# I've hit a wall and I need advice.



## TheDonster (Dec 19, 2006)

Okey dokey, well my situation is I originally started training in February 2003, trained for that whole year and thanks to circumstances which I regret, I did not continue training in 2004.  I achieved the rank of 8th kyu after about 3 months I think.

So I started again right at the end of 2005, and all the way through 2006.  I have been determined all year to get right back into it and finally progress and move right on, however I feel as though I am not nearly as good at the end of this year as I was at the end of 2003.

This is incredibly frustrating as while I have definitely improved as far as re-learning everything (and learning a couple of new things) is concerned, a lot of things still feel unnatural to me and some things I just can't 'get'.

For example, at our last night of training for this year last night, we were working primarily with the hanbo.  The last technique we worked through was stepping forwards + left 45 degrees and striking to the hip joint with the end of the hanbo, then using the hanbo and your opponent's arm to push them away.

Now, I KNOW that you're supposed to use your legs and your body to do everything.  I know this, and it is something that I am very conscious of.  The problem is, is with a lot of things I just can't seem to actually do it.

I think this has been my biggest problem with my training this year.  I have been (in the last few weeks) working hard on my kihon happo in my own time to try and 'restore' the full use of my body.

I am also planning on working on a single-handed striking technique we were using last night (right hand at end of hanbo to your right side, spinning your wrist to strike.  I don't know the Japanese name) except working on it with the Bo per the advice of one of our Senseis.  I felt a difference in using the hanbo with this technique after a few minutes polishing it with the bo, but still did not feel it was quite right.

Can anyone give me any more advice?


Also, my Sensei (the big man who actually runs the whole lot of local dojos) said that I'm trying too hard.  Anyone able to sort of elaborate on this for me?  I'm a bit slow at times and last night I was way too tired after an early start at work to think too much about it.

Thanks all


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## bydand (Dec 19, 2006)

You have the same problem I do when it comes to this.  While I love working with weapons it points out every single little flaw in your technique and magnifies them.  When he said you are trying to hard, I used to hear that alot as well.  I would think he means you are thinking it through in too fine of detail and not letting it "flow".   This is a difficult level because mentally you know how you are supposed to move (you've seen it hundred if not thousands of times from your instructors), but it just isn't there yet.  My advice is the same as I was given from somebody years back, "_relax, relax, relax.  Get the basic movement, then work on filling in the details_."  works for me and I still have to tell myself that every single time I train.  It is like a painting, you don't start out doing the Mona Lisa, you know how it is supposed to be, just do the outline and THEN fill in the holes.

Hope this makes at least a bit of sense.


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## TheDonster (Dec 20, 2006)

It makes perfect sense, my friend, I appreciate all advice (as long as it's constructive and actually relevant of course ).

I just got home from work and I'm about to go outside and work on that particular strike we were doing last night with the hanbo, bo and bokken so I get a different feel for it.  I'm hoping that will help me work out the basic movement because I'll be using different weights and lengths.

I also need to work on strikes with my bokken.  For some reason they've lost their power from a couple of months ago.


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## Infinite (Dec 20, 2006)

I have learned two things when it comes to making a particular movement natural.

First I do it as slow as I possibly can a few times. I mean painfully slow which helps me identify when my balance is shifting and what my body "WANTS" to do to compensate for the movement.

Second I speed it up and don't think about it at all. I just simply execute sort of think it through once and then close my eyes. I open them and pick my point of reference and strike. Now I don't do this lightning fast or even at the speed I would use in an actual striking situation. I like to call it the walking version of the strike. 

You sort of just let your body move at a comfortable speed to complete the manuver. 

What this allows me to do is then slow it down again and see the difference between the slow and the quicker vesion. I then approximate the difference and keep refining until I feel I'm matching the goal of the move.

THEN I either get a mirror or a person or an instructor and demonstraight the move. Clarify where I found my weaknesses and strenghts and get their advice.

The first time I did all this the instructor told me I was good to go. Turns out I was doing it slightly different than everyone else. So I asked him and he said, "Your arms are longer and therefore you have to angle a bit more to get the right leverage."

So I'm not sure if your experience level is such that you have done all this and still hit the wall. I'm really just a newbie when it comes to MA but I know it helped me out a lot.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 20, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> Can anyone give me any more advice?



Well, I will offer my 2 cents worth.  First thing, keep in mind that weapons will magnify issues in your taijutsu.   Also, there are several exercises that teaches proper body movement.  The first and foremost would be the Sanshin Katas, maybe your instructor has shown them to you.  You should do them frequently.  Maybe ask him to review them again.  I know for me in the beginning it was hard for me to remember them.  I still have confusion with pairing the names with the appropriate kata for a couple of them.  



TheDonster said:


> Also, my Sensei (the big man who actually runs the whole lot of local dojos) said that I'm trying too hard.  Anyone able to sort of elaborate on this for me?



He may mean over analysis and maybe going too hard on yourself.  Try not to analyze in class, reserve that for after class.  I usually spend the after class ride and the next morning working the previous class through my mind.


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## Bigshadow (Dec 20, 2006)

Infinite said:


> First I do it as slow as I possibly can a few times.
> 
> THEN I either get a mirror or a person or an instructor and demonstraight the move.



Excellent advice!


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## Bigshadow (Dec 20, 2006)

Oh, get used to that feeling of not feeling up to par.  Training is like that.  There will be plateaus.  Then one day you will realize that what you thought was difficult, you don't even think about it anymore and then further realize that you cannot really remember when that transition happened.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Well, I will offer my 2 cents worth. First thing, keep in mind that weapons will magnify issues in your taijutsu. Also, there are several exercises that teaches proper body movement. The first and foremost would be the Sanshin Katas, maybe your instructor has shown them to you. You should do them frequently. Maybe ask him to review them again. I know for me in the beginning it was hard for me to remember them. I still have confusion with pairing the names with the appropriate kata for a couple of them.
> 
> 
> 
> He may mean over analysis and maybe going too hard on yourself. Try not to analyze in class, reserve that for after class. I usually spend the after class ride and the next morning working the previous class through my mind.


 

Definately good advice.  Follow the above and relax and just train. (without to much thought)  Follow what the instructor is teaching and try and replicate.  Then after class either go through the material in your head or write down some notes.  Finally if you have questions ask them at the next class to get some feedback.

It is also good to start getting some of Soke's books and DVD's for referance material.  You can use these to look at during those in between class times when you wish to see how a technique can be done.  

Good luck!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 20, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> Also, my Sensei (the big man who actually runs the whole lot of local dojos) said that I'm trying too hard. Anyone able to sort of elaborate on this for me?


 
My guess is, like a lot of people, you're trying to minimize the movements prematurely. An interesting thing to notice is that children tend to exaggerate all movements they're shown (which is what you should do at first) while most adults tend to strive to scale things down.


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## morph4me (Dec 20, 2006)

I remember reading something about training plateaus that helped put things into perspective for me. Plateaus show you are improving, that you're recognizing that what you're doing isn't quite right, if you weren't improving you wouldn't realize that you were doing something wrong. Patience and practice will get you through, until the next plateau, which will seem longer.


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## TheDonster (Dec 20, 2006)

I appreciate all the advice!  What you guys are saying makes perfect sense to me (especially about plateaus - I've been playing drums for 10 years and I've found a few along the way!).  I wish I had the time and money to be able to go to training twice a week but unfortunately I don't - once a week will have to do!


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## mdamignani (Dec 20, 2006)

Go back to the basics.  You need to lay the foundation before you can build on it.
Matthew Damignani


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## Don Roley (Dec 21, 2006)

Advice? Drop the weapon. Go back to san shin and do it slowly as others have suggested. After a while, you can go back to the weapon.


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## TheDonster (Dec 21, 2006)

When you say the sanshin, do you mean where you basically move one leg forward, then back, then the other forward and back, and so on?  No arm movements, just keeping a deep posture and moving your legs?

If so, I know what you mean and that's a good idea  otherwise you've lost me 

I'm also going to be working on my Kihon Happo as deep and low as I possibly can (someone posted a link to an article by a French Sensei explaining to have your knee above your big toe in Ichimongi No Kamai and I've given that a go today and REALLY felt it...)

I think I've got the right idea to get things working, it's just a matter of me practising as much as I can now on the absolute basics.

That doesn't worry me at all, I'm all about having solid foundations.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 21, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> When you say the sanshin, do you mean where you basically move one leg forward, then back, then the other forward and back, and so on?  No arm movements, just keeping a deep posture and moving your legs?



Sanshin is more than that.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2006)

I am not a ninjutsu practitioner and I don't even play one on TV and the person I am about to quote was not a ninjutsu person either but it may apply.



> After a while, the learning will become easier. Sometimes a student feels good at first, then after a few months, some may begin to feel as if they are not improving and lose their patience. Realize that this also may be a sign of improvement. Be patient and in time you will work through it. Beginners go through many stages, let each stage be a learning experience.  -- Tung Ying Chieh


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## TheDonster (Dec 21, 2006)

Cryozombie said:


> Sanshin is more than that.




Why bother saying that if you're not going to offer a more in-depth explanation, I made it perfectly clear that I was trying to CLARIFY the concept and you've done nothing.  Please don't waste my time again by making useless comments.


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## Don Roley (Dec 21, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> Why bother saying that if you're not going to offer a more in-depth explanation, I made it perfectly clear that I was trying to CLARIFY the concept and you've done nothing.  Please don't waste my time again by making useless comments.



It is not useless.

There are certain things that you can't teach people over the internet. The full meaning of san shin is one of them. By telling you that san shin was not just what you thought it was, John gave you enough to realize that you should be looking for more. Your next step should have been to ask your teacher about san shin instead of reacting as you did.

John is a very valuable member here and you just insulted him and acted like things should be handed to you on a silver platter. If you want people to help you, you are going to have to change your that attitude of yours and be ready to do some work on your own.


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## robertmrivers (Dec 21, 2006)

I have no idea what that person is talking about...on the odd chance he meant san_ch_in... you're talking karate to a bujinkan practitioner...he probably doesn't know what that is.

Back to the topic... I know you have heard this a lot, but the fix is to do it over and over until it becomes natural. When you hit a wall, there are a few things that can inspire and a few things that can disappoint. 

Your plight falls in the inspire category. You are a part of an old tradition. This tradition has been handed through the generations. You have to realize that every person since the dawn of that art's creation has had the same problem you are having, yet the system still exists and people all over the world still practice it. Most traditional martial arts are extremely detail oriented and require a lot of time to master. The issue is that your brain and your body are in conflict. Martial arts teach you to go against animalistic instincts (like backing up when scared) and relearn time proven combat tactics (like moving forward when attacked). 

You think you have spent a lot of time, but in the grand scheme you're still in the beginning stages. The first degree black belt in Japanese is "Shodan". This means first level. So, you see, everything between now and when you are finally ready for your black belt (you will know undoubtedly know when you are ready) is simply laying the foundation for you to reach the first level...not mastery. 

Hope it helps

Rob

Robert M. Rivers
Shin Dojo
www.virginiakempo.com


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## TheDonster (Dec 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> It is not useless.
> 
> There are certain things that you can't teach people over the internet. The full meaning of san shin is one of them. By telling you that san shin was not just what you thought it was, John gave you enough to realize that you should be looking for more. Your next step should have been to ask your teacher about san shin instead of reacting as you did.
> 
> John is a very valuable member here and you just insulted him and acted like things should be handed to you on a silver platter. If you want people to help you, you are going to have to change your that attitude of yours and be ready to do some work on your own.




I don't go back to training until January 9, so I can't talk to my Senseis about it until then.  I am more than happy to look for more information but I am sure that there is some stuff I can be told over this forum - moreso than "there's more than that".

I don't expect things to be handed to me on a silver platter, but I don't expect people to waste my time either.  If he had said "There's more to it than that, but you would need to speak to your teacher about it" then I would have been happy with the response.  Instead, he responded simply as "There's more to it than that", implying that I'm an idiot, and not providing any resolution at all.


I do plenty of work on my own.  I have asked for small pieces of advice from people I train with, I have observed the things they do and I have spent a lot of my own time (even closing the door at work when it's quiet) trying to work things out.  I was simply looking for a bit more information to help me out and complement what I do know.


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## TheDonster (Dec 21, 2006)

robertmrivers said:


> I have no idea what that person is talking about...on the odd chance he meant san_ch_in... you're talking karate to a bujinkan practitioner...he probably doesn't know what that is.



I'm no authority on Japanese martial art history or anything as such.  When I first started training 3 years ago before I took my break, one of the instructors went through the motion I described above, telling us to practise it making sure you keep your head at the same height.  I am fairly certain he described it as being, or being part of san-shin movement or something.



> Back to the topic... I know you have heard this a lot, but the fix is to do it over and over until it becomes natural. When you hit a wall, there are a few things that can inspire and a few things that can disappoint.


I agree.  Sometimes it also helps to hear people's advice and encouragement that you are making progress, even if you know that hitting a wall is a sign of improvement...



> You think you have spent a lot of time, but in the grand scheme you're still in the beginning stages. The first degree black belt in Japanese is "Shodan". This means first level. So, you see, everything between now and when you are finally ready for your black belt (you will know undoubtedly know when you are ready) is simply laying the foundation for you to reach the first level...not mastery.



I have heard that before, and I completely agree.  I've always seen the Kyu grades (since this was explained to me) as the time when you learn the basics.  Once you reach Shodan, that's when you start developing and refining your skill - beyond simply having achieved a good foundation.  The fact that there's 15 Dan grades in the Bujinkan system and only 9 Kyu grades suggests such a thing!


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## Cryozombie (Dec 21, 2006)

I am not qualified to "Teach" you Sanshin, but, let me clarify for you...

Sanshin is one of the MOST BASIC sets of techniques in the Bujinkan, and some of the first things you SHOULD have learned, So of course I made the assumption you KNEW WHAT THEY WERE ALREADY... and were just confused about the TERM.

*edit* Sorry... I will remove the comment I made here, there is no reason for it


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## TheDonster (Dec 21, 2006)

Thankyou.

Chances are if it's one of the most basic sets of techniques, then I probably already know what it is without actually knowing the name .  Although I do endeavour to learn the names so I can actually discuss these things more easily.


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> \
> I don't expect things to be handed to me on a silver platter, but I don't expect people to waste my time either.  If he had said "There's more to it than that, but you would need to speak to your teacher about it" then I would have been happy with the response.  Instead, he responded simply as "There's more to it than that", implying that I'm an idiot, and not providing any resolution at all.



Without being able to talk to your instructor directly, you HAVE been told that there's more to the kata than simply moving your arms.  It's time to take that advice, and look at the kata.  I'm not a BBT student -- but I'm pretty confident that the BBT practitioners won't disagree with this advice.  If you think you really understand a fundamenal kata or exercise, you probably need to slow down and look at it some more.  ESPECIALLY as a beginner.  I've been training in my system for more than 20 years; I STILL look at our most basic exercises and drills and forms, and find something new in them.  Or maybe I'm just slow...



> I do plenty of work on my own.  I have asked for small pieces of advice from people I train with, I have observed the things they do and I have spent a lot of my own time (even closing the door at work when it's quiet) trying to work things out.  I was simply looking for a bit more information to help me out and complement what I do know.



Sometimes, working alone is the last thing you should be doing.  Sometimes, you need a more experienced hand or qualified teacher to help you understand something.  Maybe you just need to relax with this issue until you can get that personal guidance.  But...  if you must work alone, and something at what I'll arbitrarily call "Level 3" isn't working, then it's time to go back to the beginning.  If number one isn't right, there's no way that number 3 can be right.


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## TheDonster (Dec 22, 2006)

I know what I'm supposed to be doing, I'm looking for ways I can work on that .  I love basics, basics are good.  I don't have any problem with working on them .

I want to work on this stuff alone because I have a 'good idea' of what's meant to be done, how it's all supposed to work.  I agree that it's not always the best idea to work alone but I believe in my situation I have a goal, it's just simply I needed some advice on what I should actually be working on to achieve that goal.

I've pretty well got the right idea as to how stuff is to work, eg. my form with my Kihon Happo is all pretty good (just a couple of little bad habits which have been indicated to me and I have all but ridden myself of) and it's simply a matter of me wanting to perfect using my legs to do everything.

I appreciate your advice of course, and I see where you're coming from.


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## Don Roley (Dec 22, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> I know what I'm supposed to be doing,



Probably not.

Unless you have mastered the subject, you have to rely on a teacher to tell you what you need to be working on. 

If you can't see a teacher until early next year, then you had best just wait until that time. Assuming you know what to do and going your own way is a recipe for running off on the wrong path. Take it from one with experience.


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> Probably not.
> 
> Unless you have mastered the subject, you have to rely on a teacher to tell you what you need to be working on.
> 
> If you can't see a teacher until early next year, then you had best just wait until that time. Assuming you know what to do and going your own way is a recipe for running off on the wrong path. Take it from one with experience.


 
It's also a way to really thoroughly grind in a bad habit or incorrect way of doing something.

And it's been my experience, both as teacher and student, that bad habits or wrong ways of doing things take much, much longer to unlearn than they did to learn...

I tell my students that the first secret of success in martial arts is to follow directions.  My teacher taught that to me...  He told stories of literally breaking out a ruler and measuring a step.  I thought he was exagerating for effect...  Until the day I found I had to take out a ruler and measure a step.  Sometimes, there's a world of difference between a 6-inch step and a 7-inch step...


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## TheDonster (Dec 22, 2006)

Hmmm, someone left negative reputation for me.  Not only did they not leave their name, but they also show they have obviously not read the entire topic.  Good on you, I hope you feel big.  I don't care about rep, by the way, so feel free to leave as much negative rep as you want .


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## TheDonster (Dec 22, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> It's also a way to really thoroughly grind in a bad habit or incorrect way of doing something.
> 
> And it's been my experience, both as teacher and student, that bad habits or wrong ways of doing things take much, much longer to unlearn than they did to learn...
> 
> I tell my students that the first secret of success in martial arts is to follow directions.  My teacher taught that to me...  He told stories of literally breaking out a ruler and measuring a step.  I thought he was exagerating for effect...  Until the day I found I had to take out a ruler and measure a step.  Sometimes, there's a world of difference between a 6-inch step and a 7-inch step...




I can relate to the first bit, that's how I was practising Kihon Happo after my 2 year break...  It took a bit of hammering over the last year to get me doing things more properly!

Your second point is interesting, although I'm pretty sure that I have been following directions as much as I possibly can!


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## jks9199 (Dec 22, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> I can relate to the first bit, that's how I was practising Kihon Happo after my 2 year break... It took a bit of hammering over the last year to get me doing things more properly!
> 
> Your second point is interesting, although I'm pretty sure that I have been following directions as much as I possibly can!


 
You've been "following directions as much as <you> possibly can"?

And you're still having trouble...

Then, there's one of two problems.  Either, you didn't understand the directions properly, or "as much as you can" isn't the same as "following directions exactly."  There's a reason that I broke out a ruler and measured 6 inches for an extended step; 7 didn't work, and neither did 5.  But 6 did.  

I've found that anytime that something I've been taught SHOULD work fails to...  I failed to do it the way it was taught.

Learning to listen and observe are vitally important skills in learning any martial art.


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## TheDonster (Dec 24, 2006)

jks9199 said:


> I've found that anytime that something I've been taught SHOULD work fails to...  I failed to do it the way it was taught.
> 
> Learning to listen and observe are vitally important skills in learning any martial art.




 I know...  The biggest problem I've had is mainly that I don't use my legs enough and I try to muscle people, although I'm sure there are sometimes little things (such as the wrong angle or target) that prevent me succeeding.  I am trying to take in as much advice as I can though, I'm not dismissing anything because I am sure that all guys have more experience at this than I do and I am very eager to get things right.

Ironically, my legs have decided they've had enough exercise lately so I have been unable to work on my Kihon Happo.


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## Don Roley (Dec 24, 2006)

TheDonster said:


> Ironically, my legs have decided they've had enough exercise lately so I have been unable to work on my Kihon Happo.



Been there, done that. :cheers: 

Maybe you can get a book on stretching and work on that until your up and about again.


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## TheDonster (Dec 25, 2006)

Good advice for anyone, although I already stretch as much as I can without hurting myself .


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 25, 2006)

Just stretch and rest them and you will probably be back to training in no time.  Good luck.


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