# Getting slammed....yikes



## TMA17 (Jun 13, 2019)

Pretty scary to watch.  On pavement these guys would be dead.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 13, 2019)

This is why pull guard and jump guard are both bad idea. It's better to be on top. It's bad to be on the bottom.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 14, 2019)

I still dont get why IBJJ tournaments dont allow slamming.   If you are going to literally attach yourself to the torso of someone, you should expect them to throw you down on the floor.  

I think i got the right acronym.  Just seems like a bad habit as instinctually slamming seems like it fits better.


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## TMA17 (Jun 14, 2019)

I think you're right. I also think it can give BJJ players a false sense of security.  This is why crosstraining in Judo/Wrestling with takedowns is imperative.  In a street altercation, if you're going up someone very strong....like some stocky bull type of guy that lifts weights, you better be prepared to be picked up and slammed....or be able to take them down first.  My .02

Even Ben Askren got slammed hard, and he's a wrestler.  He got lucky it wasn't on a slightly different angle.  Lawler is strong and just picked him up.


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## Martial D (Jun 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why pull guard and jump guard are both bad idea. It's better to be on top. It's bad to be on the bottom.


Ya. Unless you are on a mat under jitz rules.

It's important to know what to do from the bottom in a fight, but it's still the second last place you ever want to be.


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## drop bear (Jun 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why pull guard and jump guard are both bad idea. It's better to be on top. It's bad to be on the bottom.



Jump guard is for people who don't want to risk being slammed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 14, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Jump guard is for people who don't want to risk being slammed.


How can you prevent that?


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## frank raud (Jun 14, 2019)

TMA17 said:


> This is why crosstraining in Judo/Wrestling with takedowns is imperative


 Training Judo won't help you with this. Daki-age stops with the lift. You lift the uke up, and the ref calls it.


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## Buka (Jun 14, 2019)

I always hated getting slammed. Even little slams. And I was always careful not to slam anyone.


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How can you prevent that?



You don't jump high. You just butt flop


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You don't jump high. You just butt flop


So, it's really pretty much half a sacrifice throw - just focused on getting into guard, rather than trying to get a throw?


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> So, it's really pretty much half a sacrifice throw - just focused on getting into guard, rather than trying to get a throw?



Yeah.


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## Headhunter (Jun 15, 2019)

Rat said:


> I still dont get why IBJJ tournaments dont allow slamming.   If you are going to literally attach yourself to the torso of someone, you should expect them to throw you down on the floor.
> 
> I think i got the right acronym.  Just seems like a bad habit as instinctually slamming seems like it fits better.


Because you can cripple someone if you do it wrong that's why


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 15, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> Because you can cripple someone if you do it wrong that's why



Which is why they should train to avoid getting slammed and be exposed to the ability to be slammed.  Shouldn't be habit for it not to be present the reverse should be and works better.  

Better to do it on a mat/padded surface anyway than on concrete and brick.


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

Rat said:


> Which is why they should train to avoid getting slammed and be exposed to the ability to be slammed.  Shouldn't be habit for it not to be present the reverse should be and works better.
> 
> Better to do it on a mat/padded surface anyway than on concrete and brick.



In training yeah. MMA you can slam all you want.

But it is hard in competition. Because once you start it you can't stop it. And so is very hard to protect against a life altering action.

And people really shouldn't get crippled doing sport. It is generally considered a vehicle to make people stronger and better. Not worse.

The issue is grappling is about one of the most dangerous things you can do to someone. 

You can kill people with it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You can kill people with it.


You use

- jump guard, your opponent slams you.
- high kick, your opponent kicks your groin.
- single leg, your opponent punches your head.
- waist wrapping hip throw, your opponent cracks your elbow.
- bear hug, your opponent break your neck.
- ...

It's your fault to put yourself into that situation. It should be your responsibility to prevent yourself not to get into that situation.


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You use
> 
> - jump guard, your opponent slams you.
> - high kick, your opponent kicks your groin.
> ...



You realize these are not death matches right?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> You realize these are not death matches right?


MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock. The best counter for a technique may be deadly, but the best counter is still the best counter. If we take away the most effective counter, then what's the purpose of our MA training?


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock. The best counter for a technique may be deadly, but the best counter is still the best counter. If we take away the most effective counter, then what's the purpose of our MA training?



Have you fought many death matches?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Have you fought many death matches?


What does that have to do with "to find the right key to open the right lock"? A good counter is still a good counter.

You train body slam on the mat everyday. It doesn't mean that you have to hurt people with that.

To have the ability to finish a fight is not the same as you have to use it all the time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> MA training is to find the right key to open the right lock. The best counter for a technique may be deadly, but the best counter is still the best counter. If we take away the most effective counter, then what's the purpose of our MA training?


You don't have to take away best counters in training. There, you can know you're working with someone you trust.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Have you fought many death matches?


If you know when you use this technique, you may hurt your opponent badly, will you still train it?


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What does that have to do with "to find the right key to open the right lock"? A good counter is still a good counter.
> 
> You train body slam on the mat everyday. It doesn't mean that you have to hurt people with that.
> 
> To have the ability to finish a fight is not the same as you have to use it all the time.



Competitions with rule sets that consistently cripple fighters don't tend to attract a high quality fighter.

Especially at a basic level.

The issue with a slam is yes I can do it nicely or I can break your neck. And the difference is very hard to judge.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You don't have to take away best counters in training. There, you can know you're working with someone you trust.


In training, you don't slam your opponent. But your opponent still need to train how to fall safely in that situation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Competitions with rule sets that consistently cripple fighters don't tend to attract a high quality fighter.
> 
> Especially at a basic level.
> 
> The issue with a slam is yes I can do it nicely or I can break your neck. And the difference is very hard to judge.


When you try to slam me, I can let go my grips and use my arms to protect my head, I can survive through your hard smashing. But if I refuse to let go my grips and still try to drag you down with me, I deserve to be slammed.

That's the problem for those body slam video. People still don't understand that they should forget about winning and losing but protect their heads, protect their heads, and still protect their heads.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 15, 2019)

It doesn't make sense that you can use jump guard or pull guard on me but I can't use body slam you. If the rule doesn't allow body slam, the rule should also doesn't allow jump guard and pull guard.

Does it make sense that you are allowed to use single leg on me but I am not allow to punch on your head?


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## drop bear (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It doesn't make sense that you can use jump guard or pull guard on me but I can't use body slam you. If the rule doesn't allow body slam, the rule should also doesn't allow jump guard and pull guard.
> 
> Does it make sense that you are allowed to use single leg on me but I am not allow to punch on your head?



Does it make sense that you can slam me but I can't hire a dwarf to run out from the crowd and hit you with a chair?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you try to slam me, I can let go my grips and use my arms to protect my head, I can survive through your hard smashing. But if I refuse to let go my grips and still try to drag you down with me, I deserve to be slammed.
> 
> That's the problem for those body slam video. People still don't understand that they should forget about winning and losing but protect their heads, protect their heads, and still protect their heads.


Do you really think none of those people would rather not be knocked out?


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## Hanzou (Jun 15, 2019)

I'd just like to add that pulling or jumping guard isn't going to always automatically lead to the person doing it getting slammed. Just look at Kron Gracie's guard pulls in MMA where slamming is allowed. Like all takedowns, it has its pros and cons. If someone pulls guard on you, you're not always going to be able to stop it.

 Putting someone in your guard can be highly advantageous if you know what you're doing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> I'd just like to add that pulling or jumping guard isn't going to always automatically lead to the person doing it getting slammed. Just look at Kron Gracie's guard pulls in MMA where slamming is allowed. Like all takedowns, it has its pros and cons. If someone pulls guard on you, you're not always going to be able to stop it.
> 
> Putting someone in your guard can be highly advantageous if you know what you're doing.


Agreed. If it's done with the right opening, it's effective. Like most things.


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## Buka (Jun 16, 2019)

I have found that the Guard is not only dismissed in general by people in the Martial Arts, but considered dangerous, taboo even.

I have also found that many that say that don't know diddly squat about pulling guard.


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## JP3 (Jun 16, 2019)

Drop someone on their head, most of the time they'll be out just like in the video. It's no fun. Well, unless you happen to be the SlammER.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 16, 2019)

Buka said:


> I have found that the Guard is not only dismissed in general by people in the Martial Arts, but considered dangerous, taboo even.
> 
> I have also found that many that say that don't know diddly squat about pulling guard.


I really hate guard. I hate being in it and I hate trying to pass it. And if somebody pulls it on me properly, I damned sure don't want to be on the ground with them.


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## Buka (Jun 16, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you know when you use this technique, you may hurt your opponent badly, will you still train it?



Nah.


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## Hanzou (Jun 18, 2019)

Buka said:


> I have found that the Guard is not only dismissed in general by people in the Martial Arts, but considered dangerous, taboo even.
> 
> I have also found that many that say that don't know diddly squat about pulling guard.



Some of the most hilarious videos I've seen on the web are anti-Guard videos by people who have no idea what they're doing.

The most (in)famous one being Stephen K. Hayes' attempt to escape;






Truly, an American classic.


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## Buka (Jun 18, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Some of the most hilarious videos I've seen on the web are anti-Guard videos by people who have no idea what they're doing.
> 
> The most (in)famous one being Stephen K. Hayes' attempt to escape;
> 
> ...



I'll bet he wishes he had that day back.


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## JR 137 (Jun 18, 2019)

Hanzou said:


> Some of the most hilarious videos I've seen on the web are anti-Guard videos by people who have no idea what they're doing.
> 
> The most (in)famous one being Stephen K. Hayes' attempt to escape;
> 
> ...


The problem with people like that is they don’t work with other people who genuinely know what they’re doing. They may even work with someone with a few months of experience, but that’s about it. If they worked with an actual expert, they’d probably be able to come up with something functional.

It was like the Wing Chun guy defending singles and doubles with pushing the guy down and/or chain punching his head. He had a guy shooting in on him who obviously had no clue how to do it under any amount of pressure.

If you want to come up with realistic answers to wrestlers, you work with experienced wrestlers. If you want to come up with realistic answers to boxers, you work with experienced boxers. And so on. Wrestle/spar/roll/whatever else with someone who knows what they’re doing. Ask them how they address things. Formulate something that fits your ideas, try it. Repeat as necessary. 

In this day and age, there’s no excuse for not finding people outside your style/organization who are willing to exchange ideas. Except stupidity, of course.


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## pdg (Jun 21, 2019)

drop bear said:


> hire a dwarf to run out from the crowd and hit you with a chair?



I'm adding that to my technique list.


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## punisher73 (Jun 24, 2019)

An oldie but a goodie...


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## punisher73 (Jun 24, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> The problem with people like that is they don’t work with other people who genuinely know what they’re doing. They may even work with someone with a few months of experience, but that’s about it. If they worked with an actual expert, they’d probably be able to come up with something functional.
> 
> It was like the Wing Chun guy defending singles and doubles with pushing the guy down and/or chain punching his head. He had a guy shooting in on him who obviously had no clue how to do it under any amount of pressure.
> 
> ...



I agree with your above assessment. 

I also think part of the problem is that many instructors and students don't set the parameters of what they are teaching.  Students of grappling see that positon, and automatically think he is addressing the "guard" and that the person knows what they are doing if they are in that position.  Grappling students forget that long before the BJJ craze, it was and still is a common position to end up in during a streetfight by two untrained people.  Many instructors don't preface what they are teaching as, "this will work against an untrained person who doesn't know grappling".  Same with many "tackle" techniques.  Grapplers/Wrestlers see a tackle and automatically think that they are supposed to be doing a skilled double/single leg takedown.  In many cases, it's not.  It's an untrained guy trying to tackle you and doesn't know anything about the proper technique.  Same thing, instructors don't label specifically what they are doing as they teach basic defenses against an untrained guy and what options and what defenses against someone that has more training.


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## punisher73 (Jun 24, 2019)

This is why some techniques are banned, it can go wrong very quickly.

Also, some techniques aren't used in specific competitions because they want to highlight a more skilled approach.  If someone pulls guard, and I just pick them up and then slam them down on the ground, I haven't used any skill to escape the guard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 25, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> I agree with your above assessment.
> 
> I also think part of the problem is that many instructors and students don't set the parameters of what they are teaching.  Students of grappling see that positon, and automatically think he is addressing the "guard" and that the person knows what they are doing if they are in that position.  Grappling students forget that long before the BJJ craze, it was and still is a common position to end up in during a streetfight by two untrained people.  Many instructors don't preface what they are teaching as, "this will work against an untrained person who doesn't know grappling".  Same with many "tackle" techniques.  Grapplers/Wrestlers see a tackle and automatically think that they are supposed to be doing a skilled double/single leg takedown.  In many cases, it's not.  It's an untrained guy trying to tackle you and doesn't know anything about the proper technique.  Same thing, instructors don't label specifically what they are doing as they teach basic defenses against an untrained guy and what options and what defenses against someone that has more training.


Well said.


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## PiedmontChun (Jun 25, 2019)

With jumping guard, its risky but its a calculated risk. You have locked yourself to your opponent's body and have to be prepared to react quickly if they give any indication they are going to slam. Some people jump guard. I don't, but I am a big guy and you don't see that as much with larger grapplers so not surprising.
With closed guard in general, *you don't let your opponent stand up*. Very recently I competed, and I ended up with my opponent in my closed guard at some point in several matches. With the exception of one really new grappler that I quickly swept, every single person eventually tried to stand up to break the guard, and I did not let them, and it clearly frustrated them. If they stand on one leg and are off center at all, sweep them. If they step up with one leg and begin to stand, you hook the closest leg before they can finish standing. If they somehow manage to stand up on both legs, there are still sweep options (albeit lower percentage) rather than bring your back off the mat and choosing to lock yourself to them up high.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 25, 2019)

- A uses jump guard on B.
- B drops elbow (or forearm) on A's throat. This is easy to do when B has cross lapel hold on A.

Is that bad for A?

How can A prevents that from happening since B's both arms are free?







In the following picture. If person on the right can hold up his opponent, he can drop down forward himself and smash his forearm right on his opponent's throat.


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## dunc (Jun 26, 2019)

It's worth noting that in the older Japanese systems jumping guard is accompanied by strikes to knock your opponent backwards which frustrates the option to slam

I do, however, agree that guard players need to study how to prevent getting picked up and the timing for opening guard if your opponent does stand. Both these are foundational skills in BJJ for example


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## adamr01 (Jul 14, 2019)

punisher73 said:


> This is why some techniques are banned, it can go wrong very quickly.
> 
> Also, some techniques aren't used in specific competitions because they want to highlight a more skilled approach.  If someone pulls guard, and I just pick them up and then slam them down on the ground, I haven't used any skill to escape the guard.


I agree. While I like how effective the technique is, it seems too dangerous for competition.


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

It’s very very hard to find wrestling as an adult 
I would look at mma gyms 

BJJ usually sucks at take downs


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What does that have to do with "to find the right key to open the right lock"? A good counter is still a good counter.
> 
> You train body slam on the mat everyday. It doesn't mean that you have to hurt people with that.
> 
> To have the ability to finish a fight is not the same as you have to use it all the time.



That move is so beyond me 
You can use the same body lock from side or rear and do basic trips .
 That suplex is for real grecko warriors and not the avg man
 It’s like the spinning heel kick 
No way


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

Knee picks and ankle picks can work too 

suplex , High crouch and shooting in require insane speed and strength 
I cannot pick up more than 90 Ibs lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why pull guard and jump guard are both bad idea. It's better to be on top. It's bad to be on the bottom.


IMO, this take down is better than the pull guard. You will end on top and you don't have to deal with your opponent's body weight.


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, this take down is better than the pull guard. You will end on top and you don't have to deal with your opponent's body weight.


That TD would shake my bones


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

That has to be a judo class ??
Judo is very popular in France and all over the world except in the USA 

I think BJJ has become too consuming too most that they never learn a strike


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

I only do BJJ 2-3 hrs a week and after 18 months I have far more questions than I did when I started lol 

I have done a Darci many hundreds of times at home but during rolling I messed it up lol


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

I only do the No-gi and I will be a white belt for life


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## quasar44 (Jan 2, 2020)

A few good take downs that are basic 

1) side body lock to front leg trip 
2) rear body lock to forward trip 
3) rear body lock to behind drag 
4) under hook or head control to knee pick 
5) stand up double leg !!!
6) run the pipe single  
7) head and wrist control to ankle pick 

8) super cool low single !!!!


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## drop bear (Jan 2, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> That has to be a judo class ??
> Judo is very popular in France and all over the world except in the USA
> 
> I think BJJ has become too consuming too most that they never learn a strike



Be a Chinese wrestling. Hip throws are not the sole property of judo.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> That has to be a judo class ?


- Judo uses long sleeve jacket.
- Shuai Chiao, or Shuai Jiao (Chinese wrestling) uses short sleeve jacket.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 3, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> That TD would shake my bones


These 2 throws can be worse. 

1. You don't know which part of your body will land first.






2. You know your head will land first.


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## pdg (Jan 16, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> I cannot pick up more than 90 Ibs lol



Seriously? How much do you weigh?

My mower weighs quite a bit more than that, and in the cutting season I'm lifting that in and out of the trailer 5-6 times a day.

The most I've knowingly carried (weighed for shipping) was 3 small engines and some parts in a crate - 75kg (165lb) - had to lift that and carry it 50yds from the shed to the courier van. I know I've shifted more, but hadn't weighed it...

Just picking that much up and dropping it, no challenge at all.

I'm not particularly strong.


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## quasar44 (Jan 16, 2020)

pdg said:


> Seriously? How much do you weigh?
> 
> My mower weighs quite a bit more than that, and in the cutting season I'm lifting that in and out of the trailer 5-6 times a day.
> 
> ...



I know several body lock trips !!
I am 6-1 and 155 only and I cannot pick anyone up


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## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> I am 6-1 and 155 only and I cannot pick anyone up



So that makes you 2-3" taller than me.

And it makes you 3-4lbs heavier than I was last time I weighed myself about 2 years ago. (I'm probably a bit heavier at the moment, I was ill for a while last year and I've definitely got squishier.)

You're certainly not underweight by any stretch of the imagination, but from your description you're definitely understrong.

Barring any physical/medical reason not to, I'd recommend you get some strength training done.



Edit to add: you're also only 1 year older than me as well, so it's not like I'm expecting you to be like a 20 year old...


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## quasar44 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> So that makes you 2-3" taller than me.
> 
> And it makes you 3-4lbs heavier than I was last time I weighed myself about 2 years ago. (I'm probably a bit heavier at the moment, I was ill for a while last year and I've definitely got squishier.)
> 
> ...



you really think you can suplex me over your head ??
 My new coach has shown me several body lock trips and tosses that I can do 

my private wrestling coach never showed me any of these super cool moves and now I May fire him


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## quasar44 (Jan 17, 2020)

I feel from body locks I have 4 good rear TD and 2 good side TD
 That is enough and I hope the coach won’t keep adding because this is plenty


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## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> you really think you can suplex me over your head ??



If by suplex you mean what Google shows (I'm not a wrestler/grappler - picking you up from behind so you're effectively sat on my shoulder and falling over backwards?) then yeah, don't see why not. Depends how much you struggle 

I wouldn't though, because I'm not sure about having a suitable technique to protect myself while doing it.

If it was really the only sort of move open, then I'd do it, but I wouldn't go down with you - so I'd probably be incorrect in my application.

Being a tkd guy, I'm more likely to go for "kick to the head" instead.


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## pdg (Jan 17, 2020)

quasar44 said:


> I feel from body locks I have 4 good rear TD and 2 good side TD
> That is enough and I hope the coach won’t keep adding because this is plenty



Do you have anything from the front?


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## quasar44 (Jan 17, 2020)

pdg said:


> Do you have anything from the front?



Only one basic one


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