# Anyone know who Moon Lee in Australia is?



## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> this is exactly how we do it, I think I know the club, they are australian also. Maybe its an aussie thing



I saw this same video on this webpage:

http://www.moonlee.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=66

Anyone know who Moon Lee in Australia is?


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

Yeah I do, I have fiends who have trained there and they held classes in the school hall of my high school and basically most tkd black belts I knew as a kid were his black belts. In fact, moon lee lives in my parent's street. I think they are a kukkiwon club, at least they definetly were when I had friends training there. They do wtf sparring. Their students have a reputation for being very good. They have a lot of clubs in brisbane, gold coast, townsville and melbourne. They are pretty well known over here. I am friends with a third dan from there but havent caught up with him in ages. We do talk regularly on facebook though so if you have any questions let me know and I''ll ask him.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I saw this same video on this webpage:
> 
> http://www.moonlee.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=45&Itemid=66
> 
> Anyone know who Moon Lee in Australia is?



I looked through the webpage and if you ask me, it is ralphmcpherson's dojang, according to what he has disclosed about his school in his posts. GM Lee has 4000 students, does the palgwae poomsae, wears cross over dobok instead of a v neck which is prohibited, and they have plenty of small dojang in schools, rec centers and the like. And according to cyriacus, it is from the same place as ralphmcpherson's dojang. Whether or not that's true, I can go ask my friend about GM Lee. He knows all the kukki taekwondo instructors in australia.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> I looked through the webpage and if you ask me, it is ralphmcpherson's dojang, according to what he has disclosed about his school in his posts. GM Lee has 4000 students, does the palgwae poomsae, wears cross over dobok instead of a v neck which is prohibited, and they have plenty of small dojang in schools, rec centers and the like. And according to cyriacus, it is from the same place as ralphmcpherson's dojang. Whether or not that's true, I can go ask my friend about GM Lee. He knows all the kukki taekwondo instructors in australia.


cross over dobok, lots of students, palgwe forms, and schools in rec halls and schools etc describes heaps of clubs over here. I think Ive made it pretty obvious I dont train at a kkw club and cyriacius has no idea where I train,and according to that website he doesnt have a club anywhere near where I live. I do appreciate all the effort to find out where I train, but I really fail to see why its relevent.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

Also they have the same promotional time in grade requirements as disclosed by ralphmcpherson in his posts. GM Moon Lee requires that you have to wait the equivalent of your next rank (one additional year) in order to test, as opposed to the kukkiwon standard of waiting the equivalent of your current rank before you test. 

***

http://www.moonlee.com.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=76&Itemid=79

*What happens when you reach black belt?

*

 When you achieve your black belt  you then must train for a minimum of one year to grade for 1st Dan. To  qualify for second Dan you must train hard for a minimum of two years;  you are then eligible to grade for your 2nd Dan. You may have to wait  longer if you have missed training for any reason or if your instructor  does not think you are ready.



 For 3rd Dan you have to train for  an additional 3 years after achieving your 2nd Dan and the same rules  apply for further gradings; an additional 4 years training for 4th Dan, 5  years training for 5th Dan and so on.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

according to that website he came to australia in 1974, my GM came here in 1971.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

Asked my friend, got a super fast response: 

In relation to Moon Lee.

GM Moon Hwan Lee.  Jidokwan.

I believe his  last Kukkiwon grading was 6th Dan in 1976.

He must be about 70 years old.

He came to Australia in  1976 and was sponsored here by Ken Mayfield.  Ken
was GM Yong Dai Cho's student  in Queensland. He was originally to stay in
Queensland and then decided to  open schools in Melbourne.  At the time he
was with our national body ATA.   But he want to open too close to GM Young 
Youl Oh.  Back in those days they had a 5km radius rule
where you couldn't open next to  another club.  So he left and became
independent.  He formed the Moon Lee TKD  Association but didn't have any
other Koreans affiliate with him.  He wasn't  into sport TKD, so he just
focused on expanding.  They had no full time  centres, just in school halls.
He had about 50 of these branches mostly in  Queensland about 2500 students.
It wasn't until 1995 when 50% of his empire  decided to leave and form Yun
Hap TKD.  

GM Moon Lee still does the Palgwae  patterns instead of Taeguek.  They also still
use karate style uniforms. They  perform TKD like it was done in the 70's.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> Asked my friend, got a super fast response:
> 
> In relation to Moon Lee.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, I have heard of yun hap. Shame I spend 80% of the year in sydney or Id train there lol


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

Can you find out for me who the GM is at yun hap? Ive heard some 'strange' things about that club from a rhee student I know who trained there for a period. And, is yun hap kkw? and while you are in investigative mode, who is the highest ranking australian tkdoin? Thanks in advance.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

One more response:

GM Moon Lee and his instructors try and keep a tight grip on
their students.   Once black belt, some leave to explore other avenues.  Its
only after they do  some research on the internet that they become wiser.
For some its too big a  jump, so they remain content with GM Moon Lee or give up.

Prior to 2000, he was  telling his students they could go to the Olympics and
no one (ATA - the  National body) could stop them because it was the Olympic
team.  They didn't  even know that there was only 8 positions (we didn't have
to qualify that  time).

Once 2000 came and went, they didn't talk much about the  Olympics.

In terms of the Australian landscape it might be like USA  but on a smaller
scale.

My estimate is around 80-100k tkd members in  Aust.
WTF based 60%, ITF based 40%

TA 20-30k, STA 10-15K, ITF 10-15k,  independent 50-60K.

Of the independent 
GM Rhee - 5-7k (ITF based)   
GM Moon Lee 1.5k (palgwe patterns only)

GM Rhee use to be with the ITF in  the early 70's.  However he decided to leave
and focus on building his  empire.  I think GM Moon Lee got his vision from
GM Rhee.  "Keep your students in  the dark".  GM Rhee has been the most successful
club (numbers) in Australia.   He was nation wide and spends lots on
advertising.  Like a religion, he would  brain wash his instructors to go
spread the word - promote, promote,  promote.  He kept all grading fees.  He
had a military system of command.   Ie, state instructor, regional
instructor, branch instructor.  Easy to get to  1st guep, then very hard to
get promoted.  His reasoning was he was looking  for instructors and was
prepare for students to walk at that level.  You  could only get 2nd dan
after about 10-15 years or open a branch.  3rd dan was  for regional, 4th was
for state.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

Rhee tkd is huge over here, I had no idea they make it so difficult to get to 2nd dan though. It does explain why all their black belts I know are 1st dan. Choi's tkd is/was big over here also, I dont know if they are kkw, itf or independent though. A lot of clubs over here are quite 'backward' as far as marketing goes, so its hard to get info on all of them. I think its because the GM runs the show, and many are old and dont understnd marketing. Our club, for example, doesnt even have a wesite and that is not unheard of over here for many clubs. The computer savvy guys where I train are always asking if they can start a website, but the GM probably doesnt even know what a website is.


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> Asked my friend, got a super fast response:
> 
> In relation to Moon Lee.
> 
> ...



Jidokwan guy, interesting. I'll ask my Sabumnim about him.  Also interesting that the Australia Assoc. had a 5 km radius rule. I know the KTA had a similar rule a while back, but I don't think they have it today.

The Poomsae were off and kind of odd. What is with all the stamping on the floor with every motion? That is a shame especially with 1,500 students who sort of practice the Kukkiwon method, but will find out they don't fit in if they ever go outside of their small circle.  Actually I am disappointed to find out that he is a from Jidokwan roots. I wonder who his teacher was?


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> One more response:
> 
> GM Moon Lee and his instructors try and keep a tight grip on
> their students.   Once black belt, some leave to explore other avenues.  Its
> ...



Tells his students they can go to the Olympics, riding that wave of glory, but then when it don't happen he preaches anti-sport slant. Wow.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Jidokwan guy, interesting. I'll ask my Sabumnim about him.  Also interesting that the Australia Assoc. had a 5 km radius rule. I know the KTA had a similar rule a while back, but I don't think they have it today.
> 
> The Poomsae were off and kind of odd. What is with all the stamping on the floor with every motion? That is a shame especially with 1,500 students who sort of practice the Kukkiwon method, but will find out they don't fit in if they ever go outside of their small circle.  Actually I am disappointed to find out that he is a from Jidokwan roots. I wonder who his teacher was?


Yeah, I thought the stamping looked a little odd also. They do palgwe 8 and 5 different to the way I was taught. Do they still have the 5klm rule over here? that was the first Id heard of it, but come to think of it I cant think of two kkw clubs in my area within 5klm of each other. Or maybe thats just coincidence.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Yeah, I thought the stamping looked a little odd also. They do palgwe 8 and 5 different to the way I was taught. Do they still have the 5klm rule over here? that was the first Id heard of it, but come to think of it I cant think of two kkw clubs in my area within 5klm of each other. Or maybe thats just coincidence.



I wondered about the stamping. I wonder if it's intentional, or just something about the accoustics in that room? Considering how loudly his feet squeaked when he turned, I wouldn't be suprsied.

We also practice the Palgwe (primarily, with the taegeuks done as optional) forms, and there are certainly some differences. For one thing, the back stances as shown in those videos had the weight pretty much centered, while we do the back stance with about 70% of the weight on the rear leg.

And we don't stomp.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I wondered about the stamping. I wonder if it's intentional, or just something about the accoustics in that room? Considering how loudly his feet squeaked when he turned, I wouldn't be suprsied.
> 
> We also practice the Palgwe (primarily, with the taegeuks done as optional) forms, and there are certainly some differences. For one thing, the back stances as shown in those videos had the weight pretty much centered, while we do the back stance with about 70% of the weight on the rear leg.
> 
> And we don't stomp.


Yes we are taught the same. 70% weight to back leg. Our instructor will some times come and lightly tap a students front leg when they are in back stance to check they dont have half their weight forward, in which case they will fall over. The guy in those videos seemed quite 'heavy' in the way he did things, he seems to 'plod' through the form. My instructor would not be happy about all the stomping either.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2012)

puunui said:


> I looked through the webpage and if you ask me, it is ralphmcpherson's dojang, according to what he has disclosed about his school in his posts. GM Lee has 4000 students, does the palgwae poomsae, wears cross over dobok instead of a v neck which is prohibited, and they have plenty of small dojang in schools, rec centers and the like. *And according to cyriacus, it is from the same place as ralphmcpherson's dojang.* Whether or not that's true, I can go ask my friend about GM Lee. He knows all the kukki taekwondo instructors in australia.



Um, what?

Where?


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Um, what?
> 
> Where?


Im just flattered he cares so much about where I train.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im just flattered he cares so much about where I train.



Awww... you've got your own little CyberStalker... isn't it cute?


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Awww... you've got your own little CyberStalker... isn't it cute?


It would seem that way. I dont disclose who my GM is because I can be quite outspoken on certain things and dont want my comments being associated with my club or GM because it may not always reflect their views. My GM is an elderly, very private man and probably wouldnt like one of his students making statements on the internet that could be interpreted as always being his personal views. I also dont see that it would be of any relevence to my posts, opinions or advice. I do though, think its sad that this club (moon lee) has basically been slandered in this thread for no apparant reason. It only makes my decision not to mention my GM's name more credible. Certain things said about rhee tkd in this thread are also either not true at all or a gross exageration, I know for a fact because I know people who train there (and I live in australia and see their students and havent just googled gossip about them). Two clubs have already been slandered in this thread and I hope no others face the same fate.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2012)

Well, technically it would be libel, not slander, since this is a written medium. But I get your point and I agree.

Sadly, there are a couple individuals here who are well known for repeating unfounded and/or unsupported rumors about any organization other than theirs. This is sad, because I personally think there is plenty of room in the world for different, equally valid, flavors of Tae Kwon Do.

Of course, I'm also the sort of silly idealist who would like to think that people could tell the difference between me posting my opinion and me repeating my GMs position. Craziness, eh?


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well, technically it would be libel, not slander, since this is a written medium. But I get your point and I agree.
> 
> Sadly, there are a couple individuals here who are well known for repeating unfounded and/or unsupported rumors about any organization other than theirs. This is sad, because I personally think there is plenty of room in the world for different, equally valid, flavors of Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> Of course, I'm also the sort of silly idealist who would like to think that people could tell the difference between me posting my opinion and me repeating my GMs position. Craziness, eh?


true, libel would have been a better term. I havent seen them dig up any 'dirt' on clubs from their organisation . I was particularly disappointed in comments made in this thread regarding rhee tkd, who are huge in this country and have an excellent reputation for producing good black belts, and by all reports master rhee is a very good tkdoin and person. Using terms such as 'brainwashing students" and "building an empire" are uncalled for. Very disappointing in my opinion.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> true, I havent seen them dig up any 'dirt' on clubs from their organisation . I was particularly disappointed in comments made in this thread regarding rhee tkd, who are huge in this country and have an excellent reputation for producing good black belts, and by all reports master rhee is a very good tkdoin and person. Using terms such as 'brainwashing students" and "building an empire" are uncalled for. Very disappointing in my opinion.



I did not know that GM Rhee had such a large system in AUS. He's well known here for his schools in the southern US, primarily Texas. My own Master has met GM Rhee and speaks very respectfully of him.
I find the "brainwashing" and "empire building" comments amusing, since the exact same comment could be made towards most any org.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did not know that GM Rhee had such a large system in AUS. He's well known here for his schools in the southern US, primarily Texas. My own Master has met GM Rhee and speaks very respectfully of him.
> I find the "brainwashing" and "empire building" comments amusing, since the exact same comment could be made towards most any org.


Its a different GM rhee here than the one in the US I believe. His is the only club Im aware of that has clubs all over australia. Unlike what was 'reported' by our in-house investigator here, they do very little, if any advertising (other than an ad in the phone book) and reputation alone keeps the club growing and expanding. They are very well respected, I certainly cant say anything negative about their students or instructors .


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## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did not know that GM Rhee had such a large system in AUS. He's well known here for his schools in the southern US, primarily Texas. My own Master has met GM Rhee and speaks very respectfully of him.
> I find the "brainwashing" and "empire building" comments amusing, since the exact same comment could be made towards most any org.


You sure Youre not thinking of Jhoon Rhee? Because thats a whole other Organisation


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Its a different GM rhee here than the one in the US I believe. His is the only club Im aware of that has clubs all over australia. Unlike what was 'reported' by our in-house investigator here, they do very little, if any, advertising (other than an ad in the phone book) and reputation alone keeps the club growing and expanding. They are very well respected, I certainly cant say anything negative about their students or instructors .



Interesting. Besides the name, they also share commercial success and ties to the ITF. Hence my confusion.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> You sure Youre not thinking of Jhoon Rhee? Because thats a whole other Organisation


Im sure they still brainwash people in order to build an empire though


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> You sure Youre not thinking of Jhoon Rhee? Because thats a whole other Organisation



Yes, I was. No first name was used, and given GM Jhoon Rhees commercial success, and the mention of ITF ties, I would not have been suprised to hear that his org had spread to AUS.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Interesting. Besides the name, they also share commercial success and ties to the ITF. Hence my confusion.


I thought they were the same for years, so you're not alone.


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## RobinTKD (Mar 24, 2012)

So what GM Rhee's are we talking about here? We have GM Jhoon Rhee in the USA, a GM Rhee in AUS, and we have GM Ki Ha Rhee in the UK (just to confuse it some more  ), and they're all ITF?


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## chrispillertkd (Mar 24, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> So what GM Rhee's are we talking about here? We have GM Jhoon Rhee in the USA, a GM Rhee in AUS, and we have GM Ki Ha Rhee in the UK (just to confuse it some more  ), and they're all ITF?



GM Rhee, Chong Chul is the gentleman in Australlia. While they all have roots in the ITF both Rhee, Chong Chul and Jhoon Rhee left Gen. Choi fairly early on. All three have sizeable followings.

Pax,

Chris


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## RobinTKD (Mar 24, 2012)

Thanks for clearing that up for me Chris. Even though I'm ITF, I don't hold a lot of love for Gen. Choi, instead if there's any one of the pioneers who I 'idolise' its GM Ki Ha Rhee. I met him last year, his technique and knowledge was amazing, and he was incredibly humble, he just stood and talked and went through some of the Chan Hong forms with me, a lowly red belt at the time. He did that even though I wasn't part of his organisation (UKTA) and it was before I found out that my Sabum had spent a good few years training with him.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> So what GM Rhee's are we talking about here? We have GM Jhoon Rhee in the USA, a GM Rhee in AUS, and we have GM Ki Ha Rhee in the UK (just to confuse it some more  ), and they're all ITF?



Well duh! Didn't you know? 

Shhhhh... its a conspiracy...


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## mastercole (Mar 24, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> GM Rhee, Chong Chul is the gentleman in Australlia. While they all have roots in the ITF both Rhee, Chong Chul and Jhoon Rhee left Gen. Choi fairly early on. All three have sizeable followings.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



GM Jhoon Go Rhee told me that he never left ITF because he was never in the ITF.  What did he tell you abut that?


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Im just flattered he cares so much about where I train.



They just can't quit you Ralph.  Some sort of unhealthy fixation on their part it seems. But stalkers are why there's shovels and back yards ya know.


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## mastercole (Mar 24, 2012)

The Last Legionary said:


> They just can't quit you Ralph.  Some sort of unhealthy fixation on their part it seems. But stalkers are why there's shovels and back yards ya know.



The question was about Moo Lee, based on a video that was posted, by Ralph. If you know about Moon Lee, great, add something useful, if you can.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 24, 2012)

mastercole said:


> The question was about Moo Lee, based on a video that was posted, by Ralph. If you know about Moon Lee, great, add something useful, if you can.



Naw. You're doing a great job stalking without me. I just got new shoes and wouldn't want to kick over the 'piles' you all like trodding in, so keep up the 'good work' and I'll be hanging out in the grown ups lounge.

Toodles duckey.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 24, 2012)

*Almost made it 30 days. Almost.

Remember this: 
*[h=3]*Moderation Level
*[/h]*
Bluntly put, don't start this **** again.

K?

Good.

*


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## mastercole (Mar 24, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Almost made it 30 days. Almost.
> 
> Remember this:
> **Moderation Level
> ...



I agree, let's keep on subject and avoid calling folks "stalkers" or any other rude names, thanks


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Awww... you've got your own little CyberStalker... isn't it cute?



Please don't confuse a good memory with "cyberstalking". Would you like me to summarize what you have disclosed on MT about yourself?


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sadly, there are a couple individuals here who are well known for repeating unfounded and/or unsupported rumors about any organization other than theirs. This is sad, because I personally think there is plenty of room in the world for different, equally valid, flavors of Tae Kwon Do.



Actually, both GM Lee and GM Rhee hail from our organizations. GM Lee for example, is a Jidokwan member, which was my first kwan and also mastercole's kwan. Both of us also enjoy solid personal relationships with many jidokwan members, including the past and current kwan jang. My jidokwan teacher lives about two blocks from me and one of my closest jidokwan seniors lives almost exactly one mile down the road. I know this because he jogs past my house and he said that looping past my house is the one mile mark. GM Lee also has kukkiwon certification.

GM Rhee as well as at least one of his brothers also have kukkiwon certification, even though they teach a version of the ITF curriculum. 

As for different flavors of taekwondo, again, I am constantly stating my opinion that you can teach whatever you want as far as taekwondo goes. However, if you are going to vary from the kukkiwon curriculum, then please do not mislead people into thinking that what you do conforms to the kukkiwon technical standards when they do not.


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did not know that GM Rhee had such a large system in AUS. He's well known here for his schools in the southern US, primarily Texas. My own Master has met GM Rhee and speaks very respectfully of him.



Different GM Rhee.


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## mastercole (Mar 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I did not know that GM Rhee had such a large system in AUS. He's well known here for his schools in the southern US, primarily Texas. My own Master has met GM Rhee and speaks very respectfully of him.
> I find the "brainwashing" and "empire building" comments amusing, since the exact same comment could be made towards most any org.



You are thinking of GM Jhoon Rhee, it's not him.


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> GM Rhee as well as at least one of his brothers also have kukkiwon certification, even though they teach a version of the ITF curriculum.



Forgot to mention that General Choi is, or was, a member of the Chung Do Kwan, which is my kwan, so by extension his followers are too. So that makes GM Rhee part of our "organization" as well in this additional way. When we have Chung Do Kwan meetings and gatherings in the US, GM NAM Tae Hi always attends, as do a lot of other Oh Do Kwan or ITF types.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 28, 2012)

who is this guy? I see his clubs around - http://qtfinc.com/about.html


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