# GM Yip Man and other WC Lineages



## geezer (Jul 3, 2008)

The Great Grandmaster Yip Man was the first to broadly teach Wing Chun when he taught in Hong Kong in the '50's and '60's. Bruce Lee was the first to make the existence of the system known worldwide. The rest is history. But, other small groups in Hong Kong and back in Fatshat (Fo'shan) did practice Wing Chun tracing roots to other lineages. Of course, until the 90's, the mainland was pretty well isolated from the rest of the world, so you hear less about these groups. Some are close cousins of Grandmaster Yip's lineage, originating with Chan Wah Shun or even Leung Jan in the mid 19th Century. Others are more distant relations. Does anybody here have first hand knowledge or these other lineages?


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## Si-Je (Jul 5, 2008)

Do you know who and what these lineages are?
There was a lady how taught in Fort Worth very very shortly (school went under I guess) and she advertised a Ng Family style of Wing Chun.
I really wanted to catch up with her a check that style out, but they didn't last long at that location.


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## mook jong man (Jul 5, 2008)

I remember that some instructors from our academy went to china to research wing chun back in the 80s . 
They said they met a sifu named Pang Nam or Pang Lam something like that and i think they said it was in Fatshan anyway they said he did the sil lum tao form in a very strange way in that he was sort of hunched over when he did it.
 I also remember doing chi sao sparring with a guy from shanghai who would do strange things like ducking down and moving off to the side in the middle of sparring.
 I asked him about this and he said that was what he was taught to do, also to counter a right cross he would tan sao like we do but his tan sao ended up way off the center line again he said this was the way he was taught to do it. 
I would have liked to question him more about his sifu and his strange techniques but he seemed more interested in trying to hit on the young chinese girl in the office than talking to me so i just put it down to him having crappy technique, or his sifu doesn't know what he's doing , or both .
 But on reflection he could well have been from those mainland lineages.


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I remember that some instructors from our academy went to china to research wing chun back in the 80s .
> They said they met a sifu named Pang Nam or Pang Lam something like that and i think they said it was in Fatshan anyway they said he did the sil lum tao form in a very strange way in that he was sort of hunched over when he did it.



I've seen pictures of Sifu Pang Nam demonstrating form in Leung Ting's book _Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun_. The Pang Nam branch is usually spelled "Weng Chun" in our alphabet, and traces a very different lineage going back to the legendary Shaolin abbott Gee Sin rather than Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun. They also use a different Chinese character when writing the name of their system, hence the translation as "Weng Chun". There is some debate as to how closely related it is to the Yip Man style, with some saying that it is really a totally separate system that has exchanged certain movements with the better known "Wing Chun" system back in the mid 1800's. 

In the same book, I found interesting accounts of several living sifus in Fatshan who trained under Grandmaster Yip in the 40's, before he fled the Communists to Hong Kong. According to Leung Ting, these early Yip Man students learned the forms somewhat differently than the later students in Hong Kong. In some cases it seemed to Leung Ting as though the later versions were more refined and complete, but in other cases he recorded movements that, although omitted in the later versions, seemed valuable and useful. After more than a decade of visiting some of these individuals in Fatshan, most notably Sifus Lun Kwai and Kwok Fu, Leung Ting added or "restored" some of these movements to his versions of the forms in his "Wing Tsun" branch. One of these movements is "Oi Huen Sau" or "Outward rotataing circle-hand" included in addition to the universally used "Noi Huen-Sau" or Inward rotating circle hand. One thing that surprised me was that it took Leung Ting more than a dozen years to decide to make these changes, indicating an unexpected level of technical conservatism and circumspection in a personality who has never been faulted for his excess humility!

In the same book there is also discussion and photos of sifus whose lineage breaks off earlier with Chan Wah Shun and even Leung Jan. But I do not know if any of these people have taught anyone outside the Fatshan region. If any of you have further knowledge of these branches, it would be great if you could share!


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## mook jong man (Jul 6, 2008)

We use the huen sau to recover the centerline and get on the inside of the opponents arm so would i be right in guessing that the outward rotating huen sau is used to get on the outside of the opponents arm and why would they want to do that ?


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## brocklee (Jul 6, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> We use the huen sau to recover the centerline and get on the inside of the opponents arm so would i be right in guessing that the outward rotating huen sau is used to get on the outside of the opponents arm and why would they want to do that ?



lol because it doesn't make sense   HAHAHA I don't think that sounds very modern WC.


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> We use the huen sau to recover the centerline and get on the inside of the opponents arm so would i be right in guessing that the outward rotating huen sau is used to get on the outside of the opponents arm and why would they want to do that ?



In my WC and WT experience, _huen-sau has multiple uses_. In forms, it stretches and strengthens your wrist as well as training the circling movement. In chi sau and sparring, it allows you to stick to and control your opponent's bridge as you move from the oudoor to indoor position or reverse. It also allows you to effortlessly dissolve a wrist grapple. In all these applications the "oi huen sau" may come into play, and as you noted, be used to _recover centerline._ An example would be a lower level wrist grapple in which an opponent firmly grabs and holds down your right wrist with his left hand. Depending on how he applies his force, you can use either version of huen sau to roll out of the grapple and take control of your oponent's bridge. But from the lower level, the reverse or "oi huen-sau" rolls your wrist thumbward and to the inside gate, reclaiming centerline as you put it. I believe this movement is actually common to most WC/WT branches...it's just that it had disappeared from our forms. Well, forms will vary. The proof of any technique is always in the practical application. And, as Grandmaster Yip apparently _did_ teach this movement in his early years, I feel it's definitely worth a careful look. I don't know about Brocklee, but I'm interested in what I can learn from _all branches_ of our art....

BWAA HA HA HA HA... HA HA HA...  (evil laugh, right back atcha)

BTW Brocklee, did you get my last PM?....What's up, man?


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## Si-Je (Jul 6, 2008)

Maybe as a option, you'd us the outside rotating motion to turn the body of your opponent, get yourself out of His/her centerline while keeping them in yours so to speak.   
Pretty handy to use on a stronger or taller attacker.  Instead of just "blasting" straight down the middle of them, you'd use their force to turn their body as you step straight in, giving you the side of the head, neck, knee, etc. and make it easier for you to get behind them for "takedowns" and such.  

Sifu says: would also be good to use against a grappler, to help you re-direct their momentum, force, and inertia.


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## bs10927 (Nov 13, 2008)

just curious. anybody from the Jason Lau->Alan Goldberg lineage?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 13, 2008)

Also Curious

These other lineages, would they come from Leung Jan or his sons, Leung Chun and Leung Bik, or his student Chan Wa Shun? Or are their lineages that come from other people of the same generation as Leung Chun or before?

And am I correct that Yip Mann studied first with Chan Wa Shun and later with Leung Bik?


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## profesormental (Nov 14, 2008)

Greetings.

Read Robert Chu's book "Complete Wing Chun" which goes over the major lineages and does comparisons of their history and training methods.

Very interesting.

Also, here are some good resources listed in the references and external links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branches_of_Wing_Chun

Hope that help.

Juan M. Mercado

P.S. One of my lineages SiFu is Jason Lau and Michael Militano. Pretty much Yip Man training style.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 14, 2008)

Yeah I read that book. Robert Chu is awesome
I love books like that where things are broken down. I got a Randy Williams book where he breaks down siu nim tao piece by piece so you can truly understand movements in the style

Although ultimately, whilst it is interesting to see different lineages, where people are from is not that important. Whilst I don't like Leung Ting or Wiliam Cheung, it would not stop me talking, teaching and training with Cheung or Ting students

Lineage is interesting but not a statement about a persons wing chun

I'm tired of guys who get impressed because a person was taught by someone who was good.


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## geezer (Nov 14, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Lineage is interesting but not a statement about a persons wing chun
> 
> I'm tired of guys who get impressed because a person was taught by someone who was good.


 
You know what _is_ impressive? When somebody who doesn't have a famous teacher still ends up getting really good. 

Right now I train under one guy who fits that description. And also another guy who _did _train under a famous and controversial "GM", and in spite of that (LOL), has also gotten really good. And both of these guys share their knowledge generously! Thanks to both you guys, Maestro Martin and Sifu Jeff.


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 14, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> We use the huen sau to recover the centerline and get on the inside of the opponents arm so would i be right in guessing that the outward rotating huen sau is used to get on the outside of the opponents arm and why would they want to do that ?


 
Do you see no value in being on the outside? You could possibly Jut Sao, and punch. Kinda like how it's done in Dan Chi Sao. Another thought is conditioning. I have been told that Huen Sao is mostly about strengthening the forearm and the grip. Going to the outside would have a similar effect, but would train the muscles in a range of movement.

Related thought, there's  reason why Pan Nam Weng Chun is also called "Snake Style" Weng Chun.


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## BFL (Nov 15, 2008)

CuongNhuka said:


> Related thought, there's reason why Pan Nam Weng Chun is also called "Snake Style" Weng Chun.


 
I've not heard Pan Nam Yong Chun referred to as "Snake Style", would you be kind enough to expound on this?


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## BFL (Nov 15, 2008)

Basic history according the the late GM Pan Nam:

The Wing Chun style was founded by a Buddhist monk called Yat Chan Um Chu-(Piece of Dust the master of a Buddhist nunnery), in the years of Chien Lung (17361795) and Chia Ching (17961820). He lived in a temple in Heng Shan (Mt. Heng) of Hunan Promince for 13 years. There, he taught a student who was nicknamed Tan Sau Ng. 
Tan Sau Ng was a famous actor of the Peking style opera. He later went to Foshan from the North and settled down there. Soon he worked in the King Fa Wui Goon or Precious Jade FLower Society, as organization for the Cantonese opera actors. In there he taught a lot of the actors of the Hung Suen-(Red Boats). At that time he taught Wong Wah Bo, Leung Yee Tai, Dai Fa Min Kam, Lai Fook Suen, and others

  For some who still hold onto the "Legend of Yim Wing Chun" I mean no disrespect nor to other histories or lineage's.  This is only shown to answer questions as to what GM Pan Nam stated as the history of Wing Chun.  I will try and find the article which showed that even Sigung Ip Chun (It might have been Sigung Ip Ching, I'll have to find it) acknowledged that this history is a more reasonable explanation after he actually visited and spent time conversing with Sigung Pan Nam.  Again, I'll have to find the article and will refrain from it's accuracy until I can.  My remberer isn't what it used to be, haha.
Peace to all.


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## BFL (Nov 15, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> I remember that some instructors from our academy went to china to research wing chun back in the 80s .
> They said they met a sifu named Pang Nam or Pang Lam something like that and i think they said it was in Fatshan anyway they said he did the sil lum tao form in a very strange way in that he was sort of hunched over when he did it.
> quote]
> 
> ...


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 15, 2008)

BFL said:


> I've not heard Pan Nam Yong Chun referred to as "Snake Style", would you be kind enough to expound on this?


 
I spent awhile looking up Pan Nam on Google, and ran across the nickname a couple of times. I cann't think of any of those sites though.


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## BFL (Nov 16, 2008)

No worries, I know I've seen some of the Viet Namese Wing Chun referred to as Snake Style and when I observed it, the name seemed to fit.  They perform the same techniques and postures for the most part but with a very heavy emphasis on snake like movements in transitions and applications.  It was very different to say the least.
Peace


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## martyg (Nov 19, 2008)

Heya, was taking a break and just came back.

I'm surprised at Geezer's statement about the mainland being "isolated".  The mainland branches were well known in the wing chun community for years now, especially in Hong Kong circles - they were writing articles on the various branches back in the 70's in New Martial Hero.  You can see reprints of some of the articles at Rene's site (wingchunkuen.com, though I believe he's moving them over to the blog site right now).

As far as other branches, yes, there's plenty of them.  Including those not related through Leung Jan.

Robert (my sifu) and Rene's (a good friend) book previously mentioned, Complete Wing Chun, is a good place to start.  Each chapter was actually contributed by a person from that linneage.

Regarding Pan Nam, his Wing Chun is a mixture of his background in hung ga, weng chun, and wing chun.

And yes, I've had first hand experience with members of the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung, Cho family (Malaysian), and Gulou/Koolo branches.  What would you like to know Geezer?


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## geezer (Nov 19, 2008)

martyg said:


> Heya, was taking a break and just came back.
> 
> I'm surprised at Geezer's statement about the mainland being "isolated". The mainland branches were well known in the wing chun community for years now, especially in Hong Kong circles...
> 
> And yes, I've had first hand experience with members of the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung, Cho family (Malaysian), and Gulou/Koolo branches. What would you like to know Geezer?


 
As to the first part about "isolation". I was just referring to the fact that until the 90's, it was difficult to travel to and from the mainland. For decades, the so called "Bamboo Curtain" limited our knowledge and access.

As far as what I'd like to know about these and other branches of the art? Honestly? _Everything_!


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## martyg (Nov 19, 2008)

geezer said:


> As to the first part about "isolation". I was just referring to the fact that until the 90's, it was difficult to travel to and from the mainland. For decades, the so called "Bamboo Curtain" limited our knowledge and access.


 
I'd certainly agree that the 90's opened up a lot of access - but that had more to do with the technology curtain (Internet) being lifted than travel.  Books like Complete Wing Chun were able to be written because of the Internet specifically and the contact and transfer of knowledge it facilitated. That was one of the reasons I was able to create the first ever, cross branch/family/etc. discussion list back in '92, that enjoyed (and still enjoys) across the world participation.  That's when I myself first became exposed to a lot of the various branches, and not long after found out that most of them were publicly known (in Hong Kong, which is not the bamboo curtain) since the early 70's, specifically thanks to writers like Mok Poi-On.

I sould also say, the "Great grandmaster" thing with regards to Yip Man has always also been odd to me, I usually only hear that reference through Leung Ting branch people.



> As far as what I'd like to know about these and other branches of the art? Honestly? _Everything_!



That's kind of a tall order.  Are there any specifics?  I would advise browsing a copy of Complete Wing Chun to start with, along with some of these articles and sites:

Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung - http://www.wingchunkuen.com/sumnung/

Pao Fa Lien - http://www.w1ng.com/pao-fa-lien-wing-chun-of-foshan/

Gulou/Golao/Koolo - Here's an article on my family's branch of Gulou, there's several different branches there, with the Fung Family (Pien San) being the most prevalent - http://www.chusaulei.com/martial/articles/articles_gulao.html

Here's a vid of some of the Pien San variation of Gulou Wing Chun that includes a look at mainland style rolling (note that Gulou has no forms, and works entirely via a san sik and san sao method of investigation/training) - 




A vid of Cho Ga Wing Chun (Cho family wing chun, malaysian.  Note that Cho family has only one form, Siu Lien Tao, which is a very long form that comprises material from the three forms commonly learned in Yip family) - 




Here's Pan Nam doing a qigong form from his system - 




Here's Pao Fa Lien master Gwok Gai before his death: 




Here's another example of Pao Fa Lien -





Here's Andreas Hoffman's weng chun line (which is a compilation of several weng chen sources) -





Hope that's enough to start with and get you going with some specific questions.


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## BFL (Nov 20, 2008)

I think this is the link for G.M. Pan doing qigong.  Just helping out with the info.


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