# Post academy h2h training



## theletch1 (Mar 8, 2008)

It's always been my understanding that once an officer graduates from the academy he must requal with his sidearm on a regular basis but does not recieve any further training in unarmed combat (aside from OJT).  Since drawing your weapon and certainly firing your weapon is such a huge liability issue for the department would it not make sense for a municipality to cover this sort of training in an effort to better enable the officer to control those resisting him without drawing a weapon, whether it's his side arm or pepper spray or tazer?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 8, 2008)

It makes perfect sence but unfortunately sence always doesn't enter into the equation.


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## theletch1 (Mar 8, 2008)

I know what you mean, Brian.  Friday when I made my delivery to the hospital in Lewisburg, WV I began a discussion with their security guy about the training they get to control someone who goes off the deep end in the ER or really anywhere in the hospital.  While he's not a police officer this conversation will fall right into place with "making sense".  He told me that the last person to get any training AT ALL was him when they hired him back in 2005.  He had to attend a 10 weekend class on unarmed techniques for take downs and locks and such.  Since then no one that they had hired (which amounts to all but 2 of their staff) has had ANY training in h2h what so ever.  They were afraid of the liability of one of their security officers injuring someone.  They now carry only a radio and are allowed only to observe and call the local law enforcement.  Just how much damage could someone do in the time it takes the police to arrive?  

This sort of thing (continuing ed in h2h) would seem like a great business opportunity for someone if they could get around the liability issue.


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## jks9199 (Mar 8, 2008)

Like so much in the US -- this is entirely dependent on the agency.  Some do annual or semi-annual DT refresher training.  Others require nothing, but offer various programs through their in-service training as one of many options.  And many just can't find the time and money to offer anything -- though individual officers often do train in various martial arts on their own.

Ironically -- I'd say it's almost certainly NOT an issue of liability!  It's really just an issue of time and money demands on the training budget.  Many agencies only qualify annually with their firearms; I'm fortunate in that mine qualifies 4 times a year.  Virginia requires me to get 80 hours of in-service training every two years; 4 hours of that must be legal, 2 hours (newly added; I'm not 100% clear if it's two additional or two of the 80), and the rest are professional development.  That includes things like radar recertification, legal updates, DUI refreshers, gang training, and lots more -- but NOT things like training on new report procedures or forms, or new response training (like active shooter exercises)!  And training budgets are often the first hit as the overall budget shrinks...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Like so much in the US -- this is entirely dependent on the agency. Some do annual or semi-annual DT refresher training. Others require nothing, but offer various programs through their in-service training as one of many options. And many just can't find the time and money to offer anything -- though individual officers often do train in various martial arts on their own.
> 
> Ironically -- I'd say it's almost certainly NOT an issue of liability! It's really just an issue of time and money demands on the training budget. Many agencies only qualify annually with their firearms; I'm fortunate in that mine qualifies 4 times a year. Virginia requires me to get 80 hours of in-service training every two years; 4 hours of that must be legal, 2 hours (newly added; I'm not 100% clear if it's two additional or two of the 80), and the rest are professional development. That includes things like radar recertification, legal updates, DUI refreshers, gang training, and lots more -- but NOT things like training on new report procedures or forms, or new response training (like active shooter exercises)! And training budgets are often the first hit as the overall budget shrinks...


 
Yes that really is the case.  Around here we have one department that trains quarterly with Defensive Tactics and also qualifies with their firearms quarterly as well.  Then on the other end most agencies around here do almost nothing.


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## Drac (Oct 17, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> It's always been my understanding that once an officer graduates from the academy he must requal with his sidearm on a regular basis but does not recieve any further training in unarmed combat (aside from OJT). Since drawing your weapon and certainly firing your weapon is such a huge liability issue for the department would it not make sense for a municipality to cover this sort of training in an effort to better enable the officer to control those resisting him without drawing a weapon, whether it's his side arm or pepper spray or tazer?


 
Don't know how I missed this thread..You are quite correct..Some departments will have an in house class, maybe once a year or so. For the record  I HATE to use my pepper spray..The cross contamination is a pain..


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## kyosa (Oct 18, 2008)

From a Martial Artist and DT instructor perspective I would love to do DT training an hour before every shift every day.  The odds of that happening are zero.  Currently we do DT training twice a year.  When I first started with my Dept.  We had training initially when we were hired and after 3 years with no DT training I asked the Sheriff when we would be going through DT training again.  His response was "you've been through the training once-why would you want to go through it again?"

What really shocks me is when the staff grumble about doing DT training.  The reality is that when you first learn a technique you have to think about it.  It's only with practice that you get good enough at it that you don't have to think about it.  And when someone is swinging at your head the last thing you want to do is have to think about your response.


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## kyosa (Oct 18, 2008)

For the record I HATE to use my pepper spray..The cross contamination is a pain.

Yeah I'll Tase em rather than spray em given the opportunity.  However I have been exposed to OC/CS so much it really doesn't bother me much.  I think the more you are exposed to it you almost develope an immunity or partial immunity to the stuff


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## theletch1 (Oct 19, 2008)

kyosa said:


> From a Martial Artist and DT instructor perspective I would love to do DT training an hour before every shift every day.  The odds of that happening are zero.  Currently we do DT training twice a year.  When I first started with my Dept.  We had training initially when we were hired and after 3 years with no DT training I asked the Sheriff when we would be going through DT training again.  *His response was "you've been through the training once-why would you want to go through it again?"*
> 
> What really shocks me is when the staff grumble about doing DT training.  The reality is that when you first learn a technique you have to think about it.  It's only with practice that you get good enough at it that you don't have to think about it.  And when someone is swinging at your head the last thing you want to do is have to think about your response.


The bolded part really surprises me.  I'm not a cop so a lot of the inner workings of a department are a mystery to me which I rely on you guys to "de-mystify".  I would have thought that someone in a position of authority would want his personell to be as highly trained in less than lethal means of defense as possible.

As for grumbling about the training... well, I can remember a fair bit of grumbling in the Marine Corps about a lot of different training that would likely save our butts.  It's the nature of humans to grumble, I think.


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## KenpoTex (Oct 19, 2008)

kyosa said:


> From a Martial Artist and DT instructor perspective I would love to do DT training an hour before every shift every day. The odds of that happening are zero. Currently we do DT training twice a year. When I first started with my Dept. We had training initially when we were hired and after 3 years with no DT training I asked the Sheriff when we would be going through DT training again. His response was *"you've been through the training once-why would you want to go through it again?"*
> 
> What really shocks me is when *the staff grumble about doing DT training.* The reality is that when you first learn a technique you have to think about it. It's only with practice that you get good enough at it that you don't have to think about it. And when someone is swinging at your head the last thing you want to do is have to think about your response.


 
The above attitutes are the reason most cops can't shoot or fight...

The company I work for does quarterly handgun quals and annual DT recert (not enough but at lease they do something).  The sad thing is that, to my knowledge, the LE agencies/dept's in the area only do it once a year.


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## kailat (Oct 19, 2008)

OH man, you guys are hitting it right on the head.  I just found this thread also..

 I work as a City Reserve Officer which allows me to work PT at our local hospital for security.   I'll be honest man, our staff (security) at the hospital are either  A ) LAZY  B) think they are billy bad asses and can whoop on anyone.   Now granted in an emergecy situation 2 or more staff members on 1 individual usually is all needed to subdue or detain someone.  But what if your alone?

Our dept;  does DT's every quarter on top of a crap load of other required training we have to undergoe constantly.  

 But as for the H2H myself and the chief are the only ones who train constantly or often (thru extra training or ma training etc)

 Gettin the other officers off thier bums outside the ER "fishbowl" to train is simply a waste of energy.

 I held a seminar yesterday and it was actually held at the Hospital in our aerobics room where wedo our DT's at.  

 Anyway the Chief (a good friend of mine) actually told the officers he would use his allowence to pay for any officer who wanted to attend this seminar w/ GM Tortal.  SO NONE OF THEM HAD TO PAY A DIMEOF THIER OWN MONEY!!   Guess what?   NONE of them attended..  Not a single officer...

 I used to teach Defensive Tactics pretty occassionally, but stopped after having to deal w/ arrogance, attitude and simple minded police officers who felt extra training is not necessary, let alone didn't take the training seriously.  So I stepped back away from that scene.  

 At anyrte from a serious practicioer I feel any training in this line of work is essential and shouldbe taken serious at any time you can get it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 19, 2008)

Wow Cory that is amazing that none of them attended the Grand Tuhon's seminar.  Though not that surprising!


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## KenpoTex (Oct 19, 2008)

funny/pathetic story...

Two or three quals ago, when we walked into the range, the range-master told us that one of the local PDs had been there the day before for their annual qual.  There were five, that's FIVE!!! bullet-holes either through the tables (the fold-out type where you can put your stuff while you shoot) or the partitions (between the shooting lanes) from different officers having NDs while on the range.  

The ironic part is that I'm sure, to a man, they all look down their noses at "lowly private security guys" like me because they consider themselves to be the professionals...


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## kailat (Oct 19, 2008)

Well Brian, I extended this information out to all the local departments in our area.  I am very familiar w/ almost every officer in our county.  And many respect me.  But it's amazing that none of them would attend training that was geared around defense against weapons training.


 BUT BY GOD you bring in some MMA super UFC fighter and I'll bet you get 1/4 of the officers in town to attend.

  I am an avid believer in " To each his own"  But i'll just continue to do what I do...  But, what really cracks me up is when Im on DUTY either at the ER/hospital or when Im pulling my reserve time, they always scream for me to assist anytime a 10-10 is called..LOL..  UNIT #226 are u availabe to assist?   LOL.. just one time I'd like to say no, Im 10-6.. But I always enjoy a good confrontation so I signal 10 to most of these calls at every chance I can...LOL


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## Brad Dunne (Oct 19, 2008)

I've voiced an opinion on this subject on another thread, but where and when escapes me at the moment. For the majority of most departments, it is a liability issue. The folks that make up and oversee the guidelines for officer use of force matrix are lawyers. It is far easier to justify use of deadly force, then it is to offset the ever popular "police brutality" allegations. Don't think so?, The officer claimed that the perp made a move into his clothing or the perp looked to have something in his hand that looked like a weapon............so officer is now justified in the use of deadly force. Now take that same officer and same perp and instead, the officer physically knocks the living crap out of the guy. Next scene is in court, with the perps lawyer and the perp has a broken jaw, broken arm, multiple cuts and lots of bandages and the lawyer has just made reservations for his new trip to the Islands. 

Leo's are taught and directed to "control", therefor there's no training for the real world knock down and drag outs. Most Leo's get hurt by their own people, not on purpose, but rather due to the "dog pile", -- cops on top of cops attempting to control the subject, only getting in each other's way and causing injury to each other. Tazers and sprays cost money and they also have their own downfalls. Tazers have caused deaths and sprays can spread to far and even backfire on the one using it. Some folks, sprays have little effect on also. But, since this is how the majority of Leo's are trained, they inturn become dependent on departmental procedures and the tools they are allowed to use, thus leaving a huge void and showing that most cops couldn't really fight their way out of a wet paper bag. They become totally dependent on "numbers". When an officer gets seriously injured or worse, the investigation shows and we've even seen it on the TV show "Cops", that the officer attempted to use control techniques on a subject, with no "backup" and inturn, suffered for this action. Until such time as the powers that be realize that Leo's need real fighting skills and are willing to mandate and fund it, we'll still be here, venting our frustrations.


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## kailat (Oct 19, 2008)

Brad: As a simple reply to your post above this one!!  I agree w/ you totally on the issue of deadly force.  In fact it is proven that deadly force continum is necessary as force escalates..  But, to make this point "again" maybe a little more serious and easy to understand by using this exact scenario...

 As mentioned I brought in a very well known Grnd Master and anyone who trains in or in other systems like Dekiti Tirsia Siradis knows that the premise of this system is teaching defense by way of deadly force if need be.  If there is any martial art system out there that is geared for military or law enforcement defense on howto deal w/a weapon and how to minimize assault, or how to survive a deadly force incident in the instant that anyone be it a civilian, soldier, or police/L.E.O....

 But when you say Lawyers don't want officers to administer holds, or things that would be considered a liability.. Hence forth the reason why many DT's has done away w/ the LVR choke hold.  BECAUSE IF I CAN"T SHOOT YOU when you pull a knfe on me, but i choke you out im liable.  But since 99% of LEO carry tactical folder knives for self defense which many don't have proper training touse this tool either to administer it, nor defend against it properly.   But alot of police officers will study Karate, or MMA.  Now not that I have a problem w/ these arts but I think Kali has not got the understanding and is still a bit tabooo to those who are from the outside looking in.  Unless they have had the opportunity to study it, and understand it they will always see Kali (FMA) as a TABOO or subsidized martial art.   In the defense of FMA it is by far the most effective system  of a martial art that LEO should look into.  But as i've stated for the very small 5% of LEO's who actually train outside of their job and Qual DT's  prob an even smaller 1% of LEO 's prob actually train FMA..  Thats just my opinion.

 I myself just feel a little offended when I hear FMA is a liability.  Its no more a liability than TKD.  If a person is not mature enough to handle the material and understand how to use the material taught to them.  THE I PERSONALLY DO NOT FEEL THEY SHOULD BE MATURE ENOUGH TO HANDLE A JOB AS AN LEO...  

I've heard officers say, I don't want to train something that teaches me to cut someone or defend against a knife. Yet these same officers are the ones who carry 2 service pistols, and tactical folding blades along w/ a plethora of different improvised weapons on thier duty belts... To me they are just scared.   As for me im pretty confident w/ my colapsable baton, and folder,and pepper spray to get me thru just about any conflict I would ever encounter outside of an all out firefight!!


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## Brad Dunne (Oct 19, 2008)

But when you say Lawyers don't want officers to administer holds, or things that would be considered a liability..

I never said that lawyers don't want officers to administer holds. Holds are a controlling technique and are taught in DT classes. There is a big difference between controlling a subject and beating him half to death and that's where the liability issue comes into play. You agreed with the deadly use of force reference and that was the example of how departmental procedures written and/or overviewed by lawyers play into officers actions on the street.

You validated my point when you submitted that "many DT's has done away w/ the LVR choke hold." Why do away with the choke hold, if it's a viable tool and falls within departmental guidelines? Apparently it didn't and so it has been removed from many, if not all curriculums. 

Many styles of martial arts, if their taught correctly, have value to Leo's, not just the FMA's. Sadly though, most are not and thusly they become detrimental instead of an asset. But because departments don't want officers to exceed policy / procedures, most do not offer or openly endorse outside training in the arts. It's also not a question of maturity in handling the material, but rather the use of said material itself, for it conflicts with given policy / procedures.   

I've heard officers say, I don't want to train something that teaches me to cut someone or defend against a knife.

We learn a basic defense against the knife, that's one of the nightstick/baton uses, but departments would rather an officer use his weapon in such a case, as opposed to attempting to disarm via physical force. I can understand that statement about officers not wanting additional training against the knife, because policies dictate they don't have to and don't want you to. But you have to ask yourself this question; "I carry a gun and I'm authorized to use it, why in the world would I or should I take the chance against a knife welding attacker of getting seriously cut or killed, because I attempted to physically disarm him. Where not paid to show how macho we are, but rather to get a job done with the least amount of injuries to ourself and fellow officers.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2008)

kailat said:


> Anyway the Chief (a good friend of mine) actually told the officers he would use his allowence to pay for any officer who wanted to attend this seminar w/ GM Tortal.  SO NONE OF THEM HAD TO PAY A DIMEOF THIER OWN MONEY!!   Guess what?   NONE of them attended..  Not a single officer...


 You've got to be KIDDING ME!!!  He could send me to train with GM Tortal ANY DAY!

I happen to be one of those 1% of LEO's apparently who train in Kali among other disciplines.


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## kailat (Oct 20, 2008)

Not to get into a large flame war, and I defenitly want this to stay away from a "cop bashing" thread as well.  

 I understand the value and the importance of Defensive Tactics Training.  I am certified to instruct the PPCT amongst many other courses as taught at the ILEA PST under Doc Paul Whitesell.

 Nonetheless, I just feel that as an officer it is not only their duty, but should be a necessity to have the drive, and desire to want to explore a method of tactics outside the given area of LEO PPCT and or Madanock (that some depts teach) system.   But again I fall back into my favorite saying of:  " To EACH THIER OWN "   

 And yes Sgtmac, I think that was awesome of the Chief to extend this invitation to his staff.. It's a shame none of them took the time not even to come and watch or see GM.  Let alone partake in it.. BUT TO EACH HIS OWN....

 Gotta run headed to Spartansburg SC here in a few...


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## Drac (Oct 20, 2008)

kailat said:


> BUT BY GOD you bring in some MMA super UFC fighter and I'll bet you get 1/4 of the officers in town to attend.


 
Sad but true....


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 21, 2008)

kailat said:


> Not to get into a large flame war, and I defenitly want this to stay away from a "cop bashing" thread as well.
> 
> I understand the value and the importance of Defensive Tactics Training.  I am certified to instruct the PPCT amongst many other courses as taught at the ILEA PST under Doc Paul Whitesell.
> 
> ...



Oh you'll get no dispute from me.....PPCT and the basic Monodnock/Asp courses are entry level training programs designed to teach folks who have ZERO skill-sets to fall back on enough to fill the gap until they have enough time to develop better skills.  They are quick fixes, and should not be considered an end to training.


I've actually finally talked some of the new guys at my department in to going to the gym to work on some skills once or twice a week.  Last night was our first night and only one showed up (i've got three more who should be at the next one).

I started him working some boxing movement drills, some basic punches, I got him working on some Judo break-falls to learn how to hit the ground in a control manner, we hit the contact pads and the speed bag.  Next week i'm going to start them rolling around on the ground with some drills designed to help them maintain position and control in a ground struggle.  All the things they either didn't teach in the academy, or covered in the most basic and cursory ways due to time constraints.

As I told my guy last night, one of the most important things he's going to learn is how to move an how to fall without getting injured.  I also said we'd work a lot on boxing/muay thai related movement drills and sparring so they'd get used to what it's like for someone to throw punches at them.  They'll get used to hitting and taken a hit.  I told him that learning to punch and spar is useful even if they never actually throw a punch on the street, because folks throw punches on the street.....you get used to sparring, you can see a punch coming without being surprised, and no how to move to avoid it.

He kind of blinked when I told him to bring back a mouth piece next week.....he said they didn't need one in the academy.....I said they didn't spar and hit each other in the academy.


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