# Mature Content! Making Friends In My New Neighborhood: So Whos the ******* Here?



## Cruentus (May 2, 2005)

*Making Friends In My New Neighborhood: So Whos the ******* Here?*

This is a funny story, but it applies to self-defense. I debated putting this in the locker room, but it brings up the question of where is the line drawn between appropriate assertiveness and aggressiveness that is not conducive of good self-defense.

The question I have is, who is the ******* here? Plus, there are many things here that I could have done differently, so this is good for all of our learning experiences. The story is as follows:

I just moved in to this area, and I am at Meijers (the only grocery store/gas station for miles) to fill up my gas at the gas station at 4 oclock in the afternoon. I am waiting in line talking to a friend on the phone. There are 3 cars in front of me and 2 behind me. I wait and wait, and finally it is my turn, and the available pump is on the other side of the station by the exit, requiring me to drive around everyone to get there.

As I am driving around, a beat up van pulls in through the exit, and B-lines right for the open pump. I stop and we make eye contact while he is now very slowly pulling into the filling area. He is a large man (about 250) with a mustache. I gesture with my thumb for him to back out. He yells, What!? What!? while throwing his hands up erratically. So, honk my horn, shake my head, and slowly mouth the words, Back out while gesturing for him to do so with my thumb. He continues to yell What!? while waving his hands, and finally stops in the spot at the pump.

Now, understand that with some of the bad behavior I have been witnessing over the past few weeks, I have reached my tolerance level. I am tired of people getting away with bad behavior, with no recourse. If I cant stop the behavior without putting others or myself in jeopardy, then I am going to at least let them know that they are behaving badly.

I put my car in park, and tell my friend who is still on the phone with me, Hold on, I have to take care of something.

I get out and walk over to the driver side of his truck. Here is the dialog exchange:

Me: Excuse me, but did you realize that there was a line, and you just cut in front of everyone, and me?

Him: Whatever! I get my gas here all the time!

Me: Thats great, but I dont think that gives you special privileges to cut in front of everyone in line.

Him: *Scoffs, followed by incoherent mumbling* 

[He had no intention of moving or apologizing at this point]

Me: You know thats fine. Fill up your gas. But, understand while your doing it that YOURE an *******!

[I start to walk to my car, when he yells after me]

Him: Youre an *******!

Me:  [turns around] Excuse me? Im not the self-important dick head who feels he needs to cut in front of everyone in line. But, if you want to believe that IM the one at fault here then fine. That only solidifies the fact that youre a ****ing *******. But go aheadhave fun filling up your gas, ****ing *******!

Him: Hey, watch your mouth! You cant be swearing in a public place like that!

Me: Oh yea! **** You! Hows that for swearing in a public place? You have the nerve to cut in front of a line of people, AND THEN try to be the morality police with my language? ****your lucky swearing at you is ALL that I am doing. If I were someone who didnt care about going to prison, Id be smashing your skull into the ****ing concrete right now, so consider yourself lucky.

Him: bubububu [Sarcastically tries to mimic my voice]

Me: Thats fineI hope you do keep it up, and I hope that the next guy you piss of WONT be concerned about jail time, and WILL smack you in your fat ******* mouth. Enjoy your gas, *******!

[I get back to my car. The line had cleared, and the next spot that opened up right when I got to my car was right next to this guy. So, Im thinking, greatnow I get to stand there and endure this guys presence after that lovely exchange. At this point, I have said all that needed to be said, and then some. But, I knew this guy wasnt finished, and I was a bit concerned that he would want to get physical. So I told my friend on the phone, Dude, I gotta goI might be getting into a fight. I hung up the phone. I pulled up to the pump, got out, and began filling my tank. A couple minutes pass, and then he comes over to me. He keeps his distance, but he says]

Him: Heyif you wanna go somewhere and take care of this, we can go. Ill kick your ****ing ***!

Me: Hey bro, Im right here. I dont need to go somewhere special to fight. So, if you want to be an even BIGGER ******* and try to kick my *** AFTER cutting in front of me in line, go right ahead. Swing on me. However, I dont think youll like the consequences.

[He looks at me, looks down, then walks over to his car again. He thinks for a minutethen says]

Him: Well, you just keep talking with your little foreign car!

Me: Yes, and while you fill up your gas guzzling piece of **** child molesters van, Ill put gas into my environmental friendly car that was actually made in a plant right here by unionized Americans, knowing at least that I was courteous enough to wait in line for it, unlike other inconsiderate *******s like yourself. 

Him: Yeaif you want to be a follower, then go ahead. Im a leader

Me: Its not about being a follower or not. Its about being considerate to other people. And, if you want to inconsiderately cut in front of people because youre so busy and self-important, then that only makes you a leader of *******s.

Him: Man, you got some mouth on youswearing like that. Didnt your parents teach you how to behave?

Me: Well, I did learn that cutting in front of people in line, and then being belligerent afterwards is not the way to behave.

Him: Yeawell I got kids, man. I dont like swearing, and I dont teach my kids to talk that way!

[Keep in mind that he was alone, and no children were in earshot of us that I could see]

Me: Im impressedI thought you would have said that you LEARNED them not to talk that way. Well, I hope that you learned em real good other important things, like being courteous to others, and to waiting your turn.

[Silence for about 30 seconds]

Him: Well.maybe I shouldnt have cut in front of you, and I didnt realize there was a line. Butbutyou shouldnt have been swearing like that.!

Me: Stop right there. Had you of said that to begin with; had you of said that you didnt realize there was a line and that you shouldnt have cut in front of everyone, then I wouldnt have sworn at you. I would have probably just let you go ahead without objection.

Him: WellI didnt start swearin til you did!

Me: And I didnt start swearing at you until after you cut in front of everyone with no remorse. But, if it will make you feel better, I can see where maybe I could have used different, less crude language.

Him: Fine. I just dont like swearing anymore then you like people cutting in front of you. So well just leave it at that!

Me: Sir, well leave it any way youd like.

[At that point, he begins talking to me about how he had a bad week and lack of sleep, and how he was sure I did too, and how he was sorry and that he just wasnt paying attention to see a line. This was followed by small talk.as if now, after all that, he was like my buddy or something]

All I have to say is that this is *frickin' hilarious!!* Understand, that I had people at the other pumps cracking up. I know that I didnt really DO the right thing, and had it turned into a fight, I could have been facing a whole host of problems that could have been avoided. I know that in many ways, my approach was wrong. But boythis guy SOOOO deserved it, and everyone knew it. My little audience thought it was great; it was like I was saying everything they wish they could have said to this guy, and every other inconsiderate jerk out there who has no regards for other people. Man, this was a classic.

So, who was the ******* here?

Also, where/how does one draw a fine line from being assertive yet safety minded to escalating a conflict and being too confrontive?

Interesting questions that we should all think about.

Funny story, but I cant say that I was totally right, because this could have gone really wrong. SureI was armed to the teeth at the moment, but that certainly could have made things even worse with my approach.

Anyways, just thought I would share for your entertainment, and education. :asian: 

Paul :supcool:


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## MJS (May 2, 2005)

That was great Paul!!!  I have been in similar situations, so I know what you were feeling at the time.  You admit that you may not have done the 'right thing', but then again, who wants to be walked on by someone?  I don't know about anyone else, but I really don't like to be a door mat!  It seems to me that this guy was attempting to intimidate you, but soon realized that he was digging himself into a deep hole that he could not get out of, and soon started to back pedal his way out.  

In the end, things were worked out, w/o having to resort to violence.  I often think out what a pain in the rear things would turn out to be, if I slugged every person like this guy.

IMHO, this guy was the cause of this verbal exchange, so my vote goes to him for being the A Hole!!!!  As for where to draw the line...unfortunately, its hard to know, because if you look at someone wrong, they're ready to start something.  However, like I said in the beginning...I don't like to be a door mat, so once that fine line is crossed, its hard to control what comes out of my mouth.

Mike


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## Bammx2 (May 2, 2005)

Hooaa!

Its about time people start standing up for the rights of EVERYBODY!
 In any other given day,this guy would have punked everybody around him cause he KNOWS no one will stand up to him.
I am so sick of people sayin..."oh no,thats what the police are for"...they can't do everything and be everywhere at all time, and not to mention these whiny people who constantly say.."just walk away,he's not worth it....rise above it"...bite me.
THAT is the attitude that makes victims!
Vigilanteism? I think not.
 Its just time people start standing thier ground and letting others know they can't get away with this stuff!
 I bet the guy in this story re-thinks EVERY situation from now on.
HOOAA!


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## MA-Caver (May 2, 2005)

I agree that it's good that you admit that you were really being the ******* first because you billigerently confronted him for being an arsehole. Intially (IMO) the first part of the exchange should've *NEVER* happened. The second part; when you were filling up and you began talking civil enough to understand one another and he admitted his mistake for cutting in front of everyone, that should've taken place firstly. 
Yeah, I've been in those impossible pump situations as well (who hasn't? raise your hands... see it happens to everyone), where you're in position waiting for someone to move and you can fill up and time draws out like a blade; particularly when you're in a hurry but _need_ the gas to get there, and some ******* cuts in line in front of you making you wait even longer and thus being later than you already are. 
But you made a bad choice. It's a bad choice particularly for you because you as a skilled fighter and martial-artist *chose* to get upset over the whole thing and get confrontational. The old adage goes violence begets violence. Letting someone know that they've upset you is one thing. Letting someone know what you *think* of them because they upset you is another.  I don't mean to preach about what I think consitutes a martial artist but it is within my sphere of belief and experience that a _true_ martial artist would not have reacted nor use the tools to spark a confrontation. I'm not saying you are not being a true martial artist Paul, I'm just pointing out that it could've/should've/would've been handled differently, had you kept that in mind. 
I get folks that tick me off a lot of the time. Usually I just roll with it and go on. If I'm in a bad mood I'll still weigh (best to my ability based on my experience) the best way to go about it. I'll let people know that I'm not too happy, but I'll do it hopefully without pushing any buttons. Sometimes, however, some people have a hair-trigger and it only takes one guy behind them in line to grumble loud enough for them to hear to set them off. Can you tell who that may be? If so you're better at reading people than I am. 
Point is, the more skills we acquire during our journey through the life of martial arts the more care we should excercise in our dealings with people... particularly *******s. Ultimately we may invertedly put our skills to use when we don't desire to do so because our emotional content is disturbed and we may end up (seriously) hurting someone that we only wanted to just verbally chew out to begin with. The fact that you were 





			
				Tulisan said:
			
		

> armed to the teeth at the moment


 that it could've landed you in jail whether you wanted to or not. Replay the incident in your mind again and imagine the guy getting into your face (while you were pumping) and giving you a nice little shove... what would've happened (accounting your feelings and adrenaline rush) to the guy then? Oh sure you'll call it self-defense when the EMS are zipping the guy in a black bag and you're giving the arresting officer your statement, but who (really) started it? Who pushed that guy's buttons enough for him to go up and "touch" you without your permission? 
It's good that you and the guy resolved peacefully and left on good terms and feeling better that it didn't get any worse than a school-yard shouting match. You probably scared the guy and it seems that he was relieved that it didnt' go far and shared his reasons for being such an arsehole. He probably did deserved *what* you gave him but (think about this) was he deserving of *YOU* giving it to him? 
Stand your ground yes, Bammx2 but there's no need to be a walking ******* while doing it eh? 
You are the only person (in the moment) who can draw the line in a situation like that because you are superiorly trained and armed. You are the one who makes the decision to "draw a fine line from being assertive yet safety minded to escalating a conflict and being too confrontive." The more we train in our chosen arts the more "dangerous" we become. It is our responsibility to weild these weapons (our hands, our feet, our minds) wisely and appropriately. :asian:


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## Adept (May 2, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Oh sure you'll call it self-defense when the EMS are zipping the guy in a black bag and you're giving the arresting officer your statement, but who (really) started it? Who pushed that guy's buttons enough for him to go up and "touch" you without your permission?


 On a side note - Aggravated assault, as a defense, has been eliminated over here. Which means if you are charged with assault, the defense 'But I was Aggravated!' is not valid. Which is fair enough. But it also applies in reverse.

 Which is to say, if you were in the situation above and had cause to defend yourself (with lethal force if it worked out that way) then the prosecution would be unable to claim you aggravated the victim into attacking you, and that you are ipso facto responsible for the situation.

 Obviously there would be a host of other factors, but no one would be able to claim you goaded him into attacking you, and use that to lay guilt on you.


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## shesulsa (May 2, 2005)

That was farking hilarious, Paul!  Dangerous and hilarious!!  Dang, you do live in hickville, doncha? :wink2:  Thanks for sharing!


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## The Kai (May 2, 2005)

Actually it's a peeve of mine too.  You arfe patiently waiting, then some clownm thinks he is being so freakin' clever by jumping past you


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## TonyM. (May 2, 2005)

Well done Paul. I have no tolerance for blowhard jerks either. I would have done exactly the same thing.


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## Rich Parsons (May 2, 2005)

*Moderator Note:
Edited post titles to conform with Profanity Filter

Rich Parsons
Martial Talk
Super Moderator*


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## arnisador (May 2, 2005)

So, Paul beat someone by talking him to death? Should I be surprised?


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## KenpoTex (May 3, 2005)

One part of me says "way to go bro."  There are a lot of people out there who act like F-ing A-holes either because they is one or because they just don't stop to think about others.  It definately feels good to get it off your chest and put them in their place.  I can't say that I haven't done similar things.

BUT,

like you already acknowledged, and everyone else has stated.  It may not be the smartest course of action.  The problem is that you never know when it'll turn out okay and you actually manage to drag an apology out of them; or when it'll go down like the pizza-place thing a few months ago where the guy ended up in the hospital because he called someone for cutting in line.  Of course, if the guy had gotten combative, you would probably have wasted him which then creates the problem of explaining to the boys-in-blue why a high-level MA'ist dropped someone at the local gas'n'go.

Like I said, it feels good to call BS once in a while, just be careful.


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## Cruentus (May 3, 2005)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> Like I said, it feels good to call BS once in a while, just be careful.



Right there is the moral of the story condensed.

Yes, it was a funny story. Yes, it is great to see the inconsiderate person get called out on his actions. And yes, the guy deserved it.

BUT....I would never advocate my behavior as the choice course of action in a self-defense class, or otherwise. You all are correct; had it escalated to a physical confrontation, I could have been in a world of trouble. Even if I was determined to be in the right by the court system, that would only be after thousands of dollars in court costs, bail money, etc.

And, as someone who understands how lawsuits work - even if YOU KNOW that you are going to win the case, none of that helps the mental stress and uncertainty of going through a criminal or civil suit. Nothing. Because you'll be putting your family, loved ones, and even friends through that experience whether you mean to or not.

Sometimes, even if your right, you have to ask yourself "Is it worth it." Most of the times, it isn't.

Paul


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## Zepp (May 3, 2005)

:rofl:
Feeling stressed out lately Paul?

Good story.  Now here's the question: if you had to do that day over again, would you do everything the same?


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## Tgace (May 3, 2005)

From the "somebody needs to stand up to ********" side of the house Id say "way to go".

From the "risk vs. reward" and "pick your battle" side of the house...not so much.

Having training and weapons means you have to take more **** in the long run than less...it sucks but its true.


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## CMack11 (May 3, 2005)

:mp5: 

This is what should happen to people who do what that guy did.  I'm glad to hear you did what you did, it really ticks me off when jokers get away with selfish stuff like that.

I'm a little more abrasive than most, but I don't really see much of a problem w/ the way you handled yourself.


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## c2kenpo (May 3, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> But you made a bad choice. It's a bad choice particularly for you because you as a skilled fighter and martial-artist *chose* to get upset over the whole thing and get confrontational. The old adage goes violence begets violence. Letting someone know that they've upset you is one thing. Letting someone know what you *think* of them because they upset you is another.



Paul I commend you for your courage to at least express yourself but agree with MC on this one. 
We ALL have been in situations that just seem ridiculous and really get under our skin "pet peeves" the tru challenge is how we face those. 

A prime example is my per peeves with grocery carts being left in parking lots. I have repaied over $200 in damages due to shopping carts. Of course Gorcery/retail stores are not responsible so WHO IS?? I try to park right next to the cart returns but still my car seems to be a magnet to the damned things.

So on a finl lovely day I am leaving to get in my car from a Wal-Mart when I see a lady empty her cart across from my car in the same aisle and simply "shove the cart aside" as I am walking closer the cart dangerously careens to my vehicle (magnet) and I have to run carring my grociers to stop it from colliding. Of course I get luck and catch it but in my haste and anger ( knowing I saw it) I shout:
G*D D*MN WHY DON"T PEOPLE PUT THESE THINGS WERE THEY BLOODY BELONG!

I had to a take a moment to hang my head as several people were startled by my outburst. I walked camly over towards the lasy that "let the cart go" and apologised for my outburst and explaind that I had been a "cart crash" victim sevral times and it has been quite expensive. I was trying to be rude when I yelled and apologised. She looked at me dumbfounded but suddenly realized the error in judment she made thinking what if it was her car. She apologised as well and I simple smiled and told ther "Thank you have a great day." 

Now no one knows if she will put the cart where it belongs from now on but I personaly think that as martial artists WE need to set the EXAMPLE and help spread the light. Takes time and paitence (LORD GRANT ME MORE) but I believe we can make the world a better place. 

Paul once more kudos on your courage to try to do the right thing. And by the way ... Where do you put your grocery shopping cart?? 
 

David Gunzburg


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## arnisador (May 3, 2005)

Zepp said:
			
		

> Now here's the question: if you had to do that day over again, would you do everything the same?


 Ah, a good question!


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## sgtmac_46 (May 4, 2005)

The only problem I had a part with was the profanity, which was understandable given the circumstances. What probably resolved the situation was the fact that you talked to him like a child AND stood your ground. He tried to intimidate, and that just resulted in you talking to him MORE like a child. 

Most people think this escalates the situation, but sometimes it puts a person in a position where they are actually forced to feel guilty. Especially if you are extremely assertive and consistent with it. I don't mean baby talk, I mean the way you'd talk to your 13 year old if you caught him trying to light the kitchen table on fire. 

I use this on the job often, usually with drunks. They call me every name they can remember from their limited vocabulary, and I simply ask them how old they are again. I had a drunk guy once challenge everyone in the station to a fight. This is after he kicked out the back police car window after he was put in the back seat. 

The guy was 37 years old, so I asked him if he had any kids. Still beligerant, he told me he had a 17 year old son. I then asked him at what point he was going to grow up. I said that having a 17 year old son, he had an obligation to set an example for his son. I then asked him how proud his son would be to see him acting the way he was. He grew silent, so I pressed on. I told him that after 37 years of doing what he was doing, it might be time to grow up and be a man. It was at that point that this guy who was going to kill everyone in the station with his bare hands 10 minutes before, started crying. He then apologized to everyone and started talking about how he had ruined his own life. 
Again, leave out the profanity, and you'd have had the absolute high ground. I specifically like how you steered the conversation away from his physical challenge without appearing to be afraid of him. This allowed the conversation not to deterrate in to a peeing contest about who can beat who up. Again, it's not bad to stick up for yourself. 

One of the other things I think helped avoid a conversation is that you were assertive in the way you handled the situation, as opposed to the pizza guy someone mentioned earlier. He was very passive aggressive in that confrontation, using his cell phone as a prop to verbally attack the female subject. This actually escallated the situation because it simultaneously enraged the big male subject more (nobody likes passive aggressive) AND emboldened him in to thinking that he had nothing physically to fear from this guy. Assertive is much safer than passive aggressive, in my experience, if you know how to steer the confrontation away from physical.


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## Gemini (May 4, 2005)

I was on another board when that whole pizza shop issue hit. Though I was sypathetic to the guy who got beat up, I got flamed because I said he brought it on himself and the whole situation was avoidable.

I, like everyone else has had similar situations. The older I get, the more I tend to avoid the confrontation. It just isn't worth it. I have always had a hot head and am not very good at controlling the temprance of a confrontation. I tend to get overly aggressive as Paul did. That's actually why I started TKD in the first place. Unfortunately, avoiding them altogether many times leaves me more agitated for days. There has to be a balance somewhere, right? What *MACaver *stated made alot of sense though.

_[He probably did deserved *what* you gave him but (think about this) was he deserving of *YOU* giving it to him?] _

Think I'll chew on ot for awhile.

Regards,


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## Shogun (May 4, 2005)

Paul that was pretty good. sometimes ya gotta follow the Sayoc idea. Self defense is a victim's word.


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2005)

Zepp said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> Feeling stressed out lately Paul?



Yes.  :anic: 



> Good story.  Now here's the question: if you had to do that day over again, would you do everything the same?



No. I can't say I wouldn't have confronted him, but I can say that I would have done quite a few things differently.


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## Cruentus (May 5, 2005)

should probably elaborate on what I would have done differently. I wouldn't have used as much profanity. I am not morally against profanity at all, and I think that it has it's place and can solidify a point. However, excessive profanity tends to bring you down a level in repsect, and it gives them another point to focus on rather then their own poor behavior (as this guy did).

Also worth noting, I am not going to latch on to any sort of fantasy ideals of "would a true martial artist act this way." The best thing I can do is be honest with myself and others, which is why when I post something like this, I am going to be honest about it and unafraid to point out mistakes that I may have made. The second best thing I can do is to realize that my actions are a mirror of me, and represent me as a person. So when I make mistakes, it only says that I am human; but at the time I am making the mistakes, I am representing myself poorly. Thirdly, there is the issue of picking your battles and looking at the cost/reward aspect when deciding to confront someone. If confronting could get you into a fight and a lawsuit, sometimes it ain't worth it even if your in the right.

That all said, I do feel that it was right to confront this person, and I am glad I did it. Sometimes confronting bad bahavior is the right thing to do. However, I could have done a few things differently. I am just glad that I am the type of person who can admit it.

Paul


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## Tgace (May 5, 2005)

Nicely admitted and stated.


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## Gemini (May 5, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> The best thing I can do is be honest with myself and others, which is why when I post something like this, I am going to be honest about it and unafraid to point out mistakes that I may have made. The second best thing I can do is to realize that my actions are a mirror of me, and represent me as a person. So when I make mistakes, it only says that I am human; but at the time I am making the mistakes, I am representing myself poorly..... .....However, I could have done a few things differently. I am just glad that I am the type of person who can admit it.
> 
> Paul


That's all you really can do. Yes, we all make mistakes, but we don't all live up to them. You've not only done that, but reflected on it and learned from it. That's no small thing.


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## Cruentus (May 6, 2005)

Wow...thanks guys....   :asian:


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## dearnis.com (May 6, 2005)

Late add-on...
I feel your pain.  I know where you are coming from.  I think the story is a riot because it turned out well.  
But....
Dude, if that had escalated you would have issues to deal with years down the road.

That siad, and I think you realize it, well done.


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## Sin (May 9, 2005)

I am pleased that you used your words............and you shown control, by not knocking the guys head off....BUT you could have just let it go, and just be passive.  The way i am taught is that you only fight if your life/well being is threatened.  Your life wasn't threatened, it was your pride.  I commened you for your physical control, but for your mental you lose points.


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## Cruentus (May 10, 2005)

Sin said:
			
		

> I am pleased that you used your words............and you shown control, by not knocking the guys head off....BUT you could have just let it go, and just be passive.  The way i am taught is that you only fight if your life/well being is threatened.  Your life wasn't threatened, it was your pride.  I commened you for your physical control, but for your mental you lose points.



Gotta disagree with you there on a point.

Being passive is not always the answer. Also, my pride was not hurt at any point in the conflict, so it had nothing to do with that. It boils down to the simple fact that people shouldn't be allowed to get away with bad behavior. When is someone is doing something inconsiderate or behaving badly, sometimes calling them out on the behavior IS the right thing to do. 

One just needs to use descretion, tact, and good judgement when doing so. I was flawed mostly in my tactfulness.

Paul


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## sgtmac_46 (May 10, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Gotta disagree with you there on a point.
> 
> Being passive is not always the answer. Also, my pride was not hurt at any point in the conflict, so it had nothing to do with that. It boils down to the simple fact that people shouldn't be allowed to get away with bad behavior. When is someone is doing something inconsiderate or behaving badly, sometimes calling them out on the behavior IS the right thing to do.
> 
> ...


Amen brother. Living a passive life was not what this country was founded on. The meek do not inherit the earth, that's just something people tell the meek to keep them passive and controlled. There is nothing wrong with standing up for yourself. 

The sad fact is that the majority of people (including many martial artists) are afraid to stand up to these type of people out of fear. Then they disquise their fear as if it were some sort of virtue, and create huge myths about it. 

Bravo for not knocking the guys block off, but also bravo for telling him how it is. He'll most likely be more considerate the next time he pulls up to the pumps. You were assertive AND managed to show this guy how big of a jerk he was, something that couldn't have been done if you had physically beat him up. Confidence in your physical ability to do so, however, created a situation where you weren't afraid to engage him in some pointed verbal dialogue. 

You did nothing wrong, except maybe the profanity.  Imagine if our forefathers had worried about offending the British, or became so concerned with fear and not creating a confrontation that they were afraid to act.  There wouldn't be a United States of America.  I'm by no means equating your actions with the founding of our country (lest someone decide to try and debate me on that silly point), however there was a mindset present in that time that I don't see illustrated as much in modern society.


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## BoxANT (May 11, 2005)

agreed, i feel that one can be calm, relaxed and gentle w/ out being passive.  that is to say, can still be assertive... but in a mature manor.

just look at Rosa Parks.


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## Ender (May 11, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Gotta disagree with you there on a point.
> 
> Being passive is not always the answer. Also, my pride was not hurt at any point in the conflict, so it had nothing to do with that. It boils down to the simple fact that people shouldn't be allowed to get away with bad behavior. When is someone is doing something inconsiderate or behaving badly, sometimes calling them out on the behavior IS the right thing to do.
> 
> ...



Well I think you are wise to realize that maybe it went a little too far than it should have and you let your emotions get a bit of a hold of you. At least you can reflect this and learn from it. I know in the heat of even a verbal conflict that things can escalate real quick. On one hand I love to see blowhards get their come uppance, but on the other, was it worth it? I don't know if you have children, and had things gone bad you may have had to have a conversation like this:

"Daddy, why are you going to jail?"

"um...someone cut in line ahead of me and I hurt/killed them."

just something to think about.


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## Sin (May 12, 2005)

I was only suggesting that you did use more tact....Don't sweat the small stuff man, it only causes more trouble......Honestly do you want to get hurt or go to jail over someone cutting you in line......I think not....just think about it.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 13, 2005)

Ender said:
			
		

> "Daddy, why are you going to jail?"
> 
> "um...someone cut in line ahead of me and I hurt/killed them."
> 
> just something to think about.


It wouldn't be like that it would be "Daddy, why are you going to court?" 

"um....someone cut in line, I told them that was rude, they pulled out a knife/gun and I hurt/killed them." 

Show me where it was suggested hurting/killing someone for cutting in line. What they decide to bring it to is their business, but I refuse to keep my mouth shut out of FEAR of how someone is going to respond. The initially incident provoked the initial response, pointing out the rude behavior of the person. What happens after that is a seperate incident. I still have the right to defend myself against their aggressive action. Just because I DARED to point out rude behavior, in no way makes my right to self-defense null and void. The suggestion that it does sounds kind of grannyesque.  If they keep it civil and verbal (See also: legal) i'll keep the dialogue civil and verbal.  If they attack me, i'll respond appropriately.  Isn't America great?


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## Rich Parsons (May 14, 2005)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> *Making Friends In My New Neighborhood: So Whos the ******* Here?*
> 
> This is a funny story, but it applies to self-defense. I debated putting this in the locker room, but it brings up the question of where is the line drawn between appropriate assertiveness and aggressiveness that is not conducive of good self-defense.
> 
> ...




Paul,

I have to ask you a question.  This is about rude behaviour and letting people know about it. 

Everytime I visit a certain establishment and get this certain waitress, I never get a lemon in my water. Others who do not ask at other tables get it. Others at my table who order Oberon (* Local Beer *) with an orange wedge, standard, I cannot get one even if I ask. 

Yet I am expected to tip, or look like the jerk. If I call her on her attitude, then those I am with who know her might feel uncomfortable or not get their god service in the future. So what do I do? Well last night I had it. After being told there were no oranges, and not getting a lemon yet again for the second time that night. I order a glass of water and a beer together, and I expect to tip for both, but, with horrible service, . . ., .  So after waiting a reasonable amount of time, for her to bring bakc the lemon I aksed for, I decided to head to the bar and get my own. She cut me off at the station and grabbed an orange slice put it into a glass, and handed it to me. She said," They must have just cut more oranges", afraid I had caught her in a lie.  I stated, "This is fine, but I want my lemon." Her: " It thought you wanted that for your beer?", Me: "I do but, I aslo want my lemon. " She grabbed one and handed to me, and I left without saying anything. I always say thank you, but not this time.  She ended up, charging me tax for the beer, (* not charges before or after at anytime *), and then she made me change and made a mistake in my favor. I always inform people of this type of error. This time I just left the $1 and some change on the table for the tip. The $1 was her mistake. 

So,  why am I wrong to want to get service, and when I do not get it repeatedly, to educate the person on what is the problem.  She was all friendly and in my face when I went to the bar to get it myself, yet nothing the rest of the night and nothing before. 

Bad manners, no respect? or just poor performance constantly rewarded, and so not it is not only allowed, but is expected. 
 :idunno:


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## Cruentus (May 15, 2005)

First of all to let everyone know the humor that I see behind Rich's response, I go to the bar with Rich all the time. Out of all of my friends, he is the most particular about what he wants, and gets the most annoyed with **** ups out of most everyone else at the table, yet for some reason, he gets the crappiest service. It doesn't seem to matter if the waitress doesn't know that he is particular or not. It's sad, sick humor. Poor Rich!

Rich,

I would say that how to deal with a waitress that is at a place where we frequent is a much tougher decision, because it is a place that we all frequent. If you call her out on it and piss her off over lemons (and you are the only person at the table who it particular about that, usually) then it could ruin the service that everyone else is getting. If you tell a manager, that will probably piss her off more so then if you were to confront her yourself. If you just don't tip her without explaination, then you are seen as a shlub who doesn't leave good tips, which effects the service for everyone. So yes, I totally see your dilemma. Now...which waitress at B's bar is it this time? :rofl: (I totally know the place, and I can guess who your talking about).

Here is a solution you should try. I think that if there is something that you are really particular about, like lemons in your beer and water, then on your first order, say so. Then ask for a bunch. Say, "Just so you know, I really like lemons. Could you bring me a small bowl or glass of lemon slices so I don't have to ask you for them all night?" Also, consider asking for a pitcher of water and a glass with your beer, so you don't look like a deuch ordering water by the glass for the whole night. Dude, you KNOW that you drink about 4 glasses of water for every beer you order, so might-as-well. 

So, now your doing everything you can to try to make her life easier. So, if she does what you ask, make sure you tip her for it. If she is still not doing what you ask, then as a last resort calling her out on it is appropriate. Of course, discuss it with the table first. Because if you call her out, then we all need to be prepared to boycott that place for a while if she or management doesn't comply.

Anyways, I never put that much thought into it because I don't drink that water stuff....and what the hell is a lemon? Another shot please.... :ultracool 

Maybe we'll try that and see how it goes?

Paul


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## Cruentus (May 15, 2005)

Rich,

Another thing: I think you were asking me where the blame lies as well?

I'd say it is the waitresses fault, not yours.  If she didn't have her head up her ***, she'd recognize what you order every friggin time we are there, and she'd think to bring you a bowl of lemon slices so she doesn't have to deal with it the rest of the night. However, people are stupid a lot. You cannot rely on others to be intelligent when it comes to getting what you want. So even though it is her fault, you still need to make it as painfully simple for her as possible to service you if you ever want to be happy with the service.

And riddle me this, Parsons, why is it that you seem to never get your lemons when everyone else around us does? This happends all the time, and I have yet to figure this one out. Don't these waitresses realize that you will, in fact, crush their heads and wear their skin as a coat on your next serial head crushing spree? Man...someone should warn these people....


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## Adept (May 15, 2005)

There is a whole world of difference between assertive and aggresive, and it is important for everyone, not just martial artists, to learn the difference. No one should be passive. It leads to victimisation more often than it avoids conflicts. Assertiveness will prevent an attack, aggresiveness will provoke one.

 I think Marc Macyoung said it best - http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/assertiveness.html


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## sgtmac_46 (May 15, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> There is a whole world of difference between assertive and aggresive, and it is important for everyone, not just martial artists, to learn the difference. No one should be passive. It leads to victimisation more often than it avoids conflicts. Assertiveness will prevent an attack, aggresiveness will provoke one.
> 
> I think Marc Macyoung said it best - http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/assertiveness.html


Of course.  Assertiveness wards off predatory aggression.  Aggressiveness sometimes provokes defensive aggression.


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## 47MartialMan (May 17, 2005)

First of all, there is going to be rude people out there.

I have, on many ocassions, just pulled up to a open pump-or I thought was opened. In other words, I was the other guy.

People in a gas stations, do not always appear to be waiting for gas at a PARTICULAR pump. A gas line is not like a store line.

Perhaps you should have had your car ready to go instead of talking on the phone. Which I may add, is against policy at most pumps.

These cell phone/car drivers, which I am one at times, need to be cognizant.

Being "armed to the teeth" will not matter if the opponent got the jump on you. Which is a bad idea to approach someones' vehicle and yelling at them. Or plain yelling at someone.

I have seen and read in the news, people getting shot and victim of violent acts just because they decide to be bold and stand up.

In my old environment, you would've gotton shot-easily. Or you would have been followed and later "tagged".

Now, this is by no means to rag upon anyone who shall stand up for what they believe is right.

But, as advanced martial artists, a level of control is in order.

I have many incidents in my distant past of many physical conflicts resulting from yelling matches.

Assertiveness doesn't have to involve profanity and yelling.

And too much of it can turn into agressiveness.

Am I saying to be passive? Am I saying that rude or bad behavior should be tolerated and un-checked?

No to both.

One of the things that freaked out two of my students when we were in a public place and up against others ready to fight-my calmness and almost non-verbal preparation.

Fight for what is right, but is it right to let subtle exchanges esculate into more violent ones?

I rarely get into such confrontations-verbal and physical.

Will the "pump-jumper" learn. Maybe. Or maybe he will be prepared to shot the next guy ready to come to his vehicle yelling. Maybe not if he has the same attitude instilled.






​


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## silatman (Jun 13, 2005)

Just started a thread for this circumstance, this guy sounds to me like he was/is a complete arsehole.
Did you really believe that he didnt see a line, give me a break this bloke didnt see anyone who he thought was going to confront him.
Having a bad week, not sleeping are not reasons to behave like he is the only person on the planet.
I'm glad to hear this didn't get to a physical confrontation but if it did this guy was only going to get what he deserved and probably deserved from previous days, as it sounds like he thought he was big enough to intimidate people into doing what ever he wanted when ever he wanted.
Chalk up one for the good guys.


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## KenpoEMT (Jul 31, 2005)

Sometimes you gotta fight fire with fire...sometimes.


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## andy (Jul 31, 2005)

This will sound vague as ****
but I think the smartest thing you did was keep the experiance to ruminate on it. I probably would have lost my temper alot quicker but you still are tearing the moment down and rethinking it. To me that means you are still learning which also means you maybe have mastered yourself more then you may first have realised.

you walked away without hurting him, talked him down, talked yourself down, everybody applauds, Geez- I wish I could do that.


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## Jonathan Randall (Aug 5, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> But you made a bad choice. It's a bad choice particularly for you because you as a skilled fighter and martial-artist *chose* to get upset over the whole thing and get confrontational. The old adage goes violence begets violence. Letting someone know that they've upset you is one thing. Letting someone know what you *think* of them because they upset you is another. I don't mean to preach about what I think consitutes a martial artist but it is within my sphere of belief and experience that a _true_ martial artist would not have reacted nor use the tools to spark a confrontation.


Perhaps not, but a true human very well may. I'd have slammed Tulisan if I hadn't just been in a similiar situation the other day. True, I did not react quite as belligerently, but I didn't walk away as quickly as I should have, either.

It's hard to deal with jerks, particularly if you've encountered several in a row during a given day. Thanks, Tulisan for posting this and admitting to critiques of your own behavior.

MACaver, your points are great, too. Life is hard and even the best among us are imperfect creatures but, like you wrote, we must recognize the consequences of "throwing down".

Valerian root, anyone?


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 9, 2005)

Whenever I get confronted with somebody who is more interested in letting him/herself be heard than accomplishing anything, I just let them talk themselves out. Once that's done, then I try to help them learn a lesson my teacher taught me long ago that basically can be summed up as, "Listen without defending, speak without offending." Which in essence means, don't react to words defensively until you're sure of the context they are meant in. Don't jump to conclusions before understanding the situation and where the other person is coming from. (Except if the other person is obviously looking for a fight. Not a whole lot you can do there except defend yourself.) Speaking without offending means to find ways to say what you need to say without offending the other person...because someone who is offended will go on the defensive and won't REALLY listen to what you're saying. Anywho, my 2 cents, take them for what they are .


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