# Postgame Dancers Pepper Sprayed By Police



## MJS (Oct 24, 2011)

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/...Utah-pepper-sprayed-by-?urn=highschool-wp7506




> Controversy has erupted in Utah after police reacted aggressively to a traditional Maori dance being performed by men and high school students after a small town football game on Thursday night.
> 
> According to the Associated Press, Deseret News and Salt Lake Tribune, among other sources, a group of relatives of a player for the Roosevelt (Utah) Union High football team was attacked with pepper spray by police officers in Roosevelt, Utah while performing the dance shortly after Uintah's 17-14 victory. The group performing the Haka reportedly blocked the exit from the field, and while their dance was destined to be a quick one -- as practically all Hakas performed by sports teams are -- police insisted that they move from the area to allow players and others to leave the field.
> When they began dancing instead, Roosevelt police began using pepper spray to displace the crowd.
> "I've never seen anything like it," Union fan Jason Kelly told the Deseret News. "It was totally unprovoked."



Thoughts?

Upon first glance, I dont see much dancing.  Looks like a bunch of people standing around.  I'm wondering, if the entrance was blocked, and it was that much of a hazard, why wasn't the crowd moved along prior to the games end? Perhaps instead of blocking the entrance/exit, the 'dancers' should have either found or been moved to an area that still would have allowed them to do whatever it was they were doing, while at the same time, not blocking people from leaving.


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## jks9199 (Oct 24, 2011)

Not sure.  It looks like they blocked the team from leaving.  Reading it, it appears to be "their" team that was blocked -- but I don't know if the officers knew that.  It doesn't appear that they were wearing school jackets or anything like that...  The dance does appear to include aggressive posturing, which combined with a refusal to move could have been misinterpreted -- especially if the rivalry is at all heated.

It'll need to be investigated, and appropriate action taken at the completion of the investigation.  That action might be an explanation to the public -- or discipline against officers.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2011)

It's not a Maori haka, it's Tongan.

To say a haka appears to include aggressive posturing is something like saying the Pope could be Catholic lol! It is a 'dance' done by Polynesian Warriors not just the Maoris, to challenge someone to fight so it has *very* aggressive gestures, it fact the whole thing is very aggressive. It hypes up the warriors and intimidates their enemy.


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## jks9199 (Oct 24, 2011)

Here's a clip showing one (or maybe two) haka dances.  I don't know if the response is also a haka, kind of like two Thai boxers will each perform their own ram muay before a fight.  





Yeah -- I'm trying to get a team through a gate, and you stand in front of me doing that, I'm likely to assume that you mean business.  And that may indeed mean using force to make a hole.

Could either or both side (crowd or cop) have defused this?  Yeah.  But the crowd created the situation...


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## ballen0351 (Oct 24, 2011)

Might have had something to do with the coach that got his face smashed in a week or two ago by the other team.  I know we had something passed to us in roll call about football games.

http://www.ajc.com/news/high-school-coach-badly-1203243.html


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2011)

Hakas are a Polynesian thing, it's nothing like the Muay Thai thing. Only another Polynesian team would do a haka, on Sunday in the World Cup Final the French team made an arrowshape then walked forward to meet the challenge by the All Blacks.
Here you can learn about it from the New Zealanders themselves. 

http://www.newzealand.com/int/article/haka/

http://www.rugbysongs.net/Haka.htm


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm ... kinda ... surprised that the police did not know what was going on here. I was told stopping the Haka is like halting the national anthem ... just not done. It is the creed of the people, man. I understand how a USA police officer might not get it, but ... locals? Really? At ... a *rugby* event????? Smacks of ... something else to me.


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## jks9199 (Oct 25, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I'm ... kinda ... surprised that the police did not know what was going on here. I was told stopping the Haka is like halting the national anthem ... just not done. It is the creed of the people, man. I understand how a USA police officer might not get it, but ... locals? Really? At ... a *rugby* event????? Smacks of ... something else to me.


It wasn't a rugby game; it was a high school football game.  And in a fair chunk of the US -- especially in the Midwest -- high school football is a really, really big deal.  Even in my area, we've had some pretty nasty fights break out after games between rivals (and sometimes not-rivals).  Like I said, I can see the cops, given the circumstances, and not knowing that it was meant as support, reading it as essentially a hostile picket line.  From the video, the crowd milled around and only started their display as the football team approached.  I'm not saying the cops were automatically right -- but I'm also not saying their wrong.  OC is a reasonable response to the situation, depending on how the cops perceived it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2011)

Watching the Rugby world Cup over the past few weeks I've noticed that no New Zealander has referred to the Haka as a 'dance', I think calling that means that what it is isn't appreciated by the people there so leading to an obviously big misunderstanding. The All Blacks aftr winning the World cup also did a Haka at the end, the New Zealand commentator, ex All Black world Cup winner himself said it was done after a battle as a 'welcome back and well done' so would have been done as the players approached. I think you have a case of cultural misunderstandings here.


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## mook jong man (Oct 25, 2011)

If they pepper sprayed people just doing the haka , they probably would have called in the national guard on these blokes.

[video=youtube_share;Nk2Cwl_flZc]http://youtu.be/Nk2Cwl_flZc[/video]


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## ballen0351 (Oct 25, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Watching the Rugby world Cup over the past few weeks I've noticed that no New Zealander has referred to the Haka as a 'dance', I think calling that means that what it is isn't appreciated by the people there so leading to an obviously big misunderstanding. The All Blacks aftr winning the World cup also did a Haka at the end, the New Zealand commentator, ex All Black world Cup winner himself said it was done after a battle as a 'welcome back and well done' so would have been done as the players approached. I think you have a case of cultural misunderstandings here.


The officers reaction had nothing to do with the dance it was blocking the exit from the stadium.  Had they not been blocking the exit it would have not been an issue.  When the officer told them to make a hole they ignored him.  Had they listened or had they not been blocking the exit they would have been fine.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> The officers reaction had nothing to do with the dance it was blocking the exit from the stadium. Had they not been blocking the exit it would have not been an issue. When the officer told them to make a hole they ignored him. Had they listened or had they not been blocking the exit they would have been fine.




I think you've missed my point. I wasn't saying anything about the police or their actions, I was talking about people, like yourself, who seem to think the Haka is a 'dance' and therefore belittle what they are doing. I'm saying there is cultural differences that have lead to misunderstandings. 

As you've brought it up though, a little patience goes a long way, one officer isn't going to be heard above the noise of a Haka so very unlikely they could have heard him/her. We have Fijians here, they do a Haka, I'm often on duty when they play rugby, we don't have difficulties bascoally because the exits are kept clear at all times so crowds etc are directed corectly. If the scenerio is as you suggest then the stewards were doing a poor job in the first place if the police have to become involved.

Mook Jong Man, the Wallabies done good!


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2011)

I wouldn't take the Polynesians lightly 
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/878801-german-tourist-eaten-by-cannibals-on-pacific-island


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## jks9199 (Oct 25, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> If they pepper sprayed people just doing the haka , they probably would have called in the national guard on these blokes.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;Nk2Cwl_flZc]http://youtu.be/Nk2Cwl_flZc[/video]


Time & place.

Middle of the field, by the players...  intent and purpose is clear.

Done while apparently blocking a team from exiting?  While ignoring police direction to give way?  Now we hit a potential problem.

Like I said; either side could have acted to defuse the situation in a number ways, but I do put the primary burden on the people doing something they weren't supposed to in a place they weren't supposed to be.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2011)

Could just be a balls up due to lack of communication. As I said the stewards should have the exits covered so that they couldn't be blocked (there were stewards? very bad if there wasn't) they could have guided the Haka away before it started, they should have be briefed it was likely there would be one. If properly stewarded there would have been no need for police action. If there was just the one police officer trying to direct a large amount of people away it's likely he /she wouldn't have been heard or perhaps even seen.
Proper stewarding means no non players on the pitch, means all exits are open, they should control the crowd well before and after the match. Down to whoever organised the match to make sure security arrangements are correct.


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## mook jong man (Oct 25, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I wouldn't take the Polynesians lightly
> http://www.metro.co.uk/news/878801-german-tourist-eaten-by-cannibals-on-pacific-island




I've never seen a light Polynesian , they all look pretty heavy to me.   :ultracool


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> I've never seen a light Polynesian , they all look pretty heavy to me. :ultracool



Tell me about it! The reason the army here recruits so many is for the rugby team, the Scots Guards have a few, quite funny in kilts! That and they are ferocious fighters!


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## jks9199 (Oct 25, 2011)

A few things about high school football...

Even though it's a big deal in a lot of communities, the "stewards" are generally teachers and parents.  Maybe a few school security staff.  There'll typically be a couple of cops around to deal with problems and keep a lid on things.  They're a minor security force.  If it's a slow night, you might get a couple of other area units sneaking in for a few minutes now and then.

Should the cops in the area have had some familiarity with customs like the haka?  Yeah, ideally.  But realistically -- maybe, maybe not.  Let alone recogniaieat the time of the offense.  Should the school representatives have worked harder to keep the exit clear?  Yeah, probably.  Could someone in the group have simply made a hole to let the players out?  Yeah.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2011)

Speaking from experience I think discretion would have been the better part of valour here, it would have taken little for people to wait a couple of minutes until the Haka was finished though it was have been far better to have cleared the exit as soon as anyone started congregating there, there was a crowd there for a while before the police officer started to take any action. This makes it look as if it was the Haka he was objecting to, otherwise he should have moved them on much earlier. The use of pepper spray seems to indicate that the officer felt threatened by the Haka. That's what it looks like. The use of the spray could have caused a panic. Crowds and panic aren't good, think the Hillborough disaster or Heysel stadium. It doesn't have to be a big crowd to seriously injure or kill someone.
Stewarding is important whenever there is a sizable crowd, it doesn't matter whether it's a professional sports event or a kids game, where there's a crowd there's all sorts of dangers.


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## David43515 (Oct 25, 2011)

I`m suprised it happened in Utah. somewhere around 80% of Polynesians are LDS (Mormon) and almost every Tongan, Maori, or Samoan I`ve ever met was from Utah. I would`ve assumed the cop knew what it was....but it sounds more than likely that Tez hit the nail on the head. Someone didn`t know what it was, and it was being done in an area that should have been more controlled.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 26, 2011)

David43515 said:


> I`m suprised it happened in Utah. somewhere around 80% of Polynesians are LDS (Mormon) and almost every Tongan, Maori, or Samoan I`ve ever met was from Utah. I would`ve assumed the cop knew what it was....but it sounds more than likely that Tez hit the nail on the head. Someone didn`t know what it was, and it was being done in an area that should have been more controlled.



I see it differently I dont think it matter what they were doing haka, irish jig, square dance, break dance, kata, ect.  All they had to do was move 5 feet left or right away from the exit and they can dance all they want.  Common sence should tell you not to block the exits.  Common sence should also tell you when an officer walks up while you blocking the exit and says move and hes got a can of OC Spray in his hand you might want to move.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I see it differently I dont think it matter what they were doing haka, irish jig, square dance, break dance, kata, ect. All they had to do was move 5 feet left or right away from the exit and they can dance all they want. Common sence should tell you not to block the exits. Common sence should also tell you when an officer walks up while you blocking the exit and says move and hes got a can of OC Spray in his hand you might want to move.



I disagree, they should have been moved on as soon a couple of them started congregating at the exit, a crowd should never have been allowed to build up there. Common sense would tell you that once the noise level has built up one officer's voice won't be heard nor likely will he be noticed through no malice on the crowds part. If the officer had moved them when it was only a couple of people, kept moving them it wouldn't have happened. Spraying a crowd like that could cause a panic, the worse possible thing that could happen. The last thing you want is people being crushed by others.

It's not dance, it's a Haka.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 26, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I disagree, they should have been moved on as soon a couple of them started congregating at the exit, a crowd should never have been allowed to build up there. Common sense would tell you that once the noise level has built up one officer's voice won't be heard nor likely will he be noticed through no malice on the crowds part. If the officer had moved them when it was only a couple of people, kept moving them it wouldn't have happened. Spraying a crowd like that could cause a panic, the worse possible thing that could happen. The last thing you want is people being crushed by others.
> 
> It's not dance, it's a Haka.



How do you know from the short clip that a teacher wasnt trying to clear the exit and they were not listening so he went and got a cop to help.  Or How do you know the Cop didn't ask them 20 times to move before he took out his spray?  You dont know what happened prior to the tape starting. 

Spraying two or three people accomplised the goal it was a small crowd of 15 to 20 people not 200.  Nobody was going to be crushed.  Plus he didnt spray the crowd he sparyed to or three people directly you can see in the clip which ones he sprayed.

And it is a dance these are a bunch of kids from Utah not Warriors on the battle field.


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> I see it differently I dont think it matter what they were doing haka, irish jig, square dance, break dance, kata, ect.  All they had to do was move 5 feet left or right away from the exit and they can dance all they want.*  Common sence* should tell you not to block the exits.  *Common sence* should also tell you when an officer walks up while you blocking the exit and says move and hes got a can of OC Spray in his hand you might want to move.



You hit the nail on the head!  Bold emphasis mine.  Sadly a large portion of the population seems to be lacking that.


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2011)

You're both making some valid points, however, I'll put blame on the crowd and the cops.  The crowd..well, for being a bunch of dummies and the cops for waiting until things got out of hand and then acting.  

Now, I wasn't there, nobody here was there, so its all speculation.  However, I"m going to assume that there was more than 1 person there acting as security.  That said, call for some backup.  If they're not going to respond to verbal commands, start to physically move them.  If they're not responding to that, then move to the next option which would be the OC.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 26, 2011)

MJS said:


> Now, I wasn't there, nobody here was there, so its all speculation. However, I"m going to assume that there was more than 1 person there acting as security. That said, call for some backup. If they're not going to respond to verbal commands, start to physically move them. If they're not responding to that, then move to the next option which would be the OC.


It depends when I first became a cop I worked for a small department we had total of 45 officers.  We worked the high school games as an OT assingment and normally it was a single officer if it was a rival game then 2 at most.

Also we dont know his SOP's  His force ladder might have OC 1st before trying to physically touching people.  When we first got tasers my admin didnt know where to place them on the ladder so they made them #2 after verbal commands.  We were not allowed to touch anyone we gave a warning if it was not listened too we were to deploy the taser.  Then they saw how much it was costing at $20 a pop for cartridges and they changed itto between OC and Impact weapon.


In reality this should not even be news worthy.  People get OC used on them all the time the only reason this is getting any air time is because people are trying to make a race issue out of it when its not.  Had this been a group of white kids dancing a jig nothing would have been said but someone saw a way to create an oppresssed victim class and bam people jumped on it.


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> It depends when I first became a cop I worked for a small department we had total of 45 officers.  We worked the high school games as an OT assingment and normally it was a single officer if it was a rival game then 2 at most.



True, I didn't think about that.  Then again, when we have games where I work, the guys who usually patrol the district where the game is taking place, usually do their best to hang around that area, esp. when its time to end.  



> Also we dont know his SOP's  His force ladder might have OC 1st before trying to physically touching people.  When we first got tasers my admin didnt know where to place them on the ladder so they made them #2 after verbal commands.  We were not allowed to touch anyone we gave a warning if it was not listened too we were to deploy the taser.  Then they saw how much it was costing at $20 a pop for cartridges and they changed itto between OC and Impact weapon.



Good point. 




> In reality this should not even be news worthy.  People get OC used on them all the time the only reason this is getting any air time is because people are trying to make a race issue out of it when its not.  Had this been a group of white kids dancing a jig nothing would have been said but someone saw a way to create an oppresssed victim class and bam people jumped on it.



Yup.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2011)

It shouldn't have got so far that it had to be a police issue. As I said stewards should have moved the people away before it became a crowd, people will stop anywhere they aren't moved away. Once people become a crowd it's more difficult to deal with.


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## jks9199 (Oct 27, 2011)

Tez,

While I hear that Brits will form a queue simply because there are 3 of them together... folks here in the US are different.  They have a tendency to form a mob as soon as they have 1 person in the group... 

Also -- as I've said before -- typically, at a high school football game, there may be a couple of teachers, parents, or school security staff members providing crowd "control."  They don't do much, and may not be allowed to do so much as guide a person with a touch.

Yes, the exits should have been kept clear.  Yes, the cops might not have needed to use OC had lots of things been done differently.  Blame lies on both sides, and given that -- when I balance it out, the teeter-totter swings over to the people who weren't in the right place, and whose actions created problems.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2011)

For all our queuing habits we've had some very nasty crowd tragedies, so much so we are probably quite paranoid about crowd control at sports events. Even small events get serious stewarding and security. I think perhaps your high school games probably have as many spectators as some of our lower league professional football games. 
We are haunted here by the 1989 Hillsborough disaster where 99 were crushed to death, 1985, Heysel 39 dead, crushed also Bradford where there was a fire in a stadium, 56 dead, over 200 injured. 1971 Ibrox Glasgow 66 Rangers fans crushed to death. These are just the major disasters that I've seen.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/3003121/Football-stadium-disasters.html

These, I'm afraid, are seared on our brains, we sat and watched them all unfold on television as the games were being shown live. There's pictures I believe on Youtube if you want to look. We were shown the police videos when we were in training, ghastly. It makes my blood run cold when I see potential disasters caused by bad or no stewarding and things like part of the crowd being gassed, the panic it can cause doesn't bear thinking about.

This happened just the other week.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...bila-Nanfuka-killed-2-critically-injured.html


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## ballen0351 (Oct 27, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Even small events get serious stewarding and security. I think perhaps your high school games probably have as many spectators as some of our lower league professional football games.



It depends on where in the country were talking about in some parts of the south High School Football is King other parts of the country like where I live not so much.  My kids High School does not even have a football team.  Ive gone to high school games and theres been 100 people max in the stands watching VS. when I lived in South Carolina Ive been to games where it looked like everyone in a 50 mile radius showed up to the game.  
Most High Schools cant afford to hire security for these events with budget cuts and things so you get a few teachers that attend and 2 or 3 cops if they are lucky.  As of late at least where I work things are starting to change and more security and police are attending not because of crowds but because of violence like shooting, stabbings, and fights.

I still find it kind of amazing this is even being reported at all.  People get sprayed 1000's of times a day in this country and its no big deal yet this case where a few people got sprayed and NOBODY was hurt  has casued this much attention.  I stand by my eariler comment had this been a group of white guys this would have never even made the paper


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2011)

You spray thousands of people every day? Wow, to you it's that common and no big deal? to be honest I don't know what to say, it's certainly not that common here.
It was reported I imagine because it _looks_ like it was directed at 'foreigners' doing a 'funny dance'. As we don't know what was in that particular officer's mind at the time we can't tell whether he was directing it at them because he thought they were threatening him and/or someone else or because he didn't like them. The guys are standing there, left alone then they start the haka and are gassed, that's what it_ looks_ like so that's why it made the news.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 27, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You spray thousands of people every day? Wow, to you it's that common and no big deal? to be honest I don't know what to say, it's certainly not that common here.
> It was reported I imagine because it _looks_ like it was directed at 'foreigners' doing a 'funny dance'. As we don't know what was in that particular officer's mind at the time we can't tell whether he was directing it at them because he thought they were threatening him and/or someone else or because he didn't like them. The guys are standing there, left alone then they start the haka and are gassed, that's what it_ looks_ like so that's why it made the news.



1000s a day is just my own personal guess I have zero evidence to back it up and could be way wrong Im just guessing based on my own experiance with where I work we spray alot of people. Our SOP says we should use spray before physical force so people are sprayed daily here.


It dosent look that way to me.  I dont commonly go around looking for a victim class.  I see a group of people blocking an exit and not moving when told to.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> 1000s a day is just my own personal guess I have zero evidence to back it up and could be way wrong Im just guessing based on my own experiance with where I work we spray alot of people. Our SOP says we should use spray before physical force so people are sprayed daily here.
> 
> 
> *It dosent look that way to me. I dont commonly go around looking for a victim class. I see a group of people blocking an exit and not moving when told to.[/*QUOTE]
> ...


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## seasoned (Oct 27, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Yes, the exits should have been kept clear. Yes, the cops might not have needed to use OC had lots of things been done differently. Blame lies on both sides, and given that -- when I balance it out, the teeter-totter swings over to the *people who weren't in the right place, and whose actions created problems*.



Should have, could have, would have. 

Were dealing with face value. Exit blocked, needs to be open, job done..............


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2011)

Only one exit? I doubt it, people could have been directed to leave by another.Was it imperative that people leave right that minute, was there a fire or could they have waited a few minutes while the crowd were moved on properly? Spraying people may be acceptable to you but here there would have been an uproar if the police hadn't found an alternative way of dealing with the problem. It smacks of panic to be honest, people in the way? Just pepper spray them. Sorry but that's panic tactics and the quickest way to get a crowd who had previously been in a good mood against you. Crowd control is an art.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlabb3kTHWI&NR=1


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## Carol (Oct 28, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Only one exit? I doubt it, people could have been directed to leave by another.Was it imperative that people leave right that minute, was there a fire or could they have waited a few minutes while the crowd were moved on properly? Spraying people may be acceptable to you but here there would have been an uproar if the police hadn't found an alternative way of dealing with the problem. It smacks of panic to be honest, people in the way? Just pepper spray them. Sorry but that's panic tactics and the quickest way to get a crowd who had previously been in a good mood against you. Crowd control is an art.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wlabb3kTHWI&NR=1



The spectators will always have more than one exit to use, even outdoors. But this was one exit from pitch.  This is not only typical, it is desirable.   The players come and go as a team.  Plus, there is the factor of player safety (layers of seperation, a banged up/sick/dizzy/disoriented player isn't wandering off on their own) 

The victorious players using their haka to seemingly block the other team and players from leaving.  Basically taking the celebration and giving it a bit of American in-your-face brash to the other team, while being egged on by few supporting fans.  I highly doubt the players wanted to cause a riot, but this sort of stuff is what can easily spark one.  

There's more than just hometown pride, historic rivalries and good old fashioned machismo at work here.   The cost of a university education in this country has gone through the roof.  With the billion dollar NCAA machine rich scholarships and posh lodging to student athletes, a high schooler with an unspectacular academic record can get a free ride to a large, wealthy university if they are a good enough ball player.  The fierce competition and desire for these scholarships has sparked some rather unsportsmanlike behaviour from players and parents alike.

You can hear some friendly (student) voices calling to make a hole on the video, it seems to me that the supporters of the victorious players even wanted them to move and not actually block the exit.  Wish this could have ended differently.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2011)

And these are all children under the age of 18? I'm speechless tbh. Children being pepper spray, 'banged up' ( we don't allow under 18s head shots in MMA), 'rioting' etc etc. Wow, again.


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## jks9199 (Oct 28, 2011)

The crowd will consist of people from infants/toddler to great-grandparents.  In short -- all ages.  The group in the clip looked to me to be teens to adults, which would be the bulk of the crowd.

I don't have a major problem with the officer's tactics, if you haven't noticed.  He had what could easily have appeared to be a group blocking the exit and trying to have a confrontation with the exiting team.  He told them to let the team out, and they didn't listen.  He then acted to enable that.  OC isn't fun -- but it's not permanent harm.  Even without some sort of decontamination (read soap and water), the effect dissipates over about 30 minutes.  That's the direct exposure.  Most of the people?  They probably smelled it more than actually experienced it.  Maybe he should have waded in with a baton, cracking shins and skulls?


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## Carol (Oct 28, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> And these are all children under the age of 18? I'm speechless tbh. Children being pepper spray, 'banged up' ( we don't allow under 18s head shots in MMA), 'rioting' etc etc. Wow, again.



They went through much worse in 60 minutes of football...trust me


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2011)

Carol said:


> They went through much worse in 60 minutes of football...trust me



Exactly, as I said we don't allow our under 18 MMA fighters head shots and in rugby, where there's no shoulder pads, helmets or protection other than groin guards and gumshields we are careful with the under 18s. In the adult games of rugby we've had people killed or left paralysed with broken necks so being careful with kids is the priority.

I'm not convinced that pepper spraying is a good way to control crowds. Crowds are a totally different entity to individuals, one moment of panic can easily lead to deaths even in a small crowd. You want people moving not running around like headless chickens and causing problems.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2011)

http://drury.socialpsychology.org/
http://www.sussex.ac.uk/affiliates/panic/

An interesting study on crowds.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 28, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not convinced that pepper spraying is a good way to control crowds. Crowds are a totally different entity to individuals, one moment of panic can easily lead to deaths even in a small crowd. You want people moving not running around like headless chickens and causing problems.



Works well every time Ive used it on crowds.  Its My prefered method of crowd control.  Got a bar thats getting a little rowdy give a couple blasts of OC and boom bars closed for the night no more problems.  Got a street corner you need cleared and you have asked them to move several times Opps my oc can went off how did that happen corners cleared for a while.  Got a rowdy group of kids dancing in an exit spray 1 or 2 and poof exits clear.  Got a loud mouth kid causing trouble give him a shot of oc he shuts up and goes home crying better then the alternitive of going hands on and him getting hurt.  

Just like anything else in Police work and in life there is no 1 thing that works all the time.  In this case it worked well and did what it was supposed to.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 28, 2011)

Ballen, as a serious question, I can't for the life of me imagine how you can 'get away' with such behaviour.  Police over here, even in perfectly legitimate execution of their duties, have to constrain themselves within pretty strict boundaries of tactic.  If they stray beyond those bounds then they can find themselves in all sorts of trouble - I would have thought, given the litigious reputation of the USA, that it was even more so over on your side of the Pond?


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## ballen0351 (Oct 28, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Ballen, as a serious question, I can't for the life of me imagine how you can 'get away' with such behaviour.  Police over here, even in perfectly legitimate execution of their duties, have to constrain themselves within pretty strict boundaries of tactic.  If they stray beyond those bounds then they can find themselves in all sorts of trouble - I would have thought, given the litigious reputation of the USA, that it was even more so over on your side of the Pond?



LOL I guess we need a sarcasim font.  Of course I WAY  OVER simplfied the examples I was using.  I guess Ill have to give real life applications for you to understand what I ment
example #1 Get called to a rowdy bar.  Walk in and see 4 or 5 guys fighting in the bar.  Usually we send 2 cops to evey call.  Go inside see the fight call for more units and order the fight to break up.  When the drunk guys fighting refuse to stop my SOP says I am to try Spray before I put my hands on some one.  So I deploy my OC spray at the guys fighting.  Well using OC inside will cause others to smell it.  They dont really feel any effects other then maybe a scratchy throat (Like cooking with alot of hot peppers and the smell is in the kitchen makes you cough a little).  It fixes 2 problems First the fight is over 2nd the bar closes for the night so they can clean up the mess and air the bar out.

#2 was more of an inside joke.  My department wears Leather duty gear.  Some of the old timers put the OC can in the front of the belt and use it as an arm rest.  Well the leather wears out and streaches and get soft.  We got a call for bunch of dealers on the corner and I go out there and my post partner at the time was a 25 year PFC the kinda fat slob cop you see eatting donuts has mustard stains on his uniforms ect.  Well he walks up to the crowd and assumes his possion of one arm resting on his gun which is hanging like barney fife due to his belt streaching over the years and his other resting on the leather OC can holder.  Well some how the leather just got so soft he started spraying the can inside his belt.  It cleared the corner and drenched him in OC before he realized what happened.  It was very funny at the time.

#3 was in talking about the OP bunch of kids dancing after the game cop sprays a few and they all leave.

#4 was a punk kid prob 16 I guess acting a fool in front of his friends showing off yelling at a few of us that were busy arresting his buddy.  He pulls his shirt off and starts saying he coming to help his friend and approaches in an agressive manner.  So a quick little spray to his face he screams and runs off home.  Alternative would have been he approaches us tries to fight us he gets slammed on the ground cuffed up and arrested.  Now hes hurt, and arrested, and has that on his record his whole life when in reality all he did was run home jump in the shower and didnt have to deal with legal issues for the rest of his life.

My point was OC spray is not that bad.  Some were making the case that its this terrible substance that just the sight of the stuff will cause mass panic and deaths in the streets.  Its just not the case.  Ive been sprayed countless times its not a big deal hurts for 5 or 10 min and its over.  Ive been tased a few times for training and Id take OC over a taser anyday.  

Sorry if I gave the impression I just ride around with fire extingushers full of OC spraying babies and nuns in the street.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 28, 2011)

Ahhhh I see .  Cheers and aye, the Net does need a Times New Sarcastic font big time :lol:.


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## Carol (Oct 28, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Sorry if I gave the impression I just ride around with fire extingushers full of OC...



Oh! Oh!  Does this mean I don't have to give mine back?  I kinda like this size...you know, self defense and bicep curls, all while walking to your car


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## jks9199 (Oct 28, 2011)

Well... I'd take a Taser hit over OC any day.  Taser's over in 5 seconds.  OC is the gift that keeps on giving...  And in my experience, it works best on the cops, not the bad guys.  Though it is a good crowd dispersal tool...  Just the smell does the trick a lot of the time.  And the fire extinguisher size OC fogger...  designed for dispersing crowds.

OC is an intermediate force option; most models put it above some relatively gentle hand techniques and in the same general area as baton strikes, though slightly lower.  (Here's one of the most commonly used current models, in my experience.)  In fact, let's look at that Use of Force Model to assess this particular case.  The subjects's actions fall in the Resister range; they were refusing to move in response to verbal commands.  You could argue that their haka was sufficiently aggressive to create the argument that they be placed in the bottom range of Assailants (aggressively offensive/hostile without weapons).  As we look at the chart, we find that Chemical Agents like OC certainly fall within the range of acceptable controls without crossing over into excessive force.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 28, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Well... I'd take a Taser hit over OC any day.  Taser's over in 5 seconds.  OC is the gift that keeps on giving...  And in my experience, it works best on the cops, not the bad guys.  Though it is a good crowd dispersal tool...  Just the smell does the trick a lot of the time.  And the fire extinguisher size OC fogger...  designed for dispersing crowds.
> 
> OC is an intermediate force option; most models put it above some relatively gentle hand techniques and in the same general area as baton strikes, though slightly lower.  (Here's one of the most commonly used current models, in my experience.)  In fact, let's look at that Use of Force Model to assess this particular case.  The subjects's actions fall in the Resister range; they were refusing to move in response to verbal commands.  You could argue that their haka was sufficiently aggressive to create the argument that they be placed in the bottom range of Assailants (aggressively offensive/hostile without weapons).  As we look at the chart, we find that Chemical Agents like OC certainly fall within the range of acceptable controls without crossing over into excessive force.



See OC does not bother me anymore.  I can take an OC hit and stand there and hold a conversation with you.  Tasers I dont mind the shock its the probes and the burn marks I dont like.  I still have scars from taking the ride


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> *See OC does not bother me anymore.* I can take an OC hit and stand there and hold a conversation with you. Tasers I dont mind the shock its the probes and the burn marks I dont like. I still have scars from taking the ride



I thought the general idea was to spray others not yourself? Still I expect it makes for a cheaper police force if you rely on things like pepper spray rather than training courses etc.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I thought the general idea was to spray others not yourself? Still I expect it makes for a cheaper police force if you rely on things like pepper spray rather than training courses etc.


Im an OC instructor so Ive been sprayed alot.  But in reality Ive been sprayed more by other cops then anyting else.  You get to fighting with a bad guy your partner decides to "HELP" by spraying the guy he misses and sprays me.


And it has nothing to do with lack of training.  We have found at my department thru use of force studies that by putting things like OC before  hands on physical contact on the force continuum injuries to both officers and suspects went down.  And after we got tasers officer injuries went down again.  The number off officers we have on light duty has dropped 45% just by moving things around on our force continuum.  Its about keep us safe not a cheaper force.


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## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> I thought the general idea was to spray others not yourself? Still I expect it makes for a cheaper police force if you rely on things like pepper spray rather than training courses etc.


Tez, that's kind of a cheap shot.  We don't know whether ballen's agency does the bare minimum or far exceeds it in training.  They've chosen a use of force   model that's different from what you're used to.  Perhaps social controls work more effectively in your community than in a many US communities.  By and large, the US is a much more diverse population than any other nation, and I do recognize that the UK is a diverse community when I say that.

To me, it's simple.  Something had to be done to control the situation.  That something could potentially have been anything from waiting till they got out of the way all the way to opening fire and blasting a hole through the crowd.  Simple commands and social controls had failed.  Perhaps the officer should have recognized the haka for what it was; in all honestly, I might not have in those circumstances, even now.  It wasn't the whole crowd; it was a relative handful of participants.   Would you be able to recognize it, seeing it in jumpy pieces, as you escort a team out, with your head on a swivel?  The officer used OC; it was an acceptable option in the force continuum.  It doesn't have to be what you would have done.  It doesn't even have to be the perfect option; it just has to be reasonable in light of the circumstances.  He had a crowd, which wasn't obeying commands and instead began a hostile display (you've admitted that the haka IS a hostile display), and he escalated his use of force to the next level.  The rest of the stuff preventing is moot; it had already failed.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Im an OC instructor so Ive been sprayed alot. But in reality Ive been sprayed more by other cops then anyting else. You get to fighting with a bad guy your partner decides to "HELP" by spraying the guy he misses and sprays me.
> 
> 
> And it has nothing to do with lack of training. We have found at my department thru use of force studies that by putting things like OC before hands on physical contact on the force continuum injuries to both officers and suspects went down. And after we got tasers officer injuries went down again. The number off officers we have on light duty has dropped 45% just by moving things around on our force continuum. Its about keep us safe not a cheaper force.




Seems not all are in agreement with you, this is an American site.

http://www.policetest.info/FORCE_CONTINUUM_POLICE_USE_OF_FORCE.htm

_" Pepper spray, once thought an effective street tool for police officers has lost popularity over the years because of its ineffectiveness, especially on intoxicated persons."

_And this
http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1558850&show=abstract
_"OC reduced aggressiveness among suspects already aggressive, but it induced aggression among initially non-aggressive subjects_"
http://policestudies.homestead.com/pepperspray.html

_"Six to 15 per cent of all uses of pepper spray were against suspects that did not pose any threat to the officer concerned or to others. In light of the painful effects of pepper spray and the discussion that took place during the street trials about the right place of pepper spray in the use-of-force continuum, it is important to ensure that pepper spray is not deployed all too easily. This would not only be in disregard of the principles of subsidiarity and proportionality. It would also harm the police image and public acceptance of pepper spray as a proper police weapon."

__An analysis of 1882 reports concerning 1603 incidents in which an individual was actually sprayed with pepperspray (one incident could involve more than one officer or suspect) indicated that officers seemed justly satisfied with pepperspray: OC-spray makes it possible to effectively control a (potentially) dangerous suspect from a safe distance and without serious consequences. The availability of pepperspray was often effective in itself, and this preventive effect seemed to get stronger. However, compared with the previously held street trials, effectiveness of actual use of OC-spray seemed to have diminished.


_There's a place for it but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing.
I think you all must be used to higher levels of violence than we are here.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Seems not all are in agreement with you, this is an American site.
> 
> http://www.policetest.info/FORCE_CONTINUUM_POLICE_USE_OF_FORCE.htm
> 
> ...



Ive already said there is nothing that works 100% of the time.  Its a Tool not a death machine like you were implying in past post about mass panic and people being crushed at the sight of the OC can.  

Ive know people it has no effect myself included.  The teacher who taught my OC Instructor class sprayed OC on a cracker and ate it to show it was harmless. We have a HUGE PCP problem here and it has no effect on someone under the effects of PCP (sadly neither do battons, fists, knees, or elbows)  Someone on PCP does not register pain so pain compliance is not effective on them.  Now Ive sprayed quite a few people in my time as an officer and I can only think of twice where it didnt work (excluding PCP users).  So for me its effective.  Also as I said my department did an internal study on use of force and officer and suspect injuries and our study showed the less our officers have to go hands on with suspect the safer it is for both sides.  That may not work everywhere but it works here.  
Maybe my bad guys are different then your bad guys.  It sounds like you can reason with your bad guys and they listen to you and your superior training and verbal judo skills.  However where I work it just wont work.  I happy that you dont have to deal with the violence that we do.  My officers are assaulted daily, were spit on, cussed at, have bottles thrown at our cars as we drive thru certain areas.  There are housing projects where we have to send a min of 3 officers to every call 2 to handle the call one to watch the police cars so they are not destroyed while they are unoccupied.  We have a huge influx of gangs ranging fom MS-13 to local blood sets.  They are fighting with our home grown gangs like the Get money hustlers, Kapital Krime Krew, ect.  I just cant see me walking up to a  gang banger say MS-13 with a homicide warrant from Washington Dc or Northern VA and trying to talk him into coming along with me peacfully.  Maybe Ill ask my LT to send me over to your side of the pond so I can get some of the awsome training you have and all will be right with the world.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2011)

Sarcasm again? And twisting of words, well done. I thought we were talking about the OP and the sports crowd not gang members etc etc. 
Perhaps you should come across to the Province and deal with the IRA, the Provos and the Loyalists. Perhaps you thought it was all finished? Sorry, no police officers and others are still being blown up and shot. Police officers still have to carry their weapons when off duty because the terrorists know where they live so will come to shoot them and their families. Perhaps your families should live in the fear many of ours do. Perhaps you can come across to Afghan where many of my colleagues work (no we aren't military) training Afghan police officers as well as facing suicide bombers and rogue 'police officers'.
Try not to be so sarcastic when you don't know what we do, I was keeping to the subject of the OP hence the quote about non violent people being sprayed and it making them violent, an own goal if ever there was one and could be applied in the OP. If you want to talk training start another thread.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Sarcasm again? And twisting of words, well done. I thought we were talking about the OP and the sports crowd not gang members etc etc.
> Perhaps you should come across to the Province and deal with the IRA, the Provos and the Loyalists. Perhaps you thought it was all finished? Sorry, no police officers and others are still being blown up and shot. Police officers still have to carry their weapons when off duty because the terrorists know where they live so will come to shoot them and their families. Perhaps your families should live in the fear many of ours do. Perhaps you can come across to Afghan where many of my colleagues work (no we aren't military) training Afghan police officers as well as facing suicide bombers and rogue 'police officers'.
> Try not to be so sarcastic when you don't know what we do, I was keeping to the subject of the OP hence the quote about non violent people being sprayed and it making them violent, an own goal if ever there was one and could be applied in the OP. If you want to talk training start another thread.



Lucky for me im not in Afghan.  If I was OC spray would be the last thing I grab.  Im talking about Police work not War.
 You were the sarcastic one talking about my training.  You changed the topic from the OP when you started quoting stats on the effectiveness of OC on the individual and making little smart comments Like "but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing."  I guess I dont like my job preformance being question by someone who has ZERO idea about what US policing in an Urban enviroment is all about.  Someone from the begining of this thread was against the officer and tried very hard to make a race issue over it cause a bunch of kids were doing a dance and got sprayed.  So in closing  You just keep guarding your base how you want to and Ill keep doing police work how I want to.  We both seem to be doing a fine job at it so Your way works for you and my way works for me.  Good luck, stay safe sounds real nasty over there.

RIP Brothers and Sisters
http://www.policememorial.org.uk/index.html 
http://www.odmp.org/


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Lucky for me im not in Afghan. If I was OC spray would be the last thing I grab. Im talking about Police work not War.
> You were the sarcastic one talking about my training. You changed the topic from the OP when you started quoting stats on the effectiveness of OC on the individual and making little smart comments Like "but it cannot be used indiscriminately instead of good policing." I guess I dont like my job preformance being question by someone who has ZERO idea about what US policing in an Urban enviroment is all about. Someone from the begining of this thread was against the officer and tried very hard to make a race issue over it cause a bunch of kids were doing a dance and got sprayed. So in closing You just keep guarding your base how you want to and Ill keep doing police work how I want to. We both seem to be doing a fine job at it so Your way works for you and my way works for me. Good luck, stay safe sounds real nasty over there.
> 
> RIP Brothers and Sisters
> ...



I am not guarding a base I'm afraid , so sorry to disappoint you besides it was _your_ base anyway. You're paying for it and the policing! The American tax payer pays for the MDP to be there including a very nice overtime bill because of the protestors.
Policing in an urban environment isn't the same as pepper spraying a bunch of high school kids who were somewhat exhuberantly celebrating their mate.
 The MDP is in Afghan teaching the Afghans how to be police officers, it's not 'war'.
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...ns/ModPoliceHelpCreateAnAfghanPoliceForce.htm

I said at the start good stewarding would have stopped the situation from happening. The police officer looked as if he was panicking or was perhaps just feeling stroppy. The way people are saying 'dance' seems to mean they are unaware of cultural differences. Btw I regularly come into conflict with Fijians, very large, military trained, rugby playing Fijians, who are as nissed as pewts and very little affects them when they are sober so pepper spray is pointless, they aren't even that bothered by military CS when they do the drills. Good soldiers,. nightmare when out drunk.
I would suggest you hadn't read the articles I posted, they detail both the bad and the *good *points of spraying. Spraying teenagers because they wouldn't or couldn't move because they didn't hear the officer telling them to doesn't really count as a a major cause for riot control.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2011)

http://www.policememorial.org.uk/Forces/IRELAND/Northern_Ireland-Criminal_Acts.htm

Off on nights now, the usual... fights, rape allegations, domestic abuse, break ins, accidents, thefts, assaults, criminal damage, muggings, poachers, same old, same old.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> You're paying for it and the policing! The American tax payer pays for the MDP to be there including a very nice overtime bill because of the protestors.
> 
> 
> Well then Your welcome Im glad I can give you a job, happy I can help.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > You're paying for it and the policing! The American tax payer pays for the MDP to be there including a very nice overtime bill because of the protestors.
> ...


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## ballen0351 (Oct 29, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> ballen0351 said:
> 
> 
> > I think that proves you don't read my posts, I don't guard your camp. I just remove people now and again. The British tax payer pays for me with the Queen being my boss. The British tax payer pays my wages and HRH the Queen is my boss.
> ...


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## jks9199 (Oct 29, 2011)

Y'know what?

I've had the chance to swap stories with British cops.  Yeah, there are differences in how we work.  Hell, there are differences in how cops work in agencies that border each other.  We still have more in common with each other than different...

And trying to argue whose beat is tougher goes nowhere fast... unless the goal is to make each other angry.


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## Carol (Oct 29, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> e a bunch of kids were doing a dance and got sprayed.



Or you could say a bunch of 200 pound dudes jacked on testosterone and adrenaline did a coordinated execution of the oldest bullying techniques around...preventing someone from leaving a room or an area.   They didn't move even after other students and cops told them to make a hole.  Its this kind of crap that crosses the line between intimidation and threat and I think the responding officers saw that clearly.  Now the footballers are humiliated that they got caught and "nooo, its cuuultchaaaa" is just a variation of the indignant "But I didn't do anything..." whine.  

Maybe now the footballers will get the the message that just because you're a big dude that can play a ball game doesn't mean you can do whatever you damn well please...but I doubt it.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > I read your posts I was just being a smart butt
> ...


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## jks9199 (Oct 30, 2011)

Most HS stadiums in my experience only really have one or two entrances.  The central field (big enough for football, soccer & now lacrosse) is usually surrounded by a track used for the various races in track & field events.  There's typically one main gate, so that the paying audience can get in, and a few other gates that are typically locked to allow for them to bring mowers and other equipment in.

I don't know about this particular stadium, of course... Actually, thanks to the wonders of Google.... Here's a link (I hope) that shows the field; or if this works, this should be a nice aerial picture showing the field from Bing.  My guess is that the main gate is at the northwest corner, alongside a baseball field.

They're not designed like a major arena, with tons of exits.  They're playing fields with some seating...


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Most HS stadiums in my experience only really have one or two entrances. The central field (big enough for football, soccer & now lacrosse) is usually surrounded by a track used for the various races in track & field events. There's typically one main gate, so that the paying audience can get in, and a few other gates that are typically locked to allow for them to bring mowers and other equipment in.
> 
> I don't know about this particular stadium, of course... Actually, thanks to the wonders of Google.... Here's a link (I hope) that shows the field; or if this works, this should be a nice aerial picture showing the field from Bing. My guess is that the main gate is at the northwest corner, alongside a baseball field.
> 
> ...


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## ballen0351 (Oct 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> ballen0351 said:
> 
> 
> > Read but didn't understand and thought it was a pissing contest over who's police had the tougher time so tried to make out that we do little and know less as shown by your sarcasm.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > I wasnt comparing my job to yours you made several comments about my lack of training and understanding and how if i had better training i could never use OC again. I was explaining to you the type of people I deal with and how using my verbal judo skills dont work on them. Thses types of people only respect Power and if you show weakness they will eat you alive.
> ...


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## ballen0351 (Oct 30, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> ballen0351 said:
> 
> 
> > 6000, a very small town? To you maybe, here we have two cities with smaller populations. 6000 is a large population by our standards. I'm getting mixed messages here from different posters, that high school football is a pressured place with much riding on students doing well, that admission is charged to watch these games and now you are saying this is a very small thing. By your standards perhaps.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2011)

ballen0351 said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Again it comes down to where you are in the country. Some places in the US high school football is king they have huge stadiums ect. MOST places however are not like this. Like I said where I live now my kids highschool does not even have a football team and has no stadium. Most schools around here dont charge admission or if they do its usually a 1 or 2 dollars for ticket and thats used as a fundraiser for the program since most schools dont pay for high school sports any more due to budget cuts. Roosevelt looks to fall into this catagory. Check there website out it def looks like a small town to me http://rooseveltcity.com/. I live in a small town and we have still have 12000 people here.
> ...


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