# EPAK and Kyusho



## Kyoshi (Aug 12, 2009)

What are you guys oppinion on this - my 6th senses tells me its hot topic, but i know George Dillman and Parker trained with each other.

Along with that, i have many positional recognition to whereas blocks and strikes could and or will be targeted to pressure/kyusho/dimmak points and could cause knockouts.

I've trained kyusho for now 3-4 years and recently i started doing EPAK (only learned the first 10(13) techniques(Plans lineage)) 

-Kyoshi


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 12, 2009)

Kyoshi said:


> What are you guys oppinion on this - my 6th senses tells me its hot topic, but i know George Dillman and Parker trained with each other.
> 
> Along with that, i have many positional recognition to whereas blocks and strikes could and or will be targeted to pressure/kyusho/dimmak points and could cause knockouts.
> 
> ...


Mr. Parker felt that strong basics are the best foundation and that nerve srtikes were specialized moves to be considered once a foundation is already present.
Sean


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## Kyoshi (Aug 13, 2009)

But is this taught on today?


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2009)

Kyoshi said:


> What are you guys oppinion on this - my 6th senses tells me its hot topic, but i know George Dillman and Parker trained with each other.
> 
> Along with that, i have many positional recognition to whereas blocks and strikes could and or will be targeted to pressure/kyusho/dimmak points and could cause knockouts.
> 
> ...


 
Hopefully Doc or Dr. Dave will chime in on this, seeing that they're in SL4.  To answer your question, is this taught today.....it might be, but how in-depth it is, I couldn't tell you.  Alot of the Kenpo black belts that I train with, are also Arnis black belts.  George Dillman and Remy Presas, along with Wally Jay, not only trained together, but also conducted seminars with each other, so alot of Dillmans theory rubs off not only during Arnis sessions, but also some Kenpo sessions as well.  

I'm not into it nearly as much as others, however, I do agree with what TOD said....focus on the basics, which is the foundation, first, then work on the pressure point applications.


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## mwd0818 (Aug 13, 2009)

It varies widely based on instructors and lineage - some work it in from the beginning, some wait, and others don't know anything more than "hit the guy here really hard . . . it hurts."  I would say all approaches have some value.  Doc, with the SL-4 curriculum, really gets into strong foundations and advanced theories pretty quick from what I've seen and heard.  I didn't start really learning much on pressure points until post-Sandan training, so it does vary widely.

My overall opinion on pressure points:

If you can show me something that makes something hurt more, cause more damage, etc., then sure, but it better not violate any basic principles nor should it compromise my defense.  In other words, I'm not going to try a fingertip strike to the back of the elbow while leaving my guard down and rely on that knocking him out.  If I can incorporate it into structurally sound techniques that work without it, even better.  (And the majority of techniques can work this way, you just have to look).


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## Milt G. (Aug 17, 2009)

Kyoshi said:


> What are you guys oppinion on this - my 6th senses tells me its hot topic, but i know George Dillman and Parker trained with each other.
> 
> Along with that, i have many positional recognition to whereas blocks and strikes could and or will be targeted to pressure/kyusho/dimmak points and could cause knockouts.
> 
> ...


 
Hello,
Ed Parker and George Dillman did "work out" some in the early days.  There was not much, in general, out there at the time.  Many of the top stylists from different systems in the 60's had some "exchanges".   I think they exchanged some ideas, but Parker did not study Kyusho-Jitsu (sp?) and Dillman was not really a Kenpo man.  Some kept, and taught, certain aspects of another's style that they learned and some did not.
The nerve striking and pressure point theories have always been there.  Some emphasize them more then others.  I think Dillman leaned more towards traditional Japanese martial arts.  As there were many "players" in the arena, he specialized in the nerve center and pressure point aspects.  That set him apart, a bit, from some of the other Japanese stylists of the time.
If broken down enough, almost any martial art will have similarity to others.  At the basis, the basics, there is only so many ways to punch and kick.  And only so many effective targets for same.  Different "soups" with similar "flavors".  Perhaps the ingredients are to blame?  
Thank you,
Milt G.


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## silvestre (Sep 6, 2009)

i said

AMERICAN KENPO FOR EVER

best regards


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## Milt G. (Sep 7, 2009)

silvestre said:


> i said
> 
> AMERICAN KENPO FOR EVER
> 
> best regards


 
Hello,
I assume you think American Kenpo is tops?

It is a great art, as is Tracy's and many of the Kenpo related arts.

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## suicide (Oct 5, 2009)

silvestre said:


> i said
> 
> AMERICAN KENPO FOR EVER
> 
> best regards


 
? :whip: whats the dilly ...


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## silvestre (Oct 11, 2009)

AMERICAN KENPO is AMERICAN KENPO

best regards

silvestre


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## Milt G. (Oct 11, 2009)

silvestre said:


> AMERICAN KENPO is AMERICAN KENPO
> 
> best regards
> 
> silvestre


 
Hello,

An astute observation, to say the least...

I wish lima beans were NOT lima beans...  

Thanks,
Milt G.


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## Kyoshi (Mar 12, 2010)

Please stop spamming my thread

and back to topic - Now i've learned the 10 + 16 + 16 techniqeus + some loose ones... 

ALL (90%) of them contains targets closely related to kyusho....

No one here with anything regarding this topic?


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## chaos1551 (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm not sure what your OP is getting at.  I understand the basics of pressure points and nerve centers, but don't all martial arts exploit these locations?  For example, you don't target the forehead you target the jaw or throat.  You don't target the front of a bent knee you target the groin.  And you only aim for targets that either present themselves to you or that you manipulate to be presented.

Perhaps my instructor works all that into Kenpo from the beginning.  My training is focused heavily on self-defense and I'm taught that when you actually get to the rare point where you have to physically defend yourself, it's not a game and you need to quickly incapacitate your opponent with damaging techniques and tactics.  

My instructor says that the closed fist is the sign of a kung fu novice and the open fist is the sign of a kung fu master (he has a bit of a sense of humor, but what he infers is that someone who is out to survive a real fight will claw, rip and shred, e.g. bear and tiger claw attacks, more than worrying about punches).  You survive by being stronger, smarter and more vicious than your opponent, and you win by stopping your opponent from seeing, breathing or walking.

Squeeze/twist nerve centers, vice down on testicles, pull/rip hair, ram your elbow into throats, go for the eyes (like in episode 81!)--or am I missing something?


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## searcher (Mar 12, 2010)

Kyoshi-My EPAK instructor does not teach SL4 or the pressure points, but the techniques lend to their use quite well.     I am always amazed at how the techniques have the PP built right in.    Having come back to Kenpo after a long hiatus and having exposure to Kyusho elsewhere has really opened my eyes to the brilliant mind of Mr. Parker.


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## DavidCC (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi Kyoshi, are you with Kyusho International?  Good group. 

I have seen a few EPKK guys in KI but not many.  Most EPKK people believe they have everything they need within their school and so spend little time looking outwards.  This is an over-generalization of course and I'm sure I have just offended many friends but it's my opinion.  BUt I think that is why EPKK is not much seen in KI.

The SL-4 system does incorporate this material but it is not something you can separate from their system and add to yours.  

Short of finding an SL-4 teacher in Europe (hard to do) I would suggest continuing to diligently train your EPKK and then find a KI instructor (easy to do in Europe) to give you some extra knowledge on pressure points.

http://www.kyusho.com/KIdir/europe.htm
http://www.martialscienceuniversity.com/
http://www.sl4europe.com/


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## Kyoshi (Mar 16, 2010)

Hi David

Thanks for the reply.

I started with KI, in 2005, but they split with out country -political reasons-and in 2006 we formed KD (kyusho denmark) where i have been training ever since - im also an instructor there. I travel also to the seminar that KI holds around the world ( mostly northern europe ).

What is your experience with KI and EPAK ? I agree with you that EPAK has "everything"  - they do have alot, but my kenpo teacher also neglects the use of kyusho integrated into EPAK.

Thanks - Nikolaj


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