# Any thoughts on a short clip of me shadow boxing?



## Ivan

Just uploading to ask what you guys think. I don't think I have posted a video of myself like this before.


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## jobo

Ivan said:


> Just uploading to ask what you guys think. I don't think I have posted a video of myself like this before.


yea, you need a tattoo and orange hands, other than that you move quite well


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## KOKarate

I think you need to buy a shirt


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## KOKarate

Note: the above is a joke


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## drop bear

Your structure is off a bit. In theory you are punching like you are going to hit something. So even though you are hitting air your punches still need to genarate power properly.

Where in your case your body moves then your arm moves it all looks disconnected from each other.


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## dvcochran

drop bear said it right. Shadow boxing can really improve twitch. But everything has to be controlled and loaded. What I saw was loose beginning to end and not much return.
But it is a start; keep it up. Review shadow boxing from pro fighters and I think you will better understand what we are saying.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Your structure is off a bit. In theory you are punching like you are going to hit something. So even though you are hitting air your punches still need to genarate power properly.
> 
> Where in your case your body moves then your arm moves it all looks disconnected from each other.


My thoughts are along the lines of these statements. But I would expand a little more.

When I shadow box, there's no difference between me shadow boxing and me actually trying to do the same combos in  a real fight.  My shadow boxing movement and strikes = my fighting moves in strikes.

I see open hands, and other movement that make me question if you could or would actually do those same movements in a fight.  I don't know how other people train shadow boxing, but for me, anything you see me do in shadow boxing is something that you'll see me pull off in in sparing or competitive fighting.

My personal opinion about shadow boxing is that people often try to do too much in the beginning,  Start with one punch shadow box your jabs, or shadow box a 3 hit combo. Start small and build upon, that.  Speed is important but not that important in comparison to getting other things in order.  Once you have to "other things"  then you can increase the speed when shadow boxing.   For example, once I get my combo working and everything is connecting, then I can start to speed things up in shadow boxing.

This is an example of me shadow boxing.  I will work this technique out every day until I can go left and go right. The shaking of my arms is not habit.  I'm naturally stiff in the shoulders so I'm always trying to remind myself to relax more.  I often use shadow boxing to figure out things out and to figure out which combos can lead into other strikes   






The speed that you do shadow boxing will vary depending on the focus of the training.


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## Danny T

I suggest you work on the fundamentals of your structure, footwork, and punching. Your movement appears to be moving for the sake of moving and no real understanding of the intent of it. Your footwork, body movement, weight distribution, striking movement all need to be done in coordination with a purpose. Your shoulder needs to cover your jaw when striking and your punches need to retract straight back to guard your head. This is going to sound harsh but I say it with no ill intent just honest opinion...while I appreciate your willingness to put yourself out for criticism and hopefully help I am going to be honest...I can not lie with this. Your fundamentals suck. That said, mine and everyone else's sucked just as bad if not worse when first starting as well. You just need to know what to work on. If you don't have a coach view a few pros shadow boxing on youtube and emulate them. Video yourself and compare your moves to theirs. Work hard, be honest with your self evaluation and you'll get better. Oh and get a good coach.


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## JowGaWolf

Danny T said:


> This is going to sound harsh but I say it with no ill intent just honest opinion...while I appreciate your willingness to put yourself out for criticism and hopefully help I am going to be honest...I can not lie with this. Your fundamentals suck.


Damn that is harsh lol.


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## dvcochran

Well said Danny T.


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## Oily Dragon

JowGaWolf said:


> Damn that is harsh lol.



Blunt, maybe.

What Danny said can be summarized in fewer words.

"Stop hopping around like a monkey".   So much wasted energy, you can see it drifting away above him.


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## Ivan

Thanks for the input guys. The way I am moving about in the video is a very relaxed form of myself; I sacrifice power, *and technique*, by aiming to relax my muscles as much as possible regardless of whether I need to use them or not. It's why my hands don't shape into fists, and why my arms look more like dangling ropes than anything else. I will post another video emphasising more on technique, and I hope you guys can provide some more of this great feedback and constructive criticism.


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## JowGaWolf

Ivan said:


> The way I am moving about in the video is a very relaxed form of myself; I sacrifice power, *and technique*, by aiming to relax my muscles as much as possible regardless of whether I need to use them or not. It's why my hands don't shape into fists, and why my arms look more like dangling ropes than anything else.


Don't sacrifice technique.  It's fine to be relaxed but you have to be relax within the techniques that you are using. If being relaxed is the goal then train relaxation for the movement that you need to use. You can still make a fist while being relaxed.  It's difficult but it's possible. The key is how you squeeze the fist.  If that's too hard for you then make but don't squeeze all the way until the end of the punch.   If you use open hand techniques then keep your hands open for those specific techniques.

If you need to get "loose" then do it before you throw your technique.  Shake your arms first then do whatever you have to do first to relax, then get into the ready position.

Here's how I always start with shadow boxing.
1.  Always begin with fundamentals.  Jabs only, hooks only, upper cuts only,  etc  (be sure to add simple movement.  forward and backwards movement only)
2.  Do 2 combo punches. Mix up what you did in #1 but only use 2 punches.  (and simple movement)
3.  Do 3 Combo punches.  Mix up what you did in # 1 but only use 3 punches (and simple movement.)App

After you get a couple of rounds then repeat #1 but now add one more movement.  So instead of only moving forward and backwards add an angle or side step then repeat the process again with the new movement.

For you I probably wouldn't recommend more than 2 combos and forward and backwards movement.   I would just drill those for the next month or 2 until they flow like water.  Be sure to visualize punching someone who is standing in a fighting guard.  You need to be able to visualize how that looks.   A good trick that I use is to video myself throwing some basic punches.  Don't do anything crazy in the videos.   Keep it simple,  One or 2 jabs with simple movement.  The watch that video over and over until you can visualize it.  Then once those movements are burned into your mind.  Then use those movement to help you visualize an imaginary opponent when shadow boxing.  This will help you visualize punches coming in.

When you shadow box, don't think of your punches always landing.  Visualize missing punches, and punches landing on the guard.   There's a lot that can go into how you shadow box which is why it's always good to start small and then work your way up.  If you try to move through it too fast then you'll end up visualizing some unrealistic stuff that will get you knocked out in real life.   Keeping things simple for a while keeps things from turning into a fantasy scenario.

Most important.   Don't worry about shadow boxing looking fancy like what you see professionals do.   That's not what it's about.  The reason why theirs look fancy is because they drilled the basics until it flows like water.  The more you do something the flawless the movement becomes.   So start simple, stay simple, and slowly build.  

It'll get boring form time to time, but have patience and work the techniques.  The video of me shadow boxing is a sample of how to keep things simple and how to slowly build.   I can do more than that, but sometimes training is about working the boring basics and squeezing everything you can out of basics.


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## Buka

Ivan said:


> Thanks for the input guys. The way I am moving about in the video is a very relaxed form of myself; I sacrifice power, *and technique*, by aiming to relax my muscles as much as possible regardless of whether I need to use them or not. It's why my hands don't shape into fists, and why my arms look more like dangling ropes than anything else. I will post another video emphasising more on technique, and I hope you guys can provide some more of this great feedback and constructive criticism.



Great attitude to have concerning constructive criticism, Ivan, good for you.

Relax and have a purpose to your shadow boxing, forget about hand speed for now. And learn to throw a lead hand hook.

Go gettum', kid!


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## Razznik

drop bear said:


> Your structure is off a bit. In theory you are punching like you are going to hit something. So even though you are hitting air your punches still need to genarate power properly.
> 
> Where in your case your body moves then your arm moves it all looks disconnected from each other.


To help with generating power when shadowboxing, I use weights (currently 5 kg ones)


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> To help with generating power when shadowboxing, I use weights (currently 5 kg ones)


yea, you can over do that and change the punch mechanics to much resisting the gravitational effects

the power of a punch comes primerily from speed and transfere of body weight, the actual strengh of the muscles is less important other than it helps develop speed

im not saying 5 kg is to much, just that there is a point quite low in weight terms where it can be


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> yea, you can over do that and change the punch mechanics to much resisting the gravitational effects
> 
> the power of a punch comes primerily from speed and transfere of body weight, the actual strengh of the muscles is less important other than it helps develop speed


Yes, I understand that, but it can also help develop punching _power_. If you combine both then shadowboxing with weights is much more effective then without.


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> Yes, I understand that, but it can also help develop punching _power_. If you combine both then shadowboxing with weights is much more effective then without.


but shadow boxing  is not good for developing punchibg power at all, doing it with weights doesnt therefore help much

hit things


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> but shadow boxing  is not good for developing punchibg power at all, doing it with weights doesnt therefore help much
> 
> hit things


If you shadow box with weights, it does help.


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> If you shadow box with weights, it does help.


helps? it marginaly improves something that isnt very good in the first place

particularly it removes the whole timing ellement of firing musclss in the exact sequence to develop power, you just end up moving your arm quickly, which isnt with out benifit just not much of one when compared to actually hitting things


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> helps? it marginaly improves something that isnt very good in the first place
> 
> particularly it removes the whole timing ellement of firing musclss in the exact sequence to develop power, you just end up moving your arm quickly, which isnt with out benifit just not much of one when compared to actually hitting things


It only doesn't help if you don't keep your guard up.


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> It only doesn't help if you don't keep your guard up.


ok, how have you measured how much it helps?


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## Razznik

Not exactly but I definetely felt more tired XD
that's ought to count for something


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> Not exactly but I definetely felt more tired XD
> that's ought to count for something


of course you felt more tired your swing 20 lbs about, if it improved your punching power is a different question.

using shadow boxing to work on your foot work is of more benfit to how hard you hit


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> of course you felt more tired your swing 20 lbs about


XD I wish


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> if it improved your punching power is a different question.


Yes. Not directly afterwards, but after training for a few days I felt a change.


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> Yes. Not directly afterwards, but after training for a few days I felt a change.


what change ? to what,?  measured how ?


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> what change ?


More punching power


jobo said:


> to what,?


To more punching power


jobo said:


> measured how ?


Through my punching


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> More punching power
> 
> To more punching power
> 
> Through my punching


punching what ?


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> punching what ?


A punching bag duh


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## jobo

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> A punching bag duh


so why dont you use the weight ir get some wrist weights AND hit the " punching bag" at the same time, that will give you greater improvements faster than air punching, or just lift weights that will make you stronger  faster than messing about with piddling weights

what shadow boxing is good at is foot work, that can indeed have a knock on to punching power , the weights are largely  irelivant to that


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## Razznik

jobo said:


> so why dont you get some wrist weight


Because I am low on funds, that's why


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## Oily Dragon

jobo said:


> what shadow boxing is good at is foot work, that can indeed have a knock on to punching power , the weights are largely  irelivant to that



Also, accuracy.  Something that wearing weights is going to cause you to misfire with when you're not wearing them.

All that "power" right into nothing.


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## Dirty Dog

Oily Dragon said:


> Also, accuracy.  Something that wearing weights is going to cause you to misfire with when you're not wearing them.
> 
> All that "power" right into nothing.



An awful lot of baseball players are going to disagree with you on this...


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> An awful lot of baseball players are going to disagree with you on this...



Baseball isn't punching, and there's a very good reason they weight their bats with donuts during practice. 

It's so they don't feel the weight of the bat and swing faster.  That's a speed thing, not a power thing.  

The ball weighs practically nothing.


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## Dirty Dog

Oily Dragon said:


> Baseball isn't punching, and there's a very good reason they weight their bats with donuts during practice.
> 
> It's so they don't feel the weight of the bat and swing faster.  That's a speed thing, not a power thing.
> 
> The ball weighs practically nothing.



In case you missed it in Jr High physics, speed IS power.


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## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> In case you missed it in Jr High physics, speed IS power.


oh no it's not, not even in junior high school


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## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> oh no it's not, not even in junior high school



Of course it is. The kinetic energy of an object is equal to 1/2 its mass x the square of its speed.
In the context of hitting or punching, the mass of a given object (baseball bat or fist or whatever) is a constant. The speed is the variable. More speed = more power.


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## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> Of course it is. The kinetic energy of an object is equal to 1/2 its mass x the square of its speed.
> In the context of hitting or punching, the mass of a given object (baseball bat or fist or whatever) is a constant. The speed is the variable. More speed = more power.


are we talking about power or kinetic energy?

 you said POWER power is work done divided by time, work done is not a constant, it depends how much work you do, obs


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## Kung Fu Wang

You may try some punch combo so your punch will be more 3 dimensional.

- jab, cross, hook, uppercut.
- hook, back fist, overhand, uppercut.
- ...


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## Oily Dragon

Dirty Dog said:


> In case you missed it in Jr High physics, speed IS power.



We were discussing accuracy, though, which is not why baseball players weight their bats.  

And I know of no fighter of any kind who weights their wrists on the heavy bag or sparring.  If you can find one, feel free to post it and drop the baseball analogies, which have nothing to do with any martial art or most other things they are used for.


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## drop bear

Ivan said:


> Thanks for the input guys. The way I am moving about in the video is a very relaxed form of myself; I sacrifice power, *and technique*, by aiming to relax my muscles as much as possible regardless of whether I need to use them or not. It's why my hands don't shape into fists, and why my arms look more like dangling ropes than anything else. I will post another video emphasising more on technique, and I hope you guys can provide some more of this great feedback and constructive criticism.



That sort of isn't how that works. Your structure is supposed to do most of the heavy lifting, which then is supposed to let you relax.






And of course you will see how his feet are always underneath him which is allowing him to move any direction he wants during and after throwing a combination.

And three dimensional boxing is a lot harder to deal with.


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## User2021

JowGaWolf said:


> My thoughts are along the lines of these statements. But I would expand a little more.
> 
> When I shadow box, there's no difference between me shadow boxing and me actually trying to do the same combos in  a real fight.  My shadow boxing movement and strikes = my fighting moves in strikes.
> 
> I see open hands, and other movement that make me question if you could or would actually do those same movements in a fight.  I don't know how other people train shadow boxing, but for me, anything you see me do in shadow boxing is something that you'll see me pull off in in sparing or competitive fighting.
> 
> My personal opinion about shadow boxing is that people often try to do too much in the beginning,  Start with one punch shadow box your jabs, or shadow box a 3 hit combo. Start small and build upon, that.  Speed is important but not that important in comparison to getting other things in order.  Once you have to "other things"  then you can increase the speed when shadow boxing.   For example, once I get my combo working and everything is connecting, then I can start to speed things up in shadow boxing.
> 
> This is an example of me shadow boxing.  I will work this technique out every day until I can go left and go right. The shaking of my arms is not habit.  I'm naturally stiff in the shoulders so I'm always trying to remind myself to relax more.  I often use shadow boxing to figure out things out and to figure out which combos can lead into other strikes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The speed that you do shadow boxing will vary depending on the focus of the training.



So you fight in slow motion?


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## JowGaWolf

User2021 said:


> So you fight in slow motion?


The speed that you do shadow boxing will vary depending on the focus of the training.  You can't fight fast if you don't know what comes after a jab.  So until you  get your combos down pat then you need to take time to learn the combo.  This is especially true for systems that have more than just a jab, hook, uppercut, cross.


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## User2021

Dirty Dog said:


> In case you missed it in Jr High physics, speed IS power.



Mass is a bigger variable than speed in generating power. Hence why heavyweights move slower but strike harder


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## dvcochran

User2021 said:


> Mass is a bigger variable than speed in generating power. Hence why heavyweights move slower but strike harder


In the realm of human speed this could be considered accurate. As a rule heavy weights are slower partly because it takes longer to get their heavier mass moving. So there are diminishing returns on both ends.

Over the course of an average fight this is compounded. That is why you see many heavyweight fights end with fewer punches being thrown while the light/middle weights are still swatting. 

Yes, you can play the "but it just takes one punch" argument but the percentages are not in your favor. 

In regards to physics: mass = density x volume (m=ρV). Density is a measure of mass per unit of volume, so the mass of an object can be determined by multiplying density by volume. 

mass = force ÷ acceleration (m=F/a). So speed (acceleration) plays a big part.


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## User2021

dvcochran said:


> In the realm of human speed this could be considered accurate. As a rule heavy weights are slower partly because it takes longer to get their heavier mass moving. So there are diminishing returns on both ends.
> 
> Over the course of an average fight this is compounded. That is why you see many heavyweight fights end with fewer punches being thrown while the light/middle weights are still swatting.
> 
> Yes, you can play the "but it just takes one punch" argument but the percentages are not in your favor.
> 
> In regards to physics: mass = density x volume (m=ρV). Density is a measure of mass per unit of volume, so the mass of an object can be determined by multiplying density by volume.
> 
> mass = force ÷ acceleration (m=F/a). So speed (acceleration) plays a big part.



Speed doesn't really play a big part. Efficient power is so much greater If you have a lot of mass travelling, in that it can be surprisingly slow. The same cannot be said of speedy motions with little mass behind them. They have very little power


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## Martial D

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> Yes, I understand that, but it can also help develop punching _power_. If you combine both then shadowboxing with weights is much more effective then without.


That's an old wives tale. There is no evidence to support that.


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## User2021

jobo said:


> yea, you can over do that and change the punch mechanics to much resisting the gravitational effects
> 
> the power of a punch comes primerily from speed and transfere of body weight, the actual strengh of the muscles is less important other than it helps develop speed
> 
> im not saying 5 kg is to much, just that there is a point quite low in weight terms where it can be



Strength of the muscle can contribute If you penetrate the target deeper (which requires muscling) . This creates a choking effect in which you stiffle the reaction of the target,and it can be more powerful than a snapping strike


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## User2021

Try hitting a heavy bag slower but deeper, and you will see that it is actually harder.

Or fast and deep with no retraction. Which ever way is harder than how you are taught to punch (for defensive reasons)


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## jobo

User2021 said:


> Strength of the muscle can contribute If you penetrate the target deeper (which requires muscling) . This creates a choking effect in which you stiffle the reaction of the target,and it can be more powerful than a snapping strike


how deep exactly are you " penetrating " it is a human body not a pillow!, I've punched a few people in my time, I've flatten a few noses, but never once have I penetrated,  I'd like to see 5hat done!


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## User2021

jobo said:


> how deep exactly are you " penetrating " it is a human body not a pillow!, I've punched a few people in my time, I've flatten a few noses, but never once have I penetrated,  I'd like to see 5hat done!



Try it on a heavy bag, you don't need to speculate. Dig as deep as you can, don't retract, and really tense.


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## User2021

@Dirty Dog you can't disagree with math. Mass is a bigger variable. Throwing the tiniest rock at record speeds will not hurt you anywhere near a truck hitting you at 90 mph.


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## User2021

If speed (it's actually acceleration not speed) equals power, Roy Jones jr would be the biggest puncher of all time.. He was not the hardest puncher in any division he fought.

Nor was mayweather.

Speed does contribute but very little in comparison to mass.

Mike Tyson had both speed and mass (leverage) which is why he is one of the hardest punchers.


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## Martial D

p = m • v.


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## jobo

User2021 said:


> Try it on a heavy bag, you don't need to speculate. Dig as deep as you can, don't retract, and really tense.


your not punching a heavy bag though are you? , not unless your attacked by one, which does seem unlikely. 

your pushing the bag, thats not a punch, it's a push with your fist, the bag will swing,  but it will do that if you just push normally


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## Dirty Dog

User2021 said:


> @Dirty Dog you can't disagree with math. Mass is a bigger variable. Throwing the tiniest rock at record speeds will not hurt you anywhere near a truck hitting you at 90 mph.



I guess bullets just bounce off you.

Kinetic energy in an impact is expressed as 
E=1/2M x V2

Mass. Velocity. I'm not disagreeing with math.


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## dvcochran

User2021 said:


> Try hitting a heavy bag slower but deeper, and you will see that it is actually harder.
> 
> Or fast and deep with no retraction. Which ever way is harder than how you are taught to punch (for defensive reasons)


You just made my argument. 
Hitting the bag at a higher speed/velocity results in deeper penetration or simply a harder impact. 
Make everything else equal and added speed results in a greater impact. 
Take something smaller and you can easily make it impact ‘harder’ by adding speed. By a factor of about three, depending on the amount of change in size/mass.


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## dvcochran

User2021 said:


> Speed doesn't really play a big part. Efficient power is so much greater If you have a lot of mass travelling, in that it can be surprisingly slow. The same cannot be said of speedy motions with little mass behind them. They have very little power


Tell that to a micro meteor.


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## drop bear

User2021 said:


> Try hitting a heavy bag slower but deeper, and you will see that it is actually harder.
> 
> Or fast and deep with no retraction. Which ever way is harder than how you are taught to punch (for defensive reasons)



This is not technically true. And a mistake people make throwing hard shots. So you get told to punch through the target. But then wind up wasting energy digging your fist in to people too much. And your punches have less effect.

There is a sweet spot where you let the strike bounce your hand back.






It is also the only way I have found to make body punching work.






Or even watching hard hitting light weights punch.


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## JowGaWolf

My whole view point of punching power is that it's not clear cut in martial arts because you aren't always looking for the most powerful punch it's not always the most powerful punch that does the most damage.

The video shows 2 things.  Slow speed punch causing damage.  The problem with this in terms of fighting is that me punching this slow in sparring and fighting would be ineffective. The only way these punches will reach the target in sparring or fighting is for me to add more speed. However, adding more speed creates more damaged.  There's no way these punches will be less damaging at a lower speed.  For those who think the video is fake. This is during a real class, listen to the reaction to my punches and kicks have on my partner.  Listen to him try to figure how why the punches and kicks are so painful.  Then watch him try to knife hand my leg in a effort to return the pain and to make me feel what he's feeling.  Then listen to what he says, when I tell him what's going on and what to do.  List to what he says when he hits me with the same technique.   Remember this is a conditioning class not a demo.  People who have seen me take punches in sparring have seen me get hit with faster and harder punches than these.






I could throw a heavy medicine ball in the same location at the same speed as those slow punches and it would do less damage.  Example more mass traveling a longer distance landing on a stomach.  So here you have a heavier mass  doing less damage than than the lighter mass of my punches.





When you understand the 2 videos, you will see that Power in terms of martial arts isn't as straight forward as the debate makes it appear.  What I'm seeing in the debate about Power is that it's an either or effect.   This would be correct.  I'm pretty sure the equation for power isn't  Power = speed or Power = Mass, or Power = Velocity.

Just something to think about


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## jobo

jobo said:


> your not punching a heavy bag though are you? , not unless your attacked by one, which does seem unlikely.
> 
> your pushing the bag, thats not a punch, it's a push with your fist, the bag will swing,  but it will do that if you just push normally





User2021 said:


> If speed (it's actually acceleration not speed) equals power, Roy Jones jr would be the biggest puncher of all time.. He was not the hardest puncher in any division he fought.
> 
> Nor was mayweather.
> 
> Speed does contribute but very little in comparison to mass.
> 
> Mike Tyson had both speed and mass (leverage) which is why he is one of the hardest punchers.





JowGaWolf said:


> My whole view point of punching power is that it's not clear cut in martial arts because you aren't always looking for the most powerful punch it's not always the most powerful punch that does the most damage.
> 
> The video shows 2 things.  Slow speed punch causing damage.  The problem with this in terms of fighting is that me punching this slow in sparring and fighting would be ineffective. The only way these punches will reach the target in sparring or fighting is for me to add more speed. However, adding more speed creates more damaged.  There's no way these punches will be less damaging at a lower speed.  For those who think the video is fake. This is during a real class, listen to the reaction to my punches and kicks have on my partner.  Listen to him try to figure how why the punches and kicks are so painful.  Then watch him try to knife hand my leg in a effort to return the pain and to make me feel what he's feeling.  Then listen to what he says, when I tell him what's going on and what to do.  List to what he says when he hits me with the same technique.   Remember this is a conditioning class not a demo.  People who have seen me take punches in sparring have seen me get hit with faster and harder punches than these.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could throw a heavy medicine ball in the same location at the same speed as those slow punches and it would do less damage.  Example more mass traveling a longer distance landing on a stomach.  So here you have a heavier mass  doing less damage than than the lighter mass of my punches.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you understand the 2 videos, you will see that Power in terms of martial arts isn't as straight forward as the debate makes it appear.  What I'm seeing in the debate about Power is that it's an either or effect.   This would be correct.  I'm pretty sure the equation for power isn't  Power = speed or Power = Mass, or Power = Velocity.
> 
> Just something to think about


no, power equals work done divided by time,

if the load is fixed then moving it from point a to point b it in half the time equals twice the power, that's exactly how they calculate ( brake)horse power, its how fast a horse can raise a set load over a set distance.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> So you get told to punch through the target. But then wind up wasting energy digging your fist in to people too much


I think people misunderstand this.  In the conditioning video I posted here, I was "punching through the instructor's stomach."  Through to me however doesn't mean trying to send my punch all the way through the body.  Punching through to me means more like "Punching in" or "Stabbing Punch"

*Punching through* would be like me punching your stomach and trying to make my fist reach your spine.
*Punching in* is like me trying to punch your organs (stab your organs) behind the stomach.  Not with my fist, but with my knuckle. 

Think of a knife stab.  if you stab someone you aren't trying to send the knife all the way through.  You just want to send it far enough to hit the organs and cause damage  I use this same technique on heavy bags.  What you see is that the bag doesn't move punch but the impact is deep enough to hold water 

1. I train punch through
2. I train punch in / punch stab

These are not an either or concept because some punches you must punch through while other types of punches you don't. One cannot use long fist techniques without punching through.  All of it is relative to the technique being used and they place a person is striking.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> thats exactly how they calculate horse power,


Do you calculate your punches in terms of "horsepower" ? if not then none of that matters


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Do you calculate your punches in terms of "horsepower" ? if not then none of that matters


i could , of course it matters, you gave an exhaustive list of all the thing power didn't equal, and strangely you were mostly right, however in a defined circumstances like a fixed load, like a fist, then power does equate to speed as if you half the time over the distance of travel( ie the speed), you double the power


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> i could ,


I could doesn't sound like  you do.

If you don't calculate your punching power or even view your punching power as "horsepower"  Then describing it as such does not matter in the context of things.  



jobo said:


> however in a defined circumstances like a fixed load, like a fist,


There is  not a fixed load for a fist in a fight.  There is a lot of variety.



jobo said:


> then power does equate to speed as if you half the time over the distance of travel( ie the speed), you double the power


So how much power does a humming bird have?  It fits your definition.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Slower animal should be less powerful than the faster one.   Not my argument but it's what is being said in the this discussion about power by you and others who are taking a "Either.. Or" stance that it's one thing and not another.  That one is more important than the other.


----------



## Dirty Dog

jobo said:


> no, power equals work done divided by time,
> 
> if the load is fixed then moving it from point a to point b it in half the time equals twice the power, that's exactly how they calculate ( brake)horse power, its how fast a horse can raise a set load over a set distance.



Actually, this is urban myth.
One horsepower equals 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute—that is, the power necessary to lift a total mass of 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute. 
Brake horsepower (or at the crank, for non-UK readers) only applies to engines. Engine HP is Torque x RPM / 5252. Which is why the HP and torque lines on every dyno sheet cross at an RPM of 5252.
No horse involved.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Dirty Dog said:


> Engine HP is Torque x RPM


Just for clarification RPM means Right Punch Movement right?


----------



## jobo

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, this is urban myth.
> One horsepower equals 33,000 foot-pounds of work per minute—that is, the power necessary to lift a total mass of 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute.
> Brake horsepower (or at the crank, for non-UK readers) only applies to engines. Engine HP is Torque x RPM / 5252. Which is why the HP and torque lines on every dyno sheet cross at an RPM of 5252.
> No horse involved.


no, it is based on horses, coz James Watt who invented the concept said it was when he invented the concept, and you cant really argue with him

its isnt what a horse can produce as peak power over a very short interval which is closer to 15 horse power, its what a horse can sustain over an extended period, a humans peak horse power is about 5, this of course is a British standard  pulling ( cart ) horse, not a pit pony or a race horse or a mustang which are somewhat under powered by comparison


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I could doesn't sound like  you do.
> 
> If you don't calculate your punching power or even view your punching power as "horsepower"  Then describing it as such does not matter in the context of things.
> 
> 
> There is  not a fixed load for a fist in a fight.  There is a lot of variety.
> 
> 
> So how much power does a humming bird have?  It fits your definition.


your either measuring your punch in lbs/foot or newton metes or joules or KW or horse power, there isnt any other units applicable

you can convert one to another if you want to as they are at  a fixed ratio a human is capable of about 5 horse power or about 3 kw( about 30 watts per KG of body weight) as peak energy production considerably less over a long period, which is why sprints are short time duration

humming birds produce 130 watts of energy per KG, thats 30% more than other birds and 4 times more than humans, proving beyond doubt that fast move means additional power, i can convert that to horse power if you really want


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> I could doesn't sound like  you do.
> 
> If you don't calculate your punching power or even view your punching power as "horsepower"  Then describing it as such does not matter in the context of things.
> 
> 
> There is  not a fixed load for a fist in a fight.  There is a lot of variety.
> 
> 
> So how much power does a humming bird have?  It fits your definition.


 there is a very fixed load in a punch, depending on what you term that load to be, its either your opponent, who is fixed in weight and composition, or the weight of your arm which is also so fixed

the Two variables are using the rest of your body to gain velocity and how much of your body weight you can transferee into the punch, which can be viewed as technique

a slower punch with more body weight may indeed have more energy, but not as much as the same weight transfer done faster  and there is a point where a slow punch with a lot of weight transfer actually become a push, its good for moving a load backwards but causes minimal damage

if we view  the technique of weight transfer as fixed and it is at least over the course of a fight, the only variable you have left is the speed of your fist

the punching through thing is really a mental trick to stop you decelerating before impact, just time it for contact three inches further away and that's a nose or a rib gone


----------



## dvcochran

This has always been the easiest way for me to remember it:

How much is 1 horsepower?

In the U.S., one horsepower is defined as a unit of power equal to 746 watts, nearly equivalent to the English gravitational unit of the same name that equals 550 foot-pounds of work per second. One horsepower is a unit of power that equals the work done in lifting *550 pounds* one foot in one second.

*Formula for calculations of Break horsepower is*
1.BHP = (Torque × RPM )/5252,where torque is lb -ft and n = revolution per min.

2.BHP = BP /33000,where BP (in watt ) = Torque×2π×RPM (RPM in min. ) Where torque in the formula of BP is in lb -ft


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> your either measuring your punch in lbs/foot or newton metes or joules or KW or horse power, there isnt any other units applicable
> 
> you can convert one to another if you want to as they are at  a fixed ratio a human is capable of about 5 horse power or about 3 kw( about 30 watts per KG of body weight) as peak energy production considerably less over a long period, which is why sprints are short time duration
> 
> humming birds produce 130 watts of energy per KG, thats 30% more than other birds and 4 times more than humans, proving beyond doubt that fast move means additional power, i can convert that to horse power if you really want


Like I said before it doesn't matter when it comes to Martial arts.
1. Do I want to have a quick jab?
2. Do I want the jab to distract or land hard?
3. Do I want to throw a single jab?
4. Do I want to use a jab to counter?
5. When punching without boxing gloves do I want land that jab on one knuckle or two knuckles?
6. Do I want the jab to start or end my combo?
7. Do I want the jab to set up a power shot?
8. Where do I want my power shot to land? Stomach? Ribs? guard? head?
9. Do I want the power shot to be close like a short hook to the body?  Or do I want the power shot to land like a long fist technique to the head?  or maybe I want the power shot to be a spinning back fist or an uppercut.
10. How do I want to drive power to my punches.  From the hips? from the waist? from a pivot? from a pushing off the rear leg with heel down? from stepping into the punch? or rising with the punch?  Do I want to put body mass behind the punch or momentum behind the punch? Or do I want to put both mass and speed?

After all of this has been determined and set forth.  No one asks how much horse power their punch has.  The only things they care about are.
1. Would my punch land
2. Would my punch cause damage
1. Did my punch land
2. Did my punch cause damage.

In competition and in a real fight, you can throw your best power punch miss, and get laid out with something that had less power than what you were throwing, all because you didn't see it coming.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Like I said before it doesn't matter when it comes to Martial arts.
> 1. Do I want to have a quick jab?
> 2. Do I want the jab to distract or land hard?
> 3. Do I want to throw a single jab?
> 4. Do I want to use a jab to counter?
> 5. When punching without boxing gloves do I want land that jab on one knuckle or two knuckles?
> 6. Do I want the jab to start or end my combo?
> 7. Do I want the jab to set up a power shot?
> 8. Where do I want my power shot to land? Stomach? Ribs? guard? head?
> 9. Do I want the power shot to be close like a short hook to the body?  Or do I want the power shot to land like a long fist technique to the head?  or maybe I want the power shot to be a spinning back fist or an uppercut.
> 10. How do I want to drive power to my punches.  From the hips? from the waist? from a pivot? from a pushing off the rear leg with heel down? from stepping into the punch? or rising with the punch?  Do I want to put body mass behind the punch or momentum behind the punch? Or do I want to put both mass and speed?
> 
> After all of this has been determined and set forth.  No one asks how much horse power their punch has.  The only things they care about are.
> 1. Would my punch land
> 2. Would my punch cause damage
> 1. Did my punch land
> 2. Did my punch cause damage.
> 
> In competition and in a real fight, you can throw your best power punch miss, and get laid out with something that had less power than what you were throwing, all because you didn't see it coming.


your the one who started talking about the power of punches, if that is measure its in watts or horse power, there is no other choice as a unit of power

a jab is dependent on two things 1) the weight of your arm, with or with out a boxing glove and 2) the speed you can generate in the distance, that's it. as you  cant decided to make your arm heavier at short notice, your left with the speed

 its also a happy coincidence, that the faster the jab travels the more likely it is to hit, so its win win

your jab should be snapping the head back if its gloved or coursing cuts if its bare and still snapping the head back, if that's the only measure available to you, if that not happening your not fast enough or you need to put some muscle on your arms or possibly both

throwing a bad jab that neither hits or hurts if it did, needs to be part of a clever strategy to lure the other guy into a false sense of security, other wise just hit him, you may  not get another chance


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> your the one who started talking about the power of punches,


Nope that conversation was already in motion long before I made my comments on it.



jobo said:


> a jab is dependent on two things 1) the weight of your arm, with or with out a boxing glove and 2) the speed you can generate in the distance, that's it. as you cant decided to make your arm heavier at short notice, your left with the speed


  That's only part of what goes into a jab.  Jab without moving your feet, without pivoting, without using the hips, without putting body weight behind the punch vs trying to depend on the weight of an arm.   If a person weights 125 and has a powerful punch, then I can tell you without doubt that it's not the weight of the arm making the difference.



jobo said:


> that the faster the jab travels the more likely it is to hit


I hit people with slow stuff all the time.  If you have a good set up then you don't have to rely on speed so much.  I'm not special either.  Boxers hit people with slow stuff all the time too.  They also hit people with fast shots.  The better I can set my opponent up the more likely I will be able to hit my opponent regardless of the speed of the punch.



jobo said:


> throwing a bad jab


I never said anything about bad jabs.  Bad jabs and slow jabs are 2 different things.

Here you can see Larry holmes throw jabs of various speeds and purposes.  Some fast some slow.  Just because the punch is slow doesn't mean it's bad.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Nope that conversation was already in motion long before I made my comments on it.
> 
> That's only part of what goes into a jab.  Jab without moving your feet, without pivoting, without using the hips, without putting body weight behind the punch vs trying to depend on the weight of an arm.   If a person weights 125 and has a powerful punch, then I can tell you without doubt that it's not the weight of the arm making the difference.
> 
> 
> I hit people with slow stuff all the time.  If you have a good set up then you don't have to rely on speed so much.  I'm not special either.  Boxers hit people with slow stuff all the time too.  They also hit people with fast shots.  The better I can set my opponent up the more likely I will be able to hit my opponent regardless of the speed of the punch.
> 
> 
> I never said anything about bad jabs.  Bad jabs and slow jabs are 2 different things.
> 
> Here you can see Larry holmes throw jabs of various speeds and purposes.  Some fast some slow.  Just because the punch is slow doesn't mean it's bad.


when your not fighting Larry Holmes or any other good class boxer a good jab is faster then most people can react to, even boxer have trouble with it, that makes a fast jab a free shot that will land every time, it SHOULD also cause damage, the last time i jabbed someone in anger it split his eye wide open (and he backed off fast), that the minimum to expect, you've just hit him with a lb weight attached to a heavier arm, thats some what heavier than a base ball bat, all you've got to do is propel it at sufficient speed

all your points can be summued as physics dont apply to me or my martial art

nb if your hitting people with slow punches your fighting slow people, which judging by your condition vid sounds about right, someone who is fast will have jabbed your 4 times whilst your getting there, thats both eyes closed, a flat nose and some dental work


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> when your not fighting Larry Holmes or any other good class boxer a good jab is faster then most people can react to, even boxer have trouble with it, that makes a fast jab a free shot that will land every time, it SHOULD also cause damage, the last time i jabbed someone in anger it split his eye wide open (and he backed off fast), that the minimum to expect, you've just hit him with a lb weight attached to a heavier arm, thats some what heavier than a base ball bat, all you've got to do is propel it at sufficient speed
> 
> all your points can be summued as physics dont apply to me or my martial art


I don't even know what you are talking about here.


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> nb if your hitting people with slow punches your fighting slow people, which judging by your condition vid sounds about right, someone who is fast will have jabbed your 4 times whilst your getting there, thats both eyes closed, a flat nose and some dental work


I fought fast people before as well.  Larry Holmes fought people who were fast and he hit them with slow jabs as well.


----------



## JowGaWolf

MMA clips where you can see some slow jabs land and I"m not talking about the slow motion part.  








jobo said:


> nb if your hitting people with slow punches your fighting slow people, which judging by your condition vid sounds


Problem here isn't the video.  The problem here is that you don't understand conditioning isn't fighting.

The reason I showed larry holmes video with him throwing slow jabs is because, some people like to try to personalize things  So instead about the reality. It turns personal about me eating 4 jabs and some dental work. 

Pawing Jabs


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> all your points can be summued as physics dont apply to me or my martial art


And all response to my comments about jab can be summed up as "You didn't calculate horsepower  of a punch." "Nor did you calculate the speed."



JowGaWolf said:


> After all of this has been determined and set forth. No one asks how much horse power their punch has. The only things they care about are.
> 1. Would my punch land
> 2. Would my punch cause damage
> 1. Did my punch land
> 2. Did my punch cause damage.



Your statement.


jobo said:


> it SHOULD also cause damage, the last time i jabbed someone in anger it split his eye wide open (and he backed off fast), that the minimum to expect,



Just what I told you that people care about 
1. Did my punch land
2. Did my punch cause damage.


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> MMA clips where you can see some slow jabs land and I"m not talking about the slow motion part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Problem here isn't the video.  The problem here is that you don't understand conditioning isn't fighting.
> 
> The reason I showed larry holmes video with him throwing slow jabs is because, some people like to try to personalize things  So instead about the reality. It turns personal about me eating 4 jabs and some dental work.
> 
> Pawing Jabs


the slow jabs in the mma vid are where its     in slow motion, perhaps they should put a warning up, not real speed


----------



## JowGaWolf

jobo said:


> the slow jabs in the mma vid are where its     in slow motion, perhaps they should put a warning up, not real speed


 Not in slow motion.  Reality doesn't change


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> MMA clips where you can see some slow jabs land and I"m not talking about the slow motion part.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Problem here isn't the video.  The problem here is that you don't understand conditioning isn't fighting.
> 
> The reason I showed larry holmes video with him throwing slow jabs is because, some people like to try to personalize things  So instead about the reality. It turns personal about me eating 4 jabs and some dental work.
> 
> Pawing Jabs


----------



## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> Not in slow motion.  Reality doesn't change


thats 10 mins long, i made the mistake of watching the last one to find it didnt show what you said, so you just post another that may or may not, but probably wont support you anyway

state clearly what you think it proves and the EXACT time stamp


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> thats 10 mins long, i made the mistake of watching the last one to find it didnt show what you said, so you just post another that may or may not, but probably wont support you anyway
> 
> state clearly what you think it proves and the EXACT time stamp



There are certain factors that make a jab work. It needs to be at the right place and time. It needs to be done without telegraphing and it needs to be fast. 

The issue you have is if you go too fast on a jab you can sometimes jab to the detriment of those first two factors. 

Making the punch less likely to hit than a slower but better executed jab. 

So there are conditions where slower is better.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> There are certain factors that make a jab work. It needs to be at the right place and time. It needs to be done without telegraphing and it needs to be fast.
> 
> The issue you have is if you go too fast on a jab you can sometimes jab to the detriment of those first two factors.
> 
> Making the punch less likely to hit than a slower but better executed jab.
> 
> So there are conditions where slower is better.


well clearly it needs to be well executed and it needs to hit them, well executed that miss are a problem, hits that don't carry energy are a waste of time

so can we agree that the best jab is a well executed fast jab that hits, in preference to a well executed slow jab that land, both of which are considerably better than a miss as you didn't co ordinate it properly or them moving as your jab was to slow


----------



## Oily Dragon

dvcochran said:


> Tell that to a micro meteor.



Yes, it's true a speck of dust with enough energy can punch through steel, just ask NASA.

With respect to punching, accelerating the most mass in the shortest amount of time is the breadwinner.  Adding weights while training might be good for muscles and calorie burns but you're not going to be throwing that steel around in a real fight.  Right? 

I'm guessing racing trains is similar, especially if they're made to collide.


----------



## dvcochran

Oily Dragon said:


> Yes, it's true a speck of dust with enough energy can punch through steel, just ask NASA.
> 
> With respect to punching, accelerating the most mass in the shortest amount of time is the breadwinner.  Adding weights while training might be good for muscles and calorie burns but you're not going to be throwing that steel around in a real fight.  Right?
> 
> I'm guessing racing trains is similar, especially if they're made to collide.


I do Not recommend kicking with weights. Really hard on the knees. I cannot say for sure but I would think one could say the same for  punching.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> Like I said before it doesn't matter when it comes to Martial arts.
> 1. Do I want to have a quick jab?
> 2. Do I want the jab to distract or land hard?
> 3. Do I want to throw a single jab?
> 4. Do I want to use a jab to counter?
> 5. When punching without boxing gloves do I want land that jab on one knuckle or two knuckles?
> 6. Do I want the jab to start or end my combo?
> 7. Do I want the jab to set up a power shot?
> 8. Where do I want my power shot to land? Stomach? Ribs? guard? head?
> 9. Do I want the power shot to be close like a short hook to the body?  Or do I want the power shot to land like a long fist technique to the head?  or maybe I want the power shot to be a spinning back fist or an uppercut.
> 10. How do I want to drive power to my punches.  From the hips? from the waist? from a pivot? from a pushing off the rear leg with heel down? from stepping into the punch? or rising with the punch?  Do I want to put body mass behind the punch or momentum behind the punch? Or do I want to put both mass and speed?
> 
> After all of this has been determined and set forth.  No one asks how much horse power their punch has.  The only things they care about are.
> 1. Would my punch land
> 2. Would my punch cause damage
> 1. Did my punch land
> 2. Did my punch cause damage.
> 
> In competition and in a real fight, you can throw your best power punch miss, and get laid out with something that had less power than what you were throwing, all because you didn't see it coming.


All that is true IMHO but not really in the context of punching for power. Yes, jabs can be powerful but the ratio of knockouts from jabs versus reverse punches is Very low. 
Your list sounds like Segway to the power punch.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> And all response to my comments about jab can be summed up as "You didn't calculate horsepower  of a punch." "Nor did you calculate the speed."
> 
> 
> 
> Your statement.
> 
> 
> Just what I told you that people care about
> 1. Did my punch land
> 2. Did my punch cause damage.


you could weigh your arm and use an accelerometer on a bag. 
It would not be super accurate but could be used for a baseline.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> you could weigh your arm and use an accelerometer on a bag.
> It would not be super accurate but could be used for a baseline.


and what would I do with that baseline?


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> and what would I do with that baseline?


Compare it to your own work to see measurable improvement. 
With the accelerometer you could also measure speed.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> I do Not recommend kicking with weights. Really hard on the knees. I cannot say for sure but I would think one could say the same for  punching.


I use weights when punching but it doesn't affect punching power.  Punching with weights serve a different purpose.  There are also different ways to weight a punch as well.  You can hold weights in your hand very small weight that isn't going to damage joints for the same reason that you wouldn't want to kick with weights on.

Don't use the dumbbells.  Either use heavier gloves or weighted gloves.  Because of the type of martial arts that I do I would most likely use weighted gloves. It won't increase your power but it will help with speed and muscle endurance. You still have to be careful because it's weight that you are accelerating and extra weight that your joints have to stop. I wouldn't go full speed with it until some join conditioning is done or slowly work up to the maximum weight that the gloves support.

My personal preference and what I actually use are the old fashioned kung fu rings which shifts the weight along the arms which gives you the ability to work with heavier weight  without damaging joints.  There are some other conditioning benefits that come with, so you'll get the most out of them. Downside is that they are expensive and they crash upon your bones so you'll have shorter and fewer training times with these weights as your bone and hands and arms heal from the damage that it gets.  Good news, if you stop as soon as you fell bruises, the shorter your healing period will be and over all your arms will become stronger physically and your punches will be faster.   It still won't affect power because driving power to a punch is a multiple factor issue that involves more than just the arms.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Compare it to your own work to see measurable improvement.
> With the accelerometer you could also measure speed.


That wouldn't help me because I would still need to do all of that in the context of sparring / fighting / getting hit/ moving around/ taking damage / getting tired.   DK Yoo teaches self-defense. He's quick and has the fastest punches and strikes that I've every seen.   But that's about it. 

In my training I will train speed but feel no need to measure speed because I don't rely on speed to always be the deciding factor.  I have spared against faster people and I was above to overcome their advantage in speed with timing, misdirection, countering, and cutting off.  

Think of it like sprinting.  You will only be so fast no matter what the time the stop watch gives you after running 100 yards.  The older you get, the slower that time will become.  Punching is same way.  So when your speed gets slower, then what do you do? keep trying to get get faster than your max speed that you had when you were 20?  or do you use other methods to compensate for the speed lost.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> That wouldn't help me because I would still need to do all of that in the context of sparring / fighting / getting hit/ moving around/ taking damage / getting tired.   DK Yoo teaches self-defense. He's quick and has the fastest punches and strikes that I've every seen.   But that's about it.
> 
> In my training I will train speed but feel no need to measure speed because I don't rely on speed to always be the deciding factor.  I have spared against faster people and I was above to overcome their advantage in speed with timing, misdirection, countering, and cutting off.
> 
> Think of it like sprinting.  You will only be so fast no matter what the time the stop watch gives you after running 100 yards.  The older you get, the slower that time will become.  Punching is same way.  So when your speed gets slower, then what do you do? keep trying to get get faster than your max speed that you had when you were 20?  or do you use other methods to compensate for the speed lost.


The same thing can be said about power in regards to aging. 
Power is a somewhat subjective term in regards to punching. As others have mentioned there are equations to calculate (horse)power but they use known variables. This can easily change from person. But in general, speed, mass, and hardness would have to be considered. I feel the latter is a big variance person to person. 
I suppose it could be plugged into an equation if you had some kind of known range for ‘punch hardness’. 
Regardless, they are all likely to change as we age.


----------



## drop bear

jobo said:


> well clearly it needs to be well executed and it needs to hit them, well executed that miss are a problem, hits that don't carry energy are a waste of time
> 
> so can we agree that the best jab is a well executed fast jab that hits, in preference to a well executed slow jab that land, both of which are considerably better than a miss as you didn't co ordinate it properly or them moving as your jab was to slow



Not if you are trying to get people to jab effectively.

Because they will mess it up. 

It is very common.


----------



## jobo

drop bear said:


> Not if you are trying to get people to jab effectively.
> 
> Because they will mess it up.
> 
> It is very common.


SO........ an  EFFECTIVE fast jab isnt effective as its not undertaken effectively, that makes sense


----------



## jobo

dvcochran said:


> The same thing can be said about power in regards to aging.
> Power is a somewhat subjective term in regards to punching. As others have mentioned there are equations to calculate (horse)power but they use known variables. This can easily change from person. But in general, speed, mass, and hardness would have to be considered. I feel the latter is a big variance person to person.
> I suppose it could be plugged into an equation if you had some kind of known range for ‘punch hardness’.
> Regardless, they are all likely to change as we age.


the        problem with ' power' as regards to punching, is it isnt the best unit to measure or describe it, kinetic energy is expressed in joules is, however this obsession with ''power'' an expression of punching effectiveness continues, people want to use the term haphazardly and then get cross if you point out their error or god forbid ask what units they are measuring in


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## jobo

JowGaWolf said:


> That wouldn't help me because I would still need to do all of that in the context of sparring / fighting / getting hit/ moving around/ taking damage / getting tired.   DK Yoo teaches self-defense. He's quick and has the fastest punches and strikes that I've every seen.   But that's about it.
> 
> In my training I will train speed but feel no need to measure speed because I don't rely on speed to always be the deciding factor.  I have spared against faster people and I was above to overcome their advantage in speed with timing, misdirection, countering, and cutting off.
> 
> Think of it like sprinting.  You will only be so fast no matter what the time the stop watch gives you after running 100 yards.  The older you get, the slower that time will become.  Punching is same way.  So when your speed gets slower, then what do you do? keep trying to get get faster than your max speed that you had when you were 20?  or do you use other methods to compensate for the speed lost.


its primarily the degeneration of the CNS that slows you as you get older, all other things being equal, of course as soon as you stop trying to move fast that degeneration gathers pace

if that matter rather depends, in top class sport it matters greatly, loose a 10th of a second off your reaction speed and you start looking very slow in comparison with younger faster athletes and you cant hit the fast ball or dodge the punch, its fine margins indeed

for normal mortals its far less important unless your up against the fore mention top class athletes

against most folk, a jab that arrives in less than half a second is going to be faster than their reaction (and movement) time  against Tyson furry your punching air

that's very achievable, up to a ripe old age, if you actually practice fast movement and again, in case you missed it the last 20 times, technique being equal a faster jab carries significantly more energy coz science


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> SO........ an  EFFECTIVE fast jab isnt effective as its not undertaken effectively, that makes sense



Yeah. So an effective jab is a bit slower than an ineffective one generally because you are more likely to land it if you don't telegraph it.

That is also why you don't throw them as hard as you can generally.

What you are describing is a beginners jab.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Yeah. So an effective jab is a bit slower than an ineffective one generally because you are more likely to land it if you don't telegraph it.
> 
> That is also why you don't throw them as hard as you can generally.
> 
> What you are describing is a beginners jab.


why does moving your hand faster mean its telegraphed and why does that matter if its faster than they can react


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> why does moving your hand faster mean its telegraphed and why does that matter if its faster than they can react



Because you generally need to power the punch with your body to get it going fast. And that body movement becomes a tell. 

Faster than they can react is situational.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Because you generally need to power the punch with your body to get it going fast. And that body movement becomes a tell.
> 
> Faster than they can react is situational.


if your loading the body up, it's a straight left not a jab, its using the shoulder and the triceps,  neither of which need loading or are in the body


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> if your loading the body up, it's a straight left not a jab, its using the shoulder and the triceps,  neither of which need loading or are in the body



Not really.

Here is triple g loading jabs.


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## jobo

drop bear said:


> Not really.
> 
> Here is triple g loading jabs.


straight lefts, you cant say loading is bad and then post a vid of someone loading to say its correct.

the only person saying that a jab is the person who has titled the vid

watch Tf jab, all speed and no body loading, in fact he will take you head off going backwards, just with arm speed,

the issue is what you've identified and then change your mind about, body loading delivers more energy at the exspenxe of speed, that doesnt matter if your triple g, coz he is still incredibly fast, for others it matters, if your not fast enough, the target moves


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## drop bear

jobo said:


> straight lefts, you cant say loading is bad and then post a vid of someone loading to say its correct.
> 
> the only person saying that a jab is the person who has titled the vid
> 
> watch Tf jab, all speed and no body loading, in fact he will take you head off going backwards, just with arm speed,
> 
> the issue is what you've identified and then change your mind about, body loading delivers more energy at the exspenxe of speed, that doesnt matter if your triple g, coz he is still incredibly fast, for others it matters, if your not fast enough, the target moves



Not really. The only person saying it is a straight left is you. 

Loaded is not always better. Faster is not always better. It depends what you want to do. 

If you have a constant loaded jab you will get picked off eventually. Which is what happens when beginners get told faster is better.


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