# Well There goes another one...



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

I have watched a friend of mine (a younger Taiji brother) go off the deep end with Taiji and qigong. He goes around now and teaches and goes to various seminars and other people looking for more stuff to learn and train. And I know exactly what he is doing because for a while I went down the road too. I did not go as far down the road as he has but I did start to go there. I came back however and I am not sure he ever will. 

He is looking for more training in topics from people that are not as qualified as those that are easily accessible to him. He wants deep knowledge of Qigong and Taiji and he is going all over that place, joining different organizations and getting various certifications (that are pretty much meaningless) and building his resume (yes he now actually has a Taiji, Qigong resume). He is collecting Qigong forms he is holding classes and giving seminars but he really does not understand much of the qigong he teaches beyond form. And when he was showing up to class with our sifu he was doing the forms incorrectly and getting corrected by our sifu and now he has stopped showing up to pursue other teachers that are (IMO) much less qualified than our sifu that likely do not correct him as much. He even showed up to class and during a bit of qigong training our sifu was doing he decided to teach some qigong of his own. My opinion of what he taught (I kept to myself) was rather low and my sifu walked over to me and basically said the whole thing was fung le.

My friend use to talk about learning Taiji and how much there was to learn from our sifu and how he really wanted to learn the real art and then it all changed, rather quickly. I have often thought about asking him to lunch one day to discuss this but when I talk to my wife about it her statement (being very Chinese) why do you care, it is his life not yours and it does not affect you, which is followed by let him go and you just worry about yourself.

And to be honest, at this point, I am inclined to agree with her, although a few months ago I might not have.

There are 4 people in our area (I am not one of them) that are by far (IMO) much more qualified and better trained than any he is paying copious amounts of money in lessons and travel to go train with. The only thing I see is that they will not sugar coat anything, teach based on the reality of their background and training (in other words there are no shortcuts and forms collection is meaningless and training is hard work) and they charge considerably less. However none are published (at least not in the US) and none care much about the mainstream Taiji/Qigong/CMA lite that goes on in this country and if you list them on a resume it would take too much explaining to impress others.


Well I guess another one bites the dust


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 19, 2010)

It sounds like he is going for the easy certifications and setting himself up as the expert by doing so.  Unfortunately he does not want to learn correctly and by your comments above really does not want to be corrected.  I have seen this happen many, many times and it is always sad!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> It sounds like he is going for the easy certifications and setting himself up as the expert by doing so. Unfortunately he does not want to learn correctly and by your comments above really does not want to be corrected. I have seen this happen many, many times and it is always sad!


 
Thanks Brian

That is pretty much where I am at; he does not want correction, he is looking to set himself up as an "expert" (based on organizational cert) and this is why I am just going to let it go. I use to go to his house to work on his forms and tuishou, he was seriously double weighted but he was learning, and he was one of the people my sifu was talking about bring to an advanced level and then... it all changed. 


And I agree it is always sad.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 19, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are 4 people in our area (I am not one of them) that are by far (IMO) much more qualified and better trained than any he is paying copious amounts of money in lessons and travel to go train with. The only thing I see is that *they will not sugar coat anything,* teach based on the reality of their background and training (in other words there are no shortcuts and forms collection is meaningless and training is hard work) and they charge considerably less...


 
Just last Sunday, Sigung was berating his disciples for not performing up to his expectations.  He went on to say, "in America, people love you with their mouth."  Meaning, they tell you things that make you feel good about yourself, even if they need to lie to do so.  But he then says, "I love you with my heart"  meaning, he tells you the truth, even if it's bad news, not what you wanted to hear.  

It can be a bitter pill to swallow, but in the long run it is so much better for you, when it's coming from someone who is truly knowledgeable.  Those people are a rare find, and when you find them and get in the door, you hang on with a death-grip.  People who's delicate egos cannot hear the criticism should find something else to do.  People who need to hear praise should go take an aerobics class in a fancy gym.


----------



## mograph (Oct 19, 2010)

It looks as if those who spread the _good_ word need to get organized and stem this tide of Taijiquan decay. 

... but is that actually possible?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

mograph said:


> It looks as if those who spread the _good_ word need to get organized and stem this tide of Taijiquan decay.
> 
> ... but is that actually possible?


 
To be honest, I don't think it is my sifu gave up trying. He does not think many take Taiji seriously these days. This makes this a bit of a blow to him as well. He decided to try and teach this person real Taiji and then they just went off and trained with anyone that would give a cert to add to the resume. All this did was just prove to him what he said to me was correct no one takes Taiji seriously anymore, all they want it to learn a form or two and go off and call themselves masters.

And I have said many times before Chen Xiaowang said he felt Taiji as a martial art was dead because there are so few that really know it as compared to those that do not.

Or the way I explain it; mathematically speaking when you take a very small number (those that know real Taiji) and divided by a very large number (those that dont) the answer is so close to zero it is sometimes considered zero.

All I do these days is just train what I know and let the others go


----------



## oaktree (Oct 19, 2010)

> I have watched a friend of mine (a younger Taiji brother) go off the deep end with Taiji and qigong. He goes around now and teaches and goes to various seminars and other people looking for more stuff to learn and train. And I know exactly what he is doing because for a while I went down the road too. I did not go as far down the road as he has but I did start to go there. I came back however and I am not sure he ever will.


 I am sorry to hear that my friend. 



> He is looking for more training in topics from people that are not as qualified as those that are easily accessible to him. He wants deep knowledge of Qigong and Taiji and he is going all over that place, joining different organizations and getting various certifications (that are pretty much meaningless) and building his resume (yes he now actually has a Taiji, Qigong resume).


Qigong certifictions and all the different organizations are just squabbles and meaningless. Also they cost a large amount of money and you have monthly fees and all that what a waste and a headache. Now if I had a bottle of Aspirin and a few $1,000 well guess who is the new member of American Qigong Association :uhyeah:.



> He is collecting Qigong forms he is holding classes and giving seminars but he really does not understand much of the qigong he teaches beyond form.


 The forms are empty shells without the theory.
In fact if you know the theory you can make up your own forms. I have seen quite alot of Modern Medical Qigong(I want to say possible 50-25 years old) that follow TCM theory and looks like the results would be very good. I dare say may be more effective than say some of the Ming Tao yin
that makes you walk on your hands
Most teachers I have met can not explain the why and how of a form. If you can not explain it then the understanding of it is superfical.



> And when he was showing up to class with our sifu he was doing the forms incorrectly and getting corrected by our sifu and now he has stopped showing up to pursue other teachers that are (IMO) much less qualified than our sifu that likely do not correct him as much.


How sad when stubborness take root in a person's heart.



> He even showed up to class and during a bit of qigong training our sifu was doing he decided to teach some qigong of his own. My opinion of what he taught (I kept to myself) was rather low and my sifu walked over to me and basically said the whole thing was fung le.


 I think that is very disrespectful. Fung le....I wonder is it better to be Fung Le(crazy) or Ugly(just ugly) hmm now Fugly has a new meaning to be crazy ugly haha. Sorry I always look for humor in things.
 When a joke is to good to pass on it is Heavens way for you to say it proving that gods have a sense of humor.



> My friend use to talk about learning Taiji and how much there was to learn from our sifu and how he really wanted to learn the real art and then it all changed, rather quickly. I have often thought about asking him to lunch one day to discuss this but when I talk to my wife about it her statement (being very Chinese) why do you care, it is his life not yours and it does not affect you, which is followed by let him go and you just worry about yourself.


 Sometimes you do have to let people make their own choices.
Other times it is time to intervene finding out when to do so and when not to is a skill that few master.



> There are 4 people in our area (I am not one of them) that are by far (IMO) much more qualified and better trained than any he is paying copious amounts of money in lessons and travel to go train with.


Isn't that always so! what is free or good and pure is cheaper but twisted diluted vile is more expensive. Delusions of grandeur indeed!




> The only thing I see is that they will not sugar coat anything, teach based on the reality of their background and training (in other words there are no shortcuts and forms collection is meaningless and training is hard work


 To great secrets. 1. Much of it is inside the person 2. and the other is the paradox of less is more. But the correct teacher just moves that 1 inch that makes the difference of moving the world or causing you to fail at understanding. Well in my limited experience.



> However none are published (at least not in the US) and none care much about the mainstream Taiji/Qigong/CMA lite that goes on in this country and if you list them on a resume it would take too much explaining to impress others.


  What's mainstream Taiji/Qigong/Cma . If I saw a Qigong resume I would say "Oh ya, well explain the theory of how this works according to the Jingluo channels,San bao, wuxing, Yin ang yang, Kan and Li. A proper teacher should be able to do this or at least Bullshi* enough were it might be plausible :lfao:

Also I have noticed most of the Qigong teachers and even CMA masters who know who got it they tend to have a sense of humor. Even the monk who did Qigong looking at the sun and went blind said" well that was stupid"

Do not worry to much errorous paths always become known eventually.

Hmm I sound like a fortune cookie today. Sorry not my intent.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Just last Sunday, Sigung was berating his disciples for not performing up to his expectations. He went on to say, "in America, people love you with their mouth." Meaning, they tell you things that make you feel good about yourself, even if they need to lie to do so. But he then says, "I love you with my heart" meaning, he tells you the truth, even if it's bad news, not what you wanted to hear.
> 
> It can be a bitter pill to swallow, but in the long run it is so much better for you, when it's coming from someone who is truly knowledgeable. Those people are a rare find, and when you find them and get in the door, you hang on with a death-grip. People who's delicate egos cannot hear the criticism should find something else to do. People who need to hear praise should go take an aerobics class in a fancy gym.


 
What a lot of people don't understand about CMA training (especially with an old school Chinese sifu) is that compliments are few and far between and criticism and corrections is the norm. It is when that criticism and correction stop you need to worry.


----------



## oaktree (Oct 19, 2010)

> To be honest, I don't think it is my sifu gave up trying. He does not think many take Taiji seriously these days. This makes this a bit of a blow to him as well. He decided to try and teach this person real Taiji and then they just went off and trained with anyone that would give a cert to add to the resume. All this did was just prove to him what he said to me was correct no one takes Taiji seriously anymore, all they want it to learn a form or two and go off and call themselves masters.


 Your teacher is nice. I think mine would just throw something at him and say "well Qigong master how come you did not feel the Qi disturbance and avoid it?" 

I never told you about the story about one of Chen Taijiquan teachers who when teaching got mad at someone in the park and yelled" hey come over here so I can kick your as* with this slow looking stuff in front of your cute girlfriend"


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

oaktree said:


> I am sorry to hear that my friend.
> 
> Qigong certifictions and all the different organizations are just squabbles and meaningless. Also they cost a large amount of money and you have monthly fees and all that what a waste and a headache. Now if I had a bottle of Aspirin and a few $1,000 well guess who is the new member of American Qigong Association :uhyeah:.


 
bingo




oaktree said:


> Most teachers I have met can not explain the why and how of a form. If you can not explain it then the understanding of it is superfical.


 
Forms collectors all.

My wife cannot quite figure out why so many people here wnt to learn so many forms since all you rally need is one and if your a teacher you know more but not likely 100.



oaktree said:


> I think that is very disrespectful. Fung le....I wonder is it better to be Fung Le(crazy) or Ugly(just ugly) hmm now Fugly has a new meaning to be crazy ugly haha. Sorry I always look for humor in things.
> When a joke is to good to pass on it is Heavens way for you to say it proving that gods have a sense of humor.


 
That would be Fuglzy, not to be confused with the American definition 



oaktree said:


> Sometimes you do have to let people make their own choices.
> Other times it is time to intervene finding out when to do so and when not to is a skill that few master.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## oaktree (Oct 19, 2010)

> My wife cannot quite figure out why so many people here wnt to learn so many forms since all you rally need is one and if your a teacher you know more but not likely 100.


 I think it is because of the maxim _"that more is better."_
Example: :ladysman: You see two girls for every boy was not just a song but
a secret message that few decipher.....The Beach boy code(like the Davinci code only with better music) 



> That would be Fuglzy, not to be confused with the American definition


 
Adj. To be crazy and ugly beyond human recognition.
_ Man, That guy was so Fuglzy that I had to wash my eyes with tear gas._



> One of the perks to being married into the Chinese community,


I will have the same perk some day :boing1:



> The last I knew Beijing University of Traditional Chinese Medicine was researching internal and external qi and they said external was easy to prove but internal was rather difficult and although they did believe there were people that had great understanding of it that the majority of people out there claiming great powers of qi were.....well....fake


 Very interesting why can't guangzhou university do something cool all they produces is 3 needle acupuncture man I want to see the point combination.



> No you haven't and THAT one I would love to hear more about


 Sadly nothing materialized just some heated word-fu. Still it was funny.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

oaktree said:


> Very interesting why can't guangzhou university do something cool all they produces is 3 needle acupuncture man I want to see the point combination.


 
All I can say is things are different in Beijing.... :uhohh: the govenment is there :uhyeah:




oaktree said:


> Sadly nothing materialized just some heated word-fu. Still it was funny.


 
Per chance was this a 20th generation teacher :EG:?


----------



## oaktree (Oct 19, 2010)

> Per chance was this a 20th generation teacher :EG:?


 
Why yes....yes indeed must be something in the water hehe.

His teacher was 19th generation Chen Wang Xian.

I spoke to my teacher(who trains with Chen Xiaowang) about my old teacher I said to him"why is he always so angry?" My teacher laughed and said "well thats just him" 

Not everyone who does Taijiquan is gentle some of them are just fierce.
 I will send you a PM of my old teacher you can see how low he goes.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 19, 2010)

oaktree said:


> Why yes....yes indeed must be something in the water hehe.
> 
> His teacher was 19th generation Chen Wang Xian.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks

I may do taiji but I too get angry from time to time :EG:


----------



## East Winds (Oct 20, 2010)

Xue Sheng,

I think we all in our taiji journey go through the "collecting forms" period. We are all searching for the "magic key" that opens the real taiji door. It takes a long time (and a real teacher) to make you realise there is no magic key and those that tell you there is, are charlatans!!! When you find a real teacher you "hang on with a death grip" as Flying Crane so aptly put it. You suddenly realise that there is so much to learn about your own system, you do not have time to learn other systems and you regret the time you have lost/wasted in pursuit of the obvious!!!! The obscure suddenly becomes clear. You realise just how important the basics are and without a PROPER understanding of these basics you cannot move on to the advanced!!!

Hopefully it will eventually dawn on your friend. And of course (as always!!!!) your wife is so correct!!!!

Very best wishes


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2010)

So, is there anyone teaching real tai chi chuan in the Austin, Texas area?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> So, is there anyone teaching real tai chi chuan in the Austin, Texas area?


 
I have no idea, I live in the upper right hand corner of the US; who is teaching Taijiquan in your area?


----------



## AidanO (Oct 20, 2010)

East Winds said:


> I think we all in our taiji journey go through the "collecting forms" period. We are all searching for the "magic key" that opens the real taiji door. It takes a long time (and a real teacher) to make you realise there is no magic key and those that tell you there is, are charlatans!!! When you find a real teacher you "hang on with a death grip" as Flying Crane so aptly put it. You suddenly realise that there is so much to learn about your own system, you do not have time to learn other systems and you regret the time you have lost/wasted in pursuit of the obvious!!!! The obscure suddenly becomes clear. You realise just how important the basics are and without a PROPER understanding of these basics you cannot move on to the advanced!!!



Oh there is a magic key. It's just an unpleasant pill to swallow for most people. It's called hard work and lots of muscle pain. Oh and LOTS of repetition. 

I have kinda dipped into the form collection stage throughout my life. But it was more a finding what was right for me. That said, these days I only practice two forms at all. The 108 empty hand and the 54 Jian form. When my Sifu is happy, I'll probably end up learning the 13 Posture Dao form. I'm not the worlds biggest fan of Dao, but I will no doubt end up learning it, (as well as the two person sparring form) just for the entire system. 

That said, I wouldn't mind collecting Jian forms, just to deepen my understanding of the way the blade can move through the air and different things I might come up against.


----------



## David43515 (Oct 20, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> What a lot of people don't understand about CMA training (especially with an old school Chinese sifu) is that compliments are few and far between and criticism and corrections is the norm. It is when that criticism and correction stop you need to worry.


 
That`s for sure. I don`t do Tai Chi, but one of the best teachers I ever had was a demanding, critical old bastard. Nothing I ever did was good enough, until one day after I`d been with him a few years I overheard him critiquing another student and he said "What`s wrong with you? It`s not that hard. Whatch the way Dave does it, he knows what he`s doing." All I could do was smile. I was so happy I was speechless. Then he looked at me and said "Don`t get cocky,you`re still too slow."

I miss that old SOB, but only sometimes.


----------



## clfsean (Oct 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> So, is there anyone teaching real tai chi chuan in the Austin, Texas area?



Look up Dave Pickens. 

He teaches Shuai Jiao & Tai Chi in Round Rock.

Email is rrkungfu@hotmail.com ...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2010)

David43515 said:


> That`s for sure. I don`t do Tai Chi, but one of the best teachers I ever had was a demanding, critical old bastard. Nothing I ever did was good enough, until one day after I`d been with him a few years I overheard him critiquing another student and he said "What`s wrong with you? It`s not that hard. Whatch the way Dave does it, he knows what he`s doing." All I could do was smile. I was so happy I was speechless. Then he looked at me and said "Don`t get cocky,you`re still too slow."
> 
> I miss that old SOB, but only sometimes.


 
The first time my Taiji sifu told me my form was good I was shocked. After years of correction and telling me to go deeper or do this different I was finally good at something. And then I began to worry...but it was all good, he started telling me some of the other forms needed work and I felt better 

My Sanda sifu was not one to give out any complements at all. He would tell me to practice a certain type of kick, I would practicve it for a week and every time I went to show him he always said...need more practice... or...not so good. Heck I bounced once in Tuishou and he said you should have done that sooner.


----------



## ggg214 (Oct 22, 2010)

AidanO said:


> Oh there is a magic key. It's just an unpleasant pill to swallow for most people. It's called hard work and lots of muscle pain. Oh and LOTS of repetition.
> 
> .....


 
it's the point.
no hard no soft.and i believe hardness is basic.


----------



## AidanO (Oct 22, 2010)

ggg214 said:


> it's the point.
> no hard no soft.and i believe hardness is basic.



Um... what?


----------



## mograph (Oct 23, 2010)

I'd like to interpret "hard" as "difficult" in that case.


----------



## AidanO (Oct 23, 2010)

Well in my original post, yes. Hard work, doesn't mean your techniques are hard. They might be complex, and physically draining to learn and difficult.

I guess it was just a communication error.


----------



## ggg214 (Oct 24, 2010)

AidanO said:


> Well in my original post, yes. Hard work, doesn't mean your techniques are hard. They might be complex, and physically draining to learn and difficult.
> 
> I guess it was just a communication error.


 
:duh:, misunderstanding!

i also agree with you about hard work, not training with hardness.


----------



## jonpalombi (Oct 29, 2010)

AidanO said:


> Well in my original post, yes. Hard work, doesn't mean your techniques are hard. They might be complex, and physically draining to learn and difficult.


 
*I concur Aidan,*

There is a distinct difference between that which is a hard; difficult or challenging task or achievement... and that which embodies hardness (like stone, wood, metal or external martial systems). Training oneself to move from the dantian and work to release the tension that limits our flexibility, is really hard work!!! Something as simple as *standing* can be a tremendously hard task. It's a long journey to take and however many steps we take, the next one is still the very first. Life grants us an opportunity to train ourselves to channel Qi and understand it's essence. Like you imply, the degree is difficult, when one's aim is high. 

It is the greatest accomplishment, to train with this kind of intensity and vigor, which is ideally rewarded by a breakthrough experience. While the internal arts are essentially soft, they are combat arts and there is nothing fluffy or easy about them. Even the flow must be learned and re-learned, as we grow in our depth of understanding, eh? Human willpower is the fuel which fires this drive. I believe one can have a primary lineage and spend a lifetime delving into it's depth, certainly. I also feel we can study other forms and gain insights into both, alternate movements and universal truths. I don't see this as a phase or an immature level of enthusiasm. It's been my way for over 40 years. From my heart, it is not "collecting forms" or something like that... it's a very deep commitment to the arts. This requires a clear perspective and an attitude of respect, obedience and admiration. 

Any superficial study of multiple systems will result in a messy glue of an understanding. That being said, I can understand someone's desire to embrace several sword forms from related traditions. Like yourself, I am Yang student with a deep love of Chen taijiquan, Hsing-I and Baguazhang. To say nothing of Wudang sword and Shaolin jian forms. Obviously too much to learn in two lifetimes but still they are most intriguing systems. 

Now, if the pill is bitter to swallow, it is because we feel the pain and exhaustion that accompany this path. The way may be soft but the training is tough, if followed to a dedicated degree. Still, consider the rewards! To fully merge oneself with the martial system of our lineage, gives life to the tradition, even as the tradition gives life to oneself. The method and the practitioner have an undeniable, symbiotic relationship. 

Kudos to those who embrace the spirit of the warrior way and dedicate themselves to the countless hours, days, years... of their chosen practice. Which, in and of itself, takes a whole lifetime. After all, this is an endless journey (with ever expanding horizons).  Too much ambition is like any other obsession, it results in overload and is less than optimum for the student.  One step at a time... 


*Ciao, Jon*


----------



## bluewaveschool (Oct 29, 2010)

jonpalombi said:


> *I concur Aidan,*
> 
> train ourselves to channel Qi and understand it's essence.
> 
> ...



This is one thing that I have never had the chance to learn, but would love to.


----------

