# kenpo



## Hanzo04

What makes kenpo a martial art and how effective is it? i only ask this question because me and my brother had an argument if it is or isn't a MA. i think it is a martial art but i couldn't back it up since i don't practice kenpo. so can someone justify me please? and by the way he was saying that kenpo was just street fighting and that it is nothing compared to kung fu. try not to be to harsh on him. lol!


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpo is more of a way of thinking. We like to say Martial arts are what you do when your kenpo fails. In this context Kenpo is just another word for logic; however this is not everyones understanding and kenpo stylists are without a doubt practicing a unique and very recognizable martial art that is based on logic. However not all kenpo is logical because each practitioner brings his own shortcommings to any situation and that person may choose to kick on a gravely surface just as quick as a TKD person might and that would be illogical. Do we call what he did not kenpo, or do we simply say that that particular practitioner lacked principles and experience? As for your brother, I would let him know that these words get lost in translation and Kung Fu is just another way of articulating a "mastery" of about anything: cooks, florists, reapulsterers, you name it.
Sean


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## bzarnett

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> What makes kenpo a martial art and how effective is it? i only ask this question because me and my brother had an argument if it is or isn't a MA. i think it is a martial art but i couldn't back it up since i don't practice kenpo. so can someone justify me please? and by the way he was saying that kenpo was just street fighting and that it is nothing compared to kung fu. try not to be to harsh on him. lol!


Kung Fu in regards to martial arts, can be used to denote a system of pure fighting or a system of self-improvement. More correctly. Kung Fu is any system that takes time and effort to achieve proficiency in. Fut Gar Kung Fu is a pure fighting system - no moral philosophy. Hsing-I Ch'uan on the other hand has a strong moral and philosophical foundation based on the Tao. The term Kung Fu does not denote philosophy or the enlightened little sage on the mountain.

Kenpo comes in many forms. Some are not practical for self-defense while others are very efficient self-defense forms. Since this is in the EPAK section, I would have to say that the approach to Kenpo makes it a competant system of fighting. Individuals like Mike Pick have used it in the military, while I know several police officers throughout the US that have used it effectivly in the line of work. 

American Kenpo Karate itself contains a deeply moral and philosophical foundation regarding personal development and refinement. One only needs to examine the Kenpo Creed, aspects of the Zen of Kenpo, or the teaching approach of Kenpo to see that it offers both sides of the picture - the scholar and the warrior.

Regardless, the competance of American Kenpo lies in the individual - the teacher and the student. How we train will demonstrate how effective we are in using the art. Mr. Rebello is an excellent well-rounded practitioner of the art with the philosophy and the fighting skills. Mr. Skip Hancock is another fine example. On the other hand I have seen people who can do the show, but have no substance or practical skill. It's about attitude and the approach to training.

I've been recently using the following definition to describe Kenpo. Kenpo is...

1. The development of attitude, logic, basics, and fitness to reach new levels of refinement.

2. Taking care of your concerns in regards to environment, predicament, and individuals within your sphere of influence

3. Being Neutral to your environment, predicament, and individuals within your sphere of influence

-----
Bryan Zarnett
www.SphereOfInfluence.ca


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## tsunami

"When pure knuckles meets pure flesh, its pure martial arts." I belive Mr. Parker said something close to that. Question, what does your brother consider as criteria for qualifing or disqualifing any system as a MA? As far as effectiveness of any art. Its is the man who makes the art. A good man in a poor art could still do well. All arts have flaws.  Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills. I do Kali for weapons and would like to do ground fighting. I have tried several other styles and I must confess, I am a Kenpo/Kali addict and would not waste my time if I thought it was lame.


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## Gin-Gin

tsunami said:
			
		

> "When pure knuckles meets pure flesh, its pure martial arts." I belive Mr. Parker said something close to that. Question, what does your brother consider as criteria for qualifing or disqualifing any system as a MA? As far as effectiveness of any art. Its is the man who makes the art. A good man in a poor art could still do well. All arts have flaws.  Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills. I do Kali for weapons and would like to do ground fighting. I have tried several other styles and I must confess, I am a Kenpo/Kali addict and would not waste my time if I thought it was lame.



Actually, I believe the saying is: "There are no pure styles of Karate.  Purity comes only when pure knuckles meet pure flesh no matter who delivers or receives."   I agree with you, how well the person trains will decide how effective their art will be.  In Vol. I of Infinite Insights into Kenpo, Mr. Parker said: "the truth for both lies in the actual moment of combat."

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:


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## kenpoworks

"martial" Pertaining To War.

"art" ....a Form Of Expression...

Kenpo Could Fulfil One Of Both Of These Criteria At A Given Time.


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## Doc

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> "martial" Pertaining To War.
> 
> "art" ....a Form Of Expression...
> 
> Kenpo Could Fulfil One Of Both Of These Criteria At A Given Time.


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## Doc

tsunami said:
			
		

> ".....Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills....


Please make an attempt to not characterize all Kenpo based on the limitations of your personal knowledge, skills, and instructions you have received. There are many who have been taught, and address these issues, myself included. Painting such a large body of information that emcompasses so many decades, teachers, students, and interpretations with your personall broad stroke of understanding is counter-productive in discussions.

Thanks


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

tsunami
Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills. .[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I have to agree with the post above, it's only your limits that limit what Kenpo is and does. If you feel it lacks, then look no further than yourself or your lineage. If you don't like it, get out of it. If you seek it, you will find it. I don't appreciate you giving Kenpo such a limited perspective because of your own.
> 
> DarK LorD


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## MJS

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> tsunami
> Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills. .[/QUOTE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to agree with the post above, it's only your limits that limit what Kenpo is and does. If you feel it lacks, then look no further than yourself or your lineage. If you don't like it, get out of it. If you seek it, you will find it. I don't appreciate you giving Kenpo such a limited perspective because of your own.
> 
> DarK LorD
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ditto!!
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


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## Bill Lear

tsunami said:
			
		

> Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills.



I 100% DISAGREE WITH YOU.  

Here are a couple of Ed Parker quotes that you seem to have missed:

"Positive innovations are imminent when you keep an open mind." 

"Don't look for answers beyond your realm of understanding, for more often than not, many answers are before you that have been overlooked."


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## parkerkarate

Kenpo is made up of three styles of fighting, two of which are martial arts. It is made of Kung-Fu, Jujitsu, and boxing. As I see it as long as you are munipulating a person, while using kicks, punches, and ect... that makes it a martial art.  As I see it Kenpo is very effective because there is just not one way of moving. After learning all our techniques you can improvise. When you are on the street and some guy throws a right punch at you, you are not going to think, OK Five Swords. You might use part of it, but the guy id just not going to stand there and take it, he will move and you will have to move wit him. Lets take a look at Kung-Fu, big circular movements right, now take the extensions to most of these techniques, BIG CIRCULAR MOVEMENTS just like Kung-Fu. Plus take a look at Mr. Parkers books, there you will see what kenpo is really made of.


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## parkerkarate

_Originally Posted by tsunami
Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills_

If it lacks wrestling skill than how come we are putting the guy to the ground most of the time? Yes, we do not have many nife and gun techniques, but take a look at all our club techniques. Plus all our knife and gun techniques are for higher belt levels, which means by that time they should be able to figure out what to do with a gun or knife. 

I do not mean to be rude but unless people can really back up what they are saying than they should not be posting stuff. I did not spend 8 years learning all of this to just read what some people say to "put down" kenpo. If you ask me unless you are in kenpo or know anything about it you have no right to talk bad about it.


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## pete

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> _Originally Posted by tsunami
> Kenpo lacks wrestling skills and weapons skills_
> 
> ...you have no right to talk bad about it.


i don't think he's talking bad about it, just with limited information.  my information is similarly limited but that will change because my mind is open, and i'll seek the answers. truthfully, we practice many techniques that take down the attacker, and some that have us down while the attacker remains up... but how many and which ones specifically place us (the defender) on the ground with the attacker?  

No doc and dark lord, this is not for you guys (yet)... i'm sure you have stuff outside the norm...



			
				parkerkarate said:
			
		

> now take the extensions to most of these techniques, BIG CIRCULAR MOVEMENTS.


not the way i've learned them... circular yes, but tight rather than big...

pete


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## parkerkarate

OK my man you got me there, the only techniques that I know so far when we are on the ground would be Ecounter with Danger, and Bowing to Buddah. But neither of these techniques are ground techniques for two people. I did not mean to come out being mean at all, just an early morning with a stupid Bio test. Sometimes college can get to you.


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## parkerkarate

If you do not mind, could you tell me what belt you are. I am a little confused. of your style and level. I do not mean to be rude.


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## parkerkarate

If you can take a look at Mr. Parker doing techniques and see how he moves than you will see wher I am coming from with the whole circular movements and Kung-Fu.


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## pete

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> If you can take a look at Mr. Parker doing techniques and see how he moves than you will see wher I am coming from with the whole circular movements and Kung-Fu.



Its not the circular movements being challenged, but the emphasis on BIG.

I try to keep most of my circles in the techniques and extensions smaller and tighter by locking and controling joints in sequence, thereby needing less motion and exposure on my part to manipulate my attacker.  

If you mean BIG circles for continuous striking sequences, i still try to keep them small, more as a natural flow from changes in stance driven by the hips than as BIG circular arm movements.

Where do you see advantages or applications of BIG circles in kenpo... they are there and have their place, just that i don't see them as prevalent as smaller tighter circles.

thanks for the conversation...

pete


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## parkerkarate

No problem. I like these kinds of conversations.

hmmmmm, lets go out on a limb here, Thundering Hammer, all of those hammer fists. They are all circular, but not outragously big. But it is true, what you said about tightening up those circles, I do the same thing, it creates more speed and power.


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## tsunami

geez you guys are uptight. To most people kenpo is a hand art. You can extraplelate ground applications and I will not get out of Kenpo because I love it and still have alot to explore. This however does not make Kenpo the best wrestling stye known to man. Nor is Kenpo a highly weapon oriented art as is Kali. 

George


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

tsunami said:
			
		

> geez you guys are uptight. To most people kenpo is a hand art. You can extraplelate ground applications and I will not get out of Kenpo because I love it and still have alot to explore. This however does not make Kenpo the best wrestling stye known to man. Nor is Kenpo a highly weapon oriented art as is Kali.
> 
> George


 

 Either find another art, or find another instructor that will show you what Kenpo is to alot of us, and quit going on about your lack of motivation and/or training, alot of us don't have the problem YOU seem to have.


DarK LorD


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## tsunami

Either find another art, or find another instructor that will show you what Kenpo is to alot of us, and quit going on about your lack of motivation and/or training, alot of us don't have the problem YOU seem to have.


DarK LorD


I guess that personaly attacking me works better than giving me a good example of how YOU would use a kenpo tech on the ground. I may lack knowlage but that is about it. 

Have a super day.


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## Doc

tsunami said:
			
		

> geez you guys are uptight. To most people kenpo is a hand art. You can extraplelate ground applications and I will not get out of Kenpo because I love it and still have alot to explore. This however does not make Kenpo the best wrestling stye known to man. Nor is Kenpo a highly weapon oriented art as is Kali.
> 
> George



Well George, thank you for your description of the extent of your kenpo training and skill. Your statement seems to be rather definitve, so I'll simply suggest you find an instructor in Ed Parker's Kenpo who may expand on your knowledge and skills. There are many who do not share your limited view of what some interpretations of Kenpo have to offer. I wish you success if you choose to search, however you should not assign your limitations to an entire art and its many teachers and students, unless you consider yourself to know all that Ed Parker Sr. knew and taught to his many students.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

tsunami said:
			
		

> I guess that personaly attacking me works better than giving me a good example of how YOU would use a kenpo tech on the ground. I may lack knowlage but that is about it.
> 
> Have a super day.


 

I could give you many examples of how I would use a Kenpo technique on the ground, but that subject is old hat.    If you'd like that answer, simply do a search here and find them.     Your naiveness of Kenpo is not our problem, it's yours, and you're the only one who can change it.   If you lack knowledge, admit it, which you have done, but don't take our suggestions as a personal attack, hell, I don't even know you to get personal.

DarK LorD


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## tsunami

That's cool and I get it. See ya.


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## Seig

tsunami said:
			
		

> That's cool and I get it. See ya.


George,
I don't think you do get it. As a member of the staff, I normally stay out of the topics that are hot buttons; but, one of my moderators brought this thread to my attention. While I disagree sometimes with the way Clyde and Doc say things, there message is essentially correct. Not all Kenpo instructors teach weapons and ground fighting, for different reasons. Some may have not been taught, others may have no interest. For example, I do not _generally_ teach weapons to anyone under black. My reasoning for this is simple, the skills I was taught were primarily for deadly force encounters only. I do not want to pass those skills on to someone who is not fully prepared for the consequences. Does this mean I cannot teach them? No. It means, I don't, at least yet. For those that are interested in the stick work, I have a FMA instructor that comes in once a week for sticks and knives. He occasionally gets irritated with me for interrupting him. For example, about a month ago, he was doing a passing drill when I broke in and said, "Ok this is Leaping Crane without the kick". As for grappling, and this is a sticky subject, most simply are not taught. When I originally started in Kenpo, I was also taught Jui-Jutsu because "Kenpo doesn't have groun fighting." Many years later, with much self discovery and some better  instruction, I have found that the ground fighting "Kenpo doesn't have" is actually very cleverly imbedded within the art. I went outside the art, involuntarily, to find out what was in it. The only thing that limits Kenpo is the instructor and your own view point. Remember Infinite Insights Volume I, Chapter I, page 1. "Three points of view to every situation."


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## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> Its not the circular movements being challenged, but the emphasis on BIG.
> 
> I try to keep most of my circles in the techniques and extensions smaller and tighter by locking and controling joints in sequence, thereby needing less motion and exposure on my part to manipulate my attacker.
> 
> If you mean BIG circles for continuous striking sequences, i still try to keep them small, more as a natural flow from changes in stance driven by the hips than as BIG circular arm movements.
> 
> Where do you see advantages or applications of BIG circles in kenpo... they are there and have their place, just that i don't see them as prevalent as smaller tighter circles.
> 
> thanks for the conversation...
> 
> pete



Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.


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## TwistofFat

Doc said:
			
		

> Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.


Couldn't agree more.  I spent years trying to make my circles tighter and closer to my body...and started to resemble an alligator.  I have noticed in many live drills the requirement to "go big" on my circles on occassion to make sure uke is where I what him to be (or me not to be where he wants me...).  Now, I just need someone to tell where to stop!

Regards - Glenn.


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## pete

Doc said:
			
		

> Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.


doc, i'm glad that you've weighed in on this... i did say that big circles have their place in kenpo, and with you saying they are a necessity i'd like to explore their correct applications.  

first, to define big vs small circles... 
how about 'big' being a movement that relies on shoulder rotation and the hands moving outside the dimensions of your body
and "small' relying on wrist rotation and keeping your hands in close.

i think of the applications as if it were a 3 wheels... i am the first wheel, with my energy coming from my center (the hub) out to my extremities (the rim). the second wheel exists between me and my opponent when we are engaged, which is different for big circles vs small ones.
in a small circle, my force would be moving from a hub outward to the rim. in a big circle, my energy moving inward from a rim towards a hub.  picture it as either tuning a steering wheel from the outside rim vs center.
the third wheel is my opponent, which i want to penetrate inward from the rim to his hub, or attack his center.

so to give some examples, we have spiraling wrist/twig using the first wheel (yourself) turning to power a second wheel as a small circle.  this turns the wrist (hub) and controls of the elbow to move his shoulder (rim). the third wheel is your opponent who is now being controlled through his shoulder, down his spine (a spoke?) to his center.  in this technique, another small circle follows that movement to apply the wrist lock.

circling wing using a series of small circles to manipulate the attacker to the right, then left, and back right again.  

flight to freedom uses a big circle to move the attacker from the wrist through his shoulder, without the elbow being controlled. in this case that middle wheel needs to be a big circle, moving his wrist as the rim down to his shoulder as the hub.

big circles may also be needed to open up his center as a target, in some techniques like hooking wings' figure-8 hammer-backfists can go through the face in a larger style to clear his arms.

i feel that while larger circles may be necessary for specific applications, they do expose you to easier counters, less control, and slower movement (or maybe more movement which would take longer?) and that kenpo favors smaller circles to avoid some of these consequences, unless it is necessary.

doc, please elaborate on this and correct me where i may be wrong~

thanks, 
pete


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## tsunami

To Dark Lord, Doc and Seig. I have admittedly made several mistakes and false assumptions on this thread. Some of which include, posts tailored to syle of responses rather than content, assuming a broader range of knowlage than I actually have and slipping into a "we have not done it that way" mind set. I will in the future try to keep all of these in mind when posting. I'd like to think that I will admit it when I make mistakes. In this case, to my own detrement I did not open my eyes sooner. This is what I should have posted instead of the lackluster "I got it" post. 

Respectfully, George


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

tsunami said:
			
		

> To Dark Lord, Doc and Seig. I have admittedly made several mistakes and false assumptions on this thread. Some of which include, posts tailored to syle of responses rather than content, assuming a broader range of knowlage than I actually have and slipping into a "we have not done it that way" mind set. I will in the future try to keep all of these in mind when posting. I'd like to think that I will admit it when I make mistakes. In this case, to my own detrement I did not open my eyes sooner. This is what I should have posted instead of the lackluster "I got it" post.
> 
> Respectfully, George


Now, with that in mind, what else would you like to discuss, the floor is yours and I'd be happy to answer any questions in a civil manner.

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Doc said:
			
		

> Big circles are a necessity. It just depends on how long someone has been doing them and if they are done correctly.


If you wouldn't mind, could you give us an example where big circles are  a necessity, ie. what techniques, sets, etc.?

DarK LorD


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## Touch Of Death

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> If you wouldn't mind, could you give us an example where big circles are  a necessity, ie. what techniques, sets, etc.?
> 
> DarK LorD


The shoulders are a great place to use big circles. It optimizes the distal.
Sean


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> The shoulders are a great place to use big circles. It optimizes the distal.
> Sean


What in the hell are you talking about?

DarK LorD


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## Touch Of Death

OOOOHHHH, never mind. Its not important. :asian:


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## tsunami

> Now, with that in mind, what else would you like to discuss, the floor is yours and I'd be happy to answer any questions in a civil manner.
> 
> DarK LorD
> 
> This question is off thread and might be an old one, but I would like to take advantage of your offer. What are your thoughts on why short 3 does the complete right half before mirroring itself on the left. Where long 3, forms 4,5,6 and even staff set mirrors each technique individually? It is another way of mirroring but I have a feeling there is more to the story.
> 
> George


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

tsunami said:
			
		

> Now, with that in mind, what else would you like to discuss, the floor is yours and I'd be happy to answer any questions in a civil manner.
> 
> DarK LorD
> 
> This question is off thread and might be an old one, but I would like to take advantage of your offer. What are your thoughts on why short 3 does the complete right half before mirroring itself on the left. Where long 3, forms 4,5,6 and even staff set mirrors each technique individually? It is another way of mirroring but I have a feeling there is more to the story.
> 
> George
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16544
> 
> The thead I pasted is quite long, but it may answer your question. "Doc" has a post on the last page as of yesterday that tells the story, I couldn't have said it better than that post, and it's a position I've also advocated for years.  Here is a cut & paste of it.
> 
> Excerpts from the Diary of a "Mad" Kenpo Scientist
> The Ambidexterity Myth
> By
> Ron Chapél, Ph.D.
> 
> Over the years there have been significant misconceptions regarding the efficacy of right and left side training. A great deal of discussion exists relative to whether forms performances, and self-defense techniques are or should be right, left, or balanced in teaching and training execution.
> 
> The simple truth is all are correct in certain respects, and the confusion like many other topics, comes from the progenitor himself. Mr. Parker spent a considerable amount of time looking into the concept and reached some rather interesting conclusions in our own research and discussions.
> 
> As a forms example, in most versions of Ed Parkers Short Form Two, it does indeed include the physical left side in its right side presentation. But, it is still considered, by Ed Parkers definition as explained to me, to be the right side, or what he quietly called right side brain dominant. However you do not reverse the synaptic and cerebellar pathway responsibilities for movement until the actual mirror image is performed.
> 
> This is what Parker meant by left side. The physical left is only motion or movement, but the true left side is an opposite or reversal of brain dominance and control. Thus all forms encompass in some manner right and left side, but to begin from the opposite side or mirror image reverses all mental functions and changes muscle response significantly enough to have significant influence on function.
> 
> Whether this is necessary in teaching is dependent on how you teach or train. Ed Parker created a series of conceptually right-handed techniques. He himself was not ambidextrous, nor was he working to become that way. His goal was physical competency in the physical interaction of the activity. And those who borrow sport concepts like cross training seem to put more value into ambidexterity than those who concentrate on self-defense as he did.
> 
> Although in his commercial schools he encouraged left & right training for a variety of reasons, he recognized in self defense, competence was more important than performing left and right equally well. He knew that practicing both sides can yield benefits, but he also knew right & left would never be equal. Either way the operative phrase is mirror image execution, to activate both sides of the brain to create balance in any kind of physical training.
> 
> In Ed Parkers self-defense philosophy however, training should be based on a curriculum of well thought out systematically principled and progressive techniques. The mechanisms inherent in the process are designed to emphasize situational effectiveness with ambidexterity irrelevant to function. Movements should be performed on both sides to demonstrate effective basic skills generated by both sides of the brain with their own unique synaptic pathways. But, self-defense techniques are about competence and effectiveness within the sequence first, and emphasis must be place there as a top priority.
> 
> Of course basic skills should be raised to an acceptable level of effectiveness, but the goal of balance in the execution of self-defense techniques in their mirror image is unnecessary, time consuming, and not physically possible when it comes to equity.
> 
> The teachers who preach this both sides technique execution perspective themselves are not equally proficient on both sides. Most traditional styles and disciplines and even western boxing have techniques and moves used only from the left or right side. Most styles promote a left side forward to allow use of the right (strong) hand and leg from the rear. Even when the techniques change they still favor the right side. Even in those schools that promote equal side proficiency it is never, nor is it possible to be actually achieved.
> 
> The reasons it is not possible are physiological involving a mental interaction with the bodys ability to perform. Each side of the body is controlled by opposite sides of the brain. For example, when learning a left kick, a synaptic pathway must be created or established through the right side of the brain and vice versa. No matter how you train, the left and right pathways will never be identical in function. Even though the two sides of the brain function together, they do not have identical ways of performing the same function. They may produce identical physical movement, but how the movements are produced and controlled from the brain are very different.
> 
> Additionally the human body is not mathematically symmetrical in the true sense of the term. It is normal in human anatomy for one leg or arm to be longer than the other, and even different in diameter. Every muscle, tendon, cartilage, and even hair growth varies from side to side. World-class athletes do not stride, jump, throw, or move the same on both sides of the body. What is even more interesting is when an athlete is trained to be exactly symmetrical in their execution; it has been shown that physical performance actually declines overall. The body may be visually aesthetically symmetrical, but not precisely physically or mathematically.
> 
> Most have unreasonable expectations with regard to weak side performance. If we anticipate we can train the weak side to perform equally with the strong, we are mistaken. Because of how the brain works, you cannot attain the exact same degree of skill on both sides. It would be like attempting to teach yourself to write equally as well with both hands. You may achieve an acceptable level on the weak side but the strong will always be better and dominant.
> 
> Human beings have a natural physical preference to have a dominant side that is predetermined at birth. Even in cases where a person has activity dedicated dominance, they are always opposite of each other. I have a student who writes on one side, throws on the other, and still in baseball, bats opposite his dominant throwing side. But these activities are still functionally dedicated. He cant write, bat, or throw equally with both. This dominance is so strong in human behavior; it cannot be overcome by external training.
> 
> In the Chinese Martial Sciences, students are taught opposite most other later martial art disciplines with the strong side forward for practicality. In examining the basic idea of most techniques, they can be executed on the prescribed side or they can be executed in what Mr. Parker, called Half Mirror Image. That is a technique may be designed for one side attacking, however just because the attacker uses the other side or "mirror" doesnt mean you have to react in kind with a "mirrored" response.
> 
> The self-defense techniques Thrusting Salute and Buckling Branch as kicking defenses are both interchangeable whether the right or left kick is used in the attack. In "Thrusting Salute" the attack is a front kick with the right leg, and you respond with the prescribed Default Solution to that particular assault. When the attack of a left front kick is used in "Buckling Branch," the attacker is now using the Mirror Image Assault of Thrusting Salute. However if you respond with the Default Solution to Thrusting Salute, you are in a Half Mirror Image Solution response. These attacks, although mirror opposites of each other, can be responded to with the same right handed response.
> 
> This type of training only requires one side be developed significantly to be functional. The opposite side can and will also be developed, but performing a different function. In another example, in the attack for "Delayed Sword" (a right hand), you defend by stepping back with the left foot and executing with your front (right) hand. "Attacking Mace" (again an attacking right hand), does just the opposite, defending by stepping back with the right foot. Both techniques are developed independent of each other on opposite sides of the body, but they both function quite well with either right or left side dominance. Although all of Parkers interpretations of his art tend to be right-handed, students with left-handed dominance can, and do flourish.
> 
> But no matter how well you perform in symmetrical forms, the dominant side will always be more coordinated and controlled. However, in a fight or confrontation of significant stress, and given the choice, you will always have a preference for one side over the other.
> 
> In closing, remember all interpretations of Ed Parkers American Kenpo should be about self-defense first. Many, specifically in America, have confused through clever marketing, sport training with self-defense training. Cross training and symmetrical performance borrowed from sport training and tradition-laden disciplines, must take a back seat to practical function and applications in reality.
> 
> For the same reasons of symmetrical dominance, with the addition of mechanical efficiency, please consider any passive non-action while opposite body parts are moving are dysfunctional in human anatomical movement, and violate this balanced perspective of anatomical movement as well.
> 
> The Ed Parker Slap check (or pak sao in Chinese), and all its many subcategories and functions are always in some manner active. To achieve certain balanced skills, it is imperative that both sides of the body be active and functional at all times, and never ever passive.
> 
> True ambidexterity is a myth and although it is worthy of pursuit, it should not overshadow the quest for practical application first. They dont fight in tournaments they compete. On the street, right or left is irrelevant to survival. You should be capable of using both sides of your body, but not necessarily the same nor equal. Ed Parker was right handed, and so are the systems he created and influenced.-------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> 
> 
> DarK LorD
Click to expand...


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## tsunami

Thank you, this is definitly a section I'm going to print out and add to my notes. 

George


----------



## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> doc, i'm glad that you've weighed in on this... i did say that big circles have their place in kenpo, and with you saying they are a necessity i'd like to explore their correct applications.



Thank you sir for broaching the question. It is one of tremendous importance and intricacy that tends to be approached from rather simplistic positions of either good or just bad. The reality is much more complicated and always, it depends on the circumstances that include applications, study intent, and individual knowledge. Im pressed for time as of late so I hope you dont mine me rambling a bit off the top of my head.



> first, to define big vs small circles...
> how about 'big' being a movement that relies on shoulder rotation and the hands moving outside the dimensions of your body.



That is not a bad general perspective, but realize that the appendages are multi-articulated with joints that all function independently of each other to some extent. Therefore, there are various degrees of circular movements with each one. A large circle at the articulated wrist would not equate to a large circle at the shoulder. This factor alone requires a more specific description of every action predicated on anatomical restraints and physical intent of the application.



> and "small' relying on wrist rotation and keeping your hands in close.


If I may sir, I would like to modify that slightly and refer only to the wrist rotation, and eliminate the hands in close mandate. There are significant applications that fall within the parameters that occur when the appendages are significantly extended away from the torso or body, particularly in proper body indexing.



> I think of the applications as if it were a 3 wheels... i am the first wheel, with my energy coming from my center (the hub) out to my extremities (the rim). the second wheel exists between me and my opponent when we are engaged, which is different for big circles vs small ones.
> in a small circle, my force would be moving from a hub outward to the rim. in a big circle, my energy moving inward from a rim towards a hub.  picture it as either tuning a steering wheel from the outside rim vs center.
> the third wheel is my opponent, which i want to penetrate inward from the rim to his hub, or attack his center.
> 
> so to give some examples, we have spiraling wrist/twig using the first wheel (yourself) turning to power a second wheel as a small circle.  this turns the wrist (hub) and controls of the elbow to move his shoulder (rim). the third wheel is your opponent who is now being controlled through his shoulder, down his spine (a spoke?) to his center.  in this technique, another small circle follows that movement to apply the wrist lock.
> 
> circling wing using a series of small circles to manipulate the attacker to the right, then left, and back right again.
> 
> flight to freedom uses a big circle to move the attacker from the wrist through his shoulder, without the elbow being controlled. in this case that middle wheel needs to be a big circle, moving his wrist as the rim down to his shoulder as the hub.
> 
> 
> doc, please elaborate on this and correct me where i may be wrong.


Sir it is not for me to correct you. You are an accomplished practitioner who has a methodology that obviously works for you and you articulate it in a way that makes this discussion possible. I would not think of telling you it is wrong. I will however give you my opinions on the subject

I will try to not get too specific with applications because we probably have different understandings of the methodologies. However, with regard to a technique like Circling Wing as an example, from my understanding when you turn toward your attacker, the big circle is required to circle over the top of the seizing hand and drop down to a Pin between the biceps and ribcage. If you shorten this circle, you will move his hand away and lose the trap necessary for the next move. Therefore, this big circle is a necessary construct of the anatomical dynamics of the technique.

For me, in Flight to Freedom, the elbow is controlled with the left hand and the precursor movement is, once again, a large Circle that comes off an obscure elbow.



> i feel that while larger circles may be necessary for specific applications, they do expose you to easier counters, less control, and slower movement (or maybe more movement which would take longer?) and that kenpo favors smaller circles to avoid some of these consequences, unless it is necessary.



I suggest that everywhere that large circles are used as a necessary ingredient to proper anatomical movement, they may not necessarily be countered, and actually provide an increased measure of control. This is easily demonstrable.

The small circle concept favored in some American Kenpo (not to be confused with Wally Jays method), is a shorthand quick methodology that can create skill but is not designed to be a methodology for long-term success and ingrained intuitive muscle response. Keep in mind this is not the fault of teachers or students, but is a result of the quick commercial mechanisms of the curriculum and concepts of motion-based Kenpo.

Let us examine, Taiji (tai Qi or tai chi) as an example. Now this training method uses many large circles as a training mechanism for the body. You train the inner body by moving the outer, sometimes in exaggerated movement toward that end. Through this method, the inner structure of the body begins to learn and synaptic pathways created from the exaggerated movements.

Over time, the internal body aligns itself and performs at peak levels of alignment and strength. When you add the mental aspect, that is you know and understand the applications, the body may respond internally as if you are using large circles from physical and mental familiarity even when you are not. 

After correctly training for long periods, the body will even respond internally with no discernable external physical movement at all. This is the great misunderstanding watching Ed Parker. Often he personally used shorthand movement, but that was after years of large external movements to train the internal. This is probably most misunderstood an applied in the inward block which many shoot forward in a linear punching like action usually below the part of the body they are attempting to protect. Parker would use this to illustrate shorthand and students mistook it for basics.

Those who were around in the early sixties will remember Parker teaching inward blocks by cocking the hand with the elbow up and hand behind the ear in his phonic stage of teaching.

A careful study of Ed parker Sr. on film over his lifetime will show him at various stages of his own maturation process using large and small circles alike depending on application and his understanding at the time. The distinction between training and application is not lost in his movement because he understood where he was and what he was doing. Moreover, even phonic movement as application validity.

Bottom line, the large circles are used to train and sometimes they are used in the applications, and then again, they may not be. It always depends. However, when you need small circles, because you have trained the body internally, you may get small circle effectiveness on demand when it is appropriate.

In Taiji or Tai Chi, you find the training method that manipulates and aligns the internal body for maximum effectiveness. When you add the modern day and now elusive Quan or Chuan, you are moving to the application of these movements. 

Modern or contemporary Kenpo skips the basic training phase of the body and moves to applications immediately without the proper external foundation to create internal efficiency. 

It is simply the nature of quick functional skill acquisition. It is one training method that is popular because for some, it requires much less of a time and physical investment for advancement, and significantly less teacher scrutiny of movement and posture. The mandate here is simply, make it work for you, and thats all that matters.  Schools that have students who make black belt in 4, 5, or even 6 years would be considered quick compared to some traditional methods of training. 

However, traditional methods have different goals of long-term effectiveness, as opposed to quick self-defense. With that in mind, many organizations even give black belts in two years or less while Chinese masters correct every movement, posture, and breathing with longer term solutions in mind. Here more personal discipline is needed as students are constantly corrected, and must scrutinize their own actions to comply and advance.

Done properly, the old methods can give you the effect of diablerie we are accustomed to seeing performed by old masters. Ed Parker however distilled the old methods into a modern system but it requires significant knowledge over and above most. In fact, he was the one and only expert to the labor-intensive process that I have worked hard for years to perfect myself.

Big or small circles are both necessary, and the applications will demand one or the other or even both simultaneously. However, in the execution of basics they are a necessity. Ed Parker Sr. called them phonetic movements. These are movements purposely exaggerated to train the inner body. These are the ABCs of any art. From there, you move to printed movement. Putting the letters together in short words to begin to learn function. After that you move to cursive or script movement with the corners rounded and flowing.  Even when you begin script, the letters flow largely and only over time do the circles began to get tighter. However, some circles MUST be large so letters may be read properly. Only after mastering the other stages do you move to shorthand. Without the other skills, effective Shorthand is minimal. Unfortunately, most Kenpo begins with the shorthand out of necessity.

However even in the motion-based Kenpo concept Parker said, If you over extend (widen) the circle of a defensive move, you can create an offense. If you retard (close) the circle of an offensive move you can create a defense.

Parker himself advocated large circles as long as they were purposeful. I think we sometimes are locked into simplistic sayings and terms that retard thinking. Dynamic physical interaction of human anatomy is too complicated for absolute concepts. We must remember they are just conceptual ideas, and are not absolute physical principles.

Pleaase excuse my rambling, now I'm back to work.

Thanks Mr. Landini


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## kenpoworks

Great reply as usual _DOC._

That particular "sound byte" .._Big circles big Trouble..._ has a lot to answer for in my formative "Kenpo" training.
When a teacher only teaches "shorthand" then problems will lie ahead.
Richi


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## pete

doc, great response! your so called "ramblings" are more succinct than many others' well written articles... lots of information for me to put into practice.



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> with regard to a technique like Circling Wing as an example, from my understanding when you turn toward your attacker, the big circle is required to circle over the top of the seizing hand and drop down to a Pin between the biceps and ribcage. If you shorten this circle, you will move his hand away and lose the trap necessary for the next move. Therefore, this big circle is a necessary construct of the anatomical dynamics of the technique.


so true, i wasn't even considering this first "circle" in my example... but now that you have, it's got me thinking!  is this big circle made of several smaller ones?  the internal circle in your center to turn you around to face the attacker, causing outward sprirals through hips and shoulders, elbows and knees, ankles and wrists to allow that big circle to "work" in such a way that you remain well centered and structurally sound... 

for example, as the "trap" is set, the left hand come into the attackers eyes.  if your two hands continued turning in circles (right clockwise and left counterclock), such that the 2 palms are always facing eachother, would you have stronger structure?  now to continue in "circling wing", after a rising elbow to the jaw, we rotate back into a reverse stance and hammer the groin, and again the hands are rotating, but now in the opposite directions (right counterclock and left clockwise).

should these smaller circles be found in all/most big circles, and do they in fact help maintain a stronger physical structure?



			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Modern or contemporary Kenpo skips the basic training phase of the body and moves to applications immediately without the proper external foundation to create internal efficiency.


in my limited experience, it seems that serious students tend to realize this along their way in kenpo and find different ways of addressing it. those that haven't tend to struggle more with "new" material and in improving their overall technique. 

you are doing a great service to the kenpo community by pointing this out for students such as myself.

thank you...
pete.


----------



## Doc

pete said:
			
		

> Doc, great response! Your so-called "ramblings" are more succinct than many others' well written articles... lots of information for me to put into practice.
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Doc
> With regard to a technique like Circling Wing as an example, from my understanding when you turn toward your attacker, the big circle is required to circle over the top of the seizing hand and drop down to a Pin between the biceps and ribcage. If you shorten this circle, you will move his hand away and lose the trap necessary for the next move. Therefore, this big circle is a necessary construct of the anatomical dynamics of the technique.
> 
> So true, I wasn't even considering this first "circle" in my example... but now that you have, it's got me thinking!





> is this big circle made of several smaller ones?


Yes sir it is. The nature of human anatomy does not actually allow significant movement of an appendage without multiple articulations. There is also a tendency to forget that even the hand has multiple points of articulation with at least three joints on each finger. Even more significant is the fingers and wrist have a significant impact on the entire bodys state of structural integrity and state of nerve cavities over the ENTIRE BODY.



> The internal circle in your center to turn you around to face the attacker, causing outward spirals through hips and shoulders, elbows and knees, ankles and wrists to allow that big circle to "work" in such a way that you remain well centered and structurally sound...


Although I would express it differently, you are essentially correct in my opinion.


> for example, as the "trap" is set, the left hand come into the attackers eyes.


I do not teach attacking the eyes.


> if your two hands continued turning in circles (right clockwise and left counterclock), such that the 2 palms are always facing eachother, would you have stronger structure?


Actually, no you would not. The right hand executes a spiraling articulation at the wrist as it moves up, over, around, and down. It moves first in one direction, than the other. The movement and direction are dictated by the position of the hand relative to the position of the arm to the position of the body. As an example, assuming you have done other mechanisms not discussed here correctly, when your elbow drops below your shoulder joint, your baby finger edge must face toward your attacker. If you do not, your entire body will be misaligned and you will be incapable of maintaining a structurally sound stance, nor will your  pin have maximum effect. The position of the left hand is another story.


> now to continue in "circling wing", after a rising elbow to the jaw, we rotate back into a reverse stance and hammer the groin,


I do not teach it that way, nor do we strike the groin.


> and again the hands are rotating, but now in the opposite directions (right counterclock and left clockwise).


If I were to do it this way (and I definitely do not), I would suggest that the right hand does not rotate at all. If the upward elbow is thrown correctly with the palm of the hand facing your head, than the shift into a correct reverse bow rotates the hip, shoulders, and therefore the arm so that the arm literally reverses it self in any strike downward and ultimately now backwards.


> should these smaller circles be found in all/most big circles, and do they in fact help maintain a stronger physical structure?


Yes, think about it. From your shoulder to the tip of your middle finger, you have six articulate joints. Move one finger incorrectly relative to the action, and, you completely destroy your platform stability. Structural Integrity is a fleeting thing due to the bodys ability to move in and out of connectivity in all of its many connecting points and tissue.


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Doc
> Modern or contemporary Kenpo skips the basic training phase of the body and moves to applications immediately without the proper external foundation to create internal efficiency.
> 
> In my limited experience, it seems that serious students tend to realize this along their way in Kenpo and find different ways of addressing it.


Unfortunately sir, this information is not discoverable on a large scale. You must be taught by a very knowledgeable source. Consider among my students, I have several Medical Doctors, a plethora of Chiropractors, two physical therapists, two grad students in Kinesiology, and one licensed acupuncturist. (and a partrich in a pear tree ) None of them despite their education and training can figure out "how" it works. It is elusive knowledge that crosses the boundaries of multiple sciences. You can't find it in any book or video. You must be taught by someone who knows and understands. It is rare.


> those that haven't tend to struggle more with "new" material and in improving their overall technique.


That is because most have no significant foundational material of proper basics to build on, no matter what they do later. The information is not generally available. 

To illustrate my point:

Execute an upward elbow with your palm facing your shoulder. Have someone pull down on your elbow. It will collapse easily and will not feel good. Execute same, same way, as you stand in your neutral bow. Have someone push you on the 12/6 line while your arm is in that position. Once again, you will be unable to resist due to a complete lack of Structural Integrity. 

Now execute with your hand palm flat against the side of your head. No matter how strong the person is they will be unable to pull your arm down. Some might see this as the hand bracing against the head, but it is much more subtle than that. 

Continuing:

Execute the elbow correctly with the palm facing the side of the head but *DO NOT TOUCH YOUR HEAD.* You will find the Structural Integrity you had before is now significantly diminished. Now extend your middle finger, and simply touch your head *LIGHTLY.* You will find the Structural Integrity has now returned. 

There is no single part of your body, no matter how small, that you can move that does not have a profound impact on your entire body.  Ron Chapél


> you are doing a great service to the Kenpo community by pointing this out for students such as myself.


Well sir, that depends on who you talk to.  I could name a few who would definitely disagree with you.

A couple of things. Anyone who performs the experiments I would like them to post their experiences for others to discuss and query.  and--

While I have the opportunity, there was another post by Dr. Dave, (I don't know where it is at the moment) where he repeated something I had said about "most being unable to pass my yellow belt test." After visiting me and experiencing some of the curriculum, he agreed with my statement. I give him credit for at least coming to see me before casting judgement. He himself is VERY well educated and knowledgeable as his title suggests.

However the point of my the statement, and his repeat of same, was not expressing an "I'm better than you." sentiment. The point was, someone could actually be doing Ed Parker's Kenpo, with a significant difference in the depth of understanding of the same information, that would be such that not having been taught that way, a person would be unable to execute with the same the in-depth mechanisms inherent in the curriculum. There is much for all of us to learn. Better or worse is an individual decision relative to what you favor. It is not meant by me or Dr. Crouch (who is not my student by the way - yet) in a negative way.

Thanks Mr. Landini


----------



## Bigsarg

TwistofFat said:


> Couldn't agree more.  I spent years trying to make my circles tighter and closer to my body...and started to resemble an alligator.  I have noticed in many live drills the requirement to "go big" on my circles on occassion to make sure uke is where I what him to be (or me not to be where he wants me...).  Now, I just need someone to tell where to stop!
> 
> Regards - Glenn.



What do u mean by resemble an alligator?

I am a second degree black under Michael Rainy (1993) I hold belts in Tiekedo,judo and Taekwondo. 
Try doing the techniques and keep your circles inside your outer rim. I realized that changing the direction in ur circles sometimes can also help. Remember that as long as you keep the sequence,target and weapons correct. The technique is correct. U can fill dead space and change stances if u want. These things do not change the technique. This practice ( keeping circles within outer rim)  keeps the unending flow of motion for both offense and defense towards an opponent. Remember also:
you can not always find a way to do this, or can you? Practice will be your answer


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## Blindside

Bigsarg said:


> What do u mean by resemble an alligator?
> 
> I am a second degree black under Michael Rainy (1993) I hold belts in Tiekedo,judo and Taekwondo.
> Try doing the techniques and keep your circles inside your outer rim. I realized that changing the direction in ur circles sometimes can also help. Remember that as long as you keep the sequence,target and weapons correct. The technique is correct. U can fill dead space and change stances if u want. These things do not change the technique. This practice ( keeping circles within outer rim)  keeps the unending flow of motion for both offense and defense towards an opponent. Remember also:
> you can not always find a way to do this, or can you? Practice will be your answer



This is a 13 year old post you are replying to, you probably aren't going to get a response.  And besides that dude is probably another Kenpo 10th degree and knows everything about kenpo now.


----------



## Bigsarg

Blindside said:


> This is a 13 year old post you are replying to, you probably aren't going to get a response.  And besides that dude is probably another Kenpo 10th degree and knows everything about kenpo now.


Ya. Didn't look at the date. Just found this website and did a search. 13 yrs. wow how time flys. Where was I 13 yrs ago. Took me a minute to remember. Thanks for pointing the date out


----------



## Flying Crane

Still, I personally think thread necromancy is fine.  Just realize that the people who were originally engaging may not be here anymore so responding to specifics might not get any direct response.

But that does not mean the discussion cannot be picked up again.


----------



## KenpoMaster805

Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that

The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing

I learn all this from my Sifu GM Jesus Flores of Flores Bros Kenpo karate

Like kung FU  they have their on way of doing Martial


----------



## Touch Of Death

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that
> 
> The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing
> 
> I learn all this from my Sifu GM Jesus Flores of Flores Bros Kenpo karate
> 
> Like kung FU  they have their on way of doing Martial


Splash Hands is older than dirt, dude.


----------



## Blindside

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that
> 
> The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing



Lots of systems do checks and the "slapping motions", it certainly isn't just AK.


----------



## Bigsarg

Blindside said:


> Lots of systems do checks and the "slapping motions", it certainly isn't just AK.


The slapping motion is called rebounding checks. It let's ur body ricochet the hand to the place you want it. This is micro seconds slower than stopping your hand at the same place. However, for the next move you must relax to strike again. So the micro is more than made up in the speed of the next move. It also keeps motion fluid in your outer rim which is also a check in itself. 
When I went to Korea I trained with a master in taekwondo. One of the first things he asked me when I introduced myself and told him my pedigree. "Ahh. American kenpo, why you beat yourself up?" This was said with the harshest of accents too. I never could get him to grasp the concept. His style was pure traditional. Hard and strong on every move. Speed was not a motivator. Only classical traditional form was excepted. It was a great learning experience. 
he also said. "And kenpo masters, why they beat themselves up even mooore?" I was funny as an American to hear him chastise something he didn't understand. But it's was true. The longer u train the more u utilize this technique. I didn't realize that until he made that observation. Even a negative statement can bring one enlightenment.


----------



## MA_Student

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Let me tell yall people who doesnt know what Kenpo is Kenpo karate is an updated system based on modern day Street Fighting it applies Logic and Practicality its also a thinking art not only that
> 
> The technique of Kenpo Can change anytime depending upon circumstances Kenpo is MA too it used to be Chinese Kenpo karate then Ed Parker Change it to American Kenpo and Kenpo is the only Martial Art that has check and the slapping motion when you do the technique its not only street its a real thing
> 
> I learn all this from my Sifu GM Jesus Flores of Flores Bros Kenpo karate
> 
> Like kung FU  they have their on way of doing Martial


Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.


If the attacks are actually that unlikely now, they probably weren't very common back then. There are some new attacks becoming more common, but the old staples of a few decades ago (grab-n-punch, tackle, shove, low punch, straight punch, round punch, headlock) aren't gone.


----------



## MA_Student

gpseymour said:


> If the attacks are actually that unlikely now, they probably weren't very common back then. There are some new attacks becoming more common, but the old staples of a few decades ago (grab-n-punch, tackle, shove, low punch, straight punch, round punch, headlock) aren't gone.


Those type of attack are common but it's less likely someone's going to throw the big telegrphed John Wayne hook at someone now because martial arts are so widespread most people will have had even a tiny bit of basic training either as a kid or just doing 1 class. Also with things like mma people are exposed more to fighting now then back then. E.g it's less likely someone's going to do a lapel grab and pull you Into a punch which is a common thing in kenpo or grab your wrist or your shoulder. I'm not saying all attacks are outdated but there's a number that are. If ed Parker hadn't died when he had the style would be completely different now I guarantee it


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Those type of attack are common but it's less likely someone's going to throw the big telegrphed John Wayne hook at someone now because martial arts are so widespread most people will have had even a tiny bit of basic training either as a kid or just doing 1 class. Also with things like mma people are exposed more to fighting now then back then. E.g it's less likely someone's going to do a lapel grab and pull you Into a punch which is a common thing in kenpo or grab your wrist or your shoulder. I'm not saying all attacks are outdated but there's a number that are. If ed Parker hadn't died when he had the style would be completely different now I guarantee it


I don't think those were ever as common as we thought, nor are martial arts skills so common as they seem. Looking at videos of attacks and fights in the street, there are still a lot of round punches, but not so looping nor so obvious as those you so rightly call the John Wayne hook. People still grab and punch reasonably often (compared to the full range of attacks). The punches have straightened a bit, but that doesn't change the mechanics that much. Weight transfer has a bigger effect on most techniques, and angry people still tend to put their weight forward.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

MA_Student said:


> Those type of attack are common but it's less likely someone's going to throw the big telegrphed John Wayne hook at someone now because martial arts are so widespread most people will have had even a tiny bit of basic training either as a kid or just doing 1 class. Also with things like mma people are exposed more to fighting now then back then. E.g it's less likely someone's going to do a lapel grab and pull you Into a punch which is a common thing in kenpo or grab your wrist or your shoulder. I'm not saying all attacks are outdated but there's a number that are. If ed Parker hadn't died when he had the style would be completely different now I guarantee it


I forgot the last part of my reply. You are probably right in your last sentence. The approach to MA is a bit different now. Knowledge has progressed and is more readily shared, so there's more fodder for folks who want to get better and improve their art (as he apparently was).


----------



## Bigsarg

MA_Student said:


> Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.




I think the reason for teaching the techniques is lost in this conversation. 

The techniques teach you attacks, yes. But, they teach you motion and how to gain force with close range strikes. The motion and the comfort (being close to your attacker) is what is important. Then when you achieve spontaneous motion and your reaction is without cognitive thinking, you have achieved True Kenpo. 

It's like driving a car, when you go home everyday, you do not even think to take this turn or that turn, to turn the blinker on and so on.  Why? Muscle memory and noncognitive action. 

You go somewhere new. You pay more attention, slow when you get close to the address. But, you do you think, oh there it is. I must take my foot off the gas and move it to the brake and turn the blinker on. No! Even in those situation some actions are just muscle memory. Some actions are truely thought out to arrive at this new destination but most are noncognitive actions. 

This is the reason for all the different types of attacks. It just simply gives you every foreseeable type of reaction that Mr Parker could come up with to teach to the masses how to achieve True Kenpo. 

As a combat vet that served 26 years in the Army. I have used Kenpo in close range hand to hand. And, no the man did not come up and attack me by shaking my hand. But I did break a man's wrist with the wrist snap from gift of destruction. How his hand ended up in mine is just a mystery to me to this day. But the motion was there and when I realized what had happened the man had a compound fracture to his wrist and was very easy to control from that moment. 

Kind of like when you park in a parking lot. Did you really think thru all the actions that got the car there. No, you thought there's one and next thing you know your turning the car off. 

So,no these attacks are not realistic, nor are they even a technique that you will systematically follow thru each step of the technique until completed. But, the motion your body learns and the ability to feel comfortable right up on an opponent. These are the things you are learning.  

Don't get caught up trying to figure out how many spokes the wheel has. Look ahead where the wheel is rolling. 

True Kenpo is achievable if you train the techniques and apply the principles, theories, and concepts of force


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## Touch Of Death

Bigsarg said:


> I think the reason for teaching the techniques is lost in this conversation.
> 
> The techniques teach you attacks, yes. But, they teach you motion and how to gain force with close range strikes. The motion and the comfort (being close to your attacker) is what is important. Then when you achieve spontaneous motion and your reaction is without cognitive thinking, you have achieved True Kenpo.
> 
> It's like driving a car, when you go home everyday, you do not even think to take this turn or that turn, to turn the blinker on and so on.  Why? Muscle memory and noncognitive action.
> 
> You go somewhere new. You pay more attention, slow when you get close to the address. But, you do you think, oh there it is. I must take my foot off the gas and move it to the brake and turn the blinker on. No! Even in those situation some actions are just muscle memory. Some actions are truely thought out to arrive at this new destination but most are noncognitive actions.
> 
> This is the reason for all the different types of attacks. It just simply gives you every foreseeable type of reaction that Mr Parker could come up with to teach to the masses how to achieve True Kenpo.
> 
> As a combat vet that served 26 years in the Army. I have used Kenpo in close range hand to hand. And, no the man did not come up and attack me by shaking my hand. But I did break a man's wrist with the wrist snap from gift of destruction. How his hand ended up in mine is just a mystery to me to this day. But the motion was there and when I realized what had happened the man had a compound fracture to his wrist and was very easy to control from that moment.
> 
> Kind of like when you park in a parking lot. Did you really think thru all the actions that got the car there. No, you thought there's one and next thing you know your turning the car off.
> 
> So,no these attacks are not realistic, nor are they even a technique that you will systematically follow thru each step of the technique until completed. But, the motion your body learns and the ability to feel comfortable right up on an opponent. These are the things you are learning.
> 
> Don't get caught up trying to figure out how many spokes the wheel has. Look ahead where the wheel is rolling.
> 
> True Kenpo is achievable if you train the techniques and apply the principles, theories, and concepts of force


Well, there is positioning yourself for spontaneous Lizard Brain responses, and knowing how to move, but I think you miss the boat on techniques. They at all stories. A knife is different than free hand; so, the technique won't look the same; because, it is a different story. Etc,


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## Bigsarg

Touch Of Death said:


> Well, there is positioning yourself for spontaneous Lizard Brain responses, and knowing how to move, but I think you miss the boat on techniques. They at all stories. A knife is different than free hand; so, the technique won't look the same; because, it is a different story. Etc,


I don't want to sound ignorant. But you completely lost me in what you are trying to explain. Could you elaborate on your meaning. Thxs in advance


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## Touch Of Death

Bigsarg said:


> I don't want to sound ignorant. But you completely lost me in what you are trying to explain. Could you elaborate on your meaning. Thxs in advance


I am saying that the techniques are not pieces of a motion puzzle, there a logical reasons for why there aren't just a handful.


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## hoshin1600

Bigsarg said:


> I think the reason for teaching the techniques is lost in this conversation.
> 
> The techniques teach you attacks, yes. But, they teach you motion and how to gain force with close range strikes. The motion and the comfort (being close to your attacker) is what is important. Then when you achieve spontaneous motion and your reaction is without cognitive thinking, you have achieved True Kenpo.
> 
> It's like driving a car, when you go home everyday, you do not even think to take this turn or that turn, to turn the blinker on and so on.  Why? Muscle memory and noncognitive action.
> 
> You go somewhere new. You pay more attention, slow when you get close to the address. But, you do you think, oh there it is. I must take my foot off the gas and move it to the brake and turn the blinker on. No! Even in those situation some actions are just muscle memory. Some actions are truely thought out to arrive at this new destination but most are noncognitive actions.
> 
> This is the reason for all the different types of attacks. It just simply gives you every foreseeable type of reaction that Mr Parker could come up with to teach to the masses how to achieve True Kenpo.
> 
> As a combat vet that served 26 years in the Army. I have used Kenpo in close range hand to hand. And, no the man did not come up and attack me by shaking my hand. But I did break a man's wrist with the wrist snap from gift of destruction. How his hand ended up in mine is just a mystery to me to this day. But the motion was there and when I realized what had happened the man had a compound fracture to his wrist and was very easy to control from that moment.
> 
> Kind of like when you park in a parking lot. Did you really think thru all the actions that got the car there. No, you thought there's one and next thing you know your turning the car off.
> 
> So,no these attacks are not realistic, nor are they even a technique that you will systematically follow thru each step of the technique until completed. But, the motion your body learns and the ability to feel comfortable right up on an opponent. These are the things you are learning.
> 
> Don't get caught up trying to figure out how many spokes the wheel has. Look ahead where the wheel is rolling.
> 
> True Kenpo is achievable if you train the techniques and apply the principles, theories, and concepts of force


my only comment on this is that what you describe as "true kenpo"   hold true for every martial art and many other activities and sports.  so it really has nothing to do with it being kenpo.


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## hoshin1600

MA_Student said:


> Kenpo might have been modern when it was made but now it is outdated, the moves still work but a lot of the techniques are from attacks that simply wouldn't happen anymore because it hasn't evolved like it should've done. That's why I've started other styles so I can see what else is out there and update my own kenpo. I won't teach it but it's my personal way.





gpseymour said:


> If the attacks are actually that unlikely now, they probably weren't very common back then. There are some new attacks becoming more common, but the old staples of a few decades ago (grab-n-punch, tackle, shove, low punch, straight punch, round punch, headlock) aren't gone.



Gerry beat me to the point.  there is nothing new under the sun and the way people attack has not really changed.
i have posted before about my general dislike of kenpo.  the issue as i see it is kenpo was not a traditional art so it had no backround  to base methodology on so it created its own.  not a bad thing, but i find the whole "scientific" speal from Parker in a way disingenuous.  when MMA come about it also created its own methodology of training but it had a testing ground to prove itself out and the pressure to actually get results.  
the mistake MA_Student that your making is thinking that it is the technique and attacks that have changed, they havnt.  what has changed is the training methodology.  we have moved from crawling to walking to horse and buggy to formula 1 race car.
some kenpo and many other arts are still a few steps back.


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> Gerry beat me to the point.  there is nothing new under the sun and the way people attack has not really changed.
> i have posted before about my general dislike of kenpo.  the issue as i see it is kenpo was not a traditional art so it had no backround  to base methodology on so it created its own.  not a bad thing, but i find the whole "scientific" speal from Parker in a way disingenuous.  when MMA come about it also created its own methodology of training but it had a testing ground to prove itself out and the pressure to actually get results.
> the mistake MA_Student that your making is thinking that it is the technique and attacks that have changed, they havnt.  what has changed is the training methodology.  we have moved from crawling to walking to horse and buggy to formula 1 race car.
> some kenpo and many other arts are still a few steps back.


A large portion of Kenpoists have up-dated.


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## Bigsarg

hoshin1600 said:


> my only comment on this is that what you describe as "true kenpo"   hold true for every martial art and many other activities and sports.  so it really has nothing to do with it being kenpo.


I have extensive training in two other systems. These systems techniques are not as easily interchangeable as are Kenpo techniques. For this reason I agree with you on some level and disagree on others. Kenpo techniques are also more violent than other systems I've trained with. Each system has its pros and cons. Each is better at one thing and weaker at another. So I will agree to agree and disagree at the same time


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## hoshin1600

Touch Of Death said:


> A large portion of Kenpoists have up-dated.


yeah thats one thing i learned (or was told) here.  but i havnt seen it myself so i cannot have an opinion on what is current,  but then i am not really out there looking and searching either.  i do have to maintain a bit of skeptisim because it has been my experience that many kenpo schools have always told me   "but we are different" when in fact they were not.    its a bit of the "karate style that cried wolf".   i will have to see it i guess.


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> yeah thats one thing i learned (or was told) here.  but i havnt seen it myself so i cannot have an opinion on what is current,  but then i am not really out there looking and searching either.  i do have to maintain a bit of skeptisim because it has been my experience that many kenpo schools have always told me   "but we are different" when in fact they were not.    its a bit of the "karate style that cried wolf".   i will have to see it i guess.


Not that it matters to you, but most of the original kenpo greats came from other systems; so, you are going to get something completely different from school to school.


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## hoshin1600

Bigsarg said:


> I have extensive training in two other systems. These systems techniques are not as easily interchangeable as are Kenpo techniques. For this reason I agree with you on some level and disagree on others. Kenpo techniques are also more violent than other systems I've trained with. Each system has its pros and cons. Each is better at one thing and weaker at another. So I will agree to agree and disagree at the same time



not sure exactly your meaning..  as i read your post the impression i got was that you were saying "in kenpo you train untill things become natura,l almost unconscious"  my point was that, that statement is true for a lot of things.


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## hoshin1600

Touch Of Death said:


> Not that it matters to you, but most of the original kenpo greats came from other systems; so, you are going to get something completely different from school to school.



well my kenpo days were in the 80's . im sure a lot has changed since then.  i dont doubt what your saying.  i just dont have the experience to form another opinion.  but at least i know it and im not stuck in holding one unchanging opinion.  
i actually have tonight free. i was going to stop into a Wado- ryu school to say hi,  but maybe i will look for a kenpo school i am not familiar with.


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> well my kenpo days were in the 80's . im sure a lot has changed since then.  i dont doubt what your saying.  i just dont have the experience to form another opinion.  but at least i know it and im not stuck in holding one unchanging opinion.
> i actually have tonight free. i was going to stop into a Wado- ryu school to say hi,  but maybe i will look for a kenpo school i am not familiar with.


The Kenpo techniques don't teach anybody how to move; so, let me know what you see. Kenpo 5 guys are kickboxers, our guys are split between doing kenpo like it's wing chun, or just glomming on to people like a wrestler; because, some of those guys see life through grappling. LOL Some are a TKD Blend, and some are just plain terrible.


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## Bigsarg

hoshin1600 said:


> well my kenpo days were in the 80's . im sure a lot has changed since then.  i dont doubt what your saying.  i just dont have the experience to form another opinion.  but at least i know it and im not stuck in holding one unchanging opinion.
> i actually have tonight free. i was going to stop into a Wado- ryu school to say hi,  but maybe i will look for a kenpo school i am not familiar with.



Let us know how your search went.
Yes kenpo trains to move without cognitive thought (unconsciously as you said) 

We lean the "what if concept": what if he does not bend over from that strike, what do you do? 

As you are going up the ranks and get more techniques that you can choose from to continue the what if concept, This is the LOGICAL part of action. 

So your opponent is standing and not bent forward. Your body is positioned in such away to your opponent's. There will be many techniques that will place you in a very similar position to your opponent's body. This is the SEQUENTIAL part of action. 

The other systems I studied never did the "what if concept." So their techniques do not blend together. They simply say if he doesn't bend forward then you do this technique. Almost always having to retreat to start a new. Even in Aikido. "What if" he doesn't do this or that and the technique does not create the reaction you want, you have no continuation. Retreat and start a new. 

That is why I do not teach Taekwondo or Akido.

I do however use a lot of things from those arts in my kenpo to make it more effective, in my opinion. 

But I teach the way I was taught, and I also test them on the material as I was taught. After a student has passed his, say Orange belt test. I then teach the different ways I have incorporated other arts into the techniques. Not just go over but teach and I award a stripe when they have mastered those techniques. Then it is back to pure(not the best word to use) Kenpo. In this case  the way I was taught for Purple belt. 

Now my students are free to teach both techniques or choose one. They do not have to teach the way they were taught. 

I believe this is what the evolution of Kenpo is. Now my students are free to evolve Kenpo as they see fit. 

I have visited a school that  one of my Black belts runs and helped test a Green belt. He tested on both pure Kenpo and the variations of the technique that I had taught his instructor. I thought that this was odd but again. It is his Kenpo. I did not ask why he decided to teach and test this way. However, he did tell me over a beer one night on his own. 

I know my replies are lengthy. I'm glad this is not twitter. lol


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## Gerry Seymour

Bigsarg said:


> The other systems I studied never did the "what if concept." So their techniques do not blend together. They simply say if he doesn't bend forward then you do this technique. Almost always having to retreat to start a new. Even in Aikido. "What if" he doesn't do this or that and the technique does not create the reaction you want, you have no continuation. Retreat and start a new.


A system doesn't have to do that. That's an instructor's job. You can do that with any system that has answers to the different responses.


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## Bigsarg

T


gpseymour said:


> A system doesn't have to do that. That's an instructor's job. You can do that with any system that has answers to the different responses.


this is very true. Like I said these other systems would start a new, many times retreating to do so. Not a logical progression of the original technique. They simply do not use their techniques broken up to assist other techniques. The sequential flow of action that Kenpo had taught me


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## Gerry Seymour

Bigsarg said:


> T
> 
> this is very true. Like I said these other systems would start a new, many times retreating to do so. Not a logical progression of the original technique. They simply do not use their techniques broken up to assist other techniques. The sequential flow of action that Kenpo had taught me


My point is that this is a teaching style. You learned it in Kenpo, and it can be applied to any system. I use this same approach, and have seen Aikido instructors do the same (of course, like you, I've seen Aikido instructors who did not).


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## Touch Of Death

Malos1979 said:


> Just a general question, do you guys consider Kenpo and Kempo as the same thing?
> 
> Here in Europe we generally do.


Yes, but not really.


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## Gerry Seymour

Touch Of Death said:


> Yes, but not really.


Clearly they are different. One has more humps.


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## Bigsarg

Malos1979 said:


> Just a general question, do you guys consider Kenpo and Kempo as the same thing?
> 
> You pronounce Kenpo "Kempo"
> I've never looked into the art Kempo


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## Touch Of Death

Kem or Ken, means China, and Po, means, Laws, or better said Parameters Defined. (by the Chinese Kung fu Masters)


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## Bigsarg

We pronounce Kenpo "Kempo" that's how I was taught in the beginning. 
I've never ran into a school that spelled it with an M


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## hoshin1600

Malos1979 said:


> The thing is, here in Holland Ed Parker's Kenpo isn't that popular.
> 
> Here we have alot of Shaolin Kempo from Carl Faulhaber and Gerard Meijers.



if you are referring  to the shaolin kempo of carl Faulhaber, it has totally nothing to do with the kenpo and kempo of that here in America. 
 from what i understand Carl created a style mixing japanese karate and silat and named it Shaolin kempo. this shaolin kempo was created in the Netherlands.

in the united states  Fred Villari studied Ed Parkers kenpo under Nick Cerio and renamed it Shaolin Kempo. so in the states when someone says kempo they usually mean this branch.  however there is also another style called Okinawan Kempo which again has nothing to do with the others.


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## Flying Crane

hoshin1600 said:


> if you are referring  to the shaolin kempo of carl Faulhaber, it has totally nothing to do with the kenpo and kempo of that here in America.
> from what i understand Carl created a style mixing japanese karate and silat and named it Shaolin kempo. this shaolin kempo was created in the Netherlands.
> 
> in the united states  Fred Villari studied Ed Parkers kenpo under Nick Cerio and renamed it Shaolin Kempo. so in the states when someone says kempo they usually mean this branch.  however there is also another style called Okinawan Kempo which again has nothing to do with the others.


And there is also Ralph Castro's Shaolin Kenpo, distinct from Vallari, and from lineage traced to William Chow.


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