# The Misguided Layman's Dream of "The Fight"



## Rumy73 (Dec 31, 2013)

Let's ask the burning question: Why do so many dream of "the fight?" Part of  martial arts, sadly, is about men wanting to prove something in a violent encounter. Say you  "succeed" in a fight, what have you proven?  Of course, self defense is core to most MA; however, good self defense is about avoiding dangerous situations or deescalation. Not enough time is spent talking about and training in those very relevant tactics; and instead, a lot of "nonsense" is bantered about whether this MMA move is good, or that BJJ lock is useless, or this Karate kick will work in a "fight." The dream of the "fight" is wasted time, as most folks are not going to have violent encounters. (Of course, if one is in law enforcement, the military or some kind of security work, this may be a different matter entirely -- and that really is a different subject.) Now I can already anticipate the chorus of retorts that will scream: "in order to be prepared for it, one must train for it."  Great, what exactly is the "it"? Violent crime, like a strong arm robbery, general comes without warning. One will be surprised and often it is over before one can react. If the robber is armed, it may be best not to react. The other situation is when two egos that cannot back down: macho-y-macho. So great, you spent years training to out slug or take down somebody in a bar or whatnot -- Oh the time misspent. If really want to be a "warrior," join the army.


----------



## lklawson (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Let's ask the burning question: Why do so many dream of "the fight?"


They do?

Maybe I'm just getting older or maybe I just practice the "wrong" martial arts, but most of the people I train or train with usually aren't all that interested in "the fight."  Yeah, it's a nice "that as well" for some but for most it's "let's just do some martial arts stuff."

Perhaps a better question would be to step back one on the logic chain and ask, "Do you (or most of your students/training partners) worry/dream about 'the fight'?"

That helps avoid assumptions.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

There is no need to use "warrior", "macho", "ego", ... to put down MA in general.

MA training is for

- combat,
- fun,
- health.

To develop the combat ability is like to buy fire insurance. You hope that your house will never be burn down. 

In training, when you opponent throws a punch at your head and you move your head away successfully, you may smile in your dreams for the next 3 nights. This kind of fun even money cannot buy it. 

The health will be something extra that you may not look for it but it will come to you by default.

What else do you want from your your MA training?


----------



## Rumy73 (Dec 31, 2013)

lklawson said:


> They do?
> 
> Maybe I'm just getting older or maybe I just practice the "wrong" martial arts, but most of the people I train or train with usually aren't all that interested in "the fight."  Yeah, it's a nice "that as well" for some but for most it's "let's just do some martial arts stuff."
> 
> ...



You just made several generalizations, too.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Let's ask the burning question: Why do so many dream of "the fight?" Part of  martial arts, sadly, is about men wanting to prove something in a violent encounter. Say you  "succeed" in a fight, what have you proven?  Of course, self defense is core to most MA; however, good self defense is about avoiding dangerous situations or deescalation. Not enough time is spent talking about and training in those very relevant tactics; and instead, a lot of "nonsense" is bantered about whether this MMA move is good, or that BJJ lock is useless, or this Karate kick will work in a "fight." The dream of the "fight" is wasted time, as most folks are not going to have violent encounters. (Of course, if one is in law enforcement, the military or some kind of security work, this may be a different matter entirely -- and that really is a different subject.) Now I can already anticipate the chorus of retorts that will scream: "in order to be prepared for it, one must train for it."  Great, what exactly is the "it"? Violent crime, like a strong arm robbery, general comes without warning. One will be surprised and often it is over before one can react. If the robber is armed, it may be best not to react. The other situation is when two egos that cannot back down: macho-y-macho. So great, you spent years training to out slug or take down somebody in a bar or whatnot -- Oh the time misspent. If really want to be a "warrior," join the army.



What are you using to support this statement? And I do not think you have anticipated my answer

Speaking of generalization your entire premise is based on one 



> Why do so many dream of "the fight?


 
As for what it proves, it proves nothing and I do not think many do dream of fighting at all

Frankly I have been in MA for over 40 years and never have I dream of "the fight&#8221; and I cannot remember any in that 41 years that did either. My first Sensei (Japanese Jujutsu) was very big on telling us not to fight and telling us about the seriousness of a fight and that running was a much better option and that fighting was the last resort. He even told us about the times he ran to avoid &#8220;the fight&#8221; and never once told us about any fight he was in.

I&#8217;ve been in fights, it was part of a job I had many moons ago, but I was not dreaming of &#8220;the fight&#8221; even then, mostly I was trying real hard to avoid &#8220;the fight&#8221;, sadly I was not always successful


----------



## lklawson (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> You just made several generalizations, too.


Go on...

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Rumy73 (Dec 31, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> What are you using to support this statement? And I do not think you have anticipated my answer
> 
> Speaking of generalization your entire premise is based on one
> 
> ...



Read the forums. Easy to find emphasis about "what works in a fight." I also encountered this in the varies schools I attended. To say a portion of ppl in MA dream of fighting is hardly inaccurate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Easy to find emphasis about "what works in a fight."


Of course you want to train something that may work in fighting. Why do you want to waste your training time to train anything that's not useful?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Read the forums. Easy to find emphasis about "what works in a fight." I also encountered this in the varies schools I attended. To say a portion of ppl in MA dream of fighting is hardly inaccurate.



I believe it is highly inaccurate and making a gross generalization

First the Forum is not real life but in the 7 years I have been on it I would say the majority of the posts are not about fighting. Every now and then it goes through phases where a few armchair MMAist show up and start yelling about fighting. However if you want to use the forum as evidence then you have already defeated your own argument since the majority of the posts on MT and for that matter on the forums I have been on, have little or nothing to so with "the fight" as you put it. Also using posts on MT, for the most part, rules out your title when you say "layman" since layman is a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject. Now if you are talking about the occasional wanna-be that shows up or the armchair MMAist then you may be onto something since most of their knowledge comes from movies and TV.

In my over forty years I have trained Jujutsu, TKD, Karate, Long Fist, Wing Chun, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Sanda and Taijiquan. I have visited countless other schools in that time as well, talk to countless others from multiple styles (even in China) and I cannot remember one person ever glorifying or dreaming about &#8220;the fight&#8221;. I already told you about my Jujutsu Sensei. My Sanda sifu would not teach just anyone what he knew because he did not want people going off and hurting people so even there (where many would least expect it) it was about avoiding the fight. I even had a great discussion with a real live MMA trainer who was also trained in Muay Thai, Krav Maga and was (at that time) a blue belt in BJJ under Carlos Machado (I believe he is now a black belt) and he was not even talking about &#8220;the fight&#8221;, he did talk about pressure testing in the event you were in one in an SD situation, he did talk about training his people for the ring. But most of our conversation was about health, fitness and he was real interested in Taijiquan and Xingyiquan since he was also looking for ways to help his people win in the ring and anything he thought would help him help his people was useful to him.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course you want to train something that may work in fighting. Why do you want to waste your training time to train anything that's not useful?




exactly, finding what works in a fight is very different from a 





> Dream of "The Fight"


----------



## Rumy73 (Dec 31, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe it is highly inaccurate and making a gross generalization
> 
> First the Forum is not real life but in the 7 years I have been on it I would say the majority of the posts are not about fighting. Every now and then it goes through phases where a few armchair MMAist show up and start yelling about fighting. However if you want to use the forum as evidence then you have already defeated your own argument since the majority of the posts on MT and for that matter on the forums I have been on, have little or nothing to so with "the fight" as you put it. Also using posts on MT, for the most part, rules out your title when you say "layman" since layman is a person without professional or specialized knowledge in a particular subject. Now if you are talking about the occasional wanna-be that shows up or the armchair MMAist then you may be onto something since most of their knowledge comes from movies and TV.
> 
> In my over forty years I have trained Jujutsu, TKD, Karate, Long Fist, Wing Chun, Xingyiquan, Baguazhang, Sanda and Taijiquan. I have visited countless other schools in that time as well, talk to countless others from multiple styles (even in China) and I cannot remember one person ever glorifying or dreaming about the fight. I already told you about my Jujutsu Sensei. My Sanda sifu would not teach just anyone what he knew because he did not want people going off and hurting people so even there (where many would least expect it) it was about avoiding the fight. I even had a great discussion with a real live MMA trainer who was also trained in Muay Thai, Krav Maga and was (at that time) a blue belt in BJJ under Carlos Machado (I believe he is now a black belt) and he was not even talking about the fight, he did talk about pressure testing in the event you were in one in an SD situation, he did talk about training his people for the ring. But most of our conversation was about health, fitness and he was real interested in Taijiquan and Xingyiquan since he was also looking for ways to help his people win in the ring and anything he thought would help him help his people was useful to him.



Oh xue sheng, i love it when you do the ole whip out the resume. Lol. Have a great day.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Oh xue sheng, i love it when you do the ole whip out the resume. Lol. Have a great day.



interesting, I don't often do that but for the record it shows a basis for statements made and laughing about it still does not make you right......later


----------



## Rumy73 (Dec 31, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> interesting, I don't often do that but for the record it shows a basis for statements made and laughing about it still does not make you right......later



Is English your first language?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Is English your first language?



Yup, is it yours?

However misinterpretation is easy in a forum, is there something I misinterpreted?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Oh xue sheng, i love it when you do the ole whip out the resume. Lol. Have a great day.


Do you start a thread so you can argue with others, or do you start a thread so you can hear what other people may want to say?

A: My opinion is ....
B: My opinion is ....
C: My opinion is ....
D: My opinion is ....
A: You guys are all wrong! Lol. Have a nice day.
B: :hmm:
C: :hmm:
D: :hmm:

By the way, English is not my 1st language.


----------



## K-man (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Of course, self defense is core to most MA; however, good self defense is about avoiding dangerous situations or deescalation. Not enough time is spent talking about and training in those very relevant tactics; and instead, a lot of "nonsense" is bantered about whether this MMA move is good, or that BJJ lock is useless, or this Karate kick will work in a "fight."


To me, there are two sides to self defence. First there is avoidance and de-escalation. Secondly there is contact and extrication. If I might take Chris Parker's side here, and I'm sure he'll put in his two bobs worth later, martial arts are *in that sense* generally not for 'self defence'. Now in our training we do talk a lot about avoidance, awareness, legal issues etc but primarily if someone signs up for say Krav Maga, they are not there with concerns for a potential attacker's health. They are learning a particularly nasty way to protect themselves in the event that they are attacked. The reason I picked Krav as the example is that Krav has no kata or forms, the techniques are simple and are pretty much all based on instinctive response and gross motor skills. 

If we look at traditional karate, there is much more to learn. The techniques include the simple and instinctive but there are many hidden techniques in kata and it is potentially a life time of study. Whereas in Krav the techniques are clear cut and distilled, in karate things are not so defined. So your 'nonsense' question of "would this karate kick work in a 'fight' becomes a very relevant question. As *Kung Fu Wang* said, "Of course you want to train something that may work in fighting. Why do you want to waste your training time to train anything that's not useful?" 

As as to dreaming of the fight. I may have as a child when I was learning boxing. I really can't remember. I may have as an adult when we were competing in tournaments. Again, I can't remember but in either event it would have been a dream within a sporting context, not a massive street fight. 

I don't train to fight, but I do train in case I have to fight (subtle difference), but sorry, I have much more peaceful dreams.
:asian:


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 31, 2013)

Rumy73 said:


> Let's ask the burning question
> Why do so many dream of "the fight?"


Who are the "so many"  that think this?


> Part of  martial arts, sadly, is about men wanting to prove something in a violent encounter.


Not part of any Martial Art Ive learned 





> Say you  "succeed" in a fight, what have you proven?


You have proven the need for a Lawyer or Doc or both


> Of course, self defense is core to most MA; however, good self defense is about avoiding dangerous situations or deescalation. Not enough time is spent talking about and training in those very relevant tactics;


Where?  We spend a great del of time in my dojo and in my Police D/T classes I teach talking about avoiding the fight.  


> and instead, a lot of "nonsense" is bantered about whether this MMA move is good, or that BJJ lock is useless, or this Karate kick will work in a "fight." The dream of the "fight" is wasted time, as most folks are not going to have violent encounters.


True most will never be involved in a fight at all as an adult.  So I guess with that thinking why train at all?  in fact most people wont be in a car accident today either so why bother wearing a seat belt?


> (Of course, if one is in law enforcement, the military or some kind of security work, this may be a different matter entirely -- and that really is a different subject.)


I agree totally different topic


> Now I can already anticipate the chorus of retorts that will scream: "in order to be prepared for it, one must train for it."  Great, what exactly is the "it"? Violent crime, like a strong arm robbery, general comes without warning. One will be surprised and often it is over before one can react. If the robber is armed, it may be best not to react.


The act itself may be a surprise but its normally not without warning signs or other preventable factors.


> The other situation is when two egos that cannot back down: macho-y-macho. So great, you spent years training to out slug or take down somebody in a bar or whatnot -- Oh the time misspent. If really want to be a "warrior," join the army.


Usually when talking about Martial Artists this is more "Macho"-vs- "leave me alone", Ok I have no choice but to defend myself and in that case its not time wasted.

So who sre these guys that want to be a warrior?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Jan 1, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of course you want to train something that may work in fighting. Why do you want to waste your training time to train anything that's not useful?



Yet people do it all the time.


----------



## Rumy73 (Jan 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Who are the "so many"  that think this?
> 
> Not part of any Martial Art Ive learned
> You have proven the need for a Lawyer or Doc or both
> ...



. The report on crime was illuminating.


----------



## Rumy73 (Jan 1, 2014)

Thanks for all the wisdom. Silly of me to say MA has participants who think of fighting. (Silly of of me to consider ppl play pile on and disagree, just because .... ) Glad to know MA is full of peace loving types. I was so wrong.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Thanks for all the wisdom. Silly of me to say MA has participants who think of fighting. (Silly of of me to consider ppl play pile on and disagree, just because .... ) Glad to know MA is full of peace loving types. I was so wrong.


Well to me there is a huge difference between fighting and self defense.  I never think about fighting because I don't fight people.  I do consider self defense situations discuss them and figure out different answers to the situation.  But you didbt ask about self defense you asked about  fighting.


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 1, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> . The report on crime was illuminating.



Illuminating and true


----------



## Rumy73 (Jan 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Illuminating and true



Yes, always correct.


----------



## lklawson (Jan 2, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Thanks for all the wisdom.


You're welcome.





> Silly of me to say MA has participants who think of fighting.


No, what was silly of you was to write, "Why do so many dream of 'the fight'?" That's what was silly.  Not "think of fighting," "DREAM of fighting."Very different things.





> (Silly of of me to consider ppl play pile on and disagree, just because .... ) Glad to know MA is full of peace loving types. I was so wrong.


"A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise." -Chas Clements (Silat Instructor)


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Thanks for all the wisdom. Silly of me to say MA has participants who think of fighting. (Silly of of me to consider ppl play pile on and disagree, just because .... ) Glad to know MA is full of peace loving types. I was so wrong.



Oh please, you make a gross generalization that is just plain wrong and people don't agree with you and now your the victim....grow up

Kind of like your other thread where you resorted to condescension and insults when people did not agree and you had nothing to back up your statements....do better research before you start this stuff and you'll get further


----------



## wimwag (Jan 2, 2014)

Ummm I never came into martial arts because I wanted to fight.  I also wasn't looking forward to a Honk Kong movie style showdown with an evil foreman and his henchmen at the old ice factory.  I started learning because I saw how happy all my friends who practiced martial arts were.  The self defense application is a bonus.  The peace of mind and camaraderie in a dojo is what I like best.  I also like spending my time doing something beneficial for the body instead of playing Xbox and eating Doritos.  You can practice anywhere.  Literally.  Sometimes you get into the zone and then realize a crowd of kids gathered to watch when last time you checked, you were the sole inhabitant of the park.

I don't dream of "the fight." I do, however, visualize my opponent when practicing kata or fundamentals.


----------

