# So Long, And thanks for all the fish



## CanuckMA (Aug 7, 2011)

The Study used to be a lively place with good debates. 

Lately there is entirely too much demented, twisted crap, mostly from the same 2 posters.

It's not fun anymore, there are not enough good threads left. I may come back eventually, I'll haver a look once in a while to see if the tone changes and look at PMs, but overall I'm done here.


Yet another good place ruined by the toxic climate that is American politics.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

Well, it was nice knowing you, come back anytime.  Maybe you could start your own threads on topics you like.  What is that saying about lighting a candle rather than curse the darkness.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Well, it was nice knowing you, come back anytime. Maybe you could start your own threads on topics you like. What is that saying about lighting a candle rather than curse the darkness.



You keep blowing the bloody candle out.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

I have to say, there are some here on the study who are regularly attacked as to the nature of their posts, their character and various other aspects of their activitiy here on the study.  And yet they keep engaging in the debate and argument here on the study.  There are over 90 different threads on the main page.  You must actively seek out the study to get to it.  you have to actively click on a thread to see what is posted there.  I have to say that if politics isn't your thing, well, that's one thing.  But to leave in a huff, over stuff that you don't have to engage in is...not very impressive.  I again wish you good luck, I hope you eventually come back, and when you do, please do those things that you think would make the study a better place, rather than complain about other people.  Of course, you can do that to.  The study is a big place for being just one thread in over 90.  It can accomodate all kinds of thoughts and opinions.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

Tez, that is hardly true in any way.


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 7, 2011)

Dude, the ignore feature works very well..... 

What's the old saying? For evil to prosper, good men must do nothing. You don't have to argue with them, but mock them and move on.


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 7, 2011)

So start a thread on any topic that interests you. Most people skip over the threads that do not hold an interest for them. You clicked on the threads that you are complaining about, so there must have been some interest in what was being posted.


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> The Study used to be a lively place with good debates.
> 
> Lately there is entirely too much demented, twisted crap, mostly from the same 2 posters.
> 
> ...


While I can possibly understand your frustration, I do not think you need fret and fuss and but rather ignore what does not interest you and concentrate on what does interest you.  Not all battles need be fought.  Even very important internet ones.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

if you REALLY cant handle reading things you disagree with, there is an easy solution, its called the ignore feature. Or you could always get used to the idea that not everyone will agree with you.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

An appropriate article that came up today:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/08/raging_at_the_dying_of_their_light.html


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## jks9199 (Aug 7, 2011)

Several good points have been made.  You aren't required to visit The Study or any other part of Martial Talk.  There are plenty of threads -- especially in The Study -- that I don't read until there's a RTM ticket on them.   The Ignore feature is available for anyone, and will greatly reduce what you see from posters you don't like.

But there's also a valid point.  The level of vitriol and animosity in The Study is climbing.  I'm not looking forward to what's going to happen over the next year -- and I'll warn you that the Mod Team is pretty close to setting a zero tolerance policy in place for the upcoming US elections.  Personally, I think it's a reflection of the general stress in US society as much as anything else.  But I'd also like to suggest that EVERYBODY, on both sides of the figurative aisle here, take a moment, and review what they post here in The Study.  Make sure you're saying what you want to -- in the way you want to.  Is your message going to get lost in the manner of the transmission?   

And let's all try to commit to discussing the ISSUES, without the rancor, cheap shots, and general rudeness and nastiness that has become all too common of late.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

Also on the table:
- Eliminating the Study entirely.
- Making it SM only.

Members have the ability to use the ignore feature.  Staff don't.
I'm also not happy with the current state of the section, and am taking some time to clear my head and make a carefully considered decision on it's future.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

supporting member only is something i would support.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

It is stupid of some to imagine that because the more intelligent and freedom loving people on here don't like the way the Study is going that it is because they can't stand others disgreeing with them. It's a smokescreen, nothing more. The people who throw out this 'oh you don't like being disgreed with' are the self same people who actually really don't like being disagreed with. It reminds me of the callow youth who when turned down for a date by a girl, hurls the insult at her 'oh you must be a lesbian'. 
It is extremely funny that Billcihak who hasn't been here as long as most should say to Canuck that he should come back anytime, as if he owned the site and as always he has that handy media link for our delectation and amusement. You really can't get much  patronising.

I said a while back that the persistant right wing takeover of the Study would drive people off the Study, a place that before had been a place of some heated arguments but also a lot of informative exchanges of lifestyles, information and educaton. I was 'shouted down', told to put people on ignore, to leave etc but why should I? To leave it as it stands, as Stevebjj says is to imply that we agrees with what is being said. Ken Morgan is correct, if we do nothing then evil indeed will happen. So no I won't leave, I won't be driven off, and I won't ignore, the posts don't upset me, they invoke no emotions whatsoever other than a desire to have all sides represented. Have your say by all means but don't start howling because we challenge them, and you do, we've had this 'leave if you don't like it' a few times now, it's getting repetitive. We've also had the 'you don't like people disagreeing with you' schtick too, I suppose it saves answering our points, especially when you don't have an answer.

What I don't think people realise is that as Canuck says, the tone of the Study is what is disturbing on many levels, it's as if some people are venting the frustrations of their lives on posters here. Political discussions can be great fun but recently the feeling that only some people are right and the rest of us are not is seeping all through the study. We don't get opinions we get links to media outlets, parrotting the same twisted rhetoric. Now I enjoy a good speech or article even if I don't agreed with the premise but twisting the truth to fit in with certain beliefs is a dangerous game to play. Saying that right wing people are all sweetness and light and all left wingers are murderers is ridiculous, no one can take that seriously. Saying that criminals and murderers are left wing because the right wing don't do things like that is silliness beyond belief. How can we have proper, informative discussion when one side believes that Botha and his Apartheid thugs were left wing and Nelson Mandela is right wing? How can we believe what some one who thought Maggie Thatcher was a socialist says? All rational thought and facts fly out the window when you get twisted logic like that.

The tone has also turned belligerant, growling at someone that they are on illegal drugs or drunk doesn't enhance the experience of having a discussion on here. Give and take with a modicum of sarcasm and a leavening of humour used to be the way here now it's growling, snarling and insults. Why would any sane person want to spend time here if they could be doing something better, interacting with people from different cultures and countries used to be a pleasure, now its a chore if we are to stop the constant flow of misinformation. And there is misinformation, one reason I do respond is to contradict the often wrong view taken of events here. The union debate for example, I don't know how unions work in the States but I do know how they work here, my father was a big union man, I also know how much good they do in many countries with education, welfare and workers rights and I know too that many union officials get persecuted for belonging to a union. To sinply say all unions are bad is to miss the point totally. this isn't the only subject to be treated like this. The point of the Study is surely so we can have a full frank *exchange* of ideas and experiences.

The other problem with the Study at the moment is that many are simplyfying things, dumbing it down. Hugely complicated issues like the Middle East are reduced to one liners, sweeping generalisations as I've mentioned already kill discussons stone dead. We have so many one line posts now you can't have a conversation, the one line being a link to a political pundit.

Do battles have to be fought? Of course they do, what you get if you don't fight back at grassroots level (that's the Study) as well as higher is a Nazi Germany, people know now in hindsight that if more had fought it then, the insidious propaganda and lies, the small beginnings of censorships ( telling us to leave or ignore) leading to worse, we wouldn't have had the rise of the abominable.


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## Jenna (Aug 7, 2011)

That is an eye opening post for me Tez.  I appreciate how you feel about this.  

My issue is not with disavowing the Study as generally I do this anyway and believe the world will hardly change by my absence from it.  My issue is not with that.  My issue is rather that this forum as I perceive it, is OVERRUN by the Study area now.  

I miss when MT was mostly about "*the friendly discussion of Martial Arts*" or whatever it used to say.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

Jenna said:


> That is an eye opening post for me Tez. I appreciate how you feel about this.
> 
> My issue is not with disavowing the Study as generally I do this anyway and believe the world will hardly change by my absence from it. My issue is not with that. My issue is rather that this forum as I perceive it, is OVERRUN by the Study area now.
> 
> I miss when MT was mostly about "*the friendly discussion of Martial Arts*" or whatever it used to say.



I know what you mean but I think you may be wrong about the world not changing with your absence. Every day we say things and interact with people in a way that may change the course of anothers life. Sound overdramatic but you don't know that the kind word you gave a stranger doesn't change their mind about somethng. You don't know that one post you make on here could give hope to someone, help them make a difficult decision or help them feel they aren't alone. 


I feel along with a few of others that we can't allow some things said here to go without being challenged, we don't want first timers here or random 'caller's to feel we tacitly approve of many of the political views here such as those on Muslims. It reflects on us as martial artists even though it's not a martial arts related part of MT.

Perhaps those of us who feel the Study is taking over could all post one (or more lol) martial arts threads to counter-act this 'takeover'.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 7, 2011)

The state of the Study and it's, gradual at first, decline into what we have now, is something that has been discussed a few times 'behind the curtain'.  

I've raised it myself more than once and the conclusion has always been the one that Tez describes, primarily, it has to be said because there is an underlying premise of freedom of speech on the site.  The problem has ever been, in my eyes, that there has been too much preoccupation with the concept of freedom to say what you think and not enough on the responsibilities of posters not to make their fellow members feel like not coming back here ever again.

A number of very fine people have done just that over the past few years i.e. not come back.  Try and recall when the last time you saw contributions from excellent posters like Exile or Kidswarrior was.  I've stuck it out because I am naturally stubborn and because, as I've posted before, there is nearly always common ground you can find with someone and, as you exchange posts, you get to see a bit more of the person behind whatever the polemic it is that first dismayed you in the first place.

Sadly, the willingness of the even "bad boys" to eventually meet the rest of us half way has dissipated.

Most of the stuff that gets people angry is political in nature and the easiest solution of all is for those posters who just want to post political stuff to keep it in the designated forum and out of the Study.  As the name implies, the Study is actually for discourse on topics of interest that aren't martial arts but are of interest to people - the emphasis is on discourse.  That means finding out what each other thinks and exploring the topic, not banging out the same tune without regard for what anyone else is saying.

As even the Cap'n has had enough of it, perhaps it is well past time for people to slow down and open their sense a bit to what a nasty place they are turning *our* site into.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

June Stats. Last time we ran them as the old report generator isn't vB4 compatible.


> *Top 9 by Threads*
> The Study (106)
> Tae-Kwon-Do (69)
> US Political Discussion and Debate (46)
> ...



I'm sorry I can't fix this. 
I'm sorry that a number of people are moving on, minimizing their participation, or flat out attacking my staff forcing us to ban them.
I'm sorry for my own contributions to the problem.
I'm sorry that I can't ban everyone that everyone has problems with outright.
I'm sorry I can't personally stop in and make things right for everyone who has a complaint.
I haven't figured out how to force people to be rational, follow some basic rules of behavior, or move past the 'anonymous internet *******' field that seems to decend too often.
In short, I'm sorry.

People bring up 'freedom of speech', '1st amendment' stuff like that.
Doesn't apply here, sorry.  You have what we allow, and we allow a lot, but it's not a USC issue.

People bring up being told to put others on ignore. 
Yeah. What do you do in the real world when someone annoys you?  Always get into screaming matches, or tune them out?
No one forces anyone to come here and be a jerk. That's a free will thing.  You have that choice.
We'd prefer it if you leave the jerk character elsewhere.

People bring up the various directional political leanings. Too right too left, to whatever.
People get tired of seeing certain posts, views, etc.
So they leave. They do a cyber "Im leaving" and wait to see who notices.
Cut it out already. You have tools here to customize your view, to balance things. Use them.
Stay. Continue to contribute to the discussions -you- enjoy.
Resist the temptation to 'peek'.

Folks, at the end of the day, this site is you. Not me. I can't make a hundred posts a day, research things, try and constantly play 'moderating presence' or 'counter point'. Sorry, I don't make enough to justify the hours needed.  Get me 200 SM's and maybe 50 GK members, and double our ad revenue and I can. Until then, part of the burden of making this place enjoyable is on our members.  When it all goes to crap, when the last SM resigns, when the last paid sponsor leaves, when the ad revenue dries up, the site will close as I'm not going to shell out $6k a year to watch tumbleweeds roll.

Until then, I'll keep the lights on best as I can, and my staff will keep trying to keep the peace.

Even if some days I feel like we're less on a forum, and more in the closing minutes of Thermopylae.
Though I wish I had Leonidas's abs.


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## granfire (Aug 7, 2011)

(damn, queen of spam again?!)


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

I appreciate ever opinion expressed. 
Even the ones that disagree with mine.
Even the ones that piss me the hell off.
If everyone here agreed, it would be boring.
We need contradictory debate.
Debate. Not full tilt personal attacks.
Disagreement is good.  Hate is not.
There's too much hate in here as of late.

I'd love to see more in the art areas.  Looking at most other sites though, we're par for the course.  Few are 'focused' on arts.
I can't contribute much to the arts though. Haven't trained in 6 years. Anything I drop in ends up being a rehash of old newb stuff, and usually withers.
I drop videos in as I can to generate discussion.  Works well on KT, not so much here, not at all on FMAT.  Weird.

Now, excuse me. I have to go see if any of the 4,000+ fargin error messages that just dumped into my inbox are important. (server load issue)
Also have to figure out what to do about a printer that's giving me grief, and the 1.5TB hard drive that just died that held most of my photo and video archives.
Today, is not my day.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

If it weren't for the study, it looks like martialtalk would be a tae kwon do site, with some wing chun posters.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

problem with separating the politics out is, everything tends to get politically charged.
You cannot discuss the mid east, with out politics coming into play.
The economy, same. 
US issues, same.
Everything goes political it seems.

We have a section for US politics.  Half the time we end up moving threads in that should be there.

Not sure what the answer is to that problem. 

Mean time, see new poll.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

dead drives are a pain. Sorry bro


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

I might point out, posts from people who disagree with me more often than not 1,536,  my posts, 339 (with a small bump because I am on vacation).  If you add in Twin fist, 730.  If you want something more out of the study that you aren't finding right now, post more, join up for a life membership to help bob out and make it into more of what you want.  Post in the other areas that you think deserve more attention.  I know for me it is more difficult to post in the martial arts section because there usually isn't so much to say about the arts.  I like this art, I like that art, what art do you do, where do you train, these types of posts just don't seem to generate a lot of repeat posting.

May I also add, if you are complaining about the posting, and are not actually paying to contribute, try joining up and helping bob out.  I'm sure he wouldn't mind donations either.  Like our honored vice president has stated, "put some skin in the game."  Everyone here likes Bob, he's a great guy, lots of patience.  Support him and his site.  If you are lifetime members, great, if not try it, you might like it.  If you are life time members and you go the extra step of donating, that is even better.  If you don't donate, try it, you might like it.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

For the U.S. thread, I sometimes mistakenly post in the general area because I forget to go into that seperate box where the u.s. thread is located.  I just hit the add a thread, thinking it is the u.s. thread, and by the time I'm done, I can't undo it other than to go in and delete it.  That might help.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 7, 2011)

Reply to Post #21:

Aye but it didn't used to be this way.  

I have made the case a few times that the political content was driving out the MA content.  It is also my belief that it is driving away new members.  

The fact that the Study is constantly bubbling at the top of the New Posts lists and only appears to contain (no dig intended) extreme Right Wing political stuff means that that is what people see when they first rock up to MT.  If I came across MT now, I'd take a quick browse around and move on.  When I came across it six years ago it was a very different story.

How *we* fix it is by deciding to change.  As the Cap'n says, he can't make people behave well and neither can the staff - indeed one of the reasons (ill health aside) why I stepped down from Moderator was because I felt I was attempting to herd cats without the aid of a cat herding device.

If *we* don't change then the site *won't *change in it's flavour or tone either.  That way lies a 'fade to black' I fear.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 7, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I know for me it is more difficult to post in the martial arts section because there usually isn't so much to say about the arts.  I like this art, I like that art, what art do you do, where do you train, these types of posts just don't seem to generate a lot of repeat posting.



Aye, that's something I've said myself {usually as a response to being told off for moaning about political posting but not posting a whole lot in the JSA forums :lol: }.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

What if you didn't list the study posts in that new posts list.  That might help.  I have to say though, the quick run down of the threads, it isn't easy to see the study.  For quite a while I didn't even pay attention to it because I thought it was more along the lines of the library thread.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

Already have the ability to focus on the Art areas.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 7, 2011)

Ahh, I thought we'd lost that with the software update :tup:.


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 7, 2011)

It isn&#8217;t left wing or right wing, or this party or that party, it&#8217;s extremism. Where you hold your point of view to such conviction, that nothing will dislodge you from changing it one little bit, facts be damned. 

We&#8217;ve had some Canadian political discussions on here, the handful of us that are Canadian and we never got that worked up about it all. Canadian politics can be as nasty and as disturbing as any in the world, so it must be how we handle it, and not politics itself. Blade for example would throw out accusations based on what I consider a skew or lack of facts on her part, I would retaliate with facts and sources to back it up. She hasn&#8217;t changed her opinions, nor have I, but she&#8217;s not on my ignore list and we chat. 

As Suk says, the JSA section is very slow&#8230;.but I think it has to do with the popularity of the JSA to begin with. If we have 2000 active practitioners in North America, I&#8217;d be surprised. I have no questions regarding my MA I would ask here, after 12+ years and my Sensei living 2 minutes away from me, I can&#8217;t think of the last time I pondered anything&#8230;.sad kinda&#8230;.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

I believe the problem isn't so much the views held as they way they are expressed and the reactions when the views are challenged. There isn't discussion, we're told we are misguided and wrong. The posting of endless links to political pundits kills any discussion, we might not agree with the poster but how much easier is it to discuss something with someone who uses their own words. I hate to point this out but while Billcihak is being so 'helpful' ( not all of us can afford *lifetime* memberships but I have a recurring annual one) he has to realise this problem with the Study (I know there has been others before but not to this extent) started with him and his constant posts with links. Often these contain so much inaccurate information or even no information. what pundits say isn't the truth set in stone, there are people here who are experts on a variety of subjects, telling they are wrong in those subjects is just plain daft.. Other posters who are on the astringent side have been always been with us and it's not caused as much of a problem. 
I'm sorry if that looks like an attack, it's not, it's an observation. It's not a call for banning, it's a call for the return to proper conversational debate rather than sweeping generalisations, endless comments of pundits ( who get paid to espouse causes) and the need to 'educate' everyone here. 

I think being martial artists tends to mean we are all probably confident people able to speak out and stand up for what we believe in, so perhaps debates on here are always going to be 'lively', they were once, they could be again. I don't have a problem with any poster here, it's probably not that way in reverse lol but I do have a problem with the way much posts are made at the moment, it's stifling to have a link that says all socialists are violent and then be branded a socialist because one disputes this. Common sense tells us for example that *all *socialists aren't violent, a discussion however on whether being a political extremist encourages people to believe violence is acceptable in furtherance of political power. Stating all dictators are left wing isn't going to cut it either, a discussion on what forces are at work to enable a dictator to be one could be a discussion. Now, why don't I post these as threads? because I know what I'll get back, endless links purporting to prove only left wing people are violent and are dictators, so whats the point of posting new threads in the Study?

That's the other part of the problem, why should we start new Study threads when we know how they'll be treated?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

then ignore him but stop trying to censor people cuz you dont like what or how he posts


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> then ignore him but stop trying to censor people cuz you dont like what or how he posts



No you are the one trying to censor people. I'm asking that people post their views themselves not via the professional political pundits. You post up exactly what you want to say why shouldn't he? Posting up so many links is verging on trolling.

I post up saying XX is the best thing since sliced bread, you will post up and say "no it's not because it's ....... and I think...." but Billcihak will post a link to Ann coulter saying what she thinks, which do you think kills the debate stone dead?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

In NO WAY have I EVER endorsed censorship in any way and YOU KNOW IT. You just like to toss out lies cuz thats all you got.

He can post all the links he wants to, thats the way it is set up, an you can do the same, you can ignore him, you can not read his posts, you can go fix some damn tea, you aint GOT to read his stuff, but that isnt good enough, you are trying to get the rules changes cuz you dont like it

THATS CENSORSHIP 

and you fecking well know it


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

you wouldnt care if it was someone you agreed with


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## SeaSharp (Aug 7, 2011)

billcihak said:


> You must actively seek out the study to get to it.


Not true. It is in my face every time I log in to the site. The majority (or entirety) of links under the "New Posts" is a list of debates about abortion, my god vs your god, my elephant vs your donkey. I'm new here so this may be a recent development. But, it appears that the most action on this site has nothing to do with training or the MA's. Maybe we can just rebrand the site "Talk" and be done with it. Or, even more accurate, "The Same Old Tired Devisive Debates Warmed Over and Wrapped Up in a Gi"...dot com.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

simple solution

just dont read it


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> you wouldnt care if it was someone you agreed with



My dear boy, throwing out insignificant insults like an adolescent who's been found smoking behind the bike sheds ill becomes you. I thought better of you, I thought you would debate the subject with the good manners Americans are known for. You disappoint me.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

it isnt an "insignificant insult"

not even meant as an insult at all.

just as  a statement of my opinion of your character.

if you think it is insulting......................maybe you should think about that

And while you are at it, ask yourself why you are ok with censorship?


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2011)

You are really hung up on putting words into my mouth aren't you? censorship no, good manners yes. If I were for censorship don't you think I'd be screaming for you to be banned? As far as you are concerned you can spew as much vitriol as you like.
What I'd like to see is more discussion not less, not what pundits think we can all look them up but what posters think. You don't see that fine, at least you say so and don't post a link. 
Telling people to ignore, not read or go away is censorship, many people consider there's problem here at the moment, some are trying to find a solution so that we don't appear to be a mouth piece for extreme right wing anti Muslim types. If you can't think of anything better than telling people to put up or shut up, that's a bit sad and very unhelpful.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

now you are just redefining words at will...

"Telling people to ignore, not read or go away is censorship"

no, it isnt, it is remiding them that they have an option OTHER than crying like a baby.

you go ahead and try to convince me that red is blue though, i will wait.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 7, 2011)

Hoo boy.  My sympathies to the board administrators who have to come up with a resolution to this stuff.  I have a comment and a question regarding the Supporting-Member proposal.  And no, they don't have anything to do with the fact that I'm not a SM yet.  

1. Regarding the Study in general and the need to even consider the SM-solution, I just find it said that so much has been caused by 2 or 3 toxic board members.  I've been posting on here for years now, and the Study's always been a source of contention, but the nature and tone of it has definitely changed for the worst.  

2. As for the SM-only solution, I'm curious how that would actually solve the issue other than by just cutting down the total number of participants.  Making it a pay-to-play setup won't do much when the people causing problems make their contribution.  At least from my perspective, anyway.  

But yeah, I lament the fact that this solution need even be discussed, or this entire thread need exist.  Sadly, that's all I can really do.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

I might add that those complaining the most seem to be the ones who are not supporting the site.  Hmmm..."skin in the game," anyone...


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> 2. As for the SM-only solution, I'm curious how that would actually solve the issue other than by just cutting down the total number of participants.  Making it a pay-to-play setup won't do much when the people causing problems make their contribution.  At least from my perspective, anyway.



It means that when someone gets way out of line and we're forced to remove their access, I'll get at least 1 "give me my damn money back" emails, or a complaint lodged at Paypal.

Someone will believe that their paying of the SM fee will make them immune to infraction and responsibility.


If anyone reading this thinks so, remember this:
- I suspended my own instructor once.
- I fired at least 2 staff who were close friends, clients and supporting members.
- I banned 2 SM's personally after they got out of line.
- The guy who bought the last 10 original MT tee shirts was banned a few weeks later.


I want to be rich.  I want to make a living running this site.
But, I won't sell the site out for a few bucks.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Aug 7, 2011)

billcihak said:


> I might add that those complaining the most seem to be the ones who are not supporting the site. Hmmm..."skin in the game," anyone...



Couldn't ****ing resist, could you?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I want to be rich.  I want to make a living running this site.
> But, I won't sell the site out for a few bucks.



But if someone hands me $100k US right now for it, I'd hand over the keys as soon as the check clears.
Then I'd go chase the Waltons off their mountain and put up signs telling kids to stay off my lawn.


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

Low hanging fruit and all.


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## jks9199 (Aug 7, 2011)

billcihak said:


> If it weren't for the study, it looks like martialtalk would be a tae kwon do site, with some wing chun posters.


This month...

But there was a lengthy stretch where the TKD section had little or no activity.  The "top art" changes periodically if not regularly.  One month it'll be TKD, another RBSD stuff, another one of the CMA, or sword arts or just plain "General Martial Arts."  Depends on who's posting, what's going on with the politics of the organizations (we once were probably one of the most active ninjutsu sites), and just the times.

I'd love to see more martial arts activity.  I try periodically to seed some threads, start some discussions in various areas that I'm interested in or have enough knowledge to get things started.  Wanna help?  POST THERE!  Talk about your art.  What'd you train on this week?  If it's generic, take it to General Martial Arts.  If it's specific... do it in the specific sub-forum.  If it's borderline, hey -- we don't have a problem with LIMITED and appropriate multiple posting.  (Usually no more than 3 duplicate/very similar threads across different forums.)


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## jks9199 (Aug 7, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> It isnt left wing or right wing, or this party or that party, its extremism. Where you hold your point of view to such conviction, that nothing will dislodge you from changing it one little bit, facts be damned.
> 
> Weve had some Canadian political discussions on here, the handful of us that are Canadian and we never got that worked up about it all. Canadian politics can be as nasty and as disturbing as any in the world, so it must be how we handle it, and not politics itself. Blade for example would throw out accusations based on what I consider a skew or lack of facts on her part, I would retaliate with facts and sources to back it up. She hasnt changed her opinions, nor have I, but shes not on my ignore list and we chat.
> 
> As Suk says, the JSA section is very slow.but I think it has to do with the popularity of the JSA to begin with. If we have 2000 active practitioners in North America, Id be surprised. I have no questions regarding my MA I would ask here, after 12+ years and my Sensei living 2 minutes away from me, I cant think of the last time I pondered anything.sad kinda.



Again, you want more activity there... share a training experience.  You don't have to throw out "So, how exactly do you hold this thing? I tried grabbing the shiny, pointy part and that just didn't work so good.  Though the docs say I should recover full use of my fingers next year, if I'm lucky and do all the physical therapy." question.  What are you training?  Have you found a good place for a hakama?  Hell, did someone do something amusing by mistake, like do the wrong kata?


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## jks9199 (Aug 7, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Someone will believe that their paying of the SM fee will make them immune to infraction and responsibility.
> 
> 
> If anyone reading this thinks so, remember this:
> ...



And Bob has been suspended himself...  Bob actually holds himself to the rules, just like any other member.


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## granfire (Aug 7, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> But if someone hands me $100k US right now for it, I'd hand over the keys as soon as the check clears.
> Then I'd go chase the Waltons off their mountain and put up signs telling kids to stay off my lawn.


:lfao:


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## WC_lun (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm not a paying member.  Mainly because I have a budget to live by and right now, spending money for a web site is an extra I cannot afford, even though I'd like to.  Does that diminish the value of the things I post?  Does my opinion mean less?

I will admitt, I don't post as much in the MA sections as I probably should.  In my opinion martial arts is something that has to be experienced to be understood.  We could talk for years about it and not get as much information and we could trading hands once with each other.  So most MA post just feel moot to me.  I will post if I think I have something o offer that will be helpful.  It is nice to have contact with other martial artist.

I have stopped posting in the Study as much.  When I joined the site I thought it was a place to discuss various view points of the different subjects posted about.  Instead I find that for some people it is just a place to put forward thier particular agenda.  Facts don't mean much and certainly other people's opinions don't mean anything.  It is just attack attack attack of anyone who doesn't agree with them.  There is no open exchange of ideas or experiences.  If you don't agree with what they post then you are just ignorant or a fool, no matter how salient, insightful, truthfull, or heartfelt the post is.  If there is no honest discusion, only vile and vim, why post...or even read threads?  If respect is not something honored here of all places, what is the point of voicing an opinion?  Even in this thread there are examples of what I am talking about.

Having said all the above, this is a great site with some great people and I am thankful for that.


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## Archangel M (Aug 7, 2011)

If you can't take the heat...


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 7, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Again, you want more activity there... share a training experience. You don't have to throw out "So, how exactly do you hold this thing? I tried grabbing the shiny, pointy part and that just didn't work so good. Though the docs say I should recover full use of my fingers next year, if I'm lucky and do all the physical therapy." question. What are you training? Have you found a good place for a hakama? Hell, did someone do something amusing by mistake, like do the wrong kata?



Agreed, good point, though in the past i have tried to get some threads going and they went over like a popular UK band from 1968 - 1980....

More attempts can't hurt.

Ya ever practice iaido? or watch it? It's like watching paint dry.....


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

Yeah, Iaido is more of a particpation thing.  Watching is nice for the first couple of minutes, then its time for something more interesting.


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## Archangel M (Aug 7, 2011)

We can always discuss the authenticity of Ninjutsu. Or maybe inheritance issues in Kenpo or Arnis?


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> We can always discuss the authenticity of Ninjutsu. Or maybe inheritance issues in Kenpo or Arnis?



You guys are trying to kill me ain't ya?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

slowly


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## billc (Aug 7, 2011)

Everyone knows that both Ninjustsu, kenpo and Arnis are pale shadows of the one true art Sinanju.

Hey, now that I think of it, where is the Sinanju thread.  I'm surprised a short, distinguished Korean gentleman hasn't complained already.


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## Archangel M (Aug 7, 2011)

Plenty of pee in martial arts forum pools too.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2011)

I do fail to see how asking someone to express their thoughts in their own words is construed as wanting to shut that person up! Seems odd that asking people to express what they mean is taken as wanting to shut them up, unless someone knows something I don't.

As for not agreeing with some posters, I might if I knew what they were talking about rather than having to watch endless videos of others talking.


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## Grenadier (Aug 8, 2011)

Material discussed in The Study will usually bring about some heat.  For that matter, if we didn't disagree on such matters, we'd be a world full of automatons, without independent thought.  

Everyone has a right to an opinion.  Even if you don't have to respect that particular opinion, you still have to respect someone's right to an opinion, and many of these posts in this forum are going to be strongly opinionated.  While some people's feelings may be hurt by the expression of such opinions, as long as the said statements are within the rules, and do not attack the individuals themselves, it's going to be considered as part of a heated discussion.  

If you don't like the opinions epxressed by someone, then feel free to attack such opinions in a civil manner.  You'll earn a lot more respect from everyone, ESPECIALLY yourself, if you can do it in this manner.  

If you don't like the heat of a particular conversation, then either grow a thicker skin, or don't partake in that particular conversation.  

If you see a clear violation of the rules, then use the Report to Moderator feature.  If it's a valid complaint, then we'll deal with it.  However, don't expect us to ban someone right away.  These things take time to sort out, and are usually not going to be finished within 1 hour... 

Furthermore, using the RTM feature as a weapon against others for slight heat, does no good.  First, and foremost, it cheapens the value of your statements (for those who don't understand, read the fable of "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf.'"), and second, it makes you look like a whiner.  



Most of us (staff and members) are martial artists of some sort.  Many of you have a good bit of experience in the martial arts.  

Although we may practice different styles, throughout the years of practice and training, it is a common thing, that we've developed a sense of discipline that goes above and beyond what your average Joe Q. Public has.  This isn't a boast, nor is based on any form of arrogance; it's simply a statement of the truth.  We can push ourselves beyond what previously conceived limits were in our minds and bodies, and we constantly strive to transcend future limits.  

I ask that everyone use that sense of discipline when posting here in The Study.  When I see posters flaming each other with personal attacks over trivial things, it sometimes makes me wonder where that sense of discipline is?  

Y'all are better than that.  I know for certain, that if someone of you eager to duel with each other on a forum, would be more than happy to sit down at a tavern, and enjoy several pints of cold beer, while discussing matters in a far more civil manner.  For that matter, anyone visiting my area who I've had heated words with on this forum (and there are several of you    ), is more than welcome to come on over, and I'll happily share a plate of barbecue and some draughts of cold beer with you.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> supporting member only is something i would support.


That would kill it. May as well discontinue it before it dies slowly.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> it isnt an "insignificant insult"
> 
> not even meant as an insult at all.
> 
> ...


I'm totally OK with consorship and I don't need to think about it.
Sean


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> It is stupid of some to imagine that because the more intelligent and freedom loving people on here don't like the way the Study is going that it is because they can't stand others disgreeing with them. It's a smokescreen, nothing more. The people who throw out this 'oh you don't like being disgreed with' are the self same people who actually really don't like being disagreed with. It reminds me of the callow youth who when turned down for a date by a girl, hurls the insult at her 'oh you must be a lesbian'.
> It is extremely funny that Billcihak who hasn't been here as long as most should say to Canuck that he should come back anytime, as if he owned the site and as always he has that handy media link for our delectation and amusement. You really can't get much patronising.
> 
> I said a while back that the persistant right wing takeover of the Study would drive people off the Study, a place that before had been a place of some heated arguments but also a lot of informative exchanges of lifestyles, information and educaton. I was 'shouted down', told to put people on ignore, to leave etc but why should I? To leave it as it stands, as Stevebjj says is to imply that we agrees with what is being said. Ken Morgan is correct, if we do nothing then evil indeed will happen. So no I won't leave, I won't be driven off, and I won't ignore, the posts don't upset me, they invoke no emotions whatsoever other than a desire to have all sides represented. Have your say by all means but don't start howling because we challenge them, and you do, we've had this 'leave if you don't like it' a few times now, it's getting repetitive. We've also had the 'you don't like people disagreeing with you' schtick too, I suppose it saves answering our points, especially when you don't have an answer.
> ...





Jenna said:


> That is an eye opening post for me Tez. I appreciate how you feel about this.
> 
> My issue is not with disavowing the Study as generally I do this anyway and believe the world will hardly change by my absence from it. My issue is not with that. My issue is rather that this forum as I perceive it, is OVERRUN by the Study area now.
> 
> I miss when MT was mostly about "*the friendly discussion of Martial Arts*" or whatever it used to say.



:asian:


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## Archangel M (Aug 8, 2011)

For a bunch of Martial Artists there sure seems to be a lot of tender feelings around here. It seems like people can shake off the odd punch to the face easier than they can shake off getting their feelings hurt. 

Then again, I've noticed that about people in general for a while now.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 8, 2011)

IMO nothing to do with shaking it off...more to do with why bother in the first place... basically the study boils down to this IMO (and this will likely get me in trouble)



> Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience



And that was not directed at anyone person it was directed at my overall view of what the study actually is all about and where I place it in the overall scheme of things

*EDIT*
Just a note, one more thing about how I feel... in the real world, face to face, half the stuff that goes on in the study would not happen. You can't hide behind the anonymity of the web in the face to face real world... and again that was not directed at anyone person it was directed at my overall view of what the study actually is all about and where I place it in the overall scheme of things


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 8, 2011)

Archangel M said:


> For a bunch of Martial Artists there sure seems to be a lot of tender feelings around here. It seems like people can shake off the odd punch to the face easier than they can shake off getting their feelings hurt.
> 
> Then again, I've noticed that about people in general for a while now.


 Agreed. It's as if we now have developed the right not to be offended. It's a big world, something, somewhere is going to offend you and your beliefs, how you answer to it defines you as a person.


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## Tez3 (Aug 8, 2011)

From my point of view my feelings aren't being hurt, my feelings aren't tender and I can take it and give it, not bothered. I get enough neg reps telling me how awful I am, but I don't bother complaining and I'm sure people whinge that I challenge their points of view, that's what debate is. It seems to me more that some don't like being challenged to justify their points of view. Challenge my point of view and I will tell you why I think like that, what my experience is to cause me to take that view, in fact I will probably bore you stupid with my whys and wherefores. I want to know in return why you think the way you do, what makes you think the way you do, why you take a particular political standpoint. That's fair and that's reasonable.


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## elder999 (Aug 8, 2011)

CanuckMA said:


> The Study used to be a lively place with good debates.
> 
> Lately there is entirely too much demented, twisted crap, mostly from the same 2 posters.
> 
> ...



While we've had our own disagreements, I, for one, am very, very sorry to see yet another voice of reason driven away.


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## granfire (Aug 8, 2011)

I have to say while I don't agree with him all the time (a good thing in general though) I do know I will miss the opportunity to learn from him.


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