# Street Defence? Blocks or avoidance?



## Corporal Hicks (Aug 28, 2005)

With reference to most street confrontations, asking those especially who have been or are involved with violence as as profession, would you say that avoiding attacks by movement or swaying or by blocking are more effective? Especially in regards to sucker punches?

Do you move into a stance if your challenged and somebody comes towards you and you know that fighting is the only resolve?

What are the most effective methods apart from running, say running wasnt an option? If somebody has squared up to you? Avoidance or block?
What blocks are generally street effective?

Regards


----------



## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 28, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> With reference to most street confrontations, asking those especially who have been or are involved with violence as as profession, would you say that avoiding attacks by movement or swaying or by blocking are more effective? Especially in regards to sucker punches?
> 
> Do you move into a stance if your challenged and somebody comes towards you and you know that fighting is the only resolve?
> 
> ...


Background: Martial Arts Instructor, Former Private Security Professional, Former Bouncer.

Avoidance is more effective.  Blocking works too takes more energy and gives way to being tied up.  Also gives way to being cut with hidden objects.  With regards to sucker punches try to avoid, but have the guard up incase the avoidance fails.

If fighting is ineveitable, yes move into "a stance" just not the stance I actually intend to use.  No sense in giving the other guy the advantage of seeing a stance that might indicate how I fight.

Most effective methods? Too broad a question all depends on the environment and circumstances.  All blocks are street effective but only as effective as the persons ability to read attacks.  Alot of times people frown on "traditional blocks" because of how commited they are in nature.  But they're just like attacks.  You only throw them when you believe they are going to land and that requires the ability to read movements and intentions.


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Aug 28, 2005)

avoidance.........getting out of the way is harder to practice for initially.....but if you can escape, you can attack easier.


----------



## arnisador (Aug 28, 2005)

Avoid if possible; blocking is usually a back-up plan!


----------



## Bammx2 (Aug 29, 2005)

IMO,in order...

 Avoid,parry,block.
  I am speaking from over 20 years personal exerience both active and learning.
 When avoiding,footwork should be a major importance.Example,it is 100% impossible to "bob & weave" effectively if your base footwork is crap,regardless of where your hands may be.It may not be the exact foot placement you practice in the dojo,but you get a "feel" of where they need to be when the time comes.
  Parry is  avoiding while redirecting at the same time.Saves energy and is better to set you up for a follow up.
 Blocking,as in static blocking,takes way too much time and energy to recoup from and follow up,especially in a street defense situation.You have way too many factors to deal with,mainly the fact if you start winning,his friends ain't gonna take to kindly to that.
 BUT....
 Don't count static blocking out completely.It can have its uses and it's good to know the basics to help with parrying.Static blocking can even come handy when you least expect it.


----------



## MJS (Aug 29, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> With reference to most street confrontations, asking those especially who have been or are involved with violence as as profession, would you say that avoiding attacks by movement or swaying or by blocking are more effective? Especially in regards to sucker punches?



I'd go with avoiding.  As for the sucker punches.  Most of the time they happen after a verbal confrontation.  No physical exchange and one person thinks that its over, turns his back and BAM!  In that respect, keep aware of whats going on around you.



> Do you move into a stance if your challenged and somebody comes towards you and you know that fighting is the only resolve?



I'd avoid dropping back into a set stance with hands up clenched.  This will give the wrong impression.  I'd rather take up either a slightly bladed stance or stand feet shoulder length apart.  Of course hands up in a non-threatening matter as well.  This IMO does not give the impression that you want to fight, but still provides you with movement as well as the ability to block defensively or do a pre-emptive strike.



> What are the most effective methods apart from running, say running wasnt an option? If somebody has squared up to you? Avoidance or block?
> What blocks are generally street effective?
> 
> Regards



I'd say whatever was best suited at that moment.  All of our blocks, punches, kicks, movements, etc. are giving us a foundation to build off of.  We shouldn't rely on something set in stone, but instead whatever fits the situation best at that given moment.  

Mike


----------



## Grenadier (Aug 29, 2005)

Blocks, even if done correctly, are going to require at least a certain amount of force on force application, whereas parries and avoidance moves require much less contact.  You don't want to give your opponent any free shots at injuring you, so it makes sense to use the methods that employ less hard contact.  As luck would probably have it, it's a safe thing to assume that the other guy will probably be bigger and stronger than you...

This is not to say that you shouldn't use blocks; far from it.  There are times that you will find that using a certain block may position you better for a counterattack, or maybe you might be able to use that block in an offensive manner.


----------



## OC Kid (Aug 29, 2005)

First I have been in many street fights. Second,now Im older /wiser I avoid them like the plague. But I will say if it comes down to it no way out. I think your training will give you the intuition that it is going to happen no matter what,
In that case the preemptive strike is the only way. Mr. Parker used to say 
"He who hesitates meditates in a horizontal position". 
In a street confrontation the agressor usually will win out of straight agression.
I as a MA have not lost a fight yet. They were all self defense and I struck first. But I have only fought for 2 reasons and this I tell my students,
1) To survive
2) For money (in a ring ect)

Never for pride or b/c someone stepped on my foot grabbed my GF's butt ect.
Only to survive.


----------



## Corporal Hicks (Aug 29, 2005)

Thanks for the replies, I've just incorporated movement as a main part of my workout after realising that my footwork is weak. I'm following the JKD method from Bruce Lee's fighting method, that is the stepping and moving, would praticing this movement over and over again do the job?
When praticing on the punchbag I move around it, ducking and weaving, attacking from different angles?
Any other good ways to improve footwork apart from football (scoccer)?
Kind Regards


----------



## Corporal Hicks (Aug 29, 2005)

OC Kid said:
			
		

> First I have been in many street fights. Second,now Im older /wiser I avoid them like the plague. But I will say if it comes down to it no way out. I think your training will give you the intuition that it is going to happen no matter what,
> In that case the preemptive strike is the only way. Mr. Parker used to say
> "He who hesitates meditates in a horizontal position".
> In a street confrontation the agressor usually will win out of straight agression.
> ...


Thanks for your post. The only quiery I have is that the pre-emptive strike could cause some problems over here. The fact that it becomes harder to prove that my opponent was behaving in a threatening manner and that I took action may become harder to have evidence for, especially if I'm on my own! What about the fights you were in? Did you have to go to court?
Kind Regards


----------



## bdparsons (Aug 29, 2005)

Always remember the wisdom of Miyagi-san:

"Best way no get hit... no be there."

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


----------



## rutherford (Aug 29, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Thanks for the replies, I've just incorporated movement as a main part of my workout after realising that my footwork is weak. I'm following the JKD method from Bruce Lee's fighting method, that is the stepping and moving, would praticing this movement over and over again do the job?



You might be able to build some attributes that way, especially if you get a boxing coach or somebody to give you some pointers on essential body movements.

But nothing is going to teach you to avoid a punch like having somebody try to hit you.  You need a partner for this sort of stuff.


----------



## Bammx2 (Aug 29, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Thanks for your post. The only quiery I have is that the pre-emptive strike could cause some problems over here. The fact that it becomes harder to prove that my opponent was behaving in a threatening manner and that I took action may become harder to have evidence for, especially if I'm on my own! What about the fights you were in? Did you have to go to court?
> Kind Regards


 Being a good ole fashioned country boy from america and living over here in the AND teach an FMA...
  I can offer this bit o advice....
 1- if you are on your own and you get assaulted by more than one person,or one person with friends close by,no court in the land is going to believe YOU started a fight with a group of people on your own.Pre-emptive strike...allowed.

 2-If it IS  1-on-1. They more than likely take your,and his,past accounts in consideration.If he is mugging you,more than likely,it's NOT his first time and he has a criminal record.If you truely believe you *** is grass,just tell the judge; "at the time I was in total fear for my life"..9 times out of 10...Pre-emptive strike allowed.

 3-Worse case scenario; do what you got to do,"tend to yo binness" and leave the damn area ASAP! Screw tha law! I don't care where anybody is standing,NO LAW has the right to make you a victim! "judge me rather than bury me" if it comes down to it. Pre-emptive strike MANDATORY.


----------



## searcher (Aug 29, 2005)

I am a firm believer in blocking and moving going hand in hand.   No matter which you choose to do first they both need to be there in order to be effective.   The pre-emptive strike is a good call, but be ready to get out as soon as you strike them.   You should also hope that they can't accurately describe you.   Here in the area where I live the first time you commit battery it is a $185 dollar fine and the night in jail.   Not really that much in comparison with your life.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 29, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> With reference to most street confrontations, asking those especially who have been or are involved with violence as as profession, would you say that avoiding attacks by movement or swaying or by blocking are more effective? Especially in regards to sucker punches?
> 
> Do you move into a stance if your challenged and somebody comes towards you and you know that fighting is the only resolve?
> 
> ...


 I would say move, don't be there. Keeping yourself rooted in one spot is going to get bad. Swaying, ducking, and all that jazz is just going to keep you off balance. You must move with your hips and shoulders inline for proper balance. As others have said, static blocks are going to zap your energy very quickly. In a survival situation, you need to be most efficient with your energy and movement.

 Me personally, I would not move into a stance since natural posture is a kamae from where I have the freedom to move in any direction. Plus it does not give away intent. The last thing you want to do is telegraph your intention.


----------



## OC Kid (Sep 1, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Thanks for your post. The only quiery I have is that the pre-emptive strike could cause some problems over here. The fact that it becomes harder to prove that my opponent was behaving in a threatening manner and that I took action may become harder to have evidence for, especially if I'm on my own! What about the fights you were in? Did you have to go to court?
> Kind Regards



No fortunately I didnt have to go court. Im a geezer now and in those days it was different. 
I got in quite a few bar fights. 

One more memorable fight was when a karate buddy and me went to a locals bar after fighting in a tournament in another town. 

We were having fun sticking to ourselves and buying beers for some of the locals. I even had the waitress sitting on my lap (no kidding) and some guys (3 of them)  at a table next to us said some things like "you guys think your so cool Ill kick your A$$es and before we could defuse the situation started to stand up so I jumped up as I was closest waitress flew off my lap and took off running and I hit this guy with a palm heel strike and the rest was a blur. But mikie and I took them out.

The waitress told the owner ( or whoever was in charge at the time) what happened and he didnt want us to leave, instead had the other guys kicked out , Iguess they were local troublemakers, when they woke up and possibly arrested as we got out of there rather quickly and didnt stick around..to bad cuz that waitress was a hottie....
But that was over 20 years ago, so you can tell Im kind of old now.

I did recently have a road rage incident where a couple of young kids assualted me so I defended myself ( blocked their strikes and a kick) then called 9-1-1 and had the police deal with them.


----------



## tradrockrat (Sep 1, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> With reference to most street confrontations, asking those especially who have been or are involved with violence as as profession, would you say that avoiding attacks by movement or swaying or by blocking are more effective? Especially in regards to sucker punches?
> 
> Do you move into a stance if your challenged and somebody comes towards you and you know that fighting is the only resolve?
> 
> ...


I've been in my fair share of situations through the years.  I lived in downtown Baltimore, hung out with a motorcycle club (though I was not a member),I was a bouncer for five years, and I have taught self defense for quite a while now.  One of my freinds even teases me that I moved to Los Angeles _to get away from_ the crazies.  Oh yeah, I taught two years in a Psychiartric facility for severely Emotionally Disturbed teens.  I dealt with flying desks, psychotic episodes, improvised weapons, etc. all while bound by the strictest guielines and rules you can imagine (no joint locks?!)

Whenever I found myself about to get involved in a violent situation *as a bouncer* *or teacher* I followed a few set rules.  

1. Never turn your back until they are out of site - ever!  Sucker punches with brass knuckles can kill you dead.
2. I took a "stance" that was both feet shoulder distance apart, right foot slightly back from left (about 6 - 12 inches).  this made it not so obvious that I was preparing to throw down, but got my legs in a good position to move and maintain balance.
3. My hands came up, but stayed loose and open - no fists!  the idea was to prevent the fight if possible, not goad the guy into fighting.

Once the fight started, whether on the street or at work, I was always a "sway and parry" kind of guy.  I don't like static blocks at all.  The blocking I would do were really double parries or strong forearm strikes to the other guy.

Can't really get much more specific cause every situation is different.

One important note - I must have broke every "rule" for street fighting there is - grappled two guys, high kicks, took on a weapon with empty hands, etc., but at the time it seemed to be what was called for.  Awareness is the key.



			
				 [b said:
			
		

> Corporal Hicks][/b]
> _Thanks for the replies, I've just incorporated movement as a main part of my workout after realising that my footwork is weak. I'm following the JKD method from Bruce Lee's fighting method, that is the stepping and moving, would praticing this movement over and over again do the job?_


_

_


_There is no substitute for sparring with another person, but footwork is good to have. ;-) 

_


----------



## Adept (Sep 2, 2005)

One note on the stances - It is a very short move from the purely defensive "please dont hit me, keep your distance" hands up stance, into a guarding stance


----------

