# Training Outside of Class?



## spidersam (May 30, 2018)

Hi all, I just became a forum member after a few months of reading from the sidelines. Glad I joined.

I started practicing shaolin kung fu last year and recently hit that first, frustrating improvement plateau. Since I started, I attend class three days per week, and the other three days I practice what I've learned in class plus cardio--so about 2 hours training 6 days per week, including stretching. I feel like I haven't seen improvement lately and need to switch it up (ie, weights/different exercises). Just trying to break the plateau and continue getting better.

How do you train outside of class?


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## Headhunter (May 30, 2018)

Well weights isn't going to help improve your skills. Do it if you want to but it won't make your technique any better. You want to get good technique then you have to practice your technique


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## _Simon_ (May 31, 2018)

G'day, welcome to the forums spidersam .

Ah wow, that's quite a schedule as it is... definitely break down your techniques and drills and do them at a pace that you can really get to understand the movements well. Training them in different drills, stances and movements can also help you understand how they work with your body.

It is also possible that you may be overdoing it which can lead to a plateau. Now I am aware of the intense frequent training many have done (and still do) to great effect, but that just isn't suited to everyone, and depends on many factors to work (temperament, willingness, personality, recovery rate, proper implemented recovery, nutrition, CNS/immune system etc).

I would actually suggest toning it down a bit and implementing more rest, may allow your body and mind the break it needs to be able focus better on your techniques when you do train? And more quality training..

Just a suggestion, you can take or leave as applicable


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## spidersam (May 31, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> G'day, welcome to the forums spidersam .
> 
> Ah wow, that's quite a schedule as it is... definitely break down your techniques and drills and do them at a pace that you can really get to understand the movements well. Training them in different drills, stances and movements can also help you understand how they work with your body.
> 
> ...



_Simon_ thank you, that is fair advice. Sometimes it is difficult to read if I've fully recovered or not. Frankly, I'd train 4 hours a day everyday instead of my day job if I could!


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## skribs (May 31, 2018)

What is it that you feel you've plateaued on?  Alternatively, what is it that you want to improve?  For example, is it your rote technique, your speed or power, the scope of your understanding of the material, your ability to read your opponent?

Sometimes you don't feel improvement, but what you're doing is reinforcing the neural pathways on the correct technique.  

But without knowing what your expectations and goals are, it's hard to give advice to reach those.


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## marques (May 31, 2018)

In my mind, martial _arts_ and fitness are different, complementary things. Fitness, usually, really improves at the beginning and then, after a while, it needs a better planning for visible results. (No quick guidelines.)

Martial arts training out of the class: I like to focus on what I think is more important, more challenging, try weird things or just train with different rules (my rules). Lately, I just do what I can...


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## spidersam (May 31, 2018)

skribs said:


> What is it that you feel you've plateaued on?  Alternatively, what is it that you want to improve?  For example, is it your rote technique, your speed or power, the scope of your understanding of the material, your ability to read your opponent?
> 
> Sometimes you don't feel improvement, but what you're doing is reinforcing the neural pathways on the correct technique.
> 
> But without knowing what your expectations and goals are, it's hard to give advice to reach those.



Thanks skribs.  At this time I'm fairly content with my rate of understanding the material and learning the lessons through repetition. I noticed my forms haven't improved for two reasons, flexibility and strength. I stretch everyday (dynamic before and static after) and I find that repeatedly I get close to a split or my highest kick, and then I overstretch a muscle and have to "restart."  This has happened quite a few times. My worry is if I don't stretch enough I won't see change but also see what over stretching does.

As for strength, I had presumed by repeating my forms I would build the strength to rise from, say, a pu bu stance. I feel like I plateaued there and am wondering if I need to vary the workout to improve strength so I'm not wobbly and fatigued. As for speed, I was thinking of doing more bag time to work on speed, but am afraid by moving focus to that other areas will weaken.

Of course I understand progress does not occur overnight. Perhaps I need more fitness and strength training, but fear it will take from technique. Just curious how other folks with more experience train and if I'm focusing on the "right" areas.


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Well weights isn't going to help improve your skills. Do it if you want to but it won't make your technique any better. You want to get good technique then you have to practice your technique


Of course weights will help good skills development, the stronger your are the better your skills will be.And the longer they will stay good before fatigue sets in, I see the fitness doesNt matter lot are out in force


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Thanks skribs.  At this time I'm fairly content with my rate of understanding the material and learning the lessons through repetition. I noticed my forms haven't improved for two reasons, flexibility and strength. I stretch everyday (dynamic before and static after) and I find that repeatedly I get close to a split or my highest kick, and then I overstretch a muscle and have to "restart."  This has happened quite a few times. My worry is if I don't stretch enough I won't see change but also see what over stretching does.
> 
> As for strength, I had presumed by repeating my forms I would build the strength to rise from, say, a pu bu stance. I feel like I plateaued there and am wondering if I need to vary the workout to improve strength so I'm not wobbly and fatigued. As for speed, I was thinking of doing more bag time to work on speed, but am afraid by moving focus to that other areas will weaken.
> 
> Of course I understand progress does not occur overnight. Perhaps I need more fitness and strength training, but fear it will take from technique. Just curious how other folks with more experience train and if I'm focusing on the "right" areas.


Yes you need to improve strength, do a similar movement loaded Regularly and then try it unloaded and it's easier now, fat muscles stretch further than thin muscles, build them up to improve flexibility


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## Xue Sheng (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> How do you train outside of class?



Train what you learned in class, over and over again, until it becomes habit... and you will get better


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## JowGaWolf (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Hi all, I just became a forum member after a few months of reading from the sidelines. Glad I joined.
> 
> I started practicing shaolin kung fu last year and recently hit that first, frustrating improvement plateau. Since I started, I attend class three days per week, and the other three days I practice what I've learned in class plus cardio--so about 2 hours training 6 days per week, including stretching. I feel like I haven't seen improvement lately and need to switch it up (ie, weights/different exercises). Just trying to break the plateau and continue getting better.
> 
> How do you train outside of class?


What are you specifically trying to improve? Sometimes improvement comes with better understanding and not more work.


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## Andrew Green (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Well weights isn't going to help improve your skills. Do it if you want to but it won't make your technique any better. You want to get good technique then you have to practice your technique




Weight training done properly, as in designed to work with the physical requirements of what you are doing will definitely improve your technique.  Not only that it will help prevent injury, and being in better shape lets you train technique more.

Nearly every professional athlete on the planet will incorporate fitness training into what they do, and there is a reason.  It improves their performance.


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## spidersam (May 31, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> What are you specifically trying to improve? Sometimes improvement comes with better understanding and not more work.



Thanks JowGaWolf. I posted a more detailed description of my goals as a reply a few posts earlier in the thread. To sum it up, my main concerns are flexibility and strength/fatigue. With stretching, I keep taking "two steps forward and one step back." I stretch daily but tend to pull muscles quickly and have to "restart." As for strength/fatigue, I feel like for as many times as I run forms over again, I have plateaued in muscle fatigue. I was thinking of working strength through other exercises, but am afraid this will pull from my time spent on technique.


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## JowGaWolf (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Thanks skribs.  At this time I'm fairly content with my rate of understanding the material and learning the lessons through repetition. I noticed my forms haven't improved for two reasons, flexibility and strength. I stretch everyday (dynamic before and static after) and I find that repeatedly I get close to a split or my highest kick, and then I overstretch a muscle and have to "restart."  This has happened quite a few times. My worry is if I don't stretch enough I won't see change but also see what over stretching does.
> 
> As for strength, I had presumed by repeating my forms I would build the strength to rise from, say, a pu bu stance. I feel like I plateaued there and am wondering if I need to vary the workout to improve strength so I'm not wobbly and fatigued. As for speed, I was thinking of doing more bag time to work on speed, but am afraid by moving focus to that other areas will weaken.
> 
> Of course I understand progress does not occur overnight. Perhaps I need more fitness and strength training, but fear it will take from technique. Just curious how other folks with more experience train and if I'm focusing on the "right" areas.


Sounds like a lot of misconceptions on what makes martial arts works.  What you have stated sounds more like a fitness concern than a Martial Arts one.  For example, a split is not Martial Arts.  It's just a split.  So to improve on this you need to look up how to do splits.


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## JowGaWolf (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Thanks JowGaWolf. I posted a more detailed description of my goals as a reply a few posts earlier in the thread. To sum it up, my main concerns are flexibility and strength/fatigue. With stretching, I keep taking "two steps forward and one step back." I stretch daily but tend to pull muscles quickly and have to "restart." As for strength/fatigue, I feel like for as many times as I run forms over again, I have plateaued in muscle fatigue. I was thinking of working strength through other exercises, but am afraid this will pull from my time spent on technique.


 muscle fatigue can be caused from overuse.  schedule your conditioning in a way that will allow your muscles to recover.


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## spidersam (May 31, 2018)

Andrew Green said:


> Weight training done properly, as in designed to work with the physical requirements of what you are doing will definitely improve your technique.  Not only that it will help prevent injury, and being in better shape lets you train technique more.
> 
> Nearly every professional athlete on the planet will incorporate fitness training into what they do, and there is a reason.  It improves their performance.



Thanks Andrew Green for the pointers. It is good to see the comparison of martial arts to other sports and think of it that way


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## spidersam (May 31, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> muscle fatigue can be caused from overuse.  schedule your conditioning in a way that will allow your muscles to recover.



JowGaWolf. Thanks that makes sense. This is specific but I'm just curious... do you or others on here kick every day, or do you give your legs a break from dynamic stretching a few days a week?


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## JowGaWolf (May 31, 2018)

I think I read somewhere that the OP wanted to improve punching speed.  Learn how to punch relaxed and with good timing.  The better your timing is the faster your pinches will reach the target.  Punching a bag fast isn't going to help.  Think of it this way.  boxers who punch speed bags do so with good timing.


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## JowGaWolf (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> JowGaWolf. Thanks that makes sense. This is specific but I'm just curious... do you or others on here kick every day, or do you give your legs a break from dynamic stretching a few days a week?


I give my legs a break by working on less demanding leg activities.  I don't kick everyday and I don't do stances everyday.  well more specifically I don't do low stances everyday.   Some days are hard training days and other days are light days.


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> JowGaWolf. Thanks that makes sense. This is specific but I'm just curious... do you or others on here kick every day, or do you give your legs a break from dynamic stretching a few days a week?


Kicking is dynamic stretching, you don't really have to do both, other than as a warm up, set you bag up at a height that chalkenging, or stick some yellow tape on it at the height you want and kick it. Every thing needs rest, more Haist less speed


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## JowGaWolf (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> JowGaWolf. Thanks that makes sense. This is specific but I'm just curious... do you or others on here kick every day, or do you give your legs a break from dynamic stretching a few days a week?


Oh also with stretching you don't want to go hard with that.  Going too hard with stretches causes big tears in the muscles and causes injuries with take time.  It also creates scar tissue which is less flexible.


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## skribs (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Thanks skribs.  At this time I'm fairly content with my rate of understanding the material and learning the lessons through repetition. I noticed my forms haven't improved for two reasons, flexibility and strength. I stretch everyday (dynamic before and static after) and I find that repeatedly I get close to a split or my highest kick, and then I overstretch a muscle and have to "restart."  This has happened quite a few times. My worry is if I don't stretch enough I won't see change but also see what over stretching does.
> 
> As for strength, I had presumed by repeating my forms I would build the strength to rise from, say, a pu bu stance. I feel like I plateaued there and am wondering if I need to vary the workout to improve strength so I'm not wobbly and fatigued. As for speed, I was thinking of doing more bag time to work on speed, but am afraid by moving focus to that other areas will weaken.
> 
> Of course I understand progress does not occur overnight. Perhaps I need more fitness and strength training, but fear it will take from technique. Just curious how other folks with more experience train and if I'm focusing on the "right" areas.



For stretching, what you want to do is slowly increase the amount of stretch in a session.  One thing I did when I was a yellow/purple belt in Taekwondo is I would lay on my back, put my butt up against the wall, and let gravity help me with my splits.  It wasn't enough that it was painful, but I'd play Dominion on my phone or scroll through Facebook posts for about 5-10 minutes and then get up.  I did this a few times a day, and within a few months my side kicks were much improved.  Where you run into problems of over-stretching is when you quickly stretch to your maximum instead of slowly getting there.

For strength, your forms build muscle memory and I think help shape your muscles in the way you want them to go, but they won't increase your strength as much as pumping iron.  I think it's a mix of the two - some focus purely on the physical workout and some focus on the skill itself - that makes it work.  Personally, I don't work out.  Between my day job and 4 hours of teaching/taking classes, I don't really have the time or energy to do so.  But I understand that my punch is a lot weaker than it would be if I was working on the bench three times a week.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> How do you train outside of class?


Can you find sparring/wrestling partners that you can spar/wrestle 15 rounds daily?

If you can't, for your MA skill, you can use

- solo drills to "polish" it.
- equipment training to "enhance" it.


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## Headhunter (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Of course weights will help good skills development, the stronger your are the better your skills will be.And the longer they will stay good before fatigue sets in, I see the fitness doesNt matter lot are out in force


Lol don't pretend you know a thing about me I'm the fittest guy at my club and I'm running a half marathon next week so don't go assuming I don't know anything about fitness


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Lol don't pretend you know a thing about me I'm the fittest guy at my club and I'm running a half marathon next week so don't go assuming I don't know anything about fitness


So if your so clued up why did you say weights won't help develop skills, ?


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## skribs (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Kicking is dynamic stretching, you don't really have to do both, other than as a warm up, set you bag up at a height that chalkenging, or stick some yellow tape on it at the height you want and kick it. Every thing needs rest, more Haist less speed



There's a difference in the motion for a kick and the motion for a dynamic stretch.


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## Hanshi (May 31, 2018)

Be gentle with yourself and stretch gently.  Always work up a bit of a sweat BEFORE you stretch.  Train your techniques and don't worry about weights; they can come later.  Progress is measured in years; and others will see your improvement long before you do.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Thanks skribs.  At this time I'm fairly content with my rate of understanding the material and learning the lessons through repetition. I noticed my forms haven't improved for two reasons, flexibility and strength. I stretch everyday (dynamic before and static after) and I find that repeatedly I get close to a split or my highest kick, and then I overstretch a muscle and have to "restart."  This has happened quite a few times. My worry is if I don't stretch enough I won't see change but also see what over stretching does.
> 
> As for strength, I had presumed by repeating my forms I would build the strength to rise from, say, a pu bu stance. I feel like I plateaued there and am wondering if I need to vary the workout to improve strength so I'm not wobbly and fatigued. As for speed, I was thinking of doing more bag time to work on speed, but am afraid by moving focus to that other areas will weaken.
> 
> Of course I understand progress does not occur overnight. Perhaps I need more fitness and strength training, but fear it will take from technique. Just curious how other folks with more experience train and if I'm focusing on the "right" areas.


Bodyweight exercise will give quick gains at first, but you'll absolutely plateah, because you're doing the same exercise with roughly the same weight over and over. Find a way to increase the intensity. Practice explosive rising from that stance (outside the form). Practice holding that stance a long time (to reduce fatigue in the stance that makes it harder to rise out). Find a weight-bearing exercise that uses the same muslces - or just hold some light (and later, heavier) weights while practicing rising out of the stance.

Now translate that to other areas where you feel more strength would help your form.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

Hanshi said:


> Be gentle with yourself and stretch gently.  Always work up a bit of a sweat BEFORE you stretch.  Train your techniques and don't worry about weights; they can come later.  Progress is measured in years; and others will see your improvement long before you do.


And stretches should feel good, or have slight discomfort. They should never actually have pain. Also, pay attention to what is bearing the stretch. You want to feel it deep in the muscle, not near the attachment points.


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## Headhunter (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> So if your so clued up why did you say weights won't help develop skills, ?


Because they don't...if I have a crap roundhouse kick lifting weights isn't going to make my kick any better


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

skribs said:


> There's a difference in the motion for a kick and the motion for a dynamic stretch.


No there's not, if your are kicking that's dynamic, if you Are stretching while kicking that a dynamic stretch, what definition of dynamic are you using ?


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Because they don't...if I have a crap roundhouse kick lifting weights isn't going to make my kick any better


Putting weights on the ankle will


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## drop bear (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Because they don't...if I have a crap roundhouse kick lifting weights isn't going to make my kick any better



If you have stronger legs your kick is going to be better.


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## skribs (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> No there's not, if your are kicking that's dynamic, if you Are stretching while kicking that a dynamic stretch, what definition of dynamic are you using ?



Because dynamic stretching serves the purpose of increasing the maximum point at which you can stretch your leg, and kicking is focused on the technique of kicking.  If I want to work on my front kick, I will do a stretching axe kick for the stretch, and then front kick in order to get the kick in.  I guarantee you I get more of a stretch out of the swinging motion, and my stretch kick can go higher than my actual kick.

Same thing for side kick or back kick.  I will swing my leg up for a stretch side kick, I will chamber and push for an actual side kick.

There's other motions as well.  The motion for a stretching crescent kick is a wide sweeping motion, where I'll use a quicker, more targeted motion for an actual kick.

The muscles stretch differently when you do a swinging motion for a stretch kick than when you chamber and snap.  I don't really see how anyone can do a front kick and then an axe kick and go "yeah, the stretch feels the same."  Unless you're doing one of the kicks wrong and both look the same, too.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Putting weights on the ankle will


The roundhouse kick and ankle weight can hurt your knee joint big time.


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

skribs said:


> Because dynamic stretching serves the purpose of increasing the maximum point at which you can stretch your leg, and kicking is focused on the technique of kicking.  If I want to work on my front kick, I will do a stretching axe kick for the stretch, and then front kick in order to get the kick in.  I guarantee you I get more of a stretch out of the swinging motion, and my stretch kick can go higher than my actual kick.
> 
> Same thing for side kick or back kick.  I will swing my leg up for a stretch side kick, I will chamber and push for an actual side kick.
> 
> ...


If your purpose for stretching is to kick higher, then there's no point stretching it any other direction than the one you want to kick in, 

It's is both a) dynamic and b) a stretch is there Fore a dynamic stretch


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The roundhouse kick and ankle weight can hurt your knee joint big time.


Only if they are silly heavy, if a light weight damage your knee, your knee as already damaged


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Only if they are silly heavy, if a light weight damage your knee, your knee as already damaged


Heavy is a relative term. It's not an absolute term.

The fast speed and heavy weight don't go together. IMO, this weight training can help your roundhouse kick.


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## pdg (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Only if they are silly heavy, if a light weight damage your knee, your knee as already damaged



I can agree with this 

If you have any notion whatsoever of practicing for self defence reasons, you absolutely need to kick weighted.

Why?

Shoes.

If you can't kick with weights, you can't kick with shoes.

If you are called upon to defend yourself, you aren't likely to have time to get your shoes off.

My work boots weigh nigh on a kilo each, and I regularly practice in the garden wearing them.


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## pdg (May 31, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Heavy is a relative term. It's not an absolute term.
> 
> The fast speed and heavy weight don't go together. IMO, this weight training can help your roundhouse kick.



That is possibly one of the most knee damaging exercises available...


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## Headhunter (May 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you have stronger legs your kick is going to be better.


No it will just have more power doesn't mean the technique will be any better


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can agree with this
> 
> If you have any notion whatsoever of practicing for self defence reasons, you absolutely need to kick weighted.
> 
> ...


Glad it's not just me


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No it will just have more power doesn't mean the technique will be any better


The intention is to hurt, if your stronger legs hurt more than your weaker legs then the technique has improved


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Heavy is a relative term. It's not an absolute term.
> 
> The fast speed and heavy weight don't go together. IMO, this weight training can help your roundhouse kick.


To heAvy for your knees is a Fairly exact term, thing are or are not,


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## skribs (May 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> No it will just have more power doesn't mean the technique will be any better



This is why I said both are important for a strong kick.  You need the technique to efficiently deliver that power...but you also need that power to deliver.


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## skribs (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> If your purpose for stretching is to kick higher, then there's no point stretching it any other direction than the one you want to kick in,
> 
> It's is both a) dynamic and b) a stretch is there Fore a dynamic stretch



A front kick is NOT a stretch.  Just because you're reaching your limit for how high you can kick doesn't make it a stretch, any more than punching as hard as you can is not a muscle-building exercise.

A straight axe kick increases flexibility in the direction of a front kick.
A stretch kick to the side increases flexibility you will need for a side kick.
The same for a kick to the back.

The difference is that the extension being there from the start with the stretching motion gives you stretch that gradually increases as you swing, and then is gradually released when you return.  Whereas for a front kick, there's only a split second where you're at maximum stretch and there's no time for your muscles to expand.

To use a rubber band as an example:

Static stretching is pulling the rubber band and holding it under tension
Dynamic stretching is pulling the rubber band and letting tension bring it back
Kicking is snapping the rubber band
It's a completely different result on your muscles.


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## jobo (May 31, 2018)

skribs said:


> A front kick is NOT a stretch.  Just because you're reaching your limit for how high you can kick doesn't make it a stretch, any more than punching as hard as you can is not a muscle-building exercise.
> 
> A straight axe kick increases flexibility in the direction of a front kick.
> A stretch kick to the side increases flexibility you will need for a side kick.
> ...


I only got as far as the first bit, so God knows what else is wrong, if you are STRETCHING when you kick it's a stretch, what else could it be and punching very hard is a good muscle builder, if it overloads the muscle what else could IT be


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Putting weights on the ankle will


If the kick is decent, that might help. If it sucks, that might make it worse. If it sucks because balance is bad, that might make it better.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you have stronger legs your kick is going to be better.


Stronger bad kick > weaker bad kick. Every day.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 31, 2018)

skribs said:


> You need the technique to efficiently deliver that power...but you also need that power to deliver.


The technique is the 50%. The ability is the other 50%. You can develop your technique in class. You can only develop your ability at home.

You can develop your foot sweep ability at home by using this special training equipment.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> If your purpose for stretching is to kick higher, then there's no point stretching it any other direction than the one you want to kick in,
> 
> It's is both a) dynamic and b) a stretch is there Fore a dynamic stretch


It's difficult to stretch the most important muscles for front-kick height during a front kick. They are stressed too late in the kick. The swinging kick puts stress on them earlier, allowing more stretch to them. For most folks, that's going to provide much faster returns on kick height, relaxation, and speed, than attempting to stretch within the offending kick.


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## dvcochran (May 31, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Hi all, I just became a forum member after a few months of reading from the sidelines. Glad I joined.
> 
> I started practicing shaolin kung fu last year and recently hit that first, frustrating improvement plateau. Since I started, I attend class three days per week, and the other three days I practice what I've learned in class plus cardio--so about 2 hours training 6 days per week, including stretching. I feel like I haven't seen improvement lately and need to switch it up (ie, weights/different exercises). Just trying to break the plateau and continue getting better.
> 
> How do you train outside of class?



If your Dojo uses them what belt color are you? I used to speak often about the green belt paradox. It is around that time the average student starts to realize they know a little bit and at the same time not very much. You have gotten to where you are able to compare your skills against others, usually higher belts instead of just trying to get through class. Don’t beat yourself up. As others have said, if the normal class structure isn’t providing the goals you need, talk to your instructor and senior belts. It is a big part of the fellowship.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

pdg said:


> I can agree with this
> 
> If you have any notion whatsoever of practicing for self defence reasons, you absolutely need to kick weighted.
> 
> ...


I only wear shoes two sizes too big, so I can step out of them at any danger. Plays hell with my running, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If your Dojo uses them what belt color are you? I used to speak often about the green belt paradox. It is around that time the average student starts to realize they know a little bit and at the same time not very much. You have gotten to where you are able to compare your skills against others, usually higher belts instead of just trying to get through class. Don’t beat yourself up. As others have said, if the normal class structure isn’t providing the goals you need, talk to your instructor and senior belts. It is a big part of the fellowship.


Where does green belt fall in your ranking?


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## dvcochran (May 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Where does green belt fall in your ranking?



First green is 6th Gup. Two green belts.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> First green is 6th Gup. Two green belts.


That doesn't mean anything to me, I'm sorry. Where does it fall? How long to actually get to it under "normal" circumstances?


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## spidersam (May 31, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> If your Dojo uses them what belt color are you? I used to speak often about the green belt paradox. It is around that time the average student starts to realize they know a little bit and at the same time not very much. You have gotten to where you are able to compare your skills against others, usually higher belts instead of just trying to get through class. Don’t beat yourself up. As others have said, if the normal class structure isn’t providing the goals you need, talk to your instructor and senior belts. It is a big part of the fellowship.



sounds like you nailed it


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## drop bear (May 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Stronger bad kick > weaker bad kick. Every day.



Yeah. I have trained with a few muscle boys who kick like horses.

Figuratively and literally.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The technique is the 50%. The ability is the other 50%. You can develop your technique in class. You can only develop your ability at home.
> 
> You can develop your foot sweep ability at home by using this special training equipment.


I definitely wouldn't use something like that.   My entire perspective on sweeps is that it's not a brute strength technique.  Sweeps take advantage of the opponent's weak root and imbalance.  Better time would be spent to learning how to recognize when this exists and developing the timing.

If you want to develop ability then you have to do so with a training partner.  If you just want to be able to do the movement then you can train that on your own through drills, but it won't be enough to know how to apply it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. I have trained with a few muscle boys who kick like horses.
> 
> Figuratively and literally.


If their kicks suck, they might be easy to see and avoid. But if you don't (and they actually can kick at all) it's a bad day. If they have any soccer experience, you can count on them being able to put together some sort of useful kick, even if the technique isn't very good from a fighting standpoint.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I definitely wouldn't use something like that.   My entire perspective on sweeps is that it's not a brute strength technique.  Sweeps take advantage of the opponent's weak root and imbalance.  Better time would be spent to learning how to recognize when this exists and developing the timing.
> 
> If you want to develop ability then you have to do so with a training partner.  If you just want to be able to do the movement then you can train that on your own through drills, but it won't be enough to know how to apply it.


I think the point of that training is to be able to sweep even someone who is resisting the sweep (and knows how). It's counter to my approach and training, but I see that philosophy in a lot of the comments John shares from his instructor(s). And there's a certain brute elegance to it.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> And stretches should feel good, or have slight discomfort. They should never actually have pain. Also, pay attention to what is bearing the stretch. You want to feel it deep in the muscle, not near the attachment points.



When I had an actual strength trainer, one of the biggest things he stressed was warmup. Especially muscles rely on fresh, oxygenated blood to work. Getting a sweat going and respective muscle group(s) warm and moving prepares them for the next level of stretch and exercise. No stretching is involved yet. Someone mentioned laying flat of the back with legs on the wall. A good verifier of how much difference the warmup makes, do the stretch before the warmup and then after and see how much easier, less painful, and better the stretch is. There is real science to all the jackets and hoodies you usually seen fighters using before stepping into the ring.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

skribs said:


> Because dynamic stretching serves the purpose of increasing the maximum point at which you can stretch your leg, and kicking is focused on the technique of kicking.  If I want to work on my front kick, I will do a stretching axe kick for the stretch, and then front kick in order to get the kick in.  I guarantee you I get more of a stretch out of the swinging motion, and my stretch kick can go higher than my actual kick.
> 
> Same thing for side kick or back kick.  I will swing my leg up for a stretch side kick, I will chamber and push for an actual side kick.
> 
> ...


I agree with your comment, but it would be more accurate to say you use different muscles with a swing kick vs. a front kick.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> If you have stronger legs your kick is going to be better.


The theory is sound. Drop a baseball on my foot and I will feel it but not much. Drop a concrete block on my foot and damage will be done. However, how many times have we seen the big guy who could not use his power to complete the simplest of breaks? Then the peewee gets up and, with better technique and mental capacity makes the same break easily? I know, perfect environment and all but it is true. So in a SD situation, if mental capacity being the same I will take the extra strength every time. But if the big guy locks up he is in more trouble. The peewee runs much faster.


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The theory is sound. Drop a baseball on my foot and I will feel it but not much. Drop a concrete block on my foot and damage will be done. However, how many times have we seen the big guy who could not use his power to complete the simplest of breaks? Then the peewee gets up and, with better technique and mental capacity makes the same break easily? I know, perfect environment and all but it is true. So in a SD situation, if mental capacity being the same I will take the extra strength every time. But if the big guy locks up he is in more trouble. The peewee runs much faster.


Well no, not really, light people can be faster over a few feet, theY can also change direction more quickly, but if the big guy has TRAined his legs to run, he will almost certainly be quicker Over say 50 yards

It's sprint training that matters and then the power to weight ratio


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's difficult to stretch the most important muscles for front-kick height during a front kick. They are stressed too late in the kick. The swinging kick puts stress on them earlier, allowing more stretch to them. For most folks, that's going to provide much faster returns on kick height, relaxation, and speed, than attempting to stretch within the offending kick.


Well yes and no, as you most certainly know, restrictions on range of movement arise mostly from the NERvouss system, not the muscles themselves.  Dynamic stretching will do little to reprogram the NERvouss system, so the TIMe of the Dynamic stretch is irrelevant, It's the fact you are pumping blood in to the muscle that is benifical,

static stretching is the way to go, if you want to make serious inroads. The problem being that static stretcheS mess with your nervous system and wreck your co ordination. So shouldn't be done just before you want to kick some thing.

The only bIT if a dynamic stretch that counts AS a " stretch" is the last couple of mm, everything else is already in your normal range of motion, it's just warning up the muscle that's benificial. It's matters not if you aRe warming the muscle and stretchIng it 2 Mm doing dynamic stretches or actually kicking some thing, the effect is exactly the same


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## skribs (Jun 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I agree with your comment, but it would be more accurate to say you use different muscles with a swing kick vs. a front kick.



You do.  And the ones that are going to be more important for flexibility will be used more.


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## skribs (Jun 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> The theory is sound. Drop a baseball on my foot and I will feel it but not much. Drop a concrete block on my foot and damage will be done. However, how many times have we seen the big guy who could not use his power to complete the simplest of breaks? Then the peewee gets up and, with better technique and mental capacity makes the same break easily? I know, perfect environment and all but it is true. So in a SD situation, if mental capacity being the same I will take the extra strength every time. But if the big guy locks up he is in more trouble. The peewee runs much faster.



Do we live in a world where people can ONLY do martial arts or ONLY do weight training?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well yes and no, as you most certainly know, restrictions on range of movement arise mostly from the NERvouss system, not the muscles themselves.  Dynamic stretching will do little to reprogram the NERvouss system, so the TIMe of the Dynamic stretch is irrelevant, It's the fact you are pumping blood in to the muscle that is benifical,


While the nervous system does create some restraints to range of motion, the muscles actually create others (by their length and elasticity). For those of us with the latter restraints as our limiting factor, that's what stretching is for. You're no longer really talking about stretching, but about gaining range of motion. Related, but not the same thing.


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## skribs (Jun 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While the nervous system does create some restraints to range of motion, the muscles actually create others (by their length and elasticity). For those of us with the latter restraints as our limiting factor, that's what stretching is for. You're no longer really talking about stretching, but about gaining range of motion. Related, but not the same thing.



How are they different, by your definition?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I definitely wouldn't use something like that.   My entire perspective on sweeps is that it's not a brute strength technique.  Sweeps take advantage of the opponent's weak root and imbalance.  Better time would be spent to learning how to recognize when this exists and developing the timing.


You have to learn how to create 1000 lb force first before you can learn how to use 4 oz force to deal with 1000 lb. Many people try to by pass the 1st step training and end with "only theory".

Here is a single head training for foot sweep.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think the point of that training is to be able to sweep even someone who is resisting the sweep (and knows how). It's counter to my approach and training, but I see that philosophy in a lot of the comments John shares from his instructor(s). And there's a certain brute elegance to it.


I've never seen a sweep that uses brute force like that in real life application


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have to learn how to create 1000 lb force first before you can learn how to use 4 oz force to deal with 1000 lb. Many people try to by pass the 1st step training and end with "only theory".
> 
> Here is a single head training for foot sweep.


I have tons of video with effective sweeps and i can tell you right off the back I'm not creating 1000lb force with any of my sweeps.  If I could generate that much force with a sweep then I would just opt to kick your leg and smash it with 1000lb of force.  The picture that you show with the guy kicking the stick and stone looks more like a soft technique and not a sweep.  For example, if I want to pick up  your leg by using my leg, then my leg must be strong enough to lift the weight of your leg.  That doesn't look like training for a sweep.  It looks similar to what I was doing with the heavy bag when i was flipping it using a similar motion.  To me these are foot hooks.that lift.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have tons of video with effective sweeps and i can tell you right off the back I'm not creating 1000lb force with any of my sweeps.  If I could generate that much force with a sweep then I would just opt to kick your leg and smash it with 1000lb of force.  The picture that you show with the guy kicking the stick and stone looks more like a soft technique and not a sweep.  For example, if I want to pick up  your leg by using my leg, then my leg must be strong enough to lift the weight of your leg.  That doesn't look like training for a sweep.  It looks similar to what I was doing with the heavy bag when i was flipping it using a similar motion.  To me these are foot hooks.that lift.



Yeah, 1000lb of force is 4448.22 newtons, which is enough force to break a human femur. If you could generate that much force (bearing in mind you would also suffer a similar force) I wouldn't be worried about sweeping a leg.....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> To me these are foot hooks.that lift.


If you start from a shin bite by locking your instep behind your opponent's ankle. After that whether you want to use soft sweep such as:

1. horizontal scoop,
2. 45 degree upward scoop,
3. vertical sticky kick.

will be up to you. If you generate speed and power before your leg contacts your opponent's leg (your foot sweep starts before the shin bite), that will be a hard sweep.

So soft sweep, or hard sweep depends on when do you start your power generation.


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

skribs said:


> How are they different, by your definition?


I think he means, that dynamic stretching is to warm the mMuscle and fill it full of blood, both of which will make it more eleastic, but it won't alter your Actual range of motion, in the long term , That needs static streyching


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> While the nervous system does create some restraints to range of motion, the muscles actually create others (by their length and elasticity). For those of us with the latter restraints as our limiting factor, that's what stretching is for. You're no longer really talking about stretching, but about gaining range of motion. Related, but not the same thing.


Eer, it's said that under general anesthesia thAt every one Is as supple as a new born baby, alcohol also works quite well as its depressed the serious system, I'm not saying that inelastic muscles army an issue, just that they are not the main issue, as the never get to stretch as theNervious system won't let them And at least generally you can't lengthen muscles, damaged muscles perhaps, but you can stretch your hamstring for ever, it will never get any longer, it's fixed at either end and that's it's lengh,, but you can get the ns, to give a greater range of motion


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You have to learn how to create 1000 lb force first before you can learn how to use 4 oz force to deal with 1000 lb. Many people try to by pass the 1st step training and end with "only theory".
> 
> Here is a single head training for foot sweep.


If you were generatinga,1000 lbs of force, then that but on the end would weight a thousand pounds, where I doubt it weighs 100lbs


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> If you were generatinga,1000 lbs of force, then that but on the end would weight a thousand pounds, where I doubt it weighs 100lbs


If you are as rich as Bill Gate, you don't need to borrow money.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no, not really, light people can be faster over a few feet, theY can also change direction more quickly, but if the big guy has TRAined his legs to run, he will almost certainly be quicker Over say 50 yards
> 
> It's sprint training that matters and then the power to weight ratio



How many “big” Olympic sprinter have you ever seen?


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## spidersam (Jun 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> How many “big” Olympic sprinter have you ever seen?



From my speculation of the comments in this thread... It sounds like, in regards to martial arts, it wouldn't be about getting *big*. It would be about getting an efficient, balanced amount of muscle for your body mass


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> How many “big” Olympic sprinter have you ever seen?


All of them are pretty big,But let's settle for Ben Johnson, he was BIG ( unnaturally so)they certainly couldn't be described as peewee, so they are by default BIG, using the only two measures you gave


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

spidersam said:


> From my speculation of the comments in this thread... It sounds like, in regards to martial arts, it wouldn't be about getting *big*. It would be about getting an efficient, balanced amount of muscle for your body mass


Yes, but not just ma, it's pOWEr athletes in general, If your developed muscles will accelerate your mass, including your developed muscle your fast at least for relatively short distances


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Yeah, 1000lb of force is 4448.22 newtons, which is enough force to break a human femur. If you could generate that much force (bearing in mind you would also suffer a similar force) I wouldn't be worried about sweeping a leg.....


I was trying to remember the most powerful kick I have ever heard of. I think it was in the 400lb range.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Eer, it's said that under general anesthesia thAt every one Is as supple as a new born baby, alcohol also works quite well as its depressed the serious system, I'm not saying that inelastic muscles army an issue, just that they are not the main issue, as the never get to stretch as theNervious system won't let them And at least generally you can't lengthen muscles, damaged muscles perhaps, but you can stretch your hamstring for ever, it will never get any longer, it's fixed at either end and that's it's lengh,, but you can get the ns, to give a greater range of motion


Increasing stretch is lengthening muscle. How else do you think you go from a 80° to a 100° stretch? Something, a lot of things have to move.


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## jobo (Jun 1, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Increasing stretch is lengthening muscle. How else do you think you go from a 80° to a 100° stretch? Something, a lot of things have to move.


The muscle, unless your are injured or have some unfortunate Genetic condition /disease, is already that lenGth, the only thing that stops it from going in to position is your NERvious.  system

If it was possible to make a muscle longer, it would go all floppy and hanG down when you put your leg down, as it's now to long for your standing leg


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> The muscle, unless your are injured or have some unfortunate Genetic condition /disease, is already that lenGth, the only thing that stops it from going in to position is your NERvious.  system
> 
> If it was possible to make a muscle longer, it would go all floppy and hanG down when you put your leg down, as it's now to long for your standing leg


You are way over exaggerating the condition. Through stretching the muscle learns to lengthen, then when not stretching it return to its "normal" length. Think of when you bend at the knee. The quad lengthens then retracts.
In the muscle is sinew, collections of fibrous material that are packed with nerves. The sinew is literally broken when stretched far enough. It triggers the body to release lactic acid in higher quantities that aggravates the muscle. This is the soreness we feel. As we age the muscles loose their ability to stretch and, I agree, for some the nerves get messed up and trigger more and often quicker to prevent injury.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 1, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> My entire perspective on sweeps is that it's not a brute strength technique.


The old man swept behind his opponent's upper leg instead of behind his opponent's ankle. This kind of sweep require some sweeping power that you may call it brute force.

Try to sweep behind your opponent's upper leg and take him down. You will know what I'm talking about.

Why do you want to sweep behind your opponent's upper leg instead of behind his ankle? It will be harder for him to step out and escape.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The old man swept behind his opponent's upper leg instead of behind his opponent's ankle. This kind of sweep require some sweeping power that you may call it brute force.
> 
> Try to sweep behind your opponent's upper leg. You will know what I'm talking about.


Play the video in slow motion and you'll see that it doesn't require as much as one would assume.  I'm familiar with this sweep and the basic concept of it is the same.

Break your opponent's root
Get him off balance
Time the sweep.
The first one is optional as an opponent may actually break their own root.
Here's what happens int he video (I'm watching it in slow motion)
*Step 1: Break your opponent's root.* - Succeeds in doing this as he breaks the root of his opponent's left leg.  He also enter's his opponent's stance which will later on interfere with the retreat.

*Step 2: Get him off balance*. - In an attempt to regain the root his opponent takes a narrow stance which means his opponent will not be able to have a strong root due to bad stance.  @0:02   Same time frame his opponent tries to move his lead leg but must do so in a bad way because he literally has to step over a leg to retreat.  At the same time the opponent retreats, the "fighter" in the black pants tilts his opponent in a direction where there is least resistance.  In this case countering backward movement with side movement.  Now his opponent is off balance.  If you watch carefully you can see him off balance before the sweep actually makes contact.

*Step 3: Time the sweep* - Sweeps do not require a lot of power when Step 1 and Step 2 exist.  Sometimes only Step 1 and Step 3 are needed.  However they are time sensitive as your opponent will try to regain balance, structure, and root.  If you get the timing right then your opponent will float in the air because they will have nothing to available to resist the sweep. 

Pick any video of someone sweeping another and you'll see at least 2 of these 3 steps.  
Application of the sweep.  You can see they aren't putting a lot of power into the sweeps.  There just isn't any need to. 





This one you would need more strength for, but it's lifting strength and timing for the getting the leg to stick.  





With that said there are some harder impact sweeps, which I don't do because i simply don't have the shin conditioning required for it.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

Some interesting conversations developing .

For what it's worth, I would say range of control is more important than range of motion. If one cannot control the surrounding and primary muscles at the lengthened position (due to lack of strength in that end position), injuries can happen easily, as the joint is not properly supported at those ends. Focusing too much on static stretching is sort of like forcing your body into those end positions without developing the necessary strength to support that end range of motion.

Range of control is your ability to control the movement all the way at every point through to the end of that range, and without this type of training, if you find yourself doing a technique and approach the end of the range with power having only done static stretching, as the muscle lengthens rapidly, it can freak out and "seize"/tighten up due to a survival response, as it doesn't know how to control things at that point (of course the muscles don't freak out, just a manner of speaking, more CNS related), and injuries, overtightness and spasms occur.

Dynamic-type stretching and more focus on mobility work helps to develop range of control, and I definitely think dynamic stretching has a very important place.


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I was trying to remember the most powerful kick I have ever heard of. I think it was in the 400lb range.



How was that measured and what type of kick?

How about a TKD turning kick (roundhouse) being measured as delivering over 1000kg (2200lb) of force?


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## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> How was that measured and what type of kick?
> 
> How about a TKD turning kick (roundhouse) being measured as delivering over 1000kg (2200lb) of force?


Machines like this can measure:






I'm unsure however what the numbers mean, he reached 135, but dunno what that's measuring...


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Machines like this can measure:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Without knowing what 135 refers to it's pretty meaningless...

Is it speed? KMH or MPH?

Force? KG or lb?

How many times he kicked it before that clip?

Number of cotton strands in his laces?


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Machines like this can measure:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If I had to guess, I'd say it was measuring in either Pounds or Kilograms of force. 135 Pounds of force is 600 newtons, and 135KGs of force is 1323 newtons. Either way It's no where close to the 4000 newtons it would take to break a major bone in your body.


----------



## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Without knowing what 135 refers to it's pretty meaningless...
> 
> Is it speed? KMH or MPH?
> 
> ...





Midnight-shadow said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say it was measuring in either Pounds or Kilograms of force. 135 Pounds of force is 600 newtons, and 135KGs of force is 1323 newtons. Either way It's no where close to the 4000 newtons it would take to break a major bone in your body.



Googling the specs of the PowerKube, I'd say it's reaction time...


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Googling the specs of the PowerKube, I'd say it's reaction time...



Really? Reaction time doesn't equate to power. Anyway, here's a better test of power for those interested: 




Comparing the Capoeira kick to the traditional Roundhouse kick was very interesting. The Roundhouse was faster, but the Capoeira kick produced more force against the bag.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Without knowing what 135 refers to it's pretty meaningless...
> 
> Is it speed? KMH or MPH?
> 
> ...


Hehe no idea! But it is called a power station, just putting an example of machines that can measure kicks. Hmm I don't think it's reaction-time though..


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Really? Reaction time doesn't equate to power. Anyway, here's a better test of power for those interested:



That's the one I was originally referring to - just ignore the BS false conclusion at the end (and forgive the Karate guy for choosing a silly kick...)


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## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Really? Reaction time doesn't equate to power. Anyway, here's a better test of power for those interested:


Haha ah I only just thought of that clip and then you posted it up, nice XD. Damn, dem kicks...


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe no idea! But it is called a power station, just putting an example of machines that can measure kicks. Hmm I don't think it's reaction-time though..



I welcome any other conclusion:

PowerKube - Strikecoach


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## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> I welcome any other conclusion:
> 
> PowerKube - Strikecoach


Ah cool, well there ya go! I wasn't saying it can't measure reaction speed, I was saying in this clip I don't think it was. He would kick, then there would be a noise, but he wasn't reacting to the noise.


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah cool, well there ya go! I wasn't saying it can't measure reaction speed, I was saying in this clip I don't think it was. He would kick, then there would be a noise, but he wasn't reacting to the noise.



I didn't have the sound on, so all I saw was the flashing screen.

From the specs pictures, that was the only number that made sense (and I really can't see his kicks generating so little power as 135 lb or 135 kg).


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> That's the one I was originally referring to - just ignore the BS false conclusion at the end (and forgive the Karate guy for choosing a silly kick...)



Yeah I kinda ignored the front kick, which was obviously going to be less powerful than a roundhouse, no matter who uses it.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> I didn't have the sound on, so all I saw was the flashing screen.
> 
> From the specs pictures, that was the only number that made sense (and I really can't see his kicks generating so little power as 135 lb or 135 kg).


Ah yeah fair enough, yeah not sure, unless it's some arbitrary scale specifically for that machine...

Ahhh here we go, pretty cool:


-----

"How do we measure it?

The Impossible Measurement
The phrases 'Pounds per square inch' and Newtonian Force are not relevant for measuring human performance. They are only relevant where the target area is solid and immoveable like a hammer or a tank. It is a largely useless term in the athletic environment where precious humans, from celebrity players to the all important you, shouldn't strike a hard unmoving object, unless you wish to experience impact damage.

The solution
Our development team created a new method of defining human impact power using controlled compression technology. Recording multiple inputs throughout the range of a strike from initiation, delivery and finish we are able to capture the full picture of an impact. Powerful mathematical equations were used to render the data into useable athlete performance feedback.

Research & Development
Each StrikeCoach product featuring the StrikeMate unit is scientifically calibrated to ensure that it accurately and consistently measures each impact. This calibration is based on the result of 7 years of Cambridge based scientific research and development. This research created the Franklin unit, a combined measurement that is a credible and usable scale to measure athletic performance."

(Next page)

"StrikeCoach has for the first time, overcome the two major obstacles associated with measuring the total force generated in all impact sports. Firstly negating the potential for serious injury, during measurements. Secondly, traditional force measurement is entirely subjective, that is, the harder the surface, the greater the force generated.

Therefore, the maximum force human beings can exert can only be achieved when striking a completely solid object. For that reason, no standardised system of force measurement currently exists. Furthermore, as the hardness of each rig used determines the outcome and all rigs vary in hardness, all existing studies to-date, are incomparable.

Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects. Force measurement is only a snapshot of what's happening. An inanimate object, unlike a human, cannot shift its centre of gravity during the impact. To capture this you need a longer time base, a different method of measurement entirely. Following 4 years research, and a further 2 years testing with real people and real impacts, in virtually every discipline, a relationship has been discovered between the measurable (SI) units of power and energy.

The power component is related to speed, so the faster the strike the greater the impact. Energy is related to the weight of the impact. It is (kinetic) energy that gives an impact its penetrative characteristic. We call these factors speed power and compressive energy. When combined, these allow the quantification of all human impacts. We call this compound unit the Franklin (f), a measurement of human force, named after its inventor.

For the non-technical, the harder you hit, the bigger the number (f). This breakthrough allows for a whole new generation of calibrated, sensitive, standardised (everyone is the same) satisfyingly tactile, PC based training and testing equipment. We call it the PowerKube and it gives the user new and invaluable information, not previously available, instantly, from the novice to the scientist."


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## oldwarrior (Jun 2, 2018)

spidersam said:


> Hi all, I just became a forum member after a few months of reading from the sidelines. Glad I joined.
> 
> I started practicing shaolin kung fu last year and recently hit that first, frustrating improvement plateau. Since I started, I attend class three days per week, and the other three days I practice what I've learned in class plus cardio--so about 2 hours training 6 days per week, including stretching. I feel like I haven't seen improvement lately and need to switch it up (ie, weights/different exercises). Just trying to break the plateau and continue getting better.
> 
> How do you train outside of class?




You watch ...you listen ...you absorb...you look at yourself ...and you learn about yourself ... every human being trains at something everyday even tho they don't think they are ... don't get hung up on improvement as that will send you on a downward spiral and maybe into self doubt. Think on this ...Not every person can have done what you have already done so you have achieved already ...every person progresses at different rates and to different levels ...yes set your goals but do not over set them set them high enough to push you but not so high that you lose confidence and start self doubting ...

Patience ...watch ...listen...absorb and then move froward you will get there


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> You watch ...you listen ...you absorb...you look at yourself ...and you learn about yourself ... every human being trains at something everyday even tho they don't think they are ... don't get hung up on improvement as that will send you on a downward spiral and maybe into self doubt. Think on this ...Not every person can have done what you have already done so you have achieved already ...every person progresses at different rates and to different levels ...yes set your goals but do not over set them set them high enough to push you but not so high that you lose confidence and start self doubting ...
> 
> Patience ...watch ...listen...absorb and then move froward you will get there


Well said oldwarrior!


----------



## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah fair enough, yeah not sure, unless it's some arbitrary scale specifically for that machine...
> 
> Ahhh here we go, pretty cool:
> 
> ...



Well, I utterly disagree with their scientific basis for measurement of force - kinetic energy is, by definition, moving and not an inanimate object.

Also, they have effectively created a proprietary unit of measurement that cannot be compared to or with any SI unit - so to compare anything you have to use their machine.

Actually, I'll lower the tone and call balls on it. An object (say a bag) of known weight will move consistently and measurably when struck. It doesn't just sit there. From that movement a very accurate measurement of delivered force can be taken.


Oh, and the Franklin is an electrostatic unit of charge - nothing to do with impact force at all.

Pseudo-sci-babble is how the whole thing appears.

Shame really, the sensors are available to take meaningful and comparable readings, they appear to have made some decent hardware - they just ruined it by trying too hard with justification of their numbers.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah fair enough, yeah not sure, unless it's some arbitrary scale specifically for that machine...
> 
> Ahhh here we go, pretty cool:
> 
> ...





pdg said:


> Well, I utterly disagree with their scientific basis for measurement of force - kinetic energy is, by definition, moving and not an inanimate object.
> 
> Also, they have effectively created a proprietary unit of measurement that cannot be compared to or with any SI unit - so to compare anything you have to use their machine.
> 
> ...



That is very confusing but sort of makes sense. Traditionally, to measure the force of something you multiply mass by acceleration, and this can be applied to both the striking object and the target. So in the video I linked before they attached a device to the person's foot to measure the speed of the kick and measured the force from that. However, to measure force accurately you need to be able to move the object you are hitting. That's why in the video they used a long bag that could be displaced. But if they had used (for example) a focus pad that was fixed to the wall, when you hit the pad it wouldn't move, and you therefore couldn't accurately record how much force was going into the pad. However, even though the pad wouldn't physically move, it would deform when you hit it, meaning you had put energy and force into the pad. With the right formula and sensors you could record how much the pad was deformed by the strike and therefore calculate how much energy you are putting into the pad. Very clever indeed.


----------



## oldwarrior (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, I utterly disagree with their scientific basis for measurement of force - kinetic energy is, by definition, moving and not an inanimate object.
> 
> Also, they have effectively created a proprietary unit of measurement that cannot be compared to or with any SI unit - so to compare anything you have to use their machine.
> 
> ...




Is that not the way of things try to say a thing then back it up with numbers that most of the poulation will believe as it been published ??? 

Sales is probably the main driving force and thereby ... MONEY ...as the company that doing so has a vested interest in recovering their initial outlay ...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> I welcome any other conclusion:
> 
> PowerKube - Strikecoach


"
Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects. Force measurement is only a snapshot of what's happening. An inanimate object, unlike a human, cannot shift its centre of gravity during the impact. To capture this you need a longer time base, a different method of measurement entirely. Following 4 years research, and a further 2 years testing with real people and real impacts, in virtually every discipline, *a relationship has been discovered between the measurable (SI) units of power and energy.
The power component is related to speed, so the faster the strike the greater the impact.* *Energy is related to the weight of the impact. It is (kinetic) energy that gives an impact its penetrative characteristic*. We call these factors speed power and compressive energy. When combined, these allow the quantification of all human impacts. We call this compound unit *the Franklin (f), a measurement of human force, named after its inventor.*
For the non-technical, the harder you hit, the bigger the number (f). This breakthrough allows for a whole new generation of calibrated, sensitive, standardised (everyone is the same) satisfyingly tactile, PC based training and testing equipment

They measure in Franklins (named after the inventor of the machine).  It seems Franklins are based on the highlighted parts above.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> I welcome any other conclusion:
> 
> PowerKube - Strikecoach



We did a very long thread about this 12months ago and it's to early on a  Sat to rehash it. But the confusion comes from a miss use of force and an insistence on messing power of a kick or punch in lbs.

Firsst it's lbs per square inch, so the contact area is important, second it's the wrong unit of measurment, force applied to the object being hit not the thing doing the hitting

So I'm simple terms, if the contact Area 1square inch and the object weight one pound and it Accelerates away at one metered second per second, then one pound per square inch of force was experienced, change any of those variables and the amount of force changes

If that is being measured in pounds per square inch and hit contact area is say 4square inches, the force experienced would be four times greater is he could get the contact area down to one square inch


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> "
> Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects. Force measurement is only a snapshot of what's happening. An inanimate object, unlike a human, cannot shift its centre of gravity during the impact. To capture this you need a longer time base, a different method of measurement entirely. Following 4 years research, and a further 2 years testing with real people and real impacts, in virtually every discipline, *a relationship has been discovered between the measurable (SI) units of power and energy.
> The power component is related to speed, so the faster the strike the greater the impact.* *Energy is related to the weight of the impact. It is (kinetic) energy that gives an impact its penetrative characteristic*. We call these factors speed power and compressive energy. When combined, these allow the quantification of all human impacts. We call this compound unit *the Franklin (f), a measurement of human force, named after its inventor.*
> For the non-technical, the harder you hit, the bigger the number (f). This breakthrough allows for a whole new generation of calibrated, sensitive, standardised (everyone is the same) satisfyingly tactile, PC based training and testing equipment
> ...



As I said, I disagree with their interpretation.

The opening statement "Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects" is wrong for a start.

Also, their pad is inanimate, it doesn't react or actively shift - it sits there (in an inanimate fashion) until it gets hit. Much like a bag, or a pad.

As I also said, the Franklin as a unit is already in use for something entirely unrelated.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Well, I utterly disagree with their scientific basis for measurement of force - kinetic energy is, by definition, moving and not an inanimate object.
> 
> Also, they have effectively created a proprietary unit of measurement that cannot be compared to or with any SI unit - so to compare anything you have to use their machine.
> 
> ...



Rightyo!

It sorta makes sense to me. I think they mean that the hardness of the object taking the impact changes the force absorbed, therefore the kinetic energy absorbed will differ. So they've utilised compression as a measurement, as other means aren't as accurate (especially when it comes to the power of certain techniques). Just pondering out loud, not saying making conclusive statements.

Although if the hardness of an object was standardised then you could just make measurements on that as a standard, just the relative differences could be measured on whatever we choose I guess. Dunno!



oldwarrior said:


> Is that not the way of things try to say a thing then back it up with numbers that most of the poulation will believe as it been published ???
> 
> Sales is probably the main driving force and thereby ... MONEY ...as the company that doing so has a vested interest in recovering their initial outlay ...



Hmm I wouldn't say that it's backed solely for money. I mean of course they are trying to sell their product to people, but it would make sense for people who devised a product to explain how it works to people.. not necessarily to trick people or get them to believe faulty or magic numbers.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> As I said, I disagree with their interpretation.
> 
> The opening statement "Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects" is wrong for a start.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone actually uses Franklin units as a measure of electrical power anymore, although it is confusing having the same name. Also when it comes to the pad, it sounds like they have decided to measure the elastic potential energy at the point of impact and then convert that to force, which makes sense since the pad doesn't move therefore the standard F=MxA doesn't apply. I don't know how accurate their method is compared to the more traditional method, but that is the theory behind it.


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## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> As I said, I disagree with their interpretation.
> 
> The opening statement "Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects" is wrong for a start.
> 
> ...


Well no it's very true, Newtonian mechanics only applies to objects with no friction in a vacum. clearly you can put people in a vacuum, but they would very soon become an inanimate object


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## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I don't think anyone actually uses Franklin units as a measure of electrical power anymore, although it is confusing having the same name. Also when it comes to the pad, it sounds like they have decided to measure the elastic potential energy at the point of impact and then convert that to force, which makes sense since the pad doesn't move therefore the standard F=MxA doesn't apply. I don't know how accurate their method is compared to the more traditional method, but that is the theory behind it.


The pad doesn't have to move( through space,) you can measure how quickly the pad deformed on contact and use that for acceleration, like putting a dent in a car with you foot, your unlikely to move the whole car, yet you could still calculate the force experienced by the car, as it is is probably on a huge spring and did move a bit


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well no it's very true, Newtonian mechanics only applies to objects with no friction in a vacum. clearly you can put people in a vacuum, but they would very soon become an inanimate object



You can apply tribology (the science of friction) to Newtonian models, but it is a lot harder to do and most people don't bother unless their entire focus is on reducing resistance as much as possible.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> You can apply tribology (the science of friction) to Newtonian models, but it is a lot harder to do and most people don't bother unless their entire focus is on reducing resistance as much as possible.


Yes, you can factor it in, but Newton didn't actually bother with that in any of his laws of motion, and if you do so, it's no longer Newton mechanics


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> As I said, I disagree with their interpretation.
> 
> The opening statement "Newtonian units of force are only applicable to inanimate objects" is wrong for a start.
> 
> ...


Just adding what they were stating so people don't have to go back and forth on the website with what they claim to measure.


One of the statements on their page says "*The harder you hit the higher the numbers go.*"   This works for me, because it doesn't do anything beyond giving me a number in which to try to maintain or exceed for the purpose of training strikes.  They could have measured it in rabbit poo and I would still have benefit from it.  I need to try to maintain a count of 163 rabbit droppings force for as long as I can. When the number of rabbit droppings decrease it means that my leg is becoming tired.

The things that they claim are measurable, but have very little value than monitoring increases in decreased of kicking.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes, you can factor it in, but Newton didn't actually bother with that in any of his laws of motion, and if you do so, it's no longer Newton mechanics



Newton was aware of Friction, since it was experimented with by Galileo before him. Newton's first law (the law of inertia) states that an object will remain in motion until acted on by an outside force. If he was able to come to this conclusion, he must have known about Friction as the main stopping force. After all, if Friction didn't exist, according to the law of inertia, a ball that starts rolling forwards along a flat surface would continue to roll forever.

Anyway, going back to the previous point, I don't know how accurately you could measure force using F=MxA when only a portion of the object is moved.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Newton was aware of Friction, since it was experimented with by Galileo before him. Newton's first law (the law of inertia) states that an object will remain in motion until acted on by an outside force. If he was able to come to this conclusion, he must have known about Friction as the main stopping force. After all, if Friction didn't exist, according to the law of inertia, a ball that starts rolling forwards along a flat surface would continue to roll forever.
> 
> Anyway, going back to the previous point, I don't know how accurately you could measure force using F=MxA when only a portion of the object is moved.


Only if you you invent an infinite flat surface, otherwise it will sooner or later crash into something, and it was gravity not friction he was referring to.No gravity no friction of your rolling ball
I'm m sure he was aware of friction, but he didn't bother with it, so any attempt to introduce friction in the calculation stops it being Newtonian

And he was wrong about gravity as well,


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> One of the statements on their page says "*The harder you hit the higher the numbers go.*"   This works for me, because it doesn't do anything beyond giving me a number in which to try to maintain or exceed for the purpose of training strikes.  They could have measured it in rabbit poo and I would still have benefit from it.  I need to try to maintain a count of 163 rabbit droppings force for as long as I can. When the number of rabbit droppings decrease it means that my leg is becoming tired.



Hahaha..... there we go, THAT is the new standard of measurement, innovation! XD

And great point!


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## _Simon_ (Jun 2, 2018)

XD
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





.


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## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> poo and I would still have benefit from it. I need to try to maintain a count of 163 rabbit droppings force for as long as I can. When the number of rabbit droppings decrease it means that my leg is becoming tired



That bit I agree with, the units don't matter as long as they're measurable and consistent.

But, using a proprietary (and secretly calculated) unit restricts you to only ever using their machine to compare and track your own performance, and only allows comparison to another if they're using an identical machine.

As a thing for yourself it may have merit just so long as you don't have a target (because having a target of 1500 flumps means nothing unless you know what they are and how the scale increases), but unless it becomes an industry standard with an open methodology you can never use it as an example.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> You are way over exaggerating the condition. Through stretching the muscle learns to lengthen, then when not stretching it return to its "normal" length. Think of when you bend at the knee. The quad lengthens then retracts.
> In the muscle is sinew, collections of fibrous material that are packed with nerves. The sinew is literally broken when stretched far enough. It triggers the body to release lactic acid in higher quantities that aggravates the muscle. This is the soreness we feel. As we age the muscles loose their ability to stretch and, I agree, for some the nerves get messed up and trigger more and often quicker to prevent injury.


Ok, the quad,,,,,,,, the quad doesNt pass the knee, the articulation of the lower leg is done by tendons, the quad is firmly fixed to the lower femur, explain how movement of the knee makes the quad longer?


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> That bit I agree with, the units don't matter as long as they're measurable and consistent.
> 
> But, using a proprietary (and secretly calculated) unit restricts you to only ever using their machine to compare and track your own performance, and only allows comparison to another if they're using an identical machine.
> 
> As a thing for yourself it may have merit just so long as you don't have a target (because having a target of 1500 flumps means nothing unless you know what they are and how the scale increases), but unless it becomes an industry standard with an open methodology you can never use it as an example.


It was for much that reason that they did away with the furkin


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## spidersam (Jun 2, 2018)

oldwarrior said:


> You watch ...you listen ...you absorb...you look at yourself ...and you learn about yourself ... every human being trains at something everyday even tho they don't think they are ... don't get hung up on improvement as that will send you on a downward spiral and maybe into self doubt. Think on this ...Not every person can have done what you have already done so you have achieved already ...every person progresses at different rates and to different levels ...yes set your goals but do not over set them set them high enough to push you but not so high that you lose confidence and start self doubting ...
> 
> Patience ...watch ...listen...absorb and then move froward you will get there



@oldwarrior understood, thank you for your encouraging and helpful words.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> But, using a proprietary (and secretly calculated) unit restricts you to only ever using their machine to compare and track your own performance, and only allows comparison to another if they're using an identical machine.


That us correct and I think that's where the business marketing come in to answer this question "why should I buy your machine?" and  "what makes your machine unique compared to the ones that already out there?" 



pdg said:


> As a thing for yourself it may have merit just so long as you don't have a target (because having a target of 1500 flumps means nothing unless you know what they are and how the scale increases), but unless it becomes an industry standard with an open methodology you can never use it as an example.


Correct it wouldn't matter, because when I kick or punch people, I don't take measurements or readings.  But if I'm hitting a practice target "The harder I hit, the higher the numbers will go" is all that matters.
For example: what is being measured?  Do you think they know what the measurements mean and how the scale increases?  The only thing they know is that the numbers go up the harder you hit.





This guy is totally out of luck because he can't measure anything by the numbers








pdg said:


> but unless it becomes an industry standard with an open methodology you can never use it as an example.


I'm pretty sure they don't want it to become an industry standard,  They probably only want to have a unique product that people can only get from them.  A lot more has to go into standardizing a measurement.

For example, when they talk about measuring power on something that gives by doing .... XYZ.  When they added that part then I lost interest because what's the point of adding that to the equation.  How a person gives with a kick isn't constant and i don't know anyone would be able to measure that.  Some give more than others and some don't give at all, then you take up body composition.  How much fat and muscle is on the impact area?  Does the target have a strong or weak root?  Is the target moving and if so what direction?  A target that is solid and sits on a surface with little give will provide better numbers and would make better use of science.

What is are the measurements calculating?  Is the machine just measuring  (like a measuring cup)  or are the measurements being used in calculations in order to determine something (how much lift is needed to break to leave earth).   If it's just taking measurements then pretty much anything works.   Lbs. and Kilograms weren't always standard.  If the measurements are used to calculate something else, there will be problems.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 2, 2018)

If the OP wanted to train for martial arts improvement then much of what he'll have to learn is understanding of technique (all of the mechanics involved) and effectiveness of technique (understanding how to effectively apply the techniques) where effectiveness is measured by desirable results.

there's a lot to it, but in short being able to do a split may not factor into the understanding of a technique or the effectiveness of a technique.  If that's the case then what is the purpose of being able to do a split?


----------



## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> That us correct and I think that's where the business marketing come in to answer this question "why should I buy your machine?" and  "what makes your machine unique compared to the ones that already out there?"
> 
> Correct it wouldn't matter, because when I kick or punch people, I don't take measurements or readings.  But if I'm hitting a practice target "The harder I hit, the higher the numbers will go" is all that matters.
> For example: what is being measured?  Do you think they know what the measurements mean and how the scale increases?  The only thing they know is that the numbers go up the harder you hit.
> ...



In essence, I don't think their machine has much of a purpose.

I've only ever measured my kicks and punches with boards - I can break more now than I used to...

With a bag, can you make it swing more than before?

Those sorts of measurements mean more to me than a machine that gives a number that has no basis (other than higher number = harder impact, dur).

If someone feels a number is important, surely they'd want to compare that number with others? Otherwise, what's the point of putting a number on it?

Pounds and kilogrammes weren't standard until they were made so for comparison and trade reasons - non standard measurements are only any good if they can be replicated.

If they said something like "1 franklin is equal to 3.75 kilos travelling at 14m/s" then we'd have a basis.

But apparently, franklins seem to not conform to standardised systems of measure.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> In essence, I don't think their machine has much of a purpose.
> 
> I've only ever measured my kicks and punches with boards - I can break more now than I used to...
> 
> ...


I personally measure my punches by the dent it leaves in the bag.  I literally try to dig into the bag with punches with minimal bag swing.  The wider the dent the less accurate my punches are.  It's the only way for me to measure the punch.    A machimne that measure punching depth would be more meaningfull to me.  Until then I would just use a regular heavy bag.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> How are they different, by your definition?


It's the difference of whether you're actually working to lengthen the muscle, or to train the nervous system response. Static stretches have strong evidence for their ability to increase range of motion, but as Jobo points out, they confuse the nervous system and can actually lead to injuries if used right before vigorous activity (muscles are less elastic, due to nervous system response). They don't effectively train the nervous system, as I understand it, but do a good job of elongating the muscle. Dynamic stretches do a bit of both. Working a kick that has a limited range (like that front kick), the biggest gain you'll get is probably from nervous system retraining - there's so little actual stretch available in that motion, it's unlikely the muscles are being stretched unless they are injured.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> I think he means, that dynamic stretching is to warm the mMuscle and fill it full of blood, both of which will make it more eleastic, but it won't alter your Actual range of motion, in the long term , That needs static streyching


Pretty close.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> Eer, it's said that under general anesthesia thAt every one Is as supple as a new born baby, alcohol also works quite well as its depressed the serious system, I'm not saying that inelastic muscles army an issue, just that they are not the main issue, as the never get to stretch as theNervious system won't let them And at least generally you can't lengthen muscles, damaged muscles perhaps, but you can stretch your hamstring for ever, it will never get any longer, it's fixed at either end and that's it's lengh,, but you can get the ns, to give a greater range of motion


I'm not familiar with those studies, but I've seen some evidence that agrees and disagrees all at once. I need to think about that a bit - my understanding may need updating.

However, it is my understanding that a good stretch (like good exercise) micro-damages a muscle. The muscle responds by building new fiber to bridge the micro-tears, resulting in (very gradually) longer muscles. Perhaps someone with a background in kinesiology can update/correct/confirm that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> How many “big” Olympic sprinter have you ever seen?


Compare sprinters to most marathoners - sprinters are typically more muscular by a significant margin. And, though I was pretty fast back in my 20's, I've never been fast enough to outrun most NFL running backs, tight ends, etc. in a 100-yard sprint.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Compare sprinters to most marathoners - sprinters are typically more muscular by a significant margin. And, though I was pretty fast back in my 20's, I've never been fast enough to outrun most NFL running backs, tight ends, etc. in a 100-yard sprint.


 Olympic sprinters are not small or thin people at all.   There muscle development is specific to the function of running.  They don't need muscle development to push defensive linemen out of the way or to tackle.  
In terms of being "big" (muscular) they are in comparison to other people.  No one ever says that a sports car has a weak or small engine even though it can't move rocks like a dump truck.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not familiar with those studies, but I've seen some evidence that agrees and disagrees all at once. I need to think about that a bit - my understanding may need updating.
> 
> However, it is my understanding that a good stretch (like good exercise) micro-damages a muscle. The muscle responds by building new fiber to bridge the micro-tears, resulting in (very gradually) longer muscles. Perhaps someone with a background in kinesiology can update/correct/confirm that.


That's not how muscles grow, at least not substantially either to increase length or volume, the problem with MICRO Tears is they are microscopic, how long would it take to increase the length of a muscle , by even an inch, in thousands of an inch increments ? If you want more elasticity in a muscle, which is what you want not greater length, then increasing its cross sectional area, is the way forward, particularly, increasing the amount of blood in the muscle


----------



## pdg (Jun 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Compare sprinters to most marathoners - sprinters are typically more muscular by a significant margin. And, though I was pretty fast back in my 20's, I've never been fast enough to outrun most NFL running backs, tight ends, etc. in a 100-yard sprint.





JowGaWolf said:


> Olympic sprinters are not small or thin people at all.   There muscle development is specific to the function of running.  They don't need muscle development to push defensive linemen out of the way or to tackle.
> In terms of being "big" (muscular) they are in comparison to other people.  No one ever says that a sports car has a weak or small engine even though it can't move rocks like a dump truck.



Sprinters tend to be bigger because of the way they need to develop explosive power for a short period of time.

They're generally pretty poor marathon runners though...


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Sprinters tend to be bigger because of the way they need to develop explosive power for a short period of time.
> 
> They're generally pretty poor marathon runners though...


Well they will be if they don't train distance running, as will any one, Tri,athletes are both pretty chunky AND run a fair distance


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jun 2, 2018)

pdg said:


> Sprinters tend to be bigger because of the way they need to develop explosive power for a short period of time.
> 
> They're generally pretty poor marathon runners though...








slightly different to running, but it's still analyzing a sprinter as opposed to a long-distance athlete. Basically what makes a good sprinter is long limbs combined with fantastic anaerobic capacity and power generation.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Compare sprinters to most marathoners - sprinters are typically more muscular by a significant margin. And, though I was pretty fast back in my 20's, I've never been fast enough to outrun most NFL running backs, tight ends, etc. in a 100-yard sprint.


I was Nike clocked at a 4.38 going into college but was only good for 40-50 yards. I played in the secondary so the short distance speed was most important. I was never much at long distance runs. When I went through the police academy we had to run 1 3/4 miles in 10 minutes and 5 miles in 50 minutes. I had a terrible gate and struggled more with the 5 mile run.


----------



## dvcochran (Jun 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok, the quad,,,,,,,, the quad doesNt pass the knee, the articulation of the lower leg is done by tendons, the quad is firmly fixed to the lower femur, explain how movement of the knee makes the quad longer?


Straight off the Mayo Clinic site:
The *quadriceps femoris* (/ˈkwɒdrɪsɛps ˈfɛmərɪs/, also called the *quadriceps extensor*, *quadriceps* or *quads*), is a large muscle group that includes the four prevailing muscles on the front of the thigh.

It is the great extensor muscle of the knee, forming a large fleshy mass which covers the front and sides of the femur. The name derives from Latin _four-headed muscle of the femur_.


----------



## jobo (Jun 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Straight off the Mayo Clinic site:
> The *quadriceps femoris* (/ˈkwɒdrɪsɛps ˈfɛmərɪs/, also called the *quadriceps extensor*, *quadriceps* or *quads*), is a large muscle group that includes the four prevailing muscles on the front of the thigh.
> 
> It is the great extensor muscle of the knee, forming a large fleshy mass which covers the front and sides of the femur. The name derives from Latin _four-headed muscle of the femur_.


Yes,, so explain how MOVing the lower leg lengthens It, when it doesNT bridge the knee


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I was Nike clocked at a 4.38 going into college but was only good for 40-50 yards. I played in the secondary so the short distance speed was most important. I was never much at long distance runs. When I went through the police academy we had to run 1 3/4 miles in 10 minutes and 5 miles in 50 minutes. I had a terrible gate and struggled more with the 5 mile run.


I've always been a slow runner for distance. Even when I was running a lot (for me, that meant more than 50 miles a week), I never got down to a 7-minute mile. On the soccer field, I was one of the fast ones.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes,, so explain how MOVing the lower leg lengthens It, when it doesNT bridge the knee


Quadriceps tendon connects to the patella, which connects to the fibula via the patellar tendon. When the leg is bent, tension on the tendons transfers to the muscle.


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## jobo (Jun 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Quadriceps tendon connects to the patella, which connects to the fibula via the patellar tendon. When the leg is bent, tension on the tendons transfers to the muscle.


o was asking him to back up his statement on the function of the quad, if your answering for him, what you've out doesn't answer the specific question and what you have put is incorrect, its straightening the leg that put tension on the muscle not bending it putting tension on the tendons, bending it puts tension. On the hamstring


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> o was asking him to back up his statement on the function of the quad, if your answering for him, what you've out doesn't answer the specific question and what you have put is incorrect, its straightening the leg that put tension on the muscle not bending it putting tension on the tendons, bending it puts tension. On the hamstring


That's backwards. When the quad muscle group tenses, it straightens the leg. When the leg bends, tension is placed on the quad muscle group. It's a simple effect.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I was Nike clocked at a 4.38 going into college but was only good for 40-50 yards. I played in the secondary so the short distance speed was most important. I was never much at long distance runs. When I went through the police academy we had to run 1 3/4 miles in 10 minutes and 5 miles in 50 minutes. I had a terrible gate and struggled more with the 5 mile run.


I was one of the rare ones.  I was able to sprint and distance run at a competitive pace.  I'm not naturally built for distance so I had to "convert" my body to be better at running distance. My first 5k race time was 30 minutes.  By the end of the year the time dropped to 25 minutes.  After 3 years of competing (2 years of training ).  My time dropped to 21 minutes.  Had I taken it more seriously I would have been able to drop it even lower.  For me,  Cross Country running (our races were through woods, hiking trails and grass fields) was my training for track season, where I was a sprinter


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was one of the rare ones.  I was able to sprint and distance run at a competitive pace.  I'm not naturally built for distance so I had to "convert" my body to be better at running distance. My first 5k race time was 30 minutes.  By the end of the year the time dropped to 25 minutes.  After 3 years of competing (2 years of training ).  My time dropped to 21 minutes.  Had I taken it more seriously I would have been able to drop it even lower.  For me,  Cross Country running (our races were through woods, hiking trails and grass fields) was my training for track season, where I was a sprinter


There are those gifted to do both. In high school, our star all three years my brother was there (one year ahead of me), was our best at track (short distance) and cross country (longer distance). He was also one of the star soccer players. And a really nice guy, though I hate him for being so talented.


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## jobo (Jun 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That's backwards. When the quad muscle group tenses, it straightens the leg. When the leg bends, tension is placed on the quad muscle group. It's a simple effect.


i know and you said the tendon places tension on the muscle and not as it is that the muscles places tension on the,tendons


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> There are those gifted to do both. In high school, our star all three years my brother was there (one year ahead of me), was our best at track (short distance) and cross country (longer distance). He was also one of the star soccer players. And a really nice guy, though I hate him for being so talented.


ha ha ha..  sounds like my brother.  Good at football,  Great in wrestling, Good in Judo or BJJ (I can't remember which one he does). Excellent with people (kids and adults), Ran a marathon, rock climbs, does the mud races, excellent shape. Mountain bikes.  He's pretty much a very active person and seems to become more active as he gets older.  Even though he's my younger brother I look up to him and get inspired by a lot of what he does and has accomplished.  As a teen and young adult he was the opposite.  He went through a really rough spell in his 20's and I'm just glad he made it through.  And it's good for me to have someone to look up to as well.


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## Danny T (Jun 3, 2018)

The hamstrings are actually 3 muscles and for flexion of the knee and hip. The quads are for straighten of the leg.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2018)

Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.


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## pdg (Jun 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.



His grass needs sorting out.

A nice bit of top dressing and some overseeding should see it right...


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## spidersam (Jun 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.



Thanks for sharing. Nice to see what other students are doing at home.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 3, 2018)

You can use a "single head" to train a lot of stuff at home.






Square bag group throwing.






Train your arm.






Double heads training.






Develop leg lifting power.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> i know and you said the tendon places tension on the muscle and not as it is that the muscles places tension on the,tendons


When the muscles is in use, that is correct. Not when the antagonistic muscle is bending the knee. Then, as the lower leg is pulled down, the tendon places tension on the muscle.


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## jobo (Jun 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.


I like the way he puts a coAt on Bob foR added realism, that move he is practising will work very well if he is ever attacked by a 5ft guy with no Arms and terrible ballance


gpseymour said:


> When the muscles is in use, that is correct. Not when the antagonistic muscle is bending the knee. Then, as the lower leg is pulled down, the tendon places tension on the muscle.


The Quad is the antagonistic muscle,, it doesn't bend the knee it straightens it ?????


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> I like the way he puts a coAt on Bob foR added realism, that move he is practising will work very well if he is ever attacked by a 5ft guy with no Arms and terrible ballance
> 
> The Quad is the antagonistic muscle,, it doesn't bend the knee it straightens it ?????


You are correct. I was using the literal version of "antagonist" (roughtly, opposing), which is confusing in a kinesio context.


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## dvcochran (Jun 3, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was one of the rare ones.  I was able to sprint and distance run at a competitive pace.  I'm not naturally built for distance so I had to "convert" my body to be better at I



I had a terrible gate running for distance. Had a good sprinters stride. I have a very good friend who looks like a gazelle and could run all day. He really helped me out. The farthest I have ever ran was a 10K and finished way back in the pack.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> I had a terrible gate running for distance. Had a good sprinters stride. I have a very good friend who looks like a gazelle and could run all day. He really helped me out. The farthest I have ever ran was a 10K and finished way back in the pack.


Back in my teens and 20's it felt like I could run forever, but my distance running never developed any speed. I often ran 7 miles at a time in training, and sometimes more than 10 miles a day. But always at roughly the pace I'll be using when I need a walker.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.


Looks like he could use one of these so he can get the leg left or a post with a light weight on the end.  The base was screwing him up and I bet it wasn't light either.





I like the 3 stars arm conditioning.  I use a staff to do my solo conditioning. Similar to the Train your arm video  I like the sound of bone hitting wood.



dvcochran said:


> I have a very good friend who looks like a gazelle and could run all day.


Funny that you mention this animal.  It's the same one I based my meditation on.  I would visualize myself as a gazelle, but not so much the animal but the ease at which it runs. They don't have a lot of muscular mass so the running always looks effortless. So it was that imagery that I focused on. The more I focused on that animal the less I thought about my own running.

I still do visualization to this day, just not as much animal visualization (not yet anyway.)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


>


The issue for the throwing dummy is you may spend 80% of your training time trying to lift it up from the ground and make it standing. Also if you try to lift it up in fast speed 60 times daily, you may hurt your elbow joints big time.


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## Buka (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.



Tell your student that you chat with a guy online who's been doing Martial Arts for a time or two, and says your student is the balls.

I really enjoyed watching that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are some home training clips that one of my students does.


I wonder if something like either of these (with a jacket attached somehow) would work well enough for the first exercise.


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## jobo (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue for the throwing dummy is you may spend 80% of your training time trying to lift it up from the ground and make it standing. Also if you try to lift it up in fast speed 60 times daily, you may hurt your elbow joints big time.


Lifting t up 60 times would probably be the best value of the exercise,


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue for the throwing dummy is you may spend 80% of your training time trying to lift it up from the ground and make it standing.


Think of it as conditioning.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Think of it as conditioning.


I have injured my elbow joints 2 times in my life by lifting the throwing dummy up and made it standing. Today the dummy's arms and waist are all broken. I just use it as a hanging striking dummy.


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## JowGaWolf (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have injured my elbow joints 2 times in my life by lifting the throwing dummy up and made it standing. Today the dummy's arms and waist are all broken. I just use it as a hanging striking dummy.


You're a beast.   Hanging your prey from trees lol.


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## jobo (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have injured my elbow joints 2 times in my life by lifting the throwing dummy up and made it standing. Today the dummy's arms and waist are all broken. I just use it as a hanging striking dummy.


How heavy is it ? , if it's supposed to be person heavy, they you should be able to help that back on to its" feet" with little problem, may be some dead lifting instead of that silly stick with a weight on the end would help


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> How heavy is it ? , if it's supposed to be person heavy, they you should be able to help that back on to its" feet" with little problem, may be some dead lifting instead of that silly stick with a weight on the end would help


It's the fast lifting motion as shown in the clip that put pressure on the elbow joints.

If you put 90 lb weight and try to bend your arms in "fast speed" 60 times daily, you will hurt your elbow joints the same way.


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## jobo (Jun 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's the fast lifting motion as shown in the clip that put pressure on the elbow joints.
> 
> If you put 90 lb weight and try to bend your arms in "fast speed" 60 times daily, you will hurt your elbow joints the same way.


Well lift it slowly then, 90 lbs is that all it is? that's like throwing a12 Yo, about, And your only lifting half of that at most, split between two arms, that a 22lbs per arm,I curl far more than that,

You need to go on a weekend ninja toughening up program or just buy a blow up doll


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