# Should Students under the Age of 16 be Black Belts?



## Black Belt Jedi (Aug 20, 2011)

This topic can be quite a popular one when talking about Martial Arts in the modern world. I was wondering if any of you agree if Karate students under 16 should be Black Belts? I see that being a Black Belt has so much responsibility from not only teaching classes for all age groups, but having the right attitude and being a good role model for others.

Any thoughts?


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2011)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> This topic can be quite a popular one when talking about Martial Arts in the modern world. I was wondering if any of you agree if Karate students under 16 should be Black Belts? I see that being a Black Belt has so much responsibility from not only teaching classes for all age groups, but having the right attitude and being a good role model for others.
> 
> Any thoughts?



In a nutshell, no.  Does it happen?  Sadly, way too often.


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 20, 2011)

I don't think it's always unacceptable for younger teens to have black belts as long as they demonstrate the appropriate skill and attitude. Should they run classes, absolutely not. Adults don't want to be taught by kids, and kids don't have the  experience neccessary to handle a teaching position.

A youth black belt doesn't bother me as long as the expectations of him or her are no different than for those of an adult.


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## elder999 (Aug 20, 2011)

Wasn't unheard of even 35 years ago. I know when I made shodan (at 16) I was welcomed by more than a few others who were closer to 12....


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 20, 2011)

my karate history is a bit lacking, but Toshitsugu Takamatsu recived menkyo at the age of 13 in koto ryu and shinden fudo ryu, so even 100years ago it might not have been that uncommon.


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## Manny (Aug 20, 2011)

No.They should not, period. In TKD (the art I do) there is pletora of children firsth or second poom (the junior equivalent to 1st or 2nd dan) and believe they lack the training and understanding of the martial arts. I think the minimun age to become a shodan must be 16 and this only to kids that really deserve it as a special thing because of the trajectory, maturity and hard work.

I made my shodan at 20 and believe me I treasure that moment for ever something a kid must not, I did my nidan at 42 and it really makes me feel sad to see so youn kids having high grades in martial art.

The kids or the majprity of kids see martial arts like some kind of play, and it's not.

Manny


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## Cyriacus (Aug 21, 2011)

Personally, im all for the idea of Junior Black Belts. 
Being a Black Belt implies Understanding the Fundaments leading up to that point.
And i do not believe anyone under the Age of 16 can reasonably do that.
HOWEVER, holding a Student back due to their Age is unproductive. Hence, make them a Junior Black Belt. In other words, a Brown Belt who could pass a Black Belt Exam, and who wears a Black Belt with a White Stripe or something. Then, when hes old enough, he re-does the Exam to prove he hasnt lost his edge, and ranks up to Black Belt.

Just my contribution.


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## jks9199 (Aug 21, 2011)

Should students under 16 be promoted to black belt?

No. And yes.

No.  Not in my style.  We've set the minimum age as 18.  We backed it down from 21 a few years back.  That's been our choice, based on our expectations for black belts.

Yes, in some styles.  If their definition of black belt permits promotion at 16, and the student in question meets the criteria.

It really comes down to definitions of black belts.  There just is no one, solid definition of a black belt.  In some cases, black belts are expected to be teachers and to have mastered the art.  In others, it simply means you're ready for the advanced material.  At the outset, it was just a way to differentiate between beginners and "serious" students...

As a side note, to those commenting about various historic or legendary people being granted _menkyo kaiden_ or other similiar status at young ages...  The comparison isn't valid.  First, these were frequently people raised within the style, learning it from childhood on almost as pervasively as language or culture.  Second, the title isn't the same.  A _menkyo kaiden_ indicates full transmission and full teaching authority of the art.


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 21, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> As a side note, to those commenting about various historic or legendary people being granted _menkyo kaiden_ or other similiar status at young ages... The comparison isn't valid. First, these were frequently people raised within the style, learning it from childhood on almost as pervasively as language or culture. Second, the title isn't the same. A _menkyo kaiden_ indicates full transmission and full teaching authority of the art.



Yes but that's my point. If a 13 year old can be dedicated and obtain teaching authority, then a teen in today's age could very well be dedicated enough to at least earn his 1st dan. A child raised in martial arts with a desire and eagerness to learn, should be no different than the historical example I provided. Let's also not forget that having a 1st dan in no way makes a person an expert. It's really just evidence that the student has practiced the basic movements enough to begin a level of training that goes beyond the fundamentals. I think it is rare for a youth to be qualified enough to deserve a black belt, but then it was rare back in the day for a 13 year old to be qualified enough to be granted menkyo kaiden. I think the comparisons are quite valid.


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## SuperFLY (Aug 21, 2011)

we have a 13 year old 2nd dan black belt in our group. he doesnt often train at my dojo so i've only seen him a couple of times but when our usual assistant was off he was helping our sensei out and taking me through everything i needed for my grading.

im 29, he's 13 and he's teaching me.

its a little strange but he was professional, mature and made the proper comments to correct any stances, positions i wasnt doing correctly.

as long as they can not only show the skill but show the right mentality as well i see no reason why a minor cannot achieve black belt as someone over 16 would be able to


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## chinto (Aug 21, 2011)

THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS NO.  Importunately it does happen a lot.  I would say no black belt under 18 in at least North America as in that aria a black belt is seen as some kind of expert in unarmed combat.  It is not true of course, especially at shodan, but still police, judges and jurymen see it that way.  I think it puts the black belt under 18 in real risk of being treated as an adult after a confrontation at school or where ever that they other wise would not be.  with very negative resultes for that individual.

as to under 15 its usually ridiculous!   I have seen some who are under 10, and it would be laughable if not so sad.


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## stickarts (Aug 22, 2011)

Our younger students may earn a Junior Black Belt. We do have general guidelines regarding ranking and age, however, I take a close look at each student on a case by case basis too. Also, once a student reaches eligible age to test for full Black it doesn't necessarily mean that they automaticlaly will test. If they are ready they will, if not they will be told what is needed.


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## sfs982000 (Aug 22, 2011)

SuperFLY said:


> we have a 13 year old 2nd dan black belt in our group. he doesnt often train at my dojo so i've only seen him a couple of times but when our usual assistant was off he was helping our sensei out and taking me through everything i needed for my grading.
> 
> im 29, he's 13 and he's teaching me.
> 
> ...



I have a similar situation at my school, we have a 16 year old 3rd Dan, he doesn't actually teach any classes by himself, but he does assist when we break out into groups.  He does have a good head on his shoulders and acts very professionally for his age so I don't have a problem with him assisting when asked or needed.  
In regards to the OP question, I don't necessarily have a problem with kids under the age of 16 earning their black belt, but it also depends on the maturity level of the individual.  Some kids are more mature than others, but at the same time I would not expect those Jr. black belts to actually teach classes on thier own, without another qualified adult teacher.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 22, 2011)

SuperFLY said:


> we have a 13 year old 2nd dan black belt in our group. he doesnt often train at my dojo so i've only seen him a couple of times but when our usual assistant was off he was helping our sensei out and taking me through everything i needed for my grading.
> 
> im 29, he's 13 and he's teaching me.
> 
> ...


Quick Question - Was he correcting things in a way that implied that he just had a damn good Memory, or in a way that implied that he understood what he was Correcting?
Just a detail.


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## elder999 (Aug 22, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Quick Question - Was he correcting things in a way that implied that he just had a damn good Memory, or in a way that implied that he understood what he was Correcting?
> Just a detail.



Quick question-how in the world would a _student_ know and tell the difference?
Just a detail.


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## MJS (Aug 22, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Personally, im all for the idea of Junior Black Belts.
> Being a Black Belt implies Understanding the Fundaments leading up to that point.
> And i do not believe anyone under the Age of 16 can reasonably do that.
> HOWEVER, holding a Student back due to their Age is unproductive. Hence, make them a Junior Black Belt. In other words, a Brown Belt who could pass a Black Belt Exam, and who wears a Black Belt with a White Stripe or something. Then, when hes old enough, he re-does the Exam to prove he hasnt lost his edge, and ranks up to Black Belt.
> ...



IMO, I'd rather see a Jr. BB being used, rather than a 5yo 2nd degree, which is a joke!  Personally, I'm not in favor of kids under 12 training anyways, but thats another thread.  So, for discussion purposes....kid starts training at age 10.  God forbid he/she actually waits, instead of getting upset because the 'time standards' have elapsed, give them the Jr. BB.  When they're old enough, mature enough, for the full BB, they take an adult BB test.


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## MJS (Aug 22, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Yes but that's my point. If a 13 year old can be dedicated and obtain teaching authority, then a teen in today's age could very well be dedicated enough to at least earn his 1st dan. A child raised in martial arts with a desire and eagerness to learn, should be no different than the historical example I provided. Let's also not forget that having a 1st dan in no way makes a person an expert. It's really just evidence that the student has practiced the basic movements enough to begin a level of training that goes beyond the fundamentals. I think it is rare for a youth to be qualified enough to deserve a black belt, but then it was rare back in the day for a 13 year old to be qualified enough to be granted menkyo kaiden. I think the comparisons are quite valid.



Good points.  I'm sure there are those 'rare' cases, but if I were to walk into a dojo, and was taught by someone young enough to be my child, they damn well better be capable of answering more than 50% of any questions I ask.  If they can't, then IMO, they have no business wearing a BB.  No, the BB doesnt make someone an expert, though thats the impression it gives, but if you're going to wear it, you better be able to meet some sort of standards.


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## jks9199 (Aug 22, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Quick question-how in the world would a _student_ know and tell the difference?
> Just a detail.



"No, no, it's full step - rising block - punch" vs.  "No, it's a full step.  See, how that gets you out of the way?  Rising block -- because the attack is coming from this line or this line.  (If it was here, you could do this instead...)"

In other words -- some depth of knowledge and understanding can be perceived, even by someone who doesn't know it themselves yet.


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## elder999 (Aug 22, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> "No, no, it's full step - rising block - punch" vs. "No, it's a full step. See, how that gets you out of the way? Rising block -- because the attack is coming from this line or this line. (If it was here, you could do this instead...)"
> 
> In other words -- some depth of knowledge and understanding can be perceived, even by someone who doesn't know it themselves yet.



Maybe, but:



SuperFLY said:


> we have a 13 year old 2nd dan black belt in our group. he doesnt often train at my dojo so i've only seen him a couple of times but when our usual assistant was off he was helping our sensei out and taking me through everything i needed for my grading.
> 
> im 29, he's 13 and he's teaching me.
> 
> ...



Based on what he said, what's the difference?Just for arguments sake, let's say he was only pointing out how bent the knee should be in a front stance, or hand placements, or some such, rather than movements-how is a student supposed to tell? 

More to the point, it would depend an awful lot on how their teacher taught movements and stances himself-and, if they were_ taught _that kind of understanding, they'd have that understanding _before_ being ranked shodan, wouldn't they?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2011)

In *Instinctive Response Training* the juniors or younger people that I teach are striving simply to get better.  They may be promoted once a year or twice.  There goal is to improve and truthfully ranks are not very important.  My goal for them is that when they reach eighteen they will be able to achieve an adult rank in our system.  After that if they have the skill sets and the drive they probably will advance fairly quickly and also have tremendous depth of knowledge at that point as well.  The model I use is similar to that used in Brazilian Jiujitsu with a seperate ranking system for kids and teens.  So they are achieving and learning appropriately and as they mature they move into the adult system and continue on.  This definitely helps with quality control!  So far while I teach only a few kids and teens it has worked perfectly!  Kids/Teens: white, yellow, oarnge, green with stripes in between. (ie. green belt/blue stripe)  Adults: White, blue, red and black!  We do not put a major emphasis whether teens or adults on rank.  Instead the emphasis is on treating everyone the same.  Everyone goes by their first name and simply just improving and getting better! 

 Our curriculum is also geared towards age appropriate material at every level!
*
So far this has worked great!*


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## elder999 (Aug 22, 2011)

..and I should add that the youngest I've ever allowed to *start* training was 13. While that may change down the road, it's kept all of this from being any kind of issue for me.....


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## MJS (Aug 22, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In *Instinctive Response Training* the juniors or younger people that I teach are striving simply to get better.  They may be promoted once a year or twice.  There goal is to improve and truthfully ranks are not very important.  My goal for them is that when they reach eighteen they will be able to achieve an adult rank in our system.  After that if they have the skill sets and the drive they probably will advance fairly quickly and also have tremendous depth of knowledge at that point as well.  The model I use is similar to that used in Brazilian Jiujitsu with a seperate ranking system for kids and teens.  So they are achieving and learning appropriately and as they mature they move into the adult system and continue on.  This definitely helps with quality control!  So far while I teach only a few kids and teens it has worked perfectly!  Kids/Teens: white, yellow, oarnge, green with stripes in between. (ie. green belt/blue stripe)  Adults: White, blue, red and black!  We do not put a major emphasis whether teens or adults on rank.  Instead the emphasis is on treating everyone the same.  Everyone goes by their first name and simply just improving and getting better!
> 
> Our curriculum is also geared towards age appropriate material at every level!
> *
> So far this has worked great!*



Brian,

A few questions for you.

1) What age do you accept kids?

2) When they're old enough to move into the adult class, how much material do they need to catch up on?


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## jks9199 (Aug 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> Brian,
> 
> A few questions for you.
> 
> ...



I'm not Brian, and I can't speak for IRT, but in my club, we work in a somewhat similar fashion.  Our goal is that, if a student starts as a child, they'll be ready to test for 1st level black belt at 18.

The youngest my club will generally accept is around 10.  We've done younger, and just weren't happy with the results, but it is still a bit of a judgement call.  As far as "catching up", that happens naturally as they get closer to 18.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2011)

MJS the way we do it and our goal is to test them for a Blue Belt at age 18.  Of course in our system there is no time standard so if their skill sets warrant further advancement then it will happen at the appropriate time.  Also we do not take a lot of kid's or teens on but we can when they arrive.  I personally feel the best age is to start around thirteen but have taught a few that were younger.  So far it has worked out excellent and the system seems to work very smoothly.  Like Jks9199 said people catch up easily!


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## MJS (Aug 22, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not Brian, and I can't speak for IRT, but in my club, we work in a somewhat similar fashion.  Our goal is that, if a student starts as a child, they'll be ready to test for 1st level black belt at 18.
> 
> The youngest my club will generally accept is around 10.  We've done younger, and just weren't happy with the results, but it is still a bit of a judgement call.  As far as "catching up", that happens naturally as they get closer to 18.


 


Brian R. VanCise said:


> MJS the way we do it and our goal is to test them for a Blue Belt at age 18.  Of course in our system there is no time standard so if their skill sets warrant further advancement then it will happen at the appropriate time.  Also we do not take a lot of kid's or teens on but we can when they arrive.  I personally feel the best age is to start around thirteen but have taught a few that were younger.  So far it has worked out excellent and the system seems to work very smoothly.  Like Jks9199 said people catch up easily!



Thank you both for your replies!   Sounds like this works for you, which is a good thing.  Only reason I asked, is that I've seen many cases, mostly at past schools, in which people, both parents and students, ask about the promotions.  If I'm reading/understanding both of you here, it seems to me that this isn't an issue at your schools, which, is the way it should be.  You test when you're ready.  If you're not ready, you dont test.  Dont ask.  If you start at the same time your best friend starts, and your friend starts advancing quicker, dont you or your parents, ask why, because the answer should be obvious....train harder...you suck!


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## jks9199 (Aug 22, 2011)

MJS said:


> If you start at the same time your best friend starts, and your friend starts advancing quicker, dont you or your parents, ask why, because the answer should be obvious....train harder...you suck!



EXACTLY!  You all suck!  

We don't put a heavy emphasis on testing or promotions.  We generally teach everything to everyone; they each simply learn the lesson at their own level.  A new student may train with the class, or may be pulled aside to be taught the basic drills based on what the lesson is and where their skill is.  Young kids (below 14 to 16, based on maturity) may be taught separately, and some elements aren't exposed to them.  They may learn the motion, but not some applications, for example.  Generally, around 14 to 16, they start training with the adult class.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2011)

*I have taught kid's and teen's for nine to twelve months without testing and never had a problem with it*.  I think the problem arises when testing is a big deal and it is happening every two or three months.  Most kid's I know just want to train and be able to hang with kid's that are better than them.  The whole testing like crazy and promoting them like crazy is some thing that has simply become big business. (ie. self created by instructors to generally make more money off testing fees)  I do not charge testing fees for anyone! * I believe that you earn your right to be promoted and it cannot be bought!  *:ultracool


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## Ceicei (Aug 23, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have taught kid's and teen's for nine to twelve months without testing and never had a problem with it*.  I think the problem arises when testing is a big deal and it is happening every two or three months.  Most kid's I know just want to train and be able to hang with kid's that are better than them.  The whole testing like crazy and promoting them like crazy is some thing that has simply become big business. (ie. self created by instructors to generally make more money off testing fees)  I do not charge testing fees for anyone! * I believe that you earn your right to be promoted and it cannot be bought!  *:ultracool


 
Brian,

I really like your philosophy.  It would be nice, imo, if more instructors thought the same way.

Ceicei


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks Ceicei I appreciate your kind words!


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## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have taught kid's and teen's for nine to twelve months without testing and never had a problem with it*.  I think the problem arises when testing is a big deal and it is happening every two or three months.  Most kid's I know just want to train and be able to hang with kid's that are better than them.  The whole testing like crazy and promoting them like crazy is some thing that has simply become big business. (ie. self created by instructors to generally make more money off testing fees)  I do not charge testing fees for anyone! * I believe that you earn your right to be promoted and it cannot be bought!  *:ultracool



I asked one of my younger students once why he didn't bring some of his friends to class.  He said that most of the kids he thought might be interested were already black belts via day-care TKD.  (OK, my wording, but the sentiment is accurate.)  I asked him how he felt about that, and he told me that he was much more confident of his skills with regard to them, and that he was glad his black belt would be real.  (Again, my words, but accurate sentiment.)

Kids don't buy into the "we don't keep score" crap in soccer.  And they know the difference between "bought the belt" and "earned the belt."


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## Blade96 (Aug 24, 2011)

Our age limit is 16. and at our last BB grading a few weeks ago a 16year old earned his BB.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, I am not a black belt yet, myself, but I think that the age thing is a little arbitrary--kids don't automatically become responsible enough for black belt at 16 and kids aren't automatically not responsible enough at 12 or 13.  We have a 13 year old at my dojo who has been training for about 6 years who is very good (and a martial arts sponge) and he was offered the chance to test for black belt early (16 is our standard as well, though) and he turned it down because he doesn't feel ready--that in itself seems like the maturity of a black belt, because everyone else certainly thinks he is ready.  I have also trained with people around my age (18-23) and older who are probably not ready for black belt because they don't have the maturity and knowledge necessary.  Sure, these may be exceptions to the rule but I think it illustrates the fact that, much as we would like to, you cannot set hard rules on people's individual development in any fine art, including martial arts.  Just something to think about, I guess.


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## Mark Jordan (Aug 24, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I don't think it's always unacceptable for younger teens to have black belts as long as they demonstrate the appropriate skill and attitude. Should they run classes, absolutely not. Adults don't want to be taught by kids, and kids don't have the  experience neccessary to handle a teaching position.
> 
> A youth black belt doesn't bother me as long as the expectations of him or her are no different than for those of an adult.




I Agree. 

Nowadays, people are obsessing about time spans and in the process diluting the value of the black belt.  More than the color of your belt, you have to be a role model.  Having a black belt signifies the achievement of maturity, a certain level of skills.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Aug 26, 2011)

In my opinion, students under the age of 16 shouldn't be black belts no matter what Martial Art system they train in. The reason is that a majority of young students don't have the right attitude to be black belts at a young age. Recently I remember one student I train with who is 15 doesn't have the right attitude to be a black belt. In my school, we have a policy that you have to be at least 16 to grade for shodan. We don't even have junior black belts. As an alternative, we grade students under 16 as Brown advance belt (which is equivalent to Jr. black belt/Shodan-ho). Many young students don't understand that in Karate, it is not about the belt, it's about building character through the mind, body, and spirit.

For schools that make young students black belts at young ages, is most likely running a McDojo.


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## etali (Aug 27, 2011)

I think it depends on the art, and what black belt is supposed to mean in that art.

I'm not a fan of all the philosophical stuff - I, personally, don't see martial arts as improving your discipline, making you a better person, or anything like that. I see it as proving that you're capable of performing a set of physical tasks in a fast, powerful, and co-ordinated manner.  Perhaps you do learn to be cooler under pressure as a side effect, but in my world view (which I accept is different to many other people's / many other arts), it's just a side effect.

So, to me, if the Black Belt requirement is to break three boards, do 100 push ups, run a mile in X time, spar a  Black Belt and not make a fool of yourself, and perform 3 randomly selected Kata correctly, then sure - you should get a black belt if you can do all that.

What I hate is when the kids only have to do 50 push ups, run an easier time, and get let off loads in the sparring because they're shorter and therefore can't stand up to the adult they ended up with as a partner.  Either you can meet the requirements, or you can't - if you can't, no belt for you, IMO.

That's just my opinion.  If the art is a one that views maturity, discipline, or the ability to teach as important, then I think it's even tougher.  I can think of many kids that are far more humble and mature than some adult black belts I've met (fortunately those BBs aren't from the place I usually train), but they aren't good teachers because they're too shy.  So, who doesn't deserve the black belt there - the adults, or the kids?

Just some thoughts.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 27, 2011)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> This topic can be quite a popular one when talking about Martial Arts in the modern world. I was wondering if any of you agree if Karate students under 16 should be Black Belts? I see that being a Black Belt has so much responsibility from not only teaching classes for all age groups, but having the right attitude and being a good role model for others.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I think 16 would be an excellent age to consider as a minimum for BB.  At this age he/she can drive, hold a job or be adjudicated as an adult by a court.  I would not consider any younger than that as a legitimate BB unless there were special circumstances.  And by special circumstances I mean 'few and far between'.  And then, only by a year or so.  Certainly not the 8 year old (or 7 or 6 or 5 year olds).

That's just the way I roll


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## Em MacIntosh (Aug 27, 2011)

It's a case by case basis.  Choosing an arbitrary age makes no difference.

As far as I know, no martial art has been developed exclusively for children.  You're learning adult martial arts for adult bodies and the techniques, philosophies etc. are geared toward that understanding, even if you are getting a head start.  You may not be full grown but if you're able to take and receive as if you were and your attitude is tempered and respectful, you're ready as long as you meet the requirements.  This will include some 12yo who are tough as nails.  This might exclude the dedicated practitioner who just doesn't have the coordination.  Proper attitude goes without saying and can be learned.  Proper body requires physical maturity to some degree.


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## Victor Smith (Aug 27, 2011)

As I see it sho-dan really doesn't mean anything more than your a student of the art, actually a child in the arts potential.
That doesn't mean it's easy to reach sho-dan, but when you look at an art as a 30 or 40 years study, if reaching sho-dan keeps the individual on that path, the goal is where they are 30 or 40 years later.

Youth or adult so few stay on the path, worrying about how you create beginners is a foolish waste of time.
Rather focus on how to train them after sho-dan when the other study begins.

Draw lines and you eliminate the young, the older, the weaker, the wrong sex,  the wrong race, the wrong political, etc.
The real issue is does your art have 40+ years of material to work on and if so does the program develop a sho-dan to move towards that goal. If so age is irrelevant. If not what does that say for the art regardless of the age of the sho-dan?


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## Black Belt Jedi (Aug 28, 2011)

If a kid earns black belt, it is most likely receiving the belt on a silver platter. To earn black belt you have to do at 4 months of training of cardio, practicing kata, basics, bunkai and sparring. Including doing a 10K run, write an essay and do a written exam. And then go through a 4 hour testing. Those are the things I have gone through almost 2 years ago, and they are memorable. If you have students under 16 receiving black belts, then they are most likely getting an easy pass, even if the requirements to get to that level are modified. 

In reality, it most likely depends on an individual's attitude. Adult black belts can have an ego too. I remember a friend of mine who doesn't train at my school anymore, was attempting to go for black belt last year, he was 21 at the time. Within two months into his black belt training, he called it quits because the training was too hard for him and felt that he needed an easy ride to get his black belt. Therefore, he didn't have the heart or the maturity to go for black belt.


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## Kong Soo Do (Aug 28, 2011)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> Within two months into his black belt training, he called it quits because the training was too hard for him and felt that he needed an easy ride to get his black belt. Therefore, he didn't have the heart or the maturity to go for black belt.



Good point in this;  it isn't just the maturity, skill or desire...it's how much heart a person has to put into the goal.  One of my sayings is, "We never quit and we always win!"  It is just as much mental mind set as it is physical skill.  And as you get older, it is even more so.


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## jonbey (Aug 28, 2011)

I think that if a martial art has a grading system it has to split it out by age. Maybe the younger age groups should never be able to attain black, or may just call it "child black" or "junior black".

Judo system is a bit like that isn't it? Once you get to 14 (I think, I recall chatting to a judo chap in a pub years ago!) you join the adult ranks and then start over, or go back a few colours.


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## ShotoJon (Aug 30, 2011)

i dont think its really about the age, or really about the belt either. i have 2 friends in a different class. they joined at the same time. the first is very high rank in the class and knows a majority of what hes learned by heart. the second, has only moved up one rank in the class. they both perform on an equal level because the second refuses to test. his philosophy on the subject is that he doesnt care about the color cloth around his waist, he just wants to know how to protect himself and whats important to him.

so in retrospect, does it really matter as long as they know the material?

IMO however, giving out junior BBs only serves to pump up their ego which could cause them problems later on. also, why test for a black belt only to have to retake the test later? patience is a virtue


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## dhumac (Sep 2, 2011)

Really - what does age have to do with it? I am relatively new at Karate, but vividly remember my first class - I'm middle age (43) & out of shape, have never participated in any martial training before and after the 30 minute warm up of push-ups/crunches/etc etc I was feeling pretty badly beaten down. I was being taught up to the first kiai of Taikyoku Shodan and having some problems both from it being something I'd never even tried before but also being a little discouraged after the workout. The white belts were being led by a Kosan - but they already knew all 20 moves - and I was feeling a little lost and unable to keep up - one of the young brown belt students stepped away from this own Kata training to assist me and worked a little, giving encouragement and helping me to understand the Kata, the moves and what they are used for.

This same student has in the past 2 months earned his black belt and is now assisting during training; he is only 13 going on 14 and has been in Karate for the past 6 - 7 years!  This young man shows responsibility, has amazing patience and maturity far beyond his years, he has strong enthusiasm for the art and whenever anyone requires assistance he is the first to be there to help out. If I have questions or issues with a form that I am working on I have no hesitation asking this young man of about 30 years my junior for help, and I show him all the respect that I would show my Sensei. He has earned that respect based in his knowledge and experience and his age has nothing to do with it - actually, truth be told, I will allow him more respect because of the hard work and dedication that he has shown to earn his place in the dojo given his age!

-Dhumac!


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 2, 2011)

ShotoJon said:


> IMO however, giving out junior BBs only serves to pump up their ego which could cause them problems later on. also, why test for a black belt only to have to retake the test later? patience is a virtue



That's a good point I agree with you. In my school, my Sensei doesn't grade students under 16 as Jr. Black Belt/Shodan-ho because of it, but Brown belt Advance (brown belt with a black stripe) as the alternative rank.


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## Steve (Sep 2, 2011)

Depends.  If your definition of "black belt" is closer to the common, lay definition of the term, I'd say no.  Most people outside of martial arts consider a black belt to be the rank awarded to an expert in that martial art.  This is a definition that has been cultivated and promoted over the years by the martial arts community.

Within many styles, the black belt doesn't mean much at all.  So, within many styles, it doesn't really matter.  It all depends upon how your particular style awards rank.  In BJJ, a 16 year old shouldn't have anything higher than... maybe... a blue belt.


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## lma (Sep 3, 2011)

I got my first Dan at 15. I was a mature student though and only ever got to take a warm up once in a n emergency (karate politics usual) at 16. Never really started takin classes till I was 20 and it wasnt a full class. Even now it rare I'll take a full class. It will probable be like this for a long time till my sensei pops his clogs lol


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 4, 2011)

lma said:


> I got my first Dan at 15.



So few students at your age can have that mental attitude to obtain a black belt. I heard that some schools make students be black belts at the minimum age of 14 or 15.


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## Grenadier (Sep 6, 2011)

In my dojo, black belts are black belts, regardless of age.  Thus, you have under-16 black belts, and adult black belts.  They should all have the same categories of knowledge, assuming similar rankings.  

However, being a yudansha only means that you've earned the rank of shodan or higher, plain and simple.  Rank is no direct indication of one's teaching capacities or duties, or even if such yudansha are even allowed to teach.  

For us, those who wish to teach must go through instructor's academy, where you must be at least 13 and at least shodan to be a junior-level sempai.  As a junior level sempai, you aren't there to teach a class, and are there to instruct others by being a good example to follow.  

At times, though, they may be given responsibilities to help a specific individual, one on one, and that they focus on a narrow range of things.  For example, they may show a specific short section of a kata, one step at a time, but generally don't do any "coaching" in those situations, unless given permission by the instructor in charge of the class.  

You must be 16 to be eligible for a senior sempai's ranking, where you're still primarily there to serve as a good example, but are also allowed to teach classes on your own, although sometimes it will be supervised by one of the senior sensei's of the dojo.     

You must be at least a high school graduate, and at least a nidan, to become a sensei, where you're allowed to teach classes on your own, where most of it will be unsupervised.  

In the end, though, there is essentially only one sensei on the floor, even if others with the title of sensei are training in the class as well, just as there is only one head chef in a restaurant.  Whoever is teaching the class has command of the floor, even if there is someone of higher rank (instructor level or dan level) on the floor.  Even if a senior is supervising the class being taught by a lower level, it's still the instructor on the floor who teaches, plain and simple.  

While it's true that virtually all of our instructors are black belts (a few exceptions exist), the converse is not necessarily true.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 6, 2011)

MJS said:


> In a nutshell, no.  Does it happen?  Sadly, way too often.



This right here is the simple and best answer. There are cases that cant be judged individually but on a whole no they shouldnt. One might argue that in the case of female students they should be allowed to at 16 since they are usually more mature than their opposite sex counterparts but for simplicity 18 should be the minimum for both sexes

B


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## Cyriacus (Sep 6, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> This right here is the simple and best answer. There are cases that cant be judged individually but on a whole no they shouldnt. One might argue that in the case of female students they should be allowed to at 16 since they are usually more mature than their opposite sex counterparts but for simplicity 18 should be the minimum for both sexes
> 
> B



Females? More Mature at around 16?

Wow, this Country must be Backward.
Just Last Week a Spectator asked, that if She Joined Up, if Shed get "One of those Pretty Belts". Youd have to have heard the way it was said.

Thats only One Example, but ive yet to see anything more than a Balance, in people between 15-25 in terms of Maturity.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 9, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> This right here is the simple and best answer. There are cases that cant be judged individually but on a whole no they shouldnt. One might argue that in the case of female students they should be allowed to at 16 since they are usually more mature than their opposite sex counterparts but for simplicity 18 should be the minimum for both sexes
> 
> B



Hmmm...I don't fully believe that maturity depends on gender. It depends more on the individual.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 9, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Females? More Mature at around 16?
> 
> Wow, this Country must be Backward.
> Just Last Week a Spectator asked, that if She Joined Up, if Shed get "One of those Pretty Belts". Youd have to have heard the way it was said.
> ...


 
From what i have seen it is true but that be just the people i have been around and me personally. I was no where near mature enough at 16 to handle a black belt. I base that on my training now and i how i was then but had I started at an earlier age i might have matured quicker



Black Belt Jedi said:


> Hmmm...I don't fully believe that maturity depends on gender. It depends more on the individual.



I can agree with that but from my experience it seems to me that females mature faster. Though my opinion might be skewed simply because I teach a handful of teenage boys that have the maturity of 10 a year old. They really arent mature enought, in my opinion at least, to hold the rank they do.

B


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## Cyriacus (Sep 9, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> From what i have seen it is true but that be just the people i have been around and me personally. I was no where near mature enough at 16 to handle a black belt. I base that on my training now and i how i was then but had I started at an earlier age i might have matured quicker



That would make sense.
Who you associate yourself with can certainly affect ones views (Naturally - Its not a Criticism, just to make sure my Text doesnt do anything loopy ), as well as your own Nature.


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## Saki (Sep 15, 2011)

I just can't wrap my mind around it. I don't agree withanyone under 16 getting a Black Belt. I think that if a 16, 17 or 18 year oldgets one- they have to be VERY mature as well as above and beyond the trainingand ability level. A black belt is NOT a 3rd grader's trophy!!! It's somethingmore. We learn something that can/could take another person's life. We havebeen taught an art, a skill that is dangerous. I don't take this lightly. Idon't think they are mature enough as well as their bodies have not matured100%. 

I also think it weakens the art as well as water down the style to give kids ablack belt. Over the last 15 years- this seems the norm anyway. I travel a lotand visit about 5 different schools/styles a month. I would say that 80% handout a black belt as long as the contract is signed and the $$$ is paid. I see 8year olds with black belts and they can't even run a basic kata. I don't careif the kid started training at the age of 3- there is still something to besaid about maturity- and really people- that's one thing that is wrong with theworld now- immaturity.

I also don't think you use this as a way to ensure you have a contract. I haveseen "the black belt club"- you pay more for a longer contract thatensures you get a black belt in "X" years. Just sad, so sad.

Maybe I am old fashion- but this is what I see and what seems to be the norm. Imean no offense to anyone. If that is the way you do it- I disagree with it andwon't support it.

respectfully


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## Cyriacus (Sep 15, 2011)

Saki said:


> I just can't wrap my mind around it. I don't agree withanyone under 16 getting a Black Belt. I think that if a 16, 17 or 18 year oldgets one- they have to be VERY mature as well as above and beyond the trainingand ability level. A black belt is NOT a 3rd grader's trophy!!! It's somethingmore. We learn something that can/could take another person's life. We havebeen taught an art, a skill that is dangerous. I don't take this lightly. Idon't think they are mature enough as well as their bodies have not matured100%.
> 
> I also think it weakens the art as well as water down the style to give kids ablack belt. Over the last 15 years- this seems the norm anyway. I travel a lotand visit about 5 different schools/styles a month. I would say that 80% handout a black belt as long as the contract is signed and the $$$ is paid. I see 8year olds with black belts and they can't even run a basic kata. I don't careif the kid started training at the age of 3- there is still something to besaid about maturity- and really people- that's one thing that is wrong with theworld now- immaturity.
> 
> ...



This is where Society comes into Play.
Depending on Demographic, and Personal Activity, Younger People arent as "Young" as they used to be.
Its why many Arts have had to adapt to new Standard - Because completely Untrained Individuals have Information at their Disposal regarding Fighting and whatnot, that they havent in the Past.
With the Media, and News; Many People over the age of 16 are full well aware of how the World functions.
And Mature as a Result.

Which goes back to Upbringing.
Some Kids are Brought Up in an Immature Environment, and as a Result, remain Immature for some time, before Learning Otherwise.
And Demographic is Key, since different Lifestyles and Atmospheres in Life will also affect someone.
In other ways, its also Television and the Media that tries to make Kids out to be "Childish"; When in Reality, outside of Schools, a Substancial Number of Younger People are actually quite swell.
Then you have Intellectuals, who are much less Biased by "Cliques" and Conforming to Immature Sociality in School Systems, and are more readily Mature as a Result.

Furthermore, anyone who watches any Television is seeing only the Deaths and Tragedy of Day to Day Life - And im sure Plenty are Aware of each Individual Human Life being affected by that.
Now, do these Adolescents react to this the same way some Older People might, by being Profoundly Empathetic?
Probably Not.
But it doesnt make them Less Mature, since more and more People are just Accepting these things, and perhaps *Appearing* Ignorant to them as a Result.

My Point is, dont Generalise an Entire Population based on the Childish, Undeveloped Stereotype.
Im sure its Accurate of some places, but not all.
If a 17 Year Old is as Mature as any Adult, why hold him back?
Why Insist that he me *MORE* Mature than an Adult, just because of his Age; When Day to Day Life Exposes People to the World Drastically more than it used to.

Im not trying to Change your Opinion, though.
Just offering some Retrospect.

As for Physical Development; Physical Development does not affect Skill.
If the Student is doing things at a Black Belt Level, the same was as any First Degree, without Fault (By the Standards of a 1st Dan); They should be Held Back, because theyll be Better than a First Degree in a few Years?

Just My Contribution.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> This is where Society comes into Play.
> Depending on Demographic, and Personal Activity, Younger People arent as "Young" as they used to be.
> Its why many Arts have had to adapt to new Standard - Because completely Untrained Individuals have Information at their Disposal regarding Fighting and whatnot, that they havent in the Past.
> With the Media, and News; Many People over the age of 16 are full well aware of how the World functions.
> ...



I like what you have said here a lot. It breaks down how TV and media are desensitizing children and forcing them to grow up and mature faster. My problem with this is while on the outside a child/person, whatever word you want to use, may appear to be able to handle these situations presented to them, mentally they may not be able to cope with it. 

An example: A person under 16 with a black belt is attacked on the streets. They use the moves and techniques they were taught to defend themselves and end up seriously injuring or killing the attacker. 

Now i know this is a worse case scenario but worst case scenarios are ofter the best ones to use to illustrate a point clearly. Someone under 16 is not going to be able to handle the emotional trauma that would come with taking someones life. That doesnt mean that someone 18 or over would be able to deal with it better but as they have had more life experience it would certainly give them a better chance.

Now i can hear some people saying, "16 and 18 really arent all that different". Really?! Think back to when you were 16 and what you cared about and what you dreamed about and then think back to when you were 18. For me they were entirely different. Though i maybe an extreme example. By 18 i had already lost 2 friends to violence, i had been in multiple scrapes with the law and had developed a serious alcohol and drug problem. Even so, without the experiences that I went through 16 and 18 are vastly different ages in regards to mental maturity.

So my point in all this rambling is that under no circumstances should someone under the age of 16 receive a black belt. I honestly feel that 18 is the lowest age that they should be awarded. At 18 you are old enough to fight for our country and are looked at as an adult by the law so therefor you should be able to handle the responsibilities of a black belt as well as take any repercussions that would come from misrepresenting what a black belt should be.

But, i do feel that 16 and 17 year old should be evaluated on an individual bases. Monitor their progress and technique closely. See how they handle themselves with students both older and younger than they are. After that if they meet the requirements of the instructor and the school then by all means they deserve a black belt

my .02

B


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## Cyriacus (Sep 16, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> I like what you have said here a lot. It breaks down how TV and media are desensitizing children and forcing them to grow up and mature faster. My problem with this is while on the outside a child/person, whatever word you want to use, may appear to be able to handle these situations presented to them, mentally they may not be able to cope with it.
> 
> *Yes.*
> 
> ...



My Contribution, in Bold Text Form, since Splitting up Quotes takes me WAY longer than id like to spend replying to things. *Insert Smiley Of Some Kind Here*


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 16, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> *Yes*





> *Or Maiming. Which could be just as bad.*



I agree. Maiming could be just as bed, especially if it cause permanent paralysis.



> *Well, they might. Someone Rational and Clear Headed should feel bad,  but they should be able to live with it. If someone tries to Murder you  with a Knife, for example, and you reflexively disarm them and kill them  in one swift action; They are the one who attacked you. But, an Older  Person will be better able to Rationalize this.*



I agree. If someone comes at you with the intent to kill you and you take their life, then so be it. You should feel some remorse that you took A life but not that particular persons life. This may make me sound cold and indifferent but I dont care to be honest...LOL. I dont really like to use the generalization that older is better. I know plenty of older people who are better set in life but are WAY more irrational and less mature than i am.



> *Maturity aside, take Training. Every Month, ill think back to how I  Trained the last Month, and wonder why I missed such Obvious  Improvements. Its the same with Age. I once read; "Every Time You Age By  A Decade, You Will Probably Be Thinking, 'Im Glad Im Not The Fool I Was  10 Years Ago.'"
> Also, Salutations on overcoming these Habits, Good Sir *



This is one of those debate that could have no end i believe. Training and Maturity i mean. They go hand in hand if you look at it. The more you train than obviously the better martial artist you should become, but realizing what improves and what needs improvement is a true sign of maturity. A perfect example is kids, how many times have you tried to correct a kids stance, form, tech...etc and they look at you like you are stupid? Maturity. Of course i have had plenty of adults do this as well and they are always more fun to correct 

And thank you. It was a hard road wrought with many bad memories and decisions but ones i wouldnt trade for the world oddly enough. They have made me who i am.



> *There is of course, one flipside. If someone is, going by my System, a  Brown Belt; Even if theyre not given a Black Belt, they might be  Functioning at a Black Belt Level, despite not wearing the Belt to show  it.*



There is a flipside to everything and this is a perfect example. In my system we have 3 degrees of brown then black then 10 degrees of black. At my school currently there is a 3rd degree brown (1st level of brown just incase you are unaware) who acts like a black belt day in and day out. of course he is 33 i believe but all the same he shows the mental maturity for the rank before he has it.



> *And this is why I think Junior Black Belts are a good idea. It  acknowledges their Skill and Understanding, but its also just short of  1st Dan. Then when they come of Age, they Re-test, and get their Black  Belt. Having said that, thats just a Formality. But its perhaps a Good  Formality.*



I like this idea and i have seen it used at other places. The local McDojo uses this system as well but most black belts and higher coming out of those buildings have the mental maturity of a rock. I hate to speak ill of the place but as of late I have heard bad rumors and mutterings about it and some of them are a seriously slap in the face to passionate MA'ists.



> My Contribution, in Bold Text Form, since Splitting up Quotes takes me WAY longer than id like to spend replying to things. *Insert Smiley Of Some Kind Here*



No problem. I have plenty of time at work so i have no problem splitting things up....it is friday after all

B


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## ATACX GYM (Sep 16, 2011)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> This topic can be quite a popular one when talking about Martial Arts in the modern world. I was wondering if any of you agree if Karate students under 16 should be Black Belts? I see that being a Black Belt has so much responsibility from not only teaching classes for all age groups, but having the right attitude and being a good role model for others.
> 
> Any thoughts?



Depends on what one's definition of a BB is. If it's merely a matter of curriculum and memorizing "x" number of techs which you can regurgitate on demand? It's wholly possible. If,however,you demand personal growth,exceptional levels of skill,a specific and generally unattainable reach of maturity for most teens,keen teaching acumen,a particular kind and amount of literal life experience,specific kinds of character attributes that have to be developed for a specific period of time? I can't see how a 16 year old can be a BB with THOSE kinds of requirements. They haven't been alive long enough to qualify.

There is no way that someone under 18 will get a BB from me. I have never given a BB even to an 18 year old (although my 9 year old son is on track to get his by age 18-21). The youngest Black Belt that I have ever had is 26 years old. Nobody ever complained about it.


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## ATACX GYM (Sep 16, 2011)

elder999 said:


> wasn't unheard of even 35 years ago. I know when i made shodan (at 16) i was welcomed by more than a few others who were closer to 12....



damn


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 16, 2011)

In my school the kyu belt ranking system for kids from 4 to 15 is different from adult belt ranks. Adult belt ranks go white, yellow, orange, green, blue and brown belt. The kids ranking system is white belt, white with a black stripe, yellow, yellow with a black stripe etc. that way kids can grasp things in the curriculum easier for their age instead of throwing everything at them and then whether or not they are able to grasp it, go for black belt at a young age.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 16, 2011)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> In my school the kyu belt ranking system for kids from 4 to 15 is different from adult belt ranks. Adult belt ranks go white, yellow, orange, green, blue and brown belt. The kids ranking system is white belt, white with a black stripe, yellow, yellow with a black stripe etc. that way kids can grasp things in the curriculum easier for their age instead of throwing everything at them and then whether or not they are able to grasp it, go for black belt at a young age.



ours is set up similar, without the belts though, the kids curriculum is the same except that certain portions are left out until they achieve a certain rank. Those portions being the ones where they need more mental fortitude as they are not just steps 1,2,3. There are concepts involved that may be lost on someone of a younger mindset

B


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## Indie12 (Sep 17, 2011)

No!!!


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## Indie12 (Sep 17, 2011)

I'm a firm believer in you should be at least 18 years of age with at least a minimum of 5 years before you can go for Black Belt. Anyone under the age of 18 (no matter how long they've been studying) should not become Black Belts until they are 18. Maybe longer.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 23, 2011)

I recall hearing stories from my 8-10 year old students that at the YMCA, karate instructors have black belts around their ages even younger from 4-7 year olds. At a young age many karatekas cannot have sharp techniques and proper kime, it takes time to grow into it. There are some schools both Karate and Taekwondo award belts to students like tournament trophies. Even have students skip belt ranks quite often. Those types of businesses run a McDojo. I do tip my hat for my students for being aware on how instructors have been running their schools.


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