# Karate or ju jitsu



## cliveanstey (Feb 6, 2017)

I am currently training in kickboxing and am about a year away from my black belt. I am now free on a Thursday night for training.  And was thinking of starting something more traditional. There is 2 local schools 1st is fudoshin ju jitsu and the 2nd is kobe osaka karate.  I want the best in self defense to cross train my kickboxing. What do you think?  


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## Paul_D (Feb 6, 2017)

Without nowing anything about either of them, I would imagine karate would cover a lot of the striking already covered in your kickboxing, where as the Ju-Jitsu is more likely to cover things not coved in your kickboxing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Without nowing anything about either of them, I would imagine karate would cover a lot of the striking already covered in your kickboxing, where as the Ju-Jitsu is more likely to cover things not coved in your kickboxing.


I'd agree with this. If the OP wants to polish his striking and add some new tools to his striking toolkit, the Karate might be a fit. If he wants to expand his toolkit more broadly, the Ju-Jitsu will be more useful there.

To the OP: What will matter more is whether you like the training. Visit both schools, talk to the instructors, watch a class or two, get on the mats if you can without paying, and pick the one that looks more interesting to you.


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## Headhunter (Feb 6, 2017)

I know a lot will say you already do kickboxing so you know striking so doing karate would be pointless but there's a lot of strikes in karate that aren't in kickboxing but it's more up to you and what you want. You may hate grappling and if that's the case there's no point training it


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 6, 2017)

I didn't know kickboxing had a belt system, anyway I would take up the Jiu Jitsu since taking karate will basically just show you a different flavor of what you already been doing.

Jiu Jitsu would be an entirely new experience for you.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 6, 2017)

cliveanstey said:


> I am currently training in kickboxing and am about a year away from my black belt. I am now free on a Thursday night for training.  And was thinking of starting something more traditional. There is 2 local schools 1st is fudoshin ju jitsu and the 2nd is kobe osaka karate.  I want the best in self defense to cross train my kickboxing. What do you think?



Well, it's really going to depend on what you want... and what you expect. You talk about doing something more traditional, then talk about the best in self defence... those aren't often found in the one location, and are rather different approaches. In addition, you'd need to define what you mean by "traditional"... the karate system is an off-shoot of Tani-ha Shito Ryu Shukokai Karate-do... which was founded by Tani Sensei with a focus on training methods and adaptations to performance specifically to win tournaments (it's my old system, for the record). Fudoshin Jujitsu is a modern, Western, Judo-based system of "jujitsu"... not what I would class as traditional, and something I'd only think of as "jujitsu" in name alone... without getting into the same old conversation of the inaccurate spelling itself... 

At the end of the day, though, it will come down to which school appeals to you more... which is as much the instructor, the class schedule, the other students, the fee structure, and so on as it is the actual system taught there. If you are after something more specific, though, if you let us know where you are (approximately), then we might be able to suggest or locate something you hadn't considered.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 6, 2017)

Although a black belt amounts to not much. Maybe just keep training. No offense intended.


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## lamanilad (Feb 19, 2017)

Hi. I don't practice anyone of them but I see karate more as a combat sports and ju-jitsu as a self defense sport. But If you practice kick boxing, karate use more legs than ju-jitsu.


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## Paul_D (Feb 19, 2017)

lamanilad said:


> Hi. I don't practice anyone of them but I see karate more as a combat sports and ju-jitsu as a self defense sport. But If you practice kick boxing, karate use more legs than ju-jitsu.


Self defence isn't a sport.


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## Headhunter (Feb 19, 2017)

lamanilad said:


> Hi. I don't practice anyone of them but I see karate more as a combat sports and ju-jitsu as a self defense sport. But If you practice kick boxing, karate use more legs than ju-jitsu.



How on earth do you work that out? Jiu jitsu especially these days seems to have way more competitions than karate does


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## Steve (Feb 19, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Self defence isn't a sport.


Self defense is whatever you want it to be.  It's a word so broadly defined, it can mean anything.   Like "traditional".


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## Steve (Feb 19, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> How on earth do you work that out? Jiu jitsu especially these days seems to have way more competitions than karate does


Jiu Jitsu or jujutsu?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2017)

Steve said:


> Jiu Jitsu or jujutsu?


Or, per the OP topic, "Ju-Jitsu". So many versions...


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Or, per the OP topic, "Ju-Jitsu". So many versions...






 

A Nazis worst nightmare.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> View attachment 20397
> 
> A Nazis worst nightmare.


I think we have officially forked this thread!


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## Ironbear24 (Feb 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think we have officially forked this thread!



Apparently that is an actual book. I am interested to see what it is about lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Apparently that is an actual book. I am interested to see what it is about lol.


If I ever actually have a permanent training space, I'm putting books like that on display.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 19, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Although a black belt amounts to not much. Maybe just keep training. No offense intended.



That would depend how and where you got it. Some schools might be belt factories but with some schools and the styles they teach it makes a big difference. To earn a BJJ black belt for instance, you aren't going to do so without putting in your time and really working hard. Earning a black belt in BJJ is to say the least admirable.


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## Buka (Feb 20, 2017)

cliveanstey said:


> I am currently training in kickboxing and am about a year away from my black belt. I am now free on a Thursday night for training.  And was thinking of starting something more traditional. There is 2 local schools 1st is fudoshin ju jitsu and the 2nd is kobe osaka karate.  I want the best in self defense to cross train my kickboxing. What do you think?
> 
> 
> Sent from my GT-I9195 using Tapatalk



Welcome to MartialTalk, cliveanstay.

When you visit both, which I'm sure you will, you'll know. Just go with your gut.


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> Apparently that is an actual book. I am interested to see what it is about lol.



It's very funny.


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## Headhunter (Feb 20, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I didn't know kickboxing had a belt system, anyway I would take up the Jiu Jitsu since taking karate will basically just show you a different flavor of what you already been doing.
> 
> Jiu Jitsu would be an entirely new experience for you.


Don't agree with that. Kickboxing has the basic punches and kicks and knees. But in karate there are a lot more moves than kickboxing. Karate has chops, palm strikes, back fists and more circular movements. Plus it has a different defence system with the blocks they use. Both are great styles but are different


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## Headhunter (Feb 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> That would depend how and where you got it. Some schools might be belt factories but with some schools and the styles they teach it makes a big difference. To earn a BJJ black belt for instance, you aren't going to do so without putting in your time and really working hard. Earning a black belt in BJJ is to say the least admirable.


There are belt factories in jiu jitsu to. Someone I know got a black belt after training for a year another got one after training for 2 years with a satellite school


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> There are belt factories in jiu jitsu to. Someone I know got a black belt after training for a year another got one after training for 2 years with a satellite school


I'm pretty confident in saying that wasn't BJJ they were training in.


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## Headhunter (Feb 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm pretty confident in saying that wasn't BJJ they were training in.



It was I've seen the certificate


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> There are belt factories in jiu jitsu to. Someone I know got a black belt after training for a year another got one after training for 2 years with a satellite school





Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm pretty confident in saying that wasn't BJJ they were training in.





Headhunter said:


> It was I've seen the certificate



If there was anyone in the world who earned a legit BJJ black belt with only a year of training, I would almost certainly know about it. It would be the talk of the BJJ community worldwide. The fastest legit BJJ black belt I know of is probably BJ Penn, who was a natural prodigy, training pretty much full time, and winning world championships - and he took 3 years.

Who is the instructor who supposedly promoted your friend to black belt in a year?


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## Headhunter (Feb 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If there was anyone in the world who earned a legit BJJ black belt with only a year of training, I would almost certainly know about it. It would be the talk of the BJJ community worldwide. The fastest legit BJJ black belt I know of is probably BJ Penn, who was a natural prodigy, training pretty much full time, and winning world championships - and he took 3 years.
> 
> Who is the instructor who supposedly promoted your friend to black belt in a year?


I think there's no doubt that it wasn't a legitimate one and I never claimed it was my point was that bjj places can still be belt factories and no I don't remember the name and I wouldn't say it here anyway as I don't want to trash anyone's reputation but I know he's a black belt under braulio estima


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If there was anyone in the world who earned a legit BJJ black belt with only a year of training, I would almost certainly know about it. It would be the talk of the BJJ community worldwide. The fastest legit BJJ black belt I know of is probably BJ Penn, who was a natural prodigy, training pretty much full time, and winning world championships - and he took 3 years.
> 
> Who is the instructor who supposedly promoted your friend to black belt in a year?


Ah, there's that word "legitimate". They probably trained in "BJJ" (with air quotes), rather than a legitimate (I dislike the word, but it's appropriate here) line of the art.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I think there's no doubt that it wasn't a legitimate one and I never claimed it was


By "legitimate", in this case I mean a BJJ rank officially awarded by someone who was qualified to do so. Typically a 2nd degree BB rank is required to promote someone to black belt in BJJ. (BJJ black belts start as "zero degrees", so a second degree black belt is normally someone who has been a black belt for at least 6 years. The promoting instructor should have a confirmed lineage going back to either Carlos/George/Helio Gracie or Luiz Franca. For example, I was promoted by Mike O'Donnell and Carlson Gracie Jr., Mike was promoted by Carlson Jr. Carlson Jr was promoted by Carlson Gracie Sr, Carlson Gracie Sr was promoted by Carlos Gracie.



Headhunter said:


> my point was that bjj places can still be belt factories



The BJJ community monitors this sort of thing pretty closely and applies a lot of pressure to maintain standards. If there was someone handing out black belts for a year of training, there would be major worldwide discussion and questions being directed towards the instructor's instructor. Unless the instructor handed the promotion out secretly I have a hard time imagining how such an event would avoid notice. Since you say you've actually seen the rank certificate, I'm not sure how it could be such a big secret.



Headhunter said:


> I don't remember the name and I wouldn't say it here anyway as I don't want to trash anyone's reputation but I know he's a black belt under braulio estima



I understand not wanting to publicly talk trash about anyone, but if you happen to remember the name, would you consider sending me a private message? I'm thinking there's a strong probability that someone here (your friend or his instructor) is showing off forged credentials. I have yet to encounter a BJJ belt factory, but fake BJJ black belts pop up periodically.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Ah, there's that word "legitimate". They probably trained in "BJJ" (with air quotes), rather than a legitimate (I dislike the word, but it's appropriate here) line of the art.


Yeah, you occasionally come across an instructor who holds a black belt in "Generic Bob's Karate Kung Fu Jutsu Do" who has a dojo, then picks up a blue belt in BJJ, advertises themselves as being a student of some legit BJJ instructor and starts offering classes in BJJ, but still wears their "Generic Bob's" black belt in all the pictures on their website (and sometimes in their BJJ classes, which is a big no-no and will get them publicly shamed). It's possible that Headhunter's friend was promoted by such a person.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, you occasionally come across an instructor who holds a black belt in "Generic Bob's Karate Kung Fu Jutsu Do" who has a dojo, then picks up a blue belt in BJJ, advertises themselves as being a student of some legit BJJ instructor and starts offering classes in BJJ, but still wears their "Generic Bob's" black belt in all the pictures on their website (and sometimes in their BJJ classes, which is a big no-no and will get them publicly shamed). It's possible that Headhunter's friend was promoted by such a person.


I hadn't even considered that possibility. It need not even be a "Bob's Generic" BB. Heck, if I took my hard-earned NGA BB and wore it while teaching BJJ (assuming I picked up the Blue you mentioned), that would be a lie. I know a guy who teaches both NGA (something-degree BB) and BJJ (currently Brown, I think). He changes belts between classes.

_Side note: I love watching him move in his NGA techniques - a clear influence of some of the "slipping" movement used in BJJ._


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I hadn't even considered that possibility. It need not even be a "Bob's Generic" BB. Heck, if I took my hard-earned NGA BB and wore it while teaching BJJ (assuming I picked up the Blue you mentioned), that would be a lie. I know a guy who teaches both NGA (something-degree BB) and BJJ (currently Brown, I think). He changes belts between classes.
> 
> _Side note: I love watching him move in his NGA techniques - a clear influence of some of the "slipping" movement used in BJJ._


Yeah, I know people who have schools and legitimate teaching ranks in other styles who added BJJ to their curriculum. To the best of my knowledge, they were very conscious to wear the appropriate belt when teaching BJJ class. Doing otherwise leads to grief.


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## JP3 (Feb 20, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Although a black belt amounts to not much. Maybe just keep training. No offense intended.


But Bill, we' would say that from our somewhat lofty (read old and moldy) perspective of many, many years and the long-ago goal of 1st dan being in the bag quite a few decades ago.  Our perspective has changed a bit from when we first went 'allokin' wouldn't you say?

Here's what I think on the O/P.  If you want to continue to work on the real polish and deeper understanding of the striking, get intot he traditional karate, if that's what it is. If however, you are wanting to cover up some holes in the game you presently have, to use a MMA term, maybe the jujutsu would be a good thing. It's all a prioritization question.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> That would depend how and where you got it. Some schools might be belt factories but with some schools and the styles they teach it makes a big difference. To earn a BJJ black belt for instance, you aren't going to do so without putting in your time and really working hard. Earning a black belt in BJJ is to say the least admirable.



Agreed.  It also doesn't represent the end of training, does it?  My suggestion was that rather than looking around for something different, in anticipation that 'black belt' represents the end of the training in any given style, it might be more advantageous to keep training in the style one has devoted so much time to.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2017)

JP3 said:


> But Bill, we' would say that from our somewhat lofty (read old and moldy) perspective of many, many years and the long-ago goal of 1st dan being in the bag quite a few decades ago.  Our perspective has changed a bit from when we first went 'allokin' wouldn't you say?
> 
> Here's what I think on the O/P.  If you want to continue to work on the real polish and deeper understanding of the striking, get intot he traditional karate, if that's what it is. If however, you are wanting to cover up some holes in the game you presently have, to use a MMA term, maybe the jujutsu would be a good thing. It's all a prioritization question.



It was merely my attempt to note the often-seen predilection of people to assume that their own training, whatever it is, is somehow lacking, and that once they have reached some basic level of competency, it is time for them to 'round out' their knowledge by becoming equally worthless in another style.  Oops, I meant 'proficient' not 'worthless'. 

My advice to such folks is to keep training.  Just keep training.


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## JP3 (Feb 20, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It was merely my attempt to note the often-seen predilection of people to assume that their own training, whatever it is, is somehow lacking, and that once they have reached some basic level of competency, it is time for them to 'round out' their knowledge by becoming equally worthless in another style.  Oops, I meant 'proficient' not 'worthless'.
> 
> My advice to such folks is to keep training.  Just keep training.



Good point and totally agree. A little knowledge can be dangerous. To oneself.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 20, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> There are belt factories in jiu jitsu to. Someone I know got a black belt after training for a year another got one after training for 2 years with a satellite school



If a school teaches Gracie Jiu Jitsu and they use the Gracie name than they aren't going to get away with being a belt factory. If a school says they teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they might or might not be the real deal although from what I've seen usually they are real but if they use the Gracie name than you know for sure they teach the real thing.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 20, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If there was anyone in the world who earned a legit BJJ black belt with only a year of training, I would almost certainly know about it. It would be the talk of the BJJ community worldwide. The fastest legit BJJ black belt I know of is probably BJ Penn, who was a natural prodigy, training pretty much full time, and winning world championships - and he took 3 years.


So another words, BJ Penn would be the Ernie Reyes Jr. of BJJ.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 20, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Agreed.  It also doesn't represent the end of training, does it?  My suggestion was that rather than looking around for something different, in anticipation that 'black belt' represents the end of the training in any given style, it might be more advantageous to keep training in the style one has devoted so much time to.



On the contrary black belt is just the beginning. I would say after earning a black belt that's when the real training begins. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder. The impression I get from the OP is that they want to keep training in kickboxing but also to cross train in other styles to get more of an overall martial arts background. After you earn a black belt in your first style it can be a time to start exploring other styles while still training in your first style or you might start exploring other styles sometime before or after earning your first black belt. To me, it sounds like the OP wants to start exploring other styles since they're getting close to earning a black belt in their first style but they want to keep training in their first style after they earn a black belt in it.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 20, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Good point and totally agree. A little knowledge can be dangerous. To oneself.


If a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, how about a lot?


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> On the contrary black belt is just the beginning. I would say after earning a black belt that's when the real training begins. After you make black belt it doesn't get easier it gets harder.



I agree.  I'm sorry if you got the impression that I didn't think exactly what you just said.



> The impression I get from the OP is that they want to keep training in kickboxing but also to cross train in other styles to get more of an overall martial arts background.



Yes, I understand that's what the OP wants.  I disagree with the OP that going after crosstraining at this stage is a very good idea.



> After you earn a black belt in your first style it can be a time to start exploring other styles while still training in your first style or you might start exploring other styles sometime before or after earning your first black belt.



It can be, but I don't think it's a good idea in general.  I think it's a good time to knuckle down and work harder in one's own style.



> To me, it sounds like the OP wants to start exploring other styles since they're getting close to earning a black belt in their first style but they want to keep training in their first style after they earn a black belt in it.



I learned how to say "Where is the bathroom" in Japanese.  Time to start learning to say it in Spanish?  A little cross-training?  Uh, no.  Time to learn some more Japanese.  Just my 2 cents.


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## JP3 (Feb 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> If a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous, how about a lot?


The beginning of wisdom is admitting one's own ignorance.

I really like that saying, I think but am not sure it's Confucious, and I think it applies here.


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## kuniggety (Feb 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> If a school teaches Gracie Jiu Jitsu and they use the Gracie name than they aren't going to get away with being a belt factory. If a school says they teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu they might or might not be the real deal although from what I've seen usually they are real but if they use the Gracie name than you know for sure they teach the real thing.



Having the Gracie name attached makes no difference as that's just one attempt at "branding BJJ". See Tony Dismukes' write up on the self policing in BJJ. BJJ might be politics galore (such as the Gracie franchising) but it does a helluva job of upholding its standards across the board with some disparity between self-defense vs sport BJJ.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 20, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Having the Gracie name attached makes no difference as that's just one attempt at "branding BJJ". See Tony Dismukes' write up on the self policing in BJJ. BJJ might be politics galore (such as the Gracie franchising) but it does a helluva job of upholding its standards across the board with some disparity between self-defense vs sport BJJ.



You are not going to use the Gracie name as part of your school's name or advertise that you teach Gracie Jiu Jitsu without the Gracie's OK or you will face a major lawsuit if you're caught doing so.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> You are not going to use the Gracie name as part of your school's name or advertise that you teach Gracie Jiu Jitsu without the Gracie's OK or you will face a major lawsuit if you're caught doing so.


You're misinformed about this. When Rorion Gracie started teaching in the U.S., he did trademark the term "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and aggressively threatened legal action against anyone else who used the term. Usually this was other members of the extended family. However the trademark was invalidated after a legal battle with Carley Gracie, who had been teaching BJJ in the States longer than Rorion had. Since then, "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" is no longer a trademark and you can't be sued for using it. However during the period when Rorion had the trademark, the community settled on the generic name "BJJ". Individual family members wanting to promote their own brand will often do so under their individual name, such as Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or Carlson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. (These names may be trademarked) By default, this means that the main people left using the "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" name are those connected to the Torrence academy, I.e. Rorion and his sons. However they no longer have any special legal rights to the name. If you want to open your own "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" academy tomorrow, then no one has standing to sue you for it. Someone might show up to beat the crap out of you in front of your students for being an unqualified fraud, but they won't have grounds to sue.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 21, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You're misinformed about this. When Rorion Gracie started teaching in the U.S., he did trademark the term "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" and aggressively threatened legal action against anyone else who used the term. Usually this was other members of the extended family. However the trademark was invalidated after a legal battle with Carley Gracie, who had been teaching BJJ in the States longer than Rorion had. Since then, "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" is no longer a trademark and you can't be sued for using it. However during the period when Rorion had the trademark, the community settled on the generic name "BJJ". Individual family members wanting to promote their own brand will often do so under their individual name, such as Renzo Gracie Jiu-Jitsu or Carlson Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. (These names may be trademarked) By default, this means that the main people left using the "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" name are those connected to the Torrence academy, I.e. Rorion and his sons. However they no longer have any special legal rights to the name. If you want to open your own "Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" academy tomorrow, then no one has standing to sue you for it. Someone might show up to beat the crap out of you in front of your students for being an unqualified fraud, but they won't have grounds to sue.



I see. By Carley Gracie I take it you mean Carlos who I believe created the Gracie style along with his brother Helio. Also, from what I've heard there is a lineage of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that is completely independent of the Gracies. The person who started it learned from the same source as Carlos and Helio, he went to the same school, but he never taught under the Gracies or claimed to be a part of them or to be associated with them in any way other than having trained alongside Carlos and Helio.

The Jiu Jitsu School I train at now does use the Gracie name and it was cofounded by one of the Gracies. As far as I know they are legit and I don't think they would get away with using the name or mentioning it on their website about being cofounded by a Gracie if that weren't the case. A fraudulent school, if not sued, can and most likely will be exposed if they're not the real deal.


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## kuniggety (Feb 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Also, from what I've heard there is a lineage of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that is completely independent of the Gracies. The person who started it learned from the same source as Carlos and Helio, he went to the same school, but he never taught under the Gracies or claimed to be a part of them or to be associated with them in any way other than having trained alongside Carlos and Helio.



Luiz Franca. Tony Dismukes mentioned him in post #28. I think in the early days there were some stylistic differences but with the internet and everyone pumping out DVDs and books, everyone is training and learning from each other.



> The Jiu Jitsu School I train at now does use the Gracie name and it was cofounded by one of the Gracies. As far as I know they are legit and I don't think they would get away with using the name or mentioning it on their website about being cofounded by a Gracie if that weren't the case. A fraudulent school, if not sued, can and most likely will be exposed if they're not the real deal.



There have unfortunately been a few cases of this happening. It's usually a person claiming a belt they don't have (black belt) but I even saw a video of a purple belt tearing apart a guy who decided to give himself a black belt and open his own school.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> By Carley Gracie I take it you mean Carlos who I believe created the Gracie style along with his brother Helio.


No, I mean Carley Gracie, who is one of Carlos's sons and Rorions cousin.



PhotonGuy said:


> Also, from what I've heard there is a lineage of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu that is completely independent of the Gracies. The person who started it learned from the same source as Carlos and Helio, he went to the same school, but he never taught under the Gracies or claimed to be a part of them or to be associated with them in any way other than having trained alongside Carlos and Helio.



Yep, that would be the Luis França/Oswaldo Fadda lineage. Both that lineage and the Gracie lineage originate with Mitsuo Maeda, but França never trained alongside Carlos and Helio. França learned directly from Maeda and taught Fadda, who taught students in poor neighborhoods while the Gracies were marketing to wealthier clientele. Carlos Gracie studied either directly under Maeda (as claimed by the Gracie family) or under Donato Pires, a student of Maeda (as suggested by an examination of the timeline in question). Carlos then taught his brothers, who helped to develop and spread the art. (Carlos, Helio, and George were the main three family members from the first generation involved in developing and spreading the art, but in the next generation there were many, many more family members involved.)

Interestingly enough, if you watch practitioners from the França/Fadda lineage, you can't distinguish them from practitioners of the Gracie lineage. That's because the art really evolved as a group effort of a whole community over several generations as jiu-jitsu practitioners from different schools fought, sparred, trained with, learned from, and stole techniques from catch wrestlers, judoka, lutre livre practitioners, samboists, and each other. Ideas which worked for one school were quickly copied by other schools.



PhotonGuy said:


> The Jiu Jitsu School I train at now does use the Gracie name and it was cofounded by one of the Gracies. As far as I know they are legit and I don't think they would get away with using the name or mentioning it on their website about being cofounded by a Gracie if that weren't the case.



I'm sure they are legit. May I ask what school you train at?



PhotonGuy said:


> A fraudulent school, if not sued, can and most likely will be exposed if they're not the real deal.



Oh yes. Unless they keep a really low profile, they will be discovered and publicly shamed eventually.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 21, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep, that would be the Luis França/Oswaldo Fadda lineage. Both that lineage and the Gracie lineage originate with Mitsuo Maeda, but França never trained alongside Carlos and Helio. França learned directly from Maeda and taught Fadda, who taught students in poor neighborhoods while the Gracies were marketing to wealthier clientele. Carlos Gracie studied either directly under Maeda (as claimed by the Gracie family) or under Donato Pires, a student of Maeda (as suggested by an examination of the timeline in question). Carlos then taught his brothers, who helped to develop and spread the art. (Carlos, Helio, and George were the main three family members from the first generation involved in developing and spreading the art, but in the next generation there were many, many more family members involved.)
> 
> Interestingly enough, if you watch practitioners from the França/Fadda lineage, you can't distinguish them from practitioners of the Gracie lineage. That's because the art really evolved as a group effort of a whole community over several generations as jiu-jitsu practitioners from different schools fought, sparred, trained with, learned from, and stole techniques from catch wrestlers, judoka, lutre livre practitioners, samboists, and each other. Ideas which worked for one school were quickly copied by other schools.


Interesting. I did know that Carlos and Helio went to a Jiu Jitsu school in Brazil that was owned and ran by a Japanese instructor from Japan. I take it that would be Maeda. So Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its roots in the Japanese art. 



Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm sure they are legit. May I ask what school you train at?


They are called Gracie New Jersey and they have a website at www.gracienewjersey.com


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## Steve (Feb 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Interesting. I did know that Carlos and Helio went to a Jiu Jitsu school in Brazil that was owned and ran by a Japanese instructor from Japan. I take it that would be Maeda. So Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its roots in the Japanese art.
> 
> 
> They are called Gracie New Jersey and they have a website at www.gracienewjersey.com


if you're interested in a detailed, academic history of BJJ, check out slideyfoot's article on his blog:


slideyfoot.com | bjj resources: History of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (BJJ)


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> Interesting. I did know that Carlos and Helio went to a Jiu Jitsu school in Brazil that was owned and ran by a Japanese instructor from Japan. I take it that would be Maeda. So Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has its roots in the Japanese art.



Yep. Roots in Judo, actually, since Maeda was a Kodokan black belt. However at the time Judo was sometimes marketed as Jiu-Jitsu (or Kano Jiu-Jitsu), since westerners were more likely to have read about Jiu-Jitsu.



PhotonGuy said:


> They are called Gracie New Jersey and they have a website at www.gracienewjersey.com



Head instructor is a 5th degree under Royler. Very legit.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 22, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yep. Roots in Judo, actually, since Maeda was a Kodokan black belt. However at the time Judo was sometimes marketed as Jiu-Jitsu (or Kano Jiu-Jitsu), since westerners were more likely to have read about Jiu-Jitsu.


From what I know Judo evolved from Ju-Jitsu not the other way around. In ancient Japan Ju-Jitsu was a grappling based art that was sometimes used by the Samurai. At the time there were many different Ju-Jitsu styles and schools each of which specialized in a particular aspect of the art. One style might specialize in leg sweeps, another style might specialize in shoulder throws, ect. Over time all the styles combined together into Judo which was more of a sport than a combat art. However, old school Ju-Jitsu was still widely practiced and it, along with many of the other martial arts, spread throughout the world to all different continents and countries including Brazil where Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was formed. In Brazil its spelled as "Jiu-Jitsu" not "Ju-Jitsu" with an extra i. So anyway, the Gracies then took their art to the USA and started a school in Torrance CA and from there it further spread.


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Judo evolved from Ju-Jitsu not the other way around. In ancient Japan Ju-Jitsu was a grappling based art that was sometimes used by the Samurai. At the time there were many different Ju-Jitsu styles and schools each of which specialized in a particular aspect of the art. One style might specialize in leg sweeps, another style might specialize in shoulder throws, ect. Over time all the styles combined together into Judo which was more of a sport than a combat art. However, old school Ju-Jitsu was still widely practiced and it, along with many of the other martial arts, spread throughout the world to all different continents and countries including Brazil where Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was formed. In Brazil its spelled as "Jiu-Jitsu" not "Ju-Jitsu" with an extra i. So anyway, the Gracies then took their art to the USA and started a school in Torrance CA and from there it further spread.


Photonguy, if you want to know about the history of BJJ, read the link I shared earlier to slideyfoot's blog.   Please tell me what you think of his article.  I'd like to hear your opinion.


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## kuniggety (Feb 22, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Judo evolved from Ju-Jitsu not the other way around.



You're right but Tony wasn't saying the other way around. Maeda, who taught judo to the Gracies, was one of the pioneers of judo but it was known as Kano Jiu-Jitsu at the time. If it already had the name Judo then what we practice today could very well have wound up being called BJ instead of BJJ.


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2017)

BJJ is a koryu art.  That's what I heard.


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## kuniggety (Feb 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> BJJ is a koryu art.  That's what I heard.



Where's Chris Parker when you need him.


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## Steve (Feb 22, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Where's Chris Parker when you need him.


It's brazilian koryu, though, sooooo....


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## Syed01 (Feb 23, 2017)

If you didn't practice kickboxing than I would already tell you to learn Karate. It's not like Karate is all about striking as grappling and holding techniques are encrypted in kata. And in order to know the application of kata one has to master bunkai which will take years after years to learn. So in this case the quicker direction would be Jujutsu. But you can still look into the point karate (sports karate) of WKF/JKA in order to get some benefits of footwork, timing, precision strike etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Judo evolved from Ju-Jitsu not the other way around. In ancient Japan Ju-Jitsu was a grappling based art that was sometimes used by the Samurai. At the time there were many different Ju-Jitsu styles and schools each of which specialized in a particular aspect of the art. One style might specialize in leg sweeps, another style might specialize in shoulder throws, ect. Over time all the styles combined together into Judo which was more of a sport than a combat art. However, old school Ju-Jitsu was still widely practiced and it, along with many of the other martial arts, spread throughout the world to all different continents and countries including Brazil where Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was formed. In Brazil its spelled as "Jiu-Jitsu" not "Ju-Jitsu" with an extra i. So anyway, the Gracies then took their art to the USA and started a school in Torrance CA and from there it further spread.


None of the Ju-Jitsu I've seen was as specialized as you suggest here. There may have been (may still be) some that were that specialized, but I'm not aware of them.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 23, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Where's Chris Parker when you need him.



Shaking his head... just so you know... 

Okay... 



PhotonGuy said:


> From what I know Judo evolved from Ju-Jitsu not the other way around.



Judo (Kodokan Judo) evolved from two specific forms of jujutsu (not "ju-jitsu"), Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu Jujutsu and Kito Ryu Jujutsu, with influence from another few systems on top. Originally referred to as Kano-ha Jujutsu, this became (evolved into) Kodokan Judo.



PhotonGuy said:


> In ancient Japan Ju-Jitsu was a grappling based art that was sometimes used by the Samurai.



Er... while, on the surface basically sorta correct, it is still far from the reality of jujutsu's development throughout Japan's history... at least partially because there was no single line of development.



PhotonGuy said:


> At the time there were many different Ju-Jitsu styles and schools each of which specialized in a particular aspect of the art. One style might specialize in leg sweeps, another style might specialize in shoulder throws, ect.


 
No. Different systems would have their own specialisation, sure... but it was more about particular specific contexts, which may lead to an emphasis of one aspect or another... but not to the point where X-Ryu focused on "leg sweeps" or any other such thing.



PhotonGuy said:


> Over time all the styles combined together into Judo which was more of a sport than a combat art.



No. Two systems went into the make-up of Judo. That's it. And while Judo developed into a full-blown sport, that wasn't the real intent to begin with.



PhotonGuy said:


> However, old school Ju-Jitsu was still widely practiced and it, along with many of the other martial arts, spread throughout the world to all different continents and countries including Brazil where Gracie Jiu-Jitsu was formed.



Er... huh? No, "old school jujutsu" was not "still widely practiced"... it still isn't... and, particularly with the ban on martial arts following the Japanese surrender in 1945, numbers shrunk again. Judo gained much of it's following by being part of the school system, for the record. And, no, these old school systems didn't, along with many other martial arts, spread throughout the world...it's really only been in the last couple of decades (since the late 70's, early 80's, really) that such systems have started to be seen and taught outside of Japan... 

As far as it coming to Brazil, that was an early form of Kodokan (Judo)... commonly known at the time as Kodokan Jujutsu or Kano-ha Jujutsu... not any of the "old systems" you're implying. 



PhotonGuy said:


> In Brazil its spelled as "Jiu-Jitsu" not "Ju-Jitsu" with an extra i. So anyway, the Gracies then took their art to the USA and started a school in Torrance CA and from there it further spread.



That was a common transliteration (both with and without the "extra 'i'") in the early 20th Century... for the record, the hiragana for jujutsu is: じゅじゅつ... to give that a literal phonetic reading, it's "ji-yu ji-yu-tsoo"... which can be rendered as "jiu jiutsu"... "jiu-jutsu"... "jujutsu"... "jyu jyutsu"... "jyu jyutu"... and more. The most standard today is the Hepburn form, which is "jujutsu"... so no, it's more that that was the common transliteration, whereas today, a different standard is used.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 23, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> You're right but Tony wasn't saying the other way around. Maeda, who taught judo to the Gracies, was one of the pioneers of judo but it was known as Kano Jiu-Jitsu at the time. If it already had the name Judo then what we practice today could very well have wound up being called BJ instead of BJJ.


Actually, the name "Judo" was already in use. Some representatives of the Kodokan, in the West, at least,actually were making an effort to distinguish Judo (a modern, scientific, civilized art worthy of a progressive 20th century nation like Japan) from Jujutsu (a primitive, thuggish vestige of the medieval age)*.

*(Adjectives in parentheses indicate the ideas presented by these Kodokan evangelists, not my own views.)

One complication was, there were already various publications in the West describing the deadly secret art of Japanese jujutsu, so that was what audiences wanted to see. Some Kodokan representatives just shrugged their shoulders and went with it. Also, practitioners (such as Maeda) who wanted to engage in professional  challenge matches could evade censure from the Kodokan by not using the Judo name.

As an aside, I have not yet found definitive information on what exactly constituted a violation of the Kodokan rules in this regard, since a number of official Kodokan representatives (such as Kimura) did openly engage in challenge matches. Was it getting paid that made it a violation? Was it including strikes rather than just grappling? Was it a political thing, where who you were and how you performed determined what you got away with? Was it a Japanese thing where a rule was expressed by implication rather than being explicitly spelled out? I've seen numerous statements that challenge matches or prize-fighting was against Kodokan rules, but I have yet to see the text of any official rule on the subject.



Chris Parker said:


> That was a common transliteration (both with and without the "extra 'i'") in the early 20th Century... for the record, the hiragana for jujutsu is: じゅじゅつ... to give that a literal phonetic reading, it's "ji-yu ji-yu-tsoo"... which can be rendered as "jiu jiutsu"... "jiu-jutsu"... "jujutsu"... "jyu jyutsu"... "jyu jyutu"... and more. The most standard today is the Hepburn form, which is "jujutsu"... so no, it's more that that was the common transliteration, whereas today, a different standard is used.



Well, if we're going to be phonetic about it, the Brazilian art in its homeland is pronounced something like "Zh(y)oo-Zheetz", with variations according to regional accents. The addition of the B or G to BJJ/GJJ is something that started in the U.S..


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## kuniggety (Feb 23, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, the name "Judo" was already in use. Some representatives of the Kodokan, in the West, at least,actually were making an effort to distinguish Judo (a modern, scientific, civilized art worthy of a progressive 20th century nation like Japan) from Jujutsu (a primitive, thuggish vestige of the medieval age)*.
> 
> *(Adjectives in parentheses indicate the ideas presented by these Kodokan evangelists, not my own views.)



I'll bow to your knowledge on it but from my understanding was that the name didn't formally change to judo until 1925. Even then, it was still referred to as jiu-jutsu in Japan for awhile and the name change just never crossed the ocean/took hold in Brazil. I think it was Helio Gracie that said that he never even heard the word judo until much later.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 23, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I think it was Helio Gracie that said that he never even heard the word judo until much later.


Amusingly enough, when Judo started being widely taught in Brazil under that name, Helio put forth the idea that "Judo" was a watered-down fraud created by the Japanese for Westerners so as to as to hide the true samurai art of Jiu-Jitsu which only the Gracies had learned from Maeda.

It wasn't until later (after his brothers had died) that Helio changed the origin story so that he personally had single-handedly created BJJ by taking what Carlos had learned from Maeda and improving the techniques by adding leverage so a smaller person could overcome a larger one.

Helio Gracie was a great martial artist and salesman. Historical accuracy and humility were not his strong suits.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 24, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Helio Gracie was a great martial artist and salesman. Historical accuracy and humility were not his strong suits.



As far as Helio and the Gracies in general being salesmen there were other well renowned martial artists who talked about the effectiveness of the Gracie system and I wonder if they made a deal with the Gracies to say the stuff they did. For instance Paul Vunak said that somebody with one year of training in the Gracie system could beat somebody with twenty years of training in some other system. I do believe Paul is legit and I know he is rather famous in the martial arts world but to say what he did sounds a bit far fetched and I wonder if he was paid to say it.


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## Steve (Feb 24, 2017)

Hi, photonguy,   I would really like for you to read the article I linked to earlier.   Could you please tell me what you think?


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## Buka (Feb 25, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> As far as Helio and the Gracies in general being salesmen there were other well renowned martial artists who talked about the effectiveness of the Gracie system and I wonder if they made a deal with the Gracies to say the stuff they did. For instance Paul Vunak said that somebody with one year of training in the Gracie system could beat somebody with twenty years of training in some other system. I do believe Paul is legit and I know he is rather famous in the martial arts world but to say what he did sounds a bit far fetched and I wonder if he was paid to say it.



Vunak said that back in the early nineties - boy did I laugh. I'm talking big laugh. I had over twenty years experience at the time, hard contact stuff, competing in everything and anything at the time. I would have been insulted, but it was just too fricken' funny.

Had the opportunity to take seminars with both Vunak  and Rickson in the same month in 91, two weeks apart. Couldn't afford them both, so I went with Rickson and only watched the Vunak seminar.

Vunak was correct. Boy, was he ever.

But that was then, not now.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 25, 2017)

Steve said:


> Hi, photonguy,   I would really like for you to read the article I linked to earlier.   Could you please tell me what you think?


Sure thing. I started reading it but its a long article so it might be awhile before I post my critique.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 25, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> As far as Helio and the Gracies in general being salesmen there were other well renowned martial artists who talked about the effectiveness of the Gracie system and I wonder if they made a deal with the Gracies to say the stuff they did. For instance Paul Vunak said that somebody with one year of training in the Gracie system could beat somebody with twenty years of training in some other system. I do believe Paul is legit and I know he is rather famous in the martial arts world but to say what he did sounds a bit far fetched and I wonder if he was paid to say it.


Nah, Helio was a salesman, a master of spin, and not above stretching the truth - but paying others for testimonials wasn't his style. Vunak said what he did because he was genuinely impressed with BJJ.

That said, I'd have to see the full context for the quote. Vunak has always advocated for the idea that one art is not necessarily better than another, but that one practitioner can beat another based on attributes and on using the right art at the right time and place. If a ground fighting specialist with one year of experience can get a strictly standup specialist with twenty years of experience to the ground, then that twenty years of experience is no longer so helpful. This was even more so in the 90s when most martial artists had no clue how ground fighting worked.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 26, 2017)

Buka said:


> Vunak said that back in the early nineties - boy did I laugh. I'm talking big laugh. I had over twenty years experience at the time, hard contact stuff, competing in everything and anything at the time. I would have been insulted, but it was just too fricken' funny.
> 
> Had the opportunity to take seminars with both Vunak  and Rickson in the same month in 91, two weeks apart. Couldn't afford them both, so I went with Rickson and only watched the Vunak seminar.
> 
> ...



So did you work with people who had one year of experience in the Gracie system when you went to the seminar? I have the impression you did since you came to the conclusion that Vunak was right, at least back then.


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## Buka (Feb 26, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So did you work with people who had one year of experience in the Gracie system when you went to the seminar? I have the impression you did since you came to the conclusion that Vunak was right, at least back then.



Looked at it from the other perspective - after a year of rolling, the difference in our game.


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## Mdwilson (Feb 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I hadn't even considered that possibility. It need not even be a "Bob's Generic" BB. Heck, if I took my hard-earned NGA BB and wore it while teaching BJJ (assuming I picked up the Blue you mentioned), that would be a lie. I know a guy who teaches both NGA (something-degree BB) and BJJ (currently Brown, I think). He changes belts between classes.
> 
> _Side note: I love watching him move in his NGA techniques - a clear influence of some of the "slipping" movement used in BJJ._




NGA?? What style is this?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 28, 2017)

Mdwilson said:


> NGA?? What style is this?


Nihon Goshin Aikido


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## Mdwilson (Feb 28, 2017)

Thanx, I learned something new .


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 1, 2017)

Mdwilson said:


> Thanx, I learned something new .


It's a cousin-art to the Aikido founded by Ueshiba. Both are primarily derivatives of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. NGA is self-defense focused (goshin translates to "self-defense"), and we tend to be more direct, less pure-aiki, and more compact. (The exception to that difference would be Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido, a branch off Ueshiba's art. They are quite like us.)


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 1, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Nah, Helio was a salesman, a master of spin, and not above stretching the truth - but paying others for testimonials wasn't his style. Vunak said what he did because he was genuinely impressed with BJJ.
> 
> That said, I'd have to see the full context for the quote. Vunak has always advocated for the idea that one art is not necessarily better than another, but that one practitioner can beat another based on attributes and on using the right art at the right time and place. If a ground fighting specialist with one year of experience can get a strictly standup specialist with twenty years of experience to the ground, then that twenty years of experience is no longer so helpful. This was even more so in the 90s when most martial artists had no clue how ground fighting worked.



I would have to dig up one of my old MA magazines to say the exact context of what Vunak said but from what I remember in the printed commercials for Gracie videos and paraphernalia there would be a quote by Vunak where he said something along the lines of how somebody with twenty years experience in a different martial art could be beaten by somebody with one year of experience in the Gracie system and that's why he became a student of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 2, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I would have to dig up one of my old MA magazines to say the exact context of what Vunak said but from what I remember in the printed commercials for Gracie videos and paraphernalia there would be a quote by Vunak where he said something along the lines of how somebody with twenty years experience in a different martial art could be beaten by somebody with one year of experience in the Gracie system and that's why he became a student of Gracie Jiu Jitsu.


Yeah, in that case I suspect Vunak's original quote was longer and more nuanced but Rorion Gracie pulled out just the lines that sounded best for advertising.


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## Mdwilson (Mar 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's a cousin-art to the Aikido founded by Ueshiba. Both are primarily derivatives of Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. NGA is self-defense focused (goshin translates to "self-defense"), and we tend to be more direct, less pure-aiki, and more compact. (The exception to that difference would be Shioda's Yoshinkan Aikido, a branch off Ueshiba's art. They are quite like us.)



Very interesting . I had never heard of it before. I thank you for the info. I will have to Google fu it to learn more.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2017)

Mdwilson said:


> Very interesting . I had never heard of it before. I thank you for the info. I will have to Google fu it to learn more.


Let me know if you have any questions.


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## Steve (Mar 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Let me know if you have any questions.


Is it effective.   You know....  on the street?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2017)

Steve said:


> Is it effective.   You know....  on the street?


Yes. LEOs have used it in their work, and I know several people who have used it for self-defense. As with most arts, it depends how it's trained and the person using it.


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## Steve (Mar 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. LEOs have used it in their work, and I know several people who have used it for self-defense. As with most arts, it depends how it's trained and the person using it.


Sorry.  I was speaking tongue in cheek.   Trying to be dramatic.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 3, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sorry.  I was speaking tongue in cheek.   Trying to be dramatic.


I know, because I know your tone, Steve (and you and I have discussed it before). I just figured newer readers wouldn't, so I just answered it.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 21, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It can be, but I don't think it's a good idea in general. I think it's a good time to knuckle down and work harder in one's own style.


I see what you mean, about how after you get your first black belt in your first style its a good idea to knuckle down and work even harder in that first style but some time during your training, I believe its always a good idea to explore other styles and to take up another style or styles in addition to the first one. As to when somebody starts training in a second style, that varies from person to person but some people start from the very beginning. For instance in a martial arts school that teaches both Judo and Karate, somebody who has never done martial arts before and is starting for their first time might sign up for both Judo and Karate and might start training in both right away. Some people don't start a second style until well after they get a black belt in their first style and then there's people who start a second style at all different stages in between. As for me, I think its a good idea to at least start learning a second style once you get a brown belt in your first style. Although I had some knowledge of other styles prior to that it was when I was a brown belt that I started really exploring other styles and I took up a second style of Judo. We both agree that after you get a black belt in your first style that that's when the real work begins, that's when the real training begins, that's when the real fun begins. Every style has it's strengths and weaknesses and no style is perfect so I like to be well rounded. So I think its a good idea to start training in a second style sometime before that since after you make a black belt in your first style you will no doubt start putting more into that first style and not focus so much on other styles but if you've already trained in them than you at least have some knowledge and skill in those other styles.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 21, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I see what you mean, about how after you get your first black belt in your first style its a good idea to knuckle down and work even harder in that first style but some time during your training, I believe its always a good idea to explore other styles and to take up another style or styles in addition to the first one. As to when somebody starts training in a second style, that varies from person to person but some people start from the very beginning. For instance in a martial arts school that teaches both Judo and Karate, somebody who has never done martial arts before and is starting for their first time might sign up for both Judo and Karate and might start training in both right away. Some people don't start a second style until well after they get a black belt in their first style and then there's people who start a second style at all different stages in between. As for me, I think its a good idea to at least start learning a second style once you get a brown belt in your first style. Although I had some knowledge of other styles prior to that it was when I was a brown belt that I started really exploring other styles and I took up a second style of Judo. We both agree that after you get a black belt in your first style that that's when the real work begins, that's when the real training begins, that's when the real fun begins. Every style has it's strengths and weaknesses and no style is perfect so I like to be well rounded. So I think its a good idea to start training in a second style sometime before that since after you make a black belt in your first style you will no doubt start putting more into that first style and not focus so much on other styles but if you've already trained in them than you at least have some knowledge and skill in those other styles.



I think it takes a lifetime to even come close to mastering one style if one is serious about it.  There is no time to be learning another art without neglecting the first.

I'm not saying to avoid picking up a couple techniques, etc, on a semi-casual basis.  I am always open to trying something new, trying to adopt a technique that I've seen that works well, etc.  But I have one 'art' and no time for anything else.  If I work on this one art for the rest of my life, I might become semi-proficient at that one art.

I'd rather not be a jack of all trades.


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## JR 137 (Mar 22, 2017)

The best "cross-training" I did was when I was in college.  I continued to take class at the dojo an hour and a half away, but couldn't make it there more than twice a week.  We had a martial arts club on campus.  It was entirely run by students; we'd take turn leading class in an informal manner.  There were people from several different styles of MA, and it was great to see how things were done.  There was no rank nonsense.  Most of us sparred, and sparred pretty hard (in a good way).  Not sure if we were technically allowed to spar, but no one complained nor got hurt.  

And I joined the boxing club.  It was run by a former low-level pro.  There were a lot of people there just for the workout and didn't want any sparring.  There were a few of us who did spar.  3 or 4 of the guys had previous experience and amateur fights, and 2 of them still fought.

And it was all free (or included in tuition). I miss college.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think it takes a lifetime to even come close to mastering one style if one is serious about it.  There is no time to be learning another art without neglecting the first.
> 
> I'm not saying to avoid picking up a couple techniques, etc, on a semi-casual basis.  I am always open to trying something new, trying to adopt a technique that I've seen that works well, etc.  But I have one 'art' and no time for anything else.  If I work on this one art for the rest of my life, I might become semi-proficient at that one art.
> 
> I'd rather not be a jack of all trades.


I think there are two other factors. First, some folks don't want to become masters of an art - they want to develop skill, and multiple arts can do that, rather than the deep intellectual diving into one art (mind you, I enjoy that dive).

Also, exploration in other arts can often lead to better understanding of the primary art. That has definitely been my experience. I've brought training exercises, adjustments to my technique, and even some vocabulary for explanations from other arts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> And it was all free (or included in tuition). I miss college.


Brother, so do I.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think there are two other factors. First, some folks don't want to become masters of an art - they want to develop skill, and multiple arts can do that, rather than the deep intellectual diving into one art (mind you, I enjoy that dive).
> 
> Also, exploration in other arts can often lead to better understanding of the primary art. That has definitely been my experience. I've brought training exercises, adjustments to my technique, and even some vocabulary for explanations from other arts.



Fair enough.  It seems odd to me to devote the time and effort to learn a particular art and then not wish to develop it further, but I guess I can understand that.

I guess that after the time I have put into learning my one martial arts style, and realizing how far away I am from anything even resembling mastery, the notion of trying to learn something new is anathema to me.  I barely have enough time to devote to the one art I kinda-sorta don't suck at, let alone another.

But I see your point.  People are different and they want different things.  I should have kept that in mind when I replied.


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Fair enough.  It seems odd to me to devote the time and effort to learn a particular art and then not wish to develop it further, but I guess I can understand that.



The ADD culture.  People want something new and exciting.  Once there's the slighted bit of monotony, they're looking for something else.  Forget about refining something, or even trying to perfect something; that takes too long and good enough is good enough.

Not all people, but quite a few.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The ADD culture.  People want something new and exciting.  Once there's the slighted bit of monotony, they're looking for something else.  Forget about refining something, or even trying to perfect something; that takes too long and good enough is good enough.
> 
> Not all people, but quite a few.



There may be something to that.  But I am also wondering if there is a difference in perspective that I was missing.

The difference is the reason for the training, which I think Gerry touched on.  If a person's reason for training is to become a more proficient fighter (for example) or a more well-rounded martial artist, whatever that means, then I guess I understand why such a person would seek to include training from a variety of sources.  The focal point is upon themselves, internal rather than external.

My approach is perhaps more old-fashioned, and I assumed it was typical of others; but perhaps it is not.  I am not focused on what makes me a better fighter or better at self-defense, or seeking to expand my options and arsenal and so on.  Those are all good things, but not why I train.  I train to become better at Isshinryu.  That's my external purpose.  I can't become better at Isshinryu training judo, for example.  Yes, maybe something I would learn would inform my Isshinryu in a positive way, I can see that, but while I am doing that, I am not doing Isshinryu.  And I seriously do not have the time to devote to both.

I also have internal reasons why I pursue the study of martial arts, which have nothing to do with Isshinryu as much as being on a particular path.  In that sense, it doesn't matter what I study, so long as I stay on the path.  Taking side roads and detours may be entertaining, but they do not keep me moving on the path I set out on.

And finally, as time has passed, I have become more cognizant of being part of a teacher-student relationship.  My sensei did not say I should go and study this or that.  To do so on my own without consulting him seems to me to be improper now, in a way it did not when I began training.  My sensei would never forbid me to do anything, nor do I think it would be his place to do so; I am a grown (and old!) man after all.  However, I feel a sense of obligation and the bounds of respect.  I chose to be his student; he chose to teach me.  I'll honor that arrangement until told otherwise.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> The ADD culture.  People want something new and exciting.  Once there's the slighted bit of monotony, they're looking for something else.  Forget about refining something, or even trying to perfect something; that takes too long and good enough is good enough.
> 
> Not all people, but quite a few.


I don't think it has to be that, at all, JR. Some folks start an art and want competency in it, and that comes long before anything resembling mastery. They get that competency, then want to expand that competency in other areas. So, someone might take a striking art for a decade, then find a grappling art to work on. 

It's kind of the opposite of my current approach (I take new material to deepen my competency within the principles of my primary art, using it as a container for what I learn). But if I didn't have to work for a living, I'd probably take up boxing for a while. I wouldn't stop teaching my primary art, but if I wasn't teaching, my NGA wouldn't be formally trained much during that time.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I guess that after the time I have put into learning my one martial arts style, and realizing how far away I am from anything even resembling mastery, the notion of trying to learn something new is anathema to me. I barely have enough time to devote to the one art I kinda-sorta don't suck at, let alone another.


I have two answers to this from seemingly opposite perspectives, although they both apply in my case.

Perspective #1: The different martial arts I practice are entirely different areas of study. From this perspective one could easily ask: Bill, why do you spend time messing around with electronics when that's time you could spend improving your Karate? Tony, why do you spend time practicing guitar when that is time you could spend improving your Jiu-Jitsu?

The answer is that we are human beings, not ants, and most of us want to do more than one thing in our lives. It's not as if it's possible to "finish" studying Karate or electronics or Jiu-Jitsu or guitar before moving on to the next subject. Everything we want to do in life will take some time and energy away from other concerns and that's just fine.


Perspective #2: The different martial arts I practice are really all parts of one area of study - how to be a better martial artist. My primary goal is not to be the best Jiu-Jiteiro that I can be. It's to be the best _martial artist_ that I can be. I'm studying  a field which you might loosely define as the use of body and mind as applied to hand-to-hand combative situations. That means I'm working to develop attributes and skills such as balance, timing, distancing, posture, structure, power generation, tactile sensitivity,  situational awareness, tactics, mental toughness, kinesthetic awareness, leverage, relaxation, efficiency, and so on. The individual arts (BJJ, Muay Thai, Kali, Capoeira, Wing Tsun, Boxing, whatever) are just training tools for developing those attributes and skills. It turns out that for me these different arts offer different perspectives into various aspects of these elements. Having those different perspectives helps me progress faster.

For example, Wing Tsun seemingly violates almost everything I had learned in boxing and Muay Thai about power generation for punches. Nevertheless, @yak sao was able to demonstrate effective punching power to me using the WT method. (Not as much power as an equivalently skilled boxer, but enough to be effective in the context of the WT tactical approach.) How did that work? When I figured out the answer, I was able to take those elements back to my boxing and add them in to my boxing punches without violating the principles of power generation I had already learned - making them even more powerful. BTW - I am certain that many boxers with heavy hands already use these elements. It's just that most of them do so unconsciously, having figured them out by instinct during the process of throwing hundreds of thousands of punches. Boxing culture tends to be less analytically concerned with being consciously aware of the subtler, "internal" adjustments than WC/WT culture.


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## stonewall1350 (Mar 23, 2017)

Meh. Depends on if it is traditional jujitsu that is oriented at self defense. I would love to train in that, and I regularly train Brazilian Jujitsu. I'm not a striker. I did boxing. Just better at grappling. Plus the knowledge works for my primary self defense art...my firearm. If someone is assaulting me...I would much rather be able to take them off balance, throw, trip, sweep...or use a basic strike...than get into a boxing match. But that's me. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JR 137 (Mar 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There may be something to that.  But I am also wondering if there is a difference in perspective that I was missing.
> 
> The difference is the reason for the training, which I think Gerry touched on.  If a person's reason for training is to become a more proficient fighter (for example) or a more well-rounded martial artist, whatever that means, then I guess I understand why such a person would seek to include training from a variety of sources.  The focal point is upon themselves, internal rather than external.
> 
> ...





gpseymour said:


> I don't think it has to be that, at all, JR. Some folks start an art and want competency in it, and that comes long before anything resembling mastery. They get that competency, then want to expand that competency in other areas. So, someone might take a striking art for a decade, then find a grappling art to work on.
> 
> It's kind of the opposite of my current approach (I take new material to deepen my competency within the principles of my primary art, using it as a container for what I learn). But if I didn't have to work for a living, I'd probably take up boxing for a while. I wouldn't stop teaching my primary art, but if I wasn't teaching, my NGA wouldn't be formally trained much during that time.



I didn't mean to say the ADD culture is the ONLY reason; just that it's ONE reason.

I agree with both of your posts.  Regarding Gerry's comments about someone starting something new after 10 years...  that's certainly not the ADD culture I was referencing.  I meant it more towards the people who start one style, and are almost immediately looking to do another one alongside it. We certainly don't have a shortage of newbie posters asking about starting two or more styles simultaneously, with zero MA experience.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.  Live and let live.  I wouldn't start another art until I plateaued in my training, several years into it.  But that's just me.


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## Buka (Mar 23, 2017)

My desire was  never to study more than one style. I never had the intent to explore various avenues of the Martial Arts. But it was like hanging out with a lot of really good chefs in a well stocked kitchen. And everyone was hungry.

Would have been crazy not to see how things were cooked - before repeatedly stuffing my face.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I think it takes a lifetime to even come close to mastering one style if one is serious about it.  There is no time to be learning another art without neglecting the first.
> 
> I'm not saying to avoid picking up a couple techniques, etc, on a semi-casual basis.  I am always open to trying something new, trying to adopt a technique that I've seen that works well, etc.  But I have one 'art' and no time for anything else.  If I work on this one art for the rest of my life, I might become semi-proficient at that one art.
> 
> I'd rather not be a jack of all trades.



I do agree that it does take a lifetime or longer to come close to mastering any one style but you also have to define what you mean by style. We all have our own style. As for me I take techniques from different styles and combine them into my own style just as anybody who trains in multiple styles would do that same thing. Even if you train in only one style you do develop your own style within that style. Lets say for instance that both you and me train in Shotokan Karate. After many years and much progress we both develop our own styles within that style so your style of Shotokan Karate would be different from mine. So yes, developing and mastering your own style does take a lifetime and longer. As a matter of fact I would say there is no end to it. Even if you lived to be a million you would still be developing your own style and gaining further mastery of it. But that's not to say that your own style has to be restricted to one primary style. As I said, I like to take techniques and methods from different styles and that's how I develop my own style.

I also agree with not being a jack of all trades but I like to be well rounded. I find it much more effective to just focus primarily on a few methods and techniques, but that's not to say that those methods and techniques can't come from different styles. Just because you aren't a jack of all trades doesn't mean you can't be well rounded. For instance, lets say somebody focuses on just the jab, straight punch, hook punch, elbows, knees, and round kick and that's all they primarily focus on for their striking repertoire. That is much more effective than trying to focus on a hundred different striking techniques. In addition to that they might focus on certain throws and holds that really work for them and by focusing on them they become very effective. That way a person is well rounded, they've got a good base in both striking and grappling, but they aren't a jack of all trades where they're spreading themselves too thin and in doing so being less effective overall. I see this problem particularly in certain Tae Kwon Do classes where they try to teach you a hundred or so different moves and expect you to be able to do them all with a certain level of proficiency. I think its good to know many moves, to be familiar with many moves, but to only focus on a few which really work. As for what works, that depends from person to person.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 27, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> I do agree that it does take a lifetime or longer to come close to mastering any one style but you also have to define what you mean by style.



I should have been more specific.  I mean 'art' or as we call it, 'ryu'.  



> We all have our own style.



I guess many people do.  I do not.  I study Isshinryu, not "Bill's take on Isshinryu, with things I added on my own because I felt like it."



> As for me I take techniques from different styles and combine them into my own style just as anybody who trains in multiple styles would do that same thing. Even if you train in only one style you do develop your own style within that style. Lets say for instance that both you and me train in Shotokan Karate. After many years and much progress we both develop our own styles within that style so your style of Shotokan Karate would be different from mine. So yes, developing and mastering your own style does take a lifetime and longer. As a matter of fact I would say there is no end to it. Even if you lived to be a million you would still be developing your own style and gaining further mastery of it. But that's not to say that your own style has to be restricted to one primary style. As I said, I like to take techniques and methods from different styles and that's how I develop my own style.



That's OK and I understand what you're saying, but that's not me.  I may have a different set of abilities and training level that limits my ability to do the techniques that are part of my ryu, but that's not something I find appealing about my limitations.



> I also agree with not being a jack of all trades but I like to be well rounded. I find it much more effective to just focus primarily on a few methods and techniques, but that's not to say that those methods and techniques can't come from different styles. Just because you aren't a jack of all trades doesn't mean you can't be well rounded. For instance, lets say somebody focuses on just the jab, straight punch, hook punch, elbows, knees, and round kick and that's all they primarily focus on for their striking repertoire. That is much more effective than trying to focus on a hundred different striking techniques. In addition to that they might focus on certain throws and holds that really work for them and by focusing on them they become very effective. That way a person is well rounded, they've got a good base in both striking and grappling, but they aren't a jack of all trades where they're spreading themselves too thin and in doing so being less effective overall. I see this problem particularly in certain Tae Kwon Do classes where they try to teach you a hundred or so different moves and expect you to be able to do them all with a certain level of proficiency. I think its good to know many moves, to be familiar with many moves, but to only focus on a few which really work. As for what works, that depends from person to person.



Again, I will say that I understand what you are saying, and based on the outcome you are after, this is probably a very appropriate response.

I am not interested in being 'well-rounded'.  I am interested in studying Isshinryu, which I believe has everything in it I need.  And whether or not anyone agrees with me, it doesn't matter; this is what *I* study and am going to continue studying.  I currently am about one rung up from absolutely sucking at it; this is a huge step for me and I like it.

My approach is more like a person learning to speak a foreign language.  Having learned to ask where the bathroom is and where to find the booze, now I'll jump off and start learning a different language because who needs the entire vocabulary when you have enough to get by in?  No. I committed to learn the one foreign language, I'll stick with that.  If I ever reached the point where I became entirely fluent, then maybe time for another language.  With regard to Isshinryu, I cannot believe I will ever reach the point where I have learned all there is to know about it.

I attended a seminar recently where I was exposed to some techniques I had never seen before, which are alien to my ryu.  It was fun and informative and I may return for another seminar at some point. However, I don't consider it cross-training or becoming more well-rounded because I'm not going to seriously pursue it as another full-time training aspect.  I have no interest in that; I'm very busy doing what I am doing with Isshinryu.  It was simply a fun and eye-opening learning experience.

Having said all that, I have read and believe I understand the counterpoints to my statements.  I get it.  Some have difficulty understanding why anyone would not want to expose themselves to a broad regimen of different types of training, that 'well-rounded' thing you mentioned.  I, on the other hand, have difficulty understanding why no  one is willing to see something through to completion anymore.  I have an art, I have a sensei, I have a commitment to myself to pursue the study of this ryu in a serious manner.  I don't need to be well-rounded, I need to keep my nose to the grindstone.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I, on the other hand, have difficulty understanding why no one is willing to see something through to completion anymore.


I have no problem with the path you've chosen (and hopefully my comment above helps you understand my own path). However, I think we probably both agree that in martial arts training there is no "completion", whether you train in one art or many. No matter how long either of us study, there will always be more to learn. That being the case, I see no point in criticizing anyone for "not seeing something through to completion," given that such a thing isn't possible.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 27, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have no problem with the path you've chosen (and hopefully my comment above helps you understand my own path). However, I think we probably both agree that in martial arts training there is no "completion", whether you train in one art or many. No matter how long either of us study, there will always be more to learn. That being the case, I see no point in criticizing anyone for "not seeing something through to completion," given that such a thing isn't possible.



Yes, I understand what you're saying.  "To completion" in my case refers to my own completion...


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 27, 2017)

Thinking about it at dojo tonight. If I was going to 'cross train', I think I might try dance. Or Tai Chi. Seriously.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 29, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I should have been more specific.  I mean 'art' or as we call it, 'ryu'.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you sound like somebody who wants to study strictly Isshinryu and learn everything you can about Isshinryu and not take up any other styles. So at least for you, when to take up a second style would be never. Is that the case?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 29, 2017)

PhotonGuy said:


> So you sound like somebody who wants to study strictly Isshinryu and learn everything you can about Isshinryu and not take up any other styles. So at least for you, when to take up a second style would be never. Is that the case?



Correct.  And I feel that Isshinryu is not the be-all, end-all.  It just happens to be what I study.  If I had landed at a Gojuryu or a Shorinryu or a TKD place, then I'd be studying that.

The more layers of the onion I peel back, it seems there are more layers to investigate.  I feel I'll never reach the end of the possibilities, the learning.  It just goes on and on.  So yes, I would not turn my back on that to try to absorb something else.  I'd be worse at both, rather than better at one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thinking about it at dojo tonight. If I was going to 'cross train', I think I might try dance. Or Tai Chi. Seriously.


I remember Don Angier saying he'd actually like to have 6 months of dance training as a prerequisite for training with him.


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## PhotonGuy (Apr 9, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Correct.  And I feel that Isshinryu is not the be-all, end-all.  It just happens to be what I study.  If I had landed at a Gojuryu or a Shorinryu or a TKD place, then I'd be studying that.
> 
> The more layers of the onion I peel back, it seems there are more layers to investigate.  I feel I'll never reach the end of the possibilities, the learning.  It just goes on and on.  So yes, I would not turn my back on that to try to absorb something else.  I'd be worse at both, rather than better at one.



Well the fact of the matter is that you inevitably will add to and take away stuff from Isshinryu, at least you will with your own style of Isshinryu. Sure, you learn the basics from your instructor but you eventually develop your own style and methods. At the really advanced levels your Isshinryu will be different than your instructor's Isshinryu, which is different from his instructor's Isshinryu and so forth. As the movie "The Karate Kid III" puts it, Karate comes from inside you. Although its just a movie the movie makes the point very well. The roots come from your instructor but the art itself comes from inside you. Eventually you will do it your own way.

Gichin Funakoshi, the founder of Shotokan Karate, after some fifty plus years of training in the art he found a way of throwing the reverse punch that was a little bit better. Now, exactly what Funakoshi found I don't know but it doesn't really matter because while what Funakoshi found obviously worked for him it doesn't mean it would work for me or somebody else. Especially when you get to such an advanced level you find what works best for you and you make your own discoveries on how you can improve the art for yourself.


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## JP3 (Apr 9, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Correct.  And I feel that Isshinryu is not the be-all, end-all.  It just happens to be what I study.  If I had landed at a Gojuryu or a Shorinryu or a TKD place, then I'd be studying that.
> 
> The more layers of the onion I peel back, it seems there are more layers to investigate.  I feel I'll never reach the end of the possibilities, the learning.  It just goes on and on.  So yes, I would not turn my back on that to try to absorb something else.  I'd be worse at both, rather than better at one.


I've often found that to be true in myself, Bill. More power to you if you are in a place with a stable school and instruction which isn't capping out, etc.  I started at 8 with aikido, and my teacher, who was a young man, had to move to follow his professional career. I got into TKD early in college, and stuck with that through undergrad and up, and across a move to another city. When I was done with that level of school, I moved to Houston, and couldn't find a TKD school of the same association, so found a good school with another young guy with whom I assisted teaching TKD in exchange for learning HKD straight from him, sort of privately which was cool, and participating in the HKD classes as well sort of as a sleeper, is how he put it. Then came grad school and off I went again, and this time it was Muay Thai that was ready to hand and when that transferred out I carried the MT with me and got into judo. Landed in aikido after an illness from which I need some rehab, and have stuck with it... now the longest of any of my stuff, if you don't count my ongoing self-training in those as "continuation," which I really don't. It's just keeping the polish on the car and the engine tuned and making sure there is air in the tires.

At regular time/grade rank progression, if I could sidestep association politics, I'd be like a muckety-muck by now!  But, I'd not have met my wife, so that's a no go.  Also, I really have enjoyed the contrast between styles, it has been a fun ride.

Also, it's a good thing to know that someone else uses the onion as a metaphor.


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