# OK I'm officially confused



## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2008)

Guys dont get me wrong because I like Dr Yang but what the heck is going on here. Look at what Dr Yang is doing and compare it to the Chen family Versions of Paochui

Yang Jwingming Pao Chui 

Chen Taijiquan - Laojia Er Lu (Pao Chui)  Chen Zhenglei

Chen Xiaowang Xinja Erlu - Chen Xiaowang,


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 26, 2008)

Well to be fair he has been doing it only for 2 years. 


Yang Jwing Ming's stances look wider to me that may be because he does Yang form. The weight looks more 70/30 or 80/20

Were the weight by Chen Zhenlei looks more 60/40.

Yang Jwing Ming's arm movement looks wider as well.

Not as compact as Chen style. 

I think it is good for someone practicing for 2 years and making a transition from Yang to Chen.


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## Ninebird8 (Dec 26, 2008)

I have trained my Yang style under his senior Jeff Bolt and taken many seminars with him. He has admitted that he has only done Chen for 2 years, and frankly, it does have stances that are too wide. But the overall fa jing is there, and of course the focus and transition. Personally, for only two years it does not look bad, but of course his Yang and white crane does show through. At age 61, he moves very well, and as I found when I went to each of my three masters over the last 32 years, eventually what you learn blends together and is hard to separate, though I do keep my southern separate from my Northern, but my tai chi has pervaded all of my kung fu.

I am not excusing him, or defending him, only saying I admire at his age he is still learning something new, says he is, and puts himself out there for it. My tai chi, compared to my kung fu, is nowhere close still, but then I have found tai chi to be at times very frustrating yet always rewarding!!


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Dec 26, 2008)

I'm the GREENEST here so my opinion doesn't matter anywhere near as much but, I've seen at least part of this performed by Guang Yi Ren and this didn't look like that.

Better than I could (especially since I'm not doing Chen style) though.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 27, 2008)

Did he learn Chen form from Shou Yu Liang? I think Shou Yu liang teaches it. I do not know who taught Shou Yu Liang Chen style.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 27, 2008)

I hear you guys talking about the differences of chen style stances. Well let me asked you. Which do you think is better? Chen or Yang stances?

Also what are the advantages and disadvantages of both stances?


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## Ninebird8 (Dec 27, 2008)

Yoshi, your first question is a red herring to me, in that Yang, like the other 3 styles Wu, Wu Hao, and Sun, all emanated from Chen so of course comparing stance work to me is a little problematic. I will say, in my opinion, just from observation, that Chen seems more dynamic and the transitional stancework is different from Yang. One of the questions that I have about Chen v. other tai chi deriviatives, is the expression of fa jing seems much more readily apparent than the others in expression during the forms? Xue, and others, do you find this true as well? Yang's fa jing comes through to me at least more subtly and as explosive, but less apparent in observation. As an example of another difference, my Ying Jow sifu, Leung Shum, is also a Wu style tai chi master, and Grandmaster Kwong Ming Lee (Johnny, who is also a master of mizhong and ba gua) is one as well. With one from Hong Kong, and the other from Shanghai, their Wu stances are a little different....to wit, Sigung Lee's Wu leans a little more forward in a couple of instances than Sigung Shum's. But the essentials are the same. Similarly, I have seen many variations of the same Chen forms performed by different masters. AS far as who Dr. Yang learned from, I would not be surprised if Shouyu Liang taught him, as he holds him in great esteem, and both my tai chi/white crane sifu Jeff Bolt and Dr. Yang speak very highly of Master Shouyu and his daughter Helen.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 27, 2008)

I agree with the fajing you just have to look at silk reeling.

I don't think one is better than the other.

Personally I would really like to learn Wu or Sun with martial application.

I read Helen's story in Kungfu Tai chi(what ever they call it nowadays) magazine I have her Water boxing DVD she is truly amazing.

I have Shou Yu Liang Fast wrestling book it is excellent.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 28, 2008)

Excellent discussion very very interesting!




JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I agree with the fajing you just have to look at silk reeling.
> 
> I don't think one is better than the other.
> 
> ...


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## Ninebird8 (Dec 28, 2008)

I just finished learning that water boxing set, as one of my classmated has gone up to Vancouver to learn from him and his daughter the last few years this 253 movement set, and it is quite intricate, difficult, and an endless supply of fighting techniques and fa jing expressions. If you want to learn true fa jing explosion from the waist, learn li  he bua fa!! My opinion! A great accent to the Yang tai chi!


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 28, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> I just finished learning that water boxing set, as one of my classmated has gone up to Vancouver to learn from him and his daughter the last few years this 253 movement set, and it is quite intricate, difficult, and an endless supply of fighting techniques and fa jing expressions. If you want to learn true fa jing explosion from the waist, learn li he bua fa!! My opinion! A great accent to the Yang tai chi!


 
I looked for Liuhebafa for a while but gave up since the only teacher I found near me was...well....fake.

But I envy your training.

But I will add there is a lot of fajing in Yang style and after doing push hands with my sifu for a few years I have the bruise to prove it 


By the way there is a Liuhebafa person that posts on MT from time to time by the name of Oxy


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 28, 2008)

Whats up with all the water down Tai Chi?

Why are people mixing it up...


Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?




Xue Sheng said:


> I looked for Liuhebafa for a while but gave up since the only teacher I found near me was...well....fake.
> 
> But I envy your training.
> 
> ...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 29, 2008)

> Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?


 
Ya look at Sun Tai chi.


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## Ninebird8 (Dec 29, 2008)

Xue, I agree that Yang has very good fa jing, I just find it much more subtle than Chen after years with Jeff and Dr. Yang. The expression from Yang seems much more from the feet to the waist to the shoulder expressed through the hands in an explosive but subtle way. In fact, might be another good thread topic, to discuss the different ways fa jing and silk reeling, along with rooting/sinking, are expressed out in the five major tai chi styles and ba gua/hsing i.  

Liang Shouyu is extraordinary, and Dr. Yang and Jeff look up to him immensely, quite honestly.  I will tell you his li he bua fa is very difficult and though I have "learned" the moves I give myself 3-5 years to totally understand what I just learned, LOL!!


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 29, 2008)

Ninebird8 said:


> Xue, I agree that Yang has very good fa jing, I just find it much more subtle than Chen after years with Jeff and Dr. Yang. The expression from Yang seems much more from the feet to the waist to the shoulder expressed through the hands in an explosive but subtle way. In fact, might be another good thread topic, to discuss the different ways fa jing and silk reeling, along with rooting/sinking, are expressed out in the five major tai chi styles and ba gua/hsing i.
> 
> Liang Shouyu is extraordinary, and Dr. Yang and Jeff look up to him immensely, quite honestly. I will tell you his li he bua fa is very difficult and though I have "learned" the moves I give myself 3-5 years to totally understand what I just learned, LOL!!


 
Agreed Yang is much more subtle than Chen. Could be why I have always liked Chen better, I have never been accused of being subtle 

The only person my Taiji sifu has ever saw doing the Beijing 24 form that he said had a good understanding of taiji was Liang Shouyu.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 29, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Whats up with all the water down Tai Chi?
> 
> Why are people mixing it up...
> 
> ...


 
Well as JadecloudAlchemist already said Sun Style Taijiquan

Sun Lutang was a Xingyiquan, Baguazhang master before learning Hao style taijiquan (or at least I think it was Hao style). He then combined Xingyiquan/Bagauzhang/Taijiquan and got Sun Style Taijiquan.

As for watered down and why. It is much easier to train just for form and not do the MA. First people can claim mastery much quicker and second it does not hurt as much.

Very few people (myself included when I was younger) want to take the time necessary to actually understand Taijiquan as a Martial Art. We all want to become dangerous quickly.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 29, 2008)

*Xue Zheng said*: 





> As for watered down and why. It is much easier to train just for form and not do the MA. First people can claim mastery much quicker and second it does not hurt as much.


 
Please explain why it doesn't hurt as much?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 29, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> *Xue Zheng said*:
> 
> Please explain why it doesn't hurt as much?


 
They don't do applications and applications hurt and most do not even do the correct form. Do Yang style higher and slow it will not hurt as much the next day. Don't do push hands or any apps in push hands because that too can hurt or be uncomfortable and Qinna is RIGHT out.

Look at videos on YouTube of Yang Jun or Yang Zhenduo and compare them to videos of Tung Hu Ling and Tung Ying Chieh you will see the difference in height. I wold also recommend looking at videos of Fu Zhongwen but many of those are when he was rather old. There may be videos of his son out there that you can look at that will also show you differences in many things as compared to the Yang family today.


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## Formosa Neijia (Jan 23, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Guys dont get me wrong because I like Dr Yang but what the heck is going on here. Look at what Dr Yang is doing and compare it to the Chen family Versions of Paochui
> 
> Yang Jwingming Pao Chui
> 
> ...



The problem with this comparison is that there's a much wider variety of Chen style than is indicated in this comparison. The bottom two teachers are famous but that hardly makes them the only experts on the subject, nor the standard by which all Chen stylists compare themselves.

Dr. Ynag's Chen style reminds me on the Chen styles I've seen in my time here in Taiwan. The styles here have a much stronger xiaojia -- small circle -- flavor than the laojia practiced by Zhenglei and Xiaowang.

So I would cut Dr. Yang some slack here.

He learned his Chen from Liang Shou-you and that's the person Yang's form should be compared to. But I don't think I've seen a clip of Liang's Chen.


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## DavidCC (Jan 23, 2009)

I belevie Yi Li Quan combines Xing Yi, Baghua and Tai Chi.  Pete Starr is an MT member but hasbeen pretty infrequent altely. (user pstarr i believe).  I have met him on a few occasions and trained with some of his students and they are for real.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 23, 2009)

DavidCC said:


> I belevie Yi Li Quan combines Xing Yi, Baghua and Tai Chi. Pete Starr is an MT member but hasbeen pretty infrequent altely. (user pstarr i believe). I have met him on a few occasions and trained with some of his students and they are for real.


 
OK I am again officially confused.

I know Pete Starr, via MT only, and I have read his books as well and I have no doubt of the his legitimacy as a martial artists or his style but what does Yi Li Quan and pstarr have to do with Dr Yang Jwing Ming doing Chen style Taijiquan?

EDIT

Wait I think I know where you are coming from now based on a few posts back. It is a legitimate style made up of the study of other styles. I Am not exactly sure what Yi Li Quan is a combination of but I do know it is most certainly part Xingyiquan and I believe Bagua as well but I am not sure how much of it is taiji. But my take on it is it is more towards the Xingyi side of the neijia styles then the taiji. But only Pete Starr could answer that one for sure

And you are correct he does not post here any longer and that is a loss to MT IMO.

Sorry I was a bit slow on the uptake before DavidCC


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## DavidCC (Jan 23, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> OK I am again officially confused.
> 
> I know Pete Starr, via MT only, and I have read his books as well and I have no doubt of the his legitimacy as a martial artists or his style but what does Yi Li Quan and pstarr have to do with Dr Yang Jwing Ming doing Chen style Taijiquan?
> 
> ...


 
Yes, it was asked "Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?"


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## pete (Jan 23, 2009)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Yes, it was asked "Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?"


 
David, this is actually a style I practice. Wu Ji Style Tai Chi Chuan is a derivative of Chen style, where much of the abrupt stop/starts, stomps, and explicit _fa li_ have been softened and made continuous through emphasis on coiling, spirals, and _chan si. _After learning and practicing the form, you can then apply bagua stepping to do the form with continuous walking... very fast and agile.  The style hails from Shanghai region but is not very well know in the US.

Pete


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## Myrmidon (Mar 3, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Guys dont get me wrong because I like Dr Yang but what the heck is going on here. Look at what Dr Yang is doing and compare it to the Chen family Versions of Paochui
> 
> Yang Jwingming Pao Chui
> 
> ...



Interesting... Yang Jwingming seems to be doing a particular interpretation of new frame (xinjia) Pao Chui. Chen Zhenglei and Chen Xiaowang do the Chen Jia Gou (Chen Village) version of the Chen Style.

Who did Shou Yu Liang learn the Chen style from?


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## Myrmidon (Mar 3, 2009)

DavidCC said:


> Yes, it was asked "Has anyone heard of forms that mix Baguazhang and Tai Chi together into one form?"



Sun style taijiquan is supposed to have some baguazhang.

Here's another mix by GM Feng Zhiqiang in which he combines chen style taijiquan with xinyi liuhequan and tongbeiquan:


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## Myrmidon (Mar 3, 2009)

Formosa Neijia said:


> The problem with this comparison is that there's a much wider variety of Chen style than is indicated in this comparison. The bottom two teachers are famous but that hardly makes them the only experts on the subject, nor the standard by which all Chen stylists compare themselves.



There are several interpretations of Chen style taijiquan, the Chen Jiagou version just being one of them. There are others in Beijing and Shandong, Taiwan... plus the government forms.


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## Myrmidon (Mar 4, 2009)

Here's another interesting mix:


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