# relaxing and muscle tension in chi sau



## paddyJKD (Oct 20, 2010)

I've been learning wing chun for around 2 years on and off. one thing i am tired of hearing is you're too tense, your arms are stiff, relax...

Sifu often stops me from chi sau and says "see this, this relaxed, you do this." How?

fair enough... thing is i know my form is quite good cos i get quite easy hits while doing chi sau on a lot of students in different ranks, however i can feel that i am still really stiff and no matter how much i try to relax or losen up my muscles, sifu always come back "too stiff". I know i would be a lot better and more effective if i could or knew how to loosen up.

One theory i have is that i have too many trigger points in my muscles. i'm a personal trainer and do a lot of intense resistance exercise which over time has made my muscles shorten and built constant tension in groups of muscle fibers (trigger points). i have had massages once or twice before and been told that i need a lot more intense massage (1 a week for around 10 weeks) before my muscles will be relieved of excess tension especially my shoulders.

Anyway what i'm getting at is can someone give me some useful thoughts or ideas about how to relax properly or even their theories of relaxation in wing chun and chi sau and whether or not trigger point therapy will help?

Thanks,
Paddy


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## yak sao (Oct 20, 2010)

The answer is easy....the doing is the hard part.

The founders of WC have already laid the groundwork for us, all we have to do is follow the map.

First of all. SNT, and lots of it. RELAX while doing it, ie turn off the antagonistic muscles and use just enough force to make the movement.
And then keep doing it...you will always be able to do it better, no matter how many years you train it.

As for chi sao, I would recommend doing poon sau until it feels like your arms are ready to fall off, and then keep going. I'm talking at least 45 minutes to an hour of nothing but poon sau. This will cause you to turn off the muscles not needed for chi sau and use only the ones required.

Another tip from my old si-fu was to not try to be soft when you initially start poon sau, rather kind of "muscle" it so that your muscles get tired of fighting the force and eventually relax into the proper structure (that you developed in your SNT BTW)


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## paddyJKD (Oct 21, 2010)

only problem is even when i chamber my arms in SNT, i can't even hold my elbow against my side because of tension and inflexibility in my chest, my shoulders, rhomboids and lats compensate to hold the elbow as far in and the fist as far back as possible so relaxing my shoulders becomes almost impossible. Will keep practicing though


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2010)

paddyJKD said:


> only problem is even when i chamber my arms in SNT, i can't even hold my elbow against my side because of tension and inflexibility in my chest, my shoulders, rhomboids and lats compensate to hold the elbow as far in and the fist as far back as possible so relaxing my shoulders becomes almost impossible. Will keep practicing though


 
Damn you must be big , you must walk like your carrying a bucket of water in each hand. 

Nothing but daylight between your elbows and those slabs of prime beef you call lats.

Yak Sao has already given you top shelf advice so listen to him.
Have you looked into Pavel Tsatsouline's Beyond Stretching dvd and book , I was doing some of the exercises for a while and I felt a bit more flexible.


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## paddyJKD (Oct 21, 2010)

not massive man, just got inflexible and tight chest and shoulder (and all other upper body) muscles muscles like i said. It happens from weight training every day. i use paul ziachik's stretching method and also Thomas kirtz method. pnf stretching as much as possible but joint range of motion plays a big part in the ability to increase range in the muscle. sometimes stretching my shoulders and chest i get to my greatest range before feeling the stretch. also get muscle impingement in my shoulder joint which means that some muscles in my rotator cuff are over tightened or not moving activating properly. 

Most Muscle tension does not come from having big muscles, it comes from tightened muscles due to overuse


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## matsu (Oct 21, 2010)

ok mate i hear ya!!
i,m a big guy. been bodybuilding for nearly 20 yrs off and on and the advice given to me by my sifu who will not accept my "excuses" about muscle/tension and the stuff you just said lol....

you are trying to pull your elbow in with your pecs-this is inevitable as you have spent time constantly contracting cos its a showpeice muscle and everyone loves to bench lol!!
so now try to drive your elbows forward and in useing your lats only... sounds simple..... nada nope no way hose! its a cramping painful as hell way but eventually you(and i ) will be able to get that dammmmed elbow in.concentrate on your lats and it will drop your shoulders naturally.


and listen to yakman and esp mr mook!!!
their advice is the same as my sifu and i would think yours!
when we are forced to roll hard and fast for  30min of the lesson, by the time we are working on something my body is so tired its relaxed and i can actually chi sau better(well better for me)

matsu


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## mograph (Oct 21, 2010)

Here's a thought: you're probably using too few muscles with too much effort per muscle. If you can relax, distribute the load to a greater portion of your body and try to build a unified connection through your feet to the floor, you might release some of the tension. I find that the intention of distribution usually flows away from the limb in question and towards the core, then through the legs to the floor, leading to an overall feeling of being filled with water, air, oil or sponginess .... if anything.

I believe that the action (punching, whatever) should feel almost effortless, to the point where we say "is that all?" .... because we've distributed the effort so widely through the body, that our usual methods (senses, proprioception) that determine the level of muscular effort think we're slacking off. To put it another way, if I can pinpoint the muscle that's making the effort, I'm not well-distributed yet.

Personally, I'm changing my strength training routine to better reflect this intention of distribution: fewer (if any) isolation exercises and more compound exercises that better reflect what I intend to do in MA.

Hope that helps ...


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 21, 2010)

Guys, 

A good way of training your relaxation on a practical level (on your own) is a concept called stacking. Bear with me, as it does sound odd, but it does work
All you do is get some items (cans of fizzy drink are ideal) and practice placing them loosely in cupboards around other objects. The idea of this training is not to ouch any other items in this cupboard. After a while you should start to feel a bit more of a natural flow with your arms

The way you grip in wing chun is no more pressure than holding a can of drink

I know a lot of chunners who still hold tension. In some ways they are hard to get around, but they do struggle on certain things. 2 years is not a long time to be training and I think a lot of students who have trained for that long will have similar problems

Dont panic!!


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## matsu (Oct 21, 2010)

mograph.... i would say more likely the wrong few muscles.
most weight trainers have a tendency to go too heavy on every exercise they do and use the complimentary muscles to assist in the lift.
for example the bench press
if you hunch up your shoulders and traps they actually do 45% of the work so your not improving the pectoral strength as much as you think or would like but your lifts get stronger.
 if you drop your shoulders down and bring your knees up like a crunch position you will be able to utilise the pecs predominately with the traps shoulders and tris assisting!!
thats why i think isolation exercises are valid, they allow you to feel individual muscles and learn how to correctly contract them.
BUT if someone is used to being "strong" in compound lifts they are generally too tense so they can use the assist muscles to help them lift bigger.
hope that makes sense.
i can easily isolate all of muscle groups when i,m weight training or dare i say posing in the mirror at the gym as i train..... 
but i have difficulty relaxing muscles and isolating the ones i need when i,m learning something new... like wing chun 
and it gets worse as i struggle or i,m going too fast or i,m under pressure from my opponent and i would hazard a guess that the OP is doing just that.
just my tuppence..
matsu


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## mook jong man (Oct 21, 2010)

paddyJKD said:


> not massive man, just got inflexible and tight chest and shoulder (and all other upper body) muscles muscles like i said. It happens from weight training every day. i use paul ziachik's stretching method and also Thomas kirtz method. pnf stretching as much as possible but joint range of motion plays a big part in the ability to increase range in the muscle. sometimes stretching my shoulders and chest i get to my greatest range before feeling the stretch. also get muscle impingement in my shoulder joint which means that some muscles in my rotator cuff are over tightened or not moving activating properly.
> 
> Most Muscle tension does not come from having big muscles, it comes from tightened muscles due to overuse


 
I think you should maybe do a few hundred  chain punches in the air every night , maybe even punch continuously for 10 minutes at a medium pace.

I know you already do a crap load of exercise , and more exercise when you get home is probably the last thing you want to do , but I believe this will help you.

It acts in a similar way to doing chi sau for an extended period of time , all the muscles  become exhausted and your just left with the ones needed to perform the movement.

Because you'll be continuously  punching for a while you can monitor the tension in your shoulders and biceps and really concentrate on them , try to punch without any effort and get to a stage of feeling a relaxed heaviness in your arms.

It'll be pretty good for your stance too.


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## geezer (Oct 21, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> I think you should maybe do a few hundred  chain punches in the air every night , maybe even punch continuously for 10 minutes at a medium pace... It acts in a similar way to doing chi sau for an extended period of time , all the muscles  become exhausted and your just left with the ones needed to perform the movement.
> 
> Because you'll be continuously  punching for a while you can monitor the tension in your shoulders and biceps and really concentrate on them , try to punch without any effort and get to a stage of feeling a relaxed heaviness in your arms....



That sounds like excellent advice. I've been focusing on a similar approach. I lead my little group through a couple hundred chain punches then have them pause and mentally isolate the muscles that feel tense or tired, and shake them out. Then we continue for another couple hundred trying not to use an ounce of wasted energy, and then pause again and repeat the same "diagnostic", Then we go all the way till we're done and reach that "heavy tiredness" state.  By taking those few moments to pause and focus on eliminating the tension that gets in the way we all do a lot better. It's sort of like checking to make sure your parking brake is off and you'll get better milage. Same for poon sau.

Now as far as stiffness goes, I can really relate to the OP, and I'm not "big"... just physically stiff jointed and tight muscled. Always have been. Lately I've decided to bite the bullet and lay off the weights for a while. For next couple of months it's going to be strictly bodyweight training like pull-ups, push-ups dips and elastic band work, stretching, and a lot more forms and poon-sau. It's tough because I don't want to lose the modest amount of muscle mass I have struggled to maintain, but I'm at a point were I really want to break through to a higher level in my chi-sau. At 55, trying to stay buff forever is a losing proposition, but getting good at chi-sau is actually possible. Give me another twenty years and you'll all see? Right, Joy?


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## Domino (Oct 22, 2010)

What MJM and Yak said.
Wouldnt advise lifting heavy weights personally as that can affect your sensitivity and can only advise you to touch hands more often with sifu, ask or else you wont get.
Poon sau, slower chi sau and core strength work outs for me at the moment.


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## hpclub1000 (Oct 25, 2010)

Section 2 and 3 of Sil Lim Tao teaches us to relax after executing a technique. if you find yourself practising the form and holding on to tension then address this asap as you don't want to be drilling in bad habits that will resurrect during your chi sau.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2010)

paddyJKD said:


> I've been learning wing chun for around 2 years on and off. one thing i am tired of hearing is you're too tense, your arms are stiff, relax...
> 
> Sifu often stops me from chi sau and says "see this, this relaxed, you do this." How?
> 
> ...


 
Just some thoughts

A) Relaxation takes time
B) Don't try so hard
.....i. forced relaxation is not relaxation
C) Try relaxing when you are NOT doing Wing Chun
.....i. Just stand or sit normally and try to relax the areas that are tight 
.....ii. Try standing in Wuji
.....iii. Try training Zhan Zhuang
.....iv. Try some stretching exercises


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## mograph (Oct 25, 2010)

"Word", as the young people say. 

If we are trying to change our bodies, paradigms or ways of doing things, we need to make those changes outside of class as well: on the subway, lining up at the bank, washing dishes at the sink ....


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