# The Centerline Principle of Strength & Power



## TMA17 (Jan 31, 2018)

The Centerline Principle of Strength & Power


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## Martial D (Feb 2, 2018)

Cool seeing WC stuff(principles) delivered in non WC form. 

Effective is effective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2018)

What's the WC strategy that if your opponent tries to separate your arms away from your body and occupy your center?

Just like A does to B.


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## geezer (Feb 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the WC strategy that if your opponent tries to separate your arms away from your body and occupy your center?
> 
> Just like A does to B.


One strategy: Turn and/or sidestep to get an angle. and go in the "side door".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2018)

geezer said:


> One strategy: Turn and/or sidestep to get an angle. and go in the "side door".


Front the side door, your opponent's "arm guide" can still bring him back into your front door again. IMO, the WC center-line principle doesn't include how to deal with your opponent who is "already" in your front door. 

Of course you can prevent it from happening. What if it has already happened?


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Front the side door, your opponent's "arm guide" can still bring him back into your front door again. IMO, the WC center-line principle doesn't include how to deal with your opponent who is "already" in your front door.


So the wc person just holds their arms out and open!? Is that what your long ago wc training actually have you do, if so I can understand your displeasure with your training.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> What if it has already happened?


"If" inside the wrist and on the line cut the line with the elbow while shifting the angle cycling the opposite arm to wu being prepared to strike or defend is a lot better than standing with the arms open and getting hit or clinched.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 3, 2018)

Danny T said:


> So the wc person just holds their arms out and open!?


I'm talking about situation like this.

- When you punch, your opponent can wrap your punching arm.
- When your opponent punch, you block, your opponent can still wrap your arm.

Now your opponent controls your center-line and you have to deal with this situation. As far as I know, the WC sticky hand training that I have learned does not include how to deal with this situation - your opponent tries to wrap your arm.

In other words, the WC sticky hand train you how to stick to your opponent's arm. It doesn't train you the opposite - how not to be contacted by your opponent's arm.

IMO, the solution is very simple. When your opponent tries to wrap your arm, you just rotate your arm the same direction as his arm is rotating. This will make your opponent's arm to wrap into the thin air. If your opponent can't touch your arm, he can get into your front door and control your center.

My question is, in the following clip, if the red shirt guy is a WC guy, what should he do right at that moment?


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about situation like this.
> 
> My question is, in the following clip, if the red shirt guy is a WC guy, what should he do right at that moment?


LOL...Circle his right while striking with the left instead of just standing there taking shots from Bas.


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## Martial D (Feb 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Front the side door, your opponent's "arm guide" can still bring him back into your front door again. IMO, the WC center-line principle doesn't include how to deal with your opponent who is "already" in your front door.
> 
> Of course you can prevent it from happening. What if it has already happened?


I'm the first to point out WC doesn't answer all questions, but that one definitely falls square into WC territory. There are a few answers. Number one why are the WC man's arms spread like that to begin with? Number two just contract arms back to center while shifting right or left. Number 3 pak outside elbow on either hand to open and attack an undefended outside gate. Number 4 pak outside elbow while striking down the middle with the other hand simultaneously. Number 5 pak outside elbow and pin the arm by sinking it down. Etc etc etc.


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## KPM (Feb 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Front the side door, your opponent's "arm guide" can still bring him back into your front door again. IMO, the WC center-line principle doesn't include how to deal with your opponent who is "already" in your front door.



Why would you say that?  One doesn't have to occupy the centerline to protect the centerline.   A closed guard (both hands on the centerline) invites the opponent to go around.   An open guard (both hands wide of the centerline) invites the opponent to come up the middle.  There are most certainly strategies to deal with either one.  In fact, in Wing Chun as I practice it, I prefer a bit of an open guard and for the opponent to punch straight up the middle.  This allows me to sidestep and Pak and take the flank or "blindside" or "side door" pretty easily.  The Pak keeps the opponent from being able to just pivot and track me.  This is TWC 101.


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## geezer (Feb 4, 2018)

^^^^ Pak and move to the outside to attack. That's not just TWC, but a good fighting strategy period! 

KPM -- is it just me, or does John's diagram and the scenario he describes look a lot like he's still thinking about his "Big Fist" or "Rhino Guard" again?  ....As though it is something WC can't deal with?


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## geezer (Feb 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about situation like this.



Best counter to that situation _-- don't pick a fight with Bas Rutten! _


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## jlq (Feb 4, 2018)

1. wrapping/overhooking is only possible if the limb is extending or kept in an extended position. So if you follow the Wing Chun maxims that should never happen, a technique never stays. The short amplitude of the movements and the speed at which they change would make this sort of wrapping very difficult to pull of

2. If you really stick to the point of contact, he won't be able to wrap as this requires to change the contact point. Also, if you seel off the opponen'ts bridge (Fung or Chaam for example), he cannot wrap without having to break the seal first.

3. "But what if does happen"? All sorts of things can happen in a fight for various reasons, but this has nothing to do with "chi sau not preparing one to handle over- (and under-hooking) of ones limbs. Chi Sau or any kiu sau training should prepare you for anything that can happen from a bridged position.

If you find yourself in an unexpected position, ideally you should just "let the principles" take over instead of looking for a specific counter technique (there is a big "but" here, though  ). Considering that a wrap is a movement which leads to a hold, there are several ways of defeating it, if sticking to.the point is not possible or if the opponent tries to break the seal. But that would be handled the same as any other technique.
Another situation is when the hold has been established. In that case there are several conceptual solutions, "avoid the solid, strike the empty", employ "lau" to leak out.

Finally, it should be remembered that Wing Chun is not a grappling or wrestling martial art as is evident from a cross lineage overview of how the art was passed on before MMA became popular. 

It is not designed to play a clinching and wrestling game, so if one feels the need to find technical solutions to clinching and wrestling problems, one should look there.

One should not expect a style like Wing Chun to be able to prepare for everything that could possibly happen.

No system does.

Western boxing is a stand up fighting style specialized in punching and striking, why should it prepare the exponent to counter someone throwing them?

Why should Wing Chun have technical solutions for all sorts of things which could possibly happen? 

In spite of what many people think nowadays, it is not a "complete" art that effectively covers every possible scenario and situation out there.

At the end of the day, technical discussions about what one would do etc. are pointless because the are too many variables and things to factor in which affect what one would do in a given situation and how.

Only reality will show.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2018)

geezer said:


> Best counter to that situation _-- don't pick a fight with Bas Rutten! _


Most of the WC training, your forearm deal with your opponent's forearm - WC range.






In the following clip, A's forearm deals with B's upper arm - clinching range.






My question is how will the closer distance (WC range -> clinch range) may affect the WC center-line principle.


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## wckf92 (Feb 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the WC strategy that if your opponent tries to separate your arms away from your body and occupy your center?



Attack.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 4, 2018)

jlq said:


> Why should Wing Chun have technical solutions for all sorts of things which could possibly happen?


Agree that WC is not a wrestling art. It's just discussion and not argument. 

The WC center-line principle may be affected by the distance. In other words, does WC center-line principle only make sense in the striking range?


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## geezer (Feb 4, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The WC center-line principle may be affected by the distance. In other words, does WC center-line principle only make sense in the striking range?



The DTE MMA guys I sometimes train with use something very similar to my understanding of WC _centerline_ and_ forward intent_ in both striking and grappling. So I would say that the concept can apply to multiple ranges.


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## jlq (Feb 4, 2018)

KF Wang,

The Wing Chun Centerline concept and other line concepts relate only to Wing Chun, yes. 

(note that even in Wing Chun circles there is not a uniform understanding of what "centerline" means and how it is applied, etx. After all, there are many centerlines, so which one are you referring to?)

Just because other styles talk about the same thing it doesn't mean that they are referring to the same thing nor that they are applying the concept the same way.

Depending on the level of abstraction, i.e. how loosely one understands the term centerline one might think it is some universal, elastic principle...

To me it is rather specific and it relates specifically to other concepts which define the art.

So no, they don't change according to distance or anything else.

Mind you, some styles see the three forms as encompassing different concepts, so those styles do have concepts to be applied in situations illustrated in your pictures.

So you don't have to bend a framework out of shape to make it do sth it was never intended to do (Wing Chun was not designed for ground geappling, f.ex.) because you have specific concepts for different situations.

Chi Sau/bridge work should have three depths (3 gates).

Basically, wrist - elbow - shoulder (i.e. the whole arm from distal to proximal).

All should be trained.

Just because someone is bridging above the elbow does not make it a clinch.

The picture (I can't see the video here) of Bas doesn't show clinching range, the guy on the right has plenty of space to leak out.

So, does Wing Chun prepare you to handle such a thing?

Absolutely, but it depends on the individual whether or not he/she can make it work.

I think that is all there really is to it...



br


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## Cephalopod (Feb 5, 2018)

I think it was all downhill from here:



Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the WC center-line principle doesn't include how to deal with your opponent who is "already" in your front door.



Since opening your opponent's center or getting in the front door, as you call it, is a primary stratagy of WC fighting you better believe that we spend a lot of time training how to avoid getting your center opened and recovering from when your center has been opened. And yes, at fingertip range, at fist range, at elbow range...hell, even at head-butt range.

That's why when chunners read a sentence like that it sounds like "what does a BJJ guy do if his opponent throws _him_ to the ground? BJJ doesn't train for that!".

But curiosity should never be discouraged! Since the scenario is fairly general and the WC solution is highly dependent on directions of movement, tensions, speeds etc., the best was to get an answer to your query might be to find a decent WC guy to roll with. To begin with, you might find it's not that easy to get an arm wrap on him.


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## Cephalopod (Feb 5, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My question is, in the following clip, if the red shirt guy is a WC guy, what should he do right at that moment?



I can't resist:

1) He landed on Planet Rutten wearing a red shirt. He's done for.

2) It's Bas Rutten. He should find Bas's fist and smash his face into it as hard as he can. At least his liver might remain intact.

3) Ok, I'll play along and pretend it's not Bas.
Having my right arm caught in the wrap is not what worries me. What does: is he controlling my balance? If I can relax my right arm enough to control my own balance (even better: control his balance) then I'm not too concerned. We're both fighting with one arm and I've trained a lot at that distance. Don't punch, don't block, just cover center and respond to what happens.


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## jlq (Feb 5, 2018)

If it is Bas, the problem starts way before the arm wrap...


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## Juany118 (Feb 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> Why would you say that?  One doesn't have to occupy the centerline to protect the centerline.   A closed guard (both hands on the centerline) invites the opponent to go around.   An open guard (both hands wide of the centerline) invites the opponent to come up the middle.  There are most certainly strategies to deal with either one.  In fact, in Wing Chun as I practice it, I prefer a bit of an open guard and for the opponent to punch straight up the middle.  This allows me to sidestep and Pak and take the flank or "blindside" or "side door" pretty easily.  The Pak keeps the opponent from being able to just pivot and track me.  This is TWC 101.




And if you want to get really fancy step in with a solid cheun. Not only does that make it difficult for him to pivot, you are covering against his other hand, while you tak his balance and "trap" that limb.  He now either has to work against his own body (not a good choice),or t-step away, in order to recover, thus losing initiative.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 7, 2018)

KPM said:


> One doesn't have to occupy the centerline to protect the centerline.


- The red punches with his left.
- The blue punches with his right.

At this particular moment, who is protecting the center-line?

1. Red?
2, Blue?
3. Both?

Do both share the same center-line?


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## KPM (Feb 8, 2018)

^^^^ At that particular moment, blue has "taken the line."  He is on the centerline and red is not.  That is Wing Chun 101.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm talking about situation like this.
> 
> - When you punch, your opponent can wrap your punching arm.
> - When your opponent punch, you block, your opponent can still wrap your arm.
> ...



Take the center line in a clinch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 8, 2018)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ At that particular moment, blue has "taken the line."  He is on the centerline and red is not.  That is Wing Chun 101.


Are you saying if A is in B's front door then A is on B's center-line even A's center-line and B's center-line may merge as one?

At 1.02 in the following clip, who has controlled over the other's center-line while

- A's arms wraps around B's waist, and
- B's arms wrap around A's upper body?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 8, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Take the center line in a clinch.


I'm interested in the connection between WC center-line and clinch.


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## Juany118 (Feb 9, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you saying if A is in B's front door then A is on B's center-line even A's center-line and B's center-line may merge as one?
> 
> At 1.02 in the following clip, who has controlled over the other's center-line while
> 
> ...



To answer the first question I believe you saying that blue has controlled the center line because the matter of his attack clearly forced red to miss.  Having control of the center line isn't just about being in a dominant position, for lack of a better term. It's also about having Disturbed in one way or another your opponent Center / balance. 

You can do this through striking as we see in red versus blue and you can do this via grappling as we see in the clinch video.  As an example I would say I control the center if I apply as successful arm bar takedown on my opponent.  This is because my personal Center Line, the center mine plain, and my opponents Center or three distinctly different things. My centerline can face, and attack my oppoent's center 360 around him.  His centerline can this be facing away from or perpendicular to me.  This is part of what "fighting on the blind side" is all about.

So tl;Dr, controlling the centerline is really, imo, about me maintaining control of my center while disrupting the opponents at the same time.  If I do not disrupt my opponents but I successfully protect my Center I have not controlled the Centerline I simply defended it.  I break it down this way because two opponents cannot simultaneously control the same object / position


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 9, 2018)

drop bear said:


> two opponents cannot simultaneously control the same object / position


How about the symmetry?

For example,

- A's right Tan Shou is inside of B's left punch. B's right Tan Shou is inside of A's left punch.
- A's arms wrap around B's waist. B's arms wrap around A's head.

A's chest is facing to B's chest. B's chest is facing to A's chest.


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about the symmetry?
> 
> For example,
> 
> ...



A fifty/fifty position?


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## drop bear (Feb 11, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm interested in the connection between WC center-line and clinch.



i assume they are just parralel theories.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 11, 2018)

drop bear said:


> A fifty/fifty position?


This is why I believe that "arm wrap" can make the WC center-line principle less meaningful.

When

- A has over hook on B, and
- B also has under hook on A,

it's a 50-50 position. Both A's free arm and B's free arm can punch on each other equally. At this moment, whoever has his free arm inside the other person's free arm will have advantage.


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## wckf92 (Feb 11, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I believe that "arm wrap" can make the WC center-line principle less meaningful.
> 
> When
> 
> ...



But is seems to me that you are contradicting yourself. One could say, that inside is equal to outside and outside is equal to inside with regard to elbow position. Who has the advantage will depend on how their elbow pressure training was conducted. For example, the outside elbow could easily Jum (sink/compress) the inside elbow out of the way enroute to punching his face...just as easily as the inside elbow could Tan (wedge/disperse) the outside elbow enroute to punching, etc. 
IMO.


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