# Ogoshi vs. Koshi Garuma



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

I was looking at a list of Kodokan Judo throws, remembering those I'd learned and relating others to what I know from elsewhere in my training. But I can't spot the difference between two of them in the excellent, but simplified animations. Ogoshi is a basic hip throw - what's different about Koshi Garuma?


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 6, 2019)

With Ogoshi, you wrap your arm around the opponent's waist. With Koshi Guruma, you wrap their head/neck. 

That's mostly it, although there are some minor differences which result from the different grips. With Koshi Guruma you can compromise the opponent's structure more due to the head control and you can insert and turn your own hips further without the grip getting in your way.

Generally Koshi Guruma is easier when you are taller than your opponent and Ogoshi is easier when you are shorter.


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## frank raud (Jun 6, 2019)

For hip placement, nothing. Hand placement is different. Ogoshi has your hands with one hand pulling on sleeve, one hand placed on uke's back to keep them in position. Koshi Garuma is a neck throw, one hand is wrapped around neck, one hand on sleeve.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> With Ogoshi, you wrap your arm around the opponent's waist. With Koshi Guruma, you wrap their head/neck.
> 
> That's mostly it, although there are some minor differences which result from the different grips. With Koshi Guruma you can compromise the opponent's structure more due to the head control and you can insert and turn your own hips further without the grip getting in your way.
> 
> Generally Koshi Guruma is easier when you are taller than your opponent and Ogoshi is easier when you are shorter.


Okay, that explains why I didn't see a difference - my primary classification wouldn't separate those (one would be an application of the other). Thanks, Tony!


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## frank raud (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, that explains why I didn't see a difference - my primary classification wouldn't separate those (one would be an application of the other). Thanks, Tony!


Is your primary classification based on hip position? With you in front of the uke, one hand on sleeve, one on back is ogoshi (or variants like obi goshi), one hand on sleeve, one around neck is Koshi Garuma, one hand on sleeve, one under same arm is seoi nage, one hand on sleeve, one hand over is makikomi. There are other throws that can be done from same hip position (morote seoi nage, yama arashi). Lots of variation from one position.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I was looking at a list of Kodokan Judo throws, remembering those I'd learned and relating others to what I know from elsewhere in my training. But I can't spot the difference between two of them in the excellent, but simplified animations. Ogoshi is a basic hip throw - what's different about Koshi Garuma?


You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.

It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw. The head lock hip throw does not make sense.

The hip throw require a "lift' motion. The head lock is a "sideway" motion (not even a downward motion). It makes no sense that you try to lift your opponent with your hip, at the same time that you press his head sideway with your head lock.

If you do head lock correctly, your opponent's spine will be bent side way. This side way bending spine won't work will with hip throw. If you don't bend your opponent's spine side way, your head lock won't be effective.

The horizontal circular head lock motion won't work will with the vertical up and down hip throw motion.

In the following clip, since A's head lock is a vertical up and down motion, B's free left hand can push A's head lock right arm forward and let B's head to slide off A's head lock. But if A's head lock is a horizontal side way motion, it will be much harder for B to escape out of A's head lock.






Here is a correct head lock. It's difficult to apply a hip throw from that position.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.
> 
> It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw. The head lock hip throw does not make sense.
> 
> ...


I think it would be easy to apply a hip throw from that position.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 7, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I think it would be easy to apply a hip throw from that position.


But hip throw is over the back throw (vertical) and not around the body throw. When your opponent's spine is bending side way, his balance is weak side way and not weak forward.

If you use your left leg to horse back kick, that will be a beautiful "leg blocking" throw (which is no longer a hip throw).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

frank raud said:


> Is your primary classification based on hip position? With you in front of the uke, one hand on sleeve, one on back is ogoshi (or variants like obi goshi), one hand on sleeve, one around neck is Koshi Garuma, one hand on sleeve, one under same arm is seoi nage, one hand on sleeve, one hand over is makikomi. There are other throws that can be done from same hip position (morote seoi nage, yama arashi). Lots of variation from one position.


NGA uses much broader classification. For instance, we have one formal sweeping technique (Leg Sweep, basically osoto gari). We teach all the others as variations on that theme, sometimes combined with other throws. So, in our minds, about 5 different Judo sweeping techniques are clearly just Leg Sweep. Some are from the front, but they're still Leg Sweep.

Somehow, a basic hip throw didn't make it into the formal curriculum. There's a throw very early on (Mugger's Throw) that - the way I teach it - is basically a variant of a drop seoi nage. There's a shoulder throw (pretty much seoi nage) late in the curriculum, as well as a spinning hip throw (which hasn't much resemblance to any Judo throw, and IMO is a drill for principles), but no standard hip throw. So I (and other instructors, even in the mainline of the art) have added one. Some day, I might actually make it one of the formal techniques, but I'd either have to ditch the symmetry (5 sets of 10 techniques) or replace one of the others. So for now it's just an extra thing I teach, like ground escapes and a single-leg.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"? Even if it may only take me 10 seconds to Goggle it. But for 1000 MT members, that will be 10,000 seconds.
> 
> It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw. The head lock hip throw does not make sense.
> 
> ...


Hip throw doesn't have to be a lifting (vertical) throw. The one that is taught late in the NGA curriculum uses a horizontal circle to power the throw. It's a bad example (not a terribly practical throw, because it lacks a strong connection, IMO), but it shows how far from vertical a hip throw can get. I can easily do a hip throw over a range of angles, as long as I can get the hip inside and a bit low. I think where the difficulty comes from is when you're trying to get a tight headlock. The headlock isn't the point, though, the throw is, so you only need enough of a headlock to connect the throw properly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But hip throw is over the back throw (vertical) and not around the body throw. When your opponent's spine is bending side way, his balance is weak side way and not weak forward.
> 
> If you use your left leg to horse back kick, that will be a beautiful "leg blocking" throw (which is no longer a hip throw).


A half-step underneath with the leg, and there's enough hip connection to send them over the hip. The direction of the throw won't be vertical - probably closer to 45 degrees.


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## frank raud (Jun 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can't assume people to understand the Japanese terms (such as Ogoshi, Koshi Garuma). What's wrong just to use "hip throw" and "head lock hip throw"?


 Two things. It is quite proper in the JUDO forum to use judo terminology. If Gerry knew the difference between them, he wouldn't have made the thread.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> It makes sense to use under hook and use your palm to push the back of your opponent's head when you execute hip throw


 If you place your rear hand on the back of opponent's head, you don't have any control of his hips, making it easy for him to shift his hips and counter. It may work differently in Chinese wrestling, but this is the judo forum.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a correct head lock. It's difficult to apply a hip throw from that position.


 Thank you for informing us of the ONE true way to do a headlock. But Koshi Garuma is not a head lock. It is a neck throw.


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## wab25 (Jun 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a correct head lock. It's difficult to apply a hip throw from that position.


I don't know... seems to work okay for some people...


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## wab25 (Jun 7, 2019)

Frank is right... this is a Judo forum... where are my manners?

Please accept my apology...


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 7, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I don't know... seems to work okay for some people...


Yep.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 7, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Frank is right... this is a Judo forum... where are my manners?
> 
> Please accept my apology...


Jinx!


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## frank raud (Jun 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hip throw require a "lift' motion. The head lock is a "sideway" motion (not even a downward motion). It makes no sense that you try to lift your opponent with your hip, at the same time that you press his head sideway with your head lock.


 Judo terminology will usually tell you a lot about how a throw is done and where the emphasis should be. Koshi  (hip) garuma (wheel). Hiza (knee) garuma (wheel). The emphasis in Koshi Garuma is wheeling the uke over your hip, not your back. In Hiza garuma, the fulcrum point is the knee.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> But hip throw is over the back throw (vertical) and not around the body throw. When your opponent's spine is bending side way, his balance is weak side way and not weak forward.
> 
> If you use your left leg to horse back kick, that will be a beautiful "leg blocking" throw (which is no longer a hip throw).


In my opinion, it is the same thing.


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## JP3 (Jun 7, 2019)

Gerry, the "principle" difference is in the name. particularly the goshi vs. garuma parts of the names. Remember garuma means "wheel" generally understood to mean the body part about which you are rotating. koshigaruma was told to me loosely means head wheel, and what Wang's saying is how it was explained to me instead of just being an alternate grip hip throw. With the head trapped as part of the throwing grip, you really don't need the lifting action of the hip throw, though I find myself almost always doing it due to muscle memory on the entry.

Thing is, that difference is... sort of hard to feel when you're actually in flow with someone, it ends up not being much of a practical difference at all. It's a tall guy grip ona short uy, and a way to get a hip throw on a shorter guy is how it seems to usually end up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Gerry, the "principle" difference is in the name. particularly the goshi vs. garuma parts of the names. Remember garuma means "wheel" generally understood to mean the body part about which you are rotating. koshigaruma was told to me loosely means head wheel, and what Wang's saying is how it was explained to me instead of just being an alternate grip hip throw. With the head trapped as part of the throwing grip, you really don't need the lifting action of the hip throw, though I find myself almost always doing it due to muscle memory on the entry.
> 
> Thing is, that difference is... sort of hard to feel when you're actually in flow with someone, it ends up not being much of a practical difference at all. It's a tall guy grip ona short uy, and a way to get a hip throw on a shorter guy is how it seems to usually end up.


Thanks - that fits with how I'd do the two variations. I often wonder how much of my grappling is still influenced by my relatively brief time in Judo. I thought in the past it wasn't much, but the more I look into Judo, the more I see things that explain the difference between some of my NGA and the NGA of others I trained with.


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## JR 137 (Jun 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Thanks - that fits with how I'd do the two variations. I often wonder how much of my grappling is still influenced by my relatively brief time in Judo. I thought in the past it wasn't much, but the more I look into Judo, the more I see things that explain the difference between some of my NGA and the NGA of others I trained with.


Maybe take up some Judo in your spare time?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Maybe take up some Judo in your spare time?


If I had the money to sign up for some classes, I’d be thinking hard about that.


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## JP3 (Jun 13, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Maybe take up some Judo in your spare time?


Spare time... spare change... who has any of either?


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 25, 2019)

A true O Goshi was always hard for me as it contorted my spine a bit to get that reach around grip on the opponent's back while simultaneously squaring up my hips against their lower body. Outside of a Judo school, it probably seems like splitting hairs since they look so similar, but Uki Goshi (floating half hip throw) has a different entry that makes it a little more doable for me. When sparring BJJ with taller lanky people, I fight for an under hook and sometimes get an Uki Goshi type hip throw easily. Like other people have already commented, with an opponent shorter than you - the higher neck grip for Koshi Guruma is more accessible and therefore logical.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 25, 2019)

PiedmontChun said:


> with an opponent shorter than you - the higher neck grip for Koshi Guruma is more accessible and therefore logical.


If you are 6 ft and your opponent is 4 ft, it makes no sense to throw him over your hip (vertical up). Any side way throw (horizontal around your body) will be better.

If you are 4 ft and your opponent is 6 ft, it will be difficult for you to reach to his neck.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are 6 ft and your opponent is 4 ft, it makes no sense to throw him over your hip (vertical up). Any side way throw (horizontal around your body) will be better.
> 
> If you are 4 ft and your opponent is 6 ft, it will be difficult for you to reach to his neck.



Well... yeah. I was envisioning someone a few inches taller vs someone a few inches shorter.

If I was 6 ft and they were 4 ft, I'd probably Uchi Mata (or I'd probably get kicked out of the kid's grappling class for throwing 4 ft tall grapplers around). If I was 4 ft and they were 6 ft, I'd probably avoid gi grips altogether and single leg them. But these are strange hypotheticals.


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## JR 137 (Jun 26, 2019)

If he’s 4ft tall...

You don't need karate. You can just wring his neck.


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## lklawson (Jul 24, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I was looking at a list of Kodokan Judo throws, remembering those I'd learned and relating others to what I know from elsewhere in my training. But I can't spot the difference between two of them in the excellent, but simplified animations. Ogoshi is a basic hip throw - what's different about Koshi Garuma?


The 67 Kodokan Judo Throws – Nagewaza – Judo Info

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2019)

lklawson said:


> The 67 Kodokan Judo Throws – Nagewaza – Judo Info
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


That is precisely the list I was looking at when I posted that originally, Kirk. I don't recall the video links being there at the time, but my memory for details like that sucks, so...

Looking at the videos, I had to go back and look at Tony's description of the difference, because my mind sees them as the same throw (in NGA, they'd be different applications of the same throw) - I notice the hip action, pull, etc, but not the precise arm position difference when I view them quickly.


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## Aegis (May 3, 2020)

Just spotted this while perusing the forum, and I have to disagree.  

This won't be absolutely authoritative by any means, as my interpretation of these throws comes from my style of jujutsu as well as my research into translations and interpretations of the original Kodokan techniques.  Importantly, this comes flavoured with the view from my style that a throw is ultimately defined by the effect that it has on uke far more than on specific positioning of tori.

As a result of this, I think the comments about hand positions are misleading.  Someone shorter than their opponent can do koshi-guruma or o-goshi with arms around the waist, someone taller can do both throws with arms around the neck or down the back.  

Where a difference for tori really comes in is the foot positioning and the degree of hip insertion.  Koshi guruma is, for me, the deepest turn and therefore the deepest hip insertion of all of the hip throws, with my foot position getting close to perpendicular with uke's, and uke almost folds directly over my hips when I do this as a result.  This very deep turn has an impact on the balance take at the start, which needs a degree of sideways movement that I don't normally expect to need for o-goshi.

Going back to o-goshi, the difference starts at the balance take - less (no) sideways, more forwards.  The entry then leads to an almost parallel stance to uke's, with hips extended enough to block uke's natural step.  Rather than simply rolling over tori's hips, uke should feel like they are travelling a path from tori's extended hip upwards to tori's rear shoulder, then over into a throw.  

Once you start identifying differences between these throws you can then start picking up on other similarities.  For example, there are definite overlaps between o-guruma and koshi-guruma that do not exist when considering o-goshi instead, and understanding these commonalities more is really helping me deepen my understanding of the core principles of the throws that make up my art.


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## drop bear (May 3, 2020)

Tony Dismukes said:


> With Ogoshi, you wrap your arm around the opponent's waist. With Koshi Guruma, you wrap their head/neck.
> 
> That's mostly it, although there are some minor differences which result from the different grips. With Koshi Guruma you can compromise the opponent's structure more due to the head control and you can insert and turn your own hips further without the grip getting in your way.
> 
> Generally Koshi Guruma is easier when you are taller than your opponent and Ogoshi is easier when you are shorter.



We mostly do koshi Guruma but it is probably positional. Fighting from when they have an underhooks or something.

I am not sure.

Anyway Dan Kelly does it.


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## frank raud (May 7, 2020)

Aegis said:


> This won't be absolutely authoritative by any means, as my interpretation of these throws comes from my style of jujutsu as well as my research into translations and interpretations of the original Kodokan techniques.





Aegis said:


> Where a difference for tori really comes in is the foot positioning and the degree of hip insertion.


Interesting. In the style of jiu jitsu I studied, based on Kawaishi jiu jitsu and Kodokan judo, the hip position was the same for o-goshi, seoi-nage, makki komi and kube nage(neck throw, slightly different from Koshi Guruma). The difference is the position of the hands and arms ( o-goshi, one hand on back, usually to control hips, other hand at elbow of uke, seoi-nage, one hand under the arm, one hand over arm at elbow, makki komi, one hand grasping arm from above, other hand in same position as other throws, and for kube nage, one arm wrapped around neck and lifting, other hand in same position as other throws. When I switched to Kodokan judo, my senseis never corrected any of that. They were totally disapproving of how I would do breakfalls, but no issues with my throwing techniques.


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