# Knifehand Block or Sudo Makki



## dancingalone (Jul 22, 2010)

So, I was debating with my TKD friend last night about the 'right' way to perform this technique.  In his school, it's invariably practiced along a straight line where the hands chamber towards the rear and then shoot forward with the characteristic open hand position.  I argue that while the chamber position is less important (many styles do it different ways), the motion in which it comes forward and strikes should be a circular one as it travels and then terminates at the bottom of the arc.  My reasoning is that the application is meant to be a chop or slash or even a 2-handed grap or trap, and it's best to get everyone used to this type of motion early on through basics.

Your thoughts?


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## bluekey88 (Jul 22, 2010)

I happen to agree with you.  In fact, in reviewing techniqcal details for the TKD Taeguk poomse...the double knife block/strike is supposed to come around in a slight arc...not shoot out in a straight line.  

It makes sense froma a technical standpoint if you think of the forward hand hitting something and the rear hand trapping someting.  Hell, the long chamber then becomes a parry or redirect settin gup a trap/counter strike.  This wont work with a linear execution of the technique though.

Peace,
Erik


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## Miles (Jul 22, 2010)

I too agree with you.  Interestingly (ok, at least to me), this is called a "side chop" by some groups rather than a knifehand block (or han sonnal makki).  I would also posit that there should also be a rotation of the lower arm (i.e. from elbow to fingertips) to the outside for maximum effect.


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Ditto all above me.


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## Lord-Humongous (Jul 22, 2010)

For us the prep is high and to the rear with the hands coming down to chest level as they move through the block.  Backs of the hand twist 180 degrees through the movement and body to move in sine wave (down - up - down).  I am assuming you are in an L stance for this.  Hands do not move in a circular way in that for the following movement (being same double knife hand block) as you move forward, you do not lower your hands for the prep, they go back up to the rear.  This is the proper ITF way which may well differ if you are in a WTF school.


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

lord-humungous said:


> For us the prep is high and to the rear with the hands coming down to chest level as they move through the block. Backs of the hand twist 180 degrees through the movement and body to move in sine wave (down - up - down). I am assuming you are in an L stance for this. Hands do not move in a circular way in that for the following movement (being same double knife hand block) as you move forward, you do not lower your hands for the prep, they go back up to the rear. This is the proper ITF way which may well differ if you are in a WTF school.


Very much different. The setup is at the opposite side hip, not high. No sine wave as the head must stay level even when traveling. the hand does twist 180 degrees through the movement but it arcs and moves up towards the target.

However if the block is done down or low then the hand sets at the opposite shoulder. Still arcing and twisting but traveling down through the movement. Still the head stays level and you should not bob or sine up and down.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 22, 2010)

Though not stipulated as such, in the Chang Hun system typicaly blocks are designed to damage the attacking limb.  They also tend to start away from your body and move across the body, as opposed to having the hands start close to the body and move away from the body. It is optimal to intercept the limb at a perpendicular angle in order to imact with the most force and create the miost damage. 

With this theory in mind and the concept that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the arc is minimal and virtualy eliminated prior to the point of impact. 

The system does stipulate that the straight motion is used to damage and a circular motion can be used for more of a pushing effect. 

Now, if you alter the application of the technique to be something other than a block, then the method of execution may need to vary as well for optimal effect.


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## ATC (Jul 22, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Though not stipulated as such, in the Chang Hun system typicaly blocks are designed to damage the attacking limb.  They also tend to start away from your body and move across the body, as opposed to having the hands start close to the body and move away from the body. It is optimal to intercept the limb at a perpendicular angle in order to imact with the most force and create the miost damage.
> 
> With this theory in mind and the concept that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, the arc is minimal and virtualy eliminated prior to the point of impact.
> 
> ...


As I agree with you in concept I would have to disagree from a practical stand point, as all blocks need to have some arc as to ensure that you will intercept the on coming technique. The knife hand block done either from the hip or the shoulder would have to arc some as simply going from point A to point B would make the technique almost like trying to punch or spear hand. Thus making intercepting an oncoming punch quite difficult. If you simply attempt a knife hand block you will see that there is a natural arc that is needed to bring the hand from point A to B. Now you can minimize the arc but that would also minimize your possible impact point on the arm or attacking weapon increasing the possibility of missing the block altogether.


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## dortiz (Jul 22, 2010)

Have someone hold your wrist as you do it and you will see why ARC is good and how it may serve an interesting purpose.

; )


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## Balrog (Jul 26, 2010)

When I teach this, I call it 'cleaning the mirror'.

I'll step up close to the mirror, chamber and execute.  The blocking hand should come across, as if you were using your sleeve to wipe a spot off the mirror.  When the students see that and get that visual image, the quality of the block goes up by orders of magnitude.


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## bluekey88 (Jul 26, 2010)

Balrog said:


> When I teach this, I call it 'cleaning the mirror'.
> 
> I'll step up close to the mirror, chamber and execute. The blocking hand should come across, as if you were using your sleeve to wipe a spot off the mirror. When the students see that and get that visual image, the quality of the block goes up by orders of magnitude.


 

i like that.  I'm going to steal that and try it with some of my younger, more "concrete" students.

Peace,
Erik


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 27, 2010)

Balrog said:


> When I teach this, I call it 'cleaning the mirror'.
> 
> I'll step up close to the mirror, chamber and execute. The blocking hand should come across, as if you were using your sleeve to wipe a spot off the mirror. When the students see that and get that visual image, the quality of the block goes up by orders of magnitude.


 
Great description. I hope ATC catches it. This is what i was trying to explain by saying the arc is minimized. Of course there needs to be some, but as you describe, prior to the impact there is no arc for the last part of travel.  If the attack is coming from the front, (which is what the block should be used against) this allows te attacking limb to be intercepted at a perpendicular angle which is optimal for foirce transfer.


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## DMcHenry (Jul 27, 2010)

We chamber with both open hands on the hip/belt, then I like to come up and around forward in an arc for a more circular slightly outward strike/block/release/lock while rotating the palm from facing the body to away.  So yes, I agree with y'all too.


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## ATC (Jul 27, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Great description. I hope ATC catches it. This is what i was trying to explain by saying the arc is minimized. Of course there needs to be some, but as you describe, prior to the impact there is no arc for the last part of travel. If the attack is coming from the front, (which is what the block should be used against) this allows te attacking limb to be intercepted at a perpendicular angle which is optimal for foirce transfer.


Yes I did get it. There is still and arch as your body needs to turn as well on a 30 degree angle forcing the arc. There is not straight line. I think you misinterpreted what is meant by an arc. It is not making a half circle with your arm by no means but you do need to arc as to come around with the body. A straight line block would almost be like tring to catch the punch. You really would be minimizing the interception point.

We may be talking the same thing but just looking at it differently. If I take your mirror cleaning example then I still see an arc. Your forearm would still touch the glass at a point that is away from the punch then move toward the punch as it comes across the mirror. That is how I am seeing it.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 27, 2010)

ATC said:


> We may be talking the same thing but just looking at it differently. If I take your mirror cleaning example then I still see an arc. Your forearm would still touch the glass at a point that is away from the punch then move toward the punch as it comes across the mirror. That is how I am seeing it.


 

Geez, shows how poor the written word can be at describing 3 dimensional motion. Your description is not at all how I picture it.  The attacker's punch is coming thru the glass, toward you breaking thru the glass at a perpendicular angle.  You are facing the glass in an L / Back stance and for example, your right foot is back. Your front / left hand at the end of the motion is traveling along the plane of the mirror more or less parallel  to the floor as if to wipe it, except that your hand may be slightly angled so only the fingeripds would wipe it intercepting the punching arm at a perpendiculoar angle. At no time would your forearm contact the glass. 
  I think there may be different methodoligies employed but they would be simpler to show than describe.


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## ATC (Jul 27, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> Geez, shows how poor the written word can be at describing 3 dimensional motion...


Words leave to much up for interpretations. That is why so many love to read books. Then when the movie is made the see nothing from their interpretation of the book. The director can only give you what he visualized. Also why so many get into trouble when they really meant no harm or offence at all.

Maybe I will shoot my kids doing a single or double knife hand to see if we are on the same page. (I am camera shy
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





).


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## GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS (Jul 24, 2011)

Sudo makki is not a block and all you proffesionals should already know this..it is a throw and been modified and taught as a block...sudo makki is a throw so all instructors please do your research


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## seasoned (Jul 24, 2011)

If you would, point to this research.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 24, 2011)

seasoned said:


> If you would, point to this research.


This. There perhaps could be a different move of the same notion, but the Knife Hand Block is a rather Traditional Technique. Furthermore, its used in numerous Patterns, and not as a throw.
I think Judo teaches a Throw based on it though, which may go back to BEFORE Taekwon-Do, as a seperate thing.
Now, a Knife Hand Block can be switched into a Grab of a Front Kick, but thats a whole other Technique, which merely depends on the Initial Knife Hand Block to initiate.
Its like calling the Spear Finger Thrust in Do-San a Release from a Grab, simply because it is proceeded by it.

If there is Evidence stating that the Traditional Knife Hand Low Block in Taekwon-Do is a Throw, im all ears.


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## GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS (Jul 24, 2011)

once you get to a masters level in korean karate you will be of the knowledge about basics and blocks..sudo makki is definatley a throw that has been miseducated to students and handan makki is actually a strike not a block...


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## jks9199 (Jul 24, 2011)

Simply announcing that "when you know enough, you will know" isn't enough.  Posts on MT aren't Twitter feeds; I've never seen anyone hit a "too long" limit on a post.  Expand on your statements; how is sudo makki a throw?  Is it always a throw, or are there times it really IS a block?  Or even a strike?  How is handan makki a strike?

By the way... You might consider stopping by the Meet & Greet and introducing yourself.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 24, 2011)

GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS said:


> once you get to a masters level in korean karate you will be of the knowledge about basics and blocks..sudo makki is definatley a throw that has been miseducated to students and handan makki is actually a strike not a block...


The Forearm Blocks in Taekwon-Do are very, very close to the Forearm Strikes in other Martial Arts.
Therefore they are Variations of those.

Taekwon-Do is not Korean Karate.
What may be used in one way in one, is not going to be identical in another.
Miseducated =/= Altered; Otherwise every offspring of Karate is a Miseducation of the Oldest Forms of Karate.
And Boxing is a Miseducation of Pugilism.
And Jab Punches which dont use the Bottom Three Knuckles are a Miseducation of Jab Punches.



jks9199 said:


> Simply announcing that "when you know enough, you  will know" isn't enough.  Posts on MT aren't Twitter feeds; I've never  seen anyone hit a "too long" limit on a post.  Expand on your  statements; how is sudo makki a throw?  Is it always a throw, or are  there times it really IS a block?  Or even a strike?  How is handan  makki a strike?


Low Forearm Blocks are a Block based on a Striking Method. Im sure some people would simply teach it as a Strike which ultimately Blocks most of the time, unless it is used on a Lowered Target.
Much in the same way, Low Knife Hand Blocks can be transitioned into a Throw, and perhaps it originally was entirely a Throw.
But saying it is Miseducated because it is also used as a Block, is covered above.


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## granfire (Jul 24, 2011)

well it's too early to picture it just yet...

but generally speaking, thee is a lot of misconception going on as to the purpose of a technique as it is placed in a form.
A strike an be a block and vice versa, as well as turning (in case of the open hand strikes/blocks) into a grab, which in turn can lead to a trow...

it is not so much taught in TKD as it is in Hanmudo for example: One situation can turn into several different scenarios, the ground is not not static and the technique is flowing.
this comes to mind as I ahve been taught strikes and blocks in similar fashion with actually no difference except in name:both have a circular motion (spear hands excluded) and the twist in the wrist/fore arm.

It seems to me that especially the open hand techniques are void of meaning in modern TKD, the application is lacking and most modern practitioners are a bit soft on the hand's edge...

Seems to me there is a connection to the guard position of the free hand in sticks (as taught by the ITA...I'm not versed in what the real stick people do) which is somewhat a 'prayer' position in front of the sternum, ready to grab either your own stick to enforce it ot the opponent's to block or disarm...


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## GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS (Jul 24, 2011)

handan makki is a strike . when a kick comes in you strike the inner thigh or the calf...have someone stand in front of you and do a front kick .strike the leg with a handan makki..as with most blocks that we learn as a beginner we think " how will that work or how will that block work in reality" well try using handan makki as a strike in training (one steps) with a partner and you will realise and believe. when i trained in korea to improve my knowledge and instructing i was given these secrets.i have studied korean karate and wooden weapons for 27 years and there are many things we get taught in the uk that are not true . but when you reach 2nd dan and above you should know this.i have been instructing korean karate for 18 yrs now and have travelled the world to perfect this..instructors teach what they know but this doesnt mean it is right..if you go to korea and train with a master then the knowledge you obtain will be more true than what an english instructor will tell you...(agree?)


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## GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS (Jul 24, 2011)

sorry cyriacus for being arogant but korean karate should always stay as it originally was...i did get my knowledge from a korean master when i was out there training. so i have been taught the original ways..if they have been changed or adapted over the years then it is not quite true anymore..never fix something that isnt broken!!


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## Cyriacus (Jul 24, 2011)

GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS said:


> sorry cyriacus for being arogant but korean karate should always stay as it originally was...i did get my knowledge from a korean master when i was out there training. so i have been taught the original ways..if they have been changed or adapted over the years then it is not quite true anymore..never fix something that isnt broken!!


Your logic is still flawed, given that this is Not Korean Karate. As such, Korean Karate is unchanged, and claiming otherwise ignores countless practical contradictions.
One might say dont fix what isnt broken - But what if neither system is broken, and both systems work just fine? Despite the alteration, TKD is distinguished from Korean Karate as a different Martial Art.

Itd be like trying to tell a Boxer he needs to clinch and use elbows more, just because thats how it originally was, before it was changed into the Boxing we all know today.
That uses gloves, instead of bare knuckles.
And both the new and old methods work just fine.

Korean Karate is a conceptual base of TKD, but for the same reasons Kajukenbo can function without exactly copying Judo, Ju-Jutsu, Tang Soo Do, Kenpo Karate, Eskrima, Boxing, and Kung Fu; Taekwon-Do can function without exactly copying its roots.

This discussion is quite odd, really. What your trying to communicate is that youve gone into the Taekwon-Do Forum, and said that a Technique is being Miseducated because it isnt being taught the same way as Korean Karate.
Again, Jab Punches with the Bottom Three Knuckles, with the Fist Vertical. One of the oldest Techniques in the World.


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## andyjeffries (Jul 25, 2011)

Guys, don't feed the troll...


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 25, 2011)

GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS said:


> korean karate should always stay as it originally was...i did get my knowledge from a korean master when i was out there training.



The term "Original Korean Karate" is an oxymoron.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 25, 2011)

GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS said:


> .i have studied korean karate and wooden weapons for 27 years ........................i have been instructing korean karate for 18 yrs now......................if you go to korea and train with a master then the knowledge you obtain will be more true than what an english instructor will tell you...(agree?)



I wish I was training for 27 years and teaching for 18. That would make me at leat 13 years younger than I am now. 

There are many senior Korean instructors outside Korea (can't speak for the UK, but certainly here in the USA).  No need to go there to get old versions of the "Real" stuff.


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## Grenadier (Jul 25, 2011)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this conversation civil, and on-topic.  

Thank you.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## SahBumNimRush (Jul 25, 2011)

First, I would like to address the OP, since I'm arriving a bit late to the discussion.

I agree with Dancing on this.  Even within TKD, there are many variations of the chamber and wrap up, and I can be convinced that all have a logical justification.  Particularly when it comes to Boon Hae, different chambers work in different scenarios.  The execution of the movement should be relatively universal though; leading with the waist and elbow, then the dropping of the elbow to create the arcing end movement.  I use the term "movement" because of its broad application, SooDo Makki can be used effectively as strike, block or throw, with or without elements of trapping, locking, and elbow striking.  

IMHO, if you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to be only a throw.  Then your proverbial cup is too full.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 25, 2011)

I am in no position to tell anyone what a move in TKD is.  I can say that in the Hapkido I was taught, there is a technique where a hand strike is blocked with the same (that is left block to right strike) side hand (as one steps sideways into the attack with the opposite foot) which is slid down the arm.  The blocking hand and the opposite hand then grab then grab the skin of the forearm and biceps as tightly as posible, and a hip throw or low shoulder throw is executed as one continues a turning motion.  Properly done it is a painful and violent manouver.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jul 25, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> I am in no position to tell anyone what a move in TKD is.  I can say that in the Hapkido I was taught, there is a technique where a hand strike is blocked with the same (that is left block to right strike) side hand (as one steps sideways into the attack with the opposite foot) which is slid down the arm.  The blocking hand and the opposite hand then grab then grab the skin of the forearm and biceps as tightly as posible, and a hip throw or low shoulder throw is executed as one continues a turning motion.  Properly done it is a painful and violent manouver.



I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."  I cannot say whether or not this is something prevalent in other schools, but my sahbumnim always stressed that no one person or art "owns a a technique."  If you understand the movement and incorporate it into your repertoire,  then it is as much your art (Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo in my particular case) as it is any other art.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 25, 2011)

>>>IMHO, if you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to be only a throw. Then your proverbial cup is too full. I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th DanS.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> >>>IMHO, if you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to be only a throw. Then your proverbial cup is too full. I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th DanS.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy



Did you intend to add something here?  Or maybe you are trying to show a contradiction?  I can see where that could be a possible intention.  I wasn't entirely sure what he meant, but I thought SaBumNinRush was trying to say one should have options when a punch is defended against, and not always expect to use only one defense.  I would agree that once commiting to a block and throw, since you are stepping in (at least as I learned it), you don't have many other options.  Perhaps he will be kind enough to clarify for both of us.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jul 25, 2011)

oftheherd1 said:


> Did you intend to add something here?  Or maybe you are trying to show a contradiction?  I can see where that could be a possible intention.  I wasn't entirely sure what he meant, but I thought SaBumNinRush was trying to say one should have options when a punch is defended against, and not always expect to use only one defense.  I would agree that once commiting to a block and throw, since you are stepping in (at least as I learned it), you don't have many other options.  Perhaps he will be kind enough to clarify for both of us.



I don't believe I was being contradictory in my two statements, let me try to be more clear.  My initial statement was that SooDo Makki has many applications, including block, strike, throw, with or without the use of trapping, locking, or elbow strike.  Depending on the situation one movement can have many applications.

The second statement that I made was in response to offtheherds Hapkido experience of the same movement.  Although we teach the basic explanation of SooDo Makki as a block, we do use it as a throw as well.  

I can see how it could be taken as contradictory since both statements were referring to the use of the movement as a throw, but I was trying to highlight that oftheherd's Hapkido experience of the movement as a throw is one of the ways I utilize the movement, but not the only application that we teach.  I am sure others here have similar experiences with multiple applications of the same movement, and that is what I'm trying to shed some light on.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jul 25, 2011)

I don't have any videos of me performing applications/uses of the movement in question, so I went to the all mighty tube.. . I am not endorsing these, as they are not exactly what I practice, but to illustrate my point of versatility, a quick youtube search shows many different applications of this movement.


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 25, 2011)

I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."
&#12288;
Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th Dan
S.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy<<
Sorry, only part of my post made it. The above should be read, re- read and read again. 
The so called "real applications" trend are a flavor of the month. Rick Clark notes in his real applications book that he has no idea what the real applications are. That was lost in antiquity (though some texts like Bubishi are around). He only notes that the applications he provides really work. His "75 Down Block" book contains numerous applications. Are all, none, or some real? Or, perhaps that focus is too narrow. 
As General Choi notes, the most important training secret is to know the purpose / application of the technique. Yet that is only part of what he says. He often shows more than one application and states that you must understand the distance and angle. This is not a new concept ("Wax on Wax Off"). The goal is proper motion. 
Toward that end knowing an application is but one tool in helping you understand the motion, and that is the point. The applications help you learn how to move in an efficient, well balanced and powerful manner. Once this is learned the motion can be utilized in any number of ways limited only by practical considerations. ("Pick up Jacket, put on jacket...")
Yet we still need to be careful that we are not so heavenly minded we ain&#8217;t no earthly good. 
_"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick._
_After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick._
_Now that I _understand_ the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."_
-- Bruce Lee


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## SahBumNimRush (Jul 25, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have seen and used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses of this "movement."
> &#12288;
> Dr. Benjamin Rush, 5th Dan
> S.H. Kang's Tae Kwon Do Academy<<
> ...



There is a lot of truth in what you are saying Mr. Weiss.  There is a huge difference between impractical/complex applications and applications that are efficient and effective.  It is easy to see many who over complicate things, many who intellectualize things.  I do not have "75 applications for a block to the down,"  but I do have more than one use for that motion.  If we use your example of a text that illustrates these different movements, the Bubishi, it clearly shows that what *some *schools teach as a block have other uses.  

I would like to say that I'm not a Boon Hae/Bunkai crazy guy, but it is something that can connect what many already teach as "self-defense" with the hyung/kata, and in doing so you can enlighten yourself on why the wraps, preparations, stacks, etc. are supposed to be executed as they are. * It validates the mechanics of the movements themselves.  *

It may be more difficult for derive this from the "modern" forms, but since my association practices the old Karate form sets, we have a template to go on.  There has been discussion here previously on whether or not the pioneers of TKD created the new hyungs/poomsae with varying depths of application in mind.  I will admit that some may be reverse engineering applications to movements, but if it is efficient and effective is there really anything detrimental to that?


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## Earl Weiss (Jul 26, 2011)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I will admit that some may be reverse engineering applications to movements, but if it is efficient and effective is there really anything detrimental to that?



If it is efficient and effective, then it is a "Real Application".


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## GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS (Jul 27, 2011)

DONT TELL ME WHAT I AM TRYING TO COMMUNICATE......i just know what i know and was just trying to help out anyone that cares....."never doubt he who has nothing to gain from saying something." sorry if i have offended anyone ive not been on forums before, maybe i should keep my thoughts to myself in future...enjoy martial arts everyone and relax a little. stress must be expelled straight away.


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## DMcHenry (Jul 27, 2011)

For our example, if I use a &#8220;knifehand block&#8221; as a block, then the technique is a block.  If I use it as a wrist release, then that technique is a wrist release.  If I use it as a strike, then it&#8217;s a strike.  If I use it as an arm lock, then that&#8217;s what it is.

I feel it&#8217;s a bit self-limiting to pigeon hole any particular technique as &#8220;it&#8217;s a block&#8221; or &#8220;there are no blocks, only strikes&#8221;.   It&#8217;s just a particular technique that can be used in multiple ways.  If you use it as a throw, then it&#8217;s a throw at that moment, not a block.  But of course there can be many other uses for the same physical movement/technique.

&#8220;Free your mind&#8221;   (Morpheus to Neo in The Matrix)


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## jks9199 (Jul 27, 2011)

GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS said:


> DONT TELL ME WHAT I AM TRYING TO COMMUNICATE......i just know what i know and was just trying to help out anyone that cares....."never doubt he who has nothing to gain from saying something." sorry if i have offended anyone ive not been on forums before, maybe i should keep my thoughts to myself in future...enjoy martial arts everyone and relax a little. stress must be expelled straight away.



Your manner came across a bit abruptly and kind of condescendingly.  It's important to remember that, on a message board, we are limited to text and words -- but most of our communication is non-verbal in reality.  So we lose a whole lot when we don't have the tone of voice or expression or body language.  Something else to remember here is that you don't know who you're talking to, and saying things like "when you're a master, you'll know..." can be more than a little condescending -- especially if you're actually talking to someone who's 5th, 6th dan... or higher.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 27, 2011)

GENIUS MARTIAL ARTS said:


> DONT TELL ME WHAT I AM TRYING TO COMMUNICATE......i just know what i know and was just trying to help out anyone that cares....."never doubt he who has nothing to gain from saying something." sorry if i have offended anyone ive not been on forums before, maybe i should keep my thoughts to myself in future...enjoy martial arts everyone and relax a little. stress must be expelled straight away.


By completely denying that a Technique can be used in several ways, and declaring two Martial Arts to be the same?
Your intentions may have been good, but your delivery was quite bad.
And there is still a slight blend of logical contradiction (Such as, Original Korean Karate, given that Original Karate is not Korean, and as such, Original Karate was changed, to form Korean Karate, which you now wish unchanged; Which was to a minor extent used to form Taekwon-Do, to which the same arguement of acceptance made by Korean Karate to Original Karate can be made.) and a lack of open-mindedness (Pretty much the way you said "This is the only way to do it, because thats how weve learnt that it was always done, and anything else is miseducation".).

Noone was trying to tell you what you were trying to Communicate. They were having a conversation about the Topic you started. And it just so happens that what they were trying to say, is different to what you were trying to say. They were stating their opinions, and discussing those. Not discussing yours.
And in closure;
"If you position yourself into the hard stance of the movement HAVING to  be only a throw. Then your proverbial cup is too full. I have seen and  used this technique in class, and it only illustrates the various uses  of this "movement.

And i for one, was never anything other than quite Calm. I saw noone here get Tense.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jul 27, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> So, I was debating with my TKD friend last night about the 'right' way to perform this technique.  In his school, it's invariably practiced along a straight line where the hands chamber towards the rear and then shoot forward with the characteristic open hand position.  I argue that while the chamber position is less important (many styles do it different ways), the motion in which it comes forward and strikes should be a circular one as it travels and then terminates at the bottom of the arc.  My reasoning is that the application is meant to be a chop or slash or even a 2-handed grap or trap, and it's best to get everyone used to this type of motion early on through basics.
> 
> Your thoughts?



Good question.  

Let's look at it from two perspectives; power and speed.

From the perspective of power, an arc motion will build more momentum and therefore will execute with more power on target.  Generally speaking, depending on the target struck, it will be a harder and therefore more damaging strike.  It is however, slower as it has to travel through a longer amount of space before reaching its target.  The arc-motion strike (be it a knife hand or ridge hand) is best left for a finishing strike after the attacker his been stunned by a previous strike or is not facing you directly (and therefore in a position to intercept, block or move away from the strike).  It is a strike that is by its design telegraphed to the attacker.

From the perspective of speed, the linear knife hand is faster to deliver on target.  The shortest distance between two points is a straight line.  It is easier to use as a frontal, first strike as it has less distance to travel, is harder to intercept or move away from and can be delivered from far more angles than the arc-strike.  Although perhaps not as powerful as the arc-strike, since it is faster it is very possible to deliver more than one strike in the same amount of time thus negating this slight disadvantage.  And again, depending upon target location, it may not make much of a difference in the long run.

Also consider a linear forearm strike as well in place of the linear knife hand strike.  Larger surface area striking the target with the same speed but greater momentum.


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## Spookey (Jul 31, 2011)

> Yes I did get it.  There is still and arch as your body needs to turn as well on a 30  degree angle forcing the arc. There is not straight line. I think you  misinterpreted what is meant by an arc. It is not making a half circle  with your arm by no means but you do need to arc as to come around with  the body. A straight line block would almost be like tring to catch the  punch. You really would be minimizing the interception point.
> 
> We may be talking  the same thing but just looking at it differently. If I take your  mirror cleaning example then I still see an arc. Your forearm would  still touch the glass at a point that is away from the punch then move  toward the punch as it comes across the mirror. That is how I am seeing  it.



I would be interested to see the comparison made in video format...at the end of the day (without regard to the high vs low chamber position) the primary blocking limb will be traveling from one side of the body to the other, this requires some arching motion, as the blocking limb crosses from one shoulder line to the other. Without it you would be executing a flat or straight "spearhand". Something to this effect was already mentioned.

The more i perceive it, the more I would use the term straight line arch (oxymoron I know) as separate from the older Karate circular delivery.

I am interested to hear more, and possibly see a video presentation of the opposing opinions!


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