# Use of locks in grappling situations



## shesulsa (Aug 8, 2005)

How many of you Hapkidoin engage in ground fighting?  Do you apply your joint lock knowledge there?


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## kenpohack (Aug 8, 2005)

I have a first black in Hapkido and I have extensively cross-trained with friends in bjj. It is next to impossible to use a hapkido joint locks on the ground because bjj fighters and skilled grapplers don't give you much of an opportunity to lock their joints. 

In grappling, most of the submission holds are the byproduct of gaining proper position on the opponent and using the whole body as a fulcrum to lock the joint.

Most grapplers don't give you their arms, elbows, or wrists. Furthermore, joint locks are difficult to pull off without a stable base, which is nonexistent if you find yourself on you back.

I have seen joint locks used as takedown defenses, but it takes perfect timing to pull it off.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 9, 2005)

I have used knee bars, arm bars, chokes, wrist locks, and ankle locks on the ground.  All of those are joint locks.


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## Mike-IHF (Aug 9, 2005)

Kenpohack,





> I have a first black in Hapkido and I have extensively cross-trained with friends in bjj. It is next to impossible to use a hapkido joint locks on the ground because bjj fighters and skilled grapplers don't give you much of an opportunity to lock their joints.
> 
> In grappling, most of the submission holds are the byproduct of gaining proper position on the opponent and using the whole body as a fulcrum to lock the joint.
> 
> ...


 
In my opinion thats not true. The one position alot of ground grapplers do is try to get you in the mounted position, to either punch or choke. Which means their arms and hands are available. And actually, there is very little difference between laying on your back, and standing up. I was just going over these type of techniques with my students the other day. First I let them put me in standing basic grabs, and chokes. Then I showed them the exact same defenses from the same grabs, but while they had me in the mounted position. And they worked the same. Now, I used the mounted position as an example. I'm not saying that's the only position ground grapplers use, but it is one of the most common. So that's why I covered that area with my students.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2005)

Mike-IHF said:
			
		

> Kenpohack,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good post and excellent points! :asian:   I do not study Hapkido, but I have had this similar discussion with others in Kenpo, regarding the use of our techniques while on the ground.  It can be a bit difficult to imagine but with the right guidance and some adjustments, aspects of the tech. can be applied.  The same can be also said of the BJJ techniques.  With some slight changes, many things that are done on the ground can also be applied while standing.

Great discussion!!

Mike


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## theletch1 (Aug 9, 2005)

We've done some of the same training with aikido techniques and had the same results that were discussed as Mike-IHF.  Often times it simply comes down to catching your opponent with momentary tunnel vision on one aspect of your body and effecting the lock.  I don't think the original post in the thread was regarding trained BJJ folks though, but was more aimed at one of the "What happens when you fall down in a fight" kinda things.


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## dosanmartialartschool (Sep 9, 2005)

Well maybe you don't watch enough...in MMA, NHB, BJJ, etc., HKD (and Aikido) joint locks DO work! Royce Gracie just subbed Akebono with one! He had Akebono in an Omo Plata, and it was NOT working, so he did a basick HKD/AKD wrist lock and made him tap! I have also seen this done many times in Brazil, at the Mundials (Worlds), etc.


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