# Where are the true lefties???



## geezer (Jun 4, 2009)

I really enjoy the debates on this forum, but I feel like a moderate in the uncomfortable position of having to be a token lefty. I mean, out in the real world, I am routinely attacked and insulted from both sides. That should make me something of a centrist, relatively speaking. But on this forum I feel like I'm out in left field. What's with that?

Let me give you guys an example. I voted for President Obama and I'm pretty much satisfied with the job he's doing so far... with some exceptions. OK, considering that he won the election by a significant majority and still is enjoying very high approval ratings, that should put me in the mainstream. Especially, since the more liberal groups are beginning to attack the President for not fully carrying out their agendas.

Yet on this forum, everybody, ...well _almost_ everybody, seems further to the right. OK that's cool. Still a lot of smart people with interesting opinions... But where are the lefties? Don't socialists practice the martial arts? It seems like there should be some Commies from Krav Maga or something. What did the KGB use?  Help me out here, guys.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 4, 2009)

Well, I hope I fit in the 'exceptions agreed' clause inplicit in "almost everybody" .

I think in part that the lack of Far Left opinions here at MT has something to do with the age distribution of the membership i.e. most of us are adults and quite a number are in their middle years.  It is natural for people to trend towards more conservative (deliberate small "c") opinions as they get older - the practical grind of life knocks the idealistic shine off a lot of things.

It is also true that the Far Left paradigms, as implemented by the USSR and China, have been somewhat discredited and are considered by some to be examples of the failure of such political ideas.

As we've talked about before, definitions are a bit vague when the Atlantic gets in the way but I consider myself to still be a liberal-socialist, the latter primarily owing to my economic opinions and the former to my social ones.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 4, 2009)

I think it may also be part of a martial arts mindset - namely the believe that in certain circumstances, violence does indeed solve problems.  It's just a question of what, how much,  and when.

Not many of my left-wing friends or relatives see any value whatsoever in MA training, because it involves violence, which they see as something to be avoided under all circumstances.

Nothing against them - just a different point of view.


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## CoryKS (Jun 4, 2009)

Depends on your perspective.  To me, the group seems mostly comprised of lefties or libertarians, with a few notable exceptions.  Used to be a lefty myself, but I got better.


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm a true lefty. I like Obama--he's a BIG improvement over what we had--but he's not liberal enough for me. My choice was Kucinich.

I like a good political discussion as much as the next guy, but I have no tolerance for personal epithet and insulting generalizations.   That's why I no longer post here.


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## Flea (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm a lefty too.  

I was a little surprised when I got into this to find the more conservative bent in the MA community.  I'm not sure why I was ... but it's been a good education for me.  I don't have any plans to convert though.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 4, 2009)

love Churchills quote, well I love many of them but this one is one of my favs, 

If youre not a liberal when you are young, you have no heart. If youre not a conservative when youre old you have no brain.

I consider myself a Libertarian, in order to find a political home, here in Canada, I plopped myself down with the Conservatives. Now I have serious issues with some of their policies, and I find a huge range of beliefs among the members, (red Tory vs. blue Tory). I consider myself centre right on economics, military, democratic reform and for rights of the individual. I consider myself centre left when it comes to the arts, health care and the environment.

Personally I wouldnt get too hung up about it all, no one here really minds one way or anoher. This forum is like sitting down with your dojo mates after practice, shooting the **** and having a beer, tones of opinions. In the end they are the friends who would do anything for you. We all love the Martial Arts, thats it in a nut shell.


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## bluekey88 (Jun 4, 2009)

I consider myself pretty left of center...although  it's not across the board on all issues.  All in all my po9litcal and social bent is a liberal one.  I tend to stay out of the heated political debates as they tend to go no where.

Peace,
Erik


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## geezer (Jun 4, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> I consider myself pretty left of center...although  it's not across the board on all issues.  All in all my po9litcal and social bent is a liberal one.  I tend to stay out of the heated political debates as they tend to go no where.
> 
> Peace,
> Erik



So what I'm getting is that true lefties are too pacifistic and tolerant to suffer the aggravation of posting here. That leaves us formerly left-leaning moderates to shoulder the burden. And, since I'm getting into my middling years (I'll be 54 next month), I'm a prime example of what Bill and Ken noted... the rightward drift that comes with age. I'm also fond of that Churchill quote. A lot of truth in that.


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## Nolerama (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm a Lefty... it's pretty useful for boxing.

Bob, I know we disagree with some things, and I'm adding your statement to the mix. Thinking "left" doesn't necessarily mean you're a pacifist or a peacenik.

Ad for myself, I definitely don't like the status quo established by the Bush 2.0 era. I also believe that gay people should have the right to marry, that America should endeavor to adjust our economy/infrastructure towards renewable resources, and that American capitalism is creating a huge disparity between the rich and poor and we'll end up like Brazil in 50 years. I think there should be baseline medical care for all Americans... And I think Barbara Bush was one of the ugliest women... ever.

Call me Left?

I also believe in gun rights. War as in "pax Romana" as a good way to stimulate the economy (just not the way war industry was handled this time around) and establish national pride. I think that if the world is going to play a media game and wage cultural war on the rest of the world, we should strive to be the best and influence other cultures in order to win them over. Hearts and minds are won via television and internet propaganda. I like steak, bacon and wouldn't mind drilling for oil in Alaska as a temporary means of reducing gas prices.

Call me Right?

I don't really think it matters what you call it. The more people add names to what they are, the more they pigeonhole themselves into a stereotype. That means they think of others in stereotypes. Racism/classism/all the isms are born from this simple, yet popular, way of thinking.

So I ask anyone reading this thread to possibly step back and ask themselves what they really think right now, instead of adding past prejudices from lame stereotypes into their decisions.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm relatively liberal with mostly left leaning views. I get into some of the threads, I certainly read almost all of the Study threads, but I really have little desire to post there unless I have a particularly strong opinion or it is something that I feel that I have some knowledge in.

I do believe that most of the Martial Arts community is more right leaning and I have noticed a fairly strong inclination for Martial Artists to share certain views. In general they are on the political right and many have "security concerns." Which makes sense, because security is a reason to get into MA. I see many martial artists who are conspiracy theorists and who are much more concerned about personal and government security than your average person. I tend to see more concern from the MA community about the government being corrupt or somehow "out to get" the average citizen.

My reasons for largely staying away from posting are two-fold. 

First, I am in the Military. As such, I am prohibited by law from being too vocal about my views. There are things that you can say, but I think that many members know what I do. Though I know personally that the members here would not try to equate my views with that of the military, but the rule exists to prevent service members from being perceived as speaking on behalf of the military. We are prohibited from publicly renouncing or "denigrating" the government, particularly when our occupation is general knowledge (nothing in uniform, etc). Some of these issues, I also have knowledge that would be security violations or I have "inside" info based on security clearance and experience, so those I REALLY try to stay away from.

Second, the right minded individuals around here are pretty opinioned and out spoken. Not a bad thing at all and completely within people's rights. But in my time here, I really haven't seen a reason to post opposing opinions in most cases. Many of our discussions in the study go quickly to political bashing of one side or another. There are many sweeping generalizations (in the real world also) made, which honestly, I just don't have time for.  Once you label yourself, you get stereotyped and pigeon holed.  NO ONE'S views are completely one way or the other, people exist in a world of grays, not black and white.  

I hear a lot of it off the boards too and I know that my perspective is skewed (even though I technically consider myself independent, I have more liberal views than conservative), but I seem to hear more attacks and generalized disparaging comments coming from the more conservative people about liberals than the other way. That is the nature of the beast though - liberals tend to be less confrontational and less likely to judge a group based on the actions of some members. There are very long standing stereo types of both sides and I've grown tired of the way that politics are viewed among the population. I've been personally attacked entirely too many times in person for my views by people that can't debate an issue without losing their cool, I am not about to do that in my leisure time sitting in front of a computer.

I tell my troops regularly that if they are overly emotional about a topic or have some vested personal interest, take a few steps back. Getting emotional and worked up over something doesn't solve the problem, it only makes it worse. Politics is a VERY emotional topic for everyone because it plays into the human nature of wanting to have control over their environment. Unfortunately, my person opinion is that you CANNOT have control over the vast majority of your environment and in a system as large and complex as politics and government - have an opinion, do your part and vote, contact your congressman for major issues, but other than that....there isn't much that you can do. Plus, I'm a bit of an idealist in that I truly believe that the government in general IS NOT out to get us and that most polititians, which liars, have our best interests at heart. I dont' see the sky falling any time soon.

Was that too much?


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## MBuzzy (Jun 4, 2009)

And for the record, I'm not a pacifist in ANY sense of the word.  There hasn't been a major conflict in the history of the world that violence can't or hasn't solved.  Although I do detest war....which comes from the fact that I also detest being shot at and blown up.


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## crushing (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't know what I am.  I was hopeful that W would be a significant departure from Clinton, but we ended up with more of the same, with the big difference really being the marketing and media portrayal.  I was going to vote for Obama, until it was obvious he had Michigan wrapped up and McCain gave up, so I went third party.  Time has yet to tell if we are going to actually get that significant departure and if so, if this particular departure will be a good thing.

Same sex and non-same sex couples alike should be able to marry and celebrate with a joint and a hooker if they want, but people shouldn't be able destroy a human (pre- or post-natal) unless that human is a threat to the life of another.  Just golden rule stuff (the ethic of reciprocity not alchemy).  I don't know if that makes me a lefty or a righty, it's probably not enough information.

I think of myself as a conservative, but not a big spending, big government, Heritage Foundation Republican hiding in conservative costume.  I'm more of the libertarian CATO Institute type.  Unfortunately, these very different types are often lumped together by the media and others.

Maybe I'm a _true_ lefty and just don't know it?  Daddy I'm home.  Where did everyone go?


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## Marginal (Jun 4, 2009)

Most of the vocal folks ended up leaving the site or getting banned during heated discussions.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 4, 2009)

Nolerama said:


> Bob, I know we disagree with some things, and I'm adding your statement to the mix. Thinking "left" doesn't necessarily mean you're a pacifist or a peacenik.



Most certainely does not.  Although the funny thing is that a good number of the people that claim it does as a insult against the left also use the USSR as an example of why "left"  thinking fails.

Left / Right seems far too limiting, I really think you need at least 2-axis on a political spectrum:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European-political-spectrum.png


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## shesulsa (Jun 4, 2009)

I play devil's advocate a lot because I generally detest blanket statements regardless of to whom or which party they refer.

I am generally left of center but have very stringent beliefs on the second amendment, criminal law, misplaced patriotism, abortion rights and gay rights.

I don't think anyone with my politics would be electable (they haven't been for as long as I've been voting) because I am neither square nor round and it seems those are the only two shapes to be in American Politics.

You're not alone ... but there are some personalities on this board that sound a lot louder than others for very specific reasons.


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## crushing (Jun 4, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Left / Right seems far too limiting, I really think you need at least 2-axis on a political spectrum:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:European-political-spectrum.png


 
I definiately agree.  I often point towards the Nolan Chart, which is very similar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Nolan-chart.svg


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 4, 2009)

See now this is why, though I may make the occasional joke, I don't like political pigeonholing and do try to avoid doing it myself, even if I may not always succeed.

If you were to judge me *solely* on my views regarding religion, abortion or gay marriage---you would label me "liberal". 

If you were to judge me *solely* on my views regarding illegal immigration, welfare, or government bailouts---you would label me "conservative".

If you were to judge me *solely* on my views regarding the Second Amendment, self defense and the right to bear arms---you would label me an ultra right wing kook.

But none of those three "labels" are correct because they are not what make Andy, Andy.

People cannot be pigeonholed. So quit doing it and tell the media to cut the **** too.


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## Tez3 (Jun 4, 2009)

I think it's quite hard to categorise non Americans against American political standards and vice versa. It puzzles me when people say Obama is left or liberal as he seems to us far from that. Our political parties seem too different and our politics  very different, we don't seem to have the same interests apart from the economy and perhaps the Afghan/Iraq war.
To Americans it seems I'm very left and socialist where here I'm a middle of the road liberal!


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## Twin Fist (Jun 4, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Depends on your perspective.  To me, the group seems mostly comprised of lefties or libertarians, with a few notable exceptions.  Used to be a lefty myself, but I got better.




agreed, speaking as a conservative, I can say that IMO, the study has more regular posters that lean left than that lean right


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## Steve (Jun 4, 2009)

I lean left, although I'm with you, geezer, in that I consider myself to be a moderate.  

Tez, what's funny is that I know many Americans who would label not just you, but most of Europe as left wing socialists! 

My opinion is that leftists are, by their nature, more accepting of dissenting opinions.  Not the whackjobs, but the much larger body of left leaning moderates.  maybe I'm projecting my own opinions upon the larger group, but I honestly avoid what I consider all but the most egregious statements here and elsewhere because I fundamentally respect your right to an opinion even if I disagree with it.  I'm also, quite frankly, tired of the endless, circular nature of the debate.  I was all for a heated discussion early in the Bush administration, but after 8 years of it, I've lost my taste for it.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jun 4, 2009)

I don't know what I am I have a hard time trying to be human functioning in society without absurd random questions popping in my head like(what kinda of Robot would I be if I were a Robot and would I be a good Robot or a bad Robot)


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## Sukerkin (Jun 4, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> agreed, speaking as a conservative, I can say that IMO, the study has more regular posters that lean left than that lean right


 

If we were sitting at a pub table downing a few pints I'd be able to see your face to see if you were joking with that one, John :lol:.

I know you mean it and I wouldn't laugh at you for saying it but from my perspective it is not so.

Ask me my opinion as an agnostic Englishman and I would tell you that, in my opinion, the site is awash with the Far Right and has a deeply entrenched subset of those whose absolutist cleaving to their particular brand of religion is most disturbing (adding those two things together has never boded well historically).

Perspective is a funny thing and we all see the same data set in a different fashion.


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## Steve (Jun 4, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> If we were sitting at a pub table downing a few pints I'd be able to see your face to see if you were joking with that one, John :lol:.
> 
> I know you mean it and I wouldn't laugh at you for saying it but from my perspective it is not so.
> 
> ...


Commie.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 4, 2009)

ROFLKLITA - I'd be insulted if that wasn't a perfect 'rim shot' in humour terms .


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## Steve (Jun 4, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> ROFLKLITA - I'd be insulted if that wasn't a perfect 'rim shot' in humour terms .


I'm glad you took it as intended.  I was worried that it wouldn't come off the same in print as in person.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 4, 2009)

I think that we have a large volume of left leaving individuals, but they seem to either post once or twice in those threads and lurk beyond that or steer away from the study.  Generally the discussions are 6-8 of the same people - and that subset is probably more right than left.


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## Carol (Jun 4, 2009)

Political agnostic. I'm too liberal to be a conservative, too conservative  to be a liberal, and stopped believing in either of them a long time ago.


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## searcher (Jun 4, 2009)

I am so far to the right that I consider everyone here to be a Lefty. 

To find me, go as far right as you can get, then keep going down that dirt path for about 4 days. You will find me out there, with my wife, my Bible, and my rifle.


For me, Bush was to liberal.


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## shihansmurf (Jun 4, 2009)

Libertarian.

I have the odd belief of following the entire Constitution, so it makes it impossible to for me to lean too far to either side of the spectrum. 

I would guess my views seem to even out to being moderate, but mainly because I have quite a few polarized positions that "cancel" each other and bring me back to the center of the scale.

I worry about the direction that we are currently heading, but I have  for quite a bit. About twelve years or so, in fact.

In all fairness, there are a few issues that I avoid at all costs but there are a few that I can't resist. Gun Control threads are like flames to a moth for me, for example, but mostly I tune in to the politics forums to enjoy the lively exchanges between some of the more ardent regulars. Twinfist and EmptyHands have provided some outstanding diversions during CQ. Thanks guys!

Mark


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 5, 2009)

Here's an idea...:idea: 

How about you avoid labeling yourself and adhering to the rhetoric of said label and think for yourself? 

Sorry, but I feel that too many people stick to the "party line" instead of doing their duty as a citizen, researching the issues, and simply tow their party's line. 

I have many friends that label themselves, but when discussing how they personally feel about current issues find that the vast majority of them don't agree with their professed parties platform!!!


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Here's an idea...:idea:
> 
> How about you avoid labeling yourself and adhering to the rhetoric of said label and think for yourself?
> 
> ...



Yeah, that can happen when you think for yourself.


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## Big Don (Jun 5, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> I have many friends that label themselves, but when discussing how they personally feel about current issues find that the vast majority of them don't agree with their professed parties platform!!!


My dad has always been registered as a Democrat, the last one he voted for was JFK...


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## jetboatdeath (Jun 5, 2009)

Seems like all the true lefties are busy dodging the tax man....


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## Andrew Green (Jun 5, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Sorry, but I feel that too many people stick to the "party line" instead of doing their duty as a citizen, researching the issues, and simply tow their party's line.



"Polarize the people" does seem like it is all the rage in politics these days.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 5, 2009)

geezer said:


> I really enjoy the debates on this forum, but I feel like a moderate in the uncomfortable position of having to be a token lefty. I mean, out in the real world, I am routinely attacked and insulted from both sides. That should make me something of a centrist, relatively speaking. But on this forum I feel like I'm out in left field. What's with that?
> .



I am a moderate centrist myself. As you say, in this place, I seem to be a leftie. Don't know why this is though.

In my other forum I organized a poll on election day, to ask only American voters to indicate which candidate they voted for. It was an anonymous poll, and it came out 3 - 1 in favor of McCain, which led me to the conclusion that the board is heavily slanted towards the republicans.

I have no explanation for it.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 5, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> agreed, speaking as a conservative, I can say that IMO, the study has more regular posters that lean left than that lean right



No offense, but I think the reason for that is that compared to yourself, almost everyone is leaning left.
Judging by the subset of your posts that I read (granted: this is realistically an incomplete picture of you) there is no room left on your right side to lean to.


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## Tez3 (Jun 5, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> No offense, but I think the reason for that is that compared to yourself, almost everyone is leaning left.
> Judging by the subset of your posts that I read (granted: this is realistically an incomplete picture of you) there is no room left on your right side to lean to.


 
TBH thats how it does come across TF, you seem to be somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun lol! I think Maggie Thatcher would look like a socialist next to you! :lfao:


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 5, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> "Polarize the people" does seem like it is all the rage in politics these days.


 
Makes you wonder what would happen if more people realized that. 

I think when most truely examine their beliefs they find they lean left on some issues and right on others. 

Funny, doesn't have anything to do with political philosophy but I'm reminded of a quote from SGM Ed Parker, _"In the end it doesn't matter who is right, it matters who is left." _lol


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## Stac3y (Jun 5, 2009)

I'm a lefty. I even voted for Nader (hey, don't blame me; I wasn't in a swing state.)


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## girlbug2 (Jun 5, 2009)

I am hugely frustrated with our whole political system because my politics can't find a home in either party. I would have labelled myself as a conservative some years ago but then I became aware of shortcomings in the Republican party line. I feel forced to mainly vote republican in elections because of the lack of viable candidates in the libertarian or independant camp.

Conservatives would reject me if they knew how I felt about their general lack of concern for the environment and their obsession about gay issues. Also could somebody please tell them to give up already about the prayer in schools, it's a non issue.

Liberals despise me because of my stance on gun control issues, foreign policy and my rabid and unapologetic eating of meat. Oh yes, and because I think disciplining my kids is a good thing.

Party lines, bah. Where does one sign up for the "I can think for myself" party?


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 5, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I am hugely frustrated with our whole political system because my politics can't find a home in either party. I would have labelled myself as a conservative some years ago but then I became aware of shortcomings in the Republican party line. I feel forced to mainly vote republican in elections because of the lack of viable candidates in the libertarian or independant camp.
> 
> Conservatives would reject me if they knew how I felt about their general lack of concern for the environment and their obsession about gay issues. Also could somebody please tell them to give up already about the prayer in schools, it's a non issue.
> 
> ...


 
But then you'd be labeled for being associated with that party! DOH! :idunno:


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## JDenver (Jun 5, 2009)

I can answer the original question.

All the lefties are here, just North of you.....in Canada......!  Yay!

Our Conservative Party falls somewhere between your Democrats and Republicans.  Our Liberal Party is like moderate Democrat. They governed for 10 years until 2.5 years ago. Then the PQ in Quebec and the NDP are like.....hmmm.....*very* left wing Democrat.

I welcome you all to move here----


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 5, 2009)

JDenver said:


> I can answer the original question.
> 
> All the lefties are here, just North of you.....in Canada......! Yay!
> 
> ...


 
Whoa, whoa hold on a second Dude, I live here too!! Its like asking your Mom to come visit without getting the OK from your significant othernot cool!! 

I mean dont all the Mericans have guns? We cant have that!! Dont they all say yall and call people Darling and stuff? We cant have that!! Dont they have that watered down beer? We cant have that!! Dont they all believe in individual rights? We cant have that!! They worship Chuck Norris for goodness sakes!! We cant have that!!

If we let them all in, itd be chaos I tell you, chaos!!


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## CoryKS (Jun 5, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> I mean dont all the Mericans have guns? We cant have that!! Dont they all say yall and call people Darling and stuff? We cant have that!! Dont they have that watered down beer? We cant have that!! Dont they all believe in individual rights? We cant have that!! They worship Chuck Norris for goodness sakes!! We cant have that!!


 
Not the ones you're getting.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 5, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Not the ones you're getting.


 
:lfao:


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## CanuckMA (Jun 5, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Not the ones you're getting.


 
The ones we're getting probably don't know the difference between Chuck Norris and Chuck Brown. :lfao:


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 5, 2009)

CanuckMA said:


> The ones we're getting probably don't know the difference between Chuck Norris and Chuck Brown. :lfao:



Chuck Norris is that guy who does fitness equipment infomercials, right?


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 5, 2009)

> Liberals despise me because of my stance on gun control issues


 
I find that really odd.  Gun control is a total non-issue for liberals.  It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative.  (Neither does abortion, birth control, or vegetarianism, by the way)

I think gun control is one of the few issues that can truly be discussed rationally and with compassion.  For example, if you are a gun enthusiast, can you truly not understand why people in the inner city slums of New York hate hand guns? If you are a gun control advocate, can you appreciate that people like to hunt?  Maybe there should be different ways of dealing with the issue in different circumstances.

To me, the difference between "liberal" and "conservative" involves your world view.  Do you believe in the commons, or not?  Do you believe in public education, public roads, public libraries, etc; or should everybody purchase their own?  Do you believe that we all benefit when we all benefit, or should everyone only take care of his or her own/


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 5, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> I find that really odd. Gun control is a total non-issue for liberals. It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. (Neither does abortion, birth control, or vegetarianism, by the way)
> 
> I think gun control is one of the few issues that can truly be discussed rationally and with compassion. For example, if you are a gun enthusiast, can you truly not understand why people in the inner city slums of New York hate hand guns? If you are a gun control advocate, can you appreciate that people like to hunt? Maybe there should be different ways of dealing with the issue in different circumstances.
> 
> To me, the difference between "liberal" and "conservative" involves your world view. Do you believe in the commons, or not? Do you believe in public education, public roads, public libraries, etc; or should everybody purchase their own? Do you believe that we all benefit when we all benefit, or should everyone only take care of his or her own/


 
Up here my view on Conservative vs. Liberal is, the Conservatives believe and trust in the individual, the Liberals believe and trust in the State. 

Obviously its a massive generalization and once it meets reality it goes all over the place.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 6, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> I find that really odd. Gun control is a total non-issue for liberals. It has nothing to do with being liberal or conservative. (Neither does abortion, birth control, or vegetarianism, by the way)


 
Does it really look that way to you? I admit that I dont' have hard statistics to back this up, but by far the stereotype of democrats is pro-choice, and it's more difficult to find a republican vegetarian than a dem vegetarian. I've also notice that the dems love to stereotype republicans as gun-happy, religious redneck prolifers. We all encouter these cariciatures of popular culture in comedy ,op ed, blogs and political cartoons. Surely you aren't unaware of it.

.......... 


> To me, the difference between "liberal" and "conservative" involves your world view. Do you believe in the commons, or not? Do you believe in public education, public roads, public libraries, etc; or should everybody purchase their own? Do you believe that we all benefit when we all benefit, or should everyone only take care of his or her own/


 
I think we all believe in benefiting for and from the common good, it's just a matter of degree.


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## Phoenix44 (Jun 6, 2009)

"Democrat" does not equal "liberal"

"Republican" does not equal "conservative"

True, the Democratic party overall tends to support more liberal values while the Republican Party overall tends to support more conservative values, but the terms are not interchangeable.

Senator Olympia Snowe (Republican, Maine) is considered a liberal Republican.  She supports same sex marriage rights, reproductive rights, and recently authored a bill favoring curtailing commercial whaling because of declining whale populations.  She recently wrote an Op-Ed in the NY Times urging the Republican Party to be more inclusive in its membership.

Senator Ben Nelson (Democrat, Nebraska) is considered a conservative Democrat, who frequently votes against civil rights and environmental issues.

Snowe's views are definitely leftward of Nelson's. 

Kinky Friedman, a Texan who plans to run for governor (again) on the Democratic line, favors reproductive choice, immigration control, gay marriage, gun ownership, alternative energy, and tighter corporate control.

There are many religious organizations promoting stewardship of the environment and aid to the poor--liberal values.  The executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State is a minister.

Guns, abortion, and religion are not "liberal" or "conservative" values.  They're personal, they may even be regional, but they do not _define_ "liberal" or "conservative."  I think the problem comes when people start IMPLYING that gun control or religious observance defines liberal or conservative--this is how political operatives manipulate the public.

And by the way, saying that "dems love to stereotype republicans as gun-happy, religious redneck prolifers" is in itself a sterotype.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 6, 2009)

I think the definition of what a "liberal" is has changed over the years. 

The "JFK liberal" is a lot different than say...the "Barney Frank liberal." 

That's due in part to how they are portrayed in the media at the time as that influences the masses perception.


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