# Police and autism - Dennis Debbaudt trains LEOs



## shesulsa (Mar 24, 2008)

> Autism rates have skyrocketed in recent years to 1 in 150, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Eighty-five percent of people with autism are younger than 18, according to the National Autism Association. As a result, Rodriguez said: "Mass numbers of autistic children are hitting puberty and prepuberty without typical social skills. They can say or do inappropriate things."
> 
> And that can lead to misunderstandings and even tragedy. In September, Taylor Karras, a 15-year-old autistic teen from Tustin, left a social services center in Westminster and was reported missing by his parents. Ten hours later he was near his home when police got reports of a suspicious person near a bus stop. Unable to understand their commands, Karras fled when approached by Orange County sheriff's deputies and was shot twice with a Taser gun. He wasn't seriously injured, but the incident showed the tension and risk that can arise in an encounter between an autistic person and a law enforcement officer.


Full article

I'm curious how many of our LEOs on the board have received any specialized training outside of the academy in dealings with developmentally delayed adults? Has anyone else here heard of Debbaudt? attending his training?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 24, 2008)

I have not attended any of his training, but I can say that this is one of the reasons why I teach non-lethal, non-injurious, ways of subduing people in my class.  My favorite techniques are the judo hold downs.  If a student knows these well enough, they can wear an opponent down and end a fight without ever throwing a punch or even hurting the other person.  Its just a matter of leverage.


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## terryl965 (Mar 24, 2008)

I guess this is something that needs to be address withen every department.


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## IcemanSK (Mar 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> I guess this is something that needs to be address withen every department.


 
I certainly hope it will be. Information about autism is being made more available than ever, now. Like deafness, it's a disability that could give LEO's fits when not recognized.

I don't envy LEO's in this task.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 25, 2008)

While training is necessary, many of these situations are over blown and distorted versions of what actually occurred......much like the deaf man shot by police after wielding a wooden hard rake and swinging it at officers.....the issue wasn't him being deaf, unless deaf also means 'stupid' which it obviously does not....as even if you can't HEAR an officers directions, common sense would dictate that it's generally not a good idea to try and hit them with large wooden sticks with metal pointy things on the end.....and even MORE so when they are pointing guns at you....which is universal sign language for 'you are SCREWING UP!'.

As for Autism and many other disorders that cause law enforcement problems, you can have training for cops all you want on what to do IF you know someone is autistic....or schizophrenic.....or under the influence of a controlled substance...etc...but considering that it takes diagnostic testing under clinical conditions by TRAINED professionals with YEARS of professional training to even diagnose many of those conditions in the FIRST place, expecting POLICE officers to make an independent diagnosis in the field under chaotic conditions in mere seconds is a FOOLS ERRAND!


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## shesulsa (Mar 25, 2008)

Mmmmm ... I don't think anyone expects any officer to make an on-the-spot diagnosis of Delayed Onset Autism with Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Apraxis and Retardation with Depression and Anxiety with mild Schizophrenia.  That's more than unrealistic.

The point of these trainings is a better response than Mr. Debbaudt experienced - perhaps a clue or two that this person really isn't on drugs.  The subtleties are there and are identifiable but it takes some knowledge to figure that out. It takes more than just awareness and education of course, but I don't know if Mr. Debbaudt teaches that.


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## Drac (Mar 25, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Full article
> 
> I'm curious how many of our LEOs on the board have received any specialized training outside of the academy in dealings with developmentally delayed adults? Has anyone else here heard of Debbaudt? attending his training?


 
No training here..That would be a good class to attend as I know little about it..


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2008)

Autism gets lumped in with all sorts of other mental disorders in our training.  We don't get a lot on any of them, most just enough guidance to hopefully help us in assessing whether we can take someone involuntarily for assessment.  

Let me make a simple point.  A beat cop is a generalist.  He (I'm using "he" generically because I hate "he or she" and other such; there are plenty of excellent female officers out there.) has to know the traffic code, the criminal code, how to handle hundreds of different situations and how to do all this on the fly, with little guidance.  He's not a social worker or therapist or mediator -- but he often finds himself in those roles.  He's not a psychologist, but he may have to assess a subject's statements with little support.  IN Virginia, we were recently mandated to get training in bias-based policing (don't do it!), Alzheimer's and other similar dementia-type disorders and responding to calls involving them, "cultural diversity" training...  That's on top of our regular in-service training.  And the simple fact is most of that falls by the wayside as soon as you exit the training.  Good cops don't do bias-based policing, and don't need to be told not to; good cops learn to deal across a variety of cultural barriers.  The folks who need lots of this training aren't going to listen or apply it.

Specifically on autism... It doesn't hurt to be aware of it, especially issues in higher functioning autistics (victimization of lower functioning autistic people is a different issue, and really falls under special offenses) -- but it's really not a major concern.


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## redfang (Mar 27, 2008)

I had an incident about two months back. It came in as a shoplifting at a gas station. When I arrived the suspect was present, trying to walk out with a handful of snacks and such. A clerk was blocking the door. He wasn't trying to fight. I ordered him over to the counter, had him put the items down, asked him if he had anything on his person that might hurt me. He replied "Yes."  He was already cuffed. I didn't locate any weapons when I frisked him. Well it didn't take me long to make an on-scene diagnosis of "he ain't all there." It turned out that the subject was an autistic adult who had managed to wander away from home. Getting any sort of info from him was next to impossible. He kept giving the same address, which when i tried to take him there I learned his family had moved out of two years prior. I eventually found some family and he was not charged, but it was an exasperating few hours.

As for training, I dimly remember a few hours of "special populations" training way back in the academy.


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## Tames D (Mar 27, 2008)

redfang said:


> I had an incident about two months back. It came in as a shoplifting at a gas station. When I arrived the suspect was present, trying to walk out with a handful of snacks and such. A clerk was blocking the door. He wasn't trying to fight. I ordered him over to the counter, had him put the items down, asked him if he had anything on his person that might hurt me. He replied "Yes." He was already cuffed. I didn't locate any weapons when I frisked him. Well it didn't take me long to make an on-scene diagnosis of "he ain't all there." It turned out that the subject was an autistic adult who had managed to wander away from home. Getting any sort of info from him was next to impossible. He kept giving the same address, which when i tried to take him there I learned his family had moved out of two years prior. I eventually found some family and he was not charged, *but it was an exasperating few hours*.
> 
> As for training, I dimly remember a few hours of "special populations" training way back in the academy.


Thanks for caring enough to make the effort you made. If my son ever finds himself in a similar situation I hope your the officer that takes the call.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2008)

redfang said:


> I had an incident about two months back. It came in as a shoplifting at a gas station. When I arrived the suspect was present, trying to walk out with a handful of snacks and such. A clerk was blocking the door. He wasn't trying to fight. I ordered him over to the counter, had him put the items down, asked him if he had anything on his person that might hurt me. He replied "Yes."  He was already cuffed. I didn't locate any weapons when I frisked him. Well it didn't take me long to make an on-scene diagnosis of "he ain't all there." It turned out that the subject was an autistic adult who had managed to wander away from home. Getting any sort of info from him was next to impossible. He kept giving the same address, which when i tried to take him there I learned his family had moved out of two years prior. I eventually found some family and he was not charged, but it was an exasperating few hours.
> 
> As for training, I dimly remember a few hours of "special populations" training way back in the academy.





QUI-GON said:


> Thanks for caring enough to make the effort you made. If my son ever finds himself in a similar situation I hope your the officer that takes the call.


Ditto that.

With the experience I've had with autistic teens and adults, if they feel confronted or in danger they may make an attempt at typical fight posturing - in this case, Redfang, he said he had something on him that could hurt you but did not - posturing.  But this is what makes your job hard - do you take him seriously or not? I *know* in my head that you can't afford to give anyone that much leeway. Fortunately for you, you cuffed him first and it sounds like he was compliant.

What I would urge all parents of autistic teens to do would be to have repeated chats with them about potential encounters with police. I tell my son - if they ever stop to talk to you or stop you to talk to them, tell the truth, do exactly what they say and never try to fight them.  I *pray* he listens.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Mmmmm ... I don't think anyone expects any officer to make an on-the-spot diagnosis of Delayed Onset Autism with Pervasive Developmental Disorder, Apraxis and Retardation with Depression and Anxiety with mild Schizophrenia. That's more than unrealistic.
> 
> The point of these trainings is a better response than Mr. Debbaudt experienced - perhaps a clue or two that this person really isn't on drugs. The subtleties are there and are identifiable but it takes some knowledge to figure that out. It takes more than just awareness and education of course, but I don't know if Mr. Debbaudt teaches that.


 And that's fair.....my only concern is that folks do not develop unrealistic expectations of what can be done and what can't.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> And that's fair.....my only concern is that folks do not develop unrealistic expectations of what can be done and what can't.


Well I think you know as well as I do that there will always be people who have unrealistic, idealistic expectations of all human beings most especially those who serve the public.  I don't need to tell you how ignorant the general public is to what policework is all about and I only hear it from officers I've known personally.

But to be completely fair from both sides ... it's my not-so-humble opinion that any loss of life in a self-defense, law enforcement or medical matter should be examined minutely, passionately, carefully. To get to best practices this has to be done.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 27, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> Well I think you know as well as I do that there will always be people who have unrealistic, idealistic expectations of all human beings most especially those who serve the public. I don't need to tell you how ignorant the general public is to what policework is all about and I only hear it from officers I've known personally.
> 
> But to be completely fair from both sides ... it's my not-so-humble opinion that any loss of life in a self-defense, law enforcement or medical matter should be examined minutely, passionately, carefully. To get to best practices this has to be done.


  Yes, but we also need to keep in mind that 'objectively reasonable' must be measured from the POV of what is reasonably knowable in a dynamic and chaotic street environment with a limited time frame......not what can be hashed out over months and years of argument and debate.

But we need to learn from our actions and our mistakes.....and the idea of training is a good one.....so long as we know that no amount of training will ever completely take away or prevent some incidents.  But i'm a HUGE believer in training......my training in Psychology has been INFINITELY useful on the street.....especially in dealing with EDP's and other people in mental and emotional crisis.


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## shesulsa (Mar 27, 2008)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Yes, but we also need to keep in mind that 'objectively reasonable' must be measured from the POV of what is reasonably knowable in a dynamic and chaotic street environment with a limited time frame......not what can be hashed out over months and years of argument and debate.
> 
> But we need to learn from our actions and our mistakes.....and the idea of training is a good one.....so long as we know that no amount of training will ever completely take away or prevent some incidents.  But i'm a HUGE believer in training......my training in Psychology has been INFINITELY useful on the street.....especially in dealing with EDP's and other people in mental and emotional crisis.


Agreed.


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