# Modern Arnis Mania in FMA Digest



## The Game (Jun 18, 2008)

http://www.fmadigest.com/Issues/spe...l-Edition_Modern-Arnis-Family-Institution.pdf

Very interesting read. All I can say is, WOW!


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## Brian Johns (Jun 18, 2008)

The interview with Rosemary Presas was an interesting read to say the least and raised my eyebrows. As has been alluded to elsewhere here on MT and FMA Talk, there are probably some complicated feelings with regard to Professor and the PI and USA Modern Arnis players. All I can say is whew !


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## Guro Harold (Jun 18, 2008)

Good reading. Thanks for the link!


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## Dieter (Jun 19, 2008)

Interesting read with some good facts.
But like everybody else, there are different truths, different realities.
The Presas family certainly has their point of view of what happened and they are trying to transport this view as the only truth. 
But it is not.

Other people have others. GM Remy met many people and there is nobody, who can claim the sole leadership in Modern Arnis in the world any more. 
And hardly anybody actually does.
We all try to do our share, that GM Remy and his Modern Arnis will not be forgotten.

Just one little thing to think about:
If family was so important to GM Remy as it is written there, why did GM Remy never try to contact his wife and kids during his multiple visits to the Philippines in the late 90s? Why did he not meet them and trained with them? And I know he did not. 

And some facts are just not true.
I have seen the 9th Dan certificate of GM Christino Vasquez, signed by G Remy Presas.
Actually, I even have a copy of this here on my computer.
So it is not correct, that Jerry, Rodel, Vic and Roland were the only ones who got 8th Dan or higher from GM Remy.
As to the best of my knowledge, GM Rene Tongson got 8th Dan from GM Remy as well..
This is only an example, that not all fact are correct here and that the Presas family is not aware of everything, that GM Remy Presas has done, for they had no communication with him for more than 25 years. (exept Demetrio who met his father 3 times in those 25 years).

I do respect Remy Jr. for giving up his academic career to teach Modern Arnis instead, but he is only the leader for Modern Arnis in MARPPIO, not  for all the other Modern Arnis practitioners in the world.


Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 19, 2008)

I skimmed it. One part I noticed was the comment about how only a few of the Senior Masters were legit. Some of the articles seemed to have a lot of anger in them, some seemed more relaxed to me. I'll have to reread it more carefully when I have some time to devote to it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 19, 2008)

Dieter said:


> Interesting read with some good facts.
> But like everybody else, there are different truths, different realities.
> The Presas family certainly has their point of view of what happened and they are trying to transport this view as the only truth.
> But it is not.
> ...


 
I think this sums up everything very nicely Dieter!


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## Brian Johns (Jun 19, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I skimmed it. One part I noticed was the comment about how only a few of the Senior Masters were legit. Some of the articles seemed to have a lot of anger in them, some seemed more relaxed to me. I'll have to reread it more carefully when I have some time to devote to it.



Good to hear that someone else detected anger in some of the articles as I did.


Take care,
Brian


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## Dieter (Jun 19, 2008)

Yes, you are right, there is a lot of anger in them.
Not a good adviser, when you write and talk about somebody, that you use as a legitimation of being a leader.

The facts are not right. 

Other examples:
GM Remy never trained Doce Pares, he did not learn with his father but grandfather etc.

You cannot change history, even if you try.


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Salagubang (Jun 19, 2008)

Dieter said:


> I have seen the 9th Dan certificate of GM Christino Vasquez, signed by G Remy Presas.
> 
> Datu of Modern Arnis


 
I have seen and hold this certificate....


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## Morgan (Jun 19, 2008)

Brian Johns said:


> The interview with Rosemary Presas was an interesting read to say the least and raised my eyebrows. As has been alluded to elsewhere here on MT and FMA Talk, there are probably some complicated feelings with regard to Professor and the PI and USA Modern Arnis players. All I can say is whew !


 
Wowsers... I've read the article in question several times and have come to the following conclusion: I believe that we need someone quite familiar with Filipino customs, culture and inheritance law to contribute to this thread.

As I read thru this article, it became quite evident to me that there are some major issues regarding family connections, inheritance, intellectual contributions, intellectual ownership, legal statuses and customary practices with regard to the Philippines versus the USA, Canada and Germany.  The statements of Mrs. Rosemary Presas and Dr. Remy Presas, Jr. have to view at least partially in terms of the ways things are done in the Philippines.

No comments about who's right or wrong.  I'm qualified to make such a judgment.  There legal and cultural differences that have to be considered in context.  You have the family on one side, the students from the Philippines, the students from the USA, Canada, Germany and other places with different connections to Professor Presas.  ALL of that has to be considered and sorted out before anyone can make definitive
statements about right and wrong, ownership and succession.  Good luck to all.

Morgan


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## The Game (Jun 19, 2008)

Morgan said:


> Wowsers... I've read the article in question several times and have come to the following conclusion: I believe that we need someone quite familiar with Filipino customs, culture and inheritance law to contribute to this thread.
> 
> As I read thru this article, it became quite evident to me that there are some major issues regarding family connections, inheritance, intellectual contributions, intellectual ownership, legal statuses and customary practices with regard to the Philippines versus the USA, Canada and Germany.  The statements of Mrs. Rosemary Presas and Dr. Remy Presas, Jr. have to view at least partially in terms of the ways things are done in the Philippines.
> 
> ...


It's simple.
Remy was a US Citizen. So US Law takes precedence.


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## The Game (Jun 19, 2008)

The Game said:


> It's simple.
> Remy was a US Citizen. So US Law takes precedence.


Interview with Rosemary Presas

"Remy P. Presas is the eldest son of the Grandmaster and Modern Arnis is rightfully his. Other people are trying to take it and trying to say they deserve this and they deserve that. You know, these people don't have humility in martial arts.
....They only want money and fame. They only want to ride on the coattails of Grandmaster Remy."

Interesting comments. Correct me if I'm wrong but, where was Remy P. Presas from 1990 until 2001? 

Ah, he was the first student, but was trained by Jerry Dela Cruz and Rodel Dagooc.  Remy Sr. left the PI when Remy Jr. was in 5th grade, which would put him at about 10 or 11 at the time. How much contact did he have with his father from then until 2001, to learn first hand where his father was taking the art? Also during this time Arnis was a secondary priority as he was going to school which is a time consuming thin in itself. 

Why would Modern Arnis be his? Because he's Remy Sr.'s son? 
Maybe, but shouldn't the leader of a syste know the full system and it's history?

In his own interview, RemyJr. states that Datu = 6th degree. An odd statement since Datu David Hoffman is only listed as a 5th degree in Modern Arnis, and Datu Jornales has no rank in Modern Arnis that I'm aware of. Also, if 6th = Datu, wouldn't that make Dan Anderson a Datu?  Now there is an interesting topic. Super Datu Dan. :rofl: So, which is it?

Now Dr. Presas makes the comment about the family not recognizing or promoting anyone until they can demonstrate they know the art. That's great. Can they demonstrate mastery of the way Modern Arnis was taught the last 10 years of GM Remy's life in the US or just what it was like in the PI prior to his leaving there? Which version are they masters of?

Now, I say and ask this not to knock Remy Jr. I've seen his videos, and he's from all accounts a decent guy looking to keep his fathers dream alive. I can't fault that, and wish him the best of luck in doing so. But. Here's that but thing. But, having read through novels on forums and talked to countless high level North American and European Arnisadors, who all have said basically the same things as far as history of the art goes, why would the families chosen head, basically be wrong on such points? Does he know, or is this the way they want it to be, and are bothered that so many others won't line up and toe the line, and pay the dues?

The genie is out of the bottle, and it won't ever go back in. Sorry.


Trust me. I have more to say here, but this is enough to chew on for the moment.


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## arnisador (Jun 19, 2008)

The Game said:


> Interview with Rosemary Presas
> 
> "Remy P. Presas is the eldest son of the Grandmaster and Modern Arnis is rightfully his. Other people are trying to take it[...]"



Actually, he _gave _it to others, via the MOTT titles and his will. I don't think he was ambiguous about whether or not he was leaving it to the children.


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## The Game (Jun 19, 2008)

Oh yes.  The will.  Who did that give it too again?


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## The Game (Jun 19, 2008)

One version of the will which was discussed here in late 2003 stated:


> It is a "certified copy" from August 20, 2003, of Wake County. Why a copy was just made to be forward out, i'm not sure. Also, I think since this is the one on record from August at the county building, it would indicate that this is the 3rd of the 3 wills.
> 
> The second decree of the will states
> I direct that my executor forma legal corporation to promote the art of Modern Arnis. I direct that the mission of this orginization will be to promote, teach, and repserve the art of Modern Arnis, which has been my lifes passion and work. The board will elect a chairman and co-chairman from its ranks at the annual meeting of the board, which will be held immediatly before or after the summer camp which is held yearly in MIchigan, or at another location to be chosen by the members by majority vote.
> ...



Of course, this is disputed by the familys statement of "My father, GM Remy A. Presas, died intestate (without a will) according to a lawyer from Victoria, Canada, whom I quote in his letter to us, &#8220;On the joint instructions of Randy Schea, and Yvette Wong, we prepared a new will for your father to sign. Unfortunately, when we attended at his bedside he was in no condition to understand or appreciate the nature of his actions, and we were not able to witness his execution. The result is that your father has died intestate (without a will)." which was made by Demetrio Presas.

The joys of conflicting legal systems.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 20, 2008)

It's nice to see the family active again. I question their mastery of history however. I also think it's too late for them to try and get a trademark on the term "Modern Arnis" and enforce any kind of licensing considering that MARPPIO is alot newer an organization than any of the larger Arnis organizations such as the IMAF's, WMAA or DAV.


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## The Game (Jun 20, 2008)

The family is basically saying that if you don't have rank from them, your rank is invalid, unless you have paper to prove it. This is a statement very similar to the one Jeff Delany put out shortly after taking over the IMAF before it split into 2 factions. 
It also sounds like they aren't recognizing many if any non Filipino masters ranks either.

I don't see any of the organization heads who received 5th and 6th degree promotions from GM Remy rushing out to look for rank from lesser experienced and possibly lower ranked individuals, blood or not.

Does anyone know the ranks and promotion histories of the family?
The only one I could find was Carlomagno, listed as a 3rd in Modern Arnis and a 1st in Sikaran.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 20, 2008)

The Game said:


> The family is basically saying that if you don't have rank from them, your rank is invalid, unless you have paper to prove it. This is a statement very similar to the one Jeff Delany put out shortly after taking over the IMAF before it split into 2 factions.
> It also sounds like they aren't recognizing many if any non Filipino masters ranks either.
> 
> I don't see any of the organization heads who received 5th and 6th degree promotions from GM Remy rushing out to look for rank from lesser experienced and possibly lower ranked individuals, blood or not.
> ...


 
This is a start:
Here are the MARPPIO recognized black belts.


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## arnisador (Jun 20, 2008)

The Game said:


> The family is basically saying that if you don't have rank from them, your rank is invalid, _*unless you have paper to prove it*_.



(_*Emphasis *_added.) That sounds reasonable...unless one knows how lackadaisical the org. was in the U.S. for a long time.


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## The Game (Jun 20, 2008)

Palusut said:


> This is a start:
> Here are the MARPPIO recognized black belts.


 
Thanks, but I didn't see any of the family listed there and their bios on the site don't list ranks.



arnisador said:


> (_*Emphasis *_added.) That sounds reasonable...unless one knows how lackadaisical the org. was in the U.S. for a long time.


 
True. Very true.  It would be intersting to see if the paper some claim to have holds up to the families scrutiny, though I doubt those with questionable paper will risk it.


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## The Game (Jun 20, 2008)

While doing some Google Splunkin, I found this nugget which might contradict Dr. Presas's comments on what a Datu is in regards to not just Filipino's, but Modern Arnis.



> KSW. Thank you Roland for those kind words, I would like to discuss a politically intriguing subject as Professor Remy Presas listens in on our discussion. In many ways you are a direct link into the current state of the martial arts in the Philippines and worldwide. Professor Remy Presas has appointed his most senior instructors the title, Datu of Modern Arnis. These individuals he trusts to represent Modern Arnis with the responsibility of reaching out to spread the art of Modern Arnis to other schools and styles. Roland, could you clarify the meaning of this title or status?
> 
> R.D. Thank you for that question. I think there is a lot of people who have the wrong interpretation of the word Datu. First and foremost I was born in the south of the Philippines. I was born is Catabotto, which is on the island of Mindinao. The whole island of Mindinao is where you'll find the majority of Filipino Muslims, in the Muslim faith. A Datu can mean the leader of a tribe, a prince, a member of a family of higher class or status in the community. A Datu title doesn't imply it is an older person, no. Datu can be a young man or an old man. There is no age barrier when it comes to Datu. That title is given because an individual has achieved an accomplishment, has earned the respect. The title was given to them by a Muslim elder as a form of recognition for his accomplishments. Datu can mean all those things.



and



> KSW. Here in America, there has been a small group of outspoken individuals that disagree with the usage of the title and imply that Professor Presas and those few he has appointed and promoted to Datu offend the mother country and status of Datu by using the title in association with the highest rank and level of Modern Arnis. Do you find it offensive that Professor Presas, who is here in the room with us right now, would use the title Datu to distinguish his most senior accomplished students?
> 
> 
> R.D. No, not at all, that is why I called you Datu earlier in the interview Kelly, because I gave you that respect too. I admire what you have done in propagating the Filipino martial arts so I personally choose to call you Datu. That is a terminology out of respect for what you have accomplished. I would also like to point out, you and Professor's chosen few are not the only westerners to use the title Datu. I have a friend who married a Filipino Muslim. He is also American. The group of Muslim elders around the area he lived in gave him the Datu, because they loved him for what he had done for the people in their providence in Mindanao. He accepted their faith, by doing that as well they called him a Datu. Even if he did not accept their Muslim faith, they still would have called him Datu because of their admiration and respect for him. So as you see, the Professor giving you recognition for your commitment and achievement in Modern Arnis bestowed the rank and title of Datu to you. Professor has also shared with me in our conversations that you are without a doubt the most dynamic and knowledgeable martial artist he has promoted within Modern Arnis here in America.


http://wordenreality.blogspot.com/

Who am I to argue with Master Roland Dantes and Kelly Worden?


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## Guro Harold (Jun 20, 2008)

The Game said:


> Thanks, but I didn't see any of the family listed there and their bios on the site don't list ranks.
> 
> 
> 
> True. Very true. It would be intersting to see if the paper some claim to have holds up to the families scrutiny, though I doubt those with questionable paper will risk it.


Sorry about that.

Dont know how promotions are handled within a family system.


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## The Game (Jun 20, 2008)

I've seen them listed as Punong-Guro's but no numerical belt ranks.


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## James Miller (Jun 21, 2008)

The Game said:


> I've seen them listed as Punong-Guro's but no numerical belt ranks.



It looks like 9th degree. He *seems* to be wearing a gold trim belt.

From the MARPIO site:
Lakan Antas 9 - Black with gold stripes - Lifetime Practice


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## Guro Harold (Jun 21, 2008)

James Miller said:


> It looks like 9th degree. He *seems* to be wearing a gold trim belt.
> 
> From the MARPIO site:
> Lakan Antas 9 - Black with gold stripes - Lifetime Practice


Great observation!

10th from what I remember hearing will always be reserved from the late GM Remy A. Presas.


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## The Game (Jun 21, 2008)

Thank you.


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## The Game (Jun 21, 2008)

For more comments, check this **** out.
http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=4397



			
				Datu Tim Hartman said:
			
		

> So with all of the posts about the Presas edition of FMA Digest I decided to call Junior myself to hear what he had to say. We talked about some of the posts that have surfaced on the net, his mother&#8217;s statement as well as what his position is. I think that there is a problem with perception. I think that we must separate what Junior&#8217;s organization is doing versus what his father did.
> 
> When we ended the conversation I had mixed feeling of anger and disappointment! During our conversation I was shocked by a racist statement that came from Junior that since that I wasn&#8217;t Filipino that I would never amount to much as an FMA instructor! This isn&#8217;t the first time I&#8217;ve been exposed to this type of behavior, although I was appalled that it came from the son of my teacher and adopted father.
> 
> I shouldn&#8217;t be concerned with Junior&#8217;s perception of things. What matters most to me is what GM Remy thought. It is clear in my mind how Remy felt about me. When Joseph, his youngest son was born, Remy asked me to teach Joseph if anything happened to him. Further more, I was included in his will as one of the people he chose to continue his art. I think that it speaks volumes that his children were not part of his list.





			
				jun balagtas said:
			
		

> First thing:
> 
> Modern Arnis was created by the Presas family
> 
> ...





			
				Brock said:
			
		

> I find that odd considering it contradicts a comment he made at the Senkotiros Sama-Sama this year. He said something to the effect of there were two types od Filipinos practicing the arts, those that were Filipino by birth and those that were by choice.





			
				The Game said:
			
		

> It was created by Remy A. Presas, over a lifetime, a good part of which his family in the PI unfortunately had little experience with.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 21, 2008)

I so love pm's saying "Bob, you have to comment."

Before I do, I need to clear up something. The Presas Family will most likely not be responding here. A month or 2 ago they or a representative of theirs registered here with the intent of posting notices concerning their website and forum, in violation of our posted advertising rules. They also refused to comply with our posted requirements of 1-account per person, and refused to provide a real name when asked. The exchanges were not pleasant, and their organization account was since banned. I have trouble giving respect to those who do not offer respect back. An unfortunate situation, as their input and presence would otherwise have been most welcome here. If they wish to re-register and comply with our policies, they are welcome to return.

I read the issue. I saw anger, resentment, passion, and hope.
I read comments on how others got rich on Remy's name and the family got squat. I'm sorry, but I've yet to meet a wealthy Modern Arnis instructor. My experiences with martial artists is, most are rather low on the wealth list.

I disagree with any statement that says one must be of X nationality to do X art.
One might as well say one needs to be short, skinny, limber and have a short fuse and hot temper to do FMA. Sounds racist huh? Well, so is any statement made that says only a native can do it well or teach it well. JMA, CMA, KMA, FMA, etc. Anyone with the right attributes and heart and dedication can learn and master the mechanics of any art.

I have taken issue with those claiming to be a Modern Arnis Grandmaster. My current view is, there is no one currently able to claim and hold that title today. Tomorrow it may be different.

"Modern Arnis is the Families birthright". Maybe. But they themselves have said they hardly saw Remy Sr. during much of his US time. That implies a lack of knowledge of where he was going with it. Where that was, we will never know. It died with him in 2001.  A lot of people claim to know it, and a lot of them are full of crap, and they know who they are. The family, and those who were loyal to Remy are right to be angry at the leeches who came out of nowhere to try and make a fast buck.

"Modern Arnis Ranks not from the family aren't valid". They can recognize or not anyone they wish. That is their right. Others may return that favor to them. 

"Everyone should come under the family now that they are here". I disagree. The family is Modern Arnis, but it may not be the same Modern Arnis that Remy was doing at the end. I see it as another piece of the whole, but not the whole it self.  

The comments on the Datu title were wrong. I've had enough arguments about that one, and have done enough research and talked to enough Filipinos and long time Modern Arnis people to be certain of that. They do have the right to make it a rank-title for their organization, but I don't think it'll be seen as the same level as the 6 that Remy sr. issued.

I'm an eternal consumer.  I shop/eat/train/whatever where I see value to myself. I will not train where I see no value, and I will train where I do....money willing of course.

I don't see a grand Modern Arnis unification under the family banner happening. MARPPIO may become the big organization, it may become a foot note. In the end, it falls to quality and marketing. Dr. Presas and his family are going to have to do as was said: Travel, Teach, and Sell! They are going to have to demonstrate that they not only know Modern Arnis's past, but have the vision to take it into the future, to show that they can excite students, teach what they know, and grow an organization. They are going to have to in over long entrenched Modern Arnis players who have no idea who they are, even with the name, and prove themselves over and over again.

The name will only take them so far, and it is a good name, and they are good too. I've seen their videos, heard the feedback from those who went to their seminars, and read their bios. They are good, and getting better and they are damn smart people. But in the end, they are going to have to succeed or fail on their own merits, and build bridges and alliances. Not piss off and burn those who were out there doing, and who also have deep feelings towards the art and man that they themselves loved so dear.

In the end, I wish them all the best of luck. 
Only the Gods know what the Future itself brings.




Discuss all you want, please send flames to idontgiveadamn@martialtalk.com
Thanks.
:wavey:


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## chris arena (Jun 21, 2008)

I was a bit taken aback by this article. Both as a member of Marpio (and NSI). I would not even be responding if it was'nt for the fact that I am listed as a Lakas rank on the Marpio site. I am really pissed off about this article!

Heres' my take: this is all old news, Remy Jr. has come a long way towards gaining acceptance over the past few years and in time, he would be able to stand and be counted along with everyone else. Therfore the legacy would survive intact! But now, a hand grenade has been thrown. Not by Remy, but by the interviewer who was in control of the flow and topic.

Yes, there are many deserving Datus and teachers that this article slaps in the face. My teacher, Datu Worden who always stood by the Professor, even through disagreements and was there in the end who stood by the family, was barely mentioned, even though he recieved an 8th degree by Ms. Presas herself. And, that it was at his house, Remy wanted to be moved from Vancouver too. (I helped clean the room at Datu's house, so I know this first hand). Dieter Knudel, who built Modern Arnis Germany on his own. Master Ken Smith & friends, who all of us has watched, time and time again get twisted, yanked, banged and bruised by the professor on his videos and others, for thier contributions were not listed. For these reasons, either out of ignorance, or whatever, the interviewer of this article could have taken the time to steer the conversation into a more positive light. All of this has been left out? Why? What was there to gain?

But it is done and done. What have we learned? the answer is absolutely nothing! Modern Arnis, unfortunately from the start, has been plaqued with a LACK OF CONTROL when it comes to *organizational enforcement*! Here again, someone, (well meaning or with alterior motives.--who knows) gets an article printed, in this case printed worldwide! Remy Senior placed many people that should never have been place and here it is, *happening all over again*!
It is evident to me that Remy stood by and let this happen! I find this absolutely unbelievable!

I really like Remy Jr. but he has to learn that he is in control and that strong statement like these have to stated by him and him alone. this article has done more to hurt him than help him. To me this is a very, very sad thing for me to say.

Chris Arena
(No fancy b.s. slogans)


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## chris arena (Jun 21, 2008)

One more item in regards to rank.  I am listed as a 4th degree!! This is a print error. I am only a 1st degree.

Chris Arena


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 21, 2008)

Here's a thought.
Take the family, grab some PG's, Sr. Masters, some MOTT's and some Datus.  Do a week long mega camp. 1 in the US, 1 in Europe and 1 in the PI. Show it all, the old, the new, etc. Put the egos, the anger, the politics, the organiational factions and the emotion away and just do some kick *** Modern Arnis.  Focus on building bridges between everyone, and really honoring GM Remy with super Super-camp.

Wait.  I think I said this before.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 21, 2008)

Before anyone blames *FMADigest* for what was put in print, don&#8217;t.  I had a long conversation with the editor the other day.  We discussed fact, fiction, misconceptions.  The Presas family knew what they were saying and meant everything they said.  The Presas family expects the Modern Arnis community to fall in line behind them.  If the children had been part of their fathers art after moving to the States twenty plus years ago, things would be different.  This was not the case.  If you read the article, they tell you themselves that they had very little contact with their father.  When they did visit their father in the hospice, he was near death.  As I said in another thread, if Remy wanted his children to take over his art, he would have included that in his will.  

  Had the Presas family approached us (the Modern Arnis community) to help them, carry on in their father&#8217;s footsteps, I for one, would have welcomed them with open arms.  But based on several face-to-face meetings with the family, I feel they are motivated not by love of their father, but out of spite and revenge.  They feel that they were cheated out of their inheritance (which may be correct) and this is the only way to get what is coming to them.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 21, 2008)

Well, the switchboards certainly have been lit up recently.  A couple of points.

1.  Mrs. Presas' history might be totally correct.  It's hard to say as I wasn't there.  Having authored a number of books I know that the 'flavor' of the first two books in his name was certainly different than the book published in the US.  From being around Remy personally I know he wasn't the 'sit around and type out a manuscript' type.  The degree of involvement that she had in the formulation of Modern Arnis, especially in the naming of techniques and curriculum and the like - again, I wasn't there so I can't say.  But we do get to point number two next. 

2.  A key point to consider is that Mrs. Presas had virtually nothing to do with the development of Modern Arnis once Remy fled the PI back in 1975.  She was not there when he met Prof. Wally Jay, a truly important turning point in the development of MA.  She wasn't there when he met George Dillman, either.  She was in the PI all the time he was here.  I spent a good number of hours with him (as did many others) and I never once hear one word about him being in communication with her when he was in the USA.  According to a post made by Dieter Knutel, the last time RP was in the Philippines he didn't contact her then, either.  He did contact his first cousin, Cristino Vasquez, and his second cousin, Rene Tongson to get them to organize IMAF Philippines to reunite Modern Arnis players in the homeland.

3.  I find it hard to believe there is some genetic 'configuration' that would make someone from one the home country be better at that martial art than someone from a different country or genetic background.  That Remy Jr. 'has the blood of the Grandmaster' within him matters not from any scientific data that I am aware of.  Physical training is physical training - hard work and buckets of sweat dripping from a person over a long period of time is what makes the skill.  Culturally it is a different matter.  I don't, for a minute, believe that I would come close to understanding the Filipino culture better than a native from that area.  But this is understanding the culture I am talking about.

4.  Neither knowing the culture nor the laws of the land of the Philippines, I cannot comment on the marital status (divorced or not) of RP and RP but he does have a widowed wife and two children up in Victoria, BC whose existence cannot be denied.  Remy Jr. and his brother and sisters do have a half brother and half sister.

5.  As to valid recognition, I have Remy Presas' signature on every Modern Arnis certificate I possess.  I (and a number of others) am a first generation student of his.  I have trained personally with him, taken my lumps from him, gotten my smiles from him.  I do not feel the need to recertify in a new unit of time in the art he personally trained me in.

6.  Remy Presas okayed my curriculum as valid.  I value my status as an independent.  MA-80 is independent of one and all save for one person, me.

7.  All in all, I wish that RP made things abundantly clear long before his death as to the whats, whys and wherefores of Modern Arnis in the first place.  Then when he died there wouldn't be the ghost of Ed Parker looking down on us sadly shaking his head.  All of us who Prof. Presas trained are family, in one way or another.  Tim Hartman said it the best when he said that Modern Arnis is one big dysfunctional family.  I think the leaders of the different groups share one essential thing in common - our passion for the art the founder taught us.  That is one thing I keep in perspective whenever the political stuff rears its ugly head, we are all passionate about what we were taught and what we believe.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Here's a thought.
> Take the family, grab some PG's, Sr. Masters, some MOTT's and some Datus. Do a week long mega camp. 1 in the US, 1 in Europe and 1 in the PI. Show it all, the old, the new, etc. Put the egos, the anger, the politics, the organiational factions and the emotion away and just do some kick *** Modern Arnis. Focus on building bridges between everyone, and really honoring GM Remy with super Super-camp.
> 
> Wait. I think I said this before.


 
I tried that a couple of years ago.  Believe you me, I really tried.  Didn't happen.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 21, 2008)

Dan Anderson said:


> I tried that a couple of years ago.  Believe you me, I really tried.  Didn't happen.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


A couple people did Dan. Some motivated by the passion, some by politics, etc, it always seems to go kaboom. Sad really.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 21, 2008)

The other sad part of this is the small number of closed minded and bitter people who are even now twisting words, filling in blanks and cackling with glee over the whole thing in little internet holes...maybe they should be the first ones to get behind the family and put their own futures where they think others should, y'know? Show up to a MARPPIO event, test for rank and accept what they get, and not make excuses about how it doesn't apply to them, they are independant, and that Remy signed off on them back when Ford was still President, and all that stuff. Naw, that'll never happen. 

Not aimed at you Dan. You're clear on where you stand, and that's cool. You still have to live or die on your own merits, but you know that and haven't seemed afraid to go that route. I don't think I'll be hearing about you living in an old sofa box anytime soon. 

Same is true of alot of the "old timers". Course, I'm still waiting to see Bill Gates at an Arnis camp.  Thats when you know who made all that mon-ay! 
(Hint, it aint me. Buy a supporting membership, feed a starving geek. I need pizza, stat!)
(humor injection over)

and with that good people, I'm bowing out here. Arnis is a good system, in all its flavors, has a lot of good people, but the politics and ego and sense of entitlement that's mixed in with a few folks, sours the flavor for me. Good luck, I'll see some of you on the floors here n there so smile for the camera.


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 22, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> A couple people did Dan. Some motivated by the passion, some by politics, etc, it always seems to go kaboom. Sad really.


 
Please quote me who and when.  Nobody other than me contacted every major head of an organization, promised to fly them in to a camp for just the purpose of teaching their own flavor of Modern Arnis.  As I said before, didn't happen.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 22, 2008)

Jerome did his thing, and you did yours. Those 2 I remember somewhat well. I think.  Yours was the one in the cabins or woods down in WV or VA or there abouts right?
I vaguely recall 1-2 in the PI, and think I remember something in Europe, but my memory's a bit foggy on specifics. I might be mistaken on some of that too. *shrug*
I wasn't knocking ya. Just saying it sucked that it didn't happen.


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## Dieter (Jun 22, 2008)

The Presas family is asking for respect that they don't get.
But respect is a 2 way street if you don't give it, you don't get any.

And what I have found myself and what I know from others, they do not care about any other western Modern Arnis instructor except of Kelly Worden.


They say they only accept Modern Arnis ranks, that were tested under them.
And I agree with James Miller, that they give the appearance, to have 9th Dan. But who gave it to them? 
I have my 6th Dan and Datu title signed by GM Remy and my 7th Dan is signed by Roberto Presas, Rodel Dagooc, Vic Sanchez, Jerry Dela Cruz, Roland Dantes, Christino Vasquez, Renen Tongson, Bambit Dulay, Prof. Sorteco and Salvador Demaisip. 
Who signed their 9th Dan certificate?

And if it was nobody, than there should some reaction arise here at least compared to Dan's 8th Dan or Tim's 9th Dan, because then the 9t Dan is self given.
Or did it come from Rosemary Presas, who had what rank in Modern Arnis?

They state themselves, that the highest Modern Arnis ranks they know of are the 8th Dans of Rodel, Vic, Roland and Jerry. 
That means, that they did not get any high rank.

Remy Jr. stated, that he was the first black belt under Remy.
But if I recall right, he must have started with Modern Arnis around 1969. Bebing and Rudy Lisondra got their black belt already at 11th of Novemer 1964. They were Remy's first Modern Arnis black belts and for sure 5 years earlier, than Remy Jr. STARTED with Modern Arnis. 

This is what I mean, that the history is not correct.
A statement is made and we shall believe that this is the way it is. 
No, this is the way MARPPIO sees it and the way MARPPIO handles it.
Datu equals 6t dan. Yes, within the new MARPPIO system, maybe true, but not with GM Remy Presas.
The Datu tilte was a tilte for achievement and leadership within Modern Arnis. Not connected to any rank. I know definitively 3 of the 6 Datus of GM Remy did not have 6th Dan when they got the title, with one I am not sure and it does not matter who had which rank when we got the Datu title from GM Remy.

Modern Arnis was founded by the Presas family. 
To the best of my knowledge, Remy Presas founded Modern Arnis.
He travelled around the Philippines, learned different styles and fought his way to be a respected Balintawak fighter.
Quote Rosemary Preas article from the family Digest, page 6:
_Everytime he learnes something, she would change it. In fact, everything he learned, she modified. 
_Well with what Arnis qualification?
There may be no doubt, that she was very helpful with the book and the organizing of Modern Arnis, but it was in the end Remy Presas himself, who was teaching and fighting, making a name for himself and for his Modern Arnis.
And in the US he proved clearly, that he could do quite well in Arnis without Rosemary changing everything he had ever learned.
There are some facts, we in the west can check and we find, that the MARPPIO viewpoint are not correct in many quite important regards.
Many facts we can not check, because nobody of us were there at that time.  But knowing, that a lot of the other things that can be checked were not right it leaves a bad taste to all the statements, that cannot be checked.

Regarding the acceptance of ranks and respect:
One student of mine in France, with a 5 years experience of Doublete Rapilon and 2 Modern Arnis seminars with me wrote to Remy Jr. telling him, he likes Modern Arnis. Remy Jr. answer was: invite me. So he did. They made a 2 1/2 day seminar and the french guy got 1st Dan, Lakan Isa.
Next year, 2nd seminar, the guy gets 3rd Dan, Lakan Tatlo. The name of this former student of mine is Anthony Pousset and you can find him on th MARPPIO list of recognized black belts.
My student in France trains Modern Arnis since 11 or 12 year and holds 2nd Dan, Lakan Dalawa. And he is very good. But numerical he is below the person with now 4 Modern Arnis seminars.

Now Remy Jr. is asking for respect.....


When MARPPIO took over modernarnis.com writing : "Meet the real heirs of Modern Arnis" I wrote him a long email asking many questions. I never got an answer.
I wrote it again a few months later and got a reply, that soon the questions will be answered, what never happened.

Why, if he is the inheritor of the system, did he change the names of the techniques, the name of the ranks, the color of the black belts, the titles of the black belts, the uniforms and in the end the techniques?
If he is the inheritor of the system, why is everything else different to the system all the others knew?
And I am a little familiar with the older Modern Arnis from the Philippines, and it is different to that too.

Respect must be earned and cannot be asked for. And this is all Remy Jr. Rosemary and MARPPIO are doing in the family issue of ther FMA Digest: Asking for respect and not working and communication, that this respect is given to him.

And drawing the racist card: only a Filipino can be a Arnis master is ridiculous.
Remy himself NEVER had any attributes like that. 
And other Filipinos neither. When I am in the Philippines (from the 5th of July I will be there again for a month), I am treated with high respect by all the Masters, Senior Masters and Grandmasters like Christino Vasquez, Rene Tongson, Rodel Dagooc, Jerry Dela Cruz , Roland Dantes and others.
They call me Datu. In the Philippines! Not with a smile on theirtr faces but  because they respect the decision, that GM Remy made. Because they respect GM Remy. And they respect work, dedication and loyalty. Things, that are very imortant in the martial arts and filipino martial arts.
And this is also, why these Masters and Grandmasters are respected.

And we, the students of GM Remy Presas, are all very loyal to him, GM Remy Presas sr.

We follow the wishes that he gave us. Each and every one in his own way. Remy Jr. is not in this picture. And the way he and MARPPIO acted and act now, they will never be with most of the Modern Arnis practitioners.

They may be successful in creating a new branch of MARPPIO Modern Arnis and I wish them good luck, but there is and will be no unification under the banner of MARPPIO or Remy Presas Jr.


We try in the *Wordlwide Family of Modern Arnis, WFMA, *to do that. Unify Modern Arnis in a system of brothers and sisters of a family. Nobody is above the other. We are students of Remy and we respect each other, because we come from the same source, even though the organizations and systems now go different ways.
By far not all Modern Arnis groups are in the *WFMA*, but this whole thing ONLY works, when one respects the other and does not try to interfere in the internal affairs of other groups. 
And that nobody says: I am your boss now.

It works with us so far.
Remy Presas jr. and MARPPIO are not part of it.



One last thing: I was the editor for the 50 years of Modern Arnis magazine. A magazine, that honored GM Remy Presas, the founder of Modern Arnis to the 50 years anniversary of Modern Arnis.
I wrote to about 30 individuals, if they want to contribute to the magazine, to get as many facets of his personality and life as possible.
I also wrote to Rosemary, Demetrio, Mary Ann and Remy Jr. (as well as to Ernesto and Roberto with many others)

18 people did answered and an excellent magazine about 50 years of Modern Arnis was the result. Unfortunately without any contribution of MARPPIO and the family.
Remy Jr.'s was the only of the family and MARPPIO that answered. His  brief answer was:  

_I wish I could help you your undertaking but, I am very busy with the workout I don't have time to contribute with your project._

OK, that means he had no wish to contribute to a project, that honors his father and the system, that he claims to be the heir in.


So much about respect.


Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Dan Anderson (Jun 23, 2008)

And now for something completely different, I went to see The Blue Man show last night.  _STUNNING!  _Okay, back to the discussion.

Yours,
Dan


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 24, 2008)

Personally the politics just muddies the water for me.  Makes me happy I have always stayed on the fringe.  The pie is big enough if everyone will just cooperate and be on friendly terms.  I like training with almost everyone I have met even if I am partial to a few specific people.  Bottom line train with who you want and enjoy Modern Arnis. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





It would be nice in the future to have a big get together and have all of the senior people teaching.  Unfortunately, this is not going to happen anytime soon.


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## Dieter (Jun 24, 2008)

If it is an open seminar, I would come and teach, no matter who else would be there as well.
I am open for it. 

Who else?

The problem for this kind of seminar will be: who organizes it, meaning, who is neutral enough, to be accepted from any side as the host of such an event.
And also: if you bring in the heads of the most important Modern Arnis groups, there will be easy 10 people instructing ,
So one of the core questions would be: Are there enough interested participants, to finance such an event. 
There will be a lot of costs to pay like traveling, overnight, food and instructor fees.

And of course there will always be some people, who will not come, when others come.
But these problems are rooted very deep in the American Modern Arnis history and I am not the person, who look through it.
(In Germany there are also one or two people, where I would not teach when they are there. So this is not an American problem). 


Regards

Datu Dieter Knüttel


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## The Game (Jun 24, 2008)

The problems here Datu, is that it's all about money and ego. Some will not attend because they are incapable of putting ego on the side and risk looking lesser than someone else. That's different than just not wanting to deal with someone who is less than honorable. There's a few of those in America too.

But a big "gathering of masters" I would support, if it was affordable and I could get the time off from work to do so.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2008)

Dr. Jerome Barber took exception to some of my words here, and posted his response on his list. As I feel I need to publicly respond I am posting that here, as well as have emailed it to him. What Jerome does is his business, what his associates/affiliates/students/partners/whatever do is theirs.  

To me, this is a small example of what is wrong with Modern Arnis today. Some will agree, some will not, and some will twist and read into this.  Do whatever.

The bridges are burned, the tracks torn up, the roads in shambles.
All that is left to do is poison the well and salt the ground.
Before you do, just remember that it's all connected.

I'm done.


===

Hello Jerome.


> On 06-22-2008, Bob Hubbard, the owner and Founding Member
> of the web forum martialtalk.com wrote the following comment
> in a post "Re: Modern Arnis Mania in FMA Digest":






> Bob Hubbard said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Since I am one of those people that he's alluding to in his post,
> I will make my own comment in rebuttal. In virtually any other case I
> would make my rebuttal statement in the same venue where the original
> statement was posted, however that option is not available to me. Mr.
> ...



You were banned for not being able to get past making everything about Hartman. The history and continual return to that dead horse subject on your own lists shows it was the right choic.





> First and foremost, Mr. Hubbard finds it impossible to understand the
> concept of or believe in independence. He is a follower, a true
> believer type who wants and desperately needs a leader. Therefore
> anyone who is willing and able to stand apart from the group is viewed
> by Mr. Hubbard, with a great deal of suspiciousness and fear.



Your definition of "independent" means "anti-Hartman".  You are incapable of understanding truth in that matter. 





> I separated myself from Professor Remy Presas and the IMAF in 1994.
> ALL of my students were given the options of following my lead, staying
> with the IMAF or working primarily with me and still testing for rank
> with Professor. Each of my students at that time did what they believed
> ...



Yet the same concept is not extended to those who are even remotely connected to Tim Hartman.





> My rank in Modern Arnis is frozen at Lakan Tatlo or 3rd degree Black
> belt. That is not a problem for me and I have declined any and all
> opportunities to join any other IMAF related modern arnis group since
> the death of Professor Presas. I will always be a 3rd degree black-belt
> ...



Then why the continued focusing on such things?





> I've not taken any joy from the FMA Digest articles. I'm not surprised
> by the content and claims, but there is no need for me or my associates
> to be "...cackling with glee over the whole thing in little internet
> holes...". There is nothing to be gained or lost for me and my
> ...



I and others disagree, as the archives of your own list will verify that some in that "little internet hole" do take satisfaction and happiness over the sad state of affairs.
You and I agree on 1 point here. They do have the right to pursue their claims and profit from their efforts.
The emphasis here, is on "Their" efforts.





> When referring to "...small minded and bitter people..." I strongly
> suggest that Mr. Hubbard look closely in his own bathroom mirror, first
> and then at his closest friends in the wmaa.



Considering what I've accomplished in the last decade, and what I still have to do, I doubt that any intelligent individual will deem my mind small. 
Considering the numerous independent FMA people and non-arnis organizations the WMAA has brought into their events these past 8 or so years, I doubt they can be seen as small minded too.





> I NEVER denied Mr. Hubbard an opportunity to participate on the old EA
> forum, when his name came up in several posts. He requested membership
> and it was granted in spite of the fact that he emphatically denied me
> the opportunity to re-join his forum when my name was being raised
> there.



I joined to refute points, and left when I felt I was wasting my time. 
You aren't wanted back on MartialTalk, and even if I did want you there, it's not policy to restore access to banned members.





> I NEVER censored his comments or threatened him with suspension when he
> went on his rants against some the ideas that I support. Nor did I
> suspend or ban Mr. Hubbard from the EA List. He withdrew on his own,
> after he decided to back away from a challenge that he threw down and
> ...



I left as the "minds" on your list are closed, and continued engagement was a waste of my time. There are better things to do in life than argue on the internet.
As to the challenge, I "backed down" after advice from my lawyer and doctors that participating in such things would not be in my best interests.





> Mr. Hubbard has taken in the wmaa propaganda, hook, line and sinker.
> He has never questioned a single position or claim made by the leader of
> the wmaa - his friend. He has NEVER worked out with anyone outside of
> the wmaa. His world consists of the wmaa version every position taken
> ...



I've questioned Tim repeatedly in the past, and will continue to do so in the future. 
I exercise no control over his organization, nor he on mine.
You don't know who I've trained with, or when, or why, so claiming I've never trained or worked out with anyone outside the WMAA is nonsense, and you know it. I remember quite clearly several short instructionals you yourself passed along when we were on better terms and enjoying those afternoon coffee chats. I've worked (abet briefly) with Huk Planas, Ed Planas, Sean Kelly, Frank Trejo, and at least a dozen other non-WMAA instructors, not to mention being on the floor at numerous events and partnering with various attendees.

The WMAA position is not my position, though they do sometimes overlap and are often close, there are also times they do not do either.
Their position is to ignore you. I was advised to avoid you. I met with you. Repeatedly. 
That alone disproves the absoluteness of your statements.
That I choose to not follow your wishes, to not join the "not-wmaa" crowd, bothers you.
Not my problem. 

My training or not training is my concern, no one elses.




> I have my own standards and goals. I believe in smallness, compactness
> and quality instruction. My goal was never to be the big man in the
> arts. I wanted to teach a small number of students at a time, give them
> a lot of one on one and two on one instruction.
> ...



I've never to my recollection said your goals were bad. You are too defensive of what you have done.





> Mr. Hubbard is bitter because he understands that I support and
> highlight my former students and training partners. BTW the word
> "training partners" is one that a number of wmaa people have trouble
> understanding. I've explained on several occasions that a training
> ...



I am not bitter, could care less who you support, highlight, etc.
I'm bitter because you never bought that damn danish you promised to buy me.





> It is truly a very sorry state of affairs when Mr. Hubbard and his
> cohorts can not see the true differences between my program goals and
> those of the wmaa. It is truly a very sorry state of affairs when Mr.
> Hubbard and his cohorts have to resort to name calling and character
> ...



I like that. "Mr. Hubbard and his cohorts" 





> There really isn't any reason for me to go test for anyone. The awards
> and recognitions that I have earned over the course of my career are
> more than enough to justify my chosen path as an independent operator.
> Anyone wishing to test before Marppio or any other organization is free
> ...



I don't think anyone really expects you or yours to do any testing under any other organization, especially MARPPIO.
After all, you have much more to lose by trying and failing, than you do by refusing to try.





> Mr. Hubbard will continue to rant, rave and pontificate, but in the end
> nothing will change because after all is said and done, Mr. Hubbard is
> still minimally skilled in arnis and incapable of meeting the very
> standards that claims other have failed to achieve.



I've heard the same said about you from numerous sources, over time. And, no, that's not from the "WMAA" either.



> Now that I have said what I&#8217;ve said, I&#8217;m done with the entire thing.



You've said that at least a dozen times before. You'll say it a dozen times again.
I, and others, will believe it when your continued commentary on all things Hartman related cease.
But, your list really has no traffic when you do so does it?
That, says everything needed.


Talk about me all you want. I'm glad that my words have touched you, and that I'm in your thoughts these days.
I walked away from a pointless fight a year ago. Others have stood in an empty ring, and continued to throw punches, and sling jabs.
Has any of that made the world a better place? Has it improved the arts any? 
At least, made ya'll feel better about yourselves?
I hope so. I hope that by focusing so much attention, and ire and anger and self hate outwards and projecting it on others that it has at least somehow made you feel better about yourselves.

I've nothing to prove, nothing to feel ashamed of, guilty of, or bad about.
My life, my accomplishments, my path is out there, plain to see.
So, use me as the target, the scapegoat or focal point all you want.
It changes nothing, and really doesn't effect me or mine at all.

Good day Jerome.



> Sincerely,
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
> Founder & Principal Instructor,
> Paradigm Self Defense Arts Group




Bob Hubbard
MartialTalk.com Administrator
----
MartialTalk.com - Friendly discussion about the martial arts
The MartialTalk Family: 
Martialtalk.com Kenpotalk.com FMATalk.com JMATalk.com CMATalk.com KMATalk.com SwordArtsTalk.com Martialpedia.com


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2008)

Dieter said:


> If it is an open seminar, I would come and teach, no matter who else would be there as well.
> I am open for it.
> 
> Who else?
> ...


I'm not able to train right now, however such an event would have what support I could give it.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 26, 2008)

Gentlemen and Bob-

  I think that its best to ignore Barber and his group. All of this here on MT is just validating their existence, which is what they want. They have been *cyber stalking / harassing* me for nearly two decades. If internet laws continue going the way they are some of the members of his group may find themselves in sticky predicaments. Barber repeatedly challenges me and the members of my org to Teach Offs to prove who is better. If I were to agree to participate we all know that the victor would be picked before the event began. Of course this isnt what they want. They want to be able to say Im hiding from them. This is why he doesnt call me on the phone to discuss things. He wants it out in the open for all to see; unless he is beginning to look bad then he wants to talk it off line.

  If he wanted this Teach Off to happen, the first thing he would have to do is to stop insisting that we host it and host it himself. I never got that part *I challenge you to a teach off, but you have to host it. *Did I miss something or is that screwy?  The other thing he would have to do is make it worth our while. In my case I have put a lot of time effort and money to get where I am today. If he wants me to teach at an event then he should do what everyone else does. Pay me for my time. I have taught at several events that he hosted and I have never been paid for my time. With his symposium he had people come as have as Germany to teach and didnt offer to even buy a meal for the instructors. 

  Like I said before, ignore them and worry about what you are doing. Remy once told me Tim, the better you do the louder the dogs will bark. If thats truth I must be doing alright!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 26, 2008)

They are not on this board so let's get back to the origional topic of the interview.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 26, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> They are not on this board so let's get back to the origional topic of the interview.


Like I said, it's best to ignore them. As far as the article goes, there's not much to say. Either you support their position that ALL Rank promotions  MUST go through  the remaining member of the Presas family or you don't. I for one won't be supporting them. As I said before, if Remy wanted his kids to take over they would have been included in that part of the will.


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## bobquinn (Jun 26, 2008)

I hear you Datu Hartman.


Bob Quinn


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 4, 2008)

Looks like rank is part of another major split.
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65161


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