# All us martial artists are going to HELL!!!



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 11, 2004)

Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!


http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm


What a bunch of wing nuts!


Regards,


Steve


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## shesulsa (Aug 11, 2004)

Doesn't the bible also say, "judge not lest ye be judged and vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord?"

 I'm going straight to heaven on a sin wagon.


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## Sarah (Aug 11, 2004)

I didnt even realise I was trying to enter the 'Spirit World'.....


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## Andrew Green (Aug 11, 2004)

Me too, But I can sleep soundly now, cause according to there reasoning:

" Such people do not follow the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ but the teachings of the devil, because he is the father of all violence and sin that these men are committing." (the boxing article)

The pope started the crusades, therefore the pope is a follower of the devil, therefore Christianity (Well at least the Catholic church anyways) is based on the teachings of the devil.

So I'll have lots of Company when I get there 

Edit:  Wait a second... me and a bunch of Catholics.... That really would be Hell!!!  (sorry to all offended, just a joke that couldn't be resisted  )


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## Sarah (Aug 11, 2004)

Well I hope there is a BIG Dojo there so we can all fit in..


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## bignick (Aug 11, 2004)

Jesus...please save me from your followers...

well...obviously...i've known this all along...man i sure should have asked more in my deal with the devil...

*sighs*
quote a few scripture verses that could condemn anything...and there we have it...instant condemnation for anybody doing something you don't like.

this is just silly...and it would be absolutely hilarious...if this didn't happen so much...not just to martial arts...but to a lot of things...with the exception of aikido...there are very few martial arts that actually have a real spiritual connection...

and too often people don't realize that three of the major eastern religions that are associated with martial arts- taoism, buddhism and confucianism were actually never meant to be religions...they were merely philosophical ideals..that people built up into these mythic religious figures. It is entirely possible to practice elements of eastern philosophy without following an eastern religion...and as for the martial way being against christian values...what ever happened with those crusades that happened awhile back...

they were a lot worse than learning how to punch...well...this doesn't really belong in this forum...so i'll just clam up now...unless i really have something to say


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## MA-Caver (Aug 11, 2004)

KA





> RATE  Meaning Open Hand, the CHOP can kill, a victim instantly!


 Damn! Hey Ceicei.. no more practicing with YOU anymore... might kill me and I'd burn in hell.

Yes Shesulsa the bible does indeed say that... but bible thumpers like THEM can only see YOUR sins and not their own. They forget the New Testament rule of thumb... 





> From Matthew 7:1-5 -- _1_ Judge not, that ye not be judged. _2_ For with what judgement ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. _3_ And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? _4_ Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and behold, a beam is in thine own eye? _5_ Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then thou shalt see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.  (KJV...of course)



Of *course* they already have done that! It now gives them just cause to print up garbage like what the site says. 

Ceicei noted that they don't give the name of their sect or organization.. hmm Verse five definitely comes to mind here. Sigh. :disgust: 

I know the truth and am sticking with it. So  :2xBird2: to them that can't live what they speak!

 :uhohh:  I'm judging them... no! Damned to hell I am! :anic: 

Hey get that wood out of my eye will ya??


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## Lisa (Aug 11, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm going straight to heaven on a sin wagon.


Got room on that wagon for me?  

Just like Kempo Tess' sig line reads:

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming --WOW--What a Ride~!!!"​​I'm all for that! ​


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 11, 2004)

How does one go to Heavan on a sin wagon?  

Oh...wait...I think I get it.


I note that a bunch of the people here were planning on going to the seventh level of Hell.  Remember that thread?  

Seriously, though...

Here in the Bible Belt of Indiana, this notion that martial arts is demonic is actually alive and well.  People think we're into Buddhism or something.  They assume we burn incense and meditate and teach Eastern philosophical principles that will violate their sensibilities.  Somebody spread a rumor once that my wife was a "moonie".  

I have two ministers now teaching for me who know better...but the first question out of their mouths when they came in was "Do you meditate?"  They wanted none of that.  I told them we were a secular school.  They're comfortable here now, and I use them for reference whenever a Christian with cold feet expresses concern over whether we teach something he/she might find offensive.

Had I more charisma, though, I'd be working that cult thing...and you all would be in my thrall.  I just know it.


Regards,

Steve


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 11, 2004)

Being of Jewish Conviction and Practice. I according to Christians I am on the fast tract to "Hell" anyway so I will continue to practice these EVIL ARTS lol!! 

I could tell you all of my early days as a Ordained Christian Minister and other interesting stories someday.  Oh by the way if SATAN is reading this your entitled to a free lesson at my school click on my link and call me lol!


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## Bammx2 (Aug 11, 2004)

My judo teacher was a minister(r.i.p)

He used to say: "I whoop a$$ in the name of the Lord!"

hhhmmm......I wonder if he still is then?


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## shesulsa (Aug 11, 2004)

:rofl: y'all are killin' me here :rofl:

 Seriously, this is why I no longer go to church - hypocritical bible-thumping.  Meditation - what is prayer, then?  If you have opened your heart and your mind to welcome the spirit of Christ, what have you done but meditate and welcome the most protective spirit into your energy field?  If you pray as Christians were taught to pray in the sermon on the mount, you will retire to your room and recite the Lord's Prayer.  Do you not seek privacy and quiet when you meditate?

 Also (getting out the can opener for the proverbial can o' worms) the Holy Bible is not the only holy scripture.  How about the Torah?  The Torah has been around much longer than the Old and New Testaments and the Torah (I have been told) states a man may do anything required in self defense, even unto death, to save his own life or that of his family.  If there are those of the Jewish faith on the board, could you please verify this?

 My martial arts and spirituality do not in any way interfere with my faith in Christ, nor the other way 'round.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 11, 2004)

I'll go one further Shesulsa... my MA spirituality has actually HELPED my faith in Christ because I was able to get in touch with my inner self via meditation and soul-searching and walla! Found out that I was a lot closer to Him than I thought I was. Sooo  :barf: on those who say different.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 11, 2004)

My Instructor here that I train under is a 3rd Dan in Kenpo and he is a Minister aka Christian.  

Practicing Judaism does not conflict with Martial Arts Training in the sense that We are required to protect our community and our families from our enemies.  

I know Jewish Men that could put an gun shop to shame lol. If you get the Jewish Week Newspaper once in awhile you will see an article or an ad for Martial Arts Training run or owned by a Jewish Person. 

I know and heard of Rabbi's that practice Karate and other Arts. The Torah and the Talmud (Oral Law) does not forbid Military Duty or working in Public Services such as Law Enforcement which requires skills that may involve the use of MA Tactics.


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## 8253 (Aug 11, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm
> ...



Sounds like the fella who wrote that article needs to stay off the drugs while he is reading the Bible.


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## Shade Silverwing (Aug 12, 2004)

Sounds like the excommunicated Southern Baptist who thinks rock music is of the devil.

I tend to ignore these things, although these people do make me ashamed of being a Christian.


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## Tkang_TKD (Aug 12, 2004)

Wait just a second here....If we're all going to hell anyway, why not form the most powerful demonic MMA faction ever known to mankind? LOL

Seriously, it is articles like that one that have made me turn away from any type of organized religions.   If I had to sum up my faith, I guess right now I would fall anywhere from agnostic to athiest.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still a very decent person, and I try to treat everyone with compassion, and empathy. I just don't know what I believe as a result of all the hypocrits I see in organized religion.

Who knows, maybe something will come along that will make me re-affirm faith, but until then, I just don't know


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 12, 2004)

That is the most pathetic website i have seen since www.ashidakim.com not only does is the text and meaning of the site of ver poor quality bordering pathetic and futile but whats with the red text on the fluro green background!:idunno:

Whoever wrote that not only needs a bullet (no disrespect) but they need to find faith beyond the bible and develop a relationship with God rather than convicting others and trying to understand the esoteric living world of Martial Arts...some people hey.

much respect
-andrew


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 12, 2004)

I hate how people think that there religion is the only way a person should live there life. People are idividuals, and have the right to worship any god or buddha they want to. Come to think of it, I have never met nicer people than the ones who practice buddism. I never heard of a buddist monk molesting young children, have you? Most every religion out there has no real proof of anything. The bible's teaching are very clever to not require any sort of proof. Buddism is very realistic, And I find it much more attractive than christianity.
 I was raised as a christain my whole life , and I belived in it until I got a little older and learned about better judgement and to think for my self. I think the bible is a pretty good guideline to live you life by, but eventually there comes a point when it gets a little crazy with all the contradictions. Turn the other cheek, vengence is mine, o ok   
People need to learn to think for them selves, and look at things realisticly. There are alot of great teachings in the bible but to use, but trying to live every word and dismiss all other beliefs , is just as bad as saying KARATE is the best, and other styles suck. Without an open mind you are doomed. There are things I take from the bible, and things from buddism. The bible says have no other gods before me, well guess what, sue me, I dont care. I have an open mind and always will.


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## whalen (Aug 12, 2004)

Does anyone know if there is a mat fee in the Dojang of HELL . Well I guess  my Ex wife will have her  way if this where i am destined to go until then I'll work my Hapkido here,

Also i want to reserve some mat space hahahah........


   Hal Whalen artyon:


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 12, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Practicing Judaism does not conflict with Martial Arts Training in the sense that We are required to protect our community and our families from our enemies.
> 
> I know Jewish Men that could put an gun shop to shame lol. If you get the Jewish Week Newspaper once in awhile you will see an article or an ad for Martial Arts Training run or owned by a Jewish Person.
> 
> I know and heard of Rabbi's that practice Karate and other Arts. The Torah and the Talmud (Oral Law) does not forbid Military Duty or working in Public Services such as Law Enforcement which requires skills that may involve the use of MA Tactics.


Ah - another member of the tribe.  Interested in why you converted - either to being a Christian minister and then coming back, or vice versa.  KT


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 12, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> That is the most pathetic website i have seen since www.ashidakim.com not only does is the text and meaning of the site of ver poor quality bordering pathetic and futile but whats with the red text on the fluro green background!:idunno:
> 
> Whoever wrote that not only needs a bullet (no disrespect) but they need to find faith beyond the bible and develop a relationship with God rather than convicting others and trying to understand the esoteric living world of Martial Arts...some people hey.
> 
> ...


Andrew,
Pathetic website?  Indeed.  I read the ranting and raving about literary agents and book distributors (aka the s**t list).  Great fiction - including geographic locations (Secaucus isn't in NY unless it was moved in the past few minutes).

I've said it before - gotta love the Internet.  KT


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 12, 2004)

Well lol where do I begin.  I could tell you how I started out to refute Jewish Arguements aganist Christianity and I found that I could not lol. So I am going with the winner lol. 

I can at some point refer you to PalTalk and go to the Jewish Rooms and ask about me. My Nic was and is LiveTorah. Just ask they know me. I also have a website I can share later lol. I belong to several Jewish and Noachide Groups on Yahoo.


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## lonecoyote (Aug 12, 2004)

I wonder what belt testing will be like in hell. Do we get neat patches? Is there a black belt club?


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 12, 2004)

Here is the Belt Testing for Black in Hell. If you can beat the Devil you get promoted lol.


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## Brother John (Aug 12, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!
> http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm
> What a bunch of wing nuts!
> Regards,
> Steve


It's unfortunate that such people put a 'face' like this on a fine religion.
OH well. All faiths have'm.
Here's a couple of very thought provoking papers on this subject, it's put out by the "Christian Research Institute"...I liked their final conclusions.http://www.equip.org/store/details.asp?SKU=DM066

http://www.equip.org/store/details.asp?SKU=DM067

check'm out, pretty interesting I think.

Your Brother
John


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## Trent (Aug 12, 2004)

Wing nuts indeed; ignorance, stupidity and fear knows no bounds.  The "shall not judge" reference was an excellent one.  How about the most important?

Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

And long before I personally discarded organized religion after a decades long search for a social pathway to God, I had a Southern Baptist Pastor tell me "Prayer is when you are talking to God.  Meditation is when you quiet your mind and listen to God."


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## Enson (Aug 12, 2004)

what a bunch of weirdos! (the ones who wrote those articles) i'm the music director for our church so i guess i should turn in my position and drive myself to hell!


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## Bammx2 (Aug 12, 2004)

they probably provoked someone on a bad day(a martial artist) and got beat up for it(by a martial artist) and never got over it...............


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 12, 2004)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> they probably provoked someone on a bad day(a martial artist) and got beat up for it(by a martial artist) and never got over it...............


 
:idunno: 
I think it's more fear of the unknown - and of thinking for oneself.  It's so much easier for some people to be told what they should do and should think.  Independent thought requires, well, thought.

This is how wars start.  KT


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## shesulsa (Aug 12, 2004)

Trent said:
			
		

> Wing nuts indeed; ignorance, stupidity and fear knows no bounds. The "shall not judge" reference was an excellent one. How about the most important?
> 
> Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
> 
> And long before I personally discarded organized religion after a decades long search for a social pathway to God, I had a Southern Baptist Pastor tell me "Prayer is when you are talking to God. Meditation is when you quiet your mind and listen to God."


 I really like that.  I really, really like that.  No wonder they don't want to meditate - too busy talkin'.


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## Zepp (Aug 12, 2004)

This site is nearly as funny as "Evil-Exposed" was.  Once upon a time at martialtalk, someone posted a link to www.evilexposed.com, and then the site crashed hours afterward.  I think they couldn't handle all the traffic from us.  It's a pity, that site was hopelessly funny.  They not only ranted about the evils of martial arts, but also of pokemon, and various children's cartoons.

Idiots are fun, aren't they?


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## bignick (Aug 12, 2004)

hold on...i think i'm in the spirit world....

nope...one of these days i'll get there...if i even knew what the hell...and i can say hell cause i guess i'm going there anyways...

i wonder if they allow t-shirts when you're training in hell, instead of gi/doboks...considering it's so hot...


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## Tkang_TKD (Aug 12, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I wonder what belt testing will be like in hell. Do we get neat patches? Is there a black belt club?


 
I would imagine that it would be very high cost, intolerable testing conditions, but ultimately, you can work your way up to 10th DAN, whereas you create your own hell dojo(dojang).

All DAN certificates of course must be signed by Lucifer himself.


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## bignick (Aug 12, 2004)

Tkang_TKD said:
			
		

> I would imagine that it would be very high cost, intolerable testing conditions, but ultimately, you can work your way up to 10th DAN, whereas you create your own hell dojo(dojang).
> 
> All DAN certificates of course must be signed by Lucifer himself.


actually...after thinking about it...i think hell would be a mcdojo...now that's scary....

spending an eternity with 14 year old 4th dans...

ahhhhhh!!!


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## Gary Crawford (Aug 12, 2004)

I'm going to Hell for practicing martial arts?! Whew! that's a relief,I though I was going for all the other things I've done!


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## bignick (Aug 12, 2004)

p.s. some of these responses trying to decide what training in hell would be like...and it got me thinking...what's everyone's "training session from hell"...i've started a new thread under general martial arts..."worst training session ever"


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 13, 2004)

I guess that makes me "doubly doomed"  being a yoga instructor and kenpoist, wow i guess i won't have to turn up the heat my classes anymore!!!!!  This is as bad as the yogis that tell me i violate ahimsa "non-violence" by practicing martial arts.  I tell them the story of the monk, the snake and the villagers, and that usually shuts their pie holes!!!!

Good Journey (to hell) 

Kenpo Mama :ultracool


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## Shodan (Aug 13, 2004)

Oh no!!  Well........if I practice "Heavenly Ascent" really really hard and with much determination until the end of my days, can I change my fate and still go to Heaven?!!   :idunno:  :uhyeah:


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## Baytor (Aug 13, 2004)

I am triple doomed.  I am martial artist, have tattoos and am a police officer, and everyone knows that they beat people up and train to kill them.  My wife is going to hell too I guess, after all, she is also a martial artist and tattoo'ed.  Everyone knows, after all, that it is our outward appearance and practices that send us to hell, not our hearts.

These extremists really annoy me.  They would probably tell me that my wife and I are not "right with God."  I'm a Christian, and my wife is a pastor.  Christianity is not supposed to be about religion.  It's supposed to be about a personal walk with God.  I could rant about this for awhile, but I just try to live by the 2 primary teachings of Jesus.
1- Love the Lord with all your heart and mind and soul.
2- Love your neighbor as yourself.
After that, everything kinda falls into its own place.

I think that people like that are 1) afraid of what they don't understand which is funny in a way.  Honestly, who can truely understand God?  2) They don't bother researching anything, so they can't be wrong.  It is easier to speak out of ignorance and judge people than to actually use our God given intellect to research and decide for ourselves.

It also reminds me of an article from "The Onion".  It was about how the 9/11 hijackers (extremists) were really surprised that they were in hell.  

I'll get off my soapbox now.  :soapbox:


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## Kenpo Mama (Aug 13, 2004)

Shodan said:
			
		

> Oh no!! Well........if I practice "Heavenly Ascent" really really hard and with much determination until the end of my days, can I change my fate and still go to Heaven?!! :idunno: :uhyeah:


Well now that would really be a "Twist of Fate" now wouldn't it!!!!!

Kenpo Mama :ultracool


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## Shodan (Aug 13, 2004)

Ha ha!!  Yes indeed!!  I will see those two techs. in a whole different way now!!

 :asian:


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## marshallbd (Aug 13, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> My Instructor here that I train under is a 3rd Dan in Kenpo and he is a Minister aka Christian.
> 
> Practicing Judaism does not conflict with Martial Arts Training in the sense that We are required to protect our community and our families from our enemies.
> 
> ...


Look at Grandmaster Mike Pick of the Universal Kenpo Federation....He is a practicing Jew and a fine example of a martial artist and human being.  I dont believe this Martial Artists are going to hell bunk.  I am a Martial Artist, and a Christian, who is thankful for his Lord and Savior Jesus Christ! :asian:


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## auxprix (Aug 13, 2004)

I've seen this sight before. These are the type of fundementalists that are only concerned about the fundementals of what other people are doing.

I will agree with them on one point. Martial arts often have some basis in eastern philosophies. 

But they're wrong about everything else. Martial arts is not an outlet for worshiping eastern deities. What it teaches nowadays is parallel to the bible: Respect, personal growth, concern for your health and wellbeing....the list goes on. I really think that the christian God has a few more things to worry about other than people perfecting their side-kicks. If this is something of concern to Him, I would like to direct His attention to all of the people in the world who are killing others in His name.


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## shaolinchi (Aug 13, 2004)

just out of curiousity, do you guys think there are sparring rings down in hell for us?  i mean, if we're going down, we might as well have fun!


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## loki09789 (Aug 14, 2004)

HHJarhead,

THis reads like Fundamental or Born again ideology. If that is the case, there is a serious contradiction in the reasoning. According to that kind of ideology, the ONLY path to salvation is by sincerely asking God/Jesus to be your lord and Savior and opening yourself up to that.

If you have done that, according to this ideology, NOTHING you do will make you 'UNSAVED' to include practicing martial arts, drinking, adultery..... because you have been saved by the Omnimerciful, all forgiving savior - regardless of your flaws and weaknesses.....


Therefore, again based on this view, it isn't a matter of studying or NOT studying martial arts that is the problem it is choosing to be open to "Heretical" ideologies and not choosing to be saved by Jesus....

The idea is that if you have chosen to be saved within the Born again ideological sense, that your acts and thoughts are morally good (based on th biblical interpretation they take) because you are motivated by LOVE of God (Agapei, in the Greek) and not motivated by fear of damnation... doesn't sound like that when you hear to fire and brimstone sermons by some pastors though......

I read this stuff and remember my good friend from NCO school who was educated at a Born again/Bible college and how even he shrugged off some of these simplistic, irrational views to the faith. He really opened my eyes to the postitive side of Christian spirituallity/Baptist/Born again ideology. It is amazing the power of being educated within and across ideological lines....

THough I can respect the devotion to faith, I don't appreciate the "casting the first stone" idea that text like this presents.

If martial artists are "damned" I must really be in trouble because I was a serviceman as well, I practiced and trained and employed skills in the reality of possible killing and such.  According to this logic, all servicemen/women are 'doomed' as well because they are serving their oath to a nation  at the expense of the Mosaic laws of the Ten Commandments (even though there were A LOT of additions to mosaic law as time went on, most Christian types use the TC's like Politic types use the Preamble or the Declaration of Independents when discussing Constitutional interpretation.)


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## SMP (Aug 15, 2004)

please dont cast all christian believers into one pile. It shows as much ignorance as the web page being discussed. - food for thought - In the new testiment Jesus tossed the merchants out of the temple. - the temple was one of the most guarded areas of the city.- hmm -  in Luke 22.36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take _it,_ and likewise _his_ scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.

this was a little before one of the deciples cut off a guards ear with a sword ( most scholars believe a roman short sword, due to time period).


I think these areas of the bible are often forgoten in our hug fest churches.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 15, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> please dont cast all christian believers into one pile. It shows as much ignorance as the web page being discussed. - food for thought - In the new testiment Jesus tossed the merchants out of the temple. - the temple was one of the most guarded areas of the city.- hmm -  in Luke 22.36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take _it,_ and likewise _his_ scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
> 
> this was a little before one of the deciples cut off a guards ear with a sword ( most scholars believe a roman short sword, due to time period).
> 
> I think these areas of the bible are often forgoten in our hug fest churches.



Well, super-fundamentalist christians like the one demonstrated at the website tend to lump people into two piles...the saved and the damned. Nothing we do or say will convince them that we have a strong abiding faith in our Lord Christ like they do. We either believe as they do or are condemned to everlasting fire and damnation. I've met dozens of these types of people and it's all I can do to *not* to unlease my anger and offense upon them for the sheer arrogance that they portray because of the fact that they've been SAVED. They rub me the wrong way...thus the reason for my first post reply on this thread. 
Sad thing is that many of them haven't even been baptised. They believe that just believing in Jesus and asking Him to save them will allow them into the kingdom of heaven. The bible shows differently. 

Jesus advocated peacemaking and non-violence but He wasn't an extremist like Ghandi was, He did indeed created a whip and drove out the moneychangers at the temple. The next day however it was business as usual and He didn't do anything. He stated His opinion of the matter. He didn't stop Paul from cutting off the ear of a Temple Guard but did stop him from creating more havoc, because obviously once was enough and a point was made. Followers will fight if need be. Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2. it would cause unnecessary bloodshed of the people (the poor) at the hands of the Romans. He was making a point there as well. No matter what they do to Him, He will still and did rise above them. 

Mods, am thinking that this thread now probably needs to be moved to the Study or elsewhere, as it's hell and gone ( :idunno: pun) from General Self Defense.. or maybe it is Self Defense...against these morons that want to save the world.


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## Rob Broad (Aug 15, 2004)

This kind of stuff usually makes me laugh.  But if we are going to hell it will be a great party.  I'll meet y'all at the gates and I'll bring the beer.


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 15, 2004)

Religion is a two edged sword due to the emotional attachment one has for it. There are good and bad in every religion on the planet.  

However one should respect the beliefs of others and not infringe or oppose those beliefs that is why we have had so many wars and killings over the eons. 

Your Faith should be practiced in private but in the public or in business you should live by the moral code of your beliefs but do not evanglze or push your views upon others unless approached by someone then it should be discussed in private setting.


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## bignick (Aug 15, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> But if we are going to hell it will be a great party. I'll meet y'all at the gates and I'll bring the beer.



the devil always did have the best music


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## auxprix (Aug 15, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> the devil always did have the best music



True. I'll take the Stones over Creed anyday!


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## loki09789 (Aug 15, 2004)

SMP said:
			
		

> please dont cast all christian believers into one pile. It shows as much ignorance as the web page being discussed. - food for thought - In the new testiment Jesus tossed the merchants out of the temple. - the temple was one of the most guarded areas of the city.- hmm - in Luke 22.36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take _it,_ and likewise _his_ scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
> 
> this was a little before one of the deciples cut off a guards ear with a sword ( most scholars believe a roman short sword, due to time period).
> 
> ...


Not trying to cast christian believers into any piles.  As a catholic, I would say I am a fellow christian believer.  My point was to point out how a very little/narrow education can really make life a contradiction that some just don't want to face.  

The path to spirtitual maturity and faith can start with any of these 'christian schools' (if you choose to follow the christian way all) as long as you just open your eyes to other views and 'Godly gifts' of perspective, understanding, and education on the topic.

The bible (new and old testament) contradicts itself thematically from story to story, translation to translation....but people insist on saying "the bible tells us" instead of speaking honestly by saying "I am using these set scriptures to justify my interpretation..."  Here is another case of just such a thing.

THe point about my friend from NCO school was to show that not all Fundamental Christians are 'wing nuts' but, just like any other segment of society, there are 'wing nuts' and 'reasonable' types.


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 15, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> ..... 1) We either believe as they do or are condemned to everlasting fire and damnation. I've met dozens of these types of people and it's all I can do to *not* to unlease my anger and offense upon them for the sheer arrogance that they portray because of the fact that they've been SAVED. .....Sad thing is that many of them haven't even been baptised. They believe that just believing in Jesus and asking Him to save them will allow them into the kingdom of heaven. The bible shows differently.
> 
> 2) .....but He wasn't an extremist
> 
> 3).... He didn't stop Paul from cutting off the ear of a Temple Guard but did stop him from creating more havoc, because obviously once was enough and a point was made. Followers will fight if need be. Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2..... .



MACaver
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1)  Isn't your statement here like the pot calling the kettle black?  I mean you talk about unleasing your anger at them for their sheer arrogance for their view point.  And then you state our comments about them believing in being saved without being baptized.  How do you know the guy who wrote this isn't baptized or that he or others who haven't been baptized aren't saved   You state "the bible shows differently" I'll be glad to back it up that it doesn't show differently.  For starters read Acts.

2) How was Christ not an extremist?  He turned the religous (Jewish) order of his day completly on it's head, caused people to turn their lives around, and to go out and spread His message (the gospel) to the reaches of their known world.

3)  It was Peter who cut the guards off ear not Paul.  Paul converted/gave his life to Christ on the road to Damascus in Acts.  Jesus knew what He was going to do, He didn't need Peter to try and start anything.  Peter wanted to try and stop Jesus from going to the cross since it didn't fit with his (Peter's) plan, remember "get behind me Satan", Peter was still acting on his own here in the garden.  Jesus showed that He was still in control over things by healing the guards ear, *not * that a point was made that His followers would stand up and fight for Him if need be.  Jesus went willingly to cross for us. 

"Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2....."  There is no need for 2, enough said.  (It would go against the Father's (God's) plan.)

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The bible (new and old testament) contradicts itself thematically from story to story, translation to translation....but people insist on saying "the bible tells us" instead of speaking honestly by saying "I am using these set scriptures to justify my interpretation..."  Here is another case of just such a thing.



Hi Paul

OK I have to bite here, please explain this statement about the contradictions thematically from story to story, translation to translation.  

I think I understand your point if it's that people use verses to prove there points and they don't look at other verses in context to see if their point is valid.  Or they say well it's only the KJV and not the NIV, NASB, the NKJV etc. etc.  However I don't find the bible contradicting.  Otherwise how can we have faith in what it says in that it's inspried by God?

FWIW I've only really struggled with two doctrines that seem to be contradicting to me, however godly men have struggled with them over the past several hundred years and they haven't figured it out as well (I mean people still see both sides of the issue) so I figure why worry about it.  But thats different than you statement about themactically different form story to story.

With respect
Mark

If you want to respond off line that's cool as well, however my PM box is full I'll try and clear it if you want to answer it off line.


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## loki09789 (Aug 15, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Hi Paul
> 
> OK I have to bite here, please explain this statement about the contradictions thematically from story to story, translation to translation.
> 
> ...


God is a god of peace and love yet he spoke to Prophets (I believe Samual) who advised that Jewish troops were to commit genecide on an enemy to the last goat/sheep/cattle... he also wiped the race of man from the planet in a flood saving only Noah. God also destroyed all but one family in Soddom and Gomorrha... One of the most celebrated heros of the old testament (David) was, in essence, a guerrila warrior and (in some eyes) a terrorist... Mosaic law that started with the ten commandments (Godly communicated or written depending on who you talk to) and expanded well beyond that count to include justified murder of a wife guilty of adultery by stoning.

Jesus satisified the Messianic 'signs' with things like riding into Bethelehem on a mule (though the different new testament books will dispute how this event exactly happened) and such yet he didn't meet the expectations of the day that the Messiah was an old school Jewish war hero like old king David. Jesus, in comparing the different gospels, is either the son of man or the son of God. Jesus also at times will tell people that xyz is the way to God and that all will be forgiven with things like deeds being like "unclean rags", yet in another gospel or scene he will say that repentent behavior and reconsiliation is the way to salvation....Jesus' recognition as the true messiah was partly based on the presence of the three magi (read astrologists/pagan/false idol worshippers) with their gifts and divinations/stargazings that predicted Jesus' birth.  Moses used his 'works' to duel against the Pharoahs magi but Jesus says essentially that Miracles are not to be done as parlor tricks to satisfy the whims of unbelievers....

Please don't confuse my 'contradiction' statement to mean that I don't think it is divine or inspirational. It is a mystery for each person to unlock in their own way and devotion can be seen as a demonstration of how seriously a person wants to 'get closer to God' by truly understanding what is or is not there to see, either in the Bible or people....

Too many times people who put faith above all only parrot what they have been pointed to read/understand OR only search/see things that justify what they do....

I say that like the many faces of the Buddhist mountain koan or the various experiences of the Plato's blind men explaining an elephant, we have to explore and explore to really understand.

My favorite quote about this subject comes from "Shadowlands" about C.S.Lewis (Played by Anthony Hopkins): "I don't pray to change God, I pray to change myself...", I would say the same for really reading/knowing the text of the bible and understanding the transliteration history of it.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Aug 16, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Jesus says essentially that Miracles are not to be done as parlor tricks to satisfy the whims of unbelievers....


But it _is_ OK to change water into wine for a wedding.  The Power Transcendant providing hooch for a hootenanny. 
Ah, well - no worries.  There are people in Hell who owe me favors.  Guess all this demonic Eastern stuff will let me call them in one day.
More seriously, people have the right to believe as they wish, and we all have the right to agree or disagree as we choose.  I don't get too upset since no one's religious inclinations has ever prevented me from training or thinking as I do.  Nor do my religious inclinations (or lack thereof) ever prevent others from living/training/thinking as they do.  Ain't America grand?


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 16, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> 1) God is a god of peace and love yet he spoke to Prophets (I believe Samual) who advised that Jewish troops were to commit genecide on an enemy to the last goat/sheep/cattle... 2) he also wiped the race of man from the planet in a flood saving only Noah. 3) God also destroyed all but one family in Soddom and Gomorrha... 4) One of the most celebrated heros of the old testament (David) was, in essence, a guerrila warrior and (in some eyes) a terrorist... 5) Mosaic law that started with the ten commandments (Godly communicated or written depending on who you talk to) and expanded well beyond that count to include justified murder of a wife guilty of adultery by stoning.
> 
> 6) Jesus satisified the Messianic 'signs' with things like riding into Bethelehem on a mule (though the different new testament books will dispute how this event exactly happened) and such yet he didn't meet the expectations of the day that the Messiah was an old school Jewish war hero like old king David. 7) Jesus, in comparing the different gospels, is either the son of man or the son of God. 8) Jesus also at times will tell people that xyz is the way to God and that all will be forgiven with things like deeds being like "unclean rags", yet in another gospel or scene he will say that repentent behavior and reconsiliation is the way to salvation....Jesus' recognition as the true messiah was partly based on the presence of the three magi (read astrologists/pagan/false idol worshippers) with their gifts and divinations/stargazings that predicted Jesus' birth.  9) Moses used his 'works' to duel against the Pharoahs magi but Jesus says essentially that Miracles are not to be done as parlor tricks to satisfy the whims of unbelievers....
> 
> ...



Paul

Thanks for the response, I added numbers to your post to address them.  On the surface I agree these items seem like contradictions however I'll try and explain some of them for you.

If you look at the bible from one end to another as a whole not parts then these things fall into place and are not contradictory.  I don't want to hijak the thread so once again if you disagree with me, find me in error etc. etc. if you want we can take this off line.

1)  On the committing genocide issue/God being a God of peace and love.  God is a holy and rightoues god who knows not sin, we are sinners (this is covered in Romans).  God when he sent the Jews/children of Isreal out into the desert he told them to take the promise land by force, driving everyone out before them, basically killing every living thing.  They didn't obey and within a short time what happened, they reverted back to idol worship (Bael), the OT repeatedly gives examples of God telling Isreal to do this and they  instead did that, leading them astray.  This was the reason for the extermenation, to remove the influenece of the other cultures.

2) Same point as above.  Man had become very sinful so much it grieved God, therefore He sent judgement.  And before anyone says well He shouldn't have done that, He had Noah build an ark that some scholars (I understand) say took well over 100 years to build.  Now rain wasn't around then and no one but his family believed that anything was going to happen, life went on as usual till the day the floodgates opened and the rain came.  God was patient He waited and still no one came.  Again this is an example of how great man's sin was and his rejection of God.

3) God sent the angles to Lot in Soddom, possibly due to Lot being a decent man (he was an elder or some sort of judge/ruler/man of influence in the city), but I think it was to show Abraham that life was precious to Him (this is where Abraham's discourse with God comes in What about 50 good men, 40 good men, 30 good men all the way down to 5 I think)  Out of a city/region (S&G) of 250,000 (aprox. figure I read somewhere) only five were saved.  And actually when you look at what Lot did by offering up his virgin daughters to be raped by the men of the city instead of the angles.  Then I have to wonder how rightoues he really was.  In fact due to his wife wanting to turn around and look back and his daughters later on getting Lot drunk and sleeping with him, I really think it was God shiowing compassion for Abraham than Lot being rightoues.

4) David: when was he a terrorist?  He was a king who screwed up, he was a king who turned away from God for a time and lost his kingdom to his son who raped his women/wives up on top of his palace to show the contempt he had for his father the king.  Absoloam was so prideful that God judged him by having the source of his pride catch on or get caught on a tree branch so that one of David's generals could find him and kill him and put an end to the war.  But David was so blinded by the love he had for his son he didn't want him harmed, which is why the general killed him because they knew David wouldn't.

5) Again the adultry issue is one of wipeing out the sinful influenece.  The person who would end up stoning the women would be the man whom she sinned against.  Think about the message that would send to everyone as well as the person throwing the first stone.  Jesus brought forth the misunderstanding of this issue with the woman "let he who has no sin cast the first stone"  He showed His/God's compassion by His next phrase "Go and sin no more".  The same concept/punishment was given for a habitual unruly child as well.  That man used this to allow for him to commit adultry but yet punish women is not God's fault.

6) The gospels are written from four different points of view for four different groups of people with four different emphasises.  This does not mean they are false, or they did not happen.  If you take an car accident and four different people saw it from different vantage points the stories might seem different but they all describe the same event.  In this case it's the life of Jesus.  He didn't meet the expetations of the Jewish people because they were looking for a different king, one that would set up the kingdom here on earth.  Jesus came to offer a spiritual kingdom at this point in His life.

7) Again why Jesus has different names is because different people were describing Him, and in different times He was describing Himself.  For instance John's gospel is meant to show that Jesus was the Son of God therefore he calls Him the Word "and the Word was God" Jhn.1:1 and John goes on to describe Jesus as diety.  

8) It is rependant behaviour.  It is faith in who Christ is (Peter and the early disciples, the thief on the cross), it is obeying God (Noah, Abraham, Moses) and loving God (David, Joseph) etc. etc.  It's all one in the same fatih = action.  It is knowing that we need the saviour and that we can't get there on our own, through good works, baptism, circumcison, keeping the law, etc. etc.

9) Now who called Moses out?  God.  Who didn't want to go? Moses.  God told Moses to go and show pharoah these things.  It wasn't a simple duel.  God showed the pharoah these things to 1) demonstrate His power to an unbelieving country 2) demonstrate to the Isrealites that His power is real and He had come for His chosen people 3) This also helped Moses to have faith in God and in himself as the leader of the people in the days to come out in the wilderness.  need I go on.  These weren't "parlor tricks"  The crossing of the Red Sea, the eating of mana, water from the rock, God residing in the tent and leading them out in the desert all lead up to them taking the promised land.  And even then the people/Isrealites still grumbled and complained and were afraid of taking the land.  And when they did take the land they still disobeyed and fell away.

10) Coming from my world view as a Christian I can't really agree here.  But that's my opinon.

11) While I somewhat agree here on the parroting issue, I do agree that to often people only say something and don't really look into the true meaning behind what goes on.  However while I have looked into and studied to a small degree other religions, Islam, Morrmonism, JW, 7th Day Adventists, Catholism, Freemasonary, different protesterant faiths, etc. etc. I have found that what I needed more study in was in my basic beliefs in the Christian faith.  I've looked at these other religions through a Christian faith world view (so to speak, I was a Christian first so I know my view is biased on that belief system).

Anyway I don't want to hijak this thread.  I offer up my apoligies if I've offened anyone.  I was wanting to answer Paul's post here and I knew if I didn't do it tonight I wouldn't get back to it.  It's late please forgive any misspellings as I've been typing here by the light of the monitor screen while my wife sleeps. 

With respect
Mark


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## marshallbd (Aug 16, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I've seen this sight before. These are the type of fundementalists that are only concerned about the fundementals of what other people are doing.
> 
> I will agree with them on one point. Martial arts often have some basis in eastern philosophies.
> 
> But they're wrong about everything else. Martial arts is not an outlet for worshiping eastern deities. What it teaches nowadays is parallel to the bible: Respect, personal growth, concern for your health and wellbeing....the list goes on. I really think that the christian God has a few more things to worry about other than people perfecting their side-kicks. If this is something of concern to Him, I would like to direct His attention to all of the people in the world who are killing others in His name.


What people are killing in the name of the "Christian God"?  I see the people waging a "Jihad", but they are doing this in the name of Allah who is not a Christian God.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 16, 2004)

*[size=+1]I found this one especially demonic:[/size]*
*[size=+1][/size]* 
*[size=+1][/size]* 
*[size=+1]TAI-CHI  or Great Ultimate Fist  develops inner power and [/size]**[size=+1]Relaxation [/size]*


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## marshallbd (Aug 16, 2004)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> *[size=+1]I found this one especially demonic:[/size]*
> *[size=+1][/size]*
> *[size=+1][/size]*
> *[size=+1]TAI-CHI  or Great Ultimate Fist  develops inner power and [/size]**[size=+1]Relaxation [/size]*


Scary!


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 16, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 2) How was Christ not an extremist? He turned the religous (Jewish) order of his day completly on its head, caused people to turn their lives around, and to go out and spread His message (the gospel) to the reaches of their known world.
> 
> Mark


Not everyone. We Kung Fu Jews are still around. Ask Mark Weiser - and I'm sure there are others of us here. 

Live and let live. KT


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 16, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Paul
> 
> Thanks for the response, I added numbers to your post to address them. On the surface I agree these items seem like contradictions however I'll try and explain some of them for you.
> 
> ...


With all due respect, please read both Old and New Testament before offering certain things as 'gospel' (yes, pun intended). Also, please keep in mind that my people were, for the most part, ignorant sheepherders, poverty-stricken and oppressed slaves in Egypt - ripe for a new religion and someone to lead them in revolt against their oppressors. 

And - Moses never led us into the Promised Land - it was Joshua, the general, the warrior, Moses' successor, who did. G-d told Moses he would never enter the Promised Land - it was all part of the deal. So, G-d sets us up to be invaders of this land (in your perspective and for argument's sake) and then punishes us for doing what he commanded. Talk about dysfunctional parents and children. You will see this in all religions' interactions with G-d - what was he thinking with the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust - which wiped out the majority of my family and that of my husband?  The World Wars?  All the Middle Eastern Wars?  ANY wars? KT


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## Baytor (Aug 16, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> You will see this in all religions' interactions with G-d - what was he thinking with the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust - which wiped out the majority of my family and that of my husband? The World Wars? All the Middle Eastern Wars? ANY wars? KT


In my opinion, God did not direct men to start these things.  They were done by men.  I think that we can all agree that as a species, man is capable of doing evil things.  What is more, I think that man will often use religion as an excuse to do these things.  IMO, God is even more disgusted with those actions than we are.  After all, He has had to put up with us skrewing up and blaming Him for quite a long time.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 16, 2004)

I think there probably are some people who feel that G-d did direct mankind to start those things.  Personally, I think that most people manipulate their concept of who or what G-d is to suit their needs at the time, thus we're all going to hell because someone doesn't want to fully understand what we do as martial artists.  KT


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 16, 2004)

Here is the problem in talking with others about this issues you have to be careful in using terms or ideas that are very offensive to others. The Jewish People do not accept in any form anything in regards to the Christian Messiah. We also do not use the New Testament in any form.  We can go into great lengths in this dialogue going back to Hebrew text. 

I recommend any Christian to study the Torah in Hebrew you will be surprised on what you will find.

Anyway lol back to my prayers.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 17, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> MACaver
> I added numbers to your post to address them.
> 
> 1)  Isn't your statement here like the pot calling the kettle black?  I mean you talk about unleasing your anger at them for their sheer arrogance for their view point.  And then you state our comments about them believing in being saved without being baptized.  How do you know the guy who wrote this isn't baptized or that he or others who haven't been baptized aren't saved   You state "the bible shows differently" I'll be glad to back it up that it doesn't show differently.  For starters read Acts.



I spoke about NOT releasing my anger at their arrogance and superior attitudes. One fella I knew in particular (among many of the same "type" over the years) kept insisting that baptism wasn't necessary for salvation. That simply calling upon the name of the Lord was sufficent. He also insisted that I didn't KNOW Jesus... I kept telling him that I didn't know HIS Jesus and stalked off before I lost it with him. 
As for the author of the website being baptisied or not?? His rhetoric sounds awfully lot liike those I've encountered before. So mebbe I'm making an **** outta myself or mebbe not. :idunno: One thing for sure... the guy is making an **** outta *himself* (IMO). 



> 2) How was Christ not an extremist?  He turned the religous (Jewish) order of his day completly on it's head, caused people to turn their lives around, and to go out and spread His message (the gospel) to the reaches of their known world.



That Jesus was an extremist is over simplifying the facts about his err... creation of a new faith/religion/belief system. He did use violence in act (moneychangers) and verbally (Peter). To say he was non-violent is a mis-nomer IMO. 
Yes, he did radically change thinking and beliefs of the day but slowly, it was decades before Rome converted and the predominate Jewish faith/people didn't. There were thousands of converts by Paul and others after Jesus and the 12 but as a whole Judaism prevailed in Israel. It was the rest of the world that converted (or not). As for the Jews they should be respected for their own beliefs as we hold on to ours, neither should hold one against the other. 



> 3)  It was Peter who cut the guards off ear not Paul.  Paul converted/gave his life to Christ on the road to Damascus in Acts.  Jesus knew what He was going to do, He didn't need Peter to try and start anything.  Peter wanted to try and stop Jesus from going to the cross since it didn't fit with his (Peter's) plan, remember "get behind me Satan", Peter was still acting on his own here in the garden.  Jesus showed that He was still in control over things by healing the guards ear, *not * that a point was made that His followers would stand up and fight for Him if need be.  Jesus went willingly to cross for us.



Yes, thank you (sincerely) for the correction. I suffer from occasional re-occurring bouts of foot-in-mouth disease.  Peter fought for his Lord out of love (and fear) because of the things that Jesus spoke of during the last supper. He vowed that he would never be seperated or turn from his Lord. Thus the prophecy of the three crows of the (rooster) at dawn.
Peter made his claim to loyalty at Caesarea Philippi after pronouncing Him the Christ. Jesus then told them that He would "suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes" that they would kill Him but He would be raised again on the third day. Peter said in reply: "Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee." Thus Jesus angrily crying out "Gee thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thous savourest not the things that be of God but those that be of men." Matt: 16:21-23 
As for the rest being points that Jesus was trying to (or not) make, it was all speculation on my part and mine alone. After all, each of us view the events before/during/after the Passion in our own ways.  :asian: 



> "Christ then allowed Himself to be scourged and crucified, because He knew if He resisted it would 1. go against God's plan and 2....."  There is no need for 2, enough said.  (It would go against the Father's (God's) plan.)
> Mark



Well, at least we agree upon somethings eh?  :uhyeah: 

~Peace~  :asian:


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## bignick (Aug 17, 2004)

just out of curiosity....how'd this end up in the self defense forum?


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## loki09789 (Aug 17, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Here is the problem in talking with others about this issues you have to be careful in using terms or ideas that are very offensive to others. The Jewish People do not accept in any form anything in regards to the Christian Messiah. We also do not use the New Testament in any form. We can go into great lengths in this dialogue going back to Hebrew text.
> 
> I recommend any Christian to study the Torah in Hebrew you will be surprised on what you will find.
> 
> Anyway lol back to my prayers.


you can stay within the new testament for any surprises.  I have had the chance to talk to Biblical scholars who were Jewish and, though they do not accept New Testament/Messianic text as divine, they are willing to run a compare/contrast and scholarly discipline to the new testament and found their insight and perspective VERY eye opening.  They were the real source that forced me to question/examine the idea of a God of Love and Peace and the only description of God.  If people are limited, flawed and complex.  God, in his perfection, would have to be REALLY COMPLEX at such an ultimate level of exisitence.

Consider the number of translations and contextual meanings of the word "love" from Greek to English.  We use one word for "love" and have to specificy "boyfriend/girlfriend love", "family love" where in the Greek there is "Eros" for lust or physical attraction, "Feliae" for family and fraternal, and "Agapei" for selflessness love or loyalty and devotion/faith love....

Also there is dispute over the whole Judas issue.  The only time that the original text translates to "betray" instead of just "hand over" is in reference to Judas. Why?  Some have argued that Biblical folklore/legends created an assumption on the part of the translators and that the polyglot of Christian sects through out the Mid East/Asian world created far more stories/myths that influenced practice than just the Canonized version of the Bible contains.  The stations of the Cross that Catholics are so in love with is originally a Gnostic practice....Gnostics who were Ideological and ReligioPolitical rivals to the Constantinian powers once Rome became the "Holy Roman Empire."  

The topper is the dispute of the "Virgin" issue in regards to Mary.  Biblical scholars who study sources texts and all the linguistic possibilities have said that contextually the assumed/literal meaning of the original term that has been translated to "virgin" was more likely a common usage to mean "girl" or unmarried young woman/adolescent and not literally 'virgin.  Much like we use Honorifics like Mrs or Miss/Maid which don't literally mean that the woman being addressed is anything other than Married (Mrs.) or not (Miss/Maid).

Boarman,

The thing to remember in referencing ancient peoples actions/views and statements is cultural context and NOT our current values.  Lot offered his daughters up to the mob as the ultimate gesture of hospitallity to the Agents of God that were under his care.  Women were second class citizens within the culture and, though loved and cherished in their own way, would have been 'traded' off for marriage any way.  Bartering their virtue and possibly their lives for the protection of the men/agents of God/Angels within that culture and time would be considered almost noble.

There was no rain in the time of Noah?  I don't know about that, since there really isn't any mention of "NO RAIN" in that portion of the text (at least in the English translations I have seen).  The other thing to scratch your head over is the reference to the entire world being flooded over.... in a time when the American continents, England and parts of Europe would not have been known to a chronicler of that time per se.  Taking hyperbole and exageration as accurate descriptions (especially from translations) instead of just story telling techniques is something to be cautious about.  I am pretty sure that there was rain in Noah's time of possible existence, even if it was rare in a desert environment.  I could discuss each numbered point in detail, but I think this example shows how even a single source translation to English can have multiple interpretations depending on how you are looking at it:  Religious/Theologically, historical/archeological, Symbollic/metaphorical.... Or any combination of these.  Don't even get me going on the Existential Christians and other Theological/Philosophical combinations that have sprouted up over time.  THere are even Feminist interpretations of the Bible (not a jab, just an example of how many and varied the possible views of this piece of text will have.)

You seem to be confusing the thematic seam that you have found that works for you when you read through the Bible.  My point was simply to point out the contradictions.  You have found a way to reconcile them for yourself.  Good.  But, understanding the historical and cultural context of the times described, though doesn't change our own reaction, does put a perspective on things.

I know this is a long one, but one more point:

The mustard plant symbol that Jesus uses has been explained by modern Christians as a nice story of how Christianity will grow like a plant beyond the original seed it started from.....not to the ears/minds of the original audience.

The mustard plant is a bitter and tenaciaous weed that, though valuable for cooking and variety, leaves a bitter after taste that isn't pleasant like a fruit would be.  Also, mustard plants are near impossible to get rid of once they have taken root.

So, to the listeners of this story from Jesus' own lips might take this metaphor to mean that Christianity would be a necessary but bitter spiritual medicine for people AND that once it took root in your soul (as well as a bitter problem for the Roman Empire and as a counter culture to the Jewish Pharetic structure) it would not be exterminated, but would grow inside you (holy spirit) to leave you with no choice but to wrestle with the changes that the 'seed' had set in motion....

That, to me, sounds more realistic and less Disney when you really contemplate how much people struggle with their spirtual lives BUT seem to think that once they have found Religion things are suppose to get easier...NO.  Things don't get any easier, they get harder....but it is the hard that makes it worth it in the long run.


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## loki09789 (Aug 17, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> What people are killing in the name of the "Christian God"? I see the people waging a "Jihad", but they are doing this in the name of Allah who is not a Christian God.


Actually, Muslims, like Jewish people, use the first five (Pentuegent Sp?) books of the old testament as part of their religious textual foundation.  Christians too.  Call it the Koran, Torah or Bible but we are all related by a common religious lineage... there are even scholars who try to say that the idea of Ressurection (Karma) may have been an "Eastern" concept introduced to Jewish people through trade contact... so the four largest religions might all be linked in a loose way.

All three religions share that common root.  

There have been and are folks around the world (most notably was the Protestant/Catholic fighting in Ireland/N.Ireland, Anti abortionist assassins/bombers...Christian cultists who murder children through abuse....) using the name of Christian God to justify killings.

What is really a shocker is that Muslims learn about New testament issues and figures (Mary, Emmaculata and Jesus as prophet - but not messiah) and come to repect them.  Unfortunately, the global association with the word "Muslim" is with Terrorism.  Like any other group, the majority of those who fit under the heading of "Muslim" are far from the terrorist types that have gained it the false advertising it has gotten.


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 17, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Actually, Muslims, like Jewish people, use the first five (Pentuegent Sp?) books of the old testament as part of their religious textual foundation. Christians too. Call it the Koran, Torah or Bible but we are all related by a common religious lineage... there are even scholars who try to say that the idea of Ressurection (Karma) may have been an "Eastern" concept introduced to Jewish people through trade contact... so the four largest religions might all be linked in a loose way.
> 
> All three religions share that common root.
> 
> ...


We refer to these as the Pentateuch, or the Five Books of Moses. One commentary I've read states that [the author feels that] the Torah is a book about humanity's understanding of and experience with G-d.  

We Jews also have our fundamentalist groups, the Orthodox and Chasidic sects. The majority of those who fit under the heading of "Jews" are far from the types who wear the hats, long coats and beards - even in Israel.

So, assuming the common ground of the Pentateuch for us all, why are there those of us who are condemned and others not?  KT


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## loki09789 (Aug 17, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> We refer to these as the Pentateuch, or the Five Books of Moses. One commentary I've read states that [the author feels that] the Torah is a book about humanity's understanding of and experience with G-d.
> 
> We Jews also have our fundamentalist groups, the Orthodox and Chasidic sects. The majority of those who fit under the heading of "Jews" are far from the types who wear the hats, long coats and beards - even in Israel.
> 
> So, assuming the common ground of the Pentateuch for us all, why are there those of us who are condemned and others not? KT


If I knew the anwer to that I would have a better chance of being on the "going up" list than the "going down list" 

Seriously, as I said before, for me, the truth comes as "Faith in works." If I was in Bosnia and saw a community soup kitchen serving those in need, I would not be able to tell if the people working together were Muslim, Christian/Catholic, Jewish.... because the actions of humane/common good are universal to all the major religions. 

God/Jesus/Allah reserved judgement for him/them to pass not me. I can hope for the best quality life for people, recognize and be angry/pained when I see the wrongs that happen, but according to my faith (and most Judeo-Christian root faiths, including Islam) it is my role to live as best I can and make myself available to share my 'joy' with others and that is all.

Beyond that, I am not here to judge/banish/punish or accuse others of being 'wrong' or 'right' but to be a living example. Do I always do that? No. Do I always remember this stuff? No. But I keep trying to find divinity in people NOT WIELD IT AT THEM like a sword of judgement. People confuse evangelism (the act NOT the faith) and being apostate with being 'righteous' and judgemental. 

I would say that the old testament view that Satan is not one evil being but as allegorical "adversary" (the term translates as a title NOT a character name until later associations are made through myth building) allows us to recongize that people can be "satan" like because they don't cooperate but focus on trying to trick and fool others because of the dark side of human motives (greed, lust, fear, envy....). Religious groups like any other groups can be kept together because of a common positive goal or a fear of a common enemy. Those groups who see fit to use fear to control and bond their groups are usually the strongest to 'damn' others instead of cooperating and recognizing the divinity in them as individuals.

I suggested an interfaith event with a local Mosc after 911 to show how terrorist/Muslims are not representative of the Muslim community and the fear factor was so large it got killed before it got off the ground. Same with the idea of working with a Synagogue.... If your faith, personal or organizational, isn't strong enough to sit with the "tax collectors and sinners" so to speak, maybe you have some deeper searching to do. Needless to say, I have opted to take advantage of one on one contact with other faiths to find understanding instead of groups... too risky to develop a 'heretic' reputation.

Religion was a political power historically longer than it has been a spiritual body, so there is still the remnants of 'nations' and borders in how it is viewed and practiced.  I still hear stories of how the Irish Catholics in South Buffalo were told to cross the street and stay away from the stray Protestant or Jew if you came across them on your walk to or from school....


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## Mark Weiser (Aug 17, 2004)

Okay here is one of the Main differences between Christianity and Judaism. It is in the Area of Evangelism. 

Chirstians are mandated to spread "THE GOSPEL" on the other hand most Jewish people would prefer to be left alone and worship and live their lives in quiet and in peace seeing no need to evangelize. However there are no problems with someone wanting to convert to Judaism. They must follow a strict outline on becoming Jewish as set by the Rabbi of the Shul and or Rabbincial Counsels.


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## Kane (Aug 17, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm
> ...


What's your point? There are nuts and idiots in all beliefs and religions.


There are a lot of atheists who think we should kill ourselves because we are overpopulating the planet. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot more looney than anything any Christian has said.


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## Ceicei (Aug 17, 2004)

Kane said:
			
		

> What's your point? There are nuts and idiots in all beliefs and religions.
> 
> 
> There are a lot of atheists who think we should kill ourselves because we are overpopulating the planet. I don't know about you, but that sounds a lot more looney than anything any Christian has said.


You do have a point. Whatever "group" of people there are, there will always be found some who are radicals/extremists/different and doesn't fit with the group.  The only problem is when other groups view these specific people as representative of the group.

- Ceicei


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## Tony (Aug 18, 2004)

Where on earth did this ignorant sh@t come from? How can Martial Arts be evil if they are taught by humble righteous people. Traditional Martial Arts and religion goes hand in hand. Take the Shaolin Monks who as well as practice Martial Arts are devout buddhists. Martial Arts only become evil when it is misused by those who do not have the right mindset, or even have bad instructors.


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 18, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> just out of curiosity....how'd this end up in the self defense forum?




Good question.  I didn't put it there, if I recall.


Regards,


Steve


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 18, 2004)

I suppose it should probably be moved to the Study, assuming it hasn't run it course for the most part.  KT


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## DoxN4cer (Aug 18, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm
> ...



What a bunch of fundamentalist CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tim Kashino


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 20, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Not everyone. We Kung Fu Jews are still around. Ask Mark Weiser - and I'm sure there are others of us here.
> 
> Live and let live. KT



KT

I'm sorry, I didn't mean everyone in the sense of the whole Jewish race, world etc. etc. I meant certain individuals who beame His followers who changed a direction in thier life.  Turning from following the religous order/method they had been following to another way. 

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 20, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> With all due respect, please read both Old and New Testament before offering certain things as 'gospel' (yes, pun intended). Also, please keep in mind that my people were, for the most part, ignorant sheepherders, poverty-stricken and oppressed slaves in Egypt - ripe for a new religion and someone to lead them in revolt against their oppressors.
> 
> And - Moses never led us into the Promised Land - it was Joshua, the general, the warrior, Moses' successor, who did. G-d told Moses he would never enter the Promised Land - it was all part of the deal. So, G-d sets us up to be invaders of this land (in your perspective and for argument's sake) and then punishes us for doing what he commanded. Talk about dysfunctional parents and children. You will see this in all religions' interactions with G-d - what was he thinking with the Crusades? The Spanish Inquisition? The Holocaust - which wiped out the majority of my family and that of my husband?  The World Wars?  All the Middle Eastern Wars?  ANY wars? KT



KT

I once again stand corrected if I wrote that Moses led them into the promised land.  I know that Moses never crossed over, however up until that time he was leading them out in the desert/wilderness and that was what I meant.

On your statement about them being oppressed slaves and being ripe for a revolt.  I dissagree in a sense.  I believe that G-d had to show not only the egyptians (the oppressors) but the slaves (Jews) as well His power through the miracles (i.e. plagues, etc. etc.)  at first they went from small miracles that only the people at the place (turning the shaft into a snake) could see to a much broader wider scale so that everyone (oppressors and slaves could see) i.e. turning of the Nile to blood, the frogs, locusts, slaying of the first born etc. etc.

However when faced with a threat (at the parting of the Red Sea) they grew afraid Exd. 14:10-13.  So I don't think they were ever really ready to have a revolt, or that they couldn't.  Rahter it was G-d who chose the time and the place to lead them out.

Dysfuncational kids not parent.  (And I don't just mean the Jews, I mean in a whole world view, everyone.)  Again the Crusades, the Inquistion, the Holocust, man's doing not G-d's.  I don't believe that G-d told Hitler to try and wipe out the Jewish race, I don't believe G-d told a bunch of priests to torture people of other faiths (Christian) for not believing in the pope or the Catholic church, or to fight in the Crusades as well.

KT, Mark W. and anyone else of Jewish faith, I understand completely that we will see things written in the bible differently.  I was responding to a post about contridictions in the bible and trying to explain a different view point (mine) that there aren't contradictions. I do not in any way mean to imply that Jewish people were/are less importance or whatever (I can't find the words).  I mean no disrespect, I have no hard feelings, I not a Jewish hater, etc. etc.

As I said before, I apologize if I offended anyone and I apologize to you (KT)about bringing up something that would cause you hurt, in especially in light of your loss of your husband. 

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 20, 2004)

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> In my opinion, God did not direct men to start these things.  They were done by men.  I think that we can all agree that as a species, man is capable of doing evil things.  What is more, I think that man will often use religion as an excuse to do these things.  IMO, God is even more disgusted with those actions than we are.  After all, He has had to put up with us skrewing up and blaming Him for quite a long time.



Baytor

I agree totally.

Mark


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## kenpo tiger (Aug 20, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> KT
> 
> I once again stand corrected if I wrote that Moses led them into the promised land. I know that Moses never crossed over, however up until that time he was leading them out in the desert/wilderness and that was what I meant.
> 
> ...


A great deal of my husband's family were lost in the concentration camps, as well as a good portion of my relatives.  (My husband is alive and well and playing golf at the moment!)

As to the Holocaust, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition.  I understand your point that G-d wasn't the one who perpetrated those crimes against humanity.  (As we all know, there were more than Jews slaughtered during the Holocaust.)  However, there were (and still are) many people who invoke G-d's name in order to justify their actions.  Whether you believe that G-d is the one who determines what happens is, of course, a personal matter and is irrevocably linked to your religious beliefs most times.

Isn't it interesting that G-d chose Moses, of all people.  He had a speech impediment and was a humble sheepherder.  He was also as superstitious as the next person.  That he was the instrument through which G-d chose to manifest his displeasure is very interesting, don't you think?  KT


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## DoxN4cer (Aug 20, 2004)

Did anybody send an e-mail to the link provided on the page? I did.  No reply to date.  

Tim Kashino


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## Baytor (Aug 20, 2004)

Moses wasn't just a sheppard, if I remember correctly (as far as the stories go).  He was brought up in the royal court.  He knew people there.  He may have had some sort of military training as a result.  Yes, he was a very humble man, he had a speach problem.  He had a very bad temper.  He also was an educated and trained man.  I think he is a very inspiring character.


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## bignick (Aug 20, 2004)

I wrote a paper along these lines my freshman year in college..we had to write a paper summing up our religious beliefs..the gist of mine was that i was raised a christian and as i got older i saw things wrong with how the church was run, and since atheism is less about there not being a god, but believing man can do better(i.e. faith in man)...i summed myself up as an atheist who as lost faith in my religion, so there's only one other place to turn...these problems all stem from western religions belief that there is only one true way and if you don't follow that way your damned...i'm a christian, lutheran to be exact...and i believe in my G-d and Jesus, if you don't are you going to hell?  my teaching could lead me to believe that...but my teaching also tells me that judgement is reserved for G-d alone so i'll leave it up to the one in charge when in comes to that...

but i remember having a discussion when i was around thirteen...i think it was sunday school...but i can't remember...anyway...the guy that was teaching(a laywer) asked us this...if a little budhhist boy is living in remote part of asia...farming, etc...and never even hears about christianity...lives a good life and dies...does he go to hell?


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## Ceicei (Aug 20, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> but i remember having a discussion when i was around thirteen...i think it was sunday school...but i can't remember...anyway...the guy that was teaching(a laywer) asked us this...if a little budhhist boy is living in remote part of asia...farming, etc...and never even hears about christianity...lives a good life and dies...does he go to hell?


No, he doesn't go to hell.  The God I believe takes into consideration the hearts and minds.

- Ceicei


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## TonyM. (Aug 20, 2004)

At least there will be plenty of preachers for me to beat up when I get there.


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## Insedia_Cantharis (Aug 20, 2004)

AI! :snipe2:   That seems kinda meen....:tantrum: Don't worry, I believe in god, and I'm pretty sure this is just some sort of christianized temper-tantrum.:tantrum:


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## bignick (Aug 20, 2004)

yes i agree he doesn't go to hell...i guess there's only one real way to settle this...


anybody want to volunteer to find out whether or not martial artists go to hell?

of course, reporting back to us might be a problem


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 21, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> 1) I spoke about NOT releasing my anger at their arrogance and superior attitudes. One fella I knew in particular (among many of the same "type" over the years) kept insisting that baptism wasn't necessary for salvation. That simply calling upon the name of the Lord was sufficent. He also insisted that I didn't KNOW Jesus... I kept telling him that I didn't know HIS Jesus and stalked off before I lost it with him.
> 
> 2) That Jesus was an extremist is over simplifying the facts about his err... creation of a new faith/religion/belief system. He did use violence in act (moneychangers) and verbally (Peter). To say he was non-violent is a mis-nomer IMO.
> Yes, he did radically change thinking and beliefs of the day but slowly, it was decades before Rome converted and the predominate Jewish faith/people didn't. There were thousands of converts by Paul and others after Jesus and the 12 but as a whole Judaism prevailed in Israel. It was the rest of the world that converted (or not). As for the Jews they should be respected for their own beliefs as we hold on to ours, neither should hold one against the other.
> ...



MACaver
I still haven't figured out how to put multiple quotes in a post so I added numbers to your post to address it (and edited it).

1) I reread your orignial post and you did state aboout you not releasing your anger.  What I was trying to bring out was in order not to release your anger there must be anger there in the first place to release (over their superior attitudes towards you).  And then you stated the comment about baptisim which I took as a superior attittude (statement on your part) hence the comment on calling the kettle black.  I apologize if I misunderstood what happened or the intent of your post.

And it could be that I was sensitive in reading your post about the babtisim comment because I have had the same thing done to me but saying I must be baptized and that I was damned to hell because at the time I wasn't. ( I had planned not to be baptized just so I could show them I was right and they were wrong, thumb my nose at them so to speak when standing at the pearly gates.  Naana Naana Naaaana (think of little boy whine here with thumb on nose fingers out stretched pointing at my tormentors and you get the idea)   )  Then I came to my senses, I had a rebellious attitude.

2) But yet to call Jesus violent I would have to disagree with.  I agree about throwing out the money changers that was an violent act (one of rightoues anger IMHO), however I wouldn't use one recorded instance to say he had an anger problem (just kidding) or that he was violent.  When I think of people who are extermemists and are violent I think of people who causing change by force (9/11, Moa Se Tung (?), Suicide bombers, Stalin, Hitler etc. etc.).  Verbally speaking out to Peter to correct him/prove a point/teach him etc. I don't still as a violent act.

But I agree with the rest of your post.

Take care
Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 21, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Boarman,
> 
> 1) The thing to remember in referencing ancient peoples actions/views and statements is cultural context and NOT our current values.  Lot offered his daughters up to the mob as the ultimate gesture of hospitallity to the Agents of God that were under his care.  Women were second class citizens within the culture and, though loved and cherished in their own way, would have been 'traded' off for marriage any way.  Bartering their virtue and possibly their lives for the protection of the men/agents of God/Angels within that culture and time would be considered almost noble.
> 
> ...



Paul

Thanks for the response, well though out.  I edited out the first part since you weren't addressing me but very good points (which I agree with).  I added numbers to your post so I could address them.

1)  I agree with your point here totally about this being what Lot was suposed to do, culturely.  And I wasn't trying to put my values on it.  What I was referring to was that we as humans sin and we gravitate towards sin which causes us to sin more.  This is where I was coming from.
a) Lot chose to go and live in Soddom, when Abraham gave him the option of where to live he chose what appealed to his eye and it was Soddom (that region).  
b)He became a figure of importance there.  In a city that was so corrupt and sinful that G-d was going to judge it he's someone of importance.  Therefore he was corrupted as well (maybe not in all of the same sins but... there was influence).
c) When the angelic beings show up at his door he offers his daughters.  Culturely this is the right thing to do, however he was in the presence of these beings and yet he is not leaning on G-d or His hosts for protection but on himself.
d) Lot's wife wanted the old life and turned around during the destruction.  Again after what went on during the night she still disobeyed (sinned) and was judged.
e) Lot's daughters after the event get him drunk and sleep with him (big sin here).  
I think Lot kind of failed as a father, and he was saved from the event/judgement of the city because of Abraham or G-d wanting to prove something to Abraham, not because Lot was good and deserved to be saved.  I was defending my point of view that to me this wasn't a contradiction of G-d being unmerciful in His judgement of the city.

Throughout the OT there are plenty of examples of we (human beings) relying on our own powers/ways/understandings to try and do G-d's work.  Anywhere from wars/fighting wars to starting new nations (Ishmal and Issac). 

2) Sorry my mistake, Paul you are right here.  There is no mention of rain/no rain in the OT prior to the flood.  Now here I was putting forth my views/vaules and using the OT.  I believe in a literal six day creation, and that the flood caused the world we live in to be radically changed into what we have today.  Therefore I don't believe in the localized flood theory.  There are sciptures that do back this up, however we (humans) don't know for sure and there are many different beliefs on this event(s) the creation and the flood.

I agrue from a non contradictory/no contradiction stance on the bible.  So in that case I have had to defend why there was a flood and these other tough points of view etc. etc.  

Paul I don't use a single source translation, I have used many different (albeit) English translations and read different source books etc. etc. on these subject matters.  I believe you should use all reasources at a person's disposal to learn about the subject.  And I agree there are many different views on these subjects.

3) Yes I have found a Thematic seam (Paul on a side note. I really enjoy your posts you come up with some cool phrases/words/points of view etc. etc.   ).  But what did I confuse, did I put forth confusion?  Or are you saying that I'm confusing my thematic seam and using it to interupt the bible.  If so than you are probably right as I stated above.

4)  Good point here, the Camel going through the Eye of the Needle is a good example as well.

5)  This of course is spectulation on what the hears of this parable/story/teaching thought.  But....  Not everyone who heard this story surely became a convert to Christ.  While this is a good example for the geniune converts there are plenty of people where the seed didn't doesn't take root.  Hence the parable of the seed and the different types of soil.

I'm not sure if I understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that the Holy Spirit (the seed) is planted in everyone and causes us (humanity) to wrestle with the changes brought about because of it?  Or are you using this to describe a more localized application in individual believers in Juseus Christ?

6)  From this point I take it you are refering to a more localized application and I would agree with you.  Things do get harder and it's worth it.

Take care Paul
Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 21, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> A great deal of my husband's family were lost in the concentration camps, as well as a good portion of my relatives.  (My husband is alive and well and playing golf at the moment!)
> 
> As to the Holocaust, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition.  I understand your point that G-d wasn't the one who perpetrated those crimes against humanity.  (As we all know, there were more than Jews slaughtered during the Holocaust.)  However, there were (and still are) many people who invoke G-d's name in order to justify their actions.  Whether you believe that G-d is the one who determines what happens is, of course, a personal matter and is irrevocably linked to your religious beliefs most times.
> 
> Isn't it interesting that G-d chose Moses, of all people.  He had a speech impediment and was a humble sheepherder.  He was also as superstitious as the next person.  That he was the instrument through which G-d chose to manifest his displeasure is very interesting, don't you think?  KT



KT
I'm sorry for your loss.

Many times people invoke G-d's name to do thier own will.  The history of the christian church, and the world are full of such examples.  Because man does these things doesn't mean that G-d did, and I tend to speak out when I feel people are blaming G-d for our doings. On this large scale wars and such it's easily seen, but it's on the smaller scale the stuff under the radar that we (people in general) need to be careful of.

I've worked with individuals who use the bible to teach that Black people are the scourge of the earth and spawn of the devil and the white man is G-d's chosen race.  That the Jewish people lost that title when Christ was crucified and the anglo (white) was chosen instead.

I've worked with people who justify their sins by believing they are saved because they said a prayer when they were a child and have just lead a sinful life cheating on their spouses, drinking and whoring around.

And of course we've seen how people invoke G-d's name to blow up buildings and themselves so they can get to paradise.

As to G-d choosing Moses, your right it is interesting.  Fact is isn't it interesting that prior to Moses he choose Abraham and that from him would come the blessing and a great nation.  G-d choose to create the nation (the Jews) of Israel prior to the enslavement of the people and Moses. I don't think he was an instrument to display His displeasure though.  Rahter he was chosen before he was any of that to be the one who would lead His chosen people out of bondage and to show the power of G-d.

This thread and the posts got me to reread some of the passages/chapters in the OT about the exodus of the people and the wanderings in the desert/wilderness.  Several times in the various books of the OT the (to use Paul's phase) thematic seam is G-d chose, and that His power was to be displayed so that all of the nations (in that area, and in later times ours) would know of His glory.  The creating of the Jewish race/nation, the exodus from Egypt, the taking of the promised land all are part of it (IMHO).

I think I have finally answered/responded to anyone who qouted me. Yeah!  Now I can go onto another thread and see what else has been going on.

With repsect
Mark 

Mark


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## MA-Caver (Aug 21, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> MACaver
> I still haven't figured out how to put multiple quotes in a post so I added numbers to your post to address it (and edited it).
> 
> 1) I reread your orignial post and you did state aboout you not releasing your anger.  What I was trying to bring out was in order not to release your anger there must be anger there in the first place to release (over their superior attitudes towards you).  And then you stated the comment about baptisim which I took as a superior attittude (statement on your part) hence the comment on calling the kettle black.  I apologize if I misunderstood what happened or the intent of your post.
> ...



Mark, God Bless you for keeping this Civil... heh heh. 
Hopefully I'm not going to veer off topic by explaining myself and how I deal with people on a one to one basis... Yes I get angry, it's a human emotion and mine... bwa ha ha alll mine... at least when I feel it anyway... it's yours when you feel it and so on with everyone else... then we're responsible for whatever feelings we have.  I take umbrage over anyone who thinks they're superior over me and tries to tell me something that my heart and soul has acknowledge via the Holy Spirit to be right...is wrong. No man (  or woman) is better than me and no man is worse than I am. We're all equal...just better at DOING somethings than others.  So when anyone tries to tell me (nasally voice) "I'm going to heaven and you're going to hell because you don't believe in Jeesus the way ah dew" Then yeah I'm going to get angry with them and :bird:. It's just all  :bs:      
(heh, heh... been waiting for a thread where I can use *that* one...heh heh heh )

"They" (funda*mental*ist) have given me that various "you must be baptised" or you don't need to be baptised (all the while living a double standard) ... and it's the delivery that made it a _superior_ attitude. 
Either way, we can go on and on about this and it could use a different thread to do so....

(back to topic! )
We as Martial Artists, respect one another for our various choices in the myriad of arts out there to learn. We compare and we examine and share notes with one another here. We do our best to do THAT civil and at times tongue in cheek. When you get an outsider coming in and saying that "we're DAMNED TO HELL!" because we have made the choice to study something that actually HELPS us become better human beings (in it's own way)... we're gonna take it personally because we *KNOW* differently. 

The thread is about judgement upon others when ignorance is all they got to go on. Naturally we're going to take offense to it, especially when they (fundies) refuse to even try or study it (MA) a bit more before passing judgement upon those who do know and live the arts. 

Mebbe we'd like to be there when God passes His judgement upon them and then again mebbe we wouldn't want to.... it'd be just too heart breaking to (for??) us. Then again looking at the scheme of things and knowing time is infinite to Him... God may just judge us individually one at a time and everyone else is waiting on the outside looking in.  ...Sir, take a number and have a seat... Next soul please.  We won't know until it happens to us.


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## KenpoTess (Aug 21, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

Thread Moved to Study for obvious reasons 

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


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## heretic888 (Aug 26, 2004)

I will only comment briefly, so here goes:

1) I don't believe in a "Hell" as most people understand the term, so it doesn't particularly concern me whether I go "there" or not.

2) Martial arts are a positive means of growth and personal development in the lives of their students, which is more than I can say for fundamentalist strands of religion.

3) If I go to Hell for practicing martial arts, then I will gladly go to Hell for practicing martial arts. If God has a problem with that, then he is a deity unworthy of reverence in the first place. Actually, if a deity is sending people to a pit of eternal torment because they don't "believe in" what he wants them to, then he is doubly unworthy of reverence.

4) I personally don't believe either "Jesus" or "Moses" actually existed historically, so the particulars of their lives are (to me) irrelevant.

Laterz.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Aug 26, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Check this out...we're all going to HELL!!!
> 
> 
> http://www.bible-truths.org/tracts/martia~1.htm
> ...




Yep I agree with you Steve. What a bunch of nuts....

Look out Waco here comes another bunch of nuts for the barrel.

The scarey thing is that there are prob. some people who believe this crap they put up about us.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## bignick (Aug 26, 2004)

umm...the whole point of this thread...at least from what i've seen is how silly and ridiculous that page was...i don't think too many people here think they are going to hell for practicing martial arts


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Aug 26, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> umm...the whole point of this thread...at least from what i've seen is how silly and ridiculous that page was...i don't think too many people here think they are going to hell for practicing martial arts



I agree with you I dont think any of us here will take it seriously.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## bignick (Aug 26, 2004)

in fact, i can't really think of anyone that thinks they're going to hell in general...


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## Flatlander (Aug 26, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> 4) I personally don't believe either "Jesus" or "Moses" actually existed historically....


Really?  Why not?  I don't suppose I have any 'good' reason to believe they did either, however, the nature of my doubt doesn't go quite that far.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 26, 2004)

I'm sorry, but that page is just funny to read!  The sad thing is that, in my opinion, it was probably meant in all seriousness.  I'm sure those beliefs are taken seriously by many fundies.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Aug 26, 2004)

RandomPhantom700 said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but that page is just funny to read!  The sad thing is that, in my opinion, it was probably meant in all seriousness.  I'm sure those beliefs are taken seriously by many fundies.




The scarey thing is you are right. Some nut job actually believes it.


Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian:


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## cblaze230 (Aug 26, 2004)

i did not read all the previous posts so please excuse me if its already been mentioned. if i  believed any of those views or ideas i am happy knowing that at least i will be in the company of my peers, martial artists and fellow sinners and have good time too!!:ultracool


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## heretic888 (Aug 26, 2004)

> Really? Why not? I don't suppose I have any 'good' reason to believe they did either, however, the nature of my doubt doesn't go quite that far.



Well, that's a bit off-topic, really...

But, suffice to say, I have explained my doubts about the existence of Jesus historically in at least two other threads. I have similar doubts about Moses, but they are more difficult to discuss because he was supposed to have lived so much farther back in history than Jesus.

The main reason is that there is no more reason to beleive either of them, or the events surrounding them in the Bible, existed than there is to believe that Heracles actually existed and performed the 12 feats. Its just cultural bias, and the Judeo-Christian backdrop of our culture, that holds others to believe otherwise.

That's my take anyway. Laterz.


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## TonyM. (Aug 28, 2004)

So the crux of all of the above is I may have to re-think practicing beat the money changers fu?


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