# Is this a problem



## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 5, 2003)

I saw this on another forum, and thought I might share to see what you guys thought.  Is Image theft becoming a problem or do you feel that this isn't that big a deal.

-----------www.kenponet.com--------------------
Can you say ripoff?
by Trademark Concerns
Can you say ripoff. Look at the AKKI crest. 






Now follow this link and look at the upper left corner of the banner and down the page at Bob Jones right shoulder.









Is the Tatum group so desperate for attention that they are resorting to stealing other associations logos in hopes of confusing their clientele? 
-----------------------------------------------------------


Does anyone else see a problem with this?


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## M F (Nov 6, 2003)

Now why would Mr. Jones want people to confuse him with a member of an organization whose system is based solely on "Gathering Clouds"?    That is something he said at Kenponet a while back.  I found it pretty funny.


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## Blindside (Nov 6, 2003)

Does it look like a rip-off?

Yes.  But not just off the AKKI, the Tiger, Dragon, and Universal look like they were lifted off the AKKS patch.

Of course because all of these designs use the general themes and outline of the Parker IKKA patch, they all look like rip-offs to me.

At what point does a homage become a rip-off?

Lamont

PS:  I don't think that is a "Tatum" patch, rather that it a studio patch or maybe a group of studios which are now affiliated with Mr. Tatum.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 6, 2003)

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what a jackass.  He literally ripped-off three organizations to make his crest patch.  Why would the Tatum group allow this?


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## Shiatsu (Nov 6, 2003)

Every kenpo patch is a off shoot of someone elses.  Get over it.


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## Ceicei (Nov 6, 2003)

There is enough variation between the three pictures you posted that trademark violation would not be an issue should anyone try to challenge these crests legally.

Basically, they all come from the same kenpo root, so it wouldn't surprise me for them to retain some pictorial vestage of that heritage.

- Ceicei


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## M F (Nov 6, 2003)

What bothers me is that this guy was formerly affiliated with the AKKI.  After leaving, he takes  ALL of the elements of the AKKI crest that make it different, and copies them.  That is bad business.


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## Michael Billings (Nov 6, 2003)

Also you have to consider who designed the patches for the various Associations.  I know the AKKS, AKTS, UKS, and Howard Silva's patches were all designed by Edmund.  It would not surprise me at all to find he had designed other Associations.

I have a good random sampling, thanks in part to Billy Lear, who allowed me to ccpy some of the crests he had edited.  Follow the link:

*http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpolinks.htm* 

-Michael


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## Ceicei (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I have a good random sampling, thanks in part to Billy Lear, who allowed me to ccpy some of the crests he had edited.  Follow the link:
> 
> http://kenpo-texas.com/kenpolinks.htm
> ...



Your link is amazing.  I didn't realize how many different Kenpo crests/patches/icons/logos there are....

- Ceicei


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 6, 2003)

http://tendous-kenpo.tripod.com/tendou/index.html





Hmmmmm..... see any similiarities





I'm just having a hard time with the fact that two Tatum schools have found the need to blatently "steal" crest designs from other associations.  Perhaps it's just coincidence


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 6, 2003)

Wow. I'm reminded of the character Ruth in Stephen King's "The Tommyknockers," who tells a particularly-offensive yahoo, "Thank you," and then goes on to say something like,"I sometimes foolishly think that I have seen all the way to the bottom of the well of human stupidity, and it is good for me to be reminded from time to time that that particular well HAS no bottom."

Congrats, though, on a new low. 

ALL the damn patches have common elements for the same reason that all the kids of a family look somewhat alike. What would actually be interesting--because ultimately, this sort of mean-spirited pettiness isn't interesting--would be to do a structuralist analysis of the relationships among all the patches.

If you're not sure of what that is, plug in, "structural study of myth," and do a Net search...


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## TheEdge883 (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> *
> I'm just having a hard time with the fact that two Tatum schools have found the need to blatently "steal" crest designs from other associations.  Perhaps it's just coincidence *



Seriously, who cares? Why all the bickering about such superficial crap. Get back into the studio and start studying.


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## Shiatsu (Nov 6, 2003)

With the slinging that your instructor that has been known to do, I don't think you have much room to talk.  Remember the slinging he always says about, Arandas, Lim's, others need I go on, how the AKKI can't run successful schools.  Ring any bells?


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## TheEdge883 (Nov 6, 2003)

Cassidy? Who cares, seriously?


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## Shiatsu (Nov 6, 2003)

Nope wrong guy.  But lots of former students.:asian:


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## TheEdge883 (Nov 6, 2003)

I'm a former student, and I don't really care. Why do you?


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## Shiatsu (Nov 6, 2003)

Because of the lies and obvious slander that he imposes on former students.


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 6, 2003)

You know, it never fails to amaze me that people can get on these forums, make anonymous accusations unsupported by the slightest evidence, and then proceed to defend themselves against anybody who says, "hey, wait a minnit,"--as I'm sure will happen here--with prattle about honor.

It would be honorable--and better suited to the Constitution--to put one's name to such claims, bring evidence forward, and leave honor out of it.

Or am I getting this wrong, and I should hire somebody to sit in a tree outside my home school with a rifle, so that next time I'm supposed to spar, he can shoot my opponent and the instructor too if he raises an eyebrow?


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## Bill Lear (Nov 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Every kenpo patch is a off shoot of someone elses.  Get over it. *



*I agree with you 100%! *


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 7, 2003)

Ok, I took a look at the various patches....and yes, they are -similar-.  

They are not identical however.  

The 'flavor' of the patches is similar, as they both have a very similar layout (background crest, tiger, dragon, the big K), yet each representation is stylistically different.  A bit of a flar here, a meaner/less mean tiger, different angles, etc.

At best, you can say they are all derivative works, yet each still maintains the relationship to the original.

I see nothing wrong with them...I mean, it could be worse...could feature Barney and Tony the Tiger.... 

:asian:


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## M F (Nov 7, 2003)

Let me clarify my position here.  I apologize if I have insulted the Tatum organization as a whole.  This was not my intention.  From all that I know of Mr. Tatum, he and his organization are very respectable.  He is without a doubt one of the most skilled Kenpoists today.  My objection is only to the use of a school patch obviously copied from another organizations Crest.  I bear aboslutely no animosity towards Mr. Tatum or the LTKKA.


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## Ceicei (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I mean, it could be worse...could feature Barney and Tony the Tiger.... *



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:   I love that comment!

- Ceicei


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Nov 7, 2003)

Okay, so my question is simple,"If Bob Jones and this TENDOU guy, whatever his name is, belong to the Tatum organization why aren't they copying tatum's patch and making derivatives of *IT* to put on their sleeves instead of taking the AKKI or AKKS patches and making DERIVATIVEs of them to put on their sleeves?"


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## Bill Lear (Nov 7, 2003)

> *Originally posted by M F *
> 
> _Let me clarify my position here.  I apologize if I have insulted the Tatum organization as a whole.  This was not my intention.  From all that I know of Mr. Tatum, he and his organization are very respectable.  He is without a doubt one of the most skilled Kenpoists today.  My objection is only to the use of a school patch obviously copied from another organizations Crest.  I bear aboslutely no animosity towards Mr. Tatum or the LTKKA. _



Thank you for clarifying that.


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## Bill Lear (Nov 7, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo *
> 
> _Okay, so my question is simple,"If Bob Jones and this TENDOU guy, whatever his name is, belong to the Tatum organization why aren't they copying tatum's patch and making derivatives of *IT* to put on their sleeves instead of taking the AKKI or AKKS patches and making DERIVATIVEs of them to put on their sleeves?" _



And... Like... Oh my god... They like... Use the same belt ranking system too!

Maybe the off-shoot systems of American Kenpo should come up with their own belt ranking system? Perhaps... Maybe... Possibly... Add A PINK BELT to distinguish their obviously SUPERIOR system from ours?


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## Fastmover (Nov 7, 2003)

The patches are very similar in my opinion. I think when most people design their own patch they put a lot of thought into doing it. Often there is great significance placed on the design to illustrate things such as historical root and/or origination philosophy. For Instance many new Kenpo patches out there today have incorporated the shape of Mr. Parkers original patch in some fashion. This probably done to give credit to the one who planted the seed and as I said provide a historical perspective. 

It would seem to me that in designing a new patch, one would want to give credit to the organization and/or individuals who influenced them the most. Maybe this is the case In Mr. Jones case since he did train with Mr. Mills many years ago??  However I do find it Little odd that since he does currently study under the philosophies of Mr. Tatum, he didnt illustrate this in his patch in some fashion. This would seem like a logical thing to do to avoid confusion in who you are representing and what you do. Personally I think the LTKKA patch is really nice and it easily recognizable to anyone who sees it. Seems to me this would be desirable to someone who trains under him.

Maybe someone could shed some light on the meaning of these patches to put all this into perspective???


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## jeffkyle (Nov 7, 2003)

You guys got me thinking....I am going to sue my dad because he looks so much like me.  I am sure that is some kind of copywright/trademark violation.  I am going to see if I can get him for everything he has....maybe I will get my inheritence early!  :shrug: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Bill Lear (Nov 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> *You guys got me thinking....I am going to sue my dad because he looks so much like me.  I am sure that is some kind of copywright/trademark violation.  I am going to see if I can get him for everything he has....maybe I will get my inheritence early!  :shrug: :rofl: :rofl: *



I think you have an idea there... Unfortunately I think I might have the Mailman's eyes <--- ( Just kidding mom  )


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## Michael Billings (Nov 7, 2003)

Patches are similar ... SO WHAT!!  We do come from the same "Source", the designer is frequently the same person, we just personalize them to make them unique to our Associations for our own reasons ... once again SO WHAT?  

This is rhetorical and I do not expect an answer, but enjoy the patches and organizations, for their uniqueness, for their differences, for us all being part of a Family of Kenpo (albeit a dysfunctional family sometimes, with lots of lost branches, cousins, neices and nephews that we have not met.)  

Why are certain people determined to stir this pot and like or thrive on the dissent and arguing?

Why ask why?  Have at it, and No Worries ... if you have nothing better to train or use your minds for.  Otherwise, lets get on with it and quit alienating Seniors or Association heads and their students.

A not very tolerant -Michael


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## Brother John (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by M F _
> *What bothers me is that this guy was formerly affiliated with the AKKI.  After leaving, he takes  ALL of the elements of the AKKI crest that make it different, and copies them.  That is bad business. *


It's also evidence of:
Poor taste
Lack of creativity
absence of original thought
shallow ethic

...the list goes on.
Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *ALL the damn patches have common elements for the same reason that all the kids of a family look somewhat alike. What would actually be interesting--because ultimately, this sort of mean-spirited pettiness isn't interesting--would be to do a structuralist analysis of the relationships among all the patches.
> 
> If you're not sure of what that is, plug in, "structural study of myth," and do a Net search... *


((I'll skip your put-downs for now and deal with the more substantive argument))
But Robert, don't you think that the patches should deviate substantially from one another? Especially if the two systems deviate well enough from one another? I mean look at those patches again, one takes from three (most heavily the AKKI) and the other does a 90% take from the AKKI crest. Please.

Most of the non-IKKA patches are substantially different from the original crest. They are good and show originality. 
What do you think?

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Nov 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Fastmover _
> *The patches are very similar in my opinion. I think when most people design their own patch they put a lot of thought into doing it. Often there is great significance placed on the design to illustrate things such as historical root and/or origination philosophy. For Instance many new Kenpo patches out there today have incorporated the shape of Mr. Parkers original patch in some fashion. This probably done to give credit to the one who planted the seed and as I said provide a historical perspective.
> 
> It would seem to me that in designing a new patch, one would want to give credit to the organization and/or individuals who influenced them the most. Maybe this is the case In Mr. Jones case since he did train with Mr. Mills many years ago??  However I do find it Little odd that since he does currently study under the philosophies of Mr. Tatum, he didnt illustrate this in his patch in some fashion. This would seem like a logical thing to do to avoid confusion in who you are representing and what you do. Personally I think the LTKKA patch is really nice and it easily recognizable to anyone who sees it. Seems to me this would be desirable to someone who trains under him.
> ...



Fastmover has excellent points here, some that no-one else is addressing.
worth some thought.

Your brother
John


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 10, 2003)

Brother John:

I don't mean to offend you, since your posts generally seem reasonable, and intelligent, and helpful, to me.

However, these discussions of the patches are in several cases--not all, butt several--simply mean-spirited. And furthermore, the relationships among the patches can easily be understood by anyone who takes the trouble to follow through the topics I suggested.


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## Brother John (Nov 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Brother John:
> I don't mean to offend you, since your posts generally seem reasonable, and intelligent, and helpful, to me.
> However, these discussions of the patches are in several cases--not all, butt several--simply mean-spirited. And furthermore, the relationships among the patches can easily be understood by anyone who takes the trouble to follow through the topics I suggested. *



No problem Robert. Thanks for the friendly qualifier first though, not needed...but it's one of those things where it's the gesture that counts.  :asian: 

I agree that sometimes this can get mean spirited, which is very antithetical to how I like to approach the Kenpo community at large (though there are minor factions that I don't even bother to fein respect for...I'm just following mom's advice and not saying anything at all.) So I hope I didn't come across as being too hostile or whatnot. 

I think that Mr. John Connolly (Fast Mover) had some VERY good points, really. I think that they could lead into a much more productive conversation on this topic of the similarity/or/copying of patch design. 

I also agree with some who say "It doesn't change my reverse punch or front kick...so why bother." True. If it's not important for you, don't worry about anything in this thread. Go on training, I will...regardless. I'd suspect that those that care will post/read/reply... and that those who don't would read the first entry here and click back to find a new thread. Due to the number of replies, it does seem to matter to some; and bears looking into further.

What is a crest? Isn't it a visual representation of the character, ideals, vision and approach of your particular school/association/art? I know that the AKKI patch has a great deal of symbolic significance to it, only a smattering of which is written down in our belt manuals: http://www.akki.com/articles/crest.html

I, for one, am very honored and proud to wear this patch and be a part of what it represents. It is distinctive. Though you can definitely tell that it is related to it's predecessor from the IKKA, you can tell it is uniquely different. This alone speaks to the fact that we came from the original teachings and vision of SGM Parker (similarities) and yet shows that our course has changed from that of our parent organization (the distinctiveness). Therefore if one must borrow or carry-over from one or another patch... perhaps at least it should be from the patch of the org/association/art that they came up from. In the above cited patches you have one from a man/group that, to my understanding, has had nothing at all to do with the AKKI... yet his patch is VERY close to ours. To me that doesn't seem right. The next patch has some of our more distinctive features, yet he has had a very basic problem with our association from the top down and has put us down before. So why take from our very cool artwork? He's severed ties and really left a LONG time before much of the major revision/overhaul of the material took place (which is still very much going on), so those things that make our members practical and even theoretical underpinnings distinctive... he missed out on. Why take from the distinctiveness of the patch then?
These are my points, my views... I am a member of the AKKI but in no way am I it's voice.
Your Brother
John


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## donald (Nov 10, 2003)

In the words of the 20th century philosopher, B.Bunny E.F.A., taken from his pre, and post WWII comments. 

"Whats all the hub bub, Bub? "

If you want to get down to brass tacks. Mr.Tatum did a fine job of coming up with a unique kenpo crest for his organization. Even so his still has elements of the more recent ones, i.e. the dragon. Its my belief that there are so many BECAUSE of Mr.Parker's IKKA patch. It was, and is a good design, and now carries some serious weight as a identifiable product since Mr.Parker's death. I also believe if Mr.Parker were still with us. This conversation would be moot. Because they (the patch designers)would have Sr., to deal with! As stated in some previous post. Get on with it man, let-it-go...

     :asian:


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## Brother John (Nov 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *if Mr.Parker were still with us. This conversation would be moot. Because they (the patch designers)would have Sr., to deal with! *



IF Mr. Parker were still with us there wouldn't be an AKKI crest becuase there wouldn't BE an AKKI. Mr. Mills would still be with his instructor and those that are under Mr. Mills would still just be called the "Paul Mills family group".

As I said, it's important to some people... so we talk about it. I don't see why you are telling me to "let it go". I see it as an issue, if you don't... save your key strokes. Unless you are stepping up to defend someone.

Liked the buggs quote though...

Your Brother
John


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## donald (Nov 10, 2003)

Sir John,

First let me say that my post was primarly directed to the person who began this little settoo.Secondly, I in no way mentioned Mr.Mills, or any other senior,save Mr.Tatum. I only mentioned Mr.Tatum in regards to his crest design. Now if I may respond to your statement regarding Mr.Mills et al. If  Mr.Parker Sr., was still with us. There would be other kenpo associations,organizations,affiliations,etc.,etc.,and, so on, and, so on. My point was that their designs would'nt be so simular to the IKKA design, except with Mr.Sr.'s approval. That being said I really don't see the harm in the design simularities. Excepting with those who make claims of being a Parker kenpo based system, and are not. Regarding the quote from Mr.B., thank you. His fierce tenacity has been an inspiration to us here at Shady Pines.

By His Grace   :asian:


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## Brother John (Nov 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Sir John,
> 
> First let me say that my post was primarly directed to the person who began this little settoo.Secondly, I in no way mentioned Mr.Mills, or any other senior,save Mr.Tatum. I only mentioned Mr.Tatum in regards to his crest design.
> ...



Thought it was in reply to the post just preceding it.
Shows what happens when I assume huh?
Your Brother
John

PS: Personally I feel a great deal of pitty for Wil E. Coyotae... Guess I can associate with him. Chasing his passion but always going just far enough to go over the cliff.


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## Brother John (Nov 30, 2003)

Has there ever been legal action taken on such an issue?
Is there a precedence???

Thanks
Your Brother
John



accept NO imitations:


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## allen (Dec 11, 2003)

Huh?  Hows this thing work?  What?  Am I in?  Does my avatar show-up?  Guess who?


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## Blindside (Dec 11, 2003)

Oh good, let me make introductions.

Allen, Robert.... Robert, Allen.

Wait, you've met????

 

Lamont


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## Ceicei (Dec 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *Fastmover has excellent points here, some that no-one else is addressing.
> worth some thought.
> 
> ...



Would you care to share some of your observations on these points?  I'm interested in your views (as well as from others) on these unaddressed issues.

- Ceicei


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 12, 2003)

Sorry, but I don't see most of this thread as having much of anything to do with the patches and their analysis. It's a political discussion, and it started out with throwing rocks at Bob Jones for whatever reason.

One of the signs that it's not about what it claims to be about is some of the absurdity. I mean, a poster actually suggested that it was plagiaristic to have used a dragon as part of a patch! fer cryin' out loud, if that's true, then we're ALL plagiarists and Mr. Parker too. How long have dragons been used in the representation of martial arts?

I will rhetorically bet a shiny new nickel that every single martial arts patch anybody's ever seen borrows from somewhere. Ah...KenpoChristians...they stole that cross!

If we really want to study the patches, I can show you how. (Sorry, really) It's a) a structuralist question comparable to various analyses of myths--see Vladimir Propp, "The Morphology of the Folk-Tale," as one example, b) a psychoanalytic question, in which aspects of the patch and their usages would be discussed for their...well, you know...and their military connotations, and why they mean anything to us c) an economic question, in which we discuss the production and sale of patches treated as trademarks, d) a historical question, in which we discuss the evolution of martial arts insignia generally, e) the question of originality in kenpo as a whole.

Otherwise, and again I sorta apologize, it's politics. Call it that and have at it.

VERY funny Blindside crack by the way. Nice one.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 12, 2003)

Uh, it is possible to do a Kenpo patch that doesn't have a dragon or tiger or the universal pattern (see my vintage '70s USNKA patch as my avatar).  But, all the really cool patches do have the common elements of the dragon, tiger, universal pattern.  

Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery.  Flattery is not plagarism.  Immitation becomes copyright infringement when it creates confusion in the consumers' minds about which is the authentic work or fools the consumer into thinking they are getting a certain product from a certain organization when they are actually getting a different product from a different organization.

If we go down the path of copyright infringement between Kenpo organizations, then all but one organization could be forced to alter the names and contents of their concepts, forms and techniques.  Then you would have...the Kenpo subsystem I studed where we do most of the same techniques but call them all by different names.


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## John Bishop (Dec 12, 2003)

If you venture outside the Kenpo world you will find that it is very common to find similar patch designs in the same styles.  It is a sign of respect for the systems first founder/organization.  

In many Shotokan organizations their patch will contain the Shotokan "Rising Sun" symbol, or the "Shotokan Tiger" (yes they use a tiger too) symbol in their patches.   

In Goju Ryu you will see the "fist" design in various organizational patches.

In Kajukenbo, most patches have "Emperado's clover" design or the "Kajukenbo Coat of Arms" design in them. 

In these systems and many, many more, this is a showing of respect and recognition for the school/organizations roots and founder. 

Mr. Parker is the founder of American Kenpo.  After he gave his first patch (the AKKA fist) to Ralph Castro, who wanted to use it to acknowledge his roots to Mr. Parker.  He had the IKKA patch designed.  Any variations of that patch by people in his lineage is a common martial arts tradition of respect for the systems roots and founder.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 12, 2003)

Good lord, sensible people. A pleasure.


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## Rob Broad (Dec 12, 2003)

I think that the closeness of the different crests and logos will only be a problem if we make it a problem.  The Kenpo community needs to come together instead of loking at our differences.


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## Ceicei (Dec 12, 2003)

Actually, if you think about understanding what the crest/patch really means, there isn't much room to alter it drastically.

For those who adhere to EPAK philosophy, look at Mr. Ed Parker's explanation of the crest/patch in *Volume 1 of his Infinite Insights* series.  He explains the reasoning for the locations of the dragon on the top of the universal pattern wheel, for the tiger at the bottom, the oriental writing, the coloring, and background.

To merely change the dragon to the left side, for example, and the tiger to the other side, would have fundamentally changed the entire purpose and would have to present a whole new philosophy for the new crest.  Would this have meant a different Kenpo?

I think that's why those who follow the EPAK system, claim the lineage, and incorporate the philosophy would want to be similiar in keeping their crests with the major tenets in it. 

- Ceicei


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## Michael Billings (Dec 12, 2003)

Nice post and good point.  I think we also honor our lineage, not exactly through imitation, but through the symbolism inherent in the patch and it's components.

-Michael


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## Rob Broad (Dec 12, 2003)

Imitation is the sincerest form of flaterry.

So instead of people griping about this crest looks like this one and such, maybe people should look at it from the fact that people liked something so much it inspired them to take from it to creat something that suits them.


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## Ceicei (Dec 12, 2003)

There is a lot of meaning with that crest.   It is not surprising that organizations would want to carry on the heritage and philosophy of American Kenpo by retaining much of what it shows.

For those who aren't familiar with what the parts of the crest represent and why they are placed in a certain manner:

According to Ed Parker, Infinite Insights, Book 1, pages 36-38.

*"THE TIGER - represents earthly strength derived during the early stages of learning.  This is the stage where the individual is more impressed with his own physical prowness."*

This is the reason why the tiger is located below the wheel (Mr. Parker called this the circle).

*"THE DRAGON - represents spiritual strength which comes with seasoning.  This mental attitude is attained during the individual's later years of training.  It is placed above earthly strength (as indicated and observed on the patch) since the individual at this stage has learned to dvelop humility and self-restraint."*

This is why the dragon is above the tiger, and thus above the circle.

Mr. Parker notes further: *The attitude of the Dragon is the ultimate goal of KENPO.  Armed with this attitude an individual will not be afraid of the opponent but of what he can do to the opponent.  Thus he turns his back and walks away from an unwarranted conflict confident that he could have been the victor."*

The universal pattern is the wheel, and is comprised of the circle and the dividing lines.  I will not give the full explanation of the circle as there are other threads on the subject, but here is a brief summary.

*"THE CIRCLE - is symbolic of several things: (1) It depicts life itself...no beginning nor end.    ...The art of Kenpo...is a cycle of perpetual and unending movement or motion. (2)  All moves evolve from a circle whether they are defensive or offensive. (3) ...Bond of friendship that should continuously exist... and (4) The circle is the base from which our alphabet stems."*

Within the circle are lines of different lengths and directions.

*"THE DIVIDING LINES - in the circle represents: (1) the original eighteen hand movements... (2)...angles from which an opponent or you can attack or defend; and (3) ...pattern...the feet too can travel..."*

There is more in that book going extensively on color, oriental writing, shape, etc.  However, as you have noted, all these are present in many similar crests.  That is likely because these clubs/organizations also subscribe to the same philosophies that Mr. Parker set up for American Kenpo. 

On a side note, I believe the very first original patch (prior to the creation of the popular crest) created was a fist with red circles around it and the words, Kenpo Karate, on the bottom.  Mr. R. Castro probably still wears this patch.

- Ceicei


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## Rick Wade (Jan 14, 2004)

Here are 2 more cents.

If you go to a tournament and you don't recognize a patch you might say hey what style do you study?

In lies my point.  
    If you are not familiar with Kenpo the Patch represents Kenpo  

    If you are familiar with Kenpo the question would change to What Organization or School is that patch from I havent seen it before?  At that time Mr. Jones would probable say something along the lines of (now I dont know Mr. Jones from Adam)  Nice to meet you the patch represents my school in Las Vegas.  I was with the AKKI and this patch is just a tribute to them (or something along those lines).  

Now if the patch really bothers you that much get off the couch and call the School and find out.  

No wait I will do that and post a response later.  I wouldnt want to take time out from your dojo.

What we all seem to forget is that even though the Senior Instructors have some differences those differences do not need to be fueled by us.  If we listen to our Instructors and train, maybe someday along time from now we can repair the fracture.  

Hope I didnt hurt anyones feelings.

Best of luck.

Rick


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## Ceicei (Jan 14, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _
> *What we all seem to forget is that even though the Senior Instructors have some differences those differences do not need to be fueled by us.  If we listen to our Instructors and train, maybe someday along time from now we can repair the fracture.
> *



Interesting suggestion.  The question would be whether there will be enough of us to follow through with that.

- Ceicei


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## Les (Jan 15, 2004)

Over the years I've seen a lot of Kenpo patches that are 'the same but slightly different designs' and some completely different ones.

Here's a question from a different viewpoint.

When a school, club or organisation comes up with a new patch, how much effort has been put into the meaning within the design?

It's all too easy to take someone elses ideas, but it requires a bit of individual creativity to bring in something new that actually has a meaning.

My own school patch, shares some (4) elements with Mr Parkers IKKA patch, (respect for my roots), but it is an entirely different shape, with plenty of Kenpo Concepts and Principles built in to it.

I didn't come up with the Concepts and Principles myself, (I wish I was that clever), but I did make the effort to design a patch that was DIFFERENT.

Members of the AKKI will know that one of the reasons that they waited so long for the AKKI Crest was that Mr Mills wanted a patch that was different from the rest, but full of meaning.

It was a long wait, but worth it. I can understand why AKKI members get annoyed when they see a 'blatant rip-off' of their Associations distinctive patch.

Les


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## Pacificshore (Jan 15, 2004)

Why all the pettiness over a school patch  A patch is used to cover up a tear in your gi, or prevent one:soapbox:


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## TheEdge883 (Jan 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Pacificshore _
> *Why all the pettiness over a school patch  A patch is used to cover up a tear in your gi, or prevent one:soapbox: *



Amen to that. Do people join a martial arts school because of the cool patch or uniform they wear?


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## Pacificshore (Jan 15, 2004)

> _Originally posted by TheEdge883 _
> *Amen to that. Do people join a martial arts school because of the cool patch or uniform they wear? *




Well, I choose which art I'm gonna study based on how cool their school patch looks    Plus, when I list my MA training on my resume, I can list the many styles I've studied based on their cool patches, Ha!:rofl: :rofl:


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