# Daedo electronic hogu distorts original concept of full contact kyorugi



## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

This past weekend I watched a lot of matches at the NCTA National Collegiate Taekwondo Championships in Boston. This event doubled as the team trails to select the US National Collegiate Team going to the World University Taekwondo Championships in Korea, later on this year.  There were a good number of excellent fighters at this event. This was the first time I got to observe the Dado electronic hogu in elite level fights, up close. 

I can tell you that based on what I observed, I am NOT in favor of this hogu.  I watch elite level fighters roll over perfect round kicks, striking at 90 degrees that were so powerful and explosive they not only folded over the other fighter, but lifted them off their feet, and, ----------- no score.  This was not one or two times, it was dozens of times.  

Fighters what were successful in scoring on this hogu, had to hit at 90 degrees, but with a very shallow penetrating "snap" or slap of the foot. 

This forced a number of female fighters to resort to the old school points style of sparring. Holding one leg up in the air, sliding along on one leg jabbing and slapping at the other girls face, 4, 5, 6 or more times hoping to bump their head for the 3 point score. It was rare to see powerful blows in the female matches I watched. Several female matches were won this way. 

Several of the men's matches were backward. The powerful striker was not awarded points on this hogu, the one who could smack it the right way, and of course touch the head with the foot.

I did see a lot of fighters going for full force body punches, and scoring. Some felt they had a better chances at convincing the judges with a big body punch then smacking the hogu just right with their foot.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2012)

mastercole said:


> This past weekend I watched a lot of matches at the NCTA National Collegiate Taekwondo Championships in Boston. This event doubled as the team trails to select the US National Collegiate Team going to the World University Taekwondo Championships in Korea, later on this year.  There were a good number of excellent fighters at this event. This was the first time I got to observe the Dado electronic hogu in elite level fights, up close.
> 
> I can tell you that based on what I observed, I am NOT in favor of this hogu.  I watch elite level fighters roll over perfect round kicks, striking at 90 degrees that were so powerful and explosive they not only folded over the other fighter, but lifted them off their feet, and, ----------- no score.  This was not one or two times, it was dozens of times.



I heard the same thing about NCTA Nationals.


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## Manny (Apr 11, 2012)

So what we can do? I've been seen this kind of post about the electronic hogus, no matter La Just, Daedo, Adidas, etc. I saw the adidas electronic hogus last year in BB competition locally and state, even I was center referee when fightes were using this adidas hogus and see they were incosistent. Something I would like to tell you, Guillermo "MEMO" Perez the  Mexican Gold Medallist in Olimpics at Beijing 2008 has retired from compettion a few weeks ago because afther the olimpics he could not adjust to the electronic hogus he used in national and international competitions, he simply got tired of fighting not against other men or countries but against the electronic hogus.

I also have seen full body kicks that not score and simple snap kicks that score.

Manny


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## troubleenuf (Apr 11, 2012)

Its the nature of the beast guys.  In order to win you have to change to adapt to the rules, the judges and yes the scoring system.  Its not going away, you just have to spend the time with the system to learn how to score on it.  I hate a system that dictates the style of fighting but that is were we are at.


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## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

Manny said:


> So what we can do? I've been seen this kind of post about the electronic hogus, no matter La Just, Daedo, Adidas, etc. I saw the adidas electronic hogus last year in BB competition locally and state, even I was center referee when fightes were using this adidas hogus and see they were incosistent. Something I would like to tell you, Guillermo "MEMO" Perez the  Mexican Gold Medallist in Olimpics at Beijing 2008 has retired from compettion a few weeks ago because afther the olimpics he could not adjust to the electronic hogus he used in national and international competitions, he simply got tired of fighting not against other men or countries but against the electronic hogus.
> 
> I also have seen full body kicks that not score and simple snap kicks that score.
> 
> Manny



We own a set of Adidas electronic hogu and we think they are the best out there.  Adidas reads air pressure, to it reads force, and it gives you feed back that tells you exactly what level of force you generated.  Adidas hogu keeps the match like it was originally intended, score only full force, abrupt displacement blows.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> Its the nature of the beast guys.  In order to win you have to change to adapt to the rules, the judges and yes the scoring system.  Its not going away, you just have to spend the time with the system to learn how to score on it.  I hate a system that dictates the style of fighting but that is were we are at.



We have a daedo system here and the competitors who went up use it regularly. The way it was described to me, it sounded like the equipment was malfunctioning. But who knows. 

Also, certain referees were giving too many kyong go during the matches. In one team trial final, the referee was giving kyong go to both players. The match was finally stopped with one minute left in the third round, one side got a dq on kyong go and was still winning by two points, and the other side had maybe one kyong go left.


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## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> Its the nature of the beast guys.  In order to win you have to change to adapt to the rules, the judges and yes the scoring system.  Its not going away, you just have to spend the time with the system to learn how to score on it.  I hate a system that dictates the style of fighting but that is were we are at.



It is certainly where it's at currently, but, if we don't feel it is right, we should act to change it.  I can't believe with the technology that is out there an accurate hogu can not be made.

I think it should measure force over the course of the round. At the end of the round, add up the total force and see who won the round, of course adding in deductions. Winner is declared by best out of three rounds.


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## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

puunui said:


> We have a daedo system here and the competitors who went up use it regularly. The way it was described to me, it sounded like the equipment was malfunctioning. But who knows.
> 
> Also, certain referees were giving too many kyong go during the matches. In one team trial final, the referee was giving kyong go to both players. The match was finally stopped with one minute left in the third round, one side got a dq on kyong go and was still winning by two points, and the other side had maybe one kyong go left.



Yes, I watch that entire match. Two very good fighters. It was frustrating to thing the Daedo hogu had such a huge influence on the game.


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## puunui (Apr 11, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think it should measure force over the course of the round. At the end of the round, add up the total force and see who won the round, of course adding in deductions. Winner is declared by best out of three rounds.



Daedo measures force as well, but I think something was wrong with the equipment. But the total force concept is something I never thought of before. Certainly that would be a fair assessment. Sort of like the video game street fighter applied to matches.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 11, 2012)

mastercole said:


> It is certainly where it's at currently, but, if we don't feel it is right, we should act to change it.  I can't believe with the technology that is out there an accurate hogu can not be made.
> 
> I think it should measure force over the course of the round. At the end of the round, add up the total force and see who won the round, of course adding in deductions. Winner is declared by best out of three rounds.


First of all, Ive never seen electronic scoring so dont understand it. BUT, I must agree with you, surely in this day and age they can make a hogu that just has a set measure of impact required, it shouldnt matter what angle the leg is, or what type of kick etc, surely it can just feel the pressure required and score. It sounds like something you could make in your own garage with a tiny bit of electronics experience and a basic tool kit. As an outsider looking in it really does seem ridiculous.


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## Bagehot (Apr 11, 2012)

mastercole said:


> We own a set of Adidas electronic hogu and we think they are the best out there.  Adidas reads air pressure, to it reads force, and it gives you feed back that tells you exactly what level of force you generated.  Adidas hogu keeps the match like it was originally intended, score only full force, abrupt displacement blows.



We have been working with the Adidas equipment for three years, I find them consistent and straightforward.

-- Bagehot


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## Bagehot (Apr 11, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think it should measure force over the course of the round. At the end of the round, add up the total force and see who won the round, of course adding in deductions. Winner is declared by best out of three rounds.



That's an interesting concept, Al. In some ways, better than points.

-- Bagehot


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## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

puunui said:


> Daedo measures force as well, but I think something was wrong with the equipment. But the total force concept is something I never thought of before. Certainly that would be a fair assessment. Sort of like the video game street fighter applied to matches.



I did not know that.  My son went out to Colorado a few weeks back and trained on the Daedo hogu with Chris Martinez (Elite). Full force blows were hard to score. A quick smack on the surface seemed to score a point every time. That was consistent with what I saw at the event.


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## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

Bagehot said:


> We have been working with the Adidas equipment for three years, I find them consistent and straightforward.
> 
> -- Bagehot



I think it was a major mistake not to select Adidas electronic hogu, if we must have an electronic hogu.


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## mastercole (Apr 11, 2012)

Bagehot said:


> That's an interesting concept, Al. In some ways, better than points.
> 
> -- Bagehot



We had been using it at the dojang and watching how it measured force for each blow. Once that force number reaches the threshold number, a point pops up. Made good sense. But then my one son said why can't they just write a program to tally up the total force at the end of each round and score like that. The first thing I though was how in line with self defense that was.


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## Gorilla (Apr 11, 2012)

All the things that have been stated above are correct.  This why we started training in karate to help adapt to the system.  Change or or die.

The adidas system is a perfect system for my daughter because she has great power game.


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## Cyriacus (Apr 12, 2012)

I recall predicting something like this.


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## ralphmcpherson (Apr 12, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I recall predicting something like this.


You're not alone


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## ATC (Apr 12, 2012)

Here we go again! Seems I've heard these same statements just not to long ago with another hogu brand that is now gone. Hmmm.... all my past points seem to be right on the mark. Maybe I need to bring up some old posts. I am doubled over with laughter at this time. I remember when Deado was the next best thing when the other brand was being used. I said it then and I will say it now. The same fighters are still on top. So what are they doing that others can't? Hhhmmmmm....indeed.


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## Archtkd (Apr 12, 2012)

mastercole said:


> We own a set of Adidas electronic hogu and we think they are the best out there.  Adidas reads air pressure, to it reads force, and it gives you feed back that tells you exactly what level of force you generated.  Adidas hogu keeps the match like it was originally intended, score only full force, abrupt displacement blows.



Do you need sensor on a sock for the Adidas system? It sounds to me like that system adheres better to the WTF concept/rule that any part of below the ankle can score. I think you had earlier mentioned that people using the Daedoo system are having major problems scoring with back kick because the sensors are placed in part of the foot that are usually not used in back kicks.


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## Manny (Apr 12, 2012)

mastercole said:


> We own a set of Adidas electronic hogu and we think they are the best out there. Adidas reads air pressure, to it reads force, and it gives you feed back that tells you exactly what level of force you generated. Adidas hogu keeps the match like it was originally intended, score only full force, abrupt displacement blows.



Here you have my LIMITED experience with adidas (the only electronic hogus I know first hand), in one figh it socored a clash, I eman both fighters lauched kicks simultaneusly and both enden in a crash hogu to hogu I mean the hogus slamed one to other and one of them score with no a single kick, knees also score for example and in one ocacion a fighter fell over it and scored against the floor LOL!!!

But again I have no experience with teh La Just, Daedo,etc.

Manny


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

ATC said:


> Here we go again! Seems I've heard these same statements just not to long ago with another hogu brand that is now gone. Hmmm.... all my past points seem to be right on the mark. Maybe I need to bring up some old posts. I am doubled over with laughter at this time. I remember when Deado was the next best thing when the other brand was being used. I said it then and I will say it now. The same fighters are still on top. So what are they doing that others can't? Hhhmmmmm....indeed.



Actually this is not the same as the last time. Last time you were defending lajust, at a point where it was obvious to everyone that lajust was not the answer and the word was that it was on its way out, to the point where, contrary to what you wrote, the same fighters are not on top. That is why the WTF got rid of lajust. This time there is one point on the line at a single tournament. Not the same thing.


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## ATC (Apr 12, 2012)

puunui said:


> Actually this is not the same as the last time. Last time you were defending lajust, at a point where it was obvious to everyone that lajust was not the answer and the word was that it was on its way out, to the point where, contrary to what you wrote, the same fighters are not on top. That is why the WTF got rid of lajust. This time there is one point on the line at a single tournament. Not the same thing.


Exactly the same and all the points or so called defense of LaJust I will simply just replace the LaJust with Daedo. The hogu does not matter, only the fighter matters. We have fought with LaJust, Daedo, and just the plain old standard hogu and we have had no issue with either. Our game has not changed and we are still winning. Most of the top competitors have not changed their game and they to are still winning. If your skills are solid then the hogu won't matter. My son and others on his team have racked up 20 or more points with or without E-hogus. If the body is open the we hit the body, if the head is open then we hit the head. You will always have those that don't like what is being used, those that do, and those that don't care. I just happen to be in the don't care bucket. I never defended anything. I guess if you don't care then it may look like defending to others.


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## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

ATC said:


> Exactly the same and all the points or so called defense of LaJust I will simply just replace the LaJust with Daedo. The hogu does not matter, only the fighter matters. We have fought with LaJust, Daedo, and just the plain old standard hogu and we have had no issue with either. Our game has not changed and we are still winning. Most of the top competitors have not changed their game and they to are still winning. If your skills are solid then the hogu won't matter. My son and others on his team have racked up 20 or more points with or without E-hogus. If the body is open the we hit the body, if the head is open then we hit the head. You will always have those that don't like what is being used, those that do, and those that don't care. I just happen to be in the don't care bucket. I never defended anything. I guess if you don't care then it may look like defending to others.



Again, move to the senior division. Huge difference between that and the junior divisions.


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## mastercole (Apr 12, 2012)

ATC said:


> Exactly the same and all the points or so called defense of LaJust I will simply just replace the LaJust with Daedo. The hogu does not matter, only the fighter matters. We have fought with LaJust, Daedo, and just the plain old standard hogu and we have had no issue with either. Our game has not changed and we are still winning. Most of the top competitors have not changed their game and they to are still winning. If your skills are solid then the hogu won't matter. My son and others on his team have racked up 20 or more points with or without E-hogus. If the body is open the we hit the body, if the head is open then we hit the head. You will always have those that don't like what is being used, those that do, and those that don't care. I just happen to be in the don't care bucket. I never defended anything. I guess if you don't care then it may look like defending to others.



It's not that simple, it's not about me or any of my players. If my players lose, they need to improve, that is my answer to them, I would never say it was a referee, a rule, equipment or anything, other than them. 

 I watched fighters with excellent skills, fail to score many fast, explosive, rolled over round kicks. I saw the same fighters, and others score with lower power, slapping round kicks. 

Elite fighters, which the USA has few of, will always adapt. That is not my issue. My issue is that the Daedo electronic hogu takes away from the full contact concept, for everyone involved, not just the elite.

Kyorugi is not just about winning a medal.  Kyorugi is about everything in Taekwondo, and the Daebo electronic hogu degrades that.


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## terryl965 (Apr 13, 2012)

Well first of Dardo is also measure by power, all the hogus can be adjusted to weight and power levels. Also Daedo is about ten times better than LaJust but none of them are perfect. Going back to humans being refs. will still have kicks not scored. I still believe the best fighter that day will win nomatter what is being use. Last thing about didas is they also will score if the shin hits the hogu because it is simply about power. In TKD sport it is like footbal,basketball or baseball, bad calls are going to happen,equipment malfuction is going to happen it is what it is. Learn to play the game with or without EBPs. We have done well with Daedo but we could not do well with Lajust. Remember it is a game and games will never ever be fair to all.


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## ATC (Apr 13, 2012)

mastercole said:


> It's not that simple, it's not about me or any of my players. If my players lose, they need to improve, that is my answer to them, I would never say it was a referee, a rule, equipment or anything, other than them.
> 
> I watched fighters with excellent skills, fail to score many fast, explosive, rolled over round kicks. I saw the same fighters, and others score with lower power, slapping round kicks.
> 
> ...


I don't believe that to be the case. Yes you may have to slightly change some but not much. We have a Daedo system in house and when we practice on it we set the levels pretty high. Snap kicking won't work with how high we set the levels but power kick do. We have found that you mush turn the foot over and drive into the hogu the way a kick is meant to be. Very hard to score with 45 degree kicks and side of foot type kick. The type that are use when kicking short. Short kick now need the knee to bend so as the top fo the foot (full instep) makes contact. That is about it. So full support leg pivot is needed now to turn the hips over. If your kicks are technically correct then you will score. To me it is that simple.


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## ATC (Apr 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> Again, move to the senior division. Huge difference between that and the junior divisions.


We have seniors also. The same people that have always been on top are still on top. Not many names have changed.


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## Manny (Apr 13, 2012)

I have never used an electronic hogu and never will I think, I am not a competition fan very simple, but if I were a competitor who used full power kicks I will feel terrible if the other guy using only snap kicks with no power will win over me, because I think TKD is a Martial Art and not a tag game.

When I do kyorugi I use for safety sake the normal hogu and I fight not for points, I eman I am not counting the points I have scored or the points the other guy is doing to me, the only thing I am care of is my head/face and offcourse to not get a full powerfull kick to my torso. Wining or losing is not my game my game is to try to control my oponent and to be better than him and overcome him.

Here in my town the average dojnag still uses the normal hogus with sucess, in local and even statal competitions not every division uses the electronic hogus, we still use the silly button box to score.

Maybe because I am not inside the competition circuits I can write the way I do about the electronic devices to measure the power and to get points.

I think when e-hogu and e-helmet will be set in aprpopiate maner the only thing a ring or combat area will have is the central referee to moderate the fight, the couches and the PC and maybe a paramedic just in case and that's all, the silly blue and red cards will be gone and the machine will declare a winner of a the GAME.

Manny


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## puunui (Apr 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> We have seniors also. The same people that have always been on top are still on top. Not many names have changed.



How many of your seniors medalled in the black belt divisions at nationals? Are you planning on taking a team to the upcoming team trials the last week of April?


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## ATC (Apr 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> How many of your seniors medalled in the black belt divisions at nationals? Are you planning on taking a team to the upcoming team trials the last week of April?


We don't have any top Sr's. I stated the the same top Sr. fighters are still on the top. If you look at the names of competitors that make it to team trials they are still the same people that were there when it was LaJust, or even regular hogus. I don't see them complaining. I know TJ Curry personnaly, and he never once complained about LaJust or Daedo. Nor did his Master (Master Singer). Steven Lopez is still on the top after all the rules changes, hogu changes, ring size changes, and so on, is still on top. In GB (Great Britan) They still have the same top people that they had the last 4 years ago back at this Olympics and I don't recall a single article or interview where they complained about any hogu changes making difficult for them to return. Even Mark Lopez did not make it he is still on top and simply got beat by another that has alway be right there. The same players at the top are still there after any and all changes that have been made, hogu, or other wise. Only age will bring these players down off the mountain. Only the ones that can't get to the top complain about things. The hogu makes no difference, only the person in it does.


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## mastercole (Apr 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> We don't have any top Sr's. I stated the the same top Sr. fighters are still on the top. If you look at the names of competitors that make it to team trials they are still the same people that were there when it was LaJust, or even regular hogus. I don't see them complaining. I know TJ Curry personnaly, and he never once complained about LaJust or Daedo. Nor did his Master (Master Singer). Steven Lopez is still on the top after all the rules changes, hogu changes, ring size changes, and so on, is still on top. In GB (Great Britan) They still have the same top people that they had the last 4 years ago back at this Olympics and I don't recall a single article or interview where they complained about any hogu changes making difficult for them to return. Even Mark Lopez did not make it he is still on top and simply got beat by another that has alway be right there. The same players at the top are still there after any and all changes that have been made, hogu, or other wise. Only age will bring these players down off the mountain. Only the ones that can't get to the top complain about things. The hogu makes no difference, only the person in it does.



You really are missing my point. 

I never have and never will complain about who wins or looses, even if it is my own players. Who cares who wins, I certainly don't and would never get into such a childish discussion.

My OP had nothing to do with who is still on top and who can adapt. I know all those same people you named, and they will adapt to whatever is thrown at them, I think we all know that. 

Also, my OP had nothing to do with 45 degree round kicks, or poor technique. 

To clarify my point better, having to adapt to skills that move away from full contact, in any measure, distorts the original intent of full contact Kyorugi.


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## puunui (Apr 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> We don't have any top Sr's.



I didn't think so.


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## ATC (Apr 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> I didn't think so.


Your point? Never said we did. One day though. We have some really good up and coming Jr. Just hope that they stick with it. Most times as they get older they fade out for some reason. School maybe, but life mostly. Also the finances are a big issue as well. Even me and my kids, I know that finacially it is difficult. To sustain without help is hard. Unless you are rich.


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## ATC (Apr 13, 2012)

mastercole said:


> You really are missing my point.
> 
> I never have and never will complain about who wins or looses, even if it is my own players. Who cares who wins, I certainly don't and would never get into such a childish discussion.
> 
> ...


I understand. But I don't think the hogu has anything to do with that. Like some have stated, maybe you got to wittness a bad hogu or two. I don't see that being the case with any of the equipment we have in the dojang or at any matches we have been to or in. I know you know your stuff Sir and know good technique when you see it so I take you at your word when you say you saw good solid kicks not score. But there are many that will make your same claim only to find out later that the techniques were not as clean as you or I would say. For instance there is a kid that has been on the team that kick really hard and fast but the kick is with an almost straight leg (no knee been) and he hits with side of his foot not the top. Now this use to score all the time with LaJust and by judges, but not with Daedo. He still won at the Northern CA state Championships this past March, but he had a hard time because of his kicking angle. He actully should have lost in the finals but got the benifit of a non head kick on him and won in OT. The point is he really has bad technique and use to win easy but now it took more from him. I bet he feels the same as you do. Now the difference is that he has bad technique but does not know it. Or maybe he does know it and he will change.


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## puunui (Apr 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> I understand. But I don't think the hogu has anything to do with that. Like some have stated, maybe you got to wittness a bad hogu or two. I don't see that being the case with any of the equipment we have in the dojang or at any matches we have been to or in.



So, again, this situation is different from lajust, which everyone saw as having problems, so much so that the WTF pulled it. In this case, it was one tournament, NCTA Nationals.


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## puunui (Apr 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> Your point?



See above.


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## ATC (Apr 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> So, again, this situation is different from lajust, which everyone saw as having problems, so much so that the WTF pulled it. In this case, it was one tournament, NCTA Nationals.


Not to me. I had no problems with LaJust either.


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## mastercole (Apr 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> I understand. But I don't think the hogu has anything to do with that. Like some have stated, maybe you got to wittness a bad hogu or two. I don't see that being the case with any of the equipment we have in the dojang or at any matches we have been to or in. I know you know your stuff Sir and know good technique when you see it so I take you at your word when you say you saw good solid kicks not score. But there are many that will make your same claim only to find out later that the techniques were not as clean as you or I would say. For instance there is a kid that has been on the team that kick really hard and fast but the kick is with an almost straight leg (no knee been) and he hits with side of his foot not the top. Now this use to score all the time with LaJust and by judges, but not with Daedo. He still won at the Northern CA state Championships this past March, but he had a hard time because of his kicking angle. He actully should have lost in the finals but got the benifit of a non head kick on him and won in OT. The point is he really has bad technique and use to win easy but now it took more from him. I bet he feels the same as you do. Now the difference is that he has bad technique but does not know it. Or maybe he does know it and he will change.



It may seem like I think I am, but no, I'm not yet an expert on correct round kick, but thanks for the confidence. 

It could be "dead spots" in the hogu, I do not believe the hogu at the NCTA event were new. 

I combine what I saw at the NCTA event with information and training my son received from Chris Martinez last month. Chris demonstrated to my son that the angle of attack, how the foot sensor contacts the hogu was more important than the impact. The sensor on the foot had to contact the hogu just right, at what I take is a 90 degree angle, which is good and correct if that is the case, and maybe you can expand on that since you have the Daedo system. What was not good in my opinion, was that Chris and my son could snap the kick, at the correct angle, but at light to medium contact and score every time, yet kicks at the same angle, full force did not score. This was on multiple brand new hogu, with new foot sensors.

If this is the case with this hogu, and maybe that is debatable. I feel that having to retract on the power, even considering the angle must be correct to score, takes away the corner stone of full contact Kyorugi.


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## Gorilla (Apr 14, 2012)

we used the adidas hogu twice...the first time at the Dutch Open and the second time at the ATU/CTU.  It definitely more of a power game.  The problem is that knees score falling down scores it was disaster at the 2009 Dutch Open.

We used laJust at the US open 3 tImes in both the Sr and JR divisions.

We used the Daedo system at the Spanish Open.  AAU team trials twice.  The US Open.  The Pan American Open.  

my daughter fought World ranked fighters, national team members, u24 team members,Olympians...women ranked as high as #2 in the world.  They have all adjusted their game to accommodate the EBP.  Sanaa Atabrour whole game is an adaptation to the EBP.  The same players remain on top but they have had to adjust their game.

All the top coaches say that they have had to adjust to the new system.  In some wAys it has made it more interesting.

TJ Curry is a great fighter but the Epb game sets up quite w


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## Gorilla (Apr 14, 2012)

I will finish my though.  TJ Curry is a great fighter.  His game sets up very well for the New rule set and EBP.

He is a athletic head kicker who uses allot of spin kicks.  I think that if he stays with it he will be very hard to beat if he avoids injury.


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Do you need sensor on a sock for the Adidas system? It sounds to me like that system adheres better to the WTF concept/rule that any part of below the ankle can score. I think you had earlier mentioned that people using the Daedoo system are having major problems scoring with back kick because the sensors are placed in part of the foot that are usually not used in back kicks.



Adidas measures air pressure so no electronic sensor is needed on the foot.


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> we used the adidas hogu twice...the first time at the Dutch Open and the second time at the ATU/CTU.  It definitely more of a power game.  The problem is that knees score falling down scores it was disaster at the 2009 Dutch Open.
> 
> We used laJust at the US open 3 tImes in both the Sr and JR divisions.
> 
> ...



>>>>>>> Again, the original post was not about if coaches and fighters could adjust.<<<<<<<<

Was knees and falling down the only problem with Adidas?  I would think that falling down, and kneeing were Kyungo and referees should wave off any such point?


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> It could be "dead spots" in the hogu, I do not believe the hogu at the NCTA event were new.



You are on to something. We have a few sets of daedo electronic hogu system, and as you can imagine, they get used quite a lot. One school here spent considerable time figuring out how best to maximize scoring on them. But then a strange thing happened, one of the hogu began failing to register points, no matter how hard you kicked it. Finally it had to get sent back. And I understand the hogu used at NCTA nationals/team trials were not brand new and the thought now is that one of the hogus used there was malfunctioning. We are dealing with electronic and mechanical products, so this kind of thing can and will happen. 

By the way, the match that you saw where one competitor was punting the other and now points went up, was one of the competitors from hawaii? Did you see a narabang (360 roundhouse) which landed squarely foot flush on the hogu at the proper angle and no point? A triple kick where all three kicks landed but no point? Was it the match that drew a large crowd? If so, that competitor won his matches at USAT national events 175-2 (or something like that) one year and his coach won USOC Coach of the Year.


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> You are on to something. We have a few sets of daedo electronic hogu system, and as you can imagine, they get used quite a lot. One school here spent considerable time figuring out how best to maximize scoring on them. But then a strange thing happened, one of the hogu began failing to register points, no matter how hard you kicked it. Finally it had to get sent back. And I understand the hogu used at NCTA nationals/team trials were not brand new and the thought now is that one of the hogus used there was malfunctioning. We are dealing with electronic and mechanical products, so this kind of thing can and will happen.
> 
> By the way, the match that you saw where one competitor was punting the other and now points went up, was one of the competitors from hawaii? Did you see a narabang (360 roundhouse) which landed squarely foot flush on the hogu at the proper angle and no point? A triple kick where all three kicks landed but no point? Was it the match that drew a large crowd? If so, that competitor won his matches at USAT national events 175-2 (or something like that) one year and his coach won USOC Coach of the Year.



That is true. There will be failures in equipment, and also people.  However, new equipment also failed to register extremely powerful blows.  That is where I think the problem lays. 

Yes, I watched that match. I think Master McCutchen (sp?) coached. Yes, the crowd, and myself were wondering why no points for excellent blows, and not only in that match, but MANY other matches as well. Could it have been worn out Daedo?  Yes.  Could it have been that Daedo does not scored round kicks that drive through the hogu and body? IMO, likely.  But I knew that before I event got to the event. My son told me that players can not kick the Daedo with full force and score. They can kick full force to rattle the opponent, but it will likely not score, so why waste energy on doing something that will not score.

In these cases, the Daedo hogu likely determined the out come of the match. 

I think they should remove electronic hogu from all WTF qualifying events, but use them at WTF Open events until years down the road, the bugs get worked out. Tell everyone, that in the future WTF will completely switch over to the electronic hogu, but until then fighters should be encouraged to go to Open's to get the experience to prepare for the future.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think they should remove electronic hogu from all WTF qualifying events, but use them at WTF Open events until years down the road, the bugs get worked out. Tell everyone, that in the future WTF will completely switch over to the electronic hogu, but until then fighters should be encouraged to go to Open's to get the experience to prepare for the future.



Electronic scoring was seen by some at the WTF as the thing that was going to save taekwondo from getting kicked out of the olympics. They will probably be using brand new equipment at London so these types of problems hopefully can be minimized.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Yes, I watched that match. I think Master McCutchen (sp?) coached.



He's our current trailblazer in Hawaii. This weekend, he is hosting a poomsae seminar with Master Raymond Hsu on guidelines. I should be heading out there soon.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Adidas measures air pressure so no electronic sensor is needed on the foot.



the issue with that is scoring by chest bumps, knees and other unintentional contact. The way they wanted to go was to have EPB scoring replace corner judge scoring. But with adidas, you always have to be watching whether it was knee, etc.,


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> Electronic scoring was seen by some at the WTF as the thing that was going to save taekwondo from getting kicked out of the olympics. They will probably be using brand new equipment at London so these types of problems hopefully can be minimized.



I am sure Daedo will put there best effort in to the Olympics. The less problems the better. My problem is not with Daedo as a company or brand. I like all of their equipment, and we use it. I am even fine with it in this current Olympics and hopefully it is consistent so the players are all on an even playing field. 

Again, my issues are with what electronic hogu is doing to Kyorugi.


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## mastercole (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> He's our current trailblazer in Hawaii. This weekend, he is hosting a poomsae seminar with Master Raymond Hsu on guidelines. I should be heading out there soon.



That sounds like a good event, let us know anything interesting.


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## puunui (Apr 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Again, my issues are with what electronic hogu is doing to Kyorugi.



I agree. I think coaches realize the limitations and drawbacks of electronic scoring, and there is a movement lobbying for the return of human corner judging. The history of the development of electronic scoring was that coaches were complaining about human error in scoring points. The response was the development of electronic scoring. Now coaches want to bring back human corners. The response to that from IRs and the WTF is that you wanted electronic scoring to take the human factor out, that is what you get. The coaches response is we wanted electronic scoring that took out bias and lead to fair matches and electronic scoring is not doing that. And that is where the debate stands at the moment. 

We had our recent state championships and people noticed that there was almost no argument or grumbling about scoring this year. We used the old ringmaster with human corners to score matches.


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## Gorilla (Apr 14, 2012)

Master Cole,

They waived off the points when they saw it but it happened way to much and it almost made the matches unworkable.  That Dutch open probably killed addidas in Europe


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## Bagehot (Apr 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> the issue with that is scoring by chest bumps, knees and other unintentional contact. The way they wanted to go was to have EPB scoring replace corner judge scoring. But with adidas, you always have to be watching whether it was knee, etc.,



At the normal impact settings, incidental contact doesn't register. However, if someone using a knee or an elbow does register on the Adidas, it suggests that an illegal technique was used, with an effective enough force to score a point and should, in fact, be penalized by removing the point and declaring a kyung-go. This is one reason I LIKE the Adidas, that if promotes a cleaner fight; not that incidental contact is necessarily intentional, but the Adidas equipment does register improper techniques, and I do think that's a plus.

-- Bagehot


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## Bagehot (Apr 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> We had our recent state championships and people noticed that there was almost no argument or grumbling about scoring this year. We used the old ringmaster with human corners to score matches.



It is still hard to beat Ringmaster as an electronic scoring system, i.e. well-trained humans with good electronic equipment.

-- Bagehot


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

Bagehot said:


> At the normal impact settings, incidental contact doesn't register. However, if someone using a knee or an elbow does register on the Adidas, it suggests that an illegal technique was used, with an effective enough force to score a point and should, in fact, be penalized by removing the point and declaring a kyung-go. This is one reason I LIKE the Adidas, that if promotes a cleaner fight; not that incidental contact is necessarily intentional, but the Adidas equipment does register improper techniques, and I do think that's a plus.
> 
> -- Bagehot



My experience is that the Adidas houg has be nailed, hard to even register.  I can not imagine that bumping hogus would register, unless it was set on junior fly and adults were using that setting. We have never experienced that with the set we have.


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## Gorilla (Apr 17, 2012)

2009 Dutch Open Adidas was the system that was being sanctioned in Europe at the time.  The settings were correct.  The matches were ugly lots of incidental contact lots of points being given and some waived off.  In practice it did not work well.  The IR's did the best they could but the hogu did not perform. The worst that I have seen.

This is against our own self interest the adidas system is the best system for my daughters power game


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## mastercole (Apr 17, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> 2009 Dutch Open Adidas was the system that was being sanctioned in Europe at the time.  The settings were correct.  The matches were ugly lots of incidental contact lots of points being given and some waived off.  In practice it did not work well.  The IR's did the best they could but the hogu did not perform. The worst that I have seen.
> 
> This is against our own self interest the adidas system is the best system for my daughters power game



That's to bad, I wonder if the system I have is an upgrade, or different. I'll have to look at the videos and see. I certainly understand what you are saying.

What did you think of the Dutch Open, will you go back?


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## Gorilla (Apr 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> That's to bad, I wonder if the system I have is an upgrade, or different. I'll have to look at the videos and see. I certainly understand what you are saying.
> 
> What did you think of the Dutch Open, will you go back?



best tournament I have been to...we will probably go next year


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## mastercole (Apr 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> best tournament I have been to...we will probably go next year



Did you go with a team or just on your own?


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## Gorilla (Apr 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Did you go with a team or just on your own?



AAU National team she was on the JR Team that year.  She is currently on the AAU Sr team going to Canada this year Fly div.


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## Bagehot (Apr 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> My experience is that the Adidas houg has be nailed, hard to even register.  I can not imagine that bumping hogus would register, unless it was set on junior fly and adults were using that setting. We have never experienced that with the set we have.



I've rarely seen it happen, certainly not with just "bumping;" but when people offered that reasoning as a "problem," my response was that IF the illegal technique was that strong, it SHOULD register, and then that requires the deduction and point removal. The Adidas Hogul would require a sincere application of the illegal technique rule, which I thought was a "plus" if and when it happened. 

In our three years of training with it, we like it because 1) it is simple, 2) does not require additional equipment socks that wear out, 3) is consistent, and 4) uniformly scores the variety of legal kicks (i.e. back kicks). 

My experiences with LaJust were negative, period. Daedo, OK, but the simplicity of the Adidas system seems more consistent with uniform results over the lifetime of the equipment. 

Unfortunately, WTF went with the idea before the technology was demonstrated sufficiently reliable and consistent. It was a triumph of politics over reasonableness. 

-- Bagehot


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## Tenchi (Apr 30, 2012)

Bagehot said:


> I've rarely seen it happen, certainly not with just "bumping;" but when people offered that reasoning as a "problem," my response was that IF the illegal technique was that strong, it SHOULD register, and then that requires the deduction and point removal. The Adidas Hogul would require a sincere application of the illegal technique rule, which I thought was a "plus" if and when it happened.
> 
> In our three years of training with it, we like it because 1) it is simple, 2) does not require additional equipment socks that wear out, 3) is consistent, and 4) uniformly scores the variety of legal kicks (i.e. back kicks).
> 
> ...



On those terms, yes, Adidas would be for the best. The problem is that there is a variety of situations which make it impossible to determine if a point was gained through a legal technique or not. I can give the simple example of a fighter attacking, striking the hogu, and bumping into the opponent for protection. The attack may have failed to achieve point, but the bump could have been powerful enough. It is not easy for the judges to determine what originated the point in this and other situations. Daedo system is far from perfect, but one thing is sure, it ensures that the scoring is exclusively done through contact with the foot. Regarding the required sock, it already existed before the electronic hogu and were used as mandatory protections that came up alongside the gloves.

There is still, however, a pressure problem with the Daedo system. If your foot makes contact with the opponent's hogu and you put enough pressure on that area, be it with hand or body, there can be scoring. It's a problem I have felt victim of, but apparently that is being solved. I saw something on another thread regarding a new type of reading on the sock that determined speed as well (or something along those lines), just to check if the foot had actually traveled in a kick motion in order to score.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 30, 2012)

Manny said:


> So what we can do?


We can 'do' without them.  In sport fencing, I can definitely see the need.  The tips of fencing weapons are, aside from the bullets fired from a riffle, the fastest moving object in sports and judges legitimately cannot visually cue each and every touch.  In taekwondo, however, there is not any need for such devices.  

At one time, one of the Korean federations was pushing to make kendo an Olympic sport.  Needless to say, Japan vigorously resisted.  Not sure if the issue is dead or not, though I haven't heard anything recently.  But I certainly do hope that it is good and truly dead.  I would hate to see kendo subjected to such mechanical scoring mechanisms.  It isn't necessary and it only detracts.

I feel very strong the same about the effect of electric hogu on taekwondo.  Not needed.  Not one bit.


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## Bagehot (Apr 30, 2012)

mastercole said:


> My experience is that the Adidas hogul has be nailed, hard to even register.  I can not imagine that bumping hogus would register, unless it was set on junior fly and adults were using that setting. We have never experienced that with the set we have.



We've got three sets, and have used them quite a bit, and "bumping" never scored. We had them out last week and fiddled around trying to get "bumps" to score and even though the students were just about knocking each other down with chest bumps, it just wasn't scoring; the surface distribution of the force is just too great. I am going to strap some on some Judo students this week, backwards, and see if hard throws onto the mats will produce a score.

-- Bagehot


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