# Profiling



## KenpoTex (Jul 17, 2004)

Someone sent this to me, it's humorous but makes a good point.



Profiling 

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To ensure we Americans never offend anyone - - - - particularly fanatics intent on killing us - airport screeners will not 
be allowed to profile people. They will continue random searches of 80-year-old women, little kids, airline pilots with 
proper identification, Secret Service agents who are members of the President's security detail, 85-year old 
Congressmen with metal hips, and Medal Of Honor winning former Governors. Let's pause a moment and take the 
following test.

In 1972 at the Munich Olympics, athletes were kidnapped and massacred by: 
(a) Olga Corbutt
(b) Sitting Bull
(c) Arnold Schwartzeneger
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages 17 and 40

In 1979,the U.S. embassy in Iran was taken over by:
(a) Lost Norwegians
(b) Elvis
(c) A tour bus full of 80-year-old women
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

During the 1980's a number of Americans were kidnapped in Lebanon by:
(a) John Dillinger
(b) The King of Sweden
(c) The Boy Scouts
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1983, the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut was blown up by:
(a) A pizza delivery boy
(b) Pee Wee Herman
(c) Geraldo Rivera making up for a slow news day
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 the cruise ship Achille Lauro was hijacked, and a 70 year old American passenger was murdered and 
thrown overboard by:
(a) The Smurfs
(b) Davy Jones
(c) The Little Mermaid
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.

In 1985 TWA flight 847 was hijacked at Athens, and a U.S. Navy diver was murdered by:
(a) Captain Kid
(b) Charles Lindberg
(c) Mother Teresa
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 was bombed by: 
(a) Scooby Doo
(b) The Tooth Fairy
(c) Butch Cassidy and The Sundance Kid who had a few sticks of dynamite left over from the train job.
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1993 the World Trade Center was bombed the first time by:
(a) Richard Simmons
(b) Grandma Moses
(c) Michael Jordan
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were bombed by:
(a )Mr. Rogers
(b) Hillary, to distract attention from Wild Bill's women problems
(c) The World Wrestling Federation to promote its next villain: "Mustapha the Merciless"
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

On 9/11/01, four airliners were hijacked and destroyed and thousands of people were killed by:
(a) Bugs Bunny, Wiley E. Coyote, Daffy Duck, and Elmer Fudd
(b) The Supreme Court of Florida
(c) Mr. Bean
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 the United States fought a war in Afghanistan against:
(a) Enron
(b) The Lutheran Church
(c) The NFL
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

In 2002 reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped and murdered by:
(a) Bonny and Clyde
(b) Captain Kangaroo
(c) Billy Graham
(d) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40

Hmmm . . . nope, no patterns anywhere to justify profiling!


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## Flatlander (Jul 17, 2004)

The fundamental problem with racial profiling is that the masses tend to view its use by authority as justification to support stereotyping and ethnic hatred.  Profiling can be useful tool, but it comes along with some side effects.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

I for one am willing to giving up a few of my civil liberties to live a safer world, the only questions ends up being how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves, and once we are safe, will be granted our freedoms back.


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## pete (Jul 17, 2004)

from a different perspective, as a life long new yorker, "profiling" carries serious consequences.  giving up civil liberties, to me, would be giving up our civilization.  for the reasons of obvious safety, i will gladly sacrifice my time and convenience to comply with security standards dictated by the times in which we live... but... i will not tolerate being subjected to "special treatment" because of my ancestry, skin color, religion, accent, hair color, etc.  that is just wrong.

pete


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## dearnis.com (Jul 17, 2004)

> I for one am willing to giving up a few of my civil liberties to live a safer world



One of my favorite quotes: "those who will sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither."  (paraphrased)
If you wish to give up your civil liberties all well and good but kindly dont put mine on the block as well.


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## PeachMonkey (Jul 17, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I for one am willing to giving up a few of my civil liberties to live a safer world, the only questions ends up being how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves, and once we are safe, will be granted our freedoms back.


 I think your point of view is understandable, Rob.

 However, as a student of history, I know that stripped civil liberties are far too rarely given back.  I know that scoundrels use crises to consolidate their power.  

 And, as as a student of history, I know that recent (most?  all?) US administrations cannot be fully trusted.


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## MA-Caver (Jul 17, 2004)

Dang! And I got all the answers wrong. 

The day after 9-11 on the net I put up a topic on a discussion board (no longer up) about how we (Americans) needed to be careful about racial profiling. That we don't end up treating Muslim-Americans like we did Japanese Americans in WWII simply because of their race. ... Too late. 

We all know the extraordinarily difficulties in trying to identify a potential terrorist without using their race/ethnic-background/religion as an identifying marker. The cute multiple choice test given has it's point. The hard part is identifying _which_ ones out of a group of Muslim males between the ages of 17 and 40 are the extremists and which ones are just average, good-hearted people like everyone else. 

And if we think it's hard over here? Try living in Israel or anywhere in the middle east. 

IMO we can only catch them best as we can when they make mistakes before they commit the terror.


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## someguy (Jul 17, 2004)

Guilty unless found inocent.  I love it alot.  As long as I'm not accused of anything or some one who I'm close to...
If you want I'm sure that I could make up something in the same format to show  that the same for ____ group.  I think canibals would be good.  Oh oh oh lessee.   Let's play the name canibals in the US over the last 100 years.  This comes to mind after an epsode of King of the Hill.  Jeffrey Domer is the first person who comes to mind.  Maybe I'll do more one that point later but I'll probably forget it.
I got serious issues with profiling.  And I'm not to likely to be a victim of it ever.   I'm your average white guy who can best be described as the guy who looks like the next guy.(So if Istart hangin' with the good lookin' people then I'll look good right?)
"Give me liberty or give me Death" Patrick Henry if I'm not mistaken ya know a founding father or in other words one of those guys whose ideals this country was founded on.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 17, 2004)

I am sure the founding fathers of the USA never considered terrorists who could kill thousands in seconds.


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## someguy (Jul 17, 2004)

The principle stands none the less.  Ya know pledging there lives fortunes etc. to a cause.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Jul 18, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I am sure the founding fathers of the USA never considered terrorists who could kill thousands in seconds.


Nor could they have predicted the creation of jet airliners, the internet, or hanging chads causing chaos in voting systems.  Seriously, is this statement supposed to mean or prove anything?  

At any rate, the Inquisition and Crusades both happened before their time, so culture wars weren't out of their mindsets.  Questions of human rights shouldn't come down to the efficiency of killing machines, i.e. how many seconds thousands of people die.


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## KenpoTex (Jul 18, 2004)

good points people...

My reason for posting this was not to imply that I feel that a certain group of people (in this case moslem males between the ages of 17 and 40) should be mistreated or be presumed "guilty until proven inocent." Just that I think that if we're going to be "security conscious" and have these "enhanced security procedures" then let's spend the time checking the people who fit the profile instead of trying to confiscate the Medal of Honor from an 80+ war hero or taking nail-clippers from the armed sky-marshal.


On the rights/safety issue.  I do NOT buy into the "let the government take liberties with our rights in order to protect us" idea.  Benjamin Franklin once said (this is the one dearnis paraphrased) "Those who would give up an essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."


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## DoxN4cer (Jul 18, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> And if we think it's hard over here? Try living in Israel or anywhere in the middle east.
> 
> IMO we can only catch them best as we can when they make mistakes before they commit the terror.



Europe is no picnic either. With the EU as it is; the borders are very open, which allows anybody to go from place to place often with no passport or customs control.


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## pete (Jul 18, 2004)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> ... let's spend the time checking the people who fit the profile instead of trying to confiscate the Medal of Honor from an 80+ war hero or taking nail-clippers from the armed sky-marshal...



i thought it was liberty and justice for all, not just those who don't fit your profile. somehow i don't think the heroes would mind the inconvenience and understand. 

would it also be rational for the security conscious cab driver to select his fares after dark based on his profile of what is safe?  

or police randomly stopping innocent drivers of luxury automobiles, that don't fit the profile of typical owners?


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 18, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I for one am willing to giving up a few of my civil liberties to live a safer world, the only questions ends up being how far are we willing to go to protect ourselves, and once we are safe, will be granted our freedoms back.




So you're an Arab, Rob?   Or do you merely resemble a man of mid-east descent?



Regards,


Steve


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## michaeledward (Jul 18, 2004)

And on April 19. 1995, how many of us thought that muslem extremists between the ages of 17 and 40 drove a white van filled with fertilizer and petrol to a non-descript federal building in Oklahoma? 
<<< insert graphic of michaeledward raising his hand >>>

Yep ... I'm ashamed to say, that I did not think that American's perpetrated terrorist activities. I learned my lesson that day.

But, you know, come to think of it ... how old was McVeigh? Maybe we should just lock up *all* the 17 - 40 year olds (I'll be 40 in just a couple of weeks). That will solve all our problems, won't it?

Thanks ... Mike


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## michaeledward (Jul 18, 2004)

kenpotex said:
			
		

> My reason for posting this was not to imply that I feel that a certain group of people (in this case moslem males between the ages of 17 and 40) should be mistreated or be presumed "guilty until proven inocent." Just that I think that if we're going to be "security conscious" and have these "enhanced security procedures" then let's spend the time checking the people who fit the profile instead of trying to confiscate the Medal of Honor from an 80+ war hero or taking nail-clippers from the armed sky-marshal.


And then we see articles like this ...
http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/07/17/fbi.bulletin/index.html



> *WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The FBI's weekly alert bulletin, sent to 18,000 law enforcement agencies nationwide, focused this week on the possibility of al Qaeda recruiting non-Arabs to carry out attacks in the United States.*
> "Finding operatives with U.S. [citizenship or legal residency] status would greatly facilitate al Qaeda's ability to carry out an attack within the United States," the bulletin said.


Those fighting for a cause will adapt their methods to fit the circumstances, just as the minutemen of 1775 selected the tactic of hiding behind stone walls on the green in Lexington. 

I believe racial profiling is a non-delicate instrument when wielded poorly results in greater harm for all that what it might be trying to prevent.

Thanks for listening. Mike


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## PeachMonkey (Jul 18, 2004)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Yep ... I'm ashamed to say, that I did not think that American's perpetrated terrorist activities. I learned my lesson that day.


 Similar boat here, Mike... I vividly remember where I was when I learned of the Oklahoma City bombing.  I stood in front of the entry desk to my office and said, "I wonder if it was Islamic Jihad or the PLO".  

 I had known that American groups could feasibly perform acts of terror, but I jumped to the Arab conclusion.  (And, given the state of terror groups at the time, not even a terribly educated Arab conclusion)


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## Flatlander (Jul 18, 2004)

PeachMonkey said:
			
		

> Similar boat here, Mike... I vividly remember where I was when I learned of the Oklahoma City bombing. I stood in front of the entry desk to my office and said, "I wonder if it was Islamic Jihad or the PLO".
> 
> I had known that American groups could feasibly perform acts of terror, but I jumped to the Arab conclusion. (And, given the state of terror groups at the time, not even a terribly educated Arab conclusion)


And that is one of the fundamental problems with the 'profiliing tool'.  In some ways, it can actually limit the scope of an investigation, when previous incidents have led to using profiling.  Really, who amongst us would have even entertained the notion that Oklahoma was an American?  

The profiling gets taken out of context.  Use psychological profiling to track down a criminal, sure.  But I think racial profiling must be extremely limited in its use, and there are very, very few good applications for it.


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## Rob Broad (Jul 18, 2004)

I am Canadian of Irish, Scottish and Brittish descent and very proud of it.  I am against terrorism in all it forms.  But I am willing to undergo more extensive searches at the airport, longer waits at the border when going across in my car, and delays when sending and recieving packages from the US.  I do not wish to see a police state or martial law.  Too many times I have been in airports and seen people complaining about the delays or why do they get asked so many questions, it is for their safety.  

I would not want to give up any of my Right and Freedoms that are granted to me Under the Canadian Rights and Freedoms Act, but I will give up certain liberties for safety.  I do not mind delays when they are for safety.  Nothing sacrificed means nothing gained.


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## michaeledward (Jul 18, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> ... I am willing to undergo more extensive searches at the airport, longer waits at the border when going across in my car, and delays when sending and recieving packages from the US. ...
> 
> ... I would not want to give up any of my Right and Freedoms that are granted to me Under the Canadian Rights and Freedoms Act ...


Rob, when you submit to the activities in the first paragraph, aren't you giving up some of those things you talk about in the second paragraph?

If you don't feel that being subject to 'more extensive searches', et al is not giving up some of your rights and freedoms, what description would you give to those 'more extensive searches'?

Thanks, Mike


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## Rob Broad (Jul 18, 2004)

It is an option to travel,  therefore if you chose to travel you have to expect to be searched.  Do I think they should search 80 yr old grandmothers, No.  Do I think they should search every person boarding a plane, No.  Do I think they should search a large group of people boarding a plane when they come from a country that supports terrorists, yes.  If that makes me politically incorrect I can live that.

As for more extensive searches, if they want to search everybag at the airport, fine.  I can live with that.  If they want to strip search every person at the airport, then they have croosed the line.  If they want to search everycar crossing the broder and verify citizenship, I can handle that.  I personally have had the car searched before, it is an inconvience but having interned at a border crossing in college I understand the process.


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## Flatlander (Jul 18, 2004)

I, for one, would rather they do not search every car crossing the border.  I would like to feel confident when I'm trying to smuggle cheap American booze and smokes North of the 49, thank you very much.


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## someguy (Jul 18, 2004)

No body likes my solution.  Build a huge wall around the U.S.  So big nothing can get in or out.  Then we can stop worrying about terrorists.  That or live in the middle of nowhere.  You'll be safe there.  So y'all come on down to Milledgevilee Ga.  We'll have a fun time.  Either that or its the giant wall.  eah onw or the other.  Choice is yours.


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## Feisty Mouse (Jul 18, 2004)

> Europe is no picnic either. With the EU as it is; the borders are very open, which allows anybody to go from place to place often with no passport or customs control.


 When I was in France over a year ago the security was amazing - the questions, the baggage searches.  It was quick, efficient, and thorough.


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## michaeledward (Jul 18, 2004)

someguy said:
			
		

> No body likes my solution. Build a huge wall around the U.S. So big nothing can get in or out. Then we can stop worrying about terrorists. That or live in the middle of nowhere. You'll be safe there. So y'all come on down to Milledgevilee Ga. We'll have a fun time. Either that or its the giant wall. eah onw or the other. Choice is yours.


I accept neither choice. I think other options exist. Working to reduce poverty can help reduce the ability of recruiters into para-military organizations. Working to promote democracy can be beneficial. Respecting other nations and the choices they make can reduce the allure of subversive organizations.

But perfect security is not available. Nor should it exist. Everything in life consists of risks. Certainly, we should work toward reducing risk, but not at the cost of those things that make our country what it is.

Mike


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 18, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> I am Canadian of Irish, Scottish and Brittish descent and very proud of it.




I suspected you weren't Arab, Rob.  My point was that some people who advocate profiling (and I'm not suggesting you are) say we should be willing to give up certain rights, freedoms, etc.   Yet in suggesting profiling they're westerners advocating the reduction in rights of those who have a middle eastern appearance.  

WE'RE not going to be singled out for searches...THEY are.  We're not the ones waiting in line for two hours, THEY are.

I think we need to recognize that it is a specific and targeted group whose liberties are being revoked.  It isn't "us" giving up our freedoms when we enact such a practice.  

On the note of non-Arab Muslim terrorists...they ought to be able to find some blue eyed, light skinned Chechnyans for attacks against us.  No doubt some of them are fighting us in Iraq right now.  Word had it one of Nick Berg's murderer's spoke Arab with a Russian accent...a Muslim from Georgia?  A Kazakh?


Regards,


Steve


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## Rob Broad (Jul 18, 2004)

As Canadian who cross the border quite regularily, I will say that teh search process is pretty arbitrary at times.  I have been waived on with a car load of bags and boxes, and pulled over sitting with my wife.  

I have noticed that Canadians have been targeted at the border many times just because of political climate atthe time.  I accept this as part of the way of the world, and if it bothered me too much I just wouldn't cross the border.

It is a tenuous situation these days, and there is no absolute right answer.


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## Flatlander (Jul 18, 2004)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> On the note of non-Arab Muslim terrorists...they ought to be able to find some blue eyed, light skinned Chechnyans for attacks against us. No doubt some of them are fighting us in Iraq right now. Word had it one of Nick Berg's murderer's spoke Arab with a Russian accent...a Muslim from Georgia? A Kazakh?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> ...


Steve, you have a special way of freaking me out.  Man. oh, man.  I hadn't thought about THAT.  

Dan


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## hardheadjarhead (Jul 18, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Steve, you have a special way of freaking me out.  Man. oh, man.  I hadn't thought about THAT.
> 
> Dan




Ah, yes...and had the medium provided for my deep stare, the low modulation of the voice, the stentorian tones...you and all the others would have wet your pants in terror.  Christoper Lee has NOTHING on me.

It is, indeed, something to consider.  Not all Muslims are swarthy.  But then, not all Muslims are radical terrorists, either.  


Regards,


Steve


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## someguy (Jul 18, 2004)

Oh btw my entire last post was joking.  
Oh I got an even better solution.  Lets nuke the world.  It will end all problems.  End famine ,war, plauge won't be conqured probably but Death will finally die for humans atleast. Yeah end human suffering all together.  It will end it all doncha see.
Ok on a more serious note I must ask how likely a terrorist will go to Canada then to the US.  How hard is it to go to Canada.  Like how hard is it to get a Visa for some one in the country of___ to get one and go travel to Canada.  If it is just as hard to get to Canada as it is the US then te Canada US boreder is no problem.  If it is easier.  Well then there might be a problem.  But nothing that a little advise  from south park or John Candy couldn't solve.  Canada here we come.(don't mention wa of 1812 or battle of Quebec in 1775ish anybody please.)


			
				hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Word had it one of Nick Berg's murderer's spoke Arab with a Russian accent...a Muslim from Georgia?
> Steve


Muslim from Georgia uh oh  I'm for profiling now wait other Georgia never mind.


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## RCastillo (Jul 18, 2004)

Well, speaking for Texas, Blacks/Hispanics are still profiled by the DPS (Dept of Public Safety) otherwise known as The State Troopers, and the fact is that they've not been very acurate with the numbers. They said it went down, but people in Texas and our media know better. That's Texas for ya. :idunno: 

Fact is, I'm still waitin' for my turn after 34 years of driving. Guess I'm too boring or don't look like your usual doper, alien smuggler. :idunno:  :lol:


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