# The police: a cultural perspective



## Bruno@MT (Jan 19, 2011)

I was discussing with jks earlier today about how the police are regarded differently in different cultures. And I have indeed noticed a big difference and it took some getting used to.

While noone here (Belgium) likes getting a ticket etc, and is sometimes annoyed at being pulled over for a DUI test, the general concensus in many western European countries is that 'the police is your friend'. We realize that there are bad and incompetent coppers out there, but in general, we teach our kids that cops can be trusted, and provide a positive service. If a cop asks for information you give it, or if they want to look at something, you comply. 

In the US it seems to be the complete opposite. US friends of mine tell their kids not to talk to the police unless they are forced to, tell them not to trust them, and deny them whatever they are asking if they are asking without a warrant. Many Americans here post exactly the same thing. Such a thing would be unheard of over here among the general law abiding citizenry. 

What are your thoughts or perspective on this?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 19, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> In the US it seems to be the complete opposite. US friends of mine tell their kids not to talk to the police unless they are forced to, tell them not to trust them, and deny them whatever they are asking if they are asking without a warrant. Many Americans here post exactly the same thing. Such a thing would be unheard of over here among the general law abiding citizenry.
> 
> What are your thoughts or perspective on this?



Not my experience.  I was raised to believe that the police were on the side of decent, law-abiding citizens, were trustworthy, and were our friends.  Like the military, they were there to protect us and we were to be thankful that people like them were willing to put their lives on the line for us.

The motto of many US police departments is written on the side of their police cars, _"To Protect and To Serve."_  I take this to be literal.

Like any profession, there are those who should not be doing it.  Crooked cops exist, as do brutal cops.  The profession tends to attract a certain type, and at times, corruption, brutality, and other perversions of justice have existed.  They are, I believe, in the distinct minority in most places, at most times.

It is important to note that in the USA, all law enforcement are subject to civilian authority and oversight.  Police officers who transgress are arrested, tried, convicted, sent to prison; just like any other citizen who breaks the law.  They are often held to an even higher standard; not only do they have to avoid breaking the law, but to avoid giving that appearance.  While there may be a natural inclination for police to watch each other's backs and protect each other, there is seldom a culture of evil tolerated that is not reported on by other cops; even at risk to their own lives.

I have worked in law enforcement, both in the military and as a civilian.  I would never have done so if I thought that I was an enemy of the citizens I served.  I chose to serve because yes, I enjoyed the work I did, but also because I felt a very real call to serve my nation and my community.  The police, dispatchers, corrections officers, and other first responders I have had the honor of working with are all good and decent people in my opinion.  That we tend to club together, that our humor is tainted by our exposure to the darker side of human behavior, that we tend to distrust what we're told and only believe what we can prove, all these things can lead to alienation from the communities we serve; this is one of the prices we pay for standing on the ramparts.  We see the dregs far more than we see decent citizens, we're used to dealing with the dregs without kid gloves; this can lead some to believe that this is how we feel everyone should be treated.  Unfortunate, but it happens.


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## ballen0351 (Jan 19, 2011)

I think its a generational thing. Talking to older generation even life long criminals tend to show some type of respect to law enforcement most of them know they have a job to do (criminal) and we have a job to do (catch them). The younger one are they ones that you have to look out for. I&#8217;ve been cussed out by a 5 year old and he said he hopes I get a bullet thru the back of my head. This younger "Stop snitching" crowd #1 have no fear of the police or the justice system because they know they wont go to jail or they wont go for long. #2 They don&#8217;t have adult role models in their lives to teach them respect. #3 I don&#8217;t think they even value their own lives so I know they don&#8217;t value others.


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## Steve (Jan 19, 2011)

I don't know about the younger generation.  I can tell you that I was raised much as Bill Mattocks.  His post generally reflects my own opinions of cops.  I can also say that my own kids have been taught much the same.

I read somewhere that the difference between a good cop and a criminal is often some pivotal moment in their lives, before they really got into trouble, that sent them in one direction or the other.  While I have no idea if it's true or not, I've asked friends of mine who are cops over the years and most of them were pretty rowdy young men and women... most of them are still on the rowdy side.  I've asked them, and they tend to agree with the statement.

I know that a lot of cops are on these boards.  Would you say there's any truth to that?


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## Bikewr (Jan 19, 2011)

Depends to a large extent on location.  Although civilized Europe may hold their police in high regard, this is not the case in much of the rest of the world.   Whether it be Russia, the Middle East, the Pacific Rim, or South America, police are all too often corrupt, undertrained, and vicious.  
Or, they are tools of repressive government.   It's a sad state of affairs. 
We get students from all over the world here at the university I work at, and it's often the case with students from the above locations that they are fearful even of us campus police who maintain about as much of a nice-guy image as you can imagine.

Here in the US generally, there is a very great division regarding police mistrust depending on your location and ethnic background.   Ask an inner-city black person from Chicago what he thinks of the police.    Or the ghettos of LA....   A sorry history there.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 19, 2011)

Yes, I've heard that Russian police (and Eastern block in general) have corrupt police forces, or at least have the perception that they are. The high poverty rates probably have something to with that, and the fact that they were raised in a society where they were to be all powerful.


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## MJS (Jan 19, 2011)

Much like what Bill said, I too was raised that the police were the good guys, they were your friends, they were there to help you.  Of course, my Grandfather retired from a PD, so I grew up with that LE feeling in the air.   It was my childhood dream to follow in his footsteps and for the longest time, I was actively chasing that dream.  I've put it on the backburner, so to speak, for now, although my current job, while not a LEO, I do work close with them.

Back in the day, the relationship between the LEOs and the public was very, very different from what it is today.  There was alot more respect, and while I'm sure there were your 'bad cops' here and there, I do not believe it was anywhere near what it is today.

I posted a story about a LEO here in CT, who was drunk, driving, and killed a 15yo boy, riding his bike.  The officers father also worked at this same PD as a Sgt.  Well, operation coverup went into full swing.  There was another recent case of an officer coming to work drunk and crashing his car, after reportedly being at a party, prior to work.

So, all that said, I think that things like this, cause the general public to lose faith in the LE system.  

How are LEOs in other countries?  No idea.  I'm sure, depending on where you are, and what you do, that will determine how you're treated and whats tolorated and what isn't.  After seeing some recent topics here, and the replies, I can tell that there is often a big misunderstanding and some people just can't seem to understand why things are done the way they are.  

Something else to take into consideration....depending on the location, ie: a large city vs. a small rural town, the officers will be dealing with different types of people.  That will most likely determine how the officer deals with the people they interact with.  I'm not saying they should treat people like ****, but fact remains, an LA cop and a small town cop will probably be dealing with 2 different people.  

The majority of the LEOs that I deal with or have dealt with, have all been decent guys.  I certainly wouldnt let the bad apples in the bunch, spoil the way that the majority of them are.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 19, 2011)

America has a long convoluted and contradictory relationship with governmental authority......on the one hand, Americans are a deeply patriotic people.......on the other, we have a deep-rooted distrust of government and governmental power.

America until recently was a fronteer cultural, and along with that came a certain degree of individualism, self-reliance, and distrust of formal authority........a bit of an outlaw mentality has long existed among large swaths of American culture.

Those experiences manifest themselves to this day in the rather ambivalent relationship we have with policing in America.


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## Archangel M (Jan 19, 2011)

The thing is..."America" and especially when talking about our police forces is not a homogeneous entity. States vary in their cultures, areas of each state vary and even adjacent counties to individual towns vary in their populations and their attitudes. 

Police agencies are much the same. Not all police agencies are alike. City cops are different from Sheriff Deputies which are different from State Troopers which are different from local cops. You can no more compare your local cops to what you see cops from the other side of the country doing on television than you can compare how Texans differ from Californians.


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## jks9199 (Jan 19, 2011)

OK... I asked for this thread, because the topic has come up in a few different ways many times.

Let's start with the generic view of the police.  I think most people in the US accept the necessity of the police, and generally like the idea of the police.  Until a cop tells them that they were wrong.  There are lots and lots of stereotypes about cops being lazy, dishonest, too dumb for a real job, and more.  Most of those stereotypes are followed up by "but almost all the cops I know are OK."

But it's important to recognize that the US is a very, very diverse place.  There are significant elements of the culture that have a very antagonistic relationship with all government (except welfare...) and the police are the most visible and most oppressive face of the government.  And they raise their children with that view.  It doesn't help when the police force doesn't live in or even close to the jurisdiction, and aren't part of the community.  It doesn't help when the police force is of very different backgrounds than the community -- especially when very few cops look like the community they're in.  Yes, I mean the cops are mostly white, and the community in this case is almost invariably mostly black.  And it doesn't help that a very powerful us vs. them mentality develops among cops in general.

There's something else that's very important to realize.  The US is also one of the most gun-accepting societies in the world.  You can legally buy a gun in every state; some make it much harder, almost impossible -- but it can be done.  In many states you can obtain a permit to carry a gun concealed unless there's a reason for you not to be given one.  A few states don't even require a permit.  And, of course, there are also the illegal guns out there... in the hands of folks who don't care about the law.  What's that mean?  A cop in the US probably stands a better chance of facing an armed adversary than any other major nation.  (No research to support that; it's my gut feeling.)  That colors how we deal with people.

This year alone, depending on the sources, we have had 8 or 9 cops killed so far.  We're pushing towards double digits -- and we aren't even done the first month!  Most of those have been due to gunfire.  (See here for NLEOMF's numbers; they say 8 deaths to date.)  I'm not having any luck in digging up numbers for other nations that I trust; it'd be great if someone could find them.  Every year, between 150 and 200 cops are killed in the use.  About half, give or take, are traffic related.  About 2/3 of the rest are the result of some sort of attack.  That shapes how we deal with people, too.  "Treat everyone you meet with courtesy -- but have a plan to kill them" is a common mantra in US policing.

All of that said, let me talk about my own experience. I spent most of the last five years in a regional assignment, working in 15 different jurisdictions.  My home jurisdiction actually has a very positive relationship between the public and the police.  Nobody's happy to get a ticket or when we challenge them for doing wrong -- but most of the community generally supports us and trusts us.  In some other parts of the area... that's just not the case.  In a few cases... it's VERY much not the case, and cops don't go in there alone.  Like I said, the US is a very diverse nation.

We've also tried and theoretically placed the most power over daily life in the lowest levels of government; those closest to the people.  We have no federal police force; the federal government's law enforcement powers are relatively weak, though far reaching.  An FBI agent can't give you traffic ticket.  He's not going to show up at your door for a loud party or because of local problems.  Heck, they barely look at bank robberies until a magic dollar amount is hit...  DEA doesn't care about personal use quantities of drugs... and so on.  That's what local cops are for.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 19, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> The thing is..."America" and especially when talking about our police forces is not a homogeneous entity. States vary in their cultures, areas of each state vary and even adjacent counties to individual towns vary in their populations and their attitudes.
> 
> Police agencies are much the same. Not all police agencies are alike. City cops are different from Sheriff Deputies which are different from State Troopers which are different from local cops. You can no more compare your local cops to what you see cops from the other side of the country doing on television than you can compare how Texans differ from Californians.


 
There is considerable truth in that.......parts of this country were settled by a very diverse group of people's that came from a diverse societal background.........even among European groups you have Scots-Irish, Irish, Italian, French, German, Scandanavian, Eastern European, Hispanic etc, all bringing with them their own previous views on governmental authority.

Add to that mix more recent immigrants from Asia.

And that's not to even get in to the very complex and contradictory relationship between African Americans and governmental authority.

So, in very real sense, Europeans comparing themselves to Americans get it wrong.......we are a huge blend of different cultures not represented as broadly anywhere else on the planet.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 19, 2011)

sgtmac_46 said:


> So, in very real sense, Europeans comparing themselves to Americans get it wrong.......we are a huge blend of different cultures not represented as broadly anywhere else on the planet.


 
That is incorrect, Australia, has the highest percentage at 22%, Canada is at 20% and the US is at 12% of the total population that is foreign born.

There has to be more to the argument then the lack of homogeneity in a society. Poverty, education levels, social programs, job opportunities, gun culture, and a hundred other issues all factor into the equation.

Up here I think most people are OK with the police. Again though, get to the poor areas, or some native reserves, and the police are hated. 

Its funny we raise children not to be tattle-tales, then we wonder why they won't tell the police what they know when something bad happens.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 19, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> That is incorrect, Australia, has the highest percentage at 22%, Canada is at 20% and the US is at 12% of the total population that is foreign born.
> 
> There has to be more to the argument then the lack of homogeneity in a society. Poverty, education levels, social programs, job opportunities, gun culture, and a hundred other issues all factor into the equation.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't say recent immigrants, I said cultural backgrounds.......and while Australia and Canada likely do have a large number of immigrants, I doubt their cultural background is anywhere near as diverse across the board as the US.

For example, only 2.5% of the population of Canada is described as 'black'.........most Canadians are either European or of European descent...........the percentage is even greater in Australia.......which makes them both far more homogenously European than the US is.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 20, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> There's something else that's very important to realize.  The US is also one of the most gun-accepting societies in the world.  You can legally buy a gun in every state; some make it much harder, almost impossible -- but it can be done.  In many states you can obtain a permit to carry a gun concealed unless there's a reason for you not to be given one.  A few states don't even require a permit.  And, of course, there are also the illegal guns out there... in the hands of folks who don't care about the law.  What's that mean?  A cop in the US probably stands a better chance of facing an armed adversary than any other major nation.  (No research to support that; it's my gut feeling.)  That colors how we deal with people.



Very few people here carry guns legally. CCW is impossible to get for the general public.
We don't have guns in our culture. The only people carrying them are either hardened criminals OR really stupid. Because the cops will NOT shoot you if you are unarmed and not trying to assault them. Otoh they will shoot you dead if you are brandishing a gun.

So even criminals or gang members don't usually carry guns because they know that a) if they are caught with one, their sentence will be much harsher, and b) it raises the stakes significantly.


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## jthomas1600 (Jan 20, 2011)

I don't have much to add about the police in the US. I've taught my kids that 99.9% cops are decent people providing a needed service. 

I'm currently working in Rio, Brazil. The cops are feared here and rightfully so. I've seen tons and tons of footage on the news where the cops are interacting with someone and that someone so much as twitches and just gets drilled in the head. Knocked right the heck out. No mention ever of police brutality charges. The Federal Police (who are everywhere) carry a side arm on their hip and an automatic weapon slung around their neck.


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## jks9199 (Jan 20, 2011)

Another factor in the complex relationship between the public and the police...  parents who use the cops as the boogeyman.

At least once a week that I hear, and probably more often, some parent points to a cop, and says something like "if you don't <eat your vegetables/get in the car/stop that/or more>, the police will arrest you."  Yeah, the cops are the "stick" of the government; we're the ones who enforce the laws, write the tickets, and so on.  But it doesn't exactly foster a positive relationship when parents do things like that, either.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 20, 2011)

I've heard that in some cultures like Turkey and Morocco, the police actually have a 'in loco parentis' position. Meaning that if kids misbehave on the street it is the police who discipline them and lecture them.


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## Grenadier (Jan 20, 2011)

Much of how people in the USA see the police, is going to be highly dependent on how their culture affects them.  

I don't have enough time to write a full-fledged essay, so I'm going to have to make a *gross* generalization, using a couple of examples.  

If, for example, someone were raised in a poor neighborhood, where crime runs rampant, and were easily influenced by the bad element (gangs, drug dealers, etc), then it's only logical to conclude that he would be more likely to distrust / dislike the police.  The parents' (yes, especially both of them) role in being able to swing the individual towards one direction or the other, can make a huge difference here, though.  

I've seen many parents in the above poor neighborhoods, instill a strong sense of discipline and morals in their children, and those children tended to be much more likely to view the police in a more positive light.  It's not easy to do this, and even then, it's still no guarantee that the individual will take this kind of view, but the value of parental influence cannot be understated here.  

On the flip side of the coin, though, being raised in a decent neighborhood, where crime is low, and there's not much of a bad element, then it's more likely that the individual will have a higher trust and appreciation for the police.  Here again, though, is where the parents' influence can certainly sway the individual.  

After all, you can certainly have spoiled individuals who were given everything (except for a sense of discipline and morals), and have no respect for the authority, since they were constantly being bailed out of trouble.  This isn't just limited to young people, especially since there was once a powerful US Senator who thumbed his nose at the law after a drunken driving rampage / icy swim...

There are many, many more factors involved here, but the above should give a bit of insight on how some people turn out.


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## Nomad (Jan 20, 2011)

I think part of the distrust that many people in the US have in the police stems not so much from the police officers themselves, but from the often convoluted legal system that they represent.

There's an interesting perspective on it here



> It's something you should share with your children. I have a particular interest in this subject because of "zero tolerance" policies in schools. Too often, children defer to authority -- as they've been taught by ...uh... the authorities -- and when the principal says "Write out what happened and sign it," that resulting confession is often given to the police. Cops certainly can't demand that a suspect write a confession without first advising the suspect of their rights ("You have the right to remain silent..."), but school officials -- typically government agents in their own right -- don't seem to have a problem obtaining confessions for use against their own students, even without bringing in their parents first (let alone a lawyer). Kids (and adults!) often don't understand that they are sealing their own fate when they comply with such outrageous demands.



While in general I have the utmost respect for police officers and the job they've undertaken to frequently put themselves in harm's way, I agree wholeheartedly with the above sentiments, and if an officer wants to talk to my child about something, they can do so with me (and possibly my lawyer) present.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 20, 2011)

I got a ticket for J-walking last week.  grumble grumble.


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## VegasM4 (Jan 21, 2011)

One big problem is that most Americans get their information from the media which is generally anti-police.the only thing they know about an incident is what the media decides to tell them.Officers do great things every day from catching bad guys to delivering babies.Very rarely do you hear about those things on the news.But if a cop is arrested for DUI or there is video of any type of excessive force you can guarantee that it will be headline news and the media will already be saying the officer is guilty.
 Another thing that is aggravating is whenever an officer is involved in a critical incident,such as a police shooting,everyone likes to comment about what the officer should have done after the fact.No one would ever tell a doctor how to his/her job,but EVERYONE thinks they know the job of a police officer.Unfortunately most people's knowledge of policework is from watching CSI and the Shield.


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## bushidomartialarts (Jan 22, 2011)

SgtMac raises an important point. American culture - broadly speaking - tends to be mistrustful of authority. 

We love our rebels. And that's not a new thing - smugglers were idolized during the years before the revolution, outlaws of the old west were the celebrities of the east coast, prohibition turned being a gangster into a glamour career, and every generation that's had film has had its sneering James Dean.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 22, 2011)

bushidomartialarts said:


> SgtMac raises an important point. American culture - broadly speaking - tends to be mistrustful of authority.
> 
> We love our rebels. And that's not a new thing - smugglers were idolized during the years before the revolution, outlaws of the old west were the celebrities of the east coast, prohibition turned being a gangster into a glamour career, and every generation that's had film has had its sneering James Dean.


 
Absolutely! In fact, the late great Col. Jeff Cooper wrote a treatise along those lines about the inherent character of America called 'The Deadly American' years ago.....it makes some very good points about the American character as it relates to authority and, in particular, violence, compared to other cultures.



And, while I wish folks would have a rational view of police actions, instead of emotional knee-jerk responses........at the same time I would not like to live in a society where folks 'trust' the police, or government in general, too much.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Jan 27, 2011)

I think another element is percecption of how the police force is divided up and how it functions. The media portrayal of American police forces often fails to mark any distinguishing boundaries between a traffic cop, a forensics expert and a SWAT team member. Its all treated as one big glob of badge-wearing gun toting authority. This means its much easier for someone uneducated about the police structure to tar them all with one brush when someone has a bad experience related to law enforcement. Since they all seem like one group to the outsider it makes things like complaint procedures seem redundant. Internal Affairs? They just wear different jackets that's all, I mean a cop is still a cop right. 
*Please do not misinterpret that as my actual opinion. I would prefer not to headbutt my desk*

In both Germany and France I've noticed the perception of law enforcement as being slightly more aware of the police force as a more complex entity, even if only by the tiniest amount. In France you have the Gendarmie and the Police National which are both recognised as seperate entities. The Gendarmie more often than not appear as the friendly officer on the street, the approachable face of authority. The Police National on the other hand are viewed as being people you let get their job done and only approach for larger trouble. Now the fact that these seperate groups are recognised I feel helps prevent hostility towards the whole.
I'm not saying that it doesn't happen that people don't just go "Booooo Police!", just that familiarity with the organisational differences helps make that less likely.
And despite the fact that the American police force is just as varied in roles and departments, people fail to recognise that due to media portrayal and lack of education on the subject.


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## kiai (Jan 27, 2011)

Being the strongarm of the Government, which has its own agendas, I'm afraid that I just can't really bring myself to trust the police.  I see it as an institution which gives people power over OTHER people, with inadequate vetting - no process currently exists to ensure that people are joining up for the right reasons and have the appropriate mentality, despite whatever training/qualifications are required.  I say this in light of today finding out that "Community Support Officers" in the UK now have powers of arrest - this I find scary, they are far less experienced (and thus effectively vetted) than proper police officers.

My main issue with the police, however, is their use of threat and force to control our own personal life choices - namely the "War" on drugs.  To think that these people can come home at night, finding satisfaction that they have prevented people from being able to explore their own psyche, have a fun time how they wish (in a victimless manner) or even self-medicate (MANY of the illegal drugs out there, such as MDMA, Cannabis & LSD can have great medical use) frankly sickens me.

But the day when this freak show called Prohibition ends, I think I'll have a good bit more of respect for and credulity in the police.


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## crushing (Jan 27, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> In the US it seems to be the complete opposite. US friends of mine tell their kids not to talk to the police unless they are forced to, tell them not to trust them, and deny them whatever they are asking if they are asking without a warrant. Many Americans here post exactly the same thing. Such a thing would be unheard of over here among the general law abiding citizenry.
> 
> What are your thoughts or perspective on this?



One of my favorite memories from my small town USA childhood was when a few of us kids from the neighborhood would ride our bicycles up to the local cop and ask him to use the radar detector to see how fast we could ride our bikes.

I don't recall my parents ever warning me not to talk to the police.  I've never warned my children about talking to the police.

A few years ago a local officer was having a garage sale.  He was sort of a neighbor.  He lived on the same block, but around the corner.  I stopped by to check out what he had for sale and he invited me in to his home to show me some of the remodeling he had done on his new house.

I partied a couple times with the Sheriff's son and may have engaged in some under-aged drinking and cruising the town.  I wondered at the time if we had done something wrong and got caught if we would be in more or less trouble because of his relationship.  lol

If people must continuously tread more and more carefully for fear that some authority figure is going to play some gotcha game and put them away for 15 years for taking a picture, you will see those people withdraw from having a good relationship with law enforcement and instead become more concerned about CYA.


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## crushing (Jan 27, 2011)

VegasM4 said:


> One big problem is that most Americans get their information from the media which is generally anti-police.the only thing they know about an incident is what the media decides to tell them.Officers do great things every day from catching bad guys to delivering babies.Very rarely do you hear about those things on the news.But if a cop is arrested for DUI or there is video of any type of excessive force you can guarantee that it will be headline news and the media will already be saying the officer is guilty.
> Another thing that is aggravating is whenever an officer is involved in a critical incident,such as a police shooting,everyone likes to comment about what the officer should have done after the fact.No one would ever tell a doctor how to his/her job,but EVERYONE thinks they know the job of a police officer.Unfortunately most people's knowledge of policework is from watching CSI and the Shield.



The media must be very different over in your area.  You don't get much more celebrated and portrayed as heroic in the media than simply being a police officer, fireman, or member of the military.

There has been a gradual change in how LEOs are portrayed.  Generally, it used to be that the local police were intelligent and knew what was going on, and some arrogant federal officer would be the bumbling idiot.  These rolls have reversed in the more recent TV programming with the local good ol' boys being the idiots and the feds have to swoop in to make things right.


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