# Looking at opening a school



## Poppity (Aug 30, 2020)

Hi,

I am looking at opening a school next year and was hoping people might be willing to share the most useful lessons they've learnt in preparing to do so.

I am intending to give it about 3-6 months to measure its popularity across a range of ages.  It seems that the most popular ages are likely to be for kids, (parents looking for a bit of wrap around school care), but I would like to also teach adults depending on financial viability.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## wckf92 (Aug 30, 2020)

Snark said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am looking at opening a school next year and was hoping people might be willing to share the most useful lessons they've learnt in preparing to do so.
> 
> ...



Congrats dude! 
My 2 cents is location location location. Do your DD on where the other MA schools are in the area; which ones are successful and why; which ones are not doing so well and why; etc.


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## Poppity (Aug 30, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> Congrats dude!
> My 2 cents is location location location. Do your DD on where the other MA schools are in the area; which ones are successful and why; which ones are not doing so well and why; etc.



Hey thanks! lot of ground work to put in. Will have a look round a few more, so much to organise. Hoping it will all fall into that mark twain quote of find a job you enjoy doing, and you will never have to work a day in your life.


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## wckf92 (Aug 30, 2020)

Snark said:


> Hey thanks! lot of ground work to put in. Will have a look round a few more, so much to organise. Hoping it will all fall into that mark twain quote of find a job you enjoy doing, and you will never have to work a day in your life.



Yeah that does sound good! haha. I had two schools over the years. It was fun. Never was a big money maker though. Good luck and let us know how it goes!


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## Poppity (Aug 30, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> Yeah that does sound good! haha. I had two schools over the years. It was fun. Never was a big money maker though. Good luck and let us know how it goes!



Thanks again.


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## Headhunter (Aug 30, 2020)

Not the best idea right now.,..more schools are closing down than opening


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## Flying Crane (Aug 30, 2020)

I would do your homework, but don’t sign any leases until we are confident that we are moving past Covid, meaning there is a viable vaccine.  

A BJJ school tried to open near me just before Covid hit, it has just been an empty space ever since, with a new sign over it.  I imagine the fellow is paying rent every month.


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## Buka (Aug 30, 2020)

A lot of good advice so far in this thread. As Headhunter said, schools are closing down all over the place. Here on Maui, I honestly don't know if there will be any left at all by the time Covic is gone. 

However, that creates a void and the opportunity to fill said void. I caution you that if history repeats - the virus will just about be gone.....and then come roaring back for a round two as it did with the Spanish Flu of a century ago. I believe that's a good thing to keep in mind.

As wckf said, location. That's key. The more populated the area the better chance of success.

As Flying Crane said - homework. You have to do your homework like your school's life depended on it. Cuz it really does.

So take your time, see how this pandemic thing shakes out. 

Wishing you success and good fortune going forward, brother.


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## Poppity (Aug 31, 2020)

Thanks for the advice guys. Your absolutely right about covid and France and Spain are both in their second wave already so UK will be hit soon.

 Coupled with Brexit in the UK taking effect on the 27th of January (which is predicted to severly disrupt medical, fuel and food supplies into the UK) there is probably not going to be a good time to open a school for a couple of years. 

Still, I should be in a position next year to open a school for 6 months and for it to be an utter financial failure, without it effecting me greatly. So it's a bit of, if not now, when?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2020)

Could you meet with small groups in a nearby park where you could have proper distancing between people and not pay rent? Build a body of students that way in an outdoor situation where it is safer.


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## john_newman (Aug 31, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Could you meet with small groups in a nearby park where you could have proper distancing between people and not pay rent? Build a body of students that way in an outdoor situation where it is safer.


I agree with this idea, a nearby park is the best place to meet some people in a safer way. Talk with people who are running, jogging, or working out around.


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## paitingman (Aug 31, 2020)

Very basic, but it's always nice to be able to have a really good conversation with the student, and parent if they are younger, before they sign up or right after. Almost like an interview. I would find out and write down what their specific interests and goals are. Both student and parent. 
It's a good time to share your goals and passions as well. Tell them what you love about teaching and how you try to make an impact in people's lives.
I found it helped with retention when we knew what the students like and what changes, if any, the parent is looking to see in the student after attending. 
It also helps weed out people who may just not be a good fit or just be looking for something too outside of what you offer. 
The few times this happened, I was more than happy to personally get them in touch with another instructor I knew if I thought they'd be a better fit there. Obviously, you don't have to go that far.
You're free to enroll em as fast as you can, but
you'll never fill up classes if students are consistently quitting each month. Devote at least as much attention to retention as new leads and can have a very healthy, happy, decently sized class quicker than you might think.

All the best!


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2020)

john_newman said:


> I agree with this idea, a nearby park is the best place to meet some people in a safer way. Talk with people who are running, jogging, or working out around.


Maybe do some advertising to build the interest with the understanding that it would be in the park so people understand the arrangement:


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## Flying Crane (Aug 31, 2020)

paitingman said:


> Very basic, but it's always nice to be able to have a really good conversation with the student, and parent if they are younger, before they sign up or right after. Almost like an interview. I would find out and write down what their specific interests and goals are. Both student and parent.
> It's a good time to share your goals and passions as well. Tell them what you love about teaching and how you try to make an impact in people's lives.
> I found it helped with retention when we knew what the students like and what changes, if any, the parent is looking to see in the student after attending.
> It also helps weed out people who may just not be a good fit or just be looking for something too outside of what you offer.
> ...


I am an advocate of “we reserve the right to refuse service”.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

paitingman said:


> Very basic, but it's always nice to be able to have a really good conversation with the student, and parent if they are younger, before they sign up or right after. Almost like an interview. I would find out and write down what their specific interests and goals are. Both student and parent.
> It's a good time to share your goals and passions as well. Tell them what you love about teaching and how you try to make an impact in people's lives.
> I found it helped with retention when we knew what the students like and what changes, if any, the parent is looking to see in the student after attending.
> It also helps weed out people who may just not be a good fit or just be looking for something too outside of what you offer.
> ...


Fully agree with everything you said. But the OP needs to understand and prepare for the fact that attrition is a very real part of the MA business. Retention always has to out pace or at least keep up with attrition.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Snark said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am looking at opening a school next year and was hoping people might be willing to share the most useful lessons they've learnt in preparing to do so.
> 
> ...


I wish you the very best. At the risk of boring everyone else I suggest you look at my post history on this topic. I have posted quite a bit on the subject. 
The number one thing is to have a real business plan. Then a secondary plan. Then a fallback plan. Then get ready to recreate yourself after a while. Especially with the current climate it is one of the toughest businesses to successfully start from scratch, or any other way for that matter. 
Search out your local resources such as the school systems and professional societies, both for resources and clientele. You should expect to operate at a loss for a while and be willing to do a Ton of charity and gratis work. Do Not take huge risks and keep overhead at an absolute minimum. Assuming this is not your source of income do not expect to pay yourself for at least the first year and bank anything you can. Do Not feel bad about taking advantage of the retail opportunities out there (uniform/gear, etc...). Never, never commit to a lease. There are much better relationships to start with. If you get to the point where you are seriously considering a long term lease for space or location you should have already been figuring out how to purchase space. 
Give 'em hell and let us know how you proceed.


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## Poppity (Sep 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I wish you the very best. At the risk of boring everyone else I suggest you look at my post history on this topic. I have posted quite a bit on the subject.
> The number one thing is to have a real business plan. Then a secondary plan. Then a fallback plan. Then get ready to recreate yourself after a while. Especially with the current climate it is one of the toughest businesses to successfully start from scratch, or any other way for that matter.
> Search out your local resources such as the school systems and professional societies, both for resources and clientele. You should expect to operate at a loss for a while and be willing to do a Ton of charity and gratis work. Do Not take huge risks and keep overhead at an absolute minimum. Assuming this is not your source of income do not expect to pay yourself for at least the first year and bank anything you can. Do Not feel bad about taking advantage of the retail opportunities out there (uniform/gear, etc...). Never, never commit to a lease. There are much better relationships to start with. If you get to the point where you are seriously considering a long term lease for space or location you should have already been figuring out how to purchase space.
> Give 'em hell and let us know how you proceed.



Thanks

I will certainly look over your post history.

Your right as this is not intended to be my principal income. It's really just trying to organise something where i can train more and teach because I really enjoy it.  Like most new businesses I expect it to lose money initially but if it can begin to break even (excluding initial outlay) would be great in itself.

It's just trying to consider all aspects to give it the best chance of success, and some of that will come from those with experience and hindsight. So thank you!


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2020)

I'm still planning on opening a school.  But I'm trying to time it for when COVID-19 is no longer a detrimental issue.   At the moment I'm using the lessons of 1918 to help me navigate COVID-19.  In a lot of ways we are better off in terms of technology but we are worse off because we have way more people now than we did in 1928 and a lot of people now still don't take COVID-19 seriously.  According to some business sources 1 and 3 people don't believe COVID-19 has killed as many people as the numbers claim.

The Q'Anon movement is gaining support and many are believing that crap.  I suspect that's why the 1918 flu got so bad because similar things happened then.  There were probably a lot of Snake Oil salesmen selling cures for the flu as well.  All of that probably played into the 1918 flu pandemic.  That means the US and some other countries are right on course to have a serious outbreak once the flu and cold season kicks in.  

The reason I'm following the business stats is because I know that people are less political about numbers when it comes to money.  Business in general looks at a scenario and then tries to identify how to either save money or make money off of that scenario.  I'm doing the same thing in terms of opening a school.  Trying to identify how I can take advantage of the COVID-19 situation.  I'm paying attention to Job losses and disposable income.  I'm also looking at the trends that followed 1918 to help me get an idea of some the things I can expect in terms of cultural changes.

Right now my idea building is one that has some space for outdoor training.   Outdoor training space has always been a plus for me because it's like having an extra room that is rent free.  Other martial arts schools may be looking for the same thing so I have to keep that in mind as well.  I'm also looking into how to do live online classes as well. 

I'm using September 2020 - January 2021 to see how things play out with the U.S. government and hwo it's currently managing the virus.  I know some countries aren't going to have the same challenge.  But right now there's no unified approach to dealing with the virus.  Everyone has their own plan, which is like a football team with players who have their own plan of which play to run, independent of the quarterback.

There's a lot of things to take into consideration and depending on where you are the Pandemic is either going to make or break you.  The last thing you want to do is to start a business only to have to go into lockdown a month later.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2020)

Snark said:


> Thanks for the advice guys. Your absolutely right about covid and France and Spain are both in their second wave already so UK will be hit soon.
> 
> Coupled with Brexit in the UK taking effect on the 27th of January (which is predicted to severly disrupt medical, fuel and food supplies into the UK) there is probably not going to be a good time to open a school for a couple of years.
> 
> Still, I should be in a position next year to open a school for 6 months and for it to be an utter financial failure, without it effecting me greatly. So it's a bit of, if not now, when?


I hate to say this but also keep an eye on the US in terms of the Pandemic.  There is a concern that the pandemic will bounce from one end of the world to the next.  If the US can't get things under control then it's possible that the U.S. will cause the spread to continue once we hit our flu and cold season.  

Until the business environment becomes more friendly,  I would probably spend more time building a following at this moment.  Something like that could help you for when you open if people are already familiar with who you are.


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## wckf92 (Sep 1, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> ...and a lot of people now still don't take COVID-19 seriously.  According to some business sources 1 and 3 people don't believe COVID-19 has killed as many people as the numbers claim.



I'm not saying this virus isn't an issue; but when the organization that people and businesses take their cues from puts out crap like this...it just confirms what the majority of us have known for a while. Especially when MSM and social media platforms are quick to remove and / or ban anyone except their "experts" on the evil virus statistics.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

wckf92 said:


> I'm not saying this virus isn't an issue; but when the organization that people and businesses take their cues from puts out crap like this...it just confirms what the majority of us have known for a while. Especially when MSM and social media platforms are quick to remove and / or ban anyone except their "experts" on the evil virus statistics.
> 
> View attachment 23094


Yep, 94% rate of error in reporting C-19 deaths. Straight from the CDC. Not a shock but then again shocking that they finally admitted there has been an enormous amount of mixing in the stats. 
I am expecting another shoe to drop on this one.


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

You guys...  you're getting your information either directly or indirectly from whackadoo conspiracy theory sites.

Why COVID-19 isn’t the only listed cause of most virus deaths | king5.com



> Twitter took down one tweet on Sunday, which President Donald Trump had retweeted earlier in the day, that reportedly claimed the CDC had "quietly" updated its numbers "to admit that only 6%" of people listed as coronavirus deaths "actually died from Covid."
> 
> The tweet was made by an account named Mel Q. T*he Q stands for QAnon, a far-right conspiracy theory, according to Forbes.* Even though the tweet was removed, throughout Sunday, "only 6%" was trending on the social media platform. Others were tweeting similar false information.


Emphasis added by me to highlight how you guys are being spoonfed information from far right wing conspiracy sites.  

We've known from the beginning that most of the folks who are dying or are at highest risk of death are people with additional health considerations.  If anything, we should be alarmed that thousands of people with zero health indicators of high risk are dying.  That should put to rest the allegations that only old and sick people are at risk.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Steve said:


> You guys...  you're getting your information either directly or indirectly from whackadoo conspiracy theory sites.
> 
> Why COVID-19 isn’t the only listed cause of most virus deaths | king5.com
> 
> ...



CNN, CNBC, etc...,  the CDC and all other news feeds have reported this.
Not sure what whackadoo outlet you are following but you need to pull your head out of the sand. It is the easiest information out there to understand.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Steve said:


> You guys...  you're getting your information either directly or indirectly from whackadoo conspiracy theory sites.
> 
> Why COVID-19 isn’t the only listed cause of most virus deaths | king5.com
> 
> ...



Funny, actually hilarious. I checked your link. No surprise it is a local news station reporting limited, biased, and dated information. What a bunch of leftist misinformation The west/northwest chooses to lock themselves in a box and create their own false reality. Your opinion is meaningless and not shocking at all.


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> CNN, CNBC, etc...,  the CDC and all other news feeds have reported this.
> Not sure what whackadoo outlet you are following but you need to pull your head out of the sand. It is the easiest information out there to understand.


The information about high risk individuals has been common knowledge since the very beginning of the pandemic.  Literally nothing new.

The specific talking points you're regurgitating without any critical thought are the conspiracy du jour.



dvcochran said:


> Funny, actually hilarious. I checked your link. No surprise it is a local news station reporting limited, biased, and dated information. What a bunch of leftist misinformation The west/northwest chooses to lock themselves in a box and create their own false reality. Your opinion is meaningless and not shocking at all.


Oh no.  Now you don't trust local news outlets, either?  Here you go.  Links below to some news feeds, including the ones you allege to have seen this "news" on.  Good lord.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article245382320.html
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/09/cdc-did-not-admit-only-6-of-recorded-deaths-from-covid-19/
https://www.vox.com/2020/9/1/21410352/cdc-6-percent-covid-19-deaths-comorbidities
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/30/poli...rus-deaths-false-claim-qanon-trump/index.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/01/fau...-toll-there-are-180000-plus-deaths-in-us.html


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

Duplicate post


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

Another duplicate post.


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

Okay. The site is trolling me at this point.


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

..


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

..


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Steve said:


> The information about high risk individuals has been common knowledge since the very beginning of the pandemic.  Literally nothing new.
> 
> The specific talking points you're regurgitating without any critical thought are the conspiracy du jour.
> 
> ...


Okay I guess? You are correct; The information about high risk people is common knowledge. How/why would that be any different for say the cold or flu? 
What is 'new' information (not really) is the way death has been disseminated. In a nutshell, anyone who was diagnosed with C-19 and died, regardless of pre-existing conditions or actual COD such as heart attack, cancer, hell even an auto accident, have been identified as a C-19 death. Now explain how that is accurate reporting? 
'Good lord'. Just take the time to research the facts. Why don't you go straight to the source instead of going half way around the world with indirect sources? But if it feels good, knock yourself out. Just know that misinformation will be debunked.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Steve said:


> The information about high risk individuals has been common knowledge since the very beginning of the pandemic.  Literally nothing new.
> 
> The specific talking points you're regurgitating without any critical thought are the conspiracy du jour.
> 
> ...


Okay I guess? You are correct; The information about high risk people is common knowledge. How/why would that be any different for say the cold or flu? 
What is 'new' information (not really) is the way death has been disseminated. In a nutshell, anyone who was diagnosed with C-19 and died, regardless of pre-existing conditions or actual COD such as heart attack, cancer, hell even an auto accident, have been identified as a C-19 death. Now explain how that is accurate reporting? 
'Good lord'. Just take the time to research the facts. Why don't you go straight to the source instead of going half way around the world with indirect sources? But if it feels good, knock yourself out. Just know that misinformation will be debunked. 
We are having a hell of a storm right now so I hope this goes out.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

Steve said:


> Okay. The site is trolling me at this point.


This happened to you in another thread - I cleaned up 5 duplicates in one of the threads. Apparently, the site thinks you're being too quiet.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay I guess? You are correct; The information about high risk people is common knowledge. How/why would that be any different for say the cold or flu?
> What is 'new' information (not really) is the way death has been disseminated. In a nutshell, anyone who was diagnosed with C-19 and died, regardless of pre-existing conditions or actual COD such as heart attack, cancer, hell even an auto accident, have been identified as a C-19 death. Now explain how that is accurate reporting?
> 'Good lord'. Just take the time to research the facts. Why don't you go straight to the source instead of going half way around the world with indirect sources? But if it feels good, knock yourself out. Just know that misinformation will be debunked.


There's a doctor who explains this well. On a death certificate, there's the cause of death and the things that kill someone. A car crash is never the thing that they die from - it's internal hemmorhage, heart failure, etc. Same goes with COVID. If they die from something that would not have killed them at that time without COVID, then COVID is ruled to be the cause of death. So if someone with asthma dies because COVID makes their asthma deadly, COVID is the cause of that death. This is the same process as is used in cancer deaths (cancer is never the thing that finally kills them - it's some failure caused by the cancer), so is nothing unusual.

I'd be more than a little surprised if there were incidents of accidental death (like car accidents) being labeld COVID. I'd have to see actual evidence to believe that's happening.


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> This happened to you in another thread - I cleaned up 5 duplicates in one of the threads. Apparently, the site thinks you're being too quiet.


Thank you for cleaning up the mess.


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay I guess? You are correct; The information about high risk people is common knowledge. How/why would that be any different for say the cold or flu?
> What is 'new' information (not really) is the way death has been disseminated. In a nutshell, anyone who was diagnosed with C-19 and died, regardless of pre-existing conditions or actual COD such as heart attack, cancer, hell even an auto accident, have been identified as a C-19 death. Now explain how that is accurate reporting?
> 'Good lord'. Just take the time to research the facts. Why don't you go straight to the source instead of going half way around the world with indirect sources? But if it feels good, knock yourself out. Just know that misinformation will be debunked.
> We are having a hell of a storm right now so I hope this goes out.


You literally lied about seeing your propaganda on CNN and CNBC to attempt to legitimize the misinformation.  This is as much about your credibility and integrity as anything else, at this point.


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## Callen (Sep 1, 2020)

Oh my, perhaps we should save the COVID politics for another forum... Wing Chun related stuff only yeah?


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## Poppity (Sep 2, 2020)

Well, here I was getting all excited about a lot of activity... Well that's disappointing.

I appreciate that maybe your community and family may have not seen covid deaths yet, so it all feels like a hoax or whatever. That's fine. Everyone is entitled to their individual beliefs.

My dad, who was not a great guy, died from covid, he was 68 and his co-morbidity was a minor heart attack in his 40s. Two neighbours down our road have died and they were admittedly elderly. 

Can people just give a bit of a think that when propounding their political view, some people may have lost family members and people they know.

 Other than that I don't care about your individual view on covid, whatever it is, your entitled to it but please put it somewhere else.

There is no reason to go all dumb leftists or sheeple rightists.... A fellow dad from the USA over here for work took his kid to the same school as mine and I got to know him.

He was a Trump supporting,Anti vaxxer, Roman catholic with
Anti abortion views... This is the opposite to my stance on all of those issues. But you know what he was an alright guy, we got to know each other and had a good laugh and enjoyed hanging out before he moved back.

You don't have to judge a person solely on their political view, they are entitled to it.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2020)

Steve said:


> You literally lied about seeing your propaganda on CNN and CNBC to attempt to legitimize the misinformation.  This is as much about your credibility and integrity as anything else, at this point.


My gosh. You are willing to say anything. I did not lie and it is an offense that you would make that claim. It is not propaganda any more than the crap you are spinning.
As far as credibility and integrity, I fully agree. It is far past the point we start seeing some from All our media sources. I am sick and tired of opinion pieces with no backing.


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## Steve (Sep 2, 2020)

Snark said:


> You don't have to judge a person solely on their political view, they are entitled to it.


In normal times, I agree completely, but 2020 is anything but normal.  I'll move this over to another thread.


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## KOKarate (Sep 26, 2020)

Starting a school is never easy and very rarely a lucrative deal. I started mine about 10 years ago because I used to be an assistant instructor at a club when I was a third dan and this other guy was a begginer. Anyway years later we’d both left the school for different reasons (no bad feelings from anyone I just moved on as for him he got busy with work) anyway bumped into him years later he asked if I was teaching I said no because I wasn’t active in karate at the time he asked if I could teach him a bit. I said sure because I had nothing better to do so I trained him outside twice a week for months I didn’t charge because frankly I didn’t see the point as I wasn’t paying for anything and any money he’d give wouldn’t do much for me anyway so I figured why bother. Eventually he asked if I could teach his daughter I said sure did that. Winter came around he suggested we rent out a hall. I found one and decided I may as well see if I can get some people in to help with the rent. I can say with certainty I have made no profit from teaching and sometimes I’m lucky to break even but I got a good real job that pays well as does my wife and my kids have moved out so I can afford it. But it’s not an easy job


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There's a doctor who explains this well. On a death certificate, there's the cause of death and the things that kill someone. A car crash is never the thing that they die from - it's internal hemmorhage, heart failure, etc. Same goes with COVID. If they die from something that would not have killed them at that time without COVID, then COVID is ruled to be the cause of death. So if someone with asthma dies because COVID makes their asthma deadly, COVID is the cause of that death. This is the same process as is used in cancer deaths (cancer is never the thing that finally kills them - it's some failure caused by the cancer), so is nothing unusual.
> 
> I'd be more than a little surprised if there were incidents of accidental death (like car accidents) being labeld COVID. I'd have to see actual evidence to believe that's happening.


I'm glad you said this.  I'm not sure why this is so difficult for many people to understand. Asking a simple question could clear it up.  "Would the person had died, today, if they didn't have Covid?" if the answer is no, then it's clear that Covid-19 is the deciding factor here.  It's the only factor that has changed.  If a person has lived 40 years with Asthma and was never in a situation of dying from Asthma then what changed?  Being infected with Covid-19 is the new factor that made things worse.  If people didn't have Covid-19 then things would have gotten worse, in the manner that it did.

I know this will open a can of worms, but for me it's like saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people."  Replace a gun with a nerf sword and we couldn't produce the same results, even if we were trying to kill someone in self-defense.  Which is why we fight wards with things that kill and not with nerf swords.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2020)

KOKarate said:


> I can say with certainty I have made no profit from teaching and sometimes I’m lucky to break even but I got a good real job that pays well as does my wife and my kids have moved out so I can afford it. But it’s not an easy job


Martial artists often don't make the best business person.  For example, I would teach a martial arts  system to someone who didn't have enough money to pay for class. That's a horrible decision if you are trying to make money.  If I wanted to make a lot of money with martial arts then I would rather have someone else run the business other than me.  When I taught martial arts, the school made profit.  I had plans ready to make more profit, but that rubbed the other instructor the wrong way.

The instructor that I partnered with believed that he shouldn't have "chase after students" by doing call backs and follow ups.  He felt that if someone really wanted to take Jow Ga Kung fu, then they would show up on on their knees begging.   For me I was happy to call people back and follow up.  If you email me asking about the school, I would contact you next day and share with you some of the things that went on in the class that day.  I would try to give you a sense of how students are treated even though you aren't officially a student yet.   The other instructor didn't like that at all.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> Martial artists often don't make the best business person.  For example, I would teach a martial arts  system to someone who didn't have enough money to pay for class. That's a horrible decision if you are trying to make money.  If I wanted to make a lot of money with martial arts then I would rather have someone else run the business other than me.  When I taught martial arts, the school made profit.  I had plans ready to make more profit, but that rubbed the other instructor the wrong way.
> 
> The instructor that I partnered with believed that he shouldn't have "chase after students" by doing call backs and follow ups.  He felt that if someone really wanted to take Jow Ga Kung fu, then they would show up on on their knees begging.   For me I was happy to call people back and follow up.  If you email me asking about the school, I would contact you next day and share with you some of the things that went on in the class that day.  I would try to give you a sense of how students are treated even though you aren't officially a student yet.   The other instructor didn't like that at all.


Interesting.  What you describe is very very basic courtesy.  It isn’t even marketing.  I cannot fathom why someone could object to that.


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## geezer (Sep 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting.  What you describe is very very basic courtesy.  It isn’t even marketing.  I cannot fathom why someone could object to that.



Old school Chinese thinking. The student seeks out the instructor. For the instructor to chase the student would be undignified. 

....on the other hand, if his students pimped his school to the masses, He could scold them (wink,wink) and save face while still marketing his school. I think that's the compromise I've seen with some of the older Chinese instructors.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2020)

geezer said:


> Old school Chinese thinking. The student seeks out the instructor. For the instructor to chase the student would be undignified.
> 
> ....on the other hand, if his students pimped his school to the masses, He could scold them (wink,wink) and save face while still marketing his school. I think that's the compromise I've seen with some of the older Chinese instructors.


Ok, but not returning a telephone call or an email, where someone asked for information?  That is just shooting yourself in the foot, if you actually want to teach.  If you don’t care, and you view having students as an unwelcome obligation, then it’s a viable strategy.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Interesting.  What you describe is very very basic courtesy.  It isn’t even marketing.  I cannot fathom why someone could object to that.


You'll be surprised at how many people get that wrong.  Sometimes that authority as an instructor or a teacher goes to people's head.  Then that's when their warped sense of how people should come to you and not the other way around.  I was gearing the school up to become a big part of the community by doing volunteer work for the community.  The goal was to build a strong relationship with the community so that the community would feel good about supporting the school through membership.  Real simple, be a value to the community and we'll always have a home.   He didn't like that either., but I've known other people who didn't see the value of it as well. 

I got the school in a position where we could offer Kung Fu classes through the country Recreation Department.  The county would do all of the advertising and would send Kung Fu fliers to all of county's schools.  Basically, all we had to do is provide the information and then show up to teach.  The owner of the kung fu school was late getting the information to Recreation Department which meant the advertising for us went out late.  Then no one signed up, so the owner of the school decided to cancel the class without letting me know (I'm the one who got the Recreation Department interested in our school).  So on the last day for registration, people started to call in because they wanted to take the class.  Had he just seen it through for better or worse, he would have gotten 10 students at the last minute.    But more important.  Recreation Departments don't want to work with anyone who doesn't see things through.  If you offer something then you show up even if no one else does.  This shows them that you are reliable and are willing to stick it out even with things don't look as if they will turn out great.  Because he "quit" and didn't see it through.  It got the school black listed for the County.

Again. Great kung fu teacher, but horrible business sense.  I hope they forget my face and name in the future so I can try to rebuild that bridge.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, but not returning a telephone call or an email, where someone asked for information?  That is just shooting yourself in the foot, if you actually want to teach.  If you don’t care, and you view having students as an unwelcome obligation, then it’s a viable strategy.


The other instructor was just like that.  His words.  "If they don't show up at the school, then they aren't serious, so I'm not going to reach back out to them."   He also didn't like when I got the return calls, where they wanted to speak with me.   The only reason I got the return calls is because I responded to their emails lol.  Every email that I got he also got, every email that I sent, was also sent to  him.  He wanted a personal call from people who wanted to learn.  Then after the call, he felt that the person should come to the school and not that the instructor should invite them.

90% of the new students that join the school was because my wife an I did outreach.  Oh and the sparring videos on the website helped as well.  They weren't looking for professional fighter skills.  They wanted a school that actually spent time doing sparring that that doesn't look like the point sparring that is was so popular before MMA started whooping up on "Kung Fu Masters".


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## Poppity (Sep 27, 2020)

Thank you everyone for your insights and explanations. I think it's clear that this a going to be a bit of a non profit venture, but it will be doing something I enjoy and can afford so that will be cool.

Out of all ma, wing chun seems to be a hard sell at the moment.


There seems to be a lot of passionate hate towards wing chun, mainly because people go in with unrealistic expectations they'll learn to beat 10 karate guys without taking a single hit.

 I am hoping my school might help dispel some of the myths that unmodified wing chun is too deadly for sports (which is why all the people die doing chi sau) or that it is not effective against an MMA fighter (because anyone who has walked through an MMA gym is a world class fighter).

I would like to help reaffirm it's an
effective and broad fighting system.


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## dvcochran (Sep 27, 2020)

Snark said:


> Thank you everyone for your insights and explanations. I think it's clear that this a going to be a bit of a non profit venture, but it will be doing something I enjoy and can afford so that will be cool.
> 
> Out of all ma, wing chun seems to be a hard sell at the moment.
> 
> ...



Brother, with that attitude I think you are going to do great. All my best with your venture.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 27, 2020)

Snark said:


> There seems to be a lot of passionate hate towards wing chun, mainly because people go in with unrealistic expectations they'll learn to beat 10 karate guys without taking a single hit.


I think you'll be fine as long as you are honest with your potential students.  Don't oversell it by making it more than what it is.  Keep it down to earth and be honest, and let them know that Movie Kung Fu is not the same a real Kung Fu.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 27, 2020)

Snark said:


> I am hoping my school might help dispel some of the myths that unmodified wing chun is too deadly for sports (which is why all the people die doing chi sau) or that it is not effective against an MMA fighter (because anyone who has walked through an MMA gym is a world class fighter).


I think this is a worthy goal.   I know I'm probably bias because I have a similar goal with Jow Ga.  For me, the goal helps me keep focus on the important stuff and not to get wrapped up in a lot of the performance or martial arts for health markets.


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## JKDJade (Sep 27, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Could you meet with small groups in a nearby park where you could have proper distancing between people and not pay rent? Build a body of students that way in an outdoor situation where it is safer.



 This is probably your best bet at the moment.


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## hunschuld (Oct 2, 2020)

I admire anyone that can teach for a living. When I taught I did it in my garage at home. 

To make it profitable You need a well equipped location, teach afternoon children's classes and offer private and semi private lessons for business people and other arts unless you are teaching BJJ/MMA those schools do well on their own. Morning classes and kick boxing style workout class should also be included. If I were to open a school I would do a wing chun kickboxing workout class using simple movements


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## Poppity (Oct 4, 2020)

hunschuld said:


> I admire anyone that can teach for a living. When I taught I did it in my garage at home.
> 
> To make it profitable You need a well equipped location, teach afternoon children's classes and offer private and semi private lessons for business people and other arts unless you are teaching BJJ/MMA those schools do well on their own. Morning classes and kick boxing style workout class should also be included. If I were to open a school I would do a wing chun kickboxing workout class using simple movements



Thank you so much for the advice. Still in the process of drawing up the business plan and potential marketing avenues.

 It's funny the swells and wanes of fashions in the martial world, in the 60s karate, 70s Kung Fu, 80s ninjitsu, 90s kick boxing in the 2000s bjj and from 2010 the nebulous term MMA.

Pretty daft to be opening a non fashionable school but hey, better to have tried and something, something.. cheers though.


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