# Wing Chun Dummy?



## Nightingale (Sep 11, 2003)

Wing chun dummy-

what is it and how is it used??


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## pknox (Sep 11, 2003)

It's used in JKD to help build up trapping skills, and also to toughen the forarms and hands a bit.  As Bruce Lee originally practiced Wing Chun, I wouldn't be surprised if they use it similarly.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 11, 2003)

Description snaged from a company that makes em...ad-verts removed. 

===

The Muk Yang Jong is one training device characteristic of Wing Chun Kung Fu in particular, and several other Kung Fu styles from South China in general. The Muk Yang Jong, or Wooden Man, is used to develope power, sensitivity, and proper angle and distance of technique.

Traditionally, the Muk Yang Jong is crafted from a heavy hardwood and mounted in the ground. A more usual mount is a wall or standing rack with the Wooden Dummy supported on wooden slats. The slats allow the dummy to absorb more power without damaging the practitioner. 

The classic Wooden Dummy consists of two arms set at about shoulder height, a third arm underneath, and a leg which extends outward with a bend that approximates the placement of the human knee. The upper arms are angled away from the trunk, emphasising proper angle of attack and force application. If force or explosive power is applied without the correct vector or angle of application, the Wooden Dummy will bounce the practioner off balance.

Though commonly thought to be a device to aid conditioning, one of the primary uses of the Muk Yang Jong is to train "Chi Jong" or sticking technique. As one executes the Wooden Dummy form, a martial artist learns to stick and adhere, and at higher levels, to flow with the technique and issue explosive power without the need to break contact or pull back. Throughout the form, both hands are used simultaneously in complex patters that draw on the techniques of Chi Sau or Sticking Hands.

Techniques practiced on the Wooden Dummy also include both hand and leg techniques. Kicks, traps and proper footwork are all practiced throughout the Wooden Dummy form. The Great Lion does offer the traditional wooden leg, but also offers as standard equipment a steel leg capable of withstanding the most punishing of workouts.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 11, 2003)

Also, Paul Vunuk (sp?) has a great video on its use in the JKD style.  Was interesting in that he would work on the dummy, then show how it translated to use with a person, and covered a few of the differences in approach between JKD and traditional Wing Chun.


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## pknox (Sep 11, 2003)

Yes.  From what I've heard, that is one of the areas where Vunak really shines -- contrasting the "JKD" and "Wing Chun" approaches to various situations.  I'll have to check out that video - sounds pretty cool.


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## pvwingchun (Sep 12, 2003)

There are several videos of Wing Chun Masters as well as students on the internet performing various sections of the dummy.  If you want to see how it should be done properly search them out.  The dummy teaches you proper footwork and positioning as well as other things.  No offense but I have seen the dummy performed very poorly by those who have tried to adapt it to there styles and from a Wing Chun point of view it just doesn't work.


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## Pat (Sep 12, 2003)

You need a good teacher to show you how to hit the dummy properly in person. It usually isn't the first exercise or form you would learn. And remember to use Jow.  :drinkbeer


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## pvwingchun (Sep 12, 2003)

A good teacher is a must.  We don't teach students the dummy until they are almost finished with the Siu Lim Tao somewhere around 9 months to a year.  And then they are really only introduced to it.  Various sections are learned to compliment training throughout the Chum Kiu and Biu Gee forms.  

FYI the dummy does hit back from time to time.


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 20, 2003)

Anyone beating on a wooden dummy with force enough to cause injury _doesn't understand the use of the wooden dummy in Wing Chun_.  The dummy is used, as has previously been stated, to train _angles_ and _structure_ for techniques.  That is its primary purpose.  It can also be used for a certain amount of conditioning of the arms and hands, but it's not a punching bag and it's not an "iron palm" board.

Be particularly wary of anyone who'll tell you about how regularly he breaks the arms off the dummy.  He doesn't know what he's doing.


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## Pat (Sep 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *
> Be particularly wary of anyone who'll tell you about how regularly he breaks the arms off the dummy.  He doesn't know what he's doing. *



I musy say that a person who can break the arms off of a mook with a hit and without hurting him/her self must know what he/she is doing.

:drinkbeer


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 21, 2003)

If you think that, you don't understand what the purpose of the wooden dummy is in Wing Chun.

_Anyone_ can break the arms off a wooden dummy if they try.  If you do, it means you fail to grasp the use of the equipment.  It's NOT a punching bag.


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## leehoicheun (Sep 23, 2003)

My 90 year old grandmother can break the arms off a wooden dummy...... my 4 year old son can break the arms off a wooden dummy. does this mean they know what they are doing?

Pat, be VERY careful in making rediculous statements like that.... especially to Wing Chun practitioners from ANY lineage. You come off sounding VERY ignorant. The wooden dummy is not a tool you BASH or abuse. 

Below I have attached a description of the legend behind the Muk Yan Jong (wooden dummy) and it's purpose taken from the Wing Chun Kwoon web site. Just one of many sites and instructors who know the true nature of the dummy....... I also highly advise reading the book "Anatomy of Wing Chun" by Philip Holder pages 41 to 43. And I quote: *"Anyone using the Muk Jong to toughen their limbs is in direct violation of several of Wing Chun concepts and is functioning outside of the Wing Chun system."* 

Pat, read this.

_"Legend has it that in the days of the Shaolin Temple, there was a tunnel filled with 108 wooden dummies, and the monks who completed their training were required to pass through this tunnel as one of their final exams. Each one of these dummies performed a certain technique, which the "graduate" monks had to neutralize on their way out of the temple. 
When the Shaolin Temple was destroyed, Ng Mui, the Buddhist nun credited with founding Wing Chun Kung Fu, escaped. In deference to her training at the Shaolin Temple, she incorporated a training set using a single Wooden Dummy. This dummy set contains 108 combat techniques, each one supposedly to represent the 108 dummies that were in the Shaolin Temple. 

Whether or not these legends are true, it is true that the Wooden Dummy set in traditional Wing Chun is an excellent way to develop the skills and co-ordination needed to become a proficient fighter. 

The Wooden Dummy is used to develop timing, arm and leg co-ordination, proper use and application of force, distance, judgement, footwork and to teach practitioners how to flow smoothly from technique to technique. It is also used to toughen the limbs, although this is not the primary function of the dummy. 

Wing Chun Kung Fu is a system that does not rely on strength and brute force; rather it stresses development of skill and co-ordination to have the practitioner deflect and redirect an opponent's attack, while simultaneously countering with his/her own attack. Deflection and redirection is achieved with correct positioning, requiring good footwork as well as co-ordination of the arms and legs, so that they work together to redirect an oncoming attack yet leave the practitioner in a position to counter at the same time. 

All fighting techniques in Wing Chun come from the techniques in the Wooden Dummy. Dummy training allows the Wing Chun practitioner a way to correctly train the body in performing techniques. The amount of power one uses at certain times of a technique, as well as the timing of delivering such techniques can be drilled repeatedly on the dummy. Speed is improved because one can drill a series of movements over and over, creating the muscle memories needed to perform techniques automatically. Accuracy is refined because the practitioner learns how to correctly position his/her body in relation to the dummy (i.e. opponent) so that both arms can be used simultaneously. Footwork and mobility are enhanced, as the practitioner is forced to move from one side of the dummy to the other, moving in and out as well as laterally. Although working with a "static" partner, the Wing Chun practitioner learns how to combine footwork patterns smoothly with arm movements that deflect and attack, developing skills that are mandatory for successful free sparring. There are 124 Wing Chun techniques, which are grouped into eight sections. Each of the first three sections is composed of 20 movements; the fourth and fifth sections each has 15 movements; the sixth and seventh sections each is made up of 10 movements; while the last section has 14 movements. Yip Man thought that the seventh and eight sections were too dangerous to be taught publicly. Therefore, he deleted the seventh and eight sections. There are only 116 movements of the Wing Chun dummy taught now. 

Regardless of the style one practises, one always hears that to be a successful fighter there are certain qualities and attributes that one must acquire. Speed, power, timing and accuracy are always cited as requisites to reach your peak in martial arts. The Wooden Dummy of the Wing Chun system provides the practitioner a valuable tool to achieve those goals. "_


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## Pat (Sep 23, 2003)

Well, let's see if I can clear up the misunderstanding. But, I am still going to try to keep the 2 discussions separate. I didn't mean to imply that a person who can break the arms off a wooden dummy knows what he is doing in the art of Wing Chun, but I can see how that might be a natural conclusion, especially since this is a Wing Chun thread, but I still maintain that a person who can do this 'gotta know somethin.' By the way, I don't know of as many people who can actually do that as the 2 of you do. Come to think of it I don't know of anyone who can do that, or of anyone that wants to, for that matter.
You say that my statement is ridiculous, fair enough that's your 
opinion.
My opinion is that these statements are just as ridiculous.


> My 90 year old grandmother can break the arms off a wooden dummy...... my 4 year old son can break the arms off a wooden dummy.



I did read your whole post, I've read that before from other sources, and I totally agree with it.:drinkbeer


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 23, 2003)

> but I still maintain that a person who can do this 'gotta know somethin.'



Yes, such a person does know something.  He or she knows exactly how weak are the joints on a well-made wooden dummy.



> By the way, I don't know of as many people who can actually do that as the 2 of you do. Come to think of it I don't know of anyone who can do that, or of anyone that wants to, for that matter.



Have you ever even seen a wooden dummy in real life?  Do you have any idea how a traditional dummy is constructed?  It's not like breaking a tree in half, Pat.  The joints are very weak and the arms are designed so the arm can be replaced if it is broken by _accident_.


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## Pat (Sep 23, 2003)

OK, I see where the misunderstanding is coming from. I have never seen a wooden dummy with weak arms. My apologies. 
:drinkbeer


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 23, 2003)

To what extent and in what styles have you trained with wooden dummies, Pat?


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 23, 2003)

1 instructor I had briefly complained that his newer students would power the dummy, rather than work technique.  Often times, they broke the arms, or did damage to themselves.

My understanding is that its a tool to work speed, flow and acuracy, not power.


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## Phil Elmore (Sep 23, 2003)

Precisely.  Proper _structure_ is important above all.


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## leehoicheun (Sep 23, 2003)

pat..... the ignorant don't even know when they are being made fun of. In this case, I mentioned my grandmother and 2 year old son to make a point. Just about ANYONE can break the arms off of wooden dummies. But it was not made for that. Oh and by the way, Wooden dummies constructed of material that is too thick are not made to the specifications of authentic wooden dummies. typically.... even on poorly constructed dummies...... the wood that inserts into the body of the dummy is usually only about 2 to 3 inches square..... no thicker then most grown mens wrists. If you hit it hard enough, it will crack or even break. 

but anyway, argueing with someone who obviously doesn't train in Wing Chun and if you do, obviously trains by videos and books alone and does not have a certified teacher guiding him..... is pointless and a waste of time.

good luck....... seems like you'll need it.


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## Pat (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sharp Phil _
> *To what extent and in what styles have you trained with wooden dummies, Pat? *



Kai Sai Yim Wing Chung is the name of the style that we train. It is 1 curriculum in our system. Our system was founded by Christopher G. Casey, who unfortunately is no longer with us. 
Personally I have been training within this system for over 10 years. I learned the mook about 6 or 7 years ago.  The arms on the mook set up in my basement cannot be broken off by a mere mortal. Nor do we try to break them off. Believe me you would need a sledgehammer to break them off, I sware, and it is a legitimate mook. I know some of you won't believe what I just posted, that is why I hesitate to post these things.
:drinkbeer


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 23, 2003)

Pat,
  When things are different from what we 'know', we tend to react or respond depending on various things.  One of the reasons why this forum exists is so that we can all learn from each other.

Share your thoughts, experiences and ideas.  Some will welcome, others reject, most sit in the middle, munch popcorn and place bets on the nekid posturing (or is that posteriors?) of the emperors.

Its all good, except for the rock throwing.... heh


Learned Debate is always good.  

All that said, I have a few questions for ya...which to keep this thread focused on the mook, I'll ask in a seperate thread.

To keep this on topic...
What use does your system of Wing Chun put the mook to? 


:asian:


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## leehoicheun (Sep 23, 2003)

I did a search and found his styles site and as I thought....... it is a relatively new system. here is the site link http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/kskf/copy_of_index.html

after reading the history of the style I have found that they do indeed hit the wooden dummy. and I quote 





> powerful projection energy developed through impact hitting on the mook jong (wooden dummy).


 This would lead me to believe that they must make the arms thicker and stronger to accommodate their heavier hitting. Even on the regular traditional dummies you can hit pretty hard but if you break the arms you've gone too far. I have seen styles of Wing Chun that use the dummy for conditioning the arms. Augustine Fong for example has a five strike conditioning drill he performs on the dummy....... but only uses minimal power.... just like iron palm training to slowly toughen the limbs. 

There are principles that grandmaster Ip (Yip) Man himself laid out before all of his students. they are as followed:

Guard the Center 
Face the Point of Contact 
Economy of Movement
Touch Reflexes: Chi Sao
Watch the Leading Elbow 
Use Linear Striking Action 
Avoid Fighting Force Against Force 
Train to Use Two Arms at the Same Time
Uses Pressure Points to Make Striking Techniques More Effective 
Uses the Same Meridian Pressure Points as Treatment of Sports Injuries 

in every style of Wing Chun I have investigated I have never come across a style that endorses beating on the wooden dummy. Each style consistently emphasizes using the dummy NOT for conditioning, but rather, for use in learning the proper angles. In the case of this new interpretation or should I say modification of Wing Chun called Kai Sai Yim Wing Chun, (created in 1981) they break away from the principles laid out by Ip Man. Is this good or bad? Only time will tell. 

The main thing is this....... this is not a good representation of Wing Chun in general. When a person asks a question about WING CHUN they should be given a WING CHUN answer. Pat.... in the future I would be up-front about the fact that you are training in a modern and modified version of Wing Chun. That way traditional practitioners won't think you're crazy.

now.... about Grandmaster Lo Man Kam.... the teacher of Kai Sai. They DO NOT teach to beat on the dummy. They are a traditional WING CHUN school teaching the traditional WING CHUN system that was handed down to him from Great Grandmaster Ip Man. Sifu Duncan Leung is Lo Man Kam's younger kung fu brother. Duncan Leung is also a person I myself have learned a GREAT DEAL from.... and never once during Wooden Dummy training did he ever once teach to hit the dummy hard.

But anyway, like I said before, good luck in your modern version of Wing Chun but remember......... without root, there is no tree. In other words, to better understand your modern system, it is best to trace it to its roots.


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## Pat (Sep 24, 2003)

> Pat.... in the future I would be up-front about the fact that you are training in a modern and modified version of Wing Chun. That way traditional practitioners won't think you're crazy.



You are quite right, I did not know that our methods were that different from every one else's.
We do follow those principles, they are worded a bit differently though. 
:drinkbeer


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## leehoicheun (Sep 24, 2003)

> We do follow those principles, they are worded a bit differently though.


that is not exactly true. By beating on the dummy you are fighting force with force. Fighting force with force means muscling into a persons attacks or defense instead of flowing around them. By excessively smashing the limbs of a wooden dummy you are training yourself to use strength instead of positioning and grace. 

Think about the legends of Wing Chun, Ng Moi and Yim Wing Chun were female. Yim Wing Chun had to learn how to defend herself against a stronger, faster and better trained man quickly. The principle of not fighting force with force that was taught to her by Ng Moi was part of what defeated the bully. 

We fight the way we train, if we hit the wooden dummy hard then we will be conditioned (wired) to do the same against a human adversary. If that person is much stronger then your hard hits your arms will fail and your defense destroyed. 

In the Ip Chun school of Wing Chun (great grandmaster Ip Mans son) They talk about accuracy, energy and relaxation. And I quote: *"And you must use the right amount of energy. Too much and you will get beaten, too little and you will also get beaten."*
also:  *"Relaxation is also very important. If any part of your body is tense and making you rigid, your enemy can use your energy to fight back against you or to make you tired."* 

so to sumerize: The way you are using the dummy goes against the principle of not fighting force with force.

Pat.... I have come across many new versions of Wing Chun. 99% of the time they go against principle in order to become "new". Wing Chun is a complete combat system that has been proven in battle then and even now. Changing the system is not a bad thing.... as long as it follows the principles. If the principles are broken in any way, shape or form it is no longer Wing Chun.


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## Pat (Sep 25, 2003)

OK. I can tell you are very passionate about Wing Chun.
And I sincerely wish you good luck also.
:drinkbeer


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