# Indian War Club



## sl2squeeze (Nov 4, 2007)

Does anybody have one of these? 

I have the one that Cold Steel makes, and it could be a DEVISTATING self defense tool!


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## tellner (Nov 4, 2007)

Club, thighbone M1-A1

I don't have one of those, and Lynn Thompson's marketing not-withstanding I don't believe in polypropylene for this sort of thing. I do have the African equivalent - the rungu - made of some sort of unreasonably hard wood. I've also got a few Polynesian/Micronesian versions. It's a nearly perfect design for its intended purpose.


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## arnisador (Nov 6, 2007)

Looks neat!


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## Jai (Nov 6, 2007)

I do not have one, but they look like something I would enjoy.


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## Steel Tiger (Nov 6, 2007)

tellner said:


> Club, thighbone M1-A1
> 
> I don't have one of those, and Lynn Thompson's marketing not-withstanding I don't believe in polypropylene for this sort of thing. I do have the African equivalent - the rungu - made of some sort of unreasonably hard wood. I've also got a few Polynesian/Micronesian versions. It's a nearly perfect design for its intended purpose.


 
It is a nice looking weapon, but I have to agree with Tellner on this, I'm not that big a fan of polypropylene either.  The original weapons, this one is a woodland Indian design (you know Abnaki, Iroquois, Huron, etc) was made of hard wood and was the preferred melee weapon until the trade hatchet (tomahawk) became a cheap, readily available alternative.

I have always thought it to be a particularly good weapon design.


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## still learning (Nov 6, 2007)

Hello, In Hawaii alot of the clubs of the Hawaiian Warriors had "shark" teeth in them for knife edges....

Pretty cool too!  (they did not have tooth brush either)...........Aloha


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 6, 2007)

sl2squeeze said:


> Does anybody have one of these?
> 
> I have the one that Cold Steel makes, and it could be a DEVISTATING self defense tool!


What do you suppose a jury will think?


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## Jai (Nov 6, 2007)

A fancy looking walking stick?


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## Big Don (Nov 6, 2007)

What purpose does the little button shaped protrusion on the face of it serve?
It is kinda cool looking, but, I'd prefer something either less obviously a weapon or more obviously a weapon.


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## elder999 (Nov 6, 2007)

I've handled the Cold Steel "Indian War Club," .


It's a _club,_ anyway, and something of an insult....


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## tellner (Nov 6, 2007)

Big Don said:


> What purpose does the little button shaped protrusion on the face of it serve?
> It is kinda cool looking, but, I'd prefer something either less obviously a weapon or more obviously a weapon.



It focuses the impact on a small area to provide that crucial break in the skull. 

If I needed a one-handed non-projectile tool for killing men that wasn't a sword this would be it. The basic design is universal because it is brutally effective. It is as deadly as you could wish for.


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## tellner (Nov 6, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> This one is a woodland Indian design (you know Abnaki, Iroquois, Huron, etc) was made of hard wood and was the preferred melee weapon until the trade hatchet (tomahawk) became a cheap, readily available alternative.
> 
> I have always thought it to be a particularly good weapon design.



As I said, almost identical designs are found all over the world. It is damned near optimal for its intended function. The tomahawk had several advantages. Not least among them is that it's light and useful for other things. The club is a heavy, awkward piece of wood with a weight on the end. It's not useful for much else and takes up space that could be used for something else. A hatchet has a thousand uses and is better shaped for stowage while not in use.


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## elder999 (Nov 6, 2007)

tellner said:


> It focuses the impact on a small area to provide that crucial break in the skull. .


 

That's not strictly true-while that may be Lynn THompson and Rich MacDonald intended, it's something of a conflation. While ball-headed clubs could be knobbed or dimpled ornamentally, or even be decorated with a very functional carving, like a turtle, the Cold Steel war-club has adopted and updated the practice of making clubs with antler protusions-those sort of clubs were mostly for hunting, or executions. Most often, the ball on a war club was, well-a ball, and a fairly smooth one at that....Plains Indians occasionally affixed a spike or antler to their ball-clubs, but these would usually break off in combat...

...that thing is really nothing but a  (haha!) _pale_ imitation of a real ball-headed club


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## tellner (Nov 7, 2007)

Maybe not for the plains club. But if you look at a lot of Polynesian and African ones of similar design they have the a button or spike for just that purpose. Cold Steel is going more with that design than strictly with the Plains Indians version. And there were certainly nations in the Americas which used clubs with stout skull-breaker pieces.


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## Carol (Nov 7, 2007)

Yup.  That small piece is like the weapon having its own kubotan.  Concentrates force on to a tiny point get better penetrating power.

Throw some scrap ceiling tile down on the floor.  A 200 pound man walking across it in athletic shoes will barely cave the surface.  A 120 pound woman walking across it in stilettoes will create deep holes in the tile.   Concentration of force.


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## tellner (Nov 7, 2007)

And there's something just so primal and satisfying about it 

You can make one that's just as good if not better cheaply. Maple, hawthorn, blackthorn, anything tough with a root ball can be turned into a rungu, shillelagh or whatever name you want to call it. Properly cured it will last a lifetime. Well, one of yours. It could outlast several bad guys :whip:


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## elder999 (Nov 7, 2007)

tellner said:


> Maybe not for the plains club. But if you look at a lot of Polynesian and African ones of similar design they have the a button or spike for just that purpose.


 
Before the coming of the Europeans, Plains warfare was more about "counting coup" than splitting skulls, though it did happen. It also had pretty much progressed to a mounted affair, so Plains clubs are straighter, not curved-they did sometimes have spikes on them, though-like I said, they weren't durable. Eastern and Southern tribes were more known for the ball-headed club of the type Cold Steel is trying to acheive, but generally-as I said earlier, without the protrusion. They did have clubs with spikes made of antlers, but, like I said earlier, those were more for hunting and executions than combat....

Maybe Cold Steel should have called it a Polynesian or African war club, and not an _Indian_ one...


Anyway, if you look at the end of  this post , you'll see a much more authentic, though made in this century, ball-club of the Woodland Indians, and if you read it, you'll see why that thing is _nothing_ like one. You can also see an authentic Iroquois war club  here .

And here's an authentic Plains Indian ball club, so you can see that it's not exactly like one of those:


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## elder999 (Nov 7, 2007)

tellner said:


> And there's something just so primal and satisfying about it
> 
> You can make one that's just as good if not better cheaply. Maple, hawthorn, blackthorn, anything tough with a root ball can be turned into a rungu, shillelagh or whatever name you want to call it. Properly cured it will last a lifetime. Well, one of yours. It could outlast several bad guys :whip:


 
Too true, but a cane is so much more utile, and inocuous....


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## Cryozombie (Nov 7, 2007)

It's neat and all, but Ill stick with my old standby.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 7, 2007)

For merely cursiosities sake I have* several* Native American clubs from different tribes.  Nice design and functional for what it was intended for.  Still a Tomahawk is a much more effective tool and that is why this type of club became basically obsolete.  Something about the synthetic material of cold steels versioin just does not sit well with me though and I generally like Cold Steel products; ie. durability and reasonable price.


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## Grenadier (Nov 7, 2007)

Ah, the Indian War Club...

A more primitive version of the mace used in Europe, for certain, but one would be foolish to underestimate its strength.  

I've seen a good number of these that use very, very dense woods on the spherical part.  I've even known of one war club fancier (not an insult; he actually takes that term with a beaming smile of pride) who made his own club head with a ball of Lignum Vitae (the most dense wood in the world; sinks in water easily, and very, very, very, hard).  That, plus the wood is essentially so packed with its own oil, that it never needs oiling (some people actually use this to make ball bearings).  

Think of it this way...  Many of those heavy balls they use in the game of Cricket are made of Lignum Vitae.  Imagine getting conked on the head by one of these.  Now imagine getting conked on the head by one of these attached to a stick that increases the force applied.  

I can tell you, I'd rather get hit by a baseball bat, than by one of these war clubs with a Lignum Vitae head.


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 7, 2007)

I have to ask.

What sort of scenario do people envision themselves in using some of these weapons? I like weapons as much as the next guy and I have some of those Cold Steel catelogues with the "war clubs" the tomahawks, spears, throwing "torpedoes", swords, etc. etc. but I have to wonder, is this marketing of "defense tools" realistic? Is anybody going to the supermarket with a Zulu spear? Do you go hiking through the park with an "Indian war club" slung at your hip? Maybe you do, I dont know, but it seems to me this is about selling product than anything else. And those buying them are either doing it as collectors, hobbists, or fantasisers (sp?). 

So, if you have purchased some of this stuff for "self protection" how do you employ them? Are they by the front door for home defense, in your car, are you a serviceman who has taken them to the battlefield, do you carry one to the corner store when you buy your beer? 

Just to clarify, Im not saying that these tools are "evil "or should be outlawed or that you are somehow "flawed" if you buy them. Im just addressing the "wouldnt this be a great self defense weapon?" issue. Besides my firearms and some training sticks and blades, all I have is a couple of sheathed blades that typically see action (these days) as hunting/camping tools and a couple of pocket folders for daily carry. I have a display Katana that is currently wrapped up in a corner somewhere just cause I wanted it. But while I may like or want that cold steel "War Axe", Im not a collector and have no place to display it and I just dont see where I would ever need or use it.


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## elder999 (Nov 7, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> I have to ask.
> 
> What sort of scenario do people envision themselves in using some of these weapons? I like weapons as much as the next guy and I have some of those Cold Steel catelogues with the "war clubs" the tomahawks, spears, throwing "torpedoes", swords, etc. etc. but I have to wonder, is this marketing of "defense tools" realistic? Is anybody going to the supermarket with a Zulu spear? Do you go hiking through the park with an "Indian war club" slung at your hip? Maybe you do, I dont know, but it seems to me this is about selling product than anything else. And those buying them are either doing it as collectors, hobbists, or fantasisers (sp?).
> 
> ...


 
Well, I have a few Cold Steel products-they are, with the exception of a cane, mostly for fun-fun to throw, fun to flail, fun to whatever...I have several authentic war clubs, and, while I "practice" with them from time to time, I'd never carry one about, except in a display case to Indian Market, or to drop off to someone who had bought one...something I haven't done in quite a few years...I always have a knife on me, or a Mont Blanc pen, and if I really have reason to be armed, I carry a Glock...this particular Cold Steel product, however, is just not very good: wrong weight, too smooth, wrong curve, and it comes with a metal horn to fit over that knob-just asking for charges with that....and it's as ugly as a mud fence...


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## tellner (Nov 7, 2007)

elder999 said:


> Before the coming of the Europeans, Plains warfare was more about "counting coup" than splitting skulls, though it did happen. It also had pretty much progressed to a mounted affair,


Err, no. The horse may have evolved in the Americas, but it was long extinct. It was re-introduced by Europeans.



> Anyway, if you look at the end of  this post , you'll see a much more authentic, though made in this century, ball-club of the Woodland Indians, and if you read it, you'll see why that thing is _nothing_ like one. You can also see an authentic Iroquois war club  here .
> 
> And here's an authentic Plains Indian ball club, so you can see that it's not exactly like one of those:


Very nice pics, especially the one from the American history site. 

Here is a picture of a pair of rungus in the style that an older Maasai man might carry, a couple of more workmanlike everyday rungus and a couple examples that wouldn't be out of place as walking sticks. In fact, there's a number of people making walking sticks that just happen to look a lot like them. The skull-breaker, when present, is small.


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## elder999 (Nov 7, 2007)

tellner said:


> Err, no. The horse may have evolved in the Americas, but it was long extinct. It was re-introduced by Europeans.
> .


 
Yeah, perhaps I should have said "before the westward expansion of the Americans."


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## tellner (Nov 7, 2007)

Grenadier said:


> Ah, the Indian War Club...
> 
> A more primitive version of the mace used in Europe, for certain, but one would be foolish to underestimate its strength.



Primitive? I don't know about that. Made of wood instead of metal, certainly. But "primitive" has some serious negative associations. And the design is damned near perfect for its intended purpose. As far as it goes, the mace isn't particularly European. They are found everywhere in every time from beautiful round-headed alabaster ones in ancient Egypt to specialized tulwar-hilted horseman's maces in India.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 7, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> I have to ask.
> 
> What sort of scenario do people envision themselves in using some of these weapons? I like weapons as much as the next guy and I have some of those Cold Steel catelogues with the "war clubs" the tomahawks, spears, throwing "torpedoes", swords, etc. etc. but I have to wonder, is this marketing of "defense tools" realistic? Is anybody going to the supermarket with a Zulu spear? Do you go hiking through the park with an "Indian war club" slung at your hip? Maybe you do, I dont know, but it seems to me this is about selling product than anything else. And those buying them are either doing it as collectors, hobbists, or fantasisers (sp?).
> 
> ...


 
This stuff is definately interesting and could be useful in the right circumstances.  However, I will be working with 21st century implements myself for self defense and personal protection purposes, ie: firearms, knifes, blunt objects, etc......

Still it is interesting...


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## Kreth (Nov 7, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> So, if you have purchased some of this stuff for "self protection" how do you employ them? Are they by the front door for home defense, in your car, are you a serviceman who has taken them to the battlefield, do you carry one to the corner store when you buy your beer?


I have some similar stuff in my collection that I occasionally train with: assegai, sjambok, war hammer, cane, kusari fundo; various swords, sticks, and knives. Mainly for display/coversation pieces, but tactics are applicable to similar objects. A thrust with an assegai can be applied with a pool cue, for example.
And God help the poor bastard that ever breaks into my apartment. "I was terrified, officer, so I just grabbed this spiked war hammer from the wall to try and fend the scary, big man off..."


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## tellner (Nov 7, 2007)

Blotan Hunka said:


> I have to ask.
> 
> What sort of scenario do people envision themselves in using some of these weapons? I like weapons as much as the next guy and I have some of those Cold Steel catelogues with the "war clubs" the tomahawks, spears, throwing "torpedoes", swords, etc. etc. but I have to wonder, is this marketing of "defense tools" realistic? Is anybody going to the supermarket with a Zulu spear? Do you go hiking through the park with an "Indian war club" slung at your hip? Maybe you do, I dont know, but it seems to me this is about selling product than anything else. And those buying them are either doing it as collectors, hobbists, or fantasisers (sp?).


Of course it's about selling stuff. Most of the self defense market is about fantasies and dreams. Why else do the make black-coated knives with names like the CQB MilSpecOps DuMoFo Mark XXX Eviscerator with special Sentry Removal geometry? For that matter, unless you're a diamond courier or live in Beirut and commute to Baghdad who needs forty six rounds of JHP, two knives and a club for personal protection?

It's all about image. The world is dangerous. You take your Big Potent Object of Power and fight the Bad Man. You are safe. You get status and breeding rights. It's a lot like the SCA or the BDSM scene. Except that if you spent the money on funny clothes for either of those two you'd be more likely to actually find a girl to sleep with 

Some of us are up front about our fetishes. I just plain like weapons as a collector and a martial artist. I've already got a wife, and I'm well equipped for any sort of self defense situation I'm likely to encounter. Past that it's just a hobby. Some people have more money to spend on their hobby and buy WWII era smachets and the kind of katana that needs to be sent to Japan for polishing. Others make do with Museum Replicas and Cold Steel, although some of that stuff is pricey. 



> Just to clarify, Im not saying that these tools are "evil "or should be outlawed or that you are somehow "flawed" if you buy them. Im just addressing the "wouldnt this be a great self defense weapon?" issue. Besides my firearms and some training sticks and blades, all I have is a couple of sheathed blades that typically see action (these days) as hunting/camping tools and a couple of pocket folders for daily carry. I have a display Katana that is currently wrapped up in a corner somewhere just cause I wanted it. But while I may like or want that cold steel "War Axe", Im not a collector and have no place to display it and I just dont see where I would ever need or use it.



They're toys. Toys are fun. What more justification does anyone need? I know someone who carries around Lynn Thompson's African Walking Stick which isn't African and isn't a great walking stick even though it looks cool. He says that it's a "Traditional African Personal Relaxation Device". Take a look at the picture, and it's pretty near-fetched


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## Blotan Hunka (Nov 7, 2007)

tellner said:


> It's all about image. The world is dangerous. You take your Big Potent Object of Power and fight the Bad Man. You are safe. You get status and breeding rights. It's a lot like the SCA or the BDSM scene. Except that if you spent the money on funny clothes for either of those two you'd be more likely to actually find a girl to sleep with
> 
> Some of us are up front about our fetishes. I just plain like weapons as a collector and a martial artist. I've already got a wife, and I'm well equipped for any sort of self defense situation I'm likely to encounter. Past that it's just a hobby. Some people have more money to spend on their hobby and buy WWII era smachets and the kind of katana that needs to be sent to Japan for polishing. Others make do with Museum Replicas and Cold Steel, although some of that stuff is pricey.


 
I have to agree. I wonder, is this phenomonea a natural human (male) activity or a sign of social ineptitude? Im fairly confident that its all relative (as is everything). With the guy who only buys a gun to feel safe in his home and able to protect his family on one side of the scale and the SCA guy with the Klingon battle blades and every Cold Steel special edition ever sold on the other. Not that one is a "better person" than the other or anything like that.


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## Carol (Nov 9, 2007)

tellner said:


> "Traditional African Personal Relaxation Device". Take a look at the picture, and it's pretty near-fetched



"[FONT=arial, helvetica]Although its primary mission is to be a walking stick to aid one&#8217;s balance when crossing uneven, slippery, wet or rough terrain, it can also serve as a pointer, lever, or probe"[/FONT] 



(withholds comment)


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