# UFC 94 Machida vs Silva Video - Is this a good representation of karate?



## Makalakumu (Feb 1, 2009)

http://www.mma-core.com/videos/_Lyoto_Machida_vs_Thiago_Silva_UFC_94?vid=10003148&tid=100

The comment was made that this fight was a good way in which karate was melded in with MMA.  What do you think?  Is this a good representation of what karate can do in an MMA match?


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## redantstyle (Feb 1, 2009)

nice backangle slips.  he was working the space change out of the back stance very well.   good kosoto too.

and he hits hard.


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## jarrod (Feb 1, 2009)

it's certainly a good representation of what lyoto can do in mma.  he just had more finesse than silva, plain & simple.

between machida, bas rutten, & gps karate has pretty good representation in mma.  

jf


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## elder999 (Feb 1, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> nice backangle slips. he was working the space change out of the back stance very well. good kosoto too.
> 
> and he hits hard.


 

And that about covers it-it's a "good represenation of karate," _in the context of MMA_: lots of good body positioning, front kicks, leg kicks,etc. What more could you really expect, under the circumstances?


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## Thesemindz (Feb 2, 2009)

I did think it was funny that during the event Rogan was talking about how "Karate has been shown not to work in MMA," and yet two of the nights big winners, Lyoto and GPS, are both karate guys.

I guess he meant that they hadn't seen talented enough karate fighters before, not that karate itself didn't work.

Nice work there Sensei. Go back to bug eating competitions.


-Rob


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## jarrod (Feb 2, 2009)

not to sidetrack things, but speaking of rogan, i _hate_ how he works in bravo's terminology during commentary.  it's cool that bravo made these catchy phrases & all, & it's cool that rogan trains.  but i get sick of hearing "there's the jailbreak!"  "a nice lockdown!" etc.  half the grappling world has no idea what you're talking about, buddy.

jf


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## punisher73 (Feb 2, 2009)

I think that is one of the keys to Machida's victories.  He has taken 'karate' and made it his own and how to apply it in the ring.  This kind of makes him a little bit unorthodox from the paradigm of most kick/boxers.  He doesn't use the same overall strategy or approach.

I remember when Sakuraba first was big in Pride, he would do very 'traditional' techniques as well, and it confused his opponents.  Look how long before you started to see hammerfists in the ring even though those techniques are taught early on in the TMA's, but not in boxing or kickboxing.

Machida does crosstrain so he is able to deal with all situations in MMA, but his striking style is very influenced by karate.  I remember a training video of him before the Tito fight and it showed him going through some kata as part of his training.


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## DavidCC (Feb 2, 2009)

jarrod said:


> not to sidetrack things, but speaking of rogan, i _hate_ how he works in bravo's terminology during commentary. it's cool that bravo made these catchy phrases & all, & it's cool that rogan trains. but i get sick of hearing "there's the jailbreak!" "a nice lockdown!" etc. half the grappling world has no idea what you're talking about, buddy.
> 
> jf


 
Yeah, I agree... but I can;t wait to try the jailbreak!

One of the beginnign grapplers in class tried the lockdown on me, I think he did it wrong, becauseI straightened my leg and it hurt HIM so bad he almost tapped.


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## strikesubmit (Feb 2, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> I did think it was funny that during the event Rogan was talking about how "Karate has been shown not to work in MMA," and yet two of the nights big winners, Lyoto and GPS, are both karate guys.
> 
> I guess he meant that they hadn't seen talented enough karate fighters before, not that karate itself didn't work.
> 
> ...


 
actually, with regards to GSP. if you look at his last few victories...they've come from his remarkable _wrestling_ abilities.

what's ironic, is that he started working wrestling into his overall game.

look what he did against Penn this past weekend...he used boxing more as a setup to take Penn down and grind him down on the mat.

someone unfamiliar with his background watching him fight wouldn't even know he was a karate guy.

with regards to Machida, yes, he represents karate well...but he also had to augment his game by cross-training. 

i do however agree with everyone's comments towards Rogan....


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## Steve (Feb 2, 2009)

strikesubmit said:


> actually, with regards to GSP. if you look at his last few victories...they've come from his remarkable _wrestling_ abilities.
> 
> what's ironic, is that he started working wrestling into his overall game.
> 
> ...


I agree with this for the most part.  GSP has largely... I won't say abandoned, but definitely minimized the integration of his karate background.  Outside of the occassional spinning back kick, GSP works a pretty good blend of western boxing, muay thai, wrestling and BJJ.  He's still got the karate skills he first learned, but I'm not sure he trains much karate anymore, if at all.

Machida, while also having cross trained, has stayed far more faithful to a karate foundation (shotokan in his case, if IIRC).  Machida is also very interested in cross training.  He's a BJJ black belt and has trained everything from sumo to wrestling.  But if you look at his fighting style, he still works the karate first and foremost.

Regarding Rogan's remark about Karate not having been successful, I think he's referring to some of the more "pure" karate guys.  There's one in particular that comes to mind... a brutal knockout by Guillard over Rick Davis in UFC 60.  Here's the video:  http://mmadepot.blogspot.com/2008/01/melvin-guillard-vs-rick-davis-ufc-60.html  Bruce Buffer calls Davis a "Jiu Jitsu and Kickboxing fighter" but I'm pretty sure his training was largely karate.

As for the Rogan vocabulary, I don't have a problem with it.  It's useful to have a vocabulary to describe certain moves and positions.  For example, Rubber Guard as opposed to, "that position where he pulls his ankle up for control without relying on the gi."  Like it or not, Bravo developed and refined a lot of those particular positions.  He didn't invent them, per se, but he worked them with intention into a larger game.  X Guard didn't really have a name until Marcelo Garcia created an entire strategy around the position.  Same thing.  But it's useful when someone's in the position to use the term X-guard because it's specific and meaningful.


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## redantstyle (Feb 2, 2009)

> brutal knockout by Guillard over Rick Davis


 
he was simply outclassed, in every way.

no contest.


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## Steve (Feb 3, 2009)

Here's a pretty good article about Machida and the implications to MMA.  I agree with the author that it's challenging the status quo... the idea that has been relatively well accepted that Muay Thai + BJJ + Wrestling is the de facto recipe for a good MMA'ist.  

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/3/745497/the-meaning-of-lyoto-machi


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## strikesubmit (Feb 3, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Here's a pretty good article about Machida and the implications to MMA. I agree with the author that it's challenging the status quo... the idea that has been relatively well accepted that Muay Thai + BJJ + Wrestling is the de facto recipe for a good MMA'ist.
> 
> http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2009/2/3/745497/the-meaning-of-lyoto-machi


 

aye, i agree as well.

the thing is, his success will hopefully encourage more "atypical" fighters to come out of the woodwork.

it'll almost be like how the UFC was orginally meant to be, but without the barbarism.

what's funny is that i would always look forward to seeing judo players like Parysian, Dong Hyung "Stun Gun" Kim, etc...come in to fight just because they had skill sets that weren't the typical recipe that you listed above.


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## jarrod (Feb 3, 2009)

that's one of the things i really liked about pride.  it seems that the fighters there were more specialized than many of the fighters in the ufc, & more likely to have a background in different MA than the standard MMA mix.  

jf


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## fightingpower (May 8, 2009)

It has to be said (and admittedly I think Machida is very Shotokan) that there is alot of weight behind being a naturally hard b%^^&%d!  If you go in there with a style that keeps it simple--old or new--and you have that I am going to give this my best shot approach and mix in a little aggression, you can't really go wrong.  In MA we all as practitioners underestimate aggresion and stregth.  I think its important not to get too carried away with the a samller man can defeat a bigger man with technique alone.  Strength and Mental acuity in combat are serious factors.  I heard a quote on the forum which states 'A sword in the hands of a coward is no use at all!'  

I think the real discussion we should be having is whether the ability to fight hard in you chosen style, thus making it effective is innate or something we can achieve through training, and if so what is the best method of going about it!

Well done Machida!  I actually improve fromwatching this guy in the cage ha!

Stay safe!


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## Nomad (May 8, 2009)

Machida has a phenomenal grasp of controlling the distance (and angles) between himself and his opponent in the ring, which may come from his karate background.  From the fights I've seen, he's a very, very hard man to actually hit, but he hits most of his opponents at will.

Can't wait for his next one.


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## Errant108 (May 11, 2009)

Machida should not become the poster boy for karate, the justification for karate practitioners.

Unless your karate system trains you in the same manner as Machida's family system of Shotokan-derived karate (IE. NOT JKA OR OTHER SHOTO-ORGS), he is meaningless.

For Machida to have any effect, people need to look at what makes him different from them, and how his training system differs from theirs.  Just because Machida does Kata & you do kata, doesn't mean jack.


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## Makalakumu (May 11, 2009)

Errant108 said:


> Machida should not become the poster boy for karate, the justification for karate practitioners.
> 
> Unless your karate system trains you in the same manner as Machida's family system of Shotokan-derived karate (IE. NOT JKA OR OTHER SHOTO-ORGS), he is meaningless.
> 
> For Machida to have any effect, people need to look at what makes him different from them, and how his training system differs from theirs.  Just because Machida does Kata & you do kata, doesn't mean jack.



How does the Machida family system train karate?


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## shihansmurf (May 11, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> How does the Machida family system train karate?


 
Realisticaly.

With actual contact, and suplimented with BJJ.



All joking aside they, or at least Lyoto, train their shotokan with a heavy emphasis on heavy contact competitition as opposed to asthetics. Lots of conditioning, hard contact sparring, and crosstraning to pick up the grund game to a level that allows him to excell in the MMA world. The fact that he is a gifted athlete is a plus and can't be overlooked, but applying the same methodology certainly will lead to an improvement in anyone's shotokan skills, providing the desired end result of training is skill in the octogon. It couldn't hurt one's ability in a real encounter, either.


Just my view
 Mark


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## Errant108 (May 11, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> How does the Machida family system train karate?



I'd recommend checking this out, bra:

http://www.amazon.com/Machida-Do-Ka...=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1237425066&sr=8-10


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## Makalakumu (May 11, 2009)

Cool, thanks for the info guys.  One thing I'm particularly interested in is how they are using kata.  How are they training basics?  Is this more like karate based kickboxing or is there an actually connection between the kata and the basics?


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## Errant108 (May 11, 2009)

Machida training:


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## Errant108 (May 11, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Cool, thanks for the info guys.  One thing I'm particularly interested in is how they are using kata.  How are they training basics?  Is this more like karate based kickboxing or is there an actually connection between the kata and the basics?



If you're looking for bunkai based combat, I'd doubt it.  Machida-do is a Shotokan offshoot, & Lyoto has competed in Ippon Kumite-style competitions.  His grappling comes from Sumo & BJJ, not kata bunkai.


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## Makalakumu (May 11, 2009)

Errant108 said:


> If you're looking for bunkai based combat, I'd doubt it.  Machida-do is a Shotokan offshoot, & Lyoto has competed in Ippon Kumite-style competitions.  His grappling comes from Sumo & BJJ, not kata bunkai.



That's what I was wondering.  I've met some of Oyata Sensei's (under Sensei Mike Cline) students in Minnesota who work on putting kata bunkai into the MMA arena and I wondered if Machida just took that to a higher level.  

It looks like karate based kickboxing from the training video.  Nothing wrong with that, but I was hoping for something different.


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