# Kata and Forms...?



## Milt G. (Jul 26, 2009)

Hello,

Would like to get an idea of the importance that is placed on kata and forms by the various practitioners, and systems, represented here.

On another forum the subject was brought up.  Looking for more input.

Kata/Forms:

1) Necessary?
2) Very useful?
3) Somewhat useful?
4) Slightly useful?
5) Totally useless?

If so, or not, why???

Trying to find the "general" consensus.

Thanks, in advance for your assistance and input!

Milt G.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 26, 2009)

This question seems to be asked a lot.  It appears that opinions vary.

I would say 2) Very useful.

But that's just me.


----------



## Milt G. (Jul 26, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This question seems to be asked a lot. It appears that opinions vary.
> 
> I would say 2) Very useful.
> 
> But that's just me.


 
Hello,
Thanks for your reply...
I default to #1, myself.

I think that kata, other then basics, is the single most helpful learning tool.

But that is just me. 

I am sure that the "MMA-ers" will feel differently about it.

Thanks, again...
Milt G.


----------



## Haze (Jul 26, 2009)

All depends on the art. I study Goju Ryu, kata is a necessary aspect of the art. Kata is the way technique is handed down from teacher to student. It is also the way one can build endurance and balance. Teaches breathing and when to be soft (flow with your invisible attacker) and when to be hard (focus all power against your invisible man) Teaches use of energy and weight by pulling, pushing, sinking, rising, spiraling/turning

#1 for me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,necessary,,,,,,,,,,,in my art.


----------



## Milt G. (Jul 26, 2009)

Haze said:


> All depends on the art. I study Goju Ryu, kata is a necessary aspect of the art. Kata is the way technique is handed down from teacher to student. It is also the way one can build endurance and balance. Teaches breathing and when to be soft (flow with your invisible attacker) and when to be hard (focus all power against your invisible man) Teaches use of energy and weight by pulling, pushing, sinking, rising, spiraling/turning
> 
> #1 for me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,necessary,,,,,,,,,,,in my art.


 
Hello,
I fully agree.

Thanks for your reply!
Milt G.


----------



## matt.m (Jul 27, 2009)

I think it is important in Judo.  Really Ju No Kata and Gatame No Kata are essential for practice.  Kata, at least designed for Judo is very practical.


----------



## Grenadier (Jul 27, 2009)

Kata is one of the best ways to execute the fundamental techniques that you have learned over the years.  Furthermore, with repeated practice, the techniques should be getting better.  

The better someone's technique is, the better they're going to be at *all* aspects of Karate, including kumite.  

As someone gets better in kumite, his techniques will continue to get better, which will then better his kata.  

To me, the kata and kumite are both tied to the fundamental techniques, and that improving one area will help the other, through the bettering of one's fundamentals.  

For example, someone who practices kata Gojushiho Dai, is going to develop a better sense of balance, along with increased leg strength, from manuvering in short cat stance for much of the time.  With this increase in strength and balance, this can make him a better fighter in the kumite aspect.  

Each kata has something to offer, and to me, are excellent tools to use in conjunction with your other tools.


----------



## Andrew Green (Jul 27, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> 1) Necessary?
> 2) Very useful?
> 3) Somewhat useful?
> 4) Slightly useful?
> 5) Totally useless?



All of the above.  Just depends on what you want to get out of your training.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 27, 2009)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> Thanks for your reply...
> I default to #1, myself.
> 
> ...


 
Why drag 'MMAers' into it? As a matter of fact this one feels kata is hugely inportant so does this quite a few MMA fighters I know the most recent being Neil Grove (UFC) who still trains karate and completed the 30 man kumite for his grading. Iain Abernethy a leading world proponent of kata Bunkai is a great fan of MMA and teaches moves from kata to MMA fighters. Please don't turn this into another flogging a dead horse MMA v TMA thread.


----------



## Milt G. (Jul 27, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Why drag 'MMAers' into it? As a matter of fact this one feels kata is hugely inportant so does this quite a few MMA fighters I know the most recent being Neil Grove (UFC) who still trains karate and completed the 30 man kumite for his grading. Iain Abernethy a leading world proponent of kata Bunkai is a great fan of MMA and teaches moves from kata to MMA fighters. Please don't turn this into another flogging a dead horse MMA v TMA thread.


 
Hello,
No intent to drag any specific group into anything.  Not what I am about.

I mentioned the "MMA" as that is the latest "system", it seems.
I could have mentioned the JKD-ers, Boxers, Wrestlers and many of the Filipino arts as well.  Most do not utilize traditional kata much, if at all.

I think it is great that you, and others you know utilize the traditional kata.  You are in the minority for those types of arts, overall, though.

I applaud your, and anyone's use of kata as a training tool!

Thank you for your reply.
Milt G.


----------



## pgsmith (Jul 30, 2009)

Well, since this is the Japanese Martial Arts forum, and most Japanese martial arts are transmitted through the use of kata, I think that your response is going to be overwhelmingly in favor of kata. I practice Japanese sword arts, and *all* of the koryu (classic) arts utilize kata as their main form of transmission.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 30, 2009)

pgsmith said:


> Well, since this is the Japanese Martial Arts forum, and most Japanese martial arts are transmitted through the use of kata, I think that your response is going to be overwhelmingly in favor of kata. I practice Japanese sword arts, and *all* of the koryu (classic) arts utilize kata as their main form of transmission.


 

I think one post in the general section would have been sufficient to garner enough replies, as the poster above points out, in this section it's a given that we see the point of kata!


----------



## rrowell (Apr 14, 2011)

Kata is critical. It acts as a skeleton to build your understanding. Kata is a distillation of thinking, a platform to expand from.

A couple of articles you may be interested in:

http://budotheory.ca/articles/64-kata-the-model-and-the-shape

http://budotheory.ca/articles/98-exploring-kata-horizons

http://budotheory.ca/compare-kata

I guess you now know where I stand on the subject.


----------



## K-man (Apr 14, 2011)

rrowell said:


> Kata is critical. It acts as a skeleton to build your understanding. Kata is a distillation of thinking, a platform to expand from.
> 
> A couple of articles you may be interested in:
> 
> ...


 Me too!  Great articles.     :asian:


----------



## ATACX GYM (Apr 14, 2011)

I think that kata are deeply misunderstood on too many levels and brings GROWING BENEFITS as you practice and age.It is a brilliant collection of movements which preserve the physical techniques of an art,is literally a much overlooked form of yoga,becomes even more beautiful and more refined if you combine a taste for and appreciation of unbounded beauty,unbounded appreciation of form function and knowledge (the reasons for and circumstances surrounding the creation of a kata),and utterly practical functional real world fighting ability.

Shadowboxing is fast kata. Shadow grappling is ground kata.Flow drills,isolated drills,etc. are sports specific,result oriented kata.Fighting is spontaneous combat kata.Kata is a wonderful tool that we must cherish and preserve imho.I do kata all the time.Try shadowstriking with weapons and empty handed nonstop covering every range of primary combat including rescue and escape.Do that for 3 ten minute rounds.Preface that by doing whatever favorite kata you wish and tack on that same kata at the end.Now tell me that it DIDN'T help you.Yeah,I thought it did.Lol.

Yes,as you prbably know already...kata are very valuable training tools and are as versatile and effective as the martial artist with the requisite refinement, creativity,understanding,faith will and knowledge can fashion them to be.


----------



## chinto (Jun 17, 2011)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Would like to get an idea of the importance that is placed on kata and forms by the various practitioners, and systems, represented here.
> 
> ...



Absolutely NECESSARY!   Kata is where the system is passed down. the doctrine and tactics, foot work, and other techniques are passed down !!   
Does this mean that kata is the only tool?  NO! but it does mean that its the most important.  With out the Katas you have no system. any one can put together a few techniques on their own, but that is not a system.. kata is how the system was formalized and is passed down to the next generation.


----------



## tayl0124 (Aug 23, 2011)

I believe that Kata is absolutely necessary!!  I think in it's simplest form it teaches you how to string your basics together.  Imagine only knowing basics and trying to defend yourself.  Yes you will be able to block and punch, but kata teaches you movement, how to shift your weight, and to use your hips to generate power.  Another benefit not discussed it to keep you and other students moving in a direction.  How many systems would have survived this long if you only had basics??


----------



## lma (Sep 2, 2011)

A big fat *1


*Its so much more than punching the air. Im writing a blog on this just now. 

I have always learned from kata to think outside the box. A little contraversal considering its a set pastern . Its down to the bunkai its good to get taught the meaning of the moves and so on but its even better to learn from the moves them selves. For a black belt test I had to come up with 3 different bunkais for Heian Nidan. 

It teaches a whole lot of things but this is what makes it so essential for *ME*


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Sep 6, 2011)

Milt G. said:


> Kata/Forms:
> 
> 1) Necessary?
> 2) Very useful?
> ...



As long as the correct Bunkai is know and trained, I would say #2 very useful.  I don't say 'necessary' since an art can be successfully trained without the use of kata.


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 6, 2011)

I wouldnt Grade it on Usefullness, but rather, Necessity. Or Lack, thereof.

One could debate For or Against Kata, but ultimately, the Combinations and Block>Counters, and everything else Kata Teach, can be learnt Seperately.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 9, 2011)

I find kata to be very important as learning self-defense because kata gives you a good work out when performing it full out and gives you good benefits. Kata training also gives you body memory and muscle memory along with timing, coordination, balance and pace. Kata training is used to record moves from the Acts of Physical Violence. Being able to learn various analysis of the moves can make sense of way you doing this move and that move. IMO, it is more convenient for a student to learn various analysis/applications from random templates as much as possible before learning the first kata. That's what I do when I teach a new student Karate.


----------



## Cyriacus (Sep 9, 2011)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I find kata to be very important as learning self-defense because kata gives you a good work out when performing it full out and gives you good benefits. Kata training also gives you body memory and muscle memory along with timing, coordination, balance and pace. Kata training is used to record moves from the Acts of Physical Violence. Being able to learn various analysis of the moves can make sense of way you doing this move and that move. IMO, it is more convenient for a student to learn various analysis/applications from random templates as much as possible before learning the first kata. That's what I do when I teach a new student Karate.


I Agree.
Just to Lightly Expand, Kata, like anything of the sort, are Compartmentalised Functionality. As such, Aspects of all Kata should work in Step Sparring; Perhaps better showing their Capability (Or, more Obviously, rather)


----------



## lma (Oct 19, 2011)

There is kumite without kata. There is no kata without kihon . From what I have seen of martial arts that learn "patterns" and not kata it is not essential. They use at as a quick way to practice in the house and yes there are so many other ways to do this , shadow box and so on. Kata though and especially how we get taught helps you do more than learn muscle memory, fitness , movement and other physical things. The mental side is strong for two reasons particular automatic reactions. So I have "imagined" some one kicking me from the side a million times from the side in kion kata. This has override my flight or fight (ur first naturual reaction) reactions to a down block and punch. Yes I could have maybe learned it in sparring but its impractical and slow going if you practicing against multiple attackers. Also with there being many bunkai for each it gets you thinking outside the box .


----------



## kungfu penguin (Oct 21, 2011)

i think mma practitioners dont understand kata.  when they do those various bag drills over and over thousands of times arent they doing kata striking, evading, footwork, blocking, breathing, balance  sounds like kata to me.  also groundfighters wether practicing armbar triangle kimura or any other of the 100s of things they do hundreds of hours to be able to perform it in a smoker or tournament. wrestlers too, thye do double legs single legs clinch  firemans toss cross faces, etc... 1000s of time to perfect it  again  sounds like kata to me


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 22, 2011)

kungfu penguin said:


> i think mma practitioners dont understand kata. when they do those various bag drills over and over thousands of times arent they doing kata striking, evading, footwork, blocking, breathing, balance sounds like kata to me. also groundfighters wether practicing armbar triangle kimura or any other of the 100s of things they do hundreds of hours to be able to perform it in a smoker or tournament. wrestlers too, thye do double legs single legs clinch firemans toss cross faces, etc... 1000s of time to perfect it again sounds like kata to me



A lot of MMA do understand kata, many come from a traditional background like myself, some of us do MMA and TMA so please don't bring that 'oh MMA people don't understand stuff' here, there's just as many TMA people who don't understand kata as they don't do the Bunkai for it.
Why does MMA get held up when someone wants to point out ignorance, MMA people are martial artists too.
What on earth is a 'smoker'?


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Nov 30, 2011)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Would like to get an idea of the importance that is placed on kata and forms by the various practitioners, and systems, represented here.
> 
> ...



Here is my input;

If one looks at forms from a block/punch/kick perspective then forms are only slightly useful and are often relegated to the 'do a form, get the next colored belt'.  It becomes a class filler.

If however, one looks at forms from the perspective of each form holding information beyond b/p/k such as throws, chokes, balance displacement etc, then each form now opens up an entirely new world of information.  Many 'founding father' of Karate only studied or taught a very few kata.  Uechi Sensei once stated that to truly know Karate, one had only to study Seisan kata.  

Less is often more from the right perspective.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2011)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Here is my input;
> 
> If one looks at forms from a block/punch/kick perspective then forms are only slightly useful and are often relegated to the 'do a form, get the next colored belt'. It becomes a class filler.
> 
> ...



I've often heard that said about Naihanchi as well, 'the perfect kata', that it contains everything you need to defend yourself.


----------



## seasoned (Nov 30, 2011)

Many systems have many kata. From a personal preference, once you fine the right kata for you, and your body type, that kata, becomes *your* "favorite kata". From a Sensei perspective, their mission is to learn all kata within their system, pass them all down to their students along with full knowledge of bunkai within each kata. As the student becomes advanced it is the job of the Sensei to direct this student toward a kata that best fits that individuals needs and body type, while in turn introducing that student to *their* "favorite kata". This is the way I was taught, and it is the way I teach.............


----------



## WC_lun (Dec 1, 2011)

Form is like any other tool used to train martial arts.  If the training tool is used properly then it is an important part of training, though not the most important part.  If used improperly, then it is worse than useless and can be thrown out.

If you want to know if form is being used correctly to train, are the principles being taught in your form apparent in your heavy sparring?  If not, then the form training is not being applied and therefore a waste of time and you should concentrate elsewhere.


----------



## chinto (Mar 7, 2012)

I was trained that in the Okinawan systems of karate at least, and in the 'classical kata's', as opposed to the so called tournament kata that some have come up with for flash and such, there are at least 5 hidden techniques for every single move in the kata.

whether you are talking about tamari type systems like Shobayashi or Shuri systems like Matsumura Seito, you could spend a year of every night for 2 hours working on say Chinto kata finding everything hidden in there and still have more to learn from just that one kata.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 7, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> Well, since this is the Japanese Martial Arts forum, and most Japanese martial arts are transmitted through the use of kata, I think that your response is going to be overwhelmingly in favor of kata. I practice Japanese sword arts, and *all* of the koryu (classic) arts utilize kata as their main form of transmission.



Well I train in Tang Soo Do Tae Kwon Do and I think forms are important for ones training.


----------



## Kinghercules (Mar 7, 2012)

For me forms help you with your trainin and show your lineage.
I was always told that fighting and forms go hand in hand.  How you do your forms is how you fight.
Some forms are for long rang fightin, close in fightin, balance, power, conditioning & speed.


----------



## 72ronin (Mar 7, 2012)

#1.

An absolute must in my opinion, they provide a solid foundation to work from.


----------



## Jason Striker II (Mar 7, 2012)

As several members have remarked, it very much depends 1) on the particular MA, and 2) what you want to get out of that art.

If you are practicing any form of Okinawan or Japanese Karate, my answer would be that Kata is *vital*.

Another point no one has mentioned: Kata you can do your whole life; I have been in classical Karate for 42 years, so I have some experience here. In many other arts people simply drop out of them because beyond competition and drills of various types (partner or with equipment) there is nothing else. Kata is always doable.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Mar 7, 2012)

Kata is the foundation that you build from.  Without kata you areimply a fighter ( and there is nothing wrong with just being a fighter) but you have missed some important training if you want to be a complet martial person.  
Kata not only helps one learn proper movement but there is a mental side to kata also.
There is also much in some kata that one learns from experence that is not shown when one first learns these forms. Yes, you may learn the same lessons without kata but then again you may not.


----------



## FabianosKarate (Oct 23, 2012)

I say #2. We take a LOT of examples from our katas and have extremely practical uses for them.


----------



## enthusiast (Apr 19, 2013)

When I was in taekwondo, I have always thought that forms are very boring and never gave any time studying it, except when in the dojo(I was young back then). But when you are in an MMA gym, all you do is condition, do mitts, punch bags, roll, etc. I found this routine very unsatisfying and being the person that I am, I wanted to know about history, forms, proper execution etc. At this point, this was the point where I wanted to find a school where they still practice the forms, bowing, and other rituals, I said to myself that any martial art will do. Now that I am in Karate, I find that forms are a huge part of the discipline. I realized that martial arts isn't only about fighting but it is also about conditioning the mind and forming habits. And as many people have said before, it is where we can practice technique, balance, fundamentals, etc.

So I say 1) Necessary


----------



## CTope (May 20, 2017)

Milt G. said:


> Hello,
> 
> Would like to get an idea of the importance that is placed on kata and forms by the various practitioners, and systems, represented here.
> 
> ...



Very necessary.  They prepare you for fighting and competition. Repetitive practice of basic or advanced katas gets students used to block and encountering. They also give students different combos to use instead of the same one over and over. Your opponent will catch on to your techniques if you throw the same moves during a fight.


----------



## Paul_D (May 21, 2017)

CTope said:


> Very necessary.  They prepare you for fighting and competition. Repetitive practice of basic or advanced katas gets students used to block and encountering. They also give students different combos to use instead of the same one over and over. Your opponent will catch on to your techniques if you throw the same moves during a fight.


Depends on the art.  None of this is true for karate kata. 

Karate Kata is designed for self defence from non consensual criminal violence, not fighting. Not for use against trained martial artist who will "catch on" to your moves during a fight, and there are no blocks.


----------



## Tez3 (May 21, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Depends on the art.  None of this is true for karate kata.
> 
> Karate Kata is designed for self defence from non consensual criminal violence, not fighting. Not for use against trained martial artist who will "catch on" to your moves during a fight, and there are no blocks.



This absolutely.



CTope said:


> Repetitive practice of basic or advanced katas gets students used to block and encountering



As Paul has already said, not in karate. I'm not sure how you can get used to blocking etc when you are practising on your own.


----------



## JP3 (May 21, 2017)

Milt,

  In what I've done which comes out of a so-called "traditional" background, e.g. Taekwondo, Hapkido, Judo, & Aikido  (not so much the Muay Thai which I'll get to later), kata were/are important teaching tools.

For us, when you are learning kata correctly, you are learning principles of movement (both singly and joined, as in when someone is "attached to you... some call it bunkai).

A very simplistic, surface-level explanation is that it is the same as learning to write. The first thing you do is find out how to hold the writing instrument (i.e. how to stand), how to properly apply the utensil to the surface (i.e. how to move), then you are taught how to make the characters of the alphabet (i.e. the individual techniques that make up the kata), and once you are capable of writing a sentence in block letter form (i.e. able to perform simple kata with some precision) then you are introduced to cursive, flowing handwriting (i.e. introduced to some sort of free sparring exercise, in a mostly controlled setting).

Keep in mind, in the typical educational environment, creative writing (i.e. really "doing your martial art") begins when the student has at least some nominal competence in cursive handwriting, because of its ability to ... flow.

To me, that's why Kata exist. Well, on the surface, anyway.  There are other reasons, which make themselves known to the practitioner after many lears of living with the kta, as it become an old friend who occasionally hands out new nuggets of good info.


----------



## Tez3 (May 21, 2017)

Is there a reason all these threads are being dug up from the thread cemetery?


----------



## Paul_D (May 21, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Is there a reason all these threads are being dug up from the thread cemetery?


Noobs


----------

