# Ineresting topic on E-digest



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 11, 2004)

>>He does mention Moncal, Bacon and Marranga
>>all of Balintawak note. He also uses balintawaks 12 basic strikes and
>>counters with the stance variations

>The balintawak numbering system and the Modern Arnis numbering system are actually different.

*I didn't say the numbering system was the same. True, Strikes 3, 4, 6, 7,
8, 9 are switched around e.g. Modern Arnis 3 strike to the left shoulder is
a Balintawak strike to the right shoulder. However, the target areas,
general execution and types of strikes are the same. 
My point being that Modern Arnis 12 basic strikes comes from Balintawak.*

>>On the statement about agricultural or jungle fighting bolos.....well??
>>Looking through my books I don't see any particular difference between
>>the ones described in the books and the ones I have at home.

>Check out the DVD.  Bram explains it far better than I do.

*I try to bring back two or three knives back from the PI each trip.  At
last count I have just over a dozen with these coming from different areas.
 You can buy these knives from off street blacksmiths that forge them
mostly from leaf springs.  If you tell them what you want they will make it
for you, however, the stock standard "bolo" ranges from about 18 in to 30
in.  "Bolo" is a Tagalog word, Visayans use different words to distinguish
between the various types.  Stock standard bolos are all of agricultural
use.  Ask these guys to make you a "Jungle fighting bolo" and they will
look at you as if you're crazy. From any of my experience in the PI  I've
never come across a "Jungle fighting bolo"   


Interesting side point to the "Jungle Fighting Bolo" story is that there is
a rumour that a special machete was manufactured in Australia for the 978th
Signal Service company during WW2.  These guys were Macarthur's "mission
men" inserted into the PI by submarine. They were trained both at Camp X
and jungle fighting by Australian troops at Canungra jungle training
centre.  These guys were recruited from the 1st (and 2nd) Filipino
Regiments who fought in New Guinea and participated in the reinvasion of
the PI.  For these guys the bolo was not standard issue. From what I can
tell no bolos were issued as part of the standard kit (unlike Gurkha's with
their Kurkri) for any of the Filipino troops raised either at the start of
the war in the PI or in the states.*

>From what I know of balintawak having just been in cebu, I was told by
several masters >there that balintawak is stick based. Originally when
Anciong Bacon studied the art, it >was espada y daga based.

*Anciong didn't study Balintawak, he created it. Moncal and Marranga were
just two of his senior students.  The "poking of the dagger into training
partners" is pre Balintawak when he was involved with the Doce Pares club.
Who did you study with in Cebu?*


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## bart (Jul 11, 2004)

Hey Folks,

In 2000 I was able to attend a seminar with Master Nick Elizar of Balintawak in Cebu. They went over some basic defenses and some of it really reminded me of  Modern Arnis. That same trip I was able to get a good session with Master Drigo Maranga. I was again intrigued at how much of the roots of Modern Arnis lie within Balintawak. Modern Arnis is fundamentally different, the two arts having branched and gone in different and at times almost unrecognizable directions. But the "single-stickness" of Modern Arnis and some of the very very basic techniques are too similar to have developed similarly by chance alone especially given the history of GM Presas in Balintawak.


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

I am confused about the purpose of the original post.  Is it to dispute the highlighted portion, discuss the idea and if so which one specifically?  The topic of Bolo, Balitawak, Modern Arnis/Balitawak comparison/contrast?  Who wrote what portions of the post (bolded and the unbolded portions)?

I would say that given GM RP training history, the Balintawak link is pretty clear.  There are definitely similarities, but there are also differences.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The topic of Bolo, Balitawak, Modern Arnis/Balitawak comparison/contrast?




All, none, what ever you choose. There are a couple topics in the thread. What do you think?
 :whip:


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## Emptyglass (Jul 12, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Interesting side point to the "Jungle Fighting Bolo" story is that there is
> a rumour that a special machete was manufactured in Australia for the 978th
> Signal Service company during WW2.  These guys were Macarthur's "mission
> men" inserted into the PI by submarine. They were trained both at Camp X
> ...



This is interesting information. However, these are worth looking at:

http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy3.jpg

and 

http://pt-go.com/popup.asp?ImagePath=images/Legacy2.jpg

I suppose it is possible that those pictures are war propoganda and used to encourage soldiers. However, I would also put forth that given the size and scope of a conflict like World War 2 in the Far East, that the bolos shown were used for jungle fighting by some Filipino regiments at some point. I'm not sure where the idea of the blade depicted being "special issue" or of a special design came from. However, it does indeed seem to be designed for slicing and stabbing living creatures rather than cutting reeds or rice.

Also, the photos on page 13 of The Filipino Martial Arts by Dan Inosanto also shows this exact weapon. This is a near perfect match of the bolo used by Master Bram Frank in CSSDSC - The Bolo Vol. 1-2. Since the blades he uses were given to him by Grandmaster Presas and he was told they were used by his relatives during the war (IIRC), I guess it depends on who you want to believe.

However on that same page is a picture of a regiment of Filipino soldiers training with what look like standard machetes so I would think that different regiments were supplied with whatever weapons were at hand or locally available for requisition and that it most likely varied quite a bit.

Rich Curren


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> All, none, what ever you choose. There are a couple topics in the thread. What do you think?
> :whip:


It would be easier to comment if I knew who was posting which portion of the post.  Who wrote the bolded portion and who wrote the unbolded?


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## Emptyglass (Jul 12, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> *I try to bring back two or three knives back from the PI each trip.  At
> last count I have just over a dozen with these coming from different areas.
> You can buy these knives from off street blacksmiths that forge them
> mostly from leaf springs.  If you tell them what you want they will make it
> ...



I hadn't heard that you had been to the Philippines. Congratulations. That must have been educational. Where/when did you go and did you do any training with the Modern Arnis Masters (or other arnisadors) there?

Rich Curren


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## Guro Harold (Jul 12, 2004)

I believe Tim was quoting from this source from E-Digest not writing his own comments:

*Eskrima Digest, Vol11 #272, Message 1, titled Balintawak and bolos by (david eke)*


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## Emptyglass (Jul 12, 2004)

Ahhh, makes sense now as it appeared to me the bolded comments were Tim's inclusions.

Thanks Palusut.

Rich Curren


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## bart (Jul 12, 2004)

Hey Folks,

Tim posted this as a quote from the eskrima digest. I believe the bolded parts are actually from a guy named David Eke and they're responses to another person's statements. I'd have to look through the old ED for who exactly David responded to. It's from  Eskrima digest Vol 11 #272. It's an interesting thread surrounding Modern Arnis Jungle Fighting Bolos and whether or not it's made up or authentic.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 12, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> It's an interesting thread surrounding Modern Arnis Jungle Fighting Bolos and whether or not it's made up or authentic.



That's not what I'm trying to say, but Bart got the idea. There are a couple of interesting topics in this thread that we could discuss.


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> That's not what I'm trying to say, but Bart got the idea. There are a couple of interesting topics in this thread that we could discuss.


I would still like to know the two authors that you are taking excerpts from to start this discussion.  Citation would help with context.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I would still like to know the two authors that you are taking excerpts from to start this discussion.  Citation would help with context.



Then don't post or look in the E-digest archive.

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/newdigests/v11.n272.txt

 :whip:  :btg:  :flushed:


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Then don't post or look in the E-digest archive.
> 
> http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/newdigests/v11.n272.txt
> 
> :whip: :btg: :flushed:


I don't understand this comment, but I did check out the referenced archive.  Dave posted his comments, but who wrote the he is responding to when he posted?


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## bart (Jul 12, 2004)

Hey Folks,

Before we get too heated, here are the orginal posts that started this thread in the ED along with links so you can view them in their orginal form. It's got some interesting points that are good for discussion specifically concerning Modern Arnis. Specifically of interest to me is the assertion that deke@cathedral.qld.edu.au (no name in the post) makes in the second post about the "real history of Modern Arnis" in concern to the Bram Frank's Bolo origins. 


This is the orginal post from Dan Anderson in which he reviews Bram Frank's video on Jungle Bolos in Modern Arnis:

click to see 




> Message: 6
> From: "Danny Anderson" <dannyleeanderson@hotmail.com>
> To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
> Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2004 23:59:22 +0000
> ...



This is the post to which David Eke responds which Tim put on MT:

click to see 



> Message: 4
> To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net
> From: <deke@cathedral.qld.edu.au>
> Date: Sun,  4 Jul 2004 00:04:26 +1000 (EST)
> ...



The discussion on the ED was a little eclipsed by some other topics and may have garnered more interest if the list was quieter when it hit the scene.


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> Hey Folks,
> 
> Before we get too heated, here are the orginal posts that started this thread in the ED along with links so you can view them in their orginal form. It's got some interesting points that are good for discussion specifically concerning Modern Arnis. Specifically of interest to me is the assertion that deke@cathedral.qld.edu.au (no name in the post) makes in the second post about the "real history of Modern Arnis" in concern to the Bram Frank's Bolo origins.
> 
> ...


So, is Dave Eke responding to Dan Anderson or is it someone else?


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## Guro Harold (Jul 12, 2004)

Mod: Note:

Hey Guys,

The Eskrima Digest is copyrighted material so we cannot liberally cut and paste its content here.

My suggestion is for someone to do as Bart had and gather all relavent links for those who do not subscribe to E-Digest to get up to speed.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## bart (Jul 12, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> So, is Dave Eke responding to Dan Anderson or is it someone else?



He's responding to both Dan and Deke and then one other person in the thread now that I look at it again. David doesn't really cite the person but just includes their words and writes his response below. I found the point of contention in the ED thread to be one surrounding the question as to whether the origins of Modern Arnis are from Balintawak, Karate, or from Remy's uncles and grandfathers as is apparently the assertion in Bram Frank's DVD. It seems likely to me that it may be all three as much as any single source. I do have to say that there is no such thing as a "jungle bolo" in my experience. A bolo is all purpose and is at home cutting jungle brush just as much as it is at getting buko juice or getting the chicken ready for dinner or taking care of the occasional home invasion robber. A bolo is a bolo is a bolo.


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## Cruentus (Jul 12, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Mod: Note:
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> ...



I think you can, as long as you credit the source.


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> He's responding to both Dan and Deke and then one other person in the thread now that I look at it again. David doesn't really cite the person but just includes their words and writes his response below. I found the point of contention in the ED thread to be one surrounding the question as to whether the origins of Modern Arnis are from Balintawak, Karate, or from Remy's uncles and grandfathers as is apparently the assertion in Bram Frank's DVD. It seems likely to me that it may be all three as much as any single source


I'd say all the influences are present in different proportions depending on when/where you trained with him.

I have been going through the yellow book again recently and notice that the stick disarms are really disarms in a technical sense because they are motions for the purpose of taking away the opponents arms.  Whereas, the freestyle blade disarms in the very next section aren't really disarms as much as defense.  I think there are only two of the seven where RP actually 'disarms' the weapon and doesn't just redirect/control the weapon as he lays the smackdown on the feeder.  It may be the distance for the fotos too, but the movements seem more shotokan/karate-ish to me than FMA/fluid.  This is not a quality judgement, just a stylistic difference observation.


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## Guro Harold (Jul 12, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> I think you can, as long as you credit the source.



There might be some limit without permission.

Try to copy something off of starwars.com on your website, credit them and see what happens!!! :jedi1:  :jediduel:  :xwing:


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> There might be some limit without permission.
> 
> Try to copy something off of starwars.com on your website, credit them and see what happens!!! :jedi1: :jediduel: :xwing:


Referencial use is acceptable.  Just saying "Hey I saw this on X and wonder what you think of it" for discussion isn't a problem.

When you start cutting and pasteing from say the SW's example and implying and association with them to make a profit you will find some trouble.  If you really try to pull of the "unofficial spokesman" status (like in the Wendy's commercial campaign) by using tons of images and texts, regardless of citation, you will be in trouble.


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## Cruentus (Jul 12, 2004)

Since this is one of the discussions, for more talk about the "agricultural bolo" vs. the "fighting bolo," see here: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15677

 :asian: 

Paul


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## Cebu West (Jul 12, 2004)

I just recently purchased a pinuti bolo from Kris Cutlery in California. It looks very similar to the one in the first photo of the soldier.
Here is the photo and the write up from their web site.

http://www.kriscutlery.com/philippine/index_pinuti.html

By the way, this is an awesome weapon.

SAL


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## Emptyglass (Jul 12, 2004)

Cebu West said:
			
		

> I just recently purchased a pinuti bolo from Kris Cutlery in California. It looks very similar to the one in the first photo of the soldier.
> Here is the photo and the write up from their web site.
> 
> http://www.kriscutlery.com/philippine/index_pinuti.html
> ...



Hi Sal:

Kris Cutlery does sell some nice stuff. There is a book (or series of books) waiting to be written on the weapons of the Philippine Islands and a comprehensive examination of them could be a lifelong pursuit if the researcher was interested in doing proper documentation. Don Draeger did a seminal work on the weapons of Indonesia and there are a great many similarities between the implements in his book (Weapons and Fighting Arts of Indonesia) and the weapons I've seen from the Philippines.

In regards to the Pinuti, it looks a bit longer than the jungle bolo but definitely has a similar design. It also looks like it has a false edge on the back as well.

Rich Curren


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## Cebu West (Jul 12, 2004)

One glaring difference between Modern Arnis and Balintawak is the grabbing and trapping done in MA and not in Balintawak. I was told that they were seldom used in the PI and Professor took advantage of this to defeat many opponents. I don't remember who said this to me. 

I also remember the Professor showing Balintawak moves at seminars. He would start by demonstrating a Modern Arnis technique and by the time he was done he would say, "But you can also do this, but we are not doing that now." I always tried to watch for that stuff. That was the stuff not meant for the seminar, but it probably was where the Modern Arnis technique originated. It was nasty, quick and right to the point. A game ender. Not good for the seminar crowd but great stuff for those who picked up on them.

SAL


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 12, 2004)

Cebu West said:
			
		

> One glaring difference between Modern Arnis and Balintawak is the grabbing and trapping done in MA and not in Balintawak. I was told that they were seldom used in the PI and Professor took advantage of this to defeat many opponents. I don't remember who said this to me.
> 
> I also remember the Professor showing Balintawak moves at seminars. He would start by demonstrating a Modern Arnis technique and by the time he was done he would say, "But you can also do this, but we are not doing that now." I always tried to watch for that stuff. That was the stuff not meant for the seminar, but it probably was where the Modern Arnis technique originated. It was nasty, quick and right to the point. A game ender. Not good for the seminar crowd but great stuff for those who picked up on them.
> 
> SAL



Sal et al,

I agree from the Lineage of Balintawak I have that there is no grabbing and that the techniques taught are to counter grabs. Where as Modern Arnis has grabbing. Although there are family trees of Balintawak that have put in Grabbing, so some would disagree with you, on the differences. Knowing you might have heard it from me or Tim, therefore the comments about Balintawak not grabbing.


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Sal et al,
> 
> I agree from the Lineage of Balintawak I have that there is no grabbing and that the techniques taught are to counter grabs. Where as Modern Arnis has grabbing. Although there are family trees of Balintawak that have put in Grabbing, so some would disagree with you, on the differences. Knowing you might have heard it from me or Tim, therefore the comments about Balintawak not grabbing.


Bobby Taboada's grouped version has some grabbing/trapping in the system.  There is a whole series of trap/grab give and takes based on 4 count Block Check Counter.  Also, in the weapon semi advance applications there is some grabbing and pulling as timing disruption and off balancing techniques.  As Rich as mentioned there are some counter grabbing techniques as well.

By no means are these comprehensive 'grappling'  portions of the grouped version of Balitawak that Bobby puts forth but they are effective binding motions that would limit/eliminate the stick long enought to open gaps in play.

Interestingly enough, in the grouping sets that Bobby uses there are many opportunities for the feeder/senior student/instructor to work on empty hand on stick binding/grabbing and rhythmn breakers.  Both sides get something from the drills.

Others have put forth the notion that Tapi/Tapi was a re-introduction of Cuentada that RP used in Balitawak training.  But, there seems to be a semi structured/'play' game in most FMA stick systems.  My interest gets peaked when I notice the similarities to Euro training structures that Arnis/Escrima type arts have.  Somewhere I remember reading that even the origins of Doce Pares founders had an imprisoned french fencer as an influence...or was that Pilates.  Seriously though there was mention of a senior Seveerda serving a prison sentence with a Frenchman who may have shown him some fencing.

I imagine there have been multiple euro/FMA exchanges throughout history though.  Considering the fall of interest in FMA and the upsurge of Euro/Japanese/Chinese arts pre=Modern Arnis, I imagine the role models of financial and cultural success were those who adopted euro culture.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Bobby Taboada's grouped version has some grabbing/trapping in the system.  There is a whole series of trap/grab give and takes based on 4 count Block Check Counter.  Also, in the weapon semi advance applications there is some grabbing and pulling as timing disruption and off balancing techniques.  As Rich as mentioned there are some counter grabbing techniques as well.



Check out the Eskrima Digest and a recent post in the last two days by Uncle Rocky of Modern Arnis and Balintawak.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> By no means are these comprehensive 'grappling'  portions of the grouped version of Balitawak that Bobby puts forth but they are effective binding motions that would limit/eliminate the stick long enought to open gaps in play.



Yes, this is where some people get picky and state that since it is grouped it has been changed and therfore not the true Balintawak. Either way, I say check them out and see what everyone has to offer.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Interestingly enough, in the grouping sets that Bobby uses there are many opportunities for the feeder/senior student/instructor to work on empty hand on stick binding/grabbing and rhythmn breakers.  Both sides get something from the drills.



Hmmmm, I wonder if this the Senior of the two being the average 'Joe' off the street with some Stick Training to allow the junior to practice? or are these actually required techniques for the system? Not know the techniques in question, I could imagine both being true.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Others have put forth the notion that Tapi/Tapi was a re-introduction of Cuentada that RP used in Balitawak training.  But, there seems to be a semi structured/'play' game in most FMA stick systems.  My interest gets peaked when I notice the similarities to Euro training structures that Arnis/Escrima type arts have.  Somewhere I remember reading that even the origins of Doce Pares founders had an imprisoned french fencer as an influence...or was that Pilates.  Seriously though there was mention of a senior Seveerda serving a prison sentence with a Frenchman who may have shown him some fencing.



Cuentada is the highest stage or development in Balintawak. This is true. It does mean counting in direct translation, I believe. Yet, in this context it means you are able to hit your opponent where you desire too, and that you can manipulate your opponent to react in a fashion to allow you to obtain your desired strike.  I do not think that Tapi-Tapi is this stage. I do think that of you were to train Tapi-Tapi or Semi Sparring or Solo Baston Sparring, or ..., that you could get there eventually. This means that the drill itself is not same as Cuentada. It is when people have been able to work the drill and their opponent in a free format that allows them to obtain their desired goal, that I would say it might be the same. :asian:




			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> I imagine there have been multiple euro/FMA exchanges throughout history though.  Considering the fall of interest in FMA and the upsurge of Euro/Japanese/Chinese arts pre=Modern Arnis, I imagine the role models of financial and cultural success were those who adopted euro culture.



A new thread? or see the points that Tulisan aka Paul has made about the Sabre and the Bolo in anther thread on Bolo's.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 13, 2004)

Going back to the original topic of this thread, I want to clarify a few things.  It was my post in Eskrima Digest that got the response and that was because of a review of Bram's bolo DVD I posted.

Bram got from Remy two bolos, one which belonged to Jose Presas and one which belonged to Berong Presas.  They were used in jungle fighting, hence the term "jungle bolo."  I do not know (and didn't ask) if there is a proper noun called "jungle bolo."  The ones he got were the Presas family bolos.  Jose, Berong and Remy all taught the Bolo Battalion.  This is backed up and verified by Roland Dantes, who also taught the Bolo Battallion with Remy.

Bram makes the distinction that the bolo for jungle fighting has the pointed end rather than the flatter end so that one can use the tip as well.

I'm finding that the blade has more to do with Modern Arnis roots and technique than what has stresseed previously.  Figure this in the equation:
_"What should be emphasized, however, is the fact that the cane is only for practice purposes for it's basically less lethal in nature.  For in actual combat, the standard weapon is still the bolo or any bladed weapon which is more suitable and convenient for this kind of combat technique." (p. 9, Modern Arnis Philippine Martial Art "Stick Fighting" by Remy Presas, 1974)_

Look at the blades shown on page 5 in _The Practical Art Of Eskrima (Remy Presas, copyright 1976, 1st printing 1980)_, under the heading of "Assorted bladed weapons used in Eskrima," the blades shown are much like the Presas bolo and have the tapered tips for stabbing and ripping.  If you look at the bolo on page 13 of Dan Inosanto's book _The Filipino Martial Arts_ you will see that it also has a tapered end.  The same is in Rey Galang's translation of Placido Yambao's _Mga Karunungan Sa Larong Arnis._  You see the original photos with Placido Yambao with a blade that, again, tapers at the end.  I will stop going through my FMA books as I think you'll get my point.

Modern Arnis US (my term) is very stick oriented.  From my recent research I am finding out that Modern Arnis PI (my term) has much more blade orientation than Modern Arnis US.

David Eke is responding first to me and then to David Fogge, who is a student of Roland Dantes in Australia.

Bart posted 





> *1.* I found the point of contention in the ED thread to be one surrounding the question as to whether the origins of Modern Arnis are from Balintawak, Karate, or from Remy's uncles and grandfathers as is apparently the assertion in Bram Frank's DVD. It seems likely to me that it may be all three as much as any single source. *2.* I do have to say that there is no such thing as a "jungle bolo" in my experience. A bolo is all purpose and is at home cutting jungle brush just as much as it is at getting buko juice or getting the chicken ready for dinner or taking care of the occasional home invasion robber. A bolo is a bolo is a bolo.



1.  Yes.  The origins of Modern Arnis are broad based.  RP's balintawak training came to the foreground when someone speeded up on him or surprised him, from what I saw.  A lot of his striking looks like it came from standard karate and his locking was basic judo/jujutsu _heavily_ influenced by Small Circle Ju-Jitsu.

2.  I couldn't say anything on that one way or another as I am _not_ "bolo educated."  You'd have to talk to Bram there.  That being said I will offer an uneducated viewpoint - perhaps the bolo and machete are being lumped together as the same thing hence the "confusion" or "topic controversy"?

Tim,
You originally started  this thread but I haven't seen your viewpoint posted yet.  What do you think about all this?  Also, what does "Datu Puti" mean?

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan...awsome post. Now...copy the whole thing and paste it over in my new thread on the topic!  :rofl:  :cheers: 

Also...Datu Puti roughly translates too "White Datu."

heh....reminds me of the Jean-claude movie "the kickboxer" where the crowd started chanting, "Nok Sui Kow!" or "White warrior!" Man...you should see Tim jump up and do the splits on 2 counter-tops!  :roflmao:


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## loki09789 (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Also, what does "Datu Puti" mean?
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


The simplest transliteration would be "White Chieftain."

Rich,

As far as the Bk, authentic/true issue.  Not interested.  Bobby's stuff is good to go, recognzied and respected by Bk seniors/peers and linked directly to GGM Bacon, partially by direct instruction with GM Bobby and partially by instruction under a few of GGM Bacon's GM's/Senior students.

It is a funny story, but GM Bobby tells the story of how he was asked to do a YMCA demo with his instructor and during the demo, his instructor could not get through his defense and counter and had to resort to binding/stick grabbing to create the gap.  So, I would say that the stick binding stuff is actually part of the original Bk stuff, just taught differently through the grouped/ungrouped approaches.


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## Dan Anderson (Jul 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Others have put forth the notion that Tapi/Tapi was a re-introduction of Cuentada that RP used in Balitawak training.


Hi Paul,

From training with Manong Ted I think the original tapi-tapi (1-12 back and forth drill) was more of a RP variant of abecedario.  Then the current day tapi-tapi (the capture-bait-capture coming from the single sinawali set up) is more of a RP seguidas.  The cuentada, as I understand it, is totally free form.  The tapi-tapi is not.  It is strictly close to medium quarters and by definition would not fit the concept of cuentada.

As to the differences between GM Taboada's balintawak and Manong Ted's balintawak (and whoever else's we want to insert here), from person to person there will be differences and if someone along the way wants to add, change,vary and so forth, it'll happen.  I'm studying with Manong Ted and I am satisfied.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Cruentus (Jul 13, 2004)

Corridas: This is the free form; generally where all Manongs Teds students learn the majority of the techniques, and the solutions to problems. The meat and potatoes, if you will, however, the Corridas is the free form or free sparring. Quote Manong, "You don't KNOW what I am going to do!"

Cuentadas: You are free sparring, but it is much more then that. You are leading your opponent through the movements so you can strike a particular spot, or do a particular technique. This demonstrates the ultimate control over the encounter.

This is Manong Teds/Anciongs definition, anyways.

Just thought I'd clear that up.

PAUL


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## loki09789 (Jul 13, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Corridas: This is the free form; generally where all Manongs Teds students learn the majority of the techniques, and the solutions to problems. The meat and potatoes, if you will, however, the Corridas is the free form or free sparring. Quote Manong, "You don't KNOW what I am going to do!"
> 
> Cuentadas: You are free sparring, but it is much more then that. You are leading your opponent through the movements so you can strike a particular spot, or do a particular technique. This demonstrates the ultimate control over the encounter.
> 
> ...


I think the inter/intra definitions are the root of the problem, not the actions/drills themselves.

Within MA alone, in the yellow book there is a "give and take" drill that starts with a forehand strike, but is the same thing as what some have called "Sombrada" and starts with an overhead strike....

Between the grouped/ungrouped systems there will be terms that mean the same motion but will be described/defined differently.  Some of it comes from the problem of the languaga issue between Tagalog/English and some of it is stylistic.  The 'grouped' system seems, not better or worse or more or less 'authentic' simply structure the essential material of Balitawak into 'groups', sets, drills or what ever.  They work better for group instruction, 'homework' and thematic/goal instruction.  The ungrouped system is fine for private lessons and regular direct instruction....

From watching Sam Buot on video and others on streaming video/pictures where the rubber meets the road, they all move very similarly but with individualised 'flavors' regardless of the instructional model.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 13, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> The simplest transliteration would be "White Chieftain."
> 
> Rich,
> 
> ...




Paul, once again I think people are making more than I am trying to say.

I never stated that GM Bobby did not train with GM Bacon. Nor did I state what he had was not good. I said to check him out, whcih means to go learn from him if you can.

There are clips in Balintawak to break a timing, yes. Yet this is momentary and not a grab. I know subtle difference that many will not see nor care about. As to the grouped and modifed, versions, yes they are just that grouped and modified. Can people get the same end result, I would have to answer yes. As to the Ungrouped, or original or traditional or what ever, I agree that grabs are done as by 'Juan' so the student can learn the counters.  I also agree that clips and other techniques to break the opponents timing are made, yet they are not grabs if done properly. And you can accomplish the same thing as with the grouped and modified versions. 

There was no disrespect meant to anyone of the different groups out there.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 13, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> There are clips in Balintawak to break a timing, yes. Yet this is momentary and not a grab. I know subtle difference that many will not see nor care about. QUOTE]
> 
> Yes, but this is one amigo who cares about it.  This one subtlety has made a major impact on my Modern Arnis.  I seldom grab a cane anymore.  Or at least I grab a lot less.
> 
> ...


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 13, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> PS - Tim, no word from you yet.




The White Chief thinks he did a good job with starting this thread and will be posting tomorrow. Now it is time for rest.

artyon:


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 13, 2004)

bart said:
			
		

> He's responding to both Dan and Deke and then one other person in the thread now that I look at it again. David doesn't really cite the person but just includes their words and writes his response below.


Okay, I think the confusion of who authored what portion of the copy was because Tim never really identified or explained who was saying what. Since he was the author of the thread topic, I was thinking he was the author of the bolded section without any other guidance to work from. Is Tim the author of any of the text copy?

Also there was talk some kind of challenge match with MoroMoro in the Phillipines talked about on MT that would have recently taken place or would be taking place soon so the PI trip talk would have made sense too. Though the mention of multiple trips was confusing.

I haven't noticed any pictures from PI on the Horizon/WMAA website or links, so I am assuming that it still in the future? Moromoro no longer posts on MT so I haven't been able to ask him.


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 13, 2004)

Something from Rick Mitchell on the topic:

Does anyone here have contacts in PI to get info on the "Bolo Unit" for any further clarification?
*Tested Tough*

*The Fearsome Fighting Blades of the Philippines *

_*by Rick Mitchell *_




*[size=-1]Philippine fighting blades became famous when one of them (a kampilan) felled Captain Ferdinand Magellan (right). [/size]*_Knife sharpens on stone;
Man sharpens on man.
A long perilous road tests the horse; 
A long perilous journey tests the man.
-Chinese Adage
_

_April 27, 1521, Mactan Island, Philippines-_After most of his men had deserted him in the heat of battle, a native warrior threw a bamboo spear in Magellan's face. Magellan immediately thrust his lance into the warrior's breast and left it there. He then reached for his sword, but was only able to pull it out halfway from its sheath because his right arm was wounded. While standing knee deep in the surf, Magellan tried to reposition himself. 





 However, his feet were mired in mud and it was difficult for him to move. A charging warrior slashed and nearly severed Magellan's left leg with a large, heavy sword called a kampilan. Magellan fell face forward into the water and, in the words of the famous historian Pigafetta, who was by his side, " . . . they killed our mirror, our light, our comfort and true guide. " So died Captain-General Ferdinand Magellan at the flashing hands of Filipino warriors and their fighting blades. 





 Being true to himself and his community, the mighty chieftain of Mactan, Lapu Lapu, fought and defeated the Spaniards and refused to give up Magellan's body for all the riches in the world. He made the dead captain's burial on Mactan Island a perpetual monument of the Filipino's first successful encounter with formidable foreign invaders. 





 The conquistador's' retreat back to Spain was a tribute to the fighting prowess of Filipino warriors and their fighting blades. So impressed with this new fighting style and weaponry, they named it escrima (skirmish) after their own style of Spanish fencing. 


[size=+2]Technique #1[/size]Modern arnis founder Remy *Presas* (left) demonstrates a technique with a *jungle **bolo*. As the attack comes in (1), *Presas* first blocks it (2) with his blade and grabs the wrist of his attacker (3). *Presas* then ends the battle with two stabs of his own (4-6). 







 At the time of this bloody battle, the Philippine Archipelago of over 7,700 islands was divided into a hodgepodge of politically independent communities known as barangays. Each barangay produced a different dialect. It was also each person's responsibility to defend his own community so that it would become stronger. To further this goal, self-defense systems were encouraged. Forms of kali (large bladed weapons fighting) and dumog (Filipino native wrestling) were taught to protect barangays from pirates or foreign invaders. 





 The Spanish eventually returned to the Philippines in 1564. Led by Miguel Lopez de Legspi, they acquired firm control over most barangays by force of arms and diplomatic skill. With Spanish rule secured, Filipinos were made slaves and a ban was put on the practice of kali and the carrying of fighting blades. 





 In spite of this prohibition, the Filipinos continued the practice of kali secretly, during the late hours of the night and while performing in dances and moro-moro stage plays. During moro-moro performances, when the Filipino slaves manipulated the colorful harnesses of their costumes, they were actually practicing kali under the unaware eyes of the Spanish overlords. The newly disguised, widely used, term for their fighting arts became arnis de marzo (harness of the hand), or simply arnis. In the southern Philippines, the proud, patriotic and fiercely independent Moros (Muslim Filipinos) mixed arnis and courage and were never conquered by the Spanish. Hence, they were able to continue the growth and development of weapons and fighting This was greatly influenced by the continual flood of aggressive cultures with superior weaponry, who infiltrated into the archipelago, especially the Malayans, who settled in the mountain slopes in 200 B.C. 





 Three basic types of bladed weapons commonly seen in Moroland are the barong, kampilan and kris. The barong is a Sulu fighting sword, with a heavy, single-edged leaf-shaped blade approximately 18 inches long. The back of the blade is thicker than any other blade of the southern Philippines, giving it the slashing weight needed to compensate for its shortness. The hilt is made of wood, silver, ivory or black horn, and is frequently formed in the shape of an exotic bird or animal. 





 The kampiian, common in Mindanao, is a large and heavy sword that needs to be handled with both hands. It is considered to be in the same class as the cutlass or Japanese samurai sword because of its great size, weight and craftsmanship. The blade is single-edged, has a definite sharp point, is wider near the tip and narrows progressively toward the hilt. Sometimes the kampilan has a little horn-like projection just opposite the point, making the blade appear double-pointed. The kampilan's handle is wrapped with a fibrous material like the handle of the samurai sword and its butt end often resembles the open jaws of a crocodile. It has been described as "a weapon made for splitting the body from top to toe." Some people say that the kampilan was Lapu Lapu's favorite weapon. 


[size=+2]Technique #2[/size]Clutching a *bolo* and a *jungle **bolo*, *Presas* stops another attack. This time he blocks downard (1&2), gains control (3) and forces the attacker's blade away (4) so he can get a clean shot (5). 






 The kris is a Malayan dagger with either a straight or wavy blade. The blades are always double-edged and vary in lengths from five to 30 inches. Blades found in Malaysia are sharply pointed, but seldom taper to a sharp point in Sulu and Mindanao. The kris has a long history of complicated structural features, decoration and significance. 





 The Moros use the kris and kampilan to practice their fighting technique in a traditional dance called silat. They also show a preference for the karasaik (spear) and frequently use it along with a circular shield made of wood and decorated with metal and carvings. 





 To the Moros, the carrying of a blade is a sign of personal honor and those who go without their blade feel undressed. Each blade, therefore, is used to suit individual tastes and requirements. Some of the other blades found in Moroland include the punal, panabas, pira, laring, lahot, and utak. 





 These various fighting blades were used by Juramentados (Filipino Muslims who took religious vows to kill as many Spanish-Christian soldiers as possible) during the "Moro Wars," which lasted through more than 300 years of Spanish domination and carried over into the American occupation of the Philippines, beginning in the early 1900s. 





 At first, American firepower was insufficient to stop the flashing, slashing blades of the feared Juramentado frenzy, even at point-blank range! As a result, the U.S. Army was forced to reissue its mothballed single-action Colt 45 (long Colt) revolvers, in place of the .38 caliber revolvers used by the American forces in the Philippines. This led to the eventual design of the Colt 45 ACO (automatic Colt pistol) in the Philippines and elsewhere. 





 Besides the Moros of the southern Philippines, pagan tribes, loosely called Igorot, lived in the mountainous interior of the northern Philippines and also retained their independence. For the Igorot, head-hunting was an ancient rite intensely practiced during the Spanish regime. Head-hunting expeditions usually followed the death of native kinsmen. When an unsuspecting victim was within range, a head-hunter would use the hook on the back edge of the cutting blade of his ax to snag the victim's head toward himself. In a swift follow-up, he or another headhunter would then decapitate the victim by using the concave cutting edge of a head ax. To the Igorot, head-hunting was synonymous with warfare and surely, plenty of Spanish heads watched over their native huts. 





 In 1941, General Yamashita promised the Emperor of Japan that Japanese Imperial Forces would seize all of Southeast Asia for their "Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere." The Japanese proceeded to quickly swallow up all of Southeast Asia-except for the Philippines. General Douglas MacArthur instructed the Philippine troops to resist the enemy at the mountainous peninsula of Bataan and at the small fortress island of Corregidor until he returned from Australia with reinforcements and supplies. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*[size=-1]For centuries, the flashy fighting knives of the Philippines meant terror to those who had to fight against them. Some of those knives Included the kris (left to right in order), bolo machete, bolo, jungle bolo and machete. [/size]*





 Although the U.S. had the authority to dictate political and military strategy, Filipinos were allowed to use their knowledge and ability in arnis, and they in turn taught it to American bayonet instructors. Long, broad-pointed and single-edged *bolo* knives (similar to a machete, but usually shorter) were issued to Filipino platoons to be used both as a hand weapon and as a bayonet, when affixed to their Springfield or Garand rifles. 





 Modern arnis founder and grandmaster Remy *Presas*' uncle, Berong *Presas*, was a member of the Filipino Scouts and an instructor for a *bolo* battalion that carried *jungle* bolos when sent out on special assignments. *Jungle* bolos have sharper points, narrower and thinner blades and are lighter in weight than standard bolos knives. They are designed for quickness, as many Japanese came to find out. A frequently used strategy of these Filipino guerrillas was to steal forth at night and use their bolos to decapitate the sleeping enemy or, with a savage surge of the blade, thrust an unaware sentry into the waiting arms of his emperor. Melting back into the *jungle*, they hid during the daytime as Japanese patrols searched in vain. Many of the tactics used in the Vietnam War were pattered after Filipino strategies of guerrilla fighting. 





 Shortly after the war in the Pacific, Philippine independence was restored and many Filipinos migrated to the United States, settling mostly in California and Hawaii. Some of them began teaching their traditional knowledge of arnis to family, friends and selected students residing in their communities. 





 Keeping up with the long tradition of changing times and circumstances, professor Remy *Presas* has taken hundreds of traditional forms of arnis and other fighting arts indigenous to other cultures, such as karate, judo, kenpo, jujitsu, etc., and honed them into a system he calls "modern arnis." 





 In recent years, *Presas* brought modern arnis to the U.S. and other countries. He is promoting modern arnis not only to harness the environment, but to share the newness of arnis' long, perilous and primitive journey. A journey that has courageously cut its way through time with some of the best bladed weapons every made, the Filipino fighting knives. 

For more information on modern arnis read Ohara Publications' _Modern Arnis: The Filipino Art of Stick Fighting, _by Remy Persas _About the Author: Rick Mitchell is a Southern-California-based martial artist and freelance writer. This is his first contribution to M.A. WEAPONS._


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 14, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> *1. *Is Tim the author of any of the text copy?
> 
> *2. *Also there was talk some kind of challenge match with MoroMoro in the Phillipines talked about on MT that would have recently taken place or would be taking place soon so the PI trip talk would have made sense too. Though the mention of multiple trips was confusing.
> 
> I haven't noticed any pictures from PI on the Horizon/WMAA website or links, so I am assuming that it still in the future? Moromoro no longer posts on MT so I haven't been able to ask him.



Hi Paul,

1.  No.  Tim authored none of it.
2.  Waaaaaaay off topic.  Personally, I am curious about the challenge myself.  I talked to Tim recently and he told me that he and Rick Manglinong are going to the PI in springtime 2005.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 14, 2004)

MoroMoro was banned from MT a while ago due to his antagonistic manners.  From what I can tell, he's been banned from at least 6 other boards as well, all for the same reasons.  Not a good start for a teenager looking to make a name for himself.


----------



## Guro Harold (Jul 14, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Not a good start for a teenager looking to make a name for himself.



It didn't show from his antics, but I cannot remember where he posted nor which board he posted it one but, but wasn't MoroMoro a graduate student studying abroad in Australia?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 14, 2004)

I've heard from a few folks that his real age was late teens.  Somewhere between 17-19 I think. I don't remember the rest...its been a while.


----------



## Cruentus (Jul 14, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> 2.  Waaaaaaay off topic.  Personally, I am curious about the challenge myself.  I talked to Tim recently and he told me that he and Rick Manglinong are going to the PI in springtime 2005.



For a little history on the "infamous fuedal challange" see here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8053&page=5&pp=15

A few posts down Datu Puti states it, but it continues to the next page. You will see on the next page where moromoro trys to arrange it so that they fight at a tournament.  I can hear the crowd now..."Nok Su Kow! Nok Su Kow!" while Jean-Tim Van Hartman drops into the splits and punches Moro-ton-po right in the nutz.....oh, wait. Wrong movie. In this film they chant "Dat-u-puti! Dat-u-puti!"  :rofl: 

O.K...do you want to know what will seriously happened? Big fat nothing. Tim will go down there to visit and train, and even if he contacts this clown, I get the feeling that he won't even show for a meeting.

Oh...I believe that moro's instructor is legit...but I believe that moro is nothing more then a barking lap dog.

Me's done with this dead horse...  :deadhorse

 :ultracool


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 14, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Paul,
> 
> 1. No. Tim authored none of it.
> 2. Waaaaaaay off topic. Personally, I am curious about the challenge myself. I talked to Tim recently and he told me that he and Rick Manglinong are going to the PI in springtime 2005.
> ...


1. Thanks for the info
2.Just a tangental question that came to me as I was writing.  The posts mentioned PI travels and Tim mentioned this PI trip business, it made some confusion in the way he posted.


----------



## Flatlander (Jul 14, 2004)

*Tulisan Janulis!*  Thank you for the link - what an entertaining thread!


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 15, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> The White Chief thinks he did a good job with starting this thread and will be posting tomorrow. Now it is time for rest.
> 
> artyon:


"The sun 'll come out tomorrow, betcher bottom dollar that tomorrow there'll be sun..."

You must have been REALLY tired, still no post.

Honor us, Oh Great Chief, with your white words...no, that's not right.

Honor us, Oh Great White, with your chief words...that's better, no wait.

Honor us, Oh White Chief, with your great words...Now they all look wrong, even when it's correct.

Maybe I'm the one who needs more rest


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Maybe I'm the one who needs more rest



No, just a personality.

PS I'm busy with the MT Camp this weekend. I'll post when I get a chance. :whip:


----------



## Guro Harold (Jul 15, 2004)

Mod note:

Let's please get back to topic.

Palusut
MT Mod


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 15, 2004)

Paaaaaauuuuuuuullllllllllllllllll,

Come on.  That's Hartman humor.  Lighten up a bit.  I know his humor can piss people off but let him speak his mind ("post his mind?" - what a concept) and then get pissed if the situation calls for it.  

Also, an observation point here - the mods are shooting from the hip when it even looks like there might be a flame war starting.  Ever since the Norshadow thing the pendulum has swung the other way (from too lenient and letting things get too far to very strict and firing pre-emptive strikes).  IF you want your voice to be heard, watch how you put it.  You might get bounced for a week.  I'm not a mod.  If I were I'd suspend EVERYONE who didn't agree with me.  MT would close its Modern Arnis section within a week if that happened. 

On a personal note, I wouldn't like to see that as you are an eloquent writer and your factual presentations are usually first rate.  To get those banned would be a shame.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Dieter (Jul 15, 2004)

Taken from the text posted by Paul R. Martin:



> The conquistador's' retreat back to Spain was a tribute to the fighting prowess of Filipino warriors and their fighting blades. So impressed with this new fighting style and weaponry,....




Just for reference: 

There were approximately 1500 filipinos fighting under Lapu-Lapu against roughly 70 spanish conquistadores....

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 15, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> No, just a personality.
> 
> PS I'm busy with the MT Camp this weekend. I'll post when I get a chance. :whip:


I've posted on topic. Used facts and reasonable theories. I've articulated clearly, to a degree, on this and the Agri/fighting bolo thread. 

I make a joke that piggybacks off of a joking tone from your royal 'we'/third person reference - which I took to be humorous - and I get this? Wow. 

I would appreciate some demonstrative control of the personal attacks.

Not looking for a suspension, just trying to get this thread exposure on the "new post list" again AND continue a LIGHT tone that was already set with your "White Chief" post...... you posted on the memorial thread and elsewhere between your last post here to now so I was playing.

I guess you really do need some rest.

To Dan and all:

Sorry for the poor timing/delivery of a joke, guess the water isn't under the bridge, so I will rein in the humor....


----------



## Guro Harold (Jul 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I've posted on topic. Used facts and reasonable theories. I've articulated clearly, to a degree, on this and the Agri/fighting bolo thread.
> 
> I make a joke that piggybacks off of a joking tone from your royal 'we'/third person reference - which I took to be humorous - and I get this? Wow.
> 
> ...



I don't recall anyone receiving a warning from staff, just a request for us to get back to topic.

Thanks,

Harold


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 15, 2004)

Dieter said:
			
		

> Taken from the text posted by Paul R. Martin:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, they were suppose to be outnumbered.  THey were more of an expedition force than an occupational armada.  Not to mention that there was probably some very unhealthy - possibly scurvy ridden - spanish sailors trying to repel a hord of reasonably well fed/rested tribesmen.

There might have been some assumptions about firearms/cultural superiority on the part of the Spanish.  

OR, more likely, the article is partly promotional/evangelical and trying to create/improve the fighting reputaiton of the PI weapons and martial arts.

My purpose of was really to draw attention to the referencial use of the term "Jungle Bolo" by Rick Mitchell in the article and his citation of RP's book.  Mr. Mitchell worked extensively with RP and since RP is the demonstrator in the photos; I would guess that he approved the terms and ideas in it.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 15, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> I've posted on topic. Used facts and reasonable theories. I've articulated clearly, to a degree, on this and the Agri/fighting bolo thread.
> 
> I make a joke that piggybacks off of a joking tone from your royal 'we'/third person reference - which I took to be humorous - and I get this? Wow.
> 
> ...



*Thanks, Paul.*  You can't see the look on someone's face or the sound of their voice on the net.  It looks like I read your post wrong.  My apologies.  
Yours,
Dan


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 15, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Also, an observation point here - the mods are shooting from the hip when it even looks like there might be a flame war starting. Ever since the Norshadow thing the pendulum has swung the other way (from too lenient and letting things get too far to very strict and firing pre-emptive strikes). IF you want your voice to be heard, watch how you put it. You might get bounced for a week. I'm not a mod. If I were I'd suspend EVERYONE who didn't agree with me. MT would close its Modern Arnis section within a week if that happened.


Dan,
  We are discussing your concerns.  We went from having little moderation to having 6+ sets of eyes in here. It will take a little time for everyone to 'regain balance' as it were. 

If there are specifics, (anyone) please feel free to contact me and Seig directly, outside of this thread.

Thanks. 

-Bob


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 15, 2004)

but.. but..but .. I  like to crack the whip  :whip:

It's summer.. people are Hot and cranky and prone to jump the gun.. :shrug:

I need a vacation ~!!

~Me


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 15, 2004)

*Bob*,

No real concerns, just an observation.  I don't want people bounced when the discussions get going good.  At the same time it's good to know what the parameters are so that firm lines don't get crossed.  This way we all know and play by the same rules.

*Tessie*,

So lovely to "hear" your "voice" again.  You like cracking the whip amongst stickers.  You are a versatile lassie.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## DoxN4cer (Jul 16, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> That's not what I'm trying to say, but Bart got the idea. There are a couple of interesting topics in this thread that we could discuss.



Curious...

Just what are you trying to say?


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 16, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Curious...
> 
> Just what are you trying to say?




That there are interesting topics to discuss.


----------



## DoxN4cer (Jul 16, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> That there are interesting topics to discuss.




Thank you, nebulous one.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 17, 2004)

Tim,

Still waiting for your post on the subject.  You began the thread but haven't said your piece yet.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 17, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Tim,
> 
> Still waiting for your post on the subject.  You began the thread but haven't said your piece yet.
> 
> ...



As I said, when I'm done with the MT camp this weekend.
 :2xBird2:  :whip:  :asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 18, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> As I said, when I'm done with the MT camp this weekend.
> :2xBird2:  :whip:  :asian:



Okey dokey Puti smokey.

Tired eyed Dan


----------



## loki09789 (Jul 18, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> As I said, when I'm done with the MT camp this weekend.
> :2xBird2: :whip: :asian:


Tim,
Come on with the icons. Dan has been nothing but supportive and the "peacemaker" through all of this. I think he deserves better. Insulting me is understandable, but shouldn't be part of a 'friendly' discussion forum IMO. But, obviously you aren't afraid of the one week suspension lingering over all of "US" for stirring up an old ruckus.

I have noticed that lately your icons say more than your text does....in so many ways. 

Consider your "need some rest" comment was on Tues 7/13 at 11:40, yet you found the time and energy to post:

14th at 11:37 pm, 15th at 11:54pm, 16th at 1:48 AM, 16th at 5:36pm, 17th at 8:55 am, and 17th at 7:22 pm. I would imagine that some of those times could be construed as either "need rest/preparing time" or actual MT camp times during the event.....Hmmmmm "Datti doesn't love us anymore" (uh oh, another joke...)

Among these you have said I need "a personality", mentioned wanting money for a symposium appearance and used visuals that imply bullying and 'flicking the bird' or the gestural equivalent of FU.....

This is some example to set as a leader.

At least Dan was man enought to reply to my apology for the untimely tone/timing of my joke - which was based on the tone that you set "White Chief" old boy....

I don't care so much about what you have to say, but why don't you just say it?

Come on Tim, I was laughing with you, not at you. Dan was asking of you, not at you....why all the hostility and rudeness?


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Hmmmmm "Datti doesn't love us anymore



No, just you.


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 18, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

This is absolutely Nonsense~!!  If you Grown MEN can't see things on the same page.. Then Read a different Book.. Antagonistic remarks are petty and juvenile.. Words and more words typed will not 'Fix' the issue.  
Paul, Please refrain from 'jumping into the midst'.
Tim,  Please act accordingly.

Enough of this on the Boards.. Take it OFFLINE or Take it to REALITY~!

:soapbox:

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


----------



## DoxN4cer (Jul 18, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> *
> 
> Enough of this on the Boards.. Take it OFFLINE or Take it to REALITY~!
> 
> ...




Right on Tess, you go girl!!!

TK


----------



## Tgace (Jul 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> This is some example to set as a leader.


I think that this is a truth that can be spread in all directions here. I find it constructive to look at my old posts to see just how I "come off". Now...agreed people act differently in front of the keyboard than they do face to face, but I also think that mediums like this are tests of integrity. Sometimes how you act when you feel like you can say/do whatever you want without having to actually face a person can say volumes about who you really are.


----------



## Tgace (Jul 18, 2004)

A Parable.....

Westpoint, the U.S. Army officer training college, is known for its strict code of honor. In response to any question, cadets may give only four answers: "Yes sir, No sir, I don't know sir, or No excuse sir." Making excuses is a crime. If a person under a cadet's responsibility makes a mistake, the cadet takes the blame. This is to teach them responsibility and honor and most of all, integrity.
One of these cadets graduated and was sent to Vietnam as a Lieutenant. His first assignment was to supervise the construction of a runway in the jungle which was already underway. A sergeant was in charge. Unfortunately, he knew nothing about runways. He asked the sergeant, "Are you sure the direction of this runway is correct?" The sergeant assured him it was. So the Lieutenant said, "Well, continue on therefore and I'll trust your judgment."

An hour and a half later, a Colonel came by who was an expert in runways and blared, "Who is the idiot who ordered this runway to be built in this direction!?" The Lieutenant almost said, "This sergeant here, he said he knew...etc." But his actual words were, "I did, Sir." 

The Colonel got into the Lieutenant's face and asked, "Why did you order that?!" The Lieutenant replied, "No excuse, sir."

At this moment the sergeant approached, with his hand upraised as thought to speak. The Colonel apparently deduced what had happened and asked the Lieutenant, "You just came out of West Point, didn't you?" The Lieutenant said, "Yes Sir." The Colonel looked at the sergeant, then at the Lieutenant and said, "Well in that case, it was an honest mistake."

Later on the Colonel invited that Lieutenant to join his staff. This represented a substantial promotion.

This true story illustrates the central virtue in leadership: Integrity. In the cassette tape on Westpoint leadership training from which this true story was taken, the lecturer said if they can teach a cadet to be a man of complete integrity, they can make him into a leader regardless of temperament or natural qualifications. They are prepared to fail men with natural leadership ability if they cannot infuse absolute integrity into his character. 

This concept is so associated with Westpoint that when the Colonel encountered an officer with absolute integrity, he assumed 'Westpoint.'


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 18, 2004)

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Right on Tess, you go girl!!!
> 
> TK



Mr. Kashino,

I asked you not to reply in positive or in negative in any fashion at all to an official post by one of the staff. That request was private. This request is public.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 18, 2004)

> Originally Posted by loki09789
> This is some example to set as a leader.





			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> I think that this is a truth that can be spread in all directions here. I find it constructive to look at my old posts to see just how I "come off". Now...agreed people act differently in front of the keyboard than they do face to face, but I also think that mediums like this are tests of integrity. Sometimes how you act when you feel like you can say/do whatever you want without having to actually face a person can say volumes about who you really are.



Mr Gerace,

Yes Leadership. We could all discuss this. Yet it has been done by you and the other side, by all of their examples. Please refrain from entering these discussions as is your habit, with tidbits that distort the issue.

Thank You


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> A Parable.....
> 
> Westpoint, the U.S. Army officer training college, is known for its strict code of honor. In response to any question, cadets may give only four answers: "Yes sir, No sir, I don't know sir, or No excuse sir." Making excuses is a crime. If a person under a cadet's responsibility makes a mistake, the cadet takes the blame. This is to teach them responsibility and honor and most of all, integrity.
> One of these cadets graduated and was sent to Vietnam as a Lieutenant. His first assignment was to supervise the construction of a runway in the jungle which was already underway. A sergeant was in charge. Unfortunately, he knew nothing about runways. He asked the sergeant, "Are you sure the direction of this runway is correct?" The sergeant assured him it was. So the Lieutenant said, "Well, continue on therefore and I'll trust your judgment."
> ...



Nice Parable. What does it have to do with the topic, no matter how loose it was defined?


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2004)

Ok what I see. 

Two sides of a very old issue.

You were asked to grow up. You were asked to act like adults. You were asked to behave your age. Yet, no one involved has been able to do so.

Once side thinks they see an attack and makes allegations or counter attacks, then the other side senses or sees these for personal attacks and either does not reply or replies in same with additional BS that causes more issues.

People all think, it is one thing to act like something in front of the keyboard.

Call me 248-467-9454, I will figure out away for us to talk about it over the phone. I will even figure out the next time we could meet face to face. No this is not a threat or an attack. If you do not like what I have to say, then take it off line. I am done with this.

I will tell you all the same things to your face. Grow up, get it over. Do not discuss the past. If you cannot get along, then I am asking that you ignore each other. If you cannot do that, please let me know and I will assist anyone of you with the understanding of little people care about this. I will assist you in trying to understand why this is not Friendly behavior and also not acceptable behavior here on Martial Talk.

You all talk big in PM's and in E-mails, and in your posts. How will you grown men react to this? Will you please all act like adults, and agree not to talk to each other, and not to bait each other, and to just try to be productive.

I know this sounds harsh to some. I also know that the staff volunteers their time here to assits in this online community. Yet, we the staff and those that try to post information positively seem to get flack for their posts, and our actions. Will you all be happy when this site has no members and or is shut down? Rhetorical question, for you all. For I will answer the question. I do not expect this site to close down. I will let you know that we have lost some members before and we are still here.  For better or worse we are still here. So remember no company, or no forum is dependant on anyone person, that they cannot be asked to leave.

You all have done alot in the past. The only thing is that I am now upset with everyone. I was the defender of those to ger a chance to say what they want. No matter who it was. I am tired of this BS from you all. Either grow up, or go away. I care not what you do, Choose one and only one.

With respect and apologies to the rest of this forum and all of its' members for this rant and diatribe on childish actions of some of our members.

This thread is closed. If you feel grown up enough to try to discuss on another thread then please feel free to do so.

:asian:


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