# Belt Rankings - Keeping up with the times!



## C.E.Jackson (Jun 6, 2002)

I wrote this article and posted it on my web site as a response to the need to award recognition often to students in this day and age. This ranking system would keep the "Full Black Belt" reserved for students that complete the base requirements while still awarding rank with greater frequency. 

Toss the idea around some and see what everybody thinks.
:asian: 



It is my belief that a Full Black Belt or First Degree Black Belt or ShoDan should not be awarded till a student has full knowledge of the basis of his/her Self Defense System and Forms. 

That is NOT to say that continuing education, personal skill development and advanced studies should not be required beyond Black Belt, including advanced Self Defense applications and Forms. 

I also firmly believe that a student should also be a teacher somewhere in this advancement. This teaching experience provides a wealth of new knowledge as the student must now look at the material he/she is teaching in several new perspectives in order to pass this knowledge on to others.

I am aware of the business needs however and can see a place for an updated system for recognizing a students progress through the system more often than in days past.

In this light I have divided the American Kenpo System into three basic levels.

1.	The Student Level. 

The  Yellow Belt Introducton techniques and the lower 96 Techniques. This material is learned in stages of 16 and includes the ranks of:

0.	16 Yellow (I have 16 Introductory Techniques rather than 10)

1.	16 Orange
2.	32 Purple
3.	48 Blue
4.	64 Green
5.	80 Brown
6.	96 Advanced Brown (completes the "Base" Techniques)



2.	The Instructor Level

This level includes the 48 Advanced Techniques and the upper 96 Extension Techniques. This material is learned in stages of 24 and includes the ranks of:

1. 24 Orange 
2. 48 Purple (completes the Advanced Techniques)

3. 24 Blue
4. 48 Green
5. 72 Brown 

These ranks are designated by a black belt with a color stripe the length of the belt. (Provisional Black Belts)

6. 96 First Degree Black Belt (Full Black Belt) 
(completes the Extension Techniques and completes ALL the basis for the Self Defense System and Forms 1-6)


3.	The Black Belt Level.

This level is for Advanced studies beyond the base Self Defense System.
:asian:


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## Nightingale (Jun 6, 2002)

not sure how you're counting those techniques...are you adding 16 each time?


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *not sure how you're counting those techniques...are you adding 16 each time? *



16 Introductory Techniques
96 (by 16) Base Techniques 
48 (by 24) Advanced Techniques
98 (by 24) Extension Techniques

I restart the count at each of these catagories.
Sorry for the confusion.


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## Rainman (Jun 6, 2002)

The system is already set up to do that.   154 self defence teks- up to long 5 and the various sets-  the offensive teks- demonstraited teaching ability-  grading up through the ranks pertaining to concepts theories and principles- and to top it off a written thesis.   That is just for JI.   It basically begins and ends with basics and being able to put them together effieciently in the form of combinations.  If the basics suck so does everything else no matter how much motion someone knows they will only become effective instead of efficient.   

I really think the system is pretty much laid out- the only real consideration is how many teks per belt level (both offensive and defensive).   The descrepensies in black belts are due to different standards and understandings of the basics.    If there was a universal standard set there, BB AK'ers would dominate space and time according to the usage of Concepts, theories and principles.   It couldn't be any other way.   Unfortunately that is not the case...  

I don't think a lot of deviation of Mr. Parkers written curiculum is needed.   That is just the bare bones of the system, there is much, much more besides the written curiculum.

:asian:


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## Nightingale (Jun 6, 2002)

that makes a little more sense... which techniques are you putting where?

I think my instructor has a slightly different system for what is taught when, but our ranks (White Yellow Orange Purple Blue Green Brown Black) is the same as most others. personally, I like the current system, except that I feel a little stagnated at brown belt, since my instructor has no new requirements between brown and black other than to really master what we already know.  Brown belt for us is a teaching rank, where you work on reinforcing your own skills by teaching them to others.  We learn 96 techniques as colored belts (the rest are extensions or gun defenses and learned after black belt, when hopefully we'll be smart enough to know when to use a gun technique and when to just do whatever the guy says) with around 20 or so for each belt.  I feel a little stuck right now, because even though I can see myself improving, I have no real, tangible way to track my progress like I had with my other ranks.  With the other ranks it was "ok. I know the required basics, forms, and techniques...must be getting close to test time" and with brown, its a lot more subjective.


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 6, 2002)

The Techniques are presented in the order prescribed by Ed Parker. The only difference is where in the progress and how rank is awarded. As you can see I use the color ranks for the lower half of the system and "Sub-Black" ranks also using the colors within the sub-black belts leading to solid Black Belt for the upper half of the system. There is much more to learn after Black Belt. This progress I consider Advanced" and would suggest Black 2nd - 3rd etc. as recognition for this development. I

'm NOT suggesting re-arainging the order or total number of techniques. I think the order has purpose and is just fine as Ed Parker Set it.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _
> *The Techniques are presented in the order prescribed by Ed Parker.  I think the order has purpose and is just fine as Ed Parker Set it. *



Yes, but you fail to say that it was set back in the late '70's over 30 years ago.  

I studied with him for several years until his passing.  The current curriculums is what he was "currently" working on at the time of his passing.

So I believe that he WAS updating the material because I was there and involved in it.  

You are welcome to use what ever material you wish of course but just don't say that it was with Ed Parkers approval and not date it properly.

:asian:


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## Nightingale (Jun 7, 2002)

how would you figure out which division to enter them in tournaments?  your greenbelts wouldn't have the same experience as other greenbelts, because you promote faster...

not challenging, just questioning.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 7, 2002)

Amount of time spent training in your martial art. Around here they are starting to ask on the registration forms for x amount of months or years training.
Jason Farnsworth


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## AvPKenpo (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Amount of time spent training in your martial art. Around here they are starting to ask on the registration forms for x amount of months or years training.
> Jason Farnsworth *



Now that is a good Idea!  That includes all arts ever trained in.  Not just thier current fancy, right?

Michael

So how many years for Mr. C..................hehehehehehe


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## Nightingale (Jun 7, 2002)

hmmmm....I dunno if that's exactly fair.

i started martial arts 13 years ago and have trained consistantly since then.  However because of logistics, I had to switch between Kenpo, TKD, Aikido, Hapkido, and Jiu Juitsu.   I haven't been with any of them long enough to get a black belt and definitely couldn't compete with someone else who had been training consistantly in the same style for 13 years.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by AvPKenpo _*
> So how many years for Mr. C..................hehehehehehe *



I'm just a local!  

only 31 years for me in Kenpo!

Beginning Black Belt......

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 8, 2002)

If you've been studying for 13yrs. then you should decide with your instructor if you should have on a brown or black belt.  That's when you enter a tournament. When you break it down for younger kids to teenagers some get a little scared while standing next to say someone wearing a green belt when you yellow. I seen this happen as I was a judge at a tournament. This one younger teen said I have a yellow belt & he has a green that's not fair for me. Well in the system of the green belt his belts went white, green, etc. so that person was on their second belt as well. Now I will give you a reversal of this theory. When I trained with the gentleman that was in the olympic trials he only had 2 hardcore students. They trained 7 days a week for hrs. upon hrs. This instructor only had 2 students who could take this abuse and punishment and would stay. He promoted 1 student to yellow and the other to green. When these 2 students went into regular tournaments he had them wear black belts. They placed 1st in fighting all of the time. Each of these two won local tourn., U.S.T.U  tournaments, Jr. Olymics and so on. I've trained for 13 yrs. myself come next month. "My Opinion" is whether or not you had a black in an art or not I think you should wear a black belt if you enter a tournament.


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



For clarification:
I present the Ed Parker System of 250 Technques in the order he set in Vol. 5.  The rank designation is the only thing I'm adjusting as well as adding more material to Yellow Belt.

As far as to tournament positioning... Thats not's still about right.

It should take about a year to move to purple belt (the first intermediate rank for tournaments).
It should take about a year to advance to brown 

and about a year and a half to advance to my first "provisional black".

A year in novice "orange" division

A year in intermediate "green" division

About 1.5 years in advanced "brown" division.

Thats about three and a half years to Black Belt Division.


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *If you've been studying for 13yrs. then you should decide with your instructor if you should have on a brown or black belt.  That's when you enter a tournament. When you break it down for younger kids to teenagers some get a little scared while standing next to say someone wearing a green belt when you yellow. I seen this happen as I was a judge at a tournament. This one younger teen said I have a yellow belt & he has a green that's not fair for me. Well in the system of the green belt his belts went white, green, etc. so that person was on their second belt as well. Now I will give you a reversal of this theory. When I trained with the gentleman that was in the olympic trials he only had 2 hardcore students. They trained 7 days a week for hrs. upon hrs. This instructor only had 2 students who could take this abuse and punishment and would stay. He promoted 1 student to yellow and the other to green. When these 2 students went into regular tournaments he had them wear black belts. They placed 1st in fighting all of the time. Each of these two won local tourn., U.S.T.U  tournaments, Jr. Olymics and so on. I've trained for 13 yrs. myself come next month. "My Opinion" is whether or not you had a black in an art or not I think you should wear a black belt if you enter a tournament. *



I agree! A student should be placed in whatever division his/her skills dictate and for the tournament wear the Belt Color of his/her division. - Orange - Green - Brown - Black. 
I have my students do this!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

Although you do have a point....... sort of.......  If you haven't earned one..... you best not even touch one.  I have students that have been in rank for years..... but are still green or Brown.  And that's where they stay until they move up.  Tournament or otherwise.  While they may be excellent students there is still a mysterious mental side of the Black Belt.  If you allow students to just throw on any rank they want  because of a tournament or some   sort of competition....... then what does that belt really mean.  What if that's all they want is to compete in tournaments?  If you allow them to wear black then they may as well become one for real.

I have seen many of these  "Tournament Black Belts" many  years after their tournament days are over ....... desire to start studios (most have left their original instructor for what ever reason), amazing............ what rank do you think they wear..... of course ..... the Black Belt they have  become.   

Well, now you know why there are so many Black Belts out there that may have good skills in some area but lack big doses of knowledge in others ........ because they never leaned the complete systems anyway.   Now, I said many not all...  some were also products of extremely poor instructors that promoted them and passed on the weak gene pool.   Still others, that are ego and power driven,  promote, double promote and even "Multiple" promote (several ranks at one time)  on time, money, friendship, or God knows what the criteria is, and not true system knowledge and work,   :rofl: one well known black belt even has the power to promote another to 10th Black Belt all by himself since he is so great and (the price was right) was a war hero!!   WHAT EVER!!!!!!!!!!  Each to his own.    Me myself, I really enjoy legitimacy and NOT fraud.  

But sometime I'll let you know how I really feel ...... If you ask. 

:asian:


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 8, 2002)

Mr. "C",
Do you present the Techniques in a different order than in Vol. 5???
I know you use the "16" system which awards rank in different places, but is the order re-arrainged as well???

Rank system I am now using is basicly the "16" system except the "black" ranks are "Multi-Level Provisional" black ranks rather than "Mult-Level Full" Black Belts. I reserve a "Full Black Belt for completetion of the written material (Techniques and Forms1-6).
Multi-Levels of Black Belt for Continuing studies and time in rank.

I make NO CLAIM that this is ANY ONE's Idea but my own.

I use Ed Parker's TEchniques in the order as I know them and Ed Parker's Forms. So I claim to be teaching Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Is this Improper???


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 8, 2002)

Mr. C. I can definately see your point of view. I never thought of people changing in the martial arts in that way. I'm sure that is completely possible and probably has happened. I can say that almost everyone that I have trained with has had humility in their training. The two guys I talked about in my post, after the tourn. were over they put their yellow & green belts back on and got their tails kicked in hour after hour and day after day. I haven't personally come across people in which you spoke about around here. I guess I'm kind of thinking everyone is like me. Although I don't go to tournaments anymore & think they have their place for training purposes I don't promote them, but do think they have value. Does that make any sense to anyone (I hope so). My personal thought is however if nightengale is going on 13 amount of yrs. of training she should put on a black belt for the day and take it off when it is over.  Just my 2 pennies on this subject.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 8, 2002)

I don't think putting on a belt to signify your placement in a competition catagory is to assume the rank of "Full Black Belt" in what ever your current art may be. 

Just by having Black Belt competion skills means does not mean your a "Full Black Belt." 
(altho according to Jim Harrison it does )

Competion has it's place, but in no way can signify a person's Knowledge" level.

Skill Level and Knowledge Level frequently are seperated by some distance. 

Competion Rank and System Rank perhaps should be two different animals all together.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*My personal thought is however if nightengale is going on 13 amount of yrs. of training she should put on a black belt for the day and take it off when it is over.*



I understand and value your view point, however I just disagree, My point is that her Instructor "Dave Brock" knows what he is doing with her training and I trust him with her training as I expect everyone else to do with my students...... Nobody knows my students better than me, an only I know what I have in my lesson plan for that individual... that is between us.

Here is where you need to let the instructor do his/her job.... until they prove ineffective with results.  I have a very long track record of fine students....  and intend to continue it much farther,  lol

Much respect.....
:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _
> *Competion Rank and System Rank perhaps should be two different animals all together. *



That may be something to look at!!!   

:asian: 


(altho according to Jim Harrison it does )
P.s.  who is Jim Harrison..... are you talking about the Robert Trias USKA person Shorie Ryu Stylist.....?

If so he was a fabulous Martial Artist for his style but not a voice in American Kenpo.


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Jim Harrison - Bushidokan Karate Founder
A prominate competitor in the 70's and the trainer of other prominate fighters. His system in based on Shorinryu I believe.

If interested in more information I will try to find some articals on him somewhere. 

His ranking was strictly based in competition fighting skills. He did not promote on any other criteria that I'm aware of and was widely criticised for his system. Over the years he has however gained a great level of respect for his success and the success of his students. His
His system was based in Kansas City... so naturally being from there I have more knowledge of this man than some of you even though I never studied under him.

He was kind of a "big deal" in he 70's.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> Mr. "C",  Do you present the Techniques in a different order than in Vol. 5???*



Yes, I do the 16 Technique Curriculum that we were working on with Mr. Parker prior to his passing.
:asian: 



> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> I know you use the "16" system which awards rank in different places, but is the order re-arrainged as well???
> *



Well, it appears you do not know much about the "16 Technique Curriculum" because it "DOES NOT" award rank in different place.  The order of Rank is still..... W-Y-O-P-B-G-3rdBrn-2ndBrn-1stBrn-1st - 10th Black.
:asian: 

Yes, the order is slightly re-arranged to conform more closely with the Web of Knowledge, but nothing is changed or dropped within the Base 154/5 Techniques as outlined in  Book V.
:asian: 



> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> Rank system I am now using is basicly the "16" system except the "black" ranks are "Multi-Level Provisional" black ranks rather than "Mult-Level Full" Black Belts. I reserve a "Full Black Belt for completetion of the written material (Techniques and Forms1-6).
> Multi-Levels of Black Belt for Continuing studies and time in rank.
> *



Ok, so" YOU" have changed the Belt System to Award Ranks in a different place.   
:asian: 



> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> I make NO CLAIM that this is ANY ONE's Idea but my own.
> *



Ok great, does your instructor approve of the alteration?
:asian: 



> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> I use Ed Parker's Techniques in the order as I know them and Ed Parker's Forms. So I claim to be teaching Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Is this Improper??? *



You have a right to claim anything you wish to claim.  
I never challenged that.:rofl: 


:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by C.E.Jackson _*
> Jim Harrison - Bushidokan Karate Founder
> A prominate competitor in the 70's and the trainer of other prominate fighters. His system in based on Shorinryu I believe.He was kind of a "big deal" in he 70's. *



LOL, I have known of Jim Harrison for thirty years.  Yes he was a  rough and tumble guy.  A difficult tournament fighter and a crazy brick, board and glass bottle breaker.......  Being here in Arizona with another Karate Pioneer the Late Robert A. Trias, I was able to see many of these "hall of famers".  The last time I personally saw him was up in Washington State doing a knives demo at a tournament in the late 80's.  Admirable is his record!

Still, no one that I know, anointed him to change the ranks in American Kenpo.

:asian:


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 8, 2002)

quote: Originally posted by C.E.Jackson 
Mr. "C", Do you present the Techniques in a different order than in Vol. 5??? 


Yes, I do the 16 Technique Curriculum that we were working on with Mr. Parker prior to his passing.


quote: Originally posted by C.E.Jackson 
I know you use the "16" system which awards rank in different places, but is the order re-arrainged as well???



Well, it appears you do not know much about the "16 Technique Curriculum" because it "DOES NOT" award rank in different place. The order of Rank is still..... W-Y-O-P-B-G-3rdBrn-2ndBrn-1stBrn-1st - 10th Black.


Yes, the order is slightly re-arranged to conform more closely with the Web of Knowledge, but nothing is changed or dropped within the Base 154/5 Techniques as outlined in Book V.


quote: Originally posted by C.E.Jackson 
Rank system I am now using is basicly the "16" system except the "black" ranks are "Multi-Level Provisional" black ranks rather than "Mult-Level Full" Black Belts. I reserve a "Full Black Belt for completetion of the written material (Techniques and Forms1-6).
Multi-Levels of Black Belt for Continuing studies and time in rank.



Ok, so" YOU" have changed the Belt System to Award Ranks in a different place. 


quote: Originally posted by C.E.Jackson 
I make NO CLAIM that this is ANY ONE's Idea but my own.



Ok great, does your instructor approve of the alteration?


quote: Originally posted by C.E.Jackson 
I use Ed Parker's Techniques in the order as I know them and Ed Parker's Forms. So I claim to be teaching Ed Parker's American Kenpo. Is this Improper???  


You have a right to claim anything you wish to claim. 
I never challenged that.


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## Nightingale (Jun 8, 2002)

I'm a first level brown belt right now...(no stripes...some call this first degree, some call it third)... I am not a black belt and I don't have the skills of a black belt.  Were I forced to compete at a black belt level, I'd get my *** kicked, plain and simple.  Brown belt divisions are about right for me, since I win about half the time.  My skills are brown belt level.

the problem with looking at the amount of time someone has been training is that everyone learns at different speeds.  It takes me FOREVER to learn something new...for those of you out there who aren't teachers, there are three ways of learning...by hearing, by seeing, and by doing, and although everyone can learn in any of the three ways, there is almost always one way they are really good at.  karate requires that you learn by doing, as its physical.  I, however, learn by hearing, so I can TELL you anything about how a technique has to be done, but I can't always show you. It takes me a very, very long time to learn a new kata or technique, or whatever, but once I've got it down, I never do it wrong again.

I think belt rankings are probably the best way to go, because it doesn't matter how long you've been doing it...if you're slow and just don't get it as quick, you're in a division with people at your same level.

I think some kind of national rank registry might be a better option.  all the schools that are members, as soon as they promote someone, they report it, so there's no brown belts wearing yellow belts because they want a trophy.


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## Nightingale (Jun 8, 2002)

regarding competition rank and studio rank being different...now this has merit...  I'm also a dancer, and this is how we rank Irish Dance competitions:

to move up a level, you must win 3 competitions at your previous level. Everyone starts at basic level and works their way up.  Competitions that you win because there are less than 3 competitors in your division don't count towards moving up unless you want to count them (if you're a black belt who just started competing, no point in staying down at yellow belt level just because there isn't anyone to compete with...however, if you're a yellow belt, you wouldn't want to count a competition you won by default, because that could make you move up before you are ready).

The downside of this is that these dance competitions are all part of an organization that tracks the wins.  we would need something like that...I think MARS and IMAC do something like that with tracking wins...not sure tho.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 8, 2002)

I went out to mow the lawn for a while before coming back in here to read the new posts. Nightingale I WAS NOT trying to come out to make you do something you didn't want to do, nor was I trying to say anything derogatory towards you nor your instructor.  (I took no offense to your post Mr. C.). What I was trying to do was have people look at the time in the arts. Your name just happened to be attached to your 13yrs. of experience. It could have been virtually anyone, anywhere. Nightingale I have read many of your posts and found a lot of good quality ideas and traits you bring to your writings. I am in no way a fast learner. I only know what I know and make no bones about it. Many people can kick my *** for that matter. Anyone that knows me real personally will tell you that a line that I have is "I can rattle you off a list of people who can beat me, know more, and are a hell of a lot better at it than me". For anyone to advance from brown to black belt division in a tournament 1st off should be ready to do so. This comes down to the advice of your instructor, tournament promoter, competitors in the tournament, and judges in the ring. Once again not to bring up those 2 guys whom I used to train with they just trashed everyone in the lower rank divisions. Even when they went into the black belt division they trashed people. They just had extraordinary skills, and instructor to train that way. I'm just an average guy, of average looks, and average build  that just loves the art of kenpo and anything that pertains to kenpo. Kenpo was the best thing for me to switch from my TKD days. After saying all of that can we be friends.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## RCastillo (Jun 8, 2002)

"After saying all of that can we be friends?"

Sure, as long as you don't come to Texas! This is Tracy territory! Just ask DC!:samurai: 

Just kidding! Don't start the "Kenpo Wars!"


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## RCastillo (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Although you do have a point....... sort of.......  If you haven't earned one..... you best not even touch one.  I have students that have been in rank for years..... but are still green or Brown.  And that's where they stay until they move up.  Tournament or otherwise.  While they may be excellent students there is still a mysterious mental side of the Black Belt.  If you allow students to just throw on any rank they want  because of a tournament or some   sort of competition....... then what does that belt really mean.  What if that's all they want is to compete in tournaments?  If you allow them to wear black then they may as well become one for real.
> 
> ...



I asked............, and was demoted instantly. I now have no feathers, and am still in the nest, awaiting instructions!:wah:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 8, 2002)

Texas,
According to Mr. Catherman it's too humid there for me. Maybe you should try a winter up here. Of course it's not as bad as some places though (canada for instance). Actually I still want to be across the street from Mr. C's house. That perfect weather for me!
Jason Farnsworth


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 8, 2002)

Mr. Castillo,
I actually want to be friends with just any everyone. I have a lot to learn about kenpo. Whether it is basics, self-defense, sparring, or what not. 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## RCastillo (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Texas,
> According to Mr. Catherman it's too humid there for me. Maybe you should try a winter up here. Of course it's not as bad as some places though (canada for instance). Actually I still want to be across the street from Mr. C's house. That perfect weather for me!
> Jason Farnsworth *



You got that right! I'd rather be in Vegas with you, and be a Lounge Lizard at the Casinos!

Across DC's house? Think again. The guy never sleeps, parks his car where ever he feels.


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## RCastillo (Jun 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Mr. Castillo,
> I actually want to be friends with just any everyone. I have a lot to learn about kenpo. Whether it is basics, self-defense, sparring, or what not.
> ...



Of course, me too! Now, if only DC would stop spreading those nasty rumors about me!:soapbox:


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## Doc (Jun 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I think you need to be careful. You are sounding more and more like me in some areas. next thing you know, you'll gain weight, and have trouble sleeping. Wait! So did Ed Parker.

Never mind.


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## Kirk (Jun 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *next thing you know, you'll gain weight, and have trouble sleeping. Wait! So did Ed Parker.*



That's a new one on me. Why did he have trouble sleeping?


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## Doc (Jun 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



He had a sleep disorder called "Sleep Apnea" which ultimately caused his passing.


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## Nightingale (Jun 9, 2002)

sleep apnea is a condition where you snore and sometimes stop breathing when you sleep. nowadays, its usually curable with surgery or wearing a special retainer in your mouth while you sleep.


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## Doc (Jun 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *sleep apnea is a condition where you snore and sometimes stop breathing when you sleep. nowadays, its usually curable with surgery or wearing a special retainer in your mouth while you sleep. *



Nice try but I'm afraid you stated it much to simply. Snoring is a symptom but persons with Obstructed SA stop breathing anywhere from 300 to 600 times a night for as long as a minute and a half and therefore get a minimum of Rim Sleep (depending on severity). OSA is also associated wid SIDS. There are other forms as well. It is not as easily cured as you suggest in some, and has only recently been given serious atttention as one of the most under diagnosed disorders in this country. As recently a 10 years ago, only major university teaching hospitals even had a "sleep study" department. They are much more common place now. At any rate the effect on the body emotionally, physically, and psychologically is devestating in OSA and without treatment usually leads to coronary failure from sustained stress and lack of RIM rejuvenation and organ fatigue.

Those close to Ed Parker like Dennis know what I mean. He almost never went to bed in the later years. He only "nodded" off from time to time, often during conversations or sitting on a test. He refused to explore treatment and chose to just work. In the end it took many years away from him and us.


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## Klondike93 (Jun 9, 2002)

I have a friend that suffers from SA, and it leaves him tired. I don't think it's as bad as you described though Doc, he's always sleeping!  We go hunting and I can hear him snore then stop and then shocked back to breathing again and it can be a little disturbing. 


:asian:


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## Doc (Jun 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *I have a friend that suffers from SA, and it leaves him tired. I don't think it's as bad as you described though Doc, he's always sleeping!  We go hunting and I can hear him snore then stop and then shocked back to breathing again and it can be a little disturbing.
> 
> ...



You obviously know nothing about SA. The whole point is he's NOT sleeping. No it's now that bad. it just kills you eventually as it did Ed Parker.


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## Nightingale (Jun 10, 2002)

REM Sleep - deep sleep, Rapid Eye Movement

when the person stops breathing, generally they sort of wake themselves up, which is why they start breathing again, but also why they get a rotten night's sleep.  

most people who have it don't die from it.


The Greek word "apnea" literally means "without breath." There are three types of apnea: obstructive, central, and mixed; of the three, obstructive is the most common. Despite the difference in the root cause of each type, in all three, people with untreated sleep apnea stop breathing repeatedly during their sleep, sometimes hundreds of times during the night and often for a minute or longer. 

From the American Sleep Apnea Association:

The Greek word "apnea" literally means "without breath." There are three types of apnea: obstructive, central, and mixed; of the three, obstructive is the most common. Despite the difference in the root cause of each type, in all three, people with untreated sleep apnea stop breathing repeatedly during their sleep, sometimes hundreds of times during the night and often for a minute or longer. 

Obstructive sleep apnea (OSA) is caused by a blockage of the airway, usually when the soft tissue in the rear of the throat collapses and closes during sleep. In central sleep apnea, the airway is not blocked but the brain fails to signal the muscles to breathe. Mixed apnea, as the name implies, is a combination of the two. With each apnea event, the brain briefly arouses people with sleep apnea in order for them to resume breathing, but consequently sleep is extremely fragmented and of poor quality. 

Sleep apnea is very common, as common as adult diabetes, and affects more than twelve million Americans, according to the National Institutes of Health. Risk factors include being male, overweight, and over the age of forty, but sleep apnea can strike anyone at any age, even children. Yet still because of the lack of awareness by the public and healthcare professionals, the vast majority remain undiagnosed and therefore untreated, despite the fact that this serious disorder can have significant consequences. 

Untreated, sleep apnea can cause high blood pressure and other cardiovascular disease, memory problems, weight gain, impotency, and headaches. Moreover, untreated sleep apnea may be responsible for job impairment and motor vehicle crashes. Fortunately, sleep apnea can be diagnosed and treated. Several treatment options exist, and research into additional options continues. 



~~~~~

If Mr. Parker died of sleep apnea, why do all the websites I've found say he died of a heart attack?

...not challenging, just curious, because heart attack is what I'd heard from my teacher as well.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 10, 2002)

from apnea itself....... but the effects are extreemely  hard on your heart and the root of the heart attack.

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Jun 10, 2002)

My grandfather that raised me had this condition. I can remember staying up at night concentrating on his every breath. I would prey each time that he would start to breath again. It was something that we all learned to live with. He has since lowered his weight and is diabetes is under control (Hasn't done the shots thing for years). He sleeps much better and is a nicer person for it. I think it also gave us back a few years, but his heart did suffer. He's had a couple of strokes.

jb


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## Doc (Jun 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *REM Sleep - deep sleep, Rapid Eye Movement
> 
> ...



It's like cancer. You technically don't die of cancer but it causes and organ to fail. OSA causes high blood pressure, strokes and heart attacks. The older you are the worse it gets. Everybody is not the same. Some are more severe than others. I know some who have been cured by surgery, others who have not. I know someone who has had it since he was a teenager. He wasn't diagnosed until he was 42. He had the surgery with no effect. Chances are everyone knows someone who has it in varying degrees.


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## Nightingale (Jun 10, 2002)

that explains the discrepancy. thanks


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> ...for those of you out there who aren't teachers, there are three ways of learning...by hearing, by seeing, and by doing, and although everyone can learn in any of the three ways, there is almost always one way they are really good at. [/B]



Sucks to be me.  I learn best by _reading_ and you can't get Kenpo from a book.

Peace,
Scott


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## Nightingale (Jun 10, 2002)

you probably did very well in school, though, Scott.  Most teachers teach only visually, especially math teachers.  Everything is shown on the chalkboard.  I always did very well in history and literature, since a lot of that is oral/auditory, but I was always failing math...took me til college to figure out that it really wasn't me, and that I'm perfectly capable of learning math (and I did put forth decent effort in high school, so it wasn't slacking either), it was that it was taught in a way that I was having trouble absorbing the content.  

I learn by hearing, so it takes me a lot longer to learn kenpo too. sometimes I have to stop my instructor and say "tell me what I'm doing wrong, don't just move me to where I need to be, because I'll still do it wrong the next time unless I hear it."

If you learn best by reading, take everything you learned, go home and write it down. Then you can read over it before your next class and it might help you remember.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 10, 2002)

You make our lives difficult "Night"  lol.......... now I have to go back and brush up on all my auditory skills as well as my visual... since I work mostly with the kinesthetic skills like myself....... geez
You techo paleontologists.... are so darn edumakated that us locals have a hard time relating sometimes.:rofl: 

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 10, 2002)

Man Mr. C. if your a local then what .......(dramatic pause)...........................am i.
I guess I'll go hide in the cornfields here. 
Jason Farnsworth


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Hey Scott,

I got an idea to help you out. (* It helps me sometimes *)
Pretend your blind. Now you have to read with your hands/body
and your ears. I know it seems funny, but many times if I take
out the extra sensory inputs such as vision and concentrate
on how the other person or myself is moving, then I seem
to grasp it better.  Also, I have seen where one of my students
can be shown a technique a illion times and told half that many 
times and not get it until the right combanation is made. Both
words and movement.

Just my thoughts to help

Rich


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 10, 2002)

Thanks Nightengale and Rich Parsons.

Yeah, I did very well in college -- not that it's helped my income any!  But, hey, at least I've done good stuff.

I've been relying too much on the work of others -- instead of writing it down, I print writeups off the internet and change it to be easier to read.  Shame on me.  I should've avoided the shortcut.

I'll try the eyes-closed thing.  I've done that with forms before, and found it to be very helpful with stances, but never thought to apply it to techs and other stuff.  I won't be trying that in hands-on tech work, though, for fear of sacrificing control (and my partner's nose).  

Peace,
Scott


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## Sigung86 (Jun 10, 2002)

Learning only happens in three modes, Auditory, Visual, Kinesthetic.  We all function, mainly, in one of the modes, but also in the others to some extent.

Learning is very easy and simple, once  you have a) Figured out your modality, and/or b) figured out how to model yourself into one or all of the other modes.

You folks might do well to look into Neuro Linguistic Programming.
Some really amazing simplifications and results to be had there in overcoming learning problems.

BTW ... Per the original discussion. It comes to mind that the Black Belt is exactly that.  I don't think I understand the need to divide it into almost, not quite, getting closer, Black Belts.  You either are a Black Belt, or not.  All those different divisions of the Belt would tend, in my opinion, to make it just a little more worthless.   Perhaps we could do away with Belt ranks altogether.

Take care,

Dan


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## Nightingale (Jun 10, 2002)

I like the belt rankings... if someone has a higher rank than me, it means they know more than I do and I can go pick their brain.

You're right about learning being easy once you know your modality.  My high school GPA was 2.5.  then I figured out how I learn.  My college GPA was 3.6. My grad school GPA is 4.0.  I didn't get any smarter. I just learned how to learn.  You just adapt.  In high school, I'd park myself in front of my textbook for hours.  In college, I started doing the study group thing, but still tried to book learn a bit.  Now, I don't book learn at all. If there's something I need from a book, I use my computer, record it on CD set to a rap or some kind of music or something, and listen to it in traffic.

Most of the kids that are going to do really, really well in your karate classes are the ones that are going to struggle in school, because they're kinestetic learners (learn by movment), and most of school is auditory and visual.   We had one of those guys typically branded as a "dumb jock" in my geometry class... we were doing something about spheres.  He just didn't get it.  Finally, the teacher went into her own lunch, pulled out an orange, and handed it to him.  He looked at it, looked at the formula we were doing, and looked up at her, eyes wide...."I get it!"  He just needed something to touch to make it click in his mind.

A lot of this "educational" stuff can be applied to karate... when you look at your teaching, are you hitting all three learning styles, or just one or two?  when I'm teaching, I always make sure to demonstrate for the visual learners, talk it through for the auditory learners, and do a step by step walkthrough for the kinestethic learners.  If you make sure to hit everything, you never leave anyone standing there going "um...whatwussat?"


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## Sigung86 (Jun 11, 2002)

That is very cool Nightingale!  I always teach in all three modalities.  Not only does it help the student, but it helps the instructor and sometimes, it's a great way to stretch the mental muscles.

If you're ever interested in learning great corporate applications that are easily modeled into teaching, I would recommend "Influencing with Integrity" by Genie Z. Laborde.  She's a really great person as well.

Take care,

Dan


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## Seig (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Scott,  you may not be abole to get 100% of Kenpi from a book, true; but, what you can get are some insights and explanations that will help you when you find quality instruction.  There a couple of genuine/legitimate seniors in this forum.  Ask them, i am sure that they would love to discuss any concept you come across.  Heck throw it out here and get a zillion different takes, all of which could be right or total BS, but either way, very informative and a lot of fun.

Good Luck,
Keep the blocks between you and the opponent!


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Scott,  you may not be abole to get 100% of Kenpi from a book, true; but, what you can get are some insights and explanations that will help you when you find quality instruction.  *



When I find quality instruction?  I think I've got quality instruction!  (Clint Hughes, who seems to really have his act together, and teaches through a good "line", under Sean Kelly and Huk Planas)  I'm just noting that most of Kenpo can't be relayed well except through physically doing it.

But, yeah, I like to get lots of views on things.  Disagreement can be a powerful force for good.


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## Seig (Jun 11, 2002)

I did not mean to imply that you did not have quality instruction.  I was under the impression that you were not currently working with someone.  My apologies.


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I was under the impression that you were not currently working with someone... *



No, I'm currently working with Mr. Hughes.  That may change soon, as I'll be moving to St. Louis in August and as of yet have not found a quality teacher that teaches the kind of Kenpo I want to learn.  I may have to take, gods forfend!, TKD!  Anything but Tracy's!    (just kidding around; don't get uptight anyone).

Peace,
Scott


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 13, 2002)

near St. Louis......
:asian:


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## Sigung86 (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I did not mean to imply that you did not have quality instruction.  I was under the impression that you were not currently working with someone.  My apologies. *



Not sure there is a consensus that anyone in St. Louis, much less Tracy's wants to teach you Scott!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


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## Seig (Jun 13, 2002)

OUCH!  Maybe he and Gou should get together!


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## RCastillo (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



That's it. The KENPO WARS have just started!:redeme:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Well, so much for visiting you!   

:rofl:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> That's it. The KENPO WARS have just started! *



Sweet!  Now we can be "battle tested" just like Crav Maga!

:boxing: 

I would talk some serious smack here, but I'm just a purple belt.  :rofl:


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## ikenpo (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Yeah, 

Quit while your ahead and Uncle Dan may still let you come over. In fact ya might even get to pick up on some of the Sub Level 4 stuff Uncle Dan has been working on over the past couple of years w/ Doc. 

Anyway as it goes you'll probably have to start over from white (maybe they'll let you keep your rank if your a good purple, but if it's not AK you'll be working your way back through). If your around a year from now that probably means Mr. Hughes instilled a love for the art in you. If not....well....maybe the pain of having to re-do those first 4 ranks was too much...In any case, good luck, hope you stick with it and keep your mind open to the possibilities and don't assume you can learn from only one person or one way (not that you do). 

jb:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 13, 2002)

Things will be interesting in St. Louis for ya......... :rofl:  any chance of another city...... 

:asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> If your around a year from now that probably means Mr. Hughes instilled a love for the art in you. If not....well....maybe the pain of having to re-do those first 4 ranks was too much...In any case, good luck, hope you stick with it and keep your mind open to the possibilities and don't assume you can learn from only one person or one way (not that you do).
> 
> jb:asian: [/B]



I'll be doing martial arts a year from now; the only question is where.  I have no problem with starting over.  As long as I'm learning, it's all good (I say that, but I'm still hoping I can earn a blue belt before I move   ).  I know I can learn from many sources.

The question is, if I can't continue with the kind of AK I like, should I try for a closely related art, or should I start taking ("traditional", non-sport) TKD from my brother (a 5th Dan)?

Or something else?

These are the things I'm trying to decide.


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## Nightingale (Jun 13, 2002)

well, I tried to go from kenpo to traditional TKD (non sport) and it didn't work real well. i found the korean styles just too different... a lot of the stuff you learn there will directly contradict what you learned in kenpo, so you're likely to get mixed up, especially if you plan on going back to kenpo. you'll have to change how you do things and then change them back.  I would advise you to master one style first, and when you feel very secure there, then cross train if you want.

just my $0.02


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 13, 2002)

many Korean and Japanese movements are diametrically opposed to our principles and concepts...... like base stances, methods of switching directions etc.  many "traditional" movements may have worked 60 years ago but not logical today.

:asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 13, 2002)

Nightengale,

Yeah, that's what I'm most worried about.  I actually did my first martial arts training in TKD with my brother -- one summer, 3 hours a day, 5 days a week, everyone gets a pounding.  I was 19 then; 11 years later, as I start Kenpo, I still have to unlearn my unpracticed TKD info to learn the new Kenpo stuff because, as you implied, the two arts are incompatible in just about every way.  I don't know if I want to do that again.  I know I want to do American Kenpo as my core art, but there's more to consider than just that.  He's my brother and first instructor, after all, and this will be the first time we've lived near each other.  And, his hard-core, comprehensive take on TKD may be the best stuff in the St. Louis area.  I just don't know yet (no offense, Dan -- I only know you online so far, so I can't yet compare).


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> many "traditional" movements may have worked 60 years ago but not logical today.[/B]



Truly.

My brother is an odd bird in that respect.  He is adamant that he's teaching traditional, hard-core TKD, but at the same time he'll admit the Japanese origins of TKD, and he has worked hard to do what I would call modernizing it, like incorporating boxing, kickboxing, judo, jujutsu, and other stuff and trying to make it more and more self-defence focused and street-effective.

To top it all off, when I tell him that I like the comprehensive nature of Kenpo (as a learning system that can incorporate info from many martial arts), he tells me that TKD -- the real TKD -- has all of that stuff at the higher levels (well past 1st dan).  He's a man of contradictions in that way, but a dam* good instructor.

:idunno:


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## Seig (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> That's it. The KENPO WARS have just started!:redeme: *


That's not true, they have just moved from guerilla to conventional!:rofl:


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## RCastillo (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> That's not true, they have just moved from guerilla to conventional!:rofl: *



You're trying to kill me, and after I made you look good on my Photo Gallery?


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## Sigung86 (Jun 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> * ...
> 
> And, his hard-core, comprehensive take on TKD may be the best stuff in the St. Louis area.  I just don't know yet (no offense, Dan -- I only know you online so far, so I can't yet compare). *



It probably is Scott.  No offense taken.  Press on...  I'm not in St. Louis anyway, and I suspect 50 miles would be too far for you to drive to come and see me, so it doesn't really matter.  And considering that Tracy's Karate is inferior... It's all good and really ok with everyone, I'm sure, if you study TKD.

I'll press on too... I just imagine.


Dan


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _*
> I tell my  brother that I like the comprehensive nature of Kenpo (as a learning system that can incorporate info from many martial arts), he tells me that TKD -- the real TKD -- has all of that stuff at the higher levels (well past 1st dan).  He's a man of contradictions in that way, but a dam* good instructor.
> *



I'd love to debate that one with him........... No TKD has anything like Kenpo in it unless it has been changed and added ....... 

He is quite off base here even if he is a damn good instructor at whatever.

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> You're trying to kill me, and after I made you look good on my Photo Gallery? *


Yeah, we need to discuss that _"Bugsy" _ inference!


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## Seig (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


What many people fail to realize, and I am not saying you are, is that TKD as it was orignally designed was designed for unarmed people to take people off horse back...Kenpo was designed for today's world, it's apples and oranges(er, I should probably say pineapples and bannanas)


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Well, I wouldn't expect anyone to get uptight about what little ol' me chooses to do.

I can't read tone in your email.  Have I annoyed you at some point?  If so, I apologize.  For the record, my earlier humor aside, I've never made a judgement on Tracy's material.  I don't know enough about it (though I've heard lots of stuff online).

Also, what does your last line mean?


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## C.E.Jackson (Jun 14, 2002)

For a small fee.... I offer a referee service.:rofl: 

Common guys. Can't we all be friends?

I little diversity in oppinion is a GOOD thing I think.


WOW!!! I got my "Orange Belt" for this little bit of wisdom!
I'm so proud:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 14, 2002)

also when I got mine......... it reminds me of many years ago sleeping with my belt!  LOL

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Be cool with that "Tracy" talk Scott, me and my homeys got our eye on you!:2pistols:


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## RCastillo (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> Yeah, we need to discuss that "Bugsy"  inference! *



I've just added you to our "Gang"!

Nuff said!:2pistols:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 14, 2002)

Scott may not understand your humor quite  yet!:rofl: 

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Scott may not understand your humor quite  yet!:rofl:
> 
> :asian: *



Ok Scotty, you get a "pass" this time!

All in fun, need references, just talk to the Goldendragon, he'll vouch for me! (I hope)


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 14, 2002)

Now I got you by the short hairs!


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## RCastillo (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Now I got you by the short hairs!
> 
> *



Yep, it's hard to get by those 6th Dans!


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## Sigung86 (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Yep, it's hard to get by those 6th Dans! *



Glad you guys are around to tell me when I'm kidding!  Sometimes, even I can't tell.:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Dan


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> Be cool with that "Tracy" talk Scott, me and my homeys got our eye on you!:2pistols: *



LOL

I'm cool.  I'm cool.  Don't you worry -- you'll know when I decide to start talkin' smack.

:EG: :EG: :EG:


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## Sigung86 (Jun 14, 2002)

Your pomposity is so refreshing Scotty!  Talking smack?  Indeed!
 

Dan


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *Your pomposity is so refreshing Scotty!  Talking smack?  Indeed!
> 
> ...



Glad I could help.

At my level, the best I can give to the art is a little humor!


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## Seig (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


I am sooooooooooooooooooo honored


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## Sigung86 (Jun 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> I am sooooooooooooooooooo honored *



Be advised that RCastillo speaks for his computerized virtual gang only.  We are not a real gang... We don't even have real gang colors.  :rofl:  Come to think of it... Most of us aren't really members either.

Dan "We don't need no stinkin' gangs" Farmer


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 15, 2002)




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## Seig (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Oh sure, like most of us don't walk around in mostly black with a little red.......:rofl: I finally find a home and you want to toy with my emotions :wah:
:roflmao:
:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Way to go, Dan!!!

You just blew my plan to generate some badly needed revenue.

I thought we had colors/ Tracy's Red, Black?:soapbox:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 15, 2002)

American Kenpo Black/Red


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## Seig (Jun 18, 2002)

Goody!  A fight to determine the gang's leadership!  This should be fun to watch!:rofl:


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## Sigung86 (Jun 18, 2002)

Black/red/black/red/black/red ...

Dennis in his uniform, and rolling down a rocky AZ hillside after losing his balance from laughing just a bit too hard at something that Gou has said.?

Well... Whaddaya want for dis oily in da morning?

Fahgedabouddit!

Dan


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## RCastillo (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> 
> *Black/red/black/red/black/red ...
> 
> ...



I ain't gonna go pick him up either, he's still asleep!


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## RCastillo (Jun 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Goody!  A fight to determine the gang's leadership!  This should be fun to watch!:rofl: *



DC won't come here. All I have to do is take him on in this humidity, and I've won by a knockout!:fart:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 19, 2002)

You can have your humidity

I'll stay high and Dry:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Klondike93 (Jun 19, 2002)

Or Las Vegas, Palm Springs..etc, "It's a dry heat though".

Yeah, so is an oven!!    



:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 _
> 
> *Or Las Vegas, Palm Springs..etc, "It's a dry heat though".
> 
> ...



Think I'll move to Colorado, it's cooler there!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2002)

That's my home state...... Arvada Colorado!

Sings there say...... whoaaaaa Pardner.... No Armadillos.....

:asian: :roflmao:


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## RCastillo (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *That's my home state...... Arvada Colorado!
> 
> ...



Crud! I forgot, Well, back to Texas!:samurai:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2002)

Join me young luke........

:asian:


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## RCastillo (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Join me young luke........
> 
> :asian: *



I'm sooooooooo confused!


----------

