# When to ki-up?



## FearlessFreep (Dec 22, 2004)

When do you usually, or when should you, ki-up?  In a fight or a sparring match.

 I know it can add and extra 'oomph' to a blow or extra protection in defense, but I don't think you do it on every strike and block.

 Is there a general strategy or tactic to be learned in using a ki-up? Or a general set of principles ot something, or is it something that you just sorta have to make up as you go along in developing your own style.

 As a musician, I'm big on dicovering the general principles behind how and why things work and then applying them specifically to what, where and how (unless the principle itself is 'when' and 'where' but..you get the point  ) I learn the principles of music (chord and harmony theory, rythm), etc..) , and apply them to live jazz improve based on my own personaility and taste and interaction with others. I tend to approach TKD in much the same mindset. So I ask a lot of questions based on 'what's the general rule and what are some examples of how to apply it' to try to understand the basic principle and learn to apply it for myself.


   Thanks


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## XxTKDPenguinxX (Dec 22, 2004)

We teach ki-haps in every aspect we can think of.  In form work (as a lower rank student) the ki-haps are taught as a way to remind them to breathe throughout the form.  There are certian techniques during each poome-sae (form) that are required.  One example is out white belt form.  There are two ki-haps in this form... the 7th and 16th technique. 
  There is the fact that ki-haps generate power as well as confidence.
This practice continues in each form.  There are 2 ki-haps in lower rank forms, three in higher rank forms, and some black belt forms will have 4 or more.

  Board breaking... I almost ALWAYS ki-hap when striking a board.  For me, its a mental thing.  I need to break that board on the first shot.  That yell gives me the inner power to go through it (and sometimes I'm just hyped up   ).

  In a sparring situation, ki-haps are used in several ways.  One way is to use a ki-hap to "wake the judges up", in a sense.  You throw a technique that appears powerful, or even a little flashy... a ki-hap can open the eyes of the officials to it and may even spark a point call.
  Another is to keep your opponant on his/her toes.  A ki-hap will, on some occasions, hesitate your opponant enough to catch'em off guard.  I, for one, will use them, on occasion, BEFORE I throw the technique.  More often than not, I can get them to hesitate for a split second.  Maybe even give a good, loud, strong ki-hap with a little jerk of my body to get them to think I was moving in.  They hesitate and _pow_...
  Of course, there is a speed factor in this manner of using them in this manner.


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 22, 2004)

Whenever "AAAAIIIIIYA!" it feels good


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## bignick (Dec 22, 2004)

First off, I have noticed the actual sound I makes depends on what I'm doing.  I have a certain yell for breaking, another for sparring, another in forms...

I think the big things have been covered, a kihap forces you to breathe, when forceful enough it can distract your opponent and definitely adds power...

Basically, I believe you need to figure out when a kihap feels right to you.  I always kihap when I break and as stated, it's part of the whole mental thing.  Breaking is one thing I'm extremely good at and I can feel everything come together.  My kihaps are definitely at their most intense when I break.  When I hit and for the split second after I feel the absolute focus and awareness, zanshin in japanese I believe...the times I have tried a break without yelling they haven't felt nearly as well and they are missing something....

When I spar my yells tend to come in short bursts, our school emphasizes a kihap on almost every technique so I usually give one for every strike.  

In the end...my advice to you is just relax and see where they come out...


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## Spookey (Dec 22, 2004)

Dear Fearless,

Patterns hold specific locations for the kiap, the kiap as described above works well for competition just as previously described...

For combat application...First, if you have never been attacked, understand that generally, the aggressor is on you and does not back away and then re-attack...When you have an aggressor in persuit, like and animal they are not hoping for aggresion in return. A good strong kiap with an immediate and devastating attack (preimptive or counter), can create a shock attack in the motor skills of the attacker and create an opening for you to launch your attack!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## Zepp (Dec 23, 2004)

My instructor explains the ki-up as something you do to turn off part of your brain and just do something.  In other words, you know that rationale part of your mind that tells you not to punch a solid piece of wood?  Making a loud noise helps you to stop using that part of your brain for an instant.

Of course, other benefits include making yourself exhale, which always helps to focus a strike, and the attempt to shock your opponent.  It's really not something to spend a lot of time thinking about, because not thinking is kind of the point.  So, for fighting and sparring, I'd suggest just doing it when you feel the need.

More important, if you aren't doing this already, is to get in the habit of exhaling whenever you throw a strike or take a hit.  Once that comes naturally to you, the ki-up should too.


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## Adept (Dec 23, 2004)

We only rarely emphasize the shout in our training. On the final move of a pattern, one is required, and sometimes when doing horse-stance punches during class. But thats about it.

 We do however, place a lot of emphasis on proper breathing. Breathing properly lets you utilise your core muscles to a greater extent, generating more power.


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## Tae Kwon Doughboy (Dec 24, 2004)

As little as possible! But that's just me. I hate to ki-up. It messes up my breathing and technique. I'm a one track mind kind of guy. If I try to remember to ki-up everything else suffers.

I breath deep and slow, which is fine for Tai Chi but does fit the lungs empty at the time of impact taught in TDK. Ki-upping and emptying the lung on each kick in warm-ups makes me feel like I'm going to hyperventelate. It wears me out.

If I breathe the way I normally would I have twice the endurance. The other people in class are worn out and I'm looking at them like "what are we going to do next?"


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## Miles (Dec 25, 2004)

Spookey said:
			
		

> Dear Fearless,
> 
> Patterns hold specific locations for the kiap, the kiap as described above works well for competition just as previously described...
> 
> ...


Very succinct Spookey! 

Miles


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## Marginal (Dec 25, 2004)

Spookey said:
			
		

> For combat application...First, if you have never been attacked, understand that generally, the aggressor is on you and does not back away and then re-attack...When you have an aggressor in persuit, like and animal they are not hoping for aggresion in return. A good strong kiap with an immediate and devastating attack (preimptive or counter), can create a shock attack in the motor skills of the attacker and create an opening for you to launch your attack!


The attack itself'll create a shock to the ol' motor skills more reliably, as would the fact you're attacking when they're not expecting you to.


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## Spookey (Dec 26, 2004)

Marginal,

I agree to all you have said, and I believe you will agree that a loud, aggressive, thundering roar will only add to the confusion of the attackers motor skills!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## Marginal (Dec 26, 2004)

I'm not so sure about the actual shout compared to the display of spirit.


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## Spookey (Dec 26, 2004)

Marginal,

Fair enough, maybe they are one in the same!

I do however wish to offer the example of a flash-bang grenade as using sound as a censory override!

TAEKWON!
Spookey


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## Adept (Dec 27, 2004)

Spookey said:
			
		

> Marginal,
> 
> Fair enough, maybe they are one in the same!
> 
> ...


 I'm sure I dont need to point out there are several key differences between a person yelling and a flash bang grenade.


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## shesulsa (Dec 27, 2004)

A kihap can serve several purposes, but the most important one is that of cummoning and channeling your energy force - your ki - and moving it through your body and exiting at the moment contact is made with a strike or a break.  Also, kihaps are used to put energy into parts of your body - it is a summoning of the life force.

 Different kihaps serve different purposes and accompany different actions.  If your movement is slow and deliberate, you will kihap longer and deeper.  If your movement is quick and sharp, so will your kihap be.


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## Adept (Dec 27, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> A kihap can serve several purposes, but the most important one is that of cummoning and channeling your energy force - your ki - and moving it through your body and exiting at the moment contact is made with a strike or a break. Also, kihaps are used to put energy into parts of your body - it is a summoning of the life force.


 I assume you have sufficient scientific and medical research and data to support this position, or even the existance of such a force?


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## shesulsa (Dec 27, 2004)

I suppose you have sufficient scientific and medical research and data to support that it doesn't?


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## Flamebearer (Dec 27, 2004)

Spookey said:
			
		

> For combat application...First, if you have never been attacked, understand that generally, the aggressor is on you and does not back away and then re-attack...When you have an aggressor in persuit, like and animal they are not hoping for aggresion in return. A good strong kiap with an immediate and devastating attack (preimptive or counter), can create a shock attack in the motor skills of the attacker and create an opening for you to launch your attack!


Bingo!!!!
also it attracts the attention of anybody in the surrounding area. That part would probably encourage you to use control, with all those witnesses watching. 

I like to open a sparring match with a kiap. It wakes everybody up.

I'm going to sleep now.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz

-Flamebearer


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## Adept (Dec 27, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I suppose you have sufficient scientific and medical research and data to support that it doesn't?


 I'm rather afraid it works the other way. He or she who asserts, must prove. I can just as easily claim that there is no ki or life force, but we are insted powered by the flatulence of large pink monkeys, who are so mysterious and ethereal no one but me knows about them.

 Of course, I cant back that up. But apparently, thats not a requirement.

 Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational or aggressive. If you honestly believe in something like ki or life force, I'm genuinely curious as to why. Maybe there is some key research I've missed, or perhaps a fresh perspective could help me learn. So in all sincerity, what makes you believe in ki?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 27, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> I assume you have sufficient scientific and medical research and data to support this position, or even the existance of such a force?



Considering the fact that accupuncture and accupressure is used as anesthetic in modern surgury, I would say, yes, it definitely exists...even if scientists (myself included) cannot fully describe it.  

Check this thread...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12142&highlight=Existance+Chi

There is a ton of stuff on this very topic.


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## Makalakumu (Dec 27, 2004)

In my dojang, I have three general rules regarding Ki-haps and their use...

1.  To draw attention...in a self defense situation, the best thing an attacker can wish for is a meek and quiet victim.  In many cases, the presence of loud noise and watching eyes can make would be attackers think twice.

2.  To intimidate...again, in a self defense situation meek and quiet can be synonomous.  When the _meek _ cease to be _quiet_ *bad * things start to happen to perps.  In essence, this is the quintessential blood curdling battle cry.

3.  To express power...this can take many forms and it can have many explanations.  The end result is the same.  Executing a technique with an emotive (and spiritual) shout _increases _ the power of that technique.

Here are some examples from my training that show these principles applied...

1.  30 min before my instructor and I performed a self defense seminar on my old college campus (as the crowd was gathering) we milled on the out skirts of the park.  Silently, he took a swing at me and I went down.  He took my wallet and ran.  NO BODY EVEN LOOKED.  10 minutes before the start, we did the same demonstration, this time I defended and let loose with my war cry.  The entire crowd was instantly staring.

2.  At my second dan test, I had to spar three other black belts at the same time.  I am a quiet guy and known for speaking softly.  At _sijak _ I let loose with a war cry that shook the foundations and three trained fighters stood rooted, staring, and bewildered while I got the jump on them.  My instructors instructor (a sixth dan) pointed this out as an example for his higher ranked students.

3.  Breaking.  Five bricks.  No spacers.  I visualized my hand moving through and the shout came from a place in my mind that is usually buried.

upnorthkyosa


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## Zepp (Dec 28, 2004)

Adept,

There's an article about ki by Ron Chapel in the Fall 2004 issue of MartialTalk Magazine.  It's not the kind of thing that would belong in _Nature_, but I think it puts things in a perspective you might appreciate.


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## Adept (Dec 28, 2004)

Zepp said:
			
		

> Adept,
> 
> There's an article about ki by Ron Chapel in the Fall 2004 issue of MartialTalk Magazine. It's not the kind of thing that would belong in _Nature_, but I think it puts things in a perspective you might appreciate.


 Sounds good. Is it an online publication? If so, where does one find it? If it is a paper publication, do you think it would be worth importing it to Australia? Also, which months are fall? I'm assuming september to november?


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## Zepp (Dec 28, 2004)

It's an online publication put out by the owner of this very board.  Just go to www.martialtalk.com and click on the link for the magazine.  

Btw, it's in PDF format, so you'll need to download Adobe Reader if it isn't already on your computer.


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## Marginal (Dec 28, 2004)

Adept said:
			
		

> Look, I'm not trying to be confrontational or aggressive. If you honestly believe in something like ki or life force, I'm genuinely curious as to why. Maybe there is some key research I've missed, or perhaps a fresh perspective could help me learn. So in all sincerity, what makes you believe in ki?



Largely depends on how you look at it. If you're moving cups, knocking people out without touching them etc, that's rocketing off into the realms of quackery. 

On the other hand, someone once presented me with the following chi blocking exercise:

Put your finger on someone's philtrum, (the spot directly under their nose) and tell them to try as hard as they can to take a step forward. They won't be able to. 

There's a trick to this. Most of the hold up is phychological. In trying to move forward as hard as they can, they tense. Thusly, their neck muscles etc work against any attempted forward movement. There are valid and completely reasonable physiological reasons for why the exercise works as it's intended. Call it chi or biomechanics etc, the result's the same. A boxer's trying just as hard to focus their energy on one point. Chi energy, kinetic energy... Doesn't really matter.


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## Zepp (Dec 28, 2004)

Marginal said:
			
		

> On the other hand, someone once presented me with the following chi blocking exercise:
> 
> Put your finger on someone's philtrum, (the spot directly under their nose) and tell them to try as hard as they can to take a step forward. They won't be able to.



Gotta try this one.  Thanks for posting it.


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