# Why the young believe they know more than they do ...



## pgsmith (Apr 29, 2015)

Or, "Why you should go out and run the world while you still know everything!"

  This is a response to a post made by a younger member of the forum, who accused me of stereotyping and being prejudicial. I thought it would be interesting to recount a small bit of a talk that I used to have annually with my Boy Scouts back when I was Scoutmaster. A group of 20 or 30 teenage boys contains pretty much the sum of human knowledge within them. Just ask them, they'll tell you!  

  All kidding aside, I have always felt that it's just as important for adults to realize why the young tend to spout nonsense with such assurance as it is for the young to realize that they actually know far less than they think they do.  My experience from working with youth for 20 years was that it is a direct result of puberty. As teenagers grow from their early teens to their early twenties, they are attempting to transition from children controlled by their parents, to independent thinking adults. This is a difficult process that results in much emotion, a lot of it negative, in order to create separation and independence from their parents. They also are learning to think for themselves and assert their own ideas and views on the world. Unfortunately, they rarely have enough actual experience in life to know whether their ideas and views are reasonable. The fact that their ideas and concerns have been created by themselves rather than being dictated by those over them lends them more credence in their mind. They have part of themselves invested in these ideas and views, so they tend to defend them vigorously, even when it seems obviously wrong to others.

  This being the case, I would always stress to the youth under me that it would serve them far better to listen to others and attempt to see their point of view rather than to attempt to defend their own. Other's point of view may be incorrect in the end, but the act of seeing it would stretch their own understanding of the world and enable them to make better decisions in the future. Understanding of others (and so themselves) is always the hardest thing for the young to grasp, in my opinion, and many people today never learn how. Therefore I always stressed that pushing for this understanding would expand their own knowledge of the world exponentially, and enable them to form views and opinions that are both valid and reasonable.

  So in response the original post that started me on this tirade, I am neither stereotyping nor prejudiced, just experienced. This should have been obvious from that fact that I could tell the poster was relatively young without knowing a thing about him other than reading a few of his posts.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 29, 2015)

Well said.  
From a human development stand point, the human brain develops over a very long time and goes through stages. It's not really fully developed until after these "teen age" years.

Historically certain world leaders have always taken advantage of the youth and young adult exactly because of the traits you have mentioned.
When ever a potential world leader puts focus on young adults it should always be cause for concern and a double look.
But people seem to never learn from history.


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## Steve (Apr 29, 2015)

It's interesting that younger people think they know everything, but don't... according to older people.  And older people think THEY know everything, but don't... according to younger people.  In varying contexts, both are right and both are also wrong.

Youth brings an outlook that is not mired in the deep ruts, prejudice and bias that experience can create.  But the risk is that you will repeat history because you will reinvent processes.

Experience brings with it a context that can help prevent you from making the same mistakes that have been made in the past.  But the risk is that the ruts can become so deep that you will fail to recognize good ideas for what they are, and can fall into a habit of inflexibility and unwillingness to adapt.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 29, 2015)

To be fair I've also encountered plenty of older folks who seem to think they know much more than they actually do.



pgsmith said:


> This being the case, I would always stress to the youth under me that it would serve them far better to listen to others and attempt to see their point of view rather than to attempt to defend their own.



I think that's excellent advice for everybody, not just the young folks.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

pgsmith you said you were a scoutmaster than you should know that Boy Scouts can be a challenge, especially for scouts who hope to go far in the program, learn much, and attain a high rank. You point out that people who think they know it all in fact know very little and I would have to agree. The more you learn the more you find out how much you don't know and that's why experts often feel that they don't know much and that their base of knowledge is the same as everybody else's. Anyway, somebody who goes far in Boy Scouts is going to be exposed to all sorts of new stuff and is going to learn a lot and in doing so will find out how much they don't know. It is hard to be an Eagle Scout. There is all this stuff you've got to know and do and an Eagle Scout is not going to be a dummy. As it is, though, its the dummies who think they know it all and to be an Eagle Scout you have to be under the age of 18 when you get it so therefore, you can't be a know it all dummy to be an Eagle Scout even though you will be relatively young (under the age of 18.) 

And adolescence is a completely natural and healthy process. The problem with today's world is that its viewed so negatively all too often. Growing up should be something to look forward to, not something to dread.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Well said.
> From a human development stand point, the human brain develops over a very long time and goes through stages. It's not really fully developed until after these "teen age" years.


Sometimes people are forced through circumstance to develop their brains earlier or at least to take on more adult roles earlier on in life. The brain is very malleable and can be made to adopt to various situations. I've known of young people who for whatever reason have run away from home and have survived for months, even years, on the streets. In the old days it wasn't uncommon for 16 year olds to be working full time, married, and to have children. Sadly since then we've gone backwards with the extended childhood and all.



hoshin1600 said:


> Historically certain world leaders have always taken advantage of the youth and young adult exactly because of the traits you have mentioned.
> When ever a potential world leader puts focus on young adults it should always be cause for concern and a double look.


True, very true. And very sad. One of the big mistakes young people make is to follow the mistakes of "older and wiser" people. Just because somebody is older and supposedly wiser doesn't mean they always have good ideas and it doesn't mean younger people should do them. Bad ideas are bad ideas, no matter who has them.



hoshin1600 said:


> But people seem to never learn from history.



Sad but true as I pointed out earlier in the post.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> It's interesting that younger people think they know everything, but don't... according to older people.  And older people think THEY know everything, but don't... according to younger people.  In varying contexts, both are right and both are also wrong.


Not necessarily. I was 12 when I started training in the martial arts and I looked up to and admired my Sensei and I did not question his superior knowledge in the martial arts, otherwise I would be the Sensei and he would be the student. He was an older person of course and I did not have the mindset that he though he knew it all but didn't. He never came across to me as a know it all. A very knowledgeable person will know that they are sometimes wrong and its the know it alls who don't know much, no matter what their age.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To be fair I've also encountered plenty of older folks who seem to think they know much more than they actually do.


Yes I've known people like that too. You will find know it alls among young people, old people, and everywhere in between. And you will find smart people with good ideas but who nonetheless know they still got a lot to learn in all such ranges as well


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> pgsmith said:
> 
> 
> > This being the case, I would always stress to the youth under me that it would serve them far better to listen to others and attempt to see their point of view rather than to attempt to defend their own.
> ...


 
I do too.


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## Tez3 (Apr 29, 2015)

“When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.” 
― Mark Twain


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 29, 2015)

kids.....know nothing
old people... know nothing
the age of people knowing anything is highly dependent on what age I am at the time


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## K-man (Apr 29, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
> ― Mark Twain


Love it!


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## K-man (Apr 29, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> kids.....know nothing
> old people... know nothing
> the age of people knowing anything is highly dependent on what age I am at the time


Then again, the older we get the more we don't know.



> "There are known knowns. These are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say, there are things that we know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know."
> 
> Donald Rumsfeld


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## Tez3 (Apr 29, 2015)

K-man said:


> Then again, the older we get the more we don't know.




but we realise that there is no shame in saying we don't know.


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## Steve (Apr 29, 2015)

Ha. You guys are hilarious.   Somebody admitting they don't know something???   Around here???  That's a good one.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ballen0351 (Apr 29, 2015)

Im good then Im not as old a PGSmith what are you like 100 and im not as young as Tez 29ish  SO I have then best of both worlds so that pretty much says I really am always "write"


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> “When I was a boy of 14, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be 21, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.”
> ― Mark Twain


That was Mark Train's experience, not everybody has the same experience as him.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 29, 2015)

Steve said:


> Ha. You guys are hilarious.   Somebody admitting they don't know something???   Around here???  That's a good one.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Q: How many martial artists does it take to change a lightbulb?

A: One hundred and one, one to change it and a hundred to say they could've done it better.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> That was Mark Train's experience, not everybody has the same experience as him.



You do know Mark Twain was a satirist


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> That was Mark Train's experience, not everybody has the same experience as him.



and that's your _express_ answer is it?


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## Jenna (Apr 30, 2015)

Do we have a definition or consensus what are we saying is old and what is young??

I am interested which category I am in ha.. 

I am happy if I can get to the point where I know what I do not know.  Most times I do not even know that much 

Jx


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## K-man (Apr 30, 2015)

Rest easy dear Jenna ... for me you are forever young.


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## Jenna (Apr 30, 2015)

@K-man Haha.. I hope that is not a bad thing lols..  anyway do not encourage me mister! if I believe I am "young" then I will only live up to the stereotypes we have of young = obnoxious know-it all.. Then again if you leave me to my devices I will default to being old and live up to the stereotype of BELIEVING I know most every thing if not ACTUALLY every thing 

----

Before I would argue with my son that he did not know best for him and that I knew better by virtue of having already experienced what he could only theorize.  As I found my self apologising to him ever more that the situation had transpired as HE reckoned and not as I had warned I concluded I had not the magick touch to read the future as I assumed.  

So I deem it is best when younger generation and older generation can see each other without the ego of each other tainting the image.. If a younger generation person can have it demonstrated that the older has only their interest at heart then it will help them moderate their behaviour.. if the older generation person likewise refuses to be affronted if the younger declines their wisdom then this itself is wisdom!

To imagine as an older generation person we cannot be taught by one younger is for us to miss a lot.. we miss a lot that help to also keep us fresh and novel and innovative and not static and stagnant always doing a thing the way it is "supposed" to be done etc.

When each of us truly appreciate the value in our own selves we can much better see the value in each and every other 

Jx


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Do we have a definition or consensus what are we saying is old and what is young??
> 
> I am interested which category I am in ha..
> 
> ...



please refer to post #11, I think I explained rather well.... and since it all depends on what age I am at the moment...well I believe you fall in the young category


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## Steve (Apr 30, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> please refer to post #11, I think I explained rather well.... and since it all depends on what age I am at the moment...well I believe you fall in the young category


Know-it-all.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 30, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Do we have a definition or consensus what are we saying is old and what is young??


Not really. Old and young is relative.


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## Steve (Apr 30, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Not really. Old and young is relative.


is that always true?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2015)

Steve said:


> is that always true?



not sure but I have old and your relatives, does that count


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 30, 2015)

Steve said:


> is that always true?



Usually it is. 10 can seem old from some perspectives and 70 can seem young from some perspectives.


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## Tez3 (Apr 30, 2015)

I feel young and I have the body of a twenty eight year old...his wife wants him back though. Still, as they say, you are only as old as the man you feel ( or woman depending on your preference)


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 30, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I feel young and I have the body of a twenty eight year old...his wife wants him back though. Still, as they say, you are only as old as the man you feel ( or woman depending on your preference)



You are young, relatively speaking.


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## K-man (Apr 30, 2015)

I was training this morning (Aikido) and my partner, whom I have trained with for nearly fifteen years, asked me not to do the takedowns as he was starting to have trouble getting back up. He is only 53. I have difficulty even remembering when I was 53.  

'Old' is not dependent on age.


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## Steve (Apr 30, 2015)

I read this thread, and for some reason, the phrase, "I greet you," comes to mind.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 30, 2015)

Steve said:


> I read this thread, and for some reason, the phrase, "I greet you," comes to mind.



Pray, do not mock me:
I am a very foolish fond old man, 
Fourscore and upward, not an hour more or less;
And, to deal plainly, 
I fear I am not in my perfect mind.


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## PhotonGuy (May 1, 2015)

K-man said:


> I was training this morning (Aikido) and my partner, whom I have trained with for nearly fifteen years, asked me not to do the takedowns as he was starting to have trouble getting back up. He is only 53. I have difficulty even remembering when I was 53.
> 
> 'Old' is not dependent on age.



Especially in the martial arts, your physical age is different from your chronological age.


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## pgsmith (May 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I feel young and I have the body of a twenty eight year old...his wife wants him back though. Still, as they say, you are only as old as the man you feel ( or woman depending on your preference)


  One of my Mum's favorite lines was "You're only as old as you feel, and that will depend on who's doing the feeling!"  She was in her mid 80's then.


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## mercmonster (May 1, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To be fair I've also encountered plenty of older folks who seem to think they know much more than they actually do.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's excellent advice for everybody, not just the young folks.



Well said!


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## PhotonGuy (May 1, 2015)

Well anyway, I don't think we should stereotype about people based on their age. And this goes for both young people and old people, we shouldn't stereotype based on age.


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## PhotonGuy (May 3, 2015)

So anyway this particular response is in direct response of what the OP said about being a Scoutmaster. This is a bit late but I am going to post it anyway. Pgsmith claims to have been a Scoutmaster and this is a quote from the original post. 


pgsmith said:


> A group of 20 or 30 teenage boys contains pretty much the sum of human knowledge within them. Just ask them, they'll tell you!


If you're talking about a group of 20 or 30 teenage boys in Boyscouts, if they hope to go far in Boyscouts they can't have that attitude. Its people who think they know it all who in fact usually don't know much and will not learn much because they already "know it all," as far as they're concerned. As they say you need to empty your cup so you have room to take in more knowledge. Anyway, in Boyscouts being an Eagle Scout is hard. There is so much you need to know and so many skills you've got to acquire and you're not going to get an Eagle badge without years of hard work and there is tons of learning you've got to do to get there. Surely, somebody who thinks they know the entire sum of human knowledge will not be an Eagle Scout. So those 20 or 30 teenage boys you worked with in Boyscouts, I doubt any of them were Eagle Scouts and I doubt you will ever find an Eagle Scout with a know it all attitude, because you can't have that kind of attitude and fulfill that kind of achievement.


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## Xue Sheng (May 4, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Well anyway, I don't think we should stereotype about people based on their age. And this goes for both young people and old people, we shouldn't stereotype based on age.



I'm guessing your young


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## pgsmith (May 4, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway this particular response is in direct response of what the OP said about being a Scoutmaster. This is a bit late but I am going to post it anyway. Pgsmith claims to have been a Scoutmaster and this is a quote from the original post.
> 
> If you're talking about a group of 20 or 30 teenage boys in Boyscouts, if they hope to go far in Boyscouts they can't have that attitude. Its people who think they know it all who in fact usually don't know much and will not learn much because they already "know it all," as far as they're concerned. As they say you need to empty your cup so you have room to take in more knowledge. Anyway, in Boyscouts being an Eagle Scout is hard. There is so much you need to know and so many skills you've got to acquire and you're not going to get an Eagle badge without years of hard work and there is tons of learning you've got to do to get there. Surely, somebody who thinks they know the entire sum of human knowledge will not be an Eagle Scout. So those 20 or 30 teenage boys you worked with in Boyscouts, I doubt any of them were Eagle Scouts and I doubt you will ever find an Eagle Scout with a know it all attitude, because you can't have that kind of attitude and fulfill that kind of achievement.



  WHOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHHHH ...........

  That was the sound of my entire original post flying right over your head. 

  However, this is an excellent example of exactly what I was talking about. You say you doubt any of them were Eagle Scouts. You also emphatically state that you can't have that kind of an attitude and fulfill that kind of achievement. These are pretty definite opinions on your part, things that I'd say you're pretty sure that you know. The reality is a little different than what you know however. Of those boys who were there when I first began my annual lecture on why it's important to understand other people's point of view, 12 of them went on to become Eagle Scouts. Four of them own their own businesses, three of them are now doctors, two are lawyers. As of my last count, 21 went on to graduate from college (there may be a few that didn't send me graduation notices).


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## PhotonGuy (May 4, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm guessing your young



Physically you could say I am. After all, martial arts doesn't keep you chronologically young but it keeps you physically young.


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## PhotonGuy (May 4, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> WHOOOOOOOOSSSSSHHHHHHHH ...........
> 
> That was the sound of my entire original post flying right over your head.


Now you know how I sometimes feel.



pgsmith said:


> Of those boys who were there when I first began my annual lecture on why it's important to understand other people's point of view, 12 of them went on to become Eagle Scouts.



But they weren't Eagle Scouts at the time, were they?


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## pgsmith (May 6, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Now you know how I sometimes feel.
> 
> But they weren't Eagle Scouts at the time, were they?



  Talking to you is about as frustrating as talking to my cat, although the cat tries harder to understand I think. Since I can't find an ignore function, I'm going to just try and not see any more of your posts. My forehead is becoming overly sore from smacking it too often!

  Good luck in your life. With your attitude, I think you'll need it.


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## PhotonGuy (May 6, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> Talking to you is about as frustrating as talking to my cat, although the cat tries harder to understand I think. Since I can't find an ignore function, I'm going to just try and not see any more of your posts. My forehead is becoming overly sore from smacking it too often!



As I said, now you know how I feel.


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## Xue Sheng (May 7, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Physically you could say I am. After all, martial arts doesn't keep you chronologically young but it keeps you physically young.



I'm still guessing you are chronologically, compared to me, since I said a few posts back "I am the standard" that and if I go by the picture of the homeless guy you posted awhile back that you claimed as you


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## Buka (May 7, 2015)

I knew a heck of a lot more about everything when I was younger.

Maybe it's something in the water.


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## PhotonGuy (May 7, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm still guessing you are chronologically, compared to me, since I said a few posts back "I am the standard" that and if I go by the picture of the homeless guy you posted awhile back that you claimed as you



Huh? I never posted a picture of a homeless guy. What post are you talking about?


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## Xue Sheng (May 7, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Huh? I never posted a picture of a homeless guy. What post are you talking about?



Sorry, I confused you with another poster


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## Tony Dismukes (May 7, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sorry, I confused you with another poster


Drop bear, perhaps? He posted a rather scruffy picture of himself a while back,


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## Xue Sheng (May 7, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Drop bear, perhaps? He posted a rather scruffy picture of himself a while back,



Yup


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## PhotonGuy (May 12, 2015)

OK well anyway, I will try to explain the point I was trying to make in response to the original post on this thread is this but first I must inform people reading this that if you keep reading you might get frustrated. Im telling you now so you might not end up like this.




Alright you've been warned.

Anyway, here is the point I am trying to make. About young people thinking they know more than they really do. We all get like that from time to time. Even the best of us will sometimes think we know more than we do and end up making mistakes as a result. Overconfidence can cause big downfalls and we all can get afflicted with it from time to time. Anyway, as far as young people thinking they know more than they do, you are not going to become an Eagle Scout with an overall attitude like that. Yes, even Eagle Scouts can make that mistake sometimes of being overconfident but overall you can't be like that if you're going to be an Eagle Scout. You will never make it that far. And, you also have to be a young person to be an Eagle Scout, young as in under 18. Therefore Eagle Scouts are examples of young people who aren't know it alls, or at least don't have that attitude overall.

Now, hopefully my point wont go whooshing over people's heads so I wont feel just like Sheldon did.


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## PhotonGuy (May 28, 2015)

So anyway, I would like to point out one mistake that young people sometimes make because they're young and they think they know more than they do is that they will follow the advice of an "older and wiser" person even if that advice is bad. After all, an "older and wiser" person is always right and what they say should be followed without question. Some of the biggest mistakes I made when I was younger was just that, to go along with what an "older and wiser" person said, even if it was wrong.


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## K-man (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, I would like to point out one mistake that young people sometimes make because they're young and they think they know more than they do is that they will follow the advice of an "older and wiser" person even if that advice is bad. After all, an "older and wiser" person is always right and what they say should be followed without question. Some of the biggest mistakes I made when I was younger was just that, to go along with what an "older and wiser" person said, even if it was wrong.


And you can have the opposite. One of my favourite students keeps asking, "but what if?" Normally that question is the precursor of him picking himself off the mat with the question answered.


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## Jenna (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, I would like to point out one mistake that young people sometimes make because they're young and they think they know more than they do is that they will follow the advice of an "older and wiser" person even if that advice is bad. After all, an "older and wiser" person is always right and what they say should be followed without question. Some of the biggest mistakes I made when I was younger was just that, to go along with what an "older and wiser" person said, even if it was wrong.




I think the best thing that any one of us can do to improve our selves is to accept -and it is a difficult idea to accept- that we are NOT ALWAYS CORRECT.

If we cannot accept this then all we have is the perpetual blind defence of our limitations.  There is not benefit to any of us in so doing.

Yes it was disconcerting when my son would begin to indicate to me my lacking knowledge.  It is ME who has had to change my position of "I am older so I am automatically conferred greater knowing".  Now actually it is a relief off of my shoulders that I do not have to know every thing. I am exonerated just like him when things do not go according to all wishes!  I have found though in acting to my supposed maturity and being first to swallow my pride and taking this position that he too is more likely to concede the gaps in his own understanding or knowledge  Jx


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## Xue Sheng (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> So anyway, I would like to point out one mistake that young people sometimes make because they're young and they think they know more than they do is that they will follow the advice of an "older and wiser" person even if that advice is bad. After all, an "older and wiser" person is always right and what they say should be followed without question. Some of the biggest mistakes I made when I was younger was just that, to go along with what an "older and wiser" person said, even if it was wrong.





> Some of the biggest mistakes I made when I was younger



What age might that be?



> older and wiser" person



and what age might they be?

since I don't think you are all that old now, I'm mostly curious at what age you label older and wiser

And age does not mean you are always right, it just means you've been around longer and might know a little more about it and depending on how much older, tend to be a tad bit less impulsive


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## PhotonGuy (May 29, 2015)

Jenna said:


> I think the best thing that any one of us can do to improve our selves is to accept -and it is a difficult idea to accept- that we are NOT ALWAYS CORRECT.


That's right, and it goes for older people as well as younger people.



Jenna said:


> If we cannot accept this then all we have is the perpetual blind defence of our limitations.  There is not benefit to any of us in so doing.
> 
> Yes it was disconcerting when my son would begin to indicate to me my lacking knowledge.  It is ME who has had to change my position of "I am older so I am automatically conferred greater knowing".  Now actually it is a relief off of my shoulders that I do not have to know every thing. I am exonerated just like him when things do not go according to all wishes!  I have found though in acting to my supposed maturity and being first to swallow my pride and taking this position that he too is more likely to concede the gaps in his own understanding or knowledge  Jx


As quoted by Bruce Lee even though he was not the first person to say this, "He who knows not and knows not that he knows not is a fool, shun him."


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## PhotonGuy (May 29, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> What age might that be?


Teens and twenties





Xue Sheng said:


> and what age might they be?


It varies, I would say maybe at the youngest forties with no upper age cutoff.



Xue Sheng said:


> since I don't think you are all that old now, I'm mostly curious at what age you label older and wiser


Its all relative. A ten year old you could say is older and supposedly wiser than a three year old. A ninety year old is older and supposedly wiser than a seventy year old.



Xue Sheng said:


> And age does not mean you are always right, it just means you've been around longer and might know a little more about it and depending on how much older, tend to be a tad bit less impulsive


The part about age not always meaning you're right, exactly. As for older people knowing more, that depends on what you do with yourself. And as for being less impulsive, I've known older people who are very impulsive and younger people who are not so impulsive.


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## Buka (May 29, 2015)

I detect a theme here.


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## Jenna (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> That's right, and it goes for older people as well as younger people.


Indeed.. that is my intended point 

If it is ok to ask I am interested to know how would you rate the advice / wisdom of your own parents or elders or those who had guardianship over you when you were younger?

Jx


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## PhotonGuy (May 29, 2015)

Jenna said:


> If it is ok to ask I am interested to know how would you rate the advice / wisdom of your own parents or elders or those who had guardianship over you when you were younger?
> 
> Jx



They were overall quite good but they made mistakes like everybody else. Sometimes, I would make the mistake of following their advice/wisdom when it was wrong.


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## Jenna (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> They were overall quite good but they made mistakes like everybody else. Sometimes, I would make the mistake of following their advice/wisdom when it was wrong.


That is not a mistake of yours, you were just not to know and it is no fault of yours.. Though perhaps by the same token nor was it a mistake of theirs and no one is culpable?  None of us can know how the future will go for certain, yes?? Perhaps then what matters is the spirit in which the advice is given? and likewise the spirit in which it is received?  what do you think? Jx


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## PhotonGuy (May 29, 2015)

Jenna said:


> That is not a mistake of yours, you were just not to know and it is no fault of yours.. Though perhaps by the same token nor was it a mistake of theirs and no one is culpable?  None of us can know how the future will go for certain, yes?? Perhaps then what matters is the spirit in which the advice is given? and likewise the spirit in which it is received?  what do you think? Jx


There were times that I should've known better and I should've taken proper action to make sure things were done differently. I believe in being responsible for myself and for my own choices and in the past I've gone along with bad choices that haunt me to this day. I don't particularly agree with B.F. Skinner.


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## Jenna (May 29, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> There were times that I should've known better and I should've taken proper action to make sure things were done differently. I believe in being responsible for myself and for my own choices and in the past I've gone along with bad choices that haunt me to this day. I don't particularly agree with B.F. Skinner.


Yes you are responsible for your self that is how it is.. yet you cannot blame your self for bad choices.. did you take that choice knowing that it would not work out? no you took it because AT THAT TIME it seemed like the best thing, right?  Not your fault.. nor the fault of any one else.. you may not agree with Skinner and but our behaviours -and decisions arising- are almost always deferred to our social and familial conditioning, genetics and predispositions.. still the upshot is that there is no blame to be apportioned either on you or on your would-be advisors.. That is my opinion.. what do you say?

Anyway for what it is worth, I hear what you are saying.. I do not disagree with you on any principle you seem to espouse.. Take care.. Jx


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## PhotonGuy (May 30, 2015)

Well according to Skinner free will is an illusion. Every choice we make is a result of our genetics and our environment. I don't agree with that. If that were true we would not be responsible for our actions as we never make choices of our own. Some of the bad choices I made I didn't really want to make but I went along with them anyway because I was following the decisions of people who were "older and wiser." Anyway, this episode of this old cartoon called Bravestarr more or less makes the point Im making. This particular episode is very deep and I would say is suited for adults as well as children. If you don't want to watch the whole episode you can skip to the part about the moral lesson which is at 17:27


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## elder999 (May 30, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Anyway, this episode of this old cartoon called Bravestarr more or less makes the point Im making. This particular episode is very deep and I would say is suited for adults as well as children. If you don't want to watch the whole episode you can skip to the part about the moral lesson which is at 17:27


 
This explains sooo much.....


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## drop bear (May 30, 2015)

elder999 said:


> This explains sooo much.....



Bravestar was the Nietzsche of the 80s cartoon world.


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## pgsmith (Jun 1, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Yes you are responsible for your self that is how it is.. yet you cannot blame your self for bad choices.. did you take that choice knowing that it would not work out? no you took it because AT THAT TIME it seemed like the best thing, right?  Not your fault.. nor the fault of any one else.. you may not agree with Skinner and but our behaviours -and decisions arising- are almost always deferred to our social and familial conditioning, genetics and predispositions.. still the upshot is that there is no blame to be apportioned either on you or on your would-be advisors.. That is my opinion.. what do you say?
> 
> Anyway for what it is worth, I hear what you are saying.. I do not disagree with you on any principle you seem to espouse.. Take care.. Jx



  I can't see his original post as I have him on ignore (thankfully!). However, I have to take exception (minor) to your statement here Jenna.
  Fault and blame absolutely need to be laid at the feet of those that are to blame. It is what is done with that blame that is important. If no one is at fault then nobody failed, and humans can learn quite a lot from their failures. The best thing, in my opinion, is to figure out what is the root of the problem, and then you can determine how best to avoid having that happen again. If someone gives you advice that turns out to be in error, then blaming the person that gave you the advice is understandable. However, to stop there and decide that you can avoid future problems by avoiding advice is fruitless and irrational. The better course would be to determine why the advice given was in error in order to avoid the same problem in the future.


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## Jenna (Jun 2, 2015)

pgsmith said:


> I can't see his original post as I have him on ignore (thankfully!). However, I have to take exception (minor) to your statement here Jenna.
> Fault and blame absolutely need to be laid at the feet of those that are to blame. It is what is done with that blame that is important. If no one is at fault then nobody failed, and humans can learn quite a lot from their failures. The best thing, in my opinion, is to figure out what is the root of the problem, and then you can determine how best to avoid having that happen again. If someone gives you advice that turns out to be in error, then blaming the person that gave you the advice is understandable. However, to stop there and decide that you can avoid future problems by avoiding advice is fruitless and irrational. The better course would be to determine why the advice given was in error in order to avoid the same problem in the future.


That is perfectly right you take exception where you feel.. Minor or major I value your thoughts Paul and I am always grateful for your discussion whether it is to agree or disagree.. it is your courtesy in how you do it I appreciate x 

I read what you are saying Paul and I agree for some one to avoid any and all advice after a bad call cannot ever be compeletely in their own self-interests yes - and which does appear to be the case with PhotonGuy.  

I feel perhaps though we have a different view of apportioning of fault and blame? Some one may be at fault -responsible- for an event having happened / bad advice having been given yes I agree and these errors can as you say be learned from and but for me, to apportion blame to them would be 1. to speak without full facts and 2. ultimately bringing little or no benefit.

What I was seeking to get to through all of that, though I think I dropped the ball on that discussion or felt PhotonGuy was too singleminded for it at this time, was to enquire of him about the particular circumstance that has him seeming so personally galled that he has developed around his vexation this stance regarding in particular older -supposedly wiser- people (elders of his?) which I feel he is generalising to encompass ALL older -supposedly wiser- people.. and which, as you can see, colours his view of all of us.

Why do I care about this? Only because none of us -me included- ever progress toward our own enlightenments while we maintain such dogma as those  And why do I care about that?  Well what else are we here for except to guide each other towards the Divine 

Thank you again for your courtesy I am grateful Jxx


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## pgsmith (Jun 2, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Why do I care about this? Only because none of us -me included- ever progress toward our own enlightenments while we maintain such dogma as those  And why do I care about that? Well what else are we here for except to guide each other towards the Divine



   I liked that statement so much, I felt it needed to be repeated!   

  Thanks Jenna!


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