# Lineages...



## kenpo3631 (May 31, 2005)

I noticed that the "Seniors" listed on this forum are Chape'l, Trejo, Hebler, Kelly, LaBounty, Mills, Palanzo, Planas, Sullivan, Tatum, & Conatser. I didn't see Wedlake on this list.

I mean no disrespect by this post but why isn't Wedlake listed? He became a direct student in 1979 as well as Mr. Conatser. Mr. Mills became one in 1980. That's only a 10 to 11 year prior to the SGM's passing, a far cry from when the other individuals on this list began training with Mr. Parker. 

Which raises the question, are they there because of their status (as heads of organizations)? Is Wedlake not qualified as a Senior? After all he began training in the same year as Mr. Conatser and yet Mr. C is listed as a Senior and Wedlake isn't.


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## jfarnsworth (May 31, 2005)

Lance,
Do a search over there under additional lineages or something to that effect. I asked the same question and was given an answer.
 :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2005)

The original list was based on who the AKSC recognized as the highest.
We've since removed a few of the inactive sections, and added a few more lineages based on traffic.
Adding an area on KenpoTalk for Mr. Wedlake is only a matter of "need". If he and/or his students would like one for his lineage, we'd be happy to set one up.  Same is true for all of the seniors.  If there is a demand for it, we're happy to add it in.


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## kenpo3631 (May 31, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Lance,
> Do a search over there under additional lineages or something to that effect. I asked the same question and was given an answer.
> :asian:



Jason,

Thanks, will do. :asian:


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## BlackIce (Oct 6, 2005)

Grandmaster Steve ( Sanders) Muhammad,
Was a 2nd Generation Black Belt but was elevated to 1st Gen status due to his accomplishment and prowess in Kenpo.  so why not list him? That was / is the Problen in EPAK SGM. Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine. Please give him his due he has EARNED IT.


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## Blindside (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine. Please give him his due he has EARNED IT.



Oh boy, you might want to find a photo of Doc (Ron Chapel).

Lamont


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Grandmaster Steve ( Sanders) Muhammad,
> Was a 2nd Generation Black Belt but was elevated to 1st Gen status due to his accomplishment and prowess in Kenpo. so why not list him? That was / is the Problen in EPAK SGM. Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine. Please give him his due he has EARNED IT.


Hey Doc Chapel what's that make You? LOL The race card pulled again when it needed to stay in the deck.


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Grandmaster Steve ( Sanders) Muhammad,
> Was a 2nd Generation Black Belt but was elevated to 1st Gen status due to his accomplishment and prowess in Kenpo.  so why not list him? That was / is the Problen in EPAK SGM. Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine. Please give him his due he has EARNED IT.


Umm, I have not heard such a statement before. Are you sure you did enough research to make that claim? :asian:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Grandmaster Steve ( Sanders) Muhammad,
> Was a 2nd Generation Black Belt but was elevated to 1st Gen status due to his accomplishment and prowess in Kenpo. so why not list him? That was / is the Problen in EPAK SGM. Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine. Please give him his due he has EARNED IT.


Lotsa assumptions in there. 

1st gen status typically refers to people who either started directly with Mr. Parker, or who lateraled over to train with him predimonantly after starting with someone else. 1st generation would mean, um, a first generation black belt under SGM parker. Accomplishment doesn't elevate one back in time to train where they didn't. One may be honored as a Senior in the kenpo community, even if not directly 1st gen; important difference. There are 2nd gen "seniors", and 1st gen guys who, although oldsters, are not among the recognized seniors -- generally, due to lack of participation or contribution.


Mr. Chapel is, believe it or not, black. He was a good friend of Mr. Parker, trained with him regularly, worked on major projects with him, etc. He is also, contrary to the misinformed assertions of folks like Mr. Pick & his underlings,  1st gen senior.

By the way, welcome to MT.

Regards,

Dave


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## Ray (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine


Apparently you don't understand the religious doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  If Mr. Parker held back on promoting men of color, it wasn't due to the doctrine of the LDS Church.


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> That was / is the Problen in EPAK SGM. Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine.


I did not know Mr. Parker but from what I do know I believe that you are mistaken.  

Jeff


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## Gin-Gin (Oct 6, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> Oh boy, you might want to find a photo of Doc (Ron Chapel). -Lamont


You mean like this one...Dr. Chapel's name is misspelled, but I'm pretty sure that's him on the left.  (courtesy of Mr. Rainer Schulte's website)


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Grandmaster Steve ( Sanders) Muhammad,
> Was a 2nd Generation Black Belt but was elevated to 1st Gen status due to his accomplishment and prowess in Kenpo.


Yes Steve was a great competitor in the heydays of the creation of the sport.


> so why not list him?


I think the owner of the site has addressed that appropriately. However to turn it into a racial matter is inappropriate. I could easily point out there are many more individuals who also are not represented who are not of color. To suggest that somehow Steve is excluded because of his color is probably indicative of some perceived bias on your part.


> That was / is the Problen in EPAK SGM. Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine.


I find it interesting sir you speak of the old days as if you personally witnessed, or received some slight during that period. Considering your profile indicates you were born in 1973, obviously your information is, at best second hand. Ill take a guess that you didnt begin any training until at least the eighties, if at all. When you were born, I had already known Ed Parker for a decade and was his best friend. Moreover, relevant only to this discussion, I too coincidently happen to be Black.

The Tracys and others have often suggested somehow that Mr. Parkers religious beliefs influenced his Kenpo in some way. For the record, and first person, it did not. They have also suggested that he was racist and sexist during that period. They and you are very wrong. Although it is true Blacks were a minority in Kenpo, relatively speaking, it is no different today. The same holds true for women. There were also no children in those days, but I dont think anyone ever suggested Mr. Parker didnt like children.

Clearly, for reasons of your own, you feel Steve has not received the recognition you feel he deserves on this forum. While he may have achieved a significant status in your mind at some time in the past, this forum acknowledges those who participate and support its function.

Im sure there are many that would be interested in his posting and participating in discussions here, and this would allow him to get his due from those who come here. Nevertheless, to suggest posters or the owner of the forum should reach out and just begin laying accolades on someone known here in name only is ludicrous.

Steve has gotten his deserved due and then some from those he consistently interacts with on a regular basis. Should he do the same here, Im sure he would receive it here. However, make no mistake, this is a public forum and it reaches out to everyone. Some choose to participate, and many dont. Dont be upset because we choose to have conversations with and about those who participate, as opposed to those who do not.

Someone please insert centerfold picture here ->


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## Sapper6 (Oct 6, 2005)

Doc,

i would be interested to know what you and Mr. Parker were doing in the above photograph.  looks like studying...

...and did you break out into any funky piano jams that afternoon?


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> i would be interested to know what you and Mr. Parker were doing in the above photograph.  looks like studying...
> 
> ...and did you break out into any funky piano jams that afternoon?


You know I really don't remember. Clearly that was from the seventies in Mr. Parker's living room, and the famous piano the Mr. Rich Hale spoke of in our private lessons. 
But Mr. Parker was always giving me organizational lessons to help categorize and sort information for the codification process. However considering the picture was taken by Rainer Schulte, and he and I never had a lesson together that I can recall, it probably had something to do with the Internationals. Rainer was an intergarl part of the IKC for many years.

Oh by the way, I leave the piano jamming to the Old Man and Rich Hale. Both were better at it than I.


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

kenpo3631 said:
			
		

> I noticed that the "Seniors" listed on this forum are Chape'l, Trejo, Hebler, Kelly, LaBounty, Mills, Palanzo, Planas, Sullivan, Tatum, & Conatser. I didn't see Wedlake on this list.
> 
> I mean no disrespect by this post but why isn't Wedlake listed? He became a direct student in 1979 as well as Mr. Conatser. Mr. Mills became one in 1980. That's only a 10 to 11 year prior to the SGM's passing, a far cry from when the other individuals on this list began training with Mr. Parker.
> 
> Which raises the question, are they there because of their status (as heads of organizations)? Is Wedlake not qualified as a Senior? After all he began training in the same year as Mr. Conatser and yet Mr. C is listed as a Senior and Wedlake isn't.


Actually Lee is simply not listed, not unlisted as a senior. You can't list everybody, especially people who don't participate. However if there were a large group of Lee's students who wanted a listing so they could discuss things from his teaching perspective, I'm sure they would be accommodated. When it was created, it was with the idea that these guys would particpate, and some have chosen not to. Perhaps their names should be removed until they decide to join in. Not my call. Better yet, tell Lee to get his hips over here so I can get a hold of him.  Lee's a good friend and it doesn't bother him in the least. However there are a bunch of forums out there that don't mention me at all and I think that's a bunch of crap.


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## Doc (Oct 6, 2005)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Hey Doc Chapel what's that make You? LOL The race card pulled again when it needed to stay in the deck.


Well said Hawkman. What does that make US?


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## BlackIce (Oct 9, 2005)

Kenpo Salute,
I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers..... Yes WE are a minority in Kenpo..... Yes I do konw Ron Chapel ( if mispelled sorry) and yes I started training in 1978  with The B.K.F. no I don't believe in pulling " THE RACE CARD " that's a cop out. I just wanted to start a meaningful dialog, about our art and the lack of " Senior Instructors " of COLOR not neccicarily BLACK. Please don't misread my intentions. I watched Mr. Chapel do his thing when I was a kid and he was The CHP'S KARATE COP. I also watch him workout at Sportman's Park ( Jessie Owens park) So lets not get this twisted. So how do we encourage ALL AMERICANS to practice AMERICAN KENPO KARATE? That's all I'm asking.


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## carmstrong (Oct 9, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Kenpo Salute,
> I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers...
> 
> So how do we encourage ALL AMERICANS to practice AMERICAN KENPO KARATE? That's all I'm asking.


  Hello,

 For future reference: If you had started out asking this constructive question about unity and inclusion, you wouldn't have ruffled any feathers, but instead you made and statement of fact - an acusation.



			
				BlackIce said:
			
		

> Parker's Mormon beliefs did influence him to not promote men of African Decent to prominent status in the old days due to religious doctrine.


  Chris


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## Doc (Oct 9, 2005)

BlackIce said:
			
		

> Kenpo Salute,
> I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers..... Yes WE are a minority in Kenpo..... Yes I do konw Ron Chapel ( if mispelled sorry) and yes I started training in 1978  with The B.K.F. no I don't believe in pulling " THE RACE CARD " that's a cop out. I just wanted to start a meaningful dialog, about our art and the lack of " Senior Instructors " of COLOR not neccicarily BLACK. Please don't misread my intentions. I watched Mr. Chapel do his thing when I was a kid and he was The CHP'S KARATE COP. I also watch him workout at Sportman's Park ( Jessie Owens park) So lets not get this twisted. So how do we encourage ALL AMERICANS to practice AMERICAN KENPO KARATE? That's all I'm asking.


I'm sorry sir, but it seemed you were making some pretty strong statements rather than asking for dialog. Also for the record; I have never worked for the California Highway Patrol, nor have I ever worked out at Sportsman's/Jesse Owens Park ever. Perhaps you have "Ron Chapél" mixed up with someone else? You may PM me if you like.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 9, 2005)

> Originally Posted by kenpo3631
> I noticed that the "Seniors" listed on this forum are Chape'l, Trejo, Hebler, Kelly, LaBounty, Mills, Palanzo, Planas, Sullivan, Tatum, & Conatser. I didn't see Wedlake on this list.
> 
> I mean no disrespect by this post but why isn't Wedlake listed? He became a direct student in 1979 as well as Mr. Conatser. Mr. Mills became one in 1980. That's only a 10 to 11 year prior to the SGM's passing, a far cry from when the other individuals on this list began training with Mr. Parker.
> ...





			
				Doc said:
			
		

> Actually Lee is simply not listed, not unlisted as a senior. You can't list everybody, especially people who don't participate. However if there were a large group of Lee's students who wanted a listing so they could discuss things from his teaching perspective, I'm sure they would be accommodated. When it was created, it was with the idea that these guys would particpate, and some have chosen not to. Perhaps their names should be removed until they decide to join in. Not my call. Better yet, tell Lee to get his hips over here so I can get a hold of him. Lee's a good friend and it doesn't bother him in the least. However there are a bunch of forums out there that don't mention me at all and I think that's a bunch of crap.


 
 Both Mr. Wedlake and Mr. Mills are not listed as they are not currently members of this forum. If they were to join, we would gladly add their names to the list as being participating Kenpo Seniors here. Others listed either are or were members, or we had been told they were coming so we added them in advance. We need to update the list. We tried similar recognition on KenpoTalk, adding a forum for many of the seniors lineages. Very few joined, and fewer participated unfortunately. I am aware that all of these gentlemen are busy, and many prefer to avoid forums due to past or ongoing concerns. If they were to become active members, either here or on KenpoTalk (or both), our staffs would do their utmost (within reason) to accomidate them and their students needs.  If you would like to see them here, politely asking them to might help. I would be happy to talk to any of them to discuss any concerns or reservations they might have.
_

_


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## AvPKenpo (Oct 9, 2005)

Ray said:
			
		

> Apparently you don't understand the religious doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.  If Mr. Parker held back on promoting men of color, it wasn't due to the doctrine of the LDS Church.




Thank you.  You saved me some typing   :ultracool 

Michael


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