# Ninja Swords



## Cryozombie (Mar 3, 2004)

Ok... I hear all the time that the "Short Straight Bladed Ninja Sword" is a myth and a Hollywoodism... and that they didnt exist

But in "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" by Dr Hatsumi, he states the Ninja's sword was a shorter, straight bladed version of the samurai's sword...

Also in Mr. Adams book "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins" there are pictures from a Ninja Museum in japan, and the weapons and armor in there, and there are clearly short, straight bladed swords in there.  

Also in some of my Sword books such as "Craft of the Japanese Sword" and "Swords and Hilt Weapons" they reference a "KoKuto" (or somthing similar, I think, Im at work, cant check now) which is a striaght bladed Japanese sword...

DID the ninja have Short, Straight Swords, or not?


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## Eldritch Knight (Mar 3, 2004)

The short, straight-bladed ones are the ones that they display in the Iga ninja museum in Nara and label as being actual ninja-to. I would personally put my money there if it got down to it.


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## heretic888 (Mar 3, 2004)

> Ok... I hear all the time that the "Short Straight Bladed Ninja Sword" is a myth and a Hollywoodism... and that they didnt exist



This topic is discussed in some depth here:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24094

Both Don Roley and Karl Friday give some good info on the subject.



> But in "Ninjutsu: History and Tradition" by Dr Hatsumi, he states the Ninja's sword was a shorter, straight bladed version of the samurai's sword...



Yes, but I've been told more than once that History and Tradition was actually "ghost-written" by Stephen Hayes. That's not a slam on him or Hatsumi, just what I've been told.

In fact, quite a few people attribute the "ninja straight sword" myth to Hayes. Dunno if that particular claim has any weight, but still...



> Also in Mr. Adams book "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins" there are pictures from a Ninja Museum in japan, and the weapons and armor in there, and there are clearly short, straight bladed swords in there.



Would anyone happen to know how old these supposed "straight swords" are?? Or, can anyone verify if they actually exist in the museum in question (which is curiously unnamed)??



> Also in some of my Sword books such as "Craft of the Japanese Sword" and "Swords and Hilt Weapons" they reference a "KoKuto" (or somthing similar, I think, Im at work, cant check now) which is a striaght bladed Japanese sword...



As I understand it, the choku-to design was quite popular during the Heian Period. But, it lost sway in favor of the superior curved blade design of the Sengoku Jidai.

Laterz.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 3, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Would anyone happen to know how old these supposed "straight swords" are?? Or, can anyone verify if they actually exist in the museum in question (which is curiously unnamed)??



I don't know about that, but if I remember correctly, that particular book was written in the early 1970's... maybe 71 or 72...

So it would be well before the "Ninja Craze" that supposedly spawned the Ninja-to myth, wouldnt it?


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## InvisibleFist (Mar 4, 2004)

The "Ninja Craze" of the eighties was not the first.  There was a raft of popular novels in 19th century Japan, that contricuted to the Ninja myth.  

In this countryThen there was Ian Flemming's "You Only Live Twice" and Don Draeger's books, that sparked the embers. 

There is nearly always a ten year lag between the publication of a book and a pop culture craze.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2004)

InvisibleFist said:
			
		

> There is nearly always a ten year lag between the publication of a book and a pop culture craze.



I'll buy that, but the information I have been presented with suggests that SK Hayes is the one who created the "myth" of the Ninja-to, which this book predates...  

Granted, there is a lot of false/misleading information in that book as well, I was just curious after looking at some of the pictures, and reading that quote in History and Tradition...


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Mar 4, 2004)

Nothing wrong with curiosity that is how some great things come from darkness into light.

Chicago Green Dragon

 :asian: 



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> I'll buy that, but the information I have been presented with suggests that SK Hayes is the one who created the "myth" of the Ninja-to, which this book predates...
> 
> Granted, there is a lot of false/misleading information in that book as well, I was just curious after looking at some of the pictures, and reading that quote in History and Tradition...


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## KyleShort (Mar 4, 2004)

Somewhat related:  I remember asking my sensei about the "unique" flavor of sword fighting that we employed in the bujinkan.  I asked if it was related to the so-called shorter, straight ninja-to.  He said no, it was actually due to the fact that Ninja were not a part of the wealthy class and had weapons that were very dull as compared to the samurai sword.

I believed it at first but later that night I realized what a load that was.  Most ninja were ronin samurai or had access to the blades of fallen samurai.  Or at the least they could buy or steal sammy blades.  Even if it came down to owning their own ninja-to blades, they could easily sharpen them =)

So, take what ever you are told with a grain of salt.  I think the shorter, straight blade design of the ninja-to would make sense given the nature of the ninja's work.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 5, 2004)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> I believed it at first but later that night I realized what a load that was.  Most ninja were ronin samurai or had access to the blades of fallen samurai.  Or at the least they could buy or steal sammy blades.  Even if it came down to owning their own ninja-to blades, they could easily sharpen them =)
> 
> So, take what ever you are told with a grain of salt.  I think the shorter, straight blade design of the ninja-to would make sense given the nature of the ninja's work.



Thats funny, because I had been told somthing similar... The blades were dull and they would take a chisel and "notch" them to make them like saw teeth so they would "tear" instead of cut...  

Lots of confusion and misinformation floating around out there.  I guess the real answers would be in the Scrolls, no?


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## stephen (Mar 5, 2004)

I've never seen Soke train with a hollywood "ninja-to". 

Stephen Kovalcik


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## sojobow (Mar 16, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> DID the ninja have Short, Straight Swords, or not?



Actually, you have asked a somewhat "loaded" question.  You would have had to either define "ninja" or at least present a time period relative to the weapon's use.  Example: During the time of En-go-Goyoja, were there warriors known as "ninja?"  If your answer is yes to this question, then, yes, the Ninja of En-No-Goyoja's period used straight swords as this is the weapon of the Teachers of that period going even back, at least, to Shotoku (600A.D)

If you are referencing the "Ninja" of the age Muromachi Period (basically, a 1,000 years later), the "Ninja" would then be utilizing a Katana type Sword.  The art of Ninjitsu constantly evolves to utilize the most efficient science to the particular date in question.  Even during this period, I personally would not argue against a "Ninja" actually owning both types of weapons and would use either depending on the task at hand as both (straight and curved) have certain strengths and weakness.

Personally, I do not know when history first described certain people as Ninja or certain behaviors as Ninja.  Thus, the question you ask really cannot be answered without first defining the protagonist.  Just a thought.  Good luck with this question, you've opened a can or worms - again.


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## Don Roley (Mar 16, 2004)

Anyone who might be wondering who Sojobow is or what his experience with the subject matter might be may want to read the following thread completely. The fun starts on page five.

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11243&pagenumber=1

Let the screaming and accusations against me begin.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 18, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Anyone who might be wondering who Sojobow is or what his experience with the subject matter might be may want to read the following thread completely. The fun starts on page five.
> 
> http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=11243&pagenumber=1
> 
> Let the screaming and accusations against me begin.


And against me too! I deserve screams and accusations too!

After all, he announced in that thread that he'd "received messages" from people who had "pointed out" "videos/pictures" of me to him, then when challenged on that wasn't able to verify it and say where these things could be obtained or viewed by others in the remaining three and a half days (minus 4 minutes) before the thread was shut down as a waste of bandwidth; whereupon I wrote, 


> *Sojobow, you are a liar.*


To give him some credit, he did make an attempt to appear to be answering my question by "explaining" why he couldn't give me information _which I had never asked for in the first place_, while also failing to provide the information I had asked for. Nice attempt at misdirection, but it didn't work.


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## sojobow (Mar 19, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> And against me too! I deserve screams and accusations too!
> 
> After all, he announced in that thread that he'd "received messages" from people who had "pointed out" "videos/pictures" of me to him, then when challenged on that wasn't able to verify it and say where these things could be obtained or viewed by others in the remaining three and a half days (minus 4 minutes) before the thread was shut down as a waste of bandwidth; whereupon I wrote,
> 
> To give him some credit, he did make an attempt to appear to be answering my question by "explaining" why he couldn't give me information _which I had never asked for in the first place_, while also failing to provide the information I had asked for. Nice attempt at misdirection, but it didn't work.



*Misdirection???? *I thought misdirection is a perfectly admirable technique for a martial artist! (Smile)

I see you and Mr. Roley still haven't given up.  We went through over 1,500 Replies and, most likely over 30,000 Views and you guys still lost.  Don't be upset, I previously went through a Frank Dux discussion that lasted over 3,500 Replies so your's, at e-budo, wasn't the thread of all threads.

*You called me a liar* because I wouldn't tell you where the messengers saw your video/pictures.  Strange thing is that *you - yourself posted your own pictures on the thread discussed. * Figured you would someday figure that little one out.  Now, am I lying or *did you, or did you not post your own pictures on that thread?* So, you, and everyone else, can view the pictures that you, yourself, posted on your own website.   That's one!!!!!

As far as Dr. Friday (whom I have great respect) and Mr. Roley's great insights into the Ninja-To discussions on e-budo, suffice it to say that both of them did, in fact, say that they really didn't know as the history (to them) is unclear.  If Mr. Roley wants to be this 'great historian of traditional Japanese martial arts,' maybe he should stand up for something and stop leaving these little back doors to slip out of.  Its a simple question: "did the Ninja use a straight sword?"  The history is quite clear, in my opinion, and I don't proclaim to be some type of "great protector of japanese martial arts."

Since you guys couldn't prove one single point in over 1,500 posts, closing the thread and rationalizing it as a waste of bandwidth is appropriate.  After all, it is your Forum.

Would you both please just leave the subject of sojobow alone.  He's a myth remember  -  or is he real?............................................... (couldn't figure out that one either could you?)  That's two.

Lets just be fellow men interested in The Way.  Lets just drop all the drama, whining, crying and begging and deal with what we all have in common as martial artist and scientist.  Let the "screams and accusations " cease.

Be well,

sojobow


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## Kreth (Mar 19, 2004)

sojobow said:
			
		

> We went through over 1,500 Replies and, most likely over 30,000 Views and you guys still lost.


How did they lose? I skimmed through the thread on E-baka (painful as it was), and saw you avoid question after question. In fact, I don't believe I saw you answer a single question posed to you. You used quite a bit of misdirection, straw-man arguments, etc. but basically said nothing for all your posts...

Jeff


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## sojobow (Mar 22, 2004)

KyleShort said:
			
		

> So, take what ever you are told with a grain of salt.  I think the shorter, straight blade design of the ninja-to would make sense given the nature of the ninja's work.



Visited a Doctor this week who happened to have a collection of Japanese paintings.  Most depicted common people of modest wealth with Katana type swords.  Some had personal servants carrying the sword for them.  Pictures of men at war also depicted the use of katanas.  Most of the pictures were circa 1800.  I asked the Doctor if he had any earlier dated paintings that might show a "Ninja" type warrior.  His response was that the "Ninja" pictures were of a much earlier period and that few (if any) exist today.  But he did say maybe common sense would lead one to believe that these people rarely were seen in public in full dress with weapons and that someone carrying a Ninja-to type sword would be a dead giveaway in  identifying them so they would dress and arm themselves in public to resemble the general population.


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