# What IS a Ninja?



## Cryozombie

There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.  

I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is... 

Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?


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## Touch Of Death

Technopunk said:
			
		

> There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.
> 
> I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...
> 
> Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?


I have read that through circumstance the ninja were of the lowest caste. To adhere to the basic honor system meant certain death; so, they were willing to take on jobs not becomming a Japanese. different groups mastered different things. Some were herbalists specializing in poisons, some were cat burglurs, some probably made cheap weapons for sale to non samurai, and a select few dawned the black outfits and assassinated whomever they were payed to assassinate. The word ninja means unseen or comoflage depending on whom you talk to. Unseen is more fitting as far as I'm concerned, because, its more fitting to the low caste stuation they found themselves in.
Sean


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## heretic888

> There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.



In "Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions", Hatsumi has a conversation between Takamatsu and himself in which Takamatsu states his grandfather, Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, was a samurai from Iga. The Toda family, if we go by the Togakure ryu lineage, has been involved in the "ninja arts" for several generations.

This, of course, is based on many assumptions --- including the veracity of the lineage in question.

I've come across a few things about the Iga no Bushi (the fellerz we call "ninja") in English (don't speak Japanese), and they are mostly categorized as jizamurai --- which is most definately *not* of "the lowest caste".



> I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...



Well... just ask yourself this: do you think the Ninpo of 300 years ago was taught the same as the Ninpo of 600 years ago??

Things change.



> The word ninja means unseen or comoflage depending on whom you talk to.



As before, I don't speak Japanese --- but I have a Japanese/English dictionary in front of me right now and the word 'shinobu' (the verb form of 'shinobi') doesn't mention anything at all about 'unseen' or 'camouflage'. The definition it gives is "to endure, to persevere, to be patient".

*shrugs* Laterz.


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## Taimishu

I dont know there has been a lot written about Ninja and hollywood has a lot to answer for.
I dont think that there is much doubt that Ninja existed and do exist today.  The mystical/superhuman powers attributed to them is most likely exageration.

As far as I can tell they seem to be based more like mercenarys and would have come from all levels not just the lowest caste, though it might be the only way an honest lower caste thug can get on in Japan, I dont know.
That they could do some amazing things seems to be beyond question. It must be nice to dissapear in a cloud of smoke at times,(chemical not supernatural) and the clothing makes sense. Who in their right mind dresses in dayglo colours when out at night and not wanting to be seen?
As for weapons probaly they all had their favorites and like good troops were trained in most if not all common weapons. It seems possible that they even invented some of there own weapons for specific targets.

Poison drugs stealth makes sense if you dont subscribe to some code of "honour" and it seems to me that all honour will get you is dead. Look at modern day "special forces" they seem to be the nearest to modern day Ninja indeed it may well be that Japans special forces have some Ninja or Ninja trained foces somewhere.

So what is the truth? beats the hell out of me but it is great to watch the Hollywood version and wonder.

Just my thoughts on the subject

David


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## Frank Anford

Has anyone ever heard about any people using these concepts for evil purposes? Like in modern day warfare or covert operations of other countries?

F.A.


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## heretic888

*snickers* Define 'evil'.


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## Cryozombie

heretic888 said:
			
		

> *snickers* Define 'evil'.



I'm Evil.

If you look up evil in the dictonary it often says "See Also Technopunk"


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## r.severe

I wrote this in 10/2000.
I am on my own musha shugyo, a ninja in the year 2004.
Please take the time to read it.
I feel it will explain what I am and understand to be a warrior or ninja.
..............................................................................................

The warrior tradition dates back long ago before records were kept, from koku (empty space). Humans are animals of survival, war and conquest. As far back as you can research the pages of history, walls of caves, scrolls of martial traditions you will find the survival methods we call combat. Human&#8217;s against environment, animals, and each other, just survival. A fact we must remember in these days of &#8216;911&#8217;, evangelist, religion and 7-11 stores wish to protect us from harm. 
Ok now onward with my silly note. At first you see me, Ralph as a simple, loud, silly, over weight, rude, and powerful looking human. Oh yes some of you see me as controlling. It&#8217;s just hard to image that in the shadow of this big body lies the information and wisdom of the musha shugyo. But after you get the picture you begin to realize I&#8217;m the inheritor of a living warrior tradition that can be dated back over 1,000 years of history. Wow, sounds neat! Well it is. And I&#8217;ve asked myself what it really is that I&#8217;m guiding others in and have the authority to pass on such life style as well from time to time. So this is what I&#8217;ve found out for myself and have been told by my seniors. Nothing new is written here but this can be taken as my point of view. Try to read between the lines and find the true meaning of what I&#8217;m trying to say here in this note. It takes much more than mere talent to become a warrior. It takes action and effort. These are the areas of training I&#8217;m experiencing on my musha shugyo. 
Ningu kusarifundojutsu (chain and weight), kagi nawajutsu (hook and cord), hojojutsu (cord tying), kyoketsushogejutsu (sickle and cord with a weight), kusarigamajutsu (sickle with a chain and weight), nawanagejutsu (rope throwing) are the skills of the flexible tools. These tools can be used for self-protection, survival, escape, and tying up your foe (hobakujutsu). The training can enhance the natural flow of the body to improve over all taijutsu. The wonderful circular motion of these types of tools helps the human understand the natural pattern of birth and rebirth. The flow build using these can enhance the strength of your personal defense. The hira ichimonji, hoko no kamae come from this training. 
Kyojitsu tenkan ho, divine sight is the approach of thinking. A strategy for winning that is based on the philosophy of deception strategy. The method of presenting falsehood as truth. Truth and false, false and truth. A concept of altering yourself and what is around you with psychological skills to bring about winning over your adversary. Many find this to be quite abstract in our life style of the 20-century. This does mean to have excuses of why you cannot and thinking it is ok because you know you are lying. This is a non-pure heart that is out of control. Lying is normal in our society and excepted as a way of life to hide the weakness and sickness of the heart. The true way is nintai jisei (perseverance and self-control). The righteous life of a human is not to others but to his own heart. &#8220;The way of the warrior is death&#8221; written in &#8216;Hagakure&#8217; an old Japanese text. This idea of knowledge is the base of Togakure ryuha ninpo. In shin tonkei, do the most with little effort. 
Suijutsu is the skill of swimming. To enter silently, survival of an over turned boat, for life saving another from drowning, use of boats, floats, water crossing with equipment, and combat with weapons and unarmed in the water. Good physical attributes help in the skills of suijutsu. This is also good therapy for injured bodies in recovery. 
Hensojutsu (disguise) and gisojutsu (impersonation). These skills give you the ability to be someone you&#8217;re not. To survive or to help others survive. This is beyond mere costume or the ninja shinobi shozoku. It is a way of life, hengen kashi (immersion in the illusion). Personality traits, different craftsman skills, entertainment skills, body movement, reaction skills, and even change of sexual like&#8217;s and dislikes can change your identity. You train in the areas of being a merchant, tradesman, musician, priest, entertainer, showman, wandering person, and teacher. This gives you the skills to blend in, to become invisible. Onshinjutsu or onshin tongyo no jutsu (art of invisibility, or disappearing) is like the modern day camouflage to the warrior. This can be broken down into omote goton no ho (wood, fire, earth, metal, water) and ura goton no ho (person, bird, animal, insect, fish) which together called jutton. Goton santon no ho (30 methods of escape). More of a comprehensive name would be tenchijin santon no ho. Tenton (sun, stars, moon, cloud, fog, thunder, lightning, wind, rain, snow). Chiton (wood, grass, fire, smoke, earth, house, metal, stone, water, boiling water). Jinton (males, females, old people, infants, nobility, poor, birds, animals, insects, fish). Many humans today use this as a lying system to their own heart. To blind the truth of their own weakness and excuses. This is not the true art and should not be used as hensojutsu. Ihen, Kage no kamae can be better understood with this training. 
Ningu bojutsu is the skill of using the stick as a tool for self-defense and survival. This can be a 6-inch, 12-inch, 3 feet, 4 feet, 5 feet, and 6 feet stick. This is the ningu no kihon (base of ninja tools) of the warrior&#8217;s training. It creates a strong kihon (base) for all other tools for self-protection. The training of these types of tools gives the human the skills of working a stiff tool as a flexible one. The skills learned from these sticks lead to a better understanding of taijutsu. Hira ichimonji, shizen, and ichimonji no kamae are the postures enhanced by the use of the bojutsu. 
Ningu shurikenjutsu is the skill of throwing blades of all shapes and sizes. The main ones are the senban (disk), bo (rod), and the hira shuriken (flat). Also the ax, spear, shovel, sticks, and rocks can be thrown. This area is important to the warrior because it gives him special tools to use in escaping an attack without contact against his foe. The use of metsubushi and tetsubishi are also part of the art of throwing things to escape. Jumonji no kamae, ukemi and sabaki can be enhanced by this type of training. 
Chimon is the skill of geography. Knowledge of the terrain can have a great importance to the warrior. Use of this skill can aid in escape, where to build your home, to get to an area quickly, grow food and concealment. Gotonpo, is the use of the natural elements to escape; wood, rocks, soil, land, and water. This training helps you understand nature better. Many humans live in the city with little or no knowledge or wisdom of nature. It takes years of study in the woods to have a good understanding of chimon. Seiza, hiza and fudoza no kamae are worked on a great deal with chimon. The attitude training is unmatched by any other training method during woodland experience. 
Seishin teki kyoyo is the skill of the spiritual training or personal clarity. Your heart has to be pure and righteous. You can say this ninpo training is to polish one&#8217;s character. (The heart; benevolence, righteousness, propriety, wisdom, and sincerity. The attitude; thoroughness in loyalty, self-love and filial piety). It is important to study continuously in meditation, in (going to, darkness, female, negative), yo (going from, lightness, male, positive), sanmitsu (3 secrets) and sanshin to develop the understanding of the dharma (law) of nature and hachimon tonkojutsu (prediction of the future). Warriors have to know the truth in their heart, weakness, and personal powers. This is where the kihon happo comes into the training. Kosshi sanpo refers to the tenchijin and sanshin and the torite goho is the path of enlightenment is the gogyo (five deeds). Bushin wa-o motte totoshi-to nasu &#8220;the martial heart holds harmony as sacred&#8221;. The ways of Tenchijin gives us 3 different ways of understanding our relationship with the universe. Ten, heaven, gives us the skill to work our environment influencing it to change. Chi, earth, gives us the skills to change ourselves to influence our environment. Jin, man, gives us the skills to leave the environment the same but to create the impression, illusion, to cause alternating realities to influence others view point. This is true kyojitsu ten kan ho. Something to ponder when dealing with me first hand. Don&#8217;t forget I live this and not just train it in a passive form. Life is way to short and it&#8217;s fun! 
Ningu sojutsu is the skill of spear. The warrior studies the methods of different types and lengths of spears. The are of throwing was also important. This tool was more for battlefield combat because of the over all length. Bojutsu training should come before sojutsu and shinobi zue. 
Ninpo taijutsu is the skill of using the body unarmed. Skills of dakentaijutsu (striking), jutaijutsu (grappling), taihenjutsu (rolls, footwork, jumping), nejutsu (ground skills), shinobi iri (stealth and entering) shikoro- handsaw, nata- machete, kagi- hook, kama- sickle, and kiri- small drill were the kaiki (breaking and entering tools), junan taiso (stretching, cardiovascular, conditioning), kiaijutsu sansei hiden no ho (3 main types of hidden voice skills)-(shosei &#8220;ya&#8221; breaking his spirit, kosei &#8220;aa&#8221; I&#8217;m going to attack, chisei &#8220;towa&#8221; stop hit), muto dorijutsu (weaponless defense), and hokojutsu (walking). These training methods help in keeping the warrior healthy and strong. The personal maintenance program I use is in your booklet, will help you in making a better life style. I also covered this in my end of year letter 11/8/00. This type of training is non-sport. It is the training of life and not of combat. Fighting is not the key in the life of a warrior. But survival is. So many benefits come from taijutsu it would be impossible to list them here. Training taijutsu does not mean training once or twice a week to better yourself. But everyday to 4, 6 times a week. 
Boryaku or heiho is the combat strategy the warrior uses to have the skill of shin-shin shin-gan (the mind and eyes of god) the divinely transmitted martial knowledge. This is also covered in your booklet, how to solve a problem, the 4 experiences of life, and factors for a better life. Kyomon (practical education) must be broad enough to provide you with means of understanding how to deal with everyday and special situations. To train in the warrior arts you must use unconventional tactics. These skills are used with the chimon, choho, tenmon, intonjutsu and others to have the out come you are wishing for during life. The heiho is the intertwining connection of the middle way. The bugeisha must possess natural justice in employing his skills. Without this area and the area of seishin teki kyoyo in his training he becomes just another martial artist. Heiho does not mean I will do it tomorrow or next month when it should be done now in the present. If you use the triangle of knowledge, past, present and future, you can better understand this method. Yugei (cultural arts) are important to the warrior. Painting, sewing, playing musical instruments, telling stories and jokes, dancing, and listening are very good skills of dexterity to have in your arsenal. 
Tenmon is the skill of meteorology. Understanding the weather and how to use it to his advantage. This skill goes together in the area of chimon. As we get older the weather becomes something else other than it really is. We get to a point where it controls our will. With the use of woodland survival training this changes back to when we were free of this weak condition. 
Ningu kenjutsu is the skill of swordsmanship. The warrior trains in the use of the ninja-to (medium sword), katana (long sword), shoto (short sword), tanto (knife), and tachi (large long sword). The skills of battojutsu (fast drawing) and fencing are the primary training methods use today. Use of two swords (nito), sword and knife, sword and short spear are also important for the warrior to train in as a secondary method of swordsmanship. It has been said that the sword is the backbone of the warrior. 
Kajutsu (fire) and kayakujutsu (explosives) is the skills of smoke, fire, and explosives. Use of teppo (firearm); pistol, rifle and shotgun, explosives, and uses of effective placement, timing, and rigging are a base skill for today&#8217;s warrior. Knowledge of these skills gives the warrior the power to understand the truth of political and society influence on the changing mental state of his community. The presentation of the truth relies on knowledge of false and truth so you can protect the eternal goodness of your life. 
Choho is the skill of espionage, reconnaissance or watching. I like to call this the art of observation. The method of how you learn information has a lot to do with what information you learn. Your intentions might be good but your method might fall short of proper choho. To listen is better than to speak at times. And some of us have obtained the skill of talking a great deal and learning from our host. This skill goes together in the area of hensojutsu. The best place to watch is in the mirror. Our weakness must be in our hearts. Watch the eyebrows. 
Ningu shuko (hand claws), kunai (shovel), hashigo (ladder), ninyaku (medicines), dokuyaku (poisons), ninyashiki (house defense), naginata (halberd), bisento (large halberd), yumi-ya (bow and arrow), ono (large ax), fukiya (blowgun), toami (net), tessen (iron fan), jutte (iron rod), shinobi zue (hidden cane weapon), handkerchief, sarong, whip, nekode (cat&#8217;s claws), sokutoki (blowing tools), and tekkan (iron fist), are all part of the warriors training but fall into a lesser importance than the above training. Still the skills should not be over looked. All training is good training. 
The warrior works his world instinctively and consciously with 3 levels of helpers or agents. Most of them never have knowledge they are part of a bigger scheme of someone else&#8217;s life. All of these people are healthy, honest, and knowledgeable in a field of use to the warrior. The warrior creates followers from the community around him to support his efforts of enlightenment, friendship, trust, love and happiness. This way he hides his true personal powers from dangerous cult like people looking for a quick fix. 
The warrior, a human who has become powerful in every facet of his life, can demonstrate their love to others by giving his ability to protect his family from emotional, financial, political, physical and spiritual harm. In turn the warrior can help others to become warriors so they can also protect themselves from the same kinds of harm. He then becomes the guide, having the ability to protect others and teaching others how to protect themselves. It is important to help humans in the process of learning. Everyone should grow through healthy experiences with each other&#8217;s help. 
A lot can be said about becoming a warrior. The path takes you away from being comfortable at home watching TV. The wonderful potential of person freedom can be a lonely path. But the pursuit of your discoveries on this path can out weight the harmful actions taken towards you as you walk on. The commitment to personal freedom is life long. The relentless friends, family, and employers can become a living realm of &#8220;hell&#8221; of unhappiness. Their disease can consume you, not wanting you to become whom you set out to become is a perspective I can not understand or except in this lifetime. Home, loved ones and friends should be our support system on our journey through life. This all can change with your love for yourself becomes noticeable to them. The people around you can become afraid to lose you to yourself. I must do what I feel &#8220;right&#8221; for me. And it is a tragedy to leave behind the feelings, warmth, smiles, sex, friendship, money and etc. to walk away free within your own heart. Once you put behind you the fear and ego of the symbolic world we live in all the joys and love will come to you each and every day of your life. The enemy never thinks to appear before you as a warrior. It is simple, those who do not wish to be healed will not be healed. So just do it for your self now. Be healed. 


ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Ninja = the Samurai who ran away ("He who fights and runs away, live to fight another day. He who stands ground bold and brave, digs himself an early grave").

From the short tiger-guy to that Hat-sue-me guy (I guess what they call 'oral tradition')...1 samurai laying under tree, wounded, sees another happy samourai on way to battle. Samurai 1 sez to Samourai 2, "Don't go in there; it's dark" (kinda like Bugs to Gossamer in that cartoon with the little bald mad scientist and the ether).  Sam 2 concurs, and the 2 slip off happily ever after, exchanging & combining notes on style and form.  2 seasoned men of *warrior caste* who grew the smarts to avoid certain death, and pass on the willingness to survive through superior technique, superior training, and most importantly, the idea that it is sometimes better to quit and come back at the whole thing from another perspective then to beat yer head on a wall till it breaks wide open. ("You might tan my hide now and put me in the hospital, but you better make sure you do it right.  I know where you live, and you might not wake up." Just watch for squeaky toys placed near windows and stairs...anti-ninja alarm system)

Dr. Dave

(Chinese kempo w/ Taijutsu links...hint, hint)


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## heretic888

Well, there have been many "sneaky" or "deceptive" samurai in both Japanese history and mythology. Not all of them are regarded as shinobi no mono (or "ninja"). The story of Prince Yamato Takeru suddenly comes to mind.

It was my understanding that the character _shinobi_ was not used to classify particular groups of people until sometime in the 14th century, and even then it was used explicitly in reference to the Iga-shu and Koga-shu.

Of course, I might be mistaken.  :asian: 

On a side note, anyone here know if the phrase _shinobijutsu_ was ever actively referenced in historical texts prior to the publishing of such manuals like the Bansenshukai?? Meaning, was the term ever really used in other schools before the ryuha of Iga and Koga gained a modicum of repute??

Laterz all.


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## loki09789

Ninja as an operator is only one guy in a network of covert/intell family/regionally political groups.  Like any military/operative unit, there was a baseline of skills and specialties.  It would be the equivelant, on an individual level of comparison, to conventional soldiers as samurai and the spec ops/espionage types as the ninja.  Some were specialists in intelligence, assasination, communication, insurgency.....

I think, to a degree, any political/family group in Japan could have been deemed a "Ninja" family because of the types of tactics and networking that was just business as usual in the day.  Today, every major government has Intel operative networks.  The difference is in who is runnig the show.  Now, it is the central governments of nations.  IN the past it was the regional/families recognized by the Emporer/Shogun.. before that, it was still very decentralized, and even more important because of the instability to know what was going on.


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## heretic888

> It would be the equivelant, on an individual level of comparison, to conventional soldiers as samurai and the spec ops/espionage types as the ninja.



Dunno about that. There were (and are) a _lot_ of 'samurai' koryu that include the arts of stealing-in, sneakiness, and all-around skullduggery. At least to some degree.

Also, if I am not mistaken, most of the members of the Iga-shu and Koga-shu themselves were supposed to be 'samurai', as well.

Not so black and white, neh??  :uhyeah:



> I think, to a degree, any political/family group in Japan could have been deemed a "Ninja" family because of the types of tactics and networking that was just business as usual in the day.



Yeah, but as a matter of history, they just plain weren't.

Yamato Takeru is never described as a shinobi in any history book I've come across, nor are any of the umpteenth betrayals, assassinations, or deceptions commited by 'samurai' in these books ever described as acts of shinobijutsu.

It's an interesting take on perception, to say the very least.  :asian:


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## chidarake

In Japaneese ninja means hard working person. I take Ninjutsu and realize not all ninjas were assassins some were body guards and soo many people see them as the bad guys... but thats not true at all. however most ninja were trained in the art in stealth and camoflage concealment and survival...and many other things as well but a true ninja is one with nature

n.owhere
i.nvisible
n.ature
j.ovial
a.dapt
thats what ninja means to me...


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## mantis

Technopunk said:
			
		

> There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.
> 
> I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...
> 
> Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?


 it's easy
 they're samurai during the day
 and ninja at night
 they just have two jobs to support family


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## heretic888

So, _samurai_ was a 'job', huh?


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## Cryozombie

Sure... in the way that "Ranger" or "Seal" is a job, I suppose.  Only... they are mostly born into it, and members for life, and...

no I guess thats a bad example.


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## heretic888

_Samurai_ was a rank, a title, a position, a label of social status in feudal Japanese culture. Strictly speaking, all it meant was that you were a vassal ('one who serves') that had pledged fealty to a given individual or individual's family; it didn't necessarily mean you could fight. The clan accountant or historian could have been a _samurai_ with no problem whatsoever.

Not all _samurai_ were warriors, nor were all warriors _samurai_. This was especially true when referring to the time before the 1580's, when the delineations between social classes was very, very fluid. Oda Nobunaga, for example, was born the son of a farmer. Despite this, he worked his way up the military ladder (beginning his career as a modest _ashigaru_) and at one time had a pretty good shot at becoming _shogun_.

The term _ninja_ (or _shinobi-no-mono_), by contrast, seemed to have had a pretty specific role and set of skills in mind. Perhaps the earliest reference to mention _shinobi_ groups, an Ashikaga document called the _Nochi Kagami_, states: "Concerning _shinobi-no-mono_, they are said to be from Iga and Koga and went freely into enemy castles secretly. They saw hidden things and were considered allies. Strategists call them _kagimono hiki_." In the _Bansenshukai_, Fujibayashi Yasutake stated: "The elements of _nin_ [or _shinobi_] are covert [activity], information gathering, disguise, and surveillance." Similarly, in the _Shoninki_, Natori Masazumi wrote of the _ninja_: "_Ninja_: This is the Japanese _kanja_. [The _ninja_], always without questioning [the difficulty], operates regardless of whether its day or night. It is similar to _nusubito_ [thief], but the _shinobi-no-mono_ does not still. [The _shinobi-no-mono_] gathers information even if the place is difficult to reach. Even if there isn't a road, [the _shinobi-no-mono_] will return with information. This is a specialist of stealth. That is to say, these are the ultimate skills."

And, as a matter of history, most _ninja_ were indeed _samurai_.

Laterz.


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## Bigshadow

Naruto says he is a Ninja....


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## heretic888

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Naruto says he is a Ninja....



"Believe it!"  :lol:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

It's not that I have anything specific against Naruto, it's just that I believe it to be Satan's spawn sent here to destroy the planet Earth.


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## Bigshadow

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It's not that I have anything specific against Naruto, it's just that I believe it to be Satan's spawn sent here to destroy the planet Earth.


 I see you saw the last episode.   :ninja:  j/k of course.


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## mantis

a position? rank?
can I apply and become a ninja?
what's their website anyway?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I see you saw the last episode.  :ninja: j/k of course.


Umm, no, that was an attempt to paraphrase one of my own personal heroes, "The Dark Poet".


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## heretic888

mantis said:
			
		

> a position? rank?



Yes. 

Before the 1580's, _samurai_ was nothing other than a social class. After the 1580's and until the 1870's, _samurai_ became a social caste.

At no point, however, was _samurai_ a clearly defined 'job'.



			
				mantis said:
			
		

> can I apply and become a ninja?



Nope. 

The _samurai_ and _ninja_ are both gone now, much to the dismay of teenage fanboys throughout America.



			
				mantis said:
			
		

> what's their website anyway?



Whatever you want it to be, I suppose.

Laterz.


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## mantis

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> Before the 1580's, _samurai_ was nothing other than a social class. After the 1580's and until the 1870's, _samurai_ became a social caste.
> 
> At no point, however, was _samurai_ a clearly defined 'job'.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope.
> 
> The _samurai_ and _ninja_ are both gone now, much to the dismay of teenage fanboys throughout America.
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever you want it to be, I suppose.
> 
> Laterz.


 sorry, i thought i was trying to be "funny"
 anyway, I actually watched a documentary about the Samurai the other day and how they were defeated
 the documentary showed that all the efforts and blood invested by the samurai just went away for nothing
 the emperor wanted to be westernized and wanted a more modern way of defense than the samurai
 what's interesting, and i think sad, is towards the end of the documentary they showed the current young generation of japanse all adapting the western culture without thinking, and without picking what suits them and omitting what doesn suit them.
 it shows you tons of teen agers sitting on the streets playing metal music and what not, all tattooed, dressed like goths and so forth. im not suggesting there's something wrong with those things. but it's sad when they leave a huge culture and history and run after another culture! (i think!)


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## heretic888

No offense, mantis, but I think that's a topic for another discussion. 

Laterz.


----------



## Cryozombie

mantis said:
			
		

> it shows you tons of teen agers sitting on the streets playing metal music and what not, all tattooed, dressed like goths and so forth. im not suggesting there's something wrong with those things. but it's sad when they leave a huge culture and history and run after another culture! (i think!)


 As an aging rivethead, I just gotta say, Goth chicks are hot... Asian Goth Chicks are even hotter.

 If I could find an asian goth chick who studied Bujinkan, Id be her Rivethead Love-slave in a NANO-SECOND.

 NANO-SECOND.


----------



## mantis

Technopunk said:
			
		

> As an aging rivethead, I just gotta say, Goth chicks are hot... Asian Goth Chicks are even hotter.
> 
> If I could find an asian goth chick who studied Bujinkan, Id be her Rivethead Love-slave in a NANO-SECOND.
> 
> NANO-SECOND.


 LOL
 like he said
 off-topic
 off-topic!!


----------



## mantis

heretic888 said:
			
		

> No offense, mantis, but I think that's a topic for another discussion.
> 
> Laterz.


 i had to say something to prove my seriousness after a serious of unsuccessful stupid jokes of mine!!
 i happen to watch like 3 documentaries a week... u dont want me to start a discussion about them here, trust me!


----------



## heretic888

A slight correction...



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> Oda Nobunaga, for example, was born the son of a farmer. Despite this, he worked his way up the military ladder (beginning his career as a modest _ashigaru_) and at one time had a pretty good shot at becoming _shogun_.



My mistake, guys. I confused Oda Nobunaga with Toyotomi Hideyoshi here. My bad. 

Laterz.


----------



## Kizaru

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Goth chicks are hot... Asian Goth Chicks are even hotter.
> 
> If I could find an asian goth chick..., Id be her Rivethead Love-slave in a NANO-SECOND.


You have heard of _Harajuku_, haven't you???


----------



## Andrew Green

heretic888 said:
			
		

> The _samurai_ and _ninja_ are both gone now, much to the dismay of teenage fanboys throughout America.


 That's what they _want_ you to think


----------



## Kreth

mantis said:
			
		

> but it's sad when they leave a huge culture and history and run after another culture! (i think!)


As opposed to, say... a newbie martial artist who suddenly develops a fascination with all things Japanese? :idunno:


----------



## heretic888

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> That's what they _want_ you to think



"Believe it!"  :ninja:  :ninja:  :ninja: 

Sorry. Couldn't help myself. 

Laterz.


----------



## Cryozombie

Kizaru said:
			
		

> You have heard of _Harajuku_, haven't you???


No clue.

Enlighten me.


----------



## mantis

Kreth said:
			
		

> As opposed to, say... a newbie martial artist who suddenly develops a fascination with all things Japanese? :idunno:


 im trying not to post too much LIKE I WAS INSTRUCTED!!
 but i wanna say, with no offense, that being impressed coming from a 300 year civilization by a 3000 year civilization is by no means equal to leaving the 3000 years of civilization for the 200 one!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Ninjas are mammals, right?


----------



## Jelik

Having done 5 years of Ninjutsu a number of years back, I found this all veyr interesting - thanks!


----------



## Cryozombie

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Ninjas are mammals, right?


Stop it.


----------



## Andrew Green

Birds (Penguins) actually


----------



## Don Roley

Technopunk said:
			
		

> No clue.
> 
> Enlighten me.



Harajuku is a stop on the line that goes in a circle through the center of Tokyo. On Sundays every goth chick within 100 kilometers of the city center descend on it to just hang out and talk with others that think the same way.


----------



## Cryozombie

Well. Hell. 

That does me no good.


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Stop it.


Sorry


----------



## Cryozombie

OOH.

Unless you wanna stuff one in a box and mail her to me.

Goths like cramped, dark places.


----------



## shesulsa

Technopunk said:
			
		

> OOH.
> 
> Unless you wanna stuff one in a box and mail her to me.
> 
> Goths like cramped, dark places.


 _*biting my tongue* *biting my tongue* *biting my tongue*_


----------



## Lisa

shesulsa said:
			
		

> _*biting my tongue* *biting my tongue* *biting my tongue*_



oh, spit it out already! You're turning purple and your tongue is bleeding


----------



## Cryozombie

shesulsa said:
			
		

> _*biting my tongue* *biting my tongue* *biting my tongue*_


What?  What?

I know I know... this thread has, (mostly due to me) degenerated WAY off topic.  My apologies to everyone who wants to know what a ninja is.


----------



## heretic888

Technopunk said:
			
		

> What?  What?
> 
> I know I know... this thread has, (mostly due to me) degenerated WAY off topic.  My apologies to everyone who wants to know what a ninja is.



Hrmmm.... maybe a thread split is in order?? 

Laterz.


----------



## Cryozombie

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Hrmmm.... maybe a thread split is in order??
> 
> Laterz.


And what in heavens name would the split be?

"Stuffing Japanese Goths in Boxes: Was What is a Ninja"

LOL


----------



## Lisa

Technopunk said:
			
		

> And what in heavens name would the split be?
> 
> "Stuffing Japanese Goths in Boxes: Was What is a Ninja"
> 
> LOL



the fettishes of a ninja?


----------



## Cryozombie

Lisa said:
			
		

> the fettishes of a ninja?


I think we established early in the thread that there are no such things as ninja anymore.


----------



## heretic888

Oy vey.


----------



## Bigshadow

Jelik said:
			
		

> Having done 5 years of Ninjutsu a number of years back, I found this all veyr interesting - thanks!


 Hopefully you didn't take this thread seriously...:O  

 I certainly didn't, I thought it was more humorous than serious.


----------



## heretic888

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Hopefully you didn't take this thread seriously...:O
> 
> I certainly didn't, I thought it was more humorous than serious.



Well, I tried to be serious with post #17.  :asian: 

Laterz.


----------



## Bigshadow

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Well, I tried to be serious with post #17.  :asian:
> 
> Laterz.


 I apologize if what I said appeared to be disrespectful of your post. I agree there were a couple of serious answers. However, in my opinion, the question posed by the thread starter can be taken the wrong way and likewise with the answers given. Hence, my less than serious post.


----------



## Cryozombie

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Well, I tried to be serious with post #17. :asian:
> 
> Laterz.


I started serious too... it devolved somewhere around my requests for a Goth-in-the-box.


----------



## Kizaru

Lisa said:
			
		

> the fettishes of a ninja?


 
Don Roley!


DON ROLEY!!



DON ROLEY!!!!


Come quick before I post something I know I shouldn't!!!!



Aaaargh!!!


----------



## Don Roley

Dude, my sex life is my business. Not a well paying one, but the hours are good.
 :2xBird2:


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

If anyone is interested and didn't know this before, "kunoichi" roughly translated means "nine plus one" or "one more than nine".

It's got something to do with bodily openings. :asian:


----------



## Don Roley

I am officially declaring this thread out of control.

I think it should either be renamed, or split off with a new title of "ninja fun." After all the problems we have seen in the past, it would be nice to see a thread devoted to silliness.

And besides, Kizaru and I need a place to post the picture we are planning on taking.  :ultracool


----------



## Shinkengata

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I have read that through circumstance the ninja were of the lowest caste. To adhere to the basic honor system meant certain death; so, they were willing to take on jobs not becomming a Japanese.



I once read where Soke said something to the effect of the Bushido code being "for cannon fodder"..


----------



## heretic888

From a 1998 interview with Bernard Bordas:

_Hatsumi sensei: Foreigners have a caricatural view of Japan and BUDO. Many have discovered the samurai and the Bushido trough the American novel « shogun ». What most don't know is that the book « Bushido » was written by Inazo NITOBE (a university student) in 1899, meaning 32 years after the disappearance of the last samurai, moreover, the writings in that book were based on an epic novel made of 11 volumes (Hagakure Kikigaki) written in memory of warriors some 150 years earlier, by the monk Yamamoto Tsunetomo. That book extols, through its stories, the idea that « the way of the warrior is death ». Before being a monk, Yamamoto Tsunetomo served the Nabeshima clan in the writings/account department, and so never had any real experience of combat, and was neither a martial arts master. As you can see, neither the book « BUSHIDO, the way of the samurai », neither it's inspiration « HAGAKURE KIKIGAKI, notes collected in the leaves' shadow », were written by warriors, but by dreaming and nostalgic intellectuals during a period of peace and so, have nothing in common with the essence of BUDO._

Laterz.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

My favorite example of the "reality" of medieval Japanese warfare is the way they treat their swords during the final battle in "The Seven Samurai".


----------



## Cryozombie

Nimravus said:
			
		

> My favorite example of the "reality" of medieval Japanese warfare is the way they treat their swords during the final battle in "The Seven Samurai".



Damn it.  Now I have to go watch this again, cuz I dont remember.  And its a 2 disk movie, so I have to switch disks in the middle. 

Grrr.


----------



## Cryozombie

I had to bring this back to life, because its been like a year, and no one has sent me a Goth in a box yet.

What gives?


----------



## Don Roley

Technopunk said:


> I had to bring this back to life, because its been like a year, and no one has sent me a Goth in a box yet.
> 
> What gives?



We are still waiting on Shesulsa to stop biting her tounge and tell us what the hell she is thinking.

Besides, all packages to the states have to have customs declarations on the contents. Can you imagine the looks we would get turing in an honest declaration at the local post office?


----------



## kingkong89

a ninja is a samurai who has dishonored the samurai and the code of bushido. in fudal japan there was a group of these worriors called the ninja. they were the assassins during this time.


----------



## Kreth

kingkong89 said:


> a ninja is a samurai who has dishonored the samurai and the code of bushido. in fudal japan there was a group of these worriors called the ninja. they were the assassins during this time.


Source?


----------



## kouryuu

A comic????:wink1:


----------



## Xiberia

Kreth said:


> Source?



Karl Beatties book on Japanese history and relevence to today?


----------



## Bigshadow

Xiberia said:


> Karl Beatties book on Japanese history and relevence to today?



You made me have to go look up his name!  HAHAHAHA :rofl:


----------



## Xiberia

Bigshadow said:


> You made me have to go look up his name!  HAHAHAHA :rofl:



...And what did you find, says I, laughing at the prospect of a e-budo search.


----------



## Kreth

I'm surprised no one chimed in with the "ninja as oppressed freedom fighter" theory...


----------



## Bigshadow

Xiberia said:


> ...And what did you find, says I, laughing at the prospect of a e-budo search.



Actually he has his own wiki entry with no cited sources!


----------



## Xiberia

Bigshadow said:


> Actually he has his own wiki entry with no cited sources!



And having e-budo linked from Karls Wiki, must be very painful for him.


----------



## Don Roley

Xiberia said:


> Karl Beatties book on Japanese history and relevence to today?



Is there really anything about the  ninja in something he wrote?

I see the original guy seems to have taken the message and hopefully will check his facts a little better next time.


----------



## Goldendawn8

Ninjas wear all black and can run very fast and quietly at the same time.


----------



## Xiberia

Goldendawn8 said:


> Ninjas wear all black and can run very fast and quietly at the same time.



Nope.. You must be thinking of Rugby.


----------



## SageGhost83

Cryozombie said:


> There is SO much specualtion... I have read in posts people think the Ninja/samurai were the same, others that they were distinctly separate.
> 
> I have seen posters who claim that Ninpo as its taught today is not the art of the ninja of japan... Some instructors say it is...
> 
> Historically what WERE the ninja really... and what are they today?


 
The difficult part about defining ninja is that so much of what the ninja are/were was based just on that - speculation. They weren't exactly the most open of all orgs/groups, and their history is very sketchy even among the japanese themselves. Personally, I would say that yes, the ninja and samurai were not mutually exclusive. There was allegedly a lot of crossover, Hanzo Hattori being a prime example of this. From what little that we actually do know about the ninja, they were very adaptable - sort of the JKDer's of their time, taking anything and everything that was useful to them. As far as ninpo, I can't help you with that one. Heaven knows what the ninpo of back then was like, it was probably hidden even moreso than the tools and techniques that the ninja applied on a daily basis. Ninja, from what I learned, were originally bandits and outcasts - the untouchables of japanese society. However, much like the samurai, they rose up from the grunt level and became a powerful force within japan. There were ninja who joined the ranks of the samurai, and there were ronin or disgraced samurai who fled and joined the ranks of the ninja. There were ninja who were hired by local daimyo as spies, assassins and saboteurs to be used against rival daimyo. There were also ninja who were flat out criminals who used their skills to terrorize and prey on the weak, similar to how some samurai operated. It is only natural that ninja and samurai burrowed skills from each other because they often crossed paths in the feild. So all in all, the ninja were untouchables within japan who became very skilled and powerful, rose up to become a powerful faction within japan similar to how the samurai rose from the grunt status but not quite as accepted or widespread, and penetrated the highest levels of society. Um...and that is about all that I have. This is what I learned and was taught, and I am in no way claiming that this is more true or false than what anyone else has stated. Just putting my foot into the circle. Sorry for the rambling.


----------



## ninpo101

if you ppl dont like to read and are really interested in 
the "modern ninja" watch these videos




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1LmZhQlAOk&mode=related&search=
Enjoy:ultracool


----------



## Don Roley

SageGhost83 said:


> Ninja, from what I learned, were originally bandits and outcasts - the untouchables of japanese society.



Could you please tell me what *Japanese language* sources you used to research this pearl of wisdom you have shared with all of us? Or for that matter, the rest of what you wrote.


----------



## SageGhost83

The japanese language sources? This is what I learned about the ninja while I was in college. I had a minor in asian studies and my prof. had a masters in the subject. I am stating what he taught to me, and what was in my notes from class. Just providing another voice/viewpoint to add to the discussion, take it with a grain of salt just as I have taken it with a grain of salt. Actual truths regarding the ninja are sketchy at best, seeing as how they were and still are obscure even in their own country. What books/sources did he get the info from? I am not completely sure, he didn't really use too many books during his lectures, he spent many decades living in japan, china, and india, so most of his lectures came from personal experience and knowledge that he gleaned while he was over there. "Rice as Self", "Go Rin No Sho", "Tale of Genji", and handouts with snippets from a ninja scroll or something (I forgot about that one, I was too busy trying to learn about samurai women and the naginata methods they used at the time) were the only texts that I recall from the old History of Japan 400 class. He used some others, but I have forgotten what they were. Again, I am just adding another viewpoint to stimulate discussion. I don't know if the ninja were outcasts or not, I didn't live in japan during that era, and neither did anybody else on this forum. So most of what we know about them is glorified speculation. We have far more knowledge about, say, karate - and look at how many questions and loose ends we have with that story. So I should have put a big ALLEGEDLY in my post. Sorry about that.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

SageGhost83 said:


> What books/sources did he get the info from? I am not completely sure,


 
:ultracool


----------



## heretic888

SageGhost83 said:


> What books/sources did he get the info from?


 
Based on the information you've told us, my guesses would be Donn Draeger, Andrew Adams, and Stephen Hayes.

The "ninja" per se didn't really exist until the end of the 15th century, right around the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai, and they were certainly held in high regard by both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates. That being said, they did have ancestral forerunners --- powerful families in Iga Province such as the Oe, Hattori, and Momochi who managed the "estates" (officially owned by the Todai-ji in Nara) --- who, from time to time, refused to pay taxes to the Todai-ji and sometimes attacked their officials.

Well, the Todai-ji certainly thought these people were "bandits" (akuto) and called for their summary executions. Oddly enough, the Kamakura shogunate didn't share their sentiments and essentially gave them a slap on the hand. Interesting consequences for a bunch of "outcasts", but not if we're talking about a bunch of local nobles (which is what they essentially were).

I would suggest doing some real research for yourself before making blanket statements.

Laterz.


----------



## SageGhost83

heretic888 said:


> Based on the information you've told us, my guesses would be Donn Draeger, Andrew Adams, and Stephen Hayes.
> 
> The "ninja" per se didn't really exist until the end of the 15th century, right around the beginning of the Sengoku Jidai, and they were certainly held in high regard by both the Ashikaga and Tokugawa shogunates. That being said, they did have ancestral forerunners --- powerful families in Iga Province such as the Oe, Hattori, and Momochi who managed the "estates" (officially owned by the Todai-ji in Nara) --- who, from time to time, refused to pay taxes to the Todai-ji and sometimes attacked their officials.
> 
> Well, the Todai-ji certainly thought these people were "bandits" (akuto) and called for their summary executions. Oddly enough, the Kamakura shogunate didn't share their sentiments and essentially gave them a slap on the hand. Interesting consequences for a bunch of "outcasts", but not if we're talking about a bunch of local nobles (which is what they essentially were).
> 
> I would suggest doing some real research for yourself before making blanket statements.
> 
> Laterz.


 
Well, can't argue with that. There are so many different stories out there as far as this subject goes, I was stating the one that I was taught. Never claimed that it was either true or false, just throwing it out there for the sake of discussion. I can see a lot of people really take this issue quite seriously, and I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I won't be so bold as to make absolutist claims about something that I personally was not around to verify as I didn't live in the time of the ninja, and if I came off as sounding that way, that definitely was not my intention. Not claiming that what I said was the holy gospel, just reiterating what I was told and presenting it to you guys. I don't take the issue _that_ seriously, and I don't have a cult-esque obsession with it. Who really knows what the people of japan considered them to be? Unless you were there, you don't know for sure. I know that I don't know beyond the shadow of a doubt what they were considered to be, that is why I said take it with a grain of salt as I have taken it with a grain of salt. Lots of things are written into books, doesn't necessarily mean that it is all true, Christopher Columbus is an example that comes to mind.


----------



## SageGhost83

SageGhost83 said:


> Christopher Columbus is an example that comes to mind.


 
 and ashida kim, too.


----------



## Don Roley

SageGhost83 said:


> Well, can't argue with that. There are so many different stories out there as far as this subject goes, I was stating the one that I was taught. Never claimed that it was either true or false, just throwing it out there for the sake of discussion. I can see a lot of people really take this issue quite seriously, and I didn't mean to step on anyone's toes. I won't be so bold as to make absolutist claims about something that I personally was not around to verify as I didn't live in the time of the ninja, and if I came off as sounding that way, that definitely was not my intention. Not claiming that what I said was the holy gospel, just reiterating what I was told and presenting it to you guys. I don't take the issue _that_ seriously, and I don't have a cult-esque obsession with it. Who really knows what the people of japan considered them to be? Unless you were there, you don't know for sure. I know that I don't know beyond the shadow of a doubt what they were considered to be, that is why I said take it with a grain of salt as I have taken it with a grain of salt. Lots of things are written into books, doesn't necessarily mean that it is all true, Christopher Columbus is an example that comes to mind.



Great. So you are saying you don't really know what you are talking about. If that is so, why bother posting?

There are a lot of mistakes posted on the internet about ninjutsu history. How does your posting things that you really have no knowledge about help dispel any of the misconceptions? Asking a question is a good thing. Posting something as if it were fact and then refusing to take responsibility when it is proven false does not help.

Please understand that the only reason people like Heretic and I post on the interenet is to try to correct many of the many mistakes about ninjutsu that are commonly accepted and what you write _*does not help.*_

I don't want to get nasty. I can be if needed. Please help us contribute to spreading good information by being very, very sure of what you write before you put it out for others to maybe accept as fact.


----------



## SageGhost83

Don Roley said:


> Great. So you are saying you don't really know what you are talking about. If that is so, why bother posting?
> 
> There are a lot of mistakes posted on the internet about ninjutsu history. How does your posting things that you really have no knowledge about help dispel any of the misconceptions? Asking a question is a good thing. Posting something as if it were fact and then refusing to take responsibility when it is proven false does not help.
> 
> Please understand that the only reason people like Heretic and I post on the interenet is to try to correct many of the many mistakes about ninjutsu that are commonly accepted and what you write _*does not help.*_
> 
> I don't want to get nasty. I can be if needed. Please help us contribute to spreading good information by being very, very sure of what you write before you put it out for others to maybe accept as fact.


 
I didn't post anything as though it were fact, if you or anybody else read my posts carefully you would see that. He asked a question so I gave him an answer based on what I was taught. I plainly stated that in my posts. You are the one who is taking stuff that is written in an internet forum, of all places, as though it is fact. You don't want to get nasty, but you can if needed? So you are posturing behind a computer? Please, get out of here with that. As if I am supposed to be scared and bow down to you or something. What a joke. I see why ninjutsu has the reputation that it has, so I'll just leave you to your fanboy fantasy. "I don't want to get nasty", what a *****ing joke. Grow up and get a life.


----------



## Teppan

To my understanding in my 22 years of research with the ninja and samurai ;80% of ninja were trained in some form of samurai arts(hanbojutsu,kusarifundojutsu). The ninja were : farmers,doctors, witches,assassins,,mercenaries,crossdressers,spies,saboteours,special soldiers,illucionists,warrior monks,merchants,... and many more. Like the swords they carried : straight blade,curved blade, oval guard, short blade,...and so. To my understanding all ninja of the sengoku period were trained in 8 arts : kiaijutsu=victory,attack,defence,pasive shouting; Taijutsu=unarmed combat;shinobi kenjutsu=sword combat;soojutsu=spear combat;shakenjutsu=throwing objects;go-ton-po=escaping by using nature;cultural arts and practical education of the day. During the 1100's some ryu develop their own secret tool (shuko,shoge,...) and mountain farmers who could not carrie a sword develop tactics of combat using staff and canes. Sometimes to protect themselves their families and their religious belives. To my understanding this techniques and tactics were handed down from one generation to the next oraly. When japan is in turmoil in the period call the sengoku jidai many farmers sons enlisted in armies. In WW I  samething happened when the britich needed snipers and did'nt have a sniper program. They enlisted hunters from ireland using a suit call a guiley suit to "hunt down german officers" The sniper was born.These hunters hunted a bird call a snipe. Just a bird that was name a snipe in ireland gave the name to the soldiers. 
   The warriors that came from iga and koga had already a reputation to be very stealthy. Those the term shinobi no mono or iga no mono was born. Now to the opposing side they were ofcourse assassins. Same to the germans of WW I the snipers were assassins. Ofcourse after there's no more war some soldiers returned home perfecting their techniques but others become mercenaries,assassins,bodyguards,...and so. To me the ninja of old is a complex caracter. Theres a lot of material in both the iga museum and the koga museum. During the 1800's the word ninja was not around yet but shinobiya and assassin were sinonimous words. Also sometimes refered to men with special endurance skills from the mountains of iga and koga. Some say that the uesugi and negoro ryus are still alive today. In china,egipt,middle east,india,... anyone with those skills was an assassin. If one is cought escaping silently from a captive place; who might not think that one is entering instead of escaping to do some evil deed. And another thing; people are naturally afraid of the night or someone with a mask is not asociated to be doing something good.Any more ideas are welcome...........................................Thanks...


----------



## Don Roley

SageGhost83 said:


> I didn't post anything as though it were fact,



Yes, you did speculate and it could have been taken as fact. And of course, much of what you wrote was flat out wrong. If you don't know something, it is best that you leave things to those that do know. You think the ninja were outcasts, untouchables. You are wrong. We try to deal with facts whenever we can. There are a lot of people like yourself that say that the are trying to help, but will not take responsibilty if they spread bad information because they lack knowledge. My advice is to be very, very certain about something before you even try to speculate about it on the internet. If it is not something you want to take responsibility for, then it is not something that should be posted on the internet IMO.

And that goes for everyone. I ranted about this in the rant thread already.


----------



## Don Roley

Teppan said:


> To my understanding in my 22 years of research with the ninja and samurai ;80% of ninja were trained in some form of samurai arts(hanbojutsu,kusarifundojutsu).



80%? Give a source aside from a comment about 22 years of research.




Teppan said:


> The ninja were : farmers,doctors, witches,assassins,,mercenaries,crossdressers,spies,saboteours,special soldiers,illucionists,warrior monks,merchants,... and many more.



Wrong. They were some of those, not others. For one, they did not follow wicca.




Teppan said:


> Like the swords they carried : straight blade,curved blade, oval guard, short blade,...and so.



Wrong.



Teppan said:


> To my understanding all ninja of the sengoku period were trained in 8 arts : kiaijutsu=victory,attack,defence,pasive shouting; Taijutsu=unarmed combat;shinobi kenjutsu=sword combat;soojutsu=spear combat;shakenjutsu=throwing objects;go-ton-po=escaping by using nature;cultural arts and practical education of the day.



Wrong. You have mistaken the Ninja no Hachimon with something else.



Teppan said:


> During the 1100's some ryu develop their own secret tool (shuko,shoge,...) and mountain farmers who could not carrie a sword develop tactics of combat using staff and canes.



Wrong.



Teppan said:


> Sometimes to protect themselves their families and their religious belives.



Wrong.



Teppan said:


> To my understanding this techniques and tactics were handed down from one generation to the next oraly. When japan is in turmoil in the period call the sengoku jidai many farmers sons enlisted in armies.



One point for you.




Teppan said:


> In WW I  samething happened when the britich needed snipers and did'nt have a sniper program. They enlisted hunters from ireland using a suit call a guiley suit to "hunt down german officers" The sniper was born.These hunters hunted a bird call a snipe. Just a bird that was name a snipe in ireland gave the name to the soldiers.



Beware of trying to use anologies if you do not understand both subjects very, very well.



Teppan said:


> The warriors that came from iga and koga had already a reputation to be very stealthy. Those the term shinobi no mono or iga no mono was born. Now to the opposing side they were ofcourse assassins. Same to the germans of WW I the snipers were assassins. Ofcourse after there's no more war some soldiers returned home perfecting their techniques but others become mercenaries,assassins,bodyguards,...and so.



What did I say about anologies? I really don't know how to deal with all your flawed knowledge.





Teppan said:


> To me the ninja of old is a complex caracter. Theres a lot of material in both the iga museum and the koga museum. During the 1800's the word ninja was not around yet but shinobiya and assassin were sinonimous words.



Wrong.



Teppan said:


> Also sometimes refered to men with special endurance skills from the mountains of iga and koga. Some say that the uesugi and negoro ryus are still alive today.



Wrong. Well, if some drunk in an alley spouts off about how the Uesugi ryu is still alive, then you are technically correct in saying that _some_ say.... But serious folks do not.



Teppan said:


> In china,egipt,middle east,india,... anyone with those skills was an assassin. If one is cought escaping silently from a captive place; who might not think that one is entering instead of escaping to do some evil deed. And another thing; people are naturally afraid of the night or someone with a mask is not asociated to be doing something good.Any more ideas are welcome...........................................Thanks...



Sigh...... Looks like you should have spent 22 years doing something else.


----------



## Bigshadow

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-David Russ
-MT Moderator-



*


----------



## Teppan

Well, well if it isn't mr. Roley. Can seem to forget your warm welcome to me in this forum. When you say "Wrong" "Wrong" "Wrong" don't say wrong just express your historical notes. You are in Japan, are you japanese? Noone whants everybody to know of their culture more than they do. Not wicca. But if you live in Japan the ninja were said to be "Wizards". In Hatsumis book " Ninjutsu: History and tradition; You can read the hachimon it's there unless you are one of those that say it was Mr. Hayes who made that book. You read a book about medicine and can do any practice from that! Well my dad when he was sane he read the four volumes of automechanics from chilton without going to any class and he did'nt play at been a mechanic. He had a shop.In later years he was verry rich just by reading those books. In his shop there were many pictures of his uncle bayoneted to a tree in the philipines. Since then i started reading about the japanese battle tactics from WWII. His other uncles were gundown quikly in the first waves that landed in normandy france. So you least of all tell me that i wasted 22 years of my life. MR. roley he who knows everything ninja related. If we are a comunity in the bujinkan let's help eachother. When ever you say "Wrong" Eliminate that word and write your own knowledge please. If not read and READ some more. Read stephen turnbull books about the ninja and the samurai. Are you truly studying with Soke Hatsumi? Bud Malmstrong once said "there are many people that go to japan but don't get the message; yet there are those who never been to japan and have gotten the messege." Maybe SageGhost83 was right when he said : grow up and get a life. You say flawed knowledge. What you know about world history Mr. Roley? There could be a Ninjutsu ryu in japan that maybe unheard of. Ninja families where secret societies like the skulls, freemasons , and so... So someone could be training in the authentic Koga ryu and you would'nt know it. The Koga ryu's ichimonji-no-kamae it's basically the same for the koto ryu with the exeption of the front hand been bended at 90degrees. So it could be called a jumonji-ichimonji-no-kamae. If you are in japan this day go to the koga museum and tell them you are a koga expert and that they are wrong. When my father was in the military we travel to many places when in japan in the 1980's. " wakarimasen-ka"... just don't tell me " Watashi wa sensei hodo eigo ga joozu ja arimasen" " Wakarikana?  Thanks ...


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## tshadowchaser

2nd warning 
*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-*


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Teppan said:


> Noone whants everybody to know of their culture more than they do.


 
I kind of doubt that.



Teppan said:


> But if you live in Japan the ninja were said to be "Wizards".


 
Heck, back then you were a wizard if you knew how to swim.



Teppan said:


> In Hatsumis book " Ninjutsu: History and tradition; You can read the hachimon it's there unless you are one of those that say it was Mr. Hayes who made that book.


 
I suppose you have evidence to the contrary?



Teppan said:


> If we are a comunity in the bujinkan let's help eachother.


 
I honestly used to believe in that too. But all you can do is try your best to surround yourself with people who aren't idiots (i.e. those who have trained correctly - that's what it all boils down to).



Teppan said:


> Ninja families where secret societies like the skulls, freemasons , and so...


 
Nope.


----------



## heretic888

Teppan said:


> Not wicca. But if you live in Japan the ninja were said to be "Wizards".


 
In anthropology, "witch" and "wizard" (or "sorcerer") are very distinct and very different terms. Please don't conflate the two.



Teppan said:


> In Hatsumis book " Ninjutsu: History and tradition; You can read the hachimon it's there unless you are one of those that say it was Mr. Hayes who made that book.



_History and Tradition_ is basically bits and pieces of Hatsumi's writings (poorly translated by Hayes) interspersed with Hayes' own writings. This results in some amusing contradictions in the text, such as "Hatsumi" saying the ninja used a straight-edged sword with a square hilt and then the next page showing several photos of him using a curve-edged sword with an oval hilt (the only straight-edged ninja sword in that book is used by Hayes). 

Additionally, the "ninja no hachimon" is never mentioned in _History and Tradition_. I think you have your information seriously confused here.



Teppan said:


> So you least of all tell me that i wasted 22 years of my life.



Where exactly did Don say that?



Teppan said:


> If not read and READ some more. Read stephen turnbull books about the ninja and the samurai.



Personally, I wouldn't recommend Turnbull's "ninja" books except for the handful of quotations from period accounts (such as the _Nochi Kagami_). Souryi's book on medieval Japanese social structures is a much better exposition, in my opinion, on the Iga communities.




Teppan said:


> You say flawed knowledge. What you know about world history Mr. Roley?



Don's knowledge of "world history" is irrelevant to the discussion.



Teppan said:


> There could be a Ninjutsu ryu in japan that maybe unheard of.



Unheard of in Japan but talked about on the Internet, eh??

You _do_ realize what that sounds like, don't you??



Teppan said:


> Ninja families where secret societies like the skulls, freemasons , and so...



They were nothing of the sort.

Pierre Souryi's _The World Turned Upside Down: Medieval Japanese Society_ quotes directly from a constitution ratified by the Iga commune around 1560. One of the articles of this constitution describes how the samurai in Iga took an oath and both the oath and the names of the samurai were posted in temples throughout the province.

It is a huge leap of the imagination to suppose these people were a "secret society". Even the _Nochi Kagami_, an annal of the Ashikaga shogunate, mentions how a samurai from a particular family in Iga earned great merit as a "ninja" in front of the shogun's army and that, since that time, the "men of Iga" had continued to held considerable merit with their names "known throughout the land".



Teppan said:


> So someone could be training in the authentic Koga ryu and you would'nt know it. The Koga ryu's ichimonji-no-kamae it's basically the same for the koto ryu with the exeption of the front hand been bended at 90degrees. So it could be called a jumonji-ichimonji-no-kamae.



What is your source for this information??

Laterz.


----------



## Teppan

Heck, back then you were a wizard if you knew how to swim.



So i supose that a tanegashima was a wisard or warlock magic stick. And people saw it as a magic stick that sounded like thunder and voila! a flying bird went down. Well i see that our backgrounds are verry diferent. So in the ashikaga shogunate's period in history the word ninja already existed. "People who aren't idiot's" please don't insult me. One of many tora no maki in the museum of koga. If those books are not recomended then what should be or is a true sourse of authentic ninja knowledge. You can see for youre selves straight ninja swords in those museum displays. God... If  a warrior needed a sword right away anything would do. God ... Well to me mr. Hayes has been a great influence in my knowledge. Great experiences and many happiness from his teachings.And no i'm not a heretic i have a strong believe in God.Unheard in japan and talked in the internet? Did i said something like there's this ninjutsu ryu or some other invented name; Like the Takagure dojo of haru or the makato clan of kinjo? Experience tells me that when someone is against someone his friends sudenly rise up against the up coming threat. Such behavior is expected. If i was wrong i apologise but if not you can all use you're psychology on me. Hmmm reminds me of the art of war. Don't tell me that that ancient book is also not to be read. So then what is a ninja acording to you?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Teppan said:


> "People who aren't idiot's" please don't insult me.


 
I don't know whether or not you've practiced correctly. And I'm NOT going to say "if the shoe fits".


----------



## heretic888

Teppan said:


> So i supose that a tanegashima was a wisard or warlock magic stick. And people saw it as a magic stick that sounded like thunder and voila! a flying bird went down.


 
Not at all. Flintlock rifles were commonplace during the Sengoku Jidai, even among the ashigaru.




Teppan said:


> So in the ashikaga shogunate's period in history the word ninja already existed.



The actual term was _shinobi-no-mono_, but yes.

However, my point wasn't that this term was in existence by the Muromachi Jidai (even though it was), but that the people we are calling "ninja" were well known and admired even among the Ashikaga shogunate. Their names were also public knowledge in Iga. 

Put simply, to maintain they were some kind of "secret society" is to engage in historical revisionism.



Teppan said:


> One of many tora no maki in the museum of koga.



I assume this is in answer to my last question as to your source.

Unfortunately, without the name of the actual document, this tells us basically nothing. 



Teppan said:


> You can see for youre selves straight ninja swords in those museum displays.



The swords in question are manufactured replicas, not authentic antiques.



Teppan said:


> God... If a warrior needed a sword right away anything would do.



Sure, but why would a bunch of moderately well-to-do samurai families simply not use katana? 



Teppan said:


> God ... Well to me mr. Hayes has been a great influence in my knowledge. Great experiences and many happiness from his teachings.



That actually explains quite a lot. Most of Hayes' information on Japanese history is fundamentally flawed.



Teppan said:


> And no i'm not a heretic i have a strong believe in God.



What does that have to do with anything?? 



Teppan said:


> Experience tells me that when someone is against someone his friends sudenly rise up against the up coming threat. Such behavior is expected. If i was wrong i apologise but if not you can all use you're psychology on me. Hmmm reminds me of the art of war. Don't tell me that that ancient book is also not to be read.



Umm...... wow. 



Teppan said:


> So then what is a ninja acording to you?



A word that means different things to different people, and nothing to me personally.

Laterz.


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## Teppan

Nimravus said:


> I don't know whether or not you've practiced correctly. And I'm NOT going to say "if the shoe fits".


 

Well bottom line is that my first training lessons in 1988 were in togakure ryu. From 1988 till 1991. I was train in intonjutsu. true fact is that today if hatsumi is not teaching togakure,kumogakure or gyokkoshin one can not say that is training in ninjutsu; simply some form of budo. Actually just the other day i learned to tie a belt. The training was always with a black t-shirt with a nin simbol and a black karate pant. There was few wooded or paded weapons. We trained sometimes with sharp knives and most training sesions were outdoors. So what is a correct practice. Yes there was a lot of taijutsu. Always went to bed in pain and sometimes i slept in class when in college. Probably i didn't train correctly and wasted four years of what i thought to be athenthic ninjutsu training in the togakure ryu. NO THERE WERE NO FLINTLOCKS ; All were MATCHLOCK rifles till 1867. One says something then the other says something else. Make up your minds. The TANEGASHIMA was not a FLINTLOCK but a MATCHLOCK rifle. And yes you could block a katana sword or gunto with an M-1 rifle. The ashigaru sometimes used a big umbrella during battles under the rain; the water made it imposible to keep the match lighted. Well heretic means someone who believes in ? Don't tell me that they also had the wheellock too. I tought that you had some background in japanese history. Later ...


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## Cryozombie

Teppan said:


> So i supose that a tanegashima was a wisard or warlock magic stick. And people saw it as a magic stick that sounded like thunder and voila! a flying bird went down. Well i see that our backgrounds are verry diferent. So in the ashikaga shogunate's period in history the word ninja already existed. "People who aren't idiot's" please don't insult me. One of many tora no maki in the museum of koga. If those books are not recomended then what should be or is a true sourse of authentic ninja knowledge. You can see for youre selves straight ninja swords in those museum displays. God... If  a warrior needed a sword right away anything would do. God ... Well to me mr. Hayes has been a great influence in my knowledge. Great experiences and many happiness from his teachings.And no i'm not a heretic i have a strong believe in God.Unheard in japan and talked in the internet? Did i said something like there's this ninjutsu ryu or some other invented name; Like the Takagure dojo of haru or the makato clan of kinjo? Experience tells me that when someone is against someone his friends sudenly rise up against the up coming threat. Such behavior is expected. If i was wrong i apologise but if not you can all use you're psychology on me. Hmmm reminds me of the art of war. Don't tell me that that ancient book is also not to be read. So then what is a ninja acording to you?



???


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## Don Roley

Teppan said:


> When ever you say "Wrong" Eliminate that word and write your own knowledge please. If not read and READ some more.



Boy, you really seem to think I owe you something. Guess what, you are wrong again.

Let me be clear, I think I have already done you a great service. The first part of a the knowledge cycle is conscious incompetence. We know that we do not know. That is why you won't find me in an airline cockpit. The danger is when we think we know, but do not. You thought you knew, I told you that you did not, now you are free to make better use of your time.

The thing is, for every incorrect sentence you write it would probably take about a paragraph to explain why you are wrong and spell out the truth in little words that you could understand. And considering the long, rather strange, posts that you make that would take more time than I am willing to put in. Especially since you do not seem to be the most eager to admit your error or lack of knowledge and we would get into a debate instead of you just accepting the facts and learning from them. I feel like I am dealing with Bruce Calkins again.

Here is an example of what I am talking about from my piece on the Koga ryu.



> A young Fujita had sought adventure by running away and joining some Yamabushi on their pilgrimage. This may sound strange, but the Yamabushi preached a religion where they would exercise and perform religious austerities in holy places. This allowed them to store up on holy energy that they would convey onto others as they walked on their pilgrimages in exchange for donations. An indispensable part of their service was a display of their holy powers to those who were considering giving donations. Like tent side revivalist meetings these miracles tended to be flashy and impressive. Walking on hot coals, running up ladders made of swords and sticking oneself with many needles were among the many devices used by some of the practitioners. Also like some of the revivalist meetings in America, some or the practitioners were better at being flashy than holy. But it was a great show. In short, for a young Japanese boy at the time it was the closest equivalent to running away to join the circus.



Now, out of all that the only thing you will find in Fujita's biography or autobiography is the reference to him running off to be with the Yamabushi. All the rest were from other sources. The typical, educated Japanese would already know this type of thing. Since the target audience was well educated Japanese, the biography or Fujita felt no more need to mention all the rest of the stuff than I would feel in telling  who won the battle at the Alamo.

To understand a lot of ninjutsu history, you can't go straight to the ninjutsu stuff. You have to understand all the other stuff that the sources in Japanese are all built on and consider to be common knowledge. You might note that  the source Heretic888 quoted at you was not a ninjutsu source per se. But it is obvious he knows his stuff far better than you ever will. The truth is sometimes more difficult to explain than a something unburdoned by the need to stick to facts. Hence it takes more of my time to write a correction than it would be for you to write more incorrect knowledge. Our problem is solved if you merely sit, listen and learn from all the people here who know more than you. We are glad to answer questions for the most part, but first you have to prove that you want to learn instead of impress us.

So if you want to know more about the ninja and their history, you need to do better research and not demand people lay things out on a sliver platter for you. If you want to know the reality of the ninja, wait a while and maybe I will come out with that book I keep talking about. But as things stand, I want to stop the spread of bad information like yours and my purpose is not to make easily availible information for folks like Sojobow and yourself.


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## Don Roley

Teppan said:


> Well bottom line is that my first training lessons in 1988 were in togakure ryu. From 1988 till 1991. I was train in intonjutsu. true fact is that today if hatsumi is not teaching togakure,kumogakure or gyokkoshin one can not say that is training in ninjutsu; simply some form of budo. Actually just the other day i learned to tie a belt. The training was always with a black t-shirt with a nin simbol and a black karate pant. There was few wooded or paded weapons. We trained sometimes with sharp knives and most training sesions were outdoors. So what is a correct practice. Yes there was a lot of taijutsu. Always went to bed in pain and sometimes i slept in class when in college.



Please try to get your stories straight.

In this thread you state all of the following.



> Hi ,i'm a beginner. Can anybody tell me the difference betwen Ninjutsu and Ninjitsu?





> Thanks. *I'm just starting in the martial arts.* I'm just learning how to tie the belt, bowing, warm-ups, basic postures, rolls, ect...





> I started this i guess like many. By Mr. Hayes books on my own since where i live ninjutsu it's very ilegall. I wrote to Mr. Hayes in 1997 and then he was sending me this newsletter called the Musubi till 1999.



That entire thread is of great interest. Do you realize you started off trying to say you were training under a fifth dan, and then swotched your story to a second dan? And now you are trying to say you were training way back in 1988.

Yeah, I am glad you mentioned our past encounter. I had forgotten about you and did a search of your past posts. It is real interesting that you have tried to make it sound like you know something about the ancient texts of ninjutsu in the Koga museum when in this thread you don't even know what Sakki, the Bansenshukai or the Ninpiden is.


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## Teppan

When i started posting i feelt very impress by all the knowledge that was written in here. When someone writes a question instead of answering some of you guys just wait and wait till someone else writes and idea; and instead of correcting it you just go ahead pretend you guys know everything and blam! this that the other. Hey i just wrote my answer to the guy that started this threat : What is a ninja? Sudenly you wrote all that; Hey you started this. How you think that i was going to react. Of course i've always known what the bansenshukai was. Wanted to make sure who knew what? can't find that of 5th dan. His instructor was a 5th dan not him. Why confuse. In all of youre training what have you learned from the wisdom of the toda family? Or O'sensei Takamatsu's  Kofuku no Shiori... Yeah way back in the 1980's.Well you don't seem to like me been here. Once you said post in the spanish forums or latin forums. i'm just not up to it today. You said what heretic888 quoted at me was not a ninjutsu sourse per se.(yeah he is youre friend) Yeah he knows his stuff ;Someone who reads the wicca?The tanegashima been a flintlock! Ashigaru - tanegashima- tanegashima  - ashigaru... Is there a direct reference by me to say ikusa shinobi. that comes from japanese military history. And no i don't think ill ever learn anything from you or your book what so ever. i'm no gonna bother with you anymore, it is pointles; for what ever i write there's a direct critic. after viewing the past posts you really think i was gona exchange ideas with someone who has an answer to me intead of the answering the original post : What is a ninja? I expresed in my words and experinces what to me was a ninja. Why you didn't do the same? No mr.roley is just waiting for the answers. Why me? Man just drop it. I'll stop waisting my time with you and youre friends if that is what you want.  take care people...


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## Don Roley

Teppan said:


> When i started posting i feelt very impress by all the knowledge that was written in here. When someone writes a question instead of answering some of you guys just wait and wait till someone else writes and idea; and instead of correcting it you just go ahead pretend you guys know everything and blam! this that the other. Hey i just wrote my answer to the guy that started this threat : What is a ninja? Sudenly you wrote all that; Hey you started this. How you think that i was going to react. Of course i've always known what the bansenshukai was. Wanted to make sure who knew what? can't find that of 5th dan. His instructor was a 5th dan not him. Why confuse. In all of youre training what have you learned from the wisdom of the toda family? Or O'sensei Takamatsu's  Kofuku no Shiori... Yeah way back in the 1980's.Well you don't seem to like me been here. Once you said post in the spanish forums or latin forums. i'm just not up to it today. You said what heretic888 quoted at me was not a ninjutsu sourse per se.(yeah he is youre friend) Yeah he knows his stuff ;Someone who reads the wicca?The tanegashima been a flintlock! Ashigaru - tanegashima- tanegashima  - ashigaru... Is there a direct reference by me to say ikusa shinobi. that comes from japanese military history. And no i don't think ill ever learn anything from you or your book what so ever. i'm no gonna bother with you anymore, it is pointles; for what ever i write there's a direct critic. after viewing the past posts you really think i was gona exchange ideas with someone who has an answer to me intead of the answering the original post : What is a ninja? I expresed in my words and experinces what to me was a ninja. Why you didn't do the same? No mr.roley is just waiting for the answers. Why me? Man just drop it. I'll stop waisting my time with you and youre friends if that is what you want.  take care people...



Uh, yeah..... :uhyeah:


----------



## Teppan

........................


1980's = Togakure ryu ninjutsu(taijutsu,nin-gu,inton and seishin...)

1990's = Bujinkan ninjutsu(togakure ryu ninjutsu,gyokushin ryu ninjutsu, kumogakure ryu ninjutsu)

2000's = Bujinkan budo taijutsu(gyokko ryu koshijutsu,kuki shinden ryu happo hikenjutsu,shinden fudo ryu dakentaijutsu, koto ryu koppojutsu, gikan ryu koppo taijutsu and takagi yoshin ryu jutaijutsu)

...Uh, yeah:uhyeah:


----------



## Teppan

Don Roley said:


> Please try to get your stories straight.
> 
> In this thread you state all of the following.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That entire thread is of great interest. Do you realize you started off trying to say you were training under a fifth dan, and then swotched your story to a second dan? And now you are trying to say you were training way back in 1988.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course i started in the begining of the 1980's with Mr. Hayes books. In there is the bansenchukai explained volume by volume. I repeated that :just the other day i learned to tie a belt that we trained with black t-shirts and black karate pants that where i lived ninpo is very illegal. Ofcourse i'm a biginner in this budo taijutsu art. I've never lied; simply didn't tell other facts that noone asked me. Cause hatsumi himself said: bujinkan budo taijutsu is not ninjutsu.Mr. hayes also said to-shin-do is not ninjutsu but a modern application. Please refer to hatsumis books : "Secrets of the samurai" and "The way of the ninja" same author different views. Now i think that  is why some of you don't like me posting, cause some of you think that budo taijutsu is ninjutsu. When Mr. hayes went to japan and came back he started teaching what he learned in japan and he asked specificaly to learn togakure ryu. Ofcourse when he went back hatsumi was teaching something else and people thought that he was incorrect. I was a member of the nine gates institute and yes i received in the mail a news letter called the "Musubi" wich means knot. The fact is that mr.hayes went to japan 40 years ago and many don't like that either. As i said before if you are not training in togakure ryu, kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu you are not training in ninjutsu. So why post in a ninjutsu friendly discussion forum when youre backgrounds are in bujutsu or budo...:samurai:  :ninja: just look at the cartoons are they the same. you guys :deadhorse . And thanks for the computer virus that one of you sended me...................................LATER...................:ticked:


----------



## bydand

Teppan said:


> ........................
> 
> 
> 1980's = Togakure ryu ninjutsu(taijutsu,nin-gu,inton and seishin...)
> 
> 1990's = Bujinkan ninjutsu(togakure ryu ninjutsu,gyokushin ryu ninjutsu, kumogakure ryu ninjutsu)
> 
> 2000's = Bujinkan budo taijutsu(gyokko ryu koshijutsu,kuki shinden ryu happo hikenjutsu,shinden fudo ryu dakentaijutsu, koto ryu koppojutsu, gikan ryu koppo taijutsu and takagi yoshin ryu jutaijutsu)
> 
> ...Uh, yeah:uhyeah:



Just looked up a couple of older books I had bought years ago, and while printed in late 80"s lists the ones you have showing up in the 2000's. The only difference I see is my list doesn't have  Kuki... and you have listed "gikan ryu koppo taijutsu"  while mine is "gikan ryu koppojutsu"  

Could just be different way of saying the same thing because I do not understand the Japanese language.


----------



## Teppan

bydand said:


> Just looked up a couple of older books I had bought years ago, and while printed in late 80"s lists the ones you have showing up in the 2000's. The only difference I see is my list doesn't have Kuki... and you have listed "gikan ryu koppo taijutsu" while mine is "gikan ryu koppojutsu"
> 
> Could just be different way of saying the same thing because I do not understand the Japanese language.


 






Yes i think it's the same. The japanese caracters for both are the same. When you go to  www.bujinkan.com you'll notice the caracter for tai and for jutsu. Right there in hatsumi's picture.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Teppan you have to understand that Don is one of the few people who have researched the history of the Bujinkan.  Another such individual would be Paul Richardson.  There are more but not many of them are as vocal as Don or Paul.  You have stated that you started learning from Hayes books and are just now learning from an instructor.  Understand that the Japanese language and communication skills is complex for many of us to understand.  Therefore when Stephen Hayes wrote his books he was interpreting what he thought was correct.  Soke's art is highly misunderstood in many regards because of this.  Your perceptions based on your early readings are not what the mainstream Bujinkan follows as based on the teaching's of Soke.  We have many, many people who go regularly to Japan now and quite a few who actually live there. (many people on this board have been to Japan to train at the Hombu dojo) These individuals (those that live in Japan and go regularly) have been able to open up the truth about Budo Taijutsu.  Individual's like Shihan Mark Lithgow, Shihan Bill Masse, Shihan Mike Pierce, Shihan Phil Legare, Sensei Mark O'Brien, Sensei *Don Roley* and *many more* have been able to pass on the true teachings.  I would, like you try and learn more than preach.  In this way we can become more knowledgeable and better practitioners of Budo Taijutsu.


----------



## Don Roley

Teppan said:


> Of course i started in the begining of the 1980's with Mr. Hayes books. In there is the bansenchukai explained volume by volume. I repeated that :just the other day i learned to tie a belt that we trained with black t-shirts and black karate pants that where i lived ninpo is very illegal. Ofcourse i'm a biginner in this budo taijutsu art. I've never lied; simply didn't tell other facts that noone asked me. Cause hatsumi himself said: bujinkan budo taijutsu is not ninjutsu.Mr. hayes also said to-shin-do is not ninjutsu but a modern application. Please refer to hatsumis books : "Secrets of the samurai" and "The way of the ninja" same author different views. Now i think that  is why some of you don't like me posting, cause some of you think that budo taijutsu is ninjutsu. When Mr. hayes went to japan and came back he started teaching what he learned in japan and he asked specificaly to learn togakure ryu. Ofcourse when he went back hatsumi was teaching something else and people thought that he was incorrect. I was a member of the nine gates institute and yes i received in the mail a news letter called the "Musubi" wich means knot. The fact is that mr.hayes went to japan 40 years ago and many don't like that either. As i said before if you are not training in togakure ryu, kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu you are not training in ninjutsu. So why post in a ninjutsu friendly discussion forum when youre backgrounds are in bujutsu or budo...:samurai:  :ninja: just look at the cartoons are they the same. you guys :deadhorse . And thanks for the computer virus that one of you sended me...................................LATER...................:ticked:



You know, there are so many inaccuracies in the above I do not know where to start in correcting them. So let us just stick with the facts.

You can't read Japanese and only about six months ago you were asking if Ron Duncan and the Koga ryu were legit and asking how to tie a belt. Hence, all your efforts have not been as well spent as someone who knows what they are doing.

You were not a student until last year. Grabbing some book that says "ninjutsu" on the cover and playing with the stuff about hiding is not practicing ninjutsu. It is the live action version of Dungeons and Dragons.


If you abandon all your desires to be taken as anything more than a rank begginer, then you stand a chance of learning something here. But based on past experiences, I would not bet on you being able to just admit you are wrong and learn from your mistakes. I expect more arguing from you. And as much as I dislike it, I will have to point out just how wrong you are so that others are not led astray by what you write.


----------



## Kreth

Teppan said:


> Of course i started in the begining of the 1980's with Mr. Hayes books.


and 


> As i said before if you are not training in togakure ryu, kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu you are not training in ninjutsu. So why post in a ninjutsu friendly discussion forum when youre backgrounds are in bujutsu or budo...


It does seem rather strange that someone who was training in ninjutsu 20-odd years ago would have made this post less than a year ago. :idunno:


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## nighthawk_9

Hello to everyone. My name is John Rodriguez. I'm 47 years old and a great friend of joseph who is 38. (teppan) I instructed 8 or 10 guys back there in Puerto Rico by 1987 or 1988. I live in New Jersey i was one of those guys that whent to all of the festivals and work shops in Ohio back in the 80's. I have a nice house down there in Puerto Rico. On summers i went down there it's a very nice place. Teppan was one of the most stuborn students that i had down there yet one of the most skilled. I usually don't write in the net. The reason that i'm writing to you people is that the computer that joseph used was a computer from a local library. I think it was very disrespectful of someone sending him a virus via his e-mail. The federal baureau of investigation is looking in to it as we speak. I told Joseph to let it go so he won't be posting in here anymore. This is my first, only and last time i will write in here. Thanks for the brief moment.


----------



## bydand

What a load.


----------



## saru1968

bydand said:


> What a load.


 

of ?


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## shesulsa

nighthawk_9 said:


> Hello to everyone. My name is John Rodriguez. I'm 47 years old and a great friend of joseph who is 38. (teppan) I instructed 8 or 10 guys back there in Puerto Rico by 1987 or 1988. I live in New Jersey i was one of those guys that whent to all of the festivals and work shops in Ohio back in the 80's. I have a nice house down there in Puerto Rico. On summers i went down there it's a very nice place. Teppan was one of the most stuborn students that i had down there yet one of the most skilled. I usually don't write in the net. The reason that i'm writing to you people is that the computer that joseph used was a computer from a local library. I think it was very disrespectful of someone sending him a virus via his e-mail. The federal baureau of investigation is looking in to it as we speak. I told Joseph to let it go so he won't be posting in here anymore. This is my first, only and last time i will write in here. Thanks for the brief moment.


First of all, your IP address traces to Puerto Rico meaning you lied about your location in your registration profile.

Second, this site does not cause viruses on computers - this is slanderous and we don't appreciate it.  If you don't like this site, then close your account and leave, but do not accuse MartialTalk of spreading viruses.  Any further accusations can be discussed with Bob Hubbard directly.


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## Don Roley

shesulsa said:


> First of all, your IP address traces to Puerto Rico meaning you lied about your location in your registration profile.



When will they learn? When person "A" is getting slamed because of silly statements and the like and screen name "B" shows up to defend him, it sets off all sorts of alarms.

And I am sure  that "Teppan" will try to say that "John" was merely visiting his home in Puerto Rico when he posted, but gave NJ because that is where he lives most of the time.

But as someone who lives in Japan and gets back to America every few years, I can tell you that where ever I am is where my orientation is. So when "John" tried saying, 



> I instructed 8 or 10 guys *back there* in Puerto Rico



and



> I have a nice house *down there* in Puerto Rico.



it is clear that he was trying to get us  to think he was not in Puerto Rico.

Not to mention that "John's" account contradicts much of what Teppan used to try to get us to believe. That is the problem with lying, you have to work to keep your story straight. And the guys that do not have the brains to impress others with honest labor are not the ones with enough grey matter to stick to a consistant story.

On one hand, you really have to pity guys like this. They have to lead pretty pathetic lives if impressing a lot of people on an internet forum with their posturing has any sort of attraction. But on the other, the damage they do to the information base kind of makes it hard to have pity on them.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

It is interesting what lengths losers will go to to make themselves feel like big people. 6 accounts found, banned. Local FBI office called. Much laughter on the part of the agents I spoke with. But, please contact them. One of the agents still owes me coffee from our last meeting. 

As to viruses, read this:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42063
Was posted last time some loser accused this site of spreading them. There is no proof, period. 

Anyway, back to talk about guys in masks, smoke bombs and sneaking around in black PJs while kicking alot of ***.


----------



## Don Roley

Bob Hubbard said:


> It is interesting what lengths losers will go to to make themselves feel like big people. 6 accounts found, banned.



6?

Man, there are some big losers out there.  

Maybe you can just cut off all the posts in this thread by the banned accounts and those responding to them and move it to the horror story section. I would love to hear more, but don't want a thread hijacked by these losers.


----------



## thardey

So I am looking at this from an extremely western perspective. 

The only martial arts I do are western-based. However, some recent situations have made me curious about far-eastern culture and thinking, and something about this discussion seems like a place to understand the philosophy. I guess it's the samurai/shinobi comparison - how some people over-simplify it by saying they were opposites, while others say that shinobi/ninja were a special branch within the saumurai. I guess my western mindset has a hard time with separating the "class/caste" of samurai from the "job" of soldier. I also have a hard time reconciling the concept of "Bushido" with the purported methods of the "ninja".

So, I think that my understanding of this culture is hindered until I can start from the right mindset. So, if I can summarize what I have learned from this forum, with all respect, could you help straighten out some of the "non-eastern" way of thinking? 

So, here's my ignorant speculation, please help me figure this out.

First, "shinobi" seems to be the most respectful term for this group of people. Is it disrespectful to use the term "ninja"?

Second, in competitive situations, I have found the value of first allowing people to underestimate me (football, sparring, debating, etc), until they think that I am not a threat to them. (Sometimes allowing them to look down on me for months.) Then, when I surprise them with some skill or technique that they didn't think I was capable of, they start wondering what else I can do. Before I know it, they imagine that I have almost supernatural ability, because their own imagination runs amok. People have been told on more than one occasion that I can "Do anything". Which of course I can't. But I don't tell my competitors that. 

It seems that the public vew of shinobi is like that. Either people dismiss them as nothing more than theives and assassins, or they think they can jump over 10ft walls. 
Is it likely that the shinobi realized the value of underestimation that I have, and purposely set out to spread different stories to mess with their enemies minds, while making their skill highly coveted by their allies? 

Wouldn't it be easy to tell people that "no, I'm not anything special -- I'm just a merchant" and then let someone see you do a magic trick and dissappear. They will spread your reputation faster than you ever could. 

-But again, I don't know if that kind of thinking even has a place in the eastern mindset.- I'm from the northwest states, and that kind of thinking is relatively cultural. I went to southern Cal, for college, and they had no idea what I was doing. (BTW, it worked really well there.)

Third, if the shinobi were trying to gather information, it would make sense to appear harmless -- a farmer, a merchant, a gardener, a musician, etc. so that people will keep their guard down and share information freeley. If that's the case, a working-class person wouldn't carry either a katana or anything distincly "ninja", but a general, working class waikizashi, right? (That's assuming that the working class carried waikizashi.)

Then, if I were a shinobi, I would dress as a merchant, (even if I was a samurai) drink some saki at the local pub, and sit around and tell legends about these crazy ninja-types, while gathering information. Thus the legend will be planted, watered and nurtured, and my mission would be accomplished.

I don't know, does it make sense? Is that even part of the Japanese way of thinking?

With all respect for a totally foreign culture. :asian:


-T


----------



## Don Roley

thardey said:


> First, "shinobi" seems to be the most respectful term for this group of people. Is it disrespectful to use the term "ninja"?



No, but neither term was in much use historically.



thardey said:


> Second, in competitive situations, I have found the value of first allowing people to underestimate me (football, sparring, debating, etc), until they think that I am not a threat to them. (Sometimes allowing them to look down on me for months.) Then, when I surprise them with some skill or technique that they didn't think I was capable of, they start wondering what else I can do. Before I know it, they imagine that I have almost supernatural ability, because their own imagination runs amok. People have been told on more than one occasion that I can "Do anything". Which of course I can't. But I don't tell my competitors that.
> 
> It seems that the public vew of shinobi is like that. Either people dismiss them as nothing more than theives and assassins, or they think they can jump over 10ft walls.
> Is it likely that the shinobi realized the value of underestimation that I have, and purposely set out to spread different stories to mess with their enemies minds, while making their skill highly coveted by their allies?
> 
> Wouldn't it be easy to tell people that "no, I'm not anything special -- I'm just a merchant" and then let someone see you do a magic trick and dissappear. They will spread your reputation faster than you ever could.
> 
> -But again, I don't know if that kind of thinking even has a place in the eastern mindset.- I'm from the northwest states, and that kind of thinking is relatively cultural. I went to southern Cal, for college, and they had no idea what I was doing. (BTW, it worked really well there.)



No, you are off the mark. There seems to be no attempt by the ninja to make them seem rather supernatural. That would make them a threat.



thardey said:


> Third, if the shinobi were trying to gather information, it would make sense to appear harmless -- a farmer, a merchant, a gardener, a musician, etc. so that people will keep their guard down and share information freeley. If that's the case, a working-class person wouldn't carry either a katana or anything distincly "ninja", but a general, working class waikizashi, right? (That's assuming that the working class carried waikizashi.)
> 
> Then, if I were a shinobi, I would dress as a merchant, (even if I was a samurai) drink some saki at the local pub, and sit around and tell legends about these crazy ninja-types, while gathering information. Thus the legend will be planted, watered and nurtured, and my mission would be accomplished.



No, popular culture during the Edo period seems to be a big source for the idea that they were supernatural. You know how media exagerates things for effect. There are some cases like the death of a Shogun while in Koga from disease. He most likely died from bad sanitary conditions, but in an age where magic was thought real- there was some talk it was a spell.

Remember, the Iga and Koga regions were known areas surrounded by paranoid folks. If these warlords thought that their neighbors were hiding mystical abilities and might come after them, they would be more likely to launch an attack before that could happen. The ninja tried to not draw attention to themselves or any abilities other than gathering information. In fact- unlike Hollywood, that is about all they were really known for at the time it seams.


----------



## thardey

Thank you very much.

So, the people living in the Iga and Koga regions more or less tried to live their own lives and avoid unnecessary attention. Sort of "fly under the radar" so to speak? 

Then they got a lot of unwanted attention from story tellers later on trying to make a buck off of these "legends"?  That sounds like a universal story to me 

That's when the terms "ninja" and "shinobi" were coined?

Sounds like I was making it too complicated.


----------



## Xue Sheng

I can't really add anything to this except I was thinking of the original question what is a Ninja and what is a ninja today and the only thing I can come up with is a ninja today is pretty much anything Ashida Kim isn't.

Sorry, I had to get that out, please forgive the silly CMA guys transgression.


----------



## Don Roley

thardey said:


> So, the people living in the Iga and Koga regions more or less tried to live their own lives and avoid unnecessary attention. Sort of "fly under the radar" so to speak?
> 
> Then they got a lot of unwanted attention from story tellers later on trying to make a buck off of these "legends"?  That sounds like a universal story to me



Well, not quite- but close.

Please try to consider that a lot of what you have read and heard about ninjutsu would probably make modern Japanese laugh. Hollywood has a lot to do with what non-Japanese think about ninja. (Oh yeah, and Ashida Kim and company.) And of course, what modern Japanese think about the ninja also is distorted by their media and entertainment.

The image of what people thought about the ninja in the 18th century is vastly different from either. Before we give an answer on the matter, we have to know where the questioner is coming from.


----------



## thardey

Don Roley said:


> Well, not quite- but close.
> 
> Please try to consider that a lot of what you have read and heard about ninjutsu would probably make modern Japanese laugh. Hollywood has a lot to do with what non-Japanese think about ninja. (Oh yeah, and Ashida Kim and company.) And of course, what modern Japanese think about the ninja also is distorted by their media and entertainment.



I don't doubt that -- that's why I realize that interpreting the ninja through a westerner's eyes is a foolish thing to do. How a culture fights is an area of fascination for me, because I believe that if I can understand how and why a particular culture fights, how they view their weapons, and what "rules of engagement" they assume, then I can get a small foothold into understanding what influences their day-to-day decisions. I believe that people have to be true to their beliefs in order to fight well. If how they fight is not in harmony with how they live, they will hesitate and be killed, or they will survive, but suffer guilt and shame for fighting "dishonorably".



> The image of what people thought about the ninja in the 18th century is vastly different from either. Before we give an answer on the matter, we have to know where the questioner is coming from.


If by "the questioner" you are referring to me, then I will try to be open.

When I was a naieve kid, I thought that "fighting fair" was important. You know, playground rules. I disliked the ninja because I understood that the ninja "cheated" in order to win. While my friends were obsessing over the 80's "ninja craze" - buying shiruken, "ninja swords", watching TMNT, etc, I stayed away. No cheating for me.

Then I got older, and I realized that life didn't have time for "fighting fair". That if I had the option to fight fair, then I had the option to not fight at all. That meant that if I had to fight, my best bet was to be a better "cheater" than the guy who forced the fight. During this time, I was beginning to look into the history of pirates, particularly compared to the British navy. I stayed on this idea until fairly recently. In many ways the only practical difference between the British navy and the "successful" pirates was in who endorsed them. Their tactics, strategies, opponents, goals, etc were built on the same culture. This difference was (IMHO) that the navy captains were endorsed by the empire, with birth and nobility playing a main role in the "endorsing", while the pirates, (specifically, the group known as "buccaneers") were unofficially endorsed by their respective king or queen (did you ever wonder how some got "knighted"?) and were elected to leadership by democratic vote based on performance. BTW the successful pirates were very disciplined and drafted their own shipboard rules. (No women on board, and no raping women at all being a common, but not famous one.)

So then I (foolishly, I admit) thought that this might explain the "differences" between samurai and ninja. That the samurai was a caste of nobility, who fought according to a strict Bushido code, and did what was necessary to maintain their "honor". (Like the British navy) While the ninja were common people who had the same skills as the samurai, but who weren't limited by "honor". (Like the pirates). The British navy tried to discredit the pirates, it backfired, and romanticized them instead, turning them into the classic anti-hero, fighting for the common man. I thought the same thing could have happened between the samurai and ninja, which would explain the romatic version of the ninja to the westerner's eyes.

Please remember, this conjecture was based on the limited resources I had, none of which I really trusted, it turns out for good reason. The above reasoning was me trying to sift through the legend and "ghost stories" to find something that was actually likely. So my search continued.

Recently, I have been seeing an acupunturist, something which I thought was voodo, but now have a deep respect for. I realized that I had a lot of predjuces against the eastern mindset, and I would like to break them. The easiest way to do that is through education. I realized that one of the biggest misunderstandings I had was in the concept of "balance". I thought it was a waste of time and energy to try to keep life in "balance. I figured life was unfair, and one should just learn to deal with it. But I found that in my religion, the concept for "righteousness" originally meant "balance" -- something that had been lost in most teachings. I realized that the Japanese and Chinese cared deeply for balance in all things, and so my interest grew.

Then I found this board, and began reading many of the historical debates on the ninja and samurai, and I thought this would provide a good insight into how the Japanese dealt with fighting honorably, fighting with/against nobility, "saving face" vs. "saving your hide", etc. The idea that the ninja were samurai is a new one to me, which is diffult for me to reconcile - thus my recent questions that you were kind enough to respond to.

I'm not particularly interested in learning to throw a shiruken. (I've thrown hunting knives since I was twelve). I don't have time to learn to fight with a katana (as I've posted on the SA forum, I'm already committed to rapier and longsword for the time being). I do want to make sure that my karate is useful on the street for survival, and not just for sport, and I wouldn't mind knowing how to disappear. (But then again, I'm an archery hunter -- you don't get a deer unless you can already disappear. No orange vests for us.) Besides, I'm on the sniper country chat forum for that. I've even spent some time doing magic tricks as a hobby, so I understand the concepts of misdirection and the power of letting people's imagination fill in the gaps. The "magic" of the ninja is not what I'm after.

But I would really like to understand more about how the Japanese thought about the ninja, about the samurai, and how these seemingly (from my perspective) different fiighting cultures learned to work together.

Now then I'm not sure what question to ask, other than, where do start? I don't even know enough about this to even know where to begin, or what sources to trust. I've been warned that some books that bear Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's name may not have been faithfully translated. I don't speak Japanese, and I don't see the opportunity to go to Japan anytime soon. Besides, I don't want to go until I can understand the culture there more.

Can you help?

I'm sorry if this post is too long, but I feel that the questions I am asking will require some time.

(BTW I'll be out of town for a few days, so I won't be able to reply)


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

thardey said:


> I'm not particularly interested in learning to throw a shiruken. (I've thrown hunting knives since I was twelve). I don't have time to learn to fight with a katana (as I've posted on the SA forum, I'm already committed to rapier and longsword for the time being). I do want to make sure that my karate is useful on the street for survival, and not just for sport, and I wouldn't mind knowing how to disappear. (But then again, I'm an archery hunter -- you don't get a deer unless you can already disappear. No orange vests for us.) Besides, I'm on the sniper country chat forum for that. I've even spent some time doing magic tricks as a hobby, so I understand the concepts of misdirection and the power of letting people's imagination fill in the gaps.
> 
> The "magic" of the ninja is not what I'm after.


 
Neither are most serious Bujinkan practitioners. You're spot on with your statement that preconceived notions about the ninja are difficult to get rid of, but while we're on that topic, you might want to know that the things you mention above do not take up the bulk of what we're practicing.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> Well, not quite- but close.
> 
> Please try to consider that a lot of what you have read and heard about ninjutsu would probably make modern Japanese laugh. Hollywood has a lot to do with what non-Japanese think about ninja. (Oh yeah, and Ashida Kim and company.) And of course, what modern Japanese think about the ninja also is distorted by their media and entertainment.
> 
> The image of what people thought about the ninja in the 18th century is vastly different from either. Before we give an answer on the matter, we have to know where the questioner is coming from.


As I understand it, I think you could probably make a pretty good comparison about the reality, versus perceptions at the time, and modern perceptions between the ninja in Japan, and cowboys in America.  

I think both were probably much more "ordinary" in day to day life than we want to admit (for their time & place) and much less romantic than we want to believe.  And I think that the image of both over time has gone through a lot of changes...  In fact, I bet that a "real Wild West Cowboy" wouldn't recognize many of the movie/film/fictional portrayals of himself anymore than a "real authentic ninja" would see himself in modern portrayals!


----------



## thardey

Nimravus said:


> Neither are most serious Bujinkan practitioners. You're spot on with your statement that preconceived notions about the ninja are difficult to get rid of, but while we're on that topic, you might want to know that the things you mention above do not take up the bulk of what we're practicing.



That is a new bit of information for me -- that changes a lot. So what do you spend most of your time on?

I'm also beginning to realize that I am as far off on the idea of the samurai as I am on the ninja. I knew that I had a fuzzy understanding of the samurai, but I think there are some other preconceived notions about them I need to weed out to understand this subject. 

I don't see a forum group marked "samurai" -- which groups could I read up on to find out more about them?


----------



## Sukerkin

I'd recommend that you do a little 'old fashioned' book reading first before venturing out onto the Web looking for information.  

By it's very nature, the internet fosters the spread of disinformation better than fact.  This is because the reality of any period of history (and the people that lived through it) is seldom simple and the Net thrives on sound-bites.

For a basic grounding in Japanese history, with particular emphasis being given to the Samurai, I'd suggest getting some of Steven Turnbull's works (like 'The Samurai Sourcebook' or 'Samurai - The Story of Japan's Great Warriors').  

To round things out, a book I've mentioned elsewhere on the fora is Giles Milton's "Samurai William".  This is a historical biography of William Adams (the inspiration for "Shogun") and covers a slice of Japanese life as seen from a Western viewpoint.  

Another nice little book which handles social history is Dr. Saburo Ienaga's "History of Japan" but that might be hard to get hold of.  "Japan - It's History and Culture" by W. Scott Morton might be easier to get.  However, for general history I'm sure that it will be quite easy to pick up several texts from your local book shops.

The best approach is to read widely at first and get an idea of the consensus in the academic community on the issues that interest you.  Because history is at least partially subjective, you can't rely on just one source of opinion ... because it might very well be wrong or contentious  ... so browse the field a bit.

Good luck.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

thardey said:


> So what do you spend most of your time on?


 
Establishing control.


----------



## thardey

Sukerkin said:


> I'd recommend that you do a little 'old fashioned' book reading first before venturing out onto the Web looking for information.



Very true - one thing I like about this particular forum though is that nothing is sacred, so "sound bites" and misinformed ideas like mine get questioned early and often. As the proverb goes "The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him."



> For a basic grounding in Japanese history, with particular emphasis being given to the Samurai, I'd suggest getting some of Steven Turnbull's works (like 'The Samurai Sourcebook' or 'Samurai - The Story of Japan's Great Warriors').
> 
> To round things out, a book I've mentioned elsewhere on the fora is Giles Milton's "Samurai William".  This is a historical biography of William Adams (the inspiration for "Shogun") and covers a slice of Japanese life as seen from a Western viewpoint.


It's funny, I had just bookmarked a page about William Adams and am about halfway through it. I was leery about using "Shogun" to learn about Japanese history, since it is a fictional book, and I've already been burned by getting ideas about Japan from that kind of stuff, but if it is a fairly accurate biography, that helps a lot.

Edited: I forgot to thank you for including names of actual books that you found helpful. It is very maddening to have people tell you to "go research" it while only warning you what authors to stay away from.


----------



## thardey

Nimravus said:


> Establishing control.



To what purpose?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Control over ourselves and those we may have to confront physically.


----------



## thardey

Nimravus said:


> Control over ourselves and those we may have to confront physically.



Thank you, I think I understand.

Does that include control of your environment?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

(Cue bencole)


----------



## Sukerkin

thardey said:


> Edited: I forgot to thank you for including names of actual books that you found helpful. It is very maddening to have people tell you to "go research" it while only warning you what authors to stay away from.


 
You are more than welcome, sir.  Always happy to help someone who is looking to learn, especially when they are frank and honest enough to admit what they don't know rather than pretending that they do :tup:.

EDIT: Please don't be mislead into thinking that the books I mentioned are either the pinnacle of sources or even that they do more than scratch the surface of the repository of works that there are on the subject.  I hope you find at least some of them a useful starting point tho'.


----------



## thardey

Sukerkin said:


> You are more than welcome, sir.  Always happy to help someone who is looking to learn, especially when they are frank and honest enough to admit what they don't know rather than pretending that they do :tup:.
> 
> EDIT: Please don't be mislead into thinking that the books I mentioned are either the pinnacle of sources or even that they do more than scratch the surface of the repository of works that there are on the subject.  I hope you find at least some of them a useful starting point tho'.



Any place to start is helpful. 

I personally don't see how pretending to know something will encourage people to help teach me, but, then again, not everybody is here to learn, are they? :uhyeah:


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## thardey

Nimravus said:


> (Cue bencole)



Has this conversation already happened somewhere? If you could point out the thread, I would be happy to read it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Head over to martialartsplanet and do a search on "kukan". Or perhaps, if bencole's feeling talkative on the subject...?


----------



## thardey

Sukerkin said:


> EDIT: Please don't be mislead into thinking that the books I mentioned are either the pinnacle of sources or even that they do more than scratch the surface of the repository of works that there are on the subject.  I hope you find at least some of them a useful starting point tho'.



I was browsing at B&N last night, and didn't see the books you listed, but I did pick up a copy of "Code of the Samurai", translated by Thomas Cleary. Does anyone know of this book (he also had one called "Soul of the Samurai") is it well translated?

I also picked up a copy of "Shogun" -- not for the historical details, but for the cultural picture, so to speak. I'll probably start on it next month, since I'm in the middle of a novel right now.


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## thardey

Nimravus said:


> Head over to martialartsplanet and do a search on "kukan". Or perhaps, if bencole's feeling talkative on the subject...?



Aha! Now I'm beginning to see what you're after. Control, indeed.

There have been times that I think I have recognized kukan, but I didn't know what it was.

The most obvious to me is when I am landing a small airplane -- I have to "sense" the relationship between the wheels and the ground, I don't know how I do it, but that "perception" has always come naturally to me. It always has been instinctive.

Last week I was demonstrating "breaking the tripod" for take-downs on another black belt. There was a tangible sense of being "threatened" and off-balance when his foot was in the right position, even though he wasn't touching me. When he shifted his foot back to a "tripod" position, that feeling turned to a feeling of control and balance on my part. It was a strong enough sense that I commented on it, and he felt it, too.

I may be way off, but these were the sensations that were coming to mind as I was reading the explanations, I throw them out there to ask if they are appropriate.

If I have the right idea, I can see how it must be something that can't be analyzed in "the moment" but you must be aware of it.

-----
I study Spanish fencing alongside my karate (with my instructor's encouragement) I don't know if you've heard of "La Destreza" (the "True Skill") or "the Spanish Circle"?

Anyway, here's a brief synopsis http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/Spanish.php by Ramon Martinez.

Most of his pictures and illustrations come from a book by Gerard Thibault. Thibault believed that the way to defeat your opponent was not through speed or strength, but by manipulating the relationship between you and your opponent. He used complex geometrical patterns to describe this relationship, but you were only to keep these in mind while doing your drills. One the fighting started, you can only be aware of the circle, and how you fit into it, but not thinking about it too much, or you will hesitate and get killed.

I think it may be a western parallel to Ninjutsu, partially because of the philosophy and esoteric teachings that guided it, and partially because those who didn't understand it dismissed it as "silly superstition", and "magic". Many modern fencers think that "La Destreza" is nothing more than legend.

It may be through the practice of La Destreza that I can feel the sensation of control without touching your opponent, whatever the distance. Often we even control our opponent's blade without touching it. None of it is "supernatural" but it's not completely reasonable, either.  

Then again, I may have completely missed the mark. 

But thank you all for your patience, I have learned a lot in the last couple of days. I appreciate that you don't owe me this knowledge, since I haven't put in the time to study your art, but you have been kind enough to answer my questions anyway.

:asian:


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## Sukerkin

thardey said:


> But thank you all for your patience, I have learned a lot in the last couple of days. I appreciate that you don't owe me this knowledge, since I haven't put in the time to study your art, but you have been kind enough to answer my questions anyway.
> 
> :asian:


 
It was a pleasure, sir.  As I 've said previously, when someone wants to learn it's no hardship to do what you can to help.

On your earlier post, I'm surprised you can't find any of Turnbull's works, they're not exactly obscure .

I don't know if it's a help but here're some ISBN numbers:

The Samural Sourcebook 1-85409-523-4
Samurai 1-85648-703-2
Samurai William 0-340-79468-2

Another interesting book is Turnbull's "Samurai Invasion - Japan's Korean War 1592-1598" ISBN 0-304-35948-3.  No surprises what it's about but it can give you a little insight into the deep hatred that simmers between the two countries.

You might also like to look for some of A.J. Bryant's works.  Here's his website:

http://www.sengokudaimyo.com/

Have fun excercising your curiosity and mind just as much as your sword technique :tup:.


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## thardey

Sukerkin said:


> It was a pleasure, sir.  As I 've said previously, when someone wants to learn it's no hardship to do what you can to help.
> 
> On your earlier post, I'm surprised you can't find any of Turnbull's works, they're not exactly obscure .


 
I've found them on Amazon.com -- I'll probably just order from there.

You know how Barnes and Noble can be -- half the stuff was in history, half was in Martial arts, and half was in religion. And B&N is messed up enough to have three "halves". And my wife and kid were ready to leave.


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