# Opinions on this school please.



## Coker101 (Dec 27, 2013)

Trying to decide what to train and have always been curious about Aikido.  You guys who have trained please tell me what you think based off of what you see here please.

Site http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/index.html

Instructors http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/instructor.html

Videos http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/videos.html

Thanks


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 27, 2013)

Well for starters the guy that is promoting them Mitsugi Saotome, he is a direct disciple of the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba.


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## Coker101 (Dec 27, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well for starters the guy that is promoting them Mitsugi Saotome, he is a direct disciple of the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba.



Yeah I saw that.  That's obviously a good thing


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## K-man (Dec 27, 2013)

It really is difficult to make a judgement without visiting the dojo but it looks like a good reputable school. Aikikai is the organisation headed by Ueshiba's family and is the largest Aikido organisation in the world. As I always say, visit the school, take advantage of any free class they offer, speak to the Sensei about the training and ask some of the mid ranked students how they find the training.

One of the things I normally suggest if you had prior experience is to ask, "what if I resist the technique?" In your situation with no MA background, I would address the question to one of the students as in, "what happens if *you* resist the technique? Do the techniques work against resistance?"
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Dec 27, 2013)

K-man said:


> It really is difficult to make a judgement without visiting the dojo but it looks like a good reputable school. Aikikai is the organisation headed by Ueshiba's family and is the largest Aikido organisation in the world. As I always say, visit the school, take advantage of any free class they offer, speak to the Sensei about the training and ask some of the mid ranked students how they find the training.
> 
> One of the things I normally suggest if you had prior experience is to ask, "what if I resist the technique?" In your situation with no MA background, I would address the question to one of the students as in, "what happens if *you* resist the technique? Do the techniques work against resistance?"
> :asian:



Thanks for the reply.  

I do have some MA background.  When I was a kid I trained in Judo at the Houston Budokan and then in my late 20s went back to the same school for Jujitsu and Karate.  Unfortunately I moved and no long had the option to train there.  A year or so later I started training in Kuk Sool Won....got to brown belt about the time my wife became pregnant and then the family took what little time I had for training.  Now with my daughter a little older I'm able to train again.  I have the option to continue my Kuk Sool Won training but if I were being completely honest I have no interest.  Don't know if it was just my particular school or what but found it lacking something....maybe it was my instructor.  Anyway...you didn't ask for all that info but what the heck.  

Anyway, I wish I could go back to Houston Budokan but it's not an option.  Darrel Craig was great but I'm just too far out to travel to his school.


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## Coker101 (Dec 28, 2013)

Here is another option.

http://www.bayareacenter.net/

Instructors http://www.bayareacenter.net/index.php?src=gendocs&ref=StaffDirectory&category=Main

They are under http://www.aaa-aikido.com/founder.htm


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## K-man (Dec 28, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Here is another option.
> 
> http://www.bayareacenter.net/
> 
> ...


Almost the same answer as above. Interesting here is the connection to Koichi Tohei. He is a man who I really admire and try to utilise his teaching. He left the Aikikai because of his teaching of 'ki'. In this school it would be interesting to see if they are actually training to use ki. If they are, and can demonstrate it in a way that is real, I would certainly train with them. If not, I would probably go with your first option but either way, you won't go wrong.
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

K-man said:


> Almost the same answer as above. Interesting here is the connection to Koichi Tohei. He is a man who I really admire and try to utilise his teaching. He left the Aikikai because of his teaching of 'ki'. In this school it would be interesting to see if they are actually training to use ki. If they are, and can demonstrate it in a way that is real, I would certainly train with them. If not, I would probably go with your first option but either way, you won't go wrong.
> :asian:



Don't most Aikido schools teach the use of Ki?  I thought it was a fairly large part of the art?


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## K-man (Dec 30, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Don't most Aikido schools teach the use of Ki?  I thought it was a fairly large part of the art?


Depends on what you call Ki. People have different understanding of Ki. Most people can cope with the understanding of hard Ki. We all have it and we all train it without having to think about it. Soft Ki is totally different. To my mind Koichi Tohei was the guru. He wanted to pass on what he had learned and was forced into a position where he had to leave the Ueshiba organisation (Aikikai) and set up his own. If you come across someone who can demonstrate soft Ki, and I'm not referring to folks like the 'Ki Master' that people throw up every time Ki is discussed, sign up and start learning. It will change your understanding totally.

Many Aikido schools teach that you never resist. You learn to receive and in doing so the 'Ki starts to flow' and there is harmonisation. The problem then arises, as happened in my school years back, where an experienced Aikidoka comes to teach Aikido techniques to karate students and one of the karate guys says, "what if I resist?" Nothing the poor guy could do worked against resistance. Now the arguement becomes, "oh, you need to attack with intent" or "normally I would hit you first" etc." but the unfortunate reality is that after spending a long, long time studying, their martial art is not effective. Aikido works for smaller people against bigger people and for weaker people against stronger if it is trained the way Ueshiba and Tohei taught it. The techniques can be trained slowly and against resistance. I know that because this is the way we train Aikido and it is the same way I teach my karate guys how to do the same techniques. If you can make your technique work slowly against resistance it will work in real life where it is normally applied faster and against less resistance as in a committed attack.

In a previous thread, I was taken to task for suggesting someone trying out an Aikido school should ask the guys at the proposed school to demonstrate their techniques against resistance without causing physical damage. I still maintain, a good instructor should be able to do that, an ordinary one won't.
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

K-man said:


> Depends on what you call Ki. People have different understanding of Ki. Most people can cope with the understanding of hard Ki. We all have it and we all train it without having to think about it. Soft Ki is totally different. To my mind Koichi Tohei was the guru. He wanted to pass on what he had learned and was forced into a position where he had to leave the Ueshiba organisation (Aikikai) and set up his own. If you come across someone who can demonstrate soft Ki, and I'm not referring to folks like the 'Ki Master' that people throw up every time Ki is discussed, sign up and start learning. It will change your understanding totally.
> 
> Many Aikido schools teach that you never resist. You learn to receive and in doing so the 'Ki starts to flow' and there is harmonisation. The problem then arises, as happened in my school years back, where an experienced Aikidoka comes to teach Aikido techniques to karate students and one of the karate guys says, "what if I resist?" Nothing the poor guy could do worked against resistance. Now the arguement becomes, "oh, you need to attack with intent" or "normally I would hit you first" etc." but the unfortunate reality is that after spending a long, long time studying, their martial art is not effective. Aikido works for smaller people against bigger people and for weaker people against stronger if it is trained the way Ueshiba and Tohei taught it. The techniques can be trained slowly and against resistance. I know that because this is the way we train Aikido and it is the same way I teach my karate guys how to do the same techniques. If you can make your technique work slowly against resistance it will work in real life where it is normally applied faster and against less resistance as in a committed attack.
> 
> ...



Ok so let me see here.  So in your experience would you say that Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people?  And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?

See I'm not small...I'm a fairly big guys at 6' 200+ lbs (not massive and not small but big I guess).  And while I'm not all muscle I'm not weak either.  

If I were to get into a situation I would not lean on Aikido unless I found myself in a situation where I had an opening to do so.  Otherwise in all honesty I would look to smash a face with my fist as a first option.  In my experience trying to intercept a strike is way to difficult and obviously they are not going to wait for you to do what you do.

However I have seen a lot of fights where two get in close and try to hold the others arm to keep them from punching the other in the face.  In a situation like that it would seem like Aikido would have an upper hand for sure.  But I have not trained in Aikido so I'm just going off of what I have seen.

Your opinion please.  I could always try out the class but I like hearing from unbiased people first hand.

Thanks for the replies.


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## K-man (Dec 30, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Ok so let me see here.  So in your experience would you say that Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people?  And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?
> 
> Not at all. I'm not small or weak either but with the aikido techniques you don't have to use strength to perform techniques or resist techniques. So in theory a 5'6" 145lb female would be capable of handling a much larger male attacker. In practice there is a lot more to it than that which is why effective aikido takes longer to learn than a more simple striking art.
> 
> ...


:asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 30, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Ok so let me see here.  So in your experience would you say that Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people?  And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?
> 
> See I'm not small...I'm a fairly big guys at 6' 200+ lbs (not massive and not small but big I guess).  And while I'm not all muscle I'm not weak either.
> 
> ...



I am not an Aikido person so take this for what it is worth

Aikido is only beneficial for smaller and weaker people? No, my daughters Sensei is 6 foot tall not all that weak and damn good 

And only if they have trained in a more realistic/against resistance way? Yes, just find a good Aikido school

The thing is you are not always trying to intercept the strike you are trying to avoid it, you may be able to intercept it, you may be able to block it or you may simply just be able to get out of the way of it.


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I guess depending on the situation I might not smash a face.  That would only be IF I could avoid it without getting hurt.  But it would seem that depending 100% on Aikido would be really difficult.  Maybe if I got to a point where I had that confidence I would see it differently.


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

Here is the only other Aikido school that could be an option.  

http://www.clearcreekaikido.com/index.php

It's Tomiki-ryu Aikido which I know nothing about at all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> trained in a more realistic/against resistance way?


There are different reasons to train with non-resisted opponent vs. to train with resisted opponent. When your opponent attack you, you borrow his force, 

- and take him down in the same direction as he is moving, that's single technique development training.
- he resists, you borrow his resisted force, and take him down in the opposite direction, that's combo technique development training.

Both training are needed.


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## K-man (Dec 30, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Here is the only other Aikido school that could be an option.
> 
> http://www.clearcreekaikido.com/index.php
> 
> It's Tomiki-ryu Aikido which I know nothing about at all.


Tomiki was one of Ueshiba's students who chose a slightly different path. He added a competitive element to his training. Personally, that style is not for me but once again, give it a try, see what they have to offer you. Remember, Aikido is a long haul MA. A little time checking out at this time will pay in spades later.
:asian:


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## K-man (Dec 30, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There are different reasons to train with non-resisted opponent vs. to train with resisted opponent. When your opponent attack you, you borrow his force,
> 
> - and take him down in the same direction as he is moving, that's single technique development training.
> - he resists, you borrow his resisted force, and take him down in the opposite direction, that's combo technique development training.
> ...


I'm not suggesting for a moment that you resist when you are utilising Aikido. What I am suggesting is that a good Aikidoka can overcome resistance with no effort utilising the principle you describe. Training not to resist is training to receive and is important for many reasons.  But training with a compliant partner does not test your Aikido skills and people can get a very false sense of their ability. Most Aikido people I have met look great with a compliant partner, but it starts to unravel when they meet resistance unless they are properly trained. 

Hence my my comment that I would not bother training in a school that could not demonstrate the ability to perform their techniques slowly and safely against a resisting opponent.
:asian:


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## Coker101 (Dec 30, 2013)

K-man said:


> Tomiki was one of Ueshiba's students who chose a slightly different path. He added a competitive element to his training. Personally, that styles not for me but once again, give it a try, see what they have to offer you. Remember, Aikido is a long haul MA. A little time checking out at this time will pay in spades later.
> :asian:



I did a little search and it looks like he added a good bit of judo and they tend to be a little more aggressive. Thats what's I picked up in 5 minutes  of reading. I trained in judo when I was very young...I could see how one could benefit from the other.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 30, 2013)

K-man said:


> but it starts to unravel when they meet resistance unless they are properly trained.


Many years ago, an Aikido black belt friend of mine came to visit me in Austin, Texas. It happened that there was a Karate tournament in town that day. We both put gloves on and fought in that Karate tournament. Few weeks later, my friend was kicked out of his Aikido association.

There is difference between "skill developing" and "skill testing". 

You use 

1. non-resisted partner to "develop" your solo skill.
2. resisted partner to "develop" your combo skill.
3. resisted partner to "test" your over all skill.

The difference between 2 and 3 is in 

- 2, you know exactly what your opponent is going to do. 
- 3, you don't know what your opponent is going to do.

Since Aikido system doesn't have tournament, the "testing" 3 is not available.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 30, 2013)

Coker101 said:


> Trying to decide what to train and have always been curious about Aikido.  You guys who have trained please tell me what you think based off of what you see here please.
> 
> Site http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/index.html
> 
> ...





Coker101 said:


> Here is another option.
> 
> http://www.bayareacenter.net/
> 
> ...





Coker101 said:


> Here is the only other Aikido school that could be an option.
> 
> http://www.clearcreekaikido.com/index.php
> 
> It's Tomiki-ryu Aikido which I know nothing about at all.



Visit the schools. See if you like them/like the instructor and group. Outside opinions mean little to nothing next to that. We can tell you about the history of each organisation (to a general degree), but that's it. You want to know what that school is like? Go visit them.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 30, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago, an Aikido black belt friend of mine came to visit me in Austin, Texas. It happened that there was a Karate tournament in town that day. We both put gloves on and fought in that Karate tournament. Few weeks later, my friend was kicked out of his Aikido association.
> 
> There is difference between "skill developing" and "skill testing".
> 
> ...



Competition is not the only, nor even necessarily the best method of "testing" other than within the competitive format... most Aikido do forms of unscripted/free-form expression (randori), so the comment at the end is inaccurate. Oh, and Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido does have tournaments, for the record...


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## K-man (Dec 30, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many years ago, an Aikido black belt friend of mine came to visit me in Austin, Texas. It happened that there was a Karate tournament in town that day. We both put gloves on and fought in that Karate tournament. Few weeks later, my friend was kicked out of his Aikido association.
> 
> There is difference between "skill developing" and "skill testing".
> 
> ...


As Chris has said, Tomiki Aikido does have tournaments. One of my friends has only recently returned from competing in Japan.

I think you are ignoring the fact that Aikido does contain atemi. Whether it is taught in particular schools or not is beside the point. Some techniques rely on atemi for their effect. The normal randori that you see in Aikido normally doesn't have resistance so it is not a test of the technique, just a test of your ability to choose a technique. Real fights don't happen that way. But I teach all the aikido techniques in my karate and my guys don't have the receiving mindset of my aikido partners. Testing 3 is alive and well there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Tomiki/Shodokan Aikido does have tournaments, for the record...


Could you put up any clip for that? Are those tournaments open for other MA styles?


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## K-man (Dec 31, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Could you put up any clip for that? Are those tournaments open for other MA styles?


There is quite a lot of competition stuff on a YouTube but most of it is pretty scrappy. To me it demonstrates that Aikido was never designed to be a competitive sport.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b-AdZo3nrDk

I'm not sure if anyone can compete but the competition rules are restrictive.
:asian:


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## Spinedoc (Dec 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> As Chris has said, Tomiki Aikido does have tournaments. One of my friends has only recently returned from competing in Japan.
> 
> I think you are ignoring the fact that Aikido does contain atemi. Whether it is taught in particular schools or not is beside the point. Some techniques rely on atemi for their effect. The normal randori that you see in Aikido normally doesn't have resistance so it is not a test of the technique, just a test of your ability to choose a technique. Real fights don't happen that way. But I teach all the aikido techniques in my karate and my guys don't have the receiving mindset of my aikido partners. Testing 3 is alive and well there.



This. We practice atemi with a multitide of our techniques. We were practicing Ikkyo last night, both Omote and Ura, and using an atemi strike to the face to set up the ikkyo. 

I also found something out....when Yonkyo gets applied correctly.....well, yep, it hurts like hell. Dam....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

K-man said:


> There is quite a lot of competition stuff on a YouTube but most of it is pretty scrappy. To me it demonstrates that Aikido was never designed to be a competitive sport.
> 
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b-AdZo3nrDk
> 
> ...


Thanks for showing that clip. That's the 1st Aikido tournament clip that I have seen.


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## K-man (Dec 31, 2013)

Spinedoc said:


> This. We practice atemi with a multitide of our techniques. We were practicing Ikkyo last night, both Omote and Ura, and using an atemi strike to the face to set up the ikkyo.
> 
> I also found something out....when Yonkyo gets applied correctly.....well, yep, it hurts like hell. Dam....


Told you so! 

:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:


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## Chris Parker (Dec 31, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Could you put up any clip for that?



Sure.






A little shorter than K-Man's, and showing a few more aspects. Commonly, their competitive format is geared around tantodori (knife defence/taking), as shown, but does also include unarmed versus unarmed.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are those tournaments open for other MA styles?



Why would they be?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clip!

I know the chief coach of UT Aikido club very well (we train &#38050;&#26580;&#27969; Karate in YMCA together back to 1972). 

http://blogs.utexas.edu/aikido/coaches/

I have not seen this kind of tournament before. Open hand against dagger, it sounds like fun tournament rule set. The reason that I asked (whether this kind of tournaments are open to different MA systems or not) because anybody can compete Judo, Karate tournaments as long as you follow the tournament rules. If those tournaments are open, my guys would like to participate and have fun too.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 1, 2014)

I'm not sure you're correct about anyone being able to compete in, say, Judo tournaments... you'd need to register, which would mean you'd need to show your level/experience/rank in Judo... same with many Karate tournaments... sure, there are "All Style" tournaments, but they're hardly the methodology of all tournaments...

Oh, and you did realize that such tournaments (Aikido) are exclusively the domain of Tomiki Aikido, also known as Shodokan Aikido, not any other forms of the art. Your friend who teaches at the University of Texas doesn't do Tomiki, so it'd be a moot point with him. Their Aikido comes from Koichi Tohei via Roderick Kobayashi, and is Seidokan Aikido.


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## Coker101 (Jan 4, 2014)

So I did stop by the Galveston dojo http://www.utsusemiaikikai.com/index.html today.

I liked the instructor and how he ran his class.  Very nice guy from what I saw.  He also did a really good job with instruction in my opinion, showing different ways to do the same technique depending on if you want to restrain, hurt or possibly severely hurt you opponent.  I liked what I saw and it's on the island I live on so it's pretty close.  Also helps he is under Saotome which is also a good thing.


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