# Okinawan karate is practiced like Japanese Karate says Patrick McCarthy



## Makalakumu (Jan 30, 2009)

In this video, Patrick McCarthy says, "I'm 100% convinced that the way Karate is practiced in Okinawa today is largely due to a reverse influence due to its development on the mainland of Japan."

How true is this?

How had Okinawan karate changed over time?  How much influence does Japanese Karate have on Okinawan Karate?  How would this influence be demonstrated if it did exist?


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## punisher73 (Jan 30, 2009)

I think he is very correct in his analysis.  Karate used to be a "family" type training and was more informal.  To promote it to the japanese they created the rank structure and more "military" type training we see and think of today.  They also introduced the sport aspect of karate and started to create drills to support this and make it for school children.

Gichin Funakoshi didn't show many grappling aspects of karate to differentiate it from Judo.  He highlighted only the punching and kicking aspects and how it was different from what the japanese already knew.


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## JWLuiza (Jan 30, 2009)

The regurgitation of Japanese changes back to Okinawa makes sense to me, and his experience seems to support this assertion. I wish I had the resources to discover it for myself!


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## terryl965 (Jan 30, 2009)

Where did he get all the information at or is it an opinion. Sorry could not get the link here at the school.


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## dancingalone (Jan 30, 2009)

I haven't had the privilege of training in Okinawa (yet), but I understand the level of karate across the world is very, very good now with the emigration of sensei from Okinawa to the US and to Europe.  You can definitely find teachers with the goods in the West, some more readily than others as they are professional karate teachers.  The problem is the issue of paying your dues until you do get fed the good stuff from them.


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## arnisador (Jan 30, 2009)

Well, the reverse influence is as much from modernity as anything else--Japan is modernizing like every other country is and it's affecting _all_ of Japan.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 30, 2009)

I've personally always wondered why the training methods of Okinawan Karate looked so much like Shotokan.  One would think that there would be more of a difference considering the emphasis on application.


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## JWLuiza (Jan 30, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> I've personally always wondered why the training methods of Okinawan Karate looked so much like Shotokan.  One would think that there would be more of a difference considering the emphasis on application.




I think it might've been a "Keeping up with the Jones" type of thing.  Especially with the back and forth of 2nd generation Japanese Karateka to Okinawa.


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## dancingalone (Jan 30, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> I've personally always wondered why the training methods of Okinawan Karate looked so much like Shotokan.  One would think that there would be more of a difference considering the emphasis on application.



Do they?  My teacher, albeit a goju guy, rarely uses line training.  Could you explain on what similarities you have observed?


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## Makalakumu (Jan 30, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Do they?  My teacher, albeit a goju guy, rarely uses line training.  Could you explain on what similarities you have observed?



I think a lot of it comes from the ippon kumite practice.  Sometimes the distances seem way too far apart, exactly as you would see in Shotokan.  I feel reluctant to comment on this because my experience is so limited.  Also, I've experienced Okinawan Karate that was so completely different then what I practiced in Shotokan, that it should have been surprising that it was related.  So, I'm wondering what Patrick McCarthy is seeing.


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## seasoned (Jan 30, 2009)

It is no different there, then it is here. Small pockets of dedicated practitioners trying to keep alive a way of life, that has perhaps over stayed its time. Thanks for the work that Mr. McCarthy is doing. :asian:


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## TimoS (Jan 31, 2009)

Checked the video and while he may have a point about the influences of japanese karate into okinawan karate, you have to remember that to him this is also a sales gimmick: basically, what he's saying that everyone else is doing it wrong and he's the only one with the authentic methods. And I must say that is just :BSmeter: It all comes down to how you train and what your instructors can teach you.

Just as an example, here's a demo of Seibukan karate a few weeks back in here in Helsinki


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 1, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Checked the video and while he may have a point about the influences of japanese karate into okinawan karate, you have to remember that to him this is also a sales gimmick: basically, what he's saying that everyone else is doing it wrong and he's the only one with the authentic methods. And I must say that is just :BSmeter: It all comes down to how you train and what your instructors can teach you.
> 
> Just as an example, here's a demo of Seibukan karate a few weeks back in here in Helsinki


Great example of true okinawa karate.  This is more of how I practice and teach Shorin Ryu I don't teach sport karate because I feel as though this video is where its at.


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## thetruth (Feb 1, 2009)

I am def not a fan of Patrick McCarthy.  When I used to train karate we had Patrick in a lot for seminars. One day we were doing a drill and a few moves just felt wrong, like they didn't belong.  I questioned my instructor who agreed and later in private asked Patrick about them and Patrick admitted that he was missing some bits from the 'ancient' drills he was teaching so he made them up.   He isn't thought of too highly in Okinawa anyway so his opinion holds no water with me.  

Interesting thought though.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## arnisador (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm a fan of his books because they're thought-provoking. That doesn't mean I always agree, but they're always interesting reading.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 1, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I'm a fan of his books because they're thought-provoking. That doesn't mean I always agree, but they're always interesting reading.




To be perfectly honest, his "translations" always feel odd to me, they seem more like interpretations then straight translations with a fair bit of his own ideas merged in.

I have no problem with authors offering interpretations of the work they are translating, given that they have done more research and understand the language it was written in it can definitely be of benefit.  But McCarthy's blur it all together...


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## elder999 (Feb 1, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> I have no problem with authors offering interpretations of the work they are translating, given that they have done more research and understand the language it was written in it can definitely be of benefit. But McCarthy's blur it all together...


 
This makes a very good point-what McCarthy does is quite unlike what say, Coleman Barks does with Rumi-being a poet himself, he renders Rumi into poetic english, and quite well. The same could be said for Giles's translations of Sun Tzu as opposed to Thomas Cleary's-while Cleary did very well with the poetry, Giles's  for years  maintained the standard for what Sun Tzu actually _meant,_ in that he had a military background in addition to his grasp of the language. In fact, he's only been surpassed in the last two decades, even though his translation is nearly a century old.

I sometimes have wondered about McCarthy's grasp of dialect and older idiom, but I'm also grateful for his work; I enjoyed his translation of _Bubishi_. Some of his observations on the current state of martial arts do leave me with bigger questions, though-but they're from his experiences, and those are experiences that I lack.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 1, 2009)

Good points above.  The culture is very important.  On the other hand, the guy has had an incredible wealth of experience.  It's not something to be taken lightly.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 1, 2009)

thetruth said:


> One day we were doing a drill and a few moves just felt wrong, like they didn't belong. I questioned my instructor who agreed and later in private asked Patrick about them and Patrick admitted that he was missing some bits from the 'ancient' drills he was teaching so he made them up.


 
I think it just goes to show that certain things ARE just lost.  In a way, we all are working form interprettations.



thetruth said:


> He isn't thought of too highly in Okinawa anyway so his opinion holds no water with me.


 
Could you share more about this?  I'd be curious to hear some more details.


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## searcher (Feb 1, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> To be perfectly honest, his "translations" always feel odd to me, they seem more like interpretations then straight translations with a fair bit of his own ideas merged in.
> 
> I have no problem with authors offering interpretations of the work they are translating, given that they have done more research and understand the language it was written in it can definitely be of benefit. But McCarthy's blur it all together...


 

I have to agree with you whole-heartedly on the not feeling right with his translations.   Andmost of his forms are not truly Okinawan, they are a washed down version that seem very similar in nature to Richard Kim and Don Warrener's version of kata.   

I respect his views on things, but I don't take what he says as Gospel.   I try to listen to people like Uezu, Dometrich, Foster, Higashi, Mattson, and other great masters that are more versed in Okinawan traditions and training methods.


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## thetruth (Feb 2, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> I think it just goes to show that certain things ARE just lost.  In a way, we all are working form interprettations.
> 
> 
> 
> Could you share more about this?  I'd be curious to hear some more details.


For starters, between the time he left Okinawa and wrote his first magazine article he magically gained 2 dan levels (from 4th to 6th I believe). This article was sent back to Okinawa.  Secondly I have been told by numerous sources (one who travels to Okinawa once a year and one who teaches in Japan and regularly travels to Okinawa plus a few others) that his masters actually asked him to translate their work into english for them.  He translated it, took it and sold it as the Bubishi.  I'm given the nature of the texts there were no copyrights on them.  Lets just say they are not very welcoming of him or friends of his.

Also if one doesn't know the interpretation one should just say so and not try and flog it off as the real deal.  Given this fact who knows if what he writes/says is real or made up.    I have probably attended 5 or 6 (maybe more, it was a while ago) McCarthy seminars and for a guy who supposedly has so much knowledge he sure repeats himself a lot.



Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## punisher73 (Feb 2, 2009)

Here is a link to his website for those that want to read more details of his approach.

http://www.koryu-uchinadi.com/Myth_Busting.htm

Here is another link to Chokyu-gata (which is actually gekisai dai ichi/ni)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XSxBgv1pUeQ&feature=channel_page 

A link in which he tells how he came about with chokyu-gata.
http://www.koryu-uchinadi.org/Aragaki_Seisan_&_Chokyu.pdf

It's an interesting theory, but no documentable proof of where the gekisai katas originated from other than the accepted story.  I'm not saying that you can't do this, but it seems to be where his material came from.  He looks at different sources and then reverse engineers it.  But, then claims that it is the "authentic/original' way of doing things.  It reminds me of "pankration" and what Arvantis did.  He looked at historical documents, but then used modern systems to recreate the ancient lost style of the greeks.  McCarthy looks like he has a good product that incorporates modern training with the older approach, I just don't think that it is all 'authentic' like he claims.


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## twendkata71 (Feb 3, 2009)

Mr. McCarthy trained with Richard Kim for several years until apparently they had a falling out or split for some reason. Then he became a student of  Hiroshi Kinjo in Japan. He lived in Japan for several years.  He traveled extensively studied, took notes, etc. I remember watching him compete in kata many years ago when I was a child and his kata then were very good.  His dan certificates are from the Dai Nippon Butokukai. It is a rare thing for a caucasian to have such high dan ranking with the Butokukai. He has done his homework, perhaps embelishing a bit on some of the history, adding a bit to some of the kata. I do enjoy many of his books. I do not hold him as the end all of karate information however.


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## Victor Smith (Feb 16, 2009)

Going back to the original statement about Okinawan karate is practiced like Japanese karate, that is a given on some levels.

Today Okinawan karate wears uniforms, uses belts, contians organizations none of which were hallmarks of pre WWII Okinawan karate.

The changes had a lot to do with the war. The efficiency of the fighting destroyed over 1/3 of the Okinawan population. Many of the seinors who might have controled the direction of karate post WWII were no longer alive. The Okinawans saw clearly the American conquerors were returning Okinawa to Japanese control in 1972, and when the Japanese organizations started lobbying in the 50's for Japanese style practices the Okinawans saw the handwriting on the wall and started adopting Japanese style practices (not to mean they changed their training to what the Japanese were doing).

Prior to the experiment of exporting Karate to Japan, karate used a non-literate form of oral transmission of thier art. Then in the 20's and 30's Funakoshi, Mabuni, Motobu, support from Nakasone and others combined to document the Okinawa arts (in small part) beginning a trend that would grow after WWII.

Then in the 50's the 2nd wave of export began training the occupying troops and allowing the Okinawan arts to spread world wide.

In 1972 when Japan regained control of Okinawa the study of karate dropped to almost non-existant. The Japanese started pouring money into the Islands and full employment (Japanese style) caused traning to drastically drop. In the 80's the Okinawans started teaching youth in numbers and as I understand it 75% of the current Okinawan karate population is youth. 

View www.OkinawaBBTV,com for a few years and get a feel for what is happening on Okinawa. They're into all the trends the rest of the world follows, including Kyokushinkai (a Japanese system) is also taught on Okinawa.

I'm not inditing anything, just suggesting Okinawa works under the same pressure the rest of world does too.

Yet there are still pure Okinawan systems, with Japanese trimmings too.

There are no simple answers for such simple questions.

I've never met Patrick McCarthy, I don't train in his system, but I have suported his reasearch, have translated a few books from the French for his purposes and contributed to his latest edition on the Bubishi.

Patrick has detractors everywhere, he also has plenty of supporters everywhere too, including Okinawa. His latest Bubishi edition goes into great detail who on Okinawa has supported his research.

No his 'translations' are not 100% pure ones. But then none of the Japanese Bubishi translations ( for example) are 100% pure ones either.

There really is no financial incentive to produce 100% pure translations for the geeks such as myself who would prefer to do so.

He correctly writes for a larger audience to share information to help them understand what he is offering.

You can like or dislike that, but that is what others have done too.

The Japanese and French works on the Bubishi do exactly the same. He isn't alone in his approach, simply because very few understand the core idea.

He has by his efforts made translations of the Bubishi, Funakoshi, Motobu, Nagamine and others available.

If you want to take issue about translations I suggest you find your own sources, learn the languages involved and show exacly how you can do it better. Having translated a small bit myself I know how difficult it is and I've discussed this with an editor in Martial Publications (not for myself but to understand what actually goes into professional publications), and the standard is that what is written is re-written into the new language for maximum sense (according to the author/editor/etc).

I cannot speak for McCarthy's sensei's meanings in what he's written or spoken, I can only offer my own impression. I suggest he has offered great value in his efforts.

BTW the Okinawan's have completed their own Encyclopedia of Okinawan Karate (English translations not on the horizon), and without doubt when it's translation becomes available (by whoever is so honnored to translate it), I expect there will be a lot of everyone's bubbles burst as the Okinawan's give their own answere (and there will be discenting opinions even on Okinawa too).

pleasantly,


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## exile (Feb 16, 2009)

Victor Smith said:


> He isn't alone in his approach, simply because very few understand the core idea.



OK, but Victorwhat _is_ the core idea you're alluding to? And _why_ do people not understand it? This is something probably anyone reading your post will want to know... don't keep us _hanging_.


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## thetruth (Feb 17, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> McCarthy looks like he has a good product



Here is where it lies.  It looks like A GOOD PRODUCT.  He sells his bunkai and information of the habitual acts of physical violence.  They're a product and he needs them to seem legit in order to sell them.  

Also he doesn't have that many followers. He works off the same principles as the Kyusho guys.  He may have 1 person in Australia, and 1 person in a few other countries so he can say he teaches all over the world when the reality is his reach is far smaller than we are led to believe.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## Victor Smith (Feb 17, 2009)

Exlie (and I've never gotten used to responding to alias'),

Pressed for time getting ready for work this morning. I'll try and answer this for you this evening.

But for  quick reading check out my blog - 
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2008/11/furthering-bubishi-section-1.html
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2008/11/furthering-bubishi-section-2.html
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2008/11/furthering-bubishi-section-3.html
http://isshin-concentration.blogspot.com/2008/11/furthering-bubishi-section-4.html


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## exile (Feb 17, 2009)

Victor Smith said:


> Exlie (and I've never gotten used to responding to alias'),
> 
> Pressed for time getting ready for work this morning. I'll try and answer this for you this evening.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Victor, and I'm very much looking forward to learning your take on that question.


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## rmclain (Feb 17, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Do they? My teacher, albeit a goju guy, rarely uses line training. Could you explain on what similarities you have observed?


 
I visited a Goju-Ryu school in Kin-cho, Okinawa a few times in November 2006. The instructor's teacher was a student of Chojun Miyagi. I used a translator for the interview as the instructor didn't speak any English. Their school used the line training arrangement. I have the instructor's name and lineage back to Chojun Miyagi in my notes, if you are interested in names.

R. McLain


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## dancingalone (Feb 17, 2009)

rmclain said:


> I visited a Goju-Ryu school in Kin-cho, Okinawa a few times in November 2006. The instructor's teacher was a student of Chojun Miyagi. I used a translator for the interview as the instructor didn't speak any English. Their school used the line training arrangement. I have the instructor's name and lineage back to Chojun Miyagi in my notes, if you are interested in names.
> 
> R. McLain



Sure, I'd be interested if only for idle curiosity.  I suppose it depends on the size of the class you are teaching.  My own teacher used more of a mentoring system where the class warmed up together, occasionally performing kihon in lines.  Most of the session however was spent broken up into pairs or sets of three with Sensei and his senior students spending time with each group making adjustments or corrections.


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## Victor Smith (Feb 17, 2009)

Exile,

Reading what I wrote "The Japanese and French works on the Bubishi do exactly the same. He isn't alone in his approach, simply because very few understand the core idea."  I can understand your question about it.

I expressed myself less clearly than I would have wished.

I wasn't talking about a secret interpretation of the Bubishi.

I was trying to refer to the fact if the book was a literal translation of one of the original Bubishi texts, very few would see it's possible placement in Okinawan karate history. It would just be an English (or French or Japanese) translation of those notes.

As I see them most of the Bubishi presentations are trying to fill in a lot of gaps, not provide a character by character analysis.

My own observation is that it is literally impossible to have a sustained discussion about the Bubishi, Many have bought it, I assume thumbed through the pages and then placed it on their bookshelf. I've tried for 10 years to open discussion and have reluctantly understood almost nobody really feels willing to do so.

I have made a few very good friends on the issue, but there  is no sustaining discussion that will come (and I've tried many times).

Either those who are seriously attempting to study and use it in their training won't discuss that openly, or nobody really does much with it, or even both of the above are possibilities too.

If you get a chance to see the new McCarthy Bubishi edition he goes into detail who he did work with about his translation, and it is a very comprehensive list. It is inaccurate to suggest he didn't do his homework.

But having translated a few books myself, I personally realize how difficult it is (even for a professional translator, and I know only a few in Martial literature as things stand.

The funny thing is this does not appear to be new. Funakoshi Ginchin incorporated specific Bubishi sections (in their original CHinese) his his first 3 books on Shotokan. Mabuni Kenwas incorporated a large section of the Bubishi in his 1934 text on Seipai kata too.

However these works are interpretated, they still remain quiet in the groups that do so.

Hope this helps,


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## exile (Feb 17, 2009)

OK, I see what you're getting at, at least a bit, Victor. 

The problem with translation is that in a sense, you have to know essentially as much about the realities of the world that the work you're translating is located in as the author him/herself, in order to capture the intentions of the original text. Great translations are works of historical anthropology where the translators have immersed themselves completely in the cultural fabric of the material they're translating.  Translation is really a kind of cultural commentary&#8212;every line involves a commitment to a particular view you have of how the author(s) saw the universe they were depicting&#8212;e.g., different views of what archaic Greek society was like will naturally give rise to radically divergent translation of the _Iliad_, for example. 

That means you have to have an independent source of information about the society in which the work was produced, if you want the translation to be faithful. And as I understand it, the amount of contemporary documentation on the particular domain that the _Bubishi_ is devoted to is... well, a closed book, so to speak. Every translation is a hypothesis about what the source text is really saying.  And the problem is, there's almost no chance of finding confirming evidence in cases like this. I suppose that's why McCarthy, and all those others you cite, can make of the text what they will....


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## Victor Smith (Feb 17, 2009)

Exile,

I believe you are correct and in that sense a great Bubishi translation is likely impossible.  And it may have been so for those older Okinawan instructors too. Especially as copies were handmade and generation after generation likely contained transcription errors.

I believe the more important quest  is if we can try and see how the Bubishi influenced Okinawan karate development. It would be interesting to find out if the new Okinawan Karate encyclopedia contains reference.

I know the 'Big Uechi book' contained Bubishi material in it. 
I've also received private information about how on group of seniors have been using it over the past 50 or so years, of course that's a contemorary time too.

It is extremely likely the source art(s) for the Bubishi have experienced the tidal flow of time and may no longer exist in that original form.

Interesting speculation.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 17, 2009)

Victor

When you say that having an extended conversation about the bubishi is impossible, are you referring to conversations about how people are incorporating the bubishi into training?  What exactly are you trying to discuss about the bubishi?

mahalo

maunukumu


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## Todd (Feb 18, 2009)

Victor Smith said:


> It would be interesting to find out if the new Okinawan Karate encyclopedia contains reference.


The index of the new Okinawa Karate Kobudo Jiten lists eight references to the Bubishi in that dictionary.


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## Victor Smith (Feb 18, 2009)

maunukumu,

Frankly I'm referring to discussions about the Bubishi in any context.

For over 10 years I've tried numerous times in numerous discussion groups to engage others to discuss the Bubishi, to no avail.

Whether about the mearning Funakoshi had to included Bubishi text in his books and it's import (or lack of) to his developing Shotkan, to discussion about why 1/2 of the Bubishi is focused on an art to heal and preserve life, to discussion about how the Bubishi may have influenced Itosu, Mabuni, Miyagi and other Okinawan Seniors arts, how any are trying to incoroporate the idea of the Bubishi's value into todays training.

It always seemed to me we've been presented with something by Funakoshi and Mabuni's efforts, that influenced McCarthy, Penland, Habsetzer and the Japanese translators to share this work.

But that's about as far as it goes.  I've always found that curious too.

I'm not suggesting anyoe should incorporate the Bubishi into their programs, it's just a non-topic to talk about.

Those commentaries I posted on my blog I also shared on numverous discussion groups I've participated on for years. No discussion was the result.

I realize we're all occupied in our own training and/or teaching, but trying to figure out what might have influenced systems development in the past ought to provide some insight to what might influence our systems devleopment in the future.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 18, 2009)

Thank you Victor.  Personally, I don't know if people know much about how it was traditionally applied anymore.  Or if they do, it's as you say, they aren't going to talk about it.  On the other hand, I am surprised that so little discussion has occurred on the topic of how it may be applied in a modern setting.  I can see a lot of ways this "book" could be useful in the practice of my karate...including the healing aspects.


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## Patrick McCarthy (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi folks,

I'd be happy to openly discuss any of these issues with you.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2011)

Fantastic! I'd love to dig into the specifics of curriculum with you. For starters, what caused the Okinawans to change their martial art so much, even among other Okinawans? Are there any extant traditional systems that are purely Okinawan? 

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk


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## Patrick McCarthy (Oct 29, 2011)

I recently posted a few articles which might be of interest to you as they discuss the historical nature surrounding the origins and subsequent development of Karate: In no special order they can be located here... 

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/3/29_Was_Siamese_Boxing_[_&#12471;&#12515;&#12512;&#25331;&#38360;]_the_original_source_of_Okinawan_Tigwa_[&#25163;&#23567;].html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/9/30_Matsuyama_Koen_[Park]_Theory.html

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/...Entries/2011/4/4_The_Ben_Ryder_Interview.html

Hope this helps. :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Oct 29, 2011)

Patrick McCarthy said:


> I recently posted a few articles which might be of interest to you as they discuss the historical nature surrounding the origins and subsequent development of Karate: In no special order they can be located here...
> 
> http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html
> 
> ...



Thanks for the reading.  I appreciate it.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 30, 2011)

Patrick McCarthy said:


> I recently posted a few articles which might be of interest to you as they discuss the historical nature surrounding the origins and subsequent development of Karate: In no special order they can be located here...
> 
> http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html
> 
> ...



Do you have any resources on what happened to the healing aspects of karate?  Why aren't those taught anymore?


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## Patrick McCarthy (Oct 30, 2011)

I think a combination of basic first aid knowledge for simple injury  management, an attending paramedic or ring-side doctor at competitions, and or simply a quick  911/000 call for medical emergencies, have played a role in the changing outcomes of the fighting arts. 

Sadly, I know of no official documents explaining the lack of interest with the holistic aspects of Karate. Yet, in spite of the absence of historical testimony, I'm confident that war, advancements in modern medicine, a shift in training outcomes and the competitive element are collectively responsible for its decline. In my 9-year study/translation of the Bubishi, it became obvious just  how important the healing aspect of the fighting arts was during that  time. I believe that clan/family-based fighting arts, whose transmissions have become part of hereditary succession, and the scant TCM-like teachings found in some Chinese traditions, are the only two streams which have systematically kept alive such practices today. 

Finally, I can't help but wonder if the modern MA's industry, seemingly dominated by under-qualified/inexperienced instructors, the American McDojo template, extreme martial arts competitions, gi/no-gi submission sports, gladiatorial cage matches, and the always improving RBSD-methods, are also responsible for why such holistic teachings, and the art in general for that matter, are destined to remain locked in the annals of time?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2011)

TimoS said:


> Checked the video and while he may have a point about the influences of japanese karate into okinawan karate, you have to remember that to him this is also a sales gimmick: basically, what he's saying that everyone else is doing it wrong and he's the only one with the authentic methods. And I must say that is just :BSmeter: It all comes down to how you train and what your instructors can teach you.
> 
> Just as an example, here's a demo of Seibukan karate a few weeks back in here in Helsinki



Thanks for the link.  I found it iteresting.  I think those folk and Hapkidoist would enjoy each other's company.


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## Patrick McCarthy (Oct 31, 2011)

Is there a question here?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 1, 2011)

Patrick McCarthy said:


> I think a combination of basic first aid knowledge for simple injury  management, an attending paramedic or ring-side doctor at competitions, and or simply a quick  911/000 call for medical emergencies, have played a role in the changing outcomes of the fighting arts.
> 
> Sadly, I know of no official documents explaining the lack of interest with the holistic aspects of Karate. Yet, in spite of the absence of historical testimony, I'm confident that war, advancements in modern medicine, a shift in training outcomes and the competitive element are collectively responsible for its decline. In my 9-year study/translation of the Bubishi, it became obvious just  how important the healing aspect of the fighting arts was during that  time. I believe that clan/family-based fighting arts, whose transmissions have become part of hereditary succession, and the scant TCM-like teachings found in some Chinese traditions, are the only two streams which have systematically kept alive such practices today.
> 
> Finally, I can't help but wonder if the modern MA's industry, seemingly dominated by under-qualified/inexperienced instructors, the American McDojo template, extreme martial arts competitions, gi/no-gi submission sports, gladiatorial cage matches, and the always improving RBSD-methods, are also responsible for why such holistic teachings, and the art in general for that matter, are destined to remain locked in the annals of time?



This is something I've thought of a lot, but haven't really had much information in order to confirm my suspicions.  At one time, karate had a very robust healing curriculum.  Now, it does not.  In America, and in many other parts of the world, this probably could draw a lot more people into the art, considering how popular alternative healing practices are becoming.  

It's also one of the reasons I started cross training in Danzan Ryu Jujutsu.  Not only does it trace roots to some very famous karate masters, this martial art has a very robust healing curriculum intertwined with its self defense techniques.  Students learn massage, acupuncture, herbology, and kiai for healing purposes.  When I compare it to the Bubishi, I'm learning a lot of the same stuff, which is probably the best I can do at this time in my life.  

That said, I had the pleasure of meeting a karate master in the Detroit area who was very knowledgeable about making various herbal mixtures for his "old bones" and other people who needed it.  Something tells me that the healing arts aren't dead in karate.  It's just hard to find.

I really respect your work, Mr. McCarthy.  Your translation of the Bubishi illustrated for me what a holistic martial art would look like and it changed my practice of karate.  I became a better student of it, because of this work.  

I hope others can crack the book with a little less ego and analyze their own practice as well.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 1, 2011)

Patrick McCarthy said:


> Is there a question here?



Mr. Goodin is a sensei that I very much respect out here in Hawaii.  He was the impetus behind the massive collection of rare karate books that was donated to the UH Manoa library, something I've also been able to learn a lot from

He wrote this article, which I thought pertained to this thread.

http://seinenkai.com/art-bunkai.html



> *Lost in Translation.*  Kata are sequences of techniques,  presumably ones the creator (or modifiers) of the kata had found to be  particularly effective.  Today we know the names of the kata and the  names of each technique and stance present in the kata.  Fukyugata Ichi  (created by Matsubayashi-Ryu founder Shoshin Nagamine in 1940), for  example, begins with a left downward block (gedan barai or gedan uke) in  a left zenkutsu dachi, followed by a right middle punch (chudan tsuki)  in a right shizentai dachi.  See: The 1940 Karate-Do Special Committee: The Fukyugata "Promotional" Kata.  Can you visualize this?
> 
> 
> _That was a trick!_  Once the movements of a kata are identified as  specific techniques, the meanings become fixed.  A "block" has a  certain meaning, as does a "punch."  A stance has a certain  configuration and weight distribution.  A dynamic process is reduced to a  series of still photographs.
> ...



This seems to describe very succinctly how Okinawan karate became Japanese karate, IMO.  What are your thoughts?


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## Patrick McCarthy (Nov 3, 2011)

I couldn't agree with you more; this holistic aspect [and several others I  can think of] could very well attract a 'different' audience to the art. I was a  lecturer at the Australian College of Natural Medicine for 7-years and can  testify to how popular TCM and alternative healing practices have become. I have no doubt that there are many Karate enthusiasts  [instructors and students alike] who are very knowledgeable about alternative  healing practices, possibly even OMD-accredited; however, like you, I think they  are far from the mainstream.


 BTW, I know of Danzan Ryu Jujutsu illustrious heritage as my former jujutsu  instructor was Prof Wally Jay [Small Circle] who studied directly under Okazaki  Soke. I greatly respect it and those who are dedicated to its study.


Thank you for the compliment on my  Bubishi-related work; it was a work of joy [in spite of the head-banging  difficulties it continually presented]. Even to this day, I continue to get  something extra each time I read it. Like you, I too became a better student  because of it. 

BTW, having trained with  Prof Shinzato in Okinawa nearly thirty years ago, and being the translator of  Nagamine Shoshin's book [Tales of Okinawa's Greatest Masters], along with being  a colleague of Charles Goodin's, I cannot argue with your sources


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## Black Belt Jedi (Nov 5, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I think he is very correct in his analysis.  Karate used to be a "family" type training and was more informal.  To promote it to the japanese they created the rank structure and more "military" type training we see and think of today.  They also introduced the sport aspect of karate and started to create drills to support this and make it for school children.
> 
> Gichin Funakoshi didn't show many grappling aspects of karate to differentiate it from Judo.  He highlighted only the punching and kicking aspects and how it was different from what the japanese already knew.



Yeah, you are right on. To further add, it was in the early 1900's, Itosu decided to introduce Karate into Elementary Schools in Okinawa, but he didn't want show school kids the deadly techniques so he created the Pinan/Heian katas and didn't teach any bunkai to them therefore the Habitual Acts of Physical Violence was being thrown out the window.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Nov 5, 2011)

I ended up digging through this article a read a few years back called A Brief History of Kata by Iain Abernethy.

http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-kata


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## Patrick McCarthy (Nov 6, 2011)

You might also be interested in these ...

http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html

and one called, "Myth Busting," located on my website www.koryu-uchinadi.com located under "RESOURCES,"  then click on "INTERESTING READING" and then click on "MYTH BUSTING."


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 21, 2012)

Unfortunately, I think McCarthy Sensei is right about the "reverse influence". The main point, to me anyway, is that it's just easier for the Okinawan Sensei to follow a mass-instruction pattern in large classes, rather than the classical personal-attention model.


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## chinto (Feb 22, 2012)

To a larger extent then you may think, it is a function of the particular dojo you train at and the Sensei who teaches there.  Some are more militaristic then others.


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## TimoS (Feb 22, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> it's just easier for the Okinawan Sensei to follow a mass-instruction pattern in large classes, rather than the classical personal-attention model.


True. On the other hand, I don't think that the Okinawan sensei often teach really large classes, except during seminars. Last summer I attended a seminar by Zenpo Shimabukuro sensei and during one class all we really did was one particular combination, because he wanted to check, however briefly, each and everyone of us doing it and if I remember correctly, there were more than 200 people there


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 25, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I ended up digging through this article a read a few years back called A Brief History of Kata by Iain Abernethy.
> 
> http://www.iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-kata





Patrick McCarthy said:


> You might also be interested in these ...
> 
> http://web.me.com/patrick_mccarthy/Personal_Web_Site/Blog/Entries/2011/4/4_Dai_Nippon_Butokukai.html
> 
> and one called, "Myth Busting," located on my website www.koryu-uchinadi.com located under "RESOURCES,"  then click on "INTERESTING READING" and then click on "MYTH BUSTING."



I am SO damn sorry - I meant to thank the two members above for linking those two excellent articles!


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