# Anyone familiar with the NYC Shaolin Center?



## jim777 (Feb 11, 2009)

I'm not asking of this is authentic Shaolin, I'm just wondering if anyone has checked this school out or had any personal contact with it? It is incredibly reasonable for a NYC martial arts school, and by a very long shot (most schools are $100-$150 a month, not $400 a year) as well.

http://newyorkshaolin.com/theschool.php

Again, just looking for any personal experience with this particular school.

Thanks in advance


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## jim777 (Feb 17, 2009)

Ok, I think enough time has passed to determine no one has any experience with this particular place. So.... does anyone have any gut feelings about the place by looking at the website and curriculum? Again, not does it seem traditional (they're in gis and wear black belts after all  ) but does it seem like they are covering the material they should, or might? Basically looking for any feedback on the place.

thanks


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## Jin Gang (Feb 17, 2009)

jim777 said:


> Ok, I think enough time has passed to determine no one has any experience with this particular place. So.... does anyone have any gut feelings about the place by looking at the website and curriculum? Again, not does it seem traditional (they're in gis and wear black belts after all  ) but does it seem like they are covering the material they should, or might? Basically looking for any feedback on the place.
> 
> thanks


 
He's a part of this system http://www.shao-lin.com/index.cfm

I studied in this system a few years back, in Colorado.
It is not exactly, literally shaolin.  The lineage comes from Indonesia, and is a mix of various internal and external Chinese styles which were practiced in the Bandung area (some of which certainly may be descended from shaolin martial arts), as well as some things which the founder (Sin Kwang The) may have picked up from other unknown sources through the years.  Of course, this isn't their "official" history, so the stories of the grandmasters you have to take with a grain of salt.
  I will say, the guy who runs the NYC school is an excellent martial artist, or at least he was when I saw him in Boulder, 6 or 7 years ago.  I have no idea how he runs his classes, but he'd probably be a good one to learn from.  

 The system covers a lot of diverse material very fast.  The basic skills are all in there, but it's really up to you to put the time in to get good at them, outside of class.  In my opinion, it would be best if you have a solid foundation in some form of martial arts before you go here.  If this is your first art, I would delay advancing so you can spend enough time practicing the basics.  Otherwise you'll end up like far to many in this system, with a ton of barely remembered forms and no ability to perform them correctly.  

 If you can't afford anything else, I'd say it'd probably be worth it to get a workout and be exposed to a diversity of forms and weapons.  After about 2- 2.5 years, you could have learned somewhere around 30 forms, both empty hand and weapons.  This is if you advance as quickly as possible (which you will be encouraged to do, usually).  The good news is, they can't force you to move on, so you can really spend as long as you want practicing the material.


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## sparky12 (Feb 17, 2009)

I guess that others are familiar with them and say they are legitimate. I am not familiar with them but have a hard time getting past their claim of teaching authentic Shaolin kung fu when nothing seems authentic. I believe that you do what you claim. If he does some combination of many MAs he should advertise that way, not use the Shaolin name to draw business. This does not detract from his skill, but possibly his ethics.
Not trying to offend anyone, it's just the way I feel about it.
Regards, Don


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## Jin Gang (Feb 18, 2009)

I agree, I wish they wouldn't call it "authentic shaolin".  But remember, it isn't the individual running the school who invented that story, it's passed down from the founder.  If you want to teach his system and get him to promote your students, you need to tell his story.  He says he's the "grandmaster of shaolin", so that's what they say, too.  In his world, he is the grandmaster...it's just the shaolin he's talking about isn't the same shaolin that everyone else is thinking of *lol*.  He calls his system "shaolin", and he is the grandmaster of it.  It's not the same as the shaolin temple.  I'm told there's a lot of that sort of thing going on in Indonesian martial arts.
  I agree, that part I never liked either.  It's part of the reason I didn't stay with them (I could have kept with it and maybe even become an instructor in the system).  The material is real, Jiang Rong Qiao's classical bagua form, Chen Man Ching's 37 posture Yang form, 24 posture simplified tai chi, 4 roads of Hua fist.  Basic long fist is the foundation, with 30 rows or "short forms" a bit like tan tui.  Some of the forms are unique and really aren't found anywhere else (that I know of), like the black tiger and bird forms (which have a southern shaolin sort of feel).  The weapons are traditional (except for nunchaku).  The basic staff form is one invented either by the founder or his teacher, after that they have a few more traditional ones.  There's spear, dao, jian, and guan dao which all have quite good forms.  
  In Indonesia they call it "kuntao", it's Chinese martial arts passed down in immigrant communities, where all sorts of styles get taught and mixed together into a new style.


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## clfsean (Feb 18, 2009)

Eh... it is what it is.

If you're looking for something for a good physical workout, some self defense, cheap prices... you've got the right spot. Mind you though... you won't be learning a TCMA. It really should be called a family style at this point. There are components of TCMA in it. However it has been changed (who knows... not going there) to the point of not being the proper training methods for what's being taught. Rather the methods that bind the whole system together are used for everything.

If you're looking for a traditional CMA that has all of the above & more, you're barking up the wrong tree.

If you want a TCMA in the NY/NJ area there are plenty to choose from.


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## jim777 (Feb 18, 2009)

clfsean said:


> Eh... it is what it is.
> 
> <snipped a bit>
> 
> ...



I'm really just looking for a 'close to my office' self defense/MA school that is cheaper than the one I currently go to (~$1800 year) and isn't complete BS. While it's the worst possible school filter, 'close to the office' is the m,ost important for me. I do have another MA that I study as my primary MA. 
The 'calls itself Shaolin - but isn't really Shaolin' actually doesn't bother me. There is a rather famous TCMA school very close to me (and this place) that teaches NOTHING from what I've seen and heard, other than front snaps and standing in horse stances. I put 9 months in there and I don't need any of that either! I'm not looking for something to put on my resume, I guess is a way to put it. The price and nearness to me attracted me, and while it looked like a fishy back story the instruction itself didn't seem to be complete BS, so I may try it for a year and see what its like. I won't be telling people I'm Kwai Chang or anything 

But I do want to let everyone know I really appreciate the thoughts and responses, it has turned out to be more info than I would have hoped for. This place definitely comes through


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## Ninebird8 (Feb 18, 2009)

He mentions Sin The, which leads me to believe they are associated with the Shaolin Do group, which I think many have spoken before. Looking at the photos, two things are interesting: for a Shaolin school, they use tae kwon do like uniforms including the belts, and their techniques are not traditional animal or Shaolin techniques at all (in my 32 years, one of my three masters is a Wudan Northern Shaolin master from the temple in Hong Kong under Abbot Wang Fui Yen, and my other teachers have traditional Shaolin backgrounds from Ying Jow (Leung Shum) and Jeff Bolt (Dr. Yang Jwing ming). I agree it may be a good exercise, but I am a little bit skeptical given what I saw in person in Atlanta a couple of other locales with these people. Allan Lee is probably closer to the truth in NYC for Shaolin, or Shi Min Yang, although more Shaolin wushu.


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## jim777 (Feb 18, 2009)

They mention on their site that they use gis because they're cheap, and they want to keep costs low. They also mention what they teach is Shaolin-do by way of Indonesia as well. Again, not "true" Shaolin, but certainly not hidden either.
I did actually study with one of the Alan Lee's in NY back in 1980, and it was a complete waste of time. I do believe there are two in NYC (Allan and Alan, possibly?) but I am not looking for a traditional Chinese school or a Shaolin school. I am looking to learn something close ot my office, and not waste my time. I don't care if it is a system with a long heritage or not. My current style came into existence in 1976


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## clfsean (Feb 19, 2009)

jim777 said:


> They mention on their site that they use gis because they're cheap, and they want to keep costs low. They also mention what they teach is Shaolin-do by way of Indonesia as well. Again, not "true" Shaolin, but certainly not hidden either.



Not so much... 



jim777 said:


> I do believe there are two in NYC (Allan and Alan, possibly?) but I am not looking for a traditional Chinese school or a Shaolin school.



Then why look for a CMA school at all??



jim777 said:


> I am looking to learn something close ot my office, and not waste my time. I don't care if it is a system with a long heritage or not.



Long heritage or pedigree has nothing to do with it. Honesty about background & disclosure on where certain things came from has everything to do with it. Proper training methods for things they teach has everything to do with it.... et cetera ad nauseum... 



jim777 said:


> My current style came into existence in 1976



Well, then you'll probably be ok then there. Go for it & if you're not after a "real" CMA school, then you found what you need.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2009)

jim777 said:


> I'm really just looking for a 'close to my office' self defense/MA school that is cheaper than the one I currently go to (~$1800 year) and isn't complete BS. While it's the worst possible school filter, 'close to the office' is the m,ost important for me. I do have another MA that I study as my primary MA.
> The 'calls itself Shaolin - but isn't really Shaolin' actually doesn't bother me. There is a rather famous TCMA school very close to me (and this place) that teaches NOTHING from what I've seen and heard, other than front snaps and standing in horse stances. I put 9 months in there and I don't need any of that either! I'm not looking for something to put on my resume, I guess is a way to put it. The price and nearness to me attracted me, and while it looked like a fishy back story the instruction itself didn't seem to be complete BS, so I may try it for a year and see what its like. I won't be telling people I'm Kwai Chang or anything
> 
> But I do want to let everyone know I really appreciate the thoughts and responses, it has turned out to be more info than I would have hoped for. This place definitely comes through


 
Sounds  like your mind is already made up, enjoy the training



jim777 said:


> They mention on their site that they use gis because they're cheap, and they want to keep costs low.


 
Hmmm..... most CMA schools or at least the one I have been associated with, don't require any special uniform at all, show up in street cloths or sweats and learn. That would seem to me to be cheaper yet. The only time there was ever a uniform was for a demo and that was only my first sifu.


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## AceHBK (Feb 19, 2009)

Their story about Gi's is rather odd to me.


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## jim777 (Feb 19, 2009)

I don't know how this got lost in my posts, but I was not looking for a CMA school, just ANY SCHOOL AT ALL that wasn't a complete waste of time and was close to my office. Someplace that taught some flavor of self defense that wasn't $100's a month. Those were my ONLY requirements. I only posted this here because it seemed to be some flavor of CMA, that's it. I didn't think the TKD or karate guys would care on way or the other.  If there was a Combat Hapkido school around me I wouldn't consider this school even at free tuition.

I know there are "real" CMA schools in Manhattan. I know there are real schools of all sorts within say...an hour's driving distance. That isn't lost on me, it's just irrelevant. I may not even have the time to get over and actually check this place out, never mind actually sign up and attend.
Again, thanks for the responses and feedback guys.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2009)

jim777 said:


> *I don't know how this got lost in my posts, but I was not looking for a CMA school*, *just ANY SCHOOL AT ALL* that wasn't a complete waste of time and was close to my office. Someplace that taught some flavor of self defense that wasn't $100's a month. Those were my ONLY requirements. I only posted this here because it seemed to be some flavor of CMA, that's it. I didn't think the TKD or karate guys would care on way or the other. If there was a Combat Hapkido school around me I wouldn't consider this school even at free tuition.
> 
> I know there are "real" CMA schools in Manhattan. I know there are real schools of all sorts within say...an hour's driving distance. That isn't lost on me, it's just irrelevant. I may not even have the time to get over and actually check this place out, never mind actually sign up and attend.
> Again, thanks for the responses and feedback guys.


 

Well for starters it calls itself the "Shaolin Center" you put "Shaolin Center" in your post title and you posted this in *Chinese Martial Arts - General* section and us TCMA guys sometimes take tradition a bit to damn seriously... this just might have something to do with it...


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## jim777 (Feb 19, 2009)

I know and understand that, that was why I posted it here. If I had happened upon a judo school, I would have asked my "does this look like a waste of time" question in the appropriate forum for that. In retrospect, I suppose I would have gotten responses talking about judo uniforms and proper judo heritage there as well. But, coming from a TKD background, where we all know the written 'official' history is almost entirely complete fabrication, I forgot that asking about a CMA school in the CMA section would lead down the path it did.
My apologies to all those offended, by either the quesstions, questioner, or the school. I now have the information I sought.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 19, 2009)

jim777 said:


> I know and understand that, that was why I posted it here. If I had happened upon a judo school, I would have asked my "does this look like a waste of time" question in the appropriate forum for that. In retrospect, I suppose I would have gotten responses talking about judo uniforms and proper judo heritage there as well. But, coming from a TKD background, where we all know the written 'official' history is almost entirely complete fabrication, I forgot that asking about a CMA school in the CMA section would lead down the path it did.
> My apologies to all those offended, by either the quesstions, questioner, or the school. I now have the information I sought.


 
No offense taken and no apology necessary

If you go to this school let us know what you think :asian:


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## Ninebird8 (Feb 19, 2009)

I have to admit I rarely see someone admit they want something fast and quick, and if it is legitimate that is okay too....LOL! I meant Allan Lee, not Alan Lee. When I studied in NYC under Sigung Leung Shum, that was a golden age for CMA in NYC. I am sorry if you did not get the answer you wanted, but most on this site will give you recommendations about real or legit schools, especially Shaolin, which is a term easily bandied about and frankly disrespected today. The "cheap" excuse is funny, considering a Shaolin Buddhist robe or a traditional uniform is between $45 and $90, not too expensive. And the sashes are usually cheaper than the belts. If cost is a factor, go to Bok Le Tai or another shop off of Mott St. and buy a uniform cheaply, purchase a video, and learn Shaolin the really cheap way.


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## jim777 (Feb 20, 2009)

Ninebird8 said:


> I have to admit I rarely see someone admit they want something fast and quick, and if it is legitimate that is okay too....LOL!


 
Last post in this thread for me. 

I didn't say that. I said I wanted something that would give me a benefit for my time, not waste it. I am a director in an investment bank, and have a very long commute. What little time I have for myself is valuable. I wanted something close by, as even a few miles away could be 20 minutes in each direction, leaving me perhaps 30 minutes for classes on _my_ schedule. And no one teaches on _my_ schedule.



Ninebird8 said:


> I meant Allan Lee, not Alan Lee.


 
Understood. I myself studied at Alan Lee's for about 10 months back in 1980, and this definitely had an effect on my opinion of available CMA training in NYC. For that 10 months, we ran in place, stood in horse stances, then ran in place some more. Very 'rinse, lather, repeat'. When I eventually asked one of the instructors when we would actually learn SOMETHING, I was told "about two years, we like to weed out the people who won't stick around". _That_ was a waste of time, and what I want to avoid now. Someplace actually teaching something I wouldn't write off right off the bat because it is taught differently elsewhere, or even everywhere. Further, being a student at "4-H Karate School" I came here (to this thread and forum) without any built in biases against places due to their names, whether that be "New York City Shaolin Center" or "Joey Chips' House of *** Kicking". Patently naive of me in retrospect, but there you have it. I live and on good days learn as well 



Ninebird8 said:


> When I studied in NYC under Sigung Leung Shum, that was a golden age for CMA in NYC. I am sorry if you did not get the answer you wanted, but most on this site will give you recommendations about real or legit schools, especially Shaolin, which is a term easily bandied about and frankly disrespected today.


 
From the outside looking in, "Shaolin" is a completely meaningless term, overused to the point where it may as well be ignored. Just sayin'.
But, _I did_ get the answer I wanted, and I got it in the third post of the thread from someone familiar with the system. No need to be sorry 



Ninebird8 said:


> The "cheap" excuse is funny, considering a Shaolin Buddhist robe or a traditional uniform is between $45 and $90, not too expensive. And the sashes are usually cheaper than the belts.


 
I saw it more as explanation than excuse; part of the backstory, as it were. I would have assumed from the website that gis were originally cheaper or possibly all that was available when they first started using them in Indonesia or wherever, but, I don't honestly care too much about that sort of thing. 99% of the MA schools out there in the Americas want you to wear something they pick, whether it have frog buttons or V necks or patches or come in special colors. If that helps them pay their rent, and fosters some esprit de corps among the students, a one time uniform fee won't hurt most people. For me, a person with a number of gis already, this would have been free. I don't need what I already have.



Ninebird8 said:


> If cost is a factor, go to Bok Le Tai or another shop off of Mott St. and buy a uniform cheaply, purchase a video, and learn Shaolin the really cheap way.


 
While I myself am not in the category, that would certainly be an available (if not completely viable) option for anyone in NY who would seek out CMA training as cheaply as possible. I will myself likely skip this school altogether and go with a Hapkido school I have found nearby instead. It meets my requirements of affordability, nearness to my office, not complete BS, and I already have some Hapkido training to build on.

(Little secret - I found this NYC Shaolin Center because they are part of the Google Ads on the top of every page on this very site. If not for the ad right here on MartialTalk, I never would have found or even heard of it.  )

Once again, thanks to all who responded to my query. I honestly didn't expect any responses, so this was all very enlightening for me.

jim


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## CrushingFist (Feb 27, 2009)

$420 for a year is the cheapest u can find in NYC nowadays. 
But it just doesn't make sense why he's wearing a Karate uniform.


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## pete (Feb 27, 2009)

CrushingFist said:
			
		

> $420 for a year is the cheapest u can find in NYC nowadays.


 
Maybe, Maybe Not... 

I do not know them, so 'quality/value' aside... one should also find out if there are:

- membership fees
- association dues
- 'belt' or testing charges
- classes that are 'not included' within the annual charge

and... how often are YOU going to attend classes! if you are going to attend once per week, or your job includes a good amount of travel, you may be paying for classes you are not taking. Some teachers charging per class may be a better deal for you.

also, i'd question why the annual rate is soooo much less than the monthly... do they have a high attrition rate? or are they cashflow deficient? 

again i do not know them so 'quality' aside, these are the consumer type inquiries i'd make.

pete


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## CrushingFist (Feb 27, 2009)

Thanks Pete,

I've sent the place an email with those questions as well with some others I had in mind.


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## CrushingFist (Mar 2, 2009)

> The full answer to your question about uniforms is actually answered on our FAQ's page here.
> 
> As for the fees, the membership fees for unlimited regular classes are only what are listed on the site.  There are testing fees, all of which are very affordable (for example the test to from White to Yellow Belt is $44) and listed in our training manual.  We also do have all day special workshops once or twice a month that are not included in the regular class costs - these are all $60 for the full day of training when you sign up online.  Finally, the annual rate is much less than the monthly with the intention of making training in Shao-lin as affordable and accessible as possible for students who have a long term commitment to the art.
> 
> If you have any other questions please don't hesitate to ask.  Otherwise, feel free to come check out the school during class hours to meet me and either take a free trial class or observe our training!



Hi, I did read everything. 

I am still not very convinced as online I seen so many black belts, and seeing karate stances, strikes etc. 

Do you guys use chinese terms or indonesian language terms? 



> Thanks for taking the time to thoroughly read the info on the site!  We use Chinese terms for all of our material.
> 
> I think that best way to address your concerns is for you to visit the school so you can see how we train in person.  That would also be a good opportunity for you to ask any questions you may have after having a look at our material.
> 
> ...


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## clfsean (Mar 3, 2009)

Standard party line responses from any big chain MA school.

A couple of years ago I did some cold calling of local MA schools in my area to get an idea of the current competative pricing scales. Most smaller schools would give the prices over the phone PDQ. The chained schools instead countered with a typical sales pitch "so what are YOU looking for" or "how much time have YOU got to _invest_ in your MA future", etc... 

Nothing too shocking there.


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## Kymus (Mar 5, 2009)

Ok, I don't know how sensitive of a topic it is here, so I'm going to try to say this as honestly (#1) and polite (#2) as possible....

NYC Shaolin Center is not what most would consider Shaolin (like what Shi Yan Ming and Shi Guo Lin teach..). It's appropriate name is "Shaolin-Do".

If you are not aware, I'll fill you in on some details.

There is a very big controversy over Shaolin-Do vs Shaolin and many will tell you that Shaolin-Do (SD) is phoney-baloney as far as Kung Fu goes. Most of the students I've spoken to (through forums) are convinced that Shaolin Do is the real Shaolin art and the Shaolin (and perhaps Kung Fu in general) currently practiced by monks and others is nothing more than Wushu. I dunno who told them this, but lots of them from different schools all say the same thing. IMO, that theory is bollocks, but that's just me.

Moving on..

SD claims to have started 2 generations ago from a master who supposedly learned from all the Shaolin Temples, including the mythical Southern temple in Fujian. So, SD says that it is the most rounded style and that they teach all the arts of Shaolin. The current master points to some stone errected at the Shaolin Temple in China that says that he's a 10th Degree black belt or whatever in Shaolin, but again, it's speculated (at least) that anyone with enough money could get the same thing in their honor that says whatever they want.

The legitimacy of Shaoling Do has been disputed and some have charged that the history Shaolin Do gives does not match up in any way with Chinese history. The forms sure don't look like anything that a Chinese Martial Arts practitioner would consider Kung Fu, but keep in mind that SD says that what CMAs practice is really the phoney Kung Fu and theirs is the legitimate version. I'll tell you that I think their forms look like Karate trying to practice bad Kung Fu, but I've never sparred anyone that practices it nor do I know anyone who has. 

My advice: stay away from it. The lineage is shakey, most of the students sound brainwashed (though I'm not trying to imply that the teachers actually brainwash students), and the forms look god aweful even ones done by the master himself.

This is a BIG dead horse that's been beaten into the ground over at the Kung Fu Magazine forums and if you're interested in learning more, I'd go look there since you will find posts from those who practice it and those who think it's BS. Although, most of the discussions you will see were not exactly friendly. Most SD people don't like most Anti-SD people and vice-versa for a number of reasons. You'll also find some folks who used to train in SD and now personally feel that they were fooled and wasted their time.


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## CrushingFist (Mar 22, 2009)

Thanks so much
we should make this a sticky! for fake KF ?


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## clfsean (Mar 22, 2009)

Nah... there's enough info out there about SD (pro & con) that a person can make the determination what works for them easily enough. 

If SD does work for them... rock & roll but understand there's some questions involved.
If SD doesn't work for them... rock & roll & keep searching.


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