# Yuk Ro Hyung



## jehja43679

Greetings, again, everyone!

I hope this message finds you all in great health and spirits.

Similarly to the Chil Sung Hyung, I saw mention of the Yuk Ro Hyung in the 'Korean Karate...' thread and thought they deserved more attention.

The Yuk Ro Hyung were, at least, conceptualized in 1957, the same year that the founder, Hwang Kee, was presented with the Moo Yei Dobo Tong Ji.  The text was the motivation for two sets of hyung, the Yuk Ro (Six-Fold Path) and the Sip Dan Khum (Ten Levels of Silk).  Apparently, the Sip Dan Khum hyung are not taught outside of Korea.  At any rate, they won't be the topic of discussion in this thread.

The Six-Fold Path is related to the Chil Sung Hyung in its intent of development.  Where they differ is that the Chil Sung Hyung are intended to develop the artist as a person.  The Yuk Ro Hyung are intended to develop the artist as a warrior.

The Yuk Ro are described as:

Du Mun - The Great Gate - As a martial artist, you must open your mind to information.  Indeed, the gateway to the mind if often the most difficult to open, and why it is known as the Great Gate.

Joong Jol - Cut the Middle - As a martial artist, much of the information that passes through the Great Gate will be either useful information that is obscured by fluff, pure nonsense, or perhaps, purely useful knowledge.

Po Wol - Embrace the Moon - When you've cut through the middle and sorted what has passed through the Great Gate, embrace the information you've discovered and make it part of your energy.

Yang Pyun - High Whip - You will come to a point where your martial art skill will be at its highest, and as a warrior, you will be like a lone man, high atop a hill, wielding a whip, and no one will be able to touch you.

Sal Chu - Killing Hammer - Further down the road, you will have so much knowledge and power that you'll be able to kill with one blow, like a heavy hammer against your enemy.

Choong Ro - Seize and Capture - You will realize that with all your knowledge, it is not being untouchable or being able to kill with one blow that makes you a skilled martial artist, but being able to capture your enemy WITHOUT causing injury.

By practicing the Yuk Ro, you walk the path to becoming a great and noble warrior.


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## MBuzzy

Kyo Sa Enriquez,

Have you heard any more about the Federation's plans to publish information on the Yuk Ro hyung?  There has been an entry in the wiki for years, but nothing further.  The first 3 are published in the English Volume 2, but nothing of the last 3.  

Thank you for this post!  I have been trying to remember the "other" names of Yuk Ro Sa and Oh Dan Hyung.  Do you happen to know how people have come away from calling them by the Yuk Ro names?  I very seldom hear them referred to as such.  

Also, how are they pronounced in your school?  "Yuk - ro" or "Yoong - no?"  There has been some debate on this pronunciation issue.  I know that in standard Korean pronunciation, it should be "yoong - no," but I usually hear it the other way here.


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## JoelD

Mr. Mills,

My Sa Bom always pronounces it "yoong no" and occasionally calls them by their ordinal name, i.e. "Yuk Ro Cho Dan", Ee Dan, Sam Dan, etc... but mostly by the other name, "Du Moon", "Chung Jul", "Po Wol", etc... That used to confused the living heck outta me....lol. Before i realized that they were the same forms, that is...hehe

By the way Kyo Sa Enriquez, The new site for SBDMAA looks great! Cool commercial too. Soo Bahk!!


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## jehja43679

MBuzzy said:


> Kyo Sa Enriquez,
> 
> Have you heard any more about the Federation's plans to publish information on the Yuk Ro hyung? There has been an entry in the wiki for years, but nothing further. The first 3 are published in the English Volume 2, but nothing of the last 3.
> 
> Thank you for this post! I have been trying to remember the "other" names of Yuk Ro Sa and Oh Dan Hyung. Do you happen to know how people have come away from calling them by the Yuk Ro names? I very seldom hear them referred to as such.
> 
> Also, how are they pronounced in your school? "Yuk - ro" or "Yoong - no?" There has been some debate on this pronunciation issue. I know that in standard Korean pronunciation, it should be "yoong - no," but I usually hear it the other way here.


 
I had recently offered up a suggestion to produce Dan Instructional Guides, similar to the Gup Instructional Guides and DVDs.  I believe these efforts are still under consideration.  Additionally, there were member interest surveys that you may remember from the wiki to produce guides and DVDs just for the Yuk Ro Hyung.

As far as how people have gone about naming them, while their names, officially, are their ordinal names (as Joel mentioned) the "ancient" names from the Moo Yei Dobo Tong Ji are easier to identify with the hyung in many practitioners' minds because the movements within them are associated with these names, e.g. the Yang Kap Kwon Kong Kyuk equating to opening large doors...

Oh and in our Do Jang, we go with the 'Yoong-No' pronunciation...



JoelD said:


> By the way Kyo Sa Enriquez, The new site for SBDMAA looks great! Cool commercial too. Soo Bahk!!


 
Thanks so much!  I was really pleased with the commercial, and I planned the release of the site to happen with the first airing of the commercial.  I put a lot of energy into the site, so I'm happy that you and many others have said such kind words about it.


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## JT_the_Ninja

Hrm...the kinda things that made me wish the ITF did those forms. Cool stuff.


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## aarong

I have seen footage of Du Mun, Joong Jol, Po Wol and Yang Pyun. I was just wondering does anybody know if there is any footage anywhere of Sal Chu and Choong Ro?


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## MBuzzy

Your best bet for those forms is by finding some footage of a US SBD Fed Regionals or Shim Sa where they are being performed.  They are fairly high ranked forms, so the footage isn't out there much.


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## JoelD

As Craig stated those last 2 forms arent seen as much... hopefully at next years regionals i can get some footage of them during the Kodanja forms division.... if someone performs them. Last year the Kodanja performed every one BUT the Yuk Ros...lol

BTW: Sal Chu ( Yuk Ro O Dan) is a 4th Dan (Sa Dan) form and Choong Ro(Yuk Ro Yuk Dan) is a 5th Dan (O Dan) form in the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum.


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## MBuzzy

JoelD said:


> As Craig stated those last 2 forms arent seen as much... hopefully at next years regionals i can get some footage of them during the Kodanja forms division.... if someone performs them. Last year the Kodanja performed every one BUT the Yuk Ros...lol
> 
> BTW: Sal Chu ( Yuk Ro O Dan) is a 4th Dan (Sa Dan) form and Choong Ro(Yuk Ro Yuk Dan) is a 5th Dan (O Dan) form in the Moo Duk Kwan curriculum.


 
And actually, Joel is probably your best bet for getting the footage!  Ask nice!


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## aarong

ooo cool ....i must saw i would love to see them if you do manage to get footage


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## tsdmgk1336

I've seen them all, they emphsize alot of hip rotation. the way the movements are stacked within the hyung makes it very hard to excute the techniques without moving your hips....


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## tsdmgk1336

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Hrm...the kinda things that made me wish the ITF did those forms. Cool stuff.




I don't see nothing wrong with you learning them on the side...


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## MBuzzy

tsdmgk1336 said:


> I've seen them all, they emphsize alot of hip rotation. the way the movements are stacked within the hyung makes it very hard to excute the techniques without moving your hips....



That's a great point!  I had never really noticed that, although the fast/slow nature can make the hip movement a bit of a challenge at times.


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## astrobiologist

I've only learned the first Yuk Ro Hyung.  I haven't gone over it in a long time.

I would like to see more of the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung.  Is anyone out there who pratices/teaches these forms also teaching applications for them?  

One of the main reasons that I've become somewhat skeptic of a lot Tae Kwon Do and Tang Soo Do curriculums is that a lot of them seem to lack a form-applications curriculum (and in some cases a technique-application curriculum as well).  Please, no offense to anyone out there.  I am not saying that your school is horrible if you don't know what the movements from your forms mean, but I do think each martial artist should take the time to fully consider martial applications of their movements, otherwise their just doing gymnastics.

I've been working to analyze the movements of the 3 Chil Sung hyung that I know.  There's some good stuff in these forms.


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## Makalakumu

There's great stuff in these hyungs, but it's not addressed.  In my experience, they forms are practiced as choreographed dances.  I've dropped them from my practice because, at a certain point, there are just too many hyungs.  There's too much to focus on.


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## astrobiologist

maunakumu said:


> There's great stuff in these hyungs, but it's not addressed. In my experience, they forms are practiced as choreographed dances. I've dropped them from my practice because, at a certain point, there are just too many hyungs. There's too much to focus on.


 
Good point.  We must definitely find depth rather than width in our understanding (i.e. more meaning and less filler material).  If there is applicable material in the yuk ro hyung, that would be awesome.  But like I said I haven't seen much of these hyung to know if they are dance steps or martial maneuvers.  

I am personally not a fan of these deep front stances in forms and the torso facing straight on the opponent from a front stance.  That's a good way to exercise, but a horrible way to fight.  Am attacker in that position would end up looking up at me wondering what happened...  Forms are meant to be a collection of applicable techniques, not dances.


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## MBuzzy

astrobiologist said:


> Good point.  We must definitely find depth rather than width in our understanding (i.e. more meaning and less filler material).  If there is applicable material in the yuk ro hyung, that would be awesome.  But like I said I haven't seen much of these hyung to know if they are dance steps or martial maneuvers.
> 
> I am personally not a fan of these deep front stances in forms and the torso facing straight on the opponent from a front stance.  That's a good way to exercise, but a horrible way to fight.  Am attacker in that position would end up looking up at me wondering what happened...  Forms are meant to be a collection of applicable techniques, not dances.



I will say that there is certainly a lot of unique material in the Yuk Ros, stuff that isn't found in the classical hyung.  So there is definitely something there, if you are willing to take the time to find it.  There are not a lot of good, solid applications for these forms.  

Both the Yuk Ros and Chil Sung have the much more chinese style stance that is very deep and long, but neither really have much of the "torso facing straight on the opponent."  In fact, in a lot of the moves from Yuk Ro, it is very difficult to even do that, the movement and the hip usage almost forces you to turn your torso.


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## astrobiologist

MBuzzy said:


> Both the Yuk Ros and Chil Sung have the much more chinese style stance that is very deep and long, but neither really have much of the "torso facing straight on the opponent." In fact, in a lot of the moves from Yuk Ro, it is very difficult to even do that, the movement and the hip usage almost forces you to turn your torso.


 
Good to know.  Like I said I actually have almost no experience with the Yuk Ro hyung (except for the few video clips I've caught on Youtube).

I would like to know which styles of Chinese martial art the movements were taken from.  Many of the northern styles (which were closer to Korea obviously) that I have heard of have a lot of deep, pronounced stances and a lot of higher kicks, but from what I've seen most of their techniques still have many applications that are studied by their practitioners.


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## MBuzzy

That is unclear, but there is some reference to the So Rim Ryu that GM Hwang Kee may have studied with.


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## JWLuiza

astrobiologist said:


> I am personally not a fan of these deep front stances in forms and the torso facing straight on the opponent from a front stance.  That's a good way to exercise, but a horrible way to fight.



I never fight in a front stance, but in SD scenarios there are many times where I have control of the person and my feet are in a psuedo-front stance and my hips are forward.  I'm pretty comfortable and the other person isn't.

Forms =! Fighting
Forms = Self-defense combinations

There is a great application for low cross-blocks in front stance The 4th sequence in Pyung Ahn O Dan, where you have the person controlled via their neck/collar and are knocking them out with a cross punch. WIth the hip turned in and the attacker off balance it is a very strong application.


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## astrobiologist

JWLuiza said:


> I never fight in a front stance, but in SD scenarios there are many times where I have control of the person and my feet are in a psuedo-front stance and my hips are forward. I'm pretty comfortable and the other person isn't.
> 
> Forms =! Fighting
> Forms = Self-defense combinations
> 
> There is a great application for low cross-blocks in front stance The 4th sequence in Pyung Ahn O Dan, where you have the person controlled via their neck/collar and are knocking them out with a cross punch. WIth the hip turned in and the attacker off balance it is a very strong application.


 
I agree.  I wasn't saying that a front stance is not applicable to learn.  Indeed, I train in front stance very often.  I'm just not a fan of the deep front stance in forms or self-defense training.  I solely use the deep front stance for stretching and strengthening my legs.


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## tsdmgk1336

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Hrm...the kinda things that made me wish the ITF did those forms. Cool stuff.



 I don't see whats stopping you from learning these hyung. Just because someone tells you cant learn them is bull. Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the things you learn in the martial arts is to always grow and learn different things. thats why my Sbom nim is so sick of these organizations telling him he can't do this or do that thats why he left so he could better himself and his students. And believe me he has!!!!!


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## tsdmgk1336

We are currently learning the bunkai to the tradidtional cannon of hyungs as well as the chil sung and yuk-ro hyung and believe me a lot of the moves are very devestating to your opp.


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## MBuzzy

tsdmgk1336 said:


> I don't see whats stopping you from learning these hyung. Just because someone tells you cant learn them is bull. Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the things you learn in the martial arts is to always grow and learn different things. thats why my Sbom nim is so sick of these organizations telling him he can't do this or do that thats why he left so he could better himself and his students. And believe me he has!!!!!



While I agree with you, not doing the hyung is a political and "liability" issue.  It is one of those things that the heads of the organization probably don't like saying or doing, but have no choice. 

The US SBD Fed is pretty adamant about the protection of the intellectual property of the Hwang Family.  While the hyung themselves aren't really protected in any way, there have been a great deal of lawsuits regarding the use of names, logos, etc.  I have heard from some that the denial of the use of those hyung is an action to save them a lot of headaches and problems.


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## Makalakumu

The other thing to keep in mind is that these hyungs are changing.  When I learned them in 97-99, they were taught a particular way and were being performed with a different focus on various moves.  I learned them right from the source as my teacher's teacher was/is the regional examiner for the USSBDMDK Federation.  Years later, when comparing notes and movements it looked like we weren't even doing the same hyung anymore.  

On top of this, if you look at old published material of these hyungs, in some cases, new material has made this obsolete.  I've got an old version of Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Volume II where the Hwa Sun shown is not the Hwa Sun practiced now.  There are similarities, but they look like different hyung.  At some point, the hyung was rearranged and altered.  

That said, if you aren't in the Federation, you aren't really going to know what you are practicing.  You won't really be able to keep up with the changes and to tell the truth, why would you want to?  It would seem to me like it was more trouble then it was worth.


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## JT_the_Ninja

tsdmgk1336 said:


> I don't see whats stopping you from learning these hyung. Just because someone tells you cant learn them is bull. Tell me if I'm wrong but isn't one of the things you learn in the martial arts is to always grow and learn different things. thats why my Sbom nim is so sick of these organizations telling him he can't do this or do that thats why he left so he could better himself and his students. And believe me he has!!!!!



Gyeomson. 

I learn from my sabomnim.


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## JWLuiza

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Gyeomson.
> 
> I learn from my sabomnim.



Do you learn ONLY from your SBN?


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## JT_the_Ninja

I do practice on my own, naturally, and you all are very helpful...but I learn hyung when my sa bom nim teaches them to me... I've tried using a book, and it's just not the same. Plus, it's just a matter of respect. I'm not the master. 

As to hyung not in the ITF curriculum...they're interesting, and yeah the cool factor does make them appealing, but I've found that the curriculum I'm learning is more than sufficient. Skill isn't a matter of how many forms you know.


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## fuzbuckle

I'm also a member of the International Tang Soo Do Federation and in adding to what MBuzzy and JT said, we just recently had to change our federation logo to avoid any infringement on the intellectual property of the USSBDMDK federation.  Also, the Tang Soo Do that we learn is that of Choong Jae Nim Chun Sik Kim.  It's the same Tang Soo Do that he has been training in since he was 9 or 10 years old and that Tang Soo Do did not have the Yuk Ro or Chil Sung Hyungs.  And while Choong Jae Nim had his reasons for splitting with the USSBDMDK federation of which he was once Chairman and a Charter Member he still has the utmost respect for Great Grand Master Kwang Jae Nim Hwang Kee.  I was just at a seminar yesterday where Choong Jae Nim was passing along teachings that he learned directly from Great Grandmaster Hwang Kee.  It was truly awe inspiring.  However, though, like JT I have an interest in the Tang Soo Do that others speak of (I own SBD vol 1&2, SBD white, orange, green , and red gup manuals, Hwa Rang Tang Soo Do Federation manuals vol 1&2) I will keep with what my school teaches out of Respect for the Tang Soo Do of Choong Jae Nim, that I hope to one day pass along to my own students.  For me the International Tang Soo Do Federation is more than just a political organization that certifies my rank, It is my martial arts family.  If I go to train in another ITF school, I am welcomed and even honored as a guest in the training hall.  I have had the opportunity to train with Master Kim and It is an honor that he knows at which school I train and who my Sa Bom Nim is.  I'm not saying that other organizations don't have that, but to me, it is more important than the forms curriculum.  Sorry that my rant went way off topic but I've read so many things on a number of martial arts forums that just denigrate martial arts federations, that I wanted to say something positive about the federation to which I belong.


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## JT_the_Ninja

@fuzbuckle: I was wondering why they changed the logo...figured it might be something like that. All I heard was that we were changing logos.


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## tsdmgk1336

its because they were prob. threatend  with a lawsuit. in voalition of the trademark.


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## JWLuiza

sal choo hyung on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88Xgn5FJb6U&feature=grec


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## JWLuiza

possible yuk ro yuk dan?
http://www.youtube.com/user/SooBahkDoKorea#p/a/u/0/h13AJRwWiwo


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## MCzapka

it is yuk ro e dan


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## JoelD

This form is also known as Choong Jul.... if memory serves it means "Cutting through the center". In SBD curriculum it is a Cho Dan form.


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