# "Non-Sport" Grappling



## dungeonworks (Oct 7, 2007)

I understand Judo, Brazillian JiuJitsu, and the Aikijitsu's are great styles, but what styles are out there that do not adhere to any set rules or skill sets?  Maybe something that would/may be considered "dirty Judo/BJJ"?  Just curious and thanks in advance.

Gary


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## Ybot (Oct 7, 2007)

I don't completely understand what you are asking for.  Neither Judo, nor Jiu-Jitsu are restricted to a rule set when it comes to defending yourself.  It's just that these styles restrict themselves to teaching the grappling aspect of fighting, and tend to only practice skills which can be safely practiced at full force against a resisting opponent.

There is an unstated belief in these two arts that it is better to practice techniques that are proven effective through training them for real, than to practice theoretical killing/mangling techniques that you would never get a chance to practice for real.

I'm not sure this is the answer you were looking for though, cause I'm not positively sure what you were trying to ask.


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 7, 2007)

I must second that I'm not totally sure what you're asking for.  I've personally never come across a style that has absolutely no rule or skill set.  That is why they're called systems.  Perhaps could inform us more of what your goals are.  ​


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## tellner (Oct 8, 2007)

Every grappling style I've heard of has some sort of skill set. Otherwise there wouldn't be any skills  One characteristic of non-sport grappling is the way breaking is done. In other forms on goes for a pin or a submission. The idea is to show that you have control or have dominated the fight to the point where you _could_ hurt the other guy. The more combative forms don't look for the lock. They tend to break something and move on. Very often the break is done with the help of gravity so that by the time you hit the ground something is disabled. This seems to be particularly true with neck breaks.


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## dungeonworks (Oct 8, 2007)

Sorry.  I was meaning something that would have tactics that are more street oriented.   I understand they all can be used for self defense, to my *limited* knowledge, they are more sport and less street in nature.  For example, a guy goes for an armbar when you are on your back.  Biting his thigh is against the rules, so a practioner is likely to ignore training other options available such as biting or other counters.  What are some dirty ways to get out of it?  How about a triangle maybe even getting out of guard (knee the groin?...no cups worn in the street.) in general?    Are their any arts that have these "dirty" elements of this in their grappling?

Sorry if the question seems stupid but as I said before, my grappling is still quite embryonic in it's development. LOL

Thank you
Gary


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 8, 2007)

From my personal experience, it's not so much the style you'd be looking for but who's teaching it.  Granted there are, as you mentioned strictly sport grappling, where they focus more on grappling with a gi and how to properly and 'cleanly' escape techniques.  My BJJ instructor grew up in the streets of Brazil where he had to fight many many street fights.  Quite often when we're working on a technique, he will show up some 'dirty' techniques ie. if you had to you could bite here or strike there or what have you.  As I said I'm not sure if there is a particular style out there that teaches exactly what you're looking for, it would more be the way the instructor is teaching it....hope that somewhat answers your question....​


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## Marvin (Oct 8, 2007)

Hey Dungeonworks (your name sounds familiar), I like to make sure that a person can get out of a position without adding the "street" stuff. Then if needed, add the dirt after you are in a superior position. If you were in a bad bad position and tried the eye boink or sack yank and it didn't work, you'd make a bad position much worse. As far as grappling techniques for self defence, my ideas are:
1. Don't continue to fight from the bottom, if possible. Work your sweeps and stand ups.
2. If on top, don't go full mount. Go side control or knee on stomach, neck or skull.
3. As soon as possible. Run!


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## dungeonworks (Oct 9, 2007)

Marvin said:


> Hey Dungeonworks (your name sounds familiar)...



Hey Marvin, it's me Gary...I trained with you for a little bit a couple years ago!


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## Marvin (Oct 9, 2007)

dungeonworks said:


> Hey Marvin, it's me Gary...I trained with you for a little bit a couple years ago!


Hey Gary!!
Welcome!


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## dungeonworks (Oct 9, 2007)

Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu said:


> From my personal experience, it's not so much the style you'd be looking for but who's teaching it.  Granted there are, as you mentioned strictly sport grappling, where they focus more on grappling with a gi and how to properly and 'cleanly' escape techniques.  My BJJ instructor grew up in the streets of Brazil where he had to fight many many street fights.  Quite often when we're working on a technique, he will show up some 'dirty' techniques ie. if you had to you could bite here or strike there or what have you.  As I said I'm not sure if there is a particular style out there that teaches exactly what you're looking for, it would more be the way the instructor is teaching it....hope that somewhat answers your question....​



That's pretty much what I was curious about and Marvin answered what I was wondering as well...but what I was wondering was if their was a style or curriculum solely based on this line of thinking rather than strategy from for a matted surface or octagon or ring.

In my opinion, the ground is the last place I would want to go and pull guard against a stranger in the street/bar/mall...ect.  The reality of going to the ground is quite evident, especially in the winter time here in Michigan where icy conditions may dictate that for you.  I also believe grappling with the gi on, as much as I HATE wearing a gi, has legit self defense use here in MI where we often have to bundle up in heavy winter jackets for 25% of the year....but back on topic.  From my limited exposure to the ground fighting, I have seen opportunities where a blade, pencil, even car keys *could *change things.  I just didn't know if something was around that focused on those things.  Certainly one could ad-lib on the ground with a bite or gouge or "check of the oil" so to speak LOL.

Thanks
Gary


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## dungeonworks (Oct 9, 2007)

Marvin said:


> Hey Gary!!
> Welcome!



Thanks!  Great forum here...glad I found it!


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## Andrew Green (Oct 9, 2007)

Competition rules are for competition, anyone that has trained in any of those styles for any time period is also going to know techniques and tactics not allowed in competition.

Some schools focus more on competition rules, other more on no rules fighting, find one that suits you.  But most styles have a competitive format, and rarely does it pain the whole picture of what goes on in training.


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## rocketrich (Oct 9, 2007)

It has been my experience that sport guys try to go to the ground too quick. Without looking for multiple opponents or weapons.


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## Kwan Jang (Dec 5, 2007)

The advantage of an emphasis on "sport grappling" is that you are getting a lot of "live" training against resisting opponents. If you can get and keep superior position on your opponent, you can keep him from "fouling" you with "dirty" techniques regardless if it's a sport match or a real fight. Also, you are going to be much more effective at being a "dirty fighter" than someone who doesn't train against resisting opponents and only works from theory or just drills technique with compliant partners.

On the other hand, unless you guard against it, there is a very human tendency to overlook both your and your opponents vulnerabilities if you get TOO acustomed to a certian rule set. How many Olympic-style TKD fighters are so used to their rule sets that they are no longer effective at protecting their face/head? How many are less than effective punchers? Obviously, there are many who are good at both, but there are enough that have slipped into this trap that it does develop the stereotype.

I was once working out with Frank Shamrock in a class on groundfighting for the street. Frank is a very intellegent and effective fighter, but I noticed he was suggesting attacking the midsection when the groin was open, so I asked him about it. He reponded that "in competition, we wear steel cups, so we don't bother attacking the groin.". I pointed out to him that we were working on street self defense and not NHB/MMA. "Yeah, that would work well, let's change that". Being an intellegent fighter, he quickly recognized the advantage and we went on from there.

I teach MMA and though we do work all three, we mostly focus on stand up striking early on in the curriculum. As students progress, we incorperate more submission grappling into the training. At advanced levels they add in the ground striking (i.e. ground and pound). When the striking is added to the grappling, they really begin to see where the holes were in their defense and their offense. If your position is really good and you have great control due to superior position, it really matters little if they can strike (or "foul"). If your posistion is mediocre, you quickly discover how vulnerable you really are.


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## TheArtofDave (Jan 27, 2008)

I would believe Combat Sambo would be a style he was interested in. That is if he could find a place that teaches it in his area. I will have to go to Knoxville in order to learn Sambo as thats the closest to my area. 

In all forms of martial arts though you can use them to be combat oriented. They don't have to be sport oritiented. It just depends on whether the practicioner intends. For training and defense, or for sport and to stay fit for example.


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 11, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> I understand Judo, Brazillian JiuJitsu, and the Aikijitsu's are great styles, but what styles are out there that do not adhere to any set rules or skill sets? Maybe something that would/may be considered "dirty Judo/BJJ"? Just curious and thanks in advance.
> 
> Gary


 
Before any "dirty trick" will work for you, you have to learn to wrestle FIRST.

If you only know "dirty tricks" and you come up against a good solid wrestler, he's going to put a hurt on you.

Why?

Because you have to have skill at wrestling before any stupid dirty trick is going to work for you.

So, after you bite him, or gouge him, or grab his groin - he's going to be pissed.  And guess what? He can outwrestle you AND use dirty tricks as well (and probably knows a lot more of them from his experience wrestling..)


It's kind of like this. You see some guy so big you know you can't defeat him.  So go bite him.

Now there is a guy you cannot defeat, who you have also really pissed off.

Really bad idea.


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## Odin (Feb 11, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> I understand Judo, Brazillian JiuJitsu, and the Aikijitsu's are great styles, but what styles are out there that do not adhere to any set rules or skill sets? Maybe something that would/may be considered "dirty Judo/BJJ"? Just curious and thanks in advance.
> 
> Gary


 
All of the above..........just when someone taps dont let go


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## joemoplata (Feb 15, 2008)

tellner said:


> Every grappling style I've heard of has some sort of skill set. Otherwise there wouldn't be any skills  One characteristic of non-sport grappling is the way breaking is done. In other forms on goes for a pin or a submission. The idea is to show that you have control or have dominated the fight to the point where you _could_ hurt the other guy. The more combative forms don't look for the lock. They tend to break something and move on. Very often the break is done with the help of gravity so that by the time you hit the ground something is disabled. This seems to be particularly true with neck breaks.


Are you being serious?  

The whole concept of the tap is that I am going to do the move UNTIL you tap.  If you don't tap, it's going to break.  This ensures that if you need to, you know EXACTLY how to do the move against a resisting opponent because you have done it hundreds of times.

You cannot practice breaking someone'e neck.  You cannot tell me that you know that it will work because you've never had to make it work.  It's not that it couldn't happen, it's just that you have never had to make it actually happen and therefore you cannot rely on it in a self defense situation.  

I had a newbie Marine come into a class one day and ask me when we sparred if he could do "Kill Moves".  Without snickering (that's important there, it shows good restraing on my part I think) I asked him what an example of a kill move was.  He said, and I'm being serious here... he said, "If I get one hand on top your head and the other on your chin I could break your neck".  I said (still without snickering, mind you) "I tell you what, if you get one hand on top of my head and one under my chin for more than 1 second I will tap and you win the match".  I proceeded to armbar him like 4 times in a row everytime he tried to grab my head in my guard.  

Also, you don't really have to teach someone how to eye gouge or fish hook.  These are instinctual defense responses in a life or death situation.  They are also difficult to practice and therefore not 100% reliable as a means of defense.  Not that they shouldn't be mentioned, but having a class on how to stick your fingers in someone's eye is worthless to the practicioner.


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## joemoplata (Feb 15, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Before any "dirty trick" will work for you, you have to learn to wrestle FIRST.
> 
> If you only know "dirty tricks" and you come up against a good solid wrestler, he's going to put a hurt on you.
> 
> ...


 
Brilliant post, I agree 100%.


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## kailat (Feb 15, 2008)

The Perfect Exapme is Paul Vunaks PFS Kino Mutai response. 





 
 Check it out.. let know your response?


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