# Nitpick, I wont take it personally, I promise.



## Nobody Important (Jun 5, 2017)

This isnt the greatest demo out there, but one that I think was done better than most. It shows flank to inside control with resistance and explanation breakdown. Are there things that could have been done better? Sure, based on our personal preferences, but at least we get to see in this video the actions being performed in real time without having to imagine it. Nitpick away, lol.


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## KPM (Jun 5, 2017)

Good example of "getting the angle" very similar to what is done in TWC!


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## Headhunter (Jun 5, 2017)

Interesting there's a lot of kenpo type movements in there that I recognise. It's good to work like your doing but I'd say you should also do proper weapon placement minus the power so you can put the right attack in those spaces. Not saying you don't just a point


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## Nobody Important (Jun 5, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Interesting there's a lot of kenpo type movements in there that I recognise. It's good to work like your doing but I'd say you should also do proper weapon placement minus the power so you can put the right attack in those spaces. Not saying you don't just a point


Just for clairification this isn't a video of me, my branch or anyone I know. That being said I agree about the weapons, though I would not reduce power along with it. There are many traing devices that reduce risk of injury ,that can be bought or made, that allow for full throttle training.


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## Cephalopod (Jun 5, 2017)

Okay, you asked me to nitpick. Happy to indulge.

Did you notice how widely the defender's feet get separated in the first onslaught. This severely limits his side to side mobility.
If you need to lunge to the side, bring both legs with you. You might need them.

Good training exercise, tho'.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 5, 2017)

Cephalopod said:


> Okay, you asked me to nitpick. Happy to indulge.
> 
> Did you notice how widely the defender's feet get separated in the first onslaught. This severely limits his side to side mobility.
> If you need to lunge to the side, bring both legs with you. You might need them.
> ...


I rewatched it because I didn't pick up on it the first time. Now I'm going to nitpick, it was a pefect missed opportunity to sweep the leg. 

Great, now I have "Sweep the leg Johnny!" stuck in my head.


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## Eric_H (Jun 5, 2017)

My 2c from watching the first 30 sec.

This is clearly a demo, the guy in the gear obviously has no intention of trying to hurt the person practicing, and sadly I think in doing so he is doing the "WC" guy a disservice.

There wasn't a lot of bridging work, just a general sense of rushing in. While that type of smothering tactic can work, it'll get you clobbered against a decent counterpuncher, or if the guy doesn't "give up" as you hit him. 

The palm strikes in the beginning are also delivered at full extension, it's clear he's trying to not hurt the guy vs land a good strike.


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## Martial D (Jun 5, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> This isnt the greatest demo out there, but one that I think was done better than most. It shows flank to inside control with resistance and explanation breakdown. Are there things that could have been done better? Sure, based on our personal preferences, but at least we get to see in this video the actions being performed in real time without having to imagine it. Nitpick away, lol.



So I guess we know what to do if anyone in the street ever throws a lazy slow motion jab at us and leaves it hanging out there extended for a few seconds.

The more you know I guess..


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## Martial D (Jun 5, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> and sadly I think in doing so he is doing the "WC" guy a disservice.



WC guy? Not sure what that is, but not WC.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 5, 2017)

Martial D said:


> So I guess we know what to do if anyone in the street ever throws a lazy slow motion jab at us and leaves it hanging out there extended for a few seconds.
> 
> The more you know I guess..


What!? That's exactly how the kids at the group home do it, they even wear the same type of helmet. The only difference is that those kids drool more and occasionally soil themselves, takes grappling right out of the equation.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 5, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Just for clairification this isn't a video of me, my branch or anyone I know


not you in the video? well there's no need to nitpick then. lol


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## Nobody Important (Jun 5, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> not you in the video? well there's no need to nitpick then. lol


That's  exactly why I won't get offended, lol.


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## wckf92 (Jun 5, 2017)




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## wckf92 (Jun 5, 2017)




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## wckf92 (Jun 5, 2017)




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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2017)

If you are trying to flank and counter a taller guy. Don't stand right at their punching range.

People try to do what was done in that video in real time and it ends badly.

I think people believe that if you cut the distance short before you flank. You have more time to enter.

What happens is the other guy has no reason to go forwards. And just sits at that range punching your head off.


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## KPM (Jun 5, 2017)

We need to dub wckf92  the "meme meister"!


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## Nobody Important (Jun 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you are trying to flank and counter a taller guy. Don't stand right at their punching range.
> 
> People try to do what was done in that video in real time and it ends badly.
> 
> ...


Perhaps, but if you cut the flank short it makes for a better fajita. Smaller pieces are easier to chew.


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## LFJ (Jun 6, 2017)

I agree with drop bear on range.

The video title says this is for fighting taller attackers.

Bad idea to stand immobile at the end of their punching range (right where they want you), where they can hit you, but you can't hit them.

In the first exchange, the defender plants his feet in a super wide stance and does the matrix to avoid and swivel around those punches.

Vulnerable to all sorts of things doing that, not the least of which is that left punch that looks like it could well have landed if the attacker intended it to (might even have landed), and knew how to punch...

At the same time, the defender is also reaching out and chasing the hands which leaves him with arms away from his head while doing the matrix which doesn't move his head far enough to avoid the punches.

I think if any of those punches had had intent, they likely all would have landed. At least the jab-cross combo would have knocked him out before he got outside of the third punch.

Tactics in the second exchange were much better, but I don't know why the attacker bent over to hide for no reason before even being hit. Defender also goes up on his toes to overreach, which means not as much power, and again vulnerable if he's not fighting a coward.

Better footwork and management of range needed so that when you enter it can be in a mobile, but solid stance and at the right range for you to counter.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 6, 2017)

LFJ said:


> I agree with drop bear on range.
> 
> The video title says this is for fighting taller attackers.
> 
> ...


My guess is that he bent over prematurely so as to not take one in the jewels for the sake of a demo. I've been on the recieving end of over eager performers looking to "make it real" for the crowd on their complacent dummies. Not saying definatively that this is the case, but would be my first guess.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> My guess is that he bent over prematurely so as to not take one in the jewels for the sake of a demo. I've been on the recieving end of over eager performers looking to "make it real" for the crowd on their complacent dummies. Not saying definatively that this is the case, but would be my first guess.



That partner was Mr flinchy. I mean he had a helmet on and was running away from punches.


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## LFJ (Jun 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> My guess is that he bent over prematurely so as to not take one in the jewels for the sake of a demo. I've been on the recieving end of over eager performers looking to "make it real" for the crowd on their complacent dummies. Not saying definatively that this is the case, but would be my first guess.



Yes. That's a problem with doing free-flow performances. They might not be choreographed, so better than technique demos, but that doesn't make them realistic.

Because if you say, alright, you do whatever you want and I'm going to try to flank and counter, again the moves may not be preset, but it is still contrived, and the attacker knows you are supposed to be showing something, so they may unconsciously give you your opportunity to do it, as the guy did here.

If it's supposed to be free-flow, followed by a breakdown, they should actually do some free sparring, then review the video for times they effectively flanked the opponent, and break that down.

Something like the Gracie Breakdown videos where they review actual fights.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> That partner was Mr flinchy. I mean he had a helmet on and was running away from punches.


Could be that he is the appointed class whipping boy and now suffers from a complex. Or, he developed that flinch from one too many games of Punch Bug that resulted in PTSD.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Could be that he is the appointed class whipping boy and now suffers from a complex. Or, he developed that flinch from one too many games of Punch Bug that resulted in PTSD.



I actually think too much of that sort of demo work. And especially the sort of spazzy demo stuff you see from time to time makes people flinchy.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I actually think too much of that sort of demo work. And especially the sort of spazzy demo stuff you see from time to time makes people flinchy.


Probably right, LFJ laid it out pretty well in his above comment. It's hard to make a demo look realistic while at the same time trying to be complicit.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Probably right, LFJ laid it out pretty well in his above comment. It's hard to make a demo look realistic while at the same time trying to be complicit.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


>


Lol, I get your point but not quite the same IMO.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Lol, I get your point but not quite the same IMO.



Well scarily similar sometimes.


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## Nobody Important (Jun 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Well scarily similar sometimes.


True. Funny that pro wrestling actually started off like MMA and evolved from real fighting to entertainment, because real grappling was drawn out and boring to watch. TCMA went the same route but decided to focus on solo routine expression devolving even further from reality than pro wrestling, yet believe the opposite. This really has nothing to do with your comment, just a controversial side quip to stir the pot, lol.


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## Juany118 (Jun 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you are trying to flank and counter a taller guy. Don't stand right at their punching range.
> 
> People try to do what was done in that video in real time and it ends badly.
> 
> ...


Which oddly enough is exactly what Sifu Keith explains in the other video


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Which oddly enough is exactly what Sifu Keith explains in the other video



Correct.


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## Juany118 (Jun 6, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Correct.


That first bit and the jamming is what I have always really liked about that video.  I've actually always wondered why people think it is a good idea to get in close ASAP and then start moving tactically.  Sometimes you MAY be forced to do that, as an example the person has a weapon and you want to get control before they can properly ready/deploy it, however that is a rarity.

Working angles properly you can flank and step in at the same time vs stepping in then flanking.  This is one of the reasons why, when I train at home, I always make sure I do footwork drills.  Even made this.  It's patterned off of how we use the rattan baston in Kali at my school.  I don't have a stack of "beater" baston lying around so I used PVC.￼


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> That first bit and the jamming is what I have always really liked about that video.  I've actually always wondered why people think it is a good idea to get in close ASAP and then start moving tactically.  Sometimes you MAY be forced to do that, as an example the person has a weapon and you want to get control before they can properly ready/deploy it, however that is a rarity.
> 
> Working angles properly you can flank and step in at the same time vs stepping in then flanking.  This is one of the reasons why, when I train at home, I always make sure I do footwork drills.  Even made this.  It's patterned off of how we use the rattan baston in Kali at my school.  I don't have a stack of "beater" baston lying around so I used PVC.￼



There is more to it. If you don't make the guy work to hit you. Then he won't. He will hang back at his range. Take little movements forwards. Then just pop back out of range.

This extends the time it takes for you to close. Meaning you spend more time getting hit. And he has more time time to counter your rush in.

You really need to bait the taller guy to come forwards aggressively. Then you go forwards and close the distance.


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## Juany118 (Jun 7, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There is more to it. If you don't make the guy work to hit you. Then he won't. He will hang back at his range. Take little movements forwards. Then just pop back out of range.
> 
> This extends the time it takes for you to close. Meaning you spend more time getting hit. And he has more time time to counter your rush in.
> 
> You really need to bait the taller guy to come forwards aggressively. Then you go forwards and close the distance.




I agree entirely BUT regardless of the specific tactics employed footwork is incredibly important.  I know more than a few people who study martial arts and when I have asked many of them "what footwork drills do you use for practice" all to often they rely on the drills they do with a compliant partner or the footwork that is already in a form/kata.  What I like about the Kali footwork drills is that they are A. just foot work and B. can be done in an improvisational manner outside a traditional drill or rigid form/kata.  There is also a similar dynamic in European fencing (Spanish sword in particular).

I have been wondering a couple things on this point. 

1. is my experience simply limited so I have not experience directly (or through friends) an unarmed art that has such a focus on foot work? or
2. is this focus on footwork a product of a weapon focus?  Because the weapon(s) is there you now have many more range options.  Because of that your footwork has to be much more dynamic, contracting and expanding as the threat dictates.


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## drop bear (Jun 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I agree entirely BUT regardless of the specific tactics employed footwork is incredibly important.  I know more than a few people who study martial arts and when I have asked many of them "what footwork drills do you use for practice" all to often they rely on the drills they do with a compliant partner or the footwork that is already in a form/kata.  What I like about the Kali footwork drills is that they are A. just foot work and B. can be done in an improvisational manner outside a traditional drill or rigid form/kata.  There is also a similar dynamic in European fencing (Spanish sword in particular).
> 
> I have been wondering a couple things on this point.
> 
> ...



We do heaps of it. I imagine it is important to people who dont want to bet smacked in training. So with a weapon you really dont want to get smacked. MMA gloves you really don't want to get smacked. Boxing kick boxing, so on.

Kuyokashin is a bit different as footwork works against you and they don't care if they get smacked. And other styles where they don't get smacked hard enough for it to matter.


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## Vajramusti (Jun 7, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I agree entirely BUT regardless of the specific tactics employed footwork is incredibly important.  I know more than a few people who study martial arts and when I have asked many of them "what footwork drills do you use for practice" all to often they rely on the drills they do with a compliant partner or the footwork that is already in a form/kata.  What I like about the Kali footwork drills is that they are A. just foot work and B. can be done in an improvisational manner outside a traditional drill or rigid form/kata.  There is also a similar dynamic in European fencing (Spanish sword in particular).
> 
> I have been wondering a couple things on this point.
> 
> ...


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The Augustine Fong and Ho Kam Ming tradition closely based on Ip Man himself has lots of foot work all conceptually interlinked.
I have not seen such footwork elsewhere.


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## Juany118 (Jun 7, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So with a weapon you really dont want to get smacked.



Good point.


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## Juany118 (Jun 7, 2017)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------
> The Augustine Fong and Ho Kam Ming tradition closely based on Ip Man himself has lots of foot work all conceptually interlinked.
> I have not seen such footwork elsewhere.



I don't know those traditions but my current TWC and Kali Sifu/Guro first studied under a student of Augustine Fong.  I think, as we have become friends, this might be an interesting conversation over cigars one evening.  Thank you for the information.


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