# Skepticism about the use of Pressure Points in Karate



## Makalakumu (May 28, 2011)

In another thread, it was expressed that a prominent karate researcher in Hawaii was skeptical about the use of pressure points in karate.  I responded with the following and was curious about starting a new thread about it.



> Pressure points are included in the Bubishi and were included in many of  the old texts written by past masters.  No one in Hawaii teaches the  way that Oyata teaches, to my knowledge, but on the mainland, when I  lived in Minnesota, one of his top students (Mike Cline) lived in my  state and many of his students filtered out from there.
> 
> I had a good discussion with a former member of this board (Robert  Rousselot - a long time student of Oyata sensei) that concurred with I  have learned about the matter.  A lot of what we see as pressure point  techniques are charlatanry.  The real stuff is simple and direct and it  works.
> 
> ...



Does your style of karate use pressure points?  How?  If your style does not, why?


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## Touch Of Death (May 28, 2011)

We don't spend a lot of time on it. 
Sean


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## Bill Mattocks (May 28, 2011)

Nope.


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## punisher73 (May 28, 2011)

Define what you mean by pressure points?  Nerve clusters?  Weak spots on the bone?  Organ shots?  If so then "yes" almost all karate styles use those.

If you mean "pressure points" as in hitting meridians and at certain times etc. then very few do that and was most likely added later.


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## ATACX GYM (May 28, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Define what you mean by pressure points? Nerve clusters? Weak spots on the bone? Organ shots? If so then "yes" almost all karate styles use those.
> 
> If you mean "pressure points" as in hitting meridians and at certain times etc. then very few do that and was most likely added later.


 
This post encapsulates half of my response to the OP.The other half of my response centers around the generally incredibly nonfunctional physical techs alleged to effectively manipulate "pressure points" and their complete absence even in basic sparring,much less their glaring nonexistence in h2h combat for the most part. In other words? Most "nerve point" advocates TALK a great game...but their techs and delivery are pretty much stuff we've seen millions of times already,and frequently both their techs and delivery are poor. I also lol at them dissin sport guys.I'm thinking a guy with a razor sharp jab will also have say a razor sharp finger jab to your eye or say a cold half fist to your throat because finger jabs and half fists are essentially jabs. They use the same delivery system.

I remember a group called SCARS some years ago that promoted nerve strikes to the military and elite groups and I suppose even foreign nationals (if SCARS INSTITUTE does a background check and the foreign nationals passed it) if the client(s) could afford their incredibly high price tag. Since then,one of those guys spun off from Peterson and made his own branch...Target Focus Training. I have never seen these guys' techs live or during sparring,although I HAVE heard them speak and it SOUNDS good. Here are a few SCARSINSTITUTE youtube videos:





 




 
The techs that I see on the second video are NOT extremely impressive and mirror movements from quite a few (faaaar less expensive) martial arts. I note that Jerry Peterson discusses how the brain functions and nuerons and psychosomatics etc. etc. just like Doc does...but I don't see any significant variant in the techs chosen.At BEST,this is what I see from other martial arts claiming to utilize pressure points,and sophisticated science,etc.

Now,Jerry Peterson's former assistant,Tim Larkin,does an explanation and walkthrough of what is essentially "nerve strikes" and that stuff.It looks immediately suspect,because in order to even hope to do ANY of that stuff? You HAVE TO hone your Delivery Systems...like sports guys do.Using science and practice and all that stuff and proper body alignment to achieve the desired result as explosively,efficiently,and devastatingly as possible.So the real difference is in the INTENT to do a specific kind of damage (trauma) but most of the guys I've seen trying to do this stuff lack the skill to actually achieve what they are attempting,and the people WITH the skill to do so (mostly people who train and spar in more "traditional" performance oriented methods) can achieve those results already with the techs and skills they already have.


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## Touch Of Death (May 28, 2011)

If you aren't a bad *** already, knowing nerve stuff won't do you much good.


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## Makalakumu (May 28, 2011)

I like to use pressure points while grappling.  Striking?  That's another matter entirely.


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## tshadowchaser (May 29, 2011)

In our system nerve strikes are  used to the arm and leg.  I do not instruct students on the use of nerve strikes to the head, chest or back.  It takes much practice to be able to deliver  the strikes to the correct location and I have found that some seem not to respond to the strikes at times.
I must say that there are many times I wish Robert Rousselot was still a member, his knowledge was vast in the area of pressure strikes.


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## Bill Mattocks (May 29, 2011)

There are many things I do not understand and cannot therefore comment upon, other than to say we do not do them to any great extent in our dojo.

That said, there are things that I have been shown and have attempted myself that seem interesting to me.  For example, the way a soft block can stop the second punch in a one-two punch combination from being thrown, whereas a hard or bang block will garner the immediate second punch in return.  Or, why it hurts a lot more when you're hit lightly and then very hard in a one-two as opposed to being hit hard both times.

Balance points are interesting too, and tie directly into our Code ("A person's unbalance is the same as a weight.").  Punching a hip might not seem efficacious until one does it and sees the opponent stagger, drop their arms, and open up their entire upper body to strikes. Is that a pressure-point strike?  A one-knuckle punch could, I suppose, also be considered a pressure point strike.

However, it seems to me (and I am no expert but a student) that none of these mean much without having good basics.  Speed, power, endurance, good body mechanics, and experience working the blocks, kicks, and punches.  If one can deliver a good ichi-knuckle punch to a 'pressure point', one ought by rights to be able to deliver a strong tsuki punch to the chin or body at will; I would suggest that would be effective.

If one is looking for mysterious fight-ender that doesn't require getting in there and scrapping, I'm not sure it exists.

Consider the Vulcan Nerve Pinch.  Devastating, yes?  Simple for the experienced practitioner to apply, very effective, very fast.  However, on Star Trek, the fight had to go Spock's way.  Some obliging Klingon had to turn his back on Spock and present his shoulder to be pinched.  Otherwise, Spock had to fight like everybody else, and if he wanted to use his nerve pinch, he had to work to get it.  No freebies.


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2011)

In the style of jujutsu that I study, a student learns everything else and then he learns what a karateka would consider kyusho.  The idea is that the student learns everything else and only that allows them to use pressure points effectively.  

My karate teacher started teaching pressure points at white belt.  He is an LEO and he taught the ones that were easy to use and were effective to his knowledge.  We got more into the esoteric side after black belt.


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## elder999 (May 29, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> *I like to use pressure points while grappling*. Striking? That's another matter entirely.


 
*This*.

Aside from this:



			
				punisher73 said:
			
		

> Define what you mean by pressure points? Nerve clusters? Weak spots on the bone? Organ shots? If so then "yes" almost all karate styles use those.
> 
> If you mean "pressure points" as in hitting meridians and at certain times etc. then very few do that and was most likely added later.


 
pressure points in _karate_ are meant to be used in _karate's grappling._ 

Which is, for many, another bucket of fish altogether.


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2011)

elder999 said:


> *This*.
> 
> Aside from this:
> 
> ...



Hiki-te - the retracting hand.  

The video of Higaonna sensei showing pressure points is very close in, a grappling situation.

The idea behind it, in my opinion, is that you have some kind of control over the person and you deliver the pressure point strike.  On the other hand, I watched Oyata sensei deliver accurate strikes to pressure points from a parry.


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## Sensei Payne (May 31, 2011)

kyusho jitsu is used in every single black belt class at my school. Its always worked in, and works well when executed properly.


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## Zero (May 31, 2011)

My style is goju ryu and we use pressure points when training.  But this, as said above is strikes to softer targets and nerve bundles rather than that "Vulcan pinch" that topples the guy over senseless.  

When grappling, particularly amongst seniors and older practitioners, there can be plenty of "dirty" fighting, ie digging fingers/thumbs into nerves and into the throat, armpit, even eye at times, etc when manouvouring for control to distract or just plain annoy the other guy and make it more uncomfortable or so they loose focus for an instant; again this is just regular fighting. 

One of my favourite pressure point strike combos is a hard cross to the back of the jaw, followed by a swift kick, wearing steel capped boots, to the assailant's ribs when they're on the ground.  This is all the dim mak one needs...


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## Kong Soo Do (May 31, 2011)

One always has to be careful when discussing pressure points.  Too often the images of a '_super-secret-ninja-dim mok-death-touch_' are conjured up.  From that perception, pressure points are more fiction than fact.

However...

Pressure points in the body do exist (if one wants to use that terminology).  Several problems exist in proper use though;  inexperience of the person attempting to apply the pressure.  Some people have a much higher tolerance of pain than others.  Drugs can severely affect the use of a pressure point as can being emotionally disturbed.  A persons vocation can affect it as well.  Try applying a pressure point in the forearm to someone that is a mechanic and has been turning wrenches all their life.  

Having said that, some areas are more effective than others.  The base of the ear, in my experience is hit or miss.  Under the jaw is usually not effective.  The clavicle has  a fairly high % rate, but one better be ready for a fight after using it.  In my experience, the infra orbital has been the highest % point in actual use.  

The actual use though should mainly be for semi-compliant or passive resistance type individuals.


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## Never_A_Reflection (May 31, 2011)

I am a skeptic of most things that do not have scientific backing.  Meridians and pressure points, as it turns out, largely fall on nerve lines and clusters, which means that those areas are going to be more sensitive to being struck or having pressure applied to them.  I do also believe that striking some nerves can cause limbs to go numb and some nerves can cause an overload that will knock a person unconscious.  Beyond that, though, you're getting into mythology in my opinion.

Can striking someone hard enough in the liver or heart areas kill them?  Probably, but you'd have to hit them really hard.  Can you hit someone under the armpit and stop their heart?  I highly doubt it.  I don't believe in chi/ki beyond the functions of nerves, muscles and psychological factors, so that limits the more exotic nerve striking.  We work it occasionally, and my Sensei does have some belief in chi/ki, but most of the pressure point techniques that he shows either work when he does them to me (the most unusual being striking a nerve in my arm to make me lose control of my legs, which I did not believe he could do) or they at least cause more pain than normal when struck, even if they don't have any other pronounced effects.

I will add that I do tend to be more apt to nerve attacks while grappling, but that includes standing grappling, even while striking.  Unfortunately, a lot of karate is difficult to incorporate into sparring because it is structured to defend against untrained attackers or surprise attacks and working them on someone who is actively trying to fight you who has been trained is going to be extremely difficult.  I have managed to hit a nerve or two in sparring, and I have thrown and joint-locked people in sparring as well, but it's HARD.


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## punisher73 (May 31, 2011)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> I am a skeptic of most things that do not have scientific backing. Meridians and pressure points, as it turns out, largely fall on nerve lines and clusters, which means that those areas are going to be more sensitive to being struck or having pressure applied to them. I do also believe that striking some nerves can cause limbs to go numb and some nerves can cause an overload that will knock a person unconscious. Beyond that, though, you're getting into mythology in my opinion.
> 
> Can striking someone hard enough in the liver or heart areas kill them? Probably, but you'd have to hit them really hard. *Can you hit someone under the armpit and stop their heart? I highly doubt it.* I don't believe in chi/ki beyond the functions of nerves, muscles and psychological factors, so that limits the more exotic nerve striking. We work it occasionally, and my Sensei does have some belief in chi/ki, but most of the pressure point techniques that he shows either work when he does them to me (the most unusual being striking a nerve in my arm to make me lose control of my legs, which I did not believe he could do) or they at least cause more pain than normal when struck, even if they don't have any other pronounced effects.
> 
> I will add that I do tend to be more apt to nerve attacks while grappling, but that includes standing grappling, even while striking. Unfortunately, a lot of karate is difficult to incorporate into sparring because it is structured to defend against untrained attackers or surprise attacks and working them on someone who is actively trying to fight you who has been trained is going to be extremely difficult. I have managed to hit a nerve or two in sparring, and I have thrown and joint-locked people in sparring as well, but it's HARD.


 
never heard that it can stop their heart, but there are glands underneath the armpit that when struck are very painful and can cause the gland to act up causing them to swell up to a rather large size.


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## Never_A_Reflection (May 31, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> never heard that it can stop their heart, but there are glands underneath the armpit that when struck are very painful and can cause the gland to act up causing them to swell up to a rather large size.



Oh, yes, it definitely falls under the category of "cause more pain than normal when struck" that I mentioned, and swelling is a very common response to trauma, but I have heard someone somewhere mention that if you strike it in sequence with some other pressure point that you can stop someone's heart.  Things like that bother me


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## WC_lun (May 31, 2011)

Yeah, I study a Chinese system so pressure points are part of the deal.  I think the problem arises when people think pressure points are an "I Win" button.  They aren't.  They are just another tool in a martial artist's arsenal and usually used to get your opponent to do what you want him to do.


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## Nomad (May 31, 2011)

In our class, we learn about pressure points and how to use/access them, but we also keep in mind that they're considered a "bonus" as they can be difficult to access in an uncontrolled situation, and since many people don't or won't react to them as you hope (whether that's because of a lack of sensitivity, or from adrenaline or less natural stimulants that can alter nerve conduction and/or perception is fairly moot).

So we will often aim for them, and hope to use them, but won't count on it being successful (which is why solid technique and basics remain so important).

Unfortunately, much of what is shown in my admittedly limited experience of the more "magical" applications of pressure points are partially reliant on your partner complying, and tend not to work nearly as well against someone actively trying to hurt you.


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## Manny (May 31, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> We don't spend a lot of time on it.
> Sean



Saddly in TKD we don't spend even a little time on it.

Manny


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## Brandon Fisher (May 31, 2011)

We use pressure points and nerve attacks in my dojo however it is the old schooll way of doing nothing mystical about it. Hit a nerve cluster with a well executed strike or block that is timed correctly then you will see a great effect. Especially if the attacker is already off balance which makes a major difference. Keep in mind the off balance does not have to be visable to have an effect. There are a lot of everyday movements we make that change the balance point in our body.


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## punisher73 (Jun 1, 2011)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Oh, yes, it definitely falls under the category of "cause more pain than normal when struck" that I mentioned, and swelling is a very common response to trauma, but I have heard someone somewhere mention that if you strike it in sequence with some other pressure point that you can stop someone's heart. Things like that bother me


 
thanks for the clarification.  I agree with that as well.

Hit three points in a sequence to initiate the self destruct mechanism   I remember seeing George Dillman showing a destruct sequence one time and he was actually using his big toe to push a point on the person's foot while doing the other two points.  Really?  How often are you attacked and both of you have bare feet?  Let alone getting close enough to hold the point with your toe and not have him move his foot or punch you in the face.


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## Manny (Jun 1, 2011)

I know some (very few) presure points, the one I use the most is below the ear, some time doing some kind of grapling I could not take off me a young stud so I drove a nuckle to the spot below the ear, and this was enough. Another presure point I know is below the nose, other below the eye sockets.

It's a plus to know some presure points and how to atack them efectively.

Manny


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## Nomad (Jun 1, 2011)

Beware the Five Point Palm Exploding Heart Technique.

No can resist.


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## BigRich (Jun 7, 2011)

We use them to some extent but only at more advanced levels.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 10, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> Yeah, I study a Chinese system so pressure points are part of the deal. I think the problem arises when people think pressure points are an "I Win" button. They aren't. They are just another tool in a martial artist's arsenal and usually used to get your opponent to do what you want him to do.


 

This is very true...you can't just train in pressure points and expect to win confrontations...you have to have proper body positioning and hand placement...and it takes a lot of Practice. 

Must become a WELL ROUNDED practitioner.


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## Grenadier (Jun 10, 2011)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> I will add that I do tend to be more apt to nerve attacks while grappling, but that includes standing grappling, even while striking. Unfortunately, a lot of karate is difficult to incorporate into sparring because it is structured to defend against untrained attackers or surprise attacks and working them on someone who is actively trying to fight you who has been trained is going to be extremely difficult. I have managed to hit a nerve or two in sparring, and I have thrown and joint-locked people in sparring as well, but it's HARD.


 
Also, in a life or death scenario, there's going to be adrenaline rushing through your body, and trying to aim for small pressure points in those situations is going to be extremely difficult, at best.


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## punisher73 (Jun 10, 2011)

Nomad said:


> In our class, we learn about pressure points and how to use/access them, but we also keep in mind that they're considered a "bonus" as they can be difficult to access in an uncontrolled situation, and since many people don't or won't react to them as you hope (whether that's because of a lack of sensitivity, or from adrenaline or less natural stimulants that can alter nerve conduction and/or perception is fairly moot).
> 
> So we will often aim for them, and hope to use them, but won't count on it being successful (which is why solid technique and basics remain so important).
> 
> Unfortunately, much of what is shown in my admittedly limited experience of the more "magical" applications of pressure points are partially reliant on your partner complying, and tend not to work nearly as well against someone actively trying to hurt you.


 
When I instruct our PPCT classes, which have a pressure point component to it.  I have to make sure that they understand the time/place to use them.  For the most part, they are used with "touch pressure" for low levels of resistance.  For higher levels of aggression, the targets are clusters of nerves on the muscle which are easy to get to and can cause the muscle to dysfunction (either go numb, or charley horse effect).

Even THEN, I tell them to think about pressure points for normal people as a bell curve (not taking into account, adrenaline, drugs etc.)  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




For every 100 people, they will fall on this curve.  If we look about 68% of the public will have a response to the pressure point.  About 15.8% will have an "over" response to a pressure point, and at the other end 15.8% will have little to no response to the pressure point. So pressure points are effective in around 83% of the population, but as has been pointed out drugs and adrenaline will effect that number.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jul 24, 2011)

On and off I end up learning pressure points. When I am teaching I teach the basic pressure points instead of the advance ones, where certain buttons of the human body can be hard to target. So it's better to learn some pressure points than none at all. I end up learning pressure points in self-defense and flow drills to understand where and why we hit here and there.


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## chinto (Jul 29, 2011)

ok, a lot of them are kinda bonus points.  in that if you can cause some pain compliance with some one using them, and you can at times, great.  But the 'pressure points ' also cover things like the solar plexus and vagus nerve in the neck and such that are large unwavering points. 
also many would consider some of the lethal points as pressure points I guess.    Yes they work to a point, but if its for keeps... keep it simple, go for maximum damage, and make sure you walk away.

but they do work and some are much more dependable then others.  like the person before me said, better to learn some then none at all.


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