# Cross Training



## Casey_Sutherland (Aug 15, 2005)

The reason I love kenpo is because it encompasses so much and is ever growing. What do other MT members cross train their kenpo with, and how has it changed your kenpo? A kenpoist with a TKD background will obviously execute their kenpo different than that of a shotokan. and has anyone shifted from kenpo to another being their now major art putting kenpo in the backseat?

Just stirring the pot a bit 

Casey


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2005)

I cross train mine with BJJ and Arnis.  I find that while there are many aspects in Kenpo, my 2 additional arts help * me * round out * my * Kenpo.  For example, I've found many places where I was able to add parts of Arnis into my Kenpo techs.  The BJJ has helped give me a better understanding of how to apply that and the Kenpo while on the ground.  

Mike


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## USKS1 (Aug 15, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> I cross train mine with BJJ and Arnis. I find that while there are many aspects in Kenpo, my 2 additional arts help *me *round out *my *Kenpo. For example, I've found many places where I was able to add parts of Arnis into my Kenpo techs. The BJJ has helped give me a better understanding of how to apply that and the Kenpo while on the ground.
> 
> Mike


I like to cross train in JKD, FMA, BJJ, and Thai & Western Boxing. They all compliment each other well and fit right in with Kenpo and Kajukenbo.

Regardless of the art you choose, you should strive to be functional in long, medium, close range, and grounded combat, unarmed and with weapons.. Don't forget to spend some time at the shooting range also.. %-}  
Keep up the hard training

Dean


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## MJS (Aug 15, 2005)

Dean-

Nice seeing you back on the forum!!!

As for your post...I couldn't agree more!  Being well rounded in all ranges is something that certainly should not be overlooked.  

Mike




			
				USKS1 said:
			
		

> I like to cross train in JKD, FMA, BJJ, and Thai & Western Boxing. They all compliment each other well and fit right in with Kenpo and Kajukenbo.
> 
> Regardless of the art you choose, you should strive to be functional in long, medium, close range, and grounded combat, unarmed and with weapons.. Don't forget to spend some time at the shooting range also.. %-}
> Keep up the hard training
> ...


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## searcher (Aug 15, 2005)

My primary is now Chito-ryu and not Kenpo, but I would not say that I put it on the back burner.   I had to switch due to instructors not continuing to teach.   I still train my very limited knowledge that I have acquired, but only for the chance that some day I will be able to pick it back up.


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## Seabrook (Aug 15, 2005)

I have changed my way of thinking quite a bit the past few years. 

While my primary art will always be EPAK, I also have black belts in Modern Arnis, Northern Si Lum Kung Fu, and Shorinji-Ryu Karate. Arnis was beneficial in my understanding of weapons defense, and the use of knives and clubs; Kung Fu taught me to move with greater fluidity, speed, and gracefulness; and Shorinji-Ryu Karate helped my overall basics. 

I used to love cross-training, but now I prefer to cross-reference with other styles, as Clyde would call it. The reason is simple: 
IMO - there is more than enough in EPAK in already, and that any perceived deficiencies, are "perceived only". 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 15, 2005)

Well........of all the styles I've studied and/or hold rank in, Kenpo remains the most open to change/innovation/adjusments/ and alteration so Kenpo still remains the "main" art or base to me in my journey.


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## USKS1 (Aug 16, 2005)

*I used to love cross-training, but now I prefer to cross-reference with other styles, as Clyde would call it. The reason is simple: 
IMO - there is more than enough in EPAK in already, and that any perceived deficiencies, are "perceived only". 
*
I have a question regarding cross referencing. How can you cross reference material and find it in your base system if you haven't cross trained to understand the material?

If you don't study a weapon based art, then you try to introduce the weapon into your "empty hand" system you may be in for some big surprises. You also have to go through the learning curve the weapon based systems had to go through as they developed. Same goes for grappling etc. Why re-invent the wheel? It may take a few years to get proficient in the other systems so you can effectively "cross reference", but it could take a lot longer to figure it out on your own.

My base will always be Kajukenbo, but instead of trying to figure out on my own where a stick and knife fits into the base art better, I study FMA to better understand the weapons and how to use them, and then I can find where and how to apply it within my base art.

Same for grappling. Why not learn a grappling system correctly, become proficient, and then learn to apply it or "find" it within your base system.

Cross training is not only done because a system is deficient, but maybe to borrow and "absorb what is useful" from other systems that focus on a certain skill and learn that skill and apply it to your art.

Just some food for thought.

Keep up the hard training.

Dean.


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## Seabrook (Aug 16, 2005)

USKS1 said:
			
		

> I have a question regarding cross referencing. How can you cross reference material and find it in your base system if you haven't cross trained to understand the material?
> 
> Cross training is not only done because a system is deficient, but maybe to borrow and "absorb what is useful" from other systems that focus on a certain skill and learn that skill and apply it to your art.


The problem that I see is that so many martial artists (Kenpoists included) cross-train in other arts simply because they lack the focus to learn their primary art correctly, and because they want to chase after ranks in as many styles as possible. 

With regards to your questions, I don't think you need to cross-train to fully understand the material being tought, providing you are advanced enough in your base system. In any case, what is your complete definition of cross-training? 

Also, where do you feel Kenpo has its deficiencies?

Good discussion bro,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> The problem that I see is that so many martial artists (Kenpoists included) cross-train in other arts simply because they lack the focus to learn their primary art correctly, and because they want to chase after ranks in as many styles as possible.



Speaking for myself here, rank takes a back burner with me.  For the amount of time I've been doing BJJ I should be a Black Belt.  Rank is not going to help when the heat is on, its the knowledge that will.  I'm getting rank in Arnis but that is my choice.  



> With regards to your questions, I don't think you need to cross-train to fully understand the material being tought, providing you are advanced enough in your base system. In any case, what is your complete definition of cross-training?
> 
> Also, where do you feel Kenpo has its deficiencies?



I've had this discussion with Clyde many times.  He took the time to explain the grappling or ground aspect of Kenpo to me, when I was thinking that it was not there.  One of the reasons I like to train in other arts is A) because I like what my other 2 have to offer, and B)because it will further enhance what is already contained in my Kenpo.  IMO, if someone wants to be competent on the ground, they need to get on the mat with a grappler.  Now, do I need to take up BJJ for the next "X" numebr of years or do I just have to reference their material, just working out with a grappler?  I guess it all comes down to what the person wants to do.  

Mike


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## Shotochem (Aug 16, 2005)

Hi All,
I recently joined Okinawian Kenpo in addition to my training in Shotokan.  It has been quite a learning experience.  It's not as easy to crosstrain as I have expected.  I have a bit of mental "overstimulation" at the moment and I'm finding that one art is bleeding over to the other.

(hey, you got your peanutbutter in my chocolate, you got your chocolate in my peanut butter!!!)

I still enjoy my Shotokan but I really like the Kenpo "attitude".  The fighting, weapons, knife and bat defenses, the fight continuing to the ground ect....
It just seems so much more street practical, yet from my first day on in Kenpo I still held my own while sparring.

The Shotokan Katas, the raw power of the punching and kicking techniques and strong core and stances.

I don't know if I can mentally and physically handle both.  Is it just me being a total spaz or does it ever get easier?

Should I stick to one of the 2 arts or continue and see what happens?  I never felt inadequate with my mother art of Shotokan but I feel the urge for more and have become facinated by other arts and styles.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

Shotochem said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> I recently joined Okinawian Kenpo in addition to my training in Shotokan.  It has been quite a learning experience.  It's not as easy to crosstrain as I have expected.  I have a bit of mental "overstimulation" at the moment and I'm finding that one art is bleeding over to the other.
> 
> (hey, you got your peanutbutter in my chocolate, you got your chocolate in my peanut butter!!!)
> ...



How long have you been training in your base art?  If its been a few months, I'd say wait until you're more of an advanced level.  If its been a while already, go ahead and give cross training a try.  Ultimately its you that will need to decide if it works for you and meets you needs.  

Mike


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## USKS1 (Aug 16, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> The problem that I see is that so many martial artists (Kenpoists included) cross-train in other arts simply because they lack the focus to learn their primary art correctly, and because they want to chase after ranks in as many styles as possible.
> 
> With regards to your questions, I don't think you need to cross-train to fully understand the material being tought, providing you are advanced enough in your base system. In any case, what is your complete definition of cross-training?
> 
> ...


 
MJS,
Good to see your posts.. Thanks for saying Hi. I agree with you. Rank just shows up after awhile.. Cross training should not be done for the sake of rank, but for the sake of knowledge and understanding.

Jamie,
For the case of explanation I will try to use a couple of examples.

If you have no real understanding or no real experience in grappling and you spend some time rolling with an experienced grappler you will understand the value of learning grappling correctly. Then you can add the applicable info to you Kenpo and hopefully have a more complete game.

I agree you can find applications of standup techniques for grounded situations, and the principles apply to the ground also, but do you think that you are working the ground to the level that a good grappler does?
The live environment you get when rolling can only be learned by stepping into that environment. You can't get the feel for the range unless you train and spar in that environment. You can be a very experienced martial artist and be schooled by a blue ( or white ) belt on the mat... I have been humbled many times.

Another example is weapon based skills. You can put a stick in your hand and apply Kenpo as in the pre-set techniques or in form 7, but do you really think that you will have the understanding of the stick that a student or instructor of a weapon based system has? That kind of skill takes time and saavy.. The kind of skill that comes from swinging a stick regularly and applying tactics in your fighting and training.

I don't feel Kenpo is deficient, but I also see the value of training at the source of the arts I see value in. This is just my opinion. If you feel you get enough from just trying to find the material within Kenpo so be it. It's your journey.

You can train some boxing ideas, put on some gloves, knock each other around a bit now and then, but when you go up against someone who trains in the gym at the game and understands how to apply it, is conditoned to do the rounds...again the humbling can begin.... 

The point I was originally trying to make is that without an understanding of the art you are trying to cross reference how can you do it? It will require a little cross training to understand enough about it to cross reference it.

Good thread guys..

Gotta go.

Dean.


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## Seabrook (Aug 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> IMO, if someone wants to be competent on the ground, they need to get on the mat with a grappler. Mike


Agreed 100% Mike.

Jamie Seabrook


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## Seabrook (Aug 16, 2005)

USKS1 said:
			
		

> MJS,
> Good to see your posts.. Thanks for saying Hi. I agree with you. Rank just shows up after awhile.. Cross training should not be done for the sake of rank, but for the sake of knowledge and understanding.
> 
> Jamie,
> ...


Hi Dean,

I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. My point was simply that time training in other arts could be time devoted to improving your Kenpo. And given that there are 154 techniques in this system, 96 extensions, plus a lot of forms and sets, almost all of my attention is centered on Kenpo. 

That doesn't mean I won't empty my cup (or get a larger cup as some would say) and learn from other styles. It just means that I feel there is so much in EPAK that I want to work on improving my skills in this great art until my last day on earth.  Afterall, I still practice (and teach occassionally) material in the other arts I have trained it; FAR LESS TIME is devoted to it than EPAK, however. 

Also, I don't make material in any other art but EPAK REQUIRED for promotion. There's more than enough in our system already....with lots more to discover. 

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 16, 2005)

well i guess this could come under the "cross training" the other day the wife and myself went to a family BBQ , well i met this guy (nice person) and he had on a hat that said 
   " Art Beins karate" well we had this long talk and he told me that his school was called 
 "BLACK CAT KENPO" but they do TKD i mean i showed him some tecq'a (5 swords, checking the storm, and some other's but he did not know these(he is a blackbelt)
   he told me that they do all the TKD forms and that he did not know who ED Parker was.
 i had to say why call it black cat kenpo?? he said it was because of the hands, i then showed him alot of hand movements, i also think i showd him short one, he did not know it.
   well after this he said that he never seen anything like i showed him and nothing that fast,
   i still don't know what kind of cross training this was , and what good did it do for anyone.

   ps can anyone tell me if they know of these guys>


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## USKS1 (Aug 16, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hi Dean,
> 
> I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. My point was simply that time training in other arts could be time devoted to improving your Kenpo. And given that there are 154 techniques in this system, 96 extensions, plus a lot of forms and sets, almost all of my attention is centered on Kenpo.
> 
> ...


I think we agree, more than we disagree. At the end of the day we need to be happy and feel good about our training, I appreciate the conversation.

Keep up the hard training.

Dean.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 16, 2005)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hi Dean,
> 
> I agree with the vast majority of what you are saying. My point was simply that time training in other arts could be time devoted to improving your Kenpo. And given that there are 154 techniques in this system, 96 extensions, plus a lot of forms and sets, almost all of my attention is centered on Kenpo.
> 
> ...


Empty your cup not by pouring out the contents but by "drinking" the contents so that it becomes internalized and a part of you.  Then you'll have time and space to fill your cup with another "drink".


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## Shotochem (Aug 16, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> How long have you been training in your base art?  If its been a few months, I'd say wait until you're more of an advanced level.  If its been a while already, go ahead and give cross training a try.  Ultimately its you that will need to decide if it works for you and meets you needs.
> 
> Mike



I've been training Shotokan regularly for 6+ years but only 1 month of cross training.  Maybe I just need to give it more time.


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## MJS (Aug 16, 2005)

Shotochem said:
			
		

> I've been training Shotokan regularly for 6+ years but only 1 month of cross training.  Maybe I just need to give it more time.



I don't really know where the 6yr mark is in regards to ranking, but I'd say that you could go ahead and take a look at the other things that are out there.  Then again, if you feel that you'd rather wait before taking on something else, theres nothing wrong with that. :ultracool 

Mike


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## Casey_Sutherland (Aug 16, 2005)

Wow, that's a lotta posts quickly. Gotta love us kenpoists. I agree with all of you. Jamie i totally agree with what you are saying about keeping your focus on kenpo. Just wondered what other people's flavours were. I have been toying with some capoeira just for fun. I find that rank is nice but does not sustain itself. A belt only covers 2 inches of my ***, its up to me to cover the rest. Thanks for the viewpoints guyd


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## searcher (Aug 17, 2005)

Mr. Seabrook,  I think you hit on a point that comes up with all styles, not just Kenpo.   Students lose focus on what they are doing so they don't get the full benefit of the style they are training in.   They say that their style is lacking in something, even though they have not been training in it long enough to find out what it does and does not have.    These students are typically the ones that ask "what if" from their first day of training.

Lonekimono, I have not heard of the group to which you refer, but there are other styles of kenpo outside of the Chow/Parker/Tracy/Emperado lineages.   Okinawan Kenpo is a classic example of this.   It could be also that their founder heard the name and thought it was what he wanted to call it.   Just speculation on my part.


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## Doc (Aug 17, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Mr. Seabrook,  I think you hit on a point that comes up with all styles, not just Kenpo.   Students lose focus on what they are doing so they don't get the full benefit of the style they are training in.   They say that their style is lacking in something, even though they have not been training in it long enough to find out what it does and does not have.    These students are typically the ones that ask "what if" from their first day of training.


DING!


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 18, 2005)

Dong!

  ...on a related note...

 I find it extremely annoying when someone visiting my teacher's's (I have more than one school I participate in regularly...as well as those schools I'd like to consider myself a part of but due to life/distance factors cannot) school and interrogate my teachers rather than listening to what they have to say and try to learn what the teacher is trying to teach; then asking questions to which you cannot answer. Too many people "cross train" by walking into another man's house and questioning his reason, method, and application before understanding any of what is taking place. Cross training is extremely beneficial, but only when you have a good enough foothold in what you are already a part of to explore a different way of doing things. Once you have a solid foothold, you can reach for the next rock and it will give you a different perspective on essentially the same goal...getting from point a to point b...defeating enemy one so I can keep living...to get to enemy two.

 IE: If I were to stand in front of someone, take a stance, and thrust my right fist forward, I'd wager most of us would call that a punch. So what style/system am I doing?
  Does it matter?
  Only if ego gets in the way of learning.

 I am thankful for every opportunity I get to cross train with various instructors...some are very, very good. And some are not. In every case, however, I get to take their viewpoint and their way of doing things and compare/contrast it to what and how I am doing things now. Sometimes, their way fits ME better. And I'm intrigued to learn more. I have been blessed by having the opportunity to interact with and learn from some VERY talented and extremely knowledgeable Artists. (I capitalize that word because those people move and teach so fluidly and so thoroughly that what they do is no longer just a means of self-defense or butt whipping; they've transcended the plateau between the Man and his Art, and have become the Art.) I don't throw insults around and I could care less who you don't like and who wants to throw insults at me. All I care about is what you can teach me and how I can earn the right to learn from what you have to teach me.

 This doesn't mean any one system is better than any other. That only means for ME, myself, and I, that particular way of doing things is easier on my body, more efficient at getting what I want done, or more thought provoking/stimulating. No knock on anyone involved, but everyone has their own way of doing things, and to each their own.

  Longwinded, I know, and I apologize if I've said anything inflammatory. This seemed the place for intelligent opinion sharing.


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## Doc (Aug 18, 2005)

IWishToLearn said:
			
		

> Dong!
> 
> ...on a related note...
> 
> ...


Personally, I think you should pause, take a deep breath, and tell us what you really think.

Bong!


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 18, 2005)

Meep!


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 18, 2005)

Hey doc, everthink of doing "standup" (lol)


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## searcher (Aug 18, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> Hey doc, everthink of doing "standup" (lol)


Yeah, it would give you a chance to truly test your skill.   As the inflamed crowd rushes the stage.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 18, 2005)

And the Topic is?


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## lonekimono10 (Aug 18, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> Yeah, it would give you a chance to truly test your skill.   As the inflamed crowd rushes the stage.


 hey searcher not to worry, we can get it on PPV (lol)
    you know its his one lineners(i think i spelled that wrong)
    that has me going, you know doc can be the heney youngman of kenpo.


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## Doc (Aug 18, 2005)

lonekimono10 said:
			
		

> hey searcher not to worry, we can get it on PPV (lol)
> you know its his one lineners(i think i spelled that wrong)
> that has me going, you know doc can be the heney youngman of kenpo.


More like Rodey Dangerfield.


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