# Martial Arts Judgements and learning ideas



## antoine9891 (Feb 12, 2021)

Training and Mastery times Judgements unrealistic.


Hello everyone.
I have noticed many online news articles stating harsh judgements on the Authenticity of different martial arts base on length of time it takes to earn a black belt. 
Calling schools factories and other degrading names on public forums.

These time frames they mention are 2 to 4 years. 
It's silly and should stop.

I believe that

Each art has its own time that an true instructor expects it's student to be proficient enough to learn the main components of the art taught. 
Which is what black belt represents. 
That you able to proficiently perform all the techniques of this art up to this level.

This may only take 2 years depending on the student and the master.

In terms of combat efficiency. I doubt that family or any group engaged in combat has 20 years to teach a warrior before they could send him or her into a battle.. so stop.

Each is different. The to think ANY art takes over 20 years before a person can defend themselves using most of the art is not logical.

Some are angry about a 10 year old black belt. 
That's also rediculous.
If he knows and can perform the curriculum at high level then his black belt authentic. 
Which is more likely than an adult since a child can be consistent at practice and easier to teach.
Having all of the material down early would realistically create a warrior that would be able to enter the battlefield at 18 or 20.

Or do they believe that martial artist stop being martial artist after they receive a black belt. As if the belt is the currency of practice.

Let's be assured that no martial artist believe that they are done learning cause they earned a any color belt or sash.

But to also not judge them.

What do you think?


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## MetalBoar (Feb 12, 2021)

antoine9891 said:


> Training and Mastery times Judgements unrealistic.
> 
> 
> Hello everyone.
> ...


I don't get too judgmental about this sort of thing anymore. I agree that unless you train with someone you have no idea how much time and work they've put in nor how much natural talent they might have. When I was doing Aikido I remember one of my fellow students went to Japan and spent a good chunk of a summer as an Uchi Deshi student. When he came back he had improved a lot more in a couple of months than he had over the preceding 2+ years, so just looking at total time doesn't tell you much. 

I also think that if you're comparing apples to oranges it doesn't tell you much. A black belt in TKD doesn't have to mean the same thing nor encompass the same amount of material as a black belt in BJJ. On the other hand, if you are comparing apples to apples, say one Kukkiwon certified school is producing black belts in half the time of any other Kukkiwon school, it might be reasonable to wonder what they're doing differently. _Maybe_ they've developed some fantastic new pedagogical techniques and are just that good, but probably they're not really producing very high quality black belts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2021)

antoine9891 said:


> Which is what black belt represents.


In truth, this isn't universal. The BB rank represents only what it represents within a given group. For my curriculum, it requires a lot more than that to get that bit of black cloth. In some styles/organizations, it takes less than that. A BB I award isn't better than the one they award. True, the person wearing mine is probably more skilled, but that's only because my BB means something different from theirs. If we removed the colors of the ranks from discussion, there wouldn't really be the same debate. My student at 1 year might or might not be as skilled as theirs. What color they use to hold their uniform closed at that pont isn't really relevant to the debate.


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## Buka (Feb 12, 2021)

antoine9891 said:


> Training and Mastery times Judgements unrealistic.
> 
> 
> Hello everyone.
> ...



Antoine!

I see you joined the forum in 2012 and are just now writing your first post. Just wanted to welcome you to Martial Talk, brother.


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## jobo (Feb 14, 2021)

Buka said:


> Antoine!
> 
> I see you joined the forum in 2012 and are just now writing your first post. Just wanted to welcome you to Martial Talk, brother.


there a lot of that at the moment?


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## jobo (Feb 14, 2021)

antoine9891 said:


> Training and Mastery times Judgements unrealistic.
> 
> 
> Hello everyone.
> ...


i think you make some good points,

12 months of reasonably dedicated instruction and training /practice should make you proficient at most things,

if not your lacking the basic talent or there is something very wrong with the instruction, now im not saying you can achieve mastery in that time frame, just you should be more capable, at soccer or darts or playing an instrument  or ma or chess or  what have you .

going on a soccer skill training course that doesnt give you competance till your much to old to play soccer  would be viewed  as a waste of time and money, i think you can equally apply that to martial skills, if we could ever reach agreement on what actualy represents competence


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2021)

jobo said:


> there a lot of that at the moment?



Lockdowns?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 16, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Lockdowns?


I believe he means a lot of people popping up with old accounts that they never used. Noticed a bit of that myself over the past month r so.


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I believe he means a lot of people popping up with old accounts that they never used. Noticed a bit of that myself over the past month r so.




I knew what he meant, I'm suggesting that because of lockdown people are online more and rediscovering MT.


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## jobo (Feb 16, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I knew what he meant, I'm suggesting that because of lockdown people are online more and rediscovering MT.


im more impressed that after 12 years they remember  their log in


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

antoine9891 said:


> Training and Mastery times Judgements unrealistic.
> 
> 
> Hello everyone.
> ...


I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you because it is true that it should be purely measured by skill level, but I don't because it isn't like that. I once saw a 20-year-old red belt stand next to a 7-year-old black belt. The red belt actually _trained_ while the 7-year-old _parents_ paid the dojo money to earn the black belt.


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## jobo (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> I agree and disagree with you. I agree with you because it is true that it should be purely measured by skill level, but I don't because it isn't like that. I once saw a 20-year-old red belt stand next to a 7-year-old black belt. The red belt actually _trained_ while the 7-year-old _parents_ paid the dojo money to earn the black belt.


kids cant really be considered against adults, different criteria  apply and they need a progress reward just as adults do, so a 7 year old with a black belt can only be considered against other 7 year olds

that said some 10/ 12 are exremly good and will be exceptional adults if they stick with, it, they are only lacking size/ strengh and refinment of their nervious system  that comes with their later teenage years


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> kids cant really be considered against adults, different criteria  apply and they need a progress reward just as adults do, so a 7 year old with a black belt can only be considered against other 7 year olds
> 
> that said some 10/ 12 are exremly good and will be exceptional adults if they stick with, it, they are only lacking size/ strengh and refinment of their nervious system  that comes with their later teenage years


I also agree with you, but talents like that are too rare, and that is why I look down on 8 yr old black belts.


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## jobo (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> I also agree with you, but talents like that are too rare, and that is why I look down on 8 yr old black belts.


why would you look down on them? they are little kids, its a major achievement  considering the physical and mental  limitations they have to over come

im aware that some adult ma feel it in some way detracts from their achievements, i think this is very odd


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> why would you look down on them? they are little kids, its a major achievement  considering the physical and mental  limitations they have to over come. im aware that some adult ma feel it in some way detracts from their achievements, i think this is very odd


I also agree with that. I would suggest making a pre- system. In Taekwondo, kids below 12 would have to go through the "sajeon gup" system which would consist of a
Teal belt
Teal belt + 1 Stripe
Teal belt + 2 Stripes
Teal belt + 3 Stripes
Teal belt + 4 Stripes
Teal belt + 5 Stripes
and then they would skip past the white belt directly into yellow. Then we could inflate their pride but not too much. It's much different saying "I've got a yellow belt" Then "I've got a black belt" and for them, passing past the sajeon stage would be good.


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## jobo (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> I also agree with that. I would suggest making a pre- system. In Taekwondo, kids below 12 would have to go through the "sajeon gup" system which would consist of a
> Teal belt
> Teal belt + 1 Stripe
> Teal belt + 2 Stripes
> ...


your still in competition with them, they are small children,  if they complete the sylabus why shouldnt they have a black belt, it will revert to a lower belt when they take adult classes and if it doesnt, so what, there are lot of adult people with black belts who are usless, they will most certainly be better than them


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> your still in competition,  if they complete the sylabus why shouldnt they have a black belt, it will revert to a lower belt when they take adult classes and if it doesnt, so what, there are lot of adult people with black belts who are usless, they will most certainly be better than them


Yes, only the "once in a decade" prodigies.


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> your still in competition with them, they are small children,  if they complete the sylabus why shouldnt they have a black belt, it will revert to a lower belt when they take adult classes and if it doesnt, so what, there are lot of adult people with black belts who are usless, they will most certainly be better than them


If they really are prodigies, they can take a test like fighting above their age & rank to skip the sajeon gup stage.


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## jobo (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> If they really are prodigies, they can take a test like fighting above their age & rank to skip the sajeon gup stage.


why cant they have a black belt?


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> why can't they have a black belt?


I never said they can't if they pass the sajeon gup stage. But it will be so unlikely that only the _real_ prodigies would actually earn the black belt.


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## jobo (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> I never said they can't if they pass the sajeon gup stage. But it will be so unlikely that only the _real_ prodigies would actually earn the black belt.


well it isnt unlikely as lot of kids earn a blackbelt, why do you want to stop them having one inless they jump throup hoops that you set


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> well it isnt unkikely as lot of kids earn a blackbelt, why do you want to stop them having one


AAHHHHH!!!!
You don't get it do you. A lot of them haven't deserved the black belt as their parents just spent 500$ to get one for them. THAT'S WHY!!!!


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

They actually have to deserve it. It is what people call others who are great at buying "Pay 2 Win"


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

Sadly, a lot of Dojos are like that...


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> I also agree with you, but talents like that are too rare, and that is why I look down on 8 yr old black belts.



I would think it's because they're shorter than you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 17, 2021)

Buka said:


> I would think it's because they're shorter than you.


You're making a pretty bold assumption about his height, here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> I also agree with you, but talents like that are too rare, and that is why I look down on 8 yr old black belts.


Why look down on them? They earned that rank in most cases. If it were a different color, it wouldn't matter much to you, so what's sacred about the color black?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> AAHHHHH!!!!
> You don't get it do you. A lot of them haven't deserved the black belt as their parents just spent 500$ to get one for them. THAT'S WHY!!!!


"A lot of them" - how many? The classes I've watched at places that award youth BB ranks to kids had the kids doing things like drills and sparring of some sort. The kids with the BB ranks typically were better at those things than the other kids. Seems like the kids are involved in the process.


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## Razznik (Feb 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Why look down on them? They earned that rank in most cases. If it were a different color, it wouldn't matter much to you, so what's sacred about the color black?


It's not that I'm trying to prevent kids from getting the black, belt, it's just making it so the parents don't get to bribe the teachers into getting them high ranked belts to flex.


gpseymour said:


> "A lot of them" - how many? The classes I've watched at places that award youth BB ranks to kids had the kids doing things like drills and sparring of some sort. The kids with the BB ranks typically were better at those things than the other kids. Seems like the kids are involved in the process.


Yes, but that is only within their age... Of course a red belt 10 yr old is better at kicking than a yellow belt 10 yr old.


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