# The beginning of bad hahits?



## Brian S (Oct 14, 2007)

Hello all! I have a question and would like comments from anyone with similar experiences or something useful to add.

 I have trained in goju for 17yrs. About 6 years ago we integrated groundfighting/mma stuff, in other words we focus on all ranges and on self defense. 

 Recently I have started taking judo. I have found that it is a sport ,but alot of applications can be geared toward self defense if one wishes.

 During my judo lessons I have been told that what I'm doing is "illegal" many times. This conflicts with my past training and I think it may end up causing me to have bad habits in regards to my self defense training.

 I hope I am being clear. Thanks in advance for any replies!!


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## Kennedy_Shogen_Ryu (Oct 14, 2007)

I think I understand what you're saying.  It's difficult going from an art that is "all out" or "full contact" to an art that is more or purely "sport" oriented.   I train in both traditional Karate and MMA.  And I sometimes find it difficult going between a few rounds with traditional sparring and MMA fighting.  Karate, you hold back, techniques make no or minimal contact, very rarely are there takedowns, no submissions etc etc.  MMA, well obviously less rules to live by.  
You may have to choose to stick with training in one style or another, or try to find another Judo school that is perhaps not so "sport" oriented.  Or you may choose to challenge yourself, keep in mind when it's proper to use "sport" techniques and when it comes to self defence when to use whatever works.

Cheers!​


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## Brian S (Oct 19, 2007)

I am going to stick with Judo. All the while I'll be doing what I have been on the side.

 It's not a one or the other decision for me and I will probably find myself being caught while doing something legal in Judo that will hurt me in SD training. It's all part of the learning process for me.


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## Keikai (Oct 19, 2007)

What is considered illeagal in judo is considered good self defence in ju jutsu. The bad habit that can develop in judo is because of the rules against various actions you can place yourself in a dangerous situation in self defence. For example you are not allowed to grab the face or gouge eyes in judo while on the ground. Therefore there is no need to develop skills to be on the ground and guard against such attacks. Ju jutsu develops those awareness skills as part and parcel of the training, as does karate in self defence.


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## Yari (Oct 23, 2007)

Brian S said:


> Hello all! I have a question and would like comments from anyone with similar experiences or something useful to add.
> 
> I have trained in goju for 17yrs. About 6 years ago we integrated groundfighting/mma stuff, in other words we focus on all ranges and on self defense.
> 
> ...


 
To be honest. Yes.. it will influence your "style" and thinking. So if it's very important for you to be 100% SD, choose something else. Jujitsu is better that way. For judo and JJ, it also depends on the teacher /style.

/yari


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## MarkBarlow (Oct 23, 2007)

With the amount of training and your high level of experience, it shouldn't be a major problem to keep the sport separate from the self defense.  While I agree that Jujutsu is definitely more real world oriented, Judo training is great from building strong fundamentals.


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## Tez3 (Oct 23, 2007)

Our instructor will, when showing us a technique, show us the Judo way and the BJJ way. There is a small varience in the techniques but they aren't hard to remember. For example in a rear naked choke in Judo the forearm is across the throat, in MMA/BJJ the crook of the elbow is across the throat and when sliding your arm under the throat/neck on the floor in Judo the hand has to be palm up to stop nails cutting whereas for that it doesn't matter in MMA.


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## Brian S (Oct 23, 2007)

Yari said:


> To be honest. Yes.. it will influence your "style" and thinking. So if it's very important for you to be 100% SD, choose something else. Jujitsu is better that way. For judo and JJ, it also depends on the teacher /style.
> 
> /yari


 
 Thanks for your opinion!


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## Brian S (Oct 23, 2007)

MarkBarlow said:


> With the amount of training and your high level of experience, it shouldn't be a major problem to keep the sport separate from the self defense. While I agree that Jujutsu is definitely more real world oriented, Judo training is great from building strong fundamentals.


 
 Thankyou. After considering this for a bit, I agree with your sentiments.


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## Brian S (Oct 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Our instructor will, when showing us a technique, show us the Judo way and the BJJ way. There is a small varience in the techniques but they aren't hard to remember. For example in a rear naked choke in Judo the forearm is across the throat, in MMA/BJJ the crook of the elbow is across the throat and when sliding your arm under the throat/neck on the floor in Judo the hand has to be palm up to stop nails cutting whereas for that it doesn't matter in MMA.


 
 My judo instructor only knows judo, therefore it's not an option to be shown different ways. Competetive Kodokan only.

 Thanks!


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## howard (Oct 24, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Our instructor will, when showing us a technique, show us the Judo way and the BJJ way. There is a small varience in the techniques...


OK, but aren't you still talking about two situations that involve rules-governed competitions?  Or are you talking about BJJ used purely in a self-defense mode?

If it's the former, I think Brian will still face the dilemma he referred to in his initial post.

Brian, is there either a (Japanese) Jujutsu school or a Hapkido school near you?  Sometimes it's easier to find a Hapkido school than a JJ school.  Hapkido derives from some form of Jujutsu, so that in the locking / throwing / pinning techniques used for self defense, there's a lot of overlap between the two arts.  Just something you might want to consider.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2007)

howard said:


> OK, but aren't you still talking about two situations that involve rules-governed competitions? Or are you talking about BJJ used purely in a self-defense mode?
> 
> If it's the former, I think Brian will still face the dilemma he referred to in his initial post.
> 
> Brian, is there either a (Japanese) Jujutsu school or a Hapkido school near you? Sometimes it's easier to find a Hapkido school than a JJ school. Hapkido derives from some form of Jujutsu, so that in the locking / throwing / pinning techniques used for self defense, there's a lot of overlap between the two arts. Just something you might want to consider.


 

Te shows me the Judo way as that's what we teach the children, he shows the BJJ way for MMA and he will actually show us the really nasty way for self defence! The really nasty ways are actially moves on from the Judo ones so I don't see a conflict there. The Judo move will stop at a certain point whereas for the self defence moves it's the same but with a couple of moves added. I wish I could show you! It's like you do the basic scarf hold but if you move your legs a little from that move you can do nasty things to their arms! We've not found it difficult to stop at the point we have to for 'rules' fighting and carrying it on for 'nonrules' fighting. Just wish, not for the first time, this forum was on a video link lol!


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## howard (Oct 24, 2007)

Agreed, Tez, it's hard to convey a lot of this stuff through words only.

I've never trained in Judo, so what I'm about to say with respect to Judo is based on conversations I've had with people who have trained in Judo, and on watching clips of Judo techniques.

I suspect that one of the biggest differences between the Judo and Jujutsu versions of similar techniques is that the joint-locking and breaking elements of the Jujutsu techniques have been removed from the Judo techniques to make the latter safe for competition.  I believe that this is especially true for elbow locks and breaks.

For example,think of the shoulder throw called seionage.  In Judo, my understanding is that uke's arm is turned so that his elbow bends naturally across the shoulder and chest of tori as he takes the throw.  In contrast, the Jujutsu version of the technique that I'm familiar with turns the palm and inner arm of uke's arm upward, so that his elbow is locked on tori's shoulder.  Tori then snaps the elbow joint before completing the throw.

Many of the original Jujutsu techniques attack the joints immediately.  This is one reason (IMO) that Jujutsu can be so useful in self defense.

I hope this makes sense, and if I've made any mistakes about Judo, I hope more knowledgeable members will correct me.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2007)

Howard, that sounds just the sort of thing I was meaning!

I've spent five days so far trying to describe a kata I want to ask people about on the karate forum, it's proving impossible so far and karate is something I'm better at than judo and BJJ as I've being doing it far longer so my descriptions on here have no chance lol!


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## howard (Oct 24, 2007)

Frustrating, isn't it?

btw, just so nobody thinks I'm a technique snob, here's a link to a nice website that has clips of many Judo techniques, including seionage.  Have a look at seionage, and I think you'll see what I mean.  Look in the first column of techniqes, at the bottom.

http://princetonjudo.org/princetonjudo/gokyu/

Notice how uke's left arm comes down across tori's torso, and that the elbow is bent in its natural direction.  Now, imagine doing that same throw, but starting by turning uke's left arm so that his palm and inner arm are upward when you pull his arm across your shoulder, with both of your hands on his wrist.  His elbow will lock immediately, and if he's a normal human being, his body will seize up momentarily in response to the discomfort of the lock.  From there, in a self defense situation, it's fairly easy to badly injure, or even dislocate, the elbow by simply pulling his hand into yourself in an arc while popping up quickly through your hips, driving your shoulder into his hyperextended elbow.

Brian, if you're still out there... is any of this helping you?  I hope so...


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