# Please, Can anyone tell me what style this is?



## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)




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## Argus (Sep 19, 2015)

I might be confusing him with someone else, but if I recall correctly, he claims to practice authentic Shaolin martial arts (something which is extremely hard to find these days -- and definitely won't be found at the temple itself).


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 19, 2015)

Argus said:


> I might be confusing him with someone else, but if I recall correctly, he claims to practice authentic Shaolin martial arts (something which is extremely hard to find these days -- and definitely won't be found at the temple itself).



Yup, that is what it is


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## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)

Wow my tukong moosul instructor knows this.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)

Argus said:


> I might be confusing him with someone else, but if I recall correctly, he claims to practice authentic Shaolin martial arts (something which is extremely hard to find these days -- and definitely won't be found at the temple itself).



Oddly enough it can be found in a Korean Shaolin temple.
Won Ik Yi was in a Shaolin temple from age 5 until 19 when Korean law forced him into service.

GM Yi started teaching in '82 in the US.
He returned to Korea for a while before coming back to resume teaching in Austin TX.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 19, 2015)

The guy in the video is Shi Dejian, there are several videos of him on YouTube, or there use to be, and he is pretty amazing. I also think he has a school in China


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## clfsean (Sep 19, 2015)

Shaolin's version of Liu He Quan. His school is on SongShan as well, but away from the West Peak & the tourist trap.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 19, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


>


There are something interested to talk about in this clip.

- at 0.23, he should use his left hand to cover on his opponent's right elbow joint so his opponent won't change from a straight punch into a side way elbow strike to his head.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 19, 2015)

There are something interested to talk about in this clip.

- At 0.23, he should use his left hand to cover on his opponent's right elbow joint so his opponent won't change from a straight punch into a

- side way elbow strike on his head, or
- reverse head lock on his neck.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Shaolin's version of Liu He Quan. His school is on SongShan as well, but away from the West Peak & the tourist trap.



So there are several traditions of this art?
Liu He Quan and old shaolin.


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## clfsean (Sep 19, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> So there are several traditions of this art?
> Liu He Quan and old shaolin.



No... this is Shaolin's version of Liu He Quan. There's other traditions that use the Liu He Quan. This is the Liu He Quan developed at Shaolin & maintained there. But Dejian isn't part of the "temple". He's distanced himself for multiple reasons, one of which is preserving his line of Liu He Quan & not having it watered down with the more modern Wushu influences there now.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 19, 2015)

clfsean said:


> No... this is Shaolin's version of Liu He Quan. There's other traditions that use the Liu He Quan. This is the Liu He Quan developed at Shaolin & maintained there. But Dejian isn't part of the "temple". He's distanced himself for multiple reasons, one of which is preserving his line of Liu He Quan & not having it watered down with the more modern Wushu influences there now.



0.
So it is that His (Dejian) art is a shaolin tradition apart from the "new" temple exclusively?

1.
Is it called "6 harmonies boxing"?

If so, why are people saying 6 harmonies boxing is the same thing as XingYi Quan or
_Hsing I Ch'üan?
_
Because I have seen a number of XingYi forms that look nothing like this in the video... and I find it confusing.

2.
But other non-shaolin traditions also have Liu He Quan...?

*Do you mean traditions such as these reported current branches:*

Botouzhen *Shi Family Liuhequan* (Descendants of 5th Generation master Shi Jinsheng),
*
Cangzhou Li Family Liuhequan* (Descendants of 5th Generation Master Li Guanming),
*
Tian Family or Shanghai Liuhequan *from the descendants of 5th generation master Tian Kechun and 7th generation Master Tong Zhongyi and
*
Beijing Liuhequan* as passed by the descendants of 7th Generation Master Liu Dekuan
*
Ziranmen Liuhequan* as passed by the descendants of 10th Generation Master Wan Laisheng.

*Or do you mean something entirely different.  I am extremely curious.*

3.
Do I understand you as saying there is also a second shaolin (temple) version of Liu He Quan. But that it has been mixed with Wushu?


4.
And do I hear you saying.... just that his branch is more pure in source and older (and non commercialized government / temple)?


*I am pretty fascinated*.

I also found this

*Curriculum of Liuhe Quan*
_Liuhequan is characterised by very clear and defined movements, where there is change but the points of pause and action are clearly divided. The postures are interconnected and the applications straightforward. Liuhequan aims to combine the internal with the external in a balanced harmonious and mutually supportive manner. 

The 6 Harmonies of direction: North, South, West, East, Up and down. The 6 Harmonies of the parts: Hands, feet, elbows, knees, hip and shoulders. And so on. In basic skills development Liuhequan concentrates on the 5 skills of Zhuang (Stance), Yao (Waist), Tui (Legs), Zhang (Palms) and Qi (Underlying energy). 

In combat it is said 'Once the hands are released then they will strike, if the hands must be retracted the will grab, yet should the hands be lockup up then they will throw, whilst once the legs rise they will kick:" (出手便打，顺手便拿，缩手便摔，起脚便踢) Thus we emphasize:
_

_Ti (Kick)_
_Da (Strike)_
_Na (Grab/lock)_
_Shuai (Throw)_
_Therefore in principle every strike can be followed by Chi-na techniques and thereafter by a throw. The development of combat then concentrates on the Bamu (8 roots) of : Ti (kick), Da (Strike), Shuai (Throw), Ji (Hit/beat), Qin (Sieze), Na (Grab), Xie (Take out) and Dian (Press). 

Watching in the 6 aspects and fighting in the 8 directions, calmness externally with pure intention internally, the liuhequan practitioner can succeed. Given Liuhequan's combat approach, the practice is comprised of 3 main components :
_

_Structure_
_Strength & Locking_
_Throwing & Wrestling_
_To develop structure, students are required to practice basic movements, Liuhequan is very structure so that Tantui prepare a very good foundation upon which students can build their skills. Tantui is comprised of rows of simple combinations that are repeated, this repetitive process develops both the strength, stamina, coordination and structure required for the further aspects of Liuhequan. 

Whilst developing structure and learning the basic methods of Striking (including all parts of the body, legs, knees, hips, back, elbows, hands, head etc...), students also commence the various Shuajiao exercises including stepping methods, various grappling and hand trappings, body and back strengthening, methods of entry, basic throws, lead throws, captured throws, deceived throws, and reverse throws. This then leads to combinations practices, sparring and combat. Concurrently students learn methods of evasiveness, agility and striking, many combinations form small 2 man drills and coordination methods which eventually lead to full 2 man combat set practice, applications free practice and open combat. 

Grappling is developed by various exercises followed by the development of grappling alertness so that the practice of Chin-na becomes logical and natural, from the basic self defense grabs to the advanced breaking, limb destruction and artery sealing grabs. This then leads to the practice of two man combat sets designed with many Chin-na methods within and the development of Fan Chin-na (Reverse/Counter Chin-na). The latter stages is when students combine their striking abilities with their locking and throwing ones. The result is a complete and fully capable martial artist which by coordinating all aspects of the body, success in Liuhequan would result.

_
*As I read and research the old "Te" of Okinaiwa... and its Chuan/Quan roots I find these methods pretty astonishingly similar to what I am reading about 6 harmonies Boxing.

The blending of striking and chin'na, joint destruction/sealing and throwling.
*


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## clfsean (Sep 20, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> 0.
> So it is that His (Dejian) art is a shaolin tradition apart from the "new" temple exclusively?



It's that Dejian didn't want to go along with "party" lines. So he left, took his skills & went to do where he thought he could continue the traditions he learned, as he learned them. This allows him to not have to go along with the current Songshan temple path. 



TSDTexan said:


> 1.
> Is it called "6 harmonies boxing"?
> 
> If so, why are people saying 6 harmonies boxing is the same thing as XingYi Quan or
> ...



6 Harmonies is a common catch phrase in some martial circles. Just like Louhan, or White Crane, etc... There may be a relationship to older, existent Li He styles, but I don't practice them so I couldn't speak with concrete authority. This is just information I've picked up over the years.



TSDTexan said:


> 2.
> But other non-shaolin traditions also have Liu He Quan...?
> 
> *Do you mean traditions such as these reported current branches:*
> ...



Li He is a common thread in TCMAs ... much like 2 extremes, 3 battles, 4 gates (doors), 5 elements (or animals), 6 harmonies, 7 stars, 8 trigrams, 9 palaces are. It's like below in the quote you got talking about Shuai, Da, Ti, Na. All TCMAs contain them. There's not one that doesn't. The emphasis & stress placed on each varies, but the ideas/notions/techniques/therories are there to make each happen within the framework of that TCMA. 



TSDTexan said:


> 3.
> Do I understand you as saying there is also a second shaolin (temple) version of Liu He Quan. But that it has been mixed with Wushu?



Nowadays, there's a flu of Wushu inspired/derived stuff at Songshan. It makes for better money coming in because it's flashier to watch. Look at his material. If you were a non-martial artist & went to see a demo, would you want flash or something that looked very cryptic & deliberate? 

There's plenty of the old, "original", folk master kept & preserved Songshan Shaolin there, but it's not what most people see out & about. It just doesn't "look" good. 



TSDTexan said:


> 4.
> And do I hear you saying.... just that his branch is more pure in source and older (and non commercialized government / temple)?



More so than the Songshan Temple & surrounding schools (Taguo, Liang Yi Quan's, etc...) yeah I'd say. But I imagine (China's a big place) there are other people trained in the folk ways that don't care one whit about the wushu stuff & only practice the old curriculum.



TSDTexan said:


> *I am pretty fascinated*.
> 
> I also found this
> 
> ...



That kinda describes Liu He. How it applies to the different styles or is a definition of a particular flavor of Liu He, I can't speak to. 



TSDTexan said:


> *As I read and research the old "Te" of Okinaiwa... and its Chuan/Quan roots I find these methods pretty astonishingly similar to what I am reading about 6 harmonies Boxing.
> 
> The blending of striking and chin'na, joint destruction/sealing and throwling.*



Tell me the name of this "Okinawan Kata" ... 






Good questions all around!

The big thing to remember in TCMAs is there are a lot of variations on a theme concerning certain very key items in TCMA. The biggest delineator is (to me) comes from "is it PRC modern wushu influenced or not".


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## TSDTexan (Sep 20, 2015)

clfsean said:


> It's that Dejian didn't want to go along with "party" lines. So he left, took his skills & went to do where he thought he could continue the traditions he learned, as he learned them. This allows him to not have to go along with the current Songshan temple path.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




(From a karate perspective)
Very high speed version of sanchin. "three battles"
Sanzhan in the Mandarin.
Saam Jin in Cantonese. 

Many variations exist within Karate. Slow with dynamic muscle tension or with a natual speed with tension. 

In the Uechi-Ryu form of Sanchin all muscles are tensed like 
Sanchin in other martial arts most of the time...

however a brief softness and looseness is employed for the muscles being moved to make explosive strikes and movements, while the rest of body remains tense to protect vital organs, and weak spots in the body.

 Then there is Ibuki breathing. Very loud and controled.

The version of Sanchin used by most styles of Karate was (re)developed by Chojun Miyagi Goju Ryu founder and uses a very strong, tense closed fist "push". 

In Uechi Ryu and in Ryusei, the practice of Sanchin is closer to the Chinese version with faster spear hand strikes that are more snake like


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## clfsean (Sep 20, 2015)

Think about Tensho ... but done with relaxed, natural springy, loose power from the body.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 20, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are something interested to talk about in this clip.
> 
> - At 0.23, he should use his left hand to cover on his opponent's right elbow joint so his opponent won't change from a straight punch into a
> 
> ...


I think the block you are talking about is at :022


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 20, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the block you are talking about is at :022


At 0.14, it's more clearly that blocking was missing. If he did, his left hand would be "above" his head. At 0.35, he even demonstrated elbow strike on the side of his opponent's head and followed with a "*抹(Mo) - Neck wiping*" (similar to "reverse head lock"). He should know that his opponent could do that to him at 0.14 as well.

The "*偏(Pian) – Head circling" *is a very useful skill in CMA. But it has to come with "hand block on the elbow joint".

IMO, to be able to control your opponent's elbow joint is very important when you enter. The moment that your opponent gets you into a "reverse head lock", the moment that the striking game is over and the grappling game starts.

He had demonstrated:

- "管(Guan) - Body control" at 0.51,
- "摘(Zai) – Helmet removing" at 0.53,
- "*撈 (Lao) – Leg seize*" at 0.57,
- "*飄(Piao) - Floating hand*" at 1.18,
- "穿(Chuan) - Fireman’s carry" at 1.36.

It's a good clip with a lot of good information in it. He knows his stuff.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 20, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> At 0.14, it's more clearly that blocking was missing. If he did, his left hand would be "above" his head


 There's no block needed at 0:14 because he's using his left arm to pin down the left arm of his opponent while slipping the punch and attacking the head with his right hand.  The blocking is not required for that technique.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 20, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's no block needed at 0:14 because he's using his left arm to pin down the left arm of his opponent while slipping the punch and attacking the head with his right hand.  The blocking is not required for that technique.


- His left hand pins down his opponent's left arm.
- His right hand strikes on his opponent's face.

IMO, there is no need to use his left hand to pin down his opponent's left arm. His opponent's left arm has already been jamed by his opponent's own right arm. That's the beauty of the "side door entry".

His opponent's right elbow joint is still free. His head is in his opponent's right elbow striking range. His opponent doesn't have to keep his right arm straight and freeze in the air.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 20, 2015)

0:51 I don't see body control.  I see uprooting a weak stance. The monk uses a strong horse stance to break his opponents root.

0:57 he's grabbing the groin. If you pause the video at the right time you can actually see the monks hand grabbing the groin. The guy in the yellow appears to be readjusting his junk right after that technique was finished.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 20, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - His left hand pins down his opponent's left arm.
> - His right hand strikes on his opponent's face.
> 
> IMO, there is no need to use his left hand to pin down his opponent's left arm. His opponent's left arm has already been jammed by his opponent's own right arm. That's the beauty of the "side door entry".
> ...


The monk pins his opponents left arm so that the opponent cannot use that hand to grab or interfere the monk's striking hand. At 0:12 you can see the monk pin his opponent's left are before striking. 

The monk's head is under the punching arm.  You can see at :013 that the head is in no danger to be struck with the elbow of the punching hand.  It's not until the monk pops up to talk that his head is even behind the elbow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 20, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> 0:51 I don't see body control.  I see uprooting a weak stance. The monk uses a strong horse stance to break his opponents root.
> 
> 0:57 he's grabbing the groin. If you pause the video at the right time you can actually see the monks hand grabbing the groin. The guy in the yellow appears to be readjusting his junk right after that technique was finished.


In CMA, this move is called "管(Guan) - Body control".






By definition, when your opponent moves in toward you, you lift one of his legs up. You can lift at the ankle, lower leg, below the knee, upper leg, or even the groin area too, that's called "*撈 (Lao) – Leg seize*" in CMA.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 20, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The monk's head is under the punching arm.  You can see at :013 that the head is in no danger to be struck with the elbow of the punching hand.  It's not until the monk pops up to talk that his head is even behind the elbow.


If the monk's head is

- inside of his opponent's right arm (before he moves his head under his opponent's right arm), his opponent can "head lock" on him.
- under his opponent's right arm (during he tries to move his head under his opponent's right arm),, his opponent can "drop right elbow" on him.
- outside of his opponent's right arm (after he has moved his head under his opponent's right arm), his opponent can "reverse head lock" on him.

All I'm trying to say is, to have your head next to (inside, under, outside) your opponent's "free" arm is dangerous without the protection of your other hand that can be used to control his "elbow joint". There is a good reason that whenever you use one hand to control your opponent's wrist, your other hand should also control his elbow joint. This way, his elbow joint cannot bend. The monk didn't address that issue very well.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 21, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If the monk's head is
> 
> - inside of his opponent's right arm (before he moves his head under his opponent's right arm), his opponent can "head lock" on him.
> - under his opponent's right arm (during he tries to move his head under his opponent's right arm),, his opponent can "drop right elbow" on him.
> ...


I still don't see it. Here's a video of me slipping a 1,2 punch in a similar manner with the exception of not pinning his arm and not striking while my opponents punch was over my head. There was no headlock and no elbow.  Because that punching hand came back to guard before I could reach his body.  Even after that, there was still no headlock You can see me raise my head closer to his chin to prevent any attempts of a headlock.

The fighting system that I study has Northern Shaolin techniques in it and many of the techniques we use have a way of misleading the attacker away from the attack.  For example, had I thrown a strike while slipping my opponent's attack, it would have landed without little or no resistance because he's paying attention to me slipping his punch and not the strike that is coming while I'm slipping. Unfortunately I only had 6 months of training at the school and didn't know how to attack while slipping a punch.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 21, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I still don't see it. Here's a video of me slipping a 1,2 punch in a similar manner with the exception of not pinning his arm and not striking while my opponents punch was over my head. There was no headlock and no elbow.


May be your opponent doesn't train that combo. In your clip, the "reverse head lock" will be a nice move after that hook punch when you (I assume that was you) dodge your head under his right arm.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 21, 2015)

Or we could go with Shi Dejian was "demonstrating", it was not a actual fight, and that it is very likely his response, based in his years of serious training, would be different if he was actually attacked.

I have never quite got the whole, now lets critique a demo thing, but if that is what makes one happy, carry on. .


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 21, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be your opponent doesn't train that combo. In your clip, the "reverse head lock" will be a nice move after that hook punch when you (I assume that was you) dodge your head under his right arm.


Yep the opportunity was there, but only for a short moment. Had I stayed in that position longer he would have easily put me in a head lock.
We practice headlocks in our school.  My sifu actually encouraged students to apply it whenever they had a chance to.  Here's the same guy getting caught with a headlock from another student.
Ironically it was right after he sparred with me. My sifu only gave use about 3 seconds to apply or escape a grappling technique. Our fighting style isn't a grappling system so he didn't like us to say in grappling mode longer than 3 seconds.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 21, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Or we could go with Shi Dejian was "demonstrating", it was not a actual fight, and that it is very likely his response, based in his years of serious training, would be different if he was actually attacked.
> 
> I have never quite got the whole, now lets critique a demo thing, but if that is what makes one happy, carry on. .


You can critique a demo but not to the extent of saying what would be possible for the opponent to do in response to an attack. Demonstrations happen slowly which gives the appearance that certain attacks and counters can be done in response. This is why I posted the video of me sparring which shows just how quickly the action is for light sparring. Techniques literally have windows of opportunity less than a second. If it takes me half a second to apply a technique then my opponent has less than half a second to recognize the attack, decide what to do, and apply a counter or defense. 

There were 9 attacks and counters(including blocks) done in my video clip, which is only about 3.5 seconds long. If you aren't analyzing techniques at this speed or greater then you'll end up seeing attacks and counters that aren't really possible or that aren't likely to occur.


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## DAVID LEE SPRINGER (Sep 22, 2015)

the first lock he used is called chi-na  its hidden in all gung-fu styles--hes defenitly a monk--i seen mantis techniques being used-he used pluck and controled elbow-love to practice with him


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 22, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> critique a demo ...





Kung Fu Wang said:


> He had demonstrated:
> 
> - "管(Guan) - Body control" at 0.51,
> - "摘(Zai) – Helmet removing" at 0.53,
> ...



I have given him a lot of credit for what he has shown in his clip. I prefer to call it "discuss a technique" instead of to call it "critique a demo".

The discussion is "how to reduce your risk to the minimum when you apply a certain technique such as *偏(Pian) – Head circling*".


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