# Train what you carry?



## Bill Bednarick (May 17, 2007)

How many of you train with a knife that is even close to your carry blade?
Or for that matter train to deploy it?

I've been working with the idea and this is what I've come up with.
These went to an East coast FMA guy.






So what do you think?
Is it important to train the blade you would like to carry?
Or is a generic blade shaped object good enough?


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## Brother John (May 17, 2007)

*CRUCIAL!  *
and something that not a lot of people think of.
Sort of like 'blade deployment skills'. The BEST knife and the BEST knife fighting skills do you NO good if the belt can't be accessed and deployed in time.

Your Brother
John


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## Bill Bednarick (May 17, 2007)

Brother John said:


> *CRUCIAL!  *
> and something that not a lot of people think of.
> Sort of like 'blade deployment skills'. The BEST knife and the BEST knife fighting skills do you NO good if the belt can't be accessed and deployed in time.
> 
> ...



That is my feeling too John.
Too often training starts with knives out and that's ok for the aspects being covered. 
But it totally ignores the access of the blade which is JUST as important maybe as you said more so.

Look at JMA, they have Kendo and they have Iaido. 
While the sword is not reasonable for carry in our society the ideas they trained still have value.


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## tellner (May 17, 2007)

*raises hand*


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## Brother John (May 17, 2007)

don't know why I said 'belt' 
I meant blade.

sorry...
the best keyboard in the world does me NO good if I'm sleepy as hell.

Your Brother
John


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 17, 2007)

It is very important to train with a trainer that approximates what you regularly carry.  In the moment it can only help!


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## Bill Bednarick (May 17, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is very important to train with a trainer that approximates what you regularly carry.  In the moment it can only help!



Brian, 
Do your people do deployment drills? Or do you mix deployment into existing drills?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 17, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Brian,
> Do your people do deployment drills? Or do you mix deployment into existing drills?


 
Hey Bill,

We absolutely do alot of deployment drills plus mix them in with other
drills.  Nothing like having a single stick drill that rolls right into a spontaneous stick & dagger drill or trapping hands that goes from empty hands to tools based training. (lots of variations)  That keeps it fresh and lots of fun for everyone.


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## JBrainard (May 17, 2007)

Deployment is a big part of the knife course at our school. A lot of the time we start with an empty hand flow drill, and then, once you've got a good flow goin', someone pulls a knife. Gotta' be quick!


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## KenpoTex (May 19, 2007)

I agree that it is very important to practice with what you carry.  It's particularly important to practice deploying the knife under dynamic circumstances.

I have a trainer for all of the knives I carry on a regular basis.


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## arnisador (May 19, 2007)

kenpotex said:


> I agree that it is very important to practice with what you carry.  It's particularly important to practice deploying the knife under dynamic circumstances.
> 
> I have a trainer for all of the knives I carry on a regular basis.



I'm always frustrated by how hard it is to get an exact match trainer for my blades. Why don't companies make them as a matter-of-course?


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## Bill Bednarick (May 19, 2007)

arnisador said:


> I'm always frustrated by how hard it is to get an exact match trainer for my blades. Why don't companies make them as a matter-of-course?



Well, as a person who solves this problem for people on a regular basis I'm in the position to comment.

Trainers take almost as much time to make as a live blade does.
Most knife companies deal with things on a volume basis, hence the constant changing models and outsourcing for cheaper manufacturing.
The people that buy trainers do not represent enough volume for alot of the mainstream companies.

There are a few notable exceptions that do a great job, but most would rather not bother.

Then there is the very real need to match the carry system to the training blade.


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## Bill Bednarick (May 19, 2007)

kenpotex said:


> I agree that it is very important to practice with what you carry.  It's particularly important to practice deploying the knife under dynamic circumstances.
> 
> I have a trainer for all of the knives I carry on a regular basis.



Nice Goldsworthy. 
Did he do the trainer?


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## Carol (May 19, 2007)

I've heard of people buying two knives and grinding the edge and point off of one to make a trainer.

What do you all think of this practice?


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## Bill Bednarick (May 19, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> I've heard of people buying two knives and grinding the edge and point off of one to make a trainer.
> 
> What do you all think of this practice?



I think it's not going to happen with a 150 dollar knife. 
Well that and even if you take off the edge and point the blade is still thin enough to cut pretty easily.

Heck the 1/4" aluminum trainers will hurt and break the skin if not used with control. Then figure the increase of damage from a ground down live blade.

For solo use to prevent injury to yourself I like them.
For partner drills I like some thing thicker and or softer.


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## KenpoTex (May 20, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Nice Goldsworthy.
> Did he do the trainer?


 
nice to see a fellow aficionado  Yeah, he did the trainer as well. Do you have any of his stuff? If so, which one(s)?




			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> I'm always frustrated by how hard it is to get an exact match trainer for my blades. Why don't companies make them as a matter-of-course?


 I think the main reason is pretty much what Bill said (cost of manufacturing vs. demand). Most people who carry a knife for self-defense don't bother to actually train with what they carry. When I've told people that the trainers often cost as much as the live-blades, they just don't understand why I'd spend that much for a "fake knife" 

I doubt that the companies will ever offer trainers for every model but it'd be nice if more companies would have trainers for _most_ of their popular models. Benchmade, Emerson, Spyderco, and some of the semi-custom companies/makers are pretty good about this but many of the others are not.


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## Drac (May 20, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> So what do you think? Is it important to train the blade you would like to carry?
> Or is a generic blade shaped object good enough?


 

I think its REAL important to train that way, it only make sense..But what do I know, I'm just a dumb street cop..Now for disarming practice I don't mind using the aluminum fixed blade trainers..The LE community needs a quality folder trainer for realistic training...


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## SFC JeffJ (May 20, 2007)

Drac said:


> I think its REAL important to train that way, it only make sense..But what do I know, I'm just a dumb street cop..Now for disarming practice I don't mind using the aluminum fixed blade trainers..The LE community needs a quality folder trainer for realistic training...


I'm putting a little work on one  you can deploy and strike with Drac!


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## Drac (May 20, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I'm putting a little work on one you can deploy and strike with Drac!


 
Hope you post a picture of it when your're finished...


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## Rich Parsons (May 20, 2007)

Bill Bednarick said:


> Well, as a person who solves this problem for people on a regular basis I'm in the position to comment.
> 
> Trainers take almost as much time to make as a live blade does.
> Most knife companies deal with things on a volume basis, hence the constant changing models and outsourcing for cheaper manufacturing.
> ...



Add in the fact of cost as in the trainer costs as much as the blade to make, so to market them at the near same cost also makes it out of the price for the average person to spend. As stated by Bill those who train what they carry is not the large amount of the population.  And those that do think sometimes they could get a second knife versus the trainer.


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## jks9199 (May 20, 2007)

Drac said:


> I think its REAL important to train that way, it only make sense..But what do I know, I'm just a dumb street cop..Now for disarming practice I don't mind using the aluminum fixed blade trainers..The LE community needs a quality folder trainer for realistic training...


The catch is that many, if not most agencies specifically say that any "utility knife" carried by an officer is not carried as a weapon.  An officer that has to fall back on using his utility knife in self defense has to articulate that he didn't have a chance to use a "real" weapon.

I'm not personally aware of any actual incidents where a cop has used a knife defensively; doesn't mean that they don't happen -- just that I haven't heard of them.


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## SFC JeffJ (May 20, 2007)

Drac said:


> Hope you post a picture of it when your're finished...


Hell, I'll send you one Drac, if I ever get anything made that I'm happy with.


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## tshadowchaser (May 20, 2007)

In class Charlie and I may pull out a trainer from anywhere on our body at any time durring the class to keep the students awear of how easily they may be cut in the street. 
No the trainner I use in class is not the weight or exact shape of what I carry but I do try to carry it in the same areas I do my street knife


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## Mr. E (Jun 17, 2007)

One big use of a drone training knife is to test your grip by hitting solid objects. If your hand slips and you end up grasping the blade portion, you drop the knife or you get an injury it is best to learn the weakness in what you are doing _before_ you get into a real situation.

I have drones for just about all of the blades I would probably carry. I even got one knife after finding a really messed up one at a garage sale for about the cost of two newspapers. I liked the feel of the knife so much that I got a new one and ground the messed up blade down for a drone.


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## Josh Oakley (Jun 24, 2007)

My friends and I actually train with the knives we carry. For our daggers, we keep them in the sheaths. For folders, the flat of the blade. For my _curved_ folder, we go real slow. Works out pretty well.


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## Josh Oakley (Jun 24, 2007)

I should note: in general, I would not normally carry a curved folder. In fact, my knife is serrated except for the last centimeter of the blade. It'd be a bloody mess if I ever had to actually use it, but my job requires cutting a lot of rope on a daily basis, and a straight, non-serrated blade (ideal for knife fighting, IMO) is just not practical for rope cutting. I'm not a fan of carrying one utilitarian knife and a second for self defense, so I carry the one. 

But especially for a tactical folder, it's important to train with the knife itself, rather than a copy. I practice draw cuts ad nauseum, and have gotten pretty darn good with a reverse draw cut. Right now, I'm working on a revers draw cut from the pocket position, and it's coming along nicely. I've also incorporated cardboard boxes, so that I'm actually making contact with and _cutting _something. I know a few people that practice draw cuts, but they never actually make contact with anything. This in my opinion is dangerous because you won't know if your angle is correct for making a true cut, and you won't really know if your hand position is correct and that the blade won't fall out of your hand on contact with something.


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