# Would you explain me?



## Manny (Sep 30, 2010)

Would you explain me the diferences beetwen Japanese Karate and Okinawan Karate? Where was thre birth place of karate? 

Manny


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 30, 2010)

Manny said:


> Would you explain me the diferences beetwen Japanese Karate and Okinawan Karate? Where was thre birth place of karate?
> 
> Manny



I am not an expert, but as I understand it, karate began on Okinawa, as an amalgamation between native Okinawan self-defense techniques and those adopted by Okinawans from various Chinese self-defense techniques.  The term itself, 'karate' was originally translated as 'China Hand' and was later changed to mean 'Empty Hand'.

Gichin Funikoshi, the originator of Shotokan, brought karate to the Japanese mainland and made some changes to the karate he had learned on Okinawa in order to make it more acceptable to the Japanese.

Since that time, there have been crossovers in style - Japanese karate techniques moving into Okinawan styles and vice-versa.

But karate itself, as karate, comes from Okinawa.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 30, 2010)

Yep, agreed with Bill there. From memory, the name change was in the early 1900's (the 20's or 30's, I think....).

In terms of the actual differences between them, well, there are always differences between systems, but in very broad strokes, Okinawan systems tend more towards classic straight-line actions, strong stances, straight kicks, a larger focus on kobudo (old-style weaponry... and for the record, I'm talking about things such as Tekko, Tinbe, Nunti etc, as well as the more well-known Nunchaku, Tonfa, Sai etc), sometimes as a completely different system, and a larger focus on traditional conditioning, such as Hojo Undo.

Japanese systems have dominantly taken sporting aspects on as well as the more "traditional" aspects of kata training and others. There are more kicks, and the kicks are a greater range, including different angles (the somewhat classic Mawashi Geri, or Roundhouse Kick, is not an "original" Karate action. It was introduced by Funokoshi Yoshitake, Funakoshi Gichin's son) such as hooking and spinning kicks. Some systems have taken sporting aspects as a dominant aspect of their training, such as Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate, developed pretty much specifically to win tournaments, or Kyokushinkai Karate, whose methods of conditioning training include full contact competition and sparring. Very tough guys.

Bear in mind that these are, really, still generalisations. Wado Ryu, for instance, is a modern Japanese Karate system, but is less concerned with competition, and has more of a "traditional" feel to it. It was developed from Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu, and is sometimes considered a branch of that Jujutsu Ryu.


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## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2010)

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90262


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## Manny (Sep 30, 2010)

Ok and thank you, it seems to me then, okinawa is the birth place of _Kara Te_ and was brought to Japan by _G.Funakoshi._

_Okinawan Kara Te _is a straight line action with strong stances and Kobudo.

_G.Funakoshi _made okinawan karate a little fancier with some more kicks, no kobudo not so linear and made it sporty.

I think in order to spread Kara Te to the masses Funakoshi had to adopt in some way the G. Kano methodology making the karate not so hard and sportier, as long as I know Funakoshi taught in Universities and Schools and made karate a part of education program, in Okinawa the Karate was taught to few people and was something more a family tradition.

WTF Tae Kwon Do is in some way like the Shotokan Karate, is available to the mases and is sports oriented too.

A karateka friend of mine told me yestarday Shotokan it's no karate at all, because it's too sporty and does not teach weapons.

Manny


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## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2010)

Manny said:


> Ok and thank you, it seems to me then, okinawa is the birth place of _Kara Te_ and was brought to Japan by _G.Funakoshi._
> 
> _Okinawan Kara Te _is a straight line action with strong stances and Kobudo.
> 
> _G.Funakoshi _made okinawan karate a little fancier with some more kicks, no kobudo not so linear and made it sporty.



Some Okinawan karate is linear (perhaps some branches of Shorin-ryu if we want to generalize), but not all.  Go look at kata and two man drills from Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu... They are anything but linear.  



Manny said:


> A karateka friend of mine told me yestarday Shotokan it's no karate at all, because it's too sporty and does not teach weapons.



I think he is displaying some style snobbery.  Not all Shotokan is the same.


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## Manny (Sep 30, 2010)

Dancing alone and all the guys, my understanding of karate and the diferent ryus or styles is moderate, so I can't talk of this topic but I like to learn. I can't say Shotokan is not karate like my friend said, he has practiced karate for varius years and his opinion is that "his opinion".

One of my partners in TKD is a second degree black belt in Karate Shotokan, his moves and techs are very good and he swears Shotokan is the best Karate, but again that's his opinion.

I can't say Shotokan is not Karate or Goju is better than Uechy or the best is Kyokushin because I don't know them very well to say an opinion.

My friends cousing aproached me and asked me, from that point derived this post.

Forgive me if I bother some karatekas here, it was not my intention.

One thing I want to ad is I would like to learn some Karate too, to gaing knowledge in other MA and because I really love Martial Arts.

Thank you very much again for inform me about the diferences, BTW the only karate dojos in my city are Shotokan and Okinawa Karate Do Franchaise  dojos (Shito-Ryu).

Manny


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## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2010)

> Dancing alone and all the guys, my understanding of karate and the  diferent ryus or styles is moderate, so I can't talk of this topic but I  like to learn. I can't say Shotokan is not karate like my friend said,  he has practiced karate for varius years and his opinion is that "his  opinion".
> 
> One of my partners in TKD is a second degree black belt in Karate  Shotokan, his moves and techs are very good and he swears Shotokan is  the best Karate, but again that's his opinion.
> 
> I can't say Shotokan is not Karate or Goju is better than Uechy or the  best is Kyokushin because I don't know them very well to say an opinion.



There is no universal 'best'.  Some styles might resonate better with a particular individual due to body type and personal affinity for the techniques, but that only makes the style best for them only, not for everyone else too.

If your friend doesn't think Shotokan is karate, he likely doesn't have a great opinion about Kyokushin or even taekwondo either.  <shrugs>

I guess I just wanted to say don't get hung up with labels.  Styles are only useful as a starting place descriptor; they aren't the end all, be all.  It is very possible to find Shotokan dojo that don't compete in tournaments at all, that have more of a focus on self-defense and body fitness.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 30, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> There is no universal 'best'.  Some styles might resonate better with a particular individual due to body type and personal affinity for the techniques, but that only makes the style best for them only, not for everyone else too.
> 
> If your friend doesn't think Shotokan is karate, he likely doesn't have a great opinion about Kyokushin or even taekwondo either.  <shrugs>
> 
> I guess I just wanted to say don't get hung up with labels.  Styles are only useful as a starting place descriptor; they aren't the end all, be all.  It is very possible to find Shotokan dojo that don't compete in tournaments at all, that have more of a focus on self-defense and body fitness.



I also think a lot is down to the instructor and the practitioner.  I've seen some truly talented and dangerous individuals who were expert in a different style.  I've also seen some youtube crap from people who appeared to think they were experts in their style (mine and others).  I would frankly not want to mess with a person who was a true master of their art, regardless of TKD, TSD, Okinawan-style karate, etc, etc.  There are some very tough people out there, and these styles work when properly applied by people who have put their time into it.


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## Nomad (Sep 30, 2010)

The extremely low, deep stances often associated with karate are a Japanese artifact (through Shotokan); stances is Okinawan karate tend to be a bit more upright and natural.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 30, 2010)

There are many differences in traditional Okinawan Karate to the more modern Japanese style karate.  I will mention some again that have already been mentioned but hope I can add to the list also.  True karate born on Okinawa named Toudi originally menaing "China hand".  Di is the same as te only in Uchinaguchi.  The kanji for Tou or To "&#21776;" refers to the tang dynasty. Te or Di "&#25163;" refers to the hand. The japanese were not particularly fond of anything of chinese origin which was why the name for karate was changed from Toudi to what we know today as Karate "&#31354;&#25163;".

Some of the differences:
1. Okinawa karate is more circular even in the Shuri te styles than that of mainland japan

2. The punching is done differently than Shotokan and similar styles and not just what you can see but the mechanics of the technique.

3. The kicks and blocks are different also.  The okinawan's actually used their big toe as the striking surface rather than the ball of the foot.  The original side kick of okinawan karate was different also.

4. Stances in Okinawan karate tend to be much more upright also even in Goju Ryu which as more lower stances then most Okinawan styles they use a lot of upright rooted stances.

5. Okinawan karate is a bit more in your face approach, more up close and personal than the more modern styles.

6. Also when I was in Okinawa I noticed they were less concerned with style then the mainland mindset and much more concerned on karate as a whole.

Just a my .02 worth!!


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## Sojobo (Oct 7, 2010)

Manny said:


> _Okinawan Kara Te _is a straight line action with strong stances and Kobudo.


 
Karate and Kobudo are two different things.

Sojobo


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## Cirdan (Oct 8, 2010)

Sojobo said:


> Karate and Kobudo are two different things.
> 
> Sojobo


 
Yet they can be the same, ever tried doing a Pinan kata with weapons?
There are plenty of karate dojos where weapons are part of the curriculum.

It could be argued karate and ju jutsu are two different things too but we wadokas would know better.


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## harlan (Oct 8, 2010)

You bring up an interesting question.

If weapons are tacked onto an empty hand kata...does it qualify as 'kobudo'?



Sojobo said:


> Karate and Kobudo are two different things.
> 
> Sojobo


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## TimoS (Oct 8, 2010)

harlan said:


> If weapons are tacked onto an empty hand kata...does it qualify as 'kobudo'?


Not really, IMO. You just get karate done with kobudo tools. The actual kobudo takes use of the weapons' own qualities. The karate kata were designed to be done empty-handed and more often than not, from a very short distance.
I have done kobudo, which really was just karate with weapons and I am doing real kobudo. In my opinion, there's no comparison.


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## Cirdan (Oct 8, 2010)

I suppose it depends on how you define kobudo. Many just use the term meaning training in (Okinawan) weapons. I guess strictly speaking that is both an oversimplification and incorrect.

Anyway weapons are not taught where I study karate. I just have some very limited training in Nihon Kobudo and Kali, and noticed a lot of similar movements in the karate Kata. I figure guys like Matsumura could have put some of that in there too or it could just be similar principles at work. Just an obserbvation, not a theory.


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## dancingalone (Oct 8, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Anyway weapons are not taught where I study karate. I just have some very limited training in Nihon Kobudo and Kali, and noticed a lot of similar movements in the karate Kata. I figure guys like Matsumura could have put some of that in there too or it could just be similar principles at work. Just an obserbvation, not a theory.



I don't pretend to know Matsumora's thoughts, but I will note that there are obvious differences in stances between empty hand karate and kobudo.  Generally, it has to do with the length of the weapon to obtain proper distancing for usage along with maintaining a stable platform from which to attack or defend.  So for example, you might hold a longer stance with a bo.

You can train empty hand forms with weapons added, and I often do, but it is correct that a fuller experience can be had by practicing an actual kobudo kata since obviously it is designed expressively for kobudo practice.


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## TimoS (Oct 8, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> I figure guys like Matsumura could have put some of that in there too or it could just be similar principles at work. Just an obserbvation, not a theory.


The way I see it and actually the way it's been explained to me is that the reasons why you can use weapons with karate kata is mainly physiological: there are, after all, only so many ways which you can move your hands and feet, so there are bound to be some similarities.


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## TimoS (Oct 8, 2010)

Manny said:


> Would you explain me the diferences beetwen Japanese Karate and Okinawan Karate?


Nice co-incidence, I have lately been arguing about this very subject on a different forum 
To me, the main difference is that in okinawan karate kata is the centerpiece of everything. The basics stem from it, as do the (formal) drills you do with a partner, e.g. ippon kumite. Then from these you progress to more free sparring, still using the tools you've learned in kata. That is why I've learned to talk only about one K, kata, as opposed to the three K's: kihon, kata, kumite.
In many japanese karate, though not all, the connection between the kihon, kata and kumite has been broken. By this I mean that the karateka from these systems just do the kata without knowing what they're doing, i.e. they don't know the contents of the kata. Then their partner drills might not have any connection to the kata or if there is, it isn't explained. 
Just by looking at karateka doing their training you might not see it if they are doing okinawan or japanese karate, but in my opinion, the okinawan karateka should be able to tell you that from which kata their drills are from.
This is, of course, only a generalization and there are exceptions on both "sides". In some japanese styles the karateka know fully well what they're doing when they're doing kata and from what I've been told, there are probably some okinawan styles in which the people haven't got the faintest idea what they are doing in kata (in which case it's just an ugly dance )


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## Sojobo (Oct 8, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Yet they can be the same, ever tried doing a Pinan kata with weapons?





Cirdan said:


> There are plenty of karate dojos where weapons are part of the curriculum.
> 
> It could be argued karate and ju jutsu are two different things too but we wadokas would know better.


 
Hello,

My knowledge of (Okinawan) Kobudo and Okinawan Karate is limited to what I have read and researched.

As I understand it however, it is generally accepted that Okinawan Kobudo Kata are much younger than Okinawan Karate kata.

There may be parallels that can be drawn (and indeed may be of benefit in terms of training), but their origins are different as I understand it. They did not evolve together as one. 

Trying to blend Kobudo with Karate's Pinan Kata?, well...I struggle to grasp that if I am being honest. Although there may maybe a commonality, in terms of movement shape - there are bigger things to consider - not least of which "Ma-ai", or the altered fighting distance with weapons. [edit] Pinan Kata exist for the reason they were created (and utilised by the various schools that have them) imo - and that was to start (at least) to engender the best technique and movement for weaponless, or at least close quarter combat/self defense. 

Sojobo

ps - the connection between Wado-ryu Karate and Japanese Jujutsu is a complicated one to understand.


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## TimoS (Oct 8, 2010)

Sojobo said:


> As I understand it however, it is generally accepted that Okinawan Kobudo Kata are much younger than Okinawan Karate kata.


I think it really depends on the kata. Some kobudo kata are probably quite old, some are quite new. As I've understood it, e.g. nunchaku kata are all new, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bo kata are old.
Kobudo as a separate system is much more recent, even more recent than the creation of karate ryu, but I think the actual kata were preserved by masters. Taira Shinken and Matayoshi Shinpo (or was it Shinko, I always confuse the father and the son) were the two (main) persons responsible for collecting all the various weapons kata under their systems from different masters. They also created new kata, but as I understand it, the core of their teachings was gathered from different masters. One master would know e.g. a bo kata, another might know a sai kata and so on.


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## TimoS (Oct 8, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Yep, agreed with Bill there. From memory, the name change was in the early 1900's (the 20's or 30's, I think....).


The "official" name change was decided on in the 1936 meeting of karate masters, such as Kyan, Miyagi, Motobu and Chibana. You can read about it from here: http://seinenkai.com/articles/sanzinsoo/1936.html
However, the kanji for "empty hand" were already used in 1905, in a book by Hanashiro Chomo called "karate shoshu hen". This, to me, indicates that the meaning was already quite widely used even back then.


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## Sojobo (Oct 9, 2010)

TimoS said:


> I think it really depends on the kata. Some kobudo kata are probably quite old, some are quite new. As I've understood it, e.g. nunchaku kata are all new, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of the bo kata are old.





TimoS said:


> Kobudo as a separate system is much more recent, even more recent than the creation of karate ryu, but I think the actual kata were preserved by masters. Taira Shinken and Matayoshi Shinpo (or was it Shinko, I always confuse the father and the son) were the two (main) persons responsible for collecting all the various weapons kata under their systems from different masters. They also created new kata, but as I understand it, the core of their teachings was gathered from different masters. One master would know e.g. a bo kata, another might know a sai kata and so on.


 
Hello,

Apologies for going a little off thread, but Okinawan Kobudo and its relationship to/with Okinawan Karate is subject that is of interest to me.

I have always been of the understanding that Karate developed ostensibly as an unarmed fighting / self defense system (its origins being in Okinawan grappling with Chinese ma influences). It makes sense of course that where you can fight with weapons your chances are increased, but predominantly Karate was/is pretty separate from Kobudo as a discipline.

It is interesting to compare this to the Japanese Koryu Bujutsu model.

In so called "Sogo Bujutsu" or comprehensive systems, weapon work (of various types) are taught alongside unarmed techniques (jujutsu), but it goes a little deeper than this, in that there was a common thread in terms of core principles that ran through the various facets of the school's curriculum - be that Kenjutsu or Jujutsu.

As well as Wado ryu Karate, I train with a group that studies Sosuishi ryu (Koryu Bujutsu). Its full name; "Sosuishi ryu Kumi Uchi Koshi no Mawari" is a reflection of this synthesis of weapon work along with jujutsu/grappling. "Kumi Uchi" meaning armed and unarmed grappling/jujutsu and "Koshi no Mawari" meaning "around the hip" (referring to the practice of weapons that are stored about your waist). The Kata trained in the Koryu (be that Iai, Kenjutsu or Jujutsu), are all home grown as I understand it, ie not bought in from other &#8220;specialist&#8221; Ryu.

In this case there is definitely a connection between the weapons trained and the hand to hand / grappling stuff - I am not sure this exists so much in the Okinawan Karate/Kobudo relationship, but I am open to being convinced.

Sojobo


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## TimoS (Oct 9, 2010)

Sojobo said:


> In this case there is definitely a connection between the weapons trained and the hand to hand / grappling stuff - I am not sure this exists so much in the Okinawan Karate/Kobudo relationship, but I am open to being convinced.


Yes, I'm aware of the Sogo bujutsu-concept in japanese koryu arts and in my opinion the relationship between karate and ryukyu kobudo isn't so strong. Like I said, Ryukyu kobudo is a much later amalgamation than karate. It used to be that the old masters knew maybe one or two weapons kata and _maybe_ there was a stronger "sogo bujutsu"-like connection between their empty hand material and their weapons material, but that really is just a guess, because at least I haven't got the foggiest idea what kind of karate e.g. Tokumine had. He most likely had some, but I don't think he passed those skills onto anyone. We know he passed on some of his weapons skills.


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