# Is this illegal?



## Headhunter (Sep 21, 2018)

just wondering if this is illegal in gi Bjj.

You're in someone's guard and you pull the collar across the throat then stand in the guard and push down on the throat. Basically a collar choke but standing over them. Now this is a move I was taught in class and one the head instructor used when I rolled with him so as I was concerned it was a legal technique. So what night during the last few minutes of rolling I used it on this guy. He said nothing when I started to apply it. Then he tapped and started saying oh yeah well that's an illegal move. I just shrugged and said okay sorry and moved on. 

So anyone know if it really is illegal or was the guy just salty that he got tapped? If it was illegal then fair enough my bad no one ever told me it was illegal when I was taught it but hey what do I know?


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2018)

It’s totally legal in BJJ. Your partner was either confused or just making excuses.


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## Hanzou (Sep 21, 2018)

Your partner was salty. Unfortunately people still have egos while rolling.


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## Headhunter (Sep 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It’s totally legal in BJJ. Your partner was either confused or just making excuses.


Thought so. It was probably because I did it in like 20 seconds. We started in guard. I knew he had a hard guard to escape so went straight for the submission instead of wasting time trying to pass


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2018)

It is a good way to get armbarred if you're not careful.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2018)

Something to remember is that the person on bottom will usually not have to tap to that choke (which is called an up-down choke BTW) unless they fail to respect the danger of it until too late. The main  point of the choke is to force the opponent to open his guard in order to defend.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2018)

Steve said:


> It is a good way to get armbarred if you're not careful.


It's usually pretty safe _*if*_ you are careful. You have to be prepared to take your arm back as soon as your opponent opens his guard.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2018)

Also whenever that is done to me, it's uncomfortable but I don't think I've ever felt like it was a legit choke . All you have to do to defend is turn your head.  

In other news, if your game centers on maintaining a closed guard at all costs, you beed to open up your game.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2018)

Steve said:


> Also whenever that is done to me, it's uncomfortable but I don't think I've ever felt like it was a legit choke . All you have to do to defend is turn your head.
> 
> In other news, if your game centers on maintaining a closed guard at all costs, you beed to open up your game.


If the choke is done properly, turning your head won’t be a sufficient defense. If you defend early, it’s possible to counter by extending the hips and hand fighting. If you’re late, you may have to open your guard.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2018)

I don't think its ever been done effectively to me then.  If you turn your head to the side, toward the guys hand, away from the choke, half of your neck would be safe on the ground.  I've never seen someone choked that way. 

And sure, hand fighting and creating space with your hips too.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2018)

Steve said:


> I don't think its ever been done effectively to me then.  If you turn your head to the side, toward the guys hand, away from the choke, half of your back would be safe on the ground.  I've never seen someone choked that way.
> 
> And sure, hand fighting and creating space with your hips too.


Headhunter’s description sounds like he may have left out part of the technique.

In your opponent’s closed guard, grab the left side of his lapel with your right hand, 4 fingers in. Leave just enough slack so you can cross the lapel over to the right side of their throat. Control their right lapel with your left hand, about 1/3 way down their lapel. Cover your right hand with their right lapel (that makes it harder to peel your hand off). Stand in their guard, thrusting your right hand down while pulling up with your left. (Thus “up-down” choke.) This gives you choking pressure for the arteries on both sides.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Headhunter’s description sounds like he may have left out part of the technique.
> 
> In your opponent’s closed guard, grab the left side of his lapel with your right hand, 4 fingers in. Leave just enough slack so you can cross the lapel over to the right side of their throat. Control their right lapel with your left hand, about 1/3 way down their lapel. Cover your right hand with their right lapel (that makes it harder to peel your hand off). Stand in their guard, thrusting your right hand down while pulling up with your left. (Thus “up-down” choke.) This gives you choking pressure for the arteries on both sides.


Ah So a proper cross collar choke.  Got it.   I was envisioning something else .


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 21, 2018)

Steve said:


> Ah So a proper cross collar choke.  Got it.   I was envisioning something else .


It’s closer to a sliding collar choke than a cross collar choke. I wouldn’t try a cross collar from inside someone’s guard.


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## Headhunter (Sep 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Something to remember is that the person on bottom will usually not have to tap to that choke (which is called an up-down choke BTW) unless they fail to respect the danger of it until too late. The main  point of the choke is to force the opponent to open his guard in order to defend.


Meh well I've tapped at least 3 people with It


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 22, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Meh well I've tapped at least 3 people with It


I’ve tapped people with it too. If they had known better, they would have opened their guard to counter it. Usually only lower belts will make that mistake.


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## drop bear (Sep 23, 2018)

I have tapped people with mount. Doesn't make it a submission.


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## Danny T (Sep 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I have tapped people with mount. Doesn't make it a submission.


LOL. 
I agree that mount in of its self, usually anyway, isn't a submission.
However if one tapped, one submitted and that would be a submission.


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