# Adults wearing poom belts



## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

There has been a lot of discussion about the appropriateness of children wearing black belts. But what about adults who wear poom belts? How common is that, how advisable is that? For those who think adults wearing poom belts is ok, do you or your instructor also allow children to wear black belts?


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 19, 2012)

A friend of mine returned to Taekwondo same time I did, at seventeen. She was a 1st Poom, a rank she earned at 11, and I was a 1st keup black stripe. She wore her poom belt for about 2 weeks before a solid color black belt she ordered arrived. I think it was more practicality than anything else, our instructor was ok with it. He was relatively laid back anyway.


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## Archtkd (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> There has been a lot of discussion about the appropriateness of children wearing black belts. But what about adults who wear poom belts? How common is that, how advisable is that? For those who think adults wearing poom belts is ok, do you or your instructor also allow children to wear black belts?



1st Geups in our dojang (whether adult or junior) wear poom belts. Poom and Dan holders all wear black belts.


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## dancingalone (Apr 19, 2012)

Why would an adult in a KKW school wear a poom belt?  As a probationary BB rank?

I have seen other schools, like ATA, use a red/black belt, but that represents an official rank in their system and is not related to age.

Edit:  Just saw the other posts above... Ignore my question.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 19, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> 1st Geups in our dojang (whether adult or junior) wear poom belts. Poom and Dan holders all wear black belts.



You've reminded me of something. My 1st geup belt had a black stripe all the way through it and looked like a Poom belt, kind of. I have forgotten what the stripe signified but I do know I started wearing one at orange belt, just after yellow. 7th keup I guess. Something tells me we used it to denote either competitors, demo team members, or "black belt club" members, rather than any specific rank. I had specific doboks for all of those purposes too. Somewhat unrelated story...

For me, I'd much prefer a black belt student who is the appropriate age wears a black belt rather than a poom belt. I also really wish circumstances had allowed me to earn a poom belt, but why have regrets.


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 19, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Why would an adult in a KKW school wear a poom belt?  As a probationary BB rank?
> 
> I have seen other schools, like ATA, use a red/black belt, but that represents an official rank in their system and is not related to age.
> 
> Edit:  Just saw the other posts above... Ignore my question.



Aren't Combat Hapkido 1st Keups designated by a half red and half black belt? Anyone know?


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2012)

They earned the rank as kid and returned as adult?

Not seeing  big problem here, considering Puuni seems to think it's a lesser belt.

The ITA briefly used the half and half belt as the probationary Black. but it seems not to have been thought out well, since they never indicated which side to put up when putting it on (and since they always specify everything...).
It also looked too much like the 2nd red belt with a black stripe through it. it was quickly replaced by he oreo belt (black with white stripe)


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## rlobrecht (Apr 19, 2012)

Our school (independent chang-hon system) uses poom as black belt candidate.  You've learned and tested on all the material for 1st Dan, however you haven't tested it all at once.  From that point until you test for black, you really learn nothing new.

Yes, we also have children black belts.

Rick


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

granfire said:


> They earned the rank as kid and returned as adult?



Say an adult who started as an adult and one of the belts before black belt is the poom belt in the school's curriculum.



granfire said:


> Not seeing  big problem here, considering Puuni seems to think it's a lesser belt.



I never said or even inferred that a poom belt is a lesser belt. You are reading too much into it.


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## Gemini (Apr 19, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Why would an adult in a KKW school wear a poom belt?  As a probationary BB rank?


Yes. I seldom see schools use the poom/black belt for their intended purpose. Many schools use the poom belt as a probationary (for lack of a better word) black belt or 1 geup and a full black belt for dan holders regardless of age.


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## mastercole (Apr 19, 2012)

For a person who wears a v-neck dobok which is based on Won, Bang, Gak, practices Poomsae which is based on Won, Bang, Gak, it is philosophically incorrect to have adults wear Poom belts, and for children to wear black belts.  But anything goes in USA, and usually due to lack of understanding how integrated the Won, Bang, Gak theory is into every aspect of Taekwondo.

The official KTA/Kukkiwon belt groupings are three. Geup, Poom and Dan in accord with the samilshingo idea of Won, Bang and Gak.

The official belt colors of the KTA, and eventually the Kukkiwon were the colors of the 5 basic elements. White, Yellow, Blue, Red and Black.

Yellow, Blue and Red are the colors found in the Samtaegeuk symbol of Korea and is from the same Samilshingo idea of Won, Bang and Gak (heaven, earth and human)

White and Black represent the Um Yang (Yin Yang) and for Taekwondoin, represents the idea of "beginning/completion.

Wearing the Poom belt upside down, according to the Won, Bang Gak theory it is based on, is like wearing dobok pants in place of the top, wearing the top for pants, and tying the belt from the top of your head to your crotch.


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## mastercole (Apr 19, 2012)

Oh, White Belt is "no geup"

The three color belts, Yellow, Blue and Red are divided into 3 geups based on won, bang, gak. Those geups are:

Yellow 9, 8 and 7.
Blue 6, 5, and 4
Red 3, 2 and 1

All conform to the won, bang, gak.  Remember, the Hanbok is based on won,bang, gak. The dobok is from the Hanbok.

The won, bang, gak is likely what the new Dan designation are that we saw in the new WTF Poomsae uniforms, and likely the new Kukkiwon Poomsae uniform, where you had Dan divided as follows:

1,2,and 3 - master
4,5, and 6 - instructor master
7, 8 and 9 - grandmaster

Poom is separate. 1-4


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## granfire (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> Say an adult who started as an adult and one of the belts before black belt is the poom belt in the school's curriculum.


if it's what the school does, why bother question?




> I never said or even inferred that a poom belt is a lesser belt. You are reading too much into it.



No, you implied, time and time again.
Implying that the wearer cannot possibly have earned a true BB you are implying that the Poom is of lesser rank than a BB.

And I still don't get the question.

It's a strip of fabric, designed to keep the jacket closed and the pants up.

There is no single formula about the color if said cloth, and yes, there are more games in town than the KKW.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

granfire said:


> if it's what the school does, why bother question?



People let children wear black belts. It's only fair to ask the reverse, adults wearing poom belts.




granfire said:


> No, you implied, time and time again. Implying that the wearer cannot possibly have earned a true BB you are implying that the Poom is of lesser rank than a BB.



An adult wearing a poom belt generally means in the US that they are not at the black belt level. Generally I when I see adults wearing poom belts it is for ranks such as senior red or bodan level, not dan level. 




granfire said:


> IAnd I still don't get the question.



Others understand the question, looking at their responses. 



granfire said:


> It's a strip of fabric, designed to keep the jacket closed and the pants up. There is no single formula about the color if said cloth, and yes, there are more games in town than the KKW.



If that is how it is at your school, then ok.


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## mastercole (Apr 19, 2012)

granfire said:


> It's a strip of fabric, designed to keep the jacket closed and the pants up.
> 
> There is no single formula about the color if said cloth, and yes, there are more games in town than the KKW.



Wrong, there is a single formula about the color(s) of said cloth. See my post above.  Kukkiwon would be the game in question, since they are the one's who began using the Poom belt.


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## puunui (Apr 19, 2012)

Also, does it matter which color is up and which color is down when wearing a poom belt?


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## ETinCYQX (Apr 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> Also, does it matter which color is up and which color is down when wearing a poom belt?



Here the rule is black down, red up. Not sure if that's just us or if that's standard.


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## Spookey (Apr 19, 2012)

1. In our dojang, the poom belt is used for poom dan holders (those persons who have satisfied the physical requirements for black belt, but have not yet reached a necessary age of maturity)only.

 2. The red is always worn on top, as the students "Black Belt Maturity" has not yet overtaken the caution of the red warning. 

3. All adult Dan holders wear Black Belts as a visual indicator between Poom and Dan Ranks.

4. Senior red belts were red belts with stripes to indicate the "senior status"

Personally, I believe there is no uniformity outside of organizations (and only limited uniformity within organizations, at the dojang level). Also, I believe independent schools are free to be independent, but should clearly state that so as to not add to the confusion. 

One tree grew many branches, spread her seeds, and created a forest.

TAE-KWON!
Bateman


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 20, 2012)

what does a poom belt look like?


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## mastercole (Apr 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> Also, does it matter which color is up and which color is down when wearing a poom belt?



According to Kukkiwon, yes.  When wearing the poom v-neck dobok, the black side of the poom belt always is on top. This matches the collar of the poom v-neck dobok which also has the black side on top. The WTF appears to be changing this however with the new competition Poomsae "poom" Y-neck uniform. However it will remain the same for the poom v-neck dobok.

The red and black combination comes from the 5 colors of the Oh-haeng or 5 elements. The black represents the winter, the death of emotion (ignorance) or emptiness. Red is like the child, Fire, summer, trust and envy to still overcome.

Dan and Poom rank are separate in that Poom is for children who continue on after geup training. Adults can not be ranked as "Poom."   Dan is for adults who continue on after geup. Children can not be ranked as "Dan."

Poom means "grade" as far as poom jung is concerned.  Dan means "step" as far as Dan jung is concerned.

Poom is an old way for the Korean court to line up officials by grade or rank. Dan is from the Japanese game of GO.


Here is a photo of children training in Korea from the Kukkiwon Magazing "Taekwondo People"







[/IMG]


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## Gemini (Apr 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> Also, does it matter which color is up and which color is down when wearing a poom belt?


Black is always on top.


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## terryl965 (Apr 20, 2012)

Well here is the right answer from me, a poom belt is not a probationary black belt it is a person 14 and under that has been given a black belt. It was never intended to be a probationary belt. All my 14 and under wears a poom belt in class but for competition they have a solid Black Belt, I was ask a few years ago by both AAU and USAT to have my BB no matter what there age was to have a solid BB for competition so I did it. Now once my student hit 15 or are that age when testing for there BB it is a solid Black Belt only. Now I use the Red with a center black stripe as there probationary BB for 3 months and no I do not have my poom wear that poom uniform.


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## terryl965 (Apr 20, 2012)

Spookey said:


> 1. In our dojang, the poom belt is used for poom dan holders (those persons who have satisfied the physical requirements for black belt, but have not yet reached a necessary age of maturity)only.
> 
> 2. The red is always worn on top, as the students "Black Belt Maturity" has not yet overtaken the caution of the red warning.
> 
> ...



Spookey sorry but poom belt have always been black on top. So we should all respect the KKW enough to make sure that is adhere too.


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## dancingalone (Apr 20, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Spookey sorry but poom belt have always been black on top. So we should all respect the KKW enough to make sure that is adhere too.



I don't think Spookey is KKW...


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## Archtkd (Apr 20, 2012)

puunui said:


> Also, does it matter which color is up and which color is down when wearing a poom belt?



Black is on top in our dojang, but as I mentioned earlier the poom belt in our dojang represents 1st geup for both adults and youth (all those under 15. We differentiate Poom holders (blackbelts under 15) and dan holders by the color on their uniform collar. i.e, all poom and dan holders were solid black belts, but adults dan doboks have solid black collar and junior have a poom collar. 

I'm thinking of changing this, so that all my 1st geups will now have red belts with a black tip, poom holders poom belts and uniforms, and dan holders will have black belts with black collars on the doboks.


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## d1jinx (Apr 20, 2012)

i remember when we were first introduced to the red/black belt back around 1990. At that school it became first guep and is still that way today. Several other schools still do the same that i trained at over the years. They are all KKW schools. Black belts regardless of age wear a black belt.

Now when attending a USAT or AAU tourn, if its local, they wear the same belt for thier rank, but at regionals or nationals they wear a red belt for first guep and black belt for black belt. age doesnt matter.

Also, we have never used a poom uniform.


Now i may be mistaken, but i dont ever remember the actual COLORS of the belt being a KKW requirement. I know they always issued a Poom cert for children and today its red/black certificate. but the actual colors were never really specified by KKW in the past. KKW never really seemed to focus onthe geups and left that alone. Thier focus was on Black Belts. I know the WTF came out with the competition brackets color belts.

but either way, I know in house we will stick with what we have and when participating in a sanctioned event we will meet the requirements. But thats not to say it wont change or cant be changed. I have often considered revising the belt colors since we have more of the "rainbow" effect, with a Brown, purple and orange, that arent the traditional colors. I was just NEVER fond of TIPS/STRIPES or the LOW/HIGH deal. A new belt seems more of an acheivement than a peice of tape.


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## mastercole (Apr 20, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Spookey sorry but poom belt have always been black on top. So we should all respect the KKW enough to make sure that is adhere too.



Really?  If practitioners are not part of Kukkiwon, why should they adhere to it?


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## mastercole (Apr 20, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I don't think Spookey is KKW...



I think he is. Taekwondo Oh Do Kwan is, and spooky is part of that. Oh Do Kwan's president HAN Myung Hak told me he was Kukkiwon technical advisor. Past Oh Do Kwan president BAEK Joon Ki, who sits on the Kukkiwon High Dan test committee said there has been a resurgence of Oh Do Kwan members applying through the Oh Do Kwan for Kukkiwon Dan.


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## dancingalone (Apr 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think he is. Taekwondo Oh Do Kwan is, and spooky is part of that. Oh Do Kwan's president HAN Myung Hak told me he was Kukkiwon technical advisor. Past Oh Do Kwan president BAEK Joon Ki, who sits on the Kukkiwon High Dan test committee said there has been a resurgence of Oh Do Kwan members applying through the Oh Do Kwan for Kukkiwon Dan.



<shrugs>  That's certainly one way of looking at it.  

I dimly recall reading some posts from Spookey in the past that makes me think he's more aligned with ITF style TKD.


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## mastercole (Apr 20, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> i remember when we were first introduced to the red/black belt back around 1990. At that school it became first guep and is still that way today. Several other schools still do the same that i trained at over the years. They are all KKW schools. Black belts regardless of age wear a black belt.
> 
> Now when attending a USAT or AAU tourn, if its local, they wear the same belt for thier rank, but at regionals or nationals they wear a red belt for first guep and black belt for black belt. age doesnt matter.
> 
> ...



Right, you don't remember Kukkiwon having belt color requirements because their never was any. Kukkiwon does not require any of it's members to do anything in particular in their dojangs, instructors are free to do what they like. They do have a standard though, and they "recommend" that standard, but, that is up to the instructor.

The standard color belt scheme is based on the Ohhaeng 5 elements colors; white, yellow, blue, red and black. I explained this in a lot of detail in a post from yesterday.


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## d1jinx (Apr 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Right, you don't remember Kukkiwon having belt color requirements because their never was any. Kukkiwon does not require any of it's members to do anything in particular in their dojangs, instructors are free to do what they like. They do have a standard though, and they "recommend" that standard, but, that is up to the instructor.
> 
> The standard color belt scheme is based on the Ohhaeng 5 elements colors; white, yellow, blue, red and black. I explained this in a lot of detail in a post from yesterday.



right, thats how i remember it. Not disputing it. Just explaining how our school came to be using the Poom belt as 1st geup. proir to that it was a piece of tape. Each of those colors you mentioned had a LOW/HIGH. high was signified by a peice of tape. Schools began adding the off colors to remove the low/high which gave 10 belt colors. now ofcourse I dont have PINK or CAMO!!!!! never will.

But i have thought about going back to a RED belt with A Black tip for 1st Guep. today it is easy to find belts made like this wear as back in the 80s and 90s not so much.

Also, my comment was also towards not seeing the KKW saying Juniors/Pooms had to wear the red/black belt. Someone mentioned being KKW and doing the way they say.  I know thats how they do it in Korea and some schools here in the US, but I didnt think it was an actual BELT color reqirement. if it is, then it will be re-considered. I have no problems with changing anything.


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## mastercole (Apr 20, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> <shrugs>  That's certainly one way of looking at it.
> 
> I dimly recall reading some posts from Spookey in the past that makes me think he's more aligned with ITF style TKD.



Maybe he will tell us.


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## mastercole (Apr 20, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> right, thats how i remember it. Not disputing it. Just explaining how our school came to be using the Poom belt as 1st geup. proir to that it was a piece of tape. Each of those colors you mentioned had a LOW/HIGH. high was signified by a peice of tape. Schools began adding the off colors to remove the low/high which gave 10 belt colors. now ofcourse I dont have PINK or CAMO!!!!! never will.
> 
> But i have thought about going back to a RED belt with A Black tip for 1st Guep. today it is easy to find belts made like this wear as back in the 80s and 90s not so much.
> 
> Also, my comment was also towards not seeing the KKW saying Juniors/Pooms had to wear the red/black belt. Someone mentioned being KKW and doing the way they say.  I know thats how they do it in Korea and some schools here in the US, but I didnt think it was an actual BELT color reqirement. if it is, then it will be re-considered. I have no problems with changing anything.



I think people do what works best in their school, at least I do.  Scroll up if you like and read where I posted the detail of the official belt colors.


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## terryl965 (Apr 20, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Really? If practitioners are not part of Kukkiwon, why should they adhere to it?



I was talking about spookey which if memory serves me right is KKW. What each other does withen there own org is there business and I believe each should respect there org to do as it has ask.


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## rlobrecht (Apr 20, 2012)

rlobrecht said:


> Our school (independent chang-hon system) uses poom as black belt candidate.  You've learned and tested on all the material for 1st Dan, however you haven't tested it all at once.  From that point until you test for black, you really learn nothing new.
> 
> Yes, we also have children black belts.



Our Poom belts wear red on top.

The Poom V-neck dobok is not allowed.

Rick


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## Archtkd (Apr 21, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> But i have thought about going back to a RED belt with A Black tip for 1st Guep. today it is easy to find belts made like this wear as back in the 80s and 90s not so much.


 I din't know they had red belts with a black tip. Nice to know because I'm thinking of just doing what you are thinking of doing.


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## d1jinx (Apr 21, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I din't know they had red belts with a black tip. Nice to know because I'm thinking of just doing what you are thinking of doing.



sorry if i was misleading.  I ment, Red belts with black stripes down the middle.  Also, i have seen red belts that had the last 1 or 2 inches black, but I think they were custom made.  Thats what i was thinking of doing, the last inch or 2 of the belt a black belt tip.


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## Dan Hobson (Apr 30, 2012)

I think it's wrong to see children wearing black belts, although, once they reach (junior) brown, to keep them from waiting for years until they're old enough to progress any further (belt-wise), I suppose it's alright to see them wearing provisional black belts which are brown and black to show they have reached Shodan Ho, but even then, I'm not too sure. As for adults wearing poom belts, I don't see anything wrong with that, as long as it's not like a 20 year old who is a Judan or something. As long as it's proportional and they have obviously learned the necessary skills, I think it's fine.


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## sfs982000 (May 1, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Why would an adult in a KKW school wear a poom belt? As a probationary BB rank?
> 
> I have seen other schools, like ATA, use a red/black belt, but that represents an official rank in their system and is not related to age.
> 
> Edit: Just saw the other posts above... Ignore my question.



I study at an ATA school and we use the poom belt for our recommended 1st Dan black belt grade (which is a fancy way of saying probationary black belt), it's applicable to everyone regardless of age.


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## dancingalone (May 1, 2012)

sfs982000 said:


> I study at an ATA school and we use the poom belt for our recommended 1st Dan black belt grade (which is a fancy way of saying probationary black belt), it's applicable to everyone regardless of age.




Yes, sir, that's the way ATA schools do it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> There has been a lot of discussion about the appropriateness of children wearing black belts. But what about adults who wear poom belts? How common is that, how advisable is that? For those who think adults wearing poom belts is ok, do you or your instructor also allow children to wear black belts?


Some of the schools in my area use a pum belt with the red on top for first geub, flipping it over so that the black is on top for dan-bo.  I don't really have an opinion on it; if it works within a school, then as far as I'm concerned, its fine.


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