# Thoughts on time variance to earn black belt



## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

*BLUF:  It is a disservice to your students to have a longer expected time to reach black belt than other schools of the same art, style, lineage, or federation.*

One thing I've been thinking about recently is how different schools within the same lineage might have different timings for when belts are earned.  For example, my TKD school it's usually 4-5 years to earn black belt.  Some schools are 1 or 2 years, other schools want to prove that their black belts earned it by making them take 8-10 years.

*To be clear,* I'm not talking about the time it takes different arts or styles to get black belt.  What's on my mind is school transfers.  I don't care that my school gets a black belt in 4-5 years and a BJJ fighter gets theirs in 10-15 years.  Because if I transfer to a BJJ school, even as a 3rd Dan in TKD, I'd transfer in as a white belt.  And if a BJJ black belt transferred to our TKD school, they would come in as a white belt.  The arts are so different that it wouldn't make sense to even try and retain your rank.  But if I go to another TKD school, you bet I want to be treated as a 3rd degree black belt.

I said in my BLUF that I think it's a disservice to artificially inflate the time it takes to get black belt.  To be clear, I don't think belt factories are good, nor do I think people should be rushed through.  However, there are 3 big reasons I think it is a disservice if your progression is longer than others:

The belts themselves are meaningless.  At the lower levels, they serve to mark a place in the curriculum where students should be growing.  At higher levels, it largely becomes political, where the higher your belt the more autonomy and authority you can have.
If someone transfers into your school as a black belt and has 1-2 years of experience, and they're in a class with your black belts that all have 4-5 years of experience, they're going to be in way over their head.
If one of your students transfers to another school as a green belt, they may have the equivalent skills of one of their black belts, but they will lack the standing.  In some cases it might be a formality, but in other cases it could mean that they are held back on becoming an instructor, or down the road on opening their own school.
I realize there are arguments that could be made against each of these points.  I'm not sure I even stand 100% by them.  It's just thoughts that have crossed my mind, and I thought I'd share to get perspective from others.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2020)

I applaud any time high standards are upheld.  Sometimes that means things take longer.  Even within the same organization.  Within an individual school, even within a larger organization, I feel that the standards are established by the instructor, and if an instructor decides he wants higher standards, then he ought to do so. 

So what if a green belt is equal or better than the black belts at another school?  The green belt got better training.  The black belts might want to take a hard look at what is going on in their school.  The green belt might realize he does not want to transfer into that school.  I think it’s a poor argument to say that the green belt should have been held to a lower standard so that he would better fit in if he might, someday, maybe, need to transfer to another school.

In my opinion, rank takes as long as it takes for the student to reach the standards upheld by the instructor.  For some students, that is longer than others.  For some schools that hold a higher standard, then it will be longer for most or all students.  I cannot see any sense in feeling like all schools, even within a system or an organization, have to be held at the same standard, especially if that standard is not especially high.


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## Yokozuna514 (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> *BLUF:  It is a disservice to your students to have a longer expected time to reach black belt than other schools of the same art, style, lineage, or federation.*
> 
> One thing I've been thinking about recently is how different schools within the same lineage might have different timings for when belts are earned.  For example, my TKD school it's usually 4-5 years to earn black belt.  Some schools are 1 or 2 years, other schools want to prove that their black belts earned it by making them take 8-10 years.
> 
> ...


It's an interesting question you put forth but I look at if from a different perspective.  Regardless of the time it takes for you to earn your black belt, I would be most concerned about going to another school and looking out of place with all the other equivalent ranks.   If it turns out that my knowledge is lacking or if my fitness was not as it should be or if the quality of the techniques I demonstrated are not up to par with the new school, that is a perhaps the biggest concern as I've spent a good deal of my time training somewhere where the quality is not up to par.  Some people do not mind that kind of comparison and I think that says a lot of themselves as well.  

In regards to the amount of time it takes for someone to reach their BB, I would hope that they felt it was appropriate and that the school they were attending met the standard of what that style espouses to represent.  If the standard is low chances are the quality of the BB will be low as well but perhaps those people only care about talking the talk and not necessarily walking the walk.  You can't fake real time on the the tatami, what you know will always come out when you step on the floor.


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## jobo (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> *BLUF:  It is a disservice to your students to have a longer expected time to reach black belt than other schools of the same art, style, lineage, or federation.*
> 
> One thing I've been thinking about recently is how different schools within the same lineage might have different timings for when belts are earned.  For example, my TKD school it's usually 4-5 years to earn black belt.  Some schools are 1 or 2 years, other schools want to prove that their black belts earned it by making them take 8-10 years.
> 
> ...


we get lots of students comming to uni, that come to us to contiue the training and the differance in abilities to belts is amazing to see.

this matters little, they are allowed to keep what ever rank they arived with, even if they are high ranked and completly useless, which is a disapointing high %

as all the belt does is keep their gi tucked up, they soon find their level with the existing students and as there is only the blackbelt sylabus everyone is learning the same stuff, just at different levels of acheivement

its sometimes amusing when you get them strutting in full of their own self importance and pushing their luck with a lowly belt like me and i knock them over. you can see the look of bewilderment on their face as they are sat on their bum, they usually dont come back


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

jobo said:


> we get lots of students comming to uni, that come to us to contiue the training and the differance in abilities to belts is amazing to see.



There was one girl that came to my school a long time ago.  It was such a disservice that she came in as a black belt.  The only kick she seemed to know was roundhouse kick, and she wasn't even very good at that.  We had to teach her most of the stuff that people learn in our intermediate belts (let alone the advanced stuff before black belt).

I felt so bad for her.  If she wasn't a black belt, she would have been put into the proper class for her abilities.  She wouldn't have struggled so much, and it would have been a hell of a lot less embarrassing for her.  

Maybe this is the other side of my point - that going faster than you should is also a disservice.  (And I think much easier for people to agree with).  I just know I've seen the effects of different times to get their belts.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> There was one girl that came to my school a long time ago.  It was such a disservice that she came in as a black belt.  The only kick she seemed to know was roundhouse kick, and she wasn't even very good at that.  We had to teach her most of the stuff that people learn in our intermediate belts (let alone the advanced stuff before black belt).
> 
> I felt so bad for her.  If she wasn't a black belt, she would have been put into the proper class for her abilities.  She wouldn't have struggled so much, and it would have been a hell of a lot less embarrassing for her.
> 
> Maybe this is the other side of my point - that going faster than you should is also a disservice.  (And I think much easier for people to agree with).  I just know I've seen the effects of different times to get their belts.


I think that schools will often allow a transfer to wear the rank they had earned in their previous school, if their training was in the same system.  If their is some discrepancy with their skills, they just hold at that level until they reach the bar.

I think in the case you describe here, she ought to have at least been given the option to put on a white belt.  Maybe it should not have been optional.  Call a spade a spade.


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## Danny T (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> *BLUF:  It is a disservice to your students to have a longer expected time to reach black belt than other schools of the same art, style, lineage, or federation.*
> 
> One thing I've been thinking about recently is how different schools within the same lineage might have different timings for when belts are earned.  For example, my TKD school it's usually 4-5 years to earn black belt.  Some schools are 1 or 2 years, other schools want to prove that their black belts earned it by making them take 8-10 years.
> 
> ...


Who sets the standard for any particular training facility/group? The federation or the individual owner of the school? I set the standards for my students and usually my standards are higher and takes longer to attain by most than the organizations we are affiliated with.

Just what does it mean to "be treated as a 3rd black belt"??
I work very hard to treat everyone the same as you have listed in #1 above "the belts themselves are meaningless"


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 11, 2020)

This is a sad state of affairs I have lamented for decades.  It's not a new problem, but probably getting worse.  Karate has never been unified like judo or kendo, with a more or less central authority (in Japan, with quasi government connections. May have happened if not for WW II.)  There are many styles, and in the West, little or no central authority within each individual style.  Thus, each dojo's sensei is the sole determiner of belt qualifications.  Expectations have largely degraded over the years due to:

Commercialization.  Lessening of peer pressure amongst other sensei due to the sheer numbers nowadays - it's not a close knit black belt        community anymore.  Time separation from the ideals held by the previous masters - and maybe a corresponding loss of respect of the old karate.  A feeling of entitlement by some sensei that allows them to do what they want, regardless of the previous point.  And a general dumbing down of our society, where high school graduates barely read or know how to critically think - expectations have lowered overall.

Unfortunately, the cat is out of the bag, and there is probably no way to put it back.  There are too many factions within each style (they can't even keep their forms similar to each other.)  No way will they get together and agree to unite under one banner at this point.  This leads to the problems Skribs brought up.  But those are internal problems within the karate world.                 
 Perhaps more important is the effect on the perceptions of the general public.  With so many poor quality black belt "experts" running around, the public loses its respect for the ranks.  If a 7 year old can get a black belt, how special can karate be?  Can the public have faith that karate is really a worthwhile endeavor?  This hurts the art in the long run.

Sometimes, the sensei is aware of these things, but doesn't care that much.  Sometimes, he is so far removed from the original concept, he is unaware of the situation, unaware of staying true to the style's originators, unaware of the effects of his teaching.

I see no practical solution.  Each individual school must be taken on its own merits.  What is low proficiency in one school may be considered great in another.  For a transfer from another school, if his green belt skill is inferior to the new school's green, he may get discouraged, or conversely, be motivated to get better.  If his skill is superior to similar belts in the new school, he may lose respect for it, or have his ego inflated. Fortunately, there are dojos and sensei who truly respect the art and its legacy, and strive to remain true to it, holding high expectations.

In the end, all we have is being true to one's self.


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## Buka (Feb 11, 2020)

@skribs, you start some nice threads.

I just had a humorous thought. What if we did it backwards? What if when you joined a school you immediately wore a black belt on your crisp new beginners gi?. And every time you passed a grading test you went to brown belt etcetera, etcetera, until eventually you were promoted to white belt. 

We could still have some pomp and circumstance at the white belt promotion, drinks even. And then watch that nifty new white belt get filthy dirty over the next ten years.

I wish I had thought of that years ago. Just to tick of my fellow Karate schools.


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that schools will often allow a transfer to wear the rank they had earned in their previous school, if their training was in the same system.  If their is some discrepancy with their skills, they just hold at that level until they reach the bar.
> 
> I think in the case you describe here, she ought to have at least been given the option to put on a white belt.  Maybe it should not have been optional.  Call a spade a spade.



If it's a colored belt we do that.  Black belts are registered with the organization and we can't really argue it.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> If it's a colored belt we do that.  Black belts are registered with the organization and we can't really argue it.


ouch!


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

Buka said:


> @skribs, you start some nice threads.
> 
> I just had a humorous thought. What if we did it backwards? What if when you joined a school you immediately wore a black belt on your crisp new beginners gi?. And every time you passed a grading test you went to brown belt etcetera, etcetera, until eventually you were promoted to white belt.
> 
> ...



That would give new meaning to these quotes:

Black Belt is when the real learning starts
The school is handing out black belts like candy


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> ouch!



It's a blessing and a curse.  For example, if I go to a new school and say "I'm a 3rd degree black belt", they can't say "naw, we wanna start you over at white belt."


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## wab25 (Feb 11, 2020)

I am all for setting standards for your ranks that are consistent. If you are a blue belt, you can do and receive this set of techniques, and over here is the set that you are working on. Now, however long it takes for a student to do and receive... thats how long it takes to get that belt.

A lot of that comes from the fact that I come from a throwing art. The biggest requirement in the kyu ranks is, what falls can you take and how well can you take them? When people come to my class and want to wear their rank from somewhere else, I say thats fine... but you will be thrown according to your rank. Then we throw the blue belts around a bit. (white, blue, green, brown...) If they keep their rank on... they get thrown at that level. If they want to go put on a white belt, then we teach them how to fall... starting from where they are. This is a great way to learn about your new student. Some insist on starting at white, before they see anything. Some see the blue belts get thrown, and decide they should start at the beginning. Some suck it up, and try to take the higher falls. These we usually never see back again, sometimes they complain about how rough we were... but, they wore the rank... Sometimes, we get someone who really can take the higher falls. So we train them at a higher level, and "do the paperwork" for the national organization.


Danny T said:


> Just what does it mean to "be treated as a 3rd black belt"??


For us it means we can throw you high, hard and fast... and we don't give you any support on your fall, you are on your own there. You are a 3rd degree black belt... you can take any fall, anywhere, any time. It also means when I attack you, I am hitting you for real and kicking you for real. You had better know how to deal with it.


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## JR 137 (Feb 11, 2020)

We’ve got a great quality control system in our organization - black belts are all tested by the same person: Kaicho Tadashi Nakamura. Black belts after a certain rank are allowed to promote their students to black belt, but it’s not done often. And I don’t think they promote past 3rd dan. Internationally is a bit different, and those are done by branch chiefs. 

Nakamura travels a bit to various dojos, and will typically hold a black belt test while he’s there. He’ll also test people at gatherings/clinics/etc. 

This holds teachers very accountable. Students’ performance is highly reflective on the teacher. If a teacher has people who’ve got no business being tested, he’ll have a conversation. Students who are over qualified, same thing. Either way, there’s some explaining to do. If it’s justifiable, so be it. If not, it’s not pretty. 

My teacher is conservative when it comes to sending people to test. In his 30+ years, he hasn’t had a student fail. And yes, people routinely fail the test, so it’s not like it’s a participation award.


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

Danny T said:


> Just what does it mean to "be treated as a 3rd black belt"??



Autonomy and authority.


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## Martial D (Feb 11, 2020)

Belts are useless as an indicator of what someone can actually do. Most of the 'black belts' I know could barely touch their toes...or see them.


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## Danny T (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> Autonomy and authority.


So when you go into another TKD school you go with a sense of self governing, authoritative, and independent with your actions?
I would be humble and gracious and never with a sense of autonomy and authority.
Am I miss understanding something?


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## dvcochran (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> There was one girl that came to my school a long time ago.  It was such a disservice that she came in as a black belt.  The only kick she seemed to know was roundhouse kick, and she wasn't even very good at that.  We had to teach her most of the stuff that people learn in our intermediate belts (let alone the advanced stuff before black belt).
> 
> I felt so bad for her.  If she wasn't a black belt, she would have been put into the proper class for her abilities.  She wouldn't have struggled so much, and it would have been a hell of a lot less embarrassing for her.
> 
> Maybe this is the other side of my point - that going faster than you should is also a disservice.  (And I think much easier for people to agree with).  I just know I've seen the effects of different times to get their belts.


So did this girl stick it out and get up to par? If so did it really matter? Especially if everyone saw what it took for her to get there.


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## dvcochran (Feb 11, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that schools will often allow a transfer to wear the rank they had earned in their previous school, if their training was in the same system.  If their is some discrepancy with their skills, they just hold at that level until they reach the bar.
> 
> I think in the case you describe here, she ought to have at least been given the option to put on a white belt.  Maybe it should not have been optional.  Call a spade a spade.


That is what we do. I am never going to take a belt from someone who earned it, or even if the just thought they did. I always meet with new/old students and try to get a feel for where they are. I am straight up honest and tell them what I think is ahead and give them my recommendation. Some start back at white and possibly jump test if they are rapidly getting up to speed. Some just keep their belt for how ever long it takes to get there.


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## dvcochran (Feb 11, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This is a sad state of affairs I have lamented for decades.  It's not a new problem, but probably getting worse.  Karate has never been unified like judo or kendo, with a more or less central authority (in Japan, with quasi government connections. May have happened if not for WW II.)  There are many styles, and in the West, little or no central authority within each individual style.  Thus, each dojo's sensei is the sole determiner of belt qualifications.  Expectations have largely degraded over the years due to:
> 
> Commercialization.  Lessening of peer pressure amongst other sensei due to the sheer numbers nowadays - it's not a close knit black belt        community anymore.  Time separation from the ideals held by the previous masters - and maybe a corresponding loss of respect of the old karate.  A feeling of entitlement by some sensei that allows them to do what they want, regardless of the previous point.  And a general dumbing down of our society, where high school graduates barely read or know how to critically think - expectations have lowered overall.
> 
> ...



Agree. I have been in a lot of different schools and can honestly say very few of them are truly cookie cutter. Even schools doing the same form set(s). 
In my opinion that is a Very, very good thing.


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

Danny T said:


> So when you go into another TKD school you go with a sense of self governing, authoritative, and independent with your actions?
> I would be humble and gracious and never with a sense of autonomy and authority.
> Am I miss understanding something?



Yes, you are.

If I go into a school and I'm a white belt, I can't be an instructor.  Even if I go in as an advanced belt or a lower ranking black belt, there's a chance I wouldn't have that opportunity.  Let's look at it a different way.  I plan to open my own school eventually.  If my current school shut down (for whatever reason) and I had to go to a new school, or if I got laid off and had to move to find work, I wouldn't want to be set back in doing so.  If I have to start over, then I have to add that many years before I can get the certifications I'd need to run my own school within the organization.

I would definitely be humble and try to learn their stuff their way.  But I also don't want to reset my years of progress climbing the ranks just because I changed schools.



dvcochran said:


> So did this girl stick it out and get up to par? If so did it really matter? Especially if everyone saw what it took for her to get there.



She stuck it out and improved.  It mattered because for several months, she felt humiliated every time we ran drills as a class.  Everyone was supportive of her, but it was still humiliating that she was so far behind everyone else.  I shouldn't have to explain why it's important for a young girl to feel confident instead of embarrassed.


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## dvcochran (Feb 11, 2020)

skribs said:


> but it was still humiliating that she was so far behind





skribs said:


> I shouldn't have to explain why it's important for a young girl to feel confident instead of embarrassed.



If she stuck it out she was not humiliated for very long. Disappointed in the previous training? Frustrated at times? Likely.

I suspect she had a ton of confidence that you just never saw. Takes a big person to overcome such a setback.


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## skribs (Feb 11, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> If she stuck it out she was not humiliated for very long. Disappointed in the previous training? Frustrated at times? Likely.
> 
> I suspect she had a ton of confidence that you just never saw. Takes a big person to overcome such a setback.



Is this another case of you trying to tell me you know more about my experiences than I do?


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## dvcochran (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Is this another case of you trying to tell me you know more about my experiences than I do?


No; It is a reflection of something I have learned from my lifetime of experiences. 
You put up your threads and then get offended when people give answers when they do not fit your narrow frame of mind. That is not gaining wisdom. That is fitting an agenda.  That is on you. I suggest you actually think and learn from some of the answers instead of just putting up another thread before you have processed the last one. 

I appreciate the fact that you put of lots of threads. They are sometimes enlightening and sometimes entertaining.


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> No; It is a reflection of something I have learned from my lifetime of experiences.
> You put up your threads and then get offended when people give answers when they do not fit your narrow frame of mind. That is not gaining wisdom. That is fitting an agenda.  That is on you. I suggest you actually think and learn from some of the answers instead of just putting up another thread before you have processed the last one.
> 
> I appreciate the fact that you put of lots of threads. They are sometimes enlightening and sometimes entertaining.



I get offended when people make assumptions about my experiences and try to tell me they know more about my experience than I do.

I watched this girl be frustrated and embarrassed for months, and you're like "well maybe she was actually confident."  You weren't there.  You don't know.


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## dvcochran (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> I get offended when people make assumptions about my experiences and try to tell me they know more about my experience than I do.
> 
> I watched this girl be frustrated and embarrassed for months, and you're like "well maybe she was actually confident."  You weren't there.  You don't know.


You saw her from the outside. From your posts you never appreciated the strength she was showing by fighting through the adversity. That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others.


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> You saw her from the outside. From your posts you never appreciated the strength she was showing by fighting through the adversity. That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others.



First off, where did I show that I didn't appreciate it?  I did.  But that came after months of humiliation.  I don't think that humiliation is a pre-requisite for strength.  I think she would have been better served being in a class that would boost her confidence instead of one that would shatter it every day for months.  Did she overcome it in the long run?  Yes.  Would she still have experienced frustration and growth in a lower class?  Also yes.  And she might have grown faster if she wasn't being pushed so hard.

It's like when you're lifting weights.  If your max single-rep is 90 pounds, you don't load up 90 pounds.  You load up 70 pounds and do several reps.  That's how you grow faster.  You don't get more gains by making it harder on yourself.  You gain more gains by being realistic about your current level, and then pushing yourself.  In this story, it's more like she was loaded with 150 pounds, and had to have a spotter help her with every rep.

I do love the added insult at the end, though.  Where you make baseless assumptions about me, and then tell me I'm bad at my job based on those assumptions.


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## dvcochran (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Where you make baseless assumptions about me, and then tell me I'm bad at my job based on those assumptions.


No digs but I would be remiss if I did not give an experienced comment to a potential future instructor. 

Please do not put words in my mouth. You ask for opinion/advise yet get easily offended when it is given. 

I bet the girl will have a good life story to tell and help others down the road. Adversity is an excellent teacher.


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> No digs but I would be remiss if I did not give an experienced comment to a potential future instructor.
> 
> Please do not put words in my mouth. You ask for opinion/advise yet get easily offended when it is given.
> 
> I bet the girl will have a good life story to tell and help others down the road. Adversity is an excellent teacher.



I *am *an instructor, not a future instructor.  

You said "That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others."  Right after you put words in my mouth and made baseless assumptions about me.  I did not put words into your mouth.  You did put words into mine.  Now you're just being a hypocrite.

You're also the only person I'm arguing with in this thread.  Out of 10 people, I'm arguing with 1 person.  9 out of 10 people I'm fine with.  You assume I'm easily offended because I don't like what you have to say.  Maybe it's because what you say is offensive, and not because I'm easily offended.  But of course, it's easier to say "you're easily offended" because I don't worship the pixels you type on, than to admit that maybe you've got a part in me being offended.


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## dvcochran (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> I *am *an instructor, not a future instructor.
> 
> You said "That is a poor quality for someone aspiring to instruct others."  Right after you put words in my mouth and made baseless assumptions about me.  I did not put words into your mouth.  You did put words into mine.  Now you're just being a hypocrite.
> 
> You're also the only person I'm arguing with in this thread.  Out of 10 people, I'm arguing with 1 person.  9 out of 10 people I'm fine with.  You assume I'm easily offended because I don't like what you have to say.  Maybe it's because what you say is offensive, and not because I'm easily offended.  But of course, it's easier to say "you're easily offended" because I don't worship the pixels you type on, than to admit that maybe you've got a part in me being offended.



Funny. You have repeatedly mentioned you aspire to open your own school (an instructor). Helping out with classes or even leading a kids class is a LONG way from owning your own school. 
Trying to help someone in that endeavor is my goal. If you cannot not take my candid advise you have a Big hill to climb.


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Funny. You have repeatedly mentioned you aspire to open your own school (an instructor). Helping out with classes or even leading a kids class is a LONG way from owning your own school.



When I open my own school I will be a chief instructor or master.  As it stands, I am an instructor at my school.

The difference is in the level of control I will have.  Right now, I have to teach my Master's curriculum his way.  As a chief instructor, I would teach my Master's curriculum my way, or as a Master I could have my own curriculum for the students.



> Trying to help someone in that endeavor is my goal. If you cannot not take my candid advise you have a Big hill to climb.



Just how arrogant are you?  You think people can't succeed without your advice?  Believe it or not, I do read all the advice you give me.  I just reject most of it, because I don't think it's good advice.  You just can't handle that rejection, and try to make it my fault that you're giving bad advice.


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## wab25 (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> Autonomy and authority.


So, just for giggles here... What happens when, for whatever reason, you change schools? You take your autonomy and authority over to a new school, and you find out that you are the little girl you told us about. In other words, at the new school, your 3rd degree black belt skills don't measure up to their black belt standards... but they do measure up to a blue or yellow belt in the new school. What do you then do with your autonomy and authority? Do you still expect to be an instructor there? Do you follow the example of the girl, and stick it out until you do measure up? Or do you go find a different school?



skribs said:


> I also don't want to reset my years of progress *climbing the ranks*


Just an observation here. Many of the folks on this site that you argue with, are not trying to "climb the ranks." They are trying to study an art. They are trying to improve what they do. They are going deep into the movements and techniques, trying to learn not only what to do, but why and how it works, and when, and what is the philosophy behind, the strategy, the core principles... Whatever their rank may be, is not important, but the understanding they have gained is. 

Yes, different folks like different things. And on this board we are friendly and try to be positive and supportive. We need to understand that some people here are mostly concerned with climbing ranks and gaining authority. And if that what martial arts does for you, thats great. But when you ask questions here... you need to realize that you will then get answers from a lot of people... many of those people don't care about the rank climbing business, but about gaining a deeper understanding of the arts. They are going to give you different answers, because they have a very different view of what martial arts are about. It doesn't make either side wrong... because both sides are actually dealing with different problems. If you want to open your own school, and be the master, it would be good to understand both mindsets... or your potential student pool will be cut in half, if you don't understand what the other type of student wants. Note that I am not saying it is right or wrong to cut your potential student pool in half. (I do it with my class... if a new student shows up to my class wanting to collect another black belt to put on their wall... I used to send them to the martial arts store, before it closed down... now I send them to the closest strip mall McDojo... The Walmart down the street from us had McDojo in it for a while... it was great! Yes it would be easier to make rent if I took them all... )


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## dvcochran (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> When I open my own school I will be a chief instructor or master.  As it stands, I am an instructor at my school.
> 
> The difference is in the level of control I will have.  Right now, I have to teach my Master's curriculum his way.  As a chief instructor, I would teach my Master's curriculum my way, or as a Master I could have my own curriculum for the students.
> 
> ...


Best of luck with all your lofty titles. You certainly need all the help you can get.


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

wab25 said:


> So, just for giggles here... What happens when, for whatever reason, you change schools? You take your autonomy and authority over to a new school, and you find out that you are the little girl you told us about. In other words, at the new school, your 3rd degree black belt skills don't measure up to their black belt standards... but they do measure up to a blue or yellow belt in the new school. What do you then do with your autonomy and authority? Do you still expect to be an instructor there? Do you follow the example of the girl, and stick it out until you do measure up? Or do you go find a different school?



I don't honestly know.  If I did join a new school and my skills were found to be lacking, first I'd be very surprised to find my skills are that low, considering what I'm capable of doing.  If I did, I would try and decide whether this new school has ridiculously high standards and I shouldn't waste my time, or if there are definitely things I can improve by being there.  If I am at the level of their yellow belts, I certainly wouldn't pretend or try to be an instructor, because I wouldn't have much to offer them.



wab25 said:


> Just an observation here. Many of the folks on this site that you argue with, are not trying to "climb the ranks." They are trying to study an art. They are trying to improve what they do. They are going deep into the movements and techniques, trying to learn not only what to do, but why and how it works, and when, and what is the philosophy behind, the strategy, the core principles... Whatever their rank may be, is not important, but the understanding they have gained is.



I'm trying to learn all of those as well.  I think that both extreme ends of the argument ("rank is meaningless" and "rank is everything") are both wrong.  A lot of people key in on one thing and think it's the most important thing, and forget about a lot of the other stuff.

For example, at my old job at the help desk, we get told that our tickets are open too long, and we need to start closing tickets faster.  So what do half the techs say?  "They only care about ticket times."
Then we get told that we need to get more customer comment cards filled out.  Now half the techs are saying "They can't make up their minds.  First it's only ticket times, now all they care about is comment cards."

It was never the case that ticket times or comment cards were the only metrics that management cared about.  Both were important, and not at the exclusion of other metrics that weren't mentioned.  But because it was brought up as a strategic goal in a meeting, the assumption is that's the only thing that matters.  This is how I feel about rank.  Rank isn't the only thing to gain, but it's still important.


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## wab25 (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> If I did join a new school and my skills were found to be lacking, first I'd be very surprised to find my skills are that low, considering what I'm capable of doing.


This describes the way everyone feels, when they leave one school for another. I would guess even the girl you told us about. What matters is what you do once you find out.


skribs said:


> I think that both extreme ends of the argument ("rank is meaningless" and "rank is everything") are both wrong.


Not wrong, different. They have different needs, different wants and different goals. Is it wrong to call the down block by its Korean name or Japanese name or Chinese name or English name? Sure, they are different, but not necessarily wrong. If you are studying a Japanese art, use the Japanese name. If you are studying a Chinese art, use the Chinese name.


skribs said:


> A lot of people key in on one thing and think it's the most important thing, and forget about a lot of the other stuff.


Some people want one thing and not the other. Its not that they forget the other stuff... they don't care about it, as it does not pertain to their goal. If my goal is to learn a Japanese art, its not that I forget the Korean name or the Chinese, its that I don't care about those names, as my goal is to learn the Japanese form. I may never even learn those other names, as they don't pertain to my goal. But, when I come to a forum like this one and ask a question, I will get answers from Korean arts, Chinese arts, Russian arts.... and maybe even Japanese arts. It doesn't do me any good to get upset that they don't call it Gedan Barai. Nor are they wrong if their first form/kata does not start with Gedan Barai. It means we have different goals, and have found different solutions. But we can still share what we have learned with each other... even if the other guy does it in the wrong order, and uses the wrong name... because to him, we are the other guy.

This place is not about authority, or pulling rank or showing people that they are wrong. Its about sharing what we have learned in the hope that it may help someone else. If it doesn't help, move along... it may help someone else. I doubt it was put here with the intent to offend.


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

wab25 said:


> This describes the way everyone feels, when they leave one school for another. I would guess even the girl you told us about. What matters is what you do once you find out.
> Not wrong, different. They have different needs, different wants and different goals. Is it wrong to call the down block by its Korean name or Japanese name or Chinese name or English name? Sure, they are different, but not necessarily wrong. If you are studying a Japanese art, use the Japanese name. If you are studying a Chinese art, use the Chinese name.
> Some people want one thing and not the other. Its not that they forget the other stuff... they don't care about it, as it does not pertain to their goal. If my goal is to learn a Japanese art, its not that I forget the Korean name or the Chinese, its that I don't care about those names, as my goal is to learn the Japanese form. I may never even learn those other names, as they don't pertain to my goal. But, when I come to a forum like this one and ask a question, I will get answers from Korean arts, Chinese arts, Russian arts.... and maybe even Japanese arts. It doesn't do me any good to get upset that they don't call it Gedan Barai. Nor are they wrong if their first form/kata does not start with Gedan Barai. It means we have different goals, and have found different solutions. But we can still share what we have learned with each other... even if the other guy does it in the wrong order, and uses the wrong name... because to him, we are the other guy.
> 
> This place is not about authority, or pulling rank or showing people that they are wrong. Its about sharing what we have learned in the hope that it may help someone else. If it doesn't help, move along... it may help someone else. I doubt it was put here with the intent to offend.



To be clear, when I said "authority and autonomy," it was in answer to the specific question of why it's important to be a higher belt.  The higher the rank, the more freedom I have.  A lot of that is in line with what you're saying.  

Let's role-play a little bit:  You're my Taekwondo Master.  You have us learn the Korean names of techniques, because you feel it's more precise and better preserves the history of Taekwondo.  I prefer using English, because I struggle learning new languages and I think it's easier for students to learn the technique if they don't also have to learn a new language with it.  However, because you're the Master and I'm teaching under you, I have to teach the Korean names.  

If I am a higher rank and I have my own school under your banner, maybe I decide to teach the techniques in English.  I still have to teach your techniques and still have to use your forms.  But I at least get to run my classes a little bit different.

If I am an even higher rank and I have my own school under my own name, I have more freedom still.  I can teach the forms I want and the techniques I want.  It doesn't make you wrong or me wrong.  It's that I have different goals and different methods of achieving those goals.  Without that rank, I'm not afforded the freedom to do things my own way.  (Or I can go unfederated and take that freedom, but without the backing of a worldwide organization).

I know you're a Karate guy and not a TKD guy, but I was just using you as an example because your name is right in front of me at the moment.  This is why rank is important to me.  So that as I learn more from more and more people (whether it's from MartialTalk, Reddit, Youtube, or when I finally get around to cross-training something outside of my dojang) I have the freedom to use that knowledge the way I see fit.


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## dvcochran (Feb 12, 2020)

skribs said:


> I don't honestly know. If I did join a new school and my skills were found to be lacking, first I'd be very surprised to find my skills are that low, considering what I'm capable of doing. If I did, I would try and decide whether this new school has ridiculously high standards and I shouldn't waste my time, or if there are definitely things I can improve by being there.



So let's change @wab25 's very good argument slightly. Let's say you change schools and find you are not up the level of the 1st Dan's or even 1st Gup's. What do you do?


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## skribs (Feb 12, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> So let's change @wab25 's very good argument slightly. Let's say you change schools and find you are not up the level of the 1st Dan's or even 1st Gup's. What do you do?



I'd give the same answer in that scenario.

I'd be a bit caught off-guard
Decide whether I think it would benefit me more to stay there and improve, or to leave and find somewhere else to train.
It would depend on whether my lower quality is because they have a better curriculum or better instruction; or if it's because they're training for the Olympics and I'm never going to be an Olympian?

Either way, I don't think it would happen that way.  What's more likely is I'd have to catch up on their curriculum and their way of doing things, but that's going to be more in line with what @wab25 said in post #36.

Unless I do what I'm planning on, which is to take another art (I'd like to train BJJ after I get my 5th Dan in TKD), in which case I'd obviously be a white belt because I have no rank or experience in BJJ.

_Edited a couple times because I accidentally hit "submit" before I was finished typing._


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## Parzival (Feb 12, 2020)

IMO belts should stay white, like how they've done for literally thousands of years. Coloured belts are a new, western invention and they serve no purpose other than to boost a students ego and boost the instructors wallet size. They're useful for seeing who has skill and who doesn't on a quick glance but if you walk into the gym and if you observe you will quickly see who has skill, who doesn't, and who's been training for a long time and who are beginners. They're useful for setting up divisions in tournaments but I'm pretty sure there are other means to do that which don't jeopardize the tradition that martial artists care so much about


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## JR 137 (Feb 13, 2020)

Parzival said:


> IMO belts should stay white, like how they've done for literally thousands of years. Coloured belts are a new, western invention and they serve no purpose other than to boost a students ego and boost the instructors wallet size. They're useful for seeing who has skill and who doesn't on a quick glance but if you walk into the gym and if you observe you will quickly see who has skill, who doesn't, and who's been training for a long time and who are beginners. They're useful for setting up divisions in tournaments but I'm pretty sure there are other means to do that which don't jeopardize the tradition that martial artists care so much about


Belts are a Japanese invention, not western. Judo founder Jigoro Kano “invented” them.

People didn’t wear white belts for thousands of years. The white belt is also credited to Kano, along with the gi (uniform), around the early 1900s. Before that, they wore regular clothes.


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## dvcochran (Feb 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Belts are a Japanese invention, not western. Judo founder Jigoro Kano “invented” them.
> 
> People didn’t wear white belts for thousands of years. The white belt is also credited to Kano, along with the gi (uniform), around the early 1900s. Before that, they wore regular clothes.


JR, is there any truth to the old lore that a person gained their 'black belt' by literally working out hard and long enough for their white belt to turn black from use?


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## Parzival (Feb 13, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Belts are a Japanese invention, not western. Judo founder Jigoro Kano “invented” them.
> 
> People didn’t wear white belts for thousands of years. The white belt is also credited to Kano, along with the gi (uniform), around the early 1900s. Before that, they wore regular clothes.


Damn okay, I wasn't expecting to get schooled lol


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## skribs (Feb 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> JR, is there any truth to the old lore that a person gained their 'black belt' by literally working out hard and long enough for their white belt to turn black from use?



The most believable lore I heard is that dan ranks are based on the ranks for the game Go.


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## JR 137 (Feb 13, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> JR, is there any truth to the old lore that a person gained their 'black belt' by literally working out hard and long enough for their white belt to turn black from use?


Not that I’m aware of. What I’ve read, and it makes perfect sense...

Jigoro Kano brought a group of students to train with another judo school (that school was headed by one of Kano’s top students). The head of that school asked Kano which ones were the top students so he can group his top guys with Kano’s. Kano decided to tie black fabric around their waists. 

Shortly thereafter, Kano devised the dan and kyu system. The same system (relatively) was also used in swimming and the game Go. Kyu ranks all wore white belts initially. One of Kano’s students teaching abroad (Spain or France?) introduced the various colors for kyu ranks. Kano liked it, so he implemented it across judo.

Kano was a big influence and helper in Funakoshi bringing karate to Japan. Funakoshi adopted Kano’s kyu dan system. 

Stuff I’ve gathered from various sources. Those sources seem quite credible, as does the story itself.


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## JR 137 (Feb 13, 2020)

Parzival said:


> Damn okay, I wasn't expecting to get schooled lol


I’ve been schooled way too many times


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## marques (Feb 16, 2020)

skribs said:


> But if I go to another TKD school, you bet I want to be treated as a 3rd degree black belt.
> ...
> 
> The belts themselves are meaningless.



If belts are really meaningless, don’t worry. But if you get different training opportunities, I know very well the issue. I was able to spar competitively with high ranks (karate, Thai boxing...) but rarely given the opportunity as ‘white belt’. (Without the best part, I was dropping out soon.)

I think everyone should be reevaluated when moving between organisations and belts within organisations should be levelled (as much as feasible).


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## mrt2 (Feb 16, 2020)

skribs said:


> *BLUF:  It is a disservice to your students to have a longer expected time to reach black belt than other schools of the same art, style, lineage, or federation.*
> 
> One thing I've been thinking about recently is how different schools within the same lineage might have different timings for when belts are earned.  For example, my TKD school it's usually 4-5 years to earn black belt.  Some schools are 1 or 2 years, other schools want to prove that their black belts earned it by making them take 8-10 years.
> 
> ...



A lot has already been said, and I will try not to repeat points already made.  This is my perspective and observations as someone with 2 years TKD experience, and previously, 3 years of Tang Soo Do.

Despite the fact that I was a black belt candidate in Tang Soo Do with 3 years experience, because of the 3 decades plus of not training and the fact that the forms in Tang Soo Do are different from Tae Kwon Do forms, my instructor made me start over as a white belt. And that was probably for the best.  I was certainly not ready to line up as a brown, high brown or probationary black belt two years ago, and may have been overwhelmed and exhausted trying to hang with higher belts in class.

In two years, I have caught up and gone past people who were intermediate, and in some cases advanced students.  Why?  Well a couple of reasons.  Once I shook the rust off and started to get in better shape, the muscle memory came back and I was able to absorb the curriculum faster than some other people.  And, I have maintained consistency over 2 years of 3 to 4 classes per week, every week, without taking "breaks." I put that in quotes because it seems to be the favorite excuse/explanation for a whole bunch of students at my school who don't train consistently.  And whether the break is short, like 3 or 4 weeks or long, like 6 months or more, these breaks tend to slow progress.  Some people, like one woman I know, stay in shape through the breaks so the only obstacle to her progress is mental.  Others come back noticeably out of shape, so not only do they need to catch up with the curriculum,, but they also need about 6 to 12 weeks to get back into shape before they can start to get better at MA.

To apply these lessons to the points made by OP, if a person comes in as a black belt from another school, there are many variables to consider when they come in, such as the quality of the instruction at the old school, a difference in curriculum such that the new student has to learn new stuff  such as forms or do the curriculum a different way, whether the student has kept up with his or her training, and if he or she has not, how long has the student been away.  With younger people, I have noticed some pick up new things quickly while others struggle to absorb each new technique.  I have seen a few children come over from other schools wearing high belts, and seen many struggle.  I cannot say if it is because the old school was a McDojo, or if the student has been away from training long enough for his or her skills to erode.  either way, I think it is prudent for the instructor at the new school after a week or so of evaluation to sit down with the student and have an honest discussion about where that student is compared to the students at the new school.  Because while it is hard on the ego to be told that your black belt at the old school is really closer to a high green or purple belt at a new school, it is even worse to wear that black belt and struggle for months getting your butt kicked by an unfamiliar or challenging curriculum or regularly  by lower belts in sparring.


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## dvcochran (Feb 16, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> I have maintained consistency over 2 years of 3 to 4 classes per week, every week, without taking "breaks.



Very well said and BIG Kudos to you for doing this. 



mrt2 said:


> I think it is prudent for the instructor at the new school after a week or so of evaluation to sit down with the student and have an honest discussion about where that student is compared to the students at the new school.


I do exactly what you describe. I meet with every new/old student and tell them up front what I think they need to expect. I will never take a someone's black belt (or any belt) unless they choose to start back at a lower level After a week or so I circle back and see if their viewpoint has changed. Typically three things happen; they give up and stop working out (maybe because ego got in the way), they keep their belt and suck it up for a while, or they start back at lower belt and sometimes jump test if they are deserving. 
There is value in the latter two from different perspectives.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 16, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> The white belt is also credited to Kano, along with the gi (uniform), around the early 1900s. Before that, they wore regular clothes.



QUOTE="JR 137, post: 1989256, member: 33527"]adopted Kano’s kyu dan syste[/QUOTE]

Okinawans wore hardly any clothes until 1930 or so.  The old photos I've seen have them in just shorts and maybe a tank top (it is hot and humid over there.) As with the gi, the Okinawans didn't adopt the kyu/dan system till sometime later than the Japanese.  The styles were not unified like the Japanese, but to help blend into their society and facilitate karate's acceptance there, they went along with the program.  This was about the same time the kanji for "karate" was changed to mean empty hands instead of Chinese hands.  Funakoshi may not have been particularly fond of all this Japanization, but was wise enough to go with the flow.


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## JR 137 (Feb 17, 2020)

I’m pretty sure attempts were made by various Okinawan teachers to unify, or better yet have a panel to loosely govern standards. Problem was no one could agree to much, and they asked themselves why they really needed all of that anyway.

I can’t remember where I read about that. It was 2 or 3 different previous generation guys. Gushi of Pangai Noon/Uechi Ryu I believe was one of them who spoke about it. Possibly Juhatsu Kyodo of Toon Ryu as well.


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## JR 137 (Feb 17, 2020)

Previous post was directed to @isshinryuronin post. I tried to quote but stuff got messed up.


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## dvcochran (Feb 17, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I’m pretty sure attempts were made by various Okinawan teachers to unify, or better yet have a panel to loosely govern standards. Problem was no one could agree to much, and they asked themselves why they really needed all of that anyway.
> 
> I can’t remember where I read about that. It was 2 or 3 different previous generation guys. Gushi of Pangai Noon/Uechi Ryu I believe was one of them who spoke about it. Possibly Juhatsu Kyodo of Toon Ryu as well.


That is one thing I can agree that Korean's have done a pretty good job of. The Kukkiwon/WT unification has been a very good thing in terms of identity and popularity. It has gotten a bit sideways over time with some of the rules changes but they are doing a good job of staying 'cutting edge' with the scoring systems/tools they use. 
I do think schools that have gone totally sport oriented have lost their 'way' (Do).


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 18, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> I’m pretty sure attempts were made by various Okinawan teachers to unify, or better yet have a panel to loosely govern standards. Problem was no one could agree to much, and they asked themselves why they really needed all of that anyway.
> 
> I can’t remember where I read about that. It was 2 or 3 different previous generation guys. Gushi of Pangai Noon/Uechi Ryu I believe was one of them who spoke about it. Possibly Juhatsu Kyodo of Toon Ryu as well.



I'm not surprised they did not unify.  The Okinawans were a feisty bunch and not as conformist as the Japanese.  There is a saying in Japan:  "The protruding nail gets hammered down," so not as much individuality perhaps as in the Ryukyu islands.



dvcochran said:


> That is one thing I can agree that Korean's have done a pretty good job of. The Kukkiwon/WT unification has been a very good thing in terms of identity and popularity. It has gotten a bit sideways over time with some of the rules changes but they are doing a good job of staying 'cutting edge' with the scoring systems/tools they use.
> 
> I do think schools that have gone totally sport oriented have lost their 'way' (Do).



The Koreans have done a great job in spreading their art in the USA.  This may have been part of a grand design.  I remember that in about 1973/74 there was gossip in some karate circles of a planned, organized Korean penetration into the USA commercialized school market.  There was indeed a seemingly large influx of Korean "masters" opening dojangs.  Not sure whether it was centrally directed, or it just happened that a bunch of TDK guys decided on their own to start schools here to make a buck.

Your last sentence re: sport oriented schools have lost the "Do" is not a new sentiment.  A couple famous karate masters expressed the same feeling in their books................in the 1930's.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2020)

skribs said:


> Yes, you are.
> 
> If I go into a school and I'm a white belt, I can't be an instructor.  Even if I go in as an advanced belt or a lower ranking black belt, there's a chance I wouldn't have that opportunity.  Let's look at it a different way.  I plan to open my own school eventually.  If my current school shut down (for whatever reason) and I had to go to a new school, or if I got laid off and had to move to find work, I wouldn't want to be set back in doing so.  If I have to start over, then I have to add that many years before I can get the certifications I'd need to run my own school within the organization.
> 
> ...


A thought on this side-thread: if I was the instructor (I don't know what yours did, so this is nothing to impugn their choices), I'd have offered her to drop down in rank to not have that feeling, to train in lower classes while retaining her rank, or some other option to get up to speed and feel like her rank matches others'. Feeling like you don't deserve the rank you're wearing in class is no fun.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> If she stuck it out she was not humiliated for very long. Disappointed in the previous training? Frustrated at times? Likely.
> 
> I suspect she had a ton of confidence that you just never saw. Takes a big person to overcome such a setback.


I have to disagree with the premise in this, DV. She probably gained a lot of confidence in the long run, but suffered quite a bit of humiliation (early on) and lack of confidence over time. It's good that she stuck it out, but that doesn't mean she didn't deal with some **** in her head for quite a while. I've seen similar when folks joined our dojo from other schools. One of them, my instructor had me give him weekly private lessons for a couple of months to get him up to speed to retain his rank.


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## JR 137 (Feb 18, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I'm not surprised they did not unify.  The Okinawans were a feisty bunch and not as conformist as the Japanese.  There is a saying in Japan:  "The protruding nail gets hammered down," so not as much individuality perhaps as in the Ryukyu islands.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Going by memory a of few brief things that were said on the topic...

I think the unification was more of a common curriculum to teach kids in school than anything else. That and I believe a panel for dan ranking and recognition of ryuha/schools. Miyagi in his very few written texts wrote about this too. 

Evidence of the attempt of a common curriculum is the Gekisai/Fukyu kata co-developed by Miyagi and the other high profile person who constantly escapes my memory in this discussion. 

I think the common school PE curriculum was the biggest driver and what held it together for the time it did, but ultimately it just went away. Maybe WW2 had something to do with it? I don’t have a timeline, so I could be way off. Probably not because I think Gekisai/Fukyu was close to Miyagi’s death, which was after WW2.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Fukyu kata


Man, I'm 12 years old sometimes.


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## JR 137 (Feb 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Man, I'm 12 years old sometimes.


It never gets old. 

And guys don’t grow up; we just get older.


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## skribs (Feb 18, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> It never gets old.
> 
> And guys don’t grow up; we just get older.



"Men don't grow up, we just learn how to act in public."  That's the way I always heard it.

I remember a while back, when I worked as a courtesy clerk at a grocery store.  I was helping a lady to her car, and she was telling me about her three young boys and how all they care about is burps and farts.  I said "in about ten years they'll add girls to the list, and then that's all the growing up they'll ever do."


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## dvcochran (Feb 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I have to disagree with the premise in this, DV. She probably gained a lot of confidence in the long run, but suffered quite a bit of humiliation (early on) and lack of confidence over time. It's good that she stuck it out, but that doesn't mean she didn't deal with some **** in her head for quite a while. I've seen similar when folks joined our dojo from other schools. One of them, my instructor had me give him weekly private lessons for a couple of months to get him up to speed to retain his rank.


I can see that. Saying she had confidence (or started with it) may be a bit overstated. She toughed it out and I would have noticed.  That is a strong character quality.


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## skribs (Feb 18, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I can see that. Saying she had confidence (or started with it) may be a bit overstated. She toughed it out and I would have noticed.  That is a strong character quality.



I will definitely agree with you here.

But here's what would have happened if she was a red belt instead of black belt.  After her first couple classes, my Master would have had her and her dad come into the office for a private meeting.  He would have explained that the techniques she knows is what we expect in our purple belt class.  She would have been embarrassed (but behind closed doors, so it's not in front of everyone).  Her Dad would have been disappointed, but understanding.  After that, she'd have started purple belt class as a purple belt, and would learn the techniques and forms that are appropriate to her level.

She'd still have the embarrassment of being in over her head.  But after a week or two in class, she'd be in a class where she could thrive and grow.  Instead of the months she had to put up with it being in black belt class.

And it's not that we humiliated her.  Everyone was supportive and understanding of her.  I just felt bad for her, (and a little angry at whoever gave her a black belt) more than anything else.


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## JR 137 (Feb 18, 2020)

skribs said:


> "Men don't grow up, we just learn how to act in public."  That's the way I always heard it.
> 
> I remember a while back, when I worked as a courtesy clerk at a grocery store.  I was helping a lady to her car, and she was telling me about her three young boys and how all they care about is burps and farts.  I said "in about ten years they'll add girls to the list, and then that's all the growing up they'll ever do."


And hitting each other in the nuts.

And we’re really not all that good in public.


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## skribs (Feb 18, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> And hitting each other in the nuts.



I don't need other people for that.  I got nunchucks.  I'm fully capable of hitting myself in the nuts.


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## JR 137 (Feb 18, 2020)

Proof of we don’t grow up...

A few months back, a friend of mine had a bunch of people over to his house. A lot of us haven’t seen each other in 10+ years. We’re all mid 40s with spouses, kids, etc. Life just gets in the way and you start to lose touch after a while. Most of us went to high school together, but there were people in our crew from other schools too. There were about 30 of us, guys and girls.

What did the guys do? We started hitting each other in the nuts. And busting balls (no pun intended). At the end of the night one of our female friends is about to leave, and another guy and I were on our way out too. We told her we’d walk her out. She looked as us with this smirk and said “if I didn’t know you guys, I’d be really weirded out by two guys offering to walk me to my car while grabbing themselves.” Another woman says “yeah, what the hell are you guys doing?” We started laughing I said “we’re covering up because we’ve been hitting each other in the nuts all night.” My buddy’s sister who’s randomly walking by says “you guys are still doing that crap? What’s wrong with you?” Laughing, I said “look around. Some of us have gray hair, some of us lost our hair, and all of us got fatter. But none of us have grown up at all. Guys don’t grow up, we just get older.” There wasn’t a person there that wasn’t laughing hysterically and agreeing.

The whole night was honestly like none of us ever lost touch with each other. We picked up right where we left off.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 18, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Proof of we don’t grow up....


- Before growing up, you usually cry and then end with laughing.
- After growing up, you usually laugh and then end with crying.

- Before growing up, you pretend you are sad everyday.
- After growing up, you pretend you are happy everyday.

In school, I wrote the following poem (I made an "A" in that English class). Today, I don't think I can have that kind of feeling.

Craw weep in the dark.
Tide bellow in the north wind.
How lonesome the world.

Before growing up, you pretend you are sad, "I'm alone, The time when you read this, I'll be gone ..."


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 18, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> Evidence of the attempt of a common curriculum is the Gekisai/Fukyu kata co-developed by Miyagi and the other high profile person who constantly escapes my memory in this discussion.


Nagamine Shoshin?  He was a Shorinryu guy, though he also trained under Motobu Choki, if memory serves.  If not him, maybe Itosu Anko.  Neither one was Goju, but many of the old masters worked together, if not to unify into one system, at least to encourage the growth of karate-do.

By the way, Nagamine has a book about notable Okinawan MA masters.  Worth reading.


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## Buka (Feb 18, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I'm not surprised they did not unify.  The Okinawans were a feisty bunch and not as conformist as the Japanese.  There is a saying in Japan:  "The protruding nail gets hammered down," so not as much individuality perhaps as in the Ryukyu islands.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I remember that well. I’ve been pretty much at war with them ever since.

What can I say, I’m an American heathen.


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## mrt2 (Feb 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Very well said and BIG Kudos to you for doing this.
> 
> 
> I do exactly what you describe. I meet with every new/old student and tell them up front what I think they need to expect. I will never take a someone's black belt (or any belt) unless they choose to start back at a lower level After a week or so I circle back and see if their viewpoint has changed. Typically three things happen;  *they give up and stop working out (maybe because ego got in the way), they keep their belt and suck it up for a while, or theystart back at lower belt and sometimes jump test if they are deserving.*
> There is value in the latter two from different perspectives.


Yesterday, I showed up a little early in class at my school's smaller location and was helping out with the kid's intermediate class that happens just before the adult class starts.   There were two new kids wearing belt colors different from what our school uses, so I knew these were kids that came over from another school.  And they were lined up at the head of the class because, in theory, they were advanced belts (one had a combination red/black belt and the other a black belt with a white stripe.)  While the instructor worked with most of the class, I along with another adult black belt were working with these two kids trying to teach them our beginning forms.  I was trying to work with this one kid on Do San, which is the form we teach to high yellow belts, which makes it pretty much of a beginner form.  The poor kid was literally tripping over himself trying to perform the relatively simple moves of the form, and he was struggling to get the pattern down.  

I can see our head instructor will have to have a discussion with this kid's parents as there is no way these kids can be awarded a high brown or probationary black belt, and in fact at this point they are not even at the green belt level for our school.  There is no way these kids can tough it out.  They really need to start over and probably demand a refund from whoever the instructor was who awarded them those high belts from the other school.  I am not saying that all of our junior black belts are serious badasses, but they are all at least a year or two ahead of the two kids I was working with yesterday.


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## dvcochran (Feb 19, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> Yesterday, I showed up a little early in class at my school's smaller location and was helping out with the kid's intermediate class that happens just before the adult class starts.   There were two new kids wearing belt colors different from what our school uses, so I knew these were kids that came over from another school.  And they were lined up at the head of the class because, in theory, they were advanced belts (one had a combination red/black belt and the other a black belt with a white stripe.)  While the instructor worked with most of the class, I along with another adult black belt were working with these two kids trying to teach them our beginning forms.  I was trying to work with this one kid on Do San, which is the form we teach to high yellow belts, which makes it pretty much of a beginner form.  The poor kid was literally tripping over himself trying to perform the relatively simple moves of the form, and he was struggling to get the pattern down.
> 
> I can see our head instructor will have to have a discussion with this kid's parents as there is no way these kids can be awarded a high brown or probationary black belt, and in fact at this point they are not even at the green belt level for our school.  There is no way these kids can tough it out.  They really need to start over and probably demand a refund from whoever the instructor was who awarded them those high belts from the other school.  I am not saying that all of our junior black belts are serious badasses, but they are all at least a year or two ahead of the two kids I was working with,  yesterday.



When you say 'kids' how old are we talking? Very young kids can be a spaz, at any given time. Put them in a stressful situation like a new school/class/curriculum and it only magnifies. That said, I personally have a bit of issue awarding high belts to young kids
.
My first question would be how long has it been since they have worked out at all. Natural attention deficit (Not ADD) is normal and I hope will quickly adjust for the kids. 
IF they have moved over from another school with little/no break then, Yes, that is a glaring indictment of the old school/teacher(s). However, there are a few conditional things I would consider that may cut them a little 'slack'. 

For me personally, even though they are conditional black or high red they would not have lined up at the front of class. I would have them at/near the back line working with an adult BB or higher ranked adult. It serves multiple purposes; Regardless of how they got there, it can be a bad visual que having the apparent 'highest' ranked people struggle through class. Not good for the other students or onlookers. 
It reduces external pressures on the new kids and greatly helps the learning process. 

It is personal preference I suppose but I Always talk with the parents and students and let them know what they should expect Before the first class. This is paramount when changing styles or systems within a style. A week or two later I will circle back and have another meeting with both parents and students to see how they are processing things. 

I agree that the scenario you described can get complex. There is much more going on that what is usually seen on the surface.


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## JR 137 (Feb 19, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Nagamine Shoshin?  He was a Shorinryu guy, though he also trained under Motobu Choki, if memory serves.  If not him, maybe Itosu Anko.  Neither one was Goju, but many of the old masters worked together, if not to unify into one system, at least to encourage the growth of karate-do.
> 
> By the way, Nagamine has a book about notable Okinawan MA masters.  Worth reading.


Nagamine is correct, according to Wikipedia...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukyugata


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## mrt2 (Feb 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> When you s*ay 'kids' how old are we talking? *Very young kids can be a spaz, at any given time. Put them in a stressful situation like a new school/class/curriculum and it only magnifies. That said, I personally have a bit of issue awarding high belts to young kids
> .
> *My first question would be how long has it been since they have worked out at al*l. Natural attention deficit (Not ADD) is normal and I hope will quickly adjust for the kids.
> IF they have moved over from another school with little/no break then, Yes, that is a glaring indictment of the old school/teacher(s). However, there are a few conditional things I would consider that may cut them a little 'slack'.
> ...


1. We are talking about kids maybe 9 or 10 years old
2.  IDK how recently these kids trained.


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## dvcochran (Feb 19, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> 1. We are talking about kids maybe 9 or 10 years old
> 2.  IDK how recently these kids trained.



Yea, that can be a challenging age to teach.


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## skribs (Feb 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yea, that can be a challenging age to teach.



Due to changes in my schedule, I mostly teach 4 & 5 year olds now.  The class is 4-7, but I think 80% of them are 4 or 5.  I wish I had kids that were only as challenging as 9 and 10 year olds!


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2020)

skribs said:


> Due to changes in my schedule, I mostly teach 4 & 5 year olds now.  The class is 4-7, but I think 80% of them are 4 or 5.  I wish I had kids that were only as challenging as 9 and 10 year olds!


Yeah, when my instructor added little kids' classes, I just noped out on that. I like the 8+ age group okay (though I really can't teach the way I want to with kids under about 14), but the little, little ones I have no patience for in class. I couldn't really even bring myself to watch the classes very often.


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## dvcochran (Feb 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, when my instructor added little kids' classes, I just noped out on that. I like the 8+ age group okay (though I really can't teach the way I want to with kids under about 14), but the little, little ones I have no patience for in class. I couldn't really even bring myself to watch the classes very often.


I would compare it to being an aunt/uncle. Kids, in moderation are fine as long as you can give them back at your choice and time.


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## mrt2 (Feb 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, when my instructor added little kids' classes, I just noped out on that. I like the 8+ age group okay (though I really can't teach the way I want to with kids under about 14), but the little, little ones I have no patience for in class. I couldn't really even bring myself to watch the classes very often.


From what I have seen, if the kids can stick with it past age 12, they can really start getting good.  IMO, some of my schools best students are 14 to 15 year olds who started as 5 or 6 year olds.  For them, Martial Arts is as natural to them as walking or breathing. It is a small number of kids who start as "little ninjas" and are still training as high school students, like fewer than 10%.


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## skribs (Feb 20, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I would compare it to being an aunt/uncle. Kids, in moderation are fine as long as you can give them back at your choice and time.


That's what I say. I love all these kids, but I also love giving them back to their parents at the end of class. 


mrt2 said:


> From what I have seen, if the kids can stick with it past age 12, they can really start getting good.  IMO, some of my schools best students are 14 to 15 year olds who started as 5 or 6 year olds.  For them, Martial Arts is as natural to them as walking or breathing. It is a small number of kids who start as "little ninjas" and are still training as high school students, like fewer than 10%.



If it's all they've known, it's natural to them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 20, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> From what I have seen, if the kids can stick with it past age 12, they can really start getting good.  IMO, some of my schools best students are 14 to 15 year olds who started as 5 or 6 year olds.  For them, Martial Arts is as natural to them as walking or breathing. It is a small number of kids who start as "little ninjas" and are still training as high school students, like fewer than 10%.


I've never had a chance to teach kids like that. I was only at the school about 4 years after he started the little kids' program, so none of them had made it to that age yet.


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## Balrog (Feb 21, 2020)

In my not so humble opinion....

Too much emphasis is placed on making 1st Degree Black Belt.  It's a great goal to have, don't get me wrong, but it is not the be-all and end-all of training.  It's very much like graduating from high school.  All it shows is that you have learned the basics.  Now it is time to really start learning the art.


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

Balrog said:


> In my not so humble opinion....
> 
> Too much emphasis is placed on making 1st Degree Black Belt.  It's a great goal to have, don't get me wrong, but it is not the be-all and end-all of training.  It's very much like graduating from high school.  All it shows is that you have learned the basics.  Now it is time to really start learning the art.


Agree. What suggestions can you provide for setting goals throughout the learning progression? The belts have worked for decades (centuries?) and are very effective as long as the are not presented as the End of training. Exactly like you said unfortunately happens sometimes. Some of this is induced by the student and some of it is from poor communication form the instructor. IMHO


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

Balrog said:


> In my not so humble opinion....
> 
> Too much emphasis is placed on making 1st Degree Black Belt.  It's a great goal to have, don't get me wrong, but it is not the be-all and end-all of training.  It's very much like graduating from high school.  All it shows is that you have learned the basics.  Now it is time to really start learning the art.



Because there are opportunities that are not available to you if you don't have a diploma/GED.


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> Because there are opportunities that are not available to you if you don't have a diploma/GED.


Would you clarify the statement please?


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Would you clarify the statement please?



Jobs that require you to have completed high school education.  Higher education opportunities that are not available until you meet pre-requisites.

At the college level, you have the problem of some credits not transferring when you transfer schools.  So now you need to re-take some classes, or take new pre-requisites, just to move towards the degree you were already close to getting.

Coming back to Martial Arts, let's say you train Taekwondo for 20 years, but you move around from school to school and never quite made black belt before you moved again and have to learn the new curriculum there.  You almost learn all the forms at a KKW school and then move to an ATA school; get caught up there and move to a MDK school, then go to an ITF school, then back to KKW (but this school does the palgwes), then to another ITF school (this one does sine wave), and then you go back to a KKW school that does the forms you originally learned and you have to re-learn them all.  Now you've got several times the experience of most first degree black belts, and probably enough experience to open your own school, but you're not even qualified to be a junior instructor in the organization.

Yeah, someone should stick to one school if they can, but if you're in the military or move around a lot for work, you might not have the opportunity.  And this isn't an extreme case.  There's a guy at my dojang who is progressing through our 3rd dan curriculum just as fast as I am, but he's been a 3rd dan in KKW for several years now.  If he would have stayed at one school, he'd probably be a 5th dan by now.  It wouldn't mean he'd be any different of a martial artist.  But if he wanted to open his own school, he could, and right now he can't.


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> Jobs that require you to have completed high school education.  Higher education opportunities that are not available until you meet pre-requisites.
> 
> At the college level, you have the problem of some credits not transferring when you transfer schools.  So now you need to re-take some classes, or take new pre-requisites, just to move towards the degree you were already close to getting.
> 
> ...


Accidental post.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

@dvcochran how am I wrong?

Do people who transfer from school to school not have to learn the new school's curriculum?
Does it not matter what your rank is when you open a school?
Has my friend not had a 3rd degree black belt for several years?


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> Jobs that require you to have completed high school education.  Higher education opportunities that are not available until you meet pre-requisites.
> 
> At the college level, you have the problem of some credits not transferring when you transfer schools.  So now you need to re-take some classes, or take new pre-requisites, just to move towards the degree you were already close to getting.
> 
> ...


Most MA's would call what you describe a pretty cool MA journey. It just is Not all about the belt that is wrapped around you waist.
I agree that the person you described would have a ton of experience, enough that they could/should easily be able to pass it on to others.
The line of ascension you mention is only important within the one organization and is even sometime limited to one school. If rank is what is most important to you then you are correct in your statement. Else, not true.
Yes, I hold a high rank, but the breadth of knowledge I have is from years and years of cross-training with any and every school I could find during my travels all over the world.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Most MA's would call what you describe a pretty cool MA journey. It just is Not all about the belt that is wrapped around you waist.
> I agree that the person you described would have a ton of experience, enough that they could/should easily be able to pass it on to others.
> The line of ascension you mention is only important within the one organization and is even sometime limited to one school. If rank is what is most important to you then you are correct in your statement. Else, not true.
> Yes, I hold a high rank, but the breadth of knowledge I have is from years and years of cross-training with any and every school I could find during my travels all over the world.



Imagine you have that breadth of knowledge with no rank.  Why would anyone want to learn from you?  Until they know you and your background, you are just another person claiming to know martial arts.

It is our accomplishments that give us the authority on the subject.  I can claim to have 20 years of experience in all of the following: BJJ, Muay Thai, Aikido, Wing Chun, Capeoira, Wrestling, Boxing, Taekwondo, and Tai Chi.  But I can't back any of those up, because none of them are true.  Now let's say I talk about my 10 years of experience in Taekwondo.  This is true.  If I had no rank, medals, or documented accomplishments, how can anyone verify this?

One of the most common posts I see on the r/martialarts subreddit, is a link to a school with the basic question of "I'm thinking about starting martial arts, can you tell me if this dojo is legit?"  If the people who look into the school can't find any evidence to support the claims of the instructor, they'll call it sketchy.

It's not to say that the journey I described is bad.  But someone who's gone on that journey doesn't have the credentials to match with their experience.  If being an instructor is something they would enjoy, it's not an option for them.  Even if they're more skilled than the rest of the people in the area, they're probably less qualified.

For you, you hold a high rank.  It's easy for you to dismiss the situation my friend is in, because you don't find yourself in that situation.  Just like a rich kid growing up who doesn't understand money troubles, I don't think you can clearly see the problem of having your skillset without the rank.  

Would you be fine with getting your black belts removed and going back down to a red or brown belt?  If you went to a new TKD school and they made you a brown belt (even though you are the equivalent of their 8th degree black belts in terms of knowledge and experience), would you accept that?


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> Imagine you have that breadth of knowledge with no rank.  Why would anyone want to learn from you?  Until they know you and your background, you are just another person claiming to know martial arts.
> 
> It is our accomplishments that give us the authority on the subject.  I can claim to have 20 years of experience in all of the following: BJJ, Muay Thai, Aikido, Wing Chun, Capeoira, Wrestling, Boxing, Taekwondo, and Tai Chi.  But I can't back any of those up, because none of them are true.  Now let's say I talk about my 10 years of experience in Taekwondo.  This is true.  If I had no rank, medals, or documented accomplishments, how can anyone verify this?
> 
> ...



It is not an apples to apples question I can answer. 
Maybe this answers your question; I used to often travel worldwide for work. I would find a school(s), regardless of style, where ever I traveled. I would always have a conversation with the owner or instructor and often wore no belt or my original white belt that I kept in my bag. Almost always was the case when it was a different style. In the early 90's I got my 1st Dan in Kali where I had to start as a white belt.

I am much aware that my journey has been very atypical. I have never been a casual learner of anything. I legally owned my first school before I was even a black belt. I was a silent partner for almost two years. I still own the physical property for two schools and was owner/operator for one Dojang for about 15 years. I missed going to the '88 Olympics by 2 matches. I can go on and on with the "I's" but  that misses the point.

I never had to give much thought to belt progression because I was putting in more than just the required time between belts. Pretty sure I have always tested some time after the 'time requirement'. For my 3rd/5th and 4th/6th belts the test were done in the same weekend. Yes, that was very much a challenge but I was given the option and choose to do so. Our GM has been a longtime board member of the KKW testing and scoring committees and they wanted to spend time seeing the MDK material. My 5th KKW and 7th MDK were about a year apart. I had not tested since 1995 and honestly I was a bit disappointed with the KKW testers and format in Chicago. Much easier than my 4th Dan. The 7th Dan test was mostly a review of my accomplishments in the growth and business of TKD, to verify I had met the required milestones, to confirm I knew all the material, and see some material I have created. My hope is that some of it will be added to the official MDK curriculum.
I have no stripes on my belt and never will. Context aside, I could give 2 shits if anyone knows what rank I am. This is a MA site so I hope all this is received accordingly. 

So, the short answer is I over achieved so that I knew for certain that I was never in a position to know what the some of the condition you described would feel like. My apologies; please do not take that as bragging, just a lot of hard work. 

I can tell you this; I many regards I walked the journey twice. In 2001 I was hit head-on by a dump truck, "died" twice and have had 38 (I think) surgeries since. I literally had to relearn how to walk and talk. Have had a ton of cognitive and memory issues. Twelve plates, every kind of graph you can think of, yada, yada, yada.
About 10 years later I very, very slowly started working out and have had to relearn everything several times over. It does not appear this is ever going to change. 

I feel your "just another person claiming to know an art" is exactly why belt level has to be taken carefully. Some of the best schools and workout environments I have ever been in were ran by 1st/2nd Dan's or guys with no official rank at all. 

How does anyone "verify your accomplishments/experience"? By working out with you.  By seeing the quality of the person, and the environment you have built. By seeing the quality of the other people working out with you. 
In NO way does this only mean physical quality.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> How does anyone "verify your accomplishments/experience"? By working out with you.  By seeing the quality of the person, and the environment you have built. By seeing the quality of the other people working out with you.
> In NO way does this only mean physical quality.



The thing is, you know all of this about yourself.  But some random person off the street doesn't.  And they're going to make decisions very quickly.  When I applied for my job in IT, I needed to have specific certifications.  I needed to have Security+ and Server+, which I hold.  However, I still had to interview.  If I didn't have Security+ or Server+, I couldn't even have been considered, even though I was a perfect candidate for the job.  But my interviewer made it clear that my certifications just got me to the interview.  It was how I conducted myself in the interview and the critical thinking skills I presented that got me the job.  Neither was more important than the other.  My skills I could demonstrate and my skills on paper were both critically important to me having the job.



> This is a MA site so I hope all this is received accordingly.



To give you another example on this forum, you have some people like you and @Dirty Dog and @gpseymour  who have enough years in Martial Arts that you can take the attitude of the State Farm commercials "we know a thing or two, because we've seen a thing or two."  Then you've got people like me, who have a fair amount of experience - enough that we're considered teachers or experts within our art, but still have a lot of room to grow.  And then you have people that I'm not going to name (but you might know who I'm thinking of) that are armchair masters.  The kind of person personified by Matt Page when he plays Master Ken (Enter the Dojo on Youtube), who washed out of every school they trained and have no practical experience, but talk like an 11th-degree-black belt.  

On this forum, we all have the same authority.  While I'm a lot less experienced than you, I can say a lot of the same things you can.  I've trained for years under a Master.  I've trained others under me.  I've mentored other instructors at my school.  I've gotten with peers, and developed a few ideas myself.  I don't know that it will make it into a KKW curriculum, but I hope one day to have my own curriculum I can teach.  I know you can claim all of these things and more.  And yet, someone with only a few months of experience and a huge superiority complex (okay, we may share that second trait) can post advice with the same clout.  So what is it that sets apart your message, or my message, from that uninformed one?


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> When I applied for my job in IT, I needed to have specific certifications. I needed to have Security+ and Server+, which I hold. However, I still had to interview. If I didn't have Security+ or Server+, I couldn't even have been considered, even though I was a perfect candidate for the job. But my interviewer made it clear that my certifications just got me to the interview.


This is not at all how the MA world I have been involved in works. It soundly resembles someone who is trying to put the cart before the horse. Maybe they think they will clean things up later. A Lot of people have done just that. This is one of the reasons for the extended time between Dan ranks.
We start with nothing; pure and "white" (in belt). Usually dumber than a box of rocks when it comes to MA's. Then we build on this over time and progression. The may or may Not mean any kind of belt or rank. 



skribs said:


> On this forum, we all have the same authority. While I'm a lot less experienced than you, I can say a lot of the same things you can.


True, in any environment. A very real hazard in todays world of instant information. Saying I am a brain surgeon and actually performing the surgery could not be more different. It doesn't matter what my certificate says. In this context I often think of 1st and 2nd Dan and yes even some 3rd Dan's in much of TKD as interns.



skribs said:


> And yet, someone with only a few months of experience and a huge superiority complex (okay, we may share that second trait) can post advice with the same clout. So what is it that sets apart your message, or my message, from that uninformed one?


I immediately go to the old saying "Money talks and BS walks". I don't know what else to say other than that experience is the best teacher. 
"Sets apart" , I don't feel I have the written skills to say. This is part of the problem in communicating over a forum. So much is lost in the communication. 
Sometimes inexperience can be perceived even in written form.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

@dvcochran on MartialTalk we have a belt rank based on our post count.  Over on the r/Taekwondo subreddit, you can put your belt rank and what association you're with.  For example, mine says "3rd Dan KKW".  Others may have "2nd Dan WTF/ITF" or something similar to that.  This tells you right away what level of experience they have, and in what lineage.

When someone asks a question, I can immediately tell based on the tag what the experience level is of the person making the post.  It doesn't mean I have to like their post.  But it gives me perspective.  If I see a question answered by a "red belt", a "2nd dan", a "4th dan" and a "7th dan", then I know where each of them is coming from:

The red belt is saying what he's learned in class
The 2nd dan is saying what he's had a chance to experiment with
The 4th dan is speaking from experience both himself and in his teaching
The 7th dan is speaking from decades of experience and probably a few perspective changes along the way, from student to teacher to master
Knowing that perspective makes it easier for me to understand what it is they're saying.

With that in mind, I then treat what they say based on what they say.  For example, there's one guy that's a 2nd Dan, but based on his disrespectful attitude to TKD in general I wouldn't want him anywhere near my school.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> The thing is, you know all of this about yourself.  But some random person off the street doesn't.  And they're going to make decisions very quickly.  When I applied for my job in IT, I needed to have specific certifications.  I needed to have Security+ and Server+, which I hold.  However, I still had to interview.  If I didn't have Security+ or Server+, I couldn't even have been considered, even though I was a perfect candidate for the job.  But my interviewer made it clear that my certifications just got me to the interview.  It was how I conducted myself in the interview and the critical thinking skills I presented that got me the job.  Neither was more important than the other.  My skills I could demonstrate and my skills on paper were both critically important to me having the job.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It has been my experiece that those of us in traditional (belt-using) systems expect that rank to be more important to newcomers than it typically is. My belt is often not visible (hidden under hakama), and I can only think of twice I've been asked by a visitor what my rank was. One of those times, it appeared to be a real question, the other seemed to be out of curiosity (or perhaps because they thought they should ask that). Once we have a level of experience, I think we're more likley to pay attention to someone's rank, because it does give us _some_ information (depending how much we know about the system they're ranked in).


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## dvcochran (Feb 21, 2020)

Isn't that exactly to your previous point? How do you really know what rank anyone is on reddit? Other than 'hearing' experience, or the lack thereof, in what they write.
This is another reason why I like this site better. A person can/should fill in their profile page with as much information as possible. This makes them a more reliable source of information (MA related) and is a means of verification if necessary. 
Hopefully I am about as transparent as possible.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 21, 2020)

skribs said:


> @dvcochran on MartialTalk we have a belt rank based on our post count.  Over on the r/Taekwondo subreddit, you can put your belt rank and what association you're with.  For example, mine says "3rd Dan KKW".  Others may have "2nd Dan WTF/ITF" or something similar to that.  This tells you right away what level of experience they have, and in what lineage.



Correct me if I'm wrong (I am not a reddit user), but I believe that only tells you what experience they CLAIM, not what they actually have.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 21, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (I am not a reddit user), but I believe that only tells you what experience they CLAIM, not what they actually have.


Yep. I’ll note that the r/bjj subreddit has a verification process for anyone wanting to display black belt flair, but I don’t think any of the other martial arts subreddits have anything like that.


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## Buka (Feb 21, 2020)

I don't even know what "r/bjj subreddit" means. The bjj part I get, the rest not so much. But no worries, as they say around here.....me no care.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 21, 2020)

Buka said:


> I don't even know what "r/bjj subreddit" means. The bjj part I get, the rest not so much. But no worries, as they say around here.....me no care.


Reddit is really just a platform or central clearing house for a ton of different forums, each of which has its own rules, moderators, etc. Those  forums or “subreddits” are identified as r/whatever, i.e. r/bjj, r/martialarts, r/judo, r/politics, r/marvelstudios, r/dadjokes, and so on.


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## Balrog (Feb 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Agree. What suggestions can you provide for setting goals throughout the learning progression? The belts have worked for decades (centuries?) and are very effective as long as the are not presented as the End of training. Exactly like you said unfortunately happens sometimes. Some of this is induced by the student and some of it is from poor communication form the instructor. IMHO


When I was running my school, we always talked about Black Belt.  Stand like a Black Belt, answer like a Black Belt, etc., trying to get the student in the habit of setting long term goals.  But by the time they got to Brown Belt, we were talking about a goal of Second or Third Degree or beyond.  Too many students make First Degree and quit.  We were trying to keep them past that so that the training would sink in even deeper and become a lifestyle.


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## skribs (Feb 21, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Isn't that exactly to your previous point? How do you really know what rank anyone is on reddit? Other than 'hearing' experience, or the lack thereof, in what they write.
> This is another reason why I like this site better. A person can/should fill in their profile page with as much information as possible. This makes them a more reliable source of information (MA related) and is a means of verification if necessary.
> Hopefully I am about as transparent as possible.



It gives you a starting point for the conversation.  You are right that you can see through what they post whether they really are that rank or not.  However, I believe most people on that site are the rank they claim.  



Dirty Dog said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong (I am not a reddit user), but I believe that only tells you what experience they CLAIM, not what they actually have.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2020)

Balrog said:


> When I was running my school, we always talked about Black Belt.  Stand like a Black Belt, answer like a Black Belt, etc., trying to get the student in the habit of setting long term goals.  But by the time they got to Brown Belt, we were talking about a goal of Second or Third Degree or beyond.  Too many students make First Degree and quit.  We were trying to keep them past that so that the training would sink in even deeper and become a lifestyle.


I like that progression of "lures", if you will. Within the association I came up in, it lacked that. It took long work to get to BB, and 2nd degree was only achievable by active instructors with their own students, so 1st was a "terminal degree" for most.


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## dvcochran (Feb 22, 2020)

skribs said:


> It gives you a starting point for the conversation.  You are right that you can see through what they post whether they really are that rank or not.  However, I believe most people on that site are the rank they claim.


That is decent of you to take people at their word when you have nothing else to go. I feel that can be very dangerous and it is just not in my nature. 

A good example; if I can see a persons alleged rank and alleged age, that alone may quickly tell they are lying. Trying to navigate just theses two variables with the difficulties of communication on a worldwide site can at times be impossible. 
So I look for proof from more than one source.

When I started as a LEO, every officer had to take a rather grueling psychological profile test. Each person 'learned' what their personality supposedly was. Mine was skeptic an investigator. That was a surprisingly accurate description of me. I am always not only looking for the answer but for proof that supports the answer.  

I/we have been able to tell for some time you are very confirmation driven. Rank is important to you. However, I have never seen anything I can use as proof. Like your schools website. Your business particulars, Life story, etc... 
Yes, these are ancillary but certainly help. 
It is awesome to hear/read about young, excited, motivated people who have goal to continue their art.  
I know it is frustrating for you to hear people tell you your training has been a narrow path so far but it would be a dis-service not to tell you the truth. Frankly, I 'hear' gaps in you training indicative of many schools I have been to that have bad gaps in the curriculum. Usually caused by the teachers lack of knowledge/experience or poorly formatted program. Since I cannot see/hear/feel anything you do all I have to go on is what I read. So it is very hard to disseminate.
​Last Wednesday I traveled about 150 miles to inspect and eventually purchase a 15' flexwing mower. I met the company owner's son and we spend about an 1hour in a "snow storm" (a funny TN weather story)checking out the machine. The owner of the company, Mr. Jim Rice was not there but his son called him and in about 15 minutes of conversation and haggling we made a deal. It was truly a virtual handshake. I wrote a personal check, which he folded up and put in money bag and loaded up a $16,000 piece of equipment.

My point to that  story is that there a things you can immediately learn in an oral conversation that are hard to impossible pick up on when on a forum. Most of it was just my normal personality but I made sure I created a confidence where Mr. Rice believed/knew he could trust me. Side note: he had just been stiffed on a similar sale where the person wrote a personal check to the tune of $7.000. 

I hope this sheds insight. It got a little rambly.


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## dvcochran (Feb 22, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I like that progression of "lures", if you will. Within the association I came up in, it lacked that. It took long work to get to BB, and 2nd degree was only achievable by active instructors with their own students, so 1st was a "terminal degree" for most.


By in large, it feels to me that the Belt scale is shifting. Somewhat akin to the way certain 'social norms' have over the last two decades. 
I see a small amount of good in this but mostly bad. I worry that we are nearing the point where 'achieving 1st Dan' will not have very much meaning and loose it's strength as a good and usable goal. I worry that Way too much of the changes I have seen in progression is overly effected by the imbalance of child (<16) to adult practitioners in a effort to boost retention. 
I realize not all styles are following this curve but it does seem to be the predominant model. 

Conversely, you said 1st BB is a terminal degree. I take that to say for the majority of people 1st is their last or only rank. What I think I 'hear' in this is that the culture built in to practicing NGA (and your derivatives) is such that there is no issue with this type of belt progression. 
That is a very good thing. The 'speed' which todays society in learning and achieving makes it very tough to hold on to many of the traditional values. IMHO


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Conversely, you said 1st BB is a terminal degree. I take that to say for the majority of people 1st is their last or only rank. What I think I 'hear' in this is that the culture built in to practicing NGA (and your derivatives) is such that there is no issue with this type of belt progression.



The only way to progress from 1st to 2nd is to teach - from these and other posts that doesn't just mean helping out in class, it means having your own set of students.

No students, no 2nd degree, ever.

This means that someone may be excellent in the art, and very capable of much more progression - but if they have no interest in teaching (membership expansion?) then any road to further progression is barred.




dvcochran said:


> That is a very good thing. The 'speed' which todays society in learning and achieving makes it very tough to hold on to many of the traditional values. IMHO



With the above, is it still a good thing?



Not forcing an ever faster timeline through belts, yes great - go at a sensible speed that actually allows proper progression.


Restricting progression based on willingness to be a recruiter?

If there's no further real progression and 2nd+ are purely "service to the art" awards then meh, but if not it's an intentional exclusion of anyone who doesn't want to teach.


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## skribs (Feb 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> By in large, it feels to me that the Belt scale is shifting. Somewhat akin to the way certain 'social norms' have over the last two decades.
> I see a small amount of good in this but mostly bad. I worry that we are nearing the point where 'achieving 1st Dan' will not have very much meaning and loose it's strength as a good and usable goal. I worry that Way too much of the changes I have seen in progression is overly effected by the imbalance of child (<16) to adult practitioners in a effort to boost retention.
> I realize not all styles are following this curve but it does seem to be the predominant model.
> 
> ...



My Master has his credentials listed on his site, and his certificates posted on the wall.  Our black belts wear belts with stripes to signify the number of degrees we have.  My Master posts test results after testing, which include tests after black belt.  And whenever he introduces judges during testing, he'll introduce them by rank (most of the judges are 2nd and 3rd degree).

And yet we have students who have no idea there's class after black belt.  We have parents who are like "they get their black belt, and that's it, right?"    Parents who are picking up their kids *while black belt class is going on right in front of them.*

I explain to them that there is more after black belt.  But society has put "black belt" on a pedestal, and for some reason thinks that it's the highest rank you can achieve.  I don't really know what else we can do in our school for people to understand that black belt isn't the end of the journey.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> By in large, it feels to me that the Belt scale is shifting. Somewhat akin to the way certain 'social norms' have over the last two decades.
> I see a small amount of good in this but mostly bad. I worry that we are nearing the point where 'achieving 1st Dan' will not have very much meaning and loose it's strength as a good and usable goal. I worry that Way too much of the changes I have seen in progression is overly effected by the imbalance of child (<16) to adult practitioners in a effort to boost retention.
> I realize not all styles are following this curve but it does seem to be the predominant model.
> 
> ...


There's no inherent problem with 1st dan being the pinnacle for most, exept that it does leave off any achievements for those who like the achievement of rank (whether as a matter of approval, or simply as a thing to strive for). I see a lot of schools with a small handful of BB, all 1st dan. It seems only a handful of instructors have managed to build a program that keeps those folks interested enough to stick around long-term.


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## mrt2 (Feb 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> B*y in large, it feels to me that the Belt scale is shifting.* Somewhat akin to the way certain 'social norms' have over the last two decades.
> I see a small amount of good in this but mostly bad. I worry that we are nearing the point where 'achieving 1st Dan' will not have very much meaning and loose it's strength as a good and usable goal.* I worry that Way too much of the changes I have seen in progression is overly effected by the imbalance of child (<16) to adult practitioners in a effort to boost retention.
> I realize not all styles are following this curve but it does seem to be the predominant model. *
> 
> ...


I agree.  When I practiced Tang Soo Do back in the early 80s, there were relatively few 1st Dans, and no child 1st Dans.  Often as a red belt or Cho Dan Bo, I was the highest ranking student in class.  FWIW, and IMO at my school, 1st Dan is not as high of a rank as it was back in the early 80s at my former school, and in fact my current school's 2nd Dans are more like what 1st Dan was at my former school. 

But it is what it is.  All those child students are what keeps the doors open, as there are not enough adults to support a full time commercial school.


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## geezer (Feb 22, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> All those *child students *are what keeps the doors open, as there are not enough adults to support a full time commercial school.



Could you clarify regarding the comment quoted above? Are you referring to _your_ school or system, most MA schools, or are you describing what you feel to be the situation in general with martial arts schools today? 

I ask because the system I train has been largely focused on teaching adults. That was also my personal focus running a very small school, ...and I recently closed my doors. Even our association HQ has diminished in size and the chief instructor now works a second job. On the other hand, it seems that some MMA and jujitsu schools seem to do just fine focussing on mature teens and adults.


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## skribs (Feb 22, 2020)

geezer said:


> Could you clarify regarding the comment quoted above? Are you referring to _your_ school or system, most MA schools, or are you describing what you feel to be the situation in general with martial arts schools today?
> 
> I ask because the system I train has been largely focused on teaching adults. That was also my personal focus running a very small school, ...and I recently closed my doors. Even our association HQ has diminished in size and the chief instructor now works a second job. On the other hand, it seems that some MMA and jujitsu schools seem to do just fine focussing on mature teens and adults.



MMA, BJJ, and similar arts (boxing, muay thai, etc) keep the doors open with adults because they're training for competitions.  Most people who train a TMA are either self-defense enthusiasts, nerds who want to learn another culture, or kids.  The vast majority of those are going to be kids.


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## mrt2 (Feb 22, 2020)

geezer said:


> Could you clarify regarding the comment quoted above? Are you referring to _your_ school or system, most MA schools, or are you describing what you feel to be the situation in general with martial arts schools today?
> 
> *I ask because the system I train has been largely focused on teaching adults. That was also my personal focus running a very small school, ...and I recently closed my doors. Even our association HQ has diminished in size and the chief instructor now works a second job.* On the other hand, it seems that some MMA and jujitsu schools seem to do just fine focussing on mature teens and adults.


I was referring to most of the traditional martial arts schools in my area, including my own school.  There just aren't enough adult students to keep the doors open.  FWIW, I don't think it is all that different for BJJ schools, but frankly I don't know for sure.

IMO, there are a couple of reasons for this.  Adult students have many demands on their time including work, school, children, and spouses, not to mention lots of options for both social and athletic activities.  Unlike other recreational activities, martial arts demands a high level of commitment, mental energy, and most of all, consistency.  You can enjoy, say, golf, tennis, or skiing, and stop for long periods of time, then take it up months or even years later.  Alternately, if all you need is to get some exercise, you can find activities you can do whenever, such as jogging on a treadmill, stationary cycling, or weight lifting that you can do whenever.  Martial arts means getting to a Dojo/Dojang on a certain time on a certain day, which isn't always possible for some people.

Here are some real world examples of adults/older teens I knew from my school who quit this year.
1.  A guy who made probationary black belt.  In some ways, he was one of my role models coming back as an adult as he was already a high level intermediate when I was a white belt.  And like me, he was a bigger guy and also middle aged. And he made probationary black belt, then had to take some time off because of a back injury.  Then he just never came back.  Apparently, his son, who also made probationary black belt decided to do football in the fall and so dropped Tae Kwon Do.  So this guy felt that while he might have the time to do TKD with his son, decided he ,  didn't have the time train TKD and help with his son's football practices and other activities.

2. A guy who, like me was middle aged, and was a few belt ranks ahead of me at the beginning, but was lagging behind because his work schedule didn't give him enough time to train.  He told me he intended to make more time for TKD, but then a month or so later, he abruptly quit because he said he just couldn't spare the time.  I recently saw him and he is thinking about coming back, which I hope he does.

3. A woman who made 1st Dan, who used to train with her teenage son who also made 1st Dan.  Her son quit, and so after a time she decided to quit, though she told me she may come back next year.

4. An older teen who had all the tools to make black belt, but who just became more interested in acting, and so didn't have the time to continue.

5. A woman who also has all the tools to advance in TKD.  She is tall, athletic and smart.  But she told me her work schedule was getting hectic and her kids had a lot of activities she needed to help out with, so she is technically on a "break".


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## dvcochran (Feb 22, 2020)

geezer said:


> Could you clarify regarding the comment quoted above? Are you referring to _your_ school or system, most MA schools, or are you describing what you feel to be the situation in general with martial arts schools today?
> 
> I ask because the system I train has been largely focused on teaching adults. That was also my personal focus running a very small school, ...and I recently closed my doors. Even our association HQ has diminished in size and the chief instructor now works a second job. On the other hand, it seems that some MMA and jujitsu schools seem to do just fine focussing on mature teens and adults.


It has become the norm for most commercial schools; more kids than adults and the kids keeping the doors open. This is not to say the quality of instruction has diminished in all cases.

As far as MMA; it is the 'hot new thing' right now just like TKD was in the 80's. I suspect the popularity will mellow at some point and change much of the perception. Also, most MMA is in or a component of a commercial gym. That also changes the financial dynamic. The MMA model is totally different from a TMA school.


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## dvcochran (Feb 22, 2020)

pdg said:


> The only way to progress from 1st to 2nd is to teach - from these and other posts that doesn't just mean helping out in class, it means having your own set of students.
> 
> No students, no 2nd degree, ever.
> 
> ...


Are you speaking for NGA or another school/style?


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## pdg (Feb 22, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Are you speaking for NGA or another school/style?



That's how I've interpreted NGA from what @gpseymour has said.

I'm not speaking _for_ them though...


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 23, 2020)

pdg said:


> The only way to progress from 1st to 2nd is to teach - from these and other posts that doesn't just mean helping out in class, it means having your own set of students.
> 
> No students, no 2nd degree, ever.
> 
> This means that someone may be excellent in the art, and very capable of much more progression - but if they have no interest in teaching (membership expansion?) then any road to further progression is barred.


If by "progression" you mean moving further in the curriculum, there isn't any. The formal curriculum ends at 2nd dan (meaning all the curriculum is delivered prior to testing for 2nd dan). And what exists between 1st and 2nd is of questionable value, IMO, because it is so rarely visited. The rank ends (for most folks) where the curriculum ends. For those who don't wish to progress to 2nd dan (don't want to teach on their own), they really don't miss much curriculum.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2020)

skribs said:


> We have parents who are like "they get their black belt, and that's it, right?" Parents who are picking up their kids *while black belt class is going on right in front of them.*




Many parents in many activities are this 'blind' sadly, I sent out an information form last week about a learning First Aid Day for our local Guides, got home straight after meeting to an email asking what the day was all about, what would the girls be doing.... love the kids in martial arts, Guiding and other groups but parents? Blah.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I think there should be no time limits, it should be soley based on if you pass the curriculum that is required. Alot of time , time constraints Is a money maker.  But there are exceptions.


No instructor I've ever talked with had time constraints that would help make money in any measurable way. Mostly, the time guidelines existed to set student expectations, slow down the fast learners (life lessons, not fighting lessons, in that one), and give some guidance to new instructors. In quite a few cases, the guidelines were simply estimates of how long it should take an athletic person with no direct prior experience to complete that part of the curriculum.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 27, 2020)

Surely, if someone  has the required technical ability, their belt should reflect it - for lower belts, as that is the main requirement.  For intermediates, experience in sparring, developing strategy and tactics, muscle memory, and showing some staying power come into play, so some time element is required, as well to allow "seasoning" of the student.  This has nothing to do with fees or dues, it's part of the curriculum.

Now for black belts, the landscape is different and the obstacles do require time.  In addition to the above factors, polishing the techniques, understanding the applications and variations of techniques, understanding the opponent, overcoming one's ego (this alone may take many years), proving your dedication to the art and school, educating one's self on the history and philosophy of the art, learning about other styles, mastering patience and self-discipline and progressing further on the quest to perfect the techniques - these take years to accomplish. 

And after black, especially after 4th degree or so, many of the above abstract elements are the sole determiners of rank.  Time spent in a rank is its own justification for the next one.  Being able to wait for it  _(progressing beyond the desire for rank_)  should indeed be a requirement for not only higher belts, but to a lesser extent, intermediates as well.

So, mandatory time is certainly in order in varying degrees from novice to post-advanced.  This allows the full progression from "jutsu" to "do" - developing the art from technical science to a way of life.  If most of the above seems unnecessary to you, you have a gym, not a dojo.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> This has nothing to do with fees or dues, it's part of the curriculum.


I disagree with this. It is just the reality of sustaining a school financially.



isshinryuronin said:


> Time spent in a rank is its own justification for the next one


I cannot disagree with this more. Too often I have seen people show up after a year or two absence (because it was close to their required time) and want to test. How can this be allowed or OK?


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot disagree with this more. Too often I have seen people show up after a year or two absence (because it was close to their required time) and want to test. How can this be allowed or OK?



Time-in-grade usually means so many hours or years of active training.  Someone who gets 2nd dan and takes 2 years off shouldn't be eligible for 3rd dan until they've trained for 2 years as 2nd dan.

Although some people are just delusional about how much time they've put in.  I remember one guy at my dojang who was there maybe 3 classes a month (not even once a week).  The belt he was at has 7 punch defense (among other things).  He couldn't even get a handle on 1-3, and was complaining about never being taught 4-7.  Well, after we moved into the advanced class, I didn't see him in class for several months.  Every time I saw him bring in his kid, I'd ask when he's coming back to class.  "What do you mean?  I never left.  I'm still here."  

Then he'd come back for a night, take the wrong class (the beginner class), stay for the advanced class, end up overdoing it and be gone for several months again.  Next time I saw him, same thing.  "Good to see you back!"  "What do you mean?  I've always been here."


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot disagree with this more. Too often I have seen people show up after a year or two absence (because it was close to their required time) and want to test. How can this be allowed or OK?


In the NGAA, there was an "active" requirement. And they defined what broke that status, and what absence would actually lead to potential re-testing for existing rank. Being absent a year would mean they were not eligible for the next rank, and would be subject to reassessment for existing rank. At colored-belt ranks, the instructor has the option of just starting them back at white (though I've never seen that done).


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I disagree with this. It is just the reality of sustaining a school financially.
> You misunderstand me in your two points.  I meant that quickly promoting and getting test fees should not be the main factor in promoting someone.  It should be curriculum driven.  I understand revenue is important, but by the time a student has become an intermediate belt, over promoting does the student a disservice and does little in building character.
> 
> I cannot disagree with this more. Too often I have seen people show up after a year or two absence (because it was close to their required time) and want to test. How can this be allowed or OK?


I maybe should have clarified "Active" time spent in a rank.  I thought that would have been the default understanding.


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## dvcochran (Feb 27, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> I maybe should have clarified "Active" time spent in a rank.  I thought that would have been the default understanding.


It is a peculiar world we live. It amazed me the people who think it is OK to feel that as long as they have paid their financial dues they should be allowed to promote, regardless of how much (or little) or how quality the class time has been.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 27, 2020)

Sorry, but my first point got included with DVcochran's quote above and was a response to his first sentence.


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## Tez3 (Feb 27, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is a peculiar world we live. It amazed me the people who think it is OK to feel that as long as they have paid their financial dues they should be allowed to promote, regardless of how much (or little) or how quality the class time has been.




Mostly they're called 'parents'.


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## JR 137 (Feb 27, 2020)

irondome said:


> I think there should be no time limits, it should be soley based on if you pass the curriculum that is required. Alot of time , time constraints Is a money maker.  But there are exceptions.


There’s no substitute for experience. And if you’re there to train for the long haul, what difference does it make? 

My teacher had a coworker who was a 2nd dan at a local TKD chain school. He’d been training for about 3 years. He came to our school to try it out, as he was quite friendly with my teacher. 

He figured he’d be at the level of our 2nd dans, even though it takes about 8 years or so to get there. How’d he do? Compared to us, he was at about 4th kyu level skill-wise. Not talking kata because their’s are different. His basics, mechanics and sparring ability were at that level. Not so surprising as 4th kyu takes about 3 years in our school. I’d say he was a very average 3 year student. 

There’s no substitute for experience.


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## skribs (Feb 27, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> There’s no substitute for experience. And if you’re there to train for the long haul, what difference does it make?
> 
> My teacher had a coworker who was a 2nd dan at a local TKD chain school. He’d been training for about 3 years. He came to our school to try it out, as he was quite friendly with my teacher.
> 
> ...



My Mom told me a story of 2 guys she worked with.  One was the computer tech, the other was the computer engineer.  The tech knew how to fix everything, the engineer didn't know jack.  But because the engineer had a degree, he was the lead and had a bigger paycheck.  So the guy who actually fixed everything reported to someone who didn't know how to do anything, and made less money than him.

This is kind of my point.  He may only be a 4th kyu at your dojang.  But if both he and one of your 1st kyu students (who would be more advanced) go to another school, then your student would know more, but have less employment opportunities.


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## dvcochran (Feb 28, 2020)

That is an analogy that has been said many times using the "insert trade here" function to fit a persons work/job situation. 
There are truths in your(mothers) story but it leaves a lot out. It could be true that the tech did the physical, hands on work. But until someone explained the what and how, the tech had nothing to do (really did not know jack because there was nothing to know). Typically the customer generates the 'what', the engineer develops the 'how', and the tech is the facilitator. One of the best synergies between techs and engineers is working together to create/build a solution more efficiently.  

So I am not sure how that analogy applies to a MA environment where everyone is there to learn. 
The differences in applied belt levels between style/school that @JR 137 mentioned will always be there. It is simply differences within the styles and how they progress though the belts. To me, when it stands out is when you see obvious differences in students of the same style/organization but from different schools. I have seen it many times and would say I have never felt it is a curriculum issue but a training/trainer/student issue. 

Two instructors can teach the exact same curriculum and a high percentage of the time one instructors students will be 'better' than the other on average.


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## JR 137 (Feb 28, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is an analogy that has been said many times using the "insert trade here" function to fit a persons work/job situation.
> There are truths in your(mothers) story but it leaves a lot out. It could be true that the tech did the physical, hands on work. But until someone explained the what and how, the tech had nothing to do (really did not know jack because there was nothing to know). Typically the customer generates the 'what', the engineer develops the 'how', and the tech is the facilitator. One of the best synergies between techs and engineers is working together to create/build a solution more efficiently.
> 
> So I am not sure how that analogy applies to a MA environment where everyone is there to learn.
> ...


Or they’ll just be different. My teacher goes to our honbu to assist in black belt tests regularly. And he always accompanies his own students. He’s seen so many people test that he says he knows who practically everyone’s teacher is just by watching them on the floor. They consistently make the same mistakes, have their own subtle spin on things, and stuff like that. They all have the same curriculum.

The good thing is that there’s really not any group that stands out as below the rest. There has been a few over the years, but they’ve been worked with, spoken to, and sometimes shown the door. The students’ performance is equally, if not more of a reflection on the teacher than the student. Of course there’ll be one or two that maybe shouldn’t have been there yet, but if there’s a trend, the teacher’s the one who’s scrutinized. I really like that approach. It’s a “why are you bringing these people here who obviously aren’t ready” mindset.

Maybe my teacher’s a little too conservative; he hasn’t had anyone fail in his 30+ years. Then again, he hasn’t been criticized for holding people back either. I guess he knows who’s ready and who isn’t


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## KenpoMaster805 (Feb 28, 2020)

Some will get it in 7 years like me I had my 3rd degree brown since 2016 i need to test for my 2nd then my 1st then my black


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 29, 2020)

irondome said:


> I will call you now,.  Give me your number


What do you plan to call him about?


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## skribs (Feb 29, 2020)

kempodisciple said:


> What do you plan to call him about?



I think he's unstable.  He's demanding everyone apologize to him for calling him out, and he's asking for personal information on a public forum.  Definitely shady.


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## mrt2 (Feb 29, 2020)

JR 137 said:


> There’s no substitute for experience. And if you’re there to train for the long haul, what difference does it make?
> 
> My teacher had a coworker who was a 2nd dan at a local TKD chain school. He’d been training for about 3 years. He came to our school to try it out, as he was quite friendly with my teacher.
> 
> ...


Every school is different, and the belt color or rank only really applies to that specific school.  3 years to 2nd Dan sounds like a ridiculously short time to me as at my school, the minimum amount of time between 1st and 2nd Dan is 3 years, and that assumes you get the minimum amount of classes and pass a yearly point test every year.  If you miss it, you need to wait another 6 months to test, no exceptions. (there was a woman who missed her point test in December because she was sick with the flu.  It sucks but basically her progress towards 2nd Dan will have to be extended for another 6 months).  

The minimum time to 1st Dan is 2 years, though because of timing of the black belt tests, most people will take longer even assuming they don't miss any tests along the way.  Practically speaking, most people take between 2 and a half to 3 and a half years from white belt to black belt.

So to me, 5 to 7 years to 2nd Dan sounds about right.  3 years sounds way too short a time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 29, 2020)

mrt2 said:


> So to me, 5 to 7 years to 2nd Dan sounds about right. 3 years sounds way too short a time.


And, for perspective (supporting your major point here), 5 to 7 years to 1st dan sounds about right to me (it would actually likely take longer with me), plus another 3 to 2nd.


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## mrt2 (Feb 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> And, for perspective (supporting your major point here), 5 to 7 years to 1st dan sounds about right to me (it would actually likely take longer with me), plus another 3 to 2nd.


And that is absolutely fine.  If I came to your school with my 2 years plus of experience, I anticipate I would have to drop down a few belt ranks, maybe even all the way down to white belt.  Indeed, as a student with some experience but starting up a new style, maybe it is best to start with a white belt and go from there.

I think I said this before.  I have seen kids coming from other schools wearing high belts struggle to learn our curicullum.  One would think from one TKD school to another, they are pretty much the same, but I see kids wearing the equivalent of high brown or black belts who display at best a green belt level of proficiency, and I am not even talking about forms/kata.


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