# Questions about Go Ju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, and Shorin Ryu?



## Mtal

Hi, I was wondering, what are the differences between Go Ju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, and Shorin Ryu? Does one have more White Crane influnce over the other? Do they all do the sanchin Kata? Is one more harder on the body? Do they all incorporate some throws and locks?
Well I am looking to get back into Karate. I used to do Shoto Kan years ago.  I was kind of looking for something different. Okinawan Karate looks pretty cool. I like the White Crane influnce (would take that, but no schools around) and the hard and soft aspects. I am also in my upper 30's. I hear there are not really that many high kicks or deap stances. I also hear there are some joint locks and throws (sounds like to me making it more rounded). Oh, and I need something that gives me a good workout.
It's been a little hard finding out the differences. Go Ju I probably know the most of, and did try a class years ago. I see there is some locks in it, and the sanchin kata looks a lot like white crane. I also here they do some exercises like push hands (I have done tai chi). Oh but I also hear that sanchin might be bad for your blood pressure. I dont have a problem, but hate to cause one.
Shorin Ryu, all I get is that it is just like Go Ju. Is that right.
Uechi Ryu, actually I just came across it. It looks kind of interesting. They do not do as many Kata's as the other ones. It is newer, so I hear some stuff is changed in it. I also here is is very self defence oriented (do not know why that was said, that is all I read). Then I also hear that its roots are very close to white crane, but then I read somewhere else that it is not cause it is a newer style, so it is actually farther away from the white crane influence. 
Well any info would be great. I am going to start to look at some schools, but I wanted to have an idear of what I am looking at before I go.
Thanks.


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## arnisador

Uechi is the newest as a Karate style, but it is a barely modified form of Southern Chinese kung fu. The foudner studied Pangainoon kung fu in China and taught it in Okinawa, where it was eventually renamed and slightly expanded as a Karate style. It's softer (including its Sanchin) and more circular and open-handed than the others.

Shorin is an older Okinawan style, though of course it has a large Chinese influence; indeed, it's name basically means "Shaolin-style" fighting. It's relatively circular and open-handed, and carries on two of the three major early traditions of Okinawan Karate. Most versions don't teach Sanchin but do teach Rohai which is strongly crane-influenced.

Goju is the hardest of the three, though still softer than most Japanese styles. It carries on the third major early tradition of Okinawan Karate. It has a hard Sanchin (but a soft Sanchin-like kata called Tensho) and more closed-hand and linear movements, though again, not as much as a typical Japanese style.

I've studied the Uechi and Goju (though not to instructor level), both of which do indeed have some sensitivity drills,  and a little bit of Shorin. Personally if I were to go back to any of them I'd go back to Uechi, but that's just me! All are good.


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## dancingalone

Frankly, if you're a beginner, you won't see any of locks or throws for a long time to come.  Beginners at most dojos do a lot of basics, moving, stepping, blocking, punching, kicking, etc.   I've dabbled in all three systems, although I have the most experience with Goju myself.  They are all fine systems.  I recommend Goju if you are a slower person physically like I am, although I can pack a whallop!  The whipping method Shorin-ryu people use benefits from a person with faster limbs than I have.  Uechi was fun, but I found the preoccupation with toe kicks and the hiruken(sp?) fist to be distracting after a while.  It seem practicing Uechi meant an inordinate amount of condition for those parts of my foot and hand if I wanted to be effective and true to the style.  Banging on a makiwara was more my speed, so Goju it was.

The white crane is a bit of a holy grail for Okinawan karate people.  They all love to talk about it, and you'll even see those Hakutsuru kata high sought after and coveted by even high level dan rankers.  I think it's a bit of a red herring myself.  The fact is that all three ryus you mentioned have evolved from their Chinese origins (even Uechi).  You can see it by watching a karateka and then watching a Crane player.  Their body structure and mechanics are very different, and the way jin (power) is created among the systems has also diverged.  The link back to Fukien White Crane is interesting, but let's realize that karate is not Crane by a long shot.

Sanchin practice is controversial.  It's certainly true that some karate-ka overdo the tension and MAY be hurting themselves.  I have seen no medical evidence that concludes that sanchin is harmful, but I personally have experienced headaches in my youth when I practiced sanchin with extreme tension across my body.  These days I do it more Chinese-like, and I feel invigorated after repeated a few sets rather than tired as before.


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## Jin Gang

Shorin Ryu is not "just like Goju" at all, really.  They have completely different sets of kata, and move differently.  Also, there are four major branches of shorin ryu, and several others which are branched off of those four.  Each branch teaches some kata that the others don't, and have different own versions of the common ones.  You'll have to find out which styles of shorin ryu your local schools are teaching.  What you get when you go to a school will vary greatly, even within the same branch.  To know exactly what to expect, you'd have to watch a class or two.
  It's true that karate "should" have grappling and throwing practice, but in reality you will be lucky to find a traditional school practices these things regularly.  Though these techniques are a big component of most kata's application, this knowledge is still being rediscovered and reverse-engineered by many teachers.  Karate training in America has mostly consisted of punching, kicking, and blocking since the sixties.  The school which has more is still rare, I think.
  As for the white crane influence...you can see it a little bit here and there, though greatly changed from the origin.  As was said earlier, none of the Okinawan styles really look like white crane anymore.  I think that white crane was only one of several influences on karate styles.  
The style which Uechi Ryu comes from is said to be based on the techniques of tiger, crane, and dragon.  It's three major kata, Sanchin, Seisan, and Sanseiryu, are also found in Goju Ryu (though Uechi does them differently).  According to its lineage, Uechi is the closest to its Chinese roots.
Shorin Ryu does not have sanchin.  It has naihanchi, which some consider a "conditioning" kata equivalent to the way sanchin is used in Goju and Uechi.  Naihanchi is the same as "tekki" in shotokan (which is mostly from shorin ryu).  However, Okinawan schools practice it somewhat differently than the Japanese.  
Seisan is found in some shorin ryu branches, though the shorin seisan is very different, much shorter and more simple, than the goju and uechi seisan kata.  

The kata Rohai spoken of in an earlier post is found in Matsubayashi Ryu branch of shorin ryu.  I know that Shito Ryu also has it (shito ryu collected almost all the kata from all the okinawan styles, naha, shuri, and tomari).  It is probably one of the more "crane like" kata, though extremely short.  It is considered an advanced kata, so you probably won't learn it for four or five years (around shodan or nidan).

I think the easiest way to tell the difference between all the styles is just to watch them

This website has general descriptions and lineages of some of the major styles, and a few videos
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/index.html

Another way to look at the differences is to put a style name or kata name into youtube or google video and see what you come up with.  There are lots of videos of kata and practicing out there.


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## twendkata71

Good post. That web site is a very good reference web site for Okinawan karate.  
I have had the opportunity to study Shorin ryu and some Goju ryu. And they are very different in most aspects. The common thread between Shorin ryu,Goju ryu and Uechi ryu karate is that they all come from southern styles of Chinese boxing. Shorin ryu is supposed to have some connection to Shoalin temple styles. The other two styles do not have the implied connection to Shoalin.


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## Live True

Mtal said:


> Oh but I also hear that sanchin might be bad for your blood pressure. I dont have a problem, but hate to cause one.


 
I can't speak to this personally, being very new to Uechi, but I did remember an article that may be of interest form George Mattson's Uechi-ryu.com site titled: *Sanchin Breathing: Are you hurting yourself?* 
http://uechi-ryu.com/breathng.htm

Bill Glasheen (the author) had the following qualifications at the time of the article: A doctorate in biomedical engineering with an emphasis in systems physiology. A dissertation on rhythms in cardiopulmonary systems, which includes quantification of how respiration affects arterial and venous pressure, heart rate, and peripheral vascular flow. Five years of research in the field of cardiology. Renshi rokudan in Uechi Ryu (one "style" of sanchin). Nidan in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (another "style of sanchin).

Hope this is helpful!


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## Victor Smith

Wow. talk about a complicated question. All answers are bound to be too short of reality.

Hiagonna Kayro taught the arts he studied in China during the later 1800's in the Naha area. His students preserved some of those arts in Goju Ryu and To'on Ryu. [To'on Ryu is only found in Japan in a small group and one instructor in Vancouver Canada. The kata content is different than Goju's.]

Goju Ryu is the creation of Miyagi Chojun from his studies with Hiagonna Kayro in Naha (who trained in China), including his teachers forms and other forms, including new beginner kata.

Shorin Ryu encompases a wider range of practices descended from areas like Shuri and Tomari. Some of the representative groups (in random order) are:

1. Soken Hohen's Shorin training from his Grandfather. He created the Matsumura Orthodox Shorin Ryu system (the names have kept changing). This system descended from Matsumura Bushi from the mid 1800's. From the 1920's till after WWII he lived in South America. Returning home to Okinawa he spent the remainder ofh is life sharing part of his arts.
His art includes a family form of Crane training (kata Hakutsuru).

2. Itosu's Shorin training (also descended from Matsumura Bushi and others). Itosu crafted the Pinan kata for high school students training. His students (Funakoshi Ginchin-Shotokan and Mabuni Kenwa Shito Ryu) moved Karate to Japan. 

3. Kyan Chotoku also a student of Matsumura Bushi and others including instructors from Tomari taught a number of instructors. Among them Nagamine (Matsubahshi), Isshinryu (Shimabuku T), Shobayshi (Shimabuku E), Seibuakan (Shimabukuro Z), Shorinji Ryu and other strong groups (only going from memory now).  

Ueichi Ryu came from China in the late 1800's, but Uechi Sensei moved to Japan and didn't return to Okinawa until 1948 or so. The original version of the art only contains 3 kata Sanchin, Seisan and Sanseiryu

A quick survey of some basic kata

Goju and To'on Ryu included Sanchin

Itosu's included Naifanchi and the Pinan
  Funakoshi Ginchin included Naifanchi (Tekki) and the Pinan (Heian)
  Mabuni Kenwa included Sanchin, Naifanchi and the Pinan

Kyan's teaching did not use Sanchin, Naifanchi or the Pinan
  Nagamine (Matsubayshi) included Pinan and Naifanchi
  Shimabukuro Zenryo (Seibukan) included Naifanchi
   Shiambukuro Zempo (Seibukan) included Naifanchi and Pinan)
  Shimabuk Tatsuo (Isshinryu) included Sanchin and Naifanchi
  Shimabuku Ezio (Shobayshi) included Sanchin, Naifanchi and Pinan
  Shorinji Ryu did not use Sanchin, Naifanchi or the Pinan

Uechi included Sanchin (done full speed for full application)

I'm unfairly not mentioning many other Okinawan systems (say Kojo Ryu, Chito-Ryu, and many others) but I think this is a fair sampling of them.  What you do see is there is no universal rule that applies. The real rule is instructors changes as they see fit.

When someone from way outside of the Okinawan systems takes a look, they find that the Goju and Shorin systems are using pretty much the same techniques, just variations of each other such as speed and timing. 

As whether crane is a  big influence on the Okinawan systems, it depends on who you talk to and which crane system you're looking at.

If you take the time to look at southern chinese white crane systems, you'll eventually see, even if the Crane - Karate link is true, things have changed so much the link is far less meaningful, IMO. Of course it equaly may have been the Okinawan's didn't train far enough in the Chinese systems to really get 'it'.

One interesting thought is that a kata like Seisan may be one of the true unifying links across all the Okinawan systems. Sure groups like Matsubayshi don't practice it (Nagamine had previous training when he began with Kyan and it may be that Kyan felt he didn't need seisan?), but many groups do.

While there are vast differences between Seisan execution and the number of techniques in the kata (named 13 for Seisan) There is a common core that remains present in all of the versions. That core might be the original Seisan source. 

I never feel the key is the system, rather the instructor. All fo those systems are great if you have a great instructor that motivates you correctly. Watch schools, talk to students (and previous students) and check out the instructor. That's the more important issue.


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## Brian S

> I never feel the key is the system, rather the instructor. All fo those systems are great if you have a great instructor that motivates you correctly. Watch schools, talk to students (and previous students) and check out the instructor. That's the more important issue.
> __________________


 
 I'll second that!! Excellent post Victor.

 :ubercool:


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## TimoS

Victor Smith said:


> Shorinji Ryu did not use Sanchin, Naifanchi or the Pinan



Actually, Joen Nakazato's Shorinji ryu Kyudokan has Naifanchi. They practise only Naifanchi shodan. Other than that, fully agree with you, especially on your point that the instructor is more important than the style. One of the seniors in my previous style said that the style becomes important (to some, at least) around the time you reach shodan


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## TimoS

Jin Gang said:


> Seisan is found in some shorin ryu branches, though the shorin seisan is very different, much shorter and more simple, than the goju and uechi seisan kata.



Don't think I've seen the Uechi Seisan, but I've seen videos of Goju Seisan and although it is quite different from Shorin Seisan, which I'm familiar with, I find that there are many commonalities also. In my opinion, they probably stem from the same kata and just have evolved along different paths.


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## Victor Smith

Timo,

I believe you are right about the Shorinji-ryu using Naifanchi, I don't have access  to my home records right now. From several sources I have heard each of Kyan's students who became instructors did adopt Naifanchi to their systems, but they also each used a different source.

As for Uechi Seisan try 



This shows Uechi Kanei performing the 'short-er' version of the form. There are several strikes that can be added at the beginning for the 'long-er' version and both are practiced. The rest of the form remains unchanged.

Uechi uses finger tip strikes, toe tip strikes and thumb and knuckle strikes. Their form does not use the flat fist.

In all of the Seisan variations the link is they have a common embusen. The commonality:

1. A row of techniques going forward
2. A turn
3. A row of techniques going backward
4. A series of techniques in a "+" pattern.

When you get past the type of techniques, the extension of some movements into others, and the choice of adding extra rows of techniques at the ending to the original core, you see the expression of various instructors needs, IMO.

But Okinawan kata, which moved in very fluid directions, still rarely changed the core embusen. So 15 Patsai still is recognizably Patsai, and so forth for other kata.

It may be by keeping the core embusen intact their changes were not changing the past, but reacting to their current reality.

of course the last is just my opinion.


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## TimoS

Victor Smith said:


> Timo,
> 
> I believe you are right about the Shorinji-ryu using Naifanchi, I don't have access  to my home records right now. From several sources I have heard each of Kyan's students who became instructors did adopt Naifanchi to their systems, but they also each used a different source.



Here's the version of Nakazato's Shorinji school http://www.shao.sakura.ne.jp/data/kata03.wmv (the page has all their kata). I have also heard that their version of Naifanchi is different from what is practised in e.g. Seibukan, but as I haven't yet seen the Seibukan Naifanchi, I can't really compare them. I have done a version of Naifanchi in my previous style, but it's again different from the Seibukan version


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## Brandon Fisher

Good to hear you are interested in Okinawan Karate..  Not all the styles do Sanchin I believe Shobayashi Shorin Ryu might and I know Hohan Soken at one time did teach Matsumura Sanchin but quit apparently due to the health risks.  Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu are built on Sanchin especially Uechi Ryu.

Shorin Ryu is not like Goju Ryu they both have distinct differences.  Shorin Ryu is a more upright higher stances where Goju ryu uses both high and deep stances depending on what they are practicing at the time.  So Shorin Ryu schools use deeper stances than others.  Shorin ryu Shorinkan for example and other Kobayashi schools of Shorin Ryu use higher stances primarily its difficult to notice the stance sometimes when looking at it but in fact the stance may be very strong.  Matsumura Seito uses very high stances also but some lower.  Seidokan under Seiki Toma lineage uses a combination of both high and low stances similar to the same application as goju ryu.

Uechi Ryu I believe practices 8 kata but they must be perfect in practice and application.  The style is not really that new has it was originally call Pangai Noon and than Kanbun Uechi passed away it was named Uechi Ryu.

As far as joint locking and throws yes every okinwan karate style incorporates them at the more advanced levels.  In okinawan karate the basics are extremely enforced so joint locks and such are normally reserved for high ranking karate-ka.  But they are there and they are devastating when done correctly.

Here are some videos for you:
Goju Ryu (Higaonna Sensei, 10th Dan (recently promoted)  Seisan)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XjddaBWugLs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=wD7LH92TDuA

Uechi ryu (Shinjo Sensei, 8th Dan)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Hkz-8_Q6hOs

Shorin Ryu (Matsuda Sensei, 9th Dan of Meibukan Shorin Ryu)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7tn9EpYc5pc

I hope this helps!!


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## chinto

ok  Shorin ryu system, there are 4 major ones in that. namely Kobayashi Shorin ryu, Shobayashi Shorin ryu, Matsubayashi Shorin ryu, and Motsumura seito .  they have either Shuri-te, or Tamari-te in them. but they are some of the oldest systems of karate. They do have a fair amount of White Crane influence in them along with some other systems, and the native Okinawan systems they were blended with and developed with. there are a couple of versions of the crane Kata in the Shorin ryu systems
Goju ryu came from Shorei ryu that was systematized by Kanryo Higaonna who studied ryo ryu ko, also  ru ru ko  systems  in fuchou and  wai shin zan in fuchou as well. he brought it  back to Naha and mixed it with what he had learned of the Naha system of karate to become Shorei ryu and his student who succeeded him,  Chojun Miyagi changed the name to  Goju ryu ( hard soft style.) it is a harder system then most Shorin systems .. there is a goju version of the hakutsuru ( crane ) Kata in goju ryu as well.

the last Uechi ryu is provably the least modified and newest of the systems to be tought on Okinawa. Of the ones you mentioned. I do not know if the Uechi ryu system has a Hakutsuru Kata


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## TimoS

chinto said:


> ok  Shorin ryu system, there are 4 major ones in that. namely Kobayashi Shorin ryu, Shobayashi Shorin ryu, Matsubayashi Shorin ryu, and Motsumura seito



and the 5th major branch is Shorin ryu Seibukan


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## chinto

TimoS said:


> and the 5th major branch is Shorin ryu Seibukan




ok, not fumilare with that branch myself, and do not know its linage.  but I have heard the name a few times here.


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## TimoS

chinto said:


> ok, not fumilare with that branch myself, and do not know its linage.  but I have heard the name a few times here.



The lineage is from Chotoku Kyan. Kyan taught Zenryo Shimabukuro, who founded Seibukan. Currently the style is headed by his son Zenpo Shimabukuro. Off-hand I can't name who taught Kyan, as there were several teachers


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## twendkata71

Kyan Chotoku Hanshi's teachers were:
Oyadomari Kokan,Matsumora Kosaku, and Itosu Ankoh. After viewing the karate that his students teach,pass down,etc. I would have to believe that Itosu and Matsumora had the most influence on what his karate style became. Oyadomari was a tomari ti person and the other two teachers were Shuri ti teachers if I am not mistaken.


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## chinto

twendkata71 said:


> Kyan Chotoku Hanshi's teachers were:
> Oyadomari Kokan,Matsumora Kosaku, and Itosu Ankoh. After viewing the karate that his students teach,pass down,etc. I would have to believe that Itosu and Matsumora had the most influence on what his karate style became. Oyadomari was a tomari ti person and the other two teachers were Shuri ti teachers if I am not mistaken.



yes but I can say that the style I study, Shobayashi Shorin ryu is 70% to 80% tamari-te  and the 20% to 30% left over is shuri-te... and Kyan Chotoku Hanshi was the founder of the style.


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## TimoS

Just a couple of points: first, I'm pretty sure that Itosu was not one of Kyan's teachers, but I will check. Second, and I've said this before, Kyan was not a hanshi. If he had lived later on, sure, he most likely would've been a hanshi, but back in his days karate people just didn't get those titles


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## twendkata71

I stand corrected. You are right. He did not have that title because they did not use the title while he was alive, pre WW2.  As far as the other point. My research led me  to the conclusion that he trained with Itosu, it is on several sites as Itosu being one of his teachers.


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## TimoS

twendkata71 said:


> My research led me  to the conclusion that he trained with Itosu, it is on several sites as Itosu being one of his teachers.



I've also seen that claim, however as far I've understood things, Kyan and Itosu were more collegues than teacher and student. Kyan's karate looks quite different from Itosu's (this based on looking at karate that is in their direct lineages), since Kyan, due to his small stature, emphasized the shikodachi-zenkutsudachi turn, which is a "trademark" of at least Seibukan. Also, Kyan did not teach the Pinan kata, which, as we all know, were a "trademark" of Itosu's karate. 

If I remember correctly, one of my friends told me that the most likely origin of the confusion about Itosu being (one of) Kyan's teachers stems from the fact that they both taught karate at the same school.

I've send a question about this to couple of people, I'll be interested to see what they have to say about this

edit: just got a reply back about this. According to Shimabukuros (Zenryo and his son Zenpo, in this case), Joen Nakazato and Choshin Chibana Kyan was not a student of Itosu


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## Ray B

Just to clear things up regarding the whole Shorin classification thing.

Shobayashi- Kyan influenced
Kobayashi - Chibana influenced
Matsubayashi - Nagamine influenced
Matsumura Seito - Matsumura influenced

Important to note, Nagamine was a student of Kyan.

Alternative pronuciation of Shobayashi is Sukunaihayashi. 
They use the same kanji. This is the translation the Seibukan
likes to use.


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## Ray B

According to Mark Bishop's book: "Okinawan Karate, Teachers, Styles
and Secret Techniques", Kyan's teachers were Matsumura Sokon, Chatan
Yara, Oyadomari Kokan, Matsumora Kosaku and Penchin Tokumine.

As TimoS wrote earlier, the shiko dachi is used more frequently
in the Kyan based systems. Just look at the Matsubayashi
and Seibukan kata compared to the Itosu based kata.

Important to note, Shimabukuro's Pinan, Passai Gwa and I believe
Naihanchi, come from Nakama Sensei who was a student of Chibana.


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## TimoS

Ray B said:


> According to Mark Bishop's book: "Okinawan Karate, Teachers, Styles
> and Secret Techniques", Kyan's teachers were Matsumura Sokon, Chatan
> Yara, Oyadomari Kokan, Matsumora Kosaku and Penchin Tokumine.



Just remembered this interesting image









> Important to note, Shimabukuro's Pinan, Passai Gwa and I believe
> Naihanchi, come from Nakama Sensei who was a student of Chibana.



Yes and apparently also Jion comes from the same source.


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## twendkata71

Just a point of fact. Nagamine Shoshin Hanshi did not just influence the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, He founded Matsubayashi ryu. He was a short term student of Kyan Chotoku. Nagamine Hanshi taught the Pinan series of kata. He did not learn them from Motobu Choki, Perhaps he learned them from Aragaki Ankichi,though I don't think that Aragaki was a student of Itosu's either. Actually the first person Nagamine trained with was (for a very brief introduction) was Shimabukuro Eizo. If memory serves me right.  I used to be a student of Matsubayashi ryu karate do. And that was what I was taught.  And perhaps instead of being a student of Itosu's, as you stated they taught at he same place, they exchanged ideas. Just a thought. :asian:  Thank you for the valuable information.


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## chinto

twendkata71 said:


> Just a point of fact. Nagamine Shoshin Hanshi did not just influence the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, He founded Matsubayashi ryu. He was a short term student of Kyan Chotoku. Nagamine Hanshi taught the Pinan series of kata. He did not learn them from Motobu Choki, Perhaps he learned them from Aragaki Ankichi,though I don't think that Aragaki was a student of Itosu's either. Actually the first person Nagamine trained with was (for a very brief introduction) was Shimabukuro Eizo. If memory serves me right.  I used to be a student of Matsubayashi ryu karate do. And that was what I was taught.  And perhaps instead of being a student of Itosu's, as you stated they taught at he same place, they exchanged ideas. Just a thought. :asian:  Thank you for the valuable information.




Possible,  Jion is not in our system of Shobayashi though... so not sure where that one comes from.


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## Ray B

TimoS said:


> Yes and apparently also Jion comes from the same source.


 

Thanks Timo, I couldn't remember what the last one was.
I was away from my books.

My use of the word influenced can be substituted for founder.
But aren't we all founders of our karate? We follow certain
criteria of the ryuha, but every person spins things differently.
Miyahira, Nakazato, Higa and Nakama were all students of
Chibana, but their karate has a slightly different flavor to it.

Just a thought...
Happy Holidays.


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## Ray B

twendkata71 said:


> Just a point of fact. Nagamine Shoshin Hanshi did not just influence the Matsubayashi ryu Shorin ryu, He founded Matsubayashi ryu. He was a short term student of Kyan Chotoku. Nagamine Hanshi taught the Pinan series of kata. He did not learn them from Motobu Choki, Perhaps he learned them from Aragaki Ankichi,though I don't think that Aragaki was a student of Itosu's either. Actually the first person Nagamine trained with was (for a very brief introduction) was Shimabukuro Eizo. If memory serves me right. I used to be a student of Matsubayashi ryu karate do. And that was what I was taught. And perhaps instead of being a student of Itosu's, as you stated they taught at he same place, they exchanged ideas. Just a thought. :asian: Thank you for the valuable information.


 
According to Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do",
he lists his teachers as Chojin Kuba, Taro Shimabuku, Ankichi Arakaki,
Kodatsu Iha, (disciple of Matsumura), Chotoku Kyan and Choki Motobu.
He also states that he was a student of Kyan from 1931 to 1935.

The Pinans could have come from Arakaki who was a student of Chibana
or Iha who was teaching karate in the Naha school systems at the time.
I'm thinking both.

Peace.


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## TimoS

Ray B said:


> According to Nagamine's book, "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-do",
> he lists his teachers as Chojin Kuba, *Taro Shimabuku*, Ankichi Arakaki,
> Kodatsu Iha, (disciple of Matsumura), Chotoku Kyan and Choki Motobu.



Thought that Eizo Shimabukuro sounded wrong for Nagamine's teachers, though it is easy to get confused with all those Shimabukuros in various Shorin branches


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## twendkata71

Thank you for the correction. As I went through my copy of Nagamine's "Essence of Okinawan karate". I see that you are correct. It was the elder Shimabukuro Taro, perhaps before he founded Isshin ryu.  I also think that you are correct in that Nagamine Hanshi perhaps did learn the pinan kata from Aragaki. 
And in response to the other gentleman, Matsubayashi ryu also does not teach Jion as part of the curriculum.


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## Victor Smith

Nope,

Right church wrong pew.

There are many Okinawan's using the family name Shimabuku/Shimabukuro which is the same name.  Shimabuku being the original Okinawan pronunciation and Shimabukuro being the Japanese pronunciation of the same name.

Isshinryu's founder is Shimabuku Tatsuo not Shimabukuro Taro. They may or may not have been related.

Now I recall reading that Nagamine was a police officer in Japan and know he had previous karate training before meeting Kyan Chotoku. I always assumed the inclusion of the Pinan kata came from that training.

Becuase of his previous training, Kyan did not start him with Seisan kata, it was assumed he didn't need it, and in turn Nagamine's Matsubayshi-ryu does not include Seisan, which all of the other Kyan lineages use. Seisan was the first kata Kyan taught.

As time passed some of the Kyan lineage styles did incorporate the Pinan kata, and all of them did incorporate the Naifanchi kata, which Kyan also did not teach (Dan Smith of the Seibukan is one of the sources on that point).

Okinawan karate always represents the rule each generation of instructors made their own choices.


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## twendkata71

boy did I get my names mixed up. Must be working too much.


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## chinto

Victor Smith said:


> Nope,
> 
> Right church wrong pew.
> 
> There are many Okinawan's using the family name Shimabuku/Shimabukuro which is the same name.  Shimabuku being the original Okinawan pronunciation and Shimabukuro being the Japanese pronunciation of the same name.
> 
> Isshinryu's founder is Shimabuku Tatsuo not Shimabukuro Taro. They may or may not have been related.
> 
> Now I recall reading that Nagamine was a police officer in Japan and know he had previous karate training before meeting Kyan Chotoku. I always assumed the inclusion of the Pinan kata came from that training.
> 
> Becuase of his previous training, Kyan did not start him with Seisan kata, it was assumed he didn't need it, and in turn Nagamine's Matsubayshi-ryu does not include Seisan, which all of the other Kyan lineages use. Seisan was the first kata Kyan taught.
> 
> As time passed some of the Kyan lineage styles did incorporate the Pinan kata, and all of them did incorporate the Naifanchi kata, which Kyan also did not teach (Dan Smith of the Seibukan is one of the sources on that point).
> 
> Okinawan karate always represents the rule each generation of instructors made their own choices.




Interesting, as Shobayashi Shorin ryu has both Seisan, and Naihanchi Kata...


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## Henderson

chinto said:


> ...there is a goju version of the hakutsuru ( crane ) Kata in goju ryu as well...


 
Are you refering to Hakutsuru no Mai, a creation of Toguchi Seikichi, or another crane form?


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## Jin Gang

TimoS said:


> I've also seen that claim, however as far I've understood things, Kyan and Itosu were more collegues than teacher and student. Kyan's karate looks quite different from Itosu's (this based on looking at karate that is in their direct lineages), since Kyan, due to his small stature, emphasized the shikodachi-zenkutsudachi turn, which is a "trademark" of at least Seibukan. Also, Kyan did not teach the Pinan kata, which, as we all know, were a "trademark" of Itosu's karate.
> 
> If I remember correctly, one of my friends told me that the most likely origin of the confusion about Itosu being (one of) Kyan's teachers stems from the fact that they both taught karate at the same school.
> 
> I've send a question about this to couple of people, I'll be interested to see what they have to say about this
> 
> edit: just got a reply back about this. According to Shimabukuros (Zenryo and his son Zenpo, in this case), Joen Nakazato and Choshin Chibana Kyan was not a student of Itosu


 
Not that it is really imporant, but just to put things in perspective.  Kyan was 40 years younger than Itosu, and 72 years younger than Matsumura Sokon.  He most likely attended Matsumura's school as a teenager, which would have been just a few years before Matsumura died.  At this time, Itosu would have been the head instructor there, doing most of the actual teaching, while Matsumura was technically the master.  So it would be accurate to say that Kyan was a student of both Matsumura and Itosu at the same time.  I think, with 40 years difference in age, it is safe to say that Kyan and Itosu were not colleagues, instructing at the same time and place.
The only kata that Kyan taught which come from the Ituso/Matsumura lineage are seisan and gojushiho.  His Passai, Wanshu, Kusanku, and Chinto are all from different teachers, mostly from the tomari area.  This is why Kyan's styles look different from the Itosu/Matsumura shorin schools...he didn't spend too much time training under them.


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## TimoS

Jin Gang said:


> Not that it is really imporant, but just to put things in perspective.  Kyan was 40 years younger than Itosu, and 72 years younger than Matsumura Sokon.  He most likely attended Matsumura's school as a teenager, which would have been just a few years before Matsumura died.  At this time, Itosu would have been the head instructor there, doing most of the actual teaching, while Matsumura was technically the master.  So it would be accurate to say that Kyan was a student of both Matsumura and Itosu at the same time.  I think, with 40 years difference in age, it is safe to say that Kyan and Itosu were not colleagues, instructing at the same time and place.
> The only kata that Kyan taught which come from the Ituso/Matsumura lineage are seisan and gojushiho.  His Passai, Wanshu, Kusanku, and Chinto are all from different teachers, mostly from the tomari area.  This is why Kyan's styles look different from the Itosu/Matsumura shorin schools...he didn't spend too much time training under them.



Ok, first of all I'll confess I don't know so much about this issue, which is why I forwarded this comment to someone who knows a lot more about the history. (And yes, while it isn't important per se, it is kind of fun to discuss history ) Here are some of his comments into this:
First and foremost, where is Itosu's Seisan?
According to Funakoshi, Itosu was mainly a student of Gusukuma of Tomari. Itosu did train under Matsumura also, but the successor of Matsumura was Azato, not Itosu


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## Jin Gang

TimoS said:


> Ok, first of all I'll confess I don't know so much about this issue, which is why I forwarded this comment to someone who knows a lot more about the history. (And yes, while it isn't important per se, it is kind of fun to discuss history ) Here are some of his comments into this:
> 
> First and foremost, where is Itosu's Seisan?
> According to Funakoshi, Itosu was mainly a student of Gusukuma of Tomari. Itosu did train under Matsumura also, but the successor of Matsumura was Azato, not Itosu


 
I don't know where Itosu's seisan is now.  I read that Kyan learned it from him or Matsumura, but other articles contradict that and say it wasn't taught in shuri at all, only tomari and naha.  So it might have come from Matsumora or someone else.  For sure, Kyan's gojushiho came from Matsumura/Itosu.  If Kyan learned his seisan from Matsumura, then it exists today in Isshin ryu and Shobayashi ryu. 

I know that Funakoshi had said his primary instructor was Azato.  But this doesn't mean he was Matsumura's chief instructor or successor.  If he were so prominent, why do no other shuri te lineages mention him?  All of them have Itosu in their lineage.  I don't know for sure, but I'm going with the common story from all the various shorin ryu schools.  No one mentions a Gusukuma of tomari in there, as Itosu's teacher.  I have heard of Shinpan Gusukuma, who was one of Itosu's students.
  The tomari teachers I've heard of that were contemporary of Matsumura were Teruya Kishin and Uku Giko.  Their top students, Matsumora Kosaku and Oyadomari Koken, were around the same age as Itosu.  They were the primary teachers of tomari te, Chotoku Kyan's primary source of instruction.  Of course, there were lots of karate teachers and practicioners out there that are not well known, and surely may have taught a thing or two to the famous teachers that we've all heard of today.  It was a much less formal setting back then, I think, and it seems like it was common for people to learn a little here and a little there from various teachers.  
So if Azato was the successor of Matsumura, it was in name only, as Itosu is the one who clearly was teaching most of the students and is credited in all the shorin ryu systems.


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## TimoS

Jin Gang said:


> If Kyan learned his seisan from Matsumura, then it exists today in Isshin ryu and Shobayashi ryu.



Oh? And why not in Kobayashi ryu, which is the direct line from Itosu? 



> I know that Funakoshi had said his primary instructor was Azato.



Perhaps I was unclear: I meant that Itosu's main instructor was Gusukuma and Azato's main instructor was Matsumura.


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## Jin Gang

Don't know why Kobayashi ryu wouldn't have it.  Like I said, there are conflicting sources of information.  Some people say Kyan learned it from Matsumura, others from Matsumora or someone else in tomari.  Those two names are easy to get mixed up.  If Itosu's school doesn't have it, then it probably didn't come from Matsumura.  

If someone named Gusukuma was Itosu's primary teacher, none of the shorin ryu lineages aknowledge that.  He seems to have been left out of all the charts and stories.  It's pretty widely aknowledged that Itosu learned from Matsumura, though, and passed on his style to many students who formed their own schools.  Azato was also a student of Matsumura, of the same generation as Itosu.  As far as I know, the only student of his that we know of today is Funakoshi.  Where did this information come from, about Gusukuma?  I'm not saying it isn't true, just that no one mentions him.  He seems to have been forgotten by most people.  Were any other prominent teachers students of his?


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## TimoS

This is getting off-topic, so maybe some moderator could split the discussion to a separate thread?

Ok, had a word about this with my source. Here's his response:

First, Gusukuma. Gusukuma (Shiroma) is a common name in okinawa, so there have been other karate instructors than Shinpan (Gusukuma) Shiroma, who was about 20 years junior to Funakoshi. Also Funakoshi is not the only one who considered that Itosu wasn't only Matsumura's student, also Motobu in his book "Watashi no Karate Jutsu" writes: "Itosu was Matsumura's pupil, but because he was slow, Matsumura didn't like Itosu, so Itosu left and started practising with Nagahama". Now we can deduce from these bits of information that Itosu wasn't the #1 student at Matsumura's dojo and it is also likely that he wasn't even present when Kyan practised there. 
Itosu's most noted disciple Chosin Chibana, who knew Kyan quite well, doesn't consider Kyan as Itosu's student and neither do Kyan's own pupils Zenryo Shimabukuro and Joen Nakazato. By the way, the only Kyan's pupil who has made the connection between Itosu and Kyan is Matsubayashi ryu founder Shoshin Nagamine. As to where he got the idea, I have no idea. In the styles in Kyan's lineage there aren't any signs of Itosu's karate (e.g. where are the Pinan kata? E.g. Seibukan has added them later, Zenryo Shimabukuro didn't teach them)
Now then, whose student Kyan was then? Kyan sensei wasn't the successor of Matsumura, because he studied under Matsumura only for a few years. Kyan continued his studies in Tomari area with Matsumora, Maeda and Oyadomari. His last teacher was Yara, because he happened to live close-by when Kyan moved to Kadena. People often also forget to mention Kyan's father, Kyan Chofu, who is considered to be Matsumura's student.
It isn't correct to say that the reason Kyan's karate looks different from Itosu's is that Kyan practised in Tomari area. When Kyan was practising at Matsumura's dojo, Itosu's karate didn't, per se, even exist yet. It would be more correct to say that because Kyan practised in Tomari, his karate is different from Matsumura's karate. Also we need to remember that Kyan was quite a unique character as a karateka, why else would his karate have been known by his contempories as "Chan migua ti" ("Small eye Kyan's karate" is an approximate translation)


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## TimoS

Jin Gang said:


> Where did this information come from, about Gusukuma?  I'm not saying it isn't true, just that no one mentions him.  He seems to have been forgotten by most people.  Were any other prominent teachers students of his?



Ok, here, apparently is the trouble with the old okinawan names. The trouble is that the okinawan names weren't written in kanji, so it is possible that when Funakoshi wrote his book that he didn't know what kanji were used in Gusukuma's name, if any. What we know that this Gusukuma was from Tomari, but we cannot be certain that his name was really Gusukuma and not e.g. Uku Karuya, who was Matsumora's teacher. Also, it wouldn't be unheard of that this "Gusukuma" didn't have many students, so he isn't necessarily a well known instructor.


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## Ray B

My lineage is through Chibana. This is what I heard.

There is a Matsumura Seisan. It is different from the
Goju Seisan. 

Kyan taught Seisan because it taught the
basic principles of his karate. Itosu created the Pinan
series which teaches the principles of his karate.
It is said that Nagamine did not teach the Seisan kata
because he chose to teach the Pinan. This I got
from my friends in Matsubayashi.


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## Ray B

chinto said:


> Interesting, as Shobayashi Shorin ryu has both Seisan, and Naihanchi Kata...


 
This is why Shimabukuro Zempo went to Nakama Sensei (Student of
Chibana and Motobu) for the Pinan and Passai Gwa. Prior to that,
there was no Itosu influence.


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## Ray B

Regarding Chibana, Kyan and Motobu. There is evidence that the
three families are descended from the same line so they were some
how related. Motobu originally sent for Chibana to come to Japan
to teach but Chibana declined and Mabuni went in his stead. There
are pictures showing Kyan and Chibana together so they obviously
knew each other.


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## TimoS

Ray B said:


> This is why Shimabukuro Zempo went to Nakama Sensei (Student of
> Chibana and Motobu) for the Pinan and Passai Gwa. Prior to that,
> there was no Itosu influence.



Kind of. Actually what happened is that Nakama sensei was staying often at the Shimabukuro house when he was working in the area. I think he was married to  Shimabukuro Zenryo's sister, or was it the other way round (I can't remember, but I will check tomorrow). Anyway, that's how Shimabukuro Zenpo sensei got taught the Pinan and Passai Gwa, and if remember correctly, also the three Naifanchi kata


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## TimoS

Ray B said:


> Regarding Chibana, Kyan and Motobu. There is evidence that the
> three families are descended from the same line so they were some
> how related. Motobu originally sent for Chibana to come to Japan
> to teach but Chibana declined and Mabuni went in his stead. There
> are pictures showing Kyan and Chibana together so they obviously
> knew each other.



Yes. After all, Kyan's father was a high official in the court of the king of Okinawa and I think that Chibana was some sort of noble also (again, I could check these tomorrow, since two really knowledgeable persons are here in town for the weekend)


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## Ray B

TimoS said:


> Kind of. Actually what happened is that Nakama sensei was staying often at the Shimabukuro house when he was working in the area. I think he was married to Shimabukuro Zenryo's sister, or was it the other way round (I can't remember, but I will check tomorrow). Anyway, that's how Shimabukuro Zenpo sensei got taught the Pinan and Passai Gwa, and if remember correctly, also the three Naifanchi kata


 
I don't know the relationship exactly, but I do know that Nakama Sensei
was an old family friend. Please, let me know of your findings.

Thanks Timo San!


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## TimoS

Ray B said:


> I don't know the relationship exactly, but I do know that Nakama Sensei
> was an old family friend



Sorry for taking a bit of time replying to this, but I caught a flu during the weekend, so I wasn't able to go and train and ask questions on sunday. Anyway, I checked about the relationship between Zenryo Shimabukuro and Nakama and my source says that if he remembers correctly, their wives were sisters


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## Skippy

Hello,


I train, study & teach Uechi Ryu as well as other arts such as Arhat Temple Boxing & Shaolin Kempo. You guys seem friendly enough & down to earth in here compared to all the people that post in the Kempo/Kenpo threads. Not only do they lack any sense of humor but they are at one anothers throats on those threads 247! It's like an endless cat fight on those threads. I sware Kempo/Kenpo must be cursed with all the nonsense going on there.:dalek:


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## repz

Skippy said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> I train, study & teach Uechi Ryu as well as other arts such as Arhat Temple Boxing & Shaolin Kempo. You guys seem friendly enough & down to earth in here compared to all the people that post in the Kempo/Kenpo threads. Not only do they lack any sense of humor but they are at one anothers throats on those threads 247! It's like an endless cat fight on those threads. I sware Kempo/Kenpo must be cursed with all the nonsense going on there.:dalek:


 
Lol, tell me about it. You make one comment and its either misinterperated, or somehow gives people the right to somehow declare assumptions by adding words you never said. I havent experienced the kenpo section though.

I like to stick to my karate brothers, even though this part of the forum looks quiet. But I am sure a heated argument can pop up anywhere.


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## TimoS

repz said:


> But I am sure a heated argument can pop up anywhere.


Things tend not to get too heated around here, but I know what you mean. Just take a look at at least one thread in this subforum (no, I'm not going to say which one)


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## Guliufa

This is an excellent article. I read it many years ago and it made me change the way I do and teach Sanchin Kata. I am a Goju Ryu practitioner and have trained under most lineages, except Meibukan. 

I also read an interview of Toguchi Sensei which mentioned that Miyagi Sensei's Daughter overheard her Father tell her Mother that he should have practiced the kata of Shuri(paraphrasing)... eluding to Naha Breathing being too hard and damaging(?). 



Live True said:


> I can't speak to this personally, being very new to Uechi, but I did remember an article that may be of interest form George Mattson's Uechi-ryu.com site titled: *Sanchin Breathing: Are you hurting yourself?*
> http://uechi-ryu.com/breathng.htm
> 
> Bill Glasheen (the author) had the following qualifications at the time of the article: A doctorate in biomedical engineering with an emphasis in systems physiology. A dissertation on rhythms in cardiopulmonary systems, which includes quantification of how respiration affects arterial and venous pressure, heart rate, and peripheral vascular flow. Five years of research in the field of cardiology. Renshi rokudan in Uechi Ryu (one "style" of sanchin). Nidan in Shorei Kai Goju Ryu (another "style of sanchin).
> 
> Hope this is helpful!


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## Eubrontes

Did any of you see the article "Memories of Karate" by Chotoku Kyan, translated by Kiko Assai-Ferreira from teh Ryukyu Shinpo Newapaper, May 1942 - which was in Classical Fighting Arts, volume 15? (the one with Zenpo Shimabukuro on the cover?
In it, Kyan wrote that when he was 15, his father started teaching him karate, and it was very tough training... when he was 16, his dad introduced him to Master Mastumura -who taught him Gojushiho(he wrote "I still do this kata to this day, I never forgot it.")  He said he studied with him for two years, then Kyan went to Japan, when he came back, Master Mastumura was dead.  After that he writes, "..when i was 26 years old.  Upon my return to Okinawa I received instruction in karate from Kosaku Matsumora Sensei in Tomari, Peichin Sensei, etc.  Instructors in those days, because of the respect they had for each other, only taught their students their own particular specialty."  Great, great article (


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## TimoS

I think I read it, can't remember for certain. Anyway, Matsumura taught Kyan also Seisan, which remains the foundation kata in at least Seibukan.


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## Ray B

As a side note, I have been thinking about this for some time now. Does anyone else see a similarity to the combination of Shorin's Seisan and Naihanchi vs. Goju's Sanchin and Seiuchin?


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## Brandon Fisher

Ray B said:


> As a side note, I have been thinking about this for some time now. Does anyone else see a similarity to the combination of Shorin's Seisan and Naihanchi vs. Goju's Sanchin and Seiuchin?


Unless you mean them being core kata for I don't see the connection.


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## TimoS

Brandon Fisher said:


> Unless you mean them being core kata for I don't see the connection.


Just what I was thinking. Some Shorin styles use Naifanchi as the core, others use Seisan.


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## Ray B

I ment the combination of naihanchi and seisan vs. sanchin and seiuchin.

If you look at some of the elements of the two katas from each ryu, they have a alot of similarities. Naihanchi and Seiuchin's side movement. The hand postures are similar too. The hooking hand of seiuchin and the hooking hand of seisan. The grounding of sanchin and naihanchi. Sanchin's forward movement vs. seisan. (I should note Matsumura seisan and not Naha).

I may be reading too much into it but IMO, they share a lot in common and they are core kata for each ryuha. Almost like they are the same lessons pakaged in two different katas.

This is just my uneducated opinion...


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## dancingalone

<shrugs> At least in my line, the purposes of the kata are fairly different.  For example, Naihanchi is regarded as a fine kata for learning how to create 'short' power while Seiunchin is primarily a body training form with some nice applications as a bonus.


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