# Opinion on Teaching certain students



## tempus (Jan 25, 2008)

Here is an odd question.  I am currently testing for my black belt and it is a very lengthy test.  I am in no hurry, but one of the requirements is teaching.  I have been asssiting the Sensei's for some time now.  There are now letting me run the classes on my own.  Now the NGA art does conecnetrate on strikes to loosen up an opponent that is bigger, strike if you make a mistake in a technique and you need to get uke moving again or if you are gripped very tightly.  There is one student who refuses to strike and will stand there gripped struggling like mad or will get frustrated when his technique fails and struggles.  

Once confronted on it he left class mubbling that O'sensei never striked and Steven Sagal in the movies never had to strike.  If I was to reply to him on this it would O'sensie did it for his entire life and could feel the attack just as it was happening and movies are movies.  Plust Segal is like 6 ft something 250 lbs.  I watch the sensei's not harp on the striking with him, but really trying to get him to perfect his technique.  My opinion is they should be conecnetrating on that and getting him to strike.  The guy is about 6ft and maybe 150lbs, very skinny and I feel by not pushing him a little he may be in for a rude awakening out in the street should something occur.  I have been doing the art longer for him and I can tell you I am far from perfection, so far I need a GPS, a map and a star chart to get me there.

Is it a confidence issue?  What does one do with this type of student?

Thanks,

Gary


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## Kumbajah (Jan 25, 2008)

This may be of help found it here http://www.tsuki-kage.com/ueshiba.html

From the biographical book "The Founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba", written by Ueshiba Kisshomaru (translated and reprinted in Aiki News #62). Excerpt originally written by Okamoto Ippei and published in the November 1933 issue of Budo magazine.

"[Ueshiba] started with easy techniques using two of his students. Even for an untrained eye, it was clear that he moved very softly... However, in the meantime his students attack him with all their might and still tumble down in a shower of attacks (atemi) to their vital points.
In short his art reaches a conclusion before ordinary judo even starts its work. [The Founder] said, 'My technique is 70 percent atemi (striking) and 30 percent nage (throwing).' "

Also I may be mistaken - I thought NGA didn't trace it lineage back to O Sensei. Might be helpful to point that out as well


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## shesulsa (Jan 25, 2008)

This guy is likely either afraid to hit/hurt someone or is completely deluded.

See if you can get him to hit a soft bag target or focus pad first - something no one needs to hold for him. Work up to larger targets someone has to hold for him - or have someone just put their hand on the bag to help hold it still, then focus pads, then up from there if that's what you do.

If he flat out refuses to strike anything, then ask him privately if he has any medical condition that would preclude him from impact sports.  If he offers no better explanation than what he's already offered, ask your teacher to advise you further.


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## morph4me (Jan 25, 2008)

What rank is the student? I assume you're talkng about applications and not classical techniques. If he doesn't want to strike in applications he's going to have to relax and move sooner to avoid letting Nage get a good grip ( it only took me about 15 years to learn that ).  

Let him do gripping lines, furstration is a great motivator if he won't listen any other way.


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## tempus (Jan 25, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.  He is three belts into the art, so almost half way.  Thanks for the link I will look at it this evening.  Yes, this is during applications that we run into the issues.  We have done some classes striking a bag or makiwara (excuse spelling) board, but the effort is half hearted.  I think I may ask him off the mat as to why he has issues with striking.


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## jks9199 (Jan 25, 2008)

tempus said:


> Thanks for the replies.  He is three belts into the art, so almost half way.  Thanks for the link I will look at it this evening.  Yes, this is during applications that we run into the issues.  We have done some classes striking a bag or makiwara (excuse spelling) board, but the effort is half hearted.  I think I may ask him off the mat as to why he has issues with striking.


That's what I'd suggest...

Maybe he's just locked into an ideal of aikido that says there's no striking, and that it's pure defense.  There are plenty of ideas like that out there...

Or maybe he's afraid to hit someone because he's hurt someone in the past.  Or because he figures if he tries to hit someone, they just may hit him back -- and he's afraid to get hit.

Or -- maybe it's just time for an instructor to bluntly point out who the teacher is versus who the student is...  I know that I'm finding that many younger folks today are less willing to simply DO what they are told, unless they really are given thorough explanations.  Getting them to understand that sometimes, you do it the way the teacher says because they're the teacher and you're not is an uphill battle.


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## howard (Jan 25, 2008)

tempus said:


> ...Once confronted on it he left class mubbling that O'sensei never striked and Steven Sagal in the movies never had to strike.


Whoa... this guy needs a history lesson.

Ueshiba was originally a licensed Daito-ryu instructor. Daito-ryu is full of strikes. So was Aikido at one time, and some styles still are.

And this guy must not watch Seagal's movies very closely... because he strikes regularly.


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## amir (Jan 27, 2008)

I do not know if this is the case, but some people are reluctant to hurt another person. One faces such things more often with regard to women, but some men have the same sentiment.

Those people normally have more problems with overt volence - atemi, then they do with locks and joint manipulaiton (which can be even more dangerous).


Convincing such a person and changing his beliefs is a gradual process, which *can only take place if he agrees*.


Amir

P.S.
I also do not understand the mentining of Ueshiba and Segal, neither is from your system (NGA) and I do believe both used Atemi.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 27, 2008)

striking is not just about making contact or not making contact.  a strike is a strike.  there is no way to simulate it perfectly. striking is also about getting hit. most people fear getting physically hit. that fear won't help in learning in my opinion, but truth is truth and i learnt the hard way that one should never try to cover up someone elses weakness.  because even if you have the brains and the respect to do that, most likely, when it comes their turn, they will not.  
so i think, the stronger should not be brutal but also should not fool the others into thinking their ineffective attitude or techniques are the way.


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## Yari (Jan 31, 2008)

tempus said:


> Here is an odd question. ...... There is one student who refuses to strike and will stand there gripped struggling like mad or will get frustrated when his technique fails and struggles.
> 
> Once confronted on it he left class mubbling that O'sensei never striked and Steven Sagal in the movies never had to strike. .......
> 
> ...


 
The question isn't odd. Nor is the student.

I don't know how you pratice Aikido, and what your reference are(looks like NGA). But I would state that neither Ueshiba or Segal is teaching. You are teaching this style, were you do things the way you do. And then (not in front of class), you can ask way he dosen't strike. And when he answers "ask him again" - keep asking until you get to the bottom of it. Then ask him if he wants to do Aikido like you guys do it in your dojo. If he deos, se if you can make a plan togheter with him. If not, well, then he should be in another place. 

And on another note. talk to your sensei about it. He may have some cerstain ways he wants things handled.

/Yari


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## shesulsa (Jan 31, 2008)

Any news on this?


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## ejaazi (Feb 14, 2008)

Keep on trying and do the best that you can do. He has to want it. If he is not going to try, just remember that you can't make him do. Not everybody is serious about Aikido. Not everyone is going to try as hard as they can.


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## Yari (Feb 14, 2008)

ejaazi said:


> Keep on trying and do the best that you can do. He has to want it. If he is not going to try, just remember that you can't make him do. Not everybody is serious about Aikido. Not everyone is going to try as hard as they can.


 
I think this is true, but also that a person can find a motivation depending on how you present something.

/Yari


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## Kumbajah (Feb 14, 2008)

Yari said:


> The question isn't odd. Nor is the student.
> 
> I don't know how you pratice Aikido, and what your reference are(looks like NGA). But I would state that neither Ueshiba or Segal is teaching. You are teaching this style, were you do things the way you do. And then (not in front of class), you can ask way he dosen't strike. And when he answers "ask him again" - keep asking until you get to the bottom of it. Then ask him if he wants to do Aikido like you guys do it in your dojo. If he deos, se if you can make a plan togheter with him. If not, well, then he should be in another place.
> 
> ...




I agree with you.

One downside to this approach ( saying "perhaps you'd be better off somewhere else") is in todays consumer culture people may take it as an affront. i.e. "I paid my money I have just as right to be here as anyone else" 

not realizing that you are not trying to be confrontational, rather showing them that they may be happier somewhere else. 

Also another downside to commercial culture is that because people are paying, they expect to be taught how and what they want rather then what is actually offered. When false expectations and reality meet - it ain't pretty.


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## Yari (Feb 15, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> One downside to this approach ( saying "perhaps you'd be better off somewhere else") is in todays consumer culture people may take it as an affront. i.e. "I paid my money I have just as right to be here as anyone else"
> 
> ...


 
This is true. So what can one say to avoid this and still get your message through? 

/Yari


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## Kumbajah (Feb 15, 2008)

Good question-  Dunno - Blending and leading? 

I guess I put it this way. 

"You're right they didn't hit. Although there was the threat of a hit. You know other people interpret this art differently then we do. I know X dojo down the street does things differently then we do. Did you go there before coming here? "

"No - they might be worth checking out - that way you could compare and contrast different interpretations" 

or 

"Yes - why did you choose to study here rather then there?"


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## theletch1 (Feb 16, 2008)

At the blue belt level this student should already have observed tons of application of technique.  If he's ever seen sensei MacEwen perform NGA he may have missed some of the atemi as Sensei Mac adds his atemi in so smoothly that it's often times hard to see.  You can try to explain that using atemi to direct uke's energy in a particular way is just as much aikido as leading energy that's already there.  His statement that Ueshiba and Seagal don't use atemi is not only way wrong it shows a fundemental misunderstanding of the art.  The suggestion to use grip lines to counter this is a good one.  I'd also suggest pairing this student with a higher ranking student in the class and running a drill where-in the higher ranking student proffers much resistance in a grip.  When your yon-kyu student can't make any technique happen have your higher ranking student suggest a specific strike target to get him (higher rank) to start moving in such a way as to affect a technique.  Perhaps, once your yon-kyu understands that atemi is actually useful for this he'll start doing it.  It's important to remember, all of us, that aikido takes a long, long time to get anywhere near perfect with.  Until then atemi will help smooth out some of the rough edges to assist our technique.  It may also help if your lead instructor does a class for everyone which discusses the use of atemi.  That way your student can see the benefit of atemi when explained by the chief instructor with out feeling singled out.  Keep us posted on this.  I'm an NGAer as well and have been teaching my own class for about 1 1/2 years.  I still, like you, have a lot to learn about aikido in general and teaching specifically.

As for the student refernceing O'sensei and Seagal, well, there are tons of folks that just haven't delved deeply enough into the subtle differences between hombu and NGA styles to truly appreciate what a rich style we have had handed down from Morita Sensei.


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## tempus (Feb 17, 2008)

I have been on vacation for the last two and half weeks in sunny Orlando Florida visiting the giant mouse.  I will be getting back to the dojo this week and will hopefully be able to ask the guy after the class.  However, he does have a habit of running for the door after class and arriving just on time.  Plus he will wait to see who is in class before entering the dojo.  If I am the only one attending class that night he usually goes home.  We tried the tight grip thing about year ago that lead to this discover and I was the Uke at the time.  That was the night he ranted and left class.  I will let everyone know how it goes.


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## theletch1 (Feb 18, 2008)

We'll keep checking this thread.  Sounds like the guy may just need to move on.  The dedication required to learn any martial art is such that swallowing your pride and taking direction (even if it pisses you off) is severe.  Sounds like the guy may just be trying to live a fantasy from a few books without having to walk the path.


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## Yari (Feb 19, 2008)

tempus said:


> ........ I will let everyone know how it goes.


 
Let's here how it goes....

/yari


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## tempus (Mar 12, 2008)

I finally have an update.  I taught class last Wednesday, but he escaped before I could ask him.

This evening was a small class of just me and two sensei's, one of which is the one that has trained me from day one.  I asked him if he has ever asked the guy why he does not strike.  The sensei stated yes.  The answer from the guy was *"Because I do not feel the need to stike, nor do I feel the need to learn.  I feel that I should focus on the technique and the energy and that is all that I need."*

The guy is an adult and can train how he sees fit.  However, the sensei stated that we he gets into trouble he still points out the strikes and presses that if that was the real world you could be dead.

During the class I had taught last week a big guy grabbed him from behind and the guy did not react fast enough and was struggling to get out.  I stopped the attack pointed out a back heel kick up to the groin, instep on the shin (if you had shoes on), stomp on the foot would loosen the guy up for you to go into a technique, he starred at me and went back in line.

I guess all you can do is try and let everyone make their art theirs and hope it works out well for them in the end.

-Gary


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## ArmorOfGod (Mar 13, 2008)

tempus said:


> I finally have an update. I taught class last Wednesday, but he escaped before I could ask him.
> 
> This evening was a small class of just me and two sensei's, one of which is the one that has trained me from day one. I asked him if he has ever asked the guy why he does not strike. The sensei stated yes. The answer from the guy was *"Because I do not feel the need to stike, nor do I feel the need to learn. I feel that I should focus on the technique and the energy and that is all that I need."*


 
After reading this and the other postings about your student, I think I would be to the point of telling him to leave and go find a school that would make him happier.

AoG


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## theletch1 (Mar 13, 2008)

Maybe it's just the mood that I'm in today after a grueling day at work, but... invite a boxer over to the dojo and have him beat this guy to a whimpering pile then ask him if he still feels that atemi is useless.  GRRRRR!!! It burns me up that someone who is evidently very enamored with the art of aikido is pissing away a huge portion of the art simply because of a MYTH about Ueshiba.  :cuss:


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## shesulsa (Mar 13, 2008)

It's pretty simple, really.  If there are any strikes ... at all ... in the entire system, he would likely fail his next rank test, no? And continue to do so if he did not demonstrate his ability and understanding of the required curriculum?

Personally I think you have either a pacifist or a mental patient on your hands.


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## tempus (Mar 13, 2008)

I can only give my input on the matter.  I am not the owner and I just started the test for my black belt (just finished the 50 techniques classically and now on to applications of them).  This could be the reason he has had the same belt for the last three years.  I have thrown a lot at him and he has struggled.  I now give little or no resistance because it is not worth the effort nor injury.  The next belt level he will need to do a defense line for his green belt.  It is going to be a rough one for him if he gets to that point.  

-Gary


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## theletch1 (Mar 13, 2008)

Gary, not to hi-jack the thread or anything but....
Congratulations!!  Keep us posted on how the testing process is going for you.  Having finished up the 50 classics successfully you shouldn't have any problems at all with the apps.  That attack line is gonna be a bear.

//now back to your regularly scheduled thread//

It sounds as if your instructor has already caught on to the inability of this student to fully accept all that NGA, or any form of aikido, has to offer and is withholding testing in an effort to get him to leave.  If he's been at the blue belt level for 3 years and continues to come back it seems that coming to the dojo is more of a part of his routine than a real effort to learn the art.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 13, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> It's pretty simple, really. If there are any strikes ... at all ... in the entire system, he would likely fail his next rank test, no? And continue to do so if he did not demonstrate his ability and understanding of the required curriculum?
> 
> Personally I think you have either a pacifist or a mental patient on your hands.


 

I was leading towards mental.

He has this mystical opinion that he will be able to Aikido and never have to touch anyone with pain. That their own energy will do all the work. He could have a misplaced conception of the art in question.


for example I had a woman ask me to teach her a self defense class. I told her I coudl set something up for her and a friend or her husband. What she really wanted was not to work out, but to get a certificate that said she had passed some self defense class so now she could defend herself and nothave to put any work into it at all.


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