# What should i learn?



## bhfeva (Dec 3, 2012)

Hey all,

I understand that this topic might have been created several times, i tried to read around the forums and Google but i believe making a topic would help me out the most. ^^

First of all, i never played any martial arts before, i'm 19 years old, I'm only 5'6, but i have pretty wide shoulders.

1. I want to learn a martial art that makes me good at ground fighting AND standing (grappling and some strikes). What would be good options?
2. What exactly is MMA? For example, if I choose to join an MMA school, would they require you to have past martial art experience? Or do they teach you a mixture of jiujitsu/karate/boxing/etcetc ?

Also, i don't really care much for tournament play and such, i just want to get better at defending myself in-case any incident happens, and of course i'd like to be more athletic. (I am mature, i know that if i could avoid a fight, i should do so even if i can kick the hell out of the guy, i just want to be able to defend myself IF i am FORCED to fight). 

Thanks a lot and sorry if the topic is redundant


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## oftheherd1 (Dec 3, 2012)

The arts that I know of that teach ground fighting and grappling would be Hapkido, Aikido, and Jiujitsu. Others here may be aware of other arts and comment on them. Don't be surprised if you don't start intensive ground work at the beginning, before you learn grappling, at least in Hapkido. But you can check to see if there are Hapkido schools that do so.

If people know where you are from, they may even be able to suggest particular schools they believe are good.

For MMA you should wait for practitioners of that art to comment. I know little about it.

Good luck in your search and welcome to MT. You might want to do a little more introduction of yourself as well, in the Meet and Greet forum.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 3, 2012)

First, welcome to MT!  Hope you enjoy it here.

The first thing you should probably do is take stock of what is available in your area as far as martial arts training.  No point in setting your sights on something you can't get locally.

After making a list of what's out there near you, I'd look at each school individually, doing Google searches for comments, issues, instructor history, and etc.  There is a lot of so-so training out there, and if you want what you learn to be effective, you want a good school with a good instructor.

Once you have a short list of schools that seem authentic and with good instructors, it's time to spend some time visiting and observing.  Ask them if you can come by and watch a session or two, to help get a feel for it.  Note how newbies are treated, how people of all belt ranks are being trained, and see if you get a personal feel for the instructor(s).  There's no point in going to a school if you're not going to get along with the other students or the instructor.

MMA is not an art by itself, but it draws on many arts, including wrestling, BJJ, Muy Thai, and more.  It helps to have a background in one or more of those arts, but whether or not it is required before starting is up to the school itself; you'd have to ask them what they start with.

Final note; watch out for contracts.  At 19, you're old enough to sign legally-binding documents.  Some contracts are better than others.  Make sure you understand what's in a contract before you sign it.  If the school in question will let you sign a liability waiver and try out a school for a short period before committing to a longer term contract, that's always good to have.  Lots of people are paying for multiple-year contracts on training they stopped going to a long time ago.  Be wise.


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## Mz1 (Dec 12, 2012)

bhfeva said:


> 1. I want to learn a martial art that makes me good at ground fighting AND standing (grappling and some strikes). What would be good options?
> 2. What exactly is MMA? For example, if I choose to join an MMA school, would they require you to have past martial art experience? Or do they teach you a mixture of jiujitsu/karate/boxing/etcetc ?



MMA all the way homey. Here's why. MMA addresses all aspects of fighting. MMA schools are split up in 3 areas, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for the ground game, Muay Thai for standup and MMA to combine both together. Sometimes there's Western Boxing and Wrestling classes too. MMA is both a philosophy, therefore a type of Martial Art and a type of combat fighting tournament. 

The philosophy of MMA is to take w/e techniques from any MA that works in a real fight while discarding all of the fluffy, flowery form training, high risk fancy techniques, etc.  BJJ and MT just works the best, as proven in the UFC with EXCEPTIONS.  Remember, you're a noob and not a world class, UFC champion like Machida or St. Pierre or even contenders like Cung Le, Roy Big Country, etc.  Like UFC champion, John Jones, who just started training TKD to explore different techniques. But he's a multi-millionaire and the UFC is his life's devotion right now, not a noob who's trying to find the most efficient way to learn how to fight.

If you want to learn how to fight as quickly and efficiently as possible and get in the best shape, it's MMA.  In MMA, you will train from day 1, actual fighting techniques that will be used continuously throughout your training for years to come, street fights, ring/cage fights, pro career, whatever. What you learn in day 1 and so on will all be applicable. MMA will skip all of the flowery forms, needing to learn Asian terminologies and general fluffs that are rarely to never even used in a fight. MMA just trains and conditions you to fight. 

2 months of BJJ (3x per week), you should easily be able to manhandle pretty much anyone your size or a little bigger who's untrained in a grappling match. You'll easily choke them out, joint lock them, etc. and they'll give up. Because BJJ starts you out sparring at up to 100% power & intensity, usually on your first day. You'll get submitted a lot, gas out.....but this is how you'll get good fast.

It takes longer in MT, because getting hit in the face is a lot more terrifying than grappling. So you only start out hitting pads, and light constructive sparring. Hard sparring comes months or years later or even never at all if you don't want to. But if you want to learn how to defend yourself, you need to get used to getting hit in the face, really hard. 

The 3rd component, is MMA class. This one, many people are scared of as it does take a certain level of balls to start off in MMA class. But nobody is going to kill you as a noob. The instructor will jack them up for this....ie. they will spar them, hard. Same goes with most other classes really...if someone jacks up a noob, the instructors will either spar them or make them go against someone who'll teach them a lesson. But MMA class will still be the roughest of them all....ie. more is expected of you.

All said, some MMA gyms aren't legit....ie. Traditional MA gyms adding in the term MMA to their school to ride the MMA wave of popularity. Some are legit though as all it takes is bringing in a BJJ purple belt or such for the ground game.  A good fighting school would have active fighters as an indicator.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> ...while discarding all of the fluffy, flowery form training, high risk fancy techniques, etc. BJJ and MT just works the best, as proven in the UFC with EXCEPTIONS.



MMA may be a viable option for you.  It depends.  You might like it, you might not.  It might fulfill your goals, it might not.  As Bill above suggested, you should identify the options in your area, the schools that you can actually make it to in order to train, and see what they offer and which seems like the best fit for you in terms of what you are interested in and in terms of how well you fit within their operation.  

Regarding the above comments, don't believe for a moment that traditional martial arts is "fluffy and flowery", or that forms training has no value.  If trained appropriately, the traditional arts are extremely effective, and are not "fluffy and flowery".  And when taught and properly understood and trained, forms training is very valuable.  Not everyone likes forms, and you can learn effective skills without forms.  Forms are just one training tool of many.  But don't write it off just because someone else tells you it's no good.


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## Instructor (Dec 12, 2012)

The advice given ealier is sound.  Whichever you choose I wish you the very best!  Welcome to Martial Talk.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 12, 2012)

I would honestly suggest MMA for you as well. However, if you're not in the best shape yet, and you're not used to rough fighting, I'd suggest either finding an MMA school that doesn't go too tough, or go to a different MA school that goes slightly rough, and get in shape then join the MMA school (either on top of the MA or in replace of it). Of course, if you're confident in your body, go for the MMA, and if you end up really liking whatever MA school you go to, dont abandon it for MMA.


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2012)

Mz1 has provided one view of one approach to MMA training.  There are others; not everyone bases MMA training on Brazilian JiuJitsu (BJJ) and Mauy Thai.  Other approaches may derive their grappling component from Judo or wrestling more than BJJ, and may draw striking from other sources, as well.  Some very good gyms also don't always have current, active competitors -- but that doesn't automatically mean they're not a legit club.

Investigate what's available to you in your area.  See whether you think what they're doing is something you want to do.  Are they people you want to hang out and train with?  Are the instructors willing to answer your questions and help you know if their program will match your needs?


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## Mz1 (Dec 12, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> MMA may be a viable option for you.  It depends.  You might like it, you might not.



He said he wanted to learn and be good at fighting on the ground and standing in order to be able to defend himself. MMA will get him there the fastest w/o much of the fluff if efficiency and effectiveness is what he's looking for.



> Regarding the above comments, don't believe for a moment that traditional martial arts is "fluffy and flowery", or that forms training has no value.  If trained appropriately, the traditional arts are extremely effective, and are not "fluffy and flowery".  And when taught and properly understood and trained, forms training is very valuable.  Not everyone likes forms, and you can learn effective skills without forms.  Forms are just one training tool of many.  But don't write it off just because someone else tells you it's no good.



Well coming from a TKD background with some Kung-Fu, I can tell you that there certainly is a lot of fluffly, flowery forms that aren't very applicable in a real fight. Especially with most of these forms teaching brand new students to keep their hands low and punching from the waist, etc.  in order to pay extra for a different colored belt.  One of the first thing taught in MMA for standup is to always keep your hands up. 


























Then when they fight, they look like sloppy Kickboxers, but more like bar brawlers:






What's that saying? You'll fight how you're trained?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> He said he wanted to learn and be good at fighting on the ground and standing in order to be able to defend himself. MMA will get him there the fastest w/o much of the fluff if efficiency and effectiveness is what he's looking for.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



oh, ok, you know best.

Really friend, are you gonna turn this thread into the old MMA vs. Traditional martial art debate?  You've expressed your opinion, I've expressed mine, and others have expressed theirs.  Give it a rest.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 12, 2012)

bhfeva said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I understand that this topic might have been created several times, i tried to read around the forums and Google but i believe making a topic would help me out the most. ^^
> 
> ...


Quick question..would you mind telling us the area you live in? There are a lot of people on here from different places, and a lot of us also know MA's from even more places, so we may be able to give you a personal recommendation to a school if you tell us the town you live in. If not, that's fine as well.


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## jthomas1600 (Dec 12, 2012)

I wouldn't write anything off until you've visited the school. Some taekwondo schools just play tag with their feet...and some actually spend a good deal of time on self defense including throws and joint locks on a downed opponent. Some jiu jitsu schools focus almost entirely on tournament prep and some spend a good deal of time learning the basics of kick boxing and doing some rolling with mma gloves on throwing punches. So visit all the schools in your area, talk to the instructors, and try the one that best suits your needs. Personally, the options in my town are mma, TKD, some sort of kung fu,...I've opted for the mma gym.


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## Mz1 (Dec 12, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Mz1 has provided one view of one approach to MMA training.  There are others; not everyone bases MMA training on Brazilian JiuJitsu (BJJ) and Mauy Thai.  Other approaches may derive their grappling component from Judo or wrestling more than BJJ, and may draw striking from other sources, as well.  Some very good gyms also don't always have current, active competitors -- but that doesn't automatically mean they're not a legit club.



There still has to be some litmus test to test what's considered to be legit. If his goal is to learn to fight as fast as possible, a legit school for him would be one that produces real fighters who can win competitions. An MMA school that is devoid of BJJ is going to sink real fast in the MMA competition world. 

Like this organization http://csc32.eventbrite.com/  who's base is Karate.  They host MT and MMA events under their WKA designation. They produce champions. And how they succeeded is by following the trend of MMA, bringing in BJJ, MT, Wrestling and Boxing....not like it's some fad, but as a proven necessity. 

The reason that Muay Thai is so popular is because it encompasses all of the striking that you can possibly want to use in a fight. And the MT clinch alone, is a science on its own. Judo is nice, but most people don't like getting thrown 5-6 feet into the air and landing on their side all day. Yeah, there's newaza in Judo, but it mainly focuses on spectacular throws and such for competition, that can be neutralized by BJJ's & Wrestling's defenses. We have Judo night once a week...guess what, not many BJJ's show up for that night. And our sensei's are from a long line of Judokas.


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## Mz1 (Dec 12, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> oh, ok, you know best.
> 
> Really friend, are you gonna turn this thread into the old MMA vs. Traditional martial art debate?  You've expressed your opinion, I've expressed mine, and others have expressed theirs.  Give it a rest.



Seems like you're the one who's getting personal, not me. I've been through the flowery forms training and just showed you proof that pretty much all of them teaches noobs to keep their hands low and punching from the waste. How is this a good thing?


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## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2012)

<<sigh>>  I can't believe I'm actually gonna engage in this idiocy...



Mz1 said:


> There still has to be some litmus test to test what's considered to be legit. If his goal is to learn to fight as fast as possible, a legit school for him would be one that produces real fighters who can win competitions. An MMA school that is devoid of BJJ is going to sink real fast in the MMA competition world.



so....having a bunch of successful competitors is the only way to know that someone can fight?  Even if competition isn't something he's interested in?  There's no way that he can develop functional self defense skills without that competition component going on?

HAHAHAHA!



> The reason that Muay Thai is so popular is because it encompasses all of the striking that you can possibly want to use in a fight.



ALL of it?  nah, there are other ways.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Seems like you're the one who's getting personal, not me. I've been through the flowery forms training and just showed you proof that pretty much all of them teaches noobs to keep their hands low and punching from the waste. How is this a good thing?



you had lousy teachers.  Or it simply wasn't a good match for you.


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## Mz1 (Dec 12, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> <<sigh>>  I can't believe I'm actually gonna engage in this idiocy...
> 
> so....having a bunch of successful competitors is the only way to know that someone can fight?  Even if competition isn't something he's interested in?  There's no way that he can develop functional self defense skills without that competition component going on?
> 
> ...



Once again, I never even bothered talking to you until you specifically engaged in a debate with me. And now you're getting all worked up because I'm refuting your arguments, again. And I like how you managed to fit in the term "idiocy" in order to try and circumvent the rules.  

And it's hard for me to explain to you what a ring or cage fight is like and what it proves when you've never been in one.


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## Mz1 (Dec 12, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> you had lousy teachers.  Or it simply wasn't a good match for you.



I just showed you proof that their hands were down and punching from the waste in 5 different types of MA.

Can you show me your school's video and what you teach beginners?


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## Steve (Dec 12, 2012)

First, I'd like to recommend that we keep the thread focused on answering the original poster's questions and try to avoid an "MMA vs TMA" thread.  We've all been there and done that.  

My personal opinion is that the best style of martial arts for you is the one you enjoy and will consistently train. 

Regarding MMA, there are a ton of different types of schools.  Some schools are run by current or former MMA fighters who do most of the teaching.  They are actually the closest (IMO) to approaching MMA as its own distinct style of martial arts.

Most MMA schools are some combination of striking (typically Muay Thai, boxing or both) and grappling (typically BJJ, Wrestling and potentially some Judo).  The classes are broken down into striking, grappling and then usually "MMA" where you work on integrating everything and skills specific to the sport.

The biggest key is to find a school where the coach's approach meshes with your own.  I believe strongly that a school's students reflect the personality and character of the coach.  Finding a school that's right for you includes finding one where the coach is competent, but also where you will fit in and feel comfortable with the atmosphere.


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> There still has to be some litmus test to test what's considered to be legit. If his goal is to learn to fight as fast as possible, a legit school for him would be one that produces real fighters who can win competitions. An MMA school that is devoid of BJJ is going to sink real fast in the MMA competition world.


If his goal is to compete in MMA, a school with active competitors is certainly a good idea.  But that wasn't in the original post...  And you're assuming that any active competitors got all (or the majority) of their training there.  I've known plenty of MMA fighters who moved around to different gyms, for a variety of reasons.  I know of gyms that have recruited fighters with solid records, too...  So the mere fact that they have guys fighting competitively (we're assuming they're doing reasonably well -- which is also rather a large assumption) doesn't necessarily mean they can coach a beginner effectively, either.


> Like this organization http://csc32.eventbrite.com/  who's base is Karate.  They host MT and MMA events under their WKA designation. They produce champions. And how they succeeded is by following the trend of MMA, bringing in BJJ, MT, Wrestling and Boxing....not like it's some fad, but as a proven necessity.
> 
> The reason that Muay Thai is so popular is because it encompasses all of the striking that you can possibly want to use in a fight. And the MT clinch alone, is a science on its own. Judo is nice, but most people don't like getting thrown 5-6 feet into the air and landing on their side all day. Yeah, there's newaza in Judo, but it mainly focuses on spectacular throws and such for competition, that can be neutralized by BJJ's & Wrestling's defenses. We have Judo night once a week...guess what, not many BJJ's show up for that night. And our sensei's are from a long line of Judokas.



The reason that Muay Thai got popular is that they sold the "we're the ultimate kickboxer" line effectively.  I remember when nobody knew what Muay Thai was...  I also remember when it was next to impossible to hold a kickboxing event with knees and elbows.  The whole idea of Muay Thai being the ultimate striking is kind of like the Gracie's "most fights go to the ground" -- there's more to the story.  (You might research Lethwei, as but one example...)


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## Flying Crane (Dec 12, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> I just showed you proof that their hands were down and punching from the waste in 5 different types of MA.
> 
> Can you show me your school's video and what you teach beginners?



Proof.  From Youtube?  I don't put much credit in what is found in youtube.  It's an example of something that happened at that moment, and nothing more.  It means nothing beyond that.

Hey, I stated earlier: you know best, believe what you want.  I'm content with that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 12, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> <<sigh>>  I can't believe I'm actually gonna engage in this idiocy...


Please please please no more engaging. There's no reason to turn this persons thread into yet another one of these stupid arguments, especially when no ones answer will change.


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## seasoned (Dec 12, 2012)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Wes Yager
-MT Moderator-_


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## Mz1 (Dec 15, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> Proof.  From Youtube?  I don't put much credit in what is found in youtube.  It's an example of something that happened at that moment, and nothing more.  It means nothing beyond that.



So now you're trying to deny hat you don't teach noobs fluffy, flowery forms, punching from the waist  and keeping your hands low. Nice try. 



> Hey, I stated earlier: you know best, believe what you want.  I'm content with that.



And you prove this every time by engaging in debates with me.


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## Mz1 (Dec 15, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> oh, ok, you know best.



And this is what, the 4th time at least you've said this?  



> Really friend, are you gonna turn this thread into the old MMA vs. Traditional martial art debate?  You've expressed your opinion, I've expressed mine, and others have expressed theirs.  Give it a rest.



And this is the 2nd time you've said this in this thread, haha, friend. Yet it's always you who's engaging in debates with me and begging for me to talk to you. Talk about idiocy. I wasn't even talking to you.

What's even funnier is that in my first post in this thread, you know, the one that got you all worked up....I didn't even say anything about TMA. I just said that MMA doesn't waste time on fluffy, flowery forms....yet you immediately assume that it's your style      and you still try to deny those YouTube videos I linked.


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## Mz1 (Dec 15, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> If his goal is to compete in MMA, a school with active competitors is certainly a good idea.  But that wasn't in the original post...  And you're assuming that any active competitors got all (or the majority) of their training there.  I've known plenty of MMA fighters who moved around to different gyms, for a variety of reasons.  I know of gyms that have recruited fighters with solid records, too...  So the mere fact that they have guys fighting competitively (we're assuming they're doing reasonably well -- which is also rather a large assumption) doesn't necessarily mean they can coach a beginner effectively, either.



A school that produces real fighters still have a much better chance of being more legit. 



> The reason that Muay Thai got popular is that they sold the "we're the ultimate kickboxer" line effectively.  I remember when nobody knew what Muay Thai was...  I also remember when it was next to impossible to hold a kickboxing event with knees and elbows.  The whole idea of Muay Thai being the ultimate striking is kind of like the Gracie's "most fights go to the ground" -- there's more to the story.  (You might research Lethwei, as but one example...)



Muay Thai was hardly known in the  USA was due to chopsocky Kung-Fu movies popularizing Kung-Fu in the  70's...especially with the rise of Bruce Lee. Run Run Shaw is obviously going to only promote Chinese MA's and not Thai ones. But before that, it was  Karate.....due to the 2 nukes dropped on Japan and Karate was one of the  things brought back after reconstructing Japan. In the 80's, it was the  Karate Kid and Joon Rhee's "nobody bodders me". 

If you want to talk  about marketing SNAKE OIL, I think that your camp is more guilty of peddling such with the superhuman Kung-Fu fighting movies and doing parlor tricks with breaking boards, ice blocks, cinder blocks, etc.  Bending rubbery spears with the throat, etc.  Does MMA use any of this?






While the Gracies certainly were trying to make a buck, what's wrong  with that? The big difference is, they put their reputation on the line  by challenging people to fight. They didn't pretend nor hide. Vale Tudo  happened and since 1993, UFC 1 dispelled a lot of the chopsocky movie  myths, parlour tricks, and the rest is history.

You know, MMA has been getting popular more and more every single year, and is still the FASTEST growing sport in America. It's been nearly 20 YEARS since UFC 1.  MMA is a multi-billion dollar/year, GLOBAL business. Never before has Martial Artist been able to make such good living and with many becoming multi-million dollar prize fighters, etc. in America. MMA is now it's own science, with all the millions of dollars in endorsement money, etc. feeding it as a well tuned machine.  Yet YOU, still think us MMA'ers are all dummies who can't figure out the difference between a Gracie/Ultimate Kickboxer marketing gimmick and the real deal....even with NEARLY 20 YEARS of PROOF.

It's both marketing AND the real thing. The only reason BJJ and MT is primarily used in MMA is because they work the BEST. MMA is even bringing in Boxing and Wrestling as secondary systems now. Even with the rivalry against Pro Wrestling and Boxing, MMA is still accepting the fact that they certainly work....not some conspiracy to just promote BJJ and MT.


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## seasoned (Dec 15, 2012)

seasoned said:


> _*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
> 
> Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> ...



_
*Consider this the last warning.

ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful, AND __return to the original topic.__
Wes Yager
-MT Moderator-_


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## Takai (Dec 15, 2012)

bhfeva said:


> Hey all,
> 
> I understand that this topic might have been created several times, i tried to read around the forums and Google but i believe making a topic would help me out the most. ^^
> 
> ...



Getting back to the OP. Previous posters have already said this but, I will attempt to bring it back on course.

1) If we knew the area in which you resided we might be able to be more helpful with a personal recommendation. Don't feel pressure to give out that info if you are uncomfortable about it.

2) Do research on what is available in your area. Google it, ask around, etc.

3) When you have narrowed it down check them all out....one at a time. See if you can watch, get some trial time on the mat. Talk instructors and try to get a feel for what they and their instruction is like. If you can watch try to see if you can watch a beginner, intermediate and advanced class. You certainly won't understand the material but, it will give you a feel for what could potentially be in your future training model.

4) Read all contracts carefully. If you feel pressured to sign a contract without being given the time to understand it.....walk away. Better to have your options still open than to be back into a corner with a legally binding contract.

5) Enjoy the process of looking for a place to train. Martial arts should be about the journey and deciding which path to take should be just as enjoyable as the actually training time.

Welcome to MT! Enjoy the journey!


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## Langenschwert (Dec 16, 2012)

MMA training can be very useful. However, the focus of MMA training is a one-on-one sporting competition where competitors are unarmed. It will toughen you up, get you in shape, and if the school is good and you train diligently and well, you will see excellent results. It's a great option. However, it's not the be-all end-all if self-defence is your goal. A Muay Thai clinch is unwise if the opponent has a knife you don't know about, for example. If he pulls it, you won't see it, and you'll be in a dire situation without even knowing it, until it's much too late.

However, if you take MMA, you'll learn how to punch, kick, and grapple, which are fundamental skills you can't do without. If on top of that you take a more SD-themed art (KAPAP is a good choice if you can find it), you'll be as well-prepared as you can be. However, keep in mind that no matter how good your weapon defence is, against an experienced weapons guy, the unarmed person is in serious trouble. You can give an athletic, agressive person a day's training in knife work and they'll make mincemeat out of most unarmed black belts. Would you fight someone whose jab can kill you? I wouldn't... it's bad math. But train as much as you can so you the odds will be stacked in your favour as much as they possibly can be.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Mz1 (Dec 23, 2012)

Langenschwert said:


> MMA training can be very useful. However, the focus of MMA training is a one-on-one sporting competition where competitors are unarmed.



What's lacking in MMA, for example, in dealing against weapons....is many folds lacking in SD and TMA, which is  sparring hard for full knockouts to really test your chin and ability to fight back. 

Training to disarm knives, guns, etc. in general, is just fantasy role playing. Most instructors themselves are basing their teachings on theories also w/o any real life experience. I've trained with weapons in a Jujutsu school for about a year. Instructors were 2 cops, so unlike most SD instructors, they've had some REAL experiences vs. knives in their line of work as cops. And they weren't Barney Fife-type cops in the sticks neither. These were Washington DC cops, with one working in Southeast DC (really bad area on par with Detroit, Oakland, Baltimore, etc.). And what I've found out is that during sparring w/a rubber knife, I can easily slash the hell out of them using my footwork, hand speed, agility, etc... all from being a trained and experienced as an MMA fighter.  At least 8-10 slashes before they get frustrated and go full on, banzai-suicide blitz to get slashed some more, but succeed in grabbing my knife hand to disarm me.  They would never do such if my knife was real and they've got 8-10 deep gashes with their own blood squirting all over the place.  And I wasn't even stabbing them neither, because that rubber knife is real solid and can take an eyeball out, thus I was being extra nice.

It's a good thing that not many SD students are attacked for real, so they never get to find out if what they've been training all this time is worth anything.  



> It will toughen you up, get you in shape, and if the school is good and you train diligently and well, you will see excellent results. It's a great option. However, it's not the be-all end-all if self-defence is your goal.



MMA certainly isn't an end-all system for SD, but it surely beats most SD systems out there IMO. Knife on knife, my experience as a fighter would mean that my hand speed, footwork, reflexes, etc. is going to be way faster than someone who never fought before in their life. Just put the knife in the Boxer's or MMA's power hand and reverse the stance. The jab hand is now going to be lighting fast and powerful. This is exactly how I train with my knives, I shadowbox with it.



> A Muay Thai clinch is unwise if the opponent has a knife you don't know about, for example. If he pulls it, you won't see it, and you'll be in a dire situation without even knowing it, until it's much too late.



Well no experienced MT fighter would just jump in and clinch w/o seeing that there's no weapon first. But once the clinch is about to be locked (takes about 1 second), knees are already going towards their face. I'd like to see someone try to reach for a weapon in their pocket while in the MT plum and eating about 2-3 knees per second to the face.



> However, if you take MMA, you'll learn how to punch, kick, and grapple, which are fundamental skills you can't do without. If on top of that you take a more SD-themed art (KAPAP is a good choice if you can find it), you'll be as well-prepared as you can be. However, keep in mind that no matter how good your weapon defence is, against an experienced weapons guy, the unarmed person is in serious trouble. You can give an athletic, agressive person a day's training in knife work and they'll make mincemeat out of most unarmed black belts. Would you fight someone whose jab can kill you? I wouldn't... it's bad math. But train as much as you can so you the odds will be stacked in your favour as much as they possibly can be.



That's why I don't leave home w/o my 9mm and at least 1 knife, but usually 2 knives and my EDC.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 24, 2012)

Mz1 said:


> Training to disarm knives, guns, etc. in general, is just fantasy role playing. Most instructors themselves are basing their teachings on theories also w/o any real life experience.


While I won't say what most instructors themselves are basing their material on, I will say that I have seen more credible knife disarms than gun disarms, and what few credible gun disarms I have seen won't work unless the gunman is within three feet of you, and even then the outcome is questionable.  

Knife defenses that involve kicks to the weapon hand are, in my opinion, unreliable at best.  On the other hand, I have seen a pretty good selection of knife/hand held weapon disarms that are "credible" against certain types of attacks, but that are either not trained realistically or where it is implied that the material is comprehensive when it isn't.  

Most knife defenses that I have seen are focused on committed attacks; the stereotypical raising the knife high and stabbing down, the holding the knife low and stabbing upwards into the torso, straight thrusts and large slashing attacks.  I have not seen many that deal with rapid, jabbing or quick, light movements that do not require total commitment or large motions.  

In any case, as a new student, the OP probably won't be introduced to weapon defenses for some time anyway, so I'm not sure how relevant weapon defenses are at this point.


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