# So, What do you think?



## John Bishop (Jan 25, 2003)

I year Video Black Belt Program

http://stevespry.com/

Total: $4491.00


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 25, 2003)

If you only care about impressing your idiot friends who don't know any better... why not? .  I am sure some will go for it.

Heck, there must be some going for a lot cheaper than that price too. lol


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 25, 2003)

*Not a whole hell of a lot...*


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## Sigung86 (Jan 25, 2003)

Thank you Elder Grand Mastur Steve Spry!

I have plunked down my hard earned money and am now studying in the privacy of my own home with the free uniform and your autographed poster to guide and direct me.  Plus, when I feel my intensity lagging ... Why I just stop and read a volume of Curious George!

Thank you!  Thank You!  THANK YOU!!!  I know that in no time at all (what is a year anyway) I will be a feared Man among men.  Women will swoon over me and lesser men will step aside when I walk in to Wal-Mart.  They will immediately recognize the set of my jaw and my steely-eyed stare that comes from knowing that I am a registered, legal, lethal killer.

I really plan to start my first lesson next week!

Thank you  Elder Senior Great Grand Master Steve Spry!

BTW... Where do I get a copy of the Bible like you read?  And whatever happened to your long hair?

Your most enamored and ingratiating student.

Dan Farmer


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 25, 2003)

Um, What's up with the belt on the bottom right hand of the page on the bottom? Very unusual striping.


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## jfarnsworth (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Thank you!  Thank You!  THANK YOU!!!  I know that in no time at all (what is a year anyway) I will be a feared Man among men.  Women will swoon over me and lesser men will step aside when I walk in to Wal-Mart.  They will immediately recognize the set of my jaw and my steely-eyed stare that comes from knowing that I am a registered, legal, lethal killer. *




:rofl: :rofl: Mr. Farmer that was way too funny.:rofl: :rofl: 
At least I thought it was funny.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by John Bishop _
> *I year Video Black Belt Program
> 
> http://stevespry.com/
> ...



This guy has been in business for so many years it's ridiculous and I still can't figure out why but I do have to admit, with what he's selling he could probably sell ice to eskimoes so I have to admire that trait.   He's a Kenpo wannabee and arranged to have rank well above his original instructor and  his students are indicative of his abilities.       I just can't believe how long his students buy into his B***Sh** and keep coming back and line up for more cuz when it comes to Kenpo, he don't know squat.

You should also try to join the Martial Arts Masters Hall of Fame which will cost you in the vicinty of $1000  LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## D.Cobb (Jan 25, 2003)

I'm not impressed!

I have seen 2nd Black, for sale via 2CD set for around US$250, also including the belt and the certificate.

BTW what the hell, is an "Elder Grand Master"?
--Dave


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## Sigung86 (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *I'm not impressed!
> 
> ...
> ...



It's a guy who puts on a gi and a belt and using subterfuge and schemy, glitzy websites, goes after your wallet! :lol:

Dan


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## Klondike93 (Jan 25, 2003)

Umm, yeah, cool belt. Yeah that's it cool belt............:barf: 


:asian:


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## sammy3170 (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> * BTW what the hell, is an "Elder Grand Master"?
> --Dave *



Maybe he's a mormon!!

Cheers
Sammy


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## GouRonin (Jan 26, 2003)

Clyde, I think you're being unfair. Everyone starts somewhere. You started with IKCA. Back in the day at one point I was in a Steve Spry affiliate school. (No worries, it didn't last long.)

There will always be those who are happy with where they are and those who will always be looking to improve themselves.

By the way, the belt is a new type of ranking system he came up with. A first degree has a 5 inch block with a black stripe on the block. A second would have 2 black stripes on the block. A 5th would have a red 5 inch block with a 4 inch black block on it. and so on...I know because at one point someone tried to sell me one of these things.

I've been in some weird and wacky places and this was just one of the stops as I turned the corner into..._"The Kenpo Twilight Zone."_


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 26, 2003)

I wanna belt like that, but what the hell is a Makua?

Is it just me, or does this sly dog look pleased with himself?

Must be all the money he's gotten from the three people that bought his bullcrap!


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## Michael Billings (Jan 26, 2003)

.. and prosper.  I guess if you live long enough you get to see some pretty interesting things.  I gues Mr. Spry has found a way to prosper.  It is better than Chief Romans, $999 black belt, with no 1 year accelerated course.  

Remember, you gets what you pays for.

Hee-hee,
-Michael


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## Klondike93 (Jan 26, 2003)

Look how long that stupid belt is!! That thing goes down to his knees. He tries to do anything he's going to hit him-self in the face with it and probably get knocked out by it   

He does seem to have that hound in the hen house look though doesn't he  :shrug: 


:asian:


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## bahenlaura (Jan 26, 2003)

Man, I really want to say something but, then again, well what the hell,

 :soapbox: 

"When people continue to talk about me, good or bad, I must be important."
Senior Grand Master Ed Parker


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by bahenlaura _
> *
> "When people continue to talk about me, good or bad, I must be important."
> Senior Grand Master Ed Parker
> ...



I have a tendency to say the word crap quite often, and I can think of a few good reasons that it might be important.

1. It is bad when you step in it.
2. Worse when you track it into the house.
3. And down right wrong if you have to smell it for too long.
4. Sucks to clean it up.
5. It's unwanted/discarded by most people.

I would venture to say that Mr. Spry has alot in common with those things I mentioned above, and in that sense... He's important.


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## bahenlaura (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I have a tendency to say the word crap quite often, and I can think of a few good reasons that it might be important.
> 
> 1. It is bad when you step in it.
> ...



 
LOL.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I would venture to say that Mr. Spry has alot in common with those things I mentioned above, and in that sense... He's important. *



Yeah, and when he step on his belt, he might be funny too. I'd rather be important in a respectable way... like being a professional clown or so:rofl: :rofl:


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *Yeah, and when he step on his belt, he might be funny too. I'd rather be important in a respectable way... like being a professional clown or so:rofl: :rofl: *



I agree 100%!


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## cali_tkdbruin (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I have a tendency to say the word crap quite often, and I can think of a few good reasons that it might be important.
> 
> 1. It is bad when you step in it.
> ...



*Mr. Lear*, your posts never fail to keep me in stitches...   :rofl:

:boing2:


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## bahenlaura (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin _
> *Mr. Lear, your posts never fail to keep me in stitches...   :rofl:
> 
> :boing2: *



I second that!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## jazkiljok (Jan 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I wanna belt like that, but what the hell is a Makua?
> 
> Is it just me, or does this sly dog look pleased with himself?
> ...



looks like he's about to ask us all if he could buy us a drink.:erg:

makua means "parent"


Jaz K.


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## KenpoDave (Jan 28, 2003)

For a one year video course?  Heck, for that price, I will personally train you for a year or two.

Tell you what, make it $5000 even, and I will pay for you to train with the instructor of your choice.  Don't tell him what you paid me, though...


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 28, 2003)

In our ground grappling classes a belt that long just begs to used to tie the wearee up


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

I find it funny that everyone here laughs at this guy. _(Not that he does or doesn't deserve it, I dunno)_ But I seem to be able to run out fingers counting, and I can't count that high, when I try to count how many Kenpo courses out there are like this. Then you wonder why no one takes your art seriously and you are always having to defend it. It's like laughing at your retarded cousin but never bothering to help him or do anything about it but meanwhile, everyone driving by the family picnic is only seeing your cousin flap his arms and run around and thinks that's what your family is like.

That's what I find funny.
:rofl:


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## Kirk (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Then you wonder why no one takes your art seriously and you are always having to defend it.*



I don't have to defend it.  I study it for me, and for me only.  I
could give a damn what others think.


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## WilliamTLear (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I find it funny that everyone here laughs at this guy. (Not that he does or doesn't deserve it, I dunno) But I seem to be able to run out fingers counting, and I can't count that high, when I try to count how many Kenpo courses out there are like this. Then you wonder why no one takes your art seriously and you are always having to defend it. It's like laughing at your retarded cousin but never bothering to help him or do anything about it but meanwhile, everyone driving by the family picnic is only seeing your cousin flap his arms and run around and thinks that's what your family is like.
> 
> That's what I find funny.
> :rofl: *



10 Questions for Gou Ronin:

#1. Steve Spry isn't a retard... but the people that are willing to pay him... ?

#2. Don't you have a certificate from him somewhere in your house Gou?

#3. You're right, there are many with video schemes just like his. Makes you wonder... Is this disease is contageous?

#4. How couldn't you laugh?

#5. I take my training in Kenpo seriously. Evidently so does Master Spry... Jeeze, next year he'll be the pope, and the year after that... GOD?

#6. How should we save Master Steve Spry from himself? Buy him a bigger mirror?

#7. Steve Spry does flap his arms around in pretty much the same manner you described above... He's trying to sell it as Kenpo on his videos. Slap one of those videos back in your VCR Gou, what do you think?

#8. I know you own at least one copy of Black Belt Magazine... There are hundreds of self-promoted martial arts masters selling video courses in it. Why pick on Kenpo exclusively? Are you bitter? Did Steve Spry screw you out of some money? Or are you a loyal follower of Makua Steve "The Super Guy" Spry?

#9. Did you read all of the books on his highly recomended reading list? Did Curious George shock you with it's dramatic, intense, and ironic ending?

#10. When are you gunna come out with a Kenpo Video? What are you gunna call it? The Kenpo Secrets that Makua Steve Spry didn't want you to know? Did he put secret information on your videos that nobody else has seen?


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## D.Cobb (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *It's a guy who puts on a gi and a belt and using subterfuge and schemy, glitzy websites, goes after your wallet! :lol:
> 
> Dan *



AHH! Now I get it.....


:rofl:


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## D.Cobb (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sammy3170 _
> *Maybe he's a mormon!!
> 
> Cheers
> Sammy *



Too many m's in your version of the word my friend!


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## D.Cobb (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Is it just me, or does this sly dog look pleased with himself?
> *




He looks like that guy that played the colonel (sp?), in Pensicola Wings of Gold.

You know the guy that married Barbera Streisand...

If you knew you were gonna make a bucket load of $$$ for nearly nothing wouldn't you  look pretty pleased with yourself???


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## Sigung86 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Too many m's in your version of the word my friend!
> 
> *



I don't know D ... You could be a little preemptive... He might be a mormon and a moron. :lol:

Dan


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## D.Cobb (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *I don't know D ... You could be a little preemptive... He might be a mormon and a moron. :lol:
> 
> Dan *



Preemptive.....

OMG I hope this doesn't turn into something like the pants thread in the humor forum.

--Dave:rofl:


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## Cthulhu (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I wanna belt like that, but what the hell is a Makua?
> *



Wasn't he the evil Native American character in _Last of the Mohicans_?

Oh wait, that was Ma*g*ua! 

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I don't have to defend it.  I study it for me, and for me only.  I
> could give a damn what others think. *



Oh puh-leeze...the wind blows wrong and you're worried that you might not be getting what everyone else is getting out of your Kenpo.
:rofl:


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## Brother John (Jan 29, 2003)

I think it's 2X sad:
sad if he deludes others with empty promises of proficiency
sad if he is so deluded himself as to think that he's not outright lyling to his 'buyers'!!
Just sad  
:wah: 
Your Brother (pass the tissues)
John


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## brianhunter (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Oh puh-leeze...the wind blows wrong and you're worried that you might not be getting what everyone else is getting out of your Kenpo.
> :rofl: *



Why are you so hard on Kirk man?? Hes opinionated and sometimes wrong in these opinions, but these are things others take pride in without a word being said edgewise.

Kenpo had enough for you to stay around untill brown belt, I don't know the whys or whos or why you quite but I have always respected your opinions. I would love to hear about it sometime.

Why judge everybody by what you feel is wrong in their art? We all have something to learn from each other everyone of us! There are several ways to answer the same question. The sooner most of us realize that the better off we will all be as martial artist. We should all help each other out, just starting the martial arts means we all have something in common.

You have a lot to offer man.........why be a sith lord when the jedi came from all sorts of planets  hell mace windu had a purple light saber and none of the other jedis laughed at him!

:jedi1: :xwing: :jediduel:


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #1. Steve Spry isn't a retard... but the people that are willing to pay him... ?*



How do they know? People who are just starting Kenpo don't know good Kenpo from bad. It's when they find out and they don't look for better instruction that you can call them retards.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #2. Don't you have a certificate from him somewhere in your house Gou?*



Yep. Sure do. When I first started Kenpo I was with an affiliated school. It's not a secret. Doesn't mean I support the guy or what he is doing. I would not choose to learn from him. I have never taken instruction from him. Does having this certificate invalidate any Kenpo I know? Wow. I have a certificate from the IKKO too. And the WKKA, the AKI, and a host of other Kenpo groups. I'm not ashamed to say where and with whom I have associated with or studied with.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #3. You're right, there are many with video schemes just like his. Makes you wonder... Is this disease is contageous?*



Yes. It's running rampant throughout Kenpo.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #4. How couldn't you laugh?*



I *am* laughing. For different reasons though. I proved Spry is a scam artist and I told you how. Yet he still makes big bucks and rides Kenpo's rep into the ground. He's not alone. I will say that he at least introduces people to Kenpo. That's not a bad thing. Just that some people are stupid and never search out better instruction once they have a chance and some people are happy with what they get.

I'm also laughing because Kenpoists are pointing fingers and laughing at this guy yet _he's one of yours._



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #5. I take my training in Kenpo seriously. Evidently so does Master Spry... Jeeze, next year he'll be the pope, and the year after that... GOD?*



How can anyone take Kenpo seriously? I can send a tape or even less and get rank in it by next week that outranks most people.

You take your Kenpo seriously. The problem is that Kenpo doesn't take rank seriously.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #6. How should we save Master Steve Spry from himself? Buy him a bigger mirror?*



I dunno. I have only spoke to the guy a few times on some serious issues other than Kenpo mostly.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #7. Steve Spry does flap his arms around in pretty much the same manner you described above... He's trying to sell it as Kenpo on his videos. Slap one of those videos back in your VCR Gou, what do you think?*



I think he makes Kenpo look like a slap/slop art. It's not. But heck, with a few bucks you can be high ranking Kenpoist and argue whatever you want by throwing around Kenpo terms and make people think you know what you're doing. Then you start selling stuff and raking in the bucks.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #8. I know you own at least one copy of Black Belt Magazine... There are hundreds of self-promoted martial arts masters selling video courses in it. Why pick on Kenpo exclusively? Are you bitter? Did Steve Spry screw you out of some money? Or are you a loyal follower of Makua Steve "The Super Guy" Spry?*



I own a whole bunch of copies of the rag. I like it. It's a good indicator of what the martial arts world is about. Kinda like when the guys in the movie _"Men In Black"_ read the tabloids to see what is really going on.

Yes I am bitter. Not at Spry though. He was up front about what he offered and always fufilled his business obligations. Unlike many other more legit Kenpoists who will screw you. I'm not a follow of Spry or any other Kenpo organization.

Why Kenpo? Well, mostly because I have experience with Kenpo. I also pick on TKD too but they never %$#@ed me over either. I just do that based on personal experience with TKD people. Although I have met a bunch of good TKD people here. EPAK is fast becoming the new TKD. The TKD lament the state their art is in because of they way it spread. Kenpo will be the same. There will be pockets of good Kenpo but it will get fewer and farther inbetween. Yet everyone will claim theirs isn't the bad stuff.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #9. Did you read all of the books on his highly recomended reading list? Did Curious George shock you with it's dramatic, intense, and ironic ending?*



Damn you! That monkey had it coming! Damn these happy hollywood endings!



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *10 Questions for Gou Ronin:
> #10. When are you gunna come out with a Kenpo Video? What are you gunna call it? The Kenpo Secrets that Makua Steve Spry didn't want you to know? Did he put secret information on your videos that nobody else has seen?*



I doubt it. I have some Spry videos. I have Planas videos. I have lots of videos. Doesn't mean I'll be putting out videos and trying to rip people off claiming I have the real secrets. That's not for me to do. That's for other Kenpoists to do.

I have had it up to my eyes with Kenpo politics. They're a joke and it makes a good art look bad and get bad.


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Why are you so hard on Kirk man?? Hes opinionated and sometimes wrong in these opinions, but these are things others take pride in without a word being said edgewise.*



Kirk and I have talked about this. I am not saying anything that he and I have not said in chats to each other. 



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Kenpo had enough for you to stay around untill brown belt, I don't know the whys or whos or why you quite but I have always respected your opinions. I would love to hear about it sometime.
> *



Hey, 10 minutes ago you were quitting Kenpo.

As a brown when I outclass black belts and am given that rank for doing nothing but showing what I did on the floor that to me means black had no meaning so I don't wear it. I have had people offer to still rank me to black in their system. Blah blah blah... if I want to wear black I can, I've got certs, and still be better than 50% of the stuff out there. I'm not saying I am the greatest. I am saying that a lot of Kenpo schools out there suck.

I like Kenpo. I hate the way it's being run. My perogative. I left for reasons that were obvious. I still work Kenpo techniques. I work them into other ideas and use them as a basis to study ideas. Am I looking for rank? Nope?



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Why judge everybody by what you feel is wrong in their art? We all have something to learn from each other everyone of us! There are several ways to answer the same question. The sooner most of us realize that the better off we will all be as martial artist. We should all help each other out, just starting the martial arts means we all have something in common.*



Whoah... I'm not the one making fun of a fellow Kenpoists here. In fact, as disgusting as it sounds I am sticking up for Spry solely because he's a product of the Kenpo world. (Not one of the worst but not great either) I guess only Kenpoists eat their own eh? In fact I'm not the one attacking other artists in this thread. I'm just pointing out that it's the same people making fun of this guy who don't realize he's representing their art.

Love to chat more if you want on this.


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *You have a lot to offer man.........why be a sith lord when the jedi came from all sorts of planets  hell mace windu had a purple light saber and none of the other jedis laughed at him!*



Sorry. I forgot to answer this.

What's wrong with being a Sith Lord?

Without a bad guy... there can be no good guys...


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## brianhunter (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> Hey, 10 minutes ago you were quitting Kenpo.
> 
> Love to chat more if you want on this. *



Yeah, I know.....it was hard to walk away from and some pretty good people gave some brutally honest things to consider...needless to say Im not quitting, Kenpo has saved my @$$ on the street several times, I think I'll stick around for the right reasons.........

Ill send you a message on AIM or something if I see you on sometime.....I would love to chat with you more off of here man.


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Yeah, I know.....it was hard to walk away from and some pretty good people gave some brutally honest things to consider...needless to say Im not quitting, Kenpo has saved my @$$ on the street several times, I think I'll stick around for the right reasons.........*



I've used Kenpo to haul my @ss out of the fire too. It's not a bad art.

You live close to Tom Kelley right? Whatever he calls his art I'd study from that guy if I had the chance in a heartbeat. Hard to walk away from a guy like him and what he offers.



> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *Ill send you a message on AIM or something if I see you on sometime.....I would love to chat with you more off of here man. *



My e-mail and AIM are valid. If you want to use them that's what they are there for and I always respond.


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## Sigung86 (Jan 29, 2003)

Doug,

You are a bright, brash young man, but often you assume too much.

Steve Spry is just a symptom of the West Coast Glitzy Martial Arts method.  If he's not, it's still ok with me... I've never given out a cert or made false promises to anyone.

Interesting that you cover Kenpo in one glittering generality.  I can think of one time when someone tried to assist you. It wasn't the way You wanted, and how you wanted, so you refused the assist.

Not everyone in the field of Kenpo is bad...

I wonder how you will be when the Grand Masters of Russian Martial Arts start blossoming?

And before you 'splode all over me... You know that I've never come down on you in a splatter of emotion.  I just believe that you could simply sit back and look at the fact that you might have as much involvement in you being where you are, as everybody else out here.

And I really don't expect you to come back hitting at me... I'm not perfect... I know that ... But you are kind of getting to the point where you are blindly slapping at people who fit under a general heading ... Kenpoists, and a lot of those people are really worthy to be what they claim and do what they do.

Dan


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## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Doug,
> You are a bright, brash young man,*



I gotta be me.
 



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *but often you assume too much.*



Sometimes. Sometime I just see too much. 



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Steve Spry is just a symptom of the West Coast Glitzy Martial Arts method.  If he's not, it's still ok with me... I've never given out a cert or made false promises to anyone.*



I don't think you would Dan. You're one of the good things about Kenpo that I like.

But it's not just the west coast. It's all over. ALL over.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Interesting that you cover Kenpo in one glittering generality.  I can think of one time when someone tried to assist you. It wasn't the way You wanted, and how you wanted, so you refused the assist.*



Well Dan, I have issues with that too and we don't agree on what went down but I was there and you were not.

I agree. I have in my mind what I want and how I want it and I will only bend so far in compromising myself. Sometimes I pay a price. I sleep well at night though.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Not everyone in the field of Kenpo is bad...*



I agree. But you know what? They outnumber the good guys.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *I wonder how you will be when the Grand Masters of Russian Martial Arts start blossoming?*



Dunno. I won't be one adding to the problem though. There is no rank anyway. You either can do it or you can't. People follow the guys who do it. Not the guys with stripes. The same worked at my boxing club. 



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *And before you 'splode all over me... You know that I've never come down on you in a splatter of emotion.  I just believe that you could simply sit back and look at the fact that you might have as much involvement in you being where you are, as everybody else out here.*



Dan, only diamond cuts diamond. I appreciate your view and I like them. I might not agree but I like them.

I am totally responsible for who I am and where I am. I accept that. But it isn't my fault Kenpo is where it is. How I got here doesn't change the fact of what is happening.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *And I really don't expect you to come back hitting at me... I'm not perfect... I know that ... But you are kind of getting to the point where you are blindly slapping at people who fit under a general heading ... Kenpoists, and a lot of those people are really worthy to be what they claim and do what they do.*



Then they ought to stand up and clean out their closet.

Cheers!


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## Sigung86 (Jan 29, 2003)

Doug ....

Thank you for the kind words... They don't come around on forums all that often.

One last series of thought here.

You keep saying "they".  You have never said "We"...  A very worn, tired, old trusim comes to mind.  If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.

We, all of us, let the art get in the state it is in.  Some of us have not turned our back on the art.

Kenpo will always be what it is.  Generations come and generations go... Some add to it, some detract from it, but it is always there.

Kenpo, like anything else, is not what anyone else makes it... It is only what you make it.  And what it is, or is not, is all in your perception.  I mean, really ... We don't look down on Canada because of Lorne Greene or Terence and Philip!!!  :lol:

Take care little Brother,

Dan


----------



## John Bishop (Jan 29, 2003)

Video training and ranking, mail order black belts, inflated ranks, gratutious titles, self promotion, made up styles, riduculous claims of physical or mental abilities.  
These things happen all over the world, even China, Japan, Korea, and the rest of the places where you'd think the martial arts would be pure.  
And they certainly are not limited to Kenpo.  In fact they occur in most martial arts. 
It all started when someone figured out you could make money in the martial arts.


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jan 29, 2003)

While I don't much care for the generalizations, Gou's got a pretty good point: it's easy to laugh at Steve Spry, because it makes us feel secure that we're so very, very different. 

The same thing seems to happen on a lot of the forums and magazines I've looked at: the really obvious nutcakes, fakes, charlatans and slimeballs are objects of fascination partly because they offer alibis. Everybody can criticize what sucks in their martial arts practice (pretense and swaggering, for example), or kenpo (endless self-promotion by some), or Mr. Parker's actions (promoting Elvis to what was it? seventh? eighth? giving that fat thug Augusto Pinochet a black belt), without having to risk anything, because these problems only appear in somebody else. 

Guys like Steve Spry, I think, are a symptom of what's wrong with the martial arts. John Bishop also has a point about the fact that this stuff pretty much always was wrong, but I also think it's a problem with the modern world and America in particular--land of the fee, don't you know.  I mean, I train out here in California, and in a very funny book of fantasy Robert W. Smith remarked that, "California is to real martial arts as garlic is to vampires."

I don't know how you solve the problem. I'm pretty sure that it's inevitable, in capitalist societies, but a) capitalism isn't going anywhere any time soon, and b) feudal societies foster their own types of corruption. In many ways, the crappy politics and behaviour that's sometimes all too visible in American kenpo can be broken down into either a) celebrations of money-making, b) fantasies of return to some mythical, past happyland.

Sometimes, I read and hear calls for unity in kenpo, which supposedly would solve all these problems. Oh, hell no. I've met about the best people I've ever met in the art---and I've also met about the biggest collection of self-promoting fakes, fatheads, punks, bullies, fools, slobs, boneheads, and insecure power junkies I've ever seen. (Outside of colleges and universities, which is where I work,  that is.) And it has been my general experience that it is not always the nice guys and gals who end up in charge of committees, governing bodies, etc. With a lot of startling exceptions (I just met some more exceptions, among the administrators who're working for Frank Trejo's upcoming tournament in Long Beach) it's the Steve Sprys of the world. 
It does seem possible to make a living, establish a reputation, get students taught decently, and avoid being a total--well, you fill in the blank. My own head-of school (Larry Tatum) manages pretty well, as far as I've been able to see over the last ten years or so. 

But it's a good point. All the easier to laugh at the guys who exemplify our own worst characteristics. That way, we don't have to look at what we're up to.


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Doug ....
> Thank you for the kind words... They don't come around on forums all that often.*



You're not gonna hug me now are ya? Not in front of the guys...please Dad...not in front of the guys...
:rofl: 



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *One last series of thought here.
> You keep saying "they".  You have never said "We"...  A very worn, tired, old trusim comes to mind.  If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.*



I agree. I don't have a solution and I am complaining a lot. I just cannot find an answer.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *We, all of us, let the art get in the state it is in.  Some of us have not turned our back on the art.*



I don't know what to say to that. I have a hard time holding onto the anchor as the ship goes down.

Just my 2 cents.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Kenpo will always be what it is.  Generations come and generations go... Some add to it, some detract from it, but it is always there.*



I agree. It has it's ups and down I guess.



> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Kenpo, like anything else, is not what anyone else makes it... It is only what you make it.  And what it is, or is not, is all in your perception.  I mean, really ... We don't look down on Canada because of Lorne Greene or Terence and Philip!!!  :lol:*



That's because you guys NEED culture.




> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Take care little Brother,
> Dan *



U2.


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

What an excellent post Robert. I bow to your ability to have written it. Kudos.


----------



## Sigung86 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *What an excellent post Robert. I bow to your ability to have written it. Kudos. *



I agree to a greater or lesser extent!

Well Hells Bells Robert!  I couldn't agree with you 100% People would begin to think we're gonna be friends someday! 
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


----------



## rmcrobertson (Jan 29, 2003)

Aw shucks. You guys....I just wanna thank the members of the Academy, and all the little people....


----------



## Kirk (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Oh puh-leeze...the wind blows wrong and you're worried that you might not be getting what everyone else is getting out of your Kenpo. *





> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Kirk and I have talked about this. I am not saying anything that he and I have not said in chats to each other.
> *



Yeah, because of nay sayers such as yourself saying that so many
aren't teaching "real" or "proper" kenpo.  How would a beginner
know, unless he asks.  You sure seem to misinterpret what I
talk about in our chats, and then publicly post that info, often.
So noted!


----------



## WilliamTLear (Jan 29, 2003)

First let me say that I also agree with Robertson's comments above. (Now, I'm not trying to get all mushy. Just staing a fact.)



> Origionally Posted By Dan Farmer:
> 
> Steve Spry is just a symptom of the West Coast Glitzy Martial Arts method. If he's not, it's still ok with me... I've never given out a cert or made false promises to anyone.



#1. Are you implying that Ed Parker's American Kenpo System (having evolved in California) is the West Coast Glitzy Martial Art Method?

OR

#2. Are you implying that the Sex, Lies, and Video Tape Method to gaining rank in Kenpo is indigineous to the West Coast?

If #2 is a fair understanding of your comment, Half the guys that do this crap live on the east coast too... Jeeze, look out the window brother. It's a damn plague! :rofl:


----------



## Kirk (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Half the guys that do this crap live on the east coast too... Jeeze, look out the window brother. It's a damn plague! :rofl: *



Hey Uncle Dan, aren't you glad we're the sane ones out in the
midwest?


----------



## Chu-Chulain (Jan 29, 2003)

Two observations:

1. In US, especially west coast (?) its Martial Business, not Martial Arts.

2. Where and how do all these people earn these ultra high ranks??? IMHO anything over 6th degree should be bordering on sancitification and 10th should certainly be close to God and should be chosen on par with choosing the pope!


----------



## Sigung86 (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chu-Chulain _
> *Two observations:
> 
> 1. In US, especially west coast (?) its Martial Business, not Martial Arts.
> ...



Who the Heck are  you, tryin' ta make sense and all????
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Aw shucks. You guys....I just wanna thank the members of the Academy, and all the little people.... *


Don't make fun of dwarves. They have feelings too.


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Yeah, because of nay sayers such as yourself saying that so many
> aren't teaching "real" or "proper" kenpo.  How would a beginner
> know, unless he asks.  You sure seem to misinterpret what I
> ...



1) I have NEVER EVER told you anything regarding who is teaching and who is not teaching REAL or PROPER Kenpo. In fact I don't think you will ever find me saying that. Anywhere. You're misinterpreting.

2) Unless we've spoken about keeping things to ourselves I have never said anything to you that I woul dnot repeat in public.

...noted...
:shrug:


----------



## Kirk (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *1) I have NEVER EVER told you anything regarding who is teaching and who is not teaching REAL or PROPER Kenpo. In fact I don't think you will ever find me saying that. Anywhere. You're misinterpreting.
> 
> 2) Unless we've spoken about keeping things to ourselves I have never said anything to you that I would not repeat in public.
> ...



Yes, you have, and you're an ***.  I won't name names, that's
more YOUR style, but no one believes you're the bad *** you
claim to be.  Many who've seen you in action.  Stick it where the
sun don't shine.


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Who the Heck are  you, tryin' ta make sense and all????
> :lol: :lol: :lol:
> Dan *



There will be no bursts of sanity during the discussion please...


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Yes, you have, and you're an ***.  I won't name names, that's
> more YOUR style, but no one believes you're the bad *** you
> claim to be.  Many who've seen you in action.  Stick it where the
> sun don't shine. *



No I have not. You may think I have but you're a lot like me in that you just want to hear what you want to hear.

Never said I was a bad @ss. But if u don't want to name names then you're just pissing in the wind.

Call me when your temper tantrum wears off.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2003)

Guys, play nice or take it to PM please.

Thank you.
:asian:


----------



## WilliamTLear (Jan 30, 2003)

> Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> I'm also laughing because Kenpoists are pointing fingers and laughing at this guy yet he's one of yours.



That's funny, because he's not one of mine. LOL! I can laugh at him, just like I can laugh at any other human being. Hell, you're probably going to tell me that it's not right to laugh at monkeys throwing poo in the zoo, because they have opposable thumbs just like you. :shrug: 



> Originally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> I am laughing. For different reasons though. I proved Spry is a scam artist and I told you how.





> Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> Yes I am bitter. Not at Spry though. He was up front about what he offered and always fufilled his business obligations.



Wow, that says alot. The Guy is a scam artist, and he made good on his promises at the same time. How could you call him a scam artist then?  



> Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> How can anyone take Kenpo seriously? I can send a tape or even less and get rank in it by next week that outranks most people.



I would venture to say that it depends on who you are, and who you train with. There are many Kenpo Associations that have good standards. The few that offer video testing don't set the bar for the rest of us. :asian: 



> Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> You take your Kenpo seriously. The problem is that Kenpo doesn't take rank seriously.



I know that I take Kenpo seriously (thanks)... But weather or not I am taken seriously as a brown belt is really relative to the associations I am affiliated with, not the community at large. Different associations have different criteria for rank. (Some like money, others want hard work, I think you have a good idea as to who I cruise with.)  



> Origionally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> I have had it up to my eyes with Kenpo politics. They're a joke and it makes a good art look bad and get bad.



I've had it with the politcal crap too, but the System itself is a good system regardless of weather or not someone whom practices it (in anyway shape or form that they do) is a turd.  

Hell, I don't like George Bush... but does that mean I hate all Americans for *his* short comings? Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree with people and move on.  

Hopefully someone out there in Kenpo Land will straighten things out. Maybe it will take some deaths within the ranks of the current seniors before most of us can come together again (unfortunate, because it would be nice for change to happen with those who are with us today).  

Sincerely,
Billy


----------



## brianhunter (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *
> 
> I know that I take Kenpo seriously (thanks)... But weather or not I am taken seriously as a brown belt is really relative to the associations I am affiliated with, not the community at large. Different associations have different criteria for rank. (Some like money, others want hard work, I think you have a good idea as to who I cruise with.)
> ...




Good points Mr Lear.....are you the one in the prophecy who will bring balance to the force?!?!?  Somebody needs too LOL 

I have talked to a few buddies in other arts. We arent the only art with problems, not by a long shot! People argue lineage, history, who is who, and who can't go where.
The stories I have heard make Kenpo ones seem like Dr Sues to be honest. We have a lot of infighting but hey it means people are passionate about our art. 
I dont have the answers but I definately don not think we are the worst of the martial arts politics and fighting!
We in kenpo do all share one thing...a damned good effective art even in its various versions and lineage!


----------



## Goldendragon7 (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _*
> We in kenpo do all share one thing...a damned good effective art even in its various versions and lineage!
> *



HERE ....... HERE....

Now that makes sense.

:asian:


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *That's funny, because he's not one of mine. LOL! I can laugh at him, just like I can laugh at any other human being. Hell, you're probably going to tell me that it's not right to laugh at monkeys throwing poo in the zoo, because they have opposable thumbs just like you. :shrug: *



Monkeys don't claim to represent the human race...although sometimes they do a better job. There is a difference and the huge jump in the two you made doesn't connect.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Wow, that says alot. The Guy is a scam artist, and he made good on his promises at the same time. How could you call him a scam artist then?  *



It does say a lot. When a guy who is openly catting for money is more reliable than most associations when it comes to business. 



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I would venture to say that it depends on who you are, and who you train with. There are many Kenpo Associations that have good standards. The few that offer video testing don't set the bar for the rest of us. :asian: *



And I would say that it is the other way around and that the few good associations out there do not set the bar for the many bad ones.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I've had it with the politcal crap too, but the System itself is a good system regardless of weather or not someone whom practices it (in anyway shape or form that they do) is a turd.
> *



I have never said that Kenpo is a bad system. Ever. That is something that people have tried to make it seem like I said because they have weak pathetic arguments and try to set me up like a straw man they hope to knock down because they have nothing else to rely on.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Hell, I don't like George Bush... but does that mean I hate all Americans for his short comings? Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree with people and move on.
> *



Uh huh. I jut wanted to point out that it seems only sharks and Kenpoists eat their own. The only difference is that Kenpoists do it behind their backs. Although not all of them do.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *Hopefully someone out there in Kenpo Land will straighten things out. Maybe it will take some deaths within the ranks of the current seniors before most of us can come together again (unfortunate, because it would be nice for change to happen with those who are with us today).  *



I don't want to see anyone die. Well, maybe my ex-girlfriend..._(dreaming off into space)_ I'd love for someone to pull it all together but how can someone expect it to happen when the people running the show are setting the example they do? Of course people who follow them will be the same.


----------



## WilliamTLear (Jan 30, 2003)

The analogy of the monkey was put there to illustrate just exactly how close I feel to Steve Spry and his super guy material. I don't like him, and can do nothing about him and his video training program. In other words, he is responsible for what he does, and Kenpo isn't.

You're expereince in Kenpo is predicated by the fact that you live in Canada. I know that it must be hard to find descent instruction up there (or an instructor that *YOU* can get along with), but what do you expect when you join these various associations. Do you honestly think anyone wants to finance sending an instructor to Canada just for you? Come on.  



> Originally Posted By Gou Ronin:
> 
> And I would say that it is the other way around and that the few good associations out there do not set the bar for the many bad ones.



I think you're trying to assign blame for your bad expereinces. Why stop with the people that screwed you? That would be pretty close to admitting personal guilt. You got taken the first time (not your fault), and then subjected yourself to the rest of your bad expereinces with other associations (looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me). But, why stop with the bad guys... Your super hero that is nesting within one of the good associations hasn't bothered to save you yet... *THAT'S IT!!! IT'S HIS FAULT!!!*  

EVEN BETTER... IT'S TAE KWON DO'S FAULT!!! THEY ARE, INFACT, THE POOR EXAMPLE THAT KENPO IS FOLLOWING INTO THE GUTTER, AREN'T THEY?  

In closing... You're not a bad guy Doug. You and I, in a very odd way, have alot in common. The difference between us is simple, I blame the guy who screwed me in the first place, you hold the whole damn world responsible. Let's move on, please?


----------



## Seig (Jan 31, 2003)

a lot of charlatans, frauds and downright idiots out there.  But let me ask you one question, did you learn anything kenpo-wise that was valuable from your various assosciations?


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *The analogy of the monkey was put there to illustrate just exactly how close I feel to Steve Spry and his super guy material. I don't like him, and can do nothing about him and his video training program. In other words, he is responsible for what he does, and Kenpo isn't.*



I never said that you could do anything about it. I was merely pointing out that everyone is pointing at this guy and laughing but that he's an indicator of the things wrong with the politics of the art. That's like pointing to the hole in a boat and laughing at it as the boat goes down. That's when everyone started screaming that their Kenpo was pure and that everyone else was the problem in the art today.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *You're expereince in Kenpo is predicated by the fact that you live in Canada. I know that it must be hard to find descent instruction up there (or an instructor that YOU can get along with), but what do you expect when you join these various associations. Do you honestly think anyone wants to finance sending an instructor to Canada just for you? Come on.
> *



Nope. Not at all. Again, this arguement assumes that no good Kenpo exists anywhere other than in SoCal. (Even though this guy is in the heart of Kenpoland) It has nothing to do with being in Canada or anywhere but that there are greedy people everywhere in Kenpo who will sell you rank in kenpo.

I do not expect to have some guy finance my training. When I join a group I do expect support which is what that orgainization should provide. I do not expect it to be finanical support and I do expect to support that group in return.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *I think you're trying to assign blame for your bad expereinces. Why stop with the people that screwed you? That would be pretty close to admitting personal guilt. You got taken the first time (not your fault), and then subjected yourself to the rest of your bad expereinces with other associations (looks like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me). But, why stop with the bad guys... Your super hero that is nesting within one of the good associations hasn't bothered to save you yet... THAT'S IT!!! IT'S HIS FAULT!!!  *



I think you're wrong and trying to set up an argument that has no basis in fact. What a ******** Kenpo cult answer. _"It's not our fault. It must be your fault."_ The last lament of the Kenpo culture when they know they're wrong. Please go look up the concept of the strawman argument. 

I admit that whatever part I played in the issue I accept my own actions and the consequences. I'm just not the average guy who is willing to get screwed.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *EVEN BETTER... IT'S TAE KWON DO'S FAULT!!! THEY ARE, INFACT, THE POOR EXAMPLE THAT KENPO IS FOLLOWING INTO THE GUTTER, AREN'T THEY?  *



Again, cheap attempts to make me feel totally responsible for the politics in Kenpo won't work.



> _Originally posted by WilliamTLear _
> *In closing... You're not a bad guy Doug. You and I, in a very odd way, have alot in common. The difference between us is simple, I blame the guy who screwed me in the first place, you hold the whole damn world responsible. Let's move on, please?  *



I don't think you're a bad guy either Billy. But you just can't accept that there is something wrong with the politics of your art.

Let's move on shall we?


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *a lot of charlatans, frauds and downright idiots out there.  But let me ask you one question, did you learn anything kenpo-wise that was valuable from your various assosciations? *



Yes I did. I never let the lesson go to waste and I never forgot what I learned from any of the experiences, both in the way of the art and in the politics. No matter what, I learned something from all of it. I never said it was a waste of time. There was always SOMETHING valuable to take out of it all.
 

Strange. I never had these problems when I did Judo. Or Boxing, or Systema, or BJJ. Not when I dabbled in Arnis, Pekiti Tersia, or JKD. It was only when I got involved with EPAK.

I guess Billy is right. It MUST be me.

...or not.


----------



## Sigung86 (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> ...
> I guess Billy is right. It MUST be me.
> ...



Nah Doug ... It's YOU! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dan


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure I'm not that important. However, since in an essay regarding the rank structure by Larry Tatum he describes the 10th degree as a rank that affects the whole course of Kenpo I must therefore conclude that I am possibly one of the grandmasters of the art since I hold sway over everything.

I am not confortable with this since I do not yet have any training videos or certificates to sell for a few grand. 

...not to say that they are not in the making...


----------



## Sigung86 (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *...
> 
> since I hold sway over everything.
> ...



You gotta quit that swaying Gou, People are starting to talk!!!
:rofl: 

Dan


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *You gotta quit that swaying Gou, People are starting to talk!!! *



They always talk about us Grandmasters.

Listen, Dan, if you're going to hang around me you're going to have to learn to grovel and bow a lot more ok?

Thanx.


----------



## jeffkyle (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *They always talk about us Grandmasters.
> 
> Listen, Dan, if you're going to hang around me you're going to have to learn to grovel and bow a lot more ok?
> ...



Got a ring to it!  
Hurry up and get the videos out!


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

I might just give you another stripe or two for that belt if you flatter me enough.


----------



## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> Strange. I never had these problems when I did Judo. Or Boxing, or Systema, or BJJ. Not when I dabbled in Arnis, Pekiti Tersia, or JKD. It was only when I got involved with EPAK.
> *



Yeah, there's not politics whatsoever in BOXING ... why
that's gotta be the one most free from corruption and greed!

It took me one single solitary phone call to get the politics in 
Pekiti Tersia.  Since you're so fond of names, because they're
the only thing that give validity to arguments (except yours,
because you never mention any, but still insist it's fact), I give
you Gabriel Martinez, of the Pekiti Tirsia PitBulls 
who wouldn't teach me, or anyone else the art unless they were
solely affiliated with his school and org.  He went into a half hour
rant about how PKI is a bogus organization, and strayed away
from the "true" path of P.K.  He said if it's not paying dues to
"GRAND TUHON Leo Tortal Gaje, Jr.", then it's not real P.K.

Saying the politicing and backstabbing doesn't go on in JKD is
just gullibility, deniability, or stupidity.  

Systema and BJJ are still the new kids on the block.  You can't 
even rightfully use these in your arguments, until the almightly
Helio dies, and the same for Vlad.  Then just watch.  I'll have my
b.b. videos and certs, no prob.


----------



## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

I think I stated that *"I"* had no problem. I never said there were no problems. Billy said that the problems I encountered in Kenpo were only me. I countered saying that in any other system I have been working in I have not had any problems and enjoyed working.

I know you want so bad to have this prove that there are problems in every system but that isn't what we're arguing about. I agree that there are problems in every system. But we're talking Kenpo. Not shotokan or anything else. Kenpo.

The attempt to say, _"Well other systems have problems too."_ to deflect the issue at hand isn't dealing with the issue at hand. It is just an attempt to try and point fingers elsewhere to avoid the issue.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Yeah, there's not politics whatsoever in BOXING ...why that's gotta be the one most free from corruption and greed!*



Never said it wasn't.  You're just drooling at the hilt to try and prove me wrong to make yourself feel better. I said when I was working in the art, and boxing is an art, I had no problem. None to the degree I had in Kenpo.

In fact, in Boxing there are few belts. You fight to get one, you fight to keep one.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *It took me one single solitary phone call to get the politics in
> Pekiti Tersia.  Since you're so fond of names, because they're
> the only thing that give validity to arguments (except yours,
> ...



Never had any problem attending any seminars or visiting schools to train. None. Zip. Zilch. 

Again, I didn't say that other arts did not have problems. Just that I never had any dealing with them. But this must be starting to sound old.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Saying the politicing and backstabbing doesn't go on in JKD is
> just gullibility, deniability, or stupidity.*



Never said it didn't happen. Again, just that I never had any problems working with those in that art. Me. No personal problems. None. Is this getting through to you yet? You seem to have a tough time clicking into the argument. It's not about arts having issues internally. We're talking Kenpo specifically. You seem to have trouble staying with that thought.

Billy said that it must be me that has the problem because it's not Kenpo. I stated that any other art I worked in or at I have not had a problem. I never said they didn't have problems. Just that I had no problem. In Kenpo I did. Therefore it can't _just_ be my sparkling personality. Although I do take that into account.

Um, can I make that clearer?



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Systema and BJJ are still the new kids on the block.  You can't
> even rightfully use these in your arguments, until the almightly
> Helio dies, and the same for Vlad.  Then just watch.  I'll have my
> b.b. videos and certs, no prob. *



Hell, both arts have internal issues and they are no where near as new as you think.

I'm sure you can cert up now with BJJ. Except that when it comes time to prove it on the floor you'll have a tougher time than many styles of karate convincing others.

As for Systema, they don't even have certs.

Both already have videos. However, BJJ has few belts and systema has none at all. 

But please, if you want to try and take this thread in another direction then do so. But we're talking about EPAK. It's far too easy to point at other arts and be like a 3rd grader and say, _"Well they have troubles too!"_ to get out of discussing an issue.

Also, I am not the guy not naming names when asked. That bubbles...would be you. I'm not saying, _"I know something about you that I heard from some one."_

That's ok. You're pissed off at me and you feel the need to hurt me to make yourself feel better even if it has nothing to do with the argument at hand. Doesn't bother me. I understand.

So, to summerize. I said, _"It's not just me that has the problem. I have had no problem working in other arts."_ The topic at hand was EPAK politics. 

Sorry to steal your thunder.


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

You feel like a man now?  All posts are free for everyone to read,
and you get to trash kenpo constantly, and imply, however you
see fit that kenpo is so terrible, and these other arts aren't.  So
I replied, so that others that might only be reading don't buy into
your b.s. and blaming of others.

You're the one that asked for names when I "found out something
about you".  So I provided them.  And it was more like discovery.
You like to get online and talk about how awesome you are,  and
put down kenpo with every turn.  The fact is you're a borderline
midget and are trying to use your intellect to pass yourself off as 
a bigger, badder person.

I'm not angry at you, I'm fed up with your superiority complex, 
and your dogging on everything I say.  I'll take a shot at whatever
belt ya got, Tattoo.


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## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *You feel like a man now?*



Felt like a man before.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *All posts are free for everyone to read,
> and you get to trash kenpo constantly, and imply, however you
> see fit that kenpo is so terrible, and these other arts aren't.  So
> ...



I have never ever said Kenpo was a bad art. Ever. It's a great art. I have always bashed the politics.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *You're the one that asked for names when I "found out something about you".  So I provided them.*



Yep. But it wasn't the issue at hand. You seem to have trouble staying with the issue. The names provided had nothing to do with what you started to talk about.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *And it was more like discovery.
> You like to get online and talk about how awesome you are,  and
> put down kenpo with every turn.*



Just the politics. 



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *The fact is you're a borderline
> midget and are trying to use your intellect to pass yourself off as
> a bigger, badder person.*



Uh...I'm 5'8" and a 145 pounds. Does that make you feel better? LOL! This coming from a guy who complains when people make fun of others with weight issues. Wow, I guess since you lack any real argument then you have to resort to name calling. That's kinda funny.

I never claimed I was bad ***. You did that for me. Now you're all cheesed to find out I am not who you pictured in your mind I was?



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'm not angry at you.*



Yes you are. Anyone who can read these posts can see that. You've been stooping lower and lower for insults for me.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'm fed up with your superiority complex, and your dogging on everything I say.*



I like myself. Its no crime. I am only responding to what you type. If you stayed on topic more often I wouldn't have to correct you.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'll take a shot at whatever belt ya got, Tattoo.*



You got it.
http://members.tripod.com/~russianmartialart/subclub.html
Shoot me an e-mail and let me know when you're coming Mr. Arbuckle.


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Shoot me an e-mail and let me know when you're coming Mr. Arbuckle. *



I'll let it be known here.  I'd rather not talk to you on a personal
note ever again, that's something I extend to friends, and those
who come posing as friends.  You came posing as a friend, only
you've already exposed yourself as otherwise.  Plus I want to
be sure you can free yourself up from the Lollipop Guild when I'm
there.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 31, 2003)

It might be interesting to use this thread to find out exactly why the politics of kenpo are so annoying, but I don't see much hope of that.

Still:
1) Is it inherent in martial arts?
2) Is it inherent in boys and men--you know, dick-waving.
3) Is it inherent in the modern world and the fact of money?
4) Is it a product of what Guy Debord called, "the society of the spectacle?"
5) Is it a product of a particular situation?
6) Is there something stuck in the way Mr. Parker set up American kenpo?

Of course, there's another approach. Can anybody detail real, serious consequences of the politics of kenpo? Something that ISN'T a matter of guys yelling at each other on a forum? I mean, there are countries where your unpopular opinions get you shot: there's real politics.

Maybe if I went to tournaments, I'd get into worrying over the judging. Certainly, the time's I've gone I have thought that the politics were evident in everything from all the damn sparring (too much of it), to the fishy way a lot of the forms get done and judged (politics done killed the knowledge), to the extremely iffy judging of some of the self defense stuff (best not to say). But I don't. Nor do I go to seminars, in part because I've got a full-time job, a long commute, and two days only to train at the studio and teach. So, the only time the pols heat me up is when I'm on a forum, and I read a basket of snotty little comments that immediately get denied by the twits who make them. (No, I don't have anybody in mind, and yes, I include myself.)

When I land back on earth, I don't give a hoot.

Just to be political, I will say that Gou's arguments are looking better and better to me. I'm certainly not gonna be dropping kenpo for Systema...ever...but looking back through the last few pages, I can easily see that I'd rather be on his side of the argument this time around. Among other things, he's actually reading what's written, rather than merely jumping to conclusions. 

I'll spare us all the pieties about spirit, manners, and martial arts. But I do think that good manners are nice.


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## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'll let it be known here.  I'd rather not talk to you on a personal note ever again, that's something I extend to friends, and those who come posing as friends.  You came posing as a friend, only you've already exposed yourself as otherwise.  Plus I want to be sure you can free yourself up from the Lollipop Guild when I'm there. *



Well, the guild takes up a lot of my time. You try wearing these d@mn shoes and doing that dance.

I'm not the one threatening people because they don't have the same opinions that I have and threatening violence upon them to force them to change their mind. I have no problem with someone doing what they want. I'm not making wild accusations. I am not posing as anything but myself. I have not changed since day one that you knew me. You just don't like what I have to say and you thought it was hilarious when I told others what I thought but don't like it when it's told to you.

As far as I am concerned, you've threatened my life and my ability to take care of my family. I'll be sure to take appropriate steps and respond as needed.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 31, 2003)

When you two duel it out, please tape the fight  for the rest of us.

Didn't Kirk mentioned somewhere that his school does not spar? It would be interesting to see how well that works out


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Well, the guild takes up a lot of my time. You try wearing these d@mn shoes and doing that dance.
> 
> I'm not the one threatening people because they don't have the same opinions that I have and threatening violence upon them to force them to change their mind. I have no problem with someone doing what they want. I'm not making wild accusations. I am not posing as anything but myself. I have not changed since day one that you knew me. You just don't like what I have to say and you thought it was hilarious when I told others what I thought but don't like it when it's told to you.
> ...



Oh, it's like that.  Well again, I mistook you for a man.   My intent
was a physical brawl, in a controlled setting, there were no
threats.  I don't physically attack people unwarranted, and I
certainly don't do it to someone's family that I don't even know.
But thanks for publicly implying that I do.  I'm sure you'll say that
I said that I do in a PM.

 You HAVE changed since I met you, pity you can't see that.  
there's a big difference between a good natured ribbing,
and inquiring about my training, as a friend, only to use it to 
attack me every time I turn around.  

Let me say again, I mean no unwarranted harm against Gou,
or Gou's family!


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *When you two duel it out, please tape the fight  for the rest of us.
> 
> Didn't Kirk mentioned somewhere that his school does not spar? It would be interesting to see how well that works out  *



If such a tape existed it wouldn't be a freebie!  

Not only do we not spar, I'm at about a year and a half of 
training, and Doug's done Boxing, BJJ, Systema, Kenpo, and I 
think some others for supposedly years.  I've also made it no 
secret that I'm overweight (hence the Mr Arbuckle comment).  I'm 
bigger than he is, so it'd be interesting to see how well that 
works out too, wouldn't it?

But he didn't take the comment the same way your or I did, he 
took it as me threatening his life, and that of his wife's, sister's,
brother's, father's, granny, and so on.


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## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *My intent was a physical brawl, in a controlled setting, there were no threats*



Sounds like you intend on hurting me. That would put a problem in my being able to provide for my family. If you think I'm going to stand there and let you do it you're a fool.

A controlled setting? What? You threaten me with violence because I won't agree with your opinions and you want a controlled setting. Whatever you get when you come here is of your own making.

The words _"brawl"_ and _"controlled setting"_ do not go together.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I don't physically attack people unwarranted*



Liar. You just threatened me for not agreeing with your opinions with physical violence.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I certainly don't do it to someone's family that I don't even know. *



No, but you'll attempt to take the means that support them away from them.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *But thanks for publicly implying that I do.  I'm sure you'll say that I said that I do in a PM.*



Nope. I wouldn't say that. It's not true. I never PM'ed you about any of this. I'm not implying anything. I am saying you want to physically harm me and hurt my family by doing so. You said it. I will take appropriate steps when you get here.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> * You HAVE changed since I met you, pity you can't see that.
> there's a big difference between a good natured ribbing,
> and inquiring about my training, as a friend, only to use it to
> attack me every time I turn around.*



That's the real beef here. You're mad because I pointed out that you worry about what kind of training you get. You're cheesed because you didn't think I should say that.

I don't think I have changed but I can see you becoming that type of bully that you claim you detest. I don't agree with you so you're going to beat me up. Well. I don't know what to tell you other than I know where you stand. A bully is only a bully until he's stood up to.

Whatever happens to you is of your own making.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Let me say again, I mean no unwarranted harm against Gou,
> or Gou's family! *



Lies. You just said you wanted to brawl with me. You want to harm me. Ok. I'm not going anywhere. But you aren't going to get the controlled setting you desire.


----------



## Johnathan Napalm (Jan 31, 2003)

@ Kirk
lol  He is just saying it, knowing that you are 1500 miles away from where he is.  But Guo's personal argument with so many people, is running stale. It always boiled down to the same pattern. Kind of like a rerun of old show. I just came across similar Guo stuffs in the boxing sections. Deja vu. lol

BTW, I think Bill "SuperFoot" Wallace said that when you are big enough, you really do not need to know a lot of techniques. Don't sell yourself short there!   lol


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## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *If such a tape existed it wouldn't be a freebie!  *



There won't be a tape.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Not only do we not spar.*



Oh. Now it's just sparring. I see.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'm at about a year and a half of
> training, and Doug's done Boxing, BJJ, Systema, Kenpo, and I
> think some others for supposedly years.*



Supposedly. In all truth I have never even got off the couch. Honest injun...



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I've also made it no  secret that I'm overweight (hence the Mr Arbuckle comment).*



Don't cry to me about that. You called me a midget from Fantasy Island  and from the Wizard Of Oz. The second of the two was kinda funny...
 



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I'm bigger than he is, so it'd be interesting to see how well that works out too, wouldn't it?*



Yep.



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *But he didn't take the comment the same way your or I did, he
> took it as me threatening his life, and that of his wife's, sister's,
> brother's, father's, granny, and so on. *



Do you even read?



> _Originally posted by Doug _
> *As far as I am concerned, you've threatened my life and my ability to take care of my family. I'll be sure to take appropriate steps and respond as needed. *


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Sounds like you intend on hurting me. That would put a problem in my being able to provide for my family. If you think I'm going to stand there and let you do it you're a fool.
> *



So everytime you've asked people to "randori" or "discuss it on
the mat" were you threatening someone's livelihood? 



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *A controlled setting? What? You threaten me with violence because I won't agree with your opinions and you want a controlled setting. Whatever you get when you come here is of your own making.
> *



Threatened you with violence, huh?  I asked for a shot at the
title.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Liar. You just threatened me for not agreeing with your opinions with physical violence.
> *



No, YOU are liar.  You lied each and everytime you spoke to me,
because you did it under the guise of friendship.  It wasn't that
you didn't agree with me, God knows you rarely do.  It's the way
you do it.  Friends don't do that to each other.  And I never
threatened you.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I will take appropriate steps when you get here.
> *



Well then I rescind on my ..... "threat"  



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *That's the real beef here. You're mad because I pointed out that you worry about what kind of training you get. You're cheesed because you didn't think I should say that.
> *



Again, it's the WAY you said it.  And again,  I'm not mad, I'm fed 
up, because this isn't the first time.  The first thing was you telling
me that the deaths of Canadians during WWII were ALL the fault 
of the United States.  That their blood rests on the U.S's hands.
The second was when you said that every post of mine insinuates
a desire to get a black belt earlier than what I deserve, or want
to earn.  This is the third.  Your words weren't kind any of these
times, THATS what this is all about.  As i've already said, you 
ACTED like a friend, and really wasn't.  



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I don't think I have changed but I can see you becoming that type of bully that you claim you detest. I don't agree with you so you're going to beat me up. Well. I don't know what to tell you other than I know where you stand. A bully is only a bully until he's stood up to.*



I never said I wanted to jump you unexpectedly.  You're the bully.
You're just upset now that you're getting stood up to.  It's not a
matter of agree or disagree, it's about respect, which you lack
any of.  I'm not talking kenpo respect, I'm talking plain human
respect.



> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Lies. You just said you wanted to brawl with me. You want to harm me. Ok. I'm not going anywhere. But you aren't going to get the controlled setting you desire. *



But you're so heavily trained!  We all know you "don't care about
belts and rank" but you imply levels of superiority in like 5 ranks.
I should be a quick choke out, knock out, or submission for a ......
man like you.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 31, 2003)

This thread is now locked.

Cthulhu
-MT Admin.-


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

Ya never let people just hammer it out at all.  There was no legal
trouble there, there was no name calling.  There was 2 people 
who have a problem, and they were hashing it out, civily.  Why'd
ya lock it?

I would ask this in a PM but i never got a reply before.


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## GouRonin (Jan 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *So everytime you've asked people to "randori" or "discuss it on
> the mat" were you threatening someone's livelihood? *



That is why i use those terms. Randori is specific. 



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Threatened you with violence, huh? I asked for a shot at the
> title.*



To me that means you want to drop the gloves and go. Not _"controlled sparring."_



> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *No, YOU are liar. You lied each and everytime you spoke to me,
> because you did it under the guise of friendship. It wasn't that
> you didn't agree with me, God knows you rarely do. It's the way
> ...



What the...? We're not dating. Jeezus. You sound like an ex-girlfriend Sally.

You threatened me. I accepted. You said you wanted something and I told you what to expect when you get here.

You show on up. I'll be here.

Now I'm done.
Lock it up Cthulu.


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## Kirk (Jan 31, 2003)

I NEVER said controlled sparring.  But I meant a fight.  Just an
honorable one.  You didn't accept .. you warned me you'd be
packin' heat or something.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 31, 2003)

The thread was locked due to the opinion that it was a matter best resolved off-board, and likely to turn into a more 'heated' one if left on its own. 


Please also note that the support forum is not a debate / flame / clear the air forum.

We will be merging this thread with the other locked thread later tonite.

Thank you.


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