# Making up your own kata



## ppko (Oct 24, 2004)

There is a school in our area that makes up there own kata (rather the teacher has there students make them up) and this is how they are going to decide the kata that will go into there curriculum.  To me this is an outrage just wanting your thoughts.


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## MJS (Oct 24, 2004)

I can see having the student make up their own kata for their Black Belt test, but for the entire format of the school, I'd have to say that is a bad idea.

What art does this school teach?  Did it already have kata in it?  If so, what is wrong with the kata?

One word...well, actually more come to mind, but none that are suited for this forum....MCDOJO!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mike


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 24, 2004)

Our school also requires a black belt candidate to compose and choreograph his or her original kata for presentation during her or his test.  Otherwise, what we all learn is kenpo.  The very smallest kids in our school are taught original 'forms'. I quote for the reason that the little ones learn basics through a pattern our master instructor has composed for them that he tells them are their forms.  Once they reach an age (around 7) where they have been attending classes for a while and can grasp the concept of the kenpo forms and sets, they begin learning those.

I don't know that I'd call the school to which you refer a McDojo.  I just don't think I'd be happy going to a place like that where there's no continuity to the curriculum.


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## chinto01 (Oct 24, 2004)

I believe that creating your own form is wrong also. There is plenty to learn with the traditional forms in one's own system. Creating forms is why we have all of the gymnastics routines that you see at tournaments today.


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## OC Kid (Oct 24, 2004)

I dunno I maybe wrong here. But were the trad katas made by the masters. They were either taken from actual fights the masters had or their favorite techniques.
If thats the case then why wouldnt it be ok for a student to take their favorite techniques make a kata out of them and practice them? Just curious. 

FWIW I do teach trad katas in my school. I know 17 of them. The student must learn one or more for each rank advancement


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## ppko (Oct 24, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I can see having the student make up their own kata for their Black Belt test, but for the entire format of the school, I'd have to say that is a bad idea.
> 
> What art does this school teach? Did it already have kata in it? If so, what is wrong with the kata?
> 
> ...


I was told that the school is in Northern Kentucky and it teaches Tae Kwon Do


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## MJS (Oct 24, 2004)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> I dunno I maybe wrong here. But were the trad katas made by the masters. They were either taken from actual fights the masters had or their favorite techniques.
> If thats the case then why wouldnt it be ok for a student to take their favorite techniques make a kata out of them and practice them? Just curious.



It is ok...like it was said, as a requirement for BB, but to have the students make up things, and then teach that as the required material of the school, IMO is not right.  PPKO stated that this is a TKD school.  Again, I ask, what was/is the problem with the kata that is part of the TKD org. that they are part of?

Mike


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## terryl965 (Oct 24, 2004)

Well call me nuts but tradition is the only way and if the school is TKD then they should be doing tae Guek, Palgae or Chongi. No matter what affliation that are the forms that are tought and they are called Pommse not Kata's kata's are Japaness forms Poomse is Korean for forms and the terminology for America is forms.. GOD BLESS AMERICA:asian:


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## Patrick Skerry (Oct 24, 2004)

Even though I voted NO and believe you should perfect the kata of your chosen style; yet I have gone ahead and developed my own 'personal' kata based on my favorite techniques and those that have worked both in contest and in a self-defense situation.

This is strictly a 'personal' kata, which I keep to myself and practice on my own; I let no one see me practice my personal kata anymore than I would want someone to read my diary.

But I devised my own 'personal' kata only after I had been well versed in several traditional karate & Judo kata's.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 24, 2004)

No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts. 

But seriously, who cares?  As long as they aren't saying they are doing something that they are not what is the problem?


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## MJS (Oct 24, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.



I dont recall seeing where anyone said that being creative was a bad thing.



> But seriously, who cares?  As long as they aren't saying they are doing something that they are not what is the problem?



Well, to each his own I guess.  I know that I would want to learn the kata, forms, etc. that are part of that system, not something that was created by a group of students just to add to the material.

Again, I wonder why the inst. at that school is not happy with the forms from his original system?

Mike


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## Marginal (Oct 24, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.



Yeah, but you happen to think that all kata is useless.


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 24, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you happen to think that all kata is useless.


Andrew's not the only one I've come across who thinks kata are useless.  That's all up to what you're doing MA for.  Guy in my school hates kata because he only wants to spar.  He grudgingly does techs because they're valuable fighting tools and he knows it.  Couple of the other men feel that way, too.  Guess it's a guy thing.  I've yet to meet a woman who doesn't enjoy doing kata.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I dont recall seeing where anyone said that being creative was a bad thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


God forbid a student should string a couple of moves toguether without consulting a thousand years of tradition. Souldn't logic dictate a good or bad form? I don't think its about adding to the curriculum; its about excercising the curriculum in a maner that focuses on an area a student feels he can use some work. :asian: 
Sean


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## MichiganTKD (Oct 24, 2004)

kenpo tiger said:
			
		

> Andrew's not the only one I've come across who thinks kata are useless. That's all up to what you're doing MA for. Guy in my school hates kata because he only wants to spar. He grudgingly does techs because they're valuable fighting tools and he knows it. Couple of the other men feel that way, too. Guess it's a guy thing. I've yet to meet a woman who doesn't enjoy doing kata.


Not me. I love doing form. There is ALWAYS something new to learn from it, and you can spend a lifetime perfecting it. Without form, it would just be fighting. Guys need form because it teaches us how to be graceful and flow with our techniques.

As far as making up our own, yes I have experimented with my own personal sets, wondering how to begin and what might come next. But I teach and practice official forms that were developed by more experienced Grandmasters than me.  Your average student and black belt has nowhere near the expertise necessary to consider developing his/her own form. You want creativity? Learn to apply the techniques you already know. Additionally, most forms are based on principles hundreds or thousands of years old. Your average Instructor, teaching for even several decades, is simply not at that level.
One of the things that separates true form from mere technique sets is nuance-the little things that must be understood before a form is effective. If I set out to create a form, it may have nice big movements, but it would be lacking in the nuances that make it what it is. Just like a master painting. It is the nuances, the little details that give it life and character. This is what also separates true from phony masters. True masters understand and can explain these nuances. Phony masters cannot.
I've practiced form with GM Hae Man Park. He could easily spend 3 hours on a little technique-how to do it properly, what angle, where to contact, what it does etc. You just stand amazed at how little you really know.

About the Instructor who has his students work on their own forms. I have a theory about that. I think he is not close to his Instructor, either broke away or got cut. He never really learned how to do form aside from basic practice. As a result, he has his students make up form to cover up his own lack of knowlege. Much like an Instructor who makes up technique to cover up the fact he doesn't know basics.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 24, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you happen to think that all kata is useless.


For my purposes classical karate-style kata are counter productive.  Not everyone has the same purpose as me though.

Nor does everyone have the same purpose as you.  Some do kata as a creative dance, why are they wrong for doing so?


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## Patrick Skerry (Oct 24, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> For my purposes classical karate-style kata are counter productive. Not everyone has the same purpose as me though.
> 
> Nor does everyone have the same purpose as you. Some do kata as a creative dance, why are they wrong for doing so?


Not just as creative dance, but also as dynamic meditation.  Yet by making up your own Kata, your making a statement that you have learned and are practicing techniques that you have proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation, not in a ring or tournament.

Those classical kata's that you learn are from actual proven fighting techniques.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 24, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation
> 
> 
> Those classical kata's that you learn are from actual proven fighting techniques.


Prove that they are proven.  Go on, I dare ya 

hmm...Maybe we could comission a few gangsta's to create some "modern" kata then...

Wait... aren't martial arts masters supposed to be peaceful?  What were they doing getting in all those life or death fights then?


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## RRouuselot (Oct 25, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> There is a school in our area that makes up there own kata (rather the teacher has there students make them up) and this is how they are going to decide the kata that will go into there curriculum.  To me this is an outrage just wanting your thoughts.




The phrase _"the blind leading the blind"_ comes to mind..........


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## MJS (Oct 25, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> God forbid a student should string a couple of moves toguether without consulting a thousand years of tradition. Souldn't logic dictate a good or bad form? I don't think its about adding to the curriculum; its about excercising the curriculum in a maner that focuses on an area a student feels he can use some work. :asian:
> Sean



LOL! Sorry Sean, but you're still missing the point.  Go back and read the first post from PPKO.  He stated that the instructor was having students make up kata to add to the system.  Again, I'll say that there is NOTHING wrong with being creative.  I did a kata and thesis paper for my first degree.  Its good to have people use their mind, but it appears to me that this guy is doing it for the sole purpose of adding things that are made up.  God forbid someone should have a different opinion!!!!  

Mike


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## pakua (Oct 25, 2004)

My son's class had to make up katas a while back, but I think it was just Sensei injecting a bit of a change into proceedings- a bit of fun. I doubt if they rewrote the book after the exercise!


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## Sin (Oct 25, 2004)

To play with ideas is an ok thing but to make up a whole new offical kata for the school well thats kinda not cool, unless the Sensei wants to adopt it into the art.  And that can't be an everyday thing the kata would have to be really good


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## kenpo tiger (Oct 25, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Not me. I love doing form. There is ALWAYS something new to learn from it, and you can spend a lifetime perfecting it. Without form, it would just be fighting. Guys need form because it teaches us how to be graceful and flow with our techniques.
> 
> As far as making up our own, yes I have experimented with my own personal sets, wondering how to begin and what might come next. But I teach and practice official forms that were developed by more experienced Grandmasters than me. Your average student and black belt has nowhere near the expertise necessary to consider developing his/her own form. You want creativity? Learn to apply the techniques you already know. Additionally, most forms are based on principles hundreds or thousands of years old. Your average Instructor, teaching for even several decades, is simply not at that level.
> One of the things that separates true form from mere technique sets is nuance-the little things that must be understood before a form is effective. If I set out to create a form, it may have nice big movements, but it would be lacking in the nuances that make it what it is. Just like a master painting. It is the nuances, the little details that give it life and character. This is what also separates true from phony masters. True masters understand and can explain these nuances. Phony masters cannot.
> ...


Hey Mich - where you been?

I think I generalized a bit when stating that it's a guy thing.  My instructor happens to enjoy doing kata - and he's a guy - and there are others in my school who do also.  However, for purposes of discussion here, I was merely pointing out that the attitude that kata are useless does exist and is fairly common.

Also goes to your instructor's attitude about it and how you do it.  I was told by an instructor that I'd never be any good at kata.  He [I think] felt he was trying to motivate me somehow into proving him wrong (he was prone to that type of teaching method at times), but all that accomplished was blocking my ability to learn from him.  This was in an art that was created by someone else - not a traditional one - based on a few others that the grandmaster had trained in.  Those forms do not appear in any other martial art, to my knowledge, but they are practiced by the students of that grandmaster.  Does that make them "wrong"?  Not really.  I will qualify that by saying that experimentation is strongly _discouraged_ in that system.

If your instructor encourages you to put techs together in a mini-kata, as someone else pointed out - this is an exercise, and a good one.  Makes you see how practical your techs really are  - in kenpo, at least.  I can't speak for the rest of you.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Much like an Instructor who makes up technique to cover up the fact he doesn't know basics.


Define basics. If you make up a technique that has a logical application, didn't you just pre-discover an idea before it was shown to you by Master So'n'so? Or did you just apply the basic info already provided?
Sean


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## Bammx2 (Oct 25, 2004)

slightly different question.....

 I have seen this posted quite a bit:
"Kata's are based on actual fighting(life or death) techniques"

Just like a Wado-ryu Inst. I knew in the UK.....
He said:" if you master your kata's, you will be invincible in a street fight"

Who here has ever actually used a kata in a streetfight?!
 I believe kata's are "individuals choice"...
Depending on how you train; i.e: The Wado-ryu Inst....
 If you rely too heavily on them, they create muscle memory and NOT in a good way.
 I had to know 12 for my Shotokan BB and 14 for my Shorinyu BB and I have never got any benefit in an actual confrontation(and I have had more than my share)
 I'm doggin kata's. I don't teach them....but I have a wallet full of buisiness cards of people who do, just in case people don't like what I teach.
OORAA!


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## MichiganTKD (Oct 25, 2004)

Making up techniques is exactly that-creating your own movements that have no logical basis other than the fact that you don't fully understand the basics accepted by your system. Case in point: My Instructor told me of a guy he met years ago who taught horseback stance punching up. When are you EVER going to do that? The guy did not understand true basics, and so made up his own technique to cover this up. His poor students had no idea.


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## ppko (Oct 26, 2004)

Bammx2 said:
			
		

> slightly different question.....
> 
> I have seen this posted quite a bit:
> "Kata's are based on actual fighting(life or death) techniques"
> ...


If you know how to correctly apply a kata than it is one of the most usefull training methods that you can practice.  Unfortunatly most people do not and if you do not understand the kata than you are better off doing away with them if you are training for self-defense, well atleast until you run across that person that shows you the light.


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## RRouuselot (Oct 26, 2004)

Here is another thing to consider.

I have met some people that don't know any martial art but can defend themselves/fight rather well. Their spirit is such that they just have good natural skills. Then their are guys I have seen that have trained in all sorts of arts for 20+ years that can't fight for squat basically because they have no spirit. I have seen guys that have trained a long time get handed their *** by guys that know nothing. 
SO in the end it doesn't matter if you are studying the flavor of the month ultimate fighting art or doing "classical" arts. In the end you will do as your spirit dictates in a real situation. Period.


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## Sin (Oct 26, 2004)

agreed


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## ppko (Oct 26, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here is another thing to consider.
> 
> I have met some people that don't know any martial art but can defend themselves/fight rather well. Their spirit is such that they just have good natural skills. Then their are guys I have seen that have trained in all sorts of arts for 20+ years that can't fight for squat basically because they have no spirit. I have seen guys that have trained a long time get handed their *** by guys that know nothing.
> SO in the end it doesn't matter if you are studying the flavor of the month ultimate fighting art or doing "classical" arts. In the end you will do as your spirit dictates in a real situation. Period.


\
A very good post


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## Shu2jack (Oct 26, 2004)

I don't see anything wrong with a black belt, or someone testing for a black belt rank, creating their own form.

I personally believe that a black belt has mastered the basics of his/her system. If this is the case, would it not make sense to create your own personal form based on your skill, preferences, ablility, style, etc. using what you have learned from your system to demostrate mastery of the basics?


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## ppko (Oct 26, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I don't see anything wrong with a black belt, or someone testing for a black belt rank, creating their own form.
> 
> I personally believe that a black belt has mastered the basics of his/her system. If this is the case, would it not make sense to create your own personal form based on your skill, preferences, ablility, style, etc. using what you have learned from your system to demostrate mastery of the basics?


I am not sure you are seeing what this discussion is about please go back and read the first post


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## sifu Adams (Oct 26, 2004)

After reading though I see alot of good point made.  I have a lot of katas and still have a lot more to learn in my system.  at 4th degree black belt I haven't stopped learning new and differnt katas from my instuctor. Making me say no you souldn't make up new katas. However, I have learnd a few things about other styles.  Many styles don't have a lot of forms in their systems.  this prevents them from keeping 1 or 2nd black belt in their systems. Many will make up forms to keep their black belts active. We also pull all our fighting tech from our katas.   I was taught that when you do a kata you should be shadow boxing, putting the guy in front of you and laying him out.  I spar everytime I do a Kata.  As for the ones who don't like kata.  I have found that they don't understand the kata's or the kata dose not support their theroy of fighting.  Ex. TKD loves to kick you head off and they are good at it.  However I have seen at tournament where a TKD Black belt done a kata with no kicking in it.  I later learnd if was for strengh of the legs and not entended for fighting. If thats the case I understand why they would wont to only spar.  going back to you question.  I agree with most in saying a lower rank should not be makeing up new katas.  Through history each master would add to the list of tech/kata to make there system better. so for a advance black belt or Master to inprove the system that would be ok


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## Shu2jack (Oct 26, 2004)

> I am not sure you are seeing what this discussion is about please go back and read the first post


I read the first post, but.....





> I believe that creating your own form is wrong also. There is plenty to learn with the traditional forms in one's own system. Creating forms is why we have all of the gymnastics routines that you see at tournaments today.





> ...If thats the case then why wouldnt it be ok for a student to take their favorite techniques make a kata out of them and practice them? Just curious.





> Even though I voted NO and believe you should perfect the kata of your chosen style; yet I have gone ahead and developed my own 'personal' kata based on my favorite techniques and those that have worked both in contest and in a self-defense situation.
> 
> This is strictly a 'personal' kata, which I keep to myself and practice on my own; I let no one see me practice my personal kata anymore than I would want someone to read my diary.
> 
> But I devised my own 'personal' kata only after I had been well versed in several traditional karate & Judo kata's





> No, Creativity and original thinking should definately not be allowed, there is no place for that in the martial arts.





> As far as making up our own, yes I have experimented with my own personal sets, wondering how to begin and what might come next. But I teach and practice official forms that were developed by more experienced Grandmasters than me. Your average student and black belt has nowhere near the expertise necessary to consider developing his/her own form. You want creativity? Learn to apply the techniques you already know. Additionally, most forms are based on principles hundreds or thousands of years old. Your average Instructor, teaching for even several decades, is simply not at that level.
> One of the things that separates true form from mere technique sets is nuance-the little things that must be understood before a form is effective. If I set out to create a form, it may have nice big movements, but it would be lacking in the nuances that make it what it is. Just like a master painting. It is the nuances, the little details that give it life and character. This is what also separates true from phony masters. True masters understand and can explain these nuances. Phony masters cannot.
> I've practiced form with GM Hae Man Park. He could easily spend 3 hours on a little technique-how to do it properly, what angle, where to contact, what it does etc. You just stand amazed at how little you really know.





> Not just as creative dance, but also as dynamic meditation. Yet by making up your own Kata, your making a statement that you have learned and are practicing techniques that you have proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation, not in a ring or tournament.


It seems, to me at least, that the conversation spilled a bit over into the realm if someone should ever create a form, much less a form for a system. I just offered my two cents. I apologize if it was not what you were looking for.


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## ppko (Oct 26, 2004)

Shu2jack said:
			
		

> I read the first post, but.....
> 
> 
> 
> It seems, to me at least, that the conversation spilled a bit over into the realm if someone should ever create a form, much less a form for a system. I just offered my two cents. I apologize if it was not what you were looking for.


Just didn't understand where you were coming from all is forgivin


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## Marginal (Oct 27, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> For my purposes classical karate-style kata are counter productive.  Not everyone has the same purpose as me though.
> 
> Nor does everyone have the same purpose as you.  Some do kata as a creative dance, why are they wrong for doing so?



That's like saying that Tae Bo's just as good as MT because some people take MA for the exercise.


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## Enson (Oct 27, 2004)

i don't see a problem with writing your own kata. martial arts should be self expression... like music. after awhile one wants to write their own song.

peace


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## SMP (Oct 27, 2004)

At our school it is required for BB.  But it sound silly to have students make them up for the corriculum


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## RRouuselot (Oct 27, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i don't see a problem with writing your own kata. martial arts should be self expression... like music. after awhile one wants to write their own song.
> 
> peace




Actually no it is nothing like making up a song. I have yet to see someone defend themselves with a song......well maybe Julie Andrews in the "The Sound of Music". 
Firstly, I have yet to see anything in the MA that has not been thought of by someone else. Which doesn't really mean it was good, just that someone has thought of it before.
Having students invent new kata is just plain stupid. They would be better spending their time fully understanding what kata they have been exposed to rather than try to pull one out of their backside. I truly think asking people to make up new kata is how we get all the 22 year old 25th dan Grandmasters.  

I have studied the style I train in for over 25 years and can still learn things from the very first kata I was taught. Martial Arts are not like McDonalds where if your Happy Meal doesn't come in 2 minutes or less you get a free drink. It takes nintai (perseverance) to study MAs


There is a principle in learning MAs (as wel as other things) called Shu Ha Ri.

Here are some links worth reading:

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ShuHaRi

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=254

http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_jujitsu/pt_shuhari.html

http://www.aikidojournal.com/article.php?articleID=222

http://judo1.net/ju01004.htm


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

Robert

Believe me I see your point, and i am in agreement.

However I have a question for you, I ran into my 1st sensei this weekend and saw him do a form I think he made up.  The form has nice flow to it, possibilty of applications-etc.  Now Sensei has been in the arts in over 30 years (BTW he is not in the habit of inventing kata).  Should I learn this form as a way of rememberence of him?  After all is this not hoe kata started?  I not trying to flame anything just wondering
Todd


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## MJS (Oct 28, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Robert
> 
> Believe me I see your point, and i am in agreement.
> 
> ...



I still think that the point of this thread is being missed.  There is nothing wrong with being creative, if thats something you want to do.  It may be a requirement for BB to make up a kata.  However, this person is having his students make up the kata, and that is whats being taught.  I'm still waiting to hear whats wrong with the traditional TKD kata?

Now, for your question.  I have a few questions for you.

1- Do you know for sure that your inst. made this kata up himself? 

2- Is it something he does for a tourny or something that hes teaching at his school?

If its something that you truely want to do so you'll have a way to remember him, then go ahead.  However, I'd keep it to yourself, as a "special gift" so to speak.

Mike


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## The Kai (Oct 28, 2004)

1.) I strongly believe so.  I see a lot a movements that are prefered by him (hand traps).  But it could be a form I havent yet seen.  Also when when of my guys asked he said the name of the form was "Combined Fist Form" - Highlighting the Yin/yang of the martial Arts.  Which is and was one of sensei's favorite topics.

2.) The form was done at a tourny, yet I saw (granted it was one quick viewing) alot of stuff from class


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## KyleShort (Oct 28, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Yet by making up your own Kata, your making a statement that you have learned and are practicing techniques that you have proven in a life and death street fight or actual hand to hand combat situation, not in a ring or tournament.
> 
> Those classical kata's that you learn are from actual proven fighting techniques.



I strongly resist this notion.  Many kata are a series of movements meant to teach concepts & principles.  From those movements you can derive techniques.  That is not to say that some kata do not contain proven techniques...they do...but that is not a requirement for a kata to be a kata and in fact I would say that the majority of kata are not based on explicit techniques.  

I also resist the notion that all kata only contain techniques that are battle proven by the creator of the kata...did Ed Parker prove every single technique that he created in a life or death battle?  In fact, if the original kata contained only proven techniques, then creating a new kata that uses sets of those techniques in different orders would still be based on proven techniques.

Once last thought...what was proven for one may not apply for another.  Someone may have proven the efficacy of a pinky strike in combat, but that does not mean that another would be able to effectively apply it themselves.  That one person took as series of techniques that they proved in battle and wrapped them in a kata, does not make that kata battle effective for everyone.

Also, I am only refering to the patternized karate style solo kata.  Japanese arts such as Jujutsu also have two person exchanges that are very different.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 1, 2004)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> ............1)Once last thought...what was proven for one may not apply for another.  Someone may have proven the efficacy of a pinky strike in combat, but that does not mean that another would be able to effectively apply it themselves.  That one person took as series of techniques that they proved in battle and wrapped them in a kata, does not make that kata battle effective for everyone.
> 
> 2)Also, I am only refering to the patternized karate style solo kata.  Japanese arts such as Jujutsu also have two person exchanges that are very different.



1) Real techniques work on anyone/ or a moajority of the population regardless of size......if not then it is not a useful technique is it. I mean if it only works on dwarfs and blind old ladies then it won't be much good. 
Let's face it, weak small people don't normally attack bigger stronger people, AND if they did you wouldn't really need any MA training to defeat them since they are weaker and smaller.........

2) No offense but I really wish peole would research karate kata before they attempt to discuss them. Actually the Karate kata can be practiced just as the jujutsu/judo/aikido exchanges.........


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## RRouuselot (Nov 1, 2004)

For most of us (99.99%) making up your own kata is like saying since I can drive, put gas in and change a tire on Ferrari then I can design one from the ground up.

There are enough kata in karate now that it would take you several life times to understand them all thoroughlybetter to understand a few and be able to use something from them than to add to your work load with something that will most likely be mediocre at best. 


(if that fails just dial 1-800-ASK-KATA....they have all the answers) :ultracool

_
"What I do today is important because I am paying a day of my life for
it.  What I accomplish must be worthwhile because the price is high."
-Anonymous_


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## ppko (Nov 2, 2004)

http://www.matsumuraorthodox.com/book.htm
Is there anything wrong with this Rob, I mean Hohan was the main authority on Kyusho (at least to my understanding), and I can't see you complaining much if Mr. Oyata made up his own kata both indivduals are qualified to do so.  Not saying that I agree just wanted to see what your thoughts were with this.


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## jmann06405 (Nov 2, 2004)

Ultimately, this turns out to be a bad idea.

While I understand that creativity and the ability to improvise are large parts of the martial arts, the student needs a base to draw from before they can do that. 

Chances are, if you are working with a 'hybrid style', or something that someone has thrown together to make some money teaching with, that you will come across this phenonemon frequently.

In styles that are 'pure', the reason that kata or sets are not made up by the students is that within that set of motion are a lot of application(depending on style/instructor) that only time and training can reveal.

While all kata are made up, some were done by folks who had a bit more experience in the arts via fighting, training, teaching, etc. Generally, if you ask someone with little experience to create a kata, you will end up with a very surface level, superficial set that might contain elements detrimental to the student.

I have made up kata, so I have a bit of experience in this area. In comparision to the sets that are taught to me, and then expounded upon, the ones I created were done with a limited set of knowledge, and reflected that limitation. 

I come to learn, not to show what I know. I think you should stick to the program. If you are forced/required to make up your own kata...find a new program.


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## shesulsa (Nov 2, 2004)

I was required to create my own weapon form.  I certainly don't plan to teach it to anyone else, but it taught me the difficulty in creating a flowing form comprised of useful techniques.  I learned my limitations in creating it and I have a better idea now where to proceed from here.

 Just my .02


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## ppko (Nov 2, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I was required to create my own weapon form. I certainly don't plan to teach it to anyone else, but it taught me the difficulty in creating a flowing form comprised of useful techniques. I learned my limitations in creating it and I have a better idea now where to proceed from here.
> 
> Just my .02


that was worth at least a $1


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## RRouuselot (Nov 2, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> http://www.matsumuraorthodox.com/book.htm
> Is there anything wrong with this Rob, I mean Hohan was the main authority on Kyusho (at least to my understanding), and I can't see you complaining much if Mr. Oyata made up his own kata both indivduals are qualified to do so.  Not saying that I agree just wanted to see what your thoughts were with this.



Hohan was main authority on kyusho?? 
No, that's incorrect. Maybe that's what "Georgies" propaganda machine has cooked up to help that one and single solitary meeting with Hohan that "Georgie" claims to have had sound better. 


*"one of Okinawa's greatest living karate masters"*
Please......Kise Fuse has got to be one the biggest jokes in Okinawa these days. I think his nickname is Mr. "Dan Salesman". He probably has "one of the greatest egos in Okinawa" I will give him that. 

From the same website:
*In 1990, Grandmaster Kise was recognized by the Okinawan Prefectural Government and by a panel of scholars from Ryukyu University as the successor to Master Soken and as the head of Shorinryu Matsumura Orthodox karate.
*


This actually caused a LOT of commotion in Okinawa among many of the people that know Kise. Do not believe all the hype about him being recognized by the Okinawan Prefectural Government and by a panel of scholars from Ryukyu University..it was purely political and through connections that he got them to recognize him. 

You guys that have never been to Okinawa need to realize that not all Okinawans you see in those Karate mags are great or even good......some of them suck. I have seen several Okinawan "Masters" that are in those "rags" and have a whole slew of "worshiping" students and that play quite well to audiences outside Okinawa but in actual fact suck the big one. Three of those Okinawan "Masters" have been mentioned on this board often.  
Sorry to bust some people's hero worship bubble but it's a fact.




As far as Mr. Oyata making up kata. He hasn't and I doubt he ever will.


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## DeLamar.J (Nov 2, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> There is a school in our area that makes up there own kata (rather the teacher has there students make them up) and this is how they are going to decide the kata that will go into there curriculum.  To me this is an outrage just wanting your thoughts.


I think that would be great to bring out a students creativity. But as far as tests go, that kind of stuff should be left out.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 2, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I think that would be great to bring out a students creativity. But as far as tests go, that kind of stuff should be left out.



I understand about students being "creative" but why should they be creative when they haven't mastered the basics of what they have been taught to any degree. Wouldn't demonstrating mastery of what they have been taught be far more useful of time and effort then demonstrating something they just made up???
I am all for free expression and creativeness but where it really counts.
If you want students to be creative then why not attack them (in a sort of controlled fashion) and see how creative they are in coming up with an instant response/defense using what they have been taught. 

For me having students make up some *flying ninja squirrel* kata is not creative, it just reinforces their own bad habits.


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## ppko (Nov 2, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Hohan was main authority on kyusho??
> No, that's incorrect. Maybe that's what "Georgies" propaganda machine has cooked up to help that one and single solitary meeting with Hohan that "Georgie" claims to have had sound better.
> 
> 
> ...


I did not here that from George but just from internet and different boards that I have been on.  But I can't vouch for Mr. Kise as I do not know him.  Nor can I vouch for Mr. Oyata, but from what I understand Oyata, and Soken areand were very much qualified to do so.  Like I said before I do not condone it I am just trying to see what your thoughts would be with this.  I am not trying to start a flame war just trying to get some more oppinions


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## RRouuselot (Nov 2, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> *I did not here that from George but just from internet and different boards that I have been on.*  But I can't vouch for Mr. Kise as I do not know him.  Nor can I vouch for Mr. Oyata, but from what I understand Oyata, and Soken areand were very much qualified to do so.  Like I said before I do not condone it I am just trying to see what your thoughts would be with this.  I am not trying to start a flame war just trying to get some more oppinions




I am highly skeptical of peoples websites, Internet Boards, etc. This is why I mentioned some of the famous masters mentioned on this board as being not as good as the propaganda that is put out by them or their students.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 2, 2004)

My own personal opinion is that when students are asked to make up their own kata this just opens the door for them to make up their own style in the future. 
This is just what we need, more bozos running around starting McDojo based on their NEW and IMPROVED _*Hamster Style*_ based on the 5 elements of the Flying Ninja Squirrel, emphasizing color by numbers kyusho, the death touch based on the color of their attackers underwear and the time and date they were last changed.


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## hammer (Nov 3, 2004)

This may be a little of the subject,
G- day, i am a kenpo student in sydney Australia, having a small club, i made up 4 weapons forms, tried and tested them, and now apart of the sysllbus that i am teaching, my reasons for doing so is once students were expose to tournaments it become a need additionly it has been my understanding that kenpo students dont learn weapons until brown belt, I am curious at what age \ rank should a student start learning weapons? Cheers


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## Chronuss (Nov 3, 2004)

we're require to "make-up" our own forms starting at purple belt, requiring five techniques of the forty-two that a student has learned up to that point.  this allows the student to have some creativity and also introduce them to the first stages of formulation in ways of maneuvering, body mechanics, and what exactly works for them.  we're required to have a theme for the form, whether or not all the techniques are against a right punch, left punch, pushes, grabs, holds, locks, weapons, are all the attacks right sided, left sided, from the front, from the side, from flank, or from the rear.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 3, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> This may be a little of the subject,
> G- day, i am a kenpo student in sydney Australia, having a small club,* i made up 4 weapons forms, tried and tested them, *and now apart of the sysllbus that i am teaching, my reasons for doing so is once students were expose to tournaments it become a need additionly it has been my understanding that kenpo students dont learn weapons until brown belt, I am curious at what age \ rank should a student start learning weapons? Cheers




How were they "tried and tested" ? Do you use all the techniques in the kata in actual fights? If so were thet fights against other weapons or against unarmed people?


As far as testing ones technique Back in the day ..when my teacher was much younger it was not uncommon in Okinawa for people to go to other dojo and ask for a match either empty hand or with weapons.mind you this was not really considered rude or bad since they asked for a match instead of throwing down a challenge..often these matches ended up in serious injury sometimes requiring hospitalization.


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## hammer (Nov 3, 2004)

Thank you for your reply, the forms were tried & tested in both armed & unarmed, with conderation given to form & funtion, additionly having them ascessed by respected seniors in various arts that are known for that particular weapon ,having them performed at major tournaments with great results, im sure you get the picture ,cheers


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## RRouuselot (Nov 3, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> Thank you for your reply, the forms were tried & tested in both armed & unarmed, with conderation given to form & funtion, additionly having them ascessed by respected seniors in various arts that are known for that particular weapon ,having them performed at major tournaments with great results, im sure you get the picture ,cheers




Sorry I guess I am a little confused or unclear about your answer. The forms were tested or the techniques from the forms were tested? You say: _having them performed at major tournaments with great results.._
To me this is not field testing them, but merely showing them to a group of people.
Just a couple of more questions..

1)Which weapons did you test?
2)Were they tested in real fightsby this I mean not just working out but was it a real fight like if I dont beat this guy I might die kind of fight or just sparring? If it was in real fights what was the result of the other person.for example were they sent to the hospital or did they just die on the spot?
3)Who were the respected seniors?
4)What arts do these seniors teach? 
5)How were they assessed? Did you fight and beat these "respected seniors"?

I hope I dont sound rude by being critical of your claims but there have been more than a few individuals on this board and others that merely blow smoke up people backsides with bogus claims of being able to perform nothing less than miracles in the MA.


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## hammer (Nov 3, 2004)

Thanx for your well thought out reply , to anwser your reply in detail will take more time than i am prepared to give to the subject, if you read my post it was clear enough with out giving a 10 page report, i feel that you have choosen to isolate a pharse or to in the attempt to make an *** of me, those who criticize are usually covering up for their incompetence, cheers


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## RRouuselot (Nov 3, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> Thanx for your well thought out reply , 1) to anwser your reply in detail will take more time than i am prepared to give to the subject, 2) if you read my post it was clear enough with out giving a 10 page report, 3) i feel that you have choosen to isolate a pharse or to in the attempt to make an *** of me, 4) those who criticize are usually covering up for their incompetence, cheers




1)Right.
2)It was?!?!? Im sorry my English must be getting poor after living in Asia for a while, I didnt see where you gave any information about who these seniors are, nor did I see any info on how you actually battle tested these kata other than a performing them at a tournament. It wouldnt take 10 pages to answer the questions I askednot even a ½ page. But whatever, your unwillingness to answer speaks volumes to people who are familiar with these types of claims on Martialtalk and other boards. 
3)I have chosen to ask you to clarify in more detail certain elements that you brought up on this board..nothing more. Again, your non-answer speaks volumes.
4)Not a very good statement coming from someone who wont go into specifics about things they claim to have done.


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## hammer (Nov 3, 2004)

Robert, again i would suggest you read the previous post, question 1 weapons: 1 chucks, 2*short stick , 1 karma , question 2 : as practical as possible given the time we live in, sparring ,drilling, applictions, uses .question 3 : respected seniors teachers of other arts as well as my own ,hapkido, kenpo, kung fu, doc paris . question 4:they were ascessed on logic , application, skilling, knowledge of the weapon, history & peformance ect, im sure you get the picture now!! sorry im not in the business of name dropping .cheers


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## MJS (Nov 3, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> Thanx for your well thought out reply , to anwser your reply in detail will take more time than i am prepared to give to the subject, if you read my post it was clear enough with out giving a 10 page report, i feel that you have choosen to isolate a pharse or to in the attempt to make an *** of me, those who criticize are usually covering up for their incompetence, cheers



I have to agree with Robert on this one.  He was asking specific questions about the info. that you posted.  If you look back at all of his posts, he provides specific information about * everything * that he posts.  He asked specific questions about how things were 'tested' and it appears to me as well, that the question was avoided.  

As for providing details...I'm sure that a PM, email, or actual post on here would answer questions.  By not 'dropping names' as you say, it does raise some questions about how legit things that are said actually are.  You fail to state what weapons you were referring to until your last post, as well as the names of the respected 'masters', as well as if this was in a life and death battle or a competition.  Personally, a competition does not, IMO, prove much.  

Mike


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## RRouuselot (Nov 3, 2004)

hammer said:
			
		

> Robert, again A) i would suggest you read the previous post, question B) 1 weapons: 1 chucks, 2*short stick , 1 karma , question 2 : C) as practical as possible given the time we live in, sparring ,drilling, applictions, uses .question 3 : D. ) respected seniors teachers of other arts as well as my own ,hapkido, kenpo, kung fu, doc paris . question 4:E) they were ascessed on logic , application, skilling, knowledge of the weapon, history & peformance ect, im sure you get the picture now!! F)sorry im not in the business of name dropping .cheers




A)I did read your post again and it is not until THIS post that you attempt to answer my questions.
B)chucks? 2 short stick?, karma? I can only presume you mean nunchuku, tanbo, and kama.that is unless you are studying under one of the Ninja Turtles then it would be "numchucks" and make you a fellow "chucker"......
C)I get the picture now..so you never actually used tested them in real life situations, just kinda worked on some stuff in somebodys dojo. 
D)Still means nothing unless there are names to go along with those classified as respected.its a pretty ambiguous word. I might respect someone but another person may think he is a clown..I think you get the picture. And by the way its Doce Pares*..you should at least learn how to spell the arts and weapons you claim to know. 
E)Based on logic, application, skilling, knowledge of the weapon, history AND performance as well..WOW! Must make it really good stuff then. NOT based on actual use in real life though is it????
F)There was another guy on here a while back that refused to give the name of people he trained with or was ranked from. People asked him to cough up some proof that he had rank in an art he claimed it in for 6 bloody months.finally he showed it to some people and it was painfully obvious the he or someone had cut and pasted it together from other certificates and wrote his name in really bad Japanese, plus stamped it with a fake hanko.

Sorry sport but based on what little information you have posted and your basic lack of knowledge of martial arts terms/styles you claim to have trained in thus far you are not convincing me that what you have invented is something viable. I think if you were to go to any club like Doce Pares or Dan Inosanto they would smoke you with ease. 





*The name Doce Pares was adopted in
reference to the famous twelve bodyguards
of Emperor Charlemagne of France (AD 768-814).
these twelve people all top swordsmen were
known to have fought and killed hundreds of
enemies in battles. Doce Pares which means
"Twelve pairs" in spanish, was meant also to
honor the twelve people who originally planned
to form the orgnization, and when the
membership rose to twenty four at the time
of the inauguration, it indeed became more
significantly fitting


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## ppko (Nov 3, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> My own personal opinion is that when students are asked to make up their own kata this just opens the door for them to make up their own style in the future.


finally we can agree on something


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## ppko (Nov 3, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> D)Still means nothing unless there are names to go along with those classified as respected.its a pretty ambiguous word. I might respect someone but another person may think he is a clown..I think you get the picture.


I am going to have to agree with Rob on this (and if you know anything about the history between us you would know that we do not agree on much) how are we exposed to know that these are individuals that are respected in the Martial Arts without the names.  If we are not told the names than how can we validate what is said, I am not trying to start an argument with you just trying to find out more about what is being said.  If your katas are like you said they were then more power to you, but it is hard to come up with katas that are better or even as good as the ones that have been battlefield tested


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## jdam76 (Nov 3, 2004)

Nothing wrong with creativity.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 3, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> I am going to have to agree with Rob on this (and if you know anything about the history between us you would know that we do not agree on much) how are we exposed to know that these are individuals that are respected in the Martial Arts without the names.  If we are not told the names than how can we validate what is said, I am not trying to start an argument with you just trying to find out more about what is being said.  If your katas are like you said they were then more power to you, but it is hard to come up with katas that are better or even as good as the ones that have been battlefield tested




PPKO
There will always people on these boards that think/claim that have come up with something new or better which I am always doubtful of. Not because I dont think the MA could use some improving mind you, its just that there are only a limited number of ways you can whack someone. After several thousands years of developing and refining hand to hand combat and combat with ancient weapons I think mankind has pretty much covered all the bases and exhausted any avenues for making new techniques. 
For example: I thought I had come up with a "new" hand to hand technique, however, my friend showed me almost the exact same technique I thought I had discovered in an 18th Century German text on hand to hand combat. What I thought I had invented was already invented by someone 200 years earlier that had already found it and put it to pen and paper in a book. 
These Christopher Columbus* of the MA will always pop up on these boards claiming to have built a better mouse trap and with the near impossibility of actually demonstrating it on the internet they pretty much go unchecked and can feel free to claim anything, especially since they almost always refuse to give any facts, or ways to corroborate what they claim. 


*Ol Chris thought he discovered the NEW World but some natives beat him to it by about 30,000 years.


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## ppko (Nov 4, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> PPKO
> There will always people on these boards that think/claim that have come up with something new or better which I am always doubtful of. Not because I dont think the MA could use some improving mind you, its just that there are only a limited number of ways you can whack someone. After several thousands years of developing and refining hand to hand combat and combat with ancient weapons I think mankind has pretty much covered all the bases and exhausted any avenues for making new techniques.
> For example: I thought I had come up with a "new" hand to hand technique, however, my friend showed me almost the exact same technique I thought I had discovered in an 18th Century German text on hand to hand combat. What I thought I had invented was already invented by someone 200 years earlier that had already found it and put it to pen and paper in a book.
> These Christopher Columbus* of the MA will always pop up on these boards claiming to have built a better mouse trap and with the near impossibility of actually demonstrating it on the internet they pretty much go unchecked and can feel free to claim anything, especially since they almost always refuse to give any facts, or ways to corroborate what they claim.
> ...


Yeah I agree, I was once told that if there is a way that your body can move than there is probably a kata that shows how to attack it.  Don't know if that is true or not (I don't know every kata out there), but I wouldn't doubt it.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 4, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Yeah I agree, I was once told that if there is a way that your body can move than there is probably a kata that shows how to attack it.  Don't know if that is true or not (I don't know every kata out there), but I wouldn't doubt it.




We only train 12 empty hand kata and the techniques contained in those 12 covers a LOT of different situations........ there is actually more than enough for someone to defend themselves from most types of attacks.


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## ppko (Nov 4, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> We only train 12 empty hand kata and the techniques contained in those 12 covers a LOT of different situations........ there is actually more than enough for someone to defend themselves from most types of attacks.


I can agree with that


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## ppko (Nov 29, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Just didn't understand where you were coming from all is forgivin


Someone gave me a negative ding for this statement don't understand that but anyway oh well I guess that you just can't get along with everyone


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## Jibbler (Nov 29, 2004)

i think many people are missing one importent fact. all kata are made up all fighting is made up by people. where do you think the tradtinol katas come from? The creators of each martial art made them so whats wrong with making your own if it is a sound principle it is based on? the new kata my be even more useful then the traditonal kata.


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## MJS (Nov 29, 2004)

Jibbler said:
			
		

> i think many people are missing one importent fact. all kata are made up all fighting is made up by people. where do you think the tradtinol katas come from? The creators of each martial art made them so whats wrong with making your own if it is a sound principle it is based on? the new kata my be even more useful then the traditonal kata.



Well, a question that I have asked is: What is wrong with the katas that are already in the system???  Again, nothing wrong with doing it for a pre-req for BB, but the point of this thread was someone making up katas to add to their system.  Actually, the inst. was having his students make up the kata.

Mike


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## Jibbler (Nov 29, 2004)

i said nothing is wrong with the traditonol kata i was just saying that the orginol kata where also made up, i don't think students should be forced to make their own kata defently not when they start.


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## RRouuselot (Nov 30, 2004)

Jibbler said:
			
		

> i said nothing is wrong with the traditonol kata i was just saying that the orginol kata where also made up, i don't think students should be forced to make their own kata defently not when they start.


 Many of them were not "made up" but rather "made from" actual experiences....a big difference


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## Jibbler (Nov 30, 2004)

yes i agree that many come from exprence i was just commenting on how many people think that makeing your own kata is evil and wrong while it isn't


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## MJS (Nov 30, 2004)

Jibbler said:
			
		

> yes i agree that many come from exprence i was just commenting on how many people think that makeing your own kata is evil and wrong while it isn't



I'm afraid that the point is still being missed here.  There are many arts out there that contain kata.  Its one thing to just perform the kata, but to truly understand it can take quite a long time.  

Again, the inst. of this school is having his students make up the katas.  Why does this inst. find it necessary to do this, when there are kata already in his art?  Whats wrong with those kata?  

This inst. sounds to me like he's running your typical McDojo!  Teaching a half-baked art, telling and making students believe that he's teaching them something great, and taking their money!  I guess you get what you pay for.  

Mike


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