# Wrist lock names?



## skribs (Oct 17, 2018)

At my school we number techniques instead of naming them.  As someone who works in IT, I know that a name is a lot easier to remember than a number (i.e. "Skribs PC" is easier than 192.168.1.1).  So I'm curious some of the names for the different wristlocks.  I can post pictures of the locks I'm discussing later, but hopefully my description will be enough.

(I believe this is a "Z-lock").  Opponent's arm is bent in towards their chest, with their hand in a gooseneck pointing towards you.  The joints on the wrist and the elbow make a Z-shape with their hand, forearm, and upper arm.  From here, you can either pin the forearm and click up on the thumb to cause pain, or you can trap the hand and push down on the wrist to cause pain.
(I believe this is a "V-lock").  Opponent's arm is bent out away from their chest.  Ideally their elbow would be tucked into their gut, and you twist on the pinky to apply torsion to their wrist.  This can be done with your thumbs on the back of the hand pushing the pinky, with your thumbs on their palms so you can pull their hand over, or with one hand on the back of their wrist to trap it and the other hand pushing on the knuckles.  Both the wrist and elbow make a V-shape, hence the name (I think).
(I believe this one is a "Figure-4 Lock").  In this one, you are usually off to the side of your opponent, facing behind them.  If you're attacking their right arm, you'll have your right hand on their wrist, right elbow in their shoulder or bicep, and your left arm looped through their arm and grasping your bicep.  You can now push their hand backwards and down, which is real uncomfortable on the elbow and shoulder.
(From this point on, I don't even have a guess as to the name).  The fourth type of wrist-lock I want to bring up is kind of like a V-Lock in execution and a Figure-4 in location.  In this lock, you have their arm curled up next to their head, with their elbow by their ear and their hand curled in near the shoulder.  You can either press on the elbow or twist the wrist in, which will shift their weight back and cause them to tip over.
The fifth type of lock is more of a throw.  It might be lumped in with #2, I'm not entirely sure.  This is the type where you grab the back of their hand with your cross arm and twist their hand over.  Then you circle around behind them to that side and use the twist of their wrist and pressure on their elbow to take them down.
The sixth type is where you use inward pressure on the wrist to straighten the arm and control them.  This could be a push or a pull, but in both cases you push in on their hand and pull out on their wrist to lock their elbow, and then push or pull along that line to get them off balance. 
Similar to #6, where you have an armbar and use pressure on the wrist to fully lock the arm and complete the submission.
Locks designed to push the hand backwards.  A couple examples are where you trap your opponents hand against you and either twist or pull to bend the wrist or apply pressure to the nerves on the forearm.  Another example is when you can get the opponent with is fingers jabbed into his ribs, elbow out (kind of like the "I'm a little teapot" dance) and then push up or back on his fingers to twist his wrist.
A lock that gets someone up on their tiptoes.  Grab the opponents wrist and then use your bicep into their elbow to lock their elbow straight.  This one gets them to give up any semblance of a stance real quick, and you can then push on their elbow to take them down.  Alternatively, a similar lock from the other side (straight arm instead of cross arm) where you use your elbow into their tricep.
I have left out a lot of details about how these work, both individually and in-context.  I'm not trying to get a better understanding of the technical aspects of these right now.  I'm merely looking for help in what they're named.


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## Tez3 (Oct 17, 2018)

I've always known them as 'ouch', 'oh hell that hurts', 'arghhhhh' and ' oh dear lord that hurts like hell'.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2018)

Take some photos.


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## skribs (Oct 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Take some photos.



I'll try to get some this weekend.  I could do the typing now is why I did without the photos.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2018)

In the Hapkido I studied we also used numbers.  I think some styles use Korean to say something to the effect "wrist lock defense throw number 6," or "side kick defense strike number 2."


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## skribs (Oct 18, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> In the Hapkido I studied we also used numbers.  I think some styles use Korean to say something to the effect "wrist lock defense throw number 6," or "side kick defense strike number 2."



My Master is very big on numbering things in both Hapkido and Taekwondo.  In addition to the forms, for example, we have to memorize punch and kick combinations by number.  For 3rd Dan, that's 20 different combinations of kicks (which may be as simple as a kick and a few punches, or as complex as 3-4 spinning kicks with footwork).  Then during the test he'll have us go "#5...#3...#17....#4...#20...#13...#8..." and we have to do the right combination.

I have a good memory so that part isn't hard for me.  Doing the 300+ kicks to get through all the combos several times each...that part is hard for me.


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## Buka (Oct 18, 2018)

We purposely don't have names for each individual one in law enforcement reports, at least in my particular circle. Just "control hold" or "arm lock" etc. Makes any court appearances easer.

We don't have names for all of them in American Karate either, just some. (No particular reason) For instance, the Z lock you mentioned, we call a Bent Elbow Wrist Lock. I think that's from Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu. Most of the ones I teach I call "The one where you grab the arm like this". I know, not exactly technical.

Most of the ones I have taught and can do in my sleep......I've never actually used in real life. But some I have.

The others you have listed are kind of hard to picture just from the written word alone. But I probably would have described them in the exact same way.

This looks interesting. I never thought of using a skeleton before. Not that I ever had access to one. Trying to picture one hanging in the dojo. Might be good to frighten the children. (I kid, I kid.) It would probably look the balls in a black gi, though.


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## skribs (Oct 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> We purposely don't have names for each individual one in law enforcement reports, at least in my particular circle. Just "control hold" or "arm lock" etc. Makes any court appearances easer.
> 
> We don't have names for all of them in American Karate either, just some. (No particular reason) For instance, the Z lock you mentioned, we call a Bent Elbow Wrist Lock. I think that's from Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu. Most of the ones I teach I call "The one where you grab the arm like this". I know, not exactly technical.
> 
> ...



This is why I say terminology is important.  In court, I think "arm lock" or "control hold" is sufficient to describe what happened.  Just like "I shot the perp with my service weapon" should be just as good as "I shot the perp with my .40-caliber S&W M&P duty pistol".  The specific tool isn't the question, the action is.  In this case, the hold is the action, and the specific hold is the tool.

But what you said about "the one where you grab the arm like this" is where terminology can be useful.  If I say "Z lock" then I don't need to pantomime the grab while telling them which to do.  Or if they're at an angle they can't see my arm while I'm demonstrating, but they know what "Z lock" is.  And so forth.

Edit:  I just learned a new way to apply that Z-lock from the video.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> This is why I say terminology is important.  In court, I think "arm lock" or "control hold" is sufficient to describe what happened.  Just like "I shot the perp with my service weapon" should be just as good as "I shot the perp with my .40-caliber S&W M&P duty pistol".  The specific tool isn't the question, the action is.  In this case, the hold is the action, and the specific hold is the tool.
> 
> But what you said about "the one where you grab the arm like this" is where terminology can be useful.  If I say "Z lock" then I don't need to pantomime the grab while telling them which to do.  Or if they're at an angle they can't see my arm while I'm demonstrating, but they know what "Z lock" is.  And so forth.
> 
> Edit:  I just learned a new way to apply that Z-lock from the video.



I just read this today and thought the same thing.  In the Hapkido I studied we would have called it something like "3rd Dan black belt, 8 gup wrist grab #4."  A rose by any other name.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> We purposely don't have names for each individual one in law enforcement reports, at least in my particular circle. Just "control hold" or "arm lock" etc. Makes any court appearances easer.
> 
> We don't have names for all of them in American Karate either, just some. (No particular reason) For instance, the Z lock you mentioned, we call a Bent Elbow Wrist Lock. I think that's from Small Circle Jiu-Jitsu. Most of the ones I teach I call "The one where you grab the arm like this". I know, not exactly technical.
> 
> ...



Is that a MA class or an anatomy school.


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## Buka (Oct 19, 2018)

skribs said:


> Edit:  I just learned a new way to apply that Z-lock from the video.



That's awesome. What did you learn?


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## Danny T (Oct 19, 2018)

I teach 5 Basic wrist locks (the control is the wrist) based on the relationship to the centerline.
S- straight toward the core
B-back (back away from the center line)
C-crossing the line
D-Downward
U-Upward
From that there are several variations of the base lock:
S1, S2, S3,..., B1, B2, B3,..., C1, C2...,etc.
And of course there is the Right and Left variations.


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## skribs (Oct 19, 2018)

Buka said:


> That's awesome. What did you learn?



The one where he had the wristlock with the wrist straight and then used the other hand to bend the elbow and/or keep it from going.

I tried it out later and it didn't seem to get the shock as effectively as the way we normally apply a z-lock (instead of the elbow, going for the wrist), but if their elbow is straight we can't get to it that way.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2018)

CMA uses name such as:

1. Whale close the mouth - one hand hold on opponent's wrist, another hand push the back of his palm back.
2. Eagle claw break - One hand hold on the back of opponent's hand, another hand apply pressure on his wrist.
3. Windmill - use both hands to twist opponent's wrist.
4. Side windmill - hold on opponent's wrist, press forearm to apply pressure on wrist.
5. Devil's hand shake - start from hand shake, turn body and twist on opponent's wrist.
6. Chicken wing hold - Put opponent's elbow on your chest, hand press on the back of his palm, twist his wrist.
7. Meat grinder - hold opponent's arm under your shoulder, twist his palm,
8. Behind the back hold - put opponent's elbow on your chest, both hands press the back of his palm
9. ...


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I've always known them as 'ouch', 'oh hell that hurts', 'arghhhhh' and ' oh dear lord that hurts like hell'.


lol.. you beat me too it.  I just thinking.."hurt a little" and "hurt a lot" for the names


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## skribs (Oct 20, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol.. you beat me too it.  I just thinking.."hurt a little" and "hurt a lot" for the names



With my Master we can't distinguish between them that way.  With the students maybe, but it's different for every student.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> CMA uses name such as:
> 
> 1. Whale close the mouth - one hand hold on opponent's wrist, another hand push the back of his palm back.
> 2. Eagle claw break - One hand hold on the back of opponent's hand, another hand apply pressure on his wrist.
> ...



We do something similar.  The Z-lock where you push down on the wrist we call "Motorcycle" because the motion is like revving a motorcycle.  In Taekwondo we refer to some of the grips as "baseball bat" because it's how you hold a baseball bat.

And forgive me for this, but one of the motions we use in the handgrabs in Taekwondo involves putting your right hand up by their ear.  The motion kind of looks like the salutes the Nazis used.  So I used to tell my fellow students who were struggling with this motion "Heil Hitler."  That always got a chuckle, and they got the move a lot better after that.
I stopped doing this when I became an official instructor. 

But this is why I also want to learn the names for the locks.  Because having a name makes it easier to remember for me.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> The one where he had the wristlock with the wrist straight and then used the other hand to bend the elbow and/or keep it from going.
> 
> I tried it out later and it didn't seem to get the shock as effectively as the way we normally apply a z-lock (instead of the elbow, going for the wrist), but if their elbow is straight we can't get to it that way.



When I learned that we would go for the elbow pretty much simultaneously with the wrist lock.  There is a nerve in the elbow that greatly aids in performing that move.  Also, the hand would be against the chest for more control.  Have you learned that?


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## skribs (Oct 23, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> When I learned that we would go for the elbow pretty much simultaneously with the wrist lock.  There is a nerve in the elbow that greatly aids in performing that move.  Also, the hand would be against the chest for more control.  Have you learned that?



We hit the nerve in the forearm instead of at the elbow.  Maybe I just haven't learned it properly at the elbow, but I find it more effective in the forearm.  The elbow did seem to make it less likely to fail, but the forearm seemed to get a stronger response.  Again, this is with me having years practicing the forearm version and just trying out the elbow version.

And yes, I'm very familiar with how keeping the elbow bent (hand close to their chest) affects the wristlock.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> We hit the nerve in the forearm instead of at the elbow.  Maybe I just haven't learned it properly at the elbow, but I find it more effective in the forearm.  The elbow did seem to make it less likely to fail, but the forearm seemed to get a stronger response.  Again, this is with me having years practicing the forearm version and just trying out the elbow version.
> 
> And yes, I'm very familiar with how keeping the elbow bent (hand close to their chest) affects the wristlock.



There are so many variations on most moves so as long as something works and we can do it correctly, that is what counts.

Ah, sorry, I wasn't specific.  I meant keeping his hand/wrist close to our chest.  It gives more control and generally cranks the wrist more.


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## skribs (Oct 23, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> There are so many variations on most moves so as long as something works and we can do it correctly, that is what counts.
> 
> Ah, sorry, I wasn't specific.  I meant keeping his hand/wrist close to our chest.  It gives more control and generally cranks the wrist more.



I'll try that when going for the elbow. Where is the pressure point on the elbow?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 23, 2018)

skribs said:


> I'll try that when going for the elbow. Where is the pressure point on the elbow?



Easy to say, best learned by trial and error.  It is on the inside of the elbow but towards the top and behind/against the radius.  You will know on yourself or a practice opponent when you find it.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 23, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Easy to say, best learned by trial and error.  It is on the inside of the elbow but towards the top and behind/against the radius.  You will know on yourself or a practice opponent when you find it.



BTW, do you have a basic defense to a right wrist grab where you move your wrist out and over the opponent's arm while you reach with your left arm to a pressure point in the elbow to prevent resistance, as you move under his arm and behind him and into a hammer lock by grabbing his collar with your right arm, and pull back on his head with your left arm?  Depending on an opponent's anatomy, they are about the same.


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## Buka (Oct 23, 2018)

This thread is really difficult to understand. Can you guys put up some photos? I just want to follow along.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 23, 2018)

I taught this "Devil's hand shake" to a group of kids in the street of Brazil and they loved it.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 30, 2018)

Buka said:


> This thread is really difficult to understand. Can you guys put up some photos? I just want to follow along.



I agree.  However is is very difficult to explain some of the grappling moves, but much easier to demonstrate them.  I have tried in MT enough to have seen that.  It usually requires a lengthy explanation and since I don't think most members are dense or illiterate, I have to assume they have trouble conceptualizing what I write, or are too easily bored.    Of course it could be my writing style, but at least one or two should be able to get it.


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## skribs (Oct 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree.  However is is very difficult to explain some of the grappling moves, but much easier to demonstrate them.  I have tried in MT enough to have seen that.  It usually requires a lengthy explanation and since I don't think most members are dense or illiterate, I have to assume they have trouble conceptualizing what I write, or are too easily bored.    Of course it could be my writing style, but at least one or two should be able to get it.



I just assume the others are dense or illiterate.

I have pictures, will post a new thread soon.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2018)

Danny T said:


> I teach 5 Basic wrist locks (the control is the wrist) based on the relationship to the centerline.
> S- straight toward the core
> B-back (back away from the center line)
> C-crossing the line
> ...


Danny, I'd be interested in understanding that nomenclature a bit. Could you point me to something that shows the C/D/U distinction, or is that something you can explain in words?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 30, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree.  However is is very difficult to explain some of the grappling moves, but much easier to demonstrate them.  I have tried in MT enough to have seen that.  It usually requires a lengthy explanation and since I don't think most members are dense or illiterate, I have to assume they have trouble conceptualizing what I write, or are too easily bored.    Of course it could be my writing style, but at least one or two should be able to get it.


I find it difficult to explain in writing, because most of my habits of explanation depend upon a visual. I've mostly taught small classes, so I don't really even have to worry about people not being able to get a clear view. If I had a sight-impaired student, I'd have to entirely re-learn some of my descriptions.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I find it difficult to explain in writing, because most of my habits of explanation depend upon a visual. I've mostly taught small classes, so I don't really even have to worry about people not being able to get a clear view. If I had a sight-impaired student, I'd have to entirely re-learn some of my descriptions.



I have found that even with persons with perfect sight, I sometimes have to grab their hand or stop them and make them look at their feet, then make them move the way the technique requires.  It's not that people are stupid but grappling can be a very confounding thing when you aren't used to it.  Another of the reasons for learning wrist grab defenses imho.  I have often wondered if a sightless person might actually do better due to their unique (or rather differing) methods of perception.  Even when defending where their body and the opponent's body aren't in contact, they may be able to discern things sighted persons would not.

Anyone have experience with that?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I taught this "Devil's hand shake" to a group of kids in the street of Brazil and they loved it.



In the Hapkido I studied we had something similar as a wrist grab defense.  We reversed our hand to a grab of the opponent's wrist and followed through as you show.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have found that even with persons with perfect sight, I sometimes have to grab their hand or stop them and make them look at their feet, then make them move the way the technique requires.  It's not that people are stupid but grappling can be a very confounding thing when you aren't used to it.  Another of the reasons for learning wrist grab defenses imho.  I have often wondered if a sightless person might actually do better due to their unique (or rather differing) methods of perception.  Even when defending where their body and the opponent's body aren't in contact, they may be able to discern things sighted persons would not.
> 
> Anyone have experience with that?


Agreed. Even when people see properly, they sometimes don't actually pay attention to the right thing. And I've often wondered if teaching some moves might not benefit from a blindfold, so people are paying more attention to the feel than what it looks like.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 31, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have often wondered if a sightless person might actually do better due to their unique (or rather differing) methods of perception. Even when defending where their body and the opponent's body aren't in contact, they may be able to discern things sighted persons would not.





gpseymour said:


> And I've often wondered if teaching some moves might not benefit from a blindfold, so people are paying more attention to the feel than what it looks like.



I actually grapple better overall with my eyes closed. Without the visual distraction I have a better feel for my partners balance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I actually grapple better overall with my eyes closed. Without the visual distraction I have a better feel for my partners balance.


Interesting. I can't say I've done a significant amount of it, to be able to make that judgment. We used to do blindfolded drills at my old school, and I always found those easy, but never actively compared them to the same drill without the blindfold. I'll have to try some out next time I'm down there.


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## KabutoKouji (Nov 1, 2018)

in YMAA I believe anything with the 'Z shape' is called the 'Universal angle' or something


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## vince1 (Jan 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> At my school we number techniques instead of naming them.  As someone who works in IT, I know that a name is a lot easier to remember than a number (i.e. "Skribs PC" is easier than 192.168.1.1).  So I'm curious some of the names for the different wristlocks.  I can post pictures of the locks I'm discussing later, but hopefully my description will be enough.
> 
> (I believe this is a "Z-lock").  Opponent's arm is bent in towards their chest, with their hand in a gooseneck pointing towards you.  The joints on the wrist and the elbow make a Z-shape with their hand, forearm, and upper arm.  From here, you can either pin the forearm and click up on the thumb to cause pain, or you can trap the hand and push down on the wrist to cause pain.
> (I believe this is a "V-lock").  Opponent's arm is bent out away from their chest.  Ideally their elbow would be tucked into their gut, and you twist on the pinky to apply torsion to their wrist.  This can be done with your thumbs on the back of the hand pushing the pinky, with your thumbs on their palms so you can pull their hand over, or with one hand on the back of their wrist to trap it and the other hand pushing on the knuckles.  Both the wrist and elbow make a V-shape, hence the name (I think).
> ...



A friend of mine has just written a book on wrist locks & holds. If you are interested I can give you his contact info.


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## skribs (Jan 7, 2019)

vince1 said:


> A friend of mine has just written a book on wrist locks & holds. If you are interested I can give you his contact info.


Send me a PM.

Or post where we can get the book if its published.


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## vince1 (Jan 7, 2019)

Go to BLURB.CA, the book is called Koryu Goshin Aikijuijitsu.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2019)

IMO, the most important part of the wrist lock is how to change from the 

downward force -> horizontal force -> pulling force


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the most important part of the wrist lock is how to change from the
> 
> downward force -> horizontal force -> pulling force


Can you explain what you mean there?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Can you explain what you mean there?


When you apply "eagle claw break with

- downward force, your opponent can raise his elbow to cancel your downward force. You have to change your downward force into horizontal force.
- horizontal force, your opponent can turn his body to cancel your horizontal force. You have to change your downward force into pulling force.

Depending on your opponent's respond, your locking force have to be able to change.


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## vince1 (Jan 7, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you apply "eagle claw break with
> 
> - downward force, your opponent can raise his elbow to cancel your downward force. You have to change your downward force into horizontal force.
> - horizontal force, your opponent can turn his body to cancel your horizontal force. You have to change your downward force into pulling force.
> ...



We do the same thing in North Star Aiki Jiu Jitsu except that it is called , cross wrist grasp second control with pull pin. It also has a punch to the ribs. A little more elaborate but very effective.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 7, 2019)

vince1 said:


> We do the same thing in North Star Aiki Jiu Jitsu except that it is called , cross wrist grasp second control with pull pin. It also has a punch to the ribs. A little more elaborate but very effective.


In Nihon Goshin Aikido, it's the First Wrist Technique (or in some schools, First Wrist Lock or First Set Wrist Technique).


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