# Woo Woo moments in Bujinkan



## Don Roley (Mar 9, 2005)

There used to be a guy who lived in Japan by the name of Luke Molitor. He is now in Dallas area, but he used train under Hiroshi Nagase and other teachers with me.

I got an e-mail from him a while back after one of his students mentioned he had been shot at. The story he told was that he was walking down the street when he suddenly got a very bad feeling and his body made a cross step of his line of walking without thinging. Just then he heard a shot and when he looked he saw a guy he had never seen in an unknown car startt to speed off. If he had not moved when he did, he may be dead right now.

I told the story to Nagase and he praised Molitor saying that he had always tried to attract students that were serious and not dependent on fame or recognition. He said Molitor was one of the few students who had made the effort to come to Japan and learn all he could from the best teachers instead of setting himself up as a ninjutsu master. He told the new students that he did not want a lot of students but was proud of the few who had lasted like Molitor and understood what he was trying to teach. The fact that Molitor survived an attack like that was proof that he had done soem good in his life as a teacher.

I have always distrusted people that say that if you do what they say you will get powers that cannot be measured under labratory conditions. When someone pointed out that I train in the Bujinkan where you have to dodge a strike you can't see to get to fifth dan I had to say that while I may not have the answer to everything- I refuse to use that as a reason to accept other people's explinations. The fifth dan test is a fact. The reason why people pass it is not explained and no one has to accept any type of specific training or world view.

I was just wondering how many weird stories like Molitor's there are out there. Again, I reject any explination as to _why_ things went as they did unless they can be proved under the requirements of the scientific method. Any stories would be appreciated.


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## Kizaru (Mar 9, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I was just wondering how many weird stories ...are out there.


I once had one of the senior Japanese shihan hand me a beer out of the back of his van...I thought that was pretty weird and unexplainable by scientific parameters...
:asian:


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## Cryozombie (Mar 9, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I was just wondering how many weird stories like Molitor's there are out there. Again, I reject any explination as to _why_ things went as they did unless they can be proved under the requirements of the scientific method. Any stories would be appreciated.


You will forgive me for not knowing all the Details, but Shihan Ed Martin Shared a story about a Bujinkan Student/Instructor (I forget which) being in a big park in CA and having an increasingly bad feeling about somthing, and he insisted they leave, and there was a severe earthquake shortly after they left and a lot of people there were killed...


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## Shizen Shigoku (Mar 9, 2005)

That's a pretty scary story, Don. I'm wondering who would want to shoot at Mr. Molitor. Has he made any enemies? Do you know if he was just a random victim, or was someone else the intended victim, and he happend to be in a stray bullet cross-fire zone?

Either way, I'm glad nothing interrupted his instincts, and he wasn't hurt.

I have a personal story to share:

I was at a party at a friend's house that went late into the night. I had originally planned to just crash there to spend the night, but for some strange reason I decided to go home even though the party was still in full swing, and people wanted me to stay. 

I walked home, and when I got there I chided myself for being a 'party-pooper' and kept telling myself that I probably should have stayed and enjoyed the party a little longer, but I did feel very warm, safe and comfortable at home.

The next day, I found out that some people tried to break in to my friend's house to steal stereo equipment, but received a nice beat-down from the party people. Some of my friends got pretty hurt - a broken arm for one, another was cut with a knife - and I sometimes think that I could've helped out were I there, but then again I'm sure I could've been seriously hurt myself. It was at a time in my life when I had more confidence and bravado than I did martial skill, and I'm sure I would've tried something stupid.

Sensed danger, or just lucky coincidence? I don't know, but similar things have happened to me on several occasions since I begain Bujinkan training.


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## Don Roley (Mar 10, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> That's a pretty scary story, Don. I'm wondering who would want to shoot at Mr. Molitor. Has he made any enemies? Do you know if he was just a random victim, or was someone else the intended victim, and he happend to be in a stray bullet cross-fire zone?



He does not know. Violence does not happen in a vacum, but there may be things that just do not go right in people's life. Maybe his lover has a stalker or ex boyfriend he has never met. Maybe he resembles someone who has a vicious ex-boyfriend. He does not know.

I am just glad he is safe. If he were not around, I would have one less person to tease and bring me Bohemia Beer.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 10, 2005)

Then of course there's Nagato sensei, who supposedly had a bad feeling about and decided to stay home from a mission to South America on behalf of the US government, the very same mission in which Michael D. Echanis was killed in a plane crash...


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## Don Roley (Mar 18, 2005)

Follow onto the case iinvolving Luke Molitor....kind of...

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/03/18/BAGR6BR9LS1.DTL

The above case has nothing to do with Molitor, it is not even in the same state. But it reinforces the proof that violence can hit you from out of nowhere.

Hey, Molitor may have a lot of enemies. I have seen nasty things written about him by people whom I consider to be not quite sane. It could be a case of mistaken identity. Or some guy decided to see what a thrill he could get by killing a random stranger.

In any case.... let's be carefull out there.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 19, 2005)

Yep, that's a weird one.



> Without saying anything, a woman believed to be 17 to 20 years old hacked the victim's neck with a knife and then, accompanied by another young woman, got into a light blue BMW M3 convertible and sped away, Officer Joe Okies said.
> 
> "The victim did not know her attackers," Okies said. "No words were exchanged between the victim and her attackers prior to the stabbing.''



Joe Okies is the Berkeley PD's official spokesman/media relations guy, and we saw him discussing this on TV. He looked all spiffy in his uniform, which was amusing for us as we're accustomed to mostly seeing him in street clothes or a black dogi depending on which night's class he's in.  :supcool:


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## Shogun (Mar 26, 2005)

Yeah, I remember making a comment that had something to do with people being assassinated. I said it doesnt happen to random people......then this kinda stuff pops up, and really shuts my mouth (or in this case, fingers) now doesn it?


KE


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## Dale Seago (Mar 27, 2005)

Turns out the attacker was 16 years old, using an 8-inch butcher knife.

What's even more bizarre is that it turns out the other female accompanying her is a county mental health counselor:


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## Shogun (Mar 27, 2005)

> Officer Joe Okies


 If you say his name together, its like "jokies".



I'm tired.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 27, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> If you say his name together, its like "jokies".



And, in fact, his email address is "jokies@(his ISP)"


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## Shogun (Mar 28, 2005)

> And, in fact, his email address is "jokies@(his ISP)"


Yes! Its not just me!

When I was in high school, there was this guy named price fisher. In the computer system, our names were backwards (last name first).

Naturally, he got a lot of crap for that.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 28, 2005)

Yeah, I always said If I have kids I am naming them Ugly and Stupid

That way when they write their names Last Name First, First name last, it will read "Boyer Ugly" and "Boyer Stupid"

Haha.


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## Elizium (Apr 8, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> You will forgive me for not knowing all the Details, but Shihan Ed Martin Shared a story about a Bujinkan Student/Instructor (I forget which) being in a big park in CA and having an increasingly bad feeling about somthing, and he insisted they leave, and there was a severe earthquake shortly after they left and a lot of people there were killed...


 Ed Martin brought out a VCD on knife with this story on there.  It came under story 2 in the list to click on for quick reference.

 I am wondering if other systems outside of the X-kans also have the woo woo element to their life?  If it is just the kans, then it must be our training.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 8, 2005)

I dont know if this counts as woo woo moments, but I have been having "psychic" experiences...  this is NOT normal for me, its kinda weird...

 I was on my Bike on a winding road the other day going too fast, i started to cross the center line and was like "Oh hell that Van is gonna hit me" but there was no van, untill i went AROUND the turn and a minivan was flying up the road and just missed me.

 the next night I was riding home and I saw a truck that made me think of a friends truck.  I thought to myself, "I wonder why he's at my house..." and then, "Nah thats stupid, no one is home, why would he be there" and when I got home, he was sitting in my driveway...

 :idunno:


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## Bigshadow (Apr 14, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> Ed Martin brought out a VCD on knife with this story on there. It came under story 2 in the list to click on for quick reference.
> 
> I am wondering if other systems outside of the X-kans also have the woo woo element to their life? If it is just the kans, then it must be our training.


 I wouldn't be surprised if others have similar stories. It happens all the time. Everyone has the ability, just most are not "Aware" of it. Indeed, I think it is our training that makes us relax enough to be aware of the subtle feelings that we experience during various situations. For example during training, our eyes can decieve us but our feelings generally don't. For instance, think about "when should I move?". Well they say "Wait for the attack?" they also say "Move when the attacker is committed, but before he moves...". Often times this confuses people. I think they are both one and the same. The attack doesn't begin with movement, it begins with a thought. I think early on in training our eyes decieve us in that we haven't seen movement, but our bodies have sensed it, but we ignore it because we see nothing that merits that feeling. That is one of the many reasons why we must relax. Being tense is analogous to "white noise", which interrupts our senses.

  Anyway, sorry for rambling, my point was everyone has this ability if their human )), but most have trained (socially/environmentally) themselves to ignore it.


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## Elizium (Apr 14, 2005)

It seems in part to be in my eyes, a very basic and mistuned part of basic survival.  Police, Military and the kans seem to develop this form of subtle sensing of danger to a point where they are able to react without being hurt.  It is a strange and unmeasured force that for some reason, works.


I wonder what Soke Hatsumi has said about this in the past.  The feeling of danger and to pull yourself out of it.

But to be honest, this woo-woo stuff is to me a double edged sword.  It is mystifying to us Kyu and Sho dan grades, yet it also is an important part of what makes the kans unique.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 14, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> It seems in part to be in my eyes, a very basic and mistuned part of basic survival. Police, Military and the kans seem to develop this form of subtle sensing of danger to a point where they are able to react without being hurt.


 It really isn't "reacting" it is "proacting". Our training is typically "proactive" rather than "reactive". But appears to be "reactive". Hope that makes sense. The military and police by and large are "reactive". That is why the basic hand to hand combat for the soldiers are techniques that require the use of the largest muscles of the body, which are the last ones people lose control of during a life threatening situation or a panic (fight or flight) situation. Our training is to relax in the face of danger which gives us the finer motor controls of the body (for one thing). Albeit, this type of training takes far longer to internalize than does Police Academy or Boot camp hand to hand.



			
				Elizium said:
			
		

> It is a strange and unmeasured force that for some reason, works.
> 
> I wonder what Soke Hatsumi has said about this in the past.  The feeling of danger and to pull yourself out of it.
> 
> But to be honest, this woo-woo stuff is to me a double edged sword. It is mystifying to us Kyu and Sho dan grades, yet it also is an important part of what makes the kans unique.


 In an effort to use science to explain this, the following is my theory. Everything on this planet and in the universe at the most basic molecular level has one thing in common (that we know of). Electrical charge. This I think is the thread that ties everything together. Thoughts are electrical impulses in the brain that have various frequencies. The brain is capable of picking up these signals from outside the skull. Somehow... (I am no scientist) I think we have yet to define this transmission of information that seems to defy time and distance. Additionally, I don't think we will fully understand that until we get closer to understanding time and space.

 Additionally, along the same note, life (what makes us) is fundamentally electricity. This can even be described as Energy. I think it was Einstein that theorized there is a finite amount of energy in the Universe. An someone else has proven that energy never dies, it just changes state. With this in mind, and reading some of Soke's books about life and so forth, and thinking in terms of the various religions, life takes on a whole new perspective for me.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 14, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> It really isn't "reacting" it is "proacting". Our training is typically "proactive" rather than "reactive". But appears to be "reactive". Hope that makes sense.


It's been my understanding that this changes depending on whether you're working within the boundaries of nijigen no seikai, sanjigen no seikai or yugen no seikai.


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## Elizium (Apr 14, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> In an effort to use science to explain this, the following is my theory.


 
I am glad to see this sentance.  You are being rational and not saying I see it as this and you should tow the line.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Additionally, along the same note, life (what makes us) is fundamentally electricity. This can even be described as Energy. I think it was Einstein that theorized there is a finite amount of energy in the Universe. An someone else has proven that energy never dies, it just changes state. With this in mind, and reading some of Soke's books about life and so forth, and thinking in terms of the various religions, life takes on a whole new perspective for me.


The way it sounds is like the Bhuddist reincarnation of the soul.  This subject has many ideals, theories and supposition.  I like to see that people are not trying to flame each other on personal viewpoints.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 14, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> I am glad to see this sentance. You are being rational and not saying I see it as this and you should tow the line.
> 
> 
> The way it sounds is like the Bhuddist reincarnation of the soul. This subject has many ideals, theories and supposition. I like to see that people are not trying to flame each other on personal viewpoints.


 Just sharing my theory of how it works. But it is just theory. Yes it does sound like Bhuddism, but if you really look closely you may find that most religions incorporate many elements of this. Just like Bhuddist believe in reincarnation, I think the Christians do too, just they don't call it that. They call it rapture and the many other other descriptions of it. I think that fundamentally, most religions have the same building blocks. Of course this might be my limited view of religions, but so far I find many similarities between the ones I do know about.

 Likewise, I think I am beginning to see how this also is tied into the martial arts as well, including Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.  I don't think any of it is super natural or magic, certainly much of it is un-explained, but I think it is all natural, just we as humans have lost contact with those sorts of primal "instincts" or sensitivities, which through training we become more attuned to them.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 14, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It's been my understanding that this changes depending on whether you're working within the boundaries of nijigen no seikai, sanjigen no seikai or yugen no seikai.


 You lost me there. I am not familiar with the names. Would you mind explaining to me the various differences? or at least what the three are?  Maybe I know but not recognize them by their Japanese names.

  Thanks.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 14, 2005)

It is late, but I had this last thought...

An analogy of the electricity that I theorize connects everything in the universe together  is "The Force" that is spoken about in Star Wars.  Not that I think that "the force" is real, just I think it is a fairly good analogy of how everyone and every living thing has it, but only some have an awareness of it and other cultivate an awareness through training.

G'Nite.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 15, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> You lost me there. I am not familiar with the names. Would you mind explaining to me the various differences? or at least what the three are? Maybe I know but not recognize them by their Japanese names.
> 
> Thanks.


Arnaud explained the concepts at a seminar last year through the medium of the nine basic kata of Kukishinden Bikenjutsu. I believe it's sort of a "sub-section" to the concept of roppo kuji.

If memory serves me correctly, the first three techniques, tsuki komi, tsuki kake and kiri sage, all have one thing in common - you move AFTER the opponent's attack is begun. That is nijigen no seikai. The next three techniques, kiri sage, kasugai dome/kinshi/kasu dae sage and kocho gaeshi, are designed so that tori should move WITH uke's attack. That is sanjigen no seikai. And the final three techniques, shiho kiri, happo kiri and tsuki no wa, are yugen no seikai, which means that you actually move before uke has fully launched his attack, you act exactly in the moment he *decides* to attack.

And then there's a whole lot more to it that I probably don't have a clue about just as usual.:asian:


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## saru1968 (Apr 15, 2005)

Bigshadow' Not that I think that "the force" is real'

Its a matter of faith and oneday when you believe its real it will be...

Of course its real, how could i be a Jedi otherwise?

(waves hand) 'This IS the Answer your looking for..'

Gary


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## Elizium (Apr 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Arnaud explained the concepts at a seminar last year through the medium of the nine basic kata of Kukishinden Bikenjutsu. I believe it's sort of a "sub-section" to the concept of roppo kuji.
> 
> If memory serves me correctly, the first three techniques, tsuki komi, tsuki kake and kiri sage, all have one thing in common - you move AFTER the opponent's attack is begun. That is nijigen no seikai. The next three techniques, kiri sage, kasugai dome/kinshi/kasu dae sage and kocho gaeshi, are designed so that tori should move WITH uke's attack. That is sanjigen no seikai. And the final three techniques, shiho kiri, happo kiri and tsuki no wa, are yugen no seikai, which means that you actually move before uke has fully launched his attack, you act exactly in the moment he *decides* to attack.
> 
> And then there's a whole lot more to it that I probably don't have a clue about just as usual.:asian:


I would say part of that is woo woo kan stuff.  But as Uke is in front you are watching subtle differnces in the person and the brain is picking up on the change quicker than your thinking perceives.  But if you want to go on a real woo woo, the sakai is the most strange.  Some how the sakai seems to go beyond the vision and into something more profound, more along the lines of an earlier, more basic sense humans have lost.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 15, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> But if you want to go on a real woo woo, the sakai is the most strange.


You obviously have never heard of the concept of "go rin kudaki"...


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## Elizium (Apr 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> You obviously have never heard of the concept of "go rin kudaki"...


And that is?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 15, 2005)

To be dissin' Musashi's five rings...


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## Bigshadow (Apr 15, 2005)

saru1968 said:
			
		

> Bigshadow' Not that I think that "the force" is real'
> 
> Its a matter of faith and oneday when you believe its real it will be...
> 
> ...


  HAHAHA  Funny!  My 10 year old son wants to be a Jedi, maybe you can help him! HAHAHA!


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## Bigshadow (Apr 15, 2005)

Elizium said:
			
		

> I would say part of that is woo woo kan stuff. But as Uke is in front you are watching subtle differnces in the person and the brain is picking up on the change quicker than your thinking perceives. But if you want to go on a real woo woo, the sakai is the most strange. Some how the sakai seems to go beyond the vision and into something more profound, more along the lines of an earlier, more basic sense humans have lost.


 I think there is more to it! I have noticed lately that I am often able to feel when the uke is going to attack, but the uke has not moved, but it is the point where they have mentally committed themselves to the attack and they must follow through. The brain will not move to something else until that action is complete. That is what I mean by before the uke has moved, however in this case the attack has already begun, just they have not moved or given any outside indicators. 

 I think we begin to pick up on that the more we train. I know for me, I get a quick but subtle feeling that seems to say "NOW!". It is subtle and passes quickly and often I miss it because I am thinking or tense, or you know the usual stuff.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> you move AFTER the opponent's attack is begun. That is nijigen no seikai.


 What is the significance of moving afterwards?  This seems to be what we do when we start training.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> are designed so that tori should move WITH uke's attack. That is sanjigen no seikai.


 I *think* I can see the advantages of moving WITH uke...  This seems to be what we do when we are getting close to shodan.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> And the final three techniques, shiho kiri, happo kiri and tsuki no wa, are yugen no seikai, which means that you actually move before uke has fully launched his attack, you act exactly in the moment he *decides* to attack.


 I am pretty sure I can see some of the basic advantages of this.  I would think that this is where we aspire to be as we train.  But I think that this requires "feeling" the attack before the body moves.  



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> And then there's a whole lot more to it that I probably don't have a clue about just as usual.:asian:


 You and me both!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 15, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> What is the significance of moving afterwards? This seems to be what we do when we start training.


What comes to mind is the usage of long spears in the Battle of Stirling in "Braveheart"...



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I *think* I can see the advantages of moving WITH uke... This seems to be what we do when we are getting close to shodan.


Only problem is, that may leave you open for deception as well.



			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure I can see some of the basic advantages of this. I would think that this is where we aspire to be as we train. But I think that this requires "feeling" the attack before the body moves.


I think you're assuming it to be more complicated than it actually is. There is no secret but hard training. And there are plenty of ways to read an opponent and discover the small but significant signs that will give away an attack.


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## ninhito (Apr 15, 2005)

like the eyes or their face, right, but doesnt that take you fighting the person before hand at sometime?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 15, 2005)

Their eyes, their face, their voice, their shoulders, their hands, their feet, their breath pattern etc etc...no I don't think so.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> What comes to mind is the usage of long spears in the Battle of Stirling in "Braveheart"...


 Oh I get it!  That makes sense.  I was looking at something more specific, but yes, thinking outside the box, that seems clearer now.  Great movie by the way!  It is one of my favorites.  I think the Patriot ranks up there too!





			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Only problem is, that may leave you open for deception as well.


 I can see that too.  I am kind of getting the idea...



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> I think you're assuming it to be more complicated than it actually is. There is no secret but hard training.


 I may be... I tend to over analyze.  I agree it comes from hard training. I wasn't trying to make it sound mystical, if I did, I apologize.  I once asked Dick Severance, when I was starting...  Should I meditate or something to acquire that sensing ability, his reply was "No... Just train."


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## Bigshadow (Apr 15, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Their eyes, their face, their voice, their shoulders, their hands, their feet, their breath pattern etc etc...no I don't think so.


 not only that, there is the environment which you are in that may have a hostile feel to it, plus we must look at the motivations behind a person's actions. Sometimes they are readily visible and other times not, but I agree that taking in all the data available, it is possible to know when the attack is coming.  There are many many other things as well...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 15, 2005)

Quoted from Terry Pratchett's "Witches Abroad":

"Wisdom is one of the few things that [look] bigger the further away [they are]. Hence, for example, the Way of Mrs. Cosmopolite, very popular among young people who live in the hidden valleys above the snowline in the high Ramtops. Disdaining the utterances of their own saffron-clad, prayer-wheel-spinning elders, they occasionally travel all the way to No. 3 Quirm Street in flat and foggy Ankh-Morpork, to seek wisdom at the feet of Mrs. Marietta Cosmopolite, a seamstress. No one knows the reson for this, apart from the aforesaid attractiveness of distant wisdom, since they can't understand a word she says or, more usually, screams at them. Many a bald young monk returns to his high fastness to meditate on the strange mantra vouchsafed to him, such as "Push off, you!" and "If I see one more of you little orange devils peering in at me he'll feel the edge of my hand, all right?" and "Why are you buggers all coming round here staring at my feet?" They have even developed a special branch of martial arts based on their experiences, where they shout incomprehensibly at one another and then hit their opponent with a broom."


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## Elizium (Apr 16, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Quoted from Terry Pratchett's "Witches Abroad":
> 
> "Wisdom is one of the few things that [look] bigger the further away [they are]. Hence, for example, the Way of Mrs. Cosmopolite, very popular among young people who live in the hidden valleys above the snowline in the high Ramtops. Disdaining the utterances of their own saffron-clad, prayer-wheel-spinning elders, they occasionally travel all the way to No. 3 Quirm Street in flat and foggy Ankh-Morpork, to seek wisdom at the feet of Mrs. Marietta Cosmopolite, a seamstress. No one knows the reson for this, apart from the aforesaid attractiveness of distant wisdom, since they can't understand a word she says or, more usually, screams at them. Many a bald young monk returns to his high fastness to meditate on the strange mantra vouchsafed to him, such as "Push off, you!" and "If I see one more of you little orange devils peering in at me he'll feel the edge of my hand, all right?" and "Why are you buggers all coming round here staring at my feet?" They have even developed a special branch of martial arts based on their experiences, where they shout incomprehensibly at one another and then hit their opponent with a broom."


Sounds like me but not wearing orange


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## Bigshadow (Apr 18, 2005)

I will be sure not to wear orange next time... :uhyeah:


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## heretic888 (Apr 20, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> In an effort to use science to explain this, the following is my theory. Everything on this planet and in the universe at the most basic molecular level has one thing in common (that we know of). Electrical charge. This I think is the thread that ties everything together. Thoughts are electrical impulses in the brain that have various frequencies. The brain is capable of picking up these signals from outside the skull. Somehow... (I am no scientist) I think we have yet to define this transmission of information that seems to defy time and distance. Additionally, I don't think we will fully understand that until we get closer to understanding time and space.
> 
> Additionally, along the same note, life (what makes us) is fundamentally electricity. This can even be described as Energy. I think it was Einstein that theorized there is a finite amount of energy in the Universe. An someone else has proven that energy never dies, it just changes state. With this in mind, and reading some of Soke's books about life and so forth, and thinking in terms of the various religions, life takes on a whole new perspective for me.



Not to be rude here, but in my opinion, this entire explanation absolutely reaks of materialistic reductionism --- its essentially trying to reduce subjective experiences and qualia to objective jots of dirt flitting around the universe. This is a common attempt in many popular works --- such as the 'Tao of Physics' --- given that "scientific materialism" is only the academic worldview given credence in our current culture.

Bah, but perhaps this discussion is best suited for The Study??  :asian:


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## Bigshadow (Apr 21, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Not to be rude here, but in my opinion, this entire explanation absolutely reaks of materialistic reductionism --- its essentially trying to reduce subjective experiences and qualia to objective jots of dirt flitting around the universe. This is a common attempt in many popular works --- such as the 'Tao of Physics' --- given that "scientific materialism" is only the academic worldview given credence in our current culture.
> 
> Bah, but perhaps this discussion is best suited for The Study??  :asian:


 Don't worry about it. It was my attempt at explaining my opinion, just as what you said was yours. Neither of us have it figured out whatever "it" is. Given that I have not read any of those works and I came to this idea on my own, I would venture to say, I must not be alone in thinking this way. It is also my opinion that all things can be explained by science. Granted, at this time, we lack the knowlege and science to explain much of what people would call supernatural. However, I fully believe in time, we will be able to describe it and explain it.

  However, this should be debated elsewhere.


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## heretic888 (Apr 21, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> It is also my opinion that all things can be explained by science. Granted, at this time, we lack the knowlege and science to explain much of what people would call supernatural. However, I fully believe in time, we will be able to describe it and explain it.



Perhaps, but this isn't "science" you're talking about here. Its reductionism.

Explanations such as these (and in no way am I applying this to you as a person) make the assumption that for something to be "real", it has to have exterior, physical, material bases. This is symptomatic of the pathological materialism that currently dominates the Western psyche (not just America, as many would presume).

This was readily abundant, for example, when it was implied that our thoughts and memories were "just" electrical impulses. That's certainly not how _I_ personally experience the contents of my mind.

This form of biophysical reductionism is also evident in the _Star Wars_ mythology, as well.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Elizium (Apr 22, 2005)

Mankind knows more about the universe than our own oceans.  We know that the "woo woo" element exists, but we do not know why.  It will always be a mistery to the kans.


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## Bigshadow (Apr 22, 2005)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Perhaps, but this isn't "science" you're talking about here. Its reductionism.


 Call it whatever you like.  I was just expressing my opinion and in no way called it science.  I attempted to articulate my thoughts through bits and pieces of science.



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> Explanations such as these (and in no way am I applying this to you as a person) make the assumption that for something to be "real", it has to have exterior, physical, material bases.


 I believe many things are real that science cannot explain.  My point is that I think mankind will eventually come to a point where these things that are currently unexplained and/or "spiritual" will be understood, defined, quantified, and explained.  From this, a whole new science may evolve.




			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> This was readily abundant, for example, when it was implied that our thoughts and memories were "just" electrical impulses. That's certainly not how _I_ personally experience the contents of my mind.


 Feelings aside, that is pretty much how the brain works.  Much like billions of electric circuits.  However, I firmly believe there is the "spirit" or "soul" that religious circles believe in, and science has yet to acknowlege.




			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> This form of biophysical reductionism is also evident in the _Star Wars_ mythology, as well.


 Star Wars also has an abundance of politically charged details in it too, but I try to over look them.  Dude Star Wars is cool!


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## Shogun (Apr 22, 2005)

> Dude Star Wars is cool!


Heck yes, it is!


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## Cryozombie (Apr 22, 2005)

Don't be dissin the 'Wars...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 22, 2005)

Speaking of wars, both regular wars and Star Wars, if you read "Noghri" backwards you will find what some believe to be a reference to a part of modern Middle-Eastern history...


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## ginshun (May 5, 2005)

heretic888, I don't really see your point.  Big shadow is just trying to come up with a scientific explanation for things.  Whats wrong with that?

 To me, at least making a theory about why something happens based on our current understanding of the worlds is better than not trying to explain it at all, or just assuming it can't be explained.


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## rutherford (Jan 26, 2006)

I think I need more time alone, because I'm having trouble living in my skin. I keep breaking it open. My left elbo is bashed pretty badly and has two deep cuts on it. And I would have been hurt much worse if I hadn't had MA training. 

I fell in the kitchen across the steps, twisted on impact, and landed with my ear touching my shoulder. The wall was right next to my head, and I lay there thinking about it for a few breaths and realized I hadn't even touched the wall. I'd just naturally twisted and moved my head out of the way. It was completely dark, which is why I fell. But I didn't hit the wall, and I can't explain why in any way a scientist would understand. It just happened.


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## eyebeams (Jan 27, 2006)

So, are there any films or videos of the godan test?


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## Kreth (Jan 30, 2006)

eyebeams said:
			
		

> So, are there any films or videos of the godan test?


I don't know which years off the top of my head, but some of the Daikomyosai videos show godan tests.


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