# TMA Applications in MMA?



## Saie (Jun 24, 2013)

Basically, I'm wondering if anyone's had experience in bringing their foundation of a Traditional Martial Art and somehow making it work with some tweaking to have basic, yet effective applications, such as short blocking or pulling.

Sparring with a few friends of mine who train in the same mma/jiu jitsu center, we had hyrbrid MMA gloves on and we were going at it full contact on the mat. My partner was getting tired, and I noticed his strikes were becoming a bit more heavy, but still powerful, yet I was exhausted as well and was not doing much better at this point. He over-extended his jab as I was coming in, and my initial reaction was a short left outer-circular block that threw him off balance to my left! I immediately followed it in with a right cross and a sloppy left round house (he mostly blocked it with his right arm up covering, as he attempted to slip any more strikes)

I had another successful application work for me by throwing a right outward block with my right hand at my opponent's left cross, immediately throwing a quick left vertical punch (only a bit stronger than a jab, tad bit quicker) at his nose while leaning to the left as he stepped into it. Of course afterward I covered his right hand strike and we continued, etc, etc.


*So basically my question is this; is it possible to bring effective, modified applications of traditional martial arts into the MMA stand up game?* I mean it seems to me that I'm having more success as a fighter using these traditional techniques I rendered useless after converting to more modern arts when my opponent over-reaches or gets tired. So perhaps these applications can be used as a *finisher* for a fight, or to *end them quickly* when I get the chance?

I'm a very newly converted MMA fighter, been doing about 10 years of Chinese Kenpo Kung Fu and two years of MMA. There's a part of me (perhaps naive) that hopes I can perhaps take what I've learned these last twelve years to sort of blend into my own form of fighting. I do realize that most of it is only basics that work, and they'd have to be extremely modified to be any effective as far as stand up goes, but can anyone give in their two cents regarding bringing TMA applications into MMA stand up? (Nothing to do with when it gets on the ground, though!)

The reason I ask this question is, because despite my own success, if it were really useful wouldn't it be known more in big organizations like UFC or King Of The Cage?


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2013)

I have one word for you: Judo.
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...8j1.10.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.chTthfZ5_d8

Then i have another word for you: Karate.
http://www.youtube.com/results?sear...j1j1.5.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.y1iiuiJJabg

Then i have one last word for you: Yes.
Yes, you can bring TMA stuff into MMA. Yes, it is useful. Most MMA fighters, especially at higher levels, crosstrain all over the place to get an edge.
*However*, you need a basis in MMA. Its... im honestly not too sure its possible to take JUST TMA and be successful in MMA. MMA is MMA. You need skill in MMA to compete in MMA. Make sense?

So yes, you can take what youve learnt, but you have to use it differently and you have to be WILLING to discard what does not work in the transition. Do not try and force your Chinese Kenpo Kung Fu into your MMA, just use it if you get a chance to. Dont find opportunities, take them as they come.

"*So basically my question is this; is it possible to bring effective,  modified applications of traditional martial arts into the MMA stand up  game?* I mean it seems to me that I'm having more success as a  fighter using these traditional techniques I rendered useless after  converting to more modern arts when my opponent over-reaches or gets  tired. So perhaps these applications can be used as a *finisher* for a fight, or to *end them quickly* when I get the chance?"

Also, youre suffering from a preconception. MMA is all about a quick finish. All professional fighting is about either a quick finish or getting more points. Try not to take offense to that. You dont have any special finishing moves thatll work faster than staples. The simple stuff is quickest and easiest, the complex and 'advanced' stuff is usually what happens when people start asking how theyre going to make the simple stuff work. Go watch some competitions on Youtube, or Sherdog or something, and see what actually ends MMA bouts. The first thing youll find is million + views spinning backfists and stuff. After page 1 or so, you get to pages, and pages, and pages or simple basic things thatre so unremarkable they barely attract any attention making up the majority of wins.

"I had another successful application work for me by throwing a right  outward block with my right hand at my opponent's left cross,  immediately throwing a quick left vertical punch (only a bit stronger  than a jab, tad bit quicker) at his nose while leaning to the left as he  stepped into it. Of course afterward I covered his right hand strike  and we continued, etc, etc."

Heres what actually happened. You avoided his jab and countered with a jab. You just spent a paragraph describing what boxers do before they even initiate any kind of attack or defense. Think about that for a second.


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## Saie (Jun 24, 2013)

Wow, thank you! Actually this really clarified a few things up. But my main question is, why don't people utilize more blocking and parrying in MMA? 
Here's a showcase of a few *blocks* I'd like to modify for my stand-up game. Obviously some of the moves in here are illegal or not completely practical for anything other than self defense, but that's why I'm wondering if it's worth modifying for a MMA fight, or if I'd just be wasting my time in the attempt.







I'm mainly just talking about the blocking/parrying in this video, I  would love to translate open palmed strikes into a backfist or a  verticle punch for speed, and use my basic kickboxing for exchange fighting.

I do train in MMA, we have seperate classes to focus Muay Thai and  Boxing as well as Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu. So I have no illusion that  being a Chinese Kenpo black belt alone will get me far in MMA, but  perhaps these applications can be modified to make my style unorthodox  and unique in a sense?


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2013)

Saie said:


> Wow, thank you! Actually this really clarified a few things up. But my main question is, why don't people utilize more blocking and parrying in MMA?
> Here's a showcase of a few *blocks* I'd like to modify for my stand-up game. Obviously some of the moves in here are illegal or not completely practical for anything other than self defense, but that's why I'm wondering if it's worth modifying for a MMA fight, or if I'd just be wasting my time in the attempt.
> 
> 
> ...



Okay. Now this might start stretching your appreciation factor 

Blocking is largely ineffective. Not because blocking is bad, but because action is faster than reaction and it just so happens that blocking a barrage is basically impossible. As such, covering and moving and evading become vastly more RELIABLE skills. That isnt calling blocking bad, thats calling it unreliable. Guarding always works, to some extent or period of time. Not being there to get hit works if you can pull it off. Blocking might work if it lands. Big difference there. That said, blocking/parrying is useful if you can make it work, but your ability to work off of it is still dependent on what the other person is doing. It becomes too much about them if youre not careful.

So... i mean, its not a waste of time. If you wanna block, block. But theres a reason, for instance, that double legs are shot for more often than single legs (takedowns). They work easier and more often. With the blocks in that video, you need to see what theyre doing, where its coming from, block hard enough for them to not just blast through it (notice how in that video, the attacker always just stops, and has no follow on attack? People arent usually that singleminded).

You can still do most if not all of that stuff. Just aim for the face and not the neck. Also, keep in mind that 'exchanges' are more like prolonged setups. Both people have a gameplan theyre trying to apply. Exchanges are just delays. If youre using kickboxing specifically, youve probably stopped 'working to the goal' and started... exchanging.

You can adapt your stuff. Just be picky about what you adapt and what its for. Lemme give you an example.
In wrestling, you shoot for a double leg takedown (mostly/technically) by planting a knee on the ground for added leverage. Im pretty sure the BJJ version is the same.
Now go watch some double leg takedowns, and notice how radically different everyones double leg is, and how the circumstances its being used in change it.
In application, if you have a technique thats inflexible, dont waste your time. If you have one that can be altered situationally, let alone after you 'adjust it for MMA' or whatever, i cant see how thatd hurt.

Muay Thai might help you more than the rest, just to get you used to trying to hit people who dont mind ignoring your strikes so that they can do their own thing (last i checked, clinching people often involves getting hit in the arms and such on your way in. tis what i mean).

Anything else bud?


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## Saie (Jun 24, 2013)

Thanks a lot! I just have one more question, it's pretty much the last thing I have left to ponder as I transfer from 10+ years of traditional martial arts into MMA (only been training MMA for about two years)

Is there anything actually useful that I can bring in from my foundation in Chinese Kenpo? Assuming you know a bit about that particular style (or similar styles) :ultracool


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## WcForMe (Jun 24, 2013)

This is one interesting thread many thanks to all!

I have just started training in mma and i mean just, like 3 two hour sessions. My background is just over a year in wing chun so thats TMA and a month and a half in judo. I went to have a quick go with what i had learned as a pressure test exercise and just keep going now. This whole thread is so valid to me great lil find. 

So im a complete novice all round really compared to you guys. I found wing chun to be very affective agaist the opponents i have been given albiet these are guys just like me do it for fun or fitness, there are a couple of guys that come that do competition here in the uk but amateur small time i presume. The reason i think it works so well is that its a completely different style then most of the guys are used to. As stated the fighters play a different game for points working attacks out etc. Its totally different to what i do and they do. I love the rush in and stay in not going back way. Thats clearly not what mma is about but it worked for me so far.

But i did find out you wanna be good in mma its all about the ground work! Just surviving is clearly not good enough. I love to see to guys striking but now i can appreciate the ground work a lot more than actually just watching it. way harder than what it looks like. 

Im not saying all my wing chun worked i got banged up a good few times but i did manage to tap some guys out. But equally got tapped out way more times than i like to rememeber. If your interested i wrote a lil post here:- 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/110159-My-wing-chun-experience-so-far-and-MMA

If your an mma head or a veteran i very much doubt your interested but if you are there you go.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2013)

Saie said:


> Thanks a lot! I just have one more question, it's pretty much the last thing I have left to ponder as I transfer from 10+ years of traditional martial arts into MMA (only been training MMA for about two years)
> 
> Is there anything actually useful that I can bring in from my foundation in Chinese Kenpo? Assuming you know a bit about that particular style (or similar styles) :ultracool



I dont know enough about Chinese Kenpo, sorry 
If i had to guess, just from watching some videos*, you should probably be able to keep the proximetrics. If you wanna work from the same range that should be okay. Its a little further than close, but a little (or possibly just) closer than medium. If youre talking particular techniques, even if i did know, you might be better off just asking whoevers teaching you. Just take them aside and ask if *insert technique here and demonstrate* might be worth trying out next time you spar with someone (rather than just doing it. that way, he/she might make any necessary alterations, such as body mechanics or proximetrics) for you.

*




PS: That videos contents is hilariously flawed. But thats okay  This isnt to say thats where im getting my response from, its just a really funny video i found in the process. Just dont try and do parry>bodypunch>parrycounter>bodypunch combinations. Please.


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## Saie (Jun 24, 2013)

The man just stands there and takes it all :/ seriously the reason why so many TMA applications are just illusions to what real combat is like.

I often just apply simple applications, and for every street fight I've gotten myself into it's worked. But fighting another trained opponent is the tough part, not some random untrained hot-head.

Karate seems to be doing much better in MMA though! I wish Kung Fu could do the same, other than Sanda Sanshou fighters.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 24, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Blocking is largely ineffective. Not because blocking is bad, but because action is faster than reaction and it just so happens that blocking a barrage is basically impossible. As such, covering and moving and evading become vastly more RELIABLE skills.



If blocking is ineffective then it is the way someone is doing it that makes it so. If you are doing every block the way it is performed during the basics and patterns then it will be to slow to do much good when strikes are thrown. Keep in mind blocking can mean anything from a slight deflection, a parry, an attack to the striking limb or a full on force on force block. Yes you have to react faster than your opponent acts but moving and evading are reactions too. Good blocking comes from a good guarding position and involves mainly small movements (5-10cm) not like swatting flies. As for blocking barrages, if you notice most barrages usually attack from a limited number of angles and targets, often 2 or 3 strikes to the same target. with the right deflections, combined with some evasion, a barrage can be diffused before it gets too unmanageable. Moving and evading involves a larger movement than moving your arm a few centimeters and turning your hips and you can only cover so much.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 24, 2013)

RTKDCMB said:


> If blocking is ineffective then it is the way someone is doing it that makes it so. If you are doing every block the way it is performed during the basics and patterns then it will be to slow to do much good when strikes are thrown. Keep in mind blocking can mean anything from a slight deflection, a parry, an attack to the striking limb or a full on force on force block. Yes you have to react faster than your opponent acts but moving and evading are reactions too. Good blocking comes from a good guarding position and involves mainly small movements (5-10cm) not like swatting flies. As for blocking barrages, if you notice most barrages usually attack from a limited number of angles and targets, often 2 or 3 strikes to the same target. with the right deflections, combined with some evasion, a barrage can be diffused before it gets too unmanageable. Moving and evading involves a larger movement than moving your arm a few centimeters and turning your hips and you can only cover so much.



*sigh*
I cant even be bothered.


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## RTKDCMB (Jun 24, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> *sigh*
> I cant even be bothered.



Not sure why I bothered to.


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## Saie (Jun 25, 2013)

Well usually when confronted by an untrained opponent, blocking is rather easy because my opponent usually would telegraph his strikes and swing wildly. Against a more trained striker, well, I guess it'd be more up to catching the strike as he tires out/over extends his striking, or if he telegraphs. Usually if you can block an over-extended left cross or jab, his momentum will carry him forward to where throwing a right strike would be ineffective. However, feinting attacks render blocking/parrying almost useless and therefore covering up or evading would do a better job.

Of course it'd be easy to block a tired, slow punch, or an over-extended/telegraphed strike! And that's where I'm wondering if the applications of a TMA like Chinese Kenpo or Karate/Kung Fu can fall in. If you're just as tired and weak, say round 3, why counter with an equally slow weak strike when you can just block and counter with a finisher or a takedown?


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## Cyriacus (Jun 25, 2013)

Saie said:


> Well usually when confronted by an untrained opponent, blocking is rather easy because my opponent usually would telegraph his strikes and swing wildly.



Free tip: Youtube 'street fight', and... reconsider that standpoint. Wide hooks, yeah. Overhands, yeah. TMA style dead arm telegraphed swings? Not often. Not often at all.
If you fancy some better examples, there are better websites out there.


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## Saie (Jun 25, 2013)

Mind elaborating? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I went ahead and searched it, watched a few videos, but I'm not understanding your point.


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## Cyriacus (Jun 25, 2013)

Saie said:


> Mind elaborating? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I went ahead and searched it, watched a few videos, but I'm not understanding your point.



Telegraphed haymakers are not what most 'untrained' people utilize, and 'untrained' people tend to throw punches in bunches.


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## MJS (Jun 26, 2013)

Saie said:


> Basically, I'm wondering if anyone's had experience in bringing their foundation of a Traditional Martial Art and somehow making it work with some tweaking to have basic, yet effective applications, such as short blocking or pulling.
> 
> Sparring with a few friends of mine who train in the same mma/jiu jitsu center, we had hyrbrid MMA gloves on and we were going at it full contact on the mat. My partner was getting tired, and I noticed his strikes were becoming a bit more heavy, but still powerful, yet I was exhausted as well and was not doing much better at this point. He over-extended his jab as I was coming in, and my initial reaction was a short left outer-circular block that threw him off balance to my left! I immediately followed it in with a right cross and a sloppy left round house (he mostly blocked it with his right arm up covering, as he attempted to slip any more strikes)
> 
> ...



Well, Lyoto Machida came from a Shotokan background, in addition to the other arts that he's trained, and he seems to be doing well.  There is a JJJ dojo that has done well in sport/BJJ tournaments.  Anything else I could add, Cyriacus summed it up for me.


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## TFP (Jan 12, 2014)

Seems like I'm a bit late to this thread but very honestly the last decade has seen a HUGE reemergence of traditional styles and moves being wildly successful in MMA.  Was awesome watching the MMA dummies astounded that these moves were working.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 12, 2014)

Saie said:


> Is there anything actually useful that I can bring in from my foundation in Chinese Kenpo? Assuming you know a bit about that particular style (or similar styles) :ultracool


I don't train Kenpo but I have sparred with many Kenpo guys. One move that a Kenpo guy likes is to drop his leading arm down, when you jab at his face, he will use "ridge hand" to hit the side of your head. If you change that "ridge hand" into haymaker or hook punch, that can be a very effective move used in MMA.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 13, 2014)

As far as I'm concerned, pretty much all MMA techniques _are _TMA techniques.  The specific tactics may be optimized for the environment and rules of the octagon, but the techniques aren't new.

The big 4 arts which compromise the foundation of modern MMA are western boxing, wrestling, muay thai, and BJJ.  Some practitioners have also brought in elements from other arts such as judo, sambo, karate, TKD, or sanda.

Boxing in its current form is almost 150 years old, with roots going back much further.
Wrestling is pretty much as old as recorded history, with current forms going back to the 19th century.
Muay Thai goes back centuries.
BJJ is not quite 100 years old.

In comparison:

TKD is about 60 years old.
Shotokan Karate is about 100 years old.
Aikido is about 90 years old.

Saie - I think maybe what you really want to ask is whether any elements of your personal training background would be useful in an MMA context.  The answer is ... maybe.  "Chinese Kenpo Kung Fu" is rather a generic term that is used for a range of systems, some old, some new.  Maybe if you could link to some video or background concerning your particular system, then we could see if it is possible to spot something potentially useful to you.


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