# Practical Wing Chun



## DanT (Mar 20, 2017)

Does anyone have any experience with practical Wing Chun by Sifu wan kan Leung? How is it different from other lineages?


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## Danny T (Mar 20, 2017)

Don't know anything about Practical Wing Chun but claims he is one of only a few to be certified Senior Instructor by WSL.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 21, 2017)

Is the rest of wing chun impractical?


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## Jut (Mar 21, 2017)

I'll pass a little of the intel I know. According to an article from an older WCI, WKLeung was WSL most senior student. He is well versed in Qigong and evidently incorporated that into his teachings. HIS teachings are quite different from WSLVT and had diverse reactions from visitors, because of those differences.  During those 50 years he made a total re-vamp of his SiFu's system, and with full consent of his SiFu.
He promised Wong SiFu he would never use his name to promote himself and He also promised that once he died, he would change the name of his system and call it _Practical Wing Chun, _to stop any confusion between the two.  His mantra is, 'One must keep moving forward' and this seemed to make WSL genuinely proud of his student for evolving thru elevation, [not just changing for that sake].

The article goes on to explain the differences. Personally.. from the few vids of interviews, and comments of those who knew WSL, he is one of the few Sifu's I would have really enjoyed sharing tea with.
Issue #14, if anyone's interested.


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## Callen (Mar 23, 2017)

DanT said:


> Does anyone have any experience with practical Wing Chun by Sifu wan kan Leung? How is it different from other lineages?



While Wan Kam Leung has changed his curriculum from what Wong Shun Leung taught, the Practical Wing Chun system retains the core WSLVT principals. Having experienced PWC personally, it was easy for me to recognize that it is still WSLVT. There are a lot of spiraling movements, predominantly from the Tan Sau. You will also find that Lan Sau, Crossing-Hand and Passing are implemented often, along with the use of dominating forward pressure and structure.

The biggest differences are in the open-hand forms. While they may seem a bit strange, it's not hard to see how all the shapes support the actions of the system as a whole. I would say there is very little wasted movement. From a WSLVT perspective, I incorporate much of WKL's theories into my personal Wing Chun.

WKL is one of the nicest people in the Wing Chun community you'll ever meet. He's very humble (yet very talented) and open to talking about both PWC and his relationship with WSL. Most PWC kwoons allow visitors to come and train if they are interesting in learning more about the system.

Two great interviews that give solid insight to WKL:

Part 1: Interview with Sifu Wan Kam Leung – San Diego 2016 – Part 1 of 2
Part 2: Interview with Sifu Wan Kam Leung – San Diego 2016 – Part 2 of 2


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## wingerjim (Mar 23, 2017)

DanT said:


> Does anyone have any experience with practical Wing Chun by Sifu wan kan Leung? How is it different from other lineages?


No I don't DanT and not sure if this is something I have heard about or not, but I have heard there is Wing Chun that is not of Ip Man's lineage. This is very feasible as Ip Man did not invent WC and he did study with other students so as long as those students continued to teach, maybe one of them called it "Practical' and passed it on.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 6, 2017)

Their Bong Sao is backward... I had an ongoing dispute with one of those guys... We could find no common ground until one day he sent me pics and a vid. His Bong Sao is a totally different animal. We have a running joke now any time either of us comments on the others thread, we end with "and your Bong Sao is still wrong" lol.


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

I've trained once with Practical Wing Chun guys, they're all good in my book. My BM teacher applauded Wan Kam Leung when he ditched Bong Sau (something that he did very recently) saying, "now the technique is like in other close range Southern styles".


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## wingchun100 (Aug 7, 2017)

wingerjim said:


> No I don't DanT and not sure if this is something I have heard about or not, but I have heard there is Wing Chun that is not of Ip Man's lineage. This is very feasible as Ip Man did not invent WC and he did study with other students so as long as those students continued to teach, maybe one of them called it "Practical' and passed it on.



I think I asked about this on another thread. Interesting how you never hear of any descendants of Ip Man's contemporaries. He is like the Spider-Man of Wing Chun. On every issue of Marvel Comics, they got a picture of Spider-Man in the corner, whether it is a Spider-Man title or not. You say "Wing Chun" and most people (those who recognize that style anyway) think of Ip Man or Bruce Lee, and no one else.


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## karatejj (Aug 7, 2017)

VPT said:


> I've trained once with Practical Wing Chun guys, they're all good in my book. My BM teacher applauded Wan Kam Leung when he ditched Bong Sau (something that he did very recently) saying, "now the technique is like in other close range Southern styles".



Huh, how can u ditch bong sau??


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

He apparently changed it to this:





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1519384444773456


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## karatejj (Aug 7, 2017)

VPT said:


> He apparently changed it to this:



Uh, not sure what Im lookin at there


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## VPT (Aug 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Uh, not sure what Im lookin at there



A short two-count looping drill on repeat. What else?


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## wingchun100 (Aug 7, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Huh, how can u ditch bong sau??



Easy.

Say you and Bong Sao are on a date at a restaurant. When the bill comes, you excuse yourself to the bathroom...and then never come back.


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## karatejj (Aug 8, 2017)

VPT said:


> A short two-count looping drill on repeat. What else?



What is ut suppose to be training??


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## Martial D (Aug 8, 2017)

VPT said:


> He apparently changed it to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uhh.

LOL


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## Phobius (Aug 8, 2017)

karatejj said:


> What is ut suppose to be training??



Standing dump, it is part of survival skills. What if you are in need to take a dump while fighting!


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## geezer (Aug 8, 2017)

Phobius said:


> Standing dump, it is part of survival skills. What if you are in need to take a dump while fighting!



That's just rude and in poor taste, Phobius. 


...I know because it's exactly what I was thinking!


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## wckf92 (Aug 8, 2017)

geezer said:


> That's just rude and in poor taste, Phobius.
> 
> 
> ...I know because it's exactly what I was thinking!



Careful....dont joke around too much or marnetmar will swoop in and call you (us) imbeciles  (again)


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## geezer (Aug 9, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Careful....dont joke around too much or marnetmar will swoop in and call you (us)* imbeciles*  (again)



Well, technically speaking, he may be right.


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## Danny T (Aug 9, 2017)

geezer said:


> Well, technically speaking, he may be right.


I certainly have, at some time or another, (and there are others as well) done, spoken, written, or engaged in foolish and/or idiotic actions/conversations here and elsewhere.
Sooo; imbecile may well be appropriate...at times.


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## Phobius (Aug 9, 2017)

geezer said:


> Well, technically speaking, he may be right.



I would have to agree. One could even say I deserve that for not holding my tongue.

This is me feeling ashamed.


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## geezer (Aug 9, 2017)

Phobius said:


> I would have to agree. One could even say I deserve that for not holding my tongue.
> 
> This is me feeling ashamed.


Just remember, the _real idiots_ never admit to being out of line, and don't feel ashamed.


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## karatejj (Aug 9, 2017)

Phobius said:


> Standing dump, it is part of survival skills. What if you are in need to take a dump while fighting!



Jokin aside, how it do the same thing bong do?


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## Callen (Aug 9, 2017)

Wan Kam Leung did not "ditch" the bong sau. It is included in his curriculum, utilized in forms as well as the wooden dummy.

While I agree that the video posted previously isn't the best isolated example, it is merely a drill. A part of the whole, that when taken out of context, can be misinterpreted. The bong in PWC can be flexible and fold if necessary. It is often used as a feeder or can become a lan sau (implemented as a "fence") in the process.

This may give a better idea of how the bong sau functions within Wan Kam Leung's system:





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155175941664221


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## geezer (Aug 10, 2017)

Callen said:


> Wan Kam Leung did not "ditch" the bong sau. It is included in his curriculum, utilized in forms as well as the wooden dummy  ...This may give a better idea of how the bong sau functions within Wan Kam Leung's system:



That bong is really minimal and _quick_. If you follow the maxim that "bong never stays", it makes a lot of sense. It flashes out, deflects the attack and then in an instant flips back to an elbow-low tan-like position better suited for an attack.

I'm going to experiment with that concept. Chi-sau sometimes encourages us to hang out in bong way too long.


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## KPM (Aug 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> That bong is really minimal and _quick_. If you follow the maxim that "bong never stays", it makes a lot of sense. It flashes out, deflects the attack and then in an instant flips back to an elbow-low tan-like position better suited for an attack.
> 
> I'm going to experiment with that concept. Chi-sau sometimes encourages us to hang out in bong way too long.



That's pretty much exactly how we have been using the Bong in our "Wing Chun Boxing."   In "old school boxing" something very similar was called an "elbow roll."  This morphed into the "shoulder roll" that is now pretty common in modern boxing.


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 11, 2017)

geezer said:


> That bong is really minimal and _quick_. If you follow the maxim that "bong never stays", it makes a lot of sense. It flashes out, deflects the attack and then in an instant flips back to an elbow-low tan-like position better suited for an attack.
> 
> I'm going to experiment with that concept. Chi-sau sometimes encourages us to hang out in bong way too long.


 
My favorite is the bong arm returning to a low elbow position, but with the forearm rolling over on top of and SQUASHING the partner's / opponents limb that you had previously deflected off the line. Its essentially switching to an outside gate I suppose. Very effective in getting a dominant position in gor sau.


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## karatejj (Aug 11, 2017)

geezer said:


> That bong is really minimal and _quick_. If you follow the maxim that "bong never stays", it makes a lot of sense. It flashes out, deflects the attack and then in an instant flips back to an elbow-low tan-like position better suited for an attack.
> 
> I'm going to experiment with that concept. Chi-sau sometimes encourages us to hang out in bong way too long.



Bong GOT to be quick dude, cant work abnother way!


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## karatejj (Aug 11, 2017)

KPM said:


> That's pretty much exactly how we have been using the Bong in our "Wing Chun Boxing."   In "old school boxing" something very similar was called an "elbow roll."  This morphed into the "shoulder roll" that is now pretty common in modern boxing.



Good info!


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## Bino TWT (Aug 11, 2017)

They have this Fook-ish Jum kinda thing that replaces the traditional Bong Sao, even in the forms. The Practical guys I've spoken to have pretty much completely abandoned the Bong Sao as everyone else knows it.


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## karatejj (Aug 11, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> They have this Fook-ish Jum kinda thing that replaces the traditional Bong Sao, even in the forms. The Practical guys I've spoken to have pretty much completely abandoned the Bong Sao as everyone else knows it.



Canot see how Jum replace bong??

They not do same thing??


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## geezer (Aug 12, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Bong GOT to be quick dude,* cant work abnother way!*



Bong can also be used as a yielding deflection rather than aggressively. But either way, it's not a good place to hang out!


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## wayfaring (Aug 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Uh, not sure what Im lookin at there



A drill on how to keep face in punching range LOL?


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## wayfaring (Aug 13, 2017)

geezer said:


> Bong can also be used as a yielding deflection rather than aggressively. But either way, it's not a good place to hang out!


We have 3 bong sau in our SNT.  Each with a different purpose.  No need to abandon bong sau LOL.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 13, 2017)

karatejj said:


> Canot see how Jum replace bong??
> 
> They not do same thing??



This is my buddy Benny from Practical Wing Chun. This is their Bong/Wu.


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## wayfaring (Aug 13, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> This is my buddy Benny from Practical Wing Chun. This is their Bong/Wu.


different - how do they apply that in motion?


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## Bino TWT (Aug 13, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> We have 3 bong sau in our SNT.  Each with a different purpose.  No need to abandon bong sau LOL.



3 in SNT? What lineage? I'd like to see them.


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## Bino TWT (Aug 13, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> different - how do they apply that in motion?



I'm still trying to figure that out myself lmao


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## wayfaring (Aug 13, 2017)

Bino TWT said:


> 3 in SNT? What lineage? I'd like to see them.



Check out 3rd section here:





Not to mention the awesomeness of that hairdo LOL.


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## SOD-WC (Aug 14, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> Check out 3rd section here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wow that is by far the most complicated SLT i have witness to date, there is also a lot of whipping motion. is it common in that lineage?


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## wayfaring (Aug 15, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> wow that is by far the most complicated SLT i have witness to date, there is also a lot of whipping motion. is it common in that lineage?



Our SNT has additional movements and shapes not in Yip Man SNT.   

For example, the 3 bong sau we were discussing.  I've heard so many discussions about this - what is the right height of bong sau?  Is it flat?  Is it angled?  What energy applications does it have?  Does it pull?  Do you use it to crash in sideways to a bridge to influence angle as some do?  We have 3 with different applications - yin bong, hak bong, lan bong.  Specific shapes, specific energies, specific applications.

Maybe your interests are in the simplified.  

However, if we get so simple we remove bong sau, what's next?  We remove fuk and tan also, and go study boxing?


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## Eric_H (Aug 15, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> wow that is by far the most complicated SLT i have witness to date, there is also a lot of whipping motion. is it common in that lineage?



A lot of the differences are due to our Kiu Sao, it's a training layer/technology I haven't seen in the Yip Man System, regardless of branch. It's some cool stuff, works really well for getting an advantage at time of engagement. 

As for the energy/whipping stuff, I mostly was playing up that aspect that for the demo, it's just one expression of Faat Geng/Fa Jing. We've got a number of energy training layers you can play with in SNT.


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## geezer (Aug 23, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> So you study your Wing Chun for cultural and historical reasons? Not for practical fighting?
> 
> I mean, people need to adapt, and how fun a Bong Sau looks does it have real practical use against the trained fighters out there or even the average Joe? For me it had no practical use other than in the own Yip Man - "wing chun eco-system" You also make it sound that boxing is inferior than Wing Chun, is this your sincere opinion?



I'm not sure Yip Man VT has fewer bongs than any other system. In the Yip man branch I study bong is elastic and adaptive. So that while we only have one bong, practiced one particular way at the beginning, we discover that it takes many forms depending on the energy received: frontal bong, turned bong, dai bong, ko bong, lan bong, bong da, ...even shoulder bong.

One bong sau, or an infinite number, or perhaps *no bong *_since it is really just a bent spring trying to strike! _...same as tan and fook. There is a reason these three are our _seed_ techniques. 

As for boxers, I see them using bongs too. Boxer bongs! Similar to the way Alan Orr uses it. Or perhaps I've just had my bell rung too many times. Everywhere I turn it's  Bong, Bong, Bong...

http://avoiderdragon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/thumbnail_floyd-mayweather.jpg


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## Nobody Important (Aug 24, 2017)

FWIW, In Yuan Chai Wan Wing Chun we have the primary shape of the arm which we call Bong (Wing). This is a bent arm position that can be used at several positions and angles. Once one of the 8 Principles (Float, Sink, Spit, Swallow, Burst, Rebound, Lift, Spring) are employed with this arm shape it takes on a new name, Jung Bong, Dai Bong, Lan Sau, Goi Jau, Jaam Jau, Pei Jau, Hei Sau, Kap Jau, etc. The shape of the arm does not change (Hence, still of Bong family), but rather the angle/position from the body, the energy used and contact point (top of forearm, under forearm, elbow, etc.). There is no differentiation between offensive and defensive.  In YCWWC we only have 3 primary shapes, Tan, Bong, Fuk, from here all other positions originate as based on one of the 8 Principles. So in my lineage, Bong is very important. Others may feel differently as to Bong's efficacy.


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## geezer (Aug 24, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> ...we only have 3 primary shapes, Tan, Bong, Fuk, from here all other positions originate as based on one of the ...(basic) principles. So in my lineage, Bong is very important..



Paraphrased as above, what you say is equally applicable to the YM VT (WT)  branch I train. Very different, yet not so different.

...forgive me if I'm unapologetically a "big-picture" or "forest rather than trees" kind guy.


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## VPT (Aug 24, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> FWIW, In Yuan Chai Wan Wing Chun we have the primary shape of the arm which we call Bong (Wing). This is a bent arm position that can be used at several positions and angles. Once one of the 8 Principles (Float, Sink, Spit, Swallow, Burst, Rebound, Lift, Spring) are employed with this arm shape it takes on a new name, Jung Bong, Dai Bong, Lan Sau, Goi Jau, Jaam Jau, Pei Jau, Hei Sau, Kap Jau, etc. The shape of the arm does not change (Hence, still of Bong family), but rather the angle/position from the body, the energy used and contact point (top of forearm, under forearm, elbow, etc.). There is no differentiation between offensive and defensive.  In YCWWC we only have 3 primary shapes, Tan, Bong, Fuk, from here all other positions originate as based on one of the 8 Principles. So in my lineage, Bong is very important. Others may feel differently as to Bong's efficacy.



Yuan Chai Wan Wing Chun is the Vietnamese Wing Chun, amirite?

Whose of his student's style are you studying?


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## Danny T (Aug 24, 2017)

Forms are more of reference material (cliff notes) of a large system. The student learns the major aspects of the system and just because it isn't in the forms doesn't mean it isn't in the system. That is why having a good, knowledgeable instructor in important.


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## Nobody Important (Aug 25, 2017)

VPT said:


> Yuan Chai Wan Wing Chun is the Vietnamese Wing Chun, amirite?
> 
> Whose of his student's style are you studying?


Correct, my sigung' s name in Vietnamese is Bac Quy Doan.


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## wayfaring (Aug 29, 2017)

geezer said:


> I'm not sure Yip Man VT has fewer bongs than any other system. In the Yip man branch I study bong is elastic and adaptive. So that while we only have one bong, practiced one particular way at the beginning, we discover that it takes many forms depending on the energy received: frontal bong, turned bong, dai bong, ko bong, lan bong, bong da, ...even shoulder bong.
> 
> One bong sau, or an infinite number, or perhaps *no bong *_since it is really just a bent spring trying to strike! _...same as tan and fook. There is a reason these three are our _seed_ techniques.
> 
> ...



We've kind of had this ongoing discussion about bong sau training both Ip Man and HFY in the park lately.  Definitely the Ip Man bong can adapt.   We've got some cool stuff in our approach to the 3 shapes too.  

I was more referencing a previous quote I saw about one wing chun teacher trending towards abandoning bong sau altogether.


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## wayfaring (Aug 29, 2017)

Malos1979 said:


> So you study your Wing Chun for cultural and historical reasons? Not for practical fighting?
> 
> I mean, people need to adapt, and how fun a Bong Sau looks does it have real practical use against the trained fighters out there or even the average Joe? For me it had no practical use other than in the own Yip Man - "wing chun eco-system"
> 
> You also make it sound that boxing is inferior than Wing Chun, is this your sincere opinion?



Hi Malos.  No I study Wing Chun for fighting as well as the other reasons.

To me yes I find bong sau of practical use beyond my own wing chun eco system.

No I don't think the sweet science of boxing is "inferior" to wing chun.    I would just encourage wing chun practitioners to look more deeply within their own art before abandoning techniques or principles in wing chun in favor of replacing them with boxing techniques.


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## wayfaring (Aug 29, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> FWIW, In Yuan Chai Wan Wing Chun we have the primary shape of the arm which we call Bong (Wing). This is a bent arm position that can be used at several positions and angles. Once one of the 8 Principles (Float, Sink, Spit, Swallow, Burst, Rebound, Lift, Spring) are employed with this arm shape it takes on a new name, Jung Bong, Dai Bong, Lan Sau, Goi Jau, Jaam Jau, Pei Jau, Hei Sau, Kap Jau, etc. The shape of the arm does not change (Hence, still of Bong family), but rather the angle/position from the body, the energy used and contact point (top of forearm, under forearm, elbow, etc.). There is no differentiation between offensive and defensive.  In YCWWC we only have 3 primary shapes, Tan, Bong, Fuk, from here all other positions originate as based on one of the 8 Principles. So in my lineage, Bong is very important. Others may feel differently as to Bong's efficacy.



Cool thanks for the input - some different applications of the shape with respect to energies and names.  But only 3 primary named shapes.  And important and functional.  Thank you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 29, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Forms are more of reference material (cliff notes) of a large system. The student learns the major aspects of the system and just because it isn't in the forms doesn't mean it isn't in the system. That is why having a good, knowledgeable instructor in important.


I'd say this is true (IMO) of any art that has forms or formal techniques.


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