# Bigger guns, smaller puff puff



## Zero (Jun 30, 2007)

Who out there mixes in with their karate and martial arts (whatever style) weight/strength training and to what degree - and what are your thoughts on this?

For the last 12 months I have put a lot of focus into weightlifting and while I have always done this quite a lot to imporve my martial ability I have kind of gone nuts on it, using supplements as much as possible also.  My skills etc in no way have suffered as I have kept up my bag work and sparring but I have put on a lot of muscle and size and as a result find myself with increased power and strength.

I have found this to be of great use in mixed fighting where grappling and striking is allowed but also my punches and kicks alone also have more impact behind them.  However, where in general I find I can finish a fight a lot quicker I am now worried as my cardio ability has lagged enormously.  Two years ago I used to be able to enter knock out competitons and go two or even three different fights in a row with very little down time - I realise that ability is now long gone!  My biggest concern is when I come against someone with my own skill level and strength or size but has more gas in the tank or someone who can evade me until my legs are custard.

Martial arts is an amazing thing as it is so hard to get that fine balance between explosive power, strength, speed, stamina and skill/balance/flexibility - it's the stamina I must now regain!!  But in all honesty I have been trying to get the perfect package of both strength and fitness.

Are there any others in this position? Do yo use any particular training split? Such as what mix of skills-fight training/weights and running/sparring?

Also, when 2 opponents of similar skill/ability face off and one has superior fitness but one has superior strength (with the ability to implement it!), who do you put the money on?


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## MA-Caver (Jun 30, 2007)

Zero, there's not going to be ONE set routine, method, techinque of training that's going to suit everyone. Yours may have to be individually tailored to meet your needs, wants, body specifics and everything else that is YOU. What works good for me may not work good for bdand or Drac or anyone else on this forum and vice-versa. 
A lot of it will be similar but the effects will be different from person to person. 
Remember that there are several different types of weight-lifting and they serve different purposes. There's mass building like the Schwarzenegger types that just build up a lot of mass but only moderate strength gains, by this I mean they are stronger but not much, they've increased the size of their muscles but not the proportional strength in the muscles. 
There's endurance lifting/building which doesn't provide too much more mass but allows one to continue for longer durations. For me this is the ideal training for any martial artist. We look at well known MA-ist like Lee, Norris, Parker, Gracie and so on and see that they not only worked on their MA techniques but on their physiques as well. But they didn't go to the extreme, they just built up enough mass and strength to accomplish their goals. 
You need to define your goals and find a good weight trainer that'll listen to them and know specifically what you need to do to accomplish those goals and know how to tell you when to stop or level off and continue with those weights in mind.


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## Blindside (Jun 30, 2007)

> We look at well known MA-ist like Lee, Norris, Parker, Gracie and so on and see that they not only worked on their MA techniques but on their physiques as well.


 
Parker worked on his physique?  Which Parker are you talking about?


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## chinto (Jun 30, 2007)

Zero said:


> Who out there mixes in with their karate and martial arts (whatever style) weight/strength training and to what degree - and what are your thoughts on this?
> 
> For the last 12 months I have put a lot of focus into weightlifting and while I have always done this quite a lot to imporve my martial ability I have kind of gone nuts on it, using supplements as much as possible also. My skills etc in no way have suffered as I have kept up my bag work and sparring but I have put on a lot of muscle and size and as a result find myself with increased power and strength.
> 
> ...


 

power and muscle are good things. muscle can be good 'armor' to a point to, but speed and flexibility are at least as important!

cardio is more importint for sport then on the street usualy, but a good thing to have.  like they said  "find the balance!


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## Karatedrifter7 (Jul 3, 2007)

Do alot of jumping rope. I do about 700 cut them into 100 a piece. squat jumps, jumping jacks, do stuff that involves lunges, maybe drag yourself across the basketball court and back. Then alternate it with resistance and days where you do low impact. I am a PT at the YMCA out here, If you were in NM, I would tailor something for you that would also involve flexiability.


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## Zero (Jul 3, 2007)

Thanks for that karatedrifter!

I am now thinking about my faithful old skipping rope in the cupboard that never let me down in the past for getting the fitness up.  I will take him down and start using him again in the mornings and have decided to throw in 3 50 minute runs a week in the park.  I would like to get more swim time in too for the lung capacity - but hell knows where I can find the time for that also!  Hopefully the flexibility won't be an issue as I do a lot of kicking training and kinetic stretching and afterwards do cool down stretches.

I'll let you know if I can get the cardio up to an acceptable fight level while still retaining the size/ - or at least same strength levels.

Cheers!


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## Karatedrifter7 (Jul 4, 2007)

Hey great, let me know how it goes.


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## Boomer (Jul 5, 2007)

I had a similar problem where I went crazy on the weights, supplements, etc.  I swelled up from 183lbs to 218lbs.  It did feel great to have all that power, but I just didn't feel natural.  I thougt maybe I'd get used to it, but seriously, I didn't until I changed my regimen and dropped to 195.  I thikn the key is finding a happy medium where you can exist between both the musclehead world and the martial art world.

Now I focus on core strength especially, and everything else is secondary.  I love the cable racks, where you can do the "wood chopper" torso twist to hit those oblique abs.  To keep up the power, then, I immediately use the same weight and practise right crosses as a super set.

I think the key is to know what you want, and to make a plan to get there, adjusting all along the way as needed.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 5, 2007)

You need to have *balance* in your workout so that you have strength, stamina and speed to complement your technique and skill.  If you are out of balance then you may run into some issues.  Every now and then I run into a really strong guy with weak cardio when rolling or sparring.  As soon as I realize that I make him work hard and gas and then I take advantage of their week cardio.  I use the same approach with someone who has strong cardio but is physically weaker.  In that case I pressure then and use my strength advantage to inflict pain or a submission.  *Balance is the key* find that and you will be *really effective*!


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## shesulsa (Jul 5, 2007)

I have heard before that as you build muscle mass, you have to work very hard to increase your stamina to match your strength and that the key is to have a well-balanced workout (as Brian so aptly put it) and focus on a long-term goal rather than short-term muscle gains.

If you can speak with a fitness trainer for an evaluation, tell him/her your story and I'd almost wager they'd advise you, for your goals, to lift for maintenance only and work cardio hard until your stamina comes up to speed.  At that point you can reassess and look at future goals.

Just a suggestion, FWIW.


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## chinto (Oct 11, 2007)

shesulsa said:


> I have heard before that as you build muscle mass, you have to work very hard to increase your stamina to match your strength and that the key is to have a well-balanced workout (as Brian so aptly put it) and focus on a long-term goal rather than short-term muscle gains.
> 
> If you can speak with a fitness trainer for an evaluation, tell him/her your story and I'd almost wager they'd advise you, for your goals, to lift for maintenance only and work cardio hard until your stamina comes up to speed. At that point you can reassess and look at future goals.
> 
> Just a suggestion, FWIW.


 
YES, but you have to maintain  a good muscle mass ratio as well. As we age the ability to hold on to muscle mass diminishes, and we have to work harder to hold on to what was maintained with out effort before.
so weight training and kata work together to maintain that muscle mass as we grow older. 

I agree that Balance is the key... to much of one or the other may not be optimal, but if a choice of only kata or only weights were all that was there I would choose kata.  ( but I do some weight training as I do not have to make that choice!)


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## Blotan Hunka (Oct 11, 2007)

Think long term. What can you do/maintain throughout your life? Most pros cycle their workouts to peak out at competition time. But peaking comes at a cost to your body over the years. Look at all the older pro athletes and the stories of battered bodies, replaced joints and so on. Nothing wrong with improving your body, but think about how you are going to maintain fitness into old age rather than peak out at a young age and suffer down the road.


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## Zero (Oct 12, 2007)

Thanks for those comments.

It's been a couple of months of fitness training and cardio (much more sparring and hill running) and although I have shed a couple of pounds of muscle and am a bit smaller I have still held onto the same strength levels on the weights.

Although the focus has not been so much on the weightlifting, as a result though I am a lot fitter and feeling much more able as a martial artist.  I will still keep up the heavy weights as I have won some previous fights due to much superior strength over opponents but now it is nice to have some gas left in the tank when coming up against similar fighters.

Cheers


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## chinto (Nov 2, 2007)

Zero said:


> Thanks for those comments.
> 
> It's been a couple of months of fitness training and cardio (much more sparring and hill running) and although I have shed a couple of pounds of muscle and am a bit smaller I have still held onto the same strength levels on the weights.
> 
> ...


remember that a weight lifters mass is diferent then a laborors really.. if you say were moving 100wt/90kelo bags of grain all day your muscle mass and such woud be diferent then say the guy who does bench press and such after working all day in an office.  a lot of it has to do with how often and long you  move a given weight every day or say every 3 days!


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