# How to understand a kata



## Curlykarateka (Mar 6, 2013)

Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 6, 2013)

how long have you been training?


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## K-man (Mar 6, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?


There are some simple explanations for the moves you see in kata, but in reality it is highly unlikely that the moves you see are the intended applications which are concealed within the kata.

There are many books that you can read to further your understanding. Some I have which I have found excellent are; 'Okinawan Karate' by Mark Bishop, 'The Way of Kata' by Lawrence Kane and Kris Wilder and 'Bunkai Jutsu' by Iain Abernethy.

The is a top Goju man in the US called David Oddy who proposed a very good analogy. You take a kata and learn the moves. It's like moving in a circle. After you learn the moves you have come full circle. Now you start to perform the kata with intent, good strong moves. Soon you are back to the beginning. Now we can look at the moves and try to interpret what the moves could mean. Each time we look at the kata, it takes us back to the beginning. Now we can look at a deeper meaning to the kata and again after a period of time we have a much better knowledge. Another circle. Perhaps we could now look at how Kyoshu is within the kata, another circle. How does kata work on the ground? Another circle. Locks and holds, throws and takedowns etc. If a observer was looking down from above he would see a little karate figure going round and round in circles, getting nowhere. That is how many people view kata, from above.  Now, if our observer was on the ground he would see that each time our little karate figure has completed a circle, he is on a higher level. Each circle takes him higher and higher as his knowledge and understanding increase.  That is how I view a serious practitioner of kata.

Many people complete the first few circles and get bored.  I could spend the rest of my life going round in circles with kata.

Check out Iain Abernethy on the Internet. He has enough free information to keep you going for years. When you are ready for your next level, purchase some of his DVDs.
:asian:


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## seasoned (Mar 6, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> how long have you been training?


Your answer lies here.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 7, 2013)

Honestly, I applaud CK's thirst for knowledge, considering he is only 14, with only 6 years experience.  My advice is to keep an open mind and an empty cup, and you can learn a lot from the people here on MT.  I have been practicing for 28 years, and I have learned a great deal from the many people here!  I think K-man gave some great advice on where to start looking.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 7, 2013)

What K-Man said. Id suggest starting with Iain Abernathys stuff on Shuto Uke, which you can pop by youtube and find. Its very easy to understand whats happening, and the mentality that goes into interpreting it the ways he does can (for me at least) make it easier to get off on the right foot with other things.
Of course, what helps for me may not be universal, but its worth a shot


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## Curlykarateka (Mar 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> how long have you been training?


 six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 7, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?



it only matters in the sense of your experience level will affect how you view kata and what you may or may not understand about it.  Someone with a lot of experience is likely to recongize issues around kata that someone with little experience would simply not grasp or be able to understand.  I just wanted to get a sense of where you may be in your progression and experience.


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## K-man (Mar 7, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?


My son started training with me when he was eight. That was over 30 years ago. (I look at that age for my youngest grandson to start although at age 4 we are already 'playing' karate.)
So you are about the age he was when he stopped training first time round. At that stage your have a fair grasp of the basics.  I only have one junior (14 or 15 yo) in my class. He was only there because his father also trains. He has been with me for about a year and his knowledge and ability is growing by the day. I just hope he stays with me when the hormones kick in because he will be unbelievable. So 14 to 15 is a great age to start consolidating your knowledge.

From my point of view the biggest problem you will face will be with the instructors you will come across. What we are talking about here (on MT) are concepts that aren't always present in your average school. That's where you'll see the term McDojo coming up from time to time.  But that doesn't stop you learning by yourself. (I don't mean that as training by yourself.) Look at what's on the Internet, start trying to see the difference between the good stuff and the crap. Get as many good books as you can that are produced by top people (not always easy to tell which ones are good when you are starting out) and study the techniques. And try to attend seminars with different people. 

You are studying Goju, if I recall an earlier post. Remember its roots were in Kung Fu. I have understood so much more about karate by looking at Kung Fu guys training. (There are lots of WC guys on this forum who post some great material.)
Look on the Internet for a guy called Masaji Taira. He is a top Okinawan Goju man who has some fascinating concepts.

And the best advice I could give is, enjoy your training. Make sure it is good fun. Never let it get boring.     :asian:


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## punisher73 (Mar 7, 2013)

Katas are interesting in the traditional arts.  If you take a look at an art like "American Kenpo", many of the forms are based on their self-defense techniques so you know exactly what the move is supposed to do.  On the other hand, traditional karate kata are what is called a "Mnuemonic Device".  Which is something that helps remind us of deeper information or something that helps us to recall information.  For example, "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" that is taught to school children to help them remember the order of operations in basic math (parentheses, exponents, multiply/divide, add/subtract).  If you were JUST taught that phrase and not taught the other stuff, it wouldn't mean a whole lot.  Then future generations from now, you might have theories on how that phrase is used to teach basic manners!

Before the advent of putting pictures/drawings into books, the motions of kata didn't have names (or they were given poetic names like in the chinese arts--White Ape Steals the Peach).  Once you put a name on the motion, it becomes that motion.  So if I call it an "inward block", I now look at it through the lense of an inward block, when the intent could also be a hammerfist to the jaw, or used in conjunction of the chambering hand as an arm break.  Those are just a couple of examples, but the idea was the motion was the same for all those applications so you had a way to manage the information you knew.

This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a _specific application_.  The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it for that application, you are losing the other information.

Lastly, I will add that katas teach concepts of body motion and aren't ALWAYS a direct application or it will teach you the hardest way to do it so the other ways are easier.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 7, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a _specific application_.   The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it  for that application, you are losing the other information.



While I don't disagree with the above statement, how do  you wise MTer's feel this applies to the lineage of a particular form  that is taught across many styles?  Do the subtle changes (which down  the line become not subtle at all) from one style to the next restrict  or just change the possibilities of the applications.  I would like to  exclude changes that were solely for athletic or aesthetic changes (i.e.  changing kicks to the knee/groin/waist to kicks to the head).  

Let's use Seisan as an example, since it is one of the oldest forms practiced across many Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles.

Goju Ryu Seisan:






Shito Ryu Seisan:







Shorin Ryu Seisan:






Shotokan Hangetsu:






Wado Ryu Seisan:






Isshinryu Seisan:






Uechi Ryu Seisan:






Ryukyu Kenpo Seisan:






Tang Soo Do Seisan:


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## K-man (Mar 7, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> While I don't disagree with the above statement, how do  you wise MTer's feel this applies to the lineage of a particular form  that is taught across many styles?  Do the subtle changes (which down  the line become not subtle at all) from one style to the next restrict  or just change the possibilities of the applications.  I would like to  exclude changes that were solely for athletic or aesthetic changes (i.e.  changing kicks to the knee/groin/waist to kicks to the head).
> 
> Let's use Seisan as an example, since it is one of the oldest forms practiced across many Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles.


First I think you have to look to the source which is thought to have been White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province in Southern China where a number of Okinawan masters spent years learning the local fighting systems. Bushi Matsumura was one of the first to visit China and bring back knowledge that would be the basis for his system. Among his students,  Anko Asato, Anko Itosu, Motobu Choki, Nabe Matsumura and Chotoku Kyan.   

Aragaki was another and when you look at his most famous students it reads like 'Who's Who'. Among them men famous for developing the major Okinawan styles, Funakoshi Gichin, Higaonna Kanryo, Uechi Kanbun, and Mabuni Kenwa. So it is easy to understand how it is common across the karate spectrum. 

Some of these guys, like Higaonna Kanryo and Uechi Kanbun, also went to China to further their study, so they would also have seen the form at its source.

In those days it seems the master would teach the kata in slightly different ways depending on the physical attributes of the student.  Whether that came with different applications we will never know.  But, if all these guys went away with a slightly different variation it is easy to see how the variation has occurred. But the most likely driver of change is when they stopped teaching the applications.  Now anyone could vary the kata to suit themselves and no one is the wiser. Schoolboy karate as it was introduced into schools and universities and hence into the community could be anything.

In some ways it doesn't matter if it has changed and in others I would really like to know the original form. If your idea of kata is how you perform it in competition it doesn't matter at all.  If you are trying to use it as a fighting system then it is more difficult, a bit like a back office Baffin sending out the wrong calibre ammunition to the battlefield. You waste time trying to work out why the gun doesn't work.

So, we have to work with what we have and try to use our knowledge of techniques to unravel the secrets of the kata we are studying, regardless of the variations. I haven't tried it, but, it might be possible to look across the spectrum at the differences to help with our understanding.    :asian:


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## sopraisso (Mar 7, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> six years, but I started at age eight, so I've only been intellectually mature for 2/3 of those. Does it matter?



There is much more inside karate than most schools usually show. I've seen guys who trained for a decade and didn't have a clue about how karate should work.
Your current attitude -- looking for knowledge and keeping yourself humble at the same time -- can take you beyond you can imagine. Just keep your interest and an open mind. When you get close to your twenties you'll probably be greatly ahead of many older guys around -- just never let it go to your head, though. :asian:


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## punisher73 (Mar 8, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> While I don't disagree with the above statement, how do  you wise MTer's feel this applies to the lineage of a particular form  that is taught across many styles?  Do the subtle changes (which down  the line become not subtle at all) from one style to the next restrict  or just change the possibilities of the applications.  I would like to  exclude changes that were solely for athletic or aesthetic changes (i.e.  changing kicks to the knee/groin/waist to kicks to the head).
> 
> Let's use Seisan as an example, since it is one of the oldest forms practiced across many Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean styles.



First I will reiterate a key statement that I said in relation to changing the kata.


> This is also why it is a VERY bad idea to change the moves of a kata to fit a *specific application*.  The moves aren't intended for just one purpose and when you change it for that application, you are losing the other information.



It is felt that "Seisan" is the oldest okinawan kata that we still have.  Now, let's look at the "changes" to the kata.  If we look at those examples, we see not just changes to the kata but to they "style" itself.  The changes reflecting the style's strategy and focus for how it viewed unarmed combat.  The changes weren't just technique focused application wise, but changed the techniques to fit into this combat model.

A more specific example.  If you look at Isshin-Ryu's Seisan kata, the pattern and flow is from Shorin-Ryu's Seisan kata, but the stances are from Goju-Ryu's Seisan kata.  The individual techniques used are then replaced with Tatsuo Shimabuku's personal approach to combat (the double bone block, the vertical punch etc).  It is probably the same with the others, the founder of the style made changes to reflect their personal approach.

Now, the question is.  Was some information lost with the changes?  We will probably never know that.  Karate used to not be taught as a business, but was a personal relationship with the teacher/student.  When the teacher "altered" the kata, it was specific for what that individual needed (remember most classes were very small and individual attention was high) and wasn't meant to be taught to others.  That was why, it used to be a teacher taught ONE PERSON to pass on the system to others and would keep it intact. 

We KNOW that information was changed when karate went public.  We have Itosu saying that he changed the katas to be taught to the public in the school systems.  Then we have Funakoshi saying that he also changed the kata to be taught to school children and the Japanese.  We also know that karate was changed to teach American GI's when they started getting military contracts.  

By looking at the other styles of karate, especially those that have tried to stay as close to the source as possible we can start to understand some of the movements and their possibilities of applications.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 8, 2013)

K-man said:


> So, we have to work with what we have and try to use our knowledge of techniques to unravel the secrets of the kata we are studying, regardless of the variations. I haven't tried it, but, it might be possible to look across the spectrum at the differences to help with our understanding.    :asian:



This is a subject/concept that very much interests me.  I will admit I know very little of Seisan, I only chose it because it is a very old form that is practiced across many styles.  I think I might have to start a new thread!


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## TimoS (Mar 8, 2013)

K-man said:


> In those days it seems the master would teach the kata in slightly different ways depending on the physical attributes of the student.



A bit off topic, but I have my doubts about how true this really is. I think it's more to do with when a particular student came to a teacher. The kata had simply evolved a bit and that is why different students have different looking versions. I am by no means an expert on physical education but I think it requires a lot of theoretical and practical knowledge about human physiology to be able to "tailor" your teachings to fit an individual without compromising the underlying principles and I don't think the old masters were that organized in their teachings.


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## OldKarateGuy (Mar 8, 2013)

I have posted this anecdote before, but I think it instructive here. In one of his books - forget which - Kanazawa says that when he was a young man, he trained with Funakoshi himself, who was very elderly. He learned a form from Funakoshi, again forget which (if it was even mentioned). He finally worked up his nerve and said to Funakoshi "I learned this form originally from X, who learned it from you in the 1930's. but the way you do the form now (1950's) is not the same way your student taught it to me. Why has the form changed?" Funakoshi told him "The kata has not changed. When I taught it to X I was a young man, full of strength. Now I am an old man, and I do the kata the way an old man can." So, the students were slavishly following every detail of the elderly sensei, and in effect, making changes from the original way of doing the kata. Every change to a form may not be intentional, but may be something unintended, like in this case. 
This story may be apocryphal, but Kanazawa did put it in a book.


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## K-man (Mar 8, 2013)

OldKarateGuy said:


> IWhy has the form changed?" Funakoshi told him "The kata has not changed. When I taught it to X I was a young man, full of strength. Now I am an old man, and I do the kata the way an old man can."


Mmmm! Sounds like me and jump kicks.


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## chinto (Mar 8, 2013)

Kata and what it is teaching you will change over time as your understanding changes.  a student who is doing say saisan for 2 years will see a different thing in it then that same student will see after doing the kata for say 10 years.  there is Doctrine and Tactical thinking as well as techniques and then implied techniques you will find as you go back time and time again and look anew at what it is trying to teach you.


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## enthusiast (Apr 19, 2013)

Here is what my instructor said about kata.

He told us that they are not applicable in real life fighting, but they are the best preparation for it. We do not fight by using the kata that we learned, instead, we perfect our fighting form and motion through our kata. 

Or sth like that, I can't explain it well, I hope you get his point. I'm a karate newbie btw


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## K-man (Apr 19, 2013)

enthusiast said:


> Here is what my instructor said about kata.
> 
> He told us that they are not applicable in real life fighting, but they are the best preparation for it. We do not fight by using the kata that we learned, instead, we perfect our fighting form and motion through our kata.
> 
> Or sth like that, I can't explain it well, I hope you get his point. I'm a karate newbie btw


It depends how kata is taught. Keep an open mind regarding the practical uses of kata. Why would you think the early Okinawan karateka spent years learning just one kata if it had no practical use in real life fighting?   :asian:


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## TimoS (Apr 19, 2013)

K-man said:


> It depends how kata is taught. Keep an open mind regarding the practical uses of kata. Why would you think the early Okinawan karateka spent years learning just one kata if it had no practical use in real life fighting?   :asian:



Exactly. OTOH, if the instructor meant that we don't in a situation use the kata _exactly_ as in the form (stances etc.) but use the principles in kata and modify what we do slightly to adapt to the situation, then I agree with him


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## enthusiast (Apr 19, 2013)

TimoS said:


> Exactly. OTOH, if the instructor meant that we don't in a situation use the kata _exactly_ as in the form (stances etc.) but use the principles in kata and modify what we do slightly to adapt to the situation, then I agree with him




This is what I meant. He told us that the kata is our FOUNDATION for kumite. He explained kata to us because most of his students are absent in karate sessions(I train shidokan).

Btw, I am new in karate and as a kid, I hated karate because of kata but I am now seeing it differently


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## chinto (Apr 20, 2013)

K-man said:


> It depends how kata is taught. Keep an open mind regarding the practical uses of kata. Why would you think the early Okinawan karateka spent years learning just one kata if it had no practical use in real life fighting?   :asian:



Exactly!!!


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## sopraisso (Apr 29, 2013)

I believe the adoption of kata practice as a kind of performance art/sport (like, for example, artistic gymnastics) may have contributed greatly to a major misunderstanding of the function of kata. Beauty and millimiter precision of form has become an end in itself -- while in the truth kata would only be a mean to record, transmit and train a plethora of fighting principles and techniques -- not something meant to be "beautiful" or visually artistic. I see instructors talking about beauty of kata performance like aesthetics was the most important aspect of the practice. That, added to the fact that the majority of western instructors nowadays don't have a clue about kata meanings, principles and bunkai, has lead to the current situation. The well-informed answers I see people provide in this thread sadly don't reflect the overall situation of most dojo I've seen.


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## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> I believe the adoption of kata practice as a kind of performance art/sport (like, for example, artistic gymnastics) may have contributed greatly to a major misunderstanding of the function of kata.



Probably that played a role also, but I think that the biggest reason was the focus on competitive kumite. People started to train only with the competitions in mind and kata became a burden.


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## dancingalone (Apr 29, 2013)

TimoS said:


> Probably that played a role also, but I think that the biggest reason was the focus on competitive kumite. People started to train only with the competitions in mind and kata became a burden.



I think it happened as a natural consequence when karate began to be taught in mass classes rather than in small groups of 1-4.  Then graduates of that method in turn started teaching themselves.

In the USA, a lot of military servicemen who brought back MA when their tours ended really only has meager amounts of study themselves and due to the language barrier, there's a good possibility that their instruction consisted primarily of monkey see, monkey do.


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## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> In the USA, a lot of military servicemen who brought back MA when their tours ended really only has meager amounts of study themselves and due to the language barrier, there's a good possibility that their instruction consisted primarily of monkey see, monkey do.



Yes, that is most likely another major factor.


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 29, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> In the USA, a lot of military servicemen who brought back MA when their tours ended really only has meager amounts of study themselves and due to the language barrier, there's a good possibility that their instruction consisted primarily of monkey see, monkey do.



As I have been told, much of the early TKD instruction, even from Korean instructor to Korean student, was still a lot of "monkey see, monkey do."  By that I mean very little talking/explaining, and more a teacher demonstrating a technique, and then the students working diligently to replicate it. 

I have no idea how this relates to JMA or OMA.  

But I agree, commercialization in every sense of the word has changed martial arts and kata.  That said, if it weren't for the commercialization of martial arts, I would've never had an opportunity to train!


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## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> As I have been told, much of the early TKD instruction, even from Korean instructor to Korean student, was still a lot of "monkey see, monkey do."



Don't know about Korea, but as I've understood it, this is still the case in many Japanese dojo, probably even on many Okinawan dojo as well. On the other hand, from what I've heard, at least in Okinawa when western students ask questions, the sensei will probably explain. I don't know if the local students ask questions.


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## dancingalone (Apr 29, 2013)

TimoS said:


> Don't know about Korea, but as I've understood it, this is still the case in many Japanese dojo, probably even on many Okinawan dojo as well. On the other hand, from what I've heard, at least in Okinawa when western students ask questions, the sensei will probably explain. I don't know if the local students ask questions.



I have made arrangements to train at the Jundokan in a few months.  I have been assured that the teachers holding class would welcome my questions during class if they are brief, and it will be open season during my solo sessions.  

On the flip side, I know I have read interviews with students of (say) Miyagi Chojun Sensei, and they state that he was very strict and did not allow discussion during training.


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## TimoS (Apr 29, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> On the flip side, I know I have read interviews with students of (say) Miyagi Chojun Sensei, and they state that he was very strict and did not allow discussion during training.



Maybe the sensei understand that westerners are different. I don't know, I've been to Seibukan dojo twice, but since both times were during big events, we didn't get much chance of asking questions. Mind you, I didn't really have any, I was just happy to be there


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## sopraisso (Apr 30, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> On the flip side, I know I have read interviews with students of (say) Miyagi Chojun Sensei, and they state that he was very strict and did not allow discussion during training.



I've read quite a few quotes supporting this, including by major Miyagi Sensei's student Toguchi Seikichi, who also stated that Miyagi Sensei advised him not to make public the teachings he received about kata analysis/interpretation.

It always amazes me that whole karate styles/systems may have possibly been founded without proper or sufficient understanding of the meaning of karate kata by the founders of those styles. I do believe to see a handful of hints suggesting that this did happen, leading to changes in techniques or in forms, in those styles, mainly due to a possible misunderstanding of how those techniques should really work.


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## dancingalone (Apr 30, 2013)

sopraisso said:


> It always amazes me that whole karate styles/systems may have possibly been founded without proper or sufficient understanding of the meaning of karate kata by the founders of those styles. I do believe to see a handful of hints suggesting that this did happen, leading to changes in techniques or in forms, in those styles, mainly due to a possible misunderstanding of how those techniques should really work.



Indeed.  We're also missing context to an extent, many of us anyway, due to a difference of language and cultural norms.  I try not to be a martial arts snob but in many styles I think there is value gained in studying the parent culture of the art and correspondingly from a skilled and studied teacher that came from that culture.


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## TimoS (Apr 30, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> rom a skilled and studied teacher that came from that culture.


Or, at the very least, you should have access to such a teacher


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## teekin (Nov 4, 2013)

I was doing Karate, Gojyu Ryu, and like it a fair bit. What drove me Crazy was the lack of information I could pull out of the teachers. I Must Must understand the concepts behind what I am doing or I can not learn Anything, anything! I finally learned how to do an armbar and the offangle armbar where the shoulder is hyperflexed so the arm breaks ( ala Rhonda Rousey) because I had the* concept* explained to me by Loyyd Irvine. ( didn't I like try to show that to someone like 3 years ago? Nahhhh.)  Now I can see an armbar coming and can defeat it 99% of the time and God Help you if I can get your shoulder off the ground because I will find a way to have you tap. Once I have the concept it's just looking for holes in YOUR game I can jump on.

 So Kata. I hear what you are saying about sanchin but to me it is just a jumble of meaningless unconnected motions. I have no idea off what the "ideal" is, what the concepts Behind kata are, why the motions are made the way they are, what is suppose to be achieved, what is suppose to be concentrated on, what is the "right" way, what is a fault, where this leads, in short What the Hell I am doing. I loved the repetition and speed drills in bunki, in fact it very quickly was an innate response. I have trouble boxing sparring because I can't not block, I just do. There is NO thought, it just happens faster than I can think "don't block". Remember I am a Dressage psycho, a realy picky French Classical dressage psycho and it doesn't get much more anal than that. If I understood the concepts behind Kata I bet I would excell at it but as of now it is un excercise in screaming frustration. Can anyone just Explain WHY am I doing Kata!


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## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> This is a subject/concept that very much interests me.  I will admit I know very little of Seisan, I only chose it because it is a very old form that is practiced across many styles.  I think I might have to start a new thread!



Post the link here so we can find it.  I have some thoughts on Seisan that might be of interest.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2013)

Curlykarateka said:


> Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?



This is a problem of teaching, IMO.

I've found that learning the kata and looking into it on your own is an inefficient way of understanding the nature of the applications for the kata.  You can do that, but you'll end up wasting a lot of time chasing dead ends.  That said, here is how I've come to understand how the kata used to be taught in order to pass on the applications and understanding of it's nature.

Students would begin practice with conditioning so that they would be physically fit enough to defend themselves.  Some styles of karate specifically trained in weight training and you can find the old photos of the old masters in their students lifting clay jars with their finger tips, using barbells with concrete weights, and doing regular calisthenics.  Some kata are actually designed to be performed with weight training implements!  All of this physical training depended on the teacher.  Some teachers valued it more than others.  Then, they would move to learning basics and conditioning the body to perform the basics.  Makiwara training was part of this, but also so was learning how to fall, and stay balanced.  Then, students would start learning simple attack and defense routines in the form of drills.  They would practice these drills while the teacher watched and the teacher would help each student perform them in such a way so that each student could use his own physical attributes.  After a while, the teacher would start to introduce some new concepts and new responses that could be added onto the simple drills they learned so that they could start to see options and follow up techniques.  Then, the teacher would provide the students with opportunities to improvise on these concepts against partners who would resist to varying degrees, letting the students see what worked and what didn't, allowing them to go back to training in techniques/concepts that needed improvement.  Finally, the student would be taught the kata.  When the teacher felt that the student had a good understanding of all the movements and techniques, they were given a single person exercise that helped them remember everything they were told.

Think about this method as you train.  I think it's important to understand how your training diverges from this order, especially as you become older and more experienced.  As you start to become more independent with your training, you can start to form your own training regime that will start to fit this.  Or, perhaps you can go out and find a teacher who teaches like this.  It's up to you.


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## K-man (Nov 4, 2013)

teekin said:


> So Kata. I hear what you are saying about sanchin but to me it is just a jumble of meaningless unconnected motions. I have no idea off what the "ideal" is, what the concepts Behind kata are, why the motions are made the way they are, what is suppose to be achieved, what is suppose to be concentrated on, what is the "right" way, what is a fault, where this leads, in short What the Hell I am doing. I loved the repetition and speed drills in bunki, in fact it very quickly was an innate response. I have trouble boxing sparring because I can't not block, I just do. There is NO thought, it just happens faster than I can think "don't block". Remember I am a Dressage psycho, a realy picky French Classical dressage psycho and it doesn't get much more anal than that. If I understood the concepts behind Kata I bet I would excell at it but as of now it is un excercise in screaming frustration. Can anyone just Explain WHY am I doing Kata!


If you had read the thread and followed any of the links you would not be asking the question this way. Perhaps, for a start, chase up Iain Abernethy's website then we could have further discussion. There is a lot already written and we have just completed another thread involving the reasons for kata that started under similar circumstances then went for 60+ pages, that I would really not like to do again.


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## K-man (Nov 4, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> This is a problem of teaching, IMO.
> 
> I've found that learning the kata and looking into it on your own is an inefficient way of understanding the nature of the applications for the kata.  You can do that, but you'll end up wasting a lot of time chasing dead ends.  That said, here is how I've come to understand how the kata used to be taught in order to pass on the applications and understanding of it's nature.
> 
> ...


*Maka*, I agree that in the beginning learning the kata and looking into it on your own is inefficient and you will not get any understanding of kata application. However, at the other end, with training and experience it is the _only_ way you will advance unless you rely completely on the incomplete knowledge of others, because I don't believe anyone has complete knowledge.

I have never seen kata designed for use as in; "some kata are actually designed to be performed with weight training implements!" Where did you find those?

I have spent the past ten years pretty much studying kata full time and my understanding is about as far away from your explanation as it could go. What you have described is exactly the training the early guys did but that training is nothing to do with kata IMHO. Maybe that's a little harsh because you do say that it leads up to being taught the kata but I have seen nothing to suggest "they were given a single person exercise that helped them remember everything they were told." No kata contains everything and these guys generally only learned one or two kata. They spent many years on each one, maybe a lifetime of training. 
:asian:


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## Makalakumu (Nov 4, 2013)

K-man said:


> I have never seen kata designed for use as in; "some kata are actually designed to be performed with weight training implements!" Where did you find those?










K-man said:


> I have spent the past ten years pretty much studying kata full time and my understanding is about as far away from your explanation as it could go. What you have described is exactly the training the early guys did but that training is nothing to do with kata IMHO. Maybe that's a little harsh because you do say that it leads up to being taught the kata but I have seen nothing to suggest "they were given a single person exercise that helped them remember everything they were told." No kata contains everything and these guys generally only learned one or two kata. They spent many years on each one, maybe a lifetime of training.
> :asian:



I'm not sure I understand your point here.  For myself, the teaching method I have described was very different from the way I initially trained when I started karate.  We were given moves from the kata and these were called basics.  They had the names low block, high block, front punch, etc.  Then, we were given the kata and we practiced it without training any of the applications.  After this, we worked on one steps that took some of the basic moves they called basics and strung them together in very zen like responses to lunging front punches.  Then, we learned the tournament sparring that we were going to utilize at the next competition.  Kata were trained for the competition as well.  Anyway, this method was utilized in both the Japanese and Korean karate dojos I trained with.

After subsequent research and training with various Okinawan practitioners on the island, I've come to recognize that what I described above was the actual way karate used to be passed on before it became a modern art.  If you read Shoshin Nagamine's book, Tales of the Okinawan Masters, he explicitly relays the training methodology utilized by the masters or founded many of the modern ryu.  A number of other masters in their writings corroborate this.  

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/tales-of-okinawas-great-masters-shoshin-nagamine/1002850947

Perhaps you could describe how you were trained and compare it directly to what I described.


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## K-man (Nov 5, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> That is not evidence that Sanchin was designed to be performed with weight training implements. The fact that that student is performing the steps of Sanchin while carrying the jars is just their method of training. Even the intensive testing that is demonstrated in this clip is not in most Okinawan Sanchin testing.
> 
> I'm not sure I understand your point here.  For myself, the teaching method I have described was very different from the way I initially trained when I started karate.  We were given moves from the kata and these were called basics.  They had the names low block, high block, front punch, etc.
> 
> ...


If I could start out specifically with Sanchin. Sanchin teaches a lot of things and incorporates all the principles of Goju. Despite that it actually contains very few techniques. Probably only six or seven, yet this was a kata that was trained for years.  If you read what you wrote and apply that to Sanchin it just doesn't make sense. Perhaps we could look at the origin of Sanchin ...

http://www.traditionalfightingarts.com/karate_sanchin.htm

As it is performed in Okinawa it came from China and was just part of another kata. Whether it was White Crane or another is open for discussion, but suffice to say it must have been reasonably widely practised for both Higaonna and Uechi to bring it back from Fuzhou, and it must have contained incredible teaching value for it to have the elevated respect among the other kata that it has been afforded and the position maintained in our training.

But let us leave Sanchin and Tensho out of the discussion for the moment as they are _heishugata_.

As you specifically quoted Nagamine I will move to the Gekisai kata that where developed by Miyagi from the Fukyugata that he developed with Nagamine. These were developed to teach beginners but I think they are brilliantly crafted, illustrating that Miyagi and Nagamine had profound knowledge of kata. Taught to beginners at that level they seem like just simple moves to help the beginners get a feel for kata. Underneath, I think these kata are every bit as good as the other kata brought across from China. The applications are just brilliant. 

So let's look at your hypothesis. The students have been learning basics, they've paired up and trained drills, they might have seen what worked and what didn't, although I would query whether anything they were taught didn't work, then eventually they were given the kata to remind them of what they had learned.

So Gekisai Ich, if we just count one side, contains about 10 or 12 techniques. Hardly a lexicon! Yet those techniques, as performed in the kata, contain some amazing fighting sequences, if someone knows them to teach or can decipher them. Because the kata were designed to teach kids I doubt very many people have ever taken the time to look at the kata that way. But in the traditional dojo, not the schools and universities, the guys there would have recognised the masterpiece that Miyagi and Nagamine had crafted. Could your hypothesis apply? Certainly ... in theory. But in practice, if people had been taught that way the knowledge would have been passed down because those kata were taught to hundreds of thousands of people. It would have been impossible to keep the content of the kata secret ... unless the content was never taught.

We can then look at the other Goju kata ... Saifa, Seiunchin, Shisoshin etc up to Suparenpei. These are incredibly complex fighting systems with applications on several levels from the seemingly obvious to the lethal combinations. They were never taught in the way you described. Sure, some teachers may have taken one or two combinations from kata to act as drills but that is the exception. Now there are a handful of people teaching kata at a higher level and those guys are rarer and more valuable than diamonds.
:asian:


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## seasoned (Nov 5, 2013)

punisher73 said:


> Katas are interesting in the traditional arts. If you take a look at an art like "American Kenpo", many of the forms are based on their self-defense techniques so you know exactly what the move is supposed to do. On the other hand, traditional karate kata are what is called a "Mnuemonic Device". Which is something that helps remind us of deeper information or something that helps us to recall information. For example, "Please Excuse My Dear Aunt Sally" that is taught to school children to help them remember the order of operations in basic math (parentheses, exponents, multiply/divide, add/subtract). If you were JUST taught that phrase and not taught the other stuff, it wouldn't mean a whole lot. Then future generations from now, you might have theories on how that phrase is used to teach basic manners!
> 
> Before the advent of putting pictures/drawings into books, the motions of kata didn't have names (or they were given poetic names like in the chinese arts--White Ape Steals the Peach). Once you put a name on the motion, it becomes that motion. So if I call it an "inward block", I now look at it through the lense of an inward block, when the intent could also be a hammerfist to the jaw, or used in conjunction of the chambering hand as an arm break. Those are just a couple of examples, but the idea was the motion was the same for all those applications so you had a way to manage the information you knew.
> 
> ...





K-man said:


> *First I think you have to look to the source which is thought to have been White Crane Boxing from Fujian Province in Southern China where a number of Okinawan masters spent years learning the local fighting systems. Bushi Matsumura was one of the first to visit China and bring back knowledge that would be the basis for his system. Among his students, Anko Asato, Anko Itosu, Motobu Choki, Nabe Matsumura and Chotoku Kyan.
> *
> Aragaki was another and when you look at his most famous students it reads like 'Who's Who'. Among them men famous for developing the major Okinawan styles, Funakoshi Gichin, Higaonna Kanryo, Uechi Kanbun, and Mabuni Kenwa. So it is easy to understand how it is common across the karate spectrum.
> 
> ...


Instead of being a product of the way we were taught, we all should evolve from the way we were taught to a position of understanding. Masters of old all cross trained, but the newer dojo that I was involved with, in the beginning, frowned on it. 
Looking over the thread above I highlighted (2) statements that jumped out for me. This is where my training years have taken me. We could say full circle, but the saying always was, "go back to the basics". 
As was stated, "go back to the origin, and don't change the moves, and absorb the principles of sanchin, "breath, movement and structure" and the kata WILL talk to you...........


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## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2013)

K-man said:


> _That is not evidence that Sanchin was designed to be performed with weight training implements. The fact that that student is performing the steps of Sanchin while carrying the jars is just their method of training. Even the intensive testing that is demonstrated in this clip is not in most Okinawan Sanchin testing._
> :asian:



Here is an interesting article on the subject.  I love the way Miyagi Sensei organized the Goju curriculum with weight training in mind.  I think this practice has probably fallen out of practice in most goju dojos.  It certainly has in Hawaii.  I would be training at a Goju dojo that had all of these implements displayed and were regularly put into use.  I find this type of training interesting.  

Anyway, I have to say how impressed I am by the elegance of this system.  I wish more karate systems would have preserved this aspect of their training.

http://www.portaskarate.org/weights.html



> Training with traditional Okinawan resistance devices is not like body building or weight lifting in the purest sense, as the working muscles are not "pumped up" to a degree where they become instantly larger; nor is the concentration on lifting the maximum amount of weight for a single repetition. Instead, Master Miyagi's methodology takes advantage of working at a slow, deliberate pace for each repetition; and the weight being used is kept under control at all times without any sudden movements, "jerking," or extra, forced contractions designed to increase muscle size. Stated simply, "strength" refers to the amount of tension a muscle can apply when contracting; and keeping movements at a slow, controlled, even rate optimizes the potential for a muscle group to exert the strongest contraction when called upon to do so. In Master Miyagi's style of exercise, the use of progressively heavier weights will increase the size and number of muscle fibers that can be recruited when per forming a certain movement, which is similar to other methods of resistance training; however, the main emphasis for the Okinawan method is to supplement the techniques within the martial arts system by making them more powerful and explosive.
> 
> 
> Traditional Okinawan Goju-Ryu karate students must learn to balance their training sessions to include stretching, supplementary resistance work, and the performance of kata in a manner where the body remains strong, flexible, and in a position of readiness to react quickly and explosively when necessary. Reaction time concerns the interval between the recognition of a stimulus and the consequent start of the movement that takes place with regard to the stimulus. The dedicated practicing of kata and bunkai (practical applications of kata) teaches the student to react in a corresponding manner to a threat or lack thereof, and supplementary resistance training enhances the techniques by making the movements faster and more powerful.



Further down in the article, they describe the actual techniques used to train.  As you can see, these training techniques directly correspond to the techniques in the kata and their related bunkai.  That is awesome!

There is no doubt that other karate systems trained in similar ways.  Check out this photo.


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## teekin (Nov 5, 2013)

Thank you all who gave me a place to at least start. I did read the whole thread but did not run down all the references and did not look for previous threads. I am trying to avoid going down blind alleys. There is SO much information presented in just this thread that I don't know what to concentrate on, where the beginning is. 
 I will try Ian Abernathy. See how hard it is to get a solid concrete answer? I just don't get it. I know why I do speed drills, I know why I do turn in drills, I know why I do flow drills, I know why I do the sparring kata, even katana kata I get ( adore, adore, adore). What is the big secret of basic sanchin kata that it can't be explained in two sentances? 

As I learned dressage and taught it I found it did not become more complex to explain. It  distills down to a few very simple principals that are Brutally hard to execute but can be explained in a few sentances. The more intimately I Know my subject the simpler it is to explain. Be it dressage or the Reformation.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 5, 2013)

K-man said:


> It would have been impossible to keep the content of the kata secret ... unless the content was never taught.:asian:



Charles Goodin is a high ranking Okinawan Karate practitioner here in Hawaii and he is responsible for assembling perhaps the largest library of karate rare books and publications in the world.  Here is an article that he wrote about how the old style art of karate, complete with knowledge of the bunkai, was transformed in the modern art we see today.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html

I think the important part to understand is that almost everyone living today learned the modern way of practicing karate.  The old masters talked about how they were trained, but early on they formed a gentlemen's agreement to not teach the applications or to adopt the "modern" way of teaching the art.

Here is an entire thread dedicated to this subject where we discussed this a while back.  Why does the "modern" style look so different from the "old" style.

[URL]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/70368-On-the-removal-of-grappling-from-Shotokan/page2



exile said:


> Well, in Gennosuke Higaki's _Hidden Karate: the True Bunkai for the Heian Katas and Naihanchi_, he indicates that the Okinawan expats had a gentleman's agreement not to teach the serious, combat-ready applications to the Japanese, though GF slipped up a bit and taught some forbidden stuff to Shozan Kubota and maybe a couple of his other very high ranking students.



http://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Karate-Bunkai-Heian-Naihanchi/dp/4902481960[/URL]


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## K-man (Nov 5, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Here is an interesting article on the subject.  I love the way Miyagi Sensei organized the Goju curriculum with weight training in mind.  I think this practice has probably fallen out of practice in most goju dojos.  It certainly has in Hawaii.  I would be training at a Goju dojo that had all of these implements displayed and were regularly put into use.  I find this type of training interesting.
> 
> Anyway, I have to say how impressed I am by the elegance of this system.  I wish more karate systems would have preserved this aspect of their training.
> 
> ...





Makalakumu said:


> Charles Goodin is a high ranking Okinawan Karate practitioner here in Hawaii and he is responsible for assembling perhaps the largest library of karate rare books and publications in the world.  Here is an article that he wrote about how the old style art of karate, complete with knowledge of the bunkai, was transformed in the modern art we see today.
> 
> http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html
> 
> ...


Great articles and they describe pretty much how we train. 



> > It should not be surprising that private students (those who trained at the teacher's house or even at the family tomb) and public students (those who generally trained at schools) would be taught differently. Now take this forward a few generations. *Soon, whole generations of students would learn Karate without studying applications -- and then they would become the teachers!*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The sentiments expressed in Charles Goodin's article above are exactly what I have been saying all along the way and exactly the way we train.
:asian:


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## K-man (Nov 5, 2013)

teekin said:


> Thank you all who gave me a place to at least start. I did read the whole thread but did not run down all the references and did not look for previous threads. I am trying to avoid going down blind alleys. There is SO much information presented in just this thread that I don't know what to concentrate on, where the beginning is.
> I will try Ian Abernathy. See how hard it is to get a solid concrete answer? I just don't get it. I know why I do speed drills, I know why I do turn in drills, I know why I do flow drills, I know why I do the sparring kata, even katana kata I get ( adore, adore, adore). What is the big secret of basic sanchin kata that it can't be explained in two sentances?
> 
> As I learned dressage and taught it I found it did not become more complex to explain. It  distills down to a few very simple principals that are Brutally hard to execute but can be explained in a few sentances. The more intimately I Know my subject the simpler it is to explain. Be it dressage or the Reformation.


I must apologise. I was so involved with my discussion with *Maka* that I failed to reply to your post. Elsewhere there is a thread about McDojos. If you would like a simple, two line explanation of kata, perhaps chase up one of them. The explanation will be something like; "we do kata because it is traditional". There you are, one line! 

For me, kata is 99% of my karate. It cannot be explained in less than a library because everyone who is in to kata will have their own take on what they get out of it. *Maka* posted links to some great articles on kata and kata bunkai. The views expressed in those articles will be totally at odds with what most people experience in their normal training. The way most karate is taught kata has no real reason for being there. In fact I know of 'freestyle' karate schools who tossed out kata about 30 years ago because it was 'useless' only to bring it back when their understanding changed.

Sanchin kata is one of the heishugata. These kata are performed with a continued state of tension maintained throughout the kata. These kata help reinforce the basic principles of karate, the same principles that are found in most other martial arts. Off the top of my head, stability, balance, core strength, Ki extension and zanshin and mushin spring to mind. These are all practised while performing Sanchin. Sanchin does contain a lot of information that can be incorporated in bunkai but in the Goju system there are probably better kata to work with for that. 

So let's go back to your original post:



teekin said:


> I was doing Karate, Gojyu Ryu, and like it a fair bit. What drove me Crazy was the lack of information I could pull out of the teachers. I Must Must understand the concepts behind what I am doing or I can not learn Anything, anything!
> 
> Unfortunately that would be typical of many schools, especially those more involved in competition.
> 
> ...


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## TimoS (Nov 6, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> The old masters talked about how they were trained, but early on they formed a gentlemen's agreement to not teach the applications or to adopt the "modern" way of teaching the art.


And yet, despite this "gentlemen's agreement", the applications continued being taught to students of Okinawan karate. So what does that tell you? To me, it tells that your claim of "gentlemen's agreement doesn't hold water. As for teaching in modern way, sure, karate teachers adapted. Back when e.g. Zenryo Shimabukuro trained with Kyan, there were only a handful of students. Nowadays masters can have tens of students training at the same time or at a seminar, even hundreds. Do you think that they can devote the same kind of attention to each student as when there were only two or three students? Of course not! Of course, when there aren't that many students present and you ask for corrections/advice, you will get them.


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## teekin (Nov 6, 2013)

K-man said:


> I must apologise. I was so involved with my discussion with *Maka* that I failed to reply to your post. Elsewhere there is a thread about McDojos. If you would like a simple, two line explanation of kata, perhaps chase up one of them. The explanation will be something like; "we do kata because it is traditional". There you are, one line!
> 
> Ohhhhhhhhh, that just hurt. :cofeespit:
> 
> ...



Addendum to armbar----I was Shown via demonstation, every kind of visual demontration you can possibly think of, how to do an arm bar. Repeatedly, as I calculate approx 1000X over 3 years. I had it done to me as well so I could feel my limbs move in the sequence I needed to repeat and that helped a great deal. I wish I had had more time to explore and play around with that particular submission, it is a great gateway to so so many cool things to do with upper body joints. What was missing was the WHY, the explanation behind why each angle and position was "just so" in order for that submission to work. I had to understand the principals Behind each part of every position, the physics ( physiology) behind why an armbar will destroy a joint in order to see How to do the technique. I am NOT a visual learner, showing me doesn't help me understand.


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## K-man (Nov 6, 2013)

teekin said:


> Three, three sentances. I had no idea it was to be performed in a continuous state of tension. How much tension, does it vary? When and why? how can you tell? What is the purpose of maintaining tension? You have taught me more about the principals behind sanchin in these three sentances than I had learned the entire time that I performed it. Thank you for answering it in a very basic straight forward way. Now I have something to work with, a place to start.


The tension starts from the initial breakout into Sanchin dachi, double Chudan Uke and remains throughout the kata. Why is an interesting question. Breathing is also a big part of this kata as the lungs are totally emptied with each technique. Tensioning the body with dynamic tension is allowing both isotonic and isometric exercise of the body. This combined with correct posture produces a rock hard structure. Some people see the breathing as developing Ki but that really depends on your understanding of Ki. Certainly during testing you extend your mind as you extend your arm in the 'punch' and again as the arm returns to the Chudan Uke position. The tension in the body also transmits through to the floor where you are literally gripping with your toes. Also by focusing on tensioning the body, the testing where it is sometimes quite physical, doesn't affect you as your mind and body are one. This type of situation I would describe as 'hard' Ki.
:asian:


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## teekin (Nov 7, 2013)

K-man said:


> The tension starts from the initial breakout into Sanchin dachi, double Chudan Uke and remains throughout the kata. Why is an interesting question. Breathing is also a big part of this kata as the lungs are totally emptied with each technique. Tensioning the body with dynamic tension is allowing both isotonic and isometric exercise of the body. This combined with correct posture produces a rock hard structure. Some people see the breathing as developing Ki but that really depends on your understanding of Ki. Certainly during testing you extend your mind as you extend your arm in the 'punch' and again as the arm returns to the Chudan Uke position. The tension in the body also transmits through to the floor where you are literally gripping with your toes. Also by focusing on tensioning the body, the testing where it is sometimes quite physical, doesn't affect you as your mind and body are one. This type of situation I would describe as 'hard' Ki.
> :asian:



 tension starts from the initial breakout into Sanchin dachi.
  Ok, how much tension are we talking about here? Relaxed and toned like when dropping into a "ready" stance or like muscles shaking, sweat dripping hold a 1/2 crunch for 20 minutes type tension? Please to remember I didn't get very much info about any of the kata's except the "tradition", and " patience grasshopper" speaches. What may seem to be stupid beyond belief questions to you is really just outright ignorance ( and angry frustration)on my part

Why is an interesting question. But not answered yet huh? 

Breathing is also a big part of this kata as the lungs are totally emptied with each technique. 
They are?  Nope , no breathing or any part there of was discussed with me for this or any other kata. I can see that this would change the focus of sanchin though, interesting. 

 allowing both isotonic and isometric exercise of the body. combined with correct posture produces a rock hard structure. 
 More interesting, I know that mindfull breathing and moving tension from muscles to muscle can produce very restful sleep and a very focused clear mind. Mother*******, I Knew there was a LOT more to this than what I was being told. There Had to be a reason kata had survived this many centuries. Now why in the sam hell wasn't any of this taught to me when I was ASKING about it? So beyond frusterating. 
 So are answers like " you are to dumb to talk to, go and read Ian Abernathy then Maybe we can have a discussion". Sir, way to be an ambassador for your sport. With people like you as a mentor I'm sure all the bright inquisitive minds will just flock to and embrace Karate as a means to enlightenment. 

 Gracious K man now that you have explained some of the surface or superficial concepts behind sanchin to me are the Karate Gestapo going to come and kill you in your sleep. After all I didn't have to read 10 or 12 books on history, lineage, the philosophy behind or the ancient manual of kata.  I do hope you survive the night.

 developing Ki but that really depends on your understanding of Ki.
I don't really get the Ki thing so I can't comment on it.

The tension in the body also transmits through to the floor where you are literally gripping with your toes. Also by focusing on tensioning the body, the testing where it is sometimes quite physical, doesn't affect you as your mind and body are one. 
 I get this, I have done an excercise like this I just don't remember why or where but yes I understand what you are saying here and how it applies to sanchin as you have described it to me. 

When you explain the specifics of the technics and reasons Behind those techniques, sanchin starts to take on a 3rd dimension. Thank you very much. Sometimes I just need a small push to start to grasp things. I still don't know if I can work with That teacher who didn't give me any answers but perhaps I can work around him. Again, thank you for your time and for being straight forward with me. 

Teek


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## Marnetmar (Jan 6, 2014)

Katas and forms are about _principles_ of movement, not movements in and of themselves.


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## K-man (Jan 6, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Katas and forms are about _principles_ of movement, not movements in and of themselves.


Mmm! And that means ... ? What movement are you meaning? The movement in stance or the movement of the technique and what 'principles' are you referring to?
:asian:


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## TigerCraneGuy (Apr 12, 2014)

As a EPAK practitioner who has recently become very interested in classical Karate bunkai oyo, I have found the various sources useful:

Shuri / Shorin forms

1) Iain Abernethy, as others have mentioned. I have all his Bunkai Jutsu DVD downloads and I must say they are exceptional, the best of the lot imo.

2) John Titchen's Pinan Flow System (from Amazon)

3) John Burke's various bunkai books (from Amazon) and DVD downloads (from his site, Bunkai Strategies)

Naha forms (primarily Goju)

1) Giles Hopkins blog and articles (as downloaded from the Journal of Asian Martial Arts) present excellent applications for Goju forms. E.g. this blog post has a link to his youtube video on Saifa: http://goju-ryu.blogspot.com.au/2013/08/saifa-kata-and-bunkai.html 

2) While I don't agree with all of his ideas, Tom Hill's videos on Youtube are also quite good.

3) Gavin Mulholland's book 'Four Shades of Black' is a solidly written treatise on the mindset and training philosophies behind each kata.

Interestingly, I see a great deal of overlap between the SD techniques in Kenpo and postures found in the Goju forms, especially Seipai and Kururunfa. Does anyone else see this too? Just curious...


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## D.Cobb (May 28, 2014)

TigerCraneGuy said:


> Interestingly, I see a great deal of overlap between the SD techniques in Kenpo and postures found in the Goju forms, especially Seipai and Kururunfa. Does anyone else see this too? Just curious...


I studied American Kenpo for about 7 years, and when I left, I was looking for something more "old school". I tried a few different systems until I found Goju Ryu. I initially trained in Meibukan Goju under Cristofoli Senseii, but I am now a member of the Kenkyu Kai headed by Taira Sensei. The reason I chose Goju Ryu and stayed was because of the similarities I found in the 2 systems and also in the training philosophies of the 2 systems.


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 18, 2014)

Curlykarateka said:


> Sure, after performing a kata a few times I can see one or two meanings for every move, different ways of breathing and different rhythms. but there has to be more to it than that, help from any other martial artists on how they think about and practice Kata/forms. Apparently each kata is a complete system of fighting, how does one achieve that level of mastery and understanding?



Learning all the steps, moves, and applications of a kata is just the first step. Much of a kata is supposed to be mental. When you're going through all the steps and moves you're supposed to imagine that you're actually fighting opponents. When you throw a punch or kick in the kata you're supposed to imagine you're really hitting an adversary. That's why kata is often referred to as meditation in motion. To really get the most out of katas, to get the most from that type of exercise, you have to apply the mental aspect. You have to make like you're really fighting attackers. Otherwise the kata is dead.


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## donald1 (Oct 18, 2014)

I practice lots of kata lots.  Understanding kata to me is taking techniques from the form and being able to apply them or what it could be. Perhaps practice one form,  while going through one spot in the form see how it could be used in a real life self defense then see how I can change that one part in the form; by that I mean see what other moves i could use or switch moves around or change stances to get different angles

Personally its one thing I really like about kata,  learning different combinations. Whether i am practicing a goju ryu kata like tondo ku kata dai itchi and seisan; a kobudo kata like tokumine dai and hamahiga sho.  There's many more kata too and so many possibilities to do things differently in them


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## K-man (Oct 19, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Personally its one thing I really like about kata,  learning different combinations. Whether i am practicing a *goju ryu kata like tondo ku kata dai itchi *and seisan; a kobudo kata like tokumine dai and hamahiga sho.  There's many more kata too and so many possibilities to do things differently in them


Goju Ryu kata?


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## dancingalone (Oct 20, 2014)

K-man said:


> Goju Ryu kata?



That's one of the beginner forms created by Toguchi Sensei from the Shoreikan lineage.  Not in Jundokan.  Kinda repetitive...Not sure why Toguchi felt it were necessary considering its similarity to Gekisai Dai Ichi.


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## K-man (Oct 20, 2014)

dancingalone said:


> That's one of the beginner forms created by Toguchi Sensei from the Shoreikan lineage.  Not in Jundokan.  Kinda repetitive...Not sure why Toguchi felt it were necessary considering its similarity to Gekisai Dai Ichi.


OK. Same as Goju Kai's basic Taikyoku kata.
:asian:


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2014)

No matter how good that you can perform your form/Kata, you are just a good copy machine, no more and no less. If you don't add something new into your system, the day when you die, you have no contribution to your system. 

Why don't you start to "create" your own form/Kata? Instead of trying to understand the ancient form/Kata, why don't you let people to study your form/Kata instead? 

If you create a 

- good form/Kata, people will still practice it 1000 years from today. 
- bad form/Kata, nobody will even notice your creation through the MA history.

Instead of reading Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, start to write your own books before you die.


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## K-man (Oct 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> No matter how good that you can perform your form/Kata, you are just a good copy machine, no more and no less. If you don't add something new into your system, the day when you die, you have no contribution to your system.
> 
> Why don't you start to "create" your own form/Kata? Instead of trying to understand the ancient form/Kata, why don't you let people to study your form/Kata instead?
> 
> ...


I used to think I could and in fact a lot of friends have to do just that for their gradings. Do you know how demoralising it is to see someone going for 5th dan performing a kata that is just a sequence of moves?

If I was starting over again I could be 5th dan TKD by age 10, 1st dan BJJ by 20, 5th dan Goju by 40, 2nd dan Aikido by 60 and with that amount of understanding I might just be able to cobble together a reasonable kata. Unfortunately starting at 66, even with a bit of experience I am about 60 years too late.


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## donald1 (Oct 20, 2014)

Gekisai Dai Ichi and ni 





dancingalone said:


> That's one of the beginner forms created by Toguchi Sensei from the Shoreikan lineage.  Not in Jundokan.  Kinda repetitive...Not sure why Toguchi felt it were necessary considering its similarity to Gekisai Dai Ichi.



And gekisai Dai ni,  if I have my history correct miyagi made both gekisai Dai Ichi and ni,  and Toguchi made gekisai Dai San,  all similar to tondo tu kata dai itchi and ni 
(IMO, with slight differences as gets more advanced but more or less similar pattern atleast)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2014)

K-man said:


> I used to think I could and in fact a lot of friends have to do just that for their gradings. Do you know how demoralising it is to see someone going for 5th dan performing a kata that is just a sequence of moves?
> 
> If I was starting over again I could be 5th dan TKD by age 10, 1st dan BJJ by 20, 5th dan Goju by 40, 2nd dan Aikido by 60 and with that amount of understanding I might just be able to cobble together a reasonable kata. Unfortunately starting at 66, even with a bit of experience I am about 60 years too late.


The day that I have realized that nobody ever tried to  use

- kick, punch to set up clinch, 
- clinch to set up lock and throw,  
- lock and throw to set up ground game, 

the day that I lose my respect to those ancient form/Kata creators. 

In the 21th century, the integration of kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game is much more important than the ancient "striking art only" way of thinking.


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## sopraisso (Mar 6, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The day that I have realized that nobody ever tried to  use
> 
> - kick, punch to set up clinch,
> - clinch to set up lock and throw,
> ...


I'm wondering what you mean in this post. I'm guessing you are being sarcastic, right?

If you think karate kata don't teach exactly how to setup everything you actually need for real fighting and if you view classic karate as a "striking only" art you are really completely clueless about what karate is about (not that this is a rare condition even among long time practitioners).


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## clautz (Jun 6, 2015)

I really appreciated he videos on seisan kata.  I believe the Shorinryu - Shotokan - Isshinryu seisan katas are in the same family;  Uechi - Wado Ryu, Gojo a different family - The Korean systems (unsure).  If you are going to pull back the layers of the onion then start with the earliest form of Seisan which are Shorinryu which bred Shotokan and Isshinryu.  Likely Goju's form is earliest in that family of hard styles.  By looking back it is like reading a book in the original Greek and you can pick up new meaning and twists you might not catch if you read the book in English, i.e. eros and agape::love.  Remember "Seisan" means "Thirteen" only, i.e. Thrirteen steps; Thirteen opponents, Thirteen breaths and having so many Kata called "Thirteen" may just be coincidental just like many of you may have twelve step kihon katas; or twelve step warm-ups, etc.  I doubt all of these versions of Seisan came from one mother source.  Be careful -- there are no secrets in karate only "Hagakure" -- hidden in the leaves.  Sweat, more sweat, thought, trial and error brushes the leaves away.


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