# Jujutsu



## markulous (Jan 27, 2004)

Just wondering if there are a lot of people practicing Jujutsu and how practical they have found it.  My Sifu has had us go through some Jujutsu drills just so we know what to expect from people trying to do that stuff.  To me the system seems very flawed.  

Here is one example:  We had this martial arts magazine with one of the Gracies in it.  And we put it to use.  First the attacker had Gracie in a standard headlock.  Then basically he pulled him down to slip out of the headlock and put him in a armbar.  First mistake he makes it so the guy lands on top of him!!  I tried to soften the blow when I fell on my Sifu and he still said it hurt.  If we were on cement I could have jolted my whole body backwards and cracked his head(neck or bacK) in the ground.  Even if I didn't jolt myself I am not a small guy(6'4" 200 lbs.) my dead weight would knock the **** out of him.  Secondly with Jujutsu in general going to the ground when you have so many more options is not the brightest move.  You may be a Royce Gracie himself and have this punk on the street on the ground about to set him up when, WHAM!  His homies or some spectator kicks the **** out of you.

Okay now I know not all fights are standing up and having John McCarthy say "Are you ready?  Are you ready? LET'S GET IT ON!  Some days you will find yourself jumped from behind and you have to fight your way off the ground.  I just see way more practical ways of defending yourself.  Such as some Hapkido or Kung Fu.  Nothing slows an attacker down when your breaking his wrist or have an eagle claw to his throat.

I have only met two people that have studied Jujutsu and I really haven't heard them say anything useful.  One said he had a drill where they were basically wrestling around for 15 minutes.  And the other said a bunch of bullcrap: That every art came from Jujutsu they just added concussions to it  riiiiight.  And that it worked really good wrestling down drunk truckers.  Okay keywords there: Drunk....Truckers...$10 says a 12 year old kid with no martial art experience could do the same thing.

So I am not trying to blast the art I just want some more opinions.  Thanks...


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## MisterMike (Jan 27, 2004)

Brazilian Ju Jutsu != Ju Jutsu

(That's be geek for Brazilian Ju Jutsu is not Ju Jutsu.)

I think the Gracie's have created their own style of wrestling, but it depends on who you talk to. Seems they are big on submissions and ground fighting which may be a component of Ju Jutsu but isn't the whole picture.

A lot of arts did came from Ju Jutsu. It is very old. I'd direct your questions to someone other than a couple of guys you met or a magazine though, no matter what art it is.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jan 27, 2004)

While the Gracie's have revolution ground fighting, most of the stuff they show in there book on self defense that you refer to, I wouldn't do. Reading one book doesn't mean you full understand any particular art. Just like there are many different styles of kung fu, the same can be said about Jujutsu, jutsu, jujitsu, jiujitsu.


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## kenpo12 (Jan 27, 2004)

> Then basically he pulled him down to slip out of the headlock and put him in a armbar. First mistake he makes it so the guy lands on top of him!! I tried to soften the blow when I fell on my Sifu and he still said it hurt.



I think anyone could mess up a technique they pulled out of a magazine.  Granted I wouldn't want to go straight to the ground but their techniques work, and work well.


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## markulous (Jan 27, 2004)

That was just an EXAMPLE.  We didn't base our whole philosophy of Jujitsu on one magazine article.  Or base it off of Royce Gracie either.  And I didn't base it off of those couple guys I met.  My Sifu actually knows the basis of most martial arts.  From what he showed me and the other drills we went through it just doesn't seem to work for me when we spar or if I was fighting in the streets.  Which basically I wanted to know if it did work for anyone...

BTW, I know Jujitsu is very old.  If I am not mistaken it was originally for fighting against people(samurai's mostly) that had swords and you did not.  And I know that Judo and other arts have formed from it.  What this guy was trying to say was Kung Fu and Western Boxing and arts like that came from Jujitsu which is rediculous.

If anyone can answer my original question I would be most grateful.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jan 27, 2004)

I have been doing martial arts for about 15 years. 9 of them years has been Jujutsu. I have seen jujutsu work against guys from other styles of martial arts, Tae Kwon Do, Karate, Kung Fu, Boxing, other jujutsu people. I have seen it work against guys who are just street fighters, guys that want to brawl. As for Jujutsu, I think it is one of the better arts for combat. All styles of martial arts have good and bad things. Like most people have said, there is no undefeated martial arts out there. It is the person behind the art that makes it. I prefer combative jujutsu styles over the sport jujutsu styles. Going to the ground is not the best choice, but if someone makes that choice for you, You better know some stuff from the ground.


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## Robert Carver (Jan 27, 2004)

I have to agree with MisterMike. BJJ is not Jujutsu. BJJ is modified Judo which came from Jujutsu. It just emphasizes the newaza (ground techniques) of Judo. Originally, Jujutsu contained very little ground fighting. When Jigoro Kano developed Judo, most of the newaza he developed for the art came not from Jujutsu, but from Western wrestling. In traditional Jujutsu, going to the ground was the last choice for the battlefield. If you went to the ground on the battlefield, you were likely to have some ashiguru with a spear run you through. The battlefields of Japan where mass battles, and not the individual combat that you see in the movies. The last thing some ordinary soldier wanted to do was face a professional (samurai) in a fair fight!

I have been training in Jujutsu for over 32 years now (and I feel every bit of those years). I also have some background in other arts. Jujutsu can be a very effective art. As previously mentioned though, it has its strong points and its weak ones. As a general rule, it is not the art, it is the individual. So don't judge all of Jujutsu based on what you see with BJJ in some magazine, and I won't judge all of Kung Fu based on the Tai Chi I see at the local health club. 

In answer to your question regarding other arts and Jujutsu, I believe the person that told you that Jujutsu was the origin for all other arts is full of it. Jujutsu was the original "Japanese" art, and you can safely say that all empty-hand Japanese arts came from Jujutsu (Judo and Aikido). Karate came from China via Okinawa and eventually made it's way to Japan. Shorinji Kempo is directly related to the Chinese arts via the spread of Buddhism in Japan. If you want to really get picky, you can probably say the the Chinese arts are where most other arts ultimately came from. I have even heard from some sources that Jujutsu may have also originated in China.


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## Yari (Jan 28, 2004)

> _Originally posted by markulous _
> * ......
> 
> To me the system seems very flawed.
> ...



Ok, Your talking about somthing that's not just one system. There are many jujitsu/jujutsu systems. The efficiency of the system typically lies with the person doing it.

My impression of most of the jujitsu systems is that they are all round, and work in all areas. So I can't see a flaw in the system. But I see alot of people missusing it. 

Another thing is that techniques reflect points (area of concentration/of learning), and not an exact selfdefense technique. 

/Yari


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## jukado1 (Jan 28, 2004)

Jiu Jitsu as originally done is a complete system that includes atemi waza, or striking and kicking techniques, throws, holds, locks, chokes, defense against these attacks,  while not as in depth as karate, all of the striking, and kicks do work for self-defense, as far as Gracie or Brazilian jiu jitsu, it is an efficient method of fighting on the ground in some situations, but not the greatest stand alone system in the world.  the simple fact is the more weapons you have the more prepared you'll be,  " the more tools in your tool box, the more situations you can handle. "
 A hit with a hand, whether you call it boxing, gung fu, karate, judo, golf, or anything else you call it,  IS STILL A HIT WITH YOUR HAND.


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## kenpo12 (Jan 29, 2004)

> If anyone can answer my original question I would be most grateful



What was your question?

  I know the techinique you used for an example I have never had any problem preforming it.  You said the system was flawed based on your inability to safely preform a technique you saw in a magazine.  You said you were unimpressed by JiuJitsu techniques shown to you by your sifu.  Judging by your instructors title of "sifu"  I would guess you study a chinese system.  Is is possible your sifu doesn't know the jiujitsu techniques all that well? Why don't you go find a qualified BJJ instructor and then make a determination as to whether the system is flawed or not.


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## markulous (Jan 29, 2004)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *What was your question?
> 
> I know the techinique you used for an example I have never had any problem preforming it.  You said the system was flawed based on your inability to safely preform a technique you saw in a magazine.  You said you were unimpressed by JiuJitsu techniques shown to you by your sifu.  Judging by your instructors title of "sifu"  I would guess you study a chinese system.  Is is possible your sifu doesn't know the jiujitsu techniques all that well? Why don't you go find a qualified BJJ instructor and then make a determination as to whether the system is flawed or not. *



My original question was "how practical have you found this art?".  It was the very first line I wrote on my very first message.  I didn't post it in the form of a question though.  I apologise for that.

If you reread both of my posts not once did I base the entire system of Jujitsu off of that magazine article.  I said it was an EXAMPLE.  And in the picture and in the description it actually showed the guy landing on Gracie.

And it's quite possible my Sifu doesn't know the techniques that well.  He even said if anyone offers me a session or two to participate in him and I would go to it(any art for that matter).  I am just saying this is my opinion from what I have seen and used.  That's pretty much why I am here at this board to learn more about it.  If you or anyone can prove me wrong and teach me or my Sifu some good Jujitsu then excellent.  The more I know the better I become.


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## Yari (Jan 30, 2004)

> _Originally posted by markulous _
> The more I know the better I become. [/B]



As long as it is based on correct information (techniques etc....).

/Yari


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## kenpo12 (Jan 30, 2004)

> "how practical have you found this art?".



  I find BJJ very practical for one on one confrontations with no weapons.  I'm no master by any means but from what I know it is a great art for what it is.  It's not my preference for street self defense as I don't want to go to the ground on the street if I can help it.  But if you do find yourself on the ground I think BJJ is one of the better arts to know if you're down there.


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## Mwolfe (Feb 10, 2004)

BJJ is great for the ground -- but that's it.

I study traditional Kodakan Judo.  That means, we learn the strikes, locks (including leg/ankle/knee) that were taught but just never allowed in competition.

I can honestly say the few times I've defended myself, I walked away fairly easy.  The other guys didn't.


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## Kempo Guy (Feb 11, 2004)

FWIW, Gracie Jiu Jitsu offers a full curriculum on "self-defense" and although they are best known for their newaza (ground fighting), their stand up self-defense techniques are quite practical and would work against fully resisting opponents. This self-defense curriculum is taught at the Gracie Academy in Torrance. This basic self-defense curriculum is taught in a series of (I believe) 40 lessons and is the first thing you're taught when taking private lessons. 

markulous,
You should visit any BJJ academy. I see you're in No. Cal., theres several schools you could visit for a intro lesson in BJJ.
I would however like to mention that many schools train with an emphasis on competition (whether with or without a gi, and some also practice with NHB/MMA in mind). This does not take away from the effectiveness of what is practiced but the techniques may be applied differently for the street. In many academies they will specifically point out how it is used in sport vs. self-defense. 

I am primarily a traditional Japanese Jujutsu practitioner these days, but have trained in BJJ (and MMA) over the past couple of years. I think it would benefit any practitioner to seek out and experience BJJ under a legit instructor (whether in a seminar or class setting). I think it would open the eyes of many practitioners. Many of the techniques you thought worked will go right out the window... 

KG


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## markulous (Feb 11, 2004)

Where is a BJJ Academy up here?  My Sifu and I would definately take a drive and check out what they have got.


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## Kempo Guy (Feb 11, 2004)

Where are you located (i.e. what city)?


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## markulous (Feb 11, 2004)

I live in Lodi which is right by Stockton.  If we could schedule something, then we would go as far north as Sacramento or as far south as Modesto.


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## Kempo Guy (Feb 12, 2004)

I'd suggest visiting one of the following academies:

Brazilian Style Jiu-Jitsu Academy of Sacramento (Rickson Gracie Affiliate)
7909 Fair Oaks Blvd., Suite B
Carmichael, CA 95608
(916) 944-7835
www.dgweb.com/~sacbjj/

Werneck's World Class Jiu Jitsu
2440 Mission Avenue
Carmichael, CA 95608
916.487.7909
www.worldclassjiujitsu.com

Fight Control
Ralph Gracie Jiu Jitsu Affiliate School
2900 Standiford Ave. #14
Modesto, CA (Just across from the Vintage Faire Mall)
209.544.1615
www.fightcontrol.com

Let us know what your experiences are.
Have fun!

KG


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## lonewolf12563 (Feb 22, 2004)

Ok this is my take on the whole jujutsu thing.Jujutsu translated to me just means " hand to hand combat"  Most of the styles I have seen in the USA are based on combining Karate, Judo and Aikido. Three sports. This to me is not effective. You cannot fight in combat using sports rules and you will fight as you train. Bjj jujutsu does allocate a lot of time in the sport arena. And it is glorified Judo. But....Judo and BJJ is efective for the street. My main reason for saying this is because I have at least 5 fights every night I practice. There is alot to be said for experience...You learn how to think under pressure, breathe properly and formulate strategies on the go. These are all things needed in combat. To me Kung Fu and Karate spend way too much time kicking air or doing the monkey dance... whatever. That does not teach you anything except besides corrdiation or a cool dance. The coordiation and timing you need in combat can only be learned in combat. This is where Judo and Jujutsu win. We do it every night.
I agree that most of the selfdefence moves you see in Gracie Jujutsu against knife and gun are worthless. But so is Aikido and Karate. But then again who is teaching the art probally has never had combat training and is just teaching what he learn or formulated might work. So if you want to learn that, find a Real combat veteran, military or swat ect.
But as for the ground... the better you are on the ground the better your stand up will be. MMA, mixed martial arts is excelling in this area and giving the Gracie klan a tough time. The future is in MMA. Or you can call it Jujutsu because that is what MMA really is.
Check out my web site www.lonewolfjujutsu.com. Thanks Ed


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