# Groin Kicks



## tsdclaflin

Am I the only TSD instructor that teaches the groin kick?  

I was not taught it but it is a good kick and if I expect my students to be able to deploy it in a self-defense situation then they should practice it in class.

What do you think?


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## jks9199

What's different between a front kick targeting the groin and a groin kick?


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## Dirty Dog

Personally, I think the groin kick is overrated. I don't think it's nearly as effective as Hollywood would have us believe. Ive seen too many people, and been kicked too many times, to think of it as anything other than a good way to piss someone off.

Personally, I'd be more inclined to strike to the knee, or the femoral nerve. Not the sack.


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## Cyriacus

Dirty Dog said:


> Personally, I think the groin kick is overrated. I don't think it's nearly as effective as Hollywood would have us believe. Ive seen too many people, and been kicked too many times, to think of it as anything other than a good way to piss someone off.
> 
> Personally, I'd be more inclined to strike to the knee, or the femoral nerve. Not the sack.



Absolutely. Thats My experience also.


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## seasoned

The groin kick when done correctly incorporates the pelvic bone which when hit with focus can be very debilitating. 
A groin kick should never be done alone, but followed with a high strike as their head comes forward.......... which it will.

It is a kick of opportunity, if you miss that opportunity THEN yes, you have a very bad situation now.........


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## Cirdan

jks9199 said:


> What's different between a front kick targeting the groin and a groin kick?



Not a TSDist, but the way I do it in Wado, the groin kick is an upward snap kick striking with the instep of the foot. Wheras a front kick wold require you to lift your knee more and strike in a more straight foreward motion inpacting with the ball of your foot.

It is one of the first kick we teach along with the front kick and the roundhouse.


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## Instructor

I am obviously not a Tang Soo Do practitioner, however for what it's worth in Hapkido we don't consider groin attacks to be an attack of the genitals.  Rather we are trying to shatter the pelvic arch:

http://www.hapkido-online.com/breakaways.html

You can see a graphic below the heading 'down and strike'.


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## tsdclaflin

Thanks Wado and Hapkido.  You made my point.  For some reason, in TSD we have under-rated the upward snap of a groin kick.  While living in MT, I could only compete in "open" tournaments where groin shots scored.  My Kenpo brothers used the kick very effectively and it got me to thinking.

Like any other kick, it can fail.  But it is easy to teach and easy to practice and when done correctly will stop 80% of men and many women.

I thought I would just "stir the pot" and get my TSD family to thinking....

Thanks everyone for your thoughts and your time.

Tang Soo!


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## Manny

Dirty Dog said:


> Personally, I think the groin kick is overrated. I don't think it's nearly as effective as Hollywood would have us believe. Ive seen too many people, and been kicked too many times, to think of it as anything other than a good way to piss someone off.
> 
> Personally, I'd be more inclined to strike to the knee, or the femoral nerve. Not the sack.



In the other hand I've seen many times a groing kick send the ofender to the ground, in fact one time I use one, I remeber my instep hiting precisely and squarely the other guy in the nuts and he went down in tears. I have taken some kicks to the jewels and believe it hurts like hell.

Manny


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## DennisBreene

In my training, groin strikes of all types where taught.  Particularly in self defense, the more techniques at your disposal the better. In addition, in traditional one-step-sparing our approach was slightly less traditional.  We never learned one step technique number 1,2,3....etc. We were told the attack and the first defensive technique and then followed with techniques that were appropriate given the resultant position of the attacker and defender.  We informally called these "If you want to's" after our master's teaching style; which was to demonstrate an initial defense and counter and then a series of techniques based on targets of opportunity, which he always preceded with "if you want to".  I believe that this form of training instilled more of a conditioned and reflexive response to an attack with smooth follow through on a series of counter attacks.  I've always wondered if I would have more trouble reacting if I had to remember what technique number 4 was rather than simply responding to the attack as it unfolded.

Sorry if that wandered away from the discussion of groin kicks. I believe that no single technique is without merit.  You never know what opportunity will present itself.

Dennis


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## dancingalone

seasoned said:


> The groin kick when done correctly incorporates the pelvic bone which when hit with focus can be very debilitating.




I would also add that the bladder was the actual target in Okinawan karate much of the time rather than the groin or testes.  You damage the bladder by going through the pelvic bone, and this could very well be a fatal blow in the 19th century without the modern medical procedures available now.

In fact, there is a story, apocryphal or not, out there about Ryu Ryu Ko, the Chinese teacher of Kanryo Higaonna/Higashionna, where he killed a student of his with a kick to the bladder area.

But surely we've all been nailed in the nads before?  I've been blasted with one before unintentionally in sparring and it completely took me out.  Very painful... nauseatingly so in fact.  I think the groin is a good target to train to hit.


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## seasoned

dancingalone said:


> I would also add that the bladder was the actual target in Okinawan karate much of the time rather than the groin or testes.  You damage the bladder by going through the pelvic bone, and this could very well be a fatal blow in the 19th century without the modern medical procedures available now.
> 
> In fact, there is a story, apocryphal or not, out there about Ryu Ryu Ko, the Chinese teacher of Kanryo Higaonna/Higashionna, where he killed a student of his with a kick to the bladder area.
> 
> But surely we've all been nailed in the nads before?  I've been blasted with one before unintentionally in sparring and it completely took me out.  Very painful... nauseatingly so in fact.  I think the groin is a good target to train to hit.


Yes, I fully agree.


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## jks9199

dancingalone said:


> I would also add that the bladder was the actual target in Okinawan karate much of the time rather than the groin or testes.  You damage the bladder by going through the pelvic bone, and this could very well be a fatal blow in the 19th century without the modern medical procedures available now.
> 
> In fact, there is a story, apocryphal or not, out there about Ryu Ryu Ko, the Chinese teacher of Kanryo Higaonna/Higashionna, where he killed a student of his with a kick to the bladder area.
> 
> But surely we've all been nailed in the nads before?  I've been blasted with one before unintentionally in sparring and it completely took me out.  Very painful... nauseatingly so in fact.  I think the groin is a good target to train to hit.



As a pain-target or even a simple target in and of itself, the groin is unreliable.  How many times have you been hit there and it had little or no effect?  

If you can rely on the strike penetrating through and shattering the pelvis or damaging the bladder -- sure.  But even though I've got confidence in my ability to drive the kick through, it's still not in my arsenal of reliable techniques.


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## dancingalone

jks9199 said:


> As a pain-target or even a simple target in and of itself, the groin is unreliable.  How many times have you been hit there and it had little or no effect?


I'm probably not a good test for evidence of efficacy one way or another as I only have anecdotal stories of my own.  I'll only say this.  I've been hit hard there once and yes I was incapacitated.  In high school I was in the bottom of a football pile up and someone squeezed my junk hard to get me to let go of the ball.  It worked.





jks9199 said:


> If you can rely on the strike penetrating through and shattering the pelvis or damaging the bladder -- sure.  But even though I've got confidence in my ability to drive the kick through, it's still not in my arsenal of reliable techniques.


This is something we specifically train for in my brand of karate.  Will it ultimately work and be 'reliable'?  Dunno.  I've never had to kick someone and try to damage their bladder for real.  We do kick a lot of targets and heavy bags and we use the Redman training suit more than a few times a year to let everyone get the experience of actually hitting a live, aggressive attacker.  I don't know how else to train to make such a kick 'reliable'.

I should also add that it's only one more tool to use.  Certainly I don't advocate the one bullet in the chamber idea.


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## seasoned

Out of necessity I have used the groin kick a number of time"s with great success. We train two ways, one with the ball of the foot, with a hard snapping motion. The other with the heel of the foot, with the toes pointing up. The heel kick is done with a hard thrusting motion. 
I have found many parts of the body to be unreliable or unresponsive to pain. In my mind it ain't over until it's over, and until then I will use whatever I can to accomplish my objective "win". Some targets like the knee will cause much damage, as seen in many football games, and is without question a great target area to hit. The groin as a single hit will allow the aggressor time to recover if not placed well, so the secret is to never rely on a one technique strategy, but to capitalize on the reaction accomplished by any strike. 

Side note, I have seen people go down while wearing a groin protector, and in Okinawa seen sensei take full hard shots to the groin area with no effect. "Not a parlor trick, but for real".


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## Touch Of Death

I think the best way to defend against something is to know how to attack with it.


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## Manny

One time doing kyorugy I got a snap kick to the tip of the pènis, if I recall well the toe of my partner hit me like a whip in the tip of my penis and pain went to the tip of the penis trough the entire penis to the kidney, Oh boy and it was just a slap I went to the floor on tears and need some time to recoery, my master thought the kick bas on the balls but it 3was actuali the tip of the penis and the pain got trough to the kidney.

And... believe nobody wants to been caught in the nuts with a hit or kick.
Manny


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## Cyriacus

Ive been stomp kicked square in the middle of the groin (Poor Balance on the other persons part), hitting a little bit of everything. It was uncomfortable, but not only was it not debilitating, but it subsided after 45ish seconds. Ive also been kneed, and it was about as effective (or not).

Now, Im not calling the strike ineffective. Im calling it utterly unreliable.


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## DennisBreene

Having been the recipient of groin kicks while wearing a cup, I can tell you they only offer partial protection.  I attempted to do some research via medical sites on pelvic fractures. I am curious as to how much force would be required to fracture the pubic arch and injure the bladder.  Unfortunately I could not find any studies where this issue was directly tested but I think the cause of such fractures in the real world is helpful.  It seems the majority are from car and motorcycle accidents and pubic fractures seem to be less common than other areas of the pelvis. Partially because of its relatively protected location.  My impression was that the blunt force trauma fractures were the result of fairly severe impact and I suspect that kicking and fracturing the pubic arch would be relatively difficult, both from a force and accuracy perspective.  I suspect many of us would not have the requisite skill to accomplish such a level of trauma. Fortunately, causing crippling pain to the gonads is much less difficult and a viable target of opportunity in the right situation. Dennis 





seasoned said:


> Out of necessity I have used the groin kick a number of time"s with great success. We train two ways, one with the ball of the foot, with a hard snapping motion. The other with the heel of the foot, with the toes pointing up. The heel kick is done with a hard thrusting motion.
> I have found many parts of the body to be unreliable or unresponsive to pain. In my mind it ain't over until it's over, and until then I will use whatever I can to accomplish my objective "win". Some targets like the knee will cause much damage, as seen in many football games, and is without question a great target area to hit. The groin as a single hit will allow the aggressor time to recover if not placed well, so the secret is to never rely on a one technique strategy, but to capitalize on the reaction accomplished by any strike.
> 
> Side note, I have seen people go down while wearing a groin protector, and in Okinawa seen sensei take full hard shots to the groin area with no effect. "Not a parlor trick, but for real".


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## MaxRob

Dirty Dog said:


> Personally, I think the groin kick is overrated. I don't think it's nearly as effective as Hollywood would have us believe. Ive seen too many people, and been kicked too many times, to think of it as anything other than a good way to piss someone off.
> 
> Personally, I'd be more inclined to strike to the knee, or the femoral nerve. Not the sack.


I Agree over many years of studying self defense , those conditioned or with high pain threshold can in fact  use once hit there and overcome  it counterstrike very effectively and with surprise!


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## reeskm

Cirdan said:


> Not a TSDist, but the way I do it in Wado, the groin kick is an upward snap kick striking with the instep of the foot. Wheras a front kick wold require you to lift your knee more and strike in a more straight foreward motion inpacting with the ball of your foot.
> 
> It is one of the first kick we teach along with the front kick and the roundhouse.



This is the way we do it also. We sometimes call it a "punt kick" and anybody that plays soccer or football should be able to do this very well with great power.

Agreed that you will want to make sure you follow up with another strike as the attacker will most likely be bending over towards you.

And, agreed that you have a very limited opportunity to strike and you want to make sure you use the element of surprise to your benefit.

It is also effective to use this technique when attempting to defend yourself in other situations and you cannot get out of a grab or hold (choke hold, wrist grab, etc). It is also not the only technique possible, and on some people may not get the results you desire. In which case, give that attacker some more gifts!!! :hammer:


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## drop bear

I Train it by throwing an inner thigh kick and defend it the same way. 

Worse comes to worse and I throw an inside thigh rather than a groin. No great loss there. Throw a right hand straight after it.


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## ST1Doppelganger

I personally prefer attacking the bladder since it disrupts the opponents balance due to the bladder pretty much being the center of the body. 

Groin kicks do have their purpose since you are attacking an external organ that does have allot of pain compliance. In my opinion allot of martial artist have the false sense of security that giving an opponents groin a love tap with a kick is going to drop them which isn't true.


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## Runs With Fire

In my training in Tung Soo Do we are taught that a forward push kick and front/snap kick are good for striking the pelvis/bladder. I didn"t train with any one kick dedicated to any one area.


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## Michaelz

Cirdan said:


> Not a TSDist, but the way I do it in Wado, the groin kick is an upward snap kick striking with the instep of the foot. Wheras a front kick wold require you to lift your knee more and strike in a more straight foreward motion inpacting with the ball of your foot.
> 
> It is one of the first kick we teach along with the front kick and the roundhouse.


I think the instep kick is the more safe option because you will connect with some part of the scrotum. But a toe kick direct into the testicles can be much more devastating


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## Bill Mattocks

Michaelz said:


> I think the instep kick is the more safe option because you will connect with some part of the scrotum. But a toe kick direct into the testicles can be much more devastating



Welcome to MT!

You may wish to introduce yourself to others.

As this is a very old thread, I have read over it and I agree with those who say that a) the testicles are not a reliable target, and b) the target of a groin kick should not be the testicles.  They just happen to be in the way when you attempt to collapse their pelvic bone.  Some people can take a shot to the pills.  But not many can run after you if you shatter their pelvic girdle.


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## Tony Dismukes

Since I missed this discussion when it came up originally...

My only problem with groin attacks is when people start thinking that the groin is some sort of magical "I win" button. It isn't. You _might_ drop someone with a good groin shot - or they might show no reaction at all. It depends on a lot of factors including how hard you hit, the exact angle of the kick, what parts of the anatomy get caught up in the impact, and how much ramped up your opponent is on adrenaline, alcohol, or other drugs. I've seen someone take about a dozen hard shots to the groin in a fight and show no reaction at the time except getting more pissed off. About a half-hour later I saw him sitting on his locker and moaning miserably to himself, but that did nothing to help his opponent at the time of the fight.

That said, you can't count on _any_ strike to be a guaranteed fight-ender, even if it lands on a vital spot of the anatomy. If you hit hard, hit in combinations, hit to vulnerable targets, and protect yourself while doing so then you have a decent chance of winning a fight. Groin strikes can be part of that process. If nothing else, an opponent who is thinking about protecting his groin may leave openings elsewhere.


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## Bill Mattocks

Tony Dismukes said:


> Since I missed this discussion when it came up originally...
> 
> My only problem with groin attacks is when people start thinking that the groin is some sort of magical "I win" button. It isn't. You _might_ drop someone with a good groin shot - or they might show no reaction at all. It depends on a lot of factors including how hard you hit, the exact angle of the kick, what parts of the anatomy get caught up in the impact, and how much ramped up your opponent is on adrenaline, alcohol, or other drugs. I've seen someone take about a dozen hard shots to the groin in a fight and show no reaction at the time except getting more pissed off. About a half-hour later I saw him sitting on his locker and moaning miserably to himself, but that did nothing to help his opponent at the time of the fight.
> 
> That said, you can't count on _any_ strike to be a guaranteed fight-ender, even if it lands on a vital spot of the anatomy. If you hit hard, hit in combinations, hit to vulnerable targets, and protect yourself while doing so then you have a decent chance of winning a fight. Groin strikes can be part of that process. If nothing else, an opponent who is thinking about protecting his groin may leave openings elsewhere.



I agree with all of that, but I'd like to emphasize that in my dojo, we don't learn to kick the groin, per se.  As others have mentioned, our 'groin kick' is a penetrating kick to the inside of the body, the core, in the groin region.  The testicles are just in the way.  If they get obliterated, great.  If not, also great - our goal is to destroy the pelvis.

I think that many 'groin kickers' aim for the testicles; it's a surface kick, not designed to penetrate.  That, as you said, is a mistake when so many people these days are addled on drugs or otherwise unable to process pain to that region at the moment of impact.  But broken bones are broken bones.  When you cannot stand up because your pelvis is shattered, the fight is truly over.


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## Touch Of Death

jks9199 said:


> What's different between a front kick targeting the groin and a groin kick?


Range.


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## Tony Dismukes

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree with all of that, but I'd like to emphasize that in my dojo, we don't learn to kick the groin, per se.  As others have mentioned, our 'groin kick' is a penetrating kick to the inside of the body, the core, in the groin region.  The testicles are just in the way.  If they get obliterated, great.  If not, also great - our goal is to destroy the pelvis.
> 
> I think that many 'groin kickers' aim for the testicles; it's a surface kick, not designed to penetrate.  That, as you said, is a mistake when so many people these days are addled on drugs or otherwise unable to process pain to that region at the moment of impact.  But broken bones are broken bones.  When you cannot stand up because your pelvis is shattered, the fight is truly over.


I actually have no idea of how much force it would take to shatter the pelvis with a kick and I have no idea how to practically test such a thing. There seems to be a shortage of volunteers at my school lining up to be experimental subjects. That said, if you kick with that kind of intent I think it will produce more damaging results either way.


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## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> I actually have no idea of how much force it would take to shatter the pelvis with a kick and I have no idea how to practically test such a thing. There seems to be a shortage of volunteers at my school lining up to be experimental subjects. That said, if you kick with that kind of intent I think it will produce more damaging results either way.



A lot. A WHOLE lot. That being said, the pelvis is a great big structure, and some parts of it have an awful lot more bone than others. 
The area of the pelvis most likely to be impacted by the classic soccer kick to the groin certainly contains less bone than other areas. But I cannot recall ever seeing a pelvic fracture resulting from a kick.


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## MAfreak

tsdclaflin said:


> Am I the only TSD instructor that teaches the groin kick?
> 
> I was not taught it but it is a good kick and if I expect my students to be able to deploy it in a self-defense situation then they should practice it in class.
> 
> What do you think?



isn't tang soo do a karate style? karate itself has its own groin kick called kin geri (not to confuse with front kicks called mae geri) its a snapping upwards (not pushing forwards) kick with the instep or shin directly between the legs.

underestimating the groin kick is kinda stupid btw. it even can bring you to collapse. but okay, sometimes people have to say something special to get attention i guess.


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## Bill Mattocks

Dirty Dog said:


> A lot. A WHOLE lot. That being said, the pelvis is a great big structure, and some parts of it have an awful lot more bone than others.
> The area of the pelvis most likely to be impacted by the classic soccer kick to the groin certainly contains less bone than other areas. But I cannot recall ever seeing a pelvic fracture resulting from a kick.



Apparently has happened though.

Pelvic fracture following karate kick.  - PubMed - NCBI


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## Touch Of Death

MAfreak said:


> isn't tang soo do a karate style? karate itself has its own groin kick called kin geri (not to confuse with front kicks called mae geri) its a snapping upwards (not pushing forwards) kick with the instep or shin directly between the legs.
> 
> underestimating the groin kick is kinda stupid btw. it even can bring you to collapse. but okay, sometimes people have to say something special to get attention i guess.


Snark much?


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## Dirty Dog

Bill Mattocks said:


> Apparently has happened though.
> 
> Pelvic fracture following karate kick.  - PubMed - NCBI



Sure. Just not at all common.


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## Touch Of Death

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Just not at all common.


Even a bruised pubic bonne sucks, man...


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## Dirty Dog

Touch Of Death said:


> Even a bruised pubic bonne sucks, man...



Sure does. I recommend not blocking with your face, or your groin.


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## Michaelz

Manny said:


> One time doing kyorugy I got a snap kick to the tip of the pènis, if I recall well the toe of my partner hit me like a whip in the tip of my penis and pain went to the tip of the penis trough the entire penis to the kidney, Oh boy and it was just a slap I went to the floor on tears and need some time to recoery, my master thought the kick bas on the balls but it 3was actuali the tip of the penis and the pain got trough to the kidney.
> 
> And... believe nobody wants to been caught in the nuts with a hit or kick.
> Manny


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## Michaelz

My training has showed me that a strike to the groin is very important to avoid the penis so the force of strike gos straight into the testicles. Your penis and your kidney will hurt for a short time but you're testicles will hurt much worse and for a longer time.


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## Michaelz

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree with all of that, but I'd like to emphasize that in my dojo, we don't learn to kick the groin, per se.  As others have mentioned, our 'groin kick' is a penetrating kick to the inside of the body, the core, in the groin region.  The testicles are just in the way.  If they get obliterated, great.  If not, also great - our goal is to destroy the pelvis.
> 
> I think that many 'groin kickers' aim for the testicles; it's a surface kick, not designed to penetrate.  That, as you said, is a mistake when so many people these days are addled on drugs or otherwise unable to process pain to that region at the moment of impact.  But broken bones are broken bones.  When you cannot stand up because your pelvis is shattered, the fight is truly over.


Ok, I'm not saying that your wrong but the worst pain I ever came to feel was last year in Belize it happened when I came out of the ocean and to local kids came up to me to ask for directions. I glanced away for a second and one of the boys kicked me squarelly in my scrotum. I was only wearing a swim suit so I did not have any guard for my testicles. Thr pain was extremely bad and I had to go to the clinic. The clinic nurse had to push my left testicle from my pelvis back in to my scrotum. The pain was horrible.
I have three times broken arms, and several other broken bones also. It is always extremely painful if you have a broken bone but the pain in the testicles is much worse if done by a good fighter.


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## Touch Of Death

Michaelz said:


> My training has showed me that a strike to the groin is very important to avoid the penis so the force of strike gos straight into the testicles. Your penis and your kidney will hurt for a short time but you're testicles will hurt much worse and for a longer time.


Yeah, I suppose, but if the are wearing a cup, aim for the side; so that it cuts their leg.


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## Bill Mattocks

Michaelz said:


> Ok, I'm not saying that your wrong but the worst pain I ever came to feel was last year in Belize it happened when I came out of the ocean and to local kids came up to me to ask for directions. I glanced away for a second and one of the boys kicked me squarelly in my scrotum. I was only wearing a swim suit so I did not have any guard for my testicles. Thr pain was extremely bad and I had to go to the clinic. The clinic nurse had to push my left testicle from my pelvis back in to my scrotum. The pain was horrible.
> I have three times broken arms, and several other broken bones also. It is always extremely painful if you have a broken bone but the pain in the testicles is much worse if done by a good fighter.



I did not say that getting kicked in the testicles did not hurt.

What I said was that some people, depending on circumstances, are able to ignore the pain and continue to fight.

People on drugs are well-known for being able to ignore debilitating injuries, at least temporarily.  As a former law enforcement officer, I have personally witnessed people ignoring being hit in the groin, beat on with nightsticks, and being sprayed directly in the face with Mace.

Personally, if I get kicked in the wedding tackle, I'm liable to keel over and puke my guts out.  But not everyone does.

That is why we aim our kicks to break the pelvis.  The testicles are in the way - they will be demolished as well - but that's not the target, they are just in the way of the kick so they get taken out too.


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## jondoe297

Bill Mattocks said:


> As a former law enforcement officer, I have personally witnessed people ignoring being hit in the groin, beat on with nightsticks, and being sprayed directly in the face with Mace.


As a current one, I reiterate all the points that you make. Any one of, or combination of; mental illness, "chemical courage", or just outright determination can make a person endure tremendous amounts of pain, almost to the point of seeming immune to it.

I learned the hard way that a solid shot to a person's groin isn't a fight stopper. Many years ago, when I was a young, cocky 1st Dan, I found myself in a fight with two equally young (and equally cocky) sailors, who seemed bent on a night of causing trouble. Sailor #1 charged at me, was met by a solid front kick to the groin, and was unaffected by it. He proceeded to barrel over me, which resulted in me on my back, getting pummeled by two people. I look back on that incident as a "training moment".


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