# Do you want to evaluate my workout?



## amateur (Dec 6, 2018)

I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.

-Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.
-Active stretching: 16 lateral lunges.
-20 jab/cross combos (10 per side).
-Isometric ledge pull up (10 breaths long); alternately, if you have built up more strength than me, you can do a number of reps instead.
-Horse stance (20 breaths long).
-10 knuckles push ups.
-15 lying leg raises.
-20 snap kicks (10 per leg).
-20 roundhouse kicks (10 per leg).
-20 push kicks (10 per leg).
-Cool down: 10 chi breaths.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2018)

What are you trying to accomplish with this?  Are you receiving instruction from anyone in either martial arts or fitness?  If so, did you design this with their input?  What do they think of this?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 6, 2018)

It looks like your solo training has covered the following areas:

1. Endurance.
2. Flexibility.
3. Balance.
4. Power.
5. Speed.
6. MA skill.

As for the MA skill, each week you can pick up 4 favor combos and drill it as east, south, west, north and repeat 20 times. This way, your MA skill solo training will be different each week.

For example,

1. Facing east - round house kick, side kick combo (kick).
2. Facing south - jab, cross, uppercut, hook combo (punch).
3. Facing west - shoulder lock, elbow lock combo (lock).
4. Facing north - hip throw, single leg combo (throw).

Repeat 1, 2, 3, 4 for 20 times. This way you can be sure that you have covered kick, punch, lock, and throw.


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2018)

How long does that take?


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## dvcochran (Dec 6, 2018)

amateur said:


> I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.
> 
> -Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.
> -Active stretching: 16 lateral lunges.
> ...


Welcome to the forum. 
What is your level of experience? This seem like a very good cardio & strength curriculum. If your experience is limited I would be concerned about the kick and punch technique.


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2018)

amateur said:


> I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.
> 
> -Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.
> -Active stretching: 16 lateral lunges.
> ...



You really need a trainer, or an instructor, coach, or whatever.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> You really need a trainer, or an instructor, coach, or whatever.


How do you know that he is not a trainer, instructor, coach, Sensei, Sifu, master, grand master, great grand master himself?

If Mike Tyson comes to this forum and post his 1st post as the OP does, will you tell him, "You really need a trainer".

My question is, "How do you know that he is not Mike Tyson?"


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you know that he is not a trainer, instructor, coach, Sensei, Sifu, master, grand master, great grand master himself?
> 
> If Mike Tyson comes to this forum and post his 1st post as the OP does, will you tell him, "You really need a trainer".
> 
> My question is, "How do you know that he is not Mike Tyson?"



Because what he posted as a workout, isn't a work out. It's barely a warm up. It's what people who are taking a day off from training do on days they do nothing. Ten push ups? I din't even know push ups came in small packages of ten.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> Ten push ups?


I'll do at least 60 push ups. 10 per side may be low. 20 or 30 per side should be about right.

Again if he is 90 years old, 10 push ups is not bad at all.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll do at least 60 push ups. 10 per side may be low. 20 or 30 per side should be about right.



He's not (from what he wrote) doing one-handed push ups... He's doing 10. Total.

I have to agree with @Buka. Our students do more kicks than that just warming up.

To be fair, though... if he's a couch potato who has never exercised a day in his life, this may well be all he can manage. It's at least a start, and better than playing WoW.


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'll do at least 60 push ups. 10 per side may be low. 20 or 30 per side should be about right.
> 
> Again if he is 90 years old, 10 push ups is not bad at all.



He's 32.


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## Danny T (Dec 6, 2018)

amateur said:


> I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.
> 
> -Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.
> -Active stretching: 16 lateral lunges.
> ...


Workout? This is a warm up.


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2018)

Did anyone notice the really tactful way I approached that?


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## Martial D (Dec 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> How long does that take?


That whole thing isn't even a warm up. That would take 5 mins tops.


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## pdg (Dec 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Did anyone notice the really tactful way I approached that?



It was impressive in it's tactfulness.


As to the workout, it looks quite a lot like what my daughter did in her "little dragons" class as part one of the warmup.

Except for the knuckle pushups, that would've been a bit mean to get a 5 year old girl doing those...

You'd need to add some stuff to equal her warmup though - like throw in some sit-ups, and some burpees, and do the whole set 3 or 4 times - then do the actual class.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If Mike Tyson comes to this forum and post his 1st post as the OP does, will you tell him, "You really need a trainer".




I don't think he'd have the username 'amateur', which to my mind indicates a lot so perhaps some advice from people rather than laughing?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Did anyone notice the really tactful way I approached that?


Very clever. I complete missed that the first time through.


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## amateur (Dec 7, 2018)

Buka said:


> Ten push ups? I din't even know push ups came in small packages of ten.



I'm talking about full push ups, sweetie. Inhale as you go all the way down, till your chest brushes the ground, then exhale as you go all the way up. If we're talking about 'cheating reps', I also can do several tens of them, but try to do just ten ones, on your knuckles and on a marble floor, after you have just done the exercises that come before push ups in my workout, and see how 'easy' it is.


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## amateur (Dec 7, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That whole thing isn't even a warm up. That would take 5 mins tops.



It takes me 30-45 minutes. I'd like to see you do all that stuff in 5 minutes (no cheating reps and punching/kicking with proper technique); if you can really do that, post a video of yourself and you'll have my respect.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> It takes me 30-45 minutes. I'd like to see you do all that stuff in 5 minutes (no cheating reps and punching/kicking with proper technique); if you can really do that, post a video of yourself and you'll have my respect.



I was curious, so I decided to try this out last night btw. You're right. Took a bit longer than 5 minutes...maybe 10. Made a few adjustments-regular pull ups instead of holding, held the pushup in 'down' position for 3 seconds each, to make 100% certain I wasn't cheating, and side blade kicks instead of snap kicks..don't like snap kicks.

I'm also not in the greatest shape at the moment. It's a good starting point, but if you're still new to working out, I would make sure to add more cardio, add something for your core, and way more stretching. I hate stretching, I think it's the devils work, but it's still important.


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## amateur (Dec 7, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I was curious, so I decided to try this out last night btw. You're right. Took a bit longer than 5 minutes...maybe 10. Made a few adjustments-regular pull ups instead of holding, held the pushup in 'down' position for 3 seconds each, to make 100% certain I wasn't cheating, and side blade kicks instead of snap kicks..don't like snap kicks.
> 
> I'm also not in the greatest shape at the moment. It's a good starting point, but if you're still new to working out, I would make sure to add more cardio, add something for your core, and way more stretching. I hate stretching, I think it's the devils work, but it's still important.



Well, I don't know exactly how long it takes, I don't check out the clock all day, 30-45 minutes was how long I felt it takes, but maybe I unconsciously took into consideration the time needed to go to the park to do that workout and back.
For my core, I do leg raises. What's wrong with them?
About stretching, there are different views, even among experts, about its usefulness. I guess it depends on the individual's body. My experience taught me that my only muscles I need to stretch (because I pull otherwise) are my inner thighs.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> Well, I don't know exactly how long it takes, I don't check out the clock all day, 30-45 minutes was how long I felt it takes, but maybe I unconsciously took into consideration the time needed to go to the park to do that workout and back.
> For my core, I do leg raises. What's wrong with them?
> About stretching, there are different views, even among experts, about its usefulness. I guess it depends on the individual's body. My experience taught me that my only muscles I need to stretch (because I pull otherwise) are my inner thighs.


Nothings wrong with leg raises, IMO they're one of the best core exercises out there. But if you're just doing straight leg raises you're ignoring your obliques.

And stretching in general is important, the question is more of when to stretch and how to stretch, not whether or not stretching as a whole is helpful. If you could find an expert that says 'do not stretch' I would be very interested in his reasoning. Like I said, I hate stretching, but I still force myself to do it. I'm not going to get injured just because I was lazy, plus it helps with flexibility.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> Well, I don't know exactly how long it takes, I don't check out the clock all day, 30-45 minutes was how long I felt it takes, but maybe I unconsciously took into consideration the time needed to go to the park to do that workout and back.
> For my core, I do leg raises. What's wrong with them?
> About stretching, there are different views, even among experts, about its usefulness. I guess it depends on the individual's body. My experience taught me that my only muscles I need to stretch (because I pull otherwise) are my inner thighs.


Just wanted to add, if you can work up to hanging leg raises, those will help a lot more.


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## pdg (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> I'm talking about full push ups, sweetie. Inhale as you go all the way down, till your chest brushes the ground, then exhale as you go all the way up. If we're talking about 'cheating reps', I also can do several tens of them, but try to do just ten ones, on your knuckles and on a marble floor, after you have just done the exercises that come before push ups in my workout, and see how 'easy' it is.



You have absolutely no clue about @Buka do you?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> Well, I don't know exactly how long it takes, I don't check out the clock all day, 30-45 minutes was how long I felt it takes, but maybe I unconsciously took into consideration the time needed to go to the park to do that workout and back.



You said you're doing the push ups on a marble floor. The park has a marble floor? That's...unique...


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## amateur (Dec 7, 2018)

Kempodisciple:

Lying leg raises are temporary; I'm trying to work my way to hanging ones. They make both my
abs and obliques sore. Maybe you meant they don't work obliques as much as other exercises...

I have tried planks as well, but, since they engage arm muscles, they might interfrere with my
push ups/pull ups. As for the classic sit ups, they hurt my back. That's why I finally picked
leg raises for core.

You misunderstood me. I never said that experts say we shouldn't stretch. I said that some
experts say it's not that beneficial. As long as I do some active lateral lunges, I won't pull a
muscle and I guess it helps with flexibility as well. Do you have any specific stretch in mind I
could add for extra flexibility?


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## amateur (Dec 7, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> You said you're doing the push ups on a marble floor. The park has a marble floor? That's...unique...



I have worked out at home as well as in the park. My house has a marble floor, the park has a stone floor.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> Kempodisciple:
> 
> Lying leg raises are temporary; I'm trying to work my way to hanging ones. They make both my
> abs and obliques sore. Maybe you meant they don't work obliques as much as other exercises...
> ...


Yeah, I think that was a misunderstanding. and I would include either leg lifts to the side or russian twists. regular situps suck.
There's a book you would probably like-convict conditioning. It focuses on some of the exercises you're already doing, offers some variations, and helps figure out a progression. You could get it online for like 10 bucks, or probably find a free sample of the first few chapters somewhere.


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## pdg (Dec 7, 2018)

Ok, so the thing is that you asked people in the title to evaluate your workout.

Then you said:



amateur said:


> I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.



So, a bunch of pretty well experienced martial artists (and me) told you what we thought. Then you got uppity and looked like you wanted to make it a challenge...


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## Martial D (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> It takes me 30-45 minutes. I'd like to see you do all that stuff in 5 minutes (no cheating reps and punching/kicking with proper technique); if you can really do that, post a video of yourself and you'll have my respect.


We all have to start somewhere I guess. Good on you.

I'm more than a bit curious how you can stretch that out to the better part of an hour though, I must admit.


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## amateur (Dec 7, 2018)

Martial D said:


> We all have to start somewhere I guess. Good on you.
> 
> I'm more than a bit curious how you can stretch that out to the better part of an hour though, I must admit.



I told you that I miscalculated.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> Kempodisciple:
> 
> Lying leg raises are temporary; I'm trying to work my way to hanging ones. They make both my
> abs and obliques sore. Maybe you meant they don't work obliques as much as other exercises...
> ...


Missed the part where you asked about what specific stretches would help. I don't think I'm the best to answer that, @JR 137 , you got any advice? (actually tagging you because I think you'd find this thread in general interesting)


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## Danny T (Dec 7, 2018)

amateur said:


> I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.
> 
> -Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.
> -Active stretching: 16 lateral lunges.
> ...


It is awesome you have started to do some exercises and to begin getting into better physical shape.
Our ‘Warm Ups’ for comparison.
- 3 minute jog, skipping, bear crawl, crab walk, carioca type of exercise mix - 30 secs of burpees right after the jog.
- 2 mins relaxed double kick roundhouse kicks with the goal of 25 doubles on each side within the 2 mins.
- 90 secs 100 skip knees minimum.
- 15.  10 count knuckle p/u 10 ct down, 10 ct hold, 10 count up.
- 3 minutes shadow boxing 
Light stretching
Then we begin to workout.


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## Martial D (Dec 8, 2018)

amateur said:


> I told you that I miscalculated.


You did? I don't see any more posts from you directed at me after you said it takes 30-45 mins. If you made another post to correct that, it must have not submitted.

Anyhow, cute warmup.


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## pdg (Dec 8, 2018)

Martial D said:


> You did? I don't see any more posts from you directed at me after you said it takes 30-45 mins. If you made another post to correct that, it must have not submitted.



You weren't tagged in it, but it was mentioned...



amateur said:


> 30-45 minutes was how long I felt it takes, but maybe I unconsciously took into consideration the time needed to go to the park to do that workout and back.



So yeah - 10-15 minutes to walk to the park, a few minutes to select a playlist, a bit of looking around to see if there's anyone pretty watching, "workout", sort yourself out then 10-15 minutes to walk home.

I can see it taking 30-45 minutes for sure


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## Headhunter (Dec 8, 2018)

Buka said:


> Because what he posted as a workout, isn't a work out. It's barely a warm up. It's what people who are taking a day off from training do on days they do nothing. Ten push ups? I din't even know push ups came in small packages of ten.


To some people it is a workout depending on their fitness level. If he's not that fit it'd be stupid for him to start trying to do an hours work straight away


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 8, 2018)

Assuming you dont do generic exercise at a gym or something as well.      

Try and add some weight work either on that exercise for some days or separate to it.  also assuming no one has typed this. 

It just seems prudent to add it as it exercises your body differently and gets you used to actually lifting and moving weights which can be semi important.    At least you wont think its important until you need to drag someone who weighs 90kilos.


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## amateur (Dec 8, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I don't like snap kicks.



Just curious, is there any particular reason for not liking snap kicks?



pdg said:


> So yeah - 10-15 minutes to walk to the park, a few minutes to select a playlist, a bit of looking around to see if there's anyone pretty watching, "workout", sort yourself out then 10-15 minutes to walk home.
> 
> I can see it taking 30-45 minutes for sure



Dunno man, I hadn't given that much thought to my workout's duration, because it had never occurred to me that there is a minimum amount of time training should last, so I never trained with a watch around my wrist. But still, I think the guy who said he can do it in 5 minutes was exaggerating.


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## Buka (Dec 8, 2018)

amateur said:


> I'm talking about full push ups, sweetie. Inhale as you go all the way down, till your chest brushes the ground, then exhale as you go all the way up. If we're talking about 'cheating reps', I also can do several tens of them, but try to do just ten ones, on your knuckles and on a marble floor, after you have just done the exercises that come before push ups in my workout, and see how 'easy' it is.



There wasn't any conviviality in my respone, no offense meant, honest.

A good part of my career I evaluated exercise, Defensive Tactics and fighting programs for organizations, departments, academies and fighters. I just did a knee jerk eval of what you posted. I was fortune, I did Martial Arts full time for a living.

I have some experience with pushups. They were an integral mainstay of who we were and what we did. On knuckles, fingers, wrist, the back of hands, hammer fists, on ridge hands. All kinds. Zen pushups, jump pushups, clap pushups - clapping behind the back, not in front - partner pushups, weight vest pushups, any kind you can think of. On cement, marble, on stands, on gravel, on roofing shingles on anything and everything you can think of. And, man, I love talking pushups. Pushups are developed to a point where they are no longer an exercise for the body, they are an exercise in discipline. And in a happy, psyched up kind of way.

Besides, they bring out the sweetie in me. 

Again, no offense meant.


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## CB Jones (Dec 8, 2018)

Buka said:


> There wasn't any conviviality in my respone, no offense meant, honest.
> 
> A good part of my career I evaluated exercise, Defensive Tactics and fighting programs for organizations, departments, academies and fighters. I just did a knee jerk eval of what you posted. I was fortune, I did Martial Arts full time for a living.
> 
> ...



You weren’t one of those evil PT instructors that liked to call out “half way down and hold it” while they talk to the class were you... they liked to call them motivational exercises.....evil bastards. Lol


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## pdg (Dec 8, 2018)

amateur said:


> Dunno man, I hadn't given that much thought to my workout's duration, because it had never occurred to me that there is a minimum amount of time training should last, so I never trained with a watch around my wrist. But still, I think the guy who said he can do it in 5 minutes was exaggerating



I've never considered a minimum either, but I can say that the list at the start of this thread wouldn't be much of a workout for me - and it's personal effect that's the important thing.

I could go through it in (as the saying goes) 5 minutes (it'd honestly be between 5 and 10) - but I know plenty of people who couldn't make it to the end...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 9, 2018)

amateur said:


> -Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.


I won't consider jumping jack or lighting running as warm up. To me, warm up is to loose all body joints. You should start form bottom and go up:

- toes joint,
- ankle joint,
- knee joint,
- hip and groin joint,
- waist joint,
- spine,
- shoulder joint,
- elbow joint,
- wrist joint,
- finger joint,
- neck joint.

For example, to loose your

- shoulder joint, you can rotate one arm forward wihile rotate the other arm backward.
- finger joints, you can grab a tight fist, open your palm with fingers open, ...
- ...


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## Buka (Dec 10, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> You weren’t one of those evil PT instructors that liked to call out “half way down and hold it” while they talk to the class were you... they liked to call them motivational exercises.....evil bastards. Lol



Nah. But I _was_ one of those guys who...

I taught DT long before I was a cop. I was a contractor at Boston's Academy. (The DT instructors over a span of twenty years were all full time Martial Arts students of mine.) The Academy was a mile from my house. A mile in the opposite direction was a local ball field, with a worn out outfield. I don't know how much Academies make the cadets run these days, but it used to be a LOT. Especially those first few months.

So....a hundred and fifty cadets would run by my house with some of the Academy staff. They would be running and singing to military cadences. They would run some miles in a circular route, then stop at that ball field, especially when it was raining. Then they would do push ups in the mud puddles. A whole boot load of push ups.

I'd walk down with a cup of hot tea and watch, crouching right down so I could give encouragement to the ones I thought needed it....and give a hard time to the ones I thought needed that. All the while telling them how glorious and warm my tea was as they shivered in the mud.

Good times.


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## jobo (Jan 6, 2019)

amateur said:


> I made it myself for my solo training. Tell me what you think about it.
> 
> -Warm up: 25 jumping jacks or some light running.
> -Active stretching: 16 lateral lunges.
> ...


people were a bit mean about your warm up, sorry work out , so I'll try and give some pointers,

have some idea of what your trying to achieve and find the best exercises for that,  rather than picking them at random,
stop doing push ups on your knuggles, it only restricting the number of push up you can do and the benefit to the rest of your body,

if your trying to build strength then doing much more than 10 push ups is a waste of time, let's say you work up to 30 then only the last five of them is helping you to your goal, so make the push up harder by elevating your feet, moving your arms, so that 5 to 10 is all you can do, and save a sh d load of time.

 don't do an isometric hold on the pull up, do an isokinetic ( very slow) descent, in no time you'll be able to reverse the process and do a proper pull up or 10

get some body weight squats in there


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## amateur (Jan 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> 1. Have some idea of what your trying to achieve and find the best exercises for that,  rather than picking them at random,
> stop doing push ups on your knuggles, it only restricting the number of push up you can do and the benefit to the rest of your body.
> 
> 2. Don't do an isometric hold on the pull up, do an isokinetic ( very slow) descent, in no time you'll be able to reverse the process and do a proper pull up or 10.
> ...



1. I have gone past the phase when I used to believe that, to be a good martial artist, you have to have buffed muscles. I selected exercises that make me a better martial artist. I do push ups not so much to build muscles as to harden my knuckles and be able to punch hard surfaces (I guess it's the same idea as bone conditioning exercises I talked about on another thread).

2. I have considered replacing this with chin ups. I can do 10 of them, as opposed to pull ups, which I can't even do one of. Do you think chin ups will help me build strength for pull ups?

3. I discarded squats long ago, because they would turn my knees into a mess. I prefer isometric horse stance.


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## jobo (Jan 6, 2019)

amateur said:


> 1. I have gone past the phase when I used to believe that, to be a good martial artist, you have to have buffed muscles. I selected exercises that make me a better martial artist. I do push ups not so much to build muscles as to harden my knuckles and be able to punch hard surfaces (I guess it's the same idea as bone conditioning exercises I talked about on another thread).
> 
> 2. I have considered replacing this with chin ups. I can do 10 of them, as opposed to pull ups, which I can't even do one of. Do you think chin ups will help me build strength for pull ups?
> 
> 3. I discarded squats long ago, because they would turn my knees into a mess. I prefer isometric horse stance.


you ask d for feed back now you want to argue about it, just carry on with what your doing,


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## amateur (Jan 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> you ask d for feed back now you want to argue about it, just carry on with what your doing,



Huh? Did I miss something?


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## jobo (Jan 6, 2019)

amateur said:


> Huh? Did I miss something?


yes the bit where you were told to stop for BG push up on youknuggles and you said a) it was good for you and b) you have no desire to increase you dreadful level of strength, coz ma don't need it ? sorry mate life's to short


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## amateur (Jan 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes the bit where you were told to stop for BG push up on youknuggles and you said a) it was good for you and b) you have no desire to increase you dreadful level of strength, coz ma don't need it ? sorry mate life's to short



Chill, we're having a discussion. I ask for feedback, people tell me their opinion, I tell them mine and it goes on. You asked me what I hoped to achieve when picking my exercises and I told you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 6, 2019)

amateur said:


> Chill, we're having a discussion. I ask for feedback, people tell me their opinion, I tell them mine and it goes on. You asked me what I hoped to achieve when picking my exercises and I told you.


Building muscles is important for martial arts though, at least if your goal is to be good in fights. You dont have to go crazy with it, but a certain amount of strength is needed.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 6, 2019)

I love exercise. I could sit quietly and watch people do it all day.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

amateur said:


> 1. I have gone past the phase when I used to believe that, to be a good martial artist, you have to have buffed muscles. I selected exercises that make me a better martial artist. I do push ups not so much to build muscles as to harden my knuckles and be able to punch hard surfaces (I guess it's the same idea as bone conditioning exercises I talked about on another thread).
> 
> 2. I have considered replacing this with chin ups. I can do 10 of them, as opposed to pull ups, which I can't even do one of. Do you think chin ups will help me build strength for pull ups?
> 
> 3. I discarded squats long ago, because they would turn my knees into a mess. I prefer isometric horse stance.


What is your distinction between the terms "chin up" and "pull up"? I use them for the same exercise.


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## MetalBoar (Jan 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What is your distinction between the terms "chin up" and "pull up"? I use them for the same exercise.


I believe most people define a "chin up" as being performed with hands supinated and a "pull up" performed with hands pronated. For most people the chin up is mechanically easier to perform than a pull up.


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## amateur (Jan 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> What is your distinction between the terms "chin up" and "pull up"? I use them for the same exercise.



Pull up: Hands pronated, arms about 1.5 shoulder width apart.

Chin up: Hands supinated, arms about shoulder width apart.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 6, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> I believe most people define a "chin up" as being performed with hands supinated and a "pull up" performed with hands pronated. For most people the chin up is mechanically easier to perform than a pull up.





amateur said:


> Pull up: Hands pronated, arms about 1.5 shoulder width apart.
> 
> Chin up: Hands supinated, arms about shoulder width apart.



Apparently that's a common usage I wasn't aware of. As you said, MetalBoar, I can do a larger number of chin-ups than pull-ups. I've just always used the terms interchangeably.


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## dvcochran (Jan 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Apparently that's a common usage I wasn't aware of. As you said, MetalBoar, I can do a larger number of chin-ups than pull-ups. I've just always used the terms interchangeably.


I guess I am not that technical; palms in, palms out. Palms in seem to work my biceps, palms out seem to work my shoulders. Both work my core I think.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> I believe most people define a "chin up" as being performed with hands supinated and a "pull up" performed with hands pronated. For most people the chin up is mechanically easier to perform than a pull up.


yes very much so, it's easier as you have your biceps maximally engage, which you should do depends on what real world application your training for, if you want to pump up your biceps, then the chin up is king,  but then your developed pull strength, will require you to engage the biceps, IE nuckles down,/ away from you, which isnt the most convenient, if  your dragging someone on to a ledge, or pulling some one towards you, or climbing a wall


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes very much so, it's easier as you have your biceps maximally engage, which you should do depends on what real world application your training for, if you want to pump up your biceps, then the chin up is king,  but then your developed pull strength, will require you to engage the biceps, IE nuckles down,/ away from you, which isnt the most convenient, if  your dragging someone on to a ledge, or pulling some one towards you, or climbing a wall


And you can probably add much of grappling to that list. It's early, and I'm on my first cup of coffee, so I might rethink this distribution, but a quick mental check says much more than half of the pulling in grappling would be better served by the pull-up.


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> And you can probably add much of grappling to that list. It's early, and I'm on my first cup of coffee, so I might rethink this distribution, but a quick mental check says much more than half of the pulling in grappling would be better served by the pull-up.


yes, it seem to have a lot more real world applications, but do both, in fact get a pull up bar with pegs on and do the newtral position as well,


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2019)

amateur said:


> Chill, we're having a discussion. I ask for feedback, people tell me their opinion, I tell them mine and it goes on. You asked me what I hoped to achieve when picking my exercises and I told you.


we have clearly got different perspectives on this discussion, mine is that you are largely clueless on physical fitness in general and what specifically you need to develop for fighting, as such I'm trying to give you some pointers, yours is that what you are doing is right and you don't need to take any heed of what I'm saying, which makes me typing it a a waste of time and effort, you remind me if the fasting man we had a few months ago,


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## amateur (Jan 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> we have clearly got different perspectives on this discussion, mine is that you are largely clueless on physical fitness in general and what specifically you need to develop for fighting, as such I'm trying to give you some pointers, yours is that what you are doing is right and you don't need to take any heed of what I'm saying, which makes me typing it a a waste of time and effort, you remind me if the fasting man we had a few months ago,



You're wrong. I know plenty of stuff about fitness and martial arts. For instance, I know that training for aesthetical reasons is different from training for martial arts. In the first case, you train all your muscles equally. In the second case, you don't need to bother with every muscle on your body. Triceps/biceps growth will do you little to no good in a fight. That's why I do knuckles push ups, which develop forearms too, so that I gain gripping strength. (The knuckles conditioning benefit is something we can take to my other thread.) Normal push ups target mainly triceps/chest. Why don't you try to reply to my arguments above instead of being like 'I'm done with you'? 
This is a discussion forum. We exchange views until we reach a conclusion. It's not a place where some people are considered authorities and the other people just ask for their advice and treat their replies as gospel without asking for explanations.


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## pdg (Jan 7, 2019)

amateur said:


> You're wrong. I know plenty of stuff about fitness and martial arts. For instance, I know that training for aesthetical reasons is different from training for martial arts. In the first case, you train all your muscles equally. In the second case, you don't need to bother with every muscle on your body. Triceps/biceps growth will do you little to no good in a fight. That's why I do knuckles push ups, which develop forearms too, so that I gain gripping strength. (The knuckles conditioning benefit is something we can take to my other thread.) Normal push ups target mainly triceps/chest. Why don't you try to reply to my arguments above instead of being like 'I'm done with you'?
> This is a discussion forum. We exchange views until we reach a conclusion. It's not a place where some people are considered authorities and the other people just ask for their advice and treat their replies as gospel without asking for explanations.



I have to disagree hugely with "don't need to bother" with certain muscle groups.

So you develop grip strength, without bicep, tricep, pectoral and pretty much every muscle in your shoulders, you'll be like a sticky noodle - annoying to shake off but having little actual effect.

You want to pull with your string grip - you need strong biceps and back muscles. Want to push - you need shoulder, chest and tris. Want to twist, you need the lot.

You use knuckle pushups to condition your knuckles - that suggests you want to punch. Weak biceps will mean you will have difficulty keeping your hands up, and weak tris will inhibit the force of your extension (punching power starts elsewhere, but is heavily augmented by extension).

For any of that to be as effective as possible, you need a strong core, and you need strong legs to keep everything up - and kicking? Add more to leg requirements.

On top of all that, you need a decent amount of cardio resilience or it's all just for show.


In essence, MA training needs a much more balanced approach that covers more areas than "muscle beach" type bodybuilding for aesthetics.


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## amateur (Jan 7, 2019)

pdg said:


> You want to pull with your string grip - you need strong biceps and back muscles.



So will chin ups help me build strength for pull ups?


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## jobo (Jan 7, 2019)

amateur said:


> You're wrong. I know plenty of stuff about fitness and martial arts. For instance, I know that training for aesthetical reasons is different from training for martial arts. In the first case, you train all your muscles equally. In the second case, you don't need to bother with every muscle on your body. Triceps/biceps growth will do you little to no good in a fight. That's why I do knuckles push ups, which develop forearms too, so that I gain gripping strength. (The knuckles conditioning benefit is something we can take to my other thread.) Normal push ups target mainly triceps/chest. Why don't you try to reply to my arguments above instead of being like 'I'm done with you'?
> This is a discussion forum. We exchange views until we reach a conclusion. It's not a place where some people are considered authorities and th.


I rest my case , you don't train to make them bigger, you train to make them stronger, every one of them, and how on earth do you think push ups help your grip strength, ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2019)

amateur said:


> So will chin ups help me build strength for pull ups?


Yes, but not as much as doing pull-ups will. So, if you can't do a pull-up, do a chin-up. Once you can do a pull-up, if those are your target, then start doing what pull-ups you can. Lower repetitions tends to build strength faster as a general rule, so if you can only do 3 pull-ups, you're building strength for that activity pretty quickly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> I rest my case , you don't train to make them bigger, you train to make them stronger, every one of them, and how on earth do you think push ups help your grip strength, ?


This is correct (though they may get visibly bigger as a result, that's not the point, and won't always be commensurate with strength).

As for the push-ups building grip strength, the only thing I think fist push-ups will add is stability, as that tasks the stabilizing muscles, not the gripping muscles. Spread-finger push-ups (sometimes called "fingertip push-ups") do stress the gripping muscles...if done properly (otherwise, they just strain joints). And to do those well, you already need strong gripping muscles.


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## Buka (Jan 7, 2019)

amateur said:


> 2. I have considered replacing this with chin ups. I can do 10 of them, as opposed to pull ups, which I can't even do one of. Do you think chin ups will help me build strength for pull ups?
> 
> .



What I’ve found helps the most is to have someone spot you. Grab the bar and have them grab your legs in any kind of grip that’s comfortable for you. As you pull up they help push.

That way you get a full range of motion, strengthening what ever needs strengthening.

Your partner can also vary how much they lift. Small point, but an important one - always end on a complete pull up, not on an unfinished one.


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## jobo (Jan 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> What I’ve found helps the most is to have someone spot you. Grab the bar and have them grab your legs in any kind of grip that’s comfortable for you. As you pull up they help push.
> 
> That way you get a full range of motion, strengthening what ever needs strengthening.
> 
> Your partner can also vary how much they lift. Small point, but an important one - always end on a complete pull up, not on an unfinished one.


yes that will help , but it rather depends on your focus, people doing body weight exercises have a tabdancy to measure their improvements in the number of reps completed, and it is obviously AN improvement,

where as the stenghn gains generally come from the eccentric, putting down element of the movement, and that can be badly neglected, as doing slow controlled descents has the marked effect of reducing the number of reps you can do. so rep progress is very slow, but strength progress is good,

ascas soon as you get a bit stronger your loweringg should get slower so the reps stay much the same.

but you seem much the same with weight lifting, wsynthetic people become obsessed with kg and put silly big weight on, that they have no option but to drop like a stone


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> What I’ve found helps the most is to have someone spot you. Grab the bar and have them grab your legs in any kind of grip that’s comfortable for you. As you pull up they help push.
> 
> That way you get a full range of motion, strengthening what ever needs strengthening.
> 
> Your partner can also vary how much they lift. Small point, but an important one - always end on a complete pull up, not on an unfinished one.


And some gyms have an assisted pull-up machine that uses weight to off-set some of your own weight, providing some of the same benefit (not quite the same, because you can't go full-weight on the resistance stroke). I used one of these when rehabbing my shoulder.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> yes that will help , but it rather depends on your focus, people doing body weight exercises have a tabdancy to measure their improvements in the number of reps completed, and it is obviously AN improvement,
> 
> where as the stenghn gains generally come from the eccentric, putting down element of the movement, and that can be badly neglected, as doing slow controlled descents has the marked effect of reducing the number of reps you can do. so rep progress is very slow, but strength progress is good,
> 
> ...


Most of us fall into that mental trap. I've found the easiest way around it is to do a "max reps" day every once in a while, where I'm just measuring (not trying to build). So I can just lower safely but not especially slowly, and see how many I can get in before fatigue. The rest of the days, my mind will leave me alone and let me focus on doing what I need to improve.


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