# Found on the ICHF news page :D



## Hollywood1340 (Jun 9, 2004)

-On April 18th, 2004 Grandmaster Pellegrini recieved his 9th Dan in Busan, Korea by Grandmaster In Sun Seo of the World Ki-Do Federation/Hanminjok Federation

Many congratulations to my GM! :asian: From a proud Combat Hapkidoian!


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## Drac (Jul 23, 2004)

James.
             Let me join you in congradulating GM P on this accomplishment...




Another proud member
of the ICHF

Drac


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## iron_ox (Jul 23, 2004)

Hello all,

A 9th Dan after 15 years involvment in a martial art should be put in perspective for what it is.

As a rule, not a giant rule, most who formulate their own system are high ranked in at least one art, then, after a lifetime of study, creat their own perspective on it.  This is not the case with "Combat Hapkido".

Lots of people read this stuff, and it would be a diservice not to mention that Pelligrini started in Tae Kwon Do, was given an HONORARY 1st Dan in Hapkido from the American Hapkido Association (apparently only Honorary because of an issue with physical manual dexterity), somehow then got a 5th Dan from the WHF (about two years later) - then off to see the wizard at the World Kido Federation and poof - Combat Hapkido was born - ten years after that - 9th Dan.

Hey, if it works for you, that is awesome.  But in this country, we have soooo many "9th" Dans after 10 years of study, it has got to be a kick in the teeth to people that spend decades in practice.  For example, (and please forgive me for dragging you into this) - Kwanjang of Kong Shin Bup Rudy Timmerman has been in the arts for over 50 years and received a 9th Dan this year as well as I recall - there is a huge disparity here.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## glad2bhere (Jul 23, 2004)

Thanks, Kevin. I am not so sure that is such a "small" difference, either. I would also like to mention that 8th, 9th and 10th dans are all administrative in nature. Even Rudy will be the first to mention that the 9th dan that he received is not a reflection of technical know-how as much as a recognition of his management and leadership skills. If one were to play the image game, TECHNICALLY, as a 4th Dan I COULD start my own kwan or organization and in being recognized by someone like the KHF or WKA or some such as a new kwan I COULD have a 9th dan bestowed on me. With a mere 20 years in the Hapkido arts there is no way I would let that happen. My sense is that the only reason that Rudy accepted the standing which he was given was that his investment in the KMA better justifies the award and he has a standing relationship with GM Seo. 

Now, I am not going to get involved in any squabbling about the merits of who gets what rank. My only reason for piping up is that when people get awarded these rarified ranks I think it is a disservice to allow people to think that an 8th or 9th dan is a reflection of extraordinary technical ability. All it means is that you are a good manager and somebody in the leadership thinks so. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## iron_ox (Jul 23, 2004)

Bruce, I agree completely!  Just wanted to mention it because here in the States, martial arts is as much about the belt number game as it is about knowledge.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## iron_ox (Jul 23, 2004)

Hey Bruce,

How about a thread about the organizations that issue rank?  Just pros and cons, what makes a good organization vs. a not so good organization?  Might be good for some chat...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## kwanjang (Jul 25, 2004)

iron_ox said:
			
		

> ... For example, (and please forgive me for dragging you into this) - Kwanjang of Kong Shin Bup Rudy Timmerman has been in the arts for over 50 years and received a 9th Dan this year as well as I recall - there is a huge disparity here.
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Kevin Sogor



Hello Kevin, KJN:
No problem.  I actually felt quite uneasy about the whole thing; because, up to that point, I had always TESTED for rank.  To be AWARDED any rank just does not sit well with me.  Alas, I did want the art my GM had organized recognized by a Korean association (as a final token of appreciation for what my late GM had given me).  As the inheritor of KSB, I apparently needed to be promoted in order to lead the kwan.  Upon my return, and prompted by some questions about it,  I actually explained my feelings about the issue on several forums as Bruce mentioned.  

Rank is not a significant thing to me; however, I do understand its value as a tool.  Just the same, you won't see me mention any promotions I receive in any magazines  I prefer to have folks evaluate my worth on the mat for as long as I can still get on it without discrediting Hap Ki Do.


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## glad2bhere (Jul 26, 2004)

Dear Kevin: 

I would be all for such a discussion but I don't know that it would go anywhere. Organizations that don't sell rank already know that they keep high standards. Those organizations that DO sell rank are not going to cop to it. As far as the actual dynamics of organizations themselves I have to say in all candor that I wouldn't give you a plug nickel for the overwhelming majority of organizations that are available on the market today. I have had first-hand experience with the sorts of folks that an organization produces in the organization I belong to (WHF). Oh sure, when the discussion is in the abstract they can talk a good line of jargon-eze. Let the discussion come around to actually practicing what they say they practice and its the same old commercial/political crap. I'm sure a lot of folks find my quaint advocacy of the old kwan approach to the KMA novel, maybe even laughable, who knows. But I have never had half the trouble with the Yon Mu Kwan that I have had through my efforts with the WHF.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Jul 27, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Thanks, Kevin. I am not so sure that is such a "small" difference, either. I would also like to mention that 8th, 9th and 10th dans are all administrative in nature. Even Rudy will be the first to mention that the 9th dan that he received is not a reflection of technical know-how as much as a recognition of his management and leadership skills. If one were to play the image game, TECHNICALLY, as a 4th Dan I COULD start my own kwan or organization and in being recognized by someone like the KHF or WKA or some such as a new kwan I COULD have a 9th dan bestowed on me. With a mere 20 years in the Hapkido arts there is no way I would let that happen. My sense is that the only reason that Rudy accepted the standing which he was given was that his investment in the KMA better justifies the award and he has a standing relationship with GM Seo.
> 
> 
> Best Wishes,
> ...



I enjoy reading your humor, But as a reality check the KHF would not allow you to become a ninth Dan or for that matter a fifth Dan. wether you have your own kwan or not .

 You would need more than Keyboard skills to convince them otherwise. some where in your journey you would have to have the skills on the mat to back up the skills that you write about.

And you would have go before the senior committee of the KHF  and have the recommendation of at least four of the eight person panel. The way you have attacked them so many times. I some how feel it would not be an open arms meeting. So please Do not assume they would embrace you for contribution to the Hapkido community.

       Hal


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## glad2bhere (Jul 27, 2004)

I don't remember anyone talking to you--- or even about you. But since you are once again not able to keep your attention-getting behavior undercontrol may I say the following. 

1.) I have never injured any of my students, nor exploited them in a demonstration to make myself look good in other peoples eyes. 

2.) I have not moved back and forth among five or six different entities in an effort to garner standing and rank as have you. 

3.) I have not sold rank or standing nor do I undercut members of the kwan to which I belong as have the leadership of the KHF. 

4.) I have not spoken of people behind their backs as you have done with the AHA and Todd Miller and Mike McCardy, nor undermined the efforts of others such as JR West by suggesting alternative events to his Internationales. 

I could deride you as a mean-spirited embarrassment to the Hapkido community but that would be a slander to all the other mean-spirited people in this world. Suffice to say you are an embarrassment and plainly not equal in Character to the responsibilites you propose to perform. 

In conclusion I can say in all candor that there is a simple way to reconcile your presence and mine in the same martial arts community. On October 2 and 3rd in Merrilville Ind GM Seo is having a seminar regarding his new kwans' material. You are welcome to join me on the mat with the following provisos

a.) You must remain with the same partner as you begin the day with. 

b.) You must take as many breakfalls from your partner as you give.

c.) You may not injure your partner. 

d.) You may perform no less techniques than do I.

e.) You are expected to attend both days and remain for both days beginning to end and abiding by the provisos I have outlined.

I will be abiding by the same provisos with my partner. 

If this is not to your liking there is also a seminar the following weekend in Texas with GM Ji where the same provisos will apply. 

I have every confidence that you will find a reason not to show up. 

That having shown up you will not get on the mat.

That getting on the mat you will not be able to submit to the agenda of another teacher. 

That submitting to another teacher you will abuse your partner. 

That in not being able to abuse your partner you will be unable to sustain your practice for the entire 2-day length of the seminar. 

Put up or shut up. 

Regards


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## whalen (Jul 27, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I don't remember anyone talking to you--- or even about you. But since you are once again not able to keep your attention-getting behavior undercontrol may I say the following.
> 
> 1.) I have never injured any of my students, nor exploited them in a demonstration to make myself look good in other peoples eyes.
> 
> ...



Bruce you crack me up You have run off my mat and ran away from Ji han jaes seminar now you want to return ? Master jis people woulld love to get you on the mat before you sneak out like a thief in the nigth.

I found you coments like you unpredictable when you sent an email about keven Sogor stating he cannot be trusted maybe i should post that ?

brucie.

I have you on video at my dojang when you would perform a technique on my students step back so it could not be performed on you ? It is here on film ?

Bruce do not forget you are biting off more than you can chew maybe you should go do research on the history of the KMA while the REAL HAPKIDOIN TRAIN... or is where you threaten me with like you have others that wanted to visit your Dojang ?


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## whalen (Jul 27, 2004)

>> This is the first time I have posted here. After the workout at Mudo
>> Academy I felt Master Whalen was treated unfairly and decided to give
>> an 'outsiders' view. My son has studied Hapkido under Master Whalen
>> for 6 years (he is now 13). My son was invited to workout with the
>> adults during the 5/1-5/2 weekend. I came along to take video and
>> still pictures.
>> On Sunday of that weekend while attempting to throw another adult,
>> Bruce reinjured his leg. Within a few minutes he was off the mat and
>> dressed to leave. He never said anything to Master Whalen. While he 
>> was standing in the waiting area I asked him if he would like some
>> Icy Hot or an ice bag. He nearly bit my head off! He snapped that no,
>> he did not want anything. When I asked if he was ok, he again snapped
>> at me that no, he was not ok. He then walked away and called a cab to 
>> take him to the airport. Again without the courtesy of informing
>> Master Whalen that he needed to leave.
>> When Master Whalen came over to check on him, Bruce also treated
>> Master Whalen poorly. He snapped at him that he did not need to hurt
>> himself again and that he did not need anything from Master Whalen.
>> I am sorry that Bruce hurt himself. However, he did it himself. There
>> was no reason whatsoever for him to talk to me or Master Whalen the
>> way that he did and no reason for him to leave in such a huff. This
>> man is an adult and was a guest to Master Whalen. He should have
>> acted as such. Also, I believe he teaches Hapkido. I would not want
>> my child to learn from someone with such bad manners.
>> During the past 6 years that my son has studied Hapkido, Master
>> Whalen and his instructors have always taught respect. It is a 
>> fundamental part of Hapkido. Master Whalen's ethics are a big part of 
>> the reason why I have followed him through through 2 moves and 6 
>> years. He teaches the kids honor, respect and pride. Bruce could
>> learn a lot from Master Whalen in these departments.
>>
>>this was taken from another site


       Hal


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## glad2bhere (Jul 27, 2004)

This is not rocket science. Either you are going to put up or shut up. You can drag up all the testimonials from satisfied mothers whose kids you babysit. 

You can comment on all the events you have gossiped about (by the way, I didn't see you or Mike Tomlinson or Rick Nabors at that Colorado event. Who are you to talk about an event you never even attended?). 

1.) And BTW I wouldn't woof TOO loud about leaving a school early unless you want to explain YOUR behavior in Korea a while back to everybody whose reading this. That tune plays the same forward AND backward. 

2.) You also might want to explain why you only get out on the mat when its YOU who is incurring the pain. Two day seminar in Jackson AND in Quincy and never ONCE took a breakfall? Sad thing is that was completely missed by people who were so easily "wow-ed" by your demo-s. You will recall no doubt that even with an injury I took breakfalls for my partner all day (10-6)Saturday. I never saw you take one. 

Now, my little keyboard commando, I suggest you answer the original question. Either you are coming to Merriville for GM Seo-s event or you are making plans for the Texas event with GM Ji. Which is it going to be?

BTW: If you like Todd can be your "lifeline" for this one. Maybe you might want to call him up for another 2-hour derision session.


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 27, 2004)

Ok gents. Let's tone it down. I am aware that there were issues which arose from the visit to your dojang by Bruce. I have heard this from multiple sources. That being said, I'm not sure this is the forum that these concerns need to be addressed in.

I would also like to comment here on proper etiquette and netiquette. One should show respect to one's seniors, whether they agree or not. Aside from this, we are each on the path, as evidenced by our continued participation in the arts. There are many who have long given up at this point. Our sheer tenacity deserves respect.

Let's move on to something a tad more productive please.


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## glad2bhere (Jul 27, 2004)

Dear Frank: 

I can only say that on surface I agree with you entirely. To use the words that both Master West and his chief assistant have counseled me with "... and take the higher road." Unfortunately I must report that the ideal in this is simply lost on people dedicated to incurring injury. I believe this was seen in the efforts of that OTHER person ( you know--- HIM) over the last 2 years and is periodically seen in the behaviors of folks who may simply be too immature to know better( I don't know which it is). I don't have a window into other peoples hearts. What HAS become unmistakeably clear to me is that bullies will continue to push and pick, antagonize and deride until someone finally decides there has been enough. You will note, I think, that noone asked Hals' opinion. Noone was talking about Hal. Noone was talking TO Hal. He himself has by choice or selection been relegated to a relatively small standing with the KHF through an ancillary organization so its not as though he was speaking for the KHF. A near identical situation occurred on another string regarding the WHF to which he has not been a member in some years and could not possibly know what is transpiring with that organization in the last few years. My OWN comment was a single clause of an otherwise complete sentence speaking to another issue. 

Unfortunately Hals' ego and his poor impulse control are his own undoing. In my case I have no control over his behavior so he is free to antagonize anyone he cares to at will. What he has to understand is he can pick at anyone he chooses to; he simply is not allowed to conduct himself in this way with me. I am sure he finds his current circumstances daunting, but I didn't do it to him. He did it to himself. If I were in a place to offer solace I would suggest that he do something about his over-weening desire to have people applaud him. FWIW. 

Regards, 

Bruce


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 27, 2004)

Bruce,

What you say may be accurate; however, there is no reason why you cannot take the proverbial high road. I'm asking that we maintain a conversation that is a tad more civil.


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## whalen (Jul 27, 2004)

What bruce is saying is not accurate in any way he is taking things out of context and uses it any way he sees fit. if he asks you a question beware because he will use the answer you give him against you.
He seems to think he is the savior Of Hapkido. He is not ......

Ask anyone that was at the Last J. R West seminar and ask if I took falls ? I was being thrown by Fabian and Mike Tomlinson Where was bruce ? I was also at Master Timmermans seminar getting tied up By Holcombe Thomas and being thrown around where was Bruce ?

Usually when one is teaching the seminar they are not receiving the Falls ? When i was asked by to do demonstrations at various events Where I was teaching People expect to see what is going to be taught not the instructor being thrown.


Brucie your qeustion will not recieve an answer because you are not a challange . you should reevaluate your stand because you are writting checks your body cannot cash.

Hal


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## glad2bhere (Jul 27, 2004)

Dear Frank: 

Point well taken so perhaps you can help out with something. Please note the following quote from Hal Whalen. 

"......
Bruce you crack me up You have run off my mat and ran away from Ji han jaes seminar now you want to return ? Master jis people woulld love to get you on the mat before you sneak out like a thief in the nigth.

I found you coments like you unpredictable when you sent an email about keven Sogor stating he cannot be trusted maybe i should post that ?...." 

I have BEEN on the mat with GM Jis' people. Whats the point? Everyone with a belly-button knows I am not particularly impressed with what I witnessed as Jis' teaching style. Some people like it. Thats OK for them. I just plain wasn't that impressed. The people I worked out with were pretty much the same as any other Hapkido people I've worked out with--- no better, no worse. Whats the point? 

NOW------ 

The reason I brought that up was that the information in THAT part of the quote is relatively innocuous. I think of it as the 2004 equivalent of "yer mama wears army boots". Its the *second* half of the quote that bothers me--- bothers me a lot!! 

As you know, Frank, a MA teacher pretty much runs on his reputation, and arguably that reputation needs to be squeeky clean. A few clouds on a persons' rep and suddenly people start walking wide circles around that person, enrollment drops off and we have another MA school on the ropes. So putting my personal issue with Hal to one side for a moment I think Hal needs to document his last assertion in that quote. I can tell you from my side that Kevin Sogor came up in a telephone conversation wherein Hal wanted to know why Kevin was contacting him and what sort of person he is. Kevins' report is that he has never talked to Hal --- ever and has never written Hal an e-mail--- ever.  If Hal Whalen has an e-mail casting aspersions on a professional MA teacher I propose that he produce that. The only thing that I would ask is that he publish a *scan of that e-mail including a full header*. Certainly this would not completely rule out tampering but perhaps it might at least limit the probability. If Hal cannot produce the document he claims he has and which defames Kevin in the way that Hal claims it does, then I submitt that Hal Whalen be permanently banned from this Net and I will leave it entirely to the judgement of the Admin to decide the merits of the published item. Fair enough? 

BTW: While we are at it. How about Hal gives the *names * of the Ji people who "love to get you on the mat." There is the Ji event in Texas. Give me the names and we'll put that together. Dave Beck is organizing things down there and I am sure he would be more than willing to help organize things so that people have a chance to spend decent portions of the training with me on the mat. Not a problem from MY end. Fair enough? 

Regards, 

Bruce


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## whalen (Jul 27, 2004)

Frank better yet contact felix lugo, Holcombe thomas , JR West Rudy Timerman about me ?  Also contact my dojang any night and talk to people that were here and witnessed the Bruce Almighty......

I am not looking for a fight i am tired of the little remarks from Bruce attacking everyone and the KHF

this is my last post He is your problem .

Hal artyon:


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## Mithios (Jul 27, 2004)

Come on guys! This is not elementary school!! Could we please get back on the thread topic? You both seem knowledgeable in Hapkido, but i sure wouldn't know it from these post's.  Mithios


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## Black Belt FC (Jul 27, 2004)

I try whenever possible to avoid petty discussions about who is greater or who can do what in Hapkido, but since Master Whalen one of the few individuals who has openly offer himself and his school to me on a weekend visit gets attack I need to draw in.



I have learned many things over the years while training especially one important rule  never disrespect seniors. Their rank symbolized more than level of expertise they have achieved their rank thru trial and error, training, blood, tears and commitment. When I was at Bostons very own Mudo Academy I witness first-hand years of dedication and training in Master Whalen, but more than that I witness the zenith of a true Master the ability to teach and inspire others while running a full time school.



This much I learned from my past instructors: when a season Hapkido practitioner execute wrist throws he will SAFELY throw his partner without getting either himself or his partner injure; that Master Whalen has done repeatedly in front of me. Further more, while at the academy Master Whalen trained beside me and execute falls like a pro. What else needs to be said?



Im not anywhere near the level of expertise with Masters Whalen, Holcombe Thomas, JR West and Rudy Timerman. I recognize this and compliantly accept it; I only wish others do the same. I on the other hand seek them for guidance, instruction and support, I hope we train together soon.



Regards



Lugo


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## iron_ox (Jul 27, 2004)

Master Whalen,

Before you leave, I deserve an answer.  

When have I EVER spoken to you, emailed you, or contacted you in any way regarding becoming a member of the KHF???

You claim you have an email where my character is questioned, then produce it.

I have always tried to give you the benefit of the doubt when it came to the KHF - having said I think there are good guys in a bad organization - and you tell at least one person that I contacted you to be in this same orgainzation?  Frankly, I would doubt my own sanity, let alone if I could be trusted, if such a thing EVER occured.  BUT, it did not.

I think you must have made a mistake.  This is only human.  Please correct your mistake.  My reputation may mean nothing to you, but it is important to me.

You have involved me in your discussion with Bruce, now produce the evidence of your allegation.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## greendragon (Jul 27, 2004)

Can I interject some sanity here?

Where do I start... Bruce I think Master Whalen is getting a little fed up with your underhanded comments about the KHF.. why not let it go.. you are not a member of that org. so what's all the keyboard lingo about, who cares if you don't like the KHF or any other organization, I sure don't.  So why all the diatribe about orgs. you don't belong to?  

You are a member of the Yon Moo Kwan and also the WHF. right? . welp bro I recieved my 1st Dan from Master Whalen and Kwang Sik Myung in 1992 from the WHF.. my test lasted almost 4 hours... as I remember it that was the year that Master Whalen was given the Certificate of "Instructor of the Year" by GM Myung for the WHOLE WHF and Yon Moo Kwan, I still have a photocopy of it by the way... and he is also the guy taking ALL THE FALLS on the whole first series of Hapkido video tapes,, that's right, the guy you are disrespecting was the golden boy of your organization before you were even aware of it, or probably part of it, go check out the old tapes. Master Whalen is "taking falls" on ALL the tapes from the GM that later gave you your rank, maybe you should ask GM Myung about Master Whalen.  

   I have known Master Whalen for close to sixteen years.. and I have known Doju Nim Ji for close to seven years.. they are two of the very best Hapkidoists that have ever drawn in a breath of oxygen.  The thing that they both have in common is that they love Hapkido--on the mat!!  Neither one of these two have ever injured me on the mat,, sure they have hurt me but that is what it's all about.  You see that is the key--on the mat working out and pushing yourself past your limits.  

Now when it comes to pushing yourself past your limits,, Bruce,, you went to Co. to train for two days.. you made it about a day and a third by your own admission. and left without telling anyone. you went to Master Whalens dojang to train,, got hurt on day two and left after yelling at people right?  I wasn't at either place but I am getting the info from you right?  So now you want to challenge people that have done Hapkido for days and weeks on end without quitting or leaving the mat to Hapkido endurance matches?  How are you gonna all of a sudden become a Hapkido bad *** when your track record shows that you are very frail but opinionated?  No offense dude but I think you should watch those Jet Li movies again and rethink why you are "challenging" 7th Dan Grandmasters of Hapkido, and then talking about how the Sin Moo people weren't impressive.  Did you tell anyone on the mat that they weren't impressive?  No from what I gather they all went to lunch on day two and when they came back you were gone?  Wow that is impressive bro.. hardcore hardcharging all the way to the bus huh?  But wait at Master Whalens dojang at least you called a cab, got home and then started your battle on the keyboard.. that is truly impressive. 

Also I noticed you used Mike McCarty's name, at least spell it right before you act like you know him in some way.

Bruce trust me the Sin Moo people aren't laying for you, they all think you are a joke.  So you don't need names as if that would mean anything to anyone but you.  Pesonally I think you might just be some sort of idiot and that is why I refused to get in contact with you when you come to Florida.  I like to hang out with real Hapkido people so I don't need to meet you and have some coffee and "talk" about Hapkido, and trust me your judgement of my Hapkido skills is the least of my concern.  In closing let me say that you remind me of a saying that my very first Hapkido teacher Y.J. Chung of Dayton Ohio used to say to us back in 1969 when we ran off at the mouth like you always do. he would say "the less a can has in it the more it rattles".  What a goof. 
                                                         Michael Tomlinson


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 27, 2004)

Gentlemen,

Let's get back on topic. Bruce, you were doing fairly good on doing so until you went forward with more comments. Kevin, please take it off the message board. Hal, you have alot to share about Hapkido and you are one of the leaders of the American community... don't stoop.

In short, to all, this is a venue in which we want to share information. It is not a venue in which we would care to share personal grievances. Please take it off the board, and to private email, where such banter belongs.

Thanks.


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## iron_ox (Jul 27, 2004)

Kodanjaclay,

What do you mean take it off the board???  I was never involved in this mess until Whalen decided to play that card - now he should answer out in the open.

Let him correct his mistake.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Kodanjaclay (Jul 27, 2004)

Kevin,

I am a moderator. Who said what first is not my concern. My concern is keeping the forum available to all, including lurkers.

Now I asked you to take it off the board, and that is what I meant. I am not asking you to like what I am proposing; however, I am asking that you comply. I am trying to end this situation before it progresses and more serious actions need to be taken.

Regards,


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## iron_ox (Jul 27, 2004)

Kodanjaclay,

I agree, who said what first is not a concern.  Just what is said.


Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor


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## Greg (Jul 28, 2004)

Bruce:

I have to agree with Master Lugo and Mr. Tomlinson when it comes to Master Whalen. I have visited Master Whalen's school several times over the past three years and have had the fortunate opportunity of seeing one of the truly great masters of Hapkido. What has always impressed me most about Master Whalen is his love of training. He really is ALL about the training. Unlike some schools where the Master or Instructor simply leads class, Master Whalen actively participates with his class, performing all the stretches, kicks and joint locks with his students. I have never seen him ask anything of a student that he wasn't willing to do himself, including falls. If you want something demonstrated, whether it's a joint-lock, a kick or a break fall, all you have to do is ask. When I was at his school last winter I saw him take a number of throws. And never have I seen anyone get injured. 

With this being said, however, I wouldn't expect the instructor to be spending much of his time being thrown during a class or seminar; not because of his senior rank or fear of being thrown but simply because that's not what benefits the student the most. IMHO the instructor needs to be on his feet demonstrating the specifics of basic motion and the complexities of the technique being learned. For this reason, it's unreasonable to assume that someone who's leading a seminar or even a class is spending 50% of his time on his/her back. Again, it has nothing to do with seniority of rank, age, experience or the fear of being thrown. It has to do with providing the best possible instruction to your students. 

My God, anyone who has seen Master Whalen knows he is someone who walks the walk. When he's done with class his dobok is dripping wet. I think that's why he's so respected. I think the notion of him avoiding *anything* that has to do with Hapkido, including taking falls, is absolutely ridiculous.

As far as switching organizations, an important point has been missed. I too would argue that switching organizations for the purpose of achieving a higher rank is not right. But this has *NEVER *been the case with Master Whalen. If you look at the time-in-grade intervals between each of his promotions, you'll see that he has always been at each Dan rank for the appropriate period of time. For this reason, I think the whole point of switching organizations is a moot one. 

Finally when it comes to offering challenges to show up to a seminar, I don't think that's fair. It's simply a way to set someone up in an attempt to make them look like a coward at a later date when in reality, that person probably wouldn't have been able to attend the seminar in the first place. To say, "show up and we'll......" and then later say, "See...you never showed up".... I mean, come on, making challenges like this is a little sophomoric, don't you think?

Just my two cents.  


Greg


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## whalen (Jul 28, 2004)

Kevin:

Never, and I mean never, did I say anything negative about you. In fact, the only time your name came up was when I received an e-mail signed "Kev" with "ks" as a portion of the return e-mail address. The e-mail was simply asking for information about the KHF and that was all. I then asked Bruce if this e-mail could be from Kevin Sogar, because I didn't recognize the e-mail address. That's it. Bruce then began stating some things that I won't mention here, but I can assure you that I've never said anything derogatory about you - ever. 

What I can tell you Kevin, is watch your back when it comes to Bruce Simms. Anything you say to him in confidence will be used against you at a later time when it serves his interests. I have told him things in the past because I trusted him as a friend, only to learn that nothing I said in confidence would be honored as such. As a therapist you would think Bruce would know how to keep things in confidence. His code of honor is a very flexible one.

So Kevin this will be the last post I'll make regarding this matter, but rest assured that I never made a derogatory comment about you.

Hal  artyon:


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## Kevin F. Donohue (Jul 28, 2004)

Bruce,

You and I agree on many of the problems and challenges that are facing the Hapkido community here in the United States and elsewhere in the world. We have all pitched in to corner the rat that caused many of us a great deal of problems over the past few years.... and that was a great win for all of us. I also enjoy the historical research and information that you have provided over your many postings.

With this being said, I do not agree with your assessment of Hal Whalen. I have known Hal for a few years and never did I see him avoid time on the mat. I never witnessed Hal avoid being thrown or having techniques applied to him. I have also never witnessed Hal trying to hurt anyone he trained with. Hal is like the energizer bunny... he just keeps going and going. In fact he is quite an inspiration to me as I hope that my body will allow me to put on the line, as often as Hal does, ten years from now. In fact Hal is one of the few masters that I have ever seen that gets on the mat and trains as hard as his best students. Very few people put their body through the constant pounding that Hal has. 

As for "putting it on the line" I think that Hal is the type of person who is willing to test his skills either in the dojang or in an alley. I would never question the man's courage or determination. He has lived a life that so called "keyboard commando's" can only dream about.

Hal has always been a gentleman at any event that I have seen him attend. He is also very generous by opening up his home to Hapkido-in from around the country that wish to go to Boston to train with him. He is also the least political person I have ever met.

Maybe sometimes different personalities don't mix, but that does not dictate that we don't want the same things or that we are unable to work together. The problem that exists right now in the U.S. Hapkido community is that everyone wants to be heard but nobody wants to listen... especially if what we are hearing hurts us a little bit. Communication is a two way street and we all need to improve our listening skills since we are in agreement on 99% of what we need to do to get things moving in a positive direction; yet we fight over semantics.

My advice is for you and Hal to speak on the phone, work out your issues so that you both can move forward from here. Life is too short to hold grudges and to spend 90% of our time arguing over the 1% of the issues that we are unable to agree on. 

I hope that we are all able to see our weaknesses as well as our strengths because if we are unable to do this, we will never reach our true individual potential. Have a great day.

Kevin F. Donohue


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## Master Todd Miller (Jul 28, 2004)

Maybe sometimes different personalities don't mix, but that does not dictate that we don't want the same things or that we are unable to work together. The problem that exists right now in the U.S. Hapkido community is that everyone wants to be heard but nobody wants to listen... especially if what we are hearing hurts us a little bit. Communication is a two way street and we all need to improve our listening skills since we are in agreement on 99% of what we need to do to get things moving in a positive direction; yet we fight over semantics.

My advice is for you and Hal to speak on the phone, work out your issues so that you both can move forward from here. Life is too short to hold grudges and to spend 90% of our time arguing over the 1% of the issues that we are unable to agree on. 

I hope that we are all able to see our weaknesses as well as our strengths because if we are unable to do this, we will never reach our true individual potential. Have a great day.

Very well put!  Wheather you agree with Bruce or Hal we are all Hapkidoin and childish bickering bennifts no one.  Take the high road and pick up the phone with a calm heart and mind and work out your differences or agree to dissagree.  A little courtesy goes a long way.

Take care
Todd Miller
Korea Jungki Hapkido & Guhapdo Assc.
www.millersmudo.com


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## glad2bhere (Jul 28, 2004)

Dear Folks: 

I personally think that Frank and Greg and Ken are very right. So lets take a look at what we have here and I leave it to you to simply survey the posts in succession to validate what I am about to say. 

1.) Nobody was talking to or about Hal. Actually, nobody was talking about the KHF. I used the KHF along with the WKA to underscore a point and I don't hear any WKA whining. Sorry the KHF people have thin skins but thats not my problem. I did what I could for them as a member of the Hapkido community and haven't had anything to say about them since Bae resigned and Hal said he was content to sit in his school and teach. Fine. Who exactly is it that is not letting WHAT go? 

2.) Hal dragged Kevin Sogor into this discussion. Nobody was talking about Kevin, Kevin is not intersted in being involved and I am not interested in involving him. Hal made a defamatory statement and now he can't back it up. Who exactly is behavior irresponsibly here? 

3.) Mike you continue to beat the drum about GM Ji. Fine for you. You are impressed with him and I am not. Whats the problem? Am I given to understand that I must automatically agree with whatever the prevailing thought is? You like Ji, and others like Ji, so I must like him as well? What about the Lee people with WHRDA or the Suh people with WKSWA? I think I could be forgiven for saying that you begin to sound like one of those cult followers whose designated hero is the holder of the one truth.

4.) And lets take a look at people leaving seminars and I will put to the side for the moment that you weren't even there-- for any of the seminar. The original seminar population was approx 40 people and started about 10am. By the time 11am came around we had lost about 5 or six people. Coming back from lunch on Saturday we were just a tad under 20, and by close of training we had about 12. Now remember, we are talking about people who purportedly are all Ji/Sin Mu practitioners and THEY couldn't stay for the seminar. Sunday we started with about 20 people and by lunch there were 15 people left. And don't get me started about the folks who spent time talking, the big fella who spent no small amount of time against the wall stretching, the two or three folks who performance was purported limited by injury or the people I worked with who couldn't take the technique because of their lack of confidence in their breakfall skills. GM Ji indicated that we would spend the afternoon doing breaking, and I had pretty much had all of the entire embarrasing situation that I cared to be a part of and quite enough of his teaching style. You have repeatedly taken me to task for leaving early but *noone speaks to those people who were part of Ji's own system who didn't have the respect to stay for the entire length of their OWN TEACHERS seminar! And you--- YOU didn't even attend!* Excuse me but who are you to assess ANYONES performance regarding seminar attendence? 

5.) Finally there is the matter of challenges and I suppose people are making a lot of an old bookworm calling someone out who is arguably younger, stronger, faster etc etc etc. Guess what, Mike at least I am standing for something. Say what you will, and maybe I get my butt beat and maybe I drop from exhaustion, and maybe I am turn-out to be the laughing stock of the Hapkido community, but I am willing to put my performance on the line for better of for worse. What do YOU stand for? What do YOU put at risk? If I have no problem arranging to face a person with live blades just how much am I likely to be worried about a fist fight?  At least I am out in front putting it on the line. I hear a lot of people talk about "warrior this" and "warrior that" and to support those positions people make a big deal about what they can do with their bodies. I don't hear any of you asking to be assessed in front of a Hapkido population of standing members to have their rank validated? I don't hear any of you people traveling across country just to prep for such an event. In fact I will take it one step farther and single you out in particular. You, Mike, did not have the simple courtesy anyone would have to respond to nothing more than an e-mail to get together--- on my own time. Who the heck are YOU to preach to ANYONE about respect, or rudeness or Hapkido solidarity?!? If you are ANY indication of the sort of intolerant, mean-spirited and small-minded person that Ji's teachings produce then I thank you for confirming for me every last suspicion I have had about you as a practitioner and Ji as a teacher. 

I don't think there is much more that I can add to this discussion. People have said things and I have answered. You folks are going to do and act as you will. This dog-and-pony show will come up again later and it will be someone elses' turn in the barrel--- someone else you don't agree with-- who doesn't think the same way you do. So you have your belief system and you are happy with it. Via Con Dios. I reserve the right to disagree, to ask that people substantiate their positions with facts and that they stand by their positions. Don't like the rules? Find another game. But don't ask me to surrender my values because they are just a bit too much for your Characters to handle.


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## greendragon (Jul 28, 2004)

Take care.
                                                      Michael Tomlinson


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## Hollywood1340 (Jul 28, 2004)

I find it interesting, as starter of this thread to see where it ended up. It started as a student, me, making it known my GM has just recieved his ninth. To the best of my knowledge I have one post that is truely relevent to my starting post. I don't mind opinions or thoughts to the matter at hand, but look at the RE: line.


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## Enson (Jul 28, 2004)

i personally think that a ninth is a great thing to accomplish. even though to some its for leadership what about the 8 before that and all the tropical colors even before that? i think as martial artist we should congratulate anyone that can accomplish or earn any belt.


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## Michael Billings (Jul 28, 2004)

I am locking this thread for the Admin/Mod team's review due to the Moderator's warnings not being complied with.

 -Michael Billings
  MT S. Moderator


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