# This Forum



## 7starmantis (Aug 22, 2002)

Hey guys, this forum is a little slow these days! Anyone got anything interesting to bring up? Any questions? 
    Here we go, has anyone heard of, visited, or trained in the Shaolin Temple in Florida? 


7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

What weapons does praying mantis have? how integrated with the empty hand are they, i.e., in arnis we say that using the knife really improves our open hand fighting.

I find the mantis styles very interesting and am happy to use this opportunity to pick your brain!


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## 7starmantis (Aug 22, 2002)

I would not expect that many have used, or at least learned effectivly all these weapons, but here is a list of the basic weapons associated with mantis sytle.

1. Double Daggers
2. Double Sai
3. Double Broadsword
4. Large Sweeper
5. Nine Ring Long-Handle Sword
6. Double Axe
7. Double Halberd
8. Double Head Spear
9. Nine Ring Broadsword
10. Double Double-edge Sword
11. Butterfly Knife
12. Flute
13. Walking Cane
14. Fire Wheel
15. Fan
16. Hammer
17. Bow and Arrow
18. Seven Sectional Chain
19. Golden Coin Shovel
20. Tiger Fork
21. Long Handle Axe
22. General Kwan Long Sword
23. Chay Yang Long-handle Sword
24. Moonteeth Shovel
25. Army Sword
26. Halberd
27. Spear
28. Snake Spear
29. Staff
30. Hook
31. 3-Sectional Stick
32. Shield

Generally you are encouraged to use a "handfull" and thats about it. The philosophy is to "master" your art. If you master one or a few weapons you have done moer than learning how to use all of them in a basic way. It is not generally conceded that your weapons forms will improve your open-hand technique, because in Mantis sytel, your hands are are used much differently, ie lots of traps, and sticking, joint locks, and the like. Plucking is a major technique that to truly master is amazing. But it is so differnet than using any type of weapon.

7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

Wow! What a list! How many forms are there for those 32 weapons? How many empty-hand and two-man forms too?

Here's something I've wondered about before. Other CMAs seem to have the same policy--you don't have to learn everything because there's so much. So, how does the complete art get passed down?


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

I don't know this term. What does it refer to?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Wow! What a list! How many forms are there for those 32 weapons? How many empty-hand and two-man forms too?
> 
> Here's something I've wondered about before. Other CMAs seem to have the same policy--you don't have to learn everything because there's so much. So, how does the complete art get passed down? *



Haha, don't get me started on the shovels! I can't seem to find a valid reason to be dragging one of these down the street when I'm attacked! :rofl:  j/k
    The list is so long because you are only expected to learn 18 of the weapons. Then you have mastered the "18 kinds of martial technique". Ok the coin shovel: 






And now the Moonteth:





As far as the entire art being passed down, I don't believe it is very often. Thats why you still see sifu's going to China to train, and still learning new forms. I think its more or less finding the people who have done these particular forms, learning those, then finding these other people who know these particular forms, learning those....ect. I think that would be the only way to learn a Kung Fu style in its entirety. Thats just my humble opinion though.

Oh, I almost forgot, there are 4 forms to each weapon in yoru eighten, so I would assume 4 for each weapon all together.


7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 23, 2002)

The coin shovel looks cool! I have seen the moontooth one before but not the coin version.

So it isn't clear that anyone knows the whole art of 7 star praying mantis? Is there anyone acknowledged as the headmaster or inheritor?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 23, 2002)

Plucking is the technique in mantis of yielding your oponent off balance. Its hard to describe.... If you were to throw a punch at me, I would not back away, but colapse my guard hand and yield my body, turning at the waiste. You punch would come inches from my chest as I yeilded. While doing that I would perform a grab on your arm above the wrist, not holding on tight, but basicaly "riding" your wrist, until you are at the end of your punch. Since you didn't hit me, your are now extended, it takes very little for me to "help" your arm continue its punch past my body until you are off balance, and as you "stumble" towards me off balance, I would simply have a fist or kick waiting for you to run into.
That probably made no sense at all! Its hard to explain, and even harder to master. But once you have mastered it, no one can touch you! We do drills with other students where one punches entirely, and the other student cannot block any punches, only yields his/her body out of the way. Its very tough!! 


7sm:asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 23, 2002)

I've had that done to me by a mantis person--I understand. It reminds me of Tai Chi push hands in some ways.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *The coin shovel looks cool! I have seen the moontooth one before but not the coin version.
> 
> So it isn't clear that anyone knows the whole art of 7 star praying mantis? Is there anyone acknowledged as the headmaster or inheritor? *



Well, the way it is looked at is that you never stop learning. So no one claims to "know" the entire system, only different techniques and forms. There are those who know all the forms, and there are a few who know all the weapons, but only very few claim that, and even then it is hard to get a master or grandmaster to claim he knows alot, he is most likely to tell you he knows nothing, and is only beginning to learn! This is the official lineage, from founder Wang Lang to present. OK the lineage wouldn't correctly on the post. Here is the link for a site that has a VERY in depth lineage list.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I've had that done to me by a mantis person--I understand. It reminds me of Tai Chi push hands in some ways. *



Yes, very much so. Man, it is really dangerous when mastered! My sifu allways amazes me when he does it to me!


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## chufeng (Aug 23, 2002)

When you get that technique down, you can lure your opponent in by leaving what looks like an opening...then when they come in for it...

:asian:
chufeng


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## 7starmantis (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> 
> *When you get that technique down, you can lure your opponent in by leaving what looks like an opening...then when they come in for it...
> 
> ...



Yeah, dangit, Sifu does that to me all the time! I'm all, "oh yeah, I finally got a solid punch in on sifu, in front of everyone", then........I'm getting off the floor!


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Aug 24, 2002)

hey im falling behind on some good discussion here!


i always describe mantis boxing as fast and cautious at the same time. although most people say that its highly aggressive, and it can be very offensive and aggressive, but the techniques can be indirect or very uncomitted.

for example: you were describing "plucking". its basically a grab, but the difference is that rather than seizing the opponents leverage point (like in chin na) you use the mantis hand which really just steers the attack away without endangering your own balance by holding on tightly.
Also, many striking techniques are applied rapidly, but without 100% power, i assume that this is also for maintaining balance.
:idunno:


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## Skarbromantis (Aug 24, 2002)

7starmantis who is your Sifu? 

And how come you only have to learn 18 weapons?

Skard1


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *
> for example: you were describing "plucking". its basically a grab, but the difference is that rather than seizing the opponents leverage point (like in chin na) you use the mantis hand which really just steers the attack away without endangering your own balance by holding on tightly.
> ...



Yeah, there is alot of focus on using your opponents energy. The grabs are exicuted in such a way to allow quick release also used to get your opponent off balance. There is a focus on saving your balance, so "feeling" your opponent is a major technique. I don't know that they are without 100% power as much as with a different focus on control of them. Most strikes are accompanied by a lock, twist, kick, sweep, something else so that you are constantly giving somethign else in case they are able to block your first attempt. I wouldn't say I'm a master by any stretch, so this is just what I have learned up to now, but thats how I have understood it so far.

7sm


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Skarbromantis _
> 
> *7starmantis who is your Sifu?
> 
> ...



I study under Sifu Brandon Jones. You don't have to learn only 18 weapons, but thats the focus. I don't know any students who do know 18 weapons, let alone more. You can allways learn more, but we focus on "mastering" before moving on.


7sm

Sifu Jones


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## theneuhauser (Aug 25, 2002)

in wah lum, we had an 18 weapon curriculum as well. many of which i train now with my new wushu instructor.

i only practiced half of them, and of those i would say i am only proficient in stick(staff) and straightsword. maybe spear.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *in wah lum, we had an 18 weapon curriculum as well. many of which i train now with my new wushu instructor.
> 
> i only practiced half of them, and of those i would say i am only proficient in stick(staff) and straightsword. maybe spear. *



Thats cool, staff and straightsword are my favorites too!!

7sm


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## theneuhauser (Aug 25, 2002)

have you tried any of the other less common weapons?

double butterfly sword is really good and fan is nice.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

I tried the fan, but I never really got it down. I haven't tried butterfly sword. I've seen it done before though, it looks really cool.

7sm


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## theneuhauser (Aug 25, 2002)

i like the heavy ones, if you ever get some for yourself, i suggest combat steel 


kwandao is pretty heavy too, monk spade even moreso, but ive never even touched one!


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

Have you ever used the hammer?
I like the look of the heavy ones, but I'm not sure how well I would do with them. Seems like I would be really slow.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

Oh, I really like the hook. I'm ok with it, but I love to watch one of my Kung Fu sisters use it, she is amazing with it!


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## theneuhauser (Aug 25, 2002)

traditional melon hammers are heavy as hell. 

when you say hook do you mean the walking stick or tiger hooks?
ive touched on both in training.


thankfully, the tiger hooks i used were not terribly sharp otherwise i probably wouldnt be on the forum today :shrug:


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

Sorry, Tiger Hooks. I love watching someone use them. It allways makes me a little nervous though! I've never touched a melon hammer, but I can only imagine that thye are really heavy!

I just stay with the staff, it is my favorite! Broadsword is pretty cool too, I enjoy it. You know what is hard for me..sectional staff. I don't know why, but it is really hard for me to grasp or something!! 

7sm


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## theneuhauser (Aug 25, 2002)

> You know what is hard for me..sectional staff. I don't know why, but it is really hard for me to grasp or something!!



youre not the only one!! 3 section is one of the hardest weapons because of its jerky nature. probably just under the rope dart in terms of technical level of difficulty.


and btw, melon hammers are hollow, so theyre probably not quite as bad as you think. i believe theyve always been somewhat hollow-i cant think of a metal alloy that wast being cast over 500 yrs ago that would have been light enough to allow for a solid melon hammer. i think bronze copper and iron may have been the only options?


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## 7starmantis (Aug 25, 2002)

Yeah, I still think I wouldn't choose the hammer as my weapon of choice!


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Aug 25, 2002)

it doesnt pack very well on those long vacations....


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## chufeng (Aug 25, 2002)

I am a little curious about the "melon hammers..."

Do you know if they were hollow? or, is that just the way they make the replicas?

Is it possible that the hammers were gilded wood?  That is, metal overlying an underlying wooden hammer? It seems that would be a bit more sturdy than a hollow ball of iron, bronze, or brass. 

I simply don't know...

:asian:
chufeng


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## 7starmantis (Aug 26, 2002)

That would be a question for theneuhauser, he said they were hollow, but I don't know about the wooden inlay. I guess its possible, but I just don't know.


7sm


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## TLH3rdDan (Aug 26, 2002)

great to see some posting going on in this forum... as far as weapons go i would have to say that i love tiger hooks... just now begging to get profficent with them... and butterfly swords are very cool to work with also...


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## 7starmantis (Aug 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> 
> *great to see some posting going on in this forum... as far as weapons go i would have to say that i love tiger hooks... just now begging to get profficent with them... and butterfly swords are very cool to work with also... *



Yes, it is rumored that with enough action here, we might get our own PM forum! *fingers crossed waiting*.

Woo hooo, another vote for the tiger hooks, I love them! I love watching someone who is very profficent with them!


7sm:asian:


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## 7starmantis (Aug 31, 2002)

So has anyone heard of the Wah lum Temple in Florida? Let me see if I can find the link....um...well...lets see....Here we are....Wah Lum Temple 

My sigung trained there for several years. They practice lightfoot techniques which always amaze me!!


7sm


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## arnisador (Aug 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *lightfoot techniques  *



I don't think I know this term?


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## KennethKu (Aug 31, 2002)

Wah Lum has a pretty garden. The temple is a typical temple. (lol, it is my personal bias that I don't particularly like to see religion being mixed with MA.  Charlatans tend to mystifiy Eastern MA with myth and religion tend to be the perfect cover. Not saying this is the case here. Just in general)

But the guy claims to be "the 6th generation successor of the Northern Praying Mantis System and 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin Temple, China"

Don't know much about the Mantis system.  

I like to see some credential of him being  the successor of Shaolin Temple in China.

No disrespect. But extraordinary claim requires extraordinary proof.


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## theneuhauser (Aug 31, 2002)

have you ever been to the temple? its not a monastery. its a school that was built in homage to wah lum. and have you ever met gm chan poi? he is genuine. the succesor term is used to describe lineage, not to state some sort of royal inheritance or anything like that. he is simply the man that brought wah lum to america, and when he got here he didnt even intend to teach martial arts. it took alot of persuasion and time by some devoted would be students before he even decided to become an instructor.


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## KennethKu (Aug 31, 2002)

Now that is a totally different story. So he is in the "class 33 " (so to speak) of the Shaolin Martial Art then ?.   Just one of the students of the 33rd generation of Shaolin then?  A day and night difference from "the 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin Temple in China".

I don't know anything about the person. 

We were just talking about the extinction of the real Shaolin Temple . ANd long and behold, lol, the 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin is alive and well , residing in FLORIDA USA!!!  lol  

Oh well.

Like I said, no disrespect. The use of the term "successor" is misleading then.  People in TKD/KT don't call themselves the ''3rd or 5th generation successors of TKD/KT"   That is where the confusion can get in.


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## Skarbromantis (Aug 31, 2002)

GM Chan Poi is the real deal, he came down and had lunch with my Sift not too long ago, his Kung Fu is amazing, one of the seniors from our school was going form for form with him , he would do 7* broadsword, GM CP would do WL broadsword, my senior classmate said it was a great experience.

Skard1


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## theneuhauser (Aug 31, 2002)

watching someone like him in action is a good reminder as to why someone should persue a lifetime in the arts. anyone can learn 90% of what they need to know for effective self defense in one day with a good teacher. but the real benefits of the arts are apparent when you see a 70+ year old guy fall into the splits and jump right out of them.


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## 7starmantis (Aug 31, 2002)

I have never had the opportunity to see him live, but I have trained with my sigung and that in itself was an experience to remeber!



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> I don't think I know this term? *




Lightfoot techniques are the practice of...well basicaly, and forgive my general lack of knowledge in this regard, landing lightly on your feet. They do things like jumping from building landing on thier feet. They say they can land on glass and not break it. they boast feats like tam tui's on styrophome cups. I don't know about all that, but I have seen my sigung put his fingers through a stop sign, and chicken stance on an empty Dr. Pepper can.   VERY impressive!


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Sep 1, 2002)

alright, ive got to learn the stop sign trick:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *alright, ive got to learn the stop sign trick:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: *



HAHA, what stop sign officer? You mean this *BAM* stop sign?


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## theneuhauser (Sep 1, 2002)

btw, 7*,

where in texas do you train?


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *btw, 7*,
> 
> where in texas do you train? *



I'm in Tyler, Texas. East of Dallas. My sifu is Bradon Jones, my sigung is Sifu Raymond Fogg. 


7sm


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *watching someone like him in action is a good reminder as to why someone should persue a lifetime in the arts. anyone can learn 90% of what they need to know for effective self defense in one day with a good teacher. but the real benefits of the arts are apparent when you see a 70+ year old guy fall into the splits and jump right out of them. *



I totally agree!! I probably will not learn anything new as far as self defense "moves". I mean like, grab this arm, move that leg, ect. But there is a multitude I can still learn for years and years to come!!


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Sep 1, 2002)

if fate ever brings me to dallas, ill look you guys up!

as big as phoenix, az is, i have not been able to find an instructor for any school of mantis boxing, kind of a big bummer. you guys are fortunate to study 7*- i think its alot more popular in europe for whatever reason.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

I think your right about 7* being more popular in Europe for some reason. Look us up if your in the area deffinatly! I'll do the same if I'm in Pheonix, I have a sister and brothing-in-law there with my first nephew!! They have allready asked that I teach him Kung Fu when he gets older!   Remind me again what style you study currently ?



7sm


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *Now that is a totally different story. So he is in the "class 33 " (so to speak) of the Shaolin Martial Art then ?.   Just one of the students of the 33rd generation of Shaolin then?  A day and night difference from "the 33rd generation successor of the Shaolin Temple in China".
> 
> ...



I don't think that the extinction of a temple neccesarily means extinction of the arts taught within the temple. The temple may have been destroyed, but that was just the building. It would be the same as your school being destroyed. Your art wouldn't become extinct as well.


7sm

7sm


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## theneuhauser (Sep 1, 2002)

thats right, elvis is dead too, but the legend lives on....



and right now i study with jinhengli from the beijing wushu team

hes great, albeit, mainly a modern wushu instructor, but he teaches a well rounded curriculum for those of us that are more traditional. now if he only knew northern pm, i would be a very happy guy.


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## KennethKu (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *I don't think that the extinction of a temple neccesarily means extinction of the arts taught within the temple. The temple may have been destroyed, but that was just the building. It would be the same as your school being destroyed. Your art wouldn't become extinct as well.
> 7sm *



Martial Artist answered this in another thread.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *thats right, elvis is dead too, but the legend lives on....
> 
> ...



I love watching modern wushu though! It certainly seems to be asthetic!! I don't know much about it though, is it the basic princliples of say wing chun just with a little bit more "show" involved? Have you found any similarities in principle between modern wushu and your pm studies?


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## 7starmantis (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *
> 
> Martial Artist answered this in another thread. *



Do you happen to know what thread it was, so I can read on it?


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## KennethKu (Sep 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by 7starmantis _
> 
> *Do you happen to know what thread it was, so I can read on it? *



http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3449&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

Oh well, I just noticed that you have already read it.


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## theneuhauser (Sep 1, 2002)

the modern wushu that your thinking of is simply a cross between traditional cma techniques and gymnastics. it came about as a result of the cultural revolution in china. its largely demonstrative and showy with little combat in mind except for the arts from which they were developed. none of these things are bad, really, its just another piece of the MA world. jet li and my instructor literally grew up together at the sports academy in beijing, learning many things about martial arts, including the traditional and combative aspects, but they were never an emphasis. it takes an enormous skill and fitness level to do it, but it's not for fighting. 

wing chun is far removed from modern wushu, and they are both wushu, nontheless. there is some PM in it, alot of northern techniques and animal forms, not the systems, mainly mimicry type forms, very beautiful to watch. 

if your wondering why the heck am i learning this stuff? its because my instructor is amazing, just a wonderful person and a great coach and teacher. take modern wushu, add some well rounded internal training and some applications and qin na and you end up with a pretty good curriculum.

but no, i do not use wushu steel weapons, never have, never will. im strictly combat steel and fat staffs until i die, got to keep it real, you know.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 2, 2002)

Thats really cool that your instructor grew up around Jet Li, I really don't have anything bad to say about wushu in that since. Alot of people will say its not MA, its not worht anything, and it doesn't help increase your skill, but I tend to disagree. It may not be as combat oriented as most arts, but the simple asthetisicm of it, the simple training procedures that you would have to endure to learn the art, I would think will help your skills. I am very interested in wing chun, in fact, I will most likely look into it before too long, no one in my area now though. 
I think thre are many different skill types to develop to be a great martial artist in the CMA. I think modern wushu can deffinatly contribute to some of those skills. And it looks like you really have to be in shape as well!

 Keep it real!!


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## theneuhauser (Sep 2, 2002)

jet li is filming a movie right now, but im hoping he will come see us for the martial arts festival in phoenix this october.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *jet li is filming a movie right now, but im hoping he will come see us for the martial arts festival in phoenix this october. *



Now if you do not post and let me know when he might come, I will be very angry and will have to do 5th Son Staff technique over the internet to you!!


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## theneuhauser (Sep 2, 2002)

hes kind of wishy washy about those types of commitments i think, i dont blame him either, but if he gives us a yes, i will let you know. it should be a great event either way. people come from all over the US and even many other countries.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *hes kind of wishy washy about those types of commitments i think, i dont blame him either, but if he gives us a yes, i will let you know. it should be a great event either way. people come from all over the US and even many other countries. *



I bet he is, it would be awesome to see him live though! 

Hey, as you have studied pm and seem versed in CMA, what do you think about the two sotries about how the different styles of pm came about(plum, 8step, 7*, ect). Do you know what I mean, the story about the differnet praying manits' the students found and they had marks on them respectivly.


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Sep 2, 2002)

gotta go, good subject, though, well try it later.


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## theneuhauser (Sep 7, 2002)

ok lets revive that topic,

i dont know much about this, its more like a fairy tale, so hopefully someone will see this and be able to shed some light, i have few facts to offer.
but the story basically tells that wang lang told his four disciples to go out and capture a praying mantis because they were so good that they could each have their own system (detect any sarcasm?). they came back with the insects and each one had a different pattern on it's back. (thorax or wings?). now, there was one with seven stars, one with a yin yang, one with a plum flower shape and one that was blank. now there were four new styles based on these creatures.

it is my belief that mantis boxing was not first a combat style. its origin is hard to tell but it definitely dates back to the early shaolin kung fu days. and its my belief(just my opinion) that many of the animal forms were not initially developed for fighting, and rather for excercise as the story of Boddhidarma tells. through fitness and the necessity for defense, the "animal excercises" translated into martial skills. its a logical progression in a lot of ways-monks need excercise, monks mimic nature, monks are endagered and they once again turn to nature for guidance.

now wang lang either developed the excercises or modified the fighting system of the mantis, and i would guess that he had something to do with the addition of the excercises. and if you examine the four hundred year gap in mantis history(after wang lang) you could guess that during this long period of time is when it underwent its adaptaions. and there were quite a few. for example, the combat system incorporated the leg techniques of the monkey (praying mantis' dont use there rear legs for much) and where did the big wheel attacks come from? thats not very mantis like.

legends tell stories that often simplify the whole account, its easier and its natural. so, no i dont believe the story as its told today, but i do believe that plum flower, 7star, and taiji praying mantis were the direct products of centuries in shaolin.


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## arnisador (Sep 7, 2002)

I've heard the story told that there is a subspecies of praying mantis in China that has seven stars on its back--is there a regular breed with that amrking?


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## theneuhauser (Sep 7, 2002)

there are somewhere between 2000 and 3000 species of praying mantids on the planet-many of which are found in central asia (former zoology major here). and its possible that there could be a species with a typical star pattern, but ive never seen one with a yin/yang on its back before.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *there are somewhere between 2000 and 3000 species of praying mantids on the planet-many of which are found in central asia (former zoology major here). and its possible that there could be a species with a typical star pattern, but ive never seen one with a yin/yang on its back before. *



It is also said that the name 7 star was given because the "decendants" of the art would be as numerous as the people who could see the big dipper star constelation. (It has 7 stars in it). I don't know what I really believe about all these stories, there is the issue of the footwork, it is taken from the monkey. So there has to have been some adaptation period for the system itself, like theneuhauser said earlier.



7sm


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## Bod (Sep 13, 2002)

> Plucking is the technique in mantis of yielding your oponent off balance. Its hard to describe.... If you were to throw a punch at me, I would not back away, but colapse my guard hand and yield my body, turning at the waiste. You punch would come inches from my chest as I yeilded. While doing that I would perform a grab on your arm above the wrist, not holding on tight, but basicaly "riding" your wrist, until you are at the end of your punch. Since you didn't hit me, your are now extended, it takes very little for me to "help" your arm continue its punch past my body until you are off balance, and as you "stumble" towards me off balance, I would simply have a fist or kick waiting for you to run into.


Ah! I've seen and felt the technique, though I wasn't aware of the name, and to me it is what makes kung-fu that extra bit special for fighting. You can't begin to explain to a Japanese or Korean practitioner what it's all about.

My Southern Shaolin teacher used to do it by rolling his arm as he twisted his waist. I'd throw a guarded punch to stay on balance but he'd just roll his arm and I would be lurching forward without feeling the pull. What skill!


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## 7starmantis (Sep 13, 2002)

Yes, it is a great skill and one that is SO HARD to master!!! I just hope one day I will have the ease that those guys do. Its an amazing way to end the fight as well!!



7sm


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## 7starmantis (Sep 19, 2002)

Ok, this thread needs revisiting again! 
I have been involved in some other threads and it has caused me to think a bit about "ground fighting". I've never really specialized in "grappling" but everyone on these boards seem to think you need to train in it to be well rounded. I feel that my system provides me with enough ground moves and evasive moves to not need extra training on ground fighting. Anyone else feel this way about their system ?


7sm


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## theneuhauser (Sep 22, 2002)

fact is, us CMA guys are not great grapplers, nor do we try to be. 

7star, i think you are a big guy like me, we dont need much ground fighting ability. if you have good technique and balance, and you know how to deliver an attack, you usually wont end up on your back. also, taiji has got to be the best antivenin to a grappler. i trained occasionally with a talented jujitsu fighter for a almost a year, the majority of the time, my taiji kept me off my back. he was also strong kickboxer. often, he said i was impossible to take down.
balance and quick thinking are valuable skills.

im sure that i could be bested on the ground by many fighters, but i could also be bested on my feet by many as well. i study what i like and choose, not according to somebody's silly formula for 100% invulnerability on the "street" or whatever the heck im always hearing.


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## 7starmantis (Sep 22, 2002)

I'm glad to hear someone say those things. I was begining to think I was a vast majority. I don't study very many ground techniques at all, and I just have never really found a use for them. I'm a big guy and I guess I have learned the "technique" of grounding. I can see what you mean about taiji too, now that you say it. The times I get taken to the ground by my sifu or someone I'm sparring with, I wouldn't have gotten up anyway!! 


7sm


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## 7starmantis (Apr 9, 2004)

Thought I might revise this thread again. Its been quite a while, but it has some good discussions on it. Re-reading it, its funny seeing how much I've learned and grown in just a years time. I've had the opportunity to see GM Chan Pui in action and I was completely amazed. We were talking about his legitimacy earlier in the thread and I didn't know enough about my own lineage to realize who we were talking about. We don't really claim CP's lineage at my school as we are a 7* school, but my sigung trained and then tought at CP's School many years back. GM Pui was actually showcased a bit in the XMA - Extreme Martial ARts show that was on a while back. His skill is almost unbelievable, even to a trained MAist like myself. Oh to have a piece of his skill level!

7sm


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## WLMantisKid (Apr 12, 2004)

Hear, hear 

I've been studying Wah Lum for a little over a month and a half now and I already love it. Took some TKD as a kid but dropped it but now im back into the MA world and it's fun. 

My Sifu was one of Sigung Chan's students and Sifu is also a really good teacher so, yeah. Just my little plug.

We do wrestling hands PM and it sounds like what we do is a little different from the plucking technique described. We do something more akin to caging the punch in between our arms, using the mantis hands to grab certain parts (all in cat stance) and then dropping straight down using our weight to literally drop our opponent to the knees. Opens them up to some fists and knees. Very amazing to watch Sifu do it.

But I can't really comment on other things, I haven't even scratched the surface of what true Wah Lum is, I'm just getting the basic Northern PM stuff right now


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## 7starmantis (Apr 12, 2004)

Yeah, we do some wah lum in our school as well. My Sigung taught under Chan Pui at the temple in florida, so we probably do alot of the same things as far as wah lum. What you described does sound like a technique we use as well as the plucking technqiues.

Wah Lum is awesome, good luck in your training,
  7sm


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## marshallbd (Apr 15, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Hey guys, this forum is a little slow these days! Anyone got anything interesting to bring up? Any questions?
> Here we go, has anyone heard of, visited, or trained in the Shaolin Temple in Florida?
> 
> 
> 7sm


This has nothing to do with what is in the quote....Do you know of any quality instructors of Chinese styles here in Elkins West Virginia or the surrounding area?  Anyone feel free to answer this for me....Thanks! :asian:


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## Tony (Apr 16, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I would not expect that many have used, or at least learned effectivly all these weapons, but here is a list of the basic weapons associated with mantis sytle.
> 
> 1. Double Daggers
> 2. Double Sai
> ...



Hi 7sm

Thats an impressive list of weapons! In my style of Kung Fu we do staff, and sword and have started to use nunchukus ( rice flails). I know my instructor is trying to organise seminars and course on other wepoans because I'm quite interested in learning about the rope dart as I have seen Jet Li use that in many of his films. This seems very practical because you can learn to use yout belt or anything else to great effect!


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## 7starmantis (Apr 16, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Hi 7sm
> 
> Thats an impressive list of weapons! In my style of Kung Fu we do staff, and sword and have started to use nunchukus ( rice flails). I know my instructor is trying to organise seminars and course on other wepoans because I'm quite interested in learning about the rope dart as I have seen Jet Li use that in many of his films. This seems very practical because you can learn to use yout belt or anything else to great effect!


Yes, I look forward to learning that weapon in particular. Its one of the hardest from what I understand. The soft weapons are more advanced than the hard weapons and the rope dart is one of the most advanced of the soft weapons. We do alot of weapons seminars and workshops but I'm trying to really "master" the basics before moving on to the more advanced. I would rather be extremely proficient with a few than just ok with many. I have my whole life so I'll get there, but the rope dart is one I'm really looking forward to learning!

7sm


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## marshallbd (Apr 19, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yes, I look forward to learning that weapon in particular. Its one of the hardest from what I understand. The soft weapons are more advanced than the hard weapons and the rope dart is one of the most advanced of the soft weapons. We do alot of weapons seminars and workshops but I'm trying to really "master" the basics before moving on to the more advanced. I would rather be extremely proficient with a few than just ok with many. I have my whole life so I'll get there, but the rope dart is one I'm really looking forward to learning!
> 
> 7sm


Wow! you two guys are nuts! (Said with much respect intended!) :asian:   That rope dart looks dangerous to the user as well as the person on the business end of it!!!!


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## 7starmantis (Apr 19, 2004)

marshallbd said:
			
		

> Wow! you two guys are nuts! (Said with much respect intended!) :asian: That rope dart looks dangerous to the user as well as the person on the business end of it!!!!


Haha, yeah my philosophy on the soft weapons is that using one of them means someone is going to get hurt. The more time you put in practicing with the weapon the smaller the chances are that you will be the one hurt!  

7sm


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## GermanMantis (Jan 4, 2005)

I've seen that there were some talking about the melon hammers. O.K. the post is nearly two years old  . I learned a form with them and guys they are bloody heavy! There are a lot of figure 8 movements and i can only do the form 1 and 1/2 time until my arms are exhausted. Realy nice weapons, but hard to handle. BTW Single Tiger Hook is also nice weapon.
 Grettings


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## 7starmantis (Jan 4, 2005)

Thats ok, I love seeing old threads revived! I haven't learned melon hammers, but I can imagine its pretty exhausting! I've seen them done many times, and it looks tough. I'm supposed to learn the single hook sword pretty soon, so we'll see how that goes.

7sm


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## GermanMantis (Jan 4, 2005)

Tell me you experience with the tiger hook when you learned it


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## 7starmantis (Jan 4, 2005)

I've done a little with it, just basics so far. Its very different! 

7sm


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## Fumanchu (Jan 5, 2005)

Are melon hammers a genuine weapon or just a training tool to be applied to using an ax or broad sword?

I don't see why you would want to use a club in battle when you can use a battle ax or broadsword.

Do you know? given that you had learn the melon hammer form?


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## InvisibleFist (Jan 5, 2005)

On the history channel they showed a fight  between an English knight and a scottsman armed with the Scottish war hammer, which is basically the same as the melon hammer.  

The Scottsman basically chopped apart the knights shield like kindling and proceded to pound his fancy helmet in!  

The fight was staged, of course but it was based on historical sources that spoke of the respect and fear that the english had for the mad northerners that went to war with sledgehammers!


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## Fumanchu (Jan 5, 2005)

Agreed. Unlike a broadsword or a battle ax, a war hammer has less chance of slipping of a smooth surface like a shield. In the old days, people also grease their shields. 

However, you need to be a big boy to do this to armour. Maybe I should go on a diet of haggis like the old days when the scottish were brave and wild. 

But more seriously, why did the chinese use 2 hammers at once? I though you would like to weild it with both hands to make each blow really count. As you're not trying to hit the target but move it out of the way, hopefully into another opponent. very useful in a battle field when you want to clear space or break your enemy's formation.

It's not like using 2 broadswords that you're making use of the cutting edge.


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