# 15yo Kills Herself After Being Bullied



## MJS (Mar 30, 2010)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100329/ap_on_re_us/us_school_bullying

Saw this on the news today as well.  Its sad and disgusting as well, that kids can't even go to school today, without having to fear punks, who thrive on bullying and making the lives of these kids miserable.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 30, 2010)

Sickening.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 30, 2010)

MJS said:


> Its sad and disgusting as well, that kids can't even go to school today, without having to fear punks, who thrive on bullying and making the lives of these kids miserable.



There is no "today" about it.  My wife's grandfather was beaten up routinely in his small coastal high school in the 40's because he was new there.  

I wonder sometimes if putting kids together in large age matched groups with few adults around is the root of these behavioral issues.  In the past, children were mostly in mixed groups of adults and multiple aged children.  Awfully hard to bully some kid if their older brother or parent is nearby.  Kids are little monsters, and need to have proper behavior taught, modeled by, and controlled by adults.  It seems like we keep getting "Lord of the Flies" when kids are left to their own devices in large groups.


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## seasoned (Mar 30, 2010)

This is a parents worst nightmare, and a very damaging experience for kids also. In this day and age schools should not just blow off this type of situation, "as kids will be kids". Kids can be very cruel, and it takes adults to not turn a blind eye in an obvious on going problem as this one. Very sad indeed.


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> There is no "today" about it. My wife's grandfather was beaten up routinely in his small coastal high school in the 40's because he was new there.
> 
> I wonder sometimes if putting kids together in large age matched groups with few adults around is the root of these behavioral issues. In the past, children were mostly in mixed groups of adults and multiple aged children. Awfully hard to bully some kid if their older brother or parent is nearby. Kids are little monsters, and need to have proper behavior taught, modeled by, and controlled by adults. It seems like we keep getting "Lord of the Flies" when kids are left to their own devices in large groups.


 
My bad...poor choice of wording on my part.  

When did the mixing of kids/adults/older children take place?  When I was in school, there was 1 teacher, and then the kids mixed in.


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2010)

seasoned said:


> This is a parents worst nightmare, and a very damaging experience for kids also. In this day and age schools should not just blow off this type of situation, "as kids will be kids". Kids can be very cruel, and it takes adults to not turn a blind eye in an obvious on going problem as this one. Very sad indeed.


 
IMO, the schools need to take a strong stance on bullying.  Its their job to ensure that learning takes place.  Its no different, IMO, than a martial arts school.  I'm there to teach, the kids are there to learn.  If 1 or more kids are being disruptive, then those kids need to be removed.  But nothing should be blown off and chalked up to kids being kids.


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## Ramirez (Mar 30, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, the schools need to take a strong stance on bullying


 
Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it seemed schools took very little concern about the bullying taking place. Having a step-son that just entered high school, it seems bullying is kind of turned a blind eye to even now.



I sometimes think adolescents are complete sociopaths. 



Maybe Gordon can share more light on how it is monitored and handled currently in the greater Toronto area.

Funny, I was just contacted on Facebook by a girl in my k-8 school, who was unmercifully bullied, telling me that I was quite kind to her back then, I responded back that I felt a bit guilty about not standing up to her worst tormentor back then.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 30, 2010)

Sad.
The schools i've been in here in this board and the district in New York state have tonnes of posters rallying against bullying. Now having a poster vs. a program are two very differnet things, i don't know what else they do.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 30, 2010)

I think that things have gotten MUCH worse in recent years.  You didn't hear nearly as much about suicides and serious problems 10 years ago.  Not that bullying wasn't as bad...but now technology has propelled it to a new level.  When I was in school, I was tormeted horribly.  I hated my life and feared going to school every day....but when I left, it was over.  I could go home and be away from it.  

NOW, you go home, get on the internet and you're not away from it.  There is facebook, myspace, e-mail, webpages, and on and on and on....if you're a bullied kid, you are assaulted with it 24 hours a day, there is no escape.  they can get to you anywhere.  God forbid there is a computer hacker in the group of tormenters....It is no wonder that kids kill themselves - that is one of the main reasons for suicide, seeing no hope, no escape, and no chance for your situation to improve.


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## Ramirez (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Sad.
> The schools i've been in here in this board and the district in New York state have tonnes of posters rallying against bullying. Now having a poster vs. a program are two very differnet things, i don't know what else they do.


 

And what do you do as a parent when trying to get the school to do something fails?

Kids are savvy today, they know they have pretty much immunity to do whatever they want.

There was a case a few years ago in the greater Toronto area where a boy was getting bullied , his father finally had enough and out of frustration grabbed one of the boy's tormentors put him up against a wall and threatened him....the father was charged.

Can't say I haven't felt like doing that myself in a couple of cases.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 30, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> And what do you do as a parent when trying to get the school to do something fails?
> 
> Kids are savvy today, they know they have pretty much immunity to do whatever they want.
> 
> ...


 
My son was being bullied a bit in grade school, and the school tried to stop it but the other kid kept it up. I signed my son up for boxing lessons, imagine my surprise when the bullying ended pretty quickly after that....sure my son got suspended once or twice, but no one ever bullied him or his friends again.


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## Ramirez (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> My son was being bullied a bit in grade school, and the school tried to stop it but the other kid kept it up. I signed my son up for boxing lessons, imagine my surprise when the bullying ended pretty quickly after that....sure my son got suspended once or twice, but no one ever bullied him or his friends again.


 

I signed mine up for judo, then (without telling his mother),  took him in the basement and had him practice clotheslining me across the chest for 1/2 an hour with instructions to do the same around the head of his tormentor the next time.

Seemed to have worked.

What we did is of course frowned upon (his mother was livid with me), on the other hand what else do you do?


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## Omar B (Mar 30, 2010)

That's really sad.  I myself went to 4 different high schools and have dealt with the being the new kid thing and bullies on multiple occasions.  It's really sickening that this child let it pill her under.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 30, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> I signed mine up for judo, then (without telling his mother), took him in the basement and had him practice clotheslining me across the chest for 1/2 an hour with instructions to do the same around the head of his tormentor the next time.
> 
> Seemed to have worked.
> 
> What we did is of course frowned upon (his mother was livid with me), on the other hand what else do you do?


 
I guess we're evil? 

**** it, you simply do not mess with my children. 

Lets be honest, some adults still bully at work. They ignore people, talk behind their backs at the very least, don't invite them when they go out for lunch with everyone else...etc. It might not be physical anymore, but i'm sure it still hurts.

I haven't tolerated intolerable behaviour in 25 years, I won't anymore.


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## Ramirez (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I guess we're evil?
> 
> **** it, you simply do not mess with my children.
> 
> ...


 
I have seen worse than that, got canned from my first job because I wouldn't put up with *****.  Had a bit of revenge years later when I almost had the manager of the department canned when I found a massive error that he made at another company we both ended up working at, he ended up demoted as it was.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Mar 30, 2010)

I am really curious how much information will come out in this case.
Like all cases involving juveniles they keep alot of information concealed from the public. A few things that make me double take is the fact they are charging the kids with statutory rape. It appears at some point the girl and members from this group of kids had sex, or at least thats what the charges would lead you to think... if they are not calling it a gang rape situation, it also leads one to think at some point it was consensual, or as consensual as a teenager can get. I think this story is going to get really muddy before it all is finally resolved. A shame that the parents have so little control over their kids that it comes to this point.
I blame the parents of all these kids, including the one who committed suicide. They all should have had a much better grasp on what their kids were doing, this shows neglect on all the parents, they either neglected to actively participate in their kids lives, or worse they knew what their kids were doing and neglected to step in and intervene... A truely disgusting story no matter how it turns out at this point.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2010)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I am really curious how much information will come out in this case.
> Like all cases involving juveniles they keep alot of information concealed from the public. A few things that make me double take is the fact they are charging the kids with statutory rape. It appears at some point the girl and members from this group of kids had sex, or at least thats what the charges would lead you to think... if they are not calling it a gang rape situation, it also leads one to think at some point it was consensual, or as consensual as a teenager can get. I think this story is going to get really muddy before it all is finally resolved. A shame that the parents have so little control over their kids that it comes to this point.
> I blame the parents of all these kids, including the one who committed suicide. They all should have had a much better grasp on what their kids were doing, this shows neglect on all the parents, they either neglected to actively participate in their kids lives, or worse they knew what their kids were doing and neglected to step in and intervene... A truely disgusting story no matter how it turns out at this point.


I am curious as to the question of her being scuicidal in the first place. Did she have mental issues such as manic depression? Are drugs involved? Why was she out having sexual encounters? Were her parents paying attention? Not that bullying isn't a problem, but enquiring minds want to know.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 30, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> I have seen worse than that, got canned from my first job because I wouldn't put up with *****. Had a bit of revenge years later when I almost had the manager of the department canned when I found a massive error that he made at another company we both ended up working at, he ended up demoted as it was.


We had a bullying type manager where I work, one day he got the bright idea to start poking an employee in the chest while screaming at him. The next thing that manager knew was right cross and a boot stomping on his head and neck. I was near and it sounded like a dog got hit by a car. Long story short, they are both gone.
Sean


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## Stac3y (Mar 30, 2010)

When I was about 7, I was attacked by a couple of young teenage boys--verbally and with thrown rocks that actually drew blood. My father chased them down, grabbed them by their necks (one per hand; probably gave them a good shaking or ten, as well as a major hollering at), and marched them to their parents' house. He had a few words with their parents, who were mortified. This was back in the 1970s. The parents didn't even try to argue about it, just took them inside and promised my dad that he would never see them do something like that again. They made good on that promise, too; I don't recall seeing those boys outdoors without an adult chaperone for the next several years, after which they moved. My dad may not have always handled every situation correctly, but I think he aced that one. For a kid getting victimized, feeling his or her parent/s will protect them is part of what is needed to keep them stable. I wonder if this girl felt that way? I doubt it.


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## Ramirez (Mar 30, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> My dad may not have always handled every situation correctly, but I think he aced that one. For a kid getting victimized, feeling his or her parent/s will protect them is part of what is needed to keep them stable. I wonder if this girl felt that way? I doubt it.


 
These days your dad would be arrested. Bullying seems to be in some nebulous area these days,  police don't seem to be concerned with it, schools are not effective in dealing with it leaving a parent with his hands tied except to do what Ken and I did....teach your kids to fight back.


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## grydth (Mar 30, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> I signed mine up for judo, then (without telling his mother),  took him in the basement and had him practice clotheslining me across the chest for 1/2 an hour with instructions to do the same around the head of his tormentor the next time.
> 
> Seemed to have worked.
> 
> What we did is of course frowned upon (his mother was livid with me), on the other hand what else do you do?



Aside from "Karate Kid" mythology, martial arts lessons can be very useful in removing kids from being beaten by bullies. This produces other challenges, though...

One is the absurd "Zero Tolerance" (read Zero Justice) policies that punish the defender along with the bully.... ridiculous..... although the school here appeared to have a "Complete Tolerance" policy.

Another is that you have a very formidable young person.... and I had to use *considerable *efforts last year to prevent my 14 year old from completely destroying another girl who was stalking/harassing/lying about her..... my daughter has a future, unlike the loser, and foregoing force was the correct path... 

But there's a huge difference when your child knows she could obliterate the bully, but is strong enough to resist it... and when a child feels powerless....


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## d1jinx (Mar 30, 2010)

I guess those times I drove over the bridge and saw someone there and screamed "JUMP" as I drove by wasn't too smart.....


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## grydth (Mar 30, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I guess those times I drove over the bridge and saw someone there and screamed "JUMP" as I drove by wasn't too smart.....



She didn't jump off a bridge. She hung herself at home.

Her 12 year old sister found her body.

The teens accused thought it was a big joke, too, and posted all sorts of comments on line.


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it seemed schools took very little concern about the bullying taking place. Having a step-son that just entered high school, it seems bullying is kind of turned a blind eye to even now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I've been out of school for quite a while now and while there was bullying, I dont recall hearing much about people killing themselves over it.  Especially with people not hesitating to sue, you'd figure the schools wouldn't turn a blind eye, out of fear of getting sued.  I know that if I had kids, and they were being picked on, or Godforbid, killed themselves because of bullying, there would certainly be hell to pay.


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## d1jinx (Mar 30, 2010)

grydth said:


> She didn't jump off a bridge. She hung herself at home.
> 
> Her 12 year old sister found her body.
> 
> The teens accused thought it was a big joke, too, and posted all sorts of comments on line.


 
POINT IS....
people do dumb stuff and dont consider the consequenses.


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## grydth (Mar 30, 2010)

Really? One would never have gotten such a "point" without assistance and explanation.... 

At first...it seemed _*so much*_ like the malicious on line postings the bullies made after her death...


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> When I was about 7, I was attacked by a couple of young teenage boys--verbally and with thrown rocks that actually drew blood. My father chased them down, grabbed them by their necks (one per hand; probably gave them a good shaking or ten, as well as a major hollering at), and marched them to their parents' house. He had a few words with their parents, who were mortified. This was back in the 1970s. The parents didn't even try to argue about it, just took them inside and promised my dad that he would never see them do something like that again. They made good on that promise, too; I don't recall seeing those boys outdoors without an adult chaperone for the next several years, after which they moved. My dad may not have always handled every situation correctly, but I think he aced that one. For a kid getting victimized, feeling his or her parent/s will protect them is part of what is needed to keep them stable. I wonder if this girl felt that way? I doubt it.


 
Not nearly as bad as what happened to you, but, I too was picked on.  I recall one day, I was on lunch, and stepped into the hall to use the payphone to call home.  While I was on the phone with my Mom, one of the usual suspects started his crap.  My Father came down went into the office, and said that he wanted to speak to the principal.  They told him he was in a meeting.  Needless to say, he didn't buy the story, went to the door, and walked right in....to find the principal sitting at his desk. 

Lets just say that from that day on, that particular person didn't bother me from that day on.


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## grydth (Mar 30, 2010)

MJS said:


> Not nearly as bad as what happened to you, but, I too was picked on.  I recall one day, I was on lunch, and stepped into the hall to use the payphone to call home.  While I was on the phone with my Mom, one of the usual suspects started his crap.  My Father came down went into the office, and said that he wanted to speak to the principal.  They told him he was in a meeting.  Needless to say, he didn't buy the story, went to the door, and walked right in....to find the principal sitting at his desk.
> 
> Lets just say that from that day on, that particular person didn't bother me from that day on.



My father did something similar to Stacy's when the local lunatic's dog was let loose and came after me...... dog never ran loose again.

My daughter, as I said in an earlier post, has the ability to defend herself but I convince her not to unless necessary. On one occasion I contacted the princepal and she asked if my daughter needed any type of counselling. I calmly explained that my kid was fine; I was actually concerned that, if confronted my multiple girls, she would go through them like a knife through hot butter; I was concerned, I said, that the nasty girl might be very seriously injured. 

Those girls would take detours to avoid my kid after that - and she never had to hit even one of them.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 30, 2010)

Parents need to be involved in their childrens lives, that's their job. 

If they are the parents of bullies, they need to nip it in the bud as early as possible and reform the behaviour. If they are the parents of the victim they need to be positive to their kids, ride the schools ***, contact the bullies parents, get them into self defence, essentially whatever is necessary to stop the **** from happening again.

I don't know why so many people still think that being bullied is part of growing up, its not.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2010)

MBuzzy said:


> I think that things have gotten MUCH worse in recent years. You didn't hear nearly as much about suicides and serious problems 10 years ago. Not that bullying wasn't as bad...but now technology has propelled it to a new level. When I was in school, I was tormeted horribly. I hated my life and feared going to school every day....but when I left, it was over. I could go home and be away from it.
> 
> NOW, you go home, get on the internet and you're not away from it. There is facebook, myspace, e-mail, webpages, and on and on and on....if you're a bullied kid, you are assaulted with it 24 hours a day, there is no escape. they can get to you anywhere. God forbid there is a computer hacker in the group of tormenters....It is no wonder that kids kill themselves - that is one of the main reasons for suicide, seeing no hope, no escape, and no chance for your situation to improve.


Suicide remains a big problem for teens.  It's not a new issue; rather, it's STILL a problem.  Bullies aren't new and the effects on teens who are developing self image are often sadly predictable.  I had a friend shoot himself in my sophomore year.  He was gay and didn't want his parents to find out.  He got bullied, too.  I still feel guilty for being oblivious to the pain he was in.

Suicide rates are, as far as I can tell, actually lower now than 10 years ago, and much lower than they were in the 70s/80s.  According to the CDC, the rates have fallen overall since 1991.  You can get custom reports on mortality at the CDC from 1999 through 2006, as well.  Interesting stuff.

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/trends02.html

http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/fatal.html

While it's easy to see that we need to support the kids who are bullied, I think that it's just as important to identify the needs of the kids who are compelled to bully.  I mean, we know that kids who bully often do so due to low self esteem, bully issues themselves (they are prey themselves to bullies), issues in their home, legitimate mental health issues or something along those lines.  If the goal is to stop bullying in school, nipping it in the bud is critical.  Help the victims to stop being victims, but break the cycle of bullying for kids who are beginning to act out in that way.


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## grydth (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Parents need to be involved in their childrens lives, that's their job.
> 
> If they are the parents of bullies, they need to nip it in the bud as early as possible and reform the behaviour. If they are the parents of the victim they need to be positive to their kids, ride the schools ***, contact the bullies parents, get them into self defence, essentially whatever is necessary to stop the **** from happening again.
> 
> I don't know why so many people still think that being bullied is part of growing up, its not.



You know, Ken, I think the bullies learn a lot of the bad behavior *at home*. One of the bad kids I mentioned earlier - turns out she was regularly beaten by her nutty father; mom never did anything about it.

Problem is, as a society we then let the products of this ysfunction wreak havoc on others outside the home.

We do need to reinforce with our kids that they can come to us and that suicide is never the answer.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> POINT IS....
> people do dumb stuff and dont consider the consequenses.


While d1jinx might have said it more tactfully, the point made is an important one. I was mercilessly picked on as a kid. I was smart, had red hair, a smart mouth and was the new kid at school almost every year. I was a pretty mean kid by the time 6th grade rolled around. We moved from Houston to Austin and I decided that I wasn't going to be bullied anymore. I considered it self-defense, and I went out of my way to bully the bullies in the 6th and 7th grade. I looked for them and tormented them ruthlessly, using all of the verbal skills I'd gained from constant bullying from 2nd grade through 5th grade, getting into fights almost every day. While I grew out of it in high school and became my current lovable self, it's only as an adult looking back that I can see how much a part of the cycle I was. I have no doubt at all that some of those kids from Austin, TX remember ME as the bully.

So, again, while d1jinx might have said it better, people do grow up. I'm sure we can all think back to times as kids when we still blush with shame at the things we did.


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## Steve (Mar 30, 2010)

grydth said:


> You know, Ken, I think the bullies learn a lot of the bad behavior *at home*. One of the bad kids I mentioned earlier - turns out she was regularly beaten by her nutty father; mom never did anything about it.
> 
> Problem is, as a society we then let the products of this ysfunction wreak havoc on others outside the home.
> 
> We do need to reinforce with our kids that they can come to us and that suicide is never the answer.


Exactly. That's part of what I was getting at. If we know why the child is bullying other children, doesn't that child deserve help too?  In many cases, the bully isn't the problem.  Rather, the bully is a symptom of a larger problem that can be solved.


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## MJS (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Parents need to be involved in their childrens lives, that's their job.
> 
> If they are the parents of bullies, they need to nip it in the bud as early as possible and reform the behaviour. If they are the parents of the victim they need to be positive to their kids, ride the schools ***, contact the bullies parents, get them into self defence, essentially whatever is necessary to stop the **** from happening again.
> 
> I don't know why so many people still think that being bullied is part of growing up, its not.


 
QFT!  My Mother always says, "Kids will learn what they live" and I believe that 100%.  Parents need to be involved with their kids, know what their kids do, and teach them right from wrong.  Then again, if the parents are just as bad as the kids.....


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 30, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> Growing up in the 70s and 80s, it seemed schools took very little concern about the bullying taking place. Having a step-son that just entered high school, it seems bullying is kind of turned a blind eye to even now.


 
I was bullied daily during grade seven and eight: Taunts, being shoved, stuff taken. It was an all-male Catholic school, and there was a kind of "boys will be boys" mentality about it. At some point my parents understood the frustration I was feeling and encouraged me to fight back. I did not learn until years later that they went to the principal and my homeroom teacher and informed them that as they didn't like fighting, I had been told to fight back if I deemed necessary. So a couple of times, right in front of my teachers, kids taunted me and I went after them.

Never forget one day, a kid called me (******, queer, gay boy, or whatever), and I launched into him, much like the kid in A Christmas Story, fists and obscenities flying. I was no fighter, but I had passion. Brother Arthur, a legendary teacher at De La Salle, calls the two of us into his room for an explanation. Brother was a "spare the rod" kind of teacher, and I looked him square in the eye -- I was twelve -- and told him, "That bastard's been calling me a ****** all year, and I'm not putting up with it." He was thunderstruck, but I didn't get a whoopin' for it. He just told me to sit down. 



> Maybe Gordon can share more light on how it is monitored and handled currently in the greater Toronto area.


 
I can't speak authoritatively on policy. The Toronto District School Board tabled a report and is making policy following the shooting death of a student at school -- the first time this has happened in Toronto -- in 2007. That incident, like the one described in the OP, indicated that there were gaps in communication. This is a matter of public record, so I don't mind posting the content: http://www.tdsb.on.ca/_site/ViewItem.asp?siteid=9998&menuid=9956&pageid=8753

Policy aside, there needs to be an atmosphere of trust, in which students report what is going on without feeling they are "snitching." "Snitches get stitches" is a phrase known to most school children -- you and I know there's a world of difference between tattling for a reward or to curry favour and reporting on an issue that affects the safety of a child or a child's classmate. Unfortunately, a gangsta wannabe culture has permeated our children's consciousness, and they have trouble making that important distinction.

Schools and parents have to work on this together. It's very hard for parents to hear that their child has bullied another. It is even more frustrating for parents whose children have been bullied. Without going into specifics, I've learned from my colleagues to be astute to changes in attitude or behaviour and to be aware of any little personal information about a student that might be floating around. Even the most benign info about a student can become an instrument of torment. In the facebook/text message world, it spreads like wildfire, gets twisted around, and sticks around for years.

As parents, we just flat out have to learn to say, "No," to our kids. No, you can't watch that show. No, you can't have a facebook account. No, you can't talk to adults any old way you feel like. Kids see an awful lot of bad behaviour modeled -- look at the comments on virtually any youtube channel -- and incivil behaviour has become celebrated in our culture. 

A few thoughts for now as I ponder this thread.


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## Haakon (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> My son was being bullied a bit in grade school, and the school tried to stop it but the other kid kept it up. I signed my son up for boxing lessons, imagine my surprise when the bullying ended pretty quickly after that....sure my son got suspended once or twice, but no one ever bullied him or his friends again.



I don't doubt it, bullies are cowards at heart and even a small beating sticks with them a long time. I wasn't bullied in school, but did have the school bully try picking on me - once. It made enough of an impression on him that two years later he tried picking on my younger brother, until he found out he was my brother, that ended that bit of bullying.

A girl on a local school bus recently had some money taken from her by some other children, around $20. Her parent called the parents of the other children and one of the parents said "that will teach her not to bring money on the bus, she should have taken care of it better". It still pisses me off thinking about it! Maybe someone will take their cars and tell them the same thing. The school did nothing, the police did nothing, and the parents can't do anything or they'll get arrested.

It's tough to be a parent these days, to many absentee parents letting their children run wild (that Lord of the Flies reference was so accurate!), and too many laws/lawyers preventing involved, concerned, parents from doing what needs to be done to stop things like this.


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## Blade96 (Mar 30, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Lets be honest, some adults still bully at work. They ignore people, talk behind their backs at the very least, don't invite them when they go out for lunch with everyone else...etc. It might not be physical anymore, but i'm sure it still hurts.



People do that **** with me all the time. Even though we're all adults. I live it every day.

I try not to do it though. My most recent moment was several weeks ago now when my friend passed his Sandan test (yes I will mention him again because its a good example)  and I was standing with him and there were two white belts there too. I said to sandan I will take him out for a beer for passing his grading. Guess what? No body else did! or even invited him. FFS, passing your 3rd degree BB is a big deal! Even though the rest of em went to the bar too. So we went out and I bought him the beer. There were 2 white belts standing with us at the time I said I'd take him out. They knew me, but not Sandan very well. I didnt leave white belts out! I invited them as well. and we all went.

Cause lets face it. Its downright rude to make plans in front of people and not invite them. and people like I said still pull that **** with me all the time. I'm a total veteran when it comes to being abused.

As for bullicide (as its called now when people kill themselves cause of bullying) I've also been there. I've been a victim of death threats. I've had people threten to drive by my house and fire a rifle through it at me. I've had people try to set me on fire. I've scars on my wrists from where I cut myself. I've also attempted suicide because of it. I've been beaten up. I've suffered it all. All happened when I was an abused and terrified teen at jr high and high school. 

People who say its a part of growing up have obviously never suffered it, or else been much involved in it.

Y'know, denial aint just a river in Egypt, people!


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 30, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> People do that **** with me all the time. Even though we're all adults. I live it every day.
> 
> I try not to do it though. My most recent moment was several weeks ago now when my friend passed his Sandan test (yes I will mention him again because its a good example) and I was standing with him and there were two white belts there too. I said to sandan I will take him out for a beer for passing his grading. Guess what? No body else did! or even invited him. FFS, passing your 3rd degree BB is a big deal! Even though the rest of em went to the bar too. So we went out and I bought him the beer. There were 2 white belts standing with us at the time I said I'd take him out. They knew me, but not Sandan very well. I didnt leave white belts out! I invited them as well. and we all went.
> 
> ...


 
:asian:


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## Blade96 (Mar 30, 2010)

That's why I havent got a high school diploma. with the last bit of thinking I had left I had to save myself. I quit school in grade 10 at age 16 in 1995.

Everyone says parents need to be more involved, but how can they, when most victims - like myself - hide the abuse. and dont tell anyone. They blame themselves; they think its their fault. That happened to me as well. 

Sometime later, Reena Virk was murdered. My thoughts at that time when that case broke was 'That could have been me.'

and going to university was extremely difficult for me. School in my mind was a dirty word back in 1999. so i was absolutely terrified to go to university.

Thankfully I now have a university degree and am launched on my MA career and discovered my talent for and love for Shotokan. Its helping me become the person I never was - strong, confident, not being afraid. like I always wanted to be. 

A quote I got from a MA aikido sensei at another board is one I love: "Become strong so you need not fear others; become compassionate so that others need not fear you."

I think it fits here.


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## Ramirez (Mar 31, 2010)

I don't recall bullying at university ,  I enjoyed university much more than high school.  Maybe because to get into university you have to be at a certain level of intelligence, maturity or maybe simply because of the age where you can be tried as an adult.


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## Blade96 (Mar 31, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> I don't recall bullying at university ,  I enjoyed university much more than high school.  Maybe because to get into university you have to be at a certain level of intelligence, maturity or maybe simply because of the age where you can be tried as an adult.



I was bullied at university some, (even sexually assaulted there by a guy I fought with and got away from) but there is much less of it. There still are the jerks who make plans without inviting you and stuff though. Most recently, because I am different from the common shmuck one of my friends at the time a few years ago told me that he overheard somepeople talking about me behind my back at university and calling me an FAS person. I never had the chance to confront them and say maybe they should try reading some books before attempting to talk **** about people and about a disorder they knew absolutely nothing about because if they did they would know I don't have it. and my mother wouldnt touch so much as a little vitamin during her pregnancies with my older bro or with me. Another guy had also overheard them and told them to pretty mcuh STFU because as he said 'she isnt here to defend herself'

Some people no matter how old, are just sad. even in university. and that is the honest to god's truth. (whether you believe in god or not. lol.)


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## Carol (Mar 31, 2010)

Ramirez said:


> I don't recall bullying at university ,  I enjoyed university much more than high school.  Maybe because to get into university you have to be at a certain level of intelligence, maturity or maybe simply because of the age where you can be tried as an adult.



Or maybe it is because even uni students are still naive enough to believe they are 10 feet tall and bulletproof.   My freshman year at Berklee College of Music, an international student bullied by other international students. The student committed suicide in 1988, allegedly by jumping off the Tobin Bridge.


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## Archangel M (Mar 31, 2010)

School administrators have no spines. They are so afraid to lawsuits and appearing "not politically correct" that the bury their heads in the sand and brush this stuff off as "kid stuff".

There was bullying in my day too, but the threat of "the paddle" by the teacher kept it in controlable check. 

I think it's tougher for girls. They never quit and they snipe and stalk all day, everywhere, on the net, in the lunch room etc. They are more "psychological terrorists" than boys seem to be. With boys it's the physical stuff that seems dominant.

I was picked on twice that I recall. After fighting with each of them (wrestling pretty much) and puttting a kids arm in a sling once I was not picked on again. Wasnt "popular" but wasn't picked on. And strange by todays standards my parents were never told of the "sling incident" and the kids parents never made a stink. Probably because a lunch monitor saw him punch me in the stomach so he "got what he deserved" according to all involved I assume.

Different times.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 31, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> School administrators have no spines. They are so afraid to lawsuits and appearing "not politically correct" that the bury their heads in the sand and brush this stuff off as "kid stuff".


 
I'm sure there are admins who put their head in the sand. With all due respect, I would suggest these are the ones facing the lawsuits. If I were an admin, I'd rather get sued for raising the issue that one kid bullied another, then get sued for not having responded.



> I was picked on twice that I recall. After fighting with each of them (wrestling pretty much) and puttting a kids arm in a sling once I was not picked on again. Wasnt "popular" but wasn't picked on. And strange by todays standards my parents were never told of the "sling incident" and the kids parents never made a stink. Probably because a lunch monitor saw him punch me in the stomach so he "got what he deserved" according to all involved I assume.
> 
> Different times.



I totally hear you on this, and I wrestle with this all the time as a parent and a teacher. I fought back too. My worry nowadays is that it doesn't end with a one-on-one fight between two students. The next day someone comes back with a weapon or a group of friends. I had this discussion with my son many times when he was in high school. There had been a fatal stabbing of a students in front of a restaurant adjacent to his school. My son, now twenty, is heck of a fighter and Kali practitioner, but he operated on the assumption that anyone he might get into a conflict with could be carrying -- a wise precaution -- and just avoided trouble as best he could.

I have to confess the day he graduated from high school, I was relieved.


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## Joab (Mar 31, 2010)

Yeah, I was bullied as well, and my heart goes out to this girl and her family. I think there is a larger question that the media has focused upon which had been ignored in this thread, which is should bullying be illegal, should the bullies be prosecuted? That is in fact what is happening, the bullies are being prosecuted for their harrassement and stalking, and two boys have been charged with statuatory rape.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 31, 2010)

Joab said:


> Yeah, I was bullied as well, and my heart goes out to this girl and her family. I think there is a larger question that the media has focused upon which had been ignored in this thread, which is should bullying be illegal, should the bullies be prosecuted? That is in fact what is happening, the bullies are being prosecuted for their hasrrassement and stalking, and two boys have been charged with statuatory rape.


 
I understand what it is you're saying but then we need to get into a definition of bullying. 

If I don't invite you for lunch with our friends is that bullying or a slip up on my part? or did you piss me off that morning? 

For the women, as someone here pointed out, its more mind games. 
If I hurt your feelings, is that bullying?

Again I understand, but i just don't know how you could ever do it.


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## Joab (Mar 31, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I understand what it is you're saying but then we need to get into a definition of bullying.
> 
> If I don't invite you for lunch with our friends is that bullying or a slip up on my part? or did you piss me off that morning?
> 
> ...


 
What was going on with this girl was far beyond what your describing! I agree that a definition is in order, and certainly the extent of the bullying considered. Prosecuters believe this was so extreme it constituted illegal actions. She was harrassed rather severely, stalked, statuatory raped. Read the original post's link for details.

To be honest, I had similiar things done to me in junior high school, I'm sympathetic to what the prosecuters are doing.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 31, 2010)

Joab said:


> Yeah, I was bullied as well, and my heart goes out to this girl and her family. I think there is a larger question that the media has focused upon which had been ignored in this thread, which is should bullying be illegal, should the bullies be prosecuted? That is in fact what is happening, the bullies are being prosecuted for their harrassement and stalking, and two boys have been charged with statuatory rape.



Interesting that you put it that way. I noted the charges in the case. If the story is being reported accurately -- headline notwithstanding -- this has progressed far beyond bullying. If someone is being criminally harassed, stalked and all the rest, it's not simple bullying.


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## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Parents need to be involved in their childrens lives, that's their job.
> 
> If they are the parents of bullies, they need to nip it in the bud as early as possible and reform the behaviour. If they are the parents of the victim they need to be positive to their kids, ride the schools ***, contact the bullies parents, get them into self defence, essentially whatever is necessary to stop the **** from happening again.
> 
> I don't know why so many people still think that being bullied is part of growing up, its not.



Sorry, but bullying and being bullied is a part of growing up and a part of life.  For whatever reason, it appears that we're wired to single out and attack those that are different -- and if there's not an obvious difference, we'll invent one.  Most of us have experienced being bullied, even if it's as mild as being pinched for not wearing green on St. Patrick's Day.  And most of us have bullied, too, in a similar fashion.

Recognizing that it goes on is not the same as condoning it -- especially as bullying reaches extremes.  There's quite a bit clearly not being told in this account; stat rape and stalking charges are not lightly made, especially when the suspects are also juveniles.  When bullying moves from occasional or sporadic incidents, victims need to be able to report it -- and teachers, staff, or management (yes, bullying still happens with adults, as several accounts above have demonstrated) need to respond.

Zero tolerance policies, "bully awareness weeks", and the like are not really that effective; they tend to ignore the root causes, and they treat offenders and victims the same.  Teaching and modeling compassion and mutual respect goes a lot further -- as does responding directly to the problem.  We've got some parents today that are afraid to discipline their kids because the kids will call the cops!  You want a shocked look -- you oughta see the kid who was sure that, because Mommy dared to spank him, he called the cops... and had the cops ask what he did wrong, and tell him he ought to be grounded, too.  Yeah -- a lot of cops do understand the difference between parental discipline and child abuse.


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2010)

Archangel M said:


> School administrators have no spines. They are so afraid to lawsuits and appearing "not politically correct" that the bury their heads in the sand and brush this stuff off as "kid stuff".


 
And why they do this amazes me.  Lets see....if I had the choice of doing something and having to answer to my actions, vs. not doing something, having some kid kill themselves, and having to answer to my actions, it doesn't take my thought for me to pick what I'd do.   If they're questioned as to why they suspended a kid, then they should have the balls to tell the dumbass parents of the punk kid, that it was HIS actions that were a result of the suspension.  Its all about the paper trail. 





> I was picked on twice that I recall. After fighting with each of them (wrestling pretty much) and puttting a kids arm in a sling once I was not picked on again. Wasnt "popular" but wasn't picked on. And strange by todays standards my parents were never told of the "sling incident" and the kids parents never made a stink. Probably because a lunch monitor saw him punch me in the stomach so he "got what he deserved" according to all involved I assume.
> 
> Different times.


 
Sadly, this is what it comes to.  The kid has to stand up to the punk to make the problem end.  Fortunately, I always had the backing of my parents....providing that I was not to blame for anything.


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## xJOHNx (Mar 31, 2010)

grydth said:


> You know, Ken, I think the bullies learn a lot of the bad behavior *at home*. One of the bad kids I mentioned earlier - turns out she was regularly beaten by her nutty father; mom never did anything about it.
> 
> Problem is, as a society we then let the products of this ysfunction wreak havoc on others outside the home.
> 
> We do need to reinforce with our kids that they can come to us and that suicide is never the answer.



The cycle of frustration always has to start somewhere, as well as end somewhere.
Like when you are angry, you kick your cat. Your cat is frustrated so it goes out and kills a mouse for fun. The cycle ended with grief.

Same goes with children who are nothing more but a white page, where people leave their desires, hopes as well as frustrations on. Bullies are nothing more but echoes of the words written on their page.

I never bullied, nor did any of my brothers. We had a decent upbringing.

I'm currently at university and even here there are bullies.

Apart from that: signing your kids up for a martial art is one of the best thing you can do. It also prevents fatty disease.


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## Blade96 (Mar 31, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Sorry, but bullying and being bullied is a part of growing up and a part of life.  For whatever reason, it appears that we're wired to single out and attack those that are different -- and if there's not an obvious difference, we'll invent one.



I agree that it is normal when growing up to be a bit wary of people you dont know, or people who are different.

It is not a normal part of growing up to seek out the person who is different, stalk them, and actively persecute them, sometimes to the point of creating insanity in the victim or even suicide.

Sorry, I dont think stalking and etc is a normal human instinct.

People invented something different in my case. I was not all that different tbh...I liked all the  normal things that teens liked at that age, even the new kids on the block when i was 12 and 13 (lol, don't laugh) plus I was sporty and very into hockey. (In fact the guys who thought I'd pick players for a RP hockey team because they were good looking - the sexist attitude - were quite impressed when they found out how good my hockey knowledge was.)

So you are right again when you say sometimes evil people will invent reasons. I still dont know why to this day I was bullied.


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## Ken Morgan (Mar 31, 2010)

http://www.slate.com/id/2249424/


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## MJS (Mar 31, 2010)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36122394/ns/health/

If we're lucky, the people involved will be heading up the river.


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## Steve (Apr 1, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I agree that it is normal when growing up to be a bit wary of people you dont know, or people who are different.
> 
> It is not a normal part of growing up to seek out the person who is different, stalk them, and actively persecute them, sometimes to the point of creating insanity in the victim or even suicide.
> 
> ...


Bullying and stalking are two different things.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 1, 2010)

I really don't have anything to add to the topic that hasn't already been covered.  Clearly, some teasing is part of growing up, and parents shouldn't teach their kids to be super-sensitive, but bullying to this extent...which apparently is more common than I thought...goes well past the line of "just being kids".  

I recall an interview of one of the creators of South Park regarding Columbine, in which he said that high schoolers who are considering such drastic action need to realize that it'll be over in a few short years.  I hope such a message reaches victims of bullying so less tragic suicides like this one occur.


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## searcher (Apr 1, 2010)

Being bullied is why I started Hawaiian Kenpo.     I was constantly being beaten by the same 3-5 guys on a daily basis.     I was driven by the desire to get back at the ones who were hurting me.      I never went after the guys, but I wish at times I would have.

My heart goes out to the girl and her friends and family.     

Should bullying be illegal?     Yes, but it does need to be difined as to what is and what is not actually bullying.


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## MJS (Apr 5, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Sorry, but bullying and being bullied is a part of growing up and a part of life. For whatever reason, it appears that we're wired to single out and attack those that are different -- and if there's not an obvious difference, we'll invent one. Most of us have experienced being bullied, even if it's as mild as being pinched for not wearing green on St. Patrick's Day. And most of us have bullied, too, in a similar fashion.
> 
> Recognizing that it goes on is not the same as condoning it -- especially as bullying reaches extremes. There's quite a bit clearly not being told in this account; stat rape and stalking charges are not lightly made, especially when the suspects are also juveniles. When bullying moves from occasional or sporadic incidents, victims need to be able to report it -- and teachers, staff, or management (yes, bullying still happens with adults, as several accounts above have demonstrated) need to respond.
> 
> Zero tolerance policies, "bully awareness weeks", and the like are not really that effective; they tend to ignore the root causes, and they treat offenders and victims the same. Teaching and modeling compassion and mutual respect goes a lot further -- as does responding directly to the problem. We've got some parents today that are afraid to discipline their kids because the kids will call the cops! You want a shocked look -- you oughta see the kid who was sure that, because Mommy dared to spank him, he called the cops... and had the cops ask what he did wrong, and tell him he ought to be grounded, too. Yeah -- a lot of cops do understand the difference between parental discipline and child abuse.


 


Blade96 said:


> I agree that it is normal when growing up to be a bit wary of people you dont know, or people who are different.
> 
> It is not a normal part of growing up to seek out the person who is different, stalk them, and actively persecute them, sometimes to the point of creating insanity in the victim or even suicide.
> 
> ...


 
I have to wonder....does the level of the bullying, determine whether or not a child will be driven to kill themselves or will it depend on the person?  I mean, I was picked on, but I never had so much disgust that I felt like taking my life.  

On the other hand, is it a part of life?  I mean, if we say that it is, then technically, abusing your wife or husband is part of being married.  In all of the years that I've been married, I've never abused my wife, nor has she abused me.  I doubt that every kid in the world is a victim of bullies, just like I doubt that every marriage results in abuse.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 5, 2010)

A very important last paragraph there, *MJS*.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> On the other hand, is it a part of life? I mean, if we say that it is, then technically, abusing your wife or husband is part of being married. In all of the years that I've been married, I've never abused my wife, nor has she abused me. I doubt that every kid in the world is a victim of bullies, just like I doubt that every marriage results in abuse.





Sukerkin said:


> A very important last paragraph there, *MJS*.



Agreed, Suke. I must say, I'm a bit disconcerted to hear 'bullying is a part of life' as an argument. I think it's important to understand that bullying -- as defined by educators and psychologists -- is persistent. In other words, we're not talking about a kid getting picked on on any given day. We're talking about a pattern of behaviour.

Consider also, please, some kids who are typically targeted for bullying: Spec Ed kids, ESL kids, kids who are poor at sports... I see this all as very predatory and quite sickening.


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## Steve (Apr 5, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> Agreed, Suke. I must say, I'm a bit disconcerted to hear 'bullying is a part of life' as an argument. I think it's important to understand that bullying -- as defined by educators and psychologists -- is persistent. In other words, we're not talking about a kid getting picked on on any given day. We're talking about a pattern of behaviour.
> 
> Consider also, please, some kids who are typically targeted for bullying: Spec Ed kids, ESL kids, kids who are poor at sports... I see this all as very predatory and quite sickening.


I still think that the general perspective here as well as in society at large is only addressing half the story.  Kids who bully are often bullied themselves, and when they aren't, there are often specific, _addressable_, things in their lives that are leading to their behavior.  Whether it's insecurity, an overreaction to being bullied themselves, a sign of abuse at home or whatever, I think that it's a shame that society gives up on these kids.  We write them off as being bullies, while we spend all of our energy helping the bullied.  As far as I'm concerned, they're all kids who need our help.

Sometimes, just as getting a victim of bullying into MA is the best thing, I've seen kids who get into MA or some other constructive outlet really find that they've lost any of their impetus to bully.


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## jks9199 (Apr 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> I have to wonder....does the level of the bullying, determine whether or not a child will be driven to kill themselves or will it depend on the person?  I mean, I was picked on, but I never had so much disgust that I felt like taking my life.
> 
> On the other hand, is it a part of life?  I mean, if we say that it is, then technically, abusing your wife or husband is part of being married.  In all of the years that I've been married, I've never abused my wife, nor has she abused me.  I doubt that every kid in the world is a victim of bullies, just like I doubt that every marriage results in abuse.


Two different issues there, MJS.  A lot definitely depends on definitions -- and the definition of bullying is much less clear than that of domestic abuse.

How someone reacts to bullying events will depend on the person along with the bullying behavior in question.  Consider that some of the things that a Rat at VMI or a plebe at one of the service academies goes through could easily be labeled hazing at a normal college.  Same thing with fraternity pledge stunts...  Or pranks played on a rookie officer.

Most people will let those things roll off their backs; suck it and make it through.  Maybe revisit it on the next crop...  A few have major problems coming out of it.  Same thing with a lot of stuff... but then you get a kid who gets shunned at a time when they're feeling a little more vulnerable... or that isn't getting support at home or elsewhere... and you get a tragic outcome, whether it's a suicide, or a mass shooting event or something else.

Domestic abuse comes from a different place and is a different phenomenon.  And it's even more complex.


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## Carol (Apr 5, 2010)

I was bullied until I high school.  I had leg braces on my legs for awhile, I was profoundly bad at sports, and my communication skills were not very good.  To top things off, I was brilliant academically.   I swear I had a permanent "kick the nerd" sign on me for the longest time.

Things changed in high school because my dad took a transfer out of the northeast.  We landed in the Chicago area and I went to a high school that was big enough for me to hide.  I was excused from gym class because of bad asthma, my phys ed consisted of cardio and strength training in a class led by the school's trainer.  It was here where I developed my love of swimming.   I also took up the guitar, which saved me in more ways than one.  It helped me develop my own identity...outside of school, church, family, whatever.  It was my thing to do, and I could do this in an environment where no one around me knew the reasons I was bullied.  Within a couple of years I had broken out of my lifelong introversion and developed a quick wit, and sometimes even a mouth that got me in to a little bit of trouble.

Bottom line...no, bullying is not part of life.  Having classmates that don't like you or that can be social snits is part of life.  Bullying is not.


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## MJS (Apr 6, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Two different issues there, MJS. A lot definitely depends on definitions -- and the definition of bullying is much less clear than that of domestic abuse.


 
I guess I was looking at it from this point of view: Both cases can and often do include verbal, mental and physical abuse. While the main difference is the fact that a husband and wife live together, while the kids in school do not, the forms of abuse are the same or very close to the same. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullying#Hazing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_abuse

Not 100% the same, but similar.



> How someone reacts to bullying events will depend on the person along with the bullying behavior in question. Consider that some of the things that a Rat at VMI or a plebe at one of the service academies goes through could easily be labeled hazing at a normal college. Same thing with fraternity pledge stunts... Or pranks played on a rookie officer.
> 
> Most people will let those things roll off their backs; suck it and make it through. Maybe revisit it on the next crop... A few have major problems coming out of it. Same thing with a lot of stuff... but then you get a kid who gets shunned at a time when they're feeling a little more vulnerable... or that isn't getting support at home or elsewhere... and you get a tragic outcome, whether it's a suicide, or a mass shooting event or something else.


 
I think its safe to say that everyone breaks their friends or co-workers chops every now and then.  Unfortunately, some people do not know when to draw the line, and IMHO, that line seperates the joking around, from the bullying.  Even the friendly kidding can get old after a while, and there has been more than 1 time, when I've made it clear to a coworker that they're very close to crossing that line.  Needless to say, it usually ends.


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## jks9199 (Apr 6, 2010)

MJS said:


> I think its safe to say that everyone breaks their friends or co-workers chops every now and then.  Unfortunately, some people do not know when to draw the line, and IMHO, that line seperates the joking around, from the bullying.  Even the friendly kidding can get old after a while, and there has been more than 1 time, when I've made it clear to a coworker that they're very close to crossing that line.  Needless to say, it usually ends.



And that's the thing...  joking around, even if it's hitting below the belt, ends when it stops being fun. 

Bullying doesn't.  And, for kids today, they have fewer escapes than they once did...  When I was kid, crap at school generally ended when the school day ended.  Maybe someone lived in your neighborhood, but generally the school crap stopped with the closing bell.  Today, with Facebook, MySpace, and all the rest of the social networking and on-line gaming, along with parents who have hovered over the kids and protected them more than in the past... the lines have blurred.

Again, I think some bullying is a fact of life.  And people have to learn the personal resiliency to overcome it, learn ways to escape or deflect it, or have the personal integrity to stand up and tell 'em to knock it off.  But when it crosses a line of persistence or intensity -- then it needs to be stopped by those in authority.  Who have the duty to be aware enough to realize when it's going on...  Because some times, the people doing the worst are also the ones who have the most favorable public face.


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## harlan (Apr 6, 2010)

Yes, it is a fact of life. And it's time to change it.

This death occurred about two towns over from me, and it's 'all the talk' - locally, state-wide, and nationally. But it's nothing new, and persists because the country doesn't acknowledge that it's a larger, societal issue, and work to dismantle it (not just a local problem). Fact is, kids don't snitch because the mob mentality and gang culture thrives in our schools and they don't have the means or desire to protect kids that come forth. Kids don't tell parents because parents will bring it to the school, and that's where the problem is. The internet has added a pernicious aspect of networking, and 'the school' really isn't just a geographical space anymore; regularly, my own child has had to worry about people from other towns that never even set foot on her school grounds. So, while 'the school' may be a nexus, the problem is distributed, networked, and compounded by the internet. I'm certain a federal law somewhere must be involved.

It's the same at the workplace, and can exist anywhere where whistleblowers can't be guaranteed safety. We even have a bill in the Massachusetts house, addressing workplace bullying, that last I heard had stalled.


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## CoryKS (Apr 6, 2010)

> Yes yes yes, there it was. Youth must go, ah yes. But youth is only being in a way like it might be an animal. No, it is not just being an animal so much as being like one of these malenky toys you viddy being sold in the streets, like little chellovecks made out of tin and with a spring inside and then a winding handle on the outside and you wind it up grrr grrr grrr and off it itties, like walking, O my brothers. But it itties in a straight line and bangs straight into things bang bang and it cannot help what it is doing. Being young is like being like one of these malenky machines.
> 
> My son, my son. When I had my son I would explain all that to him when he was starry enough to like understand. But then I knew he would not understand or would not want to understand at all and would do all the veshches I had done, yes perhaps even killing some poor starry forella surrounded with mewing kots and koshkas, and I would not be able to really stop him. And nor would he be able to stop his own son, brothers. And so it would itty on to like the end of the world, round and round and round, like some bolshy gigantic like chelloveck, like old Bog Himself (by courtesy of Korova Milkbar) turning and turning and turning a vonny grahzny orange in his gigantic rookers.




http://pagesperso-orange.fr/chabrieres/texts/clockwork_orange.html
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/clockworkorange/terms.html


"Every generation, Western civilization is invaded by barbarians; we call them "Children." 
- Hannah Arendt


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## Drac (Apr 6, 2010)

I was bullied alot althrough Jr and Sr High..Most of it came from the " jocks" and not alot was done about it because they were the stars of whatever sports team they were on..It was put down to them being high spirited avarage youth, it was said in such a way to make me feel I was below average..Then these same butt holes will send you an invite to attend the HS reunion walk up and shake your hand and give you a hug..


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## zDom (Apr 6, 2010)

(stands up)

Hi. My name is zDom, and I was a victim of bullying ...

I won't even start. I could  probably SHOULD, and actually might  write a BOOK on the things I've experienced on this subject.

I was a bully magnet. Moved well over a dozen times growing up. A different school for 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th, 11th and 12th grade.

Yea.. don't get me started 

Part of the problem is the kids. Part of the problem is their parents. A big part of the problem is the adults in school who turn a blind eye, punish the victim and the bully equally, downplay the seriousness of the issue ....

I'll stop now.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 6, 2010)

Aye, I am sensing a commonality of experience here.  

I was unlucky enough to be too bright, too religious and late in starting to grow out as well as up.  I was lucky enough to be aggressively spirited and had had discipline drummed into me.  

So when the bullies started in on me (inevitably), I would not fight because my father had told me not to but neither would I run.  I just kept getting back up when they knocked me down.

After a while, word got around that I was not a coward (even tho they could not understand why I wouldn't fight back) and my classmates started to look out for me a bit, which made those early years survivable without breaking my word to my father.

Being too clever had its price in the later years tho and I never really 'fitted in' until after the five years of manditory secondary schooling were over (11 to 16).  As has been noted before in this thread, emotional/psychological bullying is worse than the physical.  I could take being punched, being left out of things hurt much more.  That experience is why I never brush off someones experience of such things as trivial.  They *do* sound suoerficial but a broken nose heals much easier.


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## MJS (Apr 6, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> And that's the thing... joking around, even if it's hitting below the belt, ends when it stops being fun.
> 
> Bullying doesn't. And, for kids today, they have fewer escapes than they once did... When I was kid, crap at school generally ended when the school day ended. Maybe someone lived in your neighborhood, but generally the school crap stopped with the closing bell. Today, with Facebook, MySpace, and all the rest of the social networking and on-line gaming, along with parents who have hovered over the kids and protected them more than in the past... the lines have blurred.
> 
> Again, I think some bullying is a fact of life. And people have to learn the personal resiliency to overcome it, learn ways to escape or deflect it, or have the personal integrity to stand up and tell 'em to knock it off. But when it crosses a line of persistence or intensity -- then it needs to be stopped by those in authority. Who have the duty to be aware enough to realize when it's going on... Because some times, the people doing the worst are also the ones who have the most favorable public face.


 
Same when I was in school...when the day ended, so did the BS.  I never heard of what you hear of today, ie: the bullying expanding to the cyber world.  While these things do happen, I do not feel that they should have to be tolorated.  Kids go to school to learn, in a specific environment.  It is the schools job to provide that environment.  While the school may not be able to do anything beyond the walls of the school, meaning the cyber world, the police should take care of that issue.  

Part of life or not, a child may not have the 'thick skin' that an adult does.  Then again, how many times have we heard about people coming to their place of employment with a gun?  Happens all the time.  

Its just a shame that a young life was taken, because of the actions of a bunch of punks.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 6, 2010)

Nothing to say in response to that singular truth other than "Word!".


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## jks9199 (Apr 6, 2010)

Something else that's occurred to me on this issue...

I wonder how much of people's opinions and views on this are shaped by their age, or more specifically by when they grew up?  And I'm not trying to suggest that younger people are softer, or that bullying was less intense at different points... but times were different.  Behaviors and attitudes that were accepted in the late 70s and 80s when I was growing aren't acceptable today...  (Some of that's for the better; some of it I'm not so sure about, and some of it's definitely for the worse.)


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## Blade96 (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Bullying and stalking are two different things.



Stalking can be a part of bullying. As an example, I was stalked when i was bullied.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Stalking can be a part of bullying. As an example, I was stalked when i was bullied.


I don't want to be argumentative, but I disagree.  Stalking and bullying can happen at the same time, but they aren't the same.  One can be stalked without being bullied or vice versa.  I also think that stalking is a much, much more serious issue than your standard bullying.  Not to make light of bullying, but like harassment and assault, when bullying progresses to stalking you're now talking about something other than simple bullying.  

Pizza and beer are often associated with each other, but many people enjoy pizza without beer, although I'm not sure how.


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## Blade96 (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I don't want to be argumentative, but I disagree.  Stalking and bullying can happen at the same time, but they aren't the same.  One can be stalked without being bullied or vice versa.  I also think that stalking is a much, much more serious issue than your standard bullying.  Not to make light of bullying, but like harassment and assault, when bullying progresses to stalking you're now talking about something other than simple bullying.
> 
> Pizza and beer are often associated with each other, but many people enjoy pizza without beer, although I'm not sure how.



You must be talking about relatively lighter versions of bullying than my experiences then.

From the website olweus.org
*"A person is bullied when he or she is exposed, repeatedly  and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other  persons, and he or she has difficulty defending himself or herself."* ​  This definition includes three important components:  
  1. Bullying is aggressive  behavior that involves unwanted, negative actions.
2. Bullying involves a pattern  of behavior repeated over time.
3. Bullying involves an  imbalance of power or strength.


Stalking can most definitely be a part of this. It is a negative action done with evil intent. Stalking can be a form of bullying.


Imo anyway.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> You must be talking about relatively lighter versions of bullying than my experiences then.
> 
> From the website olweus.org
> *"A person is bullied when he or she is exposed, repeatedly  and over time, to negative actions on the part of one or more other  persons, and he or she has difficulty defending himself or herself."* ​  This definition includes three important components:
> ...


  But it's not stalking.


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## bekkilyn (Apr 6, 2010)

I was bullied from second grade on up through Jr. high school. The same people were in school with me all of those years and I thought they would eventually grow out of the second grade mindset, but they didn't. I'd been told to ignore them, but of course that never worked. I couldn't physically try to fight them because the bullying wasn't physical except once in elementary school when one kid punched me in the stomach and tried to push me down the stairs. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out if the problem was me or them.

For tenth grade, I had the opportunity to change schools by entering a magnet program and I jumped at the chance. So I was going to school with all new people and there was no more bullying, at least for me. Problem solved.

Interestingly, I read an online local news article this morning and it seems like one of the kids who bullied me back then is now being charged with suspected child abuse.


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## Blade96 (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> But it's not stalking.



No. its not THE same. I just said stalking someone can be a way of bullying them. thats all.


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## MJS (Apr 7, 2010)

Gee, why am I not surprised at this.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36191902/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Stalking can most definitely be a part of this. It is a negative action done with evil intent. Stalking can be a form of bullying.
> 
> 
> Imo anyway.



I think the problem here is the very reason why the story is hot. It's got the word, "bully," in the title, which brings eyeballs to print. Put "bully" and "death" or "suicide" together, and you've got a story with legs.

As I said somewhere above, if the charges are supported by the evidence, the line between schoolyard bully and criminal predator was crossed quite aways back. You give bullies detentions and supensions and remediation; they don't go to prison.


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## harlan (Apr 8, 2010)

Bump

Posted this elswhere, but wanted to be sure it was read. 

http://onlyintherepublicofamherst.blogspot.com/2010/04/gus-sayer-just-go-i-dont-care-how-just.html


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## MJS (Apr 8, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Something else that's occurred to me on this issue...
> 
> I wonder how much of people's opinions and views on this are shaped by their age, or more specifically by when they grew up? And I'm not trying to suggest that younger people are softer, or that bullying was less intense at different points... but times were different. Behaviors and attitudes that were accepted in the late 70s and 80s when I was growing aren't acceptable today... (Some of that's for the better; some of it I'm not so sure about, and some of it's definitely for the worse.)


 
IMO, I'd find it hard to believe that if this incident happened in the 70s, that it would be viewed as an "Oh well, she was bullied, and ended up killing herself.  Kids'll be kids." attitude.  Again, I may be wrong, but IMO, it'd take a pretty cold hearted person to view death as a casual thing.


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## BlueDragon1981 (Apr 9, 2010)

I know this happened a little while back and I haven't really read through all the posts on here. Here is my 2 cents worth.

From what I have heard from previous generations is that there has always been bullies. The degree is very arguable. I don't there is more today but a change in the reaction to it. In some ways the bullies have to "top" what they have heard of being done in the past. Sounds malicious and it is. So with those two changes the bulling has changed its face. The number of instances may not have changed. Also the reaction from the media in the past was probably very much different than today. In the end it comes down to some societal changes rather than if it has increased or decreased through the years.

Another item surfacing is the use of technology to bully someone. This is a rather new phenomenon as far as cell phones and social networks (one could always argue those with tech have bullied others when it comes to Politics/war type situations but that is not the tech I'm talking about). With the addition to this the bullies can now bully them after they leave school. There is one big difference. The people getting bullied just can't get away from it.

Now if kids are losing morals or not is a question I can't answer. I see many who are good kids. However with media coverage increasing I also hear of more cases of problems. One example was the school shootings there were some before Colinbine but they weren't as televised. Then it seemed as though they were always televised after that. Sometime putting information out there is not all that helpful.

All I can do is teach my kids that they don't have to put up with bullies but also that they don't have to let them ruin their lives. I often tell them a bully is just looking for help in some way too. 

This kind of thing does make me discussed but life has many disgusting things. Maybe my small town life has paid dividends on the moral end.


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## jks9199 (Apr 9, 2010)

MJS said:


> IMO, I'd find it hard to believe that if this  incident happened in the 70s, that it would be viewed as an "Oh well,  she was bullied, and ended up killing herself.  Kids'll be kids."  attitude.  Again, I may be wrong, but IMO, it'd take a pretty cold  hearted person to view death as a casual thing.



I wasn't clear; I wasn't at all suggesting that the girl's death was anything but a tragedy.  I was looking more at the general issue of bullying, and what constitutes bullying and how to respond to it.


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## MJS (Apr 14, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> I wasn't clear; I wasn't at all suggesting that the girl's death was anything but a tragedy. I was looking more at the general issue of bullying, and what constitutes bullying and how to respond to it.


 
I'm wondering if perhaps, a) the school needs training on how to recognize signs of bullying, b) parents need training on how to recognize signs of bullying and c) the child thats being bullied, needs to understand that its ok to talk to an adult about the situation.  Its possible that some kids may feel intimidated to talk to anyone, out of fear that if they do, there will be more hell to pay, from the bully.


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## MJS (Apr 20, 2010)

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20361466,00.html

Guess that old saying, "What goes around, comes around." really is true.  Now, I know, I'm sure some people may be thinking, "Well, the people that're making these threats, are no better than the kids." and ya know what, thats correct.  If we get technical about it, in some form, that is bullying too.  Of course, on the flip side, sometimes that wake up call, comes in the form of getting a taste of your own medicine.  

Perhaps now, these kids and others that can't go a day without bullying someone, will wake up, and realize that their actions are wrong.


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## Drac (Apr 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> Its possible that some kids may feel intimidated to talk to anyone, out of fear that if they do, there will be more hell to pay, from the bully.


 
Yes, when I reported it to a teacher the bully was spoken to and I got it worst the next time..


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## MJS (Apr 23, 2010)

http://www.middletownpress.com/articles/2010/04/23/news/doc4bd105b084eeb714648504.txt

This happened in the city that I work in.  Its a shame that the school system, doens't have the balls to step and do their job....provide a safe environment in which to learn in!!!  Of course, I'm not saying the kid was right in bringing the knife, but again, damned if ya do, damned if ya dont.  And whats worse, is no doubt, the punks are laughing all the way to the bank on this one.  Not only did they torment this kid, but he ended up suspended.

This is why I always say to my wife and family, that if we ever decided to have kids, not only would I have their back 110%, providing they were not in the wrong, but if they're going to run the risk of getting in trouble, may as well go out with a bang.  Someone picks on you, you address it with the teacher, the principal, nothing gets done, then fight back.  If it means beating the **** out of the person thats bullying you, then so be it.  The school was given fair warning to do something.


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## eggg1994 (Dec 12, 2010)

well that just ticks me off when a 15 year old girl kills herself because of bullying and what i don't like is that teachers turn a blind eye on bullying and just say the old saying kids will be kids. they also say just ignore it or you need to toughen up. now bullying has gotten worse because of technology and texting which they can even torment their victums at home. i think the victim should be placed in martial arts to combat bullying and to learn how to deal with it. you know too many people say well martial arts is just going to make my kid more aggressive well it does the oppisite you know. the problem is now there are zero tolarance policys that prevent them from defending themselves which i am really against. i just think kids should be in more martial arts then that team sports crap which does not prepare them for self defence.


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