# Martial Artists and chiropractors



## girlbug2 (Apr 14, 2011)

Inspired by my own recent visit, getting "adjusted" for the first time ever. It was very fast and not painful as I'd been lead to believe. I still feel good 3 days later. Now I think I will become addicted to this.

My lower back had been sore on and off for a few years now, but I only recently got talked into trying a chiropractor for it. In fact it was primarily because my sore back was affecting my ability to do a roundhouse kick that tipped me over.

Do you visit a chiropractor, and if so, for what condition? Is it martial arts related? 

Do you believe that it has benefitted you significantly? Tell us!


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## fangjian (Apr 15, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Inspired by my own recent visit, getting "adjusted" for the first time ever. It was very fast and not painful as I'd been lead to believe. I still feel good 3 days later. Now I think I will become addicted to this.
> 
> My lower back had been sore on and off for a few years now, but I only recently got talked into trying a chiropractor for it. In fact it was primarily because my sore back was affecting my ability to do a roundhouse kick that tipped me over.
> 
> ...



I have many times for numerous conditions. It seemed to have helped. 

However, Chiropractic is *pseudoscience* and most of it could just be placebo effect.


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## fangjian (Apr 15, 2011)

fangjian said:


> I have many times for numerous conditions. It seemed to have helped.
> 
> However, Chiropractic is *pseudoscience* and most of it could just be placebo effect.



I actually posted this video to my fb page, and some of my friends are not understanding why I'd post it. since I've always had a great experience at my chiropractor. Let's just say, I think more double blind tests need to be made so we can get to the bottom of it. 

[yt]tLr-v9K9ZKk[/yt]


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## DeltaDawn (Apr 15, 2011)

I go regularly, every six weeks when everything is fine.  Right now I'm every other week due to some shoulder issues.  I started six years ago, for pregnancy related hip pain, and I do think it helps, though it isn't the cure all I wish it was.  But he has helped me not just with spine related issues, but also a jammed thumb, congestion, and other random complaints.

He's always giving me a hard time about karate related bruises, though.


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## shesulsa (Apr 15, 2011)

I've been to a couple.  One was just a crack-attack kind of chiro - crack everything he could manipulate if it cracked.  I was NOT impressed and NOT helped.

I had a reoccurring lower back problem where, at times, I would get a spasm I could feel coming on and eventually the pain was so bad I could not stand - literally.  It only happened occasionally until about fifteen years ago.

We were tent-camping; I could feel my back was rather tight, so I got dressed and prepared to leave the tent and then I sneezed while on my hands and knees.  I had a very small rupture that leaked a few drops of CSF which put me into severe spasms.

Ever since that incident, I would get the crippling spasm and pain monthly, right along with my cycle.  I had to crawl on my hands and knees - literally.

My friends convinced me to see a local chiro we call "The Witch Doctor."  He uses not only chiropractic but also acupressure and Applied Kinesiology. He's the kind of chiro you go to with pain in your left shoulder, he adjusts your right knee and your shoulder pain and weakness is resolved.

I'm really not even sure exactly what he did to make the lower back problem go away, but it's gone. I've only had two episodes in 15 years since then. 

That said ... and please forgive me for what I'm about to say ... this chiropractor is Mormon.  There is a formidable Mormon presence in this area and this particular sector has an aggressive acquisition plan.  They only hire other Mormons, they only do business with other Mormons, they volunteer on every single non-profit committee in the area. Since this movement took a more aggressive turn, this particular chiropractor has not been as good to go to. He doesn't help us as much, the results aren't as good, he spends far less time with us than some of his other clients and he only does the crack attack anymore.  We are not Mormon.

We see someone different now. My 12-year-old son (who has been playing tackle football for four years) has sustained a compression injury in his neck and cervical spine and some of the curvature of his neck is diminished.  This has really affected his ability to focus, concentrate, learn, etcetera.  The same friend who recommended the first chiropractor found a NUCCA chiro in the area and sees him for some neck injuries sustained in a car wreck.  

NUCCA is a different technology that does NOT use the "crack attack" approach.  

Jared is benefiting TREMENDOUSLY from this approach - not only is his pain level coming down, but the rest of his spine is responding to the treatment of his upper cervical spine - a standard claim of the NUCCA approach and one that I didn't really expect to come to fruition.  He is smiling again, he is able to focus and concentrate, move more freely ... I'm *really* pleased.


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## sfs982000 (Apr 15, 2011)

I actually have a standing monthly appointment with my chiropractor.  I've been dealing with lower back issues for years now and I find that my monthly appointments definitely make a difference for me at least.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2011)

I will admit that I don't have enough information to hold an informed opinion on Chiropractors or the work they do.  I will say I have never visited one, never particularly felt the need to do so, and seriously doubt that I ever would.  

I am open to having my mind changed; but not by people who have been to them and have seen incredible improvements.  Those folks have that glazed-eye tent-revival expression that I tend to associate with 'true believers' who have been duped.  

Their experience may be real; but their tales of miracle cures and urgent entreaties that I go see a chiropractor immediately (usually theirs) for any stated illness from a cough to a stubbed toe make me entertain doubts that they're being cured; rather that they've brainwashed themselves into believing it.


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## Nomad (Apr 15, 2011)

My one visit to a chiropractor was many years ago.  It was a ~10 minute consultation, where he had me stand up, proceeded to do a parlor trick "proving" that one arm was longer than another, claimed that this was due to a misalignment of my spine, did a quick manipulation, and tried to book me for 3x/week for the indefinite future.  Um, no.

Having researched this a little, it goes well beyond the "pseudoscience" label that fangjian generously labelled it.  Chiropractic care is based on the manipulation of "subluxations" of the spine, which unfortunately, no one has *ever* shown to actually exist.  There's an excellent article debunking much of this on Quackwatch.com

And another nice article

The American Medical Association has long viewed Chiropractic care as "an unscientific cult" with no real value in modern medicine.  Although many may argue that this is to protect their "monopoly" on patient care, I'd contend that it's closer related to the complete lack of high-value scientific studies proving it's worth, and the lack of science around the basis for its existence.

IMO, chiropractors _can_ be beneficial; I just don't think they're any *more beneficial* than regular sports-related physiotherapy and massage.

When they go on to claim (and yes, I've heard chiropractors make this claim directly to my face) that they can cure completely unrelated diseases, such as diabetes, asthma, and my wife's hypothyroid, they have indeed jumped the shark and are actively causing harm by convincing people to try this instead of seeking medical intervention that actually may alleviate their conditions.  You know, stuff that's actually been shown to work in double blind clinical trials of large patient populations.  

When they want to do neck manipulations on children, it makes me want to cringe for the amount of potential harm that could result.

Recently (perhaps only here in southern California?), I've heard of "pet" chiropractors who will manipulate your dog or cat's spine in a similar manner.  Really?  _Really?_ 

Not all chiropractors fall into this category, many limit themselves to trying to help with chronic back problems on adults (closer to the methods and range of a good masseuse).  Enough do to make me look sideways at the entire profession.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 15, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am open to having my mind changed; but not by people who have been to them and have seen incredible improvements.  Those folks have that glazed-eye tent-revival expression that I tend to associate with 'true believers' who have been duped.



There are basically two kinds of chiropractors.  One considers themselves a musculo-skeletal doctor, much like a physical therapist.  They only claim to be able to treat musculo-skeletal problems, they use a balanced approach, and if something else is wrong, they direct you to the appropriate MD.  These guys seem more or less OK, and seem to get results.  Although the need for continuous long term appointments and adjustments should clue us in to the fact that the underlying problem is not being addressed.

The second kind is a true devotee of the theory of chiropractic, which as developed by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_David_PalmerDD Palmer in the late 19th century states that *all *disease, cancer, diabetes, infection, alzheimer's, you name it, is the result of misalignments of the spine or other joints.  This is a mystical and non-scientific theory, and is obviously wrong. Any chiropractor which claims to be able to treat any non-musculo-skeletal problem, no matter what it is, is such a chiropractor.  Any chiropractor who attempts to treat such problems (like cancer or depression or whatever) or will not refer you to the appropriate MD is such a chiropractor.  These chiropractors should be avoided at all costs, and may end up significantly harming you by preventing you from going to the proper doctor.

Another thing to watch out for, although not all chiropractors do it, is the overuse of the full spinal x-ray.  This amounts to a dangerous scam, since they are expensive, expose you to more radiation than a normal x-ray, and normal irregularities or inconsistencies that occur in all x-rays and between all people will be pointed to as subluxations which must be treated.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2011)

Can you add a 5th choice

1) Yes, often.
2) Yes, occasionally. 
3) No, but I'm open to it. 
4) No, they're a bunch of quacks 
5) No, no I don't


Nothing against them I just have no desire to go to one nor do I have any plans on going to one. So I guess I'm not open to it but I do not think they are a bunch of quacks either.


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## girlbug2 (Apr 15, 2011)

My chiropractor appears to be the first type that Empty Hands talks about, the one that sticks to musculo-skeletal problems. He didn't suggest an x ray nor did he try to sell me anything. He was as professional as my regular MD.

Fangjian, thanks again for that video. It's good to be aware of the various scams that are out there.

Shesula, I am glad to hear that your son is doing so well now. How awful that you had to experience a sort of reverse discrimination scenario with your former chiropractor. I know somebody who lives in Utah among Mormons whose experiences confirm that they do professionally and socially exclude anybody not of their "flock"--very unlike my California Mormon neighbors who are the nicest people (even though I disagree with their beliefs, we get along wonderfully). But for a medical professional to give less than his best care to non-Mormons--inexcusable.


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## girlbug2 (Apr 15, 2011)

Xue you're right but I don't know how to add anther option .


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 15, 2011)

girlbug2 said:


> Xue you're right but I don't know how to add anther option .


 

ok then I vote No, but I'm open to it even though they may or may not be a bunch of quacks


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## Namii (May 15, 2011)

I went to one for the first time last month. I only had two sessions. 
I had gone in because my mid back around the spine area was very tight. And one of my vertebrae was sticking out more than normal. This one had always stuck out but it was bugging me. 
He was a very talkative and nice guy. It was a positive experience but I still dont know what to think about chiropractors. This is how it went:
He had me do some range of motion movements, tested my reflexes with that little hammer, and then had me stand in front of a mirror. He commented on how my neck was tilted one way and my foot was going another. 
he then did the treat ment= cracking the midback area, my neck, and my hips. He said that because of my neck and hips being off is what caused me to have the back pain( ok? ) 
I felt great afterwards. I was all nice and loose. It wasnt painful like i was fearing.
I then went back for the follow up apt. and had the same procedure done. That one felt good too. He called it a "final tune up" He then said I was good to go unless something else came up. 
Well the next day we had a particular hard training in my sword class. The next days after that class my back returned to the same way it was before the chiropractor visit. So I did some research, and developed a short back stretching routine that I do every day or at least after each class. I had never stretched out my back after my classes before. I had been stretching everything else out but forgetting the back and thats what I think was causing the pain/tightness. For this past month of making sure I stretched the back too, I havent had any pain or tightness. 
Another odd/cool thing is that might somehow be related to this is that I havent had to use my inhaler in this past month. (i have had to have at least one puff a day for the past year) You would think now that allergy season is in full swing  I would be puffing on that thing like crazy.


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## Kemposhot (May 21, 2011)

I've gone a few times.  Go every couple of months now.  It helped me when I was experiencing spasms in my back.  I had to go once a week for about 2 months.  Which in my opinion was better than what the MD wanted me to do, which was take muscle relaxers/pain killers.  

I don't think Chiropractic works for everything, however, there are many problems in which it can help.


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## SahBumNimRush (May 23, 2011)

I am both well informed and biased about this subject, as both my wife and I are chiropractic physicians.  I have a bachelors of science degree in both Biology and Chemistry from West Virginia Wesleyan College and a doctorate in Chiropractic Medicine from National University of Health Sciences (Chicago).  As with any profession there are many ways to skin a cat (some very efficient, others not at all).  

Joint manipulation is only one treatment that we use in our office, and many patients that we see do not receive joint manipulation.  We offer a wide variety of services that allow us to effectively treat a wide variety of conditions.  In fact, I see more foot and ankle complaints than I am back pain right now.. .  We offer medical cold laser, intermittent mechanical traction, therapeutic exercise and rehab (physical therapy), acupuncture, instrument assisted soft tissue mobilization (graston technique), interferential muscle stimulation, and joint manipulation, so that we can create a custom treatment plan to fit the individual patient's needs.  

I am not going to sit here and defend every chiropractic physician, because, as with every profession there are nuts that slip through the cracks.. .  Some run "conveyor belt" practices where nearly everyone gets the same treatment (therefore it's only marginally effective on most patients).  Some attempt to sign you up for a large number of visits before they even look at you.. .  Others wish to treat you for a single condition for months even years (which says they never figured out what the problem was in the first place)! and the list goes on.

However, many of our acute patients are only seen once or twice and then released from care.  Chronic problems may have to be treated over weeks and sometimes over a couple of months, but those are severe cases.  

What is important to find out when you see any chiropractic physician, is what are their METHODS of assessment.  You cannot treat someone effectively if you don't have a systematic approach to identifying what the hell is going on!  

Functional Movement Screening, Selective Functional Movement Assessments, Orthopedic Examination, Neurologic Examination, and Gait analysis with dynamic force plates and video caputre make up the core of my approach to assessing what is going on with my patients.  

Depending on your state's scope of practice some chiropractic physicians can only treat the spine, while other state's define chiropractic medicine as a neuro-musculoskeletal specialist.  Furthermore, some chiropractic colleges still teach the core approach that was taught back in the 1800's, while others teach evidence based physical medicine.  It can be difficult to know what kind of chiropractor is in your area without asking questions first.  

I do not take offense to the posts above that disparage chiropractic care, because if your experience was with a sub par physician it is easy to get a less than trusting opinion of the entire profession.  However, I assure you all that there are those of us that practice an evidence based, systematic approach to patient care that get significant results in a reasonable time period. 

I will reiterate that these problems are not something that is unique to the chiropractic profession, although for a multitude of reasons my profession seems to have a higher proportion of non-evidence based care.


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## SahBumNimRush (May 23, 2011)

What if someone called your martial art quackery because they went to some mcdojo where the instructor learned his material from a mail order black belt course, played dress up in ridiculous costumes and lived a distorted fantasy life.. . We all know these people are out there, and if it were your first exposure to said art, it could easily turn you off from the whole martial art entirely.  

Any intelligent person should do their due diligence before writing off an entire field/art/profession.  If it were not for chiropractic care I would never have returned to martial arts after a near fatal car accident in high school.  I sustained 23 rib fractures, collapsed right lung, fractured sternum, lacerated pericardium, lacerated spleen, double lacerated left kidney, severe concussion to Broca's area, and my left temporalis muscle was cut in half.  After being released from the Hospital, there was no mention of rehab or physical medicine of any sort.  I lived with severe muscoloskeletal pain and tension headaches for 2 years before I saw my first chiropractic physician.  A total of 6 visits over the course of a couple of months and my pain was 90% gone, and while that may sound miraculous, keep in mind that Rocket Science isn't rocket science to a rocket scientist. 

It was a turning point in my life, and I wanted to give back to my community the care that I had received.  I took my education very seriously, went to undergraduate college and graduated with double science degrees, took my MCAT's and scored a 31, and then went to Chiropractic school.  

It was not until I went to chiropractic school that I realized the profession was polarized between "straight chiropractors" and "medical chiropractors."  The only chiropractic physician that I had seen was just like any other physician I had seen.  I personally believe that there should be two separate degrees between the two, so that the general public can more easily discern what kind of approach to care their local chiropractor takes, but I don't know that this will ever happen.. .


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