# East meets West



## matt.m (Mar 27, 2008)

If a Highlander used a Tang Katana it was a 34 in blade instead of the 27 inch japanese katana.  The handle is also a few inches longer to allow the folks to fight against broadsword.

Now recently, I have had a great b-day present from my dad.  He was able to find a mint condition L4 carbon steel Ivory Handled Tang Katana for me.  He gave it to me for my birthday.

The counterbalance in the handle is perfect.  I have a stainless steel practice katana, it's fun.  However, I have always used it as "Scottish Broadsword techniques."  "Lichtenhaur" as well......however, what is not commonly spouted out is that the German actually learned what was his base system from the Scotts of the Highlands.  This is why unlike the Japanese style of quick slashing much like French rapier there is much more emphasis on power killing strokes.  There are truly only 5 in the Lichtenhauer system and they are all based directly from the very system of the Highlanders of Scotland.


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## Langenschwert (Mar 28, 2008)

matt.m said:


> however, what is not commonly spouted out is that the German actually learned what was his base system from the Scotts of the Highlands.


 
What?  It's not commonly spouted because it's not true.  Liechtenauer certainly did travel around learning from whoever he could (at least that's what's said in the scant records we have), but I doubt he ever made it to Scotland.  More likely he wandered the HRE with forays into Italy and likely Poland.  It's been hypothesized that Liechtenauer was eastern European due to the style of dress shown in the "Von Danzig" fechtbuch which contains an image that _might_ be a portrait of Liechtenauer.  Whoever he is, he's not dressed like a German of his period.



> This is why unlike the Japanese style of quick slashing much like French rapier


 
Which french rapier?  Thibault?  He was a fenchman doing _Spanish_ rapier a.k.a. Destreza.  I don't really know much about French rapier in particular, if there is such a beast.  Regardless, while there are cuts in most rapier methods, it is primarily reliant on the thrust, with cuts used when the point cannot be brought to bear.



> there is much more emphasis on power killing strokes.


 
Yes and no.  The Zornhau certainly is a powerful stroke, but the most likely result is a bind from two cuts more or less in opposition, from which the most practical "killing" technique is a thrust, say the zorn-ort or the first winding.  That's why the cuts should end with a threat with the point, which is the "kernel and centre of all techniques", not pass all the way though to Nebenhut/Wechsel.  You _can_ strike and slice from the bind, of course.



> There are truly only 5 in the Lichtenhauer system


 
There are indeed Five "Master Strikes" in addition to the Eight basic cuts and two thrusts (i.e. one from above and one from below).



> and they are all based directly from the very system of the Highlanders of Scotland.


 
Nonsense.  The system of German longsword is descended from techniques using the Messer which is the Germanic falchion.  That's probably why they use the terms "long and short edge", when on a longsword, the edges are the same length.

Anywho, I hope you enjoyed your b-day present.  It's always nice to get a new shiny sword.  I just got one myself.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Jeff Richardson (Mar 31, 2008)

Ummm... Thibault was Dutch... from Amsterdam.  The text was written in the French Lanquage.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 31, 2008)

.......and remember....there can be only one!!







 Sorry! Couldn't resist. I'm up late studying and a little loopy-lol!


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## Langenschwert (Mar 31, 2008)

Jeff Richardson said:


> Ummm... Thibault was Dutch... from Amsterdam. The text was written in the French Lanquage.


 
Oops!  My bad. 

-Mark (who's half Dutch himself)


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## pgsmith (Apr 4, 2008)

> This is why unlike the Japanese style of quick slashing much like French rapier there is much more emphasis on power killing strokes.


  Also wrong in that there are very few quick slashing cuts in any of the Japanese sword arts with which I am familiar.


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## kaizasosei (Apr 17, 2009)

whatever....just thought i'd resurrect this thread with some neat links.

What are your thoughts on these techniques? I have some comments, but i'll hold them for now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj4Ng6DBfrg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC5FIyfI8TA&feature=related

I'm looking forward to getting some feedback- so hit back when you see this.


j


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## ScottUK (Apr 20, 2009)

What the hell is a _tang katana_?


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## lklawson (Apr 20, 2009)

Wow.  Old thread resurrected.

BTW, just to throw this on the (old) fire.

Highland Broadsword would probably not be the first broadsword/military-saber system I'd use with a Katana.  No basket-hilt to guard the hand.  Makes some of the moulinets and attacks more iffy for the fingers.

Cossack Shasqua, on the other hand...  Yeah, that'd probably work right nice with a katana

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shaska_Cosaca_II.jpg
http://therionarms.com/sold/ttoy274.html
http://www.prices4antiques.com/fire...ua-Cossack-Leather-Scabbard-1911-D9922334.htm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product~item~501074~name~Russian+Shasqua.htm

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Langenschwert (Apr 20, 2009)

kaizasosei said:


> What are your thoughts on these techniques? I have some comments, but i'll hold them for now.


 
The Von Danzig clip is the better of the two. Overall, I think both clips are quite nice. I don't agree with all the interpretations, but each video those guys do is better than the last. The messer video is particularly nice, with nice interpretations of the techniques.

In the Von Danzig clip, they show a person in Alber countering a vertical oberhau with a Zwerch. The only reason that works is that the vertical strike is done slowly. I've never met anyone that could counter a full-speed Scheitelhau with the Zwerchhau from Alber. The manuals say to displace it in Kron (catch it in the crossguard over the head), which is still hard to do against a properly thrown Scheitelhau. I've been able to hit people in the head before they can even get to Kron. The rest of the interpretations are pretty decent. The funny thing is, you can use that technique in messer fighting, since the vertical strike cannot come as quickly with a one-handed weapon. 

They also do a lot of the techniques out of range, but that's for safety... they aren't wearing any masks.

Overall, Gladiatores do some of the nicest WMA vids out there.

Best regards,

-Mark


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