# flying kicks for the streets.



## drop bear (Mar 13, 2014)

I mean it should be a no brainer. They are a movie kick not a self defence kick.

But then you look on YouTube. And see a guy pull it off. Against a knife
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sfCBY_S_4Qo

OK but a once off lucky shot does not make a trend.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QQez4jQO81c

Twice?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HItbJp1A1Ls

Three times?

Maybe there is something in it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 13, 2014)

Almost any technique _can _work, given the right circumstances.  Hitting someone from behind when they don't see you coming is pretty much the best circumstance for succeeding with any attack. The question is which technique gives you the best risk/reward ratio for a given situation.  Even though hitting an unaware opponent from behind gives a decent chance of success with a flying kick, that doesn't make it the best option for the situation.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 13, 2014)

There are few, if any, techniques that cannot be used on the street. Even something like a 720 kick could be used under the right circumstances.
Those circumstances might be extremely rare, and there might be other techniques that are likely to be more (or as) effective in the same situation, but any technique you can execute properly can conceivably be used.

That doesn't mean I'm going to spend a lot of time working on 720 kicks.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 13, 2014)

The only thing I have ever said about a flying kick in an SD situation or in the street is you better be damn sure of your target before you try it


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 13, 2014)

Some possible uses for jumping/flying kicks could be if you have to clear an object on the ground to kick  someone attacking someone you are trying to protect while their not  looking. Also if you are getting chased by someone and his friend jumps  out in front of you to block your path you can kick  them and continue on your way, barely missing a step. You can use them  to rapidly gain distance, if you can make the jump for the kick sudden  and without warning. You can also use a jump kick as part of a  combination, for example a front kick to the groin that is blocked and  then jump and kick with the supporting leg which would be quicker than  putting the leg down first. Also jumping kicks don't necessarily have to  be high kicks and you don't necessarily have to jump high to do them.


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## K-man (Mar 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I mean it should be a no brainer. They are a movie kick not a self defence kick.
> 
> But then you look on YouTube. And see a guy pull it off. Against a knife
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sfCBY_S_4Qo
> ...


To me, these are nothing to do with SD. Two are simply assaults from behind a bit like a sucker punch and the other is a strategic move in a hostage situation in which the guy kicking may have been killed if the guy with the knife was determined to use it and the kicking guy didn't have support.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> To me, these are nothing to do with SD. Two are simply assaults from behind a bit like a sucker punch and the other is a strategic move in a hostage situation in which the guy kicking may have been killed if the guy with the knife was determined to use it and the kicking guy didn't have support.
> :asian:



Actual self defence has nothing to do with self defence?


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## K-man (Mar 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Actual self defence has nothing to do with self defence?


Sorry, where was the self defence?
:asian:


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## Zero (Mar 14, 2014)

As said, only a closed mind would say certain techniques can never be used in SD or &#8220;real life&#8221; but certain techniques may be as or more effective and with a lower risk level.  

A mate of mine back in the day who trained in kenpo was a big fan of flying kicks, too much in my opinion (he used to use them in tournaments). But he did use a frontal flying kick when he was up against two guys on the street. He knocked the one guy down when he hit his chest and then got out of there.  He is a smaller than average guy (but was a bit of a hot head). So sure, these things can be used.  If against someone unsuspecting or intoxicated then they can be fine but if against someone who is on to it, you are terribly exposed being all up there in the air&#8230;

_._


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

Zero said:


> As said, only a closed mind would say certain techniques can never be used in SD or &#8220;real life&#8221; but certain techniques may be as or more effective and with a lower risk level.
> 
> A mate of mine back in the day who trained in kenpo was a big fan of flying kicks, too much in my opinion (he used to use them in tournaments). But he did use a frontal flying kick when he was up against two guys on the street. He knocked the one guy down when he hit his chest and then got out of there.  He is a smaller than average guy (but was a bit of a hot head). So sure, these things can be used.  If against someone unsuspecting or intoxicated then they can be fine but if against someone who is on to it, you are terribly exposed being all up there in the air&#8230;
> 
> _._




Depends on how you enter. Rushing at someone can be an all or nothing style attack. But if you are working with increased distances of say a street fight. You may need some sort of really big gap closing technique.


I think the effectiveness of the flying kick has to do with this change in dynamics when everybody is running around rather than stationary that flying kick affords a bit of safety.

I have faced flying knees an you have to be pretty stone cold to be trying g to counter punch someone while they are doing it.


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> Sorry, where was the self defence?
> :asian:



The not getting stabbed bit.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2014)

As it's been said, anything can work, under the right circumstances.  That really goes for anything in our material that we have for our art, whichever art that may be.  I might be able to do something that someone else can't, for whatever reason, ie: size, strength, etc. and the same goes for someone else.  We're not all cut from the same mold, therefore, it's a no brainer that everyone will have their strong and weak points.  

Me personally, I wouldn't want to do a jumping/flying kick, primarily because for ME, it's a low percentage move.  That doesnt mean that under the right circumstances, someone younger, more flexible, etc, can't pull it off.  Tony, IMO, said it best when he was talking about risk/reward ration.  IMO, just because you might be able to kick someone in the head, well, hitting them in the groin might get a high reward.


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## K-man (Mar 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The not getting stabbed bit.


The not getting stabbed bit was because he had someone else to grab the guy while the guy kicking was on his ****. And as I said, there is no suggestion of self defence in that scenario.

As to using a jumping kick for self defence ... "Well your Honour, I was four metres from the guy and I ran in and kicked him in the chest. I thought he was going to attack me. I had no idea he might land on his head."
:hmm:


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

K-man said:


> The not getting stabbed bit was because he had someone else to grab the guy while the guy kicking was on his ****. And as I said, there is no suggestion of self defence in that scenario.
> 
> As to using a jumping kick for self defence ... "Well your Honour, I was four metres from the guy and I ran in and kicked him in the chest. I thought he was going to attack me. I had no idea he might land on his head."
> :hmm:



No rules in a street fight. What works works.

And that argument has been used successfully.

http://media.smh.com.au/flying-headbutt-man-not-guilty-416166.html


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## drop bear (Mar 14, 2014)

MJS said:


> As it's been said, anything can work, under the right circumstances.  That really goes for anything in our material that we have for our art, whichever art that may be.  I might be able to do something that someone else can't, for whatever reason, ie: size, strength, etc. and the same goes for someone else.  We're not all cut from the same mold, therefore, it's a no brainer that everyone will have their strong and weak points.
> 
> Me personally, I wouldn't want to do a jumping/flying kick, primarily because for ME, it's a low percentage move.  That doesnt mean that under the right circumstances, someone younger, more flexible, etc, can't pull it off.  Tony, IMO, said it best when he was talking about risk/reward ration.  IMO, just because you might be able to kick someone in the head, well, hitting them in the groin might get a high reward.




I am in the same I don't really leave the ground category. Maybe I might need to develop a flying knee or something.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> No rules in a street fight. What works works.
> 
> And that argument has been used successfully.
> 
> http://media.smh.com.au/flying-headbutt-man-not-guilty-416166.html



He must have had a good lawyer.


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> He must have had a good lawyer.



Yeah that decision was a travesty.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> No rules in a street fight. What works works.
> 
> And that argument has been used successfully.
> 
> http://media.smh.com.au/flying-headbutt-man-not-guilty-416166.html


Three things. 
The guy was lucky to get off.
This was nothing to do with self defence.
This was five years ago and more recent legislation has changed the landscape.

I hope you check out the laws of self defence before you ever get into a situation where you might find yourself in a fight. Either that or make sure you have one of Robert McLeod's legal guys. 



RTKDCMB said:


> He must have had a good lawyer.


That's exactly what happened.



> Mrs Butcher said money talked in the WA legal system.
> "When you have got lawyers like that, money speaks many languages," she said.
> "If that's the way Australia's going to go - (the McLeods' lawyers are) very clever men, there's no doubt about that.''
> www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/butchers-mum-slams-rough-justice-20090313-8wzd.html#ixzz2w11DT4B1


:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> Three things.
> The guy was lucky to get off.
> This was nothing to do with self defence.
> This was five years ago and more recent legislation has changed the landscape.
> ...




Who has been done for fly kicking people then?

Sure there are circumstances where it is blatantly illegal. I fly kick a baby out of a pram. There is no legal defence. But if the force and the objective is reasonable. Then there is less issue.

Do you feel the first video where a guy with a knife was fly kicked would be undefendable in court?

In a forum where we can kick guys knees out and some dude who is walking around with three knives. The fly kick seems pretty tame

More fly kicks..
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6iBFTIH-h4Q


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## drop bear (Mar 15, 2014)

See this is the interesting thing between perception and reality.

Take that knee kick thread. Not one actual example of a knee kicked out. But because it seems intuitive it makes sense as a self defence move. And I agree that knee kick has merit.

But what have we now four flying kicks used on the street. But they have no worth because we believe they don't.

Flying kick.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=P6t94e_IgDE

Interesting how people think isn't it.


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> See this is the interesting thing between perception and reality.
> 
> Take that knee kick thread. Not one actual example of a knee kicked out. But because it seems intuitive it makes sense as a self defence move. And I agree that knee kick has merit.
> 
> ...


There are many things I teach in karate and Krav that if used inappropriately could land you in jail. In America there is a stand your ground law. 


> A stand-your-ground law is a type of self-defense law that gives individuals the right to use deadly force to defend themselves without any requirement to evade or retreat from a dangerous situation. It is law in certain jurisdictions within the United States. The basis may lie in either statutory law or common law precedents or both. One key distinction is whether the concept applies only to defending lawfully occupied locations. Under these legal concepts, a person is justified in using deadly force in certain situations, and the stand-your-ground law would be a defense or immunity to criminal charges and civil suit. The difference between immunity and a defense is that an immunity bars suit, charges, detention, and arrest. A defense, including an affirmative defense, is a fact or set of facts that may avoid or mitigate the adverse legal consequences of the defendant's otherwise unlawful conduct.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stand-your-ground_law


We don't have that protection here. Until recently we had the law of reasonable force which is still there but now if you have the option of leaving without fighting and you decide fight instead of flight the odds are no longer in your favour. If you hurt someone it is odds on you will also face a civil law suit, even if you are technically in the right.

So hypothetically I am in a position where I consider I am in danger. The attacker comes at me and in the scuffle I 'accidentally' take out his leg. I say I really don't know what happened and the witnesses testify I was attacked. Reasonable chance there will be no repercussions although I could still face civil proceedings.  Case two ... same guy mouthing of at me from a distance. I run at him, kick him in the chest, he falls and hits his head. He now lives in a wheelchair. The witnesses describe this incident to the court and describe how I ran at this guy and jumped at him.  Guess who will be the guest of the State for a number of years.

There is fighting and there is self defence. Just make sure you know the difference.
:asian:


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 15, 2014)

drop bear said:


> No rules in a street fight. What works works.



Your first sentence is 100% correct, which makes me wonder again why you'd post a sparring video that used rule sets and artificial environments as proof for the street.  Your second sentence however, in regards to the videos you posted in this thread, is 100% incorrect.

As pointed out already, video one didn't 'work' as a SD technique.  He was kicked from behind by a man previously wasn't even in the picture.  How did he have a need to defend himself from someone far away, he wasn't engaged with and wasn't even looking at him?  At the moment he flew into the picture the other guy wasn't even engaged with anyone.  Furthermore, the kick didn't neutralize him.  It only knocked him down where he was swarmed by 8-10 other guys.  Otherwise he would have continued his attack...or was it defense on his part?  

Second video, great he knocked the guy with the knife away momentarily.  If he didn't have help though...let's see, he's flat on his back, slow to get up and the guy still had a knife in his hands.  I don't like his odds.  What he did worked only because he had help.  And he was very lucky the other guys actually did help.  I don't think I'd want to count on other bystanders covering for my poor choices.

Last video, cop was attacked from behind by a scumbag coward.  Where is the self defense?  And the cop regained his feet rather quickly and I assume he was probably armed and could have used the weapon had he made the choice to do so.  

None of these kicks, in and of themselves were successful in neutralizing the other person.  In fact, they actually made the situation worse.  In each case it pushed the 'bad guy' farther away from the kicker which negated any possibility of a quick follow up.  And since the kick itself didn't work AND a quick follow up shot was now out of the question AND in most cases the kicker actually put himself in a bad position (being flat on your back on the ground during an altercation is a bad position) I would say each was a failure.

What works works...unless it doesn't.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 15, 2014)

In the videos shown you see without fail the flying kick used as a blind side move.  Meaning that the opponent either wasn't looking or became distracted.  The flying kick would work just fine in that situation.  That is what it is really designed for not a head on confrontation where the opponent is able to see it coming.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 15, 2014)

I have seen flying kicks done in the street a couple of times. The results where on opposite sides of the world.
The first time the guy getting kicked went back a couple of feet , looked at the kicker and starting laughing, saying man your crazy . and then he walked away.
The other time the kick missed  or was partially blocked (from my angle I could not tell) the kicker landed on his head and ended up in the hospital.
I will say it could surprise someone if it landed with force.  The question is how fast a follow up would occur and how much damage the kick would do


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 15, 2014)

A flying kick would work in the street just fine if the bad guy was on horseback, since this is what the flying kick was developed for originally.



And yeah, I'm just kidding :uhyeah:


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Your first sentence is 100% correct, which makes me wonder again why you'd post a sparring video that used rule sets and artificial environments as proof for the street.  Your second sentence however, in regards to the videos you posted in this thread, is 100% incorrect.
> 
> As pointed out already, video one didn't 'work' as a SD technique.  He was kicked from behind by a man previously wasn't even in the picture.  How did he have a need to defend himself from someone far away, he wasn't engaged with and wasn't even looking at him?  At the moment he flew into the picture the other guy wasn't even engaged with anyone.  Furthermore, the kick didn't neutralize him.  It only knocked him down where he was swarmed by 8-10 other guys.  Otherwise he would have continued his attack...or was it defense on his part?
> 
> ...



Because sparring with rule sets and artificial environments is still better than the alternatives. Given you don't accept street fighting videos as proof for the streets. I begin to wonder what you would accept.

And there was only one kick I have shown that was unsuccessful and that kick was not detrimental to the rest of the fight. 
And when you say there are no rules on the street. That means flying kicks that work. Work. And you cannot make excuses that peoples backs were turned to make what worked not work because it did not fit your rules of how a street fight should happen.


 the police officer did not get back up. You are not commenting on what happened you are creating stories about what should happen.

And you cannot base self defence training on stories.


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> I have seen flying kicks done in the street a couple of times. The results where on opposite sides of the world.
> The first time the guy getting kicked went back a couple of feet , looked at the kicker and starting laughing, saying man your crazy . and then he walked away.
> The other time the kick missed  or was partially blocked (from my angle I could not tell) the kicker landed on his head and ended up in the hospital.
> I will say it could surprise someone if it landed with force.  The question is how fast a follow up would occur and how much damage the kick would do




I have seen them in group fights more than anything. Where it lends itself to that sort of dynamic entry. Some people don't pull them off that is a given.


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In the videos shown you see without fail the flying kick used as a blind side move.  Meaning that the opponent either wasn't looking or became distracted.  The flying kick would work just fine in that situation.  That is what it is really designed for not a head on confrontation where the opponent is able to see it coming.




Flying kick face on.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrW-mxsNnM


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2014)

K-man said:


> There are many things I teach in karate and Krav that if used inappropriately could land you in jail. In America there is a stand your ground law.
> 
> We don't have that protection here. Until recently we had the law of reasonable force which is still there but now if you have the option of leaving without fighting and you decide fight instead of flight the odds are no longer in your favour. If you hurt someone it is odds on you will also face a civil law suit, even if you are technically in the right.
> 
> ...




And that is your perception of the law or the reality?

Reality would be showing a case study. Like flying headbutt guy.


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## K-man (Mar 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


> *Because sparring with rule sets and artificial environments is still better than the alternatives.* Given you don't accept street fighting videos as proof for the streets. I begin to wonder what you would accept.
> 
> And there was only one kick I have shown that was unsuccessful and that kick was not detrimental to the rest of the fight.
> And when you say there are no rules on the street. That means flying kicks that work. Work. And you cannot make excuses that peoples backs were turned to make what worked not work because it did not fit your rules of how a street fight should happen.
> ...


I thought we had agreed that sparring wasn't the only way to train but I guess you just threw that one out. The sort of circular arguement we have had from the minority of people who can't see beyond their MMA training.

As to the rules of a street fight. You had better tick all the boxes pertaining to the laws of your state. You can fight within the law and there is a big difference between what you can do in the ring and what you can do on the street, and when.



> A man has been sentenced to a maximum of 16 years in prison for the murder of a man he punched during a Sydney street fight.Adam James Matthews, 38, was jailed for at least 11 years in the NSW Supreme Court on Monday for the murder of Scott Miller whom he punched during a row in Darlinghurst in February 2011.
> The court heard that at the time of the fight and unknown to both men, Mr Miller had a brain aneurysm.
> During the fight, a blow by Matthews caused the aneurysm to burst, resulting in Mr Miller suffering a brain haemorrhage.
> 
> ...





> A WARRNAMBOOL man who punched a teenager less than a week after receiving a final chance in court will spend three months in prison.
> 
> 
> Trent Van Kempen, 21, of Toal Drive, Warrnambool pleaded guilty to unlawful assault in Warrnambool Magistrates Court on Tuesday.
> http://www.standard.net.au/story/71308/warrnambool-street-fighter-back-in-prison/





As to your videos, none have been SD. Sure, you can use a jumping kick in a fight but whether it gets you into trouble or not is the question. And its effectiveness is dependant on whether it works or not. Personally, I would keep it for kicking people off horses. 


drop bear said:


> Flying kick face on.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrW-mxsNnM


I could have sworn this fight isn't a street fight but maybe my perception is wrong. Wasn't the thread about street fighting?



drop bear said:


> And that is your perception of the law or the reality?
> 
> Reality would be showing a case study. Like flying headbutt guy.


What if we use the example of an MMA fighter on the street ...



> According to information tendered in court, McNeil had just left the Punchbowl bar in Kings Cross with his girlfriend when he got into a verbal altercation with two young men and an unidentified boy, who the accused claimed tried to sell him drugs.
> After allegedly telling them he was a mixed martial arts fighter, McNeil struck the boy before punching both of his friends, causing them to fall to the ground, the court heard.
> As the boy ran one way, the two men ran down the street and attempted to hide behind Mr Christie, who was then allegedly targeted by McNeil.
> When Daniel Christie's brother Peter tried to intervene, McNeil then turned on him, allegedly punching him and splitting his lip.
> ...



And the reason the law has changed ...



> Since 2000 at least 90 Australians have died after a single punch to the head. A larger unknown number of young men have been left permanently and catastrophically brain damaged or, as Kaye describes it, left in a permanent living hell.http://www.stepbackthink.org/2014/03/entering-a-living-hell-from-just-one-punch/



No mate. Reality is consulting legal people to make sure your understanding of the law is up to date before you teach things to people that could put them in jail. You obviously don't teach SD, so _your_ understanding is _your_ perception and it is wrong.
:asian:


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Because sparring with rule sets and artificial environments is still better than the alternatives.



In your opinion.  There are many of us here with far more experience that have tried to explain to you why.  Some of us that actually fight violent, resisting bad people on an all too frequent basis (at least weekly if not daily).  I do not spar, I use scenario-based training and this is how I teach.  I would never use as inefficient mode of training as sparring.  And I have fought bad guys for probably longer than you've been alive I would wager.  



> Given you don't accept street fighting videos as proof for the streets. I begin to wonder what you would accept.



Your first video offering in the other thread was a couple of guys dancing around on padded mats.  That is not a street fight.  The videos in this thread are, in two cases a mob action and in the other a guy getting really lucky he didn't get himself or someone else killed.  Not much in the way of proving anything.


> And there was only one kick I have shown that was unsuccessful and that kick was not detrimental to the rest of the fight.



We must be watching different videos.  They were ALL failures because in each case they;


Did not neutralize the other person.
Required other people to jump in to finish the 'fight'.
All the reasons I've already listed that apparently you've missed.  There posted above.



> And when you say there are no rules on the street.



This is an incomplete sentence.  Was there a question attached to this?



> That means flying kicks that work. Work.



Ah, I see.  This was supposed to be attached to the other sentence.  May I suggest the use of commas?  In answer to the question, yes flying kicks that work...work.  Too bad you've not posted video of ones that worked.  The videos you posted are the exact opposite of something that worked.



> And you cannot make excuses that peoples backs were turned to make what  worked not work because it did not fit your rules of how a street fight  should happen.



Once again you're not really understanding what you've looked at in the video or the comments of those with more experience than you.  I fail to understand why you would even try to suggest these worked?  As I've mentioned above;



			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> As pointed out already, video one didn't 'work' as a SD technique.  He  was kicked from behind by a man previously wasn't even in the picture.   How did he have a need to defend himself from someone far away, he  wasn't engaged with and wasn't even looking at him?  At the moment he  flew into the picture the other guy wasn't even engaged with anyone.   *Furthermore, the kick didn't neutralize him.* *It only knocked him down  where he was swarmed by 8-10 other guys.  Otherwise he would have  continued his attack...or was it defense on his part?  *
> 
> Second video, great he knocked the guy with the knife away momentarily.   *If he didn't have help though...let's see, he's flat on his back, slow  to get up and the guy still had a knife in his hands.*  I don't like his  odds.  *What he did worked only because he had help.  And he was very  lucky the other guys actually did help.  I don't think I'd want to count  on other bystanders covering for my poor choices.*
> 
> ...



Sorry, but you simply cannot refute what I've said (and several others) in regards to the effectiveness of the 'flying kicks' used in your video offering.  



> he police officer did not get back up.



Clearly your either not watching the same videos as the rest of us...or your just watching with your eyes closed.  The police officer regains his feet at the 25 second mark, walks over and picks up his hat and then appears to walk into the building when the video stops.  :uhohh:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Flying kick face on.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VyrW-mxsNnM



Flying roundhouse kick used off a cage/wall.  Not a flying side kick used head on.  Plus that particular video game kick is a one in a million shot and not the norm.  99 times out of 100 that kicks misses and or if it hits does almost no damage.


The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth.  Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.


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## K-man (Mar 16, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth.  Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.


Damn! And I bet you don't believe in Father Christmas or the Tooth Fairy either.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 16, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth.  Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.



Well it was a Shetland pony you see, and I had a ladder....:s111:


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

K-man said:


> I thought we had agreed that sparring wasn't the only way to train but I guess you just threw that one out. The sort of circular arguement we have had from the minority of people who can't see beyond their MMA training.
> 
> As to the rules of a street fight. You had better tick all the boxes pertaining to the laws of your state. You can fight within the law and there is a big difference between what you can do in the ring and what you can do on the street, and when.
> 
> ...




You were not accepting street fighting as evidence anyway.  Let's just look at that. Actual videos of self defence and street fighting and you are trying to tell me they are not actual examples AF self defence and street fighting. I am sorry but that makes no sense at all.

You need to stop bashing mma if you have an issue with it fine. But when say a technique is also a pretty standard tma one as well. You just show that you don't really understand any of the styles you are commenting on. 

I have not bashed your style there are elements of it I disagree with but it is your own closed mind that is creating this conflict. You are making up stories.
Stories about me.
Stories about self defence.
Stories about what is defendable in court.

I don't understand these personal and unfounded attacks.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 17, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> The myth of the flying side kick utilized against someone on horseback is just that a myth.  Having lived around horses for over half my life I can tell you doing that against someone on a moderate sized sized horse would be very, very, very, very, very hard.



Why can't they jump off a hill, a wall, a roof or a small cliff as the horseman rides by?


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You were not accepting street fighting as evidence anyway.  Let's just look at that. Actual videos of self defence and street fighting and you are trying to tell me they are not actual examples AF self defence and street fighting. I am sorry but that makes no sense at all.



Street fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, those videos were all of street fighting and not self defense, which was the point that K-man was trying to make.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> In your opinion.  There are many of us here with far more experience that have tried to explain to you why.  Some of us that actually fight violent, resisting bad people on an all too frequent basis (at least weekly if not daily).  I do not spar, I use scenario-based training and this is how I teach.  I would never use as inefficient mode of training as sparring.  And I have fought bad guys for probably longer than you've been alive I would wager.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You don't have more experience than me. I have bounced for fifteen years. That is the same violent offenders on the same weekly basis without the tool belt. So you need to stop your appeal to authority.  

If your argument is that the flying kicks don't work under different conditions than they did work then you are not making sense. If there were people to capitalise on that kick. That is because that happens in a street fight. You know why?

No rules.

If a person has his back turned and that worked.

No rules.

If the guy who did the kick won. Then that kick worked.

As an experienced professional you must realise you don't have to follow the rules of what would work. You just have to go home with your head on your shoulders.

Here is some advice from someone who has spent some time in street fights. They do not always turn out like they are supposed to they can be messy.

The last time I got into a fight.(was a few weeks ago now. I kneed the crap out of a guy. Was holding him for the cops.and by accident the cop handcuffed me. Because he thought it was the other guys arm)

Which is fine because in an actual fight there are no rules and strange stuff happens.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You don't have more experience than me. I have bounced for fifteen years. That is the same violent offenders on the same weekly basis without the tool belt. So you need to stop your appeal to authority.



Perhaps you should read his profile before you decide who has more experience, especially the training section (Began 1975).


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## K-man (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You were not accepting street fighting as evidence anyway.
> 
> Street fights happen. Why would I say they don't?
> 
> ...


If you are taking personal offence then I apologise. Nothing here is about you and it is not about MMA. If people post misinformation or have a go at other people or other styles then I will challenge that. You have told us that you have fought black belts on the street and handled them easily. You have told us that you have trained with black belts in your gym and found them easier to handle than untrained people of the street. You have called other black belts a joke and you have told me that my training is not effective because we don't spar the way you do. I teach self defence yet you tell me I don't really understand what I am commenting on when I challenge your interpretation of what constitutes self defence. And you accuse me of personal and unfounded attacks. Really?
:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Perhaps you should read his profile before you decide who has more experience, especially the training section (Began 1975).



Perhaps he should have made sure before lying about mine.  And then trying to beat people over the head with his own.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

K-man said:


> If you are taking personal offence then I apologise. Nothing here is about you and it is not about MMA. If people post misinformation or have a go at other people or other styles then I will challenge that. You have told us that you have fought black belts on the street and handled them easily. You have told us that you have trained with black belts in your gym and found them easier to handle than untrained people of the street. You have called other black belts a joke and you have told me that my training is not effective because we don't spar the way you do. I teach self defence yet you tell me I don't really understand what I am commenting on when I challenge your interpretation of what constitutes self defence. And you accuse me of personal and unfounded attacks. Really?
> :asian:



Hypothetical is a story. 

I am not taking offence. But you are bashing mma and sports style training. Which is mostly funny rather than offensive. As I multi style train as much as anybody. 

When you start using use of force law without case study.

 when you look at a guy defending himself and then say it is not really self defence because it hasn't fit your script.

I have to wonder.

Let's look at it this way.

I do technique development you do technique development.

I do drills resisted and Unresisted you do combat scenarios.

I spar full contact. You do not.

I do all the elements of your training and then do other elements of training. 

Like you I train with street fighters cops bouncers and soldiers. 

I also train with ring fighters. I also train with other systems.

You see I am suggesting you do not limit yourself to one method. Because I don't and not limiting myself is effective in the gym in the street and in the ring.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Street fighting and self defense are two entirely different things, those videos were all of street fighting and not self defense, which was the point that K-man was trying to make.




OK what is the difference?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK what is the difference?



And.... that sums up the thread. And most of your posts, honestly.

Look, I'm not saying that to be mean or cruel, it's just that, despite your experience, you really haven't got much education in this field at all... and that's leading you to ignore anything that doesn't match what you think reality is. 

From your posts, you have no real understanding of self defence. That's fine... but you're arguing with people who do know what they're talking about.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> And.... that sums up the thread. And most of your posts, honestly.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying that to be mean or cruel, it's just that, despite your experience, you really haven't got much education in this field at all... and that's leading you to ignore anything that doesn't match what you think reality is.
> 
> From your posts, you have no real understanding of self defence. That's fine... but you're arguing with people who do know what they're talking about.



That didn't answer the question.

I fly kick a rampaging knife guy. That is self defence in the broad brush strokes that it gets painted.

Ok in reality it is reasonable use of force.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s462a.html

And an arrest.
http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s458.html

But very few people say they train for reasonable use of force and legal arrests. Which would be technically correct.

They just say they train for self defence.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 17, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> And.... that sums up the thread. And most of your posts, honestly.
> 
> Look, I'm not saying that to be mean or cruel, it's just that, despite your experience, you really haven't got much education in this field at all... and that's leading you to ignore anything that doesn't match what you think reality is.
> 
> From your posts, you have no real understanding of self defence. That's fine... but you're arguing with people who do know what they're talking about.



:s407:


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## Chris Parker (Mar 17, 2014)

You've had it explained a large number of times, but seem incapable of hearing the answer... so I didn't bother expounding what you've already been told over and over again.

But, to take your example, you fly kick a "rampaging knife guy", that's not self defence. 

Is it reasonable use of force? Actually, that's debatable... in order to use the kick, you need to have come in from a distance, and most likely used it by blindsiding the guy with a knife. It might be considered defensible, but it might also look like a form of aggravated assault.

Might you get arrested? Yep.

As far as "very few people say they train for reasonable use of force and legal arrests", where on earth are you pulling that from?

What do you think self defence is?


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK what is the difference?



Watch from 12:57.  I think GM Harper sums it up very well. 

[yt]V7Tp7ma0vFs[/yt]


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> You've had it explained a large number of times, but seem incapable of hearing the answer... so I didn't bother expounding what you've already been told over and over again.
> 
> But, to take your example, you fly kick a "rampaging knife guy", that's not self defence.
> 
> ...




There really isn't self defence as such. It is a part of reasonable use of force. So I would train for a basic self defence. Say I am attacked unprovoked and use force to repelled that attack. Now that does not cover rampaging knife guy. But I can train to defend others specifically just the comunity in general. Both are morally and legally defendable. 

So defence against assault which covers a few more circumstances could apply.

Legally I see rampaging knife guy. I have a reasonable fear he is going to stab people. I can use reasonable and proportionate force to prevent him from doing so. He has a knife and seems willing to use it so up to deadly force can and has been justified in these cases.

Cops have shot knife wielders under the same circumstances. There was even a case where a knife wielder was pinned by a car. So the fly kick is not such a big deal.

The flying headbutt against the cop by the scumbag was defended in exactly in that manner. He argued successfully that he feared for the life of a friend. 

An arrest would be another use of force that is not self defence but could be trained under the banner of a self defence system. Like that thread on pinning your drunk uncle. 

Now fly kicking someone could be seen as assault. But I would have to see the circumstances of a conviction to make a judgement.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

MJS said:


> Watch from 12:57.  I think GM Harper sums it up very well.
> 
> [yt]V7Tp7ma0vFs[/yt]



Yeah but that is one aspect of a whole idea. You cant say it is just being ambushed. There are levels. self defence is a very fuzzy idea.


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but that is one aspect of a whole idea. You cant say it is just being ambushed. There are levels. self defence is a very fuzzy idea.



To each their own.  My view is: fighting is 2 people, agreeing to meet at a set time/place.  Ex: MMA- the fighters are meeting in the cage on a set date and time to fight.  SD: I'm standing at the ATM and someone comes up to mug me.  I'm in a bar, having a drink with a friend, and some drunk jackass decides he wants to be a macho man and starts trouble with me.  

That video that's gone round on round on forums, of the security guard and punk...IMO, that's a perfect example of a fight, NOT SD.  When you're staying there, trading shots, prolonging the situation, to me, that is not SD.  

As I said, that is what I feel.  If you or anyone else chooses to disagree, that's fine.  I'm not claiming that my answer is "THE" answer.  However, I would be interested in hearing your definition of fighting vs. SD.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK what is the difference?



We keep going around and around in different discussions here with people arguing from different ideas of what self-defense means.  Here is a recent thread I started to try clarifying the language we are using.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> OK what is the difference?



Quite simply, one is a choice, the other is not. Can you guess which one?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 17, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Why can't they jump off a hill, a wall, a roof or a small cliff as the horseman rides by?



There is always a small ie. very, very, very, very small chance that some thing would work. (very small)  However, think back in history about the myth of the flying side kick being utilized to unhorse a rider.  Okay, say you are in battle.  Typically wearing armor and carrying weapons.  Why the hell would you ever try to utilize a flying side kick to unhorse someone.  He would more than likely have a sword, spear, etc.  You would probably be wearing armor which would be weighing you down.  So take that into account and it become pretty unlikely if not impossible.  Then say you have no armor and no weapons.  You still have the fact that your opponent is on higher ground on that horse. Better to seek out a weapon, have a weapon than to attempt a flying side kick more than likely into a guy with at the least a sword.  All of this does not take into effect just the size of horses in general and how high you would have to jump probably just to hit the waist of the person on horseback. (all of this takes into account the size of horses in Korea/China and also the size of the people in that area in that time frame)  Not to mention if you do not hit it perfectly that horse itself will stomp you into the ground after you land.  Heck, even if the rider is not paying attention to you that horse might be and would back kick your *** in the air twenty feet away.  I know one of my old horse's would probably have picked you out of the air if you came flying at them.  They are lighting fast and gigantic animals!!!  Now anything is possible...  Just this is such a low probability of working.  Imagine yourself on a small hill, surrounded by people fighting with three foot long, razor sharp swords on horseback.  You for whatever reason you have lost all of your weapons.  Your first choice is to do a flying side kick on someone on a horse who is swinging a three foot razor long object around?  Personally, I think I would be looking for a dropped weapon first like a spear even if the end is broken off!  Now, extrapolate the flying roundhouse we saw in the cage which is a very sanitized area and try to perform it off a wall.  Once again everything has to go perfect.  It is such a high probability that you jump to the wall and fall on your *** or even if you execute the kick perfectly the vectors are off by a quarter of an inch and you miss your target.  Or you hit your target and it does absolutely no damage.  How many times have you seen someone kicked in the head with say a roundhouse kick and it have no effect at all.  I have seen this hundreds of times and also I have been kicked in the head myself many times, walked right through it and punched the other guy in the face and knocked them to the floor.  In combat utilize high probability of success moves.  Leave the low, low, low probability moves out.  Having said all of the above blindsiding someone with a flying side kick is not a low probability move as the videos show.  Just not someone on horse back!


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Quite simply, one is a choice, the other is not. Can you guess which one?



Not really it is fuzzy.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B20uNgcmxok


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## K-man (Mar 17, 2014)

MJS said:


> Watch from 12:57.  I think GM Harper sums it up very well.


Actually the whole clip was worth watching. A lot of it was similar to things we train in Krav but the intensity of their training is fantastic. Made me wish I was forty years younger.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 17, 2014)

*Attention all users:*

While active debate is to be encouraged, it happens that at times tempers will wear thin, or comments (lacking the body language we all rely on so heavily) will be misinterpreted to some degree, or people will just generally irritate each other.
At those times, we find it necessary to remind members that MartialTalk is for *friendly* discussion, and ask that the conversation be kept friendly, polite, and professional.
If that doesn't work, we whack people with a big stick. Let's avoid that, shall we? 

Thank you.
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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2014)

MJS said:


> I would be interested in hearing your definition of fighting vs. SD.



I had some interested discussion with my guys yesterday. Here were 2 different personal experienced that one of my guys had that may define the difference.

SD - He walked in an alley, someone attacked him. He use his wrestling skill to control him. His opponent attacked him 3 times. He was successfully controlled his opponent's all 3 times. His opponent lose confidence and interest. The fight ended there and nobody got hurt.

fighting - He got into a fight. he punched at his opponent's face and broke his opponent's nose. Even if his opponent didn't feel like to continue that fight. His opponent fought back with everything he got. the fought got into very ugly.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

Flying kick might be used as a blindside a lot.

But there seems to be a lot of opportunities to blindside people as well.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nity03Gj2cg


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2014)

Your opponent's 45 degree downward flying side kick (with all his body weight behind it), aiming at your leading leg knee joint can be the most scary entering strategy that your opponent applies on you. Just to think that a 200 lb of weight is going to drop on your knee joint, it will put you in "defense" mode and that's for sure.


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## drop bear (Mar 17, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Your opponent's 45 degree downward flying side kick (with all his body weight behind it), aiming at your leading leg knee joint can be the most scary entering strategy that your opponent applies on you. Just to think that a 200 lb of weight is going to drop on your knee joint, it will put you in "defense" mode and that's for sure.



Which is I think the thing. 

There is a reason why people don't shoot in on head kicks. And that is because the risk is generally too great. So a fly kick generally forces a defensive movement rather than a counter movement.

Forcing a defensive movement can give you a free opening. So that even if the kick does not pay off In a fight ending move. It pays off in a set up.

As a method of covering fifteen Meters and then engaging people it has its strengths.

You don't get much counter target. Eg I run in and punch. My head is exposed for a counter punch. I crib forwards in stance I am open to a blind side attack. I run that is a hard target to hit. And they have to side step and re enter to engage me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Forcing a defensive movement can give you a free opening.


The integration of striking and grappling is to use your

- kick to set up your punch,
- punch to set up your clinch,
- clinch to set up your throw,
- throw to set up your ground work (or follow on strike).

A kick can be just your 1st step "set up". There are many steps after that. Here is a good example.


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## MJS (Mar 18, 2014)

K-man said:


> Actually the whole clip was worth watching. A lot of it was similar to things we train in Krav but the intensity of their training is fantastic. Made me wish I was forty years younger.



Yes, it was a very good clip! If there was a Kaju school near me or if I lived in a state that had one, I'd be there is a heartbeat!


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## Lone Wolf (Mar 20, 2014)

Half related, i know it can't be taken seriously and the kids had no idea what they are doing but still it's nice to see something fancy actually work every so often xD 



However, what they were doing is ridiculous as nearly anything could have happened.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Flying kick might be used as a blindside a lot.
> 
> But there seems to be a lot of opportunities to blindside people as well.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nity03Gj2cg



That guy is lucky he did not break something like a wrist/arm on the way down or land on the back of his head.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2014)

drop bear said:


> More fly kicks..http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6iBFTIH-h4Q



Often the best fly kick is to kick someone in the fly (zipper).


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> That guy is lucky he did not break something like a wrist/arm on the way down or land on the back of his head.



Haven't come across a double ko from one yet.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 22, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Haven't come across a double ko from one yet.



I'm really not sure the point your trying to make, or if you're even trying to make a point.  It almost seems you're just trying to run up you post count to get to the next belt level.  It seems like you spend an inordinate amount of time on YT.  Your latest video offering isn't a self defense situation either.  It is one clown kicking another clown from the side and not even doing a good job because he lands on his butt.  All the while they're in the middle of traffic.  And the guy he kicked got back up anyway.  So we have;

Ineffective kick...check.
Piss poor situational awareness...check.
Bad location to have a brawl...check.
No self defense involved...check.

So are you making a point or trying to run up the post count?


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## MJS (Mar 22, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm really not sure the point your trying to make, or if you're even trying to make a point.  It almost seems you're just trying to run up you post count to get to the next belt level.  It seems like you spend an inordinate amount of time on YT.  Your latest video offering isn't a self defense situation either.  It is one clown kicking another clown from the side and not even doing a good job because he lands on his butt.  All the while they're in the middle of traffic.  And the guy he kicked got back up anyway.  So we have;
> 
> Ineffective kick...check.
> Piss poor situational awareness...check.
> ...



LOL, you took the words right out of my mouth.  IMHO, YT does not equal what works/doesn't work.  I saw nothing but low life pieces of **** in that last clip, most of which had no skill.


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