# Kenpo Factions



## kenpochip (Aug 7, 2002)

Is Kenpo more divided (in terms of numbers of substyles and animosity among them) than other major styles of martial arts?  If so, why?  Is it Kenpo's experimental and practical philosophy or is it just the nature of martial art systems in general?

KenpoChip


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 9, 2002)

This is strictly a personal opinion, but I don't think kenpo is more or less "fractured" than other systems.  Look at all the "flavors" of Jeet Kune Do and you'll think kenpo is virtually a unified system.  And systems that aren't highly fractured have a high degree of variability in quality -- tae kwon do as an example.

My personal opinion is that personality-driven systems (like American kenpo and JKD) fracture upon the death of the unifying personality.  As egos begin to take over, entropy prevails and BAM -- you get Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.

I love kenpo and many of its flavors -- and I'll be happy studying them for a long time.

Just my opinion and nothing more....

Tad Finnegan


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 9, 2002)

Entropy... huh.     :redeme:


It's nice to know I'm not the only engineering/science geek around here.  Are you one of Bruce's or Kathy/Marlene?


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *Entropy... huh.
> 
> It's nice to know I'm not the only engineering/science geek around here.  Are you one of Bruce's or Kathy/Marlene? *



When I'm in training, I'm with Newark Kenpo Karate (Kathy & Marlene's studio).  I'm temporarily out of training (job issue)  , but hope to be back with them soon.  I still try to stop in to say "hi" every now and again....

Tad Finnegan

PS: Glad to see fellow geeks can spot me right off the bat....


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 9, 2002)

BTW, KenpoYahoo, who are you in real life?

Tad


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## jfarnsworth (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanged_seamus _
> 
> *
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> ...




You've got me thinking here. Under your name says Delaware, ohio or the state? 
Jason Farnsworth


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## arnisador (Aug 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanged_seamus _
> 
> *My personal opinion is that personality-driven systems (like American kenpo and JKD) fracture upon the death of the unifying personality.  As egos begin to take over, entropy prevails and BAM -- you get Baskin-Robbins 31 flavors.
> *



We're seeing it in Modern Arnis now, which centered atrongly around the late Prof. Presas.

Speaking more generally, though, is this bad? From the split come subsystems, experimentation, choice...I hate to see it in my own art but philosophically I'm not sure it's a bad thing.

Evolution, not entropy.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _*
> Delaware, ohio or the state?
> *



State

:asian:


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
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> *
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I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing to see these splits, but it does force people new to the martial arts into a "buyer beware" situation.  I personally love the subsystem ("flavor") of American kenpo I study, and I don't know that it would exist if Mr. Parker were still alive.

The only real problem, IMO, is that the students have to be even MORE cautious to avoid opportunists.  Those people, the ones who take advantage of the students, really tick me off since they end up giving a bad name to the art as a whole.

I like your quote of "evolution, not entropy" -- we just need to make sure that the "maladaptive species" die out so the art is stronger on the whole. 

Tad Finnegan

PS: Mr. Farnswortth, as Goldendragon7 said, I live in the state of Delaware, about 30 minutes from downtown Philadelphia.


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## Les (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanged_seamus _
> 
> *
> I personally love the subsystem ("flavor") of American kenpo I study, and I don't know that it would exist if Mr. Parker were still alive.*



Tad,

As I understand it, before he formed our Association, the Paul Mills Family Group were taking that direction within the IKKA.

So perhaps that flavor was there all along, but you had to be training in a particular area to get a taste of it.

Golden Dragon will probably be able to enlighten us.

Les


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## Les (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fanged_seamus _
> 
> *BTW, KenpoYahoo, who are you in real life?
> 
> Tad *



Kenpo Yahoo, a mythical legend, travelling through cyberspace, intriguing the population of many forums, and leaving a trail of interesting and informative posts.    

KenpoYahoo, are you who I thought you were in the private message I sent you? 

Les


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
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> *
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Ah...didn't know that Kenpo Yahoo didn't want to be "outed."  Since I'd seen him/her on other forums mentioning the AKKI, I was curious to see who he/she was.  Alas, the mystery shall remain....

Tad


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## fanged_seamus (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *As I understand it, before he formed our Association, the Paul Mills Family Group were taking that direction within the IKKA.
> 
> ...



Actually, that brings up a point about all the kenpo factions.  I mentioned that I felt strong personalities unite a system of martial arts -- but that's not always the case.  Theoretically, the evolution of a system might depend on the people under the founder having the freedom to explore their own ideas and incorporate them.

Mr. Ed Parker himself took the ball and ran with it, so to speak.  He wanted to modernize kenpo to handle modern self-defense issues.  What if he didn't have the freedom to explore that option?  What if his ideas were suppressed?

Maybe Mr. Parker's passing allowed some of the senior instructors to explore areas they might not have considered before.  Not because Mr. Parker ruled with an iron fist (although I heard his fist FELT like iron), but because they respected him too much to interfere with "his" art.

I really like the arnisador's statement about "evolution" the more I think about it....

Tad


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

> KenpoYahoo, are you who I thought you were in the private message I sent you?



I guess not, cause I never got a message.  Are you or any of your guys going to make it to the Fall camp?  Hope to see you there


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## kenpochip (Aug 12, 2002)

I like the idea of evolution metaphor, too, but I suggest that it may be more productive to consider the substyles as individuals within a species, rather than new species themselves.

When the substyle is viewed as a species, it suggests that only new substyles will inherit the adaptations, the substyles being somehow incompatible with each other as different species.   If the substyle is viewed as an individual, that individual's offspring (future versions of the substyle itself or a "child" with another substyle) may incorporate useful adaptations.  

Looking at it this way encourages the sharing of information among the various substyles that are compatible enough to do so.  In real life, many practitioners go to seminars sponsored by other associations, which is a good thing.

I think it would be useful to have the AKSC help all of the substyles continue to innovate and share information.   Some sort of rank recognition across the associations may be a useful part of enouraging someone from one association to be open to training with or otherwise sharing with someone from another association.

Chip


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

> Taken from the homepage of www.aksc.org
> 
> "The purpose of the American Kenpo Senior Council is to perpetuate the art of American Kenpo as originally envisioned by Senior Grand Master Ed Parker. To this end the Council will seek to enlighten those who consider themselves to be part of the lineage of Ed Parker regardless of association or affiliation. The Council will provide leadership, guidance, advice, and assistance in the art as well as methods and means for acknowledging the dedication and efforts of others in the system deserving of recognition. The Council will legitimize the attainment of those who receive rank from it and will outline standardized requirements in which to endorse and promote rankings for Fifth Degree Black Belt and above."



What does everyone think about this?


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> The very first sentence says it all.  How can a system evolve when their are organizations created to keep it the way it was originally designed?  Seems a little counter-intuitive doesn't it.
> *



Not if you understand exactly what the design was!!  

Mr. Parker never restricted thought, this was in the core design within the Kenpo Tools (Equation Formula, Universal Pattern, Principles, ASOM  etc.), not just the curriculum (which was  formed to establish a BASE to help the beginners & allow the advanced to expan upon).

Keeping that vision complete, alive, and intact was the purpose.  Mr. Parker always loved the thinkers and doers.

:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

AHHHH   you caught me.  

I thought about what I had written and decided to change it, to see what others thought.  However, I don't see how you can bring about an evolution of a system without questioning the building blocks of that system.  From what I've seen, most aren't willing to question anything set forth by Mr. Parker.  The man was a phenom., but even he evaluated what he did and made several changes through the years, why is everyone so afraid to do the same?


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## Kirk (Aug 12, 2002)

How often would one chess player be so bold as to question
the foremost expert in Chess?  I'm not a chess player, so I can't
use any example other than Bobby Fischer.  Never lost a match!
Few have the knowledge and expertise to question his skills.  I
think it's bold that SO MANY question the leaders and experts in
martial arts.  Some have done it successfully .. but how many
haven't?


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo_*
> From what I've seen, most aren't willing to question anything set forth by Mr. Parker.  The man was a phenom., but even he evaluated what he did and made several changes through the years, why is everyone so afraid to do the same? *



but from my point of view..... several are.  

Many are quibbling over the correct sequential order of a technique often times, rather than the principles behind it.  Many want to be correct because "Ed Parker" showed them this way or that way (which he may have barring misunderstandings) .... however, the truth of the matter is ...... often times they are all correct...... Mr. Parker just showed a different variation of the base attack (which can be endless).

I don't think people are afraid of studying the "Building Blocks" of the system at all, but Damn, he covered most of the bases pretty darn well to begin with, so oftentimes, there is no need to reinvent the wheel in my opinion.

Should the time come that we find a big hole to fill, we will or someone will someday.  

I believe we have one of the most valuable systems  going but we need to understand the "core" much better -- if this were done we would have much less misunderstandings between one another.

:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

> Few have the knowledge and expertise to question his skills. I
> think it's bold that SO MANY question the leaders and experts in
> martial arts.



First off, there is no question of Mr. Parkers skill.  Second, how did those experts, in fact become experts?  If no one ever questioned how, why, or is there a better way, we would all still be living in caves. 



> Many are quibbling over the correct sequential order of a technique often times, rather than the principles behind it.



I agree that principles are the most important part of any system.  Techniques, from my understanding, are meant to effectively display these principles of self-defense or fighting prowess.  When was the last time anyone questioned the effectiveness of the techniques (club,knive, gun, open hand)?  Are you telling me that you would lunge forward into a twist stance while an attacker is throwing a flurry of punches?  How many people would consider doing a knuckle rake to someones ribs while leaping to one leg amid a powerful onslaught?  I'm not trying to be disrespectful (I hope it's not coming across that way), but I think that there are a few techniques that could easily be replaced with something more effective.  

Once again, this is just my opinion.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> I agree that principles are the most important part of any system.
> *



Good we got that out of the way!



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> Techniques, from my understanding, are meant to effectively display these principles of self-defense or fighting prowess.
> *



Correct....... teach the concepts and principles then give/display one (1) example of it's usage... not "ALL" Variations/possibilities are shown in each base movement.... that's why you need to understand the other "TOOLS" such as the "what if" phases of each technique so you can adapt.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> When was the last time anyone questioned the effectiveness of the techniques (club,knives, gun, open hand)?
> *



The last time we ventured into the "what if" phase of those techniques.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> Are you telling me that you would lunge forward into a twist stance while an attacker is throwing a flurry of punches?
> *



Probably not..... but it is possible, regardless this is just one example of a given defense... there are many others that do not do this, probably for the same reason you won't.  But that is for your flurry of punches..... "what if" the puncher is slightly reluctant and you "trip" into a twist stance...... just for instance.....



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> How many people would consider doing a knuckle rake to someone's ribs while leaping to one leg amid a powerful onslaught?
> *



Actually I have done this and it worked better than expected.... surprised the pants off of me!  
But again, this is another isolated example... 

Let me ask you a question...... what if we just delete all the ones you don't like and all the ones I don't like..... and lets call a few friends  and delete the ones they don't like.... then what would we have....?????   Get my drift.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> I'm not trying to be disrespectful (I hope it's not coming across that way),
> *



No, I don't think you are, good discussion....



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> but I think that there are a few techniques that could easily be replaced with something more effective.
> *



More effective than what....... remember you know what you know.... not what other instructors know, maybe they know of some good examples that we have not thought of yet for those "trouble techniques".

Just a thought

 :asian: 
:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
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> *
> 
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Would you be kind enough to post which techniques you believe should be replaced and with what, why, and try to be specific please.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## WilliamTLear (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
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> *
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I was under the impression that the techniques were ideas, not the end all be all of Kenpo applied in a real street confrontation. Although I have used a couple Kenpo techniques in a real fight, I have adapted in other situations and done something completely different as well.

Kenpo is what you make of it... I have my favortie techniques, and not so favorite techniques... I think we all do.

I remember absolutely hating one _technique_ in particular... *Brushing The Storm*. Until I tore it down, move by move, and developed enough skill to execute it properly, I hated it like none other. However, Brushing The Storm is one of my favorite techniques these days. I guess that's because I learned how to make it work, instead of throwing it away...

Refinement is a constant process... Don't throw it out because you can't make it work... Make it work and then... if you still don't like it, do something else (then, at least you can say it is an informed choice).

Hasta,
Billy Lear


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## eternalwhitebelt (Aug 12, 2002)

This has become an excellent thread.  I too believe that not enough people understand that the principals and concepts are the meat of the system.  Again great discussion.  Good question Clyde, I too am curios as to which techs. should be deleted. To go futher, could you explain what principals and concepts are involved in those techs., how they will be acounted for, and so on?


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

> Would you be kind enough to post which techniques you believe should be replaced and with what, why, and try to be specific please.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> 
> Clyde



Alright, I'm probably gonna regret this, but keep in mind the only reason I'm doing it is to get feedback.  If I'm totally off base, please tell me.  I consider the interaction with you guys as much a part of my learning process as banging out the techniques and forms.  If you don't agree please tell me why, as several people including myself could gain valuable insight.  Try to keep in mind that these are my opinions and no one elses.

Leaping Crane-  I personally see the raking leap to one leg as a bad move.  I mean your leaping as the guy is punching at you.  Would you not get more power by merely slipping the punch with a parry and a push drag?  You would still be on terra firma and have the ability to side kick the leg if the opportunity was still available, if it wasn't then your still in a good position to fight.

Wings of Silk-  I don't think I've ever seen anyone try to grab another person in this manner.  What is the practical application behind this technique?

Flashing Mace-  I have always loved this technique, just because I love the way it rips, but why would you turn your back to an opponent even if just for a split second?  

On any of the combination techniques in third brown, why would you want to do a front cross over?  Even if the stance change is fast, your still gonna be unstable throughout the transition.  Would a push drag or a shuffle not close the gap just as quickly?  I can't say that I've ever seen a boxer or NHB fighter ever try a crossover to close the gap unless it was followed by a side kick or a back kick.

Capturing the Storm, Obstructing the Storm, etc.....  Anything that uses an upward cross block to stop someone from pile driving a beer bottle or club of some fashion into my head.  Some of the club attacks I've seen are tremendously fast, not the ones by kenpo or filipino guys, but the ones from the non-trained guys I can con into working out with me.  Besides most seem to want to travel on a diagonal plane like their throwing a baseball.  When something has that much velocity wouldn't you want to deflect and divert, or seek some zone of sanctuary (eye of the storm)?  Not try to absorb all the force with your wrists, even if your fast enough to get your hands up, if your timing or aim is slightly off then the club breaks your hands and your face.

This is already way to long, and I'm sure people have enough material to throw back at me, so I guess I'll quit for now.  Depending on the severity of the backlash, I may continue later.  I would however like to be told if my point of view is way off.  Don't just get pissed off, if you don't agree take a second to explain what I'm missing.  I'm hoping to learn more about my art through this, eventhough I know I'll probably get beat around electronically more than I'll get helped.

Remember, these are my opinions and no one elses.


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## Klondike93 (Aug 12, 2002)

> Don't throw it out because you can't make it work... Make it work and then... if you still don't like it, do something else (then, at least you can say it is an informed choice).



Good point William, to which I believe Mr. Parker said, "never throw anything away. Catagorize them as useful, unuseful or useless".  


:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

> Good point William, to which I believe Mr. Parker said, "never throw anything away. Catagorize them as useful, unuseful or useless".



I agree with Mr. Lear that you should bust your butt trying to explore a technique.  While I'm not sure if Mr. Parker said that, I'll try and look it up, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of keeping something that is "unuseful or useless."  There are only so many hours in the day, why would you want to spend time training something that is, as you put it, "useless?"


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _
> 
> *
> 
> I agree with Mr. Lear that you should bust your butt trying to explore a technique.  While I'm not sure if Mr. Parker said that, I'll try and look it up, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of keeping something that is "unuseful or useless."  There are only so many hours in the day, why would you want to spend time training something that is, as you put it, "useless?" *



I've always wondered why people put storage sheds in their yards, or their attics are full of "unuseful items".      Seems to me that they keep them in order to use them at a later time.   You should see some of the stuff I've kept around only to have to NEED it later, sometimes years down the road.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## jeffkyle (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
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> *
> 
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I have alot of that type of stuff as well...but who knows....


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## brianhunter (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
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> *
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Ex-girlfriends hog tied in the attic don't count man


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## Klondike93 (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
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I've always thought that was his point, keep it just in case you might need any part of it at a later date, or to tinker with it and see how to improve it.


:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *
> 
> Ex-girlfriends hog tied in the attic don't count man *




Quit telling on me.....


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 12, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> While I'm not sure if Mr. Parker said that, I'll try and look it up, I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of keeping something that is "un-useful or useless."
> *



Yes, that WAS an Ed Parker Quote.

I used to have a hard time with "un-useful or useless" as well  but remember, there is a purpose for everything ..... such as a comparative analysis tool.  Mr. Parker also said, you should "Know of" some things, "KNOW" some things, then "Understand" some things.   Some things were just meant to examine not gain tremendous skills with.



> _Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo _*
> There are only so many hours in the day, why would you want to spend time training something that is, as you put it, "useless?"
> *



You wouldn't TRAIN it if it were useless, but you WOULD want to be able to recognize it so you didn't waste your time.  You just file them so you know what 'bad examples' are.

:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 12, 2002)

> You wouldn't TRAIN it if it were useless, but you WOULD want to be able to recognize it so you didn't waste your time. You just file them so you know what 'bad examples' are.



I see, thank you for taking the time to explain it further.


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## kenpochip (Aug 12, 2002)

> _ Originally posted by GD7 _ You wouldn't TRAIN it if it were useless, but you WOULD want to be able to recognize it



I'm in software development.  There are books in my field out there on Patterns, which are good practices that have already been figured out by someone else (usually lots of someone elses).   There are also books out there on Anti-Patterns which are common bad ways of doing things. They explain why following the Anti-Pattern is not as useful as another approach. The Anti-Patterns books are great so that you can make sure you are not doing them.  

Chip


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 13, 2002)

A Kenpo book on how NOT to do techniques.......

I think there are a few of these out there ...... right?

:rofl:


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## satans.barber (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I tell you what I hate......Squatting Sacrifice!

I have tried to see the merits of this, but it's just crap isn't it!? You expose yourself sooo badly on the leg grabbing bit, especially since no majot strikes have gone in yet, I can't see how it ever came to be.

Ah well, I'm someone out there must like it!

Ian.


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 13, 2002)

Personally, I keep having this recurrent bad experience with dumping kenpo techniques. I go ask Mr. Tatum, he gives me a funny look, and demonstrates exactly why the tech works great. Or--just as often--I find out why the way I'm dummying sucks.

Reminds me of the time a friend of mine, Jeff Learned, told Tak Kubota that front ball kicks to the groin were no good, didn't work. "Not doing kick properly," he was told. "No really, Mr. Kubota," he said, "I've got the kick. I just think the testicles aren't aligned anatomically to get hurt." "Not doing kick properly," again. Jeff insisted he was. He really shouldn't have, as he realized right after Mr. Kubota kicked him, turning his foot slightly to squeeze the wrinklies against the side of the thigh. Oops.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Personally, I keep having this recurrent bad experience with dumping kenpo techniques. I go ask Mr. Tatum, he gives me a funny look, and demonstrates exactly why the tech works great. Or--just as often--I find out why the way I'm dummying sucks.
> 
> Reminds me of the time a friend of mine, Jeff Learned, told Tak Kubota that front ball kicks to the groin were no good, didn't work. "Not doing kick properly," he was told. "No really, Mr. Kubota," he said, "I've got the kick. I just think the testicles aren't aligned anatomically to get hurt." "Not doing kick properly," again. Jeff insisted he was. He really shouldn't have, as he realized right after Mr. Kubota kicked him, turning his foot slightly to squeeze the wrinklies against the side of the thigh. Oops. *



Very Good................ roflmao........ all too true.....!!!!!!!!!

:asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
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> *
> 
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You're not getting the correct exposure to the art you should be, but that's your choice, I used to have the same problem when I trained with another instructor.    Your attitude appears detrimental to your learning as well from what I'm reading.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Seig (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
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How can you call this crap?  This technique is around most arts that I have studied in one form or another.  When you drop your elbows onto the forearms, you should be aiming for the radial nerves, this in turn will cause them to loosen their grip at the worst and to flail their arms at best.  Either way, as you twist the foot, they should not be able to fall properly, causing further injury.  As you twist the foot, you can be damaging the foot, the ankle, the knee and the hip.  What can be bad about that?  As you shift forward, a slight foot push drag can stike the testicles.  As you grab the wrist and pull up it places reverse curvature of the spine which makes the stomp all the more devastating.  Have you thought about "Marriage of Gravity" while doing the stomp?


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## kenpo3631 (Aug 14, 2002)

These are my observations and not to be taken as the end all be all to the techniques by any means...:asian:



> Leaping Crane-  I personally see the raking leap to one leg as a bad move.  I mean your leaping as the guy is punching at you.  Would you not get more power by merely slipping the punch with a parry and a push drag?  You would still be on terra firma and have the ability to side kick the leg if the opportunity was still available, if it wasn't then your still in a good position to fight.



There is merit in your statement. with a solid base you can really blast someone. However there is more than meets the eye to "Leaping Crane". 

Leaping Crane demonstrates the idea that when you cross your centerline you need to take something with it, meaning as you pull your hand across your body you need to strike something along the way...(no wasted motion). Think about it. You can easily leap out of the way and not do the knuckle rake. In that same move you are loading your weapon for the back knuckle strike to the kidney. Remember you "block to cock", although you are not blocking in this case your are still cocking your weapon. The one leg stance also cocks the leg for the delivery of the side kick. You are introduced to working your opponents centerline from behind your opponent. You are also showing how to strike to the different height zones - Middle, Low, High...later you see this technique vary to go High, Middle, Low, etc.



> On any of the combination techniques in third brown, why would you want to do a front cross over?  Even if the stance change is fast, your still gonna be unstable throughout the transition.  Would a push drag or a shuffle not close the gap just as quickly?  I can't say that I've ever seen a boxer or NHB fighter ever try a crossover to close the gap unless it was followed by a side kick or a back kick.



The key to remember is that shuffles are inserted where and when needed. When doing Circling Fans the technique calls for a front cross over. This move allows you to 1.) close the gap between you and the opponents  (if the kick drives him back), 2.) It allows you to advance into your opponent without having to open _your_ centerline to you opponent, 3.) allows you to utilize horizontal back up mass without shifting into a forward bow. when emerging out of the cross over you are lining your knee for the strike to the groin, you are also using you leg as a track to thread the knee into your opponents groin. Boxers don't do cross over stances to my knowledge and and as you also stated the NHB fighter follows the cross over with a kick...see above 



> Capturing the Storm, Obstructing the Storm, etc.....  Anything that uses an upward cross block to stop someone from pile driving a beer bottle or club of some fashion into my head.  Some of the club attacks I've seen are tremendously fast, not the ones by kenpo or filipino guys, but the ones from the non-trained guys I can con into working out with me.  Besides most seem to want to travel on a diagonal plane like their throwing a baseball.  When something has that much velocity wouldn't you want to deflect and divert, or seek some zone of sanctuary (eye of the storm)?  Not try to absorb all the force with your wrists, even if your fast enough to get your hands up, if your timing or aim is slightly off then the club breaks your hands and your face.



Well I think you should endeavor to see the Dog Brothers stick fighting tapes, or ask Guro Al McLuckie work with you with the sticks or simply work with Huk. If you don't think Kenpo and Philipino stick fighters don't move tremendously fast... I too agree with you about stepping to a zone of sanctuary and or divert and deflect the force of the strike. If you look at the club techniques they all step to a zone of sanctuary... from what I have been shown you do not absorb the full force of the strike...I guess it all depends on who is showing you the techniques. Maybe you should analyze and question the methods in which your instructor performs the technique.:asian:


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## rmcrobertson (Aug 14, 2002)

Just to back up the last poster, I'd add that I think some of these questions come out of very one-dimensional ideas about how techniques work, and about how learning a martial arts progresses. They leave out the possibility of multiple applications--and worse than that, they overlook the way most of us learn martial arts. In other words, the techs--and their applications--aren't teaching just one thing, working on just one level.

Or to put the same thing in the form of a question: is there special merit to the kenpo system, insofar as learning is concerned?


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## eternalwhitebelt (Aug 14, 2002)

Kenpo 3631 and Mr. Robertson hit the nail on the head.  The jist of it is in the WHY.  Higher order thinking skills, i.e. synthesis, and evaluation, should be attempted to be taught.  Most people are on the rote memory stage of techs., that is why there is so much arguing over this is how it is "supposed" to go and this is how "we" do it.  The underlying principals and concepts are the true meat.  I have a fondness for instructors who teach this way.  They could care less what move you did as long as you are est. a base, checking zones, using power principals, moving with economy of motion, not getting in your own way, and so on, and so on.  Unfortunatly these kinds of instructors are rare, I usually find people only want to learn new moves and not why certain moves work, and certain moves work better, and certain moves work best.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 14, 2002)

"Two things you need to give your students .....Roots and Wings."

They need a strong base to start with, complete with all the "Kenpo Tools" and numerous methods and directions of research to continue to discover and relate.   The student must then be guided to understand and "explore" the numerous applications and variations beyond the original base, which then opens many doors to understand the "usage" (such as timing, environmental adjustments, range adjustments, position or maneuver adjustments, weapon changes, target changes, etc....) of the material vs. just the "learning or acquisition" of the material.

Then, the ability to realize that the "established material" was taught for the essentials which was then internalized only to used extemporaneously in a real crisis.

X amount of time needs to be used to "Learn" the material then X amount of time needs to be used to "Work" and understand the material.

:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 14, 2002)

Thank you Kenpo3631, I appreciate the response.



> Leaping Crane demonstrates the idea that when you cross your centerline you need to take something with it, meaning as you pull your hand across your body you need to strike something along the way...(no wasted motion). Think about it. You can easily leap out of the way and not do the knuckle rake. In that same move you are loading your weapon for the back knuckle strike to the kidney. Remember you "block to cock", although you are not blocking in this case your are still cocking your weapon. The one leg stance also cocks the leg for the delivery of the side kick. You are introduced to working your opponents centerline from behind your opponent. You are also showing how to strike to the different height zones - Middle, Low, High...later you see this technique vary to go High, Middle, Low, etc.



I agree that centerline control and economy of motion are important aspects.  My concern with leaping crane isn't that there is a knuckle rake as you cross your center line, but that you were doing this while you are leaping to one leg.  My question was why don't we just slip the punch and do a side kick if the target is still there?  Doesn't jumping to one leg leave you incredibly unstable?  100% of your mass is traveling to a single structural support while you are avoiding a strike and delivering one of your own.  



> Well I think you should endeavor to see the Dog Brothers stick fighting tapes, or ask Guro Al McLuckie work with you with the sticks or simply work with Huk. If you don't think Kenpo and Philipino stick fighters don't move tremendously fast...



I have no doubt that Philipino stick fighters and trained kenpoists can move a stick.  What I said in my post was that I had some friends of mine, who are untrained, swing a rubber club at my head as hard and fast as they could.  When I did this drill I told them to hold the club about chest level about where someone might hold a beer bottle if they were gonna swing it, and without any announcement they should try to hit me in the head.  Every time I threw up my hands for the cross block, they cracked me right in head.  I found that I had more success diverting, similiar to Raining Lance or Evading the Storm, or by seeking an inner zone of sanctuary (like in eye of the storm).  If a normal, untrained, guy could land a just about everytime then I figured a stick fighter would have no problem doing it.  At least that's the point I was trying to make.

Thanks for your insight


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## satans.barber (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *
> How can you call this crap?  This technique is around most arts that I have studied in one form or another.  When you drop your elbows onto the forearms, you should be aiming for the radial nerves, this in turn will cause them to loosen their grip at the worst and to flail their arms at best.  Either way, as you twist the foot, they should not be able to fall properly, causing further injury.  As you twist the foot, you can be damaging the foot, the ankle, the knee and the hip.  What can be bad about that?  As you shift forward, a slight foot push drag can stike the testicles.  As you grab the wrist and pull up it places reverse curvature of the spine which makes the stomp all the more devastating.  Have you thought about "Marriage of Gravity" while doing the stomp? *



That's all very well until you consider the multitide of better alternatives, which get major strikes in faster and therefore, IMO, put you in a safrer position more quickly.

If someone attacks you, you move from a position of safety into a position of danger, now, my interpretation of kenpo is that you do some major damage as soon as possible, in order to minimise the time before you move back into relative safety again (when the personal has been effectively disabled). Whilst most of the techniqes manage this, I don't think Squatting Sacrrifice does.

Firstly, whilst the foot comes up easily enough when it's a bare foot on a polished wood floor, I think the friction between the tarmac in the street and a rubber boot sole would be such that it would be very hard to bend down and pull someone's foot out from under them. This problem applys to drag style sweeps outside as well, the foot almost seems to 'stick' to the floor.

If you do get them down, then I don't think they're going to lay there all placid as you try and turn them over with the foot, because apart from the impact of them falling down, there's still no major strikes gone in. With adrenalyn pumping though the body, I don't think the pain of this would be sufficient to stop the person kicking out at you as you've got hold of there foot, which is going to make i hard to do the end of the technique.

If you do manage to turn them, you've got the groin kick, which fair enough is your major strike, but it took some getting to. After that you're supposed to snap the spine and kill them, landing you with a lovely life sentence in gaol. I don't see the merits of practising that.

My personal opinion, if you like it then bully for you! I'm glas someone does.

If you ask me it looks like bad slapstick 

Ian.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




That's because whoever is showing you is not showing you the entire technique from what I'm reading.    There's a knee snap and a hook kick to the head while you're flipping them over.    I really wouldn't call it bad because you've learned it without effect.   Your loss, you choose your own destiny and we've had this discussion before already.   If you want GOOD KENPO, find a place that does it better and see if you like it.    I'm sure you'll find it a worthwhile investment.    I also gather from reading your posts you like the easy and short techniques anyhow, but that's because of your limited knowledge of the system and whoever is teaching you.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _*
> If you ask me it looks like bad slapstick
> Ian. *



I'm not....... but keep working, someday you'll get it.


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## Seig (Aug 15, 2002)

Oh well, he's determined not to like it.  I tried!:idunno:


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