# Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo



## GAB

Hello:
Curious as to why??? 

When somebody posts about Kempo on a board that allows Kempo and Kenpo.

Kenpo going back to Hawaii.  Kempo going back to Hawaii. Both going Back to 
James Mitose.

Kajukenbo should be involved in this discussion also.

The hostility that comes from the Kenpo side, then it appears the Kempo side will then become hostile also. Or the other way around. 

Either way can we just talk of Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo, explain why you as a person on this board, have your likes and dislikes.

When referring to this Martial Art, I am talking about Hanshi Bruce Juchnik.
Since he is the one who has put together both, MACS and SKSKI. 

Both organizations are for the preservation of the teachings of GGM James Mitose, and the harmony of the different Martial Arts.

You will see it written as: Kosho, Kosho Ryu, Kosho Shorei Ryu.
Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo. All the above I am referring to. 

Regards, Gary


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## Mekosho

Ummm, wow, I am not totally sure what your question is, but I am thinking (correct me if I am wrong) that you are wondering why when people talk of Kempo/kenpo and it leading back to Mitose, they usually don't include Kajunkenbo as part of that past? Is that right?


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## kelly keltner

O.K. 

maybe I can clear some of this up. What is macs and skski.
macs stands for martial arts collective society. It is an umbrella organization headed up by Bruce Juchnik. It has members and advisors from many different arts kajukenbo included. It's purpose is to preserve the arts for future generations.

skski is the sei kosho shorei kai was developed for the preservation of kosho shorei ryu kempo and the teachings of the late James Mitose.

As far as hostility between kempo/kenpo/kajukenbo groups goes, most of that is directly related to their particular groups agenda. Everyone and I do mean everyone has their own agenda. For example It would seem that the kajukenbo group is pretty much in charge of this A&E special and how it is edited.  Has Bruce Juchnik been contacted? He was Mitose's last student. The answer to that is no. Why not? 

Why is it that when given an oppurtunity to have questions answered like did Thomas Young's certificate have kempo spelled with an n or an m? Representatives of that group say that it's just the "juchnik camp" and don't take the time to call Mr. Juchnik and find out.

Why would someone who said they saw Bruce Juchnik suck at a tournament not be able back that up. Why don't some of the notable martial arts practitioners who were supposedly there come foward to support such a claim. Why doesn't this person call Mr. Juchnik.

why is it that when I post a private message to people such as these with my private phone # and Mr. Juchniks new school # that we never get calls. Why when giving people an oppurtunity to clear some of the missconceptions up these people don't make the call.

The answer is agenda , whether it is I'm gonna stand by and support what my teacher said whether it's right or wrong. Or I'm not gonna give any credit to the howlees(sp). Or whether it's follow the money game. Everyones got one I mean everyone. Even people posting on this forum are here for an agenda, many just like to see their name and know that thousands of people will read it. They don't want to answer, either because they don't wan't to be called on their bluff or they don't care.

 Yes that means I have an agenda. It is this; to help clear up misconceptions about my teacher Bruce Juchnik and his last teacher James Mitose. I have seen the evidence  forensic,historical, and by other people who were there that leads me to believe that my teacher is who he says he is and that supports that Mitose was who he said he was. I will also say I could be wrong and welcome any input either pro mitose/juchnik or con. If I am wrong I will state it. 

I will also say this once again. I do not endorse or condone any of the criminal activities of James Mitose. 

If anyone has any Questions private message me and I will give you my Phone number or Mr.  Juchnik's Phone number and you can call, or you can leave your phone # and I will call you or will forward your # to Mr. Juchnik


kelly keltner

P.S. hey Doc I'm still waiting.


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## GAB

Hi Mekosho,
No that is not what I am saying. I, on purpose made a seperate line to include Kajukenbo. 
They are the ones who like AK want to seperate themselves from GGM James Mitose.
In my opinion that does not lead to a credible position, since Sijo Emperado has given quite a bit of power to GGM Thomas Barros Mitose in the Kajukenbo organization. Hope that helps. Regards, Gary


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## Mekosho

As far as likes and dislikes on Kosho Ryu, all I have is likes, I have studied Kosho for some time and I find it lacking nowhere!

Now of course, there are many on here that will disagree, and the majority all go back to a time when Mitose visited a Parker school or something like that and the techniques he shared did not impress anyone...now, I have heard that explained this way; The techniques were for very advanced students and so to the untrained eye, they appeared to be useless, and this goes inline with Hanshi Juchnik's teachings that true martial arts looks like an accident, not like flowing flashing hollywood! But then again, who knows for sure except the ones that were really there! 
Another thing I tend to see alot is that Mr. Parker was the inovator of Kempo, that his idea to change kempo to better fit the individual was his totally unique way of thinking...this could be, but my instructor teaches us that Kempo is a study of motion, ALWAYS changing, and that is how it has always been! Again, who knows for sure. What I do know, is by time all is said and done, I will have achieved my rank from a very capable individual, one that has has been ranked or trained under Villari, recieved his fith degree  from Cerio, recieved his 6th degree from Grandmaster Robert Hoe, a direct student of Simon Eli, who he has studied under for over 16 years, has  been recognized as a BB of Kosho Ryu by Thomas Mitose and is appointed as regional director of the SKSK by Juchnik who also awarded Shihan with his Yudansha...One that I have every confidence in that I am getting the best training possible for me, and one that when he shares his theory or view point of the Kosho Ryu/James Mitose past, I tend to believe him over all the other, "I heard from a friend who knows someone that actually talked to a guy one time that was related to this dude who saw on the internet what really happened way back before most of us were born"!
Oh, and before I am misread, I mean absolutly NO disrespect to Mr. Parker, he was a great Martial Artist and DID ALOT for Kempo as it is today...


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## John Bishop

Here we go again    :deadhorse


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## kelly keltner

hey mekosho private message me

kelly


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## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Here we go again :deadhorse


good to hear from ya john


kelly


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## GAB

To, John Bishop,

Hi Sigung, Don't you think this is a long over due talk regarding the Honerable standing of the persons (alive) who have all been involved.
GGM Thomas Barro Mitose
Hanshi Bruce Juchnik
10th Dan Ray Arquilla
et al

The contemporay setting is all that I am after. These Honorable persons named above and any that want to place themselves among this group, should step forward and explain the position they are in relating to now..
I know that whipping a dead horse is kind of a negative reply, but I am not taking it as such, because you did reply, that in itself is good enough for me, since I hold you in high regard.. Sincerely, Gary


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## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> To, John Bishop,
> 
> Hi Sigung, Don't you think this is a long over due talk regarding the Honerable standing of the persons (alive) who have all been involved.
> GGM Thomas Barro Mitose
> Hanshi Bruce Juchnik
> 10th Dan Ray Arquilla
> et al
> 
> The contemporay setting is all that I am after. These Honorable persons named above and any that want to place themselves among this group, should step forward and explain the position they are in relating to now..
> Sincerely, Gary


Why?,  The debate about who is actually the head of Kosho Ryu Kenpo will outlive all of us.    

*Some of the leading players.*

*Thomas Barro Mitose*
Everyone who sticks to the party line that "James Mitose was the 21st Great Grandmaster of Kosho Ryu Kenpo" and that it is system that was passed down thru 21 generations of the Mitose family, should have no problems accepting Thomas Barro Mitose as the next head of his own family's system. He was James Mitose's oldest "legitimate" son.  Neither of James's siblings, his brother or sister came forward to claim the title.  According to James's testimony at his trial, his brother was also in Japan with him training at the family temple.  

*Bruce Juchnik*
He was probably the last one to have philosophical and technical discussions with James Mitose before he died.  He and several others worked toward attempting to obtain Mitose a parole.  They set up the "Kosho Shorei Publishing  Co" to show the Parole Board that James would have a legitimate way to make a living if paroled.  They also contributed and helped raise funds to pay for Mitose's attorney.  

*Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee)*
According to his own testimony he was a private student of James Mitose's for 6-7 weeks.  That's 6-7 weeks!!.  How much do you learn of a system in 6-7 weeks.  His claim to fame is that he was Mitose's last student (before incarceration).  According to court records he was promised a 4th degree in return for killing Frank Namimatsu. 

*Ray Arquilla* 
He was just another guy who visited Mitose in prison.  All of the visitors received some type of "Master" certificate. In fact one of the other visitors was only a blue belt, but because he was highly educated, it was felt that he could write many of the documents and correspondances needed for the appeals and parole processes.  

*The bigger question is; is there really such a thing as "Kosho Ryu Kenpo"?  *


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## GAB

Hi John,

There is a person in Ontario Canada. That has a real nice web site who states he is the Hanshi of Kohso Ryu Kempo, His name is Hanshi Richard Buchan.

I will try to get in touch with him and see where he received his information from? 
I believe Hanshi Bruce and GMM Thomas Mitose still talk, I have a feeling if it was not for Hanshi Bruce, GMM Thomas Mitose whould not have had anything to do with his father.  
Estranged relations are sometimes very hard to over come. If you are to believe Hanshi Bruce (which I do ) he wrote a book about it.

To Fall Seven To Rise Eight, It is a beautiful written book and is very nice to look at, Dark green Hard cover with Gold embossed letters and The Mon and Chinese or Kanji (your choice) writing, very nice. ( I have it in front of me now), I have read it several times.
I don't know how someone could have written a book with the type of humility as that, if it was not from the heart.

Sincerely, Gary


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## GAB

Hi John,
Back again I just went to the web site of www.koshoryu.com.

The Web site is Kosho Ryu International, Hanshi Richard Buchan.
The best I can figure is he is hooked up with Nimer Hassan (terry lee).

When I checked out his name in Arabic It means (Leopard Assassin or Leopard Gate Keeper) Interesting Huh? Sincerely, Gary


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## KenpoDave

John Bishop said:
			
		

> *Ray Arquilla*
> He was just another guy who visited Mitose in prison.  All of the visitors received some type of "Master" certificate.



He is certainly not "just another guy."



> *The bigger question is; is there really such a thing as "Kosho Ryu Kenpo"?  *



Sure there is.  It may not be the ancient art that people think it is, but not all are.  If there is no kenpo from Mitose, you are left with Kajubo.


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## kelly keltner

The group your talking about in Canada used to be part of Hanshi Juchnik's group I think they have kinda skipped around to Thomas Barros and maybe later to Hassan, I'll ask Hanshi about them.

kelly


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## kelly keltner

I actually have a technical question for you Mr. Bishop. When and where were the pinon katas that Kajukenbo does developed they are drasticly different than any of the japanese/okinawan versions I have seen.

Kelly


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## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I actually have a technical question for you Mr. Bishop. When and where were the pinon katas that Kajukenbo does developed they are drasticly different than any of the japanese/okinawan versions I have seen.
> 
> Kelly



Sigung John is right when he said: "Here we go again". I will answer the above and John can correct me if I'm wrong. The orignal 'pinans' of Kajukenbo have nothing to do with the 5 pinan Okinawan series. I'm going to guess Sijo Emperado originally called them pinans because he was told by his seniors that the original art that all these Hawaiian derived systems sprung from was 'Okinawan' in origin. Later, he decided to change the names to the 'Palama' sets to reflect the original Palama settlement where they were developed. Kelly, Professor Abregana is being as objective as humanly possible with his part of the A&E investigation and it does seem that there is an Okinawan connection through the Motobu lineage, not Motobu himself, but one of his first or second generation black belts by the name of Nabura Tanamaha. Again, we are awaiting information from Shihan Michael Brown as to a Japnese connection with Mitose. Information provided to me by Shihan Brown is very interesting and does connect Mitose to Japan but not to the Yoshida clan. I realize all will have to see these documents released to the public so they may be scrutinized. We are all awaiting this release. I can also say Shihan Brown is a very respected martial artist in my area and he is totally committed to investigating this controversial subject. As far as I go, it doesn't matter to me one way or the other, I just would like to have the facts straight when I am asked by students and, to be honest, my own curiosity. Regardless of the outcome, it does seem Mitose taught something that he called Kenpo and should he had wished to change it to Kosho ryu and we find it is totally Okinawan in origin that is a fitting name since one of the spelling of Kusanku (Chinese emmissary/general who who is acredited to bringing his interpretation of Chinese Kung Fu to Okinawa) is also spelled 'Kosho'kan. Now, the only lineage that William Chow can be traced through a 'paper trail' is Mitose's with Chow's black belt certificate signed by Thomas Young, Mitose's first black belt. Pictures also show Chow training under Mitose. Again, if one believes in lineage then there is no way Mitose can be cut out of it and for the 100th time, no, I don't condone his criminal activities, hey, I've been a cop for almost 28 years, I would have put him away myself if I was assigned to the case. Although my students are taught of his place in our lineage they are also told of his dark side. To me, imho, that's the way to handle it! I know many, for good reason, wish to deny his position but doing so would be historically inaccurate.  Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras

 PS: As far as all the other 'garbage' goes, it seems these days everything revolves around the 'Almighty $' , many do have 'hidden agendas' for what they do but they are not all that 'hidden', just look for EGO & MONEY and you'll find the true answers. Personally, I'm getting tired of it all! Too much damn commercialism and too many people wanting to be the baddest dude on the planet. You think a lesson would have been learned in that not even Iron Mike Tyson could fullfill that fantasy!


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## GAB

Hi Professor,

I was waiting for your reply, which as always, was good and to the point.

My agenda is the truth, and ''NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH".  Easy for us to know where I came up with that one! <(..

Regarding, "here we go again", I had to begin the thread because it is from a different angle. I'd like to hear from anyone pro, con, good, bad. 

The ball is rolling, and it's not going to stop regarding the A&E Documentary. The issues are not as simple as my questions. 

Many Agenda's involved and much at stake for quite a few individuals. It would be nice to think the Documentary will be honest and non-political.  However with some of the comments made, I can see that Hanshi Bruce will be a footnote, rather than a chapter, that would be unfortunate and inaccurate. 

Over many years, during his travels, Mike Brown has gathered information for Hanshi Bruce Juchnik regarding the history and documentation of GGM James M. Mitose. 

Professor, do whatever is necessary to bring the Truth foreward. If you are a player, let us have the Truth. 

As in the movie "A Few Good Men", I CAN handle The Truth!  Can others on this board say the same?

Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo is not the Latin of Martial Arts. A half a century of Martial Arts Geniuses... Sijo Emperado, the late Ed Parker, Al Tracy, and Hanshi Bruce Juchnik have added to this living martial art known as Kempo/Kenpo. 

Hanshi Bruce Juchnik is a person who stood by James Mitose in his last half decade. Thru thick and thin, Hanshi has tried to spread the Mitose Martial Art as personally taught him by GGM James M. Mitose.  GGM Mitose authorized Hanshi Bruce to teach and develop the GGM Mitose Martial Arts as he saw fit.

Only a closed mind would claim that there is nothing to be learned from all the existing Martial Arts Systems, and each major master in every martial art has an agenda... except for my personal favorite... Motobu Choki or Choki Motobu.

Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner

Thank you Professor

The reason behind my questions about the Kajukenbo Pinons is this. The Kajukenbo version of pinon shodan is almost the same as the neko buto kata we do in kosho ryu.
The neko buto was taught to Bruce Juchnik by Robert Trias who learned them from James Mitose. If this is true then it suggests a link between the two katas and raises questions about statements being made about Mitose only teaching and knowing Nai Han Chi. 
Also in accordance with a post John Bishop made in a seperate thread there was a lot of cross training going on back then so Mitose going to another school to train in an Okinawan style is not unplausible. Especially if Mitose and Motobu new each other in Japan. 
Then again if Mitose made the whole Kosho Ryu thing up. The more power to him. When GoJu ryu came to Hawaii in 1928 it was approximatly 14 years old. Parker created his system starting in the fiftees. chinese kempo, kajukenbo. None of these systems are so ancient that they can really claim a leg up on any one else. 

 My only concern about the A&E special is that it seems that nobody has contacted Hanshi Juchnik. I am concerned because I know he has some of the documentation pertaining to Mitose in his time in Hawaii. Plus the fact he was one of Mitose's last students. He also has hours of video tape interviews with people who were around when Mitose was in Hawaii. Has anyone from A&E contacted Mike Brown and tried to get some of his information.  Lastly, I have tried to get John Bishop to contact Hanshi Juchnik concerening information Hanshi Juchnik has that Mr. Bishop wanted to see. Yet when given the oppurtunity Mr. Bishop declined. So my Question is why aren't these people being sought out. I'm not saying that the Bruce Juchnik/Kosho version of the truth is what the A&E special should be about. If a police officer is investigating a crime and he hears that some one might have valuble info regarding that crime. Doesn't he have a responsibility to follow that lead up. Not doing so might be considered lack of due dilligence on his part. It could lead to the crime not being solved. Or worse yet, the wrong person being convicted.
So what I'm saying is this; Jaime Abregana and John Bishop in conjuction with A&E have a lead that needs to be followed up. If they do not follow it up then they are doing a great disservice to the martial arts community as a whole. 

kelly


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## kelly keltner

One more thing off the topic Hanshi Bruce Juchnik's annual gathering will be in Portland Oregon this year in September. Information can be obtained at www.collectivesociety.com or private message me if anyone has any questions. 

kelly


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## Karazenpo

First let me say Gary is right in stating many have much at stake. So, why should anyone put any credence into what I am reporting? Very simple. I have NOTHING at stake. I am not the 'creator' of some new 'kick ***' style nor am I a successor to some lineage passed on from generation to generation. I'm just a simple guy who is trying to survive on the street as a cop who wants to get home to his family at the end of his tour and a guy who wants to pass on the art but not a myth or give his students a false sense of security passed on by egocentric dojo warriors who don't have a clue what it's like to use what they know in reality situations. Am I being kind of harsh, yeah, a little bit but like I said before, I'm getting tired of the 'whitewash' that's been going on in the martial arts for many years now. Kelly, I have to return a phone call to Professor Jaimie Abregana, it has nothing to do with the A&E investigation but as a courtesy to you, I will give you input on this situation. I promise. Some kenpo/kempo people are claiming they have a superior martial art...B.S. As long as you system encompasses hands, feet and grappling, standing or on the ground  thenyou have a solid, well rounded martial art. Take something out of that formular and then maybe, yes, you do have an INFERIOR marital art and why? Simple, because it doesn't allow for all the possibiliteis that  can happen in a real encounter. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## kelly keltner

Thank you professor

I must say you are one of the very few people on these martial arts disscusion forums that I truly have respect for. I at least know if I ask you a question. I will get an answer. Whether I lke the answer or not, I know it will at least be objective. You are truly a genlteman and a credit to your art.


kelly


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## GAB

Hello Kell,

We were talking the other day and you were asking me about the early Katas? 

I told you where to go? Or did I? I also am going to make a few phone calls and seek a little bit on my own, I still have some contacts, I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks for posting and putting that information up for the Gathering.

Regards, Gary


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## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Thank you professor
> 
> I must say you are one of the very few people on these martial arts disscusion forums that I truly have respect for. I at least know if I ask you a question. I will get an answer. Whether I lke the answer or not, I know it will at least be objective. You are truly a genlteman and a credit to your art.
> 
> 
> kelly



Kelly, Thank you for the kind words.  As I promised, I spoke to Professor Abregana about an hour ago and voiced him your concerns. He will be fair and balanced in his investigation. He is a man of integrity. There is no hidden agenda what-so-ever. If you have any questions that I haven't answered please e-mail me at my private address and I will put you in touch with him. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## Karazenpo

I received an amicable private e-amil asking me if I mean't the Kosho people were the ones who acted like they had a superior art. No, not the Kosho people and there is no reason to elaborate beyond that-no need to start a flame war.


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## Karazenpo

Let me also say this in all due respect to the Kosho people. I am not at liberty to give details but as of this time I feel Mitose's lineage is most definitely Okinawan through Nabura Tanamaha of the Motobu lineage. Members of his family may be indeed connected to martial arts in Japan as stated by Shihan Mike Brown but from what I understand Mitose was born and brought up in Hawaii and only left Hawaii for the mainland United States in 1953. I now don't believe he was ever in Japan but I will stand corrected if someone can show verification otherwise. Let me also say this. Despite the myths and his criminal background, I still have no problem accepting him as the founder of our Hawaiian-derived Kenpo. He may not have been the 21st descendant but possibly the 1st. It is my opinion Kosho Ryu may have been Mitose's own eclectic blend of Okinawan Kenpo and whatever Jiu Jitsui he picked up from Professor Henry S. Okazaki's Danzan Ryu that I think we all can confirm he had exposure to. Some feel that Mutzu's Okinawan Kenpo contained the Tori-te (grappling art) so prodominate in Mitose's techniques and suggest this system may also have influenced his kenpo along with Motobu's art.


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## GAB

Hi Professor:
Flame-war or any other kind of problem I certainly don't need.
I was suspended once on this board and I am not going there again.

I have been expunged from another board for getting into it pretty hot 
an heavy regarding "sticking up" or "shuting up" I won't go there again either.
why,  because they won't let me back.

My "Mom" used to say "don't burn your bridges" SON! I did not burn the bridge, I napalmed it. "No Mas" for me.  

Mom did not want me to go into the Marine Corps either. The nice thing about my Mom, is even when she was right and I did not listen, she still loved 
me and gave me comfort when I needed it, I still talk to her when I need some guidence..Now it is generally after the fact.. Regards, Gary


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## GAB

Hi Professor:

I am writing and you are posting, I am posting and you are writing , anyway.

If you will look on my Profile, you will find that I started in Kajukenbo, that is because I went into a studio in North Hollywood and met a really good man and he was my first Sifu. 

I could really tell you some of the reasons I ended up there, but it is to much like the present as far as the board I was expunged from. History, I love it! 

I learned some of the basics and a few more things as I recall. I never was more then a white belt in Sifu John Leonings Dojo but it was enough. 
I went on to LAPD, (67) you were pretty much doing and learning what they taught or else. Mr. Robert Koga good man and instructor I can tell you that..

With what I learned in the Marine Corps and from Sifu John I was on the right path for protecting myself in the streets of LA, before I became a PO. 
My first Instructor of Kajukenbo was a great guy and very high ranked, when in the 60s the rest were, not!    (Enough SON!) Yes Mom. I still listen, this time anyhow. Regards, Gary 

PS. The Truth, we need the truth.. True... I have seen the Kanji for that 
one, it is great!! Either way the man is a friggen genius...Who?
Hanshi Bruce Juchnik, thats who..G


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## John Bishop

OK

The original names of the Kajukenbo kata's were "Pinion's", not "Pinan's".  They were also called "Monkey Dances" because even back then in the 40-50s most kenpo people knew that they had a connection to "Choki Motobu" who had the nick name "Saru" (english translation= monkey).
They were created mostly by Adriano and Joe Emperado.  Although there are some movements barrowed from Okinawan kata's, they are for the most part a Kajukenbo invention.  The name "Pinion" is simply the way the Filipino Hawaiian's pronounced "Pinan".

As to the A&E documentary, it is a 5 hour, 5 part documentary that is very much still in production.  Kenpo is only one of the 5 parts.  Mr. Juchnik has not been talked to yet  because we are trying to talk to the old timers while they are still with us.  A very important one is now 92 years old, and was a classmate of Mitose's when they trained in Honolulu, Hawaii as teenagers.  There is photographic and documentary proof of this, including government documents from the State of Hawaii.  Another interviewee is Dr. Arthur Keave, who is extremely old, and was once thought to have died or left Hawaii.  He for the most part, did most of the writing for James Mitose.  Bobby Lowe, Paul Yamaguichi, and others are also still with us.  Since these men are still availiable, and Mr. Juchnik did not meet Mitose untill around 1977, it is much more important at this time to get this information from first hand witnesses.


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## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Thank you Professor
> 
> The reason behind my questions about the Kajukenbo Pinons is this. The Kajukenbo version of pinon shodan is almost the same as the neko buto kata we do in kosho ryu.
> The neko buto was taught to Bruce Juchnik by Robert Trias who learned them from James Mitose. If this is true then it suggests a link between the two katas and raises questions about statements being made about Mitose only teaching and knowing Nai Han Chi.
> Also in accordance with a post John Bishop made in a seperate thread there was a lot of cross training going on back then so Mitose going to another school to train in an Okinawan style is not unplausible. Especially if Mitose and Motobu new each other in Japan.
> Then again if Mitose made the whole Kosho Ryu thing up. The more power to him. When GoJu ryu came to Hawaii in 1928 it was approximatly 14 years old. Parker created his system starting in the fiftees. chinese kempo, kajukenbo. None of these systems are so ancient that they can really claim a leg up on any one else.
> 
> My only concern about the A&E special is that it seems that nobody has contacted Hanshi Juchnik. I am concerned because I know he has some of the documentation pertaining to Mitose in his time in Hawaii. Plus the fact he was one of Mitose's last students. He also has hours of video tape interviews with people who were around when Mitose was in Hawaii. Has anyone from A&E contacted Mike Brown and tried to get some of his information.  Lastly, I have tried to get John Bishop to contact Hanshi Juchnik concerening information Hanshi Juchnik has that Mr. Bishop wanted to see. Yet when given the oppurtunity Mr. Bishop declined. So my Question is why aren't these people being sought out. I'm not saying that the Bruce Juchnik/Kosho version of the truth is what the A&E special should be about. If a police officer is investigating a crime and he hears that some one might have valuble info regarding that crime. Doesn't he have a responsibility to follow that lead up. Not doing so might be considered lack of due dilligence on his part. It could lead to the crime not being solved. Or worse yet, the wrong person being convicted.
> So what I'm saying is this; Jaime Abregana and John Bishop in conjuction with A&E have a lead that needs to be followed up. If they do not follow it up then they are doing a great disservice to the martial arts community as a whole.
> 
> kelly



Hi Kelly, where did you hear that the Neko Buto kata was taught to Robert Trias by James Mitose? I have corresponded with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley and she did confirm a relationship of her father with Mitose back in those early years. However, Shihan Mike Brown told me that it was Robert Trias who taught Mitose Naihanchi but now it seems it also could have been Nabura Tanamaha. Man, it gets confusing, doesn't it? Just when you think you have the answer, another plausible alternative comes up.


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## Karazenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> OK
> 
> The original names of the Kajukenbo kata's were "Pinion's", not "Pinan's".  They were also called "Monkey Dances" because even back then in the 40-50s most kenpo people knew that they had a connection to "Choki Motobu" who had the nick name "Saru" (english translation= monkey).
> They were created mostly by Adriano and Joe Emperado.  Although there are some movements barrowed from Okinawan kata's, they are for the most part a Kajukenbo invention.  The name "Pinion" is simply the way the Filipino Hawaiian's pronounced "Pinan".
> 
> As to the A&E documentary, it is a 5 hour, 5 part documentary that is very much still in production.  Kenpo is only one of the 5 parts.  Mr. Juchnik has not been talked to yet  because we are trying to talk to the old timers while they are still with us.  A very important one is now 92 years old, and was a classmate of Mitose's when they trained in Honolulu, Hawaii as teenagers.  There is photographic and documentary proof of this, including government documents from the State of Hawaii.  Another interviewee is Dr. Arthur Keave, who is extremely old, and was once thought to have died or left Hawaii.  He for the most part, did most of the writing for James Mitose.  Bobby Lowe, Paul Yamaguichi, and others are also still with us.  Since these men are still availiable, and Mr. Juchnik did not meet Mitose untill around 1977, it is much more important at this time to get this information from first hand witnesses.



Thanks, Sigung John. I learn something new every day. I knew of Motobu's nickname of 'Saru' (monkey) because he moved like a monkey but I never made the connection of the 'Monkey Dances' with Motobu and yet, shame on me, the connection is so obvious. I always wondered why they were also referred to as monkey dances, I should have seen it!!  Now, I don't know about Okinawan Neko Buko kata and Palama set #1 (Pinion) being the same ( I know Palama set #1 but not Neko Buko) but I do know that our fourth kata in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo was most definitely inspired by Okinawan Pinan #1 (Heian #2). Also, I believe I have seen the opening sequence of our #1 kata (kick-left/punch-right, Kick-right/punch-left) in an Okinawan karate forms book by Patrick McCarthy years ago. Now, put this together with Mitose and Nahanchi, the more I look at it, the more I see our Okinawan connection!


----------



## kelly keltner

Ah now I see and I agree with you whole heartedly. I know Paul Yamaguichi, but I did not know Arthur Keave was still alive. I did not know that. I'll stay off your back for a little while. It's important that you talk to them. If kosho ryu is a Mitose invention I am perfecectly willing to concede that point if it is proven. My spelling of the word pinan I apologize for, bottom line is you know what I meant. Thanks for the spelling lesson though.

kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

It is my understanding that Trias new Mitose. Hanshi Juchnik sought out Trias for Information about Mitose. Trias and Juchnik maintained close ties until his death.
Some of the katas we do come from O'sensei Trias. At least one, the Neko Buto kata supposedly came from Mitose.

kelly


----------



## GAB

Hi all,

In most of the arts, the various Katas handed down, were tweaked to fit a certain path and application within ones own Martial Art. Martial Art is not static, it is not rigid, therefore it cannot be tied down to a specific. 

I thought of this today while doing drills and the person who was doing them with me said don't break away from the drill, this is what you are being taught now and to learn. (we were hitting the heavy bag perfoming a drill specific).

I said OK, went back to the drill a minute then went into a free form attack, for twenty seconds, then went back to the drill. I was questioned why I was doing that when I need to do the drill.

I said I was using the drill in the free form attack and would use the drill only if I was facing another individual, but I can't just do drills.

The FMA is so good for this, not the stuck in the Kata routine. Like JKD. 
It is great if you are getting burned out in your own system, I recommend it highly...At least it works for me, Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> In most of the arts, the various Katas handed down, were tweaked to fit a certain path and application within ones own Martial Art. Martial Art is not static, it is not rigid, therefore it cannot be tied down to a specific.
> 
> I thought of this today while doing drills and the person who was doing them with me said don't break away from the drill, this is what you are being taught now and to learn. (we were hitting the heavy bag perfoming a drill specific).
> 
> I said OK, went back to the drill a minute then went into a free form attack, for twenty seconds, then went back to the drill. I was questioned why I was doing that when I need to do the drill.
> 
> I said I was using the drill in the free form attack and would use the drill only if I was facing another individual, but I can't just do drills.
> 
> The FMA is so good for this, not the stuck in the Kata routine. Like JKD.
> It is great if you are getting burned out in your own system, I recommend it highly...At least it works for me, Regards, Gary



Gary, I think you're right on. Pre-arranged techniques do not work on the streets, per se. Their concepts do (ideas) and they do develop speed, power and accuracy.  Free style is the way!  Example: An attacker is assaulting you with a bat. The pre-arranged technique, per se, is not all that important. What is important is the idea or concept of in order to disarm, you have to step inside of the arc or the eye of the hurricane, in other words, you have to be close enough to kiss him on the cheek to defeat him. Then it's simply close combat fighting. I've said this over and over.......too many martial artists are getting caught up to this false sense of security that is developed in the dojo! Anyone can beat up and UKE, please don't forget that and let's get back to reality fighting. Strong basics and a fundemental understanding of fighting concepts and priniciples. That's it! Nothing more and nothing less! Again, just analyize all those 'caught on tape' fights over the last 10 years. Fighting is not that complicated, it's simple but due to commericalism and ego too many 'masters' want you to think that it involves all these intricate and mystiful techniques!  After all, you need them to make rank, don't you? Well, just ask them when was the last time they can show DOCUMENTATION of the last time they can give a verification of a real life  situation. Every time I ask on a board, I get ignored but I don't get upset over it, I take it as an ANSWER!!!!!!!!! They can't......


----------



## kelly keltner

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> It is my understanding that Trias new Mitose. Hanshi Juchnik sought out Trias for Information about Mitose. Trias and Juchnik maintained close ties until his death.
> Some of the katas we do come from O'sensei Trias. At least one, the Neko Buto kata supposedly came from Mitose.
> 
> kelly


As I read This today let me clarify. The Neko Buto Kata or cat dance form was taught from Mitose to Trias Then from Trias to Juchnik.

kelly


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> As I read This today let me clarify. The Neko Buto Kata or cat dance form was taught from Mitose to Trias Then from Trias to Juchnik.
> 
> kelly



I did confirm with Gm. Trias' daughter, Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley that her father and Mitose were indeed friends during that time in Hawaii. Last I knew she was in the process of doing a book on her father's life. Should be very interesting and may clear up some questions on Mitose.


----------



## GAB

Hello Professor, 
Thanks for the information you have been providing, regarding the up dates.
It will be interesting to see who gets contacted, or asked for their input in respects to the A&E Doc. Lots of players, a pretty large task considering.

Funny about the talk and no action, or no response. I will say this, today if you are going to be a bouncer, you better know what you are doing. Do they have a pension or they just out on their own? <(
Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hello Professor,
> Thanks for the information you have been providing, regarding the up dates.
> It will be interesting to see who gets contacted, or asked for their input in respects to the A&E Doc. Lots of players, a pretty large task considering.
> 
> Funny about the talk and no action, or no response. I will say this, today if you are going to be a bouncer, you better know what you are doing. Do they have a pension or they just out on their own? <(
> Regards, Gary



Gary, I spoke to Professor Abregana and I called Kelly and put them in touch. Professor Abregana is open to all input and like us, he is just searching for the truth and he does agree that regardless of the outcome Mitose is the one who planted the seed that was nurtured and cultivated into the many fine systems we have today. Again, despite any personal feelings about Mitose's criminal behavior (and I agree!) I still stand by this conclusion: "No Mitose-No Kenpo/Kempo/Kajukenbo!"  As the W.W.E.'s 'Stone Cold' Steve Austin would say: "AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE!!!!!"


----------



## The Kai

I know this might be a side track but,


The Neko Buto Form from Kosho Ryu and the Pinions from KaJuKenBo are the same(ish) forms??
Just curious
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> I know this might be a side track but,
> 
> 
> The Neko Buto Form from Kosho Ryu and the Pinions from KaJuKenBo are the same(ish) forms??
> Just curious
> Todd



Yes Todd, I have questions on that too, primarily because the Neko Buto kata is also reffered to as the 'cat dance'. I know and practice Palama set #1 (formerly Pinion #1 of Kajukenbo). I don't see any technique(s) in the form that would give it the nickname 'cat dance'. Professor Cerio named some of his katas 'cat forms' (Cat Forms 1-5) but you could see various movements from the 'cat family' in the forms, I just don't see this in Palama set #1.


----------



## The Kai

I learned a Kata called Karumpha that seems to be similiar to Neko Buto #1 in Kosho - I don't have access to kajukenbo could they be the same/  (Twards the end of the form you drop into a kneel stance and deliver a reverse punch.)

Just curious
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> I learned a Kata called Karumpha that seems to be similiar to Neko Buto #1 in Kosho - I don't have access to kajukenbo could they be the same/  (Twards the end of the form you drop into a kneel stance and deliver a reverse punch.)
> 
> Just curious
> Todd



No Todd, I'll give a quick review of Palama set#1. Using the clock principle: Facing 12 you do your opening salutation. Step back toward 6 with a right outward block (closed hand), step back left downward block, step back w/ right inward block.(footwork is right, left, right) Turn toward 9 (clockwise) with an overhead open hand cross block and then toward 3 (counter-clockwise) with the same cross block. Fist over fist on your left side, face 12 and step in punch (horizontal fist) with the left hand with a simultaneous outward close hand block with the right. Step in right roundhouse elbow to 12 then turn toward 6 with a left hand closed outward block. Step in (12) with a right willow palm to side of opponent's head into a right hammerfist to groin back up into a right backfist to face. Step through facing 12 and close out the form. I don't see any movements from the 'cat family' in this form. I have never seen Neku Buto so I can't compare.

PS: Nick Cerio had a short form that he called 'Waza' (technique) that had the drop down into a kneeling stance with a reverse punch. Don't know if it had anything to do with Karumpha or not but I do know Professor Cerio exchanged knowledge with Hanshi Juchnik at one time. Could be a variation but I really don't know. Never seen Karumpha either.


----------



## GAB

Hello,
With all the information coming out about "Okinawan Martial Arts", it is interesting, many have said for quite a while, "Okinawan martial art had a large influence on the Island of Hawaii".

In fact when talking to Dr. Ted Sumner about Hanshi Bruce Juchnik earlier in the year, he stated something close to this( Juchnik is adding to much Okinawan
arts for my taste).

Maybe Hanshi Juchnik had this in mind all along, and it is finally reaching fruition? Regards, Gary


----------



## BlackCatBonz

on the subject of kata... which i know can be sensitive, the forms that students in kosho shorei ryu study arent simply forms originating from this art. We are taught from the start that our aim is to learn these forms as a way of preserving them, and to learn from them. As for all the talk of Naihanchi i hear about.....yes it is an okinawan form, but as far as i know, and everyone else i have studied with, kosho has a similar form known as Naihan no kata, but only similar to naihanchi as far as moving on a lateral enbusen. But i would see why the early practitioners would refer to naihan no as the "dance of death" because of the movements. naihanchi is hardly a dance.


----------



## Doc

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> P.S. hey Doc I'm still waiting.



You can tell Bruce I said wasup for me.


----------



## kelly keltner

Geez Doc Where ya been?
kelz


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## Randy Strausbaugh

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Never seen Karumpha either.


Could this be related to the Goju-ryu kata Kururunfa?  Seems that the names are too similar to be a coincidence.  Just a guess on my part, could be wrong.  Been known to happen.


----------



## The Kai

Karaumpha could be a mis spelling of a different form?  It's what my teacher called it so..........


----------



## GAB

Hi, 
Talking about the misprint of words, it happens all the time and then down the road someone checks it out and it is a misprint. Maybe it happened here like some have said, whether it was the first or the last certificate, if it is printed it has one hump if it is cursive it has two humps and the m has three humps.

Or the v vs the w when in actuality it is two U's which makes it a double U.
I think that is one of the reasons it is diffucult for everyone (or anyone) to master the english, whether its, cursive or printed. Cursive should be only taught in the upper grades if someone even wants it, times have changed.

The Chinese shortened the amount of Characters in the elementary schools we should shorten up on the cursive part of writing (what ever happened to the 3 R's) I guess that was pretty simplistic? I see on quite a few of the posts various educated (college and up) really get hung up on their eloquence of words and themselves.
I have not been to school in a very long time, do they write in cursive any more or is it typed or printed? What has happened to the cursive writing in America. This is probably a simplistic way of looking at it, are there any school teachers or professors in college who can answer this question?

Considering the various cultures and the different ways of pronunciation, I think it is a very good way to look at it, as small as the world is getting, it is time for the universal language and 3 R's.

I look at it in regards to Ken/mpo, Mitose had forms and tech's, Chow had tech's, Parker has tech's and forms, but Tracy really has a lot of tech's and forms.  

Now the big question, how many forms and tech's are in Kajukenbo and how many are in Kosho Ryu?  Did it start out as Kajukenpo or has it always be Kajukenbo? When was it changed? Or was it changed? I can remember when that was discussed (long ago and a faraway time).

Do we need a new thread for this question? 

We can look at it like a language, if you say it one way (tech's) or you say it another (forms) or you say it another (forms and tech's), pretty simplistic?

The Filipino's have many styles (systems) yet they use the same tools in the art, do they argue about the way it is spelled? 

Here we are in this system arguing about the one letter M or N. How about the letter P or B, is that worthy of discussion? 

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi,
> Did it start out as Kajukenpo or has it always be Kajukenbo? When was it changed? Or was it changed? I can remember when that was discussed (long ago and a faraway time).
> Regards, Gary


Quick answer, and then we can get back on topic. 
"Kajukenbo" is the original and correct spelling.  "Kajuken*po*" is a off shoot of "Kajukenbo" that was founded by Algene Caraulia in the early seventies.  It is primarily practiced in the Ohio area.  
"Kajuke*m*bo" is a spelling that the "Kajukembo Self Defense Systems/American Kajukembo Association" uses for their schools.  This group started by Don Nahoolewa and Richard Peralta uses the "M" in the spelling to recoginize James Mitose as the founder of Kenpo in Hawaii.  (The "M" is for Mitose, not because the word "Kenpo" is supposed to be spelled with a "M".)


----------



## GAB

Hello Sigung:

Thank you, for the quick information. I was running that through my head the other day, thought I would just run that by you. Regards,Gary


----------



## The Kai

I actually started in KaJukenpo (downline from Algene Carulia),  It is not like KaJukenBo from what I have seen.


----------



## GAB

Hi, I started out in the ring when I was about ten years old and had to fight every weekend because I would get in trouble during the week. 
My brother and I were sent to a home for youths, we were there for a year when our parents were having diffuculties. The Smother Bros. were there also, this was back in the early fifties, they were older and we did not see them much.

I have never been far from that mentality of fighting for what you thought was right. I have never let down. Whether in the ring, street, Marine Corps or as a LEO. It is in my blood and that is a fact. One of the reasons I liked/like Kajukenbo so much, it was/is rough and tumble, hard and fast. I am doing FMA at the present, easier on the bod. 

As I get older I think about the spiritual side, but the hard fighting and sticking up for the underdog, or putting the bad guys in jail, it is in my blood. 
Really weird, I guess I watched to much Hopalong Cassidy as a kid, or read to many Zane Grey and Mike Hammer novels, in between days weeks and years of fighting.

If you were to talk to me and not know my back ground, as a lot of people have said, Gary, you are such a nice guy, you really must have a dark side,
I just chuckle...

Regards, Gary


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i was just wondering if gary or kel could clear something up for me.......
i was told....and i could be wrong......that mitose sensei taught the Nai Han No kata, not the NaiHanchi kata back then......and that nai han no was a mitose family form. i havent seen hanshi in awhile so i havent been able to pick his brain. the nai han no kata was more akin to a dance than naihanchi.

shawn


----------



## kelly keltner

Naihan no is the Mitose version of Naihanchi. If asked I would have to say it's more dancelike than Naihanchi. Hanshi is leaving today for a seminar at Jeff Driscoll's I believe. I will ask him next week.
kelly


----------



## KenpoDave

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i was just wondering if gary or kel could clear something up for me.......
> i was told....and i could be wrong......that mitose sensei taught the Nai Han No kata, not the NaiHanchi kata back then......and that nai han no was a mitose family form. i havent seen hanshi in awhile so i havent been able to pick his brain. the nai han no kata was more akin to a dance than naihanchi.
> 
> shawn



According to a letter that I have from Thomas Young, Mitose taught Naihanchi.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> According to a letter that I have from Thomas Young, Mitose taught Naihanchi.


 i know people have letters and trinkets and relics, but it has been known that one tiny misprint or mistaken word can cause a whole world confusion.
but as i have said previously, the naihanchi kata is hardly dance like. and unless you practice Nai Han No, you wouldnt know.

shawn


----------



## GAB

Hi Shawn, 

It is interesting to see that a lot of the hidden arts were handed down through the guise of dancing or festive occasion. It is in FMA and the Okinawan tradition, when the weapons were taken away they went to something else.

In the book of "Five Rings" MM as he gets older starts using the wooden sword or a boat oar to fight. It was quicker and he was older, (probabley would work to day) Staff vs the Sword both made out of a lighter weight metal.

Just a thought. Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

I had a talk with Hanshi last night he said he could not say for sure if Mitose actually taught Naihan No in Hawaii.

Kelly


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Kelly, where did you hear that the Neko Buto kata was taught to Robert Trias by James Mitose? I have corresponded with Dr. Roberta Trias-Kelley and she did confirm a relationship of her father with Mitose back in those early years. However, Shihan Mike Brown told me that it was Robert Trias who taught Mitose Naihanchi but now it seems it also could have been Nabura Tanamaha. Man, it gets confusing, doesn't it? Just when you think you have the answer, another plausible alternative comes up.


 Here comes some more info. Sorry I haven't been posting on the portion of the topic dealing with the topic of Neko Buto's, but I found some info last night while helping Hanshi Juchnik organize some of his files. we came across a letter from Robert Trias with a diagram of the Junni-ippo Kata. The letter stated that around the same time he(Trias) was showing Mitose Junni- ippo kata. Mitose was developing the Neko buto forms. The Neko Buto's were forms that used attributes from the form Karumpha and Naihanchi katas. 

kelly


----------



## GAB

Hi Kell,
The Neko Buto was a cat dance type kata, (name implys) on the balls of the feet? Naihanchi was a pretty solid footing Kata (on the heels).

So do you think they were a combination of the two with a lifting of the heel like the EPAK people are talking about? If so was this the start of the softer forms rather then the harder forms?  

I guess to get more information about the Okinawan line of Katas we will have to go visit some of their boards.

I see they are talking about the hard and soft techs, with the idea that they are internal and external. LOL, Geez.

How about you Kell, Kosho Shorie Ryu Kempo and Kosho Ryu Kempo does that imply hard and soft?  Spirtual being softer then the fighting side or just the opposite?

In the FMA the more spiritual you were, the stronger they were in battle, where does all this misinformation come from.

Were the Crusades our softer side of war or were they harder? Think like you would if you were in a War. Is not that where they come from?

Now if we were on Martial Talk we would have to figure a new name for the thread ( martial) so we could talk about it oustide of the box.

Wait! I had a dream. I remember now. We had the big 3, why do we need more? Okinawa is Motobu, Japan is Funakoshi, Hawaii is Mitose. First generation,  Chow, Emperado, Trias. Second generation, Parker, Tracy, Juchnik, third generation. As you can see they are moving to the west coast. 

If Juchnik goes back to Mitose and Mitose was his teacher does that make him senior or junior to the others? Never have figured it out. In family lineage is he the son or a distant cousin/nephew like the rest? 

How come Ray Arquilla is a 10th Dan in the Tracy system when the founder should be the highest, is it because he is a 3rd to Mitose? Have'nt been able to figure that out either.

Actually dreams are where a lot of the more intense and dedicated people in all walks of life have gotten the idea and continued forth. Rejuvenated and with a new purpose.

Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

Geez Gary, let me give you my perspective. The answer is; that it is a matter of context . In regards to technique what could be considered soft to you could feel like a ton of bricks to the opponent if you hit him at the right time. consider the sucker punch. If the opponent never sees it comming then he takes the full force of the blow. If he sees it comming then he can flinch tightening up the body, intaking air and possiblly inducing a adrenal and endorphine release. I'm not saying anyone should go out and take a cheapshot at anyone. I'm  saying look at it from the standpoint of what makes it possibly effective. Learn to use timming and distance in corolation with the understanding of visual plane, understand what is being seen by the opponent as well as what is not seen. Take that into consideration inthe performance of a technique. What does this have to do with spirituallty. To me it means the understanding that all things have a time and place. In the classroom, onthe street, or in personal relationships. The trick is understanding what is appropriate in each context.

kelly


----------



## BlackCatBonz

as far as hard and soft go......i have to agree with kell on this one to a certain point.
the hard or soft argument is a tough one for most "western" martial artists to get behind. everything i do is soft.....but from uke's point of view,  my strikes may as well be a sledgehammer being fired from a cannon. a hard martial art to me suggests that you have to use much strength.
as for the naihanchi kata's being practiced with one's weight on their heels? that is something i would never do.....i perform all my kata's with the weight on the balls of my feet, unless the kata calls for me to put the weight on my heel as with the taijiquan form. 
maybe you were just kidding gary.....lol
BUT some guys will take EVERYthing at face value, and thats how the whole misinformation thing starts and next thing you know, you have a holy war!!

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

Hi Gary, I would like to give my idea on this following quote from your post: If Juchnik goes back to Mitose and Mitose was his teacher does that make him senior or junior to the others? Never have figured it out. In family lineage is he the son or a distant cousin/nephew like the rest? 

Here's what I have a problem with, the "Mitose was his teacher and does that make him junior or senior to the others?" I don't feel but I totally believe your true lineage is your original lineage. Yes, you can be under Professor John Smith's lineage Tree and Gm. John Doe's but if Sijo John Hancock started you in kenpo/kempo, gave you your foundation and 'identity' and he was the one you spent the most time with from day one before you knew a front punch from a backfist, than he is your true and original lineage! Now, I'm under several lineages since my 3rd degree Black Belt, however, the instructor who brought me from white to black was Hanshi Craig Seavey whom I still train with today. Now about 3 years after my nidan I left the organization I made black with while under Hanshi Seavey. He had also left. It was Villari's original organization in New England. I left in the beginning of 1981. However, I was tested personally by Gm. Villari for 1st and 2nd because back then (I made my shodan in 1977) that's how it was, it was a much smaller group of schools with a 'much better' quality control and more centrally located in New England (other than Canada and Kuwait, yes, Kuwait!, lol.) Therefore, I'm under Villari's Family Tree sponsered by Craig Seavey (who currently heads Nick Cerio's Kenpo). The next instructor I spent the most time with was Professor Nick Cerio and I was personally tested by him also. I am directly under him in his Family Tree with rankings in both NCK and American Kenpo but my original lineage is still American Shaolin Kempo (as it was called then) under the Villari umbrella. Here's my point. I still have a problem with someone who takes a few lessons or spends minimal time with an instructor and then chooses them as their main lineage, their foundation and  identity, especially basing it on prison visits. I don't mean to take a shot at Hanshi Juchnik whom I've heard many positive things about from several of my friends and peers, this is not my intention but it is something I strongly believe in and feel I have to express this when it comes up. Some martial artists whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for have done similar so again please, to the Kosho people, don't take this personally or as a flame 'cause it's not! Just my opnion.  Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor, 

If I open the door (invite the converstion) how can you cause a flame I am presenting a situation and looking for an answer, or and opinion.

If the thought is different then so be it, yours mine who evers.

The idea as to the original line is interesting but if in the mean time you inherit a system or are given a will to change the situation, does it then become yours?

Regards, Gary


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i agree with gary's final statement........ hanshi juchnik has trained with so many different people over the years, but in my opinion, i dont think mitose would have given hanshi carte blanche to do with kosho shorei kempo whatever he wanted had he not thought that he was a capable teacher, capable of understanding the principles and concepts, and capable of teaching the same. i dont think that people realise that kosho is not a technique based martial art like so many others. i have not learned a single technique since i have studied kosho, what i have learned are theories and principles to build upon, which in my opinion are more valuable than any technique from any martial art i had learned from prior. some arts have 1000 techniques or drills or waza, which can take years to master.......mitose sensei gave hanshi the tools to open the door of understanding all that is kosho and gave awarded him menkyo kaiden. not due to the learning of 2000 tech. but due to his understanding. does that make him direct lineage? in my book.....heck yeah!!

shawn


----------



## GAB

Hi Shawn, 

I have been mulling it around for some time now (Juchnik/Mitose), trying to look at it from many different angles.

If we were to look at it through the eyes of the law of the land, USA,
it would be based on laws that have already been set down in the system to be acknowledged and therefore to be sustained.

Yep, he is the Hanshi, that is the bottom line. He has in good faith gone forth and has accomplished what he promised GGM Mitose what he would do.

Of course we have the Lineage of blood that Mitose said he was involved in. So do we have check or check mate?

I believe we have neither, what we have is the King and Queen doing there thing and the Parliment doing there's(if I can digress, which I did) It is that simple in my mind regarding that particular hanging thread.

Next, is he a follower or a leader? Well back to the law of the land he would be a leader. Pretty simple again.

One of the things that GGM Mitose warned Hanshi about was, to beware of 
the Nit picker, so that is what we are seeing. 

Come full circle and who is the leader and who is the follower?

Well like in many organizations we are discussing, we have numerous, Dr Sumner did a pretty good commentary about the way it was set up and in his mind it evolved as good as it could, given the circumstances.

The longer Hanshi is at the helm of the organization he is leading, the better his position will be, so it is similar to the organization of a Church the longer its around the stronger its position. Similar to a strong Bank or a Shipping firm. 
We will now have to look at it like a business rather than a Martial Art.

Looking at the way GGM Thomas Mitose is allowing his part of the organization to be partly consumed by the Kajukenbo group, he is with his own volition, weakening his position respective to his fathers art.

I think that pretty much covers it in my estimation, we have seen the disolution of SGM EP and other Karate Institutions, for lack of a better word we will have to call it, "reorganization". 

Some of the Kajukenbo have already done that, same as the SGM EP group that is now considered EPAK, but that is not fair because they are not under an umbrella, they are a lot of different branches of a tree.

We have seen a similar disintegration in the Tracy system, so we can not throw stones at any one Martial art, for there are many that have gone down this path.

I think Dan Inosanto with his Kali and then the JKD inheritance, probably was one of the smoothest. 

Robert Trias tried to give it a smooth sail, but that was not roses either, or maybe it was, since roses come with thorns.   

I was not considering those since they are not related to the single person who was instrumental in the Martial art we refer to as Kenpo/kempo.

Because they did a better job of transition, maybe, some of the leaders (claim to be) should look at it and try to duplicate it in the future.

I will consider it closed in my mind unless anyone can come up with something better. 

The last thing I would like to say is, the heads of these organizations owe it to the followers (students) to have it go as smoothly as possible. If they can't do that, then shame on them.

Regards, Gary


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## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Gary, I would like to give my idea on this following quote from your post: If Juchnik goes back to Mitose and Mitose was his teacher does that make him senior or junior to the others? Never have figured it out. In family lineage is he the son or a distant cousin/nephew like the rest?
> 
> Here's what I have a problem with, the "Mitose was his teacher and does that make him junior or senior to the others?" I don't feel but I totally believe your true lineage is your original lineage. Yes, you can be under Professor John Smith's lineage Tree and Gm. John Doe's but if Sijo John Hancock started you in kenpo/kempo, gave you your foundation and 'identity' and he was the one you spent the most time with from day one before you knew a front punch from a backfist, than he is your true and original lineage! Now, I'm under several lineages since my 3rd degree Black Belt, however, the instructor who brought me from white to black was Hanshi Craig Seavey whom I still train with today. Now about 3 years after my nidan I left the organization I made black with while under Hanshi Seavey. He had also left. It was Villari's original organization in New England. I left in the beginning of 1981. However, I was tested personally by Gm. Villari for 1st and 2nd because back then (I made my shodan in 1977) that's how it was, it was a much smaller group of schools with a 'much better' quality control and more centrally located in New England (other than Canada and Kuwait, yes, Kuwait!, lol.) Therefore, I'm under Villari's Family Tree sponsered by Craig Seavey (who currently heads Nick Cerio's Kenpo). The next instructor I spent the most time with was Professor Nick Cerio and I was personally tested by him also. I am directly under him in his Family Tree with rankings in both NCK and American Kenpo but my original lineage is still American Shaolin Kempo (as it was called then) under the Villari umbrella. Here's my point. I still have a problem with someone who takes a few lessons or spends minimal time with an instructor and then chooses them as their main lineage, their foundation and  identity, especially basing it on prison visits. I don't mean to take a shot at Hanshi Juchnik whom I've heard many positive things about from several of my friends and peers, this is not my intention but it is something I strongly believe in and feel I have to express this when it comes up. Some martial artists whom I have a great deal of respect and admiration for have done similar so again please, to the Kosho people, don't take this personally or as a flame 'cause it's not! Just my opnion.  Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


 The thing is Hanshi Juchnik's training before Mitose was mostly Tracy's kenpo some arnis and ecrima to name a few. I have seen all of these arts. The Kosho that Hanshi does is unlike any of these arts. If the basis of what he does did not come from Mitose, or if Mitose was a fraud. Then the bottom line is that Mr. Juchnik is a genious when it comes to understanding movement and motion. I am perfectly happy to accept that possibility. The next question might be: is Juchnik senior to most Kempo/kenpo practioners today, or is he the head of all kenpo/kempo?  I have posed similar questions to him in the past. He doesn't purport to be the head of all kosho or anything. That argument possibly could be made, but you'll never see him make it.
He realizes that Tom Barros has his Kosho. Ray Arquilla has his kosho, Even people like James Muro  they all have their different versions of what they do and that is fine. Does he agree with everything they do and say maybe not? But I can guarrantee this he has respect for all of them, even if he doesn't agree with all that they do or say.

kelly


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## kelly keltner

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> The thing is Hanshi Juchnik's training before Mitose was mostly Tracy's kenpo some arnis and ecrima to name a few. I have seen all of these arts. The Kosho that Hanshi does is unlike any of these arts. If the basis of what he does did not come from Mitose, or if Mitose was a fraud. Then the bottom line is that Mr. Juchnik is a genious when it comes to understanding movement and motion. I am perfectly happy to accept that possibility. The next question might be: is Juchnik senior to most Kempo/kenpo practioners today, or is he the head of all kenpo/kempo? I have posed similar questions to him in the past. He doesn't purport to be the head of all kosho or anything. That argument possibly could be made, but you'll never see him make it.
> He realizes that Tom Barros has his Kosho. Ray Arquilla has his kosho, Even people like James Muro they all have their different versions of what they do and that is fine. Does he agree with everything they do and say maybe not? But I can guarrantee this he has respect for all of them, even if he doesn't agree with all that they do or say.
> 
> kelly


let me clear this up cause it was late when I wrote it and is a little unclear as I read it this morning. Bruce says that he is the head of his version of kosho, skski and macs. It's ok with him that different lineages exist. That's what I meant when I said he doesn't say he's head of all kosho.

kelly


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## Karazenpo

I understand where you guys are coming from and I do see your points and I can agree with you on many of them. It's just that in this 'version' of Kosho the Mitose 'connection' is always made in regards to his original teachings, his principles and concepts. By the way, Hanshi Juchnik has done Kosho techgniques with breakdowns of movements in several layouts in martial arts magazines of the past, it appears to me, anyway, that he has or had a curriculum of Kosho techniques that he taught. I, too, am against the hundreds of techniques taught by some systems and I feel all martial arts are taught utilizing principles and concepts, they would have to be, however, it was Ed Parker who put a name on it and then everyone else picked up on it. Physics, kiniesiology, body mechacanics, whatever, is all science, laws of nature, nobody made them up, they were always there but some just know how to apply them better than others. Okay, getting back to this Mitose connection to his original teachings and so forth, this is how I see it. If I wanted to get as close as possible to the true Kosho and teachings of Mitose I would seek out someone directly from the Thomas Young lineage before any of the names previously mentioned including Hanshi Juchnik, with all due respect. Let's face it, Thomas Young was his first Hawaiian-derived Kenpo black belt, the most senior Kenpo student of Kosho. He stayed with the system for life and was responsible for adding many of the 'Okinawan' forms that he had originally asked Mitose permission to do. I know from reading these posts that Bruce Juchnik had been in contact with Young over the years but that's not my point. My point is wouldn't Young's Kosho be the closest thing out there to the original Kosho that you guys are seeking? Wouldn't Professor Young also have these same principles and concepts? Not to mention the fact he actually physically trained with Mitose in those years rather than being told to go seek out information on his own and then give your 'prespective' of it. Wasn't it Thomas Young who really perserved Mitose's teachings? The other thing I noticed is that Kosho Shorei Ryu appears to be, remember I said 'appears'  (I'll be the first to say I'm by no means an expert in your art) to be adopted from traditional Okinawan Kempo Karate. Aren't the curriculum of katas that Hanshi Juchnik added to the system from Okinawan Kempo? The forms of a system are said to reflect the principles and concepts of the art they represent, I mean, they would have too! After all, Shotokan forms were modified to teach principles and concepts of Japanese karate, not Chinese Kung Fu! On the surface it does appear to others that Kosho Shorei Ryu is an eclectic blend of Tracy's Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo Karate with a dash of arnis and there's nothing wrong with that either, all systems are blends of something, it gives 'balance'. Again, I totally agree with Hanshi's legitimacy in teaching his own art. He certainly has the time in grade, knowledge and credentials to be the head of his own system but many just have a hard time believing this system of Kosho is the only system that has preserved the teachings of James Mitose, especially with the very limited training connection, as some say, if any, (prison visits) between Juchnik and Mitose. It is my opinion that this is where the controversy lies but other than for discussion purposes it makes no difference to me one way or the other for it's not my system to defend.  Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


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## KenpoDave

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Okay, getting back to this Mitose connection to his original teachings and so forth, this is how I see it. If I wanted to get as close as possible to the true Kosho and teachings of Mitose I would seek out someone directly from the Thomas Young lineage before any of the names previously mentioned including Hanshi Juchnik.



Lisa Chun, who trained under Mitose as Mitose's sister's training partner, while she was dating Chow, came and trained at the Tracy's school in Lexington for a number of months while she was living there.

She told us that the kenpo we practiced and the way we taught it was "exactly like what she learned in Hawaii" from Mitose.

That being said, I don't think anyone currently has all the information on the original kenpo that was taught in the US.  I think several people have large (and different) pieces of the puzzle though.


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## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i dont think mitose would have given hanshi carte blanche to do with kosho shorei kempo whatever he wanted had he not thought that he was a capable teacher, capable of understanding the principles and concepts, and capable of teaching the same.
> 
> .......mitose sensei gave hanshi the tools to open the door of understanding all that is kosho and gave awarded him menkyo kaiden. not due to the learning of 2000 tech. but due to his understanding. does that make him direct lineage? in my book.....heck yeah!!
> 
> shawn


Lets be real here. James Mitose basically taught Kenpo in Hawaii for about 9 years, and promoted 6 black belts. He did this to make a living along with running a brothel during the WWII years.
He then moved to California and worked as a janitor. During his California years he concieved various schemes to defraud Japanese business owners of large sums of money. He masquraded as a "Minister", "Doctor of Divinity", and "Herbal Doctor". All titles that were proven in court to be made up. 
During the 20 years he lived in California, prior to going to prison, he had only 1 known student, who he taught for a total of 7 weeks. This student was groomed to be his enforcer. At Mitose's request he attacked a elderly couple who were going to the District Attorney to file fraud charges against Mitose. The 69 year old man was killed, and the woman was severly beaten. 
After he went to prison, a handful of sincere Kenpo practitioners seeking historical knowledge started to visit him. Mitose did to them what he did to everyone he could use. He told them whatever they wanted to hear in exchange for what he wanted. Does anyone really think he was worried about the future of Kosho Ryu Kenpo? If he was, why did he only teach 1 student in the 20 years before he went to prison? 
He was in prison for life! He used these sincere men to set up a means to pay for the attorney's he needed to appeal his case. He also used them and his "Peaceful Martial Arts Philosophy" to boost his chances for a parole. 
In reality Mitose was a manipulative, cruel, and vicious animal, not a man of peace. In the end he got exactly what he deserved, diabedes, blindness, a debilitating stroke, and death.


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## Kosho-Monk

> In reality Mitose was a manipulative, cruel, and vicious animal, not a man of peace. In the end he got exactly what he deserved, diabedes, blindness, a debilitating stroke, and death.


John Bishop,

I found your last statement about Mitose's death to be quite disturbing. I cannot believe that Sijo Emperado would support a senior member of the Kajukenbo community saying that.



All,

Must we always focus on the negative aspects of James Mitose's life? Can we not simply accept that in the end James Mitose's intentions for keeping the art of Kempo alive were pure? And even if you cannot accept that, how does it serve you to continue bashing his memory? It doesn't.

If I spent all the time I could debating the life of James Mitose, I'd never actually grow in the Kempo that he shared with all of us.

Until we can all move forward and stop bashing the memory of the late James Mitose, we will not be able to heal as a martial arts community. There is so much separation within our groups.

Let's focus on the positive things that are happening currently in the martial arts. 

Hanshi Juchnik is holding another "Gathering" in Portland, OR next month. (Sep. 25-26) Hanshi puts on this event in hopes that practitioners of all the martial groups can set aside their hate and anger for each other, and train in the spirit of peace and love. I invite each of you to attend this wonderful event and grow together in the martial arts.

I will be there learning right beside practitioners of several arts. I look forward to meeting each of you..... and learning from you as well.


With respect,
John Evans


May Peace Prevail on Earth!! (and in the martial arts community!!)


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## John Bishop

Kosho-Monk said:
			
		

> John Bishop,
> 
> I found your last statement about Mitose's death to be quite disturbing. I cannot believe that Sijo Emperado would support a senior member of the Kajukenbo community saying that.


Exactly what I'm talking about.  A lack of realistic thinking.  You find my statements "quite disturbing", but yet you strive to protect the memory of someone who's actions, (not statements) were dishonest, cruel, and murderous.  

Let's face it, Mitose made several claims during his lifetime.  Some of the biggest ones:

1. "He attended seminary after moving to California"  Proven in court to be false.
2. "He was a ordained minister with the First Methodist Episcapal Church"  Proven in court to be false.
3. "He received a Doctor of Divinity degree".  Proven in court to be false. 
4. "Choki Motobu was his uncle".  Proven to be false by the son of Choki Motobu.

All major claims.  All false.  But yet some people have no problem accepting his claim that he was raised in a Buddhist temple, and that he was the 21st generation "Great Grandmaster of Kosho Ryu Kenpo".


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Exactly what I'm talking about. A lack of realistic thinking. You find my statements "quite disturbing", but yet you strive to protect the memory of someone who's actions, (not statements) were dishonest, cruel, and murderous.
> 
> Let's face it, Mitose made several claims during his lifetime. Some of the biggest ones:
> 
> 1. "He attended seminary after moving to California" Proven in court to be false.
> 2. "He was a ordained minister with the First Methodist Episcapal Church" Proven in court to be false.
> 3. "He received a Doctor of Divinity degree". Proven in court to be false.
> 4. "Choki Motobu was his uncle". Proven to be false by the son of Choki Motobu.
> 
> All major claims. All false. But yet some people have no problem accepting his claim that he was raised in a Buddhist temple, and that he was the 21st generation "Great Grandmaster of Kosho Ryu Kenpo".


Sometimes pointy TRUTH stick jabbing is necessary.     I hate subtlety.

DarK LorD


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## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I understand where you guys are coming from and I do see your points and I can agree with you on many of them. It's just that in this 'version' of Kosho the Mitose 'connection' is always made in regards to his original teachings, his principles and concepts. By the way, Hanshi Juchnik has done Kosho techgniques with breakdowns of movements in several layouts in martial arts magazines of the past, it appears to me, anyway, that he has or had a curriculum of Kosho techniques that he taught. I, too, am against the hundreds of techniques taught by some systems and I feel all martial arts are taught utilizing principles and concepts, they would have to be, however, it was Ed Parker who put a name on it and then everyone else picked up on it. Physics, kiniesiology, body mechacanics, whatever, is all science, laws of nature, nobody made them up, they were always there but some just know how to apply them better than others. Okay, getting back to this Mitose connection to his original teachings and so forth, this is how I see it. If I wanted to get as close as possible to the true Kosho and teachings of Mitose I would seek out someone directly from the Thomas Young lineage before any of the names previously mentioned including Hanshi Juchnik, with all due respect. Let's face it, Thomas Young was his first Hawaiian-derived Kenpo black belt, the most senior Kenpo student of Kosho. He stayed with the system for life and was responsible for adding many of the 'Okinawan' forms that he had originally asked Mitose permission to do. I know from reading these posts that Bruce Juchnik had been in contact with Young over the years but that's not my point. My point is wouldn't Young's Kosho be the closest thing out there to the original Kosho that you guys are seeking? Wouldn't Professor Young also have these same principles and concepts? Not to mention the fact he actually physically trained with Mitose in those years rather than being told to go seek out information on his own and then give your 'prespective' of it. Wasn't it Thomas Young who really perserved Mitose's teachings? The other thing I noticed is that Kosho Shorei Ryu appears to be, remember I said 'appears' (I'll be the first to say I'm by no means an expert in your art) to be adopted from traditional Okinawan Kempo Karate. Aren't the curriculum of katas that Hanshi Juchnik added to the system from Okinawan Kempo? The forms of a system are said to reflect the principles and concepts of the art they represent, I mean, they would have too! After all, Shotokan forms were modified to teach principles and concepts of Japanese karate, not Chinese Kung Fu! On the surface it does appear to others that Kosho Shorei Ryu is an eclectic blend of Tracy's Kenpo and Okinawan Kenpo Karate with a dash of arnis and there's nothing wrong with that either, all systems are blends of something, it gives 'balance'. Again, I totally agree with Hanshi's legitimacy in teaching his own art. He certainly has the time in grade, knowledge and credentials to be the head of his own system but many just have a hard time believing this system of Kosho is the only system that has preserved the teachings of James Mitose, especially with the very limited training connection, as some say, if any, (prison visits) between Juchnik and Mitose. It is my opinion that this is where the controversy lies but other than for discussion purposes it makes no difference to me one way or the other for it's not my system to defend. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


Just when I thought this thread was dead. Bamm there is still life in the old girl yet.
Let me see if I can shed some light on some of this. 
First when refering to the origonal teachings and concepts. As far as techniques in regards to origonal teachings. Hanshi does not profess to do that. In the begining of every tape hanshi has. A statement is made. " the kai was developed to preserve the teachings of the late James Mitose." He doesn't say from what time period. He doesn't use the word origonal. The origonal teachings Mitose taught consisted of Makiwara training and kata. Yes that woud be naihanchi an Okinawan kata. Wasn't almost every martial arts system with the exclusion of mabe jujitsu doing thse katas weren't they fairly common? Many of the katas we do in Kosho are Okinawan some such as the pinan series are done in the Japanese fashion meaning that pinan shodan and nidans sequence would be flipped. Pinan shodan in Okinawan systems would be our nidan and vice versa. If the story Mitose states is true. Then why would he teach his family art to anyone in Hawaii especially non japanese, But what he could do is teach from another art he picked up while living in Japan that would serve his purpose without giving away his family art. Hence calling it Kenpo Jujitsu or Jujitsu (kempo) as it is written on Thomas Young's Certificate. Just an opinion of mine I'm Not saying it's gospel truth. So if you wanted to learn exactly what Mitose taught, yes you would go back to Young but who's to say during that time period Mitose actually taught his family art in Hawaii in the early years. As far as the statement that shotokan forms were developed to teach the principals and concepts of Japanese karate, Not Chinese kung fu. You need to remember shotokan comes from Funakoshi, Funakoshi was taught by Azato and Itosu their lineage goes back to Bushi Matsumura. They were all Okinawan and their lineage goes back to China. Yes the forms they did were developed, shaped and changed by the different practicioners and those practioners were influenced my the different mindsets and prejudices within their cultures.

On to a different portion of my reply. To the subject of techniques in Kosho Ryu. We do not have pre-arranged techniques. We have basics Which would be like stances. hand and foot weapon formation. different kicks and punches ect. We also study timming and distancing, posture positiong and strategy.
As far as the techniques in the articles he makes them up on the spot. He does the same with his video tapes. I have been there for some of the magazine shoots, and I have shot many of his tapes/dvd's myself there are no scripts. He takes a topic and runs with it. Compare that with a well known fillipino practioner I shot video for 4-5 years ago who took 19 hours to put 12 techniques on tape. Compre that with mabe 1-2 hr shoot time for hanshi.

I have studied enough escrima, kenpo, karate and gung fu to know that the Kosho we do is somewhat simalar to these arts in some respects but is very different in others. We don't have techniques like five swords or outside for a number one. so saying that kosho is some of this sprinkled with some of that is correct but at the same time inncorect. Most of these arts don't teach you about timming and how it relates to visual plane and posture, These are just some of the things we learn in kosho. If Mitose made it all up then so what. Once again that would mean Juchnik took what he learned and turned it into to something great that makes him a genious.

kelly


----------



## GAB

Hi John,

Sound's pretty convincing to me.
Sometimes the truth hurts, but if it is the truth, well.
I stated my case and you have stated some extra information and it sounds convincing.

Does that make the other people who studied and created the system we know now, Al Tracy's system and Ray Arquilla any less? 
Or is Hanshi Juchnik system any worse? 

No not in my mind.

I think we ought to let this subject rest in peace and go on fresh and look forward to the next topic.

I think Dark Lord placed the last nail.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Just when I thought this thread was dead. Bamm there is still life in the old girl yet.
> Let me see if I can shed some light on some of this.
> First when refering to the origonal teachings and concepts. As far as techniques in regards to origonal teachings. Hanshi does not profess to do that. In the begining of every tape hanshi has. A statement is made. " the kai was developed to preserve the teachings of the late James Mitose." He doesn't say from what time period. He doesn't use the word origonal. The origonal teachings Mitose taught consisted of Makiwara training and kata. Yes that woud be naihanchi an Okinawan kata. Wasn't almost every martial arts system with the exclusion of mabe jujitsu doing thse katas weren't they fairly common? Many of the katas we do in Kosho are Okinawan some such as the pinan series are done in the Japanese fashion meaning that pinan shodan and nidans sequence would be flipped. Pinan shodan in Okinawan systems would be our nidan and vice versa. If the story Mitose states is true. Then why would he teach his family art to anyone in Hawaii especially non japanese, But what he could do is teach from another art he picked up while living in Japan that would serve his purpose without giving away his family art. Hence calling it Kenpo Jujitsu or Jujitsu (kempo) as it is written on Thomas Young's Certificate. Just an opinion of mine I'm Not saying it's gospel truth. So if you wanted to learn exactly what Mitose taught, yes you would go back to Young but who's to say during that time period Mitose actually taught his family art in Hawaii in the early years. As far as the statement that shotokan forms were developed to teach the principals and concepts of Japanese karate, Not Chinese kung fu. You need to remember shotokan comes from Funakoshi, Funakoshi was taught by Azato and Itosu their lineage goes back to Bushi Matsumura. They were all Okinawan and their lineage goes back to China. Yes the forms they did were developed, shaped and changed by the different practicioners and those practioners were influenced my the different mindsets and prejudices within their cultures.
> 
> On to a different portion of my reply. To the subject of techniques in Kosho Ryu. We do not have pre-arranged techniques. We have basics Which would be like stances. hand and foot weapon formation. different kicks and punches ect. We also study timming and distancing, posture positiong and strategy.
> As far as the techniques in the articles he makes them up on the spot. He does the same with his video tapes. I have been there for some of the magazine shoots, and I have shot many of his tapes/dvd's myself there are no scripts. He takes a topic and runs with it. Compare that with a well known fillipino practioner I shot video for 4-5 years ago who took 19 hours to put 12 techniques on tape. Compre that with mabe 1-2 hr shoot time for hanshi.
> 
> I have studied enough escrima, kenpo, karate and gung fu to know that the Kosho we do is somewhat simalar to these arts in some respects but is very different in others. We don't have techniques like five swords or outside for a number one. so saying that kosho is some of this sprinkled with some of that is correct but at the same time inncorect. Most of these arts don't teach you about timming and how it relates to visual plane and posture, These are just some of the things we learn in kosho. If Mitose made it all up then so what. Once again that would mean Juchnik took what he learned and turned it into to something great that makes him a genious.
> 
> kelly



C'ome on kelly. I knew when I gave that Shotokan example someone was going to say Funakoshi was Okinawan and his teachings were influenced from China and I was almost going to erase it but really....everyone knows that everything came originally from China when it comes to our arts. You don't think I knew that? Besides, it makes no difference because I was emphasizing PERSPECTIVES and please, Shotokan is about as far from Kung Fu as you're going to get! You know that! Now, this thing about Mitose's family art is about to be going down the tube and I got that from a very, very reliable source. HE NEVER LEFT HAWAII and I challenge anyone on this forum to give positive proof that he did because I know positive proof that he didn't will be coming out soon. And again, Hanshi Juchnik, head of Mitose's system should have this proof at his disposal and has been invited by John Bishop and others to join our forum. He would not be 'flamed' but given the respect we give each other in voicing or opinions and perspectives but EVIDENTALLY HE REFUSES AND THE ANSWER IS SIMPLE: MITOSE NEVER LEFT HAWAII! I now believe this whole Shaka In Temple thing is another Mitose sham or you guys would have come up with something else but rhetoric by now. Also, in the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing John Bishop had posted when he said Mitose's Kosho Ryu thing when he was in prison was another scam of trapping some honest and sincere people into doing his bidding as he did with Terry Lee back in 1971! He was setting these good people up to help him with a 'get out of jail card' early! As John Bishop reminded you, please link the word MANIPULATION with James Mitose! If I knew John and I were going to get slammed by this nonsense then I wouldn't have been so polite as to leave that out of my post! Here's reality: Mitose was a criminal of the worst kind and as I'm sure Gary will agree being a seasoned police officer like myself and John Bishop, this is how a con man works!!! Yes, he started this kenpo thing. I give him credit for that! He trained in Okinawan Shorei Ryu Kempo Karate of the Motobu lineage with some exposure to Danzan Ryu. HE NEVER MADE BLACK BELT in either system but that doesn't bother me because back then many didn't when they went on to develop their systems. Things were different then. A black belt then was like a grandmaster today and if you had some serious training in the arts which I believe he had in Okinawan Kenpo than that would probably be equivalent of a black belt in the 60's and 70's and look how many first and second degrees went on to establish their own systems back then! I'll give him that much and he deserves it but the rest is fantasy! Like I said any experienced cop can pick up on the M.O. of a con man and James Mitose is very easy to figure out. Police work is my livelihood and without trying to sound cocky, I'm very good at it and so isn't John Bishop. Please think about what we are saying because eventually something is going to give and most of the truth will come out. In closing, please post the evidense of Mitose's family art and Shaka In in Japan and let us check it out and if you guys are right I'll be the first to make a public apology here on this forum. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

PS: One other thing, I feel we have the proof of Mitose never leaving Hawaii, therefore never trained in Japan but remember it is the Kosho people who make this claim and even if we didn't have the evidence that he did, it is incumbent upon you to prove that he had. It is your claim, not ours!


----------



## kelly keltner

I don't know if sincere is the word to describe Terry Lee, but if you say so ok. I never said Mitose wasn't a criminal

kell


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I don't know if sincere is the word to describe Terry Lee, but if you say so ok.
> 
> kell



Kelly, you definitely misunderstood my post when I said SINCERE! Where the heck does Terry 'The Killer' Lee come into this???? I'm talking about the guys who made those prison visits and who I had foremost in mind was Professor Eugene Sedeno who I have the utmost respect and admiration for!! You're telling me that Terry Lee visited Mitose in prison? If so I never heard that one before.


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I don't know if sincere is the word to describe Terry Lee, but if you say so ok. I never said Mitose wasn't a criminal
> 
> kell



And no Kelly, you're right, you never said he wasn't a criminal but if you are willing to concede he is a con man then take it from experienced law enforcment personal.........a con man is always conning, that's his nature. There is a Daoist saying: The cat does not kill, the rat does not steal, they all act according to their own nature.


----------



## Karazenpo

Kelly wrote: If Mitose made it all up then so what. Once again that would mean Juchnik took what he learned and turned it into to something great that makes him a genious.

I say: Or are you Kelly part of the new generation who is now being conned? Reminds me of child abuse case histories, it keeps getting passed down from generation to generation until someone gets help to stop it......makes you think, doesn't it? I'm not saying this is the case but it's something to throw in the ring to think about since the 'powers to be' have not come forward as of yet to prove this Kosho thing. I'm waiting and will humbly stand corrected if I'm off base. No problem!


----------



## Mekugi

Technically, he was a felon. No offense intended. 



			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I don't know if sincere is the word to describe Terry Lee, but if you say so ok. I never said Mitose wasn't a criminal
> 
> kell


----------



## GAB

Hi, Some pretty rough thought's there. 

One minute John is saying the Martial Artist's that went there were conned. 
In awe? Tried to do what they thought was right. Try to right a wrong, we see it all the time in the system of Jursiprudence.
Next you connect it up to an on going problematic (abuse) handed down from geneation to generation...Geez... I think I have got to step back in and level the playing field here.

Terry Lee was only dupped also, killed one and hurt another? Different situation I would say. Oh wait, he was used to convict, now he is a good guy?

Sorry the thing that turned my stomach,(on the job of LEO) was to have to use snitches. Pay them, make them seem responsible, then burn the other person so the snitch can take over the territory. Help the law and order guy, sometimes you wonder who is in who's pocket. Yin and Yang?

I just finished a good book, by Robert Parker, that very subject. About a three generation family, of cops in Boston.

Good book? Well written, if you like cons and the dark side of Law Enforcement. Personally, I don't, but it is the truth, so we deal with it.
One of the students Ray Arquilla goes out and does good things, now this man is in the system (Ray) on the other side of the bars, dupped goes on to help Al Tracy, gets promoted to 10th Dan does good things all the time.

Hanshi Bruce sets up a system and spreads the word telling everyone about the great Martial arts that came out of China, Okinawa, Japan and Hawaii, dupped but was a believer, maybe in awe, spends over 25 years setting up a great system and then he is maligned like that.

Boy, pretty sad, we have dropped a couple of pegs in my book.

Oh by the way I am retired LOE myself, so there are different thoughts out there among the LOE guys, some still abide by the law, you are Innocent until proven guilty or as they say in the south (still Napoleonic laws in some of the states) Guilty until proven innocent.
One of the reasons we fought the civil war was human rights issues, why would we want to go there (south). Is it even in the US as far as proper Law and human rights issues? 

Obvioulsy I am not a right winger...
Regards,Gary


----------



## John Bishop

Gary: 

If you read the 84 posts on this topic, I don't think you will find anyone saying "Terry Lee is a good guy". I know I certantly did not. In fact I always make it a point to state the truth about him. "He only trained with Mitose for 7 weeks" and that "he murdered a 69 year old man, and half killed his wife". You keep saying that your retired LAPD, well your former agency did the investigation. Use your sources and find retired LAPD detective Earl Nishimura. Last I saw him (10 years ago) he was working as a investigator for the California State Lottery. 
I think Mitose was extremely lucky that they did not have DNA testing in 1974. Because the forensic technicians found Asian hairs in Frank Namimatsu's bloody hand. And the hairs weren't Frank's or his wife's. And as you probably already know, Terry Lee was black. 

As far as I recall, I have never said anything derogatory about Mr. Juchnik. I have heard mostly positive things about his character and martial skills. In fact his teaching career and dedication to the arts far exceeds Mitose's. 

What I have always questioned is "Kenpo History" according to Mitose. And "Kenpo Philosophy" as espoused by Mitose. 

Mitose lived his life as a con man and liar. So why should we believe him when he tells the tale of the temple in Japan?

Mitose stole from people, beat people, threatened people, ordered and planned the murder of people, and possibly murdered someone by his own hand. So why push this myth that he espoused a "Peaceful Philosophy"?

So yes when anyone preaches the virtues of following the "Philosophy" of Great Grandmaster James Mitose, people here are going to react adversly. Men are judged by their actions, not their words.


----------



## GAB

Hi John, You are right I started with your name and then directed it towards Professor Joe.

I should have made that clearer, apparantly I have a tendicy towards that, I have been called on it by others, so where there is smoke there is fire.

Yes, I am retired LAPD, thanks for the name and location, I was just thinking that very thing. But because I have confidence in your information, I was thinking that would be a big waste of time.

I am gathering information and trying to keep a clear head on this, for me it comes in pretty clear. Others have different thoughts. I am not so sure I would have taken the path, but I am trying to understand it.

Ray Arquilla is a man involved with the prison system and yet he still went there. I figure OK, now I'll check that out, go from there, that is another person who is reliable. What did they see, that I don't.

Questioning someones intentions gets a little touchy sometimes.

Kell remarked everyone has an agenda, Yes I do, I am trying lately to find the truth, and make sense of 25 years and for????

I have other reasons, but they are not anything other then finding the history of Mitose. When I started doing that it became larger,  I have found the History of Karate, many books many fine men, some not as good.

Russia had great rulers and they were are allies why did we go there knowing there reputation? Or in the Phillipines, why did we back who we did or in the Vietnam War or now in Iraq, I love the history and therefore I wanted to know more in my own mind. 

Not just words, but real reasons. Read books, stories about these incidents,
you won't get wet if don't get in the water, (thought pattern) emerse like others have.

I think that is what got Hanshi Bruce, history, the knowledge, the way, the path to finding out what he was looking for. 

Anyway I am not pointing fingers or worrying about Mitose he is past, what I would like to find out is why do we attack some and not others?

There is so much misinformation, when you start digging that it is hard to keep yourself from just throwing up and saying, This is all BS.

I was there because of the art to protect me and others, it is a tool like any other tool when you need it, if you don't have it, you can't get the job done.
I was very fortunate in finding Sifu Leoning when I went on my quest and then I continued on and so forth.

So, thank you for the lead.  Regards, Gary


----------



## Doc

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Gary:
> 
> If you read the 84 posts on this topic, I don't think you will find anyone saying "Terry Lee is a good guy". I know I certantly did not. In fact I always make it a point to state the truth about him. "He only trained with Mitose for 7 weeks" and that "he murdered a 69 year old man, and half killed his wife". You keep saying that your retired LAPD, well your former agency did the investigation. Use your sources and find retired LAPD detective Earl Nishimura. Last I saw him (10 years ago) he was working as a investigator for the California State Lottery.
> I think Mitose was extremely lucky that they did not have DNA testing in 1974. Because the forensic technicians found Asian hairs in Frank Namimatsu's bloody hand. And the hairs weren't Frank's or his wife's. And as you probably already know, Terry Lee was black.
> 
> As far as I recall, I have never said anything derogatory about Mr. Juchnik. I have heard mostly positive things about his character and martial skills. In fact his teaching career and dedication to the arts far exceeds Mitose's.
> 
> What I have always questioned is "Kenpo History" according to Mitose. And "Kenpo Philosophy" as espoused by Mitose.
> 
> Mitose lived his life as a con man and liar. So why should we believe him when he tells the tale of the temple in Japan?
> 
> Mitose stole from people, beat people, threatened people, ordered and planned the murder of people, and possibly murdered someone by his own hand. So why push this myth that he espoused a "Peaceful Philosophy"?
> 
> So yes when anyone preaches the virtues of following the "Philosophy" of Great Grandmaster James Mitose, people here are going to react adversly. Men are judged by their actions, not their words.


----------



## GAB

Hi Doc,

I get the idea, yes it is kind of a no brainer in a lot of respects. But I think I relayed my thoughts pretty clearly

At least you took the time to respond, I have read a lot of what you have been saying.

Yesterday I was reading SGM EP's Encyclopedia that his son finally finished. 

I paid $70.00 for it on Amazon.com awhile back, when more came out in the stores(new) I bought 5 copies, I have a lot of EPs books and find them very interesting. 

History I love it, of course there are many stories and opinions but they are all interesting. 
But like I say, there is a lot of convoluted thoughts, that have been conveyed, picked up and carried to the goal post for the touchdown. 

To bad we don't have instant replay, but then we would not have stuff to talk about, ideas, opinions, and the most important part, Kenpo!

I feel lucky, yesterday Clyde, today you.

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi John, back real quick.

I just got an E-mail from a very reliable confidential informant, that tells me James M. Mitose did go to Japan, studied Kenpo and it was not Motobu he got his information from but some of his students (motobu). Along with Okazaki's students, but then I've also got more to corroborate his story.

GM Al Tracy was the first I believe to talk about Mitose and Japan.
Of course Hanshi Bruce makes it pretty clear and so do others in Hawaii 
How about Kimo, I thought I read where he felt Mitose did go to Japan.
(if he did or not the guy was a Major conman and criminal, I have always said many many times and scratched my head) 

What about the temple and the person's, Paul Twitchell and Fusai Oshita .

Will that be enough to get a Search Warrant signed? <(

I might follow up what you were saying about Earl. NV. is last known address. 
Do you know what area of town or the Division? Valley or Downtown?
I can go about it several ways. 
Regards, Gary
PS. Peaceful, compared to the Samuri,artyon:


----------



## BlackCatBonz

is prof joe saying that we are getting conned by hanshi juchnik? i just want to make sure that all of the slamming is clear.
as far as the forms that we practice in kosho....as told to me by hanshi juchnik, its simply a way of preserving and passing on these forms for other students to learn from and enjoy. i have learned forms from many different styles at the encouragement of hanshi bruce, and the history of these styles. there are many practitioners out there that dont even know the basis of their art or its history. as a humble student and teacher of the arts i feel a sort of responsibility to tell people what i have learned.....not for any glory or recognition, but simply because the history behind the art is just as fascinating as the art itself.

shawn


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## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi John, back real quick.
> 
> I might follow up what you were saying about Earl. NV. is last known address.
> Do you know what area of town or the Division? Valley or Downtown?
> I can go about it several ways.
> Regards, Gary
> PS. Peaceful, compared to the Samuri,artyon:


I'm not that familiar with the LAPD divisions.  The murder occurred at 3787 S. Norton Ave L.A., so you would probably be able to figure out what division Earl was working out of.


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## John Bishop

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I'm not that familiar with the LAPD divisions. The murder occurred at 3787 S. Norton Ave L.A., so you would probably be able to figure out what division Earl was working out of.


Gary, I looked thru some of the probation reports tonight.  Earl was working out of the "Southwest" division.


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## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi John, back real quick.
> 
> I just got an E-mail from a very reliable confidential informant, that tells me James M. Mitose did go to Japan, studied Kenpo and it was not Motobu he got his information from but some of his students (motobu). Along with Okazaki's students, but then I've also got more to corroborate his story.


I sure hope it's not the same reliable source who told you last week that Sijo Emperado died.:whip:


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## Karazenpo

Hi guys. yeah, I shouldn't have implied that you guys are getting conned by Juchnik, like I said before I have heard many positive things about him but I just get a little fustrated when this subject comes up and here's why. I was never a Mitose detractor. I took what I was told as the the histroy and passed it on to my students. Then, many began to question this history. I didn't want to be like others I knew in the arts over the years that would pass out misinformation and perpetuate myths and have my students think I was full of sh-t when the truth came out!, lol. So, I began to dig for the truth or at least as close to the truth as one can get when researching history. The reason of my fustration and why I mentioned the 'con' thing was that if you have information that can put this to rest once and for all, please let's have it! Share it! Even Gary, whom I respect, now alludes to the fact Mitose had training in Japan but it's 'secret squirrel', a reliable INFORMANT! Gary, in all due respect, this isn't a narcotics investigation, it's a search for the truth about our roots! Why be secretive about who has evidence that can clear this up? Your statement only makes us more cynical about the whole thing. If you've got something, please put it out there. John and I have pulled no punches about our sources. Everyone knows our information is connected to the A&E investigation, John was the first to break it! No mystery there. If you have something that shows Mitose studied in Japan, let's have it! If it's factual and the evidence stands undisputed I for one will be behind it 100 per cent. As a matter of fact, I still have information posted on my walls at the school that connects Mitose to Japan as the 21st decendant of Kosho ryu, i even have his picture up and why? because I'm holding out as long as I can if it can be proved that this is true! Please believe me, I won't be all disappointed if it turns out to be true. It will be a lot easier for me, I won't have to re-write everything I have posted at my school, lol. So, guys, I apologize if I offended anyone, I just got a little fustrated because John, myself and others are kept being told that you guys have the evidence but no one, none of the powers to be of Kosho, come out and simply present it! Let me go to my documents and post what I have up in my school and you will see it puts the Mitose history according to the Kosho people in a very positive light, so believe me, I'm not your enemy, I hope you guys prove it but how much longer do I have to wait? Let me go to my documents and post it here and then you can tell me if anyone thiunks I'm not being fair to the Kosho Shorei Ryu organization. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras


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## Karazenpo

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi guys. yeah, I shouldn't have implied that you guys are getting conned by Juchnik, like I said before I have heard many positive things about him but I just get a little fustrated when this subject comes up and here's why. I was never a Mitose detractor. I took what I was told as the the histroy and passed it on to my students. Then, many began to question this history. I didn't want to be like others I knew in the arts over the years that would pass out misinformation and perpetuate myths and have my students think I was full of sh-t when the truth came out!, lol. So, I began to dig for the truth or at least as close to the truth as one can get when researching history. The reason of my fustration and why I mentioned the 'con' thing was that if you have information that can put this to rest once and for all, please let's have it! Share it! Even Gary, whom I respect, now alludes to the fact Mitose had training in Japan but it's 'secret squirrel', a reliable INFORMANT! Gary, in all due respect, this isn't a narcotics investigation, it's a search for the truth about our roots! Why be secretive about who has evidence that can clear this up? Your statement only makes us more cynical about the whole thing. If you've got something, please put it out there. John and I have pulled no punches about our sources. Everyone knows our information is connected to the A&E investigation, John was the first to break it! No mystery there. If you have something that shows Mitose studied in Japan, let's have it! If it's factual and the evidence stands undisputed I for one will be behind it 100 per cent. As a matter of fact, I still have information posted on my walls at the school that connects Mitose to Japan as the 21st decendant of Kosho ryu, i even have his picture up and why? because I'm holding out as long as I can if it can be proved that this is true! Please believe me, I won't be all disappointed if it turns out to be true. It will be a lot easier for me, I won't have to re-write everything I have posted at my school, lol. So, guys, I apologize if I offended anyone, I just got a little fustrated because John, myself and others are kept being told that you guys have the evidence but no one, none of the powers to be of Kosho, come out and simply present it! Let me go to my documents and post what I have up in my school and you will see it puts the Mitose history according to the Kosho people in a very positive light, so believe me, I'm not your enemy, I hope you guys prove it but how much longer do I have to wait? Let me go to my documents and post it here and then you can tell me if anyone thiunks I'm not being fair to the Kosho Shorei Ryu organization. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras



Okay, here's what I have posted at my school originally, I did add a last paragraph later that stated Mitose also received training form Nabura Tanamaha of the Choki Motobu lineage of Okinawan Kenpo.



                                      Great Grandmaster James Masayoshi Mitose

                                             21st Descendant Kosho Ryu Kempo

     As many of you know, I have been doing a pretty comprehensive background check on the history of James M. Mitose and his contributions to our Kempo/Kajukenbo systems. I have been trying to be totally objective and I was never, originally, a Mitose detractor. I became disenchanted with the Mitose history when it just wouldn't hold up to scutiny, not in the least bit. In my quest, I have found some answers. Nothing will ever be totally clear and objective when it comes to the history of any martial art but what I am looking for is some factual evidence, some circumstantial evidence, a little logic and a basic framework of the man's legacy that makes sense. I have had my ups and down on it and my investigation is still not complete but here is what I feel is reasonable so far:

Let's start with Jinshi Eison, fact or fiction? Well, yes and no. Don't get me wrong I have a definite answer on that but it has a little explaining. Jinshi Eison lived in just the right time period we are looking at, circa. 1200. He studied in China, his Buddhist name was Kosho Bosatsu. So, it looks legit, right? Wrong. The Kanji used for Kosho in this case did not mean 'old pine tree'. It's like the kanji used for kara in karate. It can mean China (Tang) or empty. Eison's life was extremely well documented and nothing lined up and matched.

However, according to Mitose, Kosho ryu is a sect of Zen Buddhism based on the Rinzai Zen which was introduced into Japan in 1191 by the priest Eisai. Mitose considered Eisai, and for that matter Rinzai (lin chi) and Daruma himself as being his ancestors. This is something he prided himself on. Jinshi Eisan was a misinterpretation of Mitose's words (his English was poor). 1191 was when the religious Rinzai sect (lin chi) Kosho Shorei Ryu was founded. The martial art, Kosho Ryu wasn't developed until about 350 years later, around 1560. The Tracy's begin their lineage (which I will get to shortly) at 1232 AD with Zenko Yoshida. Not only is that the wrong clan but you couldn't possibly have 21 descendants to Mitose in that time period.  Martial art ryus weren't developed that early on, those were the religious rinzai sects that started around circa.1200, the martial art came much later. They're about 350 years off!

The Yoshida lineage leads to dead ends and where did Kosho come from? Mitose had three grandfathers. Records provided to Shihan Michael Brown, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai historian, shows three families from Japan. 1) the Mitose family (his father's side), 2) the Yoshida family (his mother's biological father), and the Kosho family (his mother's biological mother). Mitose's maternal grandparents were not married. His mother was raised by her biological father (Mr. Yoshida) until she was 17 years old, then she was adopted by her biological mother who had married into the Kosho family. Besides the obvious connection with the name Kosho, this was the only grandfather alive when Mitose arrived in Japan in October of 1920.

James Mitose's maternal grandparents were Yoshida Sakuhei (the father of Mitose Kyoka).
Kosho Toju (the mother of Mitose Kiyoka). Mitose's grandmother was not the wife of Mr. Yoshida. Kiyoka was the result of an affair. This is in the family record.

The Tracy Yoshida lineage to Kosho ryu has no merit. They do not go back to the family art of Kosho. Thje Kosho art goes back 21 generations. Mitose's grandfather that he learned the family art from was Kosho Kyohei. This is recorded in the family records although there is no written proof that he trained at the Shaka In Temple as of yet and may never be. There are records there mentioning the term Kosho ryu. A local historian, whom I do not have his name as of this posting, stated martial arts was being practiced there up until just before WW2. The Tracy's are barking up the wrong tree, lineage tree that is! They traced the wrong grandfather, Yoshida Sakuhei.  He wasn't even alive when Mitose was 4 years old.

Shaka In temple. Kosho monks and martial arts: truth or fiction?  Documents provided and further research to confirm this on the internet into historical records shows that in October of 1588 the warrior monks of Shaka In clashed with the forces of Konishi Yukinaga. The battlefield is perserved to this day.

I gratefully acknowledge the assistance of Shihan Mike Brown, historian of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai for his tireless and unselfish efforts in researching this' tangled web'.   All that I have learned in this post came from Shihan Brown's research and I take no credit for it other than my continuing efforts in a search for the truth on this enigma.            Respectfully, Shihan Joe Shuras

*More information and further confirmations will be posted when made available.


----------



## GAB

Hi John,
Thanks for the information regarding the incident, been going on over the last few decades.:idunno: 

Lets see, S/W, I was there in the middle 70's, Working Metro. Nice area. Especially if you are into crime fighting. The name was changed to protect the image, you can't have one of the highest crime rates and do the Olympics twice. Bradley was a smart fellow.

The information came from a different source, LOL..
Quick and so early? Must be normal for you?

Regarding the information on Sijo, It came out of the Tracy Camp.
Does that surprise you? LOL... 
I am glad it was wrong, I was feeling bummed.

Thanks, Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor Joe,

I was using that term to bring up memories from a place faraway and a term only, "cop talk is understood here". Who else would put that to a Narco bust or a Vice caper? Well now wait, there are a lot of cop shows, so maybe I need to think differently.

Good pick up Joe, I was going to say you are up early like John but, Hey, three hours ahead of us, heck it is almost time for brunch.  Or in Vice we were working the bars and having our second beer and talking about women, placing a bet on the track or sportsbook. 

Now it is all going strong, the rage and then some. Do they still do that, "Arrest" for just having a good time? 

Chinatown, now that was a crime free area. Why do you think LAPD dropped the height limit from 5' 8" we needed people to work Ctown. 
Trivia, and it is the truth. 
Plus the fact that we needed women to come on to the job, at that time 5' 8" was pretty tall for the opposite sex. 
Did they have height requirements when you went on Joe? 

We did, so many things, that it was very narrow, unable to find anyone to fit the mold, or someones thoughts as to what was needed. 
Now you talk like that and people think you are a bigot. 
Back then, Webster said  "bigot" was a man with a mustache. Hmmm lots of them on the street, no wonder they made me?

I am 6' 2" weighed 190 on the job for many of the years, now I am a petit 223 lbs. my wife reminds me it is the additonal muscle mass. (muscle is heavier than chubby, so why isn't my waist still 35",) wives are very one sided, Love ain't it grand . Going on 42 years now, who would of thought when kicking doors and other objects?:idunno: 

Okey back to today. No problem Professor, I like your spirit, and your information, we are coming up with a file on the perp, back in a few. 

Everyone else is using smily, so why not me?
Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Kelly, you definitely misunderstood my post when I said SINCERE! Where the heck does Terry 'The Killer' Lee come into this???? I'm talking about the guys who made those prison visits and who I had foremost in mind was Professor Eugene Sedeno who I have the utmost respect and admiration for!! You're telling me that Terry Lee visited Mitose in prison? If so I never heard that one before.


 "Also, in the back of my mind I was thinking the same thing John Bishop had posted when he said Mitose's Kosho Ryu thing when he was in prison was another scam of trapping some honest and sincere people into doing his bidding as he did with Terry Lee back in 1971! " 
Prof Shuras

I've been away from the computer for a couple of days and I did not realize this was going to cause that much controversy. At first glance when I read this statement. I thought it was written in such a way as to say that Terry Lee was being duped by Mitose. After rereading I believe You were trying to say He was complicent with mitose in committing the crime. Holding with my personal policy of appologizing when I am wrong, I apologize.
As far as Mitose being a con man and a felon(thankyou Mekugi) as allways I could not agree more. As far as the statement of sounding cocky I know your not Joe. I also am a little familliar with fraud and con men as I spent a couple of years in the private investigation field specializing in worker's compensation cases. I spent a lot of time sitting in the back of a van shooting video of poeple doing things they said they Physically could not do. On occasion I would run on to cases where the claimant was actually injured. While this does not make me an expert on the level of you, John, and Gary. I do believe it gives me a basis of knowledge from which to draw some conclusions from.
As far as the statements that you made Joe about what "you guys say" and about the evidence "we" have "we" being Abregana, Bishop, and yourself. Since when did you stop being objective and start being part of the "we". I have always stated that If it was proven Mitose never went to Japan I wouldn't have a problem with it.
 As far as the Shotokan lineage issue. The emphasis of my statement was that although the lineage goes back to China it was shaped by the culture when it hit Okinawa. I appologize if I did not make that clear. I figured you'd know that considering our phone conversation where you told me that proffesor Cerio told you about Parker changing things to suit a specific enviroment(same concept). Im sorry, I guess it's my fault I did not explain it better. As far as The Kosho group having to prove it's claims I don't agree the story of Mitose's going to Japan and comming back has been around for many years. I believe that it is the people making the claims of the opposite that have something to prove. I have yet to see the alleged proof that Mitose never left Hawaii. All I have seen so far is inuendo based on Mitose's Criminal activity. So let's see the proof that shows otherwise and if it shows Mitose never left Hawaii I'm right there with ya.

Kell

P.S. 
Are you a gambling man? I wouldn't bet agains't me in being able to prove Mitose went to Japan.


----------



## The Kai

How long was Mitose supposedly in Japan for?


----------



## Karazenpo

Hi Kell! Hey, believe it or not I agree with 99 per cent of what you said and I know sometimes things are miscontrued, so shi-t happens, lol, no problem but what I still disagree with and have a problem with is the Kosho people make the stand that Mitose studied in Japan, why is it not proper to ask you to show us? I have been asked over the years in conversations on different forums in the past when I used my signature as: 'Shihan' Joe Shuras, as if I self annoited myself the title, 'Shihan'. I had no problem with giving the exact date of my title and rank, a copy of my certificate and the current head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo to back it up and I can do the same for my title of 'Professor'! I use titles in correspondence only out of respect to the grandmasters that awarded me such! No ego involved! I didn't give it to myself but received it ( Professor) through the Hawaiian Martial Arts International Society, I didn't pay to get it, I didn't ask for it, I didn't misrepresent myself to get it, I didn't kiss butt to get it and I can back that up, so why is it so difficult to get a straight answer about Mitose from the Kosho people? Why? C'ome on guys, it's getting pretty thin, I honestly don't believe you guys even believe it and if you do, fine, give some proof and if not, well, as they say in court, CASE DISMISSED!


----------



## GAB

Hi Kai,
He was there in his formative years, evough that he had a hard time learning the english language, When he was in his teens he went back to Hawaii.
Regards, Gary


----------



## BlackCatBonz

prof joe.......i really sense some bitter hostility towards the students of kosho, and i ask myself.....where does it come from. you have all this talk about titles and rankings, and i mean no disrespect when i say this, but if those titles are the result of a lying cheating conman with a story far outliving his life....why should we put any creedence into them, as you show none for us. this does not seem to be in the spirit of learning and teaching, and frankly it scares me when people feel this way and are teaching others war arts.

any kosho student i talk to studies the art for the art, not all the BS. and you will never hear me bashing anyone. too many people are living in the past, and getting caught up in it. i think its a safe bet to say that as kosho students in 2004 we are being taught something a bit more than punching, kicking, and putting the hurt into people. many martial arts teachers preach about kindness and respect and "seeing the good in man"......but get them away from the dojo and that all changes.....then human nature reveals its ugly head. As people living together in the world you would think we would practice some of what we try to instill into the students that look to us for guidance, i for one would be embarrassed to have any student of mine read some of the things that are said.

are we really that worried about rank? is it really about respect? are we so willing to throw our lessons out the window and come across as schmucks?
im not.....i want to learn and give back........ive been given a gift, that I in turn must give back. and while giving it back i will not turn to the man or men that gave it to me and slap them in the face.

respectfully,
shawn bailey


----------



## John Bishop

I think for the most part we have been trying to discuss history here.   So why would anyone want to teach history that they know is probably false?  It's almost like they want to convince their students that their history is something more special and spiritual ("a temple art") then other arts, and their headmaster (who was in reality a career criminal) was a spiritual man with many virtues.

I will ask 2 more simple questions:
James Mitose claimed that his temple once trained over 200 monks.
So where are the martial arts descendants of these 200 monks?
And why is there no Kosho Ryu Kenpo practiced anywhere in Japan?


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor,

I think the official word is going to come out pretty soon but it will be by Hanshi Bruce himself. 

He does not put much stock in the web and the flaming that goes on and the constant bickering. :whip: 

The Gathering for this year will be at the end of the month, I think he will probably give out the information then. 

Different strokes for different folks, I think he looks at it like hearsay, if he does it at a formal Gathering or to a credited news person (media) it is better.

I think Kell will go into it more, since he has been explaining it to me just today.

Now back to the idea of proof, if a road has been traveled on many times who is to say it is not the right one. If you don't agree on the placement of the road or where it fits into the city planners idea, it is up to you to change it.

I remember a while back I saw a trickle of malcontent and no one addressed it much. I talked to Hanshi and he said to me "beware of the nit pickers" he has used that term since GM Mitose said that to him in his visits. 

Gary don't worry, I have been dealing with this going on 25 years, I just work hard and keep going. It is not something I worry about. 

I said, how about I do something to get it to the surface, It has been festering and I see it coming to a head to mess with the seminar. 

He said you mean the "Gathering"? I said, yes, he smiled and said "I have been putting on these gatherings for a long time, I don't think it matters to the people who know me."  I appreciate your thoughts but if you want to do it or not it won't make any difference, spend your time training and learning what you are after.... So I am, and here I am and that is the reason I started this thread.  :flame: 

Not much else has been said about it until recently, I told him I was still stirring, he laughed, OK, you do what you have to do, and I will do what I need to do, which is get ready for the Gathering.

So here we are, I am not saying that is the perfect word for word, but it is close as I remember it.  :idunno: 

If you asked Hanshi he probably would say, Gary said something I am not sure, Gary asks a lot of questions and then would laugh. 

He would love to put it to rest, he thought he had, but it just keeps coming back every decade or so. It is always in the smoldering stage, but it goes into a flame and then is quenched. The next group comes along and on and on.:jedi1: :mp5: 

I think you will see it wet down pretty good this time. IMHO..

Regards, Gary:asian:


----------



## BlackCatBonz

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I think for the most part we have been trying to discuss history here. So why would anyone want to teach history that they know is probably false? It's almost like they want to convince their students that their history is something more special and spiritual ("a temple art") then other arts, and their headmaster (who was in reality a career criminal) was a spiritual man with many virtues.
> 
> I will ask 2 more simple questions:
> James Mitose claimed that his temple once trained over 200 monks.
> So where are the martial arts descendants of these 200 monks?
> And why is there no Kosho Ryu Kenpo practiced anywhere in Japan?


i think the claim is 400 monks.
after Konishi had the temple destroyed the arts were passed on in secret. which goes right along with japanese history. the shogunate at the time outlawed the practice of martial arts by monks because they were a threat to political power. 
and its not uncommon for a martial art to be handed down to family members only, as we all know

shawn


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think the claim is 400 monks.
> after Konishi had the temple destroyed the arts were passed on in secret. which goes right along with japanese history. the shogunate at the time outlawed the practice of martial arts by monks because they were a threat to political power.
> and its not uncommon for a martial art to be handed down to family members only, as we all know
> 
> shawn


Boy that's a stretch.  You mean the abandoned Shaka in temple that still exists at Mt. Kinkai is a reproduction?  Mitose was born in 1916, long after the end of the Shogun era.  
Your story sounds surprizingly like the Shaolin Temple story.  Burn't down temple, martial arts practice by monks outlawed.  It appears that the Shaolin story is true, but yet there in no problem finding Shaolin Kung Fu in China, or anywhere else in the world.


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> He was there in his formative years, evough that he had a hard time learning the english language, When he was in his teens he went back to Hawaii.
> Regards, Gary


Sure, he was born in Hawaii though?  How many of his formative yrs did he spend in Japan??


----------



## GAB

Hi Kai,
You use the term Sure. May I ask how you are using that?
Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Boy that's a stretch. You mean the abandoned Shaka in temple that still exists at Mt. Kinkai is a reproduction? Mitose was born in 1916, long after the end of the Shogun era.
> Your story sounds surprizingly like the Shaolin Temple story. Burn't down temple, martial arts practice by monks outlawed. It appears that the Shaolin story is true, but yet there in no problem finding Shaolin Kung Fu in China, or anywhere else in the world.


Hi John, I have often thought about that, reacurring story. I am of the opinion that there was fire and destruction. Rebuilding etc. Kinda like in the old west, where many towns burned down (all or part) rebuilt and continue or move on and build somewhere else. 
Good question though(regarding the followers),
Maybe they were purged during the war years? 
It will be interesting to find out, I wish I was able to finalize it, but I am not. (don't have all the facts etc) Could go back to what you are saying conman, some of the story is true, other parts prefabricated. (similar to the book he published in the late 40's and early 50's).

His sister was part of the book, did anyone ever talk to her?

Like I said last night I guess we will have to wait for a little bit, until Hanshi wants to put the information out at the "Gathering".

In the mean time is there any that disproves it?

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> You use the term Sure. May I ask how you are using that?
> Regards, Gary


Sure as in "OK" or "right" ???? Does that answer yopur question?
Todd


----------



## GAB

Hi Kai,

I myself, wonder if the person who, left (hawaii) came back, or ended up in prison is the same, very nice looking young man, I would think they had fingerprints, but:idunno:.

Formative, early part of his child hood, by some standard younger then thought at the time he was moving around.

Can we say Japan was in a very long period of war 1901 until 1945? In one place or another. Some of the worst atrocities have been attributed to them long before that time and certainly during that time. 

So if one is brought up in that type of culture are we to hold them to standards later placed on them by a culture very much different? Yes, and it could have been why, he was not given the death penalty.:idunno: 

Not knowing all the facts and probably never will (but am trying, just for the truth of it), I am sure (used differently) we will find out more now that the computer age is in and more infomation is available and given out, for one reason or another. (agenda comes to mind) 

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Right, so assuming Mitose was'nt replaced by a duplicate - How long was he in Japan.

IMHO - almost every culture country bans, prohibs or outlaws murder.  What happens in a War is not the normal arc of that particular civalization.  As we know it (at least with the facts at hand) Mitose was'nt part of either factions war efforts - So why would athe atrocities affect(or danmage) his reasoning?  Please forgive my spelling and grammer I am not a writer by any strech of the imagination
Todd


----------



## GAB

Hi Kai,

I was just going to kiss you off, since you are not listening to me, but I don't really want that feeling. 

:ultracool I wasn't privy to the information until a few minutes ago. I made a phone call since you were so persistant and no one else is talking (they must be savoring this information and are gloating about it)...:supcool: 
When I became as persistant as you, I got more information to share, so I will say, *thank you* for your persistance. It helped, since I am out here by myself, it appears...:whip:  

I just heard a few minutes before I started this post, that the Juchnik camp has government documents (USA) that validify his (Mitose) claim to being in Japan.

The time frame as I understand is approx. 15 to 17 years give or take, if that was continuously I am not sure. So that is all I know. :idunno: 

Further posts regarding this particular, you might want to ask Kell.

If you want to share with me please do. :asian:

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

The Kai said:
			
		

> Right, so assuming Mitose was'nt replaced by a duplicate - How long was he in Japan.
> 
> IMHO - almost every culture country bans, prohibs or outlaws murder. What happens in a War is not the normal arc of that particular civalization. As we know it (at least with the facts at hand) Mitose was'nt part of either factions war efforts - So why would athe atrocities affect(or danmage) his reasoning? Please forgive my spelling and grammer I am not a writer by any strech of the imagination
> Todd


 :mp5:

Todd, I am looking at your postion 5th, This is what you purport. 

Now if you don't understand and fail to comprehend the influence on someone from or with the up bringing (age especially) of  that particular culture (prior to our intervention, USA). I can't help you any further.

Last but not least, I think he was a spy (double)...:idunno: I also believe he was a paid informant for years in the USA IMHO... 

Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

The answer is 17 years.

kell


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> :mp5:
> 
> Todd, I am looking at your postion 5th, This is what you purport.
> 
> Now if you don't understand and fail to comprehend the influence on someone from or with the up bringing (age especially) of that particular culture (prior to our intervention, USA). I can't help you any further.
> 
> Last but not least, I think he was a spy (double)...:idunno: I also believe he was a paid informant for years in the USA IMHO...
> 
> Regards, Gary


 
What does position 5th mean? 

I agree there are cultural differnces between peoples of the world that manifest themselves through relatioons between man&wife-how monies are spent
But in my limited exposure I have'nt seem a culture that says murder your neighbor.
I was'nt really looking for your help, Thank you though for your largesse.  i was merely curious


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Kell! Hey, believe it or not I agree with 99 per cent of what you said and I know sometimes things are miscontrued, so shi-t happens, lol, no problem but what I still disagree with and have a problem with is the Kosho people make the stand that Mitose studied in Japan, why is it not proper to ask you to show us? I have been asked over the years in conversations on different forums in the past when I used my signature as: 'Shihan' Joe Shuras, as if I self annoited myself the title, 'Shihan'. I had no problem with giving the exact date of my title and rank, a copy of my certificate and the current head of Nick Cerio's Kenpo to back it up and I can do the same for my title of 'Professor'! I use titles in correspondence only out of respect to the grandmasters that awarded me such! No ego involved! I didn't give it to myself but received it ( Professor) through the Hawaiian Martial Arts International Society, I didn't pay to get it, I didn't ask for it, I didn't misrepresent myself to get it, I didn't kiss butt to get it and I can back that up, so why is it so difficult to get a straight answer about Mitose from the Kosho people? Why? C'ome on guys, it's getting pretty thin, I honestly don't believe you guys even believe it and if you do, fine, give some proof and if not, well, as they say in court, CASE DISMISSED!


 Doesn't It go both ways I have yet to see evidence to the contrary. So at this point I would call it a stalemate. Have you seen the evidence to the contrary Joe?  All I have seen so far are conclusions drawn from the mans criminal activity. No one has shown anyone any supposed proof to the contrary. As far as I am cocerned until any proof to the contrary is firmly established I am about done with these threads. I'll come on these disscussions and throw you guys a bone once and a while.
First bone Thomas Mitose Isn't James's oldest child.

kell


----------



## Mekugi

Under what name was he in Japan?



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Kai,
> 
> I just heard a few minutes before I started this post, that the Juchnik camp has government documents (USA) that validify his (Mitose) claim to being in Japan.
> The time frame as I understand is approx. 15 to 17 years give or take, if that was continuously I am not sure. So that is all I know
> Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi,
Kai, 5th degree BB???:asian: I missed a comma,. Postion should be position...
See how easy it is to fail to communicate and we are only minutes away with posts and information,  verse's fifty + years and much paperwork?

Mekugi:idunno: ?

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think the claim is 400 monks.
> after Konishi had the temple destroyed the arts were passed on in secret. which goes right along with japanese history. the shogunate at the time outlawed the practice of martial arts by monks because they were a threat to political power.
> and its not uncommon for a martial art to be handed down to family members only, as we all know
> shawn


This is another example of teaching your students incorrect history to back up your claims. 
The truth about Japanese history:
"The Shogun, Keiki, voluntarily surrendered his administrative powers to the youthful Emperor, Meiji, in November 1867. So ended the 2-1/2 centuries of Tokugawa rule, and on December 9, 1867, the Imperial Restoration was formally proclaimed. Thus ending of the Shogunate, and starting the Restoration of the Emperor."
So, since Mitose was born in 1916, he totally missed out on the Shogun Era, and the burning of his temple is a invalid reason for their being no Kosho Ryu descendants/practitioners in modern Japan.


----------



## The Kai

John Bishop said:
			
		

> This is another example of teaching your students incorrect history to back up your claims.
> The truth about Japanese history:
> "The Shogun, Keiki, voluntarily surrendered his administrative powers to the youthful Emperor, Meiji, in November 1867. So ended the 2-1/2 centuries of Tokugawa rule, and on December 9, 1867, the Imperial Restoration was formally proclaimed. Thus ending of the Shogunate, and starting the Restoration of the Emperor."
> So, since Mitose was born in 1916, he totally missed out on the Shogun Era, and the burning of his temple is a invalid reason for their being no Kosho Ryu descendants/practitioners in modern Japan.


Mr Bishop
Just to play devils advocate - that is only 50 yrs between the bisbanding of the the Shogan(ate) and Mitose's birth.  Maybe it is possible for the Kosho - sect to survive "underground" for 2 generations?
But, it would seem there would more of them around in Japan.

Mitose a Spy?  IMHO the murder happened years after the war-what would the connection be?
Gary I agree history is a tricky business (we can hardly state what happens today with clear authority).  It comes down to me believing my myths and you>>>>well you get the point
Todd


----------



## John Bishop

The Kai said:
			
		

> Mr Bishop
> Just to play devils advocate - that is only 50 yrs between the bisbanding of the the Shogan(ate) and Mitose's birth. Maybe it is possible for the Kosho - sect to survive "underground" for 2 generations?
> Todd


I'am talking about descendants of monks who trained at the temple during the time Mitose was supposedly there training.  Or was he the only monk there at the time? Maybe the last surviving monk of some type of disaster that wiped out all the other monks and any trace of their history. :bs1: 


Funny thing, the Shaka In temple on Mt. Kinkai is still standing, and it has it own history of Buddhist practice.  And it's history names it's sect of buddhism and the founder.  Nowhere in it's history is any mention of the Mitose family, Kosho family, or Yoshida family, etc., etc.


----------



## Mekugi

The problem I have is mix-and-match history and culture within these posts. The Jesuits were influencing the Shogunate during the early 1600' and late 1500's, so yes terra were torched for political reasons. Accordingly, there were many hundreds of other temples that could fit the description Mr. Mitose gave in his testimony (and personally, to people) that underwent the rites of passage for kindling. So, the proof is going to have to be in the form of documentation, which is ironically my next topic. Handing down a martial art within a Japanese family _does not_ mean that there were no documents or records. That is completely contradictory to the Japan that existed in the past and the one that exists now. There was a reason for keeping records and that was namely to keep those who fake a name, fake a lineage or fake a scool of martial arts out of the circle of those "in the know". Records and pedigree did (and do) just that. Now, if someone comes up with these: game over! You have your pedigree then all this bickering comes to an end. Until these things are produced, however, people are going to be treading water in place for a while and coincidences will surely remain just speculation and conjecture. It makes for good conversation, not for good history.


It is like the stories of Ponce DeLeon in Florida. Most people seem to think that this guy went in search of the fountain of youth. However, despite heavy official documentation to state otherwise, he most certainly did not. A bunch of fanciful writers came up with this story passed along word of mouth tales and then recorded this falsehood in their writings. So, people kept coming up with this as a fact rather than a piece of romantic fiction. Ponce went to Florida looking for riches and this is true; he went looking for wealth and slaves and there is absolutely NO indication that he went looking for a fountain or any other mythical items. It was even reported back to Spanish Royals by their official recorder that he had made attempts to find the fountain of youth; however these are simply words without meaning or background in fact to inspire royalty to send funds and keep interests. This is simply an absurd notion that has prevailed over the ages without any more than a bunch of stories to found itself in meanwhile there is absolute proof to the contrary, supporting that the fountain of youth yarn is simply a pack of lies. Now, looking at the current state of things within this thread- even if it is disproved and all are shown up one way or the other, will this stop the stories or the beliefs?



			
				John Bishop said:
			
		

> This is another example of teaching your students incorrect history to back up your claims.
> The truth about Japanese history:
> "The Shogun, Keiki, voluntarily surrendered his administrative powers to the youthful Emperor, Meiji, in November 1867. So ended the 2-1/2 centuries of Tokugawa rule, and on December 9, 1867, the Imperial Restoration was formally proclaimed. Thus ending of the Shogunate, and starting the Restoration of the Emperor."
> So, since Mitose was born in 1916, he totally missed out on the Shogun Era, and the burning of his temple is a invalid reason for their being no Kosho Ryu descendants/practitioners in modern Japan.


----------



## kelly keltner

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I'am talking about descendants of monks who trained at the temple during the time Mitose was supposedly there training. Or was he the only monk there at the time? Maybe the last surviving monk of some type of disaster that wiped out all the other monks and any trace of their history. :bs1:
> 
> 
> Funny thing, the Shaka In temple on Mt. Kinkai is still standing, and it has it own history of Buddhist practice. And it's history names it's sect of buddhism and the founder. Nowhere in it's history is any mention of the Mitose family, Kosho family, or Yoshida family, etc., etc.


bone#2 the yoshida, Komatsu(kosho), and one other family owned the land the temple sits on.


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> prof joe.......i really sense some bitter hostility towards the students of kosho, and i ask myself.....where does it come from. you have all this talk about titles and rankings, and i mean no disrespect when i say this, but if those titles are the result of a lying cheating conman with a story far outliving his life....why should we put any creedence into them, as you show none for us. this does not seem to be in the spirit of learning and teaching, and frankly it scares me when people feel this way and are teaching others war arts.
> 
> any kosho student i talk to studies the art for the art, not all the BS. and you will never hear me bashing anyone. too many people are living in the past, and getting caught up in it. i think its a safe bet to say that as kosho students in 2004 we are being taught something a bit more than punching, kicking, and putting the hurt into people. many martial arts teachers preach about kindness and respect and "seeing the good in man"......but get them away from the dojo and that all changes.....then human nature reveals its ugly head. As people living together in the world you would think we would practice some of what we try to instill into the students that look to us for guidance, i for one would be embarrassed to have any student of mine read some of the things that are said.
> 
> are we really that worried about rank? is it really about respect? are we so willing to throw our lessons out the window and come across as schmucks?
> im not.....i want to learn and give back........ive been given a gift, that I in turn must give back. and while giving it back i will not turn to the man or men that gave it to me and slap them in the face.
> 
> respectfully,
> shawn bailey



Not at all, Shawn. Please go back and read my post#94. I have good freinds in Kosho. Shawn, I'm a cop and I couldn't conceive of making an arrest, let's say for murder, and going to court and giving NO EVIDENCE but my word! I would be laughed at, sued and then fired! Think about it. All we ask is to have proof so when we state the Kosho version of history if called on it then we can back it up, that's all. I'm being very sincere when I say that. What do I say when I repeat Mitose's history and I'm called upon to give some verification other than 'I was told so'...........


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Doesn't It go both ways I have yet to see evidence to the contrary. So at this point I would call it a stalemate. Have you seen the evidence to the contrary Joe?  All I have seen so far are conclusions drawn from the mans criminal activity. No one has shown anyone any supposed proof to the contrary. As far as I am cocerned until any proof to the contrary is firmly established I am about done with these threads. I'll come on these disscussions and throw you guys a bone once and a while.
> First bone Thomas Mitose Isn't James's oldest child.
> 
> kell



Okay, Kell, I'll throw you a bone, lol, James Mitose isn't his real name, that's why people have trouble checking his history. Do you have his real name? John and I do! I'll call Professor Abregana and if he says it's okay to release it before the A&E series then I'll post it here. Do you have it?


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> bone#2 the yoshida, Komatsu(kosho), and one other family owned the land the temple sits on.



Man, Kelly. Did you read my post#95???????? What's this Yoshida BS? My post #95 states at the bottom that the info. was not mine but was supplied by the well respected Shihan Mike Brown of Rhode Island, historian for the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai. What does Shihan Brown say of Yoshida and the Tracy claim? Now you're arguing with guys in your own organization, that's my bone#2.....lol.


----------



## kelly keltner

are we talking about masaichi or masayoshi Mitose or a different alias? Because James wasn't ever supposedly his legal first name. Or is it a completly different name?

kell


----------



## kelly keltner

no I'm not arguing with our own people, but geographicly speaking what I said about who owned the land is true. I did not say that is where his martial lineage comes from. 
let me know if that's the best you got.


----------



## kelly keltner

This puppies on a two bone a day diet talk to ya tommorow.

kelly


----------



## BlackCatBonz

john.......the temple was burned down in 1588 by a christian daimyo........and rebuilt due to another daimyo that was buddhist friendly. i think its almost common knowledge to people who have studied japanese history as to the struggle for political power by the military, clergy, and imperial family. obviously the military gained and maintained control for centuries, but not without constant clashing with the clergy and the heimen. you're getting snippets of info from google......how about some hard research. no disrespect intended.

shawn bailey


----------



## GAB

Hi You guys, 
I have to much respect for most of you and I am not going to get into a bickering disolution of a pretty good thread, so I will again say I am going to let this go for a while and hopefully we don't get into a hassle.

Seems there is a hostility that has finally emerged, I have also asked quite a few questions that have not been addressed so until they are I won't worry about this last couple of digressions.

Myth, I don't think so.

Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> are we talking about masaichi or masayoshi Mitose or a different alias? Because James wasn't ever supposedly his legal first name. Or is it a completly different name?
> 
> kell


 i'm sorry that might be masakichi


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> john.......the temple was burned down in 1588 by a christian daimyo........and rebuilt due to another daimyo that was buddhist friendly. i think its almost common knowledge to people who have studied japanese history as to the struggle for political power by the military, clergy, and imperial family. obviously the military gained and maintained control for centuries, but not without constant clashing with the clergy and the heimen. you're getting snippets of info from google......how about some hard research. no disrespect intended.
> 
> shawn bailey


What does 1588 have to do with the descendents of monks who trained with Mitose in the 1900s?


p.s. Gary, I don't think anyone here is getting out of line or disrespectful toward each other.  We're having a good debate here. Unlike some of the people who think they're above discussions on talk forums, everyone here is contributing information.  How are we ever going to find the truth if everyone holds back what information they have.


----------



## Karazenpo

John Bishop said:
			
		

> What does 1588 have to do with the descendents of monks who trained with Mitose in the 1900s?
> 
> 
> p.s. Gary, I don't think anyone here is getting out of line or disrespectful toward each other.  We're having a good debate here. Unlike some of the people who think they're above discussions on talk forums, everyone here is contributing information.  How are we ever going to find the truth if everyone holds back what information they have.



First of all, Gary, John is RIGHT! No disrespect from anyone, just one helluva good debate! Yeah, there were a few misunderstandings but we cleared them up. I'm not upset with anyone's opinion, this is just getting good! lol. Okay, kelly, No, that is not the name. I have the name and so does John but I don't know as of yet if I can release it. Please believe me, I'm not playing games but I just have to check with Professor Abregana first, you know, sometimes you talk in confidence and I can't betray that trust but I will ask. However, now I have another question. If the Kosho ryu 'powers to be' are leveling with you with this information than how come you don't have Mitose's real name and we do? Kell, I'm not bust'n balls, I'm just trying to make a point, there's something wrong with this picture. I honestly do have the name and it's nothing close to what you posted.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

my reference to the 1588 razing of the temple, which coincides with japanese history, is merely a vehicle to show why mitose claimed that from that period forward the "family" art was practiced in secret. it was only then (after 4 centuries of fighting with the yamabushi, sohei, and their associations with the various displaced buke of the time) that the military of japan managed to get the upper hand and maintain its power. after that, the threats were mostly from farmer uprisings. 

all im doing is trying to give some japanese historical background, strictly for anyone that wants it. and that these events coincide with dates and some names that mitose mentioned.

and btw.........im all for debate, but mudslinging i cant stand. and prof joe, i know that you replied to my post but you missed an important element. but i hate beating a dead horse as much as the next guy.

can we not all agree on one thing......the past is the past, the present is the most important moment that you're living. as i have said before, i am interested in the history, but what i am more interested in is 2004, right now, and the teaching we give our students right now. some students will literally shape their lives on the teachings of an instructor they trust......not on the past, but on the lessons you teach right now.

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> my reference to the 1588 razing of the temple, which coincides with japanese history, is merely a vehicle to show why mitose claimed that from that period forward the "family" art was practiced in secret. it was only then (after 4 centuries of fighting with the yamabushi, sohei, and their associations with the various displaced buke of the time) that the military of japan managed to get the upper hand and maintain its power. after that, the threats were mostly from farmer uprisings.
> 
> all im doing is trying to give some japanese historical background, strictly for anyone that wants it. and that these events coincide with dates and some names that mitose mentioned.
> 
> and btw.........im all for debate, but mudslinging i cant stand. and prof joe, i know that you replied to my post but you missed an important element. but i hate beating a dead horse as much as the next guy.
> 
> can we not all agree on one thing......the past is the past, the present is the most important moment that you're living. as i have said before, i am interested in the history, but what i am more interested in is 2004, right now, and the teaching we give our students right now. some students will literally shape their lives on the teachings of an instructor they trust......not on the past, but on the lessons you teach right now.
> 
> shawn



Shawn, I couldn't have said it better, I didn't miss your point at all, I totally agree but you have to understand where John and I are coming from. We are looking at this aspect from a 'pure' historical point of view as an historian, we're just trying to get it right, that's all, no offense intended. Agreed, what counts is now but as historians we owe it to our students to get it straight or the best we can.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

prof joe.....are you going to be upset at either outcome of this story when it finally comes to pass? all of us that have our roots in kem(n)po as far as what is traced back to mitose could just be a lot of bull.........and to some people, i think that would suck big time. does that mean all of our rankings mean nothing? not in my book, because i think as a collective group we have stumbled onto something wonderful. notice i didnt use the word "create"? it is all out there waiting to be discovered, like the mysteries of life or the universe. 

i totally agree with your standpoint of being a purely historical point of veiw, as i am a huge fan of historical study. but it wasnt until last year when i realised there was such animosity between the different systems......and you must admit its there.....
i didnt even want to study kempo anymore just to get away from all the crap i heard.
but alas.......i love the current teaching and what it stands for, history be damned....lol
and thats why i keep coming back.....the process, the study.

respectfully

shawn bailey


----------



## KenpoDave

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> First bone Thomas Mitose Isn't James's oldest child.



Alvin, isn't it?  Used to run a record store in LA?


----------



## KenpoDave

John Bishop said:
			
		

> I will ask 2 more simple questions:
> James Mitose claimed that his temple once trained over 200 monks.
> So where are the martial arts descendants of these 200 monks?
> And why is there no Kosho Ryu Kenpo practiced anywhere in Japan?



I think the answer to both questions is in the name "Kosho Shorei Ryu."

The name was made up by Mitose to give clues to where it came from.  The reason that monks descendants cannot be found is because the art they practice is not called that in Japan.

My opinion only.


----------



## John Bishop

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> I think the answer to both questions is in the name "Kosho Shorei Ryu."
> 
> The name was made up by Mitose to give clues to where it came from. The reason that monks descendants cannot be found is because the art they practice is not called that in Japan.
> 
> My opinion only.


"Shorei Ryu" is a common Okinawan system.  But your saying that there is a "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo" style practiced in Japan?  And it's lineage goe's back to the Mitose's family temple?


----------



## John Bishop

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Alvin, isn't it? Used to run a record store in LA?


Alvin is actually the youngest of the 3 legitimate son's.  He and his older brother were son's of James and Dorothy (Ogata) Mitose.  Thomas Barro Mitose is the son of James and Mildred Mitose.  James also has a few illegitimate children in Hawaii.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

just a side note john.....great website!

shawn


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> just a side note john.....great website!
> 
> shawn


Thanks


----------



## GAB

Hi, 
Keep it coming I am learning stuff I never knew. Alvin? Who would of thought? Mildred, are we talking Japanese? Sounds like they fully blended?
If Mitose was a monk he sure didnt act like one. LOL, on either side of the bed.:uhyeah: 
Fusae Oshita, Masaichi Oshiro, now those are names I can relate to.:idunno: 

I thought monks in Japan were outcasts the family did not respect that and since the family was pretty much everything (Shinto), I know 21st generation and all that but I am getting a feeling that maybe some of this should be asked of Masters Thomas and Adriano, someone is holding and Ace?:idunno: 

I just read an article that said, when Bruce Lee called his art JKD, a name he put togeather, he got so much bad feed back, that he wished he never came up with the name. 

I was under the impression the name, was in the name (within), Like Dave said.

Regards, Gary:ultracool


----------



## The Kai

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> just a side note john.....great website!
> 
> shawn


Side Note #2 - Do you sell T-shirts still?
Todd


----------



## GAB

Hi, 
I was just going to add, when you are aquired (taken in war) as a country and become one with the country that has taken you hostage and changed your culture, are you with that country? Are, do you still remain a single enity and never give in?(like the IRA) just one that comes to mind...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Ok, now we need to accept that the arts came from China, Okinawa, Japan, Hawaii, Filipino, Korean and a little mixture of good old boxing, if it came from  Tai or USA?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Maternal, comes from the mothers side, Paternal comes from the fathers side, so if you are not sure of the one you come from? Are you able to pick and choose? Or switch when you feel like it?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




When you see a name with an ending with an i, is it masculine in Japan or is the name that ends with an o, or an a? Is there any connection like there is in the Romance languages, especially after the Jesuits came to Asia?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




What if you were to spell the word, with an i rather than an o does it still stay with the root name?

If we want to go there, it becomes obvious does it not?
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi John, How about the Kajukenbo books that are in spanish only... 

If they are avaliable I would like a few. Talk about interesting, the way things are going in CA. Does Sijo speak spanish? Being from the Filipino Islands. 

Here I thought that we won the War with the powers of Mejico, someone has not acquiesced of late.:idunno:

Regards, Gary:asian:


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> prof joe.....are you going to be upset at either outcome of this story when it finally comes to pass? all of us that have our roots in kem(n)po as far as what is traced back to mitose could just be a lot of bull.........and to some people, i think that would suck big time. does that mean all of our rankings mean nothing? not in my book, because i think as a collective group we have stumbled onto something wonderful. notice i didnt use the word "create"? it is all out there waiting to be discovered, like the mysteries of life or the universe.
> 
> i totally agree with your standpoint of being a purely historical point of veiw, as i am a huge fan of historical study. but it wasnt until last year when i realised there was such animosity between the different systems......and you must admit its there.....
> i didnt even want to study kempo anymore just to get away from all the crap i heard.
> but alas.......i love the current teaching and what it stands for, history be damned....lol
> and thats why i keep coming back.....the process, the study.
> 
> respectfully
> 
> shawn bailey



Hey Shawn, Actually, I hope it comes out that Mitose went to Japan, that his claims are based on some truth. I sincerely mean that. I believed it for years. I've posted it and answered as such when my students or others asked about our history. Like I stated in an earlier post, I still have it up on my wall at the school (see post#95). To be honest though, right now it doesn't seem this is so and as far as I know and I hope I'm mistaken, he never left Hawaii. Shawn, if you read my other posts you will see I feel a little differently than some of the others outside your system in regards to Mitose. Most, if not all pioneers in our related lineages of the Hawaiian derived Kenpo didn't have 'extensive' backgrounds in the arts when they went off and founded their own systems simply because it wasn't like that then. There were no vast curriculum, kenpo was newly introduced so they took the rudiments, worked the hell out of them and backed it up with hardcore training methods that few could stick with-the end result? A lineage of legendary tough as nails street fighters, not point sparrers or kata champions but reality fighters! I say: Nothing wrong with that and as I have said before: Mitose planted the seed that was nurtured and cultivated by others that evolved into some of the most practical and functional self defense systems in the world today. If it is released and proven as fact he never left Hawaii then this is how I see it. Mitose had some exposure, probably much to Professor Henry S. Okazaki's Danzan Ryu Jui Jitsu and he also studied Okinawan Shorei Ryu Kempo Karate through Nabura Tanamaha of the Choki Motobu lineage. Did he get his black belt? It seems not according to what I have been privy too. Do I have a problem with that? NO, because do you know how many others that came after him started their own thing and were not black belts? Back then the black belt too was recently intorduced in karate type styles. Wasn't it the Okinawans who decided to rank Funakoshi as a 5th degree black belt and hense start the belt ranking system around 1922? Did Matsumura or Itosu have a black belt? I have no problem with Mitose taking what he learned in Okinawan Kenpo and most likely throwing in some Danzan ryu adding his own perspective thus putting his own 'spin' on it and calling it, Shorinji Kenpo, then Kenpo Jui Jitsu, Kosho ryu Kenpo and then finally Kosho Shorei ryu Kenpo! I just wish we weren't misleaded. I also can seperate the criminal from the martial artist and his positive contributions and I totally feel as theTracys have stated: No Mitose-No Kenpo, not as we know it today anyway! However, I have to totally agree with John Bishop that, and I'll put it in my own words, it turns my stomach when I hear Kosho people referring to James Mitsoe as 'a man of peace', that's just plain B.S. and I think you would agree with me on that. So, Shawn, I am more with you than you think and I give credit when it's due but I just can't see hanging on to myths and misinformation any longer. Let's all have the truth, be it good or bad. Sincerely, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## GAB

Hi,

I have to go along with the FMA Classic on this thought, about, if you have a belt or a cert.:jedi1: 

If you advertise it you had better be ready for someone to walk in and challenge you to a duel. Choki and Gichin, knock you on your back side not once but three times, (so the story goes).:mp5: 

Of course we are a different society and dueling has been dropped when Hamilton was dropped, by Burr. We do go back to that, wirh a different thought, like the Civil War, that was a major duel. Wyatt Earp comes to mind, later on.:flame:

Now look at the dualism within a religion of the masses today, so we are still within that thought pattern.

Now you are teaching a class and another group of Martial Artist's comes in your door and challenges you, what do you do??? Call the police? Will you lose the respect of your students? Some probabley? Will they leave? Will someone go to jail or be fined? Is it worth it? Does it happen today? :idunno: 

Did everyone in the time of Choki and Gichin and then Mitose have belts??

Different time, and does it matter? I don't think so, since it doesn't matter to others who came after and started their art? :ultracool 

By the way it still does happen, Chinatown and other places come to mind. North Hollywood in the late 50's, then in Hollywood in the middle 60's... How about Los Angeles, in the 70's?  Nixon flashing the peace sign in the the 70's, Well, you get the idea? Or not?:idunno: love these smilies.....:jedi1: 

Regards, Gary:asian:

Are the Martial Arts synonymous with peace?:idunno: I am sure you will agree if you are a peace keeper or a thug.


----------



## kelly keltner

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Alvin, isn't it? Used to run a record store in LA?


nope try again


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> First of all, Gary, John is RIGHT! No disrespect from anyone, just one helluva good debate! Yeah, there were a few misunderstandings but we cleared them up. I'm not upset with anyone's opinion, this is just getting good! lol. Okay, kelly, No, that is not the name. I have the name and so does John but I don't know as of yet if I can release it. Please believe me, I'm not playing games but I just have to check with Professor Abregana first, you know, sometimes you talk in confidence and I can't betray that trust but I will ask. However, now I have another question. If the Kosho ryu 'powers to be' are leveling with you with this information than how come you don't have Mitose's real name and we do? Kell, I'm not bust'n balls, I'm just trying to make a point, there's something wrong with this picture. I honestly do have the name and it's nothing close to what you posted.


 No Joe it just means you may are privy to info either correct or incorrect that we may not have that's ok. The powers that be have their own projects pertaining to the info we have. I'd put money on the fact that "the powers that be are leveling with me "
at this point I am kind of in the same situation as you in I can't betray trust due to projects in the works. I don't worry to much about when it will come out because it will come out. Like I said I don't worry much about whether or not Mitose went to Japan. I look forward to the A&E special. What's wrong with this picture is that we all seem to be putting together a picture that stretches back almost a century peices don't always fit together in the neatest manner. It is possible mitose never went to Japan it is also possible he came and went more than once. It is possible that he used an alias. All these things are possible. But what facts fit where might be hard to say. It's Ok Joe I have had my balls busted before. It aint a big deal. 


kelly


----------



## BlackCatBonz

re: post149

hi prof joe
i do agree with you. but im not or have i ever referred to him as a man of peace or anything else, and by my own nature im a skeptic. BUT.......as far as the book "what is self defense?" he talks about a lot of principles i believe in personally, whether he had adhered to those principles himself, or not. i have been a student of the buddhist religion and philosophy since i was a teenager......8 years before i ever decided to study martial arts. My friends would be the first to tell you that the one trait i hold above all others is honesty.......so yes i am hoping that the accounts he gave are an honest representation of what really happened.......and if not, that doesnt mean that i dont believe in the principles and lessons of peace being taught in kosho2004. i want to believe that we are brothers and sisters in our journey, and above all else, there to help our fellow man.

respectfully

shawn bailey


----------



## Karazenpo

Hey Shawn & Kelly, Yeah, Kell, I follow and what the hell, we all busted each other's balls a little with that 'bone' thing but it was all in fun. Shawn, I know you didn't equate Mitose to that man of peace and man of God thing but I'm sure you'll agree many in Kosho do. I think with the actual court evidence and all the 'facts' in the case that have since come forward, we have to put that one to rest once and for all-he was a criminal, a violent man and no way a man of peace. The rest....I'll stay open to until all the facts are in. Fair enough?


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hey Shawn & Kelly, Yeah, Kell, I follow and what the hell, we all busted each other's balls a little with that 'bone' thing but it was all in fun. Shawn, I know you didn't equate Mitose to that man of peace and man of God thing but I'm sure you'll agree many in Kosho do. I think with the actual court evidence and all the 'facts' in the case that have since come forward, we have to put that one to rest once and for all-he was a criminal, a violent man and no way a man of peace. The rest....I'll stay open to until all the facts are in. Fair enough?


 Don't sweat it. Ain't a big deal.
 Yeah Mitose would preach peace. He just seemed to have a problem practicing what he preached.


kelly


----------



## BlackCatBonz

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hey Shawn & Kelly, Yeah, Kell, I follow and what the hell, we all busted each other's balls a little with that 'bone' thing but it was all in fun. Shawn, I know you didn't equate Mitose to that man of peace and man of God thing but I'm sure you'll agree many in Kosho do. I think with the actual court evidence and all the 'facts' in the case that have since come forward, we have to put that one to rest once and for all-he was a criminal, a violent man and no way a man of peace. The rest....I'll stay open to until all the facts are in. Fair enough?


hey prof joe
i couldnt help but notice that you put the "facts" in quotations.....im not busting your balls, but could you comment on that?

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hey prof joe
> i couldnt help but notice that you put the "facts" in quotations.....im not busting your balls, but could you comment on that?
> 
> shawn



Hi Shawn, sure, no problem. 'Facts' as in the court transcripts (which I have), 'facts of the trial and conviction' and I also have a copy of an evaluation from his probation officer.


----------



## GAB

Hi guys,
I think one of the things you can count on in a court of law anymore is that all the facts don't come in.:idunno: 

Might be if we were more inclined to pursue the law of Justice, rather then the law of making it a case of plea bargain, or motivated by which you can make the most headlines with, or pick a jury that is ignorant or not your peers.:idunno: Venue is another situation that cracks me up.

I know all in the name of justice. Does that mean that in CA we will get more justice then in LA where we have two different systems in the USofA.
The north and the south, the east and the west?

Is that why we try them in the state and the fed all in the name of justice?

How about where you fine a man based on his earnings rather then on the idea that we are all equal in the eyes of the law.  

See we can bring up the pros and cons it is just who you are trying to convince on the 12 person jury, 10 to convict 2 to acquit what happens now?

I just wish we could get it together, but we can't, so lets understand that. 

If we will remember, Johnny Cochran was the attorney for Terry Lee, so we can be sure of one thing, the facts did not come in, and the man is brilliant when it comes to defense.  

Not really my view of what is honest in the court room but we could argue that till the cows fail to make it home.:jedi1: :mp5: :flame: 

Regards, Gary:uhyeah:


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi guys,
> I think one of the things you can count on in a court of law anymore is that all the facts don't come in.:idunno:
> 
> Might be if we were more inclined to pursue the law of Justice, rather then the law of making it a case of plea bargain, or motivated by which you can make the most headlines with, or pick a jury that is ignorant or not your peers.:idunno: Venue is another situation that cracks me up.
> 
> I know all in the name of justice. Does that mean that in CA we will get more justice then in LA where we have two different systems in the USofA.
> The north and the south, the east and the west?
> 
> Is that why we try them in the state and the fed all in the name of justice?
> 
> How about where you fine a man based on his earnings rather then on the idea that we are all equal in the eyes of the law.
> 
> See we can bring up the pros and cons it is just who you are trying to convince on the 12 person jury, 10 to convict 2 to acquit what happens now?
> 
> I just wish we could get it together, but we can't, so lets understand that.
> 
> If we will remember, Johnny Cochran was the attorney for Terry Lee, so we can be sure of one thing, the facts did not come in, and the man is brilliant when it comes to defense.
> 
> Not really my view of what is honest in the court room but we could argue that till the cows fail to make it home.:jedi1: :mp5: :flame:
> 
> Regards, Gary:uhyeah:



Well, all I can say is that in my opinion he was guilty and I guess twelve other people that I never met agreed also!


----------



## Karazenpo

Quote from Kelly: "Yeah Mitose would preach peace. He just seemed to have a problem practicing what he preached."


Kelly, I think you hit the nail on the head! Agreed.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i think gary is right about the court thing though.......how many times has someone been railroaded and convicted only to find out later that the person was innocent the whole time........lots!
you just dont hear about it as much as it happens simply because it paints a bad picture of the justice system.

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i think gary is right about the court thing though.......how many times has someone been railroaded and convicted only to find out later that the person was innocent the whole time........lots!
> you just dont hear about it as much as it happens simply because it paints a bad picture of the justice system.
> 
> shawn



I know what you're saying, Shawn but the court case does back up the heresay and statements and interviews of others of the time that knew him. I remember one interview (I still have in my mag collection) was with Professor Chow and 'con man' was one of the several adjectives he used to describe Mitose. I have to honestly say that to imply Mitose was innocent of criminal behavior and was a man of peace would be reaching. I know on occassion someone can get the royal banana and be innocent but in Mitose's case violent behavior seemed to be his m.o. Remember the threats Sijo Adriano Emperado stated Mitose made to him when he wouldn't fly under his Kenpo Jui Jitsu banner and then he punched a dent in his '36 Buick! I don't know but it all seems to add up to me.


----------



## GAB

How about this thought pattern.

Arnold G. He was a person, and still is, who is very much into the teaching of his profession, which is the ability to read people.:idunno: 

Now, did he get dupped also? Or did he pull out because he was tired of the in fighting and was to busy with his own life, realized you have got to know which fight you will win or lose?:idunno: 

Stop treading water and get out of it (water or the topic at hand).

I sure would like to hear more of his insight or thoughts regarding the whole thing. 

This will be something that I have asked and will not get any play I am sure.

Regard, Gary:asian:


----------



## KenpoDave

John Bishop said:
			
		

> "Shorei Ryu" is a common Okinawan system.  But your saying that there is a "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kenpo" style practiced in Japan?  And it's lineage goe's back to the Mitose's family temple?



Oh, no!  I am of the opinion that Mitose named his art to both hide it and give clues to it's origin.  I think that the place to look in Japan would be under the martial art that is most commonly practiced by the Yoshidas.

What bothers me, and I am not the one doing the research, so I may be way off, but what bothers me is that the name Kosho Shorei Ryu always leads to a dead end in Japan.  So, Mitose made it all up and conned us.

Why not assume for research sake that Mitose made up the name, and look at the curriculum taught to the Yoshida family as being the origin of our art?  That seems rather obvious to me, but it may be harder done than said, or perhaps that angle has been tried already and I don't know about it...


----------



## KenpoDave

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Alvin is actually the youngest of the 3 legitimate son's.  He and his older brother were son's of James and Dorothy (Ogata) Mitose.  Thomas Barro Mitose is the son of James and Mildred Mitose.  James also has a few illegitimate children in Hawaii.



Oh well, it was the only other name I have!


----------



## KenpoDave

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> nope try again



Can't.  Don't know any other names, yet! :idunno:


----------



## KenpoDave

GAB said:
			
		

> Arnold G. He was a person, and still is, who is very much into the teaching of his profession, which is the ability to read people.:idunno:
> 
> Now, did he get dupped also? Or did he pull out because he was tired of the in fighting and was to busy with his own life, realized you have got to know which fight you will win or lose?:idunno:



I talked to Arnold Golub a number of years ago, and found him quite willing to answer direct questions, but not real willing to give information out in areas that I knew nothing about.  I understand, so no big deal.

But, Gary, you are right.  He stepped out because he got tired of the whole mess.  He did not at that time feel like things were taking the direction that Mitose had wanted them to take, and although "Headmaster" he was not in a position to tell the other masters what to do.


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Quote from Kelly: "Yeah Mitose would preach peace. He just seemed to have a problem practicing what he preached."
> 
> 
> Kelly, I think you hit the nail on the head! Agreed.


 I thought you'd like that one.

kell


----------



## Karazenpo

Gary, c'ome on, you're a former cop and you can't tell? O.J. didn't kill, Scott Peterson is innocent, Mark Hacky didn't put his wife's body in a garbage dump after he put a .22 through her head and Michael Jackson doesn't fondle little boys, Charles Manson & Ted Bundy were misunderstood and last but not least, Mitose's not a criminal! You know what?  I've about had it if this B.S. continues. I'm pretty open minded and I always try to be fair but if anyone answers to the contrary of this post......then you are in "Neverland" and I'm not the one who should wake up and smell the coffee! C'ome on guys, be real and let's move on from here!


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor, 

Yes I agree with you, blowing smoke, is what I have always called it, I am just throwing out thoughts to see how they play.
I have posted many times agreeing with you, but hey. :idunno:  

Now, I just heard that Kobe is not going to be charged criminally. 

I think you will see more of that in the future. Goes along with responsibility for ones own actions weather it is criminal or not. :uhyeah:

It has got to happen sooner or later, rather then society being at fault, the person who commited the act will be accountable at least with a form of redemption to the person or family wronged. 

I like the idea, "Revenge is a dish best served cold.":mp5: :flame: 
I believe payment is a form of redemption, worked for Hammarabi, good stuff.

Regards, Gary%-}


----------



## Doc

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Gary, c'ome on, you're a former cop and you can't tell? O.J. didn't kill, Scott Peterson is innocent, Mark Hacky didn't put his wife's body in a garbage dump after he put a .22 through her head and Michael Jackson doesn't fondle little boys, Charles Manson & Ted Bundy were misunderstood and last but not least, Mitose's not a criminal! You know what?  I've about had it if this B.S. continues. I'm pretty open minded and I always try to be fair but if anyone answers to the contrary of this post......then you are in "Neverland" and I'm not the one who should wake up and smell the coffee! C'ome on guys, be real and let's move on from here!


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor,
I posted and it did not come up, it is in cyber space and will show up later?

The jest of it is, who did they intern, and who did they not, why? 

Why was the investigating Officer also Japanese (language barrier). Why :idunno: because the person who is a defendent does not speak USA very well would be my guess.

I am at a disadvantage, I can give a few hints but not the full story. I am not in the big picture. I am not BS'ing you I am just throwing out thoughts and a piece of the puzzle.    

My thought is it is in your court to disprove, since there are so many places I can go on the net, and find the story that he did go. Legends are tough.

Yes, so are myths, so are religions, so we are just going to have to wait for a while I guess. Doc won't answer my few questions, and you want me to answer yours, :whip: I have been trying. 

I just think it is time to go on from a different angle, we have beat this to a pulp. I would say with the war and the troubles, we have a spy, with double citizenship and an agenda. He played both sides more then once.

Last but not least, the name is within the name, it is in plain sight,
change an I or an O and you have the answer, the key is knowledge, a little
name playing, I think. Sort of sifting through a code that is obvious.

I think there were quite a few people being conned in the early years of Kenpo, it is out in the open if you choose to look for it, or you can ignore it and hope it will not come up.

Yes, Ed Parker and Al Tracy have done a lot of good for Kenpo, So has Bruce Juchnik.

There has been strife in all the arts, but we just need to go on and let old history, be just that, from the ashes comes new life, let it go at that.

The A&E Doc will stir some things up maybe for the good maybe not.
Like I said before, who holds the best hand, is it a bluff or real?

Regards, Gary


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Professor,
> Last but not least, the name is within the name, it is in plain sight,
> change an I or an O and you have the answer, the key is knowledge, a little
> name playing, I think. Sort of sifting through a code that is obvious.
> 
> Regards, Gary


You mean the stuff about the "Kanji" being the same for "Masayoshi" and "Masakichi"?  And the name being written wrongly on the passenger list for the ship to Japan?  I've heard about these travel records.  I've also heard there's no record of "Masayoshi" or "Masakichi" Mitose returning from Japan.  
The Hawaii state doc's we have show that "Mitose" used a differant last name while he was growing up in Hawaii.  We have a picture of him when he was 13-14, does Mr. Juchnik or Mr. Tracy have one of these?


----------



## BlackCatBonz

John Bishop said:
			
		

> You mean the stuff about the "Kanji" being the same for "Masayoshi" and "Masakichi"? And the name being written wrongly on the passenger list for the ship to Japan? I've heard about these travel records. I've also heard there's no record of "Masayoshi" or "Masakichi" Mitose returning from Japan.
> The Hawaii state doc's we have show that "Mitose" used a differant last name while he was growing up in Hawaii. We have a picture of him when he was 13-14, does Mr. Juchnik or Mr. Tracy have one of these?


another relic from the past....are you sure its a picture of Mitose? you dont seem to be sure if he is 13 or 14.

also....true or false- 100% of the truth is revealed in a court of law 100% of the time.

LEO's feel free to answer this question

shawn


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> another relic from the past....are you sure its a picture of Mitose? you dont seem to be sure if he is 13 or 14.
> 
> also....true or false- 100% of the truth is revealed in a court of law 100% of the time.
> 
> LEO's feel free to answer this question
> 
> shawn


The picture goes with others that his ex-classmate/roomate provided, along with other personal items Mitose left behind when he moved.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

hi john
im not trying to give you a hard time or anything......i really respect your position as a teacher, historian and investigator.

respectfully
shawn


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> hi john
> im not trying to give you a hard time or anything......i really respect your position as a teacher, historian and investigator.
> 
> respectfully
> shawn


Shawn:
No problem at all.  We're all looking for the same truth.  Hopefully someday we'll all put our piecies of the puzzle together, discard the one's that don't fit, and have a complete picture.


----------



## GAB

John, 
I was actually thinking about the Martial Art, like the way they changed the name from China Hand to Empty Hand (Karate). 

The name of Mitose, I have not gotten involved with that except, some people that I have talked to, who seem like good sources, say he went to Japan.

How about the internment, or is anyone going to address the language barrier?:idunno: 

Regards, Gary:asian:


----------



## John Bishop

GAB said:
			
		

> John,
> The name of Mitose, I have not gotten involved with that except, some people that I have talked to, who seem like good sources, say he went to Japan.


But do they have records that a "Masayoshi" or "Masakichi" Mitose came back from Japan?



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> How about the internment, or is anyone going to address the language barrier?:idunno:
> 
> Regards, Gary:asian:


If your talking about Mitose, I was under the impression that the Japanese living in Hawaii were not interned since they were concentrated on a island.  Plus it would have been a hard task since Japanese descendants are the largest population on in Hawaii.


----------



## Mekugi

Just to clear some things up...



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> John,
> I was actually thinking about the Martial Art, like the way they changed the name from China Hand to Empty Hand (Karate).


That was not a "they" but a "he" in Gichin Funakoshi. His alteration of the kanji, with the same pronunciation, simply became popular and nothing more.





			
				GAB said:
			
		

> The name of Mitose, I have not gotten involved with that except, some people that I have talked to, who seem like good sources, say he went to Japan.How about the internment, or is anyone going to address the language barrier?
> 
> Regards, Gary


I believe you are talking about Hawaii? To that effect, I have a good quote:


> Nakatsu, Russ. Historical Background of the Nisei. 1995. online. www.kent.wednet.edu/ksd/sj/nikkei/the_nisei.html. Sep. 9, 1998.
> 
> "In Hawaii, where *most of the Japanese were not sent to camps*, the recruitment quota was exceeded by several thousand. Though much closer to the enemy and of greater strategic importance, Hawaii needed every worker it could get. As a result, fewer than 2,000 Japanese were moved from Hawaii, mostly aliens and those considered security risks. Approximately one-third of those evacuated from Hawaii were citizens, and mostly Kibei at that. While still being treated with suspicion, the Hawaiian Japanese generally fared better than their mainland counterparts.
> 
> Eventually, the 100th Infantry Battalion was formed in Hawaii, as was the 442nd combat unit; an all-Nisei squad made from volunteers from the camps. They were active in Italy and France, suffering the highest casualty rate of any unit in the war.
> 
> The 442nd sustained 9,486 wounded and over 600 killed. However, the unit also won fifty-two Distinguished Service Crosses, 560 Silver Stars, seven Presidential Unit Citations, and one posthumous Congressional Medal of Honor. The 100th Battalion received 900 Purple Hearts, thirty-six Silver Stars, twenty-one Bronze Stars, and three Distinguished Service Crosses".


----------



## kelly keltner

good post mekugi.

kelly


----------



## GAB

Hi Mekugi,

Regarding internment, that explains why he was free to move around (mitose).

I know Gichin Funakoshi was part of the reason the characters were changed but I didn't think it was a one man band. :idunno: 

I don't think I was being disrespectful to the Japanese, I know the story about their valor in the European theatre, also the Fillipino valor in the battle for their homeland was of much importance during the war.:mp5: 

I was curious if these were things to discuss that might be of importance to Mitose, Hawaii and Japan. 

:asian: The one thing that is interesting is it brings up a name, I have wondered about and will ask now.  What does FunaKoshi mean in Japanese and if you were to change the last letter would it change the meaning? How about the Kanji?

Regards, Gary


----------



## Mekugi

I doubt he was free to move around in Hawaii, or anywhere else during those times. The islands didn't have enough man power to support themselves without those folks and there was a military presence there, so it's kinda like what John said. I don't believe that internment camps had much to do with a communication problem, it had more to do with a form of paranoid reactionism with racist undertones, IMHO. I doubt very much if something that drastic would be acceptable today.

Unless his name is spelled differently, 'Funakoshi' as a surname breaks down like this:

Funa (fune) &#33311; = ship 
Koshi(koeru) &#36234; or &#36229;&#12288;=going over. 

I am not su&#65362;e what you mean by last letter and kanji? Explain to me what you mean in greater detail so I can attempt to answer on-track with what you are thinking.

-Russ



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Mekugi,
> 
> Regarding internment, that explains why he was free to move around (mitose).
> 
> :asian: The one thing that is interesting is it brings up a name, I have wondered about and will ask now. What does FunaKoshi mean in Japanese and if you were to change the last letter would it change the meaning? How about the Kanji?
> 
> Regards, Gary


----------



## BlackCatBonz

romaji is just a standard used for spelling the japanese language in english.....because they use ideograms the way we spell it has no impact on their japanese "spelling"....but, these characters havemore than one simple pronunciation.

example: the character for pine can be pronounced sho or matsu; or the character for finger can be pronounced yubi or shi

i think this is where a lot of misinformation comes from in the west, people simply dont understand the "complexities" of the language...like in english when you hear the word car you think of an automobile

shawn

anyone please correct me if i am wrong........this is what i learned in school


----------



## GAB

Hi Shawn and  Russ thanks. 
I will pm for more info on what you are referring to regarding the language translation. 

Russ, As far as the internment, I was referring to Mitose being Japanese he might have been interned, not to the right or wrong of it, or the racial overtones.

My thought of intern was to say, was he put in a location other then his home etc. Might be paperwork on him...

But you say they did not do that in Hawaii  (intern).  
How about taking names and keeping track of the Japanese in Hawaii?  Military guards? House arrest? Curfew?:idunno: 

I find it strange that the USA, would not have tightened up on the Japanese, who lived on the island, due to the war.:mp5:  Because they did it in other places.

Regards, Gary


----------



## M.C. Busman

Russ, 

Any chance you can post the kanji for _Mitose_?


All Y'all, 

Other questions to explore:

1. Fusae Oshita--was he Shodan from Mitose, or from an Okinawa karate sensei?

2. Mitose says he served in the Hawaiian Territorian Guard...any records?

3. Any public or private school (primary, etc.) regarding Mitose?

4. If "Mitose" was not James Mitose's family name...why did he take it?  What was his original name, did he change it...and why would a man change his name?

Hmmm.




Happy Labor Day,

M.C. Busman


----------



## John Bishop

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> Russ,
> 
> Other questions to explore:
> 
> 1. Fusae Oshita--was he Shodan from Mitose, or from an Okinawa karate sensei?
> 
> Happy Labor Day,
> 
> M.C. Busman


As I understand the story, "Fusae Oshita" is actually a "Clara Mitose", who some claim was James Mitose's sister. She is said to be the female in Mitose's book doing techniques. (But others say the woman is James's wife, Mildred). The story is that "Fusae" is her Japanese first name, and "Oshita" was her married name. The story going around was that she went to Japan with James and also trained at the monastery. Strange thing, James testified at his trial that it was his brother that was with him in Japan. 
Some are also claiming that the other female in the group picture in the book was another female student of James Mitose. But they seem to be getting her name wrong all the time, and refer to her as "Lisa Chung". The whole truth is that the picture was not James Mitose's self defense club at all. It was actually William Chow's school at the Nuuana YMCA. Mitose was merely visiting there along with Arthur Keave. (Mitose was good at stealing pictures and information for his books, but that's another topic.)The woman in the picture with the scarf on her head is Elizabeth Chun aka: "Auntie Liz". She was originally a student of Adriano Emperado's and later trained with William Chow. She was William Chow's first female black belt, not Mitose's black belt. She died a few years ago in San Diego.


----------



## M.C. Busman

John wrote: _"The story is that "Fusae" is her Japanese first name, and "Oshita" was her married name."_

Oh yeah...Fusae and Shizue (?) Mitose.  The next question becomes with whom did she really study.  There is still too much lingering doubt about the whole "learned it in a temple" story that keeps changing.  I'm wondering if telling such tales wasn't a family trait all around.

Robert Trias' "_Karatedo: The Supreme Way_" shows Thomas Barros-Mitose, 2 of his 3 kids Elizabeth & Mark (who apparently is next in line) and also Golub & Juchnik.  Trias wrote:

_"In the 40's, Master Trias would make an occasional visit, work out and assist Professor Mitose in his untiring efforts to build a closer correlation between the Shuri/Shorei/Hsing-i forms and the Japanese/Chinese Kenpo systems in the islands of Hawaii. [...]_(1989:34)

I have my own thoughts on Trias's lineage and how he came to use the Mitose Kosho crest.  Trias had the crest turned the wrong way in the early days...just like shown in Mitose's book published in the late '40's.  Trias also claimed a lineage from the only Okinawan Karate master who'd been named & pictured in Mitose's book...Choki Motobu, through a Chinese man no-one has ever heard of or been able to trace.  But that's another thread.  

No-one ever talks about his oldest son, Alan Mitose, though.  Wouldn't Alan be the hereditary heir?  I thought he was the oldest, but then again I haven't seen a complete tree of James Mitose's blood descendents.

To see a picture of grandson of the first (or 21st, depending upon what you believe), and son of the present "honorable great-great grandmaster" Mitose (Mark Mitose), see: 

http://kosho-ryu.com/family_tree/mark_mitose.htm


Take Care,

M.C. Busman


----------



## GAB

Hi M C Busman,

I like your input thanks, we need some fresh insite.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Mekugi

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> Russ,
> 
> Any chance you can post the kanji for _Mitose_?
> 
> M.C. Busman


I am not sure the way the name (Mitose) was actually written by him because as this is a name, there can be other combinations- however not as popular. That is a possibility. I have two guesses, however, based on common names to draw from.

The first one is:

Mi(zu)*&#27700;*= Water
To *&#25144;* = Door
Se *&#28716;*= Riverbank

In the next version, we find the native Japanese count of 3 as in"Mitsu" as the first kanji:

Mi(tsu) *&#19977;*=Three
To *&#25144;* = Door
Se *&#28716;*= Riverbank


----------



## GAB

Hi M C Busman,

The picture of  Mark Mitose is a close look alike of a picture of the young James in Hawaii, circa 1940/45. All 5'-5"and about 120 lbs.

The more you see the more you wonder. 

Regards, Gary


----------



## kelly keltner

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi M C Busman,
> 
> The picture of  Mark Mitose is a close look alike of a picture of the young James in Hawaii, circa 1940/45. All 5'-5"and about 120 lbs.
> 
> The more you see the more you wonder.
> 
> Regards, Gary


 yeah I'd say when James was about 25-26 years old only without the mustache.

kelly


----------



## The Kai

The picture of Mark Mitose is a close look alike of a picture of the young James in Hawaii, circa 1940/45. All 5'-5"and about 120 lbs.

The more you see the more you wonder. 

Yes, Father and Son look alike-they bear an almost family resemblence-ODD to say the least.  Hmmm.  Perhaps if we look close enough we could theortically find some resemblence between Mother and Daughter, or perhaps between Brothers
Todd


----------



## GAB

Hi Todd,

Yes, that is true, but, we are talking a Grandson. We all have a pair one from Mom and one from Dad. (genes)

I believe the reason for the picture is because of the very close look, to establish direct link. 
Since there was talk at one time, that Thomas and his father James may not be linked, because of the ease, James seems to give up or sell, his children. (common trait)

Considering the number of children, and his lack of responsibility towards family.
Numerous reasons, why I continue to try to understand the complexity of the man.

Thanks MC.
Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Todd,
> 
> Yes, that is true, but, we are talking a Grandson. We all have a pair one from Mom and one from Dad. (genes)


Again not so odd for there to be a resemblence btween grand kids!! (No conspirancy)
 [/QUOTE]Since there was talk at one time, that Thomas and his father James may not be linked, because of the ease, James seems to give up or sell, his children. (common trait)

Considering the number of children, and his lack of responsibility towards family.
Numerous reasons, why I continue to try to understand the complexity of the man.
 [/QUOTE]You call selling your children "complex", what the hell
Thanks MC.
Regards, Gary[/QUOTE]


----------



## KenpoDave

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Some are also claiming that the other female in the group picture in the book was another female student of James Mitose. But they seem to be getting her name wrong all the time, and refer to her as "Lisa Chung". The whole truth is that the picture was not James Mitose's self defense club at all. It was actually William Chow's school at the Nuuana YMCA. Mitose was merely visiting there along with Arthur Keave. (Mitose was good at stealing pictures and information for his books, but that's another topic.)The woman in the picture with the scarf on her head is Elizabeth Chun aka: "Auntie Liz". She was originally a student of Adriano Emperado's and later trained with William Chow. She was William Chow's first female black belt, not Mitose's black belt. She died a few years ago in San Diego.



Elizabeth Chun went by the name Lisa Chun at the time the picture was taken.  When I met her, she was going by Elizabeth Chun Edwards.  I never met her husband, who was an executive for Sears at the time.(I have always wondered if she was related to Bill Chun...)

She was dating William Chow and thru him met Mitose, who brought her in to be the training partner for his sister, Clare Mitose (Fusae Oshita).  She became a student of Adriano Emperado as a result of Chow owing Emperado money.  The way she told me was something to the effect that Chow "sold her" to Emperado.  She claimed to have been awarded a 4th dan from Emperado.

Though not a direct student of Mitose in the traditional sense, Mitose taught her many things.  She had lots of great stories about being in the dojo and remembered quite a bit of her training.  Most of her practice in the years since Hawaii involved Energy Collection exercises which bear very close resemblance to the I Chin Ching exercises.  She also told an interesting story about Mitose setting an orange on top of the makiwara post, and sticking his index finger thru the side of it.  Then he would tell her to try, and she would knock it off the post.  He would just laugh, pick up the orange, and walk away.

She was very clear that it was obvious that Mitose was the top man within the schools.


----------



## GAB

Hi Todd,

I was reading your post, it looks like you did not finish it or maybe some of it was deleated?

Yes, I think Mitose was a very complex individual, based on his teachings, then his criminal side that has been brought forth, also his claiming to be a minister (I think there is information that will show he was in fact one), he was probabley a double agent (spy) then turned traitor (japan). 

May have had dual citizenship and then became a convert to American ways. 
I think he was given some money from the US Govt. for helping during the war.

They did have an intern location in Hawaii, and I believe he was interned for awhile. 
I think you will find that Shinto priests had a very important role in Hawaii, for collecting money for Japan's war effort.(within the Japanese community on Hawaii) They also were allowed to have more freedom (moving from place to place) similar to what we give our priest's during times like these.
So yes, I think he was complex, having children and selling them or just giving them away, (which I doubt, money was the reason) just one of the things that brings that term to mind.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Mekugi

Gary, where in the samhill are you getting this stuff? 

Please read :

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8420/camps.html

http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/w188/j2.htm

http://www.pacshiprev.com/PacificArchivesSubDirectory/page21.html

Furthermore, who said Mitose was a Shinto priest???



			
				GAB said:
			
		

> They did have an intern location in Hawaii, and I believe he was interned for awhile.
> I think you will find that Shinto priests had a very important role in Hawaii, for collecting money for Japan's war effort.(within the Japanese community on Hawaii) They also were allowed to have more freedom (moving from place to place) similar to what we give our priest's during times like these.
> 
> Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Todd,
> 
> I was reading your post, it looks like you did not finish it or maybe some of it was deleated?
> 
> Yes, I think Mitose was a very complex individual, based on his teachings, then his criminal side that has been brought forth, also his claiming to be a minister (I think there is information that will show he was in fact one), he was probabley a double agent (spy) then turned traitor (japan).
> 
> May have had dual citizenship and then became a convert to American ways.
> I think he was given some money from the US Govt. for helping during the war.
> 
> They did have an intern location in Hawaii, and I believe he was interned for awhile.
> I think you will find that Shinto priests had a very important role in Hawaii, for collecting money for Japan's war effort.(within the Japanese community on Hawaii) They also were allowed to have more freedom (moving from place to place) similar to what we give our priest's during times like these.
> So yes, I think he was complex, having children and selling them or just giving them away, (which I doubt, money was the reason) just one of the things that brings that term to mind.
> 
> Regards, Gary


1.) Do you know what was taught by Mitose?
2.) All evidence points to the minister thing being a fraud
3.) Spy what do you base that on?
4.) The gov't gave him money any proof?
5.) I got eh impression in Hawaii all Japanese were free to roam around, Mitose had even more freeom then that?
6.) Shinto priest proof of?
7.) Selling a child Money not the objective?  What is the point?
Man, my head is starting to spin!
Mitose went to Japan
may not be the same Mitose who came back
Odd That Mitose looks different in the photos taken in the 40's and the photo's taken in the 80's (like older maybe)
Master herbalist who murdered a patient, Or elimated a Spy 20+ years after the war!
Side note if a Spy/Herbalist his someone in his care why not posion the person?  Instead inconspeciously train someone to stab them with a screwdriver -that's almost untracable
8.) Where is the temple?  Why a secret?
T


----------



## GAB

Hi Todd,

I have been putting out request,s and have been getting some information back, so I am sharing it with you.

If you have a hard time believing it so did I, untill I did some more legwork, phone calls e-mail etc. I was relating to you why I thought Mitose was a complex person and part of that complexity is what I have seen and heard from different sources.:uhyeah: 

I can try to give you more, but why should I? I can see this is a tag team, I will see what else I can develop?

Todd, now you want to know why he had someone killed when he (or his sister) could have done it with herbs? I guess that question should be asked of Terry Lee.:idunno: 

As far as the temple being secret, I have read on many websites that it was not a secret and it was in plain sight. Regarding pictures I am refering to similar times and not 60 years apart.

Also Todd if you have been to the gathering as many times as you say, maybe you ought to call Hanshi, he will fill you in personally. Have you let him know you will not be there this year? The phone # is avaliable in some of these threads. Or you can get it off the SKSKI website.

Like Fox news you heard it first here.:asian: 
Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

What tag team are you talking about?   If you have more info why hold it back?  


As far as the herb thing random thought would not be better for a spy to be unnoticed?
So Where's the temple?
Where are the pic's of a dissimiliar Mitose?
Gary< Why would I lie about being to the Gathering?  And why the hell are you calling me a liar?  maybe I too, am complex?
Todd


----------



## GAB

Todd, 
I am not calling you anything of the kind, Random thoughts, yes, I have those also, then I type them in and I get into trouble.:idunno: 

I am not trying to cause problems, just give some thoughts and information.
Yes, we are all fairly complex. Kell calls it an agenda.:asian: 

Here is a random thought, you and I just turned blue belt on MartialTalk board, talking on the same thread, kind of like classmates?:uhyeah: 
Pass the cerveza & cuervo gold, lime and salt.artyon: 

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> .:asian:
> 
> Here is a random thought, you and I just turned blue belt on MartialTalk board, talking on the same thread, kind of like classmates?:uhyeah:
> Pass the cerveza & cuervo gold, lime and salt.artyon:
> 
> Regards, Gary


Ironic but true, we'll argue and fuss our way up to black belt yet, I'm in wisconsin, so I go with Beer and Brats
Todd


----------



## M.C. Busman

Greg wrote: "_Yes, I think Mitose was a very complex individual, based on his teachings, then his criminal side that has been brought forth, also his claiming to be a minister (I think there is information that will show he was in fact one), he was probabley a double agent (spy) then turned traitor (japan)." _

O.K., Mitose testified during his trial that he ordered his divinity certificate through the mail for a fee.  He also had to submit a thesis.  He admitted that he did not write this thesis himself because his English was so bad (I don't have the exact page now guys).  So, unless you accept that Mitose was a minister 'cause he said he were one, there is nothing else to go on.

On the spy thing.  Al Tracy first came out with this wild theory a few years ago and posted it on the Tracy website.  It was unsupported then, and it is unsupported now.  Look at the period of time.  Mitose was occupied doing other things.  I don't think he would have had a heck of a lot to report on...

Best 2 Ya,

M.C. Busman


----------



## M.C. Busman

Some new documentation on Mitose and his alleged time in Japan.  I haven't seen the physical records, but they are _a_ source--I don't think it's somethin' someone would just make up, but for now....

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com./articles.htm

...first article @ the top.


Take Care,

M.C. Busman


----------



## Doc

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> Some new documentation on Mitose and his alleged time in Japan.  I haven't seen the physical records, but they are _a_ source--I don't think it's somethin' someone would just make up, but for now....
> 
> http://www.sanjosekenpo.com./articles.htm
> 
> ...first article @ the top.
> 
> 
> Take Care,
> 
> M.C. Busman



Same site as the "Parker Exposé" and same crap to promote their own unique perspective of history. Anyone who would go to the lengths that the Tracy's did to remove themselves from the Parker Lineage to place themselves directly in the Mitose Lineage says it all.

For the record Jimmy Woo and Parker simply had a disagreement over an oversight and parted company. Like thats never happend before. No skulldulgary, theft, or back stabbing just a misunderstanding that Parker admitted to.


----------



## John Bishop

Doc said:
			
		

> For the record Jimmy Woo and Parker simply had a disagreement over an oversight and parted company. Like thats never happend before. No skulldulgary, theft, or back stabbing just a misunderstanding that Parker admitted to.


Funny, on James Wing Woo's own website, he dosen't mention anything about bad feelings, or bad business deals.  He merely says that he and Mr. Parker collaberated on a book together.  And when they found a publisher, he refused to pay any up front fees or royalities.  So he (Woo) decided he didn't want to be involved in the deal, so Mr. Parker was left to sell the book.


----------



## Doc

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Funny, on James Wing Woo's own website, he dosen't mention anything about bad feelings, or bad business deals.  He merely says that he and Mr. Parker collaberated on a book together.  And when they found a publisher, he refused to pay any up front fees or royalities.  So he (Woo) decided he didn't want to be involved in the deal, so Mr. Parker was left to sell the book.



As usual "O' Wise one with much patience," you are correct. Parker and Woo separated on good terms. Later on when the book came out, Woo made a simple inquiry about a lack of a reference for the source of a great deal of the information. Although Parker stated that there was in fact a reference to Jimmy Woo in the book as a "source," the publishers edited much of the content of what for them was a risky book venture, and Parker apologized for the "oversight" even though Woo himself pulled out of the transaction. At that time Woo was already gone and, as you stated, there were no "bad feelings." Many tried to make a big deal out of two of Parker's black belts leaving and choosing to continue with Jimmy Woo. Parker's reply was simply, "He knows more than me about the Chinese Arts, so why not?" Ed Parker had students come and go all the time like most teachers.


----------



## M.C. Busman

Yeah, it is funny. In an November 1990 interview with Lilia I. Howe entitled _"James Wing Woo: Kung Fu's Unknown Pioneer"_ published in_ Inside Kung Fu_, Woo is quoted: 

_[....]"We moved back to China in 1928, which was where I trained. I had returned to the United States years later, and hadn't planned on exploiting my martial arts knowledge. What happened was I met a guy in Northern California who induced me to move south to the Hollywood area. He wanted to write a book with me. The guy ended up taking my work and running with it--I never got any credit--but the students all wanted to study with me."_ (34)

It's good to see that 14 years after this aricle was published Mr. Woo has his own website. see: http://www.tecnoscan.com/sifu/

What is _really_ funny is that he never mentions the "Kenpo Instructor" by name. Why would two men who made a clean break and had nothing against each other not mention one another by name? Hmmm. 

Doc wrote in part: _"At that time Woo was already gone and, as you stated, there were no "bad feelings." Many tried to make a big deal out of two of Parker's black belts leaving and choosing to continue with Jimmy Woo. Parker's reply was simply, "He knows more than me about the Chinese Arts, so why not?" Ed Parker had students come and go all the time like most teachers."_

Maybe more choose to ignore the facts and stick with a version of history that has unfortunately been "sanitized for your protection".

James Wing Woo was never mentioned as a source in _"Secrets of Chinese Karate"_ by Ed Parker. At least not my 1963 and 1966 hardback editions published by Prentice-Hall, Inc. of Englewood Cliffs, NJ. We read an excerpt from the _Acknowledgements_ of the author:

_"The author wishes to expres his gratitude and appreciation to Dr. William C.C. Hu for his generous advice and contributions on much of the technical data in this book. His excellent knowledge of Chinese history was a tremendous aid in authenticating and documenting it._
_"The author is also grateful to James Y. Lee whose ideas and translations have also made this book possible. His words of encouragement and his assistance in allowing the author to quote a few paragraphs from his book are greatly appreciated._
_"Thanks also go to James McQuade for his patience and talent in illustrating this book; to the author's brother David P. Parker for his drawings of the popular stories of Chinese martial art history; to those who have endorsed this book--Joe Hyams, Nick Adams, Blake Edwards, and Terry Hunt; and all others who have helped in its preparation."_ (5-6)

Narry a mention for the man who claims to have "writ[ten] the book together" with Parker. Odd, huh? Maybe I missed the name "Woo" somewhere. Or maybe Parker did all the work and Woo is just trying to take half the credit, now that Parker has passed on (personally, I don't think so--but it is an alternate theory for Parker true believers to consider). Or maybe there was some other kenpo instructor (not Parker) who induced Woo to move to So Cal, teach gratis at his schools, and write a book with him. And maybe he and _this other kenpo instructor guy_ parted ways in 1961, too. The 2-kenpo instructor guy theory doesn't appeal to me though. Call me a skeptic, I think there was just 1 kenpo guy. 

Neither man will/would name the other. Those don't sound like very good terms to me. Maybe tactful avoidance.


Keep up the Good Work! 

M.C. Busman

p.s. for interested parties: I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Tracy Kenpo line, or a student under someone who is or was (as far as I know!).

p.s.s., anyone care to point out how the Tracy's have removed themselves from the Parker lineage? http://www.tracyskarate.com/Tracytree/treemstpage.htm

p.s.s.t., is anything posted on or linked-to from a Tracy's Kenpo site now considered unreliable/verboten by association? They're far from correct about everything (the Yoshida stuff, f'rinstance  )..but c'mon.


----------



## Doc

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> Yeah, it is funny. In an November 1990 interview with Lilia I. Howe entitled _"James Wing Woo: Kung Fu's Unknown Pioneer"_ published in_ Inside Kung Fu_, Woo is quoted:
> 
> _[....]"We moved back to China in 1928, which was where I trained. I had returned to the United States years later, and hadn't planned on exploiting my martial arts knowledge. What happened was I met a guy in Northern California who induced me to move south to the Hollywood area. He wanted to write a book with me. The guy ended up taking my work and running with it--I never got any credit--but the students all wanted to study with me."_ (34)
> 
> It's good to see that 14 years after this aricle was published Mr. Woo has his own website. see: http://www.tecnoscan.com/sifu/
> 
> What is _really_ funny is that he never mentions the "Kenpo Instructor" by name. Why would two men who made a clean break and had nothing against each other not mention one another by name? Hmmm.
> 
> Doc wrote in part: _"At that time Woo was already gone and, as you stated, there were no "bad feelings." Many tried to make a big deal out of two of Parker's black belts leaving and choosing to continue with Jimmy Woo. Parker's reply was simply, "He knows more than me about the Chinese Arts, so why not?" Ed Parker had students come and go all the time like most teachers."_
> 
> Maybe more choose to ignore the facts and stick with a version of history that has unfortunately been "sanitized for your protection".
> 
> James Wing Woo was never mentioned as a source in _"Secrets of Chinese Karate"_ by Ed Parker. At least not my 1963 and 1966 hardback editions published by Prentice-Hall, Inc. of Englewood Cliffs, NJ. We read an excerpt from the _Acknowledgements_ of the author:
> 
> _"The author wishes to expres his gratitude and appreciation to Dr. William C.C. Hu for his generous advice and contributions on much of the technical data in this book. His excellent knowledge of Chinese history was a tremendous aid in authenticating and documenting it._
> _"The author is also grateful to James Y. Lee whose ideas and translations have also made this book possible. His words of encouragement and his assistance in allowing the author to quote a few paragraphs from his book are greatly appreciated._
> _"Thanks also go to James McQuade for his patience and talent in illustrating this book; to the author's brother David P. Parker for his drawings of the popular stories of Chinese martial art history; to those who have endorsed this book--Joe Hyams, Nick Adams, Blake Edwards, and Terry Hunt; and all others who have helped in its preparation."_ (5-6)
> 
> Narry a mention for the man who claims to have "writ[ten] the book together" with Parker. Odd, huh? Maybe I missed the name "Woo" somewhere. Or maybe Parker did all the work and Woo is just trying to take half the credit, now that Parker has passed on (personally, I don't think so--but it is an alternate theory for Parker true believers to consider). Or maybe there was some other kenpo instructor (not Parker) who induced Woo to move to So Cal, teach gratis at his schools, and write a book with him. And maybe he and _this other kenpo instructor guy_ parted ways in 1961, too. The 2-kenpo instructor guy theory doesn't appeal to me though. Call me a skeptic, I think there was just 1 kenpo guy.
> 
> Neither man will/would name the other. Those don't sound like very good terms to me. Maybe tactful avoidance.
> 
> 
> Keep up the Good Work!
> 
> M.C. Busman
> 
> p.s. for interested parties: I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Tracy Kenpo line, or a student under someone who is or was (as far as I know!).
> 
> p.s.s., anyone care to point out how the Tracy's have removed themselves from the Parker lineage? http://www.tracyskarate.com/Tracytree/treemstpage.htm
> 
> p.s.s.t., is anything posted on or linked-to from a Tracy's Kenpo site now considered unreliable/verboten by association? They're far from correct about everything (the Yoshida stuff, f'rinstance  )..but c'mon.



Great. A friggin' mind reader who knows the "truth" even though he wasn't there. SMDYSAESCSGT.


----------



## M.C. Busman

I cited my sources.  Research and mind reading have nothing to do w/ one another.  One achieves results.


You were there?  When?  Why don't you tell us what you remember.  Your specific recollection of Parker & Woo splitting is as good or better than a secondary account.


Take Care,

M.C. Busman


----------



## Dr. Kenpo

M.C. Busman said:
			
		

> I cited my sources. Research and mind reading have nothing to do w/ one another. One achieves results.
> 
> 
> You were there? When? Why don't you tell us what you remember. Your specific recollection of Parker & Woo splitting is as good or better than a secondary account.
> 
> 
> Take Care,
> 
> M.C. Busman[/QUOTE
> 
> Not to worry, he won't. He just likes to start fires and watch em burn. He even shows up to party's w/o bringing anything to the table. Plus that, he comes uninvited.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> another relic from the past....are you sure its a picture of Mitose? you dont seem to be sure if he is 13 or 14.
> 
> also....true or false- 100% of the truth is revealed in a court of law 100% of the time.
> 
> LEO's feel free to answer this question
> 
> shawn


i find it funny that no one has addressed this question.....because so much seems to be riding on the info from the court proceedings.


----------



## M.C. Busman

We can't really comment until we see the picture for ourselves.  The info concerning Mitose's Immigration records posted by Ted Sumner isn't the end all be-all, but it can't be denied.  At the very least, Mitose returned to the U.S. at the date shown, and presented the documents noted.  I don't think Mr. Sumner is making it up, but it would be nifty to see scans & the notary's seal.

This doesn't _yet_ rule out the possibility that Mitose may have made several trips back & forth between Japan & Hawai'i.  Personally, I'd have to see the photos myself to believe.  If people wait too much longer, somebody's going to get scooped and lose their opportunity...


Stay Safe,

M.C. Busman


----------



## M.C. Busman

Or... Maybe you were talking about the 100% of the truth question.

I think the answer is so obvious most of us ignored it.

From the court's perspective truth is what is revealed in court.

From the scientists standpoint, truth = facts

From the sociologists standpoint, truth is based on perception.

People lie in court. Sometimes it is intentional, sometimes they are remiss in their recollection of events. People may be misidentified. People might forget names, dates, amounts. Nothing is ever 100%. The court's job is to ascertain the truth from the facts to the best of his/her/their ability. An imperfect job, but better than the alternative.

Dr. Kenpo wrote: _"Not to worry, he won't. He just likes to start fires and watch em burn. He even shows up to party's w/o bringing anything to the table. Plus that, he comes uninvited."_

Oh! How _dreadful_!


~~M.C. Busman


----------



## BlackCatBonz

so your answer is false? 

shawn


----------



## M.C. Busman

Absolutely.  Outside of certain scientific and physical principles as we know them, (as I said in my last post), if your question is _"also....true or false- 100% of the truth is revealed in a court of law 100% of the time._, my opinion is that nothing is ever 100%, if assuming by "truth" you mean facts.

Even when things are recorded on videotape, there can be two very different interpretaions about what took place (the Rodney King event tape is a good if dated example of this).  Especially in court, the job is to ascertain the facts through the available resources.  Of course, things may be left out, misinterpreted, misremembered, made up...Both the prosector and defense have the job of presenting the facts ("truth") of their position.  It is the job of the jury and/or judge to decide what s/he or they believe based upon the rule of law, jury instructions, and reasoned deliberation upon those facts.


Have a Happy Monday,

M.C. Busman


----------



## M.C. Busman

New Mitose documents have been posted.

Ted Sumner has been publically posting a _mass_ of information on Mitose and other kenpo related martial artists recently.  Historic documents for people who are interested in history.  I've posted this link before, but not in the context of this new material.  See:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com./articles.htm

This is an individual Tracy's Kenpo school site, so if your instructor _forbids_ you to look at anything having to do with Tracy's lineage kenpo (which came through Ed Parker, actually...), you should *not* look here!  Or look and don't tell him.  Your conscience and choice!  The facts speak for themselves...


Have a Super Day,

 M.C. Busman


----------



## GAB

Hi, I would like to say if your instructor, forbids you to read what you want to, run don't walk just as fast as you can and find another instructor.

I.   You are paying for this information, never forget that.

2.   This is a business and without you and others the instructor will not last long.

3.   Information is for the giving and the taking, if the person wants to confuse you with some sort of taking away your freedom's, don't go there.

4.   All the above.

Regards, Gary


----------



## M.C. Busman

Amen to that.


~~M.C. Busman


----------



## GAB

M. C. Busman,

Ah, now that I have your attention, (I think you missed it, because of your post to Seig) Did you see my post regarding the sad story of a man who claimed to have created the crest of ED Parker and received no credit and then hung himself, by accident or not. 

I wonder If I should contact JWW and try and follow this up? For those who would ask why? Because, it is out there. Needs to be discussed and put to rest.

How about the information on the Dick Tercell Story, can you comment on 
the article Will wrote or????

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi Shawn,

I don't know why your request didn't get my attention before this last couple of posts.

You addressed LEO's so I should have at least responded, I hope better late and all that.

Not to be quite so blunt as M.C. But...

The idea that what you read in the newspaper is all true, is about how I would relate the information that is contained in transcripts. There is truth and the story is there but it is generally not all of the story, especially when you are relating it to something like the life of a man as complex as J. Mitose.

I do not think even the lamest DA or PA would be so bad as to let alot of the information that has been claimed to be in the transcripts as has been claimed. It just is not per court rules and I am sure the Judge was not biased in the first place to allow heresay and other non facts into the case.

I believe the system needs some changes but the courts are a funny location to start the change, it needs to start at the very base of the legal system and that is in Law Enforcement. Training, learning the proper procedures to win a case, not just to arrest the person, and then let the courts sort it out.

It should start with a better acadamy, like I say training. Lots of smaller forces don't have proper training, don't have proper people, who want to be in the front lines. 

In the bigger Departments, they have a lot more training because they have much more crime and every type of problem known to man is occuring on a daily bases. 

So anyway, to answer your question, 100% is not even close, neither is 75%. IMO Statistics would back me up, if you would want to go there, but I will pass on that one.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Shawn,
> 
> I don't know why your request didn't get my attention before this last couple of posts.
> 
> You addressed LEO's so I should have at least responded, I hope better late and all that.
> 
> Not to be quite so blunt as M.C. But...
> 
> The idea that what you read in the newspaper is all true, is about how I would relate the information that is contained in transcripts. There is truth and the story is there but it is generally not all of the story, especially when you are relating it to something like the life of a man as complex as J. Mitose.
> 
> I do not think even the lamest DA or PA would be so bad as to let alot of the information that has been claimed to be in the transcripts as has been claimed. It just is not per court rules and I am sure the Judge was not biased in the first place to allow heresay and other non facts into the case.
> 
> I believe the system needs some changes but the courts are a funny location to start the change, it needs to start at the very base of the legal system and that is in Law Enforcement. Training, learning the proper procedures to win a case, not just to arrest the person, and then let the courts sort it out.
> 
> It should start with a better acadamy, like I say training. Lots of smaller forces don't have proper training, don't have proper people, who want to be in the front lines.
> 
> In the bigger Departments, they have a lot more training because they have much more crime and every type of problem known to man is occuring on a daily bases.
> 
> So anyway, to answer your question, 100% is not even close, neither is 75%. IMO Statistics would back me up, if you would want to go there, but I will pass on that one.
> 
> Regards, Gary



Gary, Mitose was not complex. All LEO's have run acroos men like him in their carreers. Very easy to figure out, although some are not violent, some are and some are more violent then others, but a con man is a con man, it's like watching reruns on T.V. or listening to the same song over and over again. Nothing surprising. Nothing complex about it. Court records? Transcripts? Probation officer reports? People that knew him? Put it all together and that is Mitose the man. We're just trying to figure out his martial arts background and lineage. Have doubts about court transcripts? Check out Ted Bundy's, Charles Manson's, tells a lot about the man I think. Okay, they were found guilty. Let's look at those found innocent but who the vast majority believe were guilty. How about O.J.? Jury found him innocent but if one was to read the court transcripts they would get a very good and accurate representation of the 'man'. No what I mean?


----------



## BlackCatBonz

prof joe
in cases were certain criminals were put away and then exonerated due to DNA or other evidence......the lawyers paint a pretty convincing picture of criminal and ugly behaviour to have a jury of their peers put them away in the first place.
also when i was watching a special on some news show.....a forensic scientist said that you could pretty much implicate anyone that lived in 10 block radius of a murder using certain investigating methods.
im not making this stuff up.
so please give me a break

shawn


----------



## John Bishop

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> prof joe
> in cases were certain criminals were put away and then exonerated due to DNA or other evidence
> shawn


You probably don't want DNA evidence in the Mitose case.  Frank Namimatsu had hairs stuck to the blood on his hands.  The hair comparison techniques of the time (1974) showed the hairs to have come from a Asian, but not either of the Namimatsu's.  Since Terry Lee was black, whose hairs might those be?  They were consistant with James Mitose's hairs, but not a 100% match like modern DNA would have provided.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

how can you possibly be sure without DNA testing........wouldnt you think that a japanese man would fraternize with many other japanese? consistent with mitose? how many people do you think spent the remainder of their lives in prison due to consistencies?
like i said before, and i will bring up a case from canada.......a man named guy paul morin was accused of murdering his 8 year old female neighbour by the name of chritsine jessop.......he spent 10 years in prison trying to convince them he didnt do it.....DNA evidence saved him.....what was the investigating teams only evidence? hair and clothing fibres.....like i said, i need something a little more concrete than simply asian hairs that belonged to neither victim or accused. anyone can paint an evil picture of someone else......look how easy it is to paint one of the god loving catholic church lately.

shawn


----------



## GAB

Hi Shawn,

You are right, many things to consider when you are a juror and have, only opinions or information in front of you that someone else feels is relevent to settle the case.

We seem to forget that Lawyers and Jurisprudence is a large business.

The asian hairs, I have heard of it before on this board. Am not sure if I related the thought that Mitose's sister was friendly with Terry Lee? 

That is something to consider. Why Mitose had so little in his defense, regarding his own statements, the confusing remarks and his inability to understand the english language in a court of law. 
He felt that he was responsible, even if he was not the killer he would still bear the burden, just because of the custom of his generation.

I am not saying that he is not guilty, just throwing out some thoughts. 
In the eyes of the court, and the world he is guilty. 
Until some other evidence is brought forward or someone, comes up and confesses, he is the guilty party.:whip: 

Hanshi Bruce trained with Terry Lee, to get a couple of the Kata's that Mitose taught Terry Lee. Who knows what was said, except those two and neither is talking. 
I am not sure if he trained with Mitose's sister or not, but who knows what was said between those two, one is dead and the other is not talking.:idunno: 

We will just have to wait until the Gathering and see what happens then.

Again like I have said before, Johnny Cochran was the DA at the time for Terry Lee, and we know all about Johnny. Good DA, that is for sure.:asian: 

Regards, Gary


----------



## Gojuguy

Regarding the Gathering. My understanding that there is much unrest in the Kai. Some of it concerning Mitose and some of it concerning high ranking members on both the East and West Coast turning their Shihan ranks back in to Hanshi Juchnik. Any truth to the rumours?


----------



## kelly keltner

I am unaware of anything like that.

kelly


----------



## BlackCatBonz

i will say this about the kai from my point of view, hanshi bruce is a great organizer and an even greater teacher.....but, he does not put up with any funny business. i am in no way speaking for hanshi juchnik, i have the greatest respect for him, as he has shown me nothing but the greatest respect a teacher can have for a student on the few occasions that i have had the opportunity to train with him. 
you will see dissension in the ranks of any organization.
i personally think that the members of our organization should concern themselves with kosho-2004 and what is happening right now. learn from the past.....but let it go.
this is something westerners have a tough time doing. i have let politics affect me in the past, but in the end, im in it for me, and the students that i might teach along the way. no one person should follow another blindly as in the old traditions, but one should still afford the head of a system the respect their position deserves. 
we have somewhat of a different viewpoint up here in canada though, and yes....there are a few of us that have agreed to disagree.....but i think thats what happens with individuals, and no one is forcing them to stay or go.
the principles in kosho as it is taught right now are all that matters, and probably to the chagrin of others that are out there that think mitose was an evil man, i teach the same principles that he talked about in his book "what is self defense?"
they are lessons for all to live by. we should not look at ones bad part, but rather the good that is in him.

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> prof joe
> in cases were certain criminals were put away and then exonerated due to DNA or other evidence......the lawyers paint a pretty convincing picture of criminal and ugly behaviour to have a jury of their peers put them away in the first place.
> also when i was watching a special on some news show.....a forensic scientist said that you could pretty much implicate anyone that lived in 10 block radius of a murder using certain investigating methods.
> im not making this stuff up.
> so please give me a break
> 
> shawn



Shawn, now you have to give me a break and John Bishop too. We're all on the same playing field in the martial arts and I take your input on the martial art side of Mitose with much thought and credence, however, when you get into the criminal justice system, respectfully, you're out of your league. John can speak for himself but I have nearly three decades in the system and the trouble today with a lot of arm chair quarterbacking is television. For ratings and dramatic effect all these television shows are coming on giving those with no experience in the field a doctorate's degree in criminal justice and criminology without ever leaving their living rooms. Yes, the system can be somewhat flawed at times, like in everything else in life nothing is 100 per cent and nothing is perfect and innocent people have got screwed just as guilty people have been exonerated but having said this, the system works very well. If you know of a better one, please let us know. Now, when it comes to the debate on Mitose's background, I think it's very interesting and I'm open minded and I always listen to what others have to say BUT you people lose crediability and open themselves up for criticism when they start on the Mitose was framed, Mitose was innocent, Mitose didn't speak good english and couldn't express himself at trial, Mitose was railroaded because of the Charles Manson case and the jury thought he was another cult leader, blah, blah, blah. Just accept the fact that he was guilty as sin and let's just discuss his martial arts background. If you feel he's been railroaded then get together with all of those that do and petition the state of California to re-open the case, it's not impossible, it's been done before. If there's anything there, it can be done.  If there are those that really and truly believe he was innocent and are equally committed as they make off they are, get a slush fund going and do it, better yet, there are most likely some lawyers in Kosho who will offer their services for nothing. Go for it, other than that please let's stick to Mitose: 'The Martial Artist' where the jury is still out.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

> Regarding the Gathering. My understanding that there is much unrest in the Kai. Some of it concerning Mitose and some of it concerning high ranking members on both the East and West Coast turning their Shihan ranks back in to Hanshi Juchnik. Any truth to the rumours?


GojuGuy,

I just spoke with Hanshi Juchnik on the phone and mentioned your comment to him.  He told me that all of the shihans are turning in their belts as this is not going to be used any longer in our kai.  A "shihan" in our organization is a job title.  It has nothing to do with rank.  Different job titles are going to be used.  Hanshi has already spoken to all of his shihans about this.

He also said that there is no unrest in the kai.  There has been a steady growth of new members and only one person has left.  I will speak for myself and say that I am very happy belonging to his organization and being a student of one of the most talented martial artists in the world. 

He is extremely busy with the Gathering only a week away and we couldn't talk as long as I would have liked to.  But I can assure you (and everyone else reading this) that Hanshi Juchnik's organization is going just fine.  Some changes are being made and will become clearer to all kai members during and after the Gathering.  

If someone is a member of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai Intl. then you will find out soon, if you don't already know.  If you are not a member then you shouldn't care anyway. 


Take care,
John Evans  (this is my real name.... what's yours?)


----------



## BlackCatBonz

prof joe
the legal system used today is an archaic throwback to ancient rome......flash forward a few years , you still have the witch hunts and executions.

is what i said in my other post wrong?
did i say mitose was innocent?

people only seem to read the half of my post that gets their knickers in bind

shawn


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> prof joe
> the legal system used today is an archaic throwback to ancient rome......flash forward a few years , you still have the witch hunts and executions.
> 
> is what i said in my other post wrong?
> did i say mitose was innocent?
> 
> people only seem to read the half of my post that gets their knickers in bind
> 
> shawn



Hi Shawn, I still say, although flawed, we still have the best system in the world. When I think of archaic systems, I think of the middleeastern countries-now that's archaic. As far as throwbacks to archaic civilizations, everything has roots just like in the arts. Everything we have or do comes from somewhere many centuries ago. Isn't our country based on Judeo/Christian values of over 2000 years ago, so what's wrong with that? You say our system is archaic and is a throwback from ancient Rome, okay, Kosho Ryu is archaic and is a thowback from the 1940's and is uselss today...I don't really mean that at all but my point is just like Kosho has evolved to fit the practicality of the 21st century so hasn't our legal system and it can't be compared to what was done in ancient Rome! On the other issue, if I misunderstood your post I apologize but I went back to read it and it still appears to me you're grabbing at straws in an effort to defend Mitose's and either prove or raise questions of his innocense. If that was your intent then I feel my response addressed it. Good discussion, Shawn!, You're round, lol.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

prof joe

i mean no disrespect...honest!
you're kind of on track in regards to my post......but my line of thought was not merely to raise questions or prove innocence. it was simply an example of the way that things can (and do) go wrong. this not only applies to mitose, but in everything we do. hence my comments about learning from the past, and letting the past go.
what i am trying to say is this- in our personal investigations of the arts and the things that pertain to them, let's not make the same mistakes that were made before. its like teaching something wrong on purpose, and then showing the right way, so you can see the difference....sometimes its minor.....sometimes its a whole world of difference. the problem lies in the fact that we can miss something even when its right in front of you....by getting caught up in the miniscule details.

shawn

ps. i have the utmost respect for people that work in law enforcement, but, just because someone doesnt work in a particular field, it doesnt mean that they are completely uneducated on the subject, and just because someone works in that field does not make them all knowledgable either.


----------



## Karazenpo

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> prof joe
> 
> i mean no disrespect...honest!
> you're kind of on track in regards to my post......but my line of thought was not merely to raise questions or prove innocence. it was simply an example of the way that things can (and do) go wrong. this not only applies to mitose, but in everything we do. hence my comments about learning from the past, and letting the past go.
> what i am trying to say is this- in our personal investigations of the arts and the things that pertain to them, let's not make the same mistakes that were made before. its like teaching something wrong on purpose, and then showing the right way, so you can see the difference....sometimes its minor.....sometimes its a whole world of difference. the problem lies in the fact that we can miss something even when its right in front of you....by getting caught up in the miniscule details.
> 
> shawn
> 
> ps. i have the utmost respect for people that work in law enforcement, but, just because someone doesnt work in a particular field, it doesnt mean that they are completely uneducated on the subject, and just because someone works in that field does not make them all knowledgable either.



Shawn saids. i have the utmost respect for people that work in law enforcement, but, just because someone doesnt work in a particular field, it doesnt mean that they are completely uneducated on the subject, and just because someone works in that field does not make them all knowledgable either.

I say:  No Shawn, I do respect your opinion on this topic even though it's not your field. Sometimes, I need someone outside my field to get me thinking again, if you know what I mean. We can get locked into our own beliefs and that's not a good thing. That's why I try to stay open minded the best I can. However, by the same token, I hope people understand or at least take into consideration that we, in law enforcement, have 'been there and done that' and should be taken a little more into consideration than the average joe. I don't mean that arrogantly but just because it's our field of expertise.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

This thread still going?  Wow.  When you guys hit the truth, e-mail me.

Dave


----------



## Karazenpo

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> This thread still going?  Wow.  When you guys hit the truth, e-mail me.
> 
> Dave



Dave, it will never happen. Why? For some there is too much hanging in the difference. Some have built a financial empire on the Mitose myths and there is no way their going to let it go. Others got committed over their heads and/or are just following blindly as did Terry Lee over three decades ago. Some will post responses slamming me for saying this but like you stated:This thread still going?  Wow.  When you guys hit the truth, e-mail me. Dave, I thiok I'm taking your advice.


----------



## GAB

Hi Dave and Joe,

We can't let this go until the news is out, and it is very close to becoming 
"I told you so", but which one of us is going to say it? 

Then which one is going to start a different thread to refute that?

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

To All,

We have quite a bit of information about a lot of the stuff that has been covered and it will be forth coming at the Gathering.

I have said this several times, no one is listening, so this will be the last time I say it. Less then 10 days away till it will be pretty well covered. Or covered over?

Actually less then that when it will be revealed, then it will take a few days to gather it all for the internet, then the news will be old news and we/you/them can say that it is not true either. Or so I have been told. 

Regards, Gary


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Dave and Joe,
> 
> We can't let this go until the news is out, and it is very close to becoming
> "I told you so", but which one of us is going to say it?
> 
> Then which one is going to start a different thread to refute that?
> 
> Regards, Gary


With all due respects, Gary, it's not a case of "I told you so", as much as it is "so what"?

As long as there are novitiates willing to pay expert level practitioners for the knowledge of how to throw a better strike, punch, kick, throw, etc., it will not matter to the money being exchanged WHERE the lineage of the information came from. It will not matter to the acolyte who did what 50 or 1,000 years ago, as long as the information related to rubber hitting the road (combat applications of fighting arts) stands the tests it is put to.

Which is more important:
a)  "After training in this program for 3+ years, will I be able to defend myself against an aggressor, demonstrating skill and confidence, and emerging victorious with a minimum of injury?"

...or...

b) "Is the program I'm training in related through lineage to some guy whom I've never met, may not like if I did, and who died decades before I started training in this program?"

The ultimate challenge to the useful application of any given piece of information lies in the words of the *relevancy challenge*: "*So what?".* I've seen nothing in any of these threads that will cause me to change my direction in training, modify how I present the history of my art to students, or even slightly change the price of tea in China.

Percent ratio to relevancy about anything? Zero.

D.

PS -- Don't bother e-mailing me when you find "the truth"...I get enough junk mail already.


----------



## M.C. Busman

Once the facts are known we may have as many questions as when we started trying to put the puzzle together. There is really no purpose in fighting about it until all of the info is out (next month or two, I'd guess--this stuff is coming out like a 10-month old baby  ).

History is history. Practice is practice. A punch is still a punch, regardless (let's not get too technical here!). Asking questions, voicing doubt, that is part of the fact finding. Sometimes we find that there are only hints--not a big, clear answer at the end. Sometimes the facts are spartan, questionable, tenuous, surprising, gut wrenching, mundane.  That is what history is.  Things aren't always clear cut, this is not a court of law we are dealing in.  History is a social science--not a "hard science".  Some may be more convinced than others, and some folks may refuse to adapt their orthodoxy regardless of what comes forth.  Even today, there are very divided camps over things like what happened in Troy, how Kennedy was assasinated, what the Rodney King tape means. 

We might be closer to postulating more believable theories, but there is also the possibility that the more information we get, the more complex the possibilities could become. I've never been tempted to look askence at a practitioner because of his/her lineage. The proof is in the practice. Delving into history is another animal altogether. It really has nothing to do with one's rank, one's level of skill.

In the end, sometimes the hardest thing to do is to step away from the (historical) articles of faith with which one has become comfortable, and consider the alternative. It's human nature to want clear answers, to _know the truth_. We shouldn't expect too much. Uncertainty will always be hanging around and waiting to sweep us off our feet. Let's not make this personal. It isn't believeing in god, ufo's, or krishna (or our trusted martial icons) that will give us character and keep us honest men & women. Actions and examples. Now THOSE I can appreciate! 


Stay Safe, 

M.C. Busman


----------



## BlackCatBonz

amen

shawn


----------



## GAB

I will second that.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

It should prove very interesting. I'm looking forward to the release and as I said before, I'm not rooting for either side to be true, I just would like to have the correct answer to tell my students when they ask. Actually, if the Kosho guys are right, it will make it a lot easier for me for I still have Mitose posted at my school on the lineage wall as the 21st decendant of Kosho ryu, I won't have to change it, lol.


----------



## James Kovacich

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> It should prove very interesting. I'm looking forward to the release and as I said before, I'm not rooting for either side to be true, I just would like to have the correct answer to tell my students when they ask. Actually, if the Kosho guys are right, it will make it a lot easier for me for I still have Mitose posted at my school on the lineage wall as the 21st decendant of Kosho ryu, I won't have to change it, lol.


Do you know when the release is?


----------



## GAB

Hi Joe,

I think that is something that the 22nd GGM should address, I feel that might be up for reevaluation, but as far as Mitose going to Japan or not I think that is closer to the truth.

I would like to see less sniping, by others who really don't care, if they don't care, don't comment.

I believe this is a good thread and will be of value in the future regarding when it all came out, etc. 

Like I said, it is going to be addressed at the gathering,  how much who know's. Hanshi Bruce will control that. I do know, that quite a few things will be addressed. 

I believe you will see a more aggressive, leaner and meaner attitude and more information will be available, just because of these numerous threads that have caused more attention, to the reason some align with Mitose and some who don't.

I wish Hanshi would do some Kumite, some drills, show his stuff. He does not do that, he has a following based on his abilities, if he started to show more action regarding his capabilities, he would have more following. I am pretty sure about that. 

There are quite a few of the masters in many of the organizations that go to his gatherings.

He is an excellent all around Martial Artist. He is really outstanding with the  FMA sticks also the Jo and Bo, yet does not try to impress outside of his own following.

Excellent with the various sharp edged weapons also.

Time will tell. 

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> Do you know when the release is?



I mean't 'The Gathering' that Gary is speaking of. I think he said it's in a couple of weeks.


----------



## The Kai

It's this weekend (25th and 26th).  

Todd


----------



## James Kovacich

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I mean't 'The Gathering' that Gary is speaking of. I think he said it's in a couple of weeks.


 Oh. I was looking for the release of the A&E special. I recently moved and haven't hooked up cable yet. Any idea when it's coming out?


----------



## Karazenpo

akja said:
			
		

> Oh. I was looking for the release of the A&E special. I recently moved and haven't hooked up cable yet. Any idea when it's coming out?



From what I've been told so far, early in 2005.


----------



## kelly keltner

Has anyone been over to the san jose kenpo site I guess Dr. Sumner has posted the birth certs of Mitose and some of his familly.


kelly


----------



## M.C. Busman

Yes, I stopped posting links when something new goes up...just check back at San Jose Kenpo at least once a week!   The discussion usually isn't too bad either.


Happy Monday,

M.C. Busman


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I checked in here for the really great ground-breaking, history shaking news...so, uh, what happened?

D.


----------



## Karazenpo

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I checked in here for the really great ground-breaking, history shaking news...so, uh, what happened?
> 
> D.



Yeah!, Me too!!!


----------



## Doc

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Yeah!, Me too!!!


Once about every half decade or so, someone who has hitched their credibility wagon to Mitose "threatens" to release the hidden "truth." They say the information will be "earth shattering" and will cast once revered masters (other than Mitose) in a bad light. They hold some get together or "gathering" and say they'll give you the information if you show up there. Of course these "Hoot-N-Annies" charge a fee for attendance. Don't hold your breath cause it ain't gonna happen. So what else is new? But I can't reveal anymore than I have on line. However if you PM me I will be holding an auction and will tell the information to the highest bidder. The minimum bid will be roughly equivalent to the price of a new BMW 540 plus tax license, and insurance along with the cost of two weddings for mid-twenties daughters. John Bishop and Joe Shuras are not allowed to participate because they will keep the bidding artificially low. Lets start the bidding please, I've already purchased my driving gloves and tuxedo.


----------



## Karazenpo

Doc said:
			
		

> Once about every half decade or so, someone who has hitched their credibility wagon to Mitose "threatens" to release the hidden "truth." They say the information will be "earth shattering" and will cast once revered masters (other than Mitose) in a bad light. They hold some get together or "gathering" and say they'll give you the information if you show up there. Of course these "Hoot-N-Annies" charge a fee for attendance. Don't hold your breath cause it ain't gonna happen. So what else is new? But I can't reveal anymore than I have on line. However if you PM me I will be holding an auction and will tell the information to the highest bidder. The minimum bid will be roughly equivalent to the price of a new BMW 540 plus tax license, and insurance along with the cost of two weddings for mid-twenties daughters. John Bishop and Joe Shuras are not allowed to participate because they will keep the bidding artificially low. Lets start the bidding please, I've already purchased my driving gloves and tuxedo.



Good one, Doc, good one!! I am really Laughing Out Loud right now!!! and I'm sure John Bishop is too!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> Once about every half decade or so, someone who has hitched their credibility wagon to Mitose "threatens" to release the hidden "truth." They say the information will be "earth shattering" and will cast once revered masters (other than Mitose) in a bad light. They hold some get together or "gathering" and say they'll give you the information if you show up there. Of course these "Hoot-N-Annies" charge a fee for attendance. Don't hold your breath cause it ain't gonna happen. So what else is new? But I can't reveal anymore than I have on line. However if you PM me I will be holding an auction and will tell the information to the highest bidder. The minimum bid will be roughly equivalent to the price of a new BMW 540 plus tax license, and insurance along with the cost of two weddings for mid-twenties daughters. John Bishop and Joe Shuras are not allowed to participate because they will keep the bidding artificially low. Lets start the bidding please, I've already purchased my driving gloves and tuxedo.


:bow: :roflmao:


----------



## GAB

Hi all,

The 17th annual gathering is not over and when it is Hanshi will be back in town.
So when I get some information I will be just as surprised as the rest.

I did not go to it and am not privy to the scoop. 

I did hear that Kell will now be the official Historian for the west coast, I think if he has anything to give he will soon.

If you nice fellows are here just to snip then go for it.

You get ahold of old news and play it like it was fresh.

When you get something that is new, I would be glad to listen and participate.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> The 17th annual gathering is not over and when it is Hanshi will be back in town.
> So when I get some information I will be just as surprised as the rest.
> 
> I did not go to it and am not privy to the scoop.
> 
> I did hear that Kell will now be the official Historian for the west coast, I think if he has anything to give he will soon.
> 
> If you nice fellows are here just to snip then go for it.
> 
> You get ahold of old news and play it like it was fresh.
> 
> When you get something that is new, I would be glad to listen and participate.
> 
> Regards, Gary



Hi Gary, we were promised information and are just anxiously waiting to hear. It's now Wednesday and nothing yet.


----------



## Kosho-Monk

Prof. Shuras,

I'm not sure if Hanshi is back from Oregon yet.  There was an extended training session for a couple or more days on the coast.  I'm not exactly sure when Hanshi is expected back in at his dojo.  

I'm not able to comment on anything that I believe you are looking for.  I do know that the senior teachers of Kosho (not me) spent quite a lot of time in meetings with Hanshi.  Perhaps one of them will be posting here soon.

Sorry that I cannot be of more help.


-John


----------



## GAB

Hi John, Thanks again, we talked to Hanshi today and he will be returning shortly, I guess we will have to wait and see.

Doc, seems to be overly anxious for someone who figures Juchink sucks, kind of funny.:idunno: 

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their favorite martial artist.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Cook

Heres some points to ponder(I'm sure that some of this stuff has already been said) 1- Mitose was by most accounts a pimp and by all accounts an extortionist and a murderer. Is it such a stretch to think that he may have told a fib or two about his martial background?
        2- The Japanese are anal when it comes to keeping records. If sombody somewhere farts and a new system is created,even if it lasts only until his next bowel movement, it is written down. That said how come it's such a chore to find the necessary documentation to validate his claim. 20 plus generations--wheres the paperwork?
        3- Hanshi is a tremendous practioner, a true master of his art, if he made it all up based on his time with Tracy Kenpo,Serrada Escrima,Kuntao Silat, Chi Ling Pai, and Tae Kwon Do and Mitoses' inspiration.Then accept that and move on.
        The rest of this little missive meant to address some current Kai issues. As a life time member of the Kai and a person that has been around Hanshi and the Kosho Camp for roughly 15 to 18 years I feel I have the right to vent at least this once.
        To answer "GojuGuy""(not me by the way), there is a certain amount of unrest in the Kai. A west coast Shihan(MB) turned his belt in before the Kosho Summit in Lake George NY. Jeff Driscoll turned his into Hanshi the night before the East Coast Gathering. In between Dave Lopriore didn't turn his belt in but quit altogether. Other Kai members on the East Coast have either quit or have distanced themselves over what they feel is undue financial burdens placed on them. I have decided to distance myself from the Kai because of what I feel is inappropriate and unBudolike behavior on the part of Hanshi and several of the Shihans. Specifically the treatment of Jeff Driscoll and Carl Long. For those of you that are aware of the situation you know what I mean. For those of you that are not call me (570)875-4838 or email me at cookbob@netscape.net. Don't bother to run to Hanshi and tell on me I have already discussed this with him.
I've chosen to vent at this time because at the Gathering this past weekend my name came up as someone trying to cause trouble. I was quite content to follow the course of action I chose and leave the squabble to everyone else. But since my desire to be left alone wasn't honored I guess I'll wade in just this once. Please don't tell me about the martial saints we all know love and train with. I've been doing this for 36 years and can tell you that masters past present and future all have feet of clay to some degree. So save all your indignation for someone else. I've been around long enough to know where the bodies are buried. 
This is my only posting so I will not be on to debate you. I have left my name and contact information, call me for a resonable discussion.
PS: The big news at the Gathering:
       "Uncle" Larry is the Bucho of sword arts
       Tony Disarro is the Event Bucho
       Mike Brown is the Cultural Arts and Reishiki Bucho
       Rick Wilmont is the Public Relations Bucho
That is all. Later.......................................................Cook


----------



## Doc

Cook said:
			
		

> Heres some points to ponder(I'm sure that some of this stuff has already been said) 1- Mitose was by most accounts a pimp and by all accounts an extortionist and a murderer. Is it such a stretch to think that he may have told a fib or two about his martial background?
> 2- The Japanese are anal when it comes to keeping records. If sombody somewhere farts and a new system is created,even if it lasts only until his next bowel movement, it is written down. That said how come it's such a chore to find the necessary documentation to validate his claim. 20 plus generations--wheres the paperwork?
> 3- Hanshi is a tremendous practioner, a true master of his art, if he made it all up based on his time with Tracy Kenpo,Serrada Escrima,Kuntao Silat, Chi Ling Pai, and Tae Kwon Do and Mitoses' inspiration.Then accept that and move on.
> The rest of this little missive meant to address some current Kai issues. As a life time member of the Kai and a person that has been around Hanshi and the Kosho Camp for roughly 15 to 18 years I feel I have the right to vent at least this once.
> To answer "GojuGuy""(not me by the way), there is a certain amount of unrest in the Kai. A west coast Shihan(MB) turned his belt in before the Kosho Summit in Lake George NY. Jeff Driscoll turned his into Hanshi the night before the East Coast Gathering. In between Dave Lopriore didn't turn his belt in but quit altogether. Other Kai members on the East Coast have either quit or have distanced themselves over what they feel is undue financial burdens placed on them. I have decided to distance myself from the Kai because of what I feel is inappropriate and unBudolike behavior on the part of Hanshi and several of the Shihans. Specifically the treatment of Jeff Driscoll and Carl Long. For those of you that are aware of the situation you know what I mean. For those of you that are not call me (570)875-4838 or email me at cookbob@netscape.net. Don't bother to run to Hanshi and tell on me I have already discussed this with him.
> I've chosen to vent at this time because at the Gathering this past weekend my name came up as someone trying to cause trouble. I was quite content to follow the course of action I chose and leave the squabble to everyone else. But since my desire to be left alone wasn't honored I guess I'll wade in just this once. Please don't tell me about the martial saints we all know love and train with. I've been doing this for 36 years and can tell you that masters past present and future all have feet of clay to some degree. So save all your indignation for someone else. I've been around long enough to know where the bodies are buried.
> This is my only posting so I will not be on to debate you. I have left my name and contact information, call me for a resonable discussion.
> PS: The big news at the Gathering:
> "Uncle" Larry is the Bucho of sword arts
> Tony Disarro is the Event Bucho
> Mike Brown is the Cultural Arts and Reishiki Bucho
> Rick Wilmont is the Public Relations Bucho
> That is all. Later.......................................................Cook



Me thinks there be a tremble in the force Luke. Anxious? Nah, just curious to see if the pattern has changed. It appears on the face of the post, it hasn't and money is playing a large part in the glitch in the Matrix. Surprise! 

For the record; I didn't say Bruce SUCKS (present tense). I said he sucked (past tense) the day I saw him. I really don't know if he continued to suck after that, and I don't know if he still sucks, and could care less whether he continues or not to suck. But he sure sucked big time that day.

I suck
He, she, or it sucks
He, she, or it sucked (big time)


----------



## GAB

Hi Doc,

The last time you and I talked about this particular subject,  you and Bruce in Hawaii, in the time frame you are talking about, and me saying you did not see Bruce and he did not see you. Because he was not there. 

You called him the Yellow haired son? 

Are we revisiting this to get this thread locked also? 

What is your agenda here Doc? You could not be interested unless from what I have seen, to stir, so be it, stir away. 

Old news Doc. This is funny.

Mitose met Bruce in the year of 77, Reyes died in the year 77, Bruce say's he was not at the time and place in 77 or what ever year. When did you and your Teacher, (Parker)feel threatened as to call Bruce, the yellow haired son of Mitose? Before or after Bruce met him?


Regards, Gary


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

GAB said:
			
		

> When did you and your Teacher, (Parker)feel threatened as to call Bruce, the yellow haired son of Mitose? Before or after Bruce met him?
> 
> 
> Regards, Gary


Parker had been doing his own thing for years, and intended to continue doing so for many more.  Curious innuendo.  I seriously doubt, however, that Mr. Parker ever felt "threatened" by much of anything Mr. Mitose & Mr. Juchnik were doing at the time.

Dave


----------



## GAB

Hi Dr Dave, 

If you feel you want to use my words as a quote please feel free to do so, But it would be nice to use them so it is correct. 

I don't believe that is the proper way to quote someone, Dr San.

But then what do I know since you are the Dr. right? Two of you on the same thread, comical.

Yes, Dr. Ed Parker was threatened, at least that is a story that we can discuss if you want to.  

Regards, Gary


----------



## Doc

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Doc,
> The last time you and I talked about this particular subject, you and Bruce in Hawaii, in the time frame you are talking about, and me saying you did not see Bruce and he did not see you. Because he was not there.


Well I do not know where you were at the time but I know where he was. You were not there. 


> You called him the Yellow haired son?


You are at best mistaken. At worse an intentional liar


> Are we revisiting this to get this thread locked also?
> What is your agenda here Doc? You could not be interested unless from what I have seen, to stir, so be it, stir away.
> Old news Doc. This is funny.


As I recall, it was not I who started this thread. and you are not funny. It seems you participate in many locked threads. 





> Mitose met Bruce in the year of 77, Reyes died in the year 77, Bruce say's he was not at the time and place in 77 or what ever year.


According to whom? Once again, you were not there you simply choose to accept your cult leaders word over mine. 


> When did you and your Teacher, (Parker) feel threatened as to call Bruce, the yellow haired son of Mitose? Before or after Bruce met him?


What the hell are you talking about? No such thread exists except in your head with the other voices.

I have decided to take a lesson from my friend Joe and be very blunt. I think there is something wrong with you. I have seen you make posts that are incoherent, incomplete, off topic, and rambling nonsense. I have seen you assign quotations to people who have said no such thing and make racial comments just like the one above. I choose to not answer you because I think you have a problem.  You are disingenuous, off your meds, or purposely argumentive. So, do not PM me anymore wondering why I do not respond to you. DO NOT PM me anymore and accuse me of being Michael Presario on another forum, and tell me what a bad person I am for doing that. DO NOT PM me anymore with your wild accusations and incoherent ramblings. I do not answer you because you have nothing to say. You are stirring the pot and answer your own posts talking to yourself in fragmented responses of nonsense. Seek some professional treatment, get back on the meds, check yourself back in, or put down the bong but dont expect anyone here to respond to your uncivil rants and accusations with anything but disgust. You and the other personalities you post under deserve each other. Seek help, I am not your therapist, nor do I hear confessions. Maybe John Bishop will talk to you. It is clear to me he has the patience of a saint. I do not.
KMA


----------



## GAB

Doc,

Thanks Doc, I believe I was only on the one but I could be wrong.

10 point round for me 8 for you, sorry Doc. I only post as GAB on this one and Gary on another. Come on Doc, don't go there. I have not done that others do. 

Yes I asked you about Presario and yes I apoligized to you about the misunderstanding, so you go off like that, pretty sad, but it was late and you probably were tired or had been drinking, sorry Doc.

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

GAB said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Thanks Doc, I believe I was only on the one but I could be wrong
> 
> Regards, Gary


?????? What??


----------



## tshadowchaser

MOD WARNING
GENTELMEN PLEASE KEEP THE DISSCUSSION POLIT AND RESPECTFUL


----------



## Karazenpo

Okay, here's what it's come down too. Professor Eugene Sedeno's name was mentioned and as far as I'm concerned he's an "A-#1 guy, both as a martial artist and a person-the 'real deal'. Yes, he too was at the prison visits and we talked personally about them a couple years ago. Yet, Professor came back humble, respectful and had no hidden agenda. In all due respect to Hanshi's martial arts abilities, that is not the issue with me or in question, he appears to be an opportunist and took the 'ball and ran'. He saw, like others have done in the arts, a way to make a lot of money. Now, before anyone gets down on me for saying this I have been told this by a member of the Kai and another person who is acquainted with members of the Kai. I've heard things and this is a quote from a member: "When I go to visit Hanshi I leave my checkbook at home" and this comes from a guy that likes him! Studies under him! I'm sorry and no one has to believe me but this is the truth and I know some Kai members are smiling right now because they have experienced the same thing. This, by no means, puts down the system you are learning at all, not at all, because I too was involved in something similiar a long time ago. It reminds me of when Fred Villari at about the same rank as Hanshi (Fred was a nidan, I believe Hanshi was a sandan) had a hidden agenda (exploit the system and make a ton of money) with Professor Nick Cerio and in 1971 took Nick's original curriculum, added some things and ran with it! It is my feelings that is why we are constantly getting the run around on this Mitose thing just like we did when we asked Mr. Villari who he trained under (we were told Chow) and who he got his higher rankings from (secret island in the West Indies). Deja-vous! Financial empires are at stake so as usual, it's all about dollars and cents! Who's kidd'n who?


----------



## Doc

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Okay, here's what it's come down too. Professor Eugene Sedeno's name was mentioned and as far as I'm concerned he's an "A-#1 guy, both as a martial artist and a person-the 'real deal'. Yes, he too was at the prison visits and we talked personally about them a couple years ago. Yet, Professor came back humble, respectful and had no hidden agenda. In all due respect to Hanshi's martial arts abilities, that is not the issue with me or in question, he appears to be an opportunist and took the 'ball and ran'. He saw, like others have done in the arts, a way to make a lot of money. Now, before anyone gets down on me for saying this I have been told this by a member of the Kai and another person who is acquainted with members of the Kai. I've heard things and this is a quote from a member: "When I go to visit Hanshi I leave my checkbook at home" and this comes from a guy that likes him! Studies under him! I'm sorry and no one has to believe me but this is the truth and I know some Kai members are smiling right now because they have experienced the same thing. This, by no means, puts down the system you are learning at all, not at all, because I too was involved in something similiar a long time ago. It reminds me of when Fred Villari at about the same rank as Hanshi (Fred was a nidan, I believe Hanshi was a sandan) had a hidden agenda (exploit the system and make a ton of money) with Professor Nick Cerio and in 1971 took Nick's original curriculum, added some things and ran with it! It is my feelings that is why we are constantly getting the run around on this Mitose thing just like we did when we asked Mr. Villari who he trained under (we were told Chow) and who he got his higher rankings from (secret island in the West Indies). Deja-vous! Financial empires are at stake so as usual, it's all about dollars and cents! Who's kidd'n who?


You're right Joe, and yes I known Eugene. Nice man and a good guy. You're right on the "money."


----------



## GAB

Well Doc,

I have looked for the statement regarding the 'Yellow haired son' and am unable to find it at this time. So I will have to give you that one, looks like I've got to quit listening to those voice's.

The other comments were and are not up to your standard, more like something I would do, but that is OK. Well, maybe you went a little to far but that is OK also, why, because I have been looking at the post when we first clashed, and I will have to admit I was pretty abrupt.

So with that said, I guess we will go down the road to the next fork and see which one we take. I apologize.

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi Professor Joe,

Yes, it is about dollars and cents, that really is what a Capitalist society is all about.

I mean, are you not making money at this, in your school?

Some do it as a full time job, others don't, but all are into paying the bills that come due each and every month. Right or wrong?

I see on Al Tracy's site he is opening more schools, claims in the hundreds in the next few years.  

I see the term Mc Dojo's, I don't see Bruce doing it that way, he is actually pretty reasonable. Regarding many things that are very expensive in this BUSINESS.

I am not in this to make money I am a student, I am not even involved with Kenpo at this time I am into FMA. I have been involved in Kaji and Aikido as a necessary evil, for my defense and others. 
I like FMA because it is pretty much where I am at, I like the work out and the fact is, it has a lot of good things going for it.

Is or was Hanshi Bruce in it for the money yes and no. He has a desire to learn and he has a desire to teach. When he went to that Prison it was a new venture, because he did that, Mitose gets a lot more press then he should.

Actually Hanshi Bruce is sought after for seminars and he is doing just fine with what he wants to do. One thing he does not do is type on the internet.
He doesn't and won't.

Making money in a capitalist society, what a crime.

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

Gab

It seems we have a double standard
Parker cult- Tracy's sex goddess not cult
Parker Money Grubber - Hanshi Surviving in a capitalist society
Parker booted his Black Belts - Hanshi "unrest" in the Kai.

Standards are great - Equal Standards are better


----------



## BlackCatBonz

too many people are eager to point a shameful finger at someone else, and it makes me sick. the martial arts community is like any other artsy community. on the surface when we hob-nob around its all smiles and handshakes, but when the doors are closed human nature's ugly side appears. here are a few jokes that i think are as appropo to martial artists as they are to musicians.
how many guitar players does it take to change a light bulb.......5, one to do it, and 4 to stand around and say how they would do it differently.
how many singers does it take to change a lightbulb.......1, and the whole world revolves around him.
insert martial artist, painter, what have you, it all works.
there are a precious few people around who love music for music, art for the art, martial arts for what they have to offer. 
too many times the so-called purists get into a pissing match, but the end result is just urine.
to the people that wanna pick apart kosho, go and do it in private, and same to those that cant stand what the ed parker people are doing. all of you know who you are, and if you dont, then obviously you are one of the people in the 2nd joke. you have put yourself on some phony martial arts pedestal that rest of the world couldnt give two s**ts about.
the people in these systems are quite happy, and enjoy the things they are doing, to have some joe schmo constantly pick apart something they love.
as far as kosho is concerned, i concentrate on the now, not then. 
as far as mitose sensei's influence, leave it at that. if someone had read his book, and not known the man or his doings, they would think, "hey, what a great way to live one's life by."
instead, they say the lessons mean nothing because of the man it came from. you want a cult? people still go to the catholic church even after the sins propogated against their sons and daughters, thats a crime. the behaviour exhibited by some martial artists is a crime.
im not going to quote bible scripture, but it all boils down to......be nice to each other, for heaven's sake.

shawn


----------



## kelly keltner

GAB said:
			
		

> Well Doc,
> 
> I have looked for the statement regarding the 'Yellow haired son' and am unable to find it at this time. So I will have to give you that one, looks like I've got to quit listening to those voice's.
> 
> The other comments were and are not up to your standard, more like something I would do, but that is OK. Well, maybe you went a little to far but that is OK also, why, because I have been looking at the post when we first clashed, and I will have to admit I was pretty abrupt.
> 
> So with that said, I guess we will go down the road to the next fork and see which one we take. I apologize.
> 
> Regards, Gary


 I believe the verbage was more like "the heir apparent"

kelly


----------



## Karazenpo

Hey guys, I'll try to respond the best I can to several of the posts rather each individually. I'm sincere when I say some good points were made and taken. Okay, making money. Yes, we (Kathy and I) make money to pay the bills and sometimes a little extra here and there. Why? Are we not successful? Yes, we are. I opened Milford's doors on February 1st, 1978 and it's now late in 2004. So, I would say successful. We're more martial arts instructors than business people. One student who has had some hardships ran up a tab for over $800 and he's still with us, how many other schools would have shown him the door? We haven't seen the money yet, either! I'm sure some of you out there have similar examples also.That's why we run it steady but part time. This way we are not forced to compromise our principles and 'heart' to put food on the table and clothes on our back. The only compromise we have ever made over the years was to tone down the 'rough & tumble' Kajukenbo/Karazenpo type of training due to civil liability more than student retention. Like all others I've heard from, to survive we all had to tone down a little. Our quality control however is still not compromised and we do run much tougher classes and testing than many of our competitiors. Now, another comment on 'making money' and not being involved in the McDojo franchises. Like myself breaking off from a franchise chain almost 24 years ago, so didn't Hanshi with Tracy's. As a matter of fact, so did many. I have no problem with that. Now, one cannot be narrow minded and think franchises are the only way to make money off the martial arts because nothing can be further from the truth. Personalized video tape series selling for something in the field of $1500 and when the student receives it he finds it's really not personalized at all. You can get the same thing from Panther Productions for a fraction of the cost. Seminars, tournaments, gatherings, books, association fees, certification fees, t-shirts, jackets, hats, patches and the list goes on. Yes, some of these fees are TOTALLY legit and many of us have them, I have no problem with that either but I am answering the question put forward or the implication I should say that McDojos are the only way to make money. 'Supply and demand'. Many kenpoists have searched in the past to get closer to their roots by studying under their instructor's instructor and even his instructor and so forth down the line. I hear many questions at seminars and get togethers over the years of something like: "What is the original Kenpo?" Now, if someone could jump on and ignite this 'demand' that's out there and create a supply to feed it, well, you make money, a lot of money. That's all I mean't. There are many ways to 'prostitute' the art, not just in McDojos. WAIT! I am not saying the Kosho art is being prostituted at all, I wouldn't know that, just those involved know if they feel their art has been compromised too much. Yes, perhaps prostitute is too harsh ( but it was a term we used years in the arts), 'overly compromised' would be better. Ofcourse, some will respond back and say it is not. Fine but should we all believe that? Why? Well, to answer another statement made about martial artists getting together and all shaking hands and patting each other on the back, all smiles then when they leave and the door closes the knives start flying. I agree with this statement and now pertain it to the question of 'sincerity'? Back to 'some will respond and say 'no' . I have met Kosho people , good people, very talented people who publicly defend the Kai but privately complain about it's focus on 'making money' over sincerely propagating the arts! I have heard this first hand. Businessman first, martial arts instructor second. This did not come from my mouth but some of you out there and those reading, respectfully, know who you are. Now, the Ed Parker thing  mentioned by Gary, I have nothing to do with that and have no double standard in my views which sometimes gets me into arguments with people. If there is a double standard in what I'm involved in and it's beyond my control, I don't defend it but just say, 'good point, you're right'. No art is perfect in the way it is propragated because it's all about the human condition and we have many flaws, however, we all can be judged on a scale of 1-10, if you know what I mean. One other thing, maybe others some of you have met have knocked the 'Kosho' art but I for one don't and never will. It's a fine art and imho, after you scrape beneath the surface, all these Hawaiian-derived kenpo arts that came from the Miose/Chow/Emperado lineage are way more similiar than different. Again, my opinion. It is the practitioners perspective or where their emphasis lies that really distinguishes one kenpo art from another. Oh, I almost forgot. Remember guys, all I ever was trying to get was a sraight answer on the history of our roots for my teaching purposes and my own knowledge, that's it! That's all I ever asked for and it 'mushrooms' into all this B.S. Why is it so hard to answer those three simple questions I proposed in an earlier post? 1) Proof of Mitose as the 21st decendant of his family art called Kosho 2) Proof of him training under his maternal grandfather in Japan 3) Mitose's Okinawan ties to what he taught? That's it! Like I said before, there's not another  lineage that I know of that can't answer simple questions like that in regards to their history!!! but all I get here is the 'runaround', 'word games' and 'secret squirrel'!!!


----------



## GAB

Well said BlackCatBonz,

Kai, Thats true, I am glad you brought that up.

If we all want to just get along, this board would be a good place to do it, but we have different ideas and some times make statements, or mistakes, we apologize, with a PM or on the forum, so big deal.

The thing I am quite taken aback by, is that some one might ramble, make a mistake, make a statement, then this other person will go off. 

Then some how the person, who does all the name calling, and flips out can get by with it because of their position, in an art, or their longivity in one or two systems, their length of time on this board, or the size of their girth.
Yes, I did and do believe Hanshi Bruce, when he tells me he was not at a certain event, it also falls into knowing when certain persons were not around and others were. In my opinion, I believe him, and not Doc.

Someone takes a statement or a word out of context and then tries to play on that, and that is not right but it does happen, is it a biggie? No.

Because I will say I think I might have made a mistake or maybe not, does that deserve a fly off the handle? 

If you don't stay perfectly on the subject matter, does that give someone a reason to call names?

Myself or any other person I have seen, do what Doc does in numerous threads, would be suspended, yet he goes around, and around with this diatribe. You don't see me calling people names. 

I got suspended for saying "got it" three times and not showing respect, (yea, right).

Talk about equal standards, me thinks not. 

The moderators say they are taking a stronger stance on the exact thing Doc has done, he will still be doing it, and feeling safe, me thinks that is pretty sad.

I don't dislike you Doc, I don't dislike the persons I am debating, that is very foolish, does not make sense to me. 

I do dislike some of the hypocrisy, and hyperbole, so I will say something about it. I know, two way street.

I don't mind being criticized, if it is OK for me to be critical also.

But you won't find many post's with that kind of language, and not some sort of disipline taking place, oh well, just an observation, (and I don't mean the thread being locked).

Have a good one, as they say. KMA 367 Doc. We both know what it means, right? 

Regards, Gary

PS. Doc, I did not say I was funny, I said it was funny, and also, what racial remark are you referring to? 
I would appreciate it if you would clairify that one, rather than just say it. 
I will thank you, ahead of time. G.


----------



## GAB

Hi Joe,

I like your post very honest, I have to say one thing. Go ask the 22nd GGMaster.

If he is willing to take the title then he should be the one to explain it.

Am I wrong or ????

Thank's for the clairification.



Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Yes Kel, 
Maybe it was the heir, :ultracool  but I thought it was the hair, that was being talked about. Nice save, wish I could fall back on it, but that would be like falling on my Gatka, (stick).

I will go on the hunt somemore, but I might come up empty handed. :idunno:  
If my glass is half full or half empty, no not the same but it did come to mind.
Lateral boy here. G.....


----------



## Karazenpo

Thanks, Gary.


Gary posted: I like your post very honest, I have to say one thing. Go ask the 22nd GGMaster.

I say: Gary, I thought that is what we have all been doing since we started this thread and others for months now! Didn't the Kai members on this forum make numerous phone calls and e-mails to the 22nd Grandmaster asking such questions, more or less the three I mentioned earlier? If his own people haven't been 'trusted' with the answers then how the heck is he going to entrust them to us? I know, 'secret squirrel stuff'...........Let's face it Gary, as others have stated, it's never going to happen. I give up...... I do sincerely give credit to Shihan Mike Brown of the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai whom I have a great deal of respect for and who has provided me with much information that I have shared with all of you but like I was asked recently and agree with on the San Jose Kenpo Forum-'we need to see the documentation'!


----------



## BlackCatBonz

prof joe
i like and respect your honesty. but let's face facts......this documentation may never be shown or exist at all. is it going to change how you teach your martial arts to your students, or make your students trust you any less? i dont think so.
i agree on a point that doc did make........and i am para-phrasing, not repeating verbatim, but i hope i am conveying the essence of his words...it is important to be judged on your actions now, not on the actions of the men that precede you; when you step on the mat, a student sees and hears only what is in front of him at that moment, your actions and words should speak for themselves.
I do sincerely believe that not every martial art handed down from family member to family member is not documented in japan, and i would think to believe that is silly...
but i am not going to base my beliefs or what i teach on some documentation that may never appear.
i will however teach the densho as it has been taught to me until it is proven otherwise, again, i use the word "proven". not having documentation proves nothing other than the fact it has not been documented. does this make me foolish? maybe, but millions around the world believe in things with no proof.
i know what my skills are......and i think i know the difference between right and wrong, and ultimately thats what matters.
pieces of paper that hang on our walls proudly mean nothing. be the zen teacher that burns the sacred scrolls on a cold night to keep warm. 
pride is what is really at stake here for a lot of people, pride in having "real" history and legitimacy.
if that doesnt happen, then are we a bunch of people waving our hands around in the air because some guy made it all up, and his student was taught in a dream?
i guess so........the whole legend of kosho is that the first guy had someone come to him in a dream and teach him "true self defense".
what a bunch of malarky, eh?

shawn


----------



## The Watcher

Can you prostitute yourself as a person and not your art? If you are plagued with financial problems(an overspending wife, the IRS,etc,to site some examples) is there a way to suck money from the rank and file and still keep the integrity of your art. If you can how much of a strain does it put on you and those closest to you? If you have to make a choice when worlds colide where does your giri lie? Perhaps the answers to these will clear up all the controversy on this thread...................................W


----------



## GAB

Hi all,

I went to the vivisimo search engine, typed in 22nd Great Grand Master Kosho, the query brought up the name of Thomas Mitose and had more for him under that title, I did not check out all of the websites or the information that was there, but like I say, I think GGMThomas Mitose is considered the 22nd and Hanshi Bruce is the root master.

Watcher, sounds like you are off on the wrong foot, I don't know how far you are going with this but, I would be very careful with this information you are trying to disclose or imply. Just my open thoughts, same as yours.

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

As far as Hanshi and the money

All I can tell you is the gathering is very reasonable priced ($200 for the weekend, and usally you can get a deal).  There are instructors there from a variety of the MA"s.  Compared to the other camps I've been to it is one of a kind.
Todd


----------



## Karazenpo

Shawn stated: prof joe
i like and respect your honesty. but let's face facts......this documentation may never be shown or exist at all. is it going to change how you teach your martial arts to your students, or make your students trust you any less? i dont think so.

I say: Shawn, and I respect your position but my point seems to be continually missed on this subject. I would like to make it once and for all totally clear for the record. I only requested this information for historical use only. History is not only one of my hobbies but as I stated again and again, I just would also like to have the proper information when my students ask. And for the last time, it has nothing to do in what I teach, what you teach or what anyone else teaches, it's just getting the right handle on the history of our lineage. That's it! No hidden agendas, no hangups, no other motive. As far as you stating the documentation may never be shown or EXIST than that would mean we've been lied too. I have been told it exists, many on this forum have been told it exists, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai told me it exits of which I have e-mails and have posted information from on this forum, so my question is, what gives?


----------



## Karazenpo

The Kai said:
			
		

> As far as Hanshi and the money
> 
> All I can tell you is the gathering is very reasonable priced ($200 for the weekend, and usally you can get a deal).  There are instructors there from a variety of the MA"s.  Compared to the other camps I've been to it is one of a kind.
> Todd



Agreed Todd, sounds very reasonable to me also.


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi all,
> 
> I went to the vivisimo search engine, typed in 22nd Great Grand Master Kosho, the query brought up the name of Thomas Mitose and had more for him under that title, I did not check out all of the websites or the information that was there, but like I say, I think GGMThomas Mitose is considered the 22nd and Hanshi Bruce is the root master.
> 
> Watcher, sounds like you are off on the wrong foot, I don't know how far you are going with this but, I would be very careful with this information you are trying to disclose or imply. Just my open thoughts, same as yours.
> 
> Regards, Gary



On the lighter side, Gary, for a few laughs here. I would never want to be called a 'root master', LOL, I don't know all the slang used on the west coast but back here in the east, 'root master' has a different meaning! LOL. You owe an apology to Hanshi! LOL.


----------



## The Kai

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Shawn stated: prof joe
> i like and respect your honesty. but let's face facts......this documentation may never be shown or exist at all. is it going to change how you teach your martial arts to your students, or make your students trust you any less? i dont think so.
> 
> I say: Shawn, and I respect your position but my point seems to be continually missed on this subject. I would like to make it once and for all totally clear for the record. I only requested this information for historical use only. History is not only one of my hobbies but as I stated again and again, I just would also like to have the proper information when my students ask. And for the last time, it has nothing to do in what I teach, what you teach or what anyone else teaches, it's just getting the right handle on the history of our lineage. That's it! No hidden agendas, no hangups, no other motive. As far as you stating the documentation may never be shown or EXIST than that would mean we've been lied too. I have been told it exists, many on this forum have been told it exists, the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai told me it exits of which I have e-mails and have posted information from on this forum, so my question is, what gives?


It seemsd if you are banging the drum about your history/lineage you gotta back it up.  To play on it, then when the questions get to hot say - well it does'nt matter is kinda a cop out
Todd


----------



## DavidCC

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> I would never want to be called a 'root master', LOL.


My finacee calls me that... artyon:


----------



## GAB

Hi Joe,

Well I guess some words do get twisted, and used for different meanings:idunno: 

Joe, whatever do you mean?:ultracool Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> 
> Well I guess some words do get twisted, and used for different meanings:idunno:
> 
> Joe, whatever do you mean?:ultracool Regards, Gary



Well, Gary, way back in the 70's when Fred Villari founded United Studios of Self Defense, he was listed as the 'Headmaster', needless to say, that term is no longer used out here either!, LOL. So take it from there! LOL. Hey Dave, I guess 'root master' can be used in that way also but I guess you know what I was thinking as to how I've heard it used out here! LOL.


----------



## DavidCC

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> 
> Well I guess some words do get twisted, :ultracool Regards, Gary


that's just gross :barf:


----------



## BlackCatBonz

all i have to say is that there are plenty of martial arts schools out there with questionable backgrounds, teachers, founders, lineage........its not a cop out.....lots of guys through out history have inflated their story a wee bit to make their brand seem more appealing. i like what i study right now, history be damned, and i am sure a lot of other practitioners feel the same way. 
sure i would like to know the truth.....but in the end, it doesnt change what is happening at this moment, only the story.

shawn


----------



## kelly keltner

It would seem this thread has finally worn itself out.


kelly


----------



## DoxN4cer

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> all i have to say is that there are plenty of martial arts schools out there with questionable backgrounds, teachers, founders, lineage........its not a cop out.....lots of guys through out history have inflated their story a wee bit to make their brand seem more appealing.
> 
> shawn




Yep, there's a lot of that going on.


----------



## GAB

Hi David,

Like I have said before, if you are going to use the quote, use the whole quote.
Otherwise, I don't believe it is correct procedure.

Obviously you don't feel it is incorrect, so lets check with the people who view these posts.

What is the thought pattern on this board?:idunno: 

Regards, Gary:uhyeah:


----------



## kelly keltner

Oh come on we don't need to quote entire posts. That would mean it would be impossible to take things out of context.  What fun would that be?


kelly


----------



## GAB

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Oh come on we don't need to quote entire posts. That would mean it would be impossible to take things out of context. What fun would that be?
> 
> 
> kelly


KK
I will have to give that one to you, I have noticed when in a discussion and the facts are there for the proof, or not, they just leave, no KMA, Nada..
G


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> KK
> I will have to give that one to you, I have noticed when in a discussion and the facts are there for the proof, or not, they just leave, no KMA, Nada..
> G



Ahhh, Gary, what proof? What facts? I asked three questions and I directed them to the Sei Kosho Shorie Kai, Hanshi Juchnik's organization. Correct? I was told on this forum that we would have our answers after the weekend 'Gathering', then when nothing happened by Tuesday, we were then told that the 'Gathering' was still going on and that there would be these so-called 'revelations' at the end of that week. Well, it's now October 16th and not one post containing any answers to our questions or any revelations, Nada, from the "Gathering' or the S.K.S.K.  NOTHING! Did you ever stop to think that we've just given up because of all this runaround we got? Hell, I'm going to miss it because we got so much runaround from you guys that I didn't have to do any cardio during this discussion, LOL. When you can post information from the Gathering and the Sei Kosho Shorei Kai regarding our questions then myself and I'm sure the others will resume the discussion but until then, it's just getting old...............


----------



## GAB

Hi Joe, 
Yes I have thought that same thing. I was hoping that I would see some post from Kell, but he is not saying much. 
I have been busy with a couple of projects and seminars. 

I will ask my son to talk to Hanshi next week when he is at his private and see what is happening

The interesting thing about what I thought would be information to help with the topic at hand, turned out to be a reorginization, an that was the big information that was coming out.:idunno:

I felt let down myself.  :whip:  I think Dr. Ted Sumner, has been very cooperative. I understand more is to come from that direction.

All I can say is I am waiting myself, from your side regarding when the interviews of Hanshi and Master Al will happen?

I don't personally think you are questioning Hanshi's Credentials, are you? That would be foolish. What I think is the problem is (and I have said it many times,) Hanshi does not post on the net, I have tried to have an e-mail thread with many of the masters, some answer some don't. I don't bad mouth them I just don't get to talk to them. 

Frustrating, but I would not berate them.   

Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Joe,
> Yes I have thought that same thing. I was hoping that I would see some post from Kell, but he is not saying much.
> I have been busy with a couple of projects and seminars.
> 
> I will ask my son to talk to Hanshi next week when he is at his private and see what is happening
> 
> The interesting thing about what I thought would be information to help with the topic at hand, turned out to be a reorginization, an that was the big information that was coming out.:idunno:
> 
> I felt let down myself.  :whip:  I think Dr. Ted Sumner, has been very cooperative. I understand more is to come from that direction.
> 
> All I can say is I am waiting myself, from your side regarding when the interviews of Hanshi and Master Al will happen?
> 
> I don't personally think you are questioning Hanshi's Credentials, are you? That would be foolish. What I think is the problem is (and I have said it many times,) Hanshi does not post on the net, I have tried to have an e-mail thread with many of the masters, some answer some don't. I don't bad mouth them I just don't get to talk to them.
> 
> Frustrating, but I would not berate them.
> 
> Regards, Gary



Hi Gary, Hope all is well. Who's Master Al? No, of course not as far as questioning Hanshi's credentials. I respect all my seniors unless they give good reason not to, you know, guys that turn out bad, criminally, serious stuff. Hanshi is a well respected senior by many. I'm not questioning his abilities what-so-ever. It just seems that many feel the rightful heir to Kosho is Thomas and they have made good points in explaining why. That's where I'm kind of lost as both sides make good arguments. Yes, Dr. Ted is doing an excellent job releasing this info so why can't Hanshi?


----------



## GAB

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Gary, Hope all is well.
> *****Good thanks yourself? G
> 
> Who's Master Al?
> 
> *****Al Tracy Head of the Tracy system.
> 
> No, of course not as far as questioning Hanshi's credentials. I respect all my seniors unless they give good reason not to, you know, guys that turn out bad, criminally, serious stuff. Hanshi is a well respected senior by many. I'm not questioning his abilities what-so-ever.
> 
> *****Thank you, Hanshi I am sure he will appreciate that when I relate it to him.
> 
> It just seems that many feel the rightful heir to Kosho is Thomas and they have made good points in explaining why. That's where I'm kind of lost as both sides make good arguments.
> 
> *****Yes.
> 
> Yes, Dr. Ted is doing an excellent job releasing this info so why can't Hanshi?   :idunno:


Regards, Gary


----------



## Karazenpo

GAB said:
			
		

> Regards, Gary



Thanks, Gary, you couldn't be any more honest than that! Doing fine, thanks for asking...We've been real busy on the P.D.though. You would have been proud of me the other day, lol, I had to chase down a 25 year old who just burglarized a home, bad dude, 11 warrants, 48 counts, long history of violence including a shooting, on the lamb for two years, blah, blah blah, but the important thing is I caught him after a foot chase at 52 years old! LOL, see there is still hope for us senior citizen martial artists!, LOL.


----------



## kelly keltner

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Thanks, Gary, you couldn't be any more honest than that! Doing fine, thanks for asking...We've been real busy on the P.D.though. You would have been proud of me the other day, lol, I had to chase down a 25 year old who just burglarized a home, bad dude, 11 warrants, 48 counts, long history of violence including a shooting, on the lamb for two years, blah, blah blah, but the important thing is I caught him after a foot chase at 52 years old! LOL, see there is still hope for us senior citizen martial artists!, LOL.


 Way to go Joe.

kelly


----------



## Karazenpo

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Way to go Joe.
> 
> kelly



Thanks, Kell, lol.


----------



## The Kai

Fleet of foot and stout of heart

Great Job
Todd


----------



## GAB

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Thanks, Gary, you couldn't be any more honest than that! Doing fine, thanks for asking...We've been real busy on the P.D.though. You would have been proud of me the other day, lol, I had to chase down a 25 year old who just burglarized a home, bad dude, 11 warrants, 48 counts, long history of violence including a shooting, on the lamb for two years, blah, blah blah, but the important thing is I caught him after a foot chase at 52 years old! LOL, see there is still hope for us senior citizen martial artists!, LOL.


Hi Joe,
You sound like you are still doing what they pay you for. You should of known if he ran, probably your instinct kicked in and helped you out...

I hope he did not resist and you had to choke him out... LOL

Good going Joe, proud of you... Be careful out there, I like talking to you...

Regards, Gary


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## Doc

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Thanks, Gary, you couldn't be any more honest than that! Doing fine, thanks for asking...We've been real busy on the P.D.though. You would have been proud of me the other day, lol, I had to chase down a 25 year old who just burglarized a home, bad dude, 11 warrants, 48 counts, long history of violence including a shooting, on the lamb for two years, blah, blah blah, but the important thing is I caught him after a foot chase at 52 years old! LOL, see there is still hope for us senior citizen martial artists!, LOL.


A genuine coveted "Attaboy." He would have got away if it had been me. Be careful out there.


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