# Rant...Inappropriate Music at the UFC Gym



## Gwai Lo Dan

I go to a UFC gym.  On weekends when there are no classes but the gym is open, trainers/coaches often put on their own music for their own workouts.  When the music has profanity, I ask them to play music without profanity. Typically they hesitate but change it. It's happened at least a 1/2 dozen times.

This weekend, the answer was "Well the trainer said if anyone complained to see him."

I said "oh, I have enough enemies. But here's my logic. When you have a poster of a man, woman, and kid on your window, that's your target market.  You play profane music, a woman comes in with her kid, and she quickly says "oh, this isn't the place for me and little Johnny".

The staff's response was, "well that's one customer. I'm more focussed on pleasing my co-worker than 1 customer."

My retort was, "well, I guess I have a different perspective.  I would be wanting to sign up everyone who walks in the door".

I've said before that "it's common business sense to not play profane music. Would the store next door play "f___ this, n...that," when they also have a poster of a family in the window?"

Ug...I find this gym so frustrating, because  I want it to succeed, but people seem to lack desire or common sense.


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## Danny T

Let corporate know.


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## MA_Student

Why would a little kid be coming into a ufc gym open session with mainly adults..lm assuming they have separate kids classes but I very much doubt an 8 year old is going to come to an open gym session full of adults


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## Danny T

MA_Student said:


> Why would a little kid be coming into a ufc gym open session with mainly adults..lm assuming they have separate kids classes but I very much doubt an 8 year old is going to come to an open gym session full of adults


That is because the Gym is OPEN and open to anyone who may be coming in to inquire about training, open to all members who may want to train. There are no classes but any member can come in and workout. A new perspective clients come in to check out the gym, the atmosphere, the equipment, what classes are available.
I agree the profane music in the gym is not conducive for new business especially if they are targeting family oriented persons.
Now if it is a back room closed to general members and for fighters only that may well be different.


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## Bill Mattocks

I have gone into fast-food restaurants when there was not much crowd and the workers were playing whatever music they preferred over the sound system; sometimes it has been more than a little bit obscene.

Knowing what complaining would get me, especially if my food had not been prepared yet, I simply chose to leave.  I dropped an email to the management later.  No point in making a scene at the time or arguing with the people who clearly want the music to be played.  If management doesn't choose to address the issue, I just don't go back.  They are free play whatever music they wish. I am free not to buy their products again.


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## Anarax

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I go to a UFC gym.  On weekends when there are no classes but the gym is open, trainers/coaches often put on their own music for their own workouts.  When the music has profanity, I ask them to play music without profanity. Typically they hesitate but change it. It's happened at least a 1/2 dozen times.
> 
> This weekend, the answer was "Well the trainer said if anyone complained to see him."
> 
> I said "oh, I have enough enemies. But here's my logic. When you have a poster of a man, woman, and kid on your window, that's your target market.  You play profane music, a woman comes in with her kid, and she quickly says "oh, this isn't the place for me and little Johnny".
> 
> The staff's response was, "well that's one customer. I'm more focussed on pleasing my co-worker than 1 customer."
> 
> My retort was, "well, I guess I have a different perspective.  I would be wanting to sign up everyone who walks in the door".
> 
> I've said before that "it's common business sense to not play profane music. Would the store next door play "f___ this, n...that," when they also have a poster of a family in the window?"
> 
> Ug...I find this gym so frustrating, because  I want it to succeed, but people seem to lack desire or common sense.



I see your point that this kind of music might deter potential clients. I also agree that from a business standpoint it's not a great idea. However; if it's the gyms policy that the trainers can play whatever music they want, then that's their facility and they can do so. If it's not their policy and the staffer was just appeasing their co-worker, then I would contact the owner of the facility and ask him if that's acceptable. Employees in general start to think that where they work is *There* business and make decisions that they don't have the authority to make. Check with the owner and see what he/she says.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Anarax said:


> However; if it's the gyms policy that the trainers can play whatever music they want, then that's their facility and they can do so.


 I doubt it's the policy, as there can be all sorts of issues in terms of copyright as well.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Bill Mattocks said:


> No point in making a scene at the time or arguing with the people who clearly want the music to be played.  If management doesn't choose to address the issue, I just don't go back.  They are free play whatever music they wish. I am free not to buy their products again.


Yup, I went in today to work out, and everyone is very friendly. If I were to push it, that may not be the case next time.

I think when something bothers someone, it's two fold: what the annoyance it, and how you perceive it.

I think I will resolve to not let the music or anything else bother me. "If that's what they want, so be it".


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## hoshin1600

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I doubt it's the policy, as there can be all sorts of issues in terms of copyright as well.


there is no copywrite infringement i am aware of playing music.  listening to music is its intended purpose.


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## JR 137

hoshin1600 said:


> there is no copywrite infringement i am aware of playing music.  listening to music is its intended purpose.


But playing it publicly may or may not be.  Kind of like the FBI warnings about showing a movie.  But it's really a worthless argument anyway.


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## Anarax

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I doubt it's the policy, as there can be all sorts of issues in terms of copyright as well.



Not really, no one is paying to listen to the music. The one playing the music already purchased it. The same thing goes for a salon or barbershop that plays a movie on the tv for customers. No one is paying the barbershop for playing the movie, thus copyright infringement doesn't apply.


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## Tez3

Anarax said:


> Not really, no one is paying to listen to the music. The one playing the music already purchased it. The same thing goes for a salon or barbershop that plays a movie on the tv for customers. No one is paying the barbershop for playing the movie, thus copyright infringement doesn't apply.



Not copyright as such but performing rights covers thing like playing recorded music in public and will apply in a gym so they are breaking the law if they haven't paid for a licence.


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## Charlemagne

I agree with the OP.  This is a problem.  People need to think about who they want as clients/students and realize that in most places, they have options.  The place I train GJJ right now is a good example of this.  It's the best place to train in town but, since the instructor drops F bombs on a pretty regular basis, when my son is old enough to train, I will be taking him to a place with a dedicated kids class that does not have that going on.


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## Gerry Seymour

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I doubt it's the policy, as there can be all sorts of issues in terms of copyright as well.


Most businesses have no idea about the licensing issues from just playing a radio where customers can hear it. A surprising number of folks in the pro audio world don't even understand some of the issue.


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## Gerry Seymour

hoshin1600 said:


> there is no copywrite infringement i am aware of playing music.  listening to music is its intended purpose.


Actually, it's a licensing issue. If music is played where customers can hear it (as in this case), the site (in most cases - sometimes another party) is required to pay for licensing. It's not terribly expensive, but it is a cost.


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## Gerry Seymour

Anarax said:


> Not really, no one is paying to listen to the music. The one playing the music already purchased it. The same thing goes for a salon or barbershop that plays a movie on the tv for customers. No one is paying the barbershop for playing the movie, thus copyright infringement doesn't apply.


It's not a copyright issue, but a licensing one. Even if folks aren't paying to hear the music, a license is required. That applies to barber shops, restaurants, hotels, etc. - even if it's playing a publicly broadcast radio station. Licensing for television appears to be handled differently - I'm not familiar with that area.


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## Tez3

gpseymour said:


> It's not a copyright issue, but a licensing one. Even if folks aren't paying to hear the music, a license is required. That applies to barber shops, restaurants, hotels, etc. - even if it's playing a publicly broadcast radio station. Licensing for television appears to be handled differently - I'm not familiar with that area.



We have to have licences to play music at MMA fight shows, any type of music including fighters own copies of their entrance music. We pay a central organisation which then sorts out the various royalties etc.


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## hoshin1600

i gotta write me a hit song


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Funny, I am watching Hired Gun about studio musicians, and Ray Parker Jr said it's better to have a classic song than a number 1 hit. I never thought of it that way, but I am sure Ray Parker Jr's royalty cheques are healthy every Halloween.

Hired Gun (2016) - IMDb


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Funny, I am watching Hired Gun about studio musicians, and Ray Parker Jr said it's better to have a classic song than a number 1 hit. I never thought of it that way, but I am sure Ray Parker Jr's royalty cheques are healthy every Halloween.
> 
> Hired Gun (2016) - IMDb


I've never seen that movie, but if you mean classical music I've heard the same thing. I can't remember exactly the logic, but I think it was basically music increases your adrenaline, and when you are learning to fight you shouldn't be relying on your adrenaline for it.


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## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> I've never seen that movie, but if you mean classical music I've heard the same thing. I can't remember exactly the logic, but I think it was basically music increases your adrenaline, and when you are learning to fight you shouldn't be relying on your adrenaline for it.


What I think the post you quoted meant was a classic song, not necessarily a classical song like, say, Mozart.

A classic song is one that everyone knows and has been around seemingly forever.  Like Ray Parker, Jr.'s Ghostbusters song -
When there's something strange, in the neighborhood
Who you gonna call?
Ghostbusters!
I ain't afraid of no ghosts

The classic song gets played on the radio and used in ads, etc. for decades, earning the artist a steady stream of money.

Queen's We Will Rock You, Led Zeppelin's Stairway to Heaven, even whoever the morons are who wrote and sang Who Let the Dogs Out.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

kempodisciple said:


> I've never seen that movie, but if you mean classical music I've heard the same thing. I can't remember exactly the logic, but I think it was basically music increases your adrenaline, and when you are learning to fight you shouldn't be relying on your adrenaline for it.


I don't mean "classical" but "classic" in the sense that the song is still known and popular, even if it wasn't a number 1 song at the time.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

A bit of an update.  

A couple more visits led to me working out during a couple more "F__" songs, even during classes, and I decided to quit.  But I typically go on the weekend, and I was told only the manager can process a quit, and that's during the week.

Well I was finally in the gym on a weekday yesterday, and we I asked for the manager by name, I was told he was no longer with the gym as of yesterday.

So I talked to the new manager, he agreed with my request to keep the music PG, and I'll stay.


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## donald1

in my goju class people never play music. occasionally the instructor turns on weird chinese music when we practice tai chi forms but thats about it. 

i don't like profanity in music either. there are too many words you can say without dropping profanity. nonetheless, how about a compromise? when they turn their music on why not simply turn it down low?


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## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it's a licensing issue. If music is played where customers can hear it (as in this case), the site (in most cases - sometimes another party) is required to pay for licensing. It's not terribly expensive, but it is a cost.


It's not a big deal in the U.S.  We literally have decades of people blasting music in their cards, boom boxes, gyms, and laborers playing music while they work.    You would spend more money trying to enforce that what it's really worth. 

It would make more sense to start with the radio stations that play the songs.

You will however get busted if you have an big public event and play the music without permission.  The Republican Party here can share a few stories about how they played music without the permission of the artist.


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## JowGaWolf

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> A bit of an update.
> 
> A couple more visits led to me working out during a couple more "F__" songs, even during classes, and I decided to quit.  But I typically go on the weekend, and I was told only the manager can process a quit, and that's during the week.
> 
> Well I was finally in the gym on a weekday yesterday, and we I asked for the manager by name, I was told he was no longer with the gym as of yesterday.
> 
> So I talked to the new manager, he agreed with my request to keep the music PG, and I'll stay.


no one likes having another person screwing up the income.  It's good that they got got back to running a business.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Actually, it's a licensing issue. If music is played where customers can hear it (as in this case), the site (in most cases - sometimes another party) is required to pay for licensing. It's not terribly expensive, but it is a cost.


This is true.   I don’t know if there are any others, but used to be BMI  and ASCAP used to cover virtually everything.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> This is true.   I don’t know if there are any others, but used to be BMI  and ASCAP used to cover virtually everything.


There is a third one I forget the name of. It’s not as big as BMI or ASCAP - about a quarter their size, IIRC. And a smattering of tiny ones. But licensing with BMI and ASCAP is still enough to be safe, probably.


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## Bino TWT

Technically, it is illegal for the trainers to play their personally purchased music (ipod, CD's, whatever)  in a business, period. There are also restrictions on public broadcasts such as TV and radio that have to be taken into consideration. A business may not broadcast copyrighted content without proper licensing.


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## Gerry Seymour

Bino TWT said:


> Technically, it is illegal for the trainers to play their personally purchased music (ipod, CD's, whatever)  in a business, period. There are also restrictions on public broadcasts such as TV and radio that have to be taken into consideration. A business may not broadcast copyrighted content without proper licensing.


It's not illegal if they pay the proper licensing fee. If music (broadcast or CD/MP3) is played where clients can hear it, they should be paying licensing fees.


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## Bino TWT

gpseymour said:


> It's not illegal if they pay the proper licensing fee. If music (broadcast or CD/MP3) is played where clients can hear it, they should be paying licensing fees.



It is illegal if the trainers are playing it. Personally purchased music is not for commercial use. Even if the establishment has a license, the material can not be the personal material of the trainers. This music is licensed to the consumer for personal use when they purchase it. The trainer would be legally required to have a Public Performance License from a Performing Rights Organization to play their personal material (and I think it's safe to assume they do not), and that makes the business responsible for the violation, which has been upwards of $20k for one song in some instances.  Playing your itunes playlist in a commercial setting is a violation of copyright law.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bino TWT said:


> It is illegal if the trainers are playing it. Personally purchased music is not for commercial use. Even if the establishment has a license, the material can not be the personal material of the trainers. This music is licensed to the consumer for personal use when they purchase it. The trainer would be legally required to have a Public Performance License from a Performing Rights Organization to play their personal material (and I think it's safe to assume they do not), and that makes the business responsible for the violation, which has been upwards of $20k for one song in some instances.  Playing your itunes playlist in a commercial setting is a violation of copyright law.


Thats what hes saying...that if they pay the licensing fee its legal. And we have no idea if the trainer in the OP paid a licensing fee. Whats the issue here?


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## Steve

Bino TWT said:


> It is illegal if the trainers are playing it. Personally purchased music is not for commercial use. Even if the establishment has a license, the material can not be the personal material of the trainers. This music is licensed to the consumer for personal use when they purchase it. The trainer would be legally required to have a Public Performance License from a Performing Rights Organization to play their personal material (and I think it's safe to assume they do not), and that makes the business responsible for the violation, which has been upwards of $20k for one song in some instances.  Playing your itunes playlist in a commercial setting is a violation of copyright law.


The BMI or ascap license is precisely so you can play the music.  Thats what you're paying for.   Ascap and BMI do not provide you with the music.   You get it by buying a cd or downloading it.  How else would you obtain the music?


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## pdg

Rules may vary with location...

Here, it's the responsibility of the facility or business to obtain a public performance licence, not the individual playing (or supplying) the music.


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## Gerry Seymour

Bino TWT said:


> It is illegal if the trainers are playing it. Personally purchased music is not for commercial use. Even if the establishment has a license, the material can not be the personal material of the trainers. This music is licensed to the consumer for personal use when they purchase it. The trainer would be legally required to have a Public Performance License from a Performing Rights Organization to play their personal material (and I think it's safe to assume they do not), and that makes the business responsible for the violation, which has been upwards of $20k for one song in some instances.  Playing your itunes playlist in a commercial setting is a violation of copyright law.


That's the purpose of the site license. A business with the appropriate site license can, in fact, play music from a consumer CD, iTunes playlist, etc. The site is responsible for the license, not the trainer. The same holds true for bars when a DJ plays - the bar is responsible for the site license, not the DJ.

SOURCE: Information is from discussions directly with the licensing agencies.


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## Gerry Seymour

pdg said:


> Rules may vary with location...
> 
> Here, it's the responsibility of the facility or business to obtain a public performance licence, not the individual playing (or supplying) the music.


The setup is the same in the US.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

gpseymour said:


> The setup is the same in the US.


Do you happen to know if this is state by state, or national?


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## Bino TWT

There's no "pay a fee and our trainers can play whatever they want off their ipod" license. That's not the way it works. Even if the business has a PPL for the other material they normally play, this does not cover whatever other material the trainers are playing. They can not play privately purchased music commercially, period. And it doesn't matter who plays it; if it comes from the sound system of that establishment, the business is responsible and liable. As for DJ's, they *should* be commercial. 

FYI, I've been in the music industry for decades, and am registered as a songwriter with ASCAP, and a publisher with both ASCAP & BMI. When I went to college for audio engineering, we had to take all of the music law classes.  

Don't take my word for it though:
7 Licensing Questions on Playing Legal Music in Your Business

It's national, btw.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bino TWT said:


> There's no "pay a fee and our trainers can play whatever they want off their ipod" license. That's not the way it works. Even if the business has a PPL for the other material they normally play, this does not cover whatever other material the trainers are playing. They can not play privately purchased music commercially, period. And it doesn't matter who plays it; if it comes from the sound system of that establishment, the business is responsible and liable. As for DJ's, they *should* be commercial.
> 
> FYI, I've been in the music industry for decades, and am registered as a songwriter with ASCAP, and a publisher with both ASCAP & BMI. When I went to college for audio engineering, we had to take all of the music law classes.
> 
> Don't take my word for it though:
> 7 Licensing Questions on Playing Legal Music in Your Business
> 
> It's national, btw.


Just read through that-as far as i can tell, as long as they are paying the license that the music is covered under theyre good. But just for the music that license covers. Which sounds like what everyone here is saying.
Also read, looking through it and another article quickly, noticed 2 things. If you get a bmi, ascap and sesac license, youre probably in the clear for whatever you play, and that if the business is less than 2000 square feet and have less than 6 speakers, you dont have to worry at all.


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## Bino TWT

Steve said:


> The BMI or ascap license is precisely so you can play the music.  Thats what you're paying for.   Ascap and BMI do not provide you with the music.   You get it by buying a cd or downloading it.  How else would you obtain the music?



From the licensing company:
*"Is it legal to play purchased iTunes music on my iPod/iPad/iPhone, CDs, MP3s or digital files for background music?*
It is common in our digital age to be confused as to whether we own our digital content.

When you pay to download music or even movies for that matter, you are essentially purchasing a license; you are leasing the content. Furthermore, you may only play this music in a non-commercial setting. You can listen to the songs to yourself as much as you like, but it is illegal to play in public.

Playing the downloaded music in your business, however, would violate copyright law because the act is now considered a public performance. Public performances require a Public Performance License (PPL) from performing rights organizations (PROs)."

If you could just play whatever you wanted, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to track royalties for the artists/songwriters/publishers, which is the sole purpose of ASCAP & BMI.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bino TWT said:


> From the licensing company:
> *"Is it legal to play purchased iTunes music on my iPod/iPad/iPhone, CDs, MP3s or digital files for background music?*
> It is common in our digital age to be confused as to whether we own our digital content.
> 
> When you pay to download music or even movies for that matter, you are essentially purchasing a license; you are leasing the content. Furthermore, you may only play this music in a non-commercial setting. You can listen to the songs to yourself as much as you like, but it is illegal to play in public.
> 
> Playing the downloaded music in your business, however, would violate copyright law because the act is now considered a public performance. Public performances require a Public Performance License (PPL) from performing rights organizations (PROs)."
> 
> If you could just play whatever you wanted, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to track royalties for the artists/songwriters/publishers, which is the sole purpose of ASCAP & BMI.


None of that is going what he is saying though. Hes not saying buying the music gives him the right to play it. Hes saying buying the license gives him the right, and buying the music gives him the ability.


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## Steve

kempodisciple said:


> Do you happen to know if this is state by state, or national?


It’s national, or at least was when I negotiated purchasing these licenses for four training production studios.


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## Steve

From the ASCAP site:
• ASCAP is a membership organization of more than 670,000 songwriters, composers and music publishers. Our members include both the hottest artists of today and the writers of your all-time favorite songs.

• Our license agreement makes complying with the law easy. U.S. copyright law requires you to obtain permission from music copyright owners to play their music in your facility. Instead of reaching out to hundreds of thousands of music creators yourself, a single ASCAP license agreement gives you permission to play music from any ASCAP member. We do the legwork so you don't have to (except in the gym).

• With an annual ASCAP music license, you have unlimited access to ASCAP's expansive catalogue of millions of songs which you can play as often as you want in a wide variety of ways. Whether it's off your computer, tablet, CD, online streaming service or even music provided by a DJ at club functions or classes - the music is licensed and you've complied with the law.

BMI works the same way.   They offer a blanket license.  You pay a fixed, negotiated fee, and can play any song from any artist in their library as many times as you like.


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## pdg

Bino TWT said:


> From the licensing company:
> *"Is it legal to play purchased iTunes music on my iPod/iPad/iPhone, CDs, MP3s or digital files for background music?*
> It is common in our digital age to be confused as to whether we own our digital content.
> 
> When you pay to download music or even movies for that matter, you are essentially purchasing a license; you are leasing the content. Furthermore, you may only play this music in a non-commercial setting. You can listen to the songs to yourself as much as you like, but it is illegal to play in public.
> 
> Playing the downloaded music in your business, however, would violate copyright law because the act is now considered a public performance. Public performances require a Public Performance License (PPL) from performing rights organizations (PROs)."
> 
> If you could just play whatever you wanted, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to track royalties for the artists/songwriters/publishers, which is the sole purpose of ASCAP & BMI.



That's pretty much what I said too.

The business/organisation/premises/event obtains a public performance licence which covers the public reproduction of music from any source.

They don't need to provide playlists to the ppl provider.

These licences are available to cover public playing of radio transmissions, and/or playing music from any media or format (MP3, cd, cassette tape, vinyl, 8 track, wax drum, whatever).

A premises that has a licence is covered for anyone who plays music on those premises with their permission (which is usually implicitly granted).

So, while paying to download a track (or buying a record) doesn't grant licence for public performance, obtaining a ppl does and as stated, these are usually based on the premises (or business, or event), not the individual.


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## pdg

Licence to play background music (PPL) - GOV.UK

Further reading


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