# Kata



## brothershaw (Oct 20, 2005)

I know that in the katas there can be alot of information, however with so many kata to learn do you feel overload? To remember them plus to learn all the nuances?


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## marlon (Oct 21, 2005)

Actually i feel challenged and excited.  i go back and still learn new things from the first katas i was taught.  I look at it as continous perfecting of what i will never get perfect.  But i enjoy the journey very much


Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Navarre (Oct 21, 2005)

Like Marlon, I find them to be fun, challenging, and useful. I know about 24 kata. I'm not even sure if that's a lot or not. But I still work on the first one as much as the last one. 

Certainly the techniques in the lower ones help me be ready for the higher ones. Sometimes the higher ones help me realize something new about the lower ones.

Although kata are important in my original karate system they do not even exist in my jujitsu system. But I still do them. To me they are like line drills, basic strikes, or sparring. It's all just another tool to help me develop myself.

I don't worry about the amount of katas or the number of moves. That distracts me from my focus. I instead try to get from them all that they can teach me and fuse that knowledge with my overall training.


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## brothershaw (Oct 21, 2005)

if you work on the lower ones as much as the last ones, thats alot of work.
we dont have alot of formsin the system I practice now ,but for serious students its still alot of work and time.


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## Grenadier (Oct 21, 2005)

I try to keep up with all kata that I've learned.  Remembering all of them isn't too much of a problem; it's the interpretations that I sometimes have to really think hard and re-study on a regular basis, since it's nigh impossible to find training partners from some of the older styles.  You can imagine all of the imaginary partners you want, but nothing can ever replace live people when it comes to performing the oyo / bunkai.


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## arnisador (Oct 22, 2005)

If you learn them slowly, it should be OK...but if they come too quickly, they can get confused in your head! usually each has its own "flavor" though, which helps.


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## terryl965 (Oct 22, 2005)

Kata's or poomse is the esence of MA so one must take the time to learn it forward and backwards.

Terry


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## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Kata's or poomse is the esence of MA so one must take the time to learn it forward and backwards.
> 
> Terry


 
Take this literally!  Doing kata backwards reveals very good technique that may not be seen doing the kata forward.  Also, a good idea to practice the kata hontai (spelling?) or on the other side of the body.


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

I've done both of those, Twayman. There certainly make you think about your techniques all over again. 

Although the execution should be the same when reversed sides I often find it harder. While it might be that it's simply the confusion of relearning the kata, I suspect it means that I am more prone to use one side of my body. 

Although this is natural, it is also detrimental. My sensei was equally skilled from either side through practice alone. I try to work to be the same way.


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## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre,

Interesting to hear of others doing this.  The usual response is in the order of WTF??? Why do that? or some other negative response.


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## Navarre (Oct 27, 2005)

Well, some practitioners are purists in that they consider the katas almost sacred, not to be changed in any way. I assert that katas are a training tool, albeit with established tradition. 

Therefore I have no problem with making alterations for the sake of training. I'm not defiling some holy ritual as I still know the true kata; I'm just pursuing variations to advance my art. That's what it's all about.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2005)

I have created new katas to include techniques that were not included in the existing katas.  I find it easier to remember my techniques when they are in the context of a kata, rather than as loose pieces of information that are floating around independently.

In Kenpo, we have many self-defense techniques, many of which are included in the kata, and many of which are not.  These are the techniques that I have used in building new katas.  I don't pretend they are magical or innovative new kata, but rather are a repackaging of the existing material that makes it easier to remember it all, and therefor I am more likely to practice it all.  

Give it a try.  You get to be creative, and think about what makes sense.  it can be a rewarding exercise.


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## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Well, some practitioners are purists in that they consider the katas almost sacred, not to be changed in any way. I assert that katas are a training tool, albeit with established tradition.
> 
> Therefore I have no problem with making alterations for the sake of training. I'm not defiling some holy ritual as I still know the true kata; I'm just pursuing variations to advance my art. That's what it's all about.


Could not agree more.  The thing is most of the ones that knock the kind of training we are writing about do not understand much of what kata is about.  Alot do not understand the bunkai and oyo-bunkai within.  I had one go so far as to tell me that kata has no real value and separates useable technique away from kata.  

Here is another training aid not sure if you have tried before or not.  Take a kata and do it 250-300 times in a row.  Set aside enough time with on interruptions and just start hammering the kata out.  Very eye opening indeed.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2005)

twayman said:
			
		

> Could not agree more. The thing is most of the ones that knock the kind of training we are writing about do not understand much of what kata is about. Alot do not understand the bunkai and oyo-bunkai within. I had one go so far as to tell me that kata has no real value and separates useable technique away from kata.
> 
> Here is another training aid not sure if you have tried before or not. Take a kata and do it 250-300 times in a row. Set aside enough time with on interruptions and just start hammering the kata out. Very eye opening indeed.


 
I am also in agreement with what you are saying here.

One question:  How long and how physical are your kata?  most of mine in the Chinese arts are quite long and physical.  If I focused on only one, I could maybe do it 15-20 times at most, if I do it properly, meaning at full speed.  Some of these can take 1 1/2 - 2 minutes to do, and done at full speed.  It is kind of like sprinting a half mile each time you do one.  The thought of doing those 250 - 300 times makes me want to cry.


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## twayman (Oct 27, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> The thought of doing those 250 - 300 times makes me want to cry.


 
I know the feeling.  I thought the same thing then I did it one afternoon.  It took about 2 1/2 - 3 hours and I was drenched (in winter).  Honestly the kata I did runs about 35-40 seconds at a good pace.   For you 100 times  .  The goal here is to lock the kata into your muscles (soul?) and to do them with out thinking (mushin). 
Good training especially if you cant make it to the dojo or want to lose some weight. :bow:


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## Flying Crane (Oct 27, 2005)

twayman said:
			
		

> I know the feeling. I thought the same thing then I did it one afternoon. It took about 2 1/2 - 3 hours and I was drenched (in winter). Honestly the kata I did runs about 35-40 seconds at a good pace. For you 100 times  . The goal here is to lock the kata into your muscles (soul?) and to do them with out thinking (mushin).
> Good training especially if you cant make it to the dojo or want to lose some weight. :bow:


 
Much of my training is done by myself, so I do focus much of my energy on forms.  I train in a gym for a couple hours in the early morning before I go to work and I know how much of a good workout it can be.  Most of the time I am pretty soaked by the time I am done.  I am always amazed when people claim forms are worthless.  It takes mental energy to understand them, but they are full of valuable info and definitely worth the effort.  My problem is that I keep learning more and more from my sifu, but I always still want more.  I have probably almost three dozen that I practice regularly, including empty-hand and weapons, external and Tai Chi Chuan, and a few others that I had learned in the past, but let go for various reasons.  anyway, some interesting comments here.


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## Eric Daniel (Nov 8, 2005)

Guy's
I would just like to tell you there is an interesting article about forms. Check out the link to read the article
http://judoinfo.com/kata.htm .


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## twayman (Nov 8, 2005)

Eric Daniel said:
			
		

> Guy's
> I would just like to tell you there is an interesting article about forms. Check out the link to read the article
> http://judoinfo.com/kata.htm .


 
Thanks... good insight good article.  Don't take kata lightly.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Nov 9, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> I know that in the katas there can be alot of information, however with so many kata to learn do you feel overload? To remember them plus to learn all the nuances?


 
I don't feel any overload because the Karate styles I studied (Wado and Goju) does not have too many Kata. In Wado those under Dan ranks (Mudansha) only learn 9 Katas and of those 9, about 6 are so very short when compared to Katas from other styles. In Goju it's even simpler, the entire system consists of only 11 Katas, and when I studied Goju I only learn 4. Off course I have to be honest and tell you that of all those Kata from both Wado and Goju, I can execute none of them properly   and I can memorize the movements of only 4 (Sanchin and Tensho from Goju, Naihanchi and Seishan from Wado). Maybe that's why I am stuck in 3rd Kyu for years 

ANyway those 4 Kata I memorized, I do it everyday and it works wonders for my health. So Kata training is not a complete waste of time after all.


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## BlackCatBonz (Nov 9, 2005)

i believe kata is one of those elements of martial arts that is often the most underrated or overlooked for its value as a training tool.
IMO the very essence of form lies within each kata and that is why they are so important.
and whether your system does 5 or 50 forms, each one has certain nuances that will only be discovered through diligent practice and an observant mind.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 9, 2005)

My instructor once asked me how many times I had done a certain Kata. After thinking and doing some mental addition I told  him "about 1000 times"  he then asked me to do the form and to give him my impression of what was good and bad about the form.  I did as he requested and then he told me to let him know when I had done the form 3000 times  and had learned a little more about it.  True story folks.

I think we learn constantly from doing forms. It may be simple things like transferring from one stance to another or simply correct stance to things a little more complicated, but we learn.  By doing a form I don't just mean doing movement I mean doing the form as a battle or truly trying to feel the clawing techniques of a tiger, leopard. or what those wings might feel like in motion.

some systems stress learning fewer things than others and there is no problem in this. Others have a vast amount of things to learn and thus more forms. Both ways of training a good and the forms in both have much to teach a student


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## twayman (Nov 10, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I think we learn constantly from doing forms. It may be simple things like transferring from one stance to another or simply correct stance to things a little more complicated, but we learn.


 
Bingo... Hits the nail on the head.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 15, 2005)

twayman said:
			
		

> Here is another training aid not sure if you have tried before or not. Take a kata and do it 250-300 times in a row. Set aside enough time with on interruptions and just start hammering the kata out. Very eye opening indeed.


 
OK, so today I did this.  I picked one of my shorter sets, Long Two set from Kenpo.  It takes about 35 seconds or so to do it full power and speed.  I only had about an hour to do as many as I could.  I hit 52.  That's an average of about 1 minute and 6 seconds per repetition, including resting.  So, 35 seconds of furious activity, followed by 30 seconds of rest.  Actually, it was more like 8 repetitions followed by two minutes of rest, but there ya go.  Good activity.  Maybe I'll pick another one tomorrow...


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## JC2005 (Nov 15, 2005)

learning new katas is always fun, and every time I practice I work every kata up to my current one, and I usually find something that needs fixing in the lower belt rank katas and I do that kata over and over again until I feel better about it. My sensei tells us every class that we need to do something 10000 times minimum to learn something and then to still practice it. 

JC2005


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## kingkong89 (Dec 21, 2006)

true there is a lot of katas out there but most instructors will only teach you a set number of katas to learn so you are not req. to learn a lot.


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## JackShadow (Dec 21, 2006)

Personally I hate katas.  I just never got into them really, don't know why though.  I learn them and do perfect a few for tournament use.  But I generally just learn them well enough to tech them.  However, I do appriciate them and learn as much as I can from every single one I come across.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 22, 2006)

*Shadow, the more years you train in kata, the more you may enjoy them. Many fighters don't get into the kata until later in their training. The possibilities for techniques are endless. Many times when you discover what the moves are really for it gets more exciting.*


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## Carol (Dec 22, 2006)

Kata is the oldest method of passing along information from instructor to student, yet the effectiveness of instructors teaching kata vary widely because the learning style of students vary widely.

I love the forms we do in Silat.  I'm absolutely mesmerized when I watch someone perform them.  But when I try to actually do it...I wonder why the hell I'm actually paying someone to put me through such torturous frustration. 

Kata provide more than just a batch of techniques or some bunkai...it shows the flow, the motion, and the progression of the style.  For a perceptive instructor, it can provide many clues as to how a student learns, moves, and processes information.  Its then up to the instructor to make all of this come alive.


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## Shotochem (Dec 22, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:


> My instructor once asked me how many times I had done a certain Kata. After thinking and doing some mental addition I told  him "about 1000 times"  he then asked me to do the form and to give him my impression of what was good and bad about the form.  I did as he requested and then he told me to let him know when I had done the form 3000 times  and had learned a little more about it.  True story folks.



A very wise man indeed.  All you have to do is go back and start doing your first and most basic forms all over again.  They seem so very different and mean so much more now then when you first learned them.

If anyone has any old videotape of themselves doing kata, film yourself now doing the same kata.  The difference is amazing.


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## searcher (Dec 22, 2006)

At one time I felt as though I was not getting very much from the forms that I knew.   I felt as though I was just going through the motions, but then soemthing changed.   I had been teaching Chito-ryu for a while and decided to start a new style, I took up TKD.   I found that as I learned the Ch'ang H'an forms that my skills were becoming sharper and soem of my techniques were looking better.   So I went back and slowly picked apart the kata that I had been doing mindlessly for so many years.   I quickly became renewed with my training in kata and I stopped feeling like they were a waste of time.   I don't feel overwhelmed or even challenged, but I feel as though my knowledge base is expanding again from knowledge I possessed for years and overlooked.   I have been learning forms from other styles and "making them my own" for a few years now.   I still train in TKD and Chito-ryu with the fomrs from those styles( and I have even stated back into other styles from my past), but now I look to learn kata/hyungs/kuen form other styles as well.   They make me perform better as a MAist and I know that now.

So to answer your question in short, no I don't feel overload in any way when it comes to forms.


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## D.Cobb (Dec 26, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I have created new katas to include techniques that were not included in the existing katas. I find it easier to remember my techniques when they are in the context of a kata, rather than as loose pieces of information that are floating around independently.
> 
> In Kenpo, we have many self-defense techniques, many of which are included in the kata, and many of which are not. These are the techniques that I have used in building new katas. I don't pretend they are magical or innovative new kata, but rather are a repackaging of the existing material that makes it easier to remember it all, and therefor I am more likely to practice it all.
> 
> Give it a try. You get to be creative, and think about what makes sense. it can be a rewarding exercise.


 
My opinion of kata is that they are the encycleopedia of our styles. They contain the principles and concepts from which the specific nuances of our respective systems are created.

I think it is ok to create a new kata if that is what it takes for you to remember and train specific self defence techniques, especially for those of us who are in the technique driven systems like the various American Kenpo/kempo systems.

However, to take an old time kata and change it for any reason, is to lose the original message of the kata. Then we hold in awe the original masters, who performed feats of martial strength and dexterity by just using what they learnt from their katas.

But we, knowing better and looking for the easier way of doing things will change certain parts of kata, because "it makes more sense to do it this way", and in doing so don't even know what we have lost.

--Dave


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## JackShadow (Dec 27, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *Shadow, the more years you train in kata, the more you may enjoy them. Many fighters don't get into the kata until later in their training. The possibilities for techniques are endless. Many times when you discover what the moves are really for it gets more exciting.*



I do understand what the moves in kata do.  In fact that is one of the reasons why I learn them, to learn new techniques and perfect them.  IEven though I dislike Katas I do learn as much as I can from them.

I have to say that much of my dislike for katas is probably due to the fact that I'm young and enjoy kumite so much.


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## searcher (Dec 28, 2006)

JackShadow said:


> I have to say that much of my dislike for katas is probably due to the fact that I'm young and enjoy kumite so much.


 

I once had this type of mentality.   It quickly went by the wayside when I took up TKD adn I found the forms to be a great help with my sparring.   As I have stated before, you need to draw on every source of information to be at your best.   Open your mind and it will transform you.   That may sound clicke', but it is highly effective.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 29, 2006)

When I was younger I really enjoyed kumite. I learned early on that if I had weak kata , then my kumite was weak. Soke Madden always told me to work harder on my kata to improve my fighting.
Most of my mentors in karate were kumite people, that did not do kata in competition. But, they always put value on learning and training in kata. It is good to see now days that Shihan Traylon Smith is doing kata in competition. I would still like to see Sensei Joe Minney do kata in competition, he is really good at kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (Dec 29, 2006)

Kata has so much value its hard to express just how much value.  The true traditional sensei will understand and be able to express the value of kata in both their teaching and kumite.  I have to say if I could see better my kumite would probably be better but I still put lots of emphasis on kata for both self defense and kumite.


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## cstanley (Dec 29, 2006)

"Karate is kata; kata is karate."


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## twendkata71 (Dec 29, 2006)

Cstanley, what faction of Shito ryu are you? Just curious. I trained with some Shukokai people for a while and then I went to a camp with Minobu Miki(seito ha shito ryu), there was a big difference from the Shukokai, originally I think that Miki Hanshi was with the Hayashi ha group, but switched over and trained with Kenzo Mabuni Soke. Anyway, I found the Shito ryu style to have much depth and I like the hugh catalog of kata. I wonder how Mabuni O sensei could have learned so many kata.


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## shotokan-kez (Dec 29, 2006)

I'm always messing up on my kata's, it's bad cos sensei has his beady eyes on me at the moment cos im training towards black belt. But the more he watches the more i mess up cos of my nerves. Yet if i do all the kata's at home i do them very well.


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## cstanley (Dec 29, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> Cstanley, what faction of Shito ryu are you? Just curious. I trained with some Shukokai people for a while and then I went to a camp with Minobu Miki(seito ha shito ryu), there was a big difference from the Shukokai, originally I think that Miki Hanshi was with the Hayashi ha group, but switched over and trained with Kenzo Mabuni Soke. Anyway, I found the Shito ryu style to have much depth and I like the hugh catalog of kata. I wonder how Mabuni O sensei could have learned so many kata.


 
I am Motobu ha Shito ryu, but am currently training in a Goju dojo to understand the differences in how they do Goju kata and how Shito ryu does them.


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## Kwiter (Dec 29, 2006)

Methinks I best be quiet, after reading some of your posts it seems "I" have been wrong of late, my daughters BLAST thru their Kata like their heads are on fire and their butts are catching, I tell em to slow it down and "hold" each move a second the way I've seen Kata preformed at Tournaments.

They are currently doing Kenpo Kata Little Dragons and Little Tigers, they are Yellow Belts, no white stripe anymore.

Skennen Peace.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 30, 2006)

Are you affiliated with the Seishinkai international?
Kuniba Hanshi was a great teacher. I only wish I had the opportunity to meet and train with him. 
What have you found in the differences between the Shito ryu version and the Goju ryu version of Suparempei?








cstanley said:


> I am Motobu ha Shito ryu, but am currently training in a Goju dojo to understand the differences in how they do Goju kata and how Shito ryu does them.


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## cstanley (Dec 30, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> Are you affiliated with the Seishinkai international?
> Kuniba Hanshi was a great teacher. I only wish I had the opportunity to meet and train with him.
> What have you found in the differences between the Shito ryu version and the Goju ryu version of Suparempei?


 

I started karate in Seishin Kai when I was in junior high under one of Kuniba's senior students, Richard Baillargeon. Then, he formed NKJU and it was still Motobu ha under Kuniba as advisor. I stayed in the organization a few years, left for college, then moved around some teaching and training wherever I went. Some of my rank is from Hayashi's org., but I'm still Motobu ha Shito ryu. I am not in SSK now, just teaching on my own. But, I will probably join one of the major Shito groups this year because I feel the need to get back in the larger tradition. I hate all the organizational squabbling that goes on in a lot of the groups.

Suparimpei pattern and content is pretty much the same. There are some different hand placements in Goju that I have not had explained to me, and I don't see any Shito ryu rising and sinking like I see the Goju guys do. Goju's mawashi uke is different, too. I haven't been doing that kata very long, so I'm not a good one to ask.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 30, 2006)

I was curious. I learned the Hayashi Ha version, then later I learned the version taught by the Shito kai, very different. I have watched Hiagonna Morio Perform the Goju ryu version, it only seemed to be slightly different from the first version that I learn.
I would love to get a more in depth training in Goju ryu. We had a Goju ryu stylist that came to our dojo for a while, I think that he was 3rd dan, he would show me different aspects when I asked.  But back then I was concerned with kumite and winning tournaments. My loss. He is no longer at my sensei's dojo, He probably moved on and started his own dojo.


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## jks9199 (Dec 30, 2006)

Kwiter said:


> Methinks I best be quiet, after reading some of your posts it seems "I" have been wrong of late, my daughters BLAST thru their Kata like their heads are on fire and their butts are catching, I tell em to slow it down and "hold" each move a second the way I've seen Kata preformed at Tournaments.
> 
> They are currently doing Kenpo Kata Little Dragons and Little Tigers, they are Yellow Belts, no white stripe anymore.
> 
> Skennen Peace.



I'm glad your daughters are doing well.

There are many ways to approach kata training -- but I'm going to address two primary ones briefly.  You can train & practice for demonstration, which would include tournament competition, and you can train them as fighting skills.  Each has a different approach; when you training for demonstration, you're going to focus on showing how well you can do it.  The pace will be altered for drama & clarity.  When you train them for fighting -- the flow will be different, and you'll look at different aspects.  You'll also have to take sequences and pieces out of the kata, and find and understand the applications.  For kids -- especially younger kids -- I tend to focus on demonstration aspects, not the combative.  (As an aside -- you can also do them as a fitness exercise, by pushing the pace & number of repitions.  I've got one form that if I can blast it fast and hard 5 times...  I'm exhausted!)


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## cstanley (Dec 30, 2006)

There is only one way to do kata, and that is to try and do justice to the kata and let it come to life through you. If you are doing it as showmanship, that is ego and you will never get to where the kata is supposed to take you. Kata should not be viewed as a vehicle for you to express your personality; if you train hard for years, your spirit will show through the kata. But, if you do it in a "look at me" fashion, you are missing the point. That is why I believe that tournament kata is a distraction and only keeps you from progressing to deeper levels. As long as you are doing it for someone else to judge or be impressed by you aren't getting inside the kata.
Kata does not teach you how to fight. You have to understand the bunkai in order to know how the kata should be done, but kata should not be focused on as "fighting techniques." You can't "figure" kata out that way. Kata is kata; a pretty unique and complex thing. You just do it for years and things start to make sense and become clear.
Also, doing them fast for "conditioning" doesn't improve the kata. They should be done at a proper pace with lots of repetition. Your timing and rhythm will change over the years as you understand the kata and it becomes more a part of you. Speed for speed sake is never helpful..."the sword that moves fast cuts nothing." Take up jogging for cross training and don't mess up your kata with trying to make it aerobics. Or, take up Tae Bo.


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## twendkata71 (Dec 30, 2006)

Great post.


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## Kwiter (Dec 30, 2006)

Nia:wen Thanks for the tips


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## kingkong89 (Feb 7, 2007)

remember when the master practiced kata in old japan they may have only had 3 or four kats, one beggenr,one intermidiate, one advace, and maybe one kata only masters where able to learn


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## twendkata71 (Feb 7, 2007)

Uh, when you say "old Japan", which old Japan are you refering to? Karate was introduced to Japan in the early 20's.  And very few Masters only learned 4 kata. Motobu Choki being the one that comes to mind. Now if you mean Old Okinawa, that would perhaps be more appropriate. I can see a style being based on 4 or 5 kata a 100 years ago, but it wouldn't have the depth that karate has today. I guess it would be up to the descretion of the sensei. Perhaps Sakagawa or Matsumura, but then they taught about 10 kata in their total system, not all to the same students, in many cases. Many of the masters picked up kata from other masters to add to their knowledge, thus we have the modern styles of karate of today.


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