# Ranking



## Shizen (Aug 31, 2006)

Hi everyone I was curios as to how you test for Bujinkan ranking when studying To Shin Do. I have been studying Bujinkan for about two years now but since i have no instructor here i wanted to get a program so that i can continue to progress, I chose the Skh black belt course over Rvd's. But i have seen it said here that Skh gives Bujinkan diplomas. If anyone has any info it would be much appricaited. Thanks


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## Cryozombie (Aug 31, 2006)

Shizen said:
			
		

> Hi everyone I was curios as to how you test for Bujinkan ranking when studying To Shin Do.



You don't.


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## Shizen (Aug 31, 2006)

Good to know. I see alot of your posts and was just curios as to what your backround is in MA?


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## Cryozombie (Sep 1, 2006)

Shizen said:
			
		

> Good to know. I see alot of your posts and was just curios as to what your backround is in MA?



Little of this, little of that.  Ive had exposure to training in quite a few arts, the only things I've studied worth mention (meaning I put any real time into) were Hapkido for almost 3 years, and BBT for 4 so far, which is what I currently train in.  But I've done some TKD (for about 3 months), some Kyokishinkai when I was down at Ft Benning for a couple weeks with another guy. Couple Arnis seminars here and there... mostly stuff I looked at when I was trying to find what I wanted to do.  I also  crosstrained with the BJJ guy who taught at the hapkido school I attened for a couple months, but then I left that school.


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## Aikironin (Sep 1, 2006)

I think mainly that regardless of what way you train for your black belt, you would be better served by testing in your system.  I am not a BBT or TSD practitioner, per se.  But imagine that you are SKH or RVD and a potential shodan wants to test with you, but didn't want to train with you?  What would you do?  I would definitely decline testing you, as you are not my student.  If you trained TSD, either Home study or in the Dojo, you are essentially SKH's student, likewise with RVD.  This is essentially a universal axiom.  You would test where you train, or if you "crossed over" similiar organizations (ITF vs. WTF, USAF vs. ASU) there would be some 'feeling out' of that student before any promotion.  Remember, that video testing, also somewhat gives that examination board a cross section of your progress over the years, and showing up for your in person Shodan that examiner should ideally have a sense of who you are.  Not just a guy who wants a Bujinkan shodan but with a TSD background.  And I would be even more hestiant with 2 posts to ask a guy with 5000 posts what his background is.  Maybe that is just me.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 1, 2006)

Aikironin said:
			
		

> And I would be even more hestiant with 2 posts to ask a guy with 5000 posts what his background is.  Maybe that is just me.



**** I dont care... what do those 5000 posts mean?  I know how to run off at the mouth.

lol


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## stephen (Sep 1, 2006)

Shizen said:
			
		

> Hi everyone I was curios as to how you test for Bujinkan ranking when studying To Shin Do. I have been studying Bujinkan for about two years now but since i have no instructor here i wanted to get a program so that i can continue to progress, I chose the Skh black belt course over Rvd's. But i have seen it said here that Skh gives Bujinkan diplomas. If anyone has any info it would be much appricaited. Thanks




If you've been in the Bujinkan for two years why not just ask your shidoshi what he thinks you should do to continue your training?


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## Shizen (Sep 1, 2006)

I would but i do not live close to any shidoshi. there is a guy who has second dan close to me but as of now he is not activly training. Also the closest dojo to me is about ten hours away, and i am still looking into it to see if its valid. I did drive down to one that was about 14 hours away but the dojo had moved when i got there and i could not find there address .


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## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2006)

Speaking of Bujinkan testing, I don't believe there are any "official" tests until 5th Dan and that can only be taken in Japan AFAIK.  However, some Bujinkan  instructors have created their own curriculums and tests such as RVD.  Something to consider when searching for answers about testing.


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## Kreth (Sep 1, 2006)

Shizen said:
			
		

> I would but i do not live close to any shidoshi. there is a guy who has second dan close to me but as of now he is not activly training. Also the closest dojo to me is about ten hours away, and i am still looking into it to see if its valid. I did drive down to one that was about 14 hours away but the dojo had moved when i got there and i could not find there address .


It would be easier to help you out if you posted a location. There's a lot of Bujinkan instructors out there that don't advertise, but someone here may know of a dojo in your area.


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## Shizen (Sep 1, 2006)

Sorry about that, i live in Utah near Salt lake. and looked on winjutsu for dojos. But if anone knows of anyone closer that Boise, ID or Tempe,AZ please tell.


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## Kreth (Sep 1, 2006)

Shizen said:
			
		

> Sorry about that, i live in Utah near Salt lake. and looked on winjutsu for dojos. But if anone knows of anyone closer that Boise, ID or Tempe,AZ please tell.


Here's one.


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## Shizen (Sep 1, 2006)

Yup i live right by him. But as i said before he is not currently traing right now. But i did learn the kihon happo from one his his freinds who is a fourth dan now and is going to test for fifth when he can. but he is in the military and is only around maybe once a year.


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## Aikironin (Sep 1, 2006)

a quick question...bigshadow stated that there are no official tests until godan, so my question is this:  Is there a standardized acceptance of rank amongst Bujinkan?  i.e. Does Soke Hatsumi sign every yudansha certificate or just 5th and above?  For example lets say Shizen gets his shodan from RVD or whomever, would any other Bujinkan dojo accept that rank?  I ask this as in Aikido (my art) this was quite a problem in the 70's and 80's.  Then Doshu standardized by signing every yudansha certificate from any dojo that was Aikikai(hombu) affiliate.  Was just wondering how Bujinkan handled this.


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## Kreth (Sep 1, 2006)

Aikironin said:
			
		

> a quick question...bigshadow stated that there are no official tests until godan, so my question is this: Is there a standardized acceptance of rank amongst Bujinkan? i.e. Does Soke Hatsumi sign every yudansha certificate or just 5th and above? For example lets say Shizen gets his shodan from RVD or whomever, would any other Bujinkan dojo accept that rank? I ask this as in Aikido (my art) this was quite a problem in the 70's and 80's. Then Doshu standardized by signing every yudansha certificate from any dojo that was Aikikai(hombu) affiliate. Was just wondering how Bujinkan handled this.


All rank certificates are issued from the Honbu Dojo. Some instructors issue their own as well.


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## Dale Seago (Sep 1, 2006)

Shizen said:
			
		

> Yup i live right by him. But as i said before he is not currently traing right now.



That's too bad, Bill Hartman is good folks. But not everyone advertises, and there's a student of mine who lives in Salt Lake City and teaches in the area, Eric Martin. He got his start with the Bujinkan in my dojo when the Navy stationed him here for 3 years; then he got out and went home to Utah. He also trained a lot while here with Bill Atkins, and for several years now he's been bringing both Bill and me to Utah for seminars. He also trains with other seniors when he can, such as Abi Allen. I recommend him highly. You can reach him at ericmartin969@hotmail.com.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 1, 2006)

Aikironin said:
			
		

> Is there a standardized acceptance of rank amongst Bujinkan?


A Bujinkan rank is a Bujinkan rank and it is recognized by  any Bujinkan instructor AFAIK.


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## Shizen (Sep 1, 2006)

Thank you so much for that address. i just sent him an email 
thank you


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## lalom (Sep 2, 2006)

Shizen,

I understand that most of who have responded to you are Bujinkan practitioners.  I thought I'd give you a response from the TSD side of things.  

Firstly, you are a Bujinkan practitioner, and have been for two years from what I am reading.  I think these guys are right in completely exhausting all your measures in finding someone in your area.  If after that, you conclude that there is absolutely possible teacher in your area of residence, then your initial decision is, IMO, understandable.  

Secondly, you can receive Bujinkan certificates while using the TSD curriculum.  These certs are signed by Hatumi Soke.  I have personally spoken with James Norris at Dayton Quest Center regarding this and I have an email from him about the protocol.   If you have any further questions, please feel free to email or PM me directly.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 3, 2006)

lalom said:


> Secondly, you can receive Bujinkan certificates while using the TSD curriculum.



*Sigh*


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## jks9199 (Sep 3, 2006)

Aikironin said:


> And I would be even more hestiant with 2 posts to ask a guy with 5000 posts what his background is. Maybe that is just me.


 
While I agree with the majority of your post... I've got to take issue with the logic here.

Raw numbers of posts don't necessarily mean much, on any message board.  Sometimes, two members of a forum will get into a exchange that's better suited to email, and post 20 or more times in a day...but they're not really imparting information to anyone else.  Or, there are always those people who have to add a comment, even if it amounts to "what he said!".  On one forum that I participate in, many members feel it necessary to award reputation points & post when they do...  Again -- that could inflate the numbers of posts.

On the other end of the equation, since this is a ninjutsu board...  Hatsumi (forgive any errors of etiquette; they're unintentional) could i theory sign up tomorrow and start posting.  Despite his acknowledged mastery and knowledge -- he'd have very few posts!  Would that mean he's not credible?

The best advice (often in real life as well as message boards) is to assess a person's input based on what you see and what they say.  I've made no secret in my very few posts on these particular threads (I post more in some of the more general areas) that I don't and never have trained in any of the current forms of ninjutsu/taijutsu; it's just something that I was once fascinated by.  And I find the discussions here to be very interesting.


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## Aikironin (Sep 3, 2006)

You are right raw numbers don't mean much, but if one takes the time to read the forums and check things before asking a question, a) more than likely one will determine who has valid things to say  like and who really doesn't  and b) odds are good a certain question has been asked before.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 4, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> On the other end of the equation, since this is a ninjutsu board... Hatsumi (forgive any errors of etiquette; they're unintentional) could i theory sign up tomorrow and start posting. Despite his acknowledged mastery and knowledge -- he'd have very few posts! Would that mean he's not credible?


 
Though of course, he is unable to write in English, has not been able to do so before and very likely is not going to be able to in the future.


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## eyebeams (Sep 4, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> *Sigh*



Is this sigh because it's untrue, or because you personally don't fancy it?

It's either possible to get Bujinkan rank through Quest or it isn't. I am as suspicious of the vague dissent about this from Buinkan practitioners as I am of Quest's vagueness about how this "protocol" is implemented. So unless each party shows their hands and describes, factually, what the deal is, this discussion is useless.


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## Don Roley (Sep 4, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> It's either possible to get Bujinkan rank through Quest or it isn't.



It is not.

Go ahead and ask Hatsumi. It may be true that in the past that Bujinkan rank has been handed out by Hayes. That does not mean that Hayes got them directly from Hatsumi. And if you had heard some of the things that I have heard here in Japan, you would not be betting heavily on people in Toshindo being able to get rank in Bujinkan for very long- if ever again.

There is a lot going on, and I do not have the full picture. Nor can I point people to ways they can confirm what I know for themselves. But if you want to get into Toshindo in order to get rank in another art I would not think you will be happy at the events coming up very soon.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> It is not.
> 
> Go ahead and ask Hatsumi. It may be true that in the past that Bujinkan rank has been handed out by Hayes. That does not mean that Hayes got them directly from Hatsumi. And if you had heard some of the things that I have heard here in Japan, you would not be betting heavily on people in Toshindo being able to get rank in Bujinkan for very long- if ever again.
> 
> There is a lot going on, and I do not have the full picture. Nor can I point people to ways they can confirm what I know for themselves. But if you want to get into Toshindo in order to get rank in another art I would not think you will be happy at the events coming up very soon.


 
Bottom line is that it is known that Hatsumi Soke has taken down Steve Hayes Judan tile and in the past he has told people not to train with him.  I do not understand how the message could not be clearer.


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## eyebeams (Sep 4, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Bottom line is that it is known that Hatsumi Soke has taken down Steve Hayes Judan tile and in the past he has told people not to train with him. I do not understand how the message could not be clearer.



That would be from Hatsumi allegedly sending certificates after the quasi-sorta-hamon incident. It would also come from the fact that stripping Hayes of his judan does not magically get rid of every ranking he has issued, including those of anyone able to issue rank who may be under him. As Toshindo rank is apparently given separately, I don't see how a Toshindo ranking makes a difference, especially given the fact that there are many, many Bujinkan practitioners with rankings in (and who still actively participate in) other arts.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2006)

Personally this issue does not affect me *one bit*.  Steve Hayes did alot for the Bujinkan but he has also done things that have hurt it. (or at least not helped it ie. misinformation)

All I know coming out of Japan is that he is not Bujinkan at this time and his Judan tile was removed.  That is enough for me.  I still enjoyed his books even with the obvious mistakes and he certainly was instrumental in getting alot of people into the Bujinkan.  Those factors make me still appreciate what he did.  Unfortuantely he seems to have moved away from the Bujinkan and that is okay too. (it is his choice after all)


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## Cryozombie (Sep 4, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> Is this sigh because it's untrue, or because you personally don't fancy it?


 
How about because I know the can of worms that post opened up.

My personal knowlage, right or wrong, is this:

I asked one of the Shidoshi who is with Hatsumi on a regular basis, He told me Hatsumi said TO HIM that Toshindo is Not Bujinakn, and Bujinkan practitioners should not study Toshindo.

So AFAIK Toshindo cannot give Bujinkan ranks... but that wasnt the reason for the sigh.  I'm with Brian, it doesnt effect me at all... so I dont really care... and wish it had not been brought up, AGAIN, but rather the old posts about it be read.


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## Aikironin (Sep 4, 2006)

essentially I have found that most political things don't really affect me at all.  Just like what Brian said.  Things tend to be things discussed ad nauseum by people who "heard" such and such or "read" somewhere that... and the list goes on.  When I was a junior student in the arts I used to ask my instructor about these sorts of things, and he would always reply, I will tell you when you are older.  And when I got older he never did, and by that time I didn't really care either.  What matters is that you train, and that you have a good relationship with your sensei, and dojo mates.  The rest of this crap comes and goes, but your training should not.  If you have a strong relationship with Hatsumi, great.  If you follow Hayes' teachings, good for you as well.  Unless you are one of the lucky few who trains under these men directly, don't worry about it, just train in whatever art you train in.  Both of these men have very long shadows that we most likely will never eclipse and so shouldn't speculate as to their agendas and relationships with one another.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 4, 2006)

Aikironin said:


> If you have a strong relationship with Hatsumi, great.  If you follow Hayes' teachings, good for you as well.  Unless you are one of the lucky few who trains under these men directly, don't worry about it, just train in whatever art you train in.  Both of these men have very long shadows that we most likely will never eclipse and so shouldn't speculate as to their agendas and relationships with one another.



I agree... what I don't understand, and maybe some Toshindo guys can enlighten me...

Whats with the desire for all the TSD guys to have Bujinkan AND Toshindo rank certs?  Do you need 2?  It doesnt make sense to me, in a way that Studying say, Karate with the American Karate Association of America, and getting your ranks from them, but then going to the Japanese Karate Association of Japan and asking for rank certs from them...

What purpose does it serve, other than the Ego gratification of saying "I have rank in 2 arts!" when you've only studied one?


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## jks9199 (Sep 4, 2006)

Aikironin said:


> essentially I have found that most political things don't really affect me at all.  Just like what Brian said.  Things tend to be things discussed ad nauseum by people who "heard" such and such or "read" somewhere that... and the list goes on.  When I was a junior student in the arts I used to ask my instructor about these sorts of things, and he would always reply, I will tell you when you are older.  And when I got older he never did, and by that time I didn't really care either.  What matters is that you train, and that you have a good relationship with your sensei, and dojo mates.



One of the greatest disillusionments in my life was moving up in my system, and learning of and having to participate in (to some degree -- I stay out of as much as I can!) the politics.

Sadly, any organization will develop politics as time goes by...  What I've found important is staying true to my teacher, and thereby staying true to his teacher.  And to (sometimes) distinguish between the art and the artists...


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## eyebeams (Sep 5, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> I agree... what I don't understand, and maybe some Toshindo guys can enlighten me...
> 
> Whats with the desire for all the TSD guys to have Bujinkan AND Toshindo rank certs? Do you need 2? It doesnt make sense to me, in a way that Studying say, Karate with the American Karate Association of America, and getting your ranks from them, but then going to the Japanese Karate Association of Japan and asking for rank certs from them...
> 
> What purpose does it serve, other than the Ego gratification of saying "I have rank in 2 arts!" when you've only studied one?



So you'll be raising similar objections to Phil Legare (Shinken Taijutsu), Richard Van Donk (FMA) and their organizations, right?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 5, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> So you'll be raising similar objections to Phil Legare (Shinken Taijutsu), Richard Van Donk (FMA) and their organizations, right?


 
What I can say is this...it always fascinates me how all these little "Bujinkans within the Bujinkan" seem to appear from time to time.


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## Don Roley (Sep 5, 2006)

Aikironin said:


> essentially I have found that most political things don't really affect me at all.  Just like what Brian said.  Things tend to be things discussed ad nauseum by people who "heard" such and such or "read" somewhere that... and the list goes on.



Well in this case, the original poster really wanted to know if he could continue to get ranked in Bujinkan while training in Toshindo. So it does kind of have an affect on him. Telling him that he should not care and just go to training is not the best thing since it may have a huge impact on him later on.

If you really do not believe what you hear, then you need to go to the source. You should not ignore everything you hear on the internet when the problem might be as large as this. Instead you should try to get the best answer you can _before_ you commit to training.

There are ways of writing directly to Hatsumi. You need to write the letter in Japanese- but that can be done with the help of a Japanese  foriegn exchange student studying at a local university. Most will be willing to translate a simple letter into Japanese for about the cost of a double latte and a chance to ask you questions about English. Many just want frineds and someone they can call on when they get over their heads with English. There are other details, but the language one is the biggest problem. If you really care about the matter, you should take the time to ask Hatsumi himself if Toshindo is Bujinkan, if you can get rank in Bujinkan for your Toshindo experiences and everything else that you think might imact your training down the line.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 5, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> So you'll be raising similar objections to Phil Legare (Shinken Taijutsu), Richard Van Donk (FMA) and their organizations, right?



I dont know the deal with Phil Legare, the RVD issue isnt QUITE the same.

I dont think there is anything wrong with studying multiple arts, BTW, but when you study one art, and then look for "free" rank in another organization because its art is similar... thats what I am questioning the validity of.


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## eyebeams (Sep 5, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> I dont know the deal with Phil Legare, the RVD issue isnt QUITE the same.
> 
> I dont think there is anything wrong with studying multiple arts, BTW, but when you study one art, and then look for "free" rank in another organization because its art is similar... thats what I am questioning the validity of.



I think that it's now time for the Toshindo people to come out and explain exactly how Bujinkan training works in their org, since this is not at all clear to me.


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## Aikironin (Sep 5, 2006)

eyebeams said:


> I think that it's now time for the Toshindo people to come out and explain exactly how Bujinkan training works in their org, since this is not at all clear to me.


 

I think we need to realize what Mr. Roley was saying when he said

"Well in this case, the original poster really wanted to know if he could continue to get ranked in Bujinkan while training in Toshindo." 

and not an attack on Toshindo Practitioners to defend their style's use of Bujinkan.  As at best, they are practitioners of the art, not the orginator of it.


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## lalom (Sep 5, 2006)

As Don Roley mentioned, the original poster wanted to know if he could get ranked in Bujinkan if he trained in To-Shin Do.  However, I think the reason for him asking was because he couldn't find a Bujinkan instructor reasonably close enough for him.  

I don't think he was desiring to rank in To-Shin Do, at least from what I gather in his post.  He only wanted to rank in Bujinkan, not both arts.


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## Shizen (Sep 5, 2006)

I don't think he was desiring to rank in To-Shin Do, at least from what I gather in his post. He only wanted to rank in Bujinkan, not both arts.[/quote]

This is correct. I purchased the To Shin Do course because i wanted a course that I could easily learn from and was taught well. I was not interested in ranking when i bought it, otherwise I would have bought the RVD set. But after seeing how both him and SKH taught things on video i liked SKH approach better which is why i bought it. But i heard that with SKH coarse you could get Bujinkan ranking so i had to ask. But in this I found a good group to train with now that I did not know existed until this thead. Thank you


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## eyebeams (Sep 6, 2006)

Aikironin said:


> I think we need to realize what Mr. Roley was saying when he said
> 
> "Well in this case, the original poster really wanted to know if he could continue to get ranked in Bujinkan while training in Toshindo."
> 
> and not an attack on Toshindo Practitioners to defend their style's use of Bujinkan. As at best, they are practitioners of the art, not the orginator of it.



Actually, I think it's still relevant to talk about how Buj. rank works in the Quest org for general edification's sake. Threads on message boards are not just for the guy who asked the question in the first place, but are springboards for general discussion and revelation, after all.


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## MrFunnieman (Sep 9, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> I agree... what I don't understand, and maybe some Toshindo guys can enlighten me...
> 
> What purpose does it serve, other than the Ego gratification of saying "I have rank in 2 arts!" when you've only studied one?


 
Techno,

I am sure it's mostly ego, but if "I" was still studying TSD and wanted a Bujinkan cert. it would be to feel connected to TSD's roots.  My experience in Dayton was that the students felt there were still under the umbrella of Bujinkan and wanted to have that connection.  The other plausible explanation I would think would be for those that like trianing in TSD but also trained with BBT groups on the side and wanted to substantiate that training.  Purely hypothetical reasoning.

MrFunnieman


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## shiro (Sep 12, 2006)

Note Skh does not! issue Bujinkan rank through any home study course(RVD does) He does have home study courses for his classical warrior arts that he issues cert in which states it is a kasumi an art rank cert in taijutsu,bojutsu e.t.s. but not in each ryu ha like some have said exsample
Toshin do Kasumi an Kukishinden ryu Bojutsu kihon


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## lalom (Sep 12, 2006)

Shiro, sorry. You are incorrect in your first sentence.  SKH has indeed issued Bujinkan diplomas while using the TSD video curriculum.  I have a personal email that tells me so exactly.  In fact, if my recollection serves me correctly, an old poster on this forum, JibranKhan, used to do it while stationed in Bangladesh.  I don't know if he is still doing it or not.


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## shiro (Sep 12, 2006)

I think you have read something wrong. if you read on the web page in the courses it tells you  that you can test for Kasumi an rank in the classical or Toshin do ranks it does not say this no where about Bujinkan cert through Homestudy maybe some one made a mistake in the email you got. to the best of my knowledge you can test long distance in only Toshin do or Kasumi an courses Not Bujinkan call the Honbu.
I just wanted to give the facts it is all on the web page If you take the Shadows of iga class you can choose to get Cert in Bujinkan rank.
Have a good day


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## lalom (Sep 12, 2006)

I have read nothing wrong.  This is how the Dayton Quest Center described the process in an email I have (paraphrased):

Begin training using the 12 DVD Black Belt course.

When it comes to testing for "Earth" test certificate for blue belt rank, ask for 6th Kyu Bujinkan dojo certificate.

When it comes to "Water" test to red belt, ask for 5th Kyu Bujinkan certificate.

Green belt test is for 4th Kyu Bujinkan cert.

Take the Ninpo Taijutsu Kihon course for 3rd Kyu Bujinkan cert.

2nd & 1st Kyu & Shodan must be tested for in person with Mr. Hayes.


Why someone would need or desire to do this I don't quite know.  I think you either want a To-Shin do rank or a Bujinkan rank.  Not both.


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## shiro (Sep 13, 2006)

Your ranks /elements are off
Chi- white, yellow,yellow black stripe
Sui- blue/white stripe,blue,blue/black stripe
Ka- red/white stripe,red,red with black stripe
Fu- Green/white stripe,Green,Green/black stripe
Ku- Brown/white stripe,Brown,Brown/blackstripe(To-Shin Do Wikipedia)
And the Kihon Happo are all in there.
I am not trying to argue just throwing in facts not personal feelings
Have a great day


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## lalom (Sep 13, 2006)

shiro said:


> Your ranks /elements are off
> Chi- white, yellow,yellow black stripe
> Sui- blue/white stripe,blue,blue/black stripe
> Ka- red/white stripe,red,red with black stripe
> ...


 
Shiro,

Please sir.  Slow down.  The dojo curriculum in a Quest Dojo is as you have stated.  However, when one chooses to use the DVD curriculum the white stripe/black stripe belts are not utilized.  It merely uses the solid belt ranks.  Here they are:

White
Blue (yes, it skips yellow)
Red
Green
Brown
Black (must be tested in person)


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