# USAT's "Stay to Play" Policy -- you have got to be kidding



## Bones (Apr 16, 2010)

Ok,

So if we all planned ahead, bought our airplane tickets, booked our hotel or made other arrangements we may now be screwed?

*USAT's "Stay to Play" Policy for Junior Olympics & Senior Nationals*

*Bill Kellick April 16, 2010 *

​USA Taekwondo is renowned for operating the highest level taekwondo events in the United States.  We are committed to keeping event costs as low as possible.  In order to keep costs in line we must develop alternative sources of revenue.  Through our hotel resource partner, THS, we have strived to deliver high-quality event hotels at reasonable prices to you.  THS negotiates the lowest rates available at a USAT event hotel and builds in a hotel commission to USAT.  These revenues help keep our programs going and your events affordably priced.  
For the reasons stated below, USAT has followed the lead of other major event sports such as volleyball and soccer and has instituted a stay-to-play policy for certain major events such as the 2010 Junior Olympics/Senior Nationals in Orlando, Florida.
*Each individual/team registering for the USA Taekwondo Senior Nationals/Junior Olympics must make their hotel reservations through THS at an approved USA Taekwondo hotel.*  The approved hotel list is generated by USAT and THS. 
*Reasons USAT has implemented this Policy
* City-wide participation.
 Convention Center pricing and how it relates to hotel room night capture. We receive better rates for venues because we can guarantee more hotel rooms sold in a community.
 To combat yearly hotel price increases
 Builds stronger relationships with host city.
 We insist on a lower rate range in major cities than the hotels would normally provide.
 Compare our rates and challenge us. We are contractually obligated to give lowest group rates.
 Increased hotel revenue means more money for athlete programs.

*Benefits
* Rate Integrity Checks
 Lowest Group Rate Guarantee
(Exclusions: Single/king bedded rooms, employee rates, government rates, AAA and AARP Rates)
 Travel Agent Program
 Wide Ranges of Rates, starting as low as $59/night + tax
 Paid Room Comp Policies that can be extended to teamsstarting as low was 1:15 (for details about each hotels comp policy, please visit www.thsweb.com)

*Special Situations
*If you are in a situation listed below, call or email THS and ask more information on how we can help.
 *Do you already have a signed Hotel Contract?* Please email Evan at Evan@thsweb.com copy of your hotel contract and what your needs are. We will try and incorporate those rooms into our approved hotel list.
 *Do you want to use a hotel not currently on our list of approved hotels?* Email us the hotel name, address and number of rooms you are interested in by 4/23/10.  If you have already been quoted a rate, please provide us that information.
 *If you are a local team, not in need of hotel rooms,* please contact USA Taekwondos main office at 719-866-4632.
In conclusion, USAT will work with you to make sure we meet your hotel needs at no inconvenience to you. We very much appreciate your understanding and cooperation.
*THS Contact information:
*THS Company
111 Mill Street
Hackettstown, NJ  07840
Phone:  888.536.8326 
Fax:  908-684-2456
Email:  Evan Levitt Evan@thsweb.com 
Web:  www.thsweb.com


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## granfire (Apr 16, 2010)

the lower section covers you.

Send the email, plus paper mail...
I understand to have sponsorship deals with the hotels near by (the ITA gig in Birmingham included the Sheraton on the grounds...)
but the cynic in me screams 'kick back'

These deals should be on the calendar well before the tourney entries are expected...


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## mango.man (Apr 16, 2010)

Is it really a kick back when it says right in the message "THS negotiates the lowest rates available at a USAT event hotel and builds in a hotel commission to USAT."?

What really sucks is that we were going to group with a few families on our team and get a vacation rental house or condo that sleeps 12 with all the amenities.  I suppose we can still do it.  Just tell USAT we are arriving in town the night before our fight and checking out the morning of our fight.  Be out the $60 or so for the room through THS (or whatever the lowest rate hotel they offer is), but never actually check in.  Then stay the whole week (or in our case 10 days) where ever we want.


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## terryl965 (Apr 16, 2010)

I understand trying to recop revenue but to make it mandatory is another thing. U will be in FR. Lauderdale and driving up the day of competition for a few competitors. They have already booked rooms or I should say timeshares that they have though RCI. To me this is going to lower participation because people have there own price range and what they want to stay at. Me as a adult I have a choice to stay where I want and not be told that I must stay so my child can compete at a tournament I am paying for out of my pocket.


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## ATC (Apr 17, 2010)

Is that even leagle?

I have never seen one of their hotels come even close to the lower prices I can find at better hotels not to mention houses for way less. I have never stayed in a USAT approved hotel.

What B.S.

So much for trying to get better. Still looks like they are chasing the duckets (money).


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## terryl965 (Apr 17, 2010)

ATC said:


> Is that even leagle?
> 
> I have never seen one of their hotels come even close to the lower prices I can find at better hotels not to mention houses for way less. I have never stayed in a USAT approved hotel.
> 
> ...


 
Yea I mean what a brunch of crapola, I will be calling them on Monday and I will let you know what they say about staying at another Hotel, I also will ask how is this legal?


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## ATC (Apr 17, 2010)

Oops, sorry I just saw that I spelled legal wrong.:nuke: I hate that.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2010)

granfire said:


> the lower section covers you.
> 
> Send the email, plus paper mail...
> I understand to have sponsorship deals with the hotels near by (the ITA gig in Birmingham included the Sheraton on the grounds...)
> ...


It outright says "kickback."

Even for the locals!

I can understand their goal and perspective... but to require EVERYONE to stay at their official hotels, unless they obtain special dispensation, is a little bit extreme, I think!


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## granfire (Apr 17, 2010)

Ask them if they heard about racketeering laws...



I really have my doubts it is legal...


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## Gorilla (Apr 17, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Yea I mean what a brunch of crapola, I will be calling them on Monday and I will let you know what they say about staying at another Hotel, I also will ask how is this legal?



Not a surprise....This is arrogant beyond belief and shows a blatant disrespect for the membership...This could hinder an athletes *"right to compete"* and that is a big legal liability...I am sure that David Askinas will be at the Spanish Open.  I will voice my displeasure and let everyone know his response.  *If they would like to pay for my room I would gladly stay at their hotel.  In the mean time I will stay with my relatives in Orlando.  *


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## dancingalone (Apr 17, 2010)

ATC said:


> Is that even leagle?



Legal, yes.  The USAT is a private entity and they can definitely enforce participation rules like this.

Now if you want to talk about respectful to their members, that's another story.


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## jks9199 (Apr 17, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Not a surprise....This is arrogant beyond belief and shows a blatant disrespect for the membership...This could hinder an athletes *"right to compete"* and that is a big legal liability...I am sure that David Askinas will be at the Spanish Open.  I will voice my displeasure and let everyone know his response.  *If they would like to pay for my room I would gladly stay at their hotel.  In the mean time I will stay with my relatives in Orlando.  *


Does an athlete have a right to compete in a particular organization?  I doubt it is a "right."  They're running their event, and can set the rules up how they want.  It's just disrespectful to their athletes, and downright rude and money-grubbin'.


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## granfire (Apr 18, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Does an athlete have a right to compete in a particular organization?  I doubt it is a "right."  They're running their event, and can set the rules up how they want.  It's just disrespectful to their athletes, and downright rude and money-grubbin'.



They take a good deal for entry fees...I am sure there is a equal opportunity clause somewhere in the law....


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## jks9199 (Apr 18, 2010)

granfire said:


> They take a good deal for entry fees...I am sure there is a equal opportunity clause somewhere in the law....


I doubt it.  Essentially, they've got a right to make the rules for their events.  This isn't really all that different from a rule saying you must wear a white dobok or use a particular approved brand of gear.


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## terryl965 (Apr 18, 2010)

I found this on LadyTKD

*In the event that my comment posted on the Stay to Play article disappears - here is what I posted. If you are unhappy and not afraid to use your name, go to the usa-taekwondo.us site and voice your displeasure.
My questions: Was this approved by the BOD? If this was, then members need to find out who voted for it. This is an election year, if your disagree, vote them out. If this was not approved by the BOD, in that this is definitely a policy decision, it should have been. The timing and planning of this on top of the Lajust requirements will harm other vendors to the detriment of the USAT. When parents must pay extra for booties and in 2011 to rent the hogues or buy them, then adjust their plans to stay somewhere they do not want to do so, they will evaluate first whether or not they even want to send their child/competitor to USAT events. Then if they do come, they will not be as quick to buy t-shirts, photos, souvenirs - which means the vendors don't make any money and USAT ends up losing on that end. This was a poor decision.*


And also this

*I can't afford hotels. I sleep in my old VW camper. Will THS rent me a spot* *in an approved parking lot? Who's in charge of parking anyway? USAT needs to find more sources of income instead of squeezing the same people over and over until no more change pops out of the holes in our pockets. Yes, I know it is cheaper for the to have 1000 people pay $200 each for something than to deal with 2000 people paying $100 each for it. That is the new policy people, read the minutes if you don't believe me. Oh, wait a minute, they don't always publish the real ones do they? Let's limit our numbers and charge more---less work for the organization in the long run and makes their job easier doesn't it?*
*Too true! Good thing they already killed the Elite Division outside 14 to 32 year old Black Belts. They were already getting shafted with the LaJust deal. *


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## granfire (Apr 18, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> I doubt it.  Essentially, they've got a right to make the rules for their events.  This isn't really all that different from a rule saying you must wear a white dobok or use a particular approved brand of gear.




It goes a bit further than that, actually. but sadly, I am not a lawyer, don't play one on TV and to top it off I did not stay at the Holiday Inn Express either.

It is one thing to announce _preferred_ lodging well before the entries go out, another to change the game mid way. Those practices get my hackles up.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

First off this was NOT voted on by the BOD. It was an administrative decision. I have a few more posts on ladytkd but said I would post John Esche's letter everywhere I can. he asked great questions. 

Posting here is great - get the word out. Posting on the USAT site is better. Register and post on the article. Last I looked there were two others besides me who complained on the USA-Taekwondo.us site.

This is crap.


*An open letter to David Askinas*

*Dear David*

*Seldom am I at a complete loss for words, but this latest  piece of news to come out of your office is by far the most stunning  thing I  have seen since I first started attending events with  **Taekwondo.  I fully admit I'm not quite seeing the  bigger  picture here, so perhaps a few answers will help me to understand what  the  original intent of this new rule is and perhaps I am simply  misunderstanding  it.*

*Regarding Stay to Play*

*1.  If I have two children competing, will both of them  be needing their own rooms in order to play?*

*2.  Is it possible for me to obtain a list of exemptions  you  are going to allow for this tournament?  I can*
*     think of several competitors who live in  the greater Orlando area that I'm sure will not be forced to *
*     spend 120 dollars a night for the "right  to compete".  Where is the dividing line being drawn for  this? *
*     In other words, will it be a 50 mile  radius or will competitors from Miami and Atlanta be allowed to *
*     drive down that morning to compete?   *

*3.  As I read the qualifying chart for Nationals, I do not  see  where a validated room is part of the *
*      qualifications.  Haven't you  changed the rules of the game after the qualifying games have been  *
*      played?*

*4.  In the interest of transparency, will the members be  allowed to see exactly how much the hotels of*
*     Orlando are "kicking back" to the  USAT?  I would like to know exactly what line on the financial  *
*     statement you intend to put this money  on.*

*5.  Was this a staff decision, or was this voted on by the  board?  I would like to know who voted for it *
*      and what the outcome of this vote  was.*

*6. As I looked this morning at the 20 hotels THS has picked  to be  acceptable accommodations, I notice*
*     most are sold out.  Apparently there  are 20 available hotels to choose from with an availability of 68*
*     rooms.  With 40 of these  rooms at the Crowne Plaza Hotel.  When these rooms are gone, how is  THS *
*     going to handle the rest of the members  who have traveled a long way only to be told they can't *
*     compete due to their staying at the wrong  hotel.  I am reading that THS guarantees the lowest rate with the  *
*    exception of AAA  AARP and a couple of  other excemptions.   If I am a member of AAA can I use my  *
*    member discount, stay at an approved hotel and  try and keep my costs down or is it strictly for rooms*
*    booked with THS?*

*7.  Who will be in charge of policing this?  Upon check  in, will a competitor be required to show his *
*     room key to validate his  eligibility?  What of our athletes who register a room and allow several   other*
*     competitors to stay in the same room with  them in an effort to save money?  Will all of them have to *
*     be registered individually?    *

*8.  If a competitor has relatives in the Orlando area,   and would prefer to stay with that relative, will you*
*      be forcing them to at least have a  hotel for one night in order to compete?*

*9. Where are you staying?   How much is the room you are  staying in costing the members of the USAT?*
*    Is it a suite for entertaining, or will you be  staying in a room with two double beds and who are you *
*    sharing that room with?  How many other  directors, staff members or what you deem to be  dignitaries  *
*   will be staying at no charge  to **them and the bill being picked up by the  USAT?*

*10.  I plan on attending Nationals this year.  I'm  currently living in Florida and since the event is only*
*       an hour away, I am looking  forward to seeing the event.  Since I am a lifetime member, I am  entitled  *
*       to a ticket to attend the  event.  Will I be required to stay at a guest hotel for this benefit, or  is  *
*       it just for  competitors?*

*I appreciate your taking the time to answer these  questions.   As a long time supporter of the USAT, I am always open to new and  innovative  ideas that will help our athletes to succeed.  However, I cannot begin  to  see how a hotel room and its location allows any athlete an advantage to  compete  at such a prestigious tournament.  What I'm looking at from a parents  point  of view, is that the USAT has just priced themselves completely out of  the  market for what an event such as this is worth.  For the sake of  argument,  you simply raised the entry fee roughly 120 dollars during one of the  worst  economic downturns in this century.  I'm sure it doesn't sound like  much.  But to a family with limited funds to be told 75 days before the  event, that they will now be required to only stay at the finest hotels  as  dictated by USAT, THS or some man behind a green curtain is ridiculous.    *

*I understand what the original intention of this plan was.   As  I stated earlier, I am always open to new revenue streams that  eventually  trickle down to our athletes.  But I am totally against holding up  athletes  parents and supporters for a few dollars.  *

*I appreciate you taking the time to answer these questions  for all  of your constituents.  I feel it is important to keep lines of  communication open and that sometimes seems to fall through the cracks  in our  organization from both sides of the fence.  I feel that you spending a  few  minutes of time answering some of the above questions will go a long way  towards  helping us understand how this decision was arrived at and where all the   benefits to the plan are in the bigger picture.*

*I eagerly await your response.*

*Sincerely*

*John Esche*
*Lifetime Member*


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## cmassman (Apr 19, 2010)

Im not sure its that big of a thing, the USAT is just trying to control cost. By guaranteeing a certain number of rooms at select hotels the USAT will be given discounts or even free rooms thus reducing their cost for putting on the event. I suppose the USAT could just add another 50-100% to the cost of the entry fee, but Im guessing people would be upset about that too. 

If this really bothers you that much dont go. If nobody shows up they will realize it was a bad idea. If we still show up but are mad the USAT will not care. As long as we show up the USAT will consider this a good move. Its all about the numbers not how happy the membership is good or bad. 

I know a lot of you will argue its not fair to the athletes. There are a lot of things that are not fair. We all just need to deal whit it. 

As it has been pointed out in various threads membership is down, attendance at events are down mostly due to the economy but the cost stay the same. USAT is just trying to reduce cost.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

cmassman said:


> Im not sure its that big of a thing, the USAT is just trying to control cost. By guaranteeing a certain number of rooms at select hotels the USAT will be given discounts or even free rooms thus reducing their cost for putting on the event. I suppose the USAT could just add another 50-100% to the cost of the entry fee, but Im guessing people would be upset about that too.
> 
> If this really bothers you that much dont go. If nobody shows up they will realize it was a bad idea. If we still show up but are mad the USAT will not care. As long as we show up the USAT will consider this a good move. Its all about the numbers not how happy the membership is good or bad.
> 
> ...



IMHO this about the CEO scrambling to make money - no matter where he can get it. I don't think that the low numbers are due to the economy as I checked out other orgs and some even had increases. I expect that this will be the smallest Junior Olympics in history. All Elite (recreational divisions) have been eliminated except for the 14-32 black belts, required purchase of LaJust booties, required hotel rooms....

It is not just about getting the free comp rooms, USAT gets a kickback on all the hotel rooms booked through THS.

As with many people, I think that people are more upset about having their right to choose revoked.


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2010)

Usually the hotels recommended are not the economy types.

And the problem is less the 'option' of staying but the forced choice after reservations have been made.

There is a difference between sponsors offering event discounts (that's great) vs forced participation in the program. 

So if you have to jump through hoops for the excemption, I am guessing the attendance for the next event will reflect that.

Not to mention there are airlines I won't fly with if I can possibly avoid it. That means the only way I fly with them is if my scheduled flight can't make it.


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## Bones (Apr 19, 2010)

So...uh...the "Stay to Play" is missing from the USAT website.  Now what?


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

Bones said:


> So...uh...the "Stay to Play" is missing from the USAT website.  Now what?



Either he has done the Askinas 180 or they took it down to re-write the article without the comments below it. I did send the Esche letter to several board members. Who knows what happened. It is very typical with this staff.


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## terryl965 (Apr 19, 2010)

Bones said:


> So...uh...the "Stay to Play" is missing from the USAT website. Now what?


 
Yes it is, I wonder if it is gone to remove all the negative comments or removed because they know it was not right. I guess we need to wait and see over the next couple of weeks.


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## mango.man (Apr 19, 2010)

Bottom line for me is that my kid gets on a plane in 2 days for a competition in Russia and thanks to the latest boneheaded move by the USAT, now that will likely be her big TKD trip of the year and we will find an alternative for our summer vacation even though we already had planned our route to see and do all the things we wanted to do both in Florida and along our way to and from.

I will rent a car with the agency I want, get a hotel through the means of my choosing, eat at the establishments that I find tasty and wipe my butt with the toilet paper that I like and the USAT will have no say in any of those choices.


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## Stac3y (Apr 19, 2010)

Um....don't want to aggravaate anyone, but if you haven't asked about an exemption yet, how do you know they won't just say, "Okay. No problem."?


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Um....don't want to aggravaate anyone, but if you haven't asked about an exemption yet, how do you know they won't just say, "Okay. No problem."?



Actually I wonder how they are going to police it. I would love to be as trusting as you, but I know these people  - well. IMHO Some will get exemptions, some won't. Depends on who you are and who you know. Stupid thing is a great number of people stay at these hotels already because they are close or they think they are cheap. The problem is being forced to do it.


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Um....don't want to aggravaate anyone, but if you haven't asked about an exemption yet, how do you know they won't just say, "Okay. No problem."?



I am more wondering how it is economical to have a person(s) man the office to handle the requests...

Not to mention, it's an extra step one has to take.

When I make reservations for an even I don't consider having to check and recheck (rinse repeat) the internet for some bogus rules that throw my travel plans off. Weather, air traffic, yes, organizational rules? not so much.

Then again I foolishly assume these things would be set well before the season starts...


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## cmassman (Apr 19, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Um....don't want to aggravaate anyone, but if you haven't asked about an exemption yet, how do you know they won't just say, "Okay. No problem."?


 
Sometimes people just need to put the cart before the horse


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## bluekey88 (Apr 19, 2010)

why should I even have to ask?



Stac3y said:


> Um....don't want to aggravaate anyone, but if you haven't asked about an exemption yet, how do you know they won't just say, "Okay. No problem."?


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## mango.man (Apr 19, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Um....don't want to aggravaate anyone, but if you haven't asked about an exemption yet, how do you know they won't just say, "Okay. No problem."?



I thought the message was pretty clear and the 3 possibilities for exemptions are:

If you already have a room elsewhere, let us know and we will see if we can add it to the list.  If they can't add it to the list, I don't know what they will do with regards to forcing you to cancel your reservation or granting an exemption.  But since I don't already have a room, I don't need to find out.

If you don't already have a room but want to get a room somewhere else, let them know and they will try to add the hotel of your choice to the approved list.  If they can't then I don't know what they will do with regards to allowing a person to stay at the non-approved hotel or forcing them to choose from the list.  I presume they will force you to get a room at an already approved hotel, based on the wording of the statement.  But I was not planning on getting a room anyway.  We were going to go the vacation rental way ourselves so this doesn't apply either.

If you live in the area and aren't in need of a hotel, let them know.  Well I don't live in the area, and like John Esche's letter asks, exactly what radius around the convention center is considered "the area" anyway?

So why should I bother calling or e-mailing them?  They have my phone number and e-mail address.  If they want to clear something up with me, they  know how to reach me by any number of methods.


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## Gorilla (Apr 19, 2010)

RSweet said:


> Actually I wonder how they are going to police it. I would love to be as trusting as you, but I know these people  - well. IMHO Some will get exemptions, some won't. Depends on who you are and who you know. Stupid thing is a great number of people stay at these hotels already because they are close or they think they are cheap. The problem is being forced to do it.



Thank you for posting...I hope that you will continue to post...Allot of people on this BBS respect what you have done for TKD...I hope that you will continue to fight for the Rights of TKD athletes in the USA.  And continue to hold the USAT accountable...We are all hoping for positive changes in USA TKD


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## cmassman (Apr 19, 2010)

RSweet said:


> It is not just about getting the free comp rooms, USAT gets a kickback on all the hotel rooms booked through THS.
> 
> As with many people, I think that people are more upset about having their right to choose revoked.


 
I would not use the term kickback. to me kickback implies getting money back from a vendor and the only one who knows about it is the person getting the money. In this case it is pretty clear the USAT will be getting something for using THS. 

If people feel this strongly about it they should not go. Just go to the AAU event held the same time. Then let the USAT know the reason you will not be comming and stick to it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 19, 2010)

Wow.  Seems like a new problem with USAT/WTF comes up on a weekly, sometimes daily basis.  

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Apr 19, 2010)

cmassman said:


> I would not use the term kickback. to me kickback implies getting money back from a vendor and the only one who knows about it is the person getting the money. In this case it is pretty clear the USAT will be getting something for using THS.
> 
> If people feel this strongly about it they should not go. Just go to the AAU event held the same time. Then let the USAT know the reason you will not be comming and stick to it.


 
Well I am going to the A.A.U. event in FT. Laurderdale and then I was driving up for a couple of my athletes one being my son, but now I was just told that they believe that if you do not have a Hotel room or an exemption than they believe you will not be able to compete, I cannot get the exemption because I already told them I did not have a Hotel romm but was driving in. I was also informed that the proceedure is being looked at again by the power to be.

The last thing I will say on this subject here is the member are suppose to have a voice which we do not anymore, secondly the USAT are doing everything possible to ruin what could be one of the strongest orgs. for competition, without the membership and all the little people they do not have enough money to run the NGB for the sport but maybe that by itself is a great thing.


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## cmassman (Apr 19, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> The last thing I will say on this subject here is the member are suppose to have a voice which we do not anymore, secondly the USAT are doing everything possible to ruin what could be one of the strongest orgs. for competition, without the membership and all the little people they do not have enough money to run the NGB for the sport but maybe that by itself is a great thing.


 
Terry, I agree the USAT does need to improve on getting the members input. The only way to make that happen is to not go along with their decisions. If everyone stayed away from Juniors and Nationals one year that would get their attention.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

cmassman said:


> I would not use the term kickback. to me kickback implies getting money back from a vendor and the only one who knows about it is the person getting the money. In this case it is pretty clear the USAT will be getting something for using THS.
> 
> If people feel this strongly about it they should not go. Just go to the AAU event held the same time. Then let the USAT know the reason you will not be comming and stick to it.



Forgive - rebate is the correct term, kickback is what I feel today. When does the bleeding end? The grassroots have never been a priority with the USAT. At first it was, "we have to do this first, then we will get there." now it is "We have to take care of the Elite players first - membership still increases." Well it doesn't work that way. We now have 4 athletes who are getting stipends. Last year we had 4 athletes - and two of them failed to make the team. We started a U24 team as part of a sort of grassroots effort and IMHO screwed them over. This year the Elite Division was eliminated except for 14-32 black belts..... and on and on. We have a board member who "Firmly believes that the governance of this organization belongs to the Males. This is a male dominated sport and the men should handle the governance." We can't have a female Olympic Coach because there "isn't one who put someone on the team" and then we send a male buddy of certain people who never put anyone on the team and overlook a female who did. 

I don't think you have to worry about this being the smallest JO's in history, I think that has already been insured.


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## terryl965 (Apr 19, 2010)

Well once again USAT does not know what is going on, just got off the phne with a Austin he is an intern and knows nothing about anything, then this lady comes on and tell me that the only person with any authority about this is Mark kaufman and he is not available. When ask if I could talk to the head honcho I was no and that Mark would return my phone call when he has time. Well ain't that to know when he has time, forget about when I have time or if I will have time  it is solely up to them about when they get back to you. My God I feel like I am a kid again waiting for daddys approval.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Well once again USAT does not know what is going on, just got off the phne with a Austin he is an intern and knows nothing about anything, then this lady comes on and tell me that the only person with any authority about this is Mark kaufman and he is not available. When ask if I could talk to the head honcho I was no and that Mark would return my phone call when he has time. Well ain't that to know when he has time, forget about when I have time or if I will have time  it is solely up to them about when they get back to you. My God I feel like I am a kid again waiting for daddys approval.



From the phone calls I have received, Mark does not do well at returning phone calls, but he answers text messages almost immediately. Contact me and I will give you the number#. You have no idea how many state presidents call me and ask for help since neither Mark or David (in their words) will return their calls. However, Mark is speedy on the text and twitter. Follow him on twitter. BTW - Mr. Esche received an answer from David - saying call me. I guess he doesn't want anything in writing that I can post   For those who want Mr. Kaufman's number - a lot of the old qualifier info packets and others have staff member cell numbers - so I consider them public domain.


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## d1jinx (Apr 19, 2010)

For what its worth, this one is going to be simple....

*I AM NOT GOING.* 

I was considering it, but now... mind made up.  No one needs to go.  I have no elite players, no future olympians, or hall of famers.

So for the price of going to the J.O.'s and seniors, we can attend all the local tournaments around between DC and NY and achieve the same goal.


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## mango.man (Apr 19, 2010)

RSweet said:


> Forgive - rebate is the correct term, kickback is what I feel today. When does the bleeding end? The grassroots have never been a priority with the USAT. At first it was, "we have to do this first, then we will get there." now it is "We have to take care of the Elite players first - membership still increases." Well it doesn't work that way. We now have 4 athletes who are getting stipends. Last year we had 4 athletes - and two of them failed to make the team. We started a U24 team as part of a sort of grassroots effort and IMHO screwed them over. This year the Elite Division was eliminated except for 14-32 black belts..... and on and on. We have a board member who "Firmly believes that the governance of this organization belongs to the Males. This is a male dominated sport and the men should handle the governance." We can't have a female Olympic Coach because there "isn't one who put someone on the team" and then we send a male buddy of certain people who never put anyone on the team and overlook a female who did.
> 
> I don't think you have to worry about this being the smallest JO's in history, I think that has already been insured.



I am sorry, how long were you "Grassroots Director" of USAT and how long has passed since you "resigned"?  It would seem to me that what attention there was to grassroots people (however big or small) all fell apart under your watch as Director of Grassroots.

Please tell me, and others, exactly what good you have personally done over the past 5 years or so that you sat on the board, first as the chair and later as the grassroots director?  Because frankly, I am not sure what you ever did, good or bad (other than oversee the destruction of what there was of a grassroots effort in the org.)  Ohh, you handed my daughter her badge in Atlanta a few years back.  Other than those 2 things, what did you accomplish during your years on the board?


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## terryl965 (Apr 19, 2010)

mango.man you are right not much got done when she was there, unfortuantly she was not allowed to have anything she tried to get down passed by the board because of strong arm tactics that have been a great deal with USAT. When you have no voice and backing or you are always being turned down it gets very bad for all.

Rhonda has always been a big part of TKD whether with USTU, AAU or USAT, her heart has always been looking out for all not the few. I know I was never there personally but I know alot of folks that have told me she is really trying to get things done with no recourse because of politics.

I hope I do not sound like I am a big Rhonda person becaus eI have had my fair share of dis-agreement with her over the years but we all know nothing gets done with USAT without David being in the spot light and it being his baby.

Just for the record I have e-mail, tex and called all day and still no answers from anybody about any of my question.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

mango.man said:


> I am sorry, how long were you "Grassroots Director" of USAT and how long has passed since you "resigned"?  It would seem to me that what attention there was to grassroots people (however big or small) all fell apart under your watch as Director of Grassroots.
> 
> Please tell me, and others, exactly what good you have personally done over the past 5 years or so that you sat on the board, first as the chair and later as the grassroots director?  Because frankly, I am not sure what you ever did, good or bad (other than oversee the destruction of what there was of a grassroots effort in the org.)  Ohh, you handed my daughter her badge in Atlanta a few years back.  Other than those 2 things, what did you accomplish during your years on the board?



Well, I worked my rear end off to attempt to protect athletes like your daughter in the 4 years I worked on that board. However, when the bylaws are written so the paid staff has a dictatorship, it does cause some problems. And when it takes 6 of 10 to vote for something and votes were running 4-6, it is also difficult.

Let's see - off the to of my head:
I got Grassroots Grants passed by the board and saw it canceled by the CEO because there is NO MONEY.
I am the reason there is bracketed forms at USAT events, it is a long, painful story, of office incompetence. Since the implementation of same, poomse competition numbers went up for the first time in organization history
I fought other directors who believe the way to support the grassroots was to put all energy into the elite competitors.
I negotiated the end of the HLTC Contract and was able to keep the compromise which would have allowed HP to keep a finger in - from happening. Not to mention the frequent threats that he was going to sue me.
I got the Women's Committee passed and a set of policies and procedures written, only to see it die as Kevin "didn't know what he wanted to do with it yet." 
I was the only board member to introduce any bylaw amendments - especially those which brought the bylaws in line with the Colorado Nonprofit corp law.
I nagged incessantly to get money for the Poomsae team. I fought to get the office to handle their paperwork and not treat them like step children.
I had to talk to the WTF Secretary General to keep the WTF from canceling the IR seminar at the 2009 US Open because David insulted him and them.
I fought tooth and nail to get the selection process changed. 
I brought conflicts of interest to light - regarding things like the Coaching Director being on the selection committee for National Assistant Coaches and also being a candidate. However, no one seemed to care.
I worked events so that I could see how things ran.
I kept the rules from changing 24 hours before the Florida Qualifier last year when it came to light that staff had changed the head kick rules and didn't tell anyone, outside of page 37 of the downloaded book. 
I proposed the election bylaw changes which will never see light of day which would eliminate the reduction to 3 names on the ballot. CEO doesn't want that one. It's dead.
While the CEO was out of the country, I had USOC call about fixing the USOC election procedures which were rejected by the USOC.
I filed an Ethics Complaint (1 of 3) on the female board member who stated that it is her firm belief that the governance of this organization should be handled by the men as this is a male dominated sport and the men could handle it better - with the idea that up and coming females like your daughter wouldn't have to deal with the glass ceiling and gender discrimination, but the EC decided it was a board issue and they don't see a problem.

If this is not enough for you, I would be thrilled to add to this list.


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## Gorilla (Apr 19, 2010)

RSweet said:


> Well, I worked my rear end off to attempt to protect athletes like your daughter in the 4 years I worked on that board. However, when the bylaws are written so the paid staff has a dictatorship, it does cause some problems. And when it takes 6 of 10 to vote for something and votes were running 4-6, it is also difficult.
> 
> Let's see - off the to of my head:
> I got Grassroots Grants passed by the board and saw it canceled by the CEO because there is NO MONEY.
> ...



Charles it would appear to me that Ronda was putting he finger in the hole of the Dam of stupidity which is the USAT.  The number of poor decisions that our NGB has made since she left has increased exponentially.  It would appear that the USAT is going down in the flood of poor decisions that are coming out of Colorado Springs.  I think that Ronda was trying to fix things in Colorado and that is why she got frustrated and resigned.  Just my opinion I am sure Ms. Sweet can expound if she likes.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

Oh yeah Mango Man, speaking of your daughter:

There would be no Sexual Harassment Policy in place if I had not brought it to the forefront and babysat that one.

It wouldn't be posted on the USAT legal page, which was created as I pushed posting of legal complaints and policies.

In 2006, when we were 2 days from being decertifed by the USOC, I worked with Jason Poos and we got a compromise working that saw the USAT not decertified and your child still able to compete at Nationals and JO's as USOC was going to decertify the USAT and work only with the National team. No JO's, no grassroots. 

I pushed, shoved and did everything and saw the Board pass the USAT Dan program, to see the CEO kill it when KKW threatened to kill the special testing at the 2009 US Open.

I helped implement the Travel Team ideas, only to see them cancel the trips as too expensive after announcing them on the website.

When I found out that there were issues with the NASTO election 8 months after Mark Williams was seated, I investigated and pushed and shoved the CEO and other Board members as USAT IMO validated an illegal election. I worked hard to find people to sit on the Ethics Committee so this complaint could be heard - and it is still in limbo. I this took frequent calls saying we're going to get sued if this was pursued.

Every week I sent nagged the CEO to get the 990's and the Audits posted on the website. I did not accept excuses like "tom has it in his briefcase at home." but guess what? You can't control other people. 

When Danielle Pelham was denied her spot at Team trials because the Arbitration Committee made a major error, who do you think it was that worked to get that changed, as well as the rules?

I introduced and worked to bring the states back. When staff came up with stupid rules that really should not apply to states, I pushed to get them changed - like ring sizes and night before weigh-ins. 

When states and vendors didn't get paid, I intervened when asked.

When the CEO had this brilliant idea to cohost the Hanmadang a couple years ago and be their keynote speaker, I talked him out of it. Regardless of whose name was on the contracts, with USAT on the posters, vendors would have come after USAT and we could not afford to pay those bills. Considering that was a financial disaster...

I fought to get a female coach for the Olympics and to get more female coaches. Well, when u have a CEO who uses terms like "radical feminists" and .........  So when I protested the choice of the Olympic Support staff - starting with we need a woman and why him when you just wrote he cost us all this money - I lost that fight. My words were it looks like "Boy's Night Out."

I dealt with people who thought they could have meetings with no minutes if they call them team building. I dealt with people who didn't want members to call in or be part of meetings. I dealt with people who think that if you disagree with the org you need to get out. I dealt with people who don't know our bylaws - starting right at the top.

Yeah, all I did was pass out badges.


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2010)

RSweet said:


> Oh yeah Mango Man, speaking of your daughter:
> 
> There would be no Sexual Harassment Policy in place if I had not brought it to the forefront and babysat that one.
> 
> ...


So, candidate for AA meetings yet? 
I know I would be driven to abuse adult beverages with that except out of the life of a leading organization....


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2010)

RSweet said:


> From the phone calls I have received, Mark does not do well at returning phone calls, but he answers text messages almost immediately. Contact me and I will give you the number#. You have no idea how many state presidents call me and ask for help since neither Mark or David (in their words) will return their calls. However, Mark is speedy on the text and twitter. Follow him on twitter. BTW - Mr. Esche received an answer from David - saying call me. I guess he doesn't want anything in writing that I can post   For those who want Mr. Kaufman's number - a lot of the old qualifier info packets and others have staff member cell numbers - so I consider them public domain.



Sounds like he needs to throw the toys out and do his job.

But then, I have no dog in this fight - I just enjoy a cold one and popcorn on the sideline.


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

granfire said:


> So, candidate for AA meetings yet?
> I know I would be driven to abuse adult beverages with that except out of the life of a leading organization....



Not yet, although it was close. You could tell it was a bad day when we sent out for the barcardi limon. Reminds me of a bet I had with the CEO. He wanted me to apologize to HP for tearing up his contract at a BOD meeting after we negotiated the end to it. Certain board members who are classmates ratted me out. Anyway, he was refusing to register students in USAT if I didn't. I bet David he wouldn't register all 400 of his students, even if I did apologize for the admittedly childish stunt. The prize was a bottle of Bailey's.

the end date for the bet came, and that school had 4 members not 400 - David needed him to register 300 to win. So I reminded him he owed me a bottle. He forgot, I reminded. He went home and brought me an open bottle from his home bar to pay off.

It was crap like this that drove to occasional "prayer meetings" as MW coined them when we refereed together years ago.


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## d1jinx (Apr 19, 2010)

HP.... That bum still owes me a Shirt from the first Level 1 seminar..... $500, no shirts, no dvd, no nothing but the right to call myself a level 1......


WHERE"S MY SHIRT?


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## RSweet (Apr 19, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> HP.... That bum still owes me a Shirt from the first Level 1 seminar..... $500, no shirts, no dvd, no nothing but the right to call myself a level 1......
> 
> 
> WHERE"S MY SHIRT?



LMAO - good luck collecting.


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## d1jinx (Apr 19, 2010)

5 years and no luck.


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2010)

you must have broken a mirror, but there is hope for you yet, in 2 years your luck returns.


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## Miles (Apr 20, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> HP.... That bum still owes me a Shirt from the first Level 1 seminar..... $500, no shirts, no dvd, no nothing but the right to call myself a level 1......
> 
> 
> WHERE"S MY SHIRT?


 
  D, your SOL (statute of limitations.....what were YOU thinking that stood for?) is probably coming up....

Disclaimer-I don't practice law in CA where HP is AFAIK, or wherever D lives.....or wherever the refereeing seminar took place.....


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## d1jinx (Apr 20, 2010)

Miles said:


> D, your SOL (statute of limitations.....what were YOU thinking that stood for?) is probably coming up....
> 
> Disclaimer-I don't practice law in CA where HP is AFAIK, or wherever D lives.....or wherever the refereeing seminar took place.....


 
it was the level 1 coaches seminar and it was a rip off from the start.  thats when they decided only level 1 coaches could coach from the chair at major events.  now take the AC and ur good.  or coaches edge.


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## Gorilla (Apr 20, 2010)

Check the website they pulled the Stay for Play.  I would suggest that they make it voluntary for ever!!!!  Because it is definitely against an Athletes "Right to compete"
I am glad they did this in a way.  I have learned allot about an athletes right to compete.  This will come in handy at a latter time I am sure.

*Due to the timeframe of the upcoming Junior Olympics and Senior National Championships, combined with the fact that many members have already finalized their housing arrangements, USA Taekwondo has decided to make the &#8220;Stay to Play&#8221; service voluntary in 2010.

USAT members are still strongly encouraged to take advantage of this opportunity and book their lodging with one of the many approved THS hotels. By utilizing the THS service, members can experience cost savings at participating hotels offering a wide range of rates, starting at $59/night + tax.

Revenue generated from this service directly impacts USAT athlete development programs such as team training camps including Junior, U-24, and Senior National Teams, Junior Prep Program and world-class international competitions.

For the 2011 Junior Olympics and Senior National Championships, qualification procedures and policies will be published well in advance to allow participants ample time to make their arrangements.

USA Taekwondo appreciates your understanding and cooperation in this endeavor as we strive to provide our athletes and membership the best possible service and programs.
Rate It*


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## terryl965 (Apr 20, 2010)

Gorilla you beat me to it, I'am with you they should just forget about it all together.


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## ATC (Apr 20, 2010)

It should remain something that is suggested but to make it a policy or mandatory is insane.

Also I heard from a little birdy that the Sr. Nationlas and JO's are to be held in *San Jose, CA.* next year. I hope it that is ture. We'll see.


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## d1jinx (Apr 20, 2010)

You should have all gotten this email by now... if not.....

"Due to the timeframe of the upcoming Junior Olympics and Senior National Championships, combined with the fact that many members have already finalized their housing arrangements, USA Taekwondo has decided to make the "Stay to Play" service voluntary in 2010.  
USAT members are still strongly encouraged to take advantage of this opportunity and book their lodging with one of the many approved THS hotels. By utilizing the THS service, members can experience cost savings at participating hotels offering a wide range of rates, starting at $59/night + tax.  
Revenue generated from this service directly impacts USAT athlete development programs such as team training camps including Junior, U-24, and Senior National Teams, Junior Prep Program and world-class international competitions.  
For the 2011 Junior Olympics and Senior National Championships, qualification procedures and policies will be published well in advance to allow participants ample time to make their arrangements. 
USA Taekwondo appreciates your understanding and cooperation in this endeavor as we strive to provide our athletes and membership the best possible service and programs."


yuk yuk yuk yuk yuk  :rofl:


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## mango.man (Apr 20, 2010)

I just got this e-mail from USAT:



*Due to the timeframe of the upcoming Junior Olympics and Senior National Championships, combined with the fact that many members have already finalized their housing arrangements, USA Taekwondo has decided to make the "Stay to Play" service voluntary in 2010.  

USAT members are still strongly encouraged to take advantage of this opportunity and book their lodging with one of the many approved THS hotels. By utilizing the THS service, members can experience cost savings at participating hotels offering a wide range of rates, starting at $59/night + tax.  

Revenue generated from this service directly impacts USAT athlete development programs such as team training camps including Junior, U-24, and Senior National Teams, Junior Prep Program and world-class international competitions.  

For the 2011 Junior Olympics and Senior National Championships, qualification procedures and policies will be published well in advance to allow participants ample time to make their arrangements. 

USA Taekwondo appreciates your understanding and cooperation in this endeavor as we strive to provide our athletes and membership the best possible service and programs.*


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## StudentCarl (Apr 21, 2010)

It's nice to see HQ make the right call, but the bad aftertaste is gonna linger. 

It doesn't take many of this kind of shenanigan to build a very negative attitude toward "upstairs". New ideas from now on are likely to be met with a sarcastic "Hey...guess what headquarters has thought of this time!" 

Whether it's Mr. A, the BOD, or whomever, we expect leaders to carefully evaluate the results of any action BEFORE taking it. 
Why should we believe they thought things through next time? 

Carl


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## terryl965 (Apr 21, 2010)

Srudentcarl you are right, it is going to be some backlash over this when they do decide to make any changes. They just never sem to think before they type, sometime it is better to think about what could happen and try to understand people than just say take it or leaveit attitude. The USAT has to remember it is the little people that really run that org as far as money goes.


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## granfire (Apr 21, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> It's nice to see HQ make the right call, but the bad aftertaste is gonna linger.
> 
> It doesn't take many of this kind of shenanigan to build a very negative attitude toward "upstairs". New ideas from now on are likely to be met with a sarcastic *"Hey...guess what headquarters has thought of this time!" *
> 
> ...



I suppose just because one can punch through a 4x4 or do a triple quadruple tornado kick through a tank does not mean one is capable or equipped to run a business - which a large organization like this is.

the bolded has been the battle cry in my area (organization) for several years now. (and yet, they look good against this mess)

But - the cynic that I am - to me it reads that this year you guys are off the hook. Next year, _after_ the election all bets are off, or rather the deal might be back on.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 21, 2010)

granfire said:


> ...cynic that I am...


 
That's the real poison: this kind of management encourages cynicism.

It's really the opposite of what we spend our time teaching and modeling to students each day or night (Courtesy, Integrity...).


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## granfire (Apr 21, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> That's the real poison: this kind of management encourages cynicism.
> 
> It's really the opposite of what we spend our time teaching and modeling to students each day or night (Courtesy, Integrity...).



Damn, having dejavu moments here!!!


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## RSweet (Apr 21, 2010)

granfire said:


> I suppose just because one can punch through a 4x4 or do a triple quadruple tornado kick through a tank does not mean one is capable or equipped to run a business - which a large organization like this is.
> 
> the bolded has been the battle cry in my area (organization) for several years now. (and yet, they look good against this mess)
> 
> But - the cynic that I am - to me it reads that this year you guys are off the hook. Next year, _after_ the election all bets are off, or rather the deal might be back on.



Hate to break it to you but the yoyo who made this decision can neither do a tornado kick or punch through a 4X4. NonTKD guy. He was supposed to be a business guy.

He also has another 3 years on his contract - they may not get re-elected but unless they fire him he will be there to guide the new electees


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## granfire (Apr 21, 2010)

RSweet said:


> Hate to break it to you but the yoyo who made this decision can neither do a tornado kick or punch through a 4X4. NonTKD guy. He was supposed to be a business guy.
> 
> He also has another 3 years on his contract - they may not get re-elected but unless they fire him he will be there to guide the new electees



I hear *Brownie* has an open schedule these days.

Now I am officially scared.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 21, 2010)

Maybe we need to get him into a class and get him going on the basics of TKD. A white dobuk, a white belt, a floor full of real people...

The best leaders know what goes on at the bottom of the ladder.

Recent Time magazine mentions Gen. McChrystal receiving a complaint from a line soldier about the soldier being given unreasonable limits on rules of engagement. Gen. McChrystal went to the soldier's unit and went on patrol with him, carrying a rifle. Credibility is earned.

I also know of an infantry general who preferred riding a bicycle around post to any other transportation. People don't notice bikers much, and he was able to see a grunt's reality way more than the dog-and-pony show put on for generals.

If all you fly is a desk, how can you know what's real?


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## granfire (Apr 21, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> Maybe we need to get him into a class and get him going on the basics of TKD. A white dobuk, a white belt, a floor full of real people...
> 
> The best leaders know what goes on at the bottom of the ladder.
> 
> ...



Make his assignment 'Undercover Boss', he might need the cover....


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## RSweet (Apr 22, 2010)

One of the comments about why Stay to Play is so wonderful deserves  closer examination. Don't just dismiss it as the usual catch phrase - do  it for the athletes - read it and see if you see what I do.

_"Revenue  generated from this service directly impacts USAT athlete  development  programs such as team training camps including Junior, U-24,  and Senior  National Teams, Junior Prep Program and world-class  international  competitions."_

Interesting word choices. Keeping in mind the  audience - a lot of moms and dads and coaches who will not see their  child or competitor on one of the teams. Now most support the concept of  helping the athletes, but most want the dollar value to hit a little  closer to home. 

  Allow me to give my personal opinion translation of this statement.  We want you to do this to support the elite athletes, even though most  of the programs listed ARE ALREADY FUNDED BY THE USOC! USOC pays most,  if not all international trips and some camps.

What he is also  saying is he is asking the grassroots parents to pay for the Elite  Athletes (bet some of it goes to salaries and dinners and expenses not  listed but it sure sounds better to say it is for the athletes) and it  never occurred to him to list just ONE THING THAT WILL BENEFIT THE  GRASSROOTS PARENTS/ATHLETES who pay the bills for this event. 
And  I am sure it has not escaped the Poomsae Team that they didn't rate a  mention when their numbers make up a nice chunk of the change. So their  entry money, hotel rebates etc.. will go to support the Sparring  Competitors. Now maybe he didn't mean that. Maybe he does plan on a  crumb or two for poomsae. However, when he wrote this carefully crafted  spin on this money grab - IT NEVER OCCURRED TO HIM. 

Is this a  Freudian Slip - telling the grassroots and poomsae people that while  they pay for all this, they get no piece of the total pie? Remember,  athlete stipends (all 4 of them), international team trips including the  Juniors, U24 team and a lot of camps are paid for out of High  Performance money directly from the USOC, not the USAT.

Think  about it. What is he really saying here?


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2010)

He is saying the same thing that he always says, we do not care about anybody except the choosen few.... Why is this so hard for anybody to see? What makes the choosen few so special? At anyrate nobody really cares and they will follow suite and do what the Monkey grinder says?


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## RSweet (Apr 22, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> He is saying the same thing that he always says, we do not care about anybody except the chosen few.... Why is this so hard for anybody to see? What makes the chosen few so special? At any rate nobody really cares and they will follow suit and do what the Monkey grinder says?



Too true. It is disheartening at times.


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## bluekey88 (Apr 22, 2010)

This whole thing saddens me. I AM grassroots. I'm a 39 y.o. guy. despite a lifetime of MA training, I came to TKD later in life. I'll never be great...ehll I bet I barely rate as good by most standards. I caoch...FOR FREE...at a small school that does not focus on competition. In fact, the owner got so fed up with the USTU/USAT rap years ago he almost scrapped his competition team. he agreed to give the running of it over to the current head coach and that guy recruited me. 

Since then I've done my level best to educate myself. I've paid my fees, I've attended my conferences. Why? because my kids LOVE to compete. They're not very good...certainly not Elite. They're just good enough to eke out spots at nationals...but we know this is nothing more than a passion...a hobby. These kids (and the other kids on our team) Work so much harder than anyone else in our dojang. Their integrity, grit and heart are one of the things that keeps me doing this. I love these kids, and they love TKD. The coaches at our school don';t talk about the drama and politics with them...best the kids should enjoy their past time.

What I've been hearing the past few years from USAT at things like the coach's edge seminars...is that you small coaches are important. Your up and coming players are important. What the actions say though is that we are not important...just our money. I wonder no...do I even have a place in the organization? I get it. I'll never be an Olympic champion. My kids will never be an Olympic champ. Hell, the head coach and myself have discussed that if a child were ever to enter our program and show that level of skill...we'd move them on to someone who could help them best cultivate that. We know our limitations. 

It seems like the organization has chosen one of two approaches. The focus on the elite. This is fine. If you identify the best and put all your resources to wards them, you'll build champions. However, this will necessitate a much smaller organization as your membership is going to be limited to the few.

the other alternative is to have a large, diverse membership and from that the cream will rise to the top. That has the benefit of more resources, but also more time has to be spent on those who will not rise to the top (otherwise where does the cream come from eh?). 

I think right now they want to be the former scenario, but act like the latter scenario...wich cannot work. 

This year, our school damn near went with AAU. The ONLY thing that held us back was AAU's poomse rules. We like the new poomse format. We've been working for a few years to bring our competitors and school in line with the KKW/WTF poomse standards. The head coach fees that in that respect AAU would be a step back wards for us. Especially since we are much more el;likely to be competitive in poomse than we are in sparring.

Furthermore, as a parent, I'm stuck.  I promised my kids I'd make sure they had a chance to compete.  It's too late to qualify for AAU this year.  they don't understand about the drama and politics (remember we don't expose them to that).  

What's an average TKD parent/coach/competitor to do? We could just stay at our dojang...but there is something to be said about going out there and testing your mettle against other schools and better players. good life lessons are learned there. Hell, I'm willing to spend my hard earned money to do so...but I need to have a stake in things...that's beginning to look like its no longer the case.

/rant

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2010)

I wish you would consider the A.A.U. because they are a great org. with the athletes comes first and foremost. I understand the poomsae thing but you see if they are good they will win nomatter what org they are doing poomsae in.


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## bluekey88 (Apr 22, 2010)

Unfortunately, it's not entirely up to me.  I could go solo and it would just be me and my kids....part of the fun is going out as a team and working to tgether and supporting each other.  

Perhaps next year.  We shall see.

I, personally, would like to give AAU a shot.  Most importantly, i want to enjoy my chosen hobby with my family and my friends and not worry about all this B.S.  Life's too short.

Peace,
Erik


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2010)

bluekey88 said:


> Unfortunately, it's not entirely up to me. I could go solo and it would just be me and my kids....part of the fun is going out as a team and working to tgether and supporting each other.
> 
> Perhaps next year. We shall see.
> 
> ...


 

Erik I would be willing to talk to your instructor about the benefits that A.A.U. has to offer and remember 80% of the USAT team came from the A.A.U. program so they must be doing something right, at anyrate let me know.


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## RSweet (Apr 22, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Erik I would be willing to talk to your instructor about the benefits that A.A.U. has to offer and remember 80% of the USAT team came from the A.A.U. program so they must be doing something right, at anyrate let me know.



Let's be fair here. I do not believe 80& of the USAT team came from AAU any more than the NCTA, USAT says AAU's team came from theirs. Contrary to what Friello thinks, USAT likes it when a USAT competitor gets on the AAU team - it is a trip experience USAT doesn't have to pay for.

What we have are a group of athletes who will compete anywhere for anyone. The only way to improve is to compete, no matter where, but preferrably when the competition is at your level.

I would agree a lot of people have dual membership and compete in both. I think we need to get out of this mindset that someone BELONGS to one group or the other, rather than has membership in one, the other or both. No one owns anyone - with the exception that as long as he is under contract to USAT, Jean can't coach for AAU.


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## granfire (Apr 22, 2010)

RSweet said:


> One of the comments about why Stay to Play is so wonderful deserves  closer examination. Don't just dismiss it as the usual catch phrase - do  it for the athletes - read it and see if you see what I do.
> 
> _"Revenue  generated from this service directly impacts USAT athlete  development  programs such as team training camps including Junior, U-24,  and Senior  National Teams, Junior Prep Program and world-class  international  competitions."_
> 
> ...




I shall call you Gorbi:
Glasnost and Perestroika...


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## terryl965 (Apr 22, 2010)

*Let's be fair here. I do not believe 80& of the USAT team came from AAU any more than the NCTA, USAT says AAU's team came from theirs. Contrary to what Friello thinks, USAT likes it when a USAT competitor gets on the AAU team - it is a trip experience USAT doesn't have to pay for.*

Well Rhonda you are right maybe not 80% but I know for a fact thier are alot more that was A.A.U. before they where USAT, not saying they did not belong to both. Hell my sons belong to both with the same as alot of my fighters but they was given there shot though the A.A.U. and then they was put on the radar by Jean and Peak. As far as Jean not being able to coach sure but he is around alot with the AAU wonder why oh yea to scout and look at up and coming fighters. Look I do not like alot of things about the USAT and we all know who that is but one thing is for sure right now they are the game when it come to Olympic dreams. The A.A.U. does a better job with the grassroot program with them putting together the Cadet team it allows 10-13 years old the oppotunity to grow into the sport and be a part of something to be proud of.

One last thing here we all know TKD has become big business and the art and intregrity is all but gone from the top down within organizations, we as instructor must hold every org. responsible for thier action by voicing and educationing the masses and this can only be done by people like you and others. Sometimes people forget it is the little people that make up the majority so the few can have a golden path, please lets strive to make the path better for all competitors not just a few. I know one Instructor that pays out of his own pocket so he can be apart of the poomsae Team, I know the rest do as well but one individual has spent hours and hours defending the USTU and know the USAT and he is a good man. I will not sy his name but he is a member here on Martial talk and one of the most respected person I know. So for him and the rest of the USA poomsae team they need help with funding and should be cut into the pie every once in a while but they never are.


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## RSweet (Apr 22, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> *Let's be fair here. I do not believe 80& of the USAT team came from AAU any more than the NCTA, USAT says AAU's team came from theirs. Contrary to what Friello thinks, USAT likes it when a USAT competitor gets on the AAU team - it is a trip experience USAT doesn't have to pay for.*
> 
> Well Rhonda you are right maybe not 80% but I know for a fact thier are alot more that was A.A.U. before they where USAT, not saying they did not belong to both. Hell my sons belong to both with the same as alot of my fighters but they was given there shot though the A.A.U. and then they was put on the radar by Jean and Peak. As far as Jean not being able to coach sure but he is around alot with the AAU wonder why oh yea to scout and look at up and coming fighters. Look I do not like alot of things about the USAT and we all know who that is but one thing is for sure right now they are the game when it come to Olympic dreams. The A.A.U. does a better job with the grassroot program with them putting together the Cadet team it allows 10-13 years old the oppotunity to grow into the sport and be a part of something to be proud of.
> 
> One last thing here we all know TKD has become big business and the art and intregrity is all but gone from the top down within organizations, we as instructor must hold every org. responsible for thier action by voicing and educationing the masses and this can only be done by people like you and others. Sometimes people forget it is the little people that make up the majority so the few can have a golden path, please lets strive to make the path better for all competitors not just a few. I know one Instructor that pays out of his own pocket so he can be apart of the poomsae Team, I know the rest do as well but one individual has spent hours and hours defending the USTU and know the USAT and he is a good man. I will not sy his name but he is a member here on Martial talk and one of the most respected person I know. So for him and the rest of the USA poomsae team they need help with funding and should be cut into the pie every once in a while but they never are.



My point is we have to start somewhere and with ourselves is a good place. We are martial artists. We are not owned by AAU, USAT, USNTF, ITA etc.. We may pay them dues, work for them, dedicate a lot to them, but each has its own individual place in our own personal worlds. AAU has better grassroots, USAT has better poomsae and USTC does hanmadang. Doesn't mean you can't belong to all three. I just get really upset when Friello or Askinas talks about someone as if they were an object - "they stole so and so". You can't steal a human being.


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## RSweet (Apr 22, 2010)

http://www.fencing.net/news/us-fencing/objections-to-stay-and-play.html

Got this link off a comment on the USAT site. TOO bad the BOD did not read this first.


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## d1jinx (Apr 22, 2010)

RSweet said:


> http://www.fencing.net/news/us-fencing/objections-to-stay-and-play.html
> 
> Got this link off a comment on the USAT site. TOO bad the BOD did not read this first.


 
So THS is related to several USOC sports?  And its not just some Org USAT picked out of a hat?  If this is being attempted across other sports, could it be driven by the USOC and we are not seeing the full picture?  or is this a copycat scheme that could make money so one decides to implement it too?  I'm not for it, but if it seems to be similiar across other USOC sports, is there more behind it than we see?


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## Bones (Apr 22, 2010)

It could also be the vendor, THS, telling USAT about what other organizations are doing and how it can help "raise revenue" and "lower expenses" for the masses. Of course, if THS can sell this concept to more organizations they service than they probably would rake in just a little more cash.


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## cmassman (Apr 23, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> So THS is related to several USOC sports? And its not just some Org USAT picked out of a hat? If this is being attempted across other sports, could it be driven by the USOC and we are not seeing the full picture? or is this a copycat scheme that could make money so one decides to implement it too? I'm not for it, but if it seems to be similiar across other USOC sports, is there more behind it than we see?


 
What? You throwing out the possibility that this is not some evil plot orchestrated by David and his evil board of director henchmen, how could this be? Pardon by political incorrectness I should have used the term henchpersons instead of henchmen.


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## RSweet (Apr 23, 2010)

cmassman said:


> What? You throwing out the possibility that this is not some evil plot orchestrated by David and his evil board of director henchmen, how could this be? Pardon by political incorrectness I should have used the term henchpersons instead of henchmen.



remember, the only woman involved at that level " I FIRMLY believe the governance of this organization should be handled by the men. This is a male dominated sport and they are better equipped to handle the governance."

You were correct the first time.

I do think though that THS probably is not owned or operated by any USAT henchmen. They are used by too many groups.


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## granfire (Apr 23, 2010)

Bones said:


> It could also be the vendor, THS, telling USAT about what other organizations are doing and how it can help "raise revenue" and "lower expenses" for the masses. Of course, if THS can sell this concept to more organizations they service than they probably would rake in just a little more cash.



Kind of like a United Way for athletes.

I don't mind the principal of even specific programs to get a good deal on a hotel for groups, etc, I hate the forced component of it.

I am sure a lot of people would have no problem taking their hotel through that gig to get some return for the organization, even if it does not profit them. Just a lot of people have to eat rice and beans for a month to afford extras...you can't just force them into a hotel when they really can't afford the tent...


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## cmassman (Apr 23, 2010)

granfire said:


> Kind of like a United Way for athletes.
> 
> I don't mind the principal of even specific programs to get a good deal on a hotel for groups, etc, I hate the forced component of it.
> 
> I am sure a lot of people would have no problem taking their hotel through that gig to get some return for the organization, even if it does not profit them. Just a lot of people have to eat rice and beans for a month to afford extras...you can't just force them into a hotel when they really can't afford the tent...


 
Unfortunately what this comes down to is David and his evil henchmen are trying to generate some more cash.  So with that said the poor guy who cant afford the THS hotel will not be able to afford the high entrance. So either way he gets priced out. Not saying its ok, I just saying in life we can always have everything we want. 

Personally, I would like to work on my refereeing skills but I cant afford to take off work and travel to all the various national events, Im limited to going to events close by or the local one. 

I dont want people to think Im a big fan of David and the USAT Im not. Lord knows I wouldnt want to be the guy defending them on how they implement policy changes. This stay to play policy is a perfect example of how not to do it. Running a NGB is a difficult job. There are a lot of conflicting interests and requirements. There is no way to run a NGB and make everyone happy at the same time. It cant be all things to everybody.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 23, 2010)

cmassman said:


> There is no way to run a NGB and make everyone happy at the same time. It cant be all things to everybody.


 
I agree, but that doesn't make the negative true--that you can't please everyone so why try?

If you start by defining core values of the organization and then articulate a vision, you then have a structure to guide decisionmaking.

I'll concede that developing Olympic level athletes is one priority, but another must be preserving and improving the grassroots level. USAT has articulated both of those ideas, but this situation is one where they've misjudged the appropriate balance.

To me the core conflict is that the BOD is looking for money now at the expense of future athletes. The future is the 5-6 year old colored belts who need to be included in the best quality programming we can offer. They become the 7-8 year old young athletes who completely rely on their parents to be able to take them to events like J.O.'s. In the name of paying to get to 2012, I guess we're writing off athletes for 2020.


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## cmassman (Apr 23, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> I agree, but that doesn't make the negative true--that you can't please everyone so why try?
> 
> If you start by defining core values of the organization and then articulate a vision, you then have a structure to guide decisionmaking.
> 
> ...


 
Carl, I didnt mean to inter that USAT was not trying to please anyone. I think they are. You are correct it is a balancing act between elite athletes and grassroots. I thing it is very difficult to get the perfect balance. I believe it is one of those things we strive for but never really achieve 100%. Both the elite athletes and the grassroots athlete need each other. With out one the other can not exist. Elite athletes need grassroots athletes to support them. Grassroots athletes need the elite athlete to show  them what they can aspire to become. To grow successfully you need a goal to acheive something.


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## RSweet (Apr 23, 2010)

cmassman said:


> Unfortunately what this comes down to is David and his evil henchmen are trying to generate some more cash.  So with that said the poor guy who cant afford the THS hotel will not be able to afford the high entrance. So either way he gets priced out. Not saying its ok, I just saying in life we can always have everything we want.
> 
> Personally, I would like to work on my refereeing skills but I cant afford to take off work and travel to all the various national events, Im limited to going to events close by or the local one.
> 
> I dont want people to think Im a big fan of David and the USAT Im not. Lord knows I wouldnt want to be the guy defending them on how they implement policy changes. This stay to play policy is a perfect example of how not to do it. Running a NGB is a difficult job. There are a lot of conflicting interests and requirements. There is no way to run a NGB and make everyone happy at the same time. It cant be all things to everybody.



To be perfectly clear, I have no issue with USAT getting a rebate on hotel rooms, that is a common policy with many groups. I don't mind them getting so many free rooms for number of nights booked. What I do object to is the forced component to this. Let someone make a choice. If they want to stay there fine, if not fine. If they can get it cheaper by not booking through THS, then USAT needs to make sure they are offering the most competitive rates. At the US Open - rate thru THS for Tropicana was $49 but if you booked on your own, it was $39.

It also hits onto what has been my pet peeve with David for the last few years and his methods of communication and the way he handles things like this. You simply do not change a procedure in the middle of the season. You have no idea how many times I have hounded him and the BOD that USAT needs to get buy in from the membership before making these kinds of changes. There are unintended consequences,not to mention bad will.

Not everyone is going to agree and not everyone is going to be happy. On the other hand, I find it easier to swallow those things I do not agree with when I know that the procedures have been followed and the proper information communication.

Make a change well in advance so members can plan. Be sure you have buy-in before making the change and analyze all the possible outcomes of this change.

If this remains as is, USAT will make a few thousand dollars - ok a few tens of thousands on Stay to Play. On the other hand, how much will USAT lose in membership, participation, secondary sources of income like percentages on t-shirts, photos, etc.....

While I am thrilled he reversed the decision so quickly, I am appalled that once again David has reacted instead of a proactive course of action. This seems to be the pattern. I was told that during his review someone said that David does a good job of cleaning up after these messes. My response was imagine if he didn't cause the mess in the first place, he wouldn't have to clean it up.


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## StudentCarl (Apr 23, 2010)

cmassman: I didn't think that you were implying that. I think the view is very different at the top from those of us at the bottom. I don't think they considered how much anger they'd generate by playing with people's money and freedom of choice.

I understand what they're trying to do financially, but the lack of marketing of the policy change made it a complete failure. Forcing changes vs. selling them.


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## cmassman (Apr 23, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> cmassman: I didn't think that you were implying that. I think the view is very different at the top from those of us at the bottom. I don't think they considered how much anger they'd generate by playing with people's money and freedom of choice.
> 
> I understand what they're trying to do financially, but the lack of marketing of the policy change made it a complete failure. Forcing changes vs. selling them.


 
I couldnt agree more, the USAT really does need to work on selling their policy changes. The way they implemented this one was just sad. With changes like this you need to explain why the change is necessary and what were the other alternatives that were looked at any why we selected the one we did.


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## granfire (Apr 23, 2010)

not to mention not throwing changes at members in mid flight....highly irritating!


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## Bones (Apr 23, 2010)

cmassman said:


> Unfortunately what this comes down to is David and his evil henchmen are trying to generate some more cash. So with that said the poor guy who cant afford the THS hotel will not be able to afford the high entrance. So either way he gets priced out. Not saying its ok, I just saying in life we can always have everything we want.


 

Here is the reality if everything works out for the "henchman."  Everyone stays at a designated hotel and THS and USAT get their cut.  Those who cannot afford the designated hotles get priced out of competing (so much for skill and training).  Then one day we'll have a reduced pool of competitors and not necessarily the best...simply the best who could afford to stay at the THS Express.


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## cmassman (Apr 26, 2010)

Bones said:


> Here is the reality if everything works out for the "henchman." Everyone stays at a designated hotel and THS and USAT get their cut. Those who cannot afford the designated hotles get priced out of competing (so much for skill and training). Then one day we'll have a reduced pool of competitors and not necessarily the best...simply the best who could afford to stay at the THS Express.


 
Yes, we have had this discussion in other threads about people being priced out of the sport due to training cost, coaches etc. This is just part of life. If you want to compete in a sport at the highest level it is going to cost you a significant amount of money. Each person or family needs to make their own choice as to how much cost they are willing incur to compete in a sport. I know people will argue that they couldnt have to sacrifice  to compete in a sport, but the reality is we do


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

cmassman said:


> Yes, we have had this discussion in other threads about people being priced out of the sport due to training cost, coaches etc. This is just part of life. If you want to compete in a sport at the highest level it is going to cost you a significant amount of money. Each person or family needs to make their own choice as to how much cost they are willing incur to compete in a sport. I know people will argue that they couldnt have to sacrifice  to compete in a sport, but the reality is we do



Sacrifice? yes, on many levels.
Being help up (for ransom, basically) by your organization? Not so much.

There are many things where there has to be a say-so from the top that can get expensive, like the gear, as far as lodging goes, or travel, it should really not go past a recommendation!


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## terryl965 (Apr 26, 2010)

well this issue is dead until next year when it become mandatory for all players to stay at a USAT hotel, see everyone at the AAU Nationals.


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> well this issue is dead until next year when it become mandatory for all players to stay at a USAT hotel, see everyone at the AAU Nationals.


So go forth and vote!


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## terryl965 (Apr 26, 2010)

granfire said:


> So go forth and vote!


 
Vote do they still have them or do they just override everything? I mean come on when was the last time they actually voted on something and it stayed?


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## granfire (Apr 26, 2010)

At least if you cast your vote you can wash your hands of it, you did your part, and turn your back on that Mickey Mouse outfit...


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## RSweet (Apr 27, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Vote do they still have them or do they just override everything? I mean come on when was the last time they actually voted on something and it stayed?



You can't vote on it, except with your wallet. However,

consider who supported it - and did nothing. Here is who is up for re-election:

Kevin Padilla - Coach Director - big believer in protect the elite and the money will trickle down.
Mark Williams - Grassroots Director - both he and Padilla were in same school with HP. IMHO his election was validated illegally in 2007 - Ethics Complaint never resolved.
Brad Lunn - Independent
Mark Biviano - Referee Director - pain in DA's rear
Open Grassroots spot - word is that Larry Voorhees, Eui Lee and possibly Michael Tang are running for this spot. Eui Lee is one of the 3 coaches in 2006 who ran for coaches spot where HP made one signature sheet and used for Eui Lee, Kevin Padilla and Jin Suh who lost to Padilla by 1 vote.

Also running for Referee Director - John Holloway and Michael Soper.

Get behind a candidate and do what you can to get them elected. Padilla won by 1 vote - so every single vote counts here.


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## d1jinx (Apr 27, 2010)

RSweet said:


> You can't vote on it, except with your wallet. However,
> 
> consider who supported it - and did nothing. Here is who is up for re-election:
> 
> ...


 
Care to explain how? each year I have randomly change my voting affiliation because I never here anything about voting. maybe I delete the emails and not pay attention. But I have never seen the opputunity to vote. so how does one do so?


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## RSweet (Apr 27, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> Care to explain how? each year I have randomly change my voting affiliation because I never here anything about voting. maybe I delete the emails and not pay attention. But I have never seen the opputunity to vote. so how does one do so?



You've taken the coaching program? Ok - Call Amanda and make sure you are registered as a coach. In the fall they will vote, this year on Hangastar. I assume u will get an email telling you how. If you get a letter, keep it. Usually it is the ballot.

As a school owner, you also get a vote if your school is registered. 

You would have two votes as long as you are registered and current.

get an independent to run. Get behind someone who is running. Or register coaches and have them take the AC on the web and vote Kevin out.

Now it is going to get complicated as Kevin has appointed a task force to review the USAT - starting with the board. They have announced that they will not have elections prior to the meeting. They agreed that they will not fill vacant seats. They agreed this at a meeting in November and just announced it. It is a power grab.

1. There was no legal meeting in November. You can't decide something and not put the minutes out etc...
2. Kevin can't appoint anyone on his own. 
3. The guys appointed, look to the backgrounds and then look West to CA.
4. There are those who would consider it a conflict of interest for Kevin to spearhead changing election procedures and the makeup of the board during an election year - one in which he is running for election.

We stopped Stay and play - next it is time to stop the rest. Read Larry Voorhees notes on the last board meeting on my website or on tkdtoday.


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## d1jinx (Apr 27, 2010)

RSweet said:


> You've taken the coaching program? Ok - Call Amanda and make sure you are registered as a coach. In the fall they will vote, this year on Hangastar. I assume u will get an email telling you how. If you get a letter, keep it. Usually it is the ballot.
> 
> As a school owner, you also get a vote if your school is registered.
> 
> ...


 

Yes, I have been a level 1 since they introduced the program (USAT).  Had the voting preference as an athlete prior (not that i ever seen anything from that either)  
I am also certified Ref.  (best coaches should know the rules from a ref's point of view!!!!!)  About 2 years ago, I changed my voting preference to Referee because a close aquaintance asked us to support him in voting on referee issues, but never got any type of voting choices for that either, this year I changed back to coach voting.  So i will see if I ever get anything for that.  But experience has been, since USAT was "formed", I have never actually seen or been given a chance to vote.  

who knows, maybe all this time someone was forging my vote!!!!!

I hope to get to vote... I would like to change some of the crap going on.

thanks for the info.


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## d1jinx (Apr 27, 2010)

oh... if any of you can....


when the voting starts or you hear about it, can you post the notice hear so i can look for it or a way to do it.  


Thanks


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## ATC (Apr 27, 2010)

Well you can bet I will be voting this year. I too am a level 1 but have never voted. Shame on me.


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## terryl965 (Apr 28, 2010)

Remember vote twice the top teer people do....


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## RSweet (Apr 28, 2010)

ATC said:


> Well you can bet I will be voting this year. I too am a level 1 but have never voted. Shame on me.



1/2 the referees voted last time. 10% of the coaches. Kevin Padilla beat Jin Suh by 1 vote. Coaches need to make sure they are registered and vote. More importantly you need to get behind a candidate. Get your athletes - who can't vote this time to register as referees or coaches. Frankly the referees are well organized - so if it is a coin flip - register as a coach.

You have a coach rep who does not know or follow the bylaws and thinks he is president. He supports everything that you have complained about on here and elsewhere - the selection camps, being on the committee to select National Assistant Coaches, while a candidate for same - etc..... 

Vote for him if you support him, vote against him if you don't - but vote.


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## cmassman (Apr 28, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> well this issue is dead until next year when it become mandatory for all players to stay at a USAT hotel, see everyone at the AAU Nationals.


 
No sense in letting something die when you have a perfectly good horse to beat.


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## RSweet (Apr 28, 2010)

cmassman said:


> No sense in letting something die when you have a perfectly good horse to beat.



While I normally agree with you, in this case, this is not a dead horse. Askinas' note says that it will be mandatory next year. So we can be like DA and be reactive and wait for it to rear its ugly head next year, or we can be proactive and work to:

a) keep it from happening next sure 
b) make sure it is a dead horse forever
c) we take care of the people who created this issue in the first place with no forethought to outcome. Translation - vote out those who did not protect their constituents on this or the selection camps or the top down philosophy and secret meetings with no minutes where decisions are made.

This horse isn't dead - it's bucking like crazy - that is unless you are thrilled and happy with Stay to Play, selection camps, secret meetings with no minutes, violations of IRS statutes etc..


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## cmassman (Apr 28, 2010)

RSweet said:


> This horse isn't dead - it's bucking like crazy - that is unless you are thrilled and happy with Stay to Play, selection camps, secret meetings with no minutes, violations of IRS statutes etc..


 
Violation of an IRS statute can make a guy feel all warm and fuzzy


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## RSweet (Apr 28, 2010)

cmassman said:


> Violation of an IRS statute can make a guy feel all warm and fuzzy



there are a long list of them. IN fact, someone I know (not me though) filed a complaint with the IRS over these. They got a confirmation that it is being looked into.


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