# Yang Taiji Application Project



## Diaitadoc (Oct 23, 2018)

Hello everyone!

I’ve been practicing traditional Yang Taiji for about 15 years. Early in my training, I practiced form and push hands equally; then moved cities and took a break from partner practice, continuing forms practice on my own.

Recently, I’ve gotten a group together to explore and practice the martial applications of Taiji. I was inspired to do so after reading Brennan’s translation of Taiji Boxing According to Xu ZhiYi. In it, Xu emphasizes that Taiji *Is NOT an exclusively internal art.* The very name Taijiquan, “great ultimate fist”, shares its name with the Taiji symbol (known to some as the yinyang symbol) and implies that the art is a BALANCE of yin and yang, or internal and external, aspects. “Hard and soft complement each other. Internal and external complete each other”. 

Xu goes on to say that, yes, Taiji has a unique, specialized skill set that is “internal” in nature. In so doing, he implies that a generalized skill set, “external” in nature, complements and completes the “internal” aspect of the style.

The internal, specialized skill set of Yang Taiji is “neutralization”. The external, generalized skill set is therefore the “techniques and applications”.

The traditional Yang Taiji form is comprised of a sequence of postures. Like any form, it is can be viewed as a catalog of techniques and applications.

My group and I have begun investigating and training applications directly derived from the traditional Yang Taiji form. Our aim is to catalog, on video, at least one application sequence* for each of the postures in the form.

So far, we’ve cataloged applications for all of section 1 (up to cross hands) and the first quarter of section 2 (just past diagonal flying).

I’m adding the videos below for you to view. Enjoy! If you have willing partners, try them out - with practice, they will become wonderful additions to your Taiji.


























* I use the term “sequence” instead of “drill” to denote the compliant nature of our catalog. To sequence an application means to learn the move; to drill it implies applying the move against non-compliance. We’ll post drills once we’ve sequenced the entire form.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 23, 2018)

I will continue adding to the catalog as we go.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 26, 2018)

Postures 23-26 : Shoulder Stroke, White Crane Spreads Wings, Brush Knee, Needle at Sea Bottom.

The Shoulder Stroke application shown in this video is pretty basic. We actually explored something more complex, but didn't get good footage of it this time round so I'll try to record this Shoulder Stroke again in the future.


----------



## DaveB (Oct 27, 2018)

I think Dr Yang Jwing Ming has a video series on this, and at least one book.

What is your process for finding the applications?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2018)

Diaitadoc said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I’ve been practicing traditional Yang Taiji for about 15 years. Early in my training, I practiced form and push hands equally; then moved cities and took a break from partner practice, continuing forms practice on my own.
> 
> ...


This is going to sound harsh but that's not my purpose so don't take it personal.  It's just that I don't know how to word it any better.

I respect what you are doing and it's not easy.  In my experience with digging down into applications, if you want to really accomplish your goal then you need be able to do these applications in a free sparring environment against non-Taichi fighters.  It doesn't have to be against professional fighters, but it has to be against someone who is trying to really hit you and you really trying not to get the bad end of the attacks.

You really won't understand the techniques until you get in there and use them.  I hold myself to this rule as well.  Even while watching the first video (didn't watch them all) I could tell where you technique was failing for example.  The Knee Fold and the Ward Off.  The assumption in the form is that one technique follows the next.  The reality of it in application is that if you get the knee fold then you probably won't op to to the ward off.   If your opponent is able to resist the the knee fold then you aren't going to be able to get the ward off.

Yyou should be able to do the techniques in free sparring  with no problem as separate techniques.  I would probably not do the knee fold during free sparring until you have mastered the ability to control it as it could fold the knee in the wrong direction if your opponent moves the wrong way or if you get overly excited.

One of the biggest mistakes that I've sen in Kung fu is this assumption that applications have to follow the sequence that is found in the form.  In some cases this will be true for combinations but in most cases it's not going to be true.  You have to think of your Tai Chi applications in the context of fighting elements, the movement, the timing, etc. and the only way to do that is to spar.  Anything less than that is going to cause you to make the same mistake that many "kung fu masters" have made.

Those 2 techniques "fold knee and ward off" do not necessary mean it's a combo technique where one follows the next like the form.  They may just be separate techniques.  The ward off that follow may be your escape plan if you miss the knee completely as you fold it.  I wold  be willing to bet that if yo actually landed a fold knee technique in a fight that the ward off won't be available.  I would be willing to bet that a different option would be available or the guy's knee will be torn.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> I think Dr Yang Jwing Ming has a video series on this, and at least one book.
> 
> What is your process for finding the applications?



Hi DaveB,

I'm familiar with YJM's application interpretations. He places a lot of emphasis on Na/locking. While the form can certainly be used to explore Na, my main issue with YJM's applications is that they are often repetitive; he'll asign the same technique to multiple postures. Why assign an arm lock to ward off, then assign the same lock to white crane and cloud hands?

My approach to exploring the postures is as follows:
1) the primary focus is on shuai / throwing, unless the posture is very explicitly something else (ex. cover step, deflect & punch, step, parry & punch).
2) if a posture or movement is repeated in the form, the implication is that the posture has multiple applications. If a posture is not repeated, the implication is that the posture is tied to a specific application.
3) applications should be as uncomplicated, high percentage and effortless as possible.
4) posture by posture, applications should both stand alone and provide one or more secondary options to the preceding application in cases of double pressure / failed execution.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 27, 2018)

Hi JowGaWolf, thanks for your reply. It doesn't sound harsh at all - I'm 90% in agreement with you.

In my original post, I took care to describe the apps being demoed in the videos as sequences, and placed an asterisk beside the word. I qualified my use of the word below the videos in the first post:

"* I use the term “sequence” instead of “drill” to denote the compliant nature of our catalog. To sequence an application means to learn the move; to drill it implies applying the move against non-compliance. We’ll post drills once we’ve sequenced the entire form."

So yes, we'll definitely be working towards non-compliance.

Second, I agree that each application should be able to stand on its own. Cases in the videos where I show postures linking up are not to be seen as gospel procedure; more as options when faced with resistance, and as a way to instill a habit of flow/adaptation. If somethings's not working, if there's double pressure/resistance... don't force it, try something else! The form gives us some options.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2018)

Diaitadoc said:


> Hi DaveB,
> 
> I'm familiar with YJM's application interpretations. He places a lot of emphasis on Na/locking. While the form can certainly be used to explore Na, my main issue with YJM's applications is that they are often repetitive; he'll asign the same technique to multiple postures. Why assign an arm lock to ward off, then assign the same lock to white crane and cloud hands?


I noticed that as well when I read his books.

What is good about it is it shows that there really are not all that many techniques that are truly different.  Perhaps variations are more plentiful, but if you thoroughly understand the technique, then variations tend to fall into place.  At any rate, the same foundational techniques can be accessed from many different positions or scenarios.  This is how you get more mileage from less material and prevents your training and curriculum from becoming cluttered and cumbersome.

Believing that every piece needs to be something completely different is just a road to frustration.

The most capable people are very very very good with a smaller number of things, because they can see how it is connected and to some level is all the same.  They don’t waste their time and energy chasing after everything that might be “different” because they know it really is not.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2018)

Diaitadoc said:


> don't force it, try something else! The form gives us some options.


Glad to hear this.. It looks like you are about to go on a great learning journey.  It will be interesting to see see what you discover and how your observations through the experience of actually trying to use the techniques may or may not shape how you see how some choose to teach Taichi.

My own personal experience has given me a better ability to understand body mechanics.  Some times I see someone explain a technique like "If you do this strike then his body will move this way."  Then I just smile and think,, yeah right, I've actually done that technique and my opponent's body didn't flow in that direction.  Most recently I've earned that fighting angles are not in the forms that I train.  Because of that,   I think I'm going to slowly revamp my Jow Ga forms to include the fighting angles


----------



## DaveB (Oct 27, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> ...One of the biggest mistakes that I've sen in Kung fu is this assumption that applications have to follow the sequence that is found in the form.  In some cases this will be true for combinations but in most cases it's not going to be true.  You have to think of your Tai Chi applications in the context of fighting elements, the movement, the timing, etc. and the only way to do that is to spar.  Anything less than that is going to cause you to make the same mistake that many "kung fu masters" have made.



I would caveat your above statement with another consideration.

Often people become too focused on the practicality of the applications for a form and doing so can cause them to miss the bigger picture.

So above you advocate separating the sequence of the form from the applications because it might not fit the circumstances. 

I agree with this, but I also feel that the lesson, or principle of the form is in its sequences. So for a given movement, the full  follow-up technique may not work practically, but the idea behind the follow-up technique should work even if you express it differently with a body in front of you.

And if it makes no sense even conceptually then either the first application is wrong or the two movements are supposed to be separate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2018)

Diaitadoc said:


> 1) the primary focus is on shuai / throwing, ...


If your interest in Taiji is about it's throwing art, I will suggest that you dig into these 2 areas:

1. How to add leg skill into Taiji technique - There are leg skill such as cut, block, break, hook, lift, spring, bite, scoop, sweep, twist, bite, ...
2. How to set up your technique - Use push to set up pull, use pull to set up push, use linear to set up circular, use circular to set up linear, ...

Your technique should not always have to depend on your opponent's punch, you can attack first, when your opponent respond to your attack, you then apply your Taiji technique. This is called "give before take".

In the following clip, the leg skill is added into the Taiji "diagonal fly".






In the following clip, it shows:

- Give before take (you attack first).
- Use pull to set up push.
- Borrow your opponent's resistance force.
- Use circular motion to set up linear motion.
- Leg skill "inner hook" is used.


----------



## DaveB (Oct 27, 2018)

Diaitadoc said:


> Hi DaveB,
> 
> I'm familiar with YJM's application interpretations. He places a lot of emphasis on Na/locking. While the form can certainly be used to explore Na, my main issue with YJM's applications is that they are often repetitive; he'll asign the same technique to multiple postures. Why assign an arm lock to ward off, then assign the same lock to white crane and cloud hands?
> 
> ...



That's a good foundation to work from,  I look forward to seeing your finished drills.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> So for a given movement, the full follow-up technique may not work practically, but the idea behind the follow-up technique should work even if you express it differently with a body in front of you.
> 
> And if it makes no sense even conceptually then either the first application is wrong or the two movements are supposed to be separate.


I think we are saying the same thing.  I don't understand the first part of this, but the second part falls in line with what I've experience when learning to apply a technique.  The second part of what you stated is the same example I gave about the knee fold and the ward off that was shown in the Ops video.  I saw how awkward the transition was and I'm familiar with both.  If the knee doesn't fold the next best thing would be to reset as in a fight, the opponent isn't going to just stay their after you tried to fold their knee, which means the following ward off doesn't make sense.   However  If you try to fold someone's need and miss, then it makes sense to follow through and continue to the ward off.  So the ward off is the answer to "*What if I miss the knee fold*"  If you are successful with the knee fold then your opponent isn't going to be in position for the ward off technique.
To me this is the same as what you are saying

"..if it makes no sense even conceptually then either the first application is wrong or the two movements are supposed to be separate."   The only challenge with this is the accuracy of how we understand the concepts.  This is how I know that Jow Ga forms don't include the angles.  My understanding of the concepts of the forms is different than many who teach it. Some think it should be done as is and that it's a perfect combination of techniques as is.  But from how I understand it, there were some important key points that were left out.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your interest in Taiji is about it's throwing art, I will suggest that you dig into these 2 areas:
> 
> 1. How to add leg skill into Taiji technique - There are leg skill such as cut, block, break, hook, lift, spring, bite, scoop, sweep, twist, bite, ...
> 2. How to set up your technique - Use push to set up pull, use pull to set up push, use linear to set up circular, use circular to set up linear, ...
> ...


I like the second video.  I've experienced that same motion of going in one direction and before I could reclaim my structure and balance I was pushed into another direction in which I couldn't not recover from.  I have doubts about the first video, maining because I know that punching hand isn't going to just stay there, not even for a split second.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like the second video.  I've experienced that same motion of going in one direction and before I could reclaim my structure and balance I was pushed into another direction in which I couldn't not recover from.  I have doubts about the first video, maining because I know that punching hand isn't going to just stay there, not even for a split second.


The Taiji system always talks about "borrow force". But a Taiji guy always likes to wait for his opponent's attack in order to borrow force. IMO, it's better to give your own force so you can borrow your opponent's force which can be resistance, or yielding.

Agree that you don't have to wait for your opponent's punch. You can just "pull down his guard" and guide his leading arm to jam his own back arm when you move in.


----------



## DaveB (Oct 27, 2018)

> 1) the primary focus is on shuai / throwing, unless the posture is very explicitly something else (ex. cover step, deflect & punch, step, parry & punch).


Why throwing?

I see a lot of striking in the movements.


----------



## DaveB (Oct 27, 2018)

Another strategy you may wish to consider is moving through the form with emphasis on Speed and power. 

Sometimes the application of force to the form can reveal more about intended use than holding to the traditional rhythm. 

The Shotokan kata kanku dai was just a bunch of disjointed applications for me until I performed it with reckless abandon and found the tight turns and shifts in body weight revealed a more consistent theme.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 27, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your interest in Taiji is about it's throwing art, I will suggest that you dig into these 2 areas:
> 
> 1. How to add leg skill into Taiji technique - There are leg skill such as cut, block, break, hook, lift, spring, bite, scoop, sweep, twist, bite, ...



Hello Mr. Wang, glad you’re joining the conversation!

You may not remember, but many years ago on RSF, I sent you a video of me practicing Taiji throws on a wooden log. You critiqued it constructively, saying that I should focus on having my trips/hooks/sweeps move in the opposite direction of my arms. I took that to heart, and make sure to apply the principle in every throw I practice. Who says you can’t learn anything on the internet?

Indeed, one of my main focuses with this project is leg integration. As you can see in the videos, I strive to incorporate the stepping/stances of the postures into many of the applications as leg/base attacks - whether it’s simply stepping in close to block a leg and create a pivot point, or applying a hook, or folding the knee, or stepping on their foot.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Why throwing?
> 
> I see a lot of striking in the movements.



Hi DaveB,

Taiji, in both name and traditional CMA convention, has everything: Boxing, Kicking, Locking and Throwing.

I personally chose to put the initial emphasis on throwing for several reasons:

1) way back in the day, my instructor used to joke around, saying “Taiji’s strategy is to flip your opponent upside down and throw their head into the ground.” He was also fond of answering the question “does Taiji have head kicks?” with “sure, let me show you!” at which point he would toss the questioner to the ground and kick them in the head. Demonstratively, of course.

2) 5) As I mentioned in my reply to Mr. Wang, I’m fond of incorporating the legs into application in ways that go beyond simply changing the angle. 

3) Taiji places a lot of emphasis on push hands. Once I started adding trips and sweeps into the mix, Taiji and push hands started making more sense to me.

4) I once heard the Taiji form described as “shadow wrestling”.

5) Old stories place Yang Lu Chan as the instructor for the Imperial Shuai Jiao team.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 27, 2018)

DaveB said:


> Another strategy you may wish to consider is moving through the form with emphasis on Speed and power.
> 
> Sometimes the application of force to the form can reveal more about intended use than holding to the traditional rhythm.



I agree, and I’m already doing this!

It’s fascinating, really: Doing the form slowly confers great benefits, but doing the form “sped up” is something I’ve played with many times in the past. Before starting this project, my “sped up” Taiji was simply an accelerated version of the slow form, with power being issued at the “end” of each posture.

Now, having worked through section one, doing the form with speed, power and the intents I’ve explored and cataloged looks and feels waaay different. Still Taiji, but totally different from what it was before. I like it.


----------



## O'Malley (Oct 28, 2018)

Be careful though as trying to do the form "with power and speed" might just make you revert to external strength (muscular contraction) which Taiji is specifically designed to move away from.

It's good to see people from the internal arts that try to keep it martial. I completely agree with JGW on the subject of alive training, I think it's missing in aikido as well and once I'll feel more confident with the kata (so much to learn...) I'll incorporate that element into my practice.

An example you could definitely draw inspiration from (with some beautiful moments such as the one at 1:18):


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 28, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> Be careful though as trying to do the form "with power and speed" might just make you revert to external strength (muscular contraction) which Taiji is specifically designed to move away from.



Agreed. Although the main thing driving the tempo/timing of the form is now intent informed by the applications, relaxation, structure, balance and flow are still the order of the day.

As for Chen Ziqiang, he definitely has chops and is absolutely inspiring.


----------



## DaveB (Oct 29, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> Be careful though as trying to do the form "with power and speed" might just make you revert to external strength (muscular contraction) which Taiji is specifically designed to move away from.
> 
> It's good to see people from the internal arts that try to keep it martial. I completely agree with JGW on the subject of alive training, I think it's missing in aikido as well and once I'll feel more confident with the kata (so much to learn...) I'll incorporate that element into my practice.
> 
> An example you could definitely draw inspiration from (with some beautiful moments such as the one at 1:18):



What would be the difference between this and Judo?


----------



## O'Malley (Oct 29, 2018)

DaveB said:


> What would be the difference between this and Judo?



While you could find similarities in the use of angles and leverage, the biggest difference is the power generation method: Judo uses muscular contraction while this guy stays relaxed and aligns his structure, allowing him to send his opponent's strength into the ground (the much bigger guy can't push him around), rebound it into him and push him away by transmitting the power of his hips and lower back into his hands (best example is at 1:18). 

A typical judoka would have compromised the opponent's structure by pushing-pulliing the wrestler around to unbalance him, then would have capitalized on this imbalance by forcefully driving him into the ground. The Tai Chi guy just "grounded" the wrestler's push and rebounded it into him.

Chen Ziqiang is a top-level practitioner and not everyone can reach that level. His grandfather (?) Chen Xiaowang actually stopped building his family's house in order to train more. But he hits like a truck. Literally.


----------



## Diaitadoc (Oct 29, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> While you could find similarities in the use of angles and leverage, the biggest difference is the power generation method: Judo uses muscular contraction
> ...
> A typical judoka would have compromised the opponent's structure by pushing-pulliing the wrestler around to unbalance him, then would have capitalized on this imbalance by forcefully driving him into the ground. The Tai Chi guy just "grounded" the wrestler's push and rebounded it into him.



I’m going to disagree on this point.

Check out Kyuzo Mifune : He definitely does not use muscular contraction as power generation. If there was such a distinction as “internal” Judo, then this would be it, IMO.


----------



## O'Malley (Oct 29, 2018)

I get what you're saying and I refrained from nuancing my earlier post with this example. Typically, judoka rely heavily on muscular strength as it can be the deciding factor when one competes against an opponent of equal skill.

Mifune is an example of virtuosity in timing, technique and balance but he was not your average judoka and, still, I would not define his method of generating power as "internal strength". He used gravity, angles and the strength of his opponent with superb efficiency and subtlety but he did not channel opposing forces within his body to project power as in the CZQ video above.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 29, 2018)

*All* movement and power generation in the human body comes from muscular contraction. Unless you have discovered the secret of telekinesis (spoiler - you haven't), your ability to stand, walk, breathe, maintain a beating heart, swallow food and water, perform tai chi, perform judo, type messages on a forum, or anything else all depends on muscular contraction.

What distinguishes exceptional martial artists like Chen Ziqiang and Kyozu Mifune is how _efficiently_ they use their muscular contraction. Proper alignment of structure and relaxation are a big part of that.

Most people waste a significant percentage of their muscular effort. They attempt movements from positions where they have poor leverage. They activate muscles which are unnecessary for the movement at hand. They activate muscles more than are necessary for that particular movement at that moment. They even activate muscles which work against the movement they are attempting to perform.

In contrast, masters like Ziqiang and Mifune maintain structural alignment which maximizes their leverage. They contract only those muscles which are actually necessary for the movement in question, with the perfect timing and amount of effort in each muscle.

If you're used to the feel of wasted muscular effort then this sort of efficient use of the muscles feels like something fundamentally different. It really isn't. It's just muscular contraction used correctly.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> *All* movement and power generation in the human body comes from muscular contraction. Unless you have discovered the secret of telekinesis (spoiler - you haven't), your ability to stand, walk, breathe, maintain a beating heart, swallow food and water, perform tai chi, perform judo, type messages on a forum, or anything else all depends on muscular contraction.
> 
> What distinguishes exceptional martial artists like Chen Ziqiang and Kyozu Mifune is how _efficiently_ they use their muscular contraction. *Proper alignment of structure and relaxation are a big part of that.*
> 
> ...



Oh sure leave it to the BJJ guy to show up and start talking like he has ANY clue as to know what taiji is......wait...what...you mean he's right.......never mind 

Proper alignment, structure, relaxation plus proper use of power, root, as well as using core or body unity, or large muscle groups as opposed to isolating specific muscles and over using them...... use only as much force as necessary.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2018)

If you always

- wait for your opponent to move and make mistake, you then take advantage on it, you can use the minimum effort to achieve the maximum result.
- force your opponent to move, you then take advantage on it, you have to use more effort.

If the following clip, he uses extra force to move his opponent in circle, he then borrows his opponent's resistance force. How can you borrow your opponent's force if you don't give first?

I like "give and take". I don't like "wait and take". Acting like a tiger and trying to eat your opponent alive is the Chinese wrestling spirit. It's not the Taiji spirit and that's for sure.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> The Tai Chi guy just "grounded" the wrestler's push and rebounded it into him.


The ground concept may work in

- pushing. It won't work in pulling.
- against a push to the chest. It won't work against a punch to the face.

This is why the "pulling" is almost not used in the Taiji push hand.

Here are examples that you will need to use extra effort to pull and to move your opponent. When your opponent is moving, you then take advantage on his resistance, or yielding.


----------



## O'Malley (Oct 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> *All* movement and power generation in the human body comes from muscular contraction. Unless you have discovered the secret of telekinesis (spoiler - you haven't), your ability to stand, walk, breathe, maintain a beating heart, swallow food and water, perform tai chi, perform judo, type messages on a forum, or anything else all depends on muscular contraction.
> 
> What distinguishes exceptional martial artists like Chen Ziqiang and Kyozu Mifune is how _efficiently_ they use their muscular contraction. Proper alignment of structure and relaxation are a big part of that.
> 
> ...



I agree, though I might need to make myself clearer.

I was using "muscular contraction" as opposed to "muscular tension". From what I understand of internal strength, in regular movement, the muscles in areas like the arms and shoulders contract, effectively blocking the transfer of power from the ground to the hands. In "internal" movement, the same muscles and the fascia are _stretched_ and the bones aligned in a specific way such as to transmit force to and from the inguinal region (hara/tanden/dantien) like a web of elastic cables around the bones. Through such an alignment, one can absorb forces applied to his body into the hara, then send it through the legs into the ground ("grounding" a push), rebound it from the ground to his hands and add power to it, throwing away the opponent. Muscular contraction intervenes only to align the structure, except for the hara that generates the necessary power.

I feel like we are talking about similar things, there aren't 36 ways to make a human body function properly and the elements you and Xue Sheng cited in Mifune's case are key to efficient movement. The question would then be "Is internal strength just a specialized/extreme application of the above principles of efficiency in movement or are there elements that make it different?"

Frankly, I cannot answer yet. From what exponents of IMA told me and wrote in books, there seems to be more to it (the role of intent in directing forces within the body, the specific conditioning that needs to take place and that is different from regular physical conditioning) but honestly I can't tell from experience.


----------



## O'Malley (Oct 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The ground concept may work in
> 
> - pushing. It won't work in pulling.
> - against a push to the chest. It won't work against a punch to the face.
> ...



For pulling, you can use gravity.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> For pulling, you can use gravity.


It's true that if you

- go down to the ground yourself, nobody can throw you.
- run faster than your opponent, nobody can punch you.
- kill yourself, nobody can kill you.   

IMO, the BJJ "pull guard" can hurt the throwing art big time. Why should you train any throwing skill? All you need is to drag your opponent down with you.

When a boxing ring can be as big as the football field, nobody will train the boxing skill. All you will need is whether you can run faster than your opponent.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The ground concept may work in
> 
> - pushing. It won't work in pulling.
> - against a push to the chest. It won't work against a punch to the face.
> ...



Ever hear of the 13 postures.....ever here of Cai (Tsai)


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 29, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ever hear of the 13 postures.....ever here of Cai (Tsai)


Yang Taiji "double pulling" is pull. But you just don't see it is used in the Taiji push hand. IMO, if pulling is used, there will be no Taiji push hand game.

In order to pull, you have to grab. Taiji guys don't like to grab. When you push me, if I grab on your arm, your body and my body are connected. Since I'm part of your body, you cannot push me away.

When your opponent grabs on your arm, it's very difficult to push him away.







When a clinch is established, to push away your opponent is almost impossible.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Yang Taiji "double pulling" is pull. But you just don't see it is used in the Taiji push hand. IMO, if pulling is used, there will be no Taiji push hand game.
> 
> In order to pull, you have to grab. Taiji guys don't like to grab. When you push me, if I grab on your arm, your body and my body are connected. Since I'm part of your body, you cannot push me away.
> 
> ...




Which means you and none of the Yang taiji guys you have done push hands with do not know Cai, or that there are times and reasons to grab, kind of hard not to grab if y ou are going to apply qinna. 

You seem to think all Yang Taiji does is push and we have been through this many times and although I do feel you are rather knowledgeable about many things martial arts, but not so much Taijiquan.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2018)

Xue Sheng said:


> Which means you and none of the Yang taiji guys you have done push hands with do not know Cai, or that there are times and reasons to grab, kind of hard not to grab if y ou are going to apply qinna.


Tauiji has pulling and grabbing. But the Taiji PH rule does not encourage it.

According to the Houston Kung Fu tournament Taiji push hand rule, the pulling is only allowed for 1 second. In Sanda, the clinch is allowed for 3 seconds. That 1 second pulling limitation is just too short.

In Taiji PH, you can push for as long as you want to. But you can only pull for 1 second. Why?

Rules - World Star Chinese Martial Arts Competition
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Taiji Push hand tournament rule

Techniques allowed

 Pulling with one hand no more than 1 second, trapping techniques, non-impact techniques to off opponent’s balance.

 Contact is allowed between hips and collarbone.

 The head, neck, spine and legs cannot be attacked, or will result in a warning or disqualification.

Scoring:

 The center and corner judges can call for a point, points are awarded by majority judges.

Warning:

 Grabbing longer than 1 second or with both hands, grabbing clothing.

 Wrapping hands around the back.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Tauiji has pulling and grabbing. But the Taiji PH rule does not encourage it.
> 
> According to the Houston Kung Fu tournament Taiji push hand rule, the pulling is only allowed for 1 second. In Sanda, the clinch is allowed for 3 seconds. That 1 second pulling limitation is just too short.
> 
> ...


I could be wrong, but I don't think most Tai Chi practitioners are focused on competition.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I could be wrong, but I don't think most Tai Chi practitioners are focused on competition.


My simple question is, "How can you push me away if I grab on your arm?" The answer is you can't.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 30, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Tauiji has pulling and grabbing. But the Taiji PH rule does not encourage it.
> 
> According to the Houston Kung Fu tournament Taiji push hand rule, the pulling is only allowed for 1 second. In Sanda, the clinch is allowed for 3 seconds. That 1 second pulling limitation is just too short.
> 
> ...



Here is the issue, you are quoting competition rules and I'm talking traditional Yang push hands....don't much care about competition rules of Push hands because, IMHO, it is not push hands


----------



## KabutoKouji (Nov 1, 2018)

in my TJJ class we are also putting a serious emphasis on trying to use it's applications at real speed and 'live' situations as much as possible. One thing I will say is that once you are in the throw position we use Grasp Sparrows Tail left for (if you can manage to grab the arms etc quick enough) it can be a very effective tool, people with much smaller size than me have landed me flat on my *** countless times easily once they are in it.


----------

