# What's wrong with the .380?



## thardey (Feb 14, 2008)

So how reliable are .380s?

It sounds like the best pocket pistols still jam. What's the deal?

Is it the concept of the pocket pistol in general? Is it the .380 specifically?

I have a chance to pick up a Grendel .380 for pretty cheap, and I have some time to think about it. Out of 100 shells, it jammed 5 times. I thought that was horrible, but then, I normally shoot a Glock, which has never jammed.

Then with some of the reviews on the "new .380's" out there, it sound like they all have jamming problems, and the 9mm mouse guns don't seem to be all that much better.

The things I like about the Grendel are the double-stack mag, which makes for a comfortable grip, and the double-action-only, which is always a plus for me in a self-defense situation. But a 5% jam rate? To me, being raised on wheel guns and Glocks, that's nuts.

What's so hard about a small autoloader?


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## Grenadier (Feb 14, 2008)

It's not so much the reliability, but rather, the recoil you get from firing a .380 pistol.

Almost all .380 ACP pistols use a straight blow-back mechanism, while almost all 9 mm pistols use a locked breech mechanism.  

A locked-breech mechanism actually soaks up a good bit of the gun's recoil, and it's actually not unusual for a similarly sized 9 mm pistol (compared to the .380) to have *less* felt recoil than its .380 ACP counterpart.  

Just as an example, I've had the fortune of firing a Sig P239 (compact 9 mm, locked breech mechanism) and a Sig P232 (compact .380 ACP, blowback mechanism) one after another.  Since I was using the stainless Sig P232, it was a bit heavier than the blued version (weighed about 23 ounces, unloaded).  

The P239 was shooting some fairly hot NATO-spec 9 mm 124 grain FMJ loads (1185 fps, 124 grains).  

The P232 was tested with some subsonic 95 grain .380 ACP FMJ loads (955 fps).  

By all rights, since both guns are similar in terms of weight (25 oz vs 23 oz), the .380 ACP should have generated less recoil, especially since its kinetic energy is measured at 190 ft lbs, while the 9 mm had 387 ft lbs of kinetic energy.  Also, momentum of the 9 mm was certainly greater.  

However, due to the P232's use of a blowback mechanism, the felt recoil from the P232 was actually greater than the P239, which used a locked breach mechanism.  

The way I see it, if two guns weigh the same, are about the same dimensions, yet one shoots a more powerful cartridge while generating less *felt* recoil, then there's no real reason to pick the lesser pistol.


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## Grenadier (Feb 14, 2008)

thardey said:


> I have a chance to pick up a Grendel .380 for pretty cheap, and I have some time to think about it. Out of 100 shells, it jammed 5 times. I thought that was horrible, but then, I normally shoot a Glock, which has never jammed.


 
Grendel's aren't exactly known for being high quality weapons.  

That isn't to say that .380's can't be reliable; if anything, I had a Sig P230 that would feed anything through it, even if I didn't have a good grip on it.  I've also seen Makarovs chambered in the .380 ACP that could digest any number of loads with perfect reliability.


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## searcher (Feb 14, 2008)

I class the .380 in the same grouping as the .25.   It just does not have the stopping power I want.   If other people want to carry it, then more power to them.   I will be sticking to my 9mm and .40 cal.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 14, 2008)

searcher said:


> I class the .380 in the same grouping as the .25. It just does not have the stopping power I want. If other people want to carry it, then more power to them. I will be sticking to my 9mm and .40 cal.


 
I wouldn't go so far as to put the .380 in the same class as a .25 (that's a terrible insult ) but I will agree that it is not the optimal round.

That said, if you're operating under size constraints and _if_ you can find one that is RELIABLE, it would be okay.

I'd pass on the Grendel...I've never heard any positive feedback on them.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 15, 2008)

I have had my Russian made .380 for many years now.  Bought it durring the last LA riots . I would have gone for a 9mm but money became an issue and I wanted one that day < I did not want to wait 2 weeks so I could afford the 9.


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## thardey (Feb 15, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> I wouldn't go so far as to put the .380 in the same class as a .25 (that's a terrible insult ) but I will agree that it is not the optimal round.
> 
> That said, if you're operating under size constraints and _if_ you can find one that is RELIABLE, it would be okay.
> 
> I'd pass on the Grendel...I've never heard any positive feedback on them.



One plus, and it's the only positive feedback I've consistently heard, is that it does shoot straight! (One guy swore by his.) It is surprisingly accurate for such a short barrel. And it _feels_ good in my hand.

I'm kind of stuck -- I _want_ a sub-compact, but I don't _need_ one. I've already got a Glock .45 full-size that I can hide under a T-shirt. But it's still a full-size, and sometimes it's just a bit too much for my daily life. But since I only _want_ one I can't justify the price of a higher-end gun like a Beretta or Walther. I would be able to pick up the Grendel for about $120.

Also, the gun in question belongs to a member of a "domestic dispute" kind of situation, and having one less gun in this particular situation would be a good thing. It's almost worth buying the gun just to get it out of the house and under my control. (I'm holding it for them right now, anyways.)

Thus the question of the thread -- are there consistently reliable .380's out there, and what's the cost? Are 9mm's more reliable (thanks Grenadier, you helped explain that), and if so, what's the price difference between a .380 or a 9mm? I read somewhere that the .380's are cheaper because of the straight blowback method of autoloading -- but does that make it more prone to jamming?


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## Grenadier (Feb 15, 2008)

thardey said:


> Thus the question of the thread -- are there consistently reliable .380's out there, and what's the cost?


 
Yes.  There are many excellent .380 ACP pistols out there.  

Arguably, the most concealable, reliable out of the box .380 ACP pistol is the Seecamp.  It's the smallest out there, and tips the scales at under 12 ounces, unloaded.  It's reliable with most ammo, but cartridges that have unusually long OAL's might not be too good.  The other disadvantage is that it's going to set you back at least 700 bucks.  

I've already mentioned two, the Sig P230 and the P232 (the 232 being the more modern version of the 230).  Those babies can feed almost anything, from underpowered handloads, all the way to the hottest available ammo, which, to my knowledge, is the Doubletap 95 grain Gold Dot load (1100 fps, 95 grain projectile).  To me, these are some of the most comfortable shooting .380 ACP compact or subcompact pistols.  

The blue version of the gun uses an alloy frame, and weighs only 16 ounces, but can fit in a average sized hand very comfortably.  The stainless one weighs about 23 ounces.  

The Bersa Thunder Concealed Carry model is another fine pistol that's easily concealed.  It also tips the scales at 23 ounces, but is equally as reliable as the above Sig P232.  


Now, there are some offerings that, with some fluff and buff, work just fine, such as Kel-Tec's P3-AT, and the latest versions of Walther's PPK/S.  




> Are 9mm's more reliable (thanks Grenadier, you helped explain that), and if so, what's the price difference between a .380 or a 9mm? I read somewhere that the .380's are cheaper because of the straight blowback method of autoloading -- but does that make it more prone to jamming?


 
.380 ACP's can be just as reliable as any 9 mm pistol, as long as they're well designed.  The thing is, though, that because you're going to get the same, or even more, felt recoil from a .380 ACP pistol, there comes a point where you have to ask yourself if it's really worth going to the lesser caliber.  

There are plenty of really small, high quality 9 mm pistols, out there, such as the Kahr PM series, along with the Rohrbaugh R-9, which are truly pocket pistols, but can handle 9 mm ammo just fine, while being exceptionally reliable.  With that in mind, it simply makes no sense to go to a gun that would have more felt recoil, and have fewer ammunition choices than the 9 mm.  

The only people who would go for the .380 version of a similarly sized 9 mm pistol, would be those living in countries that restrict ownership of various calibers, such as Brazil, where 9 mm is forbidden.


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## searcher (Feb 15, 2008)

This is my choice if you are going to get a .380, Glock 25 and Glock 28.


www.glock.com/english/index_pistols.htm


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## KenpoTex (Feb 15, 2008)

IIRC, the 25 and 28 can't be imported into the U.S.A.  (not enough ATF points or some such...)


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## KenpoTex (Feb 16, 2008)

don't know why I didn't think of it 'till now...

I've heard pretty good things about the Bersa .380's.  I can't provide a good opinion personally as I've only run one mag through one (FWIW, it was a pretty accurate little gun).  Probably cheaper than the SIG.


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## Drac (Feb 16, 2008)

thardey said:


> So how reliable are .380s?
> What's so hard about a small autoloader?


 
Nothing wrong with .380's as far as I'm concerned..Carried a Sig P-230 for years and LOVED it..Never a jam or a problem..


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## jamz (Feb 16, 2008)

I can only comment on the one .380 I've owned, which was a Colt pony pockeltlite.  (They make a Colt Mustang too, sort of a mini 1911 looking thing) It was very reliable, I can't ever remember a malfunction.  It was also a blowback, slim, very pocketable.  I sold it to pay for a S&W 340PD, which to my mind represented a better combination of concealability and firepower.

I've heard decent things about kel-tec's P3AT, in that if it was good out of the box, it would stay good, but a large percentage are bad out of the box, and require a "fluff and buff" in order to become good.

To me, .380 is pretty marginal.  I'd carry it if I for some reason could not get away with a J-frame, and it would be loaded with JHP for better penetration.


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## paulee (Feb 18, 2008)

If you're serious about carrying the weapon for self defense, then the smallest I would go would be a 9mm.  With the excellent choices in small, flat, easily concealable 9s (Kahr, and the new SA EMP), I'd say that you'd be crazy to pass on them for a .380.  If cost is an issue, ask yourself this: How much is your life worth?


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## Grenadier (Feb 18, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> IIRC, the 25 and 28 can't be imported into the U.S.A. (not enough ATF points or some such...)


 
Yup.  Exact details are here:

http://www.glockfaq.com/models.htm#points

The bottom of that page also shows you the differences between locked breech and blowback operations.  

The Glock 26, therefore, barely qualifies with a 75 exactly.  The Glock 28, being a .380, would lose 7 points due to caliber, and another 5 for the blowback mechanism, maybe another point due to the slight weight difference.  

The 25 comes up similarly short.  

Silly rules indeed, but they are the rules.


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## Drac (Feb 18, 2008)

I did have a Walther once that was the worst POS I ever owned..It jammed constantly even after taking all the necessary steps to fix the problem..


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## cstanley (Feb 18, 2008)

I have a Berretta .380 with a 13 rnd magazine. I practice by taking it plinking, almost like a 22. cal. Under 40 feet, it is highly accurate but does lack the punch of the larger calibers. After talking to some friends who are policemen and carry it as a backup, I fire FMJ's in it because there are many who feel that there is not sufficient penetration with hollow points.

My regular carry weapon is a 1911A, but the Berretta is nice when I am dressed up and wearing a jacket and need a shoulder holster. It is also good to carry when I am cycling or jogging in the woods or on old roads. 

Smooth action, nice trigger even on DA, and easy to field strip and clean.


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## Grenadier (Feb 18, 2008)

cstanley said:


> I fire FMJ's in it because there are many who feel that there is not sufficient penetration with hollow points.


 
You might like the 102 grain Remington Golden Saber, then.  This is probably going to have the deepest penetration out of all of the .380 ACP hollowpoints, and it's one of the heaviest bullets used in this caliber.


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## LawDog (Feb 18, 2008)

A 380 is really a 9mm short much like the 40 is a 10mm short. A 380 silver tip or it's equiveilent, is not a bad round for simple self defense. This round is not a man stopper but it is good at delivering pain into a armed attacker. Most people who are initally shot do not know what type of round that has hit them and how much damage it has done. Because of the severe trama many who are hit by a potentional man stopper do not feel it's effects untill later on.
If you use a 380 silvertip or its equiveilent for S.D. it should deliver enough pain into an armed attacker to allow you enought time to regroup and evaluate.
There is little chance that this little round will over penetrate and come out the other side. This is a plus in a croweded area. It is a very loud round, it will scare the hell out of people. It is a good pocket gun.
For a pocket gun I prefer the S&W Chief Special Airweight,(alloy), 38 sp. plus P.
A 25 cal tends to pencil hole into a substance with very little shock and / or pain.


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## thardey (Feb 19, 2008)

paulee said:


> If you're serious about carrying the weapon for self defense, then the smallest I would go would be a 9mm.  With the excellent choices in small, flat, easily concealable 9s (Kahr, and the new SA EMP), I'd say that you'd be crazy to pass on them for a .380.  If cost is an issue, ask yourself this: How much is your life worth?



Well, if cost was no object, then I would skip this conversation entirely and buy a Glock 27 in a .40, or the G33 in .357 sig, and be done with it. Like I said before -- most of the time I have my Glock 21 (full-sized .45) on me. Sometimes a pocket gun is more appropriate. By definition, since it's a "mouse gun" I've already decided to pass on the "man-stoppers."

I didn't realize until I did some research last week that, like LawDog said, the .380, the .38 special, the .357, and the 9mm are all the same caliber. The difference is in the length of the bullet itself, which affects overall weight, and the amount of powder behind it. If I read the statistics right, the .380 is faster than the .38, but the .38 is heavier. The .38 was used for how long in law enforcement? My grandfather swore by his.

But I'm used to deliberating between a .45 or a 9mm. The difference between a .380 and a 9mm is almost nothing to me. An inch or two penetration, (which varies widely depending on the bullet) and about 20 grains more weight. A 9mm is still a small round to me. A .380 runs about 95 grains, the 9mm Parabellum is what, 115-130? I'm used to thinking in terms of 230 grains. A 20-35 grain difference is barely anything -- I would have already sacrificed 100 grains!

The only real difference I see is what *Grenadier* said: felt recoil is more in a .380 than a 9mm. But for me, I grew up with .357s -- recoil doesn't bother me. 

If it was a 9mm sitting in my house, waiting for an offer to be made on it, the issue would still come down to reliability. Can I empty the mag with assurance? 

BTW, since everything is relative, So far it only jams after the 6-11th shot. (I've identified the problem - it's a combination of too heavy a recoil spring, and too light of a mag. spring) The first 6 always cycle just fine. Since many of the .380's only carry 6 shots anyway, well, is some ways, I'm still breaking even. So I guess "empty the mag" isn't entirely accurate.


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## thardey (Feb 19, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> You might like the 102 grain Remington Golden Saber, then.  This is probably going to have the deepest penetration out of all of the .380 ACP hollowpoints, and it's one of the heaviest bullets used in this caliber.



That sounds like a promising round. I went looking for a jacketed semi-wadcutter (jacketed, with a flat, lead nose -- sort of a hunting round), like for my .357, and the guy at the sporting goods store was completely lost. But I do remember seeing the Golden saber there.


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## thardey (Feb 19, 2008)

LawDog said:


> A 380 is really a 9mm short much like the 40 is a 10mm short. A 380 silver tip or it's equiveilent, is not a bad round for simple self defense. This round is not a man stopper but it is good at delivering pain into a armed attacker. Most people who are initally shot do not know what type of round that has hit them and how much damage it has done. Because of the severe trama many who are hit by a potentional man stopper do not feel it's effects untill later on.
> If you use a 380 silvertip or its equiveilent for S.D. it should deliver enough pain into an armed attacker to allow you enought time to regroup and evaluate.
> There is little chance that this little round will over penetrate and come out the other side. This is a plus in a croweded area. It is a very loud round, it will scare the hell out of people. It is a good pocket gun.
> For a pocket gun I prefer the S&W Chief Special Airweight,(alloy), 38 sp. plus P.
> A 25 cal tends to pencil hole into a substance with very little shock and / or pain.



That's exactly my thinking, as well. I'm not expecting to knock a man down with this thing -- but a gun is still a gun. Even with a .45 it still boils down to shot placement.


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## searcher (Feb 19, 2008)

thardey said:


> That's exactly my thinking, as well. I'm not expecting to knock a man down with this thing -- but a gun is still a gun. Even with a .45 it still boils down to shot placement.


 

That is exactly why my CCH instructor says that you should not stop shooting until the threat is stopped.

Unless you shoot the guy in the medula oblongata, the guy can still function for 15-30 seconds after he is fatally wounded.   He can be dead and still be able to harm you.


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## chinto (Feb 25, 2008)

thardey said:


> So how reliable are .380s?
> 
> It sounds like the best pocket pistols still jam. What's the deal?
> 
> ...



well you have less velocity and there for less energy in the same 9mm diameter slug then in a 9MM parabelum/luger cartridge.  
in that  .380 caliber, I have had very good function from a Walther PPK, and an old colt pocket pistol... but really its the very smallest I would go in a pistol for self defense given a choice.. if no choice I would go as low as a .32 acp (7.65mm)  but you in my opinion should never go smaller then that!  also do as the people in Delta force, and the S.A.S and G.S.G.9 and other elite forces do with 9mm caliber weapons, and always shoot at least 2 times in the "double tap". With the .32 caliber,  I would suggest a minimum of 2 double taps together.


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## Jack Meower (Mar 27, 2008)

I have had a Walther .380 PPK/S for about 20 years now.  Mine is stainless, and the Interarms version.  I do not carry, but I have shot it frequently.  It seemed to jam quite a bit for the first 100 rounds or so.  I don't know if it just needed to be 'shot in' or if I was 'limp-wristing' it (probably a combination of both), but since then it has been perfectly reliable.  It is also shockingly accurate for such a small pistol, and it points amazingly well.  

I don't have  a problem with a .380 as a self defense round myself.  I do prefer FMJ rounds in it due to potential issues with lack of penetration, especially with heavy winter clothing.  Besides, FMJ is cheaper and feeds better.  As others have mentioned, shot placement is key.  

We always want high power, high capacity, small size, reliability, accuracy in the same gun.  A person just has to decide what is the best compromise for them, as there is no perfect firearm.  Also, do not disregard how it feels in your hand.  

Best of luck in your search.


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## chinto (Mar 31, 2008)

thardey said:


> So how reliable are .380s?
> 
> It sounds like the best pocket pistols still jam. What's the deal?
> 
> ...


the biggest problem I have with the weapon is the cartridge is to week and to small a  bore diameter.  in a pistol the most important thing is bore diameter.   .380 cal/ 9mm kurtz is better then say a .32acp/7.65mm but not a huge amount.  If you can hold the weapon and shoot it  go for the biggest bore diameter you can!  personally I prefer the .45 ACP  and if I have to go smaller, I would not go below 9MM parabellum ever!  
no pistol is going to have the velocity of a rifle, so bore diameter is what is going to get the job done. I am an ex medic and can tell you that if some one is shot with a pistol the only thing the medics need to know is the bore diameter, larger the bore the worse off the patient is!!!!!!


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## thardey (Apr 1, 2008)

chinto said:


> the biggest problem I have with the weapon is the cartridge is to week and to small a  bore diameter.  in a pistol the most important thing is bore diameter.   .380 cal/ 9mm kurtz is better then say a .32acp/7.65mm but not a huge amount.  If you can hold the weapon and shoot it  go for the biggest bore diameter you can!  personally I prefer the .45 ACP  and if I have to go smaller, I would not go below 9MM parabellum ever!
> no pistol is going to have the velocity of a rifle, so bore diameter is what is going to get the job done. I am an ex medic and can tell you that if some one is shot with a pistol the only thing the medics need to know is the bore diameter, larger the bore the worse off the patient is!!!!!!



Um, what about the .357 Magnum? It's the same diameter as a .380 or a 9mm. It just has a lot more punch behind it, and a heavier bullet. There's got to be more to it than just the diameter of the bullet.


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## Grenadier (Apr 1, 2008)

Combination of things, really.  

Bore diameter does have a good bit of importance, since a 0.40" hole in someone is going to have more of an effect than a 0.355" hole.  

However, what the bullet does once it's inside the target, has just as much, and probably more, importance.  Bullet design is a critical aspect here, since today's premium hollowpoints have pretty much levelled the playing field, when it comes to cartridges of .38 Special +P, and anything more potent.  

With today's premium designs, any of the serious defensive calibers will do the job, since such bullets are designed to expand at lower velocities than their older counterparts used to require.  If anything, the developments in bullet designs have changed the way we think about ammo.  Old "dirty words," such as "147 grain 9 mm hollowpoint," are no longer dirty, and some of the best performing designs are of the 147 grain subsonic 9 mm type (Federal's HST, Winchester's Ranger, Remington's Golden Saber, etc).  


But...  What happens when you're not using one of the above "serious defensive" calibers?  If you're confident in being able to place your shots very accurately and consistently, then you're already way beyond most folks, and don't need advice on this matter.  However, for the rest of us ordinary folks, we need to evaluate the gun, and ask if we're willing to sacrifice the extra margin of error when it comes to the better defensive calibers, just to have better portability.  

With today's small firearms (Airweight J-frame revolvers, Kahr micro series, Rohrbaugh, Kel-Tec, etc), available in such serious defensive calibers, I simply prefer to stick with them.  I find it hard to beat my Glock 26, stoked with 13 rounds of Winchester Ranger ammo (127 grain +P+), and that the ammo still has enough velocity to match a .357 magnum coming out of a snub nosed revolver.  

In cases where I have to keep the gun concealed with a tucked shirt, and no overgarmets, that's where I'll use the S&W 342 (airweight), loaded with 5 rounds of Speer's 130 grain Gold Dot +P loads designed for shorter barrels.  

The only lesser caliber that I carried was a .380 ACP (Sig P230), where i chose the heaviest premium hollowpoint available, that fed reliably (The Remington Golden Saber 102 grain), since penetration from a .380 ACP is going to be marginal.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Apr 1, 2008)

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love my Kel-tec .380!!! Simple, fits in my pocket, lightweight and so far it's worked everytime I've pulled the trigger.


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## wade (Apr 2, 2008)

Indy got it right the first time, "it fits in the pocket". You can have all the hand cannons in the world carrying 13 or more rounds that can punch through reinforced brick walls but if you can't carry it because of the size it's about as effective as, well, gee, not having it at all. IMHO, I would rather carry something that I can have with me every single day and every where I go no matter what I am wearing than something I have to dress for and decide whether it is appropriate or not. I get up, I get dressed, I check the magazine and the chamber, put it in my pocket and am ready to go. Don't have to think about what to wear or how I'm going to hide it cause the weather is 110 degrees and that damn coat or vest is going to look really strange at the beach. I have a 40 and and a 45 and love both of them dearly. Fun to shoot, make loud sounds and big holes. But they are both big and not easy to hide so very very rarely do I actually carry them. Funny thing, I've been out of the military since 1977 and been carrying all that time and I have never been in a gun battle. Makes you wonder doesn't it? Anyhoo, for all you that carry hand cannon, other than in war and for LEO's, how many of you have actually had to use your hand cannon in an actually situation?


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## thardey (Apr 2, 2008)

INDYFIGHTER said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again. I love my Kel-tec .380!!! Simple, fits in my pocket, lightweight and so far it's worked everytime I've pulled the trigger.





wade said:


> Indy got it right the first time, "it fits in the pocket". You can have all the hand cannons in the world carrying 13 or more rounds that can punch through reinforced brick walls but if you can't carry it because of the size it's about as effective as, well, gee, not having it at all. IMHO, I would rather carry something that I can have with me every single day and every where I go no matter what I am wearing than something I have to dress for and decide whether it is appropriate or not. I get up, I get dressed, I check the magazine and the chamber, put it in my pocket and am ready to go. Don't have to think about what to wear or how I'm going to hide it cause the weather is 110 degrees and that damn coat or vest is going to look really strange at the beach. I have a 40 and and a 45 and love both of them dearly. Fun to shoot, make loud sounds and big holes. But they are both big and not easy to hide so very very rarely do I actually carry them. Funny thing, I've been out of the military since 1977 and been carrying all that time and I have never been in a gun battle. Makes you wonder doesn't it? Anyhoo, for all you that carry hand cannon, other than in war and for LEO's, how many of you have actually had to use your hand cannon in an actually situation?



Which pocket do you carry it in?


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## wade (Apr 3, 2008)

Why?


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## thardey (Apr 4, 2008)

wade said:


> Why?



Well, if you carry it in the front pocket, isn't that a little obvious? But, the mouseguns I've seen aren't easy do draw from the back pocket, unless you're using a pocket holster, but then the gun doesn't fit all the way into the pocket.


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## wade (Apr 4, 2008)

Mine does, and in a holster. How tight are your pants? 

Mouse guns? You shoot mice? Ewwwwwww.........  Or do you mean guns that mice can carry? Hmmmmmmmm.


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## INDYFIGHTER (Apr 4, 2008)

thardey said:


> Which pocket do you carry it in?


 
I can carry it in the front pocket of my jeans, I can carry it in my back pocket if I'm not going to be sitting down.  I also carry it in the front hand pockets of all my jackets.  My biker coat has a leather pocket on the left inside that I use to lug my 9mm around in, I forget my .380 is even in there.


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## Grenadier (Apr 4, 2008)

thardey said:


> Well, if you carry it in the front pocket, isn't that a little obvious?


 

Not really.  You do, though, have to be a bit careful about your wardrobe.  

During the hot summer months, a S&W airweight J-frame or Kel Tec P3AT, can fit in a decent quality pocket holster.  If the holster is any good, then it will conceal the bulge using a flat profile, and if a bulge is seen, then people will generally assume that someone's carrying a wallet or a phone in the front pocket.  

If someone tries to take a detailed stare (and it will take the educated eye some time to determine for certain), you can always call the staring person a pervert, and that will stop them from staring.   

A looser fitting pair of cargo shorts works well in these cases, as does a pair of looser fitting slacks / khaki's that have deeper pockets.  

Something like these fine Mitch Rosen holsters are great for pocket carry:

http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/holsters/pocket_holsters/body_pocket_holsters.html

or even the cheaper "El Raton"

http://www.mitchrosen.com/product_line/holsters/express_line/body_express_line.html

Dare I even say, that I've even been comfortable using the cheap Desantis Nemesis...


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## INDYFIGHTER (Apr 4, 2008)

I'm kinda skinny so my pants don't fit very tight but I can have my hand on my gun in my front pocket and look as relaxed as can be.  No one would ever know I was holding my kel-tec in my hand.  It's almost scary to me how concealable it really is.


http://www.ericsiegmund.com/fireant/archivesmt/003394.html


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## thardey (Apr 4, 2008)

That makes sense. 

The "Pocket holsters" I had seen were basically IWB holsters, so the handle stuck up above the clip. Now I see where the "hooks" catch in your pocket and hold the holster in place. That looks very doable.

I can also see how the holster would flatten out the rectangular shape, and "contour" in to the leg, so it wouldn't look so bulky.

Going into summer, often I wear hawaiian-style shirts untucked, so IWB works just fine, but there's no option for if I want to go a little nicer and tuck in the shirt, without wearing a jacket. I think I could make this work with the Khaki's and slacks I usually wear.


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## chinto (Apr 5, 2008)

thardey said:


> Um, what about the .357 Magnum? It's the same diameter as a .380 or a 9mm. It just has a lot more punch behind it, and a heavier bullet. There's got to be more to it than just the diameter of the bullet.




I can tell you now that as an ex EMT that I would rather have some one who is hit say 2 or 3 times by a 357 then 1 or 2 times by a .45 ( depending on the wound sight of course as a head hit or hit to say the heart or inferior or superior aorta is kinda moot. )

bore diamiter is  the major factor.!  in a rifle or other weapon that can put a round down range at over 1900fps  things can start to change and at over 2700 fps things do change a lot!  

but in a 357/9mm kurtz or parubelum the extra velocity mainly translates into penetration...  a .25 acp has been stopped by heavy winter clothing at times.... but heavier slugs and larger bore diameter are what it is about... 158 grains at say 850 fps beats  115 grains at 700 fps every day, and still beats it at 850 fps..   but its the bore diameter that makes the huge difference in a pistols velocity.  the bigger  and with that size comes weight  the more damage and larger the wound channel.


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## Grenadier (Apr 6, 2008)

chinto said:


> I can tell you now that as an ex EMT that I would rather have some one who is hit say 2 or 3 times by a 357 then 1 or 2 times by a .45 ( depending on the wound sight of course as a head hit or hit to say the heart or inferior or superior aorta is kinda moot. )
> 
> bore diamiter is the major factor.! in a rifle or other weapon that can put a round down range at over 1900fps things can start to change and at over 2700 fps things do change a lot!


 
True, that bigger can be better, if we're talking about ball ammo.  After all, a .357 magnum will make a hole about 0.357" wide, and will probably make an exit hole of similar size, while a .45 ACP will do the same with a 0.451" diameter hole.  

However, with today's jacketed hollowpoint ammunition, the playing field has been equalized.  Take a look at Winchetser's ballistic's:

http://winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing_pg.aspx

Not much difference at all between a 9 mm and a .40.  

Also, look at the Ranger T series:

http://winchester.com/lawenforcement/testing/testing_t.aspx

Not much of a difference between 9 mm / .40 / .45 ACP.  

Similar premium ammunition from any of the major manufacturers (Remington, Speer, Federal, Hornady) should perform similarly, too.


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## chinto (Apr 7, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> True, that bigger can be better, if we're talking about ball ammo.  After all, a .357 magnum will make a hole about 0.357" wide, and will probably make an exit hole of similar size, while a .45 ACP will do the same with a 0.451" diameter hole.
> 
> However, with today's jacketed hollowpoint ammunition, the playing field has been equalized.  Take a look at Winchetser's ballistic's:
> 
> ...




actually a jacketed hollow point from a 9mm and from a .45 cal will tend to expand fairly closely in percentage of increase in diameter. but for self defense i would suggest you use a frangible ball like "mag safe" or similar... prevents over penetration and other problems  that result in secondary casualty and collateral wounds to innocent bystanders.  but the larger heavier slug will be more effective in most hit locations at incapacitating the attacker faster, and more effectively.


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## KenpoTex (Apr 8, 2008)

chinto said:


> ...but for self defense i would suggest you use a frangible ball like "mag safe" or similar... prevents over penetration and other problems that result in secondary casualty and collateral wounds to innocent bystanders...


 
I'm not a big fan (not a fan at all actually) of MagSafe, Glasers, or similar...I want something that _will_ penetrate.

Hanguns are anemic little weapons to begin with, no sense handicapping them any more.

On a somewhat related note...it cracks me up that police departments (and as a result, those that base their choices on what the cops carry) are always making so much noise about secondary penetration.  Why is this amusing?  because _if_ they have a hit rate of 50%, they're doing well.  What's the point in worrying about _secondary_ penetration when you miss?


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## chinto (Apr 10, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> I'm not a big fan (not a fan at all actually) of MagSafe, Glasers, or similar...I want something that _will_ penetrate.
> 
> Hanguns are anemic little weapons to begin with, no sense handicapping them any more.
> 
> On a somewhat related note...it cracks me up that police departments (and as a result, those that base their choices on what the cops carry) are always making so much noise about secondary penetration.  Why is this amusing?  because _if_ they have a hit rate of 50%, they're doing well.  What's the point in worrying about _secondary_ penetration when you miss?



i do not base my selection on what the cops choose for ammo or a weapon.  actually i figure the 3rd round out will be a jhp and the 4th and the next will be a fmj.. but face it, you will get it done with the first 3 rounds to 5 round in almost all self defense  situation with a pistol or you are provably screwed!   

but in the after math of a situation where you did use your weapon it looks better to the grand jury and the Jury at trial if it ever gets that far, when you say... I had Mag-safe round in my weapon, and I have done every thing I could to make sure that  I would not have to use the weapon and that if i did I would use the minimum force to preserve my life!

On pistol versus other weapons.. well if I have to go to a gun fight, and can not opt out I am bringing at least a .30 cal rifle or a 12 bore shot gun ( depending on the terrain) but a pistol is not going to be my choice for that kind of thing if I know its coming!!


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## LawDog (Apr 11, 2008)

A nice posted hollow cavity will work just fine. In most situations it's expasion in on the controlled side so that if there is an over penetration, for the most part, the round is spent.
The glaser type of round is not that accurate. After impact they will not create a good "shock" pattern, this is needed to create a very destructive cavity.
The key to success when using any hand gun is simply the putting of an effective round to where it will do the most damage.
:biggun:


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## Grenadier (Apr 11, 2008)

chinto said:


> i do not base my selection on what the cops choose for ammo or a weapon. actually i figure the 3rd round out will be a jhp and the 4th and the next will be a fmj.. but face it, you will get it done with the first 3 rounds to 5 round in almost all self defense situation with a pistol or you are provably screwed!


 
Staggering ammunition like that really doesn't help.  You're better off loading your magazine with a proven hollowpoint load. 

Some folks have asked why not keep FMJ in the magazine to use against vehicles.  I'll simply say this: JHP that doesn't expand, will act the same as a FMJ will.  




> but in the after math of a situation where you did use your weapon it looks better to the grand jury and the Jury at trial if it ever gets that far, when you say... I had Mag-safe round in my weapon, and I have done every thing I could to make sure that I would not have to use the weapon and that if i did I would use the minimum force to preserve my life!


 
Ammunition choice isn't an issue.  Anyone can simply say "I used what the police recommended and use for themselves."


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## chinto (Apr 12, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> Staggering ammunition like that really doesn't help.  You're better off loading your magazine with a proven hollowpoint load.
> 
> Some folks have asked why not keep FMJ in the magazine to use against vehicles.  I'll simply say this: JHP that doesn't expand, will act the same as a FMJ will.
> 
> ...




true.. that does tend to put the DA on the defensive if you use what your local cop shop uses... but I also have to agree that  gun control in the  instance of being  able to hit  the target at the point of aim  is the most important!!    but  bore diameter will make that hit regardless of where more effective in any situation concerning a pistol/handgun!!!!!.


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## Deaf Smith (Apr 28, 2008)

If you want the max out of the .380, Buffalo Bore makes a .380 load, 90 gr JHP, at 1175 fps or higher.

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#380

Just in case you want that little extra bit of power.

Deaf


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## AzQkr (Apr 30, 2008)

I just had delivered Monday-60 rds [ three boxes of 20 ] BB in their posted 90 gr. Speer Gold Dot J.H.C. @ 1175 fps        276 ft. lbs.

In my ppk/s, they travel 1200fps. Bonded core bullet, it's not going to break apart but will expand. They state expect about 10" of penetration with that loading. Though I like a little more penetration, when carrying this load in these guns, I'm good with that data. Some of the 38spl loadings for SD don't make 276 ft lbs out of the snubs. 

I'm good with the above load when I carry the pkk/s or ppk. I'm also good with Fiocchi ball in 380 [ a little hotter than american ammo ]. 

Brownie


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