# Whips?



## MaartenSFS (May 31, 2007)

I recently got into whipping spinning tops and after I hit myself once had a martial brain fart. Whips are the only area where I am completely at a loss of information. Does anyone think whips are an effective self defense weapon?


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## Sukerkin (May 31, 2007)

Short answer, no, Indiana Jones not withstanding :lol:.

Long answer, as with any weapon, it depends on the environment of engagement and the skill of the wielder.  

However, my guess (and it is just a guess) is that the size of whip that could be conceivably carried for self defence purposes would be more likey to enrage a would-be assailant than stop them.

A razor tipped cat-o-nine-tails on the other hand :shudders:.


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## OUMoose (May 31, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Short answer, no, Indiana Jones not withstanding :lol:.
> 
> Long answer, as with any weapon, it depends on the environment of engagement and the skill of the wielder.
> 
> ...


Hehe!

Another point to think about would be most self-defense oriented weapons are of a type that can be explained away as a tool or job-related implement.  Unless you're a lion tamer, or Dr. Jones, you're going to have a hard time explaining away a 10' bullwhip.


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## bakxierboxer (May 31, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I recently got into whipping spinning tops and after I hit myself once had a martial brain fart. Whips are the only area where I am completely at a loss of information. Does anyone think whips are an effective self defense weapon?



Actually, an 8-foot Bucheimer works pretty well....
Still have mine and it's now about 35 years old.
Folded in 3rds, it can be draped over your shoulder under as little as a denim jacket with little sign that it's there... learning "how to stand"  is the "finishing touch".

In use, it's seldom deployed at full length. Coiled in 1/4 or 1/3 length it does surprisingly nasty things to opponents when used at the end of CLF-style whipping punches. When they decide it's better to run, THEN you can open it up if you still feel "the need".
The coiled usage also makes it rather handy when running through a melee something like the "Chinese Boxer" in "55 Days to Peking".... still more CLF action.

Pete


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## CuongNhuka (May 31, 2007)

Actuly there is a great combat application. Anyone here wear a tie for work? what about a belt? Ever think about that? I were a belt every day and a tie on wednesdays, I've given it some thought. Granted, I'd try to use it as a controlling device (more like a Japanese Hojo), then a whip per sae


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## tellner (Jun 1, 2007)

Sukerkin, there are whips and there are whips. A shotted quirt can be deadly, and it's useful in close quarters. The sjambok, both traditional and the SA Police version, is a terrible weapon that can cut to the bone and remove fingers.


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## redfang (Jun 1, 2007)

self defense maybe not, recreation, well...

though, as weapons of opportunity, some whipping type items could be useful. how about a two foot long thick rubber strap with a hook on the end, like for tying a load, i can see some potential. its the type of thing one might have in a car and put to effective use.


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## kaizasosei (Jun 1, 2007)

checkout beltfighting.  depending on the beltbuckel and the length with which one decides to swing or whip at, belts can be devastating weapons...
  also really dangerous for self..careful. i often used to practice with the buckel in hand as support. even then some belts have these point metal finishes on the tips,,can be very painfull. shockingly painful with goosebumps that never go away or rather keep coming back!!!..
one can also trap, block or tieup

j


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 1, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> Short answer, no, Indiana Jones not withstanding :lol:.:


 Well, I do understand that the whip cannot stretch to impossible lengths when swinging on ****. =P



Sukerkin said:


> Long answer, as with any weapon, it depends on the environment of engagement and the skill of the wielder.


 As with anything, if it's worth doing, I do it well.



Sukerkin said:


> However, my guess (and it is just a guess) is that the size of whip that could be conceivably carried for self defence purposes would be more likey to enrage a would-be assailant than stop them.


 
Can't even the longer whips just be rolled up and hung on your belt or around your waist or carried in a shoulder bag?



OUMoose said:


> Another point to think about would be most self-defense oriented weapons are of a type that can be explained away as a tool or job-related implement. Unless you're a lion tamer, or Dr. Jones, you're going to have a hard time explaining away a 10' bullwhip.


 
True, but if it can be carried concealed and it can effectively be used for non-lethal force (As well), then I still advocate its use. 



CuongNhuka said:


> Actuly there is a great combat application. Anyone here wear a tie for work? what about a belt? Ever think about that? I were a belt every day and a tie on wednesdays, I've given it some thought. Granted, I'd try to use it as a controlling device (more like a Japanese Hojo), then a whip per sae


 
That wasn't really what I was getting at. I don't believe in bandanas, et cetera.



tellner said:


> Sukerkin, there are whips and there are whips. A shotted quirt can be deadly, and it's useful in close quarters. The sjambok, both traditional and the SA Police version, is a terrible weapon that can cut to the bone and remove fingers.


 
I have several coldsteel sjamboks. Although certainly effective for deterring arseholes, they cannot cut to the bone and remove fingers. I have experimented extensively with them and found that although very useful for self-defense, they cannot be conveniently carried (I.E. You can get to it quickly in a dangerous situation). That's why I developed my Bagunshu (Telescopic baton + "Battoujutsu") system.



redfang said:


> self defense maybe not, recreation, well...
> 
> though, as weapons of opportunity, some whipping type items could be useful. how about a two foot long thick rubber strap with a hook on the end, like for tying a load, i can see some potential. its the type of thing one might have in a car and put to effective use.


 
I could see that as being dangerous... - to myself. 



kaizasosei said:


> checkout beltfighting. depending on the beltbuckel and the length with which one decides to swing or whip at, belts can be devastating weapons...
> also really dangerous for self..careful. i often used to practice with the buckel in hand as support. even then some belts have these point metal finishes on the tips,,can be very painfull. shockingly painful with goosebumps that never go away or rather keep coming back!!!..
> one can also trap, block or tieup


 
Again, I have seen especially a lot of Chinese weapons similar to this (Shuangjiegun (Nunchaku), three-section staff, meteor hammer, rope dart, chain dart (manriki gusari), et all)and I think that the hazard is more to yourself. For "fighting air" it looks really awesome, but if you actually hit something you will lose all control and kill yourself or, if you are lucky, just get your **** kicked.

I was more talking of the standard "bull whip" and variants. Something you can get accurate with without killing yourself (Though I know you can hit yourself with those too).


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 1, 2007)

You have to remember, weapons like the Meteor hammer do work if you have one and understand how to use it. If couldn't be used in real fight, it wasn't conituned. Simply because it was, pointless continue to use in practice.
And I didnt say bandana. I said belt (like that thing you use to keep your pants up) and tie (like that thing you wear with a suit).


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## tellner (Jun 1, 2007)

I'm taking it on faith for the Cold Steel versions. My faith was misplaced. The hippo hide ones - of which I've had three - definitely can. I've removed chicken feet (the chickens were alread dead) with them and cut right through pork shoulder. Do the Cold Steel ones have a bevel and a distal taper?

The shotted quirt whether braided or made from a bull's pizzle can end up being more a weighted lash than a whip. Very nasty, especially if it's a braided quirt with a wire core and the the ends of the wire exposed. Sort of a pocket knout.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 2, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> You have to remember, weapons like the Meteor hammer do work if you have one and understand how to use it. If couldn't be used in real fight, it wasn't conituned. Simply because it was, pointless continue to use in practice.
> And I didnt say bandana. I said belt (like that thing you use to keep your pants up) and tie (like that thing you wear with a suit).


 
I don't agree with you on the meteor hammer. I believe that even if ones ability to use it was at a very high skill level that is would still have been nearly useless for actual combat. You have to remember that half of especially CMA styles were made up to scare more than fight. Intimidation can go very far.

As far as the tie: It's basically the same as a bandana and you were talking about tying them up, which is one of the major uses for bandanas, hence my conclusion.

About the belt I think it could be effective, though it depends on how you use it (I.E, Not like a meteor hammer).


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 2, 2007)

tellner said:


> I'm taking it on faith for the Cold Steel versions. My faith was misplaced. The hippo hide ones - of which I've had three - definitely can. I've removed chicken feet (the chickens were alread dead) with them and cut right through pork shoulder. Do the Cold Steel ones have a bevel and a distal taper?
> 
> The shotted quirt whether braided or made from a bull's pizzle can end up being more a weighted lash than a whip. Very nasty, especially if it's a braided quirt with a wire core and the the ends of the wire exposed. Sort of a pocket knout.


 
I'm not sure what a bevel and a distal taper are, but you can type sjambok on google images and find a photo of one in a split second. I have a 36" and two 42" (Which were shipped to my mum's house on another continent and she won't post them to me). The 36" seems like a great semi-rigid weapon and hurts like hell. But if a guerilla warfare commando is trying to kill me I don't think it would make him flinch. If I hit him on the head with my steel baton physiology would ensure my victory, but since the "whip" isn't hard enough (I've heard the 42" is) it doesn't seem to be able to do any major damage within the first several strikes. It sounds like the hippo hides are great, but I'm not willing to kill one to get my hands on the whip version. 

As for the squirt: My goal isn't to cut them into ribbons of unrecognisable flesh, but self defense, though the former sounds o so enjoyable.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 2, 2007)

What about the kind of whips that you can crack as a viable self defense option? All I know is that they sure look fun to play around with. That alone is reason enough to buy one, but if I am to become proficient in it I also want to ensure that if I carry it I can use it when the need arises.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 2, 2007)

Some good and illuminating information here chaps :tup:.  

I'd fogotten you have a fair bit of experience with 'flexible' weapons *tellner* :rei:.

Cheers to the information providers (even if you did prove that I posted in haste with too little thought ... well it *was* in the early hours of the morning ).


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## kaizasosei (Jun 2, 2007)

here in europe where im at now, they have many people flinging around whips in the festivals...those whips are loud..they sound like gunshots.
i think it would really hurt to get hit by one.
  as a weapon, however, i dunno maybe..but the problem is that you need a little distance and preparation before every strike so it would be good if you didn't have to worry about closing the distance and rendering the weapon less useful.   i wouldn't choose it for the  above reasons and also because it seems like such disciplinary strike rather than a finishing or warning strike. of course discipline could be seen as a warning too..but
if i was a guard in some dungeon or something and i had to keep getting up to smack people it would be really helpful to have a whip like that.



j


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## kaizasosei (Jun 2, 2007)

i've never had a exact whip  like that to try but i would imagine that it might be possible to use the whip to cling to stuff by wrapping it around like indiana jones.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 2, 2007)

I just had an Indiana Jones moment today...

I was on the roof (14th storey) practising whipping a half kilogram wooden top and the rope caught up around the top, I tried to pull it away, and it launched high into the sky and then dropped. I immediately ran to the edge and looked down (In the middle of a crowded Chinese pedestrian street). People screamed and a large hole opened in the crowd. After the initial shock wore off they turned to look up and started pointing. I took cover and dared not venture down to retrieve the top. I think I need a new hobby, but the whip theory is sound. I could see it wrapping around objects, but not stretching to ten times its normal length to let me swing over ravines (Though that would be cool). =P

As far as the distance problem, you could carry a secondary weapon, like a telescopic baton, a knife, a gun (Like Indiana?), or even a pen or your fist/feet. And, as was mentioned before, you don't need to use the whole length of the whip to make an effective weapon of it.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 3, 2007)

I just went ahead and purchased a fine specimen today: http://www.hdwsyp.com/rbq/DSC04355.jpg

The best way to find out the weapon's effectiveness is by experimenting with it myself.

By the way, what are the laws regarding whips, as opposed to the harsh laws against my telescopic baton? Can you carry a whip aboard an aeroplane, for example? What are the ramifications for using one for self-defense (Like the one in the photo above)?


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 3, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I just went ahead and purchased a fine specimen today...


Looks like a reasonable starter.
From the photo I can't tell if the handle and body of the whip are articulated. Good  whips usually have a piece that allows the body of the whip to rotate to prevent twisting which gives a kind  of "kick back" or unexpected "twitch" in its movement. Again, a good amount of practice with your own weapon allows familiarity and you develop your own gung in its usage. I also noticed that the "cracker" seems to be rope rather than leather. Hopefully it is easily replaced like the leather ones.



> The best way to find out the weapon's effectiveness is by experimenting with it myself.


True... along with experimenting at wearing/concealing it if that is how you intend to use it.



> By the way, what are the laws regarding whips, as opposed to the harsh laws against my telescopic baton? Can you carry a whip aboard an aeroplane, for example? What are the ramifications for using one for self-defense (Like the one in the photo above)?


That will be somewhat dependent on the experience of law enforcement agencies in the area.  Many parts of the US had "outlaw" motorcycle gangs whose members thought highly of carrying bullwhips and "blacksnake" whips.
This resulted in some restrictive legislation.

In general,it isn't a common tool or dress accessory, so it will cause "some commentary" at the least.  
Some folks like to develop "tricks" with their whips. 
My own favorite was removing a cigarette from a willing victim's mouth.
"Ah! EVERYBODY does that one!"
Not really... I liked to do it dead-on with the "victim" facing me.

Pete


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 3, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> Looks like a reasonable starter.
> From the photo I can't tell if the handle and body of the whip are articulated. Good whips usually have a piece that allows the body of the whip to rotate to prevent twisting which gives a kind of "kick back" or unexpected "twitch" in its movement. Again, a good amount of practice with your own weapon allows familiarity and you develop your own gung in its usage. I also noticed that the "cracker" seems to be rope rather than leather. Hopefully it is easily replaced like the leather ones.


 
It probably isn't articulated and the cracker probably isn't easily replaced. I'm not expecting much for 80&#20803; ($10.something), though if you look closely the quality of the leather seems good. Also, this is a Chinese whip, so I'm not sure why they would make it rope at the end. Leather is probably more brutal, perhaps rope is used to make it more of a "trick whip" and less of a real weapon? Anyways, for my first whip I prefer something like this. It is 2.5 metres long. Is this the right kind of whip to learn how to crack?



bakxierboxer said:


> True... along with experimenting at wearing/concealing it if that is how you intend to use it.


 
Naturally.  I carry my telescopic baton everywhere and "whip it out" when I'm sure no one is looking. If I make it an instinctive habit it will stick.



bakxierboxer said:


> That will be somewhat dependent on the experience of law enforcement agencies in the area. Many parts of the US had "outlaw" motorcycle gangs whose members thought highly of carrying bullwhips and "blacksnake" whips.
> This resulted in some restrictive legislation.
> 
> In general,it isn't a common tool or dress accessory, so it will cause "some commentary" at the least.


 
I don't intend to display it so openly. My meaning was more like: what kind of legal consequences could there be for using a whip to stave off an attacker and perhaps drawing some blood in the process?


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## jks9199 (Jun 3, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I don't intend to display it so openly. My meaning was more like: what kind of legal consequences could there be for using a whip to stave off an attacker and perhaps drawing some blood in the process?


 
It depends on where you are.  Where I live, the question would first be if your actions were indeed self-defense.  If so, the question next becomes whether or not the force you use is reasonable and appropriate to the attack.  But... if your actions don't meet the definition of self defense, you'd be looking at a minimum charge of aggravated assault or malicious wounding.

Self defense laws vary greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and country to country.  Any serious martial artist is more than well advised to spend some time learning the legal underpinnings of self defense in general, and how the principles are interpreted where they live and frequent.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> It depends on where you are. Where I live, the question would first be if your actions were indeed self-defense. If so, the question next becomes whether or not the force you use is reasonable and appropriate to the attack. But... if your actions don't meet the definition of self defense, you'd be looking at a minimum charge of aggravated assault or malicious wounding.
> 
> Self defense laws vary greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and country to country. Any serious martial artist is more than well advised to spend some time learning the legal underpinnings of self defense in general, and how the principles are interpreted where they live and frequent.


 
I agree with you, but which weapon would look better to the judge/jury: An assault rifle, a normal long whip, a telescopic baton, a modified cold steel sjambok (different type of rigid whip with a custom katana-like grip), or a large knife?


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 4, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I don't agree with you on the meteor hammer. I believe that even if ones ability to use it was at a very high skill level that is would still have been nearly useless for actual combat. You have to remember that half of especially CMA styles were made up to scare more than fight. Intimidation can go very far.
> 
> As far as the tie: It's basically the same as a bandana and you were talking about tying them up, which is one of the major uses for bandanas, hence my conclusion.
> 
> About the belt I think it could be effective, though it depends on how you use it (I.E, Not like a meteor hammer).


 
And if they couldn't back it up, they wouldn't be very smart. And, therefore, probably knew some real fighting techniques. And again, if it couldn't be used a fight, they probably wouldn't bother to train it. And I know Shaolin trains in some whip-like weapons, and I doubt your going to say that shaolin is about intimidating your opponents. 
And why wouldnt you use a tie as a controlling device? It's going to be more effective then trying to whip sombody with it


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I agree with you, but which weapon would look better to the judge/jury: An assault rifle, a normal long whip, a telescopic baton, a modified cold steel sjambok (different type of rigid whip with a custom katana-like grip), or a large knife?


Any or none of the above.  Again -- the first issue is whether you were justified in ANY use of force, and then whether the force you used was appropriate to the threat.  There are plenty of threads on this issue...


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## Tez3 (Jun 4, 2007)

I have really tried not to post on this thread, I keep skipping over it on the new thread thing but I can't help myself anymore! Whips! I have a house load of them, so's my daughter. We both ride horses in fact she's a jockey. We have long ones, short ones and middle sized ones and oh the jokes that inspires!!
I forgot this was an American site and spent ages wondering why someone would keep their pants up with a belt then of course the penny dropped, pants to you are trousers to us, pants to us are underwear. You see I knew I shouldn't have posted on here, it's just too easy for my mind to wander off... :whip1:


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 4, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> And if they couldn't back it up, they wouldn't be very smart. And, therefore, probably knew some real fighting techniques. And again, if it couldn't be used a fight, they probably wouldn't bother to train it. And I know Shaolin trains in some whip-like weapons, and I doubt your going to say that shaolin is about intimidating your opponents.


 
Actually, I would say that.




CuongNhuka said:


> And why wouldnt you use a tie as a controlling device? It's going to be more effective then trying to whip sombody with it


 
I didn't say you wouldn't, but I also think controlling devices are highly prone to error and too slow for my tastes.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 4, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Any or none of the above. Again -- the first issue is whether you were justified in ANY use of force, and then whether the force you used was appropriate to the threat. There are plenty of threads on this issue...


 
I can understand that, but surely a weapon that isn't allowed to be carried in the first place, let alone used, would have more severe legal consequences?


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 4, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I have really tried not to post on this thread, I keep skipping over it on the new thread thing but I can't help myself anymore! Whips! I have a house load of them, so's my daughter. We both ride horses in fact she's a jockey. We have long ones, short ones and middle sized ones and oh the jokes that inspires!!
> I forgot this was an American site and spent ages wondering why someone would keep their pants up with a belt then of course the penny dropped, pants to you are trousers to us, pants to us are underwear. You see I knew I shouldn't have posted on here, it's just too easy for my mind to wander off... :whip1:


 
Don't worry. Everyone is allowed their rants and you are hardly the only un-American here.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 4, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I didn't say you wouldn't, but I also think controlling devices are highly prone to error and too slow for my tastes.


 
OK, ignoring the Shaolin hating, it sounds like your looking for some one to say, yes go ahead and carry a cat-o-nine tails, or bull whip. Well, if you feel you need to carry a weapon in any form (meaning somthing you're carrying for no reason other then a weapon), then it might as well be a gun. If you really feel that unsafe were you life, then why bother with a whip. Just carry a hand gun. In the end, your carrying something with the express intent of causing someone serious injury if not death. Then, you might as well go for broke.


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I can understand that, but surely a weapon that isn't allowed to be carried in the first place, let alone used, would have more severe legal consequences?


No... Seperate legal consequences.  In a few cases, maybe a sentencing enhancement for use a firearm or something like that in commission of a felony.  Typically, you'll have a seperate charge for the illegal weapon as well as the assault.

As to civil trials -- anything goes.  There's very little predicting what a jury will do or how they'll view something.  If I had to guess -- if you're carrying a concealed weapon, or blatantly illegal weapon, you'll have to convince the jury that you're not looking for a fight.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 5, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> OK, ignoring the Shaolin hating, it sounds like your looking for some one to say, yes go ahead and carry a cat-o-nine tails, or bull whip. Well, if you feel you need to carry a weapon in any form (meaning somthing you're carrying for no reason other then a weapon), then it might as well be a gun. If you really feel that unsafe were you life, then why bother with a whip. Just carry a hand gun. In the end, your carrying something with the express intent of causing someone serious injury if not death. Then, you might as well go for broke.


 
Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. I don't feel unsafe or even paranoid. But, as they say, better safe than sorry. I will not carry a firearm or knife, though. I prefer blunt weapons where I have the choice or killing, maiming, or intimidation. It's more my character. I prefer to have an equiliser. Never get caught without one. I carry a telescopic baton everyday. The reason that I ask about the whip is that I thought it may be a more law-abiding alternative. Whips are also easy to carry (Except rigid whips) concealed or at least conveniently and while they hurt like hell, are less likely to kill the attacker (Which may or may not be good). And they are fun to play around with and I can always be confident that I am in control of the situation. This is my mindset.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 5, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> No... Seperate legal consequences. In a few cases, maybe a sentencing enhancement for use a firearm or something like that in commission of a felony. Typically, you'll have a seperate charge for the illegal weapon as well as the assault.
> 
> As to civil trials -- anything goes. There's very little predicting what a jury will do or how they'll view something. If I had to guess -- if you're carrying a concealed weapon, or blatantly illegal weapon, you'll have to convince the jury that you're not looking for a fight.


 
Wouw, the world is more complicated than I thought. I suppose that it is better to be tried for assault with a legal weapon. At least I would only break one law, then.  Though I'd rather be tried and sentenced than dead.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 6, 2007)

Rather be caught with it than caught without it.  I thought you'd be pretty safe with your telescopic baton.  Tried and true.  If it ain't broke don't fix it.  I know if someone used a whip on me and didn't debilitate me, it'd make me very sore and angry and I'd really have to hurt their feelings.  If you get good enough to hit a moving target in the eye,  I could definitely see it working well.  I'd stick with the telescopic baton though.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 9, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> If you get good enough to hit a moving target in the eye, I could definitely see it working well.


 
That's my plan.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 10, 2007)

Well boys... It has finally arrived. =D

The first time I went up to the roof to try it during my lunch break I just lightly threw it over my shoulder and almost took my head off. I immediately thought again, hung it over my shoulder, and went straight back to my apartment.

After work I watched about 50 free online videos and cracked it my first try. It was a little fart of a crack, but at least it would have injured something else besides myself.

After about twenty minutes I had already figured out another way to crack it. That is to pull it back along the ground very quick and then instantly pull it forward and over my shoulder. The crack was so loud that birds on another building cried out and flew away. That's when I got too cocky and grazed myself on the neck. Before I called it a day I could actually see where it was going and I was more or less "hitting" the same place everytime.

I haven't had so much fun in a long time and I believe that if one can get accurate and quick with a whip it would be a highly effective self defense weapon. It is also useful to grab it by the middle and swing the front in a figure eight pattern for close distance defense. I'm quite confident that I haven't even scratched the surface of this weapon's potential, but through trial and error I will discover whether or not it can be useful to protect (And amuse) oneself.

I do have several questions, though.

1) Can anyone tell me a website that shows or at least describes different cracking techniques? I have done a search with no good results except to buy books and DVDs, which is a hassle from China. =S

2) Is my whip (Link in one of my first posts) a bullwhip or other? It supposedly came from the Shaolin Temple and is a Chinese whip. It looks like the wooden handle is attached to the thong (Actually going in a ways). Then there is a shorter fall before the popper, which seems to be nylon, though I'm not sure. 

3) If the popper is indeed nylon, where can I buy replacement poppers? Or is it easier to make them?


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 10, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Well boys... It has finally arrived. =D
> 
> The first time I went up to the roof to try it during my lunch break I just lightly threw it over my shoulder and almost took my head off. I immediately thought again, hung it over my shoulder, and went straight back to my apartment.



Heh! "almost" is the operative word.
A not-so-hard-and-fast "rule of thumb" is that you should NOT be so afraid of the whip that you attempt to keep it "away" from yourself.
Using it in that manner causes it to "pull in" towards your body.
Conversely, allowing it to be close to your body allows it to "throw out" away from your body.



> After work I watched about 50 free online videos and cracked it my first try. It was a little fart of a crack, but at least it would have injured something else besides myself.


"Gotta start somewhere."



> After about twenty minutes I had already figured out another way to crack it. That is to pull it back along the ground very quick and then instantly pull it forward and over my shoulder. The crack was so loud that birds on another building cried out and flew away. That's when I got too cocky and grazed myself on the neck. Before I called it a day I could actually see where it was going and I was more or less "hitting" the same place everytime.


Cracking the whip has relatively little to do with its fighting use.
I have to guess that you've heard the term "laying it on"?
Full-length or shortened, use is mostly "laying it on".
A possible "scare tactic" would be to develop a "wall" consisting of perhaps 3 rapid-fire cracks of the whip in a vertical plane immediately (ok, 3 to 4 feet) in front of you.... mostly wrist action from the ground



> I haven't had so much fun in a long time and I believe that if one can get accurate and quick with a whip it would be a highly effective self defense weapon. It is also useful to grab it by the middle and swing the front in a figure eight pattern for close distance defense.


Good.
"Fun" is important, since it'll encourage your practice.
Consider swinging (or striking with) the loaded handle rather than the lightweight "cracker".



> I'm quite confident that I haven't even scratched the surface of this weapon's potential, but through trial and error I will discover whether or not it can be useful to protect (And amuse) oneself.


Lots to do and learn... some of it will always be according to your personality and capabilities.



> 1) Can anyone tell me a website that shows or at least describes different cracking techniques?


"cracking" is essentialy accomplished by moving your wrist to create an "S" that you "send" to travel the length of the whip.
 Any possible way you can make/describe that "S" is a potential "way"/"gung" of/for cracking it.



> 2) Is my whip (Link in one of my first posts) a bullwhip or other?


It actually looks too light for much heavy use.... as against bulls.
OTOH, it can be much like a sheep dog... nipping at a herd of cows and encouraging them to "move along".... "that way".

Other "known" "professional grade" whips?  There was always the old "Blacksnake" whip.... usually slimmer/lighter/longer than a bull-whip and more favored for performances. 
Oh... yeh! It was usually jet-black in color. <g>



> It supposedly came from the Shaolin Temple and is a Chinese whip. It looks like the wooden handle is attached to the thong (Actually going in a ways).


Sounds "low cost"... I'm not sure how long it's going to last.
Then again, "at the price".......



> 3) If the popper is indeed nylon, where can I buy replacement poppers? Or is it easier to make them?


The shipper should be the best source... just hope that the whole thing isn't a come-one so they can get you "hooked into " the actuall money-maker for them.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 10, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> Heh! "almost" is the operative word.
> A not-so-hard-and-fast "rule of thumb" is that you should NOT be so afraid of the whip that you attempt to keep it "away" from yourself.
> Using it in that manner causes it to "pull in" towards your body.
> Conversely, allowing it to be close to your body allows it to "throw out" away from your body.


 
Thanks. I'll remember that. Towards the ends I was getting a good crack in almost every time.



bakxierboxer said:


> Cracking the whip has relatively little to do with its fighting use.
> I have to guess that you've heard the term "laying it on"?
> Full-length or shortened, use is mostly "laying it on".
> A possible "scare tactic" would be to develop a "wall" consisting of perhaps 3 rapid-fire cracks of the whip in a vertical plane immediately (ok, 3 to 4 feet) in front of you.... mostly wrist action from the ground


 
As with most MAs, intimidation can go far indeed. A few cracks will get would-be attackers thinking twice, while an actual hit would be devastating. The wall that you are talking about sounds difficult, but &#28459;&#28459;&#26469; (Man man lai).



bakxierboxer said:


> Consider swinging (or striking with) the loaded handle rather than the lightweight "cracker".


 
That's one thing that I picked up with the Sjambok, but I think my handle is too light to effectively use it as such. It would still hurt, though.



bakxierboxer said:


> "cracking" is essentialy accomplished by moving your wrist to create an "S" that you "send" to travel the length of the whip.
> Any possible way you can make/describe that "S" is a potential "way"/"gung" of/for cracking it.


 
That's basically how I got to the second "technique" from beginning with the overhead. I saw something like a side-arm crack on a video, so I'm going to try that out today. Looks like I'll probably hit my face. =P



bakxierboxer said:


> It actually looks too light for much heavy use.... as against bulls.
> OTOH, it can be much like a sheep dog... nipping at a herd of cows and encouraging them to "move along".... "that way".
> 
> Other "known" "professional grade" whips? There was always the old "Blacksnake" whip.... usually slimmer/lighter/longer than a bull-whip and more favored for performances.
> ...


 
It's not that light, actually, though I'm no expert. Measuring from the butt of the handle to the end of the thong it is 6 feet long and I'm not sure on the weight. From all of the descriptions I found it sounds like a Bullwhip, because it lacks the long handle with a keeper that the Aussie stock whips have and a Blacksnake whip has no handle, though it's possible that it is a special Chinese whip. It is also plaited different, in a checkred pattern as opposed to the normal way/s.

It was cheap as hell. 80&#20803; (7.7 EUROS, $10.4, without S&S) and my first whip, so I wasn't expecting a whole lot. I don't know about the shipper. I think he is just an MA accessories merchant and knows absolutely nothing about it. The leather is a little dry too, so I will read up on how to dress it.


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 10, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Thanks. I'll remember that. Towards the ends I was getting a good crack in almost every time.
> 
> 
> 
> As with most MAs, intimidation can go far indeed. A few cracks will get would-be attackers thinking twice, while an actual hit would be devastating. The wall that you are talking about sounds difficult, but &#28459;&#28459;&#26469; (Man man lai).



I almost forgot... the loudest & most impressive cracks are done by "laying the whip out forward" and "stopping" your arm/wrist to "send" a "c"-shape down the whip.... it's "different" and recoil/recovery for successive moves is more difficult.




> That's one thing that I picked up with the Sjambok, but I think my handle is too light to effectively use it as such. It would still hurt, though.


Operative question is if it's harder than your fist.  It's pretty certain that "hitting wrong" with it won't be the direct cause of any pain to yourself.



> That's basically how I got to the second "technique" from beginning with the overhead. I saw something like a side-arm crack on a video, so I'm going to try that out today. Looks like I'll probably hit my face. =P


Good luck with that.



> It's not that light, actually, though I'm no expert. Measuring from the butt of the handle to the end of the thong it is 6 feet long and I'm not sure on the weight. From all of the descriptions I found it sounds like a Bullwhip, because it lacks the long handle with a keeper that the Aussie stock whips have and a Blacksnake whip has no handle, though it's possible that it is a special Chinese whip. It is also plaited different, in a checkred pattern as opposed to the normal way/s.


You mention later on that it's "dry"... sounds "light" to me.
I used to use Neat's Foot Oil... it'll suck up quite a bit if it's dry, and it can get so "wet" that it also renders it unusable for some time.
The definitions you've run across aren't hard and fast, since there is nothing that says a Blacksnake can't have a handle.
IME, all the better grade whips have handles and rotators.
If the "keeper" you mention is a wrist-loop, that is not a standard on all whips, and I'd as soon remove it if my whip came with one.



> It was cheap as hell. 80&#20803; (7.7 EUROS, $10.4, without S&S) and my first whip, so I wasn't expecting a whole lot. I don't know about the shipper. I think he is just an MA accessories merchant and knows absolutely nothing about it. The leather is a little dry too, so I will read up on how to dress it.


Almost sounds like you should simply put up a supply of replacment whips.
Oil a few and have them ready for use whenever you need a replacement.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 12, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> I almost forgot... the loudest & most impressive cracks are done by "laying the whip out forward" and "stopping" your arm/wrist to "send" a "c"-shape down the whip.... it's "different" and recoil/recovery for successive moves is more difficult.


 
Yesterday it rained and I didn't have a chance to practise but I got a good day in today.  I managed to get the S(I think)-shaped forward crack down quite well and started hitting a plastic pipe with great accuracy and a loud CRACK. That was quite satisfying. =D 

I'll try the C-shape tomorrow.



bakxierboxer said:


> Operative question is if it's harder than your fist. It's pretty certain that "hitting wrong" with it won't be the direct cause of any pain to yourself.
> 
> Good luck with that..


 
I actually only hit myself once today, but it was quite minor. At least when I was practising the forward crack. The side-arm... I have no ideas about it other than that I almost took off me head again.



bakxierboxer said:


> You mention later on that it's "dry"... sounds "light" to me.
> I used to use Neat's Foot Oil... it'll suck up quite a bit if it's dry, and it can get so "wet" that it also renders it unusable for some time.
> The definitions you've run across aren't hard and fast, since there is nothing that says a Blacksnake can't have a handle.
> IME, all the better grade whips have handles and rotators.
> If the "keeper" you mention is a wrist-loop, that is not a standard on all whips, and I'd as soon remove it if my whip came with one.


 
Infact, now that I've done a lot of research about whips I have discovered that for whatever reason my whip lacks a belly. It is, in fact, a belly with no outer layer. I have seen some diagrams and it is plaited the same was as bellies. I guess you were right and that it is a light whip, though I was still able to crack it quite well. It didn't sound like a cannon, though. I may try to apply some dressing later and I'll need to replace the cracker as well.

The keeper I was reffering to is common on stock whips and holds the handle and the thong together. Mine lacks that (The handle is imbedded into the thong) and a wrist loop. I'm not sure what a rotator is, but it probably doesn't have that.



bakxierboxer said:


> Almost sounds like you should simply put up a supply of replacment whips.
> Oil a few and have them ready for use whenever you need a replacement.


 
I think that sounds like a great idea, but I have one question, then. Is the whip that I have suitable enough that I want to buy more? They are cheap, but is the quality also low? I know that cracks are as much the whip as the technique. Until I know that, I may have to make several more purchases.


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 12, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> Yesterday it rained and I didn't have a chance to practise but I got a good day in today.  I managed to get the S(I think)-shaped forward crack down quite well and started hitting a plastic pipe with great accuracy and a loud CRACK. That was quite satisfying. =D
> 
> I'll try the C-shape tomorrow.


The "S" is best for repetitive movements,since it tends to incorporate an "auto-retraction".
The "c", being "laid out" tends not to "come back" without an additional movement.



> I actually only hit myself once today, but it was quite minor. At least when I was practising the forward crack. The side-arm... I have no ideas about it other than that I almost took off me head again.


Most of the self-inflicted stuff is "just that"... tends to come when you're trying to keep the whip away from yourself.
Let it get/stay close and it will tend to "fly out" away from you.



> Infact, now that I've done a lot of research about whips I have discovered that for whatever reason my whip lacks a belly. It is, in fact, a belly with no outer layer.


Not familiar with or forgotten that term... my "whipping days"/usage was mostly in the 1970s.



> I have seen some diagrams and it is plaited the same was as bellies. I guess you were right and that it is a light whip, though I was still able to crack it quite well. It didn't sound like a cannon, though. I may try to apply some dressing later and I'll need to replace the cracker as well.


The plaiting on a high-quality whip tends to be done *around* the core (or 
 "belly"?).



> The keeper I was reffering to is common on stock whips and holds the handle and the thong together. Mine lacks that (The handle is imbedded into the thong) and a wrist loop. I'm not sure what a rotator is, but it probably doesn't have that.


The handle is built around a rotating core, and this prevents "bind" in the body of the whip.



> I think that sounds like a great idea, but I have one question, then. Is the whip that I have suitable enough that I want to buy more? They are cheap, but is the quality also low? I know that cracks are as much the whip as the technique. Until I know that, I may have to make several more purchases.


"Cracking" is almost irrelevant... unless you intend to use it "for-show"/tricks/etc.

As always, "you get what you pay for".
So long as these units "serve a purpose" they'll be adequate.
I have to guess that a high-quality whip these days will run in the $80 to $100 US range.... playing with a whip might easily not be worth that kind of money. let alone buying a "back up" or two.


Pete


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 12, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> The "S" is best for repetitive movements,since it tends to incorporate an "auto-retraction".
> The "c", being "laid out" tends not to "come back" without an additional movement.


 
I wasn't ably to get that one down yesterday, but I almost "mastered" the forward and got pretty good with the overhead. My arm is very sore today, so I may need to back off.



bakxierboxer said:


> Most of the self-inflicted stuff is "just that"... tends to come when you're trying to keep the whip away from yourself.
> Let it get/stay close and it will tend to "fly out" away from you.


 
That may be the problem, yes. I think that cracking whips requires balls of steel. 



bakxierboxer said:


> Not familiar with or forgotten that term... my "whipping days"/usage was mostly in the 1970s.


 
The belly is essentially a whip inside the whip. It is simply plaited in a checkred pattern and has a core of ... I'm not sure. Some kind of fibre. It's called filler. In a normal whip this belly is then covered with more filling and then the outer leather plaiting. Mine lacks the latter two, so I guess it's a light whip?



bakxierboxer said:


> The handle is built around a rotating core, and this prevents "bind" in the body of the whip.


 
That I do not see..



bakxierboxer said:


> "Cracking" is almost irrelevant... unless you intend to use it "for-show"/tricks/etc.


 
I intend to learn trick cracking first to gain control of the whip. It also doubles as intimidation. Target cutting is also right up there. After that I will start to experiment with other martial applications.



bakxierboxer said:


> As always, "you get what you pay for".
> So long as these units "serve a purpose" they'll be adequate.
> I have to guess that a high-quality whip these days will run in the $80 to $100 US range.... playing with a whip might easily not be worth that kind of money. let alone buying a "back up" or two.


 
I am seriously considering this. I called the man I bought it from last night and he said that they also make the whip 9 feet long (The one I have now is 6 feet - measured from the butt of the handle to the end of the thong). As far as I know the longer whips are better for cracking, but less good for test cutting. The 7,8,9, and even 10 range is a good overal range and will work for almost anything except a wrap and a swing. If I get that one and it cracks well I'll definitely buy some back-ups, afterwhich my goal would be to make them.


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 13, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I wasn't ably to get that one down yesterday, but I almost "mastered" the forward and got pretty good with the overhead. My arm is very sore today, so I may need to back off.



Depending on the "feel" of your soreness, that would normally call for either some "muscle" Dit Dah Jow (apply with the bare hand) or Zheng Gu Shui (apply with a cotton ball).
For "deeper" longer-term "hot" soreness, you might consider some of the analgesic patches.



> That may be the problem, yes. I think that cracking whips requires balls of steel.


"Determination" if nothing else.
Similar stuff to what you should develop doing Ma Bo, "3-Star Blocking", etc



> The belly is essentially a whip inside the whip. It is simply plaited in a checkred pattern and has a core of ... I'm not sure. Some kind of fibre. It's called filler. In a normal whip this belly is then covered with more filling and then the outer leather plaiting. Mine lacks the latter two, so I guess it's a light whip?


Sounds likely.



> I intend to learn trick cracking first to gain control of the whip. It also doubles as intimidation. Target cutting is also right up there. After that I will start to experiment with other martial applications.


Sounds like you've set your goals pretty well.



> I am seriously considering this. I called the man I bought it from last night and he said that they also make the whip 9 feet long (The one I have now is 6 feet - measured from the butt of the handle to the end of the thong). As far as I know the longer whips are better for cracking, but less good for test cutting. The 7,8,9, and even 10 range is a good overal range and will work for almost anything except a wrap and a swing. If I get that one and it cracks well I'll definitely buy some back-ups, afterwhich my goal would be to make them.


I more or less settled on 8 feet as optimum for my purposes.
One of my students went up to 20 feet or so... pretty difficult to use indoors.

Making your own whips is rather "over the top" unless you think you can do it as a sideline so it will pay for itself.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 13, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> Depending on the "feel" of your soreness, that would normally call for either some "muscle" Dit Dah Jow (apply with the bare hand) or Zheng Gu Shui (apply with a cotton ball).
> For "deeper" longer-term "hot" soreness, you might consider some of the analgesic patches.


 
I applied some leather dressing to the whip and took a day off. My arms feels better already.  I used the first medicine you mentioned when I studied Qinna. Extremely useful. 



bakxierboxer said:


> Sounds like you've set your goals pretty well.
> 
> I more or less settled on 8 feet as optimum for my purposes.
> One of my students went up to 20 feet or so... pretty difficult to use indoors.
> ...


 
I heard that 8 feet is best, but I only have a choice between 6 and 9 feet from this place and they ARE quite cheap. Even the six is impossible to use in a "normal" room.

When I take up a new "interest" I want to learn everything I can about it to formulate the best objective opinions and theories possible on it. Another reason to learn the craft would be making my own custom whips, as a hobby, and/or, as you mentioned, selling them. And I'm always way over the top.


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 13, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> I applied some leather dressing to the whip and took a day off. My arms feels better already.  I used the first medicine you mentioned when I studied Qinna. Extremely useful.



"Time flies when you're... ": 
a. "having fun"
                                      b. "on the other side of the world."
                                      c. {both}



> I heard that 8 feet is best, but I only have a choice between 6 and 9 feet from this place and they ARE quite cheap. Even the six is impossible to use in a "normal" room.


Seems kind of strange that I'd be in agreement with "consensus" on anything... even whip length,

Working with the "S" you should be able to crack an 8 foot whip within 3 to 4 feet in front of your face.



> When I take up a new "interest" I want to learn everything I can about it to formulate the best objective opinions and theories possible on it. Another reason to learn the craft would be making my own custom whips, as a hobby, and/or, as you mentioned, selling them. And I'm always way over the top.


Heh! good to know yourself.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 22, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> "Time flies when you're... ":
> a. "having fun"
> b. "on the other side of the world."
> c. {both}
> ...


 
Well, I didn't make any progress for a long time due to it raining every bloody day! .SFdjMVADFM,TJ#MF

But progress still came and I've got the forward crack down with both the right and the left hands, a very good right side arm (Left still needs some work, but get it every other time), but I can't seem to do the overhead for the life of me. I remember cracking it once and it sounded like thunder and I was temporarily deaf. But that was only one time and I haven't been able to do it again. I've also been practising some target cutting. I don't know why but it's infinitely easier to do it with the side arm. Great results, though. 

On a side note it's possible to choke and whip someone at the same time, it sees.


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 22, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> But progress still came.... but I can't seem to do the overhead for the life of me. I remember cracking it once and it sounded like thunder and I was temporarily deaf. But that was only one time and I haven't been able to do it again.



I don't remember doing many of those....
Most folks end up whirling it around their head and going into the overhead forward crack from there. That's also the primary area that the rotators help with.... any binding from the the relatively continuous round-the-head motion.



> I've also been practising some target cutting. I don't know why but it's infinitely easier to do it with the side arm. Great results, though.


Shouldn't be a problem doing the others.



> On a side note it's possible to choke and whip someone at the same time, it sees.


I can't picture that......


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 22, 2007)

bakxierboxer said:


> I don't remember doing many of those....
> Most folks end up whirling it around their head and going into the overhead forward crack from there. That's also the primary area that the rotators help with.... any binding from the the relatively continuous round-the-head motion.
> 
> Shouldn't be a problem doing the others.
> ...


 
OOO, mine doesn't have a rotator. I have done the overhead and then forward moving crack before, but I thought the overhead was supposed to crack off to the side or near your head (=s)? But my whip cracks the forward and sidearm loud enough. Today I tied the end of a new cracker I made into two separate knots with great results. The sound has come to sound like a cannon. Very cool stuff. 

P.S. You called it about the San Soo thing.


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## bakxierboxer (Jun 23, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> OOO, mine doesn't have a rotator. I have done the overhead and then forward moving crack before, but I thought the overhead was supposed to crack off to the side or near your head (=s)? But my whip cracks the forward and sidearm loud enough. Today I tied the end of a new cracker I made into two separate knots with great results. The sound has come to sound like a cannon. Very cool stuff.



For some folks, the rotator can be "irrelevant"... especially if they learn-to or like-to "avoid" the repeated overhead "whirling".
OTOH, a series of non-repetitive motions can run through various motions and you can choose to practice projecting/cracking your whip from any one of them.... the changing motions can alleviate any tendency towards binding.  A good thing to beware of is getting caught/wrapped-up in the midst of your own serial motions when the whip-hand can get well ahead of the end of the whip.... when this happens, the end of the whip can "sneak up behind you".

 You're "ahead of me" on cracker replacements.



> P.S. You called it about the San Soo thing.


"Experience" is some kind of teacher... or other.
"They're all over the place!"
(literally thousands of them!)
(discouraging thought....)


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## Winchester (Aug 12, 2016)

tellner said:


> The sjambok, both traditional and the SA Police version, is a terrible weapon that can cut to the bone and remove fingers.



^ Proof that it's the skill of the weilder that makes the difference.  I've never heard of finger dissection with a sjambok before although I can envision it.


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

MaartenSFS said:


> I recently got into whipping spinning tops and after I hit myself once had a martial brain fart. Whips are the only area where I am completely at a loss of information. Does anyone think whips are an effective self defense weapon?



Absolutely!  Especially shorter whip known as cossack nagaika whips!  These have been used for centuries by Russain cossacks one of the most famous world's warriors!
I myself own and practice short nagaika whips and welcome you to watch some of my youtube videos dedicated to nagaikas, like this one for instance:


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

This video shows the idea of using short whip for defense against knife, and for any close range attacks for that matter!


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

MaartenSFS said:


> It probably isn't articulated and the cracker probably isn't easily replaced. I'm not expecting much for 80&#20803; ($10.something), though if you look closely the quality of the leather seems good. Also, this is a Chinese whip, so I'm not sure why they would make it rope at the end. Leather is probably more brutal, perhaps rope is used to make it more of a "trick whip" and less of a real weapon? Anyways, for my first whip I prefer something like this. It is 2.5 metres long. Is this the right kind of whip to learn how to crack?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



How about this kind of whip defense?


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## Winchester (Aug 14, 2016)

No close range weapon will put the hurt on like a short stiff whip.


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Short whips are great self defense tools which allow numerous techniques and control the damage use wish to inflict - unlike the baton - and still achive the goal from chasing the apponent away ... or controlling them.


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Another idea of short whip...this time it is a combination of short whip and lead shot sap!


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

Short "sausage" sap and coin purse in use


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## Russian Whips (Aug 14, 2016)

One more demonstration ...


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## Winchester (Aug 14, 2016)

The SA police use of the sjambok prove it is incredibly effective.


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## Russian Whips (Aug 15, 2016)

Winchester said:


> The SA police use of the sjambok prove it is incredibly effective.



I am sure!  Do they still use it now? 

I want your opinion on this item I show in the video this baton cane can be used both as a type of sjambok or a cane and as a sort of whip!   The cane option is preferable of course.


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