# I'll Just Run!!!



## MJS (Nov 9, 2009)

I'll just run.

I'll just kick him in the nuts and run.

There is no defense for that, so I'll just run.


The above are the typical comments that some people say, usually when the discussion is focused on dealing with multiple opponents or weapons, specifically a knife. And yes, of course, if you can get the hell out of an area, why not do so? I mean, if the situation allows, I'd do my best to get away as well. However, I'm also prepared to deal with those situations, should escape not be an option.

Now, when I say 'should it not be an option' I'm talking about when you're with someone who isn't capable of running or its not possible to leave. Of course, I'm no track star, so there is nothing to say that if I did try to run, that the guy wouldn't chase after me anyways. So now, after trying to run, now I lose steam, the badguy catches up to me, and now I have to fight with him anyways.

So, this brings up the question....why do people put so much faith into running? Seems to me that running is the typical answer that everyone says, but always fails to mention plan b. It also tells me that some people that advocate this so much, may not have the skills to deal with the situation they're facing, so thats the best they can do....I'll just run.


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## still learning (Nov 9, 2009)

Hello, NO two situtions will be the same or scenarios'...

One should always think about escaping if one can...if you have a person who cannot "run" ...than one has to think about fighting back...(after you tried talking your way out)..

You will "win" some and "lose" some....there is NO guarantees' in life...

...this one hopes...Chuck Norris  and John (Rambo) ..is just around cornor (eye witness)...

Aloha,


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## Ken Morgan (Nov 9, 2009)

You've got only two options, fight or flight. 

In a fight, you will be hurt in some way, shape or form. If you choose to run, you have a chance of coming out of it with no physical harm. People are afraid of being hurt.

To me, my reaction will all depend on the situation I face. I may run, or I may stand my ground, I won't know until it happens.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 9, 2009)

Aye, it's a balancing act which 'tactic' to pick, the fulcrum being where, when and how the situation goes to hell in a hand cart.

Standing and fighting in a clearly losing situation is not smart ... but neither is acting like prey and fleeing too early when there is a chance to resolve a confrontation with noone ending up in ER.


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## theletch1 (Nov 9, 2009)

Actually, you have three options... fight, flight... or freeze.  Grasping to the idea that one could just kick to the groin and run as a complete self defense style in and of itself will quite often result in the "freeze" instead of the fight or flight.  Training in other forms of self defense can at the very least engrain some reaction into your brain that will eliminate the freeze aspect of self defense. I've heard the same thing from many folks that come to the women's self defense seminars that I give now and then.  Part of the problem there is that many folks simply don't believe that they are capable of defending themselves so the "kick them and run" defense sound like all they have available.  Generally, though, after a seminar I see a few lights come on.


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## morph4me (Nov 9, 2009)

I'm old and fat and have excercise induced asthma, running is not really an option for me, unless it's a very short run. I'm sure I'm not alone. Running is plan "B" for me, plan "A" is making sure I won't be chased.


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## sfs982000 (Nov 9, 2009)

The situation definitely dictates the reaction, a person could be hit with the exact same scenario mulitple times and their reaction wouldn't be the same for each one.


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## jks9199 (Nov 9, 2009)

Why do people put a lot of stock in a plan to run away?

'Cause running is easy and doesn't take special training which might lead them to confront things about themselves they might not like.  

It's the same way that many people who hold concealed weapons permits say "I'll just shoot my way out!"  They ignore the possibility that they won't be able to draw fast enough, or won't have a safe backdrop to shoot into (do you really want to wing a few rounds in the direction of the elementary school playground?), or aren't confronted with a lethal force situation...


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 9, 2009)

If at all possible run. if not possible there are other options.

And for the record kicking someone in the nuts is no guarantee, but then neither is running...or fighting.


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## stickarts (Nov 9, 2009)

In the majority of cases that I have heard discussion of running as an option, the intent was to point out that it is a good option when possible if you can avoid a confrontation. Sometimes people get so locked into the mind set of the fight aspect that they forget that perhaps you can get away without a scuffle and you need not feel embarassed by avoiding a fight. 
It comes down to the idea of fighting only as a last resort.
No, running may not always be possible, or even be the best option, but it should be on the table as a potential option along with all the others.


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## still learning (Nov 10, 2009)

Hello,  Avoiding and escaping means living to see tomorrow...

If have to run and can out run the attackers...tomorrow will come..

If running and getting caught? ...maybe 60/40 percent chance either way...maybe see tomorrow-even if only one eye?

...facing muliple attackers? ...90 percent chance serious injuries...10 percent drying from injuries...will NOT see tomorrow maybe? 

life can be short or long....tomorrow may or may not come? Enjoy the moments of NO problems..learn what happness is...

"Depends" ....Nike or  high heels? ...one runs faster...and one looks more pretty!

  ....nice to see a rising sun, everyday...even if we have to chase it! ..

Aloha,  ..more driving than running today...car is faster?


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## Chris Parker (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi,

I was wanting to add a few things, but reading through most of what I wanted to say has already been addressed...  oh, well, can't be first all the time. But to recap what I would have said:

The idea of "fight or flight" is not entirely correct. As theletch1 said, the third aspect is "freeze". And one aspect is as said, a number of martial artists train themselves to go into "freeze-frame" mode after a technique, after all, in the dojo when the technique is done and finished, you stand there. And in a movie, the star always holds a pose for the camera after delivering their blow. So it is not entirely uncommon to encounter it that way for a martial artist.

However, "freeze" is also a common responce for non-trained persons, before any technique or movement is made, and held as they are attacked. The reason is simply a survival mechanism (as are the fight and flight responces). Essentially the psychological concept is to not appear as a target, or even to "disappear" to a degree... think the defence against the T-Rex in Jurassic Park.

Basically the responces are as follows: 
Fight - I will fight for survival or supremacy against the threat.
Flight - I will escape from the threat by gaining as much distance as I can.
Freeze - I will avoid the threat by not being seen as a threat myself.

So trained or untrained, any of these responces could come out. In fact, a majority of training is in order to avoid the last responce (freeze), and allow you to choose which of the others you will use at the time, based on various factors (by the way, in the main the responce you use will be decided by factors other than conscious choice for most people. It will be decided by factors such as relative threat level, distance from the threat, and past experience, meaning that flight usually kicks in after a certain distance, with fight and freeze happening if the threat is closer, regardless of what your conscious mind "thinks" you would do).

However, to let MJS know about alternatives, this is how we deal with things.

Within Japanese martial arts this is dealt with by utilising the concepts of Mushin and Zanshin, I will discuss Zanshin here, as it is relevant. Zanshin is often translated as "awareness", and is expressed after a technique is performed. In essence, the practitioner strives to stay "aware" of their surroundings after a kata/waza, keeping the opponent in view, but also being aware of everything around them. Should the opponent start to get up before the practitioner breaks their Zanshin, they are considered to have not been "finished", and the practitioner should respond as appropriate. This teaches you to avoid the "freeze" aspect, but due to distance, is geared around the "fight" responce. 

Certain schools (such as Togakure Ryu) also teach "flight" as part of their classical teachings, and the Zanshin aspect is used here as well.

In our "street", or modern techniques, we not only remind students to keep moving after the technique, we get them to rehearse it. Again, this is to avoid the "freeze" aspect, and serves a very similar purpose to Zanshin in this regard. Of course, in things such as knife or group defence, we do include the classic tactic of "Run away!!!". However, we do include the Plan B in this as well, which is actually just "go back to Plan A".

If you are fleeing from a knifeman, for example distance is your saviour. And the adrenaline surge you will experience will help that no end, making you faster, stronger, and feel less pain. Unfortunately, however, the adrenaline surge your attacker has experienced will also help him be faster, stronger, and feel less pain. So there is the distinct possibility that they will catch up. So we teach our students (through drills) to be prepared for them to catch up, and before they do, the students should turn to face the attacker, and continue with another of the defences we have shown them, then escape again. Same goes for groups, do your technique and escape, but be ready to continue if they catch up.


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## seasoned (Nov 10, 2009)

By the time we are faced with a dangerous situation, our training will take over. What we put into our mental computer will come out in dire times. In a fast moving confrontation, there is no time to think, and reactions will be automatic. Nothing beats conditioned reflexes, thinking is too slow.


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## Joab (Nov 10, 2009)

There are a lot of good reasons to run if you can, but most importantly, it is often required by the law to flee if possible. Not fleeing when you can can get you in a lot of trouble with criminal and civil charges that go on and on. If you do flee and run out of breath or the attacker catches up to you and than defend yourself, it will look better in court. I'm not a lawyer, but that is my interpretation of various self defense laws I have read.


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## girlbug2 (Nov 10, 2009)

Running is what I'd do if I'm aware of the situation enough to avoid being cornered in the first place, and assuming I am not with somebody who can't run with me. Of course, that leaves plenty of room for scenarios that don't fit the running option, because that's how it is in life. Thus, I train.


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## seasoned (Nov 10, 2009)

Joab said:


> There are a lot of good reasons to run if you can, but most importantly, it is often required by the law to flee if possible. Not fleeing when you can can get you in a lot of trouble with criminal and civil charges that go on and on. If you do flee and run out of breath or the attacker catches up to you and than defend yourself, it will look better in court. I'm not a lawyer, but that is my interpretation of various self defense laws I have read.


Fleeing can take many forms. physically or mentally. Physically by running, if you are able, mentally by taking the submissive roll, in the situation. A submissive roll can sometimes either embolden or discourage an attack. If it discourages an attack, mark it up as a good day, and no one gets hurt. If it encourages the attack, and you have done and said everything in your power to defuse it, do what you can do to defend yourself. You will hopefully have your day in court.


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## harlan (Nov 10, 2009)

Survive. That is the first imperative.

Escape usually being the best option, and done with the least amount of effort or sacrifice. Run if you can, but expect to have to fight to get the opportunity to do so.

In reality, I've found that in my normal run-of-the-mill life, as an average female, that running has rarely been an option. Only a few times while younger, and in an open space. But being either pregnant, or accompanied by younger siblings/children, aging with bad knees, or simply trapped in a bad situation, running wasn't an option.


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## theletch1 (Nov 10, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Fleeing can take many forms. physically or mentally. Physically by running, if you are able, mentally by taking the submissive roll, in the situation. A submissive roll can sometimes either embolden or discourage an attack. If it discourages an attack, mark it up as a good day, and no one gets hurt. If it encourages the attack, and you have done and said everything in your power to defuse it, do what you can do to defend yourself. You will hopefully have your day in court.


 Agreed.  The mindset of the I'll just run crowd too often is that they aren't taking into account that many times there's no where to run.  Again, it's a one dimensional approach to a multi-dimensional problem.  We are, for the most part, preaching to the choir as it were with this discussion.  Anyone have any good, solid points to hand to the group in question to dissuade them from the idea that no other art than nike-do is needed for self defense?


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## Draven (Nov 10, 2009)

MJS said:


> I'll just run.
> 
> I'll just kick him in the nuts and run.
> 
> ...


 
Well running is an excuse used by a lot of people to cover what they don't train for, I hear it the most from MMA guys & arm chair martial artists. Thing is sure you can run and many times running is what "they" want to happen. When I was 15 me and some friends where at a concert and three guys started walking toward us in a "threatening manner" so we changed direction found four more guys and we went a third direction and got pinned in an alley with 7 guys on one end and 4 on the other end.

I gave them my shoes & my wallet, looking back on it if we were smart we'd have moved toward the first three if it became a fight there where wittnesses may be the police would have been called in. Instead we let them herd us into an alley away from wittnesses and help.



theletch1 said:


> Actually, you have three options... fight, flight... or freeze. Grasping to the idea that one could just kick to the groin and run as a complete self defense style in and of itself will quite often result in the "freeze" instead of the fight or flight. Training in other forms of self defense can at the very least engrain some reaction into your brain that will eliminate the freeze aspect of self defense.


 
Actually my psychology text book says nothing of freezing, it list fight or flight but also submission & posturing. I guess freezing could be considered an involuntary form of submission & I know that there is a debate by some psychologist & sociologists to have freeze added making it five. 

Also many times training is what causes the freeze effect according to many RBSD instructors. I had seen a video where a black belt in Shotokan I think it was, was told not to defend himself until he was physically touched. The uke dressed as a street punk got in the Karateka's face and began yelling obsentities and threats and the karateka froze when punched in the face.

So I have a question(s);
Have they updated the interactions to interspecies conflict or is this a personally/institutionally/organizationally accepted principle?
Why assume its lack of training & not lack of experience? 

What I mean is this I had plenty of training, I had a wealth of training & when it came time to pull a trigger in Iraq I hesitated my first time. My training prepared me but I lacked experiences that meant my training was going to be effective. So my little voice of doubt became a block that caused me to hesitate, I snapped out of it real quick after the first shot.



theletch1 said:


> Agreed. The mindset of the I'll just run crowd too often is that they aren't taking into account that many times there's no where to run. Again, it's a one dimensional approach to a multi-dimensional problem. We are, for the most part, preaching to the choir as it were with this discussion. Anyone have any good, solid points to hand to the group in question to dissuade them from the idea that no other art than nike-do is needed for self defense?


 
Sure ask the question, ever been literally shot/stabbed in the back? How fast are you compared from some skinny street kid who makes it a career from running from the police? By the way, thats whats chasing down the alley to his friends?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 10, 2009)

Monty Python said it best

King Arthur: Run away!

Sir Robin: Would it help to confuse it if we run away more?

The Black Knight: Oh, oh, I see! Running away, eh? You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what's coming to you! I'll bite your legs off!


I could no longer resist, sorry.


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## theletch1 (Nov 10, 2009)

Draven said:


> Well running is an excuse used by a lot of people to cover what they don't train for, I hear it the most from MMA guys & arm chair martial artists. Thing is sure you can run and many times running is what "they" want to happen. When I was 15 me and some friends where at a concert and three guys started walking toward us in a "threatening manner" so we changed direction found four more guys and we went a third direction and got pinned in an alley with 7 guys on one end and 4 on the other end.
> 
> I gave them my shoes & my wallet, looking back on it if we were smart we'd have moved toward the first three if it became a fight there where wittnesses may be the police would have been called in. Instead we let them herd us into an alley away from wittnesses and help.
> 
> ...


 I've just enrolled in a mental health degree curriculum myself so I feel for you on reading the psychology books.  The freeze should, absolutely, be added as one of the list and make it five.

You said it well in the first line of your post... it covers something they haven't trained for.  They haven't really trained for the psychology of the act.  There have been training session after training session to deal with the physical aspect of the altercation but the psychological aspect of balancing your training to harm/maim/kill another human being with the social training that you've had drilled into you for the majority of your life (don't hit, don't be mean etc) is one that is at best difficult to train.  Marine Corps recruit training was designed to create the emotional stress of being in a combat situation as closely as possible without actually being shot at.  There's still that little bit of difference between the training and the real thing that cause many folks to at least pause for a split second when they find themselves under fire for the first time.

Good post, BTW, the psychological side of combat is what I'm specializing in in school so that I can help counsel my fellow vets who are suffering PTSD symptoms.


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## MJS (Nov 10, 2009)

WOW, lots of great replies!  Sorry I didn't get back here sooner, but now that I have a bit more time, let me explain my point of view in more depth.

As I said, I'm all for trying to verbally talk my way out of something.  Done it many times.  I'm also all for running away or trying to leave the area of the bad situation.  However, as I've pointed out, there're times when that isn't an option.  Ex: I'm opening my car door, and someone comes up from behind and shoves a blade against my back.  In that case, no, I'm not able to run, as easily as if I saw the guy coming at me from 20ft away.  And frankly, not to open that can of worms again, but personally, I am not too keen on handing over my personal belongings to some scum bag because he demands them.  

I believe it was Draven who said that its usually a certain group who makes those comments, and yes, I agree.  IMO, those comments are made for a few reasons.  A) Because that is all they know, B) because their teachers can't provide them with any other answer, C) because they dont want to look outside their box, D) because they jump on the 'well, thats physically impossible to do' bandwagon and actually believe that it is impossible, when in reality it isn't.

This is why I said in my OP, that while its a good option, it may not be the best option.  Certain groups say run, but I get the impression that they're just going to curl up into a ball and crumble, if actually faced with the situations I mentioned, and can't run.  

As far as the laws requiring me to run...well, IMO, those are the best case scenarios, meaning, that yes, in the perfect world, this is what we do, this is what everyone tells us to do.  I'm not going to take the chance that by complying or trying to escape no matter what the situation, that its not going to bite me in the rear later on.  Way too many cases where people complied and got hurt anyways.  IMO, you wait too long, you wait wrong.  If that gets me in hot water, so be it.  My safety is #1 on my mind.  Never said I was going to stand there and turn this into an epic UFC battle.  If I can defend myself, while at the same time, taking a shot at the badguy, and then leaving, then so be it.  Again, awareness, environment, who you're with...all just a few of the things that we need to take into consideration.

This thread was pretty much to talk about the listed comments.  It just amazes me, that there are so many people out there, who say those things, because they have no other options.  IMO, that tells me, those people are not truely prepared for a SD situation.


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## MJS (Nov 10, 2009)

Fight, flight or freeze....this is why I'm a fan of scenario training.  Yes, I think its safe to say that we all know that we'll never replicate a RL situation 100%, but as far as I'm concerned, its better than nothing.  Train for these types of situations, and hopefully the freeze will be eliminated.


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## morph4me (Nov 10, 2009)

I remember training a drill where one partner took the other by the lapels and slammed him up against the wall.  We had people with varying degrees of experience, and running wasn't an option. 

There wqasn't really an oportunity to think about what to do, and freezing happened quite a bit, with quite a few people who had years of experience. 

The other reaction was to bounce back and go after the attacker. I personally had to remind myself that we were trainging, because for a second, I went into survival mode. After doing it a couple of times, freezing became less and less of an issue.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 10, 2009)

MJS said:


> I'll just run.
> So, this brings up the question....why do people put so much faith into running? Seems to me that running is the typical answer that everyone says, but always fails to mention plan b. It also tells me that some people that advocate this so much, may not have the skills to deal with the situation they're facing, so thats the best they can do....I'll just run.



Because it is true. I know for dead certain that I do not yet have the skills to defend myself properly against an armed attacker. Especially if he is not just asking for my wallet but wanting to attack me.

I am not ashamed to admit this.
Let me prove this by saying it again: I* do not have the skill and the experience to deal with that. *If I try, the odds are beyond bad.

So I'll run. Because that is my best bet. And if that fails or the attacker catches up with me, I am still not worse off than when I decided to run in the first place.

And if I can't run because my kids are with me, I'll have to see it as I go along. I'll tell THEM to run while I can hopefully stay upright long enough to grant them an escape. And I'll probably snuff it sooner or later, because I don't yet have the ability to fight with confidence. If I would have to do this now, I'd try to throw sand in his face, throw bricks, a garbage can, or do anything to delay to create an opening to run, or put off the inevitable.
This is also why I put so much emphasis on awareness and avoidance: they are the only things I can rely on yet, because my fighting skills are not good enough to face an armed or determined attacker.

As to whether I would freeze or not: that is possible. I have been jumped by friends 'for fun'. And the only reason they managed to laugh about it afterwards was that they jumped away instantly. But these are reflexes. If someone comes at you while you are aware of it, the reaction may be different. I only have a couple of years of MA under my belt, and I know where I am, ability wise. I know I can outfight the average joe, and if he does not expect me to fight back, it will go bad for him.
On the other hand, maybe he is an experienced fighter or worse: an epxerienced knife fighter. In that case I know that I am not going to cut it, so running -if possible- is my best bet because I don't lose anything by trying.


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## still learning (Nov 10, 2009)

Hello,  Avoidance is the best rules to follow...escaping anyway you can...FIRST chance you got..!

If one cannot flee? ....verbal's...talk you way out!

Lastly if one has NO choice but to defend one self?  ...go Offensive! ...do what it takes to end any confrontations....

Best to learn of laws and your rights when getting into confrontations (Physcial)....before hand..!

One must face the results of any fights that takes place!

Running away?  ...saves lots, injuries from happening,time,cost of cures-jail or morgue...

Run if you can...?

Aloha,  ....on an island..one can only run so far...before we meet again..


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## Draven (Nov 10, 2009)

Like I said I see freeze as more an "involentary submission" to a situation. There are certain pros and cons to running away. Its all depends on the intent of your attacker if he is there to mug you he less likely to attack you for running away, If he us there to prove his manhood he may chase you down seeing your running away as a sign of fear. 

Thats why I always tell my students that you need to know your enemy. If you are dealing with a criminal assault (violence or threat of violence to commit a crime) that person is "going to work" and often times won't risk greater threat of punishment over pride. If your dealing with the average tough guy, you can easily defuse the situation by first posturing to assert yourself as a hard target then by giving them a "safe out." For example a lot of "tough guys" like to use their girl friends as a pretext for a fight & most often it can be defused by first making that counter threat and then by a playing dumb and offering a peace offering. Basicly the words "You might be big but you ain't that big and I don't care for people threatening me. She never told me she had a man & if I'm stepping on your toes with her, I'm sorry but we can settle this by letting it die here and drink a beer togather or we can step outside & beat on each other for no reason."

Ussually that ends it but I've had a few guys who think they are in a gang because they have friends with them, in those cases make sure the first guy goes down in the first few hits & you gain a decisive victory ASAP nothing like watching someone seriously hurt you buddy to take the wind out your sails. I'm with MJS the idea of retreating often times makes issues worse and I think those legal cases are point blank stupid. Let me give you a example; a "friend of mine" was involved in an altercation where his drugged up lil brother attacked him in his home with a knife. He hit his brother in the head with a hammer & is currently pending a charge of malicious wounding. Problem is the LEO investigating believes that he should retreat from his lil brother while the state says there is a castle law that allows someone to defend their home, family, property or self.


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## K831 (Nov 10, 2009)

I was always taught to do both;

First; fight hard and put him down, second; flee before the fuzz shows up. 

Just kidding. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fwz7rxlOk8

I think for one, some people have a greater proclivity towards the "fight" reaction than towards the "flight" reaction and vise-versa. 

Many people have a hugely violence inhibited psyche. Seriously, even most people who train don't seem to actually have it in them to be aggressive and violent when it comes right down to it, so naturally they will first think of running. 

Then you have the people who are very capable of fighting (not just physically but capable emotionally and psychologically) but are smart enough to opt out if possible. 

For me, I don't consider it much of an option. If I am out in public it is because I am with my wife and kids. I am faster than them, so in that situation, it is verbal de-escalation or fight. 

This is where it gets tough, an attempt at verbally defusing the situation is commendable, but can also give bad guy a chance to strike first. I am not ok with that. My reaction is typically to use verbal tactics to buy me that millisecond moment for the sneaky shot and put him down, but that is just me. 

I try and work with my wife on situational awareness as well, and will sometimes test her to see if she noticed weird looking out of place guy at the park watching the kids play or gas station lurker near the ATM etc. Having the whole family aware (not paranoid) helps too. 




jks9199 said:


> It's the same way that many people who hold concealed weapons permits say "I'll just shoot my way out!" They ignore the possibility that they won't be able to draw fast enough, or won't have a safe backdrop to shoot into (do you really want to wing a few rounds in the direction of the elementary school playground?), or aren't confronted with a lethal force situation...


Agreed. I hear that too often. Of course, I know just as many people in the martial arts who dont look to firearms as part of their martial arts training, somehow thinking their Kung Fu skills will allow them to handle all situations with an empty hand. I think that is just as silly, if not more so.


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## jks9199 (Nov 10, 2009)

There are at least two types of "freeze."  One type is the instinctive "If I don't move, the sabretooth tiger wont see me and won't eat me."  There's no real thought to this type; it happens in the spinal cord.

The other type is more of a vapor lock, and is more likely to effect a trained individual.  It's a blend of different things (part of why I said at least two types); a bit of being locked in having too many options to choose from, and a bit of disbelief/denial at actually being involved in a situation, and some over-analysis of the events (and probably more).  Let me use some examples to maybe make what I'm saying a little clearer.  The first example is the classic OODA loop freeze; too many choices take too much time to decide among them.  The second element is something I see too often in cops; it's sometimes called presumed compliance.  They get used to people doing what they're told -- and when someone bucks, it sometimes surprises them, and it takes a few beats (sometimes more...) to get on track.  The third part is something I see a lot in sparring.  A person is so busy trying to decide if the opponent is attacking that they don't move... 

Like I said -- there very possibly are other types of freezes.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Nov 11, 2009)

I think that the first reaction of *most* untrained women is to freeze/submit. We are biologically adapted and culturally conditioned to react this way. Which is why many women make easy targets for bad guys with sexual violence on their minds, but we tend to get into fewer bar fights. 

When we get some training under our belts, then its a whole different ball of wax. We then become subject to the the entire line of reactions described here by the men. When I'm sparring my two biggest mistakes are 1) over-analysis and 2) over-aggression.  For example, I'll circle and read my opponent and try to see what he's about to do, and I slow my reaction time. Then he clocks me, and I react very aggressively (which is my natural reaction, unlike most women) and someone gets hurt. 

This also happens when we are practicing "surprise" attacks...I amp up and react in a big way and I don't exercise good control, and again the guy gets hurt. This is the part of my training that has proven the most difficult for me, controlling my aggression. It is fear-based and very deep down, and developing control means devloping mastery over my instinct to perform a technique full force and for keeps. So I suspect that if I get attacked I will forget to run and instead fight like hell, which may or may not work. I'm a very slow runner, so I'd better be a damn good fighter.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 11, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Monty Python said it best
> 
> King Arthur: Run away!
> 
> ...


 
When Danger reared its ugly head
Sir Robin turned his tail and fled...


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## Flying Crane (Nov 11, 2009)

Run away?  Hell, I've done it, more than once.  That might be the only reason I'm here now, alive, to type this.  I can't ever be sure about that, tho.  Another choice might have been just as good.  But you make a choice and it takes you someplace.  My choice to run took me home, safely.  So it was a good choice.

I understand that running isn't a choice for everyone, nor for every sitation.  But there it is.


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Because it is true. I know for dead certain that I do not yet have the skills to defend myself properly against an armed attacker. Especially if he is not just asking for my wallet but wanting to attack me.
> 
> I am not ashamed to admit this.
> Let me prove this by saying it again: I* do not have the skill and the experience to deal with that. *If I try, the odds are beyond bad.
> ...


 
And running is perfectly fine.  However, IMO, the difference lies in this....it seems to me that the majority of people who're advocating running because that is their only answer, is just that...their only answer.  They're doing nothing, unlike you, I assume, to improve on those areas.  I'm assuming that you, during your training, are working an solid answers to the situations I mentioned earlier.  I dont know what you train in, your rank, how you train, etc. so again, this is only an assumption on my part.


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2009)

Draven said:


> Like I said I see freeze as more an "involentary submission" to a situation. There are certain pros and cons to running away. Its all depends on the intent of your attacker if he is there to mug you he less likely to attack you for running away, If he us there to prove his manhood he may chase you down seeing your running away as a sign of fear.
> 
> Thats why I always tell my students that you need to know your enemy. If you are dealing with a criminal assault (violence or threat of violence to commit a crime) that person is "going to work" and often times won't risk greater threat of punishment over pride. If your dealing with the average tough guy, you can easily defuse the situation by first posturing to assert yourself as a hard target then by giving them a "safe out." For example a lot of "tough guys" like to use their girl friends as a pretext for a fight & most often it can be defused by first making that counter threat and then by a playing dumb and offering a peace offering. Basicly the words "You might be big but you ain't that big and I don't care for people threatening me. She never told me she had a man & if I'm stepping on your toes with her, I'm sorry but we can settle this by letting it die here and drink a beer togather or we can step outside & beat on each other for no reason."


 
Great points.   I've said that many times that its very important to assess each situation and respond accordingly, as each one will most likely be different.



> Ussually that ends it but I've had a few guys who think they are in a gang because they have friends with them, in those cases make sure the first guy goes down in the first few hits & you gain a decisive victory ASAP nothing like watching someone seriously hurt you buddy to take the wind out your sails. I'm with MJS the idea of retreating often times makes issues worse and I think those legal cases are point blank stupid. Let me give you a example; a "friend of mine" was involved in an altercation where his drugged up lil brother attacked him in his home with a knife. He hit his brother in the head with a hammer & is currently pending a charge of malicious wounding. Problem is the LEO investigating believes that he should retreat from his lil brother while the state says there is a castle law that allows someone to defend their home, family, property or self.


 
There have been a bunch of threads on the topic of retreating, both in the general sd areas and Kenpo.  My opinion holds the same...people IMO will tell you to run, because that is the safe bet.  I mean, how many times do we hear about a store clerk defending themselves, the police say it was a brave thing to do but also make a point of advising people that its not the best thing to do.  Personally, I work hard for the things I have.  There is nothing that says the BG wont blow my head off after I hand over my stuff.  Its happened many many times and personally, if I stand a chance of getting shot anyways, I may as well go out with a fight.


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2009)

K831 said:


> I was always taught to do both;
> 
> First; fight hard and put him down, second; flee before the fuzz shows up.
> 
> Just kidding.




Actually, depending on the situation, I may do just that.  I doubt the badguy would call help for someone else, but instead leave them for dead.  I'm sure this'll sound cold and mean to some, but hey...he obviously doesnt give a crap about me, so I dont care about him.


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## theletch1 (Nov 12, 2009)

MJS said:


> [/font][/color]
> 
> Actually, depending on the situation, I may do just that. I doubt the badguy would call help for someone else, but instead leave them for dead. I'm sure this'll sound cold and mean to some, but hey...he obviously doesnt give a crap about me, so I dont care about him.


 Doesn't sound cold hearted to me and if you add one simple line to K831s post it's actually sound advice...

Put 'em down, run like hell... call the police from a safe location.  Just putting 'em down and running puts you at a legal disadvantage but if you extricate yourself from the area to somewhere you deem safe and then call the police and make a report before the BG does you should be on more stable ground.


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## MJS (Nov 12, 2009)

theletch1 said:


> Doesn't sound cold hearted to me and if you add one simple line to K831s post it's actually sound advice...
> 
> Put 'em down, run like hell... call the police from a safe location. Just putting 'em down and running puts you at a legal disadvantage but if you extricate yourself from the area to somewhere you deem safe and then call the police and make a report before the BG does you should be on more stable ground.


 
Good point.  Then again, if I was fortunate enough to KO the SOB that tried to attack me, maybe he wouldn't recall what happened. 

Badguy: "Officer, I tried to mug this white guy, and he did this crazy Kenpo stuff on my ***...knocked me the **** out and I dont remember nothing, other than him whoopin' my ***."


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## Draven (Nov 13, 2009)

MJS said:


> Good point. Then again, if I was fortunate enough to KO the SOB that tried to attack me, maybe he wouldn't recall what happened.
> 
> Badguy: "Officer, I tried to mug this white guy, and he did this crazy Kenpo stuff on my ***...knocked me the **** out and I dont remember nothing, other than him whoopin' my ***."


 
Nah, they just call the cops and say you mugged them and you get charged for malicious wounding. Trust me I know, I could say more but the case is pending...


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## Guardian (Nov 15, 2009)

MJS said:


> [/font][/color]
> 
> Actually, depending on the situation, I may do just that. I doubt the badguy would call help for someone else, but instead leave them for dead. I'm sure this'll sound cold and mean to some, but hey...he obviously doesnt give a crap about me, so I dont care about him.


 
That's what I'm talking about, stay around for what, he/she attacks me, I'm not waiting around to see if they believe my story for the dirtbags, not in this lifetime, sorry, not going to happen.  I might call from a payphone or some other phone aways away from the scene if I suddenly get a conscious, but that's about it.

As far as run, as stated, it depends on the situation.


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