# Self Traning and Ranking Group



## American HKD (Nov 17, 2004)

Greetings,

I propose a group dedicated to teaching, ranking, and propagating the art of Korean Hapkido independent of any other group. No politics need be here!

This group will not have any membership dues. 

1. A testing or promotion board of three masters and no single person can issue any Dan rank even the person's own instructor. (A vote can choose the board and re-elect every year or two if needed) 

2. A minimum rank requirements with minimum time in rank for all belts through 4th Dan. (published on the web somewhere with our credtials and requirement) 

3. No other governing obligations.
4. Seminars and workshops as people want.

5. The rest is up to the individual school/instructor.

6. No fees other than reasonable testing or rank fees and seminar fees.

7. Membership only requires one hold a dan rank from us or they train under a members school.

8. No one has to quit his or her current Association or ties to belong.

There's no reason why people like Hal, Holcombe, Myself, Fabian and others can't issue our own very credible Dan ranks as a group. I think the ranks will be as good as any out there today.

We don't need Koreans for any validation anymore.

This is a no brainer and long over due.

If any High Dans support this idea please contact me personally. I will dedicate my time and resources to make this happen and be good for all involved.


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> There's no reason why people like Hal, Holcombe, Myself, Fabian and others can't issue our own very credible Dan ranks as a group. I think the ranks will be as good as any out there today.
> 
> We don't need Koreans for any validation anymore.


Seems a little...hmmm...

Never mind.  Not going to go there.


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## American HKD (Nov 17, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Seems a little...hmmm...
> 
> Never mind. Not going to go there.


Jeremy,

If your not a newbie to HKD or KMA you would realize that a piece of paper from someone in Korea who has no idea who you are dosen't care about you is not that great. I've been there done that.

But when people here in your own country *with the same rank and skills* as the people in Korea see you test you and validate your rank isn't that worth a a lot more? 

Or are you hung up on the Koreans are better and know more then other American Masters and you must bend over for them?


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

SM, please go there........... I have been a proponent of this for a while now, but would like to hear your viewpoint.


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 17, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Jeremy,
> 
> If your not a newbie to HKD or KMA you would realize that a piece of paper from someone in Korea who has no idea who you are dosen't care about you is not that great. I've been there done that.
> 
> ...


My first issue is your "us" vs "them" mentality.  Us being Americans and Them being Koreans.  Like somehow it is the Koreans in general who are the problem.

It's not the Koreans who are the problem.  There are Koreans who are part of the problem, as there are Americans who are part of the problem, as there are people of MANY nationalities who are part of the problem.  

The problem is greed.  The problem is pride.  Americans OR Koreans OR anyone with an excess of these problems are the issue.  

My second issue is that I don't think this will bring all hapkidoists together.  I think adding another governing body will open the door for another round of political squabbling and further polerization.  That's not what we need.  

I'm all for more seminars and get togethers and what have you.  But the promotion by other's aspect = a new governing body.

I'll leave my promotions up to my master.  I trust that she will promote me when I deserve the promotion, and hold me back if I need to be held back.  She's the person who sees me 5+ hours a week, so she knows at what level I started at and how far I've come better then anyone.  So it's called "honor thy teacher".

Jeremy


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## Andrew Green (Nov 17, 2004)

If what you want is no politics, no greed, just training, then why would you need ANOTHER political organization?

Don't bother, just all be independent with people you like to train with and have fun.

The structure is the problem, and you're using basically the same structure.


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## American HKD (Nov 17, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> My first issue is your "us" vs "them" mentality. Us being Americans and Them being Koreans. Like somehow it is the Koreans in general who are the problem.
> 
> It's not the Koreans who are the problem. There are Koreans who are part of the problem, as there are Americans who are part of the problem, as there are people of MANY nationalities who are part of the problem.
> 
> ...


Jeremy

I can tell by your responces you are new and nieve to the realities of the Hapkido world. I'm sorry nothing personal I don't have the energy to try to educate you in this forum and I cant give you my 25 years expirience in this Art. 

At your level you should rely on your Master that's where any good students head should be I respect you for that.

*Please without offense to anyone.*

*This post is geared towards Instructors and Masters who been around the block so to speak and have a 4th, 5th dan or more in HKD.*
*You are the people who are in positions to have a voice and make things happen. *


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## jkn75 (Nov 17, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> *This post is geared towards Instructors and Masters who been around the block so to speak and have a 4th, 5th dan or more in HKD.*
> *You are the people who are in positions to have a voice and make things happen. *



But then who will be in your organization? Yes, certain people can make things happen as far as creating the organization, but future members may have some concerns and questions. As you know, regardless of rank, you can learn quite a bit from people who ask off the wall questions. 

If this is only targeted towards high ranking hapkido people, why post in a public forum? Why not contact them in private? 

Not everyone knows your 25 year history in Hapkido. You may have good reasons to start a new organization but they may be bogus. The Korean Martial Art forum spends a great amount of time trying to discover these things. We are very curious about history and motivations behind any organization. 

I wish you luck in your endeavor but people are going to comment, that is the boon (and bane) of a public forum.


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## American HKD (Nov 17, 2004)

jkn75 said:
			
		

> But then who will be in your organization? Yes, certain people can make things happen as far as creating the organization, but future members may have some concerns and questions. As you know, regardless of rank, you can learn quite a bit from people who ask off the wall questions.
> 
> If this is only targeted towards high ranking hapkido people, why post in a public forum? Why not contact them in private?
> 
> ...


Greetings,

You have some good questions and I respect your curiousity but, as I stated it's for seniors to work out not every one who had one HKD lesson if you get my drift.

I'm sure you don't butt into a group of seniors and start getting to thier converstaion uninvited? Respect, Maners, Knowing when and where to speak is part of HKD training too.

I'm sorry to sound like I'm picking on you. You can start another thread to talk about it with yourselves or be immature and interupt this thread if it every gets going.


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## Disco (Nov 17, 2004)

Stuart, we have items that we see sort of eye to eye on, but I feel your a tad outside the box with your comments stipulating only senior players need to respond. Your initial post did not state that intent, so the door was opened, on an open forum, which lends itself for all to participate. Granted the questions presented were old ones, but the new people should be given the opportunity to learn, even if it's tedium for those of us that have been there. 

Respectfully
Mike


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## iron_ox (Nov 18, 2004)

Hello all,

Such a group to model from has been in existence in the UK for MANY years, called the Amateur Martial Association, they are totally self regulated across lots of arts, the same model would work easily with one.  If interested, I think I can dredge up some info.


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## iron_ox (Nov 18, 2004)

Also, how about a forum geared toward those of us with a few years in?  They have one here for the senior Kenpo guys?  

How about us?


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## ajs1976 (Nov 18, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Also, how about a forum geared toward those of us with a few years in? They have one here for the senior Kenpo guys?
> 
> How about us?


You guys and MT can do what you want.  but from the perspective of someone with no time in who is using these discussions to learn about hapkido, the idea of a restricted board sucks.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Such a group to model from has been in existence in the UK for MANY years, called the Amateur Martial Association, they are totally self regulated across lots of arts, the same model would work easily with one. If interested, I think I can dredge up some info.


Kevin,

To me this post will be the tell tale sign of what the seniors on this board are *willing to do* or just continue to talk about the problems with our current Associations and do nothing.

I see this as a hugh step in unity of people, curriculum, ideas, brotherhood, without the negitive asspects. My proposal is simple, non-restrictive, and low cost, all that's needed in for people to unite.

If it doesn't and we hear the same thing over and over I'll understand most are full of you know what.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Stuart, we have items that we see sort of eye to eye on, but I feel your a tad outside the box with your comments stipulating only senior players need to respond. Your initial post did not state that intent, so the door was opened, on an open forum, which lends itself for all to participate. Granted the questions presented were old ones, but the new people should be given the opportunity to learn, even if it's tedium for those of us that have been there.
> 
> Respectfully
> Mike


Mike,

I know who you are so I'll give you some explanations.

First the younger folks can learn by listening and reading they don't always have to talk.

Lower ranking student don't teach professionally, don't have the expirience, don't issue rank, arn't responsible for the next generation of students so in a sense they just don't count in this case plain and simple.

Do you consult a 5th Gup before issuing rank to a 1st Dan or do you get a 1st Dans opinion to promote someone to 5th Dan. That's just non-sense of course!

The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts is not a democratic system of everyones vote counts and all have a voice. It's quite clear that many American students don't understand the teachings and conduct of Traditional MA culture. 

I sugguest they learn about it, as well as learning when thier opinions are relavent to some discussions.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

Dear Folks: 

In theory, I can support what being said. Maybe here is another way to think about the approach. 

A lesser known operating system for computers is "Red Hat". Its an open souce system that a lot of people like. Its not actually "owned" or "operated" by anyone in the usual sense, and people who use it work to make it better because to do so helps everyone else. 

Now, WINDOWS is far better recognized, is managed by a corporation, is used by a far greater number of people in their computers. One is not actually "better" than the other but they definitely draw different kinds of people. 

If a person were to do something like this with Hapkido arts it would require people to do many of the following. 

1.) Park their rank and standing at the door before they come it. 

2.) Set aside political affiliations and slavish support to this personality or that.

3.) Think out of the box, study-up on subjects and pitch-in without thought of compensation or recognition.

4.) Learn to function among the group without being controlled by an external ethic (IE Membership by-laws, organization rules) but rather by an internal ethic (IE. altruism, idealism).

These are pretty tall orders and I wonder if people are ready for a challenge such as this. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Folks:
> 
> In theory, I can support what being said. Maybe here is another way to think about the approach.
> 
> ...


Bruce 

I don't believe this to be has hard as you think.

The challanges are getting a few well respected seniors to endorse it and agree on a curriculum. That's it.

The rest is cake a testing board once or twice a year or a few seminar dates?

My concern is the seniors will just sit in the tenches of old with thier ranks and status taking it to the grave or will they help set up something better for the future of the younger generation so they won't have to go through what we did.

WHO'S EVER ON BOARD WITH THIS IDEA CONTACT ME DIRECTLY TO BEGIN PLANNING.


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## howard (Nov 18, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> If what you want is no politics, no greed, just training, then why would you need ANOTHER political organization?
> 
> Don't bother, just all be independent with people you like to train with and have fun.
> 
> The structure is the problem, and you're using basically the same structure.


sadly, i believe this gentleman is correct.

i admire the idealism in this thread, but the cynical side of me says to follow the above advice.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

howard said:
			
		

> sadly, i believe this gentleman is correct.
> 
> i admire the idealism in this thread, but the cynical side of me says to follow the above advice.


Howard,

1. Who said anything about a POLITICAL ORGANIZATION?
2. This is what people wanted and spoke about a united Hapkido.

My outline is to do just that with *minimum requirements*, *no dues*, *no bosses*, *no giving up old ties to any other Associations*, *the only requirment is to test for rank!*

The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.

I guess it just too simple!


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## Disco (Nov 18, 2004)

Stuart, Thanks for your reply. I understand were your coming from and I am in agreement with you on the issues you presented.

As you stated, The challanges are getting a few well respected seniors to endorse it and agree on a curriculum. That's it.

This idea has been labored not only by yourself but by yours truely for the past year. We have been on several forums professing the same agenda. All have met with less than accepting response. We are caught in a catch 22 of sorts. For a new organization to have any chance for acceptance / validity, a person(s) of sufficient rank is needed. I don't think any will be coming forward to offer participation. They have had sufficient time already to answer the bell. I don't have the answer, I wish I did. People like you who honestly give of yourself to train and respect your art deserve something better than what's available now. It's a nasty circle of rank dosen't mean anything until something needs to be addressed and then rank becomes paramount. Danmed if you do and damned if you don't. 

Anyway, you have my support, for what it's worth. If I can help in any way, just let me know.

Respectfully
Mike


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> Stuart, Thanks for your reply. I understand were your coming from and I am in agreement with you on the issues you presented.
> 
> As you stated, The challanges are getting a few well respected seniors to endorse it and agree on a curriculum. That's it.
> 
> ...


Mike,

Thank You I appreciate your insights and assesment of the sad state of affairs in our Hapkido community.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 18, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

"........The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.

I guess it just too simple!......" 

No. I don't think this is TOO SIMPLE at all. Furthermore I don't think people are having as hard a time understanding what is going on in the last few strings as they pretend. 

My sense is that people in a position of influence, once they see that there is nothing significant for them to gain, find some reaason to dismiss it. If what was being advocated was a new organization in dire need of a leader, we would probably have a half dozen people touting their resumes and offering reasons why they or their art should be in a position of power and influence. 

After my last post to Mike ("Disco") I took some time to go over the last four strings that have been worked on in the last two weeks here on MT. What I saw was a LOT of repeating the same questions over and over again as though each time a person posted they were reading the string for the first time, or only just the previous post. I read the same suspicious inquiries about "who is going to be in charge" and "what will it cost". 

People are shying away from this because it entails that they will actually have to DO something and as such will have made a commitment to others as equals. In a previous string  I asked some very concrete questions about a minimal standard (to wit: what about the roundhouse kick; what about the crescent kicks). Nothing! If I had asked about why everyone should be abandoning their arts to train under Dojunim Kim because his art is the most authentic, I would have had half a dozen posters venting their opinions. 

And while I am at it let me say a little something about the folks who figure this is all "just talk" and the REAL HAPKIDO is out on the mat training. What is happening on these strings IS Hapkido. We are learning to work with our partners here just like we learn to work with our partners on the mat. To me all that bluster about "real hapkido" being on the mat just means that the person blowing that stuff around has become very good at taking care of himself and his needs. Feeling inadequate about being able to communicate in a group of equals they abandon the group unless they can speak from a position of superiority. 

I am afraid we have a long way to go before folks are ready for an "adult relationship." Until then I think the social dynamics here will be closer to a high school locker room. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> "........The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.
> 
> ...


Bruce 

I agree with your assements here that's why were not hearing from seniors right now.

IMO they have everything to gain here Real Honor, Real Respect, Real Commitment to HKD, not Political Positions and Association Status.


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## jkn75 (Nov 18, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> I'm sure you don't butt into a group of seniors and start getting to thier converstaion uninvited? Respect, Maners, Knowing when and where to speak is part of HKD training too.



Very true. I don't butt in to a private conversation, for example I wouldn't barge into an office and interrupt a conversation unless there was an emergency. 

However, I will listen to the conversation if it's occuring around me. I will also participate in a polite manner, especially if something comes up that is within my area of expertise. For example, if I was a physics professor and masters were talking about physics, I would let them know my background and offer my help. I have had masters specifically ask me questions because they knew my area of expertise outside of the martial arts realm. 

Organizations do not exist in a vacuum, and even though you want no politics there will still need to be rules:
How will those rules be enforced? What if a school claims certification in your organization but does not actually have it? Are you legally protected? A fifth dan or above can answer these question but so can an attorney. Who would you rather have answer some of those questions? Don't discount people because they don't hold rank. They may have skills and expertise outside martial arts that they may be willing to offer at a discount because of the common interest in the martial arts (ask any school or club owner who is lucky enough to have a graphic designer for a student).

I think your first thread should have ended in 





> WHO'S EVER ON BOARD WITH THIS IDEA CONTACT ME DIRECTLY TO BEGIN PLANNING.


This would have allowed further discussion by people who you do not want commenting and allowed you to continue a private conversation with those you seek. I believe you are on the training floor, not in the office, so I see no reason why there shouldn't be open comment and discussion. If you wanted a private conversation, a public forum is not the place to do it.


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## iron_ox (Nov 18, 2004)

jkn75 said:
			
		

> Very true. I don't butt in to a private conversation, for example I wouldn't barge into an office and interrupt a conversation unless there was an emergency.
> 
> However, I will listen to the conversation if it's occuring around me. I will also participate in a polite manner, especially if something comes up that is within my area of expertise. For example, if I was a physics professor and masters were talking about physics, I would let them know my background and offer my help. I have had masters specifically ask me questions because they knew my area of expertise outside of the martial arts realm.
> 
> ...



  If you have something to add, then just add it.  Your post is like a kid that gets into grown folks conversation, then complains they don't let him talk...and is by speaking  IN the conversation.  Now, I am not saying your a kid, but hey if you have a constructive idea, let fly - we all listen pretty good - but to question the why's and how's of something still in a construt stage is putting the bull before the horns here.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

jkn75 said:
			
		

> Very true. I don't butt in to a private conversation, for example I wouldn't barge into an office and interrupt a conversation unless there was an emergency.
> 
> However, I will listen to the conversation if it's occuring around me. I will also participate in a polite manner, especially if something comes up that is within my area of expertise. For example, if I was a physics professor and masters were talking about physics, I would let them know my background and offer my help. I have had masters specifically ask me questions because they knew my area of expertise outside of the martial arts realm.
> 
> ...


Dear Ink75,

So what you telling us here is that your an expert in all the problems with HKD organizations and your a Hapkido Instructor who has had the necessary background and expirience to offer opinions equal senior masters and instructors who have spent years dealing with such issues.

If that's the case please accept my apology and let me know your background so you can help form this group if it interests you.

Moreover you must realize only senior masters and instructors can make this happen not lower dan or gup ranks I'm sorry.


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## jkn75 (Nov 18, 2004)

Iron_Ox,

No, I'm not "in" the conversation. It was expressly stated, if you are not a high ranking person in hapkido, don't reply. I also felt my etiquette was called into question and I think that's a bit unfair. 

When should/would we question an organization? Why not in the formative stages? If the goal is to provide a different, quality organization free from the problems of other organizations, why not ask some questions in the formative stages. Why not get input from lower level black belts? 

American HKD:

No, I'm not an expert in Hapkido, or hapkido problems but my background is in law. If you are in the planning stages of an organization, there may be areas specifically related to law that may be important and my background is more valuable than my rank and organization. I also own a KMA school. I may not be a fifth degree but I have concerns in that capacity. If I wanted to join your organization, I would want my concerns addressed. 

With that said, my concerns for any organization are these: lower level black belts will be the bulk of your organization eventually. These are the people who will be testing in front of masters and seeking higher ranks to become future masters. Other organizations already ignore us, why would we need another one? We are told as part of etiquette to sit back and let the masters handle it. Yet, masters have handled things so well, lower ranks are unhappy with their organizations, are untrained and are left to fend for themselves. How will your organization enforce the high goals you have set? 

What will be the requirements to open a school? Will there be instructor/ school owner seminars? What about business plans/ models? Will a similar three master panel be called in case of school owner disputes? What are the minimum distances between schools? Who gets to vote for the three person panel? A Fifth Dan and a First Dan obviously have differences in years in training but should a Fifth dan get 5 votes while a first dan gets one? It may be too early for these question and these things may not be hashed out yet which is understandable. If so, just say "no, we haven't thought about these things yet, they will be addressed." 

Obviously, the state of Hapkido has made you so unhappy that the only reprieve you can find is in creating your own organization. Kudos to you because that is a big step.


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## Paul B (Nov 18, 2004)

> When should/would we question an organization? Why not in the formative stages? If the goal is to provide a different, quality organization free from the problems of other organizations, why not ask some questions in the formative stages. Why not get input from lower level black belts?


 
Good call. No....us lower ranks can't "make" it happen,but we can certainly help if needed.



> lower level black belts will be the bulk of your organization eventually. These are the people who will be testing in front of masters and seeking higher ranks to become future masters.


Eventually....but right now we need to offer to "get in at that base floor",so to speak. I have nothing to offer except my love of Hapkido and a strong work ethic,but I think that counts for something,no?


That's all I have,sorry to interject...but I had to say something.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 18, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Howard,
> 
> 1. Who said anything about a POLITICAL ORGANIZATION?


It is an organization, therefore politics will come into play whether you like it or not, same as in every other organization.




> 2. This is what people wanted and spoke about a united Hapkido.


How often do people really know what they want?  AND what they want is possible.  Idealism is nice, but not the way things really work.  As soon as you form another organization which is basically the same in structure, but a few things whifted around you will have all the same problems as before.  This is what has happened with hundred of other martial arts organizations and this wouldn't be any different



> My outline is to do just that with *minimum requirements*, *no dues*, *no bosses*, *no giving up old ties to any other Associations*, *the only requirment is to test for rank!*


Who sets them?  who judges them?

Right there you already got leaders and power given to certain people, and politics will leave others fighting for it, and to control it.  If an organization has any position of power within it there will be political games played.

Best solution - No organization, no positions of power, just people that like to train together.  




> The only problem is people egos, They wont be able to make money from it, they won't be able to be the boss. They only actually have to train, learn, grow, and test for rank.
> 
> I guess it just too simple!


No, you already gave positions of power out, those that can set standards and test others.  Power is often as much a motivator for political problems as money is, cause really, there is rarely any money to be made in martial arts organizations.

Train, learn, grow, forget the rank.

You can't have rank and not have positions of power, that is the whole purpose of rank.


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## American HKD (Nov 18, 2004)

jkn75 said:
			
		

> Iron_Ox,
> 
> No, I'm not "in" the conversation. It was expressly stated, if you are not a high ranking person in hapkido, don't reply. I also felt my etiquette was called into question and I think that's a bit unfair.
> 
> ...


.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

So it comes down to a very simple question, doesn't? 

*Would the people here willfully choose to help other people regardless of 

affiliation without thought of gain, recognition or profit and without being 

compelled or directed to do so by some external authority such as an 

organization or a hierarchy? * 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 19, 2004)

Hello all,

Isn't that in part what we do here?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Yes---- in part, Kevin.

However, what goes on in the back of my mind is always the concern that somehow I will be coerced or recruited into one persons' view of how things are to be done. 

I remember when I first went to JR Wests' International some years back. I heard what it was represented as, but I had serious concerns that once I was there I would be pressured to do things a particular way, or be quietly pushed to join his organization to get full benefits of his event. It was a wonderful experience to be together with other folks who wanted only to train and communicate together. 

What I see a strong need for is to continually press the idea that this is a program of "invitation" and the "invitation" is open-ended and unqualified. I have every reason to believe that long-standing Hapkido practitioners will find counterparts as time goes on. Relative novices will benefit by hanging around people who have been training longer. But let me say one more time that I think it is very important that folks who get involved with what we do not feel as though they are having a particular approached shoved down their throat. If what we do smacks of any kind of quality I'd bet people will be drawn to it simply for that reason alone. I think our passions and our dedication will speak FOR us. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 19, 2004)

Hello all,

I think what is called for here is a combination of all the things that have been discussed - but rather than consider it an association - and all the baggage that goes with it, why not think of it and run it like a standards institute?  Majot universities are not all of the same political or social background but may be accredited by the same organization based on a set of standards that have nothing to do with any affiliation.

So, for example, I think you should not shoot for minimum stnadartds, but just standards - such as (this is an example):

3 years training required before blackbelt - 2-3 times a week 
x number of breakaways
x number of same side wrist releases
etc. - but looking for technical expertise
an understanding of Hapkido's three principles - maybe a written explanation here
if we are speaking Hapkido, a verifiable background in a Choi or Ji lineage

As the North American Hapkido Standards Institute there is no concern about politics or dropping your current affiliation - meet "these" standards for belt recognition.  THis would look at TECHNICAL MERIT - not social merit, how well you teach, whatever.  As a standards institute, there should be no concern about whether you run a commercial or private dojang, etc, and rank could then be simply verified through the institute.

This approach is non-political, and non-partisan - meet this criteria and thats it.  Meet yearly, train and evaluate.

I think this is the way to go. In my opinion.


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> I think what is called for here is a combination of all the things that have been discussed - but rather than consider it an association - and all the baggage that goes with it, why not think of it and run it like a standards institute? Majot universities are not all of the same political or social background but may be accredited by the same organization based on a set of standards that have nothing to do with any affiliation.
> 
> ...


Kevin


You and I are saying the same thing.

I have professional Engineering Certificates in my field of commercial and industrial Fire Alarm Design thought that type of Certifying Standards Agency. 

There are strict guidelines, recommendation from engineers, annual dues, Exams, you must have certian times in the field just to sit for various degree levels no different from any Hapkido Association. 

So my original idea is all of that call it any name but it's still the same thing.


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## iron_ox (Nov 19, 2004)

Hello Stuart,

Yep, I agree, nothing reall "new" about my post, but the idea of an "institute" is a-political and non-organizational enough I think for us all to agree on...


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## Bob D. (Nov 19, 2004)

American HKD:
"The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts is not a democratic system of everyones vote counts and all have a voice. It's quite clear that many American students don't understand the teachings and conduct of Traditional MA culture. "

My group is/has been going through a similar process for about 15 years now.
One thing most of us agree on is we are culturally Americans and that the  Cunfucian model does not work for us as Americans. 
You state you wish to break away from the Korean run organizations yet you want to hold on to their outdated and un-American (culturally) Cunfucian idea. 

It seems you all want to maintain the traditional Hapkido syllibus (if one could agree what that is), and you want to maintain "The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts" with it's focus on hierarchy. 
It sort of seems contradictory (to your reasons for leaving the Koreans)and certianly a major roadblock to success.
I don't know what the answer is for you but thought I'd bring this up as we've gone through this and discussed it for years. Our goals sound different in regards to maintaining tradition so our answers would not necessarily apply.
I think it very important for you all to consider though.
Regards, Bob


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

Bob D. said:
			
		

> American HKD:
> "The Confucian philosophy of the Martial Arts is not a democratic system of everyones vote counts and all have a voice. It's quite clear that many American students don't understand the teachings and conduct of Traditional MA culture. "
> 
> My group is/has been going through a similar process for about 15 years now.
> ...


Yes I see your point but for example; in america common respect for elders should be practiced I learned that from my parents. Knowing how and when to ask in a respectable manor is along those lines as well. 

It really doesn't have to be "The Confucian philosophy" but that ties into MA and a system of teaching values that may be lacking in our culture. 

But whatever you call common courtesy and good morals it should be the same in the end.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Dear Bob: 

I have a little different take on the subject, but not so very different from what you shared. 

I admire the survivalist pragmatism of the Korean people which has often helped them through some very trying times. I often examine my own conduct, scrutinizing with a lens constructed of my best understanding of how folks from such a culture might consider what I do and how I do it. Admittedly there is a meaningful percentage of fantasy, romance and guesswork in these efforts. For me, however, a big portion of the credit is in making the effort.  The reason I share this is that I think there needs to be a clear line drawn between wanting to "act" like a Korean, and wanting to emmulate qualities that one admires. In the final analysis for me, saying I train in Korean MA goes beyond "dress-up", using fractured English and executing exotic MA techniques. It comes from wanting to understand howe they came to make the choices that they made, and striving to find in my own life the sorts of results history records for them. 

If I have been lucky enough to make myself understood relating very difficult thoughts, maybe this helps explain why, ultimately, I do not need an organization, or hierarchy and why I find them more of a hinderance or a help. I have rarely (ever?) heard someone say that they have found a deeper sense of Self by being a member of XYZ organization, nor have I had folks report that they are better people for having gotten a rank. What I HAVE heard is a person report in the quiet of a lockerroom that they almost quit the workout, but surprised themselves by staying with it. Such opportunities are what Hapkido people need, not more organizations nor do we need organizations to make such opportunities happen.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Master Todd Miller (Nov 19, 2004)

I have rarely (ever?) heard someone say that they have found a deeper sense of Self by being a member of XYZ organization, nor have I had folks report that they are better people for having gotten a rank. What I HAVE heard is a person report in the quiet of a lockerroom that they almost quit the workout, but surprised themselves by staying with it. Such opportunities are what Hapkido people need, not more organizations nor do we need organizations to make such opportunities happen. 

I have learned a great deal from my present Association, 
*Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Association*

An organization needs a competent Master or Grandmaster to be in charge!  This will insure that the next generation will pass things on to the future the important key points to the future generations.

I would be willing to talk about minimum standerds as long as they are not just taken from ALL Hapkido associations!  There are very few that are Hapkido!  Off balencing, body positioning, skill are very important not just marketing & rank promotions!

Another Organization, Im not sure this will help due to the differing opinions of what Hapkido should be!

I am perfectly satisfied with my Association and there rank requirements.

www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Dear Todd: 

"......An organization needs a competent Master or Grandmaster to be in charge! This will insure that the next generation will pass things on to the future the important key points to the future generations......" 

Maybe you might want to operationally define "in charge". I think you will find that the oriental definition and the Western definition differ significantly. I could be off-base on this but the standard interpretation of "in charge" here in the West seems to be along the lines of "power or authority resides with....". The Oriental take on this is more along the lines of "guidance is provided by....".  Since most folks I know assume that participation in the Hapkido arts is something they are passing through on their way to somewhere else, I guess I can understand where you are coming from. My understanding of these arts is that they are a matter of development that is on-going and never quite completed. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Nov 20, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Kevin,
> 
> To me this post will be the tell tale sign of what the seniors on this board are *willing to do* or just continue to talk about the problems with our current Associations and do nothing.
> 
> ...



Greetings Stuart:
Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????

I started what you are still talking about back in the early 70s, and I am sure JR has had an equal if not longer experience doing "his thing".  We (at least I) did it for the very same reasons you have stated.  We had similar problems way back then, and we DID do something about it.  So, it sort of galls me to have you imply that the seniors of this forum do not DO anything.  We DID something about it thirty years ago.

JR has a great series of seminars going, and I dare say that folks enjoy the ones I put on as well.  In addition, we both travel wherever our members are located.  We are not talking part time here, we are talking a full time effort to promote Hap Ki Do and help people who are interested in learning.  Yes, we both charge, but I believe our fees are reasonable... else people would not attend.  $35.00 for a lifetime membership with FREE training anytime someone comes to visit me.  $45.00 for a weekend long seminar where we work, sweat, and learn together.  Does this sound to anyone as though I am getting filthy rich from NKMAA???   In addition, I have also given a number of free seminars to help out fellow martial artists.  All of this I did (and still do on a daily basis) without the help of the folks who are still in the talking stages here. 

NKMAA IS a Government registered non profit association.  I DO earn a modest living from teaching in my school; however, I only began earning a living from martial arts after I injured myself at work in 1983.  Before that, I never took a penny from my school and turned every dollar back into training so I could do a better job for my students.  Anyone here who is willing (and able) to NOT have an income of some sort????  Please tell me again why I should drop what I have worked for thirty some years to build (without anyone's help) so I can stop earning a living.  While you are at it, send a memo to JR and tell him that he should join this new group so he can cancel his Jackson seminars.  I am sure that the folks who so tremendously enjoy attending our seminars will appreciate us abandoning them for something that has not withstood the test of time (and may never get off the ground).

Sorry to sound a bit cynical here folks, but it really blows my mind to read an insinuation that Senior members are NOT willing to work for the good of Hap Ki Do.  Where the heck were you all thirty some years ago when I had the same conversations with North-American leaders of Korean martial arts.  More recently I saw Hal take a beating for his eforts to do his best for the Korean martial arts community despite all the hard work HE did.  Who was there to help him when he asked for your support.  

Like one gentleman said... why do you need another org, and what makes you think you can run it (with a group of ranking martial artists) without getting into politics???  JR and I, as well as several other leaders in Korean martial arts support one another as it is.  I work free at his seminars, and I pay my own way to drive nearly 3000 miles return trip to assist those who come to his event.  Perhaps he will do the same for me someday, but if he does not it is OK.  I do it because I care enough to assist him in his efforts.

I also encourage people to join JRs organization if they are closer to him, and JR does the same in return.  Neither of us worry about losing a member, because we care more about our members than we care about the few dollars they represent.  Oddly enough, most of them remain members of BOTH organizations.  I write this not to try and dissuade you from doing what you think must be done, I simply give you a few reasons why some Senior leaders are not responding.  In the end, I truly wish you the best, because I DO care about Hap Ki Do.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 20, 2004)

Thank you, Rudy. I think it probably carries more weight coming from you than it did coming from me a couple of strings back. 

If we are going to talk about organizations and hierarchies, then it would follow that there are "good ones" and "bad ones". The choice seems plain that we can deride the bad ones and support the good ones or some combination of the two. For my part I am not a huge fan of organizations, but if I were I would think that throwing my weight behind existing organizations (of which there is quite a choice) and supporting the organization which I found met my needs would be a better approach. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Nov 20, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Thank you, Rudy. I think it probably carries more weight coming from you than it did coming from me a couple of strings back.
> 
> If we are going to talk about organizations and hierarchies, then it would follow that there are "good ones" and "bad ones". The choice seems plain that we can deride the bad ones and support the good ones or some combination of the two. For my part I am not a huge fan of organizations, but if I were I would think that throwing my weight behind existing organizations (of which there is quite a choice) and supporting the organization which I found met my needs would be a better approach.
> 
> ...



Hello Bruce:
You have been to JRs events, and you have been to my events in Chicago and at my humble abode.  You know first hand that there were NO agendas, no one pressured you to join, and you were not treated any different because you were not a member of NKMAA.  In fact, you were a welcome addition to an nice group of people doing just what you are all talking about... training togethere in harmony with respect for all.  sure we had people on the floor who were NOT Hap Ki Doin, but we worked with them instead of sneering at them or otherwise making them feel unwelcome.  Is that not the "way".

NKMAA celebrates its 30th anniversary this year, and I dare say that it has grown more in the last five years than in the twenty-five years before that.  I attribute that to the fact that in the first 25 years I did not charge anything, and I did not take the lead so to speak.  NKMAA was at that time a group of people doing the same thing we are talking about here, and it did not go anywhere because it had no real leadership. Members bickered because they all had a say in what went on, and NO ONE would agree on ANYONE's ideas except their own.  

Politics were supposed to be left at the door, but with a group of high ranking martial artists this just did not happen.  I got sick and tired of the bickering and bull, just like we see on the forums.  Let's face it, we are a rare breed, and we seldom like to dance to anyone else's tunes when we get up in rank.  That is what makes organizations so difficult to run, unless there is ONE captain on the ship steering it in a direction that most can accept as reasonable and useful to their cause.

So, JR runs his ship in one direction, I take a slightly different course, but both of us provide a service to many people.  What is best about this is that we can do so amicably, and with reasonable support for one another.  This allows the members of each group to do what is in THEIR best interest, and we can still respect one another.  Like I said, we even support one another.  Now politics ARE left at the front door, because I remove anyone who brings BS to my house.  I am not sure, but I would assume that JR does exactly the same thing.  Could not do that until I took charge. 

Both of us (and a few others) CAN have reasonable relationships with Korean orgs, because we are in a position where these folks understand we do not totally rely on them.  So, the relationships are much more healthy than the one's I had before dealing from a stronger (large group) position.  Now, we can take the best of both worlds.

Before I run for cover, I suggest you folks take a look at some of the threads and posts you have made right here.  How often have you not bitched, complained, and even gotten downright nasty to one another.  People have treatened to leave, people have resorted to name calling, and the whole gamut of other things that usually happen in a group without a strong leader.  Folks cannot even be civil to one another on a consistent basis on a simple forum like this.  How in the hell are you going to run an org with that much strife already present???


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## iron_ox (Nov 20, 2004)

Hello all,

We as a group probably got like this because the "leaders" as we USED to define them did not represent themselves truthfully, created an air of conspiracy, and expected us to bow down to bogus rank claims, and outright lies about training and experience.

If a standards group threatens Rudy (or JR) then they need not participate - but Rudy, your post saying its a threat, then the next post saying that we all argue all the time smacks of your agenda - "hey, I'm already here, just join me..."

I asked everyone a few threads ago where some ranking came from for an individual you are involved with - and NO answer can be given except he is a nice guy, with some good technique - frankly, a perfect example of what divides us (see above) - what we are formulating here is an idea to establish ranking requirements that can be used across the board to help identify and teach and train in HAPKIDO - devoid of the various offshoots.  

Reading these posts carefully, we all agree this is not an "organization" - but a way to identify Hapkido and use this identification to grow WITHIN our own respective organizations by giving us a jumping off point of technical knowledge where we all agree.  This shouldn't affect anyones southern cray fish boils or nothern ice swimming - but it could draw us closer as a community - for those not interested, you have your own sandcastles you can build.


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## kwanjang (Nov 20, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> We as a group probably got like this because the "leaders" as we USED to define them did not represent themselves truthfully, created an air of conspiracy, and expected us to bow down to bogus rank claims, and outright lies about training and experience.
> 
> ...



Hello Kevin:
I am neither threatened nor intimidated by what is being suggested on this forum, and I am sure JR, Hal, Geoff, and other seniors are not either.  What I did say was: "I wish you success" or something like that, so don't twist my words into something that was not said.  

As far as a "standards" committee (or whatever you want to name it) is concerned.  I teach a hell of a lot more than what I have seen proposed so far, so I really can't say I am intimidated or worried about it.  My students can prove their worth on the mat anytime and, even though I am getting on in age, I will do my best to do the same for as long as I can.  

Funny how some of the loudest people on these forums can never be found on available mats such as Jackson, Hal's, Fabian's, mine, or other seminars.    I traveled 10 hours to get to train with someone who came to YOUR backyard to teach.  If you are so worried about his credentials, all you had to do was show up.  If getting on the mat with him was not your cup of tea, at least you could have watched.  THEN you would have been able to talk from PERSONAL experience with the man instead of casting stones from the sidelines.  Sorry if this seems a bit harsh, but I call em as I see em.  

With regards to GM Seo.  I follow who I wish to follow because of what he can teach me... not for what his rank is or is not.  I have NEVER said anything to the contrary.  I can DO this because I am NOT in an organization that wishes to set rules and make decisions that are exclusive to benefit YOUR agenda.  Hell, you folks even want to exclude the very people whom you are going to want to "control" by certification standards YOU and a "selected few" want to set. If what you propose is for the best of the Hap Ki Do community, why exclude the bulk of what makes up this community... the lower ranked Yudahnja ?????  Smacks of politics to me.

GM Seo IS  nice man IMHO, and that should not be a reason for me NOT to train with him.  As I said before.  I could care less what his rank is or what style he calls it.  IMHO he does good Hap Ki Do, and I want to learn more of it.  I do NOT sit on the sidelines and cast stones toward someone who is out on the mat teaching what in my opinion is good Hap Ki Do. You see, I am not interested in dividing, I am interested in bringing us together in brotherhood and harmony.  YOU say he does not teach Hap Ki Do.  I say he does (no matter what he has to call it in order to do business).  

As far as outright lies of experience and or accrediation.  MY accreditation has been posted on the DD for the world to see, and I could care less what anyone thinks about it.  Just as I like to learn from others who are willing to get  on the mat, I am fortunate enough to have people who want to learn what I have to share.  SOME of us train and/or teach instead of worrying about what rank others have.

Did you see anywhere in my post that I call for anyone to follow ME.  In fact, I said that Bruce (for one) was accepted at my Dojang without being a member, paid the same low fee of $45.00 as our members did for an entire weekend of good training, and he was NEVER was approached by ANYONE about joining NKMAA.  In fact, we were very pleased to have him share some of his stuff with us (even though it was different than what I teach).  I do NOT accept just anyone, and I do NOT cross rank for anyone who does not teach what I consider to be Hap Ki Do.  On the other hand, I do NOT condemn those who do something a slight bit different. So, how does that make ME not interested in serving the Hap Ki Do community as you say in your post.  

A steak is a steak is a steak, no matter how you wish to season it.  But, if it is NOT steak, I will not call it that no matter how much they want to pay me.  Is that not good enough?  If YOU want to say that ONLY those who are of a direct lineage to someone are legit, that is your business.  Just don't think the rest of us buy into that.  In fact, it is THAT type of hype which devides this community more than anything else.  FWIW, GM Seo at least did actually train with DJN Choi.  Mighty few of us can make that claim, can you????  

MY original post on this was very simple.  It was suggested that seniors on this forum are not doing anything to support Hap Ki Do.  My answer to that was "BULL".  I, and a number of others, have been DOING something for Hap Ki Do for decades, and we are still DOING it rather than talking it.  Perhaps in your eyes I am neither senior nor Hap Ki Do as it is defined to suit YOUR particular needs; but, there are those on this forum who have said otherwise. If you are not interested in what I have to say to them, no need to get huffy and tell me to go build sandcastles... just ignore my post 

IMHO, Hap Ki Do is not well served by people who are divisive.  Like Bruce has said a number of times.  Let's look for what we have in common rather than shun those who flavour their steak with a different spice.  If you are unwilling to recognize the efforts of GM Ji and other pioneers of our art, the result will be a mighty small group that will have NO influence on Hap Ki Do.  If that is the case, why bother?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 20, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

Thanks for putting in that one comment about my NOT being amember of your organization. It will help with this post so that people know that my question is not a promo for your particular organization. 

In fact my question is actually directed at Stuart. 

Dear Stuart: 

Having heard what Rudy has to offer, and accepting from me that JR would essentially offer the same assistance, would you be willing to advise us what it is that you think a new organization would do for you that Rudy or JR are not able to do as you see it. 

I don't know about anyone else but maybe this would help me understand what it is that you think a new organization would do that can't be done by suing organizations that are already available. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 20, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Greetings Stuart:
> Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????
> 
> I started what you are still talking about back in the early 70s, and I am sure JR has had an equal if not longer experience doing "his thing". We (at least I) did it for the very same reasons you have stated. We had similar problems way back then, and we DID do something about it. So, it sort of galls me to have you imply that the seniors of this forum do not DO anything. We DID something about it thirty years ago.
> ...


Dear Rudy 

No disrespect to you and JR. That fact that you both have an organzation is proof that you're doing something. And no one ever said your not a charitable man or that you should stop doing what your doing. Sorry Rudy 30 years ago I was not even a teenager.

My suggestion transends the individule entrapenuer like you, JR, Hwang Sik Myung, and everybody else trying to get a peice of the Hapkido pie however good thier intention are.

My plan is for No bosses, or individules in charge just mutual respect for all.
I only call for a universal minimum technical curriculum and people qualified to test others and teach.

I said back in the begining of these post my plan is simple and might not appeal to peole in the Hapkido business and no single person has anything to gain meaning, no power, no money, no prestige.

And truthfully why would you or JR or others give up thier peice of the Hapkido pie and even out the playing field so to speak. I don't expect you to, but it would be GREAT for you to endorse a universal minimum technical curriculum so if anyone comes to you with that credential in hand they'll be accepted without question.

I would really like to see you agree with me and help us I know a few people who think this idea has merit but is needs people like you on board.


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## kwanjang (Nov 20, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy
> 
> No disrespect to you and JR. That fact that you both have an organzation is proof that you're doing something. And no one ever said your not a charitable man or that you should stop doing what your doing. Sorry Rudy 30 years ago I was not even a teenager.
> 
> ...



Hello Stuart:
As I alluded to in one of my posts, I have lost faith in people working together for the common good without politics becoming a big problem.  Not because I don't believe in what you are trying to do, it is simply because of the results I have had over the many years of trying to get people to do similar things as you propose.

I fear that you too will be disappointed, and I do hope that this disappointment will not turn into bitterness as it might have with Fabian.  Like him, I opted to go it alone after many years of busting my butt trying; however, that does not mean I have stopped working to make Hap Ki Do better.  I do my piece to help Hap Ki Doin to the best of my ability, and that is what my initial post was all about.

I will continue to work with whomever is willing to make a difference, but so far I have not seen a solid plan.  I am not interested in dividing us even more as some on this forum propose, and that is why I sat on the sideline until your comment got me a bit excited .

Perhaps YOU have it straight in your mind, and perhaps your plan is great.  I just have not seen it translated into an understandable post on this forum.  Why don't you recap your plan, and put it into an easy to read format so we can get your drift.  As I said to you a long time ago here on this forum... I am willing to help you or anyone else who can make the Hap Ki Do community a better place for us all.  This does not mean I will stop working with, support, or learn from Korean practitioners, even though I have been hurt more than most by some Korean GMs.  I do not believe that, because I have had a few problems, it means every Korean is bad news.  I am just a bit more selective these days.

NKMAA is not political, and my members will not suffer if I back a good thing.  All of my members are free to join and/or stay with any group they wish.  I place NO restrictions on them, and I don't expect them to restrict me in what I believe in.  I offer decent looking and meaningful certification at a reasonable fee, and for most people in NKMAA that is all they want.  They do not want anyone telling them how to run their business, and I don't.  I do let them know if I think their curriculum is lacking a bit, and I offer solutions in the form of training and/or curriculum development to help them out.  I do NOT tell them that they are not welcome because of their limitations.  I do NOT certify them if I feel something is lacking, I offer HELP instead. 

I already have standards I adhere to in order to accomplish that, and a universally accepted minimum standard would be welcomed by me.  I do have reservations on making these "standards" a tool to get rid of people who want to study Hap Ki Do.  IMHO, that is NOT a way to spread the art, and IMHO that is NOT the "way" a martial artist should even think let alone act.  From what I have seen on this forum, some folks who are working with you have that very thing in mind. Perhaps I am wrong in that assumption, but that is what I read.  I HOPE I am wrong.


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## kwanjang (Nov 20, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Dear Rudy
> 
> ...it would be GREAT for you to endorse a universal minimum technical curriculum so if anyone comes to you with that credential in hand they'll be accepted without question...



Sorry I missed addressing this portion of your post.  To be honest, I already do this.  When I have someone come to me with a certificate from a number of well known Hap Ki Do people, I check it out with these people.  If it is correct, I accept it without question (even if what they do or know is not the same as what I do or know).  For example, I would accept without reservation anyone with certification or other proof of training from Hal, JR, Geoff, Holcombe, Fabian, etc. etc. whom I have worked with and seen around.

I do not have any problems adding people to this list once I have seen what they produce (not necessarily what they can do themselves), and with the amount of traveling I do my list grows.  Some good practitioners are unable to produce good students, and I would not think of promoting someone just because a person is a player himself.  It is the students who I need to be comfortable with.  Once I know a person produces good students I don't need to revisit that.  Simple, and it has worked for me so far.  Past that, all I can do is teach them what I know, and I insist that they keep what they already have instead of replacing it with what I show them.


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## American HKD (Nov 20, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Sorry I missed addressing this portion of your post. To be honest, I already do this. When I have someone come to me with a certificate from a number of well known Hap Ki Do people, I check it out with these people. If it is correct, I accept it without question (even if what they do or know is not the same as what I do or know). For example, I would accept without reservation anyone with certification or other proof of training from Hal, JR, Geoff, Holcombe, Fabian, etc. etc. whom I have worked with and seen around.
> 
> I do not have any problems adding people to this list once I have seen what they produce (not necessarily what they can do themselves), and with the amount of traveling I do my list grows. Some good practitioners are unable to produce good students, and I would not think of promoting someone just because a person is a player himself. It is the students who I need to be comfortable with. Once I know a person produces good students I don't need to revisit that. Simple, and it has worked for me so far. Past that, all I can do is teach them what I know, and I insist that they keep what they already have instead of replacing it with what I show them.


Dear Rudy,

It sounds as if your on board already and we do have alot of common ground.

The minimum is to spread good quality Hapkido not prevent others from doing it. To me the word minimum really means minimum not 400-500 techniques to black belt. Maybe half of that because much is repeated or strecthed out for the purpose of catalog. 

Lastly I proposed a testing board of 3 already approved people so if the 3 agree on promoting so and so it's without question to anyone. Mind you any school can teach as much as they want but the minimum is all that's required for rank.

To me that's all that's needed in the Hapkido community to unify people and ideas attitudes etc. 

Thank You


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## iron_ox (Nov 21, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Kevin:
> I am neither threatened nor intimidated by what is being suggested on this forum, and I am sure JR, Hal, Geoff, and other seniors are not either.  What I did say was: "I wish you success" or something like that, so don't twist my words into something that was not said.
> 
> *Correct, I misinterpreted what you said. Sorry.  You've got your own group and are satisfied with it.*
> ...



I was going to ignore your posts here, but the fact that you missed how well peolpe here have been interacting really struck me - I look at today when dealing with people, not yesterday, in the hope that things will always improve.  Thats all that set me off, and I frankly wasn't looking to or trying to be annoying to anyone - you or anyone else - I say this all in the friendliest of tones, but please, never represent that I would infer a comment.  I write without trying to do harm, but if I had something to say, and it could be said in proper context, I would say it.  I only question what is available on the internet for all to see, not closed information.


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## American HKD (Nov 21, 2004)

Greetings,

What I'm hearing from Rudy and way he runs NKMAA is that he will accept a core minimum standard which is basically what I wanted to hear and I commend Rudy for his open mindedness and courage to rise above the establishment.

I'd like to discuss Rudy's first reactions to this thread because this is what I expected to hear from most for profit existing associations. 

Rudy said quote .....Please tell me why people like JR West and myself should support a new organization that is in direct competition with USKMAF and NKMAA????........

I originally said this would be the reactions from the "establishment" because they have alot to lose namely; 

1. Money (dues & testing fee, seminar revenue, etc)

2. Power (not being the leading authorities in thier perspective roles or one one who approves rank single handedly etc.)

3. Prestige (the top dog, the grandmaster, etc)

I'm not saying any particular person is a greedy & power hunrgy, but I am strongly suggesting that business is business and they have a turf to protect a market share if you will. 

All this comes to prove what's suggested here is a threat to the "establishment" i.e. for profit associations (Hapkido Businesses) and I would speculate 99% of them are the same not because there bad people but because it's business. 

To me this shows our idea of a core minimum standard has validity and goes beyond the idea of business. In order to sell something you must have an angle, you must show how your product is better or different from the other guys. Some like Rudy (chocolate) some like JR (vanilla), so they both co-exist.

Our idea is all flavors therefore is for all equally. "All for one and one for all"


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## glad2bhere (Nov 21, 2004)

OK, as long as you folks are sorting out your differences I was wondering if I could run something by Rudy here real quick. 

On my website I have been organizing the Minimal Standards Project. If you get a chance I wish you would take a look. Specifically I would be interested in your feedback on the following. 

1.) Apart from what listed are there any other basic skills that you would feel good knowing that a person coming to one of your events has? 

2.) Are there either English and/or Korean terms that you feel it would help a participant to know and understand? 

3.) Are there technical terms you would recommend for the various techniques, concepts and drills posted on the site? 

Thanks in advance for the help. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Nov 21, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> What I'm hearing from Rudy and way he runs NKMAA is that he will accept a core minimum standard which is basically what I wanted to hear and I commend Rudy for his open mindedness and courage to rise above the establishment.
> 
> ...



Hello Stuart:
#1. My reaction was to the comment that Seniors were not doing anything (or something like that).

#2.  I run a non profit org.  So this is not about money for me.

#3.  The competition I speak of is about the same ideas and the time spent promoting these ideas, not because one charges money and the other does not.  IMHO, not charging anything is too idealistic, because you WILL incur expenses down the road.

#4.  Power means zip to me.  

Your idea is noble, and perhaps long overdue.  My comments were that it has been tried before.  Perhaps you will have more luck than I did, because much more water has gone under the bridge since I looked at this back in 1973 when I organized NKMAA along the same lines.  It was bad then, and it has gotten worse since.  Maybe folks are now ready???

Mind you.  I make no excuses for the fact that I depend on martial arts to earn a living, and I dare say that I earn every cent I make on it by giving fair value and good service.  This does NOT mean that I sell the store so to speak, and that seems to be what is thought of as soon as money is mentioned.  Not all of us are greedy, and not all of us rip people off.  I simply provide an alternative for folks who have been burned by some of the Korean martial art organizations (from all sides of the oceans).  

Some think Koreans are the only ones who rip people off.  I beg to differer, as it has been my experience that many folks are being ripped off by the middle man (their own Instructor who fails to pass the money to the org... often without the org. knowing about it in the first place).

I guess this leaves me to answer why I am lukewarm about supporting yet another organization.  To do so WILL take a lot of my time (of which I have little to spare at my age), and NOT giving my time only means I am not doing the job for you and the rest of the Hap Ki Do community.  So, the competition I talk about boils down to time spent on my own org or the new one you wish to make.  I hope I make myself a bit clearer now.


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## kwanjang (Nov 21, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> OK, as long as you folks are sorting out your differences I was wondering if I could run something by Rudy here real quick.
> 
> On my website I have been organizing the Minimal Standards Project. If you get a chance I wish you would take a look. Specifically I would be interested in your feedback on the following.
> 
> ...



Hello Bruce:
Would have been good for folks to get your web url.  Perhaps posting it would be a good idea, so others can also look it over.  Maybe sending you my "test sheet" will help you.  I have such sheets with MY minimum standards (and I emphasize MY, because I certify other folks who'se standards are perhaps not the same but still within the boundaries of being acceptable to most Hap Ki Do folks).  

Our KSB curriculum is laid out all the way to 8th dahn, and I had the good fortune to assist my GM in completing it before he passed away.   I am quite willing to send you the 1-3rd dahn sheets.  The higher rank sheets are something I'd rather keep to myself for the time being, as I am looking at making some changes to them.

In our system, we have only ONE ninth dahn, because it is based on the tradition of #3 being important in Korean culture, and 3x3 is the highest form of that importance.

All of this may be a moot point, as all of you need to address one important thing first.  What is acceptable to be called Hap Ki Do????  No sense even looking at something like my curriculum if I do not teach Hap Ki Do neh.


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## kwanjang (Nov 21, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> I was going to ignore your posts here, but the fact that you missed how well peolpe here have been interacting really struck me - I look at today when dealing with people, not yesterday, in the hope that things will always improve.  Thats all that set me off, and I frankly wasn't looking to or trying to be annoying to anyone - you or anyone else - I say this all in the friendliest of tones, but please, never represent that I would infer a comment.  I write without trying to do harm, but if I had something to say, and it could be said in proper context, I would say it.  I only question what is available on the internet for all to see, not closed information.



Hello Kevin:
Perhaps I am reading different things into these posts, as without the benefit of immediate feedback and interaction, it is easy to conclude the wrong things.  One of the drawbacks of a forum.

I did however go back to read some of the posts folks sent on this thread and some of the others that touched on this same idea, and I stand by my original assumption because that is the only way I can read these post.  I am not the only one who thinks you and some of the others are looking at exclusions, and some other people have mentioned it even before I did.

Seems to me that you have on a number of occasions said that, unless the root was from GM Choi, it was not Hap Ki Do.  We differ on that opinion; and, if your view on this is what will be accepted in this new organization, we will further divide this community.  Am I reading you wrong here???  If so, I apologize.

I guess the fundamental difference we have is this.  I believe that Hap Ki Do can be regognized by its motion, regardless of what certification is or was issued.  Something like if it walks like a duck and squacks like a duck... it must be a duck.  The way I read you is that one MUST have lineage to GM Choi before you could accept him or her as being a Hap KI Do practitioner.  Maybe I read this wrong, and I would be delighted it I were wrong.  With Hap Ki Do history and lineages in such a turmoil, it would be near impossible to document claims.  Heck, even GM Choi's own claims are undocumented to a large degree as I understand it. 

Don't get me wrong, I do not accept things as Hap Ki Do unless I can SEE that it is, and I for one HAVE declined (at considerable expense) some folks membership into NKMAA acting on my gut feeling on this.  Problem is that the next Hap Ki Do Master did not seem to have a problem with taking them in.  So, in the end it did not stop anyone, and due to human nature it will NEVER stop.  I accept that, and I continue to do my small part in trying to keep Hap Ki Do as good as I can.  Naivity has left me a long time ago, but my sense of honor is still with me.  I am not the best man, but I try my best always.


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## American HKD (Nov 21, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart:
> #1. My reaction was to the comment that Seniors were not doing anything (or something like that).
> 
> #2. I run a non profit org. So this is not about money for me.
> ...


Dear Rudy,

I wasn't singling you out or JR I was just trying to make points that are true in many cases. 

I don't think there's any thing wrong with making a living from teaching I paid my own way over the years and I charge my students for lessons.

I guess the last couple of years there have been some real low lifes and bad Association politics causing real problems for many good people. I would hate to see people go through some these things again forever and ever just with 
different names causing the problems.

I really dont want to run any Association myself, but I feel a strong group effort can make a big difference and show the world we cant be taken advantage of anymore.

If seniors like yourself won't back it and help I won't go it alone and 
I completely understand why you and other seniors I spoke to have reservations.


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## kwanjang (Nov 22, 2004)

Hello Stuart:
I commend you for trying, and I will do whatever I can to help you if this is an organization that is not exclusive to a select few.  I will send Bruce some of the info he might like to see, and we go from there.  I am not into politics in my own org, and I want to stay away from any org that conflicts with my belief of no politics.  I hope you understand.


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## American HKD (Nov 22, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart:
> I commend you for trying, and I will do whatever I can to help you if this is an organization that is not exclusive to a select few. I will send Bruce some of the info he might like to see, and we go from there. I am not into politics in my own org, and I want to stay away from any org that conflicts with my belief of no politics. I hope you understand.


Dear Rudy,

Thank you, my idea is for everyone even Kevin and Jung Ki Kwan Ha,Ha,! 

As I said before I don't want to run anything and I mean it! 

I just want to work on a core standard curriculum everyone can agree on.
I know some might say I want this tech and another guy says I want that but that's why I say a Core Minimum because each school can teach anything above the minimum.

So I thinking everyone should think in terms of (what's the bare minimum one should know to be considered a Hapkido 1st Dan)

No politics! 

Also can you send me the info as well?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 22, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

For starters I wonder if you would find time to take a look at the grappling string and see if there is some fundamental technique that you believe a practitioner would be expected to be familiar with that I may have overlooked? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Nov 22, 2004)

No problem Stuart:
I will get it off to you and Bruce as soon as I get a chance.  I looked over Bruce's site, and I saw that he has done quite a bit of work.  My stuff is mostly in Korean, and it only has the sets of techniques, strikes, kicks etc.  It is NOT a thing where every technique is explained.  They are the sheets I mark tests on.  Hope that is what you are looking for.  I need your address, as well as that of Bruce in order to send this stuff out.


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## Skitzo (Nov 22, 2004)

This is a really interesting discussion on standards and testing....it falls into a problem I'm having right now.   I've trained in TKD, Karate, Ju-jitsu and Aikido.... nothing seemed to "fit" until I tried Hapkido.  So I moved to South Korea for a couple years and trained - I earned my second degree and returned to Ontario.

Since I've returned (6 years now) I've been training/teaching a mixture of Karate, TKD and Hapkido. However, I'd rather concentrate on Hapkido. The Karate school which I teach at is really open to "new" styles so they've given me a Friday slot in the schedule.

So....now, I want a "standarized" Hapkido prg where I can take my students to other clubs and everything will be similar. I'm getting really frustrated. There are a bunch of TKD schools which teach a few wrist locks and call it Hapkido. When I was living in Korea, my gym had each move for each level on posters on the wall.... I should have copied it out. My problem is I earned my second degree years ago - so I know all kind of locks/falls/punches kicks and throws etc. however, I don't know for which level (belt) each one goes with. Would anyone happen to have the requirements for each belt written down somewhere? 

I did a six belt system - but I need the official testing requirments for each level.  

Can anyone help?  douglasthompson@cogeco.ca


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## glad2bhere (Nov 22, 2004)

Dear Skitzo: 

The WHF uses a 10-guep ranking system employing the Confucian Model for teaching. When I started teaching I had reorganized the same WHF material into a progressive Academic system. I share this because the curriculum is published on my website for everyone to see and use. I use four ranks--- white, yellow, blue and brown. I have no idea if any of this will be of help but if it gets you started towards organizing your curriculum it will have been put to good use, yes? Give it a try. Its not like there is a charge.  If you have any questions you know where to find me. ;-)

www.midwesthapkido.com

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 23, 2004)

Skitzo said:
			
		

> This is a really interesting discussion on standards and testing....it falls into a problem I'm having right now. I've trained in TKD, Karate, Ju-jitsu and Aikido.... nothing seemed to "fit" until I tried Hapkido. So I moved to South Korea for a couple years and trained - I earned my second degree and returned to Ontario.
> 
> Since I've returned (6 years now) I've been training/teaching a mixture of Karate, TKD and Hapkido. However, I'd rather concentrate on Hapkido. The Karate school which I teach at is really open to "new" styles so they've given me a Friday slot in the schedule.
> 
> ...


Visit my website HAPKIDO.CN and click on pictures/forms
There on bottom of page you will see Hapkido requirements,
also picture animation files
my program has high success and student retention. If you wish I can supply you with a complete BBFC Hapkido program by request and agreedment -email me at masterlugo@blackbeltfitnesscenter.com


regards
Lugo


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## Skitzo (Nov 27, 2004)

Thanks guys!!!  That's great.  Your programs are different from mine... but nothing extreme.  I've found belt requirements for about 3 schools now.  What I hope to do is take the most common elements of all three which should create a fairly standard system.  

The big difference I'm seeing now is the belt systems... Mine is a 6 belt system...others are 4... and others are WAY more.  Now, here's the problem I'm having with this.  I've talked to a few schools that have THREE stripes per belt (others have 2).   If one is teaching kids, would parents not get annoyed at the cost of testing 2-3 times for each belt?

Hapki!


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## glad2bhere (Nov 27, 2004)

I'm outa my depth on that question. I know that my teacher uses a 10-guep system but I left that behind quite a while ago. For me its one rank-one test. 
I have four guep ranks and that means 4 tests over 5 years to make Cho-dan.  Then again, I don't teach to support myself so others may have a different view of testing. FWIW. 

BTW: To: Skitzo

It may be worthwhile to connect with someone who can sorta peer over your shoulders while you do your work. I am probably a bit too traditional for most peoples' tastes but there are a number of very progressive folks in the Hapkido community. I am not talking about subsuming under an organization. Rather I am recommending having a kind of mentor to bump your ideas up against as you organize your curriculum. Its the old "two heads are better than" thing, yes? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Skitzo (Nov 28, 2004)

I think you hit the nail on the head with that last statement.  The gym I volunteer at is one in which the owner does not support himself with.  I've heard it said that for blackbelts, "the back door of the Dojo is always bigger than the front".  In my own experience this is true.  When I trained in Korea, as soon as you earned your first degree, you stopped paying gym fees.  You are now part of that family - so it's your job to teach some classes and help promote the school in the community.  You also represent that school at tournaments - which is why all the uniforms have the school branding on them.

However, when I returned, I was teaching at one school 3 times a week AND paying gym fees AND the owner wanted me to do all kinds of extra work AND I had to wear HIS colours AND I was responsible for all the kids..... for all this I didn't get taught a thing.  

The school I am presently at is run by a man who makes his $$ from the computer.  So he set up the gym for his sons to train at.  Then a few blackbelts wandered in from other schools and he said: "Cool, come on in; train here as much as you like as often as you want.  Don't pay me, just teach one class a week - AND here's a key to the gym"  So, now we have blackbelts from various styles (the primary style is Karate) and it's all based on mutual respect for the particular style.  We're getting all kinds of students now - we even had to knock down a wall last weekend to make room. 

P.S. -> I think everyone should check out the Informative site Master Lugo has set up:  http://www.midwesthapkido.com/  He uses a 4 belt system before black.

I would love to see other people's programs.


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## Skitzo (Nov 28, 2004)

Bruce,

Yep... I agree with you.  I would love to have some assistance with this program I am developing.  My style is also very traditional and I'm noticing many people prefer the "Combat Hapkido" - Unfortunatley, I don't have anyone to look over my shoulder.  So, at this point, I hope to establish a small program, not grade for belts or certificates (I'm only starting out a Friday night self defence class) - then once I start the system up, see what the interest is.  If there is significant interest I will teach them the most standarized program I can (which is what I'm presently researching) THEN, I will attempt to affialiate myself to other schools or organizations (not leave my school, just share techniques and compete)

Am I on the right track?


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## Kumbajah (Nov 28, 2004)

This is Bruce's work and site, not master Lugo's.

"P.S. -> I think everyone should check out the Informative site Master Lugo has set up: http://www.midwesthapkido.com/ He uses a 4 belt system before black."


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## Black Belt FC (Nov 28, 2004)

Corrections I use six belt before black, will post requirements for other belts shortly on site.

www.HAPKIDO.CN

Lugo


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## Paul B (Nov 28, 2004)

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to say Kudos to Bruce for putting the Minimal Standards up on his website...Good job!! Good explanations,too!


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## glad2bhere (Nov 28, 2004)

Dear Skitzo: 

"......If there is significant interest I will teach them the most standarized program I can (which is what I'm presently researching) THEN, I will attempt to affialiate myself to other schools or organizations (not leave my school, just share techniques and compete)

Am I on the right track?......" 

I have to give you a "qualified Yes". The reason I say that is that what is more important than what you teach is HOW you teach it. Many of the actual differences in the Hapkido arts have very little to do with differences in execution of a technique. Most techniques are pretty similar in this respect. However, what you will find is that though a technique is almost done indentical among various Hapkido arts, different teachers, kwans and organizations place different emphasis on different landmarks, goals and purposes. Even in related practices there are subtle variations. For instance, I teach traditional YMK Hapkido. The art I teach proceeds from GM Myung and the WHF as the WHF evolved out of the original kwan. That said I tend to place more emphasis on Hapkido as a Mu-do (martial way) than does GM Myung though he still has that emphasis to a lesser degree. KSW and HRD also teach Hapkido arts as a Mu-Do but place different weights on different methods and weapons. 

My suggestion about the mentor was less about the technical approach than organizing the teaching and learning priorities you have for your students. Questions like, "if my student is successful in their training what will they look/act like?" are the sorts of questions this raises. Are weapons as important, less important, more important than empty hand? What teaching approach are you most comfortable with? Will you have media to fall back on, or do you want to use forms to aid in understanding and comprehension? If you don't want media OR forms, what method will you use to help the student understand and retain material in an organized fashion? Remember the old English class writing thing---- "who", "what", "where", "when" "how" and "why"? Same thing in teaching a martial art.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Nov 28, 2004)

Dear Paul: 

Thanks for the kudo-s. All the same I am getting feedback that the descriptions are somewhat difficult to understand. If folks want to rewrite, or suggest editing for the descriptions such that they might be a little more user-friendly please don't hesitate. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## dosandojang (Nov 28, 2004)

Great Job Sa Bom Nim Bruce!


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## iron_ox (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello all,

Not trying to nit pick here, but why Bruce have you drawn information from Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do?  They are not Hapkido - not because you and I say, but because THEY say.  By establishing a minimal standard with organizations that are NOT at all Hapkido, do you not feel that you muddy the water and create an even more generic term for "Hapkido"?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 28, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

Actually both Kuk Sul Won and Hwa Rang Do originally started their existence as Kuk Sool Hapkido and Hwa Rang Hapkido respectively. They are takes on Chois' material (among others) just like Ji's material, Moo Woong Kim and others. I don't know that I would cut them out of the picture any more than I would cut any other practitioner out of the picture. Now, if you want to take a more exclusive tack with the Standards Institute that you spoke of perhaps it might make sense. However, for the purposes of the Minimal Standard, if HRD, KSW, ICHF, Ji, Kim and the Hapkido kid down the street use, say, a Front Snap Kick, then I think it is appropriate to use "skill with a FSK" as a way of determining if a person wanting to participate safely and effectively in a Hapkido event, or discussion, might be able to do so. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 28, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Kevin:
> 
> Actually both Kuk Sul Won and Hwa Rang Do originally started their existence as Kuk Sool Hapkido and Hwa Rang Hapkido respectively. They are takes on Chois' material (among others) just like Ji's material, Moo Woong Kim and others.



Hello all,

Bruce, again, I do understand that, but these organizations now state rather emphatically that they are not Hapkido.  So would it make more sense to draw from Hapkido organziations and if someone from these groups wanted to join, they could see you standard as a purely Hapkido one?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 28, 2004)

I am afraid we are comparing very different approaches. The things you are speaking of proceed from very commercial and politically-charged positions. I guarentee that Lee will never admit that a significant portion of his material relates to Chois', and I am quite sure the same can be said about Seo and his brother. That is not the point of the minimal standard. I'm having a hard time believing that after having stated so many times, on so many strings what I am working to accomplish you are still working to put a political spin on things. If you want to emphasize the differences among the various strains and practitioners of the Hapkido arts noone is saying that you can't. For my part I simply do not see the point in it when we can go farther by stressing our similarities. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 28, 2004)

OK, just wanted clarification.


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## Mithios (Nov 28, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> For my part I simply do not see the point in it when we can go farther by stressing our similarities. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


             Mr. Sim's, Are you talking about a study group approach(kwan?), where A group of people get together and exchange ideas, techniques, etc. Without worrying about rank or being in charge? I think that is what you are saying, But i don't think everyone is on the same page! I for one, am all for that sort of approach. It would be a nice change from most of the organizational crap i see today! A person could be a member of an org. for rank, etc. And still be a part of the study group, correct, or no ???    Mithios


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## Skitzo (Nov 28, 2004)

sorry if I mixed up Bruces' site with Master Lugo's or Master Lugo's with Master Bruces.... too much reading - my eyes hurt ;-)

All this talk about schools of thought and technique....I just returned from from a 6 hour seminar with Master Christopher Diliberto (7th Dan) under the Kenshi Kai of Okinawa in Bujutuse... REALLY advanced and actually hard to absorb - however, for a style of Karate which originated on Okinawa hundreds of years ago - I saw a lot of similarities in the Hapkido school.  (WHA)

I think with all this debate on standards, and programs and belt requirements don't you think the various Hapkido Associations and Federations could get together on this?  

I'm no historian...all I know is what I was taught under the WHA in Korea... the American system seems to be radically different (ie. I rarely threw a roundhouse kick before I returned to Canada - also, I NEVER threw a kick above the waist. - never mind which techniques/locks fall under which belt level (and even how many belt levels are being used at various schools).

Doug


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## Skitzo (Nov 28, 2004)

Has anyone ever looked at these tapes?

http://www.bongsoohanhapkido.com/videos.htm

It's not as if I actually have over $400.00 to spend on videos (I'd rather have DVD's anyhow) but perhaps this could be an avenue....

Speaking of DVD's - I do have some stuff I recorded and converted to DVD - anyone want to trade?

e-mail me at:

douglasthompson@cogeco.ca


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## ajs1976 (Nov 28, 2004)

I don't know how good the videos are, but check out www.budovideos.com for a better price.  About $200 for the set.  http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/home.php?cat=254&page=3

They seem to regularly sell them on ebay.


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## kwanjang (Nov 28, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Bruce, again, I do understand that, but these organizations now state rather emphatically that they are not Hapkido.  So would it make more sense to draw from Hapkido organziations and if someone from these groups wanted to join, they could see you standard as a purely Hapkido one?



Hello Kevin:
Does that mean "if" YOUR former Instructor now says he teaches something other than Hap Ki Do, all of a sudden you never practised Hap Ki DO????


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Kevin:
> Does that mean "if" YOUR former Instructor now says he teaches something other than Hap Ki Do, all of a sudden you never practised Hap Ki DO????


Kevin,

I think what Rudy's means is no matter what someone call the Art it's still the same. "A rose by any othwr name" In therory he's right and I agree.

However will anyone give you or I a 4th or 5th dan in Kuk Sool or Hwrang do I don't think so, that's what makes us separate no matter who says it's the same.

So the people who seperate themselves be it us or them are at some kind of fault so to speak.

The problem with that type of thinking is there should'nt be any styles just Martial Arts and one rank for everyone.


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## The Prof (Nov 29, 2004)

Greetings,

I find it very sad that so many Martial Artists have gone the route of self grading. It has taken the honor away from what was once considered "The Highly Revered and Most Coveted Black Belt."

I see so many "Masters" who are in their twenties. These kids have not even mastered life yet, how can they possibly master a martial art? 

No matter how you slice it, the right way is the best way. Stick it out with your Sensei, accumulate many years of* continued *hard training. Build a respectable reputation not only within, but outside your dojo and community.

Most importantly, stay away from the fakers and organizations that are formed for the purpose of legitimizing fraudulent rank and grade. In other words, "resist temptation." Honor and Integrity should never be compromized.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 29, 2004)

Dear Mithios: 

"......Mr. Sim's, Are you talking about a study group approach(kwan?), where A group of people get together and exchange ideas, techniques, etc. Without worrying about rank or being in charge? I think that is what you are saying, But i don't think everyone is on the same page! I for one, am all for that sort of approach. It would be a nice change from most of the organizational crap i see today! A person could be a member of an org. for rank, etc. And still be a part of the study group, correct, or no ???........" 

You are on the right track, but I need to tweak something here so that people don't develop a misunderstanding. 

I belong to the Yon Mu Kwan, and as a traditionalist I believe in the "kwan" or "study group" model. GM Myung is the mentor for the Yon Mu Kwan and as such, if I had questions or needed guidance he is the person to whom I would turn.  Having said that, I can say, "yes" to your question. However, participating in such an activity would not mean that a person was automatically a member of the Yon Mu Kwan. It doesn't work like that. I just want to make sure that while I am advocating a "kwan" or "study group" approach that it does not bespeak membership of some established group. A study group such as one that might get together would simply be the sort of experience you are characterizing with exchanges, comparisons and the like. 
For instance, I could see people getting together to address a question such as "what ground-fighting techniques might reasonably be expected for a Hapkido practitioner to know". In the YMK Hapkido we do have ground-fighting techniques but nothing like say BJJ. Since the Minimal Standards project is not beholding to a particular Hapkido art or style there is no reason a person could not discuss or make a case for including material that might help make Hapkido ground-fighting safer or better trained, yes? Compare to this an event where things are conducted under the Yon Mu Kwan and one of the first strictures would be to work within the guidelines of that kwan ("Developement", "Training", "Integrity", "Service"). Similar but not identical. Just wanted to make sure everyone was clear on the difference.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

The Prof said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> I find it very sad that so many Martial Artists have gone the route of self grading. It has taken the honor away from what was once considered "The Highly Revered and Most Coveted Black Belt."
> 
> ...


Dear Prof,

Many of the founders of Korean Arts post WW2 were in thier twenties when they established well known systems of today while still in there Twenties.

Even in this country there was Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, James Mitose, and many others FWIW.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 29, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

".......Many of the founders of Korean Arts post WW2 were in thier twenties when they established well known systems of today FWIW....." 

I think I appreciate what you are saying, but we must also consider how much the KMA has suffered do to the immaturity and inexperience these folks had when they started their respective efforts. IMVHO had these folks been in their, say, 40-s and developed under the guidance of a senior I think the result would have been much different. As it is, we live in a KMA community in which there are many artificial divisions, some for no more reason that the originator was LOOKING for a way to make himself different from his peers. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Mithios:
> 
> "......Mr. Sim's, Are you talking about a study group approach(kwan?), where A group of people get together and exchange ideas, techniques, etc. Without worrying about rank or being in charge? I think that is what you are saying, But i don't think everyone is on the same page! I for one, am all for that sort of approach. It would be a nice change from most of the organizational crap i see today! A person could be a member of an org. for rank, etc. And still be a part of the study group, correct, or no ???........"
> 
> ...


Ground techniques are a good idea and I have some background in Bjj etc.

There are many, many techniques from the ground and most tradtional HKD people wont be able to discuss this subject properly as to what basics should be learned.

Also I can tell you the Bjj stuff does'nt really follow the premise of HKD theory and would seem as though it's from another system.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 29, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

".....Many of the founders of Korean Arts post WW2 were in thier twenties when they established well known systems of today FWIW....." 

Yes, and I, for one, would want to be careful about mixng arts. All the same, even with the limited number of grounded techniques that we have, if I were to find some teaching tips, safety considerations and points of view to consider that would make the teaching/learning more effective I could see using the resource. After all there are little tips I use from a variety of MA to help teach my Hapkido better and I have ever been amazed at how reluctant Hapkido people are to gether and even share THIS information. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Hello Kevin:
> Does that mean "if" YOUR former Instructor now says he teaches something other than Hap Ki Do, all of a sudden you never practised Hap Ki DO????




Hello all,

First, I NEVER said anything, the Hwarangdo and Kuksoolwon organizations have published for twenty years that they are not Hapkido...and I think Rudy that you are looking at this TOTALLY backwards - if your instructor, for more than twenty years was the second in command of an organization that said they do not teach Hapkido, then for whatever reason left that organization, do they _suddenly_ teach Hapkido?  By their own published reports dating in my possession from 1985, *they* say NO.


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Kevin,
> 
> I think what Rudy's means is no matter what someone call the Art it's still the same. "A rose by any othwr name" In therory he's right and I agree.
> 
> ...



Hello Stuart,

Sorry, I will have to disagree.  An art with throws that purports to be Hapkido may not be Hapkido - I don't go for the "rose" theory BECAUSE these organizations themselves SAY they are not Hapkido.

Kuksoolwon and Hwarrangdo claim to be separate, great for them, that is their right to do so, but don't come back after twenty years and say, "well, actually we are Hapkido, and high ranking at that..." - I just don't buy that line - they created the line of BS, now they can stay caught in it.

I feel that there is no fault here, they wanted to be separate, made the claim to be not Hapkido long ago, and should be happy that we are now all in agreeance with them - they are not Hapkido.  This is not my opinion, but just restateing THEIR party line, and happy to help them out.


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## Kumbajah (Nov 29, 2004)

My take on guide for ground fighting in Hapkido - All though not stressed it is consistent with Hapkido principles. All the standing locks work just as well on the ground. An arm bar works on the same principle no matter what  part of the body you use to bar the arm (ie forearm, armpit, belly, knee, thigh etc. You are still using the opponents momentum and strength against him. No matter what sort of base your opponent has there is a way to unbalance him and use it to your advantage. I think that some categories to be addressed - locks (shoulder, elbow, wrist, finger, knee/leg, neck, and back/spine.) Chokes ( naked, corticoid, smother ), Pins (whole body, arm, leg, combination) and pressure points/strikes. The entry and positioning would be the x factor. How you get from point x to one of the aforementioned categories or out of them. Other aspects although not hapkido per say but found in all ground fighting - bridging and shrimping but they are consistent with unbalancing principles of Hapkido.  

Brian


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> My take on guide for ground fighting in Hapkido - All though not stressed it is consistent with Hapkido principles. All the standing locks work just as well on the ground. An arm bar works on the same principle no matter what part of the body you use to bar the arm (ie forearm, armpit, belly, knee, thigh etc. You are still using the opponents momentum and strength against him. No matter what sort of base your opponent has there is a way to unbalance him and use it to your advantage. I think that some categories to be addressed - locks (shoulder, elbow, wrist, finger, knee/leg, neck, and back/spine.) Chokes ( naked, corticoid, smother ), Pins (whole body, arm, leg, combination) and pressure points/strikes. The entry and positioning would be the x factor. How you get from point x to one of the aforementioned categories or out of them. Other aspects although not hapkido per say but found in all ground fighting - bridging and shrimping but they are consistent with unbalancing principles of Hapkido.
> 
> Brian


Dear Brian,

You beat me to it. I was going to respond to Bruce saying a very similar thing.

In Hapkido we have the techniques. What many don't have is the expirience to put it to practical use. There are a few Samuri Ryu that do know how to fight from the ground and it looks nothing like Judo or BJJ and in fact there doing what we should be doing.

We need progressive instructors to reseach and teach how to use our techniques on the ground properly mainly positioning from place to place on the ground. I for one am working on it the stuff.


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart,
> 
> Sorry, I will have to disagree. An art with throws that purports to be Hapkido may not be Hapkido - I don't go for the "rose" theory BECAUSE these organizations themselves SAY they are not Hapkido.
> 
> ...


Kev,

You misunderstood my comment I agree with you, at the same time I was trying to explain Rudy's point to you.


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## Mithios (Nov 29, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Mithios:
> 
> You are on the right track, but I need to tweak something here so that people don't develop a misunderstanding.
> 
> ...


 Ahhhh, Thank you for the clarification. Sound's good to me!


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## kwanjang (Nov 29, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Kevin,
> 
> I think what Rudy's means is no matter what someone call the Art it's still the same. "A rose by any othwr name" In therory he's right and I agree....



Stuart:
That is precisely what I mean.  Some folks change names and claim or disclaim allegiances because it furthers their own cause, and those who faithfully worked their butts off have no say in the matter whatsoever.

GM Suh (not Seo) sent me certificates from Korea back in the sixties that clearly state Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do, and recent visits to Korea confirm that there are lots of people still practising that art.  

Later, in Marc Tedeschi's book, GM Suh claims there never WAS such an organization.  Dr. Kimm made references to the same organization (of which he was a major player); however, for whatever reason, it now seems to suit GM Suh's cause more to deny this org. ever existed.  Unfortunately for him, there is just too much contradictory evidence to support his latest claims... and that is the way it is with Korean martial art history 

Self-serving statements that have little to do with truth leave false impressions to those who do not know the whole story.  Good reason not to make hasty decisions.


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## kwanjang (Nov 29, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello Stuart,
> 
> ...Kuksoolwon and Hwarrangdo claim to be separate, great for them, that is their right to do so, but don't come back after twenty years and say, "well, actually we are Hapkido, and high ranking at that..." - I just don't buy that line - they created the line of BS, now they can stay caught in it.
> 
> I feel that there is no fault here, they wanted to be separate, made the claim to be not Hapkido long ago, and should be happy that we are now all in agreeance with them - they are not Hapkido.  This is not my opinion, but just restateing THEIR party line, and happy to help them out.



Kevin.  What you are saying is that the top dogs change their stories.  That does not mean that the litter EVER changed what they learned and continue to teach.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 29, 2004)

Sorry, Kevin, I don't agree. "They" might be folks like Seo, and Lee and some other people but most of the people who practice Hapkido arts know they practice Hapkido arts and they don't kid themselves about it. Nor, at this time in my life, do I care to play a serious game of "GotCha". I don't think there is anyone in the community who doesn't know that people pumped up a lot of crap to keep money coming this way or that way. Nice thing about mistakes is that the next generation doesn't have to perpetuate them. 

If you step away from the politics there are many people who practice TANG SOO DO, eclectic Hapkido, ICHF, mixes of TKD and HKD, BJJ and HKD, "Modern Hapkido", "traditional Hapkido", etc., etc. What are you going to do--- subject them to your judgement before you decide if they are worthy of investment of time and energy? You seem to be working awfully hard at delineating clear, sharp differences among people whose only mistake was that they didn't all have the same teacher? 

If somebody wants to get on the mat and workout I think thats great. If they can help me do a technique better than how I have been doing it, better yet! And if I can reciprocate thats even better! But this whole idea of keeping the Hapkido community at each others throats just so someone can have some sort of bragging rights to exclusivity is really pretty old, ya know? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Nov 29, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ... this whole idea of keeping the Hapkido community at each others throats just so someone can have some sort of bragging rights to exclusivity is really pretty old, ya know?
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce



Bruce and Stuart:
This is precisely what I had hoped to convey, but somehow my posts did not come out as clear on this issue.  Thanks for doing a better job on this Bruce, as I truly believe that NOTHING is served if we keep up the same old same old.  

It is time to move ahead, and the real issue is what people actually do on the mat.  If it looks like Hap Ki Do, it IS Hap Ki Do, and there are enough good people who CAN see (on the mat) that a Rose by a different name is still a Rose (no matter what the leaders of their former group now call it).

BTW, I am not fighting to be accepted by anyone here.  I have paid my dues, and there are enough good Hap Ki Do people who know who I am and what I teach.  My sole aim here is to help Stuart get past some of the hurdles that may make his idea sink before it ever floats.  Bruce just wrote a better post to clarify and point out the problems I saw all along.


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Self-serving statements that have little to do with truth leave false impressions to those who do not know the whole story.  Good reason not to make hasty decisions.




Suh, Seo, Lee have had 20 years and LOTS of press to explain why they are not Hapkido - sorry, but I don't see how we can have it both ways...


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Kevin.  What you are saying is that the top dogs change their stories.  That does not mean that the litter EVER changed what they learned and continue to teach.




Change their stories?  Don't know anything about that -  Seo claimed from at least 1985 to be the head of ALL Korean Martial Arts except TaeKwonDo via the KiDo Assn. - then, left there and suddenly starts Assn. dedicated to Hapkido when all primary gradings came from brother who is not Hapkido - doesn't sound like a story change, more like a paradigm shift.


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## kwanjang (Nov 29, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Suh, Seo, Lee have had 20 years and LOTS of press to explain why they are not Hapkido - sorry, but I don't see how we can have it both ways...



I know that YOU can't see how their claims never made a change to what I learned and teach, and I can live with that believe it or not 

What Stuart et all have to wrestle with is whether or not they agree with you.  If they do, it makes it a lot easier for folks sitting on the sidelines to not waste a lot of their time working on something that excludes them.  

Having this dilemma in the open helps all of us, and that is why I continue to ask these questions.  I think it is only fair that the organizers make their position on this abundantly clear rigth now.


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> I know that YOU can't see how their claims never made a change to what I learned and teach, and I can live with that believe it or not
> 
> What Stuart et all have to wrestle with is whether or not they agree with you. If they do, it makes it a lot easier for folks sitting on the sidelines to not waste a lot of their time working on something that excludes them.
> 
> Having this dilemma in the open helps all of us, and that is why I continue to ask these questions. I think it is only fair that the organizers make their position on this abundantly clear rigth now.


Rudy,

Thanks I understand.


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Sorry, Kevin, I don't agree. "They" might be folks like Seo, and Lee and some other people but most of the people who practice Hapkido arts know they practice Hapkido arts and they don't kid themselves about it.
> 
> *KID themselves?  They don't want to be Hapkido, THEY say so, so why do yoiu continue to lump them in with real Hapkido?*
> 
> ...



As always, I do respect everyones opinion, but just don't agree with it.


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> I know that YOU can't see how their claims never made a change to what I learned and teach, and I can live with that believe it or not
> 
> What Stuart et all have to wrestle with is whether or not they agree with you.  If they do, it makes it a lot easier for folks sitting on the sidelines to not waste a lot of their time working on something that excludes them.
> 
> Having this dilemma in the open helps all of us, and that is why I continue to ask these questions.  I think it is only fair that the organizers make their position on this abundantly clear rigth now.




Sorry Rudy, but you keep focusing in on what you learned and teach, my issues are not directed at you, but the inclusion of technical information from groups that do not want to be considered Hapkido.  Technical aspects aside, and they may indeed be quite close, these groups do not want to be considered Hapkido - that has been my only concern - I still don't think I have ever personally questioned either your training or ability.  Not my style.


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## kwanjang (Nov 29, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Sorry Rudy, but you keep focusing in on what you learned and teach, my issues are not directed at you, but the inclusion of technical information from groups that do not want to be considered Hapkido.  Technical aspects aside, and they may indeed be quite close, these groups do not want to be considered Hapkido - that has been my only concern - I still don't think I have ever personally questioned either your training or ability.  Not my style.



Sorry Kevin, but if we follow YOUR logic, you are not teaching Hap Ki Do, you are teaching Yawara, and only the JI people should be included.  I just don't follow your reasoning here.


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

Hello all,

Again, not trying to make this a personal battle here. Not sure why you are.  Hapkido is the art of Choi, Yong Sul.  The name, and name alone, Ji claims is something he made up, until the death of Choi, then the claims became more grandeous.  Several older Korean master dispute that the then 13-14 year old did this.  Don't really care, Choi called his art Hapkido.  This is evident on the certificates that he signed, where the art was clearly called Hapkido.     

Again, what I am saying is that the other groups are saying they are not Hapkido.  Specifically, that is Kuksoolwan and Hwarangdo (for starters) - this was not a nomenclature issue - they say they are not Hapkido - they claim to have no real roots with Choi - until recently, the tune appears to change.

So, my logic is quite clear - and the question is still valid - why include groups that do not want to be called Hapkido - as is their own right - they broke away, left, or were never affiliated, they have throws, locks and weapons, they have their own philosophy, and their own agenda.  They are not Hapkido because they say they are not.


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## iron_ox (Nov 29, 2004)

Hello all,

Rudy, et all, this is not a personal war here.  

Sorry I brought up the topic at all.  

Include *everyone*, the more the merrier.  Lets all start calling every KMA that is not TaeKwonDo, Hapkido. Don't worry about rank or lineage. It might be advantageous to decide who will be considered senior by one of two methods:  1. Get on the mat and have a knock down drag out fight - but watch it here, the 20 year olds have pretty good stamina and might upset the apple cart if they win (maybe not, we might then get Nintendo Hapkido) or 2. Maybe a bake off, best pies are the seniors... 

Hey, there are guys in Iowa (I think) that have created a new KMA from Taebo and WWE Wrestling - include them to - eventually some group will legitimize them.

If the goal here is to create a mismash of all things that anyone has ever created, boil it down to a minimum, then call it a standard, then that goal shall soon be reached.  

Pandering to the Lowest Common Denominator is an American custom.  Instead of defining here what Hapkido really is, this looks like an attempt to placate all those who are not Hapkido by their own creation and admission, and in some ill-conceived attempt at being overly PC, any version of any KMA is included - and called Hapkido.

I very respectfully admire the work you are doing, but do not agree with it.  Again, I also respect all those courageous enough to post an opinion here - often it takes guts but the conversation generally hasd great value.  I will continue the more mundane issues of lineage and rank as issued by Hapkido's founder, Choi, Yong Sul, but will continue to read on in interest.


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## kwanjang (Nov 29, 2004)

Kevin:  In that case why don't you call the art you teach (a form of) Jiu Jitsu.  THAT is the root of DJN Choi's art, and HE called it something else when he returned to Korea.  YOU are in the same boat I am in, because the founder of your art did the same thing GM Suh did (as did so many others).

Not making this personal either, because I could give a hoot one way or the other.  Just not going to buy into your philosophy that's all, and I want to give this audience the benefit of other views on this subject  

In any case, I am not going to waste more of my time on this issue here, as I think the folks on this forum have had a chance to see two (or more) sides of it, and they can make up their own minds.  I am not one to try and push my ideas onto them, and all I am interested in is giving Stuart a chance to see where this sort of thinking might take him and his idea.


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> Hello all,
> 
> Again, not trying to make this a personal battle here. Not sure why you are. Hapkido is the art of Choi, Yong Sul. The name, and name alone, Ji claims is something he made up, until the death of Choi, then the claims became more grandeous. Several older Korean master dispute that the then 13-14 year old did this. Don't really care, Choi called his art Hapkido. This is evident on the certificates that he signed, where the art was clearly called Hapkido.
> 
> ...


Kevin,

In a sense I agree with you that we're not trying to exlude anyone they're doing ot themselves.

However thier original roots were in Hapkido and Rudy was involved back then and still relates to KukSool & Hwrang Do as Hapkido he maybe one of only a few who sees it that way. 
We're from a later generation so we see a clearer division in these systems and Hapkido.

Look at He Young Kim (Our Time) he created Han Mu Do which I would really call reorganized Hapkido. I have his book and a copy of a Han Mu Do tape to 1st dan and it's exactly the same tech for tech. 

Why re-shuffe the deck and call the same thing a different name? 
For what purpose? 

Or is it simply to be independant like a cabinet maker who's apprentice goes and opens his own shop after he's has the expertise to make a good peice of furniture?


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## dosandojang (Nov 29, 2004)

WHY did the Founders of Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, Han Mu Do, etc., CHANGE the name of what they REALLY learned in the FIRST place (HAP KI DO)?????? The HONEST answer?


----------



## Disco (Nov 29, 2004)

An old saying:

"A tree is never so foolish as to have it's branches fighting amoungst themselves"....


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## American HKD (Nov 29, 2004)

Check out this link it shows connections to Hapkido, KukSool, Hwrand do.

ttp://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html

Very interesting


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## Paul B (Nov 29, 2004)

That link didn't work,Stuart...but that's a good analogy about the carpenters' apprentice.

I would just like to say that I agree that the Hapkido community could do nothing but benefit from any attempt at unity. It may not end up the way Stuart envisions,but any attempt at bringing Hapkidoin together is better than none.

People have always done what they have thought best at the time,and many ended up rueing their decisions,but hopefully we can look past what others have done,and look forward to a time when Hapkidoin can communicate with each other about Hapkido,in terms everyone knows and understands.

Like it or not gentleman,us lower yudanja are the future of Hapkido,and I for one am sick and tired of seeing my parents and uncles squabble about "family matters",when it can be so easily resolved to simply admit we're family. Even the "uncle" nobody talks about is still family,and the family doesn't disown the children of that uncle,even if they disown the uncle. Change will come to Hapkido,just for the simple fact that my generation is more tolerant,and more willing to hash it out.There is a lot to be said for tradition,and respecting one's lineage,but it can't continue to stagnate,if it does...it dies. Good communication between Hapkidoin can do nothing but help Hapkido,be it technically or spritually.

That being said....I hope that nobody takes this personally,I just hope it makes you think about the future. Hapkido is bigger than the individual.


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## kwanjang (Nov 30, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> WHY did the Founders of Kuk Sool Won, Hwa Rang Do, Han Mu Do, etc., CHANGE the name of what they REALLY learned in the FIRST place (HAP KI DO)?????? The HONEST answer?



Really quite simple Dosandojang.
You simply can't go your own way by using the same old name for ANYTHING.  It just does not work to advertise for your competition, and in many cases you would violate trademark laws.


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## MDFJ (Nov 30, 2004)

I think there a great ideals presented here by those individuals who are seeking to better the Hapkido community..

The problem as I see it, is exactly who wants to be in the "Hapkido" community, it seems there are some who should be, but do not want to be, and others who want to be, but would not be considered to be because of their Choi/Ji/Other Lineage or lack of..   

I get the feeling that you could never have another organisation which would please everyone and have complete membership.

I think this has been mentioned before, but a "Hapkido Standards Council" without politics/certificates etc, just a one time *small * application fee to membership of the standards group... sounds like a great Idea, but would be difficult to have people agree on those standards..  

Even if you tell someone that it doesnt matter what affiliation / lineage etc you have, there will be people who would not want to join based on who else would be allowed to join if they do not believe anything other than their own style is true Hapkido.

Standards are the Quality of something, Quality does not mean good or best it simply means the consistent outcome of prescribed process, all Hamburger restaurants have a quality standard they work to, which produce a consistant quality of product, to the minimum agreed industry/market standard to call it a hamburger/beefburger - It has beef, bread and is hot & edible... etc

Wendy's may not like McDonalds, Burger King may not like Hungry Joe's, and we as customers would also have our favourites, but everyone can agree they produce beefburgers to a minimum quality standard..

The UK BSI has a quality stamp it applies to any product/company, Best or budget (subject to opinion) which can prove it meets minimum quality procedures and standards for what it is/produces.

Could the same be done for Hapkido...?

Not sure, I love the idea, but i think it would be Difficult.

Just my humble thoughts FWIW.

Repects and Regards to all.

Marc


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## American HKD (Nov 30, 2004)

Greetings,

Paul try again the link works.

http://www.hwarang.org/Contemporary.html

Very interesting assesment showing clearly that *Hapkido came first* and KukSool and Hwrang Do were fabricated by thier perspective founders making up who taught them and the phony history to back it up.

All can say is it's really Wild!!!!


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

".....Who is looking for bragging rights? Is it wrong to have a true understanding of the art that you train in and teach? I think not. ....." 

It is if that is not really what you are about. Its very apparent that nobody knows exactly what it was that Choi either learned or taught. To pretend that you somehow have stumbled on to the exclusive pure strain of Choi tradition makes your claims no different from many other people who also have made the same claims albeit based on different points of view. 

"..... why can't you just let them go? You can all go and train together if it suits you, that is a whole different issue - bring a few jujitsu guys for other throws, a few mantis guys for some cool strikes, maybe a BJJ guy or two for sport fighting, and have a great time on the mat training - that is whooly different and I think training with others can bring a fresh perspective to things....... " 

That is NOT what we are speaking of--- and YOU KNOW that is not what we are speaking of. It is unseemly for you to purposely misrepresent what you know not to be true just to further your position. For my part I don't let other people who are interested in the Hapkido arts "go" because that is not the way it works. The combative arts of Korea have been taught for centuries, called different things for centuries. Now, along you come and want to tease out one person and one tradition as though that is the whole package. Choi and Ji and a host of others may be renowned men, but they are still just individuals in a crowd of individuals going back generations. 

Nor do I care for you throwing the stupidity and meaness of past leaders up as the standard by which we are suppose to conduct ourselves today. I suppose I can understand the need for people who couldn't cut-it in Korea coming to America and selling round-eyes a bill-of-goods with evidence to the contrary. That was when we practitioners didn't know better. We are adults now and I, for one, don't buy the idea of anyone setting themselves up as the exclusive source of the Single Truth--- especially when its the same hurtful idealogy that has damaged the Hapkido community so badly in the past.  

And just so people hear it one more time------ 

what* I * am advocating are standards. *You* are the one who seems to be into requirements. Lets keep the two separate, shall we? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 30, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Kevin:
> 
> ".....Who is looking for bragging rights? Is it wrong to have a true understanding of the art that you train in and teach? I think not. ....."
> 
> ...



I feel that it is fine to disagreee, but it is outrageous that over and over the term "MY" opinion has been used here.  Don't try to set me up as a fall guy for the fact that the very organizations that are being used as a Hapkido standard do not consider themselves Hapkido.  That is their opinion, their RIGHT, not my opinion. 

Now, you can have my opinion:  The fact that they are included at all in a standard of Hapkido is laughable - they were low ranking black belts and started their own thing - cool for them - they do not want to consider themselves Hapkido, and for all the press they paid for, I feel we should respect their wishes.  Now, when 20+ years later, a prominant member of one of these groups jumps ship, or was pushed, and decides to join the Hapkido bandwagon, I simply disagree.  

Lots of talk goes around about "don't be divisive" "let's just get along" - thats fine too.  I'm happy to train and talk to anyone, but when the discussion turns to what is Hapkido to say that claiming that Choi is the founder is somehow divisive smacks of an underlying agenda - to maintain control (however slight) to the notion that if it is true, lots of "ranked" individuals don't have the rank they claim...so financially, they could lose.  As long as the "generic" Hapkido definition is accepted, no one is in jeapardy. Some of the personal agendas here far outweigh the simple question I asked - hence the blustery reponses...

End rant.  Sorry, but a few of you here on this thread want to twist what is said.  Get on with your LCD standard of all KMA's, I wish you well, I'm letting this one go unless the few want to keep dragging me back.  Get on with the standards mission, when you prove to yourselves that Hapkido is generic, have a party - more the college type, lots of beer and stuff, not the wine and cheese "artsy" type - becasue there will be not art left to celebrate.


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## kwanjang (Nov 30, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Greetings,
> 
> Paul try again the link works.
> 
> ...



FWIW.  GM Suh always claimed to have been taught by his Grandfather.  In addition to that, he told me that he trained with various other martial artists for specific techniques.  I never heard him tell anyone that he trained with GM Choi; however, his brother AND the late GM Pak (my teacher) both trained with GM Choi. 

GM Suh also stated to me on a number of occasions that he (and several others) trained (as peer) with GM Ji, and he still considers GM Ji a good friend.  I have seen the two of them interact at some of the earlier Kuk Sool tournaments in San Francisco, and they certainly seemed to be friendly.

Bottom line is that we cannot be sure of ANYTHING that is being "sold" as the true history of Hap Ki Do.  There is not enough solid evidence to support the claims of any of the folks we discussed here.  All we have to go by is hearsay, and that is why I go back to "looking" at how individuals do their technique.  It will show up their background.

For example.  Having seen Bruce on the mat a number of times, I think he has an early background in an art other than Hap Ki Do just by the way he moves.  That does not mean he is not a serious Hap Ki Do practitioner now, it just feels to me that he began his journey in another place (or trained simultaneously in another art).  Without knowing your background, am I right Bruce????  If not, I'll throw my idea of looking at someone right out the window lol.  In any case... when I mentioned "looking", it has nothing to do with "testing" each other on the mat in combat as Kevin suggested.


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## kwanjang (Nov 30, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> ... Now, when 20+ years later, a prominant member of one of these groups jumps ship, or was pushed, and decides to join the Hapkido bandwagon, I simply disagree.



Kevin:
I assume you are talking about me here, and I must tell you that I NEVER changed what I learned, and I teach it as I learned it from my GM the late Pak In shyuk.  In fact, in my school we have the two as separate arts, and some of my students teach the Kuk Sool part.  I still teach only Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do (later called Kong Shin Bup by GM Pak due to trademark issues), because it is the only art I feel comfortable in. 

I joined Kuk Sool (WKSA) in 1989 to further investigate that part of my earlier certification.  GM Pak left WKSA (and so did I along with him) back in the mid-seventies when there was a major shake up in WKSA.  So, to reiterate what I have said all along... I never stopped training in the art that was then called Kuk Sool Hap Ki Do.  This was BEFORE the WKSA was started here in the US. 

If you feel that, because one of the teachers of my teacher changed names, I am NOT a Hap Ki Do practitioner... not a problem for me.  I just wonder what makes it different for you when it is abundantly clear that GM Choi did exactly the same thing when he switched from Daito Ryu to Yu Sool to Yawara etc. etc.  So what is it exactly that you teach???

As I said before, I fear that you and I will never see eye to eye on this, and that is OK.  Life is like that, and it would be pretty dull if it were not.  I actually admire your loyalty to what you believe in, very few people who are so dedicated.  Sort of reminds me of Carston and Hwa Rang Do  We have livened up this forum with some spirited posts, informed a boatload of people with some of our ideas on the subject, and perhaps we even helped Stuart and Bruce.  All of this without having a moderator jump on us.  We doing OK


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

Sorry, Kevin, this line of reasoning wont work anymore. 

.Where have I ever made such claims? This BS about MY OPINION and MY AGENDA is just smoke for what is really going on, which is the continued watering down of the style that DID not exist in Korea prior to Choi, Yong Sul. As far as a "pure strain" - I trained in the Choi material in the UK, never found it here in the US with those I trained with and found the same material with Choi's longest training student. So, when you keep saying "nobody" knows what Choi learned or taught, changed that to "some of us (you)" because I am confident and comfortable that is what I am learning - so stop this "Choi was and enigma that no-one understood...".

Whatever you personal experience is in the end there is nothing but your opinion to support your assertion. You trained in something in England. Somebody told you it was Chois material. It happens to resemble somebody elses material. So what? You never found what you are doing anywhere else in America--- So what. Its still just circumstantial. Chois material cant be watered down because noone has been able to identify that material in the original. Furthermore there is a growing body of anecdotal information indicating that Choi may have taught different things to different people! 

As far as whether other people want to come train, as long as I know they can handle training safely both for themselves and their partners what do I care where their experience is from. My own background is with GM Myung. Thats not going to change and I am not going to foist it on anybody as some exclusive truth. You are mixing the credo-s of leadership personalities with the needs of people who want to train. 


.Now an agenda FINALLY comes out. HAPKIDO started Feb. 21, 1948 - you are the only one here that believes it went back for generations - without a thread of evidence. By the inclusion of any KMA you can somehow push the agenda that Hapkido is generic - fine, that is what you want to do - just provide that name of any one man that trained people in these techniques before Choi - a real human. Tease out one person? This is sickening - YOUR entire Hapkido training experience is with people trained by Choi or one of his students - experience in arts without this lineage are not Hapkido. MY OPINION, please, here is conjucture of the highest order.

Hapkido is a word. Its a good word, but it is just a word--- a label. Choi  used it but adopted it from the shennanigans of his students. He also used others. Why dont you call what you do yawara?  Choi did. Why dont you call what you do Daito Ryu Aiki ju jutsu Choi did? How about Hapkiyusool or even hapkiyukwonsul. Choi did. He used all of these at one time or another.  

No, Im sorry Kevin but you are trying to be just a bit too clever with your argument. You want to walk through the Korean experience and cherry-pick what suits you. 

You want Choi as the originator of a Korean art, but the material he is best known for is not Korean. 

You want the exclusivity model associated with a Japanese tradition but without the responsibility to a Japanese authority. 

You want to practice only the material that was taught by Choi but are willing to view only you own particular teacher as the sole source of that materials authenticity. 

You want to acknowledge only that time period moving forward from a date in 1948 despite the fact that people were practicing DRAJJ in Korea during the occupation (See: Stanley Pranin).  

No, Im very sorry. This smacks of the same exclusivity that any of a number of people in the Hapkido community have thrown up before. The official line is always the same. What I teach is authentic and what everyone else teaches is not.  This is the same old commercial ploy. Come to my store because only I have the genuine article. 

and people wonder why I have such an attitude about commerce and the Korean Martial Arts. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

Dear Rudy: 

".......For example. Having seen Bruce on the mat a number of times, I think he has an early background in an art other than Hap Ki Do just by the way he moves. That does not mean he is not a serious Hap Ki Do practitioner now, it just feels to me that he began his journey in another place (or trained simultaneously in another art). Without knowing your background, am I right Bruce????...." 

Unfortunately, after almost 20 years, I still have the same basic body motion I developed in Okinawan Karate. My sense is that it will be one of those artifacts that will be with me the rest of my life like the occasional "ya'll" that still pops out in the middle of a seminar or class. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

"......Sorry, missed most of the point here, but the hurtful stuff came with those that lied about who they were...Find me one other art that does not have a hierarchy, traceable lineage and founder, or reputed founder - why would Hapkido be the only art in the world that is based on generic "group" claims? Sorry, but the "hurtful ideology" has nothing to do with Choi as the founder or his students - but mainly to do with impatient westerners that clammered for rank and position and created a situation where greed could flourish. ........" 

No, I honestly don't think that you did. I think you know the point quite clearly. BTW: Ship Pal Gwe is an art that has no real hierarchy or lineage but has been around for generations. If you want to be a traditional Korean martial art, you will have to eschew to use of some exclusive lineage since the Koreans never used such things. You want the Japanese approach but done in Korea so that you are not accountable to either the Korean or the Japanese culture.  

"......a delineation of the lowest common denominator of any KMA that comes down the pike that wants to call itself Hapkido? ....." 

Its only the Lowest Common Denominator if one is speaking in terms of "requirements", "authority" and "exclusivity".  For the rest of us its a way of helping to communicate more fluently about what we do. 

"......a standard of the art of Hapkido - using Hapkido as a base......" OK, then lets use MY style of Hapkido.  Lets use Rudys' style of Hapkido. Lets use JR Wests' style of Hapkido. Why should we use your style? Because you say so? How come you don't want to submit the anothers' authority but thats what you have to sell to others. "Come to my store because I have the "genuine article" and everyone else is a fake." Its the same song people have been singing for years. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## kwanjang (Nov 30, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> ... Unfortunately, after almost 20 years, I still have the same basic body motion I developed in Okinawan Karate. My sense is that it will be one of those artifacts that will be with me the rest of my life like the occasional "ya'll" that still pops out in the middle of a seminar or class. FWIW.
> 
> Best Wishes,
> 
> Bruce


Nothing unfortunate about that my friend.  You simply learned your basics well, and that is a good thing.  Nevertheless, it did show up to me, and that is what I had hoped to point out.  We do not need to rely on incomplete information, we CAN tell what a person does for martial arts (if that really matters).

FWIW, I accept people in NKMAA because of their need or willingness to learn, what more can a teacher want from a student regardless of their background?  If GM Choi (or his teachers) had followed the "true to lineage" thinking, he would not have had some of the major Hap Ki Do players in his school. Indeed, we might not have had Hap Ki Do.


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## American HKD (Nov 30, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> FWIW. GM Suh always claimed to have been taught by his Grandfather. In addition to that, he told me that he trained with various other martial artists for specific techniques. I never heard him tell anyone that he trained with GM Choi; however, his brother AND the late GM Pak (my teacher) both trained with GM Choi.
> 
> GM Suh also stated to me on a number of occasions that he (and several others) trained (as peer) with GM Ji, and he still considers GM Ji a good friend. I have seen the two of them interact at some of the earlier Kuk Sool tournaments in San Francisco, and they certainly seemed to be friendly.
> 
> ...


Dear Rudy,

I get it, but it's really a shame to have to be set-up as students to believe outragous myths by people who we're supposed to trust learn, character, loyalty, integrity, and honesty from.

From one perspective I see why Koreans have such a hard time following each other, after a point they all know the truth about each others lies.

I think Hapkido FWIW has less story telling than the others because Ji will simply admit Choi's Art is from Japan and the kicking is Tae-kyon he also shows teaches us material that he said "I made this up myself from expirience". Who can agrue with that!

BTW ya'll Ji said what he learned from Choi was called Yawara that's it. I asked Ji, was it Daito-Ryu? Ji said he could never prove it.

The end


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## kwanjang (Nov 30, 2004)

Hello Stuart:
It IS a shame that lack of loyalty and lack of integrity is such a prominent part of Korean martial arts, because that was the part I was most attracted to.  I think it is up to today's leaders to make things right.


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## dosandojang (Nov 30, 2004)

It IS a shame that lack of loyalty and lack of integrity is such a prominent part of Korean martial arts, because that was the part I was most attracted to. I think it is up to today's leaders to make things right.__________________
Rudy, kwanjang 



 AMEN KWANG JANG NIM TIMMERMAN! AMEN!


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## American HKD (Nov 30, 2004)

dosandojang said:
			
		

> It IS a shame that lack of loyalty and lack of integrity is such a prominent part of Korean martial arts, because that was the part I was most attracted to. I think it is up to today's leaders to make things right.__________________
> Rudy, kwanjang
> 
> 
> ...


Dear dosandojang,

I'm starting to believe it's the way of Korean Martial culture. 

I say that because for all intends and purposes the Korean Martial cuture only re-established itself after WW2. Before that time we know little about thier MA. 

So when they put all these new MA systems together they needed a heritage to attach to, mainly for thier own Korean pride and sense of culture after many years of foriegn occupation.

It's really the only thing that make sense to me, under those circumstance I can understand why they created, fabricated many stories, and where there systems came from etc.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

I wish it were that cut and dried. If you want a parallel think of the history of Scotland in Western European history. Think of a country made up of tens of clans all arguing with each other. Then you get a designated king at the top but all he can do is barely keep a lid on things. As always the general population of farmers and slaves gets it in the shorts. Oh, sure, they rebel quite often but they always get put down and spend their time hoping for something better. When things finally blow-up as they did in Scotland after the loss of Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Scotish aristocracy runs off and abandons the Scottish people. Same thing happened in Korea. There was just one major screw-up. When the old Yangban families came out of hiding after WW II the Korean economy was moving towards international trade and did not depend on land-ownership. Then there was also that nasty little civil war they had. 

What does this have to do with Korean martial arts? The fact is that the Koreans "like" to fuss among themselves. They don't feel completely normal if things are going too smooth. Certainly they will band together if there is a big enough outside threat, but, by and large they want to be left to themselves and their own squabbling. Its part of what happens to ANY entity that is routinely trashed by neighbors. After a while family members are a "family" in name only, but inside its everybody is jockeying for their own best advantages. (See: Michael Breen; Bruce Cummings). 
Sad, but true. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 30, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I wish it were that cut and dried. If you want a parallel think of the history of Scotland in Western European history. Think of a country made up of tens of clans all arguing with each other. Then you get a designated king at the top but all he can do is barely keep a lid on things. As always the general population of farmers and slaves gets it in the shorts. Oh, sure, they rebel quite often but they always get put down and spend their time hoping for something better. When things finally blow-up as they did in Scotland after the loss of Bonnie Prince Charlie, the Scotish aristocracy runs off and abandons the Scottish people. Same thing happened in Korea. There was just one major screw-up. When the old Yangban families came out of hiding after WW II the Korean economy was moving towards international trade and did not depend on land-ownership. Then there was also that nasty little civil war they had.
> 
> What does this have to do with Korean martial arts? The fact is that the Koreans "like" to fuss among themselves. They don't feel completely normal if things are going too smooth. Certainly they will band together if there is a big enough outside threat, but, by and large they want to be left to themselves and their own squabbling. Its part of what happens to ANY entity that is routinely trashed by neighbors. After a while family members are a "family" in name only, but inside its everybody is jockeying for their own best advantages. (See: Michael Breen; Bruce Cummings).
> Sad, but true.
> ...


Bruce

I suppose it can also be as simple as capitalism and market share, who ever can show the consumers they have the best most Ancient Korean Based MA wins?

The trouble with that is I'm not sure if they were that sophisticated in marketing and business planning for the future. 

I don't think Ji Han Jae was or is a good business man, but he was in the right place at the right time learning from Choi early on and the fact he became politically well connected leading him to world wide recognition. Thinking up the name Hapkido from Japanese Aikido. Mostly good luck I would say.

Who really knows?????? Just thinking out loud.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

I would say very much the old story of being in the right place at the right time. For me the question is what do we do now. I think the key is moderation, but that just might be the Buddhist in me coming out. All the same think about this. 

On the one hand you have people slavishly advocating a particular Hapkido art or personality.  At the other extreme you have folks making stuff up and calling it "hapkido". Somewhere in the middle is a "Golden Mean" of sorts. Finding it is going to depend on a few things. 

One I can see right off the bat is doing away with this idea that someone or something has THE ONE TRUE WAY to practice Korean martial arts. The Koreans, themselves, have never agreed on this and they never used this approach. Why would we introduce it now. 

A second point is for the Koreans to break down some of their reservations about accepting non-Koreans as equals. Yes, I fully admit that it is THEIR traditions and THEIR arts. Thats fine. I respect that and I commit myself to making sure those institutions are respected. What I need is for the Koreans to admit that sharing their traditions is not accomplished very well by them pontificating from on high and always speaking down to non-Koreans as though we haven't a clue. There are a few folks I know who do a better job of upholding some Korean institutions than a few Koreans I could name. 

Lastly, we are going to have to get on the same page about what we do and how we do it. This age-old crap about "I don't like what you do, so I'm leaving and starting my own game down the street" needs to stop. It every bit as bad as the "exclusivity" I mentioned in point one. I don't have to like Pelligrini, or Lee or anyone else if I don't want to, but a blind man can see that there are a lot of people who have gotten their start in the Hapkido arts, want to further their training but don't want to find themselves having to re-train in someone elses' system to move ahead in their Hapkido career. We need to make room at the table for these folks. Now, certainly we will need to hammer out the specs and what-not, but the days of telling someone that they have to start over again and learn my way of doing things when they have their own way of doing things is bad for everyone and worse for Hapkido. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 30, 2004)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Kevin:
> I assume you are talking about me here,
> 
> *No sir, I was referring to Seo, In Sun.  Again, I work on published reports, I don't know your history Rudy, and am not rude enough to infer otherwise.  Please keep this in mind.*
> ...



Hello Bruce, 

We shall continue to agree to disagree - glad we can do it civilly though - ps the mirror you gave me will get installed in the dojang next week - adds a real touch of class to my commercial establishment.  (Just a jab... :ultracool )


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

Dear Kevin:

I meant what I said before, and I mean it still. I think you and I are excellent models to demonstrate that folks in the Hapkido community can disagree---- even passionately---- but still work towards the good of the Hapkido arts. You know I will continue to play to my strengthes and you can rightly expect that I look for you to do the same.  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Nov 30, 2004)

Hello Bruce,

I could not agree more.


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## American HKD (Nov 30, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I would say very much the old story of being in the right place at the right time. For me the question is what do we do now. I think the key is moderation, but that just might be the Buddhist in me coming out. All the same think about this.
> 
> On the one hand you have people slavishly advocating a particular Hapkido art or personality. At the other extreme you have folks making stuff up and calling it "hapkido". Somewhere in the middle is a "Golden Mean" of sorts. Finding it is going to depend on a few things.
> 
> ...


Bruce

I'm for moderation that's why I think minimum standards are a good start.

The problem is some may have the belt without the skills then what? 
Sir I know your a 2nd Dan were you learned but in my school you have the skill of a 6th gup sorry you can were a green belt here. 

Someone from Combat HKD won't have a clue what do do in my school.

How can moderation help this or that person's feelings, problem, attitude about how Master so & so's a jerk and I'll never go to his school because he says I'm a green belt, etc?


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

"......I'm for moderation that's why I think minimum standards are a good start. The problem is some may have the belt without the skills then what? 
Sir I know your a 2nd Dan were you learned but in my school you have the skill of a 6th gup sorry you can were a green belt here. 
Someone from Combat HKD won't have a clue what do do in my school.
How can moderation help this or that person's feelings, problem, attitude about how Master so & so's a jerk and I'll never go to his school because he says I'm a green belt, etc?....................." 

I guess we two have a very different ideas on relating to folks within the context of the Hapkido community. 

For me, my priorities are a little different. 

First off I really don't care what a persons' rank is. Its just not that important. What I need to know is what his skill level is and those two things are not necessarily the same. Yes, I know that the rank ought to give some idea of what a persons' skills might be, but we both know that can't be counted on. So instead of asking what a persons' rank is, I would ask if he is comfortable with the four basic breakfalls. I might even ask him if he is OK with air rolls. Then I would make sure he has a partner who is at about the same skill level. 

Maybe the seminar is focusing on spin-kicks and the guy I am talking to has no idea of how to do a spin kick cuz his style of Hapkido doesn't do them. Would I put him with someone who can do spin-kicks? No. I put him with someone of comparable skill level and let him push the edges of his envelope with that person. 

Lets take your example of an ICHF person. OK, so he has no clue about what to do. What are your options? Certainly you can embarass him by demanding that he perform only you material and the way you do it. You can also find out where you share common ground, see how he does his technique compared to how you do your technique and see if there are some ways you can help each other come out of the best part of yourselves---- together. 

The question comes down to whether you can meet people on a common ground, or if the only reason you want to get together with others is to have someone to convert to your way of thinking or laud your way of doing things over. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Dec 1, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Kevin:
> 
> I meant what I said before, and I mean it still. I think you and I are excellent models to demonstrate that folks in the Hapkido community can disagree---- even passionately---- but still work towards the good of the Hapkido arts. You know I will continue to play to my strengthes and you can rightly expect that I look for you to do the same.
> 
> ...


Bruce 

............I think you and I are excellent models to demonstrate that folks in the Hapkido community can disagree............

Leave the mushy stuff at home off the site.  Ha  ha ha!


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## American HKD (Dec 1, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> "......I'm for moderation that's why I think minimum standards are a good start. The problem is some may have the belt without the skills then what?
> Sir I know your a 2nd Dan were you learned but in my school you have the skill of a 6th gup sorry you can were a green belt here.
> ...


Bruce

You missed my point.

In a seminar I would act as you described of course. 

But if 1st Dan from Red Dragon Hapkido came to you and he learned from Joe Hapkido and wanted a rank from you or rank recognition and they didn't have the skills of a YMK 5th gup? Or someone from JP's hapkido.

Would you start them over, Now what? 

My point is peoples referances as to what a BB is are different just as peoples ideas of what Hapkido is are different. Everyone has different standards.

What do you do to even the field in the Hapkido Community or live and let live? Who Cares?


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## glad2bhere (Dec 1, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

"......But if 1st Dan from Red Dragon Hapkido came to you and he learned from Joe Hapkido and wanted a rank from you or rank recognition and they didn't have the skills of a YMK 5th gup? Or someone from JP's hapkido....." 

Once again we are talking about two very different things. You are talking about ranks and requirements. I am talking about commonalities. You are asking about recognition. I am talking about communication. I think we have to be very very careful not to confuse these two braod areas. They are two VERY different concerns with VERY different intentions and goals. Let me take them one at a time. 

Scenerio One

A ICHF person comes to a seminar and wants to participate. In my mind I bump what he does up against a basic skill set that I know he would need to have to participate fully and safely. Most people I know do this informally anyhow, all I am suggesting is that we formalize what we are already doing so that less well-known practitioners from, say, Joes' Hapkido and Plumbing Supply can get the most out of an experience without hurting or getting hurt. 

In addition, while the ICHF person is out on the floor he may have a question about "unbalancing" as it relates to "4 Directions throw" even though we might be doing a version of "Reverse 180 throw". He may have concerns about "transferring authority" or "maintaining authority". If we have common ground for discussing these issues we can talk more freely about the concerns rather than spend ten minutes trying to understand each others nomenclature. 

Scenerio Two

A ICHF person wants to know what securing grading in the WHF or the YMK requires. Arguably it would be easier to answer this question if we, once again, had common ground. The answer, however, is more specific to bumping his experience up against a specific curriculum and finding out where he would stand. Having had this experience a few times I can say rather comfortably that most ICHF people already know about 30% of the YMK Hapkido curriculum at any given level. This does not keep a person from participating in a seminar and usually puts him ahead of most of the others on the mat (who may often be TKD/TSD people looking for a HKD experience). To answer your question, though, I already have a program for dealing with this need that has worked extraordinarily well, but thats not what the Minimal Standards Project is about. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Dec 1, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Stuart:
> 
> "......But if 1st Dan from Red Dragon Hapkido came to you and he learned from Joe Hapkido and wanted a rank from you or rank recognition and they didn't have the skills of a YMK 5th gup? Or someone from JP's hapkido....."
> 
> ...


Ok got ya!


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