# Unbreakable combat cane and walking stick? Which one?



## kip42

I usually carry a BO staff when hiking. This can not allways be carried without getting kicked out of somewhere for having a weapon. 

I want a handicap looking cane for places that I cant have anything else such as an air plain, no carry zone, etc. I want to put a rubber bottom on and use it for defense. This needs to look like a tradition cane so I can take it anywhere. Who makes the best ones? Are any unbreakable?

Found these

http://www.combatcanes.com/Why_Canes_.html

I want an unbreakable walking stick for when I can have a firearm and the stick will not matter. I have found these two. This would be carried where they area is no restrictive.

http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html


http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html

Any other ideas?


I am taking a few classes for cane specific fighting.


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## Skpotamus

The cold steel city stick would probably be my first choice, although I do know at least one LEO who mentioned that he'd arrest anyone carrying a CS city stick.  

Your best bet would probably be a rattan one.  I'd probably buy one of the 54" staffs that the dog brothers sell, cut it to length, add a handle to it, oil it so it's stronger and heavier and then add some polypropylene to it so it looks like a nice walking cane.  http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=119  If the sticks can last through them beating each other full force with them pretty regularly, it should last for most stuff you're going to do with it.


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## Ken Morgan

http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/cat_walkingsticks.htm

or one of his tanjo's as well.


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## Chris Parker

Why do you need it? Not why do you want it, but based on your post, why do you need it?



kip42 said:


> I usually carry a BO staff when hiking. This can not allways be carried without getting kicked out of somewhere for having a weapon.



If you get kicked out for carrying a weapon, don't go in there with a damn weapon! Don't look for ways to circumvent the rules or the law, you have no need.



kip42 said:


> I want a handicap looking cane for places that I cant have anything else such as an air plain, no carry zone, etc. I want to put a rubber bottom on and use it for defense. This needs to look like a tradition cane so I can take it anywhere. Who makes the best ones? Are any unbreakable?



Why, are you expecting to get attacked every three seconds? Seriously, get some reality, and lose the paranoia. Personally I will have no part in humouring or encouraging you.



kip42 said:


> I want an unbreakable walking stick for when I can have a firearm and the stick will not matter. I have found these two. This would be carried where they area is no restrictive.



Seriously? You will have a cane for when you can have a gun and don't need it?!? That doesn't even make sense! Lose the fantasy, lose the paranoia, and get some reality.



kip42 said:


> I am taking a few classes for cane specific fighting.



Normally I'd say good, but here, I will have no part in encouraging you. Point your instructor towards this thread, and the others you have posted, if they still want to teach you, fine. Personally, I'd sit you down for a very long chat, and see what your future may hold.


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## Thesemindz

Chris Parker said:


> Personally I will have no part in humouring or encouraging you.



I was thinking the same thing myself. He keeps posting nearly identical threads week after week that basically fall into two categories.

1. I want a stick I can carry around that no one will realize is actually a weapon.
2. I want a "real" sword, although I don't intend to use it in any way.

I don't think he is taking classes. I think he might be watching DVDs, but that's not at all the same thing.

News flash Kip, a trained fighter *will always see a stick as a weapon* no matter what shape it is or who's carrying it. A trained fighter will recognize it immediately, *because he's looking for something to hit you with*, and you happen to be holding something right there. If you bring a stick to a self defense situation and you have no training and no concept of reality, your opponent will simply take it away and shove it up your ***. Same with a sword. Same with a gun.

Some teenage kids tried to rob one of the pizza places I used to work at with a rifle one day. They came in with masks on and started shouting and pointing it at people, and the rough men who worked their laughed in their faces and told them to go home before they got their own rifle shoved up their asses. Carrying a weapon doesn't make you a bad ***. Knowing how to use one might, but that requires the serious study I don't believe you are engaging in.

Good luck to Kip. But to me he sounds like a delusional fan boy or a deliberate troll. Who cares what stick he buys off the internet? He's just going to repost this thread next week all over again.


-Rob


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## lklawson

kip42 said:


> I usually carry a BO staff when hiking. This can not allways be carried without getting kicked out of somewhere for having a weapon.
> 
> I want a handicap looking cane for places that I cant have anything else such as an air plain, no carry zone, etc. I want to put a rubber bottom on and use it for defense. This needs to look like a tradition cane so I can take it anywhere. Who makes the best ones? Are any unbreakable?
> 
> Found these
> 
> http://www.combatcanes.com/Why_Canes_.html
> 
> I want an unbreakable walking stick for when I can have a firearm and the stick will not matter. I have found these two. This would be carried where they area is no restrictive.
> 
> http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html
> 
> 
> http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html
> 
> Any other ideas?
> 
> 
> I am taking a few classes for cane specific fighting.


Don't waste your money.  Go to a Farm and Feed store and buy a "Stock Cane."  They're hickory (which is pretty much synonymous with "unbreakable").

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Skpotamus said:


> The cold steel city stick would probably be my first choice, although I do know at least one LEO who mentioned that he'd arrest anyone carrying a CS city stick.


It had better be against a local ordinance or it will get challenged in court and probably thrown out.



> Your best bet would probably be a rattan one.


I disagree.  Unless the rattan shaft has some sort of weighted head, then a more traditional wood works better in my experience.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Why do you need it? Not why do you want it, but based on your post, why do you need it?


Why is it any of our business to judge his 'need'?  To be honest, I don't want any body judging whether or not I "need" something and I doubt you do either.




> If you get kicked out for carrying a weapon, don't go in there with a damn weapon! Don't look for ways to circumvent the rules or the law, you have no need.


I disagree.  Self Defense with a weapon is superior to SD without one.  Weapons are so that the smaller, weaker, less well trained, and out-numbered have a chance against the stronger, larger, better trained, and more numerous. So it makes sense to look for one that is legal in a given area.  This is fairly common here in the U.S. where there are some locations in which firearms (for instance) are restricted or prohibited but a person interested in Self Defense might still want to have some legal recourse such as a stick.




> Why, are you expecting to get attacked every three seconds? Seriously, get some reality, and lose the paranoia. Personally I will have no part in humouring or encouraging you.


Do you carry Fire Insurance on your house?  Why are you expecting your home to burn down any second; lose the paranoia!  Do you carry Medical Insurance?  Why are you expecting to contract a life threatening illness every second; lose the paranoia!  Seriously now, a SD weapon is not because you're "expecting" to get attacked at any second, it's because you can't predict when you might be.  Just like your Fire and Life Insurance.  It's nothing more than forethought and preparation.




> Seriously? You will have a cane for when you can have a gun and don't need it?!? That doesn't even make sense! Lose the fantasy, lose the paranoia, and get some reality.


Reality?  Is that the same reality where LEOs only carry a gun because they don't ever need lower force options such as a baton, stun-gun, or pepper spray?  The reality is that if you are considering carrying a SD weapon capable of deadly force then it also makes sense to consider (at the minimum "consider") carrying something capable of lower Force levels.




> Normally I'd say good, but here, I will have no part in encouraging you.


"Not encouraging" is not synonymous with lambasting.  Maybe you didn't intend it, but the tone of this post is condescending and adversarial, anything but helpful.  It's not consistent with your usually polite and helpful posts.




> Point your instructor towards this thread, and the others you have posted, if they still want to teach you, fine. Personally, I'd sit you down for a very long chat, and see what your future may hold.


Please do.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Thesemindz said:


> a trained fighter *will always see a stick as a weapon* no matter what shape it is or who's carrying it.


More often than not, this is true.  But I've also known a lot of "trained fighters" who glance past canes without a second look in normal, every day, life.  LEOs are more likely to see a cane as a potential weapon in my experience.




> A trained fighter will recognize it immediately, *because he's looking for something to hit you with*, and you happen to be holding something right there.


You know, unless he's carrying his own.




> If you bring a stick to a self defense situation and you have no training and no concept of reality, your opponent will simply take it away and shove it up your ***. Same with a sword. Same with a gun.


Horsefeathers.  While training certainly (and often dramatically) increases your capabilities of use and your odds of effectively using a weapon in Self Defense, it is simply untrue that not having training will only result in the weapon being taken away and used against you.  This becomes more true as the weapon increases in lethality and simplicity of use.  A base ball bat is not simplistic to take away from someone who has it cocked back and is ready to triple-play your skull.  But is is a little bit less difficult than a knife.  And, as for a gun, I'm still looking for any, even one, instance where a person who was fully prepared to use a firearm in self defense (as opposed to waving it around and betting on simple intimidation) had it "taken away and used against them" regardless of their training.  Seriously, where's the examples?  There was one fella a few years back who offered a substantial cash reward for anyone who could come up with one verifiable account.  The cash went unclaimed.




> Some teenage kids tried to rob one of the pizza places I used to work at with a rifle one day. They came in with masks on and started shouting and pointing it at people, and the rough men who worked their laughed in their faces and told them to go home before they got their own rifle shoved up their asses.


They were counting on intimidation and had their bluff called.  And that's all it was, a bluff.  Had they come in and actually started pulling the trigger, those rough men would have been perforated and you would, instead, be recounting the story of the massacre you lived through.




> Carrying a weapon doesn't make you a bad ***. Knowing how to use one might, but that requires the serious study I don't believe you are engaging in.


No, it doesn't require "serious study."  It requires a willingness to use it.  I've lost track the number of stories of some yahoo with little-to-no training shooting a bunch of people.  Same for stories of some lunatic on a stabbing rampage.  Just today I was listening to a news story about a robbery victim in the ICU from a hammer.  None of the users had any "serious study" under their belts (I've never even heard of "Claw-Hammer Fu").  What they did have was a willingness to use the weapon to hurt someone else.  "Serious study" is for people like me who want a hobby or an "edge" over someone else who has a weapon and the intention to use it.




> Good luck to Kip. But to me he sounds like a delusional fan boy or a deliberate troll. Who cares what stick he buys off the internet? He's just going to repost this thread next week all over again.


He might be, but that doesn't mean that we should post stuff that isn't true in an effort to discourage him.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Thesemindz

You're right Kirk. I was conflating serious study with the willingness to use the weapon, and that's not correct. Thank you for correcting me. The reason I took that stance is because my exposure to this particular poster makes me think he's only about fantasy and bluffing, and would be on the receiving end of his own stick, which is why I posted that anecdote. But you're right, I was wrong. An untrained person who's willing to do violence is definitely a greater danger than a trained person who is not. But here, I see an untrained person with no real understanding of violence at all.-Rob


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## Chris Parker

Hi Kirk,



lklawson said:


> Why is it any of our business to judge his 'need'? To be honest, I don't want any body judging whether or not I "need" something and I doubt you do either.



Firstly, I didn't judge his needs, I asked what they were. And my question was based on his previous posting, as well as the content of his post here. But really, it's got little to do with judging, it's more about being a responsible member here, and providing the best advice that I can, based on all knowledge I have... and if that advice amounts to "grow up", that's what I'll give.

With the case of yourself, you and your experience with weaponry are known, and frankly you would never post such a question in the way Kip has, so judging your needs wouldn't enter into it.



lklawson said:


> I disagree. Self Defense with a weapon is superior to SD without one. Weapons are so that the smaller, weaker, less well trained, and out-numbered have a chance against the stronger, larger, better trained, and more numerous. So it makes sense to look for one that is legal in a given area. This is fairly common here in the U.S. where there are some locations in which firearms (for instance) are restricted or prohibited but a person interested in Self Defense might still want to have some legal recourse such as a stick.



I'm not arguing that self defence with a weapon can be superior, but if you are purposefully carrying an item specifically to use it as a weapon, self defence or not, then we start to get into real iffy territory legally speaking. Buying something specifically as a "super unbreakable combat cane", especially if he's after something that can be disguised as a "handicap looking cane", we're into police questioning his motives...

"So, you're handicapped?"
"No, I just carry this cane for self defence"
"You don't think that making yourself look weaker may put you in more danger of being attacked?"
"That's why I have my cane"

And heaven help him if and/or when they find this thread with him asking for it (and the other threads he's started....)

And really, from a practical point of view, he's going to be carrying a cane/stick with him everywhere?



lklawson said:


> Do you carry Fire Insurance on your house? Why are you expecting your home to burn down any second; lose the paranoia! Do you carry Medical Insurance? Why are you expecting to contract a life threatening illness every second; lose the paranoia! Seriously now, a SD weapon is not because you're "expecting" to get attacked at any second, it's because you can't predict when you might be. Just like your Fire and Life Insurance. It's nothing more than forethought and preparation.



Sorry, Kirk, I've heard this argument far too many times to be taken in by it (and, for the record, the answer to most insurance questions for me is "no"). There is a big difference between having insurance for an unforseen event and going out and getting a deliberately intended weapon to carry with you, circumventing the legal requirements wherever you go. Insurance isn't paranoia, feeling you need a weapon with you at all times is.



lklawson said:


> Reality? Is that the same reality where LEOs only carry a gun because they don't ever need lower force options such as a baton, stun-gun, or pepper spray? The reality is that if you are considering carrying a SD weapon capable of deadly force then it also makes sense to consider (at the minimum "consider") carrying something capable of lower Force levels.



You seriously kick off Kip's adrenaline, and even if he's got both, he'll reach for the gun every time. Why? Because he's hardwired to go for the most powerful thing available against a threat (same as everyone), and that will not be the lower force option. The conscious mind goes straight out the window, so logic can't be applied here. Really, I'd suggest not carrying either, but that's me. That's why I was asking how dangerous the area that Kip lives in is, and how much violence he sees daily, especially as regards to himself being the target.



lklawson said:


> "Not encouraging" is not synonymous with lambasting. Maybe you didn't intend it, but the tone of this post is condescending and adversarial, anything but helpful. It's not consistent with your usually polite and helpful posts.



Yeah, that's a very fair call. But, as with Thesemindz, my take here is coloured by my previous experience with Kip and his posts. He comes back every few months to ask the same questions he's asked before, never taking into account any answers, and always filled with this "super martial arts" fantasy, going up against the evils of the world. If he does show a change to that, I'm more than willing to help, but so far that has yet to be seen. For instance he just started another thread yesterday (same time as this one) asking again a question he's already had answered 6 months ago.


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## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Kirk,
> 
> 
> 
> Firstly, I didn't judge his needs, I asked what they were. And my question was based on his previous posting, as well as the content of his post here. But really, it's got little to do with judging, it's more about being a responsible member here, and providing the best advice that I can, based on all knowledge I have... and if that advice amounts to "grow up", that's what I'll give.
> 
> With the case of yourself, you and your experience with weaponry are known, and frankly you would never post such a question in the way Kip has, so judging your needs wouldn't enter into it.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not arguing that self defence with a weapon can be superior, but if you are purposefully carrying an item specifically to use it as a weapon, self defence or not, then we start to get into real iffy territory legally speaking. Buying something specifically as a "super unbreakable combat cane", especially if he's after something that can be disguised as a "handicap looking cane", we're into police questioning his motives...
> 
> "So, you're handicapped?"
> "No, I just carry this cane for self defence"
> "You don't think that making yourself look weaker may put you in more danger of being attacked?"
> "That's why I have my cane"
> 
> And heaven help him if and/or when they find this thread with him asking for it (and the other threads he's started....)
> 
> And really, from a practical point of view, he's going to be carrying a cane/stick with him everywhere?
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, Kirk, I've heard this argument far too many times to be taken in by it (and, for the record, the answer to most insurance questions for me is "no"). There is a big difference between having insurance for an unforseen event and going out and getting a deliberately intended weapon to carry with you, circumventing the legal requirements wherever you go. Insurance isn't paranoia, feeling you need a weapon with you at all times is.
> 
> 
> 
> You seriously kick off Kip's adrenaline, and even if he's got both, he'll reach for the gun every time. Why? Because he's hardwired to go for the most powerful thing available against a threat (same as everyone), and that will not be the lower force option. The conscious mind goes straight out the window, so logic can't be applied here. Really, I'd suggest not carrying either, but that's me. That's why I was asking how dangerous the area that Kip lives in is, and how much violence he sees daily, especially as regards to himself being the target.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's a very fair call. But, as with Thesemindz, my take here is coloured by my previous experience with Kip and his posts. He comes back every few months to ask the same questions he's asked before, never taking into account any answers, and always filled with this "super martial arts" fantasy, going up against the evils of the world. If he does show a change to that, I'm more than willing to help, but so far that has yet to be seen. For instance he just started another thread yesterday (same time as this one) asking again a question he's already had answered 6 months ago.



While I've grown to appreciate your viewpoints on carrying weapons, I don't agree with them-I do largely agree with you about Kip. 

I carry a cane-not all the time,and I don't need it to walk..._yet_..but I'm anticipating that if I live another 15 years it might be a help to me that way. I haven't needed to use it for self defense..._yet_, though my knee does trouble me enough to occasionally be glad to have the things. In the meantime, I do have a weapon that I'm trained to use, that is inoccuous and legal to carry, _can be used in a non-lethal fashion_,serves as another sort of tool when not as a weapon, and I can take pretty much everywhere, unlike my guns and knives.

I carry a knife-not all the time, but pretty close. I use it to cut fruit, boxes, string, cables, cable ties, wires, meat on occasion. I've gutted and cleaned fish, rabbits, squirrels,turkeys, goats, coyotes, feral hogs, wild boar, javelina, chickens, lizards, snakes, deer,antelope, elk, and bison with it. I haven't needed to use _these_ particular knives for self-defense...._yet_. In the meantime, I have a weapon that I'm trained to use, is inoccuous and legal for me to carry,_is limited in non lethal uses_, and I can take just about anywhere.

I carry a gun-not all the time, but pretty close. When it comes to the decision to put it on and carry it, it has only one use, and the consequences of using it are of an pentultimate nature. While I've used firearms: pistols, knives and rifles-to kill rabbits, squirrels, coyotes, turkeys,wild boars, feral hogs, javelina, antelope, deer,bison(this one raised as livestock, and dispatched at close range for butchering, not on a hunt) and elk, I haven't had to use one for self defense...._yet_.

So, yeah, he wants to walk around with a cane-if he's 16, like it sounds, rather than 51 like me, he'll look suspicious without a limp. But it's a safer choice all around than a gun or a knife-though I understand that those aren't options where you are......

...in that regard, I'd go with Mr. Lawson's advice: nothing beats a nice piece of hickory, and it's prettier than anything Cold Steel produces, and doesn't look as suspicious.


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## Carol

For a good quality walking stick with self defense in mind, check out Jimmo the Cane Man:

Jimmo has MS, but refuses to let the world pass him by...he knows of what he sells.  Good guy, great products.

http://www.caneman2.com/


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## lklawson

Thesemindz said:


> But here, I see an untrained person with no real understanding of violence at all.-Rob


Fair enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> And really, from a practical point of view, he's going to be carrying a cane/stick with him everywhere?


I do.  Even when I have a "superior" weapon such as a firearm, I still usually have my cane.




> Sorry, Kirk, I've heard this argument far too many times


To be honest, I think you and I already did this dance.  Thread should be in the archives somewhere.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Skpotamus

lklawson said:


> It had better be against a local ordinance or it will get challenged in court and probably thrown out.
> 
> I disagree.  Unless the rattan shaft has some sort of weighted head, then a more traditional wood works better in my experience.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Well, what an officer can arrest you for vs what is the law are two totally different things.  We've had a series of prosecutors who took the stance of "when in doubt, arrest and let the courts decide," along with a lot of sheriffs and city PD chiefs who feel the same way.  Heck, they can seize weapons without arresting you "for public safety", then it's a pain to get them back. (story: I was in a car wreck, knocked out, ER docs found my pocket 38, turned it over to police, it was a matter of months before I got it back even though there was no crime committed).  

re: material choice, well, that depends on the purpose.  A hardwoods stick doesn't flex like rattan, meaning it does a lot more damage when you strike something with it.  Making it great for smacking meat.  It also chips and splinters when it breaks, which is bad for training (really sucks when your hickory bo staff breaks during a hard drill and you get splinters in your face and hand, at least for me it did  ).  For hiking (his stated purpose), well, the rattan is a LOT lighter.  http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/lacanne_stick.htm here compares various types of sticks the same length, the rattan is less than half the weight of hickory, making it a good choice for a hiking stick IMHO, simply based on the fact that most of what you'll be doing with a hiking stick is knocking down cobwebs and getting stickers out of your way.  But still give you a good stick to whomp with and something you can train with as well (taking lots of hits before it breaks, IME, rattan lasts longer than hardwoods).  Plus, I like to oil and burn my rattan, making some pretty patterns  (gotta look good while I'm getting beaten senseless in class :ultracool )


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## Skpotamus

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not arguing that self defence with a weapon can be superior, but if you are purposefully carrying an item specifically to use it as a weapon, self defence or not, then we start to get into real iffy territory legally speaking. Buying something specifically as a "super unbreakable combat cane", especially if he's after something that can be disguised as a "handicap looking cane", we're into police questioning his motives...
> "So, you're handicapped?"
> "No, I just carry this cane for self defence"
> "You don't think that making yourself look weaker may put you in more danger of being attacked?"
> "That's why I have my cane"
> And heaven help him if and/or when they find this thread with him asking for it (and the other threads he's started....)
> And really, from a practical point of view, he's going to be carrying a cane/stick with him everywhere?



I'm not kirk, but I'd thought I'd butt in and add my own two cents.  I see you are from Australia, I'm not sure what the laws are in your country, so perhaps our views are colored by our environments?  the US (at least some parts), tend to be a bit more conservative on self defense issues.  Carrying a cane for self defense wouldn't be an automatic "go directly to jail" card.  Heck, I have a license to carry issued by the state that lets me carry my handgun on me at all times (with some exceptions).  Doesn't mean that if I use it I'll go to jail and have it argued that I was looking for trouble.  When the SHTF, your ACTIONS are judged based on what happened at the time.  Not necessarily the means and methods.  If you can clearly show that you were acting defensively, then only used the level of force needed to defend yourself (and didn't cross the line to punitive actions), then you're probably going to be ok.  It's those grey areas that figuratively murder people in court, when they can't present a good argument as to why they acted the way they did.  

Now, I haven't had any experience with the OP before this, but wanting to have a self defense option available to you when the government or property owner has disarmed you is a common theme (hence so many companies coming up with less lethal self defense options, like pepper spray, tasers, collapsible batons, combat pens, etc).  Heck, that's why there ARE combat canes available and arts teaching how to use them for SD.  Now, being legally handicapped or not doesn't mean you can't carry a cane.  Who's to say you didn't twist your ankle at martial arts the day before or while jogging and need some support for that ankle?  Couldn't the theoretical after action conversation sound like this:
"So you're handicapped?
No, I twisted my ankle the other day and wanted the cane to help support me
Why did you use the cane on your attacker(s)?
Well, officer, I thought he/they were going to kill me, there were more than one of them/they were a lot bigger than me/they had a weapon, I tried to get them to leave me alone, even yelled for help when they attacked me, I was terrified, and I didn't think I could outrun them.  
Well, according to my magical internet watcher that knows everything a person has ever done on the internet instantly, an anonymous person named skpotamus posted a link on martialtalk.com about using this exact argument for carrying a cane for self defense.
Well officer, if you can prove that I am skpotamus, AND that my ankle didn't get hurt the other day, then I guess the only thing I can say is that I carried it for self defense, the circumstances don't change though, I was attacked by a person(s) that I thought were going to kill me, I called for help, I couldn't get away, hence my actions"  Do you think that would be deficient in proving your case for having the cane other than SD?  Here in the US, it probably would.  Perhaps not in Australia?  



Chris Parker said:


> You seriously kick off Kip's adrenaline, and even if he's got both,  he'll reach for the gun every time. Why? Because he's hardwired to go  for the most powerful thing available against a threat (same as  everyone), and that will not be the lower force option. The conscious  mind goes straight out the window, so logic can't be applied here.  Really, I'd suggest not carrying either, but that's me. That's why I was  asking how dangerous the area that Kip lives in is, and how much  violence he sees daily, especially as regards to himself being the  target.



That's not been my experience.  Most people freeze up and don't do anything unless they've had training.  The more training you have, the better your odds of surviving, and using the correct tool for the situation at hand.  Police don't routinely shoot people when they could have used a stun gun or baton to end the situation.  And most LEO's are lacking in the training dept.  (my local PD's require an 8 hour training course on non lethal take downs and force continuum's when they start as a LEO, then nothing after that, only have to shoot their gun once a year).  My experience has been that you tend to use whats in your hands first, then worry about escalating if that doesn't work.  


As always, YMMV.


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## Skpotamus

Chris Parker said:


> I'm not arguing that self defence with a weapon can be superior, but if  you are purposefully carrying an item specifically to use it as a  weapon, self defence or not, then we start to get into real iffy  territory legally speaking. Buying something specifically as a "super  unbreakable combat cane", especially if he's after something that can be  disguised as a "handicap looking cane", we're into police questioning  his motives...
> "So, you're handicapped?"
> "No, I just carry this cane for self defence"
> "You don't think that making yourself look weaker may put you in more danger of being attacked?"
> "That's why I have my cane"
> And heaven help him if and/or when they find this thread with him asking for it (and the other threads he's started....)
> And really, from a practical point of view, he's going to be carrying a cane/stick with him everywhere?



I'm not kirk, but I'd thought I'd butt in and add my own two cents.  I  see you are from Australia, I'm not sure what the laws are in your  country, so perhaps our views are colored by our environments?  the US  (at least some parts), tend to be a bit more conservative on self  defense issues.  Carrying a cane for self defense wouldn't be an  automatic "go directly to jail" card.  Heck, I have a license to carry  issued by the state that lets me carry my handgun on me at all times  (with some exceptions).  Doesn't mean that if I use it I'll go to jail  and have it argued that I was looking for trouble.  When the SHTF, your  ACTIONS are judged based on what happened at the time.  Not necessarily  the means and methods.  If you can clearly show that you were acting  defensively, then only used the level of force needed to defend yourself  (and didn't cross the line to punitive actions), then you're probably  going to be ok.  It's those grey areas that figuratively murder people  in court, when they can't present a good argument as to why they acted  the way they did.  

Now, I haven't had any experience with the OP  before this, but wanting to have a self defense option available to you  when the government or property owner has disarmed you is a common  theme (hence so many companies coming up with less lethal self defense  options, like pepper spray, tasers, collapsible batons, combat pens,  etc).  Heck, that's why there ARE combat canes available and arts  teaching how to use them for SD.  Now, being legally handicapped or not  doesn't mean you can't carry a cane.  Who's to say you didn't twist your  ankle at martial arts the day before or while jogging and need some  support for that ankle?  Couldn't the theoretical after action  conversation sound like this:
"So you're handicapped?
No, I twisted my ankle the other day and wanted the cane to help support me
Why did you use the cane on your attacker(s)?
Well,  officer, I thought he/they were going to kill me, there were more than  one of them/they were a lot bigger than me/they had a weapon, I tried to  get them to leave me alone, even yelled for help when they attacked me,  I was terrified, and I didn't think I could outrun them.  
Well,  according to my magical internet watcher that knows everything a person  has ever done on the internet instantly, an anonymous person named  skpotamus posted a link on martialtalk.com about using this exact  argument for carrying a cane for self defense.
Well officer, if you  can prove that I am skpotamus, AND that my ankle didn't get hurt the  other day, then I guess the only thing I can say is that I carried it  for self defense, the circumstances don't change though, I was attacked  by a person(s) that I thought were going to kill me, I called for help, I  couldn't get away, hence my actions"  Do you think that would be  deficient in proving your case for having the cane other than SD?  Here  in the US, it probably would.  Perhaps not in Australia?  



Chris Parker said:


> You seriously kick off Kip's adrenaline, and even if he's got both,  he'll reach for the gun every time. Why? Because he's hardwired to go  for the most powerful thing available against a threat (same as  everyone), and that will not be the lower force option. The conscious  mind goes straight out the window, so logic can't be applied here.  Really, I'd suggest not carrying either, but that's me. That's why I was  asking how dangerous the area that Kip lives in is, and how much  violence he sees daily, especially as regards to himself being the  target.



That's not been my experience.  Most people  freeze up and don't do anything unless they've had training.  The more  training you have, the better your odds of surviving, and using the  correct tool for the situation at hand.  Police don't routinely shoot  people when they could have used a stun gun or baton to end the  situation.  And most LEO's are lacking in the training dept.  (my local  PD's require an 8 hour training course on non lethal take downs and  force continuum's when they start as a LEO, then nothing after that,  only have to shoot their gun once a year).  My experience has been that  you tend to use whats in your hands first, then worry about escalating  if that doesn't work.  


Train hard, Stay safe and as always, YMMV.


----------



## lklawson

Skpotamus said:


> Well, what an officer can arrest you for vs what is the law are two totally different things.  We've had a series of prosecutors who took the stance of "when in doubt, arrest and let the courts decide," along with a lot of sheriffs and city PD chiefs who feel the same way.  Heck, they can seize weapons without arresting you "for public safety", then it's a pain to get them back. (story: I was in a car wreck, knocked out, ER docs found my pocket 38, turned it over to police, it was a matter of months before I got it back even though there was no crime committed).


You are completely correct here.  I was seriously considering a similar followup but it looks like you already did it for me.  

I think we all have stories where cops seize stuff "just 'cuz they can" or do fishing expedition stops.

Of course, this is Abuse Under Color of Authority, but the system is currently configured so that it is hard-to-impossible to rectify these sort of wrongs.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> With the case of yourself, you and your experience with weaponry are known, and frankly you would never post such a question in the way Kip has, so judging your needs wouldn't enter into it.


OK, I've been mulling this over in my mind.  I knew that I'd want to talk about it but I wanted some time to consider where I was going to go with it first.  So here goes.

When I started many moons ago I had the same sort of questions.  While it is true that I didn't post my questions on the Internet, I did have some similar ones.  I did private research and study and, if required, discretely inquired of trusted & experienced sources.

I quickly learned that, yes indeed, a firearm is top of the food chain for effective self defense having the easiest use, lowest learning curve, and highest Force potential.  However, it is also true that carrying a firearm was simply not always an option because of legal restrictions.  Even now that I have a concealed carry writ (in Ohio it is a CHL; "Concealed Handgun License"), there are still many places where a firearm is restricted or not permitted.

My study lead me to conclude that, further, a weapon of some sort, usually any weapon, offers substantial advantages over bare-handed self defense.  Of the myriad of potential self defense weapons, I found that the two most effective (for self defense) and easily over-looked legal alternatives were in the classes of "sharp and pointy" of varying lengths and "bludgeony" of varying configurations.  

Now, while "sharp and pointy" is legal these tools are still often restricted.  For instance, I may not have a knife (never mind a sword) in a Courthouse, Police Station, Airport, Mental Health facilities, etc.  In short, while less so than a firearm, most people easily identify a knife as a "potential weapon."

Clubs, on the other hand, are more easily overlooked.  While expandable batons (like ASP), LEO PR24 baton, or even the old "Constables Truncheon" are synonymous with "weapon" to most people, most other "sticks" aren't.  There are many "disguised" sticks suggestions I've seen offered over the years.  Some examples include a high-impact poly Chinese flutes and a hardwood/poly painted magician's "wand."  But of them all, I found the cane and the umbrella are the most over-looked.  Having experimented with the umbrella and studied extant literature, I am convinced that an umbrella is poorly suited for bludgeoning but makes a decent thrusting & hooking tool.  With various tweaks it can be made to perform "less poorly" as a bludgeon but it's still not the forte of the tool.  This leaves the cane.  I have some friends who have concluded that the universality of the tool coupled with the "go anywhere" nature makes it (to quote) the "perfect weapon."  I don't agree that it is 'perfect' but it does have several advantages in modern society.

Since that time I have made a study of the stick, the knife, and the gun.  When I can legally, I have a firearm either on my person or easily accessible nearby.  I usually have a knife.  I almost always have a cane.  Yes, if you've read carefully, you'll note that there are some times which I will have all three - which gives me four different Force Level options.  I like having options.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## chinto

Skpotamus said:


> The cold steel city stick would probably be my first choice, although I do know at least one LEO who mentioned that he'd arrest anyone carrying a CS city stick.
> 
> Your best bet would probably be a rattan one.  I'd probably buy one of the 54" staffs that the dog brothers sell, cut it to length, add a handle to it, oil it so it's stronger and heavier and then add some polypropylene to it so it looks like a nice walking cane.  http://dogbrothers.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=119  If the sticks can last through them beating each other full force with them pretty regularly, it should last for most stuff you're going to do with it.



where do you live??? at least in the USA I know of NO state or CITY even that has attempted to outlaw any cane ( with the exception of a sword cane.. and that is for the sword in it. )  it would be a  violation of the ADA act under federal law.   also if you walk down the street with a cane you have committed NO CRIME, and the officer in question would be libel to arrest under Tittle 18 US code for abuse of authority and things. Now if you were striking some one with it.. that is a very Different matter.


----------



## Buka

The only advice I can offer - Never bring a cane to a crutch fight.


----------



## Skpotamus

chinto said:


> where do you live??? at least in the USA I know of NO state or CITY even that has attempted to outlaw any cane ( with the exception of a sword cane.. and that is for the sword in it. ) it would be a violation of the ADA act under federal law. also if you walk down the street with a cane you have committed NO CRIME, and the officer in question would be libel to arrest under Tittle 18 US code for abuse of authority and things. Now if you were striking some one with it.. that is a very Different matter.



I live in Indiana.  The particular area I live in is known for officersl, prosecutors and judges..... applying the law in "unique ways."  I never said anything about it being illegal or against the law.  I just said that a particular officer said he'd arrest someone for carrying a cold steel city stick when we were discussing them in training.  The ADA act is really more of a civil recourse for discrimination, not something police enforce.  It is designed to stop discrimination against people with disabilities in the workplace and with regards to public services and does so by defining what they can sue for.  It does not give someone the right to carry a cane, but does give them the right to sue someone for not letting them use it.  (their words, not mine and not agreed with by me).  Pretty much the attitude was that if he saw a younger male carrying a city stick or other large stick without an obvious physical impairment, he'd arrest them for carrying a weapon.  Whether or not they'd be charged with a crime was up to the prosecutor.  Odds are, they wouldn't be charged, but they would be facing a night or two in jail and wouldn't get the stick back.  

 I've seen officers confiscate kubotans from peoples keychains before, even one officer who confiscated a roll of dimes from a student because they claimed they were a weapon, so it wouldn't surprise me to see one take a city stick from someone (especially if they were younger and carrying it instead of walking with it like a cane).  

Would I still carry one?  Absolutely, especially in an area where I couldn't carry my firearm or my spydercos.  I'd also probably wrap up my ankle or knee to help with that annoying knee injury I received in class the day before and use it like a walking cane to try to not be stopped in case an officer noticed me with a city stick.    


BTW, it is illegal for some people to carry certain types of canes (non sword canes), specifically, a non blind person using a white cane is illegal in some states, so there is a legal precedent for the outlawing and barring of canes to some people.


----------



## Haakon

elder999 said:


> I carry a cane-not all the time,and I don't need it to walk..._yet_..but I'm anticipating that if I live another 15 years it might be a help to me that way. I haven't needed to use it for self defense..._yet_, though my knee does trouble me enough to occasionally be glad to have the things. In the meantime, I do have a weapon that I'm trained to use, that is inoccuous and legal to carry, _can be used in a non-lethal fashion_,serves as another sort of tool when not as a weapon, and I can take pretty much everywhere, unlike my guns and knives.



I've been thinking about starting to practice with the cane for just that reason too. I don't need it now, but the way my knees feel I suspect it's only a matter of time. When the time comes I'll pick a pretty ordinary, generic, hickory cane, maybe from SDK I have one of their bokkens and was impressed so I'd expect the cane to be good too.

They have a shepards crook (basically a typical cane but 5 or 6 feet long), that might make an interesting weapon/walking stick/conversation starter.


----------



## lklawson

Haakon said:


> I've been thinking about starting to practice with the cane for just that reason too. I don't need it now, but the way my knees feel I suspect it's only a matter of time. When the time comes I'll pick a pretty ordinary, generic, hickory cane, maybe from SDK I have one of their bokkens and was impressed so I'd expect the cane to be good too.


The biggest problem with this plan is that 99% of all the cane systems I've ever seen (and I've looked at a lot) are predicated on the fact that *YOU DON'T NEED A CANE TO STAND OR MOVE*.

If you actually have a bum leg/foot/knee and can't walk without your cane, then the vast majority of cane systems out there simply won't work for you.

To date I've seen exactly *one* cane system which makes allowances for the bizarre idea that you're carrying a cane as an aid to ambulation instead of as an "under the radar" weapon or because you're pretentious.  That system is Chas Clements' "Combat Cane for Cripples."  Good luck finding it.  Last I heard Chas was down and out with a severe case of neuropathy and the instructional vids he made of his cane system were all on VHS.

I've seen precisely *one* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg and that was a Silat system where the progenitor of the style actually had a club-foot.  No points for guessing that Chas spent some quality time in that system (he was primarily a DeThours guy until they had a falling out).  I don't recall the name of the system off hand.

My advice: Go find Chas and see if he'll give you any tips - he lives in the Boulder area.  Failing that try to find someone who has one of Chas' VHS tapes and can make a DVD for you.  Failing that, learn a cane system that is super-basic and focus your energy on the fundamentals of it which require little to no movement (sorry Hapkido and Shuey guys).  Then, after you've got the basics down well, spend a lot of time practicing with setups that screw up your movement.  Here are some ideas (a few of which I've done, myself):

stick a pebble in your shoe - it'll hurt to try to "walk" or even stand on that foot
hobble your legs - no, really.  Tie your ankles together with a short length of rope, may be two feet or so
wear a medical leg brace that prevents your knee from bending
strap one foot up - bend your knee all the way until your foot is touching the buttock.  Use an old belt to strap it down.
affix a 5lb weight on top of a helmet and wear that.  The higher the better - it'll mess with your balance.
Now try to fight with your cane.  Better hope there's a tree or a wall or something near by

Seriously.  I'm a *huge* cane fan.  I carry one all the time.  But if you really need a cane to stand or walk, freaking *NONE* of the systems commonly available to you are worth diddly.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Haakon

lklawson said:


> The biggest problem with this plan is that 99% of all the cane systems I've ever seen (and I've looked at a lot) are predicated on the fact that *YOU DON'T NEED A CANE TO STAND OR MOVE*.



Great point, and it is one I've considered - how do you use a cane for defense if you need it to stand up? So far I haven't put much thought, and no practice, into how to solve that sticky problem. Fortunately I do have a very skilled and talented teacher (not Chas) who will hopefully have some good ideas. He's studied a lot, it wouldn't surprise me if he had at least viewed the videos you're talking about at some time.



lklawson said:


> If you actually have a bum leg/foot/knee and can't walk without your cane, then the vast majority of cane systems out there simply won't work for you.
> 
> To date I've seen exactly *one* cane system which makes allowances for the bizarre idea that you're carrying a cane as an aid to ambulation instead of as an "under the radar" weapon or because you're pretentious.  That system is Chas Clements' "Combat Cane for Cripples."  Good luck finding it.  Last I heard Chas was down and out with a severe case of neuropathy and the instructional vids he made of his cane system were all on VHS.
> 
> I've seen precisely *one* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg and that was a Silat system where the progenitor of the style actually had a club-foot.  No points for guessing that Chas spent some quality time in that system (he was primarily a DeThours guy until they had a falling out).  I don't recall the name of the system off hand.
> 
> My advice: Go find Chas and see if he'll give you any tips - he lives in the Boulder area.  Failing that try to find someone who has one of Chas' VHS tapes and can make a DVD for you.  Failing that, learn a cane system that is super-basic and focus your energy on the fundamentals of it which require little to no movement (sorry Hapkido and Shuey guys).  Then, after you've got the basics down well, spend a lot of time practicing with setups that screw up your movement.  Here are some ideas (a few of which I've done, myself):
> 
> stick a pebble in your shoe - it'll hurt to try to "walk" or even stand on that foot
> hobble your legs - no, really.  Tie your ankles together with a short length of rope, may be two feet or so
> wear a medical leg brace that prevents your knee from bending
> strap one foot up - bend your knee all the way until your foot is touching the buttock.  Use an old belt to strap it down.
> affix a 5lb weight on top of a helmet and wear that.  The higher the better - it'll mess with your balance.
> Now try to fight with your cane.  Better hope there's a tree or a wall or something near by
> 
> Seriously.  I'm a *huge* cane fan.  I carry one all the time.  But if you really need a cane to stand or walk, freaking *NONE* of the systems commonly available to you are worth diddly.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Great training ideas, I'll try to find a copy of those videos.


----------



## chinto

Skpotamus said:


> I live in Indiana.  The particular area I live in is known for officersl, prosecutors and judges..... applying the law in "unique ways."  I never said anything about it being illegal or against the law.  I just said that a particular officer said he'd arrest someone for carrying a cold steel city stick when we were discussing them in training.  The ADA act is really more of a civil recourse for discrimination, not something police enforce.  It is designed to stop discrimination against people with disabilities in the workplace and with regards to public services and does so by defining what they can sue for.  It does not give someone the right to carry a cane, but does give them the right to sue someone for not letting them use it.  (their words, not mine and not agreed with by me).  Pretty much the attitude was that if he saw a younger male carrying a city stick or other large stick without an obvious physical impairment, he'd arrest them for carrying a weapon.  Whether or not they'd be charged with a crime was up to the prosecutor.  Odds are, they wouldn't be charged, but they would be facing a night or two in jail and wouldn't get the stick back.
> 
> I've seen officers confiscate kubotans from peoples keychains before, even one officer who confiscated a roll of dimes from a student because they claimed they were a weapon, so it wouldn't surprise me to see one take a city stick from someone (especially if they were younger and carrying it instead of walking with it like a cane).
> 
> Would I still carry one?  Absolutely, especially in an area where I couldn't carry my firearm or my spydercos.  I'd also probably wrap up my ankle or knee to help with that annoying knee injury I received in class the day before and use it like a walking cane to try to not be stopped in case an officer noticed me with a city stick.
> 
> 
> BTW, it is illegal for some people to carry certain types of canes (non sword canes), specifically, a non blind person using a white cane is illegal in some states, so there is a legal precedent for the outlawing and barring of canes to some people.



the white blind cane is a case of fraud if you are not blind. it has several rights added to it to protect the sightless in traffic and things. 

I would if he took the walking stick go to a different agency and charge the officer with theft.  ( yes boys and girls criminal charges. )   and if he arrested me for carrying it, I would make an arrest myself at the jail or police station under title 18.

Just because he has a badge and is an LEO does not make him able to brake the law.  in the US we do have a problem with some police thinking that their badge and status as a sworn officer or what ever kind make them some how above the law,  this is a real problem


----------



## Skpotamus

chinto said:


> the white blind cane is a case of fraud if you are not blind. it has several rights added to it to protect the sightless in traffic and things.
> 
> I would if he took the walking stick go to a different agency and charge the officer with theft. ( yes boys and girls criminal charges. ) and if he arrested me for carrying it, I would make an arrest myself at the jail or police station under title 18.
> 
> Just because he has a badge and is an LEO does not make him able to brake the law. in the US we do have a problem with some police thinking that their badge and status as a sworn officer or what ever kind make them some how above the law, this is a real problem



Well, the way things are written in the law books and the way the officers choose to apply them is quite different in most cases.  Getting an officer charged for anythng is quite hard, and making it stick is even harder.  Here's a link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/1...lice-officer-fatal-crash-blood-test-concerns/) where an officer was drunk driving his dept issued vehicle, hits two people on a motorcycle, killing one, and has his DUI charges dropped due to police "mishandling" the test results.  Note other things listed: State Supreme court wouldn't even revoke the officers license after his drunk driving KILLED SOMEONE.  

This happened almost a full year ago and the officer hasn't even been fired or arrested.  In fact, they initially tried to blame the motorcyclists for "failing to move" while stopped at a red light for the drunken officer.    http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/NEWS06/100813056/Background-Bisard-case 

So while an officer confiscating a cane for defensive purposes might not be legal, good luck getting it to stick, and good luck after that with tickets and such.


----------



## Drac

I carry one of GM Shueys Dojo canes whenever I travel.


----------



## redhawk44357

combat canes with points and grooves half way down the shaft are a red flag to the TSO. The old style wooden cane with the crook can get you anywhere,  check the american disabities act. If you need one go for it. If you are a 20 something in good health why bother with a cane, both hands are then free for any method you choose.  I am 61 and need a cane ( bad knee and foot pain). There is no training near me, so i do the best i can with Hock Hockiem and Mike Janich materials. Sword canes can just make a bad day worse,  something about concealed weapons not to mention blade length laws in your jurisdiction.  my .02


----------



## lklawson

redhawk44357 said:


> If you are a 20 something in good health why bother with a cane, both hands are then free for any method you choose.


Because a good stick can lay down a much more effective beat than bare hands.

It's simple math.  Stick > Bare-hands

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Cyriacus

lklawson said:


> Because a good stick can lay down a much more effective beat than bare hands.
> 
> It's simple math.  Stick > Bare-hands
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


In Terms of Impact, Yes.
And Reach.

You can do alot more with a Stick.
Having a Stick in-hand when the Time comes is about the only Primary Flaw I see.


----------



## frank raud

Cyriacus said:


> In Terms of Impact, Yes.
> And Reach.
> 
> You can do alot more with a Stick.
> Having a Stick in-hand when the Time comes is about the only Primary Flaw I see.


Which would be why you carry your stick/cane with you.


----------



## Josh Oakley

kip42 said:


> I usually carry a BO staff when hiking. This can not allways be carried without getting kicked out of somewhere for having a weapon.
> 
> I want a handicap looking cane for places that I cant have anything else such as an air plain, no carry zone, etc. I want to put a rubber bottom on and use it for defense. This needs to look like a tradition cane so I can take it anywhere. Who makes the best ones? Are any unbreakable?
> 
> Found these
> 
> http://www.combatcanes.com/Why_Canes_.html
> 
> I want an unbreakable walking stick for when I can have a firearm and the stick will not matter. I have found these two. This would be carried where they area is no restrictive.
> 
> http://www.coldsteel.com/citystick.html
> 
> 
> http://www.coldsteel.com/irishblackthorn.html
> 
> Any other ideas?
> 
> 
> I am taking a few classes for cane specific fighting.



You don't need an unbreakable cane, for starters. Now for my other points:

1) Canemasters canes are very nice, but unnecessarily expensive.
2) A Blackthorn cane is Captain Obvious.
3) If you don't need it for a walking aid, _any cane you get will be Captain Obvious!
_4) Captain Obvious wears a giant target painted on his chest.
5) Planes are pretty tight spaces to use canes anyway.
6) A better self-defense weapon for a plane s a good steel pen. If you're feeling unnecessarily spendy, there are pens developed specificaly for employment in self-defense.


----------



## rainesr

Skpotamus said:


> The cold steel city stick would probably be my first choice, although I do know at least one LEO who mentioned that he'd arrest anyone carrying a CS city stick.


I know a Police officer who got his station sued over this very thing, the police lost. Unfortunately most people don't have the extra cash to sue over such a thing like my friend.


----------



## Josh Oakley

lklawson said:


> The biggest problem with this plan is that 99% of all the cane systems I've ever seen (and I've looked at a lot) are predicated on the fact that *YOU DON'T NEED A CANE TO STAND OR MOVE*.
> 
> If you actually have a bum leg/foot/knee and can't walk without your cane, then the vast majority of cane systems out there simply won't work for you.
> 
> To date I've seen exactly *one* cane system which makes allowances for the bizarre idea that you're carrying a cane as an aid to ambulation instead of as an "under the radar" weapon or because you're pretentious.  That system is Chas Clements' "Combat Cane for Cripples."  Good luck finding it.  Last I heard Chas was down and out with a severe case of neuropathy and the instructional vids he made of his cane system were all on VHS.
> 
> I've seen precisely *one* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg and that was a Silat system where the progenitor of the style actually had a club-foot.  No points for guessing that Chas spent some quality time in that system (he was primarily a DeThours guy until they had a falling out).  I don't recall the name of the system off hand.
> 
> My advice: Go find Chas and see if he'll give you any tips - he lives in the Boulder area.  Failing that try to find someone who has one of Chas' VHS tapes and can make a DVD for you.  Failing that, learn a cane system that is super-basic and focus your energy on the fundamentals of it which require little to no movement (sorry Hapkido and Shuey guys).  Then, after you've got the basics down well, spend a lot of time practicing with setups that screw up your movement.  Here are some ideas (a few of which I've done, myself):
> 
> stick a pebble in your shoe - it'll hurt to try to "walk" or even stand on that foot
> hobble your legs - no, really.  Tie your ankles together with a short length of rope, may be two feet or so
> wear a medical leg brace that prevents your knee from bending
> strap one foot up - bend your knee all the way until your foot is touching the buttock.  Use an old belt to strap it down.
> affix a 5lb weight on top of a helmet and wear that.  The higher the better - it'll mess with your balance.
> Now try to fight with your cane.  Better hope there's a tree or a wall or something near by
> 
> Seriously.  I'm a *huge* cane fan.  I carry one all the time.  But if you really need a cane to stand or walk, freaking *NONE* of the systems commonly available to you are worth diddly.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



This:
http://www.canemasters.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=36

And this:
http://www.your-personal-and-home-security.com/cane-self-defense.html

And _this:
_http://yamaneko.ca/

_And this:
_http://www.naturalmotionmartialarts.com/
_And *this:
*_http://www.prnewschannel.com/absolutenm/templates/?a=2984


----------



## chinto

Skpotamus said:


> Well, the way things are written in the law books and the way the officers choose to apply them is quite different in most cases.  Getting an officer charged for anythng is quite hard, and making it stick is even harder.  Here's a link (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/08/1...lice-officer-fatal-crash-blood-test-concerns/) where an officer was drunk driving his dept issued vehicle, hits two people on a motorcycle, killing one, and has his DUI charges dropped due to police "mishandling" the test results.  Note other things listed: State Supreme court wouldn't even revoke the officers license after his drunk driving KILLED SOMEONE.
> 
> This happened almost a full year ago and the officer hasn't even been fired or arrested.  In fact, they initially tried to blame the motorcyclists for "failing to move" while stopped at a red light for the drunken officer.    http://www.indystar.com/article/99999999/NEWS06/100813056/Background-Bisard-case
> 
> So while an officer confiscating a cane for defensive purposes might not be legal, good luck getting it to stick, and good luck after that with tickets and such.


in my state it is policy for all law enforcement agency's to enforce and honor all citizens arrests.  The state police will do so against LEO's as well.  there are several cases of this happening and the charges have stuck in most of the cases I know of.  Oh and if its under Title 18 US code, the US marshals and or the FBI get involved as its federal.


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## lklawson

Josh Oakley said:


> 2) A Blackthorn cane is Captain Obvious.


To who?  I carry knobbed canes *all the time* and have for well over a decade.  No one has ever hassled me about them, not once.  Not cops.  Not Joe Citizen.  Not Security Guards.  Not on Base after Ft. Hood.  No one.



> 3) If you don't need it for a walking aid, _any cane you get will be Captain Obvious!
> _4) Captain Obvious wears a giant target painted on his chest.


I am a perfectly healthy middle aged white male.  I have never been hassled.  Ever.  The closest it I have ever come is when paying a common traffic ticket, I had to go through Court House security.  The LEO took my pocket knife for storage and later return then ran my cane through the X-Ray.  He asked if I wanted help standing while they had my cane.  I smiled and said, "no thank you."  Then, after irradiating my cane, he returned it to me with a bored look.



> 5) Planes are pretty tight spaces to use canes anyway.


I taught a class on the use of a cane for defense in confined spaces with restricted movement just last night.  It is very, very do-able.



> 6) A better self-defense weapon for a plane s a good steel pen. If you're feeling unnecessarily spendy, there are pens developed specificaly for employment in self-defense.


In your opinion.  Knowing what I know I'd rather have a cane than a pen for SD any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Josh Oakley said:


> This:
> http://www.canemasters.com/index.php?main_page=page&id=36
> 
> And this:
> http://www.your-personal-and-home-security.com/cane-self-defense.html


You  didn't read these links, did you.  The first is Shuey's "Cane Masters."   Though he talks about "seniors," I've yet to see any comprehensive  part of his system which is designed for use by someone who needs a cane to stand or move (you noticed that from my post, right?  Hello?)  And your second link, though also talking about "seniors" *specifically says* that it's Shuey's system.  Then, just a few lines later he says,  "There is a warning however. If you are not that sturdy on your feet to  use these moves, then you might not be able to do this. You might lose  your balance..." and "If  you are not agile enough to do these moves, then carrying a self   defense weapon like pepper spray or a personal safety alarm might be   better for you."



> And _this:
> _http://yamaneko.ca/


About his own system, the gentleman says (specifically), "If you can play tennis or golf, if you can dance. You can learn and practice the use of the cane or walking stick for self defence&#8230; "

Seriously now, playing Tennis and Dancing?  Does that sound like someone who needs a cane to stand or move?




> _And this:
> _http://www.naturalmotionmartialarts.com/
> _And *this:
> *_http://www.prnewschannel.com/absolutenm/templates/?a=2984


These,  at least, go to address what I was talking about and serve to highlight  my point.  Out of the thousands of cane/stick systems out there we  have, now, a total of, what three?, documented systems which makes an  effort to be useful to someone who needs a cane to stand or move.  There  might be a handful more to be found, if you hunt hard enough.

So, I stand by my original statement that, the biggest problem with this plan is that 99% of all the cane systems  I've ever seen (and I've looked at a lot) are predicated on the fact  that *YOU DON'T NEED A CANE TO STAND OR MOVE*.  Although, I'll have to modify statement from "I've seen precisely *one* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg" to "I've seen precisely *three* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg."

Three  whole systems, two of which appear to be specialized "one offs" only  available for live instruction in the instructors home-base, and the  third being a very uncommon Silat system.  I still stand by my statement: "But if you really need a cane to stand or walk, freaking *NONE* of the systems commonly available to you are worth diddly."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Skpotamus

In Indiana, most of the citizen arrest cases I've read about ended up with felony charges against the person(s) making the arrest.  

MICHIGAN CITY, Ind. (AP) - Two people who helped place a man under  citizen's arrest when he strayed onto the wrong property found  themselves in jail. ...were arrested and charged with criminal  confinement, a Class D felony punishable by up to three years in prison  and a $10,000 fine, and battery, a Class A misdemeanor which carries a  maximum penalty of a year in jail and a fine up to $5,000.  
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=456&amp;sid=845393    Guy was hunting on another persons property illegally.  Confinement charge was from them not letting him leave, battery was from them grabbing him and telling him to not resist that he was under arrest).  

A citizens arrest opens you up to some serious consequences if things go south.


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## Chris Parker

lklawson said:


> You  didn't read these links, did you.  The first is Shuey's "Cane Masters."   Though he talks about "seniors," I've yet to see any comprehensive  part of his system which is designed for use by someone who needs a cane to stand or move (you noticed that from my post, right?  Hello?)  And your second link, though also talking about "seniors" *specifically says* that it's Shuey's system.  Then, just a few lines later he says,  "There is a warning however. If you are not that sturdy on your feet to  use these moves, then you might not be able to do this. You might lose  your balance..." and "If  you are not agile enough to do these moves, then carrying a self   defense weapon like pepper spray or a personal safety alarm might be   better for you."
> 
> About his own system, the gentleman says (specifically), "If you can play tennis or golf, if you can dance. You can learn and practice the use of the cane or walking stick for self defence&#8230; "
> 
> Seriously now, playing Tennis and Dancing?  Does that sound like someone who needs a cane to stand or move?
> 
> 
> These,  at least, go to address what I was talking about and serve to highlight  my point.  Out of the thousands of cane/stick systems out there we  have, now, a total of, what three?, documented systems which makes an  effort to be useful to someone who needs a cane to stand or move.  There  might be a handful more to be found, if you hunt hard enough.
> 
> So, I stand by my original statement that, the biggest problem with this plan is that 99% of all the cane systems  I've ever seen (and I've looked at a lot) are predicated on the fact  that *YOU DON'T NEED A CANE TO STAND OR MOVE*.  Although, I'll have to modify statement from "I've seen precisely *one* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg" to "I've seen precisely *three* generic stick system which had any allowance that the fighter might have a bum leg."
> 
> Three  whole systems, two of which appear to be specialized "one offs" only  available for live instruction in the instructors home-base, and the  third being a very uncommon Silat system.  I still stand by my statement: "But if you really need a cane to stand or walk, freaking *NONE* of the systems commonly available to you are worth diddly."
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Completely agreed with you there, Kirk, with one small adendum. Although not "commonly available", I can think of a system of using a cane where the limited mobility is taken into account... and that's the way cane is taught with our organisation. The main reason is the fact that we developed the program after one of the seniors in Brisbane injured his ankle and needed a cane for a few months... so my Chief Instructor put together a program for when you might find yourself needing such an implement. And, personally, whenever I teach it, that's an aspect I highlight repeatedly, and have been known to display my annoyance at students for forgetting!


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## nightnews

Chris Parker said:


> Why do you need it? Not why do you want it, but based on your post, why do you need it?
> 
> 
> 
> If you get kicked out for carrying a weapon, don't go in there with a damn weapon! Don't look for ways to circumvent the rules or the law, you have no need.
> 
> 
> 
> Why, are you expecting to get attacked every three seconds? Seriously, get some reality, and lose the paranoia. Personally I will have no part in humouring or encouraging you.
> 
> 
> 
> Seriously? You will have a cane for when you can have a gun and don't need it?!? That doesn't even make sense! Lose the fantasy, lose the paranoia, and get some reality.
> 
> 
> 
> Normally I'd say good, but here, I will have no part in encouraging you. Point your instructor towards this thread, and the others you have posted, if they still want to teach you, fine. Personally, I'd sit you down for a very long chat, and see what your future may hold.


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## nightnews

It is better to have and not need than to need and not have.


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## Budo Brothers

Hi Guys!

I am new to the forum. I saw this post on wood weapons and I was wondering if I could get some advice from experienced martial artists?

My favorite weapon to train with currently is a hanbo. 

My question to you is what is your favorite type of wood and why?

I currently make my hanbos out of these types of wood:

white oak
ash
cherry
ipe
buinga
jatoba
hickory
canary
purple heart
Any feedback would be helpful.


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## tortilla

Not sure if you are looking for any more classes to try out, but I am very happy with mkguniversity.com

They have a lot of options for classes, including a self defense cane series.


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## lklawson

Zombie Resurrection!


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## lovelockhuck

kip42 said:


> I usually carry a BO staff when hiking. This can not allways be carried without getting kicked out of somewhere for having a weapon.
> 
> I want a handicap looking cane for places that I cant have anything else such as an air plain, no carry zone, etc. I want to put a rubber bottom on and use it for defense. This needs to look like a tradition cane so I can take it anywhere. Who makes the best ones? Are any unbreakable?
> 
> Found these
> 
> http://www.combatcanes.com/Why_Canes_.html
> 
> I want an unbreakable walking stick for when I can have a firearm and the stick will not matter. I have found these two. This would be carried where they area is no restrictive.
> 
> CITY STICK
> 
> 
> IRISH BLACKTHORN WALKING STICK
> 
> Any other ideas?
> 
> 
> I am taking a few classes for cane specific fighting.


try using the live stock cane  from your local livestock supply/feed store  sand the shellac off and soak it in mineral oil or it will shatter


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