# Being pushed hard to promote



## Greg King (Jun 2, 2006)

My son is a red belt right now(as of end of march),and a very well trained Martial Artist ,the blackbelts at his school are pushing him very hard to promote in november to blackbelt,and even invited him to free private lessons on sunday to prepare him.Just curious to know, is it normal to promote to blackbelt in under a year. I'm not bragging just curious why they want it to happen so quick.:idunno: Including teaching at the park district  on thursdays he now has 11 classes of MA a week :asian:


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2006)

Gregg in my own opinion a year to soon to be a Black belt, I have been training for forty years and in that time the earliest I've seen has been two and a half, my question for you is why are they in a hurry. What is in it for them? next question how old is your son? Has he done another style and does he fully understand all the application to your system and if not then it is your finale say weather he test or not!

My last bit here my oldest has been training since he was two and it took him until 9 to get his poom BB from me (Kukkiwn) and that was 7 years of training. He is good but even he could not learn eveything one year and I own my school, I would be worring just a lttle and ask question to why are they in a hurry and see what happens.
Terry


----------



## Brother John (Jun 2, 2006)

Greg King said:
			
		

> My son is a red belt right now(as of end of march),and a very well trained Martial Artist ,the blackbelts at his school are pushing him very hard to promote in november to blackbelt,and even invited him to free private lessons on sunday to prepare him.Just curious to know, is it normal to promote to blackbelt in under a year. I'm not bragging just curious why they want it to happen so quick.:idunno: Including teaching at the park district  on thursdays he now has 11 classes of MA a week :asian:



Wow.... that's a lot of classes.
With 11 classes and several concerned advanced Black Belts rootin for him and helping him at every turn....sounds like he's got everything a young student could ask for!!
Good for your son!

I don't think this is out of line. With that many hours, plus I'm sure he practices on his own time as well, plus all those upper-students and instructors helping him so much.... He's simply rising to his potential and they see it and are urging him onward. 

PROBLEM will be...once he gets it, don't let him think he's DONE. Keep him going. Many (most) consider the Black Belt THE goal. Its not. It's just one more step on the way.

Your Brother
John


----------



## matt.m (Jun 2, 2006)

I am going to play devils advocate here and say that one year is just way too fast.  In Moo Sul Kwan it takes approximately 4 years to be thought of for testing for black belt.  That is Tae kwon Do and Hapkido.  This time period is based on a brand new beginner white belt.

Now, I did practice Judo for a few years and Got my Brown Belt ranking certified through the USJA.  My instructor let me test out of the white, yellow and green belt and brought me straight in as a brown belt.  So I spent two and a half years going through brown 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.  I was two months away from testing for dan and the person got stationed elsewhere.

It is also my belief that a person can be fab at forms and kicking.  However the maturity and understanding is not there.  There hasn't been enough time for it to be embedded, engrained, and nurtured.


----------



## Brother John (Jun 2, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> It is also my belief that a person can be fab at forms and kicking. However the maturity and understanding is not there. There hasn't been enough time for it to be embedded, engrained, and nurtured.



There's no way to know that unless you know the person. I've known people (even teen-agers) who had the maturity and understanding yet were low ranked and hadn't trained for that long. IF they are receptive and have great potential and have ELEVEN classes a week and several Black Belts encouraging them and giving free lessons each week....
It COULD be possible.

Your Brother
John


----------



## cbursk (Jun 2, 2006)

Hello,
I think a few of you are reading the year time length wrong.  What I think Greg is saying is that his son will have been a red belt for a year when he tests for his black belt, not that he has only been training for a year total.  If his son is a red belt then (depending on that schools approach) then he has probably been training there for about 3 years already.

Greg from the sounds of things - with the amount of training he is putting in - testing from red to black belt after a year of being a red belt is fine.  Given the amount training though, I would watch out for burnout to creep in.

However, if I am indeed wrong about how I interpreted the time line and you are saying that your son already a red belt after less than a year of training...  I would take a hard look at whether this school is a belt factory.


----------



## matt.m (Jun 2, 2006)

Yes, I agree if he has time spent to go throught the Gup ranks, I concur.  For in MSK it takes at least one year time in grade as a red to be considered for dan testing.


----------



## karatekid1975 (Jun 2, 2006)

I agree with cbursk. One year from red to black is about normal. My dojang has two ranks for red (2nd and 1st gup), and it takes roughly a year to get through them. Except for me (various injuries, surgeries, ect. It took me a year to test for 1st gup alone).

I also agree with the burn-out thing. And Brother John also made a good point. Make sure he knows that BB is NOT the goal, but just the beginning.


----------



## fireman00 (Jun 2, 2006)

Two years from Red to Red/ Black stripe to Black Belt is what I've seen in my previous and present schools.


----------



## bluemtn (Jun 2, 2006)

It'll take me about a year (or a little more than) for me to test for a black belt, and I just tested for my brown belt (1st gup).


----------



## Greg King (Jun 2, 2006)

I guess i should have been more specific.My son has been training for 5 years and attended every single tournament since his white belt and is now a red belt and one more to go for black .Again i am not bragging but his abilities surpass alot of BB's his age(13), At least this is what i am told by his teachers.Iwas just curious if anyone has heard of another person promoting to black in 7-8 months from the last colored senior belt:idunno:  it does seem a little fast to me.


----------



## Greg King (Jun 2, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> Wow.... that's a lot of classes.
> With 11 classes and several concerned advanced Black Belts rootin for him and helping him at every turn....sounds like he's got everything a young student could ask for!!
> Good for your son!
> 
> ...


 
His goal is to achieve Master status and open a local school.wish i knew what i wanted to do that early in life.and yes he knows that Blackbelt is just the beginning of his journey


----------



## bluemtn (Jun 2, 2006)

I think it's a little early, but not terribly so.  He's been at it for 5 years, and showing good potential...  He'll test at around his 6 year mark?  No, really once you break it down, I don't think it's too soon.


----------



## IcemanSK (Jun 2, 2006)

From red to black in less than a year is totally do-able. 11 classes a week?! And training by the BB's?! I can totally see that with no problem.

Best of luck to him!


----------



## Henderson (Jun 2, 2006)

If a TKD red belt is more-or-less equivalent to a karate-do brown belt, then I agree with some of the others here that it is entirely possible.


----------



## Last Fearner (Jun 3, 2006)

Brown or red, the color doesn't really matter - It's the geup (grade level). Some Taekwondo schools use brown for the high belt, some use red. Some use both, with brown before red, and others have red before brown.  Also, many schools have a temporary Black Belt stage between color belt and Black Belt (particularly for adults).  This level often uses a half brown/half black belt, or a plain black belt with no degree stripe.  It is sometimes called "Recommended Black," "Deputy Black," or "Black Belt Candidate."  This can last six months to one year.  The Poom belt for children often takes the place of this until the child reaches age of majority and can be awarded a 1st Dan.

In any case, on average, the student spends two to three months in the lower grades, four to six months in the higher grades, and usually six months to one year in the final grade before the 1st Dan. A student with prior experience, or an exceptional student might have any of the time periods reduced by a month or two, or skip a grade (color of belt) or two.

The Chief Instructor of the Dojang is the only one who should make this kind of recommendation, and if they are part of a larger organization (which issues the certificate rather than a school certificate), the Kwan Jang would probably need to approve an early promotion to Black Belt.

Overall, the entire time from white belt to First Dan should never, under any circumstances, be less than two and half years (which would include any previous training time at another school). Three to five years is ideal, and it could very well take longer. Keep in mind, a thirteen year old is going for Poom and not a Dan rank (even if your school does not recognize poom, no child at the age of thirteen is fully developed to hold the same level as an adult Black Belt (I'm not particularly fond of the 15 year old limit for Kukkiwon). However, this promotion will give your son time to develop as a poom before maturing in the Art, and in life, to become a full Black Belt Dan at the appropriate age.

My recommendation would be to discuss this with your son, and the Chief Instructor, then come to a sound decision as the parent. I see no problem with the time requirement as you have described.

CM D. J. Eisenhart


----------



## AceHBK (Jun 3, 2006)

Seems fine to me.

My only concern would be burn out.


----------



## Miles (Jun 5, 2006)

Five years is an appropriate time.  One year from 2nd guep is what I do and at that level, the training gets much tougher and the demand on the student is much greater.

Congratulations on your son being eligible to test.  Sounds like he is getting a lot of good training in and you are justifiably proud of him.

I do concur with Ace though=watch out for burn out!

Miles


----------



## matt.m (Jun 7, 2006)

Oh sorry, If he has five years of experience then it is all good.  I have seen too many buy your black belt mc dojos that promote people for the testing fees and the student does not deserve it.

But five years is plenty.  Sounds like the teachers did the right thing and promoted him slowly to begin with.


----------



## Greg King (Jun 7, 2006)

matt.m said:
			
		

> Oh sorry, If he has five years of experience then it is all good. I have seen too many buy your black belt mc dojos that promote people for the testing fees and the student does not deserve it.
> 
> But five years is plenty. Sounds like the teachers did the right thing and promoted him slowly to begin with.


 

A friend of mine has a son that goes to one of those schools ,they promote every eight or nine weeks.Seems schools like that don't care much about  teaching the art.My friends son has been in it two years and is going to test for his BB this year.Way too fast in my opinion.


----------



## Pheonix (Jun 14, 2006)

Alright here is my honest opinion

Going from red to black in under a year does seem quite fast to me.  However if the blackbelts had made special agangments or they think he can do it then I think it is by all means do able.  If they want him to test that badly and are pushing him that hard it could be that they are pushing him to test so soon to see if he will be able to do it.  it is going to take all he's got mentally and physically

farang


----------



## matt.m (Jul 18, 2006)

Did your son test?  If so, how did he do?


----------



## Fluffy (Jul 18, 2006)

Normally I would say a year is not even close to long enough, but 11 classes a week?  Add on that he may be a natural.......My instructor made his TSD 1st Dan in Korea in a year, but was training 15 hours a week.

Not probable, but It's possible.


----------



## mjd (Aug 2, 2006)

Maybe you should speak in terms of Gup rank, colors mean nothing to anymore unless they are in the same org.

WTSDA has 10 gup ranks and 1 pre-black belt rank called Cho Dan Bo, some orgs only have the 10 gup ranks.

Generally to get to black belt your looking at 4-5+ years in any org ot style. My school runs on the high side of that 5-7 years.

My question is what is your son's gup rank? 

Last 3 or 4 gup ranks should take ~6 months to 1 year, it's like making good wine, it just takes a long time, the quality of grapes will make a difference though.


----------



## tsdclaflin (Aug 6, 2006)

In our school, there is nothing new to learn between 1st gup and Black Belt.  Usually the time between 1st gup and BB is to polish techniques and maybe work on areas that were weak on their last test.

Time is no problem.


----------



## Greg King (Aug 6, 2006)

mjd said:
			
		

> Maybe you should speak in terms of Gup rank, colors mean nothing to anymore unless they are in the same org.
> 
> WTSDA has 10 gup ranks and 1 pre-black belt rank called Cho Dan Bo, some orgs only have the 10 gup ranks.
> 
> ...


 

In KyuKi-Do the belt ranks go like this.....white, yellow stripe, yellow, green stripe, green, blue stripe, blue, brown stripe, brown, red, and then black belt.If he tests for black this year it will be 9 months between red and black.If he is deemed not ready then it will be 1 year and 4 months before the next BB test.Yes I am very proud of him.Even Grand Master Kim himself has called my son an" exceptional martial artist".To answer your question though my son would be 10th gup.


----------



## MBuzzy (Aug 23, 2006)

Just to throw out my 2 cents...I realize that many organizations have hard and fast standards as to how long you must have studied to attain certain ranks and that the final say rests with the Kwan Jang Nim.  

My question is - shouldn't rank be more about your skill and ability than time?  It is a fact of life that some people learn faster than others.  Some people are more coordinated than others.  Some are more mature than other (big one) -- and some are just flat out in better shape than others.  Your belt color is not necessarily a measure of your ability, it is only an indication of what tests you have qualified for.

The time requirement exists for a reason, to eliminate favoritism, to ensure that enough training has occured, and a myriad of other reasons.  

But in this case, if all requirements are met, and he has the ability, knowledge and skill, AND the Kwan Jang Nim, Sa Bom Nim, and other students agree - why not?  

Also, just to be clear, I studied for a total of 2 and a half years at various schools in the US (mainly International Tang Soo Do Federation), but my opinion has been formed by the last 3 months of my training in South Korean under Sa Bom Nim Ch'oe, Ki Un and Kwan Jang Nim E, Han In.  So I may be a bit biased....


----------



## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2006)

Greg King said:
			
		

> In KyuKi-Do the belt ranks go like this.....white, yellow stripe, yellow, green stripe, green, blue stripe, blue, brown stripe, brown, red, and then black belt.If he tests for black this year it will be 9 months between red and black.If he is deemed not ready then it will be 1 year and 4 months before the next BB test.Yes I am very proud of him.Even Grand Master Kim himself has called my son an" exceptional martial artist".*To answer your question though my son would be 10th gup.*




If he's a red belt, he'd be a 1st gup. 10th gup would be white or yellow stripe. It goes backwards in the gup ranks....Like a countdown to blast off.

So,what's the latest, Greg?


----------



## Greg King (Aug 25, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> [/b]
> 
> If he's a red belt, he'd be a 1st gup. 10th gup would be white or yellow stripe. It goes backwards in the gup ranks....Like a countdown to blast off.
> 
> So,what's the latest, Greg?


 

OOPS,you're right ,he is 1st gup.Hope Master Kim doesn't see that,brain fart on my part there.The latest is they are still keeping an eye on him and i am not allowed to ask.But i did ask Master Kim to give me a hint as to what is going to happen because test fees for black are expensive and i would appreciate a little notice to be financially prepared.A little note ,he did a weapons demonstration at a festival for Master Hutson's AKF school and the local newspaper interviewed him and his last tournament two weeks ago he got first in everything  he entered.artyon:


----------



## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2006)

Good gregg sounds like he is doinf a great job.
Terry


----------



## IcemanSK (Aug 26, 2006)

Greg King said:
			
		

> OOPS,you're right ,he is 1st gup.Hope Master Kim doesn't see that,brain fart on my part there.The latest is they are still keeping an eye on him and i am not allowed to ask.But i did ask Master Kim to give me a hint as to what is going to happen because test fees for black are expensive and i would appreciate a little notice to be financially prepared.A little note ,he did a weapons demonstration at a festival for Master Hutson's AKF school and the local newspaper interviewed him and his last tournament two weeks ago he got first in everything he entered.artyon:


 
Congrats to your son, Greg! Master Hutson (& Master Dave Garrison in Barrington, for that matter)  is a great resource for your son.


----------



## zDom (Aug 26, 2006)

Greg King said:
			
		

> If he tests for black this year it will be 9 months between red and black.If he is deemed not ready then it will be 1 year and 4 months before the next BB test.



Looks like your school only has bb testing once a year or so?

I can see why they want to test him this time around, then. An extra year at Il Gup would be kind of harsh, especially when he is willing to train so hard and is doing so well.

I wouldn't sweat it being a little early - sounds like he has the time in grade and training in.

Best o' luck to him! (and DO watch out for burnout!)


----------



## Greg King (Aug 26, 2006)

I will keep all informed as to the progress of my son and his test, as soon as i have info i will post it.


----------



## Greg King (Sep 10, 2006)

Well the verdict is in .My son will not be promoting until may of 2007 .they said he needed to mature a little more ....But all is good and he is in agreement ,as the Masters pulled him aside and explained why,which is great because they really don't owe him an explanation,Back to class c'ya........Greg


----------



## terryl965 (Sep 10, 2006)

Greg King said:


> Well the verdict is in .My son will not be promoting until may of 2007 .they said he needed to mature a little more ....But all is good and he is in agreement ,as the Masters pulled him aside and explained why,which is great because they really don't owe him an explanation,Back to class c'ya........Greg


 

Gregg another year of maturaty will help him in the long run, cudos to you and your son for allowing the instructors to make a decission like that, you are lucky to have such great Masters at your school
Terry


----------



## IcemanSK (Sep 10, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> Gregg another year of maturaty will help him in the long run, cudos to you and your son for allowing the instructors to make a decission like that, you are lucky to have such great Masters at your school
> Terry


 

Terry hit it right on the head. I'm glad you feel you can trust the masters that much. Some folks wouldn't. Another year will make a difference. Good for you.


----------

