# The importance and maybe secrets of the Dan-tian



## Morphius (Mar 25, 2022)

Hello, the article below discusses the dan-tian/abdomen (pp. 28-34) in a historical and practical context, it also gives a translation of the a very old text called the Embryo Breathing Classic. Do you agree wit this article?



			https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359231046_A_Brief_Overview_Comparing_the_Core_Theories_Cultivation_Practices_and_the_Interrelationships_of_Buddhism_Daoism_Brahmanism_and_Yoga


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## O'Malley (Mar 25, 2022)

Welcome to MartialTalk. 

The article is primarily a comparison of different Asian religions and the part you cited is related to martial practice only in a very tangential way. Hence, although dantian is a major part of my own art, I unfortunately cannot comment on the article.


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## Morphius (Mar 25, 2022)

O'Malley said:


> Welcome to MartialTalk.
> 
> The article is primarily a comparison of different Asian religions and the part you cited is related to martial practice only in a very tangential way. Hence, although dantian is a major part of my own art, I unfortunately cannot comment on the article.


The bhandas are mentioned to be similar to Taiji body posture adjustments did you see that?

Also, the paper mentions that the Dan-tian was originally a medical concept that later shifted and became much more like a cakra, the paper mentions the exact chakra too. What do you think?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2022)

Start with I am not an expert on any of this, I know more about Taoism that Buddhism. But with that said

I did not and will not read this entire thing, I skimmed it, so forgive me if I missed something. I realize you are cherry picking from Taoism to support what you say, but there is a lot more to Taoism than what you are using

Also, understand, unless you have a trained Chinese translator, who is specializing in the Daodejing, translating a version of the Daodejing for you, it is difficult to base much on any translation because they can vary from translator to translator

Example

Daodejing Chapter 19 may not be mentioning self, it may be saying Selfishness. They are not the same thing

Taoism existed before Buddhism arrived, it was not developed in response to Buddhism. It was developed off of what was allegedly taught by Lao Tzu, assuming he existed. Buddhism arrived in the first century CE. Forgetting Lao Tzu since he may or may not have existed, Chuang Tzu existed 4th century BC

as bhandas being similar to Taiji body posture adjustments. I disagree, but maybe you can explain in more detail as you think the are


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## Morphius (Mar 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Start with I am not an expert on any of this, I know more about Taoism that Buddhism. But with that said
> 
> I did not and will not read this entire thing, I skimmed it, so forgive me if I missed something. I realize you are cherry picking from Taoism to support what you say, but there is a lot more to Taoism than what you are using
> 
> ...


The person who wrote that Daoist religion was developed in response to the arrival of Buddhism was Victor Mair. He is the worlds number 1 leading Sinologist. I think us plebeians, need to be very careful to make unsubstantiated claims to what we want or wish Daoism to be. It’s probably not to good to deeply discuss a paper that one has only very briefly skimmed read because it’s too easy to miss what an author is actually saying.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> Hello, the article below discusses the dan-tian/abdomen (pp. 28-34) in a historical and practical context, it also gives a translation of the a very old text called the Embryo Breathing Classic. Do you agree wit this article?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359231046_A_Brief_Overview_Comparing_the_Core_Theories_Cultivation_Practices_and_the_Interrelationships_of_Buddhism_Daoism_Brahmanism_and_Yoga


There are three seas of qi. The center of gravity, the crimson court, and the third eye.

These three roughly correspond to the Triple Burner.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> The person who wrote that Daoist religion was developed in response to the arrival of Buddhism was Victor Mair. He is the worlds number 1 leading Sinologist. I think us plebeians, need to be very careful to make unsubstantiated claims to what we want or wish Daoism to be. It’s probably not to good to deeply discuss a paper that one has only very briefly skimmed read because it’s too easy to miss what an author is actually saying.


Then why did you ask?  Are you the author? 

When did Dr. Mair say that?


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## Morphius (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are three seas of qi. The center of gravity, the crimson court, and the third eye.
> 
> These three roughly correspond to the Triple Burner.


Oily Dragon. I’m a Chinese medicine practitioner. Normally the San jiao is not seen as something related to qi in general theory. It is generally seen as closely related to the water pathways and specially used as a diagnostic tool used in the Treaty on Warm Disease. Technically speaking the Sea of Qi is actually an acupuncture point in the belly.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> Oily Dragon. I’m a Chinese medicine practitioner. Normally the San jiao is not seen as something related to qi in general theory. It is generally seen as closely related to the water pathways and specially used as a diagnostic tool used in the Treaty on Warm Disease. Technically speaking the Sea of Qi is actually an acupuncture point in the belly.


No it's not.

Try again.  You can start with the Triple Burner points, specific fingers, and then work your way up to Iron Thread.  I'm here all weekend.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> The person who wrote that Daoist religion was developed in response to the arrival of Buddhism was Victor Mair. He is the worlds number 1 leading Sinologist. I think us plebeians, need to be very careful to make unsubstantiated claims to what we want or wish Daoism to be. It’s probably not to good to deeply discuss a paper that one has only very briefly skimmed read because it’s too easy to miss what an author is actually saying.



First, I do find being called a Plebian offensive, although I will go with you did not mean it to be

Now, except for the historical fact as to when Chuang Tzu (4th century BC) lived and when Buddhism arrived (1st century CE). Buddhism arriving much later...nothing to do with what I want anything to be, I work in historical facts that is all. Therefor how was Taoism developed in Response to Buddhism.  Taoism is an indigenous religion of China. Per Chinese historians on the topic of Buddhism coming to China it is the reverse, Buddhism was influenced by Taoism and therefore became Chan which then went to Japan as Zen. Also per Chinese historians Taoism was influenced by Buddhism as well, but it was still there prior to Buddhism arrival

Also I still maintain, and it has happened many times when translating Chinese, Chapter 19 is not self, but selfishness. Would not be the first time Chinese was mistranslated and taken as fact. See the term Kung Fu

And why do you feel the bhandas are similar to Taiji body posture adjustments.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> First, I do find being called a Plebian offensive, although I will go with you did not mean it to be
> 
> Now, except for the historical fact as to when Chuang Tzu (4th century BC) lived and when Buddhism arrived (1st century CE). Buddhism arriving much later...nothing to do with what I want anything to be, I work in historical facts that is all. Therefor how was Taoism developed in Response to Buddhism.  Taoism is an indigenous religion of China. Per Chinese historians on the topic of Buddhism coming to China it is the reverse, Buddhism was influenced by Taoism and therefore became Chan which then went to Japan as Zen. Also per Chinese historians Taoism was influenced by Buddhism as well, but it was still there prior to Buddhism arrival
> 
> ...


Buddhism was in China a lot earlier than the 1st century AD.

All of Asia, really.  How could it not be.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Buddhism was in China a lot earlier than the 1st century AD.
> 
> All of Asia, really.  How could it not be.


Like I said Chuang Tzu, considered a Taoist, lived during the 4th century BC


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Like I said Chuang Tzu, considered a Taoist, lived during the 4th century BC


You know how to find your lower Dan Tien?

Place two fingers three inches below your navel, and blow.


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## Morphius (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Try again.  You can start with the Triple Burner points, specific fingers, and then work your way up to Iron Thread.  I'm here all weekend.


Seems like you are following some obscure and weird system- I’d be careful. 


Oily Dragon said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Try again.  You can start with the Triple Burner points, specific fingers, and then work your way up to Iron Thread.  I'm here all weekend.


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## Morphius (Mar 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> First, I do find being called a Plebian offensive, although I will go with you did not mean it to be
> 
> Now, except for the historical fact as to when Chuang Tzu (4th century BC) lived and when Buddhism arrived (1st century CE). Buddhism arriving much later...nothing to do with what I want anything to be, I work in historical facts that is all. Therefor how was Taoism developed in Response to Buddhism.  Taoism is an indigenous religion of China. Per Chinese historians on the topic of Buddhism coming to China it is the reverse, Buddhism was influenced by Taoism and therefore became Chan which then went to Japan as Zen. Also per Chinese historians Taoism was influenced by Buddhism as well, but it was still there prior to Buddhism arrival
> 
> ...


Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.


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## O'Malley (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> The bhandas are mentioned to be similar to Taiji body posture adjustments did you see that?
> 
> Also, the paper mentions that the Dan-tian was originally a medical concept that later shifted and became much more like a cakra, the paper mentions the exact chakra too. What do you think?


There is a line mentioning a similarity but not more. Again, the link to martial practice is so superficial that it's difficult to discuss it in a meaningful way.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 25, 2022)

A


Morphius said:


> Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.


You are coming in pretty hot here, are you a martial artist?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.



I know what plebeian means, thank you. And noticed you get condescending when questioned, "royalty" really. And many more make major mistakes translating traditional Chinese because of their understanding of the current simplified form. My wife has corrected this for several people who brought translations to her. She is well trained in classical Chinese characters. As well as Traditional Chinese Medicine

So Sima Qian (145 - 86BC) was politically motivated, ok.

To say Taoism came into being because of Buddhism's arrival is flat out wrong. There is no doubt of that. Zhuangzi  (Chuang Tzu) lived during the 4th century BC and Buddhism shows up in the 1st century CE. Also Sima Qian refers to Zhuangzi as well as Laozi in Sima Qian's History, which is from the Han Dynasty (206 BCE to 220 CE)

So Taoist philosophy existed a long time prior to the arrival of Buddhism. However you can make a case for organized Taoism, as in the form of Taoist Sects appearing after the arrival of Buddhism. The first recorded Taoist Sect was the Tianshi (celestial masters) which appears in the 2nd century CE

But to say Buddhism is what caused the creation of Taoism is flat out wrong

Heck the earliest know Dao De Jing is from around 300 BCE and then the silk scrolls show up around 200BCE. All long before Buddhism

and you have still not answered why you feel there is a similarity between the bhandas and taijiquan.



​


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> Seems like you are following some obscure and weird system- I’d be careful.


Interesting!  You posted a thread about the lower Dan Tien, asked for comments, and then told me you were a Chinese medicine practicioner.

After you claimed to not understand that are actually 3 Dan Tien, and you think the triple burner meridian and accupoints are obscure and weird?  That's the really weird of this conversatuon (for me).  "Not related to qi"?  Yes of course it is.

None of this is obscure, and should be known to any TCM afficianado.  Are you in need of serious instructuon?


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Morphius said:


> Plebeian means commoner. Victor Mair is a world leading Professor. Are you a professor or do you see yourself as royalty? Many mainland Chinese historians are known worldwide to misinterpret history as they have a bias towards a certain political agenda. That’s why in the academic community many are not taken seriously according to some professors I know. You are wrong about your selfish translation. Many people make the same mistake as you and use modern mandarin to translate an ancient Chinese word. In terms of what you are arguing, you seem to miss the point that there is dao jia and dao jiao. The latter came in response to the arrival of Buddhism. Not the former.


Wrong again, sir.  On every point you made.

Anti Chinese bigotry, really dude?


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Heck the earliest know Dao De Jing is from around 300 BCE and then the silk scrolls show up around 200BCE. All long before Buddhism
> 
> and you have still not answered why you feel there is a similarity between the bhandas and taijiquan


This guy is confused but let's keep things factual (and as far as the "Chinese historians lie" junk, lets let the moderators deal with that...no waste time).

Buddhism and Taoism are about as old as each other both around 500BC or so.  Lao Tzu and Siddhartha Gautama are both from around that century.

Buddhist legends in China predate the 2nd century AD, and the first Buddhist temple in China, the 白馬寺, was built around 70 BC.

Shaolin Si wouldn't be built for several hundred more years, and that was probably where Buddhism and Taoism in China truly began to ferment.  There are only a few contemporary peers in that arena.

Oh I almost forgot!  There are 3 Dan Tien in TCM, and 12 meridians, and one of them is 手少阳三焦经, and it's finger is .... Anybody?


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## Buka (Mar 25, 2022)

The hell with having a second cup of coffee, I'm making popcorn!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Wrong again, sir.  On every point you made.
> 
> Anti Chinese bigotry, really dude?


Actually, he said mainland Chinese. So Taiwanese or other islanders may not be included in the group he named...this is somewhat of a tell.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This guy is confused but let's keep things factual (and as far as the "Chinese historians lie" junk, lets let the moderators deal with that...no waste time).
> 
> Buddhism and Taoism are about as old as each other both around 500BC or so.  Lao Tzu and Siddhartha Gautama are both from around that century.
> 
> ...


Lol!🤣


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 25, 2022)

Buka said:


> The hell with having a second cup of coffee, I'm making popcorn!


It’s getting good! I’m learning something in the process, so I’m all in!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 25, 2022)

Buka said:


> The hell with having a second cup of coffee, I'm making popcorn!



Get a beer too while your at it...and bring some for me


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Actually, he said mainland Chinese. So Taiwanese or other islanders may not be included in the group he named...this is somewhat of a tell.


Careful, I'm into weird and obscure systems.  Oh hell, it's Friday why not.

Here's the system I'm currently training.  This video sums up the mystery of all three Dan Tiens, all 12 meridians, all 12 bridges.  Only a couple animals and elements though.  If you want to know what those are, we'll have to save it for later (some of them are even in Wing Chun!) .   I'm cooking and baking at the moment, and that kung fu takes priority in my little weird and obscure world.  Working out the Iron Thread is for the morning and afternoon.  Never right before bed, either.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Careful, I'm into weird and obscure systems.  Oh hell, it's Friday why not.
> 
> Here's the system I'm currently training.  This video sums up the mystery of all three Dan Tiens, all 12 meridians, all 12 bridges.  Only a couple animals and elements though.  If you want to know what those are, we'll have to save it for later (some of them are even in Wing Chun!) .   I'm cooking and baking at the moment, and that kung fu takes priority in my little weird and obscure world.  Working out the Iron Thread is for the morning and afternoon.  Never right before bed, either.


Very entertaining video!  This style/form seems to exhibit the elements on which the Okinawan kata, _sanchin, _is based on.  (The name perhaps derived from _sa'am chien_.) Higaonna Kanryo likely brought this form (_sanchin_) back with him from his years spent in China.  Miyagi further modified it and it remains a definitive kata of Gojuryu.  And, yes, doing a form such as this can be dangerous and should be done full effort only by one in top internal condition.  I still do it at age 70, but only at about 80% effort.  Even then, I sometimes get a little dizzy.  It's very challenging when done properly.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 25, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Very entertaining video!  This style/form seems to exhibit the elements on which the Okinawan kata, _sanchin, _is based on.  (The name perhaps derived from _sa'am chien_.) Higaonna Kanryo likely brought this form (_sanchin_) back with him from his years spent in China.  Miyagi further modified it and it remains a definitive kata of Gojuryu.  And, yes, doing a form such as this can be dangerous and should be done full effort only by one in top internal condition.  I still do it at age 70, but only at about 80% effort.  Even then, I sometimes get a little dizzy.  It's very challenging when done properly.


It's like boiling this cabbage.  First, I had to freeze it for a week.

Only THEN, when the time came to make halupke, was it ready for boiling, coring, peeling, packing, folding, basting, and baking.

As I boil my cabbage I'm still trying to figure out how the Triple Warmer isn't related to Qi.  Struggling.  The problem may lie on my pineal gland.


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## Buka (Mar 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Get a beer too while your at it...and bring some for me


Always one on ice for you, my brother. Hope you don't mind Rolling Rock, that's all there is.


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## Steve (Mar 25, 2022)

Buka said:


> The hell with having a second cup of coffee, I'm making popcorn!


It’s like watching a French art film.  I don’t get most of it, but what I do understand is interesting as heck.


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## Buka (Mar 26, 2022)

Steve said:


> It’s like watching a French art film.  I don’t get most of it, but what I do understand is interesting as heck.


It's interesting how that works. I find it fascinating that a lot of what I'm exposed to, and what I enjoy immensely, I don't really understand when I try to put it into words.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2022)

Buka said:


> It's interesting how that works. I find it fascinating that a lot of what I'm exposed to, and what I enjoy immensely, I don't really understand when I try to put it into words.


Ineffable.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 27, 2022)

A fresh, selfish opinion.  









						Why One Neuroscientist Started Blasting His Core
					

An anatomical understanding of how movement controls the body’s stress response system.




					getpocket.com


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## mograph (Mar 28, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You know how to find your lower Dan Tien?
> 
> Place two fingers three inches below your navel, and blow.


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## clfsean (Mar 28, 2022)

Hey @Morphius ... kinda curious about your gangbustering here with what appears to be a pretty directed & loaded agenda. What gives?


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## Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers (Mar 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Buddhism was in China a lot earlier than the 1st century AD.
> 
> All of Asia, really.  How could it not be.



Citations?


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## Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers (Mar 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There are three seas of qi. The center of gravity, the crimson court, and the third eye.
> 
> These three roughly correspond to the Triple Burner.


I was wondering how long it would take for someone to point this out. Thank you.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 29, 2022)

Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers said:


> Citations?


白马寺, 68 AD.  When you think about how long it takes to decide to, and build a Buddhist temple...didn't happen overnight.  The reason of the post 100AD association between Buddhist writing and Chinese thought is because it takes a few hundred years before monks start getting creative and writing down new material.

There's a whole proto-Buddhist period in Chinese culture that predates Christ.  It's laid out in old stone foundations and Chinese texts.


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## MartialArtist1967 (Mar 29, 2022)

Been reading this entire threads and amused me to find Oily Dragon been saying it all along about 12 meridians, 3 dantians, etc. There are several authors who wrote about qi/chi in the lower dantian to cultivate (or meditate, which is not exactly like yoga type). Mantak Chia, Livia Kohn, Fabrigio Pregadio, Eva Wong, David Clippinger, DB Smith, Wu Jyh Cherng, Mimi Kuo-Deemer, etc. I can go on and on when one finding to cultivate your lower dantian that you can find in their books. More importantly, find Daoist teacher/priest as s/he will tell you in correct way to do it. Again, I like how Oily Dragon described in this thread really does know what he's talking about. 

Note: I do have several ebooks that I can upload if anyone wants to read about it. I have two or three EPUB and several others in PDF.


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## MartialArtist1967 (Mar 29, 2022)

Morphius said:


> Hello, the article below discusses the dan-tian/abdomen (pp. 28-34) in a historical and practical context, it also gives a translation of the a very old text called the Embryo Breathing Classic. Do you agree wit this article?
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/359231046_A_Brief_Overview_Comparing_the_Core_Theories_Cultivation_Practices_and_the_Interrelationships_of_Buddhism_Daoism_Brahmanism_and_Yoga


Basically to where you got this link from is the scholar who studied in Chinese religions and focused on Cultivation. Need to have a talk with the true Wudang teacher or Daoist who can explain fully to you. The link you provided is only based on the scholar's study in few pages which is not enough to explain fully. As I mentioned from my previous comment that there are several authors out there who had experienced with dantians/dan tians through cultivation.


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## mograph (Mar 29, 2022)

Hmm ... that section is what they call a "literature review;" basically "here's what the texts say." In terms of the Chinese tradition, I didn't see anything in those few pages that you couldn't find in a qigong text from say, YMAA.

While reading the ancient texts can be instructive, there's no substitute for direct experience in this context. As MartialArtist1967 wrote, it would be a good idea to seek out authors who have direct experience.


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## O'Malley (Mar 30, 2022)

I don't know about the religious stuff (don't know the goal of cultivation, nor how one can check progress), but if we're talking about physical conditioning for dantian/chi development as in traditional Chinese and Japanese martial arts, then trying to learn about it from ancient texts is like trying to learn English by reading metro tickets.


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## Oily Dragon (Mar 30, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Very entertaining video!  This style/form seems to exhibit the elements on which the Okinawan kata, _sanchin, _is based on.  (The name perhaps derived from _sa'am chien_.) Higaonna Kanryo likely brought this form (_sanchin_) back with him from his years spent in China.  Miyagi further modified it and it remains a definitive kata of Gojuryu.  And, yes, doing a form such as this can be dangerous and should be done full effort only by one in top internal condition.  I still do it at age 70, but only at about 80% effort.  Even then, I sometimes get a little dizzy.  It's very challenging when done properly.


There is no combat in the Iron Wire.  There are some Three Battles elements, but ultimately the Iron Wire is a thread of peace.  I was recently asked to put together a thread on this style, I'm still thinking about it.

The Lam Sai Wing video is a cartoon, based on motion capture.

This is a real person doing a legitimate expression of the traditional form.

His dan tien is exploding.  That's far too yang.  But you can't really blame him, that's a really yang location.


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## O'Malley (Mar 31, 2022)

I know that form. I learnt it during a trip to Calabria where an old man (probably sensing that I was a martial artist) invited me to taste the local chili peppers. Far too yang indeed.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Mar 31, 2022)

I


Oily Dragon said:


> There is no combat in the Iron Wire.  There are some Three Battles elements, but ultimately the Iron Wire is a thread of peace.  I was recently asked to put together a thread on this style, I'm still thinking about it.
> 
> The Lam Sai Wing video is a cartoon, based on motion capture.
> 
> ...


 I’m still waiting…


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