# Uechi-Ryu Karate - SanSeiRyu Bunkai Demonstration



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 6, 2014)

Here is a video that a friend of mine had on their site and I thought I would pass it along:


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## K-man (Dec 6, 2014)

Just to put the bunkai into context, here is the complete Uechi Ryu Ryu kata Sanseru.

It is a lot different from some other forms of Sanseru such as what you see in Goju, so people familiar with their kata might not see the significance of this Bunkai.






Edit ... Sorry it didn't appear earlier.


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## Danny T (Dec 6, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Here is a video that a friend of mine had on their site and I thought I would pass it along:


nice, even noted a bit of grappling hand fighting and grabbing, ankle picking, and off-balancing throws in there. Interesting indeed.


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## Hanzou (Dec 7, 2014)

I find their sparring very interesting;






Lots of open handed technique, allowing grabs and palm striking.

Is that due to Uechi Ryu's CMA heritage?


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## clfsean (Dec 7, 2014)

Uechi Ryu is awesome.

From my CMA eyes, it's Fujianese something (White Crane, Tiger, etc... something short hand) that moved to Okinawa pretty unchanged.


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## K-man (Dec 7, 2014)

Of all the CMA that was taken to Okinawa, Uechi Ryu would probably have maintained more of its heritage than those that blended the Kung Fu with the local grappling. Even so it has a lot in common wth Okinawan Goju.


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## Probs92 (Dec 9, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I find their sparring very interesting;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think it is definitely interesting. We used to practice free-style sparring at my Goju dojo, but we always used kicks and would not move in that close (which is not that common for Goju karateka). The fact of the matter was that many of us trained in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and if we got too close we knew the less advanced BJJ student would invariable taste the hardwood flooring haha.


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## hussaf (Dec 9, 2014)

My goju school did a few Uechi kata and some of their basic movement sets - even some of their body hardening drills


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 18, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Uechi Ryu is awesome.
> 
> From my CMA eyes, it's Fujianese something (White Crane, Tiger, etc... something short hand) that moved to Okinawa pretty unchanged.


Yes, you have good eyes. Kanbun Uechi studied in Fukian province.  it is very interesting from a historical perspective because his time there as a student and later as a teacher (he was the only non Chinese teaching at the time that we know of) was during the boxer rebellion.  you can see the emphasis on body hardening.  also the teaching he received and passed on was not flowery and very direct in contrast to the way many CMA systems have evolved.  When on a trip to China to find the roots of Uechi ryu, George mattson who brought the style to America was told by the Chinese practitioners there, that it was "like a time capsule". the original Chinese name for the style was Pangainoon which is a Hakka language term.

As to the similarity to Goju ryu, i would have to agree.  Morio Higaonna  (no relation) said that the sanchin kata that Kanryu Higaonna had learnt in China from RuRyuko was open handed with quick fast strikes with breaths to match and there were turns in the kata, later Miyagi Chojun closed the fists and took out the turns and also changed the breathing and the amount of dynamic tension.  this certainly sound like the version of sanchin that Uechi also studied. if you have good eyes to see, you can make a comparison on Seisan kata as well and i  would conclude that at one time in the distant past they were the same.

As for the video clips Shinyu Gushi was a great practitioner and of great historical value. he has past on and i am saddened that i will not be able to work with him again.  the bunkai shown is more of a standard for organizational testing  and demonstrations rather than a strict single interpretation of the kata.


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## qianfeng (Feb 5, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Uechi Ryu is awesome.
> 
> From my CMA eyes, it's Fujianese something (White Crane, Tiger, etc... something short hand) that moved to Okinawa pretty unchanged.





hoshin1600 said:


> Yes, you have good eyes. Kanbun Uechi studied in Fukian province.  it is very interesting from a historical perspective because his time there as a student and later as a teacher (he was the only non Chinese teaching at the time that we know of) was during the boxer rebellion.  you can see the emphasis on body hardening.  also the teaching he received and passed on was not flowery and very direct in contrast to the way many CMA systems have evolved.  When on a trip to China to find the roots of Uechi ryu, George mattson who brought the style to America was told by the Chinese practitioners there, that it was "like a time capsule". the original Chinese name for the style was Pangainoon which is a Hakka language term.
> 
> As to the similarity to Goju ryu, i would have to agree.  Morio Higaonna  (no relation) said that the sanchin kata that Kanryu Higaonna had learnt in China from RuRyuko was open handed with quick fast strikes with breaths to match and there were turns in the kata, later Miyagi Chojun closed the fists and took out the turns and also changed the breathing and the amount of dynamic tension.  this certainly sound like the version of sanchin that Uechi also studied. if you have good eyes to see, you can make a comparison on Seisan kata as well and i  would conclude that at one time in the distant past they were the same.
> 
> As for the video clips Shinyu Gushi was a great practitioner and of great historical value. he has past on and i am saddened that i will not be able to work with him again.  the bunkai shown is more of a standard for organizational testing  and demonstrations rather than a strict single interpretation of the kata.



I dont know why they people always say uechi ryu is based of something called pangainoon (half soft hard) as this style doesnt exist. The man Kanbun Uechi studied under was a master of a style called 虎尊拳 reverent tiger fist. This is fairly common knowledge in China i dont know why it's not known any where else.


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## TimoS (Feb 5, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> I dont know why they people always say uechi ryu is based of something called pangainoon (half soft hard) as this style doesnt exist. The man Kanbun Uechi studied under was a master of a style called 虎尊拳 reverent tiger fist. This is fairly common knowledge in China i dont know why it's not known any where else.


The way I remember things is that nobody  knows who Kanbun Uechi's teacher really was. I think there's been lots of speculation, but nothing definite.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 5, 2015)

Would you care to share your knowledge and explain  how you know the origins of uechi-ryu.  From what I was told by some one fluid in Chinese and a high ranked practioner in the style, pangainoon does not mean half hard half soft. It is a Hakka language term meaning "get in and out quick and hit hard".
However this was only the term that Kanbun Uechi used for what he taught.  It may not be the name of the style he studied and as someone on this sight posted a very good article on Chinese systems, many smaller local styles did not have names. Which may explain why both Uechi-ryu and Goju-ryu have had style name issues.  Kanbun Uechi taught in China to Chinese. He taught using the Chinese language.  We have to assume he would know what the name of his own style was if it had one. 
We do in fact know who his teacher was , the problem has been that he was not a famous teacher so a prior history is hard to find facts on.
did he study a tiger fist form, yes uechi-ryu practitioners would agree on that.  BUT there are also crane and dragon movements. If one looks at older crane styles uechi has  far more in common and looks more related to those systems then a tiger system.  But there are tiger movements.  This is what causes the historical confusion.  I would suggest that Kanbun had studied a mutiple system from his teacher,  this could also explain why he used the term Pangainoon rather than a common name like whooping crane or white crane.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 5, 2015)

If Kanbun Uechi did study and teach "reverent tiger fist"  then our forms would be the same.  Can you post some video footage of the Chinese version of the forms?  I ,along with many others would be quite interested in this.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 5, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Would you care to share your knowledge and explain  how you know the origins of uechi-ryu.  From what I was told by some one fluid in Chinese and a high ranked practioner in the style, pangainoon does not mean half hard half soft. It is a Hakka language term meaning "get in and out quick and hit hard".



I don't know either Chinese or Uechi Ryu, but I suspect that Chinese is like Korean, in that many many things do not translate well. For example, some TKD schools use the rank of chodanbo as a transitional rank between the geup and Dan ranks. The literal translation of chodanbo is "half a black belt", but the concept is one of 'black belt candidate'. There are many other similar examples. The same thing may be happening here, with different occidental people arriving at different translations.


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## qianfeng (Feb 6, 2015)

Pangai-Noon Pangai-noon - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
These sites translate it as 半硬軟 which means half hard half soft. I'm fluent in Chinese too just to let u know...
上地完文 Kanbun Uechi studied under  Shu Shiwa/周子和 (this is either Fujin dialect or okinawan because it doesn't match the characters should be Zhou Zi He). ZHou was a master of Tiger fist of Fu Jian which is reverent tiger fist.

  http:// baike.baidu.com/view/224107.htm Zhou Zi He, get rid of space between / and b

HUZUN QUAN  Information on Hu Zun Quan

Uechi-ry - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia   Kanshiwa (完子和）This Uechi Ryu form is said to be named after Uechi Kanbun's master and the last words do match. 完*子和* 周子和. Kanshu (完周) So does this where the first character of his named is shown. 完*周* 周子和。

 

http:// v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNDUxMzUwMjk2.html Get rid of the space between / and v
The video title says master Hu demonstrates Fu Zhou (where Zhou Zi He lived) Tiger Fist
 

These two vids are the same style but from areas different to where Zhou Zi he lived


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## qianfeng (Feb 6, 2015)

The video title says master Hu demonstrates Fu Zhou (where Zhou Zi He lived) Tiger Fist


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## qianfeng (Feb 6, 2015)

What the heck i can't post links from youku


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## qianfeng (Feb 6, 2015)

Apparently i cant post Chinese link


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 6, 2015)

this video is labeled as whooping crane but also as "tiger crane"  and in the video it says white crane..so i am not sure of the style but it is the same form that you posted.





however whether they be tiger or crane they are not the same form as the uechi form





they are similar, but being similar is not being the same.  ALL  styles that come out of that area and time look the same.  they all have the same basic components and feel.

i would not take my information from WIKI pedia..  but yes  Shu shi wa is not Chinese but rather Okinawan.



qianfeng said:


> Uechi-ry - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia Kanshiwa (完子和）This Uechi Ryu form is said to be named after Uechi Kanbun's master and the last words do match. 完*子和* 周子和. Kanshu (完周) So does this where the first character of his named is shown. 完*周* 周子和。



i am not really sure what you are trying to point out.  yes those forms where named using a combination of  both Kanbun and Shu shi wa's names.  it is common knowledge.  

Kanbun Uechi taught in China.  If his style was "reverent tiger fist"  he would have called it by that name but he didn't,  he called it Pangai noon.  if he had learned reverent tiger fist the system he taught and that we practice today would have the same ...the exact same... forms and the rest of the entire curriculum.  Kanbun only knew 3 forms  Sanchin, Seisan, and sanseiryu.  two of these forms are the same as other styles of Okinawan karate,  Goju-ryu and Ryuei-ryu.














Both Goju ryu and Ryuei-ru founders learnt in China from a man they call Ru Ru Ko.  again these styles have strong ties to a crane system just like Uechi ryu.

when looking at and trying to uncover martial art history it is not uncommon for one style to put "claims" on other styles.  an unknown or new style might claim to be related to a better known famous style and an older style may make claims that a newer style that has more popularity is a branch of their system.  Talk is cheep as they say.  the proof is in the forms and the style curriculum.  similar is not being the same.  Uechi may have been influenced by Tiger fist but his forms and curriculum are not the same ,therefore it would be an inaccurate statement to say they are the same style.  this history only happened 100 years ago. it is not that long ago.  Kanbun Uechi's students in Okinawa and from China have tried to preserve the system they were taught without deviation.  i could name maybe 100 Fuzhou styles that all look similar.  Untill we find a Chinese style with the exact forms that are practiced in Uechi ryu  all claims of relationship are nothing but conjecture.


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## TimoS (Feb 6, 2015)

Getting a bit off-topic, but I am a bit curious about why Kanbun Uechi learnt only three kata. Not say that there isn't probably plenty to learn even in those, but it just seems curious.


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## TimoS (Feb 6, 2015)

> Untill we find a Chinese style with the exact forms that are practiced in Uechi ryu  all claims of relationship are nothing but conjecture.


That might actually be quite hard, because the Chinese style might have "evolved", that is to say that it might look somewhat different now than it did during Kanbun Uechi's days. During the 100 or so years it
might have had several generations of instructors, each of whom might have changed what they learned slightly. Look at e.g. Chotoku Kyan's students' Shorin(ji) styles, such as Zenryo Shimaburo's Seibukan and Joen Nakazato's Kyudokan, or Tatsuo Shimabukuro's Isshin ryu. Outwardly they look different although all of them studied with Kyan around the same time. They just all had a slightly different idea about how what they learned should look.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 6, 2015)

The story goes that there were 4 forms in the system but that Kanbun only knew 3. The 4th is suparinpei.  Kanbun returned home for a short time and had left china.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 6, 2015)

The forms may have changed some but 100 years is not that long ago, my house is older..  It is very evident that  uechi, goju and ryuei Ryu share a similar back round.  I have yet to see a Chinese form that shares these common factors and blue print   This conversation is nothing  new. There have been many interactions between the Okinawa,Chinese and Americans trying to learn more about the history.  The last clip I posted was of sensei Tomoyose he is in his 90s.   I am sure he has heard all these claims over and over. If any of them had turned up with any new information I know for a fact the entire uechi community would know by now.


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## TimoS (Feb 6, 2015)

True. By the way, I recently saw an interesting video where someone was doing "uechi-like" forms and out of curiosity I would like to know more about their possible relation to Uechi ryu karate. I'll try to find it when I get back home. Any opinions and especially facts would be much appreciated


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## qianfeng (Feb 6, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> this video is labeled as whooping crane but also as "tiger crane"  and in the video it says white crane..so i am not sure of the style but it is the same form that you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What i was saying was i had the right characters for Shu shi wa  周子和 and  周子和 was a master of the reverent tiger style. If Uechi lenrt from Shu shi wa then he learnt his style unless Shu shu wa taught some random stuff he made up.


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## qianfeng (Feb 6, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> this video is labeled as whooping crane but also as "tiger crane"  and in the video it says white crane..so i am not sure of the style but it is the same form that you posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didnt say they were the same style, I meanr reverent tiger is what Uechi based his system on. Their forms will never look exactly the same, have you seen a karate and kung fu form that looks exactly the same? Probably not becuase both arts will change over time and unless you cant time travel you wont be able to see what the form was like when Uechi first learnt it.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 6, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> What i was saying was i had the right characters for Shu shi wa  周子和 and  周子和 was a master of the reverent tiger style. If Uechi lenrt from Shu shi wa then he learnt his style unless Shu shu wa taught some random stuff he made up.



From this statement you have answered your own question from your original post


qianfeng said:


> I dont know why they people always say uechi ryu is based of something called pangainoon (half soft hard) as this style doesnt exist. The man Kanbun Uechi studied under was a master of a style called 虎尊拳 reverent tiger fist. This is fairly common knowledge in China i dont know why it's not known any where else.



Uechi-ryu  is not BASED on pangainoon, that was what Kanbun Uechi called the art he was teaching.  
You may have noticed Shinyu  Gushi  in the clip that was posted did not call his style uechi-ryu  he called it pangainoon
it is common knowledge that s Shu Shi wa did Tiger fist.  The question is where did the crane and dragon movements come from.  Did Shu Shi Wa also teach other systems? Some historians say yes he did. Kanbun never mentioned any other source or teachers. He did know Mr. Gogenki who was a crane stylist.  
We do know that the system Kanbun taught has been past on intact.  
Kanbun knew three forms and only sanchin  is even vaguely similar to tiger fist. But sanchin is more famous in the crane systems. So we are back to the same questions that have been around for 100 years.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 6, 2015)

Kanbun claims to only have one teacher and the forms and over all curriculum  do not match tiger fist style.  There has been a lot of research done on this and it has been determined that in all probability any claims or knowledge of someone by that name is probably not the same Shu Shi Wa.
Would Reverent tiger fist like to be linked to a karate style that is known all over the world?  Yes....but we will never know the truth.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 6, 2015)

Just a quick by-the-way, there are fifteen or so species of cranes, several of which are indigenous to various parts of Asia.  The Whooping Crane is a particular species found only in North America, highly highly endangered now.  But I believe it has never been native to Asia.  I only point this out as there then would be no Chinese method known as Whooping Crane.  I do believe, however,that there is a branch of Fujian white crane that is known as Calling Crane.

I just noticed in some earlier posts, someone was making reference to a Whooping Crane style.  It does not exist.


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## qianfeng (Feb 7, 2015)

I'm guesi


Flying Crane said:


> Just a quick by-the-way, there are fifteen or so species of cranes, several of which are indigenous to various parts of Asia.  The Whooping Crane is a particular species found only in North America, highly highly endangered now.  But I believe it has never been native to Asia.  I only point this out as there then would be no Chinese method known as Whooping Crane.  I do believe, however,that there is a branch of Fujian white crane that is known as Calling Crane.
> 
> I just noticed in some earlier posts, someone was making reference to a Whooping Crane style.  It does not exist.



The name's not based off spices names.... It's just adjectives added before crane. I think he meant 鸣鹤拳 which is Calling or Crying Crane.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 7, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> I'm guesi
> 
> 
> The name's not based off spices names.... It's just adjectives added before crane. I think he meant 鸣鹤拳 which is Calling or Crying Crane.


That would make sense, of course.  I do realize it was probably a mistranslation, but people might think they can add any descriptive, but it often doesn't work when talking about a specific species, which a whooping crane is.


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## Seizan (Feb 15, 2015)

Hello All,

I haven't been on line here for some time.  However most of these points have been previously discussed quite fully elswhere for several years.

Here in the MartialTalk forums I was involved with some information exchange regarding the term (not the name) "pangainoon", Shuu Shiwa, and related topics some time back.  If you're interested, that info is posted here:

Pan Gai Noon - dead martial art MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community

I will be happy to discuss a few more points but not on a public forum, please.  My teacher Toyama Sensei was a direct longtime student of the Founder of UechiRyu, and was the Vice President of the UechiRyu KarateDo Kyokai until he retired from Soke in 1970's to look after his family.  Nothing he taught me was contradictory to what may be found in the 19778 UechiRyu Kyohon, endorsed (not written) by Uechi Kanei Sensei.

Not sure if it's allowed to post my home e-mail (which is about to change soon anyway, as I will be changing Internet providers), but you can find me via my website as posted in my profile information.

By the way,

~ Tomoyose Sensei is 85 years old, not in his 90's (born in December 1928), and

~ Shuu Sifu mastered 17 (or 19?) animal systems before he was out of his teens.  He taught a "custom mixture" of animals styles to his students as he saw fit for that individual.  However he had one style based on 7 animals styles that he kept for himself.  This is the style he taught to Kanbun Sensei, which is now known as UechiRyu.

~ Kanbun Sensei told many times that his teacher in China was Shuu Shiwa (also Shuu Shabu, depending on the dialectic pronunciation).  This is recorded in the Kyohon in Kanei Sensei's own words, and told us by Toyama Sensei.  It is a puzzle as to why some folks are trying so hard to dissociate UechiRyu from Shuu Shiwa today when Kanbun Sensei, Kanei Sensei, and others state otherwise.

~ Kanbun Sensei had very solid reasons for not telling or advertising the real name of his Chinese fighting style.  This might be obvious if you know a bit of the Japanese-Chinese socio-political situation since the late 1800's up to the WW2 era.

There is so much more, but the meow is not the cat.  Happy to share but on a more individual level, please.

Best from Nagahama,

Seizan


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## Seizan (Feb 15, 2015)

Oops...  Sorry, that is the 1977 UechiRyu Kyohon.  Fingers arguing with the keyboard today...

;-)


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 15, 2015)

Seizan said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I haven't been on line here for some time.  However most of these points have been previously discussed quite fully elswhere for several years.
> 
> ...


I look forward to seeing you in non-martial art portions.


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## Seizan (Feb 15, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I look forward to seeing you in non-martial art portions.



Oh.  Am I to be drawn and quartered?

Again...?


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## Tames D (Feb 15, 2015)

Seizan,
I'm turned off by your secretive  nature. Share with all or don't share at all.


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## Seizan (Feb 15, 2015)

Tames D said:


> I'm turned off by your secretive nature. Share with all or don't share at all.



Why would it offend or even concern anyone that I prefer to take a more discrete sharing of information off-forum?


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## TimoS (Feb 16, 2015)

Seizan said:


> Why would it offend or even concern anyone that I prefer to take a more discrete sharing of information off-forum?


Well, it kind of defeats the idea of discussion forum  Not that I mind, I just understand the logic why someone might be upset about it.


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## Seizan (Feb 16, 2015)

I have been a member of MartialTalk for a relatively short time compared to some others, and do not post often because of my teaching job, dojo duties, and family focus.  However when I do post, I try to share information that helps resolve questions, or that augments sparse historical information.

Not everything in history (be it a person, place, event, or development of an art form) is known (and frustratingly enough, some is not meant to be known).  But quite a lot about UechiRyu and its history is already published -- some of it in other languages, but still available as a published piece, article, magazine, book, video, etc.

For many years I posted information, research, and translations from Japanese on George E. Mattson’s Eastern Arts forums.  It would be nearly impossible to collect and encapsulate all that information.  So when I ask to be contacted off-line on any specific topic, I do my best to honor the correspondent by providing what I have on hand, and directing him to a collected list of forum entries (links) in which he may find much more detailed information, possibly more than he thought existed.  At 61, I spent 41 years training in UechiRyu (the past 36 on Okinawa, and the last 17 under the top senior in the system) and learned at least a few hard-earned lesser-known facts about the system and its history.  But I found that much has already been published, just not shared with foreigners very much.  And so I am willing to share with those who need or appreciate it.  But it would mean little to, say, a long-time practitioner of TKD, or a boxer, or some other non-related system, unless he was seriously researching to make a change to UechiRyu.  So not too many actually care enough to contact me for this information, which indicates to me that not many readers feel they would benefit from it in the first place...

Also, I’m not sure if it’s OK to post links to another forum – on this forum.  Maybe it is, but somehow it disagrees with my sense of propriety.  So I prefer to take some discussions off line.

You were not, to my knowledge, excluded from that invitation...

So -- I am not teasing anyone with “secretiveness”; rather I do offer to share – just in a more personal manner.  If this can be understood by other forum members, I’m gratified...

Best,

Seizan


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 16, 2015)

Seizan said:


> Oh.  Am I to be drawn and quartered?
> 
> Again...?


Sounds like fun.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 16, 2015)

Seizan said:


> I have been a member of MartialTalk for a relatively short time compared to some others, and do not post often because of my teaching job, dojo duties, and family focus.  However when I do post, I try to share information that helps resolve questions, or that augments sparse historical information.
> 
> Not everything in history (be it a person, place, event, or development of an art form) is known (and frustratingly enough, some is not meant to be known).  But quite a lot about UechiRyu and its history is already published -- some of it in other languages, but still available as a published piece, article, magazine, book, video, etc.
> 
> ...


But we need you to comment on our ideas, or you will just be a lost name on the list. This post won't be a new post for long.


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## Seizan (Feb 16, 2015)

I'm not worried about staying an unknown.  I do what I can when I can.  As seen, I corrected a few bits of information in this thread already.


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## Seizan (Feb 16, 2015)

Seizan said:


> ~ Tomoyose Sensei is 85 years old, not in his 90's (born in December 1928), and



Sorry, he is 86.  He will be 87 in December.  The video shown was made at a public hall near my home in Yomitan in October 2002, when he was 73.

Yes, I failed math.  

Seizan


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 16, 2015)

Hello Seizan,
Good to see you here.  Every time uechi-ryu comes up  here I wish I had your direct knowledge.  You really should write a book.  Many of the topics you have written about on "the other" website are very in depth but I can never seem to find them when I need them.  I hope everything I have written is consistent with what you know. If not feel free to message me.  

Hoshin


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## Seizan (Feb 16, 2015)

Hoshin,

Hello old friend.  If you Google me, you'll find my e-mail address easily enough.  Send me a short line and I'll send you the list of links to the various threads I contributed to, and a bit more...

There was a book in the works but things changed, people came and went, some information had to be omitted (when some folks left I felt it unethical to use their contributions), and some points in the history are still unclear.  Some should really be presented by a Uechi Family member and not by an "outsider".  Some of it is rather sensitive and involves other people and families, so should be handled with more delicacy than I can muster.  Quite a lot has been published and so is open knowledge, but the whole story is still incomplete.  I do my best to present what I can without stepping on respectable toes that live very close by to my home and dojo...

Regards,

Seizan


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## Juanpa Ookami (Jul 8, 2015)

TimoS said:


> Getting a bit off-topic, but I am a bit curious about why Kanbun Uechi learnt only three kata. Not say that there isn't probably plenty to learn even in those, but it just seems curious.


I'm just new here so sorry if I revive this post, as Uechi Ryu student I can confirm that learn Sanchin 100% correct is very, very, very hard. Learn the movement is easy, because is not a complicate kata, but the complication is in perform all the movement, breathing, position,... in a perfect way, also the katas was simplified from the original form to teach them so until you are not able to perform the basic form you can not move to the advance form of the kata. Is really dificult control all the body in the correct way to do a perfect kata, from outside could just seems another karate kata, in fact it seems a very easy karate kata, but that is becuase is not usually teached in the original way. That is the reason way kanbum only get 3 katas in the time that it was in China, he could not learn other kata until he was not able to learn Sanchin and prepare the body to continue the larning path.


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## Seizan (Jul 8, 2015)

Juanpa Ookami said:


> I'm just new here so sorry if I revive this post, as Uechi Ryu student I can confirm that learn Sanchin 100% correct is very, very, very hard. Learn the movement is easy, because is not a complicate kata, but the complication is in perform all the movement, breathing, position,... in a perfect way, also the katas was simplified from the original form to teach them so until you are not able to perform the basic form you can not move to the advance form of the kata. Is really dificult control all the body in the correct way to do a perfect kata, from outside could just seems another karate kata, in fact it seems a very easy karate kata, but that is becuase is not usually teached in the original way. That is the reason way kanbum only get 3 katas in the time that it was in China, he could not learn other kata until he was not able to learn Sanchin and prepare the body to continue the larning path.



Welcome to MartialTalk.

According to my teacher, Kanbun Sensei learned three kata in China.  However he didn't learn a basic and advanced form of any of those three.  He learned -- and taught -- only one form of Sanchin.  Of course it was roughly performed by new students and he refined it as training went on, but there was no advanced form separate from a beginning or basic form.

It normally took ten years to "master" Sanchin alone.  There were many other techniques and training drills, conditioning, etc. to learn along the way, but ten years was average.  Kanbun Sensei learned Sanchin well enough in three years that Shuu Shiwa then taught him Seisan, advancing Kanbun Sensei far past his peer students.  By the end of a ten-year period, Kanbun Sensei had learned up to Sandairyu (Sanseiryu) and was authorized to teach.  He intended to learn Suparinpe but did not have the opportunity, as he left China after teaching for three years.  This was stated by his son Kanei Sensei and is quoted in the 1977 Kyohon.

We have few kata (three from China and five additional forms created by Uechi Kanei Sensei and the Kata Development Committee), but in UechiRyu we emphasize the depth of understanding these forms and their concepts, not the number of forms.

Regards,

Seizan


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## Juanpa Ookami (Jul 8, 2015)

Seizan said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk.
> 
> According to my teacher, Kanbun Sensei learned three kata in China.  However he didn't learn a basic and advanced form of any of those three.  He learned -- and taught -- only one form of Sanchin.  Of course it was roughly performed by new students and he refined it as training went on, but there was no advanced form separate from a beginning or basic form.
> 
> ...


You are completly right, sorry the english is not my mother language so maybe I do not explain correctly, with the diferent version (levels) of the kata what i wanted to mention is that nowadays, there are different versions of sanchin depending of the sensei line and the influence that he has from other styles, as Sanchin is the first kata that you must learn and you need a lot of time to be a master of the kata the new students do not learn the original Sanching kata, they learn a simplify version, I never have seen the original form, but my sensei has talked us about it. But as you mention Kanbum didn't learn diferent version,is something that appear later with the transmision of the kata.


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## TimoS (Jul 8, 2015)

Seizan said:


> in UechiRyu we emphasize the depth of understanding these forms and their concepts, not the number of forms.


I think that's a really good idea and we try our best to do the same.


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## Seizan (Jul 8, 2015)

Juanpa Ookami said:


> You are completly right, sorry the english is not my mother language so maybe I do not explain correctly, with the diferent version (levels) of the kata what i wanted to mention is that nowadays, there are different versions of sanchin depending of the sensei line and the influence that he has from other styles, as Sanchin is the first kata that you must learn and you need a lot of time to be a master of the kata the new students do not learn the original Sanching kata, they learn a simplify version, I never have seen the original form, but my sensei has talked us about it. But as you mention Kanbum didn't learn diferent version,is something that appear later with the transmision of the kata.



Interesting.  In 41 years of training in UechiRyu I have seen only the entire Sanchin as it is performed from Day One to top senior student level.  I have never seen a simplified version.  Kanbun Sensei's old original Sanchin is a bit different from the modern style but not significantly so (to see it).

We practice the original old style of Sanchin, Seisan, and Sandairyu.  We apply older style technique to the "added five" therefor performing them in the old style.

I have seen "test kata / performance kata / competition kata" style taught for the same kata (like Seichin, or Seiryu, etc.) in some UechiRyu dojo.  It can get really fancy and quite interesting to see the variations!  However we were taught that there is only one performance style for any kata.


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## Juanpa Ookami (Jul 8, 2015)

Seizan said:


> Interesting.  In 41 years of training in UechiRyu I have seen only the entire Sanchin as it is performed from Day One to top senior student level.  I have never seen a simplified version.  Kanbun Sensei's old original Sanchin is a bit different from the modern style but not significantly so (to see it).
> 
> We practice the original old style of Sanchin, Seisan, and Sandairyu.  We apply older style technique to the "added five" therefor performing them in the old style.
> 
> I have seen "test kata / performance kata / competition kata" style taught for the same kata (like Seichin, or Seiryu, etc.) in some UechiRyu dojo.  It can get really fancy and quite interesting to see the variations!  However we were taught that there is only one performance style for any kata.


For sure that he original is only one, and I do not know the diferences, also is posible that I do not appreaciate it, maybe my sempais already do it and I'm not prepared yet to see the difference. I do not expect a big different, and probably are small details that help to the comprehension of the kata. Maybe say that there are different version or level is not the right way to deffine it, some day I will return back to the post to say if I learn something different of are only small details


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## Seizan (Jul 8, 2015)

The Sanchin I teach was taught by my teacher, who was a direct student of Kanbun Sensei.  It is not the same as the Sanchin you practice, I think.  This older style is taught only within my association on Okinawa.  All others teach the Sanchin etc. that was taught by Uechi Kanei Sensei, who modified his father's old style.

This is also quoted in the 1977 Kyohon by Kanei Sensei himself.

Old or new style, the depth of understanding the kata and its concepts is what's most important.


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## Juanpa Ookami (Jul 8, 2015)

Seizan said:


> The Sanchin I teach was taught by my teacher, who was a direct student of Kanbun Sensei.  It is not the same as the Sanchin you practice, I think.  This older style is taught only within my association on Okinawa.  All others teach the Sanchin etc. that was taught by Uechi Kanei Sensei, who modified his father's old style.
> 
> This is also quoted in the 1977 Kyohon by Kanei Sensei himself.
> 
> Old or new style, the depth of understanding the kata and its concepts is what's most important.


If it's not too indiscreet a question, who was your sensei? We also practice the traditional Uechi Ryu, we are members of the shubukai than kanbun uechi create.


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## Seizan (Jul 8, 2015)

My teacher was Toyama Seiko Sensei (1928-2009), last active student of Uechi Kanbun Sensei.

http://zankyokai.tacticalenergyinc.com/

Regards,

Seizan


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## Juanpa Ookami (Jul 8, 2015)

Oh, amaizing, I have seen and hear about Toyama Sensei, is a pleasure know you.
Domo arigato gozaimashita


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