# A Little Bit of Bagua



## Steel Tiger (Mar 4, 2008)

Found some interesting bagua clips and I thought someone else might find them interesting too.

Check this guy out.  He is 89!.  Moves quite well but his hands are outstanding.  He is doing Bu style.




 
Something different.  This guy is doing Shi Style




 
Here is GM Tian Ke Yan demonstrating Yin Yang Style




 
And, to finish, a bit of Sun Zhi Jun.  What can you say.


----------



## newtothe dark (Mar 5, 2008)

Sun Zhi Jun and the Master doing Bu style are so impresive. I hope to live to my 80's I do not expect to move like that then WOW!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2008)

I like watching good bagua

Thanks :asian:


----------



## Jin Gang (Mar 5, 2008)

I've had that one of Sun Zhi Jun on my favorites for a while.  A couple more I like

Feng Zheng Bao (turn off the sound)




 
Jiang Style Bagua


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 5, 2008)

Jin Gang said:


> I've had that one of Sun Zhi Jun on my favorites for a while. A couple more I like
> 
> Feng Zheng Bao (turn off the sound)
> 
> ...


 

Yes, very nice.  I particularly like Feng Zheng Bao's Swimming Dragon.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2008)

WHAT!!!  No Cheng style or Yin Style clips!!!!! :angry: :uhyeah: 



Jin Gang said:


> I've had that one of Sun Zhi Jun on my favorites for a while. A couple more I like
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said it before and I will say it again... I like watching good bagua - thanks


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 5, 2008)

Just for you Xue. Afterall, I wouldn't want to insult you style or teacher.

Cheng style Eight Palms




 
Yin style from Zhu Baozhen's school




 

And just because I found it, some more Sun Zhi Jun




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQTcxr7ciSg&feature=related


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 5, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Just for you Xue. Afterall, I wouldn't want to insult you style or teacher.
> 
> Cheng style Eight Palms
> 
> ...


 
Thank You, I feel better now.

I only did one form of Cheng and one of Yin and it has been years but I have been rather partial to Yin ever since. The older gemtleman at the beginning of the Yin Style clip is Zhu Baozhen and he is in Beijing and if I ever do end up living there for a year and he is still teaching, I have to admit it is very tempting.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 8, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Here is GM Tian Ke Yan demonstrating Yin Yang Style


 
My mother-in-law is here from Beijing and she handed me a vcd she got in Beijing and it is of this guy and Yin Yang Baguazhang.

And this guy Tian Ke Yan is in Beijing I believe. 

I REALLY like this style of Bagua would you happen to know more about its origin?

I was looking and I came up with something that referred me to Yin Yang Bapanzhang Is this the same thing?

I am seriously considering trying to learn this if I can find a teacher close to where I live and then whenever I am in Beijing. But this is all very dependant on finding a teacher of this style close to where I live.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 8, 2008)

I have always been interested in Bagua since reading Mr. Smiths Book many years ago.  Sorry forget the title and I no longer have it (it burned in a fire years ago)

nice clips


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> My mother-in-law is here from Beijing and she handed me a vcd she got in Beijing and it is of this guy and Yin Yang Baguazhang.
> 
> And this guy Tian Ke Yan is in Beijing I believe.
> 
> ...


 
Yin Yang Baguazhang and Yin Yang Bapanzhang do appear to be different.  While both are branches of bagua originating with Dong Haichaun they follow quite different paths.  Bapanzhang, as you probably already know, was developed by Liu Baozhen.  Yin Yang Baguazhang, also known as Tian Baguazhang, appears to have been developed by one of Yin Fu's students - Tian Hui (or Tian Hou Ye, or Tian Hou Jie, or Tian Ruhong ????).  

I found another site
http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/phist.html
This suggests that Yin Yang Baguazhang did not come from Dong Haichaun at all but from one of his student brothers (also taught by the mysterious dong Meng Lin), Li Zhen Qing.  The suggestion being that Meng Lin knew a number of styles of bagua and taught each of his three students a different style.  It's possible but the Tian Hui lineage is attested and probably more accurate.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Yin Yang Baguazhang and Yin Yang Bapanzhang do appear to be different. While both are branches of bagua originating with Dong Haichaun they follow quite different paths. Bapanzhang, as you probably already know, was developed by Liu Baozhen. Yin Yang Baguazhang, also known as Tian Baguazhang, appears to have been developed by one of Yin Fu's students - Tian Hui (or Tian Hou Ye, or Tian Hou Jie, or Tian Ruhong ????).
> 
> I found another site
> http://www.hsing-i.com/pa_kua/phist.html
> This suggests that Yin Yang Baguazhang did not come from Dong Haichaun at all but from one of his student brothers (also taught by the mysterious dong Meng Lin), Li Zhen Qing. The suggestion being that Meng Lin knew a number of styles of bagua and taught each of his three students a different style. It's possible but the Tian Hui lineage is attested and probably more accurate.


 
Thanks, great link

So far however I have found no one near me that knows Yin Yang Bagua or any Bagua for that matter. The closet REAL bagua is about 2 hours East of me and Yin style Bagua


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks, great link
> 
> So far however I have found no one near me that knows Yin Yang Bagua or any Bagua for that matter. The closet REAL bagua is about 2 hours East of me and Yin style Bagua


 
Yin Yang might be very difficult to find outside China.  Given it was described as one of the more popular styles (along with Yin, Wudang, and Emei) I have found it difficult to find any good information about it beyond a couple of videos and a site or two.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Yin Yang might be very difficult to find outside China. Given it was described as one of the more popular styles (along with Yin, Wudang, and Emei) I have found it difficult to find any good information about it beyond a couple of videos and a site or two.


 
Apparently the guy that is doing the Yin Yang Bagua form is in Beijing and that is where I will go next time and after the Olympics are over I will be going every year or every 2 years but I just can't see the benefit of going to Beijing and training once a year for a week or 2 or once every 2 years without a Sifu here as well. 

I will have to think about this one. But I do really like that style of Bagua.

I imagine, much like Xingyiquan, there are stances that need to be trained at the beginning. If so what are those, if you don&#8217;t mind me asking?

My 2 bagua forms I did were from a Wushu guy so there was more form and less substance.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2008)

I just found this here



> Late Tian Hui, famous Baguazhang expert, in early 1980s appeared on Beijing Baguazhang scene claiming to be inheritor of rare Bagua style passed for generations within Tian family and coming from Emei Mountains - not from Dong Haichuan. While the question about how genuine Tian Hui's Bagua is still not yet answered, it is generally agreed that Tian Hui was a very gifted expert of martial arts with true fighting skills. The family tradition is now carried out by Tian Keyan, Tian Hui's son. The style is characterized by snake-like, twisting movements, and looks distinctively different from other Bagua styles.


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 10, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Apparently the guy that is doing the Yin Yang Bagua form is in Beijing and that is where I will go next time and after the Olympics are over I will be going every year or every 2 years but I just can't see the benefit of going to Beijing and training once a year for a week or 2 or once every 2 years without a Sifu here as well.
> 
> I will have to think about this one. But I do really like that style of Bagua.
> 
> ...


 
I tried to post a reply earlier but my computer had something of a fit and scrubbed everything I wrote.  So I'll try again.  In terms of basics I think we run into a fundamental difference between bagua and taiji and xingyi.  Taiji has its 13 postures, xingyi has San Ti, but bagua tends to look at essential movements rather than stances.  

There is a posture that is adopted in all bagua forms - one foot forward, weight distributed 80/20 between back and front feet, upper body turned almost 90 degrees to the side, that side arm extended, the other across the body.  It can be called the Gate Guarding Posture.  The thing is, though, that you don't really stand is the posture for any length of time, you're always moving, usually for a sequence of eight steps before a change.

I consider three things to be basic to bagua.

The first is becoming comfortable with walking the circle with pace.  This may sound pretty straightforward but you have to remember the focus on a central position.  It is very easy to lose that focus and then your circle gets kinda wonky.

The second thing is becoming comfortable with changing direction, either on the same circle or onto a different circle.  Figure-eight walking is very good for developing this sense even though it involves only a simple palm change.

The third thing would be mud-walking.  The degree to which mud-walking is applied varies with each style, and, apparently, each practitioner.  The masters is the videos above didn't do it at all.  My own style uses a very truncated form.  The thing is, though, it is good for developing good balance while travelling around in a circle.

I guess, like all nie jia, it comes down to balance and connection to the ground.  Rather than with strong, balanced postures, bagua does this with balanced motion.





Xue Sheng said:


> I just found this here


 
Now that's very interesting (and might explain why I encontered so many problems with the founders name, which I think now was Tian Hou Jie).  I did find this, however: 



> *T*ian Hou-Jie (Tian Ruhong) was a native of Shandong Province but moved to Hebei province in the late Ming Dynasty. Once while on tour in Sichuan Province, Tian saw some criminal activity and tried to exact justice. Two Daoist priests (Pi Yun and Jing Yun) rescued him when he was having problems and from that point on he acknowledge them as his wushu tutors and followed them for the next 12 years.
> *A*t the beginning of the Qing Dynasty Tian returned home but resented the autocracy of the local authorities and left again. He took a youngster named Tian Xuan with him and taught him his style of Yin Yang Bagua Zhang. Years later Tian Xuan returned to his home fillage in Shandong Province and taught the style to other Tian family members. Until recently the style was only taught in this village to these family members. - _The Power Palms of BaGua Zhang 2002_


 
This would suggest that the style was extant before Dong Haichuan learnt his style from Dong Meng Lin, so maybe the story of Li Zhen Qing is not so far from the truth.

Is it likely that Tian Hui changed his name when he became the 'inheritor' of the Tian (Yin Yang) style?  It is supposedly a family style afterall.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> I tried to post a reply earlier but my computer had something of a fit and scrubbed everything I wrote. So I'll try again. In terms of basics I think we run into a fundamental difference between bagua and taiji and xingyi. Taiji has its 13 postures, xingyi has San Ti, but bagua tends to look at essential movements rather than stances.
> 
> There is a posture that is adopted in all bagua forms - one foot forward, weight distributed 80/20 between back and front feet, upper body turned almost 90 degrees to the side, that side arm extended, the other across the body. It can be called the Gate Guarding Posture. The thing is, though, that you don't really stand is the posture for any length of time, you're always moving, usually for a sequence of eight steps before a change.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks, my first Sifu was better than I thought at Bagua I guess. He made sure we focused on the center to maintain the circle, he had us do direction changes within the same circle and to another circle and in the second form (I think that was the Cheng form) we got into mud walking. And I do seem to remember trying figure 8s but that one I am not 100% sure about if he had us do that or if I tried that on my own.

Hmmmm I am thinking maybe I should see if I can get those back and then maybe... just maybe... seeing if I can meet with this guy the next time I am in Beijing to see what he thinks about teaching someone a couple of weeks a year. But I am still not sure about how much understanding one can gain from meeting with your Sifu once a year for only 1 or 2 weeks.

I got time to think about it so it is no rush.

The history of the style is also interesting in that it just might not come from Dong Haichuan. But that would explain why it looks different to me than the other Bagua styles that I have seen and I really like what I have seen so far. I think I will see if my in-laws can find anymore DVDs for me to look at and see if they will ship them to me.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2008)

Wudang Yin Yang Baguazhang 

And this looks different that what Tian Ke Yan is doing


----------



## Steel Tiger (Mar 11, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wudang Yin Yang Baguazhang
> 
> And this looks different that what Tian Ke Yan is doing


 
While I know that the majority of Wudang styles originated elsewhere and were heavily modified when they came to the mountains, it is possible that Emei and Wudang are the birthplaces of bagua.  If Tian style was passed down by someone from Emei, then it would not be unreasonsable to see a variation still extant in the region.

Just look at the styles practiced at Emei
Snake
Tibetan Cobra
Dragon 
Tiger
White Eyebrow
Wuji (its kinda like taiji apparently)
Emei Sword Fairies
Bagua - Shengmen (Generation door), Sengmen (Monk Family), You Shen (Swimming Body), Jiulong (developed by the Li Family)

Its a hotbed of martial arts and Wudang is just the same.  
The Emei mountains might be the homeland of bagua.


----------

