# Royce or Rickson?



## yipman_sifu (May 11, 2006)

I train in Wing Chun and wanted to know something about the Gracies. Who is better. Is it Rickson or Royce?!. Many people I asked told me Royce, but I beleive Rickson was more accurate and lost no matches in a UFC record review I saw. So what's your opinions BJJ trainers?!.


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

Rickson is the "top dog" but Royce got choosen to represent the Gracie's in the UFC because he looked less intimidating and was smaller.  They wanted to show a small person beating much larger ones.


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## yipman_sifu (May 11, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Rickson is the "top dog" but Royce got choosen to represent the Gracie's in the UFC because he looked less intimidating and was smaller. They wanted to show a small person beating much larger ones.


 
that's obvious, but as I think that Rickson weights aroung 85KG, while Royce weights 80, not a big difference. So what is the difference if Rickson was there (I mean not much heavier).


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

Royce went on a pretty intense bulking up program prior to the UFC as well.

But, regardless, based on appearances alone, who looks more intimidating?


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## yipman_sifu (May 11, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Royce went on a pretty intense bulking up program prior to the UFC as well.
> 
> But, regardless, based on appearances alone, who looks more intimidating?


 
Appearance is not important. That's how most westerners judge their opponents. "Oh he is muscled he is strong and powerful". He is not muscled, he is nothing. That's not true. I think Royce proved how this silly mentality is completely wrong. It's the technique, the experience, and of course the surprise element that could determine victory. I hope that he win in the Matt Hughes issue.


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## Hand Sword (May 11, 2006)

Yep! That's exactly why Royce did the UFC. It was marketed to westerners. The Gracies wanted to prove a point, which has been driven home very well. He took on all of the Big monsters, and tapped them all out, very quickly, proving it's tecnique that counts.


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Appearance is not important.



Size and strength most definately ARE important in a fight.  Anyone that tells you otherwise is too lazy to get to the gym and has too much ego to admit that.


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## yipman_sifu (May 11, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Size and strength most definately ARE important in a fight. Anyone that tells you otherwise is too lazy to get to the gym and has too much ego to admit that.


 
Sure if you fight without experience you need muscles. Facing opponents in street brawls is different. You yourself trains in MMA field. Haven't you realized how Royce won?. was it by power?, by muscles. It's the technique my friend that is important. Same thing goes in Wing Chun. Not forgetting the fact that in street there are no regulations. If I am trained well. I don't need muscles to fight. All I need is speed and technique. Kicking someone in his groans or breaking his nose is a thing that doesn't need muscles to do. No matter how many hours you go to gym, those vital areas could never be strong to take blows. In Wing Chun, It was proved that big muscled opponents are nothing because during the Beimo era. The old masters used the big opponent's force against them and defeated them easily, that's why Wing chun is made for such an opponents. I think that you know about Jujitsu more than me, and sure you cannot deny that Jujitsu depends on techniques rather than power and muscles, otherwise we would never saw the Gracies victorious in the UFC if muscles were important, because you know that most of the opponents the Gracies fought against were much more heavier and better structured than the Gracis were.Am I correct ?!.


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

And do you remember who the first person to give him a hard time was?  Kimo.  A big, roided street fighter with not much technical skill.


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## Marvin (May 11, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Sure if you fight without experience you need muscles. Facing opponents in street brawls is different. You yourself trains in MMA field. Haven't you realized how Royce won?. was it by power?, by muscles. It's the technique my friend that is important.


What happens when you have two opponents who are of equal technique, weight, and speed but one is stronger?



			
				yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Same thing goes in Wing Chun. Not forgetting the fact that in street there are no regulations. If I am trained well. I don't need muscles to fight. All I need is speed and technique. Kicking someone in his groans or breaking his nose is a thing that doesn't need muscles to do. No matter how many hours you go to gym, those vital areas could never be strong to take blows.


I don't kow if you were serious about this part of your post or not, but people don't go to the gym the strengthing their groin or their noses. Whether you train for sport or for self defence you need you body to do what you ask of it. What weight lifing and other exercizes do is allow your body to maximize its potential, reguardless of what activity you are doing.


			
				yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> In Wing Chun, It was proved that big muscled opponents are nothing because during the Beimo era. The old masters used the big opponent's force against them and defeated them easily, that's why Wing chun is made for such an opponents. I think that you know about Jujitsu more than me, and sure you cannot deny that Jujitsu depends on techniques rather than power and muscles, otherwise we would never saw the Gracies victorious in the UFC if muscles were important, because you know that most of the opponents the Gracies fought against were much more heavier and better structured than the Gracis were.Am I correct ?!.


In the original UFC's the opponents were ignorant of how to defend against functional ground techniques in general and of BJJ in particular. If you watch the progression of the UFC's you will see a trend towards more and more athleticism. 
Also please remember that in the beginning, the UFC had alot fewer rules and martial artist with groin strikes and eye gouges etc, were allowed those techniques, only having to pay a fine if using them.


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## mantis (May 11, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Size and strength most definately ARE important in a fight. Anyone that tells you otherwise is too lazy to get to the gym and has too much ego to admit that.


like.. like that old saying (that i receive in my junk email all the time) SIZE MATTERS!


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 11, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Royce went on a pretty intense bulking up program prior to the UFC as well.


 
My intro to GJJ was through a close buddy of mine named Eric (nick-named "Mick" in many of these circles) who went to take the Gracie Challenge, and lost. He was a UFAF black belt under Norris; NCAA collegiate wrestler, AA kickboxer at the Jet Center, well-versed in Judo and Japanese jujutsu, as well as a 2-time powerlifting champion in his weight category for the state of California. He signed up at the Torrance Academy, and he and Royce became rapid friends; it was Eric who was Royce's weight trainer prior to the UFC's. Mick and I both worked as bouncers together with Kimo in Huntington Beach (Eric more than I), and it was Eric who chided Kimo into taking the Gracie challenge/entering the UFC.

As for who is better...between the UFC's and Rickson taking them (vale tudo) to Japan, Rickson would come to the academy to roll with Royce & Royler...at the same time. To work on legs, he would roll with them with his hands tucked in his belt. They wouldn't catch him. Yells of frustration  and portugese swearing could be heard coming from the smaller privates room.

Ricksons grasp on jiujutsu is different than most peoples, even the very advanced. Although he is a consumate athlete, Rickson has an intuitive feel for technical subtleties that pass most people by. Recent Rickson story involves him visiting a Brazilian championship black belt team in training, with a team champion who could boast having never been dismounted. Rickson watches from the side, announces the guys are doing the techniques wrong, and they say, "show me". So Rickson does...dismounts the guy, no problem, 3 times in a row using the same technique. He then switches position with the guy, who then fails to dismount Rickson.

Stories like this abound around Rickson. People who talk smack about him haven't rolled with him. When they do, the story usually changes. (Consider Marco Ruas...went from a Rickson basher, to admirer of his skills as being "on a totally different plane").

Towards the tail end of my short BJJ career, I switched to a Rickson school, and had the pleasure of rolling with him. It is a different world than rolling with other guys; a real bar-raiser. 

Royce is possibly one of the nicest guys you're likely to meet; honesty before ego. I heard him with my own ears, in the Torrance academy, respond to the question about who, out there, could/would beat Rickson. (insert thick Portugese accent about here) "Nobody beat Rickson."

Regards,

Dave

And I still think the Hulk would kick Spider-Mans butt.


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## Andrew Green (May 11, 2006)

I think the best answer to this will come in the form of a song:

http://www.youtube.com/p.swf?video_...ywvo/2.jpg&t=OEgsToPDskJRfZkE9HCSmGhSJjjg-9k4


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## yipman_sifu (May 12, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> What happens when you have two opponents who are of equal technique, weight, and speed but one is stronger?
> 
> 
> I don't kow if you were serious about this part of your post or not, but people don't go to the gym the strengthing their groin or their noses. Whether you train for sport or for self defence you need you body to do what you ask of it. What weight lifing and other exercizes do is allow your body to maximize its potential, reguardless of what activity you are doing.
> ...


 
Sure, training is important, but not the weight lifting that makes you bigger. That's what I mean. If really size was everything. WWE fighters will win among all others. They are really fake to the extent that here in MT. It is said to discuss wrestling but not the TV type . Yesterday, I saw a WWE match. It's really like a video game, wrestler A hits B then at a second B gets up and hits A (Very funny). 

Regarding the UFC. Technique is the most important thing. Watch in K1 how someone like Bob Sapp losses to much more lighter opponents. Of course they are heavy weight, but still 50KG lighter than Sapp. 
Now that is in a regulated match.

You told me that old UFC had no rules. Fine I didn't object,and still fighters won by technique. Same thing goes for the Vale Tudo Gracie chellnge. Did Carlson and Helio won by power, tell me. I am a Wing chun trainer, but I am speaking to you in the Jujitsu side so you can get my point my friend, it's all technique and proper training to perform every move in the style or system you learn.

Street is much more different. UFC and its brothers (K1 and Pride) needs special kind of techniques to be developed in order to be used to the regulations you are exposed to. Real fights never takes time, just seconds and it's over. You better practise how to punch and adopt your sences to moves and coordinated with your reflexes, instead if going to the gym and work muscles and when this muscled guy fights in street, he gets punches in his throat and fall down, only to wake up and find himself on a white bed sorrounded by doctors and nurses. Guess what, he is in the hospital, or maybe he would never get up again. I mean it's common sense my friend and it has been proven.(My instructor had a groundfighting against someone that is al least 45KG more than he is. The big trainer came to perform a grapple to the hip. My instructor shiffted tension of his knees and the man toppled and went down. My instructor followed him down and threw chain punches to his backhead in a gentle manner to show that he could have finished him if he wanted to.

Regarding if two fighters have the same level of fighting and one is more muscled, who would win?. I say that you are asking for impossible my friend, because each one of us has different understandings of fighting and although we may started training at the same time. You may be better than me because you get the moves more coordinated with your sences, while my brain needs more time for coordination. It all depends on the level of brain performance my friend.


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## Makalakumu (May 12, 2006)

I see what you are saying, but one thing that you have to realize is that when you compete at a high level, EVERYONE works as hard as they can on technique.  They put hours and hours and hours in practicing those techniques and getting them perfected.  The difference between competitors is now made up by sheer power.  This is why weight classes were implemented in boxing, wrestling, judo, and now MMA.  

And at really high levels, like those of the olympics, strength and technique are trained in ALL individuals to the absolute peak.  Those individuals are often unable to ever get any better then they already are.  In those cases, the competitions are settled by genes.


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## yipman_sifu (May 12, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I see what you are saying, but one thing that you have to realize is that when you compete at a high level, EVERYONE works as hard as they can on technique. They put hours and hours and hours in practicing those techniques and getting them perfected. The difference between competitors is now made up by sheer power. This is why weight classes were implemented in boxing, wrestling, judo, and now MMA.
> 
> And at really high levels, like those of the olympics, strength and technique are trained in ALL individuals to the absolute peak. Those individuals are often unable to ever get any better then they already are. In those cases, the competitions are settled by genes.


 
To be honest. I never thaught of competing in competitions. What I learn is purely for real situations where the environment matters. NO matter how realistic the regulated competitons seems, it is still far from reality and the strret turfs. There in streets you can be faced with weaponry or multiple opponents. I mean we all know why top boxers hire bodygaurds from martial arts background. It is because they are made for streets, while a boxer still is used to the bell, the refree, and the time. I personally choosed to learn martial arts for the self-defence purpose. That's why you will know that my opinions comes as if a real fight occured, not a ring or a regulated one. Sure in rings, weight and size matters, because a hit from a heavy guy inflicts more damage,+ that I cannot hurt this opponent in his vital point, so how could I win?. What really amazed me was Royce. He broke this weight fact and defeated giants, increadible.

Regarding genes. That's absloutely true. some people are just gifted enough to grasp things faster. that was mentioned in my previous post. Sure that's true.


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## Makalakumu (May 12, 2006)

Royce won because his skills were so much greater on the ground then anyone else AND he was able to contain the fights to the ground.  As fighters have equalized their skill on the ground, size began to make a difference again.  The bottom line is that I don't think that Royce would be able to walk into a heavy weight match, nowadays.


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## Marvin (May 12, 2006)

Yipman_sifu, I never said that strength training was the only thing to do, if that was the understanding you got from my post, that was not the intent and I will clarify. As to WWE style "wrestling" we both know that is not what we are talking about . 
Strength is an attribute to be trained, just like speed or cardio. I would never use or advise my people to use strength to make up for bad technique. If you are saying that someone who only lifts weights is not going to be a good fighter, then you are 100% correct. Weight lifting does nothing to simulate actual fighting. It is a training/exercise method.
As to Bob Sapp, he was a retired American football player who got recruited in to K-1 just because he was so huge. He had no technique at all! Check out Jeff Munson, he might be a better example, he has excellent technique. He won the ADCC plus he has monster strength.

I don't want this to turn into a street vs sport thread, but as to:


			
				yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Street is much more different. UFC and its brothers (K1 and Pride) needs special kind of techniques to be developed in order to be used to the regulations you are exposed to. Real fights never takes time, just seconds and it's over. You better practise how to punch and adopt your sences to moves and coordinated with your reflexes, instead if going to the gym and work muscles and when this muscled guy fights in street, he gets punches in his throat and fall down, only to wake up and find himself on a white bed sorrounded by doctors and nurses. Guess what, he is in the hospital, or maybe he would never get up again.



Real fights are short ( in my experience) because of three things; there is a great disparity of skill level between the participants, one participant doesn't know he's in a fight until he gets punched or it is multiple people attacking one person. Again, anyone who just lifts weights, or just does sprints, or just hits the heavy bag or just does the 108 on the mook jung is wasting their time if they think that alone will help them be a better fighter. Those are all just exercises, which by themselves will not help a person to fight.
You say it is impossible to have two equally matched fighters, if that is the case, then this disscussion is moot. You are correct again when you said that we all learn differently . But I think that you could find someone that is close to being on par with you.


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## Marvin (May 12, 2006)

In the street is is even more important to be in good shape, becasue it is your life or someone you love who's life is on the line. Not a meaningless (in the big picture) competition.


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## yipman_sifu (May 12, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> Yipman_sifu, I never said that strength training was the only thing to do, if that was the understanding you got from my post, that was not the intent and I will clarify. As to WWE style "wrestling" we both know that is not what we are talking about .
> Strength is an attribute to be trained, just like speed or cardio. I would never use or advise my people to use strength to make up for bad technique.If you are saying that someone who only lifts weights is not going to be a good fighter, then you are 100% correct. Weight lifting does nothing to simulate actual fighting. It is a training/exercise method.
> As to Bob Sapp, he was a retired American football player who got recruited in to K-1 just because he was so huge. He had no technique at all! Check out Jeff Munson, he might be a better example, he has excellent technique. He won the ADCC plus he has monster strength.
> 
> ...




I agree with you on everything you said except for the part you mentioned about training. Lifting weights will not help you to fight, that's true. Punching bags and doing the Wooden dummy techniques are fighting stuff, you train it to know fighting techniques, and to develop punching power. How you say it will not help you!, it's a part of combat training. Now I read your profile and you mentioned JKD. Can I know what exactly you train?!, never exposed to Chi Sao before!.


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## Andrew Green (May 12, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Lifting weights will not help you to fight, that's true.



Ok, strength is irrelevant to fighting...?



> Punching bags and doing the Wooden dummy techniques are fighting stuff, you train it to know fighting techniques, and to develop punching power.



It will, in the same way strength training will.  If you want to learn to fight you need a partner, otherwise it's just conditioning, same as strength training.



> it's a part of combat training.



So is strength training


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## Marvin (May 12, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> I agree with you on everything you said except for the part you mentioned about training. Lifting weights will not help you to fight, that's true. Punching bags and doing the Wooden dummy techniques are fighting stuff, you train it to know fighting techniques, and to develop punching power. How you say it will not help you!, it's a part of combat training. Now I read your profile and you mentioned JKD. Can I know what exactly you train?!, never exposed to Chi Sao before!.


 
In my I am stating that if you only do those things you are just execising. The heavy bag and the jung are sport specific exercizes. You need the feedback of sparring/ drilling with another person to know if you are getting better or if your techniques work.
Yes I am familiar with chi sao .


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## yipman_sifu (May 12, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Ok, strength is irrelevant to fighting...?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Man. I didn't say we have to be weak and fight. My point was that we don't need that muscle training to fight. Of course we need some muscles, but fighting muscles comes by practise and develpment. Not by getting big and boast, because this is the real mistake we fall in. We start to get bigger, stiffer, and depends on fool strength. Without technique, this big body we developed in gym might not be useful and we might be a joke from other shorter and lighter opponents which can beat us by their technique. that is my whole point. Hope that you finally get my point.

By the way. Are you the guy who gave a bad reputation to me at this thread, just asking .


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## yipman_sifu (May 12, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> In my I am stating that if you only do those things you are just execising. The heavy bag and the jung are sport specific exercizes. You need the feedback of sparring/ drilling with another person to know if you are getting better or if your techniques work.
> Yes I am familiar with chi sao .


 
That's the most important thing (Sparring and drilling).

Was is it you Marvin that gave me the bad reputation in this thread?, just wanted to know .


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## Marvin (May 12, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> That's the most important thing (Sparring and drilling).
> 
> Was is it you Marvin that gave me the bad reputation in this thread?, just wanted to know .


 
No, not me, I am a face to face kind of guy! I don't go in for that anomyous type of stuff.


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## yipman_sifu (May 12, 2006)

Marvin said:
			
		

> No, not me, I am a face to face kind of guy! I don't go in for that anomyous type of stuff.


 
I appreciate you Frankness, Thanx Marvin.


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## Marvin (May 12, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> this big body we developed in gym might not be useful and we might be a joke from other shorter and lighter opponents which can beat us by their technique. that is my whole point. Hope that you finally get my point.


I think we are in aggrement!!:cheers:


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## Rook (May 14, 2006)

I think Mr. Green's point (and I agree completely) is that all other things being equal, having more strength is an advantage.  

The same would go for better techniques, more techniques, more speed and alot of other things.


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## BallistikMike (May 14, 2006)

yipman_sifu said:
			
		

> Man. I didn't say we have to be weak and fight. My point was that we don't need that muscle training to fight. Of course we need some muscles, but fighting muscles comes by practise and develpment. Not by getting big and boast, because this is the real mistake we fall in. We start to get bigger, stiffer, and depends on fool strength. Without technique, this big body we developed in gym might not be useful and we might be a joke from other shorter and lighter opponents which can beat us by their technique. that is my whole point. Hope that you finally get my point.
> 
> By the way. Are you the guy who gave a bad reputation to me at this thread, just asking .


 
Your thinking muscle building for show and confusing it with functional strength training. Two very different beasts.

Strength will over come technique and it has.

Heart will over come strength and it has.

Technique will over come heart and it has.

Its all relevant and it all needs to be trained and put into the perfect blend for the individual.


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## Echsos (May 15, 2006)

Reading the last post made me realize that we all forgot a key component: heart.  Whoever has more heart/more fight in him will most likely survive the fight.  Heart has proven to be a very important factor in determining the winner in numerous occasions.  Of course, that being said, that we must not ignore technique and strength training as well.  

yipman, I think you're confusing strength training and professional body building.  The goal in strength training really isn't to look like the guys you see in magazines who are 6'5'' and weigh somewhere around 350 pounds.  Acquiring greater strength doesn't mean you lose flexibility either.  I'm just going to use me as an example here.  I weigh roughly 151 pounds.  I can bench 240 pounds.  Pound for pound that's not shabby.  I am probably one of the stronger guys in my weight category if anything.  I am relatively strong but I am still somewhat flexible(I can touch my toes and my face to my leg, I can even put my feet behind my head if that means anything ).  From what I've learned, as long as you stretch and do weight training, you'll be fine.


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## Shogun (May 16, 2006)

training under the Rickson Gracie Lineage, I can tell you that the whole family agrees Rickson is the undisputed champion of Jiu-jitsu. The only person who has ever come close to beating him was Rolls Gracie (RIP), who was largely responsible for Rickson's skill level


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## Shogun (May 16, 2006)

Also, Rickson doesn't lift weights. Rickson Gracie does a form of Yoga several hours each day, along with Kokyu (breath excercises). He does pull ups and thats about the extent of his "weight" training.


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## Echsos (May 16, 2006)

Some people are just genetic freaks who don't require weightlifting to be strong and ripped.  Just look at Carlos Newton, all he does is pushups and situps.


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