# Would You Force Your Child to Study Karate?



## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Just a stray thought as I have a three year old at home.  I'd like for him to study a martial art when he gets older to gain some of the obvious advantages from the activity.  But should I force him to study it if he doesn't want to?

My sensei by his own words did with his sons.  Of the three, two are still active in karate, but I gather there was some friction along the way with at least 1 of them.  

As a father of an only child, I try to strike a balance between being too strict and being too permissive.  I only want the best for my son.


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## JWLuiza (Mar 4, 2010)

I would want my children to love the martial arts, but I also would want them to follow their own passions. My dad pushed baseball, but it ended up just not being something I liked, but I'm sure he wished I had stuck with it. 

Also, kids who start way early tend to stop in their teens. My friends with kids try to hold off as long as possible before letting their children start.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

Force, really?  No. 

_*To force a man to drop his own mind and to accept your will as a substitute*, with a gun in place of a syllogism, with terror in place of proof, and death as the final argument&#8212;is to attempt to exist in defiance of reality. Reality demands of man that he *act for his own rational interest*; your gun demands of him that he act against it. Reality threatens man with death if he does not act on his rational judgment; you threaten him with death if he does. You place him in a world where the price of his life is the surrender of all the virtues required by life&#8212;and death by a process of gradual destruction is all that you and your system will achieve, when death is made to be the ruling power, the winning argument in a society of men. - Ayn Rand_


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Well, the scenario I pose is what I have a 14 year old at home who plays video games for almost all of his free time.  He might be a bit pudgy and awkward in his own body.  He might have seen little adversity in his brief life since Mom and Dad do everything for him.

Do you drag this guy to class with you?  Do you make him train out in the back yard with you when you're going through your forms?  Do you push him through the difficult times, perhaps even to the point of tears?

You see, I have a feeling my sensei did all those things and probably a lot more with his kids back in the seventies.  They seem to be better for the experience.  Can I do the same in our post-Dr. Spock parental reality today.  Maybe more importantly, should I want to?


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## CoryKS (Mar 4, 2010)

It's about how you present it to him.  If it's something that you really believe that he needs to do, then don't present it as an optional activity.  Young children are pretty good about accepting things on authority.  Where you run into problems is when you offer it to him as a choice and then lean on him to do it when he says no.  Rather than trying to coerce him to volunteer, give him a matter-of-fact "Time for class, go get your uniform on."  Basically, treat it like school - sure, most kids would rather not go but once they accept that they have to do it no matter what, they don't fight it.  Not as much, anyway. 

If it's just something that you would like him to do but don't think it's required, give him the option and be prepared to accept "no" as an answer.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Force, really?  No.
> 
> _*To force a man to drop his own mind and to accept your will as a substitute*, with a gun in place of a syllogism, with terror in place of proof, and death as the final argumentis to attempt to exist in defiance of reality. Reality demands of man that he *act for his own rational interest*; your gun demands of him that he act against it. Reality threatens man with death if he does not act on his rational judgment; you threaten him with death if he does. You place him in a world where the price of his life is the surrender of all the virtues required by lifeand death by a process of gradual destruction is all that you and your system will achieve, when death is made to be the ruling power, the winning argument in a society of men. - Ayn Rand_



Hmm.  Does this apply to a minor in living under your roof, supported financially by you?


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## CoryKS (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Well, the scenario I pose is what I have a 14 year old at home who plays video games for almost all of his free time. He might be a bit pudgy and awkward in his own body. He might have seen little adversity in his brief life since Mom and Dad do everything for him.
> 
> Do you drag this guy to class with you? Do you make him train out in the back yard with you when you're going through your forms? Do you push him through the difficult times, perhaps even to the point of tears?
> 
> You see, I have a feeling my sensei did all those things and probably a lot more with his kids back in the seventies. They seem to be better for the experience. Can I do the same in our post-Dr. Spock parental reality today. Maybe more importantly, should I want to?


 
Fourteen is too old to make a kid do an activity he doesn't want to do.  His heart won't be in it and he won't gain anything from it.  With a smaller child you're not really applying force, just presenting it as something that is done.


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## Blade96 (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Would You Force Your Child to Study Karate?



No. I've not a child, but I've niece. As much as I would like her to study Shotokan when she gets older, (she's only 2 months old!) I firmly believe MA is something that has to come from the heart. something you do because you want to. not because anyone else wants you to.

I talked about that with my sensei/friend (well we are friends) He said he put his 2 daughters and son into it when they were young but they never stayed there. They didnt like it. Its just understood that a lifestyle has to be this because YOU want it to be. and not at the will of someone else. Unfortunately too many people still believe in this.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Hmm.  Does this apply to a minor in living under your roof, supported financially by you?



Yeah, force is force man.  But as stated by other posters, if dad says do something, they should do it, it's not force.  We all had chores growing up and knew what was required of us.  Force on the other had points to someone acting against their own rational judgment of what is right because someone else is doing the pushing.

If you were to remove the word "force" and just say that it's something that's required when you live under my roof it's different.  Because having a home is in the child's interest.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

> I firmly believe MA is something that has to come from the heart. something you do because you want to. not because anyone else wants you to.



I'll place Devil's Advocate.  Surely no one would argue that you shouldn't make your child do his homework, right?  Being literate and having a functional understanding of math and science is valuable.  So then, why is there more of a choice given to the child when it comes to a physical activity like karate?  The strong body and self-defense skills he learns through it are as valuable as the mental growth he receives from schooling.


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## JWLuiza (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Well, the scenario I pose is what I have a 14 year old at home who plays video games for almost all of his free time.  He might be a bit pudgy and awkward in his own body.  He might have seen little adversity in his brief life since Mom and Dad do everything for him.
> 
> Do you drag this guy to class with you?  Do you make him train out in the back yard with you when you're going through your forms?  Do you push him through the difficult times, perhaps even to the point of tears?
> 
> You see, I have a feeling my sensei did all those things and probably a lot more with his kids back in the seventies.  *They seem to be better for the experience. * Can I do the same in our post-Dr. Spock parental reality today.  Maybe more importantly, should I want to?



You don't have a comparison to hold them to, so you don't really know if they are better.

If you're a good enough parent, the scenario above probably won't happen. And if you aren't the kids parent, you can't force it.


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## JWLuiza (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'll place Devil's Advocate.  Surely no one would argue that you shouldn't make your child do his homework, right?  Being literate and having a functional understanding of math and science is valuable.  So then, why is there more of a choice given to the child when it comes to a physical activity like karate?  The strong body and self-defense skills he learns through it are as valuable as the mental growth he receives from schooling.



Sure, you can require you kid to do activity, but what's your goal? That they do the activity or that you share in an experience that you value. It's all in the approach.

Lead by example and this won't come up.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> You don't have a comparison to hold them to, so you don't really know if they are better.
> 
> If you're a good enough parent, the scenario above probably won't happen. And if you aren't the kids parent, you can't force it.



My sensei's sons are better in the sense that they are all fit men, even in their late forties.  Their karate is quite good too.

Do they have that without him forcing them to study when they were younger?  Maybe not.  The point is can only act under the best information that we have at the time.  My teacher thought his sons would benefit from the study, so he made them do it.


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## chaos1551 (Mar 4, 2010)

When it comes to children, it's relative.  Should you force a child to learn manners?  Be respectful?  Well.. sure.  I will force all my children to learn life-important skills.  If we lived in 1000 A.D Japan and I knew martial arts, yes I would force my children to learn.  Since martial arts are not life-important skills nowadays (meaning that without them no one would have a good life) then I will not be forcing them to learn.  The air of freedom has allowed an interest in my martial art to form in my children.  My 3-year-old loves to do warm-ups, get into the horse pose with me and do a few punches.  My 11-year-old has shown an interest in how to punch effectively (for reasons I hope will become apparent).  Even my older kids seem to be taking on a higher level of confidence when I answer simple questions they pose about fighting.  Being all girls, I'm glad my kids show an interest that I doubt they would have if I'd used force.


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## Blade96 (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'll place Devil's Advocate.  Surely no one would argue that you shouldn't make your child do his homework, right?  Being literate and having a functional understanding of math and science is valuable.  So then, why is there more of a choice given to the child when it comes to a physical activity like karate?  The strong body and self-defense skills he learns through it are as valuable as the mental growth he receives from schooling.



Ok, Devil's Advocate 

I really dont know why school is compulsary and physical activity isnt. I agree, its good (the physical activity) and all people should do SOMETHING, even kids.

But I'd like to point out that kids also dont have to be in school if they dont want to (here the age is 16 i think) when they reach a certain age

But i was in that situation. Until 2008 I was just like the hypothetical 14 year old you described. well i was active in my childhood and teens but lost that when i was in my 20's. (didnt help that my parents believed i wouldnt really succeed in anything physical anyways.) But in september 2008 I took up ice skating. Then next september (2009) I started Shotokan. I still ice skate.

Things like just watching an exercize video and bending, just going for walks, etc, doing jumping jacks, didnt appeal to me. What did was playing sports and and as I am an NHL fan, learning to skate I could relate to. and MA - getting interested in an actor who was a MA (his character is Blade thats why my forum name is Blade) and made me want to learn the art and live a physical way of life thats also spiritual that means something. and since skating really is something you have to start as a child if you wanna make something of yourself in, and I never did, I knew I wouldnt succeed in skating. I wanted something I knew I would be good at and succeed in.

Maybe karate wont appeal to your young child. but something else physical will.  

I dont know. I had to think before typing. I really dont know what to say. Except my parents had me in all kinds of stuff when I was a kid and they told me I fought them tooth and nail. I just never had an appreciation for it (most kids wouldnt) Thats another reason why I believe kids should be older when they do stuff. They'll understand it more.


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## blindsage (Mar 4, 2010)

If you want a younger child to train in order to gain the benefits of doing so from a young age, then absolutely yes, you should require it.  It can only benefit them in the long run, if they don't want to do it when they are older (late teens or so), that's fine, they still gained the benefit from it. 

If it's a somewhat older child (like the 14 year old you've mentioned), you can make him go, but you need to be prepared for a more difficult situation.  He probably won't like the idea (at least to start), and will put up resistance, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't go.  The parent should probably sit down and have a well thought out, and very measured  conversation with him about what _WILL_ be happening in terms of him starting to train.  Maybe they give him a choice of training at the school, or with them personally, maybe not depending on his personality.  But either way, if as a parent, they think it's in his best interests, then IMHO, they have an obligation to do it.

My wife and I don't have children yet, but we do plan on requiring all of our children to train from a young age.  It doesn't always have to be in exactly what we train in, but it will have to be in some style and at least until they are in their late teens.


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## JWLuiza (Mar 4, 2010)

blindsage said:


> If you want a younger child to train in order to gain the benefits of doing so from a young age, then absolutely yes, you should require it.  It can only benefit them in the long run, if they don't want to do it when they are older (late teens or so), that's fine, they still gained the benefit from it.
> 
> If it's a somewhat older child (like the 14 year old you've mentioned), you can make him go, but you need to be prepared for a more difficult situation.  He probably won't like the idea (at least to start), and will put up resistance, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't go.  The parent should probably sit down and have a well thought out, and very measured  conversation with him about what _WILL_ be happening in terms of him starting to train.  Maybe they give him a choice of training at the school, or with them personally, maybe not depending on his personality.  But either way, if as a parent, they think it's in his best interests, then IMHO, they have an obligation to do it.
> 
> My wife and I don't have children yet, but we do plan on requiring all of our children to train from a young age.  It doesn't always have to be in exactly what we train in, but it will have to be in some style and at least until they are in their late teens.


Would it have to be a MA? What if your kid found a passion for soccer and wanted to be on a travel team as a 10-11 yo? Let's say they wanted to be olympic or college scholarship level....
I use this as an example of a highly time intensive but great goal for a child to have that may preclude more than superficial MA practice. I went the other way... Quit volleyball to pursue MA.
(I guess that's what Sunday morning drills with Pop is for!  )


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## JWLuiza (Mar 4, 2010)

I have the feeling if you are a parent posting on here, you spend so much time thinking/talking/doing MA, that while you may "require" your kids to train, it'll just be something that happens. Kids love spending time with parents (at a young age).


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## kaizasosei (Mar 4, 2010)

I guess there are various degrees and types of force.  Generally though, i would think that it is not best to force anything on anyone.  
Actually there is a fair bit of force happening with parent/child relationship automatically and i believe that should be a positive guiding force.  
Not a force that tells the other to 'do whatever i want'. 

As a child my dad sortof pushed us to go skiing practically every weekend and much of the holidays. My sis and i were often challenged by the extremity of it all and the cold seemed to affect our little bodies more- we were out there all day whilst other families were having hot chocolate in the cafeterias.

In retrospect i think it was a somewhat pushy of my dad, but very valuable for us too to get out into the nature and learn how to ski well. Now i appreciate it and i basically look for any opportunity to head into the mountains.   

Still it is not my style to be pushy and i think there are always ways of influencing and convincing that use less selfish brute force and solliciting.  Sometimes it may take years, but pushing people often only makes them more against something.


j


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Force, really? No.
> 
> _*To force a man to drop his own mind and to accept your will as a substitute*, with a gun in place of a syllogism, with terror in place of proof, and death as the final argumentis to attempt to exist in defiance of reality. Reality demands of man that he *act for his own rational interest*; your gun demands of him that he act against it. Reality threatens man with death if he does not act on his rational judgment; you threaten him with death if he does. You place him in a world where the price of his life is the surrender of all the virtues required by lifeand death by a process of gradual destruction is all that you and your system will achieve, when death is made to be the ruling power, the winning argument in a society of men. - Ayn Rand_


 We force children to learn how to read, why is self defense an option. What is next, optional table manners?
Sean


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## kaizasosei (Mar 4, 2010)

Convincing someone allows for time to understand fully.  Solliciting pushes on and hustles the target into something without giving them any chance to understand the full scope or refuse.    I think there is a huge difference.  

I suppose one could say that if someone can controll a child perfectly with his/her will and sollicit basically any actions they desire the kid to do, then they would have no problems as parents.  But that is not usually the case because kids are not stupid and if you mess around with their heads too much or be pushy, you're most likely in for some nasty surpises if not simple defiance and rebellion.

Of course, the younger they are the easier it is to push them around in this way.  But there are natural instincts that make someone want to learn how to read and there are kids that love martial arts all on their own.  I never had a parent that told me to do martial arts.  My mom was cool though in buying me my first real sword when i was 13-as well as airguns.


j


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> We force children to learn how to read, why is self defense an option. What is next, optional table manners?
> Sean



Do you really force a child to read or is literacy apart of functioning in a modern society and is required to survive?  Martial arts are not essential, nobody was ever denied a job, denied getting a driver's license, etc because they don't know the martial arts.  It's nice to learn but at best it's a hobby.

There seems to be a gulf between what _force is_ (compelling someone against their own rational self interest) and the way it's being used here as in something one learns to function in society.  Parents teach table manners, they teach the child to read.

Force - physical coercion; violence; or control; constrain (oneself or someone) to do something


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## seasoned (Mar 4, 2010)

Child rearing 101, present many options. Run with what sticks. Kids need to be well rounded in this day and age, some kind of sport, good grades, and some good old fashion soul searching. Forcing karate, no, the only thing I would force, is for them to get off their butts, and not just hang around. I did end up with the whole family in MA at one time, for 12 years. It was all done with encouragement.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> There seems to be a gulf between what _force is_ (compelling someone against their own rational self interest) and the way it's being used here as in something one learns to function in society.  Parents teach table manners, they teach the child to read.



I'm not sure most on this thread use your definition of force.  Right now I force my son to brush his teeth.  If I don't he'll eventually develop cavities.  As he gets older, I imagine I'll force him to go to his room at bedtime and leave the lights off at times.  Or I will force him to do his homework from school even when he would rather play or watch TV.

I don't believe reason is an overriding factor for children.  And as a parent, it's my job to teach my son to use reason and to follow rational self interest in an ethical manner, but until he can do that, I make the decisions for him.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm not sure most on this thread use your definition of force.  Right now I force my son to brush his teeth.  If I don't he'll eventually develop cavities.  As he gets older, I imagine I'll force him to go to his room at bedtime and leave the lights off at times.  Or I will force him to do his homework from school even when he would rather play or watch TV.
> 
> I don't believe reason is an overriding factor for children.  And as a parent, it's my job to teach my son to use reason and to follow rational self interest in an ethical manner, but until he can do that, I make the decisions for him.



Yes, but is that force or is that parenting?  He may not know how to look out for his own rational self interest because he does not yet have the tools, but you do.  

You don't force the child to go to school (it's so he'll learn which is for his own benefit), to have manners (he needs to deal with other people in society), to get his shots (to keep him alive), these are all parts of parenting.  Force presumes one knows what is in their own self interest and is being compelled to act against it, while what you are doing is having him do what is in his own interest because he is not know the full extent of no doing so yet.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Yes, but is that force or is that parenting?  He may not know how to look out for his own rational self interest because he does not yet have the tools, but you do.
> 
> You don't force the child to go to school (it's so he'll learn which is for his own benefit), to have manners (he needs to deal with other people in society), to get his shots (to keep him alive), these are all parts of parenting.  Force presumes one knows what is in their own self interest and is being compelled to act against it, while what you are doing is having him do what is in his own interest because he is not know the full extent of no doing so yet.



Well I can agree with that.  I take it you would 'parent' your child into a karate class?


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## CoryKS (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Yes, but is that force or is that parenting? He may not know how to look out for his own rational self interest because he does not yet have the tools, but you do.
> 
> You don't force the child to go to school (it's so he'll learn which is for his own benefit), to have manners (he needs to deal with other people in society), to get his shots (to keep him alive), these are all parts of parenting. Force presumes one knows what is in their own self interest and is being compelled to act against it, while what you are doing is having him do what is in his own interest because he is not know the full extent of no doing so yet.


 
Thank you, Ms. Rand.  But whether something is in one's self-interest has no bearing on whether they are being forced to participate in it.  Many people, and _especially_ children, do not act in their self-interest.  What makes it force is whether they must participate against their will.  Yes, going to school is for his own benefit, but if he doesn't want to go then he _is_ being forced.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone - No, karate is not a requirement of living in society.  Education is, interpersonal skills are (manners falls under this category), health is.  Knowing how to lay someone out is not, as I said, it's nice to learn, but no necessary.  If one were to couch karate in the area of interpersonal skills then sure, but the same can be said for team sports or boy scouts or chess club, etc.

The question is, what do you want your child to get from karate?  To follow in your footsteps, to grow your own Lyoto?  But as I said before, you are the parent, if you want him to learn then go for it because the child's too young to say no really.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Thank you, Ms. Rand.  But whether something is in one's self-interest has no bearing on whether they are being forced to participate in it.  Many people, and _especially_ children, do not act in their self-interest.  What makes it force is whether they must participate against their will.  Yes, going to school is for his own benefit, but if he doesn't want to go then he _is_ being forced.



Did you just call me Ms?  What the hell is that about?

Either way, as I said before, you as a parent act in the child's interest because they can't.  School included.  But what happens when the 18 year old does not want to go to college and has made that decisions?


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> dancingalone - No, karate is not a requirement of living in society.  Education is, interpersonal skills are (manners falls under this category), health is.  Knowing how to lay someone out is not, as I said, it's nice to learn, but no necessary.  If one were to couch karate in the area of interpersonal skills then sure, but the same can be said for team sports or boy scouts or chess club, etc.
> 
> The question is, what do you want your child to get from karate?  To follow in your footsteps, to grow your own Lyoto?  But as I said before, you are the parent, if you want him to learn then go for it because the child's too young to say no really.



Really, it's quite simple - no moral philosophy needed.  I want my son to learn to live a healthy, non-sedentary lifestyle.  He should be no stranger to exercise.  And he should be able to handle himself physically should someone try to prey upon him.  If that means taking up boxing or karate or even cross-country running, I really don't care.  As a karate-ka myself, I would naturally have a preference for karate since it is something I can help guide him in.


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## CoryKS (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Did you just call me Ms? What the hell is that about?


 
Just meant that it was a very Randian viewpoint.  Don't worry man, I know you're a dude. 



Omar B said:


> Either way, as I said before, you as a parent act in the child's interest because they can't. School included. But what happens when the 18 year old does not want to go to college and has made that decisions?


 
Yeah, you're acting in the child's best interest.  That doesn't mean you're not forcing them.  But there are ways to present it to them, especially with younger kids, so that they embrace it easier.

Oh, and for the 18+ year olds we apparently have the Senate to decide what's best for them.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Really, it's quite simple - no moral philosophy needed.  I want my son to learn to live a healthy, non-sedentary lifestyle.  He should be no stranger to exercise.  And he should be able to handle himself physically should someone try to prey upon him.  If that means taking up boxing or karate or even cross-country running, I really don't care.  As a karate-ka myself, I would naturally have a preference for karate since it is something I can help guide him in.



We all want that for the kids man.  If my father had it his way I would have been a Cricketer or Soccer player, it's what I "had" to do when I was not practicing karate or my guitar.  When I was old enough to decide for myself I quit soccer and cricket, but from the age of 5 I wanted to do karate and I still do now.


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## Omar B (Mar 4, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Just meant that it was a very Randian viewpoint.  Don't worry man, I know you're a dude.
> Yeah, you're acting in the child's best interest.  That doesn't mean you're not forcing them.  But there are ways to present it to them, especially with younger kids, so that they embrace it easier.
> Oh, and for the 18+ year olds we apparently have the Senate to decide what's best for them.



Well I am an objectivist.


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## kaizasosei (Mar 4, 2010)

Another extreme type of attitude is to prohibit the martial arts in hopes of sparking the child's interest.  But i think that is stupid somehow and not valid in the modern age and i don't think a good parent would pull such a sneaky move unless they're one of those that hardly ever see their kids much..  

on the other hand, have you seen the movie Lavitaebella?  In that movie, the guy seriously bs his kid during the war, but it is done very lovingly.  When sent to a concentration camp, he upholds a great farce of being in a giant game that requires all kinds of hard to explain actions.




j


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## JohnASE (Mar 4, 2010)

Semantics aside, I think whether or not you need to "force" your kid to train will depend on the value you perceive in it and his need at the time.  Most parents don't want their kids to learn to thump other kids.  They want them to learn discipline, self worth, work ethic, or any number of other things that will help them deal with non-violent situations.  If you think your kid is not learning these things in other ways and you think he needs to train despite his objections, you'll probably be right to force him.  I'd bet this will happen way before 14 though.

One instructor recently told us that their teenager won't be allowed to drive until he/she achieves a certain rank.  That's the way they chose for the kid to prove that he/she is ready to take on that responsibility.  Sounds reasonable to me.


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## blindsage (Mar 4, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Thank you, Ms. Rand. But whether something is in one's self-interest has no bearing on whether they are being forced to participate in it. Many people, and _especially_ children, do not act in their self-interest. *What makes it force is whether they must participate against their will.* Yes, going to school is for his own benefit, but if he doesn't want to go then he _is_ being forced.


This is the definition of force.  Rational self-interest has nothing to do with it.   If the child doesn't want to do something, the parent _forces_ them to do it anyway- chores, homework, manners, holding hands crossing the street, whatever.


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## blindsage (Mar 4, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> Would it have to be a MA? What if your kid found a passion for soccer and wanted to be on a travel team as a 10-11 yo? Let's say they wanted to be olympic or college scholarship level....
> I use this as an example of a highly time intensive but great goal for a child to have that may preclude more than superficial MA practice. I went the other way... Quit volleyball to pursue MA.
> (I guess that's what Sunday morning drills with Pop is for!  )


There is flexibility in everything, but for me having my children train in MA isn't just about a personal passion, I wouldn't expect them to necessarily pursue it for life, it's about the specific life skills learned through MA training.  It's especially important to me that any daughters I have do this.  But, yes, of course if there is an obvious passion that develops for them in some other endeavor, there will be flexibility in this, to some degree.  But as you talked about in another post, MA is a lifestyle for us, and it will be incorporated into our children's lives as a normal part of what we do from the time they are very young.


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## blindsage (Mar 4, 2010)

kaizasosei said:


> Convincing someone allows for time to understand fully. Solliciting pushes on and hustles the target into something without giving them any chance to understand the full scope or refuse. I think there is a huge difference.
> 
> I suppose one could say that if someone can controll a child perfectly with his/her will and sollicit basically any actions they desire the kid to do, then they would have no problems as parents. But that is not usually the case because kids are not stupid and if you mess around with their heads too much or be pushy, you're most likely in for some nasty surpises if not simple defiance and rebellion.
> 
> ...


You can only try to 'convince' so far with children, and sometimes it is actually detrimental to take that approach.  You have to have a balance between teaching your children how to make choices and have independent ideas while still setting firm healthy boundaries for them so they can have a safe, strong, supportive environment in which to learn and grow.  Parenting requires parenting, not just the feel good part.  Setting proper boundaries is light years away from pushing them around.  Requiring children to do things that are in their best interests, regardless of whether they can understand it fully or not, is a major part of quality parenting.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 4, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Do you really force a child to read or is literacy apart of functioning in a modern society and is required to survive? Martial arts are not essential, nobody was ever denied a job, denied getting a driver's license, etc because they don't know the martial arts. It's nice to learn but at best it's a hobby.
> 
> There seems to be a gulf between what _force is_ (compelling someone against their own rational self interest) and the way it's being used here as in something one learns to function in society. Parents teach table manners, they teach the child to read.
> 
> Force - physical coercion; violence; or control; constrain (oneself or someone) to do something


You have a better chance at getting certain jobs, and in some situations you do need self defense skills to survive. Cops usually suggest, at least, a boxing program for their sons that also want to be cops. Perhaps force is the wrong word, but kids will do what is expected of them. Perhaps you can make a deal such as equal video game time for hours of martial arts study. Its not a crime to restrict video game usage... yet.
Sean


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## searcher (Mar 4, 2010)

Encourage them to try it out=YES.

Force them to do it=NO.

As My Wife andI are both instructors, I am hoping that they will want to when they are old enough, but I would not want to force the issue.   Two if my Instructors did with their kids and it turned out horrible.     Of all the kids from those 2, I am getting one of them to come to my school to train right now.     It may work out in the end, but it is still early in the process.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Just a stray thought as I have a three year old at home. I'd like for him to study a martial art when he gets older to gain some of the obvious advantages from the activity. But should I force him to study it if he doesn't want to?
> 
> My sensei by his own words did with his sons. Of the three, two are still active in karate, but I gather there was some friction along the way with at least 1 of them.
> 
> As a father of an only child, I try to strike a balance between being too strict and being too permissive. I only want the best for my son.


 
IMHO, I think its a bad idea to force kids to train.  I've seen this many times....parent brings kid in for intro lesson, kid has the attention span of a fly, showing obvious disinterest.  I tell the parent that perhaps they should wait, but they want to try anyways.  Kid shows no interest in class, and takes away from the other students learning.  Parent suggests private lessons.  Of course, the same result happens.  Eventualy the parent does what they should've done in the first place....wait until the child has more interest.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'll place Devil's Advocate. Surely no one would argue that you shouldn't make your child do his homework, right? Being literate and having a functional understanding of math and science is valuable. So then, why is there more of a choice given to the child when it comes to a physical activity like karate? The strong body and self-defense skills he learns through it are as valuable as the mental growth he receives from schooling.


 
Here are the differences, IMO:

If the child doesn't go to school, they'll most likely end up in a dead end, min. wage job.  You at the least, need a HS diploma or GED.  The child, if they choose to not engage in the martial arts, or any other sport, isn't going to fail in life.  Yes, I fully understand the benefits of training, but again, the child isn't going to fail in life, if they dont play football, baseball or do (insert any martial art here)


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> We force children to learn how to read, why is self defense an option. What is next, optional table manners?
> Sean


 
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1272442&postcount=42


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Really, it's quite simple - no moral philosophy needed. I want my son to learn to live a healthy, non-sedentary lifestyle. He should be no stranger to exercise. And he should be able to handle himself physically should someone try to prey upon him. If that means taking up boxing or karate or even cross-country running, I really don't care. As a karate-ka myself, I would naturally have a preference for karate since it is something I can help guide him in.


 
And I agree, and kids, especially in todays world, need to exerices, so they dont turn into porkers.  However, forcing them do to something they dont want, vs. helping them find something they do like...well, it should be obvious that the kid will most likely put forth more effort and want to do that activity more often, if its something THEY like, not something YOU like.  If they dont want to do the martial arts, but want to play football, at least they're not sitting in front of the tv and they're being active.

Example:  I've been training in the arts for over 20yrs.  I was training long before I met my wife.  My wife really doesnt have any interest in the arts, but fully supports my training.  I'm not going to force her to learn to defend herself or train for the sake of exercise.  However, 3 times a week, she works out at the gym, walks with the dog.  Thats stuff that SHE likes.  

See the difference?


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## repz (Mar 4, 2010)

Interesting post, me and my girlfriend were arguing about this. I said i want all my kids training in karate, she said thats fine if they want to, and that just struck me wrong, so i replied with, "if they like it or not".

But of course that got me thinking, someone who doesnt like karate will most likely not being good at it, or would stop as soon as he is old enough.

I always reasoned that i would be the type of dad to tell stories to my kids since i did with with my neice (and i did train her in kickboxing). So i'd add stories about karate, stories of martial arts history, make karate fun while their young so they can associate it as something fun to do over it being a repeatetive chore, while i gradually increased the training as they age. 

My cousin has a blackbelt in shotokan, he hated karate. We would be playing in the streets in brooklyn and his dad would grab him and take him to train and he hated it. I definetly dont want that, and I motivated him recently to train in martial arts, and he is seriously thinking about it, but he said no karate... obviously this stems from his upbringing and feeling forced to do it as a kid.


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## Marginal (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Well, the scenario I pose is what I have a 14 year old at home who plays video games for almost all of his free time.  He might be a bit pudgy and awkward in his own body.  He might have seen little adversity in his brief life since Mom and Dad do everything for him.
> 
> Do you drag this guy to class with you?  Do you make him train out in the back yard with you when you're going through your forms?  Do you push him through the difficult times, perhaps even to the point of tears?


Seems like it'd make more sense to ask him it he's interested in Karate lessons before you start whipping him in the backyard.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 5, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Just a stray thought as I have a three year old at home.  I'd like for him to study a martial art when he gets older to gain some of the obvious advantages from the activity.  But should I force him to study it if he doesn't want to?
> 
> My sensei by his own words did with his sons.  Of the three, two are still active in karate, but I gather there was some friction along the way with at least 1 of them.
> 
> As a father of an only child, I try to strike a balance between being too strict and being too permissive.  I only want the best for my son.



I'd say no, don't.

I have 2 daughters.
The oldest (almost 5) is a very emotional / sensitive type of girl who loves hearts, thinks pink is the best color for everything, and loves everything to do with princes and princesses. As soon as she can swim the 25 m (she is taking swimming lessons), she wants to take up ballet. My youngest is more likely to take up MA, and if she wants I will gladly support that too. I don't care what they do. The only rule is they have to engage in some kind of physical activity, be it ballet, rugby (there is a girl rugby team here), martial arts or something else.

People come in different personalities. What is right for one is not automatically right for the other. Forcing MA on them against their wishes would be as wrong as forcing them to become a doctor or forcing them to take over the family business.

I am going to make sure that both of them know how to make a proper fist, and how to place a solid hit on a heavy bag. A couple of basics that everybody should know. That is part of teaching them the basics, just like we teach them the colors, how to ride a bicycle, etc... Things everybody should know. If they want to take it further I will gladly support it, just as I would support a choice for ballet or rugby.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 5, 2010)

repz said:


> Interesting post, me and my girlfriend were arguing about this. I said i want all my kids training in karate, she said thats fine if they want to, and that just struck me wrong, so i replied with, "if they like it or not".
> 
> But of course that got me thinking, someone who doesnt like karate will most likely not being good at it, or would stop as soon as he is old enough.



My brother and I, as well as my sisters were force to take music lessons and learn to play an instrument. I really hated it and got out as soon as I could.

Also if you force someone to take up anything, they will feel miserable for having to do it, will hate every second of it, will not fit in with the rest of the class, and will spoil it for them.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 5, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> We force children to learn how to read, why is self defense an option. What is next, optional table manners?
> Sean



I fully agree with teaching the basics.
I will teach my girls how to make a good fist and land a decent punch on a heavy bag. Some basic escape principles as well. That is part of being a good parent.

However, if they are not interested beyond that, forcing them to do that is trying to force your own interest on someone who has different interests. Kinda like forcing your kids to become a doctor because you are one and think it is the best thing for everyone.

You mention table manners.
Your parents taught you how to use a knife, fork and spoon, and some basic table manners. They did not send you to etiquette school to learn to use every knife, fork and spoon imaginable which are used in complex 12 course dinners with seafood, snails, cheese and other food needing special instruments and different ways of using those. Such places teach you where all the little forks should be placed, where the 7 different glasses should be located and how to do the hundreds of different things that would make an etiquette purist cringe if you did them wrong.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 5, 2010)

I've got two kids and I have pretty much left it up to them in regards to martial arts.  We do a lot of "karate play" where we take some training tools and do some fun things that happen to look a lot like training.  When they are a little older, they will probably want to train with daddy because of that.

The only exception to this rule is firearms.  I did not give my children the choice in that regard.  Since they are in my house, they have to know the rules, know how to be safe, and the basics of shooting.


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## blindsage (Mar 5, 2010)

There's a lot of "I was forced to do 'x' when I was a kid and I hated it," comments, but a lot of people who are the best at what they do are that way because their parents made them do it from a young age. Now, I'm not saying that's necessarily the right approach, but there are all kinds of benefits to learning things as a child that you don't want to, which will give you amazing benefits for the rest of your life. I know a family who forced all three children to learn classical Russian piano their whole childhood. One of them is now an amazing DJ and hip hop producer, another is going into film, and the last is still in high school. They didn't all enjoy learning piano all the time, but they say they have benefitted significantly from it. 

These things aren't just about survival, or about forcing children to do what you want vs. what they want, it's about giving them the best advantages and skills to succeed in life. I don't just want my children in MA, I also will require them to learn an instrument, not so they can be concert performers, but so they can gain the manifest life benefits that come with an understanding of music. I will require them to excel in their education, not just learn to read and write for the same reason. I will strongly encourage them to participate in organized sports, for the same reason. None of these things have to do with strict survival skills or with pushing them into _my _interests. They all have to do with giving my children the best experiences and skills to be able to have the richest, most productive lives I am able to. They may not always like or appreciate it at the time, but the job of a parent isn't to conform to the will of a 5 yr old, it's to raise them well. 

All that being said, it's not about being the Gestapo with your children. There has to be loving, compassionate communication constantly and a strong, engaged relationship from a young age. There has to be a balance. There is room for age appropriate consultation on some issues, and they do need some room to learn how to make decision for themselves, and learn how to have a strong, independent personality (IMHO). But these things do not preclude engaging them in required activities that will teach them skills and give them experiences that will benefit them significantly throughout their lives.

Balance, balance, balance. There has to be both compassionate understanding and firm boundaries. Most of us lean too far one way or the other. And take the poor example of our parents (including mine) to justify extremes in the way we raise our own children.


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## dancingalone (Mar 5, 2010)

You wrote the post of the thread in my opinion, blindsage.  Thanks for saying what I lacked the eloquence to do so myself.


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## CoryKS (Mar 5, 2010)

Archie Manning's kids didn't just coincidentally love football.


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## Stac3y (Mar 5, 2010)

I wouldn't force my kids to study karate. I do, however, force them to go to class when they whine about it--once they start a session (sessions are about 3 months long) they are required to finish it. My younger son has trouble with transitions (leaving one place to go to another, stopping or starting an activity); he has since he was tiny. So getting him out of the house to go to class can be difficult, but once he's in the car, he's happy as a lark. He is getting better, with consistent and constant work from me and his dad.


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## Maiden_Ante (Mar 11, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Well, the scenario I pose is what I have a 14 year old at home who plays video games for almost all of his free time.  He might be a bit pudgy and awkward in his own body.  He might have seen little adversity in his brief life since Mom and Dad do everything for him.




I'm soon 18, and started when I was 16. I've never been a sports person but a book-reader. You should take him to Karate class, and if he's lazy then drag him there - personally I really feel Karate has given me better knowledge of my body and it's limits. It rewarding to say the least, and Karate is good in the way that anyone can do it, at any age, and not have to feel any pressure since it's such an individual activity.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 11, 2010)

The other day, my children approached me and asked me if I would start teaching them karate.  I reminded them that last time I had class for them, they lost interest and wanted to do other things.  They said they wanted to try it again, so I obliged.  Now, every Wednesday after school, we will be having a karate class at our house.  If they do well and stick with it, I told them they can invite their friends.  We'll see how it goes and we'll see how it grows.


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## Haze (Mar 12, 2010)

A simple No.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 12, 2010)

I have no children yet, but this subject has came up with my wife before.  I will enroll my future children in my classes, just as they have to go to school to learn, they will go to class to learn martial science.  I firmly believe that it offers much more than just the physical aspect.  All of my students are honor roll students, and many of them were not prior to studying martial arts.  

When they are in High School, they are getting closer to making their own decisions on the matter, and that is a different topic altogether.  But by then, they will probably be hooked 

I started studying Moo Duk Kwan TKD at the age of 5.  It took me 7 years to earn my black belt, and the first few years the only thing I thought I was really learning how to do was push-ups.  I was the one who begged my parents to enroll me in classes to begin with, and it was a valuable lesson to "finish what you start."  

I will always be thankful that my parents didn't let me quit until I was a black belt.  For me, then I was hooked, 24 years later I am now teaching my own students.. .


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## dortiz (Mar 13, 2010)

"As a father of an only child, I try to strike a balance between being too strict and being too permissive. I only want the best for my son."

I put a white belt on and took my 5 yeard old son to a school and did the program with him. It was fun to go back through the basics and do it as partners in training versus do as I say  : )


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## DavidCC (Mar 15, 2010)

Would you let yuor sone not eat his vegetables if he didn't want to?  or take medicine or go to bed at a reasonable time?


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## angrywhitepajamas (Jul 15, 2010)

I would probably not force my child to train in karate or Ma.  My children would be aware of the option and it would be nice they want to train, but not necessary.


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## Thesemindz (Jul 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Just a stray thought as I have a three year old at home. I'd like for him to study a martial art when he gets older to gain some of the obvious advantages from the activity. But should I force him to study it if he doesn't want to?
> 
> My sensei by his own words did with his sons. Of the three, two are still active in karate, but I gather there was some friction along the way with at least 1 of them.
> 
> As a father of an only child, I try to strike a balance between being too strict and being too permissive. I only want the best for my son.


 
I don't think it's ever right to force another human being to obey your commands against their will. 

I love martial arts. I encourage everyone, everywhere, all the time to practice martial arts, and offer to teach everyone I know. I think martial arts is one of the greatest things mankind has ever created.

I'm sure I will annoy my children very much by constantly bringing up the subject. I'm sure I annoy my wife now. I try not to be too bad about it. I _will _go out of my way to impart some basic self defense information to my children. Just like I'll tell them how to duck and cover, and what to do if there's a fire. 

But force? Never. I don't have the right.


-Rob


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## Bruno@MT (Jul 16, 2010)

Thesemindz said:


> I don't think it's ever right to force another human being to obey your commands against their will.
> -Rob



Noble thoughts, but the reality requires different. First of all, children lack the required experience and skills to make informed decisions. They need their parents to do that for them / with them. If they want to eat only candy floss, it is up to you to make them eat more healthy things. If they misbehave it is up to you to punish them. If they don't want to take their medicine, it is up to you to make them take it. Kids cannot make many of those decisions for themselves in a rational way.They need parents to get them to the point where they are capable enough to take care of themselves.

And second, you also need to force adults to do things. At least, you have to in any society that actually has a shot at existing. Paying taxes for one thing (because without taxes, countries cannot exist. But even if you were to argue about taxes in favor of some hypothetical model, let's look at law enforcement. How can you lock up criminals if you have absolutely no means to force them to stay inside? How do you deal with thieves, pedophiles and murderers if you are not allowed to force their punishment on them?


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## Gorilla (Jul 30, 2010)

This has been my experience.  I wanted my daughter to do ballet and gymnastics.  She chose soccer.  I wanted my son to play baseball and basketball.  He chose Martial Arts and Football.  I wanted my daughter to do martial arts after her brother got in involved she refused.  After 4 years she approached us to our shock and stated she wanted to do martial arts.  My kids have never done what I wanted them to do in regards to sports.  My only requirement is that they participated in some sort of sporting activity.  I think that you should allow him to pick a sporting activity that he likes and then he should do it.  You should only require that he does something.  Video games are not an option.


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