# Master Tao Ping Siang



## oaktree (Aug 20, 2012)

Tao Ping Siang
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Ping-Siang




http://www.taiji-europa.de/taichi-taiji/push-hands-tui-shou/push-hands-dr-tao-ping-siang/
This one you need to convert to English.

Master Tao's principles are awesome. My teacher trained with Master Tao and I learned some of his Tuishou principles.
 I really like the softness and his ability to create space and always find space. There is always space and you have enough space to yield.

I found this out during Tuishou. My teacher pushed me and I yield, He kept pushing I was yielding but I had no where left to go I was going to go off balance.
 I told my teacher I am yielding, I need to change, my teacher said there is plenty of space. I saw none obviously my teacher is extended yet still has root, I am yielding yet I am loosing root and falling backwards. Where is the space? Where do I go? I can not push back my teacher says I need to yield.

I sink, I sink low and Lower on my legs my teacher keeps pushing forward but I am low and my teacher is uprooted!
 That is when a light bulb went off in my head about Master Tao, there is always room you just need to know where it is.

It was a humbling experience to understand such a principle. I thought about the principle in life. Sometimes we are met with such opposition that we yield and no matter how much we do so we feel we are loosing ground and think we have to push back, but in understanding Master Tao's principle we can find that space we need in order to yield effectively. 

Anyway this was just something I thought I share, I find Tuishou an excellent training tool not just in dealing with opponents but also in dealing with people in general.


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## RodUpward (Jun 1, 2013)

Hello ...

I trained with Tao Laoshr from 1987 to 1990 seven days a week whilst living in Taipei. (Before this I trained in the YMT system and the Neigong from Wang Nyen-yen every morning and six evenings a week for two years. I also trained in the Tzu Men Chuan with Ching Chen Yen who trained me for five years for free. Mr Chin and I became good friends and I also became an inside student of Mr Chin after training with him for about two years three mornings a week. I am not aware of another Westerner who has a teaching certificate in the Tzu Men Chuan although I know of a number who do teach. 

After six months I did the kowtowing formality with Tao laoshr and became an inside student of the Tao Laoshr in the Five Willow Tai Chi Chuan Association.

As your kung fu brother, I wanted to provide you with a couple more suggestions that may help you understand the notion of yielding if that is okay.

Therefore:

Yielding is not a 'stand alone' concept. It is perhaps better to consider it within the larger notions of relaxing, lightness and unifying the body. (Note: Most people interpret relaxing in a way that is counter-productive. It is not a dead, passive or heavy way of moving, rather light and sensitive. If used with the following notions it can deliver superior control regardless of the strength of the opponent. Equally, lightness does not = soft or heavy. Rather sensitive, like an insect antennae when touching an obstacle. You should observe this, because of course, the concept model of Tai Chi Chuan is predicated upon observing nature. Watch an insect that has antennae and you will see what I mean. When they touch an obstacle it is not just the antennae that move but the whole body as one 'unified' mass connected to the antennae/'hands'.) 

Unifying the body means connecting the movements of the upper and lower body, but guided by the waist. (Tai Chi Chuan is a legs and waste kung fu as Tao Laoshr was fond of saying). Once the above two concepts are clearly understood, you need to work on listening skills, (this has a specific process to follow), sticking, then protecting, yielding, following and neutralizing and so on ... 

Coincidentally, I was writing earlier today about the notion of Fa Jing, which is the ultimate purpose of acquiring the above skills. In summary, a useful way of considering this practical skill relates to how you can defeat an attack and 'discharge' the attacker. The fact is there are a number of ways of doing this. For example, you can apply Hwa Jing, turning energy, (Imagine you are a sphere comprised of your two feet, body and your opponents attacking line. Then, consider a triangle which you can use to discharge the opponent), Uprooting energy, (raise the direction of the attack, draw in, relax and then release). These are both examples of a number of energies that lead to Fa Jing or discharge skills.

One final point. Tai Chi Chuan is a superior self defense, but most people around the world, and indeed in China too, do not have the opportunity to study the real thing. 

Tai Chi Chuan is a vital point kung fu and fundamental to its effectiveness is understanding the term "Shr Chung" or 'not too much and not too little'. In many respects, good kung fu is good kung fu regardless of its cultural nuances. If I consider Western boxing a good Western boxer applies many of the concepts that are fundamental to Tai Chi Chuan. Regrettably, on the other hand, many practitioners of Chinese boxing do not understand the importance of full contact training. It is for this reason that styles like Tai Chi Chuan, Aikido and Wing Chun have an undeserved negative reputation in real fighting. They are all great martial arts, but if the training regime they are taught within does not include full contact training, then it is very difficult to understand how to effectively apply concepts like 'shr chung' etcetera. Push Hands is really simulated real fighting so any push should also be considered as a strike.

A couple of final words about Tao Ping Shiang. Tao Laoshr was a wonderful man. He had excellent English and was interested in all people. He did not discriminate against someone who was not Chinese. However, he did not like Japanese people because his first love was murdered by them in the 'rape of Nanjing'. The only time I have seen Tao laoshr angry and use inappropriate language was when a Japanese man turned up to class at Sun Yat Sen Memorial and asked to train with him. Tao laoshr told him in no uncertain terms what he could do with that idea.

Tao laoshr was a generous spirited person and always willing to share his skills with anyone he believed to be of good character and willing to work hard. He rarely ate meat, however, could not resist prawn dumplings. Most of the time he ate very simply - lots of fruit and rice and vegetables. He was an excellent acupuncturist and well respected in all kung fu circles in Taiwan. He had no real significant political power in the kung fu scene, however, I know that I will never meet someone of his ability again. I am not sure where you come from, however, one person I know in the US who knows a great deal about both Tao laoshr's traditional medicine and his Tai Chi Chuan skills is Tony Zaynor from Chicago. 

Tao laoshr was trained as an engineer so understood the physics that underpinned much of the ideas in Tai Chi Chuan. Now, he would hate me saying what I am about to say, (he was a humble man who always preferred a low profile), but, Tao, in my opinion was the best of the five senior students of Cheng Man Ching. In fact, it is my opinion that he took the push hands skills further than his teacher for a number of reasons. 

Tao laoshr was the archetypal Tai Chi master  and he would hate to be labelled as a master, because he always saw himself as a student of kung fu. He was the person that every student of Tai Chi Chuan or martial arts dreams of studying with, but rarely does. Perhaps more importantly, he was a true Renaissance man who typified the best of Chinese culture and humanity. He was my teacher, my friend and I will always miss him - as we all do for people who have passed on - who have made a deep an abiding impression on us.

If you want to contact me to explore this type of thing in more detail I am not that hard to find ...

Regards

Rod Upward




oaktree said:


> Tao Ping Siang
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Ping-Siang
> 
> 
> ...


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## d49829 (Jan 25, 2017)

I attended a seminar that Dr. Tao Ping Siang taught in Indiana years ago, and after expressing skepticism about what I had seen, Tony (Bernie) Zayner, who I had been learning Tuishou from, introduced me to Dr. Tao, and invited me to attempt pushing him.  Although I had been a wrestler, had over 20 years of experience in various martial arts at that point, and could do backflips, and walk on my hands, I looked like a drunken fool in front of Dr. Tao.  Tony urged me not to hold back as I tried to unseat the elderly Master who effortlessly redirected my futile attempts, while smiling and looking as if he were watching a play.  When Tony said something to him in Chinese, his smile broadened, he nodded, and the only way I could describe it is that it felt as though the wood floor had turned to ice.  Suddenly, I was losing my balance, my feet sliding around as if on a slick surface, and then I was stumbling backwards completely out of control.  Did not feel him push or exert any force in my direction, it was as if I was suddenly slipping and sliding completely on my own.


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## greytowhite (Jan 29, 2017)

What's with the drive-by posting in praise of Tao? Interesting.


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## d49829 (Jan 31, 2017)

I just happened upon this, and was happy to see a posting about a former teacher.  I had hoped that this was an open forum for discussing various aspects of the martial arts, but considering your disrespectful reference to Dr. Tao and the sarcastic nature of your post, I may have misjudged the site?


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## greytowhite (Jan 31, 2017)

No disrespect intended, I don't know the man and can't speak on his skill. It happens a lot online that someone learned from a teacher, join a community, and only post one thing - a positive review. This is called drive-by posting when there is no wider interaction or participation in a community. RodUpward's post is the quintessential drive-by but it seems you are interested in the community as a whole, good.

So what about his skills outside of push hands? Was Tao known for full contact fighting at all? Did he participate in any wresting matches like his gong fu brother Huang Xingxian? Was he known for fighting in competitions like William C.C. Chen?

Another thing to remember is that this is online, you can't really infer tone from text posts so please try not to take too much personal that isn't directly pointed at you.


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## 23rdwave (Feb 1, 2017)

greytowhite said:


> What's with the drive-by posting in praise of Tao? Interesting.



Whenever someone posts about Serge Augier on RSF all his students log in to sing his praises (the only time they ever post anything). I consider these types of posts to be more for advertisement than discussion.


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## greytowhite (Feb 1, 2017)

Yeah I've seen the same thing. I think it's a credibility thing on Serge's lineage as if people want to affirm that he really has skill. I don't know why so many of these teachers claim an incredible lineage taught by some unknown when much of their knowledge is gained from people that others can trace them to training with at one time or another or the seminar circuit. Mostly people keep quiet about it - my sifu hates that he lost a student to Max Christensen and Chris Matsuo. Granted my teacher doesn't talk much about the esoteric side of his own practice - that's his thing, doesn't expect us to want anything more than the xingyibagua.


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## d49829 (Feb 2, 2017)

greytowhite said:


> No disrespect intended, I don't know the man and can't speak on his skill. It happens a lot online that someone learned from a teacher, join a community, and only post one thing - a positive review. This is called drive-by posting when there is no wider interaction or participation in a community. RodUpward's post is the quintessential drive-by but it seems you are interested in the community as a whole, good.
> 
> So what about his skills outside of push hands? Was Tao known for full contact fighting at all? Did he participate in any wresting matches like his gong fu brother Huang Xingxian? Was he known for fighting in competitions like William C.C. Chen?
> 
> Another thing to remember is that this is online, you can't really infer tone from text posts so please try not to take too much personal that isn't directly pointed at you.


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2017)

greytowhite said:


> No disrespect intended, I don't know the man and can't speak on his skill. It happens a lot online that someone learned from a teacher, join a community, and only post one thing - a positive review. This is called drive-by posting when there is no wider interaction or participation in a community. RodUpward's post is the quintessential drive-by but it seems you are interested in the community as a whole, good.
> 
> So what about his skills outside of push hands? Was Tao known for full contact fighting at all? Did he participate in any wresting matches like his gong fu brother Huang Xingxian? Was he known for fighting in competitions like William C.C. Chen?
> 
> Another thing to remember is that this is online, you can't really infer tone from text posts so please try not to take too much personal that isn't directly pointed at you.


I think master Tao was more interested in principle and health. My teacher never spoke of Master Tao about any matches however from what I learned from my teacher and compared it to say Chen stylist or other yang people definitely a very soft feel to it.


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## d49829 (Feb 2, 2017)

I consider referring to a Master by their last name as disrespectful.  Dr. Tao encompassed what we all should ascribe to, discipline, humility, and a life dedicated to perfecting his art.  The person I was learning Tai Chi Chuan from, in 1990, told Wm C.C,Chen that he wanted to learn true softness, and was advised to move to Taiwan and study under Dr. Tao.  Most of what I learned about his softness came from Tony Zayner when he returned to the United States.

My martial arts training began in 1970, so I was exposed to many systems through the years, and met some amazingly talented people, but Dr. Tao is the only one who was able to unseat me so effortlessly.  As I said in my earlier post, it felt as though the floor had turned to ice as my feet slipped and slid, while I could barely tell that he was even touching me!  As far as full contact fighting, I really don't know, other Masters told of fighting when they were young, but I don't remember Dr. Tao ever speaking of it.  Tony said that in addition to having been an aeronautical engineer, he was also a General in Chiang Kai Shek's Army, so may have experienced real fighting? 

Here is a brief bio copied from taichicorner.net :
*Grandmaster Tao Ping-Siang*
The late Grandmaster Tao, a doctor of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine, devoted his life to the study of Chinese martial arts. Beginning his studies in childhood in the Shaolin style Spring Leg he gradually turned toward the Nei Chia(inner) systems; Liu-ho Pa-fa (Water Style boxing), Tai Chi Chuan, Hsing I and Pa Qua Chang.

Those who taught him were all famous masters. Never actively seeking out teachers, Dr. Tao was introduced to each of his new masters by his former ones, becoming a closed-door student to many of them. The two teachers who had the greatest influence on him were Great-Grandmasters Wu Yi Hui and Professor Cheng Man-Ching.

Dr. Tao was influenced by all he observed and he later came to integrate the knowledge gained through understanding the relationships among the different disciplines. His level of achievement was the result of accumulated experience through long study and practice and he was known as the Master of the Soft Way.

Preferring to keep a low profile, Master Tao was not well known to the general public and shared his wealth of knowledge and experience with those who have a common interest.


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## oaktree (Feb 2, 2017)

Calling someone master or sifu and using last name is usually not disrespectful why you feel disrespected is on you I guess. 

Just for reference I asked my native wife in Chinese if perhaps I was using a disrespectful word or way in addressing a teacher as I was taught in Chinese this is proper addressing a teacher.


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## d49829 (Feb 3, 2017)

I don't imagine there will be anything I can say that you won't counter with an explanation of why you cannot be wrong.  That type of attitude will get you far in the martial arts!  Good luck on your journey!


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## oaktree (Feb 3, 2017)

d49829 said:


> I don't imagine there will be anything I can say that you won't counter with an explanation of why you cannot be wrong.  That type of attitude will get you far in the martial arts!  Good luck on your journey!


So understanding Chinese language and consulting with a native speaker to confirm if my understanding of the language and context is correct will get me far? Not sure what your post is referring to and about.


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## oaktree (Feb 3, 2017)

d49829 said:


> I don't imagine there will be anything I can say that you won't counter with an explanation of why you cannot be wrong.  That type of attitude will get you far in the martial arts!  Good luck on your journey!


For the record my native wife is curious is how you would address a teacher.


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## greytowhite (Feb 5, 2017)

Wow, this guy is a little off... It's pretty common in many foreign cultures to address someone by their family's name and then only by their given name if that person is close. Even my good friends from other countries call me by my last name, I take no offense to it, it's a label I use...


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