# Southern Baptist leader, "no yoga for Christians"



## punisher73

Thought this was an interesting article. What are your thoughts?



> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39553520/ns/us_news-life/?GT1=43001


 

Interesting point at the end of the article that the pastor makes.  Someone asked about doing the poses/stretching but no the chanting/spiritual aspects of it.  The pastor's view is that you aren't doing yoga then.  So what are your thoughts on that aspect?  If you remove all of the spiritual aspects that yoga was founded on, are you still doing yoga or are you just exercising and stretching?


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## Xue Sheng

punisher73 said:


> If you remove all of the spiritual aspects that yoga was founded on, are you still doing yoga or are you just exercising and stretching?


 
You get Power Yoga.

Other than that all I have to say is how secure is someone in their own faith/spirituality if it can be threatened by a Yoga class


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## Omar B

If it's just the physical aspect of Yoga, then it's not Yoga.  I've seen many gyms with yoga instructors who don't know crap about it's religious or historical underpinnings (or for that matter, the actual names for the moves they are doing).  Neither can you say you have learned the whole system without spending any less than 10 years training under a guru.  Non or that learned it in a fitness class or in college or by going to some other dude's Yoga class every day.

It looks like yoga, but is not.


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## CoryKS

Yoga: the flexibility exercise of SATAN!!!


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## Xue Sheng

CoryKS said:


> Yoga: the flexibility exercise of SATAN!!!


 
:lol:

You made me think what Church Lady might say


Yoga Well, isn't that special?

Now who would want to teach yoga in church Now, who could it be? Could it be ... *Satan*?


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## clfsean

Dude's an idiot... but a special idiot. He believes in what he says & has other that people that do as well. That's dangerous. 

You put into a thing what you want. You take from a thing what you want. 

I can read the Quran & it doesn't make me a Muslim. I can read the Talmud & I'm not an "add water & instant Jew". I went to Shaolin Temple, Potala Palace & Jokorum Monastary & came home NOT a Buddhist. 

Dude is about as together as the schmuck in Florida.


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Dude's an idiot... but a special idiot. He believes in what he says & has other that people that do as well. That's dangerous.
> 
> You put into a thing what you want. You take from a thing what you want.
> 
> I can read the Quran & it doesn't make me a Muslim. I can read the Talmud & I'm not an "add water & instant Jew". I went to Shaolin Temple, Potala Palace & Jokorum Monastary & came home NOT a Buddhist.
> 
> Dude is about as together as the schmuck in Florida.


 
You mean...I'm NOT a daoist just because I went to Bái Yún Gùan :uhyeah:


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## Touch Of Death

clfsean said:


> Dude's an idiot... but a special idiot. He believes in what he says & has other that people that do as well. That's dangerous.
> 
> You put into a thing what you want. You take from a thing what you want.
> 
> I can read the Quran & it doesn't make me a Muslim. I can read the Talmud & I'm not an "add water & instant Jew". I went to Shaolin Temple, Potala Palace & Jokorum Monastary & came home NOT a Buddhist.
> 
> Dude is about as together as the schmuck in Florida.


He believes what he says because Yoga is really rooted in a foreign religion... Hello.
Sean


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> You mean...I'm NOT a daoist just because I went to Bái Yún Gùan :uhyeah:



Bummer but no dude...


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## Touch Of Death

You must first read, The Dao of Pooh.
Sean


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## clfsean

Touch Of Death said:


> He believes what he says because Yoga is really rooted in a foreign religion... Hello.
> Sean



And the Quran, Talmud & the monastaries of Tibet I visted aren't?

Just because you practice a piece of a thing, doesn't mean you practice all of a thing.

If that were the case, we'd all be chanting sutras before class, during class & after class along with detatching from the secular world to study Chinese martial arts. In Japanese martial arts, it'd be koans, calligraphy, tea & flower arranging as well. In Indonesian, animism & shamanism.


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## Touch Of Death

clfsean said:


> And the Quran, Talmud & the monastaries of Tibet I visted aren't?
> 
> Just because you practice a piece of a thing, doesn't mean you practice all of a thing.
> 
> If that were the case, we'd all be chanting sutras before class, during class & after class along with detatching from the secular world to study Chinese martial arts. In Japanese martial arts, it'd be koans, calligraphy, tea & flower arranging as well. In Indonesian, animism & shamanism.


If you read the Koran, it is.
sean


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## clfsean

Touch Of Death said:


> If you read the Koran, it is.
> sean



Huh? 

Because I read a theological text, doesn't make me a member of the sect. 

Because I visit a place deemed "holy" or any other theological reference, doesn't make me a member of the sect.

Because I practice a martial art that's grounded in a theology, doesn't make me an adherent to it.

Because you practice yoga, doesn't make you a devotee of Hinduism, Buddhism or anything else.

This guy is pushing his thoughts & values out to everybody as "I know & you don't". Being raised in the South & around Southern baptists... I kinda got an idea a little.


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## crushing

Is he a hypocrite?  I found a picture of what may be him practicing what appears to be some form of yoga.


http://silentespeaks.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/head-up-***.jpg


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## Touch Of Death

clfsean said:


> Huh?
> 
> Because I read a theological text, doesn't make me a member of the sect.
> 
> Because I visit a place deemed "holy" or any other theological reference, doesn't make me a member of the sect.
> 
> Because I practice a martial art that's grounded in a theology, doesn't make me an adherent to it.
> 
> Because you practice yoga, doesn't make you a devotee of Hinduism, Buddhism or anything else.
> 
> This guy is pushing his thoughts & values out to everybody as "I know & you don't". Being raised in the South & around Southern baptists... I kinda got an idea a little.


From what I have read on this thread, he did say the streatches were OK. I do doubt that most Christian leaders would recomend that their students read the Koran; however, I doubt that most Christian leaders would recomend against "visiting" some historical landmark. I'm sure you aren't, personaly, going to start worshipping the sun, but I thinks its OK for this guy to bring what some of the stuff means to light.
Sean


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## bluewaveschool

When most Americans hear 'yoga' they only think of the poses and such.  They have no idea of the spiritual side of it.  Think of it as 2 branches, traditional yoga and western yoga.  

Kind of like Tae Kwon Do, with the schools that are more traditional and schools that focus more on the sporting aspect.  Some martial artists don't care about the traditions and learning all the history, they want the physical part of it.  Some classes are geared towards that.  Is a school NOT a TKD school if they don't teach about Gen. Choi and use Korean terms?


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## punisher73

Omar B said:


> If it's just the physical aspect of Yoga, then it's not Yoga. I've seen many gyms with yoga instructors who don't know crap about it's religious or historical underpinnings (or for that matter, the actual names for the moves they are doing). Neither can you say you have learned the whole system without spending any less than 10 years training under a guru. Non or that learned it in a fitness class or in college or by going to some other dude's Yoga class every day.
> 
> It looks like yoga, but is not.


 
that actually corresponds to what the pastor was saying.  If all you do is stretching, it is NOT yoga.  He is defining yoga as a spiritual practice of a religion.

I have seen two types of yoga classes.  One is run by aerobics instructors and combines yoga and pilates and other exercises, and the second is run by new age people who took a cert class and combine it with their own spiritual beliefs.  I have not come across a yoga class that is taught in a traditional manner (extension of hinduism).

From reading the article, I don't think the pastor has a problem with the first type of class, it is the second and third types he would.


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## bluewaveschool

so that stuff under the 'yoga' tab on my wii fit isn't really yoga since i'm not learning about hinduism and chanting at the same time?


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## Omar B

Check out your local Hindu Temple, they should have real Yoga classes ... and free lunch.

And no, I've never used a Wii but I'm pretty certain it's got nothing to do with real Yoga.  Yoga is the physical aspect of the religion, it's a religion of body, heart and mind where all must be constantly worked on.  You can think if it as Buddhist monks doing Kung Fu, same deal, an extension of their religion.


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## Ken Morgan

Christianity has borrowed many aspects of other non-christian beliefs over the centuries and adapted them as their own. Its so sad that someone is upset about what 99.9% of people consider a form of exercise, as being contradictory to christianity.


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## Omar B

Fact is, wherever they may be learning Yoga (which I'm pretty sure it's not a temple) then it's just working out and not at all running counter to any religion.


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## girlbug2

It sounds as if the pastor has no problem with christians performing the stretches and exercises as long as the chanting and religious aspects of Yoga aren't practiced. That's fair. I'm a christian and I have taken classes of this "westernized" version of Yoga. I see nothing wrong with it. But I would have a conflict with my christian beliefs if the instructors started introducing the chants, because they have their origins in a conflicting religion.

We all must decide where we draw the line.


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## Tez3

I can see where he's coming from if these chants are used as some are prayers to other gods but I'd have no problem reciting some of the others such as the one for enlightenment or peace.
http://yogaholidays.net/magazine/mantras.htm


From what my friend told me using the Wii Yoga can cause you to utter a great many exclaimations to deities, usually the day after when you discover muscles you didn't know you had!


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## clfsean

Omar B said:


> Check out your local Hindu Temple, they should have real Yoga classes ... and free lunch.



Cool!! That may be worth checking into just to piss people off around here!!



Omar B said:


> And no, I've never used a Wii but I'm pretty certain it's got nothing to do with real Yoga.  Yoga is the physical aspect of the religion, it's a religion of body, heart and mind where all must be constantly worked on.  You can think if it as Buddhist monks doing Kung Fu, same deal, an extension of their religion.



But I practice & teach Kung Fu. Does the fact I don't have everybody in saffron robes & chanting sutras (Buddhist) or wearing grey robes with ridiculously long moustaches & hair in funny braids & hats (Daoist), make it any less that what it is ? Chinese Martial Arts? Hell... Buddha is named in the art I teach.

This guy is pushing his values on people. Sheeple buy into it. Religion is a personal exploration if you're strong enough of mind & spirit. You don't need some low self esteemed holy roller trying to tell you his interpretation of things. 

Guidance... maybe... but nothing more. 

He's just like all the other thumpers that get or need a little spotlight time. He's doing it for his reasons/gratification/notariety, nothing else or sublime in nature.


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## clfsean

Well... isn't this special??

http://www.ajc.com/news/christian-yoga-advocates-in-667153.html

A type of F.U. to him...


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## punisher73

clfsean said:


> Cool!! That may be worth checking into just to piss people off around here!!
> 
> 
> 
> But I practice & teach Kung Fu. Does the fact I don't have everybody in saffron robes & chanting sutras (Buddhist) or wearing grey robes with ridiculously long moustaches & hair in funny braids & hats (Daoist), make it any less that what it is ? Chinese Martial Arts? Hell... Buddha is named in the art I teach.
> 
> This guy is pushing his values on people. Sheeple buy into it. Religion is a personal exploration if you're strong enough of mind & spirit. You don't need some low self esteemed holy roller trying to tell you his interpretation of things.
> 
> Guidance... maybe... but nothing more.
> 
> He's just like all the other thumpers that get or need a little spotlight time. He's doing it for his reasons/gratification/notariety, nothing else or sublime in nature.


 
Did you actually read the article?  You blame the "Bible thumpers", yet the article talks about how Muslims have already banned the practice in many areas.


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## Brother John

punisher73 said:


> Thought this was an interesting article. What are your thoughts?
> Interesting point at the end of the article that the pastor makes.  Someone asked about doing the poses/stretching but no the chanting/spiritual aspects of it.  The pastor's view is that you aren't doing yoga then.  So what are your thoughts on that aspect?  If you remove all of the spiritual aspects that yoga was founded on, are you still doing yoga or are you just exercising and stretching?


I don't know Dr. Mohler, but he has SOME good points, but overall ..I don't agree with him.

He's right in that if a person engages in ALL of the eight branches of yoga as they were originally established by the sutras of Patanjali, then he's 100% correct... it was a vehicle for mystical self development under-girded by Hindu theology. In THIS way....it is incompatible with biblical Christianity. 

I feel he's wrong in that IF you do not practice ALL 8 branches of the original Yoga (and exceedingly few in N-America do) that you're not doing "Yoga". 

Brother Mohler does not define *for me* any of the following things:
*1.* What constitutes my yoga practice. I engage in yoga asana and pranayama without it affecting my relationship with God in anyway.
*2.* The nature of or practice of my relationship to the Son of God, Jesus Christ. 

So his pronouncement doesn't affect me any more than...well......ANY other human pronouncement. 

Your Brother
John


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## clfsean

punisher73 said:


> Did you actually read the article?  You blame the "Bible thumpers", yet the article talks about how Muslims have already banned the practice in many areas.



Hey... what is done in countries where Islam is the core of their society is their business. 

This is here.


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## Tez3

I don't find the Pastor concerned unreasonable. If you are a believer in a religion that says you shouldn't worship or pray to other gods then you don't. Yoga done with chants does have religious meaning and is praying to other gods. I didn't find that he was disrespecting Yoga or the religion associated with it unlike some others quoted in the article. If you chose to follow a particular religion you should follow it's teachings not make up your own or disregard things you find inconvenient. If you don't like or believe in the teachings don't follow that religion either find one you can believe in or don't have one, the choice is yours. 

Whether doing Yoga without the chants is still Yoga or not I really don't know. I don't think however he's trying to stop anyone doing the physical part of Yoga for health. The Christian Church does believe as my religion does that one shouldn't worship or pray to other gods and chanting prayers to Hindu gods isn't exactly keeping to that belief. I don't see anything wrong with chanting to Hindu gods if one believes in them, it's just that you can't easily ride two horses. If you make a promise to worship one particular god one shouldn't break it, I doubt it affects gods but a promise breaker isn't such a good thing to be.


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## Omar B

_Other  Christian leaders have said practicing yoga is incompatible with  the  teachings of Jesus. Pat Robertson has called the chanting and other   spiritual components that go along with yoga "really spooky."  California  megachurch pastor John MacArthur called yoga a "false  religion." Muslim  clerics have banned Muslims from practicing yoga in  Egypt, Malaysia and  Indonesia, citing similar concerns.  http://www.ajc.com/news/christian-yoga-advocates-in-667153.html

_Isnt it just like the southern baptists to reduce another major world religion to simply "chanting" and "being spooky" (whatever the f that means).  Anyone calling Yoga a false religion is insane, it does not claim to be a religion at all.  It can play a part in a religion, but it fills the same void any other working out would, the "Body" part of a person's constant development.


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Bummer but no dude...


 
DAMN!!!! So then I am guessing you&#8217;re saying I&#8217;m not a Buddhist because I went to Tanzhe Temple either&#8230;.well looks like I have to buy a WHOLE new wardrobe :uhyeah:



Touch Of Death said:


> You must first read, The Dao of Pooh.Sean


 
I did that before I went to Bái Yún Gùan&#8230;and apparently it made no difference :disgust: :uhyeah:


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> DAMN!!!! So then I am guessing youre saying Im not a Buddhist because I went to Tanzhe Temple either.well looks like I have to buy a WHOLE new wardrobe :uhyeah:



Yep... that's what I'm saying dude. Have to deal with it. I do after visiting the Tibetan Monastaries & reading the aforementioned books once upon a time. Nothing changed... I'm still just me.


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Yep... that's what I'm saying dude. Have to deal with it. I do after visiting the Tibetan Monastaries & reading the aforementioned books once upon a time. Nothing changed... I'm still just me.


 
Damn!!!

Well I guess I have to go shopping to buy new clothes.... do I have to shave off the long beard and mustache too :uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng

And for the record as it applies to the OP based on reading throught the thread I am still wondering the same thing

"How secure is someone in their own faith/spirituality if it can be threatened so easily by a Yoga class"

And I know this is not what that person of the story is doing but based on reading through this thread I find it interesting that people are so quick to throw in the first amendment when they feel there freedom is speech is threatened, even though they tend to misunderstand what the first amendment is actually saying. But many seem to forget there is more to the 1st amendment than speech.


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## Xue Sheng

Omar B said:


> You can think if it as Buddhist monks doing Kung Fu, same deal, an extension of their religion.


 
Actually no, if you believe the origin stories. It was more to keep them strong enough to endure the long hours needed to train their religion. IT was not an extension of it.

But I do not want to get into a long discussion about Eastern vs. Western views and compartmentalization or the lack thereof again.

The only thing I will say is that you can see in the I Ching thing that apply to Taiji but that does not make Taiji an extension of Daoism nor is practicing Taiji an extension or expression of Daoism. 

To say any of this is an extension of Daoism or Buddhism is kind of like saying if I study science, math or physics I will see a plus sign which is a cross so it is an extension of Christianity.


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## MA-Caver

This really is just getting old or maybe it's BEEN old since before I was even born. 
Me step-mum wonders why I don't attend her Southern Baptist church whenever I have a sunday off from work. Well DUH! I went once and when I saw the drum kit, synthesizers and electric git-tars over by the choir, then listened (or tried to) to the young, hip, bald preacher with the van-dyke facial hair, his expensive suit and walking around quietly talking out his sermon which was *punctuated with occasional outbursts of vocal emphasis* shrug: ...zzzz.... :eye-popping: ) to be sure his audience wasn't nodding off... I never went back again... for about 5 years... don't plan on it either.

As much good as these guys do for people in finding a happier way of living through their Lord Jesus Christ... they tend to come up with some of the most asinine concepts about other religions and faiths. Even with different Christian faiths. 
The Koran burning idjit down in Florida for example... and now this guy. 
They're the same type of idjits that condemn practicing Martial Arts because you're bowing to someone or a symbol in the dojo.  
They take another faith/religion's concept and warp out of context to make theirs look a lot better. 
It's the Ours is right theirs is wrong kind of teachings that has had me put off on organized religion for years. 
Until you die you won't know for SURE who exactly is right about the whole after life (or not) thing. For all we know the atheists may have it spot on, right on the nose! That's the one thing that sucks about death... you can't come back and tell everyone what is on the other side... if anything.

Anyway... you have a belief, you spout it to others, they agree, they wanna hear more and follow you, give you money so you can keep alive and decent and have a place to teach them more and discover a way to live and thus a religion is born or passed down since it's inception a few months ago or a few hundred to a few thousand years ago. 

Sigh... it's getting old.

*
*


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> Damn!!!
> 
> Well I guess I have to go shopping to buy new clothes.... do I have to shave off the long beard and mustache too :uhyeah:



Nah... Keep the Fu Manchu. It helps with winter winds & I hear ladies dig 'em... :bangahead:


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## Xue Sheng

clfsean said:


> Nah... Keep the Fu Manchu. It helps with winter winds & I hear ladies dig 'em... :bangahead:


 
So I can keep the beard and Mustache but the Daoist and Buddhist clothes must change is that it but Ive been to China and I use to train the Guandao so is it still ok to dress like this


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## clfsean

Xue Sheng said:


> So I can keep the beard and Mustache but the Daoist and Buddhist clothes must change is that it but Ive been to China and I use to train the Guandao so is it still ok to dress like this



If you feel good about it... don't let anybody tell you no.

BWAHAHAHAHA


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## punisher73

clfsean said:


> Hey... what is done in countries where Islam is the core of their society is their business.
> 
> This is here.


 
Hmmm. Can't have it both ways. A dominately Islamic country says don't do something and that is fine. A dominately Christian country and someone says don't do something for Christians is not fine? Whether people want to admit it or not 85% of the US proclaims to be Christian. 

He didn't call for yoga to be outlawed, didn't call for people to start protesting yoga classes. Merely stated his opinion that his belief is that the core tenants of yoga if believed to be true, are not consitant with the core tenants of Christianity if believed to be true. How is your belief anymore valid or important than his?

If you are defining yoga as he is (a spritual practice tied in with Hinduism), than it does not fit in with Christian doctrine or Muslim doctrine, or Jewish doctrine. If you only view yoga as a physical practice the same as pilates, than it does not conflict with Christianity. 

What part don't you agree with of his? His belief? Again, why is his belief any more or less valid than yours?  Why is it when ANY Christian leader expresses an opinion that is not popular, even though it IS consistant with what the Bible teaches is wrong (I am *not *talking about people changing around scriptures to support positions that are not biblical, such as white supremicists using it to support racism, or using the Bible to persecute people)?


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## clfsean

punisher73 said:


> Hmmm. Can't have it both ways. A dominately Islamic country says don't do something and that is fine. A dominately Christian country and someone says don't do something for Christians is not fine? Whether people want to admit it or not 85% of the US proclaims to be Christian.


 
Actually I can. Most Islamic countries, no matter what version of "Democracy" they espouse, are theocracies. The imams pull the strings & things are done. Saudi Arabia may be a definite democracy with the imams having a say, but not so much control. Indonesia & Malaysia are definitely theocratic in policy & principle, but not in raw practiced name. Egypt... not sure about.

We are a country founded (supposedly) on freedom of religion & persecution of practicing religion. Christianity is the predominant flavor of faith practiced here. No arguments there. However, there is separation of church & state, so the state would have no say regardless. At least for the time being... 



punisher73 said:


> He didn't call for yoga to be outlawed, didn't call for people to start protesting yoga classes. Merely stated his opinion that his belief is that the core tenants of yoga if believed to be true, are not consitant with the core tenants of Christianity if believed to be true. How is your belief anymore valid or important than his?



Mine isn't. However I don't go calling "group A" wrong because they choose to do something, regardless of religious orientation or not. However, sheeple out there will follow his opinion without looking at themselves because "he said it". 

I never mentioned him calling for it to be outlawed. That's a stretch from you back to the theocratic Islamic countries. Their choice. Their laws. Good for them. But not here. 



punisher73 said:


> If you are defining yoga as he is (a spritual practice tied in with Hinduism), than it does not fit in with Christian doctrine or Muslim doctrine, or Jewish doctrine. If you only view yoga as a physical practice the same as pilates, than it does not conflict with Christianity.



Who says his definition is correct? Wait... he did. And so he's telling people they're wrong by practicing it short of anything but a physical activity at a gym. 

Must mean Japanese martial arts are off limits where there's a kamidana in place. It's got to mean Chinese martial arts are off limits where there's a sun toi. Indonesian & some Filipino martial arts are definitely off limits. 



punisher73 said:


> What part don't you agree with of his? His belief? Again, why is his belief any more or less valid than yours?  Why is it when ANY Christian leader expresses an opinion that is not popular, even though it IS consistant with what the Bible teaches is wrong (I am *not *talking about people changing around scriptures to support positions that are not biblical, such as white supremicists using it to support racism, or using the Bible to persecute people)?



I don't agree with him saying "you're wrong". They're no more wrong than he is for getting paid for preaching. If anything, he's wrong for turning a buck because of this ruckus. He's wrong for turning a buck running a church. He should have a job to make a living and then preach because he's moved to, not financially inclined or ego driven to. It's a calling, not a career path. There's a difference. My brother preaches because he was drawn to it & makes $0 for it. 

As far as "ANY" Christian leader expressing an unpopular opinion... who said they have to be popular? When did this become a popularity contest anyway? 

Who says they're right, anyway? Shakespeare?


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## Tez3

I can't see why people are getting twisted about this.

Christian belief is that saying prayers to and worshipping other gods is wrong and not to be done.
The 'full on' Yoga has prayers to other gods therefore it is not compatable with Christianity. You can't argue with that!

If you are a Christian you will follow the laws and teachings of your church, if you aren't a Christian you won't care because this man has said it for Christians, no one else. If you are a Christian, you can't chop and change your basic tenets of which this is one, just to suit your lifestyle.

That's the case in a nutshell. 

Good post punisher!


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## clfsean

Tez3 said:


> I can't see why people are getting twisted about this.


 
Because we can. Bout the best answer I've got.



Tez3 said:


> Christian belief is that saying prayers to and worshipping other gods is wrong and not to be done.
> The 'full on' Yoga has prayers to other gods therefore it is not compatable with Christianity. You can't argue with that!


 
If you're a "Christian" then you wouldn't go to a "full on Yoga" class anyway. Then again, you also wouldn't participate in any "imported" holiday or event we all take part in yearly either. Oh, most music would be right out the door too along with movies & other popular forms of entertainment. Martial arts would be definitely not happening to add to the list. 



Tez3 said:


> If you are a Christian you will follow the laws and teachings of your church, if you aren't a Christian you won't care because this man has said it for Christians, no one else.



It's the precedent.



Tez3 said:


> If you are a Christian, you can't chop and change your basic tenets of which this is one, just to suit your lifestyle.



Why not?? 99.99% do anyway.



Tez3 said:


> That's the case in a nutshell.
> 
> Good post punisher!



Skin of the nutshell anyway, but it's a good Friday topic!!


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## Xue Sheng

punisher73 said:


> why is his belief any more or less valid than yours?


 
Think about that statement for a bit and then think about what he is asking for.

In the USA there is Freedom of Religion (that is that other pesky part of the 1st amendment people seem to forget) so you can ask why is his belief any more or less valid than yours? But that then begs the question; why is their belief any more or less valid than his? 

Why is he anymore right than anyone else?



Tez3 said:


> I can't see why people are getting twisted about this.


 

I truly have no idea.


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## punisher73

Xue Sheng said:


> Think about that statement for a bit and then think about what he is asking for.
> 
> In the USA there is Freedom of Religion (that is that other pesky part of the 1st amendment people seem to forget) so you can ask why is his belief any more or less valid than yours? But that then begs the question; why is their belief any more or less valid than his?
> 
> Why is he anymore right than anyone else?


 
That was my point.  No one is more "right" about this than anyone else.  Everyone is entitled to an opinion and a right to express that opinion.  But, to start judging him for expressing the opinion of his religion is not right.  If you say that you don't agree with Christianity and therefore don't agree with his belief that is fine with me.  But, I would expect that you (in the general sense, not specifically you) would agree that his view was correct in the context of what it was spoken in.


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## punisher73

Tez wrote:


> Quote: If you are a Christian you will follow the laws and teachings of your church, if you aren't a Christian you won't care because this man has said it for Christians, no one else
> Originally Posted by *Tez3*
> 
> 
> _If you are a Christian you will follow the laws and teachings of your church, if you aren't a Christian you won't care because this man has said it for Christians, no one else._


Sean wrote:


> It's the precedent


Could you clarify what you mean by this?  I think it will help me understand your viewpoint more.
Thanks


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## clfsean

punisher73 said:


> Could you clarify what you mean by this?  I think it will help me understand your viewpoint more.
> Thanks



Well... the precedent of "Preacher A" telling "Church A" (non-descript applies to any religion) to do/not do something because of *his* belief or interpretation of some religious text and the sheeple following suit without being strong enough to question & determine for themselves whether or not it's proper/correct to do so.

I've seen it before on things like this, local where I live. 

I don't care for the precedent. 

That help any?


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## Touch Of Death

Xue Sheng said:


> And for the record as it applies to the OP based on reading throught the thread I am still wondering the same thing
> 
> "How secure is someone in their own faith/spirituality if it can be threatened so easily by a Yoga class"
> 
> And I know this is not what that person of the story is doing but based on reading through this thread I find it interesting that people are so quick to throw in the first amendment when they feel there freedom is speech is threatened, even though they tend to misunderstand what the first amendment is actually saying. But many seem to forget there is more to the 1st amendment than speech.


As you do the Sun Salutation, you should consider why? Its not about shaking your faith. You don't see a lot of christians attending cynagog either, and its not because they think it will shake their faith.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

clfsean said:


> Well... the precedent of "Preacher A" telling "Church A" (non-descript applies to any religion) to do/not do something because of *his* belief or interpretation of some religious text and the sheeple following suit without being strong enough to question & determine for themselves whether or not it's proper/correct to do so.
> 
> I've seen it before on things like this, local where I live.
> 
> I don't care for the precedent.
> 
> That help any?


I would hardly call people sheeple because a religious leader pointed out something from the bible.
Sean


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## Omar B

Tez3 said:


> I can't see why people are getting twisted about this.
> Christian belief is that saying prayers to and worshipping other gods is wrong and not to be done.
> *The 'full on' Yoga has prayers to other gods therefore it is not compatable with Christianity. You can't argue with that!*
> If you are a Christian you will follow the laws and teachings of your church, if you aren't a Christian you won't care because this man has said it for Christians, no one else. If you are a Christian, you can't chop and change your basic tenets of which this is one, just to suit your lifestyle.
> That's the case in a nutshell.
> Good post punisher!



No you can't argue that.  But I say, unless you are stepping into a Hindu temple (the only place real Yoga is taught by real Gurus) then it's just working out and shouldnt be a problem.  Your local gym or health club doesnt have a guru on staff nor do they chant/pray ... or those that do I've heard some pretty crazy pronunciations by people who obviously don't know the language.


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## clfsean

Touch Of Death said:


> I would hardly call people sheeple because a religious leader pointed out something from the bible.
> Sean



That's cool. You don't, I do. 

If they're not strong enough to question (and there have been plenty that have) then they fit the role.

Anybody who blindly follows somebody in that position (in any organized religion) without questioning, deserves the title.


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## Tez3

Omar B said:


> No you can't argue that. But I say, unless you are stepping into a Hindu temple (the only place real Yoga is taught by real Gurus) then it's just working out and shouldnt be a problem. Your local gym or health club doesnt have a guru on staff nor do they chant/pray ... or those that do I've heard some pretty crazy pronunciations by people who obviously don't know the language.


 
You've just reitrated what the pastor said ie if you are just doing the movements it's not Yoga!  I don't think the pastor is saying don't do the movements, he's saying don't do the chanting/prayers which is a fair one. 

The pronouncations 'problem' is also common in martial arts!


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## Xue Sheng

Touch Of Death said:


> As you do the Sun Salutation, you should consider why?


 
I don&#8217;t understand this question.

As for me doing a Sun Salutation, is just exercise. I would never nor do I describe myself as a Yoga person. A Sun Salutation to me is a tool to help my martial arts it is not in any way to me a spiritual thing. However I have trained a bit of Kripalu Yoga, Power Yoga and most recently Hatha. I have considered Iyengar and Yin but to be honest it is all for the same purpose, to better my MA that is all. I know there are those that are deeply into Yoga and all it is about and I have trained with them and sat and talked with them and I never once felt they were ever a threat to whatever my spirituality is nor have I ever felt them a threat to Christianity or the Core values of the western world. 

I also have very good friends, who use to be a CMA sister, who was more recently my yoga teacher because she left CMA all together to deeply pursue yoga. I truly enjoy talking to her and I have never perceived anything she has said or discussed as a threat to me or any spirituality I may have. Actually, to be truthful, she is much happier and much healthier with yoga than she ever was with CMA. 




Touch Of Death said:


> Its not about shaking your faith. You don't see a lot of christians attending cynagog either, and its not because they think it will shake their faith.


 

Would you explain it to me then, because based on the article I do not see so much as an issue of shaking his faith, although he may be concerned about it shaking the faith of others. I would not label it intolerance but I do see it as a lack of understanding either to what yoga is, or how Americans tend to approach such things. Americans tend to be rather eclectic and take things they want to use form a thing in order to have it as a tool to achieve their goal be that Martial Arts, Spirituality or a better job. We rarely as a group get deeply into things. We have a tendency to change it to what we need or understand. My reference to Power Yoga is a good example IMO when you compare it to Hard core Hatha. 

However I have recently read about people pulling away from the church, be that Catholic, Protestant or Christian or whatever you want to call it. But that pilling away has little to do with abandoning their religion and has a lot to do with not agreeing with the views of their chosen church or the priest, pastor, clergyman in the church. They are still getting together as a group to worship, just not at a church. So to me that would say the Church needs to look more to what it is doing when people leave than looking for outside sources to blame.

To be honest I do not see any other religious practice as a threat to any other if one is truely faithful so I don&#8217;t really see the issue here at all.


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## Omar B

I would like to point out that chants and songs does not a Hindu make.  I'm an atheist, but I do yoga at the temple.  I get my workout in, chanting is relaxing, the lunch is great ... who's better than me right?  Just like singing songs with Jesus in it or celebrating christian holidays don't make you a christian either.  I could sing the Psalms, say all the various prayers, sing the hymns (I was in choir) take part in the religious cerimonies, doesnt mean I'm a devout follower of that tradition either, it's just apart of knowledge.

I'm from a family of Hindu and christian backgrounds and learning, repeating even attending ceremonies of one shouldn't really shake your belief in the other.  Enjoy the experience, see how other people live


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## Tez3

Omar B said:


> I would like to point out that chants and songs does not a Hindu make. I'm an atheist, but I do yoga at the temple. I get my workout in, chanting is relaxing, the lunch is great ... who's better than me right? Just like singing songs with Jesus in it or celebrating christian holidays don't make you a christian either. I could sing the Psalms, say all the various prayers, sing the hymns (I was in choir) take part in the religious cerimonies, doesnt mean I'm a devout follower of that tradition either, it's just apart of knowledge.
> 
> I'm from a family of Hindu and christian backgrounds and learning, repeating even attending ceremonies of one shouldn't really shake your belief in the other. Enjoy the experience, see how other people live


 

It's nothing to do with shaking faith, I don't sing hymns with anything Christian in it, I don't chant prayers to Hindu gods nor do I celebrate Christian or other festivals. It's not because I fear for my faith, it's out of respect for my own G-d. Respect, not fear or because I have been ordered to.

The only Christian service I do go to is, sadly, funerals. I still don't sing the words that aren't 'compatible' with my faith nor do I repeat the prayers. The funeral I was at on Wednesday transcended any one religion, the Church of England service was a gentle one, full of compassion and respect, there was no difficulty for me being there, nor for anyone I believe.


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## punisher73

Tez3 said:


> You've just reitrated what the pastor said ie if you are just doing the movements it's not Yoga! I don't think the pastor is saying don't do the movements, he's saying don't do the chanting/prayers which is a fair one.
> 
> The pronouncations 'problem' is also common in martial arts!


 
I typed "purpose of yoga" into google and here are the top two results.
http://www.swamij.com/yoga-meaning.htm

http://www.sivanandaonline.org/graphics/sadhana/yoga/purpose.html

Both of these websites are contrary to what the Bible teaches about the human condition and the path to God.


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## punisher73

clfsean said:


> That's cool. You don't, I do.
> 
> If they're not strong enough to question (and there have been plenty that have) then they fit the role.
> 
> Anybody who blindly follows somebody in that position (in any organized religion) without questioning, deserves the title.


 
You are projected your own biases onto this congregation.  Does the article say anywhere or a follow up story that everyone has accepted what he has said without question?  

I have heard pastors/priests say things that I don't agree with and many others didn't either.  If they are claiming things and telling you to do so without questioning it than that is a red flag for a cult and we are no longer dealing with the religion of Christianity.


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## clfsean

punisher73 said:


> You are projected your own biases onto this congregation.  Does the article say anywhere or a follow up story that everyone has accepted what he has said without question?


 
No... not on to the congregation. My opinions were put out there about him for making blanket statements & thinking for the sheeple that follow him unquestioningly. 

Here's a question I don't think we'll ever get an answer on. What's his experience, first hand, with yoga? 

The rebuttals to his commentary have come from outside of his herd, not within. I don't think we'll get much public response from them.



punisher73 said:


> I have heard pastors/priests say things that I don't agree with and many others didn't either.  If they are claiming things and telling you to do so without questioning it than that is a red flag for a cult and we are no longer dealing with the religion of Christianity.



Umm... there are plenty of "Christians" that do that here in the states along with various other flavors of religions around the world.


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## punisher73

clfsean said:


> Umm... there are plenty of "Christians" that do that here in the states along with various other flavors of religions around the world.


 
I should have clarified more what I meant.  If you take any religion and change it to justify your own extreme beliefs, it should not be judged as indicitive of that religion.  For example, looking at abortion clinic bombers and saying "that is Chrisitianity" or the taliban and saying "that is Muslim".

I was trying to make the distinction between a pastor (or other religious) leader giving informed guidance within the parameters of his religion vs. people claiming to be religious leaders making claims that are outside of what their religion actually says but are trying to justify it anyways.  For example, neo-nazis twisting scripture to hate Jews.


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## Brother John

clfsean said:


> That's cool. You don't, I do.
> 
> If they're not strong enough to question (and there have been plenty that have) then they fit the role.
> 
> Anybody who blindly follows somebody in that position (in any organized religion) without questioning, deserves the title.


and WHAT if they DO question, and then agree with him???
Are they still Sheeple? Because honestly, You don't know and are not qualified to ascertain IF they've "questioned" at all. It appears to me you simply don't like their opinion. Condemning without fully understanding seems to me to be NO better than the so called "Thumpers" you are judging. 

Your Brother
John


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## Tez3

To be honest there's not a lot of different interpretations you can actually put on the commandment about not worshipping other gods, it's one of the most unambigious statements going. 

I'm not really sure how you question it. It says you shouldn't worship or have other gods. You can accept that statement or you can reject it, up to you.

If I say that to train in my class you will wear a black BJJ Gi, it isn't open to questioning, you wear it and train or you don't wear it and don't train. The law about worshipping and praying to others gods is the same, it's a matter of choice not blindly following some leader. If you do the Yoga with the chants which are prayers to Hindu gods you are breaking your religions commandments which it's believed were given by their god, if you do the Yoga without the chants, its fine.


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## Flea

Brother John said:


> and WHAT if they DO question, and then agree with him???
> Are they still Sheeple? Because honestly, You don't know and are not qualified to ascertain IF they've "questioned" at all. It appears to me you simply don't like their opinion. Condemning without fully understanding seems to me to be NO better than the so called "Thumpers" you are judging.
> 
> Your Brother
> John



Thanks Brother.

To set the record straight, R. Albert Mohler is the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville Kentucky.  There are six seminaries affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest Protestant denomination in the United States.  While he is highly respected as a theological scholar, he is not the "pope" of the SBC.  He's an administrator.  And in my twelve years living in Louisville I never met a single Southern Baptist who saw him as infalliable. 

He issues statements like this from time to time, and some of them fly and some don't.  The SBC is noted for its conservatism, but a couple of his pronouncements sank like a stone in his faith community - like his 1999 call for wives to "submit themselves graciously" to their husbands.  That pissed off a lot of christians in Kentucky as much as anywhere else.  Some were even embarrassed to call themselves southern baptist when that came out.

So no, the concept of "sheeple" doesn't enter into this particular conversation.  16 million people aren't going to drop everything and run screaming out if their local YMCA just because some seminary president has an overly broad view of what constitutes a spiritual practice, any more than they would all suddenly become teatotallers at his word.  People think for themselves.  A genuine doctrinal automaton is extremely rare, and it's unfair to paint any general demographic with a brush like that.


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## Yondanchris

clfsean said:


> Huh?
> 
> Because I read a theological text, doesn't make me a member of the sect.
> 
> Because I visit a place deemed "holy" or any other theological reference, doesn't make me a member of the sect.
> 
> Because I practice a martial art that's grounded in a theology, doesn't make me an adherent to it.
> 
> Because you practice yoga, doesn't make you a devotee of Hinduism, Buddhism or anything else.
> 
> This guy is pushing his thoughts & values out to everybody as "I know & you don't". Being raised in the South & around Southern baptists... I kinda got an idea a little.


 
I am a Southern Baptist Pastor, so I see where he is coming from. For those who claim to follow Jesus, his advice and thoughts are sound. But for everyone else it is entirely up to you, here in the US we have religious freedom so this Pastor's opinion is just as valuable as your opinion that you post here on MT. Just remember the audience he is speaking to and weather or not that includes yourself....so many things are taken out of context because people will not take the time to read and understand the who,where,what,when,how, and why!!

BUT.....we can not forget that everything from Yoga to MA is rooted in some sort of religion (read...way to get to god) that Is why I remove the tradidional references and teach Christian Martial Arts!! Jesus said "I am the WAY ("do"), the TRUTH, and the Light, NONE come to the Father (GOD) except by me" and I stand upon that objective TRUTH with two feet. 

My humble .02 cents, 

Chris


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## Yondanchris

clfsean said:


> That's cool. You don't, I do.
> 
> If they're not strong enough to question (and there have been plenty that have) then they fit the role.
> 
> Anybody who blindly follows somebody in that position (in any organized religion) without questioning, deserves the title.


 
But even as Jesus said that sheep need a shepheard to guide them, that is why there are Pastors and Elders leading Christian churches. I do believe that my congregation has the right to examine what I preach. As long as my preaching/teaching is Biblical they *should* follow it. If i am going off the deep and and leading them astray they should can me ASAP!! 

Some sheep are insecure and they can latch to teachers, thats when it is our job to train and teach them to be Biblicaly literate so they understand what Jesus said for themselves.....I am not interested in being like the Catholic church and keeping the Bible only for the clergy and creating their own "doctrine" based on 50% man's rules and 50% scripture! Thats why the reformation and prodestant church came about......ok ok im preaching again.....already did that this morning....


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## WC_lun

The guy has a right to his opinion.  He hasn't said no one who practices yoga are not welcome as a Christian...or a Baptist Christian.  He says he believes it is breaking a commandment.  That's fine.  People have to make up thier own minds about that.  I would respect a person's decision either way.


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## Brother John

WC_lun said:


> The guy has a right to his opinion.  He hasn't said no one who practices yoga are not welcome as a Christian...or a Baptist Christian.  He says he believes it is breaking a commandment.  That's fine.  People have to make up thier own minds about that.  I would respect a person's decision either way.


Excellent point. 
I believe that it's my responsibility as a Christian to strive to be obedient to God to the best of my ability and to not violate my own conscience or that of my brothers/sisters in Christ. IF I feel that something IS a sin...yet I do it, then I AM sinning. Simple as that. IF this pastor feels that doing authentic yoga is a sin and he had done yoga in the past, repentance would be the scriptural solution. 

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John

Nidanchris said:


> But even as Jesus said that sheep need a shepheard to guide them, that is why there are Pastors and Elders leading Christian churches. I do believe that my congregation has the right to examine what I preach. As long as my preaching/teaching is Biblical they *should* follow it. If i am going off the deep and and leading them astray they should can me ASAP!!
> 
> Some sheep are insecure and they can latch to teachers, thats when it is our job to train and teach them to be Biblicaly literate so they understand what Jesus said for themselves


saying this mostly to others as I'm sure that "Pastor NidanChris" (funny to put those together) is very likely to know this better than I....
but one group of people from the first century Christian Church that are often held up in HIGH regard for their discernment about their teachers were the Berean's. They're often held as a shining example of how Christian's should discern the messages of their leaders (such as this theology prof.s position on Yoga):
found in Acts 17:11 (NIV) it says:


> Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for  they received the message with great eagerness and examined the  Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.


 Though they were EAGER to receive, they didn't just swallow whatever the apostle Paul said just because of who he was or his great renown or because he was trained in law & rhetoric and could put together one FINE sermon.... they checked things out for themselves. THAT should be the standard operating procedure for a Christian. Granted.... it isn't always. We fail. But like Paul himself said in "Romans 14:5  


> Let each be convinced *in his own mind*.


 (emphasis mine)
We all should exercise some tolerance though toward each other and NOT assume that just because someone IS 'convinced' in their own mind that this theological-thinker is correct that they've NOT "examined the scriptures" and decided for themselves....instead of asserting that they're a mindless woolen flock-animal. 

_ME_? 
I like Yoga. _I enjoy it_., and I'm a passionately dedicated, Bible believing, baptized and born-again Christian. 
I *do not* do those 'branches' of yoga that I DO believe would conflict with my faith...
and ya know what, Nobody whom I train in yoga with, instructors or fellow classmates, cares _one whit_ one way or the other. 

Your Brother
John


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## Yondanchris

brother john said:


> saying this mostly to others as i'm sure that "pastor nidanchris" (funny to put those together) is very likely to know this better than i....
> But one group of people from the first century christian church that are often held up in high regard for their discernment about their teachers were the berean's. They're often held as a shining example of how christian's should discern the messages of their leaders (such as this theology prof.s position on yoga):
> Found in acts 17:11 (niv) it says:
> Though they were eager to receive, they didn't just swallow whatever the apostle paul said just because of who he was or his great renown or because he was trained in law & rhetoric and could put together one fine sermon.... They checked things out for themselves. That should be the standard operating procedure for a christian. Granted.... It isn't always. We fail. But like paul himself said in "romans 14:5
> (emphasis mine)
> we all should exercise some tolerance though toward each other and not assume that just because someone is 'convinced' in their own mind that this theological-thinker is correct that they've not "examined the scriptures" and decided for themselves....instead of asserting that they're a mindless woolen flock-animal. :d
> 
> _me_?
> I like yoga. _i enjoy it_., and i'm a passionately dedicated, bible believing, baptized and born-again christian.
> I *do not* do those 'branches' of yoga that i do believe would conflict with my faith...
> And ya know what, nobody whom i train in yoga with, instructors or fellow classmates, cares _one whit_ one way or the other. :d
> 
> your brother
> john



amen!!!


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## Shai Hulud

CoryKS said:


> Yoga: the flexibility exercise of SATAN!!!


The devil must love those contortionist body-pretzel positions. Needs to keep limber to keep the embers aglow.


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## crushing

CoryKS said:


> Yoga: the flexibility exercise of SATAN!!!



So grab a Monster Energy drink and do some yoga!

Monster Energy Drinks Promote Satan, Viral Video Claims


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## Xue Sheng




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