# Desperate Falcons - which way?



## michaeledward (Feb 28, 2004)

OK.... so we were working on Desperate Falcons and I have a question about which way we turn the body. Here is the basic breakdown of the technique as it was taught to me.

1.Front two hand wrist grab.
2.Lock attackers hands together by bringing right hand under left hand.
3.Step forward into a left neutral bow, as you pull attacker toward your right (hands still locked).
4.Double strike - Left backfist to the face / Right fist to mid-section
5.Grab attackers right shoulder with left hand while driving an uppercut to chin.
6.Follow upper cut with an upward elbow and then an inward elbow (driving attacker down and to his right)
7.Hammerfist strike to the attackers kidney as you move to a rear bow stance.
8.Rear - Crossover and spread the attackers left leg.
9. Knee the inside of the attackers right thigh and move out.

The question comes in step 6 above:
If I use an inward right elbow, driving the attacker over and to his right, he is now on my center line. One of our instructors suggested pushing the attacker to his left with the hand holding the attackers right shoulder, opening the kidney shot directly infront of me, eliminating the rear bow and the rear crossover. The body position is a bit more difficult to complete the inner thigh strike, but I keep my centerline closed off a bit more.

So, while not looking for a concensous, how do you work through this technique?

Thanks, - Mike


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> OK.... so we were working on Desperate Falcons and I have a question about which way we turn the body. Here is the basic breakdown of the technique as it was taught to me.
> 
> 1.Front two hand wrist grab.
> 2.Lock attackers hands together by bringing right hand under left hand.
> ...



Here is how we do it.............

*DESPERATE FALCONS* (Front - Two Hand Direct Grabs To Both Wrists)

1.  Standing naturally, step forward with your left foot into a left neutral bow (facing 12 o'clock). As you step forward circle both of your arms clockwise having them travel under, around, and over your opponent's right wrist. This explosive action should continue diagonally and down toward your right hip to loosen or release your opponent's grasps, bring his arms and head down, and cancel your opponent's height and width zones.    

2.  Immediately pivot into a left forward bow (facing 12 o'clock). Without totally disengaging from your opponent's arms execute a left outward back knuckle strike to your opponent's face. Simultaneously deliver a right thrusting vertical punch to his right ribcage. The action of both strikes is accomplished by needling an open-ended triangle along your opponent's right arm as they travel to their targets. (This should force your opponent back.)

3.  Without hesitation step forward into a right 45 degree cat stance toward 12 o'clock and deliver a right vertical or diagonal back knuckle strike to your opponent's right temple. With this action have your left hand check and press down against your opponent's right arm. (This should cause intense pain.)

4.  Without loss of forward momentum, step forward with your right foot into a right neutral bow (facing 12 o'clock). Your right leg should hug the inside of your opponent's right leg. While stepping forward execute a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's face. Your left hand continues to check and press down against your opponent's right arm. (Your elbow strike should drive your opponent's head back.)

5.  Pivot into a right reverse wide kneel to buckle the inside of your opponent's right leg. While pivoting, deliver a right downward diagonal hammerfist to your opponent's right kidney. During these actions your left hand continues to press your opponent's right arm down and across his body. (The buckle should force your opponent's right knee out and help to expose his kidney. The kidney strike should cause your opponent to drop toward the ground.)

6.  Execute a left rear crossover toward 1:30, and without loss of momentum plant your right leg into a right reverse bow in sync with a universal body check to buckle the inside of your opponent's left leg. (This should force your opponent's left leg to spread.) 

7.  Execute a right knee strike to the inside of your opponent's right thigh. The path of travel of your right knee strike and body is toward 7:30. 

8.  From the Point of Contact of your right knee strike, execute a right front crossover, and cover out twice toward 7:30. 


 :asian:


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## pete (Feb 28, 2004)

pretty much the same as GD7, except we circle the attackers right wrist clockwise and strike it againt his own left wrist, thereby sandwiching the attackers wrists between our own... from that point, the attacker should release and we put more emphysis on controlling him with an arm bar, by grasping his right forearm with your left hand and simultaneously pulling the fingers of his right hand back with your left as you apply pressure under his right elbow with your left arm.  his left hand is still trapped in the sandwich.

from there you'd pick up from #2's left backfist/right vertical punch...


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 28, 2004)

Uhhhh..... I have a question.  I'm not trying to badmouth the technique as I think it has some good sequences in it, but when was the last time you ever saw someone grab someone else by the wrists like this (outside of the kenpo school).  I have seen people people do a two handed wrist grab against an attacker in a boxing position (hands up in front of their face, not hands palm down out in front).  Not that this is that much more common, but I've at least seen the attack happen.  

In this case all you would need to do to break the hold is to circle your left hand up and right, while circling your right hand down a left.  This is essentially a Gripping talon like manuever just on the other side.  However, now as you step through you can grab your opponents right arm and pull to your hip while performing a left hook punch or, more directly, a left backknuckle depending on whether you choose to orbit your left arm or track along your opponents.  Next you would punch with the right arm and then begin moving through your cat and on into your RNB the strikes somewhat resemble Gathering clouds, except the backknuckle is going to the face. From here on out you could finish off the same as you normally would or you could change it up a little.  

I personally have never liked all the twist stances and crossovers when you are on the inside of an opponent.  I would go with just a simple leg sweep or knee to the inner thigh.  If you feel you need more you could easily do a knife edge kick to the knee of the other leg without having to go through all those transitions.  Just seems like alot of unnecessary footwork.


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## kenpo_cory (Feb 28, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> In this case all you would need to do to break the hold is to circle your left hand up and right, while circling your right hand down a left.



That is exactly how we start this tech as I was shown it. After this initial move we just rotate to a forward bow with a left back knuckle to the face and right vertical punch to the chest. We then step through to a right neutral bow while executing a right knee to the inside of their right thigh and plant with a right inward elbow to the face. Then right back knuckle, right inward eyehook and right scoop kick to the groin. This is of course a very brief explanation of how we do this technique.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Uhhhh..... I have a question.  I'm not trying to badmouth the technique as I think it has some good sequences in it, but when was the last time you ever saw someone grab someone else by the wrists like this (outside of the kenpo school).  I have seen people people do a two handed wrist grab against an attacker in a boxing position (hands up in front of their face, not hands palm down out in front).  Not that this is that much more common, but I've at least seen the attack happen.
> 
> In this case all you would need to do to break the hold is to circle your left hand up and right, while circling your right hand down a left.  This is essentially a Gripping talon like manuever just on the other side.  However, now as you step through you can grab your opponents right arm and pull to your hip while performing a left hook punch or, more directly, a left backknuckle depending on whether you choose to orbit your left arm or track along your opponents.  Next you would punch with the right arm and then begin moving through your cat and on into your RNB the strikes somewhat resemble Gathering clouds, except the backknuckle is going to the face. From here on out you could finish off the same as you normally would or you could change it up a little.
> 
> I personally have never liked all the twist stances and crossovers when you are on the inside of an opponent.  I would go with just a simple leg sweep or knee to the inner thigh.  If you feel you need more you could easily do a knife edge kick to the knee of the other leg without having to go through all those transitions.  Just seems like alot of unnecessary footwork.



An understandable question for sure, Kenpo Yahoo!   

Allow me to give my perspective on your thoughts.   This or any of our _techniques_ within our American Kenpo Curriculums (any of them), are merely exemplary descriptions which can and do have numerous possible variations (variable expansions) that will work.   Each must be evaluated on the numerous lessons or skills that can be achieved through study of such movements.   While all have "self defense" overcoats...... there is much more to learn from their practice and training.   

We have 3 "Phases" *ideal ~ what if ~ and formulation.*

In the "Ideal" phase some of the objectives are to instruct and illustrate the basic elements of self defense: teach coordination, introduce targets, teach formation of natural weapons, learn various positions and their uses, how to maneuver your body (or any portion arms, legs, body), become aware of range, become acquainted with strategies, consider environmental issues, and conditioning, all through these sequential series.

Then, in the "What If" phase, we option the manure out of them and try to squeeze every drop of interpretation that can be a possibility without compromising the logic or integrity of the move.   Bottom line is ~ there are *many* possibilities to get out of a particular hold or different ways of defending oneself in any of the curriculums techniques.   

As Instructors and teachers we must realize however that there must be an organized method to our madness or a *{{PROCESS}}* to follow in which to introduce, drill, improve, expand, which finally ends with the internalization of   those <beginning ideas> into extemporaneous action when triggered.

Advanced Individuals debate less on the specific techniques as a whole, but rather they examine the principles, merits or possible differing examples of reaching the same outcome with greater ease.  

So, in conclusion, there could be numerous possibilities to any given scenario that all could be emeritus depending on how it fits into the rest of the syllabus it is positioned in.


:asian:


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 28, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> An understandable question for sure, Kenpo Yahoo!
> 
> Allow me to give my perspective on your thoughts. This or any of our _techniques_ within our American Kenpo Curriculums (any of them), are merely exemplary descriptions which can and do have numerous possible variations (variable expansions) that will work. Each must be evaluated on the numerous lessons or skills that can be achieved through study of such movements. While all have "self defense" overcoats...... there is much more to learn from their practice and training.
> 
> ...


The force is strong with this one as well. I might also add the techniques are taught at the level they are as listed in Infinite Insights Vol 5 to introduce these techniques sequentially to the student, with the CTP's to match. The idea of any technique is to engrain the motion so it becomes a natural movement, a trained response to given stimuli. Can everyone say Pavlov?http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1904/pavlov.jpg

Experiments carried out by Pavlov and his pupils showed that conditioned reflexes originate in the cerebral cortex, which acts as the «prime distributor and organizer of all activity of the organism» and which is responsible for the very delicate equilibrium of an animal with its environment. In 1905 it was established that any external agent could, by coinciding in time with an ordinary reflex, become the conditioned signal for the formation of a new conditioned reflex. In connection with the discovery of this general postulate Pavlov proceeded to investigate «artificial conditioned reflexes». Research in Pavlov's laboratories over a number of years revealed for the first time the basic laws governing the functioning of the cortex of the great hemispheres. Many physiologists were drawn to the problem of developing Pavlov's basic laws governing the activity of the cerebrum. As a result of all this research there emerged an integrated Pavlovian theory on higher nervous activity. 

Dark Lord


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## kenpo_cory (Feb 28, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> The force is strong with this one as well. I might also add the techniques are taught at the level they are as listed in Infinite Insights Vol 5 to introduce these techniques sequentially to the student, with the CTP's to match. The idea of any technique is to engrain the motion so it becomes a natural movement, a trained response to given stimuli. Can everyone say Pavlov?http://www.nobel.se/medicine/laureates/1904/pavlov.jpg
> 
> Experiments carried out by Pavlov and his pupils showed that conditioned reflexes originate in the cerebral cortex, which acts as the «prime distributor and organizer of all activity of the organism» and which is responsible for the very delicate equilibrium of an animal with its environment. In 1905 it was established that any external agent could, by coinciding in time with an ordinary reflex, become the conditioned signal for the formation of a new conditioned reflex. In connection with the discovery of this general postulate Pavlov proceeded to investigate «artificial conditioned reflexes». Research in Pavlov's laboratories over a number of years revealed for the first time the basic laws governing the functioning of the cortex of the great hemispheres. Many physiologists were drawn to the problem of developing Pavlov's basic laws governing the activity of the cerebrum. As a result of all this research there emerged an integrated Pavlovian theory on higher nervous activity.
> 
> Dark Lord



Was that the guy who experimented with the salivating dog?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 28, 2004)

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> Was that the guy who experimented with the salivating dog?


http://www.nobel.se/medicine/educational/pavlov/

Dark Lord


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> The force is strong with this one as well.
> 
> I might also add the techniques are taught at the level they are as listed in Infinite Insights Vol 5 to introduce these techniques sequentially to the student, with the CTP's to match. ed Pavlovian theory on higher nervous activity.
> Dark Lord



:jedi1:   I feel a great disturbance in the Force!!!!   

Not to beat a  :deadhorse but the techniques that are listed in the Insights of the 80's are no more valid than the 32 system of the '60's & or the so called 16 system that was being tailored for the 90's and beyond.

The Concepts ~ Theories ~ and Principles had *no* definite insert positions.  The were to be taught of course, but there were no specific outlines as to what belt they should be required on only suggestions which could be adjusted for the student or studio.    :asian: 

If you have any documentation to the contrary I would like to see it.   So I can update my files that Mr. Parker gave me.

 :uhyeah:  :asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Feb 29, 2004)

I've actually read quite a bit about the Pavlov response, and I am aware of the three "phases" of kenpo (those being ideal, what if, and formulation).  However, if we are to properly condition ourselves to effectively respond to aggressive outside stimuli, would it not be prudent to examine (or in this case re-examine) the ideal stage of our techniques?  

Shouldn't the Ideal phase of our techniques represent the most probable scenarios that we will face and all other scenarios are left to the later phases of study?  I realize that it is impossible to account for all possible attacks, as the combinations become endless.  However, there are a number of techniques that I don't believe could ever be pulled off in the Ideal phase either because no one in their right mind would ever attack you in that manner, or because the techniques don't take into account the possible responses of your opponent to your numerous strikes.  As for the unlikely attacks, sure it's as simple as slightly adjusting a few angles or strikes to compensate, but why not do this to begin with?  Instead we spend years developing a "Pavlovian" response towards a stimuli that most people will only experience within the confines of their studio or learning environment.  Yet we spend less time focusing on the more likely possibilities, thus developing a weaker sensitivity to the prescribed stimuli.  

Just some thoughts.  What are yours?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 29, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I've actually read quite a bit about the Pavlov response, and I am aware of the three "phases" of kenpo (those being ideal, what if, and formulation). However, if we are to properly condition ourselves to effectively respond to aggressive outside stimuli, would it not be prudent to examine (or in this case re-examine) the ideal stage of our techniques?
> 
> Shouldn't the Ideal phase of our techniques represent the most probable scenarios that we will face and all other scenarios are left to the later phases of study? I realize that it is impossible to account for all possible attacks, as the combinations become endless. However, there are a number of techniques that I don't believe could ever be pulled off in the Ideal phase either because no one in their right mind would ever attack you in that manner, or because the techniques don't take into account the possible responses of your opponent to your numerous strikes. As for the unlikely attacks, sure it's as simple as slightly adjusting a few angles or strikes to compensate, but why not do this to begin with? Instead we spend years developing a "Pavlovian" response towards a stimuli that most people will only experience within the confines of their studio or learning environment. Yet we spend less time focusing on the more likely possibilities, thus developing a weaker sensitivity to the prescribed stimuli.
> 
> Just some thoughts. What are yours?


No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh?    So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible.  In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it?    



Dark Lord


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## Blindside (Feb 29, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh?    So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible.  In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it? Dark Lord




Do you know you come off as combative and rude?  I can think of two reasons why these techniques would be included but not necessarily be "street" techniques

1) artifact from jujitsu techniques
2) category completion for grabs

There are a number of other techniques that also raise flags as not being probable attacks that are included in the system, their inclusion may be for similar reasons.  

Lamont


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 29, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> If we are to properly condition ourselves to effectively respond to aggressive outside stimuli, would it not be prudent to examine (or in this case re-examine) the ideal stage of our techniques?



I guess a clearer definition of just what the "Ideal" means could be in order.  I do/have heard and realize that many apply different meanings which certainly changes the focus of the term.  If one determines and defines a particular self defense technique as "the ultimate scenario" response, or reaction for any given attack, then many of the traditional technique sequences could come under widespread scrutiny.  

However, if the "ideal phase" of the curriculum is viewed as a training platform to introduce the _basics_ of our self defense system to an individual (that in many cases has "zero" knowledge at this point) it can be a very useful stage or "phase" which like in the lower levels of grade school you introduce various scenarios to the students that they {at that stage of understanding} they can comprehend until such a time is that they can utilize much more sophisticated means.  After all, we practice writing and mathematics to develop skills thru examples or problems to learn possibilities that will in some fashion later in life be useful to us yet, the exact examples taught may NEVER be experienced.... i.e.,  "Mary had 10 apples, she gave 7 to Jim and 2 to Bill, however, Jim gave 3 back to Mary, and ate 1.   How many apples does Mary now have?  Now will this actually happen.... it could but probably not.... but we do learn thru the example studied.   I think you get my point.   There is much more to learn from the Ideal phase other than ONLY the exact self defense application example.


			
				Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Kenpo Yahoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 29, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh?    So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible.  In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it?
> Dark Lord



Clyde, I have to agree with you here on this one.   But I think I explained in the above post, we find many values in the techniques not just the surface or superficial meaning or execution of any of the material that Mr. Parker developed.   He was way to intelligent to just put our BS for us...... I concur.

Hope you are doing fine!

 %-}


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 29, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No one in their right might would attack you in the manner the techniques describe huh?    So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible.  In fact, if you believe that it's BS, why are you bothering to do it?
> Dark Lord





			
				Blindside said:
			
		

> Do you know you come off as combative and rude? Lamont



Lamont, I think you misunderstood what the Dark Kenpo Lord was saying.

:asian:


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 29, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Do you know you come off as combative and rude? I can think of two reasons why these techniques would be included but not necessarily be "street" techniques
> 
> 1) artifact from jujitsu techniques
> 2) category completion for grabs
> ...


Of course I'm combative and rude, I am the Dark Kenpo Lord.

I'm curious, which techniques would you say raise flags as not being probable attacks? Please be complete with an explanation for each.

Dark Lord


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## Blindside (Feb 29, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Of course I'm combative and rude, I am the Dark Kenpo Lord.
> 
> I'm curious, which techniques would you say raise flags as not being probable attacks? Please be complete with an explanation for each.
> 
> Dark Lord



To name one, Twisted Twig.

I suspect that it is improbable that I will be attacked by a rabid jujitsuka in the near future, Are small joint manipulations common street attacks in your area?  Perhaps you are faced with a group of Cobra Kai aikidoka running unchecked through the streets.  

Please note that I am not skeptical about the validity of the technique or even its place in AK curriculum.  Improbable techniques can teach fine examples of motion, just that  there are some techniques that are less likely and others that are more likely.

Lamont

PS:  If this is Clyde O'Briant, why are you anonymous in this board after ranting about "anonypussies" on other boards?  If this is not the same Clyde, then please ignore this.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 29, 2004)

Blindside said:
			
		

> To name one, Twisted Twig.
> 
> I suspect that it is improbable that I will be attacked by a rabid jujitsuka in the near future, Are small joint manipulations common street attacks in your area? Perhaps you are faced with a group of Cobra Kai aikidoka running unchecked through the streets.
> 
> Lamont


This all depends on the nature of the attack.     When you dummy for this technique, do you stand there and give the attacker your arm?   Is this a handshake you missed Gift of Destruction or  a wrist grab you missed Crossing Talon on?   You see, it's not the attack, it's the nature of the attack, and the circumstances leading up to it that put you in the probable position for the techniques, you just haven't seen them applied yet.   I would venture to say very few people are going to give their head and neck to an opponent to allow them to do Locking Horns either but there the technique is in Orange.

Dark Lord


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 1, 2004)

> DKL
> You see, it's not the attack, it's the nature of the attack, and the circumstances leading up to it that put you in the probable position for the techniques, you just haven't seen them applied yet.



Interesting so what are the circumstances that lead up to a double wrist grab (hands palm down directly in front of you)?  This is a 3rd brown technique, have your students not developed any degree of situational awareness at this point?  Should this idea not be built into the technique or do we just assume that the student is still so unaware that they will have to begin from a natural stance?

In your expert opinion, what is the purpose of a grab or hug? Are these not merely precursors to further action?  Hell don't we teach our students to grab a hold of their opponent and to pull them off balance in order to punch them in B1a and Darting Mace?  Do we not grab our opponents with the intent to spin them around and throw them into some environmental object in Taming the mace or wrangle them down into an oncoming knee in backbreaker?  So what exactly is the attackers intent in Desperate Falcons?  How does this attack differ from oh say..... Begging Hands?  Does it really differ enough to warrant a completely different technique?  

I understand and even agree with, at least to some extent, Mr. C's explanation of the ideal phase. 



> DKL
> So, please inform us why you think Mr. Parker put that BS in the system if you don't think it's credible.



Actually, I'm beginning to believe that Mr. Parker was indeed trying to create a system that he could easily market and sell (i.e. commercial kenpo).  Not necessarily one that he would use himself, as many people have mentioned he had his own way of doing things.  Otherwise why would there be a need for things like category completion, etc.?  This is about the only reason I can come up with as to why certain things exist within the EPAK curriculum.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Mar 1, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Interesting so what are the circumstances that lead up to a double wrist grab (hands palm down directly in front of you)? This is a 3rd brown technique, have your students not developed any degree of situational awareness at this point? Should this idea not be built into the technique or do we just assume that the student is still so unaware that they will have to begin from a natural stance?
> 
> In your expert opinion, what is the purpose of a grab or hug? Are these not merely precursors to further action? Hell don't we teach our students to grab a hold of their opponent and to pull them off balance in order to punch them in B1a and Darting Mace? Do we not grab our opponents with the intent to spin them around and throw them into some environmental object in Taming the mace or wrangle them down into an oncoming knee in backbreaker? So what exactly is the attackers intent in Desperate Falcons? How does this attack differ from oh say..... Begging Hands? Does it really differ enough to warrant a completely different technique?
> 
> ...


Yes, there is enough of a difference in the nature of the attack from Begging Hands to Desperate Falcons to warrant a different technique, you just don't have the experience to tell the difference. Why are you bothering to do Kenpo if you don't believe it? Doesn't make sense to study an art you deem commercial does it? Maybe you should try TKD or TSD.   Some people are just silly.

Dark Lord


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 1, 2004)

> Yes, there is enough of a difference in the nature of the attack from Begging Hands to Desperate Falcons to warrant a different technique, you just don't have the experience to tell the difference.



Really???  And just what might that difference be?



> Interesting so what are the circumstances that lead up to a double wrist grab



You kind of ignored this? Also, in your opinion, what is the progression of hostility from a double wrist grab? Finally, isn't the need for this SPECIFIC technique overcome by the least bit of situational awareness (i.e. hands up,"hey buddy I don't want to fight")???  



> Why are you bothering to do Kenpo if you don't believe it? Doesn't make sense to study an art you deem commercial does it?



I began my MA training in the EPAK curriculum, but have sense moved on to another curriculum. It is a derivative that bears similiarities to EPAK, but in many aspects the two are as different as night and day.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Mar 1, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> Really??? And just what might that difference be?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I may or may not use the hands up, I may not have time nor inclination to do so. My best oppurtunity for strikes could be with my legs, my hands at my side. Perceptual speed is the key for any technique, whether they're grabbing you or striking at you. Visual and Physical perceptional skills are needed to internalize the art and unfortunately, most do not have or teach this aspect.

I ignored alot of your post because it was, well, in a word, stupid.

You began in the EPAK curriculum but now do one that bears similarities to it. What exactly are you doing then if not Kenpo? Why would you post here, specifically on the EPAK curriculum, if you're no long doing it? Do you not have a specific board for your curriculum here http://www.akki.com/indexs/indexpage.htm ?


BTW, if you're not doing EPAK, don't lecture me, or any others for that matter, on how to do it, I AM doing it, and I understand it.


Dark Lord


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## michaeledward (Mar 1, 2004)

Wow ... this has degraded fast. Makes me sorry I started the post.

Let me say this ... I learned this technique, perhaps, 6 months ago. In an advanced class, recently, we discussed this technique and came up with a couple of things that didn't make sense. We discussed alterations to address those items but never really resolved the question. By posting here, I wanted to get others opinions about the technique to help my understanding of it. I really like the way GoldenDragon posted the technique, it explains several of the weak points in the way I run the technique, but it also has a move or two that I think is less effective. Oh, well. As I said, I don't think we will find a consensous.

As to the type of Attack ... I don't know if it is realistic, or not. And I don't think it really matters. I am learning a series of motions that, if needed, would be able to be applied in an act of self-defense. I could very easily see a situation where I could run a portion of this technique ... follow along, if you will.

Someone throws a right hook punch, hitting me in the jaw, following through, so now I am on the outside of his right-arm and turned a bit to 3 o'clock ... couldn't I start the technique from the that position .... with the left back fist to the face? And maybe I would only run the technique as far as the kidney strike.

Sure, if I was any good at this Martial Arts stuff, I wouldn't have been hit at all, or hell, I probably would have developed enough situational awareness to get the hell out of dodge before the shooting started ... but ... if I wasn't that quick on the uptake, by studying EPAK, I will have learned some of the ways I can move my body to defend myself, and inflict pain on an aggressor, and hopefully, live to brag about it another day. And then, hopefully, I will learn enough to prevent the next attack another day.

Thanks to all for their input - Mike


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## Michael Billings (Mar 1, 2004)

... like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way.  So lets expand the parameters to our students.  How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?  

 Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip?  The way I teach it, it certainly would.  Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof.  Is it useful somewhere within the system?  And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?

 -Michael


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## jeffkyle (Mar 1, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> ... like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way.  So lets expand the parameters to our students.  How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?
> 
> Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip?  The way I teach it, it certainly would.  Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof.  Is it useful somewhere within the system?  And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?
> 
> -Michael



I second that!  Well Said.  Also in my experience i have had women grab both of my wrists like that (in a playful manner not serious one).  It surprises the heck out of them when next thing they know they are tied up and have been forced to let go of me.   
It is all in fun though.  

Speak for yourself on the Burly part Mr. Billings.


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## dcence (Mar 1, 2004)

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Also in my experience i have had women grab both of my wrists like that (in a playful manner not serious one).  It surprises the heck out of them when next thing they know they are tied up and have been forced to let go of me.
> It is all in fun though.



I would clap behind my back and pucker if this happened to me -- assuming she is good looking... at least before I got married....


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Mar 1, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> ... like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way. So lets expand the parameters to our students. How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?
> 
> Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip? The way I teach it, it certainly would. Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof. Is it useful somewhere within the system? And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?
> 
> -Michael


This one has great potential in the force.

Dark Lord


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Mar 2, 2004)

> Billings
> Big guys like us, probably DON'T get attacked this way. So lets expand the parameters to our students. How many of you think that some abusive males may grab a woman's wrists with his hands?
> 
> Would this technique's initial move effectively release the grip? The way I teach it, it certainly would. Don't assume it is "all about you" when analyzing the effectiveness of any technique, or part thereof. Is it useful somewhere within the system? And secondly, to whom and in what circumstances?



When did we begin to qualify self-defense techniques based on sex (no... not the verb, the noun :uhyeah: )?

I have no doubt that the initial move would release the grip, that was not in question.  However, what was in question was the probability that anyone would ever be grabbed in this manner.  Also, If anyone were ever to be grabbed in this fashion, what would be the attackers likely intent (i.e. reason for performing a double wrist grab, what does this accomplish) as well as the likely progression of events after this particular grab.  We all know that certain holds or grabs are precursors to more aggressive action? So what is the progression? 

Clyde....    excuse me "annonypuss", as you tend to call eveyone else who posts under pseudonyms, stated that my inquiries were stupid.  That a possible reason his hands may be at his side.... well why don't I just let you hear it from him. 


> I may not have time nor inclination to do so. My best oppurtunity for strikes could be with my legs, my hands at my side.


If this is the case, then what is the point of this technique?  Does the tech Begging Hands not lead off with a kick hands chambered at the side from breaking the hold which I might add is another two handed wrist grab.   

My whole point is that as the student trains and hopefully becomes smarter they will respond differently then they would have at a previous level.  So what is the purpose of treating the beginning of each and every technique the same as if the students were still responding to their environments as white or yellow belts?  Why wouldn't their hands be up? Why wouldn't they be in a neutral bow?  Shouldn't each belt level build not only on the mechanics but the strategies of the level that preceeded it?  

Why doesn't it go like this,"When you are a purple belt you may get grabbed like this so you do technique x, but you should be looking for this.  However, by putting your hands up you may expose yourself to this, so you will need to understand how to defend against y.  Later on z may come into play."
This becomes the game you play for the situation you find yourself in.  


> BTW, if you're not doing EPAK, don't lecture me, or any others for that matter, on how to do it, I AM doing it, and I understand it.


I'm sorry that you feel as if I'm lecturing you Clyde this started out as a farely enjoyable discussion.  Don't forget that you were the one who started in with the negative posting.  I actually appreciated Mr. Conatser's reply and had intended to continue discussing the merits of the ideal phase, but instead you came in hair flying because someone "ATTACKED" your curriculum.  All I did was ask a few questions regarding the reasons that a 3rd brown student would need another technique beginning from a natural stance two handed wrist grab.  Geez, I mean come on aren't you like a 6th degree blackbelt?  I thought you might know something about the nature of the attack?  You said you did, it's the only reason I asked.

You obviously feel that I shouldn't post on EPAK because I don't "do it" anymore. My experience with EPAK may be limited to just a couple of years, but you still feel compelled to post on PMAK ( I kinda like this little abbreviation) and you have almost no experience in this system.  This seems to be just another hypocritical statement.


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 2, 2004)

Kenpo Yahoo said:
			
		

> I actually appreciated Mr. Conatser's reply.



thanks. :asian:


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