# Why Krav Maga works



## TMA17 (May 7, 2018)

I visited the Israeli Krav Maga school today in Cherry Hill.  Great place.  David Kahn is one of the instructors there.  My Wing Chun Sifu from the Moy Yat lineage recommends Krav for learning self defense attributes.  He likes the system.

I thought this guy really makes great points about it:


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## drop bear (May 7, 2018)

There are so many falacies in that video.

Ok. The big one. 

I get that in a street fight your order of priorities might change. So lets say I have a guy sitting on me in a jujitsu match my aim is to reverse that position and do a submission.

Where lets say in a street fight my aim is to stand up pull out a mobile phone and ring the police.

The fundamental dynamics of fighting dont change with the change in priorities. I still have to be able to exert my will on a person who wants to exert their will on me.

To justify a system you need evidence of being able to do that.

This is why boxing that has a completely different focus to jujitsu are both seen as effective self defence. Because they can provide this evidence.

If you can't provide that then every piece of clever logic  you are using doesn't matter.


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## drop bear (May 7, 2018)

Training whether it be self defence or sport should look like two people actually trying to win.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1435482373223699


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## macher (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I visited the Israeli Krav Maga school today in Cherry Hill.  Great place.  David Kahn is one of the instructors there.  My Wing Chun Sifu from the Moy Yat lineage recommends Krav for learning self defense attributes.  He likes the system.
> 
> I thought this guy really makes great points about it:



I do t think David Kahn is there often though?

To me Krav Maga is very practical  for self defense. Another system I see practical is Dirty Boxing.


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> To me Krav Maga is very practical for self defense. Another system I see practical is Dirty Boxing.




Just about all systems are good for self defence BUT it depends who is teaching, how it's taught and how you practice. The same goes for KM, if it's not taught properly and the practice is sloppy then it's not going to be any good. 
You can have KM 'McDojos' just the same as any other style, where the instructor has done a weekend course and thinks he can now teach the world.

The best advice is always caveat emptor.


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## macher (May 8, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Just about all systems are good for self defence BUT it depends who is teaching, how it's taught and how you practice. The same goes for KM, if it's not taught properly and the practice is sloppy then it's not going to be any good.
> You can have KM 'McDojos' just the same as any other style, where the instructor has done a weekend course and thinks he can now teach the world.
> 
> The best advice is always caveat emptor.



While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.



The longer length of time means that you learn it so you can use it instinctively when needed. Self defence only works when you can do it without thinking, standing there when it's looks like you are about to be attacked wondering what you instructor said you should do is just not going to work. Longer is often better.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

They spar at this Mrav school once a week.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> I do t think David Kahn is there often though?
> 
> To me Krav Maga is very practical  for self defense. Another system I see practical is Dirty Boxing.



It’s very practical and essentially is mixed martial arts.  Israeli Krav such as this school borrows from various arts.  You’ll never be extremely good at one thing, but it covers a good overall area.

Krav removes the sport element and just focuses on developing self defense attributes rapidly.

Also, the vast majority of people you would potentially encounter will not be good fighters.  

In MMA, you’re training for a specific fight with a specific opponent in a controlled environment in a weight class.  Don’t get me wrong, MMA is incredible for sport and learning how to fight.


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## macher (May 8, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> The longer length of time means that you learn it so you can use it instinctively when needed. Self defence only works when you can do it without thinking, standing there when it's looks like you are about to be attacked wondering what you instructor said you should do is just not going to work. Longer is often better.



That’s why sparring is important. And I mean sparring against different arts not the art you’re training in. We used to spar against boxers.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

“Of course a proficient MMA fighter will beat the crap out of someone who only trains KM. I would certainly hope so. In MMA you are training to overcome other highly trained individuals. In KM you are training to defend yourself against untrained attackers. Military KM originated as a system to quickly train soldiers with simple, gross motor fighting skills where aggression can cover up technical deficiencies under stress and combat conditions. Similarly, civilian KM aims to give regular people simple, principle-based fighting skills to defend themselves against untrained attackers, where aggression and relentlessness can cover up technical gaps under stressful conditions.

Systems oriented towards competition between highly trained practitioners =/= systems oriented towards training novices to defend themselves against untrained attackers. One is not better or worse than the other. Each has certain advantages and certain drawbacks. 99% of the arguments claiming 1 side is better than the other are simply dick waving and ego insecurities.

What I find irritating is the false dichotomy between "bro MMA is better" and "bro RBSD/KM is better w/o ur sport techniquez". KM is a system of principles and a mindset, above all else. The core of the system (striking, grappling, ground) is simply MMA and other martial arts tweaked for self defense. In a military metaphor, KM at its essence is a strategy that guides _how_ you fight. The strikes, techniques, etc that you use are the tactics - _what_ you fight with. One practitioner may have a boxing centric style, one may have a MT inspired style, another may have a throwing/grappling inspired style. As long as they're adhering to the core principles of KM - the strategic essence - none of them are any less "genuine" KM practitioners than the other. There is nothing unique to KM and never has been, from day 1. Imi Lichtenfeld was a boxer and wrestler, and his earliest black belts began incorporating judo and jujitsu to their styles as well. From there, it has developed and adapted with the times. Any good KM practitioner is always looking to MMA and other martial arts, whether "sport" or "traditional", for inspiration to improve their game.

As far as the compliance, sparring etc that is a quality of an individual school/instructor vs KM itself. Any good school will utilize resistance, standup and ground sparring, and emphasize the situational validity of any technique rather than claiming x technique is a universal guarantee of success.”


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

You can make any system work if trained the right way against resisting opponents.  Compared to traditional martial arts though, I feel Krav gives you more of a blend of techniques being it is a hybrid system.

Think of how many guys are to this day trying to get Wing Chun to work only using Wing Chun attributes.  Then look at Krav which uses far more movements from different disciplines and it opens up a lot more potential.

What are the chances you are going to face a 5th degree black belt in BJJ on the street?  Also do you really want to go to the ground?  Sure in a ring no problem.  

Everyone is selling a system or program.  There seems to be a new one every day.  MMA is proven and works.  There is no doubt about that but Krav is MMA.  It’s MMA for the street IMO.


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> You can make any system work if trained the right way against resisting opponents.  Compared to traditional martial arts though, I feel Krav gives you more of a blend of techniques being it is a hybrid system.
> 
> Think of how many guys are to this day trying to get Wing Chun to work only using Wing Chun attributes.  Then look at Krav which uses far more movements from different disciplines and it opens up a lot more potential.
> 
> ...


There's so much wrong with this.

All ma are only as Useful as the attributes you have, Training will increase those attributes, timing fitness speed strength, your going to be much more able to defend yourself just on those counts alone.

Any well instructed ma should have you much better at self defense by the time you leave white belt, let's say 6 to 12 months. I can see absolutely no reason why someone who spend a 6 months do km, will be any better prepared than some one doing say karate, gross motor skills take that sort of time to develop.

You can if course spend 12months doing either and not be in any position to defend yourself against a strong fast and determine attacker, oh can spend your whole life trying to learn, but if you lack the physical attributes of the attacker you will probably l ose.

This is less true of mma, which has a filter, in that you get beaten to a pulp if your no good, so people give it up quickly if they are lacking, or just do the training, in which case they are no better or worse than if they did any other art.

A lot of street people are good at fighting, they get this skill because they fight a lot, they may also be very fit and strong, they will make mince meat of you unless you can match them in this.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

LOL ok.  To each their own. 

As I said, look how many people are trying to make traditional systems like Wing Chun work.  And I think that’s a great thing to do.  But with some of these traditional systems like Chun, you’re starting off with a particular system that is inherently limited where as Krav is giving you striking, ground, weapons and street defense.  So to me you’re starting with a hybrid system that initially starts you off with more options.


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> LOL ok.  To each their own.
> 
> As I said, look how many people are trying to make traditional systems like Wing Chun work.  And I think that’s a great thing to do.  But with some of these traditional systems like Chun, you’re starting off with a particular system that is inherently limited where as Krav is giving you striking, ground, weapons and street defense.  So to me you’re starting with a hybrid system that initially starts you off with more options.


Wing chUn is a special case, you can't use it to smear all arts as inherently flawed


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I visited the Israeli Krav Maga school today in Cherry Hill.  Great place.  David Kahn is one of the instructors there.  My Wing Chun Sifu from the Moy Yat lineage recommends Krav for learning self defense attributes.  He likes the system.
> 
> I thought this guy really makes great points about it:


With out watching, I've never seen an attack launched from that position, kneeling on the ground, why would you kneEl there?  but that said if you were to find yourself with your attacker kneeling between your legs, Wrapping your legs round him and covering your face is a waist of time, as he will be punching you in the groin


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.


I think you've read too much KM marketing material. Most TMA do get to application pretty quickly. The main difference, in what I've seen, is that TMA are designed to hold interest for a long period of time (to keep people practicing and improving). To that end, they tend to include material for long-term study, as well as the essential basics. From what I'm seeing in KM videos, KM is heading that way, too, and it's neither unpredictable nor really a bad thing. If you develop a system people can become competent in within a few weeks, people stop training sooner and don't reach the levels of long-term retention they could.


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## wab25 (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Also, the vast majority of people you would potentially encounter will not be good fighters.


I am not a fan of this argument. If the guy attacking you is really that bad, then a few jumping jacks, sit ups and push ups should be good. 

The guy on the street attacking you, has probably done this before. He is attacking you in a way that has worked for him in the past. It is very likely it will work again. Sure, he is completely "untrained." But, what he is doing, he learned to do in the "street." He learned how to do this by doing it to people that did not want it done to them. He has probably done this to other guys trying to do their thing to him. He might not have gone to a dojo... But every time he tried it, it was on the "street," for real, with real consequences.

I think we are the ones with the fantasies. We go into a dojo or gym, we have some instruction and we try a few times. We work with people who want us to succeed, who don't really want to hurt us and we all expect to go home safe and sound. The fantasy part is where we think that makes us ready for the "untrained" guy on the street. That guy only knows 2 moves. But see those 2 moves he knows, puts people down for real, on the streets. 

We need to train harder. We need to test ourselves better. But we also need to know better who we are. I am a guy that works in an office, and trains a few hours a week, with people that don't really want to hurt me. (even if I am sparring, rolling, doing situational drills, multiple attacker, weapon work... they still want me to go home alright) KM wants you to be safe at the end of class as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> With out watching, I've never seen an attack launched from that position, kneeling on the ground, why would you kneEl there?  but that said if you were to find yourself with your attacker kneeling between your legs, Wrapping your legs round him and covering your face is a waist of time, as he will be punching you in the groin


Firstly, that wouldn't be a starting point for any attack - that's a position you might find yourself in later. And the video at that point is actually talking about BJJ. Oh, and the groin isn't all that exposed there, in actual practice.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

Good points.  MMA is fantastic. I don’t think there is a better way to learn how to fight.  Traditional arts are good too.  It really is how you train.

Not all Krav is the same.  You ideally want instructors that have trained in Israel.  This school encorporates BJJ into their curriculum.


I really haven’t bought into KM marketing.  I do know though that this school is top notch. 
http://www.israelikrav.com/


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

wab25 said:


> I am not a fan of this argument. If the guy attacking you is really that bad, then a few jumping jacks, sit ups and push ups should be good.
> 
> The guy on the street attacking you, has probably done this before. He is attacking you in a way that has worked for him in the past. It is very likely it will work again. Sure, he is completely "untrained." But, what he is doing, he learned to do in the "street." He learned how to do this by doing it to people that did not want it done to them. He has probably done this to other guys trying to do their thing to him. He might not have gone to a dojo... But every time he tried it, it was on the "street," for real, with real consequences.
> 
> ...


I think that's not a common case, either. For most men, the most common fight/attack threat is an angry man, not an experienced thug carefully choosing his fights. Angry men come in all sizes and skill levels, with a small proportion (probably smaller than the general population) being well trained and another small proportion (probably larger than the general population) having significant experience in being in fights.

The selection of a victim is a different dynamic, and is more about a surge attack, which will have different dynamics from a fight. This is far more common for women than the first scenario, but is probably not going to involve an experienced street fighter (different dynamic), but someone who has "done the math" and decided they have enough of an advantage to go for it.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Good points.  MMA is fantastic. I don’t think there is a better way to learn how to fight.  Traditional arts are good too.  It really is how you train.
> 
> Not all Krav is the same.  You ideally want instructors that have trained in Israel.  This school encorporates BJJ into their curriculum.
> 
> http://www.israelikrav.com/


I'm not at all a fan of "they should be trained in X country" for any art. I've heard that argument for many years in Japanese MA. I've only ever seen any real evidence of it when an art is fairly new and there's not yet much instruction outside that country.


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Firstly, that wouldn't be a starting point for any attack - that's a position you might find yourself in later. And the video at that point is actually talking about BJJ. Oh, and the groin isn't all that exposed there, in actual practice.


Not exposed how exactly, the groin extends a fair way up you know, you don't need to be able to hit the genitals to cause a lot of damage


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Good points.  MMA is fantastic. I don’t think there is a better way to learn how to fight.  Traditional arts are good too.  It really is how you train.
> 
> Not all Krav is the same.  You ideally want instructors that have trained in Israel.  This school encorporates BJJ into their curriculum.
> 
> ...


Why is Israeli Km, better exactly, did it tell you that in the booklet?


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

Everything is great and works, but also sucks and is ineffective.  

Lately I’ve been watching some of Nick Drossos videos.  Some good tips.

At the MMA school I am attending we spar a lot.  The instructor is big on sparring.  Of the hour class, 20-30 minutes is sparring.  It’s really the only way you learn how to fight.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Why is Israeli Km, better exactly, did it tell you that in the booklet?



No David Kahn suggested it and he was I believe referring to quality control.

David Kahn

I believe he said this during an interview.  I can see his point as Krav is popping up all over the place AKA Fitness Krav.  It’s watered down.

All these guys think their way is best.  My instructor was a Marine and grew up with Karate.  He got away from Karate because he didn’t like how they were giving everyone black belts like candy so he took up MT and BJJ.  His karate, according to him, is top notch.  Lot of sparring.


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.



If you want to claim that Krav Maga is a good system, I have no problem with that.  I know nothing about the method, so I am willing to take your word for it.

When you start elevating it above all others by saying things like
“ it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA”, well no, you are wrong.

If you like it and you feel it is effective, then by all means you should do it.  You do not need to justify that to us or anyone else.  But that is where it ends.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Not exposed how exactly, the groin extends a fair way up you know, you don't need to be able to hit the genitals to cause a lot of damage


Someone in that position isn't likely to be upright. In most cases, they'll be leaning forward on the attack, which makes getting any solid strike at their groin problematic.

EDIT: And you'd be on your back, defending - not much leverage or maneuverability to get a good strike in.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

We use gloves at the MMA gym.  In Krav they teach with gloves but also lots of palm strikes.

Here is a scenario at one Krav school (not the one I visited).  I don’t see how this is not good training?  Full strength in wrestling just not punching.

“Tonight we ran, what in my humble opinion, was a great drill in our ground class. The defender would get on the ground and 1 attacker would put him in any type of ground control desired - side control, mount, scarf hold, etc. After 5 seconds of trying to get up/reverse a 2nd attacker would with 16oz gloves would start hitting the defender.

This completely changed the game for me. Instead of wrestling attacker #1 I had to position myself to reduce strikes to vulnerable areas like my head and try and keep the 2nd guy at bay until I could break out. I didn't have time to play chess w/attacker #1 I had to minimize damage while controlling the access attacker #2 had AND try and escape.

We did this at full strength wrestling power but very limited punching power.

Also I had an epiphany when I was attacker #1. Instead of defeating the defender on my own my goal was to get the defender in a vulnerable position so that my buddy attacker #2 could wail on his face.

Some really good lessons learned tonight. I look forward to doing this drill again. And again w/weapons.”


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Someone in that position isn't likely to be upright. In most cases, they'll be leaning forward on the attack, which makes getting any solid strike at their groin problematic.
> 
> EDIT: And you'd be on your back, defending - not much leverage or maneuverability to get a good strike in.


I'm confused now, the guy kneeling is Or can easily be up right and we'll with in range of the probes guys groin. the prOne guy is covering his face, which is pretty much out of range anyway, if you can't get good leverage on the groin, the AbS ,make a tempting tarket,


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> No David Kahn suggested it and he was I believe referring to quality control.
> 
> David Kahn
> 
> ...


Your not telling me why quality cControl is better in Israel? Just stating that it is, you do know that km, wasn't invented in Israel don't you


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm confused now, the guy kneeling is Or can easily be up right and we'll with in range of the probes guys groin. the prOne guy is covering his face, which is pretty much out of range anyway, if you can't get good leverage on the groin, the AbS ,make a tempting tarket,


Why would he be upright? What would be his reason for sitting up like that? And if he's leaning forward, you won't have much power to hit his abs, either.

It's not that these aren't good options when they present, but I've heard far too many SD-focused folks (including some of my training partners over the years) refer to these as easy answers to mount. Even an untrained person in mount is not likely to sit up and give you good access to strong strikes to those areas, unless he's doing something that makes sitting up useful, like bashing you (at which point, it's difficult to pull off those power strikes from your back). That's why escape and control techniques are useful. I can sometimes get the person in mount to give me access to those strikes if I make them avoid my escape and control techniques. Of course, more often, I'll actually get the escape or control the technique is designed for.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

jobo, yes I do know that.  Again I don’t know I’m going by what he said.  Quite frankly I don’t care.  QC is an issue within any art.


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Why would he be upright? What would be his reason for sitting up like that? And if he's leaning forward, you won't have much power to hit his abs, either.
> 
> It's not that these aren't good options when they present, but I've heard far too many SD-focused folks (including some of my training partners over the years) refer to these as easy answers to mount. Even an untrained person in mount is not likely to sit up and give you good access to strong strikes to those areas, unless he's doing something that makes sitting up useful, like bashing you (at which point, it's difficult to pull off those power strikes from your back). That's why escape and control techniques are useful. I can sometimes get the person in mount to give me access to those strikes if I make them avoid my escape and control techniques. Of course, more often, I'll actually get the escape or control the technique is designed for.


I really am confused now, are we discussing the same thing? The guy kneeling would be upright so he can punch the guy lying down in the groin and or abs, there no point trying head shorts, it's nearly out of range and he has his hands on the way


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> jobo, yes I do know that.  Again I don’t know I’m going by what he said.  Quite frankly I don’t care.  QC is an issue within any art.


But he is selling you something, he told you and you with out question tell us as a fact


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> I really am confused now, are we discussing the same thing? The guy kneeling would be upright so he can punch the guy lying down in the groin and or abs, there no point trying head shorts, it's nearly out of range and he has his hands on the way


Try it. He won't be entirely upright - he has to lean in to get power to those strikes, which occludes the abs and reduces the exposed groin. If he leans in further (for control, strangles, elbows), the groin is even less exposed. And all of that also puts you in a position where strikes are weak, and a weak strike to the groin (especially when the testicles are not available) is unlikely to be very effective.


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Try it. He won't be entirely upright - he has to lean in to get power to those strikes, which occludes the abs and reduces the exposed groin. If he leans in further (for control, strangles, elbows), the groin is even less exposed. And all of that also puts you in a position where strikes are weak, and a weak strike to the groin (especially when the testicles are not available) is unlikely to be very effective.


I've just looked at the picture again, there is no impediment to a groin strike, it doesn't need to be all that hard to be effective, though you could generate a fair but if power just with a hammer strike


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> But he is selling you something, he told you and you with out question tell us as a fact


 
Let me clarify.  I don’t believe that in order to have good Krav the instructors have to be from Israel. I’m sure he too knows there are many other non Israeli instructors that are fantastic.  I believe I heard this in an interview where he had mentioned that a good sign to look for is someone that has had some training there or with someone that did train there in the Israeli KM system.  If I am wrong I apologize but that is what I believe he said.


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## jobo (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Let me clarify.  I don’t believe that in order to have good Krav the instructors have to be from Israel. I’m sure he too knows there are many other non Israeli instructors that are fantastic.  I believe I heard this in an interview where he had mentioned that a good sign to look for is someone that has had some training there or with someone that did train there in the Israeli KM system.  If I am wrong I apologize but that is what I believe he said.


I'm sure he did, and that's his ( biased) opinion, but that doesn't make it a fact


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## wab25 (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> jobo, yes I do know that.  Again I don’t know I’m going by what he said.  Quite frankly I don’t care.  QC is an issue within any art.


Yes, QC is hard for any art. But, to me, the biggest problem with KM is the QC. The clip that started this thread, began with some guy being introduced with his belt rank in KM. They needed to tell us, that he was a second degree black belt in KM. Then at the end, they wanted to sell me an online KM instruction course membership, from which I can earn belt ranks.

I know of and have been invited to pay for weekend long seminars, where I could learn KM and earn my KM instructors license in the same 3 day, weekend seminar. I have been to KM seminars where they taught us the "KM gun disarm." The same one you can easily find on youtube. This disarm will get you killed, as you never move off line, and you put yourself in the weaker position and the other guy in the strong position... lots wrong with this disarm. However, if you hunt around and find the KM gun disarm taught by one of the original KM guys, you see something entirely different... something that only vaguely resembles the "KM gun disarm," as commonly taught. This gun disarm addresses every issue, move off line, get behind, put yourself in the superior position... all the things the other guys not only don't do, but teach you not to do. 

Every art has this issue. But, to continue to spread your art by weekend seminar and online video courses... you are asking for QC issues. As a student, you are likely being taught mediocre TKD, Karate, Jujitsu, kick boxing.... mixed with what some guy (who only has mediocre abilities in an art he studied years for) can pick up in a weekend. 

I have respect for the real KM. I am sure it is effective. Its just very hard to find the real deal from the Crap Maga.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

wab25, I agree with you and that’s just awful.  That really gives it a bad name and takes away from the good KM.


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## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

The school I visited has instructors that trained under David Kahn.

They even emphasize on their website that “Because not all Krav Maga is the same...”






http://www.israelikrav.com/


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## Tez3 (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> They even emphasize on their website that “Because not all Krav Maga is the same...”



Doesn't mean theirs is the good one though.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> I've just looked at the picture again, there is no impediment to a groin strike, it doesn't need to be all that hard to be effective, though you could generate a fair but if power just with a hammer strike


Yeah, in the picture, he's not doing anything.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Let me clarify.  I don’t believe that in order to have good Krav the instructors have to be from Israel. I’m sure he too knows there are many other non Israeli instructors that are fantastic.  I believe I heard this in an interview where he had mentioned that a good sign to look for is someone that has had some training there or with someone that did train there in the Israeli KM system.  If I am wrong I apologize but that is what I believe he said.


That would be fine if there was good evidence that Israel only produces good KM instructors. My experience is it's never uniform like that.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> They spar at this Mrav school once a week.



Yeah I saw some of it and the sparring looks ok.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> It’s very practical and essentially is mixed martial arts.  Israeli Krav such as this school borrows from various arts.  You’ll never be extremely good at one thing, but it covers a good overall area.
> 
> Krav removes the sport element and just focuses on developing self defense attributes rapidly.
> 
> ...



you saw the video of our school doing jits In this thread?

Does that look like training for a specific opponant ina controlled environment in a weight class?

I know people say that. But most of the training really isn't that.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> While I agree but if KM is taught right IMO it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA because you start applying what you’re learning right away. I never got this from traditional MA except years ago when I trained with a guy who blended western boxing with Bagua AKA Bagua Boxing. Not saying that with TMA you can’t but most of the time it takes a lot longer than the likes of KM.



How do you define longer to use though?


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

jobo said:


> Not exposed how exactly, the groin extends a fair way up you know, you don't need to be able to hit the genitals to cause a lot of damage







There was a video in relation to this where people tested actually groin hits during arm bars and such. And if you are about to win the groin shot doesn't deter that much.

which i can't find.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> We use gloves at the MMA gym.  In Krav they teach with gloves but also lots of palm strikes.
> 
> Here is a scenario at one Krav school (not the one I visited).  I don’t see how this is not good training?  Full strength in wrestling just not punching.
> 
> ...



Can you do me a favor? Do that same drill in your mma class.


----------



## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Can you do me a favor? Do that same drill in your mma class.



That Krav video of them sparring is another school close by that is run by a guy that trained at the IKMA school in Cherry Hill.  He was an MMA fighter I believe. He teaches at Mission MMA.

What would be the purpose of doing that same exact drill at the MMA school?  Just asking.  You're changing the dynamic of the group by doing so from being attacked by a bunch of trained MMA fighters to what you'd normally see in a real life scenario.  Of course how hard they go at it would also change a lot of things too.


----------



## TMA17 (May 8, 2018)

This guy is good:


----------



## jobo (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, in the picture, he's not doing anything.


If course he isnt, it's a piCture, people are still in pictures.


----------



## macher (May 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah I saw some of it and the sparring looks ok.



I like how he says don’t stay on the ground.


----------



## macher (May 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> How do you define longer to use though?



You learn a technique or form then learn how to apply it right away. Same way you would do in boxing with focus gloves, sparring etc.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> You learn a technique or form then learn how to apply it right away. Same way you would do in boxing with focus gloves, sparring etc.


I don't think that's anything different from most TMA.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> That Krav video of them sparring is another school close by that is run by a guy that trained at the IKMA school in Cherry Hill.  He was an MMA fighter I believe. He teaches at Mission MMA.
> 
> What would be the purpose of doing that same exact drill at the MMA school?  Just asking.  You're changing the dynamic of the group by doing so from being attacked by a bunch of trained MMA fighters to what you'd normally see in a real life scenario.  Of course how hard they go at it would also change a lot of things too.



Normally you will get guys who know what they are doing who generally jump at the chance to throw an unfair beat down on a guy.

Which is the best way to train.

Because it looks like 2 people (or in this case 3 people) trying to win.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> You learn a technique or form then learn how to apply it right away. Same way you would do in boxing with focus gloves, sparring etc.



So say for boxing if I can jump in the ring against a similarly experienced boxer. My boxing probably works. It is at least functional.

Takes us about 3 months by the way.

So for krav you would..........?


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

macher said:


> I like how he says don’t stay on the ground.



I didn't by the way. As he just stood up. For our drills the guy will try to drag me back down forcing me to knee ride of forearm grind up.

There is this whole dynamic of this halfway up fighting to get free that they are missing there.


----------



## drop bear (May 8, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> This guy is good:



My view by the way. And this is with technically competent krav.

90% of their energy is focused on 10% of the fight.

So let's say we look at gun disarming. How much time training it to how likely you will ever be able to make that work.

Which is also the street sport argument that sport systems don't spend any energy on that 10%


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I didn't by the way. As he just stood up. For our drills the guy will try to drag me back down forcing me to knee ride of forearm grind up.
> 
> There is this whole dynamic of this halfway up fighting to get free that they are missing there.


I've seen a bit of that over the years in SD training. The assumption that the attacker can't continue the attack at given points. A dangerous assumption.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> My view by the way. And this is with technically competent krav.
> 
> 90% of their energy is focused on 10% of the fight.
> 
> ...


Once you have the basic principles and techniques, I don't think it takes all that much training to shift to that context and work on the problems there.


----------



## Headhunter (May 8, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not at all a fan of "they should be trained in X country" for any art. I've heard that argument for many years in Japanese MA. I've only ever seen any real evidence of it when an art is fairly new and there's not yet much instruction outside that country.


Yeah I don't like that either. To me it's a case of "grass is always greener syndrome" you think because it's from another country especially the country it's founded that means the training is going to be better. Not the case at all. I mean yeah okay some places will be better than what you're doing but some will be worse as well same as any other country.


----------



## Headhunter (May 8, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> If you want to claim that Krav Maga is a good system, I have no problem with that.  I know nothing about the method, so I am willing to take your word for it.
> 
> When you start elevating it above all others by saying things like
> “ it’s  one of the most practical means of self defense compared to traditional MA”, well no, you are wrong.
> ...


Yeah I mean I've been doing it since February and I do enjoy it and yes I think it is effective but you can't call it better than traditional styles because there's a lot of traditional styles in Krav Maga. I see a lot in Krav I've seen in other places. Literally there's a headlock defence that's almost exactly the same as the kenpo technique grip of defence it's almost move the move same technique. Almost their defence against a roundhouse guy is the Muay Thai shield.


----------



## TMA17 (May 9, 2018)

MMA will produce better fighters because that's what it is based on.  I love MMA.  I guess the bottom line for me is I think Krav (good Krav) is a good system because it's a hybrid system and I like that about it.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> MMA will produce better fighters because that's what it is based on.



So what is MMA based on? MMA?
It says what it is ..... MIXED martial arts ie all the TMA's bits that work for a particular fighter are used. I've seen brilliant fighters in kick boxing and karate both full contact, I've seen brilliant fighters in MMA and Muay Thai as well as boxing. Fighters are only as good as their intelligence, drive and work effort makes them, regardless of style.


----------



## TMA17 (May 9, 2018)

Agree.  MMA gyms in particular spar heavily and that is the difference.  Styles do matter more than most would have you believe in my opinion, but the training is the single most important element.  You learn to fight by fighting.


----------



## TMA17 (May 9, 2018)

You don’t need years of training to win a bar fight.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> MMA gyms in particular spar heavily




Actually MMA fighters do not spar heavily. they train techniques, do fitness training and drill, they do not spar heavily but just lightly, it's a misconception many have. To spar heavily and be injured before a fight would be a huge mistake.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Actually MMA fighters do not spar heavily. they train techniques, do fitness training and drill, they do not spar heavily but just lightly, it's a misconception many have. To spar heavily and be injured before a fight would be a huge mistake.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

And while we are at it. Style doesn't matter?


----------



## TMA17 (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Actually MMA fighters do not spar heavily. they train techniques, do fitness training and drill, they do not spar heavily but just lightly, it's a misconception many have. To spar heavily and be injured before a fight would be a huge mistake.



Point is they do spar against resisting opponents compared to many places that do NOT  spar and have people just stand there.  That's what I was saying.  MMA gyms test you.  At the MMA gym I attend 30 minutes of the hour class is light/medium sparring.  That is where you really learn.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

i


TMA17 said:


> Point is they do spar against resisting opponents compared to many places that do NOT  spar and have people just stand there.  That's what I was saying.  MMA gyms test you.  At the MMA gym I attend 30 minutes of the hour class is light/medium sparring.  That is where you really learn.




MMA aren't always full of people who actually fight in professional MMA though. 

I'm sure plenty of people spar heavily so video proves nothing I'm talking about pro fighters who earn their living by fighting, they get injured no pay day and that's stupid.

Rousey had bad striking, bad coaching etc it wasn't the style at fault but her.


----------



## Headhunter (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> i
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ah rousey I remember when idiots like Joe rogan saying she could beat heavyweight men and is a better boxer than mayweather...I've never laughed so much reading stuff like that lol


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Ah rousey I remember when idiots like Joe rogan saying she could beat heavyweight men and is a better boxer than mayweather...I've never laughed so much reading stuff like that lol




Do be careful criticising Rousey on this site! I did once and got a load of abuse, everything from being accused of being jealous to being anti-American! All from people who think nothing of criticising fighters from both the US and other countries.


----------



## Headhunter (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Do be careful criticising Rousey on this site! I did once and got a load of abuse, everything from being accused of being jealous to being anti-American! All from people who think nothing of criticising fighters from both the US and other countries.


Meh I don't care. My motto is people give me abuse I'll give it right back. Rousey was an above average fighter but not amazing she beat a bunch of people who simply weren't that well rounded in mma. Her best opponent was miesha Tate who I think could beat her but she fought a bad strategy and tried to hard to take her down instead of boxing her. The first time she fought a high level striker she got dominated. She believed her own hype and paid for it. She's a bully she treated everyone like dirt then when she got smacked about a bit she ran away crying over it and is now doing fake wrestling. People say she built women's mma....no she didn't there were loads of women fighting before her only reason UFC made the women's division is because of her looks. If Amanda Nunez was the strike force champ when rousey was does anyone really believe Dana would've put women in the UFC


----------



## TMA17 (May 9, 2018)

Rousey's striking wasn't good enough.  She was too Judo heavy.  Was exposed by Holm.  I think Gina Carano did a lot for women's MMA, but that had more to do with looks.


----------



## TMA17 (May 9, 2018)




----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah I mean I've been doing it since February and I do enjoy it and yes I think it is effective but you can't call it better than traditional styles because there's a lot of traditional styles in Krav Maga. I see a lot in Krav I've seen in other places. Literally there's a headlock defence that's almost exactly the same as the kenpo technique grip of defence it's almost move the move same technique. Almost their defence against a roundhouse guy is the Muay Thai shield.


I think it’s valid early in an art, because of the depth of experience shared in the country of origin, as compared to someplace where there are only a few practitioners. After a while (maybe 2-3 generations of training), it becomes dramatically less true.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> i
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Team alpha male produces some pro fighters.

Rousey had a bad striking style. If she had gone to a better coach she would have gotten a better result.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think it’s valid early in an art, because of the depth of experience shared in the country of origin, as compared to someplace where there are only a few practitioners. After a while (maybe 2-3 generations of training), it becomes dramatically less true.



Country of proficiency. Which in krav has to be Israel because there is no proficiency outside the IDF.

So say we look at muay Thai. Thai, Dutch, Australian are the places to go.

They are the powerhouse countries.


----------



## Buka (May 9, 2018)

If I remember correctly, Joe Rogan never said Rousey was a better boxer than Mayweather. He said that if she ever clinched with Mayweather, he'd be taken down.

And if he was taken down, he'd be toast. There's not many things in life more fun than taking a boxer to the ground.

And personally, I think Joe Rogan knows more about MMA than anyone alive.

EDIT - and the reason that Krav works is because we, all of us here, the people who train and fight, make it work.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Buka said:


> If I remember correctly, Joe Rogan never said Rousey was a better boxer than Mayweather. He said that if she ever clinched with Mayweather, he'd be taken down.
> 
> And if he was taken down, he'd be toast. There's not many things in life more fun than taking a boxer to the ground.
> 
> ...



Yeah. You need to support a style based on its own merits.


----------



## Buka (May 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. You need to support a style based on its own merits.



Okay, sure. But I know a lot of fighters from a lot of different styles/arts that fight really well. I'm sure you do, too.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

Buka said:


> And personally, I think Joe Rogan knows more about MMA than anyone alive.




I don't, I know plenty of people who know more about MMA than he does. They've been in it longer and done more than he has.


----------



## Buka (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I don't, I know plenty of people who know more about MMA than he does. They've been in it longer and done more than he has.



I stand with what I said. Joe's only been training for forty years, so sure, older folks might have more years in. But, man, he has some serious experience.

Even if you don't like him.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

Buka said:


> I stand with what I said. Joe's only been training for forty years, so sure, older folks might have more years in. But, man, he has some serious experience.
> 
> Even if you don't like him.




I don't dislike him, it's just he's not the be all and end all of MMA knowledge sometimes he gets it very wrong. Rogan is very public, can make his voice heard and to many is the face of MMA but it doesn't mean he knows as much as others.
Rogan didn't take up karate until he was 14, competing in TKD at 19 and stopped competing at 21. That was it until 1996/7 when he started jui-jitsu. His martial arts training is not extensive and not over 40 years at all, yes he has a BJJ black belt, an admirable achievement but one that others have also achieved.

Compare that to Lee Hasdell for example. Lee Hasdell - Wikipedia


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Buka said:


> Okay, sure. But I know a lot of fighters from a lot of different styles/arts that fight really well. I'm sure you do, too.



Therefore validating their process.

Get enough fighters that fight well and you have a system.

Train the IDF. And you have you have a marketing campaign. And nine out of ten beauticians agree with me.

The point is we respond so well to these labels that we stop looking at what is actually there.

Have you ever actually tasted Evian? It is tapwater.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I don't dislike him, it's just he's not the be all and end all of MMA knowledge sometimes he gets it very wrong. Rogan is very public, can make his voice heard and to many is the face of MMA but it doesn't mean he knows as much as others.
> Rogan didn't take up karate until he was 14, competing in TKD at 19 and stopped competing at 21. That was it until 1996/7 when he started jui-jitsu. His martial arts training is not extensive and not over 40 years at all, yes he has a BJJ black belt, an admirable achievement but one that others have also achieved.
> 
> Compare that to Lee Hasdell for example. Lee Hasdell - Wikipedia



He has access to the best martial practitioners in the world. Solely to talk martial arts concepts to.

Which is hard to beat.


----------



## Tez3 (May 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> He has access to the best martial practitioners in the world. Solely to talk martial arts concepts to.
> 
> Which is hard to beat.




Are you saying talking beats actually doing? Not like you to say something like that.

It would only be hard to beat if he actually listened though, he's fond of his own voice.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Are you saying talking beats actually doing? Not like you to say something like that.
> 
> It would only be hard to beat if he actually listened though, he's fond of his own voice.



To a certain degree because of the depth of information gained.

Doing is anecdotal. You see this with historical medicine a bit. They gained their knowlege from doing but they also have massive anecdotal gaps in their knowledge.

So what they do works but can also just walk into crazy town.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (May 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Country of proficiency. Which in krav has to be Israel because there is no proficiency outside the IDF.
> 
> So say we look at muay Thai. Thai, Dutch, Australian are the places to go.
> 
> They are the powerhouse countries.


That's a reasonable approach. I don't know, though, that it's that simple to identify where the proficiency is outside competition styles. Is there more proficiency in Israel than in the US in Krav? I'm not sure how we'd figure that out. There might actually be more people working, exchanging ideas, and developing the system in the US.


----------



## drop bear (May 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's a reasonable approach. I don't know, though, that it's that simple to identify where the proficiency is outside competition styles. Is there more proficiency in Israel than in the US in Krav? I'm not sure how we'd figure that out. There might actually be more people working, exchanging ideas, and developing the system in the US.



With krav mostly you wouldn't know.


----------



## Tez3 (May 10, 2018)

Purely as a matter of interest, US troops have been on exercise in Israel this week with their Israeli counterparts, at the end of course the US troops had a go at KM. There is a video if I can separate it from where I saw it!


----------



## Tez3 (May 10, 2018)

The Us troops enjoying KM D) is on the IDF Facebook page if anyone wants to look, I can't 'take it' off, being a computer klutz.


----------



## TMA17 (May 10, 2018)

David added a lot more grappling into the IKMA curriculum.  Most Krav has some ground defenses but it’s not as extensive as IKMA.


----------



## Kababayan (May 10, 2018)

I don't know if my comment pertains to this post, as I haven't read all of the continuing comments here, but the last few were commenting about the US troops training with the IDF.  Krav Maga was intended to be a 20 or 40 hour crash-course for the Israeli Army (if I remember correctly), somewhat similar to the Marine Martial Arts Course.   I may be wrong about how many hours (I used to know) but it was intended to be simple and effective techniques that anyone can learn. I think one Krav instructor in New York still teaches Krav as it was intended to be learned.


----------



## TMA17 (May 10, 2018)

“David strictly adheres to IKMA guidelines following Grand Master Gidon's (Imi's chosen successor) teachings. The IKMA guidelines are different than any other krav maga association's guidelines. I have seen the IKMA curriculum and it does not resemble any of the other splinter groups it is always under review and updated. Remember, every other krav maga association came from the IKMA with the exception of the so-called "Commando Krav Maga." The Grandmaster was chosen to continue Krav maga's growth and evolution. David was chosen to be the US representative to further it along.”

From another blog fwiw.


----------



## Kababayan (May 10, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> “David strictly adheres to IKMA guidelines following Grand Master Gidon's (Imi's chosen successor) teachings. The IKMA guidelines are different than any other krav maga association's guidelines. I have seen the IKMA curriculum and it does not resemble any of the other splinter groups it is always under review and updated.



To be fair, there are a lot of organizations that claim that Imi chose theirs as the successor organization.  It's my understanding that Imi gave a few people permission to continue teaching the system.  He gave Darren Levine, GM Gidon, and other 1st generation instructors permission.  I think they are all valid (if they are the big four).  Regarding IKMA's curriculum being different than any other organizations, after six years I haven't seen much of a difference between the three organizations that I regularly train with (IKMA, IKMF, and KMWW.) Most techniques and principles are very similar, if not the same.  The IKMF school that I train at will occasionally comment that the KMWW school is more focused on fitness, but I haven't found that to be the case.  Both schools do intense high-stress scenario training and bag work.


----------



## Martial D (May 12, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> Actually MMA fighters do not spar heavily. they train techniques, do fitness training and drill, they do not spar heavily but just lightly, it's a misconception many have. To spar heavily and be injured before a fight would be a huge mistake.


True story. Although some MMA schools still spar hard as a part of their training, more and more they are realizing that the kind of mileage and accumulated damage that results from too much hard contact  hurts their fighters more than helps them. A good example is AKA, while producing good fighters, they often pull out of fights due to training injuries and their fighters(with exceptions) tend to have shorter careers than camps that use a more modern style of training.

At our school, we don't spar 100% ever as part of training. Sure we do it after class for fun sometimes...but thats another story lol.


----------



## Tez3 (May 12, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Sure we do it after class for fun sometimes...but thats another story lol.




You always have to make time for fun!


----------



## TMA17 (May 13, 2018)

I forget the context of it, but I was watching a fighter talk about how heavy sparring takes its toll on you.  Even sparring 2x a week is not good for your brain.  You have to pay to play but comes with a price.


----------



## macher (May 13, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> I forget the context of it, but I was watching a fighter talk about how heavy sparring takes its toll on you.  Even sparring 2x a week is not good for your brain.  You have to pay to play but comes with a price.


 
Yea heavy sparring  can. That why I only spar at 20%.


----------



## TMA17 (May 13, 2018)

macher said:


> Yea heavy sparring  can. That why I only spar at 20%.




Nice.  That's a smart move.


----------



## FriedRice (Jun 25, 2018)

Krav Maga is basically MMA Lite with good weapons training.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 25, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga is basically MMA Lite with good weapons training.



Nah. The basic training methodology is different.

Even if I had a guy who never wanted to be punched in the face. He would still be around guys who have been.


----------



## Anarax (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga is basically MMA Lite with good weapons training.



If you mean sport MMA then there's a big difference. MMA teaches you to fight trained opponents. What weapon training are you referring to? Weapon use? Weapon Defense?


----------



## Martial D (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga is basically MMA Lite with good weapons training.


This is true. Pretty much the same, with the small exceptions of how they train, what they train, their objectives and their strategies. Other than that, ya..the same.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga is basically MMA Lite with good weapons training.


I don't see that, unless we use the term "MMA lite" to refer to anything that mixes material from different sources. If we do that, your statement applies to almost every school I've ever walked into.


----------



## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Nah. The basic training methodology is different.
> 
> Even if I had a guy who never wanted to be punched in the face. He would still be around guys who have been.



At Level 1 for the noobs, it's very chaotic.....seemingly, to get people excited to sign that 1 year contract at $100-200/month.   But at Level 2 (aside from the weapons training), it starts turning into more technical Muay Thai + BJJ, which is basically what most mainstream MMA is.  And Level 2 is when most people don't renew their contract. Level 3 and up, the hand to hand, progress much more in terms of technical MMA with harder contact, etc.

In general, it's basically MMA Lite mostly for people who aren't ready for full MMA, as it's much rougher contact there. Not saying that you can't get as tough as MMA in Krav, but it takes longer.


----------



## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> If you mean sport MMA then there's a big difference. MMA teaches you to fight trained opponents.



What level are you in Krav Maga?



> What weapon training are you referring to? Weapon use? Weapon Defense?



Weapons defense and offense.


----------



## Martial D (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga...
> 
> 
> ...technical Muay Thai + BJJ, .



If there is any connection between these things where and how you train krav,  you have been fortunate. This is certainly not my experience.


----------



## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

Martial D said:


> If there is any connection between these things where and how you train krav,  you have been fortunate. This is certainly not my experience.



I think I know exactly what you mean.

I actually like Krav and have trained at different Federations....so I think that this would be the answer. Krav has various Federations that each gym belongs to and subscribe by their rules. Some Feds, they wear Karate looking gi's with belts and it looks a lot like Karate....afterall, Krav is mostly just copying other styles' techniques. 

The Krav gym that I trained the most at, was under the Alliance Federation. IMO, this is the most legit one with their toughest criteria towards earning a Black Belt is to have video proof of being in a full contact, timed, ring or cage fight for KO or submission. So no BS, constant start & stop type, light contact fighting. The guy I trained Krav under, was a legit Muay Thai fighter and a pretty good Boxer. That gym also had a legit MMA program with Ammy and Pro Fighters, and a local, Pro multiple title holder. These fighters didn't train in the Krav class though, haha. Their BJJ program was legit also with Black Belts and competition team as well as a Muay Thai team. Krav was just their biggest money maker....I trained mostly for the weapons aspect, and there were lots of pretty girls to look at in the L1 classes. There were some decent dudes who can bang at L3 and above, well more like 1 guy and mostly b/c he was big dude.


----------



## Anarax (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> What level are you in Krav Maga?



Neither of our ranks changes Krav Maga's content. Krav is a Self Defense system at heart and teaches you exactly that, Self-Defense. Your standard Krav class won't teach how to deal with complex attacks from trained combatants.



FriedRice said:


> Weapons defense and offense.


I know they teach basic weapon defense(gun disarms, knife defenses, etc), but what weapon offense training have you received? I really am curious. 



FriedRice said:


> IMO, this is the most legit one with their toughest criteria towards earning a Black Belt is to have video proof of being in a full contact, timed, ring or cage fight for KO or submission. So no BS, constant start & stop type, light contact fighting.


Just because certain training methods aren't for you doesn't mean they're BS. Quick explosive short sparring intervals have there use, the same goes for light-moderate contact. Anderson Silva spars light with an emphasis on technique and positioning. Hard sparring has it's place too, but there's a line between sparring hard and sparring recklessly.



FriedRice said:


> The guy I trained Krav under, was a legit Muay Thai fighter and a pretty good Boxer. That gym also had a legit MMA program with Ammy and Pro Fighters, and a local, Pro multiple title holder. These fighters didn't train in the Krav class though, haha. Their BJJ program was legit also with Black Belts and competition team as well as a Muay Thai team. Krav was just their biggest money maker....I trained mostly for the weapons aspect


Okay, I can kind of see where you're coming from now. Just because you KM instructor has a background in something and incorporates it into the KM class doesn't mean it's automatically part of that style's curriculum. For example, my Filipino MA instructor has a background in wrestling and he taught us single and double leg take-downs. However, that doesn't mean that FMA in general has single/double leg take-downs. I think some of the confusion from you "MMA Lite" comment is your basing it off of your KM class opposed to the more common and widespread KM curriculum.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Okay, I can kind of see where you're coming from now. Just because you KM instructor has a background in something and incorporates it into the KM class doesn't mean it's automatically part of that style's curriculum. For example, my Filipino MA instructor has a background in wrestling and he taught us single and double leg take-downs. However, that doesn't mean that FMA in general has single/double leg take-downs. I think some of the confusion from you "MMA Lite" comment is your basing it off of your KM class opposed to the more common and widespread KM curriculum.


This was my reaction, too.

@FriedRice What you describes sounds like your instructor uses KM as a starting point (perhaps similar in some ways to what I call the "Foundation" material for new students), then builds on that with MT/BJJ/MMA. I wouldn't call that part of KM as a whole in that case - any more than I'd call my stick work part of NGA - it's part of my curriculum when I teach NGA, but you won't find it at most other schools, so it's not really part of the overall art.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This was my reaction, too.
> 
> @FriedRice What you describes sounds like your instructor uses KM as a starting point (perhaps similar in some ways to what I call the "Foundation" material for new students), then builds on that with MT/BJJ/MMA. I wouldn't call that part of KM as a whole in that case - any more than I'd call my stick work part of NGA - it's part of my curriculum when I teach NGA, but you won't find it at most other schools, so it's not really part of the overall art.



Definitely an improvement on my impression of krav though. Which really should either be MMA lite or MMA plus. Depending on where you are trying to go with it.

Again if you can't mix with the big boys in the basics first. You just don't have the foundation to go super street.

Sorry,  mechanics wise not stylistic wise. So you should be able to handle a punching kicking grappling scenario with small gloves at pace.


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## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Neither of our ranks changes Krav Maga's content. Krav is a Self Defense system at heart and teaches you exactly that, Self-Defense. Your standard Krav class won't teach how to deal with complex attacks from trained combatants.



What Krav Maga alliance is this that you train under?


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## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I know they teach basic weapon defense(gun disarms, knife defenses, etc), but what weapon offense training have you received? I really am curious.



Do you train Krav?



> Just because certain training methods aren't for you doesn't mean they're BS. Quick explosive short sparring intervals have there use, the same goes for light-moderate contact. Anderson Silva spars light with an emphasis on technique and positioning. Hard sparring has it's place too, but there's a line between sparring hard and sparring recklessly.



Read what I said again. It was about a criteria for earning a Black Belt under Alliance.


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## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Okay, I can kind of see where you're coming from now. Just because you KM instructor has a background in something and incorporates it into the KM class doesn't mean it's automatically part of that style's curriculum. For example, my Filipino MA instructor has a background in wrestling and he taught us single and double leg take-downs. However, that doesn't mean that FMA in general has single/double leg take-downs. I think some of the confusion from you "MMA Lite" comment is your basing it off of your KM class opposed to the more common and widespread KM curriculum.



Then tell me, what did my KM Instructor incorporate into his KM class that's not apart of the KM curriculum?


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## TMA17 (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Krav Maga is basically MMA Lite with good weapons training.



I can see where you're coming from.  Kav is a nice blended system (MMA). It's my understanding that the quality really varies within Krav Maga system. The school near me is Israeli Krav Maga and under the umbrella of David Kahn.  They do spar and the training is very lively.  The groundwork used at this school is more similar to Japanese Jiu Jitsu.

I went to an MMA gym for 3 months.  It was great and I learned a lot.  Instructor was good and that is where the difference was.  I would say that MMA gyms are your best bet for learning how to become an  overall well rounded "fighter".  However, even within the MMA realm, quality varies.  You also get a lot of MMA "bro mentality" with some of these places and instruction isn't always that good.

Krav is an outstanding system if it's a good one.  In fact, my one Wing Chun Sifu that studied under the Moy Yat lineage (also with Tony Watts) recommended Krav for learning effective self defense attributes.

Like anything else, the quality will vary.

http://www.israelikrav.com/

MMA gyms are not immune to poor quality.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Definitely an improvement on my impression of krav though. Which really should either be MMA lite or MMA plus. Depending on where you are trying to go with it.
> 
> Again if you can't mix with the big boys in the basics first. You just don't have the foundation to go super street.
> 
> Sorry,  mechanics wise not stylistic wise. So you should be able to handle a punching kicking grappling scenario with small gloves at pace.


I don't disagree, though I won't go so far as to say someone has to be able to handle the "big boys" - assuming that refers to the monsters in competition (regardless of size). At the acme, SD training should prepare for those folks, but there's a lot to be gained long before we reach that acme. I like the idea of someone taking MMA-style training and mix of techniques and then tailoring to the "street" context. I'd love to see that, and someone probably has done that by now.


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## drop bear (Jun 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't disagree, though I won't go so far as to say someone has to be able to handle the "big boys" - assuming that refers to the monsters in competition (regardless of size). At the acme, SD training should prepare for those folks, but there's a lot to be gained long before we reach that acme. I like the idea of someone taking MMA-style training and mix of techniques and then tailoring to the "street" context. I'd love to see that, and someone probably has done that by now.



My coach trains with a guy who does pretty much that. I have been meaning to do a short course but havent found the time.






Paul is also Mr Kudo for queensland or mabye Australia.


Although for me my background in street is massive. So I can kind of just fart around with sport without having to be told how to walk through a door or spot an angry person.


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## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> MMA gyms are not immune to poor quality.



That's very true. Many MMA gyms were once TMA gyms that converted over to MMA (w/name changes and all)  b/c they were losing students to MMA.  Some are legit though and produces quality fighters, especially the Karate ones.  Other TMA gyms just bring in BJJ  black belts or even purples to teach BJJ classes. 

Many BJJ gyms aren't even MMA because full MMA is too rough and BJJ only is what really makes the $$$. They may have Muay Thai but it's still not full MMA when both classes are separate.


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## Anarax (Jun 26, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> What Krav Maga alliance is this that you train under?


I've trained under two different Krav instructors, attended various seminars and have sparred and trained with many KM instructors and students over the years. My point is grounded in personal training in KM and training with KM practitioners from various organizations throughout the years. I've had my fair share of exposure to KM.



FriedRice said:


> Read what I said again. It was about a criteria for earning a Black Belt under Alliance.


You said



FriedRice said:


> So no BS, constant start & stop type, light contact fighting.


Does this not mean you see constant start/stop type and light contact as BS? I interpreted the training you referred to after "BS" was what you categorize as "BS". Did I misunderstand you?



FriedRice said:


> Then tell me, what did my KM Instructor incorporate into his KM class that's not apart of the KM curriculum?


The "MMA Lite" comment in general covers it. KM is a Self-Defense system, there can be variations on training methods, but it's still a self-defense system. Defending yourself against someone on the street and being able to compete on the professional level aren't the same thing. The focus, training, conditioning, tactics, strategies and even the techniques to a certain degree are different.


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## FriedRice (Jun 26, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I've trained under two different Krav instructors, attended various seminars and have sparred and trained with many KM instructors and students over the years. My point is grounded in personal training in KM and training with KM practitioners from various organizations throughout the years. I've had my fair share of exposure to KM.



Groupons right?  



> You said
> Does this not mean you see constant start/stop type and light contact as BS? I interpreted the training you referred to after "BS" was what you categorize as "BS". Did I misunderstand you?



Yes.



> The "MMA Lite" comment in general covers it. KM is a Self-Defense system, there can be variations on training methods, but it's still a self-defense system. Defending yourself against someone on the street and being able to compete on the professional level aren't the same thing. The focus, training, conditioning, tactics, strategies and even the techniques to a certain degree are different.



Yea, this is what a Level 1 Intro is taught.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> My coach trains with a guy who does pretty much that. I have been meaning to do a short course but havent found the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, most folks don't have the background to not need some translation to context.

I'll have to poke around and see if anyone is doing something similar anywhere around here. Would be interesting to go to.


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## DaveB (Jun 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There are so many falacies in that video.
> 
> Ok. The big one.
> 
> ...



The thing I fundamentally disagree with you on is that the technique, [punch in the face], is somehow different for boxing than in Krav or even Wing Chun.

For me the fact that the [punch in the face] technique works in boxing serves as evidence for all systems that employ it.

Also you are basically asking all systems of fighting to be combat sports in order to provide your evidence, which is just unreasonable.


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## FriedRice (Jun 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And while we are at it. Style doesn't matter?



What's crazy was that even with this bad technique, she dismantled Miesha Tate in their 2nd fight, standing up pretty badly....to the point that Tate (who was bragging about how her standup was much better during their season on The Ultimate Fighter together).....had to panic wrestle her to get away from her boxing.

Then she whooped the hell out of Bethe Correia and KO'ed her standing up, and Correia is also known for standup, wild brawling only and had an undefeated record....I guess that's why there's MMA and WMMA.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> The thing I fundamentally disagree with you on is that the technique, [punch in the face], is somehow different for boxing than in Krav or even Wing Chun.
> 
> For me the fact that the [punch in the face] technique works in boxing serves as evidence for all systems that employ it.
> 
> Also you are basically asking all systems of fighting to be combat sports in order to provide your evidence, which is just unreasonable.



You could test it. Get your krav/chun school to compete in a boxing match.

If punching is basically the same they will hold up.

I mean we can look to people like Bec Rawlings who say MMA punching and bare knuckle punching are basically the same. Because she has done both.

By the way. How else do you test your system if not in combat sport?


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, most folks don't have the background to not need some translation to context.
> 
> I'll have to poke around and see if anyone is doing something similar anywhere around here. Would be interesting to go to.



There would have to be a civilian Mc Map or combatives lurking around somewhere.

You just have to separate what you can do from what would be cool if you could do.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2018)

Anarax said:


> The "MMA Lite" comment in general covers it. KM is a Self-Defense system, there can be variations on training methods, but it's still a self-defense system. Defending yourself against someone on the street and being able to compete on the professional level aren't the same thing. The focus, training, conditioning, tactics, strategies and even the techniques to a



Not really in terms of obvious overlap.

So what I mean there is there are very few positions you will find yourself fighting in self defence that are not reflected in MMA.

Even weapons have about the same space and timing. Just different order of priorities.

By the way. At least being able to compete in an ammy fight. With that full pace and intent should give an indication of how you will react in self defence.


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## Anarax (Jun 27, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Groupons right?


Yes, over the years I've trained martial arts and trained with KM instructors and students both formally and informally, I always showed my groupon. Before we sparred or drilled I always showed them my 50% off groupon . When the KM instructor would ask me for my input on a technique I might have had more experience with given my background, he showed me his groupon. 



FriedRice said:


> Yea, this is what a Level 1 Intro is taught.



That is what *your *KM system teaches at level 1, many other KM schools have different curriculum.


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## Anarax (Jun 27, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not really in terms of obvious overlap.
> 
> So what I mean there is there are very few positions you will find yourself fighting in self defence that are not reflected in MMA.



The biggest difference is SD mostly focuses on survival while MMA/Competition is more focused on winning. I understand there's overlap, but the overall objective is usually different.



drop bear said:


> Even weapons have about the same space and timing. Just different order of priorities.



Are you referring to weapon defense?



drop bear said:


> By the way. At least being able to compete in an ammy fight. With that full pace and intent should give an indication of how you will react in self defence.



I agree that being able to compete in an amateur fight is a good stress test. However, my original point was this approach isn't common in the KM community.


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## FriedRice (Jun 27, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Yes, over the years I've trained martial arts and trained with KM instructors and students both formally and informally, I always showed my groupon. Before we sparred or drilled I always showed them my 50% off groupon . When the KM instructor would ask me for my input on a technique I might have had more experience with given my background, he showed me his groupon.
> 
> .



That sounds about right.


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## drop bear (Jun 27, 2018)

Anarax said:


> The biggest difference is SD mostly focuses on survival while MMA/Competition is more focused on winning. I understand there's overlap, but the overall objective is usually different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The overall objective isn't all that important so long as you can solve all the little objectives along the way.

I agree that as described is not common. But if that is the way they are going I think it is the better path.


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## DaveB (Jun 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You could test it. Get your krav/chun school to compete in a boxing match.
> 
> If punching is basically the same they will hold up.
> 
> ...



Well Krav takes feedback from the police and military who use it. Live trials.

The thing is there is testing an art to see if it is effective and testing the self to see if you are effective. 
For the art, they don't need to provide you with proof. For the self, sure testing is part of training and sport is a great way to train. 

And boxing is only a valid test if the Krav guy can use Krav, which boxing doesn't allow.

BTW boxing sucks because boxers lose in every single boxing match.


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## Anarax (Jun 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The overall objective isn't all that important so long as you can solve all the little objectives along the way.



Your objectives determine what techniques you're going to use though. For example, if survival is your objective then voluntarily going to the ground with someone to pull guard isn't the best thing to do. It's great to know what to do if you find yourself on the ground, but intentionally putting yourself there in a self-defense scenario isn't ideal. However, in an MMA bout pulling guard is a better idea because you're facing a single opponent, are in the same weight class and you know your opponent isn't carrying any concealed weapons.

There are even more differences between SD vs amateur boxing/kickboxing matches. I think the psychological ability of being able to deal with adrenaline in a spectated fight is important, but the tactical/strategic aspects are quite different from SD.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Your objectives determine what techniques you're going to use though. For example, if survival is your objective then voluntarily going to the ground with someone to pull guard isn't the best thing to do. It's great to know what to do if you find yourself on the ground, but intentionally putting yourself there in a self-defense scenario isn't ideal. However, in an MMA bout pulling guard is a better idea because you're facing a single opponent, are in the same weight class and you know your opponent isn't carrying any concealed weapons.
> 
> There are even more differences between SD vs amateur boxing/kickboxing matches. I think the psychological ability of being able to deal with adrenaline in a spectated fight is important, but the tactical/strategic aspects are quite different from SD.



The people who make these distinctions are kind of looking at the problem through the wrong lens.

And your knowledge of MMA tactics is kind of wrong.

Self defence is a puzzle. And you need a bunch of different tools to solve that puzzle.

The idea that you can pre solve a situation that you haven't experienced yet mostly doesn't work.

I will find that Martian speech again which explains my process here a bit better.






So for example. If jumping guard stops me from getting my head punched in at that moment. I will jump guard. Because gaining a second of respite is worth the risk of them possibly having a weapon. Now once I have jumped guard. I can solve the weapon problem and technical stand up. From there I may have a new issue and i solve that.

And so on.

Self defence just isn't this script based story that people think it is.


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## Anarax (Jun 28, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Self defence is a puzzle. And you need a bunch of different tools to solve that puzzle.


Your comment is more so referring to adaption which I don't disagree with. Training from bad positions is a good approach for it trains you to gain a dominant position from a non-dominant one.  



drop bear said:


> The idea that you can pre solve a situation that you haven't experienced yet mostly doesn't work.


I'm not saying I will use techniques X, Y and Z regardless of circumstance. It's more so understanding SD tactics/strategies, thus training techniques that correlate with said tactics/strategies. 



drop bear said:


> I will find that Martian speech again which explains my process here a bit better.


The Martian is an amazing movie. SPOILER ALERT!!! Mark Watney never voluntarily put himself in a non-dominate position, he was completely at the mercy of faulty equipment and lack of resources. This is where the training from non-dominate positions comes into play and that's exactly what he did to improve his situation and eventually return home.     



drop bear said:


> So for example. If jumping guard stops me from getting my head punched in at that moment. I will jump guard. Because gaining a second of respite is worth the risk of them possibly having a weapon. Now once I have jumped guard. I can solve the weapon problem and technical stand up. From there I may have a new issue and i solve that.


There is a hierarchy of positions in which some have inherent advantages over others. For example, having your opponent in full-mount is more advantageous than being the one mounted. Do what's necessary to survive while trying to maintain a dominant position is important. 



drop bear said:


> Self defence just isn't this script based story that people think it is.


I'm not talking about a set script to go off of, but understanding SD tactics/strategies will vary from MMA tactics/strategies because the goals and dynamics are different. Is there overlap? Absolutely. But there are differences as well.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2018)

Anarax said:


> There is a hierarchy of positions in which some have inherent advantages over others. For example, having your opponent in full-mount is more advantageous than being the one mounted. Do what's necessary to survive while trying to maintain a dominant position is important.



There are circumstances where you need to give up a position to fight off an attack. Oma plata. If you roll they will wind up on top. If you don't you can get your arm broken.

Solve one problem then solve the next.

There is no point being a freaking awesome jujitsu guy and getting your head smashed in trying to box with a guy. 

What you would need to do is weigh up the likleyhood of winning stand up  vs the likleyhood of going to the ground making your situation worse.

Bcause going to the ground in a jump guard is risky. But falling over unconscious is riskier.

Now all of this isn't to say people should jump guard. MMAguys basically don't do it. It is about how you mentally process your problem solving.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I'm not talking about a set script to go off of, but understanding SD tactics/strategies will vary from MMA tactics/strategies because the goals and dynamics are different. Is there overlap? Absolutely. But there are differences as well.



It depends on what your specific aim is more than whether or not you are doing MMA or self defence.

MMA/self defence. or even Ian Atherbies consensual/non consensual are just bad lines in which to make distinctions.

You are better off making specific distinctions. Like escape to a safe zone. get my handbag back. Drag that guy off my mate. Whatever. And then work a plan towards that.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Well Krav takes feedback from the police and military who use it. Live trials.
> 
> The thing is there is testing an art to see if it is effective and testing the self to see if you are effective.
> For the art, they don't need to provide you with proof. For the self, sure testing is part of training and sport is a great way to train.
> ...



Every martial art has police and military that use it. Yes the system does need to be evidence based. 

And how many fights did maywhether loose.


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## DaveB (Jun 29, 2018)

No idea how many he lost, but a boxer lost every fight he won.

And if every martial art has a military or police force that use it then every martial art has been tested and presumably been found functional.


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## DaveB (Jun 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> It depends on what your specific aim is more than whether or not you are doing MMA or self defence.
> 
> MMA/self defence. or even Ian Atherbies consensual/non consensual are just bad lines in which to make distinctions.
> 
> You are better off making specific distinctions. Like escape to a safe zone. get my handbag back. Drag that guy off my mate. Whatever. And then work a plan towards that.


That's precisely what SD classes do.

The consensual/non consensual line is just a means of explaining why your training for the safe zone escape is different to training for a karate tournament etc.


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## Anarax (Jun 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There are circumstances where you need to give up a position to fight off an attack. Oma plata. If you roll they will wind up on top. If you don't you can get your arm broken.


Omaplata is a very specific grappling position that one may find themselves in, but that's a much easier situation to gauge the trade offs, broken arm vs worse position.That's why I differentiated voluntarily place your self in bad position vs involuntarily. The one in the omaplata didn't intentionally put themselves there, their opponent did. 



drop bear said:


> There is no point being a freaking awesome jujitsu guy and getting your head smashed in trying to box with a guy.


We're talking about training MMA to use in an SD environment though, thus we a referring to students that should at the very least be able to defend themselves against an average Joe on the street in stand up.



drop bear said:


> What you would need to do is weigh up the likleyhood of winning stand up vs the likleyhood of going to the ground making your situation worse.


Doing this can be tricky in an SD scenario though. Entering into an MMA bout you will usually know what type of opponent you're facing, this isn't the case in SD. The street combatant could be completely untrained, good, or an amazing striker/grappler. There are tells that show if someone is trained or not in a street fight, but the time window you have to realize that is very small.  



drop bear said:


> Bcause going to the ground in a jump guard is risky. But falling over unconscious is riskier.


I understand what you mean, but again why is the one who trains MMA being out struck in stand up against an average person? I agree a huge advantage of MMA vs SD that more times than not MMA will teach you to fight trained combatants while SD usually doesn't. However, in your scenario he only seems to be good at grappling. If he gets hit a falls over and the guy is standing over him continuing his attack then I can understand pulling guard for that particular situation. If the grappler concludes that the street combatant has better striking would it not be better to use a takedown that would put him in a superior position?



drop bear said:


> Now all of this isn't to say people should jump guard. MMAguys basically don't do it. It is about how you mentally process your problem solving.


I agree problem solving is a crucial tool for any Martial Artists, regardless if MMA, TMA or SD. However, I have to disagree with you on MMA practitioner's don't jump guard. One of the UFC house fights they pulled guard and in numerous pro fights they pull guard. I'm not saying that these instances represent the entire MMA community, but there are Pro fighters that use it.



drop bear said:


> It depends on what your specific aim is more than whether or not you are doing MMA or self defence.
> MMA/self defence. or even Ian Atherbies consensual/non consensual are just bad lines in which to make distinctions.
> 
> You are better off making specific distinctions. Like escape to a safe zone. get my handbag back. Drag that guy off my mate. Whatever. And then work a plan towards that.



I'm referring to the more Sport oriented MMA, opposed to cross-training different styles separately. Training for competition vs non-competition is what it comes down to. There are BJJ schools that have a competition/tournament emphasis and other have a street/SD emphasis. Both are BJJ, but one will be more effective on the street and the other will perform better in competition.


In summary, a lot of MMA is useful in SD scenarios, but there are certain tactics that have developed from the competitive based MMA style that would place the practitioner in a bad position.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2018)

DaveB said:


> That's precisely what SD classes do.
> 
> The consensual/non consensual line is just a means of explaining why your training for the safe zone escape is different to training for a karate tournament etc.



Except there is no way to gauge a martial arts progression with out referencing consensual violence. So if you set up a competition in self defence class where one person tries to kidnap you and you try to escape. That is consensual. The feedback you get is consensual. If you can achieve that in that environment it is by engaging pretty much the same micro scenarios that you would face in a MMA match. Just in different order.


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## drop bear (Jun 29, 2018)

Anarax said:


> In summary, a lot of MMA is useful in SD scenarios, but there are certain tactics that have developed from the competitive based MMA style that would place the practitioner in a bad position.



OK instead of addressing a whole bunch of technical misconceptions there. Let's just work with one at the moment.

People are not potatoes. The whole point of training problem solving is to get good at problem solving. 

So that a person at the time can reasonably decide what is good or bad for them to do at the time. So regardless whether there are progressions that will work in a match that won't work in the street. Doesn't mean anyone has to automatically follow that progression.

Now from my experience self defence pretty much has to have two elements and it pretty much has to be in this order.

It has to work.

It has to be applicable.

You can sort of get away with something working but being environmentally silly. You basically can't get away with something that is environmentally suitable but just doesn't work very well.

For krav this is why you almost never their signature move, that block and strike. When krav guys spar. Because nobody can pull it off. (And I have tried)


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## Anarax (Jun 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> OK instead of addressing a whole bunch of technical misconceptions there. Let's just work with one at the moment.


Could you clarify on what misconceptions?



drop bear said:


> So that a person at the time can reasonably decide what is good or bad for them to do at the time. So regardless whether there are progressions that will work in a match that won't work in the street. Doesn't mean anyone has to automatically follow that progression.


Automatically? No. However, using what is better suited for the given situation will place them in a more advantageous position. 



drop bear said:


> You can sort of get away with something working but being environmentally silly. You basically can't get away with something that is environmentally suitable but just doesn't work very well.


It doesn't have to be binary though. If both the silly and non-silly are possible then wouldn't the non-silly be the better choice? If I can submit my opponent without going to the ground in a dark parking lot, would that not be a better choice given the circumstances? Though I understand if my opponent knocks me down or puts me on the ground then I don't have a choice put to work from that position.   



drop bear said:


> For krav this is why you almost never their signature move, that block and strike. When krav guys spar. Because nobody can pull it off. (And I have tried)


Could you clarify? I don't fully understand what you mean.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Could you clarify on what misconceptions?



Fine. Whatever.



Anarax said:


> Omaplata is a very specific grappling position that one may find themselves in, but that's a much easier situation to gauge the trade offs, broken arm vs worse position.That's I differentiated voluntarily place your self in bad position vs involuntarily. The one in the omaplata didn't intentionally put themselves there, their opponent did



No. Ok part of the escape requires you to be put in a technically worse position in order to keep fighting. You have to make the choice to jump into that position. There is a few escapes that do it. Oma plata is just an easy one to explain. And sometimes it is better to fight on from a reall crap position. So long as you are still fighting.



Anarax said:


> We're talking about training MMA to use in an SD environment though, thus we a referring to students that should at the very least be able to defend themselves against an average Joe on the street in stand up



Not if we have a completely undetermined strength, weight, numbers or positional advantage. Which in self defence you can't always have. If they are a big roided up guy they might be beating the piss out of you. Even if you have better technical ability. (see that thread on super agressive noobs)




Anarax said:


> Doing this can be tricky in an SD scenario though. Entering into an MMA bout you will usually know what type of opponent you're facing, this isn't the case in SD. The street combatant could be completely untrained, good, or an amazing striker/grappler. There are tells that show if someone is trained or not in a street fight, but the time window you have to realize that is very small.



See? we have gone from assuming the street fight is average joe to amazing striker grappler. And no. Unless you are some sort of top tier MMA fighter you may not know anything about your oponant. My first MMA I new nothing about mine.



Anarax said:


> I understand what you mean, but again why is the one who trains MMA being out struck in stand up against an average person? I agree



Because fights are unpredictable. Hell you said that.



Anarax said:


> I agree a huge advantage of MMA vs SD that more times than not MMA will teach you to fight trained combatants while SD usually doesn't. However, in your scenario he only seems to be good at grappling.



Ok. this is a false distinction. Self defence whether it is MMA or anything else should strive to protect you from the best fighters it can. There is no advantage to be specifically trained to overcome duds. In my scenario it was one reason why I might jump guard in self defence.



Anarax said:


> If the grappler concludes that the street combatant has better striking would it not be better to



Yes it would be better to throw the guy and wind up in a dominant position. But sometimes you take what you can get. You can't always have these fights go your own way.



Anarax said:


> I agree problem solving is a crucial tool for any Martial Artists, regardless if MMA, TMA or SD. However, I have to disagree with you on MMA practitioner's don't jump guard. One of the UFC house fights they pulled guard and in numerous pro fights they pull guard. I'm not saying that these instances represent the entire MMA community, but there are Pro fighters that use it.



And that guy got bashed for his jump guard troubles. which is why you mostly don't do it. Unless you have a really good reason.



Anarax said:


> I'm referring to the more Sport oriented MMA, opposed to cross-training different styles separately. Training for competition vs non-competition is what it comes down to. There are BJJ schools that have a competition/tournament emphasis and other have a street/SD emphasis. Both are BJJ, but one will be more effective on the street and the other will perform better in competition.



Pretty much every MMA gym cross trains in the various styles. Or are at least pretty good at the individual componants. McGregor does MMA striking but can box relatively well. 

Robert whitaker was going to represent Australia in wrestling.

Even though jumping guard and sports BJJ is not technically aplicable for MMA if it works there is still a level where you can get away with it. This is where you would see a jump guard in MMA.

So Kron gracie does things that are technically wrong for MMA but because his jits is so much better than his oponant he gets away with it.





This is precisely where works vs aplicable factors in.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Could you clarify? I don't fully understand what you












Nobody ever really pulls that shot off live.

I did hocks system for about 3years and I drilled that move. And because this was before I understood the difference between what works and what would be cool if it works I thought it would be perfect to try on my friend who threw a ton of overhand rights.

Guess what? I spent a year on it and made it work maybe once. Which isn't a very good success rate for self defence.


----------



## Anarax (Jun 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> No. Ok part of the escape requires you to be put in a technically worse position in order to keep fighting. You have to make the choice to jump into that position. There is a few escapes that do it. Oma plata is just an easy one to explain. And sometimes it is better to fight on from a reall crap position. So long as you are still fighting.


I understand, hence is why I said "broken arm vs worse position. Meaning some escapes involve placing yourself in a worse position, but the alternative is your opponent finishing the submission and inflicting a debilitating injury.I was referring to voluntarily placing yourself in a bad position of your own choosing oppose to a specific escape. Though I think I get your point.



drop bear said:


> Not if we have a completely undetermined strength, weight, numbers or positional advantage. Which in self defence you can't always have. If they are a big roided up guy they might be beating the piss out of you. Even if you have better technical ability. (see that thread on super agressive noobs)


Those are important factors, but *if *we are talking about a MMAist then they should be able to "defend" themselves from a big roid rager. That doesn't mean they have to KO the rager, but they can at least maintain distance and not get destroyed. Nothing is a guarantee, but the rigors of MMA *should* prepare them for that.

I did read the noobs thread, I believe most people's advice was for him to train more, which I agree with.



drop bear said:


> See? we have gone from assuming the street fight is average joe to amazing striker grappler. And no. Unless you are some sort of top tier MMA fighter you may not know anything about your oponant. My first MMA I new nothing about mine.


No, I was saying anyone's skill falls on a spectrum. The point was you have less information in an SD scenario and have a lot of possibilities to prepare for. Concealed weapons, multiple opponents, surprise attacks, etc. There are more factors in an SD scenario that are more difficult to account for. Even in some amateur bouts you can find out who's on the fight card with you and do a simple google search to find out more about your opponent. Even a lot of pros can find out who they're fighting in advance. I understand that it's not *always* possible to do so though.



drop bear said:


> Ok. this is a false distinction. Self defence whether it is MMA or anything else should strive to protect you from the best fighters it can. There is no advantage to be specifically trained to overcome duds. In my scenario it was one reason why I might jump guard in self defence.


You misunderstand, a well trained Martial Artist should be able to use their style in an SD scenario. However, I'm referring to SD styles in which they usually only focus on defending themselves against the untrained. In essence, I'm saying SD styles, not SD the concept. If I use MMA in an SD scenario that doesn't make MMA an SD style, though it can be used for SD.

There is an advantage in being well-trained in SD opposed to nothing at all. 



drop bear said:


> Yes it would be better to throw the guy and wind up in a dominant position. But sometimes you take what you can get. You can't always have these fights go your own way.


Yes, when you say "better" that's exactly what I'm referring to, a hierarchy of advantageous positions. Simply knowing the hierarchy isn't enough to maintain a dominant position, but understanding the trade-offs of each position is important.



drop bear said:


> I did hocks system for about 3years and I drilled that move. And because this was before I understood the difference between what works and what would be cool if it works I thought it would be perfect to try on my friend who threw a ton of overhand rights.
> 
> Guess what? I spent a year on it and made it work maybe once. Which isn't a very good success rate for self defence.



Ah, I see what you mean now. Yeah, I could see the difficulty of pulling that move off in a sparring scenario. Judging by how his students were throwing those punches, it doesn't look like it would be the best technique against trained attacks.

Take a look at the video below and the clerk does a very similar move at it was extremely effective against the attacker.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Take a look at the video below and the clerk does a very similar move at it was extremely effective against the attacker.



The two beat block and punch. 

There is a reason why that works better than the one beat version. Even though the one beat would be cooler if it did work.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2018)

Anarax said:


> You misunderstand, a well trained Martial Artist should be able to use their style in an SD scenario. However, I'm referring to SD styles in which they usually only focus on defending themselves against the untrained. In essence, I'm saying SD styles, not SD the concept. If I use MMA in an SD scenario that doesn't make MMA an SD style, though it can be used for SD.
> 
> There is an advantage in being well-trained in SD opposed to nothing at all.



How does training specifically to fight duds help you in self defence?

Regardless of what you train specifically for. If you fight a dud you will have a better chance of winning. You might even be more likley to encounter a dud as opposed to a trained fighter on the street.

But why would you train for that. What sort of super power do dud fighters have that is not allready incorporated into handling a trained fighter?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 30, 2018)

Anarax said:


> No, I was saying anyone's skill falls on a spectrum. The point was you have less information in an SD scenario and have a lot of possibilities to prepare for. Concealed weapons, multiple opponents, surprise attacks, etc. There are more factors in an SD scenario that are more difficult to account for. Even in some amateur bouts you can find out who's on the fight card with you and do a simple google search to find out more about your opponent. Even a lot of pros can find out who they're fighting in advance. I understand that it's not *always* possible to do so though.



And if you were defending a domestic assault then you would probably know your attacker as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Nobody ever really pulls that shot off live.
> 
> I did hocks system for about 3years and I drilled that move. And because this was before I understood the difference between what works and what would be cool if it works I thought it would be perfect to try on my friend who threw a ton of overhand rights.
> 
> Guess what? I spent a year on it and made it work maybe once. Which isn't a very good success rate for self defence.


How is that - in application - different from slipping inside a punch and counter-punching on the entry? If the opponent doesn't fire the second hand (and they should, for just this reason, but don't always), then they're open for that counter-punch on the entry. I think too much is made of the "block and strike, not block then strike" - the difference between those two is a grey area, rather than the stark distinction that is shown in demos like this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> What sort of super power do dud fighters have that is not allready incorporated into handling a trained fighter?


It's more often about the super-weaknesses they show, which are pretty easy to train for. It's low-hanging fruit.


----------



## Anarax (Jun 30, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The two beat block and punch.
> 
> There is a reason why that works better than the one beat version. Even though the one beat would be cooler if it did work.


They are quite similar as far as application goes. You create an opening/entry and follow up with a counter-strike. The entry itself is the difficult part, not the counter-attack itself. The one beat usually requires more agility for you have to utilize footwork to jam the opponent and close off the line. Both techniques can be utilized in an SD scenario though.  



drop bear said:


> How does training specifically to fight duds help you in self defence?


Are "duds" untrained people? Just want some clarification. 



drop bear said:


> Regardless of what you train specifically for. If you fight a dud you will have a better chance of winning. You might even be more likley to encounter a dud as opposed to a trained fighter on the street.


You are statically more likely to encounter an untrained person vs trained.



drop bear said:


> But why would you train for that. What sort of super power do dud fighters have that is not allready incorporated into handling a trained fighter?


The technical aspects have already been covered. However, you should consider not everyone has the same time and physical capacity for long term training.  



drop bear said:


> And if you were defending a domestic assault then you would probably know your attacker as well.


I understand your comment, but I'm not following the context.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> How is that - in application - different from slipping inside a punch and counter-punching on the entry? If the opponent doesn't fire the second hand (and they should, for just this reason, but don't always), then they're open for that counter-punch on the entry. I think too much is made of the "block and strike, not block then strike" - the difference between those two is a grey area, rather than the stark distinction that is shown in demos like this.



Don't know why the slip inside is easier. But more people can pull it off.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Don't know why the slip inside is easier. But more people can pull it off.


I agree people pull it off - I actually see it as an example of this kind of thing. What we see in teaching demos is (as always) over-simplified. I trained some of these things for a long time, but didn't start to see the real application until I recognized the slip inside (and some other movements) as applications of this training.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I agree people pull it off - I actually see it as an example of this kind of thing. What we see in teaching demos is (as always) over-simplified. I trained some of these things for a long time, but didn't start to see the real application until I recognized the slip inside (and some other movements) as applications of this training.



I think the inside slip is basically a different thing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I think the inside slip is basically a different thing.


Can you explain why? I see sort of a continuum between block-then-strike and block-strike, and that inside slip and immediate counter is close to the block-strike end of that continuum.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Nobody ever really pulls that shot off live.
> 
> I did hocks system for about 3years and I drilled that move. And because this was before I understood the difference between what works and what would be cool if it works I thought it would be perfect to try on my friend who threw a ton of overhand rights.
> 
> Guess what? I spent a year on it and made it work maybe once. Which isn't a very good success rate for self defence.




He wouldn't understand this because he doesn't really train Krav Maga. He only drops in or buys a groupon, or whatever....probably watches a lot of YouTube intro videos to Krav, which is what is sold to Level 1 people in order to get them excited about joining. 

Level 2 Krav sparring looks just like this video, which is basically Kickboxing. The taller guy in this video, I would guess, is nearing Level 3 because most of the Level 2's I've sparred with, aren't as good.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> He wouldn't understand this because he doesn't really train Krav Maga. He only drops in or buys a groupon, or whatever....probably watches a lot of YouTube intro videos to Krav


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Can you explain why? I see sort of a continuum between block-then-strike and block-strike, and that inside slip and immediate counter is close to the block-strike end of that continuum.



one difference is with a slip you are not neccesarily reacting to a punch. You are just moving your head around

The block then strike means you need to only move one arm.

And the simultaneous block strike means you need to move your whole body in reaction to a strike. Which is increadably hard to do at speed.

I think there is some range issues as well. I remember going in to the simultaneous block and strike. Which shortens the time I have to do it.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 2, 2018)

Anarax said:


>



nothing wrong with training on a groupon.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> one difference is with a slip you are not neccesarily reacting to a punch. You are just moving your head around
> 
> The block then strike means you need to only move one arm.
> 
> ...


Ah. See, I interpret that as I do many things in TMA. We're taught the "beginner's version", and progress beyond it as we learn. So, in the drill, you react to the punch and both block and strike are a result of the punch. In sparring, the "block" is usually more of a brush or cover as you're moving in for your own punch. So, yeah, it uses both hands, but in wise ways. It looks vastly different from a boxing cover while slipping to punch, but only until you get past the "beginner's version".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> nothing wrong with training on a groupon.


There is something wrong with trolling, though.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Ah. See, I interpret that as I do many things in TMA. We're taught the "beginner's version", and progress beyond it as we learn. So, in the drill, you react to the punch and both block and strike are a result of the punch. In sparring, the "block" is usually more of a brush or cover as you're moving in for your own punch. So, yeah, it uses both hands, but in wise ways. It looks vastly different from a boxing cover while slipping to punch, but only until you get past the "beginner's version".



Why on earth would you bother with a beginner's version? 

Good head movement or covering isn't exactly complicated in a technical sense.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 2, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And the simultaneous block strike means you need to move your whole body in reaction to a strike. Which is increadably hard to do at speed.


If you're breaking in on the inside then yeah you're right. However, the attack in the video was a wild haymaker, thus an inside entry isn't a bad technique to use. People will usually fully commit to a haymaker, thus you don't have a lot of distance to cover with the block-punch.

That's not to say there aren't trade-offs for simultaneous block-attacks. Because both arms are extended you won't be able to generate significant power with your strike for you can't commit to one side.      



drop bear said:


> I think there is some range issues as well. I remember going in to the simultaneous block and strike. Which shortens the time I have to do it.


The range is definitely closer, but the guys in the video used a vertical punch instead which are better to use in close range. Training the simultaneous block-attacks can be tricky. There not always always the best technique to use and you don't want to misjudge the situation and use it when you shouldn't. However, you could say the same about any technique. There are definitely situations where the technique would be useful, mostly against the untrained.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> nothing wrong with training on a groupon.



The same "insult"? Boring 

You haven't addressed the technical points I've made in this thread and others, thus re-typing them would be a waste of time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Why on earth would you bother with a beginner's version?
> 
> Good head movement or covering isn't exactly complicated in a technical sense.


It's a common approach in a lot of Japanese TMA. Most of us (folks trained in Japanese TMA-ish systems) learned a straight punch from a static stance with the opposite hand retracting to hip or ribs. That's not something you're likely to see in actual application - just a starting position for teaching the principles. Same goes for learning the front kick (rear leg straight kick, not sure what others call that) from a "front stance", rather than fighting stance, and often with hands on hips to help stop beginners from using the "flailing arms for balance" stance. I still find some things are easier for students to learn this way, while others they seem to pick up faster from a more practical "near application" position.

You're right that head movement and covering aren't terribly technical. I see too little head movement (and level changing) trained in many TMA schools. I do see cover trained, and it just sort of bleeds in over time. But none of that is trained with the initial movements. I do wonder if some of that training approach was picked up from Japanese martial arts moving into the schools, as an adaptation to using them primarily to teach movement to children (without concern for fighting skill).


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's a common approach in a lot of Japanese TMA. Most of us (folks trained in Japanese TMA-ish systems) learned a straight punch from a static stance with the opposite hand retracting to hip or ribs. That's not something you're likely to see in actual application - just a starting position for teaching the principles. Same goes for learning the front kick (rear leg straight kick, not sure what others call that) from a "front stance", rather than fighting stance, and often with hands on hips to help stop beginners from using the "flailing arms for balance" stance. I still find some things are easier for students to learn this way, while others they seem to pick up faster from a more practical "near application" position.
> 
> You're right that head movement and covering aren't terribly technical. I see too little head movement (and level changing) trained in many TMA schools. I do see cover trained, and it just sort of bleeds in over time. But none of that is trained with the initial movements. I do wonder if some of that training approach was picked up from Japanese martial arts moving into the schools, as an adaptation to using them primarily to teach movement to children (without concern for fighting skill).



And you think that is in line with the whole krav teaching people to fight theme?

Look my guess is the theory is that it works in the drills. So it has to work right?

Which is a very common progression in rbsd.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Those are important factors, but *if *we are talking about a MMAist then they should be able to "defend" themselves from a big roid rager. That doesn't mean they have to KO the rager, but they can at least maintain distance and not get destroyed. Nothing is a guarantee, but the rigors of MMA *should* prepare them for that.
> 
> I did read the noobs thread, I believe most people's advice was for him to train more, which I agree with.



How many roid ragers have you fought? 

I have given up 40kg on some guys I have had to fight.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

Anarax said:


> You are statically more likely to encounter an untrained person vs trained.



Is there statistics on that?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And you think that is in line with the whole krav teaching people to fight theme?
> 
> Look my guess is the theory is that it works in the drills. So it has to work right?
> 
> Which is a very common progression in rbsd.


I'm not familiar with KM training methods, but since they've borrowed from other arts, I suspect they've picked up some of the training methods along the way, too. I don't think using these starting versions slows learning down in any measurable way, unless they don't progress away from the starting version (which I've seen happen). It'd be akin to teaching a guard pass in 5 steps with a static partner, and never proceeding to the next part of the learning process.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not familiar with KM training methods, but since they've borrowed from other arts, I suspect they've picked up some of the training methods along the way, too. I don't think using these starting versions slows learning down in any measurable way, unless they don't progress away from the starting version (which I've seen happen). It'd be akin to teaching a guard pass in 5 steps with a static partner, and never proceeding to the next part of the learning process.



Well it is like teaching a silly guard pass in however many steps you want. And then later on having to teach a decent guard pass.

Which BJJ did there for a while. With that one arm under guard pass. Which relies on the guy you are passing to undersand guard but have never heard of a tryangle choke before.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Well it is like teaching a silly guard pass in however many steps you want. And then later on having to teach a decent guard pass.
> 
> Which BJJ did there for a while. With that one arm under guard pass. Which relies on the guy you are passing to undersand guard but have never heard of a tryangle choke before.


I'm not familiar with that one (or am, and don't know it's silly), but yeah, I think that's a reasonable comparison. One issue with the TMA approach is that it tends to stick the "T" in that abbreviation, especially in training methodology. BJJ doesn't tend to have that problem - one of the things I like about the "common" BJJ approach.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 3, 2018)

Anarax said:


> The same "insult"? Boring
> 
> You haven't addressed the technical points I've made in this thread and others, thus re-typing them would be a waste of time.



What insult?  You admitted to only dropping in on Krav gyms and not really training seriously there. Most people do this through GROUPONS.

And I asked you what federation your Krav gym falls under, and you didn't know. I'm pretty sure you train with the Level 1 people because what you convey about Krav, is pretty much what the L1's are taught.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 4, 2018)

drop bear said:


> How many roid ragers have you fought?


I've had to defend myself against a much larger opponent on the street. I've sparred numerous heavily muscular students as well.



drop bear said:


> Is there statistics on that?


Yes, it varies by country, but in the US it's about 5 percent, in Australia it's less than 2 percent.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> What insult? You admitted to only dropping in on Krav gyms and not really training seriously there. Most people do this through GROUPONS.


My comment about groupon was so heavily laced with sarcasm I'm surprised you interpreted it literally.

Your comments about me learning from YouTube videos and not sparring are insult attempts. You simply resort to insulting opposed to having civil discourse.



FriedRice said:


> And I asked you what federation your Krav gym falls under, and you didn't know.


Yeah, I haven't nor do I place emphasis on alliances and organizations. My KM instructor was a very skilled and knowledgeable Martial Artist. Not knowing the name of the organization he was certified under doesn't change the quality nor the legitimacy of his training.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 4, 2018)

Anarax said:


> My comment about groupon was so heavily laced with sarcasm I'm surprised you interpreted it literally.
> 
> Your comments about me learning from YouTube videos and not sparring are insult attempts. You simply resort to insulting opposed to having civil discourse.



You admitted to only dropping in to Krav gyms = you haven't trained Krav seriously enough to understand it past Level 1, as proven by what you post. Because most of what you post about Krav, sounds just like what's taught in Level 1 classes and Youtube advertisements about krav.



> Yeah, I haven't nor do I place emphasis on alliances and organizations. My KM instructor was a very skilled and knowledgeable Martial Artist. Not knowing the name of the organization he was certified under doesn't change the quality nor the legitimacy of his training.



Yeah, he may be good, but that doesn't mean that you'd know much about Krav to be talking about it like you're some kind of authority, especially after admitting that you've never really trained Krav beyond the Level 1 classes when you drop in, ie. by Groupons.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> You admitted to only dropping in to Krav gyms = you haven't trained Krav seriously enough to understand it past Level 1, as proven by what you post. Because most of what you post about Krav, sounds just like what's taught in Level 1 classes and Youtube advertisements about krav.


 FriedRice, you seem to be reading comments I haven't typed. You see want you want to see and make a lot of unfounded assumptions off of it. I would encourage you to go back and *read *what I *actually *typed.  



FriedRice said:


> Yeah, he may be good, but that doesn't mean that you'd know much about Krav to be talking about it like you're some kind of authority, especially after admitting that you've never really trained Krav beyond the Level 1 classes when you drop in, ie. by Groupons.


Again, my comment clearly stated that I've trained with 2 KM instructors, cross-trained with KM students and have attended numerous KM seminars. All of my KM training and interactions have been with mid to high level practitioners from different organizations. Yes, I have enough experience with KM to share my impressions of it and what limitations it has.


----------



## FriedRice (Jul 4, 2018)

Anarax said:


> FriedRice, you seem to be reading comments I haven't typed. You see want you want to see and make a lot of unfounded assumptions off of it. I would encourage you to go back and *read *what I *actually *typed.
> 
> Again, my comment clearly stated that I've trained with 2 KM instructors, cross-trained with KM students and have attended numerous KM seminars. All of my KM training and interactions have been with mid to high level practitioners from different organizations. Yes, I have enough experience with KM to share my impressions of it and what limitations it has.



numerous KM seminars = drop ins = similar to Groupons, but more expensive. 

Training Average for Level 2 testing = usually 1 year at 3x /wk = 156 classes

You  been to over 100 Krav seminars?


----------



## Anarax (Jul 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> numerous KM seminars = drop ins = similar to Groupons, but more expensive.
> 
> Training Average for Level 2 testing = usually 1 year at 3x /wk = 156 classes
> 
> You  been to over 100 Krav seminars?



I have broken down my points to the technical and scientific level so you could understand. You have done nothing but insult, deflect and ignore what I've *actually* said. Your only train of thought is insult, insult, insult when presented with a point you can't provide any counter-argument for.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I have broken down my points to the technical and scientific level so you could understand. You have done nothing but insult, deflect and ignore what I've *actually* said. Your only train of thought is insult, insult, insult when presented with a point you can't provide any counter-argument for.


It's not a new pattern, Anarax.


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## FriedRice (Jul 5, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I have broken down my points to the technical and scientific level so you could understand. You have done nothing but insult, deflect and ignore what I've *actually* said. Your only train of thought is insult, insult, insult when presented with a point you can't provide any counter-argument for.



No you haven't. And I'm merely pointing out, that by your own admission, you haven't trained Krav Maga seriously and don't know much about it other than the Level 1 curriculum that they teach you from your few drop in classes and even fewer seminars attended.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> No you haven't. And I'm merely pointing out, that by your own admission, you haven't trained Krav Maga seriously and don't know much about it other than the Level 1 curriculum that they teach you from your few drop in classes and even fewer seminars attended.


Nope. You're not really reading his posts. That's not what he said, at all. It's just what you WANT him to have said, so you can be right.


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