# Non-profit Shorinji Kenpo



## Shogun (Jul 1, 2004)

There is a school kinda near me that teaches Shorinji. They are non profit only, even their Shodan students arent allowed to charge. I was wondering if all Shorinji schools or orgs are like this. Thanks all.


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jul 1, 2004)

any org or school of any style can come out with a non-profit org if they go about getting the papers done. so if i were you i'd go inside and ask a few more questions about the program and classes.


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## Shogun (Jul 1, 2004)

The instructor told me (via email) that If I was to reach instructor level, I couldnt charge fees, or anything, because Shorinji Kenpo is entirely non profit.


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## arnisador (Jul 2, 2004)

There was a Shorinji Ke_m_po forum on this board for a while, which was folded into JMA-General. You might turn up some info. on a search of that area. Shorinji Kempo has a definite religious/philosophical flavor! I'm not sure if you mean a Shorinji Ke_n_po that is truly different or if it's just an alternate spelling--I don't know very much about the system, I'm afraid.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 2, 2004)

The Problem with running a Martial Arts School as a non profit is you have to read the Articles of Incorporation and the Corporate By Laws to understand the Corporations intent and purpose. Additionally how are they paying for utilities and Rent someone has to be infusing money into the school even if it is by Federal grants or "Chartiable Contributions" 

I for one would be disturbed if I was told I could not assess a small fee even to cover gas for traveling to the studio lol. 

I would ask for a copy of the Bylaws because according to IRS Rules and Regulations they have to be available for public veiwing and additionally you may also request formally in writing a copy of Fiscal Records which also are required to made available for a reasonable fee and  amount of time lets say 48 hours.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## John Bishop (Jul 2, 2004)

They may all be non-profit because Shorinji Kempo is a recognized religion in Japan.


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## OC Kid (Jul 2, 2004)

Yea they may not charge fees but ask them if they take donations and how much and how frequent must someone donate. Nuttin is for nuttin


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## Shogun (Jul 6, 2004)

They charge a fee of $28 every months for utilities. 



> They may all be non-profit because Shorinji Kempo is a recognized religion in Japan.


I have never heard this before. tell me more.


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## John Bishop (Jul 6, 2004)

*Martial art or religion?
*

Shorinji Kempo is a registered religion in Japan, and there is an interesting story behind this. After WWII the occupation forces banned the study of traditional Japanese martial arts on the grounds that they promoted militarianism, nationalism, and imperialism. So to get past this rule, So Doshin decided that if there could be dancing religions (one of the many cults to appear in the post-war religious boom in Japan), then he could very well set up a "fighting religion", which he did. It seems likely that the occupations forces turned a blind-eye in this case, as can be seen by the fact that they accepted his flimsy explanation, and the fact that he borrowed the British Forces' (who were in charge of the island of Shikoku where he first started Shorinji Kempo) boxing ring and gloves for training and to give demonstrations. Thus Shorinji Kempo does have official status as a religion in Japan.


More reading:
http://knot.mine.nu/kempo/history.html#maorrel


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## Shogun (Jul 6, 2004)

Thanks. Had no Idea. I guess thats why they can claim non-profit.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 6, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> *Martial art or religion?*
> 
> 
> Shorinji Kempo is a registered religion in Japan, and there is an interesting story behind this. After WWII the occupation forces banned the study of traditional Japanese martial arts on the grounds that they promoted militarianism, nationalism, and imperialism. So to get past this rule, So Doshin decided that if there could be dancing religions (one of the many cults to appear in the post-war religious boom in Japan), then he could very well set up a "fighting religion", which he did. It seems likely that the occupations forces turned a blind-eye in this case, as can be seen by the fact that they accepted his flimsy explanation, and the fact that he borrowed the British Forces' (who were in charge of the island of Shikoku where he first started Shorinji Kempo) boxing ring and gloves for training and to give demonstrations. Thus Shorinji Kempo does have official status as a religion in Japan.
> ...


Hi,

The scuttlebutt/gossip about Shorinji Kempo is equally interesting. I have been fascinated by Shorinji Kempo since I first read about it in the 1968 edition of BLACKBELT MAGAZINE. 

YET - just last year I spoke with an elderly Chinese gentlemen (a Sifu from Beijing) in Boston's Chinatown (Tang People Street) about Doshin So and Shorinji Kempo and he had nothing polite to say.

He vehemently denied that Shorinji Kempo, 'Shaolin Fist' had anything at all to do with the Shaolin Temple. That the founder, Doshin So, was an active member of the Tempen Kai, the Japanese Secret Police, and he called it the 'Gestapo' and claimed Doshin So was involved in all sorts of atrocities against the Chinese people as a senior agent of the Kempen Tai.

The religion, Kongo Zen, which is practiced within Shorinji Kempo, is a thinly disguised attempt at ultra-nationalist indoctrination with Kongo Zen's emphasis on 'half for your self and half for others', the former Kempen Tai officer had allegedly set up Shorinji Kempo as a training camp for pro-Japan zealots. Doshin So has been said to say that the martial arts training of Shorinji Kempo was just bait to lure students for more important things.

Shorinji Kempo is supposed to have been based on Northern Chinese Shaolin Giwamon Fist, then Byakuren (White Lotus) Fist, and the grappling techniques of Chinese Pashi, but on observation it just seems to be a clear practice of linear karate-do and jujitsu techniques.

The Chinese sifu I spoke with wondered why Doshin So was never tried as a war criminal and was upset about the existance of Shorinji Kempo. This opinion of a very good kung fu sifu bothered me since I've always thought Shorinji Kempo was the Japanese version of the Shaolin Temple, and it is not. So there is an interesting story behind Shorinji Kempo after all.


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## John Bishop (Jul 7, 2004)

Yes, Shorinji Kempo has a very contraversial past.  Doshin So who by the way was born "Michiomi Nakano" did have a WWII past as a Japanese operative in Manchuria.  There appears to be very little written about what his duties were during the war.

As to his claim to teach a Shaolin based system, So was unable to prove any Chinese roots when sued in the Japanese courts by Chinese martial scholars in 1972.  As a result of this law suit, So agreed to name his system "Nippon Shorinji Kempo" meaning "Japanese Shaolin Fist-Way".

Many martial arts historians believe that So's "Nippon Shorinji Kempo" is nothing more than Aikijujitsu, a system that So did study and receive black belt ranking in.  

Funny thing, in 1947 Doshin So claimed to have been the 21st generation grandmaster of Shorinji Kempo.  This was about the same time that James Mitose was claiming to be the 21st generation grandmaster of "kenpo jiujutsu" or what he described to Thomas Young as "Shorinji Kenpo".


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## Shogun (Jul 7, 2004)

So, Doshin So could have been lying, or probably was lying, like a lot of Kenpo/Kempo Ryuha. Something I'd like to add however, is that the man you (kevin Walker) talked to about kenpo could've inflated the story a little bit because he was a "cop". I work for the Sheriff's office, and I here the stories of people that here "cop" and turn a story a little bit to make the police like villians.


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## John Bishop (Jul 7, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Something I'd like to add however, is that the man you (kevin Walker) talked to about kenpo could've inflated the story a little bit because he was a "cop". I work for the Sheriff's office, and I here the stories of people that here "cop" and turn a story a little bit to make the police like villians.


Are you saying that Doshin So was a "cop"? Having been one for the last 32 years, I've never heard of military intelligence operatives being referred to as "cops". The atrocities that the Japanese commited in Manchuria during WWII are well documented. And many of the Japanese who commited these atrocities were never found and punished. Time and death has erased much of this information, but it seems suspicious that someone who was a Japanese intelligence officer would return to Japan after the war, take a Korean name, and found a religious sect.


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## Shogun (Jul 7, 2004)

> Are you saying that Doshin So was a "cop"? Having been one for the last 32 years, I've never heard of military intelligence operatives being referred to as "cops".


I was simply refering to his occupation as a secret police officer. hence the "cop" word being in quotation marks.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 7, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> So, Doshin So could have been lying, or probably was lying, like a lot of Kenpo/Kempo Ryuha. Something I'd like to add however, is that the man you (kevin Walker) talked to about kenpo could've inflated the story a little bit because he was a "cop". I work for the Sheriff's office, and I here the stories of people that here "cop" and turn a story a little bit to make the police like villians.


Hi,

Yes, thank you, I did take into consideration that the elderly Chinese national whom I spoke with in Boston's Chinatown (a mile from where I was born and raised) was a little aggitated and therefore being less than objective.  He might have exaggerated some of his claims.

The trouble is, there is always a grain of truth in rumors, which makes a rumor a springboard for further research and verification.

Also, a military intelligence officer is seldom, if ever, referred to as a 'cop'.  Cops are civilians, military are not.

In WWII, the Kempen Tai, the Japanese secret police, were very successful in infiltrating Chinese secret societies.  Almost all of the Kempen Tai were members of the Japanese Black Dragon Society, a hard-core bunch of nationalist militants.  And the Kempen Tai were adept at extracting information from suspects, and I don't mean they put women's panties on top of a suspect's head to get it.  Doshin So was an active member of this group!


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## Shogun (Jul 7, 2004)

> Hi,
> 
> Yes, thank you, I did take into consideration that the elderly Chinese national whom I spoke with in Boston's Chinatown (a mile from where I was born and raised) was a little aggitated and therefore being less than objective. He might have exaggerated some of his claims.
> 
> ...


Thanks. By "Cop", I was refering to secret "police". I am familiar with "cops" being civilians, however. I am in training. (.....I am an Explorer)


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 8, 2004)

Kaiso So was waht might be more accurately defined as an "operative". He had spent enough time in China to be able to pass as Chinese (speaking the local dialects without Japanese accent), and was responsible for getting the gossip from behind the scenes, and relating the information to decision makers.

In his own writings and interviews, Sho recounted being disturbed by what he had seen -- and been responsible for -- in China, and believed there had to be a way to achieve internal peace through external training. Was he an ultra-nationalist? While servine in China, absolutely. Did he remain one? The consensus among NSK practitioners is a resounding NO. Rather, the story seems to go (and this is from conversations I've had with a couple of his direct students) that he had something of a conversion experience. Kongo Zen (also occasionally spelled konko zen) is practiced in japanese temples by people with nothing to do with Shorinji kempo training. It's a path that reiterates some of the simple "be nice to each other" lessons present in pretty much any major religion.

Are they exclusive to Japanese? Here in Los Angeles there is a NSK sensei (who looks a lot like the bearded wierdness of Kaiso) who accepted whole-heartedly an old friend of mine who is black as coal. I straggeled in on occasion, and was also welcomed (as long as I put my nose to the grindstone like evrrybody else...they don't like slackers). Now, if you understand the ultra-nationalist Japanese mentality, you also have to understand that it is innately deeply racist...Japanese are gods only true race, and all others are simply barbarians who lack the couth, development, and refined sophistication possesed by Japanese (their ideology, not mine). If So's ultra-nationalist leanings were infused into NSK, neither Sean or myself would have ever been allowed to set foot into that training hall. I merely tinkered; sean pursued it to middle-upper -dan ranks. With the Japanese disciples of Kaiso.

Stylistically? Always seemed to me like a mesh of boxing, some kicks from karate, and some nasty, mechanically-based interpretations of aiki joint manipulations. I've trained in several Japanese joint manip styles, and the sheer pain AND bodily control discovered in the Shorinji material is distinctly unlike any other aiki arts I've seen. Similar, but with just enough of a twist to make it different, and really, really unpleasant (you eventually learn to stretch your wrists into extremes of flexion, extension, and side deviations b/c the locks feel like you're going to explode if you do not have the requisite flexibility).

D.


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## John Bishop (Jul 8, 2004)

Would this "Sean" be Sean Cephas?


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## Mekugi (Jul 8, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Funny thing, in 1947 Doshin So claimed to have been the 21st generation grandmaster of Shorinji Kempo. This was about the same time that James Mitose was claiming to be the 21st generation grandmaster of "kenpo jiujutsu" or what he described to Thomas Young as "Shorinji Kenpo".


Woa....you've got something there.

It seems that there were different "kempo" coming out of the woodwork at that time. Tenshin Koryu Kempo sprang up in the same era. 

-R


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 10, 2004)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Would this "Sean" be Sean Cephas?


American Shorinji Te founder himself.  . Met in high school in fountain valley, and trained with him and his family on rare occasions...first lesson in getting hit reallly hard came from him and clan.

Last time I saw him, thought I'd pull a fast one and snare him in some BJJ...turns out his fathers sempai had been an avid BJJ-er, and passed it on to Sean. I really despise naturals; I gotta work my hiney off for small gains, and guys like sean are excellent to begin with, and still put the time in to get even better.

Oh well. Such is life, eh?

D.


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## Colin_Linz (Dec 26, 2004)

Seeing as there have been no replies here by a Shorinji Kempo kenshi I thought I might enter the discussion.

On the first question regarding fees.

Yes this is correct, we are not allowed to make money from teaching Shorinji Kempo. We do charge fees though as we have to cover overheads and buy equipment. This is because Doshin So believed that it was important for everyone to contribute to society, and not make money from teaching people how to fight. Another benefit is that only those that have a strong desire to teach do so.

On religion.

I dont believe Shorinji Kempo is registered as a religion anywhere outside Japan. While it was certainly true that at one time you needed to a member of the religious arm of Shorinji Kempo to receive training, it has not been so since the early seventies. The philosophy of Shorinji Kempo is more of a lifestyle philosophy and could work within any religion

Doshin So

Doshin So lived most of his early life in China, from about the age of twelve. He lost his father when he was eight, and his mother when he was about twelve. He then went to live in China with an uncle.

He studied kempo under two masters. After training under one master for some time he asked Doshin So to come and meet his teacher. After this Doshin So became Wen Lanshis student, eventually becoming his successor.

On Doshin Sos return to the Shaolin ssu many years later there was an old monk who remembered him from the old days. They have also placed a statue of him there. Many of the official functions in Japan are attended by representatives from the Shaolin ssu. Even in Jet Lis movie, The Shaolin Temple there were a number of Shorinji Kempo kenshi involved in the fight sequences, one notable kenshi was Yamazaki Sensei. In the late 1970s The Chinese government invited Doshin So back so that he could reintroduce Kempo to the Shaolin ssu. Unfortunately he died before he could complete this. None of this of course proves anything other than there is a good relationship between the Shaolin Temple and Shorinji Kempo.

Doshin So has been publicly critical in TV interviews and in print with some of the actions taken by the military in Manchuria. He has acted only with compassion for those less fortunate. It was his actions and those of his followers that cleaned out the Yakuza from the town of Tadotsu when he realised how they were tramping over the general populace.

Shorinji Kempo today is a re-systemisation of Doshin Sos life time of experience with budo, both Japanese and Chinese.

Shorinji Kempo as a nationalistic martial art.

I guess you could say that it was. It was the precise reason he started it. On his repatriation to Japan post war, he was struck by the utter despair and loss of confidence in the future that had taken root in the young people of the time. He wanted to teach them that they had the power to change their lives. Unfortunately they were not interested in listening to his lectures. He was despairing of this when he dreamed about Bodhidharma and how he used Indian Kempo to help teach Buddhist principles. He then thought, I will follow his footsteps. This is when he decided to use his knowledge of martial arts to draw the young in so he could teach them the lessons that he had learned through out his life. His goal was to restore pride in the nation both internally and internationally. So yes, it was initially a nationalist art form. He never expected it to become so huge (1.5 million people in 27 countries); however once it became obvious that Shorinji Kempo had struck a cord in people from all over the world he realised that changes would need to be made to accommodate all nations, not just Japan.

The Japanese have a saying. The mouth is the root of all evil. By this they mean that if you want the truth dont listen to what is said, but watch the actions. You only need to go to any Shorinji Kempo dojo or taikai and you will soon see that this notion of nationalistic is just so fare of the mark that you wonder how it started. Personally I think it started by people not bothering to experience Shorinji Kempo before writing about it. We dont even bow, Japanese kenshi included. We Gassho Rei; the Indian Buddhist greeting. We do this because it is a way of greeting without lowering yourself to the other person, it is an expression of equality. Not the sort of thing you would expect from an ultra nationalist.

If anyone would like to learn more about Shorinji Kempo Im more than happy to answer questions to the best of my ability, or you check out the links in my signature block. There are a number of Kaisos lectures on the WSKO site, read them before you make up your mind about what sort of a person he was.


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## Turner (Dec 30, 2004)

I am a former Shorinji Kempo student (Studied for three years.)

I spent three years training in Shorinji Kempo and never left white belt because of the rules placed on the instructor by the Shorinji Kempo Headquarters in Japan. My Instructor applied to become an instructor with headquarters and was required to run a non-profit organization. He could only charge what it would take to keep the class running. Furthermore there is a stipulation that states that the instructor can not promote his students until he's gathered a group of 10 or more. Because this particular class was being held in a limited access building, the class size rarely went over 5. After three years of training, the instructor got really frustrated with the art and gave up.

My instructor had trained in Japan while stationed there in the Air Force. He found that the Shorinji Kempo headquarters was very biased when it came to giving out rank. He noticed that his fellow Japanese classmates where getting promoted above him and went to his instructor to figure out why. His instructor told him to take it up with Headquarters. He was scheduled to go to headquarters for his 3rd Dan Test and after passing the test he went before the board to see why it took him twice as long to get his rank as it did the Japanese kids that he'd been wiping the floor with. They basically explained that because he wasn't Japanese he wouldn't be able to understand the martial arts and so the time requirements for a non-Japanese is double that for a Japanese. He started to argue with them, but they said either accept it or quit.

There are many classes in America where the instructor has split from the main Shorinji Kempo organization because of the way that they treat non-Japanese. I tried to convince my instructor to do the same, but he felt that it wouldn't be the honorable thing to do and wound up quitting for good.

The art is pretty interesting. As someone said earlier, the techniques seem to be designed to cause the most painful joint locks. However the politics are some of the worse I've seen in any martial art.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Seeing as there have been no replies here by a Shorinji Kempo kenshi I thought I might enter the discussion.
> 
> On the first question regarding fees.
> 
> ...


    On fees:



    If thats the case then we have a problem.

    Mr. Tamura, (see website below) of Yokosuka Japan charges fees.

http://wsko.econ-net.or.jp/b-report/107.html

    I know this because my secretaries take the fees ($35.00 a month) for his classhe only has 2 or 3 students though. 


    On Religion: 
    This is also a problem I will have to bring to the attention of my superiors.

    Since we are in Japan an it is a recognized religion here we cant have him teaching on a Government facility.


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## Colin_Linz (Dec 30, 2004)

As a current student with a 16 year history of Shorinji Kempo I would offer this in reply to Turner.

Its true that you need to have at least 10 students to start a branch, obviously until you are an official branch master you cant grade anyone. The reason for this is so students dont get disadvantaged by clubs opening and then closing because they are not being able to sustain their operation. If you have had a group of 10 people training for more than a year then you have a good chance of succeeding. I think it is also a way of ensuring that the instructor really has an idea of what he is committed to before formally doing so. This is one of there quality ensurance processes.

It is an unfortunate reality that some people care more about rankings than what they are learning. I know of Karate systems that give you a black belt after 1 or 2 years. I would not have a problem with any kyu graded Shorinji Kempo kenshi doing randori with them as Im sure they will be equipped well enough to deal with it.

It is true also that Japanese students initially progress further in rankings quicker. This has nothing to do with the martial art side of things, but rather the philosophy. Because much the philosophy is common to Japanese society, Japanese students start at san kyu, while others start at go kyu. It should be noted that this requirement is the same even if you are from Japanese parents living in another country. In this case you maybe Japanese, but you will still start at gokyu, the same as everyone else. What you will notice if you examine longer term kenshi is that it no longer makes a difference. The kenshi that has attended the most study sessions, and has trained the most hours will be the higher ranked, no matter if they are gaijin (foreigners) or nihonjin (Japanese). I would have disagree quite strongly to the notion that WSKO is racial biased. Anyone that has been to Hombu, or trained under their instructors will have felt the warmth and friendship from them no matter what their rank or position. Just check out some of Doshin Sos lectures from the WSKO site if you want to find out where there hearts are. There is a link in my signature box.

I know of very few kenshi to willingly leave Shorinji Kempo to start their own styles, there have been some that have been expelled, and some that leave because they feel they should be advancing faster. If youre after quick gradings, then Shorinji Kempo is not the place to be, Japanese or not. Most kenshi recognise that they can learn much more through staying, as the technical elements have tremendous depth. I would also disagree with WSKO being political, it would be the least effected organisation I have been with. There is no external bickering, there maybe at board meetings, but it never shows. I guess the telling thing here is that it is a huge organisation with 1.5 million members in about 30 countries, it is rock solid, there is no one running off starting up alternative governing bodies like so many other arts. This speaks volume for the satisfaction of its members. In fact, I believe it is the best martial art in the world, bar none. But then I could be biased.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Let me say this first.

 While I have friends that like and practice Shorinji Kempo I do not care for Shorinjis fabricated history, and the demi-God status placed on Do Shin So, nor the over zealous attitude of most of the practitioners I have met in Japan.

     Their attitude has basically been Shorinji is the best; you should quite your art and join us





     On Do Shin So



 Much of his fabricated training and martial history has been exposed by various sourcesthe BBC being one of them. Do Shin Sos engaging and then kicking out the Yakuza and moneylenders after WWII was little more than a turf war..

 Do Shin So and Shorinji Kempo are also connected to Sasakawa Ryoichi who was a real scumbag, Class A war criminal- same as many high ranking Nazis- and The head of one of the largest Ultra Right groups in Japan..he also claimed to be the last living fascist.


  Found here:

http://www.etext.org/Politics/Arm.The.Spirit/Antifa/japan.far-right

   Shortly after the end of the Second World War, Japan's
 ultra-right reformed itself, thanks to some important allies such
 as Prime Minister Nobusuke Kishi (1957-60), who had co-signed the
 Declaration of War against the United States and Great Britain.
 Kishi, while serving time in Sugamo prison for war crimes, met
 Yoshio Kodama, who later resigned his post as Justice Minister on
 account of his contacts to the far-right and organized crime, and
*Ryoichi Sasakawa*, godfather of Japan's motor boat sports industry
 and advisor to "Reverend" Su Myung Mun, whose Unification Church
 has provided weapons to Japanese right-wingers. As a fighting
 force against the left, the Japanese far-right provides an
 invaluable service to the Yakuza as well as the corporations.  
 The police are also present on the highway. But neither are the
 cars in the right-wing convoy searched for weapons nor are
 people's identity cards checked. The leaders on both sides know
 each other well. The topic of right-wing violence is only given a
 few lines of mention in annual police reports. The murder of
 Tomohiro Kojiro, a reporter for the daily newspaper Asahi
 Shinbun', on May 4, 1987 is not even mentioned. And it's not only
 communists who think that the police and fascists work together
 when it comes to observing and disrupting the activities of the
 Communist Party of Japan (CPJ).


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## Colin_Linz (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> On fees:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Robert,



On fees - We are not supposed to make money from teaching Shorinji Kempo, do you know if he is pocketing it, or is it going to pay expenses? He is allowed to cover any costs that he may incur through the teaching and running of the branch but not make money from it.



On religion  Yes that is correct, it is why Shorinji Kempo have separated into 4 entities, each with their own responsibility. It is also why the new Tokuhon has removed all the religious references that were in the Fukudokuhon. What will happen there is that this sensei wont be teaching the religious side of it, but I think you will find that if the students attend Hombu the will still be taught it. There are also some branches not in Government facilities that are not a Dojo, but rather a Doin. They will still be teaching the religious side.



Hope that alleviates any concerns you may have had.


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## Colin_Linz (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Let me say this first.
> 
> While I have friends that like and practice Shorinji Kempo I do not care for Shorinjis fabricated history, and the demi-God status placed on Do Shin So, nor the over zealous attitude of most of the practitioners I have met in Japan.
> 
> ...


Robert,



1/ But Robert, it is and you should. 



2/ I hope your not referring to the BBC Way of the warrior series, they made no mention of a shady past. Whatever his past he seems to have acquired some skill and knowledge from somewhere. Do you think the techniques are valid?



3/ I found no mention of Shorinji Kempo in the link you provided. It is a concern to hear these stories, but I will temper it with my own personnel experiences with the various teachers and students I have met over the years. I have heard that he experienced a sort of epiphany so perhaps if what you are saying is true he may have changed. Certainly there is no hint of right wing attitudes from WSKO or anyone that I have dealt with over the years, or indeed his lectures.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Robert,
> 
> 2/ I hope your not referring to the BBC Way of the warrior series, they made no mention of a shady past. Whatever his past he seems to have acquired some skill and knowledge from somewhere. Do you think the techniques are valid?
> 
> ...





   Fees:



   He has no overhead since he pats no rent here; in fact all his advertising is paid for by the US Military. 





   2) BBC did sort of allude to certain more unpleasant aspects of the organization. They didnt come out and make any direct charges; however, I did hear the Shorinji Honbu tried to take them to court. I have read other articles on Shorinji as well. 

   About the techniquewell some of it I dont care for much. Specifically blocking kicks with a shuto type hand movement..not good on the fingers. Some of the moves are very Aikido-esque as wellsome of the locks and throws are good.  The main thing that turned me off though was the attitude of most of the Japanese and a few foreigners that practice the art. The Japanese tended to be very right wing and the foreigners tended to be grasshopper wannabees. 



   3) The BBC documentary shows Sasakawa giving a speech at one of the tournaments and mentions his connection to Shorinji. I posted the info on Sasakawa to give some background on him.


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## Colin_Linz (Dec 31, 2004)

Robert,

1/ Sorry I have no answer for you there, all I can say is what is supposed to happen. I suppose you could do anything as long as it didnt get out.

Totally separate from this case is that sometimes Hombu allow people to make a living from it in special cases. I understand that Mizuno sensei is payed for his teaching. I think this relates to him being asked to go to the UK and develop Shorinji Kempo there, which he has done with a measure of success.

2/ I dont recall any alluding to anything, I have the series and the book. They did mention that an organisation with the size and power of WSKO could be a force to be reckoned with, but all the sensei that they spoke to seemed deeply aware of their responsibility. I had heard that Hombu were not too keen on the way some of the philosophy was translated.

I think by the shuto actioned block you would be referring to shita uke. The fingers should be point upwards. It is quite effective against chudan tsuki and mawashi geri to sammai, It wouldnt be my first choice against jun or gyaku geri. So far I havent injured my fingers.

I wouldnt expect you to agree with all the techniques. I expect I would think some of yours seem odd, after all we both have little experience with each others art, and will be looking from different points of view. I was just after some feedback on your thoughts in regard to if they were a realistic budo type technique, or off with the fairies. I have seem some strange Karate type techniques that dont look like Karate, but something someone has just invented from watching too many movies. Even though I dont do Karate, I feel I can recognise a proper technique over one that is fictional.

Im sorry to hear about the bad attitudes you have experienced. I havent experienced that. Ive even had one ex bussen student live with me for six months. I have never seen it reflected in all the different sensei from Hombu that Ive trained under. I guess people are people everywhere, some good some bad. Im glad to hear that you do have friends that are Shorinji kenshi. Tell me, do they try to get you to defect to the dark side. 

3/ Ah, I remember him. He was the one that spoke at a taikai. Big round of applause after saying something as riveting as. And Im paraphrasing here; without respect and obedience to your parents everything else is worthless. He did seem full of himself.

Doshin So spoke often on the value of human relationships, and how you could accomplish things better when working with people. Perhaps he saw this relationship was necessary to achieve his goals. I say this because I cannot see any hint of right wing philosophy within WSKO, its instructors or Doshin Sos philosophy.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 5, 2005)

Man, I just got through reading all the posts on this topic and I have one question. Was Doshin So and James Mitose seperated at birth? I can't believe all the parallels in their lives! Very strange..............almost seems like that was a trend of those times, lol.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 5, 2005)

Sorry, I know little about James Mitose other than some talk about murdering some people. Chinese arts themselves seem to be difficult to satisfactorily trace due to the number of competing arts, and the number of Government attempts to wipe them out. In Doshin Sos case there is ample evidence of the time he spent in China and it was extensive. Did he become the head of the Northern Shaolin Giwaken style? I dont know, but the teacher he said he learned under is verifiable. What I do know is that he must have studied something, and that the relationship between the Shaolin Temple and Shorinji Kempo is a good one. I dont think you could explain Shorinji Kempo by his study of Hakko Ryu Jujutsu, he studied it only for two years on his return to Japan, while forming his own style. The depth of the art is too deep; you would need to be some sort of martial art genius to absorb that much in two years. As to the claim it is related to some Karate style, I just dont see the links in technique, they are too dissimilar. He also never claimed that what he taught was Shaolin Chaun Fa, but a systemisation of his total knowledge gained through all his studies. 

His naming of Shorinji Kempo was more to do with his aim at using budo to gather and educate the youth of Japan, just as Daruma had used it to teach the monks of the Shaolin Temple. He had found on his return that his countries people had lost their will to live, or the belief in themselves or their country. He wanted to help remake Japan into a nation that could be proud of itself, and its standing internationally. Much of what he taught at the time may sound strange now when taken out of context of what was happening at the time. While things like oaths and pledges were written long before Shorinji Kempo became an International art. It was a complete surprise to Doshin So that it did so. Since that time these oaths and pledges have been modified to include the rest of the world not just Japan.

My experience with Shorinji Kempo and its teachers has shown a deep respect for all people, and a genuine concern for others. I dont think that this attitude could have come from a teacher that didnt feel this way.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 11, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Sorry, I know little about James Mitose other than some talk about murdering some people. Chinese arts themselves seem to be difficult to satisfactorily trace due to the number of competing arts, and the number of Government attempts to wipe them out. In Doshin Sos case there is ample evidence of the time he spent in China and it was extensive. Did he become the head of the Northern Shaolin Giwaken style? I dont know, but the teacher he said he learned under is verifiable. What I do know is that he must have studied something, and that the relationship between the Shaolin Temple and Shorinji Kempo is a good one. I dont think you could explain Shorinji Kempo by his study of Hakko Ryu Jujutsu, he studied it only for two years on his return to Japan, while forming his own style. The depth of the art is too deep; you would need to be some sort of martial art genius to absorb that much in two years. As to the claim it is related to some Karate style, I just dont see the links in technique, they are too dissimilar. He also never claimed that what he taught was Shaolin Chaun Fa, but a systemisation of his total knowledge gained through all his studies.
> 
> His naming of Shorinji Kempo was more to do with his aim at using budo to gather and educate the youth of Japan, just as Daruma had used it to teach the monks of the Shaolin Temple. He had found on his return that his countries people had lost their will to live, or the belief in themselves or their country. He wanted to help remake Japan into a nation that could be proud of itself, and its standing internationally. Much of what he taught at the time may sound strange now when taken out of context of what was happening at the time. While things like oaths and pledges were written long before Shorinji Kempo became an International art. It was a complete surprise to Doshin So that it did so. Since that time these oaths and pledges have been modified to include the rest of the world not just Japan.
> 
> My experience with Shorinji Kempo and its teachers has shown a deep respect for all people, and a genuine concern for others. I dont think that this attitude could have come from a teacher that didnt feel this way.



Hi Colin, here were my observations in comparing him to Mitose from reading everyone's posts. Mitose allegedly left Hawaii for Japan as a child (4) to live with his grandparents and be taught the family art which was originally rooted in China from his grandfather. Doshin So left Japan as a child (12) although somewhat older than the young Mitose, to live in China with his uncle and was trained in Shaolin Kung Fu. Both spent 17 years studying the art. Mitose went back to Hawaii and began officially teaching in 1942 and wrote a book describing his system in 1947 entitled: What is Self Defense Kenpo Jiu Jitsu, although Mitose originally called his art 'Shorinji' Kempo. It was the first art to have the pairing off of practitioners to practice and learn individual self defense techniques. Mitose claimed to be the 21st decendant of his Shaolin inspired family art. Doshin So left China, went back to Japan and began teaching an art he called Shrorinji Kenpo of which he stated he was the 21 decendant. So's art also had the 'pairing off' method of practicing self defense techniques. Mitose's art appears to be an eclectic blend of Okinawan kempo karate and some form of an oriental grappling art, possibly Okinawan torite and/or Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Doshin So's art has been described by some on this forum as a blend of linear Japanese karate techniques and jiu jitsu while others felt it was a very effective blending of aikijitsu. Nevertheless, the relationship of an eclectic blending of a grappling art with a punch/strike and kick art are predominate in both systems. There is much talk of Mitose as being a U.S. Naval secret intelligence agent. He has used religion as part of his focus on the martial arts and has been accused of using cult like methods to get his students (Terry Lee case) to do his bidding. Doshin So's organization is based on religion. He has also been accused of being a secret police and military intelligence agent. The above posts also stated he ran a cult like operation using martial arts and religion to get his students to do his bidding. Mitose was investigated for many illegal activites and crimes against the eldery including conspiracy to murder and extortion. It has been said by some that Doshin So should have been charged with war crimes. Mitose preached humanity, love and kindness to one another while having a background of treachery, violence and deceit. Doshin So's life appears to be clouded in the same veil of controversary. Masayoshi Mitose changed his name, Kaiso So also changed his. Both claim a lineage to Bodhidharma and roots to Shaolin Kung Fu. Mitose's lineage and training is still somewhat a mystery. According to documents, Doshin So was taken to court in 1972 by the Chinese and couldn't prove a Shaolin Chinese connection to his martial arts and was legally forced to change it's name to 'Nippon' (Japanese) Shorinji Kenpo. In all seriousness Colin, like I said, these two men appear to have been seperated at birth! Respectfully, Prof. Joe Shuras


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## The Kai (Jan 11, 2005)

I often wonder if we did 'I went to a far away mysterious place and learned/mastered/inherited a unheard of system as old as the martial arts itself'  how many would enter??

Tod


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 11, 2005)

Mr. Mitose, one is sorry to say, was convicted of conspiracy to commit murder and died in San Quentin. He'd apparently gotten one of his senior students (such as they were) to climb in an old couple's window late at night with a screwdriver: they owed him money, or so Mitose believed.

There is what sure looks like a very solid, reliable--and at times caustic--chapter with very good discussions of "So Doshin," and the style in Donn Draeger's "The Martial Arts and Ways of Japan: Modern Bujutsu and Budo," (New York and Tokyo: Weatherhill, 1996), 162-172.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 11, 2005)

A Japanese named Nakano Michiomi -- he later changed his name to So Doshin -- incorporates his martial art school as a Kongo Zen Buddhist religious order. (So said that he taught martial arts mostly as a way of attracting young people to Buddhism, and that it was the latter, not the martial arts, that would make them better people.) However, the tax breaks given religious orders were probably a consideration, too. Until 1972, So said that he was the twenty-first grandmaster of an esoteric northern Shaolin system called Iher Man Thuen. What caused him to change his mind was a Japanese court ruling that his style was not Chinese, but instead a mixture of karate (perhaps Wado-ryu) and jujutsu (perhaps Hakko-ryu). Consequently, the styles name was changed from "Shorinji Kempo," meaning "Shaolin Temple kung fu," to "Nippon Shorinji Kempo," meaning "Japanese Shaolin Fist-Way."


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 11, 2005)

Incidentally, this stuff about tracing one's lineage back to a) Bodhidharma/Daruma/Ma To, or whatever, or b) "the," Shaolin Temple, is pretty much bogus. 

As Draeger and several others have discussed (please also see Stanley Henning's article in the current, "Journal of Asian Martial Arts"), these are romanticized legends developed and passed on by various 18th and 19th century sources with varying motives, as well as by a series of popular novels in China.

It's the equivalent, apparently, of coming around in a few hundred years, and claiming to trace one's lineage back to Kwai Chang Kane.

There are similar mythologies running around loose in American kenpo--as well as a whole host of tangles around Mitose and Mr. Chow. Among these are at least one set of schools whose founder claims that Mr. Mitose taught--and enlightened--him, through the bars at San Q.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

Changing your name when becoming a Buddhist monk is a fairly normal happening in Japan. In Doshin Sos case he used partly the Chinese rendering of his name and Doshin, which within the Buddhist context means keeper of the path or way.

I have never read Draegers book. From accounts there are many inaccuracies. There certainly appears to be a number of people that believe the Bodhidharma story to be false, even Doshin So says this in his book Shorinji Kempo, its philosophy and techniques. It was and is considered by many as true within the Chinese Buddhist and martial arts communities. It should also be understood that anything to do with Chinese martial arts is hard to prove. Various Chinese government have conducted policies of eradication of martial arts in China. The last one was in 1900; at this time they killed the teachers and destroyed the schools. This one was very effective and eliminated many practitioners and makes reliable analysis difficult.

The Shaolin Temple and Shorinji Kempo have a very good relationship. They send representatives to many of our important functions and they have a statue of Doshin So at the temple. This of course proves nothing, but it does demonstrate a lack of acrimony that you would expect if someone were lying about you.

I can understand the reference to our Juho as Aikijutsu, but there are some key elements of difference that an untrained observer would not pick up on. As for Goho being a form of Karate it is just way of the mark. Sure they both feature punching and kicking, but tennis and badminton both feature hitting something over a net with a bat; however they are very different sports. The reference to Goho being linear is also way of the mark. I have seen no resemblance to Karate or for that matter American Kenpo in our Goho. There are also no records of Doshin So studying Karate, at least with the Aikijutsu referance there are records of him studying Hakko Ryu for two years, and he himself said he learned some Jujutsu from his uncle when he was young. I find the thought that Doshin So learned the techniques of Shorinji Kempo from two years distance study of Hakko Ryu and undocumented study of Karate to quite ludicrous. The body of knowledge is huge; no one could have learned this in such a short time. It should also be understood that Aikijutsu has its roots in China as well, so similarities may be expected.

It should also be noted that he never said that what he taught was the Shaolin Kempo that he learned. What he was taught in China was all single form, and had no structure to the techniques. What he did when returning to Japan was restructure and systemise his lifes experience with budo. By this I dont mean just lump it all together. He reengineered it so that it was compatible as a holistic art and all the techniques worked in harmony with each other. The naming of Shorinji Kempo was more to do with what he was trying to do in Japan; he wanted to recreate the Shaolin experience and learning method.

Doshin So references Boddhdarma when talking about the history of the Shaolin Temple, as would any of the monks that came from there. He also references Bodhidharma when explaining why he began Shorinji Kempo. On his return to Japan he found that many young people had lost the will to live and were deeply depressed. He wanted to do something about this, but when trying to talk to them he found they were not interested in hearing what it was he was saying. It was this quandary that lead to his dream about Boddhdarma, and his using martial arts to teach aspects of Buddhism to the monks at the Shaolin Temple. This is why he formed Shorinji Kempo. It is a form of Gyo, a way of disciplining yourself. Its purpose at the time was to teach his young Japanese students to be strong and stand up for what was right, that only they had the power to change their fate and that they could accomplish more if they worked together and helped each other. He was always very open about this; it was not something that was a secret. When Shorinji Kempo became popular internationally it surprised him, he never considered that other people would be interested in it. At this stage he recognised the need to include all nations within its Philosophy.

Shorinji Kempo was designed to act as an experiential learning tool. You cannot learn it from a book, video, or single form practice. The only way to learn it is with the co-operative help of a training partner as it requires a lot of experimentation and feed back. For those that learn to help each other, progress can be made. While those that think in terms of winning and beating the other person will never learn the technique. Is this really a bad thing? He was up front about his reasons for developing it the whole time. 

Much of what he said in the early days should be read with and understood within the context of the time, post WW2. It appeared nationalistic because in a way it was, he was trying to do some good for his country. Is this a bad thing? Rather than judge Shorinji Kempo by other peoples misunderstood writing have a look on the WSKO web site, read about it. Have a look at his translated lectures. Have a look at what WSKO does. Most importantly get along to a dojo and meet the people that train in it. All these are a product of Doshin So, and as such will reflect his teaching.

The cult word came up in a previous post. I have seen Shorinji Kempo described as this before. In some ways I can understand this. It is an organisation of dedicated people. There is the reference to religion. I think the best way to understand why we are not one is to look at the intent of cults, and how their leaders demand absolute power. Doshin So always taught that people should independently study the world around them, that knowledge was the real power, that they should always question what they learned and that only they had the power to change their lives, not god or anyone else. This doesnt sound like much of cult leader.

Shorinji Kempo is a very highly respected martial art in Japan; it is considered one of the cultural arts of Japan and is a member of the Budokan.

Sorry about the length of the post, I tried to keep it short. If you would like me to elaborate on any areas let me know.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I often wonder if we did 'I went to a far away mysterious place and learned/mastered/inherited a unheard of system as old as the martial arts itself' how many would enter??
> 
> Tod


Many arts have these stories about there beginnings. In the end they matter little to the popularity. What makes them popular is the art, and wether people find value in its study.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> A Japanese named Nakano Michiomi -- he later changed his name to So Doshin -- incorporates his martial art school as a Kongo Zen Buddhist religious order. (So said that he taught martial arts mostly as a way of attracting young people to Buddhism, and that it was the latter, not the martial arts, that would make them better people.) However, the tax breaks given religious orders were probably a consideration, too. Until 1972, So said that he was the twenty-first grandmaster of an esoteric northern Shaolin system called Iher Man Thuen. What caused him to change his mind was a Japanese court ruling that his style was not Chinese, but instead a mixture of karate (perhaps Wado-ryu) and jujutsu (perhaps Hakko-ryu). Consequently, the styles name was changed from "Shorinji Kempo," meaning "Shaolin Temple kung fu," to "Nippon Shorinji Kempo," meaning "Japanese Shaolin Fist-Way."


I know the story of the court case. I have heard a number of conflicting versions of it, but have never read a transcript of it so I cant make a reliable statement regarding it.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Colin, here were my observations in comparing him to Mitose from reading everyone's posts. Mitose allegedly left Hawaii for Japan as a child (4) to live with his grandparents and be taught the family art which was originally rooted in China from his grandfather. Doshin So left Japan as a child (12) although somewhat older than the young Mitose, to live in China with his uncle and was trained in Shaolin Kung Fu. Both spent 17 years studying the art. Mitose went back to Hawaii and began officially teaching in 1942 and wrote a book describing his system in 1947 entitled: What is Self Defense Kenpo Jiu Jitsu, although Mitose originally called his art 'Shorinji' Kempo. It was the first art to have the pairing off of practitioners to practice and learn individual self defense techniques. Mitose claimed to be the 21st decendant of his Shaolin inspired family art. Doshin So left China, went back to Japan and began teaching an art he called Shrorinji Kenpo of which he stated he was the 21 decendant. So's art also had the 'pairing off' method of practicing self defense techniques. Mitose's art appears to be an eclectic blend of Okinawan kempo karate and some form of an oriental grappling art, possibly Okinawan torite and/or Japanese Jiu Jitsu. Doshin So's art has been described by some on this forum as a blend of linear Japanese karate techniques and jiu jitsu while others felt it was a very effective blending of aikijitsu. Nevertheless, the relationship of an eclectic blending of a grappling art with a punch/strike and kick art are predominate in both systems. There is much talk of Mitose as being a U.S. Naval secret intelligence agent. He has used religion as part of his focus on the martial arts and has been accused of using cult like methods to get his students (Terry Lee case) to do his bidding. Doshin So's organization is based on religion. He has also been accused of being a secret police and military intelligence agent. The above posts also stated he ran a cult like operation using martial arts and religion to get his students to do his bidding. Mitose was investigated for many illegal activites and crimes against the eldery including conspiracy to murder and extortion. It has been said by some that Doshin So should have been charged with war crimes. Mitose preached humanity, love and kindness to one another while having a background of treachery, violence and deceit. Doshin So's life appears to be clouded in the same veil of controversary. Masayoshi Mitose changed his name, Kaiso So also changed his. Both claim a lineage to Bodhidharma and roots to Shaolin Kung Fu. Mitose's lineage and training is still somewhat a mystery. According to documents, Doshin So was taken to court in 1972 by the Chinese and couldn't prove a Shaolin Chinese connection to his martial arts and was legally forced to change it's name to 'Nippon' (Japanese) Shorinji Kenpo. In all seriousness Colin, like I said, these two men appear to have been seperated at birth! Respectfully, Prof. Joe Shuras


OK, I see where you are heading. I was not aware of Mitose and his claims. Yes they are similar in some ways. Would you say that there may have been, shall we say inspiration from one to the other in regards to their claims? If so, who do you think was the inspiration to the other?


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 11, 2005)

Please give details of exactly where Draeger's books--which appear scrupulous about their handling of sources in a fashion that is unfortunately very uncommon in martial arts circles--are inaccurate. Draeger, among other things, went back to what there are of "Bodhidharma's" texts, in which his mediation and physical technique is explained--no martial arts practices to speak of. And far from denigrating Shorinji, Draeger speaks rather highly of its ethics and aspirations to close the same chapter. One might prefer better documentation of sources, however: the books have no bibliography.

Second, please explain how you're also explaining away Henning's similar analysis, based on different sources.

It also seems very clear that, "Doshin So"--very similarly to Morehei Ueshiba--was a member of a very militaristic--indeed fascist--Japanese society.  

The histories of martial arts--all of them--are deeply entwined with a great deal of thuggery and criminality. It is of benefit to noone, when we pretend otherwise.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 11, 2005)

In support of Mr. Linz & Shorinji Kempo, the juho are a magnitude more complex than the standard JJJ wrist entanglements. There are some similarities, but then again, there are substantial differences. You can get through a jujutsu wrists session, and be alright the next day. Shorinji kempo wrists training is absolutely excruciating. After being through even a little bit, you can almost nap through standard JJJ entanglement.

The goho probably resembles american boxing waaay more than the linear karate schools. And then there's that push-down check they do at the end of every technique...chances are it's a stylistic flare put out there by Kaiso So, but I've not seen any othger Japanese kempo or karate school whip it.

Stirring the pot,

Dave


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Please give details of exactly where Draeger's books--which appear scrupulous about their handling of sources in a fashion that is unfortunately very uncommon in martial arts circles--are inaccurate. Draeger, among other things, went back to what there are of "Bodhidharma's" texts, in which his mediation and physical technique is explained--no martial arts practices to speak of. And far from denigrating Shorinji, Draeger speaks rather highly of its ethics and aspirations to close the same chapter. One might prefer better documentation of sources, however: the books have no bibliography.
> 
> Second, please explain how you're also explaining away Henning's similar analysis, based on different sources.
> 
> ...


As to Draeger, I have never read his works. I have just read and heard from others that they have some inaccuracies. I believe this is with some other arts, not only Shorinji Kempo. From my perspective I would rather judge Shorinji Kempo from my experience with it rather than someone who had little knowledge of it, and their interpretation. I, of course dont expect others to trust my word either.



As to Henning. Once again I havent read his works. If you are referring to him in relation to the Bodhidharma story, I have not dismissed him. I have merely stated that it is a story to which many Chinese Buddhist and Martial artists accept. This is not saying that I believe them, but rather it is what they believe. To be honest Im inclined towards a bit of a mix of both. Doshin So spent many years in China and was quite fluent in Chinese. He is regarded as being very learned regarding written Chinese. Being a monk in China for so long and his interest in Martial Arts, Buddhism and Human History, it would be reasonable to expect that he had done considerable research himself.



It is very true that martial arts had a rough history in Japan; however this was before budo. Budo was developed to separate its practitioners from the violent actions of past martial artists. As for the character of people like Doshin So or Morehei Ueshiba, I prefer to judge them by there actions and what they taught, I think it gives a truer representation of what type of person they are. They both loved their country, is that so bad. They both taught self defence with the very strong morale code that demanded that compassion should be given to the attacker, is that what it means to a fascist? As I have said before, I can see no hint of fascism or right wing behaviour in Shorinji Kempo, neither the organisation or its teachers, even at the highest level.



So sensei (Doshin Sos son in law) was telling a story at a training session a couple of months ago of how he first met Doshin So. It was when he was very young and had only just started training. He was leaving a place, I cant remember where, when Doshin So entered. At this time Doshin So needed a cane to walk. Non-the less he stoped, put his cane to rest, and gave the young So sensei a two handed gassho rei. So sensei was impressed by this solum gesture of respect to him, a mere boy. This description doesnt appear to fit the image of some right wing fascist. Just as his lectures dont fit, or the ideals and teachings of Kongo Zen dont fit. By the way we use gassho rei, not bowing because it is a form of respect that demonstrates equality between each other unlike bowing. This too would seem some distance him from being a right wing fascist.



People will write or say things for whatever reason they have, me included. If you want to find out the truth look at the actions, not the words. Actions will eventually tell you the truth.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

Robert,

I thought I should give you some reference that may explain my coldness towards Draeger. The link below is to a thread on ebudo. I have seen similar threads related to Japanese budo and Draeger elsewhere.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19785&highlight=draeger


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 11, 2005)

I interviewed a a guy who might be considered a "senior" in Shorinji. Regarding the right wing fascist thing, he had some interesting offerings. I'll precede that I have/had no way of confirming or disconfirming them, but this was with a Japanese man who trained with So many years ago.

He WAS a right winged fascist during his initial stay in China. Much of what he saw doen by his fellow Japanese righties, to the Chinese people (including the families of friends he had made as an expatriot) caused him to switch sides of the fence. He was an operative for the Japanese government, and provided the Japanese army with some of the information they used to invade the territory, and commit war crimes. Seeing the war crimes, and knowing his intel supplied the perps with the info they needed to commit them, messed with his head. So he opted for change.

Some Chinese hold no animosity towards him (they might even advocate for statues at temples). Some, having looked into his history of service to his country as a mole living in China, do (they might advocate for lawsuits). Kaiso was no angel in his life, but attempted (supposedly) to redeem himself.

Mitose had no such history to redeem, and while his lineage was questionable, was running scams of some sort up to his incarceration.  So had a history to redeem, and -- by contrast -- was not affiliated with ner-do-wells to his final days, as was Mitose. Even if the lives of the men, and their lineages, were shady, they ended their decades on the planet doing very different work, surrounded by very different types of men. One without remorse, continuing to claim innocence; one deeply remorseful, hoping to provide Japanese youth with an alternative to nationalist, militaristic pride. Still questionable in his history, but passing from this life in a different context.

That's gotta count for something.

Dave


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 11, 2005)

Dave thanks for the support. I have not heard this explanation before. It is one I would lend credence to because of the number of lectures and TV interviews he did renouncing Japans actions on the Chinese mainland. He was very focused on developing Japan into a nation that would be respected internationally. His favourite saying was the person, the person, everything depends on the quality of the person. He believed that race or religion had nothing to do with how leaders treat their people, but rather the quality of the leader. He used the example of Sudia Arabia under its old leader and Dubia. If you like you can make it current and go with Saddam and Iraq and that of Dubia, both countries are lead by people of the same race and religious background; however the way they treat their people, and manage their countries income is worlds apart.

He believed the Japanese had forgotten how to act with warmth to each other, and needed to take some lessons from other countries. He was quite openly critical of their human development. No doubt this created some problems for him, but he was very much a man of his convictions and very much an individual in a society where this was unusual.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 11, 2005)

Not buying. 

The cited thread from e-budo complains about Draeger's interpretation of the relationship between religious beliefs, martial arts and politics in pre-war Japan, and suggests that his argument about (for example) Buddhism and martial arts being directly connected to the rise of Japanese fascism is mere cultural bias on his part. 

No facts to counter Draeger's arguments or facts are given; there's a simple denial, which is what one has also seen elsewhere.

Really, it seems blind-as-a-batism to claim that religion and the arts were in no serious way connected to militarism and indeed fascism before the war. For one thing, both "Doshin So," and Morehei Ueshiba went to China during the late 1920s for right-wing purposes--John Stevens' "Abundant Peace," a biography of the founder of aikido written from an extremely-sympathetic perspective, even claims that Ueshiba was in China with a right-wing imperialist group, trying to take the country over, when he experienced the enlightenment fundamental to aikido. 

Donn Draeger--one of those American military men who travelled to Asia and fell in love with the arts--spent his life (quite literally; when he tied, they had to pass the hat to get enough money to put up a marker) travelling, studying, writing about the arts he loved. I've seen video of him moving with a sword; I've read about his judo ability. If he's wrong, so be it--but the man deserves a little more than a glib dismissal. He deserves a little proof.

What concerns me are these recurrent attempts to sanitize (for whose protection?) the history of the arts. Which certainly isn't confined to monasteries, even if we whitewash the somewhat-tatty history of the several Shaolins.

Of course this doesn't necessarily take a thing from the arts as they actually are--and if you'd read the Draeger chapter on Shorinji, that's exactly what he says: "Its spiritual and ethical values are admirable, socially acceptable not only to the Japanese but to people of other countries as well." (171-72, already cited)

And by the way, a lot of the stuff written here about Shorinji kenpo is either coming direct from Draeger's books, or from some parent source that both he and these writers are using. 

Read the books. he may be wrong, but if there are better written and researched, more-beautiful books on martial arts written from a more-knowledgeable and sympathetic perspective, they're awfully well hidden.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

Robert,

I will endeavour to track down a copy and read it. It is wrong of me to make any sort of judgement on it without doing so. I had just heard from a number of Japanese budoka that he seemed biased against the Japanese. So whenever I hear someone quote him I wonder if his alleged bias has effected his outlook.

I have no idea what Kaiso was like early in his life. I know he did intelligence work for the Japanese military, and he may even have been a fascist. I also know that he had a very hard upbringing. Losing his alcoholic father when he was about 8 and his mother when about 12. I do know by his own writings how appalled he was by what went on in Manchuria, and I know the type of organisation he created.

In Australia a few years ago there was a political move to the far right under a political leader that exploited peoples fears of other races. They became very powerful, it seemed they had hit on the feelings of insecurity of many people at the time and thier popularity grew tremendously. This was not because people where all right wing fascists, but because they were scared and insecure. The party also fed on many perceptions of the public. Where for instance, we may be overrun with criminals or unmarried young mothers. These were common perceptions within the community, but there were no supporting facts. Non-the less they provided great recruitment propaganda for the party. Looking back there were many people involved in this party, now it is insignificant. Im sure most people were decent people that for whatever reason joined because it made sense at the time.

I guess what Im trying to say is that people live and learn, they make mistake and they change through out life. I dont know if Kaiso was or was not a fascist right winger, and Im not prepared to make a judgement on someone when I cannot understand what circumstances prevailed at the time. All I can attest to is that right wing fascism has no place within Shorinji Kempo or Kaisos teachings.


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## Tripitaka of AA (Jan 12, 2005)

Hi Colin (Happy New Year btw)

You've been facing a tough crowd here, but handled it with aplomb as always .


Robert (Rousselot) said


> While I have friends that like and practice Shorinji Kempo I do not care for Shorinjis fabricated history, and the demi-God status placed on Do Shin So, nor the over zealous attitude of most of the practitioners I have met in Japan.
> 
> Their attitude has basically been Shorinji is the best; you should quite your art and join us


and


> The main thing that turned me off though was the attitude of most of the Japanese and a few foreigners that practice the art. The Japanese tended to be very right wing and the foreigners tended to be grasshopper wannabees.




If any of these comments were referring to Tony Kehoe, then the readers of this and five other Internet forums will know exactly what you mean. Of course, they will also know that he is a rather unusual person and has some extreme views. A thoroughly decent chap and very nice in person, he can be the epitome of "over-zealous" when challenged on his pet topics. . He is probably not regarded by many as the "typical" Kenshi .


Also, Robert, as you have lived in Japan for many years, would you say that Budoka are, in general, old-fashioned and more likely to support Right-Wing politics than other groups of the populace? My Japanese wife has described it that way, but perhaps that was just her environment.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

Hi David,

Happy New Year. I haven't seen you hear before, not that I have been here long myself.


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## RRouuselot (Jan 12, 2005)

Tripitaka of AA said:
			
		

> Hi Colin (Happy New Year btw)
> 
> You've been facing a tough crowd here, but handled it with aplomb as always .
> 
> ...


 1) Wasn't really talking about Tony.....just some others I have met at the Budo Seminar in Chiba.
 2) The old ones sure as hell are "right wingers"....don't know about the younger ones.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 12, 2005)

Hi Colin, as to who inspired who all I can say is this. it was brought up once on the Kajukenbo Cafe that it appears Mitose copied Doshin So. However, a Kosho Shorei ryu student pied in and stated Mitose actually started officially teaching in Hawaii in 1942, claiming the 21st decendant and initially calling his art Shorinji Kempo and by 1974 he wrote a book breaking down the art and now calling it kenpo Jiu Jitsu. Doshin So came on the scene and founded his art in 1974 claiming 21st decendant. The Kosho student felt mitose inspired So. As far as my opinion goes, it's so confusing and conflicting that I can't say one way or the other but the similiarities are a little 'uncanny' to say the least.

By the way Colin, I don't feel at all this reflects on the crediability and usefulness of your art as a great martial arts system at all and I say the same of the Mitose people and Kosho. I'm just commenting on these two men and their enigmic backgrounds...........strange!


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## The Kai (Jan 12, 2005)

again the myth of the lineage of the Martial Arts (regardless of which style) streching back for 100 or even thousands of years is being debunked almost on a daily basis.  yet, we still fall for it.

Ancient History, score the records of the 1950's and 60's
Modern History look to the 70' and 80's

Application of Historical principles look at how your art is practiced today.

My High school football team was the called the Spartans, nobody actually thought we were spartans though-we were emulating thier attributes.

Todd


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## pete (Jan 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> My High school football team was the called the Spartans, nobody actually thought we were spartans though-we were emulating thier attributes.


couldn't resist....

http://infomedia.jt.org/char.php?i=125


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## The Kai (Jan 12, 2005)

I said the football team!  But I guess you guys on the sidelines would wear the same colors?

Todd


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## Karazenpo (Jan 12, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Colin, as to who inspired who all I can say is this. it was brought up once on the Kajukenbo Cafe that it appears Mitose copied Doshin So. However, a Kosho Shorei ryu student pied in and stated Mitose actually started officially teaching in Hawaii in 1942, claiming the 21st decendant and initially calling his art Shorinji Kempo and by 1974 he wrote a book breaking down the art and now calling it kenpo Jiu Jitsu. Doshin So came on the scene and founded his art in 1974 claiming 21st decendant. The Kosho student felt mitose inspired So. As far as my opinion goes, it's so confusing and conflicting that I can't say one way or the other but the similiarities are a little 'uncanny' to say the least.
> 
> By the way Colin, I don't feel at all this reflects on the crediability and usefulness of your art as a great martial arts system at all and I say the same of the Mitose people and Kosho. I'm just commenting on these two men and their enigmic backgrounds...........strange!



Boy, did I screw this post up, a little dislexic I think!, lol. Just replace 1974 for 1947. Thanks, Joe


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Hi Colin, as to who inspired who all I can say is this. it was brought up once on the Kajukenbo Cafe that it appears Mitose copied Doshin So. However, a Kosho Shorei ryu student pied in and stated Mitose actually started officially teaching in Hawaii in 1942, claiming the 21st decendant and initially calling his art Shorinji Kempo and by 1974 he wrote a book breaking down the art and now calling it kenpo Jiu Jitsu. Doshin So came on the scene and founded his art in 1974 claiming 21st decendant. The Kosho student felt mitose inspired So. As far as my opinion goes, it's so confusing and conflicting that I can't say one way or the other but the similiarities are a little 'uncanny' to say the least.
> 
> By the way Colin, I don't feel at all this reflects on the crediability and usefulness of your art as a great martial arts system at all and I say the same of the Mitose people and Kosho. I'm just commenting on these two men and their enigmic backgrounds...........strange!


I would like to add just a couple of corrections. Shorinji Kempo was officially established in 1947. Doshin So's first book was printed in 1970 it was titled Shorinji Kempo philosophy and technique, ISB 0870401165. His second book was first printed in 1972, it was titled What is Shorinji Kempo ISB 0870401777. There have been other books, but these were the only ones published in English.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

The Kai said:
			
		

> again the myth of the lineage of the Martial Arts (regardless of which style) streching back for 100 or even thousands of years is being debunked almost on a daily basis. yet, we still fall for it.
> 
> Ancient History, score the records of the 1950's and 60's
> Modern History look to the 70' and 80's
> ...


Doshin So has always said that what he taught is not the Shaolin Chaun Fa that he learned, but rather a reengineered version of his life study of budo. The naming is more to do with the philosophical side of the art, and the inspiration behind what he wanted to achieve.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

Karazenpo said:
			
		

> Boy, did I screw this post up, a little dislexic I think!, lol. Just replace 1974 for 1947. Thanks, Joe


Just as a point of interest, Doshin So didn't arrive back to Japan until 1946.


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## Karazenpo (Jan 12, 2005)

Ya Colin, I made a typo on the dates, when I printed 1974, I meant 1947. Sorry for the confusion. Having said that, what do you think of the close similarities between these two men?


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 12, 2005)

Yes there does seem to some there, but given that Doshin So didnt arrive back to Japan until 1946, and the lack of any evidence to suggest similarity of technique or the meeting of each other I would think it may be chance. After all Shorinji Kempo is just Japanese for Shaolin Temple Chaun Fa, so if you were drawing links to the Shaolin Temple, and taught a system of Kempo it would be a natural name to chose.
Doshin So also offers more proof than Mitose regarding who he learnt from. He lists the teachers and the styles. The following is a translation of his story from the Swedish Federations site. It is quite detailed as to what he did and who he studied with. Is it true? I dont know, as I have never researched it. It is not something that that I would be prepared to undertake because of the difficulties in tracing any Chinese system. No matter what they are there seems to be mixed statements made by different people. And because of the number of government operations to destroy them there is little reliable evidence.

Activities on the Continent. 
Japan at that time was at the nadir of a depression. After the end of the First World War, the storms of a terrible economic panic were raging everywhere, and Japan was no exception. There were rushes on banks everywhere; companies and factories collapsed one after the other; caught in the middle, the unemployed were virtually overflowing.

Hearing many stories from military personnel who came in and out of the acquaintance's house where he stayed, and reading of affairs in various books, Doshin finally was unable to simply stay in place.

"To break through the unprecedented national difficulties, I would be happy to be come a sacrifice pawn for the growth of the Japanese people." This is what Doshin set his heart on when he volunteered to cross over to Manchuria again. When he went in January 1928, he was 17 years old.

The assignment given to Doshin in Manchuria was as a Special Maneuvers personnel. To receive the education necessary to his position there, Doshin was brought to a Daoist school for religion and placed under the care of an elder teacher named Chen Liang. This was his first connection to Buddhist law. And by becoming Chen Liang's pupil and sharing many experiences with him, Doshin also gained his first connection to the study of kempo as a Chinese martial skill.

Master Chen was a man of importance in the Zaijia Li secret society and the Shifu (Master Teacher) of the Northern Shaolin White Lotus Fist society, which traces its roots to the Songshan Shaolin Temple.

In the spare moments of life together with Master Chen, Doshin trained on the kempo techniques, learning their ins and outs little by little. We use the word "technique" here, but at that time not only were there no systematic training methods or schematized organization, some things didn't even have names yet. So, Doshin assigned a Japanese-style name that only he would know to each technique as he learned it, and thus organized and remembered them.

At one time, Doshin, Master Chen, and several others were joined together for an assignment to make an extensive tour covering all of what is now Dongbei Province. This extensive tour was, for Doshin, the second connection to Buddhist law. Blessed with the opportunity to meet the leaders and masters of all the secret societies that existed in the northeastern province, it was a one in a million chance allowing him to learn the various fighting arts and technical - skills that still remained. This time would be the direct cause of his entering more deeply into these studies in later years.

At this time, Kaiso still harbored youthful dreams of glorious deeds on horseback or the thrill and romance of espionage. However, he had gotten sick and the difference between dream and reality was so vast that he felt a bit down. In fact, he had begun to feel disappointed with his path.

After grappling with this problem at length, he decided, "As long as I'm going to lay down my life for my country, I want to work at something a bit more glorious." Then, using recuperation from his illness as an excuse, he returned home to Japan.

Entrance into the Air Corps.

Kaiso in his pilot uniform. The recently returned Doshin applied for admission to the Air Corps, and in January 1931 he joined the First Air Corps at Kagamigahara in Gifu Prefecture. In April, he collapsed due to the onset of a terrible fever during night flight training. Admitted to an army hospital in this state, he received his discharge orders after six months of convalescence. 
"Of those excused from military service by the army hospital, 70 percent die within one year. Most of the remaining 30 percent die within three years; so you take note! If your luck holds out and you make it for three years, then you might be able to live out your life a little, you know." At these words from his commander, Doshin received a tremendous shock. 

Third time to the Continent. 

Thinking there was only one year of life left, Doshin set his heart on doing whatever he wanted till he died, and in the end he decided to cross over to Manchuria once again, relying on the kindness of his fondly remembered Master Chen. This was October, 1931. Somewhat given to self destructive impulses, Doshin was volunteering for dangerous assignments and threw himself into carrying them out. 

One day Master Chen took him aside and asked him, "It seems like you're in such a hurry to die. So what happened?" When Doshin told him that apparently he had less than a year left because of a valvular disease of the heart, Master Chen replied, "Who decided that you would die within a year? Heaven's fate for us is a mysterious strand beyond the knowledge of human beings. Within the span of your life, you will not die. Until heaven's allotted time has run out, it is best that humans work with all the spirit they can summon. Don't fret away your days." Then he went on to say, "Yet, one must exhaust all human resources to hold on to the life that heaven gives us. Alright then, starting today I will treat you", and Master Chen put Doshin's physical condition aright. This was the first time that Doshin had ever learned of the existence of keimyaku iho (medical treatment of body meridians and flows), and thus he directly experienced the effectiveness of seitai treatments. 

Afterwards, Doshin's work took him to Beijing where he was immediately assigned to a behind the scenes operation. Most fortunately Master Chen's teacher, the famous Master Wen Taizong, had secluded himself in Beijing. Master Wen was the Shifu of the Notthern Shaolin Yihemen Quan (Giwamon Ken) society, and in his youthful days he had become a monk in the Shaolin Temple and learned the discipline, then became the pupil of 19th generation Yihemen Quan Master Huang Longbai, and finally succeeded him as Shifu. 
With Master Chen's introduction, Doshin was permitted to become Master Huang's direct pupil. Under him he learned the 36 grappling techniques known as the secret Dragon Techniques (Longxi Zhuji) -the greatest repository of fundamental training moves as martial techniques in the Northern Shaolin Yihemen Quan. He also learned the correct methods of goju ittai throws known as the Goka Ken (Wu Hua Quan), and direct and transverse methods of grabbing.

Having learned martial arts since he was a child, and having been instructed in the fundamentals by Master Chen, Doshin progressed rapidly and so became the recipient of the childless master's strong affection.
Inheriting the Mantle of the Yihemen Quan.

In the fall of 1936, Doshin took the opportunity of going to Xian in Shanxi Province to accompany Master Wen to the ruins of the Songshan Shaolin Temple. The demolished Hall of the Founder remained in name only, but with the Master's old friend the Head Priest presiding, the Yihemen Quan ceremony was performed to pass on the mantle of leadership, and Doshin received recognition of his status as the 21st generation Shifu.

However, left with no family connections at all, Doshin had no desire to return to Japan under the conditions of the time, and he planned to reside permanently in China. Moreover, in an era which had developed modern weapons, his succession to the headship of an ancient martial tradition which took years to learn was not, in itself, especially exciting to Doshin at the time. "On top of how interesting the techniques themselves were, I was taken by the character of the Master himself, and it was just the result of my being drawn in ever deeper without really meaning to. I received the tokens of succession to please the Master who seemed so happy to have found a successor." said Doshin in explaining those times.

I hope you found this interesting. No doubt I will be in for some interesting discusions based apon it.


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## George Hyde (Jan 13, 2005)

Hi All,

Firstly I should declare my Shorinji Kempo credentials. I&#8217;ve been training/teaching under Mizuno Sense in the UK for around twelve years now.

As you can all imagine this topic has been discussed in a number of different places. Colin has done a damn fine job of presenting an opinion with which I am quite happy to agree. However, that won&#8217;t do much to keep this post any shorter - sorry.

I&#8217;ve read Draeger&#8217;s books and whilst I&#8217;m aware he has critics I haven&#8217;t done sufficient further research myself to say to what degree they should be taken seriously. On the whole I&#8217;ve found his work very informative. As to his comments on Shorinji Kempo I have endeavoured to search further. I don&#8217;t consider them to be malicious and don&#8217;t hold the opinion proffered by some that he had a particular &#8220;axe to grind&#8221; &#8211; aside from inference drawn from the text itself, no real evidence has ever been provided in support of this opinion and I&#8217;ve not found any myself.

Whilst investigating his sources I&#8217;ve had some communication with one of his associates who told me that Draeger interviewed &#8216;a number of senior Shorinji Kempo practitioners&#8217; - who, when and where I was unable to establish. IMO, there&#8217;s not much progress to be made in trying to argue against his critique of the technical aspects of Shorinji Kempo &#8211; nobody I know who practices Shorinji Kempo labours under the impression that what they practice is specifically Chinese in origin or makes such claims. Why bother trying to assert that when the founder himself didn&#8217;t? However, insofar as Draeger relies upon this critique to support his assertion that Doshin So&#8217;s claims as to his Chinese experience are bogus is a bit of a leap. 

My main point of interest was his reference to the 1972 court ruling which he presents as a &#8216;nail in the coffin&#8217; for Doshin So&#8217;s claims. It is testament to Draeger&#8217;s influence that this &#8216;fact&#8217; is taken as an article of faith by everyone who wants to offer an opinion about Shorinji Kempo &#8211; it just happened because Draeger said so! It is also testament to the laziness of everyone who joyfully throws this little factoid around that they are entirely unable to account for the incontrovertible fact that today, the art is known as &#8220;Shorinji Kempo&#8221; and has been for over 30 years. It simply doesn&#8217;t occur to them to ask what may have happened in the intervening years to overturn this historical decision. In the total absence of any supporting evidence for the alleged court ruling, and the additional incontrovertible fact that the name is comprehensively protected under international copyright laws, is it not reasonable to conclude that the court ruling never actually happened? Shorinji Kempo Hombu certainly have no record of it.

I&#8217;m not trying to assert that Doshin So&#8217;s claims were entirely uncontroversial &#8211; in fact there is quite a bit of evidence of a very public spat played out in the media between Doshin So and Sato Kimbei as to their respective claims. But this is a long way from any court ruling. The reality is that the name of the art and the names of the organisations that govern its activities have undergone revision over the years but never at the behest of, or in an effort to placate, any third parties.

I should however add a caveat to the above statement. In my efforts to dig up the truth I was surprised by an as yet unsubstantiated reference (from a source unmotivated by axe grinding) to a court case during the 60s. I&#8217;ve yet to follow this up. However, until such time as I or someone else is able to demonstrate otherwise it should be given no more weight that the 1972 claim.

As to the moral disposition of Doshin So and his nefarious wartime activities I&#8217;ll say this. For me, the fact that the activities of intelligence operatives are inextricably linked with the consequent activities of the military is an uncontroversial matter. The fact that Doshin So was a nationalist committed to furthering the expansionist ideology of Japan is for me equally uncontroversial. I&#8217;m even prepared to leave uncontested all the unsupported accusations that Doshin So played an active &#8216;hands-on&#8217; roll in the military atrocities. Without trivialising the issue, given the fact that the activities of such individuals would certainly be secret and likely entirely unrecorded it would actually be as pointless to contest such claims, as it is to make them. The only reliable evidence upon which to make a judgement is that which is at hand. 

Before I get accused of painting Doshin So as a bad guy who saw the error of his ways in a miraculous conversion, don&#8217;t bother. I&#8217;d say that any assumption that following his &#8216;realisation&#8217; (as cataclysmic as it may have been) he became a &#8216;loved up liberal&#8217; is ridiculous in the extreme. On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that he returned to Japan every bit the nationalist he was in China and Shorinji Kempo was undoubtedly forged in that fire. It&#8217;s uncomfortable but necessary to accept that many typically nationalist values in and of themselves are not abhorrent &#8211; it is the consequent methodology all too often employed in promoting those values and furthering the ideology that is abhorrent. It is an unfortunate though understandable fact of history that the values become synonymous with the methodology. It therefore becomes easy to throw the epithet of &#8216;nationalist&#8217; at Doshin So and thereby, without the need for any supporting evidence, call into question his methodology, that being Kongo Zen, Shorinji Kempo.

Can someone tainted by such a history ever have anything useful to contribute to society? I can&#8217;t speak for every kenshi, but I consider teachings with regard to self-reliance, communal responsibility, forgiveness, compassion, tolerance and inclusiveness to be a great deal more valuable when they come from a man so intimately associated with &#8216;the dark side&#8217; than they do from some bespectacled, sandal-wearing dork in a caftan who got a visit from The Almighty or read a few books. 

So why do we constantly find ourselves on the defensive? It seems to me that the motive for stressing Doshin So&#8217;s nationalistic leanings before, during and after the war is in some way to educate us poor souls as to the fact that we&#8217;ve been duped into thinking that Shorinji Kempo is a worthwhile pursuit when in fact we&#8217;re all being programmed for some future Japanese invasion. I trust the foregoing demonstrates that I at least have my eyes wide open.

Later,


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## The Kai (Jan 13, 2005)

I wonder if the guys that studied with the original JKA people in the 60's had the same accusations to deal with??Todd


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## Karazenpo (Jan 13, 2005)

Colin & George: Colin, I believe on the San Jose Kenpo discussion forum historian and martial artist (Tracy's Kenpo & Kajukenbo) Brain Baxter, I believe it was Brian, stated that Tracy's Kenpo (which is of the Mitose lineage) had very similiar techniques as Shorinji Kempo. I also have a book showing a Shroinji Kempo technique and it did remind me of my Hawaiian derived kempo lineage traced back to Mitose.

George, excellent post, I also agree with what has happened to your art, the evolution of it, over the past 30 years. The Kosho ryu people (Mitsoe) have made the same case for their art also and the part of Doshin So possibly turning his life around for the better and (to paraphrase) doesn't Shorinji Kempo and Doahin So have some value to offer the martial arts world despite his controversial background, I agree with that also but that's the 'erie' part I was mentioning........this same exact case has been made countless times by the Kosho people! I still feel it's amazing how these two men, both Japanese, have had not only their lives but their systems so praraelled to each other. Again, I'm in know way critical of Shorinji Kempo, from what I understand from others, it's as good an art as mine or anyone's elses, it's just these series of 'coincidences' that makes one think.......  Respectfully, Prof. Joe


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 13, 2005)

One doesn't want to be impolite, but--writing as a scholarly type--Mr. Hyde's post struck me as a model of fair, balanced, intelligent description of a history and some of the questions surrounding that history.

Particularly nice was the avoidance of pseudo-religious language, the recitation of unverified, "facts," and claims about inheriting some, "mantle," which those of us in American kenpo hear all too often.

It may be worth noting that this "court trial," business also struck this writer as odd. On the other hand, to call Doshin So's politics, "nationalistic," is to paper things over a bit--his politics were fascist and colonialist, and probably more than a little racist.

One does certainly agree that to read what happened later as a, "conversion experience," is more than a little mythologizing. So, again, thanks for the fair and intelligent discussion.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> It may be worth noting that this "court trial," business also struck this writer as odd. On the other hand, to call Doshin So's politics, "nationalistic," is to paper things over a bit--his politics were fascist and colonialist, and probably more than a little racist.
> 
> One does certainly agree that to read what happened later as a, "conversion experience," is more than a little mythologizing. So, again, thanks for the fair and intelligent discussion.


Robert,



Sorry to once again hit you with non-facts. I would offer some if I had been able to find some. I have never read anything to suggest what your saying is factual, or not. I cant refute it. All I can do is offer personal feedback of 16 years of training in Shorinji Kempo, and my personal experience with some of their best teachers. I find it difficult to believe that Doshin So could have had these attitudes you talk about without them coming through to those he taught. The only fact that I can offer is that these attitudes dont appear in any of the high-ranking sensei at Hombu, or any of the lectures from Doshin So that I have read, in fact it is exactly the opposite attitudes that strike you most. This, to me should hold more weight than unsupported claims of fascism.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

It struck me that this discussion has covered a number of fronts, and in many of my posts I have tried to address a number of them within the same post. This could be confusing for others and myself, as written communication is not one of my strong points. It may be helpful if with each post we headline what aspect we are discussing. So far the issues raised are Doshin So being a fascist, The legitimacy of his claims, The legitimacy of his Chinese experience in martial arts (this also includes the claim that Shorinji Kempo is nothing more than a mix of Aikijutsu and Karate), The claim that Shorinji Kempo is a religion or not, the claim that we teach for non profit, and the truth regarding Bodhidharma. These are the different issues that I have noticed raised; if Ive left any out please add them.


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 13, 2005)

Sorry, but, "unsubstantiated," my left ear. If this Doshin So fellow was in China--especially in Manchuria!--working for the Japanese military in any way, he was a bad guy. It's isn't "nationalism," that's at stake--it's Japanese fascism. It isn't the desire to sacrifice himself for the good of Japan, either (could have stayed home and done THAT)--it's Japanese colonialism, which culminated in that period with their invasion of first, "Manchuria," and then the rest of China starting in 1931.

Moreover, if Doshin So was closely associated with the "Black Dragon," society, he was associated with some very bad guys indeed. The websites discussing them seem a little weird, but try this:

www.willamette.edu/~rloftus/moremilitarism.html

Sorry, but one truly dislikes the whitewashing of history--particularly given the strong Japanese propensity for this rewriting of World War II over the last forty years. It's great if Doshin So saw through all this and came to reject it...but from some of the posts, it looks as though more than a little of a haughty and indeed racist attitude remains in Shorinji.

Stuents of American kenpo, though, don't have a lot to feel superior about in this regard. From James Mitose and William Chow on--and we can't even agree about who taught who!--the art's history is full of crooks and thugs.


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## brothershaw (Jan 13, 2005)

Claims against a founder ( i dont study shorinji, never have ) are ALMOST irrelevant.     Who can 100% say that the founder of thier system or one of the teachers in between wasnt rascist, mysognist, nationalist or whatever.
the great revered founder could have been a saint or a mean drunk? Isnt takeda often spoken of as being a mena tough guy? 
     Most people on the street cant even honestly and accurately speak about thier greatgrandfathers history, activites or temperment much less care.
       It is comforting to believe that what you put so much energy into is coming from a "good" source but sometimes it is what it is.


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## RRouuselot (Jan 13, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Sorry, but, "unsubstantiated," my left ear. If this Doshin So fellow was in China--especially in Manchuria!--working for the Japanese military in any way, he was a bad guy. It's isn't "nationalism," that's at stake--it's Japanese fascism. It isn't the desire to sacrifice himself for the good of Japan, either (could have stayed home and done THAT)--it's Japanese colonialism, which culminated in that period with their invasion of first, "Manchuria," and then the rest of China starting in 1931.
> 
> Moreover, if Doshin So was closely associated with the "Black Dragon," society, he was associated with some very bad guys indeed. The websites discussing them seem a little weird, but try this:
> 
> ...


 
 Lest us not forget that one of the VIPs and someone connected to Do SHinSO was Sasakawa Ryoichi (I mentioned him earlier he was a member of Green Dragon Society, drug smuggling, guns, prostitution etc...read a book called "The Yakuza" by a guy named Kaplan) who was also in Manchuria at the same time as Do Shin So.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 13, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Sorry, but, "unsubstantiated," my left ear. If this Doshin So fellow was in China--especially in Manchuria!--working for the Japanese military in any way, he was a bad guy. It's isn't "nationalism," that's at stake--it's Japanese fascism. It isn't the desire to sacrifice himself for the good of Japan, either (could have stayed home and done THAT)--it's Japanese colonialism, which culminated in that period with their invasion of first, "Manchuria," and then the rest of China starting in 1931.
> 
> Moreover, if Doshin So was closely associated with the "Black Dragon," society, he was associated with some very bad guys indeed. The websites discussing them seem a little weird, but try this:
> 
> ...


I can see what you mean, and I agree that he was indeed a member of these organisations; Im not trying to contradict this. It is certainly true that the Japanese have sought to white wash their history in regards to WW2. This should not be supported. The sad fact is that most countries seem to do this sort of thing from time to time; I know we have in Australia, so Im a little reluctant to get on my high horse.


I was trying to make a couple of points regarding context of times, and the true nature of the man. At that period of history countries expanded their wealth through colonisation, we all did. All countries that colonised others seemed to have behaved atrociously. Look at the circumstances behind the Boxer rebellion, look what we did to the Aboriginals. Japan emerged late into the modern world and observed how the major players had developed there power and sought to do the same. This is in no way condemning this sort of action. But at that time it was not viewed badly, unless it was interfering with your own plans. Times change and so do viewpoints.


Secret societies and various other groups were a common political and social tool within China and Japan. From my experience people seem to join organisations for many reasons, and are not always totally sympathetic to all the goals and methods used by the organisation. Would you hold all your armed forces personnel with the same disgust that you hopefully would those that committed the torture of the detainees in Iraq. Would all Bush supporters by happy about the open ended imprisonment without legal representation and the torture of the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay? Of course not, just because they maybe party members does not mean they specifically support their actions.


Given the lack of any clear evidence that Doshin So was a war criminal I can only base my opinion on what I know of him. Please note it is only my opinion, and Im not saying you should change yours; just understand why I have mine. I cant expect you to feel the way I feel because you have not experienced what I have.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 14, 2005)

George Hyde said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> Firstly I should declare my Shorinji Kempo credentials. Ive been training/teaching under Mizuno Sense in the UK for around twelve years now.
> 
> ...


Mr. Hyde:

My personal lineage involves a Brit who blacked in American Kenpo (when it was called Chinese Kenpo), then travelled to Japan to study Shorinji in the late 1970's. While there, he switched to training in Chinese Kempo with Sato Kimbei's camp. He alluded to animosity between camps, but I have never been able to determine what that may have been. Most lines of information available regarding Sato are through bujinkan and ex-bujinkan sources, which have been sanitized to mystify the man, his art, work, etc. 

Humor me: what was the thing between So Doshin and Kimbei Sato? Not meant to drag up dirty laundry, but I am deeply interested in what that part of the history consisted of.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- If it is inappropriate to post on this forum, please e-mail me.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 14, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Lest us not forget that one of the VIPs and someone connected to Do SHinSO was Sasakawa Ryoichi (I mentioned him earlier he was a member of Green Dragon Society, drug smuggling, guns, prostitution etc...read a book called "The Yakuza" by a guy named Kaplan) who was also in Manchuria at the same time as Do Shin So.


Robert,

I'll try and track a copy down. I would be interested in finding out more in regards to Doshin So, no matter what the result. In the BBC series that you mentioned earlier they introduced Sasakawa as the head of a large Karate organisation, do you know which one? From memory they also said he was head or high up in a right wing political party. At the time I thought no more of it, I just thought it was a normal political party with views to the right like our Liberal Party or your Republican Party.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 14, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> I can see what you mean, and I agree that he was indeed a member of these organisations; Im not trying to contradict this. It is certainly true that the Japanese have sought to white wash their history in regards to WW2. This should not be supported. The sad fact is that most countries seem to do this sort of thing from time to time; I know we have in Australia, so Im a little reluctant to get on my high horse.
> 
> 
> I was trying to make a couple of points regarding context of times, and the true nature of the man. At that period of history countries expanded their wealth through colonisation, we all did. All countries that colonised others seemed to have behaved atrociously. Look at the circumstances behind the Boxer rebellion, look what we did to the Aboriginals. Japan emerged late into the modern world and observed how the major players had developed there power and sought to do the same. This is in no way condemning this sort of action. But at that time it was not viewed badly, unless it was interfering with your own plans. Times change and so do viewpoints.
> ...


 
My apologies. In this original post in the second paragraph I mistakenly wrote, this is in no way condemning this sort of action. It is supposed to read as; this in no way condones this sort of action. I didnt notice this until just recently and the edit button seems to have disappeared.


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## RRouuselot (Jan 14, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Robert,
> 
> 1) I'll try and track a copy down. I would be interested in finding out more in regards to Doshin So, no matter what the result.
> 2) In the BBC series that you mentioned earlier they introduced Sasakawa as the head of a large Karate organisation, do you know which one?
> 3) From memory they also said he was head or high up in a right wing political party. At the time I thought no more of it, I just thought it was a normal political party with views to the right like our Liberal Party or your Republican Party.


 
  Colin, 

 First off, please don't get the impression I am ripping on Shorinji Kempo. 


  1) I don't think Do shin So is mentioned in that book. However, Sasakawa is a big part of it. 
 2) Sasakawa was the head of the JKF (Japan Karate Do Federation), it was head by former Prime Minister Hashimoto at one time. I was a member/judge but due to the "nonsense" (read- racism) and having no interest in their "tippy tap tournaments" I dropped out. 
 3) I think it was the "Liberal Democratic Party". From 1996~1999 I worked for the Japanese Diet in the House of Rep. (long story) and I had a chance to meet some of the real bozos that were in charge. Mori and Hashimoto come to mind as a few of the dolts that used to run this country.


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## Colin_Linz (Jan 14, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Colin,
> 
> First off, please don't get the impression I am ripping on Shorinji Kempo.
> 
> ...


Robert,

I have read enough of your posts to know that you dont have an axe to grind, and that your straightforward manner is just that. I also value your input because of your extensive association with Japanese budo and familiarity with Shorinji Kempo and some of its kenshi, we may not agree on some areas, but your opinion is based on first hand experience which demands consideration.

I didnt realise you worked so close to the political scene. Im getting a little off topic, but what is your opinion of Koizumis government?


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## RRouuselot (Jan 14, 2005)

Colin_Linz said:
			
		

> Robert,
> 
> I have read enough of your posts to know that you dont have an axe to grind, and that your straightforward manner is just that. I also value your input because of your extensive association with Japanese budo and familiarity with Shorinji Kempo and some of its kenshi, we may not agree on some areas, but your opinion is based on first hand experience which demands consideration.
> 
> I didnt realise you worked so close to the political scene. Im getting a little off topic, but what is your opinion of Koizumis government?


 Thanks, I just wanted to make it clear. 
 I do think Shorinji Kempo is a viable art.


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## George Hyde (Jan 14, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> It may be worth noting that this "court trial," business also struck this writer as odd. On the other hand, to call Doshin So's politics, "nationalistic," is to paper things over a bit--his politics were fascist and colonialist, and probably more than a little racist.
> 
> One does certainly agree that to read what happened later as a, "conversion experience," is more than a little mythologizing. So, again, thanks for the fair and intelligent discussion.



Thanks Robert.

I wouldn't want to paint myself as an apologist for Doshin So. I hope it is evident in my post that I do not consider myself or anyone else (short of an independent eye witness and/or expert in Japanese and Chinese language and history with a stack of documentary evidence) sufficiently qualified to make objective statements about what he did or did not do in China. It should go without saying but my position is such that I would advise anyone, kenshi and non-kenshi alike, to take any version of the history offered by official Shorinji Kempo sources as just that &#8211; a &#8216;version&#8217; and give such the benefit of a critical eye. It is my understanding that Doshin So himself would insist on nothing less.

However, it is fair to characterise the Japanese regime at the time to be &#8216;fascist, colonialist and racist&#8217; and equally fair to acknowledge that Doshin So played a part in furthering the aims of such. My choice of &#8216;nationalist&#8217; could therefore be seen as an attempt to present a sanitised image of Doshin So &#8211; this was not my intention. 

My point is that it is neither fair nor productive to extrapolate the subjective characteristics of, &#8216;fascist, colonialist and racist&#8217; into an objective judgement about the man&#8217;s methodology evident in Shorinji Kempo today. Any sincere comparative analysis will demonstrate many contradictions. So clear are these contradictions that people tend to reach for a profound, supernatural &#8216;spiritual&#8217; awakening to explain the &#8216;leopard changing his spots&#8217;. Others quite rightly find this difficult to swallow and a few responsible critics offer evidence (Sasakawa, etc) to counter this. It is my position that if even if Doshin So is judged &#8216;guilty by association&#8217; (an assumption dependent on the generalisation of ideology/methodology and unsupported by specific evidence) no supernatural intervention would be required to bring about change. The fact that change occurred is evident in the methodology and teachings of Shorinji Kempo and any accusations to the contrary must logically account for this.

Later,

George


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