# rolling



## mrhnau (Oct 5, 2005)

I recently started studying, and have been having some issues keeping my rolls tight. I come from an Aikido background, and was wondering if others have found the transition difficult?

On a side issue, two other students (3rd kyu and 4th kyu) are the only regular students. They have really tight rolls and look really great. I'm wondering a few things. how much practice does it take to really get them effective? I'm about a foot taller than everyone else in the class, can I realistically expect to get them as tight and small as others? I don't want to mimic them, but I want to know what my realistic aim should be.

I've enjoyed taking classes so far. So much to learn! I would appreciate your insight!

MrH


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## Don Roley (Oct 5, 2005)

I had the same type of trouble when I took a semester of aikido. You just have to work on it. Try to get extra tight when you practice to build the habits. And for a long time, years... maybe decades, your body will go with the old program when you are under stress and not thinking about things. The only thing you can do is be very mindfull of what you are doing when training in something that is close, but different and be prepared to spend a lot of time on the matter.


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## Mountain Kusa (Oct 5, 2005)

What Don said too...... Oh, hey, try to relax, I find that as people start out they tend to be really tense. This in effect will make you bigger and longer and make you essentially a brick. It has nothing to do with weight either, so dont let your mind fall into that trap. I have seen small thin people that are bricks, just relax, go as slow as possible and feel your way through the roll.  You will find that if you can relax here, it will weave its way through your taijutsu.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 5, 2005)

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> just relax, go as slow as possible and feel your way through the roll.


 I have this problem... not being able to relax, and my ukemi suffers a lot as a result.  I have this innate fear of hitting the ground that, despite the hundreds of times I have done it, will NOT go away.  

 I have discovered on occasion when I NEEDED my ukemi it came pretty naturally... not the best and prettyest, but its always kept me alive and reasonably safe, so SOMTHING has sunk in... 

 So just practice practice practice and eventually it may be second nature.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Oct 6, 2005)

To make things tighter you might want to practice falling without using your arms at all. For some reason, that's ALWAYS easier when you're being thrown and have to, than when you're doing it by yourself.


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## rutherford (Oct 6, 2005)

This is what I think now about rolling, and I'm still far from smooth on sideways or back rolls.

Make sure to move slowly to harder surfaces, but also make sure to try out your rolls on harder surfaces.  Once you've rolled a few times on pavement and not suffered terrible injury you'll have less fear of the ground.  But one bad roll on a wood floor can also cause you to tense up on the next attempt.  Do your first couple from a very low starting point.  

Roll from all fours, your knees, from standing, and after a throw or leap. 

Breathing is key.  Have your instructor explain this if you don't understand.

Once your body learns to move in a circle, it does so fairly easily.  It's fun to see how this relates to standing taijutsu, twisting the spine, etc.

Do a few every day.


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## Shogun (Oct 6, 2005)

I had the same problem. years of aikido before Taijutsu. the only pointers (other than practice) are stuff like:

-Try to bring your body close to the ground before rolling.
-when practicing, try to roll as quietly as possible.
-try rolling under stuff. have someone hold a yard stick or something adn roll under it.

peace


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## Kizaru (Oct 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I have this problem... not being able to relax, and my ukemi suffers a lot as a result. I have this innate fear of hitting the ground that, despite the hundreds of times I have done it, will NOT go away.
> .....it may be second nature.


I think it's great that you bring that up; the "innate fear". Two of the Japanese shihan here have explained on numerous occassions how using this "innate fear" was one of the founding principles of Ninpo Taijutsu. They've refered to this "innate fear " as the _tachinaori hansha_ or in English, "the righting reflex". The righting reflex overrides all other human reflexes. If you are about to sneeze and suddenly lose your balance, the sneeze will be held off until you regain your balance by either a) coming upright again or b)hitting the floor. Same as if you were to hiccup, burp, vomit, yawn etc etc. This is why off the first move we "take" or "disrupt" (_kuzushi) _our opponent's balance. That moment of "innate fear" or disrupted balance is what creates the space for us to follow up with a lock and finish a strike or throw. Unless the opponent is really accustomed to their own righting reflex, they will have to right themselves before thinking about a counter. We practice _ukemi_ as much as we do so that we can become accustomed to our own righting reflex, and since we're all human, by doing that we're also learning about our opponent's righting reflex as well. 

As far as being able to relax when facing this "innate fear", it almost sounds as if this could be a form of "meditation" itself if seen from a certain perspective. Or it could just be some good, clean, goofy fun...

On a side note, another shihan once told me that when Hatsumi sensei was teaching Judo at a local high school in Noda, he would roll home afterwards occasionally rather than walk. Whether or not he was trying to upset my mental balance with that story I don't know, but I thought it was interesting.



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> -when practicing, try to roll as quietly as possible...


I couldn't agree with you more!


:asian::asian::asian:


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## Mountain Kusa (Oct 6, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> -when practicing, try to roll as quietly as possible.


 Weird, last Night I was having all of us doing quiet rolls. In addition to this, no talking either. Next week we are going to have a no talking at all class. It will be monkey see, monkey do. It should be interesting to say the least. Communication will be only by nonverbal means. From my own perspective, when we are not worrying about moving our mouths, we concentrate on our training.


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## Fallen Ninja (Oct 11, 2005)

Try getting close to the ground when you are first starting. This might take away some of the fear of falling down so hard. Also try exhaling when you ukemi... The bottom line is: you have to do what is right for you.

FN


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## Bigshadow (Oct 12, 2005)

Fallen Ninja said:
			
		

> Try getting close to the ground when you are first starting. This might take away some of the fear of falling down so hard. Also try exhaling when you ukemi... The bottom line is: you have to do what is right for you.
> FN


 I wanted to expound on the statement that you have to do what is right for you. Physiologically we are all somewhat unique with our joint mobility, flexibility, and body mass. I think this slightly changes the mechanics of rolling, but I think the principles remain true across the board.

     I see these things as primary fundamentals (there are more detail *see your instructor)

     1. Stay relaxed
     2. Exhale, don't hold your breath through the roll
     3. Don't jam joints into the ground (knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, etc)

 Do them outside of the dojo when at home or out in the yard a little each week (or however often you like), but start out low (kneeling or seiza(sp?), then all fours, etc). There are couple of good techniques for beginning rolls that I have been taught, but I won't even try to explain them in words. Just try not to use your hands at all.

 Also, as technopunk stated, just keep working on them and that they don't have to be perfect to save your butt. Mine are VERY FAR from GREAT rolls, they are OK rolls but more importantly, it has saved my butt from injury already. Recently, I was running while playing paintball and tripped, needless to say I rolled and was back on my feet running before I could even think about rolling. It just happened, I never made a conscious decision to roll and it wasn't until afterwards that I realized that I actually did, my mind was still thinking about the fall.


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## mrhnau (Oct 12, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I had the same problem. years of aikido before Taijutsu. the only pointers (other than practice) are stuff like:
> 
> -Try to bring your body close to the ground before rolling.
> -when practicing, try to roll as quietly as possible.
> ...


The other day we were rolling under a bo, that was interesting. We would roll forward, then roll back. Was a bit depressing, since the other two in the class had the bar held alot lower. However, over time I feel I'll get that low. Interestingly, my back rolls are better than my front rolls. Side rolls have been pretty good so far too. Still, my lower limit will be higher than theirs I assume, since I'm a good bit bigger. The other day in class I noticed my rolls were getting a bit better. Just gotta keep improving!

Intentionally keeping your rolls quiet? Any advice on this, other than just being smooth in transition?

Thanks everyone for the info so far, been insightful!

MrH


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## Kizaru (Oct 12, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> Intentionally keeping your rolls quiet? Any advice on this...


See if there's any difference between rolling "long" and keeping your body small, as opposed to covering a short distance without tucking your limbs into your body.

Train safe.


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## Don Roley (Oct 14, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> I think it's great that you bring that up; the "innate fear". Two of the Japanese shihan here have explained on numerous occassions how using this "innate fear" was one of the founding principles of Ninpo Taijutsu. They've refered to this "innate fear " as the _tachinaori hansha_ or in English, "the righting reflex". The righting reflex overrides all other human reflexes. If you are about to sneeze and suddenly lose your balance, the sneeze will be held off until you regain your balance by either a) coming upright again or b)hitting the floor. Same as if you were to hiccup, burp, vomit, yawn etc etc. This is why off the first move we "take" or "disrupt" (_kuzushi) _our opponent's balance. That moment of "innate fear" or disrupted balance is what creates the space for us to follow up with a lock and finish a strike or throw. Unless the opponent is really accustomed to their own righting reflex, they will have to right themselves before thinking about a counter. We practice _ukemi_ as much as we do so that we can become accustomed to our own righting reflex, and since we're all human, by doing that we're also learning about our opponent's righting reflex as well.
> 
> As far as being able to relax when facing this "innate fear", it almost sounds as if this could be a form of "meditation" itself if seen from a certain perspective. Or it could just be some good, clean, goofy fun...
> 
> ...



What I want to know is why Dale Seago started an entire thread at a site where most of us are not registered, but didn't touch the subject here.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41273


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## Dale Seago (Oct 14, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What I want to know is why Dale Seago started an entire thread at a site where most of us are not registered, but didn't touch the subject here.
> 
> http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=41273



Damn you, Roley, I can't get away with anything with you around. How can I put forth my insidious tendrils to acquire further power and secretly build my Ninja Empire of Ee-vill, when at every turn I find that your spies are watching? Curse you, I say!!!


 :2xBird2:  :mp5:  :2xBird2:


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## Kizaru (Oct 15, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> What I want to know is why Dale Seago started an entire thread at a site where most of us are not registered, but didn't touch the subject here.


I am flattered that Dale Seago thought enough of my post to transplant it into another forum; with a little sunshine and "fertilizer", I hope it will grow.

I have a great deal of respect and admiration for Mr. Seago and the way in which he trains; I would be especially appreciative if he would share his thoughts on my post here or, contact me directly through private message or email.

Gassho.


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## Shogun (Oct 15, 2005)

_



			What I want to know is why Dale Seago started an entire thread at a site where most of us are not registered, but didn't touch the subject here.

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/fo...ead.php?t=41273

Click to expand...

 _

Whoa! (keanu reeves style)

that was really matrix-ish. a link, to a site with a link.....that comes right back here.........amazing


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## mrhnau (Dec 12, 2005)

I talked with my instructor during class about rolling, and he mentioned that dragging your lagging foot sometimes helps stay closer to the ground. Has anyone else heard this or found it to be true? It seemed to work reasonably good for forward rolls. How about back and side rolls?

MrH


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## rutherford (Mar 7, 2006)

Lauren Brandstein has a great article in the latest Muzosa Journal.  It is the second in her series on rolling.

I found these points particularly interesting.  First the negative:

People often give up as soon as hit or thrown, "dead" before hitting the ground
They almost always takes a roll if it is offered, even if it puts them in a vulnerable position
And often do not consider the environment before taking the roll, running into obstacles, damaging themselves

What we should do instead:

Be conscious of your environment and especially your attacker
Be taken down in a way that protects yourself 
Always be planning a counter


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## Joe (Mar 9, 2006)

My recommendation would be to proceed slowly and work on slow flowing rolls. Moving through the rolls slowly, keeping as tight as possible will start your body on THAT muscle memory while reminding your brain to strive for it.

Your aim should always be on doing the best you can in training, and not worrying too much if you always fall a little short.


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## rutherford (Mar 9, 2006)

Yesterday I was having some fun rolling at a wall and stopping myself from hitting it and redirecting off of it.  I decided to practice this because I once noticed a table just as I was coming out of a roll and seemed to just about pull a muscle stopping my momentum.

I think that at some point it's important to practice rolls that go bad.  I certainly get some of this in training, especially when there are lots of students in the room.


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## ManOfVirtues (May 1, 2006)

I would agree, we are running out of dry wall to hold the patching tape and mud together.


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