# Doesnt all that training go out the window?



## Corporal Hicks (Jan 6, 2005)

I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?

Regards

Nick


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## MA-Caver (Jan 6, 2005)

*Sigh*
Boy Scout motto Nick, the Boy Scout motto. 
You can train several lifetimes in whatever art you choose and be the best there ever has been. But nothing is going to stop you from getting your butt whupped by some cranked out punk-assed loser if you're not prepared. 
Several dozen threads have dealt with this particular topic already in one form or another. 
You can work out 4 or 5 days a week (gotta give your body a rest so knock off the everyday stuff) and train hard for four or five hours a day (gotta give your body a rest I tell ya!) and gradually your body is the epitome of the Martial Artist. 
But it ain't gonna be able to do squat if the mind isn't prepared along with it. Memorizing stances, kicks, forms, techniques, throws, joint locks, evasion, pin-downs, punches is all well and good and just as vital as honing your body to preform all of those. But it's been repeated here on MT that you have to train your mind to be watchful of your environment as well. Observe all who can be observed, look ahead of the path you're walking and see the numerous places an attacker/mugger/dipwad can hide and spring out on you in an ambush, see possible escape routes along the way... and so forth. 
It's not paranoid it's being smart... street smart and there are ways to do it without looking like you're looking over your shoulder every five seconds. :uhoh: 
When the attack happens you're already there and already ahead of them. You know where all the broken glass is and other stuff that you can trip on, you know how far it is behind you to the curb so when a guy is trying to back you into a corner you don't trip over it, your mind is prepared for that hand on the shoulder and that "hey buddy!" low and dangerous from behind. 


> "...last night the wife said; o' boy when you're dead, you gonna take nothing with ya but your soul.... _THINK!_"


 No truer words ever sang than those by John Lennon.  
Brain training, something taught to me by my friends in the Search And Rescue units. Brain train yourself to prepare for whatever comes. Don't go crazy with your imagination, be realistic, rely on past experiences ask yourself... what can I do better, what if? 
Another prepration and no less important. Your spirit. Call it warrior spirit or whatever you want. If you got a faith/religion that bolsters your spirit, then work on that as well, because that should be trained and worked and honed to a fine edge as much as your mind and body. 
Work a little on each, then work on tying them together in harmony. To where the mind, spirit and body are as one... you. :yinyang: 
Read my sigs... both of them. See how they relate to your experience and training and the years to come. 
Learn to read your surroundings and see the attack coming before it commences and thus you'll be better prepared and less surprised should it ever happen. Alert and sniffin at shadows ... that's you on the inside... but outside ... cool  :supcool:, confident  :ultracool , and at peace  :uhyeah:

It takes time but it'll happen. Be confident in your training and expect the unexpected. You'll be just fine. 

 :asian:


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## Bod (Jan 6, 2005)

I guess you want to learn to avoid total sucker punches where you didn't see it coming (i.e. not the type where the other guy chats you up while getting his stance correct - thats another kind of sucker punch).

If that is so then try this: get a friend to jump you every so often - think Cato and Cleuso. Note your response - it'll probably be along the lines of waving your hands around in front of your face and leaning backwards. Practice transitioning from this flinch response into a more appropriate response - say moving off at an angle, preparing your stance and moving back in or whatever.

Drill the response from the initial flinch. Be careful with attacks from behind - make sure it's appropriate - say turning away from a grabbing hand while raising a guard with some head movement - rather than an immediate back elbow / kick combination.

I find this has worked a treat. You train the flinch to be a stimulus for your next move. This may help to limit damage in an actual encounter.

My friend who I drilled these moves with actually pulled them off in real life when he got sucker punched. The flinch turned into a guard while stepping off followed by a high percentage move. He felt like he was just waving his hands around in panic but the video evedience made it look like he knew the punch was coming and reacted perfectly.

As for the other type of sucker punch - the interview sucker punch - check out Geoff Thompson.


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2005)

Excellent replies!  One thing that can aid in overcoming the fear, is to make sure that the training is "alive".  Now, before anyone starts on the aliveness kick--which this discussion is not about aliveness--- we need to keep in mind that while we may not be able to exactly replicate a street fight 100%, we can however, make sure that we are getting resistance on our 'attackers' part, when doing SD, as well as working techs. where you don't know what kind of attack is coming at you.

For example: There were times, when I'd do a tech. line or circle.  I would often have the 'attackers' throw out techs. that were unfamiliar to the 'defender' and 9 times out of 10, they would stand there with that "deer in the headlights" look on their face, clueless as to what to do.  I'd ask them, "Do you know how to block, punch, kick, move, etc?" "Yes" would be the reply.  My response would be, "Then do it!!"  And they would, and they would then realize that they don't have to think, but simply react.  A SD tech. does not have to be a complex series of 10 moves.  Short and Sweet!!!!!  The point of this:  To condition the student to react, and not think, "OK, what tech. do I do?" because when the heat is on, there will be no time for thinking.

Mike


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## loki09789 (Jan 6, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nick


Think about the difference between watching a little league baseball game, a high school level/college level/farm league/professional game:

What is the single most important difference between all these games?

Experience.  One year is not going to make a difference in 'street sense' or anything else.  Would one year of training make you fit for the MLB?  No.

It takes six months of immersion in a foriegn language on the average before you just start to get the littlest nuances/hints of patterns and basic conventions.  Until then it is just confusion and frustration.

Skill takes time.  Whether it is 'self control/awareness' skills or hand to hand skills.

Even at the professional levels, the difference between veteran players and freshmen players in clutch situations is vast.  Seasoned players are better able to stay come because of experience.  They are better at making tactical decisions, they are generally calmer because it isn't new.

Martial arts example.

We were working on a form in class, my wife has done it a million times  but it had been a while.  We went through it 10 times in the air first and then lined up so that with each direction change someone fed you the simulated attack.

On the second turn, the feeder decided to be tricky and use a stick instead of a punch.  She drew a blank because of that one piece of new stimulus and couldn't even remember the next steps after.

Experience is a BIG factor in how to hold onto some level of coolness and tactical responsiveness.


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## OC Kid (Jan 6, 2005)

Repitition, going over self defense against various attacks with simple yet effective techniques. They become action rather than reaction. Thats what makes the basics so good , is the effectivity and their simplicity.

thats kind (in my mind) the purpose of practicing kata, block and counter drills ect.

Example, I a situation not to long ago where someone tried to assualt me. they raised their knee like a TKD kick or a knee strike at close range. Iused a exact move out of Bassai Sho to block it. It was the kata I was practiccing over and over at the the time. After blocking the knee they came with a over hand bttom fist strike which I blocked using the very next move from the kata.

Coincidence..probably but effective yes.

Another situation using basics, on our line drills I use kicking and punching combos going fwd. When we reach the wall or as far as we can go in that direction I dont have the students turn around and repeat. Right from there we do defensive rear kicks (or another defensive kick).
my son got jumped twice both from behind and took the attacker out using the defensive rears that we practice with out any thought. It was all action in response to the situation. 
That can only come by repitition.

Learning and repeating the basics can be boring but once they are ingrained they will work for you.

Even in pro sports like football, players practice their assignments over and over till they become automatic. To where they dont even think. The QB justs takes the snap and throws the ball knowing the reciever will be there. in most cases he is.


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## DarrenJew (Jan 6, 2005)

You'll know if your catching on, when someone comes up from behind you and startles you. If you automatically jump into a fighting stance or take some type of defensive posture, you know your progressing.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 6, 2005)

Just like Inspector Clouseau !


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## Adept (Jan 6, 2005)

The bottom line is: You fight the way you train.

 If you arent trained to take on genuinely aggresive opponents, then when you have to do that you will react like any layman off the street.

 All the posts on this thread have given excellent advice. Pick what is most applicable for you, and apply it in your everyday life.


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 6, 2005)

Adept, great point. The owner of the MMA dojo when I kickbox says regularly to me that I "train hard" etc..it's most obvious on the heavy bag.  I tell him that I train the way I fight.. all out.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 7, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nick


If what your training is complex fine motor skills, then yes, it will all go out the window. If what you are training is simple gross motor techniques to deal with aggression and you train under realistic conditions, then no, it doesn't just go out the window. The problem sometimes isn't that the martial arts don't work, but that very visually appealing techniques that require fine motor skills don't work. Remember what the Martial in Martial Art means. Combat is combat, just because someones particular solution to a combat situation isn't effective, that doesn't mean that studying combat is useless. It just means you may have to reexamine what you are studying. Boxers aren't a loss about what to do in a street fight, nor are wrestlers, kick boxers, many BJJ practioners, etc. Because some types of styles and techniques are flawed in this area, some people pronounce all martial arts as ineffective, and that isn't the case.  I started out in police work from the academy trying to do the fine motor skill techniques they taught me.  In the 8 years since then i've developed techniques I teach to my officers and use myself that are built around gross motor functions that are simple, effective and decisive.  I try to tailor my techniques to things that are very natural to way the human body moves.  If I can't teach it in less than 5 minutes and the officer can't use it instinctively, I trash can the technique.  If it takes more than 5 minutes to figure out the technique after you're shown it, it won't work in the street (I didn't say master, I said learn it enough to demonstrate it.)  That should be a good rule.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 7, 2005)

Old musicians adage

"Practice how you'll play because you'll play how you practice"

Rather embarrasing but an instructor told me and another guy to do some two step sparring (no or minimal contact).  Aggressor does a reverse punch to the midsection, defender steps out with an outer-blck and counters with a reverse punch to the ribs.  First time my opponent did this, I instinctively reacted with a self-defense move I'd been taught and practicing, including a knife-hand shot to the tricep and a two punches to the ribs....poor guy


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## Drac (Jan 8, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> The bottom line is: You fight the way you train.
> 
> If you arent trained to take on genuinely aggresive opponents, then when you have to do that you will react like any layman off the street.
> 
> All the posts on this thread have given excellent advice. Pick what is most applicable for you, and apply it in your everyday life.


What he said...


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## Flamebearer (Jan 8, 2005)

Another old musicians' adage:

Practice does not make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.


So.... drill your muscles in a few basic blocks and strikes so you'll react instinctively. I liked the "flinch as trigger" comment earlier. Hopefully the drilled moves will see you through until your brain wakes up to the fact that you're being attacked.

Actually, awareness should come before _anything_. Be extremely paranoid! Keep thinking what you'd do if "that guy over there" made an aggressive move. Yeah, it can be embarrassing if you misinterpret a move. :whip: 
Here's a story.

I was at a local community college, walking down the hallway, and of course there were all these guys lounging around, leaning on the walls. I'm a very paranoid, suspicious person, so I was keeping an eye out for anybody that wanted to try anything stupid. One guy stepped out rather quickly as I was preparing to turn the corner, and before I knew it I'd slid my backpack off my shoulder (I only carry it on one) and my hands were halfway up to a guard position. Of course when I realized that he was only looking down the hall for his friend.... I felt pretty embarrassed. Stupid. Etc. (I hope nobody noticed - I _really _jumped the gun on that one.)

But the point is I'm trying to illustrate the kind of mindset I'm talking about.
I'm going to shut up now and let you laugh.:asian: 

-Flamebearer


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 8, 2005)

_Another old musicians' adage:

Practice does not make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect._

I learned that in swimming before I was even a musician.  It was a focus on proper technique

_Keep thinking what you'd do if "that guy over there" made an aggressive move_

He he, I'm starting to do that more often   I'm often out late at night and I've noticed my awareness is much higher and also my tendancy to keep a peripheral watch on the people around me


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## AC_Pilot (Jan 8, 2005)

Take up weapons training.. something real world like knife fighting with sparring (dull or plastic knives) Kali is the best art for me for this, as it's been proven for centuries in the Philpines, by, among others, some of the most fierce and dangerous of the islanders, the Moros. You'll learn to respect a weapon (and some people's ability to use them) and your speed and evasion/counterattack skills will grow. Train with as many different people as you can.. some people will surprise you with their speed and you'll grow and mature as a result.


Knife/stick/sword training, if it's realistic, tends to bring out a faster response and crisper motions. This builds reaction time and sensitivity, which are crucial. In JKD theory, ideally we do not "block", we "block or pass while simultaneously striking", the "third hand of kali" is a perfect example of this and why guru Dan Inosanto won Bruce over to Kali/Escrima. In fact Dan was to star in Bruce's last film in the pagoda fight scene. here's Dan's website: http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kali.html Note on the left side of the page, the sequence of the third hand of kali strike..(subtract the "gunting" or bicep destruction and just think about using the left arm to block/avoid and strike at the same time, by angling to the left with the upper body)

These techniques/theories can speed up your "response" and when you realize how to fully implement them, your confidence level will grow commensurately.


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## Corporal Hicks (Jan 10, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> Take up weapons training.. something real world like knife fighting with sparring (dull or plastic knives) Kali is the best art for me for this, as it's been proven for centuries in the Philpines, by, among others, some of the most fierce and dangerous of the islanders, the Moros. You'll learn to respect a weapon (and some people's ability to use them) and your speed and evasion/counterattack skills will grow. Train with as many different people as you can.. some people will surprise you with their speed and you'll grow and mature as a result.
> 
> 
> Knife/stick/sword training, if it's realistic, tends to bring out a faster response and crisper motions. This builds reaction time and sensitivity, which are crucial. In JKD theory, ideally we do not "block", we "block or pass while simultaneously striking", the "third hand of kali" is a perfect example of this and why guru Dan Inosanto won Bruce over to Kali/Escrima. In fact Dan was to star in Bruce's last film in the pagoda fight scene. here's Dan's website: http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kali.html Note on the left side of the page, the sequence of the third hand of kali strike..(subtract the "gunting" or bicep destruction and just think about using the left arm to block/avoid and strike at the same time, by angling to the left with the upper body)
> ...


Ok so I keep praticing with my nunchuckas which is already ingrained so I dont have to think about it, my brain commands the thought and my arms comply. I just have to apply this to normal fighting?

Regards


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## MJS (Jan 10, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Ok so I keep praticing with my nunchuckas which is already ingrained so I dont have to think about it, my brain commands the thought and my arms comply. I just have to apply this to normal fighting?
> 
> Regards



As for the weapons training mentioned in the post.  I believe that AC was talking about FMA training.  Yes, anytime you pick up a weapon, your hand/eye co-ordination will improve, but keep in mind that you're not fighting another person in training with nunchucks.  The FMAs consist of training weapon against weapon : Stick vs. Stick, Stick vs. Empty Hand, Stick vs. Knife, Knife vs. Knife, Knife vs. Empty Hand.  In this fashion, the hand/eye coord. will greatly improve.

Mike


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## OULobo (Jan 10, 2005)

I have to agree with Adept on this one. The best way to prepare for things that go wrong in a fight, as they always do, is to train with everything going wrong. The smallest things can throw off you concentration and your game. Train with things like adreanalin dumps, multiple attackers and wild fast strikes. I also agree with familiararity with gross motor strikes. They are what you will revert to in a panic and what you will experience from most attackers, so have them trained well.


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## Corporal Hicks (Jan 12, 2005)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I have to agree with Adept on this one. The best way to prepare for things that go wrong in a fight, as they always do, is to train with everything going wrong. The smallest things can throw off you concentration and your game. Train with things like adreanalin dumps, multiple attackers and wild fast strikes. I also agree with familiararity with gross motor strikes. They are what you will revert to in a panic and what you will experience from most attackers, so have them trained well.


Damn, I sure wish I had the time at the moment! Not with exams I dont! Damn!


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## DeLamar.J (Jan 15, 2005)

Its all about muscle memory Hicks. You have to train so much that your techniques come truely naturally. Thats why it takes so long to become a good martial artist, some have more of a nack and catch on fast, but not most. 
You have to train your punch so you cannot throw it any other way than the perfect way, without thinking about it. Not the other way around. 
When I am doing Wing Chun I get in trouble all the time because Im throwing punches like a karate guy, it seems like at times I could never be able break the habit.


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## Paul Genge (Jan 19, 2005)

One of the difficulties that arises is that most styles start off in some sort of kamae or fighting stance.  It therefore takes the artist to make the decission to stand in this stance prior to a fight starting or otherwise their trained drills are not going to be initiated as in their training sessions.

The reason why most martial artists get this wrong is that their pride stops them from getting into their ready position until it is too late.  After all who wants to look a idiot striking some fancy kung fu pose in the middle of a busy pub?  When you opponent decides better of starting a fight you are going to end up looking foolish.

The choice then appears to be to either study a martial art that works from a neutral position or one that is very subtle such as slightly blading the body and using the fence.  Another choice for all the die had karate/kung fu people is to not give a damn about how they look and use the kamaes they so diligently train.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## Corporal Hicks (Jan 21, 2005)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Its all about muscle memory Hicks. You have to train so much that your techniques come truely naturally. Thats why it takes so long to become a good martial artist, some have more of a nack and catch on fast, but not most.
> You have to train your punch so you cannot throw it any other way than the perfect way, without thinking about it. Not the other way around.
> When I am doing Wing Chun I get in trouble all the time because Im throwing punches like a karate guy, it seems like at times I could never be able break the habit.


Lol! Yeah I get that too with my Sifu in Wing Chun, he's always saying how my moves tend to be alot of Tae Kwon Do HUH! And TAI, then he says you've got to be more flowing with your moves!

I've heard praticing moves really really slowly like they do in Tai Chi is one of the best ways to get it into your muscle memory and have get it right, is this true?

Regards


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 30, 2005)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> One of the difficulties that arises is that most styles start off in some sort of kamae or fighting stance.  It therefore takes the artist to make the decission to stand in this stance prior to a fight starting or otherwise their trained drills are not going to be initiated as in their training sessions.
> 
> The reason why most martial artists get this wrong is that their pride stops them from getting into their ready position until it is too late.  After all who wants to look a idiot striking some fancy kung fu pose in the middle of a busy pub?  When you opponent decides better of starting a fight you are going to end up looking foolish.
> 
> ...



Paul

I don't really think that anyone seriously gets into a prescribed kamae/fighting stance when dealing with a SD situation.  Because then it wouldn't be SD but rather a fight/duel.  Normally fights start when someone gets surprised (sucker punched etc. etc.) and then it explodes from there.  So in those kind of instances I don't believe someone would adopt the karate kid classic crane stance and wait for the guy to back down (from the fight) or to charge in.

Now once contact is made and there is seperation between the people then I can see someone adopting a more fighting stance posture (although I still can't picture someone adopting the crane posture   ).

The fighting postures that I learned over the years all dealt more with duels between weapons (swords) (and sticks of various lengths) which is different than SD applications.  So maybe I've taken your post wrong and if so I apologize.

Mark


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## Danjo (Jan 30, 2005)

Muscle memory _is_ very key to this. On needs to train in all of the ranges and with the most effective weapons in those ranges in order to have them be reflexive. For instance, if you're likely to be using a hammerfist strike up close when startled and you begin to flail away, then you should practice that hammer fist 1000 times per week. Then, when you reflexively start using it to bash your assailant, it will be perfect even though you have been caught off guard. Your body will automatically throw that thing the way you have practiced it. Grand Master John McSeeney advocated the constant training of a few simple and effective move that you would be able to reflexively use in a fight as have many others. If Wing Chun doesn't address this need, then you will need to supplement your training.


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## Autocrat (Jan 31, 2005)

Think, think, think some more, then think it all over again.

If you cannot imagine a scenario occuring, picture the attacker/s doing various things, it happening whilst shopping, getting money from a bank, walking your friends home etc.... then you are boned!

   You can train all you like, yet if you have not PROGRAMED you brain to get into VILOENT GEAR, then you will get beaten.

Practicing moves is good.... when the brain realises what is happening, you can stand a chance... problem is, by the time your brain has got there, your heads on the floor and chewing boot!

Don't loose control, don't practice heroics.... think what is likely to occur..... grab and punch, swung round and punched... pushed from behind into a post etc.... then think of short, sharp and fast responses to deal wit hthe initial phase... kick their shins, thrust a hand towards their face and make them flinch... all this buys a second of time to get your brain into gear.

Practice that... not punches, kicks, takedowns, throws etc.... practice the intital 3 seconds.  3 seconds is the standard time before you eat dust!  You then have 10 seconds before the situation turns damn ugly, or dissapates into pushing matches.  If unlucky and fighting more than one, or someone who is good, then it should last 30 seconds to 120 seconds!

Think the situations through.  Think of resposnses.  Practice those responses slowly, then increase the speed.  Do this for 15 rep's per setup, atleast once a day, every day.

Then, when it all hits the fan, you will respond.  you will hit their shins and hook the back of their head... you will grab the hand they push with and whip throw them!

TRUST ME ON THIS...... even my friends don't play around with me for this... they get hurt.  It works.

You may not look like bruce lee or Jean Claude, but you will buy yourself time to either put them down, or run like hell!  (IMO, the latter is wiset! LOL)

Best of luck with the training.


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## Paul Genge (Jan 31, 2005)

Mark,

Your right when you say that using kamae as a starting point for fights in todays enviroment is only likely to be used in a match fight senario, where you have both agree to sort your problems out physcially.  But learning to work only from kamae then leaves obvious defeciences in a lot of styles.

Your comment about most fights starting with a surprise sucker style attack are partially right. The vast majority of fights are not totally without warning, but the victim either does not see it coming through lack of experience or they do not react in time due to fear of getting it wrong and looking stupid.  There is usually some sort of build up to a fight, during which the trained martial artist could use kamae to get ready.  However they are likely to look a fool and get laughed out of the pub if they did this.

The difficulty then arises because they are not in their ready stance when the attack comes.  If they rely on a technique based approach to defence (as most styles do) they cannot rely on their muscle memory to carryout the response that they trained in the gym. This is because they are not in the position that they usually drilled it from.  The body and therefore mind are not set up for action. 

This leaves us with a choice to either add extra material for working self defence techniques (often a popular approach), learn a style that works from a natural position or to find away of practicing that allows us to learn to respond to a physical threat, by moving away from it and into kamae.  This will often mean that you do not work against the opponent on their first attack, but avoid it so that you are then in a position to deal with following attacks as you have trained for.

As far as learning to work from a natural position I would recommend either Systema or Shinden Fudo Ryu from the Bujinkan.  Also some RBSD schools are good at this kind of thing.  There are probably many other schools both old and modern that offer us some useful solutions to this kind of problem, but these are the ones I have the most knowledge on.  

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## still learning (Jan 31, 2005)

Hello, Adrenline kicks in and our vision is tunnel.  Our mind gets clouded.

 True only in the movies you will see martials arts fight like an art, like it is taught. In real life fighting is no forms or blocks , just a free for all. Many black belts in a real street fight will fight like this (free for all style). Because in a real fight there is no rules and anything goes.

 The more you look at real fighting and the more you compare it to your style it does not match. Martial art is an art of self-defense training against it self.
 Real fighting is fast and furious,no rules,everything goes. Name me art that trains for this? With the "Woofing" too? Just my thoughts.....Still learning....Aloha


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## Autocrat (Feb 1, 2005)

OK.... I'm not sure if anyone else has spotted this, but I'm kind of concerned about it.....
Starting position?  Kamae?
What the hell.... once you get past the basics... most forms of karate etc. tecach you Ronagi Dachi... you know, short triangle or L stance, hands at your sides sort of thing.  I spend most of my time in this position, or in the thinking man poise, one arm across chest, the other hand is on my chin...... these are normal, everyday positions..... I don't think I ever , not once, dropped into a kiba dachi, zenkutsu dachi etc........ OK, I might get into Neko, but I like that stance! LOL

I've done Shotkan, GoJu Ryu, Almagamated Kickboxing, short periods of Whitehand crane and now studying Jiu Jitsu... and all of them have the basic stances, then progress into normal stances!

I'm really worried about the fact that several people have stated they train from xxx stance etc.  WHY?  Just spend a couple of minutes a day switching from normal, everyday positions into a short, firm stance whilst moving arms into a guard position, or halfway through a technique or block sequence!  That will kick bad habbits and program the brain to respond to such needs!


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## Corporal Hicks (Feb 1, 2005)

Your fighting stance should be your everyday stance. Well according to Bruce Lee anyway, which is basically true. Though I dont stant around making a point of falling into a JKD stance or neither a wing chun stance cos I dont want to look and fight like a cat, unless I want them to think I'm a mental patient, which probably isnt far from the truth! lol

Regards


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## DarrenJew (Feb 1, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Your fighting stance should be your everyday stance. Well according to Bruce Lee anyway, which is basically true. Though I dont stant around making a point of falling into a JKD stance or neither a wing chun stance cos I dont want to look and fight like a cat, unless I want them to think I'm a mental patient, which probably isnt far from the truth! lol
> 
> Regards


Agree

Outside the martial arts studio, or working out in the privacy of your home. I think most of use would like to keep a low profile. In our normal daily lives... dont really want to advertise you know something, youll loose the element of surprise should you really happen to need it. Flashing your fancy fighting stance and practicing some shadow boxing in the halls at work, you may even draw so much attention to yourself, the neighborhood tough guy may not think that you're the hot stuff you make yourself out to be. Keeping a low profile you avoid unnecessary conflict and gives you that edge you need when you need it.


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## Ray (Feb 1, 2005)

In my instructor's class he would have us form a circle; one student would be in the middle of the circle and would have to defend against a random punch, kick and grab attack.  One day, a policeman who was an orange belt (kenpo), was in the middle and his reaction to the first attack was to reach for his side-arm (which wasn't there, because he wasn't in uniform).  It was funny to see and instructive.

Also, when my friend and I first began martial arts we worked in a factory.  Our co-workers were fun people and would "attack" my friend from time to time.  That all stopped when a guy jumped out from around a corner, right in front of my friend, and was knocked out with a punch to the chin.

Of course, there are those times when you're not thinking and do some stupid stuff.  On night, I was attempting to arrest a shoplifter.  He was already in his car and had started it.  I leaned in through the window and reached for the key (to turn it off and take the key).  He popped it into drive and started going.  I was able to get out of his window and, man, was I angry.  It was a stupid, stupid thing I did -- I could have been stabbed, shot or {who knows what else}.  Although I wasn't specifically trained for that occurance I should have thought it through a little better.


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## Autocrat (Feb 2, 2005)

..."I should have thought it through a little better."

Those could quite easily be the last words!
thinking is the first and last step to preparation!  Yet they are not involved in acting!
Train, practice, think!
React!

It's that simple.  just 10 minutes a day, and your friends and family won't come within 3 foot of you!  (well, not after the second or third time you hit them! LOL)

So, how many people are higher grades that have been taught the Ronogi Dachi, (however it's spelt!) or standard stance ... in their style?  Or do most of your styles require you to use the more obvious stances?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 2, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nick


although this is blaspheme in some circles I would advise that you compose a list of what you want to control in a fight, and if not control become neutral too. You might start out with your attitude, just having your head up and looking alert can ward off some of those succer punches, pay attention to where you are and accept that you may be fighting for your life at any given moment so you might want to control your weight, fitness, drug and alcohol intake, ect. Once you have established possible opponents control the distance between you and position your self relative to your environment and your abilities. Control his position if posible and or position your self against strengths you percieve. Once you recognize your opponent is in a position unfavorable to you, manuever and cause him to readjust. {so far no blows have been exchanged} Once you acheive a position of strength you may choose a target within range and or start a maneuver that can get you to the chosen target before prior conditions degrade. A criticle stage is of course going to involve what weapon you choose to introduce to the target. If you were doing the busy work at the begining of this paragraph you should have already chosen a natural weapon or secured one already on your person. Choose angles that negate your opponents defenses and give your self an out every time (ie don't walk into punches, remember to give him something on the way out, don't bring a knife to a gunfight ect.)
Sean


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## Autocrat (Feb 2, 2005)

Just re-read these posts again...... and can't help but ask.... has anyone found a way of recovering from the suprise attack, (apart from not being suprised!) ?

I've had a couple of situations when someone walks by, I've relaxed a bit, and they've stepped behind and hit me in the back of the kidneys etc.  Kind of hoping I've missed a techniques or method of movement to get out of the danger zone quickly without opening myself up!


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## Phoenix44 (Feb 3, 2005)

I think you'd have to consider what aspects of your training "go out the window."  What I notice most, as a woman, is the diminution of the "fear factor."  I'm no longer afraid of the average group of high school punks hanging out on the corner.   Alert, yes, afraid, no.  That I attribute to training.  So clearly "all" of my training doesn't go out the window in a threatening situation.

I understand that you guys might not consider a bunch of high school punks a "threatening" situation, but trust me, to the average 5'5" 125 lb woman, it IS threatening, and I would have felt threatened years ago.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2005)

Autocrat said:
			
		

> Just re-read these posts again...... and can't help but ask.... has anyone found a way of recovering from the suprise attack, (apart from not being suprised!) ?
> 
> I've had a couple of situations when someone walks by, I've relaxed a bit, and they've stepped behind and hit me in the back of the kidneys etc.  Kind of hoping I've missed a techniques or method of movement to get out of the danger zone quickly without opening myself up!


That is very nice dream, but if you get succer puched and were caught unaware, you get hit just like everyone else. Sure you can train to react quicker when you realize you are under attack but tricks such as stepping off the line of attack are things you do before you get smacked.
Sean


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## Adept (Feb 3, 2005)

Phoenix44 said:
			
		

> I understand that you guys might not consider a bunch of high school punks a "threatening" situation, but trust me, to the average 5'5" 125 lb woman, it IS threatening, and I would have felt threatened years ago.


 High school punks are a very serious threat that everyone should take seriously. Alcohol and drugs combined with bored and egotisitcal young men is a dangerous combination at the best of times.


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## AC_Pilot (Feb 3, 2005)

What adept said. These days the trouble makers tend to clear the sidewalk for me, but I can see a lady or weaker less aggressive person would rightly be _very _concerned. 

The problem is that they don't *fear* you, sometimes that's the *only thing* that will back off creeps, genuine fear for their anatomy. I have seen this many times when walking our well-trained 150 lb male Rottweilers.. the creeps will almost pee their pants when that furry good guy gets a _*target lock*_.. The BGs definitely forget any bad intentions and show respect, fast.


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## Autocrat (Feb 4, 2005)

Being male or female, trained or untrained... the fear doesn't go away, (well, I hope not, it's one of natures way of ensuring we survive - instinct!), it's just not so powerful as to control our thoughts or actions.
   One of the reasons my father started me off with martial arts was to help lower my fears.... I have a temper, and the two things to set it off are panic and lots of pain..... so now it takes a damn lot of people and a serious situation before I go beserk, and as for the pain.... I'd probably have to suffer alot of breakage before going!

Thats what the trainings for!  Get angry, make mistakes!


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## RRouuselot (Feb 4, 2005)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> I seem to notice that when you may be taken by suprise in a street fight everything you have learnt seems to go out of the window and it turns into a mass brawl, for example, I've being doing Kung Fu (Wing Chun) for a while almost a year but I'm not sure if I was thrown into a situation where somebody just ran at me I would be able to successful react and defend myself in a Martial Art response, I'm sure I would just panic and refrain to a sucker punch, how could I stop this and keep my cool?
> 
> Regards
> 
> Nick


 
_*You will fight the way you train*_if people train in non-serious environment with out having to work under pressure then it only stands to reason they will be unprepared. I have seen many people that do tippy-tap kumite that swear they can handle themselves in a real situation but when we put on protective gear and go full contact they lose it and get all excited and frustrated when the first blow lands. 

   Soldiers just dont practice on the firing range and the go off to warthey do live fire exercises and so on which have more stress to better prepare them for the real thing.


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## JKD_Silat (Mar 7, 2005)

Flamebearer said:
			
		

> Another old musicians' adage:
> 
> Practice does not make perfect.
> Perfect practice makes perfect.
> ...


 
Better to be safe and embarrased every once in a while, than the alternative.


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## Jerry (Mar 9, 2005)

Sorry for redundancy:

Some material is more suited to a given situation than others. The more suited your material is to what you are doing, the more likely you will do it rather than abandon it.

Some training is more suited to instilling as reflext material than other training is. The more suited your training is to instilling the material, the more likely you will use the material under stress.

Some material/training is more suited to given individuals than other material/training. Same rule.

Some material/training/people are more suited to retention under sudden stress. Same rule.

We've had good success with students as new as 6 months ending up in surprise fights and useing our material. 

My first suggestion would be "try some realistic role-playing with sparring and see what comes out. If cou can video-tape yourself". It's not a perfect way to see what you will do under less controlled conditions... but many people don't do their material even under limited-rules sparring. If you don't do it then, you are not likely to do it "on the street".


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## Kamaria Annina (Mar 13, 2005)

In aspects I agree with this, and in some aspects I do not.  Of course it is possible for the situation to be overwhelming and you don't have control over it.  However, although I haven't been in a life threating situation, I assume it would be difficult to think clearly.  There have been times when I have felt a situation is right, and sometimes, I have even found myself automatically blocking or protecting myself.


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