# Training for competition vs. the street



## Flea (Dec 12, 2009)

I had another thought provoking moment this morning in practice.  I've often had partners go too easy on me until I explained that I'm training for my rough neighborhood.  This morning I had an interesting incident that drove it all home for me.

I was doing groundwork with someone (_yes!_ I did _groundwork!_:whip1 and someone had me in a position I couldn't do much about.  But I had enough wiggle room to grab his cuff, bring it close, and give his Achilles tendon a love-nip.  It surprised him and he let go.  "Hm," he said thoughtfully, "That would definitely lose you some points."  He doesn't come very often and from out of state, so I gave him my spiel about training for survival.  Since I'm small and cute (in other words a more attractive target,) I'll take any advantage I can.   He bit back me a few minutes later, the sneaky bastard.

It's a no-brainer that one's goals will inform one's approach to training, but this morning's conversation really brought that home.  I'm going to watch my classmates more closely to see their different approaches, although I think the main goal for most of them is having fun.  Better still, as I go through my highly complex Big Life Transition I'll apply today's lesson to its many steps, steps within steps, steps upon steps, occasional backtracking and direction changes ...


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 13, 2009)

This is a really weird coincidence, Flea. I grappled for the first time Friday night, and I ended up biting too. However, there was no foolishness about "losing points". We do whatever works.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 13, 2009)

My bite was significantly more assertive than a "love-nip", too.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 13, 2009)

Very good experience, I would say. I've often spoken here (and elsewhere) about just this sort of difference, and hwo what you train (with the mindset you train with) is what will come out. Flea, you train with the mindset of "Well, this had better work for me, because I'm in a rough place, I'm a relatively easy target, I'm likely to be far smaller and less powerful than an attacker, so doing something to win a trophy just doesn't cut it". I'm very similar myself. Within our schools, such tactics are refered to as "survival tactics", and they are practiced often.

Jenny, well, "significantly more... than a love-nip"? Ha, I would love to have seen the look on the other guys face then!


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## Tez3 (Dec 13, 2009)

We grapple for MMA so definitely no biting while training in the club but it's always at the forefront of your mind that if you were doing it for real  in an attack that there's a lot of things you can do. When reffing I have to watch out for fingers in eyes which aren't allowed but again is very easy to do in other circumstances. If you have a look at the rules for MMA, see what is illegal and you'll see all the techniques ideal for SD purposes, ie small joint manipulation, punching to back of head, kidneys, liver etc. There is a rule that no fingers are to be put in any orifice lol but again while not very savoury they are again good self defence techniques. Elbows in the face are allowed in pro rules and are a very good move for SD too as it's easier than trying to punch from the floor. Nipping and biting are good as is hair pulling even of eyebrows and sideburns!


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## Flea (Dec 13, 2009)

Thanks Tez.  I was paired up with this guy for a good while and gave him quite a run for his money.  I totally pinned him for several minutes even though he has at least 40 pounds on me.  Just a series of elbows to the side of the face so he couldn't turn his head, and I lay on him like a deadweight.  At one point everyone just stopped and stared at us.  _Flea?_... _Flea_ is pinning this guy?  _Flea_ is being this fierce?  No one could believe it.  I also got out of a pin with a mock-rack.  I'm not sure, but I think I distributed a couple zerberts too.  (And yes, laughter is a valid weapon too.  Just ask Ernest Scribbler.)

%-}

I _knew_ it was lurking within me somewhere.  It just took a while to dig it out.  Hopefully it's here to stay.


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## Ken Morgan (Dec 13, 2009)

I don't know.....it all sounds like foreplay to me.....


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 13, 2009)

Flea said:


> I also got out of a pin with a mock-rack.


 
That is my favorite target.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 13, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> I don't know.....it all sounds like foreplay to me.....


 
It does feel really strange the first time someone mounts you. I had to totally disengage that part of my mind, which wasn't difficult. It just felt surreal.

I learned how to do an arm bar, a Kimura, a guillotine, and a figure 4. It was lots of fun!


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## still learning (Dec 13, 2009)

Hello,  Real world...NO rules...one must do "whatever" it takes to suvive!

competitions...will train you to behave with rules...and someone taps out on the streets...may come back to kill you..!

Happen to a Train Jujutsu expert..after his tournament...walking to his car in LV...attack by two men..he kick one guy and second was in a lock...tap out..the Jujustu expert...let go the lock only to get stab and Killed by the the other guy..!

Train for real...or you may make a mistake...Lessons do not always go second time...?

Aloha,


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## Stuey (Dec 13, 2009)

Perhaps it almost seems too obvious, but it is a serious point. If we are in competition situations it is worth making the concious effort to associate separately this part of the art and surviving. If you like competing and living then maybe we should induce 2 separate states of mind when training. 1 being win, the other being live.


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## MJS (Dec 13, 2009)

Flea said:


> I had another thought provoking moment this morning in practice. I've often had partners go too easy on me until I explained that I'm training for my rough neighborhood. This morning I had an interesting incident that drove it all home for me.
> 
> I was doing groundwork with someone (_yes!_ I did _groundwork!_:whip1 and someone had me in a position I couldn't do much about. But I had enough wiggle room to grab his cuff, bring it close, and give his Achilles tendon a love-nip. It surprised him and he let go. "Hm," he said thoughtfully, "That would definitely lose you some points." He doesn't come very often and from out of state, so I gave him my spiel about training for survival. Since I'm small and cute (in other words a more attractive target,) I'll take any advantage I can. He bit back me a few minutes later, the sneaky bastard.
> 
> It's a no-brainer that one's goals will inform one's approach to training, but this morning's conversation really brought that home. I'm going to watch my classmates more closely to see their different approaches, although I think the main goal for most of them is having fun. Better still, as I go through my highly complex Big Life Transition I'll apply today's lesson to its many steps, steps within steps, steps upon steps, occasional backtracking and direction changes ...


 
Nothing wrong with competing, but for myself, I'm gearing my training towards the street.  Is it possible to do both?  Sure, but unless the person can seperate the 2 on the fly, then its possible the old saying, "You fight like you train" will come into play.  

Now, do I do the 'dirty' tricks every time I roll?  No.  As I said, I dont gear my training for comp. so IMO, even if I didn't always add those little things in, I dont believe it would hinder me in any way, should I find myself in a position in which I need to defend myself.  

Nice thread.


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## Flea (Dec 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> Nothing wrong with competing, but for myself, I'm gearing my training towards the street.



Rarin!

For me, I have a heavy bias based on experience.  I don't have a competitive bone in my body (is that a smart metaphor in this context?) but I've had icky experiences that may have turned out differently with some training.  I guess I've been a little myopic about it; until yesterday, competition just seemed a little ... quaint.  :uhyeah:  From my perspective it still does, but I can see why people would enjoy it.



> Nice thread.



You're welcome!  Glad you enjoy it.


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## jarrod (Dec 13, 2009)

way too much gets made about the line between sport & street.  it is, as usual, all in how you train.  if you compete & like to play for points, milk the clock, rely on sport-specific techniques & not fundamentals of the art, then yeah, it's not going to help much in self defense.  but if you train to finish fights with solid, core skills & develop a never-give-up attitude that you have to have to excel at combat sports, then those skills & attributes will definitely help you.  

jf


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 13, 2009)

Flea,

Since I don't compete anymore (except at shooting and all the lead goes one way!!) then I can say I train for the street.

But, as long as you keep realistic with your competition training it will do no harm to your street skills. Might even make them better cause you train more. It's funny how a piece of plastic and brass can get people to train more in a month than otherwise they would do all year. All cause they want that trophy bad.

See we've had this competition .vs. street argument about shooting to at other boards. But some the best well know 'gun fighters', like Jim Cirillo, Bill Jordan, Charlie Askins, even Bryce, all shot competition. And most of the bull&#8217;s-eye and PPC style. And it didn't hurt their street skills. In fact it may very well have helped them.

For you see even a supposedly purely competition technique can be used on the street. Why? Cause on the street there are no rules!

And an interesting note, Jim Cirillo, who was in the NYPD stakeout squad and dozens of gunfights, wrote a list of virtues for those wishing to be in a high risk squad. One of the top ones on the list was being a competitor. 

Deaf


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## Brian King (Dec 13, 2009)

Flea,
WOW, wasnt that long ago when grappling for even a couple of minutes was a traumatic event but you persevered, kept getting up from your defeats dusting yourself off and took victories as they came and kicked butt! A little victory here and a little victory there and now look at you, a hero and inspiration for all that are fighting their continuing battles at becoming whole, becoming what they are meant to become. You have been posting here at MT (and training Systema) for a little over a year, and have made huge progressso far. The progress will continue as long as you do! Learn to completely enjoy the defeats as well as victories and keep up the work Flea! Happy belated anniversary LOL

Regards
Brian King


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## Steve (Dec 13, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> We grapple for MMA so definitely no biting while training in the club but it's always at the forefront of your mind that if you were doing it for real  in an attack that there's a lot of things you can do. When reffing I have to watch out for fingers in eyes which aren't allowed but again is very easy to do in other circumstances. If you have a look at the rules for MMA, see what is illegal and you'll see all the techniques ideal for SD purposes, ie small joint manipulation, punching to back of head, kidneys, liver etc. There is a rule that no fingers are to be put in any orifice lol but again while not very savoury they are again good self defence techniques. Elbows in the face are allowed in pro rules and are a very good move for SD too as it's easier than trying to punch from the floor. Nipping and biting are good as is hair pulling even of eyebrows and sideburns!


It's funny, but if you think about self defense, I'm not sure that biting or elbows to the face are all that good.  Think about the UFC and the elbows... honestly, I'd advocate that they be banned from the UFC precisely because they often result in a premature stoppage.  You see guys who are "fine".  They're ready to go except that they got cut and the doctor stops the fight.  The cut isn't dangerous, nor is it affecting the fighter and "on the street" he'd likely continue fighting without a second thought.  While it's possible, elbows on the  ground aren't any more likely to end a fight than a punch, even if they have a strong chance of opening a cut.

Biting is another one.  Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.  

The above aren't written as questions, but to be clear, I don't train for self defense, per se, so I'm really throwing these out for discussion.  What do you guys think?


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## Flea (Dec 13, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Biting is another one.  Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.



There is also the question of blood-borne diseases like hepatits and HIV.  So biting is not a move to be done lightly, and preferably done through clothes whenever possible.


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## Omar B (Dec 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> way too much gets made about the line between sport & street.  it is, as usual, all in how you train.  if you compete & like to play for points, milk the clock, rely on sport-specific techniques & not fundamentals of the art, then yeah, it's not going to help much in self defense.  but if you train to finish fights with solid, core skills & develop a never-give-up attitude that you have to have to excel at combat sports, then those skills & attributes will definitely help you.
> 
> jf



Not at all related to the topic but love the new avatar Jarrod!  Is that Argentina?  Looks like it to me.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> It's funny, but if you think about self defense, I'm not sure that biting or elbows to the face are all that good. Think about the UFC and the elbows... honestly, I'd advocate that they be banned from the UFC precisely because they often result in a premature stoppage. You see guys who are "fine". They're ready to go except that they got cut and the doctor stops the fight. The cut isn't dangerous, nor is it affecting the fighter and "on the street" he'd likely continue fighting without a second thought. While it's possible, elbows on the ground aren't any more likely to end a fight than a punch, even if they have a strong chance of opening a cut.
> 
> Biting is another one. Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.
> 
> The above aren't written as questions, but to be clear, I don't train for self defense, per se, so I'm really throwing these out for discussion. What do you guys think?


 
I think of things from a womans perpective, if I'm stuck underneath my putting elbows up and grinding them in an eye or even mouth helps. As a woman there are few single strikes that will ever stop a fight against a man so it has to be a collection of everything and anything, the important thing to me is to keep fighting, moving and hoping to get a chance to break away and get the hell out of there. I don't imagine I'm ever going to win a fight against a 16st man for example but what I'm aiming to do is cause damage and get out alive then......then come back with others and fill him in lol!
Biting leaves marks that can be matched to help catch the attacker so is worth doing even if it doesn't cause much damage, you just need to leave your teeth marks.

The problem with the UFC is thats it's not the worlds best promotion, the stopping of guys with cuts is usually a wrong decision by the ref or the management We've found that elbows rarely cause the cuts, the edges of the gloves do, Fairtex especially along with a couple of other brands. A good cutman can stop it enough for the fighter to carry on, the UFC makes decisions that wouldn't be made elsewhere.


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## jarrod (Dec 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> It's funny, but if you think about self defense, I'm not sure that biting or elbows to the face are all that good.  Think about the UFC and the elbows... honestly, I'd advocate that they be banned from the UFC precisely because they often result in a premature stoppage.  You see guys who are "fine".  They're ready to go except that they got cut and the doctor stops the fight.  The cut isn't dangerous, nor is it affecting the fighter and "on the street" he'd likely continue fighting without a second thought.  While it's possible, elbows on the  ground aren't any more likely to end a fight than a punch, even if they have a strong chance of opening a cut.
> 
> Biting is another one.  Unless you can take a finger or something equally damaging you're likely escalating the situation with the distinct possibility that you aren't improving your situation at all.
> 
> The above aren't written as questions, but to be clear, I don't train for self defense, per se, so I'm really throwing these out for discussion.  What do you guys think?



i don't know that all elbow stoppages are premature....it's hard to fight when there's too much blood in your eyes to see.  yes, the guy could physically continue, but the odds of him winning are slim.  attackers aren't fighting for fame or a paycheck, they are typically looking for an easy target (if we're talking about true SD here & not a bar fight or something).  not every SD tech has to incapacitate, being a difficult target is often enough.  some people just get plain discouraged when they get a couple thumps & see a puddle of their own blood.  

i agree with you about biting though, it is a last-ditch effort in my play book.  all "dirty fighting" tactics (which i am a big fan of) should be secondary to core fighting/competition skills, imo.  eye gouges, biting, pinching, all that stuff can help you, but you can't count on it to win the day.    



Omar B said:


> Not at all related to the topic but love the new avatar Jarrod!  Is that Argentina?  Looks like it to me.



thanks man!  that pic is from gray's peak right here in colorado.  would love to hike south america sometime, i've heard nothing but good things.  

jf


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think of things from a womans perpective, if I'm stuck underneath my putting elbows up and grinding them in an eye or even mouth helps. As a woman there are few single strikes that will ever stop a fight against a man so it has to be a collection of everything and anything, the important thing to me is to keep fighting, moving and hoping to get a chance to break away and get the hell out of there. I don't imagine I'm ever going to win a fight against a 16st man for example but what I'm aiming to do is cause damage and get out alive then......then come back with others and fill him in lol!
> Biting leaves marks that can be matched to help catch the attacker so is worth doing even if it doesn't cause much damage, you just need to leave your teeth marks.


This makes sense.  I hadn't looked at the possibility of causing damage for later identification.  That's brilliant. 


> The problem with the UFC is thats it's not the worlds best promotion,


Oh, stop it.  They are the best, although the winds of change are swirling.  As Strikeforce signs more top fighters (like Dan Henderson) there may finally be viable competition for the UFC, which would be good for MMA world wide.  

But right now, they are hands down the best at this point and time.  This isn't to say that there aren't very good fighters in other organizations.  It's simply saying that the stable of fighters in the UFC/WEC organization is as a collective at a clearly higher level with deeper divisions than any other in the world.  I just don't see how anyone could even try to argue otherwise.  But, maybe that's a topic for another day. 





> the stopping of guys with cuts is usually a wrong decision by the ref or the management We've found that elbows rarely cause the cuts, the edges of the gloves do, Fairtex especially along with a couple of other brands. A good cutman can stop it enough for the fighter to carry on, the UFC makes decisions that wouldn't be made elsewhere.


I've seen more nasty, deep cuts opened by an errant elbow than in any other way combined.  And if they're above the eye impeding the fighter's vision, the doctors tend to stop it.  That's not just in the UFC, either.   

Now, things may be different in the UK, but in the States, the only exception to this would be maybe an unsanctioned, seedy event.  Anything above board would end in a doctor's stoppage if the cut is bleeding into the fighter's eye.  The fighter has to get to the end of the round before the cutman can do anything, and usually, even if that does happen, the cut gets reopened, usually worse than before, and the fight gets stopped. 

All of that being said, I've never seen a fight ended from an elbow OTHER than from a cut.  Elbows just don't end fights often, if at all.  I've seen more fights end from a spinning backfist (two) than from any kind of knockout from an elbow strike (other than tko due to a cut). 

In a self defense situation, I just wouldn't rely on an elbow.  The only real legit consideration is as Jarrod says, which is more mental than physical.  Basically, demoralizing your attacker by making him bleed.

This is all simply my opinion.


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i don't know that all elbow stoppages are premature....it's hard to fight when there's too much blood in your eyes to see.


By premature, I really simply mean that the fighter could fight.  And I would disagree about the fighter's chances.  I can think of fights where this is true... the fighter is getting his *** handed to him and the cut is only the coup de grace.  Other times, though, the exact opposite is true.  The fighter who gets cut is game and in fact winning the fight hands down until what amounts to an errant elbow ends the fight.


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## jarrod (Dec 14, 2009)

never seen elbows end a fight?

well, i'm digging all the way back to ufc 2 here, but here goes...


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> never seen elbows end a fight?
> 
> well, i'm digging all the way back to ufc 2 here, but here goes...


LOL... okay.  You got me.  But the spinning backfist is still the more reliable technique.


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## jarrod (Dec 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> By premature, I really simply mean that the fighter could fight.  And I would disagree about the fighter's chances.  I can think of fights where this is true... the fighter is getting his *** handed to him and the cut is only the coup de grace.  Other times, though, the exact opposite is true.  The fighter who gets cut is game and in fact winning the fight hands down until what amounts to an errant elbow ends the fight.



i know what you mean, but if you're bleeding so bad you can't see, you're probably going to lose no matter how bad you were kicking the guy's *** before.  don't get me wrong, i don't "like" when a fight gets stopped on cuts due to a couple elbows.  but i'm one of the guys who is still mad they took out head butts & soccer kicks.  i hate to see it prohibited just because it is an effective technique.  besides, usually when effective techs are removed, it adversely effects the rest of the game.  

jf


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## Steve (Dec 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i know what you mean, but if you're bleeding so bad you can't see, you're probably going to lose no matter how bad you were kicking the guy's *** before. don't get me wrong, i don't "like" when a fight gets stopped on cuts due to a couple elbows. but i'm one of the guys who is still mad they took out head butts & soccer kicks. i hate to see it prohibited just because it is an effective technique. besides, usually when effective techs are removed, it adversely effects the rest of the game.
> 
> jf


I'm with you!  If I had my druthers, I'd ban elbows and headbutts but unban soccer kicks, all for the reasons we've discussed.  Soccer kicks are effective fight enders.  Anyone who's seen Shogun Rua or Wanderlei in Pride knows that!


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## punisher73 (Dec 14, 2009)

Just to throw this out there....

There are many people out there who freak at the sight of their own blood.  If you open up a big cut, it can give you a psychological advantage.

Not saying this happens across the board, but I have seen many "tough guys" freak when the blood flowed.


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## frank raud (Dec 14, 2009)

Flea, now that we have the UFC discussion out of the way,is there any competition in Systema? Any touraments?


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## Flea (Dec 14, 2009)

frank raud said:


> Flea, now that we have the UFC discussion out of the way,is there any competition in Systema? Any touraments?



Ironically, I probably wouldn't be the one to ask about that.  I'm a total novice to MA in general, and I've only been at Systema for one year.  There are other Systema practitioners on MT who are much more accomplished than I, and I'll defer to them.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Dec 15, 2009)

I have heard about people taping in the street and being let go only to come back for more.

 Here is one way to combat that potential.

In our Dojo, we have single tap, double tap and rapid tapping and yelling "Abort!"

1 tap means "You have me, but you can work the technique or transition to another." 2 taps means " You have me, I am about to be hurt, no more pressure." and then Nage S-L-O-W-L-Y lets Uke out of whatever he is in and finally rapid tapping (Going John Bonham as I call it) and yelling 'Abort!" means you are going to mess me up let go now!"

This way if someone outside does tap, you don't immeidiatly let the guy go.

 We always make clear that submissons are largly for the Dojo and for Compititions, in the street you generally snap through the joint and if a man does submit to you, keep him in blinding pain and let him know that A- You own his life, he only lives because you will it. B- He makes any hostile moves and you will end him  C- ***If no one is around and it was a particularly nasty attack*** Break a couple fingers or his thumb anyways and give him a swift kick as you back away, deploy a weapon and tell him "You get up and you will die."

 The last time I had to get physical was at a concert and a guy took a swing at me. I entered him. pinned his foot with mine and put him in a front choke, with my head pushing his sideways and back and then I droped down a little more than a foot so he could feel his neck about to crunch. I said "We don't really want to do this? Do we!?" I let up enough to let him answer "No Dude." I slowly let him stand up, slowly let of the choke/crank, put a hand on his left shoulder and grabbed his right hand , gave him a shake and stepped back.

 The hand on the shoulder and the handshake were a set up if he even seemed like he was about to reengage me.


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## jarrod (Dec 15, 2009)

another vote for competition; all good competitors know not to let go until the ref peels you off! 

good idea though, good way to keep from developing a reflex to let go.  i remember my very first judo match i caught my opponent in an armbar, he tapped, & i let go.  the ref didn't see any of it!  fortunately i had an honest opponent & he told the ref that he tapped.  after that i decided to make sure i had the victory in hand before letting go.

jf


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## Tez3 (Dec 15, 2009)

Rules here mean that if there's a cut the ref can stop the fight to have it attended to,the doc can look at it and if ok after being fixed the fight can continue.
In any fight whether competition or for real when your opponent/attacker taps you don't let go until either the ref tells you ( in comp) or your attacker is unable to carry on fighting ie you broke his arm etc.


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## Draven (Dec 16, 2009)

Well first off Flea, good job...

Now here is the thing yes competition can and does both help in hinder you psychologically and technically in self-defense. Technically because you have a resisting opponent you can train with & psycholoically because when under stree of confused you revert to training (which has an effect thats gets tapped into on a mental level). Reverting to competition mindset can get you killed under the wrong conditions and have zero effect in others. Under social violence it can have a pretty good effect so...

Criminal activety; mugging, rape, assault, robbery etc. is essentually a matter of Ability to Act against you, Opportunity to act against you & risk/reward associated with attacking you. As a smaller guy myself, I have pretty rough in the size = intimidation issue. Course I've won my nicknames of Mighty Mouse & Wolverine (after the animal not the X-man) because of my attitude. 

PS- Watch the love nips you might give someone the wrong impression.


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## repz (Jan 25, 2010)

I always seen it like this...

Martial Arts is in the name, an expression of war.

Martial arts uses various training principles to test certain techniques. Sparring being one of them (call it kumite, rolling, mma, etc.), sparring builds live response to random effects brought by a fully uncompliant opponent who is also responding live to your attempts to defeat him. Sparring, or more specifically boxing, kickboxing, mma, etc., is promoted for commercial reason to make profit.

Everything else after this is oppinion (well, that is if you agree up to this point).

But, I think if you see sparring as a benefit and supplement as training (and even more serious to reach higher levels of experience) as opposed to just being the whole sole basis of your art, then I think you would build on not only the attributes that sparring can build, but also work on self defense techniques that sports wont allow you to perform and on philsophies and concepts that sports dont follow in a one on one  ring enviornment (like dealing with obstruction, dealing with more then one opponent, enviornment, weapons being used, etc.). Basically, I would prefer to patch up as many holes as possible by embracing both "worlds".

Also, using sports gear and rules to regulate human contact can do wonders for knife attacks and multiple opponent sparring to blend both to grow those attributes into other fields too.


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## ap Oweyn (Jan 26, 2010)

still learning said:


> Hello, Real world...NO rules...one must do "whatever" it takes to suvive!
> 
> competitions...will train you to behave with rules...and someone taps out on the streets...may come back to kill you..!


 
As opposed to what?  If you knock someone out, or kick them in the cash and prizes, or poke their eye, they could still come back.  I think this is a distinction without a difference.  If you stop short of killing someone, there's the chance they could come back.  And if you kill them, that only opens the door to a whole host of other problems.  Arrest, retribution from friends, whatever.

It's very easy to say that competition doesn't prepare you aptly because it has rules.  But it's a bit of a cop out.  

Besides, the idea that your training is so ingrained that you won't be able to make necessary adaptations (stories about people returning a disarmed knife to a real attacker because they're used to that from training, etc.) don't sound credible to me.  Nor does letting go because someone tapped in a real fight.  Taps work because the guy with the advantage _lets it work_.  If the guy with the advantage wanted to choke the guy unconcious, dislocate a limb, or worse, there's nothing preventing that.

I think we have to be really careful about characterizing one group of practitioners as brilliant tacticians and the other as automatons programmed by operant conditioning. 


Stuart


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## tempus (Jan 26, 2010)

I think both schools of training allow someone to defend themself.  However, I do think if you train in one fashion or mindset with some techniques, when the time comes you will instinctively do what you have trained to do becasue that is what you know.  This to me is based off the average person who trains a few hours a week.  The mind set of a fighter, soldier, competition fighter who trains 8 hours+ a day, probably can react and think in an altercation.

For example I know someone who trained for years with no contact sparring.  When he went to a contact sparring session he had problems hitting the person.  He always ended about an inch from the person.

At 40 years old I have never been in a fight, fought a war or a serious physical confrontation (pushing, shoving, talking the talk does not count).  From other life experiences I know I will shut down and focus only the situation and react from instinct.  Hence when doing knife defenses I never hand the knife to anyone.  I defend, take knife \ stick, look around, relax and throw it to the side for the next Uke to pick up and attack.  That way I will not hand it to a stranger, or possible the attackers friend.

Just my random thoughts,

Gary


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## repz (Jan 26, 2010)

Everything is an assumption, no one can really predicate human behavior exactly, not even in science. Some people can completely shut down, and lose all technique, regardless of their training. 

If I ever opened a school, I will try to avoid assumption, and just patch up any possibilities as possible. But, technique and training isnt the only factor for self defense, and in many schools this isnt addressed.


But, there is a reason why the military jumps on you literally, stressing you out and pushing you to the extreme hoping your crack,, because thats war. But I dont think Mom and Dad, or Avergae Joe wants to pay for serious training.


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## myusername (Jan 26, 2010)

Interesting thread, I've enjoyed reading peoples responses.

Personally I can say that I train for both "the street" and competition. In my Tae kwon-do we do spend a lot of time free sparring (which under TAGB rules is semi-contact all kicks above the waist.) I know that when I am free sparring I am not practicing self defence and that I am practicing for points, tournements and (hopefully) medals. There is no way that in a self defence situation I would employ a high hooking kick swiftly followed by a turning kick along the same line with the same leg before putting it down on the floor! I am not an idiot. I don't subscribe to the idea that because I do train free sparring regularly that under pressure I will respond as if I am free sparring with flicky, flicky point kicks. I know the difference and I am in a different mind set when I train for competiton.

My TKD instructor also includes a lot of self defence techniques (such as power slaps, low level kicks and take downs) in our classes. He is very good at highlighting what is for self defence and what isn't before we practice anything. This allows me the opportunity to shift my mind set into "this is for self defence" before learning it. Mind you I think I know the difference by now!

In my Jujutsu, we work our strikes from the fence. For example last night each training partner had a focus mitt in their lead hand and we went in turn with the attacker puffing their chests out and verbally abusing the defender. The defender will attempt to de-esculate from the fence position whilst the attacker shows his focus pad at head height as a target. The defender then asks a distracting question (such as "Do you know Phil?) and throws four heavy handed palm heel strikes to the focus pad. That is for self defence and I am confident that in a self defence situation I would fall back on such a technique rather than go for the hooking kick option!

I suppose what I am trying to say with this post is that most martial arts consists of a variety techniques that range from realistic to fanciful. Lots of martial arts have a competition element and as long as the student knows which is for real and which is for fun and trains with the appropriate mind set for each then it should not impact on their ability to defend themselves.

You can train for both in the same class.


PS: I would like to say well done to Flea! I lurk a bit on this forum every now and again and remember reading a fair few posts where you were talking of struggling with grappling. Good on you for conquering your fears.


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## Flea (Jan 26, 2010)

:asian:


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jan 27, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Flea,
> 
> Since I don't compete anymore (except at shooting and all the lead goes one way!!) then I can say I train for the street.
> 
> ...


 
 I used to work at a range and the guys who were my mentors allway said "Don't pick up what you see from the IPSIC people. You dont walk around with a Race gun and a holster that will lose your gun if jump or step wrong.

 I would run their course with either a stock 1911, a HK P7M8 or a Browining Hi power, starting in pants carry with the extra mags in my pocket, lots of fun. I guess it depends on the rule set you use in Comps.

 I like what I have seen of some of the other groups like IDPA.

As an aside that you will get a kick from.

 My late mentor was a SOCOM type. He told of one time when he and a few other Operators (his guys and some Delta) went to a local comp.

 After a few runs, they were asked to leave as they were just so much faster and accurate than anyone there.

 Thsoe guys train all the time and 100% for combat, yet still could go in to a comp, play by rules and murder the comp.


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## edgedweapons (Jan 27, 2010)

lol i hope his feet was clean. 

i dont mind biting but, i prefer to eye gouge, hittomg the groin, and attack the throat before i make that my option when it comes to grappling.


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## Nolerama (Jan 27, 2010)

I think technique and athleticism are great for learning to be functional at a MA.

I think you can get both at a competitive gym. Give me technique. Give me athleticism. Give me the right mindset to overcome adrenaline and enter an altercation with a problem-solving mindset, instead of a fear-based one.

Lots of SD-minded folks go over a ton of paranoid scenarios. They give you reasons (more like excuses) to not do something and want you to react suddenly, like a robot.

They train in a state of paranoia. They'll react in public in a state of paranoia, probably attracting assailants.

Oh yeah. It's Position before Submission (in any range, art, etc.) If your first option is to bite/eye gouge/etc, are you really in a good position to be fighting? Probably not.

Vote goes to competition, where I would be training with/against people that have a level of skill over the average joe on the street.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 29, 2010)

ap Oweyn said:


> As opposed to what?  If you knock someone out, or kick them in the cash and prizes, or poke their eye, they could still come back.  I think this is a distinction without a difference.  If you stop short of killing someone, there's the chance they could come back.  And if you kill them, that only opens the door to a whole host of other problems.  Arrest, retribution from friends, whatever.
> 
> It's very easy to say that competition doesn't prepare you aptly because it has rules.  But it's a bit of a cop out.
> 
> ...


 Good points!

If you want to learn to drive a car, class room material is good, but you'll never really learn to put that practice to the test until you get behind the wheel.  One cannot learn to ride a bicycle without getting on one, no matter how much practice they do.

The reality is that only in Martial Arts, do a large number of people have the census that practicing prepares one more for an activity than actually doing.  If one wants to truly learn to fight, one needs to fight.

The naysayers claim that the fighting done isn't entirely realistic........but the truth is that it's almost always far more realistic than any fighting those naysayers themselves are doing.  Realistic combat sports are the best unarmed physical combat simulator available to determine what works, sort of going to the bar every night and starting a fight.

What I really suspect many people's problems with combat sports are the fact that in their own martial styles they believe they can train to do something ABOUT violence, without actually having to be violent......and combat sports deflate a lot of that theory.


The reality is that the real difference between the ring and the street isn't in the techniques, or mostly even in the training (though one should train slightly different if one is solely concerned with the street, as training for sport rules is a waste of time and energy unless you are going to compete).  The real difference between the ring and the street is the mindset.  But the notion that one cannot function on the street if one trains for the ring is SILLY!

As i've mentioned before, it's like thinking Mario Andretti can't drive his family car, because he's trained so much in a race car.........it's not only silly, it's *** backwards, and the reality is that Mario Andretti likely has more skill driving that family car as a result of his racing experience than the average human being, or even the average police officer.  That's why it's race car driver's that train those seeking high speed counter-terrorism driver training.........because they know how to operate a car at high speeds.  One doesn't argue that because they usually operate under rules and on a track, that they know nothing about operating a car on a different shaped asphault surface.


My 2 cents, so take it for what it's worth.


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## repz (Jan 29, 2010)

Self defense vs Sport, seems this post went down that road.

If a self defense artists using the same training method as sports arts (which is sparring, which gives liveness, randomness, and reisistance) and applies that to knife disarms (knife sparring) gun disarms, and multiple opponent sparring, then whatever benefit sports enthusiasts will be shared with the self defense artists. I dont know why people use that to make a point, I been to even tma dojos that do this now. Stress, adrenaline, liveness, randomness, and resistance, all build new attributes and help you cope with new feelings and sensations. *What exactly can sports offer besides this if its already implement in knife sparring and team sparring for group fights in SD arts?* This is effectively sport, or in better terms sparring but modified slightly to give roles. SD artists gain these same attributes but applied to the street.

As tho both the attacker (knifer, or team of opponents) and defender take their sparring seriously, then this will be the ultimate training for self defense. Because they put themselves in the role, and puts them in the situation where the knife take focus, or where escaping two people is the goal, and not pidgeon-holeing themselves into a one on one encounter as their sole basis of training. Whatever attributes are put into sports are born in this type of training for SD, but the focus, and yes... mindset changes.

There are people who drill knife disarms just as seriously, just as vicious, just as numerous, in the same training manner, equal to sports practicing a mount escape. 

I dont think theres a question where the SD artist might have a difficulty fighting in one on one enviornment against someone whos trained to fight one on one, to modify his disarms and grapples to focus on the person and rules (which is an art to itself) and no longer the weapon and enviornment as they adjust to ignoring these factors, and they will probably get rocked fast to be honest, but I can safetly say that the sports fighter will have an equaly difficult time disarming or even reversing his thousands of hours of drills that has him dealing with the whole unarmed individual with no awarness to enviornment and other factors. I have seen SD artists get choked out or knocked out in seconds where I trained, and I seen Sports fighters get lacerations and neck wounds with knives in knife disarms. Because they had to instantly "switch" what they have been taught, or their schools didnt train in live patterns, or didnt create a good focus and importance in this type of training.

Sparring is the ultimate training plan, without question. If we you want to be good at one on one you have to fight that way, spar that way. That means giving up the mindset, the technique for weapons disarms (which i dont consider good submission moves they implement a form of enough pain to release the weapon, and some lead to straight dislocation then a tap out, thats just not needed for sports, and fracturing a finger or wrist under a trained grappler would probably still not warrent a victory) they are good looking moves for something that will be implemented chaotically to get the weapon away from you, once you give up what the majority of your art is, you focus on their game you can be successful. But you have to realize what you are giving up.


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## Draven (Feb 17, 2010)

Nolerama said:


> I think technique and athleticism are great for learning to be functional at a MA.
> 
> I think you can get both at a competitive gym. Give me technique. Give me athleticism. Give me the right mindset to overcome adrenaline and enter an altercation with a problem-solving mindset, instead of a fear-based one.
> 
> ...


 
Well let me ask you something, do you have a spare tire in your car? How about a blanket? Water? Maybe even some food? Lets make is simpler do you have a gas can? Does the gas can have gas in it?

Now my car had a case of MREs, a Case of water in bottles, extra blankets and yes my spare tire. Is all that there because I'm paranoid, god no. Its there because I'm prepared for something bad happening to me, I keep it there with a sense of being able to survive comfortably. Guess what when I went fishing with a few buddies of mine & we all got drunk and started racing along back country roads. Guess what, about 4am it got real cold beside the river and I had blankets. After the beer and McDonalds was gone I had MREs and cold water in my trunk. No I'm not paranoid I'm contious of the fact that bad things happen and those unprepared for the happening are the one's who suffer the hardest.

I teach MA with SD in mind, that means I'm looking at techniques but application of techniques under specific conditions (resisting opponents, ), you can't overcome addrinoline with a mindset you overcome it by being desentized to effects of it & I'm not sure what you by entering a situation as if you solving a problem and not a fear-based one. The human mind has logical contious thought patterns and emotions, & one effects the other. So I'm not sure what you mean...

As for scenario based training I find very few who do it who do so as paranoid fear mongering people in their mindset. I use scenario based drills to teach people the tactics used by muggers, rapists & gang members etc. Why because thats what you'll find in the real world. The military uses scenario based trained almost daily to desentise the soldiers & marines to experience of hearing gun fire, seeing things blow up or catch fire & so on. In order to overcome emotional stimulation you have to be exposed to said conditions of emotional stress to become desentized to it.

Now there are plenty of people whom seem to be obsessed with fear & use it as a marketting tool. Be afraid but come to me for salvation and I'll end your fear, but I only make you more afraid to get more business. Like a certain someone I'll not mention who lives in fear that homeless people are coming to steal his middle class life style lol...

Also bear in mind the average Joe isn't the average street punk and the average street punk is the dregs of the urban food chain.


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## Steve Grody (Apr 2, 2010)

Flea; If self-defense is your goal, then always be looking for those quick ending targets and tactics (going for the eyes, throat, groin, finger breaks etc.) even when doing rule-oriented drills such as the groundwork you were talking about. While rolling, just note where you would be able to thumb an eye, grab that finger or elbow that throat. 
stevegrody.com


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