# Kuntow/Kuntaw instructor



## donald (Feb 9, 2002)

Any one familar with a gent by the name of Guy Savelli? He teaches a system called "Chinese Kuntaw". I recall seeing his name mentioned in Blackbelt awhile back. The guy who quoted his name was I believe Mr.Casamasa. From Red Dragon Karate, the dad not the son. I have heard conflicting reports as to this instructors martial skill. Anyone able to shed some light on the subject? As always, no offence intended. Just curious.     :asian:


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## Cthulhu (Feb 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by donald _
> *Any one familar with a gent by the name of Guy Savelli? He teaches a system called "Chinese Kuntaw". I recall seeing his name mentioned in Blackbelt awhile back. The guy who quoted his name was I believe Mr.Casamasa. From Red Dragon Karate, the dad not the son. I have heard conflicting reports as to this instructors martial skill. Anyone able to shed some light on the subject? As always, no offence intended. Just curious.     :asian: *



This is just my personal opinion, but this:

http://www.worldkungfu.com/personal3.html 

on Savelli's site doesn't sit well with me.

Cthulhu


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## donald (Feb 11, 2002)

I took a look at the videos on this site demonstrating "the whip", and I am not sure what else. It did'nt look like much of a demonstration. Looks like he walked up on a subject, and wacked him in the chest? If there are any practioners of this style/system on the forum. I would like to hear more about the principles etc., behind it. Also is there anyone who can shed some light on Mr.Savelli? His training background etc.. I have no real agenda. I have heard of the gentleman for years, but never really anything concrete. 
Salute in Christ


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2002)

Sorry it took a while.  This is copied from a post made to RMA in 1997:



> As I understand, and I do, Guy Savelli studied maybe 8 months under Willem Reeders and makes exaggerated claims, that he challenged to fight Reeders with the mind, he is a lunatic according to my sources.
> Reeder's Kun Tao is Fukchin Kuntao with dragon and snake styles. He also did Silat. That is not to say that Savelli is legitimate, he makes a lot of false claims. He was probably a karate man at one time so he does have a martial arts foundation.
> 
> In Wichita you could look up Shelley Misllspaugh 316-267-0590, he studies Kuntao with Steve Todd who is under Guru Tua Chuck Stahmann, my senior student and now a senior instructor under Willem de Thouars. Steve Todd is in Arkansas at 501-636-6678, and 501-855-6769. They also both practice Kali and Steve Todd does Jun Fan.
> ...



Cthulhu


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## Ante (Mar 16, 2004)

donald said:
			
		

> Any one familar with a gent by the name of Guy Savelli? He teaches a system called "Chinese Kuntaw". I recall seeing his name mentioned in Blackbelt awhile back. The guy who quoted his name was I believe Mr.Casamasa. From Red Dragon Karate, the dad not the son. I have heard conflicting reports as to this instructors martial skill. Anyone able to shed some light on the subject? As always, no offence intended. Just curious.     :asian:



Hello Donald,
As far as Master Savelli's martial skill goes I am very impressed by it.  That said I am not any kind of a expert.  He has been contracted by the U.S. special forces for over 20 years and that must say something about his skills.  

I see that you are in the Willoughby area.  If you get a chance I would recommend going to Master Savelli's school for a free class/demo.  His school is about 5 min. from Willoughby.  Check the local phone book for the address/number.  That would probably be the best way to decide if it is right for you.

Hope that helps,
Ante


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## 7starmantis (Mar 16, 2004)

Wow, having looked around on his website I would say I'm not to impressed. Check out this thread as well about it. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12716

7sm


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## OUMoose (Mar 16, 2004)

This is second hand info, but the I trust the sources very much.  The guy is a loon.  Supposedly touts the ability to make himself invisible and shapeshift into a wolf, all of which he can teach YOU for xxx bucks a month.  My opinion: Keep yourself far away.


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## OULobo (Mar 16, 2004)

ahhh. . . . Mr. Savelli. I used to live in Mentor and Mr. Savelli has schools scattered about the Lake County area. I have never met Mr. Savelli, but I have had experiences with many other Indo-FMA groups that tell quite a few stories, and being originally from the area I run into a student or story every so often. So all you get from me is second hand and should be taken as such. Secondly, it involves all the whole machismo and hush-hush stuff that seems to be ingrained in some Indo arts. Also I would like to mention that I did get the chance to meet one of his beautiful twin daughters when I was much younger, and she was among the nicest and most fun people I've met (I think she used to help teach dance at one of his schools).

In the interests of keeping out of a flame war, if anyone wants to hear my tales please PM me. 

I will say that the people I know who have seen them train say they can really do with stuff on the videos. They are pretty fast and well conditioned. If you are interested then go check it out and see for yourself, but be aware and don't get too caught up in it.


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## MJS (Mar 16, 2004)

LOL!  Funny this should be posted here.  There is the same discussion about this guy taking place on another forum that I belong to.  IMO, the guy seems like a fake.  I looked at his site and I wasnt impressed at all!  Anyone how says that they can knock people out that are in a different room that they are....well, that to me sounds like someone who is living in a fantasy land, not in 2004!!  As I said on the other forum.  You can look at anyones web site and see testimonials from students.  Also, getting a BB today is very easy.  I mean, you can order the things right out of a catalog!!!  So, whos to say that this guy is as legit as he says?

Mike


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## OULobo (Mar 16, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> LOL!  Funny this should be posted here.  There is the same discussion about this guy taking place on another forum that I belong to.  IMO, the guy seems like a fake.  I looked at his site and I wasnt impressed at all!  Anyone how says that they can knock people out that are in a different room that they are....well, that to me sounds like someone who is living in a fantasy land, not in 2004!!  As I said on the other forum.  You can look at anyones web site and see testimonials from students.  Also, getting a BB today is very easy.  I mean, you can order the things right out of a catalog!!!  So, whos to say that this guy is as legit as he says?
> 
> Mike



Would you mind posting a link to the other forum. It may be helpful.


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## MJS (Mar 16, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Would you mind posting a link to the other forum. It may be helpful.



Absolutely!!  Here it is.  www.psdtc.com

The Inst. Ron Kosakowski is an awesome Inst.  I train with him when I can, and every time, I walk away with so much!  He has spent many years training under Joe Rossi, in Kun Tao.  There is alot on his site, including descriptions of what his school offers, a bio on him, a forum, and an explaination of each art that he teaches.  

Let me know what you think after you check it out.

Mike


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## OULobo (Mar 16, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Absolutely!!  Here it is.  www.psdtc.com
> 
> The Inst. Ron Kosakowski is an awesome Inst.  I train with him when I can, and every time, I walk away with so much!  He has spent many years training under Joe Rossi, in Kun Tao.  There is alot on his site, including descriptions of what his school offers, a bio on him, a forum, and an explaination of each art that he teaches.
> 
> ...



Thanks MJS. I ahecked out the site and read all the postings about Savelli on the Kun Taw forum. Looks like most of the people on it have the same general opinion. The big problem is that I don't know anyone that can confirm any of his claims. I think he claims lineage under Reeders and Wetzel. I don't know students of either that will claim him or to have seen him with the masters. I can vouch for the students of Sykes (Reeder's highest), as I have trained with a few of them here in Cleveland. I can't say much about Wetzel's people. They pop up around here every so often, but I have only trained with one guy who was supposed to be a master and he was pretty lacking in skill and ability. I hear many of the others are pretty good. I'm not much for Kun Tao. It seems a little polluted with people that have attitudes I'm not fond of. I'm not speaking of the Rossi group you train with because I know next to nothing about that style. I believe I read it was filipino in origin so it is probly pretty different from the other Kun Tao styles. I only have any knowledge of Kun Tao because of my location and because I train Silat and many Kun Tao people fancy themselves as silat practitioners. 

BTW looks like a pretty cool school to train at. The instructor Ron looks very able as a teacher and willing as a student. Those are the best instructors. He has a great line-up for a curriculum. It helps when you get in with the Inosanto group, but the Kun Tao gives him something a little more unique to offer his students. Very nice.


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## MJS (Mar 17, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> Thanks MJS. I ahecked out the site and read all the postings about Savelli on the Kun Taw forum. Looks like most of the people on it have the same general opinion. The big problem is that I don't know anyone that can confirm any of his claims. I think he claims lineage under Reeders and Wetzel. I don't know students of either that will claim him or to have seen him with the masters. I can vouch for the students of Sykes (Reeder's highest), as I have trained with a few of them here in Cleveland. I can't say much about Wetzel's people. They pop up around here every so often, but I have only trained with one guy who was supposed to be a master and he was pretty lacking in skill and ability. I hear many of the others are pretty good. I'm not much for Kun Tao. It seems a little polluted with people that have attitudes I'm not fond of. I'm not speaking of the Rossi group you train with because I know next to nothing about that style. I believe I read it was filipino in origin so it is probly pretty different from the other Kun Tao styles. I only have any knowledge of Kun Tao because of my location and because I train Silat and many Kun Tao people fancy themselves as silat practitioners.
> 
> BTW looks like a pretty cool school to train at. The instructor Ron looks very able as a teacher and willing as a student. Those are the best instructors. He has a great line-up for a curriculum. It helps when you get in with the Inosanto group, but the Kun Tao gives him something a little more unique to offer his students. Very nice.



I'm glad that I could help!  As for the different styles of KT..well, the only one that I know the most about it the one that Ron teaches, and also because I really never knew much about it until I met him.  My Arnis Inst. is also a student of Rons, so at times, he throws in a little KT into the Arnis.  Unfortunately, due to my schedule, I'm not able to make it to Rons as much as I'd like.  The majority of my training from him comes through the workshops that he offers.

Mike


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## markulous (Mar 17, 2004)

The sliding kicks that he teaches still make me and my Sifu laugh.


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## monkey (May 17, 2006)

Ok as far as i was told from the reeders family Savali-Sikes-Solomoney-Donzela never trained with reeders.Sikes did meet him briefly & Wetzel but was told not toclaim the art.The reeders line acording to his wife & Jerry Bradigan is not kuntao based nor has any in it.It is Tibetan TaiChi.Wetzel Had the Kuntao & any one not of wetzel & claimed it had short comeings.


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## monkey (May 17, 2006)

I almost forgot you were talking of Kuntao-Hey look in 1970 the Presas line we did kuntao under Jose Bonco y Presas.Remy & Ernesto tought as Brothers for awhile & I have the video & class photos,We kick in kuntao.So If you do 70s-80s arnis presas line there is a good shoot you had a bit of kuntao.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 18, 2006)

Lert me first say I have never met Mr. Savelli and wouldn't know him if he walked past me.  However I have seen the results of his teaching and it turned my stomach.  2 guys I came up through the kyu ranks with one went to black belt and one decided to go train with Savelli.  Well the one who went with Savelli came back after about 3 years or so to visit and the other one who had gone to black belt and he were friends and used to love to spar each other.  Well the black belt asked the other one to spar and the response was no I can't because he only did full contact now and he had learned how to *kill.*  Well they ended up fighting full tilt and the black belt almost put Savelli's student in the hospital.  It took the poor guy 45 minutes to get up off the floor and then it was only enough to literally crawl out of the room.  Keep in mind they had the same about of training time and were only 1 rank apart.

Another one is the whole deal of him hitting his students with broom sticks and saying they have to devolop themselves to be able to take that kind of punishment.  I have seen those demonstrations where there were tears coming out of the persons eyes. The person who got hit did it volunteerly and was an ex-navy seal so he was no slouch.

Mr. Savelli does not have a good reputation in this area and I would be hessitant at best to go train with him just going by what I have heard and seen.


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> I almost forgot you were talking of Kuntao-Hey look in 1970 the Presas line we did kuntao under Jose Bonco y Presas.Remy & Ernesto tought as Brothers for awhile & I have the video & class photos,We kick in kuntao.So If you do 70s-80s arnis presas line there is a good shoot you had a bit of kuntao.



Very curious still about this connection. I have no doubt that Remy and Ernesto Taught together. I am curious as to why this matters to this thread? Are you saying that some of techniques are Kuntao in Modern Arnis? Or are you saying the techniques are good techniques and appear in multiple arts?


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

Jose the father tough kuntau to the military as were as arnis.Stoke the grandfather had corto or close range much like serada but diferant.Now mix close cutting abinco  & kuntao & you have Jose Bonco y Presas line of arnis.The 1975 patchwe had  has a gold type of book & over top or laying on it was a kriss & stick to show the merge of the 2 arts.I do have the kuntao class on film.Plus if youwatch the 1-3 I bleave the Pratical defence of Remy He did kuntao take downs & the balintawak student Erwin Carmicheals is in it.So Is there balintawak & kuntao in both line Remy & ernie YES> and I have the certifacate of such.In the forum look up ok whos tom carnes & scroll down youll see 4 threds to click use the last & it tells I am authentic as my ranks.


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## liuseongsystem (May 18, 2006)

Guy Savelli does not represent Master Reeders Liu Seong sytem of martial arts.

he makes outlandish claims of ridiculous psychic abilities, and has the gall to claim to have defeated GGM Reeders in combat.

feh,

he is a stain on the name of the art in America.

I have seen some of his video.  It a an obscene parody of the Liu Seong system.

These are some of the men who actually trained under Master Reeders, with time, effort and achievement.

Art Sikes
Carl Spitale
Bob Servidio
Jerry Bradigan
Gary Galvin

there are others, but these men are already proclaimed students, known on the internet. i wont violate the privacy of others.


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## monkey (May 18, 2006)

i verify & acknolage that .Im wetzel line as you know & neither knew of him


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## SilatFan (May 20, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Ok as far as i was told from the reeders family Savali-Sikes-Solomoney-Donzela never trained with reeders.Sikes did meet him briefly & Wetzel but was told not toclaim the art.The reeders line acording to his wife & Jerry Bradigan is not kuntao based nor has any in it.It is Tibetan TaiChi.Wetzel Had the Kuntao & any one not of wetzel & claimed it had short comeings.


 

Monkey, 
If your going to say that people are lying about their training and martial history at least spell their names correctly.  

If *Marilyn stated that GGM Reeders line did not have any Kuntao in it then she is lying to you.  Everyone from that era KNOWS that GGM taught and therefore knew Kuntao.  One source of info might be the DeThouras brothers who mention him and his Kuntao knowledge.  But I would believe that Marilyn herself did not know anything about the art and did in fact only learn the Tai Chi.  *

*And as far as your statement that *Sikes did meet him briefly & Wetzel but was told not to claim the art.*  Where do you get that from???   Marilyn again?  How would she know if GM Sikes trained with GM Wetzel?  I have heard, from two present day GM Wetzel instructors, that GM Sikes overstates the ranking he received from GM Wetzel but to deny that he trained at all with either is ridiculous.*


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## SilatFan (May 20, 2006)

liuseongsystem said:
			
		

> Guy Savelli does not represent Master Reeders Liu Seong sytem of martial arts.
> 
> he makes outlandish claims of ridiculous psychic abilities, and has the gall to claim to have defeated GGM Reeders in combat.
> 
> ...


 
Liuseongsystem, out of curiosity, which one of these gentlemen is your teacher or maybe which of these men taught your teacher?  Id bet it is not Servideo or Bradigan.


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## SilatFan (May 20, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> Lert me first say I have never met Mr. Savelli and wouldn't know him if he walked past me. However I have seen the results of his teaching and it turned my stomach. 2 guys I came up through the kyu ranks with one went to black belt and one decided to go train with Savelli. Well the one who went with Savelli came back after about 3 years or so to visit and the other one who had gone to black belt and he were friends and used to love to spar each other. Well the black belt asked the other one to spar and the response was no I can't because he only did full contact now and he had learned how to *kill.* Well they ended up fighting full tilt and the black belt almost put Savelli's student in the hospital. It took the poor guy 45 minutes to get up off the floor and then it was only enough to literally crawl out of the room. Keep in mind they had the same about of training time and were only 1 rank apart.
> 
> Another one is the whole deal of him hitting his students with broom sticks and saying they have to devolop themselves to be able to take that kind of punishment. I have seen those demonstrations where there were tears coming out of the persons eyes. The person who got hit did it volunteerly and was an ex-navy seal so he was no slouch.
> 
> Mr. Savelli does not have a good reputation in this area and I would be hessitant at best to go train with him just going by what I have heard and seen.


 
Mr. Fisher,

I have couple of thoughts on your comments as someone who is a teacher and has trained with a number of MAs and specifically in this subset of Kuntao practitioners.  First, I found your story funny  not because I dont believe it - but because I've seen that sort of thing before.  

Second, as a teacher I would hate to be judged by what one person who says he is a student does or how he performs.  I think all teachers have had more then a few students who show up for a couple of classes, dont attend class for a month to two, return for another short stay and then go on another long sabbatical (After repeating this cycle for a couple of years they still cant understand why they dont progress).  But non the less when you talk to them they say they have been training for 3 years because it sounds a lot better then off and on for 3 years (with emphasis on the off ).  
I say this not because I couldnt imagine Savelli not being able to train anyone into a killing machine (typed with sarcasm and a laugh) but only because I respect what I have seen at his school whenever I visited.   M. Savelli is controversial, to say the least, the one thing I have not heard (nor seen) is that he and or his students are poor martial artists.  Ive visited his school a few times and came away respecting their skills.  

Thirdly, maybe the ex-navy seal he was no slouch would be another good indication of Savellis skill set.

Peace


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## Brandon Fisher (May 20, 2006)

Good point.  Like I said though hear say is one thing seeing something first hand is another.  Thats why I won't make personal judgements until I see for myself but will pass on the hear say as hear say.


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## liuseongsystem (May 23, 2006)

SilatFan,

my teacher is GM Sikes.  I was/am his stepson.  He raised me from the time i was about two or three until i was ten yrs. old.  I also trained with Master Copeland for several years.  


_'Ok as far as i was told from the reeders family Savali-Sikes-Solomoney-Donzela never trained with reeders.Sikes did meet him briefly & Wetzel but was told not toclaim the art.The reeders line acording to his wife & Jerry Bradigan is not kuntao based nor has any in it.It is Tibetan TaiChi.Wetzel Had the Kuntao & any one not of wetzel & claimed it had short comeings.'_

_LOL_

_yea, that's why i was at Liu Seong's house so many times as a kid.  ridiculous aint the word._

_'met him briefly.'...LOL._

_Kuntao....LOL_

_wow, this is getting stupid._


_as far as goeroe wetzel goes, i dont know anything about my teacher's experience or rank.  but why did he take him on t.v.? _


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## cleveland guy (Jul 20, 2006)

My personal experience with Guy Savelli:

I'm a Cleveland local and have studied many martial arts/philosophies over the past 20 years. I took a few lessons with Guy and can say this:


Guy forgot the whole humility thing that goes hand in hand with the arts; he literally robbed money from my bank account on 3 different occasions - claiming he had the right to (i'd given him my account number to purchase tapes he makes students buy) since he'd given me such great gifts . . . ie the gifts of healing.
I never saw him do anything other than raise his voice; however his students - and I've seen some great artists in my time - are incredible.  Lying about Reeders or not, some of his guys, including his son, are true bad asses and yes, the whip they use is unique to them in their delivery and is devastating.
I am going to try kuntao under Sikes - as I'm fascinated by the system after exposure under Guy.  But Guy is an ***#@@@ as a man; I hope he doesn't read this and kill me like those poor goats.   In all, mixed reviews - freak of a man, but solid results in his students.


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## vmijjg91 (Sep 1, 2006)

I would like to add some information to the question of students of GM Reeders. Some of the first individuals to train from Master Reeders beginning around 1960 were the following: 

Robert Servidio
Art Sikes
Harry Zimmer
Artis Simmons
Ed Carter

Of these individuals the longest to train and the one whom received the entire system from Master Reeders was Master Robert Servidio. Master Servidio passed on his knowledge to several individuals, the top student of his was Master Scott Young. I have had the honor of training with Master Servidio and Master Young. After 1965 Master Reeders stopped teaching pure Kun Tao. Guy Savelli started around 1964 as did Ed Seely and Ray Cunningham. After 1965 Master Reeders began teaching what he referred to as Tibetan Tai Chi.

My comments are not intended to disparage any individuals or discredit their claims. My intention is to state was has been relayed to me through my Kun Tao lineage.


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## arnisador (Sep 1, 2006)

vmijjg91 said:
			
		

> Tibetan Tai Chi.



There was a Tibetan Tai Chi school in Albuquerque but I never got a chance to check iyt out. What is it like?


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## Iron Monkey (Dec 6, 2006)

SilatFan said:


> Liuseongsystem, out of curiosity, which one of these gentlemen is your teacher or maybe which of these men taught your teacher?  Id bet it is not Servideo or Bradigan.


 Sykes


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## frankiefuller (Jun 14, 2007)

School in Albuquerque is pretty good.  I dropped by there one time March 2006 I think and met this old black guy in front of the school and started talking to him.  He didn't want to say much because he was worried somebody might put his pic up on the Internet or misuse the info if he talked about Kuntao.  He was old, but didn't realize he was 72 and in great shape!  He was going to not let me take a class but I told him I did some Kuntao with a local guy where I live who was a student of Bill Reeders and later a student of Ray Cunningham.   He liked that and let me take a class for free for awhile.  Let me say this: the conditioning was insane and warmup drills brutal.  These two graying old ladies were in the class (maybe they're some of the instructors there), and I was 28 at the time I dropped by (I'm 29 now).  I thought, hey I could keep up, I have several black belts in traditional Korean arts, nothing to it, and they're all old.  Wrong.  The training was brutal, unbelievable amount of conditioning, and the guy ended up letting me take a free class for awhile until throwing me out after over an hour (because I was doing a freebie class or something) but was nice and said here I gave you some stuff to do until you come back next time in town.  Hey, he told me his name was Jameel and was a student of Art Sykes.  Man, his hands were so fast that it was amazing.  Alot of the backhand slap stuff, but I felt old with these guys and they seemed young and full of energy despite the age.  They were all in better shape than me.  Now I'm pretty humble and won't let age fool me again.  I don't feel bad that I couldn't keep up because I realize martial arts is a learning process and I'm still young, even after 21 years of martial arts, I still have alot to learn.  I'm going to pick up the Kuntao training towards the orange sash pretty soon again, once I can get another guy to continue it and we can do it together.


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## Str8nasty (Jun 20, 2007)

Hi new to forums just wanted to say to those of you who want to bash on Guy and his demonstrations let me enlighten you.

First off before you bash anything know youre facts. The "Navy seals" as you called them were not navy seals at all in fact they were army delta.

Anyone that knows anything knows army delta pwns Navy seals as far as special ops go.

Secondly the broom handle training and watery eyes you refer too was infact not being used to condition but rather as a demonstration of the ability to generate a energy shield around youreself to deflect incoming objects. The technique is know as "disintegration".

Thirdly Guy has been studied by the Army mind sciences branch out of fort benning and has documented evedience of himself deviating prerecorded microtapes and stirking objects with his mind.

Fourthly the invisability and look of the leopard is nothing more then making you see what i want you to see in youre own mind. Do you really think our faces change pysically??

So bash bash bash all i know is that a without hucchung there is no kuntao.

And lol go and test youre skillz against them just walk into there school and throw a kick or a lol punch and see just how fast you loose a eye both legs and the ability to have children.

Peace and love Nasty


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## Carol (Jun 20, 2007)

*Moderator Note

**
ATTENTION ALL USERS

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Thank You,

- Carol Kaur -
- MT Moderator - 
*


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## empresa (Feb 6, 2008)

Thank you Carol.

I was (am) a student of Master Savelli. I have a lifetime membership to his dojo.
I know him to be a decent and nice person. 
His style is unorthodox, yes. So it should be with anyone who is an innovator. To be a Grand Master, I feel you _must_ have your own style, not simply be great at something someone else teaches. 
I would say here, that a real testament to Guy's greatness is that you are all talking about him, (and some not real nicely) and he has not taken the bait.
I would also suggest that the Army's Delta unit would not be asking him to train them if he didn't know something they don't...

I would hope you all would attempt to learn about a man before trashing him.
I used to teach Ishin Ryu, and I can tell you that Karate in any form would _definitely not_ be useful, or wise to try to use against someone Master Savelli had trained and that understood the higher forms of Chi and Huc Chun.
All you need to know is on the web. Just Google his name and see if he is your run of the mill Karate instructor like I used to be...

Also, look in to the May 2005 issue of Playboy Magazine.

I stand up for Master Savelli because he will not.
chris, Gulfport, FL


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## arnisador (Feb 6, 2008)

I used to study Isshin-ryu prior to the FMA. Both have their strengths.


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