# Training for knife defence: life blades or rubber knives?



## kickcatcher (Mar 14, 2006)

Which do you feel is better for training edged weapons defences?


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## terryl965 (Mar 14, 2006)

Rubber is more pactical, a real knife is a weapon not a toy to be played with by all.
Terry


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## Lisa (Mar 14, 2006)

There have been a few threads of recent discussion touching on this question in the knife arts section here and here.  Check them out.   Hope they help.


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## Blindside (Mar 14, 2006)

Aluminum or dull metal trainers, starting with a live blade is just dumb.  

Lamont


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## Flatlander (Mar 14, 2006)

Agreed.  A harder rubber substance would be preferable to aluminium (been cut with one of those before), live blade training is dangerous and reckless.


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## Andrew Green (Mar 14, 2006)

Something solid that won't cut is the best bet.  (If it stings a little thats ok though  )

Otherwise you can't spar, and if you can't spar where's the fun in that?


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## Jimi (Mar 14, 2006)

Many FMA practitioners use wooden daggers and recently (10 years or so) also use alum. daggers for training (note these alum. daggers are thick and dull), but not always for sparring. For disarm drills to strip the knife from the hand (not just a hit to the weapon hand) they like the solid wood/alum. daggers because they are stiff, similar to a real blade. Some disarm drills won't work well with a rubber knife because it will fold or flex when attempting a strip. When sparring they seem to like rubber knives or foam padded knives for safety. (A thrust with something as solid as wood/alum. can hit quite hard) I guess it depends on what you want to work on as to which type of practice dagger you may want. Some also like the daggers with an ink carrying edge to show where the blade has cut.Those who work with live blades near all out saying it is the reality of the knife are risking quite a lot. I understand the theory of realising the true danger of a blade in self defense, but too many fools trying to be hardcare or badass are proud of foolish scars. I say go on if you are that fool, hell ain't half full.


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## beau_safken (Mar 14, 2006)

One time the founder of my system of Silat was doing a seminar.  A student from another school was asked to give him a blade to demo a technique.  He gave him a REAL knife..  The founder looked at the guy, dropped him on the ground and proceeded to take a little piece of hair off with the blade.  He said "HOW DARE YOU GIVE ME A LIVE BLADE!!  If you wanted to train in live blades you better get ready to die because thats what happens when you play with real knives.  Think about that next time someone asks you for a blade during a seminar."

Uncle was pretty pissed after that and decided we didnt need knife work anymore..went straight to a good hour and a half of kun tao training instead.  Har gar for 1 hour and then 2...then 3...  We all didnt like that guy after that particular incident.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2006)

I'm in agreement.  I'd say go with the hard rubber, wood, or metal trainer.  Training with a live blade is something that needs to be done at a slow pace.  I will admit though, that it will give you a much different feel for your disarms. 

Now, if we want to start talking about pressure testing, we could simply use a trainer with lipstick or something similar, along the edges.  Chalk is another option.  At least with this, it'll be more apparent to any 'cuts' that we get during the training.

Mike


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## still learning (Mar 14, 2006)

Hello, When training with lower rank students rubber knives should be use.

As one progress...maybe on to wooden knives. To use real knives is asking for trouble, it is easy to make a mistake and get someone kill? NOT worth the risks.

Most people only have one life? It would be sad to lose one of your students because you wanted the knife defense to be more real. If you have alot of students...maybe it could be OK? ....just joking.....Aloha


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## bshovan (Mar 14, 2006)

Great advice, training with a live blade should be included but at a safe level. Far to often we see many so-called knife disarming techniques with dull blades by the ill-informed that in actuality would lead to serious injury if indeed the blade was live. Practice slow with live blades to get the " appreciation and knowledge " of what a real live blade can do.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 14, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Agreed. A harder rubber substance would be preferable to aluminium (been cut with one of those before), live blade training is dangerous and reckless.


 

I prefer Aluminum, but the ones I use are from the Arnolds. Joe and Jason Arnold out of Ontario Ca. Tim Hartman is the US rep for Jason, and some few items from Joe. Joe does more real items for people at a much higher cost. 

All the trainers from these guys have the edges rounded off, and are tested on Jason's neck to make sure there are no edges to scratch or cut. 

I like the metal look and the metal feel and the stiffness when contact is made, as well as the fell in your hand.


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## Marvin (Mar 14, 2006)

Plastic knives with a groove for chalk or a magic marker is what I generally use. I have a few alum. trainers as well


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## kickcatcher (Mar 15, 2006)

I use rubber knives mostly because they don't hurt when you get cut - which is a good and bad thing really. And they are cheap. 

I like the idea of using marker pens for good feedback - I've never thought of chalk. That might be easier to wash out afterwards lol. 

I also have a Stanly Knife ("Box cutter") with a cardboard blade (coloured in silver, lol). 

One problem with training knives in general I feel is that they all tend to be quite big. Dissarms and entraining should not be too reliant on the size of the knife IMO. 

Anyway, I think live blade work is inherently unrealistic.


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## Adept (Mar 15, 2006)

I agree with Kickcatcher on this one.

Not only is training with a live blade just _asking_ to get cut, it's also counter productive. The person facing you in the dojo isn't going to attempt an attack that comes anywhere _near_ approximating reality. They have a life blade in their hands, and will be taking care not to cut you.

Someone with a dulled wooden or aluminium blade doesn't care as much. The 'good' partners know that a little bit of pain re-inforces a lesson. They will attack you in such a way that, if they were wielding a real knife, you will be injured or killed.

Thus, practicing against safe training knives will result not only in safer training, but more comprehensive and grounded training as well.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 15, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Which do you feel is better for training edged weapons defences?



Hmmm.... I don't think you have to shoot yourself in the head to realize that it will kill you...  I would say a rubber knife will be sufficient.


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## Drac (Mar 15, 2006)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Aluminum or dull metal trainers, starting with a live blade is just dumb.
> 
> Lamont


 
I agree..The Aluminum trainers look and feel like a real knife..


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## Blindside (Mar 15, 2006)




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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 16, 2006)

partner training with a live blade is a recipe for unpleasantness.

that said, solo training with a live blade (forms, technique, what have you) is a great way to keep your focus...um...sharp.

you can also buy or convert a regular knife to a dulled blade.  these are great training tools because you're not going to get cut but they hurt like all fire when you get dinged.  keeps you honest.


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## Hand Sword (Mar 16, 2006)

For training, I say use practice weapons.  Use real knives when in actual combat (if necessary!).


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## still learning (Mar 16, 2006)

Hello, Someone printed something about making it more real (knife fighting).  Is to  use  fake blood on the knife edge to attack the defender, so when contact is made?  It will look real!  

Anyone knows where you can get Fake blood?  ............Aloha


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## Jimi (Mar 16, 2006)

Fake blood? magic shop. Real blood? Pig farm or butcher. HAHAHA! A live blade is for cutting my steak. Hope you all take this in the fun it was intended. PEACE


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## Blindside (Mar 16, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Someone printed something about making it more real (knife fighting). Is to use fake blood on the knife edge to attack the defender, so when contact is made? It will look real!
> 
> Anyone knows where you can get Fake blood? ............Aloha


 
Just use cheap lipstick.

'Course that gets you in trouble with the wife....

Lamont


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## SFC JeffJ (Mar 16, 2006)

I use live blades a lot in SOLO training.  I take a set of old coveralls, stuff them with straw, carpetscraps, and whatever else is around, do a little rough stiching, hang it up in my garage, and go to town.  Fix it up with duct tape till it's time for a new one.  I would never consider doing any training with a real knife with another person.  Sounds like a recipie for disaster and hearbreak, and possible prison time.


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