
> I'm debating with myself at the moment about posting up something that is being investigated at the moment and is currently going the rounds on social media. My problem is that I want to post up what has been found so far but_ I don't want discussion on the actual 'politics' of it,_ rather I want ways to warn and help girls who have been affected by these people. I was absolutely horrified to find out one of our Guides has had the same experience as described ( sorry it's vague at the moment) locally, now I want ways to combat this and to warn the other girls without scaring them. I want something I can tell them they can do that will work for 12/13/14 year olds non martial arts girls in a street situation. Telling them to do martial arts isn't the answer which is what some will suggest.



Post it, I'm sure politics can be avoided (or dealt with through moderation).


----------



## Tez3 (Apr 27, 2018)

pdg said:


> Post it, I'm sure politics can be avoided (or dealt with through moderation).



I think I will, later have to go out at the moment. It doesn't make pleasant reading and is worrying.


----------



## IvanTheBrick (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Shall I quote to you what you said?


Full on smacks are fine? Muh, I'm acc getting so triggered lol just because you know nothing about something doesn't mean it's bad.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

IvanTheBrick said:


> Full on smacks are fine? Muh, I'm acc getting so triggered lol just because you know nothing about something doesn't mean it's bad.




Then why have you started a thread about boxing and 'hits in the face' impacting on intelligence?


----------

