# Sucessful use of 3-sectional staff in full-contact sparring



## Tony Dismukes (Jun 20, 2017)

Unlike most of the Dog Brothers, Thomas Holtmann (Gong Fu Dog) learned his weapons skills from CMA (specifically Seven Star Praying Mantis) rather than FMA.

This is the first time I've seen someone demonstrate genuine fighting skill (as opposed to performance skill) with the 3SS. Pretty cool.

He's also a BJJ black belt and his approach to grappling during stick-fighting seems to work well with his approach to the 3SS.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Unlike most of the Dog Brothers, Thomas Holtmann (Gong Fu Dog) learned his weapons skills from CMA (specifically Seven Star Praying Mantis) rather than FMA.
> 
> This is the first time I've seen someone demonstrate genuine fighting skill (as opposed to performance skill) with the 3SS. Pretty cool.
> 
> He's also a BJJ black belt and his approach to grappling during stick-fighting seems to work well with his approach to the 3SS.




Good to see someone pressure testing that particular weapon, so kudos to him for doing it!  Having said that, there was only one brief moment where it was used to any effect, and in none of the clips shown, did it really seem to have much of an impact on the outcome of the fight.  Pretty much all of the fights were decided by abilities on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 20, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Good to see someone pressure testing that particular weapon, so kudos to him for doing it!  Having said that, there was only one brief moment where it was used to any effect, and in none of the clips shown, did it really seem to have much of an impact on the outcome of the fight.  Pretty much all of the fights were decided by abilities on the ground.


Agreed, though the same can be said of the other weapons that showed up. His ability to control the situation appears to surpass the effect of the weapons in each case.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed, though the same can be said of the other weapons that showed up. His ability to control the situation appears to surpass the effect of the weapons in each case.



Agreed, though there are a bunch of Dog Brothers videos demonstrating the use of single and double baston with great effectiveness, so that is well established at this point.  Three-sectional-staff?  Not so much.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 20, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Good to see someone pressure testing that particular weapon, so kudos to him for doing it!  Having said that, there was only one brief moment where it was used to any effect, and in none of the clips shown, did it really seem to have much of an impact on the outcome of the fight.  Pretty much all of the fights were decided by abilities on the ground.


Couple of thoughts ...

The threat of the 3SS's long-range attack seems to encourage his opponents to charge into close range where he could use his grappling.

When he did reach grappling range, he frequently used the 3SS as a grappling tool. At one point it looks like he was able to force his opponent to submit with a standing choke using the 3SS.

I'm certainly not advocating for the 3SS as any sort of ideal weapon. Its historical rarity compared to the world-wide prevalence of swords, spears, clubs, staves, maces, hammers, knives, and polearms is evidence enough that it's not the best tool out there. Still, it's cool to see evidence that it _can_ be an effective weapon in the right hands.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 20, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> Agreed, though there are a bunch of Dog Brothers videos demonstrating the use of single and double baston with great effectiveness, so that is well established at this point.  Three-sectional-staff?  Not so much.


I'm mostly wondering if his ability to control makes it possible for him to use pretty much any weapon that gives him a bit of defense against the other weapon, and maybe some distance control.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Couple of thoughts ...
> 
> The threat of the 3SS's long-range attack seems to encourage his opponents to charge into close range where he could use his grappling.
> 
> ...


I had trouble following where the 3SS was used in some of those. All those arms and sticks tangled up, I lost track of it, and whether it was just there or was involved in the grappling. I did see that one you're referring to, but in others I though he might be using it during grappling, but couldn't really tell.

As for evidence of its effectiveness, it was clearly demonstrated in Raiders of the Lost Ark, no?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Couple of thoughts ...
> 
> The threat of the 3SS's long-range attack seems to encourage his opponents to charge into close range where he could use his grappling.
> 
> ...


I agree, it is interesting to see.  One point that should not be overlooked is that if these fellows were not wearing protective gear (armor), then the melee might not have reached grappling range.  If those long range shots had landed on unprotected body parts the combat might have ended there.  It's got some good potential as a grappling tool though, that is apparent.

I don't know the history of the three-section staff, but it strikes me as something of an improvised weapon that might have been developed by the peasantry, and not something for the battlefield where armor would be more prevalent and where one might not have the room to swing it without hitting comrades.

Another thought is that these weapons today tend to be made from wax wood, which is good stuff but kind of on the light side.  If the staff was made from hickory or walnut or something heavier with more thought to being a useful weapon, then landing those blows could have a more significant effect.  Wax wood is legit for some purposes and it's flexibility is useful for staffs and spears, but for something like this I would make it from something heavier if I thought I might actually need to use it to save my life.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I had trouble following where the 3SS was used in some of those. All those arms and sticks tangled up, I lost track of it, and whether it was just there or was involved in the grappling. I did see that one you're referring to, but in others I though he might be using it during grappling, but couldn't really tell.
> 
> As for evidence of its effectiveness, it was clearly demonstrated in Raiders of the Lost Ark, no?


I don't recall seeing it in any Indiana Jones films.  Whip, yes.  Three section staff, no.  Let me know where, if I am simply forgetting.


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## Charlemagne (Jun 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I had trouble following where the 3SS was used in some of those. All those arms and sticks tangled up, I lost track of it, and whether it was just there or was involved in the grappling. I did see that one you're referring to, but in others I though he might be using it during grappling, but couldn't really tell.



Some of that being used in grappling was just a stick.  Other times, it was just being used _as_ a stick (only one section being used).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 20, 2017)

One must always take into account that training tools made out of rattan are not really combative weapons.  Rattan is light, forgiving, does not shatter but instead splinters while hard wood really breaks things quickly.  Many people here would easily take a rattan shot to anywhere but the head and be fine.  The same cannot be said for taking a shot with a common North America wood like hickory or Filipino Kamagong or Japanese White Oak.  So while I love to spar with rattan myself one has to understand that any one of those shots with a hardwood is probably breaking bones.  Which means in the end there simply would not be as much grappling or someone trying to close and eating a shot.  That person more than likely would be broken, knocked out or worse!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Years ago when I was training a lot of capoeira, we also did maculele which is a stick and machete dance that likely had martial origins.  It involves a lot of clashing the sticks or machetes together with the other players.  One day I brought a pair of sticks that I had cut down from a hickory axe handle, while everyone else was using lighter dowels or just sticks.  Very quickly I was destroying everybody's sticks, they were breaking and splintering, which is not the point of maculele.

But my point is, yeah that stuff can be very destructive.  You don't want to get hit by it.  Fight is over.


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## Jin Gang (Jun 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I agree, it is interesting to see.  One point that should not be overlooked is that if these fellows were not wearing protective gear (armor), then the melee might not have reached grappling range.  If those long range shots had landed on unprotected body parts the combat might have ended there.  It's got some good potential as a grappling tool though, that is apparent.
> 
> I don't know the history of the three-section staff, but it strikes me as something of an improvised weapon that might have been developed by the peasantry, and not something for the battlefield where armor would be more prevalent and where one might not have the room to swing it without hitting comrades.
> 
> Another thought is that these weapons today tend to be made from wax wood, which is good stuff but kind of on the light side.  If the staff was made from hickory or walnut or something heavier with more thought to being a useful weapon, then landing those blows could have a more significant effect.  Wax wood is legit for some purposes and it's flexibility is useful for staffs and spears, but for something like this I would make it from something heavier if I thought I might actually need to use it to save my life.



I don't know, accidentally whacking yourself in the head with a wax wood 3SS makes it feel pretty f-ing hard.  They can be rather heavy, and despite the flexibility the mass does make a difference.  I imagine a full-swing, full extension whack in the head with one would be pretty debiliatating.  Of course, harder/heavier woods would be even worse.

I agree that this isn't a battlefield weapon - one legend is that it was an improvised weapon which originated with someone's broken weapon on the battlefield, perhaps a normal long-handled flail or a spear or staff, who then thought "hey, that could be a pretty cool weapon if I did it right".  

I also think sparring like this doesn't really display or reveal how effective these weapons could be.  It is impossible to truly practice at full force with weapons, for obvious reasons.  So what this shows us is whether or not someone could get in a hit with their weapon before the opponent closes with them.  What the effects of that hit might be, we can only guess.  But the sparring match then moves on to what happens if your hit was off target or you missed, and now have to get into close fighting.  I also note that in these videos, nobody makes any attempts to stay at range and get in more hits with their weapons before they jump into grappling. 

So the best thing you can do is make sure you also drill with the weapon and practice hitting targets with it at full force with different techniques, so if you ever did have to use it, your first hit might be effective and avoid the close-fighting altogether.  Practice fighting can never tell you that, because you don't want to risk incapacitating your friends and partners.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> One point that should not be overlooked is that if these fellows were not wearing protective gear (armor), then the melee might not have reached grappling range. If those long range shots had landed on unprotected body parts the combat might have ended there.



Maybe. The Dog Brothers don't use much in the way of protective gear - fencing mask, hockey gloves, sometimes knee pads. You can still get injured or knocked out with a good shot.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> One must always take into account that training tools made out of rattan are not really combative weapons.  Rattan is light, forgiving, does not shatter but instead splinters while hard wood really breaks things quickly.  Many people here would easily take a rattan shot to anywhere but the head and be fine.  The same cannot be said for taking a shot with a common North America wood like hickory or Filipino Kamagong or Japanese White Oak.  So while I love to spar with rattan myself one has to understand that any one of those shots with a hardwood is probably breaking bones.  Which means in the end there simply would not be as much grappling or someone trying to close and eating a shot.  That person more than likely would be broken, knocked out or worse!



True, but it's worth noting that the Dog Brothers tend to use thicker, heavier rattan sticks than most FMA practitioners.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Jin Gang said:


> I don't know, accidentally whacking yourself in the head with a wax wood 3SS makes it feel pretty f-ing hard.  They can be rather heavy, and despite the flexibility the mass does make a difference.  I imagine a full-swing, full extension whack in the head with one would be pretty debiliatating.  Of course, harder/heavier woods would be even worse.
> 
> I agree that this isn't a battlefield weapon - one legend is that it was an improvised weapon which originated with someone's broken weapon on the battlefield, perhaps a normal long-handled flail or a spear or staff, who then thought "hey, that could be a pretty cool weapon if I did it right".
> 
> ...


Agreed on all points, and getting whacked with a thick piece of wax wood is no picnic for sure.  That can be destructive as well, i never meant to imply otherwise.  But something like hickory would be more so, and probably last longer too.  Wax wood begins to deteriorate and splinter when it is beat up a lot.  But other woods like hickory are heavier too, so you've gotta train with it to build the strength for it, or you will be slow.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe. The Dog Brothers don't use much in the way of protective gear - fencing mask, hockey gloves, sometimes knee pads. You can still get injured or knocked out with a good shot.
> 
> 
> 
> True, but it's worth noting that the Dog Brothers tend to use thicker, heavier rattan sticks than most FMA practitioners.


Sure, and I appreciate their approach.  But for practical purposes, there are limits on this.  This has the potential to be outright deadly, so precautions need to be taken.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 20, 2017)

Jin Gang said:


> I also think sparring like this doesn't really display or reveal how effective these weapons could be. It is impossible to truly practice at full force with weapons, for obvious reasons.


These matches at the Dog Brothers gatherings are full contact,

The very first DB instructional video was concerned just with power hitting. To demonstrate the need for this, they showed footage of matches with one of their members who was a former pro football player. His approach was to charge in behind a roof block, tackle his opponent to the ground, and start smashing  his downed opponent with his stick. The narrator explained that unless you can hit hard enough to discourage an opponent like this from charging in, you need to take a break from practicing fancy combinations and just go back to drilling a basic number 1 shot with power.


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## Blindside (Jun 20, 2017)

As a result of Gong-fu Dog bringing in the 3 section staff I have seen several others try it out in Gatherings.  Uniformly they pretty muched sucked.   It shows the difficulty of the weapon and how much skill he brings to the table.


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## Blindside (Jun 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, and I appreciate their approach.  But for practical purposes, there are limits on this.  This has the potential to be outright deadly, so precautions need to be taken.



The precautions are your skill on defense and that after hitting you has hard as he can you opponent isn't going to follow up with repeated head shots.  Yes rattan is used (usually) and yes there are all kinds of agreements in place depending on the weapons.  And there is plenty of control depending on the weapon.  The DBs do push the safety envelope, that is part of the lesson.


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## Blindside (Jun 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe. The Dog Brothers don't use much in the way of protective gear - fencing mask, hockey gloves, sometimes knee pads. You can still get injured or knocked out with a good shot.



Even the hockey gloves tend to go away, among the more experienced fighters in the tribe there is an active encouragement toward lighter gloves.  Several of the better guys just use leather gloves or batting gloves or something similar.  And several of those better guys are are using what are essentially antique fencing masks that provide almost zero protection from impact.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 20, 2017)

Blindside said:


> The DBs do push the safety envelope, that is part of the lesson.


For those who might be skeptical of this, skip to around the 2m20sec mark...


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## Blindside (Jun 20, 2017)

Another interview with Gong-Fu Dog
Seven Star Praying Mantis with Dog Brother Thomas Holtmann (part 1) - Monkey Steals Peach


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Blindside said:


> The precautions are your skill on defense and that after hitting you has hard as he can you opponent isn't going to follow up with repeated head shots.  Yes rattan is used (usually) and yes there are all kinds of agreements in place depending on the weapons.  And there is plenty of control depending on the weapon.  The DBs do push the safety envelope, that is part of the lesson.


Sure, Like I said, there are limits.  As it should be.  If they start sending all their training partners to the ER or the morgue with split skulls, well that isn't a sustainable training plan.

The fact that they are not sending people to the ER or the morgue with split skulls tells me there are limits.  

As there should be.


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## Jin Gang (Jun 20, 2017)

My point was exactly that you need to train to deliver stopping power with your weapon in every strike, in the first strike.  You can't do that against live people.  You do it on bags or targets or trees.  You practice combinations not because you necessarily expect to deliver five hits in a row on somebody charging you, but so that you know how to handle the weapon like it's a part of your body, recover from your first strike and deliver more if the opportunity presents itself.  This is especially necessary for jointed/flexible weapon. 

I get what the utility of dog brothers-style training is for fighting, I just think it doesn't/can't show us the real, full effect of most weapons on people.  I'm not saying it is pointless to do it, but it's only one component of weapon training, especially weapons more complex than a stick.  So I don't think these videos show us a lot regarding how effective or ineffective a three-section staff could be.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, Like I said, there are limits.  As it should be.  If they start sending all their training partners to the ER or the morgue with split skulls, well that isn't a sustainable training plan.
> 
> The fact that they are not sending people to the ER or the morgue with split skulls tells me there are limits.
> 
> As there should be.


I just wanted to clarify my position here...which is a weird thought actually because I don't mean to be taking a position, this shouldn't, in my mind, be an argument...but anyway, to clarify what I mean, I don't intend my comments in any way to be derogatory to what the dog brothers are doing.  It's not my cup of tea, I'm not interested in taking that kind of beating and I don't feel that my training suffers for it in any way that matters.  But at any rate, I was simply pointing out that a real battle with the weapon could look very different if the combatants were not wearing protective gear, and if the weapon were made from a denser wood.  But then, someone would be maimed or killed.

I felt it was, in the context of the discussion, a reasonable observation. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't recall seeing it in any Indiana Jones films.  Whip, yes.  Three section staff, no.  Let me know where, if I am simply forgetting.


The hanger used by the bad guy in the tent, when he greets Marion.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2017)

He seems to be getting away with a lot in the grappling. I assume he is a lot better than the guys he is fighting there.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The hanger used by the bad guy in the tent, when he greets Marion.


Oh damn, you are right.  Did he actually use it as a weapon or restraint tool?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 20, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh damn, you are right.  Did he actually use it as a weapon or restraint tool?


No, but it was a very effective hanger.


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## Blindside (Jun 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> He seems to be getting away with a lot in the grappling. I assume he is a lot better than the guys he is fighting there.



I am sure that he is, there are simply not many of his level of grapplers in DBs which isn't really surprising.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 20, 2017)

Hey Tony, I spar regularly with fencing masks, very lite gloves, elbow and knee pads and have been doing so for thirty years or so.  The difference is a lot of the charging in and going to grappling just won't happen with a heavy hard wood stick or a blade.  With the heavy hard wood stick if you hit some thing it is probably getting broken.  I can easily demonstrate this by showing you that when hitting a wrist or even a thigh with a rattan stick you probably can still continue to function.  If I hit your wrist with a hardwood stick it is broken and will no longer function and similarly for a knee.  Heck I guarantee that you can take a thigh shot with a rattan stick while you wouldn't even consider taking one with a hard wood stick.  There are limits to what the body can take.  Rattan and the cheaper wax wood which most people have are great for training as they tolerate people's mistakes.  Hard wood usually doesn't.  Rattan is for training, hard wood and blade for combat.  We should never confuse the too!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 20, 2017)

Yeah, a stick or a club or a staff wasn't a friendlier or less deadly weapon just because it isn't sharp.  If it was intended for combat then it was made from a dense and tough wood and was meant to break and smash and mangle bones, and kill.  For most people, I would bet on a staff guy to win over a sword guy, all other things being equal.  A sword guy needs to have clearly superior skill to win that encounter.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2017)

Blindside said:


> I am sure that he is, there are simply not many of his level of grapplers in DBs which isn't really surprising.



See I would have thought if there was ever going to be a conceptual arms race. It would be dog brothers.

I also would have thought jumping guard in a weapons fight would be suicide.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Tony, I spar regularly with fencing masks, very lite gloves, elbow and knee pads and have been doing so for thirty years or so.  The difference is a lot of the charging in and going to grappling just won't happen with a heavy hard wood stick or a blade.  With the heavy hard wood stick if you hit some thing it is probably getting broken.  I can easily demonstrate this by showing you that when hitting a wrist or even a thigh with a rattan stick you probably can still continue to function.  If I hit your wrist with a hardwood stick it is broken and will no longer function and similarly for a knee.  Heck I guarantee that you can take a thigh shot with a rattan stick while you wouldn't even consider taking one with a hard wood stick.  There are limits to what the body can take.  Rattan and the cheaper wax wood which most people have are great for training as they tolerate people's mistakes.  Hard wood usually doesn't.  Rattan is for training, hard wood and blade for combat.  We should never confuse the too!



Do you think the method essentially changes though?

If you break my arm with a stick. I think I would try to rush anyway.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do you think the method essentially changes though?
> 
> If you break my arm with a stick. I think I would try to rush anyway.


Yeah. Knowing your arm isn't likely to get broken allows for bolder moves, though.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do you think the method essentially changes though?
> 
> If you break my arm with a stick. I think I would try to rush anyway.


*
You might and would probably die.*  Hard to function well with a non-functioning arm/hand but not impossible you would still have a small chance.  You might also freeze in pain and the beat down begins.  However it is bad, particularly since you are then more than likely disarmed, one armed facing an individual with a hard wood stick.  Not good odds.  Yet, closing might also be the best option.  Provided you could not run!  There are no absolutes!

The other thing is how many times in full contact sparring with rattan has someone been hit in the leg/knee and just walked through it.  Walked through a head shot.  Walked through a wrist/arm strike.  With a hard wood stick your probably going down or your broken.  Now you can't close.  Your just stuck and getting bludgeoned.

I watched a rattan fight awhile back where the guy  was willing to just roof block and run in and try to grapple.  The rattan stick was not really part of his attack plan.  He did close and grappling began.  However, he took a shot to his arm and head on the way in.  With a hard wood stick he would have been toast with a bashed in head.  With a blade he had a cut arm and his head was cut deep.  What works with rattan doesn't always work with hard wood sticks or blades. 

*I personally love sparring full contact with rattan and fencing masks*.  It is fun, some times painful.  It is however just a training tool and not to be taken as real combat!


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *You might and would probably die.*  Hard to function well with a non-functioning arm/hand but not impossible you would still have a small chance.  You might also freeze in pain and the beat down begins.  However it is bad, particularly since you are then more than likely disarmed, one armed facing an individual with a hard wood stick.  Not good odds.  Yet, closing might also be the best option.  Provided you could not run!  There are no absolutes!
> 
> The other thing is how many times in full contact sparring with rattan has someone been hit in the leg/knee and just walked through it.  Walked through a head shot.  Walked through a wrist/arm strike.  With a hard wood stick your probably going down or your broken.  Now you can't close.  Your just stuck and getting bludgeoned.
> 
> ...



Yeah. See I was thinking the same sort of concept with head kicks and sparring. Normally I am not trying to kick a guys head off and so instead of nailing them and watching them drop. They  quite often will be able to counter. And quite often one or the other guy will say. "Yeah but you would have been dropped."

Now you have either Dodged the shot or you haven't and it will either drop you or you won't.

You don't really have to practice getting knocked out in the correct way. You should practice recovering if you haven't been knocked out.

Same you don't really need to practice what to do if you just knocked a guy out you should practice what to do if you haven't and he is recovering.

So I think the stick fighting where these injuries don't happen still teach a useful fighting mechanic


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 20, 2017)

*Absolutely Drop Bear!*  Provided people understand the limitations of sparring with rattan which is a training tool and not a combat tool.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah. Knowing your arm isn't likely to get broken allows for bolder moves, though.



Yeah. That I thought would be a factor.


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2017)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Absolutely Drop Bear!*  Provided people understand the limitations of sparring with rattan which is a training tool and not a combat tool.



And so the theory there would be if I can drop a guy with rattan. I am going to be a real issue with a steel bar.


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## Blindside (Jun 20, 2017)

drop bear said:


> See I would have thought if there was ever going to be a conceptual arms race. It would be dog brothers.
> .



Oh there is, but there simply aren't many BJJ black belts out there, I can think of one that I know of out of the active Dog Brothers in the US though there may be more that I am not aware of.  I know of at least two browns and the numbers go up from there for the lower ranks.  It is an important range but only one part of the arms race.  One other factor that apparently isn't as big in Europe or Canada is the use of hideaway knives in the US Gatherings.  I can make up for my BJJ white belt with a knife.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 21, 2017)

Nice video.  The 3 section staff is really difficult to use.  It was good to see someone give it try.  I notice that he kept it away from the legs of his opponents.  I was surprised that he decided to use the weapon as a long weapon when he knew that the risk for someone running in is greater.  The protective equipment should have changed the strategy.  There were also no pokes.  If I knew how to use a 3 section staff then I probably wouldn't use those things either.  It's sparring and not a real fight.  I would never wish someone to be permanently injured for the sake of showing the effectiveness of a weapon. 

I would have thought that the nature of the 3 sectional staff would make it good as a weapon that trap limbs or even wrap it around someone's neck to choke them out.  I wish I knew more about the 3 section staff.  I don't like it much because I would really need to be a higher skill than I'm willing to shoot for.  The 3 section staff is an advance skill weapon.  I don't think a beginner or intermediate skill level will be en it would be nice to know how it was used.  The only thing that I'm sure of just form seeing people practice and beat themselves up with, is that you don't want to get get hit with it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 21, 2017)

drop bear said:


> And so the theory there would be if I can drop a guy with rattan. I am going to be a real issue with a steel bar.


Yes. I think the only thought adjustment is for understanding what it means to face a harder weapon, and not to depend upon the tactics that work against rattan simply because it is rattan. Like sparring without knockouts - I could develop an inflated sense of safety.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 21, 2017)

Yes you would be Drop Bear!


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. I think the only thought adjustment is for understanding what it means to face a harder weapon, and not to depend upon the tactics that work against rattan simply because it is rattan. Like sparring without knockouts - I could develop an inflated sense of safety.



Conversely you should hit and recover a bit quicker because the other guy wont drop.


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## KangTsai (Jun 22, 2017)

I like the stick assisted kimuras.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 22, 2017)

It was quite interesting to say the least. I have started training with sansetsukan. Not very good at it and can't imagine using it for legit self defense at this point.


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