# Shaolin Do Karate



## JadeDragon3 (Dec 26, 2007)

I'm going to be the instigator and stir the pot a little bit and ask what everybody's oppinion is of the awesome art of Shaolin Do? Bogus or fraud? Do you believe thier story about thier lineage? They state that there lineage started with Hairy Man.....lol. No joke! If this has already been discussed then sorry I was to lazy to check for prior discussion on this topic. 

http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html

This is the better web sit....

http://sinthe.com/


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## clfsean (Dec 26, 2007)

You've got enough going on two other boards ... there's no need for it here.


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## arnisador (Dec 26, 2007)

It's been discussed here. The founder did indeed have a disorder that affected his appearance, but I don't see the relevance of that.


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## dancingalone (Dec 26, 2007)

The Shaolin-do school in my city is well-equipped and large.  The instruction seems impersonal and not too in-depth, but I imagine that changes when you advance in the system.  I watch a beginner class, and I thought there were too many students and not enough attention paid to fine details. 

I watched some of their elite students perform some sets and they are athletics even if they lack some of the core strength and connection I have observed in some of my CMA friends.  Again, that may just be due to the local instructor.  I'm not going to bash the system.  At the very least their students are getting a work out.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

Shaolin = Chinese
Karate = Japanese


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## Nyrotic (Dec 26, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Shaolin = Chinese
> Karate = Japanese


 
I've heard that the reason they do that was because Shaolin-Do was around during the time that alot of Chinese cultural bodies, especially Kung Fu, were outlawed in China during some revolution. I forget when, but it's a huge part of their history, google it if you want. So they disguised their system as a Japanese one. Now I might admit that from what I've seen, it's really up to the student to learn half of what the school teaches in regards to actual fighting. However, I only ever went to one school for about a year and a half, so who knows what else they have to offer. In regards to their lineage, I can't say anything for sure, really. (I used to be Shaolin-do).


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 26, 2007)

clfsean said:


> You've got enough going on two other boards ... there's no need for it here.


 
Thats funny.....lol. Your on all the chat forums aren't you? Yeah, your probably right, I got enough going on on the other forums huh???.....LOL.
Just had to stir the pot on this forum as well. I guess I'm just bored and nothing to do here at work.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> I've heard that the reason they do that was because Shaolin-Do was around during the time that alot of Chinese cultural bodies, especially Kung Fu, were outlawed in China during some revolution. I forget when, but it's a huge part of their history, google it if you want. So they disguised their system as a Japanese one. Now I might admit that from what I've seen, it's really up to the student to learn half of what the school teaches in regards to actual fighting. However, I only ever went to one school for about a year and a half, so who knows what else they have to offer. In regards to their lineage, I can't say anything for sure, really. (I used to be Shaolin-do).


 
aaaa no

I do not believe that Kung Fu was disguised as Karate in China during any revolution (no googling necessary). The only revolution that Kung Fu was a problem that would have had knowledge of Karate was the Cultural revolution that started in 1966 and since the majority of Chinese at the time old enough to be teaching kung fu pretty much hated the Japanese due to the atrocities they perpetrated on the Chinese during World War 2 I do not think they would have used anything Japanese. Also Kung Fu was not the issue it was Martial Arts therefore Karate, Kung Fu, no difference it was not allowed. And Mao was not all to fond of the Japanese either, he fought them in WW 2


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Dec 26, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I'm going to be the instigator and stir the pot a little bit and ask what everybody's oppinion is of the awesome art of Shaolin Do? Bogus or fraud? Do you believe thier story about thier lineage? They state that there lineage started with Hairy Man.....lol. No joke! If this has already been discussed then sorry I was to lazy to check for prior discussion on this topic.
> 
> http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html
> 
> ...


 
Not this again. :waah:


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## xiongnu_lohon (Dec 26, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I'm going to be the instigator and stir the pot a little bit and ask what everybody's oppinion is of the awesome art of Shaolin Do? Bogus or fraud? Do you believe thier story about thier lineage? They state that there lineage started with Hairy Man.....lol. No joke! If this has already been discussed then sorry I was to lazy to check for prior discussion on this topic.
> 
> http://www.shaolingrandmaster.com/biography.html
> 
> ...



As I've said on other forums - my little map may not be much but I will not put anyone from that organization on it. It's not cma as far as I'm concerned so I won't refer other people to it. 

Good discussion above.


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 27, 2007)

Nebuchadnezzar said:


> Not this again. :waah:


 

Yep.


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## JadeDragon3 (Jan 11, 2008)

dancingalone said:


> The Shaolin-do school in my city is well-equipped and large. The instruction seems impersonal and not too in-depth, but I imagine that changes when you advance in the system. I watch a beginner class, and I thought there were too many students and not enough attention paid to fine details.
> 
> I watched some of their elite students perform some sets and they are athletics even if they lack some of the core strength and connection I have observed in some of my CMA friends. Again, that may just be due to the local instructor. I'm not going to bash the system. At the very least their students are getting a work out.


 
No, from what I have seen ALL of the SD schools have way to many student in the class with little student/teacher interaction. They (the schools) really don't care though because they want your money. Thats the Shaolin Do Way. Just ask GM Sin, he'll tell you. Thier advanced students are pretty bad as well. It's not just thier begginers. There are very few in SD that are good. Elder Master Leonard or whatever bogus title he has is good. GM Sin is good. And there are maybe 2 or 3 other good martial artist in the organization.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 11, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> No, from what I have seen ALL of the SD schools have way to many student in the class with little student/teacher interaction. They (the schools) really don't care though because they want your money.


 
You know this for a fact?  You have watched and critiqued EVERY instructor in this system?  You are in a position to make a blanket statement like this, and you feel it is without dispute, in every instance?

I'm not the champion for Shaolin-Do, but I did work with one of their instructors for a while in about 1991 or so.  It was just he and I.  Not a big class with too many students.  And he never accepted any payment from me whatsoever.  I was a broke college student, I had no money to offer, and he never asked for any.



> Thats the Shaolin Do Way. Just ask GM Sin, he'll tell you.


 
You've done this? What did Mr. Sin tell you, to your face?



> There are very few in SD that are good. Elder Master Leonard or whatever bogus title he has is good.


 
He is good, so his title is bogus?  Any organization can use whatever title they wish.  How does that affect you?



> GM Sin is good. And there are maybe 2 or 3 other good martial artist in the organization.


 
again, you've met them all, and you can pass judgement on them?  Only two or three, plus GM Sin?  You know this absolutely?

What's your real motive here?  Are you just on a hate kick or something?


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

Regardless of Shaolin-Do's quality (or lack of) the argument is pretty weak


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## Durrett (Jan 12, 2008)

Yes a very weak argument.  Just look who it is comming from!  I've trained some of the Shaolin-Do system and they have some good things to offer.  My question Jade_Dragon is why you feel the need to attack other styles when your own has man problems.  Do we need to really start this up or are you willing to be a good member.  I know I'm trying to be a good member.
AL


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## Jin Gang (Jan 13, 2008)

Bogus?...It is real martial arts.
Fraud?...The line is less clear, but I believe that according to the law no, there is no fraud.  Since the word "shaolin" in the United States has no legal definition, it can refer to almost anything.  Heck, even in China there are tons of styles that say they are "shaolin", or from shaolin, and they're all very different.  No one can prove it didn't derive from shaolin.

Shaolin derived martial arts exist all over southeast Asia, not just in China.  Different languages have different words for it, but it's the same thing.  In Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore, Thailand, and Indonesia, Chinese people emigrated and brought their martial arts with them.
  Sin The is of Chinese heritage, born and raised in West Java, Indonesia.  I believe he attended the school of Ie Chang Ming, which according to his brother actually had several instructors all teaching different styles.  Like a little "shaolin temple" of martial artists of their own community.  The forms and styles which make up the core of the Shaolin Do curriculum are all known to be commonly found in the area of West Java, including internal arts tai chi, pa kua, and hsing i.  Except for the internal arts, all the styles are considered "shaolin derivative".  Indonesian brands of Lohan, White crane, and black tiger are all found in that area.  This is pretty much what makes up the first 2-3 years of the shaolin do curriculum.  

I believe Shaolin Do is primarily a blend of Chinese kuntao from West Java.  There are some forms added later to the style from outside sources, I think, but primarily everything taught can be found in Indonesia.  

A legitimate complaint against the style, I feel, is that there is too much material taught too quickly.  The practicioners would move and look better if more time was spent on the basics, and on each form and style.  But it is widely acknowledged among almost everyone I've talked to from all over the country, that the pace of learning is very fast.  The schools in the west, (which aren't called Shaolin Do, but "Chinese Shaolin Centers"), all have this problem.  

Although Japanese words were used within the style, there is no Japanese or Okinawan content.  Why these terms were chosen I can only guess.  Maybe in the Indonesian school they did this, and it was just transplanted, as is the official excuse.  I rather think some of it has to do with the fact that Sin The did not speak any English when he came here, he was self-taught.  In the US, back then, and even today, most people use the word "karate" to mean any Asian martial art.  No one had ever heard of shaolin, or kuntao, or quan fa, or any other Chinese or Indonesian term.  I wouldn't doubt that some of Sin The's first students had experience in karate, and were familiar with the Japanese terms for everything.  My theory is that Sin The chose to call his style "karate", because that is what everyone he knew in Kentucky called it.  He used Japanese style uniforms because that is what was available in Kentucky in the sixties, and a belt system like Japanese martial arts, because that is what other successfull martial arts schools were doing.  
  Today, the schools in the western US have dropped all Japanese terms, but still use the Japanese uniform.  In Georgia, they have even adopted a Chinese style uniform.  What you call things and how you dress doesn't change the content of the style.  
It is not traditional Chinese martial arts in a cultural sense, because it comes from Indonesia.  But the Indonesian kuntao styles are close to their Chinese counterparts, because they are practiced primarily by the Chinese immigrant community.  

 It is true, if you read an advertisement and think you are going to get shaolin martial arts as seen at the temple today, you may feel mislead.  From what I am told, having crazy lineages and telling tall tales is somewhat common amongst Indonesian martial artists.  It's not an excuse, but maybe an explanation.  And for what it's worth, though quality of instruction may vary, the content is Chinese kuntao from Indonesia.  No Japanese stuff at all.


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## Durrett (Jan 14, 2008)

Good post.  I think Jade_Dragon just likes to poke fun at others in order to make himself feel better.  Obviously Jade hasn't learned anything from his training in the great style of whatever he does.  Doesn't sound like he does much of a style or hold up real martial artist traditions of developing respect and proper manners.  So Sad and so pathetic.  

I hate it when people argue over silly things like this that have NO weight bearing on the reality of the martial arts world.
AL


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## JadeDragon3 (Jul 24, 2008)

Durrett said:


> Good post. I think Jade_Dragon just likes to poke fun at others in order to make himself feel better. Obviously Jade hasn't learned anything from his training in the great style of whatever he does. Doesn't sound like he does much of a style or hold up real martial artist traditions of developing respect and proper manners. So Sad and so pathetic.
> 
> I hate it when people argue over silly things like this that have NO weight bearing on the reality of the martial arts world.
> AL


 
Oh I have learned a lot from my training.  And the "whatever" style I do is called Sil Lum Kung Fu.....Cantonese for Shaolin.  My school uses that name so it isn't confused with what Sin The' teaches.  As for holding up traditions and manners......I have plenty of that.  I just use them when they deserve to be used.


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## Ninebird8 (Jul 24, 2008)

I just have a couple of things to say here. I have been doing CMA for a long time and all three of my teachers are recognized and so are their lineages, though two of my masters trained most of his childhood overseas (Leung Shum in Ying Jow Pai, Jeff Bolt under Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, and Ricky Anderson under Wang Fui Yen in Hong Kong), and I always knew not only my lineages but tried to research others. As I have studied over the  years, I have come to realize that my only concern is that I studied under recognized and traceable masters so, if I chose to do so, I could open a school and hang the pictures of my masters and grandmasters and claim legitimacy of my art. My Ying Jow brother has been to the Shaolin Do school in Atlanta and told me of the same complaints mentioned here. But, with respect, I believe this discussion belies a bigger issue for the CMA: in this modern age, how do we keep the art traditional and pure, maintain its true fighting and health aspects, and yet make money since our true arts take a considerable amount more time to learn than MMA, UFC, or other traditional arts, especially if you are learning an animal derivative. 

I have also been involved in the stupid politics of the CMA organizations that have caused our US teams to drop precipitously in skill and reputation world wide in international competitions. Eventually, the true and not so true arts will be discovered where they have always been: in the streets trying to protect oneself, in the competitions against other schools, and in the ability of each school's students to become good citizens and become both true fighters and true healers. A master should be able to heal as well as kill. Thus, I really do not care about the legitimacy of Shaolin do at this point, though it does bug me they use a Japanese term. But then, Shorin Ryu, the first karate system in Okinawa, was founded by a Shaolin monk from Hunan province and Shorin is the Japanese word for Shaolin. 

In my estimation, as long as we as both students and teachers propagate the right way of thinking in the CMA, and teach our students the right way, then everything else is really unimportant.....with respect.


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