# Information Behind Siu Lim Tao



## WC-Sam (Oct 3, 2011)

As the title says, I'd like to know all of the information behind Siu Lim Tao.
Everything from, why you Fut Sau, what it means, and how it's used outside of the form, to the double Tan Sau. Every possible piece of information that their is to be known on the moves featured in Siu Lim Tao.

Aswell as the fundamentals of SLT. e.g Training your root, chi energy etc.

Ofcourse I understand, that their may or may not be certain moves featured in my lineage.

Thanks for any input!


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## mook jong man (Oct 3, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> As the title says, I'd like to know all of the information behind Siu Lim Tao.
> Everything from, why you Fut Sau, what it means, and how it's used outside of the form, to the double Tan Sau. Every possible piece of information that their is to be known on the moves featured in Siu Lim Tao.
> 
> Aswell as the fundamentals of SLT. e.g Training your root, chi energy etc.
> ...



You don't want much do ya ?


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## Vajramusti (Oct 3, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> As the title says, I'd like to know all of the information behind Siu Lim Tao.
> Everything from, why you Fut Sau, what it means, and how it's used outside of the form, to the double Tan Sau. Every possible piece of information that their is to be known on the moves featured in Siu Lim Tao.
> 
> Aswell as the fundamentals of SLT. e.g Training your root, chi energy etc.
> ...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are you kidding? Explaining good sil lim tao in depth-is a long process.
joy chaudhuri


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## jks9199 (Oct 3, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> As the title says, I'd like to know all of the information behind Siu Lim Tao.
> Everything from, why you Fut Sau, what it means, and how it's used outside of the form, to the double Tan Sau. Every possible piece of information that their is to be known on the moves featured in Siu Lim Tao.
> 
> Aswell as the fundamentals of SLT. e.g Training your root, chi energy etc.
> ...


Sounds like what you want is a teacher, and several years of training.  Maybe you need to rephrase what you're after?  Are you looking to discuss some of the ideas and principles in Siu Lim Tao?  Maybe you ought to pick one to start with, and offer your understanding of it, so that others can respond to that.


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## wtxs (Oct 3, 2011)

WC Sam - first line of information should have been available through your teacher ... if you are not getting the information which you seek, look for another teacher.

Here are couple links may give you what you are looking for:





http://ewingchun.com/sifu-sergio-presents-sifu-david-peterson-teaching-malaysia-part-2-siu-nim-tau-1


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Oct 3, 2011)

wtxs said:


> WC Sam - first line of information should have been available through your teacher ... if you are not getting the information which you seek, look for another teacher.
> 
> Here are couple links may give you what you are looking for:
> 
> ...



Links are nice and informative, as far as the OP goes if you want to study it(by it i Mean WT) , Then you should know that , it won't happen overnight and it won't be as smooth as you would like it to be , it will require time , patience and alot of hard work and/or Dedication , You will have to practice hard and incase you don't have a partner you should get one , things are alot easier when you have a partner , If you want details For some other use then there are countless videos and articles available online ...


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## WC-Sam (Oct 3, 2011)

Ahah, I certainly am asking for alot.

I want to know specific things, I want to understand Siu Lim Tao inside out.
I can ask certain things to my teacher, which I already have done, although it's hard to get all in the info during a 1 hour lesson.

If someone can explain to me things such as the economy of motion, internal and external energy, stuff like that, the purposes of Siu Lim Tao.
Aswell as why you do certain things, I know I'll have to ask my Sifu, but I came here to try and get any extra information that will help me in the learning process.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 3, 2011)

seriously, this is something that you can only understand thru study with a good instructor, and a whole lot of practice.

It is both unreasonable and inappropriate to expect this kind of information over the internet.  It's not possible to convey in this manner.  There are no quick answers nor easy solutions that will enlighten you.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 3, 2011)

Sorry, couldn't resist... I'll go now


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## WC-Sam (Oct 3, 2011)

> It is both unreasonable and inappropriate to expect this kind of information over the internet.



I only wanted to know simplistic things.

For example.

Siu Lim Tao teaches you about training your root, internal chi energy etc etc.
Tan Sau is used to protect your upper outer gate etc.

I didn't think it was too demanding?


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## yak sao (Oct 3, 2011)

Here are a couple of old sayings regarding SNT and the stance itself....start here and practice about 1000 times.
In doing so, you'll answer a lot of your own questions


 Sink the elbow and drop the shoulders; Guarding the centerline to protect both flanks

 Form a pyramid with the center of gravity in the center

Sink the elbows, the shoulders, and the waist

Push your feet to the ground and press your head to the sky


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## Flying Crane (Oct 3, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> I only wanted to know simplistic things.
> 
> For example.
> 
> ...



but that kind of thing has no meaning on a superficial level.


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## wtxs (Oct 3, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> Ahah, I certainly am asking for alot.
> 
> I want to know specific things, I want to understand Siu Lim Tao inside out.
> I can ask certain things to my teacher, which I already have done, although it's hard to get all in the info during a 1 hour lesson.
> ...


*
*
Have you the chance to watch the video links that I've posted?  It may not be of your WC linage ... the core of the WC concepts and principles are the same.  How about watch the vids and than post of what you have learn from it ... it would be interesting to see your take on it.

 As been voiced by others, the first person you needed to go to is your teacher, this forum can only supplement, the explaination of things you seek has to be shown ... as by your teacher or others with the knowledge to do so, we really can't spare the time or efforts to write an long and drawn out post and still not able to fully give you that big picture you are looking for.

You really wanted to learn?  Stay after class and bug the hell out of your teacher ... may he/she would show more of the inner workings of Sil Lim Tao just to get you out of their hair ... it had worked for me.


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## geezer (Oct 3, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> As the title says, I'd like to know all of the information behind Siu Lim Tao....



I find this question more than a little ironic. In the WT lineage I came from, we call this form _Siu Nim Tau _or "Little Idea Form". Part of the meaning of this title is that the student should try to maintain a "little idea" in his head and cultivate patience while focusing on getting the basics deeply ingrained... rather than having a "big idea" and wanting to know everything at once. Something worth thinking about.


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## mook jong man (Oct 4, 2011)

So much of the form is a voyage of self discovery anyway , a journey that only *you *can take .

The form is teaching you how *your* own body operates , while a persons arms and legs can be put in roughly the correct positions , the height of the stance and the optimum angles of the arms are unique to the individual and must be found out through constant practice of the form. 

As far as applications go , they are limitless , even if somehow through some type of vulcan mindmeld I was able to transfer every application that I know of into your brain , it wouldn't help you much because you haven't been through the training of the form in order to make them work.

Just do as Geezer says and work on your foundation , you have enough to think about already without trying to jump ahead and get to the later stuff.

Keep practising the form diligently and it will gradually reveal it's secrets to you as you forge ahead in your own personal training voyage.

There will be plenty of setbacks and mistakes for sure , but you will return again and again to the form for guidance and like a beacon in the darkness it will put you back on the right path.


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## Domino (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> I only wanted to know simplistic things.
> 
> For example.
> 
> ...


Very. You can find threads in the forum, google is a good tool and speaking with your sifu. No disrespect intended but another Harris


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## WC-Sam (Oct 4, 2011)

> Here are a couple of old sayings regarding SNT and the stance itself....start here and practice about 1000 times.
> In doing so, you'll answer a lot of your own questions
> 
> 
> ...




Thanks, But I know how to do the form, I can 'execute/perform/do/' Siu Lim Tao quite well.
As of yet, this has been the most helpful, thanks.

I'm forever staying behind in class and asking a tonne of questions, as well as asking if my form is correct in terms of movement.




> but that kind of thing has no meaning on a superficial level.



How can it have no meaning? What use to me is knowing the form if I can't dissect it and know the name and correct application of it outside the form?


I get the idea most of you think I'm asking for a word depicted explanation on how to properly Bong Sau or something, *Im not.
*
I just thought as this a forum for Wing Chun, you'd be able to help me with the basic functions of certain moves. Not in depth, but explaining to me why you Huen Sau, or something like that.




> Here are couple links may give you what you are looking for:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Going to watch these now, thankyou.


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## jks9199 (Oct 4, 2011)

So -- Take a move.  How do YOU use it?  Throw out your interpretation and understanding, and let others add theirs.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> How can it have no meaning? What use to me is knowing the form if I can't dissect it and know the name and correct application of it outside the form?



It does have meaning.  It's just that it is a deeper meaning than can be adequately conveyed thru a quick forum like this.  Just hearing the words doesn't give it meaning.  Digging deeper, over time, will bring the meaning out and THEN the words will make sense.  But that takes time and work and a good teacher.


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## mook jong man (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> Thanks, But I know how to do the form, I can 'execute/perform/do/' Siu Lim Tao quite well.
> As of yet, this has been the most helpful, thanks.
> 
> I'm forever staying behind in class and asking a tonne of questions, as well as asking if my form is correct in terms of movement.
> ...




I Huen Sau because I have ended up on the outside of his arm and I want to get on the inside of his arm to hit him.

I can use Huen Sau to break out of wrist grabs by circling either to the inside or the outside depending on the type of grab.

I can defend myself with one arm against someone throwing a straight punch at my face by intercepting with a Tan Sau , then cutting down slightly with the same arm , then circling to the inside of the arm with Huen Sau then striking the lower ribcage/ kidneys with a side palm strike .

I can use Huen Sau to deflect a low straight punch to the gut or groin.

I can use two Huen Sau's at the same to redirect a low double strike or attempted waist grab , with a slight step back and then step back in and double palm strike them in the lower midsection.

That's just a few of them , for more applications you will have to purchase my upcoming five volume set of Dvd's titled _*HUEN SAU FOR DUMMIES*_ for the amazing low price of only $850.99 available at all good DVD stockists (and some bad ones too)


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## wtxs (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> I'm forever staying behind in class and asking a tonne of questions, as well as asking if my form is correct in terms of movement.
> How can it have no meaning? What use to me is knowing the form if I can't dissect it and know the name and correct application of it outside the form?
> 
> I just thought as this a forum for Wing Chun, you'd be able to help me with the basic functions of certain moves. Not in depth, but explaining to me why you Huen Sau, or something like that.



Don't just ask questions or if your form is correct, have your teacher *SHOW* you, if he/she is not doing that or just give you the "piece meal" ... either he don't know or just holding out for longer monthly dues.

I can safely say you knows just little more than the movements of the form, understand every aspects of it takes time and hard work ... you can't dissect it when you haven't the understanding of it.  



mook jong man said:


> That's just a few of them , for more applications you will have to purchase my upcoming five volume set of Dvd's titled _*HUEN SAU FOR DUMMIES*_ for the amazing low price of only $850.99 available at all good DVD stockists (and some bad ones too)



That's a good one Mook, but should he not have gotten that from his teacher?:hmm:  He did paid his dues after all.


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## WC-Sam (Oct 4, 2011)

> It *does have* meaning.  It's just that it is a deeper meaning than can be  adequately conveyed thru a quick forum like this. * Just hearing the  words doesn't give it meaning.*  Digging deeper, over time, will bring  the meaning out and THEN the words will make sense.  But that takes time  and work and a good teacher.





> but that kind of thing *has no meaning* on a superficial level.



The best way I learn is through finding out why its used first, it's purpose is more important to me than the physical aspect. If i understand its purpose, then I feel I learn better executing it.
Then seeing how it works it something else. If you disagree then fine, but I dont see why I cant be told some simple things on here, Im enthusiastic enough to try and learn outside the class.

You say "Then the words will make sense" but most of you have refused to throw information my way. If you're not going to tell me then whats the point in lecturing me about spending time of the form. 
(Dont tell me why I need to practice the form, I already know)
I may aswell just continue asking my Sifu, most of you seem to not want to share anything.


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## altbus1 (Oct 4, 2011)

Can I ask you for how long you are training WC?
My sifu for example starts with short syllabus before he explains SLT. He isn't holding back but feeds us little by little. He thinks it's better this way to absorb the information. I can understand that you want to understand the SLT but if you give it some time I think your foundations will be better. The first form is I think the longest part to master during your training.

Greetz


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> The best way I learn is through finding out why its used first, it's purpose is more important to me than the physical aspect. If i understand its purpose, then I feel I learn better executing it.
> Then seeing how it works it something else. If you disagree then fine, but I dont see why I cant be told some simple things on here, Im enthusiastic enough to try and learn outside the class.
> 
> You say "Then the words will make sense" but most of you have refused to throw information my way. If you're not going to tell me then whats the point in lecturing me about spending time of the form.
> ...



I don't know you, I don't know your shifu and I don't know your shigung but I will tell you this about some of the old school CMA teachers (particularly those trained in China) or those sifu trained by old school guys.

They know better than you do as to what you are ready to understand and learn and they expect you to work on what they gave shown you and when they believe you are ready they will explain and/or show you more. Until they know you are ready all asking does is frustrate you. Took me a few years to figure that one out, but when I did things got easier and I got better.

The flip side of that however is that your sifu may not know and if that is the case.leave and find another school.


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## izeqb (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> The best way I learn is through finding out why its used first, it's purpose is more important to me than the physical aspect. If i understand its purpose, then I feel I learn better executing it.
> Then seeing how it works it something else. If you disagree then fine, but I dont see why I cant be told some simple things on here, Im enthusiastic enough to try and learn outside the class.



I understand where you are coming from... I'm the same way... 
What usually happen when I'm about to learn something new, my instructor show me how it's done, how it should feel etc. then we practice this stuff for a long time and even though my body may start to "remember" the feelings/movements, it isn't untill I mentally "get it" that it all comes together... 

I guess some people need to be able to explain it, before they understand it... Some of us learn by doing, some by watching and some by understanding the concepts. For me, personally, wing chun is an intelligent system and I like to understand the concepts behind the stuff I'm doing... it gives me a kind of auto-correct feature '




WC-Sam said:


> You say "Then the words will make sense" but most of you have refused to throw information my way. If you're not going to tell me then whats the point in lecturing me about spending time of the form.
> (Dont tell me why I need to practice the form, I already know)
> I may aswell just continue asking my Sifu, most of you seem to not want to share anything.



It's not that people won't share... If you look around and read other threads, you'll find that some of the people that has playfully bashed you around, are some of the most helpful guys here on the forum.

The things is that you didn't asked the right questions... In your opening post, you asked like 20 questions at once.

Instead, ask about specific stuff and I'm sure you'll get the help you're after. Another thing, did you watch the videos? If not, do so...!

_Edit: just saw your reply in a earlier post, regarding the videos 
_
If you want people to share their "gems", start by sharing some of your own findings first, it often helps


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## wushuguy (Oct 4, 2011)

Don't be discouraged, especially if this is the first time you've ever been on a forum. It's just that there's a lot of people asking questions that they don't realize have other implications or that well, should be answered within their own practice and sifu. If you want additional info, better you can practice learning how to use the search on the forum too. It's a good tool and might have answered some questions even without needing to ask. If searching still can't find it, you can always try asking on the forum. But if you want more indepth stuff that well, should be learned from your teacher, you'd better ask him/her. Otherwise you can PM me and I'll tell you what you want to know for a reasonable fee ;-)


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## WC_lun (Oct 4, 2011)

SLT is a tool used to teach you proper body mechanics and structure.  In my opinion, it is a mistake to look for techniques and hidden voodoo hoodoo within the form.  If you want to learn what the form is supposed to teach you then do the form many, many, MANY, times with great precision until your body does it naturally. At that point, you will "get" what the form has to teach you.  Until then it is all theorycraft, and as such, next to useless.  Don't make things more complicated than they have to be.  Learning Wing Chun is hard enough without adding to it.

There is a lot to Wing Chun, but the truth is, until you absorb it into your mind and body we could tell you every little detail about it that we know, but you would not truly understand what we were telling you.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 4, 2011)

WC-Sam said:


> As the title says, I'd like to know all of the information behind Siu Lim Tao.
> Everything from, why you Fut Sau, what it means, and how it's used outside of the form, to the double Tan Sau. Every possible piece of information that their is to be known on the moves featured in Siu Lim Tao.
> 
> Aswell as the fundamentals of SLT. e.g Training your root, chi energy etc.
> ...



Move to Greenville/Spartanburg SC, pay me $5,000, and train with me for 5 years, then you will know all you need to know about Siu Nim Tao.  It's that easy.


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## wtxs (Oct 4, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Move to Greenville/Spartanburg SC, pay me $5,000, and train with me for 5 years, then you will know all you need to know about Siu Nim Tao.  It's that easy.



Are you out of your mind?  It'll way less expensive just buy all of Mook's INSTRUCTIONAL DVDs. :hammer:


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## mook jong man (Oct 4, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Are you out of your mind?  It'll way less expensive just buy all of Mook's INSTRUCTIONAL DVDs. :hammer:


I forgot to mention they also come with a free complimentary autographed poster of me performing the Siu Nim Tao in the nude , so that you can observe how well developed my "root" is.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 4, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I forgot to mention they also come with a free complimentary autographed poster of me performing the Siu Nim Tao in the nude , so that you can observe how well developed my "root" is.



tap root?


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## wtxs (Oct 5, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I forgot to mention they also come with a free complimentary autographed poster of me performing the Siu Nim Tao in the nude , so that you can observe how well developed my "root" is.



Buyer beware warning: DON'T open or look at the poster!  It may cause you to go blind ... however, the up tick is that you'll never ever needed blind fold to perform master level chi sao.


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 11, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Are you out of your mind? It'll way less expensive just buy all of Mook's INSTRUCTIONAL DVDs. :hammer:



True, true, it would be much cheaper. But just remember, you get what you pay for. $5000 and you get lots of personal training or you can opt for 2 DVD's, and a poster of a naked man.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 11, 2011)

:hmm:

I think I'll go for what's behind door nuber 3 Monty


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## Domino (Oct 12, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I forgot to mention they also come with a free complimentary autographed poster of me performing the Siu Nim Tao in the nude , so that you can observe how well developed my "root" is.



I'm trying to remain professional here  Killed me.


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## mesar (Oct 16, 2011)

http://wcats.com/WCLessons/SLT/SLTmove1-3.php
Lot of good information on that site. 
Siu Nim Tao is relative. What you first learn, you'll apply differently as your training progresses. You'll discover things within the form, nuances you didn't see at first. Or different ways of looking at it. I first started looking for angles, geometry, now I look for concepts, principles.


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## Jean Marais (Nov 10, 2013)

That is a dissapointing response. Every major religion in the world had a tomb codifying its teachings even if it is open to literal and or metaphorical interperatation(s). Ironically, not a single martial arts system I know of has sought to put to paper it's teachings in this way in the modern age. With the mediums other than paper available to us in this age, this is inexusable. Living and practicing is a far better teacher than reading, but reading could greatly suppliment the learning. I too would go about learning the forms by first understanding them.


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## jks9199 (Nov 10, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> That is a dissapointing response. Every major religion in the world had a tomb codifying its teachings even if it is open to literal and or metaphorical interperatation(s). Ironically, not a single martial arts system I know of has sought to put to paper it's teachings in this way in the modern age. With the mediums other than paper available to us in this age, this is inexusable. Living and practicing is a far better teacher than reading, but reading could greatly suppliment the learning. I too would go about learning the forms by first understanding them.


It's a bit off topic in this thread -- but that's quite far from accurate.  Many Japanese arts have scrolls of teachings that are for the most senior students; in fact, The Book of Five Rings is one of them!  There are extensive books about Karate (like Karate-do Kyohan), and many other arts have lots of writings about them.  American Kenpo has their Big Red Book...

In fact... I think I'm stealing your question and topic and taking them over to the General Martial Arts to see how many we can come up with!


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## geezer (Nov 10, 2013)

Jean Marais said:


> That is a dissapointing response. Every major religion in the world had a tomb codifying its teachings...



Excuse me, but perhaps you meant "tome", as in "a large book"? A "tomb" is a repository for the dead.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 10, 2013)

There are books in traditional Chinese marital arts with history but historically they were not made public, they were copied by a student with permission of his shifu.

Beyond that making an art public, in writing, was not always in the best interests of the shifu. Also take into account even Chinese religions did not write things down until later. Originally they too depended in their rights, training and history being passed on by word of mouth, teacher to student


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## Jean Marais (Nov 10, 2013)

Sorry, tome..not tomb. And to qualify further I meant specifically literature explaining the compendium of forms in a modern form (scrolls format is not supported by my iPhone). I'll follow this further on the linked thread, thanks.


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## Marnetmar (Jan 15, 2014)

Explaining any form in depth is really difficult if not impossible due to the fact that they are about principles of movement rather than the movements themselves. Everything you do can have hundreds of different applications, ranging from blocks to hits to grabs and grab breaks, etc.

My advice to you would be to perform it by yourself and analyze every little movement, and if anything comes to you ask your instructor what you have found.


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## Takai (Jan 15, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> I forgot to mention they also come with a free complimentary autographed poster of me performing the Siu Nim Tao in the nude , so that you can observe how well developed my "root" is.



Great Mook. Thanks for the mental visual. Now I am going to need even more therapy.:toilclaw:  

Back to the OP's original questions. It may not feel like the responding posters are being helpful but, they actually are. The questions that you asked are not something that can be simply explained and certainly not in the limited capacity of this forum. I may sound a bit tripe but having something explained before you understand its foundation can be a big problem and cause future issues with your training. It isn't a matter of holding back knowledge. It is a matter of giving you knowledge appropriate to your level of training.

Please pardon me if I missed it but, I have seen a couple request for your personal level of training and yet no answer has been given. This may seem to be a bit condescending however that is not the intention. I can't think of single person here that would try to "hold" you back. (Mook even offered his fine video compilation..j/k) We truly would like to help. My advice start with one *specific *simple question and see what happens.

Enjoy the journey.


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