# Judo... will be?



## Manny

I think is time to put TKD in a vault and move on. Afther so many years of TKD training I just don't feel happy and want something refreshing, I really enjoy martial arts still, and I want to keep learning new stuff, martial arts are some kind of passion.

So I chat with a judo sensei and I think learning judo can be fun, yes I know the work outs will be killer and only hope I could be smart enough not to over do them and burn myself down.

Basically I want to do some exrecise and learn judo for self defense, I will need a judogi but don't have BIG bucks to invest in, the judo fee is $400.00 Mexican Pesos abiut U$D25.00 per month.

Any advise or thought you can share and waht kind of judogi should I buy one that's not too heavy, decent quality and price.

El Manny


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## The Great Gigsy

Manny, I purchased my gi through century. The pants are fairly like light weight but the top will be of heavy construction. As for the cost I believe it was around 75 dollars. If I can give you an advice in regards to doing judo, it's to learn how to fall correctly. Good luck hope you enjoy judo


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## Hanzou

Excellent choice Manny! Judo will compliment your TKD training amazingly well. I would have personally recommended Bjj over Judo due to the potential of injury being much higher in Judo, but if you're up to the punishment, you've made a great decision!

As to gis, I would talk to your instructor and see what they recommend. If s/he is open to a variety of different gis you can always just order one online. As Gigsy said, they're going to be heavier by default. Far heavier than the uniform you wear in TKD due to the constant lapel and sleeve pulling.

Keep us informed about how your progression in Judo goes. I'm very interested in hearing about your transition from TKD to Judo.


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## Manny

Hanzou said:


> Excellent choice Manny! Judo will compliment your TKD training amazingly well. I would have personally recommended Bjj over Judo due to the potential of injury being much higher in Judo, but if you're up to the punishment, you've made a great decision!
> 
> As to gis, I would talk to your instructor and see what they recommend. If s/he is open to a variety of different gis you can always just order one online. As Gigsy said, they're going to be heavier by default. Far heavier than the uniform you wear in TKD due to the constant lapel and sleeve pulling.
> 
> Keep us informed about how your progression in Judo goes. I'm very interested in hearing about your transition from TKD to Judo.



Hello and thank you and every one who encourages me to start this new journey, let me tell you I am not newcomer in Judo, when I was a 7 years old boy (way back in the mid 70's) my dad wanting to wake up the little boy's mom put me in judo classes, sadly I quit pretty early and never got even a yellow belt, then when I was 10 my dad took me to anothe judo dojang but again in those days I wasn't as enthusiastic as I was when a teen. Something I learnt form those days where the sweeps lika dashi-baray and oso-togari and some ipon seoinage that I use a lot when teaching self defense at the dojang.

Do you think that judo can be harsh compared to BJJ? Why? I know as a general rule that the A,B,C of judo are the ukemis tht's the name? and it's mandatory to learn to fall and to roll, I know a little of these, not much but more than  the average person. What do you think I have to take care of judo? I don't wana overburn my self or hurt myself, I just want to enjoy judo and hope it can help me to understand the wrestling instead the kicking or punching.

El Manny


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## Tony Dismukes

Manny said:


> Hello and thank you and every one who encourages me to start this new journey, let me tell you I am not newcomer in Judo, when I was a 7 years old boy (way back in the mid 70's) my dad wanting to wake up the little boy's mom put me in judo classes, sadly I quit pretty early and never got even a yellow belt, then when I was 10 my dad took me to anothe judo dojang but again in those days I wasn't as enthusiastic as I was when a teen. Something I learnt form those days where the sweeps lika dashi-baray and oso-togari and some ipon seoinage that I use a lot when teaching self defense at the dojang.
> 
> Do you think that judo can be harsh compared to BJJ? Why? I know as a general rule that the A,B,C of judo are the ukemis tht's the name? and it's mandatory to learn to fall and to roll, I know a little of these, not much but more than  the average person. What do you think I have to take care of judo? I don't wana overburn my self or hurt myself, I just want to enjoy judo and hope it can help me to understand the wrestling instead the kicking or punching.
> 
> El Manny


A lot depends on the individual judo or BJJ school. On average, being thrown repeatedly is more likely than groundwork to lead to wear and tear on the body. Since judo schools typically spend more on throws (and are more likely to focus on the big throws) than BJJ schools, they can be rougher on your body. There are other factors to consider, though. The club atmosphere can make a difference. A really hardcore, competitive BJJ school might be rougher than a really mellow, safety-conscious judo dojo.


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## Hanzou

Manny said:


> Hello and thank you and every one who encourages me to start this new journey, let me tell you I am not newcomer in Judo, when I was a 7 years old boy (way back in the mid 70's) my dad wanting to wake up the little boy's mom put me in judo classes, sadly I quit pretty early and never got even a yellow belt, then when I was 10 my dad took me to anothe judo dojang but again in those days I wasn't as enthusiastic as I was when a teen. Something I learnt form those days where the sweeps lika dashi-baray and oso-togari and some ipon seoinage that I use a lot when teaching self defense at the dojang.
> 
> Do you think that judo can be harsh compared to BJJ? Why? I know as a general rule that the A,B,C of judo are the ukemis tht's the name? and it's mandatory to learn to fall and to roll, I know a little of these, not much but more than  the average person. What do you think I have to take care of judo? I don't wana overburn my self or hurt myself, I just want to enjoy judo and hope it can help me to understand the wrestling instead the kicking or punching.
> 
> El Manny



Tony covered most of this, and it comes down to being thrown repeatedly onto a semi-hard surface over a period of time. Granted, the mats absorb a lot of that impact (I personally prefer crash pads for lower belts), but it still can be pretty stressful on the body. Which is why some older Judoka tend to migrate to Bjj when they get too old for the impact level of Judo. There's also the wear and tear on your hands from constant gripping of the rough gi material, but that exists in (gi) Bjj as well.

Your mileage will vary, but Bjj does tend to be less hard on the body than Judo, mainly because of newaza, and the adoption of wrestling style takedowns over the higher impact Judo throws. Part of the reason I switched from Judo to Bjj was because of the constant heavy impact I was experiencing. But again, your mileage will vary.

With that said, you can't go wrong practicing Judo.


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## elder999

Tony Dismukes said:


> A lot depends on the individual judo or BJJ school. On average, being thrown repeatedly is more likely than groundwork to lead to wear and tear on the body. Since judo schools typically spend more on throws (and are more likely to focus on the big throws) than BJJ schools, they can be rougher on your body. There are other factors to consider, though. The club atmosphere can make a difference. A really hardcore, competitive BJJ school might be rougher than a really mellow, safety-conscious judo dojo.


 
You might find a combination school, where the instructors are ranked in BJJ and judo, and they compete in both.....at your age, you should ease into to taking throws, though, and really work on your breakfalls  a lot-well beyond the point where they're "comfortable," or second nature, before taking a lot of them in practice.I know, it seems like a paradox-how do you work on your falls without being thrown? Trust me on this though, as you're nearing the age when most longtime practitioners start limiting the number of falls they take in a class, and just starting at your age, you'll be more prone to injury from the occasional (and inevitable) incorrectly received fall....go slow, though, and you should be fine-I kind of specialize in training the old and infirm-my oldest student was 87 years old, and he managed a couple of falls a class......for a while, anyway.


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## Manny

Oh boy... what I see lines above is something to be aware of, some years back I look at judo clases at a University faclity and recall one of my MA budies told me about the injures I could have practicing Judo with the young studs, in that time I pased away Judo and took Kenpo Karate lessons, I will go to this judo class (adult class) and see first some things: a) It is really an adult class? I mean people of around my age or just kids, b) is the intensity of the class designed to teach mature men the art of judo or is the class designed to develop competidors, c) does the sensei take care of the adult men or not.  In TKD I've got hard and solid blows but that was when I was younger and recovery was fast then, today a dislocate shoulder or problems with my lower back are an issue to me.

I wish I colud find a judo class for adults not competitors, but I think this dojo focus in kids and youn people with sport intentions (tournamentes) but I will have to go and see for myself.

El Manny


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## Hanzou

You live in Veracruz? What's wrong with this place;

Jiu Jitsu Renzo Gracie Veracruz


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## elder999

Hanzou said:


> You live in Veracruz? What's wrong with this place;
> 
> Jiu Jitsu Renzo Gracie Veracruz


 Good training from the guy who's name is on that, but he's kind of a jerk.




Don't train with jerks, or the jerks that they've trained.


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## Hanzou

Manny wouldn't be there to become beer buddies with Renzo Gracie. He'd be there to learn some great Jiujitsu.

Which he would, and then some.


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## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Manny wouldn't be there to become beer buddies with Renzo Gracie. He'd be there to learn some great Jiujitsu.
> 
> Which he would, and then some.


Hmmph.

I don't think you'd disagree with me if I said that people learning to carry firearms for self-defense learn proper rules of engagement.

I  think it's the same for martial arts-*any* of the-and  Renzo is apparently the kind of *jerk* who doesn't even know what they are.


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## Hanzou

Here's Shawn Williams, a Renzo Gracie black belt, and a Bjj innovator.






What a jerk.....


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## elder999

Hanzou said:


> Here's Shawn Williams, a Renzo Gracie black belt, and a Bjj innovator.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What a jerk.....


 
Hey, over the years I've had some instructors who were kind of edgy.

*I'm* downright sociopathic, myself, but I don't go chasing after trouble like Renzo did-and if and when I ever did, I didn't go bragging about it in a public forum, didn't own a school, and didn't have my name on other people's schools.

I also teach people the difference between self defense and chasing after trouble, and that the first (and sometimes *last*) self defense technique is to _run away._ Renzo Gracie-if his story is true-chased after those guys when he should have been running to safety, and he bragged about it.

You asked what was wrong with that place, and I said as much: _the *name* on the sign._ I don't care if the man himself has never even been there (actually, that would be worse!!)


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## drop bear

Manny said:


> Oh boy... what I see lines above is something to be aware of, some years back I look at judo clases at a University faclity and recall one of my MA budies told me about the injures I could have practicing Judo with the young studs, in that time I pased away Judo and took Kenpo Karate lessons, I will go to this judo class (adult class) and see first some things: a) It is really an adult class? I mean people of around my age or just kids, b) is the intensity of the class designed to teach mature men the art of judo or is the class designed to develop competidors, c) does the sensei take care of the adult men or not.  In TKD I've got hard and solid blows but that was when I was younger and recovery was fast then, today a dislocate shoulder or problems with my lower back are an issue to me.
> 
> I wish I colud find a judo class for adults not competitors, but I think this dojo focus in kids and youn people with sport intentions (tournamentes) but I will have to go and see for myself.
> 
> El Manny



Sport judo is fine because you actually have to get to a point where you throw a guy who dosent want to be thrown. And that is ultimately the essence of judo anyway.


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> Sport judo is fine because you actually have to get to a point where you throw a guy who dosent want to be thrown. And that is ultimately the essence of judo anyway.



Depends on how sport the Judo school is. If its too sport, they will actively omit certain moves, just like Bjj schools that are so sport that they ignore stand up almost entirely.


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## Tony Dismukes

elder999 said:


> Hmmph.
> 
> I don't think you'd disagree with me if I said that people learning to carry firearms for self-defense learn proper rules of engagement.
> 
> I  think it's the same for martial arts-*any* of the-and  Renzo is apparently the kind of *jerk* who doesn't even know what they are.


Renzo is actually one of the nicest, friendliest guys you could ever meet and a great coach.

That said, I would absolutely not suggest learning the rules of engagement from him. Renzo, like many of the other Gracies who grew up in Brazil, learned a mindset that is not at all about avoiding trouble or staying out of fights. Fortunately he does not seem to push that mindset on his students.


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## drop bear

elder999 said:


> Hey, over the years I've had some instructors who were kind of edgy.
> 
> *I'm* downright sociopathic, myself, but I don't go chasing after trouble like Renzo did-and if and when I ever did, I didn't go bragging about it in a public forum, didn't own a school, and didn't have my name on other people's schools.
> 
> I also teach people the difference between self defense and chasing after trouble, and that the first (and sometimes *last*) self defense technique is to _run away._ Renzo Gracie-if his story is true-chased after those guys when he should have been running to safety, and he bragged about it.
> 
> You asked what was wrong with that place, and I said as much: _the *name* on the sign._ I don't care if the man himself has never even been there (actually, that would be worse!!)



It's a Brazil thing.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> It's a Brazil thing.


No it's not.  And yes I'd been to Brazil.  In fact my unit in the Marine Corps spent several weeks training and living with the Brazilian Military.  They were no different then any other countries I've been to.  Perhaps it's a BJJ "thing" or a Gracie "thing"


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> No it's not.  And yes I'd been to Brazil.  In fact my unit in the Marine Corps spent several weeks training and living with the Brazilian Military.  They were no different then any other countries I've been to.  Perhaps it's a BJJ "thing" or a Gracie "thing"



Really? The guys from the Brazilian military wouldn,t chase down a mugger and choke him unconscious.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Really? The guys from the Brazilian military wouldn,t chase down a mugger and choke him unconscious.


No more or less then someone in the US military or some of the folks Tez hangs out with or the Korean Marines I trained or pretty much everywhere else I've been.  They are no "more" agressive or macho then anyone else.  They only time I hear "it's a Brazil thing"  is when BJJ people makes excuses for bad behavior.


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## Tony Dismukes

ballen0351 said:


> No it's not.  And yes I'd been to Brazil.  In fact my unit in the Marine Corps spent several weeks training and living with the Brazilian Military.  They were no different then any other countries I've been to.  Perhaps it's a BJJ "thing" or a Gracie "thing"


It's likely a Gracie thing. Quite a number of members of the family have a history of seeking out fights based on reasons that you or I would not consider to be valid justifications.


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## ballen0351

Tony Dismukes said:


> It's likely a Gracie thing. Quite a number of members of the family have a history of seeking out fights based on reasons that you or I would not consider to be valid justifications.


That's probably true.  Even in my job there are certain families when you see that last name we know when dealing with them it's going to be problems some families are just wired differently.  I see this it's a Brazil thing thrown around a lot and in my experience someone born in Brazil is no more likely to fight than anywhere else.  Id suspect if it were true it has to do more with the poverty where some of these guys grew up then the place of birth.


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## Hanzou

My reason for suggesting the Renzo school was to give Manny an alternative to Judo in case he felt the latter was too kid-oriented. 

I don't know much about Mario Delgado, the head instructor in Veracruz, but Renzo Gracie black belts tend to be very good all around, and have a good mix of takedowns and ground work.


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> No more or less then someone in the US military or some of the folks Tez hangs out with or the Korean Marines I trained or pretty much everywhere else I've been.  They are no "more" agressive or macho then anyone else.  They only time I hear "it's a Brazil thing"  is when BJJ people makes excuses for bad behavior.



I don't see how choking muggers unconscious is bad behaviour.

Mabye that is an American thing.


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## elder999

drop bear said:


> I don't see how choking muggers unconscious is bad behaviour.
> 
> Mabye that is an American thing.


 
It's not.

Tweeting the build up to it, and about how you're looking forward to it, and _chasing down one of the would-be muggers and choking him out_, though?

Not just "bad behavior." It's prosecutable.

His tweets, with the bolding added to show a lack of common sense, good judgement or avoidance tactics.
What he says at 4:59, btw, is comically ironic.

What he says at 3:53 and 5:03 is criminal.

3*:11 AM: 22nd street and 10th ave right now two guys following me, can’t help but have a big smile upon my face Im talking about a happy one 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 )))
3:12 AM: Waiting for them… Are they really thinking I’m drunk??? They have to be kidding. Hahahaha*
3:13 AM: 25th and 10ave 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 they are getting closer lol 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



3:16 AM: I just stop to take a pic, they pretend they are looking at the window, can’t lie… My blood runs in a different speed, man I miss Brazil
*3*:17 AM: JiuJitsu 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )) never leave home without it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




3*:18 AM: Please hold there for just a couple minutes 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 be right back*
3:23 AM: They are coming closer, asking for a cigaret 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 lol can’t help but have a smile in my face. I don’t smoke.* Pretend to wobble. They smile*
3:47 AM:* My hands hurt… Can’t help but look at him the other one took off running, not much of a friend. Chicken :-/ I can still see him, he* looks
3:49 AM: Back as he runs, no chance to catch him… *Even though I began to try to run after him, I realize How slow I was. love it :-///*
3:53 AM: This one asks me why did I do that, pretending to be stupid, *one little kick to the ribs makes him whine and apologize,* as I’m writing this.
3:55 AM: I ask him if he was planing to rob me, he says no. All he wanted was a cigarette, lol I can’t help but have a big smile upon my face, and ..
3:57 AM: The certainty that if it was an ordinary man he would be sad about his stolen goods. lovely **** cries like a ***** when the tide turns…
3:58 AM: *I can’t help but take a pic as his nose bleeds and he wines and asks why did I do that… Like he doesn’t know the reason…*
3:59 AM: My lovely hands hurt, hurt like hell…

4:06 AM: *Drove around two blocks… The other fellow disappear,* I’m heading home… *Angry for not finding the second one.* Guess no sleeping tonight
4:26 AM: I *knew it 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 yessss*
4:59 AM*: There is basic things like you don’t come back to where the problem was..* You just don’t, I knew he would, just going around the block would
5:01 AM: Be enough… Dumb f%#^* I just gave him the old style Raccoon, it has been a while since the last time I did.. Choke him out 3 times…*
5:03 AM:* And before he woke up I did hit each eye socket at least twice*, tomorrow he will wake up like a raccoon, and every time he woke up I was…
5:06 AM: Whispering at his ears.. That’s what death feels like it.. Don’t do that again. My lovely hand hurts, :-/ a lot
5:08 AM: Next time I will use only the elbows, damn I miss that feeling, sometimes I wonder if the easy life has been making me


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## drop bear

elder999 said:


> It's not.
> 
> Tweeting the build up to it, and about how you're looking forward to it, and _chasing down one of the would-be muggers and choking him out_, though?
> 
> Not just "bad behavior." It's prosecutable.
> 
> His tweets, with the bolding added to show a lack of common sense, good judgement or avoidance tactics.
> What he says at 4:59, btw, is comically ironic.
> 
> What he says at 3:53 and 5:03 is criminal.
> 
> 3*:11 AM: 22nd street and 10th ave right now two guys following me, can’t help but have a big smile upon my face Im talking about a happy one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )))
> 3:12 AM: Waiting for them… Are they really thinking I’m drunk??? They have to be kidding. Hahahaha*
> 3:13 AM: 25th and 10ave
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they are getting closer lol
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 3:16 AM: I just stop to take a pic, they pretend they are looking at the window, can’t lie… My blood runs in a different speed, man I miss Brazil
> *3*:17 AM: JiuJitsu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )) never leave home without it
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
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> 
> 3*:18 AM: Please hold there for just a couple minutes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> be right back*
> 3:23 AM: They are coming closer, asking for a cigaret
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> lol can’t help but have a smile in my face. I don’t smoke.* Pretend to wobble. They smile*
> 3:47 AM:* My hands hurt… Can’t help but look at him the other one took off running, not much of a friend. Chicken :-/ I can still see him, he* looks
> 3:49 AM: Back as he runs, no chance to catch him… *Even though I began to try to run after him, I realize How slow I was. **** it :-///*
> 3:53 AM: This one asks me why did I do that, pretending to be stupid, *one little kick to the ribs makes him whine and apologize,* as I’m writing this.
> 3:55 AM: I ask him if he was planing to rob me, he says no. All he wanted was a cigarette, lol I can’t help but have a big smile upon my face, and ..
> 3:57 AM: The certainty that if it was an ordinary man he would be sad about his stolen goods. ******* **** cries like a ***** when the tide turns…
> 3:58 AM: *I can’t help but take a pic as his nose bleeds and he wines and asks why did I do that… Like he doesn’t know the reason…*
> 3:59 AM: My ******* hands hurt, hurt like hell…
> 
> 4:06 AM: *Drove around two blocks… The other fellow disappear,* I’m heading home… *Angry for not finding the second one.* Guess no sleeping tonight
> 4:26 AM: I *knew it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> yessss*
> 4:59 AM*: There is basic things like you don’t come back to where the problem was..* You just don’t, I knew he would, just going around the block would
> 5:01 AM: Be enough… Dumb f%#^* I just gave him the old style Raccoon, it has been a while since the last time I did.. Choke him out 3 times…*
> 5:03 AM:* And before he woke up I did hit each eye socket at least twice*, tomorrow he will wake up like a raccoon, and every time he woke up I was…
> 5:06 AM: Whispering at his ears.. That’s what death feels like it.. Don’t do that again. My ******* hand hurts, :-/ a lot
> 5:08 AM: Next time I will use only the elbows, damn I miss that feeling, sometimes I wonder if the easy life has been making me



I don't understand your issue with that? There is low risk of him being prosecuted.


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## elder999

drop bear said:


> I don't understand your issue with that? There is low risk of him being prosecuted.


 
It wasn't good self-defense.

It wasn't even "self-defense."

As a teacher, his behavior is, presumably, emulated by his students.

He failed his students.

If his story is true, it's really that simple.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> I don't understand your issue with that? There is low risk of him being prosecuted.


If it really even happened he beat up a guy for asking for a cigarette.  Where is the proof they were robbing anyone?  There is none


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## drop bear

elder999 said:


> It wasn't good self-defense.
> 
> It wasn't even "self-defense."
> 
> As a teacher, his behavior is, presumably, emulated by his students.
> 
> He failed his students.
> 
> If his story is true, it's really that simple.



Didn't suggest it was self defence more of a karma action.


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## elder999

drop bear said:


> Didn't suggest it was self defence more of a karma action.



Oh, so Renzo Gracie is a card-carrying "Agent of K.A.R.M.A.?"

I don't think so.

Self-defense is all, especially in the U.S. Sure, he might have been "karmically justified," but that won't hold up in court-and might not even hold up in the court of public opinion.

He set a bad example for all of his students-and tainted their reputations by doing so.

It's really that simple.


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Didn't suggest it was self defence more of a CRIMINAL action.


Fixed it for you


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## drop bear

ballen0351 said:


> Fixed it for you



Did he get convicted?


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## drop bear

elder999 said:


> Oh, so Renzo Gracie is a card-carrying "Agent of K.A.R.M.A.?"
> 
> I don't think so.
> 
> Self-defense is all, especially in the U.S. Sure, he might have been "karmically justified," but that won't hold up in court-and might not even hold up in the court of public opinion.
> 
> He set a bad example for all of his students-and tainted their reputations by doing so.
> 
> It's really that simple.



Did he go to court?


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## elder999

drop bear said:


> Did he go to court?


 
Only the court of public opinion-because he bragged about it, *online*-took pictures and posted them. As much as said that he was baiting the guys (or waiting for them) instead of seeking help and/or safety. Hit one guy for asking for a cigarette - though I don't entirely disapprove of this, in particular, there were so many ways he could have not let things get to this point......and then he chased the other guy......and choked him out.....and punched him in both eyes while he was unconscious.....and bragged about it online.

Court or not, what part of the above shows good judgment?? Which part demonstrates the primary self-defense skills of avoidance or de-escalation? When he criminally stalked and assaulted the second guy, should he have bragged about it? People who display this sort of behavior are to be avoided as martial arts instructors, but especially as self-defense instructors. There's also the question of whether it actually occurred or not-if it didn't, this is also indicative of someone I would not recommend as an instructor, and, no matter how technically proficient-or morally upright-or both-I would not recommend one of his students, or anyone affiliated with  him-as in, having his name on a sign...I'd recommend that they seek instruction elsewhere, with the caveat that the above incident and * the headmaster's behaviors* were the *reason *why.  I've studied with people like that-today, it wouldn't matter much, but back then, when I was an impressionable young man, it did make a difference......I'd recommend against @Manny going there simply because what little I've gleaned from _his _character tells me he wouldn't be comfortable having his martial art served in such an atmosphere.


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## drop bear

elder999 said:


> Only the court of public opinion-because he bragged about it, *online*-took pictures and posted them. As much as said that he was baiting the guys (or waiting for them) instead of seeking help and/or safety. Hit one guy for asking for a cigarette - though I don't entirely disapprove of this, in particular, there were so many ways he could have not let things get to this point......and then he chased the other guy......and choked him out.....and punched him in both eyes while he was unconscious.....and bragged about it online.
> 
> Court or not, what part of the above shows good judgment?? Which part demonstrates the primary self-defense skills of avoidance or de-escalation? When he criminally stalked and assaulted the second guy, should he have bragged about it? People who display this sort of behavior are to be avoided as martial arts instructors, but especially as self-defense instructors. There's also the question of whether it actually occurred or not-if it didn't, this is also indicative of someone I would not recommend as an instructor, and, no matter how technically proficient-or morally upright-or both-I would not recommend one of his students, or anyone affiliated with  him-as in, having his name on a sign...I'd recommend that they seek instruction elsewhere, with the caveat that the above incident and * the headmaster's behavior* were the *reason *why.  I've studied with people like that-today, it wouldn't matter much, but back then, when I was an impressionable young man, it did make a difference......I'd recommend against @Manny going there simply because what little I've gleaned from _his _character tells me he wouldn't be comfortable having his martial art served in such an atmosphere.



Because you feel Manny is impressionable and will emulate that behaviour.

I think this is the thing about bouncing. You meet these martial artists in the real world and not on their pillar.

I prefer an instructor who cares vs one who doesn't even if caring leads him to hunt down muggers and re educate them. It dosent really seem he used violence with bad intentions. Irresponsibly certainly. But hey. If you have a talent then use it.

I have trained with Brazilians straight out of the favela and they love to fight. It is just their thing. But that dosent mean they are especially dangerous or immoral.

Unless you try to mug them. Then they will hunt you down to the ends of the earth and choke you out.


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## elder999

drop bear said:


> Because you feel Manny is impressionable and will emulate that behaviour.


 
No-because Manny strikes me as a morally upright and somewhat dogmatic fellow-he's a grown *** man, over 40, I think, and can certainly make up his mind about such things.

[Based on what I know, *I* wouldn't recommend anything associated with Renzo Gracie to him. Not all "Gracie jiu-jitsu," just that one, based on this instance, and a few others that were simply poor-form or sportsmanship.

I



drop bear said:


> I have trained with Brazilians straight out of the favela and they love to fight. It is just their thing. But that dosent mean they are especially dangerous or immoral.
> 
> Unless you try to mug them. Then they will hunt you down to the ends of the earth and choke you out.


 
So have I. I'm willing to concede that some of it may even have been cultural on his part. He's in the U.S., though, and he's not supposed to act that way, or train people to act that way.
*Full stop.*
(Simply cannot believe that I'm the one taking the higher moral ground here-talk about irony.... )


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## ballen0351

drop bear said:


> Did he get convicted?


What's that got to do with anything, he admitted to a crime.


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## The Great Gigsy

I'm sorry, but once he decided to look for the other guy he became the assilant.


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## Hanzou

Yet Renzo is still well-respected throughout the MA community, and his black belts and schools are some of the best around.

So this is much ado about nothing.


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## elder999

drop bear said:


> Did he go to court?





Hanzou said:


> Yet Renzo is still well-respected throughout the MA community, and his black belts and schools are some of the best around.
> 
> So this is much ado about nothing.


 
It's really not "nothing," and no question of his skills or skills as an instructor or the skills of his students who go on to be instructors or the skills of their  students-it's about character.

If you don't understand that, that's fine-I think @Manny does. If you wouldn't care about that, that's fine-I think Manny would.

To each his own-hell, I trained with a cold-blooded murderer.....


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## Tony Dismukes

elder999 said:


> It's really not "nothing," and no question of his skills or skills as an instructor or the skills of his students who go on to be instructors or the skills of their  students-it's about character.
> 
> If you don't understand that, that's fine-I think @Manny does. If you wouldn't care about that, that's fine-I think Manny would.
> 
> To each his own-hell, I trained with a cold-blooded murderer.....


I would absolutely not defend Renzo's behavior in this instance (or a few others that I am aware of). I would not suggest that anyone take him as a role-model for how to live a peaceful, law-abiding life.

I _will_ note that Renzo does not present himself as a role-model for behavior off the mat or push for students to adopt his philosophy about when to fight. I also haven't noticed that his students or their students are any more prone to start fights, show poor judgment, or exhibit criminal behavior than any other group of martial artists I've met.

If we are going to be judging martial artists by the character of their teacher or their teacher's teacher, then all of us in the BJJ community must be scumbags. Helio Gracie's character, as evidenced by certain of his actions over the years, is nothing that I would ever want myself or my students to emulate.

For that matter, we aren't the only ones who would have that problem. Lots of martial arts have shady characters in the family tree. According to what I've read from Ellis Amdur, even Morehei Ueshiba wasn't exactly a saint.

Fortunately, most of us learn our character outside the dojo.

I have no knowledge of the instructor at the academy in Veracruz, so I can't offer any opinions pro or con. I would suggest that Manny check out the school himself and draw his own conclusions.


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## elder999

Tony Dismukes said:


> I would absolutely not defend Renzo's behavior in this instance (or a few others that I am aware of). I would not suggest that anyone take him as a role-model for how to live a peaceful, law-abiding life.
> 
> I _will_ note that Renzo does not present himself as a role-model for behavior off the mat or push for students to adopt his philosophy about when to fight. I also haven't noticed that his students or their students are any more prone to start fights, show poor judgment, or exhibit criminal behavior than any other group of martial artists I've met.
> 
> If we are going to be judging martial artists by the character of their teacher or their teacher's teacher, then all of us in the BJJ community must be scumbags. Helio Gracie's character, as evidenced by certain of his actions over the years, is nothing that I would ever want myself or my students to emulate.
> 
> For that matter, we aren't the only ones who would have that problem. Lots of martial arts have shady characters in the family tree. According to what I've read from Ellis Amdur, even Morehei Ueshiba wasn't exactly a saint.
> 
> Fortunately, most of us learn our character outside the dojo.
> 
> I have no knowledge of the instructor at the academy in Veracruz, so I can't offer any opinions pro or con. I would suggest that Manny check out the school himself and draw his own conclusions.


 
And over the years, I've had contact with instructors whose extra dojo character was more than questionable....and some of my own actions as a younger man have been less than appropriate, if not downright "_effed_-up."

But I was a younger man...Renzo Gracie was arrested in Manhattan for a bar-brawl-*last year*, and charged with assaulting a bouncer. He was *47* years old. His conduct inside the ring has been unsportsmanlike. That's not to take anything away from him as a fighter or martial-artist, or even instructor and trainer, as some top fighters have sought him out to refine or develop their skills.

I just don't think  a guy who's pushing 50 should be as delighted and clearly in the wrong about a street encounter as he was, cultural reasons or not, it shows bad judgement. With that being said, I have trained with some more dubious characters over the years, because there was some aspect of their skillset and knowledge that I felt was worth it-a Renzo Gracie academy is likely a fine place to train BJJ....I just wouldn't want to be associated with that individual in any way, personally, and would prefer not to have his name tied to mine....think of it this way: in the age of Google, one can expect to be......well, *googled*. You have a brand new "Renzo Gracie affiliated" studio with a kids program. Do you really think Susie Suburban Soccer Mom is going to bring little Johnny in after doing her due diligence on Renzo Gracie? Do you think maybe she wouldn't even let little Johnny anywhere near BJJ *at all* after reading about some of the things Renzo has done?


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## The Great Gigsy

I have a limited knowledge of bjj but from what I know the Gracie family are some of the best, and therefore the training is probably top notch. BJJ could very well be the better fit for Manny as it involves fewer impacts than he would experience in judo. I just don't think this particular instructor is a good representation of the art based on theses actions.


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## ballen0351

MyJudo instructor is 78 he still takes throws.  Manny will be fine.  Just start out slow you will be fine.


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## elder999

ballen0351 said:


> MyJudo instructor is 78 he still takes throws.  Manny will be fine.  Just start out slow you will be fine.


 I know he's keeping count, though-*I am*



and I was advised to start doing so by my seniors, maybe 15 years ago, when I was closer to Manny's present age.....(funny how that number just keeps getting smaller.....


)


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## ballen0351

elder999 said:


> I know he's keeping count, though-*I am*
> 
> 
> 
> and I was advised to start doing so by my seniors, maybe 15 years ago, when I was closer to Manny's present age.....(funny how that number just keeps getting smaller.....
> 
> 
> )


I'm pretty sure something's wrong with him.  He trains a college judo team 5 days a week.  A military/police class twice a week after the college class.  He takes a few throws every class.   He says he does breakfalls 7 days a week.  I hope I'm still able to walk at 78 let alone get tossed around by college kids 5 days a week.


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## Tony Dismukes

The Great Gigsy said:


> I have a limited knowledge of bjj but from what I know the Gracie family are some of the best, and therefore the training is probably top notch. BJJ could very well be the better fit for Manny as it involves fewer impacts than he would experience in judo. I just don't think this particular instructor is a good representation of the art based on theses actions.


Just to be clear, Renzo is not the instructor at the academy in Manny's town. That school is just affiliated with him.

As far as being a good representation of BJJ (or at least its history) ... yeah Renzo kind of is, for good and bad. The Gracie family developed both their reputation and their technical expertise through fighting. They fought in rings and cages, on streets and beaches. They fought for ego, for money, for the family honor, and to promote their family art. They were raised to never back down from a fight, even when legality or good sense might argue otherwise.

Renzo is a classic example of the family tradition. He's friendly, generous, fearless, technically expert, a great instructor, hot-tempered, and eager to fight under any circumstances. If you were attacked on the street  and he happened to walk by, he'd be the first person to jump in and help you. On the other hand, if you wanted to go for a quiet night out with friends and avoid any trouble, he might not be the person you'd want to invite.

None of this is to suggest that BJJ practitioners as a whole (even those affiliated with a Gracie school) are necessarily inclined towards the traditional Gracie mindset. I'm certainly not, even though I take advantage of the knowledge that the Gracies gained through their lifestyle.


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## Hanzou

The Great Gigsy said:


> I have a limited knowledge of bjj but from what I know the Gracie family are some of the best, and therefore the training is probably top notch. BJJ could very well be the better fit for Manny as it involves fewer impacts than he would experience in judo.



That, and Manny did state that he was afraid that the Judo school he was looking at was also too tournament and kid-focused.

He would have neither of those issues at a Gjj school.


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## The Great Gigsy

@Tony Dismukes, thank you. I have definitely know some families like that, so now his mind set makes since. I guess my biggest issue is the joy he expressed from the incident.


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## elder999

The Great Gigsy said:


> [. *I guess my biggest issue is the joy he expressed from the incident*.


 
I  know, right???


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## Manny

Hanzou said:


> You live in Veracruz? What's wrong with this place;
> 
> Jiu Jitsu Renzo Gracie Veracruz



This BJJ Dojo was near the TKD Dojang, they close because the dojo fee (montly) and went back to another place, I located them again but the day I went to see them there were no students or sensei.

BJJ is something exotic down here, not so many BJJ dojos and some of them are fake.

El Manny


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## Langenschwert

Judo is a great art. I took it up at 41. I did suffer a serious injury as a result, so caveat emptor. The most important thing (even more important than breakfalls) is be careful who you spar with. There are some people who don't care if they hurt you in randori. You'll be able to tell very easily. Don't spar those guys, at least not standing. If you're careful who you spar and learn your breakfalls, you'll be as safe as you can be in a full-contact sport.

On the plus side, my Judo sensei says that it's better to take up Judo later in life, in that you have the focus to pay attention to what you're being taught that you don't when you're in your teens. Take it slow and enjoy it. Besides, combining good striking with good judo will make you into a wrecking machine, which is of course, very cool.

Judo has made me a better martial artist for sure, and it's only been two years.


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