# Opinions on these books.



## Jag (May 22, 2006)

I just bought the following books, and while waiting for them to arrive I'm curious if anyone here has any opinions on them, good or bad.

Ninja Shadowhand: The Art of Invisibility

The Spiritual Practices of the Ninja : Mastering the Four Gates to Freedom

Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster : Revised and Updated Edition

Stick Fighting (Bushido--The Way of the Warrior)

The Mystic Arts of the Ninja

 Throwing the Ninja Star of Death <== I'm particularly interested in opinions on this book. I was able to get a copy for $50 - but I can't seem to find any other copies for less than $200! Is it really that good, or what's the deal?

Thanks.


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## Don Roley (May 22, 2006)

Do you have a teacher? I ask because I can't imagine Bujinkan practicioner getting some of those books like the ninja shadowhand one. And the ones by Hatsumi are probably not going to be much help without being in the Bujinkan. The Mystic arts one is not bad, but I got rid of my copy a few years ago to make space for others.

If you are in the Bujinkan, then the stick fighting book is a must. The other one co-authored by him is a good addition. Hayes' book is not bad. Everything else you wasted your money on.


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## Jag (May 22, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Do you have a teacher?



Unfortunately no. There aren't Dojos near me at the moment, so I'm kinda forced into teaching myself for now. I'm planning on moving within the year or two, so I will hopefully find someplace with a Dojo in range. For now though I'm just trying to learn what I can myself, even though I'm aware of how not recommended that is overall.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I ask because I can't imagine Bujinkan practicioner getting some of those books like the ninja shadowhand one. And the ones by Hatsumi are probably not going to be much help without being in the Bujinkan.



Hm, weall perhaps they will at least prove to be an informative read.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> The Mystic arts one is not bad, but I got rid of my copy a few years ago to make space for others.



I see. At least that's one good choice then. lol



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you are in the Bujinkan, then the stick fighting book is a must.



I'm not entirely sure what "Bujinkan" is really, I hadn't heard about till reading threads on this forum. I'm VERY interested in learning Bo, Jo, & Hanbo techniques though.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> The other one co-authored by him is a good addition. Hayes' book is not bad.



I kind of wish I had come here first before buying any of the books, since I'm more interested in Traditional Ninjutsu, and didn't realize that Hayes was more of modernized alternative kinda thing...



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Everything else you wasted your money on.



Ahh well, the curse of the n00b I guess. On average I only spent $20 per book, so it's not too big of a loss.


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## Hand Sword (May 22, 2006)

I assume you picked the books that appealed to your liking, therefore, you didn't waste your money on anything. Your interest is your interest, and knowledge is knowledge. All of it is relevant, and can be made to work for you, if you put in the effort. It's the same with any art, and the books associated with it.


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## Don Roley (May 22, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I assume you picked the books that appealed to your liking, therefore, you didn't waste your money on anything. Your interest is your interest, and knowledge is knowledge. All of it is relevant, and can be made to work for you, if you put in the effort. It's the same with any art, and the books associated with it.



I have to disagree. Anything by Ashida Kim or Haha Lung, Ron Duncan, etc is a waste of time and money. I can't say there is _any_ knowledge in that Shadowhand book, etc. You may enjoy the read, but if you were looking for _factual information_ you wasted your money. And you would be better off reading something honestly fictional if you want to be entertained.


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## Jag (May 22, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Anything by Ashida Kim or Haha Lung, Ron Duncan, etc is a waste of time and money.



Indeed. A number of the books I bought have some reviews that say stuff like "Forget Hatsumi, get the Ahsida Kim books instead!" and that's just pure nonsense. I saw a book called "The Art of Strangulation - By Haha Lung" and I just couldn't stop laughing long enough to even consider buying it. lol



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> I can't say there is _any_ knowledge in that Shadowhand book, etc. You may enjoy the read, but if you were looking for _factual information_ you wasted your money. And you would be better off reading something honestly fictional if you want to be entertained.



Hm, do you have any recommendations for future book purchases?


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## Carol (May 22, 2006)

One place to start is to do some thorough investigation in to your state's weapons laws.  Many states outlaw shuriken/throwning stars completely, for example, some require a speicial permit, others do not regulate them at all.  Withouth a qualified instructor, there isn't much sense buying books about nunchaku if you live in a state that strictly forbids anyone to keep nunchaku in their posession.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (May 22, 2006)

Jag said:
			
		

> Hm, do you have any recommendations for future book purchases?


 
If you can get a hold of one, by all means get yourself a copy of "Understand? Good. Play!" by Ben Cole. In my opinion it's the best book written about the Bujinkan.


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## Don Roley (May 23, 2006)

Jag said:
			
		

> Hm, do you have any recommendations for future book purchases?



I am sure plenty of people here do. Nimravus just gave one. I happen to think that particular one is better suited for someone who has been part of the training for a while.

You might want to get books on stretching and things like Feldenkries. If you try to learn taijutsu from books and videos you can pick up habits that you are not aware of and a teacher won't be there to catch. But being more limber and aware of your body movements can't harm your progress until you find a teacher IMO.


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## Jag (May 23, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you try to learn taijutsu from books and videos you can pick up habits that you are not aware of and a teacher won't be there to catch. But being more limber and aware of your body movements can't harm your progress until you find a teacher IMO.



Indeed. I recently did another search for a Dojo somewhere in my area, and somehow I must have missed this one on my first attempt. It's well within distance of my house, and if anyone has any opinions on it please let me know. I will try to call them up sometime this week and ask some questions, any recommendations on what I should ask & what they should say would be nice to.
http://www.ninpiden.com/index.html

Thanks.


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## mrhnau (May 23, 2006)

Jag said:
			
		

> Indeed. I recently did another search for a Dojo somewhere in my area, and somehow I must have missed this one on my first attempt. It's well within distance of my house, and if anyone has any opinions on it please let me know. I will try to call them up sometime this week and ask some questions, any recommendations on what I should ask & what they should say would be nice to.
> http://www.ninpiden.com/index.html
> 
> Thanks.



Just finished perusing the site... I don't see if he is in the Bujinkan or some other group. I also don't see what rank he is, or any of his other instructors. I'd probably want a bit more information before joining up, but thats just me... I'd just want to be sure he did not adjust his karate background based on a few books he has read and teach that...

Personally, I've not heard of him nor seen him. however, I've not been in the art for too long, so thats not a true indicator


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## Kreth (May 23, 2006)

Jag said:
			
		

> Indeed. I recently did another search for a Dojo somewhere in my area, and somehow I must have missed this one on my first attempt. It's well within distance of my house, and if anyone has any opinions on it please let me know. I will try to call them up sometime this week and ask some questions, any recommendations on what I should ask & what they should say would be nice to.
> http://www.ninpiden.com/index.html
> 
> Thanks.


The instructor calls himself Kyoshi and fails to mention where he learned "Ninpo Tai Jutsu." Don't bother...


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## Jag (May 23, 2006)

Well, here's the questions I asked him and what he said in response:

1) Are you a part of the Bujinkan or some other group?
1. I am not bujinkan. I was Genbukan for 17 years. Now I am on my own

2) What is your current Rank? 
2. My current rank in 5th degree in Ninpo with a Kyoshi title and 5th  degree in Jujutsu

3) Who were some of your instructors? 
3. I have had many instructors because I am trained in many different arts  but as far as Ninpo goes my instructors have been Sensei Chadwick Minge from  California and then for many years I was a direct student of Tanemura Soke  from Japan.

4) Where did you learn "Ninpo Tai Jutsu"? 
4. I learned Ninpo from the source. Tanemura Soke in Japan.


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

This guy does not seem to lie, which would be the big thing for me. But there are several things that make me urge caution. And that is aside from the fact that it looks like he has actually taken more karate than what I see taught in Japan as ninjutsu to teach to his students.

First of all, it looks like this guy has created his own style with him as the head. That never goes over well with me. It would seem that he has stopped training in an art that is in Japan and is busy runnning his own thing. I have been training in this art before he has, living in Japan for a good part of that time, and I still find new things, new insights to learn and practice. Some things I find on my own, but a lot of it comes from those more skilled than me pointing out things to me. And this guy turned his back on that at some point and is now the head master of something he created.

Secondly, he told you who he trained with when you asked, but I could not find anything on his web site. The folks I respect remain a bit humble and are quick to give credit to the teachers that made them what they are. To not give that credit easily rubs me wrong. Especially since it kind fo discourages potential students from thinking they could just learn from the source that taught him.

Lastly, this guy is all about the money. I can tell. He makes his living off of teaching and runs things like a business, not a labor of love and art. He even has a "long distance" training course with videos. Money is good, take a look at my avatar. But all the Bujinkan teachers in Japan have real jobs and do not need students to live. My teacher has a few students and that is enough for him. He does not have to cater to the demands of students who want the latest martial arts fashion. He can tell people to leave and does not fear them walking out if they do not like what he says is in their best interest. If students never come back because of the intensity and taking it to the edge (and that has happened) then he has no worries of putting food on his families table.

This guy can't say that.

I would not train with this guy. I can't reccomend you do either.


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

This just in from a person whose honor and knowledge I trust without question but who does not want to have his name associated with this.



> I don't want to get involved with the "opinion on these books" thread, but Randy stated he was in the Genbukan for 17 years, which is wrong.
> 
> He started around 1989 with Minge which at the time was with the Genbukan. Later, Minge left in 1994 and started his American Ninpo Bugei  Federation. Randy was under Minge until at least the end of Oct 23 1999 (source - archive.org). So at the most he was in the Genbukan for 12 years. % of those years he was with Minge's organization, American Ninpo Bugei  Federation.
> 
> If you want to post this please don't use my name



The thing is, I remember hearing about Minge in relation to the Frank Dux mess. That puts Minge in Los Angeles as his home. According to the Ninpiden site, the teacher opened up a dojo in Colorado in 1992. I do not know where he lived prior to that, but it looks like at most he was only three years into training before he was in another state from the guy who was his instructor.

And it is only from 1989 to 1994 (5 years) that he would have been associated with the Genbukan if I read the above right. After that, he could not have gone to Japan to train with Tanemura or probably trained at Genbukan seminars.

I have seen people in the Bujinkan try things like that. They do their own thing and don't associate with many other Bujinkan members. They may have one photo of them with Hatsumi taken at a tai kai with 500 people there and talk on about being a 'personal student' of Hatsumi when Hatsumi would not even recognize him.

This is probably not as bad as that- in fact I doubt it. But it does look like he is making it sound like he had more training time on the mat under a teacher's instruction than reality. And that is another thing that would make me cautious.


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## Jag (May 25, 2006)

First off I just want to thank you Don for giving such an in-depth response to my various questions. 

As for the Dojo in question, I hear what your saying loud and clear, though I fear that circumstance plays much to large a part in this area that I would like. This is the only  Dojo that's particularly close to my location, and really the only Dojo within a 50 Mile radius that I would even entertain (other options are "Warrior Quest" & "US Sword Artists", etc.).

I would think that with even as much training as we can agree he has, it would at least be enough to get me started, and ensure that I don't make any major mistakes trying to train myself. And when I move in the future, I can of course find a much better Dojo. I may be wrong on that, and if you would just not go here at all please let me know, but basically it's "Bad Teacher vs. Student Teaching Self" - neither good options, but which is the lesser of two evils?

Of course there's always the third option - find me a good Dojo within range of Franktown, Colorado USA. 

Oh, and I got some of my books in today. I've pretty much read cover to cover "Mystic Arts of the Ninja" - and it's seems a good book. I've already learned a good deal about Stealth Walking, not particularly in the examples given, but in the concepts. I can walk past my sleeping dog without him noticing already. lol


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## Blade of the East (May 25, 2006)

Definitely don't buy any thing from ashida kim in the future. Its just not worth it. Good luck with your training. I don't think self training is a good idea; however, I also don't believe that  school sounds great either. Personally I would go with lessons, but on the other hand you dont want to be taught techniques that are not genuine (you might have to un-learn them later). Its a tough decision, but the choice is yours. 

Once again good luck!


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2006)

Actually, you might want to consider something other than ninjutsu.

Let me be blunt, I can't see why you would be attracted to ninjutsu _and yet_ know so little about it that you can't tell Haha Lung from Hatsumi. The simplest and most likely explination is that you are attracted to the image of the ninja you see in the movies rather than knowing that there is something in the art you find interesting and worthy of study.

C'mon, be honest.  

Of course, many of us can't exactly throw stones in this regard. The image of the ninja is cool! But as luck would have it, Bujinkan, Genbukan, etc are damn good arts.

Ah, but they are not the only good arts out there. There are tons of great martial artists in the Denver area. I can think of a lot of teachers and arts I would be studying if the Bujinkan disapeared from the face of the earth and/or I did not alreay have a lot of time invested.

So, maybe you should look at other arts and teachers in the area. You may find that they don't have uniforms as cool as ours (black is so easy to assessorize with) but you will find they are just as good as ninjutsu.


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## Jag (May 26, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Actually, you might want to consider something other than ninjutsu.
> 
> Let me be blunt, I can't see why you would be attracted to ninjutsu _and yet_ know so little about it that you can't tell Haha Lung from Hatsumi. The simplest and most likely explination is that you are attracted to the image of the ninja you see in the movies rather than knowing that there is something in the art you find interesting and worthy of study.
> 
> C'mon, be honest.



I don't know where you got that info, I certainly know the diff between Hatsumi and Haha Lung/Ashida Kim. There seems be a mistake made in the above post by "Blade of the East" that I bought something by Ahsida Kim - which never happened.

I'm *NOT* attracted to the "Hollywood Ninja" at all. I'm attracted to Ninjutsu because of what the art teaches, survival, weapons, stealth, and the history of it. I trained in Karate when I was very young and I never liked it.

I didn't know what "Bujinkan" was right off the bat because I'm not good at remembering the names in foreign languages, and I'm obviously new enough to not have it in rope memory.

I'm drawn to Ninjutsu, and regardless of what you may think about me, I'm going to train in it. I've been turned onto a Bujinkan Dojo in Parker that I am looking into at the moment, and if nothing else you should realize that I am *TRYING* to do the right thing here. The very fact that I came here to inquire about things before just signing up with them should show something.

So, please, don't belittle me - I don't know everything, I'm new, but I'm trying to learn and I want to learn.


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2006)

I am not trying to belittle you. Your post kind of shows that you do not know what you are getting into when you train in a Bujinkan dojo and you may be disapointed because of your preconceived notions.

Seriously, most Bujinkan dojos teach unarmed stuff 90 percent of the time. Add in sticks and you are up to about 99 percent of the time. Not much stealth or survival or anything else you listed.

It is a good art. But if you are looking for a mystical commando type, you will be disapointed. If you did not like karate because it dealt mainly with just throwing punches and kicks, I don't think you will be any happier in a Bujinkan dojo. If you are only looking for a good art to study, keep your mind open and don't discount the idea of other arts.

That is not belittling. That is just my experience talking. I see a lot of people come into the art thinking that they will start off learning throwing stars and how to sneak into places. Most of them leave disapointed. I think people should look at a Bujinkan dojo with open eyes and no preconcieved notions about the art. If they like what they see, then great.


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## Jag (May 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I am not trying to belittle you. Your post kind of shows that you do not know what you are getting into when you train in a Bujinkan dojo and you may be disapointed because of your preconceived notions.



*ahem* Notice the term "beginner" I use all of the time when I reference myself? I don't know what to expect when I enter a Bujinkan Dojo - never been in one. I don't have any preconceived notions about anything. I know what I've read in the various books back at the beginning of this thread, and even if it doesn't play a large role, or any role, the things I listed are a part of Ninjutsu.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Seriously, most Bujinkan dojos teach unarmed stuff 90 percent of the time. Add in sticks and you are up to about 99 percent of the time. Not much stealth or survival or anything else you listed.



Perhaps our interpretations of "survival" are different. In my opinion, being able to defend ones self is a survival tactic, and quite an effective one at that. I'm also very well aware of the small amount of time spent on Weapon traing, but I'm ok with. My two focuses are, and have been, Hand to Hand & Staff. I've been interested in Ninjutsu for over 2 years, I just haven't had the time or ability to get any real training. Now that I do, I'm just running into problems at every angle. 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> It is a good art. But if you are looking for a mystical commando type, you will be disapointed. If you did not like karate because it dealt mainly with just throwing punches and kicks, I don't think you will be any happier in a Bujinkan dojo. If you are only looking for a good art to study, keep your mind open and don't discount the idea of other arts.



First off, "mystic commando" is the farthest thing from my mind. I don't know about anyone else, but I hardly plan on running into any undead super-dragons or an army of demons any time soon. I am drawn to Ninjutsu, I may not really know why, but I know that I will train in Ninjutsu, and make no mistake I plan to train hard and hopefully in the best ways possible. I'm not some 16 year old kid who just finished Ninja Gaiden and wants to go kill demons with my mad wall jumping skills. I want to learn Ninjutsu, the history, the techniques, all of it. I'm quite interested in the history by the way, I find it to be quite a fascinating look into human evolution, and will.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> That is not belittling. That is just my experience talking. I see a lot of people come into the art thinking that they will start off learning throwing stars and how to sneak into places. Most of them leave disapointed. I think people should look at a Bujinkan dojo with open eyes and no preconcieved notions about the art. If they like what they see, then great.



Perhaps "belittling" is too strong a term. I just got the feeling from your last post that you where... shooing away an annoying dog. Go on, shoo - that's right, go chase a car stupid mutt.

I don't expect to learn how to throw stars in my first class, or even in my first year of classes, and I'm ok with that. I think the big thing here is that you have a preconceived notion that I have a preconceived notion - which I don't. I am more than willing to walk into a Dojo and do what my teacher tells me, and not be dissapointed in however "uncool" it may be.

I will again admit that I don't really know what I'm doing. I have a few hurdles in my way in order to figure it out as well. However, I'm not going to just give up on something I've wanted for so long just because some guy on a forum said he thought I should - no offense of course, but my point remains.

I've been drawn to REAL Ninjutsu for about 2 years, and I'm finally getting the chance to actually move into it - so I may make a few mistakes, ask a few dumb questions, or buy a few less than great books - I'm here to learn, and that's what I'm going to do.

I don't want you to think that I'm just being stubborn, or that I don't respect your opinions, I do. I just am not going to "give up" on Ninjutsu.


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## Blade of the East (May 27, 2006)

Sorry, I thought one of your books was written by ashida kim, but I am wrong. Please excuse the mistake. I am glad that you are going to train in ninjitsu. It is easy to get caught up in the movie image of ninjitsu, but from the sound of it you are willing to expect the "real nijitsu".  Once you are able to start with classes let us know how they went. I am very interested in hearing about them. 

             Good Luck with your training


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## Carol (May 27, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So, maybe you should look at other arts and teachers in the area. You may find that they don't have uniforms as cool as ours (black is so easy to assessorize with) but you will find they are just as good as ninjutsu.


 
Eh, you Ninjas aren't the only ones with a black uniform sir.  And yeah....very very easy to accessorise with...except for that matching belt 


Jag, 

If Mr. Roley wanted you to "go away" I don't think he would have bothered to respond to you at all.  Not everyone in the arts is warm and fuzzy...don't take it personally.  All arts need optimistic novices to want to train in them...without them, the arts would die out.  And no novice should be expected to know what they are doing...that is what training is for.  

There are a few things in common in martial arts...we strike, block and kick.   In all seiousness, since you don't have a ninjutsu school in your area, why not consider training in another art until you move in a year or so?  

When you begin studying any martial art, you will learn some basics that can be transferred to any art.  In addition, you will gain some insight which can only be achieved by training with an instructor:  insight in to your own body as to what you do well and what you don't to well.   

Example:  I paired with a female in my class for roundhouse kick drills a couple months ago.  We each had small pads to hold.   We are both right handed and both the same rank.  One might think that we performed similarly on this drill.   We didn't.   She has a monstrous right round kick that could take off my shoulder.  Her left round kick barely makes contact with the pad.  By comparison...my round kicks are probably average for our rank...only...my left round kick is rather strong, and my right round kick is a bit weaker.  Two women, right side dominant, training for roughly the same amount of time.  Very very different results.

This is all stuff that you can bring to ninjutsu when you have the opportunity to properly train.  Plus, you will have the added advantage of showing a potential instructor that you are serious about martial arts, having already established the discipline of training in another art.  Training in another art doesn't make you less-dedicated to ninjutsu...it will probably make you more dedicated by maximizin the use of your time and maximizing your martial arts knowledges and experiences.

Time spent in the Arts is not time lost, even if it is not the art of your choice.  If for some reason I had to be seperated from my art from a period of time, I would be fervently finding another art, even for the interim, so I could keep training and keep active.

At my school, we had a college student from another country come to the Boston area for a semester to study.  He joined our school for 3 months.  No prior training or anything, but he did have an interest (as well as some college coursework) in physical education.  He made for an amazing student....and did more in 3 months than perhaps I've been able to do in a year.

I don't know if these ideas help or not...but personally, I think you will make one heck of a student once you find an instructor.


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## Don Roley (May 28, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> There are a few things in common in martial arts...we strike, block and kick.   In all seiousness, since you don't have a ninjutsu school in your area, why not consider training in another art until you move in a year or so?
> 
> When you begin studying any martial art, you will learn some basics that can be transferred to any art.



Ok Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now. :whip: 

This is actually one of the things I see as a big problem in the Bujinkan.

There are things done in many arts, but there is also a lot that differs in very subtle but important ways.

Let me give an example. If you look at the tires on my car, the tires of a truck and the tires of a F-1 formula racer, you will see there is some very important differences. They are all pretty much round, black with a hole in the center. But they are all very different in what they are supposed to do. It is not an arbitrary thing. These differences are built from the base up and manifest at every level of the vehicle- even down to the tires. You can't take the tires off of one and put it on the other. :apv: 

Note that I am not saying that one vehicle is superior to another. What is the best vehicle? It depends if you need to haul kids, soil or *** down the road. If you try to haul dirt in the racer you will fail- period. And you can't take the tires off of the truck and put it on the racer to try to haul soil.

In martial arts, we all are born in an idea of dealing with violence. But even that differs a great amount. Good arts tend to have a central principle and build around it rather than trying to do everything, none of it very well. This manifests itself in things like how they generate power, use the legs, angles and timing. All those fun things and more. 

For good reason, an art may be primarily a striking art and its central philosophy and way of doing things may require it to have very light footwork as it circles around and darts in and out like a lighting bolt. Another art may be built more around the idea of throwing and have more rooted stances with movements that flow more around the attack or the defense of the other guy in order to get inside to where you can set up the throw. This is going to have a huge impact on everything from the top to bottom of how it hits, uses the body and everything else. 

Neither is wrong, but there is a hell of a lot of possibility doing something wrong if you try to take the tires from one vehicle and try to put them on another. You can't take things in a void. Sumo wrestlers and Systema guys both slap people silly but very differently for very good reasons. I have been slapped by both and neither is fun, but the follow up in both arts differ and the intended result of the slap reflect that. Do you want to drive the guy back a bit, get him off balance so that you can toss him to the ground or out of the ring *or* do you want to keep up the attacks one after another while keeping yourself free to deal with a modern battlefield by drawing weapons and engaging multiple attackers?:machgunr: 

There are differences in martial arts, and seeing them even if they are very subtle is so important I can't put it into words. Even in the arts that make up the Bujinkan there are things that differ and trying to do something from one school fouls up the follow up to something from another. And you can imagine just how much trouble there can be if someone brings in habits from outside the Bujinkan. I have seen guys that move like they are still in karate, Wing Chung, judo or other arts instead of moving like a Bujinkan member IMO. They do some of the gross movements, but miss the things like which leg generates power or whether a punch is supposed to damage or affect the balance.

And of course, this is why I am so suspicious of people that create their own arts. They seem to take a little of one, some from another and stitch everything together to end up with Frankenstein's monster. And it is a reason why I think that this art really has trouble outside of Japan where a lot of instructors seem to have gotten their entire training at seminars and carry their old habits from other arts into what they do in the Bujinkan. And don't get me started on people that pick things up from videos or other people's notes from the internet. Shinden Fudo ryu done with a karate flavor makes me either want to barf or kill someone. :tantrum: 

Sorry to jump up and down on you like this. But I do think that it needs to be known that each art has something unique to it and it is that thing which makes it special. If you know it, you can work with it and outside of it. Lao Tzu said that the value of a wheel is in the void that is not there. As long as you know there are differences, you can deal with them. But when you try to do a karate block with a Takagi Yoshin ryu kata, you are doing the same thing as trying to fit a truck tire onto your Ferrari.


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## Carol (May 28, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Ok Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now. :whip:


 
You can try, but my hand-eye is damn good... :duel: 

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, and maybe even all of it. 

Consider the thoughfulness that you are seeing. What makes someone take the time to seek out an a voice of experience and get their opinion? It's someone that not only really wants something enough to go get it....they also want to do it right. Not only that sir...standing up to you :whip: takes a bit of resiliency. A good quality for a ninja, yes?


Personally, I don't have a very linear view of success. There is a lot of tradition to making an action plan, setting goals, and sticking to them. It's the purest way to succeed. But it is not the only way to succeed. Some routes aren't visible from one's driveway, they can only be seen once one gets on the highway and starts driving. :tank: 

If my nephew wanted to race like Danica Patrick, the best thing for him would be to learn from an Indy car instructor. Unfortunately there aren't any around where I am. So, I could tell my nephew that....sorry guy, no can do. You can't race, because I can't find you an instructor. 

Is that going to kill his desire to race? I kinda doubt it. But...it does mean that his interest goes unchecked. I really don't want the call from the state police saying he was picked up for drag racing. I don't want him following his desire by hanging out with wanna-bes. That gets dangerous, in more ways than one.

I can find him a stock car instructor. He may hate stock cars, and quit entirely. Or, stock cars becomes his motivation to do whatever it is that he's gotta do for himself to get in to an Indy car. 

He may start racing stock cars and find an Indy car instructor he wouldn't have found had he not been at the track every day. Or maybe he he gets so absorbed in the mechanics of it...he discoveres his real calling is in the pits...or building engines...and not necessarily behind the wheel. Or he might race stock cars and be enthralled with what he is doing...and loses himself to the passion of it all. 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Sorry to jump up and down on you like this. But I do think that it needs to be known that each art has something unique to it and it is that thing which makes it special.


 
Doesn't feel like I'm being jumped on. I agree with you. If he does go to race Indy cars, he'll have to learn how to drive all over again. He'll have to learn different rules, wear different gear, and use different techniques. Absolutely it's different. :iws: 

And look at how it can be applied. How many students can try something new KNOWING where their potential trouble spots may be? How many teachers can take on a student KNOWING what their bad habits may be? Most of us have to find this out the hard way sir.

:CTF:

A potentially self-directed noviciate also risks harm to the art...and may even risk harm to the novice under bad circumstances.   

Tough challenge.


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## Bigshadow (May 28, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> There are things done in many arts, but there is also a lot that differs in very subtle but important ways.
> 
> Let me give an example. If you look at the tires on my car, the tires of a truck and the tires of a F-1 formula racer, you will see there is some very important differences. They are all pretty much round, black with a hole in the center. But they are all very different in what they are supposed to do. It is not an arbitrary thing. These differences are built from the base up and manifest at every level of the vehicle- even down to the tires. You can't take the tires off of one and put it on the other. :apv:


Great analogy, nicely said Don! :asian:  This also applies to the other thread I had been discussing the efficacy of more subtle (less visible to the 'nekkid' eye) aspects of this art.


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## Bigshadow (May 28, 2006)

Speaking of books...

I am reading Bud Malstrom's *"Warriorship - Life lessons of a martial artist"*.  Any thoughts?  I am about half way through it.  I definitely connect with many aspects of the book, thus far.  I really liked the chapter regarding discipline.  I found this chapter to be quite profound, enough so, that I am re-examining my own personal discipline in some areas of my life, where I feel in less control of things.


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## malenko (May 31, 2006)

Don Roley= well spoken & hillarious.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Speaking of books...
> 
> I am reading Bud Malstrom's *"Warriorship - Life lessons of a martial artist"*. Any thoughts? I am about half way through it. I definitely connect with many aspects of the book, thus far. I really liked the chapter regarding discipline. I found this chapter to be quite profound, enough so, that I am re-examining my own personal discipline in some areas of my life, where I feel in less control of things.


 
Hey Dave,

I like that book as well.  I have not read it recently but it captivated me enough that I remember reading it in one sitting.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (May 31, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Hey Dave,
> 
> I like that book as well.  I have not read it recently but it captivated me enough that I remember reading it in one sitting.
> 
> ...


Wow, I wish I could sit that long or I must read slow.  

I finished it this weekend!   It was good.  There was more in there that I was impressed with.  Now I am reading "The Martial Way".  So far Morgan brings up some good points.  It really isn't Bujinkan related, but might be budo related (which I am hoping so).  So far so good.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Wow, I wish I could sit that long or I must read slow.
> 
> I finished it this weekend! It was good. There was more in there that I was impressed with. Now I am reading "The Martial Way". So far Morgan brings up some good points. It really isn't Bujinkan related, but might be budo related (which I am hoping so). So far so good.


 
Well I do not read that fast but when I like a book and it is captivating I will sometimes start after dinner and stay up all night to read it!    That way it hardly impacts the family life!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cryozombie (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> "The Martial Way". So far Morgan brings up some good points.


 
Id say thats a good choice in reading materials.


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## Bigshadow (Jun 1, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Well I do not read that fast but when I like a book and it is captivating I will sometimes start after dinner and stay up all night to read it!    That way it hardly impacts the family life!
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com



Hey there is an idea...   I can certainly understand impacting the family life.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 19, 2006)

Bumping this one up for some new folks who might be interested in books.


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