# Is there a such thing as too much Kenpo?



## Lil Tenzan (Aug 17, 2007)

Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?


I'm thinking its time you tried Kicknastics.
Sean


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## Darksoul (Aug 17, 2007)

-I'd say you have found your favorite dish, just merely working on the flavoring.

Andrew


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## MJS (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?


 
You don't say how long you've studied each one.  Was there are particular reason you jumped from one to the next?  

Mike


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## Sapper6 (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. *Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?*


 
i think you've already done that yourself.  although EPAK, white tiger, and villari's are all Kenpo systems, they are each _different_ kenpo systems.  there are different things to learn from each.  however, your goal should be to become as proficient as possible in each before moving on to another.  just how long did you study each system?  

the main reason students look for other systems to study is because they feel their primary system is lacking of something else they desire.  is this the case?  to say, "i've studied 3 systems of Kenpo, should i move on?" is not going to generate an honest response.  you're likely to be welcomed with more questions than answers.

personally, i would rather master ONE system, than be half-*** in several.

good luck in your search.


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## Lil Tenzan (Aug 17, 2007)

Let's see, I started training in Martial Arts when I was 4 at a school called Karate International we moved when I was 9 yrs old. That's when I started studying American Kenpo. I ended with a 3rd Black Belt, I was 15 then.  I would have continued but the school ended up shutting down. I messed around with Judo for a while but since I only made it to orange belt I don't really consider that studying. I started Training in White Tiger Kenpo and ended up with a 1st Black Belt at age 21 (I'm 25 now.) I didn't have a real reason for quitting White Tiger I just wanted to put more effort into my college work and studying. I haven't been in a dojo since I stopped at 21 evn though I continued to train. Now I am ready to get back into a dojo. I was gonna go for Shaolin Kenpo when I began to wonder am I studying too much Kenpo and should I go for something else like Judo again maybe.


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## Sapper6 (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Let's see, I started training in Martial Arts when I was 4 at a school called Karate International we moved when I was 9 yrs old. That's when I started studying American Kenpo. I ended with a 3rd Black Belt, I was 15 then. I would have continued but the school ended up shutting down. I messed around with Judo for a while but since I only made it to orange belt I don't really consider that studying. I started Training in White Tiger Kenpo and ended up with a 1st Black Belt at age 21 (I'm 25 now.) I didn't have a real reason for quitting White Tiger I just wanted to put more effort into my college work and studying. I haven't been in a dojo since I stopped at 21 evn though I continued to train. Now I am ready to get back into a dojo. I was gonna go for Shaolin Kenpo when I began to wonder am I studying too much Kenpo and should I go for something else like Judo again maybe.


 
you were a third degree black in American Kenpo at the age of 15?  

wow.  i'm at a loss for words.

if i were you, i'd go back through and relearn American Kenpo.


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## Lil Tenzan (Aug 17, 2007)

I'm not sure I follow? Why should I go back?


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## Blindside (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> I'm not sure I follow? Why should I go back?


 
Because for most of us, that is how much time it takes to go from first black to third black.  So forgive us for being a bit skeptical....

Lamont


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## 14 Kempo (Aug 17, 2007)

Blindside said:


> Because for most of us, that is how much time it takes to go from first black to third black. So forgive us for being a bit skeptical....
> 
> Lamont


 
I agree, something doesn't add up. Maybe that's why the school closed.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> I ended with a 3rd Black Belt, I was 15 then.



The McDojo, it burnssss us my precious!


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## Doc (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Let's see, I started training in Martial Arts when I was 4 at a school called Karate International we moved when I was 9 yrs old. That's when I started studying American Kenpo. I ended with a 3rd Black Belt, I was 15 then.  I would have continued but the school ended up shutting down. I messed around with Judo for a while but since I only made it to orange belt I don't really consider that studying. I started Training in White Tiger Kenpo and ended up with a 1st Black Belt at age 21 (I'm 25 now.) I didn't have a real reason for quitting White Tiger I just wanted to put more effort into my college work and studying. I haven't been in a dojo since I stopped at 21 evn though I continued to train. Now I am ready to get back into a dojo. I was gonna go for Shaolin Kenpo when I began to wonder am I studying too much Kenpo and should I go for something else like Judo again maybe.


Personally,  I don't think you've studied Kenpo yet. But what do I know.


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## Lil Tenzan (Aug 17, 2007)

Well guys I mean we're talking about 2hr 30 minute class, 6 days a week. Well I went 6 days a week anyway. I had the time. Anyway it's my fault really as I decided to take the test and passed them. But I wouldnt say you are wrong because maybe I am the screw up here. I know the system I was taught foreword and backwards but I'm not bragging about being the rank I am, infact i don't even like to say "duh huh huh well I'm a black belt" Cause it sounds like bragging. But I don't want to come off as an a-hole or how do you say it um poser. So I think I will take you guys advice and go back and try to get into a good Amercan Kenpo school because i'd rather have you guys respect than disgrace. With that being said thanks for you guys imput.


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## Empty Hands (Aug 17, 2007)

Lil Tenzan said:


> But I wouldnt say you are wrong because maybe I am the screw up here.



Hey, not so fast, I don't think anyone here is blaming you.  You were 15 years old, adults you knew and respected were the ones teaching you and awarding rank - they were the screw ups, not you.  There is no way in hell that a 15 year old has the maturity and mastery necessary to hold the title of "Senior Instructor" - but you had no real way of knowing that at the time.  I think everyone here would blame your head instructor, not you.

As for your original topic, I would stick with EPAK - but I'm biased.  IMO, stay away from Villari's and associated kempo, I was not impressed.  But that is just one beginner's opinion.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Aug 17, 2007)

You got all that out of Kenpo? As Monty Python says "Now for something completely different. Pentcak Silat, Escrima, Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Shorin Ryu Karate etc, etc. Try a different brand of cereal, thats what I'd do. But thats why I'm Karate Drifter.
 lol


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## masherdong (Aug 18, 2007)

> You got all that out of Kenpo? As Monty Python says "Now for something completely different. Pentcak Silat, Escrima, Praying Mantis Kung Fu, Shorin Ryu Karate etc, etc. Try a different brand of cereal, thats what I'd do. But thats why I'm Karate Drifter.



Yeah, I hear ya.  I went from kajukenbo to american kenpo to praying mantis kung fu.  My reason for switching is that they are either to far away or there is no school here in my area.  Funny though how praying mantis kung fu is just 2 miles from my house.  This is not a common school to find let alone in my backyard.


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## karate-dragon (Aug 18, 2007)

Any style is only really as good as the instructor is. You might be more interested in finding a good school that is convenient and that has a good instructor and worry about that more than the style.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 18, 2007)

Sapper6 said:


> you were a third degree black in American Kenpo at the age of 15?
> 
> wow. i'm at a loss for words.
> 
> if i were you, i'd go back through and relearn American Kenpo.


No wiser words have ever been spoken.
Sean


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## cane56 (May 29, 2021)

Sapper6 said:


> you were a third degree black in American Kenpo at the age of 15?
> 
> wow.  i'm at a loss for words.
> 
> if i were you, i'd go back through and relearn American Kenpo.


Thinking same, in the 70s and 80s never knew such a young man. I'm sure they were out there, but not in my corner of the woods.


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## RagingBull (May 29, 2021)

Don´t yap too much about Kempo /Kenpo ..just do it !


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## Doc (May 29, 2021)

Interesting, I wonder what the age was when he made Black. 9, 10? Doesn't matter, it's bogus anyway.


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## Gentle Fist (May 30, 2021)

Imagine someone asking you what’s the best hamburger you ever had in your life.... and the response was a McDonald’s Big Mac 🤪


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## Doc (May 30, 2021)

Gentle Fist said:


> Imagine someone asking you what’s the best hamburger you ever had in your life.... and the response was a McDonald’s Big Mac 🤪


Yep, same thing. It's a product that can only be evaluated on its merits in real-time by the individual.


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## RagingBull (May 30, 2021)

i think i would have loved to have trained under Ed parker. Definetly a legend in martial arts & i like how he proved you do not need to be Asien to develop a system of fighting. liked how his techniques flowed. close up fighting.


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## Flying Crane (May 30, 2021)

Doc said:


> Yep, same thing. It's a product that can only be evaluated on its merits in real-time by the individual.


How have you been Doc?  Haven’t seen you around in a while.  Hope you’ve been well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 30, 2021)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?


You want to grow tall. You don't want to grow fat. Whatever can help you to grow tall should be your choice.


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## isshinryuronin (May 30, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> i think i would have loved to have trained under Ed parker. Definetly a legend in martial arts & i like how he proved you do not need to be Asien to develop a system of fighting. liked how his techniques flowed. close up fighting.


Ed Parker was Hawaiian and could be considered of Asian / Polynesian descent.  He may be credited in developing a new system, but note that much of that was building on existing technique and principles.  He combined elements of several styles:

From Chinese kempo he got defense sequences for various SD situations, each with a descriptive name (broken staff, etc.), the close-in fighting style and mechanics are similar to traditional Okinawan karate, and the efficient flow shows the influence of his Pacific island roots.  This does not diminish his accomplishment as all styles of karate developed from borrowing and adapting from other styles.

His main contribution, IMO, was in integrating and refining all this into a style based on economy of motion and taught in a systemized, Americanized format.  Of course, his business model, personal ambition and successful promotion aided in the popularization of karate in the late 60's - mid 70's.


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## Gentle Fist (May 30, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> i think i would have loved to have trained under Ed parker. Definetly a legend in martial arts & i like how he proved you do not need to be Asien to develop a system of fighting. liked how his techniques flowed. close up fighting.


The Gracies were a few decades ahead... but yes his influence on the USA was massive.


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## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Ed Parker was Hawaiian and could be considered of Asian / Polynesian descent.  He may be credited in developing a new system, but note that much of that was building on existing technique and principles.  He combined elements of several styles:
> 
> From Chinese kempo he got defense sequences for various SD situations, each with a descriptive name (broken staff, etc.), the close-in fighting style and mechanics are similar to traditional Okinawan karate, and the efficient flow shows the influence of his Pacific island roots.  This does not diminish his accomplishment as all styles of karate developed from borrowing and adapting from other styles.
> 
> His main contribution, IMO, was in integrating and refining all this into a style based on economy of motion and taught in a systemized, Americanized format.  Of course, his business model, personal ambition and successful promotion aided in the popularization of karate in the late 60's - mid 70's.


not an expert on him but i read he trained with a Kempo guy Willian Chow ??


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## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

wow..this video is sort of creepy !


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## isshinryuronin (May 31, 2021)

Very creepy computer animation, above.  It's origin???  You, Raging Bull? 

Interesting that Choki Motobu, known as a Tomari-te Okinawan karate master, was in it.  Can't imagine why he was included -  no connection that I know of.


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## RagingBull (May 31, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> You, Raging Bull?


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## isshinryuronin (May 31, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> not an expert on him but i read he trained with a Kempo guy Willian Chow ??


"Kempo" was a generic term for karate/kung fu used to describe the various Chinese/Okinawan MA, at least in Okinawa,  before the term "karate" was in fashion.  It is not a style in its own right.


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## Doc (May 31, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> i think i would have loved to have trained under Ed parker. Definetly a legend in martial arts & i like how he proved you do not need to be Asien to develop a system of fighting. liked how his techniques flowed. close up fighting.


Well, it wasn't all "cookies and creme." But, I cherished it for almost 30 years without a break.


Flying Crane said:


> How have you been Doc?  Haven’t seen you around in a while.  Hope you’ve been well.


Me, and father time have been in some pretty good scuffles but I'm holding my own so far. Many of my dearest friends, colleagues, and students haven't been as fortunate. Thanks for checking on the Old Man.


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## Flying Crane (May 31, 2021)

Doc said:


> Well, it wasn't all "cookies and creme." But, I cherished it for almost 30 years without a break.
> 
> Me, and father time have been in some pretty good scuffles but I'm holding my own so far. Many of my dearest friends, colleagues, and students haven't been as fortunate. Thanks for checking on the Old Man.


Keep yourself well, sir.  I’m sorry if you’ve lost some people.  It’s been a bad time.  Hugs.


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## Buka (Jun 1, 2021)

The Doc's in the house!

Wishing you and yours all the best, sir.


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## punisher73 (Jun 2, 2021)

RagingBull said:


> not an expert on him but i read he trained with a Kempo guy Willian Chow ??



Correct, Ed Parker learned his Kenpo from William Chow.  William Chow was also the main kenpo instructor for Adriano Emperado, founder of Kajukenbo.


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## punisher73 (Jun 2, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Very creepy computer animation, above.  It's origin???  You, Raging Bull?
> 
> Interesting that Choki Motobu, known as a Tomari-te Okinawan karate master, was in it.  Can't imagine why he was included -  no connection that I know of.



Choki Motobu wrote a book called "Okinawan Kempo", so the art he taught was a combination of Shuri and Tomari.  Not to mention his own family had their own art of Motobu-Ryu.

But, he is often included based on statements made from James Mitose who claimed that Choki Motobu was his uncle.  Those claims have been debunked and were more lies told by Mitose.  Motobu did teach a young Hawaiian some karate (maybe a month) and Motobu was famous for his Naihanchi kata, which is/was included into many of the early Hawaiian Kenpo styles.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 2, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Correct, Ed Parker learned his Kenpo from William Chow.  William Chow was also the main kenpo instructor for Adriano Emperado, founder of Kajukenbo.


Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say ONE of the founders? Weren't there 5-6 of them?


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## punisher73 (Jun 2, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Ed Parker was Hawaiian and could be considered of Asian / Polynesian descent.  He may be credited in developing a new system, but note that much of that was building on existing technique and principles.  He combined elements of several styles:
> 
> From Chinese kempo he got defense sequences for various SD situations, each with a descriptive name (broken staff, etc.), the close-in fighting style and mechanics are similar to traditional Okinawan karate, and the efficient flow shows the influence of his Pacific island roots.  This does not diminish his accomplishment as all styles of karate developed from borrowing and adapting from other styles.
> 
> His main contribution, IMO, was in integrating and refining all this into a style based on economy of motion and taught in a systemized, Americanized format.  Of course, his business model, personal ambition and successful promotion aided in the popularization of karate in the late 60's - mid 70's.


Just a slight clarification.  The Kenpo he learned from Prof. Chow did not have names other than "lapel grab A" or things like that.  Ed Parker wrote down all of the techniques and variations he learned from Prof. Chow.  The Tracy Brothers actually named all of the techniques to reflect the Chinese method of given techniques poetic names.  When Ed Parker further refined his art, he changed the names of many techniques to give a consistancy to the naming (the current 154 technique system), for example, "shield" represents a block, "gift" is a handshake", "mace" is a punch.


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## punisher73 (Jun 2, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't it be more accurate to say ONE of the founders? Weren't there 5-6 of them?


Yep, in my head I even told myself I needed to state he was one of the founders.  But, I believe, he is the only one of them who actually taught the art publicly.

thanks for the catch.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jun 2, 2021)

I would rather work with 1 thank 3. caused each kenpo has his own style there the Edparker American Kenpo Karate then there kajukenpo there kenpo 5.0 and so on.

So just st8ck to 1


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## Doc (Jun 12, 2021)

When I was coming up there were four types of "Kenpo." Okinawan-Kenpo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Chinese Kenpo, and lastly Japanese Kempo. Ultimately, Okinawan-Kenpo through the Japanese influence changed the name to "te" bringing it in line with "kara-te" removing it from its obvious Chinese Roots. The Chinese taught the Okinawans so their influence was strong in Hawaii, but the major influence has to be Henry Okazaki and his DanZan Ryu Jiujitsu. DanZan Ryu was, like all the arts of Hawaii, a mixture of influences, and with Okazaki being Japanese it contained a great deal of the Japanese Culture Karate as well and suggests why Sifu Chow chose to name his interpretation "Kenpo-Karate" indicating its hybrid nature, and influence in his own training.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Jun 15, 2021)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?


I've studied and still teach after fifty years, my version of American Kenpo (AKJ-Kenpo). I was taught at Tracy school by Tracy and then taught there. I met Ed Parker and he set me up in a school to learn Kenpo. I then studied a little Aikido. 
Take as much as you want. I'm happy with my Kenpo which I add to and modify to my taste. Carefully check out Villan's Shaolin Kenpo, I heard some negatives about it, but not sure.
Good luck!
Sifu


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## chrstnkenpoist (Jun 15, 2021)

Lil Tenzan said:


> Excuse me if I seem like a noob. I just joined the forum. I was just wondering am I studying Kenpo too much. First I studied Parker's American Kenpo, then I have studied White Tiger Kenpo, and now im thinking about studying Villari's Shaolin Kenpo. Do you guys think it's time for a change or what?


Where are you at in each system? Is there a problem with the programs you’ve been involved in? Villari’s system in vastly different than American Kenpo as well as the White Tiger System. So?


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