# A Boxer Style Hook



## rockky (May 8, 2007)

I'm wondering why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo. Any thoughts? It's been used for knockouts. Could it be classified as a vertical inward punch?


----------



## IWishToLearn (May 8, 2007)

I'm thinking it's present in some interpretations of Ed Parker's Kenpo, but I know of two (one being the IKCA, my organization) that don't teach it. SGM Sullivan's theory is that the hook punch has too high a propensity for being blocked - the arm is used in a specific configuration that allows for greater ease in being blocked, that is.


----------



## Blindside (May 8, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> I'm thinking it's present in some interpretations of Ed Parker's Kenpo, but I know of two (one being the IKCA, my organization) that don't teach it. SGM Sullivan's theory is that the hook punch has too high a propensity for being blocked - the arm is used in a specific configuration that allows for greater ease in being blocked, that is.


 
More so than a forehand or backhand handsword???  I don't think I buy that argument.  I use hooks to the body, open hand attacks to the head since I broke my hand (with a hook) on one of my training partner's head.

Lamont


----------



## mikjf (May 8, 2007)

Hi Rockky.. Perhaps the school where you train doesn't teach it.... but the hook punch is a basic taught in the American Kenpo curriculum. Great deceptive punch when used correctly...and could add awareness to proper execution of your extended outward blocks as well.  Best of Luck.


----------



## JamesB (May 8, 2007)

well we've got techniques to provide a defence against the hook punch, stands to reason that you need to train this punch in order to understand how the technique works...


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

rockky said:


> I'm wondering why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo. Any thoughts? It's been used for knockouts. Could it be classified as a vertical inward punch?


 
Yes we do..."There are 7 major methods of executing strikes. An 8th categorey consists of specialized methods that deserves a division of its own.  The seven major divisions of strikes are methods of, (1) thrusting, (2) whipping, (3). *hooking,* (4) roundhousing, (5) slicing (6) hammmering (7) clawing."  This is an excerp from Infinite insights book 3 page 76.


----------



## bushidomartialarts (May 8, 2007)

I've not seen a hook punch in any of the techniques or katas, though it can be inserted into many.  

I have noticed that many kenpo schools also have a muay thai or boxing program, so you can learn your hooks and then apply them as needed.


----------



## arnisador (May 8, 2007)

IWishToLearn said:


> SGM Sullivan's theory is that the hook punch has too high a propensity for being blocked - the arm is used in a specific configuration that allows for greater ease in being blocked, that is.



Well, if a non-Kenpoist can jump in here...the thing is, it can be very hard to pick up that it's a hook vs. a cross (rear-hand hook) or to see it coming from a blind side (front-hand hook). So, before blocking it one must know it's there! That's the big problem with the hook...it can be very deceptive.

That having been side, while I don't find it easy to block per se at full speed because it's hard to pick up on (front hand especially), it isn't so bad to cover it and then work in to a clinch. I don't throw it myself because the body mechanics just don't work so well for me--it's fine for others, I just don't like it--and when I'm in a situation where it might be needed I usually substitute an open-hand hooking slap, which requires less bend of the arm and, for me, more comfortable footwork as I don't come around quite so far with it.

Everyone needs a jab (construed broadly) and a cross (ditto), I believe, but the hook is optional...a good option, but optional.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 8, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> *I've not seen a hook punch in any of the techniques* or katas, though it can be inserted into many.
> 
> I have noticed that many kenpo schools also have a muay thai or boxing program, so you can learn your hooks and then apply them as needed.


 
Darting Mace Extension, Menacing Twirl Extension off of the top of my head....


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 8, 2007)

rockky said:


> I'm wondering why *we* don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo. Any thoughts? It's been used for knockouts. Could it be classified as a vertical inward punch?


 
We do.


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

bushidomartialarts said:


> I've not seen a hook punch in any of the techniques or katas, though it can be inserted into many.
> 
> I have noticed that many kenpo schools also have a muay thai or boxing program, so you can learn your hooks and then apply them as needed.


 
Triggered salute has an uppercut and so does five swords if you do it that way.  Hooks are after the apex of the circle.  Theses are vertical examples to the body.   The forms have hooking movements in many places.


----------



## JamesB (May 8, 2007)

There is some variation in the exact weapon used, but how about:

Leaping Crane
Tripping Arrow
Blinding Sacrifice (the sandwich part)

I'm sure there's lots more extensions also, KenpoJujisu3 gave a good example already, so how about adding 'Detour from Doom' finish-off into the mix as well?

OTOH


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

JamesB said:


> There is some variation in the exact weapon used, but how about:
> 
> Leaping Crane
> Tripping Arrow
> ...


Blinding Sacrifice... Double hooks to the kidneys after clearing the arms.  A hook is a hook, although boxers don't use a hook this way.  Who wants to emulate a boxer anyway?  Emulate their money into my account- yes me very happy then.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

arnisador said:


> Well, if a non-Kenpoist can jump in here...the thing is, it can be very hard to pick up that it's a hook vs. a cross (rear-hand hook) or to see it coming from a blind side (front-hand hook). So, before blocking it one must know it's there! That's the big problem with the hook...it can be very deceptive.



Yup, esspecially when you got mixed leads (orthodox vs southpaw) the lead hook becomes a very important tool. Rear hand hooks are less common though, unless you can get really tight.

But I'll be honest, most people that don't box and think they are throwing a boxing style hook tend to butcher it.  So I can see why some people might think it has little use.


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

For people who study American Kenpo all angles and paths are applicable.  For me I want to have the hook come into play after the person has been set up.  This will help to avoid a clinch and have myself put into anothers area of expertise.  I would have to say there is a rule of thumb reguarding hooks- When the hands disappear from your view it is coming.  Many hours of slow mo freestyle will train this particular type of awareness.


----------



## JamesB (May 8, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> For people who study American Kenpo all angles and paths are applicable. For me I want to have the hook come into play after the person has been set up. This will help to avoid a clinch and have myself put into anothers area of expertise. I would have to say there is a rule of thumb reguarding hooks- When the hands disappear from your view it is coming. Many hours of slow mo freestyle will train this particular type of awareness.


 
I think if you apply the universal pattern to this kind of thing then I'd definitely agree. I'm interested what you describe as 'the hands disappearing' - you're referring to your opponent's hands, right? I'm imagining this as more a peripheral awareness, right? One moment you'd have a feeling for where your opponent's arms/hands were, the next moment this feeling would be gone, and that's the time you know something's coming in from your flank? Would it be too late by then to do anything about it?


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

JamesB said:


> I think if you apply the universal pattern to this kind of thing then I'd definitely agree. I'm interested what you describe as 'the hands disappearing' - you're referring to your opponent's hands, right? I'm imagining this as more a peripheral awareness, right? One moment you'd have a feeling for where your opponent's arms/hands were, the next moment this feeling would be gone, and that's the time you know something's coming in from your flank? Would it be too late by then to do anything about it?


Yes the opponents hands.  A direct reference to the nine planes found within the U pattern.  It happens in an instant, when the opponents hands disappear you must take action.  Part sense, part visual (as in set ups and postion recognition) and feel process.  It is a part of playing the chess game of combat.  In order to use a hook defend against it and know as much of the process as possible.  That is a theory.  Theory must be trained over and over.

It is too late.  Quite frequently without a lot of traing in hooks they land, are powerful and deceptive.  If the weapon is compacted and you are using fusion the words "suffer greatly" come to mind.  Lateness is exactly when an action doesn't  meet another action. Either move in attacking or get a hand up and when the blow lands strike back.    It is  a bit more detailed than this but also simple if you follow basic AK principles.   

Prolly this is a good place to redifine "in order to beet action you must meet action"   I can't stress enough the value of training this a thousand times slow.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 8, 2007)

ChadWarner said:


> Yes the opponents hands. A direct reference to the nine planes found within the U pattern. It happens in an instant, when the opponents hands disappear you must take action. Part sense, part visual (as in set ups and postion recognition) and feel process. It is a part of playing the chess game of combat. In order to use a hook defend against it and know as much of the process as possible. That is a theory. Theory must be trained over and over.
> 
> It is too late. Quite frequently without a lot of traing in hooks they land, are powerful and deceptive. *If the weapon is compacted and you are using fusion the words "suffer greatly" come to mind.* Lateness is exactly when an action doesn't meet another action. Either move in attacking or get a hand up and when the blow lands strike back. It is a bit more detailed than this but also simple if you follow basic AK principles.
> 
> Prolly this is a good place to redifine "in order to beet action you must meet action" I can't stress enough the value of training this a thousand times slow.


 
:rofl:


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

The hand should not dissappear from view, people that know how to hook will not punch wide like that, everything will be kept tight.


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> The hand should not dissappear from view, people that know how to hook will not punch wide like that, everything will be kept tight.


Many angles and many versions of hooking.  The correct way is the one that lands.  I say this because of the many ambiguous people out there that don't use obvious paths.  You must remember faints, baiting and the like that experienced combatants may use.  Getting clipped in the temple tip of the jaw or maxilary hinge buy something not seen only increases  the potential for damage.  It doesn't take much for the hands to disappear if you are not paying attention to them along with everything else.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

"Land without expossing yourself"

Thats a better goal, throwing wide hooks works once and a while, but more often it gives the other guy a hole to attack.


----------



## ChadWarner (May 8, 2007)

It depends on where you position yourself and if you have used "ring generalship"  to benefit yourself in the best possible way to insure the blow to land.   When you are on offense somewhere is exposed.  If you close yourself off to anything you may well be creating a weakness in your game.  A serious weakness in the striking arena is not knowing where the opponents  hands and feet are in relation to yourself.  If one becomes fixated on say the feet the hands disappear.   Realize there are many layers to this- One answer will not leave you best prepared.


----------



## Doc (May 8, 2007)

JamesB said:


> well we've got techniques to provide a defence against the hook punch, stands to reason that you need to train this punch in order to understand how the technique works...



Of course you do. Chad is correct. The term "Hook" is a misnomer applied out of context as I was taught. The hook is really that elusive "horizontal" punch that everyone speaks of, whose execution is essentially effective when its parallel to the torso on the horizontal plane. On the vertical plane it is a true upper-cut and an extension of the forward inverted horizontal punch. Most characterize the upper-cut incorrectly. Upper-cuts do go UP not forward. This punch is taught in the basics from the beginning the way i was taught, and even in the commercial curriculum, it can be found sitting quietly at the end of Long Form One.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> Of course you do. Chad is correct. The term "Hook" is a misnomer applied out of context as I was taught. The hook is really that elusive "horizontal" punch that everyone speaks of, whose execution is essentially effective when its parallel to the torso on the horizontal plane.



No, a hook is a "hook" because it hooks back, it does not travel horizontally, but in a hook shape.



> On the vertical plane it is a true upper-cut and an extension of the forward inverted horizontal punch. Most characterize the upper-cut incorrectly. Upper-cuts do go UP not forward.



No again, uppercuts only go up if the target calls for it.  Most often the angle is at a upward angle, but not vertical.  That would make the idea of a uppercut to the body impossible as it would become a grazing blow, not a solid hit.


----------



## Doc (May 8, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> No, a hook is a "hook" because it hooks back, it does not travel horizontally, but in a hook shape.


This is a predominately Ed Parker Kenpo perspective, and the information is presented as he taught me. A "hook" in anatomical terms is defined by the fact that it travels on the downward side of the apex of the arc or circle relative to the radius intersection of the shoulder joint. Your simplistic explanation is almost a western boxing in description, and as such in inapprpropriate in this context.


> No again, uppercuts only go up if the target calls for it.  Most often the angle is at a upward angle, but not vertical.


I suggest your understanding is considerably flawed, because an "upward angle" regardless of angle IS on a vertical plane sir.


> That would make the idea of a uppercut to the body impossible as it would become a grazing blow, not a solid hit.


That is the point of my commment sir. An uppercut does travel upward and strikes only the target available based on posture. Clearly your understanding is from a different perspective that probably utilizes different terminology in your training. From your perspective I stand corrected, however if you want to talk Kenpo, you need to grasp some different principles and terms for the purposes of this discussion.


----------



## JamesB (May 8, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> No, a hook is a "hook" because it hooks back, it does not travel horizontally, but in a hook shape.


 
But that's just what you were taught, right? You'd have to be nose-to-nose with someone to apply a 'hook' as you describe, assuming the target was the side of the head....which is not necessarily the case all the time.



Andrew Green said:


> No again, uppercuts only go up if the target calls for it. Most often the angle is at a upward angle, but not vertical. That would make the idea of a uppercut to the body impossible as it would become a grazing blow, not a solid hit.


 
you may not realise it, but are agreeing with Doc when you say upper-cuts go 'up'.....but I'd say that uppercuts are classified more because of the mechanisms involved rather than the target they are hitting..


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> From your perspective I stand corrected, however if you want to talk Kenpo, you need to grasp some different principles and terms for the purposes of this discussion.





As this topic is on a "boxing style hook" I might suggest the same to you.  If you want to look at a boxing style hook, do you not think that it would be useful to understand the mechanics of it, and the concepts that are relevant to it in relation to boxing?  That is why I joined this discussion, to try and give a perspective outside of Kenpo, from someone that does this in a boxing style.

Now, suppose we started a discussion in the MMA forum over some kenpo technique, and butchered its description and application from a kenpo perspective, but where more or less correct from a MMA perspective.  Now I might appreciate someone coming in and explaining the kenpo technique from a kenpo perspective.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

JamesB said:


> But that's just what you were taught, right? You'd have to be nose-to-nose with someone to apply a 'hook' as you describe, assuming the target was the side of the head....which is not necessarily the case all the time.


 

Nope, its a close range hit, but not that close.


----------



## Doc (May 8, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> As this topic is on a "boxing style hook" I might suggest the same to you.  If you want to look at a boxing style hook, do you not think that it would be useful to understand the mechanics of it, and the concepts that are relevant to it in relation to boxing?  That is why I joined this discussion, to try and give a perspective outside of Kenpo, from someone that does this in a boxing style.
> 
> Now, suppose we started a discussion in the MMA forum over some kenpo technique, and butchered its description and application from a kenpo perspective, but where more or less correct from a MMA perspective.  Now I might appreciate someone coming in and explaining the kenpo technique from a kenpo perspective.


I appreciate your passion, but to come in and assume you're the only one that understands boxing would be erroneous. To flat state "No you're wrong" to someone who was boxing before you were born, puts things into a negative perspective. A request for clarification (which is how the kenpo people do it), would have served you better, and perhaps brought you some knowledge. I know what and how a boxing hook works both theorectically and in actuality, having done some time in Golden Glove Camps, and rolled around on the floor with a few well-known grapplers as well. 

I believe the term was used here in this discussion because there are mis interpretations of the "hook" in Kenpo, and the poster I believe wanted to lay a base for the discussion. I don't believe he was mixing boxing with kenpo, but making a common description everyone could relate to.

Nevertheless this is still a Kenpo Forum, and while I appreciate your input, just because this is American Kenpo, please don't assume we're all a bunch of inexperienced people who have never boxed or grappled. I guarantee you there are people here who have done both AND Kenpo quite successfully like myself and my teacher, long before you came over to enlighten us. Now I will leave you to Mr. Hawkins and others if you wish to continue the discussion, and how it relates to KENPO because these people have done all three as well. You may or may not be accomplished as a boxer or grappler, but you should ask questions about Kenpo instead of assuming you know what we mean in discussion.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

Doc said:


> To flat state "No you're wrong" to someone who was boxing before you were born, puts things into a negative perspective.



Countless people have been doing things for a long time, it doesn't mean they understand them.  Ashida Kim has been doingin Ninjitsu for a long time, yet his name does not hold much weight in that field.  The "I've been doing it before you where born" argument is pure logical fallacy.



> A request for clarification (which is how the kenpo people do it), would have served you better, and perhaps brought you some knowledge. I know what and how a boxing hook works both theorectically and in actuality, having done some time in Golden Glove Camps, and rolled around on the floor with a few well-known grapplers as well.



Again, logical fallacy.  I've trained with people that where really good at styles that I don't do as well, doesn't make me understand the style.



> I believe the term was used here in this discussion because there are mis interpretations of the "hook" in Kenpo, and the poster I believe wanted to lay a base for the discussion. I don't believe he was mixing boxing with kenpo, but making a common description everyone could relate to.



He asked about a "Boxing style hook", silly me, I thought he was looking at a hook in the way a boxer might through it, and what a boxer might mean when saying it.



> Nevertheless this is still a Kenpo Forum,



Yes, and I restate my previous piece, if it was a discussion in the MMA section regarding a kenpo technique, and it was being misunderstood, would you or some other kenpo practitioner not step in and give a kenpo perspective on the hows and whys of it?



> but you should ask questions about Kenpo instead of assuming you know what we mean in discussion.




Sorry Doc, but remember what is going on.  It's a discussion about a boxing technique in Kenpo.  I have asked questions about kenpo in the past when I had one.  I admit to not knowing much about the art.  Yet boxing, that I know a little something about, so will give my perspective in a discussion about how a technique from it relates to kenpo.

This is a mixed style discussion board, not a pure kenpo board.  Part of what makes these boards great is just that, the ability to discuss different concepts with people of different backgrounds.  We can take a boxing technique, and look at how it relates to kenpo, having both kenpo people and boxing people involved, or a karate technique in relation to TKD, or TKD to Jujitsu.  

And it is discussion on technical merits that matter, seeing different perspectives, different ways of thinking.  We don't have to agree, but we can still learn about each others styles.  Appeals to authority, appeals to tradition and other logical fallacies have no place in such a discussion.  They are what create infighting, bickering and name calling.  Everyone claims there background wins, and there "masters" where right and everyone ends up just stomping there feet and going home mad.  

I am certainly interested in your opinions on how things are done, I might disagree, but that is ok.  I am open to outside ideas, and regardless of whether they suit me or not I am interested in what others do and think.  

Now if you, or anyone would like to continue discussing the technical merits of a boxing style hook, I am certainly interested, and will do whatever I can to try and provide my take on it.  But if you want to sit in your kenpo box and not look out of it, thats fine too.  Ignore me, and I will do the same for you.  But I have no interest in playing a game of who has the best master and who trained with who and when.  That never leads to anything productive in my mind.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 8, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> The hand should not dissappear from view, people that know how to hook will not punch wide like that, everything will be kept tight.


 
Funny.  When I was taught kickboxing a good hook was taught to be thrown from outside the person's peripheral vision zone to ensure a "blind hit".  This angle had a two-fold purpose. 1) it made the hook harder to defend and 2) It ensured that the opponent didn't tense up to absorb the shock and prevent his jaw and neck from "rattling" which causes a KO.  Also the hands dissappearing DOES NOT indicate a wide hook.  It indicates that person throwing the hook had the proper body angle relative to the opponnent.  In other words good footwork and timing.  Also all hooks in boxing do not "hook back".  Many are like straight punches on a horizontal plane going outside in.  The reason being is that typically the blow is to knock the jaw sideways for a knockout.  A "hook back" doesn't have the proper angle for this unless the opponent misses and the hooker has sidestepped.  A "hook back" will be more of a glancing blow than the flush "horizontal sidewards hook" Also a "hook back" draws the head in which facilitates a clinch and kills the follow up combo.  This is a very basic no-no in boxing and kickboxing.  The head is to always (99.9% of the time) be knocked down, away or across to keep it in the "power zone" for follow up blows.  The head is NEVER to be brought in because the hands are the only weapons allowed and need a certain range to operate.  This is boxing and kickboxing 101.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

I agree... mostly.  You're talking body angles to get out of view, not the punch itself, and then absolutely, but the punch does not go wide to make it dissappear, it stays tight and you get your body angled.  And while the hook does hook back, it's point of impact is before that (unless of course you are using it to grab the guys head... but not in boxing)


----------



## kenpoworks (May 8, 2007)

Hey Doc, Andy,
I teach "a Boxers" hook to eveyone who trains with me (Kenpo) a'la "look at the watch, put the cigarette out" school of thought, basically because it is a great punch and to show how in -effective the list techniques can be against it! 
Richie M


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 8, 2007)

Andrew has made some excellent points and most people that throw a boxing style hook will keep it as tight as possible.  They will move their body to the outside or inside to approach at an advantageous angle.  Sure sometimes they open up but generally that is when a fighter is either tired or has already injured the other person or if the angle requires it.  However, generally in training it is important to keep it tight as this will help in the moment.  Just some of my thoughts on the matter.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 8, 2007)

For reference, I found this:

[yt]rh6qMqFShjY[/yt]

This is Muay Thai, but the base mechanics are the same.  Generally there is a bit of a dip into it and more power from driving off the lead leg into the punch then is shown there, but notice that it is kept tight, hooks back after the hit and that the power comes from the legs and the body, the arm has nothing to do with the power on a hook.

Here's another one that illustrates that more, but is shown doing a shovel hook, same sort of mechanics though:

[yt]F256qCZtzAc[/yt]

Should give a good base point to work off of to discuss the technique


----------



## Doc (May 8, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Also all hooks in boxing do not "hook back".  Many are like straight punches on a horizontal plane going outside in.  The reason being is that typically the blow is to knock the jaw sideways for a knockout.


Thus the horizontal punch in Kenpo. Same thing different description.


----------



## JamesB (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> but notice that it is kept tight, hooks back after the hit and that the power comes from the legs and the body, the arm has nothing to do with the power on a hook


so the hook occurs after the fist lands? the fist hits perpendicular in that case, its a horizontal punch in kenpo terms, the hooking is just a way to return to guard.And the arm has a great deal to do with the power of any punch.


----------



## JamesB (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Countless people have been doing things for a long time, it doesn't mean they understand them. Ashida Kim has been doingin Ninjitsu for a long time, yet his name does not hold much weight in that field. The "I've been doing it before you where born" argument is pure logical fallacy.


 
but an equally large amount of people have been training a long time and *do* know what they are talking about. How incredibly arrogant of you to suggest otherwise, without knowing anything about the people you are insulting.



Andrew Green said:


> He asked about a "Boxing style hook", silly me, I thought he was looking at a hook in the way a boxer might through it, and what a boxer might mean when saying it.


 


Andrew Green said:


> Yes, and I restate my previous piece, if it was a discussion in the MMA section regarding a kenpo technique, and it was being misunderstood, would you or some other kenpo practitioner not step in and give a kenpo perspective on the hows and whys of it?


 
but its not an MMA section, its the kenpo section. If the O.P. wanted to discuss a boxer's hook in the context of boxing, he would have taken his question to a boxing forum. But he specifically took it here.



Andrew Green said:


> Sorry Doc, but remember what is going on. It's a discussion about a boxing technique in Kenpo. I have asked questions about kenpo in the past when I had one. I admit to not knowing much about the art. Yet boxing, that I know a little something about, so will give my perspective in a discussion about how a technique from it relates to kenpo.


 
You might remember what's going on, but you give no indication that you understand the context. This is the kenpo forum, with people that speak 'kenpo'. By all means provide your own insights, however I would respectively suggest that it is possible to do so without such a confrontational attitude.



Andrew Green said:


> I am certainly interested in your opinions on how things are done, I might disagree, but that is ok. I am open to outside ideas, and regardless of whether they suit me or not I am interested in what others do and think.


 
you may be unaware, but this is certainly not how you are coming across in your postings.



Andrew Green said:


> Now if you, or anyone would like to continue discussing the technical merits of a boxing style hook, I am certainly interested, and will do whatever I can to try and provide my take on it. But if you want to sit in your kenpo box and not look out of it, thats fine too. Ignore me, and I will do the same for you. But I have no interest in playing a game of who has the best master and who trained with who and when. That never leads to anything productive in my mind.


 
your 'interest' so far has been to flatly state 'no' to anyone else's opinion, and to then become aggressive when they politely suggest that you consider other people's points of view. Not really an adult discussion is it? Being a moderator doesn't give you the right to be rude to everybody...


----------



## Doc (May 9, 2007)

To elaborate further James & James, the Kenpo "hook," also known as a horizontal punch derives it name and definition from the fact that it travels on the downward side of the pivot point apex, (in this case on a horizontal plane) but does not necessarily "hook" as a boxer might define it. It may travel parallel with the torso, but it moves backwards from the shoulder joint circle apex, striking with the palm down with the two large knuckles, and that is why it meets the definition of a "hook." Its power is generated through a marrying of the entire body, including the arm upon execution.

Me thinks someone needs to get the so-called moderators under control on these two forums. That's where most of the discourse comes from lately. Most of us play nice here without their input, and we appear to be over-moderated. Why is someone NOT in Kenpo moderating a subject they know nothing about?


----------



## Blindside (May 9, 2007)

Doc said:


> Me thinks someone needs to get the so-called moderators under control on these two forums. That's where most of the discourse comes from lately. Most of us play nice here without their input, and we appear to be over-moderated. Why is someone NOT in Kenpo moderating a subject they know nothing about?


 
Andrew isn't posting as a Moderator but as a member of MartialTalk.  If he was posting as a Moderator he would sign place a signature at the end indicating that he was posting as one.  He is discussing, which is the whole dang point, doing it fairly politely too.

Lamont


----------



## MJS (May 9, 2007)

Guys, 

We have a good discussion going here so far.  Lamont is in fact correct regarding Andrews posting.  Mods., when involved in a discussion, do not moderate the thread in question.  As always, if anyone has an issue with a post, or a member, please use the RTM feature, which is the little red triangle in the upper right hand corner of every post.  

We have 2 different viewpoints here, one from Kenpo and the other from a boxing/mma area.  Personally, I think that if we all keep an open mind, both can be discussed.

So..back to the discussion. 

Mike


----------



## kidswarrior (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> But I'll be honest, most people that don't box and think they are throwing a boxing style hook tend to butcher it.  So I can see why some people might think it has little use.



I would have no idea of the proper mechanics and complete devastation a hook can cause if not for training in boxing.


----------



## Doc (May 9, 2007)

I'm by default as open minded as any. Hell I'm often on the outside even among some Kenpo folks. But no, "he ain't been polite," and at least two of the people on this thread agree he's being anything but, along with my personal email several others. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and most everybody here is pretty cool most of the time, but not him on this thread.


----------



## kidswarrior (May 9, 2007)

Doc said:


> Thus the horizontal punch in Kenpo. *Same thing different description*.



Well, I think I finally understand one of Doc's posts . Just can't keep up with the man sometimes.

To add a third option, I know *zDom* (Hapkido) uses a hooking ridge hand. From what I can gather, it's a straight-in ridge which then hooks (with body weight behind it, ala boxers) as it reaches its target (temple). Most of the discussion here has been about EPAK (imagine that, on a forum called EPAK :lol2, but my Kempo training is SKK. So, went back and looked at some of FV material. And he has the very same hooking ridge hand (calls it something else, but whatever). Maybe it's in more strains of the arts than I previously thought.


----------



## SL4Drew (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Countless people have been doing things for a long time, it doesn't mean they understand them. Ashida Kim has been doingin Ninjitsu for a long time, yet his name does not hold much weight in that field. The "I've been doing it before you where born" argument is pure logical fallacy.





Andrew Green said:


> Again, logical fallacy. I've trained with people that where really good at styles that I don't do as well, doesn't make me understand the style.


 
I think James said it pretty well and would echo him. I would like to point out the original question was "why we don't use a boxer's style hook punch in Parker's Kenpo?" Doc answered that, stating Kenpo does but it is really called something else. You made the mistake in assuming he didn't know what he was talking about because his terminology differed than yours. (A rose is a rose by any other name.) 

So if you want to really talk fallacies of logic or reasoning, it seems the type of fallacy you are invoking is _argumentum ad antiquitatem. _This is inapplicable here because Doc was explaining his own experience, rather than appealing to tradition as justification for maintaining the status quo. Nor did he invoke any general authority (_Argumentum ad verecundiam)_, as you claimed. 

I believe if you read the post more carefully you will realize he was informing you that he has experience with and an understanding of both Kenpo and boxing. You spun it incorrectly to provide you with a straw man, which is itself a fallacy. Your argument may have sounded impressive, but it lacked any real merit. 

So, I feel compelled to point out not only were you mistaken, but you were also dismissive. Plus, you ignored the subsequent clarification, and then you twisted it into an _ad hominem_ attack. No one mentioned anyones master or lineage except you. No one accused anyone of sitting in a box except you. 

Perhaps a true open-mindedness or interest in outside ideas might have lead you ask why do you say that, instead of boldly proclaiming no, youre wrong. Who knows, learning might have even happened.


----------



## Doc (May 9, 2007)

kidswarrior said:


> Well, I think I finally understand one of Doc's posts . Just can't keep up with the man sometimes.
> 
> To add a third option, I know *zDom* (Hapkido) uses a hooking ridge hand. From what I can gather, it's a straight-in ridge which then hooks (with body weight behind it, ala boxers) as it reaches its target (temple). Most of the discussion here has been about EPAK (imagine that, on a forum called EPAK :lol2, but my Kempo training is SKK. So, went back and looked at some of FV material. And he has the very same hooking ridge hand (calls it something else, but whatever). Maybe it's in more strains of the arts than I previously thought.



The truth is, depending upon understanding, all functional arts have to share anatomical similarities to be effective regardless of what you call it. That was one of the points I was attempting to make. Potato, Potaughto both make french fries, but ws cut off and told I was jsut wrong. I may not know much, but I know a little Kenpo and human anatomy that makes it work.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 9, 2007)

Are there any video clips of the Kenpo horizontal punch and other variations for everybody to take a look at?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 9, 2007)

JamesB said:


> so the hook occurs after the fist lands? the fist hits perpendicular in that case, its a horizontal punch in kenpo terms, the hooking is just a way to return to guard.And the arm has a great deal to do with the power of any punch.


 
Bingo!!!


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 9, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Are there any video clips of the Kenpo horizontal punch and other variations for everybody to take a look at?


 
Just about any hook punch clip will do.  Same punch, different name.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (May 9, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Just about any hook punch clip will do. Same punch, different name.


 
That is fine but I would like to see a kempo practitioner performing what is considered to be a hook punch.  There has to be some videos out there.  If no ones has any I will start looking this afternoon.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 9, 2007)

I'd like to see that too.

It seems there is a focus on the angle of the hit, which is ok, but the boxing style hook is very specific in how it is thrown and where it draws power.  I'd like to see a clip of this, or perhaps someone with a camera could do one up if none are available?


----------



## JamesB (May 9, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Bingo!!!


 
I got something right?! cool!!


----------



## The Master (May 9, 2007)

Doc said:


> Me thinks someone needs to get the so-called moderators under control on these two forums. That's where most of the discourse comes from lately. Most of us play nice here without their input, and we appear to be over-moderated. Why is someone NOT in Kenpo moderating a subject they know nothing about?


 
Damn those moderators. They should just shut up right Doc? All these posts from moderators = moderation right?  And if a guy who is a moderator posts in an area he doesn't moderate, that means he's over moderating, right? And what would a non-kenpoist know about kenpo? Especially compared to someone like yourself. I mean, no one knows kenpo like you do, what you being they one guy out of all the rest that Parker gave secret training too that none of the others got. They can't have, otherwise they would be teaching it right?

I read your huff n puff there about over moderation, sat back and read through a number of threads here and I can't find a single recent moderator warning. In fact, i saw a person who happens to be a moderator here, posting his informed opinion. I didn't see moderation going on. Maybe that degree from that prestigious university you always refuse to identify lets you see more than us mere mortals who have not yet found that enlightenment thing. Who bloody knows? Just because someone disagrees with you or wants to to expand and validate your reply doesn't make it "moderation". But you with your expansive background would now that right? So why not just do it since that is often what you teacher types ask us lowly students to do so often? "Expand and Justify"

Seriously Doc, lighten up and stop thinking you are the sole fountain of kenpo wisdom around. Your SL-4 stuff isn't bad, but others have equally valid theories on movement and all that stuff.  One doesn't need to have been anointed secretly by EP to know the mechanics of boxing, just ask Mike Tyson but watch your ears.  You have a ton of valuable knowledge, but you come off as a closed minded and often arrogant know-it-all who thinks his **** don't stink in too many of your postings. I for one, don't care for feeling as if someone is talking down to me.

By The Way, Back to Moderation:
Mr. Green moderates the MMA and Grappling sections. 
You might also want to reread the rules Doc before your fantasy that disagreement + moderation + public outcry != account suspention be proven for the false statement it is.

Have a Nice Kenpo Day.


----------



## Blindside (May 9, 2007)

The Master said:


> Have a Nice Kenpo Day.


 
Clyde!

Wait, no, Clyde wouldn't be anonymous.


----------



## Ray (May 9, 2007)

The Master said:


> disagreement + moderation + public outcry != account suspention



what's wrong with .NE. instead of !=  

c is nice but there's nothing that can't be done in FORTRAN...


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I'd like to see that too.
> 
> It seems there is a focus on the angle of the hit, which is ok, but the boxing style hook is very specific in how it is thrown and where it draws power. I'd like to see a clip of this, or perhaps someone with a camera could do one up if none are available?


 
In Kenpo terminology (which is where all the "heated" discourse is originating from) the name is defined by the path the weapon follows prior to impact.  In short a circular punch that lands on the "away" side of the circle is commonly called a roundhouse, once the punch starts coming back to the body it is commonly called a hook.  I say commonly because like everything lse there is variance in the interpretation.

With regards to the "boxer style" hook I could debate all day that the specfics are not as specific as you imply.  I have had many boxing and kickboxing instructors/coaches (not going to name drop but will say some are VERY notable).  None of these guys can agree on how to throw a hook or even a jab.  Some say to use the shoulder to "snap it" some say not to.  Some say to "open up" the elbow early some say wait until the last minute.  Some say to drive off of the rear foot some say to pivot hard off of the lead foot.  The "specifics" are anything but.  Just like kenpoists trying to agree on how to do Delayed Sword.  There are few specifics.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 9, 2007)

In the "Secrets of Chinese Karate" book by Mr. P., several different types of hooks are listed. Including slicing hooks, chopping hooks, horizontal and vertical variations of same, and so on. These were once a part of the stuff we trained in kenpo; multiple variations on a theme, studying the nature of the attacking weapon, it's path & line, and potential angles of incidence to available targets...those that were already available, and those that become available as a result of strike manipulation or contact/control manipulation...stuf that's there, "Because I put it there".

I learned these hooks. Hell, I learned variations of LF1 & 2 where these hooks -- in combination with some of the other obscure punches -- replaced some of the standard blows taught in canonized EPAK. 

Depending on your lineage, kenpo has hooks. And nobody reesponded to the Gentleman from Jersey when he pointed out the inability of many of the listed techs, as written, to respond effectively to the classic boxers-style hook.

Now, I'm gonna ignore all that silly argumentation stuff, and get back on topic with some observations about the hook; I suggest all follow suit, as sarcasm is helpful either, is it?

I boxed for a spell. Had to...bad point sparring habit of fighting a guy with my back turned mostly to him to minimize target availability...had to get back in the habit of facing him head on. The hook I learned for boxing, from boxers, was a fixed-shoulder, palm down (generally considered US hook, in contrast to the palm-in european version), turning at the torso. This from guys that were Archi Moore's sparring partners, dogs in Foremans gym, and the like...so they know boxing.The momentum and strength come from driving the body with the legs, and the fist clips him on the way by. The wind up for a hook alone is silly, so it's typically thrown in the return to neutral from a rear cross.

To "kenpo-ize it" for kenpo students, I have them throw the rear hand all the way into a forward bow. Rather than utilizing opposing forces with the lead hand drawn to hip chamber, they chamber the left hand high, fingers at or near the temple or crown of the head. Just before returning to a neutral bow, the lead hand just drops to a position akin to a low upward block against an imaginary attack from 10:00, fixed at a parallel plane to the floor at about the level of the collarbone, 90 degree angles all the way around, and drive the torso into the blow; to make it more boxing-like, they can continue as if turing into a reverse bow, and lift the lead heel so they end up in a wide kneel of sorts facing the other direction. If the bugger is too far away, it can be transitioned into a "slanted in hook", where it's part hook, part jab. This blow maintains strength of the hook, while better adapting to distance changes. Also picks up on better/nastier target opportunities along the side of the head...mandible, under the ear, temple.

In lotsa boxing gyms, I've seen people thrown dissociated hooks. More of a tight roundhouse flail, but certainly not driven by the body and legs. A lead hook is where you should be able to get your opponent to feel the effects of all the heavy squats and step-back lunges you've been doing. If it's only your arm hitting the guy, you're following a hooking path, but not pushing hook power. The body drives the punch in a hook; not the limb. 

Take an oval hula-hoop, and hold it parallel to the floor, pointy parts of the oval towards 9:00 & 3:00, bad guy at 12:00. The waist spin that returns you to your own territory will automatically draw the blow back into your own green zone, from 9:00, past 12:00, towards 3:00. The moment of contact, however, should be timed to land with the apical top of the curve about 1 inch into the targets body part. Make sense?

D.


----------



## rockky (May 9, 2007)

If two fighters are in close, and that hook is thrown, I'm wondering if an outward extended block would deflect the hook or would the hook punch circle or slide around the block.

By the way, i think someone mentioned defending a jab... I studied under Bob Perry and Bill Neff; they had renamed, I believe, Shielding Mace as "Boxer Style Left Jab" (to defend against the jab, of course).


----------



## Andrew Green (May 9, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> There are few specifics.



True enough, but I would say some things are pretty consistant, with variation.  There are certain do's and don't's and a lot of maybe's.  All the pieces need to fit together to make it work.

And that is where I have my doubts about the whole discussion.  Your pieces need to fit together.  You cannot, for example, stick a shotokan reverse punch into boxing and have it mix well with the standard pieces of that puzzle.  It has nothing to do witht he technique and its validity, it just doesn't fit into that puzzle.  It relies on different principles and different setups, entries, exits, positioning and footwork.

There may be a kenpo style hook, and it may work great in kenpo, but I don't see the boxing style hook fitting into that puzzle.  Diesal in a gas car, just doesn't work.

Now if it is there, I would be curious to see how it fits in and how it is thrown.  Because what I see based on the descriptions given so far is not a boxing style hook, it is something else.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> True enough, but I would say some things are pretty consistant, with variation. There are certain do's and don't's and a lot of maybe's. All the pieces need to fit together to make it work.


 
Agreed, there are do's and don'ts



> And that is where I have my doubts about the whole discussion. Your pieces need to fit together. You cannot, for example, stick a shotokan reverse punch into boxing and have it mix well with the standard pieces of that puzzle. It has nothing to do witht he technique and its validity, it just doesn't fit into that puzzle. It relies on different principles and different setups, entries, exits, positioning and footwork.


 
Disagree.  Any tool is useful if you know how to use it.  All the punches are just tools.  The person makes them work not the style.  So yes you can throw a shotokan reverse punch in boxing and have it have effect.  Timing is (arguably) the most essential basic of any fighting art.  If you time the blow properly and set it up properly it will land regardless of the "style" attached to it as the "style" is just a descriptional tool for discussion.



> There may be a kenpo style hook, and it may work great in kenpo, but I don't see the boxing style hook fitting into that puzzle. Diesal in a gas car, just doesn't work.


 
But you also don't do Kenpo so how would you "see" it fitting in?  I do and have done both, the parts are as interchangeable as legos.  The only limitation is the ruleset which in fighting does not exist.  The analogy you gave of fuel for a motor is a little off as the car may be Kenpo or boxing but the fuel isn't a hook it's body mechanics which can be mixed, matched and adapted.  It'd be more like changing the style of mirrors between two different car models.  It might not look right or appealing to the naked eye but serves it's function just fine.



> Now if it is there, I would be curious to see how it fits in and how it is thrown. Because what I see based on the descriptions given so far is not a boxing style hook, it is something else.


 
I cannot see what you see when you visualize text.  From what I read it all looks the same to me.  But my imagery is probably biased from having kickboxed and practiced Kenpo alot.  I cannot say I fully understand how you expect to "see" how a 'boxers style hook' fits into Kenpo without having any experience with Kenpo other than seeing and reading about it.  It'd be like saying you understand how to repair a diesel engine just because you've seen picture of it running (kenpo/bioxing practice) and of its parts seperatly (hook punches).  Do you have more Kenpo experience than what has been presented?  If not it is a moot discussion because you will not really understand the perspectives, mechanics, etc.


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 9, 2007)

rockky said:


> If two fighters are in close, and that hook is thrown, I'm wondering if an outward extended block would deflect the hook or would the hook punch circle or slide around the block.
> 
> By the way, i think someone mentioned defending a jab... I studied under Bob Perry and Bill Neff; they had renamed, I believe, Shielding Mace as "Boxer Style Left Jab" (to defend against the jab, of course).


 
depends on how close which is why the hooh punch defenses have a step back included instead of a step in.  Too close and the punch will go around the block and score a clean hit.


----------



## Andrew Green (May 9, 2007)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:


> Disagree.  Any tool is useful if you know how to use it.  All the punches are just tools.  The person makes them work not the style.  So yes you can throw a shotokan reverse punch in boxing and have it have effect.  Timing is (arguably) the most essential basic of any fighting art.  If you time the blow properly and set it up properly it will land regardless of the "style" attached to it as the "style" is just a descriptional tool for discussion.



To some extent yes, butyour pieces do need to fit in.  As what I would consider a very clear cut example, try adding TKD kicks to a freestyle wrestling base.  Or WIng Chun trapping to Boxing.  They just don't fit together.





> I cannot see what you see when you visualize text.



No, text is a poor medium for technical discussion.  Which is why I would like to see a video or even pictures with explnation, keeps everyone on the same page.  Also why I posted a couple variations on a hook from a boxing style.

So... can anyone of the Kenpo folks give a link, or grab camera and get us all on the sage page?


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (May 9, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> To some extent yes, butyour pieces do need to fit in. As what I would consider a very clear cut example, try adding TKD kicks to a freestyle wrestling base. Or WIng Chun trapping to Boxing. They just don't fit together.


 
And I would consider these examples not clear cut for many reasons

1) Range differences. TKD kicks = long range while freestyle wrestling is short range.  Kicking period from close range is next to impossible and shooting from long range is damn near suicidal.  But someone blending the two and adjusting for various ranges isn't hard.  See Chuck Lidell, Pedro Rizzo and Marco Ruas for good examples of switching from kicking techniques to freestye wrestling as the situation demands.  Same thing for Wing Chun and Boxing....different effective ranges.  I remember people saying that boxing and wrestling didn't mix....until the Coutures, Ortizs, and Fryes of the world showed up.

2) Rule Sets.  All of the styles you chose operate under a specific rule structure which violates therules of the other.  Can't kick in wrestling, Can't grab in TKD, can't kick or grab in Boxing.  That right there causes issue.  Especially since 3 of the 4 are sports in some instances.

You seem to have your mind set on "this is Apples and this is Oranges and you can't mix the two".  My experience has shown me otherwise.


----------



## Doc (May 9, 2007)

The Master said:


> Damn those moderators. They should just shut up right Doc? All these posts from moderators = moderation right?  And if a guy who is a moderator posts in an area he doesn't moderate, that means he's over moderating, right? And what would a non-kenpoist know about kenpo? Especially compared to someone like yourself. I mean, no one knows kenpo like you do, what you being they one guy out of all the rest that Parker gave secret training too that none of the others got. They can't have, otherwise they would be teaching it right?
> 
> I read your huff n puff there about over moderation, sat back and read through a number of threads here and I can't find a single recent moderator warning. In fact, i saw a person who happens to be a moderator here, posting his informed opinion. I didn't see moderation going on. Maybe that degree from that prestigious university you always refuse to identify lets you see more than us mere mortals who have not yet found that enlightenment thing. Who bloody knows? Just because someone disagrees with you or wants to to expand and validate your reply doesn't make it "moderation". But you with your expansive background would now that right? So why not just do it since that is often what you teacher types ask us lowly students to do so often? "Expand and Justify"
> 
> ...


11Mary6 1Adam Henry Clear.


----------



## distalero (May 9, 2007)

Perhaps this is the time to point out two ideas in this thread that one would want to consider? One relates to why a "boxing style hook" wasn't really promoted much back in the Middle Ages of Kenpo in my locale, and the other has been possibly ignored.

First point: Did everyone read Blindside's first post? THAT'S why it wasn't promoted much back then (partly out of our own denial, though). 

Second point: The first point brings us to the resulting implied but not mentioned issue in all of this, and that's a boxer's fist is tightly taped in a specific way, and covered in a boxing glove. Hooking bare fisted, at least hooking a punch in the commonly understood way (however accurate or inaccurate the understanding), raised the risk of broken and/or dislocated bones, big time, if for no other reason than hitting an angry target isn't that easy. Breaking your own bones was frowned on as bad technique (we had that much down  )


----------



## ChadWarner (May 9, 2007)

distalero said:


> Perhaps this is the time to point out two ideas in this thread that one would want to consider? One relates to why a "boxing style hook" wasn't really promoted much back in the Middle Ages of Kenpo in my locale, and the other has been possibly ignored.
> 
> First point: Did everyone read Blindside's first post? THAT'S why it wasn't promoted much back then (partly out of our own denial, though).
> 
> Second point: The first point brings us to the resulting implied but not mentioned issue in all of this, and that's a boxer's fist is tightly taped in a specific way, and covered in a boxing glove. Hooking bare fisted, at least hooking a punch in the commonly understood way (however accurate or inaccurate the understanding), raised the risk of broken and/or dislocated bones, big time, if for no other reason than hitting an angry target isn't that easy. Breaking your own bones was frowned on as bad technique (we had that much down  )


 
Asian based arts are 2 thousand years old at least.  Someone figured it before America was ever even colonized let alone commercialized martial art reared its head.  There is not  really a common accepted way because there are many, many ways and angles on which to hook.  A good boxer uses prolly 3 different hooks.  A well rounded Kenpo student should have 23.  We eye hook, fish hook, hook kick, uppercut, and we definitely hook to the body and head with our hands.   We invert our fists (blinding sacrifice and twirling hammers) and strike with the back of the knuckle, palm up fist repeating mace, etc, etc.  As Doc said, a boxer style hook is just one version of the many that already exist in this art.   

Hooks land after the apex of the cirlcle,  If the  techs I mentioned are to be looked at a little closer we will find that the apex of the cirlce of the hooking movement is adjustable.  It is adjustable because of where you are etc, one of my biggest things when matching someone is to be able to adjust to them.  Ie arm length and the 4 ranges. When people eliminate things it is purely a lack of information and understanding that causes this unless:  Of course there is always an unless.  Unless uselessness has been determined for you at this particular point in time not to be permenently deleted from your arsenal because there will be a fractional use for it sooner or later.   I should know- I am the King of throwing away material only to find a use for it years later and not really remember it as good as it was.  

Somethings I will never find a use for are blocking with my nads, my nose or my teeth.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 10, 2007)

The Master said:


> Damn those moderators. They should just shut up right Doc? All these posts from moderators = moderation right? And if a guy who is a moderator posts in an area he doesn't moderate, that means he's over moderating, right? And what would a non-kenpoist know about kenpo? Especially compared to someone like yourself. I mean, no one knows kenpo like you do, what you being they one guy out of all the rest that Parker gave secret training too that none of the others got. They can't have, otherwise they would be teaching it right?
> 
> I read your huff n puff there about over moderation, sat back and read through a number of threads here and I can't find a single recent moderator warning. In fact, i saw a person who happens to be a moderator here, posting his informed opinion. I didn't see moderation going on. Maybe that degree from that prestigious university you always refuse to identify lets you see more than us mere mortals who have not yet found that enlightenment thing. Who bloody knows? Just because someone disagrees with you or wants to to expand and validate your reply doesn't make it "moderation". But you with your expansive background would now that right? So why not just do it since that is often what you teacher types ask us lowly students to do so often? "Expand and Justify"
> 
> ...


 
Ya know, I've been thinking about this particular post. I originally opted to keep my mouth shut and stay out, because Doc is a friend of mine, and I figured anything I said would just be framed as "You're just saying that because you're Doc's friend".

But the entire tone of  this post has been sticking in my craw as being akin to cussing out your kid for using the F word. Credibility of any observation falls to the wayside in light of the demeaning and sarcastic tone used in delivery. It reads as if you went out of your way to do a bunch of muckraking research on the man & the issue so you could be sarcastic and nasty with some extra umph. I see very thinly veiled fecal matter used to spank and bait someone who may have simply erred in perception, and who could have been invited back into the current conversation through simpler means. One could still have been as direct as Doc in disagreeing with Doc, without using such a confrontational and disrespectful tone to demand that he stop being disrespectful and confrontational.

If your intent was to invite him to participate in the conversation at a more gentlemanly level, this was a piss poor way to do it. There's room in there for modelling the difference you hope to create.

I'm sure I'll get blasted or exposed to endless strings of blame-calling for this; I just hope the underlying theme isn't lost or forgotten.

Regards,

Dave


----------



## SL4Drew (May 10, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I'm sure I'll get blasted or exposed to endless strings of blame-calling for this; I just hope the underlying theme isn't lost or forgotten.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave


 
I hope not. You were spot on.


----------



## kidswarrior (May 10, 2007)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> There's room in there for modelling the difference you hope to create.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave



Classy 'n classic.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (May 10, 2007)

The mod team took care of the issues quietly, and opted not to post anything in-thread as the thread had appeared to move back on topic.  Lets keep it there please.

If there is a problem with anyone's posts, pleast use the Report to Moderator feature (the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 icon). We will take care of it.

Thanks.


----------

