# Gun Disarming



## jayyo (Jan 29, 2004)

Well i guess this is the best place to ask this question!

Out of the groups or people out there teaching gun disarms, who would you  recommended?   

Thanks
Jayyo


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## theletch1 (Jan 29, 2004)

Robert B. MacEwen in New York.  Teaches Nihon Goshin Aikido and instructs the FBI in gun defense and disarms.  I've done a seminar with him and he is very good at what he does.  His hand speed is amazing.


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## Black Bear (Jan 29, 2004)

On the whole, TRS publishes trash, but they have a good gun strip series. The only goofy thing about them is that they hold their hands way out HERE *mimes it* instead of as close to the gun as possible while maintaining a nonviolent, feigning-fear posture. 

Tony Blauer is always good for street but only teaches gun defense to LEO. 

Kelly McCann (aka Jim Grover) has some good stuff too.


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## jayyo (Jan 29, 2004)

What about Krav maga, haganah, systema, etc...?


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## Black Bear (Jan 29, 2004)

Krav maga differs widely in quality from one place to another. I'm thinking that if you're in the US it might not be the greatest. Some people were complaining that in their "line of fire" video series the disarms brought the user through the line of fire. I didn't remember any such thing, but it was a very long time since I saw them. 

I don't know Haganah. 

Systema refers to a variety of Russian MA. Probably you're thinking of Systema Ryabko as taught by Vlad Vasiliev and his students. I trained with Vlad briefly. Great man. It's wonderful, funky fun stuff, and Vlad can do it, but I don't fully trust it. It's also harder to acquire for most martial artists than other gun defense tactics. Very subtle. 

I would certainly not train Systema from a video. It has a very unique "felt sense" that must be acquired firsthand. If you have a school in your area, lucky you. I'd at least check it out.


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## kenpo12 (Jan 29, 2004)

I like most of what LEO teach.  They're all pretty simple and effective.  They vary a littlef rom department to department but most are very similar.


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## Black Bear (Jan 29, 2004)

Yeah but they don't usually teach to civilians. Not around here anyway. 

Gun is not my thing, because they're not plentiful here so I haven't delved as deeply into it as perhaps I should now. But in general respects, LEO DT training is surprisingly varied. Anything from really classical karate/jujitsu, to PPCT, to Blauer Tactical, to ISR Matrix. 

I'm only knowledgeable about the tactics used in my jurisdiction, but cops from here and there in the US tell me that the quality of their training isn't that great.


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## psi_radar (Jan 30, 2004)

Systema's weapons disarms/defenses are light years ahead of the other systems I've seen. I've trained minutely in Systema, less than 10 hours, but I'd be tempted to use its gun and knife defenses over Kenpo's, in which I've devoted hundreds of hours. Considering it now, I think I'd only attempt two of Kenpo's gun techniques, Broken Rod and Twisted Rod.

Black Bear's right, you can't really absorb Systema from video, you really need to learn first hand from a certified instructor or it'll be really hard to "get." Great stuff.


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## Black Bear (Feb 1, 2004)

Yeah, when you watch Systema on video it looks fake. When you work it firsthand, you realize it is really effective, but I still am not their number one fan. Maybe if I'd trained in it more extensively I'd be a believer, I'm just telling you what I think.


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## tmanifold (Feb 2, 2004)

The Modern Defendo guys have some good stuff. 

Tony


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## JAMJTX (Feb 1, 2005)

I learned some nice techniques from Darrell Craig.  Also, in Chicago there is a Kyokushin teacher, Greg Johnson, I picked up a few things from him.
I suspect the Nihon Goshin Aikido techniques are also pretty good.
I have to say, the Krav Maga techniques I have seen will get you shot for sure.


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## Gray Phoenix (Feb 1, 2005)

I'm going to have to vote for my own Professor in this case. Mushin Ryu Jujitsu has several Southern California law enforcment agencies represented in it's ranks. We are very physics oriented with tried and true methods that have worked on the streets.


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## Cruentus (Feb 1, 2005)

Here is an interesting question for everyone:

How many documented cases are there of a gun disarm actually working?

Paul


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## dearnis.com (Feb 1, 2005)

lots.....um...every Steven Segal movie!!!

Seriously, I would love to see some numbers as well.

On that note, there are some decent strips, etc. floating around out there, but I would NOT trust anything taught be someone who is not also a shooter with a decent understanding of how guns work, how they are employed, and a decent understanding of weapon retention.  But that's just me.


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## still learning (Feb 1, 2005)

Hello, Good question about " How many disarming are they and have they work?" Alot of martial art schools teach for disarming of weapons, including guns. In the real world, the attack by a gun will never be the same as we practice it, the surprise of it,plus the adrenline factor. We must trust our instincts to react or not to react and give them what they want. 

 Three choices if you decide to react, to disarm to save your life and others, be shot and get wounded,or DIE from gun shot trying to disarm.

 Trust your instinct about this, if you fill it is best not to react and give them what you want, at least you still get three choices, one they will let you go and live, two still shoot you and get wounded, last get killed. 

 Gun disarming must be practice often for it to work. keep it sample. Now what after you disarm? Are you prepare for the next step after taking the gun away? .....so many things to be aware of.......will it end?......Aloha


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## Cruentus (Feb 1, 2005)

Good points Chad and still learning.

I take gun disarms with the same consideration as knife disarms: to attempt a disarm with these is suicidal. So, you need to consider yourself a dead man already in order to attempt such a feat.

That said, there are times to consider where you may be basically a dead man no matter what you do because your attacker is going to kill you or your loved ones regardless of your response. This situation, added with the unavailability of escaping, pulling your weapon, or picking up a weapon of opportunity as an option, must be the case for one to attempt such a feat.

I teach empty hand vs. knife or gun, but I teach them as a set of tactical responses rather then just doing a series of disarming techniques. This is simply because disarming techniques by themselves will most likely fail. Attempting to disarm the gun is a part of the tactical responses that I teach. However, I do this with the understanding and communication to my clients that there not only is no garauntee that a gun disarm will work, but that there is no real recorded evidence that I can find where a gun disarming "technique" by itself has been successfully deployed by a single empty-handed defender. So there really isn't even any anecdotal evidence to draw from on this, let alone enough information to come up with statistics. So all we can do is test our responses in as realistic of a fashion as we can, and hope that we get a second chance at life if they are ever needed.

Now, that said, I am sure there must be evidence out there of people who have lost control over their firearms to an empty handed person. I am sure there are cops who have lost gun retention to a criminal, for example. But the situations I hear of don't involve well executed "disarming techniques" per say.

I'll end with a story to illustrate my point. Now, because I don't like to speak from experience because I don't condone violence, lets just say that I know of a situation. A prearranged fight was happening involving a bunch of teens. One of the fighters was involved with young drug dealer type thugs and drop outs. Two of these people were strapped with pistols. The fight wasn't going well for the "thug" fighter, so one of his strapped buddies decided he was going to end it himself. So he drew his unholstered pistol from the inside of his waistband. A bystander noticed this and immediately reacted by trapping and grabbing the gun with his left hand, and punching the gun wielder in the face. The gun wielder was completely taken by surprise, and lost retention on the gun as he dropped to the ground.

This illustrates what I am saying. I know that people lose gun retention all the time, but it usually isn't from a well executed disarm. It usually occurs when the gun wielder is caught by surprise, or caught in a grappling situation, and truama is caused to the gun wielder (usually strikes to the face area) enough to cause him to lose retention.

But, I would still like to see some sort of statistic even on these situations.

Paul


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## dearnis.com (Feb 2, 2005)

What follows refers to training scenarios in controlled environments; add salt as you like.
I have had the opportunity to play "bad guy" in various scenarios, and I will tell you that sloppy gun handling and poor retention training will allow you to gain control of an adversary's weapon under the right conditions.  Now, note that I said control, not full disarm.  Could full disarms have followed?  Absolutely, but I chose not to add distraction strikes and risk breaking fingers (others, not my own).


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## Jerry (Feb 10, 2005)

Touching on a few older posts (I've been out for a week riding Mardi Gras with the Mobile,AL mounted police). 

Systema is a good art. If there are two issues I have with the material, it's the ground-work, and weapon disarms; both for the same reason... too "works perfectly or not at all".



> I take gun disarms with the same consideration as knife disarms: to attempt a disarm with these is suicidal. So, you need to consider yourself a dead man already in order to attempt such a feat.


 Honestly, I take most fights this way, I'd kind-of assumed it's unspoken that you should only fight a weapon when the other option is getting killed standing there.


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## Marcus Buonfiglio (Feb 10, 2005)

Out of the groups or people out there teaching gun disarms, who would you  recommended?   

Thanks
Jayyo[/QUOTE]

There is a gentleman by the name of Michael Pick who is the senior teaching Black Belt and head of the Universal Kenpo Federation. He is also the primary combatives instructor for US Army Special Forces 10th Group, 101st Airborne Div. out of Ft Carson CO. His gun and rifle removal techniques are spot on. He has disarmed and controlled in actual confrontations and the men he teaches have done the same. Although he is best known for his proficiency with the blade and for his technique against it (He was invited by and accepted the offer to be the 24th member of the Close Quarter Combat Assoc, founded by Col Rex Applegate) his gun work both defensively and offensively (he is a qualified SF shooting instructor, receiving his qualification with a perfect score) is exceptional. If you ever get the opportunity to train with this extraordinary man I highly recommend you take advantage of it.

Regards
Marcus Buonfiglio


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## AC_Pilot (Feb 10, 2005)

I think there's a place for gun disarm training so don't get me wrong but IMO if we CCW people would spend half the time working on our awareness and beating an attacker to the draw by acquiring our piece, breaking the retention strap, half drawing under the jacket, or drawing  and holding it out of sight for fast presentation, we would be a lot further along. Sure there could be a time when they surprise you but if you're paying attention it's not as likely. Use your radar to good effect. If in doubt, draw first. If you lack the sensitivity to know whether they are actually attacking then you'll have to wait and face a *drawn gun* _before_ you draw, putting you at distinct disadvantage.


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## msneen (Feb 10, 2005)

I used to work as a bodyguard back in the 90's. One night my client tried to shoot his attorney... through me. 

I stepped /pivoted to the outside of his drawing arm, let my left palm fall over the hammer, my right hand under the barrel in front of the trigger guard. Then I did the classic "inside wrist lock" takeaway. 

As the gun started to come out, he pulled the trigger and I felt full hammer pressure against my palm. Had to have one of my partners help me get it out of my hands safely.

In retrospect, I made a really big mistake. I should have waited until the gun was empty to take it away. The attorney turned out to have major ethical problems. 

Regards,

Mike Sneen


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## Jerry (Feb 15, 2005)

> Use your radar to good effect. If in doubt, draw first.


 Decent self-defense idea... but illegal in most areas.


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## Gray Phoenix (Feb 17, 2005)

In all honesty, if someone has a gun on you, your about to die. Only in a very rare instance would you have the opportunity and the proper body positioning to attempt a disarming move. Even then, I would need to feel like there is no chance of me or anyone else walking away with out some counter to the gun.


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## rmclain (Feb 17, 2005)

This story of pistol defense was originally published in Black Belt Magazine.  This event happened on November 1, 2001 to a green belt(6th gup) student of mine.  Students learn close-range handgun defense at yellow belt (7th & 8th Gup).  The entire event was caught on the store's video cameras.  My student was honored for heroism by the Arlington P.D.

Robert McLain

www.defendu.com/newsletterjune2004.htm


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## Cruentus (Feb 17, 2005)

rmclain said:
			
		

> This story of pistol defense was originally published in Black Belt Magazine.  This event happened on November 1, 2001 to a green belt(6th gup) student of mine.  Students learn close-range handgun defense at yellow belt (7th & 8th Gup).  The entire event was caught on the store's video cameras.  My student was honored for heroism by the Arlington P.D.
> 
> Robert McLain
> 
> www.defendu.com/newsletterjune2004.htm



Wonderful Job. Congrats to your student!  For learning purposes, I would like to see the tape. Have you considered putting the video on your site?

Paul


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## Tgace (Feb 17, 2005)

Gun Disarms? Learn them, practice them and God help you if you actually need them. They are for "DO or DIE" situations. Run first if possible. If you have to do it, go all out and dont stop until you win or you die. Just because you get shot dosent mean you are dead...keep going!


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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2005)

IMO many of the "cops shot with their own guns" stories are either. a. guns in the holster and the BG takes it. OR b. the cop is supprised and the gun is "snatched" from his hand or c.Guns is in the cops hands, BG goes for it and the Cop tries to fight without shooting the BG because the BG is unarmed, cops afraid of lawsuits, shooting an unarmed BG etc...IMO any BG coming at me when my gun is out is intending to kill me.


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## msneen (Feb 18, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> IMO many of the "cops shot with their own guns" stories are either. a. guns in the holster and the BG takes it. OR b. the cop is supprised and the gun is "snatched" from his hand or c.Guns is in the cops hands, BG goes for it and the Cop tries to fight without shooting the BG because the BG is unarmed, cops afraid of lawsuits, shooting an unarmed BG etc...IMO any BG coming at me when my gun is out is intending to kill me.


In reality, that is the case, but I can understand the hesitation.  Lawyers have months to analyze what happens in a couple seconds and make it look like something else.

Regards,

Mike


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## Tgace (Feb 18, 2005)

Aint it the truth?


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## msneen (Feb 18, 2005)

One of the other things we work on quite a bit in our training group is disabling and re-enabling the weapon(semi-auto) during take-aways/ retention.  Mainly firing it with the slide blocked so the spent casing doesn't eject and the slide has to be cycled before it will fire again.


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