# The true ninjutsu ryu-ha



## orang_baik (May 22, 2008)

what is the true ninjutsu ryu ha ?

i've learnt that ninjutsu consist of many style :
jujutsu, taijutsu, kenjutsu, hanbojutsu, bajutsu, etc

so which one is the true ninjutsu style ?

is it togakure ?

imho, togakure is the basic style of ninjutsu, it contains only how to escape in different way.

so does it make ninjutsu an escaping technique only?

please make it different between ninpo and ninjutsu to make the discussion doesnt go to wide

pls help me understand this.....


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## MahaKaal (May 22, 2008)

Depends on your interpretation of "getting away", it can be either run far away and to fight another day, or avoid an attack so subtley that you destroy your opponent before he recovers.


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## mrhnau (May 22, 2008)

orang_baik said:


> what is the true ninjutsu ryu ha ?
> 
> i've learnt that ninjutsu consist of many style :
> jujutsu, taijutsu, kenjutsu, hanbojutsu, bajutsu, etc
> ...


Togakure ryu is one of the ninja ryu. There are two others, but those are not often taught, at least that I am aware of.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bujinkan Contains list of the other ninpo schools, as well as a link to Togakure.



> imho, togakure is the basic style of ninjutsu, it contains only how to escape in different way.


It's more than just escapes!



> so does it make ninjutsu an escaping technique only?


nope  Lots of taijutsu, weapons, and other neat stuff... Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Togakure_Ryu for a bit more. Do a bit of searching on this forum as well


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## orang_baik (May 22, 2008)

hmm now  I know that togakure taught a lot of style :

paste from wiki :
the 18 forms of Togakure Bujutsu
Taijutsu
Ninja Ken
Bajutsu
Shurikenjutsu
Kusarigama
Yari
Naginata
Bojutsu
Suiren
Kayakujutsu
Bo Ryaku
Choho
Shinobi Iri
Intonjutsu
Hensojutsu
Tenmon
Chimon
Seishin Teki Kyoyo


But still after a few years in learning ninjutsu <bujin an then go to genbu>, I'm learning most of the technique are from different ryu, like koto ryu, gyoko ryu for taijutsu; kukishin ryu for bo/hanbo; 

<i never learnt bajutsu, naginata jutsu, etc>

from what i know, togakure is leaping, dropping technique
and also intonjutsu, tenmon is also from togakure

but is there any fighting techique (i meant physically) is from togakure


also I never see anyone with shoden in togakure (or perhaps i just dont know ?)


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## mrhnau (May 22, 2008)

orang_baik said:


> <i never learnt bajutsu, naginata jutsu, etc>


Some stuff is not taught frequently, and it really depends on the school you are in.



> but is there any fighting techique (i meant physically) is from togakure


Might be that your instructor is not aware of some of it, or not prepared enough to teach it. It's there!



> also I never see anyone with shoden in togakure (or perhaps i just dont know ?)



Hatsumi used to give belts in just Togakure ryu in the old day, but these days, its in the Bujinkan, which is a combination of lots of schools, including Togakure. Don't expect to see people sporting Togakure licenses, unless they are pretty old


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## orang_baik (May 23, 2008)

yeah, I've heard that Bujinkan actually is from Takamatsu's Togakure School

So thats mean that Soke dont give license anymore from togakure ?


yupe i've never learnt about bajutsu, naginata, kyujutsu etc , perhaps my level is not enough  <poor me>

ok so Togakure is ninja ryu, what else ? (pls dont tell me about koga ryu and iga ryu)


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## Chris Parker (May 23, 2008)

Hi,

When the Bujinkan was first formed (70's/80's), Hatsumi Sensei used the Togakure Ryu name as an umbrella term for everythig he taught (from all the systems he inherited from Takamatsu Sensei). This is most often thought to be because Togakure Ryu has the longest tradition (34 Sokes, founded 1185), and was therefore given more respect than the other arts. However, the main technical knowledge came from systems such as Gyokko Ryu (Kihon Happo and Sanshin no Gata), Takagi Yoshin Ryu (the basis of most of the Bujinkan's Muto Dori), Kukishinden Ryu (most of the weaponry techniques: sword, bo, hanbo, etc) and a few others. So even when the earlier practitioners had their ranking in Togakure Ryu, it was really still a "Bujinkan" rank under a different name. This isn't an uncommon situation, though. The Shindo Muso Ryu Jojutsu includes arts such as Ikkaku Ryu Juttejutsu, Uchida Ryu Tanjojutsu, Isshin Ryu Kusarigamajutsu and Ittatsu Ryu Hojojutsu; the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu in some branches include a separate Iai school called Yagyu Seigo Ryu.

For Togakure Ryu's physical techniques, the scroll is broken into a few different sections, and is covered in other threads here... but in short, the main scroll includes the Santo Tonso no Gata (defences against grabbing and weapon attacks, using Metsubishi and Senban Shuriken), the Ukemi no Gata (Shuko against sword), Hiden no Gata (intuition/Sakkijutsu), Shinobi Gaeshi Gata (concealed techniques), as well as sections on Kamae, and a scroll of swordsmanship. This year for the Bujinkan is the year of Togakure Ryu, so there will probably be a fair amount of information coming out as the months go on, and Hatsumi Sensei has a new book out soon which is supposed to include the kata for each and every school that is taught.

For other Ninjutsu schools... it really does depend on your interpretation. The Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Gikan Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu have very closely related histories, and have been linked with the Iga region of Japan, as well as with prominent Ninja of history (such as Momochi Sandayu, who is claimed as Soke of Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu, and Ishikawa Goemon, who was said to have been a student of Gyokko Ryu, although the Ryu doesn't mention him as far as I know), so you could claim them as Ninjutsu Ryu. Add to that the Kumogakure Ryu, which is thought by some to have been developed by the Toda family when they were the heads of Togakure Ryu, using Togakure Ryu as a basis. Not much has been shown of Kumogakure Ryu (see Hatsumi Sensei's Koppojutsu DVD for perhaps the only example), but it is said to have very few kata, being more based in strategies than physical movements, but does include such "secret weapons" as Ippon Sugi Nobori and the Kama Yari.  

Most of the other elements (Bajutsu, Tenmon Chimon, Kyujutsu etc) seem to be things that you would cover in your own personal research. I seem to remember reading years ago Hatsumi Sensei saying something along the lines that the old ways of predicting weather aren't that important these days, as the news each night gives a pretty good idea using their satelites and modern technology. But that doesn't mean that the old knowledge isn't there...


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## orang_baik (May 23, 2008)

wowwwwww

thanks Mr Parker, for the enlightenment 

Now I understand about the ryuha more


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## mrhnau (May 23, 2008)

Chris Parker said:


> Hatsumi Sensei has a new book out soon which is supposed to include the kata for each and every school that is taught.


That should be interesting  when is it due out? I'm looking forward to it!


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## jks9199 (May 23, 2008)

mrhnau said:


> That should be interesting  when is it due out? I'm looking forward to it!


I think it's already out, or at least on pre-order at Amazon.  There have been a couple of threads on it.


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## Chris Parker (May 23, 2008)

Good question... There have been a few dates thrown around, but I'm expecting it in the next few months at the latest. Keep your eye on sites such as www.ninjutsu.com (Richard Van Donk Shihan).


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## Chris Parker (May 23, 2008)

Amazon has a tendancy to advertise items and take money before anything is confirmed... I tend to trust ninjutsu.com for timing a bit more.


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## mrhnau (May 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I think it's already out, or at least on pre-order at Amazon.  There have been a couple of threads on it.



Is THIS it?


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## Chris Parker (May 23, 2008)

Yep, that's the one. Doug Wilson did the translation, or at least assisted (but I think he did all of it), and covered it a few times on his blog, which I think is henka.org (?). If anyone remembers the exact address or can post a link, I'm sure people will be interested.


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## jks9199 (May 23, 2008)

Chris Parker said:


> Yep, that's the one. Doug Wilson did the translation, or at least assisted (but I think he did all of it), and covered it a few times on his blog, which I think is henka.org (?). If anyone remembers the exact address or can post a link, I'm sure people will be interested.


Henka is Doug Wilson's blog.  Lots of good stuff to read there...


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 23, 2008)

I pre-ordered mine so now it is just sit and wait for it to show up sometime next month!


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## orang_baik (May 24, 2008)

this is the book right ?


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 24, 2008)

orang_baik said:


> this is the book right ?


 
Yes!


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## Obi Wan Shinobi (May 25, 2008)

Interesting title but a great pic of Soke nonetheless.


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