# Weapon of Choice...Knife?



## 7starmantis

This is sort of an extension of a discussion allready going on, but I thought it was getting off topic there (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=188651#post188651 ) So I started this one.

I am curious, and I'm not trying to pick on anyone or "disrespect" anyone or anyones training. I'm curious as to why a person goes from average fighter, to unbeatable when holding a knife?

Not to pick on anyone, but Paul seems to have strong feelings about this and I read some of your other posts where you said, 



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now, lets say you F-ed up royally, and you are empty hand Vs. an knife Armed attacker. You must take on the attitude that you are already dead. Your not worried about getting cut, and your not scared of anything. You are a walking dead person. Kiss your @$$ goodbye, get ready to meet your maker, then go for broke.
> *



Please don't get upset, or take me a being rude, I'm seriously curious about this. What is it about a knife that makes the person so unbeatable? We have all dodged punches before, why is dodging a knife attack any different? Is it because of the impending danger of injury or death? That shouldn't change the fact of the matter.

I'm afriad I'm making you mad Paul, so please don't take this wrong, I'm really wanting to pick your brain and hear what you have to say about it.

7sm


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## Ender

I prefer a light saber.....


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## arnisador

A few relevant posts/threads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=4155#post4155
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=879
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2552


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *A few relevant posts/threads:
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=4155#post4155
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=879
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2552 *



Those are very interesting threads, and all stacked against me!  

I don't see why FMA or any art for that matter would bother with even addressing empty hand Vs Knife if it is truly so impossible to defend against. The knife can only do what the attacker is capable of doing. The knife holds no power on its own, if the attacker can only move a certain speed, so thus the knife be confined to that speed. 
By no means am I claiming to be able to de-knife anyone or claiming to want to fight a knifed assailent, but I am saying I train in defending against a knife, and in using a knife, and I prefer the empty hand. I * do not * believe it is impossible to defend against a knife as I've seen it done and had to do it myslef. The thing is, most assailents using a knife are not masters of the martial arts trying to attack you.

7sm


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## Rich Parsons

7StarMantis,

I train empty hand versus knife.

I also think you can defend against the knife empty handed. You skill level must be significantly above that of the person with the knife and your timing must be superb and right on.


The Knife is not the perfect weapon, it just has some immediately deadly attributes.

:asian:


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *7StarMantis,
> 
> I train empty hand versus knife.
> 
> I also think you can defend against the knife empty handed. You skill level must be significantly above that of the person with the knife and your timing must be superb and right on.
> 
> 
> The Knife is not the perfect weapon, it just has some immediately deadly attributes.
> 
> :asian: *



I agree, your skill level must be well above the attacker, and even then your most likely going to get cut, maybe even several times. I understand that the knife guys here are reading what I'm writing and feeling as if they need to defend and maybe educate me on the knife. If I was going to choose a weapon to use, my very first choice would be a knife, I like the knife and I am trained at using it. I don't want anyone to think I am belittling it or its usefullness/danger. One of my favorite weapons we train in is the double daggers, I love the straight forwardness of the knife. 
Me personally, I do not believe a knife makes a person unbeatable. 

I personally would rather fight empty hand because I feel confident in my abilities. Just as some of you guys would prefer a knife, I prefer no weapon. I can say your being just as cocky and conceded as I am because you think you can beat anyone with a knife, but I understand that you guys are trained as well, and are confident in your abilities. 

My only issue is that it is a little unrealistic to say that no one can defend against a knife. That no one, of any skill level can stand a chance in hell if against an attacker with a knife. Thats an unrealistic outlook, as unrealistic as if I were to say that no one with a knife could beat me unarmed. That would be an unrealistic statement as well.

7sm


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## lhommedieu

Actually I prefer a Remington 700 at 500 yards...
Or a cruise missile at 500 miles...

Or...well you get the point.

Given a choice between armed and unarmed, I'd rather go armed - see #2, below.

I've been following this conversation on both threads and have made a couple of comments myself.  It's not surprising that some FMA's might be...puzzled...by 7sm's choice of weapons when facing a knife.  After all, many have chosen to study FMA's precisely because having a weapon seems to greatly multiply your chances of survival when faced with a similar weapon.  That's the theory anyway (and the one to which I subscribe).

Two points, however, that merely state _my opinion_:

1.  "Greatly multiply your chances of survival" means that you've elevated your chances to 50-50 (or less).  This is how I argued on another forum (to the question "How do you rate your chances unarmed against two people with knives?"):



> "Slim to none" sounds about right.
> 
> Look at it this way:
> 
> 1. One-to-one (both armed).  If YOU are armed and HE is armed, and if you both have intent (i.e., neither will back down until the other can't move), then your odds are about 50-50 for and against survival.  Why am I so pessimistic?  Because you cannot count on your training to make up for accidents.  Why train at all then?  Because, barring accidents, your training may make that slight difference that makes all the difference.
> 
> 2.  One-to-one (one unarmed, one armed)  If YOU are unarmed and HE is armed, and if you both have intent (i.e., neither will back down until the other can't move), then your odds just slipped way below the 50-50 mark.  You can choose any number you want, but you can't tell me they come close to 50%.  Let's split the difference and call it a 25% chance of survival.  Your
> superior training may make the difference, but it's a steep climb from 25%.
> 
> 3.  Two-to-one (two armed, one unarmed).  If YOU are unarmed and THEY are armed, and if you all have intent (i.e., they won't back down until you can't move, and so on...), then your odds just slipped way below the 25-75 mark.  You can choose any number you want, but you can't tell me they come close to 25%.  You cant even split the difference because the odds don't decrease geometrically - they decrease exponentially.  That's why "slim to none" sounds about right.
> 
> I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't train empty-hand against knife or whatever - but, rather than fill our students' heads with dangerous fantasies, why not acquaint them with some realistic information?  That way, they'll learn to avoid getting into not just dangerous, but close to impossible, situations.



O.K. - that's just my opinion.  I am arguing that if I start from the position that my chances are 50-50 (or less) knife against knife, then I'm logically compelled to be pessimistic about my chances _unarmed_  against knife.  I'll understand if there are some individuals for whom my point of view doesn't make sense - that's what keeps the conversation going.

2. Optimistic talk about how you'd do unarmed against knife is exactly the same as optimistic talk about how you'd do knife against knife.  I'm a pessimist, so both kinds of talk don't make sense to me.  I guess it's fair to say that, bottom line, I want to _survive_ such an encounter on the basis of the very slim margin of luck that my training has provided.  In the back of my mind is always the saying _"wanting is not having."_  I wonder how many have considered that it's not confidence that might make the difference between surviving or not - but fear.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *if the attacker can only move a certain speed, so thus the knife be confined to that speed.  *



No, the weapon speed can significantly exceed the hand speed.

Imagaine an extreme case--the whip. The tip can break the sound barrier, but the hand wielding it surely cannot.

Imagaine swinging a 6.5' staff around your body. Let's say, for convenience, that your arm is 3' from the center axis of your body and you hold the staff so that it extends 6' beyond your arm. Swing the staff around your body in a perfect circle, parallel to the floor, for one revolution. Your hand moves a distance of 2*pi*r1 or roughly 18 feet (taking pi=3', as the Indiana state legislature once tried to make law)--the circumference of the circle.

But the tip of the staff moves a distance of 2*pi*r2 or roughly 54 feet (r2=3' for your arm plus 6' for the staff), _in the same period of time_. Now speed is distance travelled over time, so if this takes, say, 1 second, then the tip of the staff is moving 54/18=3 times as fast as your hand.

As a rule of thumb, the weapon moves up to ten times faster than the hand. Repeat this mental experiment with a 6" knife blade held in your hand, pointing up. Flick it down by rotating your wrist forward through a right angle. The top of your fist moves perhaps 2". How fast is the tip of the knife moving?

This is very simplified, but should give an indication of why the weapon speed is greater than the hand speed. Now add in that a relatively light touch with the very tip of the knife will cut, whereas a hand needs to land a heavy blow, and you begin to get a very deadly weapon!


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I agree, your skill level must be well above the attacker, and even then your most likely going to get cut, maybe even several times. I understand that the knife guys here are reading what I'm writing and feeling as if they need to defend and maybe educate me on the knife. If I was going to choose a weapon to use, my very first choice would be a knife, I like the knife and I am trained at using it. I don't want anyone to think I am belittling it or its usefullness/danger. One of my favorite weapons we train in is the double daggers, I love the straight forwardness of the knife.
> Me personally, I do not believe a knife makes a person unbeatable.
> 
> I personally would rather fight empty hand because I feel confident in my abilities. Just as some of you guys would prefer a knife, I prefer no weapon. I can say your being just as cocky and conceded as I am because you think you can beat anyone with a knife, but I understand that you guys are trained as well, and are confident in your abilities.
> 
> My only issue is that it is a little unrealistic to say that no one can defend against a knife. That no one, of any skill level can stand a chance in hell if against an attacker with a knife. Thats an unrealistic outlook, as unrealistic as if I were to say that no one with a knife could beat me unarmed. That would be an unrealistic statement as well.
> 
> 7sm *



7SM,

It sounds like you and I are at least in the same chapter, if not on the same page. Yes, skill does make a big difference. I think what the problem was is how you asked your orignal questions. No Big deal.

More Later with Steve Lemade


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Actually I prefer a Remington 700 at 500 yards...
> Or a cruise missile at 500 miles...
> 
> Or...well you get the point.
> 
> Given a choice between armed and unarmed, I'd rather go armed - see #2, below.
> 
> I've been following this conversation on both threads and have made a couple of comments myself.  It's not surprising that some FMA's might be...puzzled...by 7sm's choice of weapons when facing a knife.  After all, many have chosen to study FMA's precisely because having a weapon seems to greatly multiply your chances of survival when faced with a similar weapon.  That's the theory anyway (and the one to which I subscribe).
> 
> Two points, however, that merely state my opinion:
> 
> 1.  "Greatly multiply your chances of survival" means that you've elevated your chances to 50-50 (or less).  This is how I argued on another forum (to the question "How do you rate your chances unarmed against two people with knives?"):
> 
> 
> 
> O.K. - that's just my opinion.  I am arguing that if I start from the position that my chances are 50-50 (or less) knife against knife, then I'm logically compelled to be pessimistic about my chances unarmed  against knife.  I'll understand if there are some individuals for whom my point of view doesn't make sense - that's what keeps the conversation going.
> 
> 2. Optimistic talk about how you'd do unarmed against knife is exactly the same as optimistic talk about how you'd do knife against knife.  I'm a pessimist, so both kinds of talk don't make sense to me.  I guess it's fair to say that, bottom line, I want to survive such an encounter on the basis of the very slim margin of luck that my training has provided.  In the back of my mind is always the saying "wanting is not having."  I wonder how many have considered that it's not confidence that might make the difference between surviving or not - but fear.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Steve Lamade *



Steve,

I like you analogy. 50/50 down to less than 25%. I also like your comments about skill not be enough and fear being a motivator. I also like how your presented mistakes and that you may not be able to recover from them. All good points in my mind.

Waiting for more discussion from everyone.
:asian:


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Look at it this way:
> 
> 1. One-to-one (both armed). If YOU are armed and HE is armed, and if you both have intent (i.e., neither will back down until the other can't move), then your odds are about 50-50 for and against survival. Why am I so pessimistic? Because you cannot count on your training to make up for accidents. Why train at all then? Because, barring accidents, your training may make that slight difference that makes all the difference.
> 
> 2. One-to-one (one unarmed, one armed) If YOU are unarmed and HE is armed, and if you both have intent (i.e., neither will back down until the other can't move), then your odds just slipped way below the 50-50 mark. You can choose any number you want, but you can't tell me they come close to 50%. Let's split the difference and call it a 25% chance of survival. Your
> superior training may make the difference, but it's a steep climb from 25%.
> 
> 3. Two-to-one (two armed, one unarmed). If YOU are unarmed and THEY are armed, and if you all have intent (i.e., they won't back down until you can't move, and so on...), then your odds just slipped way below the 25-75 mark. You can choose any number you want, but you can't tell me they come close to 25%. You cant even split the difference because the odds don't decrease geometrically - they decrease exponentially. That's why "slim to none" sounds about right.
> *



Your using statistics to prove an encounter that contains an abundance of variables that render statistics inaccurate. A fight, is in no way limited by statistics. Its not feasable to accept an outcome of an encounter using statistics. 

I don't understand if an attacker is weilding a knife, and I'm unarmed, what is going to raise my chances of survival so much by me taking up a 3" blade? Your telling me that all this speed and dangerous tearing of arteries done by well trained knife fighters is going to go away because I pick up a blade myself? Forgive me, but that is naive. 



> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't train empty-hand against knife or whatever - but, rather than fill our students' heads with dangerous fantasies, why not acquaint them with some realistic information? That way, they'll learn to avoid getting into not just dangerous, but close to impossible, situations. *


No one on this thread is suggesting getting into this type of situation, in fact, I prefer to stay out of any type of physical encounter myself. A dangerous fantasy would be entering into an encounter hoping on statistics to save you. A dangerous fantasy would be to believe that because you pull a blade you are invincible. Training empty habd vs knife is a realistic situation to train against, because it can happen to you. Training realistically against it, knowing your going to get cut, possibly even seriously, is realistic. I know the realism of getting cut, but that doesn't change that think a skilled fighter can effectivly defend themselves against an edged weapon. I've seen it done, I've had to do it myself, it *is* possible, and very worth training for.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *No, the weapon speed can significantly exceed the hand speed.
> 
> Imagaine an extreme case--the whip. The tip can break the sound barrier, but the hand wielding it surely cannot.
> 
> Imagaine swinging a 6.5' staff around your body. Let's say, for convenience, that your arm is 3' from the center axis of your body and you hold the staff so that it extends 6' beyond your arm. Swing the staff around your body in a perfect circle, parallel to the floor, for one revolution. Your hand moves a distance of 2*pi*r1 or roughly 18 feet (taking pi=3', as the Indiana state legislature once tried to make law)--the circumference of the circle.
> 
> But the tip of the staff moves a distance of 2*pi*r2 or roughly 54 feet (r2=3' for your arm plus 6' for the staff), in the same period of time. Now speed is distance travelled over time, so if this takes, say, 1 second, then the tip of the staff is moving 54/18=3 times as fast as your hand.
> 
> As a rule of thumb, the weapon moves up to ten times faster than the hand. Repeat this mental experiment with a 6" knife blade held in your hand, pointing up. Flick it down by rotating your wrist forward through a right angle. The top of your fist moves perhaps 2". How fast is the tip of the knife moving?
> 
> This is very simplified, but should give an indication of why the weapon speed is greater than the hand speed. Now add in that a relatively light touch with the very tip of the knife will cut, whereas a hand needs to land a heavy blow, and you begin to get a very deadly weapon! *



I see your point, and its a good one, but what I'm trying to say is it is not "superhuman" speed. a 3' blade will not extend far enough to pick up much more speed than your allready moving. some, yes, but not as much as a staff or especially a whip as you mentioned. 

the speed is increased, thus increasing the danger, but it is not the superhuman speed alot of people are claiming it becomes. It is still managable and possible to defend against. A whip I would hate to have to defend against, as would I a knife or any weapon for that matter.

If your close enough for the "wrist flick" to seriously cut you, then you shuld have allready done something, not just been sitting there ready to be cut.

7sm


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## arnisador

It is still possible to defend against, but one shouldn't underestimate the speed advanatge. It's also an effective reach advantage because you need only nick someone with the end of the blade to get a cut, whereas a hand must lay a blow. If the knife gets close enough to touch, it cuts, whereas a hand just grabs. Anytime you could grab, block, etc., your opponent, the knife could cut.

I understand your position that for _you_, you might be better off without a knife. I would feel the same way about some weapons, I imagine--that I would more be encumbered than empowered by a strange weapon.

A dedicated knifer who's out to get you is a scary scenario, as Col. Fairbairn's quote indicates. But luckily, most of us are not attacked by highly skilled adversaries.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It is still possible to defend against, but one shouldn't underestimate the speed advanatge. It's also an effective reach advantage because you need only nick someone with the end of the blade to get a cut, whereas a hand must lay a blow. If the knife gets close enough to touch, it cuts, whereas a hand just grabs. Anytime you could grab, block, etc., your opponent, the knife could cut.
> 
> I understand your position that for you, you might be better off without a knife. I would feel the same way about some weapons, I imagine--that I would more be encumbered than empowered by a strange weapon.
> 
> A dedicated knifer who's out to get you is a scary scenario, as Col. Fairbairn's quote indicates. But luckily, most of us are not attacked by highly skilled adversaries. *



Very true, its a mistake to underestimate any weapon or fighter for that matter. The speed advantage is one to be reconed with, but we fight opponants with speed advantages over us all the time. 
Why do so many train empty hand against a knife if it is so impossible to defend against? In my experience nothing is impossible. Everytime I think something is impossible, I see someone do it. There is an old Chinese saying, "He who says it is impossible should not interupt the one doing it".  

Again I dont understand why it is impossible for me to defend myself empty hand, but the huge advatange the knife holder has dwindles so much when I myslef pick up a blade. The speed advantage we've been talking about, the lethal cuts that happen seemingly instantaneously, even the reach advantage all seem to disapear? I don't understand that mindset.

7sm


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## arnisandyz

I would feel more comforatable with something vs a knife.
And obviously you, 7sm would feel more comfortable emptyhanded vs a knife.

Nobody is really wrong and no one way is better than the other, Self defense is a very personal thing and  you must do what you think is best for yourself to survive the situation.  I think a few people (myself included)  initially didn't like the way you approached the situation,  "I don't see how much damage a boxcutter could do before I've broken a knee or two." And yet you say you have respect for the knife?  If  I said, "When the attacker thrusts at me I'll just cut the outstretched arm with my own knife." The problem with both of these statements is that they are predicated on what the attacker is going to do and what your going to do.  As many people know, knife fights aren't always predictable.  I'm not sure what is going to happen, but would feel better holding something in my hand to help me survive.  Perhaps you would find more people in agreement with your views of unarmed self defense vs a weapon in the more traditional styles? or elswere on this forum.  I think most people who frequent the knife forum are knife people.  In anycase, your views have been very refeshing.  Perhaps someone can start a poll like "Against a knife attack, what do you prefer"?
1. knife
2. stick
3. emptyhand


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## 7starmantis

I can accept that, however I didn't mean for my views or opinions to threaten or "disrespect" anyone or their training.
I still hold the view that if someone comes at me with a boxcutter that has a what 1" blade at best, I would be able to defend myself quite well. 

We have had some good points made here, and I appreciate the tactfulness and friendliness we have been able to sustain while disagreeing. This is good conversation.

You made mention of traditional styles, which I guess would be what I'm classified as. Do you think traditional systems tend to focus on empty hand vs weapon more than others? If so why is that? Is it that it is just an outdated part of traditional training that needs to be cut away and discarded, or is their some credence to that training?

I believe there is credence to training empty hand vs knife, because I don't carry a weapon with me, and refuse to, even when I'm licensed as a concealed handgun carrier. So for me, training empty hand vs weapons, is a must.

7sm


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I can accept that, however I didn't mean for my views or opinions to threaten or "disrespect" anyone or their training.
> 
> You made mention of traditional styles, which I guess would be what I'm classified as. Do you think traditional systems tend to focus on empty hand vs weapon more than others? If so why is that? Is it that it is just an outdated part of traditional training that needs to be cut away and discarded, or is their some credence to that training?
> 
> I believe there is credence to training empty hand vs knife, because I don't carry a weapon with me, and refuse to, even when I'm licensed as a concealed handgun carrier. So for me, training empty hand vs weapons, is a must.
> 
> 7sm *



I am not in anyway a Historian on all Martial Arts, but these are my views.  Most traditional systems I see in my area, TKD, Karate, KungFu focus mainly on empty hand training, mixing in weapon training after a fundamental of empty hand skill has been demonstrated.  Problem is, this is usually in the way of forms and patterns and not actual fighting skills with the weapon and usually are taught for competition.  The styles I have mentioned have already gone though an evolution from a combat form to an art form or way of life.  Many traditional styles do practice empty hand vs weapon situations.  However, they are approaching it from the perspective of an emptyhand persons point of view. The person feeding the knife may or may not have an understaning of the weapon. This could be for serveral reasons, some of which you have claimed,  comfortable with empty hands, not going to be carrying a weapon, liability in todays world, teaching kids, or ignorance.

In its combat state, weapons were taught first for several reasons.  You could take an average person, train them with a weapon and in a short amount of time have them fighting the war.  Much like how todays military trains it infantry on the M-16, with limited training in hand to hand combat. The goal was not to create martial artists, but to teach enough skill to kill quickly, and putting a weapon in someones hand was the most effective.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Most traditional systems I see in my area, TKD, Karate, KungFu focus mainly on empty hand training, mixing in weapon training after a fundamental of empty hand skill has been demonstrated.  Problem is, this is usually in the way of forms and patterns and not actual fighting skills with the weapon and usually are taught for competition.  The styles I have mentioned have already gone though an evolution from a combat form to an art form or way of life.*



There are traditional kung fu systems and very non-traditional as well. The way we train is simply fighting oriented. We focus on applicable techniques and work on the realistic application of ever technique. We do not do competition much, and focus simply of the realism of self-defense.

Its hard to lump all kung uf practitioners into a box like saying Kung Fu is a traditional art that teaches for competition.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Again I dont understand why it is impossible for me to defend myself empty hand, but the huge advatange the knife holder has dwindles so much when I myslef pick up a blade. The speed advantage we've been talking about, the lethal cuts that happen seemingly instantaneously, even the reach advantage all seem to disapear? I don't understand that mindset.
> 
> 7sm *



This is what I'm confused about however. Why if the knife is so dangerous, does it lose a bit of impossibility when faced with another knife?

7sm


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## Cruentus

I haven't had time to read the entire thread, but I promise I will on Monday!  

Sevenstar...I'm not mad at all, even from the other thread. I just have a hard time buying some of what you say, thats all. I just hope your not mad at me for being honest!  

Now...a short sharp weapon, such as a knife, is very dangerous. It takes very little training to become deadly with the weapon. The only thing that can bme more deadly with less training would be a gun. A knife to me is just below a gun. The reason is because a sharp knife, like a box cutter, hunting knife, folder, etc. is designed to cut....and it cuts meat particularly well. Hang up a slab of pork ribs or a beef cut, and take your blade and practice some slices and stabs. Watch how well even the smallest knife slices meat. You will slice meat into bits, cut through bone, etc. This is what it can do to the body, with very little effort. Also, your empty hand sparring with an untrained person isn't the same as a knife person. An untrained person may never "hit" you, but I garuntee thay can touch you if they are determined. All a knife player has to do is touch you and you are cut. Even the smallest cuts on the hands and arms could be severing nerves, cutting arteries and viens, and hindering your ability to fight. Many times, your attacker (especially if they are terrorists who are determined to lose their lives to make a point) may be so out of their minds that they'll take your strikes, a bloody nose, a broken rib, etc., just to close in and cut you repeatedily. When you can't use your limbs as effectively because of cuts and blood loss, your attacker is able to move in and kill you.

A knife fighter doesn't have to be skilled. He doesn't have to be trained well. All he has to do is touch you. And...that's the problem with going against a knife fighter empty handed.

Now....do I teach empty hand vs. knife. Absolutly! However, I don't want my students (or myself) to have an aire of false confidence regarding a bladed weapon. This way they will exhaust every other option available before it gets to that point, not just decide "hey...I train empty hand...to I'll just go in to a knife fight empty handed because thats what I am used too!" If you are going empty hand vs. knife, you have to consider your self a walking dead person. You are giving your life up right then in their; its a last resort where you say "F-it!" and you go for broke using what you know. Yes...I teach empty hand vs. knife. But No....I don't teach false confidence against a knife wielding attacker.

Now...on a personal note, I have survived a few edged attacks myself. Each time, I didn't have a weapon available to me, and I had to use my empty hand, and I survived unharmed. However, I am wise enough to realize that the Angels were watching me at that time....because if any slight dynamic in the situation would have changed I would have been dead or injured. It wasn't my vast amount of skill alone that got me out of it, and I won't falsly think that it was. I now carry a knife with me almost every where I go...because I don't want that one mistake to happend, costing me my life.

With Empty hand encounters, or even blunt weapon encounters, you can afford a mistake. Against a blade, a mistake will most likely kill you.

Thats how I feel on the subject.

Stay safe...

W/ respect,

PAUL


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Sevenstar...I'm not mad at all, even from the other thread. I just have a hard time buying some of what you say, thats all. I just hope your not mad at me for being honest!  *



I'm not mad at all, I think its good to have this kind of discussion. Its allot of fun, and very beneficial to all of us.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now...a short sharp weapon, such as a knife, is very dangerous. It takes very little training to become deadly with the weapon. The only thing that can bme more deadly with less training would be a gun. A knife to me is just below a gun. The reason is because a sharp knife, like a box cutter, hunting knife, folder, etc. is designed to cut....and it cuts meat particularly well. Hang up a slab of pork ribs or a beef cut, and take your blade and practice some slices and stabs. Watch how well even the smallest knife slices meat. You will slice meat into bits, cut through bone, etc. This is what it can do to the body, with very little effort. *



Very true, a blade is not a joke, nothing to enter into inexperienced. I completely agree with how dangerous the knife is. However the amount of danger does not change its usage.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Also, your empty hand sparring with an untrained person isn't the same as a knife person. An untrained person may never "hit" you, but I garuntee thay can touch you if they are determined. All a knife player has to do is touch you and you are cut. Even the smallest cuts on the hands and arms could be severing nerves, cutting arteries and viens, and hindering your ability to fight. Many times, your attacker (especially if they are terrorists who are determined to lose their lives to make a point) may be so out of their minds that they'll take your strikes, a bloody nose, a broken rib, etc., just to close in and cut you repeatedily. When you can't use your limbs as effectively because of cuts and blood loss, your attacker is able to move in and kill you.*



First, I know this may be petty, but I do not practice sparring. I don't find a whole lot of use for it. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents. As far as the severing of nerves and arteries making you bleed out and no longer effective in a fight, that is where the fight is lost. If any fight unarmed or not takes more than a minute or so, you are already screwed. I'm not talking about using techniques they can take and continue fighting such as the bloody nose or broken rib. In a situation with a knife I'm going to be going for the "kill" shots if you will. Taking out a knee, throat shots, arm breaks, and the like. If you let a knife fight go over 4 or 5 moves its already been lost. The idea is, even if cut, continue your attack. In the mantis system, we don't stop our attack until the opponent is unable to retaliate. Ask around for some of the guys who have fought skilled mantis practitioners. Its a very straightforward system. If the winning technique involves cuts that keep you from using your limbs properly, you have allowed the fight to go too long already.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *A knife fighter doesn't have to be skilled. He doesn't have to be trained well. All he has to do is touch you. And...that's the problem with going against a knife fighter empty handed.*



Very, very true! That *is* the problem with going against a knife.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now....do I teach empty hand vs. knife. Absolutly! However, I don't want my students (or myself) to have an aire of false confidence regarding a bladed weapon. This way they will exhaust every other option available before it gets to that point, not just decide "hey...I train empty hand...to I'll just go in to a knife fight empty handed because thats what I am used too!" If you are going empty hand vs. knife, you have to consider your self a walking dead person. You are giving your life up right then in their; its a last resort where you say "F-it!" and you go for broke using what you know. Yes...I teach empty hand vs. knife. But No....I don't teach false confidence against a knife wielding attacker.*



I think we are still missing my point. I would exhaust every available option before getting into any type of fight, not just a knife fight. I don't mean to say that I think, "hey...I train empty hand...to I'll just go in to a knife fight empty handed because thats what I am used too!" What I'm saying is that if I have exhausted every option and the fight is occurring I'm going to go empty hand. I still don't see why me picking up a knife is going to change all this evidence of how dangerous a knife is. 

I consider myself a dead person at the beginning of any true self defense situation. Maybe I'm a nut, but if I'm really fighting thats the way I look at it. Not only when the attacker is armed, but ANY self defense situation. That is why I feel comfortable in my empty hand defense.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now...on a personal note, I have survived a few edged attacks myself. Each time, I didn't have a weapon available to me, and I had to use my empty hand, and I survived unharmed. However, I am wise enough to realize that the Angels were watching me at that time....because if any slight dynamic in the situation would have changed I would have been dead or injured. It wasn't my vast amount of skill alone that got me out of it, and I won't falsly think that it was. I now carry a knife with me almost every where I go...because I don't want that one mistake to happend, costing me my life.*



Thats a good way to look at it, I look at it that way with any type of fight. If I'm having to defend myself, I'm praying with each step I take that the angels watch over me. I am not trying to say I think nothing of an encounter, I'm just trying to say that I feel empty hand does have an equal amount of legitimacy against a knife. Does a knife have legitimacy against a knife? If so, then by simple logic, empty hand must as well.

7sm


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I believe there is credence to training empty hand vs knife, because I don't carry a weapon with me, and refuse to, even when I'm licensed as a concealed handgun carrier.
> 
> 7sm *



Why have a concealed carry permit if you refuse to carry?  That makes no sense? 

Also, most paramedics I know (my brother in law is also a paramedic) do carry some type of tool like a serrated spyderco or at least a multitool to cut seat belts and perform other tasks like prepairing dressings, etc.  As a paramedic you don't carry? Although it goes beyond your martial arts beliefs, don't you need it for your job?


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> First, I know this may be petty, but I do not practice sparring. I don't find a whole lot of use for it. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents.
> 
> 7sm [/B]



I believe the "sparring" you and Paul are referring to are to totally different things.  "Sparring" in the FMA can range from anywhere to no contact to full contact with live weapons, not the typical tournament tag match.   Its an eye opener.  Can you describe what you mean by training in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents?  That can be taken in different ways.

Thanks

Andy


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *This is what I'm confused about however. Why if the knife is so dangerous, does it lose a bit of impossibility when faced with another knife?
> 
> 7sm *



Yourself having a weapon doesn't make the attackers weapon LESS DANGEROUS.  What it does is increase your potential at counter offense.  A mental game could also happen, lets say the attacker just wants your wallet so he's waiving his knife around,   you reach in your pocket pretending to get your wallet but pull out your own blade (I know, it would be better to just give him the wallet).  The attacker is now faced with a decision.  Is it worth it?  He is now mentally put on the defensive.  If I get  close enough to stab him, he could stab me.

If we use a ratio of  1:1  for 2 empty hand people with equal ability.  You put a knife in the first guys hand, for arguments purposes it is now 2:1 (odds are in the knife holders favor)  put the knife in the others guys hand as well and the odds are now 2:2 or back to 1:1.  I know you will have many points against this..."What if the empty handed person is more skilled, etc"  but not knowing that, we have to go by a baseline.

Edgar Sulite had a cool saying.  "in a knife fight, if Your better than the other guy you live and he dies.  If he is better he lives and you die.  If your both really good, you both die."


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Why have a concealed carry permit if you refuse to carry?  That makes no sense?
> 
> Also, most paramedics I know (my brother in law is also a paramedic) do carry some type of tool like a serrated spyderco or at least a multitool to cut seat belts and perform other tasks like prepairing dressings, etc.  As a paramedic you don't carry? Although it goes beyond your martial arts beliefs, don't you need it for your job? *



I have a concealed handgun permit, so that if I'm ever going somewhere that I feel is dangerous enough to carry, I'm able to legally. It may make no sense to you, but its about having the option available to me if I choose to use it.

I dont currently work as a paramedic, although my liscensure is still current. I quite my job to go back to school to get my masters in Physical Therapy. My reason for not carrying is not any kind of belief, I just don't feel like having to worry about having a weapon on me. I don't let anyone have enough control over me to make me carry if I don't want to. Its a personal prefrence thing I guess. Working as a paramedic, I did carry tools with me, but thats a different story than carrying a concealed weapon for self defense.



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *I believe the "sparring" you and Paul are referring to are to totally different things. "Sparring" in the FMA can range from anywhere to no contact to full contact with live weapons, not the typical tournament tag match. Its an eye opener. Can you describe what you mean by training in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents? That can be taken in different ways.
> *



I'm not sure how to explain thins exactly, more than what is allready been said. The closest thing to "sparring" that I do is Chi Saou. My training against opponents is working \with different people who train in different systems. We train in specific situations and also do free training, where neither of us know what the other is going to do. Its hard to explain. 



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Yourself having a weapon doesn't make the attackers weapon LESS DANGEROUS. What it does is increase your potential at counter offense. A mental game could also happen, lets say the attacker just wants your wallet so he's waiving his knife around, you reach in your pocket pretending to get your wallet but pull out your own blade (I know, it would be better to just give him the wallet). The attacker is now faced with a decision. Is it worth it? He is now mentally put on the defensive. If I get close enough to stab him, he could stab me.
> 
> If we use a ratio of 1:1 for 2 empty hand people with equal ability. You put a knife in the first guys hand, for arguments purposes it is now 2:1 (odds are in the knife holders favor) put the knife in the others guys hand as well and the odds are now 2:2 or back to 1:1. I know you will have many points against this..."What if the empty handed person is more skilled, etc" but not knowing that, we have to go by a baseline.
> 
> Edgar Sulite had a cool saying. "in a knife fight, if Your better than the other guy you live and he dies. If he is better he lives and you die. If your both really good, you both die."*



What your saying then is that empty hand techniques are not dangerous or destructive enough to defend against a knife. Because the level of danger your own attack has, has no bearing on the level of attack your opponent has. I think this comes down to a lack of confidence in empty hand techniques. All that has been said about the dangers of facing a knife are still present whne you have a knife as well.

A ratio is incabable of explaining anything having to do with a fight. You can't say its a 1:1 in the begining, and you definatly cant say that putting a knife in each persons hand makes it back to 1:1. A ration or statistic is unable to explain something with so many variables.

7sm


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I have a concealed handgun permit, so that if I'm ever going somewhere that I feel is dangerous enough to carry, I'm able to legally. It may make no sense to you, but its about having the option available to me if I choose to use it.
> 
> I can respect that.  I have all of my paperwork done, I just need to get fingerprinted to get CC permit.
> 
> 
> The closest thing to "sparring" that I do is Chi Saou. My training against opponents is working \with different people who train in different systems.
> 
> We do similar things, but we call them flow drills (hubad, sombrada, etc).  We consider it attribute training to teach timing, rythm, footwork, etc and sometimes as foundation for semi-free sparring, but it is nothing like regular old weapon sparring. Why by the way do you see no value in sparring?  You mentioned "working with different people"... this doesn't exactly sound like fighting "uncooperative opponents".  It sounds like trading notes so you both can learn, which is great.
> 
> 
> 
> What your saying then is that empty hand techniques are not dangerous or destructive enough to defend against a knife. Because the level of danger your own attack has, has no bearing on the level of attack your opponent has. I think this comes down to a lack of confidence in empty hand techniques. All that has been said about the dangers of facing a knife are still present whne you have a knife as well.
> 
> 
> Agreed!  The danger (or lack of danger depending on your views)  of the knife person DOES NOT change no matter if you have a weapon or not.  What DOES change is the fact that when you have a knife you have a tool to help you survive. Empty hand techniques CAN work vs a knife, its just my argument that having something to help, provided the person is trained properly, is better. So I have agreed that emptyhand techniques can and do work, I have stated this from the beginning,  other posters have given personal accounts of being unarmed vs a knife and surviving, but I'd still rather have a stick or a knife.  I will still scavange the ground for a trash can lid or 2x4, and I will still run like hell and be called a coward.
> 
> A ratio is incabable of explaining anything having to do with a fight. You can't say its a 1:1 in the begining, and you definatly cant say that putting a knife in each persons hand makes it back to 1:1. A ration or statistic is unable to explain something with so many variables.
> 
> 7sm *



How else would you explain 2 equal fighters? I used this as a baseline because of all the variables of you could be better, the attacker could be better, you both don't know whats going on, or your both expert killers.  Of course if the knife person is a novice and the emptyhand person is a seasoned expert it going to sway the ratio.  I'm trying to keep it even so that when we introduce the item in question, the knife, we can determine if it has an effect on the fight.  Do you mean to tell me if you get 2 trained people that are both pretty good and put a knife in one of there hands, its not going to matter?


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## arnisandyz

sorry, some of my replys got mixed in with your quotes 7sm


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## arnisador

Bear in mind that if you have a knife and your opponent has a knife then he is going to adjust his game. Yes his knife is just as deadly, but he'll likely use it in an even more tentative way (that isn't really the word I want here but it'll have to do). So, there is a fundamanetal difference in my opinion if you both have knives.

A knife makes one punch-one kill much more of a possibility than just empty hands. It also makes the empty-hands strategy of closing to finish off an opponent potentially riskier.


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## lhommedieu

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Your using statistics to prove an encounter that contains an abundance of variables that render statistics inaccurate. A fight, is in no way limited by statistics. Its not feasable to accept an outcome of an encounter using statistics.*


*

Actually, I'm not using statistics to bolster my argument; I'm arguing that the odds of surviving a knife vs. knife encounter are approximately "even" (50/50),  or "less than even," if neither party stops short of being stopped while trying to stop the other guy.  Why?  Because of the well-known adage that there are three possible endings to this sort of encounter: a) you both end up dead; b) they're dead and you're not; c) you're dead and they're not.  (Notice that you end up dead 2/3's of the time.)  Now, I'm well aware of the fact that this is a somewhat artificial arguement, and I'm merely using it a tool to focus the discussion. For example, it's possible to be stabbed repeatedly and still survive this kind of fight.  It's also possible, that if two unarmed opponents make up their minds not to stop until they've stopped the other guy, one of them might end up dead as a result of the other's actions, e.g., A breaks B's neck with a hold or B stomps A to death with his boots after knocking him down and out.   

It's just so much more likely to happen with an edged weapon than without one, for the following reasons:

1.  The inherent lethality of the knife, which indescriminately severs arteries and organs irrespective of skill or technique.
2.  The inherent randomness of fighting, which takes #1 and exponentializes it.  (I am thus not discounting the "abundance of variables," as you suggest above, but accepting them as a given).

In my personal opinion, if my odds are so poor to begin with knife vs. knife, then they are even less unarmed vs. knife, as stated previously.




			I don't understand if an attacker is weilding a knife, and I'm unarmed, what is going to raise my chances of survival so much by me taking up a 3" blade? Your telling me that all this speed and dangerous tearing of arteries done by well trained knife fighters is going to go away because I pick up a blade myself? Forgive me, but that is naive.
		
Click to expand...


I never said that anything was going to "go away."  I said that your chances were better with a knife than without, and added the caveat that they weren't so good anyway.  And yes, I'd prefer a 3" blade over nothing at all.





			No one on this thread is suggesting getting into this type of situation, in fact, I prefer to stay out of any type of physical encounter myself. A dangerous fantasy would be entering into an encounter hoping on statistics to save you. A dangerous fantasy would be to believe that because you pull a blade you are invincible. Training empty habd vs knife is a realistic situation to train against, because it can happen to you. Training realistically against it, knowing your going to get cut, possibly even seriously, is realistic. I know the realism of getting cut, but that doesn't change that think a skilled fighter can effectivly defend themselves against an edged weapon. I've seen it done, I've had to do it myself, it is possible, and very worth training for.

7sm
		
Click to expand...

*
With respect to knives, I train "I have a knife, you don't," "I have a knife, you have a knife," "I don't have a knife, you have a knife."   They're all worth training for, and for different reasons.  I favor having a weapon "in hand" when facing another weapon merely because it increases my odds, however marginally.

No one wants to be in the situations we've been describing, for obvious reasons.  And, to be honest, this is just an internet chat - far away from anything that can be adequately described in words.  I don't think I've engaged in dangerous fantasies by stating that weapons make good equalizers, given that I'm kind of pessimistic in the first place.  I certainly wouldn't, for example, put down my weapon against an armed opponent because I had more confidence in my unarmed fighting abilities than the average guy (even if they _were_ better).   I guess my hypothetical question would be:  "Who goes unarmed to a knife fight?"  I'll fetch my gun.

BTW, in an informal survey of 1024 gladiators in the coliseum circa 256 A.D., 0.0% chose to enter the arena without their weapon.  This survey had a margin of error of 0.5%.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *I certainly wouldn't, for example, put down my weapon against an armed opponent because I had more confidence in my unarmed fighting abilities than the average guy (even if they were better).   I guess my hypothetical question would be:  "Who goes unarmed to a knife fight?"  I'll fetch my gun.*


I think the answer to your hypothetical question would be *nobody*. I'm not suggesting entering into any type of fight, I'm saying that if a situation arises, I would prefer to be empty handed. Thats my prefrence. For anyone to say that is naive or unrealistic is ignoring the reason they themselves train. I am perfectly aware of the dangers of a knife fight, I have been saying them myself, I don't see why my belief that empty hand has the same margin for victory that another knife would is offensive or intemidating. All the facts that you guys have so ardently presented as to why not to fight a person with a knife applies to whether you have another weapon or are unarmed. 
The idea that empty hand is not devistating enough to defned against a knife is just a voice of inexperience in empty hand techniques.



> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *BTW, in an informal survey of 1024 gladiators in the coliseum circa 256 A.D., 0.0% chose to enter the arena without their weapon.  This survey had a margin of error of 0.5%.
> *



How many gladiators used 3" knife blades? Thats all we are talking about here, not long weapons.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *We do similar things, but we call them flow drills (hubad, sombrada, etc). We consider it attribute training to teach timing, rythm, footwork, etc and sometimes as foundation for semi-free sparring, but it is nothing like regular old weapon sparring. Why by the way do you see no value in sparring? You mentioned "working with different people"... this doesn't exactly sound like fighting "uncooperative opponents". It sounds like trading notes so you both can learn, which is great.
> *


I'm sorry, I can't find a more appropriate way to explain my training to you. I think the problem is more an issue with you not wanting to accept my training as valid. Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training.
Please dont take this as me being upset with what you wrote, I'm not at all, I just don't know how to explain my training more. 



> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Do you mean to tell me if you get 2 trained people that are both pretty good and put a knife in one of there hands, its not going to matter?*



No, I'm not saying it wont matter, I'm saying it wont make the "fight" completely impossible. I'm saying that certain people or certain systems train in empty hand vs blade and are competent enough to defend against it.

7sm


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I'm sorry, I can't find a more appropriate way to explain my training to you. I think the problem is more an issue with you not wanting to accept my training as valid. Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training.
> Please dont take this as me being upset with what you wrote, I'm not at all, I just don't know how to explain my training more.
> 
> 7sm *




Its not that I don't want to accept your training, just trying to understand what you do. 

so far I've heard  you describe your training as..."Realistic Hardcore training, Chi Saou. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents. My training against opponents is working with different people who train in different systems. We train in specific situations and also do free training, where neither of us know what the other is going to do. We focus on applicable techniques and work on the realistic application of ever technique...focus simply of the realism of self-defense."

Here is an example of one of our sparring matches (perhaps this will help you define your hardcore training to me)...  We fight either within a 2 minute period continuous OR we fight till potentially leathal or disabling blows prevent the other person from fighting.  We fight with 28" rattan sticks or 12" aluminum daggers or 6" aluminum folder simulators or empty hand and variations of all of the above.  We do wear headgear (were not stupid) and light hand protection and a cup. knee and elbow pads optional, but we don't go too heavily padded up. Striking and kicking are permitted. Ground fighting, grappling, biting, pinching is permited. Disarms sometimes happen in which case the fighter that lost his weapon continues empty handed vs the weapon. The potential for broken bones and bruises is there, leathal target areas (mainly the head) is somewhat protected by gear. I will almost bet the others that have posted will tell you something somewhat similar in their training.  We're not quite the Dog Brothers (lol) nor do we want to be, but we want to make our training as realistic without major injuries. Someone is REALLY tring to hit or stab you and you return the favor.  Hopefully by this post you can see how to describe your training to us.


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## arnisador

Another good place for info. on this sort of thing is BladeForums. Here's a thread on untrained attackers:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=285599


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *Its not that I don't want to accept your training, just trying to understand what you do.
> 
> so far I've heard  you describe your training as..."Realistic Hardcore training, Chi Saou. I only train in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents. My training against opponents is working with different people who train in different systems. We train in specific situations and also do free training, where neither of us know what the other is going to do. We focus on applicable techniques and work on the realistic application of ever technique...focus simply of the realism of self-defense."
> 
> Here is an example of one of our sparring matches (perhaps this will help you define your hardcore training to me)...  We fight either within a 2 minute period continuous OR we fight till potentially leathal or disabling blows prevent the other person from fighting.  We fight with 28" rattan sticks or 12" aluminum daggers or 6" aluminum folder simulators or empty hand and variations of all of the above.  We do wear headgear (were not stupid) and light hand protection and a cup. knee and elbow pads optional, but we don't go too heavily padded up. Striking and kicking are permitted. Ground fighting, grappling, biting, pinching is permited. Disarms sometimes happen in which case the fighter that lost his weapon continues empty handed vs the weapon. The potential for broken bones and bruises is there, leathal target areas (mainly the head) is somewhat protected by gear. I will almost bet the others that have posted will tell you something somewhat similar in their training.  We're not quite the Dog Brothers (lol) nor do we want to be, but we want to make our training as realistic without major injuries. Someone is REALLY tring to hit or stab you and you return the favor.  Hopefully by this post you can see how to describe your training to us. *



We use our training weapons which are either wooden, steel, or hard rubber. We practice at about 85% speed and power. We allow any and every technique including sweeps and chin na techniques. I'll give you an example. One seesion consists of a 5 minute horse stance, followed by a timed 3 mile run, followed by our newest 6 forms full speed 3 times each, followed by 45 minutes of continuous fighting (full speed and power chi soau).
After this, we do continuous fighting with weapons, including staff, daggers, spear, flute, and broadsword, usually. That is the kind of training we do 4 times a week. After the continuous fighting we will go to specific situational training. That means I have no knife, you have a knife and you attack me in any way you feel fit. I defend myself. Then I have a knife, you have a knife, you attack me in any way you fel fit. I defend myself.

I don't feel the need to compare my training with anyones, I don't think that helps any of us. I'm sure you train hard as well. My training regiment shouldn't come into play here, as yours shouldn't either. 

We are discussing the affectivness of empty hand techniques against a knife armed assailent. I think it is naive and close-minded to think that empty hand techniques are less legitament against a knife than any other type of defense.

7sm


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## KumaSan

Back to the central question, I might as well drop by and add my two cents. For me, personally, it's part of the mindset. If the bad guy has a knife, then me drawing my blade is my mental declaration of the Cold War era nuclear war protocol. Mutually Assured Destruction. Either we both die, or only he dies. His life is forfeit.

Also, a lot of people around here probably (if not, forgive me) train the common FMA style defang the snake methods (or behead and disembowel the snake for the Sayoc people). While these techniques can be effective empty handed, they have a higher percentage of working with a weapon in hand.


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *We use our training weapons which are either wooden, steel, or hard rubber. We practice at about 85% speed and power. We allow any and every technique including sweeps and chin na techniques. I'll give you an example. One seesion consists of a 5 minute horse stance, followed by a timed 3 mile run, followed by our newest 6 forms full speed 3 times each, followed by 45 minutes of continuous fighting (full speed and power chi soau).
> After this, we do continuous fighting with weapons, including staff, daggers, spear, flute, and broadsword, usually. That is the kind of training we do 4 times a week. After the continuous fighting we will go to specific situational training. That means I have no knife, you have a knife and you attack me in any way you feel fit. I defend myself. Then I have a knife, you have a knife, you attack me in any way you fel fit. I defend myself.
> 
> I don't feel the need to compare my training with anyones, I don't think that helps any of us. I'm sure you train hard as well. My training regiment shouldn't come into play here, as yours shouldn't either.
> 
> We are discussing the affectivness of empty hand techniques against a knife armed assailent. I think it is naive and close-minded to think that empty hand techniques are less legitament against a knife than any other type of defense.
> 
> 7sm *



Thanks for sharing!  Its not that  i want to compare training regiments to prove "I'm better than you" or "your better than me". I've "borrowed" various training techniques from different people, and even though you may not see any benifit in exchanging ideas, I like to see what other people are doing out there in regards to knife fighting/defense. Thats all.

I don't think anybody claimed emptyhand techniques are LESS legitimate.  If you read through the post again the overtone of most people (even yourself) is "I prefer..."  or "I feel more comfortable ...""for me, I like to think of it as a police officer would look at the weapons available to him 1. pistol  2.  baton  3. pepperspray.  While pepperspray CAN be very effective in putting someone down the other 2 levels of force are more effective. Its up to the officer's protocol as to which tool to use depending on the situation and his comfort level with his tools.


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## arnisandyz

I don't think we will ever come to an agreement, nor did  expect us to from the beginning. But as I mentioned,  I've enoyed debating with you 7sm.  You sound like a true Martial Artist who trains very hard for what you believe in, and  I can't find any faults with that.  good luck in your training and stay safe on the streets.

Andy


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *I don't think we will ever come to an agreement, nor did  expect us to from the beginning. But as I mentioned,  I've enoyed debating with you 7sm.  You sound like a true Martial Artist who trains very hard for what you believe in, and  I can't find any faults with that.  good luck in your training and stay safe on the streets.
> 
> Andy *



I think your right, nothing either of us will say is going to change our training or mindset. We have had some good discusion here about empty hand vs knife. You guys sound like hard training martial artist as well, and that is a good thing. 

I hope that if nothing else, some of you have at least given a little more thought or creedence to an empty hand person defending against a knife. I take away more knowledge of the dangers of a knife which have allways been high. Good Discussion.

7sm


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## Cruentus

You guys ended the discussion w/out me! I have only a few things to add.



> I believe the "sparring" you and Paul are referring to are to totally different things. "Sparring" in the FMA can range from anywhere to no contact to full contact with live weapons, not the typical tournament tag match. Its an eye opener. Can you describe what you mean by training in realistic situations with uncooperative opponents? That can be taken in different ways.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Andy



Yup...I just wanted to reinerate that I am not talking about tournament sparring. I am more or less talking about live training as opposed to drill based or form based training.



> I consider myself a dead person at the beginning of any true self defense situation.
> 
> 7sm



I think that this is a good mentality to have, one that I have as well. However, if we are to look at the issue in terms of statistics, statisticly speaking less then 1% of all murders each year are committed by someone without a weapon. So, realistically, if you are empty hand vs. empty hand, you are most likely not going to die. Your chances of dying are far greater if the person has any kind of weapon...but especially if they have a blade or gun. This is just something to think about.

*Why can "picking something up" help reduce the danger of a knife wielding attacker?* 

 Part of the danger with a knife attacker is that they can do what has been termed "nickle and dime" you. Basically this entails not throwing a commited attack, but rather slashing repidly and tightly at your limbs and areas thought to be "non-vital". The danger in this is that each cut makes it more difficult for you to return an attack, or defend against his. Once you have been "nickle and dimed" to the point where you are having extreme difficulty defending, then your attacker is able to close in on you much easier to go for a kill. This "nickle and dime" approach is very dangerous because even if you manage to take his weapon and/or take him out, how many "nickle and dime" cuts can your body take? Even 1 of these could be a nerve or artery severing blow, causing you death or perminent injury, even after the attack has ended.

Now I'll address "picking something up" that is not bladed. This could be a stick, a coat, a belt, a rock....anything. How does this help even the highly trained empty-hand martial artist? By picking something up, you are able to put an object between yourself and the attackers blade, potentially preventing him from "nickle and diming" you. If I am wearing a thick leather coat and leather gloves, for instance, I may be able to keep it on, and the sleeves and gloves may protect my arms from slashes, and the coat in general may protect me from stabs, to a degree. All those rapid little slashes may only do minimal damage in this case. Or, lets say I have a kevlar helmet (like on a battle feild), or a rock. I can use the helmet or rock to strike his knife hand, and I can use it as a shield. Basically, what you are doing with "picking something up" is you are allowing the "object" to be nickle and dimes rather then your own limbs and body. This may buy you an opportunity to take control of his knife hand, return the attack, or flee the scene. The limitation of a non-bladed object, however, is that it is more defensive then offensive. You can shield and block and even attack, but your blocks and attacks may not damage your attacker enough to stop him, making it enevitable that he will close the gap and kill you unless you are able to render him unable to attack. Plus, your nonsharp object may fail to defend you; the knife could cut through my leather jacket, or he could slice the hand that is holding the kevlar helmet or rock. There is no sure thing, with this, but it does improve your chances.

Now, let's say "you pick something up" that is sharp. Lets say you draw your own knife, for instance. Now...you have all the advantages of the protection of the blunt object...you can put something in front of the knife other then your own limbs. However, now you can be more offensive rather then only defensive. If he touches you with his blade...you are cut....but the same is true for him if you touch him with yours. Even if you are mostly an empty hand fighter, your skin is not steel proof, and you can't slice him open with your punches. It is an advantage for you to have a blade even if you only know how to fight empty hand. The reason is because as a trained martial artists, you have develped the timing, awareness, angling/distancing, and technique to be able to hit the opponent, and not get hit. The difference now is that when you "hit" you are cutting, and when you block or parry, you are cutting. He can't "nickle and dime" you without worrying about being "nickle and dimed" himself. He cannot simply close the gap to kill you without having to worry about your blade in the process. A knife is the great "equalizer." 

So....I maintain that no matter who you are and what you know, Picking up something to put in front of a knife is better then nothing, and picking up a blade will put you on somewhat of an even ground with your attacker, even if your not trained well with the blade.

Some of you can disagree with me, but this is what I think...

PAUL
     :asian:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> *I've "borrowed" various training techniques from different people*



You're a better man than I am--I've outright stolen them!

I take stuff from this board back to my teaching and training--especially my teaching, as I "borrow" someone's way of saying or viewing things--and that's what makes these discussions not just sterile, academic debates.


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## arnisandyz

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *You guys ended the discussion w/out me! I have only a few things to add.
> 
> Why can "picking something up" help reduce the danger
> 
> Paul, didn't really mean to end the discussion,  I was just running out of things to say!!!  Good point about using objects as a "shield". I watched one video I think it was marc mcYoung were he mentioned that plastic garbage can lids are great (if available) because the knife might get stuck in it, so while the attacker is working to get his knife out, you run or fight. One of my friends who has no MA experience at all, told me that when he got into a run in with a knife he actually took one of his shoes off ready to use as you mentioned.
> 
> Another thing to think about would be using the enviornment for the same purpose.  Make they guy chase you around a tree or lamp post, car. Keep the object between you and the knife.
> 
> Andy*


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *I'm sorry, I can't find a more appropriate way to explain my training to you. I think the problem is more an issue with you not wanting to accept my training as valid. Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training.
> Please dont take this as me being upset with what you wrote, I'm not at all, I just don't know how to explain my training more.
> 
> 7sm *



7SM,

If you are ever in the Mid West, please let me know. I would like to see your style of fighting and sparring. I am always willing to learn and learn new ways.

:asian:


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now, let's say "you pick something up" that is sharp. Lets say you draw your own knife, for instance. Now...you have all the advantages of the protection of the blunt object...you can put something in front of the knife other then your own limbs. However, now you can be more offensive rather then only defensive. If he touches you with his blade...you are cut....but the same is true for him if you touch him with yours. Even if you are mostly an empty hand fighter, your skin is not steel proof, and you can't slice him open with your punches. It is an advantage for you to have a blade even if you only know how to fight empty hand. The reason is because as a trained martial artists, you have develped the timing, awareness, angling/distancing, and technique to be able to hit the opponent, and not get hit. The difference now is that when you "hit" you are cutting, and when you block or parry, you are cutting. He can't "nickle and dime" you without worrying about being "nickle and dimed" himself. He cannot simply close the gap to kill you without having to worry about your blade in the process. A knife is the great "equalizer."
> *



This doesn't have to be "closed". I do have a few things to retort with. "Please Allow me to retort" (Samuel L. Jackson quote)  

I don't think the 3" long, 1/2 inch think blade is going to act as much of a protection or shield. Trying to use your blade to block or shield his blade is just going to get you cut. I'm not trying to say its good to only train as an empty hand fighter, I certainly don't. 
I think the problem is focusing on the "slicing him open" statment. You don't need to slice him open if you can crush his attack. Thats my point. If your empty hand techniques are devistating enough, the needing extra damage in your attacks is not neccesary.

I understand the dangers of the "nickle and dime" situation. What my strategy would be is to not let the fight last long enough for a nickle and dime strategy to even have merit. If you fighting a 275 pound 6'4" full contact UFC fighter, are you going to try and stall the fight long enough to get him tired? Are you going to try and trade punches with him? No, your going to try and take out a knee, or something so devistating that he will not be getting back up to finish the fight. Its the same with a knife weilding opponent. Don't stick around long enough to let him nickle and dime you, or for the nickle and dime to take effect. I know your saying that after the fight, you may still be seriously cut. That is very true, but the true danger of him killing you is over, you can then get to a hospital or whatever is neccesary. True, you could still die. Those are the dangers of defending against a knife, armed or unarmed.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Part of the danger with a knife attacker is that they can do what has been termed "nickle and dime" you. Basically this entails not throwing a commited attack, but rather slashing repidly and tightly at your limbs and areas thought to be "non-vital". *



Ok, let me give you my strategy about this type of situation. Him (or her) throwing, not comitted attacks, but slashing rapidly and tightly, is going to cause me to back up, or move to the side in order to stay out of the attacks. This means the slashing is not contacting with me at all. However, the rapid slashing will bring us closer at which point I will find a spot to steal his/her attack and stop the encounter as quickly and devistatingly as possible.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *7SM,
> 
> If you are ever in the Mid West, please let me know. I would like to see your style of fighting and sparring. I am always willing to learn and learn new ways.
> 
> :asian: *



I would love that, I really enjoy training with people from other systems. You can really learn alot that way. 
If your ever in East Texas, let me know, we'll do some training.

7sm


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## Cruentus

First off, a 1 inch blade does act as a "shield" in the sense that if you use your empty hand to block, the knife wielder can easily twist his wrist around and cut your limb. If your block is actually an attack to the opponents wrist with a 1 inch blade, then this becomes more difficult. So, your right in that this isn't a 'shield' in the conventional sense, but I guess that is hard to explain over the internet. So, if you come accross a school that teaches real knife tactics, ask them about this and I am sure that they can show you.

I guess my biggest problem is that I feel that you have a very unrealistic outlook here. Unless your running, in control of the knife hand already, or shielding, you don't have much control over the nickle and dime effect, period. You seem to think that your going to close the gap and prevent him from nickle and diming you, not realizing that he can retreat as you close, slicing you up in the process. It doesn't sound like you understand this "effect" at all. You also seem to have a lot of faith in your ability to "crush his attack." The way you describe how you would "take out his knees" (even if he's a 275 lb UFC fighter) is akin to superhuman powers. You also seem to believe that your method of "sparring" superceeds all other styles (that you've seen). I guess if that was true, then that would explain your superhuman abilites to close the gap, and crush your opponents attack, right? Well, its a little to much to swallow for me.

It would seem to me that your either A. Extremely niave or B. You know your full of it, but you want all of us to believe you have superhuman abilities. I don't know the answer, but if I had to guess, I'd guess its both. You talk like someone who has never really had to defend themselves outside of the MA school, but who wants the world wide web to believe otherwise. 

Now, I know the above could be seen as very insulting, so I apologize. I am not angry or upset, but I just can't believe what you say. I mean this in the friendliest way possible, but if we ever have the chance to run into each other, your going to have to prove a lot of what you say to me for me to believe it. Hell, if its all true, I'd quite my style(s) and move to Texas to train. I guess "seeing is believing" in this case, and I have yet to have the superior empty hand vs. knife abilities demonstrated to me that you have illustrated. And I have been training for 19 years in the martial arts, I have trained with some of the best in the world (for their field), and I have experienced styles from almost every genre and culture. I have yet to see demonstrated the abilities you describe. 

Have a good one....

PAUL


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *First off, a 1 inch blade does act as a "shield" in the sense that if you use your empty hand to block, the knife wielder can easily twist his wrist around and cut your limb. If your block is actually an attack to the opponents wrist with a 1 inch blade, then this becomes more difficult. So, your right in that this isn't a 'shield' in the conventional sense, but I guess that is hard to explain over the internet. So, if you come accross a school that teaches real knife tactics, ask them about this and I am sure that they can show you.*



I know exactly what your talking about, we use it in our knife training. You seem to think that I have no training with the knife, quite the contrary. If I had to use a weapon of my choosing, the knife would be my first choice. I have trained quite a bit using the knife, not as much as you I'm sure, but enough to understand what your suggesting about the "shield". I just don't believe, except in Steven Seagal movies, that using a knife to deflect or block another knife is a good idea. I guess we differ there.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I guess my biggest problem is that I feel that you have a very unrealistic outlook here. Unless your running, in control of the knife hand already, or shielding, you don't have much control over the nickle and dime effect, period. You seem to think that your going to close the gap and prevent him from nickle and diming you, not realizing that he can retreat as you close, slicing you up in the process.*



Its ok that you can't see what I'm talking about. People who train heavily in a particular weapon or technique generally have a hard time hearing it is not the end all be all of fighting. Your talking about my closing the gap and having control of the knife hand as two separate things. This mentality took me a while to lose as well when I started studying under my Sifu. Its hard to see three of four or more techniques thrown in to an almost simultaneous movement. Why would I close the gap without either A) having control of the knife hand (iffy at best) or B) having yielded out of the way allowing the attacker to become over committed. 
Your taking everything I say as a declaration of my superiority. Thats a little hasty as I have said I am not condoning fighting an opponent armed or unarmed. My first reaction is to run, or cry like a little baby girl and maybe not even have to fight. I'm just giving you my beliefs and experience which lead me to believe that defending empty hand against a knife is not an impossible accomplishment.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *It doesn't sound like you understand this "effect" at all. You also seem to have a lot of faith in your ability to "crush his attack." The way you describe how you would "take out his knees" (even if he's a 275 lb UFC fighter) is akin to superhuman powers. You also seem to believe that your method of "sparring" superceeds all other styles (that you've seen). I guess if that was true, then that would explain your superhuman abilites to close the gap, and crush your opponents attack, right? Well, its a little to much to swallow for me.*



I did some "soul searching" since we have been talking about this subject. I went to my sifu and talked with him in length about this type of situation to see if maybe I'm being a little overly confident. In turn he spoke with his Sifu about it. Now we are talking about a man who trained under, and then taught for Master Chan Poi in the Wah Lum Temple for 4 years. He has trained under the best in the world in mantis and several systems of kung fu, including Lee Kam Wing, Chan Poi, and Henry Chung to name a few. They seem to be under the same inclination that I am. We do have allot of faith in our ability to "crush an attack" just as you seem to have allot of faith in your ability to "nickel and dime" me to death. Or kill me as I try and disarm you. Each time you say what I'm saying is hard for you to swallow, you make the same narcissistic comments about your training and beliefs that you say make you not believe me. 

If your under the impression that me (6'2", 206lbs) would need to have superhuman powers to take out or crush a knee of a 275 pound person is inexperienced at best. I suggest talking with a sports medicine doctor or possible trauma surgeon and asking what amount of pressure is needed to break a patella, or even the tendons around a knee. You will be amazed at the response you get. The head trauma surgeon for Mother Francis Hospital Services happens to work out with us here at the school and he seems to think about 8 or 10 pounds of pressure appropriately placed would not only crush someone's attack, but possible sever the arteries around the knee causing massive internal bleed out and death within 8 or 10 hours if not treated. 
I'm not trying to throw knowledge on you to make you believe me, I'm trying to let you see how much training and study I've put into my beliefs. Its not something I take lightly, I'm very serious about my training, as are you from what I gather. Why not learn from each other, and not write each other off as imbeciles.

I don't believe that my method of "sparring" supercedes anyone's. I believe you have interpreted that incorrectly. I do think after having seen many people training regiments, that mine is quite legitimate, but I don't take credit for that, my sifu is who developed and taught me how to train. You seem to be more comfortable believing I'm a rambling lunatic saying I'm better than everyone else. I haven't said I'm better than ANYONE else. I don't believe in making those type of comparisons, I don't think it helps my training, and if my training isn't improved, or my skill, why do it? I can tell you, after having played hands and done just a few drills with my sigung, I would deffinatly label his skill level as "superhuman". But thats just my inexperience talking probably. Attack him with a knife and he would be nothing I'm sure.  



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *It would seem to me that your either A. Extremely niave or B. You know your full of it, but you want all of us to believe you have superhuman abilities. I don't know the answer, but if I had to guess, I'd guess its both. You talk like someone who has never really had to defend themselves outside of the MA school, but who wants the world wide web to believe otherwise.*



Thats fine. Your choosing to interpret my beliefs as me wanting to sound better than anyone, even when I continually say I don't think I'm better than ANYONE. Thats ok though, its easier to write me off that way. I'm really sorry I have come across as sounding naive or inexperienced, my goal was to simply discuss the equation of empty hand defense against a knife. I do not attempt to show myself as being some type of superhuman skilled warrior. I see myself as a young inexperienced student, who has a lifetime of stuff to learn. It looks as if we are about the same age, Paul, I'm about a year older than you. It looks like we started MA about the same time. I would presume we could learn allot from each other if we weren't trying to write each other off. 



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now, I know the above could be seen as very insulting, so I apologize. I am not angry or upset, but I just can't believe what you say. I mean this in the friendliest way possible, but if we ever have the chance to run into each other, your going to have to prove a lot of what you say to me for me to believe it. Hell, if its all true, I'd quite my style(s) and move to Texas to train. I guess "seeing is believing" in this case, and I have yet to have the superior empty hand vs. knife abilities demonstrated to me that you have illustrated. And I have been training for 19 years in the martial arts, I have trained with some of the best in the world (for their field), and I have experienced styles from almost every genre and culture. I have yet to see demonstrated the abilities you describe. *



I would love to show some of what I'm talking about, but not for the reason of proving I'm better than you or anyone else. If we could work together to both learn from the encounter, that would be nice. I'm not trying to show that my "style" is any better than anyone's. I'm trying to show that unrealistic training is that which ignores that facts that what your doing is not the only thing in the world. To say that "no one no matter who they are or what they have trained in" would best you if you had a knife, is a little conceited, and unrealistic in my opinion. It has been my experience that there is ALLWAYS someone much better out there whom you haven't yet encountered. I'm not claiming to be this person, I'm just saying, train hard, as you do, but train realistically. You cannot believe that one type of weapon can beat anyone at any time regardless of skill level.

7sm


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## Cruentus

I agree...we could both learn a lot by getting on the floor with each other. I try to learn from anyone that way, frankly. Like I said, this is one of those cases where I'd have to "see to believe" because much of what you say is contrary to what I have learned in my 19 years of training.

As to "crushing someones attack"...let me say that I am 5'7 1/2", yet I weight 230 (I am cutting wieght though right now, so I'll probably weigh 215 in a few months); I squat over 600lbs. and bench around 400....and thats reps. I have been told that I hit like a "ton of bricks" by professional fighters. Sorry to sound like I am grandstanding here, but I am making a point. That point is that the human body is at times much more fragile then we think, and is also much more resilient then we think. With my size, strength, and stiking ability, I hope that if I smash my foot into someones knee, it breaks. Yet, I know that if my focus is the least bit off, and if he is a resilient attacker, this may not happend. I can't be as arrogent to expect this to occur. 

Here is a project that might help you. Find a MMArtist, and say that you want to fight him full contact, but ask if knee strikes could be allowed. Most MMArtists can be pretty cocky, so I am sure you'll find one that will agree. Then...play. I think you'll be very suprised that his knee  might not shatter on contact, where he'll need medical attantion within 8-10 hours to prevent his injury from becoming fatal.  

I will say that my full contact experience, although I am refering to competition and not combat, was really sobering for me in understanding the effects of my strikes on a resisting opponent, and the effects of their strikes on my. I wouldn't put my straightened knee accross a table to let someone smash it with a hammer at 10 lbs of pressure, but I'd let someone try to kick it while I am fighting them anyday.

Also...understand that when I am talking about the dangers of a knife attacker, I am not boasting my own abilities. Give me 15 minutes to train anyone, and we'll see the outcome against you, or the highest ranking priest from fuk m upp temple. You'll be suprised to find the outcome. I am not saying that your instructors would be helpless, but I am saying that I believe that you'll be suprised that their standard of error...in other words I'll bet that at least 50% of the time your "Masters" are going to get diced by the untrained person in the process of their defense. Its just the way life is.

Anyways, I don't mean to write you off, but I don't think I will be able to believe what you say just from the internet. There aren't any sources you can point to to support your arguement (not your fault, but this is just the way it is), yet there are plenty to support mine. So, I'd have to "see to believe".

Here is an interesting article you should check out. Besides learning that combative's instructors shouldn't do math (lol), I think this site is very informative:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/statisticalchances.htm


PAUL
:asian:


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## Cruentus

Weapon of choice....knife? 

Well, if the question is "weapon of choice....blade?" then the answer is...

YES 

Rather, the weapon of choice for combat has always been something that cuts through flesh. The only exception is when rules are imposed (stick dueling in the PI, or sparing matches in the US for instance), which is not real combat per say, or when armor is involved. Most of the time, and throughout history, the weapon of choice is something that can cut through flesh. knives fall into this category. Even firearms....what does a bullet do? IT projects at a high speed, thus cutting through the person on contact. Bullets cut through flesh also. 

So...as long as blades have been in existance, I maintain that something bladed is prefered over something that isn't; if your object is to kill in combat.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I agree...we could both learn a lot by getting on the floor with each other. I try to learn from anyone that way, frankly. Like I said, this is one of those cases where I'd have to "see to believe" because much of what you say is contrary to what I have learned in my 19 years of training.{/B]*


*

What is it that I say that is so contrary to your extensive experience? That you can back up and not be cut? That you can close someone throat with a strike to that region? I'm not sure what is contrary to your training that I stated?




Originally posted by PAUL 
As to "crushing someones attack"...let me say that I am 5'7 1/2", yet I weight 230 (I am cutting wieght though right now, so I'll probably weigh 215 in a few months); I squat over 600lbs. and bench around 400....and thats reps. I have been told that I hit like a "ton of bricks" by professional fighters. 

Click to expand...


I'm glad you feel confident in your body. What does this have to do with our discussion?  The more I listen to your posts, the harder it is getting to accept what your telling me as well. I'm sorry, no ofense ment, but c'mon. 




Originally posted by PAUL 
That point is that the human body is at times much more fragile then we think, and is also much more resilient then we think. With my size, strength, and stiking ability, I hope that if I smash my foot into someones knee, it breaks. Yet, I know that if my focus is the least bit off, and if he is a resilient attacker, this may not happend. I can't be as arrogent to expect this to occur. 

Click to expand...


First thing, your only thinking in "one deminsion". There are about a million ways to kick someone's knee. Not all have to be straight on full power crushing kicks. I full weighted downward kick to the side of the knee will force the knee into the concrete or asphalt and effectivle crush the knee. That will not take an exorbitant amount of pressure or power.




Originally posted by PAUL 
Here is a project that might help you. Find a MMArtist, and say that you want to fight him full contact, but ask if knee strikes could be allowed. Most MMArtists can be pretty cocky, so I am sure you'll find one that will agree. Then...play. I think you'll be very suprised that his knee  might not shatter on contact, where he'll need medical attantion within 8-10 hours to prevent his injury from becoming fatal.  

Click to expand...


I regularly train with a MMA guy who uses our bag room. We do basically full contact training. I mentioned that allready. Your not seriously suggesting fighting full contact and me trying to take out his knee with a full contact kick? Thats not very smart, you don't keep training partners that way. Paul, I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, but lets not go overboard and try to make what I say sound retarted. I never said anything about shattering anything on contact. Oh, and for a project, do that research I talked about. Not believing me is fine, I mean I don't yet have my masters degree in Physical Therapy, but go aska sports medicine doctor, or trauma sergeon. A full power kick to the side of a knee driving it into the concrete is not goign to be something easy to recover from. 
Also, I never said anythin about expecting that to end it. In fact I said in the mantis system you keep going with more nad more techniques. 




Originally posted by PAUL 
I will say that my full contact experience, although I am refering to competition and not combat, was really sobering for me in understanding the effects of my strikes on a resisting opponent, and the effects of their strikes on my. I wouldn't put my straightened knee accross a table to let someone smash it with a hammer at 10 lbs of pressure, but I'd let someone try to kick it while I am fighting them anyday.

Click to expand...


And you want me to believe that you have actually used your skills in self defense? This is an arrogent and inexperienced statement. This makes me see your mentallity, and honestly, I can see why you can't take what I say to heart, but rather write it off.




Originally posted by PAUL 
Also...understand that when I am talking about the dangers of a knife attacker, I am not boasting my own abilities. Give me 15 minutes to train anyone, and we'll see the outcome against you, or the highest ranking priest from fuk m upp temple. You'll be suprised to find the outcome. I am not saying that your instructors would be helpless, but I am saying that I believe that you'll be suprised that their standard of error...in other words I'll bet that at least 50% of the time your "Masters" are going to get diced by the untrained person in the process of their defense. Its just the way life is.

Click to expand...


That is probably one of the most disrespectful and plain offensive thing I have read on these forums. I now understand your position, and I see your "experience".  
I post on this forum to have respectful and mature discussions, and this is exactly what you are not doing.




Originally posted by PAUL 
Anyways, I don't mean to write you off, but I don't think I will be able to believe what you say just from the internet. There aren't any sources you can point to to support your arguement (not your fault, but this is just the way it is), yet there are plenty to support mine. So, I'd have to "see to believe".

Click to expand...


Its a pretty big assumption to say I have no sources. You haven't listed any of your amazing sources either, so lets not jump to assumptions as we know what happens when you make an assumption right?

I think we have gone beyond a dicussion and you are now twisting around what I've said to make me sound uncredable. I don't really want to keep this going, so if we have nothing further to say respectfully, then lets end it now.

7sm*


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## Rich Parsons

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
*
Rich Parsons
Assistant Administrator
*


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## Cruentus

Mods: I am not angry or attampting to break the rules in this thread. If I have or do cross the line, please PM me so I can redirect my responses. It isn't worth getting in trouble over this conversation...thanks.


7sm: Here are a couble of points to address your response.

#1. What I say that is so "different" from your experience is that I am saying that a barely trained person with a knife can prevent a trained person, like myself, yourself, your teachers, my teachers, etc., from closing on them (due to the nature of the blade and the fact that all they have to do is touch you with it to damage you), while cutting away at them in the process much easier then a trained person can close the gap and defend from the knife; thus making the odds in favor of the knife wielder regardless of training. You are saying that empty handed you can close on the knife player without difficulty because of your extensive training. I am saying your wrong, and you can't. The odds just aren't in your favor. You can disagree with me if you'd like, but most people who train realistic knife tactics will disagree with you as well. Don't worry, at the end of my post I'll provide you with some sources.

#2. I am not really saying anything towards my "extensive experience" I am just stating that most of what you say in regards to empty hand vs. knife doesn't coincide with my 19 years of experience. By stating the "19 years" you are at least given a point of reference, so you know that I am not someone who has trained a few month and who is just trolling for trouble. I am just being honest by saying that my experience doesn't coincide with yours. I think that you will find that many others agree with me as well.

#3. I stated my "stats" (Weight, hieght, bench press, etc.) so that you could see that I am larger, stronger, and trained to hit harder then the average male. This is a fact, not an embelishment. Yet, even as such, I don't feel that my ability to "crush someones knee," (or anything of the like) is foulproof, or even completely reliable. And yes, I know that there are many different ways to kick a knee. And I don't need to talk to an expert in the medical field; I know that a crushing blow to the side or even back of the knee that causes the knee to collapse into a hard surface (like pavement) could be devistating to the point of broken bones, torn ligaments, muscles, and tendons. We are talking about that knee not working right again if done in such a devistating manner. However, you say that you can do this the same way someone says that they can "knock the person out in one punch". You seem to have forgotten that the human body can move around, and the knee can resist being stomped into the pavement. Thinking that you will do this in one easy kick is as arrogent and unrealistic as thinking that you'll knock him out in 1 punch, or that your'll collapse his throat in one strike. To think such a thing seems arrogent and niave to me.

#4. Yes, I was suggesting fighting full contact (something that a MMArtist who competes is used to) and allowing knee kicks. Know why? Because a. There are many MMArtists who would be crazy enough to spar you like that, and would WANT TO spar you if you told them about the poweress of your knee kicks, and b. despite what you think, I'd say you have only a small percent chance of doing any damage to his knee before he takes you down. If what I think is true, then what do you think a knife person will do to you before your able to get near his knee?

Now if you want to do a safer experiment, do what I have done. Find a powerful kicker. Put on a knee pad so the impact of his heel won't damage your bone. Get in a bent kneed stance...as if your were fighting, and let the person stand on the side of your knee. If your resisting, you will find that it won't collapse. Next. Have the person start with light kicks, gradually increasing the strength until he can deliver full out blows. What you'll find with this excersise is 2 very important things. A. It hurts to get kicked in the knee, so there is no doubt that this is a good place to aim in a fight. B. If your resisting, your knee isn't being "crushed into the pavement" as the martial arts myth would claim. The fact is, you could probably continue to fight after being kicked (even without a knee pad) unless he kicked you "just right". 

Bottom line here is that your ability to crush a knee, throat, limb, or whatever is NOT a sure thing; and if you think it is, your being niave and arrogent, in my opinion. The ability for a knife to cut flesh IS a sure thing. This puts the odds in favor of the knife wielder, regardless of training. To put it in idiot terms knife guy makes contact with knife blade to your flesh, you are garunteed to be cut. You make contact with your foot on knife guys knee...no garuntees! Got it?

#5. You said I am being disrespectful. Which part? The part about fuk m upp temple? Or the part about me training an amature for 15 minutes with a blade, and that amature being able cut up you or your instructors more times then not with a blade if they are going empty hand? 

If it was my little joke about the temple, well, relax. It was a tounge and cheek comment, not to be confused with me disrespecting your linage or art...that is not my intent. I'll apoligize if this was your problem.

However, if you thought the part about me saying that I feel that I could train someone with average athletic abilities for 15 minutes to dice you or your instructors up if they go empty handed more often then not, then that is your problem not mine. This is just the way I feel about the circumstance...and I am not changing my mind until I am someone proves me wrong. I don't mean it as disrespect; that's just the way I feel.

#6. I am not twisting anything around to try to make you sound uncredable. You continue to say more and more things that I believe is completely incorrect. I have maintained this position since the beginning of the topic. I have not changed my mind, backtracked, mislead, or "twisted" anything here. Anything that "sounds" uncredable or "retarded" only sounds that way because of the way your said it.

#7 Speaking of uncredable statements, I am noticing that you have contradicted yourself more then once in both this thread, and the previous thread on the subject. An example would be when you said in your last post, "I have never said anything about shattering anything on contact..." Yet, when you say things like, "My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice." Followed up later with this claim, "The head trauma surgeon for Mother Francis Hospital Services happens to work out with us here at the school and he seems to think about 8 or 10 pounds of pressure appropriately placed would not only crush someone's attack, but possible sever the arteries around the knee causing massive internal bleed out and death within 8 or 10 hours if not treated." It sure sounds like you are contradicting yourself, doesn't it? Or how about, " I don't believe that my method of "sparring" [training, etc.] supercedes anyone's." Yet previously you stated, "Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training." This sure sounds like your contradicting yourself again.

These seemingly contradictory statements is what's hurting your credability, not me. This has been very problamatic in my attempt to buy what you are saying.

I'll post this for now, but these are the pretty negative aspects of the things I have to say, making this post more of a rebuttle to what you have said rather then an informative post. I have more to say, but I will post seperately so that MT members can seperate my informative post from my rebuttle to you.

On that note, I am just going to be franks to say that it would appear that, at least with this topic, that you are way out of your element. If I were you I'd back it up, do more research, and come up with a more informed opinion rather then trying to back up possible mistakes in what you have said. I am sure this sounds arrogent as hell for me to say this, but this is just what I think needs to be done. I've done it before myself. People will only respect you more for it.

PAUL


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## Cruentus

The idea that, "Our system is taught to strike continiously until our opponent is down" has been before by advocates of fighting a knife fighter empty handed (both here and elsewhere) when confronted with the idea that their 1 strike is not a sure thing.

What they are forgetting is the fact that "time" is not in your favor if you are empty hand vs. knife. Fighting someone with a knife is like playing russian ruelette(sp?); it is only a matter of time before you are cut or killed. So, the longer the situation lasts, the more likely it is for the empty hand fighter to be cut up and/or killed. Here are your options, in order of preference, when you face a knife empty handed (assuming the attacker is determined to kill you). No matter what you study, this is all you got:

#1. Run. By far the best option, and prefered if you are able too. You have the best chance of survival if you can run.

#2. Do something right away that will disable the knife. An immediate disarm of the knife, an immediate interception and control of the knife hand, or an immediate attack resulting in the attacker being completely immobilized would be an example. The problem with this is you can't screw this up at all; if you do, your chances of being cut to pieces rise dramatically. Furthermore, this requires a committed attack; the less committed and telegraphed, the less likely your chances of pulling this off. And finally, to do this option requires an extreme amount of proficiency on your part.

The biggest problem with this is that no matter how much you have trained, a sharp blade will always cut your flesh on contact, but your technique will not always work on contact. He has a sure thing in his hand, where as your technique is neer a sure thing. This is how the odds are always against you, no matter how trained you are.

#3. Dodge and evade until you can run or grab something to aid you in your defense. This is preferable if you are not trained well, and you can't run. It is also your only option if #2 fails (and you can't run). You can always try #2 again, but remember that your chances of being cut are greater with each failed attempt, and they weren't in your favor to begin with. Problem with this is that once again, the longer your in the situation, the greater your chances of being cut. Furthermore, he can close on you faster then you can retreat just like he can win a running race against you if you run backwards while he runs forwards. Also, action is faster then reaction. Another disadvantage is that if you are able to pick something up, chances are it won't be lethal enough to stop him, thus prolonging the incident and greatening your odds of being cut.

This solution is extremely problamatic, but must be used if it is all that is available to you.

#4 Spaz out, rush in on him, and barade him with attacks while you are trying to control his knife or subdue him. This isn't quite the same as #2. #2 means your first move immediately subdues his ability to cut you; This is more of a rush where you are trying to overwhelm him with attacks.  If you are trained, this may be a better option for you then #3, but this one is even more problamatic then the first three options. Even if you are trained well, you have put yourself in a spot where you will either overcome your attacker, or die trying, period. With #2 your attacker is subdued, with #3 you are at least buying yourself time for an escape, or for an object in your hand that will put the odds in your favor. By rushing in with every technique you know to stop him, you have no chance of surviving if you are not successful. Even if you are successful, you will most likely take serious wounds in the process. 

This is not recomended, and definatily not as a 1st choice. If you try to run and are unsucessful, you can try options 2-4. If you try option #2, you may be able to try another option if your not dead. If you try #3, you may be able to survive with only non fatal cuts as you buy yourself time to run or subdue. With this option, option 4, failure assures your death. Retreating to another option is not really possible with this choice. 

#5. Stand there and let your attacker kill you. This is an option, but it is not a good choice for anyone.

Sources:

Now someone might like some sources to back up my arguements here. If you are skeptical, then provide some sources supporting your arguements.

1. Fairborns "Get Tough" vividly expresses the dangers of empty hand vs. knife.

2. Other WWII combatives by Faiborn, Sykes, or Applegate are good sources.

3. Works by Marc Macyoung are provided in a previous link above on this thread. The language is a little salty, but it is well researched.

4. "Put em' Down, Take em Out: knife fighting from Falson Prison by Don Pentacost.

5. "Attack Proof" by John Perkins has some stuff on knife supporting what I say.

6. "Surviving edges weapons" is a training video for LEO by Calibre Press, vividly illustrating the dangers of the blade.

7. Paul Vunak expresses well the dangers of empty hand vs. knife in his works.

8. Works by James Keating I believe also expresses well the dangers of the blade.

9. I also believe Author Sammy Franco has addressed the fantasy of "knife fighting".

10. Knife Fighting: A practical Course" by Micheal Janich.

11.Hock Hockiems SFC webite.

12. Shizz...you need more? Check out qualified Modern Arnis, Sayok Kali, Pekiti Tersia, or any credable knife system out there...they will support the idea that going against a knife empty handed is suicidal at best.

The sources, everywhere you look, are in favor of the idea that it isn't wise to go into a knife fight empty handed (hell...it isn't wise to go into a knife fight at all!). You will be hard pressed to find any credable information to the contrary!  :soapbox: 

:asian:


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Mods: I am not angry or attampting to break the rules in this thread. If I have or do cross the line, please PM me so I can redirect my responses. It isn't worth getting in trouble over this conversation...thanks.*



Being completely disrespectful does break the rules of this thread, and also offends another MAist and human beings, which is not consistent with martial arts in general.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *You are saying that empty handed you can close on the knife player without difficulty because of your extensive training. I am saying your wrong, and you can't. The odds just aren't in your favor. You can disagree with me if you'd like, but most people who train realistic knife tactics will disagree with you as well. Don't worry, at the end of my post I'll provide you with some sources.*



Actually, I never said anything about "without difficulty" in any of my responses about closing the gap. Odds mean nothing in a fight. I'm sorry if you think differently, we differ there. Lets leave it at that.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I am just being honest by saying that my experience doesn't coincide with yours. I think that you will find that many others agree with me as well.*



Thats acceptable, I'm sure I can find many who would agree with mine as well. That means nothing in your mentality, because no one of any experience or "fame" in anything other than your art or knife arts, has any legitimacy with you. We've seen that by your posts using " " around the word master talking about those who are considered masters in Kung Fu. I would suggest you meeting just one of them. Seeing them in action, you would see some legitimacy.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *This is a fact, not an embelishment. Yet, even as such, I don't feel that my ability to "crush someones knee," (or anything of the like) is foulproof, or even completely reliable. And yes, I know that there are many different ways to kick a knee. And I don't need to talk to an expert in the medical field; I know that a crushing blow to the side or even back of the knee that causes the knee to collapse into a hard surface (like pavement) could be devistating to the point of broken bones, torn ligaments, muscles, and tendons. We are talking about that knee not working right again if done in such a devistating manner. However, you say that you can do this the same way someone says that they can "knock the person out in one punch". You seem to have forgotten that the human body can move around, and the knee can resist being stomped into the pavement. Thinking that you will do this in one easy kick is as arrogent and unrealistic as thinking that you'll knock him out in 1 punch, or that your'll collapse his throat in one strike. To think such a thing seems arrogent and niave to me.*



I assume you mean foolproof, and I never said anything close to any of my techniques being foolproof. Thats two misquotes already. From what you are saying, I think you do need to speak with a professional in the medial field. I am one, and I can tell you have some unrealistic expectations of your body. Lets go to the third misquote. I never said anything about me being able to do this in one kick, two kicks, or even 143564 kicks. Your attacking me personally because of my beliefs. That is very typical of someone who is lying or unbelievable. I'm not saying you are, I'm just saying lets stick to facts, and the discussion. I never said I could do it in one easy kick. That makes four misquotes. What I did say was in the mantis system we keep going until it is over. That may mean 432453 kicks, but the kicks wont stop until its over.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Yes, I was suggesting fighting full contact (something that a MMArtist who competes is used to) and allowing knee kicks. Know why? Because a. There are many MMArtists who would be crazy enough to spar you like that, and would WANT TO spar you if you told them about the poweress of your knee kicks, and b. despite what you think, I'd say you have only a small percent chance of doing any damage to his knee before he takes you down. If what I think is true, then what do you think a knife person will do to you before your able to get near his knee?*



Thats just not smart. Full contact is fine, I do that allot. Do you allow elbow breaks, and eyes gouges when you fight full contact? I would assume, since your reading this, that you don't.  I also never said I had a prowess for knee kicks. You made this about a knee kick. There are a million techniques for defending yourself against an armed assailant, or an unarmed one. A knee kick would be just one of those. Misquote #5. We can differ on the percentage of actual knee kicks that work, but I suggest you training just a little bit under a legitimate mantis sifu and you will learn the effectiveness of knee kicks.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now if you want to do a safer experiment, do what I have done. Find a powerful kicker. Put on a knee pad so the impact of his heel won't damage your bone. Get in a bent kneed stance...as if your were fighting, and let the person stand on the side of your knee. If your resisting, you will find that it won't collapse. Next. Have the person start with light kicks, gradually increasing the strength until he can deliver full out blows. What you'll find with this excersise is 2 very important things. A. It hurts to get kicked in the knee, so there is no doubt that this is a good place to aim in a fight. B. If your resisting, your knee isn't being "crushed into the pavement" as the martial arts myth would claim. The fact is, you could probably continue to fight after being kicked (even without a knee pad) unless he kicked you "just right". *



This is the stuff that proliferates false beliefs. I can focus on my knee and sit there ready for you to kick it and probably withstand any kick. In a fight, where you are overextended and not expecting a knee kick because someone's fist is also in your throat or eye, a good kick to the knee is a different story.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Bottom line here is that your ability to crush a knee, throat, limb, or whatever is NOT a sure thing; and if you think it is, your being niave and arrogent, in my opinion. The ability for a knife to cut flesh IS a sure thing. This puts the odds in favor of the knife wielder, regardless of training. To put it in idiot terms knife guy makes contact with knife blade to your flesh, you are garunteed to be cut. You make contact with your foot on knife guys knee...no garuntees! Got it?*



I got it, you like to misquote. That makes #6. I never said anything I have ever done or will do is a sure thing. The ability for a knife to cut flesh is a sure thing, the ability for you to use a knife to cut someone else's flesh is certainly not a sure thing. I understand that a technique is not a sure thing, but then nothing in a fight is a sure thing, that is a fact.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *You said I am being disrespectful. Which part? The part about fuk m upp temple? Or the part about me training an amature for 15 minutes with a blade, and that amature being able cut up you or your instructors more times then not with a blade if they are going empty hand?
> 
> If it was my little joke about the temple, well, relax. It was a tounge and cheek comment, not to be confused with me disrespecting your linage or art...that is not my intent. I'll apoligize if this was your problem.
> 
> However, if you thought the part about me saying that I feel that I could train someone with average athletic abilities for 15 minutes to dice you or your instructors up if they go empty handed more often then not, then that is your problem not mine. This is just the way I feel about the circumstance...and I am not changing my mind until I am someone proves me wrong. I don't mean it as disrespect; that's just the way I feel.*



I think your comment about the temple, your usage of " " around the word master and your general disrespect for anything you don't believe, is offensive and goes against this thread and martial arts in general. Its ok though, I'm not mad at you. I understand where your coming from. Its hard to believe something and hear that someone else's beliefs differently and not try to destroy their credibility. For you to say you could train someone for 15 minutes and they would "dice up" anyone you have never met is not only immature, but inexperienced. To presume to know that you could beat anyone at anytime, is not realistic.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I am not twisting anything around to try to make you sound uncredable. You continue to say more and more things that I believe is completely incorrect. I have maintained this position since the beginning of the topic. I have not changed my mind, backtracked, mislead, or "twisted" anything here. Anything that "sounds" uncredable or "retarded" only sounds that way because of the way your said it.*



I'm not saying anything you think is completely incorrect, I'm only saying that you are refusing to look at the total picture of some things you blindly believe in. About not twisting things, aren't we on misquote #6 already?



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Speaking of uncredable statements, I am noticing that you have contradicted yourself more then once in both this thread, and the previous thread on the subject. An example would be when you said in your last post, "I have never said anything about shattering anything on contact..." Yet, when you say things like, "My point is that even if you cut me three times with it in the process, I still would have shattered a knee and crushed a windpipe. I just dont see it being a weapon of choice." Followed up later with this claim, "The head trauma surgeon for Mother Francis Hospital Services happens to work out with us here at the school and he seems to think about 8 or 10 pounds of pressure appropriately placed would not only crush someone's attack, but possible sever the arteries around the knee causing massive internal bleed out and death within 8 or 10 hours if not treated." It sure sounds like you are contradicting yourself, doesn't it? Or how about, " I don't believe that my method of "sparring" [training, etc.] supercedes anyone's." Yet previously you stated, "Thats ok, I have seen other schools train, from TKD, CMA, FMA, BJJ, MMA, and from watching them I am more convinced that my training is one of the most realistic I have come across. I'm not talking about "trading notes" but realistic hardcore training." This sure sounds like your contradicting yourself again.*



Those are absolutely not contradictory. Saying a knee could be shattered, is not saying how it would be shattered. A knee can break in a variety of ways, not only by shattering on contact. 
Saying my training is one of the most realistic I have seen, in no way says my method of sparring is better than anyone's. Your reading my word already assuming you know what I'm trying to say. I say, just open your mind a little and read it all before making assumptions as to what I'm saying.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *On that note, I am just going to be franks to say that it would appear that, at least with this topic, that you are way out of your element. If I were you I'd back it up, do more research, and come up with a more informed opinion rather then trying to back up possible mistakes in what you have said. I am sure this sounds arrogent as hell for me to say this, but this is just what I think needs to be done. I've done it before myself. People will only respect you more for it.*



You can believe I'm out of my element, thats ok, I can handle that. How do you suggest I "back it up"? I have done research on this topic quite completely, you are the one refusing to talk to any professionals about this issue. I did talk to my Sifu, my sihings, and my sifu spoke with his Sifu. That is doing research to have a more informed opinion. Oh, I forgot, you would "dice them all up" so their opinion or Sigung Fogg's 43 years of experience mean nothing.

I suggest we end this discussion, because this is getting off topic into personal attacks, and that doesn't help anyone.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *What they are forgetting is the fact that "time" is not in your favor if you are empty hand vs. knife. Fighting someone with a knife is like playing russian ruelette(sp?); it is only a matter of time before you are cut or killed. So, the longer the situation lasts, the more likely it is for the empty hand fighter to be cut up and/or killed. *



don't look now, but you just agreed with me!! That is exactly right. I in no way am suggesting fighting a guy with a knife, I'm just giving my opinion on the situation if it were upon me.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *The sources, everywhere you look, are in favor of the idea that it isn't wise to go into a knife fight empty handed (hell...it isn't wise to go into a knife fight at all!). You will be hard pressed to find any credable information to the contrary!  :soapbox:
> *



There we go again!! I completely agree with you.

7sm


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## Cruentus

#1. I haven't misquoted you at all. I only "quoted" things that you have actually said. I didn't "QUOTE" words like foolproof implying that you actually said that. You did, however, IMPLY certian things with the manner in which you said certian things. I have been responding to that, and quite effectively. 

I haven't misquoted you. If you ment to say something differently then the way it sounded, then just say so. Accusing me of "misquoting you" when it isn't true isn't really helping your case much.

#2. So you took certian things as insulting. This is not my problem. I have not called you a name, or slammed on your style, or even your skill, or your sifu's. I have stated my opinions, which you disagree on. One of those happends to be my believe that yes, I can train person with average athletic ability for about 15 minutes to be able to cut up your teacher with 43 years of experience over 50% of the time (provided he goes empty hand vs. knife). This isn't a slam on your sifu's skill level; It only illustrates the dangers of a blade.

Now...how do I know this is true? Well, I have had people take me up on the offer before. Granted, they weren't grandmasters, but never-the-less, I haven't been proven wrong. I know "grandmasters" who would not/will not take me up on the offer. Some of these are/have been my teachers. They all say the same thing: basically that there is no point because going against a knife empty handed means "you will be cut". THis is just a fact of life that hasn't been proven wrong to me yet. With all do respect, if your teachers or any teacher can prove it wrong, then Ill train in that style.

#3 I have met real "masters" in Kung Fu. I had a friend who trained in China, Gueghou (I can't spell it, but it is by Hunan) province. His teacher was noted as being the most skilled in the province. I met him; his skill far superceeded mine, especially at the time.We played around a little. He was awesome. Yet, He even knew that you are at an extreme disadvantage empty hand against a knife wielding attacker.

#4. I understand the "effectiveness of knee kicks." That is not the point. The point is that blade is garunteed to cut if contacting flesh. You knee kick is not garunteed to be effective when contacting on the knee. This is a fact.

#5. Sources: What your Sifu's Sifu said is not really a source that I, or MT members can observe. If you can find where someone has written something credable on the subject that supports your beliefs that you could be at an advantage empty hand vs. knife. I think you'll be hard pressed to find anything supporting what you say.

#6. I am not going to sit here and say "gee, maybe we are saying the same thing after all..." and go along my merry little way. You've opened this can of worms, causing me to waste my time on the subject because I don't want the uninformed reader to be mislead by statements that I feel are innacurate or misleading. We may agree on some points, but we have certainly disagreed on the idea that going against a knife empty handed is a good idea even if you are trained, and we certainly have different ideas on the dangers of a knife wielding attacker.

One of us is correct, and one of us isn't. Why don't you print the entire thread, and give it to your Sifu to read...then see what he says? Check out some sources by the authors I have given. Talk to law enforcement or military people who have had experiences. Talk to credable knife or self defense instructors. Do some experiments on your own. Or how about take a day break, and reread this thread later?

Perhaps when you have done one or more of these things, you'll be able to admit that perhaps you have said some things that have been not worded well, misleading perhaps, or parhaps outright wrong? I don't know...but I think you will be seen as the better man for it.

PAUL


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *#1. I haven't misquoted you at all. I only "quoted" things that you have actually said. I didn't "QUOTE" words like foolproof implying that you actually said that. You did, however, IMPLY certian things with the manner in which you said certian things. I have been responding to that, and quite effectively.
> 
> I haven't misquoted you. If you ment to say something differently then the way it sounded, then just say so. Accusing me of "misquoting you" when it isn't true isn't really helping your case much.*



Lets take a look back.....


> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *You are saying that empty handed you can close on the knife player without difficulty because of your extensive training*





> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Thinking that you will do this in one easy kick is as arrogent and unrealistic as thinking that you'll knock him out in 1 punch, or that your'll collapse his throat in one strike.*



Thats two examples of when you misquoted me, I'm to tired to sift through and find the rest. Lets let that argument die shall we?



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *So you took certian things as insulting. This is not my problem. I have not called you a name, or slammed on your style, or even your skill, or your sifu's. I have stated my opinions, which you disagree on. One of those happends to be my believe that yes, I can train person with average athletic ability for about 15 minutes to be able to cut up your teacher with 43 years of experience over 50% of the time (provided he goes empty hand vs. knife). This isn't a slam on your sifu's skill level; It only illustrates the dangers of a blade.*



To say that you can teach an average person in 15 minutes to beat anyone of 42 years of experience is not only insulting it is downright arrogant. I suggest you do some research on whom I'm talking about before you claim such arogent claims. 



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Now...how do I know this is true? Well, I have had people take me up on the offer before. Granted, they weren't grandmasters, but never-the-less, I haven't been proven wrong. I know "grandmasters" who would not/will not take me up on the offer. Some of these are/have been my teachers. They all say the same thing: basically that there is no point because going against a knife empty handed means "you will be cut". THis is just a fact of life that hasn't been proven wrong to me yet. With all do respect, if your teachers or any teacher can prove it wrong, then Ill train in that style.*



Your in such a frenzy to prove yourself right, your still missing things I have said. I said myself a knife fight means you will most likely be cut. I never said anything about defending against a knife and not getting cut, its almost a given. If you would switch your style because of being beaten, implies that you have never been beaten, and that implies you have never truly fought. I'm not saying you haven't, I'm just saying your kind of getting overboard on this thread. 



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I have met real "masters" in Kung Fu. I had a friend who trained in China, Gueghou (I can't spell it, but it is by Hunan) province. His teacher was noted as being the most skilled in the province. I met him; his skill far superceeded mine, especially at the time.We played around a little. He was awesome. Yet, He even knew that you are at an extreme disadvantage empty hand against a knife wielding attacker.*



I'm getting tired of restating everything I have allready said. I was the first to say your at an extreme disadvantage goign against a knife. Proving that will only prove me to be right. Sure you want to do that? Would you care to name any of these Masters you trained with?



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I am not going to sit here and say "gee, maybe we are saying the same thing after all..." and go along my merry little way. You've opened this can of worms, causing me to waste my time on the subject because I don't want the uninformed reader to be mislead by statements that I feel are innacurate or misleading. We may agree on some points, but we have certainly disagreed on the idea that going against a knife empty handed is a good idea even if you are trained, and we certainly have different ideas on the dangers of a knife wielding attacker.*



Calm down man, its not going to kill you to agree with me on some points. Now I'm causing you to waste your time...thats a good one.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *One of us is correct, and one of us isn't. Why don't you print the entire thread, and give it to your Sifu to read...then see what he says? Check out some sources by the authors I have given. Talk to law enforcement or military people who have had experiences. Talk to credable knife or self defense instructors. Do some experiments on your own. Or how about take a day break, and reread this thread later?
> 
> Perhaps when you have done one or more of these things, you'll be able to admit that perhaps you have said some things that have been not worded well, misleading perhaps, or parhaps outright wrong? I don't know...but I think you will be seen as the better man for it.*



I can see how you look at things, and thats cool, I just wish you could be more open minded and accept more things that you do not understand, it will help your training I promise.
I have spoken with law enforcement officials, does the FBI Agent who works out at my school count? Your telling me to ask all these people about things, and yet refuse to ask anyone about your opinion. I can see who is really searching for true training here. Once again you make these large assumptions that I have not done the things you are "helping" me with by advising. I have done them. But I understand you cant let yourself believe that. 
I don't claim to never type something not worded well, as I hope no one really does on here, as this medium is extremely hard to portray a true feeling or belief on.

I am done arguing back and forth about who is better or right. I did enjoy the rousing conversation and discussion back when it was still about the topic however. Lets put this behind us, and either continue the discussion in an adult manner or lets get a mod to lock the thread and be done with it. No one is being helped by us trying to tear eacch other down. As fellow MAist, we should be helping each other, not trying to hurt each other.

7sm


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## arnisador

There was definitely some good info. in these threads, but I wonder if it wouldn't be better once again to start a new thread, focused on a narrow area of this discussion.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

> We have all dodged punches before, why is dodging a knife attack any different?



Oh, its not the dodging that's the problem.  Its the getting hit.

All of us here have been hit and taken it.  Some of us have taken and survived some fairly heavy shots. 

_One can't do that with a knife._ 

You can not take a shot with a knife...unless you're wearing plate or chain mail armor.  The stuff is expensive...and heavy.  And it simply doesn't go with ANYTHING in a contemporary wardrobe!



> I still hold the view that if someone comes at me with a boxcutter that has a what 1" blade at best, I would be able to defend myself quite well.



I'm in no position to question your skills.  Know, however, that a one inch box cutter can access your carotid artery, your eye, your femoral artery, your ulnar nerve, your radial nerve (both, if cut, cause paralysis of the hand/arm), and it can easily sever the belly of most of the muscle groups in your thighs, arms, and trunk.  It can disembowel you, leaving your intestines dangling down your knees like a skirt.



> Why if the knife is so dangerous, does it lose a bit of impossibility when faced with another knife?



When you have a knife as well as your attacker, your potential lethality has been increased enormously from when you were empty handed.  He can still win if he has greater skill, attributes, luck, whatever.  In truth, you might lose miserably whether you have a knife or not.  Your odds have increased, though, if you have such a weapon and intend to use it.  A mistimed kick or strike that glances off or fails to deliver sufficient power does little more than irritate.  A mistimed cut that lands lightly can sever a tendon, ending the altercation.



> I still don't see why me picking up a knife is going to change all this evidence of how dangerous a knife is.



It makes his knife no less dangerous.  It makes you MUCH more dangerous.  If you get the incapacitating shot on him first, you might win.  This is assuming you haven't been fatally cut.

Now...much of this parrots what Paul and others have said.  I'm throwing in with it just to back them up.

My blade of choice?  If I had a choice?  Maybe my Strider Valkyrie.  It has a nine inch blade.  Maybe my Battle Sickle...it has a curved blade  and is huge.  I have a stainless steel bolo that is surgically sharp and about two feet long.  I have a Ka-Bar.  Any of these will take a hand off at the wrist.  I'd MUCH rather have them than nothing.  It in no way makes his blade less deadly...but it makes me far more lethal.  

Although the Glock 27 is easier to carry than those.  Today I was carrying it AND two Benchmade Griptilians.  One for each pocket.



> Steve Lamade wrote:  BTW, in an informal survey of 1024 gladiators in the coliseum circa 256 A.D., 0.0% chose to enter the arena without their weapon. This survey had a margin of error of 0.5%.



LOL!  Can I use that for one of my signatures?

HA!

Regards,

Steve


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## KumaSan

I know I haven't posted here in ages, but I put something towards the bottom of  page one that wasn't even glanced at. Please look at it and give me some validation.

Thanks,
Chris


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *Oh, its not the dodging that's the problem.  Its the getting hit.
> 
> All of us here have been hit and taken it.  Some of us have taken and survived some fairly heavy shots.
> 
> One can't do that with a knife.
> 
> *



Thats a little strange out of context. I was refering to the ability of someone to backup and avoid being cut. You can back up and put space between you and not get cut.



> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *I'm in no position to question your skills.  Know, however, that a one inch box cutter can access your carotid artery, your eye, your femoral artery, your ulnar nerve, your radial nerve (both, if cut, cause paralysis of the hand/arm), and it can easily sever the belly of most of the muscle groups in your thighs, arms, and trunk.  It can disembowel you, leaving your intestines dangling down your knees like a skirt.*



Nice visual. This is all stuff I said as well.



> _Originally posted by hardheadjarhead _
> *It makes his knife no less dangerous.  It makes you MUCH more dangerous.  If you get the incapacitating shot on him first, you might win.  This is assuming you haven't been fatally cut.
> And a incapacitating first shot on him with an empty hand technique is not as incapacitating?
> 
> Now...much of this parrots what Paul and others have said.  I'm throwing in with it just to back them up.*



Yes, it does. I'm not sure what else we can talk about that differs from the actual topic. I'm not saying I can take anyone out, or suggesting anyone in the world ever fighting a knife weilding attacker. I'm just simply stating facts that it is possible to defend yourself and live against a knife.

7sm


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## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *Thats a little strange out of context. I was refering to the ability of someone to backup and avoid being cut. You can back up and put space between you and not get cut.
> *



Yes, you can back up to create space in an attempt to avoid a cut...to a point.

The problem is that your attacker will be able to charge forward faster than you can back up.   Furthermore, the knife wielder only needs to cover just enough distance for the blade to touch flesh, unlike an unarmed assailant who not only needs to ensure that his weapons can reach you, but that they can penetrate to do enough damage.

Cthulhu


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Yes, you can back up to create space in an attempt to avoid a cut...to a point.
> 
> The problem is that your attacker will be able to charge forward faster than you can back up.   Furthermore, the knife wielder only needs to cover just enough distance for the blade to touch flesh, unlike an unarmed assailant who not only needs to ensure that his weapons can reach you, but that they can penetrate to do enough damage.
> 
> Cthulhu *



Very true, however, backwards is not the only way you can yield. I'm not trying to say its not riscky, however, you can yield in many directions to avoid getting cut, or hit. Backing up is good, then if the opponent is "charging in" you can also move to the side, and almost even behind the attacker. It isn't a "sure thing" so no one think I'm saying that, but it is possible to do.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe that there is not possible defense against a knife. There are other threads where this is very prominent as well. 
So I thought I would do some research on it....
If it is true that there is no defense against a knife, these must be illegitimate. I don't have personal experience with all these, but a few I do.

http://www.turtlepress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=256 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897500504/qid=1073058653/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4587285-5726307?v=glance&s=books

http://www.itatkd.com/v-132.html 

http://www.dvdsportszone.com/product_info.php?products_id=379&osCsid=3ce2d1ac3066e13a2eb4261303f06b9d 

http://www.fastknife.com/Martial_Arts_Info/article4.htm 

If any of these are legitamate, then there is afterall, a possible action that can successfully protect against a knife attack.

7sm


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## Cruentus

1.	Once again, I have not misquoted you. When I have said things like so what you are saying is this., or you are saying. , I am paraphrasing what you have said in my own words to better understand your points. This is common to any good conversation, debate, or argument. Now, if I have misunderstood what you have said, then you can say something like No you misunderstood me. I am not saying bla bla bla, as you have thought. I am trying to say blee bla blee. If I have misunderstood what you have said on certain points, then say so, and re-explain your position. But, dont say I misquoted you. I havent.

2.	You confuse a lot of what I say with the idea that I am being arrogant, or that this is somehow about me being beaten or being undefeated in a fight. This debate is not about my fighting or teaching skills. If your sifu and sifus sifu is as qualified as you say, I am sure that they have more knowledge then I do. This isnt a my art can beat your art or my teacher can beat your teacher conversation. I dont think that you are turning it into this, but I think that you think that I am trying to make it a my art against yours type of argument. I am not. 

Im having to repeat myself here, but all I am doing is illustrating the dangers of the knife. Thats all. This has nothing to do with my skill.

3.	It seems as if you have been retracting a lot of what you have said in the beginning. You said 





> I was the first to say your at an extreme disadvantage going against a knife.


 But the thing is, you werent. Your first comment was this: 





> The attackers durin the 9/11 attacks were brandishing "boxcutters" I would imagine similar to the ones mentioned above. How much damage could you inflict with one of those before someone takes you down. Its not like you could even really hit any main arteries or anything with the small blade. What would make a whole plane full of people sit in thier seats and not try to take them down if all they had were those knives?
> I know the one plane did "revolt" but I just dont see anyone doing any amount of damage to me with one of those before I've broken a knee or two, am I being optomistic? I don't think so.



Your first quote, and your many back-up comments is hardly condusive of admitting that you are at an extreme disadvantage against a knife attacker. If you feel that you are at a disadvantage, then greatwe agree. Problem is, thats not what you said at first, and you have yet to retract your statements that appear to contradict what you are now saying.

So, I think that is a big part of why we are argueing, and why I have a hard time letting it go. You have said some things that may have been said in haste, or that may have been wrong. This is not a problem, we all do that from time to time. The problem occurs when you refuse to retract your statement for fear of being wrong. Thats what I see happening. You didnt say that the knife was dangerous at first. You instead expressed that you didnt see how it could do much damage before you took your opponent out, so to speak. You may have miscommunicated what you were trying to say, but instead of rephrasing or retracting what you said, you have been struggling to back up your statements. It would be much easier for us to communicate if you would just say that hey maybe I miscommunicated what I was trying to say.here is what I am really saying.

4.	Since you seem to have changed your position regarding certain things, Lets address what we agree on. We agree on the idea that the knife is a dangerous tool. We agree that the knife attacker is at an advantage because of the knife. We both believe that empty hand vs. knife is not impossible, although it might be difficult.

Now lets examine where we disagree: You believe that empty hand knife defense is much more of a possibility then I do. You feel that you would be better off not using a weapon at all against a knife, where I believe that NO person should go into a knife fight empty handed unless they have too.

I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. I have given you some sources that express that empty hand vs. knife is never a good idea. I urge you to take a look at them. If you have any sources that express the opposite that I can look at, post them here, and I would be happy to take a look.

Respectfully,

PAUL
:asian:


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe that there is not possible defense against a knife. There are other threads where this is very prominent as well.
> So I thought I would do some research on it....
> If it is true that there is no defense against a knife, these must be illegitimate. I don't have personal experience with all these, but a few I do.
> 
> http://www.turtlepress.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=256
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0897500504/qid=1073058653/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4587285-5726307?v=glance&s=books
> 
> http://www.itatkd.com/v-132.html
> 
> http://www.dvdsportszone.com/product_info.php?products_id=379&osCsid=3ce2d1ac3066e13a2eb4261303f06b9d
> 
> http://www.fastknife.com/Martial_Arts_Info/article4.htm
> 
> If any of these are legitamate, then there is afterall, a possible action that can successfully protect against a knife attack.
> 
> 7sm *



Sorry...you posted your sources before I posted. You beat me to the punch!  

I just wanted to reinerate that I don't believe that empty hand vs. knife defense is an impossability. I know that some people say that, but I feel that is irrational. I just think that it is an IMPROBABILITY (not probable that you'll get out of the circumstance unscathed), no matter what you train in, an no matter how experienced you are. 

People teach empty hand vs. knife and that doesn't make them illigitamite; it's WHAT and HOW they are teaching it that could make or break their legitamicy. I LOVE traininig empty hand vs. knife myself. But, I realize that getting out of an empty hand vs. knife situation un-damaged is not a probable thing. It's having at least that much wisdom that will hopefully keep me alive. 

Anyways, thanks for the sources. I'll take a look at them and lend my thoughts.

:asian:


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## Cruentus

O.K....I've looked at your sources, and I'll try to be "nice" here.

I'll state again, that just because people teach empty hand vs. knife, that doesn't mean that they (the teachers) believe that going into a knife fight empty handed is a good idea. If you are forced into a circumstance where you are weaponless against a knife, then you have to know how to deal with it.

There are some who are saying that empty hand vs. knife is an impossability. You are right, credable instructors teaching empty hand vs. knife would shoot that arguement down.

I, and many of the people here, however, are not saying that defending yourself against a knife is impossible. We are just saying that it is improbable that you'll come out unscathed, and very dangerous.

You've expressed that you would rather go into a knife fight empty handed because that is what you train the most in. I have expressed that going into a knife fight empty handed is NEVER a good idea, regardless of how you train. The sources I have brought forth I have personally viewed, and I can vouch that they support what I am saying. Many of the sources that you put forth may slam down the idea that knife defense is "impossible," but they actually support what I am saying as well (If possable, don't go into a knife fight empty handed; know the Krav Maga one supports this, at least).

Now, if you have an external source that we can view that supports your view; expressing that empty hand vs. knife could be prefered over grabbing a weapon yourself if that is what you are used to training in, I would be happy to look it over.

Thanks,

PAUL   :asian:


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *2.	You confuse a lot of what I say with the idea that I am being arrogant, or that this is somehow about me being beaten or being undefeated in a fight. This debate is not about my fighting or teaching skills. If your sifu and sifus sifu is as qualified as you say, I am sure that they have more knowledge then I do. This isnt a my art can beat your art or my teacher can beat your teacher conversation. I dont think that you are turning it into this, but I think that you think that I am trying to make it a my art against yours type of argument. I am not. *



This seems a little contradictory to statements such as....


> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Hell, if its all true, I'd quite my style(s) and move to Texas to train.*





> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *As to "crushing someones attack"...let me say that I am 5'7 1/2", yet I weight 230 (I am cutting wieght though right now, so I'll probably weigh 215 in a few months); I squat over 600lbs. and bench around 400....and thats reps. I have been told that I hit like a "ton of bricks" by professional fighters.*





> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Give me 15 minutes to train anyone, and we'll see the outcome against you, or the highest ranking priest from fuk m upp temple. You'll be suprised to find the outcome. I am not saying that your instructors would be helpless, but I am saying that I believe that you'll be suprised that their standard of error...in other words I'll bet that at least 50% of the time your "Masters" are going to get diced by the untrained person in the process of their defense. Its just the way life is.
> *





> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I have said this before in othet threads, but I have a sort of "open challange" going here for anyone who is very confident with they're empty hand vs. knife skills. Basically, you try to take MY knife away, and I try to attack and kill you. I give my personal garuntee that more times then not you will be cut several times and fatally...and I don't care who you are or what you've trained in.*



It seems this is very much about *your* abilities.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *3.	It seems as if you have been retracting a lot of what you have said in the beginning. *



Actually Paul, I haven't retracted anything I have said. I stand behind what I said at the very beginning, and what I am saying now. They are in no way contradictory. Your confusing my statement about being able to defend against a knife as a declaration of its inadequacy. That's not what I'm saying, and never has been. 
Yes, I do think the boxcutter is an inadequate weapon of choice for a bladed weapon, and if your saying you would choose it over any of your knifes you train with,  you would be lying and all of us know it.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *So, I think that is a big part of why we are argueing, and why I have a hard time letting it go. You have said some things that may have been said in haste, or that may have been wrong. This is not a problem, we all do that from time to time. The problem occurs when you refuse to retract your statement for fear of being wrong. Thats what I see happening. You didnt say that the knife was dangerous at first. You instead expressed that you didnt see how it could do much damage before you took your opponent out, so to speak. You may have miscommunicated what you were trying to say, but instead of rephrasing or retracting what you said, you have been struggling to back up your statements. It would be much easier for us to communicate if you would just say that hey maybe I miscommunicated what I was trying to say.here is what I am really saying.*



Ok, here is an example of when I feel you misquoted me, however, I will now say, I meant blee blee blee. 
I never said the knife was not dangerous, your confusing my statements about a 1/2" boxcutter, with those of a fighting knife. Two different situations if you ask me. Neither of them being not dangerous Paul, both dangerous, both different. 
I don't feel I have been struggling at all to "back up" anything, I just posted several sources for self defense against a knife, check them out.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *4.	Since you seem to have changed your position regarding certain things, Lets address what we agree on. We agree on the idea that the knife is a dangerous tool. We agree that the knife attacker is at an advantage because of the knife. We both believe that empty hand vs. knife is not impossible, although it might be difficult.
> 
> Now lets examine where we disagree: You believe that empty hand knife defense is much more of a possibility then I do. You feel that you would be better off not using a weapon at all against a knife, where I believe that NO person should go into a knife fight empty handed unless they have too.
> 
> I guess we can agree to disagree and move on. I have given you some sources that express that empty hand vs. knife is never a good idea. I urge you to take a look at them. If you have any sources that express the opposite that I can look at, post them here, and I would be happy to take a look.*



Once again Paul, I haven't changed my position on anything. I have posted trying to let you see I'm not trying to say that there is no danger, or that you should get into any type of altercation, but that is not changing my views, that is explaining them more precisly.
You have changed your statements however because you originally said it was impossible to defend agaisnt a knife, even posting links to articles that supported your beliefs, now your saying its possible just not probable. 

Your statemtent...


> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I believe that NO person should go into a knife fight empty handed unless they have too.*


Is exactly what I have been saying this entire thread and the last. Your not saying anything I haven't allready said. You seem to think I am encouraging a knife fight, I'm saying run as fast as you can ie...


> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> *My first reaction is to run, or cry like a little baby girl and maybe not even have to fight.*


I'm not saying get into an altercation unless completely neccesary. I'm just saying if that occurs, and I'm empty handed, I would still be able to defend myself, your saying I couldn't. For example....


> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *But for you, I would be happy to TAKE THE CHALLANGE EVEN FURTHER. Since it is said that I have considerable training with the knife, its almost not fair to do the challange with me. So, I would propose that we could even do it with a determined attacker with little or no martial arts experience.*



This is where are disagreement and argument is coming from, because the only thing we truly disagree on is 1) it is extremely possible to defend yourself agaisnt a knife empty handed. 2) I'm a lyer and nothing I say can be believed.

Sources posted.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

This is where the argument is getting out of hand.
I'm not suggesting going into a knife fight empty handed. I'm suggesting not going into a knife fight.

7sm


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *But, I realize that getting out of an empty hand vs. knife situation un-damaged is not a probable thing. It's having at least that much wisdom that will hopefully keep me alive.
> *



Why is this an issue, we agree here.

7sm


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## Cruentus

1. I can see how you would have thought that I was trying to fluff my abilities. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I had stated certain things about my abilities and experiences because my abilities and experience is my point of reference for my beliefs. However, my point wasn't "look how sweet I am." My point was "look how dangerous the knife is".

2. I believe you have either changed your views mid-thread, or at the very least miss-stated your views in the beginning. You obviously disagree. Moving on...

3. You'll never find a quote here that says I said that it is impossible to defend against a knife. Everything I have said points towards its improbability, nots its impossibility.

4. 


> Why is this an issue, we agree here.





> I'm not suggesting going into a knife fight empty handed. I'm suggesting not going into a knife fight.



Really. Well thats news to me....good news! Great you agree with me! Glad we cleared at least that much up!


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## Phil Elmore

Weapons are tools, not magic wands.  All have their advantages and disadvantages, their limitations and their ideal applications.  Dealing with them is dangerous by definition, because they are weapons -- but it is not _necessarily_ impossible.


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## 7starmantis

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Really. Well thats news to me....good news! Great you agree with me! Glad we cleared at least that much up!  *



That was cleared up on the first thread....you must have missed it. I've been saying that all along. 



> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *Weapons are tools, not magic wands. All have their advantages and disadvantages, their limitations and their ideal applications. Dealing with them is dangerous by definition, because they are weapons -- but it is not necessarily impossible.*



Very well said. It is true, weapons are a great tool. I'm not trying to imply not using weapons. I train very hard in weapon usage, so if I made that point, I most certainly didn't mean to. I'm just trying to show that empty hand defense can be devistating as well. My statement about prefering empty hand is still what I believe, however I want to clarify it just a bit. In a real self defense situation my first reaction is to end the fight ASAP, if that includes running over the other guy in a car, that is the first thing I will do. My point, which maybe I didn't make clear, was that after the attempt to avoid a physical confrontation fails, empty hand is not so useless as sometimes believed.

7sm


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## arnisador

http://www.fastknife.com/Martial_Arts_Info/article4.htm

Notice, this is an exaggerated, karate-punhc-style step-through attack. The attacker ends with his weight set in a way that limits his mobility.

Look at the second picture. The guy with the knife stands there and gets hit. Someone with some training would do something. Looking at it, I might:

1.) Step forward on a 45 degree angle with my left foot, keeping low.

2.) Use my left hand to check his body (his right side) or his right arm.

3.) Cut across his belly with my knife.

Remember, we've all done the exercise where we hold our arm straight out, make a fist, top of the fist pointing straight up, and someone pushed it to the side. It's hard to push it to the outside but easy to push it to the inside. So, it'll be hard for him to stop me from moving my blade in the direction I've indicated.

I've made an assumption here about how he's blocking/holding the hand because I can't make it out--the picture is too dark. If he's doing something different than what I think, I might use my left hand to free my right hand while stepping off to the right on a 45 degree angle with my right foot. I might cut along his belly with a backhanded slash along the way, or stab to his side/back after the step.

Yes, it's possible to defend against the knife fighter who fights like he wasn't holding a knife. But it's exceedingly difficult to defend against the experienced knife fighter, or the committed knife fighter who charges in and is willing to take a hit in order to be able to give a stab.


----------



## hardheadjarhead

> Very true, however, backwards is not the only way you can yield. I'm not trying to say its not riscky, however, you can yield in many directions to avoid getting cut, or hit. Backing up is good, then if the opponent is "charging in" you can also move to the side, and almost even behind the attacker. It isn't a "sure thing" so no one think I'm saying that, but it is possible to do.



Then what I said wasn't out of context, and I never said it was impossible to do.  The point is this...you WILL get hit/cut.  Cuts, versus hits, are far more damaging.

As far as movement, you're preaching to the choir here.  Alot of these guys do Filipino Martial Arts (Paul does), and they hit footwork from day one.



> It never ceases to amaze me how many people firmly believe that there is not possible defense against a knife.



I don't believe it is impossible.  Even the Sayoc guys train for that eventuality.  It certainly isn't preferable.

Paul makes it clear that he thinks empty handed defense is possible, but not probable.  



> I'm not suggesting going into a knife fight empty handed. I'm suggesting not going into a knife fight.



As far as I'm concerned, I never "go" into a knife fight.  If he draws a knife...I run...unless flight is impossible.  If flight is impossible, I draw my gun/knife.  If the latter, it is then, I suppose, a knife fight.  I do not go into it willingly or with any relish, knowing that I'll most certainly get hurt.  "The winner drips, the loser gushes." goes the saying.

Empty hand is the LAST option.  

Now, 7 Star, you mentioned that you had aknowledged the lethal potential of a knife.  But you diminish its potentiality by dissing a box cutter with a one inch blade.  This is why I pointed out, very graphically, what a one inch blade can do.  One doesn't need a foot long knife to kill or disable.  The motor nerves of the arm are within easy reach of a one inch blade.

If you want to go empty handed into the night, do so.  Paul will not, I suspect, nor will most of the FMA's on this board.  But please understand that one of the reasons they don't advocate empty hand versus knife is that they TRAIN these techniques and actively spar with them.  

This training makes one keenly aware of several things:  The guy with the knife has a brutal advantage.  It sucks to be the guy without the knife.  The empty hand techniques are far more difficult to pull off than a simple slash that any thug can do.  The simple slash causes more damage than any empty hand technique.

It was pointed out somewhat tongue in cheek that when surveyed gladiators opted not to go into the arena unarmed.  They also, I wager, would have elected to wear the best armor available.  There is a reason the sword and spear evolved into being the king and queen of battle for millenia (until the advent of the gun).   Note that the Spartans didn't show up to Thermopolae empty handed.  Neither did the Persians.



> I most certainly didn't mean to. I'm just trying to show that empty hand defense can be devistating as well.


 
Few would argue that they can't be if lucky enough to pull off the techniques...but the argument here is who would have the odds of being more devastating, the knifer or the bare handed fighter.  History and common sense show the latter would likely die pretty quickly, even if he had skill.

A blade in the hands of an untrained fighter with committed intent often makes up for any disparity of skill advantage the empty handed martial artist may possess.

This is safely testable using Lameco training "knives" or their home made equivalent).  Try it sometime.  Find a bunch of FMA's and ask to spar them empty handed versus their knife.  Now, granted, you might be reluctant to whack them or lock them...but they can wear pads and protection I suppose.  Locking them, I suspect, will be difficult...but they can always "tap" if you're lucky enough to get a hold on a limb.  

There are plenty of Pekiti Tirsia guys down there in Texas.  You might contact them and ask them if they'd be up to such an experiment.

If you lose, however, you'd be losing to trained knifers.  You might be able to find some untrained thugs that would spar for a case of beer or something.  Make sure they sign a waiver.  I'd also make sure they had empty pockets when they walk in the door.  Wouldn't you just hate for one of them to pull out a live blade and ruin the experiment?  Or worse, validate it?



> Kumasan wrote:  I know I haven't posted here in ages, but I put something towards the bottom of page one that wasn't even glanced at. Please look at it and give me some validation.



Sorry, Chris...I don't see the post.  I've looked twice.  Are you sure you posted it to this thread?

Regards,


Steve


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by KumaSan _
> *I know I haven't posted here in ages, but I put something towards the bottom of  page one that wasn't even glanced at. Please look at it and give me some validation.
> 
> Thanks,
> Chris *



Sorry...I looked for your post too and couldn't find it.


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## lhommedieu

Page 3.



> Back to the central question, I might as well drop by and add my two cents. For me, personally, it's part of the mindset. If the bad guy has a knife, then me drawing my blade is my mental declaration of the Cold War era nuclear war protocol. Mutually Assured Destruction. Either we both die, or only he dies. His life is forfeit.
> 
> Also, a lot of people around here probably (if not, forgive me) train the common FMA style defang the snake methods (or behead and disembowel the snake for the Sayoc people). While these techniques can be effective empty handed, they have a higher percentage of working with a weapon in hand.



With respect to your first point, I'm reminded of the saying "While you're in the kitchen, I'll be gettin' a sandwich."  Knife fights are no fun, and, as 7sm has correctly pointed out, worth avoiding at all costs.  (It's worth noting that 99% if us could probably avoid them 99% of the time, given a decent upbringing and some basic common sense; most of us are training for that 0.1% "unknown" factor.)

It's also interesting to note that Tuhun William McGrath writes in Inside Kung Fu that "after 24 years in the pekiti-tirsia system I would draw my gun over my knife should someone pull a knife on me with harmful intent."

This article is archived at http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3077.  It also contains some very interesting insights with respect to the differences between Filipino "knife" techniques and the way that Filipino arts are taught in some schools in the United States.  His main thesis is that small knife technique is different from large knife technique, i.e., _the weapon dictates the technque._  There's a lot of meat in this article.

With respect to your second point, I've been taught merely to cut what's closest.  Often this is the weapon hand as it attacks, so the "defanging the snake" part is a riposte of sorts.   Other times there may be targets of opportunity which are impossible to define ahead of time, but which footwork and good body mechanics offer a better chance at getting.

I want to offer the caveat here that I do not consider myself proficient at fighting with a knife:  this is armchair theory.  

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## hardheadjarhead

> Mutually Assured Destruction. Either we both die, or only he dies. His life is forfeit.



Excellent attitude...and very necessary.



> "after 24 years in the pekiti-tirsia system I would draw my gun over my knife should someone pull a knife on me with harmful intent."



So would I, I think.  My gun doesn't go everywhere with me, however.  I'm not licensed to carry, say, in Delaware or Illinois.  I can carry knives in those states (I think).  McGrath makes a good point, however...you use the weapon that is more effective.  This is a no brainer.  It does, however, lead to discussions as to WHAT gun, WHAT caliber, WHAT ammunition, etc.  That is best put in the gun portion of the forum.

McGrath's clearly  understands the severity of the situation regarding knife on knife.  

He also understands that not everything is a "one shot stop" which needs to be kept in mind.  People can be stabbed in the heart and survive.  They can have eighty percent of their bicep cut through and still have some use of the arm.  Note I say "can" and not "will".  We remember anomalies far better than we remember routine events.


Regards,


Steve


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## KumaSan

Thanks guys. And thanks for that link l'hommediu. I also agree with Tuhon McGrath. Unfortunately, I got rid of my pistol when I first moved overseas in '95, and haven't got around to acquiring another since I've been back. My pocket knife, on the other hand, is usually with me for utility purposes.

Another good link I came across which deals with realistic effects of wounds is here. It actually refers to fencing, but it has some good info nonetheless.


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## hardheadjarhead

Interesting article...thanks Kumasan.


Regards,


Steve Scott


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## Makalakumu

I have had the pleasure of attending a long and intensive seminar on small knives with Tuhon McGrath.  He played Conan the Barbarian music when we did our partner drills!  That seminar was very good source of information and it was a real eye opener for me, who was just starting FMA at the time.


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## Wes Tasker

upnorthkyosa-

Ahhhhh..........the music.  When I first attended one of Tuhon's seminars I thought it was great that we were warming up to Conan and Gladiator soundtrack music.  The only problem is when it gets late in the day and he switches CD's and your exhausted (both mentally and physically) and the hawaiin music starts........

hardheadjarhead-

Regarding what gun, caliber etc......  That's one of the great things about Tuhon Bill.  He's very well versed on handgun use - being a court officer and a law-enforcement trainer in firearms etc.

-wes tasker


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## lhommedieu

> Ahhhhh..........the music.  When I first attended one of Tuhon's seminars I thought it was great that we were warming up to Conan and Gladiator soundtrack music.  The only problem is when it gets late in the day and he switches CD's and your exhausted (both mentally and physically) and the hawaiin music starts........



Time for the "Flight of the Valkyries..." 

Best,

Steve


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## hardheadjarhead

> Regarding what gun, caliber etc...... That's one of the great things about Tuhon Bill. He's very well versed on handgun use - being a court officer and a law-enforcement trainer in firearms etc.



I'm sure he is.  

I was only pointing out another area of conflict in the agonistic arts that keeps popping up from time to time.  People argue this point with almost religious passion.

As far as music, how about "The Bridge at Khazad-Dum" from the first LOTR movie?

Regards

Steve


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Page 3.
> 
> It's also interesting to note that Tuhun William McGrath writes in Inside Kung Fu that "after 24 years in the pekiti-tirsia system I would draw my gun over my knife should someone pull a knife on me with harmful intent."
> 
> *



Really? I'd rather just go empty handed because, you know, I train more with my empty hand then I do with firearms. :rofl: 

I am obviously kidding. I think that is a great article, and I really like the cases that he brings forth. They really demonstrate how dangerous a weapon wielding attacker can be. A punch that would make a heavy bag fold, or knock a person out in the ring may fail on the pumped up drugged out knife wielding assailent. How many times will he cut me before I put him down, if I am even able to? Heck, I may even have a knife myself...but how many times will he be able to cut me after I cut his throat?

These are all dangers that need to be taken into consideration.

 :asian:


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## parkerkarate

The K-bar (combat knife) has to be my favorite knife of choice.


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## Cruentus

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> The K-bar (combat knife) has to be my favorite knife of choice.




Hey Parker,

I love the Ka-Bar myself.

I customized my Tanto tip Ka-Bar to make it a little more field useful. I grinded the other end and sharpened it, so now its double bladed. I also sawed and sanded the back part of the guard so the back is flat. It's probably my favorite combat knife since my modifications

Which version of the Ka-Bar do you prefer?

PAUL


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## parkerkarate

I prefer one that I am not to afraid to cut myself with. LOL. I do not know what kind I go. My girlfreind got it for me. BUt it is not as customized as yours. Yours sounds pretty nice, I would just be to afraid of cutting myself with something like that. I only started learning how to use it last October. I was taught br Dr. Gyi, I can not remember how to spell his first name. I hope that answered your question somewhat.


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## Cruentus

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> I prefer one that I am not to afraid to cut myself with. LOL. I do not know what kind I go. My girlfreind got it for me. BUt it is not as customized as yours. Yours sounds pretty nice, I would just be to afraid of cutting myself with something like that. I only started learning how to use it last October. I was taught br Dr. Gyi, I can not remember how to spell his first name. I hope that answered your question somewhat.



That would be Dr. Maung Gyi of American Bando. I like Gyi. I've seen him on average of twice a year for the past 9 years or so. I am very familiar with his knife system. Where did you see him in october? Did you go to his camp in athens?

The Bando knife system is one of the most realistic and practical systems around. Your in good hands!

 :ultracool 
PAUL


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## parkerkarate

My instructor is Mr. Joe Palanzo, who is the president of te WKKA. I went to the annual WKKA camp. And took both his Ka-Bar and Kukri seminar. And no I didn't go to that other camp in Athens.


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