# guns...the real martial art...



## billc (Aug 4, 2014)

In a post somewhere else someone said that martial talk is about martial arts and didn't understand why people would talk about guns...well, guns are in fact the tool of one of the most effective martial arts in the world, defensive pistol and rifle shooting, and so deserve an honored place in any martial,arts forum...unless of course you put the limit of "unarmed" in the category...

Why are they one of the best self defense weapons available to a martial artist...

Well, criminals use guns on average 11,000 times a year in he U.S. To commit murder...that is the average from the CDC, and considering they can actually count the bodies...it should be a fairly accurate number.

On average, law abiding citizens with legally owned and in many cases, carried guns, save lives over 100,000 times a year.  Now these self defense cases are in the real world, in actual violent encounters which are life or death situations and the criminal is actually shot, killed or captured. 

Now this number itself comes from groups who are opposed to people owning and carrying guns, I only point this out to point out that this number is a low count of how many times guns are used to save lives in actual fights.  It is low because in most cases of  self defense with a gun, the gun is not pulled out if the holster, it is displayed as a warning, or if it is pulled, no shots are fired.   Because no one is killed or injured, there is no number that can be plugged into a statistic on gun use.  that is why 100,000 lives saved by guns is a low number, and is actually much higher.

Also keep in mind that the number is low because you can't count crimes that never happen...for example...each criminal of the 100,000 that is stopped from attacking a victim who uses a gun, who is shot or captured by the victim, is stopped from creating more victims...on a temporary or more permanent basis...so again, the 100,000 lives saved using a gun is also low due to that fact in counting numbers...

How can we get an idea of how that works...there is a case where a woman with a concealed carry permit wasn't allowed to carry her gun on a college campus...she was raped at gun point 50 feet away from the college police station.  She told people that during the attack she could have stopped the attacker if she had had a gun...she was also a black belt in Tae Kwon Do.  this rapist went on to rape 3 more women and he murderd the third victim...that is why the 100,000 number is so low...if she had stopped the attacker with her gun three other lives would have been saved, first, from the trauma of violent rape and in the one case from actual,murder.

Think about that for a minute... Innocent, law abiding people, often times with little or no regular training, who may be small in size, elderly, facing a younger, stronger, more violent attacker, or outnumbered, or attacked from an ambush...still manage to stop attacks 100,000 times a year.

11,000 murders vs. 100,000 or more lives saved per year....in real world violent criminal attacks...what other unarmed martial art has that record in successful use...

That is why guns should always have a place in a martial arts forum...they and the arts that teach their use are one of the most effective real world martial arts that exist.


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## Steve (Aug 4, 2014)

As with most things, it really depends upon how you define "Martial Art."  Personally, I agree with you that the study of guns for self defense would absolutely qualify as a martial art, and the discussion of guns definitely belongs on a martial arts discussion forum.

I don't think that it needs to look like this in order to be considered a martial art, but that is kind of cool. 

[video=youtube_share;A2KJHysK6k8]http://youtu.be/A2KJHysK6k8[/video]


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## elder999 (Aug 4, 2014)

But it might look like this:





Or this:




NOTE: While most of his training modalities are solid, I'm not endorsing or recommending that anyone train with Gabe Suarez.*BUT*


billc said:


> Think about that for a minute... Innocent, law abiding people, *often times with little or no regular trainin*g, who may be small in size, elderly, facing a younger, stronger, more violent attacker, or outnumbered, or attacked from an ambush...still manage to stop attacks 100,000 times a year.
> 
> 11,000 murders vs. 100,000 or more lives saved per year....in real world violent criminal attacks...what other unarmed martial art has that record in successful use...
> 
> That is why guns should always have a place in a martial arts forum...they and the arts that teach their use are one of the most effective real world martial arts that exist.



I can't emphasize enough: you'e got to get training to care for, use and carry firearms.


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## billc (Aug 4, 2014)

> I can't emphasize enough: you'e got to get training to care for, use and carry firearms.​



I can't agree more...the more training, especially in actual self-defense with the gun is incredibly important...and helpful.  The point was made that compared to most martial arts of the empty hand nature, there are actual cases of people with very little regular training with a gun who use it successfully to defend themselves against violent attackers...in many cases these are elderly people, or women against larger male adversaries.

One of the stories I remember...a woman who was a senior citizen was woke up in her house by a teenage male criminal.  He forced her around her home to identify expensive items, and then took her back to her bedroom where he made it clear he was going to sexually assault her.  At this point, she said she remembered she had cash in a shoe box in her closet.  As she rummaged around in the closet, she turned around and shot him in the stomach...it was clear from the story that she didn't go to the range every week, and that the gun was her dead husbands.  There aren't many empty hand martial arts that could produce the same self-defense results...


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## Kurai (Aug 4, 2014)

Steve said:


> As with most things, it really depends upon how you  define "Martial Art."  Personally, I agree with you that the study of  guns for self defense would absolutely qualify as a martial art, and the  discussion of guns definitely belongs on a martial arts discussion  forum.
> 
> I don't think that it needs to look like this in order to be considered a martial art, but that is kind of cool.
> 
> [video=youtube_share;A2KJHysK6k8]http://youtu.be/A2KJHysK6k8[/video]



Watched Equilibrium yesterday, ironically enough.   I completely agree with your post as well as Elders.


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## billc (Aug 4, 2014)

To really see firearms in a cinematic sense...you have to go to John Woo...in particular...the movie "Hardboiled"

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104684/


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 4, 2014)

I would also agree that firearms training is a martial system and one that a modern practitioner of the Martial Sciences should learn from quality instructors.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 5, 2014)

Whilst I believe in the value of firearms as a self-defense weapon, and I agree with all the comments above about obtaining training, I offer a few caveats.

First, when a weapon is introduced into an altercation, the dynamics of that altercation change immediately and generally irrevocably.  In other words, unlike a fistfight or a shoving match, a brandished weapon is not likely to end with both parties mutually calling it quits.  Somebody is going to get seriously hurt or die now.  Not that such risk doesn't exist in unarmed combat, but when a weapon is introduced, the risk factor increases by a huge amount.

Second, a weapon in the hand can be as much a liability as a benefit.  When you brandish a weapon, you now have to defend that weapon, and you have only one hand to do so.  So you've taken away one of your tools (an open hand), substituted another, and now introduced the possibility that the weapon may be taken from you and used against you.

Third, the laws of self-defense in many places are much more strict about when a weapon can be legally employed as self-defense as opposed to unarmed self-defense in general.  Draw that weapon without legal justification and even if you walk away with your life, you may find yourself facing legal issues, from lawsuits to arrest and criminal prosecution.

I'm not saying people should not carry weapons for self-defense.  But they are not always appropriate and should not be considered the go-to way of settling all issues.  If you're going to go about armed, get training, practice to become proficient, and learn the laws regarding self-defense and use of deadly force where you live.  

A gun is not a magic wand.  You don't wave it around and everything gets better.  In fact, it's generally the opposite; guns may preserve your life in extreme situations, but situations are seldom extreme enough to justify them.  Consider your risk, consider your options, and choose carefully.  Guns are not the lazy man's way to effective self-defense.


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## Kurai (Aug 6, 2014)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Whilst I believe in the value of firearms as a self-defense weapon, and I agree with all the comments above about obtaining training, I offer a few caveats.
> 
> First, when a weapon is introduced into an altercation, the dynamics of that altercation change immediately and generally irrevocably.  In other words, unlike a fistfight or a shoving match, a brandished weapon is not likely to end with both parties mutually calling it quits.  Somebody is going to get seriously hurt or die now.  Not that such risk doesn't exist in unarmed combat, but when a weapon is introduced, the risk factor increases by a huge amount.
> 
> ...



As was mentioned by Brian and others....  Quality instruction from quality instructors aid in consideration of everything you mentioned.  All of your points are quite valid.


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## elder999 (Aug 6, 2014)

billc said:


> One of the stories I remember...a woman who was a senior citizen was woke up in her house by a teenage male criminal. He forced her around her home to identify expensive items, and then took her back to her bedroom where he made it clear he was going to sexually assault her. At this point, she said she remembered she had cash in a shoe box in her closet. As she rummaged around in the closet, she turned around and shot him in the stomach...it was clear from the story that she didn't go to the range every week, and that the gun was her dead husbands. There aren't many empty hand martial arts that could produce the same self-defense results...




Yeah, but calling that "real martial art" is kind of like calling the college kid who fought off a burglar with his wall-hanger, stainless steel katana a 'swordsman," isn't it?

In fact, I'd say it's almost the firearm equivalent of...





:lol:


Seriously, without training, it may be a tool that people wind up using, but it's not "the real martial art."

It's not martial art at all.


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## Kurai (Aug 6, 2014)

Formal studies of use of the katana do exist in several arts though.  As do exist formal studies of firearm usage.  Just like the katana in your example, it is just a tool.  Training with quality instructors help you get the most use of said tool.  Properly studied, firearm usage starts falling into being a component of, (borrowing Brian's wonderful term), Martial Sciences.


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## jks9199 (Aug 6, 2014)

There's also Hojutsu-Ryu...


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## elder999 (Aug 6, 2014)

Kurai said:


> Formal studies of use of the katana do exist in several arts though. As do exist formal studies of firearm usage. Just like the katana in your example, it is just a tool. Training with quality instructors help you get the most use of said tool. Properly studied, firearm usage starts falling into being a component of, (borrowing Brian's wonderful term), Martial Sciences.



My issue isn't with what billc is trying to say, but the way that he _insists_ on saying it. Anyone who has ever been to an IDPA or SASS event-as I have-recognizes that there are multiple layers of "martial artistry" to firearms.



jks9199 said:


> There's also Hojutsu-Ryu...



Indeed. Seem to recall posting something similar to a similar thread, not too long ago. :lol:


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## Tgace (Aug 6, 2014)

So..was every Samurai who carried a katana an "artist"?

What's the threshold between artist and non-artist? IMO there are many proficient and lethal weapon carriers who are not "artists".

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## Tgace (Aug 6, 2014)

Tgace said:


> So..was every Samurai who carried a katana an "artist"?
> 
> What's the threshold between artist and non-artist? IMO there are many proficient and lethal weapon carriers who are not "artists".
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Of course that's not to say that firearms training cannot be comapred to martial arts...Ive posted this here before.

http://tgace.com/2012/11/26/the-mystical-and-the-mundane/

However there is a risk with trying to "art-a-size" a currently used weapon system. Even Musashi..back in the day...had issues with calling swordsmanship "art".



> Today we see the arts for sale. Men sell their own selves as commodities. As with the nut and the flower, the nut has become less important than the flower. In this kind of strategy, both those teaching and those learning the way are concerned with flamboyant style and showing off their technique, trying to hasten the bloom of the flower with commercial popularization. They speak of "this Dojo" and "that Dojo". They are looking only for quick benefits. Someone once said "Amateuristic strategy is the cause of serious grief". That was a true saying.



For those who are metaphorically handicapped, the "flower" is flashy "art for arts sake" stuff and the "nut" is the "real world" useful stuff. That's the easy metaphor.

The more subtle one is that the nut shouldn't be "less" than the flower. The "flower"...the beauty of the art will come but you cant hasten the blooming through commercial effort, manufacturing rank, creating masterships, developing "artsy" techniques...etc.



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## Tgace (Aug 6, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> There's also Hojutsu-Ryu...



Is wearing a "GI" and adhering to a Karate like format required to turn a modern weapon into an "art"?

To quote Musashi again,



> Third is the gentleman warrior, carrying the weaponry of his Way. The warrior has to master the various properties and virtues of his different weapons. If a gentleman dislikes martial arts he will not appreciate the specific advantages of each weapon. For a member of a warrior house this shows a lack of culture.



"Mastering the various properties and virtues of his different weapons". IMO that's the key. Simply being proficient is a different thing. 

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## jks9199 (Aug 6, 2014)

Tgace said:


> Is wearing a "GI" and adhering to a Karate like format required to turn a modern weapon into an "art"?
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



I've got no direct experience with it.  What I've seen... I just can't say.  The little I've seen -- seems reasonably solid.  He's got the chops to have put something good together.

Did he need to put the "Martial-Artsy" trappings around it to teach a solid set of principles of combative gun skills as well as weapon retention, etc?  Nah.  But it seems he was comfortable with it.  Did it hurt?  Doubt it.


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## Tgace (Aug 6, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> I've got no direct experience with it.  What I've seen... I just can't say.  The little I've seen -- seems reasonably solid.  He's got the chops to have put something good together.
> 
> Did he need to put the "Martial-Artsy" trappings around it to teach a solid set of principles of combative gun skills as well as weapon retention, etc?  Nah.  But it seems he was comfortable with it.  Did it hurt?  Doubt it.



Seems kinda "flower" instead of "nut" to me. 

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## elder999 (Aug 6, 2014)

The way I was taught, "Craft" is the technical skills that can be......well, _taught._ An d "art" is an expression of self. 

When it comes to shooting, I'm a pretty fair "craftsman," and others are _artists_. I'm content with that-most people with firearms hardly even qualify as "craftsmen," and that-sadly-includes more than 50% of the cops I've shot with.....the "artists," though, have all been wondrous to behold.....even if their scores turned out lower than mine ,I recognized that I really wouldn't want to be against them in a gunfight....they'd be more relaxed, more....._present_, and I'd likely just wind up *dead*.....but with higher scores! :lfao:

ANyway, that's where I've always drawn the line-has nothing to do with uniforms or other accoutrements....except for the SASS....cowboy gear (or 20's gear!) rules!


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## Chris Parker (Aug 7, 2014)

elder999 said:


> Yeah, but calling that "real martial art" is kind of like calling the college kid who fought off a burglar with his wall-hanger, stainless steel katana a 'swordsman," isn't it?
> 
> In fact, I'd say it's almost the firearm equivalent of...
> 
> ...



This. Definitely this.



Kurai said:


> Formal studies of use of the katana do exist in several arts though.  As do exist formal studies of firearm usage.  Just like the katana in your example, it is just a tool.  Training with quality instructors help you get the most use of said tool.  Properly studied, firearm usage starts falling into being a component of, (borrowing Brian's wonderful term), Martial Sciences.



Use of the tool doesn't make it a martial art. Just picking up a sword and swinging it around doesn't make you a swordsman. Training a coherent, cohesive, uniform and unified, congruent, and codified approach to a particular contextual application of the tool, following a set of intrinsic principles and tactical applications, though&#8230; 



jks9199 said:


> There's also Hojutsu-Ryu...



Oh dear, is Hall still using the term "Soke"? I thought he was supposed to find a much more accurate, appropriate, and less offensive term&#8230; dammit&#8230; 

For reference:Modern Hojutsu - Martial Arts Planet

That said, there are genuine martial arts of gunnery&#8230; 



Tgace said:


> So..was every Samurai who carried a katana an "artist"?
> 
> What's the threshold between artist and non-artist? IMO there are many proficient and lethal weapon carriers who are not "artists".



The study of an art, rather than the study of some techniques. What makes it an art rather than just techniques? A lot of what I posted above covers the beginning of that&#8230; 



Tgace said:


> However there is a risk with trying to "art-a-size" a currently used weapon system. Even Musashi..back in the day...had issues with calling swordsmanship "art".



That's not actually what he was saying&#8230; in the slightest, really. He had no issue with calling any martial system an "art".



Tgace said:


> For those who are metaphorically handicapped, the "flower" is flashy "art for arts sake" stuff and the "nut" is the "real world" useful stuff. That's the easy metaphor.
> 
> The more subtle one is that the nut shouldn't be "less" than the flower. The "flower"...the beauty of the art will come but you cant hasten the blooming through commercial effort, manufacturing rank, creating masterships, developing "artsy" techniques&#8230;etc.



Er&#8230; no. That's not what he was saying, to be blunt. 

Out of interest, what translation is that? It's rather&#8230; odd&#8230; and misses the point quite a bit.



Tgace said:


> Is wearing a "GI" and adhering to a Karate like format required to turn a modern weapon into an "art"?



It was something that Fred Hall felt was important for his system&#8230; he had the (I'd say blatantly incorrect) idea that without it, people wouldn't recognise it as a martial art&#8230; hmm&#8230; 



Tgace said:


> To quote Musashi again,
> 
> "Mastering the various properties and virtues of his different weapons". IMO that's the key. Simply being proficient is a different thing.



Er&#8230; no.

But, to follow up, how does that Musashi's comment relate to the use of a firearm as a martial art? Are you suggesting that all martial artists need to "master" firearms as well, in order for them to be a "martial artist"?



jks9199 said:


> I've got no direct experience with it.  What I've seen... I just can't say.  The little I've seen -- seems reasonably solid.  He's got the chops to have put something good together.
> 
> Did he need to put the "Martial-Artsy" trappings around it to teach a solid set of principles of combative gun skills as well as weapon retention, etc?  Nah.  But it seems he was comfortable with it.  Did it hurt?  Doubt it.



I'd just point back to the linked thread earlier in this post&#8230; to my mind (and others), there are some very real issues with the structure and formation of this system&#8230; mainly through trying to artificially add in incongruent aspects and ideas, without understanding them properly in the first place. Fred Hall's firearms cred isn't in question&#8230; the guy's incredibly skilled and highly respected in that regard. But the mess he came up with has some real developmental issues&#8230; they might have been addressed (it was indicated that some, at least, were being looked at in the thread above), but I can' speak to that.

So, did it hurt? Yes. See the linked thread for examples as to how.



elder999 said:


> The way I was taught, "Craft" is the technical skills that can be......well, _taught._ An d "art" is an expression of self.
> 
> When it comes to shooting, I'm a pretty fair "craftsman," and others are _artists_. I'm content with that-most people with firearms hardly even qualify as "craftsmen," and that-sadly-includes more than 50% of the cops I've shot with.....the "artists," though, have all been wondrous to behold.....even if their scores turned out lower than mine ,I recognized that I really wouldn't want to be against them in a gunfight....they'd be more relaxed, more....._present_, and I'd likely just wind up *dead*.....but with higher scores! :lfao:
> 
> ANyway, that's where I've always drawn the line-has nothing to do with uniforms or other accoutrements....except for the SASS....cowboy gear (or 20's gear!) rules!



I'd more take the term "art" here as derived from "artisan"&#8230; or "craftsman", to use an alternate term. In other words, in the context here, an art is a craft is an art is a craft.


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## MattofSilat (Aug 7, 2014)

I do not mean to offend anyone, which I undoubtebly will considering what this Forum Section is, but I do not think of Guns as a Martial Art at all. 

I have no actual reasoning behind this, I just don't. Maybe it's because I do not consider them to require a lot of skill in many circumstances (Just my opinion). For example, to shoot somebody with a pistol at close range, you need to point the gun at them and press a button. Then you win. The previous post about Hand-to-Hand into Gun tactics, I consider to be a bit of a cheaper shot (Especially when not used against a violent attacker who is targeting you with intent to commit a crime) . It's the same as grappling on the ground in a petty bar fight, then whipping out a knife to shank them a few times.

I don't really know why I think this way. I suppose it's almost because guns could be considered 'overpowered' (Press a Button, opponent is on the ground) and because anybody can use them. This is not to say that it doesn't take skill to shoot with extreme accuracy or over long ranges, I just do not consider it a martial art.

EDIT: I think I now understand why. It's the same reason I do not consider Kajukenbo or MMA as Martial Arts. They have no Art to them, it is purely Martial, if that makes any sense at all. There's no spiritual side, no expression of anything apart from the will to hurt somebody for whatever reason. Any single Martial Art should have something like this in my opinion, and all Martial Arts (Not Martial Sports such as Boxing) seem to. Karate, Jujutsu, Aiki-Jujutsu, Silat, Kendo, etc,etc. I don't really know where I'd classify Firearms, probably in the same category as Krav. Meaning, I have no idea where. 

Just my take on it.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 7, 2014)

Morishige Ryu Hojutsu





Seki Ryu Hojutsu





Yo Ryu Hojutsu





Morishige Ryu again&#8230; gotta have them performing embu in yoroi!

Fun, and very LOUD demonstrations from these guys&#8230; and real "gun" martial arts.


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## Tgace (Aug 7, 2014)

The issue with modern firearms training paradigms is the way its conducted...and the way people imagine it...IMO.

Sure, you can lay down 1k to spend the weekend shooting with some top tier special forces gun guru and walk away with a certificate stating that you passed "tactical gunfighter level 1". But ultimately what does that mean? IMO a local NRA taught class backed up by constant and consistent PRACTICE is just as valid and a hell of a lot cheaper.

Too many people spend a lot of money hopping around to different "seminar style" training schools but don't put in the 2-3 days a week "on the mat"....to make a MA metaphor.

There is this trend in firearms training to show off your school certificates like you are displaying your status by driving an expensive sports car. 

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## Tgace (Aug 7, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> I do not mean to offend anyone, which I undoubtebly will considering what this Forum Section is, but I do not think of Guns as a Martial Art at all.
> 
> I have no actual reasoning behind this, I just don't. Maybe it's because I do not consider them to require a lot of skill in many circumstances (Just my opinion). For example, to shoot somebody with a pistol at close range, you need to point the gun at them and press a button. Then you win. The previous post about Hand-to-Hand into Gun tactics, I consider to be a bit of a cheaper shot (Especially when not used against a violent attacker who is targeting you with intent to commit a crime) . It's the same as grappling on the ground in a petty bar fight, then whipping out a knife to shank them a few times.
> 
> ...



http://tgace.com/2012/11/26/the-mystical-and-the-mundane/



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## Tgace (Aug 7, 2014)

elder999 said:


> The way I was taught, "Craft" is the technical skills that can be......well, _taught._ An d "art" is an expression of self.
> 
> When it comes to shooting, I'm a pretty fair "craftsman," and others are _artists_. I'm content with that-most people with firearms hardly even qualify as "craftsmen," and that-sadly-includes more than 50% of the cops I've shot with.....the "artists," though, have all been wondrous to behold.....even if their scores turned out lower than mine ,I recognized that I really wouldn't want to be against them in a gunfight....they'd be more relaxed, more....._present_, and I'd likely just wind up *dead*.....but with higher scores! :lfao:
> 
> ANyway, that's where I've always drawn the line-has nothing to do with uniforms or other accoutrements....except for the SASS....cowboy gear (or 20's gear!) rules!



A buddy of mine once said that maybe modern western weaponcraft would be better served with a journeyman/craftsman/master craftsman paradigm vs an eastern martial arts model.

Interesting.

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## Chris Parker (Aug 7, 2014)

Tgace said:


> the mystical and the mundane | the things worth believing in



Hi, Tgace,

I've read your blog post about a dozen times now, and to be frank, I'm having trouble seeing your argument. I get your question, but not your argument against (or for) it&#8230; can you elaborate on it at all?


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## Tgace (Aug 7, 2014)

Just throwing this in on this topic....

http://tgace.com/2011/10/26/how-dedicated-are-you/

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## Chris Parker (Aug 7, 2014)

Okay&#8230; and by that you mean? Are you saying that dedication and repetition is the defining aspect?


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## Tgace (Aug 7, 2014)

Tgace said:


> The issue with modern firearms training paradigms is the way its conducted...and the way people imagine it...IMO.
> 
> Sure, you can lay down 1k to spend the weekend shooting with some top tier special forces gun guru and walk away with a certificate stating that you passed "tactical gunfighter level 1". But ultimately what does that mean? IMO a local NRA taught class backed up by constant and consistent PRACTICE is just as valid and a hell of a lot cheaper.
> 
> ...



This post reminded me of this:

http://tgace.com/2012/01/02/what-exactly-do-you-think-you-are-doing/



> Some  certainly not all  civilian training centers draw students by telling them how after only a few days of training, they will become as good a shooter as a SWAT cop or a Navy SEAL. Yes, Front Sight, Im looking at you. Even when this is not stated outright, it is implied  most often not by the instructors, but by the students. For some people who have never been in the military, and are seeking a little excitement, putting on all the gear and getting on line to practice shooting drills is a really fun way to spend a weekend. I certainly dont wish to put down what they have chosen to do too much, for as I said above, anyone who wants to own an AR-15 should know how to use it. However, while there is a massive jump in skills and proficiency after the first few training courses, the 5th, 10th, or 15th course is of relatively little value.



The conversation with a few MIL types in the comments section of that blog post is kinda interesting too....

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## MattofSilat (Aug 8, 2014)

Tgace said:


> the mystical and the mundane | the things worth believing in
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



You didn't answer my post. I'm not saying what you should or should not believe, and I'm not talking about martial skills. Your response suggests you that's what you thought I meant.

What do you think the 'Art' section of 'Martial Arts' means? Being able to shoot your Pistol quickly? I disagree. I think it is about Self Expression, and sometimes philosophy or religion. I never said that I think Firearms training is 'less' than Martial Arts, I simply said that there aren't the same thing.

That is my definition of Martial Arts (Well, I assume you would already know the definition for 'Martial' (Skill, etc)), which Firearms does not fit into. Therefore, it's not a Martial Art.

Plus, I personally find Firearms pretty boring. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what right I have to talk on this front, but Warfare seems a lot more boring with people standing a few hundred meters away from each other, pointing the gun towards the opponent every now and again before pressing a button. If the opponent happens to pop up then, he's dead. No chance. Skill often isn't taken into account. If a burglar raids a house with a gun  it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he presses a button and they die. The times when it does take skill are normally in sports or at long ranges, which rarely happens outside of War.

I know that's how the world is, I just dislike that aspect.


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## Tgace (Aug 8, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> That is my definition of Martial Arts (Well, I assume you would already know the definition for 'Martial' (Skill, etc)), which Firearms does not fit into. Therefore, it's not a Martial Art.



Your post is full of inaccuracies but lets start with this one.

 mar·tial adjective \&#712;mär-sh&#601;l\

: of or relating to war or soldiers

Full Definition of MARTIAL

: of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior

: relating to an army or to militarylife

: experienced in or inclined to war : WARLIKE 

Martial arts are the skills and techniques of "war" focused into a methodological craft of systematic fighting.

A firearm is a tool no different from a sword or a knife when it comes to displaying skilled use vs unskilled or simply "proficient" use.

If you believe that skilled use of a firearm is simply pulling a trigger you need to show me some video of how easy it is for you to do what that shooter in that video did.

And firearms have triggers that fire them...not buttons.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 8, 2014)

That's as may-be, Tgace, but it doesn't answer Matt's questions (or mine, for that matter).

How are you defining "martial art"? Is it just "skill with a weapon", or is there more to it than that? Can I call myself a martial artist just because I've gotten some skill in an area, or is there something required beyond, or in addition to that? Is it generic and general, or a more specific concept?

And what have your blog posts really had to do with what's been discussed? I find it hard to see the connection, other than tangental, to the conversation happening around them, hence my request for clarifications...

Oh, and which translation for Gorin no Sho were you using earlier again?


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## Tgace (Aug 8, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> Plus, I personally find Firearms pretty boring. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what right I have to talk on this front, but Warfare seems a lot more boring with people standing a few hundred meters away from each other, pointing the gun towards the opponent every now and again before pressing a button. If the opponent happens to pop up then, he's dead. No chance. Skill often isn't taken into account. If a burglar raids a house with a gun  it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he presses a button and they die.



If a burglar raids a house with a kitchen knife and stabs the owner to death is that an "art"? What about knife use in Arnis/Kali/Etc? is that an art?

If someone clubs someone to death with a stick is that an art? How about staff training in Kung-Fu? Is THAT an art?

Some street thug shoots a mugging victim at close range with a rusty .22....

vs. this.






( i especially like the blindfolded last frame of reference shot)

I'd call that degree of skill, efficiency and mastership of ones weapons a display of "Art" as much as a display of something like this is.


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## jks9199 (Aug 8, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> Plus, I personally find Firearms pretty boring. I'm not a soldier, so I don't know what right I have to talk on this front, but Warfare seems a lot more boring with people standing a few hundred meters away from each other, pointing the gun towards the opponent every now and again before pressing a button. If the opponent happens to pop up then, he's dead. No chance. Skill often isn't taken into account. If a burglar raids a house with a gun  it doesn't matter how skilled he is, he presses a button and they die. The times when it does take skill are normally in sports or at long ranges, which rarely happens outside of War.
> 
> I know that's how the world is, I just dislike that aspect.



Someone trying to kill you is seldom boring... and if you ever reach the point where it is, you may want to rethink your patterns of life choices.  Doesn't matter if it's with a gun, a knife, a rock, or their bare hands.  

Even then, marksmanship is a skill that takes a lot of training and practice.  The seven fundamentals of marksmanship are stance, grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger press, breath, follow through.  You might note that there's some correlation to "regular" martial arts training there.  To develop good shooting skills, you have to practice.  A lot.  And then, to do combative shooting, you have to adapt those principles to a much more dynamic situation, adding things like drawing and presenting the weapon and practicing weapon retention.  Again -- some overlap with "regular" martial arts training, no?

That said -- you have an interesting idea to define the art aspect of martial arts.


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## Tgace (Aug 8, 2014)

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/17...hing-you-never-actually-do-9.html#post1567470


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## jks9199 (Aug 8, 2014)

Incidentally... Here's a decent article about the fundamentals.  Matt, you might read it, and compare it with martial arts training.  I think you just might find a lot of common themes, as well as an appreciation of how much more there is to shooting than simply pushing a button.


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## Buka (Aug 8, 2014)

Matt - Shooting someone is not as easy or casual as you seem to  think. The reason it may seem so with mass murderers, serial killers ect  is because they're mentally scrambled. Taking life is not an easy line  to cross.

As for guns being part of an Art, I guess it  depends. I believe if an Art, or a particular dojo or instructor,  teaches any form of handgun disarming to advanced students, those  students need to take a firearm safety course from a certified  instructor, then spend more than a little time on the range learning to  shoot with certified instructors. Not just from a liability standpoint,  but from a tactical one. Otherwise I think the disarm training does more  harm than good.

So...if the above scenario is in place, I believe that "guns" are now a part of that particular dojo or organizations Art.

Matt, brother, a couple of things...most shootings are at close distances, not long range. And believe it or not, it takes great skill to do it properly in a legal sense - as opposed to a hit or a drive by.  And, bro, it's a trigger. Thank God Roy Rogers didn't name his horse _Button_.


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## Tgace (Aug 8, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Incidentally... Here's a decent article about the fundamentals.  Matt, you might read it, and compare it with martial arts training.  I think you just might find a lot of common themes, as well as an appreciation of how much more there is to shooting than simply pushing a button.



Exactly. And when you get to some of the advanced issues:






Fighting around vehicles like that incorporates everything from ballistics to positional shooting and effective use of cover. Just shooting through the car windshield is more than "point and press". Do you know what the deflection of the glass will do to your shot? Shooting with your weapon on the side...do you know what that means regarding accuracy?

Ever consider the variations involved in simply reloading a pistol?

Just like fighting at an "art level" is more than swinging ones fists and feet...so is shooting at an advanced level.


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## Tgace (Aug 8, 2014)

Buka said:


> And, bro, it's a trigger. Thank God Roy Rogers didn't name his horse _Button_.



Video gaming reference?

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## MattofSilat (Aug 9, 2014)

It appears that my viewpoint has been changed.

By the way, the reference to 'pressing a button' was designed to oversimplify it in order to back up my point, I know it's a trigger xD. Just making that clear.

That most recent video by Tgrace got the issue across more than anything else, I didn't realize (Or didn't acknowledge) the number of factors that come into it.


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## Tgace (Aug 9, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> It appears that my viewpoint has been changed.
> 
> By the way, the reference to 'pressing a button' was designed to oversimplify it in order to back up my point, I know it's a trigger xD. Just making that clear.
> 
> That most recent video by Tgrace got the issue across more than anything else, I didn't realize (Or didn't acknowledge) the number of factors that come into it.



To be fair...all those factors DON'T come into it for many people. 

Just like some people are "artists" with a knife and some are simply stabbers. 

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## Tgace (Aug 9, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> It appears that my viewpoint has been changed.
> 
> By the way, the reference to 'pressing a button' was designed to oversimplify it in order to back up my point, I know it's a trigger xD. Just making that clear.
> 
> That most recent video by Tgrace got the issue across more than anything else, I didn't realize (Or didn't acknowledge) the number of factors that come into it.



And when you get beyond the mechanics of operating the weapon system and look into the tactics involved in actually fighting with a weapon.....

http://tgace.com/category/tactical-preschool/

The "art" involved becomes a little more analogous to what you would read about sword fighting in the fire book within the Book of Five Rings.

http://www.bookoffiverings.com/FireBook.htm

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## drop bear (Aug 9, 2014)

MattofSilat said:


> It appears that my viewpoint has been changed.
> 
> By the way, the reference to 'pressing a button' was designed to oversimplify it in order to back up my point, I know it's a trigger xD. Just making that clear.
> 
> That most recent video by Tgrace got the issue across more than anything else, I didn't realize (Or didn't acknowledge) the number of factors that come into it.




Like anything there are layers. Like anything pressing the button is not the art. The art is being in position to be able to press the button. In theory there should have been all of this ambush counter ambush involved before the gun is even drawn.


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## Tgace (Aug 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Like anything there are layers. Like anything pressing the button is not the art. The art is being in position to be able to press the button. In theory there should have been all of this ambush counter ambush involved before the gun is even drawn.



Pressing the button can be an art in itself if you are talking about firing (and hitting) while on the move...while shooting from various positions....striking at longer ranges against moving targets..etc.

Much like the "art" seen in swordsmanship...






Is different from...






Not all "button pushing" is created equal.



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## drop bear (Aug 10, 2014)

Tgace said:


> Pressing the button can be an art in itself if you are talking about firing (and hitting) while on the move...while shooting from various positions....striking at longer ranges against moving targets..etc.
> 
> Much like the "art" seen in swordsmanship...
> 
> ...




Tactical vs technical?


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## Hanzou (Aug 10, 2014)

I certainly view the use of guns as a martial art. However, I dislike what gun culture has done to American society as a whole. You have kids who kill other kids with guns because they think its cool to play with a pistol. You have teenagers getting into fights, and then pulling out guns to settle disputes. You have people paranoid to the point where they feel that they need to bring assault rifles into Walmart or McDonald's in order to feel safe.

Despite all this, I refuse to keep a gun in my house. The risk outweighs the benefits.

I dislike where our society is headed. Hopefully cooler, more sensible heads can prevail.


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## Tgace (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You have people paranoid to the point where they feel that they need to bring assault rifles into Walmart or McDonald's in order to feel safe.



Eh....most of that is about making a political point more than it is about "feeling safe".

And all the tragedies aside...statistically we are in one of the safest periods of history. 

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## elder999 (Aug 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Despite all this, I refuse to keep a gun in my house. The risk outweighs the benefits.



?

"The risk" of *what*, exactly?


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## drop bear (Aug 11, 2014)

elder999 said:


> ?
> 
> "The risk" of *what*, exactly?



Some idiot getting hold of it and shooting his face off.


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## elder999 (Aug 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Some idiot getting hold of it and shooting his face off.


?
Okay-more confusion. To whom would you be referring  as "some idiot?"


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## drop bear (Aug 11, 2014)

elder999 said:


> ?
> Okay-more confusion. To whom would you be referring  as "some idiot?"



Anyone who is not responsible enough to be using a weapon.


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## billc (Aug 11, 2014)

> You have kids who kill other kids with guns because they think its cool to play with a pistol. You have teenagers getting into fights, and then pulling out guns to settle disputes..



This isn't a gun problem but societal and political policies that create those attitudes.  Those issues, however, must be discussed on the sister site...

The guys carrying rifles into walmart aren't paranoid, they are trying to make a political statement...


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## elder999 (Aug 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Anyone who is not responsible enough to be using a weapon.



So you're saying Hanzou is irresponsible, and that's why the risk is too great for him to have a weapon in his home?

Or is it that he's responsible enough to recognize that he isn't responsible enough to be using a weapon?


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## Tgace (Aug 11, 2014)

One of the better "Sensei" in the Martial Art of the Gun out there...Travis Haley.






Tell me you cant see comparisons there to any other martial art you have been taught.....


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