# Necessary force



## Fight with attitude (Jul 18, 2005)

I'm a bouncer at a bar, I'm pretty new to the job, I've been there for about 3 months but not new to Martial Arts. I've been training in MMA for the last two years.

 This is a question to all police officers or bouncer's, how do you define necessary force? When a fight does break out I'm never sure how far to go. I'll try and put the guy in a head lock or a front face lock. Sometimes I'll get the urge to punch the guy in the face because I'm worried his friend will try and hurt me, if I'm wrestling the guy my hands would be tied up where as punching would work better with more people. I know I should use the least amount of force necessary. How many times do you bouncers and cops strike a person?


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## redfang (Jul 18, 2005)

I'm just finishing my academy and won't be on the street until next month, but here's what I've learned. In the states, a LEO in affecting an arrest can use the amount of force they reasonably believe is necessary to take the person into custody, but no more. Now, what's reasonable? Is it reasonable to spray or taze someone who says, I'm not going to jail today, **** you pig. Probably. If I've taken home one thing, it's that police don't have to fight fair. Just because someone wants to throw down, doesn't mean I have to get into a fist fight or wrestling match. This means a lot of non-lethal tools are open to me, that unfortunately aren't probably open to you. Ultimately, your goal is probably similar. You want the people you encounter to comply with you and to leave the bar. Using joint locks and pain compliance might be more effective than headlocks and less likely to get you sued or charged than punching them in the face. If you must strike, try to do it somewhere else. Knock the wind out of them and rush them out of the club. Check your local laws though and see what kind of latitude bouncers have in their use of force. Your goal at night is the same as LEOs, to go home. To that end, you shouldn't fight fair either. Hit em quick and be done with them before they know what happened.


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## Tgace (Jul 18, 2005)

Read this entire thread....

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7545&highlight=bouncer

But this about sums up my view...

http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub_security_3.htm



> USE OF FORCE
> 
> Because of my work as a consultant, I am aware of incidents where bouncers have broken bones of ejected customers. I have heard many stories about fights where the bouncers have pummeled a customer for refusing to leave the premises. There have been cases where intoxicated customers have been killed after being taken into custody by bouncers by either asphyxiation or by use of deadly force. This is not supposed to happen.
> 
> ...



When it comes to "stopping fights".. as another poster stated, you can use only that ammount of force necessary. You dont "stop a fight" by getting into one yourself. The first step should always be a verbal warning.. "STOP! The police have been called! Leave or you will be charged with trespass!" That way everybody sees and hears that you tried the "non physical" way. The next step should be to try and separate/restrain the combatants. Now if you grab a guy and tell him to leave and he takes a poke at you, you have the right to defend yourself. If in any way possible you can let the police handle the situation however, do so.


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## Tgace (Jul 18, 2005)

If the fight is outside...call 911. Dont get involved unless someone is going to be killed or seriously injured.


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## BlackCatBonz (Jul 18, 2005)

i was a bouncer for 5 years in ontario. the best way to work bouncing in a club is in teams, that way the possibility for one person to be tied up and put into a situation is minimized. the worst kind of person to deal with is the passive aggressive type that you want to leave but wont fight back, they will make it very difficult for you to take them outside. 
NEVER get involved with anything outside the premises.
remember that you have to look out for you and your team. if drunk people with lowered inhibitions and violent tendencies get a bouncer down, most will not hesitate to kick your teeth in, smash a bottle over your head, pull a knife, whatever. grappling is not something you want to do.......i know a lot of people say training in wrists grabs, lapel grabs, etc is something that should be forgotten, but, i was grabbed by my wrists, hands, shirt and hair on numerous occasions, often while trying to take someones drink away from them. understanding locks and controls, with applied pain compliance is one of the most important tools in a bouncers arsenal. 
never use your fists unless its a last resort. dont be an A-hole bouncer, because those are the types that guys come back after with a pack of their friends.


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## searcher (Jul 18, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If the fight is outside...call 911. Dont get involved unless someone is going to be killed or seriously injured.


This is a very ggod point right here.   Remeber that your job as a bouncer is to get them out of the business that you a working for, then let the cops deal with it.   Taking what was also mentioned by Tgace and by redfang, if someone is going to get killed make sure you are not the one.   You can help nobody by getting shot or stabbed.   

I would suggest that you get some training on joint manipulation and build from there.   


Before you strike ask yourself this little question,"is it going to be me or them"?   This will help you when the time comes.


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## MJS (Jul 18, 2005)

Fight with attitude said:
			
		

> I'm a bouncer at a bar, I'm pretty new to the job, I've been there for about 3 months but not new to Martial Arts. I've been training in MMA for the last two years.
> 
> This is a question to all police officers or bouncer's, how do you define necessary force? When a fight does break out I'm never sure how far to go. I'll try and put the guy in a head lock or a front face lock. Sometimes I'll get the urge to punch the guy in the face because I'm worried his friend will try and hurt me, if I'm wrestling the guy my hands would be tied up where as punching would work better with more people. I know I should use the least amount of force necessary. How many times do you bouncers and cops strike a person?



I'm neither a bouncer or LEO but I'll throw in my .02 anyway.  I agree with Tgace, as he brought up some excellent points.  I would think that the establishment would have a policy for all staff to follow.  The last thing you want to do is engage in a fight with the patrons.  I certianly would not try to be the 'hero of the day' when a fight breaks out.  Call the Police!  I would also suggest going to route of controlling methods rather than trading blows.

Mike


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## Tgace (Jul 19, 2005)

A bouncer has no more "right" to lay his hands on you than any other person. They are not LE. If a patron needs to be removed from a bar and refuses to leave, call the police and charge them with trespass. If you need to arrest (citizens) them or defend yourself then you have has much "authority" as any other person to do so. I have seen many bouncers locked up because they believe they have the "right" to bust somebody up because the bar is "their turf". Dont fall into that trap. If you can "soft hand" somebody out of the place (or sweet talk them) fine. If they give you a hard time call the police. If you "have to" act minimize the use of force to what is "necessary" only.



This guy is dead on.
http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub_security_3.htm


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## KenpoTex (Jul 19, 2005)

I agree with they author of the article with one exception:





> Theres a common misconception that bouncers have authority to pick someone up and physically remove him or her from the premises for violating a rule. It is believed that bouncers can use pain compliance holds and full-nelsons, chokeholds, wristlocks, and arm bars to manhandle their patrons. This is not true. *Simply stated bouncers cannot legally use force unless they are taking someone into custody or in self-defense.* When force is used it must be reasonable. That means no tackling, no punching, no kicking, no choking, no head butts, no piling on top, and no pain compliance holds.
> 
> The authority of a bouncer or any other security person is the same as any ordinary citizen. *Bouncers have no special authority to physically eject a customer who merely becomes intoxicated or verbally obnoxious. As an employee of the nightclub, bouncers can only demand that the undesirable customer leave. If the customer refuses to leave your only legal recourse is to call the police.*


 Trespass law probably varies some from state to state.  This is from the MO Statutes :





> 569.140. 1. *A person commits the crime of trespass in the first degree * if he knowingly enters unlawfully *or knowingly remains unlawfully in a building or inhabitable structure or upon real property. *
> 2. A person does not commit the crime of trespass in the first degree by entering or remaining upon real property unless the real property is fenced or otherwise enclosed in a manner designed to exclude intruders *or as to which notice against trespass is given by:
> 
> (1) Actual communication to the actor*


The way I read this is that if, as someone authorized to speak for the "business," you order them to leave and they refuse to do so, they're Trespassing.
Also from the MO Statutes :





> 563.036. 1. A person in possession or control of premises or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, *may...use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of the crime of trespass by the other person*.


Sounds to me like they _are_ allowed to throw them out.

Obviously, it's better if the use of any physical force can be avoided.  However, that doesn't necessarily mean you _can't_ use force if you have to.


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## Adept (Jul 19, 2005)

As kenpotex pointed out, legally the bouncer is allowed to physically eject the person so long as the person is committing an offence. I recently sat through the courses for crowd controller licensing, so this is all right in the front of my mind right now. In Australia, _anyone_ can use *reasonable and proportionate force* against someone for any of the following reasons:

 1 - To prevent the comission, completion or continuance of a criminal offence

 2 - To ensure the appearance of someone at court

 3 - To preserve public order

 4 - To preserve the safety of yourself, a bystander, or the person commiting the offence

 The key is *reasonable and proportionate force*


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> A bouncer has no more "right" to lay his hands on you than any other person. They are not LE. If a patron needs to be removed from a bar and refuses to leave, call the police and charge them with trespass. If you need to arrest (citizens) them or defend yourself then you have has much "authority" as any other person to do so. I have seen many bouncers locked up because they believe they have the "right" to bust somebody up because the bar is "their turf". Dont fall into that trap. If you can "soft hand" somebody out of the place (or sweet talk them) fine. If they give you a hard time call the police. If you "have to" act minimize the use of force to what is "necessary" only.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually, in Missouri, Tgace, they do have the right. 


*[size=+1]Use of physical force in defense of premises. [/size]*


563.036. 1. A person in possession or control of premises or a person who is licensed or privileged to be thereon, may, subject to the provisions of subsection 2 of this section, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent or terminate what he reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission of the crime of trespass by the other person. 

2. A person may use deadly force under circumstances described in subsection 1 of this section only: 

(1) When such use of deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter; or 

(2) When he reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he reasonably believes to be an attempt by the trespasser to commit arson or burglary upon his dwelling; or 

(3) When entry into the premises is made or attempted in a violent and tumultuous manner, surreptitiously, or by stealth, and he reasonably believes that the entry is attempted or made for the purpose of assaulting or offering physical violence to any person or being in the premises and he reasonably believes that force is necessary to prevent the commission of a felony. 3. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section. " 


In Missouri, the crime of trespass begins when you are asked to leave by the owner or a lawful representative. After that, they can boot you out the front door using "physical force". Ain't Missouri great?

Also notice the section that allows Missourians to shoot burglars on sight.

(note:I just realized Kenpotex beat me to the Missouri statute...Props Kenpo)


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## Tgace (Jul 19, 2005)

Props to MO. I dont think that the author was stating that force could never be used for a trespass "crime", but that force can only be used by a citizen when he is taking a person into custody or in self defense. In NY you may use force to prevent or terminate the offense of "criminal trespass" which is different from "Simple trespass" in that the property has to be a school, dwelling or fenced to exclude unauthorized persons (security guard in a warehouse facillity for example). Criminal trespass is a crime and by law civilians have the power to make a citizens arrest for crimes in NY. Simple trespass is a violation and not a crime. Same with disorderly conduct. However, as non LEO's have no protection from lawsuits when they make citizens arrests, I would highly recommend that they only make them in emergency situations (in NY at least).

I note in the MO statute that you have a Tespass 2nd which is similar to our violation trespass. The difference you guys have is that you have included buildings open to the public in the criminal statute.

Most bouncers here run into trouble when they "thump" somebody just to toss them out onto the street. Which is like say, beating a shoplifter and throwing them out of the store but not calling the police or pressing charges. A dangerous way to do busniess from both a safety and lawsuit angle. My point here is, say you have a customer that is smoking in a non-smoking establishment or making rude comments to other patrons. The proper way to handle it is to ask him to stop. Then ask him to leave. Then tell him to leave or the police will be called and he will be arrested for trespass. The wrong way to handle it when he tells you to **** off! Is to throw him into a choke hold/wrist lock and drag him to the door. Even in MO I would say that would be the best way to handle the situation.


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## TonyM. (Jul 19, 2005)

I work in the hospitality business. When customers are missbehaving, harrassing other patrons, trying to serve minors with them ect. I simply get the staff together as a group and we remove any food and beverage the former patrons have on their table and in their hands and walk away without saying a word. If they have the audacity to question this the standard response is "You are now trespassing and I am calling the police." Any more hot air and the response is "Drive on ranger."


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## Martial Tucker (Jul 19, 2005)

I think the responses so far identify 2 separate issues you must explore:
   Legal, and tactical

 From a legal standpoint, since you are in Winnepeg, Canada, the laws are likely to differ from what each of us who have responded thus far are familiar with. The first thing you should do is contact the local police and explain your situation and ask them what actions by you they would expect and condone (or not) in various situations. Then I would check with a local attorney about 
 what the law actually is, in case you end up in court. He or she will likely have access to previous cases and how they were resolved, and this could help you in formulating a "working strategy". Not knowing the law in Canada, I would also make sure you are covered by some type of liability insurance provided by your employer. 

 From a tactical standpoint, since I don't know if you work in a nice club, or a rowdy cowboy bar, my advice may not be optimal. I was a bouncer for about 3 years in a fairly wild bar in Missouri, about 25 years ago. My experience was that punching/kicking was very rarely the best response.
 If a customer refused to leave, but was not physically violent, I would just walk away and call the police. I would only use force if the customer initiated violence first. I think the best response is some type of takedown or restraint where the offender can be subsequently controlled. If you punch or kick an offender, you run the risk of him inadvertently falling into an innocent bystander, which may get more people involved in the conflict, and you also give him the chance to get back up and perhaps use a weapon. Your teacher should be able to show you some simple, but effective takedowns and/or "come-a-longs" that enable you to get a troublemaker on the ground quickly and then control him with one hand and perhaps one foot, leaving you a hand and foot free to defend against others. If your place of employment is really rowdy, I would talk to your employer and other employees about formulating a "backup strategy" for whomever is the bouncer, be it a partner, or some method of signalling other employees for assistance if/when necessary.


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## Dan G (Jul 19, 2005)

In the UK we can use reasonable force to remove a trespasser. Seems broadly similar to the US in general principles, which makes sense since a lot of our early law is shared, and we are both common law jurisdictions. The fundamental laws of trespass to both land and person largely predate US independence, so  I would expect there to be a lot of basic similarity still.

I don't know much about US law, but IMHO TGace seems pretty much spot on in his advice; allowing for some regional variation his advice would still be pretty good in the UK. Practical advice from a local LEO is definitely worth listening to.

Bottom line is you must know your relevant local law inside out. On top of that you need to know how the law is actually applied and interpreted locally by the courts. E.G in the UK headbutting is especially frowned upon, and it will definitely not help a bouncer argue reasonable force if they headbutt a patron.

The other very important aspect is to understand the rules of evidence. The law on an issue is one aspect, but understanding what can and cannot be admitted as evidence is usually just as important to a case. Most people tend to overlook evidence when they read up on law, but without evidence there can be no conviction.

Respectfully,

Dan


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## Bammx2 (Jul 19, 2005)

I would also like to add that here in the UK,we have to have a 36 hour course before you can even get near a door.
  You actually have to licensed to be a bouncer here.
 Since I did about 15 years in event and entertainment security,bouncing included, back in the states the main advice I can is this:

  1) make friends with the local cops.
 They will let you know what you can do legally and what to expect and do when things go wrong.
  2) Never,EVER, approach a situation by yourself! EVER! I can't stress that enough.
 No less than 2 of you and if you can help it, maybe a little more if it can be done,but don't approach in a mob.It doesn't look good.Whoever is leading,let him do the talking and watch his back.
  3) to remove someone,in order:
    a) "Talk" them out. If that fails,call the police.
    b) "Walk" them out. If that fails,call the police....LOUDER! 
 If it gets to hairy;
    c) "Take" them out. And wait for the police.

  4) Always remember,ALWAYS.....nothing and God knows I mean NOTHING in ANY establishment is worth you getting beat down,maimed or even killed for! Pick your battles wisely.

  And if an all out "bar fight" breaks out...call the police immediately,have a seat and wait to  clean up.It ain't hollywood.
  I have had 2 friends killed on the door and a few more end up in the hospital.
   Be damn careful and as observent as possible.
 If your boss doesn't like it....there are other places to work!


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## Dan G (Jul 19, 2005)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> I would also like to add that here in the UK,we have to have a 36 hour course before you can even get near a door.
> You actually have to licensed to be a bouncer here.
> Since I did about 15 years in event and entertainment security,bouncing included, back in the states the main advice I can is this:
> 
> ...


I 100% agree! 15 years on the door is life experience I take very seriously! Sat in on some SIA training for trainers stuff, and gained an awesome respect for the door supervisor profession. Takes serious stones to do it in the first place, and some of the experienced doormen on the course were phenomenal psychologists (and handy too). Frankly some of the nicest and most street smart people I have ever met. Total and utter respect! 

Dan


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## GuruJim1 (Jul 19, 2005)

GuruJim1 is 10-8,

I just seen the post. I have been away for a little while teaching at my Police Academy. As far as what is necessary force is a hard thing to teach. I can only teach you teachniques to a limited number of scenarios, and not to every one. 

*The best thing is to use the force continuum.*

Step # 1 (Officer Presence / Verbal Persuasion) 

"Sir, please leave now or be arrested, or Call the cops".
Verbal Judo is good for this. http://www.verbaljudo.org/verbaljudobusinesscourse.html

Step # 2 (Soft empty hand Techniques)

Pressure Point Control tactics / Come-Along Techniques/ Pain Conpliance / OC Spray / or Tazer

When using these teachniques continue to verbalize, "Sir or Madam, Stop your resisting! Yell it out loud to let everyone see your doing your best to end this encourter with less force as possible. They will see them fighting and not you. The by stander will say, The Police or Security said stop fighting, but they kept on fighting.

Step # 3 ( Hard Empty Hand Techniques)

Active Countermeasures / Closed or Open Stirkes / And Takedowns

Punch to the gut / breakel nerve at the sholder or open knife hand to the side of the neck / front kick to the gut / round kick to the thigh / Knee to the gut or side of thigh (common promial). 

Step # 4 (Impact Weapons / Less-Lethal Impacted Projectiles)

Baton strikes and Bean Bag Shotgun

Step # 5 (Lethal Force)

*Now what type of resistance will you have?*

At Step # 1: Verbal Non-Compliance, and Psychological Resistance

At Step # 2: Compliance Action
A. Defensive Resistance
1. Pulling away
2. Moving away
B. Passive Resistance
1. Gripping Objects
2. Linking Arms (Do not generally use chemical agents to counter)

At Steps # 3 & 4: Controlling Actions
A. Phyiscal Assult
B. Non-Deadly Weapons

At Step # 5: Lethal Force Action
A. Aggravated Action Aggression
1. Use deadly force to resist

*Targets to Strike:*

*Green Areas*: Extremities front and back minus the Joints
*Yellow Areas*: Joints of the extremities, and Abdomen
*Red Areas*: Face, Head, Neck, Spine, Chest and Sternum Coccyx, Kidneys, and groin

The green areas hit all day long until the bad guy does what you say. Anything further would be excessive force. Yellow you may hit but only after the green areas fail or their level of force is higher (like swinging on you). Red only if they have the Opportunity to kill you, placed you in jeopardy of your life, and they have the ability to take your life.

*How to know when to use the continuum*.

If they are a starting to get out of hand you many use Step #1. If they ignore you then go to Step # 2 because they are at Resistance Step # 1. If they pull away from you (they are at Resistance Step # 2) you may use Step # 2 to over come the resistance. If they swing on you then go to Step # 3 or 4 because they are at Resistance Step 3 & 4, and if they pull a weapon like a club, pool stick, knife, or gun go to Step # 5

NOW, if they are starting to get out of hand and you try step one, and they atart to pull a Knife or a gun go to Step # 5. 

I hoped this help you out to know what is Necessary force.


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## 47MartialMan (Jul 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Props to MO. I dont think that the author was stating that force could never be used for a trespass "crime", but that force can only be used by a citizen when he is taking a person into custody or in self defense. In NY you may use force to prevent or terminate the offense of "criminal trespass" which is different from "Simple trespass" in that the property has to be a school, dwelling or fenced to exclude unauthorized persons (security guard in a warehouse facillity for example). Criminal trespass is a crime and by law civilians have the power to make a citizens arrest for crimes in NY. Simple trespass is a violation and not a crime. Same with disorderly conduct. However, as non LEO's have no protection from lawsuits when they make citizens arrests, I would highly recommend that they only make them in emergency situations (in NY at least).
> 
> I note in the MO statute that you have a Tespass 2nd which is similar to our violation trespass. The difference you guys have is that you have included buildings open to the public in the criminal statute.
> 
> Most bouncers here run into trouble when they "thump" somebody just to toss them out onto the street. Which is like say, beating a shoplifter and throwing them out of the store but not calling the police or pressing charges. A dangerous way to do busniess from both a safety and lawsuit angle. My point here is, say you have a customer that is smoking in a non-smoking establishment or making rude comments to other patrons. The proper way to handle it is to ask him to stop. Then ask him to leave. Then tell him to leave or the police will be called and he will be arrested for trespass. The wrong way to handle it when he tells you to **** off! Is to throw him into a choke hold/wrist lock and drag him to the door. Even in MO I would say that would be the best way to handle the situation.


Nicely pointed and nice references. I too, was a doorman/bouncer in the City of New Orleans-Louisiana-USA, on famous Bourbon Street. It isnt about being able to beat someone or use physical means. It is about knowing what to do and what not to do. It requires understanding of law, business, and civil activities. Becoming a manager of two bars (different employment intervals), I had convinced the owners to hire LEO for detail. Uniformed LEOs were the best deterant and/or presence to difuse or keep situations from happening. Not to mention they had their own "holding area" (unit-car). Most bar owners in New Orleans use LEOs or LEOs are nearby to summon. I no longer work or live near New Orleans, which I find decadent and iniquitous.


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## Spookey (Jul 19, 2005)

Dear All,


As previously stated, go to any extent to have a good working basis with the LEO in your area.

In Montgomery, AL neither the county Sheriff's Dept or the city Police Dept. are permited to conduct any form of security detail in the private sector. However, if you can befriend the LEO's working your district they will become familiar with the times in which "conflict" commonly occur. Often we will have an officer use our parking area to "fill out paper work" and so on thus giving us a police presence and quick reaction times when circumstances arise!

Stay Safe,
SpooKeY

(Bouncers and Security Contractors, remember that you are not LEO and that you are only legally capable of defensive actions <including defense of the third party>...read up on local laws and ask your employer to provide training from a professional consultant or lawyer specializing in such matters)


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## arnisador (Jul 20, 2005)

Is it still the case in Texas that if someone tries to enter your home you're legally authorized to torture him on the rack? They used to be very forgiving about defending one's own home.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 20, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Is it still the case in Texas that if someone tries to enter your home you're legally authorized to torture him on the rack? They used to be very forgiving about defending one's own home.


They don't use the rack...they just put a rope aound their ankles and drag 'em though a mesquite & cactus thicket.


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## Fight with attitude (Jul 20, 2005)

Thanks for everyone replying on this thread and thank you Tgace for posting those links, there were very helpful 

 I'll be going either to the public safey building or a police office within the next few days to find information on the laws of winnipeg.


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## Tgace (Jul 20, 2005)

Excellent idea.


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## Tgace (Jul 21, 2005)

Another good link about nightclub security....

http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub1.htm


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 22, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> They don't use the rack...they just put a rope aound their ankles and drag 'em though a mesquite & cactus thicket.


 Yippie-tie-yo.  Cuts down on recidivism.


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