# How would you defend against a hook?



## ella_guru (Oct 20, 2010)

Title pretty much says it all. I've heard people say to tan the inside of the arm but in my experience you'd have to be MUCH faster than the opponent.

So , not that there is a RIGHT answer, I'm curious how you would "ideally" deal with a hook style punch.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 20, 2010)

Duck!


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## Nabakatsu (Oct 20, 2010)

In my lineage we would do somewhat of a chum kiu step while also executing an outside fook sau, which is pretty much like a tan sau except your palm is facing downwards, as we step we will use our momentum and adduction in conjection with turning the outside fook sau into a semi lap sau to full fledged lap sau depending on the energy we receive.


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## wtxs (Oct 20, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Duck!



:duh::duh::duh::lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## mook jong man (Oct 20, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> Title pretty much says it all. I've heard people say to tan the inside of the arm but in my experience you'd have to be MUCH faster than the opponent.
> 
> So , not that there is a RIGHT answer, I'm curious how you would "ideally" deal with a hook style punch.


 
Your primary defence will be your centreline punch , ie punching as soon as you see him move, attack , attack , attack.
Your secondary defence will be your Tan Sau.

Its not my preference but it is an ok technique used in the right circumstances , I think it works best against a rather committed type of circular strike .

If we just forget the fact for a moment that I am going to punch as soon as he moves , that will take a lot of impetus out of his strike .

From the persective of dealing with his force , the number one thing that people do wrong is that they don't position themselves properly in relation to the attacking force.

You have to orientate your body and Tan Sau so that it is facing the direction , that the force is coming from , if you fail to do this the hook is just going to act like a big parry , knock your arm down and cave your head in.

Present the strongest structure you can against the incoming force.

At short range you may use your pivot to orientate yourself properly , and at longer range we use a type of footwork in our lineage called "Planing".

Planing is similar to a car that has aquaplaned on a wet road , even though the direction of the car is forward , the position of the car itself is angled.

Basically its just stepping so that one hip is thrown forward so that the body finishes up at an angle instead of square on.

I would say the big pro of the technique is the power that can be generated in your strike from the pivot or the "planing footwork".
The con would be that you are not squared up to your attacker , which is my preference .

We actually prefer to use the Tan Sau against a back hand or back fist type of strike , for a hook we prefer to use what we call a Dai Sau.

Probably easiest way to picture it would be to say , raise your Fook Sau till the wrist is level with the top of your head.

Now straighten your hand so it looks like a salute , move the wrist off the centreline and put your fingertips on the centreline.

Then move the elbow out a bit , and if we face a mirror it should look like our head is in one side of a triangle.
So from the guard you raise the Dai Sau up with a punch from your other hand of course.

As the punch comes in raise your whole arm from the elbow using a shearing deflection on the inside of his arm with your forearm , this redirects his punch up and away from your head.

If the force is very circular we can dissipate a lot of that force by raising the Dai Sau and allowing it to roll a little like a Bong Sau.

The big plus of this technique is that structurally it is very strong because the bone of our upper arm from shoulder to the elbow is facing the direction that his force is coming from.

Also what some time happens is that he will actually drive the inside of his forearm into the point of your elbow , effectively destroying his own limb.

But the biggest selling point is that it is a more economical movement in the sense that you can move in square on and be ready for anything coming from his other hand .


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## WC_lun (Oct 20, 2010)

bil da technique works well if you step toward the flank on the side of the hook.  It isolates the arm from the person's body, robbing them of power, and if the da part doesn't finish them, you are in a great position to chum kui immediately.


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## BloodMoney (Oct 20, 2010)

As usual, Mook Jung is on the money 

I personally would only use Dai Sau (as in 4 Corners) as its specifically made to counter that exact attack. Given the 3d circular movement of Dai it is possible to counter even the strongest running hook/haymaker. I got some of the biggest boys in the club to demonstrate this the other night by trying to hook me in the head as hard as they could. Even with forarm pads it only took each of them one hit to decide they didnt want to play that game. 

Tan Sau does work, but I dont like it in this situation. Pak Sau to the bicep works, with simultaneous punch but you tend to cross your hands too much for my liking.

Dai Sau all the way


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## geezer (Oct 20, 2010)

Coming from an offshoot of the _WT system_, we don't have "dai sau". We do have a technique we call fook-sau... not the hook-handed centerline fook-sau of SNT, but another kind of fook-sau technique formed like the turning stance tan-sau of Chum-Kiu, except with the wrist straight and the palm down, and usually held a little higher and extended a bit further... In other words, something that both sounds a lot like and is applied a lot like "dai-sau". Anyway, that kind of "dai" or "fook" or whatever you call it together with a simultaneously delivered hard straight punch is my best bet against a long "haymaker" type hook. 

A tight, close-range boxer's hook is a lot more dangerous, since you don't see it coming. Those you gotta stick to and treat almost like an elbow...or better, take the offense with your straight punching and don't give your opponent a chance to use them.

...Or you can kick 'em in the knee.


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## ella_guru (Oct 20, 2010)

Thanks a lot mook! And others, this is all very helpful. It's just most of the times when I see this question brought up (even some of the people in my club!) they show me a "hook" which is  some big drunken swinging baffoonish movement. Well if that's how everyone punched I wouldn't bother worrying much about self defense.

Some really nice ideas coming and I can see this is obviously a difficult punch to deal with..

This Dai Sau though, does anyone have video or something? I've never heard this term thrown around my group.. Lineages aside, I'm interested! : )


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> Thanks a lot mook! And others, this is all very helpful. It's just most of the times when I see this question brought up (even some of the people in my club!) they show me a "hook" which is some big drunken swinging baffoonish movement. Well if that's how everyone punched I wouldn't bother worrying much about self defense.
> 
> Some really nice ideas coming and I can see this is obviously a difficult punch to deal with..
> 
> This Dai Sau though, does anyone have video or something? I've never heard this term thrown around my group.. Lineages aside, I'm interested! : )


 
From what I understand it came in to being when my late Sifu Jim Fung moved to Australia and had trouble dealing with boxers hook punches.

So he told Sigung Tsui about it and he came up with the Dai Sau.
But I'm sure other people must have come up with something like it , its pretty simple when you think about , all we are doing is mirroring the position of the opponents  elbow.

In this video here the young lady after jamming the attempted kick does two separate Dai Sau and punch to defend against two consecutive hook punches at exactly 1:30.

The video quality is not too good and the camera work is shakey but it will give you a basic idea.


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## cwk (Oct 21, 2010)

I tend to grab the back of my head with my hand on the same side as the punch is coming from. making sure my ear area is covered by my forearm,jaw covered by my upper arm and my chin covered by my elbow.
then I just step in a little thus making the hook slide harmlessly of my arm and elbow ( this can also be done with a tiu sao coming back towards your ear but it takes more skill in the timing), then pivot as your step lands and do a vertical panther fist (chap choi) or a pak/ wu in to the shoulder joint of the opponents punching arm.


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## hpclub1000 (Oct 21, 2010)

Quite a few people have focussed upon what technique and structure is best applied against a hook. My sifu explained to me that circular techniques such as hooks, haymakers, roundhouse kicks have a life cycle. And with most life cycles the start of the life cycle of the punch or kick there isn't alot of power genertated. At the end of the life cycle, the technique its far more powerful. 

So effectively it's best to intercept the punch or kick when its young in its life cycle and close to its source of power, which is likely to be the upper arm on the punch or, for a roundhouse, the upper thigh near the hip.


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2010)

hpclub1000 said:


> Quite a few people have focussed upon what technique and structure is best applied against a hook. My sifu explained to me that circular techniques such as hooks, haymakers, roundhouse kicks have a life cycle. And with most life cycles the start of the life cycle of the punch or kick there isn't alot of power genertated. At the end of the life cycle, the technique its far more powerful.
> 
> So effectively it's best to intercept the punch or kick when its young in its life cycle and close to its source of power, which is likely to be the upper arm on the punch or, for a roundhouse, the upper thigh near the hip.


 
I got hit in the temple by one once and it floored me , for a few seconds there I felt like I was pretty close to the end of my life cycle.

But all kidding aside you are a 110% correct its best to counter these things before they have a chance to build up momentum.


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## vatesi (Oct 21, 2010)

In an ideal situation, a good smack to the bicep is the best course of action against a hook. Simple physics really, the further away from the pivot (the shoulder) the less turning effect. Also, it hurts like a ***** and it lets you get inside setting up a chain punch beatdown.

In my opinion, it's really hard to pull off in a real situation  the window of opportunity is very small for a tight hook, and you have to be able to get in range really fast for a long hook. If you can't jam the hook, there's no shame in covering up and taking the hit like a boxer before retaliating.


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## matsu (Oct 21, 2010)

*Your primary defence will be your centreline punch , ie punching as soon as you see him move, attack , attack , attack*.

sifu will always say why block if you can punch.
or otherwise and i believe we would use a laan sau in the same way as you guys describe dai sau with a punch as we step in to smother the distance and therefore the power of the incoming swinging punch.

but some very helpful posts here. thank you
matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 21, 2010)

There are a lot of different ways to defend against a hook and you have to really decide what suits you and your frame

A lot comes down to what kind of hook comes in
ie will it be a tight hook, a wide hook, a hook to your ribs, a hook to your face, etc

Generally, tan sao is a good technique to use, but you must think of your attack as your primarty defence. The tan sao is there just in case the hit still comes in

I find dip sao a very good defence to use for most outside gate strikes

I know someone on here said duck - that is the worst thing to do if you are a chunner or if you are in a streetfight
For that split second you have no good body mechanics to work off of and risk getting a knee in the head or subjected to a clinch

Easiest way is to move your body - it is a natural reaction (moving out of the way of a hit), and just needs taming

My advice is to practice getting (good) hooks fed into you by an opponent wearing 14 or 16 oz gloves. It soon gets you moving and reacting!


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 21, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> From what I understand it came in to being when my late Sifu Jim Fung moved to Australia and had trouble dealing with boxers hook punches.
> 
> So he told Sigung Tsui about it and he came up with the Dai Sau.
> But I'm sure other people must have come up with something like it , its pretty simple when you think about , all we are doing is mirroring the position of the opponents elbow.
> ...


 
The dai sao looks like what we call biu sao. For hooking punches to the head and neck, we train to use a biu da (biu sao in conjunction with a punch). And hooking punches to the ribs and solorplexus/stomach, we train using a gan da (gan sao in conjunction with a punch). 

For the gan da, you find the proper execution in the first set of Muk Yan Jong form, 6th motion, right after you step to the left side of the jong and do the tan sao wan jern.  It is done when sliding the right leg out and doing the gan sao to the lower jong arm and jop/tan sao to the upper jong left arm. A punch replaces the jop/tan sao hand position in the dummy form when applying this motion against a hook thrown to the ribs or stomach.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2010)

Im sorry I have tried and tried and tried to restrain myself but I can sit silently no longer.

Based on this question How would you defend against a hook?   

My very first thought was 

Hmmfighting a lot of pirates are you


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 21, 2010)

For fighting a pirate like that, I'd call on Peter Pan and Tinker Bell.


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## ella_guru (Oct 21, 2010)

Xueeeeee



>_<


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## WC_lun (Oct 21, 2010)

I've heard Hooks like that are deathly afraid of crocodiles


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## Vajramusti (Oct 21, 2010)

There is a who;e arsenal of possible motions for dealing with hooks--- but the key is proper timing. Lots of good chi sao can sharpen your timing.
 joy chaudhuri


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## wtxs (Oct 21, 2010)

vatesi said:


> In an ideal situation, a *good smack to the bicep *is the best course of action against a hook. Simple physics really, the further away from the pivot (the shoulder) the less turning effect. Also, it hurts like a ***** and it lets you get inside setting up a chain punch beatdown.



Food for though.

Attacking the joints, muscle and ligaments, fictional or not, in Ip Man 2 ... towards the later part of the fight, he was getting hammered by the muscle bounded boxer, he was told to attack the biceps when he gets inside.  When the round ended, the boxer was shown shaking his arms in pain and an disbelieve look on his face.


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## graychuan (Oct 21, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> The dai sao looks like what we call *biu sao.* For hooking *punches to the head and neck, we train to use a biu da (biu sao in conjunction with a punch)*. And* hooking punches to the ribs and solorplexus/stomach, we train using a gan da* (gan sao in conjunction with a punch).



Im RIIIIIIGHT with you! :ultracool:ultracool


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> _*The dai sao looks like what we call biu sao. For hooking punches to the head and neck, we train to use a biu da (biu sao in conjunction with a punch).*_ And hooking punches to the ribs and solorplexus/stomach, we train using a gan da (gan sao in conjunction with a punch).
> 
> For the gan da, you find the proper execution in the first set of Muk Yan Jong form, 6th motion, right after you step to the left side of the jong and do the tan sao wan jern. It is done when sliding the right leg out and doing the gan sao to the lower jong arm and jop/tan sao to the upper jong left arm. A punch replaces the jop/tan sao hand position in the dummy form when applying this motion against a hook thrown to the ribs or stomach.


 
It does look a little bit like a Biu sau , but the energy is different .
Whereas a Biu sau is going forward , a Dai sau goes straight up.


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## Domino (Oct 22, 2010)

ella_guru said:


> Title pretty much says it all. I've heard people say to tan the inside of the arm but in my experience you'd have to be MUCH faster than the opponent.
> 
> So , not that there is a RIGHT answer, I'm curious how you would "ideally" deal with a hook style punch.



Regularly use tan or high fook sau with a little turning, solid.


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## BloodMoney (Oct 23, 2010)

geezer said:


> we don't have "dai sau".



Well then your f***ed



Seriously though, Dai is SO important, its fast and easy, its circular movement means you can deflect really hard punches (trust me weve gone to some extreme measures to test this and it works) and you can simultaneously punch with the other hand. 

In fact if you get good you can just make the Dai a punch in itself, so essentially your punching them right where they were going to punch you, _whilst_ stopping their punch, and still leaving your other hand free. (Now if you were to punch with that free hand, and maybe a little mid heel kick...why youd be stopping your opponents punch, punching them _twice_ and kicking them all in one fairly easy movement  )

Dai Sau is imperative if fighting a modern western boxer or MMA fighter. Ive found a lot of traditional Chinese masters had very little exposure (especially physically) to aggressive striking arts from Europe etc, and as such might be a little bit guilty of underestimating how tricky it can be to deal with them. Seeing as Chun was supposed to be an "art to defeat all arts" I think it needs to grow with the times. Dai Sau is a good example of just that.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 23, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> It does look a little bit like a Biu sau , but the energy is different .
> Whereas a Biu sau is going forward , a Dai sau goes straight up.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
An opinion:Biu in the biu gee form actually comes up from underneatha motion- not just forward. I can show stoppinga hook with the right biu motion, with a kau sao motion or a reverse jut sao motion.You can also step out of the way of the hook or step in past the hook's power point. It's nota matter of technique but of timing which can include appropriate and subtle footwork.I have my better students practice against hooks often.A good hook can be a dangerous thing.I don't underestimate hooks.

Joy Chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Oct 24, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> *An opinion:Biu in the biu gee form actually comes up from underneatha motion- not just forward.* I can show stoppinga hook with the right biu motion, with a kau sao motion or a reverse jut sao motion.You can also step out of the way of the hook or step in past the hook's power point. It's nota matter of technique but of timing which can include appropriate and subtle footwork.I have my better students practice against hooks often.A good hook can be a dangerous thing.I don't underestimate hooks.
> 
> Joy Chaudhuri


 
Yeah it does but I didn't want to get too pedantic about it .
It comes from underneath and sort of goes forward and up bouncing the incoming strike out of the way.

In my opinion Biu sau is better suited to a more direct type of strike coming in off the center line , not a very tight hook .

I believe a Dai sau is better suited against a tight hook because it is reflecting the position of the opponents elbow and presents a very powerful structure to force coming in from the side.


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## Poor Uke (Oct 24, 2010)

Turning biu and punch


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## zepedawingchun (Oct 25, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> An opinion:Biu in the biu gee form actually comes up from underneatha motion- not just forward. I can show stoppinga hook with the right biu motion, with a kau sao motion or a reverse jut sao motion. . . . . It's nota matter of technique but of timing which can include appropriate and subtle footwork.Joy Chaudhuri


 
Yes, a biu jee motion does, but a biu sao can start from the hand being anywhere, just like the Wing Chun punch.  To be used against a hook, there is always a small twisting motion of the hand and wrist, going forward, along with a turning or shifting (torqueing) of the hips or body.  It is all about the timing.


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## wtxs (Oct 25, 2010)

Poor Uke said:


> Turning biu and punch



Simple and easy, what fun is that? :wink1::wink1::wink1:


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## Vajramusti (Oct 25, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Yes, a biu jee motion does, but a biu sao can start from the hand being anywhere, just like the Wing Chun punch.  To be used against a hook, there is always a small twisting motion of the hand and wrist, going forward, along with a turning or shifting (torqueing) of the hips or body.  It is all about the timing.


----------------------------------------------------
True

joy chaudhuri


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## BloodMoney (Oct 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> in my opinion biu sau is better suited to a more direct type of strike coming in off the center line , not a very tight hook .
> 
> I believe a dai sau is better suited against a tight hook because it is reflecting the position of the opponents elbow and presents a very powerful structure to force coming in from the side.



+1


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## Domino (Dec 21, 2010)

Nabakatsu said:


> In my lineage we would do somewhat of a chum kiu step while also executing an outside fook sau, which is pretty much like a tan sau except your palm is facing downwards, as we step we will use our momentum and adduction in conjection with turning the outside fook sau into a semi lap sau to full fledged lap sau depending on the energy we receive.



Very strong structure


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## aichis (Dec 25, 2010)

is Wu-sau ok for hooks.?
it gives painful for the forearm of the enemies.


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## mook jong man (Dec 25, 2010)

aichis said:


> is Wu-sau ok for hooks.?
> it gives painful for the forearm of the enemies.


 
It would rather depend on what type of an arc the punch is coming in at , and how impeccable your timing is in pivoting to get your body mass behind your deflection.


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## aichis (Dec 25, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> It would rather depend on what type of an arc the punch is coming in at , and how impeccable your timing is in pivoting to get your body mass behind your deflection.



Did you mean, if the angle of arc (of the punch) is too high, in other words, the bending is high, it is a little bit hard too use wu-sau, is it right?

Maybe it depends on timing, but I seem to look at Wu-sau is more effective to use against hooks than Tan sau.Tan sau, you must be lightning fast and strong to push hooks punch. Am I right?


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## mook jong man (Dec 25, 2010)

aichis said:


> Did you mean, if the angle of arc (of the punch) is too high, in other words, the bending is high, it is a little bit hard too use wu-sau, is it right?
> 
> Maybe it depends on timing, but I seem to look at Wu-sau is more effective to use against hooks than Tan sau.Tan sau, you must be lightning fast and strong to push hooks punch. Am I right?


 
Yes I mean the angle of the arm , if the hook is a very tight hook , then there is a chance that the hook maybe able to sneek around your Wu- Sau  , but this is assuming that you have caught it very late and haven't been able to get your own counter punch out.

As for the Tan sau I wouldn't advocate it except maybe in the case of a wildly telegraphed over committed haymaker.
From the pivoted position if your counter strike hasn't had the desired effect you are very vulnerable to a strike from his other hand.

I prefer to move straight in and keep square on against a front on attacker so that I have equal use of both arms and legs and don't have to open the defensive area up as much.

In my opinion if we are going to use the Tan Sau with a pivot it is better off used against something like a spinning backfist , at least from that position the opponent has to spin his whole body back around in order to hit with the other hand.


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## aichis (Dec 26, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Yes I mean the angle of the arm , if the hook is a very tight hook , then there is a chance that the hook maybe able to sneek around your Wu- Sau  , but this is assuming that you have caught it very late and haven't been able to get your own counter punch out.
> 
> As for the Tan sau I wouldn't advocate it except maybe in the case of a wildly telegraphed over committed haymaker.
> From the pivoted position if your counter strike hasn't had the desired effect you are very vulnerable to a strike from his other hand.
> ...



What about high elbow fook sau?
the elbow is placed same as shoulder height and strike the opponent forearm while the hooker is punching.
but this must be very accurate right?In case ur elbow dont hit correctly you'll get hit..
am i right?

about the spinning backfist, 
maybe first Pak sau, then Lap sau, then Punch him at his rib okay?


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## Vajramusti (Dec 26, 2010)

Hooks vary with individuals and an individual can use many different kinds of hooks with varying trajectories and timing. Try not to depend on memorized techniques.
Also- ask your sifu? A good sifu is invaluable.

joy chaudhuri


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## chain punch (Dec 28, 2010)

Go into his centre
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vOfON9-tbE


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## zepedawingchun (Dec 29, 2010)

chain punch said:


> Go into his centre


 
The left hand is executing a biu sau, the right hand is da. So we call it biu da. And as is stated, you face the direction of the hook, walk forwards and execute the hand positions. One other thing, don't forget to have your hip line (power) lined up with the aggressors centerline as your da hits your opponent.


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## Beginner's Mind (Jan 8, 2011)

An inside taan sau (with a simultaneous punch and a body pivot) is not a bad option. A well-executed taan sau should be as fast to throw as a straight punch. It also gives you the chance for many excellent followups.


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## Nabakatsu (Jan 8, 2011)

That's pretty much the same thing as what the clip shows, we call the position an outside fook sau, I learned that first with wtxs, during my brief trip out to Texas, soon as I got back and showed a lower level student the structure, Sifu taught us pretty much the same thing, just incorporated our footwork with it. Good stuff!


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## Victor Parlati (Jan 23, 2011)

Here's how I do it, from TWC. Watch both vid:


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## wtxs (Jan 25, 2011)

Victor Parlati said:


> Here's how I do it, from TWC. Watch both vid:



Welcome my friend, had enjoy your post(s) on the other board, coming on the this forum is like taking an well deserved vacation ... hope you well stay for awhile and share your WC views.


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## Victor Parlati (Jan 25, 2011)

Thank you, and glad to be here.


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## Sifu Palmer (Feb 13, 2011)

Right hook=left Tan, left hook=right Tan....Wing Chun is all center line and direct path, a hook is a circular strike. Fastest way through a circle is a straight so unless you are really slow in reacting tan sau will do just fine.


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## Stonecold (Feb 13, 2011)

Cover & return, the counter to a left hook is cover your right side, return a left hook.


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## CRCAVirginia (Feb 14, 2011)

Here is how we handle a large looping hook - Video


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 14, 2011)

CRCAVirginia said:


> Here is how we handle a large looping hook - Video


 
Something missing from this, the principle of lin 'siu dai dar' or simultaneous parrying and attacking.  Where is the da or strike?  The strike helps to slow down any continued attack or stop the attack completely.  In the defense shown, there is nothing preventing the attacker from throwing another hooking punch with his other hand immediately.  Without the strike to the attacking person's center, you're doing no better than block then punch like some of the other arts.  You are just playing chase the hands, something you will lose at very quickly.  Not good.

And if you say, that's what the hit (pak) to the shoulder was suppoed to be doing, but we are just being safe.  Then show it, not assume it is understood the pak is to the throat or chin.  People get the wrong idea seeing this, especially beginners, and think thathitting the shoulder with the pak sau is the technique to use.

Also, tan sau is not the best defense for a high hook.  The punch can loop around the tan sau, moving the tan sau and allowing the punch to penetrate your defenses, thus making it ineffective (tan sau going forward and the hook hitting it from the side, the old derail a train theory. I'm sure everyone remembers hearing that).

The best defense to use again a hook is a biu da (hook to the face) or gan da (hook to the body).


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 14, 2011)

Stonecold said:


> Cover & return, the counter to a left hook is cover your right side, return a left hook.


 
Cover with a biu or gan and simultaneously punch straight up their center.


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## CRCAVirginia (Feb 14, 2011)

Where did you see a Tan Da?  As I stated this is against a large looping hook.  It is a simultaneous block and attack and I showed how to stop the second hook or immediately go into an elbow strike.  Not all Wing Chun techniques are simultaneous blocks and attacks.  

It is obvious that your wing chun is not MY Wing Chun.  No problem with that.  When I use our method to stop hooks the opponent will not want to throw another one. 

Who cares what beginners think?  They should be learning from their teachers not Youtube...

I showed how WE handle hooks.    

Please show your video of the BEST defense for a hook (your words)...


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## wtxs (Feb 14, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Something missing from this, the principle of lin 'siu dai dar' or simultaneous parrying and attacking.  Where is the da or strike?  The strike helps to slow down any continued attack or stop the attack completely.  In the defense shown, there is nothing preventing the attacker from throwing another hooking punch with his other hand immediately.  Without the strike to the attacking person's center, you're doing no better than block then punch like some of the other arts.  You are just playing chase the hands, something you will lose at very quickly.  Not good.
> 
> And if you say, that's what the hit (pak) to the shoulder was suppoed to be doing, but we are just being safe.  Then show it, not assume it is understood the pak is to the throat or chin.  People get the wrong idea seeing this, especially beginners, and think thathitting the shoulder with the pak sau is the technique to use.




As the saying goes ... you fight the way you had trained.

WC concept is to end the confrontation quickly and in as few moves as possible ... personally I would had cycled the parrying hand immediately into an hand/elbow strike before the second round house has the chance to come around, while cycle the first striking hand to handle the second round house when it does.


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 14, 2011)

CRCAVirginia said:


> Where did you see a Tan Da?


 
The tan da remark was for someone's previous post, not your video. Sorry.



CRCAVirginia said:


> As I stated this is against a large looping hook. It is a simultaneous block and attack and I showed how to stop the second hook or immediately go into an elbow strike.


 
If you use a wu pak, you're putting 2 hands (yours) on one (of theirs) leaving the other hand unattended. So, you're blocking their hand (punch) and attacking the shoulder from the same side punch? What stops them from throwing a punch from the other hand (like most people) immediately as you wu pak, which doesn't give you a chance to elbow immediately? *Nothing!* Remember, an attacker can move just as fast or as much as you do. So you're going to let them have *two* chances to hit you instead of one? Especially since you could have ended the attack as the first hook was thrown by hitting them on the chin or throat. 

I would much rather hit them on the chin or throat first, instead of the shoulder, as I parry their hook (with biu sau), giving an element of surprise by stunning or hurting them and then following up with an elbow or battle punch (or something) because I had the time from stunning them with a punch too, rather than give them a *chance* to throw another punch that just may land. 



CRCAVirginia said:


> Not all Wing Chun techniques are simultaneous blocks and attacks.


 
Yes, you're right, they aren't. But you should always think that way so as to be efficient and having a better chance of surviving an attack. Also, with that in mind, you don't get away from the core principles of what make Wing Chun such an efficient art. 



CRCAVirginia said:


> It is obvious that your wing chun is not MY Wing Chun. No problem with that. When I use our method to stop hooks the opponent will not want to throw another one.


 
I'm glad it works for you. But if you can hit them in the shoulder, why can't you hit them on the chin? It's just as easy. I'm just giving you something that should work better for you. I would much rather hit an attacker in the throat or chin and knock them for a loop than hit them in the shoulder. Try it, I bet you'll like that.



CRCAVirginia said:


> Who cares what beginners think? They should be learning from their teachers not Youtube....


 
What? Who cares what beginners think? Are you kidding me? Beginners are very impressionable (because they look at a martial arts teacher as a Master who has all the answers) and once something is learned incorrectly, takes a long time to correct. Beginners are our future. Without them Wing Chun (or any art) may just go the way of the dinasaur. I don't think they should be watching Youtube videos to learn Wing Chun either, but hey, you or I can't stop them from doing it. And what a lot of people see on Youtube, they believe. And they mis-interpret what they see. That is why you will NEVER see a video posted online from me. If you want to see our gung fu and learn it, you have to come to us in person to see it and be taught the way we do it. I have no use for a medium that has no control over what is put up or shown. Anyone can put anything up and call it whatever they want. To me that is just irresponsible.

Wouldn't it be much better for someone to come to you and learn what you have to offer rather than try to copy it and most likely do it incorrectly from watching a Youtube clip?

As martial arts instructors, we have a responsibility that if we pass on our art, we teach it to others correctly so they can defend themselves and also with the ability to use it the way it was intended. Martial arts is about helping people, helping ourselves, and kicking butt if forced to along the way. You should be concerned about what beginners think.


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## wtxs (Feb 14, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Wouldn't it be much better for someone to come to you and learn what you have to offer rather than try to copy it and most likely do it incorrectly from watching a Youtube clip?
> 
> *As martial arts instructors, we have a responsibility that if we pass on our art, we teach it to others correctly so they can defend themselves and also with the ability to use it the way it was intended.* Martial arts is about helping people, helping ourselves, and kicking butt if forced to along the way. You should be concerned about what beginners think.



Braaavo ... and I DAAAAAAAARE any one to dispute this concept.

Now stop that Zepeda, you are making way too much sense ...


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 14, 2011)

wtxs said:


> . . . . . you are making way too much sense ...


 
It must be the years and years of my Sifu saying 'it must be logical, economical, practical, and efficient', or maybe just doing it wrong and getting hit way too many times did the trick.

Thanks wtxs.


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## CRCAVirginia (Feb 14, 2011)

> People get the wrong idea seeing this, especially beginners, and think thathitting the shoulder with the pak sau is the technique to use.



You took it out of context, I was referring to the above statement.  The video was not meant as a teaching tool, I was demonstrating how WE defend the hook.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 14, 2011)

Zepedawingchun is correct.

joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Feb 14, 2011)

I have to say that Zepedawingchun is 110% correct on this one , simultaneous counter attack *should *be used where ever possible.

With one hand tasked with deflecting , and the other hand attacking the opponents centreline.
Most of the time depending on the trajectory of the round house you can step in with your centreline punch and hit him before his arm has even barely made  contact with your deflecting arm , totally disrupting his forward momentum and taking most of the power of his strike with it.

Hitting him in the shoulder with a Pak is not attacking the centreline and does nothing to effect the centre of his body mass or shut down the main computer , his brain.

It seems to be more in line with the Phillipino arts concepts of a limb destruction if anything.

As was mentioned before having that Pak way over there at his shoulder is just too damn risky , when you consider that most people attack in a series of combinations.

Also seems to be a bit of a clash in that you are trying to stop the attacking limb dead in its tracks rather than redirecting it and decelerating it , that energy has to go somewhere and it will be going straight into your shoulders and destabilising your stance.

You may get away with it against someone your own size or smaller , but against someone bigger I think it would be a bit of a gamble.

You maybe able to get him with the elbow before he comes at you with the other hand , but its more than likely you will still be hit as well.

Of course there are times when the rules must be broken and we may have to use two of our limbs to stop one of his , but this would generally speaking only be in the case of a huge disparity in size and strength of the two combatants involved.

There are better ways to go about it , if worse comes to worse and you do have to deflect a powerful strike with both your arms .

The techniques involved use the power of the circle to redirect the force and spread it over a wider area , it also means that the more committed the strike the more the  opponent is pulled off balance.
As soon as the force of the strike has been neutralised then the attacking arm is latched down asap and a counter strike is launched.

This serves to 
 (A) Pull the attacker into your strike , increasing the damage done. 
 (B) Controls the arm and takes it out of the picture so it is no longer a threat
 (C) Puts the attacker in an off balanced position.

With these three things happening at once it makes it very difficult for the opponent to try and do a strike from his other hand .

I don't like it but if you are going to continue to use the technique that you are using and it sounds like you will , no matter what we say , then I suggest that you maybe simultaneously lap sau his punching arm down  from your Wu Sau hand and from your Pak Sau hand strike straight up to the throat with a Fak Sau since it is already in that vicinity.

At least it will destabilise his stance and stop him from generating any torque if he does decide to strike with the other hand.

We may all do different brands of Wing Chun , but the principles remain the same although the terms might differ.
Any technique must be rigorously put through the filter of
SIMPLICITY
DIRECTNESS
ECONOMY OF MOVEMENT
MINIMUM USE OF BRUTE STRENGTH
PRACTICALITY

If the technique does not satisfy these requirements then the question has to be asked 
"Is it really Wing Chun?".

Please don't take these observations as a personal attack , that is not my intention at all.
We are just trying to help you make your Wing Chun a bit more direct and efficient than what it is now.


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## geezer (Feb 14, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> If you use a wu pak, you're putting 2 hands (yours) on one (of theirs) leaving the other hand unattended. So, you're blocking their hand (punch) and attacking the shoulder from the same side punch? What stops them from throwing a punch from the other hand (like most people) immediately as you wu pak...



 I have to agree. "Two hands to control one" is generally unwise. Especially if your opponent knows what he's doing.




zepedawingchun said:


> I'm glad it works for you. But if you can hit them in the shoulder, *why can't you hit them on the chin? It's just as easy*. I'm just giving you something that should work better for you. I would much rather hit an attacker in the throat or chin and knock them for a loop than hit them in the shoulder...



Actually there are certain "long-bridge" hooking strikes used in some styles (Tibetan Crane for example). Against stuff like that,  I suppose you might not be able to reach your attacker's face if you don't aggressively move inside with your counterattack. But then you'd be too far out to follow up with an elbow either. I don't know. I've only met about one guy in my life who could ever use that stuff in a fight. Sooo... it's not something I'd train for. On the other hand, sometimes, I've had students do drills where they hit the shoulder sort of like that.... but  we it's because we wanted to practice testing our techniques against some heavy power and didn't have any gloves or gear handy. Otherwise I'd sure rather hit the face too! So I'm with Zepeda and Vajramusdi on this.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 14, 2011)

A good hook is a very very dangerous thing. OTOH with practice and good timing a skilled wing chun person can inside lop the hook's bridge and indeed use the other hand - a palm
 at the shoulder to put the guy on the floor.. if you know how to balance yourself and the other persons center.

joy


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 15, 2011)

CRCAVirginia said:


> You took it out of context, I was referring to the above statement. The video was not meant as a teaching tool, I was demonstrating how WE defend the hook.


 
Maybe the video was not meant as a teaching tool, but many people who see it will think it is. And the way the video is done, it is being illustrated as a how to along with an explanation.

Before Studying Wing Chun, I did a little JKD Concepts (Guro Dan Inosanto's idea of JKD) and was taught the shoulder stop (originally from Kali). I thought it had merit, until I began Wing Chun and found it was just as easy to execute a biu sau to the hook and da to the opponent's center (face, chin, throat) and much more effective. The shoulder stop can be effective, especially if you have a knife in each hand and don't want to kill someone. A knife in the hooking arm and one in the shoulder works very well to stop an attack. But empty handed, I feel you can do better.


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 15, 2011)

Victor Parlati said:


> Here's how I do it, from TWC. Watch both vid:


 
Not sure why I missed this, but in the original poster's links, the first video also illustrates doing a shoulder stop, and inflicting damage or pain.  As stated, not my idea of efficiency.  Hitting in the face, chin, or throat does much more damage and causes much more pain than striking the shoulder.  And still, if you can strike the shoulder, you could strike the chin with just as much ease.

The second clip does show striking to the center (chin) instead but also talks about what to do if you miss.  A better idea than the first clip.


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## wtxs (Feb 15, 2011)

CRCAVirginia said:


> You took it out of context, I was referring to the above statement.  *The video was not meant as a teaching tool, I was demonstrating how WE defend the hook*.



You should know by now people on this forum tends to take their WC very serious.

The video may had not intended as an teaching aid, however, when you demonstrate any technique ... you are showing how it is or had to be executed, which how it was transmitted (taught) to you ... and by default, you in-turn show you student by demonstrating what you had been taught, in an nutshell may friend, that *IS* teaching.


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## wtxs (Feb 15, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Braaavo ... and I DAAAAAAAARE any one to dispute this concept.
> 
> Now stop that Zepeda, you are making way too much sense ...





zepedawingchun said:


> It must be the years and years of my Sifu saying 'it must be logical, economical, practical, and efficient', or maybe just doing it wrong and getting hit way too many times did the trick.
> 
> Thanks wtxs.



Nooo ... Zepeda, thank you!

We need more people on this forum whom are willing to face the consequences of making the judgement call when needed and telling it like it should be.

Like I had said before, the quality of WC for our future generation *IS* in our hands.

Here is a toast to you .. :cheers:


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## zepedawingchun (Feb 15, 2011)

Thanks for the toast, wtxs.  It is much appreciated.

I never really think about the future of our art as in our hands.  But you are right.  All I ever wanted to do was pass it on as best I could.  Like it's been (and continues to be) passed to me.  That's why it burns me up to hear about this fake teaching Wing Chun, or that fake taking advantage of people who are not knowledgeable of the arts, etc.

Hopefully this forum is one way to tell people and help them learn about this very dynamic art we call Wing Chun.


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## wtxs (Feb 15, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Thanks for the toast, wtxs.  It is much appreciated.
> 
> I never really think about the future of our art as in our hands.  But you are right.  All I ever wanted to do was pass it on as best I could.  Like it's been (and continues to be) passed to me.  That's why it burns me up to hear about this fake teaching Wing Chun, or that fake taking advantage of people who are not knowledgeable of the arts, etc.
> 
> Hopefully this forum is one way to tell people and help them learn about this very dynamic art we call Wing Chun.



I don't worried much about people teaching fake WC this days, it's the low quality, substandard, and the "my modified and mo better" WC (because they don't know enough and have not put in the time or effort in the learning process).

Surely WC has to keep pace with our modern requirements, the only way we can make it better is by fully understand the WC concepts and principles ... not by making up ***** along the way and try to validate their so call achievements ... some may even call that  evolution of WC. :soapbox:


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## Svemocn1vidar (Mar 4, 2011)

Our choice of defense against hook punch really depends on 'what kind of hook punch it really is',we must consider distance,postion of the shoulder/elbow and speed of the incoming attack.
Short range hooks are in my honest opinion more difficult to defend. They may lack in power,but they are still extremely dangerous and hard to catch. Tan Sao is always an option,or Tan-Da to be more precise,the best way is to counter it immediatly,no matter the position and range. Sometimes,if there's enough distance,you could also counter it with a straight punch,( left hand for right incoming hook and vice-versa ).
If it's an obvious hook ( given the chance the attacker is slower and inexperienced ) and distance is large enough,straight kicks are also an option.
I am not experienced Wing Chun practicioner myself,just started doing it seriously,but i had my share of fights and those i fought usually used hooks and circle attacks,somewhat natural way to fight ( for those without experience that is ).. I usually placed my hand in "Tan Sao" position,or something similiar,quite naturally,even before i had any Wing Chun training.
Hope that helped,if at all.
Cheerz and respect to ALL Wing Chun schools.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 4, 2011)

Svemocn1vidar said:


> . . . . . Tan Sao is always an option,or Tan-Da to be more precise,the best way is to counter it immediatly,no matter the position and range. Sometimes,if there's enough distance,you could also counter it with a straight punch,( left hand for right incoming hook and vice-versa ). . . . .


 
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  Tan sau is not the best option.  A lot of people use it against a hook, but that doesn't make it the best option.  You have to remember, a hook is a circular punch either to the head or lower ribs (if performed correctly).  No one hooks to your chest (why would they with all that mass to get through).  Tan sau is projected forward to disperse anything it meets head on.  Tan sau does not work well with energy coming from the side.  A hook just slips around behind the hand and comes in.  So it actually overpowers the tan moving it off its line from the side.  Also, tan sau is not supposed to be used to protect the face or lower ribs.  In order to do that, the elbow would have to be at neck level for the face, making the tan too high and very weak, and waist level to protect the lower ribs (too low).  To protect the face you should use biu sau (biu da) and the lower ribs you should use gan sau (gan da).  If you have time to use a tan sau (tan da), you also have time to use a biu (da) or a gan (da).


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## wtxs (Mar 4, 2011)

Svemocn1vidar said:


> Tan Sao is always an option,or Tan-Da to be more precise,the best way is to counter it immediatly,no matter the position and range.





zepedawingchun said:


> If you have time to use a tan sau (tan da), you also have time to use a biu (da) or a gan (da).



Even when used in an forward "cutting" manner, the Tan Sao / Tan Da is structurally weak against the hook, ie its momentum can collapse the Tan and leave you high oustside gate wide open, not to mention compromise you balance and body structure. 

I'm with Zepeda on the Bui, and the "outside fook" shown in the video to be more suitable.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Mar 5, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> I'm sorry, but I have to disagree.  Tan sau is not the best option.  A lot of people use it against a hook, but that doesn't make it the best option.  You have to remember, a hook is a circular punch either to the head or lower ribs (if performed correctly).  No one hooks to your chest (why would they with all that mass to get through).  Tan sau is projected forward to disperse anything it meets head on.  Tan sau does not work well with energy coming from the side.  A hook just slips around behind the hand and comes in.  So it actually overpowers the tan moving it off its line from the side.  Also, tan sau is not supposed to be used to protect the face or lower ribs.  In order to do that, the elbow would have to be at neck level for the face, making the tan too high and very weak, and waist level to protect the lower ribs (too low).  To protect the face you should use biu sau (biu da) and the lower ribs you should use gan sau (gan da).  If you have time to use a tan sau (tan da), you also have time to use a biu (da) or a gan (da).



I wonder where did i state that Tan Sao is the best option? I only indicated "Tan Sao is always an option". I also implied that i belive choice should be made according to distance of the attacker,thus,many options come into play. Usually there's no time to think and body will work on it's own. So far,my reactions against a hook were bursting forward and stoping it with Tan Da. It worked for me,i never said it's "the best option". I agree on using Biu da as one of the best options.
Also as stated by other member,reverse fuk sao is also an option and a good one for that matter. That's about it.
Cheerz.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 5, 2011)

Svemocn1vidar said:


> I wonder where did i state that Tan Sao is the best option? I only indicated "Tan Sao is always an option". I also implied that i belive choice should be made according to distance of the attacker,thus,many options come into play. Usually there's no time to think and body will work on it's own. So far,my reactions against a hook were bursting forward and stoping it with Tan Da. It worked for me,i never said it's "the best option". I agree on using Biu da as one of the best options.
> Also as stated by other member,reverse fuk sao is also an option and a good one for that matter. That's about it.
> Cheerz.


 
Tan sau is an option, pak sau is an option, bong sau is an option, fut sau is an option, kwan sau is an option, any of the Wing Chun hand positions are options.  You can use any hand position you like, but that doesn't make them the correct response against the hook.  Personally, I like to be safe and trust whatever hand position I use will work without having to second guess it.  

I put best option because a majority (a lot) of Wing Chun practitioners use tan sau as the only option.  Using tan is just like driving your street car in a Formula 1 race, your car will finish most likely, but it's not the right car to be driving in that race.  The same with a tan sau against a hook, it may work, but it isnot the correct response.  And tan works most time because the people throwing the hook do it sloppily or incorrectly.  Against a trained boxer, or someone who throws the hook correctly, the tan sau will fail a majority of the time.  Tan sau was not designed to be used against a hook, biu sau (hook high) and gan sau (hook low) are. Use the right tool for the right job only makes sense. 

(Note: the hand position I'm talking about, biu sau, is slightly different than biu jee)


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## geezer (Mar 5, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Use the right tool for the right job only makes sense.
> (Note: the hand position I'm talking about, biu sau, is slightly different than biu jee)



I think you are right on the money with your analysis, _Zepeda_. One thing that continues to cause a little trouble here is the different way various groups apply the classic Chinese terms. For example, the groups coming out of a "WT" background favor _"tan-da"_ and _"fook -da"_ sau. But the tan is more of a "ko-tan sau" or high, forward projecting tan, and the technique I prefer, "fook-da" uses a forward driving, palm down "fook" that sounds a lot like how you describe your "biu sau" or Mook's (TST lineage) "dai-sau", but not at all like our "biu tze sau" (also "shat-geng sau"). Sometimes I think arguments get unnecessarily prolonged online because of the limitations of language. If we were all together in a kwoon, each could demonstrate what they mean. I know when I see a simpler, more effective solution.... that's the end of the argument. I adopt _that_ technique.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 6, 2011)

geezer said:


> I think you are right on the money with your analysis, _Zepeda_. One thing that continues to cause a little trouble here is the different way various groups apply the classic Chinese terms. For example, the groups coming out of a "WT" background favor _"tan-da"_ and _"fook -da"_ sau. But the tan is more of a "ko-tan sau" or high, forward projecting tan, and the technique I prefer, "fook-da" uses a forward driving, palm down "fook" that sounds a lot like how you describe your "biu sau" or Mook's (TST lineage) "dai-sau", but not at all like our "biu tze sau" (also "shat-geng sau"). Sometimes I think arguments get unnecessarily prolonged online because of the limitations of language. If we were all together in a kwoon, each could demonstrate what they mean. I know when I see a simpler, more effective solution.... that's the end of the argument. I adopt _that_ technique.


 
Geezer, always the diplomat.  Follow the link below, it is an article my Sifu's top student at the time (1987-88, somewhere in there) wrote and made it to Inside Kung Fu.  In it is a sequence where he shows biu da.  The first sequence it is used is 3 pictures going vertically then 3 pictures horizontally.  Focus pads are being used by the feeder in both sequences.

http://www.francisfongacademy.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=103

As stated earlier, a hook is either to the head or to the ribs.  No one hooks to the chest, it doesn't make sense to do that.  If a hook is to the head (like in the pictures), using tan sau that high is incorrect, it is too weak.  So biu sau is the proper response.


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