# Very cool Hapkido video!!



## adamr01 (Jun 25, 2019)

This is an educational video on Hapkido, with some excellent demonstrations.


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## oftheherd1 (Jun 25, 2019)

Interesting that some short stick and cane were shown.

Welcome to Martial Talk.  You might wish to go to the Meet and Greet sub forum and tell us a little about yourself.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 26, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> This is an educational video on Hapkido, with some excellent demonstrations.


I like most of the techniques in your clip. What's your opinion on those "floating" throws at 6.17 - 6.37?


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## adamr01 (Jun 28, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like most of the techniques in your clip. What's your opinion on those "floating" throws at 6.17 - 6.37?



They look great for the demo, but the falling partners are not attacking that hard so this way he can pull off his techniques.  There is something to it though.  When I was first learning joint locks, when grabbing the wrist of my first Hapkido teacher, who was a Korean Grandmaster, all he had to do was widen his hand and open his fingers to expand his wrist, and I could barely hold on.  And that was before he applied the technique.  He explained that this was to allow KI energy to flow through his arm, which helps to execute the lock.  The throws in the video look to me to be a demonstration of flowing KI energy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> The throws in the video look to me to be a demonstration of flowing KI energy.


This principle 'floating" also exist in the Chinese wrestling system. The demo partner has to flip himself to release the pressure on his wrist. If he doesn't flip, he may hurt his wrist or elbow joint.






IMO, all demo are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The

- fake part is your opponent will give you that opportunity.
- real part is you have to finish it by yourself.

If your opponent helps you to finish (such as the flip), that's fake demo by definition.

I like the clip (especially catching the kicking leg and horse back kick the rooting leg). But the "floating" demo may drag the clip away from the reality.


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## CKB (Jul 3, 2019)

It is well established that Hapkido is less than eighty years old, and to a large degree based on Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, so the historical claims of Hapkido links to Tan Gun and ancient korea is obiously wrong. Seems this video was created in the same political climate and time periode as the one that resulted in absurd claims that Taekwondo is an independently developed 2000 year old homegrown korean martial art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> They look great for the demo, but the falling partners are not attacking that hard so this way he can pull off his techniques.  There is something to it though.  When I was first learning joint locks, when grabbing the wrist of my first Hapkido teacher, who was a Korean Grandmaster, all he had to do was widen his hand and open his fingers to expand his wrist, and I could barely hold on.  And that was before he applied the technique.  He explained that this was to allow KI energy to flow through his arm, which helps to execute the lock.  The throws in the video look to me to be a demonstration of flowing KI energy.


It has nothing to do with ki - it's a mechanical thing. Make a tight fist with your dominant hand. Grab that wrist tightly with your non-dominant hand. Now open the dominant hand and spread it wide with tension. You'll feel an "expansion" in the gripped area, as the tendons slide up to the hand (putting the muscles under your grip, instead of the tendons). The more muscular you are (and depending somewhat on body type), the more pronounced the effect. Learning to use this well with other mechanics, it can have a profound effect on grip.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like most of the techniques in your clip. What's your opinion on those "floating" throws at 6.17 - 6.37?


There are a lot of those in the aiki/hapki arts. They're not really throws in the normal sense - the fall is an escape from a lock. So used against someone who doesn't jump into the escape, it's meant to be a joint destruction. Some people - even without training - will jump into an escape, just as a response to the pain, but I wouldn't expect that to be a reliable response.


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## skribs (Jul 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, all demo are 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The



I'm tempted to do a post on my thoughts on technique demonstration and common critique.  Sort of a Myth - Fact type of post.  For example:

Myth: This only works because your partner is compliant.
Fact:  If the partner was not compliant, I wouldn't be able to demonstrate the technique in detail.

Myth:  This only works because your partner is not fighting back.
Fact:  Done at fighting speed (instead of detailed demonstration speed) there's less opportunity to fight back
Fact:  This is showing how the technique works, it will need to be modified based on the response of your opponent.

Basically, that in order to do a demonstration of a technique, you have to create a somewhat clinical environment in which that technique can be displayed.  If I am trying to get a V-Lock and my partner keeps his wrist straight, there are certainly things I can do instead of the V-lock, but that doesn't help me demonstrate how to do a V-lock.


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## wab25 (Jul 3, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm tempted to do a post on my thoughts on technique demonstration and common critique. Sort of a Myth - Fact type of post. For example:


Myth: The throw looks like the demo, when applied for real.
Fact: Not always... sometimes the real world result can be very different than result in the demonstration.

Years ago when I was training in an MMA gym, one of the other guys had done Judo. We put on our gis and were running Judo style throws. We started working on this throw (the throw part here, not the other bits...)





One of the younger, less respectful MMA guys started talking about how that throw looked pretty, but was useless, as no would would fall like that. The MMA instructor told me to throw him. I asked if he was sure... he was.... The MMA guy was right! Non Judo people don't fall like that. He went straight down face first (I really enjoyed the look on his face), managed to turn and land on his shoulder, hard. Then he sat up and told me I needed to learn some control. The MMA instructor told him he needed to learn to fall, to wear a gi or to keep his mouth shut.

Anyway, the result of doing the throw looked very different than when demonstrating, or practicing the drill. But, when I applied the throw, I did everything the same. I guess everyone will have their own opinion of whether the throw worked or not. It did not cause the other guy to flip through the air and land in a good side fall position. It did put him down hard. 

Many of the joint lock, arm whip type throws are similar. The real application would cause something to either break or someone to take a difficult fall. That said, I am not sure I believed all of those floating throws... some were better than others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

wab25 said:


> Myth: The throw looks like the demo, when applied for real.
> Fact: Not always... sometimes the real world result can be very different than result in the demonstration.
> 
> Years ago when I was training in an MMA gym, one of the other guys had done Judo. We put on our gis and were running Judo style throws. We started working on this throw (the throw part here, not the other bits...)
> ...


With a lot of the "floating throws", it's pretty clear they work from the point where the actual throw is. The problem is the complex and technical entry often required to get there. At the very least, you often bypass a couple of more useful, reliable techniques on the way.


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## skribs (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> With a lot of the "floating throws", it's pretty clear they work from the point where the actual throw is. The problem is the complex and technical entry often required to get there. At the very least, you often bypass a couple of more useful, reliable techniques on the way.



I find there are some techniques that are hard to get to in most circumstances, but sometimes you accidentally find yourself there and it just works.  I've had sparring sessions where I'm trying to make something work and get into a position where it's like "oh, I can press here" and instantly they tap.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

skribs said:


> I find there are some techniques that are hard to get to in most circumstances, but sometimes you accidentally find yourself there and it just works.  I've had sparring sessions where I'm trying to make something work and get into a position where it's like "oh, I can press here" and instantly they tap.


And that's how I teach most of them. They're weapons of opportunity, so to speak. The real value of practicing them is getting to explore the principles and working the transitions in the entries. Funky stuff happens in fights, and being used to finding a solution in an odd sequence can be handy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> With a lot of the "floating throws", it's pretty clear they work from the point where the actual throw is. The problem is the complex and technical entry often required to get there.


The "floating throw" is one of the blue belt testing requirement in Chinese wrestling. We use both hands wrist control and kick to set it up. If your opponent doesn't flip, the end result can look just like a "arm twisting lock".

IMO, to use both hands to twist on your opponent's arm is possible. But to use just one hand to twist on your opponent's arm is very difficult (if not impossible).


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## skribs (Jul 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "floating throw" is one of the blue belt testing requirement in Chinese wrestling. We use both hands wrist control and kick to set it up. If your opponent doesn't flip, the end result can look just like a "arm twisting lock".
> 
> IMO, to use both hands to twist on your opponent's arm is possible. But to use just one hand to twist on your opponent's arm is very difficult (if not impossible).



The funny thing is, we have a lot of throws that aren't floating throws, but people end up floating or rolling to try and avoid the lock.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 3, 2019)

skribs said:


> The funny thing is, we have a lot of throws that aren't floating throws, but people end up floating or rolling to try and avoid the lock.


Agree! When your opponent sweeps your leg and make you to fall forward, if you try to look at his hip, you will have a safe landing. If you don't, you may end with head hit on the ground.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "floating throw" is one of the blue belt testing requirement in Chinese wrestling. We use both hands wrist control and kick to set it up. If your opponent doesn't flip, the end result can look just like a "arm twisting lock".
> 
> IMO, to use both hands to twist on your opponent's arm is possible. But to use just one hand to twist on your opponent's arm is very difficult (if not impossible).


If you have the grip at the hand (not the wrist), then step through, the twist is produced by body movement, rather than hand strength. One hand is sufficient if the grip is right. The issue is that the grip is damnably hard to get that right in the chaos.


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## skribs (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If you have the grip at the hand (not the wrist), then step through, the twist is produced by body movement, rather than hand strength. One hand is sufficient if the grip is right. The issue is that the grip is damnably hard to get that right in the chaos.



One thing I think has been the hardest to learn in Hapkido is the footwork.  The feet do 90% of the work.

You don't think about it, since it's supposed to be a wrist lock, but it is.


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## adamr01 (Jul 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It has nothing to do with ki - it's a mechanical thing. Make a tight fist with your dominant hand. Grab that wrist tightly with your non-dominant hand. Now open the dominant hand and spread it wide with tension. You'll feel an "expansion" in the gripped area, as the tendons slide up to the hand (putting the muscles under your grip, instead of the tendons). The more muscular you are (and depending somewhat on body type), the more pronounced the effect. Learning to use this well with other mechanics, it can have a profound effect on grip.



I agree with everything you said. But I ALSO think that in Hapkido, when you open your fingers wide like that, you are allowing KI energy to flow through your arm from your center. When you combine the mechanics you mentioned with the belief that KI energy is flowing through your arm, you get an even more powerful technique.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2019)

skribs said:


> One thing I think has been the hardest to learn in Hapkido is the footwork.  The feet do 90% of the work.
> 
> You don't think about it, since it's supposed to be a wrist lock, but it is.


Absolutely. I've actually changed how I teach some of the NGA techniques for that very reason - to better emphasize the importance of the body/leg movements.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> I agree with everything you said. But I ALSO think that in Hapkido, when you open your fingers wide like that, you are allowing KI energy to flow through your arm from your center. When you combine the mechanics you mentioned with the belief that KI energy is flowing through your arm, you get an even more powerful technique.


I've never needed anything mystical in these kinds of things. The mechanics alone are sufficient to explain the effect. I still often refer to it using the ki vocabulary, but my students learn first that ki is just a shorthand for a certain type of mechanics.


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## skribs (Jul 4, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I've never needed anything mystical in these kinds of things. The mechanics alone are sufficient to explain the effect. I still often refer to it using the ki vocabulary, but my students learn first that ki is just a shorthand for a certain type of mechanics.



I'm still trying to figure out how to write a full article on the shamanistic nature of martial arts.  So far all I've got is drawing power from the ground.


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm still trying to figure out how to write a full article on the shamanistic nature of martial arts.  So far all I've got is drawing power from the ground.



The "shamanistic nature of martial arts".  That's a corker of a phrase.

You know, Skribs, I hope you've compiled a lot of notes on the arts up until this point. You need to eventually write some books.


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## skribs (Jul 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> The "shamanistic nature of martial arts".  That's a corker of a phrase.
> 
> You know, Skribs, I hope you've compiled a lot of notes on the arts up until this point. You need to eventually write some books.



Are you talking about all the strange topics I bring up?


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2019)

skribs said:


> Are you talking about all the strange topics I bring up?



Not at all. I’m talking about your passion for the arts, good writing skills and your ever growing experience.


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## skribs (Jul 5, 2019)

Buka said:


> Not at all. I’m talking about your passion for the arts, good writing skills and your ever growing experience.



Oh, because I was hoping it was the strange topics.


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## Gweilo (Jul 9, 2019)

Another interesting Hapkido video


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## Buka (Jul 9, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Another interesting Hapkido video



What a great demonstration video. I so loved that. Bravo to that young lady.


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## adamr01 (Jul 11, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Another interesting Hapkido video


Cool video! I really like those elbow blocks at around 2:45. Very painful.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 13, 2019)

Buka said:


> What a great demonstration video. I so loved that. Bravo to that young lady.



Clearly she would excel in whatever martial art she studied.


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## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of those in the aiki/hapki arts. They're not really throws in the normal sense - the fall is an escape from a lock. So used against someone who doesn't jump into the escape, it's meant to be a joint destruction. Some people - even without training - will jump into an escape, just as a response to the pain, but I wouldn't expect that to be a reliable response.


Agree. I have practiced/taught joint lock self defense/counter drills to some big men who some joint locks simply do not work on without some sort of setup or distraction to set the lock. Even then it is very hard.
I am intrigued by Hapkido but so much of the video was predicated on what the attacker did after contact. Frankly, I am more impressed by how the attackers were able to respond, apparently without much damage because they kept coming. There is great value in that mentality of continuance in a actual fight/bout or for LEO. 
I couldn't tell for certain but it looked like they were on pine straw bedding, not exactly padding.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 15, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> This is an educational video on Hapkido, with some excellent demonstrations.


Nice video, but I do not believe all the history. More likely Hapkido was develop from Korean Martial Artist who learn Japanese Martial Artist during the long Japanese occupation of Korea.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> Nice video, but I do not believe all the history. More likely Hapkido was develop from Korean Martial Artist who learn Japanese Martial Artist during the long Japanese occupation of Korea.


It's pretty well established (and pretty obvious, IMO) that it's largely derived from Daito-ryu (perhaps via Ueshiba's Aikido?).


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## Gweilo (Jul 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's pretty well established (and pretty obvious, IMO) that it's largely derived from Daito-ryu (perhaps via Ueshiba's Aikido?).



Yes the art did emerge from Daito Ryu, but not from Ueshiba's Aikido. There are no records of Choi in the archives of Daito ryu, either in his Korean name or adopted Japanese name. But Saito is on record in an interview stating his father claimed Choi did indeed attend seminars as an assistant  to Takada Sagaku. Choi returned to Korea before Ueshiba had created Aikido. An interview with Choi in the late 80's refers to his art as Yawara, and it is claimed by some that Ji Han Jan added most of the Korean influence and the name of Hapkido, the exact truth will probably never be known. I enjoyed the art when I trained it, it is fascinating,  and still use some of the techniques in training today.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 16, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Yes the art did emerge from Daito Ryu, but not from Ueshiba's Aikido. There are no records of Choi in the archives of Daito ryu, either in his Korean name or adopted Japanese name. But Saito is on record in an interview stating his father claimed Choi did indeed attend seminars as an assistant  to Takada Sagaku. Choi returned to Korea before Ueshiba had created Aikido. An interview with Choi in the late 80's refers to his art as Yawara, and it is claimed by some that Ji Han Jan added most of the Korean influence and the name of Hapkido, the exact truth will probably never be known. I enjoyed the art when I trained it, it is fascinating,  and still use some of the techniques in training today.


He did return to Korea before Ueshiba started calling anything Aikido, but there's no really good dividing line as to when he started teaching something he would have considered Aikido (when he later used that term). A few things I've seen in Hapkido (haven't seen much, but enough to wonder) have me wondering if he had some significant interaction with Ueshiba in those days. It's a vague wondering, at best, and not backed by anything substantial.


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## Gweilo (Jul 16, 2019)

I agree, Choi would not have been given any status, 1 because he would have been classed as a servant, 2nd he was not Japanese, and the only evidence is say so. The most interesting part was Morihei Ueshiba's acknowledgement to Saito Sense about Choi assisting at a seminar. Assiting in what way we are unsure of, but it is clear Choi was proficient at the techniques. After Takada ended his life via a hunger strike, it is unlikely Morihei would have associated himself with Choi, seeing as Choi stated in his 1980's interview,  he returned to Korea, because he did not feel his Korean heritage would have been tolerated.


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## Gweilo (Jul 16, 2019)

Found this link for the mentioned interview. Though it is not the full interview. 

Historical Interview with Choi Yong-Sul – Hapkido Journal


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## Gweilo (Jul 16, 2019)

Also this link may help, but we will still not know the whole truth.

The History of Hapkido - Scott Shaw


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 16, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There are a lot of those in the aiki/hapki arts. *They're not really throws in the normal sense - the fall is an escape from a lock. So used against someone who doesn't jump into the escape, it's meant to be a joint destruction*. Some people - even without training - will jump into an escape, just as a response to the pain, but I wouldn't expect that to be a reliable response.



Missed this reply when I read this before. You are of course correct.  Too many who don't practice the grappling arts don't understand that.  When a grapple is correctly applied, there will  be destruction unless the defender stops before that happens, or the attacker applies the correct break fall.

And for further clarification, there are actual throws, at least in the Hapkido I studied, and I am sure the other grappling arts must be the same.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 16, 2019)

skribs said:


> One thing I think has been the hardest to learn in Hapkido is the footwork.  The feet do 90% of the work.
> 
> You don't think about it, since it's supposed to be a wrist lock, but it is.



Yes sir!  Another thing that is sometimes hard to learn.  One of the reasons I felt so uncoordinated when I first began studying Hapkido.   

For that reason, when I started teaching, footwork was one of the things I emphasized and ensured I taught with any new technique I taught.


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## skribs (Jul 16, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes sir!  Another thing that is sometimes hard to learn.  One of the reasons I felt so uncoordinated when I first began studying Hapkido.
> 
> For that reason, when I started teaching, footwork was one of the things I emphasized and ensured I taught with any new technique I taught.



That's the first thing we teach as well, and yet even though people can master the footwork when they don't have ahold of someone, as soon as they grab someone's arm they shuffle step around them like they're trying to generate static electricity.


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## thanson02 (Jul 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Also this link may help, but we will still not know the whole truth.
> 
> The History of Hapkido - Scott Shaw



The formatting on that website is horrible. 

As for the whole truth, it is a shame that much of it is a "he said, she said" situation.  I did hear through the grapevine that there is someone who was involved with the official documents of many of the early Hapkido and Hapkido connected schools, but they are not giving up the info for whatever reason.

Best we can do with what we have is look at the different accounts, go with the similarities between the accounts, and assume the rest is just personal perspective.


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes sir!  Another thing that is sometimes hard to learn.  One of the reasons I felt so uncoordinated when I first began studying Hapkido.
> 
> For that reason, when I started teaching, footwork was one of the things I emphasized and ensured I taught with any new technique I taught.



That brings back some memories, hours and hours of standing in T stance, sweeping the legs round, forward, back, turn, back, turn, forward, I still move this way, which gets me a ticking off in my current art, but I can't help it when there is a lock on its there, I do sometimes refer to T stance as an old friend.


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

thanson02 said:


> The formatting on that website is horrible.
> 
> As for the whole truth, it is a shame that much of it is a "he said, she said" situation.  I did hear through the grapevine that there is someone who was involved with the official documents of many of the early Hapkido and Hapkido connected schools, but they are not giving up the info for whatever reason.
> 
> Best we can do with what we have is look at the different accounts, go with the similarities between the accounts, and assume the rest is just personal perspective.



I too remember a rumour like this back in 2000 and something, not sure if it the same rumour, but this person will not release this information, as it discredits their version of the Hapkido story, but as you say, he says she says, the person in the rumour I heard, is a Korean bloke that now resides in the USA,  and their version was of the art was called Sin moo.


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## thanson02 (Jul 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I too remember a rumour like this back in 2000 and something, not sure if it the same rumour, but this person will not release this information, as it discredits their version of the Hapkido story, but as you say, he says she says, the person in the rumour I heard, is a Korean bloke that now resides in the USA,  and their version was of the art was called Sin moo.



It might be the same rumor.  What I heard was that it was to respect the different schools and masters perspectives on what happened and prevent inter-school fighting.  Not sure if I put much stock in it though.  From what I have seen, if the old masters don't like it, they will call it all lies and double down on their views of the history.

I was under the impression that Sin Moo Hapkido was founded in the 1980s by Ji Han-Jae?


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

I don't think the idea to stop inter school fighting or arguing worked, if it did, I would still be training in Hapkido, Sin moo may have been established in the 1980's, but I recall an interview he did around the time of the death of Bruce Lee, with regards to the film game of death, and about Korean arts, and he refered to his art as Sin moo back in the 70's, I will see if I can find the interview,  either way his contribution to Hapkido is undeniable.


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

Here is an interesting read attached, I always believe there are 3 sides to a story, A B, and the truth is somewhere between.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2019)

skribs said:


> That's the first thing we teach as well, and yet even though people can master the footwork when they don't have ahold of someone, as soon as they grab someone's arm they shuffle step around them like they're trying to generate static electricity.


Yeah, that's not uncommon. I've seen someone master a sequence of steps (there's one I use as part of the warm-up), then get to the technique that uses it, and ENTIRELY change the sequence of steps because they've touched a person. It takes them a while to connect the dots and get the body movement to do the work.

I had a student say one time, "It looks so easy when you do it." My reply: "That's because I'm doing it right."


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

There are some interesting reads here as well.

Complete history and chronology of Hapkido


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Here is an interesting read attached, I always believe there are 3 sides to a story, A B, and the truth is somewhere between.


I can't open that PDF for some reason.


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw065PG96RL4DG6xNPAL5cU2

See if that helps


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw065PG96RL4DG6xNPAL5cU2
> 
> See if that helps


Much better, thanks.


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## Bruce7 (Jul 17, 2019)

IMO Hapkido must be a very important MA.
Back when I was young, when the WTF had just formed.
We talk about how cool it would be to go to Korea and get the training at the source.
I was told a student ask Jack Hwang if he got to Korea what taekwondo teacher should he study under.
He told the student if he got to Korea to study Hapkido.


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## Gweilo (Jul 17, 2019)

I was lucky enough to get invited to train Hapkido for 6 months in Korea, it was f***ING hard going, many a time I would ask myself why am I here, the Do jag I attended, was 8 hours a day  (with a couple of breaks) hard training, one day we trained only breakfalls that was it, another day we practiced shoulder rolls, straw mats, left shoulder right shoulder, run around the mat, then again, for 8 hours, the only other time I puked as much was my first sea fishing adventure, but I can still shoulder role now, those 6 months improved my Hapkido 10 fold, and ingrained a belief of yes you can, and let me tell you, I had passed my 2nd Dan just before I got the invite, once there, I felt like a white belt for the 1st 3 months, if you get the opportunity to train an art in its native country, my advice would be, if you are serious about your art, grab it with both hands, but buy f**k will you have to work for it.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 17, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's pretty well established (and pretty obvious, IMO) that it's largely derived from Daito-ryu (perhaps via Ueshiba's Aikido?).



That seems very likely.  My GM told me that all the old GM acknowledged that the art came from a Korean who came back to Korea after WWII.  I don't recall that he ever gave the name of the Japanese art and frankly, I wasn't all that interested.  I just wanted to learn as much of what he knew as I could.

Some will say it is unlikely that he would have "lost" all his possessions on a train.  Those were hard times in Korea and that is as likely as anything else.  Whatever, it is clear that Choi was an excellent practitioner of a grappling martial art.  That is not contestable.  Choi has stated where it came from as well, and there is no record that it was handed down from the Shilla dynasty.  Sorry for any disappointment that might cause.

Any desire to boost Korean egos is misplaced in my opinion.  Ego boost should only come from ones demonstrated learning and abilities in the art practiced, not where it came from.


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## Gweilo (Jul 18, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I agree, Choi would not have been given any status, 1 because he would have been classed as a servant, 2nd he was not Japanese, and the only evidence is say so. The most interesting part was Morihei Ueshiba's acknowledgement to Saito Sense about Choi assisting at a seminar. Assiting in what way we are unsure of, but it is clear Choi was proficient at the techniques. After Takada ended his life via a hunger strike, it is unlikely Morihei would have associated himself with Choi, seeing as Choi stated in his 1980's interview,  he returned to Korea, because he did not feel his Korean heritage would have been tolerated.



Apologies in this post I quoted Saito,  when I should have stated Kissomaru.


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## Buka (Jul 18, 2019)

Here, I'll give you guys the official history of American Karate......

A bunch of guys got together and figured out a way to fight and exercise and taught it to other people.

Throughout the years various people improved on it and others added a liberal amount of bullship to it.

Some opened halls where it was sold to others.......and where the term Caveat Emptor raised it's old Latin head for the umpteenth time.

Of course, that's only American Karate. I'm sure it's a different story for all the other arts. 
They probably didn't use the word umpteenth.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 18, 2019)

Buka said:


> Here, I'll give you guys the official history of American Karate......
> 
> A bunch of guys got together and figured out a way to fight and exercise and taught it to other people.
> 
> ...



I expected better of you Buka.  I see no mention of practitioners secretly conspiring to show nebulous information from the American Karate old timers, proving how it came from those highly trained and elite amphibious soldiers serving under no less that George Washington himself.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 18, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I was lucky enough to get invited to train Hapkido for 6 months in Korea, it was f***ING hard going, many a time I would ask myself why am I here, the Do jag I attended, was 8 hours a day  (with a couple of breaks) hard training, one day we trained only breakfalls that was it, another day we practiced shoulder rolls, straw mats, left shoulder right shoulder, run around the mat, then again, for 8 hours, the only other time I puked as much was my first sea fishing adventure, but I can still shoulder role now, those 6 months improved my Hapkido 10 fold, and ingrained a belief of yes you can, and let me tell you, I had passed my 2nd Dan just before I got the invite, once there, I felt like a white belt for the 1st 3 months, if you get the opportunity to train an art in its native country, my advice would be, if you are serious about your art, grab it with both hands, but buy f**k will you have to work for it.



Sounds like an interesting experience.  I would caution anyone contemplating such an adventure to check the reputation of such a school.  Unfortunately, as with all martial arts, not every teacher who wishes to start a new kwan, wishes to advance the art as much as some other motive.


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## Buka (Jul 18, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> I expected better of you Buka.  I see no mention of practitioners secretly conspiring to show nebulous information from the American Karate old timers, proving how it came from those highly trained and elite amphibious soldiers serving under no less that George Washington himself.



I hang my head in shame, how could I have forgotten him?


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## dvcochran (Jul 18, 2019)

Buka said:


> Here, I'll give you guys the official history of American Karate......
> 
> A bunch of guys got together and figured out a way to fight and exercise and taught it to other people.
> 
> ...


Caveat Emptor are words to live by.


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## Gweilo (Jul 19, 2019)

oftheherd1 said:


> Sounds like an interesting experience.  I would caution anyone contemplating such an adventure to check the reputation of such a school.  Unfortunately, as with all martial arts, not every teacher who wishes to start a new kwan, wishes to advance the art as much as some other motive.



I agree, my teacher introduced me to a Korean gentleman at a training weekend for black belts and above, I had mentioned to my teacher I was interested in going to Korea, at the training session, the gentleman from Korea trained with me, talked to me, at the end of the weekend end, he informed me that he would write a recommendation letter for me, several months later, I received the invite to go to Korea, along with a letter of introduction. I cannot remember the Korean gentleman's name, but the person I trained under in Korea was a gentleman called Kim Nam Jae. So I will amend my statement, if you get the chance to go to the country of origin, through your federation, then grab it with both hands.


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## Gweilo (Jul 19, 2019)

Buka said:


> They probably didn't use the word umpteenth.



I thought only posh British used the word umpteenth, do you drink tea from a porcelain cup, with your pinky finger sticking out?.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I thought only posh British used the word umpteenth, do you drink tea from a porcelain cup, with your pinky finger sticking out?.


It's pretty common usage in the US, too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I agree, my teacher introduced me to a Korean gentleman at a training weekend for black belts and above, I had mentioned to my teacher I was interested in going to Korea, at the training session, the gentleman from Korea trained with me, talked to me, at the end of the weekend end, he informed me that he would write a recommendation letter for me, several months later, I received the invite to go to Korea, along with a letter of introduction. I cannot remember the Korean gentleman's name, but the person I trained under in Korea was a gentleman called Kim Nam Jae. So I will amend my statement, if you get the chance to go to the country of origin, through your federation, then grab it with both hands.


I don't think there's anything special about training in the country of origin, from an intensity standpoint, or even necessarily from a depth of understanding. In some cases, there is greater depth of understanding (higher concentration of highly experienced practitioners) and in other cases there's just more adherence to the traditional methods (which may be good or may not). And intensity can vary by culture (which may favor the country of origin or not) and by school/instructor.


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## Gweilo (Jul 19, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think there's anything special about training in the country of origin, from an intensity standpoint, or even necessarily from a depth of understanding. In some cases, there is greater depth of understanding (higher concentration of highly experienced practitioners) and in other cases there's just more adherence to the traditional methods (which may be good or may not). And intensity can vary by culture (which may favor the country of origin or not) and by school/instructor.



Quite simply put, exposure leads to contamination, would be my answer to your post, in the UK at the time of my training, Hapkido was not, and still is not well known, so there was a lack of quality instructors, going to Korea changed my fundamental approach to what was possible, and how to achieve it, they say seeing is believing, but knowing and doing is a whole new ball game. However, attending Hapkido seminars in the USA, under high ranking Koreans who had emigrated there, was equally as educational, so I will agree with you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Quite simply put, exposure leads to contamination, would be my answer to your post, in the UK at the time of my training, Hapkido was not, and still is not well known, so there was a lack of quality instructors, going to Korea changed my fundamental approach to what was possible, and how to achieve it, they say seeing is believing, but knowing and doing is a whole new ball game. However, attending Hapkido seminars in the USA, under high ranking Koreans who had emigrated there, was equally as educational, so I will agree with you.


I'm not sure I understand the "exposure leads to contamination" comment. Can you clarify that?


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## Gweilo (Jul 19, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure I understand the "exposure leads to contamination" comment. Can you clarify that?



Yes, it's a saying we have that means, when we are exposed to a way of training in my example, it has a habit of influencing us. You may found it used as an expression when a child starts to hang around with the wrong crowd, the more time spent with these people, the more their ways influence.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Yes, it's a saying we have that means, when we are exposed to a way of training in my example, it has a habit of influencing us. You may found it used as an expression when a child starts to hang around with the wrong crowd, the more time spent with these people, the more their ways influence.


I can agree with that. I guess I'm not sure how that applies to whether training is in the country of origin or not. It would seem to imply what's more important is the level of ability/expertise of the people you train with.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2019)

Buka said:


> Here, I'll give you guys the official history of American Karate......
> 
> A bunch of guys got together and figured out a way to fight and exercise and taught it to other people.
> 
> ...


They weren’t speaking Latin in old China either, so that is a big difference between the history of your system and the history of mine.


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## Gweilo (Jul 19, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I can agree with that. I guess I'm not sure how that applies to whether training is in the country of origin or not. It would seem to imply what's more important is the level of ability/expertise of the people you train with.



It applies because the level of quality Hapkido in the UK at this time was low, in Korea it was massive, the USA had Korean migrants bringing a wealth of quality,, I think in my time there was 2 quality teachers, going to Korea was like having a limit of what was possible, completely removed, it was like a light switch, suddenly the things that I was confused about or never understood, suddenly made sense.it is different now days,  let's just say, I wanted to learn nihon goshin Aikido in the uk, I would wager there are none, according to your Web site, there is none in Japan, so I would have to travel to the USA to get quality instruction, back in the day, you had to travel.


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## Buka (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> I thought only posh British used the word umpteenth, do you drink tea from a porcelain cup, with your pinky finger sticking out?.



Umpteenth is one of my favorite words, along with kibosh.

But I must admit I do love tea, really like porcelain cups, and I have been known on occasion to elevate the pinky.

I am a pinky raising fool.


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## Buka (Jul 19, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> They weren’t speaking Latin in old China either, so that is a big difference between the history of your system and the history of mine.



True. But I'll wager that every style started with "a bunch of guys got together and figured out a way to fight..."


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## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2019)

Buka said:


> True. But I'll wager that every style started with "a bunch of guys got together and figured out a way to fight..."


That’s probably true.  Somewhere along the way the story says that someone got inspiration somehow that revealed a new and better way to do things.  Usually it was a wondering monk or a famous general.  I mean my gawd, we couldn’t admit that the town latrine cleaner founded our system.  We just absolutely could not have it.  A wandering monk (mysterious and unnamed) or a famous general from at least 700 years ago sounds much better.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> It applies because the level of quality Hapkido in the UK at this time was low, in Korea it was massive, the USA had Korean migrants bringing a wealth of quality,, I think in my time there was 2 quality teachers, going to Korea was like having a limit of what was possible, completely removed, it was like a light switch, suddenly the things that I was confused about or never understood, suddenly made sense.it is different now days,  let's just say, I wanted to learn nihon goshin Aikido in the uk, I would wager there are none, according to your Web site, there is none in Japan, so I would have to travel to the USA to get quality instruction, back in the day, you had to travel.


Often today, quality traditional Chinese martial arts is easier to find outside of China, or in Taiwan.  In China, it is mostly the government sanctioned Modern Performance Wushu.


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## Gweilo (Jul 19, 2019)

Buka said:


> Umpteenth is one of my favorite words, along with kibosh.
> 
> But I must admit I do love tea, really like porcelain cups, and I have been known on occasion to elevate the pinky.
> 
> I am a pinky raising fool.



One day we will have a beer and a laugh


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## Buka (Jul 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> One day we will have a beer and a laugh



I would enjoy that. Beer and laughter are quite okay in my book.

Perhaps we will even raise pinkies.


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## Gweilo (Jul 20, 2019)

Careful


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## Buka (Jul 20, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> That’s probably true.  Somewhere along the way the story says that someone got inspiration somehow that revealed a new and better way to do things.  Usually it was a wondering monk or a famous general.  I mean my gawd, we couldn’t admit that the town latrine cleaner founded our system.  We just absolutely could not have it.  A wandering monk (mysterious and unnamed) or a famous general from at least 700 years ago sounds much better.



I was always partial to the wandering monk thing. But I always wondered why monks tended to wander?
I mean, did they finally make "Monk status" and the head guy said "Go forth and wander?"


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## Flying Crane (Jul 20, 2019)

Buka said:


> I was always partial to the wandering monk thing. But I always wondered why monks tended to wander?
> I mean, did they finally make "Monk status" and the head guy said "Go forth and wander?"


In the story, the monk is always wandering so that nobody tries to go out and find him to ask about the truth of the story.  Fellow could be anywhere, including dead in a ditch in the middle of Oklahoma.


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## Buka (Jul 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think there's anything special about training in the country of origin, from an intensity standpoint, or even necessarily from a depth of understanding. In some cases, there is greater depth of understanding (higher concentration of highly experienced practitioners) and in other cases there's just more adherence to the traditional methods (which may be good or may not). And intensity can vary by culture (which may favor the country of origin or not) and by school/instructor.



I agree, mostly. I think a person is better off in the country of origin if they study American Karate. 

Although I doubt it's taught anywhere else.


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## adamr01 (Jul 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think there's anything special about training in the country of origin, from an intensity standpoint, or even necessarily from a depth of understanding. In some cases, there is greater depth of understanding (higher concentration of highly experienced practitioners) and in other cases there's just more adherence to the traditional methods (which may be good or may not). And intensity can vary by culture (which may favor the country of origin or not) and by school/instructor.


Here in the US, a lot of schools adjust their intensity due to the potential for injuries, and the risk of lawsuits. To your point that intensity can vary by culture, training abroad can provide an experience free of those concerns, which can be jarring for Americans used to safer training environments. You may recall a TV series called "Fight Quest", in which they follow 2 guys who train in a given art for a week in their countries of origin. I thought they did a good job giving you a taste of what training in a martial art in the country the art came from would be like. Sometimes, like in the case of the Krav Maga episode, the training seemed particularly intense because they train over there like they are at war. I don't think a school like that would last long in the US.


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## Gweilo (Jul 26, 2019)

I agree with the above post, the same is becoming true in the uk, martial arts as a business, has very few government regulations, the threat of civil court action, which would result in compensation,  means training is becoming more risk assessed, and adapted to manage the said risks.


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## wab25 (Jul 26, 2019)

I meant to get back to this thread sooner... but with my real job and then vacation... I got side tracked...



gpseymour said:


> With a lot of the "floating throws", it's pretty clear they work from the point where the actual throw is. The problem is the complex and technical entry often required to get there. At the very least, you often bypass a couple of more useful, reliable techniques on the way.



This video (skip ahead to 34 seconds in... and I didn't actually watch his instruction, just wanted to point out the collection of throws used in competions) shows the same throw that I was practicing, and the same throw as shown in the video I included in post #10.






Note that the application of the throw in competition looks a bit different than in the demo with the compliant uke. Also note that the throw looks different, depending on the situation and the people involved. However, they are all doing that same floating throw. The entries shown in the competition versions are quite common. However, I do agree that many of the other floating throws, especially the arm whip type, do have the more complex type entries that you were talking about. 

My point is that sometimes the pretty demo version of a throw can still be good practice for doing the more useful application version of that throw... you just have to allow that outcome may not look the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

adamr01 said:


> Here in the US, a lot of schools adjust their intensity due to the potential for injuries, and the risk of lawsuits. To your point that intensity can vary by culture, training abroad can provide an experience free of those concerns, which can be jarring for Americans used to safer training environments. You may recall a TV series called "Fight Quest", in which they follow 2 guys who train in a given art for a week in their countries of origin. I thought they did a good job giving you a taste of what training in a martial art in the country the art came from would be like. Sometimes, like in the case of the Krav Maga episode, the training seemed particularly intense because they train over there like they are at war. I don't think a school like that would last long in the US.


My point was that it's not the origin, but things like you're pointing out here that matter. If an art starts in the US, those same advantages would still apply in other countries. And if an art has more senior practitioners in the US, that might be a better place to find high-quality partners, opponents, and instructors. Where it started will probably have a correlation, but isn't really the determining factor.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 26, 2019)

wab25 said:


> I meant to get back to this thread sooner... but with my real job and then vacation... I got side tracked...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't have included that as a "floating throw" - I think I didn't understand the term as it was used in the post I replied to.


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## wab25 (Jul 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I wouldn't have included that as a "floating throw" - I think I didn't understand the term as it was used in the post I replied to.


We consider it a "floating throw" as you float uke first, before propping his foot. No "float," no throw. But, I can see the other side as well were people wouldn't consider it a "floating throw."

The main reason I chose that throw, was the availability of video for both demo / drill versions and application versions. The outcome of the drill is very different than from the application, however the things worked on in the drill are done the same way for the application.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 29, 2019)

wab25 said:


> We consider it a "floating throw" as you float uke first, before propping his foot. No "float," no throw. But, I can see the other side as well were people wouldn't consider it a "floating throw."
> 
> The main reason I chose that throw, was the availability of video for both demo / drill versions and application versions. The outcome of the drill is very different than from the application, however the things worked on in the drill are done the same way for the application.


It's just not a term I'm familiar with, so when I responded, I was interpreting it differently. Thanks for the new terminology!


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## Invisibleflash (Jul 30, 2019)

Nice video OP...Thanks!


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## skribs (Jan 26, 2021)

@Tai Mantis Warrior what do you disagree with?


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## Tai Mantis Warrior (Jan 26, 2021)

skribs said:


> @Tai Mantis Warrior what do you disagree with?



I don’t really agree or disagree on training in other countries.. I think it might be a great experience but I’m in a North American city where there are plenty of quality schools to pick from in almost any style.
I did recently speak to someone who trained in Korea who told me it was the exact same training he experienced in his home country’s dojang.  Some styles, especially the southern Chinese martial arts, have a reputation (whether undeserved or not) for most of its masters being based outside China.

Loved the old school hapkido video.  Probably wouldn’t use those floating throws in a real fight, but it sure is fun to throw my friends around for practice.

As for your comment here:

“I'm tempted to do a post on my thoughts on technique demonstration and common critique. Sort of a Myth - Fact type of post. For example:

Myth: This only works because your partner is compliant.
Fact: If the partner was not compliant, I wouldn't be able to demonstrate the technique in detail.

Myth: This only works because your partner is not fighting back.
Fact: Done at fighting speed (instead of detailed demonstration speed) there's less opportunity to fight back
Fact: This is showing how the technique works, it will need to be modified based on the response of your opponent.

Basically, that in order to do a demonstration of a technique, you have to create a somewhat clinical environment in which that technique can be displayed. If I am trying to get a V-Lock and my partner keeps his wrist straight, there are certainly things I can do instead of the V-lock, but that doesn't help me demonstrate how to do a V-lock.”

I couldn’t agree with you more.. I clicked on the “disagree” by accident that’s been corrected..


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

That throw at 6:59 looked _very_ painfull.


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

The grandmaster had everything under his control
That is praiseworthy


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

What I also don't like is that a quarter of the video is twisting someone's arm off XD


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> What I also don't like is that a quarter of the video is twisting someone's arm off XD


Hapkido does a lot of that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> That throw at 6:59 looked _very_ painfull.


Unless I misread the motion, the stick is uninvolved until the lock after the throw (that lock doesn't look pleasant at all). The lock that leads into that throw can be pretty painful if you don't move into the fall fast enough.


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## Razznik (Feb 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Hapkido does a lot of that.


Ok 


gpseymour said:


> Unless I misread the motion, the stick is uninvolved until the lock after the throw (that lock doesn't look pleasant at all). The lock that leads into that throw can be pretty painful if you don't move into the fall fast enough.


Yes ouch


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think there's anything special about training in the country of origin, from an intensity standpoint, or even necessarily from a depth of understanding. In some cases, there is greater depth of understanding (higher concentration of highly experienced practitioners) and in other cases there's just more adherence to the traditional methods (which may be good or may not). And intensity can vary by culture (which may favor the country of origin or not) and by school/instructor.



I think iron sharpens iron. So say Thailand for example. Top fighters from around the world go there to train with the thais. But that also means top fighters from around the world are also training there.

So the perception becomes the reality.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I think iron sharpens iron. So say Thailand for example. Top fighters from around the world go there to train with the thais. But that also means top fighters from around the world are also training there.
> 
> So the perception becomes the reality.


Where this happens, I agree. Of course, it's not the case in all instances. What's important there is that the top fighters are accumulating there. If they suddenly started gathering to study with the Irish, then Ireland would be the place to go to get that level of experience, regardless of the fact that the art originates in Thailand.


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## Sabunimfrank64 (Nov 11, 2022)

adamr01 said:


> This is an educational video on Hapkido, with some excellent demonstrations.


Great video loved seeing yeag sool and dan bong  the speed throws though I could never get them all to work


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## J. Pickard (Dec 1, 2022)

lots of BS nationalistic propaganda in this. It's like Korea in the 70s and 80s (and early90s) didn't understand that scholars all over the world were capable of fact checking their nonsense. Nothing against Hapkido as an art, just that this video does a lot of far reaching.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> lots of BS nationalistic propaganda in this. It's like Korea in the 70s and 80s (and early90s) didn't understand that scholars all over the world were capable of fact checking their nonsense. Nothing against Hapkido as an art, just that this video does a lot of far reaching.


I think politicians have proven that fact checking doesn't really matter. People will believe whatever nonsense they want to believe.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 1, 2022)

J. Pickard said:


> lots of BS nationalistic propaganda in this. It's like Korea in the 70s and 80s (and early90s) didn't understand that scholars all over the world were capable of fact checking their nonsense. Nothing against Hapkido as an art, just that this video does a lot of far reaching.


"They apprehended the profound principle of vigor, which fills the whole Universe".

Basically.


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