# Taoism?



## Zepp (Jun 18, 2003)

I always hear lots of things about Taoism, but the more hear it seems, the less I know about it.  Anyone mind giving us clueless people the lowdown on Tao, or at least pointing us in the direction of a good book?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 18, 2003)

The Tao of Pooh.

and the Te of Piglet.

I'm serious.   When I was done laughing about the titles, I found them both to be very informative.  You can often find them as a set.

:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 18, 2003)

Taoism FAQ
http://www2.thetemple.com/alt.philosophy.taoism/taofaq.htm

Steve Bokenkamp's Taoism FAQ
http://www.wsu.edu/~paths/bokenkamp-faq.html

Another Taoism FAQ
http://www.geocities.com/tao4dummies/taoism_faq.html

Some good references:
http://www.anzwers.org/free/3kingdoms/tao4dummies_mirror/tao_recommendation.html


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## dearnis.com (Jun 18, 2003)

The Pooh and Piglet books are  a good resourse.
I think the best single volume is Alan Watt's "Tao, the Watercourse Way."  You wont go wrong.
Chad


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## Arthur (Jun 18, 2003)

> I always hear lots of things about Taoism, but the more hear it seems, the less I know about it.



Well after all... "the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao". 

... and of course there is always the Tao Te Ching itself. Which will likely make more sense after reading some of the books mentioned above. Of course finding a decent translation... well thats another thing 

Arthur


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## Zepp (Jun 19, 2003)

Thanks guys.


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## Wmarden (Jun 19, 2003)

If you strive to understand it you will not.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 19, 2003)

Its all good.


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Jul 1, 2003)

_The Tao of Pooh _ and _The Te of Piglet_ are not in my humble opinion anything that can be considered Daoist. This is pseudo Daoism and may be applicable to Modern Western Standards, but certainly not what most scholars would consider to be solid material for the understanding of the Dao.

I dont even think the Laozi (Dao De Jing) is a great example of Daoist writing. (Tho many disagree with me on this)

The Laozi is a set of writings that were supposedly written by the record keeper of Zhou when he decided to leave the corrupted life behind and head out into the wilderness to practice his understanding of existence.

Never mind that there is no one person who can be called Laozi.
Nevermind that much of the writing style is not in synch with the writing styles of the time period.
Nevermind that there is no consistant writing style period.
And most of all nevermind that the flowery and often contradictory writings of the Laozi would have been all but utter nonsense to the illiterate masses that made up the Chinese society at the time.

If you want to know what Daoism is, I suggest you read the _Zhuangzi  _ (Chuang Tzu) Zhuangzi is much more down to earth. Zhuangzi is also full of stories  that happened to an average everyday guy who just happened to be observant.

Probably my least favorite thing about Daoism is that stupid quote by Brice Lee "Be Water My Friend". That is such a blatant attempt at being profound, by a man who was extremely intelligent and creative in his own right. It has now been used to the point of it being _ cliché_.

The real thing that should be made clear about Daoism is that in spite of theri differences on the exterior, Daoism,   _Ru_(Confucian School), and  _Chan_ (Zen) are essentially the same (especially Daoism and Chan) and in many cases are virtually interchangeable. Many Daoist Temples had Buddhist images and vice versa. In other words, Dao is all in how you look at it. 

If you have to spend a lot of time thinking about it, you probably arent getting it 
Then one day something happens and everything cliks! 

Great post, and please look for the works of Zhuangzi.

Amitoufo


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Jul 1, 2003)

> Probably my least favorite thing about Daoism is that stupid quote by Brice Lee "Be Water My Friend".



Oops, that will learn me to get off my soapbox and check for type-o's wont it...

:soapbox: 

 Poop! I see some more becides "Brice" Lee too!


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## Shadow Hunter (Jul 14, 2003)

Daoism is both a philosophy and a religion. Most of what people have been talking about here is just the basic philosophy, without the religious aspect.

In ancient China (and Japan to a lesser extent) there was a whole dogma attached to the teachings of Lao Tzu- along with ceremonies and such. Wu Dang mountain was one of the most important of the religious centers for this religion. This is the mountain that was featured in the movie "Hidden Dragon, Couching Tiger."

The Daoist priests held that if a man lived his life right, with the proper forms and such, immortality was possible. There were several "saints" that had achieved such a state. There were magic spells and such that supposably helped you achieve immortality. This differs so much from what we think of when we read Lao Tzu as to be a different topic. But it is still the base that many Chinese arts were founded on.


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Jul 14, 2003)

Absolutely.
The religious aspect is the flip side of the Laozi. The cultivation of the Daoist priest was not unlike the process a Chan Monk may undergo to achieve enlightenment.
Lots of Alchemy and elixirs and potions all designed to prolong the Daoist practitioners life.

A geat look at Popular religion in pre-modern China would be Xi Youji. Monkey Starts out as a Daoist immortal, and then meets many of the Shinto or Shamanistic deities like Tree and Mountain demons and spirits, dragons, and heavenly beings, before finally being overcome by the Buddha (perhaps an implied notion of Buddhism's supiriority over the other schools of Chinese Philosophy) 
Aside from Author Wu's subliminal message you get a good idea of what the common person thought of religion in China. Daoism COnfucian, Buddhist, And the Native concepts.


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## pknox (Nov 23, 2003)

I know it doesn't get mentioned much when speaking of important Taoist texts, but how about the _T'ai Shang Kan-Ying P'ien_ (Treatise of the Exalted One on Response and Retribution)?  My understanding is that this text is more read in China than the others, and for those growing numbers of Chinese who mostly encounter Taoism in its more symbolic aspects (i.e. burning "Hell money" for the dead, feng shui, treatises to the eight immortals, and protection from "ghosts") it is considered a pretty important resource.


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## Reprobate (Nov 23, 2003)

Probably the best translation in English:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...=sr_8_1/102-4909401-7392948?v=glance&n=507846


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## Ninway J (Jan 1, 2004)

I have the above-mentioned translation in soft-cover, and it's seems to be pretty good.  It also has explanations of some of the chapters in the back of the book.  There are certain things mentioned in the Laozi that I agree with and other things I don't.  I think, as with probably all Daoist texts, the Laozi helps to point you in the right direction, and the rest is up to you.

I agree that the Dao cannot be fully explained.  I received the realization of the Dao and yin/yang from my sensei, practice in martial arts, and lots of meditation...way before reading any so-called Daoist texts.


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## loki09789 (Jan 6, 2004)

I have read alot of the texts mentioned in previous threads concerning Taoism and have basically come to the following conclusions about all of this.  Right or wrong it's simple and a starting point:

1.  Learn to accept and let go instead of judge and predict

2.  There is a natural order of things that we have to 'let happen' or recognize with open eyes/mind.  Our cluttered mental state is what distracts us from 'the way'.

3.  Nature is a construct that we are a part of, we just have to recognize what that part (internal nature/external nature) we are to play.

This is the basic of what I get from reading it, seems very much like my comprehension of Zen - funny how both translate to 'the way'...

Paul Martin


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## pknox (Jan 6, 2004)

> _Originally posted by loki09789 _
> *This is the basic of what I get from reading it, seems very much like my comprehension of Zen - funny how both translate to 'the way'...*



Excellent point, and it makes complete sense if you look at the development of the two traditions.  One of the things that allowed Buddhism to thrive was its ability to coexist with, and in some occasions, absorb from, native religions.  Buddhism (in its original form), which was developed and was rather strong in India, has elements that are complementary to Hinduism (many of these also survive in the rituals of Tibetan Buddhism and other Theraveda traditions).  Mayahana Buddhism, where Chan [Ch.] /Zen[Jp.] ultimately came from, first developed in China, after being brought over from India.  Mayahana is complementary to Taoism, which is one of the reasons it thrived there.  When Chan Buddhism was brought to Japan from China, it absorbed some Shinto aspects, which resulted in a more "Japanese flavor" , known as Zen.  BTW, this process continues today; "Western" forms of Buddhism often have ideas and concepts that are positioned so as to be familiar to those with a Judeo-Christian upbringing.  See the work of Thich Nhat Hahn, for an example; especially "Living Buddha, Living Christ." (Riverhead, 1997)

The fact that you see parallels between Zen and Taoism is no accident; if your interpretation of Zen is of a Chinese flavor, there is a direct relationship; if it is more Japanese, than there is an indirect one, but a relationship none the less.  It also shows that "Tao" is a pretty far-reaching concept, if not a universal one.


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## loki09789 (Jan 7, 2004)

Does anyone know the heritage/link/development of Tai Chi Chuan - in it's myriad forms - and the link to Daoism.  I know that Tai Chi is the physical metaphor of Daoism, much like O'Sensei Eushiba's Aikido is a physical metaphor of his study of Zen and peace, but what is the who,what,when,where,why and how of the Tai Chi as a meditative discipline as well as a practical art?

Paul martin


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## pknox (Jan 7, 2004)

Hmmm.  Very good question.  I do know that _wu wei_, or the principle of non-action (I know, not the greatest definition, but one that is in common use), is a fundamental tenet of Taoism, and that it is also talked about in Tai Chi Chuan circles, mostly referred to as "yielding" or "absorbing."  That is one link I know of; I'm sure there are many here that are more qualified to speak of additional ones.


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