# Keeping the Form



## Josh (Jun 30, 2003)

Yea. Um, where do I start. Oh, allright, yeah. I understand that the form is a straight spine, but my question is, how do you keep it? I mean, shouldn't you breathe with it? And, how does the Form apply to fighting? I mean, I know that you can disrupt the other people's form, but how would you keep yours? Thanks.


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## FruitLoopy (Jun 30, 2003)

> Yea. Um, where do I start. Oh, allright, yeah. I understand that the form is a straight spine, but my question is, how do you keep it? I mean, shouldn't you breathe with it? And, how does the Form apply to fighting?



Josh,

How do you walk? How do you breathe when you walk? Form is being natural. Don't try to make things too complicated.  



:asian: 

Troy


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## Josh (Jun 30, 2003)

Hey Troy, thanks a lot. That's good stuff. Yeah, I'm just really trying to GET IT. Understand how everything must be natural.


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## Rommel (Jul 1, 2003)

You really need an experienced teacher guiding you and helping you through various drills. They can point out when you are not keeping the form until it becomes completely natural. Keeping the form is a must in fighting because any deviation from that straight spine would easily mean a loss of balance and the inability to pick up all the information you need in battle. It also restricts your movement when you break your form and reduces the ability of your nervous system to react appropriately and effectively.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 1, 2003)

So I gather that the term "form" is your physical attitude and if that is so, you need a third point of veiw. Learn to kneel when moving forward and to squat in reverse, keep your butt in, and your head up. Your third point of veiw can alert you as to when you did not.


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## Rich_ (Jul 1, 2003)

Josh: It's really something that has to be physically learned; academic understanding will do you no good. It's like reading books on basketball, they won't help you shoot hoops.


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## arnisador (Jul 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich_ _
> *Josh: It's really something that has to be physically learned; academic understanding will do you no good. It's like reading books on basketball, they won't help you shoot hoops. *



Well, surely they'd _help_--but for most things like this one needs a hands-on instructor first and foremost.


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## jellyman (Jul 1, 2003)

I agree that without an instructor it's very hard to get the full benefit, especially if you are somewhat inexperienced generally speaking.

But, that said, it can't hurt to talk about it.



> I understand that the form is a straight spine, but my question is, how do you keep it?



Movement. If part of you misaligns or threatens to, reallign the rest of you.



> I mean, shouldn't you breathe with it?



Don't understand that one.



> And, how does the Form apply to fighting?



Rommel is correct about the balance implications. I would also add then when you have form, you  can generate power in your movements, and you can move in any direction.

So movement and form facilitate each other. Relaxation gives you sensitivity so you know where to move, and breath work helps you relax (and think in my case).

Also, there are 2 forms - ball (rolling) and stick. The spine is straight in both, ie not twisted.

Both types of form have standing and grounded applications.

This won't help you much until you do the work with a good instructor/training partner, but maybe with that you'll get something out of this.


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## Josh (Jul 1, 2003)

Sorry. About the breathing thing, I was just wondering if you should be breathing while keeping the form. And now I know. Well thanks folks.


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## Kingston (Jul 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jellyman _
> *Also, there are 2 forms - ball (rolling) and stick. The spine is straight in both, ie not twisted.*



hmm iv never heard of a "stick" like form....i remember vlad talking about the ball and a chain....for example if you push a chain, the part you touch moves and the other links stay relativly in the same spot they where before, yet everything is still connected. Its a solid bond between the links, but each link can move seperatly (my understanding of it at least)

The ball is like when you push a ball on the floor, the whole thing moves as one. you push it one way it moves the other, you push it the other way it moves back again. All at the same time. (again just my understanding)

Thats the most recent metaphor for the body forms iv heard from Vlad (the only ones accualy)....i think i can see how a stick could work the same way.

Opinions?


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## Rich_ (Jul 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Well, surely they'd help--but for most things like this one needs a hands-on instructor first and foremost. *



If you've never shot a hoop in your life, reading advice will have a negligible benefit, I think. At least, in terms of time spent that could otherwise be spent shooting hoops.  

But yes, hands-on instruction and lots of practice. That's the way to go.


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## jellyman (Jul 2, 2003)

Kingston

Sounds like 2 aspects of the same thing. I've heard V say stick, but the chain certainly applies when escaping (I've also heard that described as wave movement). I suppose you could look at the stick as a chain at rest.


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## jellyman (Jul 3, 2003)

VV talked to me yesterday about this very thread. The stick is important to understand in terms of what it can do for you, and is useful as a reference point, but one shoudln't obssess about it. Chain work is essebtially movement of one body part independently of the others, for escape or attack, and stick work has the whole body moving as a unit. Neither aspect exists in isolation, but are always intermeshed. At the end of the day, the metaphors can just get in the way, and you should do what's natural and appropriate, but of course one must rediscover what is natural and appropriate through practice.


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## MartialArtsGuy (Jul 3, 2003)

Jellyman

Vlad reads these forums?


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## Rommel (Jul 3, 2003)

He definitely does especially the RMA forum. I've heard him mention things on this board. This is his baby afterall and we are his loyal fans so trolls beware.


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## jellyman (Jul 3, 2003)

He told me someone asked him about it. Either way, he's kept informed.


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## MartialArtsGuy (Jul 3, 2003)

Well that is good. It probably helps to keep him in touch with how the people are developing who are far away. It's a good way to learn the concerns, questions, and accomplishments of people new to systema who train away from Toronto. 

I know if I were a prominent figure in the martial arts, id be on here reading as well. To me it would give me a way to connect to an extended family of sorts.


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## arnisador (Jul 4, 2003)

We welcome everyone!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Klondike93 (Jul 4, 2003)

Hi Vlad  :wavey:   

Oh yeah, great discussion so far.


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## NYCRonin (Jul 4, 2003)

Form in Systema is an ellusive topic to discuss - so much easier to see and do. It is 'liquid' in comparison to so many other martial methods - at least the ones I have studied prior to this.
The practitioner seems clumsy at one moment the perfectly balanced the next. During 'quiet work' the movements are so very small (hence the form seems to be 'nothing special') that, to an onlooker, the defender might appear to be doing nothing at all but walking - yet the attacker is 'checkmated'.
If there is one constant, it is the spinal alignment that was mentioned earier by jellyman - even that is not sacred, instead it can be flexable then recaptured - then it changes again.
It seems so very complex in writing but, in practice; once you get used to it - you wonder how you ever 'moved' without form before.
Ah, you just gotta 'do the work' and you understand all the cryptic writing as clear as day.


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