# History of Islamic Hostility and an Analysis of Current Threat Potential



## Twin Fist (Jun 23, 2011)

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2-t...d-to-attack-recruiting-station-with-grenades/


SEATTLE (AP)  Two men have been arrested in a plot to use machine guns and grenades in an attack on a military recruiting station in Seattle that also houses a daycare, the U.S. Justice Department said Thursday.

Abu Khalid Abdul-Latif, also known as Joseph Anthony Davis, of Seattle, and Walli Mujahidh, also known as Frederick Domingue Jr., of Los Angeles, were arrested Wednesday night.


I am sure those names are a total coincidence.....


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## Steve (Jun 23, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2-t...d-to-attack-recruiting-station-with-grenades/
> 
> 
> SEATTLE (AP)  Two men have been arrested in a plot to use machine guns and grenades in an attack on a military recruiting station in Seattle that also houses a daycare, the U.S. Justice Department said Thursday.
> ...


Joseph and Frederick?  I think those were the names that their parents gave them.  Abu and Walli?  Pretty sure they chose those names when they converted to Islam after being successfully recruited by extremists while in prison.  So, no.  They weren't coincidence.  

Your ignorant bigotry actually undermines the significance of the crime.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

First, a big "Well done!" to the organisations and officers that stopped this before it got going.

Second, it has ever befuddled me what these converted (aka brain-washed) nut-cases think they are going to achieve that aids their cause.  

Attack a recruiting station on American soil, kill and injure ordinary civilians in the process.  Did they not pay attention to what happened after the WTC was destroyed?


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## Empty Hands (Jun 23, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> Second, it has ever befuddled me what these converted (aka brain-washed) nut-cases think they are going to achieve that aids their cause.
> 
> Attack a recruiting station on American soil, kill and injure ordinary civilians in the process.  *Did they not pay attention to what happened after the WTC was destroyed?*



You mean when we immediately changed our national way of life and did away with important freedoms and protections?  When we engaged in several decade-plus long wars with ruinous effect on our debt?  When we threw away whatever moral standing we had when our government sanctioned torture of unarmed captives and half the country went to bat for it?  When we vastly accelerated the accretion of power to one man, the Executive, in contravention of the design of our system?  When the rule of law became less important than expediency and "safety"?

Looks to me that they were paying very close attention indeed.  Those 19 sick ****s with their boxcutters and a few thousand dollars of backing succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2011)

:nods:  Aye in that regard I quite agree.  I was thinking more in terms of how such attacks only serve to harden resolve and reaction *against* the activists cause.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 23, 2011)

"they made us change our way of life,,,they suceeded"

horse hockey

we SHOULD have changed our way of life, we were naive and stupidly unconcerned with security

now we know better, even if some of our dumber citizens refuse to admit that the world AHS CHANGED

our response was needed and smart


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 23, 2011)

Seriously? 
I don't know how the nuts don't successfully conduct terrorists attacks in the States more often then they do. Its really not that hard to buy weapons, or the necessary ingredents for bombs.


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## billc (Jun 23, 2011)

I think that they may be adapting.  That is the real problem.  Attacks like the one in Mumbai would be difficult to stop.  Of course, unlike mumbai, if they chose the wrong state, some of the victims would be shooting back.


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## Archangel M (Jun 23, 2011)

I have been to some lectures where intelligence types have stated that US Law Enforcement (and citizens) being armed is in fact a planning blockage for Mumbai style attacks. While an attack of that sort WOULD indeed cause mass casualties and a large media splash, a days long event would not likely happen and the risk of a shoot-out with the police before the operation could be pulled off is believed to be a reason we haven't seen it.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 24, 2011)

If they followed Islam properly and truely...they would be pacifists and non-violent.

Just like a Christian, if they followed the Bible the way intended, they wouldn't hate, bomb abortion clinics, or presecute people for being different(IE: Race, Sex, Sexual Orinentation, etc)

Extreamist and Violent Fundamentalists should be delt with swiftly and effectively.

Good for them. 

I hope they get a fair trial in the Court system.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

you could not be more wrong, do a search on "religion of peace" all the relevant suras has been posted and it is not open for debate, islam preaches violence.

anyone denying this simple truth is/ has been deluded.


in related news, 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/thr...eattle-plotters-imagined-own-media-headlines/

SEATTLE (The Blaze/AP) &#8212; Two ex-convicts planned an attack on a Seattle military recruiting station hoping that it would get attention from the media, authorities say, and even imagined the headlines: &#8220;Three Muslim Males Walk Into MEPS Building, Seattle, Washington, And Gun Down Everybody.&#8221;

BY THIER OWN ADMISSION they were going to committ this horrible crime BECAUSE OF THIER MUSLIM FAITH.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> you could not be more wrong, do a search on "religion of peace" all the relevant suras has been posted and it is not open for debate, islam preaches violence.
> 
> anyone denying this simple truth is/ has been deluded.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population



> Islam is the world's second largest religion after Christianity. According to a 2009 demographic study, Islam has *1.57 billion* adherents, making up 23% of the world population.[1][2]



List of terrorist attacks in 2010:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents,_2010

Do the math.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

and again, you are deluded, the BOOK preaches violence wether they act on it or not

thats always the part that shoots you in the foot Bill.

it doesnt matter if only 0.01 % of them do anything bad, the book commands violent death to the infidel.

if they DONT engage in jihad, it just means they are not very good at following the book.


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## WC_lun (Jun 24, 2011)

Your arguement is a straw man for bigotry.  If your arguement was valid then you would also admitt to Christians as being slavers and  violent.  Both the Bible and the Quran have commands to be non-violent.  They also have commands for violence.  Religion is used by too many as a justification for violence.  What you are espousing is no different.


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## Big Don (Jun 24, 2011)

Those damn Methodists sure cause a lot of problems...


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 24, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Those damn Methodists sure cause a lot of problems...


 

Yeah, and Quakers too.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and again, you are deluded, the BOOK preaches violence wether they act on it or not
> 
> thats always the part that shoots you in the foot Bill.
> 
> ...



Some day, you might want to read your own bible and see how much ****ed up stuff is in there.  I want to meet the person who follows that 100%.
I'll have to visit him in prison though, as he'll be serving time for murder, rape, child abuse, and defecating outside the commode.


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## Archangel M (Jun 24, 2011)

It's not really about "The Book" per se. It's about the people who literraly follow it. I believe the Old Testament named stoning for adultry. Know of any Jewish nations/groups who do that anymore? How about Muslim nations?


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## swivel63 (Jun 24, 2011)

blaming a religion for it's fanatics is a silly argument.  christianity has as much dirt if not more dirt on its hands than islam.  david kills thousands and was a man after God's heart.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

christians are not blowing **** up

pretty much closes that argument down.


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## swivel63 (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> christians are not blowing **** up
> 
> pretty much closes that argument down.



i wonder what the remaining branch davidians think about that.  stop looking through a glass that encompasses only the last 20 years.  turmoil in the middle east has been going on for more than a 1000 years.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

the branch davidians didnt comitt any crimes and didnt attack anyone, they WERE attacked.

and i dont care what happened 1000 years ago

TODAY i dont have to worry about christians blowing me up, i DO have to worry about muslims blowing my **** up.

not all, not even most

but many


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## Steve (Jun 24, 2011)

Timothy McVeigh was raised Roman Catholic.
http://www.prochoice.org/pubs_research/publications/downloads/about_abortion/violence_stats.pdf

But the most obvious example of radical christian violence in recent history is the violence against abortion clinics.

Arsons and Bombings:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/arsons.asp

Murders and Shootings:
http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/violence/murders.asp

Do you believe that these weren't almost exclusively perpetrated by extremist Christians?


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## billc (Jun 24, 2011)

Abortion clinic bombers are lone actors without state support, material, spiritual or educational, and are condemned by followers of the main stream faith. I don't believe you can say the same thing about these two morons. I believe they had contact with that American nutjob in Afghanistan who encouraged the attack. Michael Medved, the radio host was talking about it because he lives there and a freind works at that processing station.

Also, Timothy McVeigh denied religion, said he was not a christian.

Twin fist is also right, the nuts at the davidian compound were doing there own thing when the feds rolled up.  

***************I AM NOT SAYING THAT THEY WERE RIGHT IN SHOOTING UP THE FEDS, OR THAT THEY WERE INNOCENT OF THE CHARGES THAT LED THE FEDS TO RAID THEIR COMPOUND, I AM SAYING THEY WERE NOT GOING AROUND ATTACKING OTHER PEOPLE IN THE NAME OF THEIR RELIGION, UNLESS SOMEONE KNOWS THAT THEY ACTUALLY WERE AND CAN SHOW ME THE ARTICLES, IN WHICH CASE I WILL SAY THAT YES, THEY ALSO ATTACKED OTHER PEOPLE.***************


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## billc (Jun 24, 2011)

looking at your Stats Stevebjj, it appears that the abortion bombers killed 8 people since 1977...that many people is hardly a nation wide threat compared to islamic violence in this country and around the world. Also, the killers do not recieve any support from the catholic church in any way and are condemned by the highest to lowest members of the church. The muslim killers around the world recieve quite a bit of sympathy, if not outright support from many in their communities. I remember a case of an honor killing, in Britain or Germany, where the a poll was taken in the community and something like 60 percent she deserved her death for acting German, It must have been germany. If you ask for the article I'll have to look it up. It was a while ago.

Here is one article on honor killings in Germany, haven't had time to read the whole article.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html


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## Steve (Jun 24, 2011)

billcihak said:


> looking at your Stats Stevebjj, it appears that the abortion bombers killed 8 people since 1977...that many people is hardly a nation wide threat compared to islamic violence in this country and around the world.  Also, the killers do not recieve any support from the catholic church in any way and are condemned by the highest to lowest members of the church.  The muslim killers around the world recieve quite a bit of sympathy, if not outright support from many in their communities.  I remember a case of an honor killing, in Britain or Germany, where the a poll was taken in the community and something like 60 percent she deserved her death for acting German,  It must have been germany.  If you ask for the article I'll have to look it up.  It was  a while ago.


TF said that christians don't blow **** up.  I pointed out that in recent history, off the top of my head, I could point to several who have.  It's not a matter of scope.  

Lesson here is that crazy people do crazy ****, and often ascribe their craziness to a religion.


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## billc (Jun 24, 2011)

From the article on German honor killings:

The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996.

In many cases, fathers -- and sometimes even mothers -- single out their youngest son to do the killing, Boehmecke said, "because they know minors will get lighter sentences from German judges." In some cases, these boys are revered by their community and fellow inmates as "honor heroes" -- a dementedly skewed status they carry with them for the rest of their lives. Currently, six boys are serving time in Berlin's juvenile prison for honor killings. "In a way, these boys are victims, too," she said. Sometimes they are forced to kill their favorite sister. 

One of the unsettling truths about Hatin's death and the plight of many Muslim women is that it took the comments of three Turkish boys and the outrage of a male school director to get people to notice. When the murder first happened, it sent no shock waves through the mainstream German press. It only became big news when a group of 14-year-old Turkish boys mocked Hatin during a class discussion at a school near the crime scene. One boy said, "She only had herself to blame," while another insisted, "She deserved what she got. The whore lived like a German." The enraged school director not only sent a letter home to parents, but also to teachers across Germany. The letter ignited a media fury. Less known, however, is that the letter also hit a nerve among educators. "Teachers from across the country wrote back saying they had had similar experiences," Boehmecke said. They reported Turkish boys taunting Turkish girls who don't wear headscarves as "German sluts." "That's the part no one has written about. Clearly there is huge potential for similar violence across Germany," Boehmecke said. "Not just in the big cities, but all over. It's a problem many politicians haven't been willing to face."







DPA​A memorial to Hatin, showing her holding her son when he was a baby. That was before she discarded her headscarf and insisted on living as she wanted.


Astonishingly, the first extensive data the German government collected about the lives of Turkish women was published last summer, as part of a study done by the Ministry for Family Affairs. The study showed that 49 percent of Turkish women said they had experienced physical or sexual violence in their marriage. One fourth of those married to Turkish husbands said they met their grooms on their wedding day. Half said they were pressured to marry partners selected by relatives and 17 percent felt forced into such partnerships.
.....................................................................................

Yes, you are right on that but twin fist is also right about the muslim threat being different than abortion killings or bombings.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

but honor killings are cutural, not religious........despite them all being done by muslims.....


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## CanuckMA (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> but honor killings are cutural, not religious........despite them all being done by muslims.....


 
Honour killings are also practiced in India, by...










Hindus.



And BTW, the first recorded case of Honour killing was done by Jacob's sons anfter the rape of Dina. 

You know, Jews.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

every honor killing in these united states has been done by a muslim

here is the difference Bro

the Hindu's dont have a book telling them to go out and kill

muslims DO


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 24, 2011)

[cough]Sabra and Shatila massacres[cough cough].  Kingsmill massacre. Karatina massacre. Tel-al Zaatar massacre. Khojaly massacre. Greysteel massacre. Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. Gulbarg Society massacre. 

In fact, it would appear that Muslims attack Christians and Jews and Hindus, Hindus attack Muslims, Christians attack Muslims, Jews attack Muslims and Christians, and Protestants attack Catholics and Catholics attack protestants on a fairly regular basis; if we're just looking religion.

But people will see just exactly what they want to see.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_events_named_massacres

Have a nice evening gents.  Stew well in those juices.  I have a tournament to prepare for.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

and ofg course, right on schedule, our resident muslim apologists will come in, throwing unrelated tidbits around, totally trying to hide and cover up the FACT that once again, MUSLIM tried to blow something up

they were MUSLIMS and nothing you can do or say will change it.

it doesnt matter what happened in 1200 bc

it doesnt matter what happened  in 1200 AD

it matters what is happening NOW

MUSLIMS are trying to kill infidels for NO OTHER REASON than that they are not muslims.

and they are using the koran as justification

no one can hide or change that FACT


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## swivel63 (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> not all, not even most
> 
> but many



this i can agree with.  but it is the religion or it's practitioners?


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

it isnt the people

people are just people

they do what they are taught


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## swivel63 (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> it isnt the people
> 
> people are just people
> 
> they do what they are taught



so if the religion teaches them violence, then why arent all or most doing it?  why is it just many?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 24, 2011)

I concur that many faiths and cultures have this stain on their hands.  It's a disgrace to them, even tho' they may not see it as such (much as that boggles my mind).  You don't want to know what has been happening in Libya, for example, in this regard since their civil war broke out.

Let's not bicker about who is worst, let us just agree that it is wrong and maybe do something constructive like writing to our political representatives.  It's a tiny thing but, in the end, it is the politicos that represent us who have the power to start the ball rolling to change such things by diplomatic pressure.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 24, 2011)

swivel63 said:


> so if the religion teaches them violence, then why arent all or most doing it?  why is it just many?



because just like christianity, most people dont take religion all that seriously

the difference is, the bible doesnt really compel it's followers to go kill people

the koran does


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## Steve (Jun 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> every honor killing in these united states has been done by a muslim
> 
> here is the difference Bro
> 
> ...


What's the definition of an honor killing?  Is it where a person is killed for having brought dishonor on the family?  Is it a crime of passion where the wife is killed for having committed adultery?  Let's define honor killing, because I'm not having any trouble thinking of situations where white dudes in places like Texas have committed murder for similar reasons.


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## billc (Jun 24, 2011)

You know, let's not leave out the atheists in the violence discussion.  They have a history of killing as well, and on a pretty huge scale.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2011)

Some people need to actually read their Christian Bibles.
The whole thing.
Not the 'pick and choose' stuff.

As to the rest...facts don't matter when one is busy justifying their wet pants, and squishy butts while carrying torches and pitchforks in a crowd of like minded folks. 
Facts, perspective, rational and level headed thinking. Nah.

Can we just pass a law requiring all Muslims to report to camps already? It's make some folks so happy..and I'm all about happiness today.


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## granfire (Jun 24, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Some people need to actually read their Christian Bibles.
> The whole thing.
> Not the 'pick and choose' stuff.
> 
> ...




You mean, like, holding hands and sing Kumbaya while we dance around the burning stakes?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2011)

There's a point where one just says "you know, arguing this point, just annoys me. Nothing will change the other persons mind. Not facts. Not evidence. Not statistics. Not reality. Nothing. All that happens is, I get annoyed." Which is why I'm rarely debating this whole anti-muslim thing anymore.  Because despite the fact that 99% of reality says "No need to panic", there's always that 1% of dumbasses out there (ie the subjects of the OP) that start the sky falling again, and the damn pants panic dance going again.  Me, I give up.  It's not worth my health n all that.


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## granfire (Jun 24, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> There's a point where one just says "you know, arguing this point, just annoys me. Nothing will change the other persons mind. Not facts. Not evidence. Not statistics. Not reality. Nothing. All that happens is, I get annoyed." Which is why I'm rarely debating this whole anti-muslim thing anymore.  Because despite the fact that 99% of reality says "No need to panic", there's always that 1% of dumbasses out there (ie the subjects of the OP) that start the sky falling again, and the damn pants panic dance going again.  Me, I give up.  It's not worth my health n all that.



Al Gore invented the ignore list for that!


:lfao:


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 24, 2011)

I'm staff.  I can't put anyone on ignore.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 24, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> There's a point where one just says "you know, arguing this point, just annoys me. Nothing will change the other persons mind. Not facts. Not evidence. Not statistics. Not reality. Nothing. All that happens is, I get annoyed." Which is why I'm rarely debating this whole anti-muslim thing anymore. Because despite the fact that 99% of reality says "No need to panic", there's always that 1% of dumbasses out there (ie the subjects of the OP) that start the sky falling again, and the damn pants panic dance going again. Me, I give up. It's not worth my health n all that.


 
Bob, it's like the whole atheist vs. religion debates. Does anyone really think Dawkins or Hitchens or an Imam or priest or rabbi will actually change their minds by the evidence presented by the others? It's not about them, it's not about you or I. It's about the 95% of the people who watch these debates from the sidelines, those are the people you are trying to convience. If you can convince just one person watching to actually look at evidence and think, then the debate was worth while.


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## granfire (Jun 24, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm staff.  I can't put anyone on ignore.




Poor thing! ^_^


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 25, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> because just like christianity, most people dont take religion all that seriously
> 
> the difference is, the bible doesnt really compel it's followers to go kill people
> 
> the koran does



Thats a real load.

Ever hear of the Crusades?  Ever hear of about abortion clinics being pipe bombed or..



> Restoration of the 10 Commandments
> 
> 
> 
> ...



or



> Kansas City, MO &#8212; 33-year-old Peggy Ross was taken into custody early Tuesday morning after police say she stabbed her 8-year-old son multiple times as he lay sleeping in his grandmother&#8217;s bed.
> Ross&#8217; mother told investigators she and the child were sleeping when she woke to find Ross stabbing the boy with a knife. The woman told police her grandson attempted to ward off the blows with his hands.
> The woman grabbed her daughter and told her to stop, at which point Ross reportedly screamed, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to finish it! God made me do it!&#8221; She then fled the house on foot.
> Arrested a short time later, Ross was booked into jail on charges of child endangerment and second-degree assault. A bond amount has not yet been made available.
> The boy suffered cuts and wounds to his hands and wrist, scratches on his left shoulder and bruises on his left elbow and side. He was stitched up at the hospital and released.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 25, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> Your arguement is a straw man for bigotry. If your arguement was valid then you would also admitt to Christians as being slavers and violent. Both the Bible and the Quran have commands to be non-violent. They also have commands for violence. Religion is used by too many as a justification for violence. What you are espousing is no different.


Yep, Christians have behaved violently! In fact anyone who targets the innocent because of their backward fundamental beliefs is a nutcase and has no place in society. I find it amazing though that a thread is started about a Muslim attack on a recruiting station and the first thing you do is point out to us that Christians have been violent too.
Yes, Christians have been violent, but right now, in this day and age in the US, the enemy is Islam. 9/11, Cobalt towers, 1st WTC bombing, US embassies in Africa, USS Cole. *The enemy is Islam, those who appease them and those who support them by trying to justify bad behaviour, by pointing out the bad behaviour of other groups.*


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 25, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> [cough]Sabra and Shatila massacres[cough cough]. Kingsmill massacre. Karatina massacre. Tel-al Zaatar massacre. Khojaly massacre. Greysteel massacre. Cave of the Patriarchs massacre. Gulbarg Society massacre.
> 
> In fact, it would appear that Muslims attack Christians and Jews and Hindus, Hindus attack Muslims, Christians attack Muslims, Jews attack Muslims and Christians, and Protestants attack Catholics and Catholics attack protestants on a fairly regular basis; if we're just looking religion.
> 
> ...


 
So, let's just condemn religion altogether. Let's just call it supernatural cohersion and therefore evil by design.
Again, let's just say that religious nutjobs are wrong, but let's not start a thread about an attempted Muslim attack and then try to divert attention by focusing on other religions.
As you guys know, I've no time for religion in general, so let's just condemn it all!


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## Archangel M (Jun 25, 2011)

WHAT ABOUT THE CRUSADES?!?!? (or any other of these examples)

Dude those happened what 1000 years ago? Thats like expecting me to pay reparations for slavery. One I wasn't around...two my ancestors were not slave owners or even American citizens at the time.

What group is the largest risk at THIS time?


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## billc (Jun 25, 2011)

Everyone seems to get the crusades wrong.  The crusades were defensive wars against muslims moving into christian territory.  The muslims led an expedition into france, from conquered spain, 50 years before the first crusade was called.  The muslims were expanding at the time of the crusades and were annoying everyone even back then.


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## Archangel M (Jun 25, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Everyone seems to get the crusades wrong.  The crusades were defensive wars against muslims moving into christian territory.  The muslims led an expedition into france, from conquered spain, 50 years before the first crusade was called.  The muslims were expanding at the time of the crusades and were annoying everyone even back then.



Point.

Nobody ever seems to mention the Moorish invasions of Europe as a debate point.


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## Sukerkin (Jun 25, 2011)

It is true that the Moorish invasion and various military adventures are seldom mentioned at all - I am pleasantly surprised to hear them spoken of :nods:.

Mind you, I am convinced that the reason they are seldom spoken of is because it showed that not only the West was capable of establishing and maintaining an empire.  It's akin to why so little is widely known about the magnificent Hindu temples in the South of India - they were 'discovered' by Victorian British army officers and their sensibiltiies were so shocked by them the information was largely suppressed.

Religion is bad.  Empires are bad.  Anyone different than us is bad.

Oh wait ... it's not that simple is it?

History is a melange of twisted tales, some of which change their meaning depending on who you ask.  The tends to be true no matter how recent that history is.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 25, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Thats a real load.
> 
> Ever hear of the Crusades?  Ever hear of about abortion clinics being pipe bombed or..



uneducated idealism

the poster seems like a nice educated guy, like the average American democrat, but the post (like most liberal ideals) is full of asinine garbage.

the crusades were, as has been PROVEN, a response to MUSLIM agression, because that is what thier book tells them to do.


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## elder999 (Jun 25, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> the crusades were, as has been PROVEN, a response to MUSLIM agression, because that is what thier book tells them to do.


 
Nothings been PROVEN-somebody (billi) just said it was 

The 1st Crusade, at the order of Pope Urban II, was launched-in part-to aid the Byzantine emperor in repelling Turkish invaders, but it's primary goal rapidly became the taking (or retaking) of Jerusalem.

The Crusade of 1101 was a mission to reinforce the holding of Jerusalem.

THe Second Crusade of 1145 was a response to the fall of the first of the Crusader Kingdoms to Islamic invasion-it ultimately failed, though it coincided with the Reconquista of the Iberian peninsula, and may have aided in the taking of Lisbon.

The Third Crusade of 1189 was an attempt to reretake the Holy Land from Saladin, after the surrender of Jerusalem. While they did not rerecapture Jerusalem, it did allow for a continued Christian rule in Syria and Cyprus.

THe Fourth Crusade of 1202 was an attempt to rerereconquer Jerusalem by invading through Egypt. Instead, the Chrisitians-predominantly Roman Catholics-conquered Constantinople, the kingdom in the east-Byzantium.

The FIfth Crusade of 1213 was one last gasp of an attempt at taking Jerusalem through Egypt. It failed.

Which of these, aside from the first, could properly  be called "a response to MUSLIM aggression?" Were not the MUSLIMS trying to retake their homeland, in each instance?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 25, 2011)

As earlier noted, nothing is ever as simple as it seems when you're dealing with the narrative of history.

By-in-large, the Crusades had little to do with faith and a lot to do with money, power and prestige.

The concepts of "The Short Victorious War" and "Waving the Bloodied Shirt" have been with us a long time, sad to say.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 25, 2011)

Which side was it again that had the bright idea to send kids to war?  Where most of them were killed or sold into slavery as a result?

As to hostilities...which faith is older again?

Since Spain was brought up...which faith was it again that ran the Inquisition?

Never mind.  Facts are called for, and what we want is just more reasons to spew bigotry and justify hatred. That's all.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 25, 2011)

justifying (or ignoring) bad behavior by pointing out other bad behavior is beneath you Bob

why even bring up the inquisition? to distract from the facts and to diffuse the blame from islam to others....

you want to talk about how bad christianity and it's history is? make a new thread, i will pitch in, but trying to hide the truth about islam under a smear job of christianity is simply sad and lame


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 25, 2011)

Perspective John. I'm adding perspective you the witch hunt. I know, that's not wanted, what with all the finger pointing and rabble rousing and all that stuff.

Funny thing...we don't hear much about all the Wiccan terrorists. Not much on the Apache's lately either. Somalian pirates still make the news every 2-3 months.  

You started this topic being a bit of a sarcastic git. 
I'm just more so.

But lets go back to the 'bash islam and paint muslims as rabid dogs' theme that a few folks like so much.



> the crusades were, as has been PROVEN, a response to MUSLIM aggression, because that is what their book tells them to do.



Now, I corrected the spelling above, but the meaning is the same,

The Crusades.  
These were "_The *Crusades* were a series of religiously sanctioned military campaigns,  called by the pope and waged by kings and nobles who volunteered to  take up the cross with the main goal of restoring Christian control of  the Holy Land. The crusaders came from all over western Europe, and fought a series of disconnected campaigns between 1095 and 1291_;"
(Source: Wikipedia)

You said "a response to MUSLIM aggression"
Wiki says "the main goal of restoring Christian control of  the Holy Land"

ok. So how did the Christian's lose control of the Holy Land?
"_The Muslim presence in the Holy Land began with the initial Muslim conquest of Syria in the 7th century under the Rashidun Caliphs. The Muslim armies' successes put increasing pressure on the Eastern Orthodox  Byzantine Empire which had originally claimed the region (part of the  Eastern Roman Empire which the Byzantines inherited) as their territory &#8211;  this included eventual incursions by the Seljuk Turks._ "
(Source: Wikipedia)

ok...

So, the Byzantine Empire lost the lands in a war over territory...a territory containing _"the third most sacred site in Islam._"

Where?

Jerusalem.

Sacred city to -3- religions.

John.  Let me ask something here. Which religion was there first? 

So, the Christians lost holy ground, to another faith who also considered it holy ground, while both took great fun in slaughtering the actual original people, who also considered it holy ground.

Now, as to their book saying 'go out and kill', yes it does. Especially when you take large parts out of context. Of course, I've read the entire thing. Have you? Has anyone here other than me read the entire Koran?  Have you read your bible lately? Not the 'add on book', but the real one?  The one that tells you when to beat your kids to death, and how many times it's ok to smack your wife?  

Bluntly put, if you take the Christian Bible at a literal, by-the-book read, it's a pretty ****ed up thing. Just as ****ed up as you make the the Koran out to be.  Considering that there are large groups of so called Christians active today who are engaged in the same **** a few bring up about Muslims over and over again yet choose to ignore, explain or minimize it, well, that's pretty selective in my view.

So, lets try a new game here.  Put the goddess damned broad paint brush down, and start dealing in actual specifics for a change.

Because the broad brush strokes are the actions of someone with no real argument.

Histories pretty complicated. The Mid-East has had more changes of ownership that the average nickle. So, get specific and actually do some real research dealing with credible resources.

You want to keep harping on how evil Islam is. How wrong it is. How ****ed up it is.
Hey, why don't you join a religion that doesn't have a ****ed up history?
Is there one?
I doubt it.
Christianity's got just as much blood on it's hands.
Perspective.

So you made 3 claims here.


> 1 - the crusades were, as has been PROVEN,
> 2 - a response to MUSLIM  aggression,
> 3 - because that is what their book tells them to do.



I dispute all 3.

So, lets see your proof.


Oh, and how did the Christians get control of the Holy Land?
The Romans conquered it, and converted.
Ironic the Jews ended up with it anyway.
I wonder what the Macedonians would say....


----------



## granfire (Jun 25, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Perspective John. I'm adding perspective you the witch hunt. I know, that's not wanted, what with all the finger pointing and rabble rousing and all that stuff.
> 
> Funny thing...we don't hear much about all the Wiccan terrorists. Not much on the Apache's lately either. Somalian pirates still make the news every 2-3 months.
> 
> ...



Nice summary of 2000 years (actually way more) of 'stuff'


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 25, 2011)

granfire said:


> Nice summary of 2000 years (actually way more) of 'stuff'


I spent a week trying to timeline things....it gave me a headache and I gave up.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I dispute all 3.
> 
> So, lets see your proof.




Bob, you are embarrassing yourself in your refusal to tell the simple truth.

it is historical fact (thats #1)not opinion that the crusade were a direct result of muslim invasion into what were AT THE TIME Christian lands(thats #2).

yes

you can always play that "but it was someone elses before that" card, and it may be factually true, it is also irrelevant NOISE to smoke screen the truth. Who cares who lived there 100 years before. Thats like saying an Indian can break into your house cuz it was his people's house the last century........i dont think so

and as i have already posted the relevant suras where the muslim is commanded to go out, and convert BY FORCE everyone that isnt a muslim, thats 3.

I seriously dont get why people, ordinarily smart and reasonable people will jump backwards through thier own *** to avoid admitting the truth

the koran preaches violence, it commands violence, and it WORKS cuz GUESS WHAT???

they go out and DO VIOLENCE. Not all, not most, not by a long shot, but a LOT






now to be fair:

maybe the bible does to, but christians by and large do not go out and do violence. And even if they did, in fact, lets say that JUST AS MANY christians go out and blow **** up.

so ****ing what?

what does that have to do with the behavior of muslims?

NOTHING, it is just smoke to try and confuse and hide the truth

I cannot say for sure what another person's motivations are, but it seems pretty apparent that some people just cant admitt the truth


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

I know these are hated, but all I have is facts here.



 332 BC A young Macedonian named Alexander conquered the "Holy Lands". He visits Jerusalem.
 63 BC - Roman Republic conquers the 'Holy Lands'
5 BC - A boy is born to a carpenter and his wife. Too cheap to call ahead for reservations, they end up in a barn for the night.
 30 AD - A Jewish carpenter is nailed to a tree for saying how nice it would be if people got along.
 60 AD - Rome discovers an entertaining new way to feed lions.
 313 AD - Roman Emperor Constantine I declares end of lion feedings with Christians.
 380 AD - Roman Emperor Theodosius I establishes Christianity as official religion of the Empire.
 610 AD - Beginnings of Islam.
 614 AD - Jerusalem falls to the Sassanid Empire (Mixed religions including Christian) and their Jewish allies.
 629 AD - Byzantine's retake Jerusalem.
 637 AD - Caliph Umar the Great conquers Jerusalem. He was Muhammad #2 guy.
 878 AD - Ahmad ibn Tulun, ruler of Egypt and founder of the Tulunid dynasty, conquers Jerusalem and most of Syria, four years after declaring Egypt's independence from the Abbasid court in Baghdad.
 904 AD - The Abbasids regain control of Jerusalem after invading Syria, and the army of Tulunid Emir Harun retreats to Egypt where the Tulunids were defeated the following year.
*1054 AD - Great Schism - the Patriarch of Jerusalem joined the Eastern Orthodox Church, under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. All Christians in the Holy Land came under the jurisdiction of the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, setting in place a key cause of the Crusades*
 1073 AD - Jerusalem is captured by Malik-Shah I's Great Seljuq Empire under Emir Atsiz ibn Uvaq, who was advancing south into the weakening Fatimid Empire following the decisive defeat over the Byzantine army at the Battle of Manzikert two years previously and a devastating six year famine in Egypt between 1067-1072.[44]
 1077 AD - Jerusalem revolts against the rule of Emir Atsiz ibd Uvaq while he is fighting the Fatimid Empire in Egypt. On his return to Jerusalem, Atsiz re-takes the city and massacres the local population.[45] As a result, Atsiz is executed by Tutush I, governor of Syria under his brother, Seljuk leader Malik-Shah I. Tutush I appoints Artuq bin Ekseb, later founder of the Artuqid dynasty, as governor.
 1091-5 AD - Artuq bin Ekseb dies in 1091, and is succeeded as governor by his sons Ilghazi and Sokmen. Malik Shah dies in 1092, and the Great Seljuk Empire splits in to smaller warring states. Control of Jerusalem is disputed between Duqaq and Radwan after the death of their father Tutush I in 1095. The ongoing rivalry weakens Syria.
 1095-6 AD -  Al-Ghazali lives in Jerusalem
*1095 AD -  At the Council of Clermont Pope Urban II calls for the First Crusade*
*1099 AD - Siege of Jerusalem (1099) - First Crusaders capture Jerusalem and slaughter most of the city's Muslim and Jewish inhabitants.*
     Oh, and this may be of interest...lots and lots and lots of ownership changes, revolts, reclamations, and all that stuff.  Got lots of the above (minus the SAR's) from below.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jerusalem

So, a split in the Christian Church, results in the Catholic Pope launching a Crusade.

And the original 'loss' was to a Christian army, from a Christian army.
nice.

ok John, Bill, etc.
Debunk my timeline please.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

Now, let me shorten the time line here.


 614 AD - Jerusalem falls to the Sassanid Empire (Mixed religions including Christian) and their Jewish allies.
 629 AD - Byzantine's retake Jerusalem.
 637 AD - Caliph Umar the Great conquers Jerusalem. He was Muhammad #2 guy.  (This is the "Muslim Conquest")
Over the next 400 years, it changes hands a significant number of times.
*1054 AD - Great Schism - the Patriarch of Jerusalem joined the  Eastern Orthodox Church, under the jurisdiction of Constantinople. All  Christians in the Holy Land came under the jurisdiction of the Greek  Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, setting in place a key cause of the  Crusades*
TheChristian Church had split.
*1095 AD -  At the Council of Clermont Pope Urban II calls for the First Crusade*
*1099 AD - Siege of Jerusalem (1099) - First Crusaders capture  Jerusalem and slaughter most of the city's Muslim and Jewish  inhabitants.*

So the "good" Christians wage a series of wars, to 'regain' the Holy Land, 50 years after a religious split up within the Christian ranks, some -400- years after the "loss" to the Muslims.  When the "good Guys" finally do capture the holy city, they then murder all the Muslim and Jewish inhabitants. Whose families had lived there for generations. Who had more right to claim ownership than the Crusaders. 

"Muslim Aggression".  Yup.  Also "Christian Aggression".
Both sides waged war. For power, for wealth, in the name of their faith, but really, for power, for wealth, and for an excuse to rape and murder.

The Crusades make as much sense as the Spanish Army invading Texas today, because they had claimed ownership of the land in 1690.


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## granfire (Jun 26, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Now, let me shorten the time line here.
> 
> 
> 614 AD - Jerusalem falls to the Sassanid Empire (Mixed religions including Christian) and their Jewish allies.
> ...



A handful of Aspirin can do wonders, I see!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> Bob, you are embarrassing yourself in your refusal to tell the simple truth.



I don't think I'm the one here refusing to see reality. I certainly don't feel embarassed.



> it is historical fact (thats #1)not opinion that the crusade were a direct result of muslim invasion into what were AT THE TIME Christian lands(thats #2).



I think I debunked that and gee whiz, lookie there, you go and validate my point right away.


> *you can always play that "but it was someone elses before that" card, and it may be factually true, it is also irrelevant NOISE to smoke screen the truth. Who cares who lived there 100 years before. Thats like saying an Indian can break into your house cuz it was his people's house the last century........i dont think so*



So, if 100 years doesn't work, 400 years sure don't either.



> and as i have already posted the relevant suras where the muslim is commanded to go out, and convert BY FORCE everyone that isnt a muslim, thats 3.



And taking things -OUT OF CONTEXT- justifies the murder of homosexuals, the rape of children and the subjugation of women -IN THE CHRISTIAN BIBLE-.  The -SAME- arguments you make by saying 'its in their book', can be and are made regarding the Christian Bible. Same arguments.  Know why?

Because Islam is a spin off of Christianity.



> I seriously dont get why people, ordinarily smart and reasonable people will jump backwards through thier own *** to avoid admitting the truth
> 
> the koran preaches violence, it commands violence, and it WORKS cuz GUESS WHAT???
> 
> they go out and DO VIOLENCE. Not all, not most, not by a long shot, but a LOT



And I don't get it either. The irony here is, I and others see you as being the one unable to admit the truth.

Hey, alot of blacks commit crimes. Not all, not most, not by a long shot, but a Lot.
Gee whiz, is that a racially bigoted statement?
Hey, alot of indians are drunks. Not all, not most, not by a long shot, but a Lot.
Gee whiz, is that a racially bigoted statement?

Guess what? When you have 2 BILLION of something, a few thousand is not A LOT!
$1,000 is not "real money" when you're talking about the cost of a modern bomber.
A couple thousand terrorist types is not a lot when you are talking about 2 Billion members of the overall religion.

Your insistence on ignorantly using that broad paint brush, blinds you to real facts.






> now to be fair:
> 
> maybe the bible does to, but christians by and large do not go out and do violence. And even if they did, in fact, lets say that JUST AS MANY christians go out and blow **** up.
> 
> ...



And here you prove my point that there is no good you will ever see under a Muslim banner.
1,000 Christian Terrorists = Eh, I can't control them, they don't speak for me, doesn't matter.
1,000 Muslim Terrorists = GAH!!!!!!! THOSE EVIL BASTIDS! PANIC! PANIC! PANIC! KILL! GAH!!!!!

John, if you're going to keep blanket blaming the religion, you only prove your own bigotry and bias.

You want to dig into specifics, find the reasons and rationals behind why each of these individuals made the choices to do what they did? Go for it.
But find something better than "The Book Made Them Do It".

Perspective. Understanding history, the big picture.

That education thing so many are against.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

granfire said:


> A handful of Aspirin can do wonders, I see!


At this rate I'll be mainlining scotch by dinner.  LOL!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

Now, here's a question for our resident "Muslim Experts", you guys who are so loudly proclaiming how big a threat "They" are.

Which branch?
Which branch of Islam is behind all these terrorists you see behind every tree?

Sunni? Shia? Sufi?
How about any of these branches: Ahmadiyya, Berghouata, Kharijites, Quranists or Yazdânism

Which one's the one leading the charge to take over our lands, rape our women, kill our children and eat our still beating hearts?

You experts should know.

Hey, are there any Muslims that are condemning terrorism?
Do they count at all? 
Or are they still "Bad"?



Now, on the "spreading Islam" thing.


> The spread of Islam started shortly after the death of the Islamic prophet Muhammad in 632 AD. During his lifetime, the community of Muhammad, the ummah, was established in the Arabian Peninsula by means of conversion to Islam  and conquering of territory, and oftentimes the conquered had to either accept Islam, get killed, or pay tax for protection if they do not convert.





> Increasing conversion to Islam paralleled the rapid military expansion of the Arab Empire in the first centuries after the Islamic prophet Muhammad's death.


(Source - Wikipedia)

So, Arab armies who followed Islam, as they conquered territory gave you a choice: Convert, Die, or Pay Up.

Better options than Catholic Missionaries gave the Aztecs, Mayans and Incan's. 
They just got "convert or die".


So, back to the 'terrorism thing'


> Islamic terrorism has been identified as taking place in the Middle East, Africa, Europe, Southeast Asia, and the United States since the 1970s.


(Source: Wikipedia)

So, "experts", can you answer the "Which branch?" question?
Or will it be another "It doesn't matter, they are all evil. Well, not all, not most, but a LOT"?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

BTW:  It is a well known fact that the Texas Redneck is considered a bit of an extremist, even amongst other Southern Rednecks. This of course traces back to the US Civil War where Texas made a lot of noise but really didn't do much in the actual war, most of their men folk being incapacitated from the chili farts the 5 years of the war.



This is not to imply that anyone here of course fits any of these stereotypes.
Now if you'll excuse me, this Buffalonian has to go out and shovel some snow.


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## Archangel M (Jun 26, 2011)

The real reasons for the Crusades are not that simple.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Crusade



> It is now impossible to assess exactly why the First Crusade occurred, although many possible causes have been suggested by historians. The historiography of the Crusades reflects attempts made by different historians to understand the Crusades' complex causes and justifications. An early modern theory, the so-called "Erdmann thesis", developed by German historian Carl Erdmann, directly linked the Crusades to the 11th-century reform movements.[15] This first theory claimed that the exportation of violence to the east, and the assistance to the struggling Byzantine Empire were the Crusaders' primary goals, and that the conquest of Jerusalem was more a secondary, popular goal.[16]
> 
> Generally, subsequent historians have either followed Erdmann, with further expansions upon his thesis, or rejected it. Some historians, such as Speros Vryonis, have emphasized the influence of the rise of Islam generally, and the impact of the recent Seljuq onslaught specifically. Steven Runciman argued that the crusade was motivated by a combination of theological justification for holy war and a "general restlessness and taste for adventure", especially among the Normans and the "younger sons" of the French nobility who had no other opportunities.[17][note 3] Runciman even implies that there was no immediate threat from the Islamic world, arguing that "in the middle of the 11th century the lot of the Christians in Palestine had seldom been so pleasant".[18]
> 
> ...



Again though...so what? The Christians are not currently calling for Crusade(Jihad) or running nations a la Iran who are salivating over the destruction of an entire nation (Israel) or imposing religious law (Sharia). Or funding and training terrorist groups for religious reasons on a national scale, with a large segment of the faith not making a hell of a lot of noise in protest.

Where the rubber meets the road who give a **** about 1000 year old history. What is the situation NOW?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Where the rubber meets the road who give a **** about 1000 year old history. What is the situation NOW?



Historical context, and to debunk the inaccurate misconceptions that were poste was my reason for the historical tangent.



> Again though...so what? The Christians are not currently calling for  Crusade(Jihad) or running nations a la Iran who are salivating over the  destruction of an entire nation (Israel) or imposing religious law  (Sharia). Or funding and training terrorist groups for religious reasons  on a national scale, with a large segment of the faith not making a  hell of a lot of noise in protest.



There are counter points to each of these that show Christianity to be a comparable threat to world peace. Many have previously been posted.   Right now we have GOP candidates seeking to amend the US Constitution due to their religious (Christian) attitudes to impose religious based discrimination into US Law.  Again, counterpoints to that all exist. Valid ones, not ones only found on some obscure blog with 20 viewers.


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## granfire (Jun 26, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> At this rate I'll be mainlining scotch by dinner.  LOL!


oye...

the big bottle for you then, Sir?
Will you have your dinner in the study then?


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## Archangel M (Jun 26, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> There are counter points to each of these that show Christianity to be a comparable threat to world peace. Many have previously been posted.   Right now we have GOP candidates seeking to amend the US Constitution due to their religious (Christian) attitudes to impose religious based discrimination into US Law.  Again, counterpoints to that all exist. Valid ones, not ones only found on some obscure blog with 20 viewers.



I don't believe that there are valid CURRENT (yet) counterpoints of the same volume and scale. An abortion bomber is far from comparable to organized and funded terrorist cells. What a GOP candidate "seeks to do" (and would be doubtful to actually accomplish) is not the same as nations who impose the death penalty on rape victims out of their religious law. The same nations who fund and train terrorist organizations. People may want to make them comparable...but thats a different issue.


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## billc (Jun 26, 2011)

I'm pretty sure the Aztecs didn't give their victims the option to convert, simply ripped out hearts and sat down to a nice dinner, kidney, liver and a nice native drink to wash it down...


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## Archangel M (Jun 26, 2011)

And I don't believe that most of the people involved really have any better grasp on the actual history of the crusades than anybody else. Or even care what that history was.  Osama liked to toss out the "C" word but conveniently ignored the role the Moorish invasions played in that history.  It's all a stupid tit for tat game to gloss over the lunacy that is occurring RIGHT NOW.


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## billc (Jun 26, 2011)

the mayans didn't convert their enemies because they sacrificed them to their gods...


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## billc (Jun 26, 2011)

Incans and mayans: human sacrifice
Aztecs: human sacrifice with snacks

So, conversion wasn't really an issue with the early americans...


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## billc (Jun 26, 2011)

Wahabi:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/gulf/wahhabi.htm

From the article:

er Al Saud rule, governments, especially during the Wahhabi revival in the 1920s, have shown their capacity and readiness to enforce compliance with Islamic laws and interpretations of Islamic values on themselves and others. The literal interpretations of what constitutes right behavior according to the Quran and hadith have given the Wahhabis the sobriquet of "Muslim Calvinists." To the Wahhabis, for example, performance of prayer that is punctual, ritually correct, and communally performed not only is urged but publicly required of men. Consumption of wine is forbidden to the believer because wine is literally forbidden in the Quran. Under the Wahhabis, however, the ban extended to all intoxicating drinks and other stimulants, including tobacco. Modest dress is prescribed for both men and women in accordance with the Quran, but the Wahhabis specify the type of clothing that should be worn, especially by women, and forbid the wearing of silk and gold, although the latter ban has been enforced only sporadically. Music and dancing have also been forbidden by the Wahhabis at times, as have loud laughter and demonstrative weeping, particularly at funerals.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

I still stick to my position that some of those in the debate here...lack knowledge of history, comprehension of the same, a sense of perspective, or the ability to see a big picture.  What we do see is a final conclusion "Muslims Bad", and the removal from consideration of all facts that would result in anything other than the predetermined conclusion.  

Are there muslims doing and tring to do us harm?
Yup.
Now, put that in perspective.  Out of 2.2 BILLION Muslims....how many are trying to hurt us? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000? 1 million?
Experts? You guys know this. Come on. You keep going on about how big a threat "they is", so you must have some idea of the enemies strength, distribution, capabilities and equipment, right?
Lets see some cold-hard numbers to put this 'threat' into real perspective?

Or...is real perspective what scares you?

And no, this isn't a request to see lots of headlines. I see them too. I just read other headlines, which puts those in perspective.  
A couple incidents a year, is NOT a vast threat.


And Bill...I meant the choices the Christians gave the indians.  The indians welcomed them in friendship until the Spanish's greed got the better of them.


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## billc (Jun 26, 2011)

I think it was the dinner invitation that initially turned off the spanish.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

all of that horse **** doesnt change the result

right now, who is more likely to blow something up?

RIGHT NOW, who is the bigger threat

if you cant answer that simple question without going into ancient history, if is only because you dont want to.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

> right now, who is more likely to blow something up?



Right now?  Here? Nationwide?  Worldwide?

ok I'll play.

Time: Sometime this week.

Where:
Here, which to me is WNY.
Probably a black guy.  Based on police reports and trends.

State wide? (meaning NY)
"Christian Extremist" to 'let gods wrath loose' on us 'sinful' NYers for 'letting tose fags marry, violating the sanctity of the institution' and all that crap.

You mean by you?
I'd go with either some latino gang bangers, or your local FD making a fire break.

Nationwide?
Christian extremists, various ethnic gangs, and maybe someone who in some way shape or form is connected to Islam.

But John, you can tune all that out, and just see this:

blahblahblahblah muslims.

Because that's what you want to see.

But hey. We are 6 months into 2011.
How many violent acts have occurred in the United States, between Jan 1 and today?
How many involved Muslims?
How many involved non-Muslims?

You know this. You keep saying how there is a clear immediate threat.
So....
Give. Me. The. Damn. Numbers.

3 bits of data. You must have them. You have to have them. 
Otherwise....you're just guessing and making **** up.


Let me help you with some facts.


> A new report found that the number of American Muslims involved in  terrorist acts dropped by more than half compared to 2009; in 2010  twenty American Muslims were arrested for terrorism, down from 2009&#8242;s  peak of forty-seven; in 2010 there were more than twenty plots by  non-Muslims compared to the ten Muslim Americans arrested for domestic  plots; the report supports the argument that fears of domestic  radicalization are exaggerated, and was released after the American  woman calling herself &#8220;Jihad Jane&#8221; pled guilty to recruiting terrorists  to kill a Swedish cartoonist


http://sanford.duke.edu/centers/tcths/about/news_release20110202.php
http://www.homelandsecuritynewswire.com/study-shows-more-non-muslim-terrorists-us

Oh...
"Since 9/11 thirty-three people have been killed in the United States in  terrorist attacks &#8211; or roughly three deaths per year. This compares to  the approximately 150,000 murders committed in the United States since  then."

ok, everyone panic. fear. run around screaming in terror. *yawn*


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

ok, rather than wait and see what Glen Beck comes up with, heres the summary report.



> *News Release -- February 2, 2011*
> 
> *STUDY:  TERRORISM BY MUSLIM-AMERICANS DOWN IN 2010*
> CHAPEL HILL, NC:  A new study released today by the Triangle Center  on Terrorism and Homeland Security  shows that the number of  Muslim-Americans who perpetrated or were arrested for terrorist acts  declined sharply in 2010.  The study, _&#8220;Muslim American Terrorism Since 9/11:  An Accounting,&#8221;_  reports that while 47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for  terrorist crimes in 2009, the number dropped to 20 this past year.
> ...



I now return you to running around panicking about muslims, etc.
[yt]Y9l77RXbIXM[/yt]


----------



## WC_lun (Jun 26, 2011)

Here's another thing to take into consideration.  There are 2.2 billion Muslims out there.  Just for the sake of arguement, we'll go with an inflated number of terrorist within that number, say 10,000.  Of the top of my head, that equates into less than a thousanth of a percentage point of Muslims that are terrorist. That is less than 0.001%  Now due to that extremely low number, the bigots among us would have us believe that an entire religion "teaches violence." That doesn't add up to me.

Just for arguements sake though, lets pretend that 2.2 billion people in this world are being indoctrinated in a "violent" religion.  Does it really make sense to start treating them as if they were all terrorist?  Does it make sense to start treating 2.2 billion people in the manner in which the most extremist among them say we already treat them, giving legitimacy to those insane extremist?  What good does treating that many people like our enemies do?  You think 10,000 terrorist are bad?  Imagine 2.2 billion terrorist because more people start believing bigoted BS.  For those that like numbers, that is 2,200,000,000 people that become our enemies, compared to 10,000.

No matter how you slice it, the arguement that Islam in general, or Muslims specifically are violent doesn't add up.  If that was true, the war that would result would truly be the end of days.  Maybe that is what the bigots are really hoping for <shrugs>


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

If the panic and fear were justified, we would be reading about daily attacks, multiple attacks each day.  Just ain't happening.

Oh and John, I have the answer to "who'll be next to shoot folks".
Teenagers.
2 Teens Arrested After 5 Injured in Shooting in S.F.
Maybe you guys will even get lucky and at least one of them will be named Hassan or Abdul.

Me, I made it out alive, again, from the Halal market I regularly shop at.
I even saw ninja girls there buying cucumbers.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

Bob
you will ignore them (the numbers)anyway, you are famous for ignoring reality when that reality is in any way negative towards muslims.

sorry bro, i love you, but you are incapable of admitting the truth about the muslim threat.

you have proven it over and over.

i get it, you are a nice guy, you dont want to sound like mean old bigoted John

but here is the catch

it isnt bigotry if it is the truth

the truth is never bigoted

the truth is that every month we have another muslim attack or attempted attack on this country, or another one. 

and every time, you throw up the ****ing crusades, in a weak attempt to cloud the truth

there is a threat from islam

how large of a threat may be open for debate, but you wont even admitt it is there at all.

and even IF there is a threat from christians, that in NO WAY dimishes or cancels out the islamic threat, but you always like to act like it does.

the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and your intentions are noble as all get out.

and just as doomed. Your thinking is pre 9-11, and it is as useless as it is archaic.



WC
this:
"There are 2.2 billion Muslims out there. Just for the sake of arguement, we'll go with an inflated number of terrorist within that number, say 10,000"

is errant non-sense

actual surveys in the middle east show support for terror groups at 30%

whats 30% of 2.2 billion? a **** load more than 10K

hell, even if it is ONE ****ing percent, it is a **** ton more than 10K

your 10K is wishfull thinking

dooficity, as it were


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

and niether I nor anyone else is panicking

the ostrich like head in the sand denial of reality strikes me as more akin to panick than simple honesty in admitting the threat does


----------



## WC_lun (Jun 26, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and niether I nor anyone else is panicking
> the ostrich like head in the sand denial of reality strikes me as more akin to panick than simple honesty in admitting the threat does


 
Actually, I think myself and others know what the threat is better than you.  The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist of all sides who would use hate as a tool to promote thier own agenda.  In this case, that does not include Muslims as a whole.


----------



## David43515 (Jun 26, 2011)

I appologize for interupting the ongoing hate fest, but has there been any more news on the two guys who were planning the attack on the recruiting station?


----------



## Sukerkin (Jun 26, 2011)

You have to watch out for the psychological 'poison' in that tho', John.  Acknowledging a threat and going on to treat all of a certain people as being potentially a part of that threat (because you can't tell the good from the bad just by looking) has a price.

To use an example that draws upon much more recent events than the Crusades {and one of which I am personally deeply ashamed (apologies to *YL* in advance)}; because of the fact that I grew up not only under the Nuclear Shadow but also the much more visceral threat of the IRA planting bombs in public places, I am automatically suspicious and distrustful of anyone with an Irish accent.

"So what?", you might ask.  What that means is that because of the actions of a minority of a population, I now do not trust any of them - that is not rational and I cannot help it, no matter how ridiculous I intellectually know it is.

The moral is to beware the negative effects on yourself of prolonged and institutionalised hatred of others.


----------



## Steve (Jun 26, 2011)

David43515 said:


> I appologize for interupting the ongoing hate fest, but has there been any more news on the two guys who were planning the attack on the recruiting station?



In custody.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> Actually, I think myself and others know what the threat is better than you.  The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist of all sides who would use hate as a tool to promote thier own agenda.  In this case, that does not include Muslims as a whole.



I am not sure you know how to tell time better than me. No disrespect, but i dont think i have ever agreed with you

on anything. Your posted opinions dont strike me as being well thought out, based in reality, or for that matter based on anything other than "feelings" and fairy dust. Good example:

"The threat is arrogant, bigoted, extremist"

this is simply stupid, fairy tale wishfull thinking.

arrogance never blew anyone up

arrogance never cut someone's head off

arrogance didnt create a hole in the side of the USS Cole or bring down an embassy

DUH

get out of your theorhetical world and come here to planet reality

here, people are planning to kill you RIGHT NOW

thats reality, and that is the threat


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> The moral is to beware the negative effects on yourself of prolonged and institutionalised hatred of others.




i dont hate muslims

I hate islam

and i would rather go through life being HONEST about the bad guys than pretending there are none just because saying there are is too _mean_........


----------



## elder999 (Jun 26, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont hate muslims
> 
> I hate islam


 
And John, I ask this in all sincerity, with a humble an quesitoning heart.

_Why_? What is it that you actually *know* of Islam? Not quotes from the Q'uran, not historical anecdotes, but _Islam_ itself, and the millions of people who regulate their lives by it.

You say you don't "hate muslims," but do you *know* any?


----------



## Archangel M (Jun 26, 2011)

Who's panicking?
Who's "hating"?

That's the all too typical knee-jerk pigeon holing that happens in these discussions. I'm not calling for anything except to know what the threat is.

The current threat when it comes to large scale terror attacks (9/11, bio-terror, train bombings, etc. not a school shooting, workplace killing etc) is from Islamic extremism. The Lackawanna Six were in your own backyard Bob. Some of them were trained in camps where Osama himself taught (I think some of them even met the man). I'm not saying to "be worried". But acting like there is no threat at all is stupid.


----------



## granfire (Jun 26, 2011)

elder999 said:


> And John, I ask this in all sincerity, with a humble an quesitoning heart.
> 
> _Why_? What is it that you actually *know* of Islam? Not quotes from the Q'uran, not historical anecdotes, but _Islam_ itself, and the millions of people who regulate their lives by it.
> 
> You say you don't "hate muslims," but do you *know* any?



To paraphrase Mort from the penguins of Madagascar:
"I don't have to know to hate"


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

elder999 said:


> And John, I ask this in all sincerity, with a humble an quesitoning heart.
> 
> _Why_? What is it that you actually *know* of Islam? Not quotes from the Q'uran, not historical anecdotes, but _Islam_ itself, and the millions of people who regulate their lives by it.
> 
> You say you don't "hate muslims," but do you *know* any?



i have known plenty of muslims and by and large, they were ok people

thats why i dont have a problem with them

I have a problem with thier religion which is caustic and rotten from top to bottom

founded by a pedophile, a warlord who proclaimed himself a prophet and killed anyone that disagreed

he preached violence, rape torture and muder 

forced conversions

world wide conquests

it is a hatefull, evil, violent belief system

i dont care what good things muslims have done, if they follow that book, they are edifying a child molesting murderer

Jesus never killed anyone

Jesus didnt pump a NINE YEAR OLD

even Joe Smith didnt go THERE

islam has produced as much evil as nazism and marxism, and should be included in the lists of great evils of the world.

but the people are ok, they are just deluded

unless they take that **** too seriously and start thinking it is cool to kill a few infidels

as long as they dont do that, i got no problem with THEM


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Who's panicking?
> Who's "hating"?
> 
> That's the all too typical knee-jerk pigeon holing that happens in these discussions. I'm not calling for anything except to know what the threat is.
> ...



Large scale threats. 9/11 was the only large scale threat the continental US has faced.
Everything else has been small potatoes. Before and since.
In the US.
We went over this with all the hijacking discussions.

As to the "Lackawanna Six"
Yeah, my back yard.
About 15 minutes walking distance in fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffalo_Six
All guilty, locked up, except 1 who died by hellfire missile.

I'm still not worried or concerned.



Twin Fist said:


> i dont hate muslims
> 
> I hate islam
> 
> and i would rather go through life being HONEST about the bad guys than pretending there are none just because saying there are is too _mean_........



John,
I've said there IS a risk.
What I've also said is, it's not as big as you and bill make it out to be.


I work by the numbers.
I want to know who the enemy is.
How can I ID him?
Where is he positioned?
What is his offensive and defensive capabilities?
What is his unit strength?
What weapons does he have at his disposal?

What I get back is the equivalent of someone riding into town on a near death horse screaming about the indians are coming, and then we all sit around for hours wondering where the hell they are.

Sorry. Not gonna play.

I work on facts. Not 'well I believe'.
Here's the facts:
*
US Population:* 308 Million (308,745,538) (2010)

*Islamic Population of the US:*
*1.8 Million (2011)* *0.6% of the U.S. population (2011)*[1] (CIA World Factbook)
or
*2.5 Million (2009) **0.8% of the U.S. population (2009)*[2](Pew Research Center)

lets keep those -actual facts- in mind now.  I repeat (John, bill) these are actual facts.

Here's the report:


> http://sanford.duke.edu/centers/tcths/about/news_release20110202.php*News Release -- February 2, 2011*
> 
> *STUDY:  TERRORISM BY MUSLIM-AMERICANS DOWN IN 2010*
> CHAPEL HILL, NC:  A new study released today by the Triangle Center  on Terrorism and Homeland Security  shows that the number of  Muslim-Americans who perpetrated or were arrested for terrorist acts  declined sharply in 2010.  The study, _&#8220;Muslim American Terrorism Since 9/11:  An Accounting,&#8221;_  reports that while 47 Muslim-Americans committed or were arrested for  terrorist crimes in 2009, the number dropped to 20 this past year.
> ...


So...
20 Muslim people out of 1,800,000 committed or were arrested for  terrorist crimes in 2010.
"Eleven Muslim Americans have successfully executed terrorist  attacks in the United States since 9/11, killing 33 people.  This is  about 3 deaths per year.  There have been approximately 150,000 murders  in the United States since 9/11.  According to the FBI there were  approximately 15,241 murders in the United States in 2009."


So.
Who should I fear more?
The muslim terrorist who screams to Allah while hating me, or the distracted teen driver who is busy sexting while driving on the highway?

Considering how many of those I see daily, I know which one I'm afraid of.

But yes John. 
There is a threat of Muslim Terrorism in the US.
There is a definite possibility of an Islamic Terrorist attacking us at any moment.
It's more probable however that I'll have a car accident or case of the runs before that happens to me.

Possibility, probability, perspective.

You in Texas have a higher chance of Mexican Army troops violating your borders, than an Islamic Terror act.  
Yes, I know. Ft. Hood.  
That was 1 incident.  
You've had a dozen Mex Army incursions this year alone.

How about this.  We defend the country, period.  Making it stronger against any outside attacker, and against inside attackers, gets us both what we really want.
A safer nation.

Oh and John, 20 muslims out of 1.8 million muslims...is NOT "A LOT".

But I'd still grab a cold beverage with you if I run through your part of the state on any of my trips that way.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

yeah...cuz the ones we catch..those are the ONLY ones, right Bob??


come on dude...


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

Give me different numbers John.
It's all I'm saying.

You insist I am under estimating the threat.
I've given you the basis for my position.
You insist that there is more of a threat than me.

You need to back that up with some hard facts.

But. Stick to US numbers.
After all, we don't live in India, Iraq, or DeNile do we.

So, I offer up a rather large and in depth study done at a major university.
I also offer up Official US Census and survey numbers.

Your evidence please.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 26, 2011)

*David43515 wrote:*


> "I appologize for interupting the ongoing hate fest, but has there been any more news on the two guys who were planning the attack on the recruiting station?"



I must say, how rude to ask a non-related question on a thread dealing with Christian hate and violence thru the centuries. LOL

There have been interviews with one's wife. "He loves America and is a proud American" This same guy also had his online Muslim dating profile in the news regarding his search for wife number two, there have been interviews with neighbors in their gated community (shocked, he seemed so normal) and one of them had a bunch of youtube clips that have been making the rounds on the news. Interesting stuff that details his feeling and thoughts, interviews from fellow mosque attendee's ...shock, a quite person that stayed to themselves. This is all from memory...and mine is often faulty...if anyone in this thread is truly interested google is your friend.

Not much in the news about the third person that turned them in who was reported also an ex-con. Not sure if they were turned in out of patriotic/religious duty, or as often is the case a deal for some lesser caught criminal activity...that is pure speculation on my part and trying to read between the lines of what has and has not been disclosed.

I know some Christians that I view as toxic. They are quick to judge others without first looking deep in themselves, they are sharp tongued and bitter, their understanding of theology is shallow, they often feel that they must rescue others by pointing out 'sins', they take their role as moral martyrs and righteous judges personally and feel they have the right to comment on others practices or lack of, with zeal and gusto putting their opinions into most every conversation. I see the very same traits in so many of the anti Christian postings in this and other threads. Not sure if the blind eagerness to battle with what some see as wrong has turned them into that which they say they despise or if it is a lack of moral courage that has to be disguised and camouflaged in their own self-righteous attacks. Regardless, I find the many threads on Martial Talk like this one fascinating even if fruitless. Please carry on.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

we have danced this dance before Bob, and frankly, i value my high opinion of you, and this subject erodes that everytime it comes up.

so, in order to avoid losing any respect for my friend, i will conceed

yep, NO MUSLIM THREAT AT ALL, hell CHRISTIANS are more dangerous than anyone else

just ask Bob.

going somewhere to drink now.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

John,
  You're missing my point, and just admitted you have no facts, just feelings.
Sorry, but that's pretty lame.

Concede. Because you have nothing to justify your hatred.
When I've in fact repeatedly agreed with you there IS the potential of a threat, and all I've been doing is asking you to correct my numbers, that you see as so wrong.


Careful driving after that drink.
You might hit a few hundred thousand Al Quida shock troops on maneuvers outside of town.
Or a cow.
I wonder what is more probable?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 26, 2011)

*MOD NOTE:
The 4 posts in the thread that looked to specifically relate to the subjects of the original post have been copied to a new thread, and this one renamed to better describe what it became.  Please discuss the OP subjects in the new, easier to read thread.

Thank you.*


----------



## WC_lun (Jun 26, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> I am not sure you know how to tell time better than me. No disrespect, but i dont think i have ever agreed with you
> 
> on anything. Your posted opinions dont strike me as being well thought out, based in reality, or for that matter based on anything other than "feelings" and fairy dust. Good example:
> 
> ...


 
Arrogance in that an opinion of how the world works gives a person the right to preach hate, ignorance, or even kill others.  When you presume to know so much about others that you are willing to kill them, that is arrogance to the nth degree.  The terrorist have this quality.  

You have been given numbers and facts that contradict your theories, yet I am the one you say is operating on feelings.  Seems you have it a bit backwards.  I refuse to view an entire religion and those who follow it through the lens of ignorance and hatred.  Those feelings are not condusive to seeing te truth of any situation.

We actually have agreed on a couple of things, including the new NY law.

As far as reality, seems to me that focusing on the relative low number of terrorist and those they recruit would be more effective than focusing on the much larger number of followers of Islam.  Hating on an entire religion does not seem very realistic either.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 26, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> .
> To use an example that draws upon much more recent events than the Crusades {and one of which I am personally deeply ashamed (apologies to *YL* in advance)}; because of the fact that I grew up not only under the Nuclear Shadow but also the much more visceral threat of the IRA planting bombs in public places, I am automatically suspicious and distrustful of anyone with an Irish accent.
> .


 You bigotted bastard!! Just kidding!


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 26, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> John,
> You're missing my point, and just admitted you have no facts, just feelings.
> Sorry, but that's pretty lame.



Bob
dont push it

i am walkign away becasue i value your friendship more than i do proving my point.

dont be a smartass and make me re-evaluate that decision k?

just be cool


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 27, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> You have been given numbers and facts that contradict your theories, yet I am the one you say is operating on feelings.



you havnt presented fact ONE to date

and you are boring me

idealists bore the hell out of me.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 27, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> you havnt presented fact ONE to date
> 
> and you are boring me
> 
> idealists bore the hell out of me.


 

This sort of FOX News rhetoric is everywhere in America today, and really I don't think its TF's fault.

It comes down to what the media protrays..What picture they paint of the world today. Most of this thread has reminded me of a debate that would happen on FOX News...You would have a Gleen Beck/Bill O'Reily Type guy that is set in his own opinion, and then you would have a guest come on loaded with facts that dispute his opinions, and of course, since its the FOX news show, the host always gets the last word in and manipulates the masses.

*Hate is never a good thing.*- If you hate someone, something, or a group, whatever.  You might be in need of some counseling, because there are underlying issues that have never been addressed, and I hope you do as soon as possible.

*If you control the media, you can control the world.*  With the Dawn of the internet, its getting harder for the masses to fall for it anymore, but every once in a while. We get someone who is completely glued to it.  Really its not TF's fault he feels this way...at a time or two I had started to feel the exact same way as he does...that is until I did my own research.  Looking at websites there were not connected to any news media outlet.  We have to put our *feelings *aside and think about the true issues.

-Lack of Education
-Ignorant cultural bias
-Generalization of an Entire People(prejudice)

These and others have stood the test of time...it just seems to be imbedded in the human way of thinking.

Its happened to the Jews, the Gays, the muslums, and belive it or not, its even happened to us White folks too...(IE Black Panters)

*Hate begets more hate.*

Yes, we should protect ourselves from the extremists on all sides.
No, we shouldn't group an entire people together for the actions of a few.

*Holy Wars Are NOT anything new!*-Whenever people die in mass amounts, no matter how long ago it was. It always matters...it doesn't matter who owned what a hundred years ago, and then had to protect the lands they took back a few hundred years later...*NONE OF THAT MATTERS.*  We need to be looking at the loss of human life. What are the underlying causes.

Its not just religion. Its not just economic or Political position.

*It comes down to basics of Ignorance, and Fear.*

So really, its not TF's fault...its just how he precives the world..and thats fine..facts or not. The Media is keep him and those who belive the same Ignorant and fearful...and they are just reacting.

_(**NOTE: Not intentionally mudslinging, just stating examples of the adverage "Right Winger/Fox News viewer, and they coincide with TF's opinions stated on this thread.)_


----------



## WC_lun (Jun 27, 2011)

That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion.  If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense.  While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 27, 2011)

John, and Bill aren't stupid guys.  I will disagree with them, but I will not call them stupid.

Neither one has ever ever called me and said "Bob, what's your phone number?".

And yes, I have gotten that one at least twice from folks.

As to the argument here.... I put my facts out. Others chimed in. People can read through them and make up their own minds about it all, and if my opponents are over reacting, or if I am under reacting.

I'm done. 
For now.


----------



## Steve (Jun 27, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> Who's panicking?
> *Who's "hating"?*
> 
> That's the all too typical knee-jerk pigeon holing that happens in these discussions. I'm not calling for anything except to know what the threat is.
> ...


Is it funny to anyone else that this post is two down from TF declaring he hates Islam?  

This is what happens when guys like TF take simplistic positions on complex issues. It's predictable.  Lots of yelling for no reason, people are told they're boring, everyone accuses everyone else of ignoring reality and no one changes their position one bit.  

In my opinion, TF needs to be on a reality show where he swaps places with a guy who is a strict Muslim in New York City.  The idea of TF living in a Muslim household in a city as diverse as NYC just sounds awesome to me, as would a strict Muslim living in TF's hometown with his family.  Would make for great reality TV.


----------



## RandomPhantom700 (Jun 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Is it funny to anyone else that this post is two down from TF declaring he hates Islam?
> 
> This is what happens when guys like TF take simplistic positions on complex issues. It's predictable. Lots of yelling for no reason, people are told they're boring, everyone accuses everyone else of ignoring reality and no one changes their position one bit.


 
I think that, for every individual, there's topics for which emotion and passion completely override reason. The other day, I was even thinking of listing what it is for each forum member: for Bill Mattocks, it's smoking weed; for TF, it's Islam; for me, bias against youth. Whatever it is for each person, though, their views of the topic are too set for actual discourse to take place. 



> In my opinion, TF needs to be on a reality show where he swaps places with a guy who is a strict Muslim in New York City. The idea of TF living in a Muslim household in a city as diverse as NYC just sounds awesome to me, as would a strict Muslim living in TF's hometown with his family. Would make for great reality TV.


 
I have to wonder if that show would survive its first day of filming.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 27, 2011)

NY and TX don't recognize each others CCP's and NY doesn't allow open carry.
It'd go 2 days.
The diet of Texas chili and bean burritos would do the Muslim in, while a diet of hummus and falafals would finish off TF...if the snow didn't. 
Either way, clean up would be a *****.


----------



## yorkshirelad (Jun 27, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.


 
I'll tell you what mate, I'll fly to Texas and counsel John, while you go to Bradford and counsel the Pakistani islamic community. I'd like to see how that works out for you.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 27, 2011)

Off topic, but perhaps a teachable moment. The mentors were recently asked to step up a bit in the mentoring part of being a mentor.

mentor
verb [ trans. ]
to advise or train (someone, esp. a younger colleague).
---------------------------------------------------------------

So many taking personal shots at others are making themselves look ignorant and small by doing so. Sometimes people do need admonishing, and sometimes the way to get thru to people is thru using insulting or street vernacular, but that is more often the case in face to face conflict resolution, very rarely is it effective in written discussions, other than when used like political attack adds which are used to shore up backers rather than convince those unconvinced or opposed.  I recommend before hitting the submit button writing a second post, but replace the any names attached to any negative response with your own name and see how it reads. Simple exercise but might result in both more efficient deeper adult conversations and less Jerry Springer everyone yelling to be heard but no listening type of discussions. An easy example below.

Original post-



> This sort of FOX News rhetoric is everywhere in America today, and really I don't think its TF's fault.
> 
> It comes down to what the media protrays..What picture they paint of the world today. Most of this thread has reminded me of a debate that would happen on FOX News...You would have a Gleen Beck/Bill O'Reily Type guy that is set in his own opinion, and then you would have a guest come on loaded with facts that dispute his opinions, and of course, since its the FOX news show, the host always gets the last word in and manipulates the masses.
> 
> ...



_test post_

This sort of _CNN_ News rhetoric is everywhere in America today, and really I don't think its _SP's_ fault.

It comes down to what the media protrays..What picture they paint of the world today. Most of this thread has reminded me of a debate that would happen on _CNN_...You would have a _two leftist types_ that are set in their own opinion, and then you would have a guest come on loaded with facts that dispute their opinions, and of course, since its the _CNN_ news show, the host always gets the last word in and manipulates the masses.

*Hate is never a good thing.*- If you hate someone, something, or a group, whatever.* You might be in need of some counseling, because there are underlying issues that have never been addressed, and I hope you do as soon as possible.

*If you control the media, you can control the world.** With the Dawn of the internet, its getting harder for the masses to fall for it anymore, but every once in a while. We get someone who is completely glued to it.* Really its not SP's fault he feels this way...at a time or two I had started to feel the exact same way as he does...that is until I did my own research.* Looking at websites there were not connected to any news media outlet.* We have to put our *feelings *aside and think about the true issues.

-Lack of Education
-Ignorant cultural bias
-Generalization of an Entire People(prejudice)

These and others have stood the test of time...it just seems to be imbedded in the human way of thinking.

Its happened to the Jews, the Gays, the muslums, and belive it or not, its even happened to us White folks too...(IE Black Panters)

*Hate begets more hate.*

Yes, we should protect ourselves from the extremists on all sides.
No, we shouldn't group an entire people together for the actions of a few.

*Holy Wars Are _NOT_ anything new!*-Whenever people die in mass amounts, no matter how long ago it was. It always matters...it doesn't matter who owned what a hundred years ago, and then had to protect the lands they took back a few hundred years later...*NONE OF THAT MATTERS.** We need to be looking at the loss of human life. What are the underlying causes.

Its not just religion. Its not just economic or Political position.

*It comes down to basics of Ignorance, and Fear.*

So really, its not _SP's_ fault...its just how he precives the world..and thats fine..facts or not. The Media is keep him and those who belive the same Ignorant and fearful...and they are just reacting.

(**NOTE: Not intentionally mudslinging, just stating examples of the adverage "_Left_ Winger/_CNN_ News viewer, and they coincide with _SP's_ opinions stated on this thread.)
***************

another example of the test

original post



> That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.



_test post_

That seems to let fellows like _WC_lun_ off a bit easy, in my opinion. If _WC_lun_ were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what _WC_lun_ says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Both are negative posts but one is more artfully written than the other in my opinion. It can be an interesting experiment and growth tool that leads to better more thoughtful writing. It also gives a second chance to avoid embarrassing misspellings (I had to chuckle at the image of a group of black thugs panting).

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 27, 2011)

I was simply pointing out one persons opinion. I didn't say anything that wasn't true.

I don't watch CNN btw.


----------



## Blade96 (Jun 27, 2011)

i  feel religion in general is a threat. 

I don't think believing religions are a threat is a problem, I only think it is a problem if TF or Yorkshire or anyone starts treating people bad because they are religious. Which I don't do, most my buddies have a religion of some kind or another.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 28, 2011)

An explanation was asked for privately (and given) but where one wonders others do as well so I thought a quick public response also warranted. 

I chose the both of the example posts above at random, as I felt they were good examples of issues I wanted to explore. LOL, Not to mention they were on the same page which made quoting them easier. I did not pull them as the most egregious of the thread but merely as good (and as always time is scarce) convenient examples to offer exploration.

Of course people are free to express their opinions and to do so poorly or well as is their wish and capabilities.

As long as I am already off topic might as well go even further off topic. 

_2nd test_

Again before hitting submit, copy the title of thread or the portion of the OP that that is being addressed and place it in the beginning of the reply. Does the reply address the topic or even relate? Can the reply be adjusted and worked to at least address some small part or aspect of the OP. Watch a good or bad politician or author of a book peddling their wares. No matter the question the good have a way of spinning the conversation to the points that they wish to speak on. The bad attempt too but look boorish, the good can do it seamlessly. Like all skills it takes practice and exploration. 

Of course any good conversation can take interesting bunny trails and twists and turns but these should in my opinion be explored wisely and with the OPs topic in mind. If a bunny trail is worth exploring then often a new thread started can continue those trains of thought without distracting or derailing the original thread. It requires a bit of discipline but as active martial artists what part of our training doesnt?

I wish I could say that I always follow my own advice, but truth be told the discipline needed is work in progress but improvement is often the reward for exercising discipline or at least attempting to.

Regards
Brian King


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

WC_lun said:


> That seems to let fellows like TF off a bit easy, in my opinion. If TF were stupid or gullible, then what you say would make sense. While I don't agree with most of what TF says, I'm not sure I believe he is either stupid or gullible. He has the ability to reason and research.


 

Oh and I agree with you for sure.  But as it turns out, the ideal and opinions that have been expressed can all be seen on a 3 hour block of prime time Fox News programming.  So if he isn't watching them, then they both shop at the same propaganda store.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> i feel religion in general is a threat.
> 
> I don't think believing religions are a threat is a problem, I only think it is a problem if TF or Yorkshire or anyone starts treating people bad because they are religious. Which I don't do, most my buddies have a religion of some kind or another.


 

The Nazi party went after a group of people because of there religion too, you know.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 28, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Oh and I agree with you for sure.  But as it turns out, the ideal and opinions that have been expressed can all be seen on a 3 hour block of prime time Fox News programming.  So if he isn't watching them, then they both shop at the same propaganda store.



your Fox hate is boring, and based on BS lies to boot

it shows

and then you go and throw the Nazi card?

dude, you are a walking posting punchline 

stop while you are behind


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> your Fox hate is boring, and based on BS lies to boot
> 
> it shows
> 
> ...


 

*FACT: NAZIS ROUNDED UP JEWS FOR THERE RELIGION, PUT THEM IN CAMPS AND EXTERMINATED THEM ALL DUE TO HATE.*

We should learn from History, not repeat it.


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## Brian King (Jun 28, 2011)

Sensei Payne yelled:


> "FACT: NAZIS ROUNDED UP JEWS FOR THERE RELIGION, PUT THEM IN CAMPS AND EXTERMINATED THEM ALL DUE TO HATE."



Were the Nazi's evil in your opinion Sensei Payne? With the 'yelling' does all that emotion imply that you hate what they, in their belief of Hitlerism and Nazism, did and tried to do?

_Tying this back to the new thread title._
Does the rhetoric and actions of leaders and political/military/religious identities found with-in the different 'modern' Muslim countries concern you while they often preach the same hatred of the Jews and the intense national desire to exterminate them as the different National Nazi Parties did 60+ years ago?

Sensei Payne also wrote:


> "We should learn from History, not repeat it."


I agree, although which lesson should be learned and whether they were or not, can obviously be debated.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm not worried about what someone thousands of miles away preaches.  What's in my own community, maybe. But locally we've seen no problems. (other than the 1 case previously mentioned).  I'm more likely to be robbed by bored teens while out walking to the post office, or hit by an senior driving through a parking lot, than I will be a victim of any type of violence performed in the name of Islam.  

Tons of data here: http://www.city-data.com/city/Buffalo-New-York.html
http://www.city-data.com/crime/crime-Buffalo-New-York.html

I don't worry about being raped, killed or my house burning down however.  Very low probability.

Does the rhetoric bother me?
Yeah.
Does it concern me?
Yeah.
Can I do anything about it?
Nope.

Why worry about what you can not change?

What I can change is how locals view me. So I treat any Muslims I encounter like I do anyone else I encounter.  With politeness, courtesy, and kindness. Like anyone.
I do the same thing with hispanics, blacks, indians, asians and Canadians.
Especially with the Canadians.

Do I ever think "oh ****!"?
Yep.  

Do I ever feel nervous?
Yep.

But I'll be at greater risk in August when I drive from Buffalo to Austin again, than I am at the halal super market. 

So fools can preach what they want.  When I start hearing about an increase nationally in violent crimes associated with Islamic radicals, I'll up my concern level.  What we're seeing now, statistically, is not an increase in numbers, it's a focus on giving higher priority to one type of story over other similar ones based on a single factor.
"If story has islam, bump to top of page. If not, move to bottom".


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## Blade96 (Jun 28, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> The Nazi party went after a group of people because of there religion too, you know.





Sensei Payne said:


> *FACT: NAZIS ROUNDED UP JEWS FOR THERE RELIGION, PUT THEM IN CAMPS AND EXTERMINATED THEM ALL DUE TO HATE.*
> 
> We should learn from History, not repeat it.



yeah and they took that hate and actually treated people bad because of it. So long as TF and Co just have an opinion and don't start treating people bad because they follow islam or some other religion, its ok i think. as far as i know he don't treat his muslim buddies bad because they follow islam, he did said that they are fine ok people.


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## elder999 (Jun 28, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> yeah and they took that hate and actually treated people bad because of it. So long as TF and Co just have an opinion and don't start treating people bad because they follow islam or some other religion, its ok i think. as far as i know he don't treat his muslim buddies bad because they follow islam, he did said that they are fine ok people.


 

I think what our young friend Mr. Payne is trying to say is that our government is only a misplaced sentiment away from taking the same kinds of actions for political reasons: outlawing and persecuting a religion, like citizens clear from New York to Utah did to the Mormons when they started, and the government did to the Indians whenever they found them. Rounding up all the Muslims and putting them in camps, like the government did to the Japanese in WWII, and the Indians whenever they found them.Things like that.....


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 28, 2011)

elder999 said:


> I think what our young friend Mr. Payne is trying to say is that our government is only a misplaced sentiment away from taking the same kinds of actions for political reasons: outlawing and persecuting a religion, like citizens clear from New York to Utah did to the Mormons when they started, and the government did to the Indians whenever they found them. Rounding up all the Muslims and putting them in camps, like the government did to the Japanese in WWII, and the Indians whenever they found them.Things like that.....


 
...you don't mean like the Nazi's did to the jews do you?


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

Brian said:


> Sensei Payne yelled:
> 
> 
> Were the Nazi's evil in your opinion Sensei Payne? With the 'yelling' does all that emotion imply that you hate what they, in their belief of Hitlerism and Nazism, did and tried to do?
> ...


 
I put it in all caps and in bold simply so that it will stand out as a fact.  My intent wasn't "yelling" it.

Do I hate them, no. I feel sorry for them.  Do I think they should be in power again..no not at all..The leaders were bad people, and yes, I believe to be evil.




Blade96 said:


> yeah and they took that hate and actually treated people bad because of it. So long as TF and Co just have an opinion and don't start treating people bad because they follow islam or some other religion, its ok i think. as far as i know he don't treat his muslim buddies bad because they follow islam, he did said that they are fine ok people.


 
Hate Speech is always how it starts Blade. Blaminig an entire people for a common problem. (IE the Jews were blamed for the economy.)  Part of the reason why such words as the N-word, and now the F-word, are so socially unacceptable now.  

But again with Hate we need to attack the true enemy:*Ignorance *


----------



## Brian King (Jun 28, 2011)

I agree with much of what you posted just above Bob, except in our area crimes by Muslims in are under reported in my opinion, with the names and religious affiliations blacked out of local news reporting in the name of sensitivity to our Muslim communities sensitivities. 

*Bob wrote:*


> "What I can change is how locals view me"


I disagree with this Bob. The only thing that we can change is our own views and actions. What people think and feel cannot be legislated or forced to change either by force, coercion, or kindness. To expect others to be respect us because we respect them disregards the history of human interactions. It is in our interests to be fair in our dealings with others because it promotes and strengthens our own goodness not as a means of hoping to bring about change in others, that would be insincere, insulting and unproductive. 



> "So I treat any Muslims I encounter like I do anyone else I encounter. With politeness, courtesy, and kindness. Like anyone.
> I do the same thing with hispanics, blacks, indians, asians and Canadians.
> Especially with the Canadians."



This is sound and good behavior in both of our opinions (I notice you did not include the French on the list) but our motivation for doing so seems to differ. Doing so out of fear vs doing so as a means of trying to better the self. 

Regards 
Brian King


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

Brian said:


> This is sound and good behavior in both of our opinions (I notice you did not include the French on the list) but our motivation for doing so seems to differ. Doing so out of fear vs doing so as a means of trying to better the self.
> 
> Regards
> Brian King


 
First of all I think that everyone tried to better themselves in one way or another. Sometiems we do better ourselves out of fear...but other times we do it just because we wanna, or we feel like its time we did.

For example. We had a biggest loser compitition at work.  I was already trying to lose more weight before it happened...but everyone else was doing it for the grand prize money.  They were doing it for a reason other than trying to better themselves...as were I was doing it for myself...ALTHOUGH...both reasons usually develop better habits in the long run, and healthier individuals.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 28, 2011)

It is true that fear can be a strong motivator, but in my opinion it is never the better, as different actions result from different motivations even under the same circumstances. Others philosophies and experiences may differ.

Regards
Brian King


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 28, 2011)

Brian said:


> It is true that fear can be a strong motivator, but in my opinion it is never the better, as different actions result from different motivations even under the same circumstances. Others philosophies and experiences may differ.
> 
> Regards
> Brian King


 
Fear is the basis of the human mind.  Its our flight of fight system.  Its there no matter what your logical thinking on why your doing something.  So really its gonna be out of fear we do everything...Train in Martial Arts, put on a seat belt, mind our Ps and Qs in public, etc.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 28, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> i feel religion in general is a threat.
> 
> I don't think believing religions are a threat is a problem, I only think it is a problem if TF or Yorkshire or anyone starts treating people bad because they are religious. Which I don't do, most my buddies have a religion of some kind or another.


 
This is my thinking entirely. Most of my family are ardent Catholics. I love them, but I despise Catholicism. There is a difference between the faith and the faithful. 
Then again, if my family began stoning other family members for adultery or encouraging the weaker members of the family to wear suicide vests to kill innocents as part of a holy war, I would probably call the cops after kicking the crap out of them.

I'm currently working for a number of very conservative muslims. They are good people, nice, friendly and generous. I, personally have only ever spoken out about muslim extremists. The people who want us dead, and I don't think that is unreasonable of me.

Judaism, Christianity and Islam have been a major scourge on society since their inception. They have caused suffering, death and chaos in their wake. i have no time for them in general. I have a very good friend in Dublin, who was also my landlady, who is Wiccan. she classifies herself as a witch. Both her and her friends are happy, friendly people, who would do anything to help you out. They're tolerant of other's belief and it is a pleasure to be in their company. I have nothing against their religion, because they don't try to push it on me, or anyone else for that matter.

So there you have it. I have nothing against belief systems that don't oppress others, but the mullahs, the radical imams, the pope, the Dave Koresh and Jim Jones style christians and the dear departed Jerry Falwell and his good friend Pat Robertson can kiss my pimply, hairy white bottom.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 28, 2011)

yorkshirelad said:


> This is my thinking entirely. Most of my family are ardent Catholics. I love them, but I despise Catholicism. There is a difference between the faith and the faithful.
> Then again, if my family began stoning other family members for adultery or encouraging the weaker members of the family to wear suicide vests to kill innocents as part of a holy war, I would probably call the cops after kicking the crap out of them.
> 
> I'm currently working for a number of very conservative muslims. They are good people, nice, friendly and generous. I, personally have only ever spoken out about muslim extremists. The people who want us dead, and I don't think that is unreasonable of me.
> ...


 
Then it is not the religion per say as much as it is those that practice it, how they choose to interpret and use it. 

The Bible the Koran or the Talmud sitting on a shelf is fairly harmless, it takes a human hand to pick it up and beat someone with it


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 28, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Then it is not the religion per say as much as it is those that practice it, how they choose to interpret and use it.
> 
> The Bible the Koran or the Talmud sitting on a shelf is fairly harmless, it takes a human hand to pick it up and beat someone with it


 
Yes, pretty much! I actually really like the above quote!


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## James Kovacich (Jun 28, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> MUSLIMS are trying to kill infidels for NO OTHER REASON than that they are not muslims.


 Actually it's not Muslims as a whole. It's Muslim Jihadists who hate us because they don't want us politicking (made up word for sticking our nose in their business) their part of the world. Do you want them politicking our part of the world? We've been in their face forever, even before the US was a nation.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 28, 2011)

i wasnt, and i am sick of thier ****


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## Twin Fist (Jun 28, 2011)

James Kovacich said:


> Actually it's not Muslims as a whole. It's Muslim Jihadists who hate us because they don't want us politicking (made up word for sticking our nose in their business) their part of the world. Do you want them politicking our part of the world? We've been in their face forever, even before the US was a nation.



and this is horse crap

they have said, plain and clear

they hate all non muslims and non shariah compliant nations

and

they hate israel

we (rightly) stand by Israel, and we are not shariah compliant

so even if we were not involved in politics there, we would still be a target


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## James Kovacich (Jun 28, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and this is horse crap
> 
> they have said, plain and clear
> 
> ...


 
In modern times we, our govt. is in their face. Why, because we can. But if their govts cross the line, we'll invade. They can't do the same. So the extremists do what they do.

This converstaion is like a streetfight where 1 fighter says "what are the rules." You're wrong. Islam is not bad, some people of their faith are bad, a small percentage, period. Their are just as many crazy christians with their own agendas.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 28, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and this is horse crap
> 
> they have said, plain and clear
> 
> ...


More from "They".
See, if Christians would just unify like this.....like how the 2.2 Billion Muslims all got together and formed this evil single mind "Voltron" type thing....Then "They" could battle "Them" and "We" could watch, and it would be so ****ing cool. I mean, there would be explosions and ****, and things would go boom, and some of "Us" could drink beer, while "They" blow up, and it would rock so ****ing much man.

Yeah, thats a bit of sarcasm.



> "they have said, plain and clear"


No, "they" didn't.  Some of "them" did, but not "all", not "most" and certainly not "alot".



> they hate all non muslims and non shariah compliant nations


No, "they" didn't.  Some of "them" did, but not "all", not "most" and certainly not "alot".



> they hate israel


Some of "them" do, but not "all", not "most" but maybe enough to qualify as "alot".



> we (rightly) stand by Israel, and we are not shariah compliant


I disagree with the 1st part, agree with the second.
And...we never will be. That whole "Constitution" thing for 1.



> so even if we were not involved in politics there, we would still be a target


Just like Canada is.  There are so many attacks against Canadians, and inside Canada, I'm not sure how the country is hanging on.



Point black: Anyone who's argument revolves around "They" and "Them".....needs a better argument. Trying to win an Argument By Generalization is never a good tactic.

"Is says so in their book".
So what?
It says dumb **** in the Christian book too.
Smart people in either faith, ignore it.
Small %, don't, and do dumb ****.
In most cases they are caught, convicted and punished.

By sheer numbers, if there was a vast active movement, they (the whole of Muslimdom) could crush the West.  

So, how many?  (I asked this before)




> http://hir.harvard.edu/why-iwhoi-hates-us
> Monte and Princess Palmer&#8217;s 2003 study, _At the Heart of Terror_,  suggests that an estimated *four percent of Muslims in the world are  Islamist fundamentalism fanatics*, and only about* .01 percent (about 120  thousand people) are militant jihadists.* The goal of militant jihadists  is an Islamic state, and the means employed toward that end include  violent behavior, including terrorism. Militant jihadists come from  different regions and countries that have differing priorities.  They  are recruited anywhere from war (such as the Afghan War against the  Soviets) to mosques to madrasas to local organizations.
> If  militant and fanatic Muslims constitute an estimated .01 to four percent  of the 1.2 billion Muslims of the world, the rest range from  secularized to practicing to politicized, but, ultimately, are  non-violent.  Stephen Brooks cautions in his 2006 _As Others See Us_  not to use &#8220;a shorthand label like the &#8216;Muslim perspective&#8217;, or impart  homogeneity of opinion or belief to any collectivity.&#8221; Nonetheless, we  can assess modal and varied views from random sample polling of  countries in the Islamic world. With this distinction between militants  and the &#8220;merely Muslim,&#8221; we can engage in a more nuanced analysis of the  questions of whether, and why, &#8220;they hate us.&#8221;



Now, I'm adjusting the population number to current estimates, and using the larger number to boot. This will help see if there really is "A lot"

2.2 Billion people world wide follow Islam, according to stats.

4% of 2.2 Billion is: 88 Million
.01% is: 220,000.

So, there are world wide, about 200 thousand people we should be worried about.

US Population:314,000,000
US Muslim Population:1,800,000
4% Fanatic Rate:72,000
.01% Jihadist rate:180

The "They" that John, Bill and a bunch of people are worried about...they guys who will actually whip out guns and blow **** up....that's the 180.
The guys who will march around, scream their heads off, and be royal pains in the ***....that's the 72,000. Most of whom will shoot their mouths off and bluster, but ultimately back down in most confrontations.  Or get busted as 'support'.

72,000 is "A Lot".  

1 out of 18,000 IS in fact out to kill "Us".

But.  it's a far cry from enough to qualify for "They" or "Them", which to me would have to be higher than 50%.

Lets look at Texas here.
25,145,561	Population of Texas (2010)	
251,456	Est. Muslims in TX	1% US population
10,058	Fanatics	4.00%
25	Jihadists	0.01%

(the estimate is .6% nationwide, but I rounded up to magnify the risk a bit.)

This would suggest that across the entire state of Texas, there are -25- people who will stop at nothing to wipe it out.  Against that you have all of the Texas Law Enforcement agencies (over 73,000 btw), and Chuck Norris.

The bad guys are out numbered.

Even at the "A Lot" level of 10,000. (Yes, 10k is a lot. When compared to the # of cops it's a 1:7 ratio)  Doesn't mean they are no threat. Events like Ft. Hood show what 1 focused radical can do.

Doesn't mean there is no cause for alarm, that it's safe to leave the doors unlocked, or you shouldn't have your eyes open for trouble. Nope.  Lock your doors, pay attention, and be prepared for -any- problem.  It's highly unlikely you'll encounter an Islamic nutter, but it's also unlikely you'll get struck by lightening...and people die every year from that.

John, Bill, do you guys agree with this estimate? If not, higher or lower? Sources would be helpful if you have different numbers.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 28, 2011)

you WISH it was because we were in thier business, at least that you can change

we cant change NOT being shariah compliant, and the thought of an enemy you cant reason with scares most people, so you convince yourselves it is some BS like "we are over there in thier business"

no, thats NOT it

the only way all those ******** countries and thier 6th century BS leaders (and by that i mean thier clerics) stay in power is by convincing the people that the bad guys are holding them down and living in sin

in this  case, the bad guys are, supposedly, the US and Israel.

so we have to die, according to them

hell, they say so all the time, you just have to believe them

and Bob, just 19 accomplished a hell of a lot, didnt they?

motivation makes even a single man an enemy to be wary of


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 28, 2011)

19, who were here legally.
19 who -passed- airport screening, border checks, etc.
19 who succeeded because -every- hijacking prior was 'take me to Cuba' types.
19 who succeeded in 4 out of the -5- US based hijackings out of tens of thousands of flights in -20- years.

Tell me.
Do you wear a kevlar shirt when you leave the house? Put on a little chainmaile too?
Have bars on your windows?
Carry a gun, couple blades, and tracking device?
Wear ceramic armour jackets?
Glass block windows?

If not, why not?
Because you are at -more- risk of someone rolling you for your wallet, breaking into your house, etc.


I put up actual, real, factual numbers. Numbers based on intelligent research, public records, and more, all backed with sources, citations and actual math.

I was honestly more concerned about the comet or asteroid that recently missed Earth.

John, you're apparently upset. I'm not. I'm rather relaxed. Just spent 3 hours doing a catalog shoot. Was fun. Still not worried about Muslims. Because, until you can provide real numbers to debunk mine, until I see reliable third party research to cause concern, I refuse to let the tin-hat nutters on talk radio be my source for FUD.

So I'll ask again:  Got different numbers? Got different sources?
Share.  I'm open to correction.
Until then, all you have is Straw Man arguments.

Now you'll excuse me, those nudes won't edit themselves.


----------



## CanuckMA (Jun 28, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> .
> 
> Just like Canada is. There are so many attacks against Canadians, and inside Canada, I'm not sure how the country is hanging on.


 

We manage. It's that British Commonwealth thing, Stiff upper lip and all.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 28, 2011)

if i were canadian, i might give a **** wether or not canada has gotten attacked

i am an american, and we HAVE been attacked, so i care about that


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 28, 2011)

So am I. Yes we were. Great. So do I.

What about the questions, numbers, etc?

Correct them, since I'm apparently in error. I await the correct data.


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## granfire (Jun 28, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So am I. Yes we were. Great. So do I.
> 
> What about the questions, numbers, etc?
> 
> Correct them, since I'm apparently in error. I await the correct data.



Oh sheesh, you want like, FACTS?!


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 28, 2011)

> http://newsblaze.com/story/20090221100148tsop.nb/topstory.html
> The following ratios were compiled using data from 2004 National  Safety Council Estimates, a report based on data from The National  Center for Health Statistics and the U.S. Census Bureau. In addition,  2003 mortality data from the Center for Disease Control was used.
> -- You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack
> -- You are 12,571 times more likely to die from cancer than from a terrorist attack
> ...


Report Source: NCS



> You are 8 times more likely to be killed by a police officer than by a terrorist.



Considering how many cops I hang out with....I may have to update my will. 
I wonder if I can bribe them with Tim Hortons gift cards? 

NOTE: At NO TIME Do I, Nor ANY of these statistics, numbers or reports state there is no risk or concern. All I and these reports do is put the threat into perspective, in comparison to all the other dangers we face.



> -- You are 17,600 times more likely to die from heart disease than from a terrorist attack


So I am better served by spending my time exercising and eating right, than staying home afraid of the "Burka Babe" down the block.
I will however keep my eyes open for large deliveries of fertilizer and a UHaul.


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 28, 2011)

Not a large number compared to others but 24 Canadians were killed on 9/11, 1 was too many.

As your allies, we had out Special Forces in Afghanistan early, and have had a battle group there ever since. Not large by comparison, but we are there.

This isn't a war against the USA or the west, the terrorists dont give a **** about us, they want power in their own countries first, to do that they need an outside distraction or force that everyone can rally against, and thats us. We are the scapegoat for them.

Seriously if they wanted to bomb the crap out of us, it would have happened. Look at the UK and the rest of Europe in the 60s through to the 90s, its really not that hard to do.

The Arab spring is terrifying the terrorists, because they know democracy, freedom, education and jobs, nullifies what they want. 

  We need to be vigilant against all threats, but at the same time we cant crush our rights entrenched by our constitutions and common laws, just to stop a handful of nuts. We cant cut off our nose to spite our face.

The Brits beat down the IRA for a few reasons, they took the war directly to those that carried out the attacks, but more importantly, they had an incredible intelligence gathering operation in place and lastly peace was always on the table if the IRA wanted to talk.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> Oh sheesh, you want like, FACTS?!


Something more tangible that the Straw Man, Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis, Weasel Wording, Non Sequitur, etc. that we've gotten in all these arguments.

I mean, if I am wrong, it should be quite easy to find reliable data that will dispute mine, and debunk my conclusions.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Something more tangible that the Straw Man, Digression, Red Herring, Misdirection, False Emphasis, Weasel Wording, Non Sequitur, etc. that we've gotten in all these arguments.
> 
> I mean, if I am wrong, it should be quite easy to find reliable data that will dispute mine, and debunk my conclusions.


Posted this before, repeating for data points.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html
(Limiting to US Homeland, Islamic Terrorists. For outside that, please refer to the link.)
*Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans*



> *1993* *Feb. 26, New York City:* bomb exploded in basement       garage of World Trade Center,       killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist       Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy       charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the       mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is       suspected.*
> 
> 2001*  *Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville,           Pa.:*  hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin       towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the       Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered       2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the       Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group       blamed. (_See_ September 11, 2001: Timeline of       Terrorism.)
> 
> ...


NOTE: Listing is NOT current, and not 100%. Some events are missing.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Posted this before, repeating for data points.
> http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0001454.html
> (Limiting to US Homeland, Islamic Terrorists. For outside that, please refer to the link.)
> *Terrorist Attacks in the U.S. or Against Americans*
> ...


This link BTW, has extensive listings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

You can go year by year, and for example it does showcase over 50 terrorist actions in January 2011 alone.
It only seems to list those events which went on, not those stopped prior to action, so there are several reports NOT listed including the several recent plots stopped in the US.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Now, Bill, John, etc ARE correct.
There IS a risk.

Inside the US, it's not a big one.
If I visit Canada I'm more at risk from Ontario drivers, than Islamic Terrorists.
If I visit Mexico, the danger is the drug cartels, and in some parts gangs and thugs. Not Islamic Terrorists.
Cuba's pretty safe, though the Central America nations much less so due in good part to revolutionaries and drug traffickers.
South America's pretty safe in the cities, less so in the countryside, but not a huge risk.
Safety through out Europe is on par with the US, maybe a hair riskier in some parts, and much safer in others.  
Japan's pretty safe. So is Australia and New Zealand.

Traveling through Northern or Eastern Africa, big risk.
SE Asia, big risk.
Wandering around like a tourist in Iraq, Afghanistan or Pakistan, as well as parts of India...good way to lose your head.
In some cases, this hasn't changed much in 20-40 years.
Egypt and Iraq are much less safe today than they were 10 years ago for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents

If I were to travel internationally, I would be much more concerned for my safety. When I visited Cozumel, I felt pretty safe. I was also advised not to wander too far, not to go down the back alleys, and not to ride the scooters. I saw armed soldiers on every corner though.
I felt more nervous on the I35 outside Dallas. (I still think Atlanta traffic is the most nuts I ever experienced though, though the iced over 401 in Ontario also was a pants dampener.)


Proper threat assessment requires one to recognize when there is a threat.
I do so.
It also however requires you to assess the danger, and respond accordingly.
It is my conclusions that, absent the addition of any new or differentiable data, the risk of being involved in an Islamic Terrorist Attack, within the US, is minimal and that effort is better spent preparing for and defending against a mugger, rapist, or crazed driver. Such preparations will also double as prep against the minimal ITA, should it occur.

Of course, massive ecological, environmental or other such mass-effect attacks, are near impossible to defend against, however all are again quite unlikely to occur.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard wrote:


> "Proper threat assessment requires one to recognize when there is a threat.
> I do so.
> It also however requires you to assess the danger, and respond accordingly.
> It is my conclusions that, absent the addition of any new or differentiable data, the risk of being involved in an Islamic Terrorist Attack, within the US, is minimal and that effort is better spent preparing for and defending against a mugger, rapist, or crazed driver. Such preparations will also double as prep against the minimal ITA, should it occur."



So do you Bob? Do you spend time preparing for and defending against a mugger, rapist, or crazed driver? How much? So many do not prepare at all for any violent situations, they rationalize that it wont happen to them or their families or doesn't happen in this city or this part of town. People confronted with violence often will claim that their was nothing that they could do, happened suddenly out of nowhere, never expected it.... They do not plan and hope that nothing happens. Like countries that follow isolationist foreign policies, hoping that their neighbors will be peaceful. The thought is nice but has yet to be proven in human history. 

I see the argument that you are putting forth describing the numbers, such as they are. Sort of like the numbers on gun violence. How many times has a gun been used in violence, how many times has a gun been used to prevent violence, how many times has firearms been used to end violence. Not easy crunching the numbers accurately. Often politics determines how crimes are reported/recorded.  When doing threat assessments it is not enough to look at the mere numbers. Threat assessment is more art than science in my opinion and will very not only from situation to situation but the two of us could be standing on the very same street corner and come up with very different threat assessments based on not only our experiences but our also our capabilities. What might be considered a threat to one is seen as nothing by the other. So to do a proper threat assessment the person, family, corporation, community for who the assessment is given must be given a weight. Another factor that should be entered into the calculation is what is the cost if the threat succeeds. Example, get caught unaware by a mugger and you lose your watch, get caught unaware by a rapist get violently violated. Not all crimes carry the same threat or cost yet in your calculations you are weighing them all the same, need to recalculate that in my opinion. A proper threat assessment will also take into consideration the capabilities of the threat. For example a group of anarchists rioting will break windows and burn cars but if they kill anybody it will likely be by accident or negligence while a militant group seeking to overthrow the government might be more willing to use deadly force to accomplish their goals. So the willingness as well as the capabilities of the possible threats should be taken into consideration and given weight.

The above is just a few minutes of thinking about the issue. There are courses of study on threat assessment, there are companies that specialize on threat assessment both the type of window checkers and camera placers and those companies that go out into the communities and gather intelligence and assess. Governments have many different agencies that gather intelligence and stats on violence and threats and then many others with-in those agencies that gather those intelligence's and form threat assessments with other agencies and departments forming their own threat assessments. 

I feel your frustration with posting numbers of attacks and not getting any feedback, but perhaps with the above in mind you can understand the reluctance? As individuals we are not required or mandated to do any kind of threat assessments nor are many trained to do so. People can spend their whole life in condition white and never know the difference. Others might spend their whole lives in condition red and never know the difference. With the changes in lifestyles and risks if wrong, some will reassess their assessments after marriage or having a family or having personal experiences with criminal violence. Some will not recognize the threats as threats until they have been educated on them. Not all groups of young men are gang bangers but if you get a MS13 house on your block you soon learn to recognize gang bangers from wanna-bes. That education can come at least two different ways, face to face experience or by doing research on what is going on in the area. It is important and much more to be taken into consideration than a incomplete list from wikipedia. But it is a decent start.

Regards
Brian King


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and this is horse crap
> they have said, plain and clear
> they hate all non muslims and non shariah compliant nations
> 
> ...


 
Clearly Hate Speech.

Also, how can you be a conservative and want to keep sending forgein aid to Isreal?  That seems pretty libral to me.



Twin Fist said:


> and Bob, just 19 accomplished a hell of a lot, didnt they?


 
If your refering to the  9/11 attacks...those 19 were merely patsies...they weren't muslim jihadists...because if they were, they were living in sin all the way up to there last breath....they wouldn't be good canidates to be martyrs..with there strip club visits and sex toy orders, etc etc.



Ken Morgan said:


> As your allies, we had out Special Forces in Afghanistan early, and have had a battle group there ever since. Not large by comparison, but we are there.


 
Wait...Canada has an Army? Not only an Army, but a Special Forces?----lol, just kidding Ken.


----------



## BooBoo (Jun 29, 2011)

You'd think the average American would have far more real and fundamental problems to worry about in the USA than the Muslim boogeyman.  Things like the collapsing debt-saturated economy, the outsourcing of America's great industrial base to foreign countries, the bailout of the ultra-rich financial institutions at the expense of taxpayers, the control of the banking system and issuance of money and credit by a small clique of parasitic financiers who make profits by speculating on and creating volatility in the real economy, gang violence, delinquency, collapsing infrastructure - or the fact that the land of the 'free' has the largest prison population in the world!  Or what about the emerging police state and the increased surveillance of citizens?

Do the paranoid amongst you have any idea how your forefathers fought to free America's economy from the domination of England and English financiers?  Do you know about the Populist movement, about Andrew Jackson's and Abraham Lincoln's struggles against the shadow government that are the de-facto rulers of the USA (and by proxy most of the world )today??

And who was it that mentioned the US' friend Israel?  I have to disagree with Bob Hubbard on one point in his otherwise excellent posts.  Most Muslims (and many Palestinian Christians) dislike or despise Israel - yet that's on a popular level.  Many people here are unaware of the covert cooperation between Israel and certain Arab states (like Saudi Arabia, the main financier of the most extreme and violent brand of Wahabbi/Al-Qaeda Islam).  Funny isn't it?  It kind of puts a damper on your nice clean black and white narrative. 

Did you know that Israel, deliberatly and for 2 hours, attacked the USS Liberty in 1967 killing 35+ American sailors (you can google the survivors' website)?  Or did you know that Israel has the largest and most sophisticated spy ring operating in the US?  Did you know that an Israeli company affiliated with the Israeli government, controls digital switchboards in the US?  Did you per chance pay attention to the 29 standing ovations that Israeli PM Netanyahu received by the grovelling US congress during his US visit?  Did you know that Israel has been repeatedly accused of selling highly sensitive American military equipment to China?  Did you know that an Israeli spy (Jonathan Pollard) is currently imprisoned in the USA for spying on behalf of Israel and, indirectly, the former Soviet Union?  So much for the 'great' friend.  You'd think they'd be nicer given that their survival rests solely on generous American aid, tax deductible charitable donations, soft loans,etc...

Where does that fit into your nice tidy little US vs. them narrative?


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

We need to cut fogein aid completely from Isreal.

and I am proud that my senator, that I happened to have voted for, is working toward it.

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/rand-paul-we-should-end-all-foreign-aid-to-countries-including-israel/


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## CanuckMA (Jun 29, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> Also, how can you be a conservative and want to keep sending forgein aid to Isreal? That seems pretty libral to me.


 
It's not so much aid as a subsidy for the US defense contractors. Most of the aid comes with sttrings that it must be used to buy military equipment from the US.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Brian said:


> So do you Bob? Do you spend time preparing for and defending against a mugger, rapist, or crazed driver? How much?



For me Brian, I've done enough so far. I don't carry, I don't wear body armor, and I don't drive a tank. I avoid 'bad' neighborhoods at 'bad' times, I don't flash money, and I avoid confrontations as much as I can. I've managed to drive cross country several times without incident, and even got through air port security without problem.  Beyond that, I keep my eyes and ears open, pay attention to whats going on around me, and trust my 'spider sense' to know when to move.  No drilling, no living in a bomb shelter, no hanging out with the 'minutemen', no worrying about the red/muslim/dem/flavoroftheday menace.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

BooBoo said:


> Where does that fit into your nice tidy little US vs. them narrative?



Not my 'us vs them' narrative.


----------



## OKenpo942 (Jun 29, 2011)

Good deal! Another couple of vicious animals where they need to be... behind bars. Thanks to the men and women who have dedicated their lives to vigilantly fight against those who intend to do harm to our citizens here and abroad.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

the data is prob right

your conclusions however are pollyanna pie in the sky wishfull thinking

you see a low chance, so you dismiss it

i see a low chance, (and it is a low chance), but i still see a threat.

a particuarly bad threat since they cant be reasoned with. You cant reason with a religious fanatic

Also, i take the next step. I see the threat, and i trace it back to it's source: ISLAM

you dont.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> the data is prob right
> 
> your conclusions however are pollyanna pie in the sky wishfull thinking
> 
> ...


 
Lets get rid of all guns, because, they have to potiential to kill.

Oh Cars too, because they have a chance to hit someone...and people drive drunk...people die. So those are no go either.

Better not eat anything, you could get food poisoning, or worse choke to death...yeah don't do that.

TF, you conclusion to this issue is based on fear and ignorance.  

Allah/God/Yaweh, Bless you.  I hope you pray to whatever God you believe in for compassion, guidence and tolerance.


----------



## BooBoo (Jun 29, 2011)

Hey TF you hypocrite its easy to paintbrush and accuse others but much harder to look in the mirror isn't it? Let me put it this way. Would it be right to deduce that America and Americanss are a genocidal and psychotic nation because a group of extremists (the American government) droppeed a nuclear bomb on Japan, massacred 2+ million Vietnamese in a war based on a lie, or imposed unjustly harsh sanctions in Iraq which resulted in the deaths of 1.5M Iraqis in the 1990s?  This is just a glimpse of the genocide and misery inflicted by the US extremist government around the globe in the last few decades.


----------



## Brian King (Jun 29, 2011)

Sensei Payne wrote:


> "If your refering to the 9/11 attacks...those 19 were merely patsies...they weren't muslim jihadists...because if they were, they were living in sin all the way up to there last breath....they wouldn't be good canidates to be martyrs..with there strip club visits and sex toy orders, etc etc"



So by your theory was Nidal Malik Hasan a Muslim Jihadist? It has been reported he was a frequent and recent visiter to strip clubs before he became a mass murderer.

The type of behavior you are commenting on has been observed in many of those seeking Islamic Martyrdom. There are a number of theories why this behavior is so common in those seeking to become Martyrs. By your comment above I am not sure you understand what a Martyr is or the stark very real difference between Christian and Muslim Martyr's. The basic difference is that a Christian becomes a Martyr by being killed because of their faith while a Muslim can become a Martyr by murdering for their faith. Although it is not considered murder as those killed have no soul. Same word different route.

Many Muslim's believe in scales of justice for their Day of Judgement. Their deeds will be weighed good verse bad. it is my understanding that partaking in Jihad for Allah's cause is second only to a belief in Allah on the good side of the scale and far outweigh anything on the bad side. So advancing Islam thru a great Jihad is a way to paradise no matter the evil that one did prior to the Jihad. 

For some of the Jihadist behaving 'badly' is a means of blending in. Atta would drink with his Western 'friends' and eat hotdogs and such and advised the other 19 (in writing) to also do so in order to blend in and deceive western observers. This of course was in line with the doctrine of taqiyya (I had to look up the name http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Lying_for_Islam_(taqiyya)) 

After attending a short course on unrelated material I was having a discussion with a couple of other attendees, and this topic (why do they (homicidal bombers) often drink and go to strip clubs) came up in the discussion. Both the others being physiologists (one was military but I cannot remember which branch, was dressed in civvies) had an interesting theory. They thought that some of the homicide bombers would commit sinful acts both as a way to bolster their resolve and to increase their disgust of Western Civilization. Once the sin was committed they would have no choice other than Jihad if they wished to get to paradise paired with it is easier to murder innocents if you can devalue their worth. It was at least forty minutes we talked but that is the gist of it as I recall. I found it interesting.

Regards
Brian King


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

OH MAN&#8230;where have all you guys been!?!?!?
I figured all this out here already&#8230;nuff said 

Sorry, It looked like you could use a bit of humor here.
I'll go now, please carry on :asian:


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## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

BooBoo said:


> Hey TF you hypocrite





ad homs are not allowed here. Attack the post, not the poster


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> If your refering to the  9/11 attacks...those 19 were merely patsies...they weren't muslim jihadists...




wave goodbye to your credibility......


----------



## elder999 (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> ad homs are not allowed here. Attack the post, not the poster


 

He's quite right. Didn't know "Mentor" was an elective office, though-souds like you're campaigning, John....:lfao:

BTW, it's not _ad hominem_ if you're being a hypocrite is relevant to the discussion. 

You could say "_no name calling_" and leave it at that, along with_ no tattling_, either. :lfao:

Here ya go:



BooBoo said:


> Hey TF *your posts are hypocritical* its easy to paintbrush and accuse others but much harder to look in the mirror isn't it? Let me put it this way. Would it be right to deduce that America and Americanss are a genocidal and psychotic nation because a group of extremists (the American government) droppeed a nuclear bomb on Japan, massacred 2+ million Vietnamese in a war based on a lie, or imposed unjustly harsh sanctions in Iraq which resulted in the deaths of 1.5M Iraqis in the 1990s? This is just a glimpse of the genocide and misery inflicted by the US extremist government around the globe in the last few decades.


 
Fixed that for ya. :lfao:



> Originally Posted by *Sensei Payne*
> 
> 
> _If your refering to the 9/11 attacks...those 19 were merely patsies...they weren't muslim jihadists..._


 
No.+1 to Brian for _taqiyya_, he's absolutely right-in fact, this is the very reason why John and so many others have such an unreasonable fear-you can't know about even the "good" Muslims, or the Middle Easterners who aren't apparently Muslims, or even the Croatian and Serbian immigrant in your neighborhood who have blonde hair and blue eyes......:lfao:


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> wave goodbye to your credibility......


 
Why just because the truth is that they were part of an Al-Qaeda terrorist cell that were trained by Al-Qaeda, sent here by Al-Qaeda and following an Al-Qaeda plan of attack.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> wave goodbye to your credibility......


 

see I was under the impression that "holy men" on a mission from God wouldn't be worried with worldly means...hence the reason why I made my previous comments.

Brian responded citing his sources, and I conceed to the facts.

Problem is, your conjectures on this board have all been out of fear and ignorance, which turns into hate and Malice.

My credibility is still there by conceeding to irrefusable evidence from third party sourses...Yours are based off of Pundits and there ramblings, with there sponsered websites.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

truther = no credibility


----------



## BooBoo (Jun 29, 2011)

The fact is TF you and your posts aree hypocritical.  You present yourself as an American patriot but you are just basically parotting and regurgitating mainstream news (propaganda) and basing your simplistic black and white views on them.  

If you were concerned at all with the real and fundamental problems that the average middle and working class American (and non-American for that matter) individual is facing you would focus your attention on America's real and fundamental economic and social problems like de-industrialisation and Wall Streets role in ruining and decimating the great industrial power that was once America and turning it into a debt fueled paper economy.  Maybe you should check out the views of some real patriots like Paul Craig Roberts as a start.

But then again hypocrites like you can be found in every society.  You remind me a bit of the extremist Wahabbis that are found in some middle eastern societies who preach morality to the massees and turn a blind eye for the most part to the injustices, corruption and cruelty of the rulers. Wahabbism is a Saudi funded idealogy by the way and may I remind you that the Saudis and US government are allies.    Al Qaeda is also a CIA creation but that's another story that might inconvenience your black and white world view.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> the data is prob right
> 
> your conclusions however are pollyanna pie in the sky wishfull thinking
> 
> ...



So, my data is correct, but my conclusions are not, yet you then validate my conclusion by agreeing with it.

ok.

You do realize that one also can not reason with an out of control car right?
By your reasoning, it sounds like you think the molestation of kids at airports is a reasonable cost for security, and anyway those kids should blame Islam for the nice man in blue touching their peepee and not a botched, ineffective and driven by fear policy.

You also do realize that, if you eliminate Islam 100%, that something else would simply replace it, and we'd still be dealing with fanatics and crazied nutters, just under a different title?

Out of curiosity, how many of the 65+ US school shootings that have happened since 2000 do you believe were caused by Muslim Extremists?

How many of the 1,851 aircraft crashes (world wide) since 2000 were caused by Muslim Extremists would you say?

There are a few hundred cops listed in our memorials here. How many of themwould you estimate were killed by either a direct or indirect action of a Muslim Extremist?

Do you recognize that there is a difference between a Muslim, A Muslim Extremist and a Muslim Jihadist, or are they all the same to you, all equally guilty/evil?

Now that you've traced it back, now what?
What are you doing to protect yourself and family? 
What steps have you taken or are taking to ensure your safety?
Do they include walking around with a mirror on a stick to check under parked cars for explosives, or the purchase of a trained explosive sniffing dog, for example?
Do you swab the door handle and check for residue like the folks at the airport did to my camera 4 fricken times?
Do you pat down visitors to the house, run them through a nudiscan and make them take their shoes off?

I'm semi serious here. I'm semi kidding as it's all pretty ridiculous.
Unless your (generic your) someone who thinks they used JEM & the Holograms to fake plane attacks.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Speaking momentarily here unofficially... folks attack the messages not the messengers.   TF and I have exchanged a few needley comments, but he and I have a long track record here on a few topics, and are friends enough that he knows I'm just giving him a little friendly grief, and vice versa.  The bulk of our debate is on the matter at hand, and most comments should focus on that, and not get personal.

Danke.


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> truther = no credibility


 

Racist = no credibility


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

whoops...posted that before I saw your post Bob..

but for the record..

No one believes a Racist.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Muslim isn't a race any more than Christian is.
TF might be bigoted, but then again, so might I be.

He also has every right as an American to hold his views and beliefs.
I disagree with him, on a few points.
I also agree with him, on a few points.
I also as an American, have those rights.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

someone needs to leash this guy or at least explain the facts of life to him

muslim isnt a race and whats more, i have already said IN ENGLISH i dont think the people are the problem, the religion is

so take that accusation of racism and shove it 

Lookie here boo boo
enough with the personal shots.

Bob,
you are repeting yourself.

low percentage

we got it already


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Muslim isn't a race any more than Christian is.
> TF might be bigoted, but then again, so might I be.
> 
> He also has every right as an American to hold his views and beliefs.
> ...


 

Dude, totally right.

As an American he has every right to say whatever he wants...and by God he makes these boards intresting at times...so yeah like you I disagree with him, ata least on these points he is making on this thread.

but arguing weather they are a race or not is like arguing if the Jews are a race or not...I know many Jews that refer to themselves as a race.  When people talk about the Holocaust they talk about a "race" being wiped out...but I guess all of that is another argument.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> someone needs to leash this guy


 

                      :tantrum::whip1:


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 29, 2011)

TF, since you and most of the board here disagree on the Islam issue.  How do you feel that we should handle the "problem"?


----------



## Ken Morgan (Jun 29, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> :tantrum::whip1:


 leash, not lash....
That's foreplay....


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2011)

Personally, I think everyone needs to cut out the personal shots and flame baiting.   This thread is all kinds of fail, and the good points people are making are being completely lost.   Just my opinion.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

just ignore them, after all, it was all a secret plot by Bush anyway


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> someone needs to leash this guy or at least explain the facts of life to him
> 
> muslim isnt a race and whats more, i have already said IN ENGLISH i dont think the people are the problem, the religion is
> 
> ...


Yeah I am. I have to sometimes.

So let me remind everyone here: Debate all you want, but there is no need to be jackasses, jerks etc.   So if people wish to keep their access and not get locked out, everyone knock it off already.  

And John, I'll defend your right to your opinion because that's what I believe in.
But you could be a lot less of a jerk in your comments as well.


and now, I have to get back to photo editing.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

hell Bob, i am sorry, i guess my standards of polite and yours dont mix, cux to me i have been the model of politeness in the face of personal insults


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> hell Bob, i am sorry, i guess my standards of polite and yours dont mix, cux to me i have been the model of politeness in the face of personal insults


There's only one standard of politeness that matters on these boards, and it's Bob's.  You and I are guests. 

But, getting back to the point of the thread, Bob and others have put some interesting questions out to you.  I'd love to hear actual answers to them.  You don't have to tell us that you think they're wrong.  I get that.  WHY do you think they're wrong?  Can you in any way support your position?


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## Darksoul (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> muslim isnt a race and whats more, i have already said IN ENGLISH i dont think the people are the problem, the religion is


 
-TF, would you agree that out of those 2.2 billion Muslims, that some of them practice their religion peacefully? I ask this because, when you attack a religion, it seems you are also attacking the people who follow that religion. I can point to the Westboro freaks and understand that they do not represent Christianity as a whole, simply a small, twisted version of it, a version that is not shared by the majority of Christians.

-I would also ask if you think all Muslims should just simply give up Islam? Perhaps convert to something different...?

Andrew


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

:hb: Oh for crying out loud it Muslim is not a race of people it a group of people from various races that are follower of the religion of Islam. A race is a group of persons related by common descent or heredity

As much as it pains me to admit this Twin Fist is right so stop being silly and get on with it 



> Anthropology .
> 
> a. any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics: no longer in technical use.
> 
> ...


----------



## MJS (Jun 29, 2011)

Folks,

2 reported posts already in this thread.  Lets stop the back and forth bickering please.  Anything else will result in an IC and a locked thread.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

Darksoul said:


> -TF, would you agree that out of those 2.2 billion Muslims, that some of them practice their religion peacefully?



i am absolutely convinced of it. The religion itself is flawed, evil and corrupted, but just like every other religion, not everyone takes it so seriously




Darksoul said:


> I ask this because, when you attack a religion, it seems you are also attacking the people who follow that religion. I can point to the Westboro freaks and understand that they do not represent Christianity as a whole, simply a small, twisted version of it, a version that is not shared by the majority of Christians.
> 
> -I would also ask if you think all Muslims should just simply give up Islam? Perhaps convert to something different...?
> 
> Andrew



i think most people of every religion follow it out of habit, not sincere devotion

islam is jacked, but not all muslims are jacked up


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 29, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i am absolutely convinced of it. The religion itself is flawed, evil and corrupted, but just like every other religion, not everyone takes it so seriously
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
OK, that's better.... we don't agree&#8230; I was getting nervous

Muslimism is no more flawed than any other religion on the planet. And there were several prominent Muslin clerics that came out and said that Osama and his friends completely miss interpreted and/or misused the Koran for their own purposes and that they also completely misused Jihad.

Basically the religion is fine, just fine much like Catholicism or Protestantism but it is those that decide to interpret it for their own means is where the issues start just like Isabel of Spain used it to get the Inquisition going because of Jews and Moors and just like Martin Luther, John Calvin did for the Protestant Reform and lets not forget Oliver Cromwell


If you read the Koran without bias you will find a whole lot of similarities to Christianity


----------



## Twin Fist (Jun 29, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Muslimism is no more flawed than any other religion on the planet.



nope islam is a cult of death founded by a pedophile who preached forced conversion and sex with children

jesus didnt do any of that

they are NOT equal


----------



## Steve (Jun 29, 2011)

Christianity is a death cult founded by a guy who had a death wish and a god complex (or narcissistic personality disorder, depending on who you talk to) who encouraged ritualized cannibalism.

Sounds pretty equal to me.

Of course, I don't believe that either this or what TF is posting is true.  To honestly believe that the Muslim religion is a "cult of death founded by a pedophile who preached forced conversion and sex with children" would be irrational and crazy.  Wouldn't it?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> nope islam is a cult of death founded by a pedophile who preached forced conversion and sex with children
> 
> jesus didnt do any of that
> 
> they are NOT equal


 
Ahh that's better... the close minded Twin Fist we have all come to know and love.

:hmm: Did I say they were equal... would you please quote where I said they were equal.... and I&#8217;m not talking Jesus I am talking about the things the religions are based upon and comparing the Koran and the Bible&#8230;but regardless&#8230;

I will waste no time trying to convince you otherwise since you have made your decision, no matter how flawed that decision is and you will stand by it no matter how indefensible it becomes no matter how much proof is supplied to the contrary... you hold on to your original flawed belief.

Oh and you are completely wrong by the way, there are a lot of similarities between Muslimism and Christianity&#8230; but since it is likely you do not really understand either of them beyond the superficial and much of that is based on opinion, misinformation and mythology and you do not really care to learn more it is senseless to go further. 

The Chinese got it right about closed minds by the way



> A closed mind is like a closed book: just a block of wood.
> - Chinese Proverb


 
I also like these two 



> Information cannot argue with a closed mind
> 
> The closed mind, if closed long enough, can be opened by nothing short of dynamite


 
And yes I am saying you have a closed mind.

By the way have you ever read the Koran, the Bible or looked at the Muslim religion and the Christian religion without wearing your glasses tinted with intolerance?


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## Twin Fist (Jun 30, 2011)

i do know i am getting tired of your insults.

no one has insulted you, and your entire post was one long commentary on my character

you actually refuted NOTHING i said, instead you tried to distract from the truth of my statements by ridiculing and attackign my character

as debating techniques go, your post was:

lame

weak

lazy

and ineffective

everything i said is true

islam is a cult of death, founded by a pedophile who preached forced conversion and murder

i know this because i have read the book in question

oh, and since we are on the subject of "minds"

a mind, like a wound, if left too open, for too long, is prone to infection.
-unknown

or even better

You got to stand for something or you will fall for anything
-Aaron Tippen


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## Sensei Payne (Jun 30, 2011)




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## Sukerkin (Jun 30, 2011)

I am so stealing that picture!  Very useful.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> i do know i am getting tired of your insults.
> 
> no one has insulted you, and your entire post was one long commentary on my character
> 
> ...


 
 :wavey:


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## Steve (Jun 30, 2011)

TF, as debating techniques go, your posts are irrational, angry, intolerant and bigoted. The positions you put forth are way past innappropriate and into the realm of scary and violent. Your words are extremist, close minded and come across as fanatical. 

I hope it's clear that my words above aren't an attack on you. Rather, I'm attacking your words. I learned this trick from you. Say whatever you want, as long as you begin the sentence with "as debating techniques go, your posts are...." 

Kind of like saying, "No offense" before saying something you know is offensive.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 30, 2011)




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## Twin Fist (Jun 30, 2011)

and back to only posting cartoons...

no actual thoughts to share?


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> and back to only posting cartoons...
> 
> no actual thoughts to share?


I have many thoughts to share, but most would get me another few pages in the infraction book, and it already scrolls down my screen enough as is.


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2011)

*Thread Closed!  This is what happens when people can't play like adults.*


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