# You might disagree but I think this is great news



## mango.man (Aug 14, 2009)

Taekwondo in the 2016 Olympic Games

Dear beloved Taekwondo Family, WTF Council Members, and Presidents of
WTF Member National Association:

I am pleased to share the good news that the International Olympic
Committee (IOC) Executive Board proposed yesterday the list of 26 core
sports and 2 additional sports, golf and rugby, to be included in the
2016 Olympic Programme (see the full story on
http://www.olympic.org/uk/news/olympic_news/full_story_uk.asp?id=3090).

Out of seven sports, only golf and rugby will have the opportunity to
present at the IOC Session in Copenhagen in October for a final
decision.

With the news, I assure you that Taekwondo as one of the 26 core
sports is officially on the Olympic Programme for both London 2012 AND
the 2016 Games, putting an end to the controversy on this issue.

I wish to dedicate this moment of triumph to all our taekwondo family
who devoted their time and effort for the promotion of the sport of
taekwondo and development of taekwondo as an Olympic sport.  I will
commit myself to further enhancement of taekwondo in each member
national association on this meaningful occasion.

As the President of the WTF, I thank you for working with us for the
cause of taekwondo, which, I believe, are being rewarded with great
pride and joy.  I express my heartfelt appreciation to your ceaseless
support and cooperation.  Let us enjoy the victory we have achieved
together.

Yours Sincerely,

Chungwon Choue
President


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## granfire (Aug 14, 2009)

I suppose it's great news for those youngsters with Olympic stars in their eyes (or should that be rings?)


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## Laurentkd (Aug 14, 2009)

what is that saying about even bad publicity is publicity??? I think it fits here


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## Twin Fist (Aug 14, 2009)

you are right, i disagree


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 14, 2009)

Considering all the grumbling in the USA for the last Olympics and how it was percieved I expect that 2016 will be no better. Unfortuneately the negatives effect all who do TKD irrespecive of whether it is the unfortunate system that is used in the Olympics.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

Rugby! Yay! Much better fighting in that than Olympic Taekwondo! 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJAjoCx6Euw&feature=PlayList&p=03F0E227FC56C3FB&index=29

Warriors to the Olympics!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0W7YdKYPl0&feature=related


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## crushing (Aug 15, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Rugby! Yay! Much better fighting in that than Olympic Taekwondo!


 
Similar to hockey, I doubt Olympic rugby will have the fighting that non-Olympic rugby does.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

crushing said:


> Similar to hockey, I doubt Olympic rugby will have the fighting that non-Olympic rugby does.


 
You can't keep the All Blacks, the Lions, the Wallabies and the Springboks down though lol!


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## jarrod (Aug 15, 2009)

i was thinking about playing on a local rugby team, but it seemed like a bad idea without health insurance.  

found a cool highlight clip, though


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i was thinking about playing on a local rugby team, but it seemed like a bad idea without health insurance.
> 
> found a cool highlight clip, though


 
Union or League rugby? Two different sports. Union hard, League harder lol!
I love MA but there's no way I'll be watching TKd if rugger is on, sorry.


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## jarrod (Aug 15, 2009)

i don't know, it was one where they practiced a couple times a week then went drinking.  that seemed about my speed.

jf


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i don't know, it was one where they practiced a couple times a week then went drinking. that seemed about my speed.
> 
> jf


 
LOL! sounds ideal!
Union has 15 players, League has 13. League faster and arguably better watching for spectators.
don't forget the rugby songs though, important that.


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## jarrod (Aug 15, 2009)

haha, are they on the way back from the post game drinking party, or is this the pre game drinking party?

jf


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> haha, are they on the way back from the post game drinking party, or is this the pre game drinking party?
> 
> jf


 
They were sober on public transport (double decker bus) to the France v England game at Twickers! rugby fans are famous for their good temper before after and during matches.

What I want to know is when is male synchronised swimming going to be in the Olympics?


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## jarrod (Aug 15, 2009)

that's the sport i'm holding out for!


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## msmitht (Aug 15, 2009)

Is there no one who is happy that TKD will continue to be an olympic sport? You do realize that with the new rule changes that the matches will be more dynamic and there will be more head kicking. 
This thread is supposed to be about TKD...not rugby and drinking.


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## Tez3 (Aug 15, 2009)

msmitht said:


> *Is there no one who is happy that TKD will* *continue to be an olympic sport*? You do realize that with the new rule changes that the matches will be more dynamic and there will be more head kicking.
> This thread is supposed to be about TKD...not rugby and drinking.


 
Frankly no, I think Olympic TKD does a huge dis-service to proper TKD, it makes me cringe tbh. The amount of derision it's attracted among non martial artists who then tar all martial arts with the same brush is disheartening. In Britain, Olympic TKD is known as the sport that cheated our lass out of a potential gold medal, there was the country getting behind one of our own in a little known sport and bam the judges prove to be bent. Guess how well that went down. The Cuban guy hitting the ref didn't improve the image. In a country that loves it's boxing the tippy tappy stuff that is the Olympic style TKD is considered soft. TKD people here now have to try and improve the image the UK has of it, so while I wish our TKD team all the best I will be watching something more interesting, like rugby with a drink in my hand, that's real.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 15, 2009)

I hope the new rule changes do make it more exciting to watch.  I'll still watch it regardless, but it is pretty sad when it even bores someone who practices the art... and all the political angles don't get me very excited either.  But I hope for better for 2010.


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## Gorilla (Aug 15, 2009)

msmitht said:


> Is there no one who is happy that TKD will continue to be an olympic sport? You do realize that with the new rule changes that the matches will be more dynamic and there will be more head kicking.
> This thread is supposed to be about TKD...not rugby and drinking.



I am very happy that TKD will be included in the Olympics in 2016(hopefully in Chicago).  Allot of people don't appreciate Sport TKD.  That is because they have never trained with a serious sport TKD School.  We have had several K1 and UFC fighters Cross Train with us and they have allot of respect for sport TKD. GSP states that the spin hook of TKD is one of the best head kicks in Martial Arts.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

not me. i HATE olympic TKD, and i think that the olympic style is 90% of the reason TKD is the laughing stock of the martial arts


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

I think it is great for those competing. For those that don't like it that is fine too. To each his own.


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## dancingalone (Aug 16, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Allot of people don't appreciate Sport TKD.  That is because they have never trained with a serious sport TKD School.



Just like chess or badminton or rhythmic gymnastics or curling:  four other sports/competitions with near non-existent fan bases worldwide.  If you have to be part of it to appreciate it, the sport is probably not worth following.  On the other hand, do you have to play football (either the American type or the soccer type) in order to enjoy it?  No, and both sports have huge popularity as spectator sports on both television and in person.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

As I said Olympic TKD has turned a huge amount of people here off martial arts, not just TKD but martial arts. TF is correct when he says it's a laughing stock, I don't think some of you are seeing what we see when we get people talking scornfully about what they've seen on the Olympics, you didn't see the headlines in the newspapers. MMA is struggling with the perception that it's human cock fighting and TKD is struggling with the perception that it's a childish game.

Chess and badminton do actually have large fan bases around the world, badminton is a big sport here, in Europe and in Asia. It's world association membership is 159 countries. Chess is played by millions. However none of these sports can be confused with any other, you can turn the tele on and there's curling, so you are either going to watch it or or not, you aren't going to mistake it for anything else nor have pre conceived ideas about what it is. Non martial artists rightly or wrongly think they know what martial arts are, it's what they see in films and television programmes it's what they see in boxing and MMA.

There's certain criteria that people expect when they see two martial artists facing each other and bowing, they expect a fight, they expect full contact hands and feet, they expect kumite not a poor sort of shin kicking competition. and you can't tell people here that kicks to the head are exciting, thats the thing our competitor did to the Chinese girl, a roundhouse to the head that rocked her and it was ignored, she didn't get scored for it. It was a hit that any non martial artists could see. This sadly wasn't th only case either, another one of our competitors had the same thing happen. The British public turned their television on to support our competitors and then turned off martial arts and TKD in particular. 

Fine, people watch Olympic TKD but the general public now has an idea that this is TKD, a pale imitation martial art which is a huge dis-service to the real TKD, thats the TKD that the MMAers and the K1 people appreciate not the drippy, self satisfied, blinkered, biased dross that is served up as TKD in the Olympic arena. All the TKD people I know can fight full contact more than competantly, to use the vernacular they 'kick ***'.

I for one, am tired of people these days when I say I do martial arts or the subject comes up, start bouncing around laughing pretending to be Olympic TKD. Keep your sport gentlemen but for goodness sake call it something else other than TKD and martial arts. 'Rythmic kicking' would be a good start.

Sorry if you don't like this view but I'm afraid it's a far more common one than you maybe think.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Just like chess or badminton or rhythmic gymnastics or curling: four other sports/competitions with near non-existent fan bases worldwide. If you have to be part of it to appreciate it, the sport is probably not worth following. On the other hand, do you have to play football (either the American type or the soccer type) in order to enjoy it? No, and both sports have huge popularity as spectator sports on both television and in person.


Hhmmm...Chess, rhythmic gymnastics nor curling are sports in my opinion. Only badminton could be considered a sport. The others are all something different.

Chess is a game of wits. Rhythmic gymnastics is a dance that is then subjectively judged. Curling is an activity that requires no athletic abilities at all, like playing lawn darts or something. Anyone can do it and you need no one to train you nor do you have to condition for it at all. All three are separate classes of something other than a sport.

Now let the debate begin on what is a sport and what is not.

As for the football analogy you really cannot use it. Both sports are deeply rooted as a part of culture. American football is only really popular in America. Some like it in other countries but not the extent that they do in America.

Soccer is something that just about every kid in the world grows up playing regardless of training or being on a team. It is like tag. You don't need much to play it. They used a human head as the ball for the first game ever played, then a goat stomach after that.

However TKD is a cultural sport if you go to Korea. Just like American football it is hugely popular in its country of origin. Also the sport is still evolving. Just like American football, so American football will catch on in other countries once kids start playing the game and growing with it. It takes time for any sport to catch on and grow.

Basketball (American) needed time to do this, as well as Baseball (American also).

Hell Soccer still has not really caught on in America. Yes they have soccer leagues and kids play it all over America but as a TV sport and lets go to the game sport...nah.

TKD needs time to evolve and it also needs TV time. As it is now it is hugely popular and all that with no TV time or school time activity or anything really and look how popular it is around the world.

MMA has really been around for almost ever and it only just got big due to TV time. Come to think about it, every fight I have ever been in from a little kid to when I was in my 20's was an MMA style fight. Couple of punches here, a kick there and then on the ground and have someone give or get on top and ground and pound.

Some may not like it but there are plenty that do and more than enough that compete in it as well.

But to compare TKD to Football and Soccer is like comparing a baby to a full grown man. You just can't really do that.


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## myusername (Aug 16, 2009)

Maybe if they had TKD in the Olympics like the full contact pro-tkd I would get behind it. I think the no hand techniques of the current Olympic TKD is a real turn off spectator wise and for the outsider looks a little daft. However, even if they had more of an ITF version in the Olympics I would fear that people would still confuse the sport with the art.

In my humble opinion, I think that having only the sporting application on constant show drastically affects the credibility of the art. It annoys me that all anyone outside of TKD ever sees is either the riverdance like fighting of Olympic TKD or the flash and sparkle of a demo. We really do it to ourselves as, Olympic TKD aside, when ever you see a TKD demo it is generally all flashy spinning kicks and board breaking! I actually do genuinely enjoy watching these high flying spectacles myself but I also wonder why we can't demonstrate the brutal self defence applications of our style a little more often than we do alongside this! Is it any wonder TKD is widely ridiculed when we hardly ever show its more brutal side!


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

There are many sports in the Olympics I have no interest in and several that i think are a total waste of time but they don't concern me because they don't impinge on what I do. Olympic TKD does, it gives what I do, what iIteach and what I practise. No one who watches synchronised swimming confuses it it with what i do, they don't think those young ladies with the strange smiles is anything like the stuff I teach but the Olympic TKd is. I teach TSD which gets confused often enough as it is with TKD, we fight full contact doing groundwork as well, our other style is MMA, spearate classes though as is the SD work. Yet all are martial arts and are getting tarred with this Riverdance thing that they do in the Olympics (nice one myusername, good analogy!)
We advertise our club, we get people phoning up asking if the dancing stuff they did in Beijing is what we do, our younger students think now that TKD is funny, I've tried to explain but they've seen it on the tele, what can I say and frankly why should I have to defend it? 


ATC, curling is indeed a sport and does require some stamina I can assure you, it's widely played in Scotland, has been since the 16th century if not longer. To hoick a heavy granite stone (44 lbs)  and chase it up a rink 150 feet long does require some fitness. It's a very skilful game requiring a good deal of coaching, no you can't just pick a stone up and chuck it down a rink! 
http://www.fentonsrink.co.uk/what.html


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## Bruno@MT (Aug 16, 2009)

Back when TKD was first approved as an olympic demo, someone asked my kendo sensei if she thought kendo would one day become olympic too 'Just like TKD'. The question made her visibly cringe. She answered that she was proud it was unlikely to happen.


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## dancingalone (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Hhmmm...Chess, rhythmic gymnastics nor curling are sports in my opinion. Only badminton could be considered a sport. The others are all something different.
> 
> Chess is a game of wits. Rhythmic gymnastics is a dance that is then subjectively judged. Curling is an activity that requires no athletic abilities at all, like playing lawn darts or something. Anyone can do it and you need no one to train you nor do you have to condition for it at all. All three are separate classes of something other than a sport.
> 
> ...




I disagree with many of the points you make, but these points take a side seat to the main argument I made, namely that a sport isn't much of a sport if you have to participate in it yourself to be a fan.  In that context, why shouldn't I compare football to sport TKD?  If sport TKD was such a great product, either the Olympic or the point sparring type, it would be on TV somewhere getting good ratings and viewership.  Out of the hundreds of channels available now, you'd think something would wind up on TV even out of desperation from a TV executive to show some cheap programming.  It speaks volumes that there's nothing, nada, zilch.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

ok, it is good news for the fighters.

it is good news for the schools that teach the style


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> ok, it is good news for the fighters.
> 
> it is good news for the schools that teach the style


 
Do they have 6 year old 2nd Dans? I expect they'll be delighted, though they still won't be old enough to compete in 2016.


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## Gorilla (Aug 16, 2009)

Sport TKD gives TKD a bad name and it give Martial Arts a Bad name in general.  This notion is laughable.  If you polled the American population only 1 in 100 would have ever seen a TKD match.  You have to make a great effort to watch sport TKD in the Olympics.  I can name the non demo sport Olympians. Steven Lopez, Dianne Lopez, Mark Lopez, Nia Abdullah, Charlotte Craig, Barb Kunkel and Juan Moreno.  Your chance of going to the Olympics are slim at best only 7 have gone from the USA since 2000.  Tkd has no affect on anything its is a minor sport with a small following outside of Asia.  Saying that Sport TKD is bad for Martial Arts is crazy.  If you don't like it OK most people don't!!!


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

olympic TKD HAS made TKD a laughing stock among other martial arts....


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> olympic TKD HAS made TKD a laughing stock among other martial arts....



Then again, it might just be a vocal minority. (aside from the fact that much has come to light in the last 10-20 years to scrape the luster of anything olympic)


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> olympic TKD HAS made TKD a laughing stock among other martial arts....


 
Sadly this is very true, I say sadly because I have good friends who do TKD and they are excellent fighters and instructors. To be bracketed with the dancers of Olympic TKD is mortifying for them.




Gorilla, as I said before, twice I think now, TKD made the headlines in the media here when our competitors lost out due to biased officials, hell it made all the major news programmes on the television as well as on the front pages on the newspapers. The majority of the UK now thinks what they saw at the Olympics is TKD. This pattern was repeated all across Europe as their fighters also suffered. Martial arts hardly has a 'small following' outside Europe, taken as a whole it has a huge following around the world so the fact that Olympic TKD is a laughing stock affects us all.  For crying out loud look at the page Wikipedia has on it! Oh and look at the different countries competing in it, hardly a 'small following outside Asia' is it? And if all the people in all those countries think this is TKD.......?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I disagree with many of the points you make, but these points take a side seat to the main argument I made, namely that a sport isn't much of a sport if you have to participate in it yourself to be a fan. In that context, why shouldn't I compare football to sport TKD? If sport TKD was such a great product, either the Olympic or the point sparring type, it would be on TV somewhere getting good ratings and viewership. Out of the hundreds of channels available now, you'd think something would wind up on TV even out of desperation from a TV executive to show some cheap programming. It speaks volumes that there's nothing, nada, zilch.


Your point makes no sense. Most Olympic sports are only seen during the Olympics. Notice I said most, there are some that are mainstream sports like Soccer, baseball, Boxing and a few others but if you look at a list of sports that make up the Olympics, most are never watched at all on TV and have very few that follow it at all out side of the people that do the sport.

The problem is not Sport TKD but rather the jealous practitioners of the other arts that want to be in the Olympics. Just listen to the arguments made by others. "It makes my art look bad" How? Most people don't know what sport TKD is.

TKD does not get a bad name from the sport. The people at the top that you see in the Olympics could most likely kick the snot out of most people if they had to. TKD gets a bad name from other MA practitioners that don't even compete in the sport, but have so much to say.

We have had many cross over Martial Artist come to our dojang and each one (not some, not many, but all) have sucked at doing the sport. Even ITF practitioners that have joined our school took quite some time to understand the differences and get decent.

I made this challenge once before but I challenge anyone not doing the sport of TKD to do so. There are many open TKD tournaments where anyone can participate under the WTF rules.

I know I went off topic at the end so get back on topic; *just about* every Olympic sport needs people to have participated in it to appreciate it and be a fan of it.

Oh yeah and even the so called mainstream sports are the same. Everyone has played soccer, just like most Americans have played football or baseball. That is why they are cultural sports.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> The problem is not Sport TKD but rather the jealous practitioners of the other arts that want to be in the Olympics. J



so sorry, i dont want to sound mean, but this just sounds like the typical teenager "they just hate me because they are jealous"

no, they hate you because you are not a nice person.

look, we get it, YOU think olympic style is cool, but i hang out with people OTHER thanTKD folks, and trust me, they LAUGH at us, and at TKD

I was at a seminal yesterday, with over 50 there, most were kenpo kajukenbo people

4 times yesterday, i told people I was a TKD BB, 4 times i got laughed at, or they just shook thier heads.

The 2 I asked why both said the same thing:

8 yr old BB's
Olympic style sparring

NO ONE is jealous of olympic style TKD


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> look, we get it, YOU think olympic style is cool, but i hang out with people OTHER thanTKD folks, and trust me, they LAUGH at us, and at TKD


Who is they? And if you are apart of us then why are they laughing at you also? I have other friends outside of TKD that do and teach other MA, and they don't laugh at me or our school I can tell you that. So they are not laughing at TKD for sure. Maybe some specific TKD people or schools but not me or my school. They even want to come and cross train at our school from time to time.



> I was at a seminal yesterday, with over 50 there, most were kenpo kajukenbo people
> 
> 4 times yesterday, i told people I was a TKD BB, 4 times i got laughed at, or they just shook thier heads.
> 
> ...


So they said nothing about the art itself...hhhmmmmm. My point is strenghthend.



> NO ONE is jealous of olympic style TKD


Just look at what you just stated. Guess I am reading between the lines.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> so sorry, i dont want to sound mean, but this just sounds like the typical teenager "they just hate me because they are jealous"
> 
> no, they hate you because you are not a nice person.
> 
> ...


 

I'm certainly not and the thought makes me laugh to be honest.
Trust me, no one in MMA or full contact karate both of which are my styles is in the slightest bit bothered by jealousy. I will say though I admire proper TKD people, good fighting skills, good kick and punches. 
Perhaps the Olympic 'stars' could fight...if they revert to TKD instead of dancing. I know a fair few MMA fighters whose standup style is TKD and it's not the dancing type either.
I for one would campaign ferociously to keep my martial arts OUT of the Olympics, my other sport, eventing is in already and we have few problems with it so I'm happy.

I would 'suck' at your sport too, thats because I'm used to full contact (no headguards or body protectors) punching, kicking, sweeps and take downs, with shin blocking and use of elbows and knees. Would your guys 'suck' at my sport too do you think? 
As for your challenge, I'll up the ante, any Olympic style TKDer in the UK (or a rich American lol) contact me and I will set up a match for them, same sex, same weight on our next show before Christmas, it's a show for Help For Heroes so it will do some good too. I will match an Olympic type TKDer with either a karate kumite fighter, a MT fighter or an MMAer standing, TKD competitors choice. We have videoing so all can see it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Who is they? And if you are apart of us then why are they laughing at you also? I have other friends outside of TKD that do and teach other MA, and they don't laugh at me or our school I can tell you that. So they are not laughing at TKD for sure. Maybe some specific TKD people or schools but not me or my school. They even want to come and cross train at our school from time to time.
> 
> 
> So they said nothing about the art itself...hhhmmmmm. My point is strenghthend.
> ...


 
It's OLYMPIC TKD that annoys me, not PROPER TKD. As I've said I've got friends who are TKD instructors and they are embarrassed by the Olympic stuff.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> As for your challenge, I'll up the ante, any Olympic style TKDer in the UK (or a rich American lol) contact me and I will set up a match for them, same sex, same weight on our next show before Christmas, it's a show for Help For Heroes so it will do some good too. I will match an Olympic type TKDer with either a karate kumite fighter, a MT fighter or an MMAer standing, TKD competitors choice. We have videoing so all can see it.


WTF rules? That is my challenge. Since most think the Olympic game is so easy or a joke, the challenge is WTF rules. It is to show that the sport is not as easy as many think.

I have strong feeling that many have tried it and was not successful. Just like many people that don't do MA at all always says I'll just use a gun and shoot you, that MA stuff is no good. I think many in the MA world do the same. That stuff is no good it won't work in a real fight. Well no duh!!! No one said it would. Just like everyone knows a gun for the most part trumps all.

See the funny thing is you don't see people that actually play lets say American football put down rugby or baseball or any other pro sport for that matter. They understand that each are different and one does not translate well into the other. They respect what each other does.

Too bad the MA world is not the same. Each art has its sport, so why should anyone care what TKD does for its sport. Don't like it, don't do it.


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## dancingalone (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Your point makes no sense. Most Olympic sports are only seen during the Olympics. Notice I said most, there are some that are mainstream sports like Soccer, baseball, Boxing and a few others but if you look at a list of sports that make up the Olympics, most are never watched at all on TV and have very few that follow it at all out side of the people that do the sport.
> 
> I know I went off topic at the end so get back on topic; *just about* every Olympic sport needs people to have participated in it to appreciate it and be a fan of it.
> 
> Oh yeah and even the so called mainstream sports are the same. Everyone has played soccer, just like most Americans have played football or baseball. That is why they are cultural sports.



Yes, that's why I mentioned curling and the rhythmic gymnastics.  Neither are relevant as sports financially or as a spectator sport.  Sport TKD is likewise irrelevant, Olympic flavor or not.

Swimming, tennis, boxing... All three are examples of Olmpic sports that fans follow without necessarily being a participant themselves.  Surely, you don't plan to argue that these are 'cultural' sports as well?  It's not like I had to rack my brain to come up with those examples either.  



> The problem is not Sport TKD but rather the jealous practitioners of the other arts that want to be in the Olympics. Just listen to the arguments made by others. "It makes my art look bad" How? Most people don't know what sport TKD is.
> 
> TKD does not get a bad name from the sport. The people at the top that you see in the Olympics could most likely kick the snot out of most people if they had to. TKD gets a bad name from other MA practitioners that don't even compete in the sport, but have so much to say.



I agree somewhat.  McDojangs do more to dishonor the image of TKD than Olympic sparring does.  However, sport TKD does little to rehabilitate any poor opinion a lay person may have of TKD itself.  Unfortunately, IMO sport TKD reinforces any negative prejudice lay people may have have.



> We have had many cross over Martial Artist come to our dojang and each one (not some, not many, but all) have sucked at doing the sport. Even ITF practitioners that have joined our school took quite some time to understand the differences and get decent.



I fully realize sport TKD is an athletic endeavor, requiring plenty of committment and hard work to excel in.  However, it is beyond the pale resembling any practical martial application, and that makes it hard for many in martial arts, TKD or not, to take seriously.  



> I made this challenge once before but I challenge anyone not doing the sport of TKD to do so. There are many open TKD tournaments where anyone can participate under the WTF rules.



What of it?  You get good at what you practice and train for.  A successful sport TKDist would have an equally difficult time in one of my training sessions where we train with makiwara and practice classical locks and pins. 

No one disputes that sport TKD is demanding.  It's whether it is relevant that I question.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've got friends who are TKD instructors and they are embarrassed by the Olympic stuff.


Why? I don't think gymnasts are embarrassed by rhythmic gymnast or what they do. I don't think Michael Phelps (or any other mainstream swimmer) is embarrassed by synchronized swimming. They all respect each for what it is and what it takes to do it.

But in the MA world for some reason (I think jealousy and not jealousy of the art but of the fact their arts sport is not represented.) we can't respect Olympic TKD for what it is and what it takes to do it. Everyone thinks they are better and can do better. Then do it. If what you do translates so well and it is so easy to do, then do it. And if you are to old to do it then produce someone that can do it.

Oh and if you use age as an excuse then you have just given the sport some validation. Cause if you think it is so easy to do then your age should not matter and can't be use as an argument.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Swimming, tennis, boxing... All three are examples of Olmpic sports that fans follow without necessarily being a participant themselves. Surely, you don't plan to argue that these are 'cultural' sports as well? It's not like I had to rack my brain to come up with those examples either.


Oh yes they are. Every sport you named is done by everyone in every country. Everyone swims. Everyone boxes or fights. And every country plays tennis and many have tried it. In America Tennis is a sport that is played in the high schools.

Next try. You wont find a sport to support you argument.


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## Tez3 (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Why? I don't think gymnasts are embarrassed by rhythmic gymnast or what they do. I don't think Michael Phelps (or any other mainstream swimmer) is embarrassed by synchronized swimming. They all respect each for what it is and what it takes to do it.
> 
> But in the MA world for some reason (I think jealousy and not jealousy of the art but of the fact their art&#8217;s sport is not represented.) we can't respect Olympic TKD for what it is and what it takes to do it. Everyone thinks they are better and can do better. Then do it. If what you do translates so well and it is so easy to do, then do it. And if you are to old to do it then produce someone that can do it.
> 
> Oh and if you use age as an excuse then you have just given the sport some validation. Cause if you think it is so easy to do then your age should not matter and can't be use as an argument.


 

No one mistakes synchronised swimming for what Micheal Phelps does.

Are you suggesting I'm too old to fight? How bloody insulting.  
I said I'd match any one age for age as it would be ridiculous to have a 14 year old against a 24 year old but there really isn't any need to be so nasty or make personal attacks on me. 

Jealous my martial art isn't in the Olympics, dear me no, I get down on my knees and thank the lord everyday it's not.

Now I'd be obliged if you will go off and insult someone else, you really are quite objectionable you know.


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## dancingalone (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> Oh yes they are. Every sport you named is done by everyone in every country. Everyone swims. Everyone boxes or fights. And every country plays tennis and many have tried it. In America Tennis is a sport that is played in the high schools.
> 
> Next try. You wont find a sport to support you argument.



No way that boxing is a universal activity at all.  In the US, it's primarily an urban activity frequently for lower income youth.  Look at the profiles of the amateur AAU and professional boxers before you try and claim it.

And no, not everyone swims or plays tennis either.  Nor do they play golf.  These activities are popular recreational activities, but they are hardly inset into Americana for young boys like football or baseball are.

Did you have anything to say about my other comments?


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## myusername (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> the sport is not as easy as many think [/COLOR]



No one is suggesting it is easy. I have no doubt that it takes a lot of training, skill, talent and fitness to become accomplished. However, what I am suggesting and what I believe others seem to be suggesting is it looks a bit silly and gives people the completely wrong idea of what TKD actually is. Olympic sparring, alongside Mcdojangs and over the top demos negatively effects the credibility and image of the style in the minds of other martial artists and the general public.

I can assure you as a TKD practitioner my opinions are not born of jealousy but more of embarassment to have what I do associated with it.


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## sadantkd (Aug 16, 2009)

I'm getting pretty tired of reading this "laughing stock" tripe.  Anybody who is laughing is obviously uninformed because a person who is capable of kicking a world class athlete in the head when it's expected will certainly have no problem kicking an untrained attacker in any target of his choosing.  Anybody who thinks I would follow the sport taekwondo rules when defending myself on the street deserves the beating they will surely get.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> No way that boxing is a universal activity at all. In the US, it's primarily an urban activity frequently for lower income youth.


Boxing is the most universal sport other than running. Boxing is something that is done all over the world. Every kid across the world has imitated a box of choice and has used his fist at some point to fight the school bully or some other kid for some reason. So this sport does not even have to be taught to be a part of any countries culture. Everyone boxes, or understands what they see when two people box.


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## dbell (Aug 16, 2009)

sadantkd said:


> I'm getting pretty tired of reading this "laughing stock" tripe.  Anybody who is laughing is obviously uninformed because a person who is capable of kicking a world class athlete in the head when it's expected will certainly have no problem kicking an untrained attacker in any target of his choosing.  Anybody who thinks I would follow the sport taekwondo rules when defending myself on the street deserves the beating they will surely get.



Sadantkd, what you say is true in some cases, but any time I have seen some of these top quality TKD competition fighters in a real fight, these great guys on the mat, are less than stealer on the street.  They tend to miss the kick, get their support leg kicked out from underneath them, etc.  I have seen them try the spinning jump kicks,or jump kicks and watched the person they were fighting just move and the TKD person hit the ground.  (Pretty much what I have seen from any Art that has jumping/flying kicks.)

Now, your premise is that the TKD person is fighting an untrained fighter...  In this case, it may be true in many instants, but again, I have seen them fail immensely.


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## sadantkd (Aug 16, 2009)

I can't fathom the stupidity of someone who would laugh at a highly trained athlete who is world class in ANY sport.  Especially not one that entails kicking somebody in the head with sufficient force to knock them unconcious.  If anybody did laugh at me based on something they had no understanding of, I can assure you they wouldn't be laughing after seeing me train.  I'm not bragging here or saying I'm so impressive.  The same is true for any well trained olympic style taekwondo athlete.

Would you agree that any person who thinks an olympic taekwondo fighter is incapable of transferring and adapting those skills to a self defense situation is obviously uninformed as to the realities of taekwondo?  If you agree to that point, then do you really think an uniformed person is gonna  be more turned off by watching two people actually trying to kick eachother, or watching oh I don't know say a karate kata with it's low stances weird breathing and techniques that look absolutely ridiculous to someone who doesn't understand?


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

dbell said:


> Sadantkd, what you say is true in some cases, but any time I have seen some of these top quality TKD competition fighters in a real fight, these great guys on the mat, are less than stealer on the street. They tend to miss the kick, get their support leg kicked out from underneath them, etc. I have seen them try the spinning jump kicks,or jump kicks and watched the person they were fighting just move and the TKD person hit the ground. (Pretty much what I have seen from any Art that has jumping/flying kicks.)


Huh????? What top quality TKD competitors have you seen in a real fight? I very seriously doubt that you have seen even one of them in a real fight? Names please. I am all for a good debate but please just don't make things up because it sounds good.


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## sadantkd (Aug 16, 2009)

I don't doubt that you have seen this occaisionally, but if they're attempting those types of kicks without having set them up, then by definition, they're not well trained fighters.  And another point I'd have to make is that I remember Mike Tyson breaking his hand in a street fight when he was unquestionably the best boxer in the world.  So, should I say boxing is worthless on the street?  I mean, after all if the best in the world can't use it in a fight without getting hurt. . .


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> No one mistakes synchronised swimming for what Micheal Phelps does.


That was not my comment. I said that Micheal Phelps was not emberassed by other swimming sports such as synchronised swimming. I stated that *he* repected it for what it was. Not sure why you are stating something I did not say.



> Are you suggesting I'm too old to fight? How bloody insulting.
> I said I'd match any one age for age as it would be ridiculous to have a 14 year old against a 24 year old but there really isn't any need to be so nasty or make personal attacks on me.


I never made any personal attack on your or your age. When I speak it is in general terms for all to comment on. Nothing is directed to any single person. Sorry if you took it that way.

Also when you compete at any USAT event there are age brackets. Sr's are 17-32. However at 14 you can fight as a Sr. if you choose to. So it is not uncommon to see a 14 year old fight a 24 year old.

Charlotte Craig was only 17 at the last Olympics. I am sure she fought a few 24 year olds and older to get there.



> Jealous my martial art isn't in the Olympics, dear me no, I get down on my knees and thank the lord everyday it's not.


Then why are you disrepecting a sport that is if it has nothing to do with you or your art. This is what I do not understand about all the posters that are doing such.



> Now I'd be obliged if you will go off and insult someone else, you really are quite objectionable you know.


Again, I did not insult you at all. I never directed any negitive comment towards you at all. If you percived this to be the case I apologize for that but I would apprecieate it if you re-read my comment that you feel was directed at you personally again. I feel that you will see that there was nothing directed to you personally. I don't even know you so how can I make any direct attacks towards you?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

there is no profit in debating with zealots


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## sadantkd (Aug 16, 2009)

or fools who disparage things they obviously don't understand.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

kickboxing isnt hard to understand


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Did you have anything to say about my other comments?


 
OK, I'll play.



> Sport TKD is likewise irrelevant, Olympic flavor or not.


So why does the irrelevant matter so much to you? I tend to ignore what is irrelevant to me.


> IMO sport TKD reinforces any negative prejudice lay people may have have.


 
At least you state that this is your opinion. Most students that take traditional TKD in our dojang respect the sport after trying it. They all state that it looks easier than it is. They are amaze at how fast the guys are that they go up against. We have quite a few adult black belts that have never done the sport side and have learned TKD else ware. Once they try it they all have a new found respect. This is why I don't get all the disrespect for the sport I hear. This is why I know most doing all the negative talking have never done it. It is what it is.


> I fully realize sport TKD is an athletic endeavor, requiring plenty of committment and hard work to excel in. However, it is beyond the pale resembling any practical martial application, and that makes it hard for many in martial arts, TKD or not, to take seriously.


The same can be said for all martial arts and their sport. Again this is an issue that the individual needs to get over. I could careless if anyone takes TKD seriously or not. Just as long as they don't put their hands on me we will never have to find out how serious it is.



> What of it? You get good at what you practice and train for. A successful sport TKDist would have an equally difficult time in one of my training sessions where we train with makiwara and practice classical locks and pins.


 
Not sure what you are saying here. So is that a sport that you practice. The two don't translate the same. In TKD we all practice some sort of locks and pins as well. If I come to your class I am sure I can get a lock or pin technique. Now the question is how do you measure my locking and pin abilities? Is there a sport that you do that I can train what I learned to the point of being known as one of the best lockers and pinners? Not sure what you are comparing here.

Anyways, all I am saying is TKD the sport is what it is, and I only hear other martial artis doing the complaining for some reason. I am 100% sure that I would hear the same if it were any other MA in the Olympics. This is why I say it is jealousy. If it werent TKD then it would something else. So I guess this thread and all the arguments are *irrelevant*.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

sadantkd said:


> I don't doubt that you have seen this occaisionally, . . .


I doubt it very much. When and where would they ever be in real fights? Only thugs and teenage kids have real fights. Who really fights for real? Only people being mugged or robbed but no one else, and then its called self defense.:shrug:


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> kickboxing isnt hard to understand


So why is it not on TV anymore (here in the US, I don't know if it is eles ware) or the Olympics?


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## sadantkd (Aug 16, 2009)

Well, I used to have to fight quite often when I was growing up in the 80's.  Granted that was before people were shooting eachother for no reason.  Anyway, I didn't feel it was my place to call him a liar, because I don't know what he has or has not seen.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> So why is it not on TV anymore (here in the US, I don't know if it is eles ware) or the Olympics?




PKA went off the air cuz it sucked, and people wouldnt watch it, it started looking like boxing, but the boxers wernt any good

korean kickboxing is boring, dull, and they fall over every 15 seconds, no one wants to watch that


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## Marginal (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> So why is it not on TV anymore (here in the US, I don't know if it is eles ware) or the Olympics?


ESPN still runs K-1 shows. 

Don't remember ever seeing Olympic TKD on TV.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

sadantkd said:


> Well, I used to have to fight quite often when I was growing up in the 80's. Granted that was before people were shooting eachother for no reason. Anyway, I didn't feel it was my place to call him a liar, because I don't know what he has or has not seen.


Yeah, in the 70's and 80's I fought a lot. But now days there is not that much fighting at all. Which is a good thing, but I doubt he has seen any of todays and even in the 80's, tops fighters fighting outside the ring. They would not risk it.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Marginal said:


> ESPN still runs K-1 shows.
> 
> Don't remember ever seeing Olympic TKD on TV.


ESPN2 and ESPNC run reruns of K - 1. Nothing new.

Nope. No WTF matches at all on US TV. Now in Europe and Asia yes.


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## granfire (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> ESPN2 and ESPNC run reruns of K - 1. Nothing new.
> 
> Nope. No WTF matches at all on US TV. Now in Europe and Asia yes.



You have better chances of seeing the latest match of 'Magic, the Gathering' on ESPN

(besides, Olympic coverage sux anyhow.)


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## Marginal (Aug 16, 2009)

ATC said:


> ESPN2 and ESPNC run reruns of K - 1. Nothing new.


Must still have some level of interest then. Running kickboxing down when it actually gets more attention doesn't make TKD look better.


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## ATC (Aug 16, 2009)

Marginal said:


> Must still have some level of interest then. Running kickboxing down when it actually gets more attention doesn't make TKD look better.


Not sure of what you are stating. I just simply agreed that old K-1 matches are sometimes shown on the ESPN2 and ESPNC channles. What does "running kickboxing down" mean?


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## K-man (Aug 17, 2009)

It's probably my Irish ancestry, but for the life of me I can't see what all the fuss is about. I reckon Olympic style TKD is right up there with 'Catching the Javelin' and 'Heading the Shot'. Some things should be in the Olympics and some things shouldn't. It is reasonable apparent what the majority this forum think! :asian:


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## d1jinx (Aug 17, 2009)

just curious why this thread gets to ramble on so long and not get shut down like the last thread that had a "debate"....

Ooopps, there goes the new guys commenting.... guess its shut down now.


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## d1jinx (Aug 17, 2009)

oh... wait.... it's like beetlejuice right....

Kukkiwon, Kukkiwon, Kukkiwon.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Boxing is the most universal sport other than running. Boxing is something that is done all over the world. Every kid across the world has imitated a box of choice and has used his fist at some point to fight the school bully or some other kid for some reason. So this sport does not even have to be taught to be a part of any countries culture. Everyone boxes, or understands what they see when two people box.



Using that logic, walking or running is the most widespread sport.  My definition of a sport is an organized activity with a rule set, judges, and competitors and coaches.  Boxing fits that definition but it would be very incorrect to say that many people participate in the sport of boxing at all.


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## Gorilla (Aug 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm certainly not and the thought makes me laugh to be honest.
> Trust me, no one in MMA or full contact karate both of which are my styles is in the slightest bit bothered by jealousy. I will say though I admire proper TKD people, good fighting skills, good kick and punches.
> Perhaps the Olympic 'stars' could fight...if they revert to TKD instead of dancing. I know a fair few MMA fighters whose standup style is TKD and it's not the dancing type either.
> I for one would campaign ferociously to keep my martial arts OUT of the Olympics, my other sport, eventing is in already and we have few problems with it so I'm happy.
> ...


*
*

What you are trying to do is compare on art to the other.  They are apples and oranges.  Nobody in sport TKD would ever suggest the the style that they use in the sport would work in another sport.  If they trained in Karate, Muy Tai or MMA for the length of time need to become proficient(in that particular sport) they would do just fine.  I live in Las Vegas the land of MMA we have had K1 fighter and A UFC fighter both of some fame that cross-train with us from time to time. Neither of them would spar with our guys using sport tkd rules because it is not their sport.  They both have respect for TKD.  The come for the cardio training and to learn the Back Kick, Axe Kick and the Spin Hook.  Why do we always have to play the my art can beat up your art game.  It is lame!!!  A true world class athlete understands the amount of effort it takes to be the best in the world at anything!!!  They may not like the sport for various reasons but they can respect the skill needed to reach a world class level.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Sport TKD is irrelevant as a sport worldwide is what I meant obviously.  If I take the time and effort to comment on a thread, it's a topic on which I have some interest.  In my case, I dislike the current product.  I think it's devoid of martial meaning and brings little credit to TKD as a credible fighting system.  I would love to see sport TKD evolve to be something more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Sport TKD is irrelevant as a sport worldwide is what I meant obviously. If I take the time and effort to comment on a thread, it's a topic on which I have some interest. In my case, I dislike the current product. I think it's devoid of martial meaning and brings little credit to TKD as a credible fighting system. I would love to see sport TKD evolve to be something more.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
If the sport bothers you so much then don't watch it, don't do it, and stop complaining about it. Something so irrelevant sure seems to take up so much of your time. It obviously is not irrelevant or it would not be talked about so much, nor be in the Olympics, nor would it even be considered a sport. Some body thinks it's relevant enough, as over 160 countries do it, and they just extended in the Olympics to 2016. So your silly argument that you are trying to make really holds no water. You obviously think it is relevant enough to warrant your time and efforts to convince someone that it is not. So I really can't take any of you points as serious when you make the statement that you did and then put some much time and effort into talking about something that you think is irrelevant. Most people just ignore the irrelevant.

Pick a better word next time because *irrelevant* does not fit.


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## terryl965 (Aug 17, 2009)

My God can we ever get away from the sportside sucking. I mean can't each person just get the hell off of there high horse. I know for me the sport means my sons are doing something they like and it keep them in the Art. I mean come on how many here started off as a child in the arts? I bet if you did going to tournaments was one of the biggest joys you had. Why is it bad for some to love the sport, what does this do to you? I myself cannot stand watching Baseball it is boring as hell maybe because I did not enjoy it as a child. 

What my personal goals are does not in anyway effect anybody else. I train because I can maybe not like years ago but still I enjoy it, my Master was a gentle man with a big stick when it came to perfection reminded me of my own father, you see in the Marines only perfection matters, there is no grey it was right or wrong and no mabes. This is the part of TKD that I hold close to my heart and everyone else should too, you see all of us whether we like it or not are in the same ship. So can we leave the soapbox at home and talk about what is important and that is training.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Using that logic, walking or running is the most widespread sport. My definition of a sport is an organized activity with a rule set, judges, and competitors and coaches. Boxing fits that definition but it would be very incorrect to say that many people participate in the sport of boxing at all.


Wow! Boxing is in every country just as you put it. Everyone in every country knows what boxing is becasue at whatever level, most have done it, even if not in an actual ring.

Oh and Walking and Running are both sports, that are organized activities, with rules, coaches, judges and competitors. Ever heard of track and field.

I am done with this debate.


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## mango.man (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> You challenged people who don't like Olympic type sparring to try it out, saying they would be surprised at how tough it is. My remark was pretty clear. I know it's tough for someone who has never trained for the activity to step in and do well. It's the same situation for someone from a sport background to step into my class and do well. We focus on fighting application and we condition our fists and our legs and our torsos. We teach a full course of locks and pins with kyusho concepts included, all stemming from full kata bunkai study progressing to fully resistant training. I mention this just to show that different people train different things. Just as you believe novices would find Olympic sparring difficult to adapt to, I know fully well that a sport TKDist would find my class tough sledding at first until they successfully shifted to what I emphasize.


 
I think that MOST sport TKDist started off in "Traditiional" TKD before moving on and focusing on the sport aspects.  Therefore I think that most would have an easier time transitioning back to "Traditional" than a "Traditional" only student would have transitioning to Sport.

And yes I put "Traditional" in quotes because really, how much "Tradition" is there in a roughly 54 year old activity?

Opps, is that a whole new can of worms I just opened?  Well since this is my thread I guess I have that right.


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## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> [/b]
> 
> What you are trying to do is compare on art to the other. They are apples and oranges. Nobody in sport TKD would ever suggest the the style that they use in the sport would work in another sport. If they trained in Karate, Muy Tai or MMA for the length of time need to become proficient(in that particular sport) they would do just fine. I live in Las Vegas the land of MMA we have had K1 fighter and A UFC fighter both of some fame that cross-train with us from time to time. Neither of them would spar with our guys using sport tkd rules because it is not their sport. They both have respect for TKD. The come for the cardio training and to learn the Back Kick, Axe Kick and the Spin Hook. Why do we always have to play the my art can beat up your art game. It is lame!!! A true world class athlete understands the amount of effort it takes to be the best in the world at anything!!! They may not like the sport for various reasons but they can respect the skill needed to reach a world class level.


 

I'm not comparing sports at all, what I suggest is that the TKD competitor picks which stylist they want to go against and they fight _*TKD Olympic*_ rules, so you are a bit wrong there aren't you. I know MMA fighters who can 'fight' to those rules and funnily enough I know a MT fighter that can too so there you go.

Right one last time for those of you who are wrapped up in your defensive bubble.
I am not attacking TKD I'm hacked off with the Olympic stuff. The officials robbed our competitors blind , the whole thing stank like week old fish and the dancing around makes non martial artists laugh. This in turn casts a shadow over other martial arts because these non martial artists think we all do the riverdance thing, well we must, they've seen it on the tele.
Bully for all those that live in Vegas, send us a postcard sometime but don't lecture us.
I would happily leave the whole thing alone but for the simple fact that the Olympic stuff and what went on at Beijing made all the media spotlight us. We got phone calls asking us to comment on what went on at the Olympics and could we explain the 'funny fighting' style from local papers. No amount of us explaining we don't do TKD gets through "but you have a martial arts club". 
le advertised our club as we do periodically at about the same time as the Olympics and we got comments from soldiers that I really couldn't post here as they were derogatory, they'd watched the TKD thinking it was fighting and well, it wasn't. 
OLympic TKD annoys me because it affects my club, I don't actually care what you do, enjoy any style you like but having the general population think thats what we do isn't on.

ATC, never in any fighting art i have done have 14 year olds been matched against 24 year old, it's just not on to match boys against men however 'equal' in rank they may be.

That's my beef against Olympic TKD, not TKD as such or any other thing anyone wants to do, when anything affects my club I'm not a happy bunny.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 17, 2009)

now, here is an idea, make it a 3 pronged event.

fighting-hands count, and if you fall over, you dont score
kata-traditional kata only
breaking-either creative or power

combined score wins the medal

that THAT I would watch


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not comparing sports at all, what I suggest is that the TKD competitor picks which stylist they want to go against and they fight _*TKD Olympic*_ rules, so you are a bit wrong there aren't you. I know MMA fighters who can 'fight' to those rules and funnily enough I know a MT fighter that can too so there you go.
> 
> Right one last time for those of you who are wrapped up in your defensive bubble.
> I am not attacking TKD I'm hacked off with the Olympic stuff. The officials robbed our competitors blind , the whole thing stank like week old fish and the dancing around makes non martial artists laugh. This in turn casts a shadow over other martial arts because these non martial artists think we all do the riverdance thing, well we must, they've seen it on the tele.
> ...


Hi Tez3 hope that you realize that I did not direct anything personal towards you. Had to get that out of the way first.

As for you reason of not liking Olympic TKD, every sport had bad judging from time to time. We have all seen some boxer, MMA fighter and so on get robbed really bad when left up to the judges. It is just the nature of things.

As for 14 vs. 24+ it happens. It is your choice though. Jrs are 14-17 but they can compete as a Sr. if they want. Like I said Charlotte Craig fought as Sr. at 15 I think, and she made it to the Olympics at 17. It is not uncommon. My son is 10 and he competes against 14-15 year olds all the time. In our dojang we have on other 10 year olds that can compete with him so he has to fight teenagers. Funny seeing this 4 8 kids owning kids 5 or taller.

As for non MA people equating what they see on the TV to what you do, is also par for the course. Not much we as a whole can do but educate. I am sure when people see Karate point sparring they say the same thing. Only MMA gets respected becasue it is what it is. MMA is the rawest form of combat outside of real combat. So if you are not doing that then you are not doing anything most think.

Any traditional MA will be looked at as funny by most not just TKD if left to the sport or competitions of each said sport. Now there are some arts that do full contact that are enough for most to look like combat. K-1, Muay Tai and others in a similar vein, but even those have lost viewer ship.

There is really nothing out there anymore that shows the grace and beauty of each arts core anymore. Only TKD still has something that showcases its arts foundation. Could it be better? Of course it could. Will it better? I can only hope so. Boxing is vastly different than when it was started. MMA is not the same as the first UFC matches when it first started. Everything takes time to evolve and you have to go through the pains of that growth and evolution. Nothing just starts or begins at the evolved stated, nothing.

I understand you pains but help make it better some how. Help educate the public as to what it is that are watching.

I for one like watching each arts sport at its pure form. It all there was is MMA to watch would be boring to me. MMA is great but I do like seeing beautiful properly thrown kick that have to be set up to land also. I like seeing a well timed and executed reverse punch also. A good foot stomp then back fist is beautiful to watch as well. None of this will be seen in you classic MMA match. It just can't be done as the fear of going to the ground won't allow any of this.

To be honest, the sport TKD is what is keeping all traditional arts alive. Or will all just need to be in an MMA and wrestling gym, maybe that what it will be soon, MMA only.


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## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2009)

I've watched a great deal of MMA fights and have seen great kicking and punching  in what you would call a traditional style, I've seen MMA fights that never went to ground. It may be that most of our fighters come from a traditional background, we have several karatekas fighting as well as TKD people.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> now, here is an idea, make it a 3 pronged event.
> 
> fighting-hands count, and if you fall over, you dont score
> kata-traditional kata only
> ...


That is what most events are like, minus the hands of course.

WTF rules state, if you fall down while throwing a technique that does not land then you get a half point deduction. Also if you fall to many times while doing a technique that lands you can still are to be penalized the half point each time you fall.

The problem is that the center ref has all power, so if he/she does not penalize then there is nothing that can be done.

Just like the rule states that you cannot just stand or not engage in fighting for more than 10 seconds. If you do not fight and 10 seconds has passed then the person seen as the non aggressor (moving backwards) is given a half point deduction. Refs again do not always call this. They are getting better at it lately though.

Also you cannot flee or run from your opponent. This also is a half point deduction. Taking 3 steps back with no intent on countering or fighting is considered fleeing. Again the Refs rarely call this.

There are rules in place to keep the matches all action but until the refs start calling them as they are stated there is not much that can be done. The rules are black and white but the refs see them as gray and feel that they have room for interpretations. No! This is not the case.

My son lost at his last Jr. Olympics match because the kid he was fighting chose to run the entire match after getting one point. Not once did he get a fleeing penalty. The kid would flee then hold. Ref would break then he would flee then hold again. Only at the very end of the match when time was at 1 second did the ref give his first fleeing half point deductions, and only after we complained by shouting into the ring "He's Fleeing, He's Fleeing". Well a half point only counts when you have two of them. If you score and point and then get a half point deduction you still have 1 point until you get two half points, so my son lost 1 - 0.

But most tournaments are just as you listed, again minus the hands.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Wow! Boxing is in every country just as you put it. Everyone in every country knows what boxing is becasue at whatever level, most have done it, even if not in an actual ring.
> 
> Oh and Walking and Running are both sports, that are organized activities, with rules, coaches, judges and competitors. Ever heard of track and field.
> 
> I am done with this debate.



I might duck too if I had overreached myself.  My initial point is that a sport isn't much of a sport if one had to be a participant to appreciate the sport.  Lots of people like boxing and yet they DO NOT BOX.  I don't care if they got into a fist fight when they were 8, they still did not box.  Same thing with walking and running.  We all walk or run, but few of us participate in track and field.  Meanwhile, it seems that the people who do like sport TKD all do it themselves or have family members that do.

THAT is the point.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> If the sport bothers you so much then don't watch it, don't do it, and stop complaining about it. Something so irrelevant sure seems to take up so much of your time. It obviously is not irrelevant or it would not be talked about so much, nor be in the Olympics, nor would it even be considered a sport. Some body thinks it's relevant enough, as over 160 countries do it, and they just extended in the Olympics to 2016. So your silly argument that you are trying to make really holds no water. You obviously think it is relevant enough to warrant your time and efforts to convince someone that it is not. So I really can't take any of you points as serious when you make the statement that you did and then put some much time and effort into talking about something that you think is irrelevant. Most people just ignore the irrelevant.
> 
> Pick a better word next time because *irrelevant* does not fit.




You missed my entire point.  I support sport TKD, just not in its current incarnation.    

And calm down.  I seem to be angering you and that's not my intent.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've watched a great deal of MMA fights and have seen great kicking and punching in what you would call a traditional style, I've seen MMA fights that never went to ground. It may be that most of our fighters come from a traditional background, we have several karatekas fighting as well as TKD people.


Have to wait until I get home to see the clip.

Yes there are exception but they are just that the exceptions not the rule. Most kicks are thrown to get you leg back to the ground fast as to not have it grabbed or let swept out from under you. Most kick don't have the extention nor the hip turned for the same fear. Most punches are not thrown as a boxer would throw a punch for fear of the leg shoot or the leg kick. MMA is a different animal where form style techniques are not going to be thrown and can't be thrown. I understand that. But that is when the beauty of the art is not seen.

Yes form time to time you will see a nice pretty kick or punch but again they are rare.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> My God can we ever get away from the sportside sucking.



I am disappointed that this thread seems to have escalated where feelings are hurt.  But surely we are all adults and we can differ without taking shots at one another?  And for that matter, the thread title does seem to invite yet another discussion about sport TKD.  We can't very well complain about the result if we make a comment that we know others will disagree with.


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## terryl965 (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I am disappointed that this thread seems to have escalated where feelings are hurt. But surely we are all adults and we can differ without taking shots at one another? And for that matter, the thread title does seem to invite yet another discussion about sport TKD. We can't very well complain about the result if we make a comment that we know others will disagree with.


 

Lets see been on this forum forever it seems, over the last three months it has become another site I will not mention. Dis-agreeing is fine belittling the art or sport is a diferent matter. I feel this is just another attempt at bashing Olympic Style TKD, sorry but it is my opinion. All I am saying if certain people hate the sport and see the thread as a sport thread than jsut make a commit and go about you everyday life.

I too hate the sport at times and think it is bad alot of the time but I also can see the good it is doing and can accept it.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

mango.man said:


> I think that MOST sport TKDist started off in "Traditiional" TKD before moving on and focusing on the sport aspects.  Therefore I think that most would have an easier time transitioning back to "Traditional" than a "Traditional" only student would have transitioning to Sport.



I disagree.  It depends on what you consider "traditional".  If you mean the typical McDojang fare out there, I'm not going to argue.  I believe there's are different timing and sensory skills that come into play when you practice a full hoshinsul curriculum, and those take time and practice to develop just as it takes work to develop in sport TKD. 

It does help to be athletic in any martial activity, and people who do Olympic sparring are surely athletic.



> And yes I put "Traditional" in quotes because really, how much "Tradition" is there in a roughly 54 year old activity?  Opps, is that a whole new can of worms I just opened?  Well since this is my thread I guess I have that right.



Depends on what you practice.  There are those who practice skills that are shared with the hapkido people now as well as those delving back into the older forms for the Okinawan bunkai.

As for TKD being a relatively young art, I don't think anyone will dispute that.  At its face, TKD is a very punchy kicky art.  It's in the digging that things start being interesting.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> You missed my entire point. I support sport TKD, just not in its current incarnation.
> 
> And calm down. I seem to be angering you and that's not my intent.


No I did not miss your point, your point was not clearly stated and even with you clarification is still a bit conflicting to me. How can you support something that dose not exist. What you see is what sport TKD is, to say you support it but not in its current state is like me saying I don't like the Iphone the way it is but I support what they are doing and I will like it later. How can I say this? I have no clue as to what the Iphone will be like. It may become something even worse to me. If I support it then I think they are on the right track and are doing thing correctly, or I don&#8217;t

All I can say is that I don't like the Iphone the way it is. Then I can only tell you what I want it to be like and how I would like it. But I cannot support it and hate it at the the same time.

I support what sport TKD is. Are there some things that I would like to see changed? Yes. But I am not going to condemn what it is today because I would like to see some changes? Am I going to call what they have today irrelevant? No. Because today's sport is very relevant to tomorrows sport.

I am not angry just annoyed at some of your statements that don't make a point or sense. I think you may have a point that you are trying to get across but you are not communicating them well. Or it could be that I just don't get them. Either way I don't think I need to take my arguments any further. I appreciate your passion and it was fun debating this subject.

OH BY THE WAY I LOVE THE IPHONE, just used that as an example.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Dis-agreeing is fine belittling the art or sport is a diferent matter. I feel this is just another attempt at bashing Olympic Style TKD, sorry but it is my opinion. All I am saying if certain people hate the sport and see the thread as a sport thread than jsut make a commit and go about you everyday life.



I can only speak for myself.  To me bashing would be something like "Olympic TKD sucks.  Only lamers do it."  To say that you find sport TKD devoid of martial meaning as I did is a comment and not bashing, particularly if you take the time to explain yourself more or to develop the idea.

I appreciate that the people on this board who do sport TKD are weary of the criticism.  With that in mind, I would just suggest a moratorium then on posting sport TKD threads as they invite comment from all people on this board and some are bound to have a negative opinion of it.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> No I did not miss your point, your point was not clearly stated and even with you clarification is still a bit conflicting to me. How can you support something that dose not exist.



Well, I can support world peace and universal literacy, can't I?  Neither exist.

There are things I would change about sport TKD if I were appointed the Czar in charge.  Below are a few obvious ones.  

1) Allow punches, including head shots, and score appropriately for them.  Give kicks a premium on points since this is TKD after all, but let's keep things real.

2) Allow sweeps and takedowns.  This would get rid of the bouncing up and down and the occasional one legged hopping you see in matches.

3) Score for combination techniques.  Ideally, the highest combo potential would come from 3+ technique chain, such as a kick to the head, a punch to the gut, leading into a double leg sweep from the front.

4) Referees should face review and punishment procedures similar to what is done in NCAA football or NFL football.  This will hopefully ensure that judging is both competent and honest.

Just a few off the top of my head.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Well, I can support world peace and universal literacy, can't I? Neither exist.


Wow!!! You can't be serious with this as a response to what I stated. See this is what I am talking about that annoys me. You response is totaly out of context to what was being said. It is like something my kids would respond with. I don't know if you are being serious or just joking. I hope it is the latter. I really hope so.


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

No, I'm serious.  It's hard to convey humor or sarcasm in just the written word so I tend to avoid in unless in person.  If you wanted a different type of response, perhaps a smiley face would be in order to indicate the appropriate level of response.

There's another poster on MT, not you, who has a habit of "saying" some fairly outrageous things that could even be construed as an insult.  When called on it, he plays it as off as "just kidding".

What does proper netiquette say?


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## Gorilla (Aug 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not comparing sports at all, what I suggest is that the TKD competitor picks which stylist they want to go against and they fight _*TKD Olympic*_ rules, so you are a bit wrong there aren't you. I know MMA fighters who can 'fight' to those rules and funnily enough I know a MT fighter that can too so there you go.
> 
> Right one last time for those of you who are wrapped up in your defensive bubble.
> I am not attacking TKD I'm hacked off with the Olympic stuff. The officials robbed our competitors blind , the whole thing stank like week old fish and the dancing around makes non martial artists laugh. This in turn casts a shadow over other martial arts because these non martial artists think we all do the riverdance thing, well we must, they've seen it on the tele.
> ...



*I would 'suck' at your sport too, thats because I'm used to full contact (no headguards or body protectors) punching, kicking, sweeps and take downs, with shin blocking and use of elbows and knees. Would your guys 'suck' at my sport too do you think?
As for your challenge, I'll up the ante, any Olympic style TKDer in the UK (or a rich American lol) contact me and I will set up a match for them, same sex, same weight on our next show before Christmas, it's a show for Help For Heroes so it will do some good too. I will match an Olympic type TKDer with either a karate kumite fighter, a MT fighter or an MMAer standing, TKD competitors choice. We have videoing so all can see it.
*
I did not take your post as fighting Olympic style TKD rules because it does not state that.  I won't be in Engalnd until 2012 (hopefully).  On occasion we get Karate folks at TKD tournaments(2006 JKI) always fun to watch.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> No, I'm serious. It's hard to convey humor or sarcasm in just the written word so I tend to avoid in unless in person. If you wanted a different type of response, perhaps a smiley face would be in order to indicate the appropriate level of response.
> 
> There's another poster on MT, not you, who has a habit of "saying" some fairly outrageous things that could even be construed as an insult. When called on it, he plays it as off as "just kidding".
> 
> What does proper netiquette say?


Well then enough said.


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## ATC (Aug 17, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I've watched a great deal of MMA fights and have seen great kicking and punching in what you would call a traditional style, I've seen MMA fights that never went to ground. It may be that most of our fighters come from a traditional background, we have several karatekas fighting as well as TKD people.


Just watche the video as I am at home now. That was great. The highlights for the clip were choosen perfectly. It really showed a mixture of MA styles. Nice MT knees, and you can clearly see that his kicking is more advanced than most MMA fighters. You can see he also has some wrestling skills as well. With the kicking you can see the cleaness of the kicking techiques. I would guess or assume that this person has some TMA training more than just the basic that a lot of MMA fighter have. Reason being it that a back spinning kick (spining heel or wheel kick as some call it) was done with pretty good technique. Many that I see attempt this kick with only kickboxing or MMA training only throw this kick with really poor technique thus removing the power, snap and speed of the kick. Looks like a true MMA fighter. I say that because the term MMA means Mixed Martial Arts. I see to many that really don't have a any real experience with TMA training other than basics.

Thanks for the Video.

Is this guy out of your studio?


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Well then enough said.



Indeed.  Language is a funny thing.  It works when you say what you mean.


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## NPTKD (Aug 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Indeed. Language is a funny thing. It works when you say what you mean.


 
 you know there is a lot to be said about a person who has a great vocabulary! I feel you do a great job of hidding your message in your posts.


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## Marginal (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Not sure of what you are stating. I just simply agreed that old K-1 matches are sometimes shown on the ESPN2 and ESPNC channles. What does "running kickboxing down" mean?


You tend to try your best to make anything not TKD look like it has no influence, or at the very least that its influence is waning compared to TKD. You try to make one thing look worse to make another look better.


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## NPTKD (Aug 17, 2009)

Hey,  LOL!


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## dancingalone (Aug 17, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> you know there is a lot to be said about a person who has a great vocabulary! I feel you do a great job of hidding your message in your posts.



You know what they saw about attributing to others characteristics you may have yourself... I think I've been crystal clear about my feelings about sport TKD.  I'm not sugarcoating anything.

So were you the anonymous person who left me a neg?  Fess up whoever did it.  I don't mind the ding, but doing it anonymously without a comment about why you're dinging me is a bit cowardly.

As for the compliment on my vocabulary, thanks.  I'd show you my even better math skills but this is the wrong forum for it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 17, 2009)

ATC said:


> Just watche the video as I am at home now. That was great. The highlights for the clip were choosen perfectly. It really showed a mixture of MA styles. Nice MT knees, and you can clearly see that his kicking is more advanced than most MMA fighters. You can see he also has some wrestling skills as well. With the kicking you can see the cleaness of the kicking techiques. I would guess or assume that this person has some TMA training more than just the basic that a lot of MMA fighter have. Reason being it that a back spinning kick (spining heel or wheel kick as some call it) was done with pretty good technique. Many that I see attempt this kick with only kickboxing or MMA training only throw this kick with really poor technique thus removing the power, snap and speed of the kick. Looks like a true MMA fighter. I say that because the term MMA means Mixed Martial Arts. I see to many that really don't have a any real experience with TMA training other than basics.
> 
> Thanks for the Video.
> 
> Is this guy out of your studio?


 
The fighter is out of London Shoot but I know the guys there, the chap who made the highlight is a friend of mine, his day job is working on special effects for films such as XMen. Marios himself is a lovely guy. 
As I said before the majority of our fighters here come from a TMA background, we don't have the school wrestling background so the grappling side here is mostly Judo or BJJ. We have fighters whose core style is TKD such as Rosi Sexton who fought in Bodog in America and is fighting across there again soon, we have fighters with CMA backgrounds and karateka such as Neil Grove who had to complete the 30 man kumite for his blackbelt.
I've lost count of the fights I've watched over the years, must be hundreds and now ref pro fights but the majority of them I have seen good kicks and punches made in what people would call the traditional style, this isn't just the British fighters but the European ones as well, I've said before that I think American and European MMA is different. 
The fighters from my club have strong MT skills, they go to Thailand every year as well as strong TMA, my core style is Wado Ryu my instructors Shotokan and Judo as well as us teaching TSD. Their ground style is Judo and BJJ. We also do Aikido and will take anything else anyone in the club has that works. My instructor and I have both studied TKD as some time, we were both military and moved around a lot so took whatever style was available where we were as your core style is not always available. the majoirty of our club members are also military, those that are civilian are dependants of the military.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 25, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Taekwondo in the 2016 Olympic Games
> 
> Dear beloved Taekwondo Family, WTF Council Members, and Presidents of
> WTF Member National Association:
> ...


I am going to buck the trend and say something positive about it.

Congrats to those involved! This is certainly great news to the WTF!

I have stated my thoughts on the WTF ruleset before (not my cup of tea), so no need to belabor the point. I do respect the hard work and effort that goes into making it to that level, and for those who are into sport TKD, this is indeed great news.

The biggest issue that I see with taekwondo in the olympics is that I have a very low opinion of the IOC and feel that once one is in bed with them, they will have a controling interest in what you do. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is how I feel.

As to the rule set itself, you either like it or you do not. Earlier in this thread, I saw "Olympic TKD" referred to kickboxing. I see it more in the vein of foot fencing. In fact, I see taekwondo going very much in the same direction that sport fencing has gone. This is not good or bad; it is what it is.

I disagree that it makes taekwondo a laughing stock. I think that McDojo-ism is a much greater culpit in this, and is not limited to taekwondo, by the way.

Anyway, thank you for posting this, Mangoman.

Daniel


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## ATC (Aug 25, 2009)

Marginal said:


> You tend to try your best to make anything not TKD look like it has no influence, or at the very least that its influence is waning compared to TKD. You try to make one thing look worse to make another look better.


More babble I guess. I have no idea what you are talking about.


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## Cirdan (Aug 26, 2009)

Olympic TKD is the laughing stock of the MA community and increasingly the sports community. However I never did care about the public`s perception of the arts or arts created specifically to that effect. Proper instruction is increasingly hard to find but I do believe the few persons that still really want to learn will find their way to it.


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## Gorilla (Aug 26, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Olympic TKD is the laughing stock of the MA community and increasingly the sports community. However I never did care about the public`s perception of the arts or arts created specifically to that effect. Proper instruction is increasingly hard to find but I do believe the few persons that still really want to learn will find their way to it.



I was just at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for the U24 team trails and the Junior National Team Trails...I spoke with TC Dantzler 2008 Olympian in wrestling we had a long conversation while one of our athletes was cutting weight.  He expressed a admiration for TKD athletes he mentioned that he had known Barb Kunkel, the Lopez's Tim Thackrey and many more.  He stated that the speed, athleticism and work ethic of the TKD athlete is at the level of any sport.  He also stated that he has watched several matches of the years and has seen some brutal knock outs.  The speed and power of Sport TKD is better appreciated in person.

I was watching the match between Tanner Creel and Jayson Ishida.  It was one of the most brutal KO's I have ever seen it sounded like a BB bat being broken.  A kind of hybrid kick cross between a spin hook and a jump back-Kick.  Three boxers were sitting next to me.  When they stopped jumping up and down I heard comments like I did not know that these guys kicked that hard and wow was that fast.

This was hardly anything to be ashamed of!!!!  The Elite athletes understand what it takes to compete at a world class level and can appreciate the dedication and effort that is need to be the best!!!!

Those who make comments about Sport TKD is a joke are more than likely not world class at anything!!!!


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## d1jinx (Aug 26, 2009)

disagree disagree disagree.... i disagree because i disagree.... negative negative negative.... blah blah blah....

Some people like to disagree for arguments sake or to tell you how wrong you are for not doing it thier way....  

you have to respect anyone who excells at what they do....

an TAI CHI is the laughing stock of MA.. not tkd... we kick people.... they Breathe on them.... slowly...  lol.... joking tai chi people... joking....


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

I think people need to get over this thing about people being jealous of *Olympic* TKD which most of us don't regard as the same thing as sport TKD.
Sport TKD is entertaining and exciting when staged properly, this is how it should be in the Olympics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7taxMwrraA&feature=related

Zelg fights over here in MMA and has had some good scalps under his belt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w5cxP0eZcOA&feature=fvw


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## ATC (Aug 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think people need to get over this thing about people being jealous of *Olympic* TKD which most of us don't regard as the same thing as sport TKD.
> Sport TKD is entertaining and exciting when staged properly, this is how it should be in the Olympics.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7taxMwrraA&feature=related
> ...


Ha ha ha...I thought at the end of the second video it was going the say "Special Thanks to...TEZ3" That would have been funny.


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think people need to get over this thing about people being jealous of *Olympic* TKD which most of us don't regard as the same thing as sport TKD.
> Sport TKD is entertaining and exciting when staged properly, this is how it should be in the Olympics.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7taxMwrraA&feature=related
> ...


 

Tez to me the first video is more like kickboxing is, we have a pro circuit here in the states, it is located in California they do not even wear gloves great stuff. Funny there is no market for it here like in alot of other countries.


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## Tez3 (Aug 26, 2009)

ATC said:


> Ha ha ha...I thought at the end of the second video it was going the say "Special Thanks to...TEZ3" That would have been funny.


 
LOL I'm doing my best to promote UK fighters, Zelg would be great in the UFC!

I hope people do see the distinction a lot of us are making between sport and Olympic TKD. 
I know Zelg's fight does look like kickboxing perhaps but a couple of rule changes perhaps would sort that out. The problem is that many want a safe sport for the Olympics, they don't want KO's not even in boxing. They want entertainment that will encourage people to watch on television and also watch the ads that make the Olympics committee so much money.
Gymnastics is a crowd pleaser, pretty, slim girls and good looking fit men doing techniques that make you gasp (like the circus), it's safe, competitive and very photogenic so they've made TKD the same way.They don't really want to see blood all over the place, when there is the commentators are full of distaste, after all people won't send their children to train if it's actually 'fighting'.  It doesn't do any of us any favours.

I think perhaps in America, which brought us political correctness btw lol, full contact martial sports aren't as encouraged or enjoyed the way they are here. I know you have boxing and MMA is getting a toehold but I think both sports would be banned if a lot of people had their way.


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## Gorilla (Aug 26, 2009)

I like this type of stuff...and I agree he would be great in the UFC...this is apples and oranges when compared to Olympic "Sport" TKD...some of the Olympic Style Tkd athletes would do well


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I was just at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for the U24 team trails and the Junior National Team Trails...I spoke with TC Dantzler 2008 Olympian in wrestling we had a long conversation while one of our athletes was cutting weight. He expressed a admiration for TKD athletes he mentioned that he had known Barb Kunkel, the Lopez's Tim Thackrey and many more. He stated that the speed, athleticism and work ethic of the TKD athlete is at the level of any sport. He also stated that he has watched several matches of the years and has seen some brutal knock outs. The speed and power of Sport TKD is better appreciated in person.
> 
> I was watching the match between Tanner Creel and Jayson Ishida. It was one of the most brutal KO's I have ever seen it sounded like a BB bat being broken. A kind of hybrid kick cross between a spin hook and a jump back-Kick. Three boxers were sitting next to me. When they stopped jumping up and down I heard comments like I did not know that these guys kicked that hard and wow was that fast.
> 
> ...


 
Using four exclamation points doesn`t make you world class either. Tho considering the focus on flashy bs in some circles I can see why you might think otherwise.

That olympic TKD got speed, atletecism and power does not save it from being a total joke and the technically mangled commercialized remains of a once proud art.

Then again as I`ve already said I am not too concerned about the way the sports side of the arts are taking. It actually might benefit the community as after getting back on their feet from nearly dying of laughter watching the olympic games, the public might think twice about joining a mcdoco doing all that flashy stuff and slapping a black piece of cloth on you faster than you can sign the "guaranteed BB" contract.


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I like this type of stuff...and I agree he would be great in the UFC...this is apples and oranges when compared to Olympic "Sport" TKD...some of the Olympic Style Tkd athletes would do well


 
Zelg is a TKD champion but not at the Olympic stuff. Sport TKD athlete would do well but not the Olympic style, they can't fight.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> I was just at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs for the U24 team trails and the Junior National Team Trails...I spoke with TC Dantzler 2008 Olympian in wrestling we had a long conversation while one of our athletes was cutting weight. He expressed a admiration for TKD athletes he mentioned that he had known Barb Kunkel, the Lopez's Tim Thackrey and many more. He stated that the speed, athleticism and work ethic of the TKD athlete is at the level of any sport. He also stated that he has watched several matches of the years and has seen some brutal knock outs. The speed and power of Sport TKD is better appreciated in person.
> 
> I was watching the match between Tanner Creel and Jayson Ishida. It was one of the most brutal KO's I have ever seen it sounded like a BB bat being broken. A kind of hybrid kick cross between a spin hook and a jump back-Kick. Three boxers were sitting next to me. When they stopped jumping up and down I heard comments like I did not know that these guys kicked that hard and wow was that fast.
> 
> ...


The last comment assumes that one must be world class in order to evaluate what they see, and this is not the case.  Attempting to marginalize those who disagree with you in this manner does nothing to make your case stronger.

There are individuals who are wholly opposed to the ruleset based entirely on the fact that it has truncated the martial art of Taekwondo to such a degree that training in the traditional art has almost no value for a competitor in the sport and that training in the sport has almost no value to a traditional practitioner.

The divide is great enough that in looking at the two, I must ask, "will the real Taekwondo please stand up?"

Once again, I am not of the opinion that that the WTF rule set is a joke or that that style of sparring is without value.  But I also see the perspective of those who do not like the rule set or the direction that the WTF is taking.  

At the rate things are going, I am pretty confident that by the middle of this century, taekwondo will have completely gone the rout of sport fencing, with the traditional schools becoming a shrinking minority.  Whether or not this is good or bad depends greatly on one's perspective.

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Aug 27, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> TAI CHI is the laughing stock of MA.. not tkd... we kick people.... they Breathe on them.... slowly... lol.... joking tai chi people... joking....


 
One Chi ball...heading your way.


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## Gorilla (Aug 27, 2009)

*The last comment assumes that one must be world class in order to evaluate what they see, and this is not the case. Attempting to marginalize those who disagree with you in this manner does nothing to make your case stronger.*

No it does not assumee that you must be world class to make an evaluation.  I am not a world class athlete!!! It does assume that anyone who would call my martial art a joke( which absolutely marginalizes sport tkd) is not world class at anything not just a sport.  I am only marginalizing those who would degrade sport tkd as a joke. If you just disagree fine but have enough class not to call it a joke (or a laughing stock whatever the case may be).


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## Gorilla (Aug 27, 2009)

TEZ3...You are concerned about how may exclamation points that I use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again calling "Olympic Style" Sport TKD a joke is classless.  Disagree all that you want!!!!!!!!! Make your case fine!!!!!!

I am world class at exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> *TEZ3...You are concerned about how may exclamation points that I use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> Again calling "Olympic Style" Sport TKD a joke is classless. Disagree all that you want!!!!!!!!! Make your case fine!!!!!!
> 
> I am world class at exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 

Am I? Wasn't me that that made comments about your exclamation marks, it was Cirdan.
I didn't say it was a joke either, I don't think it is, I think it's sad.


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## Gorilla (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Zelg is a TKD champion but not at the Olympic stuff. Sport TKD athlete would do well but not the Olympic style, *they can't fight.*




Bold statement "they can't fight"....Assumes allot!!!! and Marginalizes many!!!

Not even close to true!!!!!


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> [/b]
> 
> Bold statement "they can't fight"....Assumes allot!!!! and Marginalizes many!!!
> 
> Not even close to true!!!!!


 

then prove they can fight.

And you might want to apologise for mistaking me for another poster.


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## dancingalone (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I think people need to get over this thing about people being jealous of *Olympic* TKD which most of us don't regard as the same thing as sport TKD.
> Sport TKD is entertaining and exciting when staged properly, this is how it should be in the Olympics.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7taxMwrraA&feature=related
> ...



I like this myself.  I would like to see some rules added to discourage excessive clinches though.  This fight was fine, but I could see a match having too much hugging if the fighters are tired or if one is overmatched.


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I like this myself. I would like to see some rules added to discourage excessive clinches though. This fight was fine, but I could see a match having too much hugging if the fighters are tired or if one is overmatched.


 

I agree, it's one of the things that does make it more like boxing and some types of kickboxing so should be changed. The rules could limit clinches to a couple of seconds or not have them at all.
I like the combativeness of the fights that's lacking in the Olympic stuff.


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> TEZ3...You are concerned about how may exclamation points that I use!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Again calling "Olympic Style" Sport TKD a joke is classless. Disagree all that you want!!!!!!!!! Make your case fine!!!!!!
> 
> I am world class at exclamation points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
That was me, not Tez. Perhaps if you spent a few more seconds reading the actual post instead of typing shift+1 repeatedly you would get it right, eh?

Olympic TKD is a joke because it is not TKD, it is not a martial art and even as a sport it is too boring to deserve a place in the olympics.
If my lineage was closer to TKD I would probably feel sad too.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> *The last comment assumes that one must be world class in order to evaluate what they see, and this is not the case. Attempting to marginalize those who disagree with you in this manner does nothing to make your case stronger.*
> 
> No it does not assumee that you must be world class to make an evaluation. I am not a world class athlete!!! It does assume that anyone who would call my martial art a joke( which absolutely marginalizes sport tkd) is not world class at anything not just a sport.


Nor does this strengthen your case. 



Gorilla said:


> I am only marginalizing those who would degrade sport tkd as a joke. If you just disagree fine but have enough class not to call it a joke (or a laughing stock whatever the case may be).


While I do not consider the WTF rule set a joke, you might want to look at why some consider it as such. 

Unfortunately, some of those people have very compelling arguements that are supported by demonstrable facts, not just passion for what they like. 

And a good number of those individuals were involved in taekwondo long before it was an olympic event.

I do not agree with the assessment that WTF sport taekwondo is a joke or a laughing stock. I feel that that is incorrect. But the underlying arguements that they make have some very valid points.

Daniel


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## ATC (Aug 27, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Olympic TKD is a joke because it is not TKD, it is not a martial art and even as a sport it is too boring to deserve a place in the olympics.
> If my lineage was closer to TKD I would probably feel sad too.


This is just your opinion. There are many that don't agree with you.


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

ATC said:


> This is just your opinion.


 
No really? Who else`s opinion would it be?



> There are many that don't agree with you.


 
Pretty obvious too.


Anyway my opinion, such at is is, is based on the following facts:

Fact 1: Olympic TKD is far far removed from the old school version of the art. Those two has as little in common as a medieval knight and an entertainer juggling chainsaws.

Fact 2: a LOT of people were utterly disappointed by how boring the TKD "fights" in the olympics were.

Take it as you will. Even if I think it is a joke I don`t really care if it stays in the olympics or not. Either way it has little impact on what I train and do.


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## ATC (Aug 27, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> No really? Who else`s opinion would it be?


Just wanted it to be clear.


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2009)

ATC said:


> Just wanted it to be clear.


 

Any more penetrating insights to share?


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## ATC (Aug 27, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Any more penetrating insights to share?


No, I think my opinions were clearly stated.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Anyway my opinion, such at is is, is based on the following facts:
> 
> Fact 1: Olympic TKD is far far removed from the old school version of the art. Those two has as little in common as a medieval knight and an entertainer juggling chainsaws.


How about as little in common as a medieval knight and a sport fencer?  That would be more accurate.

As far as 'old school' vs. 'Olympic TKD', Olympic TKD is not Olympic, sport taekwondo under the WTF rule set occurring in the venue that is the olympics, and has been around since the early seventies at least, and comes out of the Jidokwan, so it is not exactly new.  In fact at this point, it is pretty old school in and of itself at this point.

The major difference is that it is not 'traditional', nor is it supposed to be.  It was designed to differentiate taekwondo from Shotokan and to be a unique martial sport.  It is also designed to emphasize and reward the more challenging act of kicking high and rapidly, which is certainly harder to do than punching high and rapidly.

Ultimately, it was the decision of the KKW/WTF to showcase taekwondo's kicks in tournament, rather than hand techniques.  Given that open karate tournaments that tend to be more handsy already existed, I think that it was a good move; nothing prevents a handsy TKDist from participating in open karate tournaments so far as I know, so those who prefer that style of tournament already have an existing venue.



Cirdan said:


> Fact 2: a LOT of people were utterly disappointed by how boring the TKD "fights" in the olympics were.


Boring?  Come on now, the action was so intense that even the judges were getting kicked!

From what I saw the matches were not what I would have expected for athletes at that level.  Some years, the olympics are more exciting than others, some years less, depending on the sport.

Daniel


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## ATC (Aug 27, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How about as little in common as a medieval knight and a sport fencer? That would be more accurate.
> 
> As far as 'old school' vs. 'Olympic TKD', Olympic TKD is not Olympic, sport taekwondo under the WTF rule set occurring in the venue that is the olympics, and has been around since the early seventies at least, and comes out of the Jidokwan, so it is not exactly new. In fact at this point, it is pretty old school in and of itself at this point.
> 
> ...


Ding ding ding ding....What do we have here? A moderate?! Come on dude...get off the fence and join a side
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





....Just kidding. Good points.


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## terryl965 (Aug 27, 2009)

All I know is this, sport TKD is just that a sport with rules and judges scoring, the principle is the same that you will find in every sport score more than your opponet and you win. It takes alot of committment for young childern as well as adult to train everyday 3-6 hours. In most sport you have a chance for a scolarship or even the pro or semi pro to make some money but it Olympic TKD all these athlete know there chance of making it to the Olympics is worst than hitting the lottery and still they train. Please do not get me wrong here but in any sport there is monatary gain somewhere down the pipeline but not Olympic TKD except if you are one of four athletes for that year.

I love TKD and I mean old school for some they understand for others they have no clue but I have become a fan of Olympic TKD for what it is a sport, my sons enjoy and alot of my people do it. I do have my traditional class but people bad mouth it but yet it is everywhere, why simple it is something the family as a whole can do together even gym membership will not let childern under the age of 13 to left wieghts, so the public grabbed these and it took off. My only sinble problem is when some instructor try and pass some of this a s a SD base sport it is not, SD is brutal and we only have survivals not a winner. Let all try and remember not everybody is the same when it comes toan art but we all should have been tought by our instructors to be respectful of those in the arts not matter sport or art.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2009)

ATC said:


> Ding ding ding ding....What do we have here? A moderate?! Come on dude...get off the fence and join a side
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am pretty neutral on the subject.  

So long as those who train strictly for sport are made aware that it is a sport and not misled into thinking that they are getting practical SD, no harm no foul.  

Not my cup of tea, but I respect the athleticism and the work that goes into being successful in the sport venue.

Daniel


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## Twin Fist (Aug 27, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am pretty neutral on the subject.
> 
> So long as those who train strictly for sport are made aware that it is a sport and not misled into thinking that they are getting practical SD, no harm no foul.
> 
> ...




this


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2009)

· "*Olympic-level competition Taekwondo today is considered one of the* *finest self-defence martial arts*, and is practised at championship level in more than 150 countries." 
http://www.olympics.org.uk/sporttechdetails.aspx?gt=s&sp=TK

From the British Olympic site. It's being promoted as a SD art. Precisely what it's not. This is why so many of us are annoyed at Olympic TKD.


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## ATC (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> · "*Olympic-level competition Taekwondo today is considered one of the* *finest self-defence martial arts*, and is practised at championship level in more than 150 countries."
> http://www.olympics.org.uk/sporttechdetails.aspx?gt=s&sp=TK
> 
> From the British Olympic site. It's being promoted as a SD art. Precisely what it's not. This is why so many of us are annoyed at Olympic TKD.


Someone not educated published a very bad definition. Shame on them. But it is on an Olympic site. So not to much harm can be done. The USA Olympic site seems to have more educated people trying to explain things. http://usa-taekwondo.us/content/index/5987


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## Gorilla (Aug 27, 2009)

Tez3....Why would I have to prove anything to you!!!!

And why would I apologize to anyone on this BBS!!!!!!!! It appears that you have the same opinion!!!! Olympic Sport TKD Sucks !!!!! They can't fight!!!!!! It is very hard to tell the difference between posts....I don't disparage what you do I very much admire all the martial arts....I admire the SD aspect and the sport aspect of martial arts...I much prefer the Self Defense aspects of Martial Arts....My kids do sport tkd and I have become a fan...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 27, 2009)

It is not a question of whether or not they can fight.  Some probably can defend themselves very well.

The big factor is that sport TKD is often presented as being self defense, when it is not.  The same is true of BJJ.  Both have techniques that cross over with SD, but neither are truly SD by themselves.  Both have merit in their own light.  

As for the WTF rule set sucking, that is a question of personal taste.  I would rather watch WTF sport TKD than most programed television.  Some people prefer the WWE.  Go figure.

Daniel


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## Cirdan (Aug 28, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How about as little in common as a medieval knight and a sport fencer? That would be more accurate.


 
Perhaps it would be if fencing rules favored striking at the toes...




> The major difference is that it is not 'traditional', nor is it supposed to be. It was designed to differentiate taekwondo from Shotokan and to be a unique martial sport. It is also designed to emphasize and reward the more challenging act of kicking high and rapidly, which is certainly harder to do than punching high and rapidly.
> 
> Ultimately, it was the decision of the KKW/WTF to showcase taekwondo's kicks in tournament, rather than hand techniques.


 
Indeed. Since it has left behind any traces of a traditional system it would be better if it took a more appropriate name too, like RythmicHeadKicking. 



> Boring? Come on now, the action was so intense that even the judges were getting kicked!


 
Yeah, we want more of that don`t we? Public perception: not only do they play a kid`s game but they behave like kids too.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

Gorilla said:


> Tez3....Why would I have to prove anything to you!!!!
> 
> And why would I apologize to anyone on this BBS!!!!!!!! It appears that you have the same opinion!!!! Olympic Sport TKD Sucks !!!!! They can't fight!!!!!! It is very hard to tell the difference between posts....I don't disparage what you do I very much admire all the martial arts....I admire the SD aspect and the sport aspect of martial arts...I much prefer the Self Defense aspects of Martial Arts....My kids do sport tkd and I have become a fan...


 

You may not disparage what I do but plenty of people do because they think what I do is the Olympic TKD.

ATC, so it's alright because it's on the _British_ Olympic site? The WTF web address is also on the same page so I assume they approve of what was written. As I've said a few times now British perception of Olympic TKD and TKD as a whole has been badly damaged by the goings on at the Olympics. It seems that the British competitors who were in Beijing may not even be looking to compete in London, their home crowd, because of what went on there. Confidence in it as a sport has been damaged, it's not as though it was just one incident, there were many.









This is the kick that left the Chinese girls mouth cut and bruised but the judges 'missed.

"As a capacity crowd at the Beijing science and technology gym deliriously celebrated their heroines win, tearful Stevenson was inconsolable."

Yes it was overturned and oh the criticism of the British team for that! They went against an agreement seemingly that TKD don't question the judging but this was the second British competitor to have had this happen and enough was enough the British team spoke up and have been damned for it but they were doing the right thing. It didn't only happen to the British either, even the commentators here who weren't MA could see things were wrong.

Sorry no, for many things Olympic TKD has lost all credibility with the public as well as many martial artists. We could perhaps overlook the 'dancing' but to have it described as SD and the 'total' art and then have crorrupt judging is too much. TKD is a great art with great people doing it but this does them a huge disservice.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

Cirdan said:


> Perhaps it would be if fencing rules favored striking at the toes...


 
Only one of the three fencing weapons allows this, and it receives the least attention of the three.  Foil and Sabre are both subjected to the Ed Sullivan treatment: nothing below the waist.  Only Epee allows strikes below the waist.  Foil is torso only and sabre is anything from the waist up except the back of the head.

In any case, my analogy was less of a comparison of technique than it is a comparison of the direction of the sport and its deviation from classical practice.



Cirdan said:


> Indeed. Since it has left behind any traces of a traditional system it would be better if it took a more appropriate name too, like RythmicHeadKicking.


 
I have heard Tae-do suggested here, but a name change is highly unlikely.  The major shortcoming is that the olympics does not have a poomsae section for Taekwondo.  Regular WTF tournaments have sparring, poomsae, and breaking, so the whole of the art is better represented.



Cirdan said:


> Yeah, we want more of that don`t we? Public perception: not only do they play a kid`s game but they behave like kids too.


That was kind of my point, thus the sarcasm of my comment.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You may not disparage what I do but plenty of people do because they think what I do is the Olympic TKD.
> 
> ATC, so it's alright because it's on the _British_ Olympic site? The WTF web address is also on the same page so I assume they approve of what was written. As I've said a few times now British perception of Olympic TKD and TKD as a whole has been badly damaged by the goings on at the Olympics. It seems that the British competitors who were in Beijing may not even be looking to compete in London, their home crowd, because of what went on there. Confidence in it as a sport has been damaged, it's not as though it was just one incident, there were many.
> 
> ...


As I recall, Taekwondo was not the only sport that suffered from judging biases in the 2008 olympics.  And in any case, much of what you describe has more to do with the olympics being corrupt in general than with sport taekwondo.  Remember the figure skating scandal a few years back?  This nonsense is pervasive in the olympics.  

Honestly, my main opposition to taekwondo being in the olympics is the IOC.  The olympics are nothing more than nationalistic bragadocio, political grandstanding, favor trading, bribery, and graft with athletes distracting the general public from the corrupt and shameful goings on.

Daniel


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## d1jinx (Aug 28, 2009)

What did you expect they had to give the home town team a win. Its no different in TKD than any other sport. I watched a boxing match last weekend between Juan Diaz and Pauli Malignaggi and it was no different. It was a close fight but I had Malignaggi winning the fight as well did Harold Ledderman. But Diaz won. This wasnt the issue. Like I said it was a close fight.  The issue was the scores. UNBELIEVABLE. 2 of the judges were from Texas and guess what... they had the fight no where close with Diaz winning by a landslide. Even the commentators were saying how ridiculous it was. 



> *HBO:*
> Diaz was fighting before a hometown crowd and, as Malignaggi had feared, that might have been the difference.
> 
> In closing the curtain on an entertaining HBO Boxing After Dark tripleheader, Diaz (35-2, 17 KOs) pulled out a 12-round unanimous decision that put the three-time former lightweight champion back on track in pursuit of another world title.
> ...


 
Pauli Blasted Boxing and the Judges saying " Boxing is a bunch of bulls***" "I hate boxing"... " This wasnt a sore looser speaking this was a person who had every right to think that way and I am glad someone finally spoke out about it on live TV during the fight. He didnt hold back and he was right. The judging is corrupt... 
Boxing has been BS for years and it needs to change.

And guess what... he's screwed because they will Blackball him... he wont get any big fights or money,  shame to, he's fun to watch. 

I guess my point is.....
unfair judging and favortism isn't just in TKD... it probably more rememberable because an event that big is only happens once every 4 years and only to a very small select few....

But corruption is everywhere. I'm glad the Brits spoke out about the match at the olympics... good for you guys...


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

The perception is that many sports in the Olympics are 'dodgy' if not down right dishonest but while the principle should worry us all it's the fact that TKD is closer to home for many of us that causes us to worry more. The skating scandals shouldn't affect how people see martial arts but the fact is that in the UK at least the Olympic goings on in TKD have adversely portrayed TKD and by association the rest of martial arts here. 

I wouldn't expect a 'home team win' to be the priority of judges. I would expect more integrity and honesty from martial artists. Naive perhaps but surely not totally unrealistic.

I think the British team may pay dearly yet for their objection, they've broken agreements and we'll have to see how that pans out.


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## miguksaram (Aug 28, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am pretty neutral on the subject.
> 
> So long as those who train strictly for sport are made aware that it is a sport and not misled into thinking that they are getting practical SD, no harm no foul.


 
Since this thread is just basicly turning into the likes of almost all other threads on here.  I'd thought I'd ask the standard question to a statement like this.

Since boxing is a sport would you say boxing is not practical self defense?  How about wrestling (no not the WWF)?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> Since this thread is just basicly turning into the likes of almost all other threads on here. I'd thought I'd ask the standard question to a statement like this.
> 
> Since boxing is a sport would you say boxing is not practical self defense? How about wrestling (no not the WWF)?


Boxing, MMA, wrestling, and WTF sport taekwondo are all sports who's skills have some application in SD but are not SD in and of themselves. None of the above contain techniques for dealing with armed attackers and each eliminates a specified portion of attacks that are practical against an attacker but would be inappropriate in a sports context.

WTF sport TKD differs from boxing, MMA, and wrestling in that it focuses on a skill set (high kicking) that is not intuitive for most people and which is *generally* considered a no-no in practical SD. A boxer, for example, will not lose a degree of footing in the act of throwing punches, nor will the boxer open up their groin area with a punch the way that one does with a high kick.

A high kick, timed well, and used appropriately can end an attack very nicely, so to say that WTF sport TKD has no skills that can be used in SD would be inaccurate. Also, WTF sport TKD incorporates dodging and blocking, both of which are useful for self protection. Lastly, it requires a level of conditioning that is likewise helpful in surviving an attack. What few punches are involved in WTF rules are ones that can be executed without major injury to one's hands, as all of them are torso punches, ideally to the solar plexus.

In fact, the biggest no-no that a victim can do is to not fight back. If the victim fights, even if they are untrained, they increase their chances of survival. A sport TKDist coming out of the gate at an unarmed mugger as if he or she were in the final round of the grand championships would probably scare scare the would be mugger into soiling himself.

But it is still a sport and if that is what you train for, you are not training for SD. If you train for SD in addition to sport, so much the better. 

Daniel


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## miguksaram (Aug 28, 2009)

> WTF sport TKD differs from boxing, MMA, and wrestling in that it focuses on a skill set (high kicking) that is not intuitive for most people and which is *generally* considered a no-no in practical SD. A boxer, for example, will not lose a degree of footing in the act of throwing punches, nor will the boxer open up their groin area with a punch the way that one does with a high kick.


 
While I can agree that high kicking is not practical, who said that you had to kick high all the time?  If I train myself to do high kicking, then wouldn't it be suffice to say that I can throw that same kick just as fast, if not faster, to a lower target with just as much, if not more, power?

I guess my point is that boxing, MMA, TKD or Judo may not be an end all be all type of SD, and they all have their pros and cons about them, but they can be used for SD.  There was a statement I read earlier, I forget who posted it, that eluded that sport TKD fighters can not fight well outside their sport.  

While it may be true for some, to say that as a blanket statement about all TKD fighters is incorrect.  Just becuase some do not choose to fight in different venues or on the streeet doesn't mean they can't.


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## ATC (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You may not disparage what I do but plenty of people do because they think what I do is the Olympic TKD.


I am sure that there are some that think this just as some think TMA and MMA are the same and vice a versa. But to tell you the truth Olympic TKD does not get that much attention to really make a difference. I bet more people think that TKD and MMA are more alike. Most people don't even now what TKD or that TKD is even a MA. Just about every person that comes by the dojang states something like this, "Look Billy, they are doing Karate". Or you may hear this, "So how long have you been doing Karate". I really just think you are focusing too much on nothing. Yeah you may have gotten a few off remarks or comments but I bet you have also have gotten much more in your favor because of other MA's as well.




> ATC, so it's alright because it's on the _British_ Olympic site? The WTF web address is also on the same page so I assume they approve of what was written.


My comment was in jest.




> As I've said a few times now British perception of Olympic TKD and TKD as a whole has been badly damaged by the goings on at the Olympics. It seems that the British competitors who were in Beijing may not even be looking to compete in London, their home crowd, because of what went on there. Confidence in it as a sport has been damaged, it's not as though it was just one incident, there were many.


Well the British need to suck it up. If they got there knickers all in a bunch because of some suspect judging at one event then maybe they don't need to compete at the next Olympics. What happened to them has happened to many others, many times over. Be mad for awhile then get over it. Use the experience to make you better. Knock out your opponent next time and take it out of the judges hands. Hell, my kid was robbed at a few events. Once where the table judge (the TA as they are called) came and apologized to me personally. But there was nothing that he could do to change things. As they say "**** happens" The British need to get over it.



> This is the kick that left the Chinese girls mouth cut and bruised but the judges 'missed.


**** happens. Do you know how the scoring system works in a TKD match. You have to have minimum of 3 out of 4 judges all press a button with in 1 second. So that means that if you get all 4 judges seeing the point but for some reason 2 press the button for that point and then 1 second later the other 2 press for the same point, guess what?, no point. Now the center ref if he sees the point can stop the match and call all the judges to the center and ask only this question, did you see (color) score? He cannot ask did you see (color) score with an ax kick, or a roundhouse or whatever. He can only ask did you see (color) score. If only 2 of the 4 say they saw it then, no point. If 3 of 4 or all saw it, then the point(s) are given. Even if the center ref saw the point clearly, but 2 of the 4 corner judges did not see it, then there is no point given, regardless if it actually scored. Messed up I know. But those are the rules. Now the center ref can override the corner judges if he likes, but that will never happen.

So again "**** happens". It is time to get over it.



> "As a capacity crowd at the Beijing science and technology gym deliriously celebrated their heroines win, tearful Stevenson was inconsolable."
> 
> Yes it was overturned and oh the criticism of the British team for that! They went against an agreement seemingly that TKD don't question the judging but this was the second British competitor to have had this happen and enough was enough the British team spoke up and have been damned for it but they were doing the right thing. It didn't only happen to the British either, even the commentators here who weren't MA could see things were wrong.


Ditto what I stated directly above this. Also I am glad to see the protest process worked. It got overturned. That is why there is a protest process. And in the case it worked. So what's your beef? Just because 99 people out of 100 see something, it may be that 1 that did not see it responsibility to see. Guess what he blinked and missed it. Be glad that they have a protest process, which is what it is for.

Look, this crying and blaming one Olympics for all the wrong in a sport is crazy. It happens to everyone. I am positive that there is not one competitor in TKD that has not be robbed of a win by bad judging, not one. Get over it. It really sounds like a bunch of whining.



> Sorry no, for many things Olympic TKD has lost all credibility with the public as well as many martial artists. We could perhaps overlook the 'dancing' but to have it described as SD and the 'total' art and then have crorrupt judging is too much. TKD is a great art with great people doing it but this does them a huge disservice.


Not true or there would be no one still doing it. Maybe for you but there are still way too many that enjoy it and want it for your statements to be true. 180+ countries with enough people doing and watching WTF rules TKD to prove you wrong. I am sorry but your statement is only true for you and some not all.


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## miguksaram (Aug 28, 2009)

> What happened to them has happened to many others, many times over. Be mad for awhile then get over it. Use the experience to make you better.


 
Sensei Sharkey has always told us that when you enter a tournament you have to see the invisible sign on the door that says "All judges are idiots", then smile and go enjoy yourself.  We teach are students that you have to put it all on the table and what happens, happens.  As long as you did your best that is all you can do within your control.  

In the end, both you and your opponent knows who really won regardless what the judges say.


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## d1jinx (Aug 28, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> In the end, both you and your opponent knows who really won regardless what the judges say.


 I agree with what you said.... but surprisingly some people really think they won... even when they didnt.  what world do they live in?  probably the same one as the ref's


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

ATC, you really make me laugh you know with your suck it up nonsense.
If you don't know what 'my beef' is by now clearly I must really need to spell it out.
Oh the British really need to suck it do they and you justify it by saying it happens all the time...! Well, there's an indictment of your sport. I really need to say no more need I? Cheating then is endemic in the Olympic sport of TKD.

Blaming the Olympics is totally correct as in the real world TKD is a damn good martial art, only in the Olympics has it been bastardised.

Knowing who 'really won' doesn't cut it when you are representing your country which has put a big investment into you, when your families have given blood sweat and tears so you can train to get to the Olympics and medals added to your countries total are a matter for national pride. Harsh but true.

What does saying all judges are idiots do for the image of your sport?

People here aren't stupid, they know the difference between TKD and MMA, what do you think we are a bunch of country yokels? And you'd be surprised how many actually know the difference between TKD and karate. We tend to advertise exactly what we do here not mix it up as TKD karate etc.

Btw us Brits don't wear 'panties'... such a twee word, women wear knickers, men wear pants or we go commando.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> While I can agree that high kicking is not practical, who said that you had to kick high all the time?


Never said that one would have to, but it only takes one attempt at a head shot to get your kicking leg grabbed your other leg swept.  In reality, it takes only one mistake.

And since I was speaking specifically of the sport and the techniques therein, you are kicking high all the time; there are no valid targets below the waist.  Just to clarify, I consider anything above the waist to be a high kick in an SD scenario.



miguksaram said:


> If I train myself to do high kicking, then wouldn't it be suffice to say that I can throw that same kick just as fast, if not faster, to a lower target with just as much, if not more, power?


Yes, but I was not evaluating what an individual may or may not do.  I was evaluating the sport.  I could give a 'yeah, but I do this...' answer for boxing, wrestling and MMA too, but at that point, we are no longer discussing the sport, but what individual athletes do outside of it.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 28, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I guess my point is that boxing, MMA, TKD or Judo may not be an end all be all type of SD, and they all have their pros and cons about them, but they can be used for SD. There was a statement I read earlier, I forget who posted it, that eluded that sport TKD fighters can not fight well outside their sport.


I think that it depends on the fighter. Some do, some do not. Same with boxers, judoka, MMA-ist, or whatever.



miguksaram said:


> While it may be true for some, to say that as a blanket statement about all TKD fighters is incorrect. Just becuase some do not choose to fight in different venues or on the streeet doesn't mean they can't.


I think that this notion comes from the high degree of specialization in kicks, specifically high kicks and the relative lack of hand techniques combined with the much ballyhooed low guard.

The thought is that you fight like you train and if you are highly competative in your sport, more than 90% of your training is going to be spent training in your sport, not in related studies or crosstraining. 

While this line of reasoning has some truth to it, I do not completely subscribe to it. I feel as you do, that a skilled sport TKDist is capable of adapting to other situations and taking advanatage of targets that would normally be off limits. Certainly, the kicking ability is definitely there and is solid. Hand techniques may be lacking, but if a sport TKDist is very good at the ones he *does* have, mainly blocks and straight punches, then he or she is likely better equipped than they get credit for.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 28, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> While I can agree that high kicking is not practical, who said that you had to kick high all the time?  If I train myself to do high kicking, then wouldn't it be suffice to say that I can throw that same kick just as fast, if not faster, to a lower target with just as much, if not more, power?


A lot of people seem to share this opinion.  I do not.  Consider the knee vs. the head.  The contact surface of each target is shaped differently and is of different size and different vantage point from a person facing another straight on.  It seems obvious to me that your kicking method will therefore also be different.

You get good at what you practice.  If you want to be competent at kicking the head, practice kicking the head.  If you want to be good at hitting a knee, practice kicking the knee.  Or do both.  But don't think that just because you are good at hitting the head, that means you are good elsewhere.  That's a fallacy.


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## ATC (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> ATC, you really make me laugh you know with your suck it up nonsense.
> If you don't know what 'my beef' is by now clearly I must really need to spell it out.


I do understand your beef but just don't think it is as relivant as you think. If everyone coming into your studio is thinking that what you do is Olympic TKD then the sport is really being marketed well. But we all know that there is hardly any marketing for TKD as a whole let alone Olympic TKD. I just don't think what you are building up is really there.



> Oh the British really need to suck it do they and you justify it by saying it happens all the time...! Well, there's an indictment of your sport. I really need to say no more need I? Cheating then is endemic in the Olympic sport of TKD.


Yes, they need to suck it up. Cheating goes on in every sport. Boxing, Football, Hockey, Basketball...you name it. Refs make bad calls all the time. Even when it is obvious that the call was bad. You don't see people over reacting by saying that the sport is no good and it needs to be done away with because of it. No they cuss the ref. Or they cuss the corruption not the sport. But they get over it and play the next week too. And the spectators watch the next week as well.



> Blaming the Olympics is totally correct as in the real world TKD is a damn good martial art, only in the Olympics has it been bastardised.


Hate to tell you this...but the sport was around before it was in the Olympics. The Olympics did not create the sport.



> Knowing who 'really won' doesn't cut it when you are representing your country which has put a big investment into you, when your families have given blood sweat and tears so you can train to get to the Olympics and medals added to your countries total are a matter for national pride. Harsh but true.


Hey this has been happening for years across all sports and to all nations at one time or another. The british are not the only ones. You can dwell on it or you can get over it and move on. You have that choice. I bet there are still British TKD practitioners still practicing for the next Olympics. Bet they are not sitting in there tears wasting energy crying over someting that is over. If anything they will use that as motivation to help make them better. Not quit the sport.



> What does saying all judges are idiots do for the image of your sport?


Who said that? Who said all judges that judge TKD are idiots? It only takes one. Look at what I wrote about how a match is judged. You need 3 out of 4 to all score togeather. Well have just one so called idiot judge and it makes it hard. 2 can see one may be out of position to see and the one idiot keeps the judging at 2 out of 4. No point. You clearly have 3 good judges but having just one bad one make it a all or nothing game.



> People here aren't stupid, they know the difference between TKD and MMA, what do you think we are a bunch of country yokels? And you'd be surprised how many actually know the difference between TKD and karate. We tend to advertise exactly what we do here not mix it up as TKD karate etc.


There are stupid people all around. Yes people are stupid, here as well as there, everywhere.



> Btw us Brits don't wear 'panties'... such a twee word, women wear knickers, men wear pants or we go commando.


Thanks for the clarification.


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## mango.man (Aug 28, 2009)

You find me an Olympic sport, that is scored / judged by humans, that has never had accusations of cheating / corrupt judging by the humans in charge of scoring.  

Judging in TKD is near perfect when compared to arguably the 2 biggest Olympic sports, Gymnastics and Figure Skating.   Yet those 2 sports forge ahead and the athletes that participate in them keep training for their shot at Olympic gold.

TKD and it's athletes should do the same.  If you get screwed over, be angry at the time and then use that emotion to push yourself to train harder for your next major event.  Eventually you do have to get over it and move on.  I am not saying forget that it happened.  Use it as a motivator though.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> I do understand your beef but just don't think it is as relivant as you think. If everyone coming into your studio is thinking that what you do is Olympic TKD then the sport is really being marketed well. But we all know that there is hardly any marketing for TKD as a whole let alone Olympic TKD. I just don't think what you are building up is really there.
> 
> 
> Yes, they need to suck it up. Cheating goes on in every sport. Boxing, Football, Hockey, Basketball...you name it. Refs make bad calls all the time. Even when it is obvious that the call was bad. You don't see people over reacting by saying that the sport is no good and it needs to be done away with because of it. No they cuss the ref. Or they cuss the corruption not the sport. But they get over it and play the next week too. And the spectators watch the next week as well.
> ...


 


:idunno:You really don't read my posts do you? You haven't understood a word I've written because you have managed to miscontrue every sentence of mine. It really is pointless debating with you when you won't read or understand what I'm saying.
I'm not in the least crying over what happened to the British TKD team, I'd prefer they weren't there tbh, I find what passes for TKD in the Olympics to be an embarrassment, I merely pointed out the 'discrepancies' as an example of how disreputable the officals have appeared. You yourself have confirmed there is bad if not corrupt judging.
My opinion is that Olympic TKD is, as has been said before nothing more than dancing, thats why it should be taken out of the Olympics, and yes I do know TKD has been around longer but as a martial art not a gymnastic entertainment.

I don't have a studio (again a martial arts studio sounds twee), in fact, I know of no one who does, we have clubs, gyms or schools here.

As for all judges being thought of as idiots .......
Quote from miguksaram -_Sensei Sharkey has always told us that when you_ _enter a tournament you have to see the invisible sign on the door that says "All judges are idiots", then smile and go enjoy yourself_. Unquote


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## ATC (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> :idunno:You really don't read my posts do you? You haven't understood a word I've written because you have managed to miscontrue every sentence of mine. It really is pointless debating with you when you won't read or understand what I'm saying.
> I'm not in the least crying over what happened to the British TKD team, I'd prefer they weren't there tbh, I find what passes for TKD in the Olympics to be an embarrassment, I merely pointed out the 'discrepancies' as an example of how disreputable the officals have appeared. You yourself have confirmed there is bad if not corrupt judging.
> My opinion is that Olympic TKD is, as has been said before nothing more than dancing, thats why it should be taken out of the Olympics, and yes I do know TKD has been around longer but as a martial art not a gymnastic entertainment.
> 
> ...


Tez, I do read your post and happen to agree with a few things that you have stated in some of them. It just happens that we disagree on a few points in this topic. Just because I counter argue your points with my own does not mean that I do not get what you are saying. I just disagree with them. I think that you want me to agree and that in turn would have you believe I understand you.

As for Olympic TKD being nothing more than dancing, I can only smile at the notion.

Studio, gym, club, school, all semantics.

As for miguksaram's comment, I took it as a figurative thing, not literal, but that's just me. I could be wrong.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> Tez, I do read your post and happen to agree with a few things that you have stated in some of them. It just happens that we disagree on a few points in this topic. Just because I counter argue your points with my own does not mean that I do not get what you are saying. I just disagree with them. I think that you want me to agree and that in turn would have you believe I understand you.
> 
> As for Olympic TKD being nothing more than dancing, I can only smile at the notion.
> 
> ...


 

You may think you are disagreeing with what I say but you are disagreeing with what you think I say.

Gym, club etc is not semantics, it's more a frame of reference. You wouldn't see MMAers poncing around in a studio. A studio also denotes a commercial enterprise where as many of us are in a martial arts club denoting a non commercial group of like minded people. We have different words for a purpose.


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## ATC (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> You may think you are disagreeing with what I say but you are disagreeing with what you think I say.


No, with what you say. How can you know what I think. Again this is the perfect example of you wanting me to agree with you, and becasue I don't you wrap a "you don't understand" tag around it. You can't think for me or anyone else. I disagree I disagree, my reason for doing so makes no difference, regardless if you believe I understand you or not.



> Gym, club etc is not semantics, it's more a frame of reference. You wouldn't see MMAers poncing around in a studio. A studio also denotes a commercial enterprise where as many of us are in a martial arts club denoting a non commercial group of like minded people. We have different words for a purpose.


This seems like arguing just for the sake of arguing...OK your right on this. 

Guess I understand.

Nah I just can't let it be so easy, sorry.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





So where does you club (of like minded people) practice? I would hope in some commercial enterprise such as a building that could be called a studio, or a gym for that matter.

Guess I don't understand.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> No, with what you say. How can you know what I think. Again this is the perfect example of you wanting me to agree with you, and becasue I don't you wrap a "you don't understand" tag around it. You can't think for me or anyone else. I disagree I disagree, my reason for doing so makes no difference, regardless if you believe I understand you or not.
> 
> 
> This seems like arguing just for the sake of arguing...OK your right on this.
> ...


 
My club is in Harden Barracks, Catterick Garrison. (send all money to Catterick Garrison Martial Arts Club there lol)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catterick_Garrison


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## ATC (Aug 28, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> My club is in Harden Barracks, Catterick Garrison. (send all money to Catterick Garrison Martial Arts Club there lol)
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catterick_Garrison


 
Glad that many on this here forum site can argue his/her points and still have fun. We will not all always agree or disagree on the same things but we all train hard and love the arts.

Here's a pint my friend {_}? and if you don't do the beer or ale thing then soda, jucie or water it is for you. Cheers.


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## mango.man (Aug 28, 2009)

ATC said:


> Nah I just can't let it be so easy, sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Steering this back into the general direction of TKD in the Olympics, what do you suppose the Lopez family referred to their garage as, when that is where they were training?

I know that for the first 10 months that we were with the coach we are with now, that we trained on his driveway in front of his house. We referred to it as "The Concrete Jungle" and sometimes as "The Driveway Dojang". But it certainly wasn't a club, school, gym, or any sort of commercial enterprise or building. And it really didn't matter. It was a place where us like minded people could get together and beat the crap out of each other for 10-14 hours a week.


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## terryl965 (Aug 28, 2009)

Can we all just get along, wait that is only in the movies. I mean we have a difference of opinion here and that is all. Remember breath in the good air breath out the bad.


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## ATC (Aug 28, 2009)

mango.man said:


> Steering this back into the general direction of TKD in the Olympics, what do you suppose the Lopez family referred to their garage as, when that is where they were training?
> 
> I know that for the first 10 months that we were with the coach we are with now, that we trained on his driveway in front of his house. We referred to it as "The Concrete Jungle" and sometimes as "The Driveway Dojang". But it certainly wasn't a club, school, gym, or any sort of commercial enterprise or building. And it really didn't matter. It was a place where us like minded people could get together and beat the crap out of each other for 10-14 hours a week.


LOL....all in context. As language is today one word does not represent an absolute. My garage is just that but it can double as whatever I want it to double as. I put a bed in there and I can call it a bedroom. Put some mats down and do some MA training, then it can be a dojang, studio, gym or whatever you want it to.

But I think if you read the comments from both of us again you will see that you are basicly stating the same thing I am.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Can we all just get along, wait that is only in the movies. I mean we have a difference of opinion here and that is all. Remember breath in the good air breath out the bad.


 
Ah Terry we do get on! 
It's a matter of perception and I think cultural differences, say studio to British people and they will think of a film studio, dance studio, painters studio, to many of us a martial arts studio would sound out warning bells as not being 'right', it sounds too poncy and unmartial. The couple I have heard about here are based on American models of McDojos, contracts, blackbelt clubs and 5 year old Dan grades. 
I've posted this before but I teach TSD, it's hard to get soldiers (big hairy arsed paras and Guardsmen etc) to take TSD seriously because they equate it with the stuff they have seen on the Olympics, now you really don't want their opinion on it trust me. They won't even look at what we do, a good many of them are martial artists with grades in karate, judo, JKD and proper TKD. 
When we see TKD here it's in the ITC gym being done by the Gurkhas as part of their military training, the Gurkhas put the fierceness into TKD. I imagine it's much like the original Korean 'killing art' and yet here's people asking me to take the Olympic TKD seriously. I don't know if you can see the funny side of that! Perhaps you have to see the Gurkhas spar first then compare it to the Olympic stuff. They do a very good pattern by the way with the Kukri.

I was only half joking about sending money btw, we are busy fund raising for the Help For Heroes charity as they are going to be building a rehab centre here for injured servicepeople. I'd rather people sent it to them though!


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## miguksaram (Aug 31, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> A lot of people seem to share this opinion. I do not. Consider the knee vs. the head. The contact surface of each target is shaped differently and is of different size and different vantage point from a person facing another straight on. It seems obvious to me that your kicking method will therefore also be different.
> 
> You get good at what you practice. If you want to be competent at kicking the head, practice kicking the head. If you want to be good at hitting a knee, practice kicking the knee. Or do both. But don't think that just because you are good at hitting the head, that means you are good elsewhere. That's a fallacy.


 
I can see where you are coming from on this, but isn't the basic mechanics the same in execution regardless of the target?  The difference being the height of the target.  Now where I do see some faults with my own philosophy is the fact that when kicking to the head you use a different striking surface as opposed to kickinig lower.  Example I might use instep round kick to the head and more ball of the foot towards the knee.


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## dancingalone (Aug 31, 2009)

miguksaram said:


> I can see where you are coming from on this, but isn't the basic mechanics the same in execution regardless of the target?  The difference being the height of the target.  Now where I do see some faults with my own philosophy is the fact that when kicking to the head you use a different striking surface as opposed to kickinig lower.  Example I might use instep round kick to the head and more ball of the foot towards the knee.



I'm no doctor, but surely the different muscle groups and ligaments are worked differently depending on the height you kick at even if it is the same technique?  I'm a believer in reproduction.  Execute a sidekick perfectly 100,000 times waist-level and you might have a good chance of performing something similar when you need to, muscles cold while on the streets.  The more variables you introduce, the more different each discrete technique will be, meaning the more repetitions needed to ingrain it into muscle memory.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 31, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> I'm no doctor, but surely the different muscle groups and ligaments are worked differently depending on the height you kick at even if it is the same technique? I'm a believer in reproduction. Execute a sidekick perfectly 100,000 times waist-level and you might have a good chance of performing something similar when you need to, muscles cold while on the streets. The more variables you introduce, the more different each discrete technique will be, meaning the more repetitions needed to ingrain it into muscle memory.


Generally, I have found that the height of the kick does affect how it is executed in a general sense.  If you are kicking about waist level most of the time, low kicks are not be a problem in my experience.  I have spent a lot more time kicking waist high than head high, and low kicks have not been a difficult adaptaion for me, particularly with regards to front or side kicks.  Turning kicks required the most adjustment.

The major issues with predominantly high kicks in practice are that first, you are not warmed up and stretched out in an SD scenario, and secondly (and more importantly), street clothes and shoes affect your kicking dynamic quite a bit, often prohibiting high kicks at all.

I still feel that a skilled taekwondoist can adapt his or her kicks according to the situation that they are in, at least to enough of an extent that they can use their kicks effectively in the real world.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 31, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you are kicking about waist level most of the time, low kicks are not be a problem in my experience.



The flexibility issue aside, I simply believe targets are distinct, requiring different technique and striking surfaces.  The roundhouse kick to temple may be best struck with the instep, while the floating rib (if you're determined to use a roundhouse kick - I would favor the side kick) may be best damaged with the ball of the foot.  How about the groin with the front kick.  Would you use the ball of the foot or the instep in a scooping motion?  I would favor the latter choice.

It's not a simple matter of saying I can kick high, so I can kick low.  I teach my students to respect each target and to train accordingly with repetitions and even weapon conditioning if need be.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 31, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> The flexibility issue aside, I simply believe targets are distinct, requiring different technique and striking surfaces. The roundhouse kick to temple may be best struck with the instep, while the floating rib (if you're determined to use a roundhouse kick - I would favor the side kick) may be best damaged with the ball of the foot. How about the groin with the front kick. Would you use the ball of the foot or the instep in a scooping motion? I would favor the latter choice.


A lot would depend upon my selection of footwear. Certain shoes make kicking with the ball of the foot more difficult. Other footwear choices afford little protection to the instep.

Generally, a front or side kick waist level or below will be more appropriate in SD, but certainly any kick can have an application. 



dancingalone said:


> It's not a simple matter of saying I can kick high, so I can kick low. I teach my students to respect each target and to train accordingly with repetitions and even weapon conditioning if need be.


A good practice, and one that we do in hapkido. 

Certainly, I do not fully subscribe to the 'I can kick high, so I can kick low' line of reasoning; it is true from a flexibility standpoint, but there are other factors as well.

On the other hand, we are talking about kicking. Most people have little difficulty kicking low because the skills are developed in various ball sports that most kids play. Also, like punching, low kicks are fairly inutitive; nobody needs any special training to kick an opponent in the groin. Kicks are not exactly rocket science either, so the idea that the sport taekwondoist, who spends a great deal of time kicking, cannot adapt his or her kicks fairly easily simply does not hold water in my estimation.

The biggest issue that a sport taekwondoist will face in the real world is lack of real time defense against being grabbed when they kick. This is a much bigger problem than the difference in kicking dynamics between low and high kicks, and one with greater consequences as well.

Daniel


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