# What about biting,pinching and eye qouging?



## still learning (Jun 22, 2005)

Hello, In a real fight most of us don't want to go to the ground (no rules) and if anybody else around us could join in (with or with some kind of weapon) being on the ground you become helpless if attack from someone who is standing above us. (he could be a friend or foe).

 grapping teaches us locks and hold, but once grab...should we bit and eye gouge as soon as we can? groin attacks? keep strikeing? 

 What would you do? stay down and grapple or try to get up as soon as possible?   What should we do in a real fight?


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## rutherford (Jun 22, 2005)

In a real fight where only you and your attackers are involved there should be only one goal: survive.  

Personally, I'm not a biter.  Well, I am, but only with the ladies.  With folks I don't know and probably don't like, I'd rather not put anything into my mouth, especially not their blood.  So, it would have to be the last thing left before I tried it.  But, I'd do it without hesitation.  Dan Inosanto and others train in bites.  I've had no training in applying my teeth.

Eye gouges are another matter.  My preferred strike to the face is an open hand followed by a grab and tear as I pull back.  A thumb to the eye is extremely common in free grappling in my training group.  We just set it there so we both know about the opening, and then continue with safer play.  

But again, a real fight isn't play.  If I can't kill or disable you FAST I'm going to run even faster.


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## silatman (Jun 23, 2005)

You can bite, gouge and groin strike just as easy from stand up.
If the fight is on and its a "real" fight then its win at all costs, take what you can get when you can get it but as above the last thing I would want is to bite some filthy guy on the street, but if thats all there is, no hesitation.
I'll take some disease over death if thats the choice.


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## MJS (Jun 23, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In a real fight most of us don't want to go to the ground (no rules) and if anybody else around us could join in (with or with some kind of weapon) being on the ground you become helpless if attack from someone who is standing above us. (he could be a friend or foe).
> 
> grapping teaches us locks and hold, but once grab...should we bit and eye gouge as soon as we can? groin attacks? keep strikeing?
> 
> What would you do? stay down and grapple or try to get up as soon as possible?   What should we do in a real fight?



Getting back to my feet is certianly going to be my main goal.  Take advantage of whatever is available at the time...bite, pinch, gouge..whatever it takes.  As far as biting goes, I certainly don't want someones blood in my mouth, but as a last resort, I'd do it.  Some people say that biting is not that effective.  However, like rutherford said, Dan Inosanto, Vunak and others train how to bite.  Its really an art in itself.

Mike


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## nhbSDMF (Jun 23, 2005)

Bite, pinch, gouge, rake, stomp, do whatever it takes in a real fight.  You have no idea what the other person (or their friends) are capable of so end the fight quickly and get away.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 23, 2005)

nhbSDMF said:
			
		

> Bite, pinch, gouge, rake, stomp, do whatever it takes in a real fight.  You have no idea what the other person (or their friends) are capable of so end the fight quickly and get away.


I'll go with that and go as far as to repeat something that my oldest brother taught me.... "There's no such thing as a fair fight!" 
As Martialists we train to fight effectively, efficently, and so forth. But in the real world of street fight/combat we should do whatever it takes *beyond* our training to be the one left standing/moving away. 
If for some reason our training has not produced the desired results (who really wants to use the word "failed"?? :idunno: not me  ) then pick up that broken tree-limb, 2X4, bottle or whatever is handy and use it. If not readily available then like Malcom X ... "whatever means necessary."  :asian:

Oh, and I'll bite and worry about aids/hiv later. Sounds foolish?... Well I had talked with a doctor, a hemotologist if you will about the subject of the virus transfer. He told me that the transfer is a bit more complicated than just simple bodily fluids being placed from one body to another. As an (verbal) example he said that he could cut his finger (deeply) and then cut me (anywhere) and place his finger in the wound ... (this is hypothetically saying that I was infected... which I'm not.... hey... where are ya'll going? I'm not done here yet :wink1: ) and even wiggle it around a bit to be sure to get a good mix going on, and he would have a 99.99% chance of NOT being infected because of it.   
But that's a whole seperate subject entirely.  Point is... do whatever it takes.


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## Nanalo74 (Jun 23, 2005)

MACaver said:
			
		

> Oh, and I'll bite and worry about aids/hiv later. Sounds foolish?... Well I had talked with a doctor, a hemotologist if you will about the subject of the virus transfer. He told me that the transfer is a bit more complicated than just simple bodily fluids being placed from one body to another. As an (verbal) example he said that he could cut his finger (deeply) and then cut me (anywhere) and place his finger in the wound ... (this is hypothetically saying that I was infected... which I'm not.... hey... where are ya'll going? I'm not done here yet :wink1: ) and even wiggle it around a bit to be sure to get a good mix going on, and he would have a 99.99% chance of NOT being infected because of it.
> But that's a whole seperate subject entirely. Point is... do whatever it takes.


I work in the NYC Public School System and recently took a training with the Dept. of Health about HIV and STD transfer. Exposure does not mean infection. You'd have to swallow quite a bit of the person's blood in order to contract the virus. So unless you plan to drink your vanquished foe's blood, I think you'll be ok.  

Do what it takes to get away and get home to your family. That's what I think.

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Drac (Jun 23, 2005)

nhbSDMF said:
			
		

> Bite, pinch, gouge, rake, stomp, do whatever it takes in a real fight. You have no idea what the other person (or their friends) are capable of so end the fight quickly and get away.


Words of wisdom there..I tell the officers that I teach the same things. There are *NO RULES *in survival..Going home to your family at the end of your shift is #1 priority..If it take biting,pinching etc...etc.. then that's what I'll do..


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## still learning (Jun 23, 2005)

Hello, Thank-you for you comments and thoughts, really enjoy reading them.  I guess we all agree "Do what ever it takes to survive"!

 Biting can be an art to it?   .......Aloha


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## Shaolinwind (Jun 23, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, In a real fight most of us don't want to go to the ground (no rules) and if anybody else around us could join in (with or with some kind of weapon) being on the ground you become helpless if attack from someone who is standing above us. (he could be a friend or foe).
> 
> grapping teaches us locks and hold, but once grab...should we bit and eye gouge as soon as we can? groin attacks? keep strikeing?
> 
> What would you do? stay down and grapple or try to get up as soon as possible? What should we do in a real fight?


Dude, if serious injury is at risk and you lose your composure in a real fight due to inexperience or stress as many do, bite their face off. Pull their eyes out. Rend flesh. Who cares, just so long as you can get outta there unharmed.  If you can't remember the form of the tiger then just be ferocious like the tiger, if you catch my drift.  

Come to think of it the form of the tiger has an eye gouge in it, but it isn't while grappling.


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## arnisador (Jun 23, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> Biting can be an art to it?


 Ah, the alleged Filipino martial art of 'Kino Muti'! I don't buy it.


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## MJS (Jun 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Ah, the alleged Filipino martial art of 'Kino Muti'! I don't buy it.



What are your thoughts on this?  In my post I mentioned Inosanto and Vunak and said 'its really an art in itself'.  Now, what I meant by that was, rather than just taking a bite, IMO, you'll get better results if one understood, in a grappling position, where it would be more productive to apply that bite, etc.  However, I've never heard of a school that solely teaches one just to bite.

Mike


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## MA-Caver (Jun 24, 2005)

Chobaja said:
			
		

> Dude, if serious injury is at risk and you lose your composure in a real fight due to inexperience or stress as many do, bite their face off. Pull their eyes out. Rend flesh. Who cares, just so long as you can get outta there unharmed.  If you can't remember the form of the tiger then just be ferocious like the tiger, if you catch my drift.


Well presumably you're talking about last possible ditch efforts and your life would be bleeding out of you if you don't do something totally desperate at that moment. But even then... even then, remaining as calm as possible, being in control of yourself will still give you an advantage. Because I'll say it again: your mind is your greatest weapon. Use it... THINK! Going crazy and flailing all limbs and biting and scratching, yelling and screaming ... that will probably make *them* want to kill *you* that much faster. You've also allowed your fear to take rein of you and the situation. 
Consider this; you get jumped by a couple of muggers, all they want is your money/watch/whatever of value. Your training puts you into a fighting situation and now these guys have to take you down so that they don't get hurt. So they'll gang up on you or do whatever and hurt you more than they originally intended. 
Even crack-heads don't attack mindlessly. They got a plan (however screwed up, unrealistic and simple it may be) on how to get what they want from you. Panic causes mistakes and if those guys panic then they'll make mistakes and it (should) be to your advantage. If _you_ panic then they have the advantage or their fear is heightened and they go beyond what *they* can control... themselves. There are probably a good number of guys sitting in prison for murder when all they _intended_ was robbery. 
A warrior stays in control of themselves at all times. If it comes to pinching, biting, eye-gouging and whatever else then the warrior (martialist) will do so with the full intent of creating hurt but knowing when to stop once the damage is done. Adrenialine is a great and terrible thing. Learning to control ourselves after the intial dump into our systems is what seperates a Martial Artist from the average street-fighter IMO. 
An attacker has you pinned against a wall or on the ground in such a manner that you can't really do too much by way of MA techniques, then by all means, bite the sucker (draw blood), pinch, grab do whatever to get him away from you so that you can return to your MA fighting mode/stance and resume control over the fight under your terms. Going wild don't help nobody. 
No maybe you didn't fight fairly but you did remain in control or resumed control of the fight.


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## Drac (Jun 24, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Ah, the alleged Filipino martial art of 'Kino Muti'! I don't buy it.


I heard about an alleged art based on biting, I guess they were telling me the truth..


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## arnisador (Jun 24, 2005)

I don't believe that there was a traditional art of 'Kino Muti' based om biting. _But_, I do believe there are better and worse times and ways to do it, and there's no reason not to think about it.


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## hardheadjarhead (Jun 24, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> grapping teaches us locks and hold, but once grab...should we bit and eye gouge as soon as we can? groin attacks? keep strikeing?




Yes.  Bite, gouge, rip, tear.

Now, as to training this in class...

It might be exceptionally rude to do this in Brazilian jujitsu, and might alienate you to your training partners and instructor.  SO...get a willing partner and put on your protective cups.  

Role for position and submissions as you normally would, but insert groin grabs (yeah...grab the material over the cup...don't be shy) and place the fingers near the eyes and call it "eyes" when you clearly had a gouge ready to go.  

For biting...you can actually practice biting lightly.  Some people don't like this for hygenic reasons--in that event get your mouth near a likely target and call "bite."  Think about where it hurts the worst when bitten, and what spots actually cause serious damage (carotid artery, anyone?  Num.)

Clothes:  Go to Goodwill and get crappy street clothes you don't mind tearing up. Train in this.


Regards,


Steve


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## Bigshadow (Jun 28, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> being on the ground you become helpless if attack from someone who is standing above us.


 I would disagree. Being on the ground, you are not helpless. Many things that work standing up work on the ground. I am not as proficient on the ground as standing up, but I am not too worried on the ground.

 IMHO, biting, pinching, eye gouging, jaw ripping, ear tearing, eyelid shredding, etc are all things that can be done. The possibilities are limitless. Don't box yourself in to just a few things. Basically, whatever it takes to survive.


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## lonecoyote (Jul 7, 2005)

On pinching: I've been doing a lot of grip work lately Captains of Crush, pinch gripping plates, softball with weights hung underneath, sledgehammer levering, and I can testify that when grappling with someone, a full hand pinch and hard twist anywhere from the armpits to the love handles will really loosen things up,  Be forewarned, though, that kind of pain shocks your system and really makes folks mad, while not disabling them. People who I know who've done amateur wrestling say that it's illegal but some people pinch to loosen things up. Just thought I'd mention pinching since everyone else seems to have biting and gouging covered.


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## jkdhit (Jul 7, 2005)

in a real fight, i would do anything to win

 2 years ago i was in a fight in wendy's with some stranger who was harrassing me and my friends - i think he was drunk or high. it got physical so i tried to end it quickly by bringing him down, i took him down with a large outside reap. i asked him if he was done, he stayed down so i walked away towards my table. as i was walking away, he grabbed my leg and took my down and got on top of me. as soon as that happened, i pinched his adam's apple, he did the same to me, i applied more pressure and so did he, i ended up gouging him in the eyes then headbutting his nose to get out of that situation.

 after all of that, we were pretty much banned from that wendy's but i still go there ocassionally


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## SammyB57 (Jul 8, 2005)

still learning said:
			
		

> What would you do? stay down and grapple or try to get up as soon as possible? What should we do in a real fight?


Win. By whatever means possible.


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## Ubermint (Jul 8, 2005)

I get bit and pinched all the time...and I LIKE IT!


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## SammyB57 (Jul 8, 2005)

I like it when my girlfriend bites... not a lot, just a lil' bit.


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## Troy Ostapiw/Canada (Jul 15, 2005)

*Sometimes you cant help going to the ground.  You could slip, fall, or get sucker punched without ever seeing it.  There are so many factors involved in personal protection and self-defence.  One may not want to go to the ground, but once your there you have to know what to do.  In self-defence, you tactics should be based on getting back to your feet, but you may have to grapple before that can happen.  *

*Learning how to maintain positional control standing up or on the ground, is important in any type of martial arts program.  Biting may be a last resort, as there are many communicable diseases like Aids and Hep A, B, and C out there.  Eye gouging or groin and knee strikes can also be very effective on the ground.  Dont forget, just because your down does not mean you have to grapple.  Combining Eye gouging, groin strikes, knees and elbow with grappling can help a person to get back on their feet to a solid platform.  When your on your feet you have a better chance of stun and run tactics.*


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## CuongNhuka (Aug 3, 2005)

if a weapon is draw, get it out of the person's hand and cut his guts out. if someone else dicides to help out, on my side, push 'em out (i can handle myself thank you). if someone else decides to help out on my opponents side break idiot numbers arm, elbow, knee, or what ever limb presents it self to me and start playing with idiot number 2. ohh and why cut his guts out? well he did once, he might do it again. and break a limb? so i d on't have to deal with idiot numbers 1 & 2 at the same time for as long. and pinching does do much other then make your fight look like porn. if i use an eye gouge, that wont heal, an brocken limb will how ever. if i bite and they aids, well i was absinint for nothing, lol.

sweet Brighit Bless your blade

john


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## Mark Barlow (Aug 3, 2005)

Remember when biting to go for soft tissue such as ears, noses, muscles but always bite with the back teeth.  Clamping down with your front teeth is a great way to earn that hockey player smile when your opponent jerks away from you.

When head butting, always use the crown of your skull.  You may win the fight but still lose the war if you knock your opponent out at the cost of giving yourself a concusion.

Mark Barlow


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 4, 2005)

One word. SURVIVE.  If survival means a bite, tear, rip, pull, gouge then yes do it.  The "ethics of combat" only stand if you're still alive after combat and most "combat ethics" were created by people with either (a) little experience in combat or (b) traumatic experiences involving combat and wanting to make the world a better/nicer place.  Since the world still isn't a nice place, survive by any means necessary.


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## Kenpo_man (Aug 15, 2005)

I saw some of you guys mention kino muti. I looked it up and found a site with some good information if anyone is interested.

http://www.geocities.com/jkdinstructor/kinomutai.html?200515


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## Neon Knight (Aug 18, 2005)

Nothing wrong with biting, eye gouging, hair pulling, pulling eyes out and earlobes off....

...Providing you have some REAL ability (and by that I mean, you have empirical evidence garnered through experience against resisting opponents), that you can back all that up with. Those things are not substitues for the actual ability to fight, that is developed through a more standard functional and performance based art-form(s).

If you're good at boxing, those tactics will work. If you're good at wrestling in the clinch, they will work. If you're good at Brazilian jiu-jitsu (etc), they will work. If you CAN'T fight in any of those ranges there is NO reason to think that you can make any of those techniques work. That is why I don't believe in the Kino Mutai stuff. How DO you practice that art anyway?!

Its like Jerry Wetzel says regarding knife fighting (and I'm paraphrasing), if you can't fight WITHOUT a knife, don't bet your life on your ability to fight WITH one. 

The same could be said regarding these "foul" tactics don't you think? I certainly do.


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