# Question for mods re: challenges vs meet ups/forum ettiquette



## Eric_H (Jun 4, 2015)

Hello,

Lately I've been lurking and watching the drama unfold on some of the other threads in this subforum and the related Mod warnings/bannings etc. Looking at it, I'm a bit perplexed. I'm hoping one of the mods on senior members here can clear up my confusion.

1) When someone makes general claims of being superior, most original, knows secrets you don't etc, it's reasonable to ask for some sort of proof. Being we're martial artists, unless we're debating something that cannot be expressed physically, it seems reasonable to expect a physical demonstration. To not have one or not be open to meeting with someone to demo what you have seems to be starting a discussion in bad faith. Do we allow for that sort of thing here and as an open question - should we?

2) Offers to meet up can be made in both good faith and with ulterior motive, someone can interpret one as the other easily. As an example, someone I know here to be a pretty reasonable person in real life asked to meet up with another forum member to prove what was being presented as a superior method and the other forum member claims to have contacted the FBI in response. That doesn't seem to be reasonable without clarifying intentions - as far as the forum is concerned who is really at fault here?

3) We do our best I think to keep most conversations here civil, but discussions started in bad faith (I'm right and you're wrong and nobody can tell me otherwise, even with logic complex) should the originator still be protected under the "be civil" clause being that disregarding the opinions of others outright, well, isn't very civil to start with.

Just looking for clarification. Back to lurking (for the most part).

-Eric


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 4, 2015)

I am not a mod but I may be able to help a little.
Many times over the years I have said "my doors, come by and visit and we can exchange ideas and techniques."  This is not a challenge able it is an open invitation to practice. with someone new.

Now If I had said " come to my place and we'll see who walks out" or Stop by and lets see how good you really  are against someone who knows what he is doing" Then this way of saying things can be viewed as a challenge


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 4, 2015)

There's a difference between a demo and a challenge.  The challenge issues one that when it comes up is looked at by several moderators and mentors, discussed and weighed out.  -I- might see a challenge but someone else see something benign. If the decision is harmless it's allowed, if it's challenge it's a ban. 

1- Is setting up a demo allowed? Certainly. But when people start suggesting making sure wavers are signed, insurance paid up, blood being spilt, it's less 'demo' and more 'challenge'.

2- Without being privy to the discussion in question, I can't say. I've had enough people challenge me over the years, in some cases quite threateningly so. In some cases I've contacted attorneys and law enforcement, others not. So it depends.

3- Sounds like trolling.  That's a TOS violation and the mods eventually have the information and evidence to deal with it properly.  Just like in 'the real world', staying out of the line of fire between cops and criminals is a good idea.  Trolling a troll just makes more paperwork for the mods. Report the trolls, step back and let the staff do their jobs is the best bet.  It's not immediate or instant, but it keeps good members from getting infracted with the trash.


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2015)

It's hard to draw a bright line on some posts.  I (and I think other Staff would agree) try to look to the spirit of the offer.  Two people can have a friendly match to see who's better, or look to face each other in a tournament setting, and avoid the physical challenge.  But if there's that malicious tone or feeling to it...  That's a challenge.

We also will consider a poster's overall history.  If they're generally not a problem child... they're more likely to get the benefit of the doubt.  But if they've caused lots of disruption, and especially if they've been warned before...  We're more likely to read a challenge in a borderline post.  

So... looking at the specifics in the OP:

Setting up a demo or a chance to get together and show each other what you're talking about?  No problem, so long as the general tone is friendly experimentation.  Get the egos too involved, change the spirit to proving superiority rather than a friendly exchange?  That's a problem.
Let's meet up  -- I've called the FBI/told the mods/etc.  Pretty close to a textbook of that evil spirit... but not exactly there.  There's room for misunderstanding and that's why we generally discuss like this for a while before issuing a ban -- though a Mod can act independently when a serious and clear violation is seen. 
I'm right, you're wrong, and this thread is about proving it...  Like Bob said, probably trolling.

In the end -- we give people plenty of chances, and bans for this are pretty rare.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Many times over the years I have said "my doors, come by and visit and we can exchange ideas and techniques."  This is not a challenge able it is an open invitation to practice. with someone new.


I feel the same way too.

When I said "Let's spar/wrestle for 15 rounds.", I mean, "let's be training partner and develop/test our skill together". After 15 rounds of testing, you may win more than 7 rounds, or I may win more than 7 rounds. Either way, it will help us to re-adjust our training method so we can both benefit from each other.

Since I haven't be able to find any training partner near by where I live, I tried to knock on my next door neighbors and asked if they are willing to "spar/wrestle with me for 15 rounds". They all looked at me as if I came from another planet.

I just can't understand why "testing skill against each other" can be a bad idea. After all, MA is 2 persons arts. It cannot be trained "solo".


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I feel the same way too.
> 
> When I said "Let's spar/wrestle for 15 rounds.", I mean, "let's be training partner and develop/test our skill together". Since I haven't be able to find any training partner near by where I live, I tried to knock on my next door neighbors and asked if they are willing to "spar/wrestle with me for 15 rounds". They all looked at me as if I came from another planet.
> 
> I just can't understand why "testing skill against each other" can be a bad idea. After all, MA is 2 persons arts. It cannot be trained "solo".


Again -- it's about the attitude and spirit.  Working out together, seeing what I can compared to what you can do...  Not a bad thing at all.  But when the egos get out of hand, and it stops being about sharing and growing, and becomes all about proving I'm right/baddest ***...  Then allowing it to go on has lots of problems, starting with it not being "friendly" and ending with potential legal liabilities for being the medium through which an illegal fight, or even worse, was set up.


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## K-man (Jun 4, 2015)

Well Brian VanCise and I have agreed to meet up and step onto the mat together next month. I can certainly suggest you all come along to witness this amazing challenge. I'm even of the opinion weapons will be in play and that possibly, after July 12, only one of us will be still posting on MT.


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## Jake104 (Jun 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Well Brian VanCise and I have agreed to meet up and step onto the mat together next month. I can certainly suggest you all come along to witness this amazing challenge. I'm even of the opinion weapons will be in play and that possibly, after July 12, only one of us will be still posting on MT.


Post vid, or it didn't happen!


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## Jake104 (Jun 5, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Again -- it's about the attitude and spirit.  Working out together, seeing what I can compared to what you can do...  Not a bad thing at all.  But when the egos get out of hand, and it stops being about sharing and growing, and becomes all about proving I'm right/baddest ***...  Then allowing it to go on has lots of problems, starting with it not being "friendly" and ending with potential legal liabilities for being the medium through which an illegal fight, or even worse, was set up.


Good post! It is all about attitude. I've learned a lot from meeting people FTF on this forum. Gained two coaches from this forum. Thanks!


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## Jake104 (Jun 5, 2015)

You know I don't read agreement contracts. I usually just sign or click agree. So maybe the mods can answer a question I have? The two threads that went bad actually started out really well. Both COULD have been very interesting topics. What I think derailed the threads was pretty much no short of soliciting. They turned into a giant sales pitch/infomercial. Isn't that illegal? Most forums I go on have strict  policies for promoting/ selling items or services or even information without becoming a paying vender of the site?
Certain individuals I believe come on here solely to promote either themselves or there organizations. Rather than share ideas. Seems like a sneaky way around the rules?


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## Buka (Jun 5, 2015)

I'd love to meet anyone in my general area. Just to meet, eat a few pizzas and shoot the bull. Working out with each other would be okay, I love new or better ways of doing things, but the comradery of just hooking up is more important. Maybe we can get a group together some day.

Tshadowchaser and I hooked up this past winter about an hour from each of our homes. We went to a Martial Arts get together and we had a whole lot of fun. (They even had food there!) It was great to meet my friend in person.

As for the challenge stuff - how silly. And usually one party doesn't show up, must be a dog ate my homework type of thing.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 5, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Post vid, or it didn't happen!



I will definitely have some video of the seminar!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 5, 2015)

Bob and Jks9199 pretty much laid everything out.  If a post is reported as a challenge post we look at it, look at the thread, look at the members to determine if it really is one.  If it is one then that member is banned.  If it is not then generally a warning is placed, etc.  It is pretty easy to determine if the spirit of the post warrants a ban or not.


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## Steve (Jun 5, 2015)

K-man said:


> Well Brian VanCise and I have agreed to meet up and step onto the mat together next month. I can certainly suggest you all come along to witness this amazing challenge. I'm even of the opinion weapons will be in play and that possibly, after July 12, only one of us will be still posting on MT.


I've got money on you, K-man.  Don't let me down.


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## jks9199 (Jun 5, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> You know I don't read agreement contracts. I usually just sign or click agree. So maybe the mods can answer a question I have? The two threads that went bad actually started out really well. Both COULD have been very interesting topics. What I think derailed the threads was pretty much no short of soliciting. They turned into a giant sales pitch/infomercial. Isn't that illegal? Most forums I go on have strict  policies for promoting/ selling items or services or even information without becoming a paying vender of the site?
> Certain individuals I believe come on here solely to promote either themselves or there organizations. Rather than share ideas. Seems like a sneaky way around the rules?


Well... First, you really should read what you're agreeing to.  

But it would be pretty hard to somehow stop people promoting themselves or promoting ideas.  We do restrict outright commercial activities (like "Buy my new DVD) to Staff Members, Supporting Members, and those who have paid for the privilege.  But simply promoting your own opinions of training?  Well, that's kind of the point, no?

There are, in most arts represented here, a few people who are so forceful, insistent, or just plain nasty about promoting what they think that they end up derailing threads.  Some are more active, and more successful, than others.  They often cross multiple lines, and end up getting banned.  You, as a member, can fight them.  First -- use the RTM button.  That lets the Staff know that there's a problem.  We can't always read every post...  Second -- don't feed the trolls.  Don't encourage them, don't cooperate with them, don't let them derail that thread, and fight the urge to follow them into the rabbit hole.


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## wtxs (Jun 5, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Bob and Jks9199 pretty much laid everything out.  If a post is reported as a challenge post we look at it, look at the thread, look at the members to determine if it really is one.  If it is one then that member is banned.  If it is not then generally a warning is placed, etc.  It is pretty easy to determine if the spirit of the post warrants a ban or not.



Please let me know if I'm totally out in the left field ...

An challenge is not always obvious or blatant.  Some member of this forum and I had the unfortunate/unpleasant pleasure of keyboard battles with Hendrik on other forum.

When he tell others that  they can be "handled with ease", refer to the hand full of people he had bestow his new discoveries, in that particular context ... it sure sounds like an challenge to me.  If nothing else, he willfully inciting an riot, meaning causing others to issue counter challenges to have him prove or back up his claim.  Is this type of behavior acceptable?

I sounded the alarm when someone mentioned Hendrik's name few months ago (before he implanted himself here), that he will pollute and trash this forum as he had to others (that's only one of the reason why he's not welcome there any more).

If there is anyone person to be ban, or should I say shun IMHO, is quit obvious.  I would like to see all members put that to a vote.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 5, 2015)

Any MT members who are in the Lexington, Kentucky area are always welcome to come by and work out and share info. I offer the challenge that I will learn as much and have as much fun as is possible from the experience.


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## 23rdwave (Jun 5, 2015)

I practice Han Shi Yi Quan in Sacramento, California if anyone wants to throw down.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 5, 2015)

wtxs said:


> Please let me know if I'm totally out in the left field ...
> 
> An challenge is not always obvious or blatant.  Some member of this forum and I had the unfortunate/unpleasant pleasure of keyboard battles with Hendrik on other forum.
> 
> ...


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I agree with the thrust of the above post FWIW.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 5, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Certain individuals I believe come on here solely to promote either themselves or there organizations. Rather than share ideas.


The problem is when you try to share your idea, someone may ask:

- Who are you?
- What MA systems have you trained?
- Who is your teacher?
- ...

When you have mentioned your teacher's name, the "style" or "organization" may be dragged into the discussion.

I don't like to ask anyone to identify himself. But many times people would ask me:

- What make you think that you are qualified to answer OP's question?
- How much do you know about this MA system?
- Have you compete in tournament yourself?
- What's your competition record?
- ...

The discussion would get "personal" after that. So how can we avoid that?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2015)

Well...I challenge anyone to overpower my incredibly slow powers of Taijiquan.... I will slowly walk over and gracefully. and slowly. grab you and ever so slowly throw you to the ground....but it will be slow.... no fast moves allowed......


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## Steve (Jun 5, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Well... First, you really should read what you're agreeing to.
> 
> But it would be pretty hard to somehow stop people promoting themselves or promoting ideas.  We do restrict outright commercial activities (like "Buy my new DVD) to Staff Members, Supporting Members, and those who have paid for the privilege.  But simply promoting your own opinions of training?  Well, that's kind of the point, no?
> 
> There are, in most arts represented her, a few people who are so forceful, insistent, or just plain nasty about promoting what they think that they end up derailing threads.  Some are more active, and more successful, than others.  They often cross multiple lines, and end up getting banned.  You, as a member, can fight them.  First -- use the RTM button.  That lets the Staff know that there's a problem.  We can't always read every post...  Second -- don't feed the trolls.  Don't encourage them, don't cooperate with them, don't let them derail that thread, and fight the urge to follow them into the rabbit hole.


Excellent advice.  Highlighting posts by using the RTM function is a much more constructive way to go than to respond to a challenge in kind.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 5, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well...I challenge anyone to overpower my incredibly slow powers of Taijiquan.... I will slowly walk over and gracefully. and slowly. grab you and ever so slowly throw you to the ground....but it will be slow.... no fast moves allowed......


I don't think I'll take that risk. You guys are dangerous...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 5, 2015)

wtxs said:


> Please let me know if I'm totally out in the left field ...
> 
> An challenge is not always obvious or blatant.  Some member of this forum and I had the unfortunate/unpleasant pleasure of keyboard battles with Hendrik on other forum.
> 
> ...



As with any forum follow the TOS that members agreed to when they sign up.  It really isn't hard and actually pretty easy.  As to membership voting for a person to be banned that is not how MartialTalk works.  When a member violates the TOS then they will experience the appropriate response from the moderation team.


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## K-man (Jun 5, 2015)

Steve said:


> I've got money on you, K-man.  Don't let me down.


Mate big mistake! If you want to win money, back Brian. The bookies have him at 100 to 1. You'll only get evens on me.  I'm happy to take a dive, for a percentage.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 5, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As with any forum follow the TOS that members agreed to when they sign up.  It really isn't hard and actually pretty easy.  As to membership voting for a person to be banned that is not how MartialTalk works.  When a member violates the TOS then they will experience the appropriate response from the moderation team.


----------------------------------------
I agree- voting is irrelevant. Forums have changing and wandering participants.The other forum had no real moderation. Here the moderator have shown good sense.. but they are limited in their time.When someone
has gone overboard with repeated soliloquies , spams, sales pitches, incivilities and warnings have little effect-bounce them IMO..


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## jks9199 (Jun 5, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The problem is when you try to share your idea, someone may ask:
> 
> - Who are you?
> - What MA systems have you trained?
> ...


Allow me to refer you to The Rules at 1.10.2 and 1.10.3, and also 4.16.



Bob Hubbard said:


> *1.10.2 No Art bashing. *
> 
> No one art is "the best", no one "style" is the best. All have their strengths and weaknesses. Do your research and find what best fits your ability and need.
> 
> ...





Bob Hubbard said:


> *4.16 Official Policy on &#8220;Fraud&#8221; Busting and Credential Verification.
> 
> 
> 4.16.1 Fraud Busting*
> ...


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