# WSL pivoting clip



## guy b (Dec 5, 2016)

WSL explaining why he pivots on heels


----------



## wckf92 (Dec 5, 2016)

guy b said:


> WSL explaining why he pivots on heels



Exactly


----------



## Danny T (Dec 5, 2016)

Depends on what the other person is doing so...sometimes...Yes.


----------



## KPM (Dec 5, 2016)

Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL.   The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet.  The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot.  If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around."  Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot.  He swings to  the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes."  But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that.  We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight.  So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests.  Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!


----------



## Marnetmar (Dec 5, 2016)

KPM said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL.   The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet.  The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot.  If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around."  Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot.  He swings to  the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes."  But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that.  We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight.  So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests.  Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!



This, pivoting on the toes does not necessarily entail swinging your body clear over to the side.

_(I will confess that I actually used to do that at one point in time)_


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 5, 2016)

KPM said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL.   The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet.  The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot.  If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around."  Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot.  He swings to  the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes."  But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that.  We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight.  So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests.  Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 5, 2016)

Too bad WSL did not have the benefit of  your advice


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 5, 2016)

KPM said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL.   The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet.  The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot.  If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around."  Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot.  He swings to  the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes."  But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that.  We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight.  So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests.  Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!



Yes probably, if you count normal alignment. Some of us find other ways. WSL, just a typical viewpoint, not anything wrong with that per see, but adaption is something many lack, if looking for perfection.


----------



## KangTsai (Dec 6, 2016)

I don't disagree with his point, but to me it's kind of like arguing between the low and middle option.

When shadowing that position right there, my instinct is to just step forward while punching + redirecting the hand, making a right cross. 

I think the inefficiency of that hip shift from the toes comes in simply because you're standing with hips square. It creates the need for that detail to restrict unnecessary motion, when you could just step forward to improve the motion of the attack efficiently which WSL stresses here. What your pivot is doesn't matter, it's the position you ultimately achieve.

I am not by any means acceptably knowledgeable with wing chun, I am just talking from a general perspective. Please correct me on anything.


----------



## KPM (Dec 6, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> Too bad WSL did not have the benefit of  your advice



Too bad he didn't have the benefit of your snarky comments.


----------



## geezer (Dec 6, 2016)

There are a lot of ways to turn effectively. My old Chinese sifu insisted on turning on the "center of the foot". This was consistent with _his_ system. I've experimented with other methods and have to agree with Keith that _distancing _when turning is really a function of whether or not you shift your vertical axis laterally as you pivot.

If you shift your axis (i.e. shift your weight) laterally as you turn, you will create distance. This may be a good or bad thing depending on what you are trying to achieve. IMO, what matters most is that you can move quickly, with balance, and maintain forward intent. These are attributes of good fighters regardless of lineage or style.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 6, 2016)

geezer said:


> There are a lot of ways to turn effectively. My old Chinese sifu insisted on turning on the "center of the foot". This was consistent with _his_ system. I've experimented with other methods and have to agree with Keith that _distancing _when turning is really a function of whether or not you shift your vertical axis laterally as you pivot.
> 
> If you shift your axis (i.e. shift your weight) laterally as you turn, you will create distance. This may be a good or bad thing depending on what you are trying to achieve. IMO, what matters most is that you can move quickly, with balance, and maintain forward intent. These are attributes of good fighters regardless of lineage or style.


There is Learning, there is Practicing, and there is Fighting. 
Who, What, When, Where, Why will give you the How.
There is nothing 100 percent 100 percent of the time.


----------



## guy b (Dec 6, 2016)

KPM said:


> Sorry, but I have to disagree with the great WSL.   The difference is not whether you are shifting on the heels or shifting near the balls of the feet.  The difference is whether you shift on a central pivot point or allow your body to swing to one side when you pivot.  If you let your body swing off of a central pivot, then the punch does not travel straight to the target, but rather has to "go around."  Watch the close up of WSL demo'ing the two kinds of pivot.  He swings to  the side when he shows the pivot "on the toes."  But in Pin Sun we don't not let the body swing to the side like that.  We pivot on the K1 point near the toes while still pivoting around a central pivot point so that the punch goes straight.  So again, it isn't a matter of what part of the foot you are pivoting on, as WSL suggests.  Its really a matter of whether you maintain a central pivot point or not!



Assume you push off back foot in Pin Sun?


----------



## KPM (Dec 6, 2016)

guy b said:


> Assume you push off back foot in Pin Sun?



Do you mean during the pivot?  Or when stepping forward?  There is not push off with the pivot.  You just pivot.  When stepping in, yes we would push off with the back foot.


----------



## guy b (Dec 6, 2016)




----------



## geezer (Dec 6, 2016)

^^^ ??? Please explain your diagram and it's relation to this discussion.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 6, 2016)

guy b said:


>


Interesting...have no idea what is being presented but it's interesting.
In Pekiti-Tirsia we have some footwork patterns that are similar. What is the meaning of the solid lines and the dashed lines?

Oh, hold on a moment. Is it that the solid lines are the feet being straight ahead and the dashed lines are the feet after the pivoted? The lines to the left represents pivoting on the toes and the lines to the right represent pivoting on the heels?


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 6, 2016)

I have no comment on the diagram. But I do have some comments on pivoting in wing chun----there are quite few different systems from people in Ip Man families. I leave slant body and gulao alone.Among Ip Man groups
there seem to be the following imo.
1. Leung Shun's turning one foot at a time--you see it in Ben Der and Kenneth Chung
2. Leung Ting got his start with a relative who was Leung Shun;s student
3. William Cheung's toes are not turned inwards and he steps to turn
4. Folks who supposedly turn on their K1 point
5. WSL's pivoting on the heel
6. Ho Kam Ming  pivoting on the heel-integrated knee usage.There is no leaning back

Variations in large part depending on time spent with Ip Man


----------



## dudewingchun (Dec 7, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> 4. Folks who supposedly turn on their K1 point



What do you mean supposedly? Its just an ideal weight distribution point for certain lineages including my own. I prefer it to turning on the heels.


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Oh, hold on a moment. Is it that the solid lines are the feet being straight ahead and the dashed lines are the feet after the pivoted? The lines to the left represents pivoting on the toes and the lines to the right represent pivoting on the heels?



Yes, pivoting on the toes moves your base away from the point of contact


----------



## wckf92 (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


>



I spy with my little eyes....an M,....and a W


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> Yes, pivoting on the toes moves your base away from the point of contact



Only if you allow your body to swing across as I described above and as WSL illustrates in his video.  If you pivot around a central point and don't swing your body across, then pivoting near the balls of the feet is no different than pivoting on the heels in regards to the relationship of your base to the point of contact. Again, its not a matter of what point you use on your foot to do the pivot.  Its a matter of what happens to your body/base as you pivot.


----------



## LFJ (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> Only if you allow your body to swing across as I described above and as WSL illustrates in his video.  If you pivot around a central point and don't swing your body across, then pivoting near the balls of the feet is no different than pivoting on the heels in regards to the relationship of your base to the point of contact. Again, its not a matter of what point you use on your foot to do the pivot.  Its a matter of what happens to your body/base as you pivot.



Pivoting on the balls of the feet causes the feet to move in the opposite direction of your line of force and end up further from the target.

Plus, those who pivot on the balls of the feet often do it in order to sway their body off the incoming line. This is the method WSL is talking about here.


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> Only if you allow your body to swing across as I described above and as WSL illustrates in his video.  If you pivot around a central point and don't swing your body across, then pivoting near the balls of the feet is no different than pivoting on the heels in regards to the relationship of your base to the point of contact. Again, its not a matter of what point you use on your foot to do the pivot.  Its a matter of what happens to your body/base as you pivot.



Heels are the backstop of your base. Pivoting on front of foot moves your foot and your base further away.


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Plus, those who pivot on the balls of the feet often do it in order to sway their body off the incoming line. This is the method WSL is talking about here.




And, as I have described several times now....you don't have to sway your body off the incoming line when you pivot on a spot other than the heels.  Therefore, the problem is not what part of the foot you pivot on.....but rather whether you allow your body to sway off the incoming line.


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> Heels are the backstop of your base. Pivoting on front of foot moves your foot and your base further away.



If you pivot the way WSL demo's, then yes.  But you can pivot on a spot other than the heel without moving your base away.  Its simply a matter of bending the knees.


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> If you pivot the way WSL demo's, then yes.  But you can pivot on a spot other than the heel without moving your base away.  Its simply a matter of bending the knees.



You can pivot on a spot further forward on the foot and have your weight over it, but your heels, the backstop position your feet will assume when you receive force, will be moved further away from the target. 

If you intend to exert or receive force while pivoting then not optimal, unless you wish to move away from target while dealing with force.


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> You can pivot on a spot further forward on the foot and have your weight over it, but your heels, the backstop position your feet will assume when you receive force, will be moved further away from the target.
> 
> If you intend to exert or receive force while pivoting then not optimal, unless you wish to move away from target while dealing with force.



If you actually bend your knees, then the central vertical line that you are pivoting around stays stationary and does not swing to the side.   You send force with a kinetic chain that pushes off from the ball of the foot, not from the heel.  The heel on the ground absorbs when RECEIVING force, which shouldn't be happening while you are pivoting.  Boxers certainly don't punch hard with their rear heel on the ground.


----------



## LFJ (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> And, as I have described several times now....you don't have to sway your body off the incoming line when you pivot on a spot other than the heels.  Therefore, the problem is not what part of the foot you pivot on.....but rather whether you allow your body to sway off the incoming line.



Who said you have to? WSL was talking about the method of doing so, compared to his method.



KPM said:


> You send force with a kinetic chain that pushes off from the ball of the foot, not from the heel.  The heel on the ground absorbs when RECEIVING force, which shouldn't be happening while you are pivoting.  Boxers certainly don't punch hard with their rear heel on the ground.



I think we've had this discussion before. Do we need to pull up the tennis player pics again?


----------



## Vajramusti (Dec 7, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> What do you mean supposedly? Its just an ideal weight distribution point for certain lineages including my own. I prefer it to turning on the heels.


---------------------------------------------------------------
Do it the dudewingchun way-your way.

No worries here.


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Who said you have to? WSL was talking about the method of doing so, compared to his method.




I will explain again, for what....the third or fourth time?  In that video clip WSL is showing the difference between the two pivots and references pivoting on the heel vs. pivoting near the toes.  I pointed out that the true difference is not whether you pivot on the heels or near the toes, but whether you allow your body to swing off of the line.  Is that so hard to follow?


----------



## LFJ (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> I will explain again, for what....the third or fourth time?  In that video clip WSL is showing the difference between the two pivots and references pivoting on the heel vs. pivoting near the toes.  I pointed out that the true difference is not whether you pivot on the heels or near the toes, but whether you allow your body to swing off of the line.  Is that so hard to follow?





And I'll explain for my 3rd time...

You know many who pivot on the toes do so to sway their body off the incoming line, right?

That's the method WSL was comparing to his own.

Why is that so hard to follow?


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> I will explain again, for what....the third or fourth time?  In that video clip WSL is showing the difference between the two pivots and references pivoting on the heel vs. pivoting near the toes.  I pointed out that the true difference is not whether you pivot on the heels or near the toes, but whether you allow your body to swing off of the line.  Is that so hard to follow?



Pivoting on toes moves your base away from the opponent, pivoting on heels does not


----------



## geezer (Dec 7, 2016)

Am I the only one who sees that you and KPM are saying the same thing but still managing to turn it into an argument?


----------



## geezer (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> Pivoting on toes moves your base away from the opponent, pivoting on heels does not



In some cases this can be a good thing. BTW I'm a "center-of-the-foot, one-foot at a time" turner. Something like what LT picked up in his years under Leung Sheung (See Joy's post on turning).


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

LFJ said:


> And I'll explain for my 3rd time...
> 
> You know many who pivot on the toes do so to sway their body off the incoming line, right?
> 
> ...



Because......he explained it as being the pivot point that counts.  IT IS NOT!  It is the whether the body sways to the side or not that counts.


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> Pivoting on toes moves your base away from the opponent, pivoting on heels does not



And I have pointed out multiple times.....swaying the body to the side is what moves your base away from the opponent.  Pivoting near the balls of the feet does not when you keep your weight distro 50/50, keep the knees bent, and pivot around your central pivot point.  In that case, there is no difference between pivoting on the heels and pivoting near the balls of the feet.   WSL is right in the video clip, but for the wrong reason.


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> Because......he explained it as being the pivot point that counts.  IT IS NOT!  It is the whether the body sways to the side or not that counts.



Pivot point is important in terms of how your base changes


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> Pivot point is important in terms of how your base changes



Fine.  You believe whatever you want.  I'm done trying to explain something to someone that doesn't want to understand.


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

Simple geometry. Your feet are moving away from the opponent, and so is your base


----------



## KPM (Dec 7, 2016)

guy b said:


> Simple geometry. Your feet are moving away from the opponent, and so is your base



Nope.  Simple biomechanics.  Your base is not centered over your heels.  Or at least is shouldn't be if you want good balance!  But whatever.....believe what you want.


----------



## guy b (Dec 7, 2016)

KPM said:


> Nope.  Simple biomechanics.  Your base is not centered over your heels.  Or at least is shouldn't be if you want good balance!  But whatever.....believe what you want.



I know that your weight is centred over the pivot point, but the backstop of your base is still your heel. This becomes important when handling force.


----------



## LFJ (Dec 8, 2016)

guy b said:


> I know that your weight is centred over the pivot point, but the backstop of your base is still your heel. This becomes important when handling force.



Maybe you should dumb down your diagram for him; add little footprints and another person on the side?


----------



## KPM (Dec 8, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Maybe you should dumb down your diagram for him; add little footprints and another person on the side?



If he doesn't have time to pull up a video of PB showing a specific punching method, what makes you think he has time to dick around with a diagram??


----------



## guy b (Dec 8, 2016)

KPM said:


> If he doesn't have time to pull up a video of PB showing a specific punching method, what makes you think he has time to dick around with a diagram??



Not sure of the punching method you would like me to find PB showing?


----------

