# Eye jabs - an evil move?



## thescottishdude (Apr 18, 2006)

I noticed that alot of martial artists must not have any principles when it comes to learning and using eye jabs.

In my opinion, you should never use eye jabs, EVER! They're completely evil. You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.

I'm not against the teaching of them, as they are a part of martial arts. I just don't think anyone should condone or hype up their use in fights (unlike the last martial arts nesletter I just read).

Anyone else agree? Surely you should never do something like that in a fist fight unless your attacker has a kinfe or a gun and you get an oppertunity?


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## beau_safken (Apr 18, 2006)

Try all the eye jabs you want on me...Defense is easy.  Extend hand in front of face...  Learned it from the 3 stooges bud.

There is one move called opening the gate....  Stick finger in eye, hook and pull the eye out.  As its dangling on the cheek little slap on the face to complete the opening of the gate. 

Not cool in sparring but you dont go into battle with a wiffle ball bat....  Good to know but not really all the useful in a general sense.


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## Sam (Apr 18, 2006)

It depends on the situation. If someone is trying to rape me they will be lucky if the worst that happens to them is I shove my thumbs into their eyes.

I would be dissapointed in myself if such a man could ever walk properly or reproduce again.


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## scottcatchot (Apr 18, 2006)

I feel in a real self defense situation I see no problem using an eye jab. It is an effect move that greatly distracts the opponent and makes an opening for a straight blast, takedown, many possibilities. As for the moral delima of blinding someone. Since I don't go looking for trouible and the situation I would be using it in is self preservation, Thats what the attacker gets for messing with me. I don't emphasis continuing to beat on the guy needlessly, but do what ever it takes. I especially am fond of a nice nuckle jab to the throat as opposed to the eye jab, but then that has its own implications.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 18, 2006)

For an ego driven mutual fist fight? Way over the top. Fighting for your life? Fair tactic imo.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 18, 2006)

I tend to agree, many martial artists seem to quick to want to resort to escalating.  If someone is punching me, I'll punch back.  If they are winning I'll get beat up, if I am winning I'll get less beat up.

But if they are winning and I escalate things, I imagine I will end up in worse shape.

Of course if they escalate things to that level it is a different matter.


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## thescottishdude (Apr 18, 2006)

I agree with using them in situations like that, rape or an armed aggressor. But what I'm getting at is the way alot of instructors make students practise them so they can be used in real fights. i think its something you should know about but never use.

If you're in a rape situation then if you've been trained right you shouldn't think about using eye jabs you'd have a good enough self defense moves anyway.

Sometimes you've got to take the moral high ground and be the better person.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.
> 
> Surely you should never do something like that in a fist fight unless your attacker has a kinfe or a gun and you get an oppertunity?


 
I think you just answered your own question.  Eye jabs are extreme techniques, meant only for extreme circumstances. 

Getting bullied in a bar?  Eye strikes are not the answer.

Getting assualted with a weapon, getting raped, getting the life beaten out of you?  Eye jabs might be appropriate.


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## Sam (Apr 18, 2006)

is a rape situation not a "real" fight?
I think eye jabs is a perfectly fine self defense move.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> If you're in a rape situation then if you've been trained right you shouldn't think about using eye jabs you'd have a good enough self defense moves anyway.
> 
> Sometimes you've got to take the moral high ground and be the better person.


 
A rape situation is not the time or place to take the moral high ground.  If you are being raped, anything and everything is fair game.  If you've been trained right, then you know that if you are being raped, eye gouges are good self defense moves.


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## thescottishdude (Apr 18, 2006)

I still don't think you should be extensivlytrained in them, yes yo should know what they are and how to use them but they shouldn't really be taught as moves you'd likly use.

punching, kicking, wrestling, arm locks etc are more than effective in a rape situation or any fight really.


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## scottcatchot (Apr 18, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> Sometimes you've got to take the moral high ground and be the better person.


 
There is nothing immoral about defending yourself. I do understand what you are saying in regards to escalating. By law it must be taken into consideration of what is reasonable force. Basically do what you must to stop the attack, once it is stopped or you can get away, then do not continue to fight.  I personally think techniques are just techniques, neither moral or immoral but the context in which they are used determines the morality of having used the technique


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## DavidCC (Apr 18, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> For an ego driven mutual fist fight? Way over the top. Fighting for your life? Fair tactic imo.


 
OMG I actually agree with RoninPimp.  

"Even a broken clock is right twice a day" LOL


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## Flatlander (Apr 18, 2006)

If you're getting into fist fights and using martial art skills, you've already gotten yourself into a moral dilemma.  We're I your teacher, I'd kick you out of class.  There is no place in an ego driven fist fight for a martial art student.  If you can't keep your ego in check, you've got some growing up to do before your training should commence.

That's the stance I'm taking on the subject.

From my point of view, the eye jab is just another tool, to be used if the situation presents itself.


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## scottcatchot (Apr 18, 2006)

punching, kicking, wrestling, arm locks etc are more than effective in a rape situation or any fight really.[/quote]

What if the person is armed and you are not, what if you are convinced the person is trying to kill you? I just don't think you should label a technique as bad or immoral or to elliminate it from being when there may come a time it is your best way to survive. It is impossible to know what every possible situation  could bring to generalize and say that the above are MORE than effective in any fight


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## thescottishdude (Apr 18, 2006)

hey, I'm glad I started such a decent thread here 

I just got annoyed at what I was readin on the net with alot of martial artists talking about how to imporve your eye jabs and how best to damage your opponents.


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Hello, Anytime you hit someone...this can be an evil move.   Some techniques are more hurtful than others.  

The eyes are one of the most effective techniques to end a fight and to escape.  Raking the eyes will not cause long lasting damages.  Eye gouges...Um?...could be it the cords are rip out too.

It is possible to thumb someone eyes out and put it back in....most times it will work again.

If you are not training for this,rip,gouge...too bad...cause lots of other people do train for this!

Every year people are kill just by being push down. (end up  hitting  their heads on the pavement,curves,or corner of something)....is this evil too "the push"

What about thoat strikes...is this bad too....?

If you find eye strikes evil? ...you are in the wrong business here...real fighting is anything goes, none stop hitting, weapons,stones and anything goes,kinves,guns,pipes can be use.....against you....

Depending on the sitution..will depend on what you need to do to end the confrontations. NO Rules in street fights...fight back or get the hell kick out of you (could happen anyway if you fight back).

Striking the eyes...one of the most effective techniques to use!!! ...All those in flavor say:  EYE! .......Aloha


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I still don't think you should be extensivlytrained in them, yes yo should know what they are and how to use them but they shouldn't really be taught as moves you'd likly use.
> 
> punching, kicking, wrestling, arm locks etc are more than effective in a rape situation or any fight really.


 
If you do not practice them(eye strikes)...then you will not remember them...or use them...and when the time comes to save your life? TOO LATE!  In our Kempo techniques, almost all  our attacks involves eye rips/strikes/pokes...somewhere in the process of striking you...!

Remember this: NO matter how big or strong the attacter is? or arm w/ weapons...if you are in reach...ripping, poking the eyes do not require strenght,lots of practice, or  be Black belt to use it!  (ANYONE CAN DO THIS)

When someone attack you (they are the evil ones)....eye strikes..is letting the other person see you in a different way....Aloha


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Hello, Groin strikes...now this is evil?  .....owwooo..!   Your eyes go cuckoo, body drops, defendless, and PAIN! ....name me another place that hurt this much like a groin strike?  ....Aloha


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## Darksoul (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, as a former Mantis student, I'm aware of some of the techniques in the style that are meant to do serious damage, eye jabs the least among them. Why are they there? As a martial art, Mantis is about defeating your opponent, though in the past that would have likely meant life or death situation. Which is my point; it depends on the situation. If you want to live and/or survive a situation, you'll do what is necessary. Of course, if you're trained enough to avoid such moves and can subdue your opponent without serious injury, than you should proceed in said manner.

A---)


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## Ceicei (Apr 18, 2006)

Well, hopefully, a martial artist will gain enough skill in their respective art to determine what level of force to use.  The level should be sufficient to stop the threat.  If the threat is life-threatening and the situation warrants the need for eye gouges, then so be it.  

There is a time and a place for fly swatters and sledge-hammers.

- Ceicei


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## still learning (Apr 18, 2006)

Hello, In the "EYES" of the law...as martial artist we are suppose to do minimum to end any confrontations.  Anything beyond that could cost us some jail time/law suit.

No two attacks on us will be the same....our reactions will be base on what we train for.  What it takes to end the fights will all differ....some people can take alot hits and kicks before going down?  

A rip or poke to the eyes may not end the attacks on you..but may provide some time to do the next moves to end the conflict.

Keep an open eye on this.....Aloha


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 18, 2006)

I agree with Flatlander, we shouldn't be getting in "fights". 

As to whether or not it's evil, is a hammer evil? It's just another tool like a gun, knife, kick, or armbar.  Used approprately, it's wonderful.

Jeff


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## Hand Sword (Apr 18, 2006)

I look at eye jabs as just one of many tools we are taught. A chop to the throat is evil too. All the strikes are done with bad intentions for real, so one could say they are all evil. Keep them in the arsenal, and use them when the situation calls for it.


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## MJS (Apr 18, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I noticed that alot of martial artists must not have any principles when it comes to learning and using eye jabs.
> 
> In my opinion, you should never use eye jabs, EVER! They're completely evil. You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.


 
IMHO, the amount of force you're using should equal what they're doing. If someone simply pushes you, I can't justify an arm break. Now, if they're coming at you with a knife, then yes, I can see that. This is a good reference as to what I'm talking about.

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/rbma/use_of_force.html



> I'm not against the teaching of them, as they are a part of martial arts. I just don't think anyone should condone or hype up their use in fights (unlike the last martial arts nesletter I just read).
> 
> Anyone else agree? Surely you should never do something like that in a fist fight unless your attacker has a kinfe or a gun and you get an oppertunity?


 
Keep in mind that there are other things besides eye jabs, that we have in our arsenal, that can be just as brutal. Nothing wrong with training these areas, but as I said above, knowing when to use them is important.




> I still don't think you should be extensivlytrained in them, yes yo should know what they are and how to use them but they shouldn't really be taught as moves you'd likly use.


 
Why not?



> punching, kicking, wrestling, arm locks etc are more than effective in a rape situation or any fight really


 
Punching: sure
Kicking: sure
Wrestling: I wouldn't suggest trying to submit the person, but instead, getting an escape from the ground, get back to your feet, and leave the area.
Arm locks: Keep in mind, the more difficult the move, unless the person trains it extensively, it'll be hard for them to apply. Most SD courses for women, should be geared to simple, effective moves, not something too indepth. 

Mike


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## Hand Sword (Apr 19, 2006)

Maybe we should look at it like this: Martial Artists do what they do for self defense purposes. In those terms, anything goes, as your life is on the line.


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## bushidomartialarts (Apr 19, 2006)

i say go for it.

if you get into a fight with somebody, do everything you can to kill them.  

if you're not comfortable using every weapon at your disposal to destroy that person, then you shouldn't be in a fight.  you should be talking, or drinking with them, or leaving.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 19, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Try all the eye jabs you want on me...Defense is easy. Extend hand in front of face... Learned it from the 3 stooges bud.
> 
> There is one move called opening the gate.... Stick finger in eye, hook and pull the eye out. As its dangling on the cheek little slap on the face to complete the opening of the gate.
> 
> Not cool in sparring but you dont go into battle with a wiffle ball bat.... Good to know but not really all the useful in a general sense.




I used it for control issue with people. Now of course for those who do not feel pain for the drug of choice they are on, then it does nothing for control. You have to do other techniques.


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## still learning (Apr 19, 2006)

Hello. If going for the eye attacks is evil?  What is not consider evil?

You must believe there is something like a fair fight?  What is it?

The people I know...will pound you,kick,stomp you on the ground, non-stop, use anything around them to continune the attack..till you cannot move.

Getting into a real street fight...the other person goal is to hurt you as much as he can.....because if you can still stand back up...he will attack you....again...very rare these guys give up.

There are people out there who fight like this...and experience at it.

If you try to fight fair (you style)....against most street fighters who will do/use anything to win(till you are out).....

Those with strong princples...DO NOT GET INTO FIGHTS...because they learn..awareness, trust there instincts not to be in a dangerous place. and will avoid getting into a fight (Verbal Judo).

and if they do...they want to end it as quickly as posssible....whatever it takes....

I am not trying to be disagreeable here....just trying to let you know..there is NO SUCH THING AS A FAIR FIGHT.  Eyes are very good tarkets.   and is not an evil strike....Intentional Killing is evil..Aloha

Self-defense techniqiue...can kill....cause permanent damages...most of us want to avoid any fights... if we get into one,do as little harm as possible...  In life and deaths situtions...?   ...Aloha


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## KenpoTex (Apr 19, 2006)

Okay, so what I'm hearing is that not only are eye jabs/gouges evil, they're also less effective than punches, kicks, and grappling moves?  I'm gonna call bulls*** on this one...  

No, attacks to vital targets (eyes, throat, knees, groin, etc.) should not be used in "fights."  However, as others have said, you shouldn't be getting into fights (mutual combat between idiots with ego problems).  Unless you work in a profession that makes physical confrontations more common (LEO, bouncer, security, etc.) if you get into a lot of fights you need to examine your behavior/conduct and figure out what needs to change so that you _don't_ get into a lot of fights.

Now, back to the issue of self-defense.  If you are targeted as the victim of a violent crime (rape, robbery, kidnapping, etc.) you do whatever it takes to make sure that you're the one that walks away.  It doesn't matter if that "whatever" includes gouging their eyes, using a weapon, or tearing their throat out with your teeth if need be.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 19, 2006)

There are no evil moves, just evil people!


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## thescottishdude (Apr 19, 2006)

well, if I'm ever fighting you lot I'm wearing protetive googles


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## KenpoTex (Apr 19, 2006)

So, do you have any reasons other than personal bias as to why attacking the eyes is less effective or inadvisable?  You've made some pretty strong statements regarding the use of eye attacks but have yet to give any solid reasons for why they shouldn't be used (other than the questionable "moral" issue).

Let's talk a little about the effectiveness of eye jabs/gouges.  First, if someone gave you the choice of getting punched in the jaw at full force or of having them grab you by the sides of the head and jam one or both of their thumbs into your eyes, which would you choose?  I kinda doubt that anyone would honestly choose to be blinded because someone put their fingers, up to the joints, in their eye.  But hey, that's just me.

Second, it is instinctive for humans to protect their eyes.  If you hit someone in the eye, even accidently, what happens?  If you're like anyone I've ever seen, myself included, your eyes slam shut, your hands instinctively come up to shield your eyes against further damage, and for that instant, you forget about anything except protecting your eyes.  Eye attacks may or may not end the struggle instantly (and they have a good chance of doing just that) but they will distract, cause pain, and create an opening for something else.


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## Grenadier (Apr 19, 2006)

No such thing as an evil technique.  Rather, it's the intent behind the technique, that can be considered "good" or "evil."  

For example, if someone is having a MMA-style match, and tries to fingerpoke the other guy in the eye so that he can partially blind him, then that's certainly an "evil" intent.  The fight is controlled, and considered sport / fair competition, and such things do not belong there.  The goal of each fighter is to put the other guy down or to make him submit, but that's it.  

If someone is fighting for his life, where an attacker (or multiple attackers) has the intent to criminally cause bodily harm, then using a poke to the eyes is fair game, as far as I am concerned.  If someone shows a disregard for my well-being in a criminal manner, then I will extend the same "courtesy" and use the best methods available to stop him.  If this means using one knuckle strikes to the throat, so be it.  If this means using my trusty Spyderco knife, then so be it.  If it means using firearms, then that's what I'll do in order to survive the encounter.

Could there be consequences of such actions?  Certainly.  In this day and age, the bad guy (or his family) will probably try to take me to court.  Still, I'll be happy at having to go to court, over not being alive to face the music.  The old adage of "It is better to be judged by twelve, than to be carried by six" rings ever so true.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 19, 2006)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Okay, so what I'm hearing is that not only are eye jabs/gouges evil, they're also less effective than punches, kicks, and grappling moves? I'm gonna call bulls*** on this one...
> 
> No, attacks to vital targets (eyes, throat, knees, groin, etc.) should not be used in "fights." However, as others have said, you shouldn't be getting into fights (mutual combat between idiots with ego problems). Unless you work in a profession that makes physical confrontations more common (LEO, bouncer, security, etc.) if you get into a lot of fights you need to examine your behavior/conduct and figure out what needs to change so that you _don't_ get into a lot of fights.
> 
> Now, back to the issue of self-defense. If you are targeted as the victim of a violent crime (rape, robbery, kidnapping, etc.) you do whatever it takes to make sure that you're the one that walks away. It doesn't matter if that "whatever" includes gouging their eyes, using a weapon, or tearing their throat out with your teeth if need be.


 

I did not mean to imply that Eye Gouges were not effective or destructive. Just not the best under certain conditions for people who feel no pain for control. It still destroys their eye.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 19, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I did not mean to imply that Eye Gouges were not effective or destructive. Just not the best under certain conditions for people who feel no pain for control. It still destroys their eye.


my post wasn't directed at you.  I understand your point that they may not always work.  If there was one magic technique that worked all the time, we'd all be wasting our time spending years in training.  My point was just that in most situations, attacking the eyes can be extrememly effective.


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## James Patrick (Apr 19, 2006)

I haven't read all the replies yet, but I can't believe that this is open for debate!

Eye gauges are incredably effective; so much so that they are considered lethal force here is Michigan (I am pretty sure, but I will double check). And, if someone has made the conscious decision to hurt you, and your life hangs in the balance, then I think all "morality" is out the window. Why anyone would advocate not practicing or doing this life saving tool is beyond my comprehension!

James


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## fireman00 (Apr 19, 2006)

If I was unable to walk/ talk my way out of a confrontation that someone else started and they escalated to the point I felt in danger then its open season... thumb/ fingers to the eye, knee to groin or grab ahold of the nose or lips with my teeth I'd do what it takes to end things quickly and in my favor.


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## thescottishdude (Apr 19, 2006)

I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial. 

essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them. 

doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 19, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial.
> 
> essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them.
> 
> doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.



Why would you be getting into "a simple fist fight" in the first place?  If I'm attacked, I have to assume for my own safety that they are serious about doing me bodily harm.  If you want to fight, go box or do some nhb fighting in the ring.

Jeff


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## MJS (Apr 19, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial.
> 
> essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them.
> 
> doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.


 
I think that you need to go back and re-read all of the posts from the beginning.  I have not seen anyone advocate using them unless the situation warranted it.  A simple fight, no I would not use an eye jab.  A life and death situation, absolutely!

Again, please go and re-read the threads.

Mike


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## Robert Lee (Apr 19, 2006)

If and when you fight you have a choice of what you need or may have to do. Eye pokes rakes gouges are are part of training. And should be used as needed. Not to just put an eye out A flick to the eye will cause it to sting and water reducing the vision and that will not cause as much harm to a eye. But can help lead to a finish or escape which agin is your choice. Now to take a eye. And the person files charges you will be going to court and if proved you were not in impending danger that would call for exsessive force you would be charged and have to pay out probaly a large settlement. So flicks rakes would be a first option. Now relize this gives the other person the idea to do the same to you. Any fight what is done by you is your choice of action. So be wise on needs.


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## still learning (Apr 19, 2006)

Hello, Not all "EYE" attacks leads to permament blindness...so do throat strikes do not lead to permamet damages, and knees strikes leads to permament knees damages... and so on.

If you can temporany blind a person with a rip,poke..or throw sand,dirt,purse, into your eyes...doing this is smart and to your advantage....not evil? Especially if you are only trying to defend yourself from the attacker.

To gouge someone eyes out...Um? it maybe the only way to save your life...(remember ANYONE CAN DO THIS) no special training,extra strenght needed, or special skills...just the determintion to do it. (especially if the other person is over powering and brutal....(rape situtions,aductions),and so on...

Do you know most of the lethal strikes to end a fight quickly?  not only there life..but limbs too...?  all can be consider evil?  

Training to fight is not a playful tool...it is not a game... people lives are at risk....if attack by a street fighter/gang..it is KILL or BE KILLED...

This was told to me along ago from my Sensi: ..."When two Black belts fight(each know each other ranks)...this means both know how to KILL."."the fight will not be nice....you fight to KILL."  ..".because he knows this too...."

If you still believe "eye" attacks are evil and not to be use?  ...Wake-up..and  SEE what others do...SEE for yourself...One day you may SEE  yourself using this "eye" attacks....?  C..C..C...than you make the other guy not C and C..two I's here....(two eye's)...be SEEing you...Aloha


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## Ric Flair (Apr 19, 2006)

In a life and death situation (say in a secluded alley with more than 2 guys or in a sexual assault situation)

If your attacker is bigger than you, stronger than you, and even faster 
than you...  and all the hits you do to his body and face do not amount to much, and the nuts and throat are not available...

and the only thing you feel open are his eyes, why not?!  Go for it!  I'm sure in that situation you would not be acting like Mr. Rogers and being ultra considerate for the person(s) trying to take your life away.  

If you are trained and conditioned properly, you most likely will not even have a second thought since your body will be the thing thats talking for you.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 19, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial.
> 
> *essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them. *
> 
> doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.


First, as others have said several times in this thread, we're NOT talking about a "simple fist fight." We're talking about a survival situation. Second, if I reach the point where I feel that it's necessary to use methods that are considered "deadly force" techniques (attacking the eyes, throat, joints, etc.) it's either going to be in conjunction with, or because I can't at that moment access one of my weapons. Chances of the guy "moving on and putting the situation behind them" are not very good at this point.

Because of your insistence on going back to the "simple fight" thing, I'm begining to think that you must get into a lot of fights. Either that or you just don't understand the distinction between a fight and a self-defense situation.


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## Grenadier (Apr 19, 2006)

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> ...


 
Given your user name, I would think that you would be entirely in favor of eye pokes!


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## Hand Sword (Apr 19, 2006)

"woooooooo !"


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## rompida (Apr 20, 2006)

Hmmm.........first thing I have to ask is why is a martial artist (or anyone for that matter) getting into an "ego fight" in the first place?  Sounds like insecurity to me.  I take the moral high ground by walking away and avoiding a physical confrontation when possible.    

Beyond that.... eyes are fair game for me.  Its one of the first things I teach to adults in SD classes.  A person who is being attacked, and is not in an ego fight should use the force necessary to remove themselves from danger.  Would a light eye jab do that?  I think so, it is a nice setup for a punch, throw, kick, or just turning to run away.  If being raped, I tell the women to pull his damn eyes out of his head.  How do you know a rapist won't try to kill you when he's done?  Sorry if this rings your moral high ground bell, but I also teach throat jabs/punches, groin kicks/grabs, and throwing chairs.  When you start fighting fair you have started losing. 

I think Hock says it best..."Cheat in the beginning, cheat in the end, and cheat in the middle".


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## Henderson (Apr 20, 2006)

I think I agree with the general concensus on this one.

Eye gouges are very effective, and a last resort tactic.


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## still learning (Apr 20, 2006)

Hello, Base on the posts above: The "EYES" have it..

For removal: only one is needed

For protection: cover each eye with each hand, or one arm
-----------------
A man selling a horse "This horse NO look to good"  the other guy says.."this horse is blind"  ...the man says..I told you "this horse no look to good" 
----------------

This forums is about sharing knowledge, exchanging opinions and thoughts, each of us will form his own ideas of right and wrong,good or bad and so on. Evil is a bad word in my book...there are lots of evil people around us all the time...good to close the book on them....Aloha


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## fireman00 (Apr 20, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I'd call blinding someone a serious moral dillema, its certinly not trivial.
> 
> essentially, you're taking away their oppertunity to move on from the situation and put it behind them.
> 
> doing that to someone in a simple fist fight is not excusable.


 
How are you/ I supposed to know that a "simple fist fight" will stay that way?  How do you know that the individual will not turn into 2 or 3 that will have to be dealt with.

I've read/ heard about people being killed or become brain damaged because they were punched, fell and hit their noggin on cement/ tarmac/ rock/ car bumper. 

End if fast - THEY, not you, THEY started the issue.


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## akatrk (Apr 20, 2006)

> In my opinion, you should never use eye jabs, EVER! They're completely evil. You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.


 
I do understand your dilemma in using a finger jab to the eyes. Unfortunately, we are living in a world where fighting fair is a thing of the past. I once witnessed a fight between two women where one woman took the other woman's face and started scraping it against the concrete like a cheese grater.


If given the choice of using an eye jab and leaving the scene or not using it and taking a chance of getting hurt, self-preservation wins.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 20, 2006)

life and death or my going to the hospital from multiple armed attackers  yep i'll use them. Getting beaten in a one on one  no I'll lose or win without them


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## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Hold no weapon dishonorable, I say. Use what's needed.


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## thescottishdude (Apr 21, 2006)

I'm laughing my *** off at a comment I got in my reutation bar about this thread 

"Quite the most naieve thread I've ever read"

Well, I guess I have a little more faith in people than that guy obviously does. He's being very naieve calling someone who he's neever met naieve  Ironic? ha ha ha


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## Kensai (Apr 22, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I noticed that alot of martial artists must not have any principles when it comes to learning and using eye jabs.
> 
> In my opinion, you should never use eye jabs, EVER! They're completely evil. You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.
> 
> ...


 
I agree. To an extent. Obviously circumstances would dictate the response, if it was a "Queensbury rules" brawl, then yeah, gouging the other guys eyes out is harsh, however, if weapons are involved, or someone greatly stronger than you, and you feel as though your life is on the line, if it's my life, or his eyes, sorry mate, but he's gonna be needing a trip to the opticians.


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## Jimi (Apr 22, 2006)

Eye jabs are no more evil than the intent of the assailant initiating the confrontation. Jabbing the eyes of a "COMPETITOR" is evil no matter what the sporting competition. Someone breaking into your home is no FIST FIGHT. Eye jabs, "DON'T START NONE, WON'T BE NONE!"


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## Ric Flair (Apr 22, 2006)

Though the Nature Boy is not technically the best skilled fighter around, I'd have to say he was one of the most clever "wrestler'" in entertainment wrestling.  THis man had it all, eye pokes/rakes, ball punches, slaps, etc lol 

Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!


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## Marginal (Apr 23, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> If going for the eye attacks is evil? What is not consider evil?


 
You're right. Best to carry a gun and shoot anyone who bumps into you. Anything less decays into a morass of situational relativism. If you're not willing to shoot someone in the head for a dirty look, then you're not willing to do anything at all. Ever.


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## still learning (Apr 23, 2006)

Marginal said:
			
		

> You're right. Best to carry a gun and shoot anyone who bumps into you. Anything less decays into a morass of situational relativism. If you're not willing to shoot someone in the head for a dirty look, then you're not willing to do anything at all. Ever.


 
Hello, Good idea..the world is too crowded....this may help....

In the martial arts...your judgement of the use of techniques to use..will be your choice to end the confrontations/the fight.

We are taught several levels of use: Not to hurt,but stop or end the fight quickly, two may need more damages (vitals)to attacker, three take it all the way (kill).  In our Kempo - escape,control,or destroy methods is the terms we use to discribe the degrees of attack. Some people may need more than others here....

Eye attacks...do work..it will not blind you..just the other guy for awhile...same as striking to body...intent is not to kill? ..just hurt them..

rakes,poke, is one thing...gouges/takeing the eye out..something else here? 

I heard stories of American soldiers(Vietnam) who capture the "enemy" and would remove one eye to make them talk...Use thumb scoop from nose side,dig and pull out. Most do talk after this...if they do not..then removing the other eye will not work.   

On the human body...taking their eyes out of the fight...(rakes,pokes)...will give you more advantages than any other part...most people will see this ......Aloha


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## still learning (Apr 23, 2006)

Marginal said:
			
		

> You're right. Best to carry a gun and shoot anyone who bumps into you. Anything less decays into a morass of situational relativism. If you're not willing to shoot someone in the head for a dirty look, then you're not willing to do anything at all. Ever.


 
Hello, Good idea..the world is too crowded....this may help....

In the martial arts...your judgement of the use of techniques to use..will be your choice to end the confrontations/the fight.

We are taught several levels of use: Not to hurt,but stop or end the fight quickly, two may need more damages (vitals)to attacker, three take it all the way (kill). In our Kempo - escape,control,or destroy methods is the terms we use to discribe the degrees of attack. Some people may need more than others here....

Eye attacks...do work..it will not blind you..just the other guy for awhile...same as striking to body...intent is not to kill? ..just hurt them..

rakes,poke, is one thing...gouges/takeing the eye out..something else here? 

I heard stories of American soldiers(Vietnam) who capture the "enemy" and would remove one eye to make them talk...Use thumb scoop from nose side,dig and pull out. Most do talk after this...if they do not..then removing the other eye will not work. 

On the human body...taking their eyes out of the fight...(rakes,pokes)...will give you more advantages than any other part...most people will see this ......Aloha


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## Spider (Apr 23, 2006)

At my karite school Unlimited Success Martial Arts in Allen, Texas we do if they have glasses you do a tiger claw and then you pok the guy or girls eye balls out and if they don't have glasses then you pok there eye balls out.



                                   The advice,
                                      Spider


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## still learning (Apr 23, 2006)

Hello, There are many ways to use the hands for raking? ..the tiger claws (fingers  in a-circle), the dragon claws (fingers more in a half-moon shape-fingers up side and thumb down side ...the two finger rake,, Ed Parker is seen in most of his pictures. (index and middle fingers) raking sideways,back and forth and very fast.

Study this....  ..watch out for people with long nails...color ones too...Elbows in the eye sockets..UM?  ...Aloha


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## thescottishdude (Apr 23, 2006)

the tiger claw is better used for ttacking the bones between your shoulders and your eck to hit and then grip and snap them. That's much more effective than raking which may or may not work anyway. And makes you look like a big girl to onlookers


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## still learning (Apr 23, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> the tiger claw is better used for ttacking the bones between your shoulders and your eck to hit and then grip and snap them. That's much more effective than raking which may or may not work anyway. And makes you look like a big girl to onlookers


 
Hello, I rather BITE the neck instead....and still rake the eyes...just playing here....Aloha    ...(do you mean collar bone?)


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## Ross (Apr 27, 2006)

I think that everyone has really covered the point but it does open up some interesting questions - mainly, what is considered excessive force? 

I dont know about some of you guys, but poking someone's eye out (for example) will result in me being put into prison on the grounds of GBH or ABH. 

What I'm saying is that every action that you do will have a consequence. Not just on yourself but your family, friends and lives. We all train for the moment, but how many of us really and truthfully would be happy if one stupid attack by someone resulted you looking up after "defending yourself" and there is a mangled body lying dead in front of you? Someone throwing a drunken punch at you and you blind them for life? I'm not sure I could live with that.

Also, the reason why we all train in martial arts is so that we dont have to resort to such a neanderthal technique. Any one can strike to the eye without any training, a trained martial artist shouldn't have to rely on this sledgehammer approach. I would agree that in a rape situation it could possibly be justified but this attack to a very soft tissue is an extreme last resort. However, I might also point out that to try and teach someone (for example in a self defense class), to physically push your fingers into someone's eyes is easier said than done. 

Every one is very quick to say "I'd do this and that to someone if they tried it on with me". But I would suggest that you think about the consequences of your actions before you are in that situation. And that begins in the dojo.


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## fightingfat (Apr 27, 2006)

I think eye strikes might be seen as more acceptable for a woman to use against an aggressive male. As a bloke, it has to be a last resort!


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## Zoran (Apr 27, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> the tiger claw is better used for ttacking the bones between your shoulders and your eck to hit and then grip and snap them. That's much more effective than raking which may or may not work anyway. *And makes you look like a big girl to onlookers*



Looks like we got to the core of why you may think eye jabs a evil. :rofl:


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## still learning (Apr 28, 2006)

Hello, When one cannot see....the other person will have the advantage.

Eye jabs are not evil ...just another technique...you do not have to remove the eyes or destroy them.  Jab to blind them temporarily.

All martial arts techniques can be consider evil?  ...purpose is to hurt the other person or end his time with us. Joint locks hurts too.

Seeing is believing...when you SEE the chance...strike the eyes...and SEE how it works...later you will SEE the results..and SEE, I told you. 

"What did one eye say to the other eye?"  between you and me...something smells!

See's candies are my flavorites...Aloha 

PS: Some people will not SEE this as we do? That is OK...


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## bobster_ice (Apr 28, 2006)

thescottishdude said:
			
		

> I noticed that alot of martial artists must not have any principles when it comes to learning and using eye jabs.
> 
> In my opinion, you should never use eye jabs, EVER! They're completely evil. You've taken a fist fight and elevated it to a point where you and your competitor and now liable to blind each other and cause massive damage for life. Whereas before the loser would just get a few bruises and abit of a kicking.
> 
> ...


 
I disagree as there is only one rule to fighting...That is, there are no rules. If somebody tried to hurt me with a knife or gun I would try and take it of them, and use it against them, it is called self defense, isnt it?


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## Hand Sword (Apr 28, 2006)

Yes it is! No evil moves, just evil people.


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## bobster_ice (Apr 28, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Yes it is! No evil moves, just evil people.


 

Good good, I thought that I was the only person that thought that,lol,

Bobby


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## ginshun (May 15, 2006)

Your responce has to be equivalent to the threat, but that is all.  There is nothing evil about poking or gouging the eyes if the situation calls for that level of responce.

If I am trying to subdue a drunken friend at a party, gouging his eyes out is probably not the best way to go about it.

If some guy in a dark alley jumps me, anything goes.

I'm a pretty level headed guy, and I am not one to get into "simple fist fights" whatever that is, so I pretty much figure that if the situation has escalated to the point where its a actual physical brawl, I will probbaly feel justified dishing out a poke to the eyes or a punch / kick to the groin / throat / whatever.


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