# Put off by the yelling?



## kodora81

Sorry if this seems like a silly thread, but I had to ask about something I've noticed when encouraging others to join MA. Naturally I've tried to encourage loved ones to give MA a chance, and to come down to my dojo and see what they think. And I've had more than one person tell me that they think karate "looks cool", and they'd love to give it a shot, but they won't because they don't want to "yell" while doing the moves. I guess they think it's weird, or embarrassing or something, I'm not entirely sure. 

I dunno, it's not something that particularly made me self-conscious when I first started out. I figure that everyone else in the room is doing the exact same thing, so what's the problem? Granted, one of these people is my 9-year old niece, and I know that can be a very self-conscious age. I tried to explain to her why we "yell" in class and make "snake noises" (breathing), in the hopes that she'll still want to join. She's a super kid, but I think that a bit of discipline and confidence would do a world of wonders for her. 

Anyone else self conscious about anything in particular when they first started?


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## MJS

kodora81 said:


> Sorry if this seems like a silly thread, but I had to ask about something I've noticed when encouraging others to join MA. Naturally I've tried to encourage loved ones to give MA a chance, and to come down to my dojo and see what they think. And I've had more than one person tell me that they think karate "looks cool", and they'd love to give it a shot, but they won't because they don't want to "yell" while doing the moves. I guess they think it's weird, or embarrassing or something, I'm not entirely sure.
> 
> I dunno, it's not something that particularly made me self-conscious when I first started out. I figure that everyone else in the room is doing the exact same thing, so what's the problem? Granted, one of these people is my 9-year old niece, and I know that can be a very self-conscious age. I tried to explain to her why we "yell" in class and make "snake noises" (breathing), in the hopes that she'll still want to join. She's a super kid, but I think that a bit of discipline and confidence would do a world of wonders for her.
> 
> Anyone else self conscious about anything in particular when they first started?



I think more often than not, you'll see people who're nervous or afraid of doing something.  These fears could range from being nervous in general or feeling embarrassed.  Some people are just normally quiet, so the idea of doing a loud kiai can be quiet frustrating.  I'm sure with time, those people will come out of their shell.


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## jks9199

Most people are self conscious and a little embarrassed when they start martial arts.  The uniforms, feeling awkward and uncoordinated, and yes, the noises.  It's normal, and to be expected.  They're starting something new...  

It can help to let them know that, used properly, the yells are a natural outcome, kind of like grunting when you lift something heavy.  In other cases, they're to help you move correctly and synchronize your motions, sort of like a marching cadence or dancing to music.


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## oftheherd1

I think MJS is correct, but I think it just needs to be explained that it isn't just yelling, but is a Kiai (or whatever your style calls it), and the reason is to enhance and focus gi.  Then they also need to be told that they won't likely see the benefits of gi for a quite a while, and of course, without the kiai, they will never reap any benefits.

If that doesn't work, either they just need to mature, or maybe are looking for excuses (how many kids watch Kung Fu Panda or The Ninja Rangers and walk around kiai-ing just to sound cool?)


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## kodora81

Yes, I can definitely empathize with feeling a bit awkward and embarrassed starting out in martial arts - it's a very different experience than what most people are used to. I just found it curious that the kiai was something in particular that was pointed out by some of the women I've spoken to. Can it be said that us women generally don't like undo attention being brought to ourselves? That we're naturally reluctant to show outward aggression by yelling/making noise?


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## Langenschwert

I personally find a good kiai very cathartic. Sometimes I do my batto silently, and it's not nearly as much fun as doing it while yelling. 

-Mark


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## Tez3

kodora81 said:


> Yes, I can definitely empathize with feeling a bit awkward and embarrassed starting out in martial arts - it's a very different experience than what most people are used to. I just found it curious that the kiai was something in particular that was pointed out by some of the women I've spoken to. Can it be said that us women generally don't like undo attention being brought to ourselves? That we're naturally reluctant to show outward aggression by yelling/making noise?



That's a generalistion about women, I've never had any trouble get female white belts 'yelling'. As oftheherd pointed out when you teach the reasons for it beginners understand and will do it. I don't think it has anything to do with aggression nor wanting attention, 'us' women can be very aggressive and very attention seeking and there's nowt wrong with that!.


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## ballen0351

I don't do it.  I'll do it when grading where its supposed to be in the Kara but while in class its just not my thing not that I'm embarrassed because nobody would notice anyway since everyone doing it I just don't bother.


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## Aiseant

I don't know at which point kihap (yelling in tkd) because natural to me and not something I had to actually think to do it

Some people seem almost ashamed of making noise and not always women ... Sometimes I trained with mute guys, and it feels weird for me ^^

I noticed that children would always do it, if you remind them. Mostly because it's part of the rule and the exercise, and they follow what we ask
At some point, they became aware or something, ashamed and stop. Beginner adults are also like that. 
To break that, I usually explain a lot about energy and what kihap can bring to you and how it helps during efforts. Not efficient at the first time, but keep saying and saying and eventually, they'll remember. Making breathing exercise, and kihap altogether. I also try to break the shame they seem to have and explain that I don't care the sound they're making, that your yelling is personal and is yours. Im greatly helped by the fact that we have very good fighters making real strange noise when they're yelling and it breaks the ice


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## kodora81

Tez3 said:


> That's a generalistion about women, I've never had any trouble get female white belts 'yelling'. As oftheherd pointed out when you teach the reasons for it beginners understand and will do it. I don't think it has anything to do with aggression nor wanting attention, 'us' women can be very aggressive and very attention seeking and there's nowt wrong with that!.



Forgiveness Tez, I wasn't trying to generalize in a negative way, I was just following a thread of thought for friendly discussion. Of course there's nothing wrong with women showing aggression or attracting attention - there's plenty of examples in my dojo of the exact opposite (including me).  

I guess what I was getting at was that (many, not all) women aren't used to displaying aggression, and it can take some encouragement to 'crack that shell'. Just my personal observations.


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## Tez3

kodora81 said:


> Forgiveness Tez, I wasn't trying to generalize in a negative way, I was just following a thread of thought for friendly discussion. Of course there's nothing wrong with women showing aggression or attracting attention - there's plenty of examples in my dojo of the exact opposite (including me).
> 
> I guess what I was getting at was that (many, not all) women aren't used to displaying aggression, and it can take some encouragement to 'crack that shell'. Just my personal observations.



I'm afraid "us women" is a bit of a trigger point for me, it always sounds like a sort of sexism. 
The thing about kiai/kihaps is that they need to be taught just as much as learning to kick/punch etc. The 'noise' isn't at all about aggression so no one should have problems from that point of view.


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## kodora81

Tez3 said:


> I'm afraid "us women" is a bit of a trigger point for me, it always sounds like a sort of sexism.
> The thing about kiai/kihaps is that they need to be taught just as much as learning to kick/punch etc. The 'noise' isn't at all about aggression so no one should have problems from that point of view.



No worries. I mainly used that term so that people wouldn't jump all over me thinking I was a man commenting on women (and therefore sounding sexist!)


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## Mauthos

I find a Kiyap, Kiai an odd thing, I understand its purpose and quite comfortably use it in my forms.  Outside of that I have never seen the point.  

It was initially explained to me that the use of shouting when striking could increase the power of my shot, expelling air and therefore generating additional force behind the kick or punch.  Having trained in kick boxing for many years I found that just ensuring I breath out sharply when delivering a kick or punch gives me the same result.

I have also had it explained that the point of a kiyap is to intimidate/scare a potential attacker, again I see the usefulness of this initially, but once you are 'in' the fight, I don't feel that shouting at your opponent again and again is going to have the same impact, in fact I think it will ultimately lessen the effect.

Then I have seen the worse use of a kiyap, shouting to indicate that your technique has landed effectively to ensure the referee knows you have hit your target in competition.  This I really dislike as I have seen several exponents of different martial arts all do this and literally scream their kiyap so loudly that they tense their entire upper bodies whilst normally pulling their fists down to their waists, mouth stretched wide.  This, in my opinion, is a terrible use of the kiyap, if the referee disagrees with you, thinking that your technique did not hit or was not clean you have dropped your guard, slowed your movement down due to unnecessary tensing and more than likely left yourself open to an immediate counter attack.  And if you are one of those that does your kiyap straining your mouth to its extremes, all it takes is one good shot to the chin and you are looking at a potential KO and/or a broken jaw (28psi people! (if hitting accurately and catching the nerve in the jaw, otherwise ~400 will do it, which again is not very much)).  In my opinion a bad use of a kiyap and one that can instil bad habits with regard to point stop fighting.

I personally will hardly kiyap, only in my forms (and then again not in my Kenpo forms as it is not called for), I have a fairly good reputation as a more than capable fighter and although I don't shout every time I think I am going to land a particularly good shot I always breath out (more to ensure adequate clean oxygen getting back into my system when using a gum shield) and people do seem to notice this sharp exhalation of breath, but ultimately I do not personally see the necessity for continual use of a kiyap.


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## Aiseant

This is indeed a very wrong use of kihap ... in fact, yelling because you've won, or because you want people to think you have, is not kihap ... well, it's just yelling 

Yell is also good for your own mind and goes beyond adding force in your kicks or punches: it has a very interesting effect on your breathing capability and muscular delay, for instance. Of course, this is not obvious at the first glance, and isn't really notable until you reach your limits in effort, for my own case anyway.




edit : oh .... by the way, I'm adding myself in the cause : 'us' women don't have trouble yelling  okay ... I'm stopping to feed the troll, sorry


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## Tez3

I've seen the kiai made by competitors hoping to fool the judges into thinking there's a hit but most times it fools nobody lol. Most touch style comps I've been to actually have four judges sat around the mats so it's hard to fool all of them plus the ref. I think they should be doing  full contact and then they'd know for sure whether it's a hit but that's just me :ultracool


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## Xue Sheng

Not much yelling or noises in Internal Chinese Marital Arts and I hav enot seen much in Aikido either


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## Aiseant

Xue Sheng said:


> Not much yelling or noises in Internal Chinese Marital Arts and I hav enot seen much in Aikido either



Yep, totally right : aikido was totally silent where I tried, it's very weird when you're used to make all the sound of the world ^^ I felt really intimidated : no kihap, no noise when you fall


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## DennisBreene

kodora81 said:


> Sorry if this seems like a silly thread, but I had to ask about something I've noticed when encouraging others to join MA. Naturally I've tried to encourage loved ones to give MA a chance, and to come down to my dojo and see what they think. And I've had more than one person tell me that they think karate "looks cool", and they'd love to give it a shot, but they won't because they don't want to "yell" while doing the moves. I guess they think it's weird, or embarrassing or something, I'm not entirely sure.
> 
> I dunno, it's not something that particularly made me self-conscious when I first started out. I figure that everyone else in the room is doing the exact same thing, so what's the problem? Granted, one of these people is my 9-year old niece, and I know that can be a very self-conscious age. I tried to explain to her why we "yell" in class and make "snake noises" (breathing), in the hopes that she'll still want to join. She's a super kid, but I think that a bit of discipline and confidence would do a world of wonders for her.
> 
> Anyone else self conscious about anything in particular when they first started?



An excellent point in the first entry is that the perception of the kiai tends to inhibit some people from attempting MA.  This saddens me.  I believe that the kiai has benefit and I certainly would not advocate limiting its use for public relations reasons.  It might be helpful to point out mainstream sports that have incorporated similar grunts or yells. Professional tennis comes to mind for me.  The Williams sisters have practically made it mainstream.


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## Xue Sheng

Aiseant said:


> Yep, totally right : aikido was totally silent where I tried, it's very weird when you're used to make all the sound of the world ^^ I felt really intimidated : no kihap, no noise when you fall



Just the calming sound of bodies hitting the mat


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## Danny T

Xue Sheng said:


> Not much yelling or noises in Internal Chinese Marital Arts and I hav enot seen much in Aikido either



Yeap. No yelling or noises in Wing Chun, just breathe naturally. Heavy exhaling breaths in Boxing and Muay Thai but no yelling. Kali, Silat, Tai Chi, and JKD are all systems I've train and we didn't have much as to yelling in any of them.


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## Tez3

Danny T said:


> Yeap. No yelling or noises in Wing Chun, just breathe naturally. Heavy exhaling breaths in Boxing and Muay Thai but no yelling. Kali, Silat, Tai Chi, and JKD are all systems I've train and we didn't have much as to yelling in any of them.



I think you should do what your style teaches, you don't start changing things around because you don't like or understand one piece of what you are being taught. Not doing kiais in karate would be as bad as doing them in Wing Chun.


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## bookworm_cn317

Kihapping was weird when I first started. It's still kinda weird for me--I still have to be reminded(sometimes.) I am better at actually kihaping.


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## Danny T

Tez3 said:


> I think you should do what your style teaches, you don't start changing things around because you don't like or understand one piece of what you are being taught. Not doing kiais in karate would be as bad as doing them in Wing Chun.


Agreed. When in Rome do as Romans do. However of the many martial systems I have been exposed to there are more without yelling than there is. I did do some Gojo Ryu and some Shotokan 30 years ago and though some performed yells at certain parts the men who were the instructors at the time felt a strong exhalation sufficed and that understanding what the movements could be used for were more important that being able to yell loudly.


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## Giant Marshmallow

I admit I found the yelling a little intimidating at first, until I learned when and why. Now it just seems natural.  Perhaps explaining to those who were bothered by it would help.


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## CK1980

The various schools I attended throughout the years always had their own ideas of where a "yell" should be...  Probably the best way it was explained to me was that depending on what you were doing, there were certain ways you needed to breathe.  These breaths would generate their own sound and that without those breaths, your strike or block would not be nearly as effective and you just may find yourself holding your breath!

I actually watched a guy get very close to passing out because he didn't want to "sst" when he punched.  And for me personally, I found out that the heavy exhale that sounded like an odd scream when kicking (along with the fundamentals of a kick) helped me deliver a powerful strike and brace for the impact of that strike.

Yeah, it sounds weird.  Yeah, it sounds funny.  But there is a point and a purpose...  If your friends are opposed to "yelling" take a moment to show them in a practical way the difference between executing a maneuver without it and then with it.  There should be a noticeable difference in the outcome...  It might help them understand it a little better


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## lavender

Another thing: Along with a good yell, the abdominals tighten. If you get hit wrong (or right, haha) it can knock the breath out of you. If you are ready to tighten your abs like with a good yell, when you get hit like that, it won't effect you as much and you recover faster. That's kind of how it was explained to me.... The yelling and hissing is partly training, in case you get hit like that in sparring.

Can you imagine people without enough confidence to try to yell having enough confidence to defend themselves?


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## RTKDCMB

A lot of people who walk through the doors of the training hall are self conscious and a bit shy. It is perfectly natural for someone going into a new situation and not want to stand out by making a loud noise such as a kiap. You just have to explain to them what are the reasons for all of the yelling. You can say to them that they would stand out if they did not yell and that during training it is a good opportunity yell and let off some steam. Where else can you yell at the top of your lungs without getting into trouble with your parents or disturbing the neighbors. If they do not kiap loud at first just explain that it is something that gets better with practice. The kiap should be short, sharp, loud and scary and come from deep within. The kiap serves to tension the body to protect from attack whilst striking and to distract your opponent. If you go up to a complete stranger and suddenly shout at them as loud as you can with a kiap and they will jump (be startled) and that small moment of hesitation gives you a split second longer to get your strike in (to your opponent not the complete stranger you yelled at). The kiap can attract attention when you are getting attacked, if a member of the public walks past and hears the kiap they may investigate and try to help or be witnesses (not very likely). It is also has a psychological effect on increasing the power in striking (its hard to not put in a lot of effort when you are giving a loud kiap). It's something new students will get used to eventually just encourage them and give it time.


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## Cyriacus

lavender said:


> Another thing: Along with a good yell, the abdominals tighten. If you get hit wrong (or right, haha) it can knock the breath out of you. If you are ready to tighten your abs like with a good yell, when you get hit like that, it won't effect you as much and you recover faster. That's kind of how it was explained to me.... The yelling and hissing is partly training, in case you get hit like that in sparring.
> 
> Can you imagine people without enough confidence to try to yell having enough confidence to defend themselves?



Well, to be fair, you *can* tense up your abdominal muscles without yelling. And alot of people dont lack confidence - Theyre socially conditioned to not be loud and noisy. Which makes it 'uncomfortable' for them to *be* loud and noisy.


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## Xue Sheng

lavender said:


> Can you imagine people without enough confidence to try to yell having enough confidence to defend themselves?



A Chinese Martial Art Point of View

Can you imagine someone only being able to handle a hit when they yell..... that means I attack that person again immiediatly after they yell...when they inhale.... and they will have to inhale

Yelling and kia and all that has its place and is basic training for many arts....not the ones I train... but many.... just because someone does not or cannot yell has nothing to do with confidence


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## RTKDCMB

Xue Sheng said:


> A Chinese Martial Art Point of View
> 
> Can you imagine someone only being able to handle a hit when they yell..... that means I attack that person again immiediatly after they yell...when they inhale.... and they will have to inhale
> 
> Yelling and kia and all that has its place and is basic training for many arts....not the ones I train... but many.... just because someone does not or cannot yell has nothing to do with confidence



The tightening of the abdominals is just a secondary consequence of the kiap which should also be happening when you exhale during a strike. The exhale, like the kiap, is a short sharp release of air (like a fart but from the other end). It's mainly for a distraction and to increase the amount of effort that is put into a strike (the same reason tennis players grunt when they hit the ball and weight lifters sometimes yell when lifting weights). If you can get a strike in when your opponent whilst they are inhaling you will do a lot more damage but it would be difficult get the timing right in the heat of battle.


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## Xue Sheng

RTKDCMB said:


> The tightening of the abdominals is just a secondary consequence of the kiap which should also be happening when you exhale during a strike. The exhale, like the kiap, is a short sharp release of air (like a fart but from the other end). It's mainly for a distraction and to increase the amount of effort that is put into a strike (the same reason tennis players grunt when they hit the ball and weight lifters sometimes yell when lifting weights). If you can get a strike in when your opponent whilst they are inhaling you will do a lot more damage but it would be difficult get the timing right in the heat of battle.



Again a CMA POV

As my Xingyiquan sifu said, if you can only hit when you exhale.... I will hit you right after you exhale because you cannot hit me until you inhale and then exhale.

I know what a kiap is for and can do (trained Japanese MA and Korean before) and I am not saying it is wrong, I am saying it is not the only way and the presence or lack of kiap does not have anything to do with confidence.


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## RTKDCMB

Xue Sheng said:


> , I am saying it is not the only way and the presence or lack of kiap does not have anything to do with confidence.


 
I never suggested it did just that some beginning students don't do it at first because they are shy, self conscious and don't want to feel silly (a new student said that to me once or twice) making loud noises.


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## granfire

Cyriacus said:


> Well, to be fair, you *can* tense up your abdominal muscles without yelling. And alot of people dont lack confidence - Theyre socially conditioned to not be loud and noisy. Which makes it 'uncomfortable' for them to *be* loud and noisy.



[yt]d4ezkrL8L-0 [/yt]

But sadly not everybody can pull that off.

the yell is a tool.
you can't fight when you don't breath. 
sound is optional though, but can have a  secondary purpose....that deep down from your stomach rumbling, it can be scary....much more than any punch you can throw at times....


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## Cyriacus

granfire said:


> [yt]d4ezkrL8L-0 [/yt]
> sound is optional though, but can have a  secondary purpose....that deep down from your stomach rumbling, it can be scary....much more than any punch you can throw at times....



Unless youre me, in which case its an offer to up the level of intensity. I dont doubt thered be people whod interpret it the same way in a less favorable setting.
Me? Id prefer it if what i was doing where what was effective, rather than relying on noise to scare someone, whilst risking provoking stronger actions.


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## granfire

Cyriacus said:


> Unless youre me, in which case its an offer to up the level of intensity. I dont doubt thered be people whod interpret it the same way in a less favorable setting.
> Me? Id prefer it if what i was doing where what was effective, rather than relying on noise to scare someone, whilst risking provoking stronger actions.



all things depend on context....a word uttered in calm can be more menacing than the biggest roar....

however, it is only one thing the Kihap does for you....


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## kodora81

RTKDCMB said:


> I never suggested it did just that some beginning students don't do it at first because they are shy, self conscious and don't want to feel silly (a new student said that to me once or twice) making loud noises.



I think for most people this is what it comes down to. For someone unfamiliar with a dojo setting (and are used to more...er, *conventional* sports), it must be strange to hear all that noise coming from everyone. I think that time and familiarity go a long way to helping students get over their self-consciousness in that regard. Now when I go to my dojo it's the most natural thing in the world. Sweaty lobby with condensation on the front window...people walking in from the sidewalk holding bo staffs...blood-curdling yells that can be heard all the way from the street front......yep! 

:bangahead:


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## Cyriacus

granfire said:


> all things depend on context....a word uttered in calm can be more menacing than the biggest roar....
> 
> however, it is only one thing the Kihap does for you....



Right...


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## K-man

It would be interesting to have a hands up of those who 'kiai' but don't believe in 'ki'.   :asian:


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## Hapkidoguy

Sometimes I yell. Sometimes I don't . It sometimes seems pointless and other times seems right. i do think proper breathing is the important  part. If someone can control that they dont need to yell.  Just a thought.


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## Instructor

Hapkidoguy I just wanted to welcome you to Martial Talk! If you haven't yet you should do an intro thread.


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## lavender

Cyriacus said:


> Well, to be fair, you *can* tense up your abdominal muscles without yelling. And alot of people dont lack confidence - Theyre socially conditioned to not be loud and noisy. Which makes it 'uncomfortable' for them to *be* loud and noisy.




Of course you can. Yelling can be a tool to teach them that.  We're talking beginners learning to yell. Not everyone automatically knows how their body works. Still sounds like the socially conditioned people you mentioned lack confidence. 






Xue Sheng said:


> A Chinese Martial Art Point of View
> 
> 
> Can you imagine someone only being able to handle a hit when they yell..... that means I attack that person again immiediatly after they yell...when they inhale.... and they will have to inhale
> 
> 
> Yelling and kia and all that has its place and is basic training for many arts....not the ones I train... but many.... just because someone does not or cannot yell has nothing to do with confidence




Whoever said we turn into noodles after yelling? If they had the confidence to defend themselves, they would be confident enough to yell. Of course that does not mean a person HAS to yell if they are confident. Imagine some parent that yells alot and the kid doesn't respond how the parent wanted and the adult is flummoxed. Obviously just being loud is not always enough to be effective.






RTKDCMB said:


> The tightening of the abdominals is just a secondary consequence of the kiap which should also be happening when you exhale during a strike. The exhale, like the kiap, is a short sharp release of air (like a fart but from the other end). It's mainly for a distraction and to increase the amount of effort that is put into a strike (the same reason tennis players grunt when they hit the ball and weight lifters sometimes yell when lifting weights). If you can get a strike in when your opponent whilst they are inhaling you will do a lot more damage but it would be difficult get the timing right in the heat of battle.




We don't yell on every move. That would be strange. There is a lot of hissing or "ch"ing that can go on. Not necessarily with beginners, though. At some point they learn kiap and the hissing stuff. Beginners don't necessarily know about generating power with the way they breathe, the yell is A place to start them learning.

While timing your strike with an opponents exhale may be tricky, it's possible to do it by accident, or as a side effect of what your trying to do (still an accident). I already knew how yelling generates power, I didn't know the point the instructor made about the tightening having a protective function. Depending on which kids come to class on a given day, it can be easier to explain the protective function.





We're talking beginners here. I have in mind a particular beginning student, his kick would barely change the direction of a flying insect if he hit one. So light it barely could count as exercise. It's soooo hard to get him to yell. I don't expect the kids to kick the target out of my hand. Getting him to yell, to feel that power in his abs, his center, it might ground him enough to feel that he has more power and along with that a touch more confidence, and bring more ooomph into his kicks. Perhaps feeling that power, knowing it's there, would make him look less like a good target for bullies.



To the OP's question, when I started I only had a little trouble with yelling. Now I easily use it in classes. My favorite time to yell is once at the start of a sparring match. Now it's more of a self-preparation thing. Instead of running through lengthy mental list of things to prepare myself, the yell reminds me of those things in a moment. A bigger problem was being worried about the people watching. We were located in a mall and there was a long window to the hallway and people often would stop and watch. I got used to it, but I still like to practice in privacy. I still have trouble performing (as in practicing, haven't tried a competition for a while) in front of people sometimes.


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## Aiki Lee

Ugh, I just wrote a rather in depth response about the useage of kiai and why it's not used in aikido, but then I got the dreaded "MT is not responding" message and lost the whole thing. I hate that when it happens.

So to sum up the points I was going to make:

Kiai ellict different physiological responses in the body and change a person's breathing depending on the type of kiai used.

Kiai and aiki are opposite concepts. That's why they are not present in aikido. Kiai puts out your ki (or intention for those who have difficulty understanding what ki is about), in aikido you harmonize with the opponents ki, putting your own out there through the use of kiai interupts this harmonizing. That's why aikido focuses on deeper, claming breaths. They help you focus on blending with the energy as you breath in to recieve the attack and breath out to redirect it.


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## Xue Sheng

lavender said:


> Whoever said we turn into noodles after yelling?



No one did, you are missing the point. If you can only take a hit when you yell then there are multiple other instances when you cannot because you cannot yell. If you can only strike hard and yell or for that matter only after an exhale then you are open to attack right after you exhale since you need the exhale to strike with power or be able to take the attack. Basically if you train only strike or take a punch with a yell and or an exhale you are open to attack on the inhale. And if you stay to tense after the exhale, using too much muscle to stay tense you cannot fight either and are again open to attack and not being able to respond or counter. 



lavender said:


> If they had the confidence to defend themselves, they would be confident enough to yell. Of course that does not mean a person HAS to yell if they are confident. Imagine some parent that yells alot and the kid doesn't respond how the parent wanted and the adult is flummoxed. Obviously just being loud is not always enough to be effective.



If they are confident enough to defend themselves they could be confident enough to yell but not yelling or not wanting to yell or not seeing a need to yell does not mean lack of confidence

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts has no yelling at all, none in the Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Changquan, Wing Chun, or taijiquan I have trained. And no yelling in the non-traditional (police/military Sanda) CMA I trained either. 

Yelling or a kiap, has its place in training some marital arts, but it is not the only way and it is not found in all martial arts. But I will admit it looks really cool in a movie


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## K-man

Himura Kenshin said:


> Kiai and aiki are opposite concepts. That's why they are not present in aikido. Kiai puts out your ki (or intention for those who have difficulty understanding what ki is about), in aikido you harmonize with the opponents ki, putting your own out there through the use of kiai interupts this harmonizing. That's why aikido focuses on deeper, claming breaths. They help you focus on blending with the energy as you breath in to recieve the attack and breath out to redirect it.


Then again the kiai can disrupt your opponent's Ki.



> Kiai - combative shout
> The term kiai is sometimes talked about in conjunction with aikido training and refers to a "combative shout" used to disrupt or neutralize the attack of an opponent.
> The use of this powerful vocalization technique corresponds to the exhalation of breath and concentrates the body and spirit of nage at a specific point.
> The end result of a well-executed kiai is a disruption uke's ki flow and a dissipation of his attack.
> Often uke's movement will be frozen for a brief instant thus presenting nage with an excellent opportunity to apply a technique.
> *O-Sensei frequently used kiai as a tool to set up and control his uke. *He used it particularly often when demonstrating with the sword.
> Ironically, the Founder's use of this technique is so effective that his ukes' attacks often appear half-hearted because they have been interrupted by his well-timed kiai.
> http://www.aikidoschool-senshinkan.be/Beelden/Exploring the Founder.pdf



and ...



> This social climate affected the practice of postwar aikido in which training tended to be low-keyed and non-martial. Further, the use of atemi, kiai, and weapons were discouraged because of the image of militarism they conjured up and fear of possible reprisals from occupation forces who had initially banned the practice of Japanese martial arts. This observation refers specifically to the Aikikai, by far the largest aikido organization. *Yoshinkan Aikido retained the practice of atemi and kiai*, and Kenji Tomiki introduced a sport component in his approach entered at Waseda University.
> http://blog.aikidojournal.com/2013/...f-aikido-technique-article-by-stanley-pranin/



We only use it with funakogi but as the quote says, i have seen practitioners of Yoshinkan Aikido using kiai.    :asian:


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## Cyriacus

lavender said:


> Of course you can. Yelling can be a tool to teach them that.  We're talking beginners learning to yell. Not everyone automatically knows how their body works. Still sounds like the socially conditioned people you mentioned lack confidence.



There are ways you can support yelling - This one though, i ask that you ask a few random untrained people to tense their abdomens without sucking their guts in. Everyone can do it, easy as pie


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## mook jong man

We don't yell in Wing Chun because it takes away from the beautiful  stacatto  sound of our fists hitting someone in the face.

But seriously , I believe it comes down to practical reasons , Wing Chun uses rapid attacking movements that are closely chained together in timing.

When would you start yelling ?
At the start of the chain , in the middle , or when you do the finishing technique ?
Pretty soon you would be hyperventilating and out of breath , in other words wasting energy that could probably be better utilised to do the actual fighting itself.

For Wing Chun natural breathing works best.


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## Aiki Lee

K-man said:


> Then again the kiai can disrupt your opponent's Ki.
> We only use it with funakogi but as the quote says, i have seen practitioners of Yoshinkan Aikido using kiai.    :asian:



I shouldn't have said they aren't present in aikido. What I should have said is they mostly aren't present during the aiki actions themselves in the same manner you would use one while striking. They can be used during the pauses between actions. Also I have seen aikidoka use the kiai of "oooooooh" when when blending with the energy which is a type of kiai, but it is a kiai meant to blend with energy not disrupt it.

The post I had written would have explained that better but well, you know...

My teacher follows they aikikai and I haven't seen him kiai. I'm all for the use of kiai in its apporpriate contexts, but to each his own.


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## RTKDCMB

Another secondary reason for the kihap is to attract students to your class. Many people who know nothing about martial arts expect shouting so when they hear the loud kihaps of the students in your class they may become curious and decide to have a look. When they see a good dynamic class with all the the students showing plenty of spirit by shouting loud when they punch and kick they may decide that this is the class for them. Of course many people aren't looking for that kind thing.


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## K-man

RTKDCMB said:


> Another secondary reason for the kihap is to attract students to your class.


Yeah, right!      :lfao:


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## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> Another secondary reason for the kihap is to attract students to your class. Many people who know nothing about martial arts expect shouting so when they hear the loud kihaps of the students in your class they may become curious and decide to have a look. When they see a good dynamic class with all the the students showing plenty of spirit by shouting loud when they punch and kick they may decide that this is the class for them. Of course many people aren't looking for that kind thing.



I assume you posted tongue in cheek here?


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## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> I assume you posted tongue in cheek here?



That depends on whose tongue in whose cheek.


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## Gnarlie

RTKDCMB said:


> That depends on whose tongue in whose cheek.



Creepy.

Gnarlie


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## Aiki Lee

RTKDCMB said:


> That depends on whose tongue in whose cheek.



Intriguing...





jk :lol:


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## Keramory

I personally disliked the yelling and noises when I was young even up to recently. I also know I'm not the only one, especially when I was younger. I'm fairly quiet and the idea of yelling was a turn off.
I now know, as most experienced martial artists hopefully know, the sounds are very important so of course I add them in.

I think its just something you grow to understand and its the teachers job to instruct on the importance of the noises...but give the student time to adjust, even more so if a child.


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## Metal

oftheherd1 said:


> how many kids watch Kung Fu Panda or The Ninja Rangers and walk around kiai-ing just to sound cool?



I think that's funny, coz there are sooooo many kids being noisy and yelling/screaming and then when they're aloud or even encouraged to do it in martial art classes then they don't do it. ^^


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## donald1

"in the hopes that she'll still want to join. She's a super kid, but I think that a bit of discipline and confidence would do a world of wonders for her." 
[/QUOTE]

thats a good idea, after 7 years of being on the football and wrestling team and 3 in karate. discipline and confidence goes a longer way then any expectations. if those that is applied theres a lot of possibilities just waiting.(its difficult and takes time but is worth it)


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## Happy-Papi

Coming from CQC and traditional FMA we don't yell and try to be very silent as much as possible. Even when we choke we try to wrap our legs and clasp the nostril and mouth to prevent feet clatters, squeals and cries. It was hard for me not to sound off when practicing at first but I got used to it after I was scolded by my seniors when I brought yelling in our practice. They said that yelling is good but is a big no for our group since we focus on silence. One senior even commented, "Do you want to scare him or do you want to kill him?", lol. Instead of yelling, laughing is very normal in our group during training. Laughing is something like a kiai to us and laughing is very normal for Filipinos since we are a happy people  

I passed the same training to my son and he too is not comfortable with yelling but since he does Judo and Karate also, he has to follow their rules. We noticed that he yells only during competition and only during a finishing strike/blow or throw. His yell style is so fake and often times delayed that it is funny to watch. There are several times that we saw him give a sleeper choke and only yelled when the simpans were running towards them to assist his opponent because he was sleeping and that was about 6 to 10 seconds after the KO plus yelling and choking is a total mismatch, lol. Another time is when he yelled seconds after his opponent is on the ground after a judo throw. Another is when he kicked his opponent on the neck and yelled seconds after and it was a KO. It seems that his yelling is his way of telling the simpans, "look ma, it's a KO" but the delay is funny. Luckily his instructors from other arts understands his sound off delays. They understand that he is trying to fit in by trying to yell but the delay is funny and can probably be taken as offensive or as a joke by the opponent's team. Imagine being KO and hearing a yell seconds after???


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## RTKDCMB

Another reason for the yell is to help with correct breathing (some people hold their breath when sparring or performing patterns and thus run out of breath easily) - it's hard to hold your breath when you are yelling loudly.


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## Argus

I've taken a little Karate, and it was a very un-natural thing, for a number of reasons. I'm a very quiet person by nature, and also wasn't really shown how to do it at first.

Moreover, I still don't really understand it. I'm sure there is a good reason why it is used, but coming from a logical standpoint, and a Wing-Chun perspective, the following things kind of baffle me:

1. When do you use it? You obviously can't kiai with every strike. And when you do, you've just expelled all (or a very large portion) of the air in your lungs, requiring you to breath in immediately after to recover your breath.

2. This one is really big. I wouldn't ever want to open my mouth in the middle of a fight if I don't have to. It seems the jaw and teeth would be very susceptible to damage the moment you do; and that moment which you commit yourself to a strike is also the moment that you are most likely to be struck yourself. 

3. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't actually know when or if a strike will connect until the moment it does, and if I have to think about yelling at that point, I've already missed my opportunity. Moreover, if I yell any sooner, I'm either giving myself away, or making myself look really funny if my attack is interrupted!

Most likely, I simply don't understand the purpose of Kiai, though. Is it just for the mindset when executing the kata, and not for practical application, or are there other considerations that I'm failing to realize?





mook jong man said:


> We don't yell in Wing Chun because it takes away from the beautiful  stacatto  sound of our fists hitting someone in the face.
> 
> But seriously , I believe it comes down to practical reasons , Wing Chun uses rapid attacking movements that are closely chained together in timing.
> 
> When would you start yelling ?
> At the start of the chain , in the middle , or when you do the finishing technique ?
> Pretty soon you would be hyperventilating and out of breath , in other words wasting energy that could probably be better utilised to do the actual fighting itself.
> 
> For Wing Chun natural breathing works best.



I'm imagining something along the lines of a machine gun.

"A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A"


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## Kung Fu Wang

Yielding is contradict to calmness. MA training suppose to teach you, "When a mountain collapse right in front of you, your facial expression should not change."

Just watched a movie "You're Next" the other day. In that movie, instead of like all other horror movies that a girl was running, falling, and screaming. The girl in that movie was very quite (so she won't exposed her location) and killed the bad guys one after another.


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## Aiki Lee

Argus said:


> Moreover, I still don't really understand it. I'm sure there is a good reason why it is used, but coming from a logical standpoint, and a Wing-Chun perspective, the following things kind of baffle me:
> 
> 1. When do you use it? You obviously can't kiai with every strike. And when you do, you've just expelled all (or a very large portion) of the air in your lungs, requiring you to breath in immediately after to recover your breath.



I know nearly nothing about WC but I understand kiai. And You could kiai with every strike depending on how you are striking and what type of kiai you are using. Kiai is more than yelling to startle someone and just as a means of breath control. Different kiai serve different functions.



Argus said:


> 2. This one is really big. I wouldn't ever want to open my mouth in the middle of a fight if I don't have to. It seems the jaw and teeth would be very susceptible to damage the moment you do; and that moment which you commit yourself to a strike is also the moment that you are most likely to be struck yourself.



Not if you kiai properly. The situation you are describing is the kiai in which you would yell to expel your breath, give a psychological boost to yourself and hopefully startle or freeze someone correct? This kiai needs to be done in between the rhythms of the opponent's movements. That's how you prevent him from hitting you (in addition to using proper distance and angling). You freeze him for a fraction of a second by feinting with kiai between the end of one attack and the beginning of his next one. 



Argus said:


> 3. I don't know what's going to happen. I don't actually know when or if a strike will connect until the moment it does, and if I have to think about yelling at that point, I've already missed my opportunity. Moreover, if I yell any sooner, I'm either giving myself away, or making myself look really funny if my attack is interrupted!



You don't think about kiai, you just do it. Just like you don't think about hitting the breaks when the light goes red; you just do it. You can use kiai as a feint or as a means to psychologically boost yourself into action. It ends the process of conscious thought, kiai is all about unifying your emotions with your actions. It's pure focus, there is no elaborate thought process involved.



Argus said:


> Most likely, I simply don't understand the purpose of Kiai, though. Is it just for the mindset when executing the kata, and not for practical application, or are there other considerations that I'm failing to realize?!



Most people don't understand kiai, because most people think it is for show or to "scare" the opponent. It's not. Different kiai have different applications. Here are a few:

-Kiai can alter your breathing patterns. If you are overly anxious in a fight a long, low kiai can stabilize your emotions and bring them under control. If you are too calm, short quick kiai can build enough anxiety to force you to move. Both the breathing pattern and the sound emitted have reacts in both you and another person.

-Sounds that have a short "A" sound like "Stop" or "Ha!" have a solidifying effect on the person using kiai. It engages the lower stomach muscles and engages the core of the body increasing the ability to move powerfully because the kiai makes one aware of his/her lower muscle groups. The effect it has on an opponent is one exerting your will on him and should be done when needing to engage the lower muscles for the purpose of proper execution of a technique.

-Sounds with a long "O" sound like "Toh" or "Oh!" also tighten the lower muscles and diaphragm but the tightening lasts longer making it an effective sound and breathing pattern for receiving attack. It has a solidifying effect without leaving one feeling tense.

There's more but I have to go so I don't have time to go into the others.






Argus said:


> I'm imagining something along the lines of a machine gun.
> 
> "A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A"



Actually I would suggest a long continuous "Eeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii!".


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## aaradia

I think anyone using the yelling as a reason not to join is just not interested overall and looking for reasons/ excuses. I doubt anyone otherwise compelled to join would let that stop them. 

BTW, in CLF for kicks we yell "dik" I remember my first instructor explaining that it didn't mean the same thing in Chinese that it does in english. It did take a little getting used to yelling that one word specifically.


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## Kung Fu Wang

To me, Kiai (exhale) means "commitment". It can be helpful when you lift heavy weight. As far as striking, I'm not sure it's needed.


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## skribs

I've been told the kiyap has the following benefits:
*Helps you remember to breathe (as said before "snake noises" can do this, but it's just one benefit)
*In a confrontation, not only may it scare your attacker off, but it may also alert others that there is an altercation going on.  (Similar to shouting "HELP" or "FIRE").  This means that the attacker may be scared off because you sound like you know martial arts and/or because of the extra attention your kiyap garners.

In my classes, some white belts have to be reminded to Kiyap (they also tend to be shy and hesitant to do techniques).  Some higher belts do a halfway kiyap that's more of a whine than a shout (and they get flak for it).  However, we kiyap so much that when we start forms, people tend to kiyap at the wrong points, just because they're so used to it.  (Just like after I've been drilling kick/punch combos and I'm supposed to just do the kick in class I'll automatically throw a punch after).

However, I can understand the problem for outsiders.  Watching a class probably reminds the viewer of bad Wire Fu movies where a class of martial artists is practicing in a temple, the same class that usually gets beaten up by the protagonist in a rather embarrassing fashion (both for the defeated baddies and for the audience that cringes every time the wirework becomes obvious).  I actually had someone tell me recently they embarrassed their ex at a class, because every time the class kiyapped, she would laugh uncontrollably.  It probably comes across as very camp to an outsider.


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## geezer

Argus said:


> I still don't really understand it. I'm sure there is a good reason why it is used, but coming from a logical standpoint, and a Wing-Chun perspective...
> 
> ...I'm imagining something along the lines of a machine gun.  "A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A-A"



_Argus,_ that's hillarious. And exactly how it would sound if you tried to kiai when unloading a fast flurry of chain punches! Then you'd pass out from hyperventilating. There's a reason why we don't kiai in WC/WT/VT.

On the other hand, in many arts, a sudden, short expulsion of breath coordinated with your strikes is definitely helpful. Look how boxers expel air when they strike. We do the same thing in the Eskrima I practice. There is a direct _physiological_ benefit. And though not traditional,  that kind of breathing can be used in WC for a final, heavy shot at the end of a flurry. 

On the other hand I suspect that the "yelling" aspect of kiai/kihap has a more _psychological_ effect both on you and your opponent.


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## Balrog

MJS said:


> I think more often than not, you'll see people who're nervous or afraid of doing something.  These fears could range from being nervous in general or feeling embarrassed.  Some people are just normally quiet, so the idea of doing a loud kiai can be quiet frustrating.  I'm sure with time, those people will come out of their shell.



They do.  I explain to them that the voice is a weapon.  The bad guy does NOT want people noticing what he is doing.  If you are kihaping as well as yelling either FIRE! or a loud string of obscenities, it will attract attention and the bad guy will run from witnesses like Dracula from a garlic pizza.


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## Rokuta

Can anyone suggest a strategy to convince a female student to use the Kiai? She recently joined our ninpo class and occasionally sensei asks me to work with her on fundamentals. She is doing very well with the physical aspect, but feels terribly selfconscious yelling. And since I'm only a yellow belt myself I don't have much lore to go by. Any ideas?


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## DennisBreene

Rokuta said:


> Can anyone suggest a strategy to convince a female student to use the Kiai? She recently joined our ninpo class and occasionally sensei asks me to work with her on fundamentals. She is doing very well with the physical aspect, but feels terribly selfconscious yelling. And since I'm only a yellow belt myself I don't have much lore to go by. Any ideas?



Try practice yelling with her so that she feels less isolated.  It may also help to have her use a word initially, such as "hey".


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## Carol

Skip the lore and work on the physiology.  If she doesn't want to yell, don't force her.  Have her exhale instead.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## wingchun100

I have never really felt embarassed about any of it. When summertime comes around, sometimes we will do class outside. Our school is located on a main street in albany. What was weird is I remember one of the most outgoing guys in class asking Sifu if we could go inside because people going by were staring at us and he was self-conscious. 

The way I see it, the immature will make fun of you...but those who are open-minded will ask what you are doing. Or they will be neither of those; they could be indifferent and go by without a word!


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## RTKDCMB

Rokuta said:


> Can anyone suggest a strategy to convince a female student to use the Kiai? She recently joined our ninpo class and occasionally sensei asks me to work with her on fundamentals. She is doing very well with the physical aspect, but feels terribly selfconscious yelling. And since I'm only a yellow belt myself I don't have much lore to go by. Any ideas?



Sometimes new students will be a bit self conscious about yelling in front of people and feel a bit silly at first, it's just normal. Sometimes they subconsciously feel they don't want to stand out and draw attention to themselves by making a loud noise. You can just point out that everybody in class is shouting so she will not be out of place by doing it too and that it is just another thing that will get better with practice.


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## MartialMellow

I agree with the above.  I have just been at it a few months.  I only yell on occasion when going from a ready stance to horse stance.


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