# Best of next generation?



## guy b (Oct 6, 2016)

Who is the practitioner in your system, besides the main guy, that you feel has the best understanding and ability to make it work?

Any video would be interesting to see.


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## KPM (Oct 6, 2016)

Why don't you go first?  That is how you really stimulate a discussion and not give the impression that you are setting people up for another "gotcha" kind of thread.  Show us a video of who you think the current best guy in your system is and maybe others will then be encouraged to do the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 6, 2016)

guy b said:


> Who is the practitioner in your system, besides the main guy, that you feel has the best understanding and ability to make it work?
> 
> Any video would be interesting to see.


Hmm...when you say "system", do you mean within an association, or across the art?


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## guy b (Oct 7, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Hmm...when you say "system", do you mean within an association, or across the art?



I believe that different associations of "wing chun" have mostly diverged into different systems. So within a family or association would probably be a good place to start


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## guy b (Oct 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> Why don't you go first?  That is how you really stimulate a discussion and not give the impression that you are setting people up for another "gotcha" kind of thread.  Show us a video of who you think the current best guy in your system is and maybe others will then be encouraged to do the same.



I think Michael Kurth is very good and very traditional. 






Sean Wood his student is also very good and taking an interesting direction with MMA focused training






I like Selcuk Donmez who is a student of PB teaching in Essen. His VT is very clean





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=903587629671588
			




I like Akis Kounelakis also a student of PB teaching in Herkalion Greece





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153992097544474
			








__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153994279564474


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## guy b (Oct 7, 2016)

I like Wang Zhi Peng, although he has added some other elements


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## Callen (Oct 8, 2016)

I like that you added Wang Zhi Peng to your line-up. There are many talented 1st Gen WSLVT students, and IMO he is one of them.


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## Juany118 (Oct 9, 2016)

I would say Sifu Keith Mazza (closed door student of Grand Master William Cheung), the problem is he keeps videos to a minimum as he not only teaches Wing Chun but also is a Subject Matter Expert for the Department of Justice in Combatives and so he, understandably, tries to keep videos limited because his "day job" is Combatives, both WC/martial arts related and firearms.  Now I know TWC and it's founder is a controversial topic in many WC/VT circles, but it works and isn't that what MA's is about?


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## guy b (Oct 10, 2016)

KPM said:


> Why don't you go first?  That is how you really stimulate a discussion and not give the impression that you are setting people up for another "gotcha" kind of thread.  Show us a video of who you think the current best guy in your system is and maybe others will then be encouraged to do the same.



Hi KPM, are you encouraged to add some people who you feel are doing a good job of taking your system forward?


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## guy b (Oct 10, 2016)

Callen said:


> I like that you added Wang Zhi Peng to your line-up. There are many talented 1st Gen WSLVT students, and IMO he is one of them.



Please tell me who you think is doing a good job of taking the system forward?


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## KPM (Oct 10, 2016)

guy b said:


> Hi KPM, are you encouraged to add some people who you feel are doing a good job of taking your system forward?



Pin Sun Wing Chun in the west is a very small group.   I think Jim Roselando has done a great job of taking the system forward here in the US.  I understand that Pin Sun has experienced something of a "surge" in popularity in China over the past decades with multiple schools springing up in Sha Ping.  A friend in China tells me that the Pin Sun guys tend to dominate the local tournament competitions.  I hope to visit Ku Lo and Sha Ping at some point, but don't know anyone in that area yet.  There might be some really good people!  Fung Chun's sons Fung Leung and Fung Keung are active and teaching as far as I know.  Would love the opportunity to spend time with either of them!


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## guy b (Oct 10, 2016)

KPM said:


> Pin Sun Wing Chun in the west is a very small group.   I think Jim Roselando has done a great job of taking the system forward here in the US.  I understand that Pin Sun has experienced something of a "surge" in popularity in China over the past decades with multiple schools springing up in Sha Ping.  A friend in China tells me that the Pin Sun guys tend to dominate the local tournament competitions.  I hope to visit Ku Lo and Sha Ping at some point, but don't know anyone in that area yet.  There might be some really good people!  Fung Chun's sons Fung Leung and Fung Keung are active and teaching as far as I know.  Would love the opportunity to spend time with either of them!



Interesting to see the system, thanks. Do you train with this group?

Do you have any footage of Fung Chun's sons?


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## dudewingchun (Oct 10, 2016)

I think Alan Orr is the best


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## Callen (Oct 10, 2016)

guy b said:


> Please tell me who you think is doing a good job of taking the system forward?



IMO there are several WSLVT practitioners that are doing a good job taking the system forward. In fact, I know few that aren't making a positive contribution. I try to avoid singling out practitioners of my system as being better than others. Many of them are my personal friends and training partners. It would be like picking my favorite brother, which I would never do.


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## guy b (Oct 10, 2016)

Are you a Gary Lam student?


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2016)

Lately I'm increasingly of the frame of mind where I don't think WC/VT/WT can meaningfully move forward without some method of testing results like you see with competitive arts. I'm talking "pressure testing" on a large scale inclusive of all lineages. This is one of the things I like about what Alan Orr has been trying to do.

On the other hand I don't want to see WC/VT/WT reduced to a "sporting" method. This kind of pressure testing can only be part of the picture. Still, if we had such a testing method, we could finally get past the "my way is better than your way" frame of mind and objectively see what emerges as most practical from all lineages.


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## Danny T (Oct 10, 2016)

I am not a G. Lam student but I do have two of my senior students who have gone to his school in California several times a year for two years and have received certifications of some level under him as well...they have not continued under him.


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## guy b (Oct 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> Lately I'm increasingly of the frame of mind where I don't think WC/VT/WT can meaningfully move forward without some method of testing results like you see with competitive arts. I'm talking "pressure testing" on a large scale inclusive of all lineages. This is one of the things I like about what Alan Orr has been trying to do.
> 
> On the other hand I don't want to see WC/VT/WT reduced to a "sporting" method. This kind of pressure testing can only be part of the picture. Still, if we had such a testing method, we could finally get past the "my way is better than your way" frame of mind and objectively see what emerges as most practical from all lineages.



I agree with your wish for VT not to become a sport. I'm not sure I agree that inter lineage competition would be a good idea because all competitions involve compromise and all would seek the kind of competition that favoured them most. Competitions and other ways of testing do already exist and I think it is a good idea to make use of these.

I think that not being as open as some systems is actually a strength of VT, because it allows more selective teaching and often better, closer student teacher relationships.


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## Juany118 (Oct 10, 2016)

geezer said:


> Lately I'm increasingly of the frame of mind where I don't think WC/VT/WT can meaningfully move forward without some method of testing results like you see with competitive arts. I'm talking "pressure testing" on a large scale inclusive of all lineages. This is one of the things I like about what Alan Orr has been trying to do.
> 
> On the other hand I don't want to see WC/VT/WT reduced to a "sporting" method. This kind of pressure testing can only be part of the picture. Still, if we had such a testing method, we could finally get past the "my way is better than your way" frame of mind and objectively see what emerges as most practical from all lineages.


I agree.  It's one of the reasons I like Sifu Mazza.  He has personally engaged in pressure testing as have two of his students.  You can find videos of Provisional Master Jerry Devone fighting at MUSU a few years ago and my Sifu used WC operationally in LE.

I also don't see an issue with cross WC/WT/VT  competition.  The essence of the arts (manner of strikes etc) are basically identical.  Its not like back in the day in MMA when you had a BJJ guy trying to get the rules maximized to benefit him vs a striker, as an example.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 11, 2016)

I like the Sean Wood video, and I also like Alan Orr.

I have trained in WC for about 20 years now, and I see a lot of people come and go. In my opinion, a lack of good WC fighters representing in MMA is NOT because we use techniques that are against the rules, but because a lot of people who went to the same WC school as me had no interest in training for the ring. I was one of the few people who supplemented his WC training with a workout routine...not that I was training for the ring either, but I figured if I got confronted by 5 guys in a bar, I should be better at running than at WC. (I mean, I would need to be good enough to knock one of them down to create an escape route, but there's no way in hell I would stick around for a 5-on-1 fight.)

Some people think if you exclude certain attacks from WC (like you would have to do if you wanted to be in a tournament), that you are no longer doing "true" WC. I don't really agree with that.

Now that I think about it, I think that is a thought that could start another thread completely.


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## guy b (Oct 13, 2016)

Anyone else got any good VT videos? Doesn't have to be your group, just anything you think is really good would be interesting


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## Lobo66 (Oct 13, 2016)

Lars Ender has a good group going in the south of Germany.
He also organizes the Delta Cup open martial arts tournament every year, where students can get competitioin experience against other WC people and MMA, MT, boxing, etc.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 13, 2016)

Or there is the Ecole BASE in France.  They train WSL VT and Gracie BJJ :


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## Vajramusti (Oct 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> Anyone else got any good VT videos? Doesn't have to be your group, just anything you think is really good would be interesting


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The three stooges have some videos that are somewhat better than what is often put up on the internet.


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## guy b (Oct 13, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The three stooges have some videos that are somewhat better than what is often put up on the internet.



Are you going to post a good clip in order to help change that sad statistic?


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## Lobo66 (Oct 13, 2016)

Hello Vajramusti,
Hope you're not refering to me as one of the "stooges".  Don't see why that's necessary.  
Why don't you post something that you find worthy?  Maybe, just maybe, it could start some constructive conversation.


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## guy b (Oct 13, 2016)

Come on Joy, tell us which clips you liked and why. Even if you don't want to post one yourself it would be good to discuss


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## Eric_H (Oct 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> Who is the practitioner in your system, besides the main guy, that you feel has the best understanding and ability to make it work?
> 
> Any video would be interesting to see.



Was hoping that would be me. Sadly, the universe/god/fate/genetics have had different plans.

The best guys in my org don't do video. Outside of my association, though we often spar about what's WC and what isn't, I genuinely like what Alan Orr has done. That he listens to that fruitcake in San Jose though surprises the hell out of me.


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## KPM (Oct 13, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> The three stooges have some videos that are somewhat better than what is often put up on the internet.



Another snide Vajramusti "drive by" comment.    And just  when everyone was playing so nicely together!


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## Danny T (Oct 13, 2016)

"Anyone else got any good VT videos? Doesn't have to be your group, just anything you think is really good would be interesting."

"The three stooges have some videos that are somewhat better than what is often put up on the internet."

Guys, I don't always agree with Joy and I am certain there many things he doesn't agree with me on. 
Maybe I am miss understanding him here but the sense I got from his statement was that he was referring to just anything you think is good from the internet. I didn't read anything in the comment disparaging anyone or any particular system or video. 
In all honesty I haven't viewed many videos nor do I spend any time chasing videos on the internet. Most all I have seen is what has been posted here or that is shared to me on FB from time to time. Of those I have seen very few and I mean 'very few' have been worth viewing.
So based on what I have seen on the net I agree with him on the three stooges comment.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Are you going to post a good clip in order to help change that sad statistic?


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry.There area couple of problems.
1. There are many bad wing chun videos on You tube- there is not much quality control and this accounts for much of the ridicule and lack of respect  that wing chun faces from non wing chun people.

2. Viewers of you tube videos are often too  ready to give their views without showing much analytical ability.

There are good wing chun videos-those of WSL and his best students and  Ho Kam Ming and his best students, couple of Jiu Wan's students,
a couple of Ng Chan videos. I think that people like Hung Lum(Andrew Ma) would agree with me..I dont know how the view got started that wing chun can be learned quickly. Synthesizing the soft and the hard and related things are not easy. Take the slt---learning the visual aspects and sequences
are not too difficult but understanding in depth thr conceptual aspects of wing chun and sculpting ones motions accordingly are not easy.

I am not a missionary and I dont even have a video camera but have crossed hands with lots of people from  different lineages and different arts.
I drop in hoping to learn something and to get a sense of what is going on.

I see some good videos in some facebook pages but they dont seem to appear here


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## Vajramusti (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> Another snide Vajramusti "drive by" comment.    And just  when everyone was playing so nicely together!


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I gather that you prefer a feel good society


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## Lobo66 (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry.There area couple of problems.
> 1. There are many bad wing chun videos on You tube- there is not much quality control and this accounts for much of the ridicule and lack of respect  that wing chun faces from non wing chun people.
> 
> ...




So just post the Facebook links.


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------
> I gather that you prefer a feel good society



I prefer people elaborate one what they mean so that others don't have to say something like "maybe I am miss understanding him here but the sense I got from his statement"........   You have established a pattern of typically only posting when you have something negative to say, making a very brief statement that does not elaborate on what you mean, and then when challenged on it you end up saying "I'm not discussing it further with you" and you bow out of the conversation.   For instance....why did it take my probing to get you to actually elaborate on your current "one-liner" snide comment?   Why did you make a negative "one-liner" snide comment on the Lop Da Drill thread, when everyone was discussing nicely and admitting that there were multiple approaches to the topic.....even Guy B!!!!      This is not expecting a "feel good society", this is just expecting people to be somewhat polite and civil in conversation.  More than one person here obviously thought your "three stooges" comment referred to them and there system, given that multiple videos from the internet had been posted here already and your comment did not elaborate on whether they were included in your statement or not.  This is supposed to be a  "friendly" discussion forum, and neither of your posts on 2 different threads just recently were particularly "friendly."   Just sayin......


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## guy b (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry.There area couple of problems.
> 1. There are many bad wing chun videos on You tube- there is not much quality control and this accounts for much of the ridicule and lack of respect  that wing chun faces from non wing chun people.
> 
> ...



Thanks for reply.

You could post the facebook links of videos you have liked as someone else suggested? Increasing exposure to better videos might help to improve the reputation of VT, as highlighted in your point 1.

Alternatively if you don't wish to post anything, you could provide some feedback on any of the clips already posted which might help get some discussion going. Since you highlight a lack of analytical ability as a problem in discussions of VT video clips you could help change this by providing comment with analytical depth which might help to provoke interesting and informative discusion


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> Another snide Vajramusti "drive by" comment.    And just  when everyone was playing so nicely together!


 
I don't know...I think this comment has some validity, especially when you see some of the videos that claim to be wing chun.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry.There area couple of problems.
> 1. There are many bad wing chun videos on You tube- there is not much quality control and this accounts for much of the ridicule and lack of respect  that wing chun faces from non wing chun people.
> 
> ...


 

When people say "wing chun can be learned quickly," I think they mean exactly what you reference here: it is easy to learn the sequences and to learn kind of/sort of how the techniques work, but to get the proper body mechanics behind all of it...THAT will take a while. A lifetime.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> I prefer people elaborate one what they mean so that others don't have to say something like "maybe I am miss understanding him here but the sense I got from his statement"........   You have established a pattern of typically only posting when you have something negative to say, making a very brief statement that does not elaborate on what you mean, and then when challenged on it you end up saying "I'm not discussing it further with you" and you bow out of the conversation.   For instance....why did it take my probing to get you to actually elaborate on your current "one-liner" snide comment?   Why did you make a negative "one-liner" snide comment on the Lop Da Drill thread, when everyone was discussing nicely and admitting that there were multiple approaches to the topic.....even Guy B!!!!      This is not expecting a "feel good society", this is just expecting people to be somewhat polite and civil in conversation.  More than one person here obviously thought your "three stooges" comment referred to them and there system, given that multiple videos from the internet had been posted here already and your comment did not elaborate on whether they were included in your statement or not.  This is supposed to be a  "friendly" discussion forum, and neither of your posts on 2 different threads just recently were particularly "friendly."   Just sayin......


 
Yes, it is SUPPOSED to be a friendly discussion, but we all know the reality. We have all seen something like this multiple times: one person says "I interpret bong sao/lop sao like this." Another person reads it, does not agree, and instead of saying "interesting interpretation, now here's mine," they start out by saying, "You're stupid for thinking that! You are WRONG! Now here is the REAL bong sao/lop sao interpretation!"

Of course, I am paraphrasing, but you get the idea. My point is there are a lot of times on here when people can't just give their view...they have to insult the other person first. It's maddening because I enjoy posting on here, but there are those times where it makes me feel like bailing.

And yet, here I am still. That is because I feel the good DOES outweigh the bad here.


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> ...And yet, here I am still. That is because I feel the good DOES outweigh the bad here.



I agree.

@KPM ... Talking about "snide comments" and Joy's remark about a "feel good  society"... sometimes snide comments make me feel good! 

Eric H's post for example.


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

^^^^ Yeah Steve, but we've already established that you are kind of weird!


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Yeah Steve, but we've already established that you are kind of weird!


 

Are you referring to me? I know there is a member whose screen name is Steve, but I also know you can see MY name is Steve in my signature.


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Are you referring to me? I know there is a member whose screen name is Steve, but I also know you can see MY name is Steve in my signature.



No Steve, I think he was directing that one at me. -- Geezer Steve


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

geezer said:


> No Steve, I think he was directing that one at me. -- Geezer Steve


 
Okay, well that clears that up.


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## Danny T (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Yeah Steve, but we've already established that you are kind of weird!


Aren't we all...in our own weird ways.


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## anerlich (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> Another snide Vajramusti "drive by" comment.    And just  when everyone was playing so nicely together!



Snide, perhaps. Accurate? Arguably.


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## guy b (Oct 14, 2016)

This is another good clip. It is Philipp Bayer so old generation but good to watch:


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## guy b (Oct 14, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Snide, perhaps. Accurate? Arguably.



Do you have any clips of VT that you think would be good for others to watch?


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## anerlich (Oct 15, 2016)

My friends Stuart and Tracey Clayton, both red sashes in TWC under Rick Spain, run a kwoon in Ulverstone, Tasmania that offers Wing Chun, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MMA, and kickboxing classes, as well as a fully equipped gym for fitness training with classes daily. They have another red sash who instructs named Brent Duggan, and some top notch gold sash students/instructors of both genders to back them up.

Stuart is a brown belt in BJJ.

They have produced some successful MMA fighters including Ethan Duniam. One of his cage fights is here:






I gather some guy called Alan Orr in Britain has done similar things. Apparently he has a Jiu Jitsu black belt as well. Me too!

I have another friend who runs a school in Merimbula on the South Coast of NSW with a similar curriculum. He's only been going down there for about a year so it might be a bit early for him to have developed a stable of fighters. But:






I think these people show that you can run a world class kwoon or fight gym anywhere. A city or a small town.

I don't really like putting up video because context is missing and too many have different approaches from ours which means endless arguments and explanations. AS this might prove


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## anerlich (Oct 15, 2016)

IMO the "next generation" will have to have more than Wing Chun to be regarded as complete fighters.


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## anerlich (Oct 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> Sean Wood his student is also very good and taking an interesting direction with MMA focused training



That would be Sean *Wude*


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## guy b (Oct 15, 2016)

anerlich said:


> That would be Sean *Wude*



^I assumed that was a joke about French people pronouncing the name properly. It's Sean Wood


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## guy b (Oct 15, 2016)

anerlich said:


> My friends Stuart and Tracey Clayton, both red sashes in TWC under Rick Spain, run a kwoon in Ulverstone, Tasmania that offers Wing Chun, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, MMA, and kickboxing classes, as well as a fully equipped gym for fitness training with classes daily. They have another red sash who instructs named Brent Duggan, and some top notch gold sash students/instructors of both genders to back them up.
> 
> Stuart is a brown belt in BJJ.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clips. I don't think anything wrong in running a fight focused gym and I think bjj a very useful addition to VT


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## anerlich (Oct 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> ^I assumed that was a joke about French people pronouncing the name properly. It's Sean Wood



Whatever. Sean Wude is what he called himself when he befriended me on Facebook. I'm taking his direct testimony over your hearsay.


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## guy b (Oct 15, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Whatever. Sean Wude is what he called himself when he befriended me on Facebook. I'm taking his direct testimony over your hearsay.



lol ok, keep your hair on


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## anerlich (Oct 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> lol ok, keep your hair on



Bit late for that, I've been shaving my head for over ten years. Wasn't upset either.


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## guy b (Oct 16, 2016)

anerlich said:


> IMO the "next generation" will have to have more than Wing Chun to be regarded as complete fighters.



I'm not sure if it is sensible for VT to present itself as something that produces complete fighters. It is what it is, don't think it needs to change. More people entering comps would be good to see though.


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## Lobo66 (Oct 16, 2016)

But if you enter a pancrace or mma competition, for example, you had better be a more complete fighter, i.e.  confident in your standing grappling/wrestling and ground game.  No two ways around it.


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## guy b (Oct 16, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> But if you enter a pancrace or mma competition, for example, you had better be a more complete fighter, i.e.  confident in your standing grappling/wrestling and ground game.  No two ways around it.



I think if you are going to enter an MMA event then you absolutely need to look beyond VT to cover all the bases. You need a ground game to start with, and some kind of standing grappling ability would be second most essential to add on. 

In my experience BJJ is a very complimentary system to add to VT which doesn't contradict anything and takes a similar technique over muscle based approach.

Standing grappling is more problematic but I would go with judo or SC over western wrestling because I think it interferes less with VT


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## wingchun100 (Oct 17, 2016)

guy b said:


> I think if you are going to enter an MMA event then you absolutely need to look beyond VT to cover all the bases. You need a ground game to start with, and some kind of standing grappling ability would be second most essential to add on.
> 
> In my experience BJJ is a very complimentary system to add to VT which doesn't contradict anything and takes a similar technique over muscle based approach.
> 
> Standing grappling is more problematic but I would go with judo or SC over western wrestling because I think it interferes less with VT


 
Judo would absolutely be more compatible with wing chun over western wrestling. Both rely on sensitivity. If your opponent is leaning toward the left, then help him go there with a judo throw. This is the exact kind of sensitivity developed in chi sao.


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## KPM (Oct 17, 2016)

^^^^^ I'm finding  Bukti Negara Silat to be a great match up with Wing Chun.  The punching/closing structures and techniques aren't all that different, so their sweeps, throws, and finishing moves just fit perfectly with Wing Chun.


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