# Iron Workers and Watchmakers



## Kenpodoc (Dec 10, 2003)

I remember Mr. LaBounty discussing Iron workers and Watchmakers.  I can't remember if he felt that there were any other styles of practice in Kenpo and can't find my notes.  Can anyone expand on the idea of the watchmaker and ironworker and did this idea start with Mr. LaBounty or did it originate elsewhere.

I'd like to add that the two opportunities I've had to work with Mr. LaBounty were great and highly recommend that everyone get a chance to meet him.


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## Zeke (Dec 10, 2003)

I think I can remember Mr. LaBounty talking about that concept at one of the AKKS-camps in Vegas some years ago so it might have originated with him(?). But I do know that "Goldendragon" has a page on his website - http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/topkenpoinstructors.htm - where he does rate some of the seniorinstructors on the basis of :Iron Worker = Strong in Physical Training 
Watch Maker = Strong in Technical Training 
Philosopher = Strong in Philosophical Training 
Business = Strong in Business Training 
And if I'm not mistaken I believe Mr. LaBounty did at least mention the first 3.
Hope this helps just a little.
Take care
Zeke


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## Ceicei (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zeke _
> *I think I can remember Mr. LaBounty talking about that concept at one of the AKKS-camps in Vegas some years ago so it might have originated with him(?). But I do know that "Goldendragon" has a page on his website - http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/topkenpoinstructors.htm - where he does rate some of the seniorinstructors on the basis of :Iron Worker = Strong in Physical Training
> Watch Maker = Strong in Technical Training
> Philosopher = Strong in Philosophical Training
> ...



Can these analogies be expanded to not-so-senior instructors?

- Ceicei


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## Kenpodoc (Dec 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *Can these analogies be expanded to not-so-senior instructors?
> 
> - Ceicei *



I believe Mr. LaBounty states that they apply to everyone.

Jeff


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## Michael Billings (Dec 10, 2003)

You might want to browse Sigung LaBounty's site at *The Sigung.com*.

Tiger = Ironworker
Dragon = Watchmaker

This is a very simplistic response, but starts you thinking.  There should be both in our training, sometimes one of more, or the other, at different times in our martial arts careers.  If  we ignore one, then that is a true "hole" in our Kenpo.

In the first part of my career, I was definitly in the Ironworker catagory, for 7 years we did low training horse stances, survival drills, guts training, our training was over 2 hours per class, and all of it physical.  The few classes that were theoretical ... well, there just weren't any, but I am from the LaBounty lineage originally.  

The second half of my career, I was fortunate enough to train under or with  students that were active with Mr. Parker in the late 1980's.  They introduced me to the Principles, Concepts and Theories as we know them in EPAK.  Knowing the why's and having the knowledge base shared with me helped me immensely and I give full credit to those I trained under, both as an Ironworker and a Watchmaker.  

Think about the Orange Belt saying:



> *
> 
> Condition and guts take over where knowledge and skill end.
> 
> *



It would not have been included at this level had it not been important for the beginning students to know that training the body is a priority.  At this level it is easier to forget techniques, or correct targets.  What you don't forget is to keep on fighting, even with just elbows and knees, until they fall down.  It is about survival, not winning per se.

You have to have been in a physical, mental, and emotional place where you know you can push past your limits and still "turn it on" if needed.  This is an extreme example of what I see as two continuums, running parallel, side by side, sometimes you are more advanced in one than the other, but the goal is to train both sides.  

NOTE: It is a lot easier to read it and talk it on the internet, than to lay it down on the mat.  You have to Walk the Walk if you are going to Talk the Talk ... or you have to have done it sometime in your career.  As we get older, we appreciate the Ironworkers we used to be, while the Watchmaker can continue to grow.  Hopefully we train others to be Ironworkers first, and Watchmakers second.  It is easier for me to train you to punch and kick, throw elbows and knees, than it is to explain it.  Of course I do both, but the body usually learns first.

Oss,
-Michael


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _*
> Can anyone expand on the idea of the watchmaker and ironworker and did this idea start with Mr. LaBounty or did it originate elsewhere.
> 
> I'd like to add that I've worked with Mr. LaBounty and highly recommend him.
> *



As Mr. Billings stated, the "Iron Worker" is the more "Physical" side of the Art.  Which is what is needed in the beginning more than the mental aspects.  Sure, mental is important but without the ability [physical coordination] to understand or apply principles is virtually worthless.

In the beginning with Ed Parker, the students of that early time had few principles to deal with, thus the early training was rough, tough, and very physical (ask any old timer of the '60's).  

As Ed Parker evolved, so did his Art.  Explanations and updates with the "whys" started to infiltrate the training halls and studios {creating the numerous different manual versions} ... thus the birth of "The Watchmaker" or the "Intellectual" side of the Art.

These two terms were formulated by Steve LaBounty and have been used for decades by his students.

I also concur with the KenpoDoc....... He is one of the most fascinating Kenpoists out there and is a Class Act bar none {even though he has a persnickety side to him }.

:asian:


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