# Martial arts testing and society today



## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2017)

So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.

Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.

But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today. In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.

To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on. 

It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.

It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.

None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.

I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more. 

Sorry for the random rambles but it's something I've been thinking about and I wanted to write it down


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## mber (Aug 4, 2017)

I think, for any instructor, a lot depends on your available audience. 
If you got into teaching because you love the art and love working with people, then yeah, for sure you're going to try your hardest to maintain the quality and rigor that you have passion for. 
But you're also a businessman (or woman), relying on the whims of the public to feed your family. 
What's a sensei or kyosa to do?


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## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2017)

mber said:


> I think, for any instructor, a lot depends on your available audience.
> If you got into teaching because you love the art and love working with people, then yeah, for sure you're going to try your hardest to maintain the quality and rigor that you have passion for.
> But you're also a businessman (or woman), relying on the whims of the public to feed your family.
> What's a sensei or kyosa to do?


That's why I always prefer trainers who aren't full time trainers and don't rely on the school for their money.


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2017)

Can you point me to a link to any organized sport league for a child over 8 that doesn't keep score or time races?  I've seen things like this for kindergarteners but, like most things, I think its grossly exaggerated.


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## Headhunter (Aug 4, 2017)

Steve said:


> Can you point me to a link to any organized sport league for a child over 8 that doesn't keep score or time races?  I've seen things like this for kindergarteners but, like most things, I think its grossly exaggerated.


Oh yeah sure hang on let me just pull up all these details about school events....no of course I can't but my daughter is a teaching assistant at a primary school and they do have these things


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## jobo (Aug 4, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.
> 
> Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.
> 
> ...


there are more important thing at stake, than if I kid deserves a belt or not, effort should be rewarded in children not that they reach an elite level, some children can do that with no effort at all. Otherwise you are teaching them that no matter how hard they try they are still not good enough.

it matters nothing in the other thread, if the ops kid is given a belt they haven't reached the standard for, it matters a great deal if they feel a failure for not getting one after trying their best


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Oh yeah sure hang on let me just pull up all these details about school events....no of course I can't but my daughter is a teaching assistant at a primary school and they do have these things


Lol.  This is a pillar of your argument.   If you can't support that these kinds of sports leagues are common, your entire position is flawed.


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> there are more important thing at stake, than if I kid deserves a belt or not, effort should be rewarded in children not that they reach an elite level, some children can do that with no effort at all. Otherwise you are teaching them that no matter how hard they try they are still not good enough.
> 
> it matters nothing in the other thread, if the ops kid is given a belt they haven't reached the standard for, it matters a great deal if they feel a failure for not getting one after trying their best


This is actually a very good point.  Cultivating resilience in kids is extremely important.   often, the kids for whom most things come easy are the ones who give up when they don't.


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## Hyoho (Aug 4, 2017)

I have seen a group formed that follewed Japanese arts with strict intentions of "not" doing gradings and wanting to follow a path along classical lines. Strict allegiance to one particular sensei in Japan. Many more new members joined and were soon asking about gradings. Seniors were then asking what they should do? I was suggested they just do grades within the group. So to an extent everything did digress a little ina democratic manner to encourage new people.

What really needs to be considered is 'What is a grading'?

It should be an ackowledgement of how far you have managed to succeed in what you do and no more. It requires a lot of humility. 

In actual fact some Japanese Renmei have now cut out higher grades completely. For example who is to acknowledge a Kyudan? A panel of Hachidan? It has not worked in the past and has caused consternation. And most amusing of all is the people that have refused to be acknowledged above their fellow practitioners have recieved the most respect!  When we step out on to the dojo floor all can see who is the best without waving a piece of paper around.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> Lol.  This is a pillar of your argument.   If you can't support that these kinds of sports leagues are common, your entire position is flawed.


I dont agree that this is the pillar of his argument. But rather an example.  The example could be right or wrong in fact but there is a common belief that this happens.
This one example should not be the focus of the debate.  It is true that the entire American culture is in a debate over equality.  Equal rights for every group from skin color to LGBT, rich and poor.  Every single group is fighting for equality but it's the _type of equality _that makes a big difference.  All of these groups and social justice warriors are looking for equally of outcome!!!! The conventional view has always been equality of opportunity. There is a huge difference between the two and the political powers are trying to do a slight of hand change in meaning to get their way.  To the OP post, if someone was a Republican in a democratic landscape this is all very apparent.


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## jobo (Aug 5, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I dont agree that this is the pillar of his argument. But rather an example.  The example could be right or wrong in fact but there is a common belief that this happens.
> This one example should not be the focus of the debate.  It is true that the entire American culture is in a debate over equality.  Equal rights for every group from skin color to LGBT, rich and poor.  Every single group is fighting for equality but it's the _type of equality _that makes a big difference.  All of these groups and social justice warriors are looking for equally of outcome!!!! The conventional view has always been equality of opportunity. There is a huge difference between the two and the political powers are trying to do a slight of hand change in meaning to get their way.  To the OP post, if someone was a Republican in a democratic landscape this is all very apparent.


the only way you can tell if two groups had equality of opportunity, is to view the equality of the outcomes


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## RTKDCMB (Aug 5, 2017)

People often say things like 'it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you have fun playing'. 

People generally have more fun when they win.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> the only way you can tell if two groups had equality of opportunity, is to view the equality of the outcomes


That is the single dumbest thing I ever heard.  But to reply to it would send us down a rabbit hole of politics and that is against  the rules to discuss here on MT so I will leave it alone.


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## jobo (Aug 5, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> That is the single dumbest thing I ever heard.  But to reply to it would send us down a rabbit hole of politics and that is against  the rules to discuss here on MT so I will leave it alone.


its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.

for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes


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## DaveB (Aug 5, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.
> 
> Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.
> 
> ...



Assuming this deemphasis of winning and losing is happening, what evidence have you that it promotes a sense of entitlement?

This is something that sounds right but has absolutely zero basis in anything. 

It is a position that is espoused for no other reason than to normalise inequality by making people who want equality seem like cry babies.
I'm not saying that this is your reason, but it is why pundits and journalists started spouting it and since then every old fart who sees that the next generation is doing things differently (and therefore badly; a tale as old as time) has picked up the cry. 

Some kids stomach losing and it's fine. Some kids get very depressed and never want to do that thing again. And because people are different and have different lives and different parents no pop answer about "well their parents should.." is going to work for everyone. 

So which child should we emotionally injure so that the winner's victory is more meaningful? Yours?

I have a young son with autism and negative experiences roll around his mind over and over for weeks. So when sports day was about having fun rather than winning I was over the moon. But do you really think that stopped him noticing when he came last or when he came first??? Of course it didn't. Winners crowed and losers wept just the same. All the participation awards meant was that the kids had a souvenir and something their patents could make a fuss over.

Competition and disappointment can and will come later. We still have football league's, athletics competitions, art competitions creative writing contests, Olympic games etc etc. Nobody has taken away competition from the world.

Winning and losing is ingrained into our culture even though it's been shown that humans find cooperative games far more rewarding than competitive ones. The fact we commonly believe otherwise is testament only to how much we allow psychopaths to shape society.

Entitlement is not shaped by participation awards. It is shaped by genes and parenting, just like everything else. 

And entitlement is one of society's most celebrated traits so long as we judge the person deserving. This very argument is one if entitlement: "I'm entitled to my pedestal as the winner, your participation awards deminish my achievement". 

To those who hold such views I say, your not entitled to anything. Let winning be it's own reward and learn that in the real world hard work does not always get you a step beyond your peers.

As to the martial arts and belt awards. 

All the hype about what rank means is crap that people invented to boistbtheir own ego's.

Belts were introduced with one purpose, to help people focus on a small goal in the course of a long term training program. Later it helped make teaching easier. That's it.

Now again going back to highly emotional and chaotic young kids being put into a testing environment when their teacher is solely responsible for their ability at that stage...

Failure should not be an option. 

Why are you testing them if they are not ready? Your class assessment should have weeded out those not yet able long before the grading. If you know they can do but aren't performing on the day, that's a pretty arbitrary measure for a lifetime pursuit. 

When you have older kids and adults whose time and thus whose training are their own affair then you can start testing and withholding belts, but with young kids it's on the teacher and no one else.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.
> 
> for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes



 since you wouldnt listen to me anyway... here is your philosophy.  i hightly advise watching the entire length of all clips









3:25 second clip
_"the number one predictor of achievement in western society is intelligence,, the number two predictor is conscientiousness.  ....so who gets ahead , smart people who work hard"
Jordan Peterson





_
7:03 min 
"_correlation does not imply causation"_
to push the concept of equality of outcome cancels out the possibility of free will and free choice.


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## DaveB (Aug 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.
> 
> for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes



This is only true if we are all equally able. If we are not and some are not and say black people are inherently less able then we can't expect equal outcomes. 

So now you see the insidious Nazi-esq thinking that this wave of normalised right wing thinking comes from.

Some groups are just better than others so of course those better folks are at the top despite the equality of opportunity we so obviously have.

And if some folks just aren't as good how does it help us let them in the country. Or if they are here already we shouldn't have to give them jobs or respect their backwards wishes. Rather controlling them is the best way to keep the "good" people safe...

Not calling anyone out as anything, but these ideas have filtered into the mainstream through pundits and right wing groups who know full well what origins they have and what conclusions they lead to. Most who think they are a good idea don't know.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.
> 
> Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.
> 
> ...


We have an epidemic of people who lack real self-confidence, because they were taught it's easy to win. Their confidence is thin, and easily damaged. Real self-confidence doesn't crumble with failure, and doesn't need constant reinforcement for participation. The "everyone gets a medal" is a bastardization of the concept of rewarding people for effort, rather than just result (which is actually sound advice, because it teaches them that failing is okay). But if someone isn't putting in any real effort, rewarding them isn't helpful or supportive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

mber said:


> I think, for any instructor, a lot depends on your available audience.
> If you got into teaching because you love the art and love working with people, then yeah, for sure you're going to try your hardest to maintain the quality and rigor that you have passion for.
> But you're also a businessman (or woman), relying on the whims of the public to feed your family.
> What's a sensei or kyosa to do?


I've heard it said before that this is a necessity for commercial dojos. I don't think that's true. Sure, you have to take the audience into account, but there are commercial dojos doing okay (not paying 6-figure incomes, but paying an income to the instructor(s)) who have reasonable standards. In fact, the softest dojos I know are actually shrinking.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> there are more important thing at stake, than if I kid deserves a belt or not, effort should be rewarded in children not that they reach an elite level, some children can do that with no effort at all. Otherwise you are teaching them that no matter how hard they try they are still not good enough.
> 
> it matters nothing in the other thread, if the ops kid is given a belt they haven't reached the standard for, it matters a great deal if they feel a failure for not getting one after trying their best


This. Both parts of it.

First, we have to see that there are two things we should be rewarding: effort and results. If someone gets results with no effort, IMO, they should be pushed harder. I'll hold a superstar to a higher standard, because they thrive under that pressure and wilt without it. I won't lower the standards appreciably for someone who can't reach them, but I'll find other ways to ensure they are rewarded/recognized for their effort, and to help them see they aren't failing - they're just not reaching that required standard.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> This is actually a very good point.  Cultivating resilience in kids is extremely important.   often, the kids for whom most things come easy are the ones who give up when they don't.


Very true. Especially if they are praised/recognized for it being easy (when smart kids are praised for being smart, for instance).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

RTKDCMB said:


> People often say things like 'it doesn't matter if you win or lose as long as you have fun playing'.
> 
> People generally have more fun when they win.


It depends on the situation, to some extent. There are times when it's just fun to play, and keeping score is just part of the fun. When I played soccer growing up, if the other team didn't have enough kids to play and had to forfeit, I'd volunteer to play on their team so we could play an unofficial game (technical forfeit still stood), instead of not playing at all.

The problem is that some folks seem to have decided that competition takes the fun out of the game and damages the psyche of the losing team members. I lost a lot of games growing up. My coaches' and parents' attitudes toward them taught me to deal with loss with equanimity.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

jobo said:


> its not politics, its philosophy , and in keeping with the op.
> 
> for instance, if most of the highest paid jobs are held by white privately educated males, its reasonably clear that there isn't equality of opportunity. Otherwise they would be more equally spread across gender social back ground and ethnic origin. This is self evidently true, there no other way to measure it than out comes


That's not in line with your original statement that you can tell the equality of opportunity by the equality of outcome. If that were true, the guy starting in the worse position would always lose.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> "the number one predictor of achievement in western society is intelligence,, the number two predictor is conscientiousness. ....so who gets ahead , smart people who work hard"
> Jordan Peterson


That's demonstrably untrue. Intelligence has never been a very good predictor of success.


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## DaveB (Aug 5, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> since you wouldnt listen to me anyway... here is your philosophy.  i hightly advise watching the entire length of all clips
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok clip 1. Totally false. Only psychopaths work to be better than others. The whole premise is a complete misdirection because having equality of outcome among groups is not the same as equal distribution of resources. But even if it was his argument has been disprove over and over. Look up the zietgeist movement and some of their videos cite the studies as well as detailing the many flaws with this bs argument.

Clip 2: More spurious premises. Who are these people who want equal distribution of resources? 

So if not everyone can be a neurosurgeon but society needs people at all levels why should those at the bottom not be able to survive on what they earn? Since you can admit we can't all be the best in your hierarchical structure how do you justify the confluence of forces that keep people pinned in a position that they won't excel at or earn enough to fully participate in society or better themselves???

Ultimately this guy is a typical right wing pundit, arguing against a caricature of the opposing view, throwing up straw man after straw man to spout them good ol' common sense wisdoms, that are as often b.s. as truth.

I might check out 3 later, but I anticipate more of the same.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 5, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Look up the zietgeist movement and some of their videos cite the studies as well as detailing the many flaws with this bs argument.


I did a quick look at it on Wikipedia and I Google it. All I could find out is they want to deconstruct the current money economic system and gather all our resouces from outer space and they believe in a global economy and utopian society.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 5, 2017)

Sorry guys if I offended anyone.  I can't really have these conversations here. It really makes me angry and frustrated.  I am not political. I hate all politicians equally.  I am super rational and logical. I don't buy into anything anyone says I always have to make my own conclusions.  I am also very open to 180 degree change of thought if the evidence shows me otherwise.  When ever I get into these discussions it seems the other person does nothing more than throw out retoric and regurgitate media snippets.  It is really frustrating. I really enjoy MT  but for the sake of my own sanity I can't debate topics like this. We all have different views and no one is gonna convince anyone to change their mind here on a forum. I started to get sucked into it, I'm sorry, but I'm going to go do some kata, clear my head , enjoy my day and see yall in another thread.


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## DaveB (Aug 5, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I did a quick look at it on Wikipedia and I Google it. All I could find out is they want to deconstruct the current money economic system and gather all our resouces from outer space and they believe in a global economy and utopian society.


Yup that's them.

The studies they vote in support of their ideas are worth looking at. Outside of that I don't support or endorse nor denigrate this group.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> We have an epidemic of people who lack real self-confidence, because they were taught it's easy to win. Their confidence is thin, and easily damaged. Real self-confidence doesn't crumble with failure, and doesn't need constant reinforcement for participation. The "everyone gets a medal" is a bastardization of the concept of rewarding people for effort, rather than just result (which is actually sound advice, because it teaches them that failing is okay). But if someone isn't putting in any real effort, rewarding them isn't helpful or supportive.


agreed.  we see this in some posters on this forum.  But whether the lack of resilience is due to peewee sports is debatable.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This. Both parts of it.
> 
> First, we have to see that there are two things we should be rewarding: effort and results. If someone gets results with no effort, IMO, they should be pushed harder. I'll hold a superstar to a higher standard, because they thrive under that pressure and wilt without it. I won't lower the standards appreciably for someone who can't reach them, but I'll find other ways to ensure they are rewarded/recognized for their effort, and to help them see they aren't failing - they're just not reaching that required standard.


That's the inherent problem with youth martial arts that are not sports.  The non sport schools teach kids respect and discipline.  And as you note above, these are ancillary traits that result from effort and results.


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## DaveB (Aug 5, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> Sorry guys if I offended anyone.  I can't really have these conversations here. It really makes me angry and frustrated.  I am not political. I hate all politicians equally.  I am super rational and logical. I don't buy into anything anyone says I always have to make my own conclusions.  I am also very open to 180 degree change of thought if the evidence shows me otherwise.  When ever I get into these discussions it seems the other person does nothing more than throw out retoric and regurgitate media snippets.  It is really frustrating. I really enjoy MT  but for the sake of my own sanity I can't debate topics like this. We all have different views and no one is gonna convince anyone to change their mind here on a forum. I started to get sucked into it, I'm sorry, but I'm going to go do some kata, clear my head , enjoy my day and see yall in another thread.



That's a shame but we'll done for avoiding an unpleasant place.

I would describe myself exactly as you did yourself, but on the other side of the spectrum from the media snippets of the rhetoric spouter you posted. Discussion would have been interesting.


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## DaveB (Aug 5, 2017)

Gpseymour what did you disagree with?


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## CB Jones (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's demonstrably untrue. Intelligence has never been a very good predictor of success.



Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?

I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?
> 
> I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.


What about the lazy smart guy or the hard working guy who isn't smart?


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2017)

It is definitely not the attitude we have in our gym. 

"Excuses are a way for people to hide from their own insecurities. If you never put 100% in then you always have an excuse for failure.

It's better to try and fail then never to have tried at all.

Courage is putting in everything you have falling short then finding the determination to pick yourself up and claw, fight and drag yourself forward that's how you become a better version of yourself.

Through adversity can you find the kinda person you truly are and what your capable of. Happy Sunday"

Anton Zafir.


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> What about the lazy smart guy or the hard working guy who isn't smart?



Or the guy who uses daddys money. Or just won the lottery.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> agreed.  we see this in some posters on this forum.  But whether the lack of resilience is due to peewee sports is debatable.


Peewee sports I know nothing about. But this has been happening in some schools and some sports events (I don't know about leagues). And some of the advice that came out in pop-psych a generation ago led to some parents using this approach, too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> That's the inherent problem with youth martial arts that are not sports.  The non sport schools teach kids respect and discipline.  And as you note above, these are ancillary traits that result from effort and results.


I don't really see it as a problem for non-sports MA. Testing allows instructors to reward for results, and there are numerous ways to recognize effort.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Gpseymour what did you disagree with?


The tone and content of the post.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?
> 
> I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.


Depending how conscientiousness is defined, it may be a good predictor. The ability to continue in spite of hardship (perseverance) has proven to be a more accurate predictor, as has what Daniel Goleman termed "emotional intelligence". There are plenty of intelligent people who fail to meet their potential, and plenty of successful people (easy to find in business) who are of average intelligence.


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## CB Jones (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> What about the lazy smart guy or the hard working guy who isn't smart?



I think typically a smart hard worker guys will have higher percentage of success than the lazy smart guys or the hardworking dumb guy.


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## Steve (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Peewee sports I know nothing about. But this has been happening in some schools and some sports events (I don't know about leagues). And some of the advice that came out in pop-psych a generation ago led to some parents using this approach, too.


Sure.  The point is that I agree that resilience iis lacking in some young adults but I'm not convinced its because they received participation ribbons.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I think typically a smart hard worker guys will have higher percentage of success than the lazy smart guys or the hardworking dumb guy.


Yes, if you combine them, they will. Unless they have lousy emotional intelligence (which, admittedly, overlaps a bit with "hard working" in the self-management area).


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Peewee sports I know nothing about. But this has been happening in some schools and some sports events (I don't know about leagues). And some of the advice that came out in pop-psych a generation ago led to some parents using this approach, too.



The premis of the OP is a very right wing rant about the problems of society. We get a nut job called Pauline Hanson do this bang on all the time. Just makes stuff like this up.

So it might be happening. It might not. But just because people are complaining about it. Does not necessarily mean it is a real thing.

Actually lets move it off modern politics and go to a quote from socrates.(Or mabye not)


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sure.  The point is that I agree that resilience iis lacking in some young adults but I'm not convinced its because they received participation ribbons.


One participation ribbon won't do it. But if they continually are rewarded for just whatever they do, it devalues (to them) any rewards for actual effort and accomplishment. The net result is nearly the same as not rewarding any of it.


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## CB Jones (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sure.  The point is that I agree that resilience iis lacking in some young adults but I'm not convinced its because they received participation ribbons.



I think today's society sometimes fails to teach certain lessons due to being afraid of feelings.

We don't require as much work for reward and we impart a feeling of entitlement.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The premis of the OP is a very right wing rant about the problems of society. We get a nut job cqlled Pauline Hanson do this bang on all the time. Just makes stuff like this up.
> 
> So it might be happening. It might not. But just because people are complaining about it. Does not necessarily mean it is a real thing.
> 
> Actually lets move it off modern politics and go to a quote from socrates.(Or mabye not)


"Kids these days" is definitely part of the problem - meaning part of what we (us, the non-kids) see is just our perception. But there is evidence in psychological research to support the premise that there's a larger problem in this area than in the past.


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## drop bear (Aug 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Kids these days" is definitely part of the problem - meaning part of what we (us, the non-kids) see is just our perception. But there is evidence in psychological research to support the premise that there's a larger problem in this area than in the past.



If there is actual evidence then there is actual evidence.

By the way what martial art did Socrates endorce?


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## tubby (Aug 5, 2017)

Steve said:


> Can you point me to a link to any organized sport league for a child over 8 that doesn't keep score or time races?  I've seen things like this for kindergarteners but, like most things, I think its grossly exaggerated.



i coach junior aussie rules and they dont keep score until under 11s. but even the under 5s know who won even though they cant add the scores up. we've  had cases where older kids leagues refuse to record blowout  scores. the kids know who got flogged, the paperwork doesnt change that at all.

they still get a good lesson in hard work though whatever the rule on scores. the rules work in this game to share the ball but the kids who work hard still  get it more. and because nothing  has the opportunity to make you look silly like trying to catch a bouncing oval ball they learn that things dont go your say even if you do everything  right. but keep trying and it will go your way more than if it doesnt.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It is definitely not the attitude we have in our gym.
> 
> "Excuses are a way for people to hide from their own insecurities. If you never put 100% in then you always have an excuse for failure.
> 
> ...




By the way. Anton is a school teacher. So I will leave it up to you to guess how many participation ribbons get handed out.


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## Hyoho (Aug 5, 2017)

I really had no idea how far this belt system in the West had drifted away from the original concept. The concept of Budo is a "community activity". To leave your politics, religion whatever outside the door and practice as a group. Belt are NOT an award. they are a mark of what level you have managed to acheive. In so saying you look at the acheivment people have made not what they cant do. If they dont get it? Its simple. They try again until they do.


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## jks9199 (Aug 5, 2017)

Folks,
Some of this discussion is trending towards political/sociopolitical stuff.  Keep it to the martial arts, or even sports, ok?

jks9199
Administrator


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## Jenna (Aug 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If there is actual evidence then there is actual evidence.
> 
> By the way what martial art did Socrates endorce?


It was not Socrates say, I know that I know nothing? So see? You cannot trust that guy  Plus he was not smarter than poison so


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The tone and content of the post.


But clearly nothing you can concretely argue with. Fair enough.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Then what is a better predictor than intelligence and conscientiousness?
> 
> I'm putting my money on the hardworking smart guy over the lazy dumbarse...everytime.


Donald Trump.

George w Bush.

Cara Delevigne.

The entire British government.

Who you know and the home you were born into are huge predictors of success.

The intelligence thing falls down at societies top level. A caveat often forgotten when quoted by the political right.


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Peewee sports I know nothing about. But this has been happening in some schools and some sports events (I don't know about leagues). And some of the advice that came out in pop-psych a generation ago led to some parents using this approach, too.



What about when the advice was by peer reviewed psychologists and said the same things?


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The premis of the OP is a very right wing rant about the problems of society. We get a nut job called Pauline Hanson do this bang on all the time. Just makes stuff like this up.
> 
> So it might be happening. It might not. But just because people are complaining about it. Does not necessarily mean it is a real thing.
> 
> Actually lets move it off modern politics and go to a quote from socrates.(Or mabye not)


As I said in my post, it is a tale as old as time. Old ways good, new ways bad.


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> One participation ribbon won't do it. But if they continually are rewarded for just whatever they do, it devalues (to them) any rewards for actual effort and accomplishment. The net result is nearly the same as not rewarding any of it.


But who is doing that???

Where are these morons rewarding a lack of effort at every step in a child's life??? 

We only ever see snippets; snapshots of a life yet we think we know it all. 
One school sports day or karate grading is not the sum total of a grown adults emotional and social education. 

What you do with a 5 year old or 7 year old is not what happens with a 10 yr old or 13 yr old. How the parents build on those experiences and the lessons they teach their children are much much more important than whether a child, who can see full well that he's lost the race, gets a participation award.

The whole premise of this thread is baloney and this is why (besides the fact that parenting matters . The hard austere beat your kids into shape with repeated minor emotional trauma philosophy happened. And it produced a generation of parents who according to you are self entitled and who dont think their kids should have to work for anything. They have rejected it in favour of softer more emotionally friendly methods.

We're it the self evidently superior way it would have produced parents who had no interest in ensuring rewards that weren't earned and perpetuated it's self to the next generation and been reinforced by the advances in behavioural science and child psychology. 

Yet that's not what happened.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I think today's society sometimes fails to teach certain lessons due to being afraid of feelings.
> 
> We don't require as much work for reward and we impart a feeling of entitlement.


Which lessons???
What rewards require less work?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But clearly nothing you can concretely argue with. Fair enough.


Nothing I felt necessary to argue with. Your statement makes an assumption without evidence.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> What about when the advice was by peer reviewed psychologists and said the same things?


I'd have to look for that. I'm not aware of such conclusions stated in psychological research, though that may simply be because I didn't get to any of the research papers that included such conclusions. Psychology is, always has been, and likely always will be a fuzzy science. There are too many variables involved to properly control them and get proper conclusions, and too many ethical issues with some of the studies that would be needed to improve upon that. That leads to a series of less-incorrect conclusions and less-misleading theories, so I wouldn't be surprised to find there were some studies that initially supported the idea of rewarding participation. More likely, however, the results were overgeneralized and misapplied in the expression to the general population (the biggest problem with most pop-science articles), leading to unsupported conclusions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But who is doing that???
> 
> Where are these morons rewarding a lack of effort at every step in a child's life???
> 
> ...


You're actually saying the same thing I did, Dave, with only one difference I can perceive. You're making the assumption that the parents are not part of the problem. In many cases - observable in public places - they are. So, if a series of teachers (doesn't take many - just a few in a row), some activity leaders, and the parents all fail to let them experience failure, reward them for any level of participation, etc., then that may be enough to dilute the effect of more useful reward systems. It doesn't have to be universal. And it is harder to fix once the child has begun to build a paradigm based on those rewards, so what happens at 10 may not be as important as what happens at 6.

EDIT: Oh, and the "hard austere" bit serves as a strawman here. Nobody suggested that model.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You're actually saying the same thing I did, Dave, with only one difference I can perceive. You're making the assumption that the parents are not part of the problem. In many cases - observable in public places - they are. So, if a series of teachers (doesn't take many - just a few in a row), some activity leaders, and the parents all fail to let them experience failure, reward them for any level of participation, etc., then that may be enough to dilute the effect of more useful reward systems. It doesn't have to be universal. And it is harder to fix once the child has begun to build a paradigm based on those rewards, so what happens at 10 may not be as important as what happens at 6.
> 
> EDIT: Oh, and the "hard austere" bit serves as a strawman here. Nobody suggested that model.



Straw man is a bit strong. An exagerated description, sure. But however you describe the previous model, it's certainly implied in the OP  that this is a modern problem not had in the good old days. And so the point still stands: whatever was done in the good old days is what produced these entitled parents who mislead their kids by not letting them get hurt through losing and demand rewards without effort.

And you may not like my connecting these attitudes to the creeping rot of nazi-ism on the right, but no sooner had I posted than Hoshin put up videos all but confirming it with a right wing speaker telling us why it was completely natural for women not to get equal pay and rolling right into intelligence decides our place in the world; which if you follow these discussions enough you will see leads into - different races have different intelligence so have different places in society... America destroyed the Nazi's but failed to weed out the corruption that lets their ideas flourish.

As to the other stuff, I feel that positions like this one about participation awards thrive on the vagueness and undefined nature of the discussion. That's one of the reasons I brought in my own experience, because it's easy to shake your fist at a shadowy bogeyman and blame him for everything. But shine a torch on him you'll see it's just an old tree in shadow and the stuff you thought was going wrong isn't. Or at least its not because of the tree.

Part of why my position might be more unique on this is that I'm from a colonial minority background. My parents generation believed very much in hard work, in fact we were told we needed to work twice as hard to be thought half as good. Feelings we're things to be kept in check and the cultural hang ups of being an immigrant were many.

But my generation are realising that much of what we took as culture were simply the survival tools of oppressed people. So we look to those in more privileged lives and see that actually a sense of entitlement is intrinsic to them. It stops them accepting second best in life. Allows them to take risks that most poor people would not dare because success is an expectation not a hope. And while we can't replicate the nepotism and networks that boost the wealthy along we can teach our kids not to fear. Not to be overwhelmed by the need to work twice as hard because you are already better than the competition (what can i say, my son is awesome) and you need only work hard enough to show it. That success is a function of determination and that coming last in every race is not a reason to quit, because look: you got something out of it afterall.


----------



## Steve (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Kids these days" is definitely part of the problem - meaning part of what we (us, the non-kids) see is just our perception. But there is evidence in psychological research to support the premise that there's a larger problem in this area than in the past.


Well, for what it's worth, I see a lack of resikience in a lot of millennials, but they're all adults now.   Kids these days seem to be course correcting.

And I'm still not convinced that participation ribbons are the root cause.


----------



## jobo (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Straw man is a bit strong. An exagerated description, sure. But however you describe the previous model, it's certainly implied in the OP  that this is a modern problem not had in the good old days. And so the point still stands: whatever was done in the good old days is what produced these entitled parents who mislead their kids by not letting them get hurt through losing and demand rewards without effort.
> 
> And you may not like my connecting these attitudes to the creeping rot of nazi-ism on the right, but no sooner had I posted than Hoshin put up videos all but confirming it with a right wing speaker telling us why it was completely natural for women not to get equal pay and rolling right into intelligence decides our place in the world; which if you follow these discussions enough you will see leads into - different races have different intelligence so have different places in society... America destroyed the Nazi's but failed to weed out the corruption that lets their ideas flourish.
> 
> ...


that's an excellent post Dave, I agree with every last word


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Donald Trump.
> 
> George w Bush.
> 
> ...



All of which are intelligent people claiming otherwise is just ridiculous and is just your showing bias against them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Straw man is a bit strong. An exagerated description, sure. But however you describe the previous model, it's certainly implied in the OP  that this is a modern problem not had in the good old days. And so the point still stands: whatever was done in the good old days is what produced these entitled parents who mislead their kids by not letting them get hurt through losing and demand rewards without effort.
> 
> And you may not like my connecting these attitudes to the creeping rot of nazi-ism on the right, but no sooner had I posted than Hoshin put up videos all but confirming it with a right wing speaker telling us why it was completely natural for women not to get equal pay and rolling right into intelligence decides our place in the world; which if you follow these discussions enough you will see leads into - different races have different intelligence so have different places in society... America destroyed the Nazi's but failed to weed out the corruption that lets their ideas flourish.
> 
> ...


An exaggeration of an opposing argument to make it easier to argue against is precisely what a strawman is. If you seriously think all privileged people actually refuse to accept second-best in life, you're applying a very aggressive stereotype to that group of people. I grew up around people who were far more privileged (and wealthy, in some cases) than me, and many (not all) of their parents required they work hard and they didn't always get the very best stuff, because it wasn't always necessary.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

Steve said:


> Well, for what it's worth, I see a lack of resikience in a lot of millennials, but they're all adults now.   Kids these days seem to be course correcting.


Agreed. "Kids" are much older than they were when I was 20. (EDIT FOR CLARITY: Millenials are the group usually referenced in studies of this.)



> And I'm still not convinced that participation ribbons are the root cause.


I'd say they're a symptom of the root cause, and contributors, not the root cause, itself. It goes much deeper than just that.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> An exaggeration of an opposing argument to make it easier to argue against is precisely what a strawman is. If you seriously think all privileged people actually refuse to accept second-best in life, you're applying a very aggressive stereotype to that group of people. I grew up around people who were far more privileged (and wealthy, in some cases) than me, and many (not all) of their parents required they work hard and they didn't always get the very best stuff, because it wasn't always necessary.


Then what you write here about my post is equally a straw man.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> All of which are intelligent people claiming otherwise is just ridiculous and is just your showing bias against them.


Sigh.

It was intelligence that got trump elected?
The man can barely string a sentence together. That has nothing to do with bias, there are studies on it.

Anyway their intelligence is beside the point. Their careers were all about the families they were born into and claiming otherwise is equally ridiculous. 

Being coached through every test by private tutors and as is the case with British gov, being handed places in top universities because you went to the right school, or as with GW Bush, getting to Harvard because your dad went, will do wonders for your perceived intellect.


----------



## CB Jones (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Sigh.
> 
> It was intelligence that got trump elected?
> The man can barely string a sentence together. That has nothing to do with bias, there are studies on it.
> ...



We will agree to disagree then and leave it at that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Then what you write here about my post is equally a straw man.


What I referred to was a statement you actually made, as I read it - no exaggeration intended. If the meaning I took wasn't what you meant, then we've had a miscommunication.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> we were told we needed to work twice as hard to be thought half as good. Feelings we're things to be kept in check and the cultural hang ups of being an immigrant were many.



I remember being told that by our female officer when I joined the RAf, she said as women we had to work harder just to be thought ok.



CB Jones said:


> just your showing bias against them.



There is a huge bias against the government here. if we had proportional representation they wouldn't be in government.



gpseymour said:


> I grew up around people who were far more privileged (and wealthy, in some cases) than me, and many (not all) of their parents required they work hard and they didn't always get the very best stuff, because it wasn't always necessary.



I think your privileged are a bit different from ours though, we have many who have been privileged for centuries and have amassed wealth, power and influence that is worldwide. If ever there really was a secret world society that controls everything it most likely would be the Etonian Old boys network, monarchs, political leaders, high ranking military, churchmen, philosophers,  professors, bankers you name it there will be an Old Etonian at the top somewhere. Our Public Schools (you pay to go and it's horribly expensive) are very exclusive and have the ethos that they are born to rule and control the world, they train the pupils to be leaders. The first Public schools date from the 5th century, Eton came along in the 15th. Privilege in the UK even today doesn't mean to be rich as much as to be titled and to have influence. The Beckhams are rich but they will always be working class, the titled Lady who lives up by me in a big castle is actually quite poor but she's not just upper class but also privileged because she is aristocracy. She doesn't have to deal with a lot of problems other less well off people have to deal with because she's titled. She also has influence because she's a member of the House of Lords.  We have families here in the UK that haven't worked for centuries.
While the UK doesn't have such a class divide as it used to, it is still there and it's very different from any class separation in the US. Privilege here isn't so much about wealth but very much about power and influence.


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What I referred to was a statement you actually made, as I read it - no exaggeration intended. If the meaning I took wasn't what you meant, then we've had a miscommunication.


You didn't read the word all in my post, so yes, exaggeration.


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## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> We will agree to disagree then and leave it at that.


Agree that your comment on intelligence was completely beside the point? Sure.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> All of which are intelligent people claiming otherwise is just ridiculous and is just your showing bias against them.


Now I've heard it all when someone calls donald trump an intelligent individual...he's so smart he went bankrupt a few million times lol


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 6, 2017)

Well this threads totally derailed it's become a row over American politics which I no pretty much 0 about apart from what I see on the news about what stupid stuff donald trump says on twitter


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## CB Jones (Aug 6, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Now I've heard it all when someone calls donald trump an intelligent individual...he's so smart he went bankrupt a few million times lol



Look I don't like Trump either but to pretend he isn't intelligent is plain silly.

If you don't like his opinions or politics or antics that is fine but the fact is he is still intelligent.


----------



## jobo (Aug 6, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Now I've heard it all when someone calls donald trump an intelligent individual...he's so smart he went bankrupt a few million times lol


he went bankrupt so he didn't have to pay back the money he owed, there nothing stupid about that,

he has an IQ of 160 I believe,that's quite high, ln case you didn't know


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 6, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Look I don't like Trump either but to pretend he isn't intelligent is plain silly.
> 
> If you don't like his opinions or politics or antics that is fine but the fact is he is still intelligent.


Haha no he's a total idiot who doesn't have a clue about anything...all I can say is if I was American I'd be out of there quick


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> You didn't read the word all in my post, so yes, exaggeration.


I also didn't read the word "some". If I say, "Cars have only 3 wheels", that implicitly refers to all cars - and is therefore incorrect. If I say, "Some cars only have 3 wheels", that is accurate.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Some cars only have 3 wheels", that is accurate.



Did you have them in the US? Messerschmitts, Bubble cars and of course the Robin Reliant! Made famous by 'Only Fools and Horses', if you haven't watch that see if you can hunt the box set down.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> ...
> 
> But I don't put that blame on martial art teachers. It's the way society is today.


If you invoke "society today" you are invoking political viewpoints.



> In schools now we have non competitive sports days where everyone's a winner or cross county races where no one gets timed and everyone gets a medal. People are to afraid to tell a kid they lost. They think it'll upset a kid if they lose and it'll damage their self confidence.
> 
> To me that's nonsense. You win or you lose it's as simple as that. A kid loses a running race oh well suck it up life goes on.



Not all kids are the same, many do have their confidence crushed and drop out of things they might otherwise be good at.
Each child learns to manage defeat and disappointment at different rates so there's no way to know if your feeding into their issues or having no effect at all.

As I and others pointed out, winners and losers aren't diminished based on who gets a certificate. The kids still know how they did and feel suitably elated or deflated as a result.

Look at it this way. 20 kids run a race.
1 kid wins and learns that effort gets you a reward and that he/she is awesome.
2 runner ups learn that hard work gets them a reward and either they are nearly awesome but just not talented enough to win.

Now, 17 other children learn that they suck.

You see young kids in a race always put max effort because they don't know how not to. They also don't yet know that they can get better at things, so if they win they are winners and if not they are losers until they are taught otherwise.

  But what they don't learn is that putting effort in is waste of time because they lost anyway. [/QUOTE]



> It makes the kids think they deserve a reward for doing nothing basically. Why bother putting in the effort when you can just the bare minimum and get the same reward as the guy who won and put 100% In.


Not true, for reasons already discussed.


> It's the same in martial arts now. Parents want their kids to think they're great and if they fail they'll leave so instructors will give them the belts so they stay and their confidence stays high.



What you're describing is the failure of the instructors integrity. Parents and students can want whatever they like, if the instructor thinks it's wrong it is up to him to say so and hold his ground.



> None of this does kids any good at all in the long run. When they get to adulthood they won't be protected like they were as kids. They'll experience losses in jobs, sports, relationships etc and since they'll have never dealt with this before they won't know how to cope.



Because of the experience at the morally compromised dojo they will never learn any life lessons or lose at anything ever? 
Just slightly ridiculous don't you think?

Parents are far more invested in their child's success than you are and judging a life based on one relationship dynamic is stupid.
In the case of such parents you might simply find that they have an idea of when their child that they love and care for daily might be ready for such lessons. After all the notion that anyone is acting this way out of fear of hurting feelings is purely your guess from the outside of the situation. 



> I remember when I was a kid about 8 I did a running race for sports day I came dead last by a long margin. That was before I started martial arts and frankly I was a lazy git then but losing like that it motivated to get myself better so I started running more.



And if you'd been given a participation medal do you think that would have removed the heartbrake at being the last person to pass the finish line? I don't.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I also didn't read the word "some". If I say, "Cars have only 3 wheels", that implicitly refers to all cars - and is therefore incorrect. If I say, "Some cars only have 3 wheels", that is accurate.



But since we're grown ups and know that's not true it can go without saying, as it usually does. Also I made no such definitive statement. Because it would be stupid and unnecessary and disrupt the flow of my writing.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Look at it this way. 20 kids run a race.
> 1 kid wins and learns that effort gets you a reward and that he/she is awesome.
> 2 runner ups learn that hard work gets them a reward and either they are nearly awesome but just not talented enough to win.
> 
> Now, 17 other children learn that they suck.



*Exactly*. The thing of course is that those 17 children did work hard, they did put effort in likely more than the winner did but they simply aren't fast enough runners, they never will be however hard they work. They really don't suck. Not everyone is born physically able to run fast. It's all about talent not work so actually it actually only rewards someone for being born with a talent. Frankly sports days are a waste of time, the talented will win, the untalented will be deemed losers who 'didn't work hard enough.

Competitions are good but only when everyone is a willing participant and everyone has a good chance of winning because they can work hard and put the effort in as opposed to being up against someone who doesn't have to work hard because they have a natural talent. The thrill of winning against peers is awesome, losing against peers means you will work harder to beat them next time. You wouldn't put Sir Mo Farah up against Usain Bolt in either a sprint or distance race because you know who will win, but put either of them in a race of their peers and you have a true race. Don't just bung kids in a race then tell them they would have won if they worked harder so it's a life lesson. No, it isn't.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 6, 2017)

Jenna said:


> It was not Socrates say, I know that I know nothing? So see? You cannot trust that guy  Plus he was not smarter than poison so



Smarter than poison?

I mean Socrates said some smart stuff.

But poison came up with the meaning of life.

Every rose has its thorn.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Did you have them in the US? Messerschmitts, Bubble cars and of course the Robin Reliant! Made famous by 'Only Fools and Horses', if you haven't watch that see if you can hunt the box set down.


There have been a few that showed up in the US, including some newer ones, which were probably kit cars.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> You see young kids in a race always put max effort because they don't know how not to. They also don't yet know that they can get better at things, so if they win they are winners and if not they are losers until they are taught otherwise.
> 
> But what they don't learn is that putting effort in is waste of time because they lost anyway.


This set of statements isn't supported by psychological research. Young kids do not always put max effort in. Most start to learn fairly early that they can improve. And most do not give up because they didn't get a trophy. 

That last point can be observed by the vast number of children who played soccer on the teams around me when I was growing up. Many of them played in that league for 11 years, just like I did. Most of us only got trophies a couple of those years, if we were lucky, since only the top team got trophies.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 6, 2017)

DaveB said:


> But since we're grown ups and know that's not true it can go without saying, as it usually does. Also I made no such definitive statement. Because it would be stupid and unnecessary and disrupt the flow of my writing.


If you make a statement that appears to be absolute (as I demonstrated), then it's not a "strawman" for someone to understand it as such. Miscommunication isn't a logical fallacy.


----------



## DaveB (Aug 6, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This set of statements isn't supported by psychological research. Young kids do not always put max effort in. Most start to learn fairly early that they can improve. And most do not give up because they didn't get a trophy.
> 
> That last point can be observed by the vast number of children who played soccer on the teams around me when I was growing up. Many of them played in that league for 11 years, just like I did. Most of us only got trophies a couple of those years, if we were lucky, since only the top team got trophies.


I'd like to see that research if possible.

It strikes me that we may all be speaking about different age groups when we refer to kids. I'm thinking of 5-7 yr olds because I'm not aware of participation awards being prevalent outside that age group.


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## jks9199 (Aug 6, 2017)

Gentlefolk,

If I was unclear, let me change that.  Drop the politics.  If you want to discuss political issues -- go to US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

No more warnings.  Keep to the original discussion, and leave the politics out.

jks9199
Administrator


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## drop bear (Aug 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Smarter than poison?
> 
> I mean Socrates said some smart stuff.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hyoho (Aug 7, 2017)

Getting back to subject belts gradings etc was and still is a system for Japanese. Education there, what one does, what is expected is somewhat different than the West.

I did seminars last year in Canada where a couple of millennials were taking part. I got dragged in a bit as they seemed to be sending out a ton of emails as to what they 'expected' rather than what they earned. 

This was all quite new to me. Hats off to their sensei who was going with the flow and trying to ease them in. Personally my own feelings were along the lines that MA was just not the place for them. 

Are we talking about gradings for money or gradings for ability here?


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Young kids do not always put max effort in.





DaveB said:


> I'm thinking of 5-7 yr olds because I'm not aware of participation awards being prevalent outside that age group.




There is no reason why such young children should put maximum effort into anything, they are young children still learning about the world, still learning how to react 'properly', and frankly they should be enjoying themselves not setting out to please adults, even education should be enjoyable. The idea that children should be introduced to the harshness of the world immediately is sad, far too many already know how hard the world can be as it is.
I haven't heard of these participation awards being given out beyond the first couple of years in school either, they start school most often in the September of the year they are five here so the first couple of years are spent fitting themselves into the school day which usually starts at nine and goes on until half three, lunch is at school. This is a huge learning curve for such young children so if you add a competitive sports day where they are expected to strive for medals it's plainly ridiculous. I'm sure some helicopter parents would love it to be competitive for boasting points but the truth is giving the children participation awards is the correct thing because they are learning to participate, learning how to function in the wider world and their place in it. If there are school sports days afterwards, by no means certain as the testing the government wants now precludes many activities they children used to do, they certainly have a winner and runners up but as my points earlier they actually mean little because of the randomness of genes and talent!

Many here wouldn't teach children aged 5-7 martial arts so why expect them to be able to do 'proper' athletics? Participation is the precursor to much, let the children find out what they enjoy doing, what they are good at, give them a wide range of activities to try before making it serious enough to have winners and losers. Every child is good at something, it just needs the patience to find out what it is.


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## Hyoho (Aug 7, 2017)

I dont normaly post videos. But as an example this child is 'not' exceptional in Japan. Even Kindergarten kids compared with other countries have exceptional abilities and mind sets and its not just in Budo. Japanese kids are 'forged' to the extent that I am sure many foreigners would disagree with. They would even possibly put it down to child cruelty. Kindergarden is a kids boot camp It's for them that the grading systems and belts were devised. Kano Jigoro was not just a Judo founder. He was a leader in Japanese education. 

This is partly why Japan has been so successful. But the problem lies in a lack of or actual disdain of international understanding. Anybody else that lives in Japan and works in the education system would agree. I know other countries have arts and gradings but what we see today is a bastardized version of the original made to fit Western ideals.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 7, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> Gentlefolk,
> 
> If I was unclear, let me change that.  Drop the politics.  If you want to discuss political issues -- go to US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
> 
> ...



In my opinion, to separate the two is impossible.  The OP made a post about the current state of belt rankings, which is a proxy war of sorts of people's political ideologies. This is why I bowed out of the conversation.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 7, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Japanese kids are 'forged' to the extent that I am sure many foreigners would disagree with. They would even possibly put it down to child cruelty. Kindergarden is a kids boot camp It's for them that the grading systems and belts were devised.


" it was for them that the grading systems were devised " 
This is so important I can't repeat enough.
My question then to you Hyoho,  as westerners,  are we incorrect in using the belt ranks at all?  Would it not be better to abandon them all together? We are in essence putting the round peg in a square hole.  It will fit but that doesn't make it right.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> I dont normaly post videos. But as an example this child is 'not' exceptional in Japan. Even Kindergarten kids compared with other countries have exceptional abilities and mind sets and its not just in Budo. Japanese kids are 'forged' to the extent that I am sure many foreigners would disagree with. They would even possibly put it down to child cruelty. Kindergarden is a kids boot camp It's for them that the grading systems and belts were devised. Kano Jigoro was not just a Judo founder. He was a leader in Japanese education.
> 
> This is partly why Japan has been so successful. But the problem lies in a lack of or actual disdain of international understanding. Anybody else that lives in Japan and works in the education system would agree. I know other countries have arts and gradings but what we see today is a bastardized version of the original made to fit Western ideals.




It comes with it's own problems though. Suicide of Japanese Youth.  - PubMed - NCBI
Japan's Suicide Problem: Searching for Answers
Why have young people in Japan stopped having sex?
Japanese children and young people explained

I wouldn't say that young Japanese children have exceptional abilities that children in other countries don't have, I'd say they are hot housed and pressured into becoming something they are too young to be. With a suicide rate as high as Japans it would bear more investigation than boasting about how good Japanese children are compared to foreigners.


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Smarter than poison?
> 
> I mean Socrates said some smart stuff.
> 
> ...


So then it was Socrates all along who started hair-rock?  You must cite you revidence for that claim! 

Socrates have a cool beard though.. he is like the hipster of ancient Greeks!


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I'd like to see that research if possible.
> 
> It strikes me that we may all be speaking about different age groups when we refer to kids. I'm thinking of 5-7 yr olds because I'm not aware of participation awards being prevalent outside that age group.


I think the difference may be partly that I'm considering that age group as part of the overall span. Developmental milestones in that age range create a different effect than the same structure used at a different age, but the effects extend beyond that age, affecting the children's reactions later. 

Note that I don't think participation awards are inherently problematic. In fact, they are useful. It's how they are delivered in context that changes things. For instance - using an adult example - I get a "trophy" of sorts for every mud run I do. Time and performance aren't relevant. In fact, they are often given at the beginning of the activity. For adults in that context, we know someone who shows up 1) is almost certain to participate, and 2) has already made an unusual choice in participation. Rewarding unusual participation in some manner (a t-shirt or even a medallion) isn't problematic, so long as there is still some reward for those who excel in some way. MVP awards are probably only useful among peers (people of roughly similar ability), and best performance (winner) awards are useful to those who win if they have to work for it (not the kid who is just naturally much faster than the others, but the one who manages to just edge out the other two fast kids). 

If everyone (in the cohort) is participating, that's when a participation award dilutes reward schema. Also, if participation awards are automatic, regardless of level of participation, so the kid who barely bothers gets the same reward as those who put forth full effort. In that latter case, both sets of children (the vague participant and the full participant) can receive some improper cues from the awards. 

I'll do a quick search later and see if I can't find a public link to a couple of journal articles related to the research I mentioned.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> There is no reason why such young children should put maximum effort into anything, they are young children still learning about the world, still learning how to react 'properly', and frankly they should be enjoying themselves not setting out to please adults, even education should be enjoyable. The idea that children should be introduced to the harshness of the world immediately is sad, far too many already know how hard the world can be as it is.
> I haven't heard of these participation awards being given out beyond the first couple of years in school either, they start school most often in the September of the year they are five here so the first couple of years are spent fitting themselves into the school day which usually starts at nine and goes on until half three, lunch is at school. This is a huge learning curve for such young children so if you add a competitive sports day where they are expected to strive for medals it's plainly ridiculous. I'm sure some helicopter parents would love it to be competitive for boasting points but the truth is giving the children participation awards is the correct thing because they are learning to participate, learning how to function in the wider world and their place in it. If there are school sports days afterwards, by no means certain as the testing the government wants now precludes many activities they children used to do, they certainly have a winner and runners up but as my points earlier they actually mean little because of the randomness of genes and talent!
> 
> Many here wouldn't teach children aged 5-7 martial arts so why expect them to be able to do 'proper' athletics? Participation is the precursor to much, let the children find out what they enjoy doing, what they are good at, give them a wide range of activities to try before making it serious enough to have winners and losers. Every child is good at something, it just needs the patience to find out what it is.


I don't think this is about introducing children to the "harshness of the world". Rather, it is about helping them form realistic reward reactions - or, more accurately, avoiding accidentally helping them form inaccurate (to society) reward schema. So long as what is used builds their motivation (immediately and in the long term), it is good for them. We just want to avoid causing them problems with well-intended actions. 

ADMINISTRATORS: If this is seen as a political area, please let me know. I see this as discussing child development (an area of psychology), which has relevance to instructors who teach kids.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> " it was for them that the grading systems were devised "
> This is so important I can't repeat enough.
> My question then to you Hyoho,  as westerners,  are we incorrect in using the belt ranks at all?  Would it not be better to abandon them all together? We are in essence putting the round peg in a square hole.  It will fit but that doesn't make it right.


Just because belt ranks were originally designed for Japanese children, that doesn't mean they can't be used appropriately outside that context. They should undergo changes to make them useful to that context. In Japan, colored belt ranks are not limited to children, so I assume the Japanese found a way to use them effectively among adults, as well.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think the difference may be partly that I'm considering that age group as part of the overall span



In the UK though that's the only age group that has school 'participation' awards. It's in reception classes that this happens not older children. I believe children in the USA aren't at school at this age and are still in kindergarten/playschool which is for much younger children here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> In the UK though that's the only age group that has school 'participation' awards. It's in reception classes that this happens not older children. I believe children in the USA aren't at school at this age and are still in kindergarten/playschool which is for much younger children here.


Kindergarten isn't the same thing as playschool, and now often starts at 4-5 years old in the US, as I understand it. When I was in school, kindergarten started at 5-6, and involved some actual learning, even back then. Since then, there has been a move to start more actual education earlier.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

School sports day is one afternoon a year, we have hundreds of thousands of children who compete against each other in a myriad of sports. Gymnastics, Cheer, football, touch rugby, cricket, athletics, cross country running, shooting, fishing, gymkhanas, dancing, BMXing, netball, hockey, volleyball, etc etc. Children aren't reliant on gaining information about 'winning and losing' from one afternoon of silly school races.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Kindergarten isn't the same thing as playschool, and now often starts at 4-5 years old in the US, as I understand it. When I was in school, kindergarten started at 5-6, and involved some actual learning, even back then. Since then, there has been a move to start more actual education earlier.



Your kindergarten would be our children at primary school, Years 1 and 2. Ours start school in the September or Easter so basically they start proper school at about four and a half some can be younger though. Kindergartens ( usually called nurseries here) usually have rooms for babies and toddlers as well as a playschool for older children, they are daycare centres though some posh ones (pre-prep schools are for getting rich kids ready to get into Prep schools ( they start at 4 until 11 or 13 when they will go onto Public schools) the pressure on this children to succeed is every bit as robust as the Japanese system.
At 6 and 7 here children are taking national tests in English, maths and science. this is the curriculum for age 6-7 The national curriculum: Key stage 1 and 2 - GOV.UK.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> School sports day is one afternoon a year, we have hundreds of thousands of children who compete against each other in a myriad of sports. Gymnastics, Cheer, football, touch rugby, cricket, athletics, cross country running, shooting, fishing, gymkhanas, dancing, BMXing, netball, hockey, volleyball, etc etc. Children aren't reliant on gaining information about 'winning and losing' from one afternoon of silly school races.


Agreed. What happens that one day will have little (though not nonexistent, probable immesurably small) effect. It would only matter if it is a part of a larger trend (or confusing lack of consistency) a child is exposed to. Absent that, it won't be significant in the formation of a reward schema.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Your kindergarten would be our children at primary school, Years 1 and 2. Ours start school in the September or Easter so basically they start proper school at about four and a half some can be younger though. Kindergartens ( usually called nurseries here) usually have rooms for babies and toddlers as well as a playschool for older children, they are daycare centres though some posh ones (pre-prep schools are for getting rich kids ready to get into Prep schools ( they start at 4 until 11 or 13 when they will go onto Public schools) the pressure on this children to succeed is every bit as robust as the Japanese system.
> At 6 and 7 here children are taking national tests in English, maths and science. this is the curriculum for age 6-7 The national curriculum: Key stage 1 and 2 - GOV.UK.


It does sound like the education is more rigorous at that age point (consistent with my wife's experience in the USSR), though a similar track.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It does sound like the education is more rigorous at that age point (consistent with my wife's experience in the USSR), though a similar track.



Certain people here, and it is political because of the Brexit situation, like to claim that the no competition thing is from the EU therefore 'bad'. There are more and more claims everyday, it's a crazy situation, accusations of 'nanny state', and PC'ism are rife, while harking back to the good old days when we were an Empire etc are also banded around. The good old days never were that good and it's going to take years before the UK settles down probably decades maybe even a century. It's also noticeable that everyone has an opinion on education and what is good for children, they also have opinions on just about everything and they aren't afraid to express them quite often in the most insulting way possible. A very good reason not to discuss politics on here lol!


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## jobo (Aug 7, 2017)

this thread has flip flopped,since my last viewing, getting back to the original concept, I think its counter productive to teach children to persevere at things generaly, there are only three reasons to do anything, I it will pay you money, two) its a moral duty, ) three ) you enjoy it.. Schools work falls into the first class, children then find that the other two get mixed up, they feel a moral duty to continue say MA because their parents want them to do it and have invested time and money in it. That is really not fare, either the kid enjoys what they are doing or they should be,supported in jacking it in.and not morally black mailed into continuing because mum and dad think its good for them


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

jobo said:


> this thread has flip flopped,since my last viewing, getting back to the original concept, I think its counter productive to teach children to persevere at things generaly, there are only three reasons to do anything, I it will pay you money, two) its a moral duty, ) three ) you enjoy it.. Schools work falls into the first class, children then find that the other two get mixed up, they feel a moral duty to continue say MA because their parents want them to do it and have invested time and money in it. That is really not fare, either the kid enjoys what they are doing or they should be,supported in jacking it in.and not morally black mailed into continuing because mum and dad think its good for them



I've been involved in children's activities for years, Pony Club, Scouting, Guiding, children's martial arts, I've taken my children to various activities too and the common thing running through all of these is the pushy parent, the one who wants the child to win everything or to be the best out of everyone and the poor child hates the activity, just does it because the parents want them to. It's heartbreaking to see a child who is scared of horses on a pony trying to please a parent, or a girl taking ballet exams because mum wanted to be a ballerina, the Cub who had to do every badge because mum wanted to boast how many badges he had and of course the child who has to grade top in martial arts but really didn't want to.
It can be frustrating finding *the* activity your child enjoys and wants to do but it's out there, just have to be patient and keep looking. It makes the child and the instructors/coaches/teachers frustrated and sad when the child doesn't want to be in the class.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just because belt ranks were originally designed for Japanese children, that doesn't mean they can't be used appropriately outside that context. They should undergo changes to make them useful to that context. In Japan, colored belt ranks are not limited to children, so I assume the Japanese found a way to use them effectively among adults, as well.



i dont see it as a child/ adult thing. i see it as a Japanese cultural thing.  my question and line of thinking is that as a different culture, can we borrow a system like rank and use it as it was meant to be used, or like you said do we need to change its significance?  if the significance needs to change then we are at present in a state of confusion. some people using it as a mark of competency and others using it as a mark of time in grade yet others will assign their own significance to rank. this is the same for adult as for children.  this is why we often have conversations here about what a black belt means.  if we have to reassign meaning to belts to match our culture perhaps we could do better by scraping the entire concept and hand out "participation awards" to children like every other activity.  if we compare karate to football or trumpet playing , no other activity assigns a grading to it.


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## jobo (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I've been involved in children's activities for years, Pony Club, Scouting, Guiding, children's martial arts, I've taken my children to various activities too and the common thing running through all of these is the pushy parent, the one who wants the child to win everything or to be the best out of everyone and the poor child hates the activity, just does it because the parents want them to. It's heartbreaking to see a child who is scared of horses on a pony trying to please a parent, or a girl taking ballet exams because mum wanted to be a ballerina, the Cub who had to do every badge because mum wanted to boast how many badges he had and of course the child who has to grade top in martial arts but really didn't want to.
> It can be frustrating finding *the* activity your child enjoys and wants to do but it's out there, just have to be patient and keep looking. It makes the child and the instructors/coaches/teachers frustrated and sad when the child doesn't want to be in the class.


I had it as a kid, my dad was a good rugby player, I was a better one, but I didn't at all like it, I was 16 and playing for an elite under 18 side before I had the courage to yell him  I didn't want to do it, I wanted to play soccer, a thing I wasn't very good at but enjoyed.

some decades later, I spent a load of money taking my niece horse riding, , I could see after a few weeks she wasn't enjoying it, mostly because the bossy instructor woman kept shouting at them, . Tell them to stick it, if you don't like it I told her
 after on out burst at her, she got of the horse and just walk out, she thought I would be cross, but I was very proud of her for sticking up for herself


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## jobo (Aug 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont see it as a child/ adult thing. i see it as a Japanese cultural thing.  my question and line of thinking is that as a different culture, can we borrow a system like rank and use it as it was meant to be used, or like you said do we need to change its significance?  if the significance needs to change then we are at present in a state of confusion. some people using it as a mark of competency and others using it as a mark of time in grade yet others will assign their own significance to rank. this is the same for adult as for children.  this is why we often have conversations here about what a black belt means.  if we have to reassign meaning to belts to match our culture perhaps we could do better by scraping the entire concept and hand out "participation awards" to children like every other activity.  if we compare karate to football or trumpet playing , no other activity assigns a grading to it.


swimming,assigns grades, as does gymnastics and dancing and trumpet playing


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

jobo said:


> this thread has flip flopped,since my last viewing, getting back to the original concept, I think its counter productive to teach children to persevere at things generaly, there are only three reasons to do anything, I it will pay you money, two) its a moral duty, ) three ) you enjoy it.. Schools work falls into the first class, children then find that the other two get mixed up, they feel a moral duty to continue say MA because their parents want them to do it and have invested time and money in it. That is really not fare, either the kid enjoys what they are doing or they should be,supported in jacking it in.and not morally black mailed into continuing because mum and dad think its good for them


Okay, I like the general concept here, Jobo, but I feel like I'm missing something between the first and second parts of your comment. How does learning to persevere not meet the first and third criteria? Nearly everything I enjoy today only became really enjoyable after I got through a part I didn't enjoy as much (including MA, public speaking, exercise, training managers, consulting). In fact, there are things I kind of like in concept, but don't really get to enjoy because I haven't put enough effort into them (like playing guitar) to get to the fun part (playing actual music). And learning to persevere is perhaps one of the biggest factors in career success.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont see it as a child/ adult thing. i see it as a Japanese cultural thing.  my question and line of thinking is that as a different culture, can we borrow a system like rank and use it as it was meant to be used, or like you said do we need to change its significance?  if the significance needs to change then we are at present in a state of confusion. some people using it as a mark of competency and others using it as a mark of time in grade yet others will assign their own significance to rank. this is the same for adult as for children.  this is why we often have conversations here about what a black belt means.  if we have to reassign meaning to belts to match our culture perhaps we could do better by scraping the entire concept and hand out "participation awards" to children like every other activity.  if we compare karate to football or trumpet playing , no other activity assigns a grading to it.


Perhaps that's not a state of confusion. Perhaps it's simply 3 different uses for the same indicator (belt color/rank). Perhaps this is, in fact, the context-appropriate adaptation of the indicator, and it's only confusing because we relate it back to the original context.

As an analog, let's consider shirt color. This is an indicator used in many contexts: telling sports teams (and fans) apart, identifying managers separately from line staff, identifying staff at a store, identifying prisoners, distinguishing gang members. All of those contexts are quite different, but since we don't try to relate the sports teams to the prison use, we don't see them as confusing.

This becomes more of an intellectual/conceptual discussion at this point, but I think it's useful to consider whether we (including myself in that) confuse the issue if we actually try to link the usage to the original application. Even within NGA - where colored belts appear to have been part of the original organization of the art (unclear - all pictures are black and white) and dan grades clearly existed from inception - it's quite likely that the actual application of what those different ranks/grades mean changed when Bowe brought the art to the US. Whether it changed or not seems immaterial (in our case, entirely so, since the art no longer exists in Japan), so long as the current usage serves its purpose.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I like the general concept here, Jobo, but I feel like I'm missing something between the first and second parts of your comment. How does learning to persevere not meet the first and third criteria? Nearly everything I enjoy today only became really enjoyable after I got through a part I didn't enjoy as much (including MA, public speaking, exercise, training managers, consulting). In fact, there are things I kind of like in concept, but don't really get to enjoy because I haven't put enough effort into them (like playing guitar) to get to the fun part (playing actual music). And learning to persevere is perhaps one of the biggest factors in career success.



There is so much to learn when you are only five, persevering at something you don't like perhaps shouldn't be one of them. Later on then yes of course but young children, who have short attention spans definitely not. If children have to be made to do something then they will learn only negative things.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> i dont see it as a child/ adult thing. i see it as a Japanese cultural thing.  my question and line of thinking is that as a different culture, can we borrow a system like rank and use it as it was meant to be used, or like you said do we need to change its significance?  if the significance needs to change then we are at present in a state of confusion. some people using it as a mark of competency and others using it as a mark of time in grade yet others will assign their own significance to rank. this is the same for adult as for children.  this is why we often have conversations here about what a black belt means.  if we have to reassign meaning to belts to match our culture perhaps we could do better by scraping the entire concept and hand out "participation awards" to children like every other activity.  if we compare karate to football or trumpet playing , no other activity assigns a grading to it.


I forgot to respond to that last point. In football, we actually have a different context. Kids are grouped entirely by age, usually. And those who aren't good enough don't make the team, while others are considered "starters". And in larger sports groups (high school football in the US, for instance), there will even be two levels of teams: varsity and junior varsity. That's a form of grading inherent in most sporting groups. In the most casual groups, there may not be that same set of designations. I coached in AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) many years ago. In that association, the rule is that every child plays at least half the game, and nobody is refused from a team (except for disciplinary reasons). So, we lose the cut/make/starter designations. But kids were given a rating by their coach, which rating was passed along to the organization (not the kid) for the formation of reasonably equal teams next season. So, when we can't cut and include only the most competent, we fall back on a rating scheme.

As for music, there is a grading scheme, when groups are involved. Look at the order musicians are seated in an orchestra. The best group of violinists are "first violinists". The best of these is "first chair, first violin", often concertmaster.


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## jobo (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I like the general concept here, Jobo, but I feel like I'm missing something between the first and second parts of your comment. How does learning to persevere not meet the first and third criteria? Nearly everything I enjoy today only became really enjoyable after I got through a part I didn't enjoy as much (including MA, public speaking, exercise, training managers, consulting). In fact, there are things I kind of like in concept, but don't really get to enjoy because I haven't put enough effort into them (like playing guitar) to get to the fun part (playing actual music). And learning to persevere is perhaps one of the biggest factors in career success.


well the making money part is career success, we all have to do things get good at things because it does or will pay the bills.

if you have an ambition, to say play guitar and your willing to put the effort in to fulfil that ambition, that's good, but if you don't enjoy the practise then you should pack it in.and do something you do enjoy hoping you get to like it after a decade of effort is a big risk, when you could have spent that time doing something you do enjoy
but there is the distinction between working for your own ambitions and working for someone else's . I've persevered though some horrible jobs to get long term career success and looking back now, I wish I had jacked them in and not wasted four years of my life doing something I hated,


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> There is so much to learn when you are only five, persevering at something you don't like perhaps shouldn't be one of them. Later on then yes of course but young children, who have short attention spans definitely not. If children have to be made to do something then they will learn only negative things.


I agree, partly. I didn't like to practice soccer. But I liked playing. One of the rules was you had to practice to play, and that's a fair rule even kids can understand. When I didn't want to go to practice, my mom simply reminded me that was what I had to do to play, and that if I wanted to play more in the goal (always my favorite position, but never my best), I'd have to be better at that than the other kid who wanted to play in there.

What I agree with is that this should be a minor bit for kids that age. They needn't deal with a lot of struggle and strife. But when they want to skip something simply because they don't want to do it that moment, they should be given some help in figuring out why they should (or shouldn't) do it. They need that help, because they aren't old enough to think beyond "right now!". If I'd wanted to quit soccer, my mom would probably have made me stick out the season (assuming I was already partway in), to make sure it wasn't a "right now!" decision, but she'd have let me quit once she was sure I really didn't want to play.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

jobo said:


> well the making money part is career success, we all have to do things get good at things because it does or will pay the bills.
> 
> if you have an ambition, to say play guitar and your willing to put the effort in to fulfil that ambition, that's good, but if you don't enjoy the practise then you should pack it in.and do something you do enjoy hoping you get to like it after a decade of effort is a big risk, when you could have spent that time doing something you do enjoy
> but there is the distinction between working for your own ambitions and working for someone else's .


Ah, but I never enjoy solo practice - even for things I enjoy being good at (and I'm not sure something like group guitar lessons would be an improvement, if that's even a thing). Practicing solo simply isn't in my nature, so it's something I only do with an eye to a goal as motivation. This even applies to my MA practice. I don't really enjoy the practice, unless it's as part of a group thing. I do it because I enjoy the results. That has been true of much of my MA training, even when training with others. Often, it's just no damned fun in the moment, but very satisfying when it's over.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

jobo said:


> well the making money part is career success, we all have to do things get good at things because it does or will pay the bills.


Yes, and that was the point of my question. It seemed (maybe just my reading of it) that you were saying you should only do something if it makes you more money, is fun, or is a moral duty. And that sticking to something you don't enjoy doesn't fit that. But to me, it actually furthers two of those three. It could be argued that developing the ability to persevere (psych research appears to show this is an actual skill, as is willpower) is also key to the third. So, helping kids learn perseverance would seem key to their ability to build skill to be able to enjoy some activities, and would definitely support their future ability to succeed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> There is so much to learn when you are only five, persevering at something you don't like perhaps shouldn't be one of them. Later on then yes of course but young children, who have short attention spans definitely not. If children have to be made to do something then they will learn only negative things.


I think maybe you and I are viewing "don't like" from different angles. There's "don't wanna do it right now!", and there's "I don't like doing this thing!" If it's a "right now" thing, that's what they (at that age) sometimes need to persevere through. If it's something they actually don't like doing at all, that's something they often don't need to be doing (except where it's something like a learning activity, but many of those can be made into a fun exercise for kids). At that age, they probably only need "some" exposure to perseverance, and not a constant stream of it.


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## Hyoho (Aug 7, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> " it was for them that the grading systems were devised "
> This is so important I can't repeat enough.
> My question then to you Hyoho,  as westerners,  are we incorrect in using the belt ranks at all?  Would it not be better to abandon them all together? We are in essence putting the round peg in a square hole.  It will fit but that doesn't make it right.



Not in the least. Belts are fine. But it might be good idea to award them based on the fact that they are an indication of the level one has reached. This should be made clear. For sure it has become over emphasized.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think maybe you and I are viewing "don't like" from different angles. There's "don't wanna do it right now!", and there's "I don't like doing this thing!" If it's a "right now" thing, that's what they (at that age) sometimes need to persevere through. If it's something they actually don't like doing at all, that's something they often don't need to be doing (except where it's something like a learning activity, but many of those can be made into a fun exercise for kids). At that age, they probably only need "some" exposure to perseverance, and not a constant stream of it.



I look at it from an adult point of view, ie would I want to try it or do it? As adults we wouldn't be forced to try things we didn't want to, I don't want to try ski jumping as much as I love watching it, nor would I want to try rally driving or fishing so why make a child try things if they don't like the look of them. If they want to try something for example gymnastics I'd let them and tell them to give a few weeks before we buy anything needed. if you ask a child if they want to try boxing and they say no that should be the end of it, why would you make a child try it? Leisure activities and sports should totally be the child's choice not imposed on them by adults.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 7, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I look at it from an adult point of view, ie would I want to try it or do it? As adults we wouldn't be forced to try things we didn't want to, I don't want to try ski jumping as much as I love watching it, nor would I want to try rally driving or fishing so why make a child try things if they don't like the look of them. If they want to try something for example gymnastics I'd let them and tell them to give a few weeks before we buy anything needed. if you ask a child if they want to try boxing and they say no that should be the end of it, why would you make a child try it? Leisure activities and sports should totally be the child's choice not imposed on them by adults.


Yes, and that's the "don't like doing this" as opposed to the "I don't want to do this right now" view. We are pretty much in agreement on that. I might encourage a child to sample an available activity they aren't sure about (especially if a sample is available, such as a short class on an activity day), but not one they really don't want to do (though I'm not sure where the line should be drawn for group learning activities at that age).

All of this mess is part of the reason I don't like teaching kids in that age group. My natural tendency is to teach kids in class a bit too much like adults. Once they get a bit older (at least 10, maybe a bit more), they benefit more from the perseverance lesson, and are a bit more likely to have chosen the activity for themselves.


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## Hyoho (Aug 7, 2017)

I have spent most of my life in Japan working in the education system in Kindergarten, Junior High, High School. College and University. Around 3000 students every year. I worked as a guidance counsellor and principal with close contact with parents and students. In all that time there was but one suicide. This was a second-year high school girl and it was related to her parents splitting up. 

The main thing about MA practice at least in Japan is that everyday practice, competition and gradings kata etc. should be treated the same. There should be no special emphasis on any part. A grading is a periodic check to see how far you have advanced and based on what you can do. Never on what you can't do.

Japanese schools do football, rugby, baseball, swimming, athletics, kendo, judo. All the other stuff that other schools all over the world do. The only special emphasis on budo is that you will need a minimum sandan level to move on jobs related to those arts. As most kids already have eight years experience before they even join high school it's a walk in the park. No one is forced to do it. It's a choice and they make and know what it entails to be good at it.

I remember the days that educational budo really was a no pain no gain activity in Japan. Nowadays it's far more laid back and the same levels are achieved. 

I also played Rugby. I distinctly remember by teacher kicking me in the back with his boot to 'encourage' me to play harder. That was probably instrumental in me having a dislike for ball games and what spurred me on to practice budo. Something I found I was good at but encouraged to push the limit without the violence.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Aug 7, 2017)

I think mostly macdojo are the Taekwondo because they give kids black belt at age 7 or 5


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2017)

Most young children's activities are only for an hour or two a week, they don't practice a lot outside class, in things such as martial arts it's best if they don't if they aren't completely sure of the techniques, bad practice being worse than no practice. Again with young children they often don't want to go to a class if they've had a tiring day at school, so it's better if they miss rather than turn up unwillingly. if older children don't want to go it's always better to find out why before trying to persuade them they need to go, I'd always listen to children before telling them they ought to do something.

I wouldn't encourage anyone to get their children into ponies though! Unless you have loads of money as ponies need a constant stream of money spent on them, don't mind mucking out, driving horse boxes, walking courses, learning dressage tests and smelling of horses.  We always had horses and ponies and to be fair though it did lead my daughter to fantastic jobs and an equally fantastic husband. ( Said husband is in Chicago at the moment with a horse called 'Scottish' who is going to win the Arlington Million..if you want a bet)


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 7, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.
> 
> Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.
> 
> ...



Well not all coaches are like that, not all instructors are like that, and not all teachers are like that. Back when I was on the swim team our coach told us that on our road to success we will fail, lots of times. If you always win and you always succeed than you don't know what its like to truly win and succeed. You won't know what its like to truly take on a challenge and to truly beat the challenge. Most moms and dads no doubt want their children to know that too. Failure isn't necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it, its only bad if you don't learn from it.


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## Hyoho (Aug 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> It comes with it's own problems though. I wouldn't say that young Japanese children have exceptional abilities that children in other countries don't have, I'd say they are hot housed and pressured into becoming something they are too young to be. With a suicide rate as high as Japans it would bear more investigation than boasting about how good Japanese children are compared to foreigners.



Sorry if my post came over wrong. Yes you are right. They have exceptional abilities but its the way they teach They do repetition hour after hour every day at kindergarden. Even schools teach the same way. No questions asked, just "study". Then at the end of every day, tests to see if they absorbed what you taught them. This is the basis for grading systems in Japan. It does have its advantages and disadvantages. It depends what you apply it to. For sure it does not make them better human beings. If anything mindless zombies. But then again they know no other life.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well not all coaches are like that, not all instructors are like that, and not all teachers are like that. Back when I was on the swim team our coach told us that on our road to success we will fail, lots of times. If you always win and you always succeed than you don't know what its like to truly win and succeed. You won't know what its like to truly take on a challenge and to truly beat the challenge. Most moms and dads no doubt want their children to know that too. Failure isn't necessarily a bad thing if you learn from it, its only bad if you don't learn from it.



That's dependent on the age of the children, if they are under 10 then they are being pushed too hard too soon, if they are teenagers then that's fair comment but it does very much depend on the children's ages.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2017)

An event where participation is everything, where winning and losing are both celebrated. Started today and is a fantastic event. There's Judo too.
About | Special Olympics GB National Games Sheffield 2017


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## Balrog (Aug 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.
> 
> Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.
> 
> ...


I agree.  Part of what we teach is facing challenges and overcoming them.  Another part of what we teach is self-defense.  I am not doing right by my students if I promote them solely for showing up and writing checks.

I've had students quit because I no-changed them at a testing.  I remember one family that quit because the youngest daughter NCed.  The mom got all in my face about how much I had upset the daughter.  My response was simply to ask her if she intended to let the girl quit everything she tried once it got difficult, and how much did mom think that was going to help her in her later life.  She pulled the family out anyway.  You can't win them all.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2017)

Balrog said:


> I remember one family that quit because the youngest daughter NCed. The mom got all in my face about how much I had upset the daughter. My response was simply to ask her if she intended to let the girl quit everything she tried once it got difficult, and how much did mom think that was going to help her in her later life. She pulled the family out anyway. You can't win them all.



You do wonder sometimes though whether children simply don't want to do it so aren't putting full effort into it because they want to leave. In my experience children who are keen tend not to mind when it gets more difficult, children who don't want to do it anyway are the ones who don't like the difficult bits unless of course they believe their parents when they tell them they are 'totally the most talented so should sail through gradings'!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 8, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> So the thread about belt testing advice got me thinking and before I start this isn't having a go at the op of that thread or anyone in particular at all this is just my random opinions.
> 
> Everyone talks about the mcdojos and giving everyone belts if they don't deserve it. Yes in the martial art world it's totally wrong we all know it.
> 
> ...



We do have a habit of promoting and rewarding mediocrity these days, especially in athletic endeavors, and I do not agree with this at all... and I was the kid in school that came in last or darn close to it in virtually all athletic events I took part in.... but martial arts was my thing and that I did good at and worked to to good at. I remember belt tests from the early to late 70s and you were not given a belt, as a matter of fact just because there was a test coming up didn't mean you were testing....today, especially in some of your "McDojos" in my area they are pretty much given away and not always for skill in marital arts, sometimes for your ability to do your chores at home and this is based on a form the parent's fill out each month. My little Aikidoka's first school was a TKD based McDojos" and that is what they did..... and parents would get all bent out of shape if their child did not get a promotion each time, even if their child had no clue as rto what to do as it applies to the form or move they were asked to do... I got bent out of shape once because my little Aikidoka did absolutely everything perfect for the test, we had worked on it, and they did not promote here over those that did much worse because I did not know about, or fill out, the "Chores" form".....Currently in her Aikido School I see no such thing, they work on what they need to know for their rank and are graded based on what they do. They also are required to be in class so many hours before they can test and I have no issue with this, nor does my little Aikidoka, she knows if she does badly she will not get promoted in Aikido, so she works for it. ....

but if your child is involved in Music competitions, my little Aikidoka is, they do not reward mediocrity, they reward excellence. And some will even acknowledge 2nd and 3rd place,. but don't fool yourself, you are very aware that you lost if you did not get 1st and there are never rewards for anything beyond 3rd place and some times no rewards for anything beyond 1st place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> An event where participation is everything, where winning and losing are both celebrated. Started today and is a fantastic event. There's Judo too.
> About | Special Olympics GB National Games Sheffield 2017


This is one of those areas where "participation" is earned, so a reward for participation isn't empty.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You do wonder sometimes though whether children simply don't want to do it so aren't putting full effort into it because they want to leave. In my experience children who are keen tend not to mind when it gets more difficult, children who don't want to do it anyway are the ones who don't like the difficult bits unless of course they believe their parents when they tell them they are 'totally the most talented so should sail through gradings'!


That last part is a real problem for overly-supportive parents. Kids "reinforced" that way do tend to give up quite easily. The paradigm they have built is that things are easy. Difficulty leads to cognitive dissonance, and quitting is an easy solution (psychologically speaking) to ending the discomfort of that dissonance.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> overly-supportive parents



I think you are being polite here. 

Quitting will be the easy solution because it's obviously the instructor's fault for not recognising the talent of their offspring so they have to leave to find instructors that understand how to coach such wonderful children who are obviously destined to get to the top. I think they will find that instructor though who will take lots of their money and provide lots of lovely belts for the offspring, just hope though they never actually need their martial arts!


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## JR 137 (Aug 8, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I think you are being polite here.
> 
> Quitting will be the easy solution because it's obviously the instructor's fault for not recognising the talent of their offspring so they have to leave to find instructors that understand how to coach such wonderful children who are obviously destined to get to the top. I think they will find that instructor though who will take lots of their money and provide lots of lovely belts for the offspring, just hope though they never actually need their martial arts!


It's not the instructor's fault, per se.  Sometimes the kid is so good that the teacher gets jealous and holds the kid back because the instructor doesn't want the kid to grow up to be better than him.

I've actually heard that one once.  Sadly, I wish I could have made that delusional excuse up.


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> *It's not the instructor's fault,* per se.  Sometimes the kid is so good that the teacher gets jealous and holds the kid back because the instructor doesn't want the kid to grow up to be better than him.
> 
> I've actually heard that one once.  Sadly, I wish I could have made that delusional excuse up.



I was being sarcastic and quoting from the parent's point of view because it will never be their child that can't do it. Nine times out of ten though a child that is actually that good will be given more training not less because to have a student grow so much better is a point of pride.


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## JR 137 (Aug 9, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I was being sarcastic and quoting from the parent's point of view because it will never be their child that can't do it. Nine times out of ten though a child that is actually that good will be given more training not less because to have a student grow so much better is a point of pride.


I was also being sarcastic, looking through the eyes of an idiot I came across. Thankfully it wasn't a parent in either dojo I've trained in.

There's no shortage of delusional and idiotic parents out there, that's for sure.

And I think we're moving away from the helicopter parents generation, and moving into what my boss called the "snow plow parents."  The snow plow parents don't just hover over watching everything, their mentality is push everything in their path out of the way for their child.  The rules and obstacles to success still apply to everyone else, just not their kids.

An example:  the (academic) school I teach at has the rule that parents aren't allowed past the lobby (pre-k 3 and 4 are the exception).  They drop their kids off in the lobby, the kids gather in the gymnasium attached to the lobby, then the kids all walk to class with the teachers.  We have an interesting parent who thinks it's a great idea for everyone else but her.  She feels entitled to be allowed to walk her 5th grade twin daughters and 7th grade son to the classroom.  "My kids have anxiety!" is her battle cry.  Funny thing is, on the odd day that their father drops them off, he waves good bye from the lobby like every other parent, and the kids get along just fine.  When my boss finally put her foot down after some insane things this mother did and enforced the rule, the mother was seen crying in her car every morning and afternoon by several parents and students.  Who's anxiety was the parent addressing?

There's plenty more examples of psychosis I could cite by this new breed of parents. They make us miss the helicopter parents dearly.


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## PhotonGuy (Aug 9, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I was being sarcastic and quoting from the parent's point of view because it will never be their child that can't do it. Nine times out of ten though a child that is actually that good will be given more training not less because to have a student grow so much better is a point of pride.



It can be hard to tell when a person is being sarcastic if they do it in writing.


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## Tez3 (Aug 9, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> It can be hard to tell when a person is being sarcastic if they do it in writing.



Not when you understand the meaning of the whole paragraph.


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## Hyoho (Aug 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> There's no shortage of delusional and idiotic parents out there, that's for sure.
> 
> There's plenty more examples of psychosis I could cite by this new breed of parents. They make us miss the helicopter parents dearly.



Working in guidance for years I quickly realized at meetings that most of the time it was the parents that needed guidance, not the kids.


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## JR 137 (Aug 9, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Working in guidance for years I quickly realized at meetings that most of the time it was the parents that needed guidance, not the kids.


Absolutely.  There's two sayings that have become so ingrained in my vocabulary since I started teaching...

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

There's very few absolutes in life, but those two sayings are about as close as it gets.


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## Hyoho (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Absolutely.  There's two sayings that have become so ingrained in my vocabulary since I started teaching...
> 
> The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
> 
> ...



When I first started we had no PTA. When that started and staff visited homes we soon found found out why some kids were unstable


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## Tez3 (Aug 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Working in guidance for years I quickly realized at meetings that most of the time it was the parents that needed guidance, not the kids.



Children and pets, often pets are interchangeable with children for some adults but always the adult's fault outside things like autism.


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## JR 137 (Aug 10, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> When I first started we had no PTA. When that started and staff visited homes we soon found found out why some kids were unstable



The school I teach at is a very small private school. I teach grades 4-8 science, along with pre-k and kindergarten physical education.  Therefore I really get to know the kids and their parents quite well opposed to many teachers who teach a kid for 1 year.  The better I get to know all parties involved, the more I realize how much the family/home dynamics I'm seeing in the classroom.  The less issues I see in the family/the more stable the home environment, the better they do, academically and perhaps more importantly socially. 



Tez3 said:


> Children and pets, often pets are interchangeable with children for some adults but always the adult's fault outside things like autism.



Not that I'm assigning fault in instances like Autism nor other disabilities by any means, but quite often when a kid has conditions like these, I've seen similar tendencies in a parent or even both parents.  I'm quite often reminded that these things don't just come from nowhere.  I know that sounds bad, but it's something I've seen often.

Most of my students' parents are very well intentioned.  When I see behavioral issues, quite often it's not because the parents don't try, it's because there's a lack of consistency and/or follow through with enforcement of the rules.

This is all anecdotal.  But when I see the same things over and over and over again, it's hard to ignore and not come to certain conclusions based on the repeated observations.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The school I teach at is a very small private school. I teach grades 4-8 science, along with pre-k and kindergarten physical education.  Therefore I really get to know the kids and their parents quite well opposed to many teachers who teach a kid for 1 year.  The better I get to know all parties involved, the more I realize how much the family/home dynamics I'm seeing in the classroom.  The less issues I see in the family/the more stable the home environment, the better they do, academically and perhaps more importantly socially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There appears to be a genetic component to Autism, so perhaps the parents you saw were on the spectrum, too.


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## Steve (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I was also being sarcastic, looking through the eyes of an idiot I came across. Thankfully it wasn't a parent in either dojo I've trained in.
> 
> There's no shortage of delusional and idiotic parents out there, that's for sure.
> 
> ...


I've seen things like this, too, but I think it's a little early to identify it as a trend.   Some folks have issues.  

This post resonates, though.   At Disney world, there are so many different families all smushed together.   Most are pleasant and polite.   Some are looking for every advantage they can get.


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## JR 137 (Aug 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There appears to be a genetic component to Autism, so perhaps the parents you saw were on the spectrum, too.


When I see those, I'm mostly thinking of the people who if you casually talked to them for a few minutes here and there, you wouldn't think anything was out of place.  But once you get to know them beyond the casual and non-personal level, you start to pick up on subtitles that become more apparent.

As far as genetic, I think the rule in the medical field is they can't call something genetic until they identify the gene or genes responsible for it.  Classic example is polycystic kidney disease (PKD).  My maternal grandmother and 8 out of her 9 children all have the disease.  For decades they were told it was coincidental and not genetic.  Until they identified the gene.  Fortunately it's a dominant gene, so no one is a carrier without developing the disease.

My cousin's son is autistic.  My cousin and his wife don't have any traits.  But my cousin's father?  He a "very odd guy" and reportedly didn't speak a word until he was 6.  Growing up when he did and in Beirut, Lebanon, Autism wasn't exactly something people were looking for.  My cousin looked at me like I had 3 heads when I suggested his father was on the spectrum (after his son was diagnosed).  After I talked about his father's traits, the lightbulb went off.  Stuff like this doesn't just come from nowhere.


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## Steve (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> When I see those, I'm mostly thinking of the people who if you casually talked to them for a few minutes here and there, you wouldn't think anything was out of place.  But once you get to know them beyond the casual and non-personal level, you start to pick up on subtitles that become more apparent.
> 
> As far as genetic, I think the rule in the medical field is they can't call something genetic until they identify the gene or genes responsible for it.  Classic example is polycystic kidney disease (PKD).  My maternal grandmother and 8 out of her 9 children all have the disease.  For decades they were told it was coincidental and not genetic.  Until they identified the gene.  Fortunately it's a dominant gene, so no one is a carrier without developing the disease.
> 
> My cousin's son is autistic.  My cousin and his wife don't have any traits.  But my cousin's father?  He a "very odd guy" and reportedly didn't speak a word until he was 6.  Growing up when he did and in Beirut, Lebanon, Autism wasn't exactly something people were looking for.  My cousin looked at me like I had 3 heads when I suggested his father was on the spectrum (after his son was diagnosed).  After I talked about his father's traits, the lightbulb went off.  Stuff like this doesn't just come from nowhere.


I'm a firm believer in genetic memory.


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## Tez3 (Aug 10, 2017)

Autism spectrum disorder - Causes - NHS Choices


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 10, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> When I see those, I'm mostly thinking of the people who if you casually talked to them for a few minutes here and there, you wouldn't think anything was out of place.  But once you get to know them beyond the casual and non-personal level, you start to pick up on subtitles that become more apparent.
> 
> As far as genetic, I think the rule in the medical field is they can't call something genetic until they identify the gene or genes responsible for it.  Classic example is polycystic kidney disease (PKD).  My maternal grandmother and 8 out of her 9 children all have the disease.  For decades they were told it was coincidental and not genetic.  Until they identified the gene.  Fortunately it's a dominant gene, so no one is a carrier without developing the disease.
> 
> My cousin's son is autistic.  My cousin and his wife don't have any traits.  But my cousin's father?  He a "very odd guy" and reportedly didn't speak a word until he was 6.  Growing up when he did and in Beirut, Lebanon, Autism wasn't exactly something people were looking for.  My cousin looked at me like I had 3 heads when I suggested his father was on the spectrum (after his son was diagnosed).  After I talked about his father's traits, the lightbulb went off.  Stuff like this doesn't just come from nowhere.


I'm not sure there's a hard and fast rule among scientists. I've read discussions of the "genetic component" that seems apparent. They likely won't call it conclusively genetic until they isolate the gene, because there are so many other shared variables. Like with your family and PKD. They (mother and kids) shared some environmental and dietary circumstances, so it would be difficult to determine (on that sample) whether the cause is genetic or circumstantial. It's the same kind of problem that's run into with nature vs. nurture discussions.


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## shihansmurf (Aug 21, 2017)

This thread took some interesting drifts. To attempt to address the OP if I can remember it clearly after all this.

I have specific performance measures that I have tied to each rank. White to yellow requires the student to be able to settle into a fighting stance whilst landing a punch or a block, for example.  Yellow with a stripe requires being able to do so while going from a natural position into a cat stance or a lunge stance. All of the belt levels have a hard performance measure associated with it and I don't promote until the student can perform it. My job it to teach karate, not life skills, philosophy, character development, or anything else. Students don't come to me for that. I've had much better results with my students once I've understood that I am a coach.

Just my view.
Mark

DO I get a participation ribbon for this thread?


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