# Posture & Power II



## KPM (Jun 5, 2015)

Before my other thread got locked because of the rather ridiculous debate about who was challenging who....I thought I had asked some legitmate questions that seemed to get dismissed and ignored.   I am trying to understand what Hendrik is talking about.  I have tried to support what he has been saying.  But he seems unwilling or unable to explain things very well.  I said this previously:

*I don't see loading as meaning to hold or to tense up. That would be "bracing." You can load into your structure without bracing. Where does the flow of the force go when you receive pressure from someone? Does it not go through your body and into the ground? Will there not be some element of compression of the skeleton and soft tissues as it goes through your structure? Then when you "refect" or "bounce" that force back into them, will there not be some element of your structure expanding? I don't think they are that different. It seems more like a matter of degrees of the "spring" effect. One may be more subtle and refined than the other.  

You used to write all the time about the "7 bows" and how they acted as springs in the body. What happened to that?*

I will add to that last comment and note that Hendrik used to regularly post a drawing that he had produced to act as a Force Flow diagram and even indicated the force through the body and legs with a  spiraling line that represented a spring.

So.  Hendrik (or Navin), can you answer the questions I have asked above?  This might go a long ways towards helping people understand what you are talking about.  Because....again....what I showed in my video and what you showed in your videos looks exactly the same to an outside observer that is not a "Force Flow expert."  Yet you say I am completely off.   If you can actually explain the differences, that will help lots of us understand what you are talking about!   Please don't see this as a challenge, but rather as an opportunity for "education" as you noted previously.  Thanks!


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 5, 2015)

Personally, I think we are all describing the same thing...but maybe through different terminology. Kind of like if you were to discuss A&P or human biomechanics with a doctor from another culture...I'd bet you both would be talking about the same knowledge/skill but through the lens of language and cultural differences.
To me, movement is movement. No need to chop it up into a multitude of terms or lessons. Keep it simple.
To me, receiving / generating / issuing are one big happy family. No need to segregate, write books, over complicate things.
Us humanoids can only move in/through so many ways or planes of motion. We only have so many joints, that have their individual ROM's.
We are all bound by gravity, hence the importance of horse training, stance(s), etc.
Food for thought: maybe this lost ancient mysterious chi "skill" HS supposedly found/invented/discovered/created was abandoned in the 1840's for a good reason? Lacking practicality perhaps?


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## Jake104 (Jun 5, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Personally, I think we are all describing the same thing...but maybe through different terminology. Kind of like if you were to discuss A&P or human biomechanics with a doctor from another culture...I'd bet you both would be talking about the same knowledge/skill but through the lens of language and cultural differences.
> To me, movement is movement. No need to chop it up into a multitude of terms or lessons. Keep it simple.
> To me, receiving / generating / issuing are one big happy family. No need to segregate, write books, over complicate things.
> Us humanoids can only move in/through so many ways or planes of motion. We only have so many joints, that have their individual ROM's.
> ...


Good post! It is simple, no need to over complicate it.


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## JPinAZ (Jun 5, 2015)

WC has a concept Loi Lau Hoi Sung. Very generally, it's about receiving force & expelling force. If you can receive force into your root/ground without being bounced back or loosing your structure, you're doing it right - regardless what labels are put to the method (bracing, loading, force flow, etc). It's really that simple. No need for any mystical flim flam descriptors borrowed from other arts - WC is a complete system that is simple, direct & efficient. If you can loi lau without giving up your space/structure or losing your root/COG, then you are doing it correctly regardless if HS or anyone else cries - "you're doing it wrong".

That reminds me of a funny story. Years ago a certain someone that is famous for saying people aren't doing it right, don't understand, etc. (We'll call him Mr X) met up with a Chi Sim expert at a public event. The Chi Sim expert dumped Mr. X  onto his butt without knowing or caring about Mr. X's mystical/superior flim flam methods. He simply entered his space, and put him to the ground (not in a hostile way mind you), with Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!".
Point is, it doesn't matter how much one theorizes, posts online, makes videos, or says people don't understand, aren't doing it right, it's not this or that, this way is the best etc - if they can't even make it work for themselves, the really don't have anything to say. At that point they should probably just shut up and start actually training & pressure testing what they're going on about before they think they can tell others what's right wrong.

So Keith, who cares what HS or anyone says? If you can make it work, then it's 'right'. If you can't, then you figure out what's wrong, train harder and/or look for methods that help you improve. Simple


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 5, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> ...with Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!"



Holy crap...now that is FUNNY! Almost lost my lunch! hahaha...thx for sharing that!!! 

I would have looked at Mr X said "prove to me its NOT wing chun!"


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2015)

I think I might know who MR X is .... but I will keep it to myself 

And it is nothing new, you will find similar things with different names in both Xingyiquan and Taijiquan...so yes some of it is semantics.....but some of it, from Mr X, is BS


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 5, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Personally, I think we are all describing the same thing...


I like to compare the "similarity" between Shuai Chiao "hip throw" and Judo "hip throw". I don't like to compare the difference. Some may like to use their

- hip to bounce on their opponent's belly upward.
- low horse stance to lift their opponent's feet off the ground.

As long as it works on the mat, who care which method that you are using. If you think that your method is better than others, get into the ring, or step on the mat and prove it.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jun 5, 2015)

Thanks for reposting the topic. As I'm new to this forum I couldn't keep up with all the references to all these people that I don't really know. But it's a topic that interests me so I would like to hear more.

My 2 cents on stance:
Most Wing Chun I have seen have no ability to hold a stance. 
Apart from practicing Chu Shong Tin lineage, I also practice Wong Shun Leung style. WSL definitely use a form of bracing to hold their structure. This is used to good effect. If too much pressure is put on the arm structures, it is going to move their stance back because their body is integrated. 

Chu Shong Tin style will not brace and they don't need to get into deep stances to hold or withstand force. Apart from correct alignment and sinking, one of the ways that force is received (as I understand it) is thinking of the force traveling from in front of you, down your back, down buttocks and hamstrings, then through knees to the front and up the front side of your legs and up the front side of your body back to arm structure. I can't actually do this effectively yet, but I can after being set up by an accomplished teacher. So the force cycles in a circle back to your partner. 

I also have a keen interest in a new art called Aunkai. They have a series of ways to develop body integration and alignment. Bracing is definitely a no no in this practice. There are a lot of drills they use to teach the body how to align itself. 

I started an internal martial arts meet up in auckland because I was interested in stance etc. While many had good knowledge of how their respective arts work, I was unable to find anyone who could take force directly. 

So while someone like Hendrik maybe referring to even higher levels of stance skill and knowledge, there is still a huge gap most people's knowledge in even basic ability to hold a stance.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 5, 2015)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Thanks for reposting the topic. As I'm new to this forum I couldn't keep up with all the references to all these people that I don't really know. But it's a topic that interests me so I would like to hear more.
> 
> My 2 cents on stance:
> Most Wing Chun I have seen have no ability to hold a stance.
> ...


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## Jens (Jun 5, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> That reminds me of a funny story. Years ago a certain someone that is famous for saying people aren't doing it right, don't understand, etc. (We'll call him Mr X) met up with a Chi Sim expert at a public event. The Chi Sim expert dumped Mr. X  onto his butt without knowing or caring about Mr. X's mystical/superior flim flam methods. He simply entered his space, and put him to the ground (not in a hostile way mind you), with Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!".



This Chi Sim expert must have been really impressed with Mr. X wing chun system because after this meeting, he ended up learning and incorporating material from Mr. X's wing chun system into his creation "Chi Shim Weng Chun".


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jun 5, 2015)

Yep, I just didn't want to name specific lineages and start a war. Plus even if there is a specific lineage in my area that are not good at something, that doesn't mean they represent the whole lineage. Or for that matter the people who I exchange with may not be ideal representations of their school.

There is no Ho Kam Ming lineage in Auckland or NZ so all I know is what I have seen on YouTube. We did have a guy from the states visit us once from this lineage. He was on holiday. The consensus was that his wing Chun was decent - had good structure etc.

CHu Shong Tin style puts a huge emphasis on stance and structure often to the exclusion of everything else. Anything that a style puts its focus and attention on, they are going to be good at. If anything, a criticism that might be valid for Chu Shong tin style, is that there is very little emphasis on practical application.


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2015)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> My 2 cents on stance:
> Most Wing Chun I have seen have no ability to hold a stance.
> Apart from practicing Chu Shong Tin lineage, I also practice Wong Shun Leung style. WSL definitely use a form of bracing to hold their structure. This is used to good effect. If too much pressure is put on the arm structures, it is going to move their stance back because their body is integrated.
> 
> Chu Shong Tin style will not brace and they don't need to get into deep stances to hold or withstand force. Apart from correct alignment and sinking, one of the ways that force is received (as I understand it) is thinking of the force traveling from in front of you, down your back, down buttocks and hamstrings, then through knees to the front and up the front side of your legs and up the front side of your body back to arm structure. I can't actually do this effectively yet, but I can after being set up by an accomplished teacher. So the force cycles in a circle back to your partner.



In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.
> 
> OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!
> 
> BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.




Steve- have you seen Sonenberg's article in the current issue of Kung Fu magazine. 

















geezer said:


> In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.
> 
> OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!
> 
> BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.





geezer said:


> If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.
> 
> OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!
> 
> BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.





geezer said:


> In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.
> 
> OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!
> 
> BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.





geezer said:


> In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.
> 
> OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!
> 
> BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> ... there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.



Exactly!


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## Jake104 (Jun 5, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to compare the "similarity" between Shuai Chiao "hip throw" and Judo "hip throw". I don't like to compare the difference. Some may like to use their
> 
> - hip to bounce on their opponent's belly upward.
> - low horse stance to lift their opponent's feet off the ground.
> ...


Good post! I'd like to also piont out body type and physical ability or disability in my case is also a factor. For me my back being fused has forced me to change how i do things. It's has actually helped me become more structurally aware. I'm always trying to protect my back and keep it in alignment. So It almost forces me to have good posture and structure. Or else I pay for it later. Now I try and do things smarter not harder. Like your hip throw example. I'd have to hip bump and use momentem instead of low horse and lift cause, that ain't happening!


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> Steve- have you seen Sonenberg's article in the current issue of Kung Fu magazine.



Nope. He hasn't spoken to me since our organization split back in 2007. We were training partners going back to 1980 and then suddenly he wouldn't even answer an email. ...WT politics. 

Anyway, I'll look for it. Thanks for the heads-up, Joy.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> Nope. He hasn't spoken to me since our organization split back in 2007. We were training partners going back to 1980 and then suddenly he wouldn't even answer an email. ...WT politics.
> 
> Anyway, I'll look for it. Thanks for the heads-up, Joy.[/QUOTE
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> All understood



Hope Jeff, you and I can meet for brunch sometime.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jun 5, 2015)

Hey Geezer,
Yeah that's right. Another thing you can do when the pressure is built up too much is draw them down. Yeah, Robert Chu is someone who I have an interest in. I really liked what he had to say on wingchungeeks. Also like what Alan Orr says. I hear he is in New Zealand now so it would be good to meet him one day. However, from his site it doesn't look like has a wing Chun school as such. 

Yes as someone said, a lot of it is simple body mechanics. That said many schools don't put any focus on it.


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## Jake104 (Jun 5, 2015)

geezer said:


> In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.
> 
> OK, well not _that _simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right _some_ of the time, you know how it can work!
> 
> BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.


Another good post! We are on a roll!
I agree most lineages do have it. I like Alan Orr's stuff.

What I think is important about dealing with force or energy is, holding pressure is only a temporary thing in combat. It's not a demo. So once contact is made, that's your move. Now it's there move. So the contact is a starting point. That split second of force to force decides what happens next. The energy decides whether I spring compress or redirect. But it's fast. I don't sit there and try and hold the pressure in a fight. The force to force, or point of contact is giving me a reading. At least this is how I look at it. Now there are also other ways or tricks of combining energies at the same time. Like sending in energy at the point of contact that disrupts. But bottom line is, all this compressing, springing, bracing ,bouncing etc is really just timing. It's learning how to feel recognize and execute all at once. The real skill is learning how to condense it down to the smallest and quickest movements possible. And not getting caught up on how much force your stance can hold. It's just Chi Sao!


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## Jens (Jun 6, 2015)

Jens said:


> This Chi Sim expert must have been really impressed with Mr. X wing chun system because after this meeting, he ended up learning and incorporating material from Mr. X's wing chun system into his creation "Chi Shim Weng Chun".





JPinAZ said:


> Disagree


Where did you think one of the Fa kuen (flower fists) came from in Chi shim weng chun? it was from Mr X's wing chun system.


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## KPM (Jun 6, 2015)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Hey Geezer,
> Yeah that's right. Another thing you can do when the pressure is built up too much is draw them down. Yeah, Robert Chu is someone who I have an interest in. I really liked what he had to say on wingchungeeks. Also like what Alan Orr says. I hear he is in New Zealand now so it would be good to meet him one day. However, from his site it doesn't look like has a wing Chun school as such.
> 
> Yes as someone said, a lot of it is simple body mechanics. That said many schools don't put any focus on it.



Alan Orr is in New Zealand and has a Wing Chun school.  It is within an MMA gym.  But not all of his students are training to be MMA competitors.  Some are there just for the Wing Chun.  You absolutely should try and pay him a visit.  He is a nice guy and very good at Chu Sau Lei WCK.


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## KPM (Jun 6, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Another good post! We are on a roll!
> I agree most lineages do have it. I like Alan Orr's stuff.
> 
> What I think is important about dealing with force or energy is, holding pressure is only a temporary thing in combat. It's not a demo. So once contact is made, that's your move. Now it's there move. So the contact is a starting point. That split second of force to force decides what happens next. The energy decides whether I spring compress or redirect. But it's fast. I don't sit there and try and hold the pressure in a fight. The force to force, or point of contact is giving me a reading. At least this is how I look at it. Now there are also other ways or tricks of combining energies at the same time. Like sending in energy at the point of contact that disrupts. But bottom line is, all this compressing, springing, bracing ,bouncing etc is really just timing. It's learning how to feel recognize and execute all at once. The real skill is learning how to condense it down to the smallest and quickest movements possible. And not getting caught up on how much force your stance can hold. It's just Chi Sao!



Good summary Jake!  I agree with you.  I haven't seen you Chi Sau, so my next comment doesn't necessarily apply to you.  Considering everything you said above, when you see someone Chi Sau'ing and it is  "all arms" you know they are not doing what you just described.  And how many times do we see that?  I'm talking about guys doing Chi Sau standing stock still and the only thing really moving is their arms.  They throw blazing combinations of movements back and forth and may pivot a bit or even take a small step.  But you never see them using that compressing and springing action. They never try to actually affect their partners structure.  They only try to hit or parry or trap....all arms.


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## KPM (Jun 6, 2015)

///////////  Can someone from Admin tell us who got banned due to that silly exchange on the other "Posture & Power" thread? That way we can know whether they are ignoring the points in this thread or simply can't respond because they were banned!  Thanks!    ////////////


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## Treznor (Jun 6, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!".



So... when Mr X gets jumped in the street one dark night, he can only defend himself if the attacker is using Wing Chun!!!

Surely we train to handle any attack, or what's the point of training at all???


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2015)

KPM said:


> ///////////  Can someone from Admin tell us who got banned due to that silly exchange on the other "Posture & Power" thread? That way we can know whether they are ignoring the points in this thread or simply can't respond because they were banned!  Thanks!    ////////////



I don't know if this will help. It's an excerpt from a post by Chris Parker on another thread discussing a banned member:



Chris Parker said:


> … the only way to check is to try to open the members profile page (not the pop-up). If the member is banned, you get an "Error" message and cannot access the page information.



So if you wonder about anybody in particular, you should be able to go to their profile page and find out.


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2015)

Treznor said:


> So... when Mr X gets jumped in the street one dark night, he can only defend himself if the attacker is using Wing Chun!!!



Nope. There's a lot of incorrect WC out there. The attacker must be using correct and authentic WC!


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## Kwan Sau (Jun 6, 2015)

geezer said:


> Nope. There's a lot of incorrect WC out there. The attacker must be using correct and authentic WC!



and only from the 1840's (if your a certain someone)...and only from the 1700's (if your that other certain someone with a book to sell)...


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## Jens (Jun 6, 2015)

KPM said:


> ///////////  Can someone from Admin tell us who got banned due to that silly exchange on the other "Posture & Power" thread? That way we can know whether they are ignoring the points in this thread or simply can't respond because they were banned!  Thanks!    ////////////


How long is the ban for, is it perminent indefinately? or is there a waiting period before they are allowed to post again?


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## Vajramusti (Jun 6, 2015)

Jens said:


> How long is the ban for, is it perminent indefinately? or is there a waiting period before they are allowed to post again?


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know and don't particularly care. Its upto the administrators-they have done a good job on this list There are and have been some bad lists on the internet,


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I don't know and don't particularly care. Its upto the administrators-they have done a good job on this list There are and have been some bad lists on the internet,



Agreed. IMO Firm and even handed moderation have kept this forum one of the bright spots on the internet. Anybody who used to frequent some of those other WC forums with inadequate moderation knows exactly what I'm talking about.


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## Jake104 (Jun 6, 2015)

KPM said:


> Good summary Jake!  I agree with you.  I haven't seen you Chi Sau, so my next comment doesn't necessarily apply to you.  Considering everything you said above, when you see someone Chi Sau'ing and it is  "all arms" you know they are not doing what you just described.  And how many times do we see that?  I'm talking about guys doing Chi Sau standing stock still and the only thing really moving is their arms.  They throw blazing combinations of movements back and forth and may pivot a bit or even take a small step.  But you never see them using that compressing and springing action. They never try to actually affect their partners structure.  They only try to hit or parry or trap....all arms.


I see that in Chi Sao all the time. I think they are missing the point. In real life that kind of " sticking hands" isn't going to do much. I might eat a punch or two but, what's stopping me from mowing you over with punches of my own? Your not making me stick, your just chasing my limbs. So guess what? I'm going to dis engage and start throwing bombs..I'll sit there and trade with you all day! I hit hard and I can take a hit! My Wing Chun is not the ever so typical chain punch battering ram. I throw full body bricks.

By the way Alan demonstrates this in one of his Youtube vids. He shows how with intent, all those fancy moves don't work. You get steam rolled over. He's absolutely right cause that's real life.

Now wait a minute, I said, "sticking hands" earlier, not, "sticky hands"? Maybe that's just semantics or maybe there is a difference? IMO there is a difference. The latter is using your body mechanics to attach or smother your opponent. It's actually more like "sticky body". Kind of like those sticky spider or scorpion traps my pest guy puts down. Once the little critters walk over it they get stuck and die. That's how I try and do chi sao now.

Funny, cause I have a habit of bumping when I engage. I liked to break there structure with a bump and run them down with punches. My current coach said it best. He said, "I'm to old to be chasing my opponent around"." I want to keep him right here". That's what I meant in the other thread about clamping. He clamps me to the ground so I can't move. It's a weird energy. He breaks my structure and I buckle or he weights a leg. Then usually there's a throw or a face plant on the way. But for me my grappling sucks so, I'm learning to drop my opponent in that spot with chained strikes. 

Here's another example of clamping energy. So I like to press with my hips. You see this all the time in Wing Chun. We tuck our hips with a slight thrust? Well FYI, keep your alignment straight cause he folded me over like a lawn chair. He was being nice since I have back issues but point was made! How??? I have no flipping clue? I think push and pull? Either way, this is what it is all about these days for me. Structure and Energies! Sorry for the long boring post!


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## Jake104 (Jun 6, 2015)

I try and use chi sao in fighting. It's not just a drill. Just incase I didn't make myself clear in my last long post!


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## KPM (Jun 7, 2015)

By the way Alan demonstrates this in one of his Youtube vids. He shows how with intent, all those fancy moves don't work. You get steam rolled over. He's absolutely right cause that's real life.

---Yep!  When you see Alan or his guys Chi Sau'ing, the whole body is engaged.  People sometimes accuse Alan of "leaning" on his opponent in Chi Sau.  But that's not at all what he is doing.  He "loads" or "compresses" his structure by pressing into the opponent.  If they offer resistance, them he "releases" that loaded "spring" and uses it is to turn them or otherwise break their structure.  He bounces their resistance back to them!  If they don't resist, he just steps in and keeps going into their center to break their structure.


The latter is using your body mechanics to attach or smother your opponent. It's actually more like "sticky body". Kind of like those sticky spider or scorpion traps my pest guy puts down. Once the little critters walk over it they get stuck and die. That's how I try and do chi sao now.

---Agreed.  If  you aren't off-balancing or in some way breaking the opponent's structure, then you've left them in a position to be able to counter you.  If someone is rolling well in Chi Sau, then they aren't leaving any openings for attacks.  So you can either just throw out some random shots to try and get them to react, or you can challenge their structure to see if it breaks and they leave an opening. 


Funny, cause I have a habit of bumping when I engage. I liked to break there structure with a bump and run them down with punches. My current coach said it best. He said, "I'm to old to be chasing my opponent around"." I want to keep him right here".

---Exactly!  But that seems to NOT be the typical approach we see in people posting videos. 

That's what I meant in the other thread about clamping. He clamps me to the ground so I can't move. It's a weird energy. He breaks my structure and I buckle or he weights a leg. Then usually there's a throw or a face plant on the way. But for me my grappling sucks so, I'm learning to drop my opponent in that spot with chained strikes.


 keep your alignment straight cause he folded me over like a lawn chair. He was being nice since I have back issues but point was made! How??? I have no flipping clue?

---Imagine what he would have done if you had your pelvis tucked under and "locked" and was leaning back in your stance!  ;-)


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## JPinAZ (Jun 7, 2015)

Jens said:


> Where did you think one of the Fa kuen (flower fists) came from in Chi shim weng chun? it was from Mr X's wing chun system.



Heh, there was a reason I didn't actually reply to you previous post. The point wasn't about who is who - which is why I didn't name names and I didn't want to pull focus from the actual point.. If someone only focuses on the small issue of who is who, I think they are missing the point of the story entirely.
FWIW no, Mr X does not teach Fa Kuen and it is not part of their system.

Moving on..


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jun 24, 2015)

KPM said:


> Alan Orr is in New Zealand and has a Wing Chun school.  It is within an MMA gym.  But not all of his students are training to be MMA competitors.  Some are there just for the Wing Chun.  You absolutely should try and pay him a visit.  He is a nice guy and very good at Chu Sau Lei WCK.



Thanks for that KPM,

Yep definitely plan on visiting his school at some point.


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## aatxe (Aug 16, 2015)

Jens said:


> Where did you think one of the Fa kuen (flower fists) came from in Chi shim weng chun? it was from Mr X's wing chun system.



Hello sorry to dispute this but as somone who practices both Chi Shim Weng Chun and Jiu Wan branch via Francis Fong as well as other arts but Fa kuen( floral fists) and specifically Ping Kuen of the Fa Kuen is from Choy Li Fut, some branches also include Pai Mei Straight step punch but again that is not Weng Chun or Wing Chun


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## Bkouba (Aug 17, 2015)

"Point is, it doesn't matter how much one theorizes, posts online, makes videos, or says people don't understand, aren't doing it right, it's not this or that, this way is the best etc - if they can't even make it work for themselves, the really don't have anything to say. At that point they should probably just shut up and start actually training & pressure testing what they're going on about before they think they can tell others what's right wrong".

JPinAZ, You sir are making too much sense, better cut it out or they will come after you with pitch forks.


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