# Does Taijiquan involve " Internal Iron Palm " training?



## koenig

I'm very familiar with iron palm training (hitting the bags), but what is internal iron palm training?  I couldn't find much info about it online.  Here's one site but it doesn't have too much info:

http://www.iron-palm-training.com/internal-iron-palm/

How are you using it as a weapon if you're not actually HITTING the person with force?


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## Xue Sheng

Since I have not trained every single flavor of every single style of Taijiquan all I can say is that based on my experience no 

I have also not encountered it in Xingyiquan either.

Nor have I ever heard of anything specifically called *Internal* Iron Palm Training


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## Bobby135

Check out a teacher of mine.  He does much work with Iron Skills.  He specifically does Iron Palm and Iron Vest.  He is very knowledgeable and skillful.  Here is his website:

https://www.coilingdragoninternalarts.com/

I highly recommend him

Bobby


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## ben

> Does Taijiquan involve " Internal Iron Palm " training?


yes, definitely.

Here's an interview with  my instructor that appeared in Inside Kung Fu a while back about his internal Iron Palm methods. Most of the article is not specifically about tai chi however he does talk about it in several places.

If anyone's going to be in Radford, VA for Karate College this June he will be teaching a couple seminars one on combat Tai Chi and another on 1 hit knockouts. Any questions on internal iron palm would be more than welcome and would tie in with the material being taught.


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## pete

Liu Jing Ru jokes that this is Bagua's Iron Palm training:


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## koenig

Bobby135 said:


> Check out a teacher of mine.  He does much work with Iron Skills.  He specifically does Iron Palm and Iron Vest.  He is very knowledgeable and skillful.  Here is his website:
> 
> https://www.coilingdragoninternalarts.com/
> 
> I highly recommend him
> 
> Bobby



Hmm, I think I've heard of that guy before.


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## koenig

ben said:


> yes, definitely.
> 
> Here's an interview with  my instructor that appeared in Inside Kung Fu a while back about his internal Iron Palm methods. Most of the article is not specifically about tai chi however he does talk about it in several places.
> 
> If anyone's going to be in Radford, VA for Karate College this June he will be teaching a couple seminars one on combat Tai Chi and another on 1 hit knockouts. Any questions on internal iron palm would be more than welcome and would tie in with the material being taught.



i'm reading that interview now.  thanks for posting the link.

as far as i'm concerned, iron palm still = hitting stuff 

but it's interesting to read about other stuff and other methods i've never heard of!


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## ben

koenig said:


> i'm reading that interview now.  thanks for posting the link.
> 
> as far as i'm concerned, iron palm still = hitting stuff
> 
> but it's interesting to read about other stuff and other methods i've never heard of!



I'm glad you like the article. 

to me "Iron Palm" = the quality of the hit and hitting stuff would be one way to train that quality. The heavy, rooted & connected kinds of body qualities that tai chi builds are going to lend themselves to this kind of hitting even without specifically focusing on Iron Palm.



> How are you using it as a weapon if you're not actually HITTING the person with force?



In application you _do_ hit the person with _a lot_ of force however the amount of effort you use becomes less and less as you become more skilled. Eventually the hit should feel and look like a light touch while the person receiving the hit swears they got hit with a sledge hammer.


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## redantstyle

IP is extremely mundane.

it is nothing more than learning to hit with full body momentum.

you have to condition the palms so that they are tougher, i.e. the skin gets thicker, muscles get denser, and the bones thicken a bit.   it's a gradual process that simultaneously forges the hand and removes the basic self protection instinct that makes you pull your strike.  

it's S.A.I.D.

'internal' palm refers to 'depth hitting' or a type of kinetic energy transfer that is very quick and causes compression, thereby creating the 'depth effect'.  you feel like the force passes 'through you' or 'out the other side'.

there is definately a skill to it,  but no basis to all the woo-woo associated with it.

hit wine is a good idea, and IP soak is better.

is that Dale Dugas's site?

the link is broken.


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## DaleDugas

That is an old link to my site.

For anyone interested you can visit my site at:

http://www.coilingdragon.com

or http://www.bostonbaguazhang.com


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## David43515

Dale knows more about Iron Palm and Iron Vest than I ever will (You give certain things up when you move 1/2 a world away). But the iron palm I was begining to train back in the states was an internal meathod. Yes you still use jow, and you still strike the bag over and over again, but the emphasis isn`t on striking hard. In fact that`s actually a hinderance. The emphasis is on relaxation, coordinating the breathing with the strike, and chi circulation.

Yes, lightly striking the bag over and over again does thicken the bones and condition the muscles of the hand. But the meathod is internal because it focuses on moving the chi instead of building up muscular power and calluses.

And just like was mentioned before, you wind up strikeing very VERY hard with very little apparent effort. If you ever get to see Gene Chicoine do an Iron Palm demo you`ll see what I mean. He does what looks like a lifeless wet slap and can break over a foot of concrete blocks w/o spacers.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I have not come across any mention of Iron palm in any works on Taiji involving classical teachers and training. 

If you want to call Silk reeling and Fajing "internal iron palm" it might seem misleading. 

I have not read any of the old Bagua masters or Xingyi masters training in Iron palm.

There are exceptions of course and some of them might have trained in some degree of it but I have not heard of it so if anyone has any information concerning any of the internal masters of old practicing it please share.


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## ben

The book "iron palm in 100 days" is by Lee Ying-Arng who was a senior disciple under Yang Chen Fu. I haven't read the book myself but here's an excerpt from the article I linked to earlyer that talks about the book.



> In 1968 Lee wrote the book Iron Palm in 100 Days that was reprinted about half a dozen times. In that book Lee refers to numerous variations and schools of Iron Palm training and other specialty internal palm methods that he taught and Lee explains how to train several methods of Iron Palm. In his book Lee shows a section of the Yi Chin Ching or Sinew Changing classic temple manuscript and he explains that the classic has a section which explains an Iron Palm training method similar to the straight forward or Direct method.


I've also seen some old video of Lee Ying-Arng doing Tai Chi with lots of Iron Palm applications. I'll see if I can find it.


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## ben

Here's some video of Lee Ying Arng doing Tai Chi & Iron Palm. You can see Lee's use of Iron Palm throughout the Tai Chi applications

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## geezer

ben said:


> Here's some video of Lee Ying Arng doing Tai Chi & Iron Palm. You can see Lee's use of Iron Palm throughout the Tai Chi applications



Thanks for the video clips. Way back in about '79 my first WC instructor taught an intro to "Iron Palm" using Sifu Lee's book for our text. It was interesting to see in the video how Sifu Lee actually performed the techniques. At any rate, the emphasis in the class I took was always on being very soft and relaxed. Still, when I later became a student of a Chinese Sifu who trained under Grandmaster Yip Man, I found out that all these "Iron Palm" techniques were not integral to WC/WT. They had been added on by my first instructor. It seems like Xue, Jade-Cloud and others are making this same point about "Iron Palm" and Tai Chi. Nobody said that it didn't work or wasn't practical. Just that it wasn't traditionally part of Tai Chi.

Another confusion is interpreting "hard and soft" as being the same as "external and internal". They are not. Wing Tsun, which I practice has always been classified as "external". It is is also very soft when done well. The highest level practioners in the WT system strike with that same, totally relaxed, seemingly effortless quality that focuses energy from your whole body. That's just good soft-style kung-fu. It's not "internal"... although at the very highest levels such distinctions may diminish. 

But to my understanding, as long as you are hitting stuff, whether "hard or soft" you are still practicing "external" training. Please correct me if I misunderstand.


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## Quotheraving

geezer said:


> But to my understanding, as long as you are hitting stuff, whether "hard or soft" you are still practicing "external" training. Please correct me if I misunderstand.



You misunderstand.

External training builds up speed and strength.
Internal training goes beyond purely muscular conditioning in favor of the development of intrinsic force (jing).

If you strike using muscular force then it is external, if you strike with fa jing then it is by definition internal.

So it's not that you are practising striking that makes it internal or external, but how you are practising striking and what your end goal is.

The idea that internal martial training forgoes striking in training is likely due to those people who seek to practise the art solely for the health or meditation getting a bit uncomfortable at anything that smacks of violence and conflict.


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## geezer

Quotheraving said:


> If you strike using muscular force then it is external, if you strike with fa jing then it is by definition internal.
> 
> So it's not that you are practising striking that makes it internal or external, but how you are practising striking and what your end goal is.



I love your signature line. Clearly I was listening to the other 30 while you where changing the light bulb!

But here's the problem. According to your stated criteria, two individuals could undergo identical soft striking training and achieve similar results. But suppose one student credits his skills to perfect, relaxed technique and the normal laws of physics and physiology, while the second student, being of a more "mystic" inclination, attributes his abilities to qi and fa-jing. Would you say that the first student is an "external stylist" and the second is an "internal stylist"? 

This is not so far fetched an argument as it may sound. There was an individual who used to post a lot around here. He insisted that _his_ Wing Chun was an _internal_ style because _he_ did chi-gung exercises, and attributed his skill to internal power. Nothing that Xue or any of the other well informed folks around here could say would dissuade him. Now he has left us, "seeking tranquility". Would you accept his argument?


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## Quotheraving

geezer said:


> But here's the problem. According to your stated criteria, two individuals could undergo identical soft striking training and achieve similar results. But suppose one student credits his skills to perfect, relaxed technique and the normal laws of physics and physiology, while the second student, being of a more "mystic" inclination, attributes his abilities to qi and fa-jing. Would you say that the first student is an "external stylist" and the second is an "internal stylist"?



You are starting from a false assumption, since Fa Jin and Qi are just chinese words for real world experiences that entirely obey the normal laws of physics and physiology.

It is true that some people associate these words, in particular the phrase 'energy' which is commonly used in their translation, for some kind of magical bullsh17, but that doesn't mean that these terms don't have a practical and pragmatic value.
So if, as you say, someone "attributes his abilities to qi and fa-jing" and correctly understands the meaning of these words (even if they are blended with mysticism) then they are still an internal stylist.


Nei jia (internal arts) in general and Tai Chi in particular rely exclusively upon the development of relaxed natural structure, having found that this structure is the optimal way to absorb, redirect, store and emit pressure (i'm deliberately translating the chinese word 'jing' as pressure so as to avoid the use of the term 'energy' and hence all the baggage that carries).

As humans our bodies are similar, as are the sensations that signal the correct execution of a technique, and while some elements of this are visible, demonstrable and explainable in terms of body mechanics, other parts are hidden within the structure, made visible only by the effect they have on the person who is on the receiving end of it.

Hence in developing this all important structure and learning to guide, store and emit pressure the student relies largely on their own internal sensations as a guide. These sensations (and the abstracted 'something' that seems to be mobilised and directed through the structure in practise) are typically lumped together under the umbrella term of 'Qi', a word that is also used for many other purposes, most of them mystical.

Emitting this stored pressure in a sudden and explosive fashion is called Fa Jin.    



> This is not so far fetched an argument as it may sound. There was an individual who used to post a lot around here. He insisted that _his_ Wing Chun was an _internal_ style because _he_ did chi-gung exercises, and attributed his skill to internal power. Nothing that Xue or any of the other well informed folks around here could say would dissuade him. Now he has left us, "seeking tranquility". Would you accept his argument?


There are definately elements of the internal about Wing Tsun, especially in those practitioners who have refined their art beyond the reliance on muscular force and speed. Plus some (but by no means all), Qi Gung exercises are designed to develop internal awareness and through this nei jing (internal power - pretty much what I've been describing previously).

As such I cannot dismiss his claims as impossible, though since mystical imagination and misunderstanding of the basics is rife in the martial arts world it's highly likely that he was just deluding himself.


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## ben

geezer said:


> But to my understanding, as long as you are hitting stuff, whether "hard or soft" you are still practicing "external" training. Please correct me if I misunderstand.



I was using the video clips to show a relationship between Tai Chi & Iron Palm. I think the fact that iron palm in 100 days was written buy a Tai Chi guy should add a little credibility to the idea that Tai Chi contains Iron Palm training.  


 I agree that hitting stuff is mostly an external method although there could be internal stuff going on that's not being shown or explained on video.  


 I think some of the confusion is caused by the fact that a lot of people think of Iron Palm as hitting stuff to condition the hands to have an Iron quality hit. Iron Palm is a much bigger category than that consisting of many different training methods and different kinds of Iron Palm from hard to soft and from internal to external.




geezer said:


> It seems like Xue, Jade-Cloud and others are making this same point about "Iron Palm" and Tai Chi. Nobody said that it didn't work or wasn't practical. Just that it wasn't traditionally part of Tai Chi.


 

 I think you have to be careful with the word traditional. Tai Chi has been changing and evolving with each generation ever since it was first created and even then it didn't magically appear from thin air as a complete system but was built on top of the other arts and knowledge that existed at the time. Usually all traditional means is the way I was taught.


 Instead of: Does Taijiquan involve Internal Iron Palm training?
 a better question might have been: Does _your_ Taijiquan involve Internal Iron Palm training?


 And instead of just saying yes I should have said: Yes my Tai Chi does develop an Iron (or Iron wrapped in cotton) quality hit. And I would add that the development of this quality is not a recent addition to my Tai Chi. It goes back at least several generations and comes from more than one source as well.


 You're wrong Quotheraving or should I say "Well we tell that joke differently in our school."   
 It takes 100 Tai Chi players to change a light bulb.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Did Lee learn Iron Palm from Yang Chen Fu? I do not find anything stating Yang Chen Fu taught Iron Palm.

The video clips say "Lee's modified Tai Chi" can we assume he learned Iron Palm else where and incorporated it into his modified style?

Saying Taiji contains Iron Palm because one guy does it and modified it is like saying Taiji contains Ninjutsu because one guy modified his Taiji to contain it.

But if we ask does Lee Ying Arng Taiji contain Iron Palm then the answer is yes. But if we are going to generalize Taiji then the answer is no.


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## Xue Sheng

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Did Lee learn Iron Palm from Yang Chen Fu? I do not find anything stating Yang Chen Fu taught Iron Palm.
> 
> The video clips say "Lee's modified Tai Chi" can we assume he learned Iron Palm else where and incorporated it into his modified style?
> 
> Saying Taiji contains Iron Palm because one guy does it and modified it is like saying Taiji contains Ninjutsu because one guy modified his Taiji to contain it.
> 
> But if we ask does Lee Ying Arng Taiji contain Iron Palm then the answer is yes. But if we are going to generalize Taiji then the answer is no.


 

Thank You


Iron palm in 100 days was written by Lee Ying Arng who was also Bagua person to I believe and as far as I know Lee Ying Arng was not a senior disciple under Yang Chen Fu. But unless someone can supply me with the Chinese for his name I cannot be 100% sure. A lot and I mean A LOT of people trained with Yang Chengfu and a lot claim to be disciples and they were not or some are just assumed to be because they once trained with Yang Chengfu. Others make the clam and if you have someone who actually knows (The Yang family and actual disciples of Yang Chengfu or disciples of his disciples they can pretty much tell you who is fake and who is not) There was another Taiji sifu, recently mentioned on MT as a master, whose teacher is pretty much a fraud but they likely they are not aware of it or if they are either will not believe it or are equally guilty of fraud. I have come across this in researching Yiquan and in Chen family lineage clams as well. There is a gentleman with the family name of Yang (Yang Fukui) that is a fraud as well that was claiming to be a member of the Yang family and he most certainly is not and the Yang family even made a statement about him.

The fact that someone, even a reputable someone, wrote a book on the topic does not mean it is true. There are things that were written by Sun Lutang, Yang Chengfu, Tung Ying Chieh and Fu Zhongwen that are not historically true and they fully believed they were ad don&#8217;t get me started on Cheng Manching. Although I still wold recommend all of thier books, Cheng Manching included.

Also Yang Chengfu did not teach Iron palm as far as I know, and as far as I know, there is no &#8220;Internal Iron Palm Training&#8221; in any legitimate style of Taijiquan. 

In my opinion I pretty much chalk all this type of stuff up to silliness. People are looking for an edge, a secret, a reason to feel superior so they look to things like &#8220;Internal Iron Palm Training&#8221; &#8220;or secret Yang family style&#8221; when in fact they do not exist within the confines of Yang style Taijiquan, there are no secrets just training and if your sifu is worth his stuff he will train you what you need to know when you are ready for it and when you are talking Taiji it takes YEARS. And this is cominig form one that use to look for the secrets befire he realized that there were none, just training and trusting the person teaching you :asian:


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## Quotheraving

Xue Sheng said:


> In my opinion I pretty much chalk all this type of stuff up to silliness. People are looking for an edge, a secret, a reason to feel superior so they look to things like &#8220;Internal Iron Palm Training&#8221;



I don't know about that, it seems a little over dramatic. 
Most martial artists who have adopted iron palm training aren't looking for anything other than to be able to strike with full force without injuring their own hand in the process, more prudence than pomposity if you ask me.

I agree with your general sentiment though, focussing upon hand conditioning has nothing to do with the essence of T'ai Chi and it is possible to become a very effective martial artist using T'ai Chi without ever once needing to strike the opponent.  
I for one would far rather bounce someone away or pin them using chi-na than punch the bejeezus out of em. 

Yang style orthodoxy exclusively emphasises sensitivity and structure (and consequently de-emphasises striking) in training and only gradually works towards free sparring (and hence even the thought of striking) over the course of years and even decades. 
There are some schools that start off sparring from day one, but in my experience they tend to display a VERY poor level of ability. This is doubtless due to them trying to skip the boring but essential basics in a rush to get straight to what they consider "The good stuff".



P.S.
As regards other 'secret' techniques, specifically Dim Mak or cavity striking (which talking about silliness Erle Montaigue loves  ). If memory serves me well there is even some oblique references to striking techniques of just this type in the dubiously titled, but otherwise excellent "Yang family secret transmissions", but as my edition of this is out on loan I can't verify it right this moment.


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## Xue Sheng

Quotheraving said:


> I don't know about that, it seems a little over dramatic.
> Most martial artists who have adopted iron palm training aren't looking for anything other than to be able to strike with full force without injuring their own hand in the process.


 
Not saying they don't, just saying this whole "internal iron palm" and secret transmission stuff is, IMO, a bit silly.

We hit trees in sanda to train the palm but there was never once a mention of "iron palm training" it was simply training :asian:



Quotheraving said:


> If memory serves me well there is even some oblique references to striking techniques of just this type in the dubiously titled "Yang family secret transmissions", but as my edition of this is out on loan I can't verify it right this moment.


 
Would this be a reference to Michuan?


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## Quotheraving

Xue Sheng said:


> Would this be a reference to Michuan?



Nope, the majority of the information in the book was from Cheng Fu's generation and not Lu Chan's, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't Michuan.


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## ben

There are several different kinds of internal iron palm that are found in all 3 internal arts. (Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua) The Tai Chi classics talk about a body quality described as Steel wrapped in cotton. This is one aspect of Iron Palm in Tai Chi although Iron Palm encompasses more than just the Steel wrapped in cotton idea and Steel wrapped in cotton is talking about more than just Iron Palm.

More recently Bruce Frantzis wrote a book called The Power of internal martial arts where he mentions a few different kinds of internal iron palm. He writes about condensation strikes saying:



> "This is an earlier level of Cotton Palm, and is often called the internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's "Iron Palm." This method exists in all tree styles, equally done with open-hands, fists, or forearms."



and in the section on cotton palm he writes:



> "This technique is equally common to all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts.



Internal Iron Palm is *not* some secret passed down to only a select few. It is common to _all_ the advanced levels of _all_ internal martial arts not just Tai Chi. The problem is that outside of China it is very difficult to find quality information about any of the internal arts

In Draeger's book Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts he lists 4 shortcomings of Chinese martial arts. The #1 shortcoming is:



> (1) Some excellent methods have died because of the fetish of secrecy



The effects of this fetish of secrecy can be easily seen in the states where anyone who knows the moves in a form and can quote some philosophy is considered a Tai Chi Teacher and anyone who knows just a little more than that is considered highly skilled.

Unfortunately this makes supporting points about high level or even intermediate level internal arts difficult on an internet forum. The quotes above and the video I posted earlier are not meant to be absolute proof of any kind. They are there to show anyone interested in Internal Iron Palm or the brutal striking of the internal arts that it might be something worth looking into. Increasing one's # of teachers and sources of information is almost always a good thing especially in a field as convoluted and confused as the Internal Martial Arts. Even knowledgeable and forthcoming teachers don't have it all.





Quotheraving said:


> ...Yang style orthodoxy exclusively emphasises sensitivity and structure (and consequently de-emphasises striking) in training...



I partially agree but I don't think that an emphasis on sensitivity and structure de-emphasizes striking.  Understanding structure, weight distribution and transfer, energetics & body states and of course sensitivity are all very important to proper striking in Tai Chi. I am also not trying to over emphasize the striking aspects of Tai Chi but that just happens to be the topic at hand.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> There are several different kinds of internal iron palm that are found in all 3 internal arts. (Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua


 I don't see it. I have not read of any master in any of the arts saying anything about Iron Palm. I would have thought Bagua would have no mention of Dong Hai Chuan or his students training in it that I have heard of read.



> The Tai Chi classics talk about a body quality described as &#8220;Steel wrapped in cotton.&#8221; This is one aspect of Iron Palm in Tai Chi although Iron Palm encompasses more than just the &#8220;Steel wrapped in cotton&#8221; idea and &#8220;Steel wrapped in cotton&#8221; is talking about more than just Iron Palm.


 To put it in context of what you said it means this:


> After a long period of practice and chi circulating freely everyday, you develop jin (an internal power which is different from hard force). This is what the Tai Chi Classics means by "from true softness comes true hardness". The arms of one who has Tai Chi kung fu will feel extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton.


 It is talking about developing Jin. Yes the internal arts have Jin and the emitting of Fa jin but calling that internal Iron Palm or Iron Palm IMO is misleading call it what it is Fa jin. 


> This is an earlier level of Cotton Palm, and is often called the internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's "Iron Palm." This method exists in all tree styles, equally done with open-hands, fists, or forearms."


Is this Cotton Palm?


> Cotton iron palm, sometimes called "cotton palm," is very rare. It involves hitting a bag filled with cotton or some other soft material. Where as the external style involves significant conditioning of the hands, cotton palm does not develop external conditioning in the same way seeing as how a hard surface is never struck. Cotton iron palm involves the use of qigong exercises and dit da jow as well, and an advanced practitioner is said to be able to strike an opponent in the stomach, damage their internal organs, and leave a palm print on their back.


 Can you list any Bagua,Xingyi,Taiji practicers who practiced Cotton Palm as described here?



> It is common to _all_ the advanced levels of _all_ internal martial arts not just Tai Chi. The problem is that outside of China it is very difficult to find quality information about any of the internal arts


If it is common how come noone knows about it? Who is teaching "Iron Palm" in Taiji,Bagua,Xingyi? I can understand Jin being developed I can understand and see Silk reeling in all internal arts(especially Bagua) which develops Jin but I do not see anything named "Iron Palm" or "Internal IronPalm" being used by any of the masters of old.

I think we know more about the internal arts then before. Plenty of published material plenty of people traveling to China to train and hosting these masters here in the states. 



> Unfortunately this makes supporting points about high level or even intermediate level internal arts difficult on an internet forum.


 If you can support your points with evidence of the usage of Internal Iron Palm but if we are to follow this formula:


> The internal version is not commonly seen. Its practice is almost entirely based in qigong with exercises designed to generate and move the qi around the body and into the palms of the hand. There is not much bag striking in the practice of this iron palm, owing to its internal nature. It is said that a master of the internal style palm can place his hand on an opponent and strike without moving his hand back at all and cause great damage. An internal palm breaking demonstration may involve the practitioner placing his hand on top of a stack of bricks and then breaking them with what appears to be only a small shake of his body, but his hand never comes off the bricks. Internal iron palm will involve the use of dit da jow after, and possibly before practice as well.


 It is clearly Fa jin calling it internal Iron palm IMO seems misleading.


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## Xue Sheng

ben said:


> There are several different kinds of internal iron palm that are found in all 3 internal arts. (Tai Chi, Hsing-I and Bagua) The Tai Chi classics talk about a body quality described as &#8220;Steel wrapped in cotton.&#8221; This is one aspect of Iron Palm in Tai Chi although Iron Palm encompasses more than just the &#8220;Steel wrapped in cotton&#8221; idea and &#8220;Steel wrapped in cotton&#8221; is talking about more than just Iron Palm.


 
No its not

Steel wrapped in cotton as far as taiji is concerned has to do with the entire body not iron palm training. Speaking strictly from a Taiji POV it is what happens when Qi infuses the bone and the bones become like steel and the muscles are relaxed like cotton and this allows for rather powerful strikes using fajing.



ben said:


> More recently Bruce Frantzis wrote a book called &#8220;The Power of internal martial arts&#8221; where he mentions a few different kinds of internal iron palm. He writes about condensation strikes saying:
> 
> 
> 
> and in the section on &#8220;cotton palm&#8221; he writes:
> 
> 
> 
> Internal Iron Palm is *not* some secret passed down to only a select few. It is common to _all_ the advanced levels of _all_ internal martial arts not just Tai Chi. The problem is that outside of China it is very difficult to find quality information about any of the internal arts


 
Iron palm is a common practice of a lot of CMA styles there is no surprise or secret in anything that Bruce Frantzis wrote on the topic. But if I approach my Taiji sifus and talk about Iron palm he will, and has said that is external training and he is born raised and trained in China in taiji and only taiji. If I talk to my Sanda Sifu about iron palm training he will say that is a training all by itself and he does not say that standing there hitting a tree is iron palm training and he to is born raised and trained in China, but in Sanda and only Sanda.

And cotton palm is another name for what Yang Luchan originally taught it is not anything unusual it is just an early name for Yang Style Taijiquan




ben said:


> In Draeger's book &#8220;Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts&#8221; he lists 4 shortcomings of Chinese martial arts. The #1 shortcoming is:
> 
> 
> 
> The effects of this &#8220;fetish of secrecy&#8221; can be easily seen in the states where anyone who knows the moves in a form and can quote some philosophy is considered a Tai Chi Teacher and anyone who knows just a little more than that is considered &#8220;highly skilled.&#8221;


 
There are no secrets however we in the west believe there are because we do not get taught what "WE" feel we should be taught "WHEN" we feel "WE" should. It is rather hard for most here to understand that a good Sifu knows better than you do what you are ready to learn and when you are ready to do it. We tend to take our lack of patients and call it Chinese secrecy



ben said:


> Unfortunately this makes supporting points about high level or even intermediate level internal arts difficult on an internet forum. The quotes above and the video I posted earlier are not meant to be &#8220;absolute proof&#8221; of any kind. They are there to show anyone interested in Internal Iron Palm or the brutal striking of the internal arts that it might be something worth looking into. Increasing one's # of teachers and sources of information is almost always a good thing especially in a field as convoluted and confused as the Internal Martial Arts. Even knowledgeable and forthcoming teachers don't have it all.


 
There is some rather powerful striking in the internal martial arts, Xingyiquan hits like a truck but that has MUCH more to do with the unification of your body that anything called "Iron palm". Also Taiji can hit you damn hard too. I bent the hooks on a heavy bag and knocked it off the chain when I got it right. But again it has more to do with unification of the body (muscles and skeleton) and from the IMACMA view movement of qi or energy than anything called "Iron palm"



ben said:


> I partially agree but I don't think that an emphasis on sensitivity and structure de-emphasizes striking. Understanding structure, weight distribution and transfer, energetics & body states and of course sensitivity are all very important to proper striking in Tai Chi. I am also not trying to over emphasize the striking aspects of Tai Chi but that just happens to be the topic at hand.


 
I never even once hinted that there is no striking. Training striking is not training iron palm. Taiji, depending on style, has a lot of striking. It is in the forms, elbows, palm, fist, foot, knee, shoulder, etc. But the idea of the slow movement is to get the whole mess that we call our body relaxed and in the proper alignment to allow the energy to travel from the root to where ever you want it of go and this is fajing not iron palm.


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## ben

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> After a long period of practice and chi circulating freely everyday, you develop jin (an internal power which is different from hard force). This is what the Tai Chi Classics means by "from true softness comes true hardness". The arms of one who has Tai Chi kung fu will feel extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton.





JadecloudAlchemist said:


> ...It is talking about developing Jin. Yes the internal arts have Jin and the emitting of Fa jin but calling that internal Iron Palm or Iron Palm IMO is misleading call it what it is Fa jin...It is clearly Fa jin calling it internal Iron palm IMO seems misleading.



I don't see a mention of fa jing anywhere in that passage. It is talking about building energy through long practice and about developing a body quality that feels like "steel wrapped in cotton" through the use of that internal energy. 

What I said was that while this body quality does many other things it also is part of one kind of Internal Iron Palm in Tai Chi. 

I am not talking about fa jing. fa jing is only one of at least 36 basic jings. the "fa" in fa jing means "explosive" and a jing is an expression of energy. the body has energy a "jing" is how you use that energy. 

Fa Jing = explosive energy. fa jing describes movement and uses of force and energy that are explosive. This is different than Iron Palm although they could be used together.

chansi jing or Silk reeling = is another jing that describes a spiraling use of the energy.

these are only two jings. There are many others that are equally as important to the internal arts. These two are just more common in the west.

(I should probably add that when I say "energy" I do not mean some sort of scifi mumbojumbo I simply mean "energy")



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> If it is common how come noone knows about it? Who is teaching "Iron Palm" in Taiji,Bagua,Xingyi?



I already a answered this but I'll repeat myself again. It is common in the sense that it exists in all the advanced levels of all internal martial arts. It is uncommon in the sense that very few people in the western world have been exposed to it. Much less teach it. 

This is caused by a culture of secrecy Chinese martial arts. This exists to some degree in most martial arts but in China they even have names for it. "Open Door" refers to a public curriculum that is taught to almost anybody. "Closed Door" is the material that is taught "behind closed doors" only to long term trusted students and family members. I wouldn't call these "secrets" because a lot of people do know this stuff but most of them are unwilling to teach it and the few that might be willing to are under a lot of cultural and peer pressure not to. Thats why Draeger lists it as the #1 shortcoming of Chinese martial arts in his book.


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## ben

Xue Sheng said:


> Iron palm is a common practice of a lot of CMA styles there is no surprise or secret in anything that Bruce Frantzis wrote on the topic. But if I approach my Taiji sifus and talk about Iron palm he will, and has said that is external training...




I agree that what Bruce Frantzis wrote is no surprise or secret but he did say that the condensation strikes are the "internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's Iron Palm." This goes back to what I said earlier about different kinds of Iron Palm. I agree that smashing your hands on stuff to make them harder is not Tai Chi but this is only 1 very crude form of Iron Palm. When I say Iron Palm I am referring to Shaolin's Iron Palm and all the Internal martial arts equivalents as well as all other forms of Iron Palm.

I am not saying that Tai Chi includes all forms of Iron Palm. It doesn't. But it does include condensation strikes and "cotton palm" which are both types of internal iron palm.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Eh whatever...


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## ben

I should probably add that I'm not trying to say the Classics specifically talk about Iron Palm.  I am saying that if you develp the "extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton" body quality they do talk about then you will have an Iron Palm quality hit (in addition to a bunch of other different things) that was developed through internal training.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> I should probably add that I'm not trying to say the Classics specifically talk about Iron Palm. I am saying that if you develp the "extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton" body quality they do talk about then you will have an Iron Palm quality hit (in addition to a bunch of other different things) that was developed through internal training.


 
An Iron Palm quality and Iron Palm is different!!

When asked does Taiji involve Iron Palm training you said:


> yes, definitely.


 You go on to say:


> The heavy, rooted & connected kinds of body qualities that tai chi builds are going to lend themselves to this kind of hitting even without specifically focusing on Iron Palm.


Then you mention Lee Ying Arng as proof that Taiji is used in IronPalm without mentioning Lee modified it and trained his Iron Palm else where and not thru Yang Chen Fu. You then try to change the story that the Taiji classics speak in realtion to Iron Palm which is not true as Xue pointed out: 





> Steel wrapped in cotton as far as taiji is concerned has to do with the entire body not iron palm training. Speaking strictly from a Taiji POV it is what happens when Qi infuses the bone and the bones become like steel and the muscles are relaxed like cotton and this allows for rather powerful strikes using fajing.


Now you are saying:





> he did say that the condensation strikes are the "internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's Iron Palm."


 
Big leap from yes contains Iron Palm to well it has equivalent to Iron Palm.


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## Xue Sheng

ben said:


> I agree that what Bruce Frantzis wrote is no surprise or secret but he did say that the condensation strikes are the "internal martial arts equivalent of Shaolin's Iron Palm." This goes back to what I said earlier about different kinds of Iron Palm. I agree that smashing your hands on stuff to make them harder is not Tai Chi but this is only 1 very crude form of Iron Palm. When I say Iron Palm I am referring to Shaolin's Iron Palm and all the Internal martial arts equivalents as well as all other forms of Iron Palm.
> 
> I am not saying that Tai Chi includes all forms of Iron Palm. It doesn't. But it does include condensation strikes and "cotton palm" which are both types of internal iron palm.


 
All I can say is I do not agree with Bruce Frantzis, but then I have not read his book and maybe there is something missing here. Shaolin Iron palm is something very different than working on the body structure and internal in taijiquan

And again cotton palm, aka cotton fist is a reference to what Yang Luchan originally called Yang style taiji and not a method of training something other than Yang style taiji in its early stages as it came from Chen style. It also can be used as an insult these day in China in the right context much like flower fist




ben said:


> I should probably add that I'm not trying to say the Classics specifically talk about Iron Palm. I am saying that if you develp the "extremely heavy; like steel wrapped in cotton" body quality they do talk about then you will have an Iron Palm quality hit (in addition to a bunch of other different things) that was developed through internal training.


 
JadecloudAlchemist's response already covered some of the things I was going to say so there is no need to repeat those.

I will add that a strike from someone that has trained Iron palm is very different than someone that has trained the striking aspects of taiji. For one the taiji strike is much more relaxed. Also it tends to go much deeper and cover less surface area than an Iron palm strike.


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## ben

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> An Iron Palm quality and Iron Palm is different!!
> 
> Big leap from yes contains Iron Palm to well it has equivalent to Iron Palm.



There's no big leap. Internal Iron Palm is the internal martial arts equivalent to external Iron Palm.

What you're calling iron palm is only 1 small aspect of iron palm.

Iron Palm is a category that includes several different kinds of striking that exist in the internal arts. It also includes the external Iron Palm that most people are familiar with.

I agree with Xue Sheng that Shaolin Iron palm is something very different than working on the body structure and internal in taijiquan. Of course different kinds of Iron Palm are different and of course getting hit with different kinds of strikes will feel different.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> Iron Palm is a category that includes several different kinds of striking that exist in the internal arts


 
So what you are saying is because internal arts have certain types of strikes thus they are practicing IronPalm?  Obviously Bagua has palm techniques but none of the palms I have seen are called Iron palm. I have not seen any of the five element form in Xingyi say anything about Iron Palm, I have not read any family style of Taiji say this is Iron Palm. Noone is doubting that similarities between Iron Palm and Internal arts but the doubt is raised when you are claiming the art does it.

Where in Baguazhang is the Iron Palm? Where in Xingyiquan is the Iron Palm? Where in Taiji is the Iron Palm? Name a master like Sun Lu Tang,Chen Xiaowang,or anyone else saying"this is Iron Palm" In Bagua,Xingyi,Taiji. You have provided Lee Ying who we have already mentioned modified Taiji and added Iron Palm from another source and not from Yang Chen Fu as Xue Sheng as stated concerning Yang Taiji and Iron Palm. If there was Iron Palm in Yang Taiji Xue Sheng's teacher would have mentioned it to him but Xue said 





> I approach my Taiji sifus and talk about Iron palm he will, and has said that is external training and he is born raised and trained in China in taiji and only taiji.


 
So again you keep mentioning Iron Palm is taught in the internal arts then who taught it and used the term Iron Palm?


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## Xue Sheng

ben

OK after rereading this and doing a little checking I think we are getting confused here with the word internal. Apparently there are 2 major schools of thought on iron palm training those being internal and external but this is not to be confused with Internal Chinese Martial Arts like Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan that do not train an internal iron palm as part of their curriculum. 

The Internal side of Iron palm is apparently using more of a focus on Qi as they hit various hard objects and stuff their hands into sand, pebbles and rocks where the external is simply hitting various hard objects and stuff their hands into sand, pebbles and rocks. 

It is not nor should it be confused with Neijia martial arts like Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. Now any one of those styles could have a practitioner that goes off and trains internal iron palm but it is something separate form Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan and considered by my taiji sifu as an external type training no matter what you call it.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Here is an article by Tim Cartmell:

http://www.shenwu.com/Internal_VS_External.htm

Mind these quotes:

Read the part Body Mechanics it clearly shows why internal arts use the whole body for a strike rather then focus on something like Iron Palm.

So if an internal practicer is going to strike it is whole body an emitted Fa Jin calling this "internal Iron Palm" is kinda of midguiding because you can Fa Jin with any part of your body. All the methods in internal such as Taiji-silk reeling Xingyi-Santi spring like motion Bagua-spiral motion are using whole body to emitt Fa Jin.


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## jim777

ben said:


> This is caused by a culture of secrecy Chinese martial arts.



I think the ancient Chinese secrets were exposed in the 70's






sorry, couldn't help myself


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## ben

Here are some articles and video on Internal Iron Palm and Internal Iron Body that may interest some of you who are looking for more info on the topic.

Internal Iron Palm
Internal Iron Body 
Internal Iron Palm & Iron Body Misconceptions
Tai Chi  Steel Wrapped in Cotton
Internal Iron palm/body through Push Hands


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## Tensei85

To be honest, just because you attach Iron Palm to the name Taiji doesn't mean its has any meaning or even value in the name. I could say I'm studying the superman palm, that in fact superman studied & transmitted to me directly "oh & by the way I learned it in Taiji, which Superman also studied", so than Taiji must use the Superman palm! 

When you come to that type of conclusion based on that type of logic, it really is meaningless. 

There can be Iron Palm in everything, its a conditioning process coupled with Qi Gong & most certainly linaments. However if you go to Hong Kong, China whatever & look for a Qi Gong Master they would generally teach Iron Palm, Iron Shirt, Golden Bell etc... seperate from the actual Martial Arts curriculum. So that in itself is a training process not meant that it is the actual embedding of the system it self, but more of a (extra curricular activity), or piece of the larger subject of "Hard Qi Gong" so to say.

So I feel JCA & Xue were 100% correct in their assessment. 

So in short can you train Iron Palm in Taiji, ya definitely as well as Karate, Wing Chun, Judo, even BJJ, its a training method.


Check Wiki, nice read as well:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Palm


But thanks for sharing.


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