# External vs internal martial arts



## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

When i was very young i trained a couple years in taekwondo, then life took over and i went abroad for university etc. When i was 30 years old my interest in martial arts returned and i trained some fuzhou white crane under a local master. After some persuasion from a close friend i joined a local taijiquan class. Taijiquan has been my only art ever since.

In my experience, a serious student of any martial art must clearly differentiate between external and internal martial arts. I have met many people who claim to practise internal arts or some hybrid art like wing chun and white crane but in reality what they are doing is external martial art with a bit of internal flavour. If one has a favourite technique like punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock, or even the taijiquan peng lu ji an, i would say that he or she is practising an external art.

What an internal art entails is this. After one acquires the external shape of the postures, the attention turns solely onto what happens in the inside of our body. For example if i do the taijiquan single whip posture, the internal balance of my body adjusts both consciously and subconsciously to allow me to perform the posture in a relaxed manner. Same goes for the transitions between the postures. After this 'internal adjustment' takes place for a few years, one's body becomes extremely balanced both outside and inside, both when standing still and moving.

In addition, after the body passes a certain threshold of 'sung', one acquires the ability to control the degree of tension in the body at will (i.e. solely through thought). When one reaches this stage where the body follows the dictates of the mind, the control of the body becomes refined and any response to external stimuli will become instantaneous. Because everything happens inside the body, the effect can only be felt (by other people), but not seen.

Hence, when an internal martial artist engages a person who has not trained in the internal arts, the internal martial artist can exploit all the 'internal imbalance' of that person. That is why sometimes an internal martial artist can be seen taking down a person seemingly without any effort.

So what martial art do you practise, external, internal or hybrid?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2016)

In my experience serious students of martial art should not waste time on such silly notions and know internal and external are false categories that show up in 1669 (in the the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan) more as a protest against the Qing Dynasty by Han people than anything else, and there was no mention ot Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua in it at all. And prior to that there was no such delineation, because it did not matter.

Also Chen Fake (1887–1957) never thought about internal vs external, he just trained and taught his family style, what we now call Chen Taijiquan. And last there is an old CMA saying...internal goes to external and external goes to internal. This means that if trained properly, they end up in the same place.

To me, a guy who once argued for these ridiculous categories,  such categories are at best elitist or at worst an excuse. I'm a taiji guy I use to be a Xingyiquan guy, that is all.... and speaking as a xingyi guy on the topic of internal and external (and I am betting you would get this from many Xingyiquan people)..... who cares..shut up and train.


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## talktalk (Apr 6, 2016)

Learning some jkd or modified wing chun if u like to call it. 

Recently I am learning Shao Lin Yi Jin Jing . Basically there are 12 styles or movements . It is a form exercise mainly to strengthen your muscle-bone .

This is brief description 
The Bodhidharma Yi Jin Jing is an internal energy cultivation exercise of the Shaolin Monastery. This legendary exercise has been accorded high respect by both Chineses Martial Arts and Qi Gong practitioners alike. It is aimed at strengthening the muscles, tendons, and ligaments and achieving a balanced state of internal energy (Qi) in the human body. This exercise consists of stretching, breathing and visualization techniques to acheive these holistic health foals. Persistant practive will increase blood and energy flow and amerliorate various illnesses and disorders.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> When i was very young i trained a couple years in taekwondo, then life took over and i went abroad for university etc. When i was 30 years old my interest in martial arts returned and i trained some fuzhou white crane under a local master. After some persuasion from a close friend i joined a local taijiquan class. Taijiquan has been my only art ever since.
> 
> In my experience, a serious student of any martial art must clearly differentiate between external and internal martial arts. I have met many people who claim to practise internal arts or some hybrid art like wing chun and white crane but in reality what they are doing is external martial art with a bit of internal flavour. If one has a favourite technique like punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock, or even the taijiquan peng lu ji an, i would say that he or she is practising an external art.
> 
> ...



Was all that to say you believe in gi, chi, or whatever you wish to call it?  Or are you talking about something else?


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Is that a serious question?


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Is that a serious question?



Why yes, it was.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> When i was very young i trained a couple years in taekwondo, then life took over and i went abroad for university etc. When i was 30 years old my interest in martial arts returned and i trained some fuzhou white crane under a local master. After some persuasion from a close friend i joined a local taijiquan class. Taijiquan has been my only art ever since.
> 
> In my experience, a serious student of any martial art must clearly differentiate between external and internal martial arts. I have met many people who claim to practise internal arts or some hybrid art like wing chun and white crane but in reality what they are doing is external martial art with a bit of internal flavour. If one has a favourite technique like punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock, or even the taijiquan peng lu ji an, i would say that he or she is practising an external art.
> 
> ...



I enjoyed your descriptions.  I do not know very much about CMA.  In my own style, Isshin Ryu, we study what you might call 'external', but I have to add that I am spending a lot of time recently trying to do what you describe when contemplating my own 'inner self' as I am applying techniques.  This may not be an official or even a taught manner of practicing my particular art, but I am doing it on my own, because it seems right to do so.  I suspect that I am far from the first person to do so.

When I take a stance, for example, I am now spending time thinking about the micro-positioning that makes it work or not work, more or less efficient for my body build, weight, and flexibility; in other words, to personalize it for me.  I am also thinking about my inner conflicts and mindfulness or empty mindedness that affect my ability to perform the movement that is about to happen.  It's an internal as well as external settling moment; a deliberate pause prior to exploding into the next technique.  The pause of course, need not be of a significant slice of time, but a mere fraction of a moment.

We talk about dropping our breath, dropping our weight, but we seldom talk about dropping our concerns and mental state.  Seems to me that we should, if we can.  Even if we do it during training and not so much in an emergency situation, it helps to maximize our potential.

Funny thing is, it reminds me very much of the marksmanship training I received in the Marine Corps.  We used an acronym called 'BRASS."  Breathe, relax, aim, STOP, squeeze (the trigger).  That 'stop' is very important.  Maybe more important than anything else.  That's the part where you empty yourself and then you become one with the rifle, the bullet, and the target.  The finger on the trigger, and the subsequent movement of the bullet downrange, are inevitable consequences of an action that has already been completed in the mind.  It will happen because it has happened.

Works for breaking bricks as well.  I break them because I already did in my mind.  The brick has no choice in the matter.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Why yes, it was.



To answer your question, chi or qi was not on my mind when i wrote my post.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 6, 2016)

Then could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an internal art?  I am not sure how you mean that.  Thanks.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I enjoyed your descriptions.  I do not know very much about CMA.  In my own style, Isshin Ryu, we study what you might call 'external', but I have to add that I am spending a lot of time recently trying to do what you describe when contemplating my own 'inner self' as I am applying techniques.  This may not be an official or even a taught manner of practicing my particular art, but I am doing it on my own, because it seems right to do so.  I suspect that I am far from the first person to do so.
> 
> When I take a stance, for example, I am now spending time thinking about the micro-positioning that makes it work or not work, more or less efficient for my body build, weight, and flexibility; in other words, to personalize it for me.  I am also thinking about my inner conflicts and mindfulness or empty mindedness that affect my ability to perform the movement that is about to happen.  It's an internal as well as external settling moment; a deliberate pause prior to exploding into the next technique.  The pause of course, need not be of a significant slice of time, but a mere fraction of a moment.
> 
> ...



I really enjoyed your posts, including this one.

I don't practise an external art, but i do know a bit of it. Let me know what you think of my description. Good external arts, like boxing or fuzhou white crane which i used to practise, also emphasize relaxation, whole body coordination, rooting, explosive force etc. However, the crucial difference between an external art and an internal art is that in an external art, one usually collects, practises and eventually masters individual techniques.

Let's imagine i am an external martial artist. First i train straight punches, until they become very effective and most importantly, second nature. Now this straight punch becomes a part of my repertoire. Next i train joint locks, and so on, until i have built a 'vocabulary' of moves that i could use at will. This 'vocabulary' of moves could consist of 10 or 20 moves or more, and could be absolutely devastating when used at the right moment.

A pure internal martial artist thinks very differently. Take for example myself. I do not learn any set moves. If you ask me what move i'm good at, i would not be able to answer. When engaging an opponent i am externally and internally balanced, and i look for defects in the opponent's body and movement which i then take advantage of. If the opponent is slow i am slower, but if the opponent is fast i am faster. If the opponent advances towards me he will feel that i am very far, but if he retreats he will feel that i am very near. What i'm describing would feel natural to an internal martial artist, but probably a little confusing to an external martial artist.

Re your approach, i can't really comment on its effectiveness, but if i'm an external martial artist, i would focus on practising my selected techniques over and over until they become reflex or second nature rather than worrying about emptying my mind. The reason is that i believe what you are doing is only about 10 percent of an internal art, so instead of trying to gain from this mere 10 percent, i would rather focus on the strong points of my external art.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Then could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by an internal art?  I am not sure how you mean that.  Thanks.



Perhaps do a google search?


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I really enjoyed your posts, including this one.
> 
> A pure internal martial artist thinks very differently. Take for example myself. I do not learn any set moves. If you ask me what move i'm good at, i would not be able to answer. When engaging an opponent i am externally and internally balanced, and i look for defects in the opponent's body and movement which i then take advantage of. If the opponent is slow i am slower, but if the opponent is fast i am faster. If the opponent advances towards me he will feel that i am very far, but if he retreats he will feel that i am very near. What i'm describing would feel natural to an internal martial artist, but probably a little confusing to an external martial artist.



Memoirs of a Grasshopper: The Eight Laws of the Fist

_5. Te wa ku ni ai sunawachi hairu.
Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought._​
We train specific movements, yes.  But when the mind opens, one sees that there is only movement, and the principles of correct movement can be applied in endless configurations to achieve a desired end.


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## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Perhaps do a google search?



That's a bit rude. He's not asking what internal arts are, he's asking what *you* mean by internal arts because you haven't made it particularly clear.
I'm not sure either what you mean by external arts because I don't recognise your description of it.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> favourite technique like punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock, or even the taijiquan peng lu ji an, i would say that he or she is practising an external art.



So are you saying you only find; punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock in external arts?

Are you also saying that practicing the 13 postures in Taijiquan is external as well?


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> That's a bit rude. He's not asking what internal arts are, he's asking what *you* mean by internal arts because you haven't made it particularly clear.
> I'm not sure either what you mean by external arts because I don't recognise your description of it.



i don't mean to be rude, but seriously the various explanations of the term 'internal art' can be found easily on the internet. I don't really want to reinvent the wheel.



Xue Sheng said:


> So are you saying you only find; punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock in external arts?
> 
> Are you also saying that practicing the 13 postures in Taijiquan is external as well?



I'm not interested in a debate.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Memoirs of a Grasshopper: The Eight Laws of the Fist
> 
> _5. Te wa ku ni ai sunawachi hairu.
> Techniques will occur in the absence of conscious thought._​
> We train specific movements, yes.  But when the mind opens, one sees that there is only movement, and the principles of correct movement can be applied in endless configurations to achieve a desired end.



That's really deep.


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## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> i don't mean to be rude, but seriously the various explanations of the term 'internal art' can be found easily on the internet. I don't really want to reinvent the wheel.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not interested in a debate.





Oh boy. I think you have missed the meaning of the question, he is not asking for an explanation of what internal arts are, he knows but what he and the rest of us don't know is *what you think it means*, this is because what you are saying doesn't gel with what others understand it to mean nor actually the explanations given when you do look up Google therefore you must mean something different by 'internal arts'.

If you aren't interested in debate what are you posting for? This isn't a university site where you post up a lecture and your thoughts and we all go, gosh thank you.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> i don't mean to be rude, but seriously the various explanations of the term 'internal art' can be found easily on the internet. I don't really want to reinvent the wheel.



No one is asking you to reinvent the wheel, but a definition on the internet may not agree with the definition that you are using. It is a question from what I can see, that is all.



Zeny said:


> I'm not interested in a debate.



It is not a debate, I am not interested in debating anything with you either. it is a question that is an attempt to see where you are coming from on this. since you are unwilling to provide a definition of what you consider internal.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Oh boy. I think you have missed the meaning of the question, he is not asking for an explanation of what internal arts are, he knows but what he and the rest of us don't know is *what you think it means*, this is because what you are saying doesn't gel with what others understand it to mean nor actually the explanations given when you do look up Google therefore you must mean something different by 'internal arts'.
> 
> If you aren't interested in debate what are you posting for? This isn't a university site where you post up a lecture and your thoughts and we all go, gosh thank you.



Serious question, why are you on this thread if you have nothing interesting to contribute?


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> No one is asking you to reinvent the wheel, but a definition on the internet may not agree with the definition that you are using. It is a question from what I can see, that is all.
> 
> 
> 
> It is not a debate, I am not interested in debating anything with you either. it is a question that is an attempt to see where you are coming from on this. since you are unwilling to provide a definition of what you consider internal.



You have already stated your opinion that one needs not care about external or internal. Point taken. Now why are you on this thread again?


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## Danny T (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Serious question, why are you on this thread if you have nothing interesting to contribute?


Tez is here because she wants to be here. Same as you.

Punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock...etc cannot happen without the internal.



Zeny said:


> You have already stated your opinion that one needs not care about external or internal. Point taken. Now why are you on this thread again?


Zue is here because he wants to be here. Same as you.

Punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock...etc cannot happen without internal so...


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> You have already stated your opinion that one needs not care about external or internal. Point taken. Now why are you on this thread again?



Why are you afraid to answer my question?

You made a statement that we are all supposed to understand and you are basing that statement on a definition of internal that is specific to you and refusing to answer questions when asked, as to what you mean. I am here to see if we can figure out where your coming from, or if you actually know yourself where you are coming from.


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## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2016)

Why am I here?

Ok I'll play. I'm a martial artist, I enjoy what I do but I also enjoy learning about martial arts, all style including ones I could never do like capoeira and ones I'd love to do like Iaido. Martial arts do have a common basis, there are only so many ways one can move the limbs, only so many ways one can fight so most of us who have been doing martial arts for a long time can recognise what is going on in other styles even if we don't do them. I can see echoes of CMA in what I do in Wado Ryu, I want to know more, see more, I don't want ever to say, well I've seen it all and know it all because I don't believe anyone can know it all. So I read, watch, try out everything to see what I can learn, I have to tell you I have learned a lot from Xue Sheng on here over the years as well as from others. this place is a valuable resource for those that like to learn. 

Soooo.... zeny,. why are you on here?


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## Danny T (Apr 6, 2016)

And some of us have a sense of humor... often in a strange sense...but it is humor.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2016)

Danny T said:


> And some of us have a sense of humor... often in a strange sense...but it is humor.


 
Now your just trying to cause trouble


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> A pure internal martial artist thinks very differently. Take for example myself. I do not learn any set moves. If you ask me what move i'm good at, i would not be able to answer.


There are problems by using this approach. For example, a "hip throw" will require to

- land your right foot in front of your opponent's right foot,
- land your left foot in front of your opponent's left foot,
- use your left arm to wrap on his right arm,
- use your right arm to "under hook", "over hook" his left shoulder. or "waist wrap" on his waist.
- ...

If any of your feet and hands are not at the right place and at the right time, your "hip throw" won't work. Of course you may say you don't need to train "hip throw". The concern is since the "hip throw" is the mother of all throws, you will miss a lot of the throwing skill training. Again, you may say that you don't need to train "throwing skill". If that's the case then how to counter throws will not be part of your training. Your training will become a pure "striking art". Is that what you want your training to be?



Zeny said:


> When engaging an opponent i am externally and internally balanced, and i look for defects in the opponent's body and movement which i then take advantage of.


When your opponent uses "arm drag" and tries to move behind of you, the best counter is to put your leading leg behind his leading leg to prevent him from getting behind you.

Without repeating your partner drill 10,000 times, do you think you can react correctly the 1st time that your opponent applies "arm drag" on you?


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 6, 2016)

It's like I'm hearing you. But I'm not hearing you. You hear me?


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why are you afraid to answer my question?
> 
> You made a statement that we are all supposed to understand and you are basing that statement on a definition of internal that is specific to you and refusing to answer questions when asked, as to what you mean. I am here to see if we can figure out where your coming from, or if you actually know yourself where you are coming from.



I find that there is really no point for me personally to spend time typing answers to your questions. If you don't agree with or don't understand what i say or don't think i understand what i say, that's fine, please move on.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Why am I here?
> 
> Ok I'll play. I'm a martial artist, I enjoy what I do but I also enjoy learning about martial arts, all style including ones I could never do like capoeira and ones I'd love to do like Iaido. Martial arts do have a common basis, there are only so many ways one can move the limbs, only so many ways one can fight so most of us who have been doing martial arts for a long time can recognise what is going on in other styles even if we don't do them. I can see echoes of CMA in what I do in Wado Ryu, I want to know more, see more, I don't want ever to say, well I've seen it all and know it all because I don't believe anyone can know it all. So I read, watch, try out everything to see what I can learn, I have to tell you I have learned a lot from Xue Sheng on here over the years as well as from others. this place is a valuable resource for those that like to learn.
> 
> Soooo.... zeny,. why are you on here?



No really, why are you on my thread about external vs internal when all you do is make offensive posts?


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It's like I'm hearing you. But I'm not hearing you. You hear me?



Can you be more specific? I don't really get you either.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 6, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I find that there is really no point for me personally to spend time typing answers to your questions. If you don't agree with or don't understand what i say or don't think i understand what i say, that's fine, please move on.



It was two simple questions

1) So are you saying you only find; punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock in external arts?

2) Are you also saying that practicing the 13 postures in Taijiquan is external as well?

and those questions are based on a post you made that needed clarification...don't understand all the fuss...


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## mograph (Apr 6, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> It's like I'm hearing you. But I'm not hearing you. You hear me?


Can you hear me now? (thump thump) Is this thing on?


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2016)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I enjoyed your descriptions.  I do not know very much about CMA.  In my own style, Isshin Ryu, we study what you might call 'external', but I have to add that I am spending a lot of time recently trying to do what you describe when contemplating my own 'inner self' as I am applying techniques.  This may not be an official or even a taught manner of practicing my particular art, but I am doing it on my own, because it seems right to do so.  I suspect that I am far from the first person to do so.
> 
> When I take a stance, for example, I am now spending time thinking about the micro-positioning that makes it work or not work, more or less efficient for my body build, weight, and flexibility; in other words, to personalize it for me.  I am also thinking about my inner conflicts and mindfulness or empty mindedness that affect my ability to perform the movement that is about to happen.  It's an internal as well as external settling moment; a deliberate pause prior to exploding into the next technique.  The pause of course, need not be of a significant slice of time, but a mere fraction of a moment.
> 
> ...



"The brick has no choice in the matter." That's gold right there.


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> It was two simple questions
> 
> 1) So are you saying you only find; punching, throwing, leg sweep or joint lock in external arts?
> 
> ...



Two simple answers then:

1) No. Bill Mattocks did some empty mind thing for his karate. Does it mean his karate is an internal art? I don't know why you see things completely in black and white.

2) it depends on how you do it

Satisfied?


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## Zeny (Apr 6, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are problems by using this approach. For example, a "hip throw" will require to
> 
> - land your right foot in front of your opponent's right foot,
> - land your left foot in front of your opponent's left foot,
> ...



In my limited experience, it depends on the level of the internal martial artist. If you have practised the move 10,000 times and can do it in your sleep, the internal martial artist ought to be of a similar or higher level before he could counter your move. When we discuss internal arts it is counterintuitive to say, if you do this, i do that, because that's not how it works.


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## Buka (Apr 6, 2016)

To Zeny's OP - I've been doing external Martial Arts for a long time. Love it.
I've been doing an internal Martial Art for six weeks. (Tai-chi) Love it. Did it for six months or so back in 76, but the teacher moved away. Always knew I'd do it again.

Ain't the Arts grand? Oh, you betcha'.


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## Danny T (Apr 6, 2016)

Ok on a serious note.
Internal vs External = Taoist vs Buddhist = from China vs from elsewhere.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> the internal martial artist ought to be of a similar or higher level before he could counter your move.



Are you saying that "internal" guys don't train offensive skill but only train defensive skill?


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you saying that "internal" guys don't train offensive skill but only train defensive skill?



The internal martial artist trains the same skill (see my OP) that can be used in both offence and defence. In my experience, of course, i can't speak for all internalists.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> The internal martial artist trains the same skill (see my OP) that can be used in both offence and defence. In my experience, of course, i can't speak for all internalists.


For those offense skills and defense skills, does "internal" martial artist "develop" it through "partner drills" the same way as the external martial artist does (such as to repeat a partner drill for 10,000 times)?


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> A pure internal martial artist thinks very differently. Take for example myself. I do not learn any set moves



So then, how the hell do you fight?



Zeny said:


> Perhaps do a google search?



Or since you are so knowledgeable on the subject, maybe you can just tell him? You made the thread after all, you should be willing to answer people's questions about your thread.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> No really, why are you on my thread about external vs internal when all you do is make offensive posts?



I think you need to look at how you write things then because you are  and have been before quite offensive in what you write.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> For those offense skills and defense skills, does "internal" martial artist "develop" it through "partner drills" the same way as the external martial artist does (such as to repeat a partner drill for 10,000 times)?



For me i do practise partner drills, but no set techniques. Of course it is fair to say that with only two arms and two legs, there are only so many moves a person can do. But what i mean is there is no technique that has its own name, like the wing chun sun punch or tan sau. I may touch your upper arm with my 5th finger, and that is done with a purpose, but you can't actually call that a technique. Again i speak for myself and not all internalists.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think you need to look at how you write things then because you are and have been before quite offensive in what you write.



Fair enough, but same goes for you, what you wrote was not especially pleasant either. I also don't go out of my way to write in such a way as to be especially polite in order to please internet strangers. If you don't like my posts, please just ignore them, no need to get so worked up over it.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> So then, how the hell do you fight?
> 
> 
> 
> Or since you are so knowledgeable on the subject, maybe you can just tell him? You made the thread after all, you should be willing to answer people's questions about your thread.



I'm not an authority on the subject and i'm not here to teach. I am a student and not a teacher. I share my views and listen to other people's views. i don't owe it to anyone to explain further anything i wrote.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Fair enough, but same goes for you, what you wrote was not especially pleasant either. I also don't go out of my way to write in such a way as to be especially polite in order to please internet strangers. If you don't like my posts, please just ignore them, no need to get so worked up over it.



Actually I don't get worked up about them, the fact that you think I do means your perception on what people write on here is skewed. I pass comment which is what this place is for. This place isn't for 'strangers' by the way, many of us are paying supporting members which means we pay to keep it going, you don't. This is also advertised as a friendly place not a place for you to exhibit your ego, I didn't write anything unpleasant at all if you actually read what I said and your posts, you've been quite rude to people on here.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Was all that to say you believe in gi, chi, or whatever you wish to call it?  Or are you talking about something else?



I dunno, but i feel this post wasn't especially pleasant, so i don't feel inclined to respond to him. Thus the subsequent google comment.



Tez3 said:


> Actually I don't get worked up about them, the fact that you think I do means your perception on what people write on here is skewed. I pass comment which is what this place is for. This place isn't for 'strangers' by the way, many of us are paying supporting members which means we pay to keep it going, you don't. This is also advertised as a friendly place not a place for you to exhibit your ego, I didn't write anything unpleasant at all if you actually read what I said and your posts, you've been quite rude to people on here.



Is my OP an unwelcome exhibition of ego? Please enlighten me, so i know what to post and what not to post.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

The OP itself is fine, you ask questions then get a miff on when people answer you.



Zeny said:


> Is that a serious question?





Zeny said:


> Serious question, why are you on this thread if you have nothing interesting to contribute?





Zeny said:


> You have already stated your opinion that one needs not care about external or internal. Point taken. Now why are you on this thread again?





Zeny said:


> I find that there is really no point for me personally to spend time typing answers to your questions. If you don't agree with or don't understand what i say or don't think i understand what i say, that's fine, please move on.





Zeny said:


> No really, why are you on my thread about external vs internal when all you do is make offensive posts?





Zeny said:


> Two simple answers then:
> 
> 1) No. Bill Mattocks did some empty mind thing for his karate. Does it mean his karate is an internal art? I don't know why you see things completely in black and white.
> 
> ...


----------



## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

I might be mistaken but i don't see any exhibition of ego in the above posts you quoted. Rude to Xue Sheng and you, yes, but you two have not been very pleasant either from the beginning.



Xue Sheng said:


> In my experience serious students of martial art should not waste time on such silly notions and know internal and external are false categories that show up in 1669 (in the the Epitaph for Wang Zhengnan) more as a protest against the Qing Dynasty by Han people than anything else, and there was no mention ot Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua in it at all. And prior to that there was no such delineation, because it did not matter.
> 
> Also Chen Fake (1887–1957) never thought about internal vs external, he just trained and taught his family style, what we now call Chen Taijiquan. And last there is an old CMA saying...internal goes to external and external goes to internal. This means that if trained properly, they end up in the same place.
> 
> To me, a guy who once argued for these ridiculous categories,  such categories are at best elitist or at worst an excuse. I'm a taiji guy I use to be a Xingyiquan guy, that is all.... and speaking as a xingyi guy on the topic of internal and external (and I am betting you would get this from many Xingyiquan people)..... who cares..shut up and train.





Tez3 said:


> Oh boy. I think you have missed the meaning of the question, he is not asking for an explanation of what internal arts are, he knows but what he and the rest of us don't know is *what you think it means*, this is because what you are saying doesn't gel with what others understand it to mean nor actually the explanations given when you do look up Google therefore you must mean something different by 'internal arts'.
> 
> If you aren't interested in debate what are you posting for? This isn't a university site where you post up a lecture and your thoughts and we all go, gosh thank you.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Two simple answers then:
> 
> 1) No. Bill Mattocks did some empty mind thing for his karate. Does it mean his karate is an internal art? I don't know why you see things completely in black and white.
> 
> ...



No, no I m not, those did not answer either question, but I do suppose they could qualify as simple if in fact those are your answers.


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## DaveB (Apr 7, 2016)

As a total outsider to this discussion I thought Zeny's opening post explained his view of an internal martial art.

That said I find it bafflingly childish to come on to a discussion forum and proclaim you don't want to debate. I think the fear of having ideas challenged is one of the saddest and scariest trends I have observed recently: as if there is something noble about shying away from intellectual reasoning or from being open to having your mind changed because of the holes in your logic.

And IMO the only rude poster thus far has been the op. Summarily dismissing folks because they dared to ask for clarification is pretty poor.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I might be mistaken but i don't see any exhibition of ego in the above posts you quoted. Rude to Xue Sheng and you, yes, but you two have not been very pleasant either from the beginning.



Zeny

I see the problem as; Your ego has been threatened so you got angry. Sorry, but my years of training make me doubt and question many of the things you post. I want people to understand what Taijiquan really is, not the magic, mysticism and elitism that many seem to expound about and get defensive of when meant with the reality of it. 

What I see is that we did not bow down to "Grand Master" Zeny and take everything you say as absolute truth. We dare question what you say and therefore your ego was threatened. Sorry, but I am not impressed by "Grand Master" Zeny and I will also not sit idly by while you post things that I believe hurt taiji than help it


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

DaveB said:


> As a total outsider to this discussion I thought Zeny's opening post explained his view of an internal martial art.
> 
> That said I find it bafflingly childish to come on to a discussion forum and proclaim you don't want to debate. I think the fear of having ideas challenged is one of the saddest and scariest trends I have observed recently: as if there is something noble about shying away from intellectual reasoning or from being open to having your mind changed because of the holes in your logic.
> 
> And IMO the only rude poster thus far has been the op. Summarily dismissing folks because they dared to ask for clarification is pretty poor.



Fair enough on the rude point. I disagree but i respect your view.

However on the debate point i disagree. It is pretty pointless to debate with someone if their mind is already made up. I also have no desire whatsoever to persuade anyone to agree with me.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Zeny
> 
> I see the problem as; Your ego has been threatened so you got angry. Sorry, but my years of training make me doubt and question many of the things you post. I want people to understand what Taijiquan really is, not the magic, mysticism and elitism that many seem to expound about and get defensive of when meant with the reality of it.
> 
> What I see is that we did not bow down to "Grand Master" Zeny and take everything you say as absolute truth. We dare question what you say and therefore your ego was threatened. Sorry, but I am not impressed by "Grand Master" Zeny and I will also not sit idly by while you post things that I believe hurt taiji than help it



I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Why on earth would i want to exhibit my ego on an internet forum to total strangers? You have 20 years in taijiquan and i only have 6 years, and if we were to meet up to cross hands i would most probably lose. I seriously don't know why you think i want people to take what i say as the absolute truth.

At the same time i also don't think you know everything about taijiquan to allow you to become the 'guardian of true taijiquan' and judge what other people think and believe about their taijiquan and make sure everyone conforms to what you think is the 'true taijiquan'. We don't even practise the same style of taijiquan, and who gave you the right to say what i practise in my style is not taijiquan. Talking about a big ego, sheesh.

The true taijiquan masters are out there, teaching many students across many countries, not debating on an internet forum.


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## DaveB (Apr 7, 2016)

1. That anyone's mind is made up is an assumption about people you don't know. 

2. The purpose of debate is not to persuade but to find the truth through reasoning. A bit like how scientists deduce from data and then let other scientists try to rip their theory apart. Only that which stands up to examination can be hoped to be reliable. 

If what you bring to the discussion is faith then that is personal to you and not really worth discussing as it requires no basis beyond you liking the idea.
However you don't appear to be presenting a faith, but a fact as you see it. 
You should be interested in understanding the truth of that fact for your own self,  but even if you're not you can't expect others to not be.


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## DaveB (Apr 7, 2016)

On the topic of internal v external ma, the best description I encountered of IMA, was arts internal to the wudan family of arts, I.e. more of a cultural idea.

However the person I heard that from did describe a common factor, which was that the IMA all work to conserve momentum, suggesting that whether you are hitting or receiving force you never just stop and reset. Rather you move in such a way as to redirect and continue the flow of energy/weight/momentum. 

This kind of simple mechanical explanation makes a lot of sense to me and even a brief exploration of what it might entail gave me a great appreciation of the level of complexity and refinement required to work in that way.

It also lead me to believe that there is an Internal Shotokan kata...


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

DaveB said:


> 1. That anyone's mind is made up is an assumption about people you don't know.
> 
> 2. The purpose of debate is not to persuade but to find the truth through reasoning. A bit like how scientists deduce from data and then let other scientists try to rip their theory apart. Only that which stands up to examination can be hoped to be reliable.
> 
> ...



It's not an assumption. Xue Sheng has admitted it, see his post above. I said i did not wish to debate with Xue Sheng.

There is really no point to debate martial arts. It can only be tested by actual fighting, and in actual fighting, people get hurt. I really don't see why you think it is beneficial to debate martial arts to find out what is the 'absolute truth', if there really is one. What works for one person may not work for another. No one size fits all.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

DaveB said:


> The purpose of debate is not to persuade but to find the truth through reasoning.



An argument is to find out who is right, a debate finds out what is right.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> An argument is to find out who is right, a debate finds out what is right.



What is right for 'whom'? Do we even eat the same food?


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> What is right for 'whom'? Do we even eat the same food?



That's why we debate...to find out what is right for each of us. There is no 'right' as there is in law ie 'right to free speech' or the 'right to drive sheep through the centre of London' . We debate to pick the bones out of something to see what works and what doesn't, how it works and why it doesn't.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Why on earth would i want to exhibit my ego on an internet forum to total strangers? You have 20 years in taijiquan and i only have 6 years, and if we were to meet up to cross hands i would most probably lose. I seriously don't know why you think i want people to take what i say as the absolute truth.
> 
> At the same time i also don't think you know everything about taijiquan to allow you to become the 'guardian of true taijiquan' and judge what other people think and believe about their taijiquan and make sure everyone conforms to what you think is the 'true taijiquan'. Talking about a big ego, sheesh.
> 
> The true taijiquan masters are out there, teaching many students across many countries, not debating on an internet forum.



Zeny

Never said I was the guardian of "True Taiji", I did say that when someone is posting things based on myth, mysticism and magic I would point it out. You see, there are things in taijiquan that can appear to be "Magical" and there are those that will capitalize on that and then there are those that will believe it. and then they tell 2 people and they tell 2 people and before you know it you got a bunch of people standing around doing no touch knockouts...or at least that is what they beleive.

 However the fact is, it is not magical, it is training and dedication to that training. I am also of the belief, that Taiji as a martial art is dead. And I believe that for the same reasons Chen Xiaowang stated a few years back; there are way to many that know taiji as a moving meditation, and I am also ok with that by the way, if that is what they want good, I am happy for them. But there are large numbers of them, and compared to those who know the martial arts of it, if you divide those who know the MA by those who do not the number is so close to zero that it might as well be zero. There was also a time I just threw my hands up and said o be it, and like my sifu, pretty much retired from teaching the MA of it. But recently I decided that, yes it is dying as an MA, but it will have to die with me because I am not going to quit on it. 

I also never claimed to know everything about taijiquan, I don't think anyone can

To see why I think you are here to teach and proselytize and be seen as the "Grand Master" All you need to is go back, drop the ego, and reread the majority of the posts you have made since coming to MT. Just look at the the very first post of this thread and "your" wording "*serious student of any martial art must clearly differentiate between external and internal martial arts."* that is saying that if you do not do this, per Zeny, you are not serious. So the majority of all JMA students are not serious, there is not a single serious BJJ or MMA student, no one who trains Sanda/Sanshou (no matter the version) could possibly be serious. The majority of Xingyiquan people (who know about Internal and external) are not serious. as are multiple martial artists from multiple cultures globally. Is that what Zeny is saying, and if so, you want me to believe that it does not come from Ego, or mysticism. You also made it sound like the 13 postures as well as kicking, punching, Shuaijiao and qinna could not be practiced internally, so now you have pretty much excluded any serious martial artist that trains Taijiquan from Zeny's exclusive taijiquan club, not to mention virtually every other CMA practitioner. Is that what you are trying to say. Do you now understand the reason for my very first post, and my questions....or am I still trying to be the "guardian of true Taiji?

And sorry, but the Internal vs external containers are just plane silly IMHO. They create silos and prejudice and excuses and they inhibit training things properly. Also, if you do the research, there are multiple definitions of the terminology in Chinese history that range from   that which comes from inside China (based in Taoism) vs that which comes from outside China (based in Buddhism) all the way to developing "Qi" internally Vs developing Qi externally. Add to that; it did not matter before the late 1600, and from what I can tell it did not matter to the Chen family until sometime in the 20th century. 

OK, call me names, tell me I'm and egotist, tell me I am barking up the wrong tree, or accuse me of trying to be the guardian of true taiji....does not matter.... I have more important things to do...like go get some taiji done before I have to leave my house.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Debating about science i can understand, but art? We don't even do the same taijiquan forms.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Zeny
> 
> Never said I was the guardian of "True Taiji", I did say that when someone is posting things based on myth, mysticism and magic I would point it out. You see, there are things in taijiquan that can appear to be "Magical" and there are those that will capitalize on that and then there are those that will believe it. and then they tell 2 people and they tell 2 people and before you know it you got a bunch of people standing around doing no touch knockouts...or at least that is what they beleive.
> 
> ...



Some people find my OP acceptable (tez), some people enjoyed it (bill), some people understood it (dave), some people don't (oftheherd), and some people find it offensive (xue), and you happen to be in the latter category. I don't mind that because that's what happens in an internet forum, just don't be an *** about it or pretend you are speaking for everyone or people need protection from the lies of Zeny.

i'm sure many people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is real and what is delusion. If you don't like my post, do yourself a favour and avoid my threads.


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## DaveB (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> There is really no point to debate martial arts. It can only be tested by actual fighting, and in actual fighting, people get hurt. I really don't see why you think it is beneficial to debate martial arts to find out what is the 'absolute truth', if there really is one. What works for one person may not work for another. No one size fits all.



If you feel that way why be on a discussion forum? Why post this thread? 

Fighting tests far less than one might think, because it is entirely reliant on the relative skills of the individuals fighting. Losing doesn't make me wrong about how best to apply technique X, it just means I wasn't good enough to do it against my opponent this time. 

The kind of testing that could prove something to any degree takes masses of resources: test subjects, control groups, isolated and consistent training etc.
 However, if we discuss the theories in question as experienced, mature and honest martial artists we can at least raise enough questions and concerns to allow us to work out our individual preference. At best a consensus can be reached and all involved can learn something. At best a single answer is found for a single question. 

That is why we debate. 

Much bigger and more complex concepts than martial arts are debated all the time. That we all have a unique experience means only that.there is more reason/more to be gained if we share and compare, not less.

Honestly your hiding from debate combines with your protestations against Xue Sheng's questions to suggest a simple fear of being shown to be wrong.
A fear that indicates strong faith and attachment to your ideas, which usually implies that a degree of self worth is tied up in how special your unique ma club is. 

I dislike being disappointed (as I was when hope of a good discussion died with your refusal to discuss) so please, prove me wrong.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

DaveB said:


> If you feel that way why be on a discussion forum? Why post this thread?
> 
> Fighting tests far less than one might think, because it is entirely reliant on the relative skills of the individuals fighting. Losing doesn't make me wrong about how best to apply technique X, it just means I wasn't good enough to do it against my opponent this time.
> 
> ...



You misunderstood me.

I did not refuse to discuss. You could see my discussion with bill and kung fu wang. But i am avoiding a debate with certain personalities of this forum. I felt i could not be bothered.

You haven't mentioned what you wish to discuss.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Debating about science i can understand, but art? We don't even do the same taijiquan forms.



What makes you think martials arts aren't science, boxing after all is called the 'sweet science', there are a good many scientific principles going on in martial arts.
If you only wish to discuss things with those you think accept or approve your ideas you won't move forward, discussing things with people who have different opinions makes you think about yours. They may well be wrong but by discussing things with them, by actually being bothered to think, clarifies your thoughts.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> What makes you think martials arts aren't science, boxing after all is called the 'sweet science', there are a good many scientific principles going on in martial arts.
> If you only wish to discuss things with those you think accept or approve your ideas you won't move forward, discussing things with people who have different opinions makes you think about yours. They may well be wrong but by discussing things with them, by actually being bothered to think, clarifies your thoughts.



What makes you think that i only wish to discuss ideas with people of similar views? Kung fu wang has a completely different approach to martial arts than me and i'm happy discussing things with him.

I'm just not bothered discussing ideas with people who think i'm spreading lies or who hold the view that i wish to stroke my ego. It's simply not worth my time.

Up until now you have made many posts on this thread but not a single post is about what is your own experience of external and internal arts. I honestly think that you're not really here for a bona fide discussion.


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## Danny T (Apr 7, 2016)

If one were to take a method and practice it diligently with an attention to what is happening solely with the body is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?

If one were to take an art like Xingyi and practice external strengthening exercises within the training is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Some people find my OP acceptable (tez), some people enjoyed it (bill), some people understood it (dave), some people don't (oftheherd), and some people find it offensive (xue), and you happen to be in the latter category. I don't mind that because that's what happens in an internet forum, just don't be an *** about it or pretend you are speaking for everyone or people need protection from the lies of Zeny.
> 
> i'm sure many people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is real and what is delusion. If you don't like my post, do yourself a favour and avoid my threads.



Offended... no...you rate yourself to high, which I have known for sometime now that you do....and the fact you feel that I feel the need to protect anyone from you is pure arrogance.....but based on this response of yours....you have no idea what I said do you.... you did not really read any of it.....  you do not wish to be questioned or debated, you only want those that agree with you to respond..... ok...from now on...in the true sense of the word on mainland China...henceforth you will be "Grandmaster Zeny"..... there...feel better....

And this all could have been avoided if you only honestly answered 2 simple questions..... later Grandmaster Zeny... but be warned...post silliness and I will likely respond....


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Offended... no...you rate yourself to high, which I have known for sometime now that you do....and the fact you feel that I feel the need to protect anyone from you is pure arrogance.....but based on this response of yours....you have no idea what I said do you.... you did not really read any of it.....  you do not wish to be questioned or debated, you only want those that agree with you to respond..... ok...from now on...in the true sense of the word on mainland China...henceforth you will be "Grandmaster Zeny"..... there...feel better....
> 
> And this all could have been avoided if you only honestly answered 2 simple questions..... later Grandmaster Zeny... but be warned...post silliness and I will likely respond....



Oh no, you're back. I really can't shake you off, can I. Extremely high level sticking jin.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

Not to worry, Grandmaster Zeny, just stop quoting my posts and I stop responding


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Danny T said:


> If one were to take a method and practice it diligently with an attention to what is happening solely with the body is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?
> 
> If one were to take an art like Xingyi and practice external strengthening exercises within the training is one now practicing an internal art or is it a hybrid?



If you're practising a method, say a forward pole thrust, while paying attention to the insides of your body, i would say that it is an external art. Like i said, external art also emphasises relaxation, rooting, etc.

I don't know xingyi so i cannot comment. What kind of external strengthening exercises? You need to be more specific.


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## EddieCyrax (Apr 7, 2016)

This thread seems very "internal"......


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> What makes you think that i only wish to discuss ideas with people of similar views? Kung fu wang has a completely different approach to martial arts than me and i'm happy discussing things with him.
> 
> I'm just not bothered discussing ideas with people who think i'm spreading lies or who hold the view that i wish to stroke my ego. It's simply not worth my time.
> 
> Up until now you have made many posts on this thread but not a single post is about what is your own experience of external and internal arts. I honestly think that you're not really here for a bona fide discussion.



I think you don't actually understand what people are talking about, I put that down to English not being your first language, you are missing so many of the nuances of what people are saying and not understanding the rudeness of your own posts.
You don't want to discuss internal and external I'm afraid.


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## Danny T (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> If you're practising a method, say a forward pole thrust, while paying attention to the insides of your body, i would say that it is an external art. Like i said, external art also emphasises relaxation, rooting, etc.


Why would that be an external art?
In several 'internal arts there are weapons... poles, axes, swords utilized. What would be the difference?



Zeny said:


> I don't know xingyi so i cannot comment. What kind of external strengthening exercises? You need to be more specific.


Ok now this is where thing got dicey when you were asked to expound on some information and to be a bit more specific and your response was, "Perhaps do a google search". (this was back in post # 11)

To be more specific; using some body weight exercises as well as additional weighted motions like what the average person on an animal or agriculture farm would be doing on a day to day basis. Maybe some one doing package deliveries of 20 to 60 lbs, or maybe a different person doing some specific 20-60 or more lbs of physical fitness exercises. One does it on a day to day basis as part of their living, another does it on a day to day basis specifically to live healthier.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Debating about science i can understand, but art? We don't even do the same taijiquan forms.


Is martial training an artistic endeavor to you?  To me, it is not.  I think that believing it to be so is one of the problems leading to a poor understanding of martial training.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Why would that be an external art?
> In several 'internal arts there are weapons... poles, axes, swords utilized. What would be the difference?
> 
> 
> ...



i once read a story that in ancient times there was this not so bright student of the martial arts. His classmates constantly belittled him as he was very slow at learning the art. So one day his teacher gave him a pole and asked him to go into the jungle and just thrust at branches whole day. Several years passed, and one day someone came and challenged the school. None of the senior students could defeat the challenger. This student was watching and he thought that the challenger did not seem to be very good, so he said let him try. As the story goes, the student easily defeated the challenger using his simple branch thrusting skills. Basically he had gotten so good at it from all those years of diligent and repetitive practice. I believe this is a good example of what constitutes an external art.

An internal art is different. Let's take for example this time the chinese sword. An internalist would not be practising the sword by repetitively doing any specific thrusting or slicing movement to gain muscle memory. Instead, when the internalist moves the sword around, he pays full attention, not to any specific technique, but rather his body external and internal balance, breathing, his mental focus on the sword etc. if he extends the sword to the right, he must make sure to adjust his balance externally (by extending his other arm and adjusting his stance) and internally (imagine balancing yourself on one foot, feels like that). The sword to the right could be at any number of positions, so each adjustment is unique, and this also varies between persons as they have different builds etc. An adjustment on a day when you are tired is also different than when you are fresh and alert.

I would not personally classify weight training as either external or internal. I would simply call it... weight training.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Is martial training an artistic endeavor to you?  To me, it is not.  I think that believing it to be so is one of the problems leading to a poor understanding of martial training.



Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then.

If martial training is not an art to you, what is it? Martial science? What is the defining factor between art and science?


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## EddieCyrax (Apr 7, 2016)

As Xue Sheng discussed in post #2 of this thread, these things are so inter-twined I do not see a difference between them.

It all comes down to training methodologies and what a practitioner focuses on......even then the internal focus is utilized in external movements and vise versa...external focus requires control of the internal functions....

The longer one studies any martial art all these things are realized....  IMHO....


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I think you don't actually understand what people are talking about, I put that down to English not being your first language, you are missing so many of the nuances of what people are saying and not understanding the rudeness of your own posts.
> You don't want to discuss internal and external I'm afraid.



Now that last remark is just an unfair comment, coming from someone who posted many times on the thread and none of those posts touches on the topic of this thread. The google remark for the other dude was not intended to be rude, although unfortunately it came out that way. But when i was rude to you, it was wholly intentional.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then.
> 
> If martial training is not an art to you, what is it?



Your story doesn't make a lot of sense actually.




Zeny said:


> An internal art is different. Let's take for example this time the chinese sword. An internalist would not be practising the sword by repetitively doing any specific thrusting or slicing movement to gain muscle memory. Instead, when the internalist moves the sword around, he pays full attention, not to any specific technique, but rather his body external and internal balance, breathing, his mental focus on the sword etc. if he extends the sword to the right, he must make sure to adjust his balance externally (by extending his other arm and adjusting his stance) and internally (imagine balancing yourself on one foot, feels like that).




I can tell you quite emphatically that many if not most karateka move exactly as you describe yet you describe it are 'external'. I'm not sure you understand what karate for example actually is.




Zeny said:


> Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then..






Absolutely not, English isn't an art it's a language. Good writers are that because of imagination, practice, talent and a few others things. _Writing is the art_ not the language. Being fluent in a language doesn't make you a good writer. I think this is why you are confused about other martial arts


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Your story doesn't make a lot of sense actually.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Karate is descended from white crane, which is a hybrid art, is it no? I'm not a karateka so how would i know what karate is? It has so many 'ryu's which i can't even spell properly. Have i made any comment on karate as if i know the art intimately? Again your remark is just unfair.

On the english point, if you want to draw fine lines like that, then a martial art is not an art, fighting is. Then we will be talking about martial science, and the art of fighting. I don't see the utility in such fine lines or play of words, but that's just me.

Quite obviously both of us talk on very different wave lengths, but you sure love my thread, don't you. Last i roughly counted, you posted 11 times. Please don't go and double check whether i counted correctly or not as if i'm wrong it would be rather embarrassing. Are you like trying to win some 'top poster' award?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> i once read a story that in ancient times there was this not so bright student of the martial arts. His classmates constantly belittled him as he was very slow at learning the art. So one day his teacher gave him a pole and asked him to go into the jungle and just thrust at branches whole day. Several years passed, and one day someone came and challenged the school. None of the senior students could defeat the challenger. This student was watching and he thought that the challenger did not seem to be very good, so he said let him try. As the story goes, the student easily defeated the challenger using his simple branch thrusting skills. Basically he had gotten so good at it from all those years of diligent and repetitive practice. I believe this is a good example of what constitutes an external art.
> 
> An internal art is different. Let's take for example this time the chinese sword. An internalist would not be practising the sword by repetitively doing any specific thrusting or slicing movement to gain muscle memory. Instead, when the internalist moves the sword around, he pays full attention, not to any specific technique, but rather his body external and internal balance, breathing, his mental focus on the sword etc. if he extends the sword to the right, he must make sure to adjust his balance externally (by extending his other arm and adjusting his stance) and internally (imagine balancing yourself on one foot, feels like that). The sword to the right could be at any number of positions, so each adjustment is unique, and this also varies between persons as they have different builds etc. An adjustment on a day when you are tired is also different than when you are fresh and alert.
> 
> I would not personally classify weight training as either external or internal. I would simply call it... weight training.


Your example of the sword is only possible after extensive physical training to understand the techniques and methodology of the weapon, and build that physical skill and familiarity.  Only then can one rise to a higher awareness with it.

To think that one can simply pick up a sword, without prior experience, and be at that higher level is utterly unrealistic.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Oh yes, definitely it is an artistic endeavour. It is similar to, say english, which is also an art. Of course you have spelling, grammatical rules and so on, but good writers can produce bestsellers while bad writers can't. Also new words are added to the language every now and then.
> 
> If martial training is not an art to you, what is it? Martial science? What is the defining factor between art and science?


The term "art" in martial arts does not refer to artistic expression.  It refers to a methodology and sophistication and yes, creativity too in the context of building useful and effective skills.  There is a nuance in the use of the word in the English language.  But it is not art in the way a ballet or a painting is art.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Your example of the sword is only possible after extensive physical training to understand the techniques and methodology of the weapon, and build that physical skill and familiarity.  Only then can one rise to a higher awareness with it.
> 
> To think that one can simply pick up a sword, without prior experience, and be at that higher level is utterly unrealistic.



Thats accurate from an 'external' point of view, but not an 'internal' one. In my view, an internalist trains balance and awareness from the first moment he picks up the sword, and not any thrusting or slicing technique.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Thats accurate from an 'external' point of you, but not an 'internal' one. In my view, an internalist trains balance and awareness from the first moment he picks up the sword, not any thrusting or slicing method.


Well, lucky for you this modern age we live in is very unlikely to require your use of the sword to defend the life of yourself or a loved one or your village.  Otherwise you might have the misfortune of needing to test your theory, with life or death in the outcome.  I put my money on the other guy, all other things being equal.


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## Tez3 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Karate is descended from white crane, which is a hybrid art, is it no? I'm not a karateka so how would i know what karate is? It has so many 'ryu's which i can't even spell properly. Have i made any comment on karate as if i know the art intimately? Again your remark is just unfair.
> 
> On the english point, if you want to draw fine lines like that, then a martial art is not an art, fighting is. Then we will be talking about martial science, and the art of fighting. I don't see the utility in such fine lines or play of words, but that's just me.
> 
> Quite obviously both of us talk on very different wave lengths, but you sure love my thread, don't you. Last i roughly counted, you posted 11 times. Please don't go and double check whether i counted correctly or not as if i'm wrong it would be rather embarrassing. Are you like trying to win some 'top poster' award?




Sooo, you complain I don't post about the subject of your OP but when I do you think ridiculing karate is the way to go?

Why are you trying to make this a personal argument? You are yet again being rude, there's no pleasing you is there? We are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Perhaps you should ask yourself what your purpose is being here.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, lucky for you this modern age we live in is very unlikely to require your use of the sword to defend the life of yourself or a loved one or your village.  Otherwise you might have the misfortune of needing to test your theory, with life or death in the outcome.  I put my money on the other guy, all other things being equal.



I guess we will never find out. To each his own, i suppose.


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## EddieCyrax (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Thats accurate from an 'external' point of view, but not an 'internal' one. In my view, an internalist trains balance and awareness from the first moment he picks up the sword, and not any thrusting or slicing technique.



This can be said about any technique or human motor skill.  From walking, biking, punching, kicking, bo staff, sword, chewing gum, etc...

Balance is a function of stance and structure.  This is in all martial arts.  

Generally the first thing taught to beginners is stance and breathing.....At least in every school I have ever walked into.

I would say respect and awareness are required to practice any weapon, be it gun, knife, staff, chucks, sword, etc......External or Internal..


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Sooo, you complain I don't post about the subject of your OP but when I do you think ridiculing karate is the way to go?
> 
> Why are you trying to make this a personal argument? You are yet again being rude, there's no pleasing you is there? We are damned if we do, damned if we don't. Perhaps you should ask yourself what your purpose is being here.



I told you we don't speak on the same wave length. When i said karate has many 'ryu's and i can't spell them it is a statement of fact, not ridicule, and yet you take it as a ridicule. See what i mean when i said we don't speak on the same wave length? You started this yourself as a personal argument. I'm not turning it into one.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I dunno, but i feel this post wasn't especially pleasant, so i don't feel inclined to respond to him. Thus the subsequent google comment.
> 
> ...



If that post offended you I am sorry. Could you tell me exactly what is was that offended you.



Zeny said:


> Some people find my OP acceptable (tez), some people enjoyed it (bill), some people understood it (dave), *some people don't (oftheherd),* and some people find it offensive (xue), and you happen to be in the latter category. I don't mind that because that's what happens in an internet forum, just don't be an *** about it or pretend you are speaking for everyone or people need protection from the lies of Zeny.
> 
> i'm sure many people on this forum are intelligent enough to decide for themselves what is real and what is delusion. If you don't like my post, do yourself a favour and avoid my threads.



Your are right that I didn't understand.  That was why I asked the questions I did.  If you are unable to explain it further, I will just let it go.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

EddieCyrax said:


> This can be said about any technique or human motor skill.  From walking, biking, punching, kicking, bo staff, sword, chewing gum, etc...
> 
> Balance is a function of stance and structure.  This is in all martial arts.
> 
> ...



If you are standing upright and you say you are balanced, you are not wrong. But 'internal' balance goes way deeper than that.


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## Zeny (Apr 7, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> If that post offended you I am sorry. Could you tell me exactly what is was that offended you.
> 
> 
> 
> Your are right that I didn't understand.  That was why I asked the questions I did.  If you are unable to explain it further, I will just let it go.



No worries, just the manner you phrased your sentence, i suppose. Anyway ask ahead what you don't understand, and i will respond tomorrow as it is really late now (2:20 am) and i need to go to sleep.


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## oaktree (Apr 7, 2016)

For me internal vs external well right now I am wondering if a southern Chinese girl is better or a northern Chinese girl is better both have their pros and cons
Defining internal is such a tricky thing, as someone who does external can also do the same thing, but I feel an external manifestation of the same technique would be shallow in comparison if we are comparing an internalist and externalist of different levels. Let's use judo as a reference point as it does have in lower levels definitely external as a lot of lesser experience throwers would use more mudcle in there technique as well as proper body leverage, as the judoka becomes more experience and older he becomes softer more internal his timing and off balancing becomes more precise and effortlessly and the principle concept of ju is used. The idea of internal arts, reverses that direction and say Taijiquan focuses on relaxing and sinking forces to shape the body, do they become more internal or does their internal mesh with their external making it hard to tell. The point is southern Chinese girls are smaller in height and have a better ability at cooking with a wok while northern girls tend to be quite funny at times. I hope that helps


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

oaktree said:


> For me internal vs external well right now I am wondering if a southern Chinese girl is better or a northern Chinese girl is better both have their pros and cons
> Defining internal is such a tricky thing, as someone who does external can also do the same thing, but I feel an external manifestation of the same technique would be shallow in comparison if we are comparing an internalist and externalist of different levels. Let's use judo as a reference point as it does have in lower levels definitely external as a lot of lesser experience throwers would use more mudcle in there technique as well as proper body leverage, as the judoka becomes more experience and older he becomes softer more internal his timing and off balancing becomes more precise and effortlessly and the principle concept of ju is used. The idea of internal arts, reverses that direction and say Taijiquan focuses on relaxing and sinking forces to shape the body, do they become more internal or does their internal mesh with their external making it hard to tell. The point is southern Chinese girls are smaller in height and have a better ability at cooking with a wok while northern girls tend to be quite funny at times. I hope that helps



Kind of like comparing a young Olympic Judoka gold medalist to Kyuzo Mifune kind of thing.....or external goes to internal....

As for this bit



oaktree said:


> The point is southern Chinese girls are smaller in height and have a better ability at cooking with a wok while northern girls tend to be quite funny at times. I hope that helps



Not my experience


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## EddieCyrax (Apr 7, 2016)

Zeny said:


> If you are standing upright and you say you are balanced, you are not wrong. But 'internal' balance goes way deeper than that.


Agreed.

My point, all martial art training should ends up in the same place over time.  Thus I see no need to categorize styles in this manner.

Admittedly some people get stuck in what they like to do.....

Just a matter of how you get there and the area one wishes to focus on first.


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## mograph (Apr 7, 2016)

Personally, I don't find much utility in making a distinction between "internal" and "external" _martial arts_.

There is little consensus in the martial definitions of the terms when referring to arts, and the definitions are _constructs_, no matter what some would like to believe. 

In this context, I see no direct relationship from being "internal" or "external" to anything concrete, such as the body. All martial arts use muscle, bones, tendons and intentions (internal to the body), and perform observable actions (external to the body). Basically ... a martial art is internal or external to _what_? 

Practitioners use the terms for their own ends to suit their own values: some internal stylists may look at external stylists as crude, simplistic or ignorant, while some external stylists may look at internal stylists as naive, ineffectual or deceptive. In other words, _*identifying*_ with these constructs can lead to the reinforcement of our existing biases.
Just what we need: another way to separate us and create tribes. Minimal group paradigm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Now ... can an art, style or technique be practiced in a _manner_ that is more "internal" or "external?" I think so. I would define that distinction as being (respectively) _less_ or _more_ obvious to the eye. It would be a spectrum. An art could be practiced "internally" or "externally" at different times, to suit different training & learning purposes. 

Defining an art as one or the other risks losing sight of the opposite within the art's methods. For example, if we categorize taijiquan as "internal," we may discount the value of an external (easily observable) methods that could benefit a taijiquan practitioner.

to that end (#5), maybe a more useful distinction would be "internal" or "external" _methods_, methods available to _all_ martial arts. Also, as EddieCyrax wrote, these methods would be intertwined within an art.

So ... I don't think that it's useful to refer to a _martial art_ as internal or external, but it may be useful to describe various martial arts training _methods_ as internal or external, based on how easily _observable_ they are. This would encourage practitioners to learn from each other and avoid the growing divisiveness which we see all around us.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 7, 2016)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
This thread is developing a fair bit of sniping, personal attacks, and general rudeness.
Please stop it, or the thread will be locked, and points will be issued.
This is not a schoolyard playground. Let's not act like school children.


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## oaktree (Apr 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Kind of like comparing a young Olympic Judoka gold medalist to Kyuzo Mifune kind of thing.....or external goes to internal....
> 
> As for this bit
> 
> ...


Yes the young judoka tend to muscle there way more I'm thinking guys doing squats for power on their legs and dead lifts while the older Japanese guy transition is smooth and refined like a new externalist would be Johnny walker black a bit harsh while a new internalist would be a 12 year single malt both similar in years yet the single malt is more refined on the palate. Now Johnny walker blue is a more refined scotch so it is in a way internal same as an externalist becomes internal, however a single malt scotch of say a 25 year would be also very refined. I guess northern Chinese girls are more single malt and southern Chinese girls are more blend and as of lately I am interested in blends especially when blends say I can have single malts at the same time


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## mograph (Apr 7, 2016)

oaktree said:


> ... like a new externalist would be Johnny walker black a bit harsh while a new internalist would be a 12 year single malt both similar in years yet the single malt is more refined on the palate. Now Johnny walker blue is a more refined scotch so it is in a way internal same as an externalist becomes internal, however a single malt scotch of say a 25 year would be also very refined.


I don't think the internet is the right place for this particular discussion -- it needs to be evaluated in depth, and in person.


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## oaktree (Apr 7, 2016)

mograph said:


> I don't think the internet is the right place for this particular discussion -- it needs to be evaluated in depth, and in person.


You supply the shots I supply the girls I think you can train one external I'll train one internal and we will see which one mud wrestles the best.


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## Danny T (Apr 7, 2016)

Internal is from the Taoist philosophies of China
External is from the Buddist philosophies originating in India.
The symbol for 'domestic' is 內 and also means Esoteric or of the inside group - Internal.  
The symbol for 'foreign' is 外 which also signifies Exoteric or of the outside group - External.
Some martial arts express Taoist (that is, "domestic") philosophical principles. 
Some martial arts express Buddhist principles. 
Since Shaolin, like Buddhism, came from India, this makes Shaolin and Shaolin-derived arts as "foreign" arts.

Internal martial systems are generally those that were developed within China.
External martial systems are generally those that were developed or derived from outside of China.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

There are multiple definitions of internal and external, take a look at the Epitaph of Wang Zhengnan and you will see it show up there, for the first time in China and it is more of a protest against the QIng (outsiders) that anything else. The Buddhist vs Taoist thing. It changed from there


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## mograph (Apr 7, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Internal is from the Taoist philosophies of China
> External is from the Buddist philosophies originating in India.


I'll buy that: internal or external to _China_.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 7, 2016)

mograph said:


> I'll buy that: internal or external to _China_.



It is pretty much how it started


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 7, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are multiple definitions of internal and external,


Agree! Such as:

- Buddhism stay at home, it's called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal". Taoist travel around, it's called "外家(Wai Jia) - external".
- Beginning MA person is called "外家(Wai Jia) - external". Advanced MA person is called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal".

For example, if you have

- computer science degree and you are a programmer, you will call yourself "内家(Nei Jia) - internal" programmer.
- mathematics degree or business degree and you are a programmer, you will call yourself "外家(Wai Jia) - external" programmer.

In other words, "external" is a term that you use to look down on somebody in order to feel superior yourself. It's not a friendly or polite term at all.


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## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In other words, "external" is a term that you use to look down on somebody in order to feel superior yourself. It's not a friendly or polite term at all.



That's the feeling I think we got from when the OP used it and why the posts after.
I knew an instructor who would when told what style someone was would only ever ask if they could fight, he never cared what style, how long they'd be training etc just whether they could fight!


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 8, 2016)

Zeny said:


> No worries, just the manner you phrased your sentence, i suppose. Anyway ask ahead what you don't understand, and i will respond tomorrow as it is really late now (2:20 am) and i need to go to sleep.



OK, first of all, there are many transliterations of the different oriental languages words for an 'inner force.'  Chi, qi, ki, or my normal one, gi, are just a few of what I would say are the most common.  That is why I asked what I did in my first sentence, and qualified it as I did.

Now my thoughts on what you call internal versus external.  Neither you nor anyone else is required to agree, disagree, or even comment. 

I believe what you are referring to as internal, is one aspect of gi.  I think gi is attainable by anyone. In fact, many probably exercise some gi without realizing it.  I think it is enhanced by breathing exercises and meditation.  It is not mystical in the sense the word mystical is usually used, since as I said, I think anyone can attain the use of gi.  I also think there is a faith factor; if you don't believe in it, you will probably never attain its use. 

I believe that those who practice a martial art can become very proficient in that art without gi; a good athlete is just that, a good athlete who can use many martial art tools very well.  But I also believe they would be better with gi.  Since I believe that way, I would never discount a person who does not have gi, or believes that they don't.  My art is Hapkido, we tend to move into an attack so we must be both fast and accurate.  I used to tell students that they should not discount a martial artist who learns an art which employs blocking, punching and kicking.  If that is all you train, you will probably be very good at it.  All that to say I would never look down on someone who uses external (as you put it) methods to employ their martial art.

As I believe, gi allows one to focus power, apply unexpected strength, increase speed, and 'inner balance' (for lack of a better term).  It allows one to remain calm no matter the external circumstances.  It allow fluid movement.  When I was practicing my art regularly, if you had put me in a stressful situation, I would automatically begin controlled breathing, without even realizing it.  That would help in use of my gi.

As I said, I believe gi is not mystical nor magic.  So unless you have learned how to attain and apply gi to a degree I haven't seen nor experienced before, you cannot pick up a strange implement (in your example, a sword) and automatically know all possible applications of that implement as a weapon against a previously unknown fighting-trained opponent.  If you have truly achieved that, please enlighten all of us as to how you achieved that, so those of us who wish to do so, can also learn.

If what I have said so far sounds right to you, let me know.  If not, then I have no further comments in this thread since we are too far apart in our beliefs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 8, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Hence, when an internal martial artist engages a person who has not trained in the internal arts, the internal martial artist can exploit all the '*internal imbalance*' of that person. That is why sometimes an internal martial artist can be seen taking down a person seemingly without any effort.


If there is a such thing as "internal imbalance", wrestlers and Judo guys would talk about it all the time. That's not the case. Why?


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 8, 2016)

Six pages and I still don't know what the hell you mean by "internal" art.


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## Tez3 (Apr 8, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Six pages and I still don't know what the hell you mean by "internal" art.



I know! The reason I clicked on to this when I saw it on the 'new posts' list is because I thought I'd learn about something. If it can't be explained in words but only demonstrated I'm fine with that, I'm fine with whatever the experienced practitioners say, it's their art after and I'm just a nosy martial artist but being told to 'Google it' just seemed somewhat odd.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 8, 2016)

Neijia  内家; _Nèi jiā (short description) _

Waijia  外家; _Wài jiā_

Take it for what it is worth


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## mograph (Apr 8, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Neijia  内家; _Nèi jiā (short description) _
> 
> Waijia  外家; _Wài jiā_
> 
> Take it for what it is worth


Where were you on page one, dude? 

... but then we wouldn't have gotten to scotch and mud wrestling. Carry on!


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## Ironbear24 (Apr 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I know! The reason I clicked on to this when I saw it on the 'new posts' list is because I thought I'd learn about something. If it can't be explained in words but only demonstrated I'm fine with that, I'm fine with whatever the experienced practitioners say, it's their art after and I'm just a nosy martial artist but being told to 'Google it' just seemed somewhat odd.



Especially being told to "go google it" by a person who is apparently knowledgeable on the subject. I really don't understand why anyone would make a thread about something, then act appalled when people ask them questions about said thread.


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## Zeny (Apr 8, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> OK, first of all, there are many transliterations of the different oriental languages words for an 'inner force.'  Chi, qi, ki, or my normal one, gi, are just a few of what I would say are the most common.  That is why I asked what I did in my first sentence, and qualified it as I did.
> 
> Now my thoughts on what you call internal versus external.  Neither you nor anyone else is required to agree, disagree, or even comment.
> 
> ...



Very good post, thank you. I’m sorry that we got off the wrong foot. If you have posted this from the start I would have given you a comprehensive reply, like what I’m doing now.

I also believe in chi, and I also believe that practising chi is absolutely essential. However, most of the time I refrain from expressing my views on it on this forum because chi cannot be measured, seen, smelt or heard, so it would be difficult to discuss chi with someone who has never felt it or who believes it does not exist. I may also be accused of spreading “lies” or “untruths” about martial arts or taijiquan in particular, if not by XS (he believes in chi), then by other people.

Practising chi is beneficial to every martial artist, whether external or internal or hybrid. There are people who practise it to acquire a skill to withstand bladed objects (heard it, but never seen it) and there are also people who practise it to attain better health (know of it, but I never practise it that way).

I started training chi only recently, when I realised that I cannot ignore it any longer. Why? Because I realised that how I focus, direct, or spread my chi, affects my body in quite a material way as to make quite a big difference in my performance during push hands practice. If i focus my chi completely in my dan tian, my body becomes especially stable (like a wall), but mobility is greatly affected. If i focus my chi on one hand, that hand becomes especially strong, but sluggish and heavy and my movement with that hand is easily detected by the opponent. However, if I spread my chi evenly throughout my body (one aspect of “internal” balance, so to speak), my movements become light, nimble and fast, and my response and reflex times are highly improved. It has come to a point where I must consciously make sure this spreading of chi is done even before first skin to skin contact with my push hands partner.

Anyway, just my 2 cents on chi. I quite dislike discussing it on an internet forum, for the reasons I have stated above. But the heaviness and lightness of parts of the body caused by the difference in concentration of chi can be easily demonstrated in person. The difference in your view and my view is that, as you said you believe internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! Such as:
> 
> - Buddhism stay at home, it's called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal". Taoist travel around, it's called "外家(Wai Jia) - external".
> - Beginning MA person is called "外家(Wai Jia) - external". Advanced MA person is called "内家(Nei Jia) - internal".
> ...



For the avoidance of doubt, I never advanced the superiority of either internal over external or external over internal. I also don’t believe my posts reflect such view. My view is simply that:

1) when training, we need to know whether our training falls into external or internal, so that we can maximise the benefits of our training. For example, in my response to Bill’s post above, I said his empty mind training falls into “internal”, but if i’m an external martial artist, I would personally prefer to train the external methods rather than mix internal into it. However, this is simply my personal preference, because like I said, I have no knowledge of and cannot comment whether such “cross training” is more beneficial than simply specialising in either external or internal. Bill’s post enlightened me and made me realise I may not be correct in my approach. It may well be that what works for one person may not work for another.

2) if we know how the externalists and the internalists work, this will lead to a better understanding on how to counter them

3) knowing external and internal also leads to a better understanding of our own body and how it acquires skills, so we can practise in a manner that leads to maximum benefit per minute spent


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## Zeny (Apr 8, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> I know! The reason I clicked on to this when I saw it on the 'new posts' list is because I thought I'd learn about something. If it can't be explained in words but only demonstrated I'm fine with that, I'm fine with whatever the experienced practitioners say, it's their art after and I'm just a nosy martial artist but being told to 'Google it' just seemed somewhat odd.



That sounds to me like a veiled snipe, are you trying to provoke me to start again? I would be more than happy to, considering what I think of you, but we have been asked to stop. At least Xue Sheng posts informative things in between his criticisms of me, but your posts are pure rubbish.


----------



## Zeny (Apr 8, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Especially being told to "go google it" by a person who is apparently knowledgeable on the subject. I really don't understand why anyone would make a thread about something, then act appalled when people ask them questions about said thread.



I thought I have made clear that my rudeness by that google comment was not intentional. Why do you keep harping on it? Let’s put this to rest once and for all:

Oftheherd, I’m sorry by that google comment, I did not realise I was rude and the rudeness was not intentional.


----------



## Zeny (Apr 8, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Six pages and I still don't know what the hell you mean by "internal" art.



I don’t really know how to make myself more clear. But if you ask specific questions I can try answer them. In any event, there are many people who disagree with me, and I thought I should point that out.


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## Zeny (Apr 8, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If there is a such thing as "internal imbalance", wrestlers and Judo guys would talk about it all the time. That's not the case. Why?



That’s a very good point. I have no clue, maybe I really am delusional.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I thought I have made clear that my rudeness by that google comment was not intentional. Why do you keep harping on it? Let’s put this to rest once and for all:
> 
> Oftheherd, I’m sorry by that google comment, I did not realise I was rude and the rudeness was not intentional.



Thanks for the apology.  But as it turns out, I have a rather thick skin.  And sometimes I know can get in a hurry and not express myself quite how I intend.

Whether gi is an aspect of internal or internal is an aspect of gi may be debated, but if one's belief in gi or internal is strong, and especially if experienced, I think it may not be significant.  Or may be very significant, depending on a particular person's belief and ability to use it.  Just what I think.

I personally don't mind discussing gi as long as people are respectful.  The problem is that like many things, one may believe it or not, and that belief may have to depend on what one feels within oneself, not scientific proofs.  For that reason, it is hard to establish a frame of reference, and to explain something that may be experienced but difficult to describe. 

To those who have been told there is no such thing as gi, and accepted that as truth, what I have said probably sounds like gobbledygook, or worse.  That is their right, as is mine to believe in it.  I don't think them less of a person.  Of course if people become disrespectful, or speak derisively, I will probably just withdraw from the discussion.

FYI, you might want to consider if your rising to what you perceive as personal (or even real challenges) will really help you explain your beliefs, or fuel a monkey dance.  There are indeed people here who would enjoy a virtual monkey dance.  I only say that because it is something I have to remind myself of often.

Again, thanks for explaining yourself further.


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Thanks for the apology.  But as it turns out, I have a rather thick skin.  And sometimes I know can get in a hurry and not express myself quite how I intend.
> 
> Whether gi is an aspect of internal or internal is an aspect of gi may be debated, but if one's belief in gi or internal is strong, and especially if experienced, I think it may not be significant.  Or may be very significant, depending on a particular person's belief and ability to use it.  Just what I think.
> 
> ...



Do you mind to share how you practise your chi to achieve the abilities you mentioned? I am really interested to know.


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## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Especially being told to "go google it" by a person who is apparently knowledgeable on the subject. I really don't understand why anyone would make a thread about something, then act appalled when people ask them questions about said thread.



and to keep harping on at posters who question him. Not everything is about him. Admin has asked that posters be polite, to continue to make personal comments isn't good.

'A veiled snipe', we have a lot of snipe, they are seen in the wetlands here. I am a member of the RSPB, but have never seen a veiled one.


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> and to keep harping on at posters who question him. Not everything is about him. Admin has asked that posters be polite, to continue to make personal comments isn't good.
> 
> 'A veiled snipe', we have a lot of snipe, they are seen in the wetlands here. I am a member of the RSPB, but have never seen a veiled one.



A most useless post.


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## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> A most useless post.



You are determined to be insulting aren't you? Snipe are a UK bird, why you mentioned it in your post directed at me I have no idea. I also don't know why you take offense at any questioning, I'm actually assuming it's a carry on from the other thread where we questioned your 'no touch KO's' and techniques.
I've actually found posts on here that are educational and very interesting, yet you persist in trying to bait people into arguing with you. It's not all about you, the idea of internal and external is one that interests a lot of martial artists who don't come from Chinese styles, rather than snapping at them for asking questions it would be better to educate. Contributing to a thread means not just posting up what you know but what you don't know in the hope of answers from experienced and helpful martial artists, Google just doesn't explain properly in the way that a martial artist can.


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> You are determined to be insulting aren't you? Snipe are a UK bird, why you mentioned it in your post directed at me I have no idea. I also don't know why you take offense at any questioning, I'm actually assuming it's a carry on from the other thread where we questioned your 'no touch KO's' and techniques.
> I've actually found posts on here that are educational and very interesting, yet you persist in trying to bait people into arguing with you. It's not all about you, the idea of internal and external is one that interests a lot of martial artists who don't come from Chinese styles, rather than snapping at them for asking questions it would be better to educate. Contributing to a thread means not just posting up what you know but what you don't know in the hope of answers from experienced and helpful martial artists, Google just doesn't explain properly in the way that a martial artist can.



Good, only now your post starts to make some sense.


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## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Good, only now your post starts to make some sense.



then you really didn't read my other posts before you got on your high horse..........


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> then you really didn't read my other posts before you got on your high horse..........



Your other posts don't make sense to me and/or don't seem to contribute anything at all. Basically waste of thread space.


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## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Your other posts don't make sense to me and/or don't seem to contribute anything at all. Basically waste of thread space.



Well they say G-d loves a trier and my, you are trying............


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## Tez3 (Apr 9, 2016)




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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> That sounds to me like a veiled snipe, are you trying to provoke me to start again? I would be more than happy to, considering what I think of you, but we have been asked to stop. At least Xue Sheng posts informative things in between his criticisms of me, but your posts are pure rubbish.



Please. I posted the information because you  refused to post it and other posters were still confused as to what you were talking about. And it you do not want me in your post then do not mention me. I have done my best "Grand master Zeny" to not comment on any of your posts here for awhile, so please refrain from posting sarcastic comment about me...thank you


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 9, 2016)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*
Please keep the conversation adult, professional, and friendly, in keeping with the TOS that you all agreed to when you created your accounts.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> Do you mind to share how you practise your chi to achieve the abilities you mentioned? I am really interested to know.



As I said before, I believe it comes from breathing and meditation.  Also acceptance that it exists and can enhance one's abilities.  I also think it is not magic.


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## oaktree (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I also believe in chi, and I also believe that practising chi is absolutely essential.


As important as Qi is I feel it is not as essential compared to Jing, and Yi and Xin. No matter how much Qi you build up internally or externally, if your mind is not calm and you are using your Jing you will be like a crazy man spending all his money on things.


Zeny said:


> chi cannot be measured, seen, smelt or heard, so it would be difficult to discuss chi with someone who has never felt it or who believes it does not exist.


Well what about Tian Qi it is weather and seen, and heard. For a list of words that use Qi we can see the word can be defined, smelt(especially after someone eats onions)口气kouqi also means tone I guess when gas comes from your butt the letter changes to a P instead of a Q because I guess P comes before Q in the alphabet.
You can look here for the Hanzi
Cojak Hanzi Dictionary: Unicode/Hanzi Search: U+6C14 (气)


Zeny said:


> If i focus my chi completely in my dan tian, my body becomes especially stable (like a wall), but mobility is greatly affecte


Qinggong轻功 I guess you don't practice. I am wondering about mobility being affected as perhaps there is stagnation. 
When a man has to much sex in Chinese medicine his legs are weak as he looses to much Jing. 


Zeny said:


> If i focus my chi on one hand, that hand becomes especially strong, but sluggish and heavy and my movement with that hand is easily detected by the opponent


I thought when you move Qi to the hand it merges with Li giving you the word 力气 meaning strength. I don't think being strong means slow. However if you have 力气 you are not wet like a noodle but Peng.


Zeny said:


> It has come to a point where I must consciously make sure this spreading of chi is done even before first skin to skin contact with my push hands partner.


I think if you are at higher stages of Qi cultivation the Weiqi卫气 would spread even naturally now as for it expanding and contracting it depends on the focus actually there is more to it but I am lazy.


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## oaktree (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> heaviness and lightness of parts of the body caused by the difference in concentration of chi can be easily demonstrated in person. The difference in your view and my view is that, as you said you believe internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.


To add some, I find heaviness in the body with relations to Qi a martial context in relation to iron body type of focus, in the more health side of things the consensus is you don't want to be heavy as heavy implies blockage and stagnation. When I teach martial we talk about sinking and rooting which _*may *_seem heavy but the Qi is still flowing smoothly. We for sure do not want to be heavy in shoulder and neck or head areas. 
The thing _*internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.*_
I don't understand this sentence.


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

oaktree said:


> To add some, I find heaviness in the body with relations to Qi a martial context in relation to iron body type of focus, in the more health side of things the consensus is you don't want to be heavy as heavy implies blockage and stagnation. When I teach martial we talk about sinking and rooting which _*may *_seem heavy but the Qi is still flowing smoothly. We for sure do not want to be heavy in shoulder and neck or head areas.
> The thing _*internal is one aspect of chi, but I believe chi is one aspect of internal.*_
> I don't understand this sentence.



What I mean is, let’s say I have three “internal” tools, chi is only one of them. Putting it another way, chi is a sub-set of internal.


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Please. I posted the information because you  refused to post it and other posters were still confused as to what you were talking about. And it you do not want me in your post then do not mention me. I have done my best "Grand master Zeny" to not comment on any of your posts here for awhile, so please refrain from posting sarcastic comment about me...thank you



Ok, I can agree with that.


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## oaktree (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> What I mean is, let’s say I have three “internal” tools, chi is only one of them. Putting it another way, chi is a sub-set of internal.


You are refering to San bao三寶 of those 3 Jing is the most important is the essence it is the foundation.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2016)

Believe it or not I have involved with "internal vs. external" discussion for more than 20 years in another "internal CMA forum". My observation is:

Internal guys only want to talk about "push". When you mention about kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, they will consider those as "low level". The general conclusion from those kind of discussion are "internal" can help you to develop your body. But it may not affect directly to how you may apply your MA skill. The "internal" is pretty much equal to "functional training".

For example, in all those "internal vs. external" discussions, not even a single person has addressed how "internal" can help you to execute your:

- hip throw, single leg, firemen's carry, ...
- roundhouse kick, side kick, ...
- hook punch, uppercut, ...
- wrist lock, elbow lock, shoulder lock, ...
- side mount, arm bar, leg bar, choke, ...
- ...

Since I'm not interested in "push". I soon lost interested in those discussion. Even today, I still don't understand why people are interested in "push" that much and want to devote all their life training time to develop such skill.

It's pretty much like the game that you had played when you were a kid. Your hand hold on your opponent's hand. You can move your hand any way you want. if you can make your opponent's foot to move, you win. I just don't see this kind of skill can be any useful in fighting.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 9, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Internal guys only want to talk about "push". When you mention about kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, they will consider those as "low level". The general conclusion from those kind of discussion are "internal" can help you to develop your body. But it may not affect directly to how you may apply your MA skill. The "internal" is pretty much equal to "functional training".



I'm an internal guy, have been for more than 20 years, Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and a bit of Baguazhang...... I have no idea who you have been talking to, but it was no one I seriously trained with, not even my taiji shifu who has trained taiji and only taiji for over 50 years,. and I do not think his sifu (Tung Ying Chieh), thought kicks, kicks, punches, shuaijiao, and qinna were low level, actually, Tung Shigong was rather fond of Qinna.

Do we push? Yup, its called push hands and it is a training tool...that is all.

All internals I have trained have kicks, punches, Shuaijiao, and qinna. Admittedly not much of a ground game (if you are talking things like BJJ), but not many traditional CMA style do. And I don't know of any internal guys I have seriously trained with who look at kicks, punches, Shuaijiao, and qinna as low level, not even my shifu. However he may look at the way some apply kicks, punches, Shuaijiao and qinna as low level.....and I do to sometime.


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## oaktree (Apr 9, 2016)

It's not that those things are low level technique, the question internalist must ask themselves how can I apply these techniques internally with the concepts and theory. For example some use muscle and power to apply a qinna, where an internalist would apply off balance, redirect and subtle ways to apply qinna. I think there is a misunderstanding that the push is what is internal and may be some people all they feel is as martial as say internalist get but the deeper levels is making the qinna and kicks more internal and or smaller in movement


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## Zeny (Apr 9, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Believe it or not I have involved with "internal vs. external" discussion for more than 20 years in another "internal CMA forum". My observation is:
> 
> Internal guys only want to talk about "push". When you mention about kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game, they will consider those as "low level". The general conclusion from those kind of discussion are "internal" can help you to develop your body. But it may not affect directly to how you may apply your MA skill. The "internal" is pretty much equal to "functional training".
> 
> ...



That’s an extremely valid observation. Unfortunately, many internalists, as you say, only talk about “push”. I myself am guilty of this. Some even go further and join “push hands” competitions, where the aim is to fell the opponent or both parties stand inside a circle and the aim is for one party to “push” the other party out of the circle. I myself also find these “push hands” competitions rather pointless. You can “push" another person out of a circle, so what? In doing so you may have thrown your whole body weight at your opponent (which is dangerous) or exposed your body to any number of potential strikes (which is also dangerous). That’s why many people don’t view an internal art like taijiquan very seriously as a martial art, and you can’t quite blame them for having that view.

I have personally met a couple local taijiquan instructors of my style who told me, Zeny, we have been there and done that, “sung” and “use soft to overcome hard” does not work, we have trained this for many years and when we go out to cross hands with martial artists of other styles we have our asses handed back to us. So you see, even people who are supposed to be “internalists” also share your view. My former fuzhou white crane teacher also said, if he can punch someone and make them bleed, why “push”? And another friend also said to me, Zeny, many people purport to train sung and softness, but when they join "push hands" competitions, their movements are no different from wrestlers.

The problem is, in my view, many internalists are barking up the wrong tree. They don’t practise an “internal” martial art the way it should be practised. In an earlier post, I said, when an internalist engages, say myself, if you are slow I am slower, if you are fast I am faster. If you advance towards me you will feel that I am very far, and if you retreat you will feel that I am very near. What does this mean? This makes no sense at all to an ordinary person on the street or any non-internal martial artist.

In essence, it means that the (high level) internalist moves better than you ("general" you). If you stand still he can stand still better. If you lower your stance he can do better. If you advance he can retreat better. If you retreat he can advance better. If your right arm engages his left arm, his left arm has better angle and positioning. If you want to apply force on him he has already emptied the contact spot. If you throw your body weight at him he has already stepped to the side. This sounds like magic. And in truth, it does. No beginner internalist is going to achieve this or realise this is how it works. However, after years of training, said internalist suddenly realises, hey how come my opponent is so clumsy, can’t even stand straight properly or is doing so many pointless moves, I seem to be able to run circles around him. If that day comes, do we still need to talk about push, kick, lock or throw?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2016)

Zeny said:


> If that day comes, do we still need to talk about push, kick, lock or throw?


IMO, when that day comes, you still need to talk about "finish moves" such as kick, punch, lock, throw. Even if we don't want to talk about "kill", we still need to talk about:

- fist meets face, and
- head meets ground.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 9, 2016)

oaktree said:


> some use muscle and power to apply a qinna,


IMO, all joint lock require leverage. For example, when you apply a wrist lock, it's not how much power that you can apply on your opponent's wrist but whether or not you understand how to

- drop down your own wrist, and
- raise up your own elbow.


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