# Sport Fighting & Self Defense



## jarrod (Dec 31, 2008)

i see a fair amout of self-defense oriented martial artists on this forum who speak disparingingly of sport fighting arts.  this is a shame, because i think that while you can be adequately prepared for most SD situations without participating in sport fighting, sport fighting can be a valuable training aid.

let's examine boxing for instance, a sport i enjoy.  while training this sport, i've landed hundreds, maybe thousands of jabs on fully uncooperative opponents.  i've landed them on smaller faster people, & bigger stronger people.  i've landed jabs moving forward, backwards, & circling.  i don't have a perfect jab, but i know what it takes to put my fist in someone's face with enough force to make them pause.  

once you can do this, an eye gouge isn't a difficult adaptation to make.  instead of making a fist right before impact, you fan out your fingers & keep them fairly relaxed so that they slide into the eye sockets.  you simply take the timing & technical skill you developed in a combat sport, slightly modify it, & you have a perfectly viable self defense technique.  most sport striking techniques can be similarly modified.  instead of push kicking in the torso, target the groin.  instead of throwing a hook to the head, aim for the side of the neck, etc.  

now let's take a look at grappling.  obviously, the ground is not the ideal place to be in most self-defense situations.  nevertheless, to paraphrase a famous saying, grappling happens.  watch any boxing match, & count how many times the ref splits up the boxers from clinching.  it's the most natural reaction in the world to take a punch, & grab the guy who hit you so he can't immediately hit you agian.  from the clinch it can be a short trip to the ground, especially if the ground is icy, or there are obstacles to trip over, whatever.  once your there, you should know how to get up.  failing that, you should now how to win.

one prevelant concept that somewhat irritates me is the idea that grapplers are somehow magically prohibited from using eye gouges, biting, groin attacks, or what have you.  on more than occassion i've been asked "what are you going to do when you go to mount somebody & they grab your groin?"  well, i'd most likely bury my thumbs in their eyes.  i'd grab a nearby improvised weapon & bash them unconsious.  i would do whatever it took to prevent or stop their groin attack, & i certainly wouldn't expect them to let go just because i stood up in pain.  i'd also hope like hell that i wasn't wearing my kilt!  

in short, a grappler has all the tools available to any other martial artist, along with the advantage of position & ground awareness.  meaning, while attacking the eyes, groin, or throat, he won't overextend his arm, expose his neck, or make any of the other mistakes that can cost you a grappling match.  or in this case, cost you the upperhand in a possibly life threatening encounter.  

what's more, sport fighting also helps you to develop all sorts of attributes necessary to survive self defence scenarios: strength, conditioning, control during stress, calm during aggresive physical contact, & perhaps most importantly, determination.  so if sport fighting is not your flavor, that is fine.  i have many friends who cannot or do not participate in sport martial arts who i am confident could handle themselves when they had to.  but to believe that sport fighting & self-defense skills are not complimentary is, in my opinion, a great mistake.

respectfully,

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 1, 2009)

Sport fighting is great....I train with a group of guys training for MMA and Muay Thai (i'm too damn old to compete in that realm!) and it is great training for the street.....and many of the techniques transfer directly to self-defense with minor modification.

The only problem with strictly focusing on MMA and other sport fighting for self-defense is that there is a difference between the street and the ring, less because of the individual techniques, and more in how they are applied. Grappling works, but focusing on grappling with an opponent in the street as though it were the ring can be dangerous, as, unlike the ring, where the ref and security keep his friends out, being on the ground in a bar opens one up to kicks, beer bottles, pool cues, etc, from his friends and just innocent by-standers.......things never encountered or trained for in the sport environment.

Weapons are another element. If one trains strictly for the ring, and in a street altercation shoots to a grappling movie......only to find out he didn't see the guy had a knife, that can create problems.

So, again, the difference isn't technique, it's focus and mind-set......the mind-set to get in the ring really IS different than the mind-set one has to develop in a street fight......for one thing, fighting dirt in the ring is 'bad'......fighting dirty in the street is SMART!

Conversely, many of those who practice 'Reality Based Self-defense' and other 'self-defense' oriented systems often neglect physical development and conditioning, which are extremely important components to being able to defend yourself.

In short, an INTELLIGENT martial artist interested in truly preparing themselves to deal with physical violence, should take what works best from both sport fighting and reality based martial arts.......and that ESPECIALLY means using many of the tried and proven conditioning programs and sparring of combat sports!


Personally, I don't think we should even consider things in such distinct terms.....we CREATE that false dichotomy in our minds, but we shouldn't.....and I try not to....as Bruce Lee said...



> "Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick." -Bruce Lee


 
A punch really is just a punch......the difference is in understanding the context you're trying to apply it in.


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## hkfuie (Jan 1, 2009)

When you read something against sport fighting, I wonder if it is on a striking art board.  

I think it is different for arts like TKD (my art) because the rules are so restrictive, punches don't count, people stand there with their hands down and just do endless roundhouses (no offense meant!  Some of my best friends are Olympic style!)  I wonder b/c I think sport fighting in an art like TKD is very different from sport fighting in judo.  If you were penalized for using your hands in judo, then I think the comparison would be apples to apples.

I can't help but giggle at the picture in my head of guys trying to grapple without using their arms.


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## seasoned (Jan 1, 2009)

Quote:"Before I studied the art, a punch to me was just like a punch, a kick just like a kick. After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick no longer a kick. Now that I've understood the art, a punch is just like a punch, a kick just like a kick." -Bruce Lee quote:

Written by sgtmac 46.

It has been a long time since I read or heard this saying by Bruce Lee. It sums up our training over the years. 
To know, to not know, to hopefully, fully understand. Thanks for sharing.


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## searcher (Jan 1, 2009)

Everything has its place and use, sportfighting is no different.   It is very similar to those of us who shoot guns in competition.   Many bash on it, but they don't understand it.   If people would stop the nonsense of thinking that the way they do thngs is the be all, end all, they would be able to make great strides.   Over the last few years I have seen a big change in my own training by changing my own mindset.    Why can we not get ourselves together and move forward, in place of all the mindless bickering that goes on in MA circles.

*It seems to me that all who have posted so far in this thread have a good understanding of what I am saying. *

We all need to make use of anything we can to further progress ourselves and worry less about what others are doing.   Most of the people who bash on stuff are still in the whole, _my dad can beat up your dad mentality_.  Those people need to grow up.

Iam done ranting for now.   Thank you jarod for starting this thread.


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## terryl965 (Jan 1, 2009)

One can help some, just as well hirt some if they rtuely do not understand what SD really is. What happens is to many sport instructor try to pass the sport side off as self defense instead of leaving it as a sport.


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## Steve (Jan 1, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> One can help some, just as well hirt some if they rtuely do not understand what SD really is. What happens is to many sport instructor try to pass the sport side off as self defense instead of leaving it as a sport.


I think this hits the nail on the head.  A lot of the responsibility lies with the instructors and the "product" that they're selling.  If it's sport training marketed strictly as such, where any SD application is incidental, great if it's being sold as such. 

The only problems I see are where Self Defense training is being sold where there is no pressure testing of the techniques, nor any opportunity for the students so learn the timing and application of the techniques under stress.  Some amount of sport training is critical, in my opinion, whether it's formal or informal sparring.

I guess what I'm saying is that great sport training doesn't need a SD application, but great SD training, in my opinion, needs SOME amount of quality sport training.


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2009)

Sport fighting, in and of itself, is not automatically good or bad for preparing for a real fight.  After all, just about any sort of sport fight has sort of a family tie to real fighting.  Sparring contests devolved (?) from sparring as an exercise to practice techniques against an opponent.

The danger comes when someone mistakes the environment of rules and "gentlemanly conduct" for reality.  And that can happen in or out of competition.


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## horton (Jan 1, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i see a fair amout of self-defense oriented martial artists on this forum who speak disparingingly of sport fighting arts.  this is a shame, because i think that while you can be adequately prepared for most SD situations without participating in sport fighting, sport fighting can be a valuable training aid.
> 
> let's examine boxing for instance, a sport i enjoy.  while training this sport, i've landed hundreds, maybe thousands of jabs on fully uncooperative opponents.  i've landed them on smaller faster people, & bigger stronger people.  i've landed jabs moving forward, backwards, & circling.  i don't have a perfect jab, but i know what it takes to put my fist in someone's face with enough force to make them pause.
> 
> ...




good for conditioning but I still think you end up fighting the way you train, it's muscle memory.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 1, 2009)

All I will say on the topic of Sport Fighting & Self Defense is that I would sure as hell hate to come up against Cung Le in the street


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 1, 2009)

You know once a sat down, really sat down and thought about it, I can't understand the false dichotomy.

For example, I currently train in Judo, which many consider a sport, and in fairness it *is* most often taught as one.

But there are advabtages to it that many of my previous arts, for all of *their* good points, did not cover--I face several different resisting opponents every class, little bit standing, little bit from the ground, little bit standing/if it ends up on the ground continue on the ground, it helps inoculate you to fear of force-on-force in grabbing range where a large percentage of unarmed, and not a few instances of armed., trouble starts anyway, and it gets me into the kind of shape most other "traditional" arts just didn't ( i use traditional in quotes because the general MA community's idea of traditional and mine differ).

Well--boxing, muay thai, and BJJ are often considered sports( Though I would consider BJJ a traditional art myself). You gonna volunteer to tell those guys they can't fight?

If I am very lucky and can swing the finances, I'll be taking up small circle jujitsu in addition to judo and do them both.

There will be the "disallowed" moves in judo, but the physical training from judo will give me an effective framework FROM which to launch those joint locks, strikes or what-have you.


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## seasoned (Jan 1, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> All I will say on the topic of Sport Fighting & Self Defense is that I would sure as hell hate to come up against Cung Le in the street


 
Unless you found him in your house while you were asleep. At that point everything we are talking about, in these posts, would come into reality. At that point we don't consider anything except destruction. :shooter:


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 1, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Unless you found him in your house while you were asleep. At that point everything we are talking about, in these posts, would come into reality. At that point we don't consider anything except destruction. :shooter:


 
Oh if I found him in my house I'd kick his butt... that's my story and I'm sticking with it...... ummmm :uhohh:... he doesn't come to MT does he :anic:


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## searcher (Jan 1, 2009)

The only way to assure yourself of victory against Cung Le is to beat him with a baseball bat while he was sleeping.






Or you could yell Chuck Norris at him.    That would scare most mortals to death.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 1, 2009)

It all has it's place. Sport fighting can be helpful. It all depends on the person and what they want out of it.

The trick is far more into knowing how to read people and the street than sport .vs. Self Defense. If you can recognize bad street situations, able to spot indicators, and keep aware then you will see trouble coming and know either how to avoid it or defeat it. 

Wither your technique will be sport fighting or 'Self defense' will be only a small part of it.

Deaf


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 1, 2009)

searcher said:


> The only way to assure yourself of victory against Cung Le is to beat him with a baseball bat while he was sleeping.


 
I am actually not sure that one would work and lord knows I ain't brave enough to try 



searcher said:


> Or you could yell Chuck Norris at him. That would scare most mortals to death.


 
:lol:

NOW your talkin'


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 1, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> It all has it's place. Sport fighting can be helpful. It all depends on the person and what they want out of it.
> 
> The trick is far more into knowing how to read people and the street than sport .vs. Self Defense. If you can recognize bad street situations, able to spot indicators, and keep aware then you will see trouble coming and know either how to avoid it or defeat it.
> 
> ...


 Excellent point.....the combat sport develops the body and reflexes exceptionally well......the RBSD side develops situational awareness and mindsets specific to self-defense.  The two are not only not mutually exclusive, but when taken together they each make a practitioner VASTLY more effective!

Anyone remember the old debate about sports and weight lifting?  When coaches would forbid their players from weight training because they said it made them slow and bulky?  I think this debate is like that one!  I don't think there's a WINNING coach in football, baseball or basketball that tells their players 'now DON'T hit the weights!'


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## jarrod (Jan 1, 2009)

hkfuie said:


> When you read something against sport fighting, I wonder if it is on a striking art board.
> 
> I think it is different for arts like TKD (my art) because the rules are so restrictive, punches don't count, people stand there with their hands down and just do endless roundhouses (no offense meant! Some of my best friends are Olympic style!) I wonder b/c I think sport fighting in an art like TKD is very different from sport fighting in judo. If you were penalized for using your hands in judo, then I think the comparison would be apples to apples.
> 
> I can't help but giggle at the picture in my head of guys trying to grapple without using their arms.


 
it happens in the grappling world too.  every time i see a judoka bury his face in the mat & wait for a ref stand-up, i just want to go poop on his head.



jks9199 said:


> Sport fighting, in and of itself, is not automatically good or bad for preparing for a real fight. After all, just about any sort of sport fight has sort of a family tie to real fighting. Sparring contests devolved (?) from sparring as an exercise to practice techniques against an opponent.
> 
> The danger comes when someone mistakes the environment of rules and "gentlemanly conduct" for reality. And that can happen in or out of competition.


 
this is true.  if you're a history nerd like me, you know that warriors throughout history & legend have competed in some form of boxing &/or wrestling.  achilles, cuchulain, rob roy...the vikings practiced glima, but i'm sure they knew the difference between a glima wrestling match & a battle.



horton said:


> good for conditioning but I still think you end up fighting the way you train, it's muscle memory.


 
this is true; but this comment also often passes underanalyzed.  let's say you train eye gouges & throat strikes all the time in your SD art (not you specifically, horton).  those techs are too dangerous to do to against a fully uncooperative opponent, unless you can afford something like tony blaur's tactical protective gear.  so you may have the muscle memory to form your hand in a certain way & attack a static target, but have not developed the muscle  memory to to immediately capitalize on a split second opening against fully uncooperative target that is simultaneously attacking you as well.  muscle memory must be developed under extreme stress as well in order for it to be effective in a fight, because fighting is extremely stressful.

jf


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## allenjp (Jan 2, 2009)

There is another aspect to sport fighting which I think is often overlooked.

When you roll (everyone knows I'm a BJJ guy right?) with someone who trains like you do, they know many of the techniques you are going to use, and they know how to defend against them. In consequence, you are forced to train different ways of setting techniques up and applying them, because if you just go for it against a person that is not only resisting but knows what you are trying to do, chances are you are going to fail. That type of experience just makes your techniques that much stronger when you go against someone that doesn't necessarily know how to defend against your techniques.

For example, if a Judoka gets really good at performing throws against other judokas, I like his chances of being able to throw me if we meet on the street.

That, and I think that sport fighting goes a long way in removing some of the nerves that are involved in a real fight. And I think that nerves are a lot more important than many people realise.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 2, 2009)

allenjp said:


> There is another aspect to sport fighting which I think is often overlooked.
> 
> When you roll (everyone knows I'm a BJJ guy right?) with someone who trains like you do, they know many of the techniques you are going to use, and they know how to defend against them. In consequence, you are forced to train different ways of setting techniques up and applying them, because if you just go for it against a person that is not only resisting but knows what you are trying to do, chances are you are going to fail. That type of experience just makes your techniques that much stronger when you go against someone that doesn't necessarily know how to defend against your techniques.
> 
> ...


 
That's the key right there.

As Saint Cooper used to say when he was still amongst us, successful self defense is less a matter of skill than a matter of will.


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## jks9199 (Jan 2, 2009)

allenjp said:


> There is another aspect to sport fighting which I think is often overlooked.
> 
> When you roll (everyone knows I'm a BJJ guy right?) with someone who trains like you do, they know many of the techniques you are going to use, and they know how to defend against them. In consequence, you are forced to train different ways of setting techniques up and applying them, because if you just go for it against a person that is not only resisting but knows what you are trying to do, chances are you are going to fail. That type of experience just makes your techniques that much stronger when you go against someone that doesn't necessarily know how to defend against your techniques.
> 
> ...


Not always...

It can also set up the "you attacked me the wrong way" situation.  Lots of the knife and tappy-tap stick work out there is a good example; they're training tricks and tactics that will only work against each other, and are overly complicated for a "real" situation.  Or the student gets so tied up trying to trick and pull off techniques against people who know what's coming or work on particular motions or habits that they aren't practicing solid principles.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 2, 2009)

I think that there is a certain amount of common ground that can be found in sport fighting and self-defense training.  They are not the same thing and they require a different mindset and different approach to training.  But there is some common ground and they don't have to be 100% mutually exclusive of each other.


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## searcher (Jan 2, 2009)

I was just thinking about what I got the most out of "knockdown" kaarte events, which are a sport event and I think it is, getting hit hard and not freaking out.   Think about it, the purpose the other guy has is to knock you out.   I know it is not to kill you, but they still want to inflict harm on you and you are having to deal with that.   At the very least, you are going to be able to better control your adrenal dump.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 2, 2009)

jarrod said:


> i see a fair amout of self-defense oriented martial artists on this forum who speak disparingingly of sport fighting arts. this is a shame, because i think that while you can be adequately prepared for most SD situations without participating in sport fighting, sport fighting can be a valuable training aid.


 
I have stated before, it is not the art but the person.




jarrod said:


> let's examine boxing for instance, a sport i enjoy. while training this sport, i've landed hundreds, maybe thousands of jabs on fully uncooperative opponents. i've landed them on smaller faster people, & bigger stronger people. i've landed jabs moving forward, backwards, & circling. i don't have a perfect jab, but i know what it takes to put my fist in someone's face with enough force to make them pause.


 
This is good training. It is your experience. But is this common with the standard grapplers? I know I have heard from some who complain that they go to class and start out on the ground. This is technique isloation, and is good training but they complain that they do not train the stand up enough. 

So, I guess this would be school and individual dependant, 



jarrod said:


> once you can do this, an eye gouge isn't a difficult adaptation to make. instead of making a fist right before impact, you fan out your fingers & keep them fairly relaxed so that they slide into the eye sockets. you simply take the timing & technical skill you developed in a combat sport, slightly modify it, & you have a perfectly viable self defense technique. most sport striking techniques can be similarly modified. instead of push kicking in the torso, target the groin. instead of throwing a hook to the head, aim for the side of the neck, etc.


 
Jarrod, I agree it is a natrual transition. But is you never train it then you will not be good at it. The big thing I hear from the grapplers is that others who do not train the proper escapes from the ground they will not get out. The same is true for the eye gouge. I have known some who will cringe at the idea or even placing a thump over the person's closed eye, so they can push very lightly just to see the alignment. Others will not spend the time to strike bags or fruit or what have you. 

As to the groin target this could happen by accident so it is a good idea. But I know people who have trained so long in wrestling or ground rolling that they will not take the illegal shots. 




jarrod said:


> now let's take a look at grappling. obviously, the ground is not the ideal place to be in most self-defense situations. nevertheless, to paraphrase a famous saying, grappling happens. watch any boxing match, & count how many times the ref splits up the boxers from clinching. it's the most natural reaction in the world to take a punch, & grab the guy who hit you so he can't immediately hit you agian. from the clinch it can be a short trip to the ground, especially if the ground is icy, or there are obstacles to trip over, whatever. once your there, you should know how to get up. failing that, you should now how to win.


 
I agree it is natural to tie up. And it can happen you end up there for environmental conditions. The problem I have is the wrestlers and others that want to take it to the ground first thing. 

I agree that people should train environment and also on the ground. 

But, I have worked with Wrestling coaches that have done well in State and regional Comp before they were coaches. They just could not get over the conditioned training. 

I had one young 19 year old who challenged my "fat ***". I got him in a rear naked while I was on the bottom and he was on top of me. He could not get over the idea of not putting his back on the ground. He came up screaming that the Turtle Technique I did to him was illegal. Others explained to him, that the agreement was to see who could pin or tap the other on the ground, No strikes, and no collegiate rules. 




jarrod said:


> one prevelant concept that somewhat irritates me is the idea that grapplers are somehow magically prohibited from using eye gouges, biting, groin attacks, or what have you. on more than occassion i've been asked "what are you going to do when you go to mount somebody & they grab your groin?" well, i'd most likely bury my thumbs in their eyes. i'd grab a nearby improvised weapon & bash them unconsious. i would do whatever it took to prevent or stop their groin attack, & i certainly wouldn't expect them to let go just because i stood up in pain. i'd also hope like hell that i wasn't wearing my kilt!


 
I agree it is not a magical prohibition. But what stops the guy who is stand up from hitting at C2 when the guy goes for a single leg take down. What stops him from hitting so hard in the spin that they may not walk again? Nothing. It is all about training and what you expect. 

Any sport be it stand up or ground or mix has rules for safety. 

Even in self defense, not everyone is willing to bring the amount of damage it requires to stop or slow one. Those who have had actual conflict and have brought enough damage, to hospitalize, break, or even possible kill someone know that others who were seconds before ready to "Fight" you to the end, were really not ready to fight to the end. They could not and did not expect that level of damage and assault and agreession on them. 



jarrod said:


> in short, a grappler has all the tools available to any other martial artist, along with the advantage of position & ground awareness. meaning, while attacking the eyes, groin, or throat, he won't overextend his arm, expose his neck, or make any of the other mistakes that can cost you a grappling match. or in this case, cost you the upperhand in a possibly life threatening encounter.


 
While I agree on the ground they have the advantage. But if they do nto practice the stand up and the other person is willing to break them and permanently damage them, they have the possible advantage. But even this beginner for the ground has been able to surprise Black Belts and other high ranks because they did not expect this stick jock to understand joint locks and take advantage of what they gave me. If they were not showing off it might have been different. In one case the guy was going to separate my skull from the spin in a "choke", so I stopped "Going Along" and took it to him. I countered and then demonstarted what he was doing to me, and what he should have been doing for the oxygen choke or for the blood choke. Of course he was tapping the whole time and I did not stop. As he did not stop when I tapped, and told me he would only stop when I was unconscious. So I felt no issues with ignoring his tap. 




jarrod said:


> what's more, sport fighting also helps you to develop all sorts of attributes necessary to survive self defence scenarios: strength, conditioning, control during stress, calm during aggresive physical contact, & perhaps most importantly, determination. so if sport fighting is not your flavor, that is fine. i have many friends who cannot or do not participate in sport martial arts who i am confident could handle themselves when they had to. but to believe that sport fighting & self-defense skills are not complimentary is, in my opinion, a great mistake.
> 
> respectfully,
> 
> jf


 

I agree, to ignore would be a mistake. But to ignore the other end, or to have the superiority complex that ground fighters have the advantage all the time is just as big a mistake. 

Skill sets can be inproved in lots of ways. 

Conditioning can be improved lots of ways.

"That Guy" who is willing to do permanent harm to others also can be trained, but it also depends mostly upon what is inside the person. They have to decide what to do and to do it. Not hesitate. This is independant of the training method or the art or style.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2009)

allenjp said:


> There is another aspect to sport fighting which I think is often overlooked.
> 
> When you roll (everyone knows I'm a BJJ guy right?) with someone who trains like you do, they know many of the techniques you are going to use, and they know how to defend against them. In consequence, you are forced to train different ways of setting techniques up and applying them, because if you just go for it against a person that is not only resisting but knows what you are trying to do, chances are you are going to fail. That type of experience just makes your techniques that much stronger when you go against someone that doesn't necessarily know how to defend against your techniques.
> 
> ...


 I've seen that in the street as a Judoka and a BJJ practioner.....when you go hard against other Judoka and BJJ guys it's hard......but when I trip or throw a guy on the street and move to control him on the ground, even big strong guys, it's NEVER as hard as against other trained grapplers.....most folks, even in this day and age of MMA, are fish out of water once they hit the ground.

Likewise, i've had guys in the street try to push me, shove me and pull me down to the ground with them.  Just the sense of balance and training in off-balancing the other guy in Judo means that every shove or push in the street by some drunk or druggie feels like some awkward half-assed thing, even from big guys.  It would be difficult to replicate that in a purely RBSD environment.....that is the result of the kind of repetative sparring done in Judo and BJJ. 

Conversely, I apply a RBSD mindset to my techniques when i'm on the street, and a sense of situational awareness you can't replicate in a purely sport oriented training.  Take what's useful, leave the rest.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> That's the key right there.
> 
> As Saint Cooper used to say when he was still amongst us, successful self defense is less a matter of skill than a matter of will.



Absolutely!  As Napoleon said, the moral is to the physical as three is to one.  Physical development of body and technique is crucial.....but even more crucial is the will!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Not always...
> 
> It can also set up the "you attacked me the wrong way" situation.  Lots of the knife and tappy-tap stick work out there is a good example; they're training tricks and tactics that will only work against each other, and are overly complicated for a "real" situation.  Or the student gets so tied up trying to trick and pull off techniques against people who know what's coming or work on particular motions or habits that they aren't practicing solid principles.


 You're confusing drilling with hard sparring.....the 'tappy-tap stick work' is a prime example.  Drills can be performed in such ways.....but sparring against a resistive combative opponent, as you find in Judo and BJJ can't.....nobody calls 'you attacked me the wrong way'.....someone just gets choked out or tapped.....and THAT is the crucible where technique is tested.

As per stick work, that's why the Dog Brothers have gone so far on......hard core sparring to filter out what works, instead of constantly just drilling.  Sparring with as few rules as possible is a great filter of technique. 

To make sparring work even BETTER one should chane up their sparring partners before too much familiarity sets in.  Sparring against different styles even better.  That's how we ended up with modern MMA in the first place.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 2, 2009)

Rich Parsons said:


> I agree, to ignore would be a mistake. But to ignore the other end, or to have the superiority complex that ground fighters have the advantage all the time is just as big a mistake.
> 
> Skill sets can be inproved in lots of ways.
> 
> ...


  I would say, in reality, that STAND UP fighters have a far greater advantage than they do in the ring, given the right mindset.  

In the ring everyone knows there is a fight, and someone stands in the middle of the ring and tells them when to start.  In the street, bar, etc.....it's much more about unpredictability and the element of surprise (mindset!).  

It's generally easier to knock someone out in the street than it is in a ring.  Boxers do it all the time in some bar or parking lot or another.....and they do it because, unlike in the ring, where the other guy knows that punches are coming, is moving with his hands up, etc.....in the street many guys carry themselves wrong and allow the punch to be set up for maximum advantage, EVEN if the other guy was initially the primary physical aggressor.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 2, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> I would say, in reality, that STAND UP fighters have a far greater advantage than they do in the ring, given the right mindset.
> 
> In the ring everyone knows there is a fight, and someone stands in the middle of the ring and tells them when to start. In the street, bar, etc.....it's much more about unpredictability and the element of surprise (mindset!).
> 
> It's generally easier to knock someone out in the street than it is in a ring. Boxers do it all the time in some bar or parking lot or another.....and they do it because, unlike in the ring, where the other guy knows that punches are coming, is moving with his hands up, etc.....in the street many guys carry themselves wrong and allow the punch to be set up for maximum advantage, EVEN if the other guy was initially the primary physical aggressor.


 
SGT - SHHH!

Stand up would not have the advantage. That would make the Ground people upset.  It has to be equal for both cases or one side will feel slighted. 


Seriously, I agree. If you are aware of your surroundings and aware of situations as they develop then it would be an advantage. If  a person was caught totally unaware and they were hit and knocked down then the ground person would be at the advantage. They would be in their positions of familiarity, and also the person they are up against would be off balance just being hit and taken to the ground.


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## jarrod (Jan 3, 2009)

first of all rich, i didn't mean to give the impression that i was arguing about sport grappling.  i maybe discussed it more because that's my favorite flavor of martial arts, but really i'm talking about any sport fighting.  now pardon my HTML laziness, please see the bold below for my other comments:



Rich Parsons said:


> I have stated before, it is not the art but the person.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
jf


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## jks9199 (Jan 3, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> You're confusing drilling with hard sparring.....the 'tappy-tap stick work' is a prime example.  Drills can be performed in such ways.....but sparring against a resistive combative opponent, as you find in Judo and BJJ can't.....nobody calls 'you attacked me the wrong way'.....someone just gets choked out or tapped.....and THAT is the crucible where technique is tested.
> 
> As per stick work, that's why the Dog Brothers have gone so far on......hard core sparring to filter out what works, instead of constantly just drilling.  Sparring with as few rules as possible is a great filter of technique.
> 
> To make sparring work even BETTER one should chane up their sparring partners before too much familiarity sets in.  Sparring against different styles even better.  That's how we ended up with modern MMA in the first place.


That's why I said "can lead to" not is.

I've known people who mistook point sparring tag for "real" hard sparring.  I've known people who mistook fancy knife partner drills or controlled one-step sparring exercises with a partner who throws one punch, stops and gets "done to" for realistic training.

As I've said many times -- sparring is ONE way of practicing the learned techniques against a partner.  But, unless you want to run out of playmates, you can't really go full force against a training partner.  Sport style sparring is fun; it's a great chance to move and experiment against some resistance.  Sport competitions are a fun way to find new playmates, and maybe develop some bragging rights.  What even the hardest core sporting event isn't is a real fight.  (If it is -- it's not sports.  It's a fight to the death...)


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## Kwan Jang (Jan 3, 2009)

I do believe that sport sparring is a valuable drill towards self defense training. MMA/NHB sparring is pretty much as close to real as you can get in a safe, controlled enviroment and can greatly benefit your self defense training IF you are physically fit enough and far enough along in your training base to benefit from it. However, there is quite a difference between sport sparring and self defense. Many previous posts have addressed this, so I am not going to rehash the good points that have already been made, but I will add one additional point of my own and share an experience I had a few years ago. 

Sport fighting is a contest between two athletes who are (usually) fairly evenly matched under a specific set of rules trying to gain an athletic victory over the other along that rule set. Self defense is another matter as far as intent. It is trying to survive an encounter that was usually not of your choosing and the preferred objective is to "stun and run" in most cases. The only rule is that you survive by whatever means that are neccesary. Your opponents are not divided up by wright class, age, gender, ect. They often like to attack in numbers, by surprise and use weapons. 

Sparring is a very valuable drill to help provide live training against resisting opponents, but there are numerous other drills that will aid with this as well. Adrenal stress drills and even pattern (esp. as partner drills)work and one steps can be good beginner and intermediate drills to aid with SD skills. There really can be a danger of sport specialization though. Often when you limit yourself to sparring under certain conditions and rule sets, there is a tendncy to no longer mentally or physically prepare for things outside of that context. It is far from a given that this will happen, but I believe that it is something that you must consciously make an effort to make sure that you don't fall into that trap.

Frank Shamrock used to train a couple of days a week at my instructor's school for several years. He also taught a MMA/NHB class for senior black belts right after the Monday morning staff meetings. One class I participated in was on applying ground fighting as it pertained to the street as opposed to the ring or cage. We were working on striking from inside an attacker's closed guard and Frank was going over different strikes to different targets to help you be able to post up and get to your feet again. One target he didn't mention was the groin, so I brought this up. "Oh, in the cage, we wear steel cups, so it really doesn't do much good to strike there", Frank replied. I reminded him that this class was specializing in groundfighting for the street and he said "in that case, it sounds like a good idea". (It's been a few years and I may be slightly off on the direct quotes, but our conversation was very much along these lines).

With a fighter as experienced and technically/strategically minded as Frank, there was still the tendency to overlook things outside of "the box" he normally trained in. In fairness to Frank, he did spend a good deal of that class working on techniques and strategies that were along the lines of "if taken to the ground, don't stay there...here's how to post back to your feet as safely and quickly as possible". It's just the way you train is the way you react. If you are an Olympic TKD guy and all your training has your hands down and you never train with them up guarding your jaw, then don't be surprised if you get KO'ed by a left hook on the street. OTOH, if you are a well trained fighter and are trained effectively in RBSD and MMA, there is no reason that you can't go out and also play at Olympic TKD sparring.


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## Lightning Ram (Jan 3, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> The danger comes when someone mistakes the environment of rules and "gentlemanly conduct" for reality.  And that can happen in or out of competition.



Well said.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 4, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> That's why I said "can lead to" not is.
> 
> I've known people who mistook point sparring tag for "real" hard sparring.  I've known people who mistook fancy knife partner drills or controlled one-step sparring exercises with a partner who throws one punch, stops and gets "done to" for realistic training.
> 
> As I've said many times -- sparring is ONE way of practicing the learned techniques against a partner.  But, unless you want to run out of playmates, you can't really go full force against a training partner.  Sport style sparring is fun; it's a great chance to move and experiment against some resistance.  Sport competitions are a fun way to find new playmates, and maybe develop some bragging rights.  What even the hardest core sporting event isn't is a real fight.  (If it is -- it's not sports.  It's a fight to the death...)


 I agree in principle that a street fight CAN be worse.....and one should prepare for the ultimate opponent......the reality, however, is that most folks you run in to in a ring are tougher than 99% of any opponent you'll encounter in the street......the only difference is the inclusion of weapons and the element of surprise (which is where awareness and mindset come in). 

That's why fights involving professional boxers, just by way of example, in bars last mere seconds, and results in some non-boxer being rendered unconscious in the first punch or two.......even if they didn't throw the first punch.  Boxers, and other full-contact sport fighters, are used to getting hit and getting hit hard, and are not deterred by a punch of two to the head or body.  They have conditioned their mind to get hit, and more importantly, to instantly return devastating fire on the person that hit them.

Training the proper mindset is THE most important.....but training and conditioning the body is a close second.

Yeah, sport many combat fighters may not train a lot of eye gouges.....but when you've got the physical capability of rendering most human beings unconscious with a blow you've thrown LITERALLY thousands of times, I think you can survive without a good eye gouge.  They have mastered the basics of punches and kicks through repetition and hard sparring, and coupled that mastery of basics with intense cardiovascular conditioning and strength training to bring them to the peak of physical conditioning.....and those basics, and physical conditioning, when the proper mindset for the street is applied, are MORE than enough......not that they can't be an even MORE formidable adversary by applying RBSD techniques, mindsets and drills.......but the full-contact combat sport fighter brings a devastating arsenal to bear as is.


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## Zero (Jan 14, 2009)

Jarrod

I think what you write makes sense.  What occured to me the moment I started reading your thread and your comments on adopting moves or modifying certain techniques of sport fighting to be effective in SD was that, many of these sport and competition styles originate and derive from styles initially 100% SD orientated.  It just struck me as a point worth pondering in that we have ended up with many styles (such as judo from the original jujitsu) which are now heavily sport orientated and that we are now re-modifying them in part so that they resemble or are as effective, to a degree, as their original precursor style.

I have trained in a range of styles from pure sport to more SD orientated and I think (while it depends heavily on the instructors) all training and styles have something to offer in the real world and a SD instance.  I do agree though that the ones specifically focusing on SD applications and training in those will hold you in better stead to deal with quickly escalating situations or street confrontations (as often it is the mental response that saves your *** as much as the physical reaction).  However, so many of us, myself included, love the sporting styles as we love to compete in the ring, to challenge and prove ourselves on that level.  Not many of us, I hope, (at least once some maturity has kicked in (that's hopefully just started to happen in my instance)) want to be continually proving ourselves in street brawls and winding un in the pen.  Therefore boxing, judo, mma is all we got to focus on regarding that side of martial arts - personaly I don't want to be in a sanctioned fight were eye gouges are permitted.
Keep it real


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## jarrod (Jan 14, 2009)

agreed; sport fighting is the safest & most legal way to test your abilities.

jf


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## Brian King (Jan 14, 2009)

*Sgtmac 46 wrote:*



> That's why fights involving professional boxers, just by way of example, in bars last mere seconds, and results in some non-boxer being rendered unconscious in the first punch or two.......even if they didn't throw the first punch. Boxers, and other full-contact sport fighters, are used to getting hit and getting hit hard, and are not deterred by a punch of two to the head or body. They have conditioned their mind to get hit, and more importantly, to instantly return devastating fire on the person that hit them.


 
I agree that they have conditioned their mind to get hit. But many have also conditioned their fists to make contact while taped, wrapped and conditioned their bodies to do the work while warmed up and stretched. Which is one reason we read about (and I have seen) pros who get into a scrap end up with broken hands. This can be a real danger if they would then need to go to weapons or if the fight was to last weeks or months rather than seconds or minutes in my opinion.




> Training the proper mindset is THE most important


 
Agreed sir! Mental aspects are the most important in my opinion

Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## jarrod (Jan 14, 2009)

Brian said:


> *Sgtmac 46 wrote:*
> 
> 
> I agree that they have conditioned their mind to get hit. But many have also conditioned their fists to make contact while taped, wrapped and conditioned their bodies to do the work while warmed up and stretched. Which is one reason we read about (and I have seen) pros who get into a scrap end up with broken hands. This can be a real danger if they would then need to go to weapons or if the fight was to last weeks or months rather than seconds or minutes in my opinion.
> ...


 
true, but i've also heard of & seen pro boxers & kickboxers break their hand on a guy & keep punching with it anyway because they were determined to win.  it's just hard to beat the kind of toughness that can be developed in combat sports.

jf


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## Steve (Jan 14, 2009)

Just to set the record straight, I noticed it being brought up that grapplers use a cup.  While it's not uncommon in schools to train with a cup, many don't.  Jarrod mentioned he doesn't.  I don't, either.

Also, what I really want to mention is that many of the larger tournaments in the USA and Brazil do not technically allow a cup.  CBJJ rules forbid use of any equipment that may artificially alter the outcome.  So, if you are down at the Pan Ams or the Mundials getting your butt kicked and notice he's wearing a cup, you could technically have him disqualified.


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## Brian King (Jan 14, 2009)

*Jarrod wrote*




> true, but i've also heard of & seen pro boxers & kickboxers break their hand on a guy & keep punching with it anyway because they were determined to win. it's just hard to beat the kind of toughness that can be developed in combat sports.


 
There is no denying the truth of that Jarrod, toughness and adrenalin can make a broken hand negligible same with drugs and alcohol. I am merely pointing out that you can win the fight and lose the battle. Next time you break your hand take your pistol for instance and go compete in one of those all weekend shooting events, or put out that report due that the future of your employment depends on or finish and win the first fight but go again with the next opponent and the next and the next. 

Not all fights, not all self defense ends with the knock out. For action professionals they may well have many fights over many days. Broken bones even a small one while out in the bush can make the deference in survival or death. When you have people depending on your carrying your weight either by being able to continue the fight or bringing in a weekly paycheck injury may make the deference no matter your profession.

Regards
Brian King


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 15, 2009)

jarrod said:


> true, but i've also heard of & seen pro boxers & kickboxers break their hand on a guy & keep punching with it anyway because they were determined to win.  it's just hard to beat the kind of toughness that can be developed in combat sports.
> 
> jf


 Mammals produce adrenaline for a reason!  And how many football players have we seen who dislocate a finger, go to the side line snap it back in place, tape it and continue playing?  There's something to be said for physical toughness born of hard competition and training!


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## chav buster (Jan 15, 2009)

things like mma have good points like dealing with adrenaline and teaching you a basic skill set for fighting and i would say knowing mma would give you a real advantage over someone who dosnt train. but just like in mma where you have to be good at all ranges you  you need to be train in all ranges for street fighting may it be someone pulls a knife or theres multiple oponents or your seated or you get jumped ect.

you must try and train for whatever might happen for instance wrestling great it will teach you how to deal with clinching  and take down  an oponent who is over powering you with blows but you add clothing into the mix and it changes, you add headbutts and it changes again, you add striking to the back off the head/neck/spine and if you dont get that double leg your in real trouble and thats without talking about groin strikes gauging fish hooks ect.

another good excample is muay thai pretty much anyone person standing infront of you is going to take a kicking, but if you get attacked from a different angle you need to havent practice striking and foot work for those angles and you have no tactics for multiple oponents.

in my ju jitsu class the ground fighting looks completly different to how a bjj class would theres always a second or 3rd person involed who can whack you with at any given moment and the focus is mostly on escapes and sweeps to get you back to your feet rather then locks and choke even the positions are different and are mostly moderfied versions of the knee ride postion. i want go on about you shoulnt go to ground in a streetfight as it has been done to death but if you do hit the deck and you have only ever trained in a grappling art you will most likely attamp to grapple which isnt exclusively the same thing as ground fighting.


you do what your trained to in a fight so its ok saying you would adapt this and that but if you dont train it in the heat of the moment you probably want.

i have alot of respect for combat sport and feel that thay go a long way in self defence to prepare you for a streetfight but in themselfs i feel that thay are incomplete for a street scenario.


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## jarrod (Jan 15, 2009)

the problem with the idea that you fight like you train (although it does have a lot of merit) is that it is impossible to train just like a fight without doing serious bodily injury to yourself. so on the one hand you have pure RBSD type training which has difficulty simulating the stress of SD, then on the other you have sport fighting, which, IMO, is even more stressful than SD, but removes the techniques of RBSD. 

another issue is the amount of training: no competitve athlete trains twice a week & expects to win a competition.  yet how many people train teh deadlies twice a week & think they can disarm multiple knife weilding baddies?  competition is also great motivation for training.

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 16, 2009)

jarrod said:


> the problem with the idea that you fight like you train (although it does have a lot of merit) is that it is impossible to train just like a fight without doing serious bodily injury to yourself. so on the one hand you have pure RBSD type training which has difficulty simulating the stress of SD, then on the other you have sport fighting, which, IMO, is even more stressful than SD, but removes the techniques of RBSD.
> 
> another issue is the amount of training: no competitve athlete trains twice a week & expects to win a competition.  yet how many people train teh deadlies twice a week & think they can disarm multiple knife weilding baddies?  competition is also great motivation for training.
> 
> jf


 Good points.....though the idea of fighting like you train is to simulate as close as possible reality.....you can never actually achieve reality as you.

Fortunately for most folks, the average attacker isn't the average trained professional competitor........when he is, though, it's a bad day!


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## seasoned (Jan 16, 2009)

searcher said:


> I was just thinking about what I got the most out of "knockdown" kaarte events, which are a sport event and I think it is, getting hit hard and not freaking out. Think about it, the purpose the other guy has is to knock you out. I know it is not to kill you, but they still want to inflict harm on you and you are having to deal with that. At the very least, you are going to be able to better control your adrenal dump.


 
Very good point Searcher. My Sensei always taught, that mind set was very important. I could have the greatest weapons going for me, but if my mind wasnt in the game, I would get my a- - handed to me. If I may add to this, we have to bring our training as close to the real thing as possible. Obviously we can only go just so far, because it is just practice. But it was the mind set, that made all the difference. When we stepped into the DoJo, it was also with an air of seriousness, for that 2-3 hours, everything outside of the DoJo was put on hold. Everything we did was at 110%. Whether it was Kata, sparing, or drills, it was the feeling of kill or be killed. My Sensei never allowed us to take advantage of anyone either, but excepted us to never hold back mentally, when faced with him, or any of the higher ranks. When we were on the sparing floor, if we were dishing it out or taking it, always do it like it was a life or death situation. To this day, when training with someone, I distinguish the difference with my techniques, but never with my mental state. I have seen instructors as well as higher black belts running classes, get accidentally hit , just demonstrating blocks, how embarrassing. :asian:


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## searcher (Jan 16, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> As I've said many times -- sparring is ONE way of practicing the learned techniques against a partner. But, unless you want to run out of playmates, you can't really go full force against a training partner.


 


I have been accused of this before and it is a great arguement for sparring.


Without sparring how are you going to know what is going to work?   You won't.   Sport fighting is just moving the testing phase into an area where the other guy is even less co-operative.    If you want to do trial and error on the street, go ahead.   But the first time you make a bad error, you are going to pay in bruises, cuts, and maybe worse.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 17, 2009)

searcher said:


> I have been accused of this before and it is a great arguement for sparring.
> 
> 
> Without sparring how are you going to know what is going to work?   You won't.   Sport fighting is just moving the testing phase into an area where the other guy is even less co-operative.    If you want to do trial and error on the street, go ahead.   But the first time you make a bad error, you are going to pay in bruises, cuts, and maybe worse.


 Very good points!


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## searcher (Jan 17, 2009)

From a post in another thread I thought of something that sport fighting definately does NOT help with in prep for the street, the hands.    How many fighters have we seen that  break their hands the first time they punch a guy with bare fist?   Quite a few.   I have seperated my knuckles hiting with bare fist.    All of this by not training the body to know how much force to put into a shot along with the hands needing additional padding.

Just a thought that I needed to state.


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## just2kicku (Jan 20, 2009)

I think sport fighting like sparring is good for conditioning but more importantly it's good for your timing. I think it helps with anticipating an oppenents next move. But when it comes down to it you still need to practice as real as you can for the streets. For instance, if a guy shoots for you legs and you can reach his face and gouge his eyes, then do it. I teach our kids and adults that. If you can gouge out an eye then keep squeezing till it pops! Fight over. If he exposes his spine and you can paralyze the attacker, fight over. You don't get that if you only train for sport. I don't mean to offend anyone that's just my opinion.
Sijo once said " If there's blood on the mat itls been a good workout"


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## jarrod (Jan 20, 2009)

searcher said:


> From a post in another thread I thought of something that sport fighting definately does NOT help with in prep for the street, the hands. How many fighters have we seen that break their hands the first time they punch a guy with bare fist? Quite a few. I have seperated my knuckles hiting with bare fist. All of this by not training the body to know how much force to put into a shot along with the hands needing additional padding.
> 
> Just a thought that I needed to state.


 
i just recently considered this & i've been thinking of adding knuckle conditioning to my training.  good point.



just2kicku said:


> I think sport fighting like sparring is good for conditioning but more importantly it's good for your timing. I think it helps with anticipating an oppenents next move. But when it comes down to it you still need to practice as real as you can for the streets. For instance, if a guy shoots for you legs and you can reach his face and gouge his eyes, then do it. I teach our kids and adults that. If you can gouge out an eye then keep squeezing till it pops! Fight over. If he exposes his spine and you can paralyze the attacker, fight over. You don't get that if you only train for sport. I don't mean to offend anyone that's just my opinion.
> Sijo once said " If there's blood on the mat itls been a good workout"


 
i think you touched on something very important here; timing.  if i had to trade away all of my physical attributes & keep just one, it would be timing.  speed, strength, & cardio are just icing compared to timing.  

jf


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