# Taoist Tai Chi Society anyone?



## Taiji fan

Just wondered if anyone else had any dealings with them........they seemed to be a bit of a closed shop even cult like?  Has anyone else found their attitude to be  abit strange.  They seem to follow the teachings of someone called Moy Lin Shin (sp?) but their form looks to have been taken from Yang style.....


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## yilisifu

I've only heard of them but never had any contact with them.


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## East Winds

Yes, an interesting lot. Moy Lin Shin (the founder) took the Yang long form and bastardised it! For instance, the hips are always to be squared to the front, (closing the Kuas?) and the heels are always to be in a line. They continually break their root by bobbing up and down and they expressly prohibit any mention or practise of the martial aspect of the art, yet they call it Tai Chi? One of their stated aims is "Cultural exchange", yet they shun all contact with other forms and other Taiji organisations. 

There are two sister organisations Fung Loy Kok and Gei Pang set up by Moy and possibly funded/ subsidised by the Tai Chi Society. You can also become an Instructor with as little as 2 years experience!

What a pity they do not welcome contact with other practitioners of the art who I am sure would make them very welcome. It might of course also show up the inadequacies of their own form
 

Regards


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## Taiji fan

> What a pity they do not welcome contact with other practitioners of the art who I am sure would make them very welcome. It might of course also show up the inadequacies of their own form


 well that is what happened to me....I got in contact with a local branch to give some information on some stuff being organised in their area and they basically told me to bog off.  Since speaking to a  couple of folk I have found out that they practically brainwash people into not even believeing that any 'other taiji' exsists.  Another time a woman who claimed to have been studying Taoist Taiji phoned me an gave me a barrage of criticism about charging for my classes....apparently by taking a fee for classes I was creating and elitist organisation and in the true spirit of the Tao I should be giving taiji as a gift to the people :moon: :fart: would have been funny if I hadn't got to their website and found out their monthly fees were more than mine...:shrug:


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## East Winds

Another interesting aspect of their teachings is that although Moy Lin Shin specifically prohibited the teaching of any martial aspect in their practise, they quite happily run (fairly expensive) workshops on Sword, Sabre, Lok Hup and Xing-Y.!!!  Of course, presumably none of these aspects contains any martial content 

Regards


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## yilisifu

They sound like a bunch of New Age crispies who don't know much about Taiji and probably a good deal less about Taoism.


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by East Winds _
> *Of course, presumably none of these aspects contains any martial content *



As do so few of the classes provided on Taijiquan around the US...  Too many slow moving fancy dancers.

We just had a lady join our group in Washington.  She is from Taiwan originally, and practiced Taijiquan there.

She said that she learned more in the first day with us than she had the entire time she was learning in Taiwan.

Go figure.   :shrug:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu

Not meaning to blow our own horn..but that has a very familiar ring to it.


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## Matt Stone

I have been extremely lucky in the martial training I have had.

First I learned Yiliquan at the foot of the founder himself.  Later, I received tutoring from some of the seniors in Yiliquan, and am now training with the second seniormost student still actively training and teaching.

I trained under Guro John Lehmann, one of Datu Tim Hartman's 2nd degree black belts, and the WMAA representative for Japan.  His insight and skill were extraordinary.

I trained with Mr. Robert Rousselot, one of Taika Oyata's 4th dans, and a person whose personal skill, integrity, honesty and directness were examples of Midwestern values.  His understanding of Karate, and how the exact same movements corollated with the CMA that I study were flatly amazing.

I have also been very particular in pursuing tutelage under others.  I have found that, with few exceptions, there have only been a very small handful of MAists with whom I care to associate on any regular or formal basis, much less any with whom or under whom to train.

Sorry, but what I learned from Sifu Starr simply has yet to be replicated by anyone else.

That's not to say that I haven't met some fine, talented MAists.  I have.  But none of them have had anything to offer that could drag me away from Yiliquan (except maybe those I mentioned above).

Just my own personal (and biased) opinion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## East Winds

Yiliquan1

Finding the right teacher is the most difficult part of the Chinese Martial Arts. You are very lucky to have done so. I went down many blind alleys (sometimes the same alley more than once!!!!)  But after a while (and a few lost £'s )you know when you have arrived. That is the problem with the Taoist Tai Chi Society. The members are actively discouraged from exploring other forms of taiji. And if your teacher only has a couple of years experience, what sort of level of instruction are you going to get?  I heard it accurately described as "Happy Holiday Tai Chee".

Regards


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## yilisifu

Sounds like what we call "Fields and Flowers Tai Chi."


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## Taiji fan

> Sounds like what we call "Fields and Flowers Tai Chi."


 that sounds pretty....is that like meditation in motion then...can we wear tied dyed trousers too?:rofl: I really don understand these people that call tai cheee a martial art, that's just silly, everyone knows it is really about spirituality and allowing the free expression of cheeeee  (se)......:boing2: :sadsong:


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## yilisifu

Yep.  And a touch of modern jazz dancing thrown in for good measure!


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## chufeng

Does that mean they have tights on under their yoga pants?

chufeng


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## yilisifu

I'd never considered that, but I suppose it's a possibility.


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## East Winds

Had a guy came to one of my classes saying he had done a fair bit of Taiji before. I asked which style and he said he didn't know, but they did it in a circle with a candle in the middle to focus the energy I'm sure he must have worn tights 

Regards


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## chufeng

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## yilisifu

Afterwards, I'll bet they all sat around a campfire and sang "Kumbaya."


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## Taiji fan

although....this Taoist Tai chi lot seem to have a huge following...if their website is to be believed....I wonder how they have come into being and managed to maintain such a following


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## yilisifu

There are LOTS of new-age crispy types out there...especially ones who want to acquire special powers and "find their inner selves" WITHOUT HAVING TO DO ANY REAL WORK (especially that which causes sweat and sore muscles).

Like the timeless W.C. Fields said, "There's a sucker born every minute."  He also said, "Never give a sucker an even break or smarten up a chump."


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## East Winds

They are a hugely rich Society with charitable status which means they dont have to pay Tax on their subscriptions! The interesting thing, is when you ask which charities they support. They definitely believe that charity begins and ends at home.  They work on a pyramid selling basis and because they do not allow their members to explore other forms of Taiji, the members simply do not know any better:shrug: They state "Taoist Tai Chi is a form of Tai Chi developed by Master Moy Lin-Shin". No mention of Yang Cheng-fu then??? On second thoughts that is no bad thing. Cheng-fu would probably turn in his grave if he say what Moy had done to his form:fart: 

Best wishes


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## yilisifu

It'd be fun to go to one of their meetings...maybe we could talk them into swinging large, heavy stones from their scrotums!!!

(See Iron Crotch thread)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## East Winds

I'd go for that!!!!!:erg: That was the very first blind alley I went down in my Taiji training. (Taoist Tai Chi  that is, not the rock swinging). :boing1: 

Regards


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## yilisifu

Maybe that's how the posture "Snake Creeps Down" was created...someone had a very short string and a very heavy stone...


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## chufeng

I told you I renamed that one right?
I call it "Lizard lounges on tree limb."
I simply can't get that low anymore 

chufeng


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## yilisifu

You could if you'd use a six-inch string and a forty-pound stone...


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## chufeng

With all due respect, Sifu, it would then be....BAIT.

:asian:
chufeng


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## yilisifu

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Maika

Just throwing in my own two cents, but I've been doing this form of Tai Chi for about 2 months now. Safe to say that I haven't found any type of cult mentality or lack of acknowledging where the form comes from. 

On my 1st day I asked a few questions as to form and styles etc., most were answered and the ones there weren't I was given resources to look up myself. 

As for the money, and rich-status of the society.  The classes I paid for were the cheapest around my area, and yes granted they are a charitable organization the money does get spread around. I've seen at least 2 potluck fundraisers in my short time with the society dealing with "feed the homeless" issues. 

As for the instructors, I've had nothing but positive experiences. All the instructors volunteer their time and energy. This is not to say they do not know what they are doing, I've found my two 'begineer' instructors very well versed. 

I guess my main point is to not jump onto the 'cult' wagon and condemn the whole practice. Critique is good, but it should be constructive and well informed. 

I will eventually learn other forms of tai chi, but at this time it seems that the society provides the most accessible way (and many other people) to learn this art form.


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## Xue Sheng

Maika said:


> Just throwing in my own two cents, but I've been doing this form of Tai Chi for about 2 months now. Safe to say that I haven't found any type of cult mentality or lack of acknowledging where the form comes from.
> 
> On my 1st day I asked a few questions as to form and styles etc., most were answered and the ones there weren't I was given resources to look up myself.
> 
> As for the money, and rich-status of the society. The classes I paid for were the cheapest around my area, and yes granted they are a charitable organization the money does get spread around. I've seen at least 2 potluck fundraisers in my short time with the society dealing with "feed the homeless" issues.
> 
> As for the instructors, I've had nothing but positive experiences. All the instructors volunteer their time and energy. This is not to say they do not know what they are doing, I've found my two 'begineer' instructors very well versed.
> 
> I guess my main point is to not jump onto the 'cult' wagon and condemn the whole practice. Critique is good, but it should be constructive and well informed.
> 
> I will eventually learn other forms of tai chi, but at this time it seems that the society provides the most accessible way (and many other people) to learn this art form.


 
Are you training with the Taoist Tai Chi Society or just training Taiji?

I think this very old thread is about the Taoist Tai Chi Society not taiji in general.


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## newGuy12

Taiji fan said:


> Just wondered if anyone else had any dealings with them........they seemed to be a bit of a closed shop even cult like?  Has anyone else found their attitude to be  abit strange.  They seem to follow the teachings of someone called Moy Lin Shin (sp?) but their form looks to have been taken from Yang style.....



I have practiced with these people in my city before.  I wished to experiment with TaiChi and get a taste of it.  

So I went, and they welcomed me.  I kept going until I could do the entire form with them.  I felt my belly get loose, strange sensations in my belly, the muscles loosening.  They explained to me that that was an expected effect of the teaching.

I asked them about some martial applications... when do we see how they are applied to fight with?  They told me that they do not teach the applications.  They said that they are far more interested in the health effects, particularly for senior citizens.

I myself, nowadays, have no interest in this kind of study, primarily because I do not have the patience to try to learn a martial art which takes such a LONG TIME to learn!!!  That is my choice, it is a limitation of my personality!

Okay, I also wish to say this -- these people that I practiced with, who taught me this form, I have nothing bad to say about them.  They were mostly members of our orchestra in this city.  They are professional classical musicians.  They were the nicest, most decent, fine upstanding people!  They wished to benefit from this form by practicing, and by sharing it with others, never mind if they ever learned to fight.

Not once, not once did I hear anything bad about any other martial art or any other tai chi community.  

I am shocked at how you users talk about these people.  Perhaps I was just privy to a small group that was different?  But I think not.

Now, these health benefits are REAL.  There have been scientific studies done showing the benefits to the synovial fluid in the joints, particularly in the knees, from the slow motion load bearing exercise that these people teach.

They had these old people in there doing this form and they benefited from it.  Everyone had a good time, no harm done.  They are not claiming to be a fighting system.  Never did they bring that up.


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## grydth

NewGuy, I enjoy your posts and respect you, but I feel differently on this one. I am happy you received some benefit, but I don't believe it was from something I would ever refer to as "Tai Chi."

Usually I am all for tolerance, and have said so repeatedly. Please understand - Nobody has appointed me Grandmaster and Final Arbiter of All Things Tai Chi on MartialTalk.... this simply is another practitioner's opinion. Others feel as strongly about my style of Tai Chi! 

One man's innovation is another's heresy. But you know, it gets to where, in my opinion, some things cannot accurately be called Tai Chi or a Gong anymore. Examples are Falun Gong, Tai Chi Chi and this society.

I have a close friend whose experiences with this cult mirrors that of East Winds very closely. See the posts of his above this. Are these practices indicative of a reputable institution?

To me, it is legitimate where certain members of a Tai Chi group practice martial applications and others - beginners, nonviolents, the disabled - only practice for health and exercise. But when the roots and essence are extracted, and the martial aspect is completely absent - - - to me it is no longer Tai Chi.

Imagine we met at a Buffalo MT get together, and I invited you to join my family for a desert of chocolate cake. Afterwards, you said you kind of enjoyed the cake and I assured you it had vitamins and nutrients added. But when you persistently asked what it was made of, I admitted that my recipe had taken *all of the chocolate components* out. Questions : Was I initially fair and honest with you? Even though it may have been good...did I really serve you chocolate cake?


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## newGuy12

grydth said:


> To me, it is legitimate where certain members of a Tai Chi group practice martial applications and others - beginners, nonviolents, the disabled - only practice for health and exercise. But when the roots and essence are extracted, and the martial aspect is completely absent - - - to me it is no longer Tai Chi.



Well, I can see now that I spoke too soon!  I was too quick to run my mouth!

I admit that I was wrong to do that, and I wish to express that to you people, who share knowledge so freely and give me support in my practice with good threads to read.  

Maybe it is because I am just coming back into practice, and new to this board that I have such an impetuous spirit?  In any event, I will try to have restraint when I am reading things that I really know nothing about!

Regarding this society, again, I had only a passing interaction with them, and they certainly did NOT teach any kind of martial application, even to students who have been doing it for many years.  So, if one is wishing to learn to fight, then this would certainly be the wrong place to look for it!

Thank you for your patience with me.

All the Best,



Robert


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## grydth

You are being way too hard on yourself! Actually that was a pretty detailed and valuable first hand account that you provided. 

I got snookered by a questionable place once, probably lots of people here have. Pretty much the same as your experience - I came out in terrific shape.... but the art just wasn't real. 

Last time I looked on their website it seems the TTCS will have the last laugh.... they were building something that looked like a James Bond villain fortress, think it was in Canada.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

*When I was younger I visited The Taoist Tai chi society.*
*I recall how stiff everyone moved. I remember a student was having trouble performing a section involving a punch and the teacher said imagine you are punching or in another case said imagine you are blocking someone's punch. Yes they totally dismiss the martial applications, I doubt any knew what Fajing was Or knew very much details concerning Qi. I know Eva Wong who has wrote many works on Taoism had something to do with Moy but I am unsure how much she learned or was with him she dedicated one of her books to him.*
*As one Tai chi chuan teacher told me about Taoist Tai chi was this"There is no such thing as any Tai chi style called Taoist tai chi and all you have to do is read the Tai chi classics to see what they do is not Tai chi chuan" *


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## East Winds

Taoist Tai Chi Society Instructors are expressly forbidden to talk about or study any other form of Taiji, or to refer to the martial aspects of the art. This was an edict from Moy himself. Interestingly enough their "badge" still bears the character for Ch'uan of "Fist". They do however run workshops on Sword, Sabre and Liu Ho Ba Fa (Lok Hup Bat Fat). I fail to understand how you can study these arts without any martial intent. (Well I do understand, because I have seen Society members performing!!!!).:rofl:

Very best wishes


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## grydth

East Winds, I suspect many of the new students do not know any better. Whatever the TTCS and Justin Stone *the Originator* of Tai Chi Chih have made up to practice, it is not Tai Chi.....

 I believe each has intentionally kept "Tai Chi" in the names or their organizations to snooker newbies in. I wonder just how many people who "always wanted to try Tai Chi" are (mis)led into going to these places. If they called it "Justin Stone's Shake Your Bones", it just wouldn't have the cachet, would it?


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## East Winds

grydth,

I think you are absolutely right. When your a newby you don't know any better. The lure of the "charity" and the "carrot" of becoming an Instructor after about a year can be a great come-on. I attended several workshops "conducted" by Moy himself. Well I say conducted, but in reality they were run by "Moy's Boys" whilst he sat at the side and watched. I never ever saw Moy doing Tai Chi (except on video) and that wasn't all that good. There was a falling out between Moy and Eva Wong and she went her own way. Of course in the UK "Charitable Status" means you don't have to pay Value Added Tax (17.5%) on any of your takings. That is a good incentive for being a registered charity!!!!


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## Xue Sheng

Although the Tai Chi Chih people I have talked to all seem rather nice, I doubt the claims and background of it originator Justin Stone. However none have ever claimed it was a martial art and as far as my experience goes none have ever claimed it was Taiji, and that is a good thing because it is not Taiji

Tai Chi Chih was covered previously here by the way on MT

Tai Chi Chih
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30448&highlight=tai+chi+chih&page=2

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5208&highlight=tai+chi+chih

The Taoist Taiji society is another issue however and it is claiming to teach Taiji, which in my opinion at best is teaching neutered Taiji. Which is contributing to the demise of Taiji as a martial art. But then so are those that study Taiji for a year or 2 and then combine it with another martial (karate, aikido, Long Fist, etc.) art and claim they now do Taiji, martial Taiji and or combat Taiji when in fact they do not doing Taiji at all any more than a Yiquan person is doing Xingyiquan or vise versa


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## grydth

East Winds said:


> grydth,
> 
> I think you are absolutely right. When your a newby you don't know any better. The lure of the "charity" and the "carrot" of becoming an Instructor after about a year can be a great come-on. I attended several workshops "conducted" by Moy himself. Well I say conducted, but in reality they were run by "Moy's Boys" whilst he sat at the side and watched. I never ever saw Moy doing Tai Chi (except on video) and that wasn't all that good. There was a falling out between Moy and Eva Wong and she went her own way. Of course in the UK "Charitable Status" means you don't have to pay Value Added Tax (17.5%) on any of your takings. That is a good incentive for being a registered charity!!!!



One wonders who and what would be attracted by the prospect of being an instructor after only a year!  I've been practicing considerably longer than that, as have many here..... yet it takes just a visit to this Forum or to my personal library for me to realize how much I have yet to learn.... and as you once noted, how many new 'secrets' are awaiting my discovery in areas I believe I do know?

There are many benefits in the USA as well if one can attain a certain tax status.

If they in fact are teaching a mutated version of the traditional Yang Long Form, do they acknowledge that lineage?


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## East Winds

grydth,

It is only in the last few years they have acknowledged that the form is "based on Yang style". Before that it was advertised as a form, formulated specially by Master Moy based on teachings he received whilst a Taoist monk in a monastery in China. The sad fact is that it was possible to become an Instructor and be let loose on a public class after a year of learning Taoist Tai Chi. From your own experience you will know how much you knew about Taiji after a year!!!! But that about says all you need to know about the depth of their teaching.

Very best wishes


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## grydth

One sign post of our era is how much easier it is to prosper by doing ill than by doing good. 

I just revisited the extensive TTCS site. The fist on the badge is now gone, though they persist in calling their product Tai Chi Chuan. Master Moy is now credited with "transforming" Yang Tai Chi. 

It appears the original Moy died in the late 1990's. Wonder who's in charge now....

 There is a very impressive set of facilities at the Canada headquarters, showing that charity does indeed begin at home. They claim 30,000 members. 

It says the "sequence of moves" in108 form can be learned in a matter of 3 or 4 months (!).... and thence flows, one would guess, the instructors with a year of experience. The pictures are enlightening and the postures, well...

This is solely subjective on my part, but I was left with the impression of the Jim Jones contingent esconsed in a James Bond Villain's Fortress.


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## newGuy12

East Winds said:


> Before that it was advertised as a form, formulated specially by Master Moy based on teachings he received whilst a Taoist monk in a monastery in China.



For what its worth, this is how it was presented to me.


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## grydth

newGuy12 said:


> For what its worth, this is how it was presented to me.



All in all, they are far more convincing than the fake a batch of us fell for some years back.


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## Tai G

I encountered them a while back. My experience was that it seemsed like a pyramid sort of organization. The "instructor" had been practicing for only one year and basically couldn't answer any questions anyone had. All she could do is demonstrate the form for us. after about two seconds it was obvious that the principles of taijiquan were not present. If I remember right the "instructor" was a volunteer. What does that mean? It means all the money went to the organization. They also advertised heavily, reminding me of another group who many view as a pyramid group. The NKT Buddhist group.
I'm currently studying Taijiquan with a couple of teachers. One has a very well established school with a long history and a great reputation( I'm actually learning the beijing 24 from him as part of acupuncture school). The other teaches on the side in community centers but is very good. (Studying Chen Fake's lineage with him) Anyway, if you can look for Taijiquan principles being present in the instructor you'll be off to a good start.


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## DaPoets

Hey all, I stumbled upon this old dusty thread and the only thing I really want to point out is why Mr. Moy had beginners teaching beginners (instructing after only a few years).  His view was that if you instruct others you are teaching yourself as well, which is a great way to learn Tai Chi yourself.  These instructors would only be teaching the basics of the 108 movments and after that the students would then move on to a more senior instructor called a "Continuing Instructor" that has gone through an accredidation process to be able to correclty advance those beginner students into actually reaping the bennifits of doing Tai Chi.  There may be plenty of beginner instructors but not that many continuing instructors.  There are plenty locations around the U.S. that only have one or two continuing instructors and therefore those that studied with Mr. Moy for decades work hard at teaching around the country/world to ensure that all instruction is being done the same way and to increase the knowledge of the instructors.  For example, I attend classes in Buffalo where there are "ok" continuing instructors but once a week I go to Toronto to take a class from Tony Kwon who studied w/ Mr. Moy nearly everyday for 28 years.  That is a very different and extremely intense class compared to the average class you find around the world.

To touch on other points briefly (as there is another TTCS thread)

yes cultural exhange is the 3rd aim and objective yet we don't play nice w/ other tai chi schools (does bug me a bit but right now I'm still learning a lot... but when I am full....)

Instructors teach for free yet we charge monthly dues/donations... well we have to pay the rent and utilities.... And there is lots of fund raising that goes on and grant applications (I just was awarded w/ a grant from HSBC bank for the TTCS)

Charity is definatly there.  Feed the homeless is going on Saturday in my area all day.  MS walk next weekend as well.  Teaching Tai Chi to the elderly and those in health recovery sounds like a bit of Charity to me as well.

The TTCS isn't perfect and was only established in 1970 so yes it is a newer age style of Tai Chi compared to the long and deep history of Tai Chi but it's roots stem from Yang combinded w/ Taoist healing techniques, thus that up/down motion, loosing your root, extensions not practicle for combat, and squaring the hips.   It's not for everyone, especially those that want to learn more about many different forms of Tai Chi and believe me I'm one of them, but I want to become great at all the forms the TTCS teaches as I have gained greatly from them physically/emotionally/spiritually and so have many others.  

East Winds, when I move on from TTCS you will probably be one of the 1st I look to for advice on "what's next".  Tai Chi study is a multi-lifetime learning experience as one could never hope to master all the style or even learn the basics of all the styles, but you do have a chance of becoming pretty damn good at a few.

All the questions in this thread were correct to be asked and are asked often from what I see.  I hope this /rant answers a lot and clears a few things up.  And for those that don't know I'm 12 years into ttcs, studied under Mr. Moy before his passing, and now spend a great amount of time w/ his original students.


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

Glad you haven't deserted this board. Nice to hear a TTCS member being so open. It would be nice to think that this would permeate throughout the Society. I was a " Continuing Instructor" and now, of my 9 Instructors, 4 were former TTCS Instructors. Keep your open mind. Keep asking the Society questions and keep subscribing to this board.

Very best wishes


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## Formosa Neijia

Unfortunately my dealing with them in the past showed to them to be quite cult-like as well for the same reasons mentioned in this thread. The taiji I saw in a couple of the branches was some of the worst I have seen and I'm talking about the teachers, not the students. As has already been mentioned, beginers were perhaps teaching beginners -- something that shouldn't be allowed.

TTCS practices simply shut out other more knowledgable practicioners in smaller markets. I know of disciples of well-known teachers that can't compete with TTCS' non-profit status because the pyramid scheme that TTCS uses helps them spread like wild-fire in small areas. 

I won't knock anyone personally for what they practice. To each his own. But as an organization I totally disagree with what they are doing.


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## DaPoets

To each their own... Here in Buffalo I have visited about a dozen schools that claim to teach tai chi including the ymca and most of them were pretty sad, but their main arts were nice... I was getting the feeling that tai chi was getting thrown into the mix of these schools to have more to offer....  There are just a small number of places here that teach tai chi exclusively and I wasn't all that impressed by those either.  The beauty of the Buffalo branch of the TTCS is that it's the 1st in the U.S. and has a lot of long time members still teaching from the 1970's who were Mr. Moy's students.  BUT, to your point Formosa Neijia, there are plenty branches that don't have that opportunity and the most senior person in there may only have 5 years experience....

This is somewhat acceptable with in the TTCS because we don't view it as a branch but as an organization that has workshops and intensives all the time all over the world where students that want to further their study have every opportunity to do so with incredibly skilled instructors.  These events can be as short as half a day to as long as a week.  You get out of it what you put into it (yes I just used that darn phrase....)  If you just stay at your local branch you will only be as good as the best teacher there, and if that instructor has very little experience then the results are kinda obvious...

I think it's hilarious when people call the ttcs a cult...

1) it's a religious organization but 95% of it's members don't practice the religion, they just study tai chi
2) Taoism was nearly wiped out in China and when it comes here to the U.S. it's called satanic and cult like (not in Canada though) and some southern towns have been known to resist non-christian organizations from setting up shop with news media in one example showing TTCS members doing Tai Chi outside a city hall to show a town that didn't want them that they are there to practice tai chi and exercise the right of freedom of religion.
3)  Another hilarious bit... pyramid scheme???  If the TTCS is a pyramid scheme, then so is any church, boy scouts, girl scouts, sports leagues, sorroity, fraternity, etc.... that's just a stupid claim...   My frat has annual dues, lifetime membership dues, and we look to recruit others... so my Fraternity and every other fraternity out there is a pyramid scheme?
Pyramid schemes are highly illegal so please.....


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> 1) it's a religious organization but 95% of it's members don't practice the religion, they just study tai chi
> 
> 2) Taoism was nearly wiped out in China and when it comes here to the U.S. it's called satanic and cult like (not in Canada though) and some southern towns have been known to resist non-christian organizations from setting up shop with news media in one example showing TTCS members doing Tai Chi outside a city hall to show a town that didn't want them that they are there to practice tai chi and exercise the right of freedom of religion.


 
A lot of things were nearly wiped out in China but I do not want to go into this here and as I said before in another post you need to check your Chinese history and current events in the PRC as well. So further discussion there IMO is not possible at this time.

Not saying there haven't been issues with ANY eastern religion that came to the US but I have not yet heard any actual practicing Taoist from a real live "long time" temple in China ever being labeled "Satanic". But then again if I think about some of the more puritanical views that float around the US I do imagine it is possible

And for the Record Fulan Gong likes to make people think it is only doing Qigong and it is most certainly a cult. But I am not ready, just yet, to call TTCS a cult but the justification of most only does Taiji and practices no religion is not a defense. And many in Fulan Gong only do Qi Gong and it is still a cult organization so this too is not a defense. 

And also for the record Taiji has been in the US since about 1960. My Sifu got here around then and then of course William CC Chen got here in 1962 and Cheng Manching got here 1964. I admit I was way too young then to know much about any of this but I do not remember any persecution being mentioned.


----------



## Formosa Neijia

DaPoets said:


> it's a religious organization but 95% of it's members don't practice the religion, they just study tai chi



That raises the question: why does it have a non-profit status as a religious organization?


----------



## DaPoets

Because it is a religious organization...  I thought I was clear on that.  "Taoist" Tai Chi and yet the TTCS practices a combination of the 3 religions (Confusianism, Buddhism, Taoism).  The main temple in Orangeville is called the 3 religions temple and the smaller temples around it have other things like the diety room and others.  Taoist Tai Chi is one of the things the TTCS teaches and will make Taoist Tai Chi available to all who wish to learn it.  If people want to explore the religious side of things then great that's on them.  Freedom of religious is a wonderful thing.  If you go to Orangeville, there is chanting and cerimonies held every morning, the temples are opened and closed in traditional ways, and offering and chants are done for the living and the deceased.  TTCS is a religious organization and is partnered with FLK as well in this respect.

When I was young I attended bible study but I wasn't christian... I hope that puts things into perspective.

Tai Chi was here way before the 1960's.....  Chinese workers in the later 1800's for example in california who gave huge contributions to the manual labor needed to build the infrastructure out there.  I'll have to dig that up but I remember seeing old black and white photos of them practicing tai chi in the mornings before the work day began.


----------



## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Tai Chi was here way before the 1960's..... Chinese workers in the later 1800's for example in california who gave huge contributions to the manual labor needed to build the infrastructure out there. I'll have to dig that up but I remember seeing old black and white photos of them practicing tai chi in the mornings before the work day began.


 
Sorry, I should clarify, here in the early 60s and made openly available to Westerners.

And Chinese built much of Southern California as well as railroads and a few other things; I know their history in the US. And there were a WHOLE lot of discriminatory practices used on the Chinese that first came here for multiple reasons but mainly just because they were Chinese. A lot were killed doing incredibly dangerous jobs for the railroad that they would not give to a westerner and that is just one example.

If you want to put up old pictures by all means do post them I would like to see them. But I am fully aware that when the Chinese started coming with them came their martial arts, religion, food, (aka culture). However as a practice they did not start teaching westerners any of it until MUCH later.


----------



## DaPoets

Yes it was a very hard time for them because as slavery was ending that same evil mentality was still around and one of the massacres that happened in the late 1800's ended w/ 5 china towns destoryed and nearly chinese killed.  A similar thing happened to black wall street in oklahoma when the town was burned to the ground because the businesses were doing so well which were owned and operated by non-whites.  In the later 1800's many chinese actually left the U.S. for Canada as well as just going back to Asia because it was just ridiculous.  Asian's and Native Americans got along great as well as blacks and Asians having a mutual respect but stayed at an arms length.  It was a time of keep to your own kind due to rampant oppression.  

As of right now I can only find old pics of railroad workers, miners, road builders, but I'm sure I'll come accross some of the old tai chi pictures sooner or later.  I had a bunch when I was in college but that old maxtor hardrive crashed many years ago...

The messed up thing is that the Chinese and Japanese who came to the U.S. for work, did so in hopes of a better, higher quality life....  All they found was life threatening work, lack of medical care, hate, oppression, and work that was dancing the fine line of employee and slave...

People like Nate Turner (Nate Turner's Revolt 1831) are heroes of mine.  Those who stand up for what is right and fight that which is wrong.


----------



## East Winds

DaPoets,

It was always the TTCS precept the "Tai Chi would be available to all" what they forgot to add was "providing you can pay for it". You are required to pay a monthly/yearly fee whether you attend classes or not. You also forgot to add that workshops and intensives cost extra. So if you want to improve your "Tai Chi", you have to pay handsomley to dos so. It is the Instructors who work for nothing, the tuition costs you, as a student!! 

I also understand that Fung Loy Kok has now taken front stage. This (along with Gei Pang) was always the "political" wing of the TTCS and kept very much in the background by Moy. 

Because of it's insularity, it will always attract the term "cult". Until it becomes less authoritarian, it will always be that way.

Very best wishes


----------



## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Yes it was a very hard time for them because as slavery was ending that same evil mentality was still around and one of the massacres that happened in the late 1800's ended w/ 5 china towns destoryed and nearly chinese killed. A similar thing happened to black wall street in oklahoma when the town was burned to the ground because the businesses were doing so well which were owned and operated by non-whites. In the later 1800's many chinese actually left the U.S. for Canada as well as just going back to Asia because it was just ridiculous. Asian's and Native Americans got along great as well as blacks and Asians having a mutual respect but stayed at an arms length. It was a time of keep to your own kind due to rampant oppression.
> 
> As of right now I can only find old pics of railroad workers, miners, road builders, but I'm sure I'll come accross some of the old tai chi pictures sooner or later. I had a bunch when I was in college but that old maxtor hardrive crashed many years ago...
> 
> The messed up thing is that the Chinese and Japanese who came to the U.S. for work, did so in hopes of a better, higher quality life.... All they found was life threatening work, lack of medical care, hate, oppression, and work that was dancing the fine line of employee and slave...
> 
> People like Nate Turner (Nate Turner's Revolt 1831) are heroes of mine. Those who stand up for what is right and fight that which is wrong.


 
All horrible yes, but one thing you need to take into account when it comes to Chinese, they tend to be a very closed culture and they had little trust of outsiders and the further back you go the more closed they get. And the higher quality of life many were looking for was not here, it was in China. They wanted to come here, make money send much of it back to China and later go back to China and live well. Sadly many were denied this by the way they were treated once they got here. 



East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> You are required to pay a monthly/yearly fee whether you attend classes or not. You also forgot to add that workshops and intensives cost extra. So if you want to improve your "Tai Chi", you have to pay handsomley to dos so. It is the Instructors who work for nothing, the tuition costs you, as a student!!


 
This I did not know and that is quite interesting.


----------



## DaPoets

The bills have to be paid, I have said this before....  How can an organization run with out donations and that is just what it is, a tax deductable donation.  Those who can pay, do pay, those who can't, either pay a lot less or not at all.  The workshops which are great are great ways to raise money and there are plenty times when donations are waived for those that can't afford them.  Like a yearly event called Continuing Instructor in Training week (CIT week) that does cost money to go but people get waivers all the time due to their financial situation or pay over time.  

Gotta pay the bills and I will always defend that.  What school doesn't have bills to pay?

edit--  The instructors pay the same dues as everyone else too....


----------



## mograph

Greetings, all.

If I may, I'd like to share my experience with the TTCS over the roughly six years that I was a member in the Toronto area. I should say that I never had the opportunity to take instruction from Mr. Moy.

I've found that at the grass roots level, the members have been very warm, open and accepting. In particular, when my wife and I visited the San Francisco branch, we were welcomed, and as a guest, I was even invited to share my understanding of the moves. It was a great experience, and one of the advantages of belonging to such a large organization -- you can show up and take a class at any branch. 

Regarding the content of the instruction, here's my take on it. The tradition from Mr. Moy is to teach a student what he or she needs to know at that moment, occasionally stepping outside the form, then stepping back into it when the old habit has been corrected. For example, I believe the squaring of the hips is designed to open up the joints of new students and begin the habit of turning. Once the joints have been opened that way, then the student can progress to opening up the kua, with less turning into the front hip, and more opening of the back hip (in front bow stance). As another example, the up-and-down motion is also temporary, to teach the student to relax into a sit at both ends of the posture (forward and back). The up-and-down is eventually reduced in favour of maintaining a root. This is my impression.

This is good, in that it addresses the student's specific issues at that specific time, and hopefully will lead to practice of the form with a more relaxed, open body, with more "internal" intentions, compared to someone merely mimicking an accomplished instructor. 

However, there are downsides to this. 1) If a student is pushed into instructing too soon, he/she may believe that their personal, current level of instruction is "the form", and so that instruction becomes institutionalzed, especially if the student starts a new branch. 2) It can frustrate students when they are asked to change their previous form because the old one isn't needed any more. I believe this may lead the leadership at the TTCS to discourage the practice of stepping outside the form, and as a result, some instructions might become institutionalized as "the form". 3) Related to this, a number of students believe that the TVOntario book and movie represent "the form", but it is just a guide for beginners. 

In short, I don't think that anyone should look at someone doing TTCS form and assume it's a good example of what Mr. Moy was capable of teaching. That student may be stepping outside the form at that point in time. 

Regarding insularity, my advice to TTCS members would be: keep your eyes open, and read a lot about the basic principles of Tai Chi such as rooting, alignment, and so on ... from other sources. 

My 2 cents. Thanks for reading ...


----------



## DaPoets

Thanks Mograph!


----------



## Formosa Neijia

DaPoets said:


> Because it is a religious organization...  I thought I was clear on that.  "Taoist" Tai Chi and yet the TTCS practices a combination of the 3 religions (Confusianism, Buddhism, Taoism).



You're not getting the point. It's _supposed_ to be a religion but as you say 95% of the people involved don't even make an attempt to study or practice the religion. Instead they study taiji.

That's just not right. It's hiding a commercial business under a religious veneer. 

And I understand the business model that's being used. We have groups here in Taiwan that use it too. It's cheap but having large numbers of members that pay annual dues, seminar fees, buy uniforms, make donations to the organizations "charitable events," etc. can still rack up the bucks.


----------



## oxy

Xue Sheng said:


> And for the Record Fulan Gong likes to make people think it is only doing Qigong and it is most certainly a cult.
> .
> .
> .
> And many in Fulan Gong only do Qi Gong and it is still a cult organization so this too is not a defense.



I haven't seen any credible evidence as to the cultness of Falun Gong. All the "evidence" I've seen have been assertions by the CCP which has never been substantiated.


----------



## Formosa Neijia

oxy said:


> I haven't seen any credible evidence as to the cultness of Falun Gong. All the "evidence" I've seen have been assertions by the CCP which has never been substantiated.



I'm no fan of the CCP but Falun Dafa is widely seen as a cult here in Taiwan too. I believe they are as well.


----------



## oxy

Formosa Neijia said:


> I'm no fan of the CCP but Falun Dafa is widely seen as a cult here in Taiwan too. I believe they are as well.



It's not that they are perceived to be a cult that is the problem, for me, but the reasons for which they get that perception.

All the reasons I have encountered are either made by the CCP, or are made by people who have heard second hand rumours (which sounds suspiciously like the ones made by the CCP) or based on completely flawed logic/studies.

I'm an atheist of a secular humanist bent. I've read their Falun Dafa book and none of it strikes me as cultish. Sure, they have their beliefs, but nothing I haven't encountered in other major religions. The fundamentalist Christian churches in the US pose more of a threat than Falun Dafa will and I don't see them portrayed as a cult.


----------



## Xue Sheng

oxy said:


> I haven't seen any credible evidence as to the cultness of Falun Gong. All the "evidence" I've seen have been assertions by the CCP which has never been substantiated.


 
Whatever you wish to think is ok with me I have not the energy or the desire to debate it.


----------



## DaPoets

It's freedom of religion... It's a religious organization that teaches Taoist Tai Chi... What is not to get or understand.  99.99% of it's member could be of other faiths/beliefs but in the end it is a religious org and if you want to experience that side of it, there is a world of stuff to experience.  I chant, I pay my respects to the living and the dead when I'm at the temples, I take part in the different ceremonies and festivals that go on at times, so please don't even start with judging who can practice what religion and be treated and not be treated as a religious organization.

Again I would go to Bible study but I'm not christian... I would go to Catholic schools and I'm not Catholic, I would go to events held by the nation of islam, and I'm not muslim, but in your view, because I went to those things but don't belive in them then those organizations should not be considered religious but of a commercial nature?  

it's that type of religious intollerance that has created such a dark cloud on the history of religion, intollerance, and hate.


----------



## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> It's freedom of religion... It's a religious organization that teaches Taoist Tai Chi... What is not to get or understand. 99.99% of it's member could be of other faiths/beliefs but in the end it is a religious org and if you want to experience that side of it, there is a world of stuff to experience. I chant, I pay my respects to the living and the dead when I'm at the temples, I take part in the different ceremonies and festivals that go on at times, so please don't even start with judging who can practice what religion and be treated and not be treated as a religious organization.
> 
> Again I would go to Bible study but I'm not christian... I would go to Catholic schools and I'm not Catholic, I would go to events held by the nation of islam, and I'm not muslim, but in your view, because I went to those things but don't belive in them then those organizations should not be considered religious but of a commercial nature?
> 
> it's that type of religious intollerance that has created such a dark cloud on the history of religion, intollerance, and hate.


 
First I think you are taking this someplace it was not going which is into the area of religious intolerance. I do not see any other post here that hints at that at all. 

I do not think anyone is displaying religious intolerance towards Taoism but they are questioning the motives and objectives of the TTCS. The fact that the word "Taoist" is in the name is just a label not the religion and if you cannot seperate those then that is another issue.

Second I do not believe the TTCS teaches Taoist Taiji (Tai Chi) to be 100% correct here. They appear to teach a modified Yang style which is not something practiced by Taoists at Wudangshan, Baiyunguan, Jinding, Longhushan, Nanyangong, etc. 

It again just happens to be a modified Yang practiced by a group that has labeled themselves "_Taoist_ Tai Chi Society" but that does not make it Taoist Taijiquan.


----------



## DaPoets

Seeing how Taoist Tai Chi was developed by a Taoist Master who lived in Taoist Temples, founded and co-founded Taoist Temples in Hong Kong and other places I think he has the right to call the form Taoist Tai Chi when the healing and longevity principles of Taoism were applied to the Yang Style of Tai Chi to create a new form with a focus just on health and not on external martial application.  Just because Wudangshan, Baiyunguan, Jinding, Longhushan, Nanyangong don't practice it doesn't invalidate it in the least bit especially when it is a form that was created as recently as the 1970's.  Master Moy came to North America wanting to teach Lok Hup Ba Fa but realized that the average person here wasn't strong enough to learn and practice it correctly, so he developed Taoist Tai Chi to help people get healthier so they could then eventually learn other forms like Lok Hup Ba Fa, Hsing-I and others.

But I grow tired of defending the TTCS on this board so this is my last post about this matter for a while.  I look forward to engaging discusions of other forms, techniques, and applications.


----------



## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Seeing how Taoist Tai Chi was developed by a Taoist Master who lived in Taoist Temples, founded and co-founded Taoist Temples in Hong Kong and other places I think he has the right to call the form Taoist Tai Chi when the healing and longevity principles of Taoism were applied to the Yang Style of Tai Chi to create a new form with a focus just on health and not on external martial application. Just because Wudangshan, Baiyunguan, Jinding, Longhushan, Nanyangong don't practice it doesn't invalidate it in the least bit especially when it is a form that was created as recently as the 1970's. Master Moy came to North America wanting to teach Lok Hup Ba Fa but realized that the average person here wasn't strong enough to learn and practice it correctly, so he developed Taoist Tai Chi to help people get healthier so they could then eventually learn other forms like Lok Hup Ba Fa, Hsing-I and others.
> 
> But I grow tired of defending the TTCS on this board so this is my last post about this matter for a while. I look forward to engaging discusions of other forms, techniques, and applications.


 
DaPoets

I was not attacking Taoist Taiji or the Taoist Tai Chi Society I was talking purely based on history and lineage. It is what it is, modified Yang, and I am sorry that is a problem but it is not a Taoist form of Taiji form any of the old Taoist styles currently in China. That is unless you go for the questionable Zhang Sanfeng connection.

If you want to call it Taoist Tai Chi because a Taoist modified Yang style to make it then so be it call it Taoist Tai Chi. 

Xue Sheng


----------



## DaPoets

This was just sent to me.
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=842998


Canadian Heritage



Apr 11, 2008 15:00 ETThe Government of Canada is Proud to Participate in Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada's Festival of Health and Longevity
VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwire - April 11, 2008) - The Honourable Jason Kenney, Secretary of State (Multiculturalism and Canadian Identity), will speak tomorrow at the Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada's Festival of Health and Longevity.

"Over the past 38 years, the Taoist Tai Chi Society has grown to become an international organization with thousands of members in branches across British Columbia, Canada, and the world, promoting a proactive approach to health care among its members and the public," said Secretary of State Kenney. "The Government of Canada considers Canada's diversity to be one of our greatest assets, and we are committed to strengthening our pluralism and national cohesion."

"We are pleased to be celebrating our first year in our new location and our 25th year of teaching these valuable health-improving arts in Vancouver, as entrusted to us by our founder, Master Moy Lin Shin," said Dr. Barb Conway, President of the Vancouver branch of the Taoist Tai Chi Society. "The Festival of Health and Longevity gives us an opportunity to reach out to the community to let them know about the value of Taoist tai chi internal arts of health for restoring and maintaining good health."

The Festival of Health and Longevity celebrates and promotes the many benefits of Taoist tai chi's internal arts and methods for physical, mental, and spiritual health and well-being. The festival also marks the first anniversary of the society's new building in Vancouver.

The Government of Canada is committed to reaching out to all Canadians and is developing lasting relationships with ethnic and religious communities in Canada. It encourages these communities to participate fully in Canadian society by enhancing their level of economic, social, and cultural integration.

This news release is available on the Internet at www.canadianheritage.gc.ca under Media Room.


----------



## Formosa Neijia

DaPoets said:


> It's freedom of religion... It's a religious organization that teaches Taoist Tai Chi... What is not to get or understand.
> it's that type of religious intollerance that has created such a dark cloud on the history of religion, intollerance, and hate.



*It's a business immorally hiding behind a religious front in order to turn a profit by not paying taxes. What is hard to understand?*

Let me make it clearer for you. 

Imagine you're a business man that sells a product that you've invested a lot of time in. Then a "church" that says they worship Guan Gong -- the Chinese god of business -- moves in next door. But 95% of what they do is sell the exact same product that you do. Only instead of a high quality/low volume model (what is arguably needed to spread decent product like taiji) they use a low quality/ high volume scheme. They hide behind their tax-free status to do this. Then to make things worse, they empower their customers to go sell the product with the same tax-free, low quality model.

If you were a businessman in such a situation, I think you'd see this real quickly. 

BTW your attempts to paint me as some hick fundamentalist with a grudge against daoism won't work.


----------



## grydth

DaPoets said:


> This was just sent to me.
> http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release.do?id=842998
> 
> 
> Canadian Heritage
> 
> 
> 
> Apr 11, 2008 15:00 ETThe Government of Canada is Proud to Participate in Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada's Festival of Health and Longevity
> VANCOUVER, BRITISH COLUMBIA--(Marketwire - April 11, 2008) - The Honourable Jason Kenney, Secretary of State (Multiculturalism and Canadian Identity), will speak tomorrow at the Taoist Tai Chi Society of Canada's Festival of Health and Longevity.
> 
> "Over the past 38 years, the Taoist Tai Chi Society has grown to become an international organization with thousands of members in branches across British Columbia, Canada, and the world, promoting a proactive approach to health care among its members and the public," said Secretary of State Kenney. "The Government of Canada considers Canada's diversity to be one of our greatest assets, and we are committed to strengthening our pluralism and national cohesion."
> 
> "We are pleased to be celebrating our first year in our new location and our 25th year of teaching these valuable health-improving arts in Vancouver, as entrusted to us by our founder, Master Moy Lin Shin," said Dr. Barb Conway, President of the Vancouver branch of the Taoist Tai Chi Society. "The Festival of Health and Longevity gives us an opportunity to reach out to the community to let them know about the value of Taoist tai chi internal arts of health for restoring and maintaining good health."
> 
> The Festival of Health and Longevity celebrates and promotes the many benefits of Taoist tai chi's internal arts and methods for physical, mental, and spiritual health and well-being. The festival also marks the first anniversary of the society's new building in Vancouver.
> 
> The Government of Canada is committed to reaching out to all Canadians and is developing lasting relationships with ethnic and religious communities in Canada. It encourages these communities to participate fully in Canadian society by enhancing their level of economic, social, and cultural integration.
> 
> This news release is available on the Internet at www.canadianheritage.gc.ca under Media Room.



This contributes exactly zero to the discussion at hand. 

If only volume of print could substitute for substance, we might have some firm answers about this suspect outfit..... but said substitution cannot be made, and 'things just get curiouser and curiouser.'


----------



## Myrmidon

grydth said:


> This contributes exactly zero to the discussion at hand.
> 
> If only volume of print could substitute for substance, we might have some firm answers about this suspect outfit..... but said substitution cannot be made, and 'things just get curiouser and curiouser.'



*True... And I would add this: "The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained."*


----------



## Myrmidon

DaPoets said:


> Seeing how Taoist Tai Chi was developed by a Taoist Master who lived in Taoist Temples, founded and co-founded Taoist Temples in Hong Kong and other places I think he has the right to call the form Taoist Tai Chi when the healing and longevity principles of Taoism were applied to the Yang Style of Tai Chi to create a new form with a focus just on health and not on external martial application.



*Are you suggesting that "Taoist" Tai Chi is superior to traditional Yang style taijiquan in improving the health of those who practice it?*




> But I grow tired of defending the TTCS on this board so this is my last post about this matter for a while.  I look forward to engaging discusions of other forms, techniques, and applications.


*
Techniques and applications? I am listening...*


----------



## mograph

With respect, there seem to be three kinds of people who express opinions regarding the TTCS:

1. members of the TTCS,
2. non-members,
3. ex-members.

In my experience, I've found that _ex-members_ express the most balanced and informed opinion regarding the TTCS in the greater martial arts context. For what it's worth.

Disclosure: I'm an ex-member.


----------



## DaPoets

What about current members with previous martial arts experience....  I would say that's a 4th type as there are plenty with no experience at all.  I would say I'm that 4th type.



mograph said:


> With respect, there seem to be three kinds of people who express opinions regarding the TTCS:
> 
> 1. members of the TTCS,
> 2. non-members,
> 3. ex-members.
> 
> In my experience, I've found that _ex-members_ express the most balanced and informed opinion regarding the TTCS in the greater martial arts context. For what it's worth.
> 
> Disclosure: I'm an ex-member.


----------



## DaPoets

With this logic, all the Catholic schools I went to growing up should close since it's unfair that they are really businesses hiding behind a religious front?  Wow you are funny...



Formosa Neijia said:


> *It's a business immorally hiding behind a religious front in order to turn a profit by not paying taxes. What is hard to understand?*
> 
> Let me make it clearer for you.
> 
> Imagine you're a business man that sells a product that you've invested a lot of time in. Then a "church" that says they worship Guan Gong -- the Chinese god of business -- moves in next door. But 95% of what they do is sell the exact same product that you do. Only instead of a high quality/low volume model (what is arguably needed to spread decent product like taiji) they use a low quality/ high volume scheme. They hide behind their tax-free status to do this. Then to make things worse, they empower their customers to go sell the product with the same tax-free, low quality model.
> 
> If you were a businessman in such a situation, I think you'd see this real quickly.
> 
> BTW your attempts to paint me as some hick fundamentalist with a grudge against daoism won't work.


----------



## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> With respect, there seem to be three kinds of people who express opinions regarding the TTCS:
> 
> 1. members of the TTCS,
> 2. non-members,
> 3. ex-members.
> 
> In my experience, I've found that _ex-members_ express the most balanced and informed opinion regarding the TTCS in the greater martial arts context. For what it's worth.
> 
> Disclosure: I'm an ex-member.


 
So is East Winds


----------



## DaPoets

Yep and I greatly respect his point of view on this matter and will also look to some guidance from him when I branch out from TTCS again sometime in the future.

My history is short Pre-TTCS but I have done this:

Yang Style Tai Chi Chuan
Praying Mantis Kung Fu
Karate
Tae Kwon Do
Wrestling

I am clearly much more advanced in TTCS Tai Chi than any of the other forms but those other styles led me to appreciate how much I am able to bennifit from TTCS as well as how much more is out there that I will eventualy learn from other styles later in my  life.


Xue Sheng said:


> So is East Winds


----------



## mograph

DaPoets said:


> What about current members with previous martial arts experience....  I would say that's a 4th type as there are plenty with no experience at all.  I would say I'm that 4th type.



Yeah, I'll buy that.

1. current members of the TTCS,
2. non-members of the TTCS,
3. ex-members of the TTCS,
4. current members with martial arts experience outside the TTCS.


----------



## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Yeah, I'll buy that.
> 
> 1. current members of the TTCS,
> 2. non-members of the TTCS,
> 3. ex-members of the TTCS,
> 4. current members with martial arts experience outside the TTCS.



If that is the case then there would also be a 5th type

Non-member with martial arts experience which just about takes in everyone on MT.

And there could be a 6th type 
Non-member with Chinese martial arts experience 

And a 7th type
Non-member with Taijiquan experience.

I would then fall into groups 2, 5, 6, and 7 as would many others on MT

Member or not if you watch the form and know what you are looking at you can get a pretty good idea of what is going on as far as the form(s) are concerned.

As to the internal operation of TTCS I have no doubt a member or ex-member would have a much better idea about it than I.


----------



## PHElwood

I trust the reference to a "James Bond villain's fortress" is not about the traditional Chinese temple which seems quite authentic and looks very much like the one pictured at the top of this webpage.


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## PHElwood

DaPoets said:


> The bills have to be paid, I have said this before.... How can an organization run with out donations and that is just what it is, a tax deductable donation. Those who can pay, do pay, those who can't, either pay a lot less or not at all. The workshops which are great are great ways to raise money and there are plenty times when donations are waived for those that can't afford them. Like a yearly event called Continuing Instructor in Training week (CIT week) that does cost money to go but people get waivers all the time due to their financial situation or pay over time.
> 
> Gotta pay the bills and I will always defend that. What school doesn't have bills to pay?
> 
> edit-- The instructors pay the same dues as everyone else too....


 
Yes, and IMHO (as a club administrator) the "membership dues" system is actually the best way to manage a local club where you have monthly expenses to cover, regardless of class attendance.  I saw someone in a previous post object to the idea of having to pay whether you attend classes or not, but landlords require the rent each month regardless of whether the facilities are used or not. And this is normal practice for most fitness clubs (and some martial arts clubs too, I'm sure) and the good part of this kind of "monthly dues" system is that you can attend as many classes as you want, which, in the case of an international organization, means you can attend classes in other towns and even other countries.


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## East Winds

The objection is not to the fact that you have to pay for instruction but rather to the level and quality of instruction offered in return for that payment!!!!!


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## mograph

East Winds said:


> The objection is not to the fact that you have to pay for instruction but rather to the level and quality of instruction offered in return for that payment!!!!!



Then there's the mention of "accredited" instructors in marketing materials. Accreditation is meaningless when an organization accredits its own instructors.


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## Lotus

I've studied Chen for several years, though I'm no expert.  I saw some people doing a demonstration of this Taoist Tai Chi at a local event, and they were all pretty bad at it, or else, if they are thought to be good at it, it bore little resemblance to any skilled tai chi that I've ever seen (and I've travelled in China, to some of the centres of the art).  I can't imagine who their teacher was.  It didn't seem to follow many of the principles that I've been taught.

They were advertising 'open house' events, where one could go and find out about it.  Their website talks about chanting and other things which would make me consider it religious, and wonder if it is potentially cult-like.  They all had identical t-shirts, too.  NB I'm not saying that it is a cult - I don't have the personal experience of it to judge that.

I suppose that I naturally mistrust individuals who go out on a limb, and supposedly create their own style/form/whatever.  There are so many, which might bear some resemblance to yoga, or Buddhism, and so many which don't really even vaguely belong under any umbrella.  I tend to look for lineage.


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## mograph

Lotus said:


> I saw some people doing a demonstration of this Taoist Tai Chi at a local event, and they were all pretty bad at it, or else, if they are thought to be good at it, it bore little resemblance to any skilled tai chi that I've ever seen (and I've travelled in China, to some of the centres of the art).


Back in the seventies, the founder of the TTCS learned a few things and combined them to create this exercise. At some point, he may have intended to bring students (those who completed beginner training) back to Tai Chi principles, but he never did that, for whatever reason. He died in '98, if I recall. So, in my opinion, the set is frozen at the beginner stick-set level, but those who studied it for a long time attempted to add more stretch (or something) in order to advance beyond the stick-set. Most instructors are promoted way too early, some right out of beginner level (3-4 months).

It should not be compared to taijiquan. At its best, it's basically all-yin community center "tai chi", but with delusions of grandeur, especially at the higher admin levels.

(... but it should be said, that most of the grass-roots members are quite nice folks.)


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## Dee Based

New member here. Realize this is an old thread. Was considering classes at the Taoist Tai Chi Society. After reading through this thread I looked up Master Moy doing the "Taoist Tai Chi" form on YouTube.   




IMHO, it's clear he doesn't understand or practice some basic concepts of Tai Chi, like rooting and balance. He's also not using the bodies' momentum to power the motion during Withdraw & Push, but using the arms instead (incorrectly). Concepts like Sinking into the Kua (Lower Dan Tian) are fundamental to Tai Chi, for more reasons than just the combat applications.


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