# Traditional vs "open" forms for comp



## karatekid1975 (Jan 9, 2006)

Hi all. I was just watching the ISKA comp on TV (re-run LOL). But with all these creative forms popping up and winning comps, I noticed that (in this show anyways) the traditional forms beat the creative forms.

I'd like to know your opinions on both, which one you perfer, and why. 

I like the "creativeness" of the open forms. They are fun to watch. I even try to do some of the tricks. But the screaming like a cat that has just got hit has got to go. And if you watch some of these open forms, their basics are not strong, therefore their form looks "sloppy." Some are just worried about the "tricks" and not good sharp technique. Mind you, some people can do these tricks AND have good technique. I don't mind watching them (without the screaming).

But, for me, I perfer doing the traditional forms for comp myself. I rather watch a well done traditional form over the above any day (eventhough the creative forms are fun to watch).

I put this thread here, because (generally) it seems that it's the Korean MA's that do the creative forms.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 9, 2006)

hmm... deja vu 

Anyways, Wushu forms are my favorite.

Lots of flash, but they flow and no screaming.  Athleticism is definately there, and I believe some elements of creativity within strict guidelines at higher levels, although I know they start with mandatory ones.


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 9, 2006)

Hehehehehehe Andrew. This post as a slightly different spin than my post on the other forum hehehehe. But yes, I do agree.


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## IcemanSK (Jan 10, 2006)

karatekid1975 said:
			
		

> Hi all. I was just watching the ISKA comp on TV (re-run LOL). But with all these creative forms popping up and winning comps, I noticed that (in this show anyways) the traditional forms beat the creative forms.
> 
> I'd like to know your opinions on both, which one you perfer, and why.
> 
> ...


 
I tend to agree w/ you, Laurie. I think when the "tricks" are the focus of your creative form, basics get left by the side. And if you mess up on a technique, scream LOUDER. I always love seeing the traditional (usually Okinawan) forms, tho. I've never been able to figure out why Korean stylists don't do their forms in those comp. Is it the feeling that their forms are boring...or that they won't get a fair shake at the tourney? I wonder.

I think Korean forms are really interesting. In my 1st school, the only BB form I ever saw was Koryo. (I had it memorized by the time I was a BB.) But I'd never even seen Keum Gang or Tae Baek until I got a DVD for Christmas this year! I think TKD folks (as a whole) don't see forms as terribly important.


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 10, 2006)

IcemanSK, I never thought of it that way. That could be true. Thoughts anyone?


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## Henderson (Jan 10, 2006)

I definitely prefer traditional forms. But most people wanna see the spinning, screaming, and choreography. I'm still tryin' to figure out the bunkai to the helicopter toss of a staff in forms competition. Maybe it's to defend against the ninjas descending from the ceiling, eh?


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 11, 2006)

I'm curious how forms went from a part of the art in terms of a means of training and preserving and communicating the art, to a demonstation sport?

Is it that when it became a competition it was in some ways easier to do a fancy spinning move then it was to perfect and be judged by perfect footwork, good power, proper hand, soulder, chest alignment?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 11, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I definitely prefer traditional forms. But most people wanna see the spinning, screaming, and choreography. I'm still tryin' to figure out the bunkai to the helicopter toss of a staff in forms competition. Maybe it's to defend against the ninjas descending from the ceiling, eh?


 
I believe you're right about the ninjas...Or maybe its the "Smiths" from the Matrix. It really happens, ya know.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 11, 2006)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I'm curious how forms went from a part of the art in terms of a means of training and preserving and communicating the art, to a demonstation sport?



As soon as it started getting done in front of judges.



> Is it that when it became a competition it was in some ways easier to do a fancy spinning move then it was to perfect and be judged by perfect footwork, good power, proper hand, soulder, chest alignment?



How about more fun, more challenging and more appealing to spectators?

Traditional kata make for a really poor competition sport.  And most people that are against open forms make that case quite nicely.  

For example " I'm still tryin' to figure out the bunkai to the helicopter toss of a staff in forms competition."

how can you tell someones understanding of a traditional form through performance?  I've never seen the judges question the competitor on bunkai.  So if they can't apply it what difference does it make as to what techniques they are using?

In fact, if a person can't apply either, I'd argue that they are better off practicing the more athletic of the two.


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## Martial Tucker (Jan 11, 2006)

karatekid1975 said:
			
		

> Hi all. I was just watching the ISKA comp on TV (re-run LOL). But with all these creative forms popping up and winning comps, I noticed that (in this show anyways) the traditional forms beat the creative forms.
> 
> I'd like to know your opinions on both, which one you perfer, and why.
> 
> ...



While I'm pretty tradition-oriented, I don't have a problem with people making up forms for exhibitions, or whatever. However, most of the "creative" stuff I've seen on TV would be more entertaining if you just handed the contestant a couple of pom-poms before they began their routine.....


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 11, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I definitely prefer traditional forms. But most people wanna see the spinning, screaming, and choreography. I'm still tryin' to figure out the bunkai to the helicopter toss of a staff in forms competition. Maybe it's to defend against the ninjas descending from the ceiling, eh?


 
LOL that was pretty funny. Thanks for the laugh.

Anyways, I can see both points of view here. Keep them coming, folks


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## 40+TKDLee (Jan 16, 2006)

Martial Tucker said:
			
		

> While I'm pretty tradition-oriented, I don't have a problem with people making up forms for exhibitions, or whatever. However, most of the "creative" stuff I've seen on TV would be more entertaining if you just handed the contestant a couple of pom-poms before they began their routine.....


 
Yeah, what he said!  I too prefer traditional forms, if I want my ear drums blown out, I'll go to the drag strip!  Really kind of annoying when a competitor performs an agonizingly slow palm strike and screams louder and louder and louder and louder


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## terryl965 (Jan 16, 2006)

Well this past weekend we attended a open tournament and I have never heard of Modified Tae guek or Modified Bassia or Modified this or that, but we has a whole took home the medals with are traditional poomse.
That say alot to me flash is great but if your poomse are strong they can beat out the flashey back flips.
Terry


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## Fluffy (Jan 16, 2006)

Traditional..........it's the way I keep in contact with history.


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## Miles (Jan 16, 2006)

Congratulations to your and your students Terry!  I don't have any students who compete in open tournaments with the flashy forms.  I do have some students who can do backflips-they learn them in school, not in the dojang.  Nevertheless, we compete with the standard poomsae and we do pretty well.  I think strong basics beats sloppy gymnastics with most every judge.

Miles


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## DuneViking (Jan 22, 2006)

I remember back in the late 70s early 80s, I went to a tournament at Michigan State University. There was a fairly good number of competators and I was involved in watching the forms competition at the teen-pre black belt level. There was a tie for 3rd place. One competator had what appeared to be a very solid non-traditional form, thought I don't claim to know every traditional form by any means. We thought it was really spectacular to see him do a back flip, but had no idea what the application would be. The other competator had a very, very solid basic performance of Koryo. The judges asked them to give another demonstration, another form if they had it. The back flip form was repeated and the traditional person did a very solid Bassai. The judges then voted 4-1 for the Bassai competator. 

As a competator (like 3 times, lol) I stick to traditional forms. I would rather give a solid performance where I can explain my interpretation solidly.

As a judge, it can be very hard to judge other unfamiliar forms even if they are traditional, because they may be unfamiliar, such as kung-fu forms. I tend to look for good solid bases and technique execution rather than flash I can't interpret. I'll have to make a note and look for those invisible ninjas and imagine pompoms in the future. %-}


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 23, 2006)

"pom-poms" LOL that was pretty funny. Thanks. 

Seriously tho, good point. I like to hear the traditional forms win over the flashy ones, only because I'm an old fart compared to those flashy competators. My body won't do that stuff anymore. So it's good to know the traditional guy won


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## Brad Dunne (Jan 23, 2006)

Judging forms in general, can be defined within two elements. First, are the movements crisp and defined and second, are they applicable to the concepts of combat. Back flips, cart wheels, kip ups and the like, I feel have little to nothing to do with combat functionally. Now even within the realm of traditional forms, the applications can and are augmented. Example: TKD's Koryo Poomse. The opening kicks are double sidekicks done in both directions (left then right). The kicks should be at targets applicable to fighting - first kick to knee and the second to the chest area. What has happened is that judges have allowed and score favorably to those that deliver the kick as high as possible. I've seen some really gifted people go straight verticle with that second sidekick. Really looks impressive, but what practical value does it show? None in my mind. Untill the powers that be regulate the competition aspect for forms, it's going to continue to be a very questionable subject.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 23, 2006)

I was taught  that  performing a form is like telling a story.  You are trying to visually relate events that happened to you (as storyteller) to your audience.  Among other things, you mustn't rush the between movmements, that's like babbling your story, but the motions themeslves should be exciting; powerful and crisp, to excite and entice the 'listeners' of the story into the energy of the tale.  timing and pacing and rhythm

But forms are stories of combat and like a good mime who will let you 'see' what is not there, a good form performance will let you see the attacker(s), as you look at them move, as you block their attacks, as you strike them back.  If you do a move and the audience cannot see how it relates to your action against your attacker, then you're not a good storyteller.  First you must see your attackers, and as you fight them in the story, your audience will too


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## karatekid1975 (Jan 24, 2006)

FearlessFreep, that is the best thing I have heard yet. I have to try that.


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## Slippery_Pete (Jan 30, 2006)

I think they should not be judged in the same category...both fun to watch if the practicioner is dedicated and true to his over-all point in his display


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