# Fighting stance question....



## Tony Starks (Dec 1, 2002)

When im sparring and im in my fighting stance, i seem to bounce around and at time go in circles. Now my question is, is better to stand still and then strike or is it better to move around. I wanted to know how all of u felt about this and what u think is effective (im kinda new to martial arts).

                   Thx
                        -T.S.


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## Shinzu (Dec 1, 2002)

i hard question for me  to answer tony.  i have seen many people "bounce" when they fight and i have seen others stay flat footed.  i feel that when i "bounce" i am more off balance.  i tend to stay flat footed, but i move around alot.  i am not sure what is better.  i guess it depends on your fighting preference.  
whatever makes you a better fighter in the end is what you should go with.


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## Senfeng (Dec 1, 2002)

Sometimes I shift my stance to entice my opponent to "attempt" to sweep me.  I'm usually moving in or around my opponent.  This may be just me, but I've noticed that when I stay still, my opponent is better prepared for my attack.  He can easily pick up any movement I make.


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## Shinzu (Dec 1, 2002)

good point.  there is always room for improvement in my fighting techniques


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## Elfan (Dec 1, 2002)

Well the alternative to circling with them is having them behind you which is probably a lot worse.

The stability vs. mobility (ie  a low stance vs dancing around like a boxer) is something that you have to varry with the situation and environment.  I don't think I would ever bounce around though.

Did that adress what you were asking?


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## Tony Starks (Dec 1, 2002)

yes it did, thx a lot for the replies


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## chufeng (Dec 1, 2002)

Tony,

Those who bounce are easy targets...it is simply a matter of timing your attack on the bounce up...once they are moving up, they cannot change directions (if you telegraph your technique, though, you may walk into a kick...be careful).

Those who are "flat-footed" might be easy targets, too...it depends on whether they are loading their stance or just standing in a "dead stance." 

You should adjust your distance with movement, but keep good stances under you; and when standing still, keep your legs loaded.

:asian:
chufeng


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## muayThaiPerson (Dec 1, 2002)

There are many factors.
its good to bounce around becuase it allows quick response to attacks. 
standing around is something a proffesional usually does because they are quick already. u should try to not be predictable, like putting your leg back preparing for a kick. 
what i learned is to show nothing, dont show fatigue, nor the next move. thats all in stance


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## chufeng (Dec 1, 2002)

MuayThai:

You said:
"its good to bounce around becuase it allows quick response to attacks."

In some arts, it's expected (like boxing or MuayThai)...but a trained fighter will learn to exploit the bouncer.

The explanation I got from my father (a boxing coach) was that if you stay light on your feet, you will absorb less punishment and you can move faster...

But if you are at the apex of your bounce (on your toes and just starting to come down), HOW will you change directions? Your feet have to be planted first.

If you watch the professional boxers, you will see that the time spent on the toes is done to TIRE the opponent.
When the boxer is serious about delivering punishment, the heels sink into the floor and BOOM...

In the martial arts, we are not interested in dancing around a ring...a fight should last NO MORE than 15 seconds.

Don't confuse ring tournaments with real life.
Even in MuayThai, on the street, the MuayThai practitioner will go for the FAST finishing technique...that does not include bouncing.

Bouncing has it's place...if you want to go to tournaments where POINTS are awarded...bounce.
If you plan to tire an opponent out in the ring...bounce.

Otherwise, keep a stable base under you.

:asian;
chufeng


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 1, 2002)

Exactly!


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## Tony Starks (Dec 2, 2002)

wow good points


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## karatekid1975 (Dec 2, 2002)

Shinzu wrote:

*i hard question for me  to answer tony.  i have seen many people "bounce" when they fight and i have seen others stay flat footed.  i feel that when i "bounce" i am more off balance.  i tend to stay flat footed, but i move around alot.  i am not sure what is better.  i guess it depends on your fighting preference.  
whatever makes you a better fighter in the end is what you should go with. *

I would have to agree with you on this. I am a "flat footer", but yet, I switch stance and do a lot of "fakes". I hate bouncing.

Like Chufeng said. I feel when people bounce, they are easy targets. I can knock them off their feet with a well placed side kick when they are bouncing. I do WTF TKD, which does a lot of the "bouncing exercises" but I don't agree with it. I do it cause I'm told, but when I spar, I stay flat footed (rooted). I just "time" my techniques rather than look like a dang jumping bean.


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## Marginal (Dec 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *
> Bouncing has it's place...if you want to go to tournaments where POINTS are awarded...bounce.
> *



That's not especially useful in point fighting either. Usually just telegraphs your movement and techniques.


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## Bod (Dec 2, 2002)

Bouncing is awful in street fighting. Check out how many grapplers bounce. None. You will be mown down if you bounce. You can get away with it in boxing because there are no points awarded for charging your opponent into the canvas.

Sideways or circling movement is a different thing altogether.

You must move and stay balanced as if you were standing still. This is why footwork is a skill, it's not easy to master, but it is probably the most important part of strategy.


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## muayThaiPerson (Dec 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *MuayThai:
> 
> ...



listen to this guy right here. he's right. i meant its good to bound around in the ring. but street fight.....get it over as fast as you can:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Dec 2, 2002)

Nice to see Yiliquan theory validated in a public forum...


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## Bod (Dec 3, 2002)

I read the theory in a Pa Kua Chang book, and I guess Yiliquan footwork theory is Pa Kua Chang based, right?

In practice I know the theory works from doing Judo. Traditional kung fu takes into account grappling and multiple attacks, wheras 'bouncers' everywhere are ignoring reality.

It's fine within the confines of ring arts, and I've got nothing against boxers who shuffle, but they tend not to shuffle while within punching distance.


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## WhiteTiger (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *Tony,
> 
> ...



This is good advice, it is important to stay light-footed and mobile but bouncing is a bad habbit to get into, invarably you fall into a timing pattern with your movement and a good apponent can use this to his advantage.  With that said, don't be afraid of using a bouncing movement to draw in and set-up an opponent for a counter kick.  Key is Don't be Predictable!


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## Matt Stone (Dec 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bod _
> 
> *I read the theory in a Pa Kua Chang book, and I guess Yiliquan footwork theory is Pa Kua Chang based, right?*



Yiliquan is comprised of Baixingquan, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang, but is most heavily influenced by Xingyi and Bagua.


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## yilisifu (Dec 15, 2002)

When you bounce, your ability to time your opponent's movements and strike him at his moment of vulnerability is eliminated.  And it makes YOU vulnerable because HE can easily time YOUR movements.

   Personally, I think those who bounce a lot are watching too much Winnie-the-Pooh:

   "The wonderful things about tiggers
    is tigger are wonderful thing;
    Their tops are made out of rubber,
    their bottoms are made out of springs!
    They bouncey, bouncey, bouncey,.....":rofl:


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 15, 2002)

Brought up by my instructor. Power=mass*acceration. How you get there is up to you  It then turned into a long debate about how in theory it invalidated several arts and how TKD was superior in this regard. (Our jumping, spinning, skipping and turning kicks involve much acceleration and our entire mass) Then I brought up the poing that is not very applicable on the streeet, and some of the arts invalidated have worked past this.. This in turn invalidated TKD. It was an interesting. So we threw away all known laws of physics and put it down to what works works. 

P.S. It was all in theory. Realize that. The point is if it works for you use it, and always remember where you are.


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## Elfan (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Hollywood1340 _
> *Brought up by my instructor. Power=mass*acceration. How you get there is up to you  It then turned into a long debate about how in theory it invalidated several arts and how TKD was superior in this regard. (Our jumping, spinning, skipping and turning kicks involve much acceleration and our entire mass) Then I brought up the poing that is not very applicable on the streeet, and some of the arts invalidated have worked past this.. This in turn invalidated TKD. It was an interesting. So we threw away all known laws of physics and put it down to what works works.
> 
> P.S. It was all in theory. Realize that. The point is if it works for you use it, and always remember where you are. *



FORCE = mass*acceration

POWER= work/time OR force * velocity


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 15, 2002)

Darn it!! Well, yeah. I'm embarresed now. And I still can't spell! Arg!!! But I will return!


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## KennethKu (Dec 16, 2002)

What are you trying to say?

Force = mass*acceleration.

At the moment of impact, momentum= mass* terminal velocity (ie the velocity at that moment of impact, at the end of acceleration.)

If you can accelerate faster, you can hit harder.

How does that invalidate TKD? or any thing?


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## Hollywood1340 (Dec 16, 2002)

I guess it was one of those 'you have to be there' moments.


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## Cthulhu (Dec 17, 2002)

Just some random thoughts on the issue...

I usually see a lot of bouncing at tournaments, or just in the more sportive martial arts events (kickboxing, Muay Thai, etc...grappling events the exception).

I try not to set myself into any pattern of footwork/stances.  The FMA as I'm being trained in them seems to rely more on footwork than actual stances.  However, my Okinawa-te training comes back at times and I'll assume a rather rigid stance.

Stance/footwork is also determined by what your ultimate goal in the enounter is.  Compare karate, FMA, and Kuntao Silat footwork.

I'll bounce a lot if I find it disturbs my opponent.  Likewise, if I keep getting nailed when I bounce, I won't.  

Related to the above, do what your opponent seems least comfortable with.  I've seen some people who have brain-farts against people who assume low stances. 

No more babbling from me.

Cthulhu


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## bdparsons (Dec 17, 2002)

An effective fighting/sparring method is a balance of stability and mobility.  Train to use both aspects to your advantage, but let there be a valid reason why you choose what you do. 

"Bouncing" just for the sake of moving is a waste of energy.  If your trying to limit your exposure by movement, try changing sides frequently instead.  But if you use this method be sure you train to explode offensively from both the left and right sides.

Many, but by no means all, stationary fighters favor countering their opponent.  If you choose to be a counter-attacker make sure you remember to work different angles into your counters (read, movement).  There is a certain logic to this in sparring, but of you're in a self-defense situation on the street, attack, and don't let up until the threat is neutralized.  but be sure to stop when it is.

Above all, differentiate between the friendly sparring match and self-defense.  Different objectives. Though you train your body hard in the school/studio, and you should,  remember that success on the "street" begins from the neck up.

Respects,
Bill Parsons


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## Tony Starks (Dec 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bdparsons _
> 
> Different objectives. Though you train your body hard in the school/studio, and you should,  remember that success on the "street" begins from the neck up.
> 
> ...


 
 thx for everyones feedback, good point mr Parson


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## Elfan (Dec 17, 2002)

Cthulhu, could you elabroate a little on what you put in the "footwork" category?

When I think footwork I think manuvering while stances imply where your legs are relative to your oponent.


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## SpiritFists936 (Oct 29, 2003)

I have found that bouncing, circling, and really any movement besides attacking, or parrying an attack are useless wastes of precious energy and time.  wether your sparring or you are in a real situation you should move minimally, in sparring, a good opponent will start to time your movements, and find your patterns, then attack you when you are in mid air and cant counter, my advice stay on the ground and  relax, the more tense you are the faster you will fatigue, but thats just me


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## Shinzu (Oct 30, 2003)

agreed that you dont want to waste all your energy "bouncing" arouind.  but by moving you are not bouncing.  remember we are not boxing here.  i used to fight flat footed.  now i prefer to bounce slightly.  it has made me quicker and my techniques are less likely to be telegraphed.

also a good fighter just does not move front and back, but he circles and moves sile to side. this makes you less of a target and makes you harder to hit.


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