# Value in learning TSD with HRD



## lulflo (Aug 9, 2007)

Farang.

I have been studying HRD since 2000 and am at half black now. I have recently started studying with a new teacher with another set of techniques that he has been teaching me. I discovered that the techniques are TSD and it has been brought up to me to that I will be learning all of these techniques that were not in HRD training and testing for my black belt in TSD and then test for my black sash in HRD.

I am seeing a definite benefit learning TSD as a half black HRD because I can understand more of the corrections that my teacher makes in class. I think it is a great way to go through the information of all of my belts and learn them again from a different perspective. The great part for me too is that my instructor is showing me how to teach the techniques I'm learning so I can be more effective in training others. 

I am wondering how many other HRD people out there have gone through TSD as well as HRD before or after their Black Sash?

Also any comments are invited.

Farang - Larry


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## stoneheart (Aug 10, 2007)

Larry, when you say TSD do you mean Tae Soo Do, Joo Bang Lee's stripped down creation of HRD, or do you mean Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo's close cousin?


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## ancient warrior (Aug 13, 2007)

hello all, i have trained in tae soo do and hrd . there is great benefits from taking tsd first  like it will set the foundation for the future in hrd ...


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## lulflo (Aug 18, 2007)

Yes Sir,

Speaking of Tae Soo Do. I think it is a good way to focus on the basics, especially as it has happened for me, to see the material after studying HRD for 7 years.

Farang


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## shesulsa (Aug 18, 2007)

I'm wondering why anyone would have to pay extra and spend extra time focusing on the basics as another art when that should be a tenet of training? Strong basics?  Also - I thought one of Joo Bang Lee's tenets is that one must devote oneself 100% to HRD and no other style?

Could you elaborate a bit on how the TSD and HRD curriculums differ?  Are there fewer Kwon Bop, sul, etcetera?

What *exactly* would you say is the core difference between TSD and HRD?


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## mystic warrior (Aug 19, 2007)

The whole idea behind TSD Shesulsa is this:
It is for those that have never ever trained in martial arts ever in there life.
Think of it as a way of getting your feet wet if you will.
And alot of people could not handle hwa rang do either because of the training or the mental part of it.
So they came up with an easier way to understand what is in hwa rang do.
To help the masses.
And then when the students body and mind was strong, they would bring them in to hwa rang do.
And as far as doing one art. In a way you are doing one art.
Think of TSD as like high school and hwa rang do as collage


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## shesulsa (Aug 19, 2007)

mystic warrior said:


> The whole idea behind TSD Shesulsa is this:
> It is for those that have never ever trained in martial arts ever in there life.
> Think of it as a way of getting your feet wet if you will.
> And alot of people could not handle hwa rang do either because of the training or the mental part of it.
> ...



Collage? or college? 

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate if you will, because this whole scenario begs many questions, I think, that can be arrived at logically.  But I wish to be respectful to the founder and all whom have contributed to sharing the art of Hwa Rang Do.

I have to wonder what the motivation is in either creating or learning a system which I've been told is a simpler version of what attracted me in the first place?  And I still have to wonder why the basics aren't just a part of strong white and orange belt training?  I have to wonder where the flaw is if a person feels they must split an art?


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## mystic warrior (Aug 20, 2007)

Sorry my bad on the spelling. lol
But it was more just to help the student out.
And yes it is easier to learn for those that have never trainned.
And that is why it was created.


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## lulflo (Aug 20, 2007)

I was a bit confused as to why there is a watered down version of HRD at all, but then I noticed that when I started, there were many more people at my rank, but as I rise through the ranks, there are more and more people falling away from training.  Now I am sure it is probably the same in many different styles, but I think that TSD offers a way for someone to become familiar with more of the art in a shorter amount of time.  Essentially, for me anyway, I am learning TSD as an instructor (almost anyway) and am being shown how to teach new students.  There are different techniques and combinations in TSD so it keeps me from my own bad habits when teaching someone else and when I am being shown, because it is unfamiliar, my teacher can help me see where I can improve.  

Farang - Larry


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## Narsil (Aug 21, 2007)

Even though im a white testing for orange in a coupe weeks...  I have never trained in any martial art before this, and i can say as a beginner in martial arts that for most people, in a month or two the person should be competent enough that they shouldnt need to take any "elementary" art to accustom themselves with training.  And yes, it did take me awhile to get used to the memory retention.  As I learned from first hand experience in doing things i had never done before(such as forward rolls and such)  I just did them.  Regardless of how unskilled i was, i just did it, yeah at first it looked like i didnt know what i was doing, but after the 20 time I got the hang of it.  In my own opinion, after a month, anyone can handle HRD, to make HRD the "graduate" art is laughable to me at this point.


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## geocad (Aug 21, 2007)

Narsil said:


> in a month or two the person should be competent enough that they shouldnt need to take any "elementary" art to accustom themselves with training.


 
I fully agree with this statement. I too looked at another HRD dojang after years of an absence. This other school implied that my former training and rank 'should' be null and void due to who my former instructor was. The potential new school said that they would require me to advance in TSD prior to training HRD. I politely said 'okay, I'll think about it' and never returned to that dojang.



Narsil said:


> Regardless of how unskilled i was, i just did it, yeah at first it looked like i didnt know what i was doing, but after the 20 time I got the hang of it. In my own opinion, after a month, anyone can handle HRD, to make HRD the "graduate" art is laughable to me at this point.


 
Thanks for bringing this up. The TSD vs. HRD was a question I had after that first experience. Maybe TSD should be required for the very young beginning MA students younger than 7 yrs. 

When I was with CMAA I recall he omitted the extreme finishing techniques when teaching the young kids. I agree with this, I don't think little kids should learn how to break necks or tear out throats... at least not until they are old enough to fully comprehend consequences on both ends of the technique.


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## Narsil (Aug 22, 2007)

geocad said:


> I fully agree with this statement. I too looked at another HRD dojang after years of an absence. This other school implied that my former training and rank 'should' be null and void due to who my former instructor was. The potential new school said that they would require me to advance in TSD prior to training HRD. I politely said 'okay, I'll think about it' and never returned to that dojang.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



lol. Realized how small the world is.  Your in AZ and were under CMAA with KJN so you are basically learned in the same HRD that im learning with SBN Gallino, so i know exactly where your coming from.  And yes, i was actually going to add the very young to who would benefit in TSD.  The only real hurdle i have to go through right now is learning forward rolls on the pakwa side(all my right side is great, but my left doesnt kick as high or has greater control)

and another side note, imagine all the extra money you would have to spend to on your way to TSD BB, then to HRD BB.


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## stoneheart (Aug 22, 2007)

As an outsider to HRD, I'd have to think that the whole tae soo do thing is certainly at least partially motivated by money.  More test fees and tuition...


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 22, 2007)

.


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## rmclain (Aug 22, 2007)

Sorry to side-track the thread a bit...

I'm a bit ignorant on this: Who is using the old name, "Tae Soo Do?"  What are they teaching?

R. McLain


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## shesulsa (Aug 22, 2007)

rmclain said:


> Sorry to side-track the thread a bit...
> 
> I'm a bit ignorant on this: Who is using the old name, "Tae Soo Do?"  What are they teaching?
> 
> R. McLain


You'll have to do a bit of looking and reading, but here's their website.


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## stoneheart (Aug 22, 2007)

> I'm a bit ignorant on this: Who is using the old name, "Tae Soo Do?"  What are they teaching?



Mr. McClain, I've viewed some of the Tae Soo Do video tapes. The demonstrators, who are Joo Bang Lee's sons, are talented martial artists.  What is on the video tapes looks like material practiced in most Korean martial arts schools:  lots of kicking combinations, some original hyung that emphasize the flashier moves in KMA, and some locks and takedowns... I recognized nikkyo on one of the tapes - I liked how the Lee brothers showed that it could be flowed from a variety of attacks, and that seems to be Tae Soo Do's self-defense curriculum.  They teach a classical lock or throw and then iterate through the most common situations where it can be applied from for a specific belt level's self-defense requirements.


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## lulflo (Aug 24, 2007)

I don't know what the harm is in learning the different criteria, I am going to class and learning new material and still enjoying class.  It has been said to me that a blue belt in HRD could be measured up to a black belt in some other arts and TSD technically teaches a student the basics of HRD white and orange belt as well as a foundation of throws and some of the joint locks that will become familiar once the student reaches a black belt in TSD.  I don't know many people who started in HRD yellow sash that were comfortable with a flip fall (like Ho Shin Son Mak Sul #2) on the first try.  However, going through the curriculum of TSD, one gets to learn falling at a beginner level with much more time spent on hip throws and shoulder throws so it is a much easier transition when you graduate from TSD to HRD.  Basically you become a Yellow Sash in HRD after you become a black belt in TSD.  Maybe I am learning something different than others do, because I do feel that HRD has more than TSD, but I definetely see the benefits that the other students are feeling/seeing, especially the bigger guys who are not comfortable with being thrown in the air with the  expectation to land on their back with little or no injuries.  I can see how it could be percieved as high school vs. college.  I am not really concerned with belt rankings to be honest, I just want to keep learning and as long as that is the case, I don't care what it is called.  

There are good points being made on this thread, but it almost seems like people take on an attitude of discouragement rather than encouragement and that is the part that is not too appealing for me.  I suppose that as long as you trust your teachers, questions about what you are learning should not be an issue.  I am finding value in every lesson and as far as the basics being learned in white and orange belt, that is great to work hard during those belt rankings, but to revisit as a black belt or at least a higher rank and learn them again from that perspective gives a whole new meaning to the ideas being taught.  I recognize that I am a slow learner, so I am thankful that my teachers' have taken the time to show me again with the knowledge that this time, I can grasp concepts that would have been over my head the first time around.

Maybe I am one of the few, but I have truly wanted to start over as a white belt again so I could do it right this time.  Well, my wish has been granted and you can bet that I am working hard to be the best darn white belt ever.  This time I am ready for the challenge and don't mind all the hard work.   Whew, kind of long winded this time, but will look forward to any further thoughts my fellow brothers and sisters are willing to share with me.

Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2007)

Larry, I have to admire something you said, which is your desire to start over and "do it right the second time around."  I think that's a normal feeling for many martial artists.  But then, that's normal period - kind of a "youth is wasted on the young" thing or "if I only knew then what I know now" perspective.  And I for one am very glad you've committed to relearning the basics because that will only strengthen anything you do with martial arts.

Please understand that it is difficult to express in the written word verbal intonation effectively to ensure one's true point is getting across.  With that caveat, I still have to say I have a strong opinion on the responsibility of teachers to ensure they have a good teaching style which accommodates as many students as possible and through which students can obtain tools to achieve their goals.  I get uncomfortable when people create an entire system of basics because I have to wonder if something isn't lacking in a teaching/learning dynamic.

For instance, when we have a student who is having difficulty making the dora antari work, I feel it is my obligation to get to know the student, observe their approach to the kick, find a way to teach them to achieve the kick, give them homework and in-class assignments to get to the point where they can achieve the kick.  If the kick isn't that great at first but technically correct, the rest is practice.  It is up to the student to follow my instruction, ask good questions, communicate with me what they feel I'm not seeing, etcetera.  

I don't understand the need to create an entire 10-belt system to achieve this and have to wonder, gently, if this is a cultural class system issue.

That's all I really want to say for now.  Please understand I'm only wondering aloud as we are _*all*_ students in this system, from the top to the bottom.

Farang


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## lulflo (Aug 26, 2007)

Thanks for the post SheSulsa!  

I have the same belief as you do, I am working hard on the things I learn as I learn them.  The material I am learning now is mostly so I can be on the same page as my new instructor.  I am learning new material and it is nice to go through many of the same material I went through in the beginning with a fresh set of eyes.  I am being told that I am doing well, but I have a few things that can be better/different.  I had trouble with having several different instructors when this began, but have now acclimated myself to just give in to the new instructors information because it is different information from a different perspective.  I have a hard time letting go of the ego in many situations but have finally understood that when it comes time for instructor Larry to teach, I will end up teaching the way that works for me and that has the potential to leave room for more/different information for my students.

Regarding the facts of the matter, it would be nice to just get on with my current rank and training, but I feel like it is a good thing to be able to learn every facet of my teacher's experience and the beginning is always a good place to start.  In fact, I am learning his style of teaching and beginning to understand that he works in cycles.  Not only am I going to be learning from the beginning, but when a new student begins, he or she will be learning from whatever point we are at and when the cycle starts over (in TSD anyway), it will come full circle for each person based on where they began.  The higher ranks, however will be working on separate criteria, so I am just going through the cycle so I will understand the material and how to teach it, etc.  

I am happy to see the postings on this subject and would be curious to know if anyone else does the training in cycles rather than just starting everyone at the beginning each time.  It kind of reminds me of the movies where there is a large group of students all working on the same thing.  Seems to help to have everyone doing it at the same time, if there is a question, all one has to do is look at what everyone else in class is doing, rather that having many different things going on at once and not having enough instruction because the teacher has to explain several different moves/techniques because of having many different ranks working on different material in a single class. 

There I go rambling again...

Farang - Larry


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## ancient warrior (Oct 24, 2007)

the 1st 6 belts of tsd are what u learn for most tkd karate black belts, then brown -1/2 black start hrd training . thats y u recieve your yellow sash after your bb in tsd  when you recieve your black sash in hrd you are a 2nd degree in tsd  >>>>>>>1st off you arent starting from scratch you are almost a bb in hrd now., Adding training in the same style is only going to help your base grow  >>>>>>>>>>>>>wow so much bs i'm worried !!! why so much anger between hrd students ?we all have the same meng sae i believe,,


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## shesulsa (Oct 24, 2007)

ancient warrior said:


> the 1st 6 belts of tsd are what u learn for most tkd karate black belts, then brown -1/2 black start hrd training . thats y u recieve your yellow sash after your bb in tsd  when you recieve your black sash in hrd you are a 2nd degree in tsd  >>>>>>>1st off you arent starting from scratch you are almost a bb in hrd now., Adding training in the same style is only going to help your base grow  >>>>>>>>>>>>>wow so much bs i'm worried !!! why so much anger between hrd students ?we all have the same meng sae i believe,,


Hello ancientwarrior.

Could you please post in full words and sentences? We don't do the textspeak thing here ... thanks!

As to anger, there's no anger with me, just much curiosity.  But I wonder that you feel a yellow sash in HRD is "almost to bb" - there are indeed eight belts there - yellow, green, purple, blue, brown, red, half-black then black.

So curious, then ... with the first black rank in HRD, you have a second degree black in TSD?  Are we to assume that the curriculum for 2nd degree TSD is, in its entirety, the color rank curriculum of HRD?

Thanks.


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## lulflo (Oct 24, 2007)

Hello SheSulsa,

Based on the curriculum I have been learning, one would become a brown belt (basically) after the black belt of Tae Soo Do (TSD), the difference is that the requirements of the next three belts is expanded upon to include any missed material, but one would also have weapons training basics from their black belt received.  I guess the idea, per my instructor, is that the student would have learned how to be a student prior to taking on the Hwa Rang Do curriculum in its entirety.  I know there are the few and the proud who are die hard students from the beginning to the end, but I have even seen some of them drop out at about blue sash ranking.  I am studying alongside a lady who has been through the TSD curriculum and has her black belt rank.  She is now studying Ho Shin Kwan Jiel as her next set and that is what I had in brown belt.  But she has some weapons training that I don't have and she also has learned teaching skills that I have not.  Along with the techniques learned as a black belt in TSD, the next three ranks provide; Ki power, Weapons and Teaching skills before testing for black sash in Hwa Rang Do.

At least that was what I remember my instructor telling me.  Hope that helps a little.

Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Oct 24, 2007)

So ... you graduate from TSD with your black belt and go to brown in HRD??  I thought it was yellow.

Is it yellow or is it brown?  OR are the techniques just shuffled around?

The woman you are training with, Lulflo, she is now working Ho Shin Kwan Jiel Gi Sul as her next set?  That is indeed brown - is that her TSD 2nd black curriculum, her HRD brown belt curriculum ... or both?


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## mystic warrior (Oct 26, 2007)

Shesulsa
It may depened on if you are training with people from WHRDA or not.
if you are then yes it is yellow.


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## shesulsa (Oct 26, 2007)

mystic warrior said:


> Shesulsa
> It may depened on if you are training with people from WHRDA or not.
> if you are then yes it is yellow.



*blink* *blink*

Ho Shin Kwon Jiel Gi Sul is defense against throws, no?


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## cgb1323 (Oct 30, 2007)

Kong Kyuk Kwan Jyel Gi Sul - Offensive Joint Breaking - Brown Sash
Hoshin Bang Too Gi Sul - Defense against throws - 1/2 black sash

there really isn't any dan ranking after BB in TSD.  It was used at one point - but there really wasn't any curriculum it was simply your HRD dan ranking + 1 = TSD dan ranking.


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## shesulsa (Oct 30, 2007)

cgb1323 said:


> Kong Kyuk Kwan Jyel Gi Sul - Offensive Joint Breaking - Brown Sash
> Hoshin Bang Too Gi Sul - Defense against throws - 1/2 black sash
> 
> there really isn't any dan ranking after BB in TSD.  It was used at one point - but there really wasn't any curriculum it was simply your HRD dan ranking + 1 = TSD dan ranking.


*smacks self in head* I was always bad at Korean.


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## cgb1323 (Oct 30, 2007)

LOL - no problem.  It gets confusing sometimes.  So many sets so little time


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## lulflo (Oct 31, 2007)

I end up doing a lot of smiling and nodding, if I eventually understand it all, I will be happy to expand upon it.  Sorry I can't be of more help, now the BJJ bug has hit the classroom, so that has taken much time lately.  I am going to keep on keepin' on, but in the mean time, with black sash testing coming up in six months or so with my primary instructor/original instructor, it looks like many trips up to Payson for me.  Isn't life fun?!

ps  I gotta train harder, but that can always be said. sigh.

Farang - Larry


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## cgb1323 (Oct 31, 2007)

Smiling and nodding is a game I am all too familiar with.  

To answer an earlier post.  By design a TSD BB receives his/her HRD yellow sash during their ceremony (WHRDA) and then continue their training in HRD.  
The time it takes to get to Black sash is about the same.  Since TSD started there have been more students making it to the higher ranks than there used to be.  Before TSD the majority of students dropped at yellow or green sash and they took a longer amount of time at each rank.

I like what Larry said (or to take one from the KSW folk - "We need more practice".


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