# Where are all the fighters?



## yak sao (Jun 5, 2012)

As some of you know, I teach a small group of 12 or so from my home.
Don't get me wrong, I love the group of guys I teach, but by and large, they're not fighters.
They range in age from 19-52, with the majority of them in their 40's, which means they're family men with all the trappings, wife, kids, jobs/ careers, etc.
The trouble is I can't keep them consistant. Birthday parties, little league, overtime, "my wife wants me to stay home", you know all the reasons. And for the most part, they are reasons, not excuses. I know people have lives and have ( and want) to do those things.
The thing is, most of them don't train at home like they should...not really.
Where are the guys who are ate up with it? Who are hungry to learn and come to class every time the door's open. Who train their butts off outside of class, developing their skills and their bodies, getting with buddies every chance they can to cross hands. That's what I did...that's what I still do.
Where are these guys?
Where are the fighters?


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## WC_lun (Jun 5, 2012)

I was like that in my 20's.  then life happened and I slowly came to realize that while martial arts are part of who i am, there's more to life.  I also came to appreciate real martial arts a lot more, so I was able to recognize when the oppurtunity came up to train with a really skilled sifu.  In my 20's. I'd never have recognized that.  I guess what I'm saying is, don't be too bummed out about not having the gung ho student.  There are trade offs.


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## mograph (Jun 5, 2012)

Yeah, it's really hard to be that way about anything once you get married and have a family, whether its kung fu, sports or playing with a band. When you're home, you need to be with the kids, fix the house, that sort of thing, or just relax from the demands of the day. It is unfortunate if the relaxation involves vegetating in front of the TV, but such seems to be the modern way.

 One more thing: there are guys who work their butts off even though they have a family; these are the guys who run a small business. They do this for survival. I can only see this happening with kung fu in the case of professional fighters or bodyguards ... otherwise we're talking about sport and recreation, I suppose.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> The thing is, most of them don't train at home like they should...not really.



This is the norm for just about every MA I have been in or taught over the last 20 years, except for Sanda. And it is something that has always annoyed me. Note on Sanda it was only my sifu and me so I don't really count that one as it applies to the quote.



yak sao said:


> Where are the fighters?



Good question but I will say this, no matter how hard I train or have trained, no matter how much time I put in my wife (Chinese native) always tells me it is just a hobby.


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## yak sao (Jun 5, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Good question but I will say this, no matter how hard I train or have trained, no matter how much time I put in my wife (Chinese native) always tells me it is just a hobby.



I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight.
I understand that as we get older we can't mix it up as much or as often as when younger, but we should always have the mindset of a fighter. Even if our opponent for the most part is our own bodies as we fight against complacency, laziness, old age.......


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## wtxs (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. *Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight*..



ON the other hand, you may HAVE to fight if some macho guy finds out you're into that sissy ballet stuff.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I agree, unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby. But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight.
> I understand that as we get older we can't mix it up as much or as often as when younger, but we should always have the mindset of a fighter. Even if our opponent for the most part is our own bodies as we fight against complacency, laziness, old age.......




Agreed...mostly... as a martial artist we should all train as if we are a fighter....but I am talking outside the school, while at home. the only place we may disagree is likely not that big a deal... and we may not disagree at all actually....I would never refer to a good Wing Chun class as a Ballet... I have seen Taiji classes that are nothing but dance, but then there was little or no focus on MA. And then there are those that are convinced that the simple act of walking into a MA school and training once a week makes them invincible so there is no need to train anywhere else. 

It is that training... with intent... at home... that makes all the difference. And of course what the student is actually after in the first place; health, physical fitness, Martial Arts, bragging rights, impress the neighbors.

But regardless I have to admit that of late I too am wondering where all the fighters have gone. Things just aint what they


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## yak sao (Jun 5, 2012)

I don't think we disagree at all. I'm sure it's in my wording.
Walking into a MA school doesn't make you a fighter anymore than walking into a garage makes you a car.
To be a fighter train like one...don't just mimic the movements.


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## yak sao (Jun 5, 2012)

wtxs said:


> ON the other hand, you may HAVE to fight if some macho guy finds out you're into that sissy ballet stuff.



It's so hard to look macho in a pink tutu.


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## wtxs (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> It's so hard to look macho in a pink tutu.





wtxs said:


> ON the other hand, you may HAVE to fight if some macho guy finds out you're into that sissy ballet stuff.



:slapfight::slapfight::slapfight::lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## Eric_H (Jun 5, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> But regardless I have to admit that of late I too am wondering where all the fighters have gone. Things just aint what they



It begins and ends with the teacher, where is the culture that breeds fighters? The type that turns tubs of goo into actual fighting machines?

It ain't in CMA, at least not that I've ever seen.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> It begins and ends with the teacher, where is the culture that breeds fighters? The type that turns tubs of goo into actual fighting machines?
> 
> It ain't in CMA, at least not that I've ever seen.



Sometimes it&#8217;s the teacher and sometimes it&#8217;s the studentsand sometimes it is you geographical locations too. Whatever it is it just does not feel the same as it did 40 years ago or 20 years ago for that matter... But then maybe it is just me.


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## mograph (Jun 5, 2012)

Here are a series of disconnected generalizations that may paint a picture:

In general, kids don't take martial arts in school, so there are no martial arts pick-up leagues for adults.
People in cities generally don't need to fight. If somebody does, he probably has a gun.
MMA is popular now, like karate or kung fu in the seventies. If it weren't a popular spectator sport, would people want to participate in it?
People want to lose weight and sometimes get fit. So they will do martial arts if it's good cardio and they don't have to think too much.

Martial Arts are difficult, requiring sacrifices. 
A high level of skill in anything requires sacrifices. If the benefit is not immediately apparent, the average Joe will not appreciate the sacrifices.

Ah. One more: the key to success has been said to be _the delay of gratification_. 
The desire for instant gratification is a problem with us people, and a high level of (martial) skill requires a delay of gratification.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> It's so hard to look macho in a pink tutu.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Where are the guys who are ate up with it? Who are hungry to learn and come to class every time the door's open. Who train their butts off outside of class, developing their skills and their bodies, getting with buddies every chance they can to cross hands. That's what I did...that's what I still do.
> Where are these guys?
> Where are the fighters?



If you continue to teach, you may have a handful of these guys in your career.  If so, count yourself lucky.  They are out there but they are not the norm.


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## geezer (Jun 5, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I agree,* unless you are a proffesional, it is just a hobby.* But as a MA student, leaving aside the self development, physical exercise, stress relief, or whatever other reason you practice, it is a martial art, so we should be fighters. Otherwise we may as well be taking ballet, which is very good at teaching you not to fight.



The first problem is right here. There really isn't any professional outlet for a WC/WT/VT fighter... outside of teaching. And that's not _fighting_. If you have the physique, ability and mentality to be a _professional_ fighter, your options are boxing, mma and possibly hockey. WC/WT/VT isn't going to get you the rewards you want. Not the money, not the fame, not even the opportunity to fight a lot in competition.

Secondly, if you are a bouncer or LEO and you want fighting skills that you can use on the job, a traditional martial art may have value, but it is a slow and roundabout way to get the practical skills that you need now. 

So that leaves the hobbyists. Sad fact of life. If we want reality, the best choice is to experience instructors who have been fighters. In my own experience, Rene Latosa (Escrima), Emin Boztepe (WT), and Martin Torres (Eskrima) are three who come to mind. But fighters are not always great teachers. _Especially when they are still in their fighting years._ 



yak sao said:


> I understand that _as we get older we can't mix it up_ as much or as often as when younger, but we should always have the mindset of a fighter. Even if our opponent for the most part is our own bodies as we fight against complacency, laziness, old age.......



This is where I'm at now. After my last,  and possibly worst injury ...messing up my back in March, I'm not sure if I will be able to really go at it full bore (or even "half-bore") ever again. And, there is the age thing. I'll be 57 next month. A friend, Maestro Martin recently asked me if I wanted to start a WC class at his MMA gym. I had to be straight-forward and told him that right now I'm just doing WC "at it's most compliant and unrealistic". He laughed really hard, then after a long pause, said that's why he asked me. As he put it, "At least you are being honest and know the difference. Phonies won't do that". 

Maybe I'll give it a shot. Martin is the real thing: a boxer, grappler and eskrimador, but he's also studied WT way back. With his input, maybe some of his guys can get something useful out of it. Otherwise, I'd probably end up just teaching the dads, brothers and wives... the non-fighters who drop into the gym.


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## cwk (Jun 6, 2012)

I feel you Yak Sao,
Getting students to train out of class= the bane of my existence 


I've got a small but good set of lads training with me at the moment, they train hard in class and are always up for some sparring and using contact in drills, but getting them to practice anything outside of class is non starter. It's a shame that they don't realise how much of a difference just an hour a day would make as the potential is there. It's frustrating having to go over the exact same material in class week after week because they haven't practiced and have forgotten all the details taught the week before. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for training fundamentals religiously but I think it should be done in the students own time so that when they come to class, they can be quickly checked and corrected and then spend more time doing partner exercises,sparring,etc
Think I need to bang my head some more lol-


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## mograph (Jun 6, 2012)

CWK, have you tried telling them that they can't spar until they show competency at something they should have drilled at home? In other words, just keep repeating the old lessons until they realize you won't move on until they improve?


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2012)

mograph said:


> CWK, have you tried telling them that they can't spar until they show competency at something they should have drilled at home? In other words, just keep repeating the old lessons until they realize you won't move on until they improve?



and then they quit.... which to me is ok but if it is your business it is a different story.

My taiji sifu, for the longest time, would not allow anyone to start push hands until they had a pretty good grasp of the long form but it is not his business so he didn't care if they left. After several years he simply got tired of it, felt no one really cared about real taiji anymore and started allowing people to progress to push hands. Now this is what happens... they don't train it, never advance at it and eventually quit just the same&#8230; it is still not his business and he still does not care but it is just reinforcing his view of what he feels many think about taijiquan.


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## yak sao (Jun 6, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> and then they quit.... which to me is ok but if it is your business it is a different story.
> 
> My taiji sifu, for the longest time, would not allow anyone to start push hands until they had a pretty good grasp of the long form but it is not his business so he didn't care if they left. After several years he simply got tired of it, felt no one really cared about real taiji anymore and started allowing people to progress to push hands. Now this is what happens... they don't train it, never advance at it and eventually quit just the same&#8230; it is still not his business and he still does not care but it is just reinforcing his view of what he feels many think about taijiquan.



Pretty much the same story here. We go over the same stuff week after week because most of them are not practicing. After a while, either out of pity or boredom(mine, not so much theirs), I will move them on. It does no good, because now there's just more for them not to practice.
I have this student a month or so back who got into a little scuffle in a parking lot...nothing too serious. He came to class and was telling about it. His exact words were " I didn't even think about using Wing Tsun".
This bonehead has been coming to class (very off and on) since 2005, and he "forgot"?????????
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go bang my head against a wall.......


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## jks9199 (Jun 6, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Pretty much the same story here. We go over the same stuff week after week because most of them are not practicing. After a while, either out of pity or boredom(mine, not so much theirs), I will move them on. It does no good, because now there's just more for them not to practice.
> I have this student a month or so back who got into a little scuffle in a parking lot...nothing too serious. He came to class and was telling about it. His exact words were " I didn't even think about using Wing Tsun".
> This bonehead has been coming to class (very off and on) since 2005, and he "forgot"?????????
> Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go bang my head against a wall.......



That's a totally different issue, though there is a relation.  Under pressure like a real fight, not sparring, it's normal for the mind to go blank.  A person's not likely to "think" about what they're doing until they get a fair amount of exposure and experience to it.  What may well happen, if they've practiced diligently, both in class and out of class, is automatic responses that reflect their training.  If they've trained diligently, I'd expect a statement along the lines of "this guy got in my face, and I'm not sure what I did, but I pushed his punch out of the way, and then started punching him in the face..." (my poor attempt at describing a parry followed by chain punching...)


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## yak sao (Jun 6, 2012)

That's my point. you don't know something until you can do it. I'm constantly telling the guys that you don't learn WT in class, you learn it at home through diligent practice.
I think many (if not most ) MA students think that because they go to class a time or two a week, and have this theory and a handful of techniques swimming through their head, that they know how to handle themselves.
I know we're all just normal every day guys with lives to lead outside of class, but if they're going to train in a fighting art, they need to  take it to heart, otherwise, I'm afraid they are setting themselves up for a fall....one they may not stand back up from.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Pretty much the same story here. We go over the same stuff week after week because most of them are not practicing. After a while, either out of pity or boredom(mine, not so much theirs), I will move them on. It does no good, because now there's just more for them not to practice.
> I have this student a month or so back who got into a little scuffle in a parking lot...nothing too serious. He came to class and was telling about it. His exact words were " I didn't even think about using Wing Tsun".
> This bonehead has been coming to class (very off and on) since 2005, and he "forgot"?????????
> Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go bang my head against a wall.......



I was working with a guy in my first sifu's class on a taijiquan 2 person form and he was not completing anything. He was way too soft and totally ineffective and afterwards I was talking with him about the need to complete each form because from a martial arts point of view what he is doing will get him hurt if he ever tried to use any of this to defend himself.... his response......"I don't DO martial arts....I DO TAIJI!!!!" And he then walked away. Another guy in that class, after I showed him a Qinna application or two told me that I had it all wrong and not to worry, I would get it if I keep at it. 

Basically I feel yout pain


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## yak sao (Jun 6, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> I was working with a guy in my first sifu's class on a taijiquan 2 person form and he was not completing anything. He was way too soft and totally ineffective and afterwards I was talking with him about the need to complete each form because from a martial arts point of view what he is doing will get him hurt if he ever tried to use any of this to defend himself.... his response......"I don't DO martial arts....I DO TAIJI!!!!" And he then walked away. Another guy in that class, after I showed him a Qinna application or two told me that I had it all wrong and not to worry, I would get it if I keep at it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds like you're a ram among sheep


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 6, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Sounds like you're a ram among sheep



That was years ago...These days I am old, beat-up, over-weight and just a fluffy as they were


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## geezer (Jun 6, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Pretty much the same story here. We go over the same stuff week after week because most of them are not practicing. After a while, either out of pity or boredom(mine, not so much theirs), I will move them on. It does no good, because *now there's just more for them not to practice.*



"More for them not to practice." Hilarious. I am definitely going to use that line in class tonight. Thanks, _Yak_.




yak sao said:


> I have this student a month or so back who got into a little scuffle in a parking lot...nothing too serious. He came to class and was telling about it. His exact words were " I didn't even think about using Wing Tsun".
> This bonehead has been coming to class (very off and on) since 2005, and he "forgot"?????????
> Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go bang my head against a wall.......



Don't be too hard on the guy. Under stress, primitive reflexes can totally take over. I've had similar experiences, which are easy to remember since I never got into a lot of fights. 

One time was after I'd had about a year of WC/WT. A big guy at the crappy job I had got in my face, I snapped and decked him with the classic "haymaker" to the jaw. Not a bit of WC/WT or any other martial art. I just 'forgot" and reacted.

Second time happened at about five years later (that's to say about 25 years ago!). Same story. Me with a hot temper, different crappy job. Different big guy, always on my case, gets right up close in my face, puts a hand on my neck...and _blowie_. I reacted again. This time with a short-range, centerline, vertical-fist punch right to his solar plexus. He doubled over and I walked out the door.

I mostly remember these two events as moments of real immaturity and stupidity which resulted in me having to look for a new job ...evidence of a childish hot temper which I've since learned to control. But after reading Yak's comments, I now see something else there unrelated to the foolishness of my actions. The second time I used pure WC/WT. So, for better or worse, with time and practice, you do internalize this stuff.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 6, 2012)

geezer said:


> "More for them not to practice." Hilarious. I am definately going to use that line in class tonight. Thanks, _Yak_.



agreed!


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## cwk (Jun 7, 2012)

mograph said:


> CWK, have you tried telling them that they can't spar until they show competency at something they should have drilled at home? In other words, just keep repeating the old lessons until they realize you won't move on until they improve?



Yeah, I tried it but it didn't make any difference. Like yak Sao said, after a while you just get bored or frustrated and move on to something else. I do however limit the level of material they are exposed to and not just  go off on a tangent and teach them all sorts. For example, all the drills,techniques, pad work etc, will be based on our fundamental 13 hands and 5 pieces of footwork. 
Up to now I haven't taught any of them our SLT, not even the short version, and it's not because I don't want to but because I think it's a waste of time if they're not going to practice it. I mean, we all know that the only way to unlock SLT is to practice the hell out of it everyday.


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 7, 2012)

A "Dad's" Perspective:

With all the bashing going on in here, I felt the need to bring in the other side of the story.

I am not totally like the description here, but I am in my 40's; currently 2.5 years into my training; am a workout/fitness nut, so I train every moment I can both in/out of the dojo; happily married for 20 years; have two young boys; and hold a demanding white collar full-time job.

With this said, I have always been interested in the martial arts but never had the opportunity to pursue this interest due primarily for financial reasons. I take my training very seriously and work diligently to learn the material and keep myself fit. I have no timeline for advancing. I recongnize that my other committments will/have slowed my advancement. My instructors hold to their standards (as they should) and everyone advances at the speed of their own development (as it should be).

I am a bit offended that this board implies this makes me less of a martial arts practicioner.

My primary commitment is to my family and then to the job that allows me to participate in the arts. I will never change this priority of committments. 

As I do not know anyone on this board I am going to make the assumption that the OP is young (20-30) with limited committments.

Sadly the cost of Martial Arts training limits the ability for younger audiences to participate, especially with the down-turned economy. Perhaps instead of insulting your revenue base, you should lower your rates to encourage more young participants (wink).

I hope you are not running your own schools with this attitude. Your contentment will easily surface and you enrollment will decline. Basic business principles.

I have a life time to go to complete my Martial Art journey. My only wish is that I had the capability of beginning my training earlier in life, but as one's path is not always chosen I have no regrets. 

I am here now. Training Hard. Loyal Husband, Loving Father ("Dad").


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2012)

I'm a loyal husband and loving father too....and been through the 40s already 

But with that said, I don't think anyone is directing any of this at you based on your description


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 7, 2012)

"Where are all the Fighters" implies that people with competing commitments are not serious about their training.

Everyone has different reasons to participate in the arts.  One's motivations are their own.

If people want to competitively fight, they should seek the schools that cater to this, or re-market their own school with a ciriculum change.  The instructors are the ones who set the tone for the instruction.  They are the ones who recruit members to their schools.

If you cant attract the "fighters" perhaps one should look at themselves and take a closer look to understand how they promote/instruct.


just my $.02


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## yak sao (Jun 7, 2012)

First of all chumley, I am 49 years old, have been training since I was 18. Every day.
I am married (24+ years)
2 sons, one in his 4th year of college, the youngest just graduated HS and will be starting in the fall.
I work full time, and have recently returned to school ( full time) as my job is on shaky grounds with the down economy.
I also teach Sunday school to a group of teenagers at my church every Sunday, So I understand busy.
I teach from my home in a workout room built off my garage and charge very little.
I don't do tournaments, nor do I encourage my students to do so.
I also understand priority. My wife was diagnosed with MS in 2003. I turned my school over to fellow instructors and decided to teach a few guys from my home who were begging me to teach them.
If you will go back and reread my OP and my subsequent posts, I repeatedly said I understand that people have lives.
All I am asking is for people to practice.

And by the way, from your self description, you are exactly the kind of student I would love to have.


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 7, 2012)

My comments are more directed at the other posts, rather than yours.

Just lots of contentment for equal or greater life choices.

If others are participating for a Hobby.....let them....that is their motivation.....Just don't advance them.....

We have an idividual in our school that attends once a week, and does very little training outside due to his demanding physcially intensive job.  He has been Orange Belt for close to 2 years.  He is fine with this and understands, yet he still comes to learn.......

He is a great guy and does what he can when he can.

Not sure why some find this offensive.

Is this the core of the school? No.

Is he a good person to work with? Yes.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2012)

EddieCyrax said:


> We have an idividual in our school that attends once a week, and does very little training outside due to his demanding physcially intensive job. He has been Orange Belt for close to 2 years. He is fine with this and understands, yet he still comes to learn.......
> 
> He is a great guy and does what he can when he can.



From a teachers perspective you want to help your students do better but you can only do so much in class, but if he is happy and not holding back anyone else it&#8217;s all good



EddieCyrax said:


> Not sure why some find this offensive.



But, and I would not call it offensive I would call it annoying, if you have a student who you have to show the same exact thing to over and over again, every single week because he does not practice outside of class and because of this constant demand for repetition you are slowing down the rest of the class then there is a problem.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I am 49 years old



DAMN!!!!! your old.... says the guy in his 50s


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## mook jong man (Jun 7, 2012)

I have encountered these problems as well with the private students I teach.
One guy will practice Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu everyday and even if he misses a few weeks of training with me , he will come back and I will notice little degradation of his skill , in fact some things may have even improved.

Another guy I'm pretty certain only does the Siu Nim Tao when I'm there doing it with him , he trains once a week.
If something comes up and he misses a week or two , then next time I have to spend most of the lesson time re-teaching him four corner deflection and Chi Sau .

If he could just get himself to spend five minutes doing the Siu Nim Tao everyday then he could make some progress and I wouldn't be constantly pulling him up about his stance and other basics.


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## mograph (Jun 7, 2012)

EddieCyrax said:


> Not sure why some find this offensive.


I think you're reading too much into this. Nobody is saying that the student who practices less than the instructor desires is somehow of deficient character. I believe that the instructors have certain expectations of progress, and most students are not meeting them for whatever reasons. There is a gap between expectations and reality, creating discomfort in the instructor. To resolve this, it may be best to change expectations, as you may have suggested (difficult to check on the iPad), as reality is harder to change.


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2012)

Times change. Sometimes there's more fighters around than other times, yet still we teach, still we train, still we love it all. Whatever the reason people train, we help them, just like someone helped us. Bottom line, that's our job.

It's all good. But, damn, I, too, wish there were more fighters around!


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## simplewc101 (Jun 8, 2012)

I'm no Sifu, but I hear what OP is saying. 
Not everyone is a fighter. Doesn't mean they aren't a hobbyist or an enthusiast, which is fine. To each their own.
I started wing chun because I saw that my fighting skills weren't horrible, but they weren't all that great, especially against faster, stronger, or more experienced people. I want to learn how to fight and win. 
After some time at a WC school, I learned that not everyone can put as much time or energy into learning and practicing as I can due to all the commitments stated by others in this thread. That's just life, people have business to attend too and that fine. I'm sure they do as much as they feel necessary given their goals and their other commitments.
Other people 'just don't get it'. Not their fault, but they just don't. Not everyone can be a good fighter (or remember half the stuff they are taught) even if they put all they have into it.
I agree with whoever said that MMA is the thing to do these days and that's where lots of the "fighters" go. Maybe it's just me, but after you've been in some fights, you realize that banging force against force isn't always the best option, and fights can be won faster and easier with some skill and theory. Stand on the shoulders of giants ( all the hundreds of years of martial arts fighters- from muay thai to kali to wing chun) and you will be able to see further. But not everyone thinks martial arts is 'cool' or practical, due to the culture and their own misunderstanding. For some reason, all Americans think that they are born with the ability to box and take care of themselves in a street fight. 

I have been blessed with a school that has some 'fighters' in it and Sifu continues to teach to our level and provide us with the knowledge and training we need.


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## Brian King (Jun 8, 2012)

I have slightly different perspectives than many others, but the following three perspectives have changed the way I teach and train. They have increased my patience, understanding, and empathy while also helping to focus my attention on what is really important (my own training as a student and instructor) and thereby increasing my skills and value.


But first a disclaimer. While I have attended a bunch of CMA seminars over the years and have friends that train in various CMA styles, I do not train or teach a CMA.


Before I offer up the first perspective, I would like every instructor who has ever taught a perfect class to raise their hand. Those with their hands raised do not need to read any further of my post, perhaps down thread there will be something of value.  Any student of any martial art that has had a perfect class, everything they learned they were able to do from first to last with perfect understanding and ability, please raise your hand. Those students with your hands raised, you do not need to read any further of this post, feel free in giving your attention down thread. 


I will be writing from the perspective of an instructor but will say that the perspectives if embraced are beneficial no matter a persons rank or current skill level.


All three perspectives offer perhaps a new way of seeing and appreciating, new eyes if you will. With these new eyes will come a new vision of what can be and how to get there.


First, we all know people that wish that they could learn martial arts. They watch some movie and think, wow, that would be great Others have been beaten down by circumstances and life and wish to learn martial arts, but do not have enough self esteem, enough gumption left to step thru the door and onto the floor. Some folks are so out of shape that they have given up the idea of becoming fitter and healthier, letting their healthy inside person only live in fantasy. Some have gotten off the couch and driven by a dojo, it is a first step but the only one that they will make. Others actually pull into the parking lot and watch a class from their car thinking, I could never do that as they pull back out the parking lot. Some even make it into class, maybe watch a lesson and grab some information, yet never take that necessary step of actually getting on the floor and starting their training journey. I would bet we all know hundreds of people that wanted to learn martial arts yet never made it, never tried, never went beyond the longing and wishing. Then there are our students. The housewife that steps way out of her comfort zone, the police officer willing to take his own time and effort and step up to learn new skills, the doctor putting into practice their own preaching. All of our students, even if they only last a single day, a single lesson have done something that millions of others have wanted to do, but, for whatever reason never have. Each student has any number of legitimate reasons to skip the training, to put it off, to shun the work and sweat, yet they get off the couch, leave work early, get home late and make all kinds of sacrifices on a journey that once started never really ends. Those that actually make it onto the floor should have the thanks and appreciation of both instructors and fellow students as getting over that initial hurdle. If a person thinks about how many want to there but never get there, it is kind of heroic that the students persisted and made it to their car, drove to the school, entered the school and stepped onto the floor, while so many others did not. So many opportunities to turn around and fail, yet here they are, ready to grow. 


Second, a confession. I have never taught a perfect class, heck, never been the perfect student either. I have lots of room to improve my articulation, my presentation of the drills and skills, my attention and ability to reach each student. Seeing every difficult student as well as every gifted student and those somewhere in-between, as an opportunity to practice the art part of teaching has given me ample opportunities to practice and grow. Yes, they have been shown a hundred and one times now, but, perhaps this one hundred and second repetition will be the one that finally makes it theirs. Besides, it is not just their hundredth attempt but also the instructors hundredth opportunity to practice teaching it.. 


Third, no one is guaranteed a tomorrow. Tonight my be the last. This very interaction, might be the last. How will it go? What will be remembered, what will be appreciated if there were no more tomorrows. Perhaps this was the last class taught. Perhaps the last class attended. Resentful, disappointed, disgusted, impatient, helpful, supportive, appreciative, insightful, which words are wanted to describe the last lesson? 


Fourth, yeah I know I said three. Sigh, see I do make a lot of mistakes and often misspeak.  Some see the tourist, the part time student, the difficult student as holding back a class. In some ways that might be true, but, at the same time they are giving the more disciplined or gifted students a tool to gauge their own progress. Perhaps when the disciplined student first started the tourist was much better than they were, but after only a year passing and now the tourist is near helpless before them. Or, perhaps they have been much better than the hobbyist, but tonight, the difficult sometime student finally got it right, just for a moment, but the timing and technique were right on and they caught the more disciplined or gifted student while sparring. Both examples can be motivating I would think.


Like watching a small child take their very first step, watching students grow, no matter how deep or how lengthy the process, can be very rewarding. Even if there are falls and reversals that first beautiful step was taken and can be further built on. Some will be sprinters, others long distance runners, others might take up swimming. It is all good. 


Warmest Regards
Brian King


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## cwk (Jun 8, 2012)

That was a nice thought provoking post Brian, Thank you.
 I'd just like to say, however, I don't think Yak sao, Myself and others were posting with any mean or malicious intent. Most of us have been talking on here for a while now and others have been doing so for much longer and I think it was just a bit of venting frustration in a non serious fashion.
I (and I'm sure most of if not all the others) am always encouraging with my words when I speak to students, and of course I realise it's not easy, but I also don't think a couple of hours per week training a little at home is too much to ask of anyone.


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## Tez3 (Jun 8, 2012)

simplewc101 said:


> I'm no Sifu, but I hear what OP is saying.
> Not everyone is a fighter. Doesn't mean they aren't a hobbyist or an enthusiast, which is fine. To each their own.
> I started wing chun because I saw that my fighting skills weren't horrible, but they weren't all that great, especially against faster, stronger, or more experienced people. I want to learn how to fight and win.
> After some time at a WC school, I learned that not everyone can put as much time or energy into learning and practicing as I can due to all the commitments stated by others in this thread. That's just life, people have business to attend too and that fine. I'm sure they do as much as they feel necessary given their goals and their other commitments.
> ...




We have a lot of people who come to our MMA and don't want to fight, they do it for the fitness, the weight loss, the self confidence you can get from doing a martial art and the general enjoyment of the sport. With us it appeals to a lot of people because we don't grade and don't have a syllabus, we teach whatever the people in on a night need to know. Most of our students are military so this suits them down to the ground (small pun forgive me) they have exercises, deployments and public duties ( the recent Jubilee stuff, lining streets etc and last year we had them away for four weeks as they were Trooping the Colour in London) at the moment it's pre-deployment training, in the Autumn they will be off to Afghan. The civvies we have are lads at school and at 15/16 they have their exams so can be off for a couple of weeks at a time, it's important they do well in their exams we stress that, school before MMA, though it does provide a relief from the stress of them. We have a couple of other lads who train but they seem to have caught the fatherhood bug and also because money is tight here they are either doing two jobs or are doing overtime to make some money. One is working over 60 hours a week. When they do make it in they tend not to have to recap the basics they seem to stick and perhaps it's a bit easier because you can 'ad lib' a bit more in MMA than TMA's.

Not having a pop here at men but a lot of them (not just Americans lol) think that like car mechanics and driving, boxing comes naturally to them!


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## yak sao (Jun 8, 2012)

I hesitate to use the term _martial artist. _In fact, Ive never really liked that term. Ive seen too many people put the emphasis on the artist part, rather than the martial part.
By being an artist, you are not held to concrete standards, because art is abstract and as weve all heard, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So to call yourself a martial artist, you are in some ways, giving yourself license to be ineffective.
Thats why I prefer the term fighter. It cuts right to the heart of what it means to study a martial art. Being a fighter is more than just putting on gloves and proceeding to beat the hell out of each other. Being a fighter is an attitude.
Being a fighter is developing mental and physical toughness. It is to keep going, even though everyone else around you has quit. It is pushing past your limits, throwing that extra couple of punches or kicks, going just one more round on the bag, running that extra 50 yards instead of taking the easy way out and just stopping to catch your breath.
Being a fighter is perfecting your skills. It is never settling for good enough, because you know it can always be done better. 
 It isnt being a troglodyte or being some sort of gung ho maniac who wants to smash their opponent.. It is treating yourself and others with respect. Being a fighter is carrying yourself with a little extra dignity.
Thats what I mean by fighter. Not everyone will have the skills of an Emin Boztepe, or a Joe Lewis. But we can learn from their work ethic. How did they get where they are? Training, and lots of it. Training while others were sitting. Training while others decided to take the night off.
We cant always do the thing wed like to do. Class time is often interrupted by family and work. Theres nothing wrong with that. In fact, family and responsibility should always come first. 
But honestly evaluate yourself. Whether you can make it to class or not, there are times throughout the day/week we can all train more than we do. We may just have the time and energy for a couple of minutes on the heavy bag, or a quick 50 pushups. But there's time.
We can all have the attitude of a fighter.


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## EddieCyrax (Jun 8, 2012)

yak,  I agree with most of your definition of a fighter.  With this said however, I think your definition of art misses the point.

I am sure you have watched trained "fighters" of all skill levels working their material, and as such you can see and admire the technical skill, flow, control, power, stance, etc as they go through the motions.  One of the largest draws (at least for me) to the martial arts is learning to move with all the adjectives descriped above.  This ease of movement and combat effectiveness only comes from the zillion hours of work.

Art does not have to be abstract and I would argue the most beautiful thing to watch is a well trained fighter.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  I would not depict the "art" side of training as weakness, but rather the beauty that is derived from all the hours and focus of ones craft.


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## yak sao (Jun 8, 2012)

EddieCyrax said:


> yak, I agree with most of your definition of a fighter. With this said however, I think your definition of art misses the point.
> 
> I am sure you have watched trained "fighters" of all skill levels working their material, and as such you can see and admire the technical skill, flow, control, power, stance, etc as they go through the motions. One of the largest draws (at least for me) to the martial arts is learning to move with all the adjectives descriped above. This ease of movement and combat effectiveness only comes from the zillion hours of work.
> 
> Art does not have to be abstract and I would argue the most beautiful thing to watch is a well trained fighter. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I would not depict the "art" side of training as weakness, but rather the beauty that is derived from all the hours and focus of ones craft.



I don't think we disagree. To see someone well trained in martial arts demonstrate their ability is an amazing thing to see. I don't equate the art side as weakness at all, in fact, that is the difference between someone of high skill who is able to perform a movement with apparent ease and a brute who simply muscles through  the movements.
The Chinese have it right: 
_Kung Fu. time and effort spent to develop a skill.

_Something that I'm afraid is sadly lacking in much of what we see today.


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## geezer (Jun 8, 2012)

yak sao said:


> The Chinese have it right: _Kung Fu. time and effort spent to develop a skill.
> 
> _Something that I'm afraid is sadly lacking in much of what we see today.



Too true, Yak Sau. I earn my living these days as a high school art teacher, and for quite a few years I've been teaching _ceramics._ Ceramics is both an art and a craft. That is to say that it has a non-functional or purely aesthetic component (art) and a functional component requiring considerable skill or craftsmanship to produce. To produce a ceramic object that is aesthetically pleasing, is well made, and elegantly functional is no mean feat. 

When I train students on the potter's wheel, I will show them simple techniques which must be practiced in precise sequence over and over to master. Few have the patience or discipline to follow through, and it shows in their lack of progress and poor work. Increasingly as the years go by, they don't  even seem to care. If it doesn't come easily, they can't be bothered. 

To get through to the kids I show them a video of a personal friend of mine who is a true master. Half a century ago he trained pottery in school, but wasn't satisfied with his level of skill, so he sought out some of the last living craftsmen potters, part of an unbroken chain of craft traceable from son to father to grandfather back across the generations to their European forbearers. He began his apprenticeship by spending over a month doing nothing but preparing clay for the journeymen potters. He had to work a hard eight hour shift and then he was allowed to stay after and use the facilities to hone his skills. 

Eventually, he became skilled enough to be allowed to join the other potters and make simple bowls. By the time he finished his training he could throw 25 pound masses of clay into very large vessels in a few minutes, and use his bare hands to transform over a thousand pounds of clay into beautiful pottery in a single day. Decades later, when I met him, he was more the artist than the potter, but he still had every ounce of his hard earned skill. 

Once at a charity benefit, I saw him make 90 high quality bowls in 90 minutes, all at a relaxed pace, talking, taking occasional breaks to get a drink or more clay. That's averaging better than a bowl a minute ...and he could maintain that pace as long as he chose. Or if he chooses, he can make huge vessels and with a few deft moves, transform them into  either abstract or figurative sculptures. Needless to say he has a grip like a vise and forearms like knotted steel cords. Now _that's_ Kung fu.

When I explain this to my high school students, they often yawn loudly, and blurt out comments like "Are you through yet? This is _sooooo_ boring". So it's not just martial arts. Welcome to the modern world!


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## yak sao (Jun 8, 2012)

geezer said:


> Too true, Yak Sau. I earn my living these days as a high school art teacher, and for quite a few years I've been teaching _ceramics._ Ceramics is both an art and a craft. That is to say that it has a non-functional or purely aesthetic component (art) and a functional component requiring considerable skill or craftsmanship to produce. To produce a ceramic object that is aesthetically pleasing, is well made, and elegantly functional is no mean feat.
> 
> When I train students on the potter's wheel, I will show them simple techniques which must be practiced in precise sequence over and over to master. Few have the patience or discipline to follow through, and it shows in their lack of progress and poor work. Increasingly as the years go by, they don't even seem to care. If it doesn't come easily, they can't be bothered.
> 
> ...



Good stuff. Keep sharing that with your students. Someday somebody is going to get it and it will inspire them to great things.
In fact, I would be willing to bet, someone's already got it.

I shared this some time ago, here it is again.

A musician took the stage, a master violinist from the Louisville Orchestra. He told the audience how he had just returned from a trip to Scotland. Every morning, he said, He would go out on the balcony, overlooking the ocean, and there would be an old Scotsman there, on the beach, clad in his traditional kilt. The violinist told us how he would sit on his balcony and listen, as the old Scotsman, looking out over the waters, would play _Amazing Grace _on the bagpipes. He related to us that it was the most beautiful and haunting thing that he had ever heard, and that he wanted to share what he experienced with us. Placing his violin under his chin, he proceeded to play _Amazing Grace; _only, it wasn&#8217;t a violin we heard, but bagpipes. This man, this master, had mastered his craft to the point, that he transcended it. He was no longer confined by the artificial boundaries imposed on him. As I closed my eyes, I was transported to that shoreline in Scotland. 

That is one of the finest examples of kung fu I have ever witnessed.


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## Triangle (Jun 8, 2012)

are you a fighter mr yak sao?


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## yak sao (Jun 8, 2012)

Triangle said:


> are you a fighter mr yak sao?



Nope...I just like to b!tch


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## Triangle (Jun 8, 2012)

Sounded like that, Im only into wing chun for the tea partys myself,


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## yak sao (Jun 8, 2012)

Triangle said:


> Sounded like that, Im only into wing chun for the tea partys myself,




Love a good glass of tea myself


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