# Knee Dammage???



## thedan (Jan 21, 2007)

This subject came up over on Kenpo Talk, and I thought it would be best to ask some people who might know. Can studying Taiji without ongoing hands on instruction by a qualified teacher dammage knees? Or Feet?

Here's a link to the thread:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3915

Pretty respectful bunch if you want to post a reply there as well. I'll ask the Mods if they can Bot this, too.

Thanks for any info.
Dan C


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## grydth (Jan 21, 2007)

The potential for knee damage is definitely there, especially if you are in one of the better schools that offers self defense applications. 

There is also one transition step in the Cheng Man Ching form that our teacher said had the potential for blowing out a knee - happily the proposed change I was speaking about in the other thread eliminates this step.

Having seen untold numbers of knee injuries in my line of work, I'd say any physical activity carries a risk - no matter what you are doing, you need to be alert, warmed up and not taking on activity your body can't handle.

By the way, I did Kenpo when I was young (circa the Civil War), and credit it with saving my life.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 21, 2007)

thedan said:


> This subject came up over on Kenpo Talk, and I thought it would be best to ask some people who might know. Can studying Taiji without ongoing hands on instruction by a qualified teacher dammage knees? Or Feet?
> 
> Here's a link to the thread:
> 
> ...


 
I read through that and in was pretty interesting.

I have trained CMA for 15 years, in that I have trained mostly Yang style a bit of Chen and to a lesser degree Wu with a touch of Cheng Manching (CMC), but for the most part the last 12 I have studied Traditional Yang style Tai Chi. 

Your questions 

Can studying Taiji without ongoing hands on instruction by a qualified teacher damage knees? Or Feet?

Tai chi without a qualified instructor can do a lot of things; mainly teach you tai chi incorrectly, which can cause you trouble. Misinterpretation of instructions you may get from a book or video can be a bad thing. I have talked to several Tai Chi beginners that try and keep their posture way to upright because they misinterpreted keep your spine straight with keeping your head straight up. When in reality it is keep your spine straight, which in many postures means you are leaning. But you did not ask about the back

 I have not heard of foot damage in Tai chi, but that does not mean it does not occur, and I have no doubt it is possible. As for knee damage, if in a stance you let your knee go past your toes you are likely going to hurt your knee. And a qualified instructor would see this and tell you to stop. Also a qualified instructor would have shown you the correct stance in the first place.  

Also just to note, different styles turn the feet differently, for example CMC is big on turning on the toes traditional Yang turns on both the toes and the heel depending on the posture and or the form


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## Flying Crane (Jan 22, 2007)

I posted a reply over in Kenpotalk, and tought I'd bring it over here as well, hope it helps.

Chen style in particular has been known to contribute to knee problems. The stances are low, and if you aren't sure you are doing them correctly they can get injured. I had a sore patellar ligament in my knee for almost a year because of it. It finally got better, but was a real problem during that time.

In addition, Chen issues Fajing, or release of energy. It manifests in various ways, including stomping the ground. But this isn't simply "stomping the ground". There is more to it than that. If this is done incorrectly it can also cause problems. In addition to joint problems, I have heard that the shock can travel into the head and sort of scramble your brain, over a long period of time.

If you try to do some complex breathing methods while practicing your tai chi, you can also hurt yourself if you are doing it wrong. You don't necessarily need to do complex breathing methods in Tai Chi. Often, natural breathing works very well, and the complex methods that can take you to a higher level should only be done with proper instruction.

Some lineages of Chen, such as Feng Zhi Xiang in Beijing has made changes to the system and softened the stances and the stampings in order to counter these problems. I believe his method is now know as Huan Yin Chen Tai Chi, which I believe is something like Primordial Energy, or something. My understanding of it is far from perfect, but my sifu is a student of Master Feng.

So if you just try to mimick a video, yes it is possible to do something that can hurt you. Perhaps this is less possible with some of the Yang sets that have been simplified and standardized for the masses. But overall, this gets back to video training: it isn't a good idea, your results will be minimal, and you can actually hurt yourself if you are doing it wrong. Not guaranteed, but definitely possible.

If you try to do the complex breathing based on a video instruction or vague description that you have heard somewhere, you will probably get it wrong and that could hurt you.

So the short answer is: Yes, if done incorrectly, Tai Chi can hurt you. Some simplified methods have much less chance of that, but it is always possible to get burned by something you don't understand.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 22, 2007)

I know this doesnt really answer that question but it is just general advise. 

Go to a doctor and get everything checked out. A qualified teacher is always the best way to go. Dont mess around with your knees they are strong joints but it doesnt take much to mess them up (speaking from experience). In any form of MA i recommend wearing a knee brace (nothing extensive one of those neoprene ones that slides on will work) this will keep you knees tight and they keep heat in so it will keep the joints plyable (sp). I do this and it helps. Thought id share.

B


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## thedan (Jan 26, 2007)

Thanks for the replies. 

So, looks like it can, but not necessarily will cause dammage to knees, probably not to feet. Good to know.

Dan C


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