# Gun Disarm, Pistol Front



## lonewolf12563

Hi, many of the techniques taught today invlove grabbing the gun hand, deflecting the gun and doing a wrist twist for the disarm. In my opinion this is a dangerous technique.
First the probability of you grabbing someones hand under high threat, real situation is very low. Second by grabbing the hand or attempting to, you are not effectively controling the field of fire nor the attackers body.
In the technique of the month on my web site I show a better method of controling the gun, field of fire and the attackers body. Check it out. Thanks Ed
www.lonewolfjujutsu.com


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## Michael Billings

When dealing with a gun, most Kenpo techniques involve redirecting the weapon, not the hand , as you get off line.  If you deflect the wrist from the inside or outside, the wrist acts as a fulcrum and the weapon actually points toward the side where the wrist is struck.  Try it.  

 Deflecting the weapon on the other hand, then seize (secure) the weapon, followed by controlling the wrist & weapon, prior to the disarm.  Just a little different paradigm than hitting the wrist .. and a lot safer.

 -Michael


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## Gary Crawford

I teach this a little different.Tell my your thoughts on this.I teach grab the gun at the top(to prevent the gun from fireing) at the same time as rotating torso out of line o fire,then stripping it away.I like the rest of your technique though.


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## Cthulhu

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> I teach this a little different.Tell my your thoughts on this.I teach grab the gun at the top(to prevent the gun from fireing) at the same time as rotating torso out of line o fire,then stripping it away.I like the rest of your technique though.




Can you clarify how grabbing the gun at the top would prevent the gun from firing?

Cthulhu


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## Thesemindz

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> Can you clarify how grabbing the gun at the top would prevent the gun from firing?
> 
> Cthulhu



I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure he means grabbing the slide, on a semi-auto, to keep it from moving. I'm not sure this would keep it from firing, but it should keep it from firing twice. The slide will jam on the way back and fail to chamber a second round. The only way to return it to normal function then would be to manually eject the jammed cartridge and chamber another round. I think you'd probably get your hand chopped up doing this, but at least you'll only get shot once, not twice.  


-Rob


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## Mark L

Don't grab the wrist or hand, grab the weapon.  The primary technique we use is similar to what Gary wrote.  Get skinny and grab the weapon, this controls field of fire and is, in my opinion, a superior first move.  If I have my hand wrapped around the barrel of the gun I have the advantage over the attacker in that I have better leverage in determining where the gun is pointing.  I can use my arm, shoulder, and torso muscles to redirect while the attacker is trying to maintain his aim with grip strength.  Try it.

The web site photos, to me, expose the victim to the likelihood of having the attacker switch the weapon to the other hand.  Photo 2 has the defender locking up the attack pretty well, but not controlling the weapon or the other hand.  What's to prevent the BG from switching hands?  We practice this stuff alot and if you don't grab the gun you have not established control of the situation, you'll end up wrestling an arm while there's a gun out there ...


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## lonewolf12563

Switching hand usually does not come it to play in real life or death situations. Ex-sample. Ever tried to take a pop from a kid...they counter by grabbing with both hands and the tug of war begins. Granted we are not kids but our brains work the same way under high stress.
Grabbing the gun from the top, which I have seen the Isrealis teach will not prevent the first round from going off. Every tried to grab a thin metal object by slapping and grabbing. 50% chance that it would fail. Porr odds. That is why I belive moving into the attacker is better. Control his body you control the gun. Ed


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## Mark L

Lonewolf,

Nope, never tried that.  I'm refering to my experiences in the dojo, playing with folks that have a decided slant towards both strategic and tactical thinking.  I recognize it is a sanitzed environment, but one where we are there to practice confrontation.  I appreciate your point, I'll seek out opportunities to explore your ideas.


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## Tgace

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13118

The first post on this thread has some related firearms stuff that is relavent to this discussion.


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## 8253

I believe all Kenpo gun techniques involve stepping out of the line of fire and as simultainiously as possible redirecting the firearm.  By the way grabbing a gun on the top will not keep it from firing.  If you grab a semi-auto or an automatic pistol and do not have a good grip on it if it fires the slide may come back and tear your hand up.  I believe it is better to grab the wrist with which ever hand is on the outside step and then using the other to chop the barrel out to the other side.  Then twist the wrist so that the barrel points up and pull it towards you.  That should effectively break the wrist and make it easier for you to get the weapon away from the attacker.  However it is always better to give them what they want in the first place.  These are risky techniques and i would only try to use them if i believed i didnt have a choice otherwise.


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## KenpoTex

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> I'm not positive, but I'm pretty sure he means grabbing the slide, on a semi-auto, to keep it from moving. I'm not sure this would keep it from firing, but it should keep it from firing twice. The slide will jam on the way back and fail to chamber a second round.


  As Tgace mentioned in the post he linked, this is correct.  You can also prevent a semi-auto from firing by moving the slide slightly out of battery, in other words, pushing it back just slightly so that it's not locked-up.  I remember reading somewhere that this is something the S.A.S. teaches their guys.
  As far as disarming techniques, I think it would be most advatageous to control the gun in order to keep the muzzle pointed away from your body.  Of course the other guy is going to be doing just the opposite.  I just hope I never end up in this position in the first place


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## MJS

kenpotex said:
			
		

> As Tgace mentioned in the post he linked, this is correct.  You can also prevent a semi-auto from firing by moving the slide slightly out of battery, in other words, pushing it back just slightly so that it's not locked-up.  I remember reading somewhere that this is something the S.A.S. teaches their guys.
> As far as disarming techniques, I think it would be most advatageous to control the gun in order to keep the muzzle pointed away from your body.  Of course the other guy is going to be doing just the opposite.  I just hope I never end up in this position in the first place



This is the same idea that Krav Maga uses for their disarms.  

Mike


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## Disco

I have noticed that with all the posts and even the pictures, that nobody has mentioned the use of stikes in conjunction with the disarm. Grab the wrist, grab the weapon, whatever your personal preference may be. A  simultaneous strike, again whatever your preference may be, certainly makes the disarm a lot easier.

One thing I would suggest in your training is use a real weapon. Not one that is functioal but has been fixed for training. The slide works but you can't load any ammo. They even have training weapons (I think it was mentioned somewhere on MT), that actually fire very low blanks of somekind. They will not hurt you. See what happens when you use whatever your technique you use against the real thing. You just may be very surprised and keep a first aid kit handy.


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## MJS

Disco said:
			
		

> I have noticed that with all the posts and even the pictures, that nobody has mentioned the use of stikes in conjunction with the disarm. Grab the wrist, grab the weapon, whatever your personal preference may be. A  simultaneous strike, again whatever your preference may be, certainly makes the disarm a lot easier.



Again, the same principle as KM.  



> One thing I would suggest in your training is use a real weapon. Not one that is functioal but has been fixed for training. The slide works but you can't load any ammo. They even have training weapons (I think it was mentioned somewhere on MT), that actually fire very low blanks of somekind. They will not hurt you. See what happens when you use whatever your technique you use against the real thing. You just may be very surprised and keep a first aid kit handy.



Good point.  Something that feels the same as a real weapon, as well as performing in a similar fashion is going to be a big plus.  The same can be said for a knife.  Applying something on the tip, sides of the kinife will leave a mark, thereby making your training that much more realistic!

Mike


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## bluenosekenpo

Disco said:
			
		

> I have noticed that with all the posts and even the pictures, that nobody has mentioned the use of stikes in conjunction with the disarm. Grab the wrist, grab the weapon, whatever your personal preference may be. A  simultaneous strike, again whatever your preference may be, certainly makes the disarm a lot easier.
> 
> One thing I would suggest in your training is use a real weapon. Not one that is functioal but has been fixed for training. The slide works but you can't load any ammo. They even have training weapons (I think it was mentioned somewhere on MT), that actually fire very low blanks of somekind. They will not hurt you. See what happens when you use whatever your technique you use against the real thing. You just may be very surprised and keep a first aid kit handy.



Exactly, why must everything end up on the ground? Doesn't he have friends? What if you don't have a clean lock on the weapon or arm, do you really want to roll around on the ground with a bad guy and a gun? In krav maga, you redirect the weapon, move your body out of the line of fire, and close the distance, punch or elbow, control and remove the gun. Then get out of range. Alot easier to do while standing!

Sounds like I'm opening the strike vs grapple can of worms, not my intention, i have a lot of respect for grappling arts, it's just a good grappler should know when *not  * to take it to the ground, I'd suggest this might be one such time.

So,

Lefthand grabs gun, pushing it to your right, left foot steps to 11 o'clock as right hand comes up for punch to throat or eye strike, then right hand slides down to lever gun away from bad guy, get away. Elbows,knees and kicks can be used at any opportunity so long as weapon control is not relinquished. Just my opinion, but make it fast and brutal, then again I'm a newbie, so I could be full of it. Again no disrespect to the grapplers. :asian:


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## psi_radar

I'm not a strong believer in all the Kenpo weapons techniques, but I do like the one for this attack, Twisted Rod. 

So first of all, if a perp is stupid enough to get within striking range with a pistol, it wouldn't be too hard to get off the line IF you're fast enough. I'm much less afraid of guns at this range than knives (1 pound of poop vs. 2) since really only the very tip of the thing is dangerous, and if you can keep the muzzle pointed away from you, you're actually in pretty good shape, except for your ears from the report.  

The way I do Twisted Rod is (prefix--create a distraction, ex. say something confusing like "your sister does indeed like lima beans," to buy a quarter-second, then a) get off the line while closing the gap b) check the gun hand with your right hand c) throw the figure-4 lock on with the left and right, then shift hips to really engage the lock and unbalance the BG.

That's the first couple, most important moves, and with practice they can be launched faster than the perp can pull the trigger. The way the lock is applied results in the muzzle pointing at the BG's face, secured with your palm over the back of his hand.

Grabbing the barrel of a automatic first rather than the hand to keep it from discharging or hoping that it would stovepipe a round in the ejection port IMHO is probably not a good idea. First of all, most modern automatics don't have very long barrels. My 1911 does, but it's one of the few. So you run the risk of getting a digit shot off, and losing control of the weapon because it's slippery now. After you get control of the hand and muzzle direction, then you can slide your hand onto the barrel since he won't want the gun to go off when it's pointed at the center of his face. 
Secondly, I really doubt that I could hang onto the barrel of a high-powered automatic when it was discharging. There's a strong recoil, plus I'd get burned, which typically makes me flinch away, and again I've lost control of the gun.  

Lonewolf, I liked the last part of posted technique with the armbar, but as I think someone here mentioned, the first part of the technique still allows a fair amount of articulation with the wrist/gun.


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## MJS

bluenosekenpo said:
			
		

> Exactly, why must everything end up on the ground? Doesn't he have friends? What if you don't have a clean lock on the weapon or arm, do you really want to roll around on the ground with a bad guy and a gun? In krav maga, you redirect the weapon, move your body out of the line of fire, and close the distance, punch or elbow, control and remove the gun. Then get out of range. Alot easier to do while standing!



Who is talking about the ground here?? Did I miss something???  Are you referring to the tech. that was shown on the web site??



> Sounds like I'm opening the strike vs grapple can of worms, not my intention, i have a lot of respect for grappling arts, it's just a good grappler should know when *not  * to take it to the ground, I'd suggest this might be one such time.



I agree!!  I dont think its wise to roll on the ground when dealing with a weapon.




> So,
> 
> Lefthand grabs gun, pushing it to your right, left foot steps to 11 o'clock as right hand comes up for punch to throat or eye strike, then right hand slides down to lever gun away from bad guy, get away. Elbows,knees and kicks can be used at any opportunity so long as weapon control is not relinquished. Just my opinion, but make it fast and brutal, then again I'm a newbie, so I could be full of it. Again no disrespect to the grapplers. :asian:



Good point.  

Mike


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## psi_radar

Mike, the last part of the technique as shown involved an armbar taken to the ground.


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## MJS

psi_radar said:
			
		

> Mike, the last part of the technique as shown involved an armbar taken to the ground.



Yeah, I thought my post would make some confusion!!  I got a little confused myself because I didnt see anything about the ground in Discos post.  I figured that the armbar was what he was talking about there.

Mike


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## MJS

As for the tech. in question.....Personally, I'd rather do a counterstrike as you're doing the redirection.  By not doing so, theres a good chance that the attacker is going to have time to react to what you're doing.  Give him something else to think about while you're doing the disarm.

Mike


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## psi_radar

MJS said:
			
		

> As for the tech. in question.....Personally, I'd rather do a counterstrike as you're doing the redirection.  By not doing so, theres a good chance that the attacker is going to have time to react to what you're doing.  Give him something else to think about while you're doing the disarm.
> 
> Mike



A right FTS to the lower shin at step 2 would be nice, followed by a snapping heel kick to the face while securing the arm bar should keep him thinking. 

What were you thinking of?


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## MJS

psi_radar said:
			
		

> A right FTS to the lower shin at step 2 would be nice, followed by a snapping heel kick to the face while securing the arm bar should keep him thinking.
> 
> What were you thinking of?



If you'll notice in KM, as they are redirecting the gun, they are also going forward with a hit to the face.   

I was thinking of doing that 'distraction' ASAP, so it takes his mind off of what you're trying to do and makes him think about the hit he just took.  I use the same idea when teaching wrist grab defenses.  If a much larger person is grabbing you, strength may play a part.  Therefore, if you're standing there, trying to do that armbar defense, the bad guy is gonna be standing there laughing and pounding you.  Start off with a kick to the shin to take his mind off of your arm and onto his leg.  Its that split second distraction that just might make a difference.

It looks like we're both on the same page here! :asian: 

Mike


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## kenpo2dabone

I have seen this exact technique used for a defense against a thrusting edged weapon attack or a thrusting blunt weapon attack. I would probably not use it for any of them including tha gun. As an edged weapon defense and a blunt weapon defense I simply don't like ending up on my back on the ground. There is no account for a potential multi attacker scenario. As a gun technique there is no account for inoscent bystanders. Notice that when the attackee moves offline that gun is still pointing straight ahead. If the attacker pulled the trigger as a reaction to the attackees movement then he just shot the attackees wife or child or some stranger who happened to be passing by. The gun needs to be deflected as you move off line and the safest place to deflect the gun with the least potential for a bystander to catch a bullet is up. There is a high probability that if you move in a manner other than what the attacker is expecting or asking (give me your wallet; put up your hands and so forth) then he will pull that trigger. Ya, you got out of the way but who's chest did the bullet land in. 

I appreciate the post. It makes for good discussion and it is definately hard to put ones self out for criticism. I applaude you for that Lonewolf but I would not do this technique, especially against a gun attack. If I get a chance I will try and post some pictures of what we do in the UKF against this type of attack. To put it in words would take all day. However, if I get some time today I will try and write it out as well.

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## lonewolf12563

If by exsample you grab and strike the gun wielder, like krav maga teaches, he will step back, pulling the gun with him. When two people grab and pull with a gun, the gun will center on you. Bang your dead. Ed


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## psi_radar

Strikes could be useful in this situation but you're right, the wrong ones could cause unwanted reaction, such as the BG pulling away after an eye spear when you're trying to stay in tight. 

Which is why I'd be more inclined to do the low shin kick. Painful, and will most likely cause a destabilizing action rather than a withdrawal. I would make sure to have that gun hand secured first, though. 

I think Mike Miller also has a very good point concerning the moral implications of this technique in a public place. The nature of the technique almost insures the firing of a couple rounds at waist to chest height. You might be safe but the others around you may not. Congrats on the technique, though. It does take cajones to post your work for criticism.


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## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> If by exsample you grab and strike the gun wielder, like krav maga teaches, he will step back, pulling the gun with him. When two people grab and pull with a gun, the gun will center on you. Bang your dead. Ed



And if he steps back, you can still follow him.  Keep in mind, that after a few strikes, KM then disarms the gun from the hand.  You can still follow him as he goes back.  In addition, I would tend to think that he's going to be thinking about the strikes hitting his face, not retaining the gun.  

As I said before, I would tend to think that if you did not do something to get his mind off the attempted disarm, that would give him a chance to counter your move.  

Mike


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## Tgace

Pound all you want on the BG and he may not even feel it. Kick him in the grion and he may just laugh at you. While Im not saying go for the gun right away everytime, you better get control of that weapon and soon. Most real life disarms ive seen in dashboard cams, bank footage etc. were gun grabs. Heck most cops that are shot with their own guns are from gun grabs, so it works for the BG's.


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## Cruentus

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Hi, many of the techniques taught today invlove grabbing the gun hand, deflecting the gun and doing a wrist twist for the disarm. In my opinion this is a dangerous technique.
> First the probability of you grabbing someones hand under high threat, real situation is very low. Second by grabbing the hand or attempting to, you are not effectively controling the field of fire nor the attackers body.
> In the technique of the month on my web site I show a better method of controling the gun, field of fire and the attackers body. Check it out. Thanks Ed
> www.lonewolfjujutsu.com



I liked the disarm, and that is one I use.

 :asian:


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## Tgace

Id be willing to bet that if you were in a life and death struggle over a handgun, you may not even notice cuts, burns etc from the thing going off. Heck you may not even notice a finger being shot off or of being shot until your vision starts to blur and your legs get weak...adrenline does funny things like that. Anyway, I like some of Jim Wagners stuff...heres an article of his from

http://www.jimwagnertraining.com/articles/CT_Up_Against_A_Gun.htm



> Up Against A Gun
> 
> Sergeant Jim Wagner​
> 
> 
> Recently I was in London, England training police officers survival tactics in patrol and undercover situations (the course was titled High Risk Patrol Tactics). The interesting thing about the police in the United Kingdom is that they do not carry guns on duty. The average officer is armed with nothing more than a baton and a small can of CS gas. Obviously for those incidents involving suspects with firearms, patrol officers can radio for help and a special police unit, known as a Trojan Team, will come to their aid armed to the teeth. Yet, the majority of the Police Constables (PC) working the streets are unarmed.
> 
> In my class I posed this question to my UK students, Who is trained in the use of firearms? Only 20% of the hands went up. I was surprised that more hands had not shot up. I had expected more, especially in their profession. Instead, the percentage of those untrained in firearms was more consistent to what one would find in a civilian martial arts class on continental Europe or back home in the States.
> 
> I selected two Police Constables and set up a standard training scenario for them. Their objective was to approach me, the suspect, and arrest me. Simple enough.
> 
> As the they walked up to me, and ordered me to stop, I pulled out a replica Smith & Wesson 5904 semi-automatic, magazine fed, air cooled, blow-back, pistol and aimed it at them from 15 feet (4.5 meters) away. They stopped dead in their tracks and I told them in a loud determined voice to put their hands up in the air. I could tell that neither Police Constable had ever had a gun pointed at them before, not even in a training scenario. I had them right where I wanted them. They were too far to attempt a disarm, nor did they even attempt to try one. I ordered them to turn around and face away from me. Often times criminals make their victims turn away from them so they dont have to look them in the eyes. This makes it easier for the criminal to beat or shoot his victims by removing the human element by not looking at them. They did exactly as I told them. Just by merely having a gun in my hand they submitted totally to my demands; like most citizens would. I therefore ordered them to their knees, and then promptly executed both of them. They were notably upset.
> 
> Now, before you criticize the lack of defense on the part of these two Police Constables, let me preface this by saying that most civilian martial artists that I have done this to fare no better. In fact, I have found in my research that the majority of martial artists, when faced with this same combat situation, will actually force the suspect into shooting them even before the suspect intends to do so. The average martial artist feels compelled to attempt a disarm, no matter the distance, based upon their prior training. There are a few reasons for this:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gun disarm techniques are typically taught within grabbing distance (also known as Extreme Close Range) Thus, if an attacker is just beyond this distance students tend to move toward the attacker in order to close the gap. The attacker naturally reacts to this aggression either through _sympathetic reflex_ (accidentally pulling the trigger as a result of being startled and inducing involuntary muscle contraction) or through _self-defense_ (the attacker interprets the advance as a threat).
> Most civilian martial arts programs do not include defensive tactics against guns at Close Quarters Combat (CQB) range (distances from point blank range, usually beyond reach, out to distances found within the interior of buildings or other structures).
> *Looking down the barrel*
> 
> 
> 
> Most people assume that there is nothing they can do if an attacker is holding a gun on them who is beyond disarming reach. Thus, they submit hoping the person will get closer or perhaps decides not shoot them. However, submitting to anyone who is armed leaves you with absolutely no guarantees. My own personal philosophy is _NEVER A HOSTAGE_. The best course of action, if you are not close enough to attempt a disarm, is to immediately turn to the right or the left and run away perpendicular or diagonally to the shooter.
> 
> If you run directly toward the shooter hoping to overpower him, or you run in a straight line away (a retreat), you become what we call a NO VALUE MOVING TARGET. Although you may be moving as fast as you can, in the weapon sights of the suspect you are technically in the same position  youre just either getting larger or smaller in his sight picture (when the front sight and the rear sight of the pistol are lined up on the target). Therefore, all the suspect has to do is take aim once and keep firing in a straight line, in the same direction, increasing the likelihood of a hit or multiple hits.
> 
> On the other hand, if you take off running to your left or right, and keep moving, you become a FULL VALUE MOVING TARGET, which means that the shooter has to keep moving his gun in order to track you. Constant movement means more chances of error. Even most firearms trained personnel, both in law enforcement and the military, have trouble hitting movers. It takes a lot of practice to become proficient at learning to lead (find the aim point in front of the target so the target and the projectile intersect at the same instant), and it is definitely a perishable skill.
> 
> If it is difficult for most professionals to hit lateral moving targets, how much more so is it for civilians. There are very few civilian pistol ranges in the world that have sideways moving targets. Most gun ranges are set up in lanes, designed for shooters to fire at a fixed centerline (NO VALUE MOVING TARGETS). Even most criminals, when practicing their shooting skills in isolated areas, will set up static targets and shoot at them, because it takes a lot of preplanning and reliable equipment to having moving targets.
> 
> If you run from your gun totting attacker diagonally, either to the left or right, you become a HALF VALUE MOVING TARGET. You will still be more difficult to hit, but because you are moving closer to a NO VALUE position, you will also become easier to track. Again, the goal is to prevent the shooter from getting a bead (his gun sights) on you my forcing the weapon to move, which is inherently less stable.
> 
> 
> 
> *Dont believe everything you see*
> 
> 
> 
> As a society weve been conditioned by Hollywood movies in thinking that if we get shot that were going to be instantly incapacitated or die. Even in police briefing rooms across North America there is an ongoing joke that goes like this, A bad guy can get shot multiple times and live, but an officer gets shot only once and dies. Why do they say this? Yes, its true that a few officers have been killed with only on bullet, but many more officers have been shot with one bullet and have survived. Yet, because of a few incidents the majority still buys into the lie, as if it were the norm. Needless to say, what do you think will happen to most officers if they do happen to catch that one bullet? Ill tell you what will happen. Many officers will die because they will have already lost the battle mentally because of a fictitious proverb, and not on the facts.
> 
> The reality is that only 10% of all gunshot wounds are fatal. That means that if you get shot, statistically you have a 90% chance of surviving it. Even if the bad guy is able to hit you as a moving target, the odds are in your favor that it wont be fatal.
> 
> I always tell my students, It will take 100 rounds to take me out. I have to tell myself this to reprogram myself from years of listening to defeatist fellow officers. Whether it is true or not, mental conditioning for combat is everything to insure self-preservation. When I was going through a lengthy sniper course with the 1st Marine Division Scout/Sniper School at Camp Pendleton, California I will never forget the words painted on one of the beams of the classroom that has motivated me to this day. It reads, _Sweat dries, blood clots, bones heal  positive mental attitude._ To me, it says it all.
> 
> 
> 
> *Gun play in the dojo*
> 
> 
> 
> As a martial artist you can incorporate these gun survival tactics in your own training. There are two ways to go about it. First is through DRY FIRE DRILLS, and the second method is through PAINT MARKING PISTOLS.
> 
> To practice escaping a pistol wielding suspect will only require a replica firearm. Since the distance is beyond the ability to disarm, the replica can be made of any material. When confronted by the suspect (the trainer) you will want to run from him when he is speaking to you  giving you orders. If you can make your move mid sentence this will buy you a half second of escape time before the suspect realizes whats going on. At that moment he cant speak and shoot at the same time.
> 
> To use paint marking pistols in your own training will require some expense. Such a pistol is not considered a firearm by the Alcohol Tobacco & Firearms (ATF) agency, and the same holds true in many other countries. At the end of this week Im flying to Argentina to train several police SWAT units (G.O.E.). The organizers asked me if I could bring down some paint pistols. After checking with Argentinean Customs I found out that they also do not consider them firearms.
> 
> A basic weapons system will consist of a paint gun, paint balls, C02 gas cartridges, facemasks, and neck protection. Such a complete system will start at approximately $200 U.S. and climb from there. I recommend getting a pistol that accepts C02 cartridges instead of bottle fed gas systems since you will require less pressure for this type of training, as opposed to systems use for paint ball fields (the sport).
> 
> The purpose of using a paint-marking pistol is to understand the dynamics of what happens in a fire fight, and to actually feel the consequences when moving techniques are performed incorrectly. When the paint balls hit, they sting. In addition, if you have someone firing real projectiles at you, you learn quickly to get behind a solid object (known as cover in military and police speak) for protection once you have fled from the shooter as a FULL VALUE TARGET.
> 
> 
> 
> *A lesson learned*
> 
> 
> 
> Firearms are common tools used by criminals regardless of a countrys laws against them, or many peoples uneasiness around them. Learning how to defend against them is an absolute must for the martial artist.
> 
> The two Police Constables that I executed at the beginning of my High Risk Patrol course didnt make the same mistake twice. Later in the class they immediately adopted the FULL VALUE MOVING TARGET method, and now they would never be caught dead again offering themselves up as targets.


Theres also some interesting conversation on this topic at
http://www.hockscqc.com/discus/messages/6/105.html


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## Bod

I like that move. It is my primary closing move for fighting, though I do it slightly differently.

I approach by brushing the opponent's leading hand (in this case his right) with my left and then catching it with my right. I do this while stepping off and in to about 10'o'clock. This places my right hand on his right wrist. I've found I cannot grab reliably with the first hand but the second hand almost always makes the catch. 

As I am making the catch I am swinging my body around to make contact with the upper arm, my left elbow/forarm is banging into my opponent's neck or head.

Then I step across my opponent's legs, tai-otoshi fashion, but from the outside, and trip or guide to the ground, depending on the justifiable level of force. I've found it possible to throw and remain standing, but going to ground is an option.

I follow this with an optional raking toe-kick to the armpit and then a submission lock, finger break or wrist lock, depending on the justifiable level of force.

I practise this combination primarily as an aggresive response to my opponent's one-hand-foreward stance. The primary move-brush-catch gets me out of the way of the inevitable punch or possible unseen weapon strike from the opponent's backward hand.

If I do not make the wrist catch I move in closing the arm across the body, head-butting, and then throw one way or another. This is dangerous because a concealed/unnoticed knife in the opponent's non-lead hand could stab you.

I have natural follow ups if the opponent resists by bending his arm or running around in a circle away from the initial lock.

I will experiment with turning further into the arm lock and sitting down as the defender is shown doing on the lonewolf website. Why do you do it that way lonewolf? I do the trip because it comes naturally from my judo practise, and allows me to get the attcker on the ground without a full armlock (yes, my armbars aren't my strong point).

Also I cannot see the method for grabbing the arm in the first place, and this is one of the crucial parts. You clearly do your's differently to the way I do mine, as the defender's right palm is holding the inside of the attacker's right wrist. Do you slap and catch into the right, just 'bundle in', or something else? I'm working really hard on getting the initial contact just right, and your input would be appreciated.

Finally I'd like to say the photos are of a great quality, in good light, with the attacker's and defender's shirt colour and skin tone contrasting well. No accident I imagine, when you've also posted a picture of competing judoka in white and controversial blue dogis! But why the camo trousers? They are the bane of photographic clarity, though it is not an issue in these photos.

Cheers for sharing!


----------



## lonewolf12563

Thanks for commenting. As you are familar with judo and waki gatame the inital grab is sort of the same. Except I keep my elbows tight against my body. If you lift your elbows up you will expose light and the attacker will detect the movement faster than  if you keep your elbows tight. My hands come up in a V like kotegeshi. As I move in I push a little against the gun arm and twist for the armbar. Remember to push as you move in. If you pull the gun will center on you. Thanks Ed


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> As I move in I push a little against the gun arm and twist for the armbar. Remember to push as you move in. If you pull the gun will center on you. Thanks Ed



Question for you.  You mention pushing as you move in.  Now in the KM disarm, you are grabbing, striking and moving forward.  You stated that if that is done, the gunman will move back, taking the gun with him.  Can't the same be said regarding your post??  You're still moving in, and unless you make sure that you have the hands secured, the gunman will most likely be trying to move backwards, away from you.

Mike


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## lonewolf12563

That is why I am moving in. I am already ahead of him. Securing the gun arm. In striking you are projecting him away from you with the strike while pulling on the gun. The gun will natually thru leverage center on you. Ed


----------



## MJS

So even though with the KM disarm, they are redirecting it down on an angle, across the opps. body, while moving forward, you're still saying that its going to be able to be pointed at you??

Mike


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## lonewolf12563

Try it. Have someone grab your gun arm. Pull and it will go center mass. Ed


----------



## Tgace

If you grab, dont pull.....twist.


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Try it. Have someone grab your gun arm. Pull and it will go center mass. Ed



All of the Krav disarms that I've seen with the gun in front did not pull.  When they begin the move, they are pushing the gun to the side, down on an angle to the ground.  The opps. hand is going across his body on an angle.  

I think another thing to keep in mind is what the effect/result of a strike to the opp. is going to do.  I dont know about you, but the few times that I've been accidentally poked in the eye, I've immediately brought my hand up to my eye.  At that time, I wasnt thinking about anything else except if my eye was ok.  

The point of this----If during that initial disarm, you did an eye poke, rather than a punch, I would tend to think that he's going to be thinking more about his eye than the gun.

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

Yes, but depending on the severity of the strike he will still be holding the gun and because he just got hit in the face, he will back up pull the gun and centering on you. Ed


----------



## Cruentus

Sorry to interject.

If you know how to "Follow," then strike him as hard as you want. I think that a strike is nessicary in most cases to disarm anyways. If the hand (weapon) attempts to move away from you after the strike, you follow, then it is no longer "away" from you. The arm may not be in the exact position for you to execute the disarm, in which case you abort what you are doing and go to something else (perhaps a different disarm). You shouldn't ever be fixated on one technique anyways, or your doomed from the start.

To prevent a pullback in the first place, "Push-pull." Your "push" is your hit in the face while you are simultaniously holding/pulling the wrist. The nervous system cannot react to too many things at once without extensive training, and most aren't trained to take a full strike to a vital while their arms are being tugged on. They're nervous system will be reacting to the strike and not what you are doing to the weapon hand. This is why striking is important in executing disarms. You take his focus away from the weapon hand so he won't resist you taking it away or locking him up.

My 2 cents. Milage will vary depending on skill level. Some may approach things differently then me, I am just explaining MY approach.

 :asian:


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## lonewolf12563

Right! The strike to the face will cause the attacker to take a step back and to pull is arm back. Guess what the gun will center on you even if you drop him. Lets face it we are not Mike Tyson. Rarely are you going to drop someone with the strikes you discribe the very first time. Now if you hit him in the throat or the vegas nerve you may knock him out right away. But he will still step back. What to you do if he ducks your punch. He then may turn and punch you or grapple with you. Your hand grab technique leaves you in a bad position for recovery if you miss. Ed


----------



## 8253

i still think the best way is to step to the side while sweeping the gun to the opposite side while grabbing the wrist and hand and just giving it a good twist up.  Then when you pull backwards the gun should be pointed upwards.  He should have a hard time trying to get the weapon with that hand considering his wrist should be broke.  It is still always better not to have to come to that and just give them all of your posessions that they want.  If they are going to kill you however, what the heck, you might as well go down fighting.


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Right! The strike to the face will cause the attacker to take a step back and to pull is arm back. Guess what the gun will center on you even if you drop him. Lets face it we are not Mike Tyson. Rarely are you going to drop someone with the strikes you discribe the very first time. Now if you hit him in the throat or the vegas nerve you may knock him out right away. But he will still step back. What to you do if he ducks your punch. He then may turn and punch you or grapple with you. Your hand grab technique leaves you in a bad position for recovery if you miss. Ed



First off, the strikes are not intended to 'drop' the attacker, they are intended to momentarily stun or take his attention away from his initial attack.  The KM disarms usually do a few strikes only and then do the disarm.  I agree with Tulisan on this one.  Being able to follow and move with the attacker is key.  We can sit here all day and go over the "what ifs" and that is why you need to be able to flow from one thing to the other.  If something isnt working, you should have a back up plan.  

And if you think about it, the same can be said for the disarm that you posted.  One thing that I am a huge advocate of is aliveness.  Making sure that its part of your training is key!!!  Now, whats to say that the attacker is going to stand there and let you apply your arm lock to him???  Do you not think that as soon as you start to move in, hes not going to see this and start to pull back himself???  That is the reason why I talk about the strike.....to give him something to think about.  The body is a wonderful machine.  That said, it will do what it has to do to protect itself.  Whats the first thing that everybody does when its icy outside and they start to fall? Tense up and prepare for the fall!  If something is suddenly coming at your face? The normal reaction is to put your hands up.  Have you ever got anything in your eye? Maybe an eyelash or small foreign body such as sand/dirt? I have.  And the first thing I did, was bring my hands up to my eye.  My FMA instructor was doing some techs in his class.  His inst. accidentally poked him in the eye.  What did he do???  Immediately stop what he was doing, and bring his hands to his eye.  All of the above are normal human reactions.

Mike


----------



## Bester

See also: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5659 for a different perspective from the CQC crowd.


----------



## Bod

My answer:

If you must strike for an armbar, and I do, apply your strike to the side and back of the head. Examples of this would be a palm strike to the base of the skull, a chop to the neck, a left hook or an elbow to the side/back of head, I'm aiming for the base of the skull with my elbow, but I usually get the ear. 

The opp. reacts to the side or bends forward, if he ducks, it is also in the same direction, breaking his balance. The important thing is to get the body against the arm following the strike, so I prefer a circular strike (like the elbow) bringing my body in.


----------



## MJS

Bester said:
			
		

> See also: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=5659 for a different perspective from the CQC crowd.



WOW!! WOW!! WOW!!!!  And I thought that we had some harsh folks on this forum!!!DAMN!!!!  Those guys pulled no punches, but the more I read, the more I agreed with what they said.  Considering there are soooooooo many arts out there that teach gun, knife, etc. of course, the students of those arts are going to defend tooth and nail, their techs.  However, to come on a forum and tell people that their methods suck, and that one way is the only way....well that IMO, is not right at all!!!  I did like the close up pic. of the tech. though.  Many good points brought up there as well.  People on that forum did bring up some good points about the control aspect of that tech.  No, seeing as how there is such an issue with control, if you really look at pics. 1 and 2, it does leave room for the attacker to pull out of that grip, as well as throwing a strike of his own.

Very interesting.

Mike


----------



## MJS

And...while we are on the topic of weapons, I thought I'd bring this to the table.  If you look further on that forum, you'll notice a link, still on the same thread as the gun, only this one is a knife tech against a slash.  *VERY* poor to say the least!!!!!  Thinking that you're going to stop a slash with your forearm??? Come on man!!!   That is opening yourself up for the knifer to continue his slash right down your arm!  I also train in the FMA's and there are many others on this forum who do also, and I think that they will agree with me on that one.  There is no control of the weapon at all!  

Mike


----------



## Cruentus

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Right! The strike to the face will cause the attacker to take a step back and to pull is arm back. Guess what the gun will center on you even if you drop him. Lets face it we are not Mike Tyson. Rarely are you going to drop someone with the strikes you discribe the very first time. Now if you hit him in the throat or the vegas nerve you may knock him out right away. But he will still step back. What to you do if he ducks your punch. He then may turn and punch you or grapple with you. Your hand grab technique leaves you in a bad position for recovery if you miss. Ed



Oh I see. This isn't just about sharing a technique (which is an effective technique, btw) and learning and sharing about different methods, it's more about, "My way is better then your way...you way must be wrong." Hey, when we're done with this conversation, maybe we can discuss who we think has the bigger weennie, and how my waggling method is better then yours?

Never mind, save the vasaline for another time, cause' I'm outta this thread.

Have a great day.  :bird:


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## KenpoTess

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

~Tess
-MT Moderator-*


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## Bod

Some of their attacks were fair but, I'm pretty sure the full twist and upper body contact on the opp's upper arm would unbalance the opp.. It's just very hard to have photos taken off balance. I add the trip just to make sure. This has the advantage of lowering my own body.

The opp. certainly cannot hand the weapon to his other hand. At full speed the opp's arm is moving outward, away from his non-weapon hand.

If they are really proposing a kote gaeshi type movement I'd be suspicious. The only reason I'd see this as correct is to defend colleagues behind you, by redirecting the aim upwards. Who cares about a wrestling match in this situation, because your colleagues could also move in.

Such a situation would make an armbar dangerous, because the opponent could be shooting everyone except you. But as a self defence technique or military technique the armbar may indeed be appropriate, since it works against just about any 'one hand forward' attack, _provided_ the opp. is on, or to the right of your center line (opp's right arm forward), or his arm is at an angle that presents his shoulder to you, rather than his chest .

If that sounds complicated then I'll put it this way: Opp has one hand forward and is presenting you even a little of his outside, then the technique can work.

When all is said and done, I do not practice gun defences, so cannot pontificate on the finer points. However if I was training gun disarms as a team (can't think why, given that I'm a database designer in London) I would probably go for shove the arm in the air while my mates bundle in.


----------



## Cruentus

And...fur crying out loud, your not even doing the technique in a way that would be effective (The attacker is still balanced, and the wrist isn't controlled well). 

Sorry. Outta here again. I just needed to disclaimer my original statement of the technique being a good one after further observation.


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## MJS

Keep in mind that there are counters to everything as well.  Anytime you're executing an armbar, wrist lock, etc. you need to make sure that you're doing it right.  The attacker isnt going to just stand there and let you do it.  Thats why, once again, I bring up the point of doing something to get his attn. off of what you're doing!  One possible counter would be to just bend your elbow.  In addition, I'm not crazy about letting this guy get behind me.  Why do I want to start turning my back to him???  I also noticed, and I think some others brought this up as well, but there is nothing being taken into consideration about bystanders.  Do you really want to shoot someone else just to save your own life?? What if that someone was your wife??  

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

Talking about field of fire. Notice the gun in my picture is pointed at 6 o'clock. During the sequence it stays at 6 o'clock. I you use the twist method the gun crosses three o'clock to 12 o'clock. That is a hugh field of fire. Granted it is fast but where is the control. This armbar technique works for two handed gun grips. The twist method does not.
The knife technique show was an upstrike and an elbow shot all about the same time. Again take for granted these are staged photos and there is not one book out there that you can not critic for this position or that. You have to fill in the voids with your experience. An armbar is an armbar. No reinvention here. I just feel I have more control than the typical gun disarms that are presently taught.
I have to thank the folks at budoseek for their hospitaliy..all three of them. I hope this forum is better. Ed


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Talking about field of fire. Notice the gun in my picture is pointed at 6 o'clock. During the sequence it stays at 6 o'clock. I you use the twist method the gun crosses three o'clock to 12 o'clock. That is a hugh field of fire. Granted it is fast but where is the control. This armbar technique works for two handed gun grips. The twist method does not.



I guess where this is going is that there is no re-direction.  What about someone standing behind you??  That is not taken into consideration.  The KM disarm also works for the 2 handed grip.


The knife technique show was an upstrike and an elbow shot all about the same time.[/quote]

Then the elbow and block ALL should have been in the same photo.  Regardless, its crazy to think that that elbow will stop the guys slash.  Do you really want to take that chance?? I know I dont!!!  Through out the entire tech. there is NO control whatsoever.  



> Again take for granted these are staged photos and there is not one book out there that you can not critic for this position or that.



You think so??  And if thats the  case, thats why I dont rely on a book to tech me a disarm.



> You have to fill in the voids with your experience. An armbar is an armbar. No reinvention here. I just feel I have more control than the typical gun disarms that are presently taught.



Like I said...there are many disarms.  To think that one or to say that one is the best....well, I dont think I need to tell you what that does.




> I have to thank the folks at budoseek for their hospitaliy..all three of them. I hope this forum is better. Ed



Well, IMO, and from what I've learned on these forums, you'll get back what you give.  When you pretty much just come out and totally put down EVERYTHING that everybody else does, only to say that your method is the best...well again, I shouldnt have to show you the examples, you should be able to see them yourself.  This forum is very good.  But, you need to keep an openmind.

Just a thought.

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

Control of what ? Do you advocate grabbing the knife hand? Ed


----------



## lonewolf12563

Just to add I will asume that KM means Krav Maga. Krav Maga has the same counter knife entry that I do except they use a vertical punch. They also use alot of kicks to defend the knife which I think just prolongs the event. Their gun disarms are the grab the gun first push away type affair which I do not believe is a very reliable technique. They have alot of strikes with poor grips on the weapon hand. ie underhand forearm pin. Very easy to slip out.Especialy when reacting to geting elbowed in the face as shown. I have trained with Kapap guys and they laugh at the Krav Maga guys. They think they are Tiger Shulmans. 
So each is to own. I belive it is important to first take out the attacker as fast as possible remembering that your strikes will cause him to move in certain ways. Atemi Waza. And controlling a dominate body position is priority. None of which I see in KM. Their techniques just look like head hunting to me. Ed


----------



## bluenosekenpo

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> They also use alot of kicks to defend the knife which I think just prolongs the event. Their gun disarms are the grab the gun first push away type affair which I do not believe is a very reliable technique. They have alot of strikes with poor grips on the weapon hand. ie underhand forearm pin. Very easy to slip out.Especialy when reacting to geting elbowed in the face as shown. I belive it is important to first take out the attacker as fast as possible remembering that your strikes will cause him to move in certain ways. Atemi Waza. And controlling a dominate body position is priority. None of which I see in KM. Their techniques just look like head hunting to me. Ed



 :asian: ok then, the km system has been used in, real life or death, battlefield conditions. yours? 
 :asian: do i agree with all of their techniques? nope. 
 :asian: do i agree with all kenpo or jkd or fma techniques? nope. 
 :asian: skeptacism is a good thing, allowing your style or technique to be scrutinized is beneficial to you and your friends online(that's us by the way). 
 :asian: honest input can only help on your journey. 
 :asian: i believe that _you _ may make this tech work for _you, _ but in my reality, it won't. 
keep posting, just keep an open mind, you may read something that will move you to reconsider a belief that you thought was above reproach.


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Control of what ? Do you advocate grabbing the knife hand? Ed



Ummm..YEAH!!  You need to gain control of the weapon hand ASAP.  If you dont, you're allowing the weapon to continue to move freely, and strike/slash at you.  Its certainly MUCH better than doing an overhead block and thinking that it'll stop the knife atttack!!   

Mike


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Just to add I will asume that KM means Krav Maga. Krav Maga has the same counter knife entry that I do except they use a vertical punch. They also use alot of kicks to defend the knife which I think just prolongs the event. Their gun disarms are the grab the gun first push away type affair which I do not believe is a very reliable technique. They have alot of strikes with poor grips on the weapon hand. ie underhand forearm pin. Very easy to slip out.Especialy when reacting to geting elbowed in the face as shown. I have trained with Kapap guys and they laugh at the Krav Maga guys. They think they are Tiger Shulmans.
> So each is to own. I belive it is important to first take out the attacker as fast as possible remembering that your strikes will cause him to move in certain ways. Atemi Waza. And controlling a dominate body position is priority. None of which I see in KM. Their techniques just look like head hunting to me. Ed



Well, from what I've seen of the KM disarms, they seem good to me.  Yours on the other hand....if you dont see the possibilities of escape, then I dont know what else to tell ya!!!  Try training with a little aliveness pal, and then maybe you'll see what works and what doesnt!  To think that the person is gonna stand there while you attempt that armbar you do, is foolish thinking at it best.  In addition, you're turning your back to the attacker, which IMO, is another foolish thing to do.

As for the knife defenses....The best that I've seen come from the FMA's.  IMO, nobody trains a knife better than the Filipinos!!!  I'm not too impressed with the KM knife defenses.  Have I trained them? Yes.  Am I crazy about them? Yes/No.  

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

This gun disarm was and is taught in the Army. That is where I learned it. So mmm...Yes it is really used in real life. Krav Maga was not. It is the civilian version of military CQC.The Isrealis that I know tell me it is not close to what they learned. KM is karate and judo combined. Two sports. But that is what they said. 
So go a head and grab the knife hand. With one hand I will easily pull it out. Grab the knife hand with two hands and you will eat the fist from the other hand. By Grabbing the knife hand you are doing nothing to shut down the attacker.Which is your primary goal. The stun shot to do a wrist break is tv horse crap in my opinion. 
By the way I was attacked with a screw driver and I used the same upstrike to the radial nerve as in the photos. I knocked the screw driver out of the perps hand. So yes it does work. No difference with a knife. Big mistake to fear the blade and it's supposed slashing power. It is not a sword. Which Kali was primarily invented for. I say again the knife is not a sword. You will survive a slash attack.Stabbing is what kills. So continual striking the attacker untill he shuts down is your best bet. Shut down the attacker he will not be able to use his tool ( Knife ,machette ect). Above reproach?
Thats funny.  MJS I belive your quote on the BJJ street fighting question was "But then again, it does not have to be something fancy to work right!"
A little two faced? Ed


----------



## Bester

Ed,
  You claim your technique is taught in the army. 
Where?  Basic, special seminars? etc?

From what Ive heard of army training, the quality does vary, and that hand-2-hand is not taught the basic grunts. What branch and at what point is this taught?

Individuals who are either currently or previously involved in various branches of the military repeatedly contradicted you on Budoseek.. 

Over there you make wide, blanket statements such as "Yes I have actually disarmed a weapon from someone but it wasn't a pistol it was an AK47 in El Salvador.", "By the way Taekwon do is crap." and more.

Every art, system, style and interpretation has its "watered down" flavor and its "hardcore" flavor. Such blanket statements as yours show little understanding of the arts.

A post over there "http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=48333&postcount=16" summed things up better than I can.

I did however enjoy your claim of being an Army instructor. "I was teaching that course for years in the Army".

I am forced to wonder if you have any real credentials, or are just another wannabe who slapped a bunch of things together, made up a name, scribbled some crayon on some parchment and opened a mcdojo to rook the unsuspecting public.

I challenge you to prove me wrong.

A consensus seems to be that the stuff you teach is from a fantasyland at best, deadly to the user at worst.

Shame on you.

You got banned over there for being a jerk as well as a fraud.  Youre very lucky this board doesnt immediately boot either.  Maybe youll stick around long enough to get an education.

Or, maybe youll take the suggestion of visiting http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/ . I doubt you will though.  People like you rarely go where they would be shown to be wrong by an educated group.  You claimed you made your technique work.  Anyone can get lucky once.  Too many brave men and women paid the price when some wannabe taught them a crap technique.  

Its that old saying if it quacks like a duck

Quack Quack.


I'll stick to studying arts that have been proven consistantly to work in battle, the street and the real world.  Not just in a studio while posing for pretty pictures.


----------



## Bester

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> No difference with a knife. Big mistake to fear the blade and it's supposed slashing power. It is not a sword. Which Kali was primarily invented for. I say again the knife is not a sword. You will survive a slash attack.Stabbing is what kills.



Again, you show your ignorance.  You have no understanding of the Fillipino arts.  A stab can injure and kill.  So can a slash.  (Ever heard the term "evisceration"?) So can blunt force.  Of course, ask most knowlegable FMA and they will tell you that there is no such thing as "Kali" in the PI.

A knife is not a sword, but they share many of the same properties.  Single or dual edge, and a flat.  Edge awareness is a key part of dealing with a blade.  Then again, maybe you saw that vhs tape where the superman does disarms with a wallet and draws the blade across his own gut.  Abs of Steel indeed.

What else works in your world Ed?


----------



## lonewolf12563

It is easy to hide behind a computer and discredit people. I have credentials. Who cares. Do you really need to know? Do you really think that you are going to gut some one with your spyderco or what ever knife you carry train with.? That is a laugh.
So what do you want for proof. My DD214. Or my class numbers for the schools I have been thru in my 17 years of military service. I doubt you personaly would understand what you were reading.
So far this has been another forum of insults and morons. O yeah arm chair quarterbacks. But I admit you are funny. The knife is a sword is hilarious. They are very different indeed. Do you really know what works in the street?
What style do you study? What do you have to offer other than insults?
A duck is a duck especialy when he ***** on your head. Ed


----------



## Rich Parsons

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> It is easy to hide behind a computer and discredit people. I have credentials. Who cares. Do you really need to know? Do you really think that you are going to gut some one with your spyderco or what ever knife you carry train with.? That is a laugh.
> So what do you want for proof. My DD214. Or my class numbers for the schools I have been thru in my 17 years of military service. I doubt you personaly would understand what you were reading.
> So far this has been another forum of insults and morons. O yeah arm chair quarterbacks. But I admit you are funny. The knife is a sword is hilarious. They are very different indeed. Do you really know what works in the street?
> What style do you study? What do you have to offer other than insults?
> A duck is a duck especialy when he ***** on your head. Ed



Lonewolf,

Ever hear the statment that you do not need to stick three feet of metal through a man when a few inches is enough to kill him?

In this way, a knife and sword are similar. You only need a few inches to wound/injur/kill your opponent. The blade weather large or long has the same attributes with the exception of distance and range (* and recover time *)


I personally would like to hear where you have been teaching the Military. My understanding, is that there can be classes at local bases, that are filled with Military men and women, only it is not offical training approved by a specific branch of the military.

So, in general, you made some statements. Some people have asked if you can provide references. Some for of documentation, that what you say is correct. It may be. I do not know. I do not agree with any name calling, yet I would be interested in learning more. So, if you are military connected, I would appreciate a simple education.


 :asian:


----------



## Bester

Ed,
  Your credentials are a joke, you contradict yourself at every turn. Those that found fault in your fantasy at Budoseek were experienced military or LEO.  This forum also has a good deal of both as well.  They are the ones with the real world experience that are disputing your supposed ideas.  I discussed your idea with someone with 20 years military experience earlier.  Their comment was that you were dead.  This was after reviewing your own website. 

As to the street, here are the stats, straight from the DOJ
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/wuvc01.htm


> Definitions of weapons
> 
> Firearms include handguns (pistols, revolvers, derringers)
> and shotguns, rifles, and other firearms (excluding BB and
> pellet guns and air rifles).
> 
> Sharp objects include knives and other sharp edged and/or
> pointed objects (scissors, ice picks, and axes).
> 
> Blunt objects include rocks, clubs, blackjacks, bats, and
> metal pipes.
> 
> Other weapons include ropes, chains, poison, martial arts
> weapons, BB guns, and objects that could not be classified.
> -------------------------------------------
> 
> Firearms
> 
> Between 1993 and 2001 victims were confronted by offenders
> armed with guns in about 27% of robberies, 8% of assaults,
> and 3% of all rapes/sexual assaults.
> 
> On average, each year U.S. residents were victims of crimes
> committed with firearms at a rate of 4 crimes per 1,000
> persons age 12 or older. Of the average 847,000 violent
> victimizations committed with firearms, about 7 out of 8
> were committed with handguns.
> 
> Knives and sharp objects
> 
> Annually during the 9-year period, about 570,000 violent
> victimizations were committed with a knife or other sharp
> object, accounting for 6% of all violent crimes. Thirteen
> percent of robberies, 6% of assaults, and 3% of rapes
> were committed with a knife or other sharp object.
> 
> From 1993 through 2001 crimes involving knives or sharp
> objects were committed at an average annual rate of 3 per
> 1,000 persons age 12 or older. In 85% of these
> victimizations, about 480,000 each year, the weapon was a
> knife. In the remainder, about 88,000 victimizations per
> year, the weapon was another type of sharp object.
> 
> Blunt objects
> 
> Armed with blunt objects such as bats, sticks, rocks,
> clubs, or blackjacks, offenders committed approximately
> 356,000 violent crimes each year from 1993 through 2001.
> 
> Crimes by offenders armed with blunt objects were committed
> at an average annual rate of 2 per 1,000 persons age 12 or
> older.
> 
> Other weapons
> 
> Between 1993 and 2001 about 5% of all violent crimes were
> committed with weapons other than guns, knives, or blunt
> objects. Such weapons include ropes, chains, poison, martial
> arts weapons, BB guns (not considered to be firearms by the
> NCVS), and objects that could not be classified.



The average unplanned confrontation will occur with whatever is handy. Most people do not carry a firearm. 

You have no understanding of the FMA.  Try explaining your uneducated concepts to a few petita folks...I'm sure they would enjoy educating you.   A sword is a long knife.  It has a different center of balance, and a longer range than a knife.  Some techniques work, some don't.  It is the experienced player who will know the difference.

My training?
FMA, JMA and CMA primarily. 10 years worth.

What do I have to offer other than insults?
Just the truth when dealing with dangerous frauds such as yourself.


----------



## Seig

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> It is easy to hide behind a computer and discredit people. I have credentials. Who cares. Do you really need to know? Do you really think that you are going to gut some one with your spyderco or what ever knife you carry train with.? That is a laugh.
> So what do you want for proof. My DD214. Or my class numbers for the schools I have been thru in my 17 years of military service. I doubt you personaly would understand what you were reading.
> So far this has been another forum of insults and morons. O yeah arm chair quarterbacks. But I admit you are funny. The knife is a sword is hilarious. They are very different indeed. Do you really know what works in the street?
> What style do you study? What do you have to offer other than insults?
> A duck is a duck especialy when he ***** on your head. Ed


Ed,
Normally I stay out of these "discussions", but as this one continues to degenerate, I am going to step in.
You said:


			
				lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> It is easy to hide behind a computer and discredit people. I have credentials. Who cares. Do you really need to know? Do you really think that you are going to gut some one with your spyderco or what ever knife you carry train with.? That is a laugh.
> So what do you want for proof. My DD214. Or my class numbers for the schools I have been thru in my 17 years of military service. I doubt you personaly would understand what you were reading.


1.) You have credentials?  What are they?
I am a third degree black in American Kenpo, I am also a first degree in Samurai Jui-Jitsu. I have other belts as well that I do not attribute a lot of importance to. I also train in Pekita Tersia. I served in the military doing law enforcement during Desert Shield/Storm. The self defense taught to the military in 90% of cases is just enough to get you hurt. The knives I carry, I have used to field dress animals, I know what they can do to a human. I do not carry junk like spyderco.
2.) Here you say you served 17 years, yet your website says 





> He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer.



So which was it? This is one reason your credibility is being called into question.
Go ahead and post your DD214, I and many others know exactly what we are looking at.
3.) I looked at your gun disarm, and like many of the people I see "teaching" gun disarms, were I your assailant, you would be dead. Now, I am not saying your gun disarm is BS, maybe the picture is not doing it justice. The way the technique is being photographed is not maintaing positive control of an attacker that size, you are not controlling his height or his width, he still has room to maneuver.
4.) Some of your other statements have some validity, but when you make statements like, 





> Big mistake to fear the blade and it's supposed slashing power.....You will survive a slash attack


 and 





> The stun shot to do a wrist break is tv horse crap in my opinion.


Not only are you letting your temper get the best of you, you are letting ignorance show through. First of all, some knives are stabbing knives, others are designed for slashing. You should not be afraid of a slash across your throat or the side of your neck? Rule #1 Environmental Awareness, be aware of everything. Secondly, have you ever been playfully slapped by an expereinced Pekita Tersia instructor? They can and will break a bone with that slap. I, personally, do not have that kind of slapping power, but I do have enough striking power to break bones.
5.) Have you, personally, been in live situations with people pointing a loaded gun at you or with someone with a knife intent on doing you harm? I have and I can tell you it sucks. I worked as a bouncer in bars for over 10 years, I also drove a cab for three. That does not take into consideration my experiences in the military.
       Now, a few people have told you to lighten up and keep an open mind, you may learn something. We have a lot of very skilled and experienced martial artists on this board. Quite a few of them are military or police. Do not back yourself into a corner you cannot get out of with good grace. We have worked very hard to make this one of the best boards out there, and we are going to continue to make it better. I will deal with Bester, he knows our "Fraud Busting" policy and he is clearly in violation of it. Do not misinterpret that to mean I just called you a fraud, I did not. Sit back, take a deep breath, and try to come across a little less sanctimonious and forcefull and you will be welcome here. We are always open to good discussion and debate.
Mike Seigel
MT Admin


----------



## Seig

Bester said:
			
		

> The average unplanned confrontation will occur with whatever is handy. Most people do not carry a firearm.


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
That depends on where you live, now doesn't it?


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> This gun disarm was and is taught in the Army. That is where I learned it. So mmm...Yes it is really used in real life. Krav Maga was not. It is the civilian version of military CQC.The Isrealis that I know tell me it is not close to what they learned. KM is karate and judo combined. Two sports. But that is what they said.



And your art is nothing more than a sport at best due to your VERY uneducated thinking.  KM is not karate and Judo as you say.  Do some research before you make a crazy statement like that.




> So go a head and grab the knife hand. With one hand I will easily pull it out. Grab the knife hand with two hands and you will eat the fist from the other hand. By Grabbing the knife hand you are doing nothing to shut down the attacker.Which is your primary goal. The stun shot to do a wrist break is tv horse crap in my opinion.



Misunderstanding AGAIN Eddie!!!  Let me explain for you little hot head pal.  In the FMA, we redirect the flow and then counter grab.  By not grabbing as you did in that joke of a knife defense, you WILL get cut.  Try it with a little aliveness and see what happens!!  Funny you should talk about not doing anything to shut the attacker down cuz in your cheesy gun disarm, you are doing nothing to shut him down either.  Yet, you bash KM because that is what I said that they do, and spoke of the importance of it.  Get your story straight Eddie!!! 



> By the way I was attacked with a screw driver and I used the same upstrike to the radial nerve as in the photos. I knocked the screw driver out of the perps hand. So yes it does work. No difference with a knife. Big mistake to fear the blade and it's supposed slashing power. It is not a sword. Which Kali was primarily invented for. I say again the knife is not a sword. You will survive a slash attack.Stabbing is what kills.



Wrong again Eddie!!!  A screwdriver will not cut you like a knife.  Come back from fantasy island pal.  Kali as well as all of the FMA deal with knives, so again, do some research.  A crappy block like you do, will result in a cut.  Even the smallest of cuts will result in blood loss and take a toll on the body. Do some research on the FMA Eddie, and maybe you'll learn something.  A slash WILl take a toll on the body.  More uneducated thinking from the so called "master" of it all!! LOL! 



> So continual striking the attacker untill he shuts down is your best bet. Shut down the attacker he will not be able to use his tool ( Knife ,machette ect). Above reproach?
> Thats funny.  MJS I belive your quote on the BJJ street fighting question was "But then again, it does not have to be something fancy to work right!"
> A little two faced? Ed



And nothing I said was fancy.  I'm talking realistic pal, not fantasy like you!


----------



## MJS

Bester said:
			
		

> Again, you show your ignorance.  You have no understanding of the Fillipino arts.  A stab can injure and kill.  So can a slash.  (Ever heard the term "evisceration"?) So can blunt force.  Of course, ask most knowlegable FMA and they will tell you that there is no such thing as "Kali" in the PI.
> 
> A knife is not a sword, but they share many of the same properties.  Single or dual edge, and a flat.  Edge awareness is a key part of dealing with a blade.  Then again, maybe you saw that vhs tape where the superman does disarms with a wallet and draws the blade across his own gut.  Abs of Steel indeed.
> 
> What else works in your world Ed?



Obviously it goes to show that Eddie is seriously showing signs on a troll!!  Notice how his hot head got him banned from the other forum where he was spouting his garbage!!  

Eddie....take a pill, relax, and try to be just a little open minded to what others have to say.  You come off like you are the know it all, when in reality YOU are not!!!!

Mike


----------



## MJS

Oh and Eddie....I think that it is important to tell us about yourself, seeing that you are such the know it all.  Your profile does NOTHING for you at all, and neither does your web site.  People who constantly say that its not important give the others on here, alot of doubt as to what you're talking about.  

Again, you preach a big game.  IMO, you have a very poot attitude and you seem to get very upset when people question you.  Why is that??  Seems that I'm not the only one on here who is starting to question you. I noticed that Sieg is doing the same thing.   Do you have something to hide Eddie???

Mike


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> It is easy to hide behind a computer and discredit people. I have credentials. Who cares. Do you really need to know? Do you really think that you are going to gut some one with your spyderco or what ever knife you carry train with.? That is a laugh.
> So what do you want for proof. My DD214. Or my class numbers for the schools I have been thru in my 17 years of military service. I doubt you personaly would understand what you were reading.
> So far this has been another forum of insults and morons. O yeah arm chair quarterbacks. But I admit you are funny. The knife is a sword is hilarious. They are very different indeed. Do you really know what works in the street?
> What style do you study? What do you have to offer other than insults?
> A duck is a duck especialy when he ***** on your head. Ed




Eddie...If you're not happy with this forum...its very simple...LEAVE!!!  

I seriously think that you need to back what you say, because you seem to be VERY uneducated when it comes to weapons.

Mike


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Do you really know what works in the street?{/quote]
> Yup, and its nothing that you teach!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What style do you study?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kenpo- 17yrs, 3rd black
> BJJ- 10+ yrs. Blue/Purple level
> Modern Arnis- Brown, 6yrs
> KM- On and off for about a year.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What do you have to offer other than insults?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Well, I was trying to have a good, friendly discussion, until you let your hot head and poor attitude come into the picture.  There are many very good people on this forum, who have alot to offer.  Maybe instead of always bashing people, you can lower yourself a few pegs, and listen to what they say.  You come off like your style or whatever you want to call it, is the end all-be all of SD.  NEWS flash Ed...IT ISNT!!!!
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> So go a head and grab the knife hand. With one hand I will easily pull it out. Grab the knife hand with two hands and you will eat the fist from the other hand. By Grabbing the knife hand you are doing nothing to shut down the attacker.Which is your primary goal. The stun shot to do a wrist break is tv horse crap in my opinion.



And go ahead and grab that gun with 2 hands, turn your back to the armed attacker, and you will most likely have the same happen to you!!!  Listen to what you're saying here Ed.  You're starting to contradict yourself VERY badly.

In addition, the FMA also have limb destructions that are applied during the course of the disarm of the blade.

Again, I suggest a little research on the FMA.  You may learn something

Mike


----------



## MJS

> If you do reasearch I did post my experience to the Army sargent down in florida. Sorry forgot his name.




This quote was taken from another forum in which Ed was a member.  My question is: How do you forget someones name?  That would be like me forgetting the names of my Kenpo inst. who I have trained with over the past 17yrs.

Mike


----------



## MJS

Seig said:
			
		

> 2.) Here you say you served 17 years, yet your website says [/color]
> So which was it? This is one reason your credibility is being called into question.



And then in another post from the other forum he says this:



> I am sure my 20 years of experience really pales in comparison.



Seems to me the numbers are changing.  11,17,20 yrs??????? :idunno: 

Mike


----------



## Disco

Hold on here guy's............ I went to the web site and clicked on to the fitness....... :inlove: 

Hey lonewolf, you really need to increase that section of the site  :wink: 

artyon:


----------



## lonewolf12563

I thougt these forums would be a good idea, but I think they are a joke. Bester initial stated he liked and used the technique. Then he got on the band wagon like everyone else.
It fiqures a bunch of Karate guys can't figure out a simple armbar. It fiqures that you have to train in multiple arts most of which are sports to cover all your senerios.MJS ten years at bjj and you are a blue/purple belt. First of all what is a Blue/purple belt. You have either or. After ten years you should be a black belt. Maybe your techniques are not that good. I didn't know that phillipine arts had a belt system. Just levels. Who is full of crap? You need to do some of your own reaserch. Litchfield the KM founder even stated he took the best from karate and judo to come up with his fighting system.
All you have proven to me is that you are good at slinging mud but know one has talked about leverage, CNS reaction to stimuli or any thing else of scientific value. "Your techniques suck because your pictures suck and you cant pose your uke properly blah blah blah". That is the best that you can do.  But yet anything I brouht up about the weakness in other systems you overlooked and covered it up with your bashing.
I really honestly do not feel I have to prove to some twit over the computer my qualifications. I could say I trained with Leo White in Ft Eustis VA. O Yeah he was the Capt of the US olympic team. Or I could show you my military credentials . Or I could hang for all to see my certificate from the Jujutsu club in Japan. But its in kanji you couldn't read it anyhow. 
All you have demonstrated is that forums like this one are basicaly served for the same group of people. It is like a teenibopper club.
In closing MJS you have no clue about fighting with a weapon or someone really intent on killing you. You have proven this with you statement about the screwdriver. I can kill you much faster with a screwdriver than any of the pocket knives that you carry. You have no clue about blood loss the affects of adrenaline and vital strike points. Just like the early Gracie days when you Kenpo guys came to the classes, you had no clue untill you were getting ***** slapped by Rorion or Royce. Only a few inches is need to kill someone with a knife, someone said that( Rich Parsons). Yeah maybe that is what they teach at your Kali or arnis class, but that is simple untrue. Well ok if I just stood there. You need at less 4 inches to penetrate vital organs of the body that is if you get past the rib gage. Even a slash to the neck is not  always going to drop him to the ground. Ask any city ER Doctor. Stabbing and deep penetration is what kills.
So I find this forum a complete waste of time. There is no friendly discussion here. Just bashing. I bet if we met face to face it would be a different story. Ed


----------



## Rich Parsons

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> Only a few inches is need to kill someone with a knife, someone said that( Rich Parsons). Yeah maybe that is what they teach at your Kali or arnis class, but that is simple untrue. Well ok if I just stood there. You need at less 4 inches to penetrate vital organs of the body that is if you get past the rib gage. Even a slash to the neck is not  always going to drop him to the ground. Ask any city ER Doctor. Stabbing and deep penetration is what kills.
> So I find this forum a complete waste of time. There is no friendly discussion here. Just bashing. I bet if we met face to face it would be a different story. Ed



Ed,

My Comment was not really from the FMA.  I believe I read it in a book about fencing, and that a few inches relatively speaking is sufficient compared to the wgole three feet. therfore 4 inches compared to 36 inches is a few. I apologize for not listing a specific number. 

As to the deep stabs, I have seen first hand people survive deep stabs with 6 to 8 inch blades to rib cage and just below it. Lung Punctured, knicked the heart, etc. What causes the biggest reaction was the slashing of the blade to free it by the knifer, who actualy was the defendant. The blood is what told the person he was in trouble.

His Quote as he grabs his gut and midsection.
" Look! Nothing!, you could not hit me. I am invincible. You are going to die now." Then he moved his hand to his side the catch the wetness. He saw the blood then said the following: " I think I need to go to the hospital."  He walked 40+ feet to his car and got in the passenger side while a friend got into the drivers side and drove him to the hospital.

Personally, I think both the stab and the slash are very good techniques.
 And I never said that stabbing was bad. Only that you were not paying attention to the slashing.

With respect, I still ask for the explanation of your comments, and my education.


----------



## Bester

Ed,
  I never said I liked your stuff.  I said consistently it was crap.

You obviously can't keep your lies straight, and have no real world experience. as in -this- world.  The fantasyland you live in may be another story.  Your crap will get people injured or worse killed.

When that happens, I hope they nail your fraud *** to the wall and hold you criminally liable for your negligence.

I'm done.  


-Al


----------



## MJS

Eddie-  More uneducated thinking from the Master who talks big, but knows nothing.  I'm done with this thread, seeing as how talking to you, is like talking to a child.  As for the BJJ...the ranking goes like this....white, blue, purple, brown and black.  Takes a little longer than your average trad. MA program.  IMO, ranking means nothing, instead, its the knowledge that you have.  Does not matter if you are a 5th degree black belt or 3rd, it does not make you a Superman.  As for me...the BJJ training has been over the course of 10yrs on and off.  Like I said about the rank....I have not tested for ranking in BJJ, but I have covered ALL of the material for those levels. And, just FYI, I am more than confident with my ground skills.  Are you???  I've had the chance to roll with many people and have held my own.  Then again, seeing as how your grappling is so superior, maybe I can leran something from you.

As for the screwdriver...more uneducated thinking on your part.  You can think what you want, I really dont care.  Open your mind, stop talking from your ***, and get some education on the FMA....maybe you'll learn something, then again, most likely you will not!!  You really should train with a skilled FMA student...maybe your blind eyes will be open.

You know, I notice that you STILL have yet to tell us about YOU.  Instead, you talk like the big tough child that you are, and tell us NOTHING about you.  Just another anony*****!!!  Talk about sitting behind the computer and being an armchair QB!!! Ohhh..wait...thats right..you said that I couldnt read your ranking!!! :boing2:  :boing2:   WOW!!! Another feeble excuse to not tell us about you!!! Give me a break!!!  Look whos talking about excuses now Eddie!!!!!  A slash to the neck wont drop someone??  :boing2: Yeah, ooook.  Ed...is that why its important to protect your arms from a knife strike?  By taking a cut/slash, etc, on the inner arm, where all of the veins are, you will be in more danger than on the top of the arm.  Again, Eddie...do some research on the FMA.  And as for ranking..again, do some research.  

As for meeting....I'd be more than happy to.  You're in NY, which is not that far from CT.  If you ever felt the need to come down and do some training, let me know...I'd be happy to have you down to CT.  If you think that my training sucks, and that you can teach me something, then again, take me up on my offer to come to CT.  Let me state, that this is not a threat or a challenge, but an offer to simply train.  I, unlike you, have an open mind, and am always willing to train with people from various arts.  Feel free to PM me and let me know if you'd be interested!  I'd be more than happy to put you up, as well as pay for your expenses, while you were here.

Oh, and I notice that you said that this forum is a waste of time.  Does this mean that you're gonna leave????  We can only hope!!!!

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

Sure I would love to train. E-mail me with the information. We can meet and chat. Do not advertise BJJ unless you are ranked. Other wise you are just MMA. I agree with the inner arm aspect or your coment, but it still will not stop a determined attacker. That is the problem. Those fancy sparing moves that are thaught go right out the window during hi threat. It goes basic my friend. So why train those technique..because it is an art form. I honestly think you freelance in your training and the only degree you might have is your kenpo belt. Ed


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Admin Note*

Thread moved to "Horror Stories" forum due to direction of inquiry.


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Sure I would love to train. E-mail me with the information. We can meet and chat. Do not advertise BJJ unless you are ranked. Other wise you are just MMA. I agree with the inner arm aspect or your coment, but it still will not stop a determined attacker. That is the problem. Those fancy sparing moves that are thaught go right out the window during hi threat. It goes basic my friend. So why train those technique..because it is an art form. I honestly think you freelance in your training and the only degree you might have is your kenpo belt. Ed



First off..Ed, check your PM.  Second, what fancy sparring moves are you talking about??  Third, Im more than confident in my skills.  At least i had the balls to post what I do!!!  Where are your credentials????  I've seen many people asking for them, but you always seem to fail to deliver.  What do you have to hide????

As I've said before, its not the belt around your waist but the knowledge that you have.  I cross train in many arts to improve my skills.  Just because I many not be ranked in them, does not mean that I cannot use a principle or idea to improve myself.  Seems like your closed minded, uneducated statements are shining through again!!! 

As for doing some training..why not.  Shoot me a PM.  Who knows, maybe I can learn something from you.   

Mike


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> I agree with the inner arm aspect or your coment, but it still will not stop a determined attacker.



WHAT?????  Ed, question for you.  On the arm, where are the veins?  Now, I'm probably not as educated as you are on the human body...  ...but in my educated (or uneducated in your eyes) guess, I'd have to say that taking a hit on the inside of the arm compared to the top, is going to be worse.  Again keep in mind, that those little stabs and slashes add up and will take a toll on the body. And just to add on to that..if someone was going to commit suicide by cutting their wrists, they cut the inside, not the top of the arm.  They are not stabbing themselves, they are cutting themselves.

Your "superior" thoughts on this, oh Great Master of all fighting knowledge.  Please share with us more of your wonderful experience.  

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

Yeah they cut vertical not horizontal and it takes awhile. You have no clue. I am done.


----------



## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Yeah they cut vertical not horizontal and it takes awhile. You have no clue. I am done.



LOL!! Ed, Ed, Ed....you always continue to amaze me.  Are you honestly saying that you can predict how you'll be cut with a knife, if you were to be attacked???  I used the cutting of the wrists to prove a point.  The fact of the matter is, is that there are many spots on the body that can be cut and will result in much blood loss.

You also continue to amaze me as to why you can't provide ANY credentials about yourself?  Why is that Ed???  As for not being able to translate your diploma....not a problem.  There are a few Japanese restaurants in the state and I'm sure the workers would not have a problem with that.  Could it be that you, in reality are not what you say, and that you have no dimploma???  Afraid we might find something out about you?  Why the cloak of mystery?? Oh wait..is it that top secret military stuff???    

I also gotta love the fact that I didnt get a response back from you yet?  I sent you an email as well as 2 pvt. messages.  But thats ok...you know what, dont even bother.  You go right ahead and do the training that you want.  I know what I do, and I know what you do, and it certainly is *NOTHING* that I'd be interested in doing!  

Again, no need to respond.  Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall...thick and stubborn!

Mike


----------



## lonewolf12563

Here moron check out this site and read about the difference  between stabs and slashes. It even has pictures. http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/incised_wounds.htm

Ed


----------



## Bob Hubbard

More statistics:
http://www.folders-r-us.org/statistics.htm
http://www.t-mag.com/articles/175knife.html

The average slash may do less -physical- damage than the average stab.  The psychological damage however can be quite different.  First blood may setup the victim for the fatal stab.  

You also must understand the difference between "Knife Fighter" vs. "Fighting With A Knife".  There is a similar difference between a "Gun Fighter" vs "Fighting with a Gun".

You've made many claims.
Back them up, and while you are at it, since you asked others for their credentials and pissed all over their experience, post your credentials.

You claim your gun disarm was taught in the military.
What base?
Who was the instructor?
When?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Ed,
US Army Combatives clearly advocates "Control the weapon". 
http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch8.htm#sec2

An uncontrolled pistol can shoot you or others.

You're argument holds not water, nor any credibility.


----------



## MJS

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Ed,
> US Army Combatives clearly advocates "Control the weapon".
> http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/3-25.150/ch8.htm#sec2
> 
> An uncontrolled pistol can shoot you or others.
> 
> You're argument holds not water, nor any credibility.



Good points Kaith!  Funny thing is, is that I've said the same thing that is posted here



> (3) Stun the attacker with an effective counterattack. Counterattack should be swift and devastating. Take the vigor out of the attacker with a low, unexpected kick, or break a locked joint of the attacking arm. Strikes to motor nerve centers are effective stuns, as are skin tearing, eye gouging, and attacking of the throat. The defender can also take away the attacker's balance.



and Mr.Ed, seemed to think that it was worthless.  He rags on the KM disarms, which, and I'll admit are not the end all-be all to gun SD, but obviously they are using this exact same principle.  

Mike


----------



## MJS

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> More statistics:
> http://www.folders-r-us.org/statistics.htm
> http://www.t-mag.com/articles/175knife.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The average slash may do less -physical- damage than the average stab.  The psychological damage however can be quite different.  First blood may setup the victim for the fatal stab.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More excellent points!  Even if its a small cut, over time they will add up, and will have an effect on the person getting them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You also must understand the difference between "Knife Fighter" vs. "Fighting With A Knife".  There is a similar difference between a "Gun Fighter" vs "Fighting with a Gun".
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, Ed will never understand.  He only understands one thing...and that being the crap that he does in his fantasy world!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You've made many claims.
> Back them up, and while you are at it, since you asked others for their credentials and pissed all over their experience, post your credentials.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yup, you're not the only one asking for those.  His latest excuse is that they are in another language and that we wouldnt be able to understand them.  Pleeeeze!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You claim your gun disarm was taught in the military.
> What base?
> Who was the instructor?
> When?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Kaith- He probably wont be able to tell you because its probably too top secret...just like his credentials!!! :boing2:
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


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## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Here moron check out this site and read about the difference  between stabs and slashes. It even has pictures. http://www.forensicmed.co.uk/incised_wounds.htm
> 
> 
> Speak for yourself lonepuppy!!!  You know, there are many systems out there, which all have much to offer.  The sad thing is, is that you are too closed minded and ignorant to realize any of that.  If your style, system, or whatever you want to call that stuff, was soooooo  good, and sooooo ultimate, then everybody would be coming from all over the world to train with the 'ultimate one' but thats simply not the case.  Of  course, I'm sure that you think someone like Dan Inosanto and the material that he teaches is crap too??  Lets see....learn from someone like Dan, who can back what he says, or someone like you, who hides behind a cloud of mystery??? Gee, which one should I pick???
> 
> Mike


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## Bob Hubbard

Another Language?

We've got guys living and working in Japan on this board...so if its in Japanese, they can translate it...hell, they will even know what it means at a deeper level than Mr. Ed there.

Chinese?  Yup, we got those folks here too.

We even got a couple of folks who can read Klingon, just in case.

Hmm...is this it? http://www.tasteofdenver.com/goldendragon/menu/coverbak.jpg :rofl:


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## lonewolf12563

Kaith, your real name is Bob...are you a cross dresser? Ed


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## lonewolf12563

http://rustaz.com/creations/index.htm
Why I think you are fantasy boy!


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## Bester

Let us pause in Mr. Ed's proof of which portion of the horse he is, to examine his credentials.  He of course will not reply, as to do so will prove his true fraud nature.



> Itto Ogami Ryu  is dedicated to providing world-class Jujutsu instruction, programs and facilities, and to helping our students realize the significant self-defense, self-improvement and physical fitness benefits of Jujutsu.
> 
> As the Samurai of old, the main reason for learning jujutsu was to protect oneself from attack by unarmed or armed assailants. The best defense is a strong offense.  In our style you will learn simple, easy to learn techniques that will stop an attacker as quickly as possible. You will also learn many restraint techniques when the situation calls for a more controlled response.
> 
> 
> Sensei Glasheen has been studying Jujutsu since 1980. He currently holds the rank of Menkyo ( teaching license). He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer. He is currently Chief Instructor at Itto Ogami Ryu Jujutsu New York.


  Hmm....

  Questions...questions....


  Ah!  ?*When you made up the name for your style, why didn't you take the time to get the grammer for the name correct*?


  Reference: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=48551&postcount=40

  Hmm...paragraph 2 is standard marketing hype....

  Ah, #3

  "Sensei Glasheen has been studying Jujutsu since 1980."
* Who with?  What is your lineage?*

  "He currently holds the rank of Menkyo ( teaching license)."
* Who issued it and when?*

  "He served 11 years in the United States Army with the rank of Chief Warrant Officer."
  You were a CWO for 11 years? or reached it after 11 years service?
* What grade? (There are 4)
  What area os specialization?*

* 11 years?*


> Private (E-2) - 6 months
> Private First Class (E-3) - 1 year
> Specialist/Corporal (E-4) - 18 months
> Sergeant (E-5) - 4.2 years
> Staff Sergeant (E-6) - 8.5 years
> Sergeant First Class (E-7) - 13.6 years
> Master Sergeant/First Sergeant (E-8) - 17 years
> Sergeant Major (E-9) - 20.8 years


  A CWO minimally has:


> Minimum prerequisites:
> 
> Be a SGT (E5) or above
> Have a minimum of four years operational experience in 75 series MOS
> Be a 75 series MOS BNCOC graduate
> Have 6 semester hours of college level English
> Have 18 months experience supervising 75 series MOS soldiers documented on NCOER
> Have a PMOS of 75B, F, H


 
  References:
http://armedforcescareers.com/insignia_warrantofficers.html
http://leav-www.army.mil/wocc/whatiswo.htm
http://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arwarrant/bl420a.htmhttp://usmilitary.about.com/library/milinfo/arwarrant/bl420a.htm


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## Bob Hubbard

Mr. Ed said:
			
		

> Kaith, your real name is Bob...are you a cross dresser? Ed


Nope, I'm usually very cheerful when I get dressed.  



			
				Mr. Ed said:
			
		

> http://rustaz.com/creations/index.htm
> Why I think you are fantasy boy!


Now Now, showing everyone a picture of me from the late 90's isn't really good research. Lets show a more current one:

http://rustaz.com/maresume.htm

I'm the one modeling the stylish MartialTalk t-shirt (yours for only $10, includes shipping to the contenental US)

Oh, and look!

There are all my credentials.
Who, what, where and when.

Gee.... Lets compare...oh wait... You have yet to really offer any up.

Unlike you, I offer my -full- credentials (limited as they are) for public scrutiny.  Like other jackasses I've dealt with, you choose to attack a hobby of mine to deflect the attention back from your own inadequacies.

It don't work that way pal.  

Let's stick to you.  It is your ideas and credibility that is on trial here...not mine.


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## muaythaifreak

wow, this is the same moron that got banned from budoseek not long ago.  Getting a warm reception everywhere you go I see.  Looks like the guys at budoseek aren't the only ones noticing that your a fraud.  Good form, at least your consistant with your bs.


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## lonewolf12563

Its funny the same morons that post at budo seek post here too! Hey bob you took my cross dressing coment very well. Bravo! Bester and MSG I mean MJS probably would have commited suicide by now.

Bester just so you get your Army facts right I joined the military in 1980. Was promoted to E-5 in 1982. To WO-1 in 1983. I worked in the Army until 1991 at which time I went "civilian". When that part of my life was completed I got a cushy job, as a civilian working for the Air Guard. So it is easy to pull some facts off some web site...but when you have been there not everything is written in stone.
Yes I am well aware of the fact that I named my ryu the way I did. I like wolfs and the whole lonewolf thing.  So you can tell that desk jocky Cliff over at budo seek that I did on purpose. And if he was well verse on Japanese culture, each family named their ryu what they wanted. ie Kano ....Judo  or did he steal that. So big F deal. Have another donut Cliff. Oh yeh I was banned because they do not belive in freedom of speach or did I tell them to stuff their membership. Get your facts straight and present them accordingly.
Anyone who thinks I am full of **** is more than welcome to visit and train. Or you wait until I open a school and join up. Ed


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## muaythaifreak

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Its funny the same morons that post at budo seek post here too! Hey bob you took my cross dressing coment very well. Bravo! Bester and MSG I mean MJS probably would have commited suicide by now.
> 
> Bester just so you get your Army facts right I joined the military in 1980. Was promoted to E-5 in 1982. To WO-1 in 1983. I worked in the Army until 1991 at which time I went "civilian". When that part of my life was completed I got a cushy job, as a civilian working for the Air Guard. So it is easy to pull some facts off some web site...but when you have been there not everything is written in stone.
> Yes I am well aware of the fact that I named my ryu the way I did. I like wolfs and the whole lonewolf thing. So you can tell that desk jocky Cliff over at budo seek that I did on purpose. And if he was well verse on Japanese culture, each family named their ryu what they wanted. ie Kano ....Judo or did he steal that. So big F deal. Have another donut Cliff. Oh yeh I was banned because they do not belive in freedom of speach or did I tell them to stuff their membership. Get your facts straight and present them accordingly.
> Anyone who thinks I am full of **** is more than welcome to visit and train. Or you wait until I open a school and join up. Ed


Congratulations, your the only person I've ever heard of to make six pay grades in three years in any branch of the armed services.  You should have remained in the military, you'd probably be chairman of the joint chiefs of staff by now.  As for training with you, I'd be honored to do so.  God only knows what I might learn from a military/martial arts mesiah such as yourself.  Of course my limited training in Muay Thai and BJJ of the last nine years in conjunction with four years of training in the Marine Corps would surely hold no contest for someone of your advanced knowledge.  But when you do open your "school" please let me know.


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## Rich Parsons

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Oh yeh I was banned because they do not belive in freedom of speach or did I tell them to stuff their membership. Get your facts straight and present them accordingly.



Ed,

No disrespect. The internet is not 100% freedom of speach. Some sites are open. Most sites are owned by someone. Those people who own those sites technically control what and how can say what on their site. Here many people can say what they want. The Staff just asks that you keep in within the rules of MT. This is not an official warning, I am just posting this to let you know.

Regards

 :asian:


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## muaythaifreak

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Oh yeh I was banned because they do not belive in freedom of speach or did I tell them to stuff their membership. Get your facts straight and present them accordingly.
> Ed


By the way, I'm sure you are aware that one cannot ban onesself from something.  And it was more like a "your fired", "you can't fire me I quit" scenario than you just leaving so stop trying to save face.  The time for saving face for you is over.


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## Bob Hubbard

Seems Mr. Ed spent 11,17, 20? years in Uncle Sams Army, and never learned what that "Freedom of Speech" thing really means.

Well, let ol 'Wilbur' Kaith here, give you an 'edumucation'.

---
*All About Free Speech*

Freedom of Speech is a worthy concept and one which we support wholeheartedly. Indeed it is one of the founding principles of The Race Cafe. However, it is important to understand the limitations of this principle and not to abuse it.

You must understand that, especially in regard to website discussion forums, the argument "What about my right to free speech?" simply doesn't hold water either legally or morally.

*General Legal Stuff* 
Free speech does not give you the right to publicly say whatever you like -- it actually has many limitations. There are more laws governing what you can't say than what you can.

You have the right to certain religious, political and other beliefs, and you have the right to express your opinions in an appropriate way without fear of oppression. This does not mean you can demean, insult, slander or offend other people. You cannot give away personal information without consent. You cannot publish adult-only material in a public manner. You cannot publish racist or hateful material. You cannot force your opinion on other people against their will. There are many, many things you can't do.

In addition, although you may have the legal right to express a certain opinion in a public place, this does not mean you have any legal right at all to express this same opinion on someone else's property or in someone else's publication.

(In case Eddie doesn't get it, MT and Budoseek are both classified as 'Private Property')

*Your Free Speech Rights Here*
To put it bluntly, the only rights you have here are the rights we decide to issue. This is our website and we run it in the way we believe is most appropriate to facilitate our goals.

If you invite us into your house or place of business, we will respect your values and your code of conduct. If you don't like swearing, we won't swear. If you prefer that we don't discuss religion or politics, we won't. If we don't like your house rules, then maybe we won't bother coming back to your house.

This is both our home and our place of business and you are our valued guest. We want you to enjoy your time here -- all we ask is that you respect our house rules. If you find that our rules are not to your liking, you don't have to visit. You are free to set up your own website and implement your own set of rules.

There is usually a way to express your opinion without breaking the rules or offending anyone. Sometimes you just have to work a bit harder to make it happen!
======

Now that we've gotten that out of the way....No, I'm afraid I wouldn't waste my time training with you.  Based on the information presented, your concepts are flawed and a danger to your students.  I'll stick to training under qualified instructors, thank you.


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## klif

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> .....So you can tell that desk jocky Cliff over at budo seek that I did on purpose. And if he was well verse on Japanese culture, each family named their ryu what they wanted. ie Kano ....Judo or did he steal that. So big F deal. Have another donut Cliff. Oh yeh I was banned because they do not belive in freedom of speach or did I tell them to stuff their membership.......


Oh great, donut jokes about a cop, how original.  

Oh and you were banned at BudoSeek because you cannot seem to discuss things without resorting to angry tirades and insults.  Kind of like what you are doing here.  

Respectfully,

The donut eating, desk jockey,


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## Seig

OK, this is it.
Ed,
You have now posted dispicable lies about your military service. It is absolutely impossible to make E-5 in two years in the Army, even if you came in as an E-3.  Not enough time in grade or service. On top of which, you did not have enough time to become a warrant, unless you were a pilot. So, unless you were a chopper jocky, who came in as an E-5 and then were promoted to CO-1 at the completion of flight school which if my memory serves is 18 months, you are a complete liar. So here is the deal, now that you have posted something I can report you to veterans groups about. Post a CLEAN AND READABLE copy of your DD-214. You have 24 hours, if at the end of that time frame you have not, not only am I reporting you to the groups that deal with military frauds, and I am banning you from this site. If your DD-214 bears out what you said, you will get a full apology. 
The clock is ticking and the judge has spoken.
Seig
MT Admin


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## MJS

lonewolf12563 said:
			
		

> Its funny the same morons that post at budo seek post here too! Hey bob you took my cross dressing coment very well. Bravo! Bester and MSG I mean MJS probably would have commited suicide by now.



But the difference here loneone, is that people are not questioning me like they are doing to you. I, unlike you, have nothing to hide.  I gave my credentials!!! Where are yours??? 

Mike


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## Gary Crawford

"Another one bites the dust"!!!!Thank you Mr.Hubbard for busting that fraud.You'll never see his DD-214.Good Job!!!


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## muaythaifreak

I have a question, assuming all things you have said are true... as if...  How on earth did you have time to go to Japan and study jujutsu if you were busting you butt for promotion in the army.  According to your information, you joined the service the same year you began you MA studies.  Quite a feat of multi-tasking.  Because even if you did make your rank as quickly as you claim to have, you would have had to be quite a stallar performer in the military to do so.  Meritorious promotion would obviously be necessary to achieve this, and the military does not meritoriously promote at random.


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## Bester

Mr. Ed will not reply to your questions.  He will instead resort to the last resort of the fraud caught in his own lies and deceits.

Continued misdirection followed by the escape.

Someone should monitor his so called school and inform the local BBB, health department and law enforcement folks to check him out.


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## Seig

Mr. Ed is no longer a member here, this thread is closed.

Seig
MT Admin


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