# Muk Yan Jong Question



## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2011)

Is it possible to learn the Muk Yan Jong, understand it and do it justice if all you know is Siu Nim Tao and have not learned Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and done very little Chi Sao?

Or is it imperative that you know Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and train Chi Sao for it to be understood and trained properly?


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## mook jong man (Mar 18, 2011)

I don't believe it is , I think that having a solid grounding in SLT and being at the level of learning Chum Kiu would have to be the main requirement.

Because the dummy form requires precise positioning and proper coordination of stepping and pivoting with the arm movements.

The primary purpose of Chum Kiu is to teach you how to move , and without Chum Kiu you have not yet learn to move properly in your stance , so I think it would probably be hard for you to properly project your body mass into the dummy correctly.


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## tenzen (Mar 18, 2011)

Depends. The dummy is just a dummy. A training device that doesn't necessarily have to be used for wc. But in the context of wc, you need to learn the empty hand forms first. There are principles in the forms that are applied in the dummy form. You need to understand these principles.
But looking at it as a training tool only. You wouldn't have to know any wing chun to use it. You would just have to grow outside the box, as I have stated before. I know kenpo guys that use a jong and don't know a thing about wc. Same with silat and some arnis guys. The jong is just a training utensil and doesn't have to be limited to one system or use. There are many types of jongs. When I practiced hop gar our jong was a hanging log, like a heavy bag. No arms or legs. Hei hu quan uses a grinder dummy that's like a wc jong only separated into 3 sections.
So to use a jong period u don't need to know any wc, just know something and learn to work it on the jong. But to use it for wc learn it how your sifu gives it to you.


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## almost a ghost (Mar 18, 2011)

It is very important that you know Chum Kiu and Biu Tse before learning the dummy.

The dummy is combination of all three forms coming together. Combining the footwork from Chum Kiu with Biu Tse to learn to move around your opponent while breaking and returning to the proper structure/lines.

Enjoy the ride.


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## yak sao (Mar 18, 2011)

I think it could be done....it would be harder though. Maybe not the best analogy, but it would be like learning algebra without a firm foundation in math....or learning to play a song on the guitar without understanding the basic notes and cords.
Any other analogies anyone?


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## yak sao (Mar 18, 2011)

I remember when I studied another system of CMA years ago. Our forms were southern style, so not the flashy kind that one might associate with kung fu.
 This Chinese teacher moved into the area, who taught more of a northern/flashy style of kung fu. Well, one of our instructors switched over to him, taking several students of varying levels with him.
He taught our material at an accelerated level in an effort to get his students to the newer, flashier stuff sooner.
But what you ended up with were not instructor level students practicing a beginning level form. It was beginner students practicing a black sash level form. And it showed....they didn't have the foudation to perform the forms the way they needed to be practiced, so they didn't get the full benefit of the forms.


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## bully (Mar 18, 2011)

I am at this level too but I have a dummy at home. I just do drills on it and use it to check my shapes. Also if you are inclined you could condition on it too...I know you are not supposed to hit it hard and flow around it BUT it could be used for conditioning if you want.

Somewhere (and I can't remember where) I read that WSL said the dummy form could be started after you had learnt the first third of Chum Kui and you could learn both together. Please correct me if i am wrong as it was just on the net somewere. 

Guys what do you think? Is the first third of CK enough??

At Kung Fu school at the mo, done a week. Will start a new thread later about it...god I ache!!


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## mook jong man (Mar 18, 2011)

bully said:


> I am at this level too but I have a dummy at home. I just do drills on it and use it to check my shapes. Also if you are inclined you could condition on it too...I know you are not supposed to hit it hard and flow around it BUT it could be used for conditioning if you want.
> 
> Somewhere (and I can't remember where) I read that WSL said the dummy form could be started after you had learnt the first third of Chum Kui and you could learn both together. Please correct me if i am wrong as it was just on the net somewere.
> 
> ...



I think so , personally I don't believe you have to know the Bil Gee form for learning the wooden dummy , it would be nice , but I don't feel it is a requirement.

Most of the moves contained in the dummy form are a combination of Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu anyway.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 19, 2011)

almost a ghost said:


> It is very important that you know Chum Kiu and Biu Tse before learning the dummy.
> 
> The dummy is combination of all three forms coming together. Combining the footwork from Chum Kiu with Biu Tse to learn to move around your opponent while breaking and returning to the proper structure/lines.
> 
> Enjoy the ride.


 
In our system, you learn Siu Nim Tau (hand positions), Chum Kiu (footwork), and then the Mook Yan Jong (hands and feet combined).  You don't need to know Biu Tze (Biu Jee) to work and train the jong.  Biu Jee and the weapons forms are reserved for the advanced and most trusted students only.  You can use the Wing Chun system and use it effectively with only the 3 forms, SNT, CK, and MYJ as mentioned.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 19, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> . . . . . Most of the moves contained in the dummy form are a combination of Sil Lum Tao and Chum Kiu anyway.


 
Correct.  If you look at the jong form, there are no hand positions from Biu Tze (Biu Jee) that are in the jong form other than the combination tan/gan motions in the second set.  And those postions are introduced individually in Siu Nim Tau, not Biu Jee.


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## Danny T (Mar 19, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> Is it possible to learn the Muk Yan Jong, understand it and do it justice if all you know is Siu Nim Tao and have not learned Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and done very little Chi Sao?
> 
> Or is it imperative that you know Chum Kiu, Biu Tze and train Chi Sao for it to be understood and trained properly?



If one is learning the MYJ purely from a WC training system perspective I am of the opinion that a strong SNT and CK base is needed to have a high level of understanding of what is developed within MYJ form training. To use the MYJ for specific drills and positions; I do so often with all my students however, drilling or knowing the form and understanding the form is not the same thing. The first half of the dummy form is from CK the 2nd half of the form is mostly BT so knowledge of BT is important though. If one does not have a high level of understanding of SNT they will not have a good understanding of CK nor will they understand BT. To understand stickyness on the dummy my opinion is one needs to understand what Chi Sao is about. I see very few persons work the dummy with stickyness. Most completely disengage between the movements rather than stick. Makes me go, hmm??


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## Eric_H (Mar 19, 2011)

You can train WC with no forms - just san sao application. Learn the dummy whenever you want to - as you learn more, what things you learn from the dummy will change.

There seems to be this strange idea that you learn the forms and then they're "finished."  The forms are never finished - you just know the sequence. The concepts that drive them are an everyday struggle to ingrain deeper into your WC expression and life.


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## profesormental (Mar 20, 2011)

Greetings.

More important than the learning of the SLT and CK forms, is the LESSONS and TEACHINGS gained. They can be taught with the MJ form as a vehicle, yet teaching them against a living person; their application and HOW to move for the desired effect is most important.

Also, you have to think about teaching a complete beginner... SLT = How to move your upper platform. CK = How to move your lower platform. MJ = How to mess someone up by changing angles. BJ = Advanced Messing up... lotsa secrets here!

Thus, since you, Xue Sheng, are NOT a beginner (in CMA), if you have good footwork and know how to move as a bone crushing unit at the moment of impact, go forth and learn the MJ form. Yet I suggest you invest time in the applications of each segment against a live human trying to punch your head off or grapple you "street thug Gonna-git-you-sucka" style. That way, you can use the dummy as a simulacrum of a person and apply actual forces to it.

Remember that the forms are only a vehicle for a competent Teacher to teach you self defense and messing up bad guys. Fortunately, they are a very sophisticated vehicle and a very powerful kinesiological "text book". Your experiences and learnings do not exclude you from benefiting; they actually help in my opinion.

I would be interested in your experience in learning the forms and how it all connects with your previous learnings and new discoveries from the training. As you shared when playing with SLT.

Ark Wong said once "All Chinese Martial art the same. All basic move the same. Difference is application." I believe this is very true in all high level martial sciences. They somehow converge. 

Keep growing. Eternal Springtime, baby!! 

Juan Mercado

P.S. MJ techs are to be seen not only as techniques but points of reference to many transitions. Playing with transitions is the fun part, yet it requires solid repetitive training to ingrain in a fruitful way... with a person (training partner) trying to actually hit you in the way a person with hate or harmful intentions would. I don't find it that useful to train against someone throwing chain punches or Sun Fist punches at me... that don't happen in real attacks here...


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks for the responses.

The reason for my question was that I realized the only reason I got in to Wing Chun in the first place was because I felt that the wooden dummy form could be of importance to many CMA styles. But then many CMA styles have their version of a wooden dummy form. Even Baguazhang has a version, IMO, with a wooden pole and Sanda&#8217;s use of a tree in its training is just another variation, IMO.

I am not at all surprised to hear that if you are approaching the Muk Yan Jong from the POV that you want to understand Wing Chun that it is important to know more than Siu Nim Tao since it does not move, as far as the feet are concerned, and I have observed movements in the Muk Yan Jong form and those did not come from Siu Nim Tao. 

I was surprised to read about good and bad Muk Yan Jong form based on stickiness or lack thereof. But thinking back on my little experience with Chi Sao and thinking about what I consider good Chi Sao I did see stickiness and I can see that it most likely would be an important part of the Muk Yan Jong form and that Chi Sao is where that would likely come from. My root style is Taijiquan and stickiness is very important to the style in application.

Thank You for all the responses and my study of Wing Chun continues. I am still working on Siu Nim Tao but now in combination with Chen Silk Reeling (Chansigong) and so far it is rather interesting, but I think my Chansigong needs to get much better before I realize how well it does or does not work with Siu Nim Tao.


:asian:


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 21, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> . . . . .I was surprised to read about good and bad Muk Yan Jong form based on stickiness or lack thereof. But thinking back on my little experience with Chi Sao and thinking about what I consider good Chi Sao I did see stickiness and I can see that it most likely would be an important part of the Muk Yan Jong form and that Chi Sao is where that would likely come from. My root style is Taijiquan and stickiness is very important to the style in application.:asian:


 
Xue Sheng, it only makes sense to do the form and stick to the jong.  Just like with a person, once you've made contact, you want to maintain that contact to be able to read or re-direct their intentions.  You don't dis-engage unless striking the person.  Same with the jong since it represents moving around or manipulating a person to trap or strike.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 21, 2011)

Danny T said:


> If one is learning the MYJ purely from a WC training system perspective I am of the opinion that a strong SNT and CK base is needed to have a high level of understanding of what is developed within MYJ form training. To use the MYJ for specific drills and positions; I do so often with all my students however, drilling or knowing the form and understanding the form is not the same thing. The first half of the dummy form is from CK the 2nd half of the form is mostly BT so knowledge of BT is important though. If one does not have a high level of understanding of SNT they will not have a good understanding of CK nor will they understand BT. To understand stickyness on the dummy my opinion is one needs to understand what Chi Sao is about. I see very few persons work the dummy with stickyness. Most completely disengage between the movements rather than stick. Makes me go, hmm??


 
Some schools teach the forms like thus:
SNT
CK
BT
MYJ

Others like this:
SNT
CK
MYJ
BT

And still others:
SNT
CK
1st 1/2 MYJ
1st 1/2 BT
2nd 1/2 MYJ
2nd 1/2 BT

I got to thinking about what Danny T Sifu said about the importance of first half of Biu Tze (Biu Jee) before learning the 2nd half of the Mook Yan Jong form.  I stated the only positions in the jong from Biu Tze was tan/gan motion found in the 6th set (traditionally).  But I must correct myself (SiDai Danny, I know you saw it, nothing gets past you.  You should have corrected me), in the last set of the jong, some schools do a pak gerk towards the very end, and some schools do a Soo Gerk (inside arch strike).  You are taught those motions in Biu Jee (if you do pak gerk in Biu Jee, you most likely do it in the jong form.  If you do only circle step or soo gerk in Biu Jee, you most likely do Soo Gerk in the jong form too).

I don't teach Biu Jee to any students until they complete the Mook Yan Jong form.  I reserve that for the most loyal and dedicated students.  Plus, most students don't stay long enough to even get the first set of the dummy much less the first half of the dummy form.  So to me, whether you teach the first half of the dummy and then the first half of the Biu Jee, or all of the dummy then Biu Jee, or whatever order, is a moot point.


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2011)

Form - Drills - Application

Form is Form: how we move, where we move, how to present the tools.
Drills are attribute builders: How you do, When you do, Where you do, Why you do, Who you do.
Application:using the movements to survive in real time against someone or multiple persons trying to strike or take you down or worse. The movements to the positions may be use in many, many ways; as long as one maintains the principles.

With that in mind, What is first? Form or understanding? Is it really important which is first? Knowing form and Understanding form is not the same thing. In the dummy usage many drills can be used to help the practitioners development. Is knowing the form more important than understanding what the movements (transitions) and/or positions can be utilized for? Beginners can learn the form in a short time. To understand the form? I have known the MYJ form for over 20 years and I still have new perspectives as to what can be done. 

Over the years my Sifu has had me do several different variations of SLT, CK, BT, MYJ, BDJ, and dragon pole. I often wondered why did he change the forms? Why change the drills? Often he would say, "this is for you. You do it this way but keep showing it the other way."   
"Sir, Why?" I would ask. He would remark, "you have it now play with it. Make it yours"
What a gift he has given. The Understand of the possibilities.  

SiHing Al, I know you have far more an understand of the forms than you present, who am I to correct you?

Thanks to all for allowing me to ramble.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 24, 2011)

Danny T said:


> Form - Drills - Application
> 
> Form is Form: how we move, where we move, how to present the tools.
> Drills are attribute builders: How you do, When you do, Where you do, Why you do, Who you do.
> ...


 
Okay Sidai, maybe not correct me.  How about remind me?

Great post by the way, wouldn't expect anything less.


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## MacPedro (Apr 16, 2011)

Hi all,
        This is my first post, great site, Im enjoying trawling the archives J
Total novice POV -
I had no Wing Chun experience before last summer where I started to copy SLT movements from youtube. There are no teachers near me and its been difficult to understand what it is I am even supposed to be doing, I feel im starting to understand though. Part of the problem is the many facets of Wing Chun itself or at least the way it can come across on the web J (NB I know  I could be attaching too much emphasis on advice taken out of context).
Ive also been aping the 8mm footage of Yip Mans Chum Kiu and although some movements give me trouble and I am very sloppy I think its better than not doing anything at all.
I built a dummy in the garage (also with the help of youtube) and have been working towards learning a sequence. I understand I could be picking up a million bad habits, I know my positioning is off and Im bumbling through the dark. I have never had so much fun though. 
One sure positive to come out of this, no matter what anyone says, my understanding of the first two forms is improving because of the dummy. The real pitfall with a perfectionist outlook is that youre never sure that you got it right through luck or skill if you strive to get it right the first time. When youre beginning is when youre supposed to make mistakes and doing these on purpose will let you know why theyre called mistakes.
Ill say again, Im a total novice, dont shoot me down Im not trying to come across as an expert. Any advice/critique welcomed. 
Pedro


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## yak sao (Apr 16, 2011)

Hey Pedro, I appreciate your enthusiasm for WC, it's a fantastic art. So much of what is WC goes on on the inside so to speak, not just the outward appearance of the movements. Please please please try to find you a qualified teacher in your area. There may not be a commercial school as such but you may be surprised what's out there being taught out of garages and basements. I hope you are able to find someone to train you...best of luck.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 17, 2011)

SNT is to develop structure,to get the idea in your mind. Dummy is not simply a training device,it also represents a "form" of movements.
In first 3 forms you become familiar with movements you will later apply on the dummy and by training with your partner. So it's good to learn to forms first,this is done with reason. There are different sections in the dummy that are heavily connected with empty-hand forms.
Ofcourse,it won't hurt you to practise the dummy even though you've learned only SNT. Feel free to practise what you've learned. Why dummy is called the most advanced form ? Because you begin to apply everything you've learned on it,because you do the most important footwork on it,and ofcourse,because you become as hard as rock by training on it.

@Pedro
Don't worry about a thing,what's important is the will to train and idea that's coming to your mind. One day if you decide to go a find yourself a Sifu,you'll correct the things you did wrong. Just keep up the good work.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 17, 2011)

I know we've beat this dead horse with a club til it's nothing but bones, but I still have to say, MacPedro, it's not wise to try to learn Wing Chun on your own by way of YouTube videos and/or books, etc.  There are hundreds of posts on this forum explaining why you shouldn't.  The most important being it does you more harm than good.  Not to mention the reputation of the art itself.  You need a qualified instructor to teach you so that you will get it right.

So maybe *we* on the forum can help.  First off, where do you live, state, county, city, neighborhood, etc.  With all the vast resources on this forum, surely we can find someone close enough for you to get the proper training.  That way, you fully understand how the art works and also don't damage further the already damaged reputation of Wing Chun.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 17, 2011)

Svemocn1vidar said:


> @Pedro
> Don't worry about a thing,what's important is the will to train and idea that's coming to your mind. One day if you decide to go a find yourself a Sifu,you'll correct the things you did wrong. Just keep up the good work.


 
How does he know he's doing good work in his training, when all he has to compare with is what he sees on YouTube.  And we all know most of the stuff on it is trash.  Practising what he sees on YouTube will not make for good Wing Chun, no matter what.  So, I have to say, bad idea.  In our lineage, we have a saying and it goes like this: 

'Do not force things.  It is dangerous to deviate from instructions or push for completion.  It takes a long time to do a thing properly.  Once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change.'  

Please pay attention to the last line, it is so important when it comes to Wing Chun training and hand skills.  The saying practice makes perfect does not apply here.  The line should really be perfect practice makes perfect.  Trying to learn WC from YouTube or a video is no where near perfect.


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## MacPedro (Apr 17, 2011)

Hello again,
              thanks everybody for the nurturing support and encouragement. I didn't mean to usurp the thread. 

I'm not _trying_ to learn on my own, it's just that I don't know of a Sifu within a hundred miles. If I hadn't family commitments I'd travel more readily. 

I'm from Aberdeenshire in Scotland and I have a choice of Edinburgh or Inverness. I'll probably head to Edinburgh once I've asked more about times. 

I don't view anything I do as definative. Just when I think I have an understanding of a move or position I come across something else that makes me think I have my energy all wrong and it's back to the drawing board. Even though it's 2 steps forward and one step back I'm still upbeat about it.

I know I'll need proper instruction for Chi Sau and this is my driver at the moment.

I'll search for those threads about 'the hidden dangers' but enough about me, this thread was about another dummy 

Pete


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 17, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> I'm not _trying_ to learn on my own. . . . .  Just when I think I have an understanding of a move or position I come across something else that makes me think I have my energy all wrong and it's back to the drawing board. Even though it's 2 steps forward and one step back I'm still upbeat about it.


 
Because you state when you think you have an understanding of a move or position you come across something else that makes you think you have your energy all wrong and it's back to the drawing board means you are trying to learn or do something with it.  Experimentation without understanding is dangerous. 



MacPedro said:


> I know I'll need proper instruction for Chi Sau and this is my driver at the moment.


 
Not just chi sau, but for the forms, the use of the hand positions, the drills, the principles, theories, concepts, everything.  Learning Wing Chun correctly cannot be done with an online study course.  You need someone who understands it and can guide you through the course.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 17, 2011)

MacPedro, have you checked out this place, claims to offer Wing Chun and is in Aberdeen:

http://aberdeen.kungfu-wutan.co.uk/


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## bully (Apr 17, 2011)

Hey MacP, welcome to the forum. I feel your pain about not having a sifu close, I am from Jersey and there is no one here to teach, I am lucky enough to have a friend who is very good but he has not got alot of time.
The guys on here are a wealth of info and will help all they can, but I will agree too that you need a sifu. I googled Scottish Wing Chun and there is lots of links (no access here in China for me though). I see that a lot are from Glasgow which doesn't help but it may be worth contacting them to see if anyone is around your area.
Your enthusiasm is what you need in WC and it will show in your training, even if you can meet with a sifu once every 2 weeks it will be a help. That professional eye on your shapes, energy etc is critical. 
Enjoy martialtalk mate.


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## MacPedro (Apr 17, 2011)

ZepedaWC,
              thank you for the link. How much WC is in Wutan does anyone here know? I'll have a search. 

Thank you also for your concern, could you elaborate on any of these dangers, what should I be vigilant of? 

I have a couple of books and these were excellent places to start learning names and sequences, I know I need a partner but I have literally bored everyone of my friends, my wife, workmates and my daughter to tears  talking about how clever and intellectual WC is. The books must be more than supplimentary knowledge though or they'd never sell any?

Bully, thank you for your advice. I have been trying to keep an eye out for any weekend long training seminars and so on that will make a long journey worthwhile. I wish I had found out about Sifu David Petersons visit to the UK before I was committed to work I would have made the effort to visit that. Did anybody here go? Maybe this should be answered in a seperate thread. I bad for this one being derailed.

Pete


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 18, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> How does he know he's doing good work in his training, when all he has to compare with is what he sees on YouTube.  And we all know most of the stuff on it is trash.  Practising what he sees on YouTube will not make for good Wing Chun, no matter what.  So, I have to say, bad idea.  In our lineage, we have a saying and it goes like this:
> 
> 'Do not force things.  It is dangerous to deviate from instructions or push for completion.  It takes a long time to do a thing properly.  Once you do something wrong, it may be too late to change.'
> 
> Please pay attention to the last line, it is so important when it comes to Wing Chun training and hand skills.  The saying practice makes perfect does not apply here.  The line should really be perfect practice makes perfect.  Trying to learn WC from YouTube or a video is no where near perfect.



I am simply saying it's better for him to train something - then nothing. Ofcourse he won't be able to learn properly over Youtube,but to be willing to train is what's most important. As he said,he can't afford to travel hundred miles to locate a Sifu atm. But don't you think he should try to get familiar with Wing Chun by himself?
If there is a "will" to learn and train something,then i dont see why i wouldnt support such enthusiasm. Even though he's probably not doing things properly,he's doing something and trying to learn,that's what counts the most.

For example - Before i found a Sifu,i did Siu Lim Tao on my own,i practiced shifting and neutral stance on my own. When i went to school,Sifu told me that i developed good basic structure and corrected my mistakes.
He also said i got my legs strong enough to start with Chi Gerk training sooner then expected. *So in my opinion,it's all good,just keep up the good work Pedro*.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 18, 2011)

Svemocn1vidar said:


> I am simply saying it's better for him to train something - then nothing.


 
I have to disagree, not if he's doing it wrong. And how will he know if he's doing it right or wrong unless there is someone to oversee him. 




Svemocn1vidar said:


> Ofcourse he won't be able to learn properly over Youtube,but to be willing to train is what's most important.


 
If he's willing to train and wants it that bad, he should make the sacrifice(s) to find a legitimate instructor and learn it the correct way. As everyone should with everything. Just because I want something doesn't mean I should get it. And especially not in a half *** way which is what self instruction or through videos and books is. If I want something that bad, it's worth the sacrifice to do it correctly and get it the proper way.




Svemocn1vidar said:


> As he said,he can't afford to travel hundred miles to locate a Sifu atm. But don't you think he should try to get familiar with Wing Chun by himself?
> If there is a "will" to learn and train something,then i dont see why i wouldnt support such enthusiasm.


 
I applaud his desire and willingness to learn. And I support his enthusiasm. But not doing it in a way that may get him hurt, learn incorrectly, hurt, or damage the already damaged name of the art. And that goes for any martial art, or anything that you, he, or I may study. If people want something that is that important to them, they find ways to free up the time, get the money, make the sacrifices to do it the right way. And learning Wing Chun only has one right way, through a good instructor. 




Svemocn1vidar said:


> Even though he's probably not doing things properly,he's doing something and trying to learn,that's what counts the most.


 
No it is not. What counts is that he learn something that is usefull, and you get that by training it correctly because one day he may have to use it to protect himself or others. If learned correctly, he will trust he can put 100% into using it and rest assured he did his best because he had the correct training. If learned incorrectly, it may get him and others hurt or even worse, killed. 




Svemocn1vidar said:


> For example - Before i found a Sifu,i did Siu Lim Tao on my own,i practiced shifting and neutral stance on my own. When i went to school,Sifu told me that i developed good basic structure and corrected my mistakes.


 
Maybe you're that 1 in 1000 who can get it right without too much guidance. But you said it yourself, when you found a sifu, he *MADE CORRECTIONS*, which means you were doing some things wrong. And now your Wing Chun is better for it. How does MacPedro or anyone else know they are just as good, better, or worse than you were? Or that they even have an idea that they may be doing it right or wrong? They don't, not without giudance. 

I have seen too many people trying to learn Wing Chun on their own, come visit me only to find they were going the wrong way, doing it wrong, and totally screwing up the art, thinking they knew what they were doing only to find out what they were doing was pure ****. From forms, to hand positions, to drills, to chi sau, all of it just crap. And also find out some of them were out there teaching this crap, convincing people they can defend themselves if they just follow what they were taught.

I'm not saying he has to go to class 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. What I am saying is he should seek out someone qualified to teach him from the start, go to class, once, twice, three times a month, and be under the guidance of someone who can help him correct his mistakes as they arise, instead of trying to do it on his own. Get the *right start, the right foundation,* and continue from there. Surely he can find the time and money for qualified instruction a few times a month, don't you think? If he can't then he shouldn't be wasting his time on martial arts. It may take him some time to learn, but at least he knows he's on the right track. 




Svemocn1vidar said:


> He also said i got my legs strong enough to start with Chi Gerk training sooner then expected.


 
Well, good for you.



Svemocn1vidar said:


> *So in my opinion,it's all good,just keep up the good work Pedro*.


 
I'm tired of people having the attitude that if you want something or want to do something, you can just go ahead and do it any way you want, right or wrong. Whatever happen to doing it right with good old hard work, perseverance, and pride. By you saying it's all good, you're willing to condon his learning Wing Chun wrong just to satisfy his ego that he's learning something, even if it's wrong. I'm sorry, I can't do that.

MacPedro, go out and find a qualified instructor before you go any further, do it the right way. You'll be so much better for it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 18, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Maybe you're that 1 in 1000 who can get it right without too much guidance. But you said it yourself, when your found a sifu, he MADE CORRECTIONS, which means you were doing some things wrong. And now your Wing Chun is better for it. How does MacPedro or anyone else know they are just as good, better, or worse than you were? Or that they even have an idea that they may be doing it right or wrong? They don't, not without giudance.
> 
> I have seen too many people trying to learn Wing Chun on their own, come visit me only to find they were going the wrong way, doing it wrong, and totally screwing up the art, thinking they knew what they were doing only to find out what they were doing was pure ****. From forms, to hand positions, to drills, to chi sau, all of it just crap. And also find out some of them were out there teaching this crap, convincing people they can defend themselves if they just follow what they were taught.
> 
> I'm not saying he has to go to class 5 days a week, 8 hours a day. What I am saying is he should seek out someone qualified to teach him from the start, go to class, once, twice, three times a month, and be under the guidance of someone who can help him correct his mistakes as they arise, instead of trying to do it on his own. Get the right start, the right foundation, and continue from there. Surely he can find the time and money for qualified instruction a few times a month, don't you think? If he can't then he shouldn't be wasting his time on martial arts. It may take him some time to learn, but at least he knows he's on the right track.


 
I have to comment here based on my current experience. But first let me state I agree with zepedawingchun.

I have been trained Siu Lim Tao twice by my sifu and partially a 3rd time by another sifu. I am currently working on it on my own but I would not say I am training Wing Chun. I am working on Siu lim tao but mostly form an internal perspective which comes from my years of training what many categorize as ICMA styles. And there have been times I have had to look at a video to see if I was even close to right due to the amount of time that has passed between my actual training and now. I am using videos that my sifu recommended as a bit of a guide to assist in memory but they still do not substitute for training with my sifu. I would not go out and tell people I train Wing Chun and I try my best to not say I train Wing Chun on MT, although I imagine I have failed at that more than once. I try to stress I &#8220;trained&#8221; Wing Chun and I am currently working on Siu Lum Tao. 

Now with all that said I am absolutely 100% sure I have picked up some bad habits and I absolutely know that if I want those corrected I need to go back to my sifu to have him correct my form, which I am considering, but at this point I have not made the decision to do that because to do that means I am seriously training Wing Chun. 

I understand someone having a desire to train a specific art and I understand the frustration of not having anyone remotely close to you who teaches it but going to purely video training without a sifu I simply do not think is a good idea and I am currently of the belief that it would be better to focus on a martial art that you could get to and could work with a teacher on and who knows, somewhere down the road you may actually find the teacher you were looking for in the art you wanted&#8230;or you may discover you were in the art you wanted all along.



zepedawingchun said:


> I'm tired of people having the attitude that if you want something or want to do something, you can just go ahead and do it any way you want, right or wrong. Whatever happen to doing it right with good old hard work, perseverance, and pride. By you saying it's all good, you're willing to condon his learning Wing Chun wrong just to satisfy his ego that he's learning something, even if it's wrong. I'm sorry, I can't do that.
> 
> MacPedro, go out and find a qualified instructor before you go any further, do it the right way. You'll be so much better for it.


 
Sadly the old days are dead and gone and the web and that availability of DVDs and the plethora of teachers wanting to cash in on distance education have gone a long ways in killing them.

But you are right and I do believe that one is better looking for a Martial Arts Teacher in their area to train a martial art in their area rather than focus on one that is unattainable at that moment. This however does not mean it will always be unattainable, could be the class you take in another art leads you to exactly where you want to be or exactly where you needed to be and did not realize it.


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## mook jong man (Apr 18, 2011)

Zepeda is 110 % correct on this , this guy is just creating a crap load of work for his eventual future Sifu as he will have to iron out all the incorrect movements that have now become habitualised.

Students still get things wrong even when I'm standing there in front of them correcting them , you will tell them something is wrong , show them the correct way , they will do it correctly for a few reps then slowly but surely they will slip back into the wrong method.
Then what usually happens is I will have to create some sort of drill to engrain the correct movement into them.

So if people can get things wrong under such close supervision , how in the hell can you learn from a book or video clips.

I believe that you learn in three ways .


Watch the instructor and mimic his technique.
Have the instructor do the technique on you , so you can see what it feels like.
Then do the technique many, many times  against varying individuals , at varying levels of intensity under the guidance of a qualified instructor.
One of my old instructors used to say " If you can make the technique work against ten different people , then your doing well ".


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## MacPedro (Apr 18, 2011)

Dear All,
         thank you all for your care and advice. I regret giving anyone the impression that I was about to think I knew anything indepth about WC from what I have been doing so far. I only meant what I said about the dummy to help Xue Sheng. His signature message seems to support this.
   I know that in order to proceed with this beautiful and ingenious form I will need a teacher. I get it. I had allowed my embarrassment at being in the limelight to prevent me saying as much. I am not driven by ego, those urges left me with youth. 

I cant imagine how I would go about damaging the rep of Wing Chun. I am not about to wade into street fights shouting  The hand that blocks, also strikes...your face, Aiieeee! 

I have always felt that to try to solve problems with violence gives you nothing but more problems. I don't get into fights. I haven't the heart to wreck someones face, this is a morale choice of my own. I suppose I'm a pacifist who feels an obligation to learn how to control an adversary rather than slay them. (Jet Li's Fearless is an excellent illustration of this but I digress).

Once more I am sorry.
Do not be troubled a teacher will be forthcoming, the student is obviously not yet ready

Pedro


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 19, 2011)

MacPedro said:


> . . . . .I can&#8217;t imagine how I would go about damaging the rep of Wing Chun. I am not about to wade into street fights shouting &#8220;The hand that blocks, also strikes...your face, Aiieeee!&#8221;


 
You damage the rep of Wing Chun by training from books and dvds, on your own, not knowing what you're doing. Then touting your knowledge of the art only to find when you attempt to use it, you get your *** handed to you by some punk who touts he kicked *** on a Wing Chun master. Cause to the general public, if you do martial arts, you're a master. 

Then from there on, that punk will always have something bad to say about Wing Chun. He'll say stuff like 'that Wing Chun aint so bad' or 'it really sucks because I kicked *** on someone who did it and I'm not trained'.  And so you will have nothing but bad stuff to say because you'll claim it let you down. When in reality, you let the art down by not finding qualified instruction and training the way it should be.


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## wtxs (Apr 19, 2011)

Yooo Zapeda .... I was wondering when you gonna jump in on this book/video training thing.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 19, 2011)

@ Zep :
I respect your opinion. Allthough it seems to me you're somewhat bitter about me expressing my own. Nothing can be achieved without enthusiasm and training. The guy said he tried some stuff and can't find an instructor at the moment,my advice for him was to train basic stuff that can easily be corrected,yours was to do nothing.

Difference of opinion.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 20, 2011)

Svemocn1vidar said:


> @ Zep :
> I respect your opinion. Allthough it seems to me you're somewhat bitter about me expressing my own. Nothing can be achieved without enthusiasm and training. The guy said he tried some stuff and can't find an instructor at the moment,my advice for him was to train basic stuff that can easily be corrected,yours was to do nothing.
> 
> Difference of opinion.


 
I am not bitter, you weren't giving just your opinion, you were giving him advice.  And I feel your giving the wrong advice. I didn't say he should do nothing, I said he shouldn't try to do Wing Chun on his own. I'm sure there are other martial arts within his area he can train (I even gave him a link in his area to a place which does several martial arts, Wing Chun being part of it). But he claims Wing Chun is not one of them. As an instructor of Wing Chun for 23 years, I'm telling you training on his own with no guidance is a mistake. I have seen many examples of it over the years and I can tell you from first hand experience, it's not the best way to go about learning. And not just Wing Chun, but for any martial art. 

Basic stuff once done wrong is not easily fixed, contrary to what you may believe. I see it everyday in student(s) who trained with someone else before coming to me to learn. Sometimes it takes years to change one simple motion that makes a difference in any and all your hand positions. Basics are the foundation, and once they are ingrained incorrectly, they *are* hard to fix. 

Here's an example, some Sifu's teach their students to shift or pivot on their heels, some on the balls of their feet, and even others teach them to shift on the middles. I had a couple of students join my class 4 years ago, coming from another Wing Chun school, which shift different than what I teach. And to this day, after my constant addressing, reminding, catching, re-iterating over and over and over, how and why, they still shift the way they were initially taught from the previous instructor, which is differently than students who began their training with me. Now you may say, what difference does how they shift make? A world of difference, enough that I can capitalize on it when I feel they don't do it the way I have taught. And that's just one example.

Bad habits start at the basics and need to be addressed when they begin. Training on your own, without guidance does nothing to address or prevent the problem from happening. That is why I say doing nothing is better than doing something that is not supervised. In the long run, you *are* wasting your time, and hurting yourself more than helping.


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