# Are many Chinese masters especially "cagey"?



## geezer (Jun 13, 2010)

OK, this topic is going to sound_ soooo politically incorrect._ But, here goes anyway, _"Are old-school Chinese masters especially 'cagey' and perhaps even deceitful in their teaching methods?"_ This question was voiced to me by an old friend and, in spite of it's "incorrectness", probably should be addressed openly and frankly. We had been talking about our experiences with some older generation Cantonese masters whose teaching practices and presentation of their art did not align well with our Western concepts of ethics. Now before I go on, let me say that I know of a great many non-Asian martial-arts instructors guilty of far worse. Some are bullies, lies, cheats and outright frauds. So I don't intend this as an anti-Asian rant. Heaven forbid. It's just that we noticed that certain kinds of negative practices and attitudes seemed _peculiar_ to these gentlemen from the Hong Kong area.

Here are some examples:

These guys did not teach equally to all students regardless of ethnicity. And even within the same group, there was blatant favoritism and playing one  potential top student off against another usually for the master's benefit (either getting money, more branch schools and students, advertising or other labor in return).

Teaching would begin at a fast pace, but as the years went by, advanced knowledge would be held back jealously and then grudgingly doled out dop by drop at exorbitant prices... I mean _many thousands of dollars_ just to learn a few movements of a "secret" advanced form.

Intentionally teaching or publishing instructional material with deliberate errors and omissions. For example, one of these men published a book on a famous martial form or set, paying to use another well known master's name as the main author (to slyly stay in the background) and then deliberately altered a couple of sequences to, as he told us, "make idiots" of all those who didn't learn the correct version _from him._

This same Master also came into possession of some very rare old film footage of the last Great-Grandmaster of this art, now long deceased. He used cut and altered sequences of the footage to promote his versions of the art, then destroyed the original film! 

Now if this where just one unethical individual, I would not be bringing up this issue. But, in numerous conversations, I've heard similar stories involving  other individuals coming from the same milieu. And, then on the other hand, I've met individuals from the same region who are not at all like this. I like to think that I was just unlucky in my experiences, and that I've heard so many stories like this just because bad news and gossip travels faster than good news. Any thoughts?


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## David43515 (Jun 14, 2010)

I`ve heard alot of stories in the past, but I don`t know how much truth there is to them. ALOT of the guys teaching TCMA didn`t have the best education, and Kung Fu was all they had. Teach to much and there`s nothing left to sell.


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 14, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I`ve heard alot of stories in the past, but I don`t know how much truth there is to them. ALOT of the guys teaching TCMA didn`t have the best education, and Kung Fu was all they had. *Teach to much and there`s nothing left to sell*.



Depends how you are trying to make money:
If you are trying to sell the knowledge, then this is true.
If you are trying to make money by being a great teacher who can efficiently train new members, then this is not true because new members will find their way to your door, and those who learn tend to stick around longer.


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## Rabu (Jun 14, 2010)

Yes.

Is there really a different answer?

The fundamental mistake made when reviewing 'the old masters' and their works, is making them out to be more than they were.

They were human. They were mortal. They were flawed.

As are we all.

Even today, can anyone say they are as engaged in training someone they do not like vs someone they enjoy the company of? I bet you would tolerate an awful lot of craptastic behavior on the part of a student in order to pay the bills.  Especially if there was no alternative.  

All you describe is human behavior, in all its heavenly glory!

As for the out and out fraudulent behavior? Not all people suck as much as described. Regardless of the skill of the teacher, if they lack moral fiber, I simply would turn my back upon them and find a teacher with better character. Isnt that the only way to drive the desired behavior?  As with all humans, you can find someone who has something to offer of value who will share with you.  Keep looking and best of luck.

Regards,

Rob


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## geezer (Jun 14, 2010)

Rabu said:


> The fundamental mistake made when reviewing 'the old masters' and their works, is making them out to be more than they were.
> 
> They were human... They were flawed... As are we all.



True. And, ironically some of the worst SOBs in the crowd were among the most skilled. Skill and morality do not always go hand in hand.



Rabu said:


> Regardless of the skill of the teacher, if they lack moral fiber, I simply would turn my back upon them and find a teacher with better character. Isnt that the only way to drive the desired behavior?  As with all humans, you can find someone who has something to offer of value who will share with you.



Yeah, I moved on and found a better teacher, whose a decent, moral human being too. But Man! The old Chinese guy I knew... lying, cheating SOB that he was... was _really_ good. Some people run down his kung fu, but _that_ was never the problem.


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## David43515 (Jun 14, 2010)

David43515 said:


> I`ve heard alot of stories in the past, but I don`t know how much truth there is to them. ALOT of the guys teaching TCMA didn`t have the best education, and Kung Fu was all they had. Teach to much and there`s nothing left to sell.


 
When I said that Kung Fu was all they had I didn`t just mean in the business sense. Alot of them can be very prideful concerning thier reputation as a tough guy because that reputation is all they really have.  Take guys like Chan Tai Shan or Lau Bun. You`d be crazy to mess with them. Thier Kung Fu was amazing. 

But they died pretty much pennyless and alone far away from home. Word is both held alot back or taught fluff to the gullable because they hated the idea of someone being as good as they were. Just a personality flaw. They taught because it was a way to make a living. Yip Man hated the fact that he had to teach MA for a living, so he took a job teaching basics to the Hong Kong Resturaunt Workers Union, but held back alot for his private students.


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## K-man (Jun 14, 2010)

Is it any different to the Japanese teaching karate to Westerners after the war?
What I was taught as 'karate' 30 odd years ago bears no resemblance to what I understand now.  Yet I still see almost all the schools still teaching the same stuff we learnt all those years ago, mainly because the principals of the schools have never looked outside their system.  What I found in Okinawa recently was a great willingness to share the knowledge.
So, yes, I can believe that, in the past, many masters may have held back on the knowledge they imparted, but it doesn't excuse 'fraud'.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 15, 2010)

No more cagey than any other MA teacher can be


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## East Winds (Jun 16, 2010)

In my experience (over 20 years) in the Chinese Internal Arts, I have found that if you commit to a teacher he will willingly teach you everything. However if you expect to learn the whole system in a year, or flit about from teacher to teacher or system to system....... forget it!!!!!

Having said that, I've come across "masters" who knew nothing but pretended they did, but as a beginner, it's difficult to know when you are being conned.

Very best wishes


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## mograph (Jun 17, 2010)

Some are, some aren't. Being a martial arts teacher doesn't confer any more or less wisdom on a person. He could be a sage, a liar, a businessman, a mystic, a drunk, or just some poor schlub trying to make a living, whether old or young, Chinese, Japanese or Western.

It's when we assume that they're infallible that the trouble starts, and we accept their words without reservation because we're looking for a father figure, or just some kind of certainty in a Confucian-based master-student system. I think we should treat MA teachers as any other teacher and determine if their method is right for us. 

As adults, even beginners, we have the ability to discern good teachers in a reasonable amount of time, and we should use that ability. Now that I've left my old club, I have more respect for the students who dropped out of class. It wasn't because they were lazy (which I thought at the time), but because the club and what it was teaching wasn't right for them.

I hope that makes sense ...


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## Domino (May 6, 2011)

IMO it can be a combination of a few things. Money, reputation etc etc
Some people will be rightly 'protective' of their arts and its secrets, stories of false teaching could make minds curious.


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## ggg214 (May 8, 2011)

it's normal, in CMA. i don't know how it is in other martial art!
when i am  a teacher(not now), i will not teach everyone everything in the style, unless this one is accepted as my disciple. 
talking about the key of the style, i think money is not such an important thing to be considered.


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## Eric_H (May 12, 2011)

You can't spend your whole life studying strategy and not be a cagey MF'er at the end. Well, unless you're kinda slow


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## Neijia (Mar 24, 2012)

Cultural differences.

I grew up within a Chinese community and lived in China.  Here is what is going on.  They teach the BS and the good stuff.  The good secret stuff is in front of your eyes on the first day.  Those who are smart enough find it because they practice it and sift through it.  Those too stupid have to pay more money for huge obvious hints.  If you still don't get it...too bad.  Thats how they see it.  They are sifting through BS students just as you are sifting through BS information.  When you know BS for BS he knows you are quality and will break his back to entrust his system to you.

Are Chinese masters deceitful and evil?  No...students are just stupid and lazy.  It takes ten years to test a student, no exceptions in the modern world.  When you say, "I paid you so you owe me"  He will teach you how to get beat up and nothing more.  Don't like it?  Too bad, there is a method to the madness.  If you can't tell garbage from gold when its in front of your face, how will you develop it further?  You can't.  You will just cover gold in garbage because you are lazy and stupid.  You don't pass something precious entrusted for thousands of years to some idiot that doesn't know what is garbage and what is gold.


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## Tames D (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Cultural differences.
> 
> I grew up within a Chinese community and lived in China.  Here is what is going on.  They teach the BS and the good stuff.  The good secret stuff is in front of your eyes on the first day.  Those who are smart enough find it because they practice it and sift through it.  Those too stupid have to pay more money for huge obvious hints.  If you still don't get it...too bad.  Thats how they see it.  They are sifting through BS students just as you are sifting through BS information.  When you know BS for BS he knows you are quality and will break his back to entrust his system to you.
> 
> Are Chinese masters deceitful and evil?  No...students are just stupid and lazy.  It takes ten years to test a student, no exceptions in the modern world.  When you say, "I paid you so you owe me"  He will teach you how to get beat up and nothing more.  Don't like it?  Too bad, there is a method to the madness.  If you can't tell garbage from gold when its in front of your face, how will you develop it further?  You can't.  You will just cover gold in garbage because you are lazy and stupid.  You don't pass something precious entrusted for thousands of years to some idiot that doesn't know what is garbage and what is gold.



Your posting style seems very familar. Have you been here under another name recently?


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## oaktree (Mar 25, 2012)

Neijia are you the stupid or lazy one or
Are you the smart one?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Your posting style seems very familar. Have you been here under another name recently?



You know, that is what I was thinking


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Neijia are you the stupid or lazy one or
> Are you the smart one?



Based on the post this is actually a very good and rather valid question.

And you asked it so much nicer than I would have too


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## Neijia (Mar 25, 2012)

I am the stupid one.  I have not been lazy, over time I have come to understand that most of the time I have been ignorant.  Please take what I saw with thick skin.  Reality can come as a slap in the face.  The majority of secrets are in front of you the whole time.  What I said about how Chinese teachers work is absolutely the truth.  They aren't evil, its a question of time/effort and economy of action.  I am not a genius, I have worked hard over time and people have told me things that either made me laugh out loud or came as a slap in the face, often they came through fights I have had.  When I say that I walked through black belts I felt no pride at the time, but disappointment.  The hard fights I have had and lost taught me the most.  Those are my victories.  Anyone along the way will understand this.

I have never posted here before and although I come across abrasively I am telling the truth, over time you will understand that I am actually compassionate and I want you to develop quickly without wasting time.


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## Tames D (Mar 25, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> You know, that is what I was thinking



That's because we think alike. You're my brother from another mother, :ultracool


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2012)

Tames D said:


> That's because we think alike. You're my brother from another mother, :ultracool



Scary&#8230;isn&#8217;t it :EG:


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## Neijia (Mar 26, 2012)

I really don't know how martial artists have such thin skin.  I don't mind at all that I've been stupid and ignorant.  It seems that most people would rather have someone be "nice" to them than tell them the truth.  Too bad.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> I really don't know how martial artists have such thin skin.  I don't mind at all that I've been stupid and ignorant.  It seems that most people would rather have someone be "nice" to them than tell them the truth.  Too bad.



Intersting take but wrong

Nice, not nice, does not matter.....however the truth in most of your posts is based at best on opinion and in many of those cases there is more than ample proof to prove your opinion wrong... so it appears that it is both your attitude and opinion (not truth) that are at issue. But of course it is always easier to blame others isn't it

Have a nice day


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## Neijia (Mar 26, 2012)

A cultural question was asked.  I answered it.  It not my opinion that Germans drink more beer than Saudis, that is a cultural difference.  Have you ever been on the inside tradition of a Chinese martial arts system?  Clearly not.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> A cultural question was asked.  I answered it.  It not my opinion that Germans drink more beer than Saudis, that is a cultural difference.  Have you ever been on the inside tradition of a Chinese martial arts system?  Clearly not.



*Looks at post, looks at who he is addressing, looks back at post*

:duh:
:spitcoffee:
:roflmao:
:roflmao:
:rofl:

Ok

No, ok. I'm ok. Really I am. 

No I'm not.

:lol2::s414:


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## oaktree (Mar 26, 2012)

Hi Neijia


> I really don't know how martial artists have such thin skin.


I personally don't take things to literally or personal on a public forum in which we use "handles" and our identities are confidential. However since we are on a public forum
 I will point out the difference of being blunt and being an a- hole which has nothing to do with thin or thick skin but a disregard for etiquette and respect.



> I don't mind at all that I've been stupid and ignorant



Clearly that makes the two of us. 


> It seems that most people would rather have someone be "nice" to them than tell them the truth



Most people don't listen to a- holes something about the *** part just puts people off. You don't have to be overly nice and if we knew each other perhaps we could understand your jaded view on things but we don't so we have to draw our conclusions based on your posts. Plenty of people here are blunt but they remain in control of their responses.

You are not the only person here who has knowledge or had teachers so maybe your elitiest attitiude would be better some place else? 
Just a thought.


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## Neijia (Mar 26, 2012)

So aside from personal attacks, no one has any reason why I am wrong?  Elitist?  Fine, yes I am in the minority and my vantage point is also in the minority.  As I supposed to feel bad about that?  The view is nice, you should come up here.  Look at it from their perspective.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> A cultural question was asked.  I answered it.  It not my opinion that Germans drink more beer than Saudis, that is a cultural difference.  Have you ever been on the inside tradition of a Chinese martial arts system?  Clearly not.



So explain to me what Germans and Saudis have to do withanything being discussed other than what I see as a poor attempt as subterfuge.

As for TCMA yup been inside TCMA with a real live old schoolsifu, for a while now also been inside Chineseculture with real live Chinese people too... and you are still spouting opinion...not fact. Andbeyond responding with insult, albeit poor ones, you have not answered any questionsput to you nor had any successful defenses to anything said that was counter toyour somewhat jaded opinion


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## Tames D (Mar 26, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Have you ever been on the inside tradition of a Chinese martial arts system?  *Clearly not*.



Are you addressing this question to Mr. Xue Sheng?  *MR. XUE SHENG?* All I can say is you have no clue!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 27, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Are you addressing this question to Mr. Xue Sheng?  *MR. XUE SHENG?* All I can say is you have no clue!





:lfao:


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## DaleDugas (Mar 28, 2012)

Neijia said:


> Cultural differences.
> 
> I grew up within a Chinese community and lived in China.  Here is what is going on.  They teach the BS and the good stuff.  The good secret stuff is in front of your eyes on the first day.  Those who are smart enough find it because they practice it and sift through it.  Those too stupid have to pay more money for huge obvious hints.  If you still don't get it...too bad.  Thats how they see it.  They are sifting through BS students just as you are sifting through BS information.  When you know BS for BS he knows you are quality and will break his back to entrust his system to you.
> 
> Are Chinese masters deceitful and evil?  No...students are just stupid and lazy.  It takes ten years to test a student, no exceptions in the modern world.  When you say, "I paid you so you owe me"  He will teach you how to get beat up and nothing more.  Don't like it?  Too bad, there is a method to the madness.  If you can't tell garbage from gold when its in front of your face, how will you develop it further?  You can't.  You will just cover gold in garbage because you are lazy and stupid.  You don't pass something precious entrusted for thousands of years to some idiot that doesn't know what is garbage and what is gold.



10 years to test a student?  BS

Who are you?

Where did you live?

What did you study?

You necroed a thread and added nothing but conjecture and BS.


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## Neijia (Apr 3, 2012)

DaleDugas said:


> 10 years to test a student?  BS
> 
> Who are you?
> 
> ...


   How adorable a "bro" from Boston who has no clue about Chinese culture.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 4, 2012)

Neijia said:


> How adorable a "bro" from Boston who has no clue about Chinese culture.



Wow there a shock...you didn't answer one single question.... just went right for the insults...since likely you got nothing to back up anything you have said nor is it likely you have none of the cultural background you alluded to either but then why waste my time.... you're leaving... it has been real and it has been nice but it has not been real nice so later....

And if I had to guess, and I don't, Dale knows more about it than you do...but then you are leaving soon so bye again.


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## The Last Legionary (Apr 4, 2012)

Neijia go bye bye.


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## DaleDugas (Apr 4, 2012)

another net ghost bites the dust.

Sad, when all you have to do is answer a few questions.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 5, 2012)




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