# OC Sprays



## sgtmac_46 (Mar 29, 2005)

Thought i'd drop a post and ask about folks experiences with OC Sprays, if you carry it, if you've ever used it (Civilian or Law Enforcement).  I've got a pretty extensive background with OC, which i'll share, but first I want to hear anyone else's experiences with Pepper Sprays.  Do you carry it, have you ever been exposed to it, what did you think, that sort of stuff.


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## still learning (Mar 29, 2005)

Hello, Hawaii it is against the law to carry it on you. The Police offices do carry and use the "spray".  Have you notice it doesn't always take the guys down. 

 If one is prepare to get spray some times you can counter react to its's effect. Have you found this to be true?

 If the good people could get them, then this means the bad guys can too!  Who do you think will use it more?  Bad guys want there jobs to be easy! .....Aloha


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 30, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Hawaii it is against the law to carry it on you. The Police offices do carry and use the "spray". Have you notice it doesn't always take the guys down.
> 
> If one is prepare to get spray some times you can counter react to its's effect. Have you found this to be true?
> 
> If the good people could get them, then this means the bad guys can too! Who do you think will use it more? Bad guys want there jobs to be easy! .....Aloha


Yes, it has been my experience that OC Sprays are less than one hundred percent effective on goal oriented individuals.  I myself can fight through the effects of OC Spray enough to continue to be combat effective.  OC Spray by itself should never the entire defensive tactics plan.  I train my officers that OC Spray should be considered part of an overall plan.  OC Spray cannot be counted on to control an aggressive subject, but it can be counted on to in some degree hinder his ability to see, breath and cause him considerable pain.  How that effects the attacker will depend on his sensitivity and mindset.


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## KenpoTex (Mar 30, 2005)

I carry a small can in my jacket pocket (sometimes) and a standard "police size" can when I'm working (security).  I realize that it doesn't have a perfect record but then again, neither do impact weapons, knives, or firearms.  I look at sprays as a modern-day metsubishi, something to distract so I can get away, or so I can close and put them down.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 30, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> I carry a small can in my jacket pocket (sometimes) and a standard "police size" can when I'm working (security). I realize that it doesn't have a perfect record but then again, neither do impact weapons, knives, or firearms. I look at sprays as a modern-day metsubishi, something to distract so I can get away, or so I can close and put them down.


That's actually the right way to look at OC Spray, as a distraction tool.

Personally, i'm pretty resistant to OC Spray (I know from experience) so as an LEO I tend to use OC Spray as a grappling tool (which isn't the way it's recommended) because i'm not concerned so much with getting contaminated myself. I don't care how much I get on me, as long as I get some on the other guy. I do tend to have a residual effect from the OC after the confrontation is over, but I really don't mind. I don't recommend this to everyone.

Speaking of which, how many that carry OC Spray in here have ever been exposed to it?


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## ginshun (Mar 30, 2005)

While I don't use it, and have never been exposed to it, I would imagine it is hard to attack someone if you can't see them.  That being said, it really does nothing to the physical abilities of an attacker.  I am guessing that if you sprayed it in the face of a pumped up attacker, who already had a hold of you, it probably wouldn't do you much good.  Aside from _maybe_ surprising them enough to let you get free and take off.

 I know people that have been sprayed by it though, either because they have it for their job and were required to have been sprayed so that they know the effects, or on the other hand becaue they were on the wrong end of the law.

 Everyone that I have talked to who has been sprayed has said that it sucks real bad, but that aside from being temporarily blinded, you could fight through the physical effects.


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## still learning (Mar 30, 2005)

Hello, My friend  retired from the police force, but mention this story to me.  There was a concert and a fight started, by the time the police arrive, people were trying to stop the police from getting too close.   He went up wind and open his (bear spray size can) OC  and spray into the crowd.  He said everyone started to leave  quickly and the fights ended.(out door concert).  Ended peacefully.  

 OC has it purpose and you are right!  It is not a end all product, but has it's uses.  ......Aloha


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## redfang (Apr 5, 2005)

I recently got picked up by a pd and am going through their academy.  So, I've been carrying oc spray for the two months that I've been in it.  I haven't been hit with it yet.  Towards the end of the academy I have the pleasure of getting sprayed and gassed, on the same day.  Joy.  Most of the sworn LEO's in our dept say that they aren't that hindered by pepper spray any more.  They also state that often times, suspects sprayed will react like they are being murdered, as much from anticipating pain as actual effects.  I have been taught that pepper spray is not always effective, but it just might distract them long enough to assist them into a prone handcuffing position.  If not, we can move right on up the ladder of force as necessary.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 5, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> I recently got picked up by a pd and am going through their academy. So, I've been carrying oc spray for the two months that I've been in it. I haven't been hit with it yet. Towards the end of the academy I have the pleasure of getting sprayed and gassed, on the same day. Joy. Most of the sworn LEO's in our dept say that they aren't that hindered by pepper spray any more. They also state that often times, suspects sprayed will react like they are being murdered, as much from anticipating pain as actual effects. I have been taught that pepper spray is not always effective, but it just might distract them long enough to assist them into a prone handcuffing position. If not, we can move right on up the ladder of force as necessary.


Hopefully your academy is one that does more than simply expose you to the OC Spray and then have you decontaminate.  It is my most profound belief, as a law enforcement trainer in general, and an OC Spray instructor in particular, that any exposure to OC Spray by officers should be coupled with that officer having to perform the task of protecting himself by attacking the attacker and defending his gun.  To simply expose a cadet to OC and then say "See, that works doesn't it" is counter-productive.  A goal oriented mindset can fight through OC and continue to function.  It is that mindset that should be taught to officers.  If your academy is the kind that simply sprays you and walks you to the water fountain, at least do yourself the favor of attempting to fight through the effects and walk yourself to water fountain.  Even just forcing yourself to open your eyes and walk around experiencing the effects, instead of immediately going for the water, will be valuable training experience.  You'll come to understand the term "shutter effect" when it comes to your vision.


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## redfang (Apr 6, 2005)

I don't really know what they do.  But I do know that our instructors are all seasoned vets and make the training as close to reality based as possible.  I get the impression from the instructors that they all care a great deal about the cadet's abilities to do their jobs once in the field.  From this I have to assume that they will do more than a simple spray and decon.  I'll find out for certain soon.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 7, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> I don't really know what they do. But I do know that our instructors are all seasoned vets and make the training as close to reality based as possible. I get the impression from the instructors that they all care a great deal about the cadet's abilities to do their jobs once in the field. From this I have to assume that they will do more than a simple spray and decon. I'll find out for certain soon.


  If it's done right, it should be some memorable training (in more ways than one).


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## rmcrobertson (Apr 27, 2005)

I'd be interested to know anybody's experience with this stuff and animals, since  I always carry a can of Defender when I'm up in the mountains near my house on the off chance that I'll run into a dog, cat or bear--all of which has actually happened to people in the SoCal mountains.

I'm assuming that if I catch an animal in the face, it'll at least reconsider things a little...thoughts? I can't exactly schpritz my neighbors' dogs and cats to check...though considering the yapping monsters across the block...no, still can't do it.


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## Zepp (Apr 27, 2005)

Something I've been curious about:  I've been told by someone in the National Guard that exposure to tear gas is a mandatory part of their training and the Army's.  This person also told me that pepper spray will hardly bother someone who has been repeatedly exposed to tear gas, and that it becomes less effective as someone is exposed to pepper spray.  Does anyone know, to what degree this is true?


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 29, 2005)

Zepp said:
			
		

> Something I've been curious about: I've been told by someone in the National Guard that exposure to tear gas is a mandatory part of their training and the Army's. This person also told me that pepper spray will hardly bother someone who has been repeatedly exposed to tear gas, and that it becomes less effective as someone is exposed to pepper spray. Does anyone know, to what degree this is true?


One of my officers is a former Marine.  He said that they were exposed to tear gas every 6 months, and he became pretty used to it.  This officer has an extremly adverse reaction to OC and says it's entirely different.  I've been exposed to OC numerous times.  I once got some residual tear gas exposure, but it wasn't to the level of the 'gas chamger'.  It is a different experience.


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 29, 2005)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I'd be interested to know anybody's experience with this stuff and animals, since I always carry a can of Defender when I'm up in the mountains near my house on the off chance that I'll run into a dog, cat or bear--all of which has actually happened to people in the SoCal mountains.
> 
> I'm assuming that if I catch an animal in the face, it'll at least reconsider things a little...thoughts? I can't exactly schpritz my neighbors' dogs and cats to check...though considering the yapping monsters across the block...no, still can't do it.


Animals do not like OC spray any more than humans, it burns the eyes, the nose and makes it difficult to breath.  Most animals will remove themselves from the area.  

That having been said, experiments with trained police dogs has shown that OC Spray has far less effect on goal people AND animals.  A police dog will fight through the OC Spray if it has a goal.  The ability to fight through the spray actually increases with experience and success at doing it.  A wild animal is actually more likely to flee than a trained dog, however, as wild animals don't have the same goal orientation.  In the wild goal orientation isn't usually a survival skill.  

If you do have to use the OC Spray on an animal who is going to attack you, my recommendation is to use the whole can and make sure that you saturate the eyes, nose and mouth.  Keep spraying until the animal flees the area.  The response you can expect from a dog is a sneezing like action, along with drawing back.  If it's a particularly aggressive dog, he may seek to reengage if you don't continue spraying and overwhelm him.  This is especially true among game bred or trained dogs. The average dog, however, will be several blocks away before you're able to spray more than one or two seconds.


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## Cruentus (May 2, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Thought i'd drop a post and ask about folks experiences with OC Sprays, if you carry it, if you've ever used it (Civilian or Law Enforcement).  I've got a pretty extensive background with OC, which i'll share, but first I want to hear anyone else's experiences with Pepper Sprays.  Do you carry it, have you ever been exposed to it, what did you think, that sort of stuff.



I think OC is a great protection tool. It is a great non-lethal force method. I have been trained with it and have taught others. I have been sprayed with it as well.

It is true that it is not 100% effective. But, nothing is 100%, and at 70% effectiveness, you can't go wrong. Firearms, in the hands of cops and most people trying to defend themselves, are only going on less then 20% effectiveness. So at the very least, you may be able to create that window of escape with OC.

I am a big fan of OC as a non-lethal force tool.

 :supcool:


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## Cruentus (May 2, 2005)

Also...on most animals OC will work well, from accounts I have heard.

However, if your going camping or in wilderness and would like to be more prepared, spend the 35-40 bucks and get a large sized Bear Spray. Bear Spray is basically OC but much, much stronger. It'll take out most animals and it will put out your average human for a week. DO NOT try to carry this stuff on the street, however. It is not only illegal (probably, at least it is in my state), but a bit excessive, IMHO.

Paul


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## Tgace (May 2, 2005)

In my experience, people wait until they are "rolling" with a person before they try to use OC. OC is great in LE use when you know somebody is going to resist and can hit em with the stuff to gain compliance. In civilian use its good for when you have the "radar" up and perceive somebody as being a threat. Once you are actually fighting though, the OC isnt going to cause the guy to jump off of you and go rolling around with his hands over his eyes. Better "fight preventer" than "fight stopper" IMO. Effectiveness measurement in OC is in regards to it having an effect on somebody. That "effect" doesnt necessarily mean the guy is going to stop attacking you...

(unless you are trying to stop other people from fighting...spraying the whole lot of em does help break things up.  )


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## sgtmac_46 (May 4, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Also...on most animals OC will work well, from accounts I have heard.
> 
> However, if your going camping or in wilderness and would like to be more prepared, spend the 35-40 bucks and get a large sized Bear Spray. Bear Spray is basically OC but much, much stronger. It'll take out most animals and it will put out your average human for a week. DO NOT try to carry this stuff on the street, however. It is not only illegal (probably, at least it is in my state), but a bit excessive, IMHO.
> 
> Paul


War more warning about bear country.  Bear Guard and other bear specific OC products are excellent when sprayed directly on the bear and in his face.  Many people mistakenly think that means it is bear repellent, so they spray it around their tents and camps.  Ironically bears, while being repelled by direct spraying, are attracted to the scent of OC Spray.  If you spray OC around your campsite, it will actually draw bears who view OC spray like cats view catnip.  Again, use OC spray for directly defending against bear attacks, it is not, however, bear repellent.  A few people have discovered this fact in the middle of the night with a bear rolling around the front of their tent where they sprayed OC earlier in the evening.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 4, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> In my experience, people wait until they are "rolling" with a person before they try to use OC. OC is great in LE use when you know somebody is going to resist and can hit em with the stuff to gain compliance. In civilian use its good for when you have the "radar" up and perceive somebody as being a threat. Once you are actually fighting though, the OC isnt going to cause the guy to jump off of you and go rolling around with his hands over his eyes. Better "fight preventer" than "fight stopper" IMO. Effectiveness measurement in OC is in regards to it having an effect on somebody. That "effect" doesnt necessarily mean the guy is going to stop attacking you...
> 
> (unless you are trying to stop other people from fighting...spraying the whole lot of em does help break things up.  )


Good point.  Waiting until you are actually in contact with someone will likely result in you contaminating yourself as well as the attacker.  For my part, this isn't a problem, as residual OC contamination has little effect on me.  I've used OC spray numerous times as a grappling tool when struggling with suspects.  I usually don't mind how much OC Spray I get on me, as long as I get it on the other guy.  That being said, however, I even warn my officers against this.  Most people have an extremely adverse reaction to OC Spray, especially the first time they are exposed.  You don't want to wait until you are struggling with someone to find out you shut down when exposed to OC Spray.


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> War more warning about bear country.  Bear Guard and other bear specific OC products are excellent when sprayed directly on the bear and in his face.  Many people mistakenly think that means it is bear repellent, so they spray it around their tents and camps.  Ironically bears, while being repelled by direct spraying, are attracted to the scent of OC Spray.  If you spray OC around your campsite, it will actually draw bears who view OC spray like cats view catnip.  Again, use OC spray for directly defending against bear attacks, it is not, however, bear repellent.  A few people have discovered this fact in the middle of the night with a bear rolling around the front of their tent where they sprayed OC earlier in the evening.



Wow! thats nuts...I never heard of that! I wouldn't think anyone would view at a bear repellant, but I guess if you just don't know....


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## KenpoTex (May 6, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Many people mistakenly think that means it is bear repellent, so they spray it around their tents and camps. Ironically bears, while being repelled by direct spraying, are attracted to the scent of OC Spray.


 :roflmao: that's hilarious..."see honey, this stuff is like 'Off' for bears"


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## Peter Steeves (May 6, 2005)

I've made it a point to spray myself once every few months, and then do some training (punch, kick, roll, etc). It is not something I really think is a lot of fun, but it's not all that bad, really. The first time was the worst, but more from the anticipation/not-knowing than the discomfort of the chemical. I will say it would definately distract me severely in an altercation had I never been exposed to it at all.

I don't require this of any of my martial arts students, but I do bring it up in conversation. 

Also, I carry versions of it all over the place, where appropriate. I even have a key-chain type clipped onto my dog's leash, so that the "handle" during a walk around the block is actually pepper spray. You can't help but have it in your hand that way!


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## Shaolinwind (May 6, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> Thought i'd drop a post and ask about folks experiences with OC Sprays, if you carry it, if you've ever used it (Civilian or Law Enforcement). I've got a pretty extensive background with OC, which i'll share, but first I want to hear anyone else's experiences with Pepper Sprays. Do you carry it, have you ever been exposed to it, what did you think, that sort of stuff.


We keep some in the car, and Samantha keeps some in her purse.  After reading about events where pepper spray failed to fully deter an assailant I bought her a compact stun gun to go with it.. The idea being to blind the sucker then shock him into full submission if he decides to start swinging fists.


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## Tgace (May 6, 2005)

Be careful with OC and stun weapons. Some mixtures are flamible....zap! Foooom!


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## Shaolinwind (May 7, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Be careful with OC and stun weapons. Some mixtures are flamible....zap! Foooom!


LMAO! That would most CERTAINLY deter further attack.


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## dearnis.com (May 7, 2005)

There were some cases of alcohol-based propellant OC + taser a few years back....bad from liability viewpoint....yet somehow...never mind.
As "spray day" approached in the academy one of my buddies kept telling me how interetsed he was in seeing me get hit.  His theory...  "you love spicy food, you put tabasco and other stuff on everything; I bet it wont bother you."  Do NOT buy this line of thinking unless you regularly spice your eyeballs.
The stuff works sometimes, not others.  As noted above, application is often too little too late.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 10, 2005)

It might be worth noting, when investing in an OC Spray product, do some research. 

First thing to look at is the reliability of the product, foremost. The leading way to measure the effectiveness of OC Spray is not the Percentage, but the SHU's (Scoville Heat Units). This is a system that's been used to evalute the heat of peppers for years, and it's commonly applied to OC Sprays. The higher the number, the hotter the product. This is a general rule, and there is some controversy over SHU's, but as a general rule, it seems to pretty reasonably equate to the degree of "heat" present in OC. If your OC product does not rate it's SHU's on the can, this might cause some concern about the nature of the product. 

An SHU of 2,000,000 would be the least I would carry. One of the most popular brands of law enforcement pepper spray going, First Defense, markets their product at 500,000 SHU, which is extremely mild. They brag that it is food grade pepper, a fact that I can personally attest too as i've eaten it before. 

Don't let the idea that lots and lots of police agencies carry it be a selling point. I personally believe that First Defense has a good marketing program aimed at administrators, but that's another story. This product, it has been my experience, is only 60% effective in the field. As evidence that i'm not just talking out of my rear about this number, take this study http://www.zarc.com/english/other_sprays/oc_strength/firstdefense.html

I've personally had suspects who have been sprayed by this product TELL me the next day (after they sobered up) that it was a liability as it had no appreciable effect. This has resulted in officers being injured because the product did not work as advertised. It is apparent that First Defense has become aware of the short coming of their product, as they have now unvieled a "hotter" brand of their product. Lets hope it's hotter than the first one. If so, the new First Defense product may be a useful contribution to the OC selection.

So, in short, any product 2,000,000 SHU or above is a good start. 

I personally carry Fox Labs OC, which has an SHU rating of 5,300,000. I have never had this product fail, and it has the most impressive performance of any OC product i've tested and used. I'd rate the reliability of Fox Labs OC in the field as greater than 90%. Also, if you order directly from Fox Labs, you'll probably deal directly with the owner, who's more than willing to discuss, at length, any issues about his product. You don't find that kind of customer service anywhere. Fox Labs costs a little more than most other products, but it works when you need it.

Other excellent OC Sprays are Zarc, Cap-Stun, Punch, Freeze, Body Guard, and a few others. 

There are also a new class of Defense Sprays out, which aren't technically OC, but synthetics. Two examples being PepperBall Brand OC, which utilizes a product called PAVA (Capsaicin II), and a Zarc product called VEXOR, which boasts an extraordinary SHU rating of 15,000,000 SHU! Again, though, these two products are relatively new on the scene, so my department has decided to take a wait and see approach to utilizing them. A neighboring department, however, has claimed extremely favorable performance from the VEXOR product (keep in mind, however, it replaced their long used First Defense stockpiles).

The other considerations when buying an OC product are type of spray (Stream, Cone, Mist/Fog,Foam), this will be dictated by the environment it's likely to be utilized in. If it will likely be outdoors, then the only choice is stream, as the other products are more susceptible to wind conditions.

In addition, size of the container will be a factor. This will be determined by type of carry (key chain, versus purse, versus pouch/duty gear,home use). Key chain size containers are fine if that's all you can carry. I have found that keychain applicators are unreliable. I profer at least Mark III sizes or larger. If home defense is the issue, a fire extinquisher size is PERFECT for hosing down the guy trying to steal your car.

Finally, reliability of the applicator. Some products are more reliable than others.

Hope this is helpful to someone. It represents several years of my experience dealing with these products. It is only my opinion on the matter, so take it for what's it worth.

As a final note, in reference to alcohol based propellents, I believe that it had been removed from nearly all human use solutions of OC.  You may still find it occassionally in solutions dedicated toward animal use.  The best way of determining if your OC is flammable is to spray it and light it.  If it will put out a flame, it's electronic restraint safe.


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## Cruentus (May 11, 2005)

Nice post, SGT Mac. Very informative.

I carry Fox Labs OC as well - that stuff is made right here in Michigan, you know!  :ultracool


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## sgtmac_46 (May 13, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Nice post, SGT Mac. Very informative.
> 
> I carry Fox Labs OC as well - that stuff is made right here in Michigan, you know! :ultracool


I'm always impressed when you call the company number, and the owner answers the phone.  He'll talk to you for hours about his product, he really believes in it.  It reminds me of the owner of Second Chance body armor back in the old days when he used to go around shooting himself in the vest.


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## redfang (Jun 16, 2005)

I get OCed and gassed two weeks from today.  Half my class got it today, while the other half qualified on our range so I go some idea as to how they do it.  For the OC, we get a good face full, then have to draw and extend our asp and deliver twenty strikes to a wavemaster, give it twenty kicks and then be able to draw down on a suspect.  For the gas, we go into our gas house in riot gear while rioters pelt us with tennis balls and the like, there is more to the gas scenario but I didn't get the details.  I'll post how it goes.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 16, 2005)

Soundes like the makings of a reality show


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## redfang (Jun 17, 2005)

No, just our police academy.


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## Tgace (Jun 17, 2005)

Eh..dont sweat it...it only sucks!


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## Cruentus (Jun 17, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Eh..dont sweat it...it only sucks!



Yea...literally don't sweat it....cause even after your cleaned up, you sweat, pores open, and there goes the effects all over again!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 19, 2005)

*


			
				Tulisan said:
			
		


			Yea...literally don't sweat it....cause even after your cleaned up, you sweat, pores open, and there goes the effects all over again! 

Click to expand...

 That's why, if i'm getting sprayed, I try and schedule the class in the winter. Nothing like pepper spray to make standing in a 20 mph wind at 20 degrees feel GOOD!!!*


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## jkdhit (Jun 19, 2005)

the only spray i've ever used was sabre military grade tear gas. i also make sure my girlfriend always carries one with her because she lives in a pretty bad neighborhood. i test her and my can every month just to make sure it's still releasing properly, i just ordered new cans just in case we're low on spray from all the testing. i've used it once because sometimes you're just too drained or want to resolve a street conflict with less danger to yourself. the spray is pretty strong, even once your spray it, you can smell it in the air and there's a light scent on your hands. the spray worked very well the one time i actually used it, the guy dropped and was down instantaneously.

 the only problem is some people have the misconception that expired sprays are more potent when the expiration date is actually a date for the compression, not the actual chemicals.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 22, 2005)

jkdhit said:
			
		

> the only spray i've ever used was sabre military grade tear gas. i also make sure my girlfriend always carries one with her because she lives in a pretty bad neighborhood. i test her and my can every month just to make sure it's still releasing properly, i just ordered new cans just in case we're low on spray from all the testing. i've used it once because sometimes you're just too drained or want to resolve a street conflict with less danger to yourself. the spray is pretty strong, even once your spray it, you can smell it in the air and there's a light scent on your hands. the spray worked very well the one time i actually used it, the guy dropped and was down instantaneously.
> 
> the only problem is some people have the misconception that expired sprays are more potent when the expiration date is actually a date for the compression, not the actual chemicals.


 We've tested Sabre.  It's suitably potent for the task.


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## Franc0 (Jun 22, 2005)

sgtmac, earlier you made a brief reference to "Pepper Foam". Awhile back I saw a demo of some on a dummy. From what I saw it was supposed to be much harder to neutralize due to the stickiness of the foam. Personally I thought it looked like cool method. Whats your take on pepper foam?

Franco


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## sgtmac_46 (Jun 26, 2005)

masterfinger said:
			
		

> sgtmac, earlier you made a brief reference to "Pepper Foam". Awhile back I saw a demo of some on a dummy. From what I saw it was supposed to be much harder to neutralize due to the stickiness of the foam. Personally I thought it looked like cool method. Whats your take on pepper foam?
> 
> Franco


There are actually three kinds of OC Sprays, they are Streams, Foggers and Foam. 

It's been my experience with Foam sprays that, just like the other two, it has pluses and minuses. 

Pluses:

1. It sticks to everything and forms a large coating on the face, thereby making it even more difficult to see.
2. Trying to wipe it off, wipes it in further.
3. It melts and streams, therefore being useful against someone wearing glasses or other eye protection (it will stream in to the eyes when sprayed at the forehead.

Minuses:

1. It can be carried by the wind more readily (and hence, back toward you given the right wind conditions)
2. It can be purposely wiped off and thrown (i've heard of this happening with suspects but i've never personally seen it.)

In short, I have found the PepperFoam to be good if in a controlled environment (i.e. prisons, jails, stores, or anywhere else in-doors away from wind conditions). The reason is based on PepperFoam's delivery system which is very similar to a fogger in that there is a cone, instead of a single stream.
Of course that having been said, wind conditions are the bane of all OC Sprays. 

I have personally been sprayed with streams and foggers. I have not personally had the opportunity to be sprayed with a foam, but when I do i'll let the forum know if there are any noticeable differences in the effects of the three. 

I can say that, between foggers and streams, foggers have been more effective in shutting down my ability to see, due largely to the fact that the mist allows more of the product to reach and saturate both of my eyes. This having been said, I still carry the stream due to it's increased range and resistance to wind conditions. 


Hope this helps.


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## jkdhit (Jun 26, 2005)

for me, i like sabre a lot. it's extremely potent, you don't even have to spray them in their eyes. a spray to the face is strong enough to immbolize anyone

 i like streams the most. even if there's a wind, the stream is strong enough to not get blown away as easily


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## redfang (Jun 30, 2005)

Well today was the day and it sucked!  After an exciting day of crowd control practicals, including breaking up an unruly group of firemen who were throwing tennis balls and other painful but not too harmful objects, I got a taste of both CS gas and OC spray.  The CS wasn't too fun.  It was a hot, sweaty day so my whole body pretty much felt like it was on fire. But still, it wasn't bad at all compared to the OC.  The exersize went like this: We closed our eyes and got a one second burst across the eyes and forehead.  Then we had to open our eyes.  We then had to run about 25 yards and deliver 10 left knee strikes and 10 right knee strikes to a pad.  We ran another 25 yards, drew and extended our asp and delivered 10 strikes from both sides to a pad.  We ran another 25 yards, drew (red guns were used for this.) on a surly defensive tactics instructor and had to get him on the ground.  Not easy as he didn't want to go easy.  So we had to keep our eyes open and on him for a good minute or so, giving strong verbal commands, avaiding having him get to close and taking our weapon etc until he complied.  Then and only then were we able to go and suffer through decon.  Some doctors from Wake Forest were doing a study so half our class decontaminated with water only and the other half used baby shampoo and water.  I got to use baby shampoo, but I don't think it helped all that much.  Here, five hours after getting sprayed my eyes are still somewhat irritated.  I was pretty useless for about 45 min and wasn't really up to driving for 90 min.  The stuff works.  Out of our class of 38 only one person showed any real resistance to the spray.


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## Cruentus (Jun 30, 2005)

Tough to do...but that sounds like good training! good job...

Paul :uhyeah:


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 1, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> Well today was the day and it sucked! After an exciting day of crowd control practicals, including breaking up an unruly group of firemen who were throwing tennis balls and other painful but not too harmful objects, I got a taste of both CS gas and OC spray. The CS wasn't too fun. It was a hot, sweaty day so my whole body pretty much felt like it was on fire. But still, it wasn't bad at all compared to the OC. The exersize went like this: We closed our eyes and got a one second burst across the eyes and forehead. Then we had to open our eyes. We then had to run about 25 yards and deliver 10 left knee strikes and 10 right knee strikes to a pad. We ran another 25 yards, drew and extended our asp and delivered 10 strikes from both sides to a pad. We ran another 25 yards, drew (red guns were used for this.) on a surly defensive tactics instructor and had to get him on the ground. Not easy as he didn't want to go easy. So we had to keep our eyes open and on him for a good minute or so, giving strong verbal commands, avaiding having him get to close and taking our weapon etc until he complied. Then and only then were we able to go and suffer through decon. Some doctors from Wake Forest were doing a study so half our class decontaminated with water only and the other half used baby shampoo and water. I got to use baby shampoo, but I don't think it helped all that much. Here, five hours after getting sprayed my eyes are still somewhat irritated. I was pretty useless for about 45 min and wasn't really up to driving for 90 min. The stuff works. Out of our class of 38 only one person showed any real resistance to the spray.


 That's good instruction.  The time to realize how you react to pepperspray is in training, not on the street.


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## Tgace (Jul 1, 2005)

I took Defense Tech's "less lethal operator" school. The stuff you mention sounds very similar. Good training.


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## redfang (Jul 1, 2005)

Here it is next day, my eyes are still a little irritated.  I'm noticing that they are pretty sensitive to light today.


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## jkdhit (Jul 3, 2005)

whyd they do a baby shampoo/water test? i thought it was proven that fresh air and cold water was the best way to treat it? ahh on a hot day like this, makes me want to run the hose without a nozzle, on my face


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## redfang (Jul 4, 2005)

Basically they did it because someone gave them grant money to do a study.  The spray has an oily content.  Water tends to run off of oil.  Soap can break the cohesion of the oil.  Baby shampoo isn't an irritant.  So after we completed our tasks, we were handed a bottle on the way to the hoses.  Half had pure water, half a solution of baby oil and water.  We weren't supposed to know which was which, but it wasn't hard to figure out.  The water was warm, which kind of sucked.  We had to use the provided bottle before we could use the hoses.  While all of this was going on, we had doctors asking us to rate, on a scale of 1 to 10  the pain in our eyes and difficulty breathing, before using the bottle and then at five minutes, ten, fifteen etc.  They also had little cups of baby shampoo available to wash the face with.  I had the soap in the bottle and used two or three of the cups.  I don't know if it helped or not.  It still really sucked and I was in a lot of pain, though not in the expected areas.  I think that I still had a fair amount of the CS particles on me and the water activated them.  Most of my pain, after the first 10 minutes was on my bare arms and the skin of my face.  My eyes weren't too painful, even though they were extremely sensitive even through the next day, and my breathing was fine, though I was burping really bad for about 10 minutes.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 4, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> Basically they did it because someone gave them grant money to do a study. The spray has an oily content. Water tends to run off of oil. Soap can break the cohesion of the oil. Baby shampoo isn't an irritant. So after we completed our tasks, we were handed a bottle on the way to the hoses. Half had pure water, half a solution of baby oil and water. We weren't supposed to know which was which, but it wasn't hard to figure out. The water was warm, which kind of sucked. We had to use the provided bottle before we could use the hoses. While all of this was going on, we had doctors asking us to rate, on a scale of 1 to 10 the pain in our eyes and difficulty breathing, before using the bottle and then at five minutes, ten, fifteen etc. They also had little cups of baby shampoo available to wash the face with. I had the soap in the bottle and used two or three of the cups. I don't know if it helped or not. It still really sucked and I was in a lot of pain, though not in the expected areas. I think that I still had a fair amount of the CS particles on me and the water activated them. Most of my pain, after the first 10 minutes was on my bare arms and the skin of my face. My eyes weren't too painful, even though they were extremely sensitive even through the next day, and my breathing was fine, though I was burping really bad for about 10 minutes.


Usually what happens is the face gets numb from the cold water of the water hoses, but the exposed skin areas of the arms usually aren't very well decontaminated.  I myself prefer the baby shampoo and water mixture for decon.  It does seem to get more of the oil residue off, though by that time the Oleoresin is in the skin so the effect of relief is not immediate.  

If I might ask, why type of OC Spray was used and what was your opinion of it's effectiveness?

As a side not about your burping, i'll tell you this little story.  The neighboring town has used First Defense pepperspray for several years, with extremely mixed success.  I told them they might want to change brands.  To illustrate this I took one of their cans and sprayed it directly in my mouth.  First Defense OC has never seemed much hotter to me than a habanero pepper, and i've performed this little demonstration several times before. 

It usually only burns the mouth for a few minutes, and it's not intolerable.  I usually don't even drink any water as the burning is not very intense.  The point of that story, however, is this...while spraying First Defense in my mouth doesn't incapacitate from the burning, it gives me violent hiccups nearly every time.  That is the most incapacitating thing about the spray is me hiccuping for 10 minutes at a time.  If refuse to perform this same demonstration with the OC Spray I currently carry.


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## redfang (Jul 4, 2005)

What I'm carrying doesn't look like a brand that has been mentioned already. It says it's  MK-4, there is a DA symbol under that.  And I see that it is put out by Defense Technology Federal Laboratories. I found it pretty effective.  I was able to fight through the effects for several minutes while I did my course, but was substantially hindered.  After a few minutes the effect was greater and while I could converse and get around I was mostly useless for 20 minutes or so and had significant lingering effects for the better part of an hour.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 5, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> What I'm carrying doesn't look like a brand that has been mentioned already. It says it's MK-4, there is a DA symbol under that. And I see that it is put out by Defense Technology Federal Laboratories. I found it pretty effective. I was able to fight through the effects for several minutes while I did my course, but was substantially hindered. After a few minutes the effect was greater and while I could converse and get around I was mostly useless for 20 minutes or so and had significant lingering effects for the better part of an hour.


Def Tec and First Defense are the same product produced by Federal Labs. 

It's been my experience that Def Tec is about 50% effective. We've had a few injuries as a result of failure of the product. The effect on "test subject" students, and the effect on real world conditions (i.e. intoxicated, drug impaired, angry, motivated, etc) are vastly different. 

I have tested and been exposed to Def Tec extensively...it's the very brand I have referred to eating. It's also one of the most widely used OC Sprays on the market. Federal has a good marketing program to administrators. 

What you said is telling...you were able to fight through the effects for several minutes. That's pretty typical on the street as well. Def Tec fails to produce quick impairment about half the time. Furthermore, the half not immediately effected by Def Tec are the dangerous half. 

I had an officer get in a bad spot with a subject he sprayed with Def Tec. There was no effect, and he got in a physical altercation with the guy that resulted in a dislocated finger. Other agencies near here have had similar failure rates. I've dealt with suspects who were sprayed and never experienced any real effects. 

The main issue I have with Def Tec (and the same reason it's popular to administrations) is what Def Tec refers to as "food grade" pepper spray. At 500,000 Scoville it is pretty darn weak. 

Am I saying that agencies shouldn't carry Def Tec? No, of course not (though I refuse to carry it myself). What i'm saying is that officers need to understand it's limitations. In addition to resulting in officer injuries, weaker OC Spray have resulted in increased suspect injuries by virtue of the fact that many times higher uses of force (such as the baton) have to be used subsequent to OC exposure.

I will say, the brand i've carried for several years, Fox Labs 5.3, has never experienced a similar failure. Of the numerous suspects i've had to use Fox on, I have had a 100% success rate of instant or near instant incapacitation, ranging from instant compliance, to the need of only soft empty hand control techniques to move them to a handcuffing position. Their combat effectiveness after exposure has always been reduced to only a fraction of what it was pre-exposure. 

In fact, i've had occassion to spray habitually violent suspects who the neighboring town (who carry First Defense) have sprayed on numerous occassions. The result of the repeated exposure to Def Tec was the belief in this suspects mind that he was immune to OC Spray. One exposure of Fox Labs product was near instant compliance, this despite the fact that he had been up for two days on crystal methamphetamine. 

He actually stated to me that he had never been exposed to anything like the OC Spray I was carrying and he admitted that he believed that he was immune to OC Spray as a result of exposure to Def Tec. 

I only say all this as a warning to other officers to know the limitations of the product they carry. If you, as an officer, choose to carry or are forced to carry a weaker formula on duty, you have to understand that some of them have a higher failure rate than others, and plan accordingly. 

Of course there is the possibility that any OC Spray can fail, and you need to have a plan for that eventuality, but I prefer 95+% effective over 50% at best. 

All of this is just my personal opinion based on my experience, so take it for what it is.  Lets just hope Federal Labs doesn't decide to sue me someday.  Of course if they do, truth is an affirmative defense.  I'll just spray myself with their product before my testimony and just keep on smiling.   

Good luck, and stay safe.


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## redfang (Jul 5, 2005)

Sgt. Mac, thanks for the advice.  The dept. I'm with frowns on officers carrying non-issued equipment, though many do.  I have a concern about lawsuits though if I used the non-reg OC, that the dept. might not back me.  I'll have to feel it out with those who have been around longer.  In the meantime, I'll be aware of the potential of failure.


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## Cruentus (Jul 5, 2005)

I'll back Fox labs as well; I know a bit about them as their home base is here in Michigan. They have a model out that has the highest SHU levels of any spray on the market, and that is what I'd recommend.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 6, 2005)

redfang said:
			
		

> Sgt. Mac, thanks for the advice. The dept. I'm with frowns on officers carrying non-issued equipment, though many do. I have a concern about lawsuits though if I used the non-reg OC, that the dept. might not back me. I'll have to feel it out with those who have been around longer. In the meantime, I'll be aware of the potential of failure.


 That's not suprising. Many larger departments strictly regiment what equipment can and cannot be used. Moreover, there is a group-think present in many large departments product procurement process that resists change vigorously. Use Federal Labs product if it's all you have, but understand it's limitations. I won't call it a bad product, but I will say it has an unacceptable failure rate for my tastes. Just keep in mind it's lower potency when using it, and plan accordingly for contigencies (i.e. empty-hand control, impact weapons, Tasers, etc.) That failure rate should be an even larger consideration when considered it for use against a suspect displaying lethal force of some kind.

As for the potential for lawsuit, it's a catch-22.  If you use a less potent product that is departmentally approved, you avoid the charge that you used a non-regulation product.  However, you open yourself up to other issues involving excessive force if the lower level of force you use (i.e. OC Spray) fails to subdue a violent suspect.  A far greater likelyhood of charges of civil liability are present with baton strikes, for example, than with effective us of OC Spray.  I would suggest if your department allows the use of non-regulation OC Sprays, even if they generally frown on it, that you consider your options.  Fox Labs, Zarc, Vertec, and several other companies make a far more effective product than Federal Labs.  In addition, it will likely be the company sued for any allegation of product liability.  You will be judged on the objectionably reasonable standard of whether force was necessary.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 6, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I'll back Fox labs as well; I know a bit about them as their home base is here in Michigan. They have a model out that has the highest SHU levels of any spray on the market, and that is what I'd recommend.


In my opinion, it's an outstanding product and one of the best on the market.  It's ironic, when we first started researching different companies to determine what product we would switch to, we called Fox Labs number in middle of the night, probably close to midnight, hoping to get a recording telling us what their hours were.  Instead of a recording, we got the owner of the company who has the phone ring at his house when he leaves work.  We talked for 45 minutes with this guy on the phone about his product.  I was very impressed by the commitment this man has to produce a superior product and have talked with him on the phone several times since then.  You won't get that level of service anywhere else, and to couple that with a superior product is astounding.  I would recommend Fox Labs 5.3 formula to anyone looking for a highly effective OC Spray.  That's why I personally carry Fox Labs product.  

That having been said, there are other companies that produce highly effective products as well.  It is important in my opinion to research a product before relying on it to protect my life and welfare.  You wouldn't go out and purchase the first cheap parachute you could find before jumping out of a plane?  Why buy just anyone's OC Spray without verifying it is effective.  It's important to do the research.


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## Tgace (Jul 6, 2005)

We carry Punch II M-3 OC. Made by Aerko International. 10% OC. 2 million SHU.


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## Cruentus (Jul 6, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> In my opinion, it's an outstanding product and one of the best on the market.  It's ironic, when we first started researching different companies to determine what product we would switch to, we called Fox Labs number in middle of the night, probably close to midnight, hoping to get a recording telling us what their hours were.  Instead of a recording, we got the owner of the company who has the phone ring at his house when he leaves work.  We talked for 45 minutes with this guy on the phone about his product.  I was very impressed by the commitment this man has to produce a superior product and have talked with him on the phone several times since then.  You won't get that level of service anywhere else, and to couple that with a superior product is astounding.  I would recommend Fox Labs 5.3 formula to anyone looking for a highly effective OC Spray.  That's why I personally carry Fox Labs product.
> 
> That having been said, there are other companies that produce highly effective products as well.  It is important in my opinion to research a product before relying on it to protect my life and welfare.  You wouldn't go out and purchase the first cheap parachute you could find before jumping out of a plane?  Why buy just anyone's OC Spray without verifying it is effective.  It's important to do the research.



Wow...that's dedication to your company. Can't beat that, especially in a superior product!


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 8, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> We carry Punch II M-3 OC. Made by Aerko International. 10% OC. 2 million SHU.


The Missouri State Highway Patrol went to Punch II after using Federal Labs First Defense MK-4 for several years.  So far they seem to be happy with Punch.  I've heard pretty good things about Punch as far as the effectiveness. 

I've been wondering about Aerko's OC/CS mixture product Freeze.  If anyone has any first hand "experience" with that kind of mixed product, it would be interesting to hear how the experience contrasts with straight OC.


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## Tgace (Jul 8, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> The Missouri State Highway Patrol went to Punch II after using Federal Labs First Defense MK-4 for several years. So far they seem to be happy with Punch. I've heard pretty good things about Punch as far as the effectiveness.
> 
> I've been wondering about Aerko's OC/CS mixture product Freeze. If anyone has any first hand "experience" with that kind of mixed product, it would be interesting to hear how the experience contrasts with straight OC.


Well. We dont carry it, but some agencies in my academy did. As we all had to be sprayed with our dept. approved spray, they had to take some. From the way they reacted Id say it looked pretty effective. :erg:


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## Spookey (Jul 25, 2005)

Dear All,

 I am proud to report that after having recently used the Feeze+P on a combatant individual, I had the opportunity to get hit with it myself.

 ............................................it works!

 Also, I agree with what has been said regarding First Defense products...I have had more incapacitating experience with bar soap!

Stay Safe,
SpOOkeY


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