# Yuk Ro Hyungs



## Moo D

Hi,

I am looking for any information on Hwang Kee's, Yuk ro hyung series. I have been taught one of the Yuk ro hyungs but I am not sure which one of the 6 forms.

Also there is not a lot of info on these hyungs in general. Other than GM Hwang reconstructed these hyungs from the muye dobu tonji in the 1960's.

Can anyone help me out with any further info, please????????????

Tang Soo!

Steve Radford


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## Makalakumu

Tang Soo Steve!  

Welcome to Martial Talk!  Which Yuk Ro Hyung do you know?  Could you describe it?

upnorthkyosa


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## Moo D

UpnorthKyosa,

Thanks for the reply,

The Yuk Ro Hyung that I have been taught starts with a double arm strike (to the front and Back), then repeated with a reverse double arm strike to the front and back). Then the right arm comes over the top and grasps the left extended arm, a scooping motion (Breathing in) whilst rocking from front stance back into back stance with front heel to ground (Toes up). Then the arms are pushed out to the front whilst moving from side stance to front stance and breathing out.

These are the first 4 moves, complicated heh!!

I think there is around 40 moves in total with movement first to the west then back to the east in a linear motion.

Does this sound familiar???

Tang Soo!!

Steve


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## Makalakumu

Ah yes...Du Moon - open the gate - I believe this one is also called Yuk Ro Cho Dan.  This is the only Yuk Ro form I know.  I've been out of the SBDMDK Federation for about three years and out of the loop with Master Bill Nelson for about two.  To answer a few of your questions though...eventually, the Federation would like to replace ALL forms (at least at the gup level) not created by the Kwanjangnim Hwang Kee.  Pyung Ahns, Bassai, and Nai Han Chi will be taken out and replaced by this series.  The teaching of it to Dans is suppose to preclude this change by showing instructors how to do them all.  This is one of the reasons my instructor pulled out of the organization.  Most of the information on these forms is available through the SBDMDK Federation.


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## Moo D

Thanks UpnorthKyosa,

I train in the UK Tang Soo (Soo Bahk) Do Federation, Moo Duk Kwan, under Kwang Jang nim Lee, Kang Uk, one of Doju nim Hwang, kee's senior students (Dan Bon #70). We still use the original Tang Soo Do hyungs of Pyuang Ahn, Naihanchi, Bassai, Ship Soo, Jin Do etc...

I was taught the Juk ro (Du moon) hyung by my teacher, Sabonim Stephen Tilley (5th dan). Master Tilley has trained under KJN Lee for the past 24 years, part of that under DJN Hwang, kee before KJN Lee moved away from his teacher.

Do you know when this form was founded??? 

Tang Soo!!

Steve


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## Moo D

Sorry UpnorthKyosa,

Could I ask one more question??

Are there any good web resources for the Yuk Ro hyungs?? You mentioned the SBKMDK Federation. Could you post a link for them, please??

Tang Soo!

Steve


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## mtabone

I have learned to date three of the 6 yuk Rho's. They are requirments in the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan. I will not learn the next till I get the big 0' red strip through my belt, but that is years away...

They are a great series of hyungs, with a lot to teach....


I would locate a book of the Moo Duk Kwan. Has all the yuk rho's in there.I believe...

TANG SOO!!!
M.Tabone


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## Moo D

M. Tabone,


Many thanks for the reply. Which book has these hyungs in?? I have GM Hwangs original Tang Soo Do book (Volume 1) but it only has the Okinawan Hyungs In.

Can you suggest a resource for my research into the Yuk Ro series??

Tang Soo!!!

Steve


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## Makalakumu

This is the main SBDMDK website.  I hope this helps...

http://www.soobahkdo.com/


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## Kodanjaclay

I just re-purchased volumes 1 and 2 last year. Hwa Sun is in volume 2 but none of the Chil Sung. There are some Yuk Ro Hyung.


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## dosandojang

My Grand Master does Chil Sungs 1-7, and Yuk Ros 1-6 (Grand Master Ivanhoe Kim of Soo Bahk Ki International. He has even made his own new Soo Bahk Do Hyungs, but I will not bother to learn them)


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## dosandojang

For those who do not know what I was talking about, here are Soo Bahk Ki International's Soo Bahk Do Original Hyungs:

Chil Sung Il Ro
Chil Sung Ee Ro
Chil Sung Sam Ro
Chil Sung Sah Ro
Chil Sung Oh Ro
Chil Sung Yuk Ro
Chil Sung Chil Ro

Yuk Ro Cho Dan
Yuk Ro Ee Dan
Yuk Ro Sam Dan
Yuk Ro Sah Dan
Yuk Ro Oh Dan
Yuk Ro Yuk Dan

Hwa Sun
So Ho Yun


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## Moo D

dosandojang,

Are there no Japanese/Okinawan Hyungs practiced anymore in your syllabus??

Also what relationship is GM Ivanhoe Kim to Hwang Kee, I am interested as I am trying to trace the generation roots from Hwang done to myself and I have seen references regarding GM Ivanhoe Kim but not who his instructor is/was???

Tang Soo!!


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## dosandojang

Oh yes, of course there are. We practice the Kichos and Pyong Ahns for our TSD side, and the Yuk Ros and Chil Sungs for our SBD side. My GM, Young Ik Han grew up in the  MDK, so his base is in the Kichos and Pyong Ahns. Later he hooked up with GM Kim, and learned the SBD Hyungs. But now, GM Kim has created his OWN SBD Hyungs, and my GM and I are not going to learn them...


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## dosandojang

From what they (GM Han and GM Kim) tell me, GM Kim learned from Dojunim Hwang Kee and his son. He may have had other Masters though, but he has just not mentioned them to me. I will ask though...


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## Makalakumu

dosandojang said:
			
		

> From what they (GM Han and GM Kim) tell me, GM Kim learned from Dojunim Hwang Kee and his son. He may have had other Masters though, but he has just not mentioned them to me. I will ask though...



I have never heard the term "dojunim".  Could you please enlighten me?

Thanks


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## Moo D

upnorthkyosa,

The translation of Do ju nim is founder and is applied to hwang Kee for the founding of the Moo Duk Kwan.

Regards,


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## Moo D

dosandojang,

Thanks for the reply. I had heard that SBD had relinquished the Japanese/Okinawon Hyungs for the Chil sung and Yuk ro hyungs as created by DJN Hwang.

Would you say that there is a distinct difference between TSD and SBD as the philosophies are entwined via the Moo Duk Kwan??

Regards,


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## dosandojang

Well they both come from Doju Nim Hwang Kee, but I will say they are different forms wise...


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## Moo D

Thanks, That's been most enlightening.


Tang Soo!!


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## Makalakumu

So, does anyone know what forms SBD is requireing at the gup level now?  I imagine the white and orange belt forms won't change much.  But what about green, red, and cho dan?  With not Okinawan forms, that takes a big chunk out of the curriculum I learned way back when.


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## Moo D

I have not heard from any of the SBD people, hence not sure what their curriculum looks like at present if indeed they have removed any the Japanese influence.

It seems a shame as the Okinawon Hyungs were and still are a fundamental part of TSD and as SBD is really TSD?? then they still have a place, if that makes sense??

Regards


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## Moo D

Thankyou Master Clay,

I have just ordered DJN Hwang's Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do Volume 2, after your post.
many Thanks,


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## Moo D

Thanks to all on this thread for the information you have given. I have just received the copy of DJN Hwang's Volume 2 TSD/SBD and within the 3 Yuk Ro Hyungs and their philosophy.

I can now see that DJN Hwang translated the MYDBTJ into the Yuk Ro Hyungs and introduced them in the late 1980's.

Many thanks for all those who participated in this thread.

Regards,


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## dosandojang

Yes, from what we all can gather...He made them up from how HE saw the MYDBTJ. But I wonder why the book only has 3 Yuk Ros, when there really are 6? (Yuk Ro means: 6 paths, and there are 6 Yuk Ros Hyungs, just as there are 7 Chil Sung Hyungs. Chil Sung means: 7 Stars)


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## Moo D

It seems that DJN Hwang was originally going to release 5 volumes of Tang Soo Do Soo Bahk Do. For some reason only 2 volumes were ever released, Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Volume 1 in 1978 and Volume 2 in 1992, and one Korean release of Soo Bahk Do Dae Keam in 1970. It Seems that the english Volume 1 is the translation of the Dae Keam released in 1970.

I would suppose that the 3 remaining Yuk Ro Hyungs - Sah Dan, Oh Dan and Yuk Dan, as well as the 7 Chil Sung Hyungs would have appeared somewhere in the remaining 3 volumes??

It is a shame that a more comprehensive record of the Tang Soo Do Hyungs is not available in written form as devised by Hwang Kee.

Any thoughts??     :asian:


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## dosandojang

Good guess Moo Do. Maybe that is the answer I am looking for. Anyone else got a theory???


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## Shinzu

perhaps you could find one of hwang kee's books.  they might be of some use.  i am not totally sure, but that might be a good place to start.


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## dosandojang

I have one, but it does not have the answers we are looking for. Warrior-Scholar has some GREAT TSD MINDS there, so I will ask over there! Thanks!


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## Shinzu

dosandojang said:
			
		

> I have one, but it does not have the answers we are looking for. Warrior-Scholar has some GREAT TSD MINDS there, so I will ask over there! Thanks!



yes that is an excellent source also.  thanks for bringing it to this thread!

here is that link:

http://www.warrior-scholar.com/


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## Moo D

I have both volumes of Hwang Kee's work on Tang Soo do, the second volume has the first 3 Yuk ro hyungs in and a brief description of the origin of the hyungs and their introduction in the Moo Duk Kwan syllabus. Are there any other resources for Yuk Ro Sah dan, oh dan and yuk dan???

Regards,


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## TSDMDK16485

i think eventully the us soo bahk do federation is going to tak all of the pyung ahn hyungs out as well as naihanchi hyungs and replace them with chil-sung and yuk-ro and hwa-sun,tae kuk kwan,so rim jang kwan as well as the last series of hyungs that hwang kee created. i forgot the name of those hyungs i'll look them up and get the name of themm for you i think there were 10 of them in the series..


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## MBuzzy

I'd like to reinvigorate this thread, if possible.  

I have also started learning the Yuk Ro Hyungs and I'm curious about what your thoughts on the applications and purpoes of Yuk Ro Hyung is?  Also, how you would specifically evaluate a Yuk Ro Hyung.  I have learned Yuk Ro Cho Dan, that was referenced earlier, which is a slower, more controlled form.


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## Makalakumu

There are lots of interesting applications in Yuk Ro Cho Dan aka Du Moon.  I can only talk about this one, however, because it is the only one of the sequence I learned before we left the federation.  

Hwang Kee has stated that this form was a green belt form, but when I was learning it, it was being taught at the dan level.  This was being done in order to introduce all of the new forms to all of the dans and, I imagine, they eventually will replace the traditional karate hyungs.  This will, in effect, sever Soo Bahk Do's ties with karate and make it a separate art.

Anyway, applications of this form.  Take a look at this move...

http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/hizaguruma.htm

This is performed at the beginning of each line right after the first series of noo lo mahkees.  It is done on the left and right indicating that you should learn this throw on both sides.  

If you have any questions on individual moves, please post them!

upnorthkyosa


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## MBuzzy

UpNorth,

could that movement also be intended as a simultaneous strike to the knee and chest?  With the intent of breaking the knee and pushing the attacker over, rather than a throw? 

Also, I'm curious on your take on the slow pushing movements following the double kwon do kong kyuk and reverse kwon do kong kyuk.  There are two inhale and exhale movements, pulling both hands in toward your body and then pushing away slowly.  These are the movements that I am really interested in.  I've been having the discussion with my instructor and his interpretation is that they are simply pushing your attacker away from you - of course, his english isn't so good sometimes.


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## Makalakumu

MBuzzy said:
			
		

> Could that movement also be intended as a simultaneous strike to the knee and chest? With the intent of breaking the knee and pushing the attacker over, rather than a throw?


 
Yes, but you want to keep your mind open and you want to think about the effectiveness of what you are describing.  What is the percentage chance that YOU could pull it off.  Maybe someone else or your teacher can make the application above work.  I can make the one I described work.  This is how we personalize our hyungs.



> Also, I'm curious on your take on the slow pushing movements following the double kwon do kong kyuk and reverse kwon do kong kyuk.


 
In certain styles of kung fu, there are techniques called long arm strikes.  You perform these by using your forearms as bludgeons with the usual target being the neck.  These strikes, I have been told in the states, are called Ta ko shik.  I was told that this means seizing and smashing.  So what you are doing with these techniques is grabbing a part of your opponent and smashing them in the neck with your forearm.  

This is one of the areas that you can see the kung fu influence in Yuk Ro and TSD in general.



> There are two inhale and exhale movements, pulling both hands in toward your body and then pushing away slowly.


 
This movement can be interpreted as pushing someone away, but that is only half of the movement.  The other part where you drop down and circle your hands behind you is a duel wrist release.  So, the full application is a duel wrist release that pulls your uke off balance AND then comes the push (which can also be a double strike!).

Another interpretation of this move takes into account the level change of the technique.  Imagine dropping under a persons guard and grabbing a single or double leg.  The "push" now becomes the levering action that you would need to dump your uke on his head.



> These are the movements that I am really interested in. I've been having the discussion with my instructor and his interpretation is that they are simply pushing your attacker away from you - of course, his english isn't so good sometimes.


 
Please keep sharing your training in this form with us.  I'm very curious as to how the Koreans are doing it compared to how Americans are doing it.


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## mattkulma

I have often seen that movment set as a strkie to the knee and to the center of the torso.  I actually just finished leaning yok ro sa dan (yang pyan).


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## MBuzzy

I just received Grandmaster Hwang Kee's Volume 2 of Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan and in his desciprtion of Yuk Ro Cho Dan, he describes this as a simultaneous strike to the center of the torso and a kick to the knee.

Although - I must say that I am on UpNorth's side on this one, the chance of actually landing a technique like that one someone and having both be successful and remaining on your feet is slim.  I can see myself attempting this and ending up on my butt.  So I am more inclined to believe it is more like the throw that UpNorth described.


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## EmperorOfKentukki

The movement is actually taken from Taekyon.  It is a sweep and pushing throw.  You do hook the knee...but from behind...as you push your heel palm into the chest to knock the opponent down.





 




 




 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9N-AD57tnNQ&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJLxZICmJuQ&mode=related&search=



The Emperor


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## Makalakumu

Thanks for those videos, Emperor.  I've never actually seen taekyun before.  With that being said, I could have sworn that some of those guys had cross trained in yudo.  I saw some other throws being used.

Anyway, I thought taekyun only used the feet?


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## EmperorOfKentukki

> I thought taekyun only used the feet?



Yes.  That is a common misconception.  Taekyon actually was more of a sweep and throw art than is popularly taught.  Yes, they would kick you (as you can see), but their goal was to put you down...and the best way to do that was to trap your legs or cut them out from under you.  

Many have commented about how similar Taekyun is to Capoeria.  I would argue that.  Capoeria appears to have been an art created out of air and given a false history to support some whim to have an 'African' origin art.  Taekyon is well documented historically many hundreds of years before anyone ever even thought of the word 'Capoeria'.

But Taekyon is very much like dance.  Should this be any surprize?  Go to Okinawa.  Their traditional dance is so very close to their traditional fighting.  And why should this not be so.  Warriors do like to part!!

The Emperor


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## MBuzzy

Where can I find more background on Taekyon?


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## EmperorOfKentukki

Turtle Press has an instructional video on Taekyon.

The Emperor


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## Dillon Hall

Moo D said:


> Sorry UpnorthKyosa,
> 
> Could I ask one more question??
> 
> Are there any good web resources for the Yuk Ro hyungs?? You mentioned the SBKMDK Federation. Could you post a link for them, please??
> 
> Tang Soo!
> 
> Steve


The link you are looking for is www.soobahkdo.com. I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan and I am learning the 5th Yung Ro Hyung. The best resource for this is to train in a Soo Bahk Do studio. Go to the website to find a studio near you. The Hyung are not written down except for the first three. 
Hope that helps!
Dillon Hall
Sam Dan in SBDMDK


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## Dillon Hall

MBuzzy said:


> I just received Grandmaster Hwang Kee's Volume 2 of Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan and in his desciprtion of Yuk Ro Cho Dan, he describes this as a simultaneous strike to the center of the torso and a kick to the knee.
> 
> Although - I must say that I am on UpNorth's side on this one, the chance of actually landing a technique like that one someone and having both be successful and remaining on your feet is slim. I can see myself attempting this and ending up on my butt. So I am more inclined to believe it is more like the throw that UpNorth described.


Actually, the kick can be used for many things. It can be a check, a knee kick, a torso kick, etc. depending on the situation. It is inportant to note that Soo Bahk Do is adaptive and the techniques adapt to fit a situation.
As


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## Dillon Hall

TSDMDK16485 said:


> i think eventully the us soo bahk do federation is going to tak all of the pyung ahn hyungs out as well as naihanchi hyungs and replace them with chil-sung and yuk-ro and hwa-sun,tae kuk kwan,so rim jang kwan as well as the last series of hyungs that hwang kee created. i forgot the name of those hyungs i'll look them up and get the name of themm for you i think there were 10 of them in the series..


 
The Soo Bahk Do Federation is not going to get rid of any Hyung. Some are becoming more prominant and used but there are none that are ging to disappear. The Pyung Ahn Hyung almost did, but today they are testing requirments for various levels of Gup and Dan. Just wanted to clarify


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## Dillon Hall

Moo D said:


> I have both volumes of Hwang Kee's work on Tang Soo do, the second volume has the first 3 Yuk ro hyungs in and a brief description of the origin of the hyungs and their introduction in the Moo Duk Kwan syllabus. Are there any other resources for Yuk Ro Sah dan, oh dan and yuk dan???
> 
> Regards,


 
No, unless your instructor has them memorized. Sometimes it is important to know Hyung by memory and not have to refer to a book. This also keeps the hyung within the art so that other arts do not copy the hyung and call them their own.


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## Dillon Hall

Moo D said:


> dosandojang,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I had heard that SBD had relinquished the Japanese/Okinawon Hyungs for the Chil sung and Yuk ro hyungs as created by DJN Hwang.
> 
> Would you say that there is a distinct difference between TSD and SBD as the philosophies are entwined via the Moo Duk Kwan??
> 
> Regards,


 
They are very similar in content, but very different in style if you pay close attention. Soo Bahk Do is a changing art that adapts to new scientific discoveries or trying to be more energy efficient yet more effective. Tang Soo Do does not really do this. They like to keep things the way they were years ago and do not evolve. Also, Soo Bahk Do is becoming more Um, Tai Chi like, softer. Not like Tai Chi, but softer. Tang Soo Do is still very hard, uses too much energy for not as much power in general.


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## Dillon Hall

upnorthkyosa said:


> So, does anyone know what forms SBD is requireing at the gup level now? I imagine the white and orange belt forms won't change much. But what about green, red, and cho dan? With not Okinawan forms, that takes a big chunk out of the curriculum I learned way back when.


I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do, so I could answer any specific questions. All Hyung required for Cho Dan (and therefore all levels of Gup) are here.
-The three Ki Cho Hyung
-Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, Sam Dan
-The first three Chil Sung Hyung
-Yuk Ro Cho Dan (Du Moon)
-Passai
-Naihanji Cho Dan
Hope this helps


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## exile

Can I ask a question of you TSD/SBD folks---hope it's not too off-topic---but is it really the case, as one of the very early posts in this thread indicated, that there is a serious push on the Korean side to eliminate the Pyung-Ahns and gradually purge the art of its formal connection to karate? And if it is, is it just another instance of Korean nationalist reaction to things Japanese (along lines familiar from the history of TKD), or is there something else involved...? I'd very much appreciate any light any of you can shed on this.


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## Dillon Hall

exile said:


> Can I ask a question of you TSD/SBD folks---hope it's not too off-topic---but is it really the case, as one of the very early posts in this thread indicated, that there is a serious push on the Korean side to eliminate the Pyung-Ahns and gradually purge the art of its formal connection to karate? And if it is, is it just another instance of Korean nationalist reaction to things Japanese (along lines familiar from the history of TKD), or is there something else involved...? I'd very much appreciate any light any of you can shed on this.


Maybe some arts, but not Soo Bahk Do. We have kept the Pyung Ahn Hyung and they only become more prevelent as time goes on.


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## exile

Dillon Hall said:


> Maybe some arts, but not Soo Bahk Do. We have kept the Pyung Ahn Hyung and they only become more prevelent as time goes on.



OK, then it was TSD that the person I'm thinking of was referring to at the beginning of this thread---thanks much for the info. I think the Pyung Ahns are terrific, wish very much they were still part of TKD. If I ever get to start my own `underground' TKD place, they're definitely going to be big in the curriculum.


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## EmperorOfKentukki

I've been doing work recently on Jae Nam (the form that predates the Pyong Ahn series and from where the Pyong Ahn's were derived).

JH


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## mattkulma

Dillon Hall said:


> I am a 3rd Dan in Soo Bahk Do, so I could answer any specific questions. All Hyung required for Cho Dan (and therefore all levels of Gup) are here.
> -The three Ki Cho Hyung
> -Pyung Ahn Cho Dan, Sam Dan
> -The first three Chil Sung Hyung
> -Yuk Ro Cho Dan (Du Moon)
> -Passai
> -Naihanji Cho Dan
> Hope this helps


 
As far as I know, all 5 Pyung Ahns are required for Cho Dan.  At least they where when I tested and most of the 1st gups at my studio know up thru 3 or 4 I think, I admit I have not looked at the requierments in a while.
Soo Bahk!
Matt Kulma


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## Makalakumu

Dillon Hall said:


> They are very similar in content, but very different in style if you pay close attention. Soo Bahk Do is a changing art that adapts to new scientific discoveries or trying to be more energy efficient yet more effective. Tang Soo Do does not really do this. They like to keep things the way they were years ago and do not evolve. Also, Soo Bahk Do is becoming more Um, Tai Chi like, softer. Not like Tai Chi, but softer. Tang Soo Do is still very hard, uses too much energy for not as much power in general.


 
I think that you may be surprised at the amount of change in TSD.  Since there are so many federations and so many teachers outside of any federation, TSD has become a lable for an incredible amount of interpretation of the art.  

SBD, on the other hand, is tightly controlled by standardization.  Everyone is pretty much required to do the same thing.  Now I'm not saying that there are no differences from dojang to dojang, but I can always pick out the standardized Ill Soo Shik, Ho Sin Shul and Hyung anywhere I go.

IMHO, this will kill the evolution of SBD.  Standardization is a "top down" phenomenon where a small group of people decide the direction of the change.  Standardization effectively cuts off almost all of the creative potential of the federation because it limits the curricular power to think and explore concepts.

The bottom line is this...I am blown away much more often when I walk into a TSD dojang then what I walk into an SBD dojang.  Why?  I know what to expect with SBD.  There is no innovation.  

TSD is not like this.


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## exile

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> I've been doing work recently on Jae Nam (the form that predates the Pyong Ahn series and from where the Pyong Ahn's were derived).
> 
> JH



I'd thought that the Pyong Ahns were derived from the Pinans...not true? 

Do you know of a site that has vids (mpg, it would have to be for me to see it) or descriptions of Jae Nam? Thanks---


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## rmclain

Pyung Ahn (Korean language) forms are the Pinan forms are the Heian forms.  They are all the same form, just another language's terminology.  In English, you might call the form "Safe Defense,"  but that does not change the form.

What does change over the past 105 years or so, since these forms were created, is the application and interpretation of certain movements in the forms.

What I am curious about is from an earlier post.  According to every high-ranking Okinawa karate instructor I've come into contact with the Jae Nam form or series of forms were forgotten long ago.  This form or forms combined with Kusanku (Kong Son Kun in Korean schools) formed the movements that Yasutsune Itosu used to create the Pinan series (1-5).  

So, I am curious who is claiming to know the Jae Nam form(s) now?

R. McLain


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## exile

rmclain said:


> Pyung Ahn (Korean language) forms are the Pinan forms are the Heian forms.  They are all the same form, just another language's terminology.  In English, you might call the form "Safe Defense,"  but that does not change the form.



Yes, that's exactly what I thought. IWishToLearn has ingeniously conflated the Okinawan and Korean forms to `Peian'---wish I'd thought of it---and every reference I've ever seen to the Pyung-Ahns, plus what I've been able to see of their performance (not much---the best site for TKD vids, Master Mac's, is strictly wmv and I'm on Macs completely) supports their lineage as wholesale importation of the Peians. That's why I was so curious about what EoK says about the Jae Nams---I'd never heard of them before this thread started up.



rmclain said:


> What does change over the past 105 years or so, since these forms were created, is the application and interpretation of certain movements in the forms.
> 
> What I am curious about is from an earlier post.  According to every high-ranking Okinawa karate instructor I've come into contact with the Jae Nam form or series of forms were forgotten long ago.  This form or forms combined with Kusanku (Kong Son Kun in Korean schools) formed the movements that Yasutsune Itosu used to create the Pinan series (1-5).
> 
> So, I am curious who is claiming to know the Jae Nam form(s) now?
> 
> R. McLain



OK, I get it---I had read that one of the stories about the Peians was that they had been cut up from a single Chinese form by Itosu---it's a controversial theory I know, have heard interesting argument on both sides. The transcription I've seen for the name of the Chinese source form is Chaing-Nan---so I see what's up---just the usual variation in transcription practices. Sorry, EoK---it didn't click in my exhausted brain. Iain Abernethy has a nice guest column on Geoff Thompson's site giving a brief but fairly detailed history of the Peians, and doesn't seem to be taking sides in the debate---uses cautious phrasing e.g. `... it is said that he learned the kata "Chaing-Nan from a Chinese martial artist who was living in the Tomori region' and similarly non-committal constructions. But every source I've ever looked at on the `PyeiAns' says, or simply assumes, that the original form, and even whether or not there really was such a form, is currently unknown. I haven't encountered Kusanku in this context before---there's a nice site devoted to it at http://www.isshinryu.com/kusanku1.htm; there's also a terrific discussion of the relation among Kusanku, Gojushiho, and the Pinans at http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=10&Number=15852703&page=0&fpart=1... wish I had a month off to do nothing but read this stuff.


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## EmperorOfKentukki

Nope.  Jae Nam (or Channan or Chiang Nan) is sitll out there.  Just isn't seen very much.  But it is out there.   Do a search for Channan and you'll find one book and video is being sold by a fellow in NC.   

There are other sources as well.  Someone led me to a video file once (I can't remember where it came from ...but I saved it to a disk) and it had a young fellow performing a version of the Channan form.   

I've heard there may be a fellow in Florida that knows a version.  And, of course, purportedly there are still several people on Okinawa that know the form.

I know lots of folks will want better authentication of the form when they see it.   Keep on dreaming.   How much authentification did you ever see of the Bal Sae (Bassai) form........or Kong Sang Koon (Ku Shan Kun) for that matter.   The reason people don't question these forms as being authentic is because they are so prevalent among the various schools.  Channan on the other hand....isn't very well known at all.   It isn't the first time I've run across a rare form.   Sang Keuk Kwon is a fairly rare form too.

The Emperor


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## exile

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> Nope.  Jae Nam (or Channan or Chiang Nan) is sitll out there.  Just isn't seen very much.  But it is out there.   Do a search for Channan and you'll find one book and video is being sold by a fellow in NC.
> 
> There are other sources as well.  Someone led me to a video file once (I can't remember where it came from ...but I saved it to a disk) and it had a young fellow performing a version of the Channan form.
> 
> I've heard there may be a fellow in Florida that knows a version.  And, of course, purportedly there are still several people on Okinawa that know the form.



This is what you'd have to figure---if the form really is alive, there would have to be people in Okinawa who would be the sources, eh? I'm wondering---two different performances you refer to---(i) the version on the video you saved to disk, and (ii) the Channan form you refer to, with a book/video devoted to it---do they match up pretty well, enough to make it seem likely they really are from the same orignal kata? 



EmperorOfKentukki said:


> I know lots of folks will want better authentication of the form when they see it.   Keep on dreaming.   How much authentification did you ever see of the Bal Sae (Bassai) form........or Kong Sang Koon (Ku Shan Kun) for that matter.   The reason people don't question these forms as being authentic is because they are so prevalent among the various schools.  Channan on the other hand....isn't very well known at all.   It isn't the first time I've run across a rare form.   Sang Keuk Kwon is a fairly rare form too.
> 
> The Emperor



Sang Keuk Kwon is a Korean hyung, I'd guess from the way the name is transcribed... is this correct? I've never even _heard_ of this form... what is its history supposed to be?

And again, thanks for the good info!


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## EmperorOfKentukki

> Sang Keuk Kwon


 
Sang Keuk Kwon translates as 'Ultimate Supreme Fist'.   It is a Praying Mantis form.  

http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwon.doc

http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwan2004_1.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwan2004_2.jpg


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## exile

EmperorOfKentukki said:


> Sang Keuk Kwon translates as 'Ultimate Supreme Fist'.   It is a Praying Mantis form.
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwon.doc
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwan2004_1.jpg
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwan2004_2.jpg



Terrific---thanks for the links!


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## rmclain

I'll be in Okinawa from Nov 2-28.  I'll see if I can track down anyone claiming to instruct the Jae Nam (Channan) form or forms. 

R. McLain


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## rmclain

I just read the history from this link: http://www.geocities.com/auburntsdclub/SangKeukKwon.doc

I found the following quote interesting, "Looking at the genealogical chart on the following page, you will note that _Wei Xiao Tang_ taught the Korean Military in the 1920s."  

This seems very strange since Korea had already been occupied by the Japanese forces for 10 years by the time the 1920's even started.  To my knowledge, there was no "Korean" military remaining for years.

Also, Kim Ki-whang's instructor is listed as "unknown."  Actually, his instructor was Toyama Kanken at Nihon University, Tokyo, Japan.  Toyama called his school, "Shudo-kan."  Toyama was a direct student of Yasutsune Itosu for about 15 years.


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## EmperorOfKentukki

Thanks for the info on Kim Ki Whangs teacher.   I don't know why I missed that.  Anyway....I'll have to check back about that date for teaching the Korean Army.   I may have made a typo (say 1820).  I've got notes somewhere....if I can find them.

JH


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## Kyo Sa Lorena Cortes

I also wanted to get information about Yuk Ro hyungs and I found a few things, and they repeat the same in different websites, but nothing deep. Just that were recover from Grand Master Hwnag Kee in his study of the Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji, between 57 and 59, but I can´t trace its antiquity, its history, the descrption and explanation of their movements. Do you kwo where can I find that info? because I already look into the official soo bahk do website.


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## MBuzzy

In terms of published work, the only book that contains anything about the Yuk Ro hyung in their entirety is the Korean version of Soo Bahk Do Volume 2.  I'm working on translating it right now, but I haven't looked for historical information.  Even historical information on the Muye Dobo Tongji is a bit spotty.  You will notice many similarities between the Yuk Yo hyung and Chil Sungs as well as some of the higher forms.  It is possible that the Yuk Ros and Chil Sungs were created as "preparation" for the higher forms, much like the Pinan forms by Funakoshi.


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## dancingalone

MBuzzy said:


> It is possible that the Yuk Ros and Chil Sungs were created as "preparation" for the higher forms, much like the Pinan forms by Funakoshi.



The Pinan forms were created by Itosu.  Funakoshi changed the order of the first two, and it's not really known whether he or his students were responsible for making the other Shotokan changes to the kata compared to the Okinawan versions.


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## MBuzzy

dancingalone said:


> The Pinan forms were created by Itosu. Funakoshi changed the order of the first two, and it's not really known whether he or his students were responsible for making the other Shotokan changes to the kata compared to the Okinawan versions.


 
WOW - I'm sorry....I didn't even realize that I said that.  I get an "F" for today....I was in a hurry leaving the house this morning!

I do think that the Yuk Ros and Chil Sungs were created for many of the same reasons that the Pinans were - more to help build toward more advanced forms than to stand alone, although particularly in the higher Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros, there is some pretty advanced stuff.  There seems to be more of a progression in those forms from beginner to advanced.


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