# Training In Japan



## MJS (Oct 21, 2009)

While surfing the web, I came across a thread elsewhere, on the subject of training in Japan.  I thought I'd ask this question here, to get the thoughts of our members on this forum. 

There seemed to be 2 lines of thought....one group felt that it was necessary to make regular trips to Japan to train with Hatsumi and the Shihan, so as to stay in tune with what was being taught there.  The other group seems to feel that its not necessary to make the trip and that there're enough teachers here, to get material from.  Some are thinking that given the fact that they are not Hatsumi, that goals, lifestyle, etc. are all different, that is the reason why they'd rather focus on their own training here in the states.

Now, I don't train in the Bujinkan, I train in Kenpo.  Unfortunately, I never had the chance to meet or train with Ed Parker, before he passed.  However, if given the chance to train with him once or on a regular basis, I wouldn't think twice about doing it!  I mean, why not train with the head of the system?  But, as I said, I never had that chance, so all I can do now, is train with those that have more experience than I, those that did train with Parker and can pass on his teachings.  

So, what do you all think?  Should you be taking regular trips to Japan?  Or do you feel that its not necessary?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 21, 2009)

I think if you want to be good and in tune with the training in the Bujinkan then you should make the effort to go and train at the source or at least train with someone who goes regularly.  This of course does not invalidate anyone who cannot make it to Japan regularly but if you can train from the source then why not?  Now if you cannot train at the source then training with people regularly going over there is great too!  What is not good is to do what ever you want and then call it Budo Taijutsu.  That was the main topic or at least the OP original intent with the thread you were referencing!


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## MJS (Oct 21, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think if you want to be good and in tune with the training in the Bujinkan then you should make the effort to go and train at the source or at least train with someone who goes regularly. This of course does not invalidate anyone who cannot make it to Japan regularly but if you can train from the source then why not? Now if you cannot train at the source then training with people regularly going over there is great too! What is not good is to do what ever you want and then call it Budo Taijutsu. That was the main topic or at least the OP original intent with the thread you were referencing!


 
Agreed Brian!   Yeah, I dont understand why someone would want to bill something as one thing, when its either totally different, or has similarities but more differences...if that made sense. 

Like I said, I dont understand why anyone would choose not to train with those that are at the source.


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## jks9199 (Oct 21, 2009)

Y'know, I don't think this question is really as limited to the Bujinkan as it seems on the surface...

If you want to be current in any association, you have to participate and be part of that association's current training.  For the Bujinkan, that means you (or your teacher) has to have consistent and regular contact with the Hombu and the grandmaster.  You need to make sure that the basics you're practicing are the basics they're teaching... and not a third-hand interpretation which is missing some key aspect.


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## MJS (Oct 21, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Y'know, I don't think this question is really as limited to the Bujinkan as it seems on the surface...
> 
> If you want to be current in any association, you have to participate and be part of that association's current training. For the Bujinkan, that means you (or your teacher) has to have consistent and regular contact with the Hombu and the grandmaster. You need to make sure that the basics you're practicing are the basics they're teaching... and not a third-hand interpretation which is missing some key aspect.


 
Couldn't agree more.  This is why I enjoy going to the Arnis camps.  Remy Presas is no longer here, so I train with those Masters who spent alot of time with him training, going with him all over the world to help him at his seminars, camps, etc.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 21, 2009)

MJS said:


> Agreed Brian!  Yeah, I dont understand why someone would want to bill something as one thing, when its either totally different, or has similarities but more differences...if that made sense.


 
Welcome to the wonderful and whacky world of Chinese Martial Arts. There are TONS of people in CMA making claims like this.



MJS said:


> Like I said, I dont understand why anyone would choose not to train with those that are at the source.


 
I am not Bujinkan (I dont even play one on TV ) as a matter of fact I don't even train a JMA, I train CMA, but I would agree with that as well. Getting as close to the source as possible in your training in just about any style I would think would be a good idea.


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## Omar B (Oct 21, 2009)

This reminds me of all those old articles on Tang Soo Do and Hapkido from Black Belt Mag in the 70's.  some people think that training at the source usually means it's better, but a lot of the martial artist back then observed that the level of skill and training here in the US is better because schools in Asia routinely sent their best and brightest here to spread the art.


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## bluekey88 (Oct 21, 2009)

I think it is less important to study in the country or region of origin than it is to study with highly skilled and knowledgeable teachers.  Often, going to the source is that...but if you can get good instruction locally, all the better.

In my case, as a realtive Bujinkan novice, travelling to Japan would make for a cool vacation, but the amount of knowledge i'd pick up would be less than if I went after I get some more experience under my belt.  Thankfully, my teacher goes once or twice a year and works out regularly with one of the high ranking 15th dan's who also travels to Japan regularly.  I'm close to the source by association.  

In TKD, I don't think going to Korea would benefit me much...other than being a cool vacation...as there isn't one "source" and a lot of really high ranking, talented instructors can be found near me.

Bottom line is, seek out good instruction where you can find it.

Peace,
Erik


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## sfs982000 (Oct 21, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> I think it is less important to study in the country or region of origin than it is to study with highly skilled and knowledgeable teachers. Often, going to the source is that...but if you can get good instruction locally, all the better.
> 
> In my case, as a realtive Bujinkan novice, travelling to Japan would make for a cool vacation, but the amount of knowledge i'd pick up would be less than if I went after I get some more experience under my belt. Thankfully, my teacher goes once or twice a year and works out regularly with one of the high ranking 15th dan's who also travels to Japan regularly. I'm close to the source by association.
> 
> ...


 
Well put Erik.


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## jks9199 (Oct 21, 2009)

bluekey88 said:


> I think it is less important to study in the country or region of origin than it is to study with highly skilled and knowledgeable teachers.  Often, going to the source is that...but if you can get good instruction locally, all the better.
> 
> In my case, as a realtive Bujinkan novice, travelling to Japan would make for a cool vacation, but the amount of knowledge i'd pick up would be less than if I went after I get some more experience under my belt.  Thankfully, my teacher goes once or twice a year and works out regularly with one of the high ranking 15th dan's who also travels to Japan regularly.  I'm close to the source by association.
> 
> ...


That's why I pointedly included "or your teacher."  Right now, it's clear that much of what Hatsumi is teaching is being taught at a level for the shihan and other most skilled practitioners -- not a newby.  I can't begin to draw the line where -- but if you don't already know the Kihon Happo and other basics, how can you expect to learn the intracacies he's teaching at Hombu?  But you probably could benefit from visiting and training with one of the Japanese (or non-Japanese) shihan that live in Japan and train regularly with him.  You also benefit from your teacher maintaining contact with those same high ranked students and Hatsumi... or else your teacher's training becomes stale and stagnant.

Like I said -- this isn't really a Bujinkan specific question.  I see people training in my own art who haven't attended any of the recent training opportunities, and their training hasn't progressed beyond what we were doing 10 or 12 years ago.  I see some people who got their black belts, and stopped learning from anyone...  and that's as far as they've gone.  But they're teaching...


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## MJS (Dec 4, 2009)

The thread that originally sparked me to start this one, has since been closed.  However, over the past few days, I was reading some comments by Dale Seago on Facebook, about the 2009 Daikomyosai.  Now, I dont want to speak for Dale....and hopefully he'll chime in here with a 2009 review, but a comment that he made caught my eye.  He said: 

"So far, during the whole trip, there's been nothing I haven't seen before; its just that I haven't 'seen' any of it before."

So, after reading that, my interpretation of that is that while he's certainly been around long enough to have seen quite a bit, the Shihan in Japan have shown him a 'new' way, so to speak, of looking at things.  So perhaps, while there are many great teachers of the art in the US, it may be necessary to make a trip to Japan, to train with the top Masters, so that your eyes can be opened to those things that you haven't 'seen' before.

Thoughts?


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 4, 2009)

Again I do not train JMA but from my CMA POV, IMO, it makes a big difference. I have been shown various taiji postures and applications over the years by different people but when my Taiji Sifu shows me the same thing I see things in a whole new light and I am damn lucky to have him as my sifu. That, by the way, also applies to things he has shown me in the beginning that he felt I was ready for and later those same things that he added later when he new I was ready to learn it (a good sifu knows better than you what you are ready to learn).

I am not trying to impress but his lineage is Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Chieh and the level of understanding he gained from his sifu (again IMO) makes all the difference.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 4, 2009)

I was talking with a friend today and this Daikomyosai is apparently a very important one.  That is all I know but apparently that is the "buzz word"!


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## Cryozombie (Dec 4, 2009)

MJS said:


> "So far, during the whole trip, there's been nothing I haven't seen before; its just that I haven't 'seen' any of it before."
> 
> 
> Thoughts?



I think I know exactly what Dale means, because every time we go to a Seminar, or have a guest from Japan in our dojo, we seem go over material I've worked on in the past... and its TOTALY different from how i have been doing them in ways that are so obvious... and it's not neccessarily that they are being done so differently, as i am seeing them differently and understanding them in newer better ways, or being shown subtle little things I have missed out on, trying to do them "good enough" in my daily training.


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## bluekey88 (Dec 4, 2009)

My instructor says that all the time about his trips to Japan and his sessions with Jack Hoban.  I, myself, seem to expereince this every other calss or so (Kihon happo...again???...oh, wow...cool)  at least that seems to be the progression in my mind.

It's all about being open to experience....good instruction can happen anywhere though, you just have to be ready for it when it happens.

Peace,
Erik


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## kcs (Dec 8, 2009)

it depends.  after yondan you have to go out to get your rank in the bujinkan.  to me it is up the the person.  if they want to go that is fine.  i would like to go soon to see soke.  also to see japan and it's culture.  my instructor went out there and received godan.  at the lower ranks it is really not necessary he told me.  everyone is welcome but not everyone is wanted. 





MJS said:


> While surfing the web, I came across a thread elsewhere, on the subject of training in Japan. I thought I'd ask this question here, to get the thoughts of our members on this forum.
> 
> There seemed to be 2 lines of thought....one group felt that it was necessary to make regular trips to Japan to train with Hatsumi and the Shihan, so as to stay in tune with what was being taught there. The other group seems to feel that its not necessary to make the trip and that there're enough teachers here, to get material from. Some are thinking that given the fact that they are not Hatsumi, that goals, lifestyle, etc. are all different, that is the reason why they'd rather focus on their own training here in the states.
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> I think I know exactly what Dale means, because every time we go to a Seminar, or have a guest from Japan in our dojo, we seem go over material I've worked on in the past... and its TOTALY different from how i have been doing them in ways that are so obvious... and it's not neccessarily that they are being done so differently, as i am seeing them differently and understanding them in newer better ways, or being shown subtle little things I have missed out on, trying to do them "good enough" in my daily training.


 
Good point.  I'll use the last Arnis camp I went to.  Aside from a few new drills, there was alot that I've either already seen or done many times.  However, its those subtle things, as you said, that I did pick up on, to make the material that much better.


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## MJS (Dec 8, 2009)

kcs said:


> it depends. after yondan you have to go out to get your rank in the bujinkan. to me it is up the the person. if they want to go that is fine. i would like to go soon to see soke. also to see japan and it's culture. my instructor went out there and received godan. at the lower ranks it is really not necessary he told me. everyone is welcome but not everyone is wanted.


 
Agreed.  I think this could apply to any art.  I mean, I've been to a number of seminars/camps, and have seen many newbies.  Now, on one hand, its good to see people with a desire to learn and who want to see top people.  On the other hand, more times than not, those people are often lost, as the material being taught is 'over their head' for lack of better words.

Back to this topic though....I did get the impression...and I may be wrong...that the idea both here and on that other thread from the other forum, was suggesting that the teachers and/or higher ranked students, should make regular trips, not necessarily for rank, but for the sake of training with the top people.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 9, 2009)

I would also point out that Hatsumi Sensei is now one year older and it would be a good time to go and train with him! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  Please experience what he has to offer! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (you will not be disappointed)


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## MJS (Dec 9, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would also point out that Hatsumi Sensei is now one year older and it would be a good time to go and train with him!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Agreed, and this was another point that I was hinting at with this thread.  As I said, I'm a Kenpo guy, but never had the chance to meet Ed Parker.  I was fortunate enough to meet Remy Presas (Modern Arnis) a few times.


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## Dale Seago (Dec 10, 2009)

MJS said:


> So, after reading that, my interpretation of that is that while he's certainly been around long enough to have seen quite a bit, the Shihan in Japan have shown him a 'new' way, so to speak, of looking at things.



More precisely, first I saw it (with Soke), then some of the shihan were able to help me with it. Still got LOTS of work to do on my own now, though.

26 years now, still going and still growing. I love this art!!


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## MJS (Dec 10, 2009)

Dale Seago said:


> More precisely, first I saw it (with Soke), then some of the shihan were able to help me with it. Still got LOTS of work to do on my own now, though.
> 
> 26 years now, still going and still growing. I love this art!!


 
Thanks Dale!   Its nice to see you posting here.  I know at times certain forums can breed people with an agenda, which oftens deters people from posting.  We do our best here, to keep things civil and troll free.

Its nice to see you posting and I look forward to hearing more from you.

Mike


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## ElfTengu (Jan 8, 2010)

The most important question by FAR, is how good are the people who teach you?

If they are total crap it doesn't make any difference how many times they have been to Japan, and we all know people who have the money to go as often as they like and then lord it over the rest of us but don't actually come back with anything worthwhile or of any value because they are unable to retain or understand, even at a basic level, anything that they saw whilst they were there.

So a good teacher who rarely goes or has never gone to Japan (by definition they will have had much contact with people who 'have' done so), is better than a poor instructor for whom the trip is not worth having taken.

But a good teacher who has lots of Japan-time under their belt and still goes over every now and again, is obviously better than a good teacher who is not drawing from the live source.


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