# Buying a home.



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

So the plan to Escape from NY has to be put on hold for a while. Between the economy being as it is, employment opportunities slim, and not a huge coffer to cover a cross country move and several months of looking, etc we decided to look local for a place to call our own. After 4 months looking, we finally found one, put a bid in and it was accepted.  Now we wait for the lawyer review, home inspection then the mortgage application.

Fingers crossed, we should be good to go somewhere in March and moved in before April 1st. 

Nice little 3 bedroom on a double lot. Lots of natural woodwork and real wood floors, a sweet 2 1/2 car garage (perfect for a studio) and a good amount of land for being in the city.


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## Carol (Jan 26, 2012)

Soooooo very happy for you!!!  Yaaaay!!!    

Keep me posted, if I can at all swing it, I will come out to help you move.  I hate that I didn't have the $$ to make it out for your wedding, I hope that I can make it out to help celebrate your new home.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

uhhhh, sounds exiting!

Keeping fingers crossed!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

http://www.nothnaglehtc.com/Properties/Gallery.aspx?MLS=19&M=B400479((Link Removed as broken))

$79,900 Neighborhoods decent. I grew up a few streets over.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 26, 2012)

Congrats Bob I hope it all works out!


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

But you need this for the kitchen:


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## Gemini (Jan 26, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> So the plan to Escape from NY has to be put on hold for a while. Between the economy being as it is, employment opportunities slim, and not a huge coffer to cover a cross country move and several months of looking, etc we decided to look local for a place to call our own. After 4 months looking, we finally found one, put a bid in and it was accepted.  Now we wait for the lawyer review, home inspection then the mortgage application.
> 
> Fingers crossed, we should be good to go somewhere in March and moved in before April 1st.
> 
> Nice little 3 bedroom on a double lot. Lots of natural woodwork and real wood floors, a sweet 2 1/2 car garage (perfect for a studio) and a good amount of land for being in the city.



New York is truly a beautiful state! You almost make me homesick...right up until I remember the taxes... Congrats though!


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> $79,900 Neighborhoods decent. I grew up a few streets over.




Is that the right price? I ask because for a simliar house here it would be about $353,000 at least. A semi detached three bedroom house in North Yorkshire on a not too good neighbourhood will cost you £100,000. London and surrounds don't even think about it, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it!


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## Gemini (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is that the right price?


Bob's back yard is Canada. :uhyeah:


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> But you need this for the kitchen:



Hammer fixes everything


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 26, 2012)

Congratulations Bob, I hope all goes well


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is that the right price? I ask because for a simliar house here it would be about $353,000 at least. A semi detached three bedroom house in North Yorkshire on a not too good neighbourhood will cost you £100,000. London and surrounds don't even think about it, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it!



Yep, that's the right price.  The Buffalo area's mostly missed the real estate boom and bust cycle. I've been saying they're stuck in the 80's for years, lol.

Buffalo average price for a home is $60-100k.  Average taxes are about $1500/yr.  Subburbs depending on which one, double and triple those taxes, with home prices in the $90k and up range.  We looked at some open houses in the $750k range...loved them of course. But way out of my budget.


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## granfire (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is that the right price? I ask because for a simliar house here it would be about $353,000 at least. A semi detached three bedroom house in North Yorkshire on a not too good neighbourhood will cost you £100,000. London and surrounds don't even think about it, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it!




But you build houses from stone...smart little piggies that you are.
We build houses from sticks. They do blow away a lot.... (we had another tornado last Monday)



(They took your house off the market! )


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## Empty Hands (Jan 26, 2012)

Congrats Bob.  We are in the middle of this process right now.  Except we are bidding on a home in Maine, which only my wife has physically been to, we started looking less than two weeks ago and we have to close by March 3-4.  The new job came in a hurry.


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## MJS (Jan 26, 2012)

Congrats Bob!!  I hope it works out for both of you!


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

granfire said:


> But you build houses from stone...smart little piggies that you are.
> We build houses from sticks. They do blow away a lot.... (we had another tornado last Monday)
> 
> 
> ...



We do moan about our whether but I don't think we actually know how lucky we are with it really.

At those house prices I'd come across and buy a house but for the fact there's be a load of MTers at my door annoyed at something I've written lol! though perhaps if they did they'd realise how mild I am on here 

Houses here are made of stone or brick usually, new ones are breeze block with stone or brick facing. Some houses in parts of the country are made of cob.
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-glorious-mud-homes-made-of-earth-932752.html


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

I always liked cob as building material from what I've seen on it.  Plus, foot thick walls are nicely insulated.


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## jks9199 (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is that the right price? I ask because for a simliar house here it would be about $353,000 at least. A semi detached three bedroom house in North Yorkshire on a not too good neighbourhood will cost you £100,000. London and surrounds don't even think about it, if you have to ask the price you can't afford it!



It's all about location...  A similar place where I live would run $300K to $400K.  But where I work..  It'd be closer to $800K.   Move another 30 to 40 minutes west of me, and it's be around $200K.

When my wife heard how much I paid for my townhouse... she was a bit in shock.  Where she grew up in Missouri... I could have bought a HUGE single family place, on a HUGE lot.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> $79,900 Neighborhoods decent. I grew up a few streets over.



wow, my down payment was more than that and I've got all of one bedroom and a back yard rimmed by fencing 25 feet by 65 feet. And that was a "nicely" priced forclosed property AND I'm not even technically in San Francisco anymore. Just over the line. If I was still in SF I would probably have another 100K on the price.

AND I needed to put in a new foundation...

that's San Francisco real estate for you.

Well, congrats, it is nice to have your own home to do with as you please.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

Since the link broke, heres some pics.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

Few more


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

Price includes washer, dryer, stove and fridge.  Furnace and HW heater are 3 years old, roofs 11.


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## jks9199 (Jan 26, 2012)

Kitchen does need some help...  I'd have to guess who ever "designed" it when it was redone didn't really plan to cook in it.  Looks like your work "triangle" is more like a line.

Start to budget for redoing the roof fairly soon (3 to 5 years), I suspect, based on age alone.  Depends a little on the job that was done, but I figure that Buffalo winters aren't gentle on roofs...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

from the ground the roof looks pretty decent, but the inspector will eyeball it. Docs say it's a 30 year roof and was a full tear off and plywooding when they did it.

Kitchen, yeah...sink position isn't optimal, and no dishwasher.  But that's not super hard to resolve later.  Lots of room for a floating island.


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## Big Don (Jan 27, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hammer fixes everything



True, but, what you really need is a FUBAR
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 rip out studs, pull nails, pry things, beat people...


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## oftheherd1 (Jan 27, 2012)

I guess the first photo is your new darkroom, since I see in number 7 that you have a spacious outhouse?   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Congratulations on the new home.  It looks really nice.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2012)

#5 2.5 car garage, with 14 outlets and a high ceiling.  Photo Studio. 

The outhouse looking things for the lawn mower and snow blower and maybe a model that misbehaves.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 27, 2012)

I will offer only a couple paranoid pieces of advice.

1) Buy flood insurance.  Traditional homeowners' insurance does not cover flood damage.  If you are not in a 100-year floodplain, it's really cheap. And it only takes one flood.
2) Get the rider on your homeowner's police that covers damage due to water damage if it is not present.  It's a loophole that many homeowners find out after they have damage due to something like a water drain backup, and find that no one covers it.  Bad mojo.

http://www.iinc.org/articles/18/1/Flood-Damage-Vs-Water-Damage/Page1.html

Both can be added to your monthly mortgage payment so they don't bill you separately.


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## shihansmurf (Jan 31, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> 2) Get the rider on your homeowner's police that covers damage due to water damage if it is not present. It's a loophole that many homeowners find out after they have damage due to something like a water drain backup, and find that no one covers it. Bad mojo.



Quoted for truth!

I found out about this the hard way a few years ago in AZ. The house I own has a swamp cooler mounted on the roof. The sea;s broke and it overflowed into the attic. $800.00 worth of damage. 

I got the rider and wish I had known about it before.

Congrats on the house.

Mark


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 31, 2012)

Had the house inspected, mostly ok.  Some concerns with the basement that are looking to be addressed, a leak in the garage that seems to be resolvable, and some electric issues we're negotiating about now.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 31, 2012)

shihansmurf said:


> Quoted for truth!
> 
> I found out about this the hard way a few years ago in AZ. The house I own has a swamp cooler mounted on the roof. The sea;s broke and it overflowed into the attic. $800.00 worth of damage.
> 
> ...



I'm sorry you had uncovered damage.  It's a dirty little secret of the insurance industry; they don't insure water damage and they don't tell you (it's in the policy of course, but who reads every line of it?).  They'll happily sell you the rider, if you ask for it, and it's not that expensive; but you have to ask.  How's that for f'd up?


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## Empty Hands (Jan 31, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm sorry you had uncovered damage.  It's a dirty little secret of the insurance industry; they don't insure water damage and they don't tell you (it's in the policy of course, but who reads every line of it?).  They'll happily sell you the rider, if you ask for it, and it's not that expensive; but you have to ask.  How's that for f'd up?



This is one reason I love the internet, it reduces the information asymmetry we consumers normally face.  When we started looking at for a house, the internet proved to be a fountain of useful information like that, information you would normally have to find out the hard way.  Especially since we are moving to the northeast with an oil/boiler/water heating system and a septic tank, which we have never had before.


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## Sukerkin (Jan 31, 2012)

Congratulations on the new home, Cap'n - as you say, that wood panelling looks very nice :tup:.  And all for the price of a waste-paper-basket-sized flat in the South of England :lol:.  My house cost (I won't say is 'worth' because it isn't) three times that and it's a semi-detached next to a dual-carriageway :faints:


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 31, 2012)

Empty Hands said:


> This is one reason I love the internet, it reduces the information asymmetry we consumers normally face.  When we started looking at for a house, the internet proved to be a fountain of useful information like that, information you would normally have to find out the hard way.  Especially since we are moving to the northeast with an oil/boiler/water heating system and a septic tank, which we have never had before.



Underground oil tank?  If so, another beware!  The EPA is requiring people to dig up their oil tanks at their own expense, and it's not something you can do with a shovel; has to be removed like asbestos, by a trained team.  Again, you can purchase insurance against same, but only if you know it and take action before being tagged by the EPA.


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## Empty Hands (Jan 31, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Underground oil tank?  If so, another beware!  The EPA is requiring people to dig up their oil tanks at their own expense, and it's not something you can do with a shovel; has to be removed like asbestos, by a trained team.  Again, you can purchase insurance against same, but only if you know it and take action before being tagged by the EPA.



Nope, above ground, in the basement.  Also compliant with Maine's recent law requiring double walled tanks.  The leakage issue was another helpful hint we knew going in thanks to the internet.


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## Carol (Feb 1, 2012)

Dang, I missed that in my own policy.  Its up for renewal.   Thanks Bill, I'll be taking a closer look at that for sure!


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 1, 2012)

Carol said:


> Dang, I missed that in my own policy.  Its up for renewal.   Thanks Bill, I'll be taking a closer look at that for sure!



I hope it helps.  It's amazing how many things they just don't tell you about.  Did you know if you call with policy questions, they can (and do) consider that a 'claim' and uprate you accordingly?  We called twice on our auto insurance to see if broken glass was covered (it was, but it cost less than our deductible so we didn't file a claim).  Both calls are considered 'claims' and even though we have a new auto insurance company now, they have access to that and we pay more for our 'two claims'.  And no, you can't contest that.

http://www.fool.com/personal-finance/home/home-insurance-gotchas.aspx


http://www.dec.ny.gov/chemical/32263.html



> Even if your heating oil tank is unregulated, you probably know that a leak could be very unfortunate - not only for the environment, but for your pocketbook too. When an underground tank or pipe leaks, the cleanup can cost $20,000 or more. And if your homeowner's insurance policy contains a *"pollution exclusion"* clause, which many do, you could get stuck with the bill.



http://www.iinc.org/articles/18/1/Flood-Damage-Vs-Water-Damage/Page1.html



> FLOOD INSURANCE
> 
> As the name implies, a standard flood insurance policy, which is written by the National Flood Insurance Program, provides coverage up to the policy limit for damage caused by flood. The dictionary defines "flood" as a rising and overflowing of a body of water onto normally dry land. For insurance purposes, the word "rising" in this definition is the key to distinguishing flood damage from water damage. Generally, damage caused by water that has been on the ground at some point before damaging your home is considered to be flood damage. A handful of examples of flood damage include:
> 
> ...



FYI, in my experience, homeowners insurance does NOT cover water damage, for example due to backed-up drains, etc, unless you purchase a specific rider on your police.  ASK YOUR AGENT or you may end up sucking up the water and the cost of the damages yourself.

I know my neighbor in NC got screwed; the water main broke, but it was in her front yard.  The city fixed it, but sent her the bill.  He sent it to his insurance company and NO DICE they refused to pay.  $6,000 she had to eat it herself.  Oh, and another $600 to the water company for the water itself.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 1, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Since the link broke, heres some pics.



I call dibs on the little red shed for where I stay when I come to visit! :~D


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## granfire (Feb 1, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> I call dibs on the little red shed for where I stay when I come to visit! :~D





Hoping for a misbehaving model in there?


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## Gemini (Feb 1, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> I call dibs on the little red shed for where I stay when I come to visit! :~D


I think that's spoken for. I believe the large spare processing tray in the "Darkroom" is for guests. When not in use, of course.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 1, 2012)

Still gotta see if we can resolve the inspection issues and clear financing.  



It's been an annoying day.


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## Carol (Feb 1, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> FYI, in my experience, homeowners insurance does NOT cover water damage, for example due to backed-up drains, etc, unless you purchase a specific rider on your police.  ASK YOUR AGENT or you may end up sucking up the water and the cost of the damages yourself.
> 
> I know my neighbor in NC got screwed; the water main broke, but it was in her front yard.  The city fixed it, but sent her the bill.  He sent it to his insurance company and NO DICE they refused to pay.  $6,000 she had to eat it herself.  Oh, and another $600 to the water company for the water itself.



Oy. And I have a condo .... for that sort of issue, where does my responsibility stop and the HOA's begin?  I'm curious to what the agent will say.

Helps a lot, this is an awesome discussion .....many many thanks :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 4, 2012)

House update. Most concerns resolved satisfactory, working on last issue which will hopefully be worked out by mid-week. So, so far, we're on track to close.  After this, need to deal with appraiser and bank.  Whee.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 4, 2012)

Fingers crossed, Bob :tup:.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 4, 2012)

The electrician came in, basically agreed 95% with the inspector. Said the guy who wired the house didn't know what he was doing.  We need a new cable from the utility company split, possibly new meter, new cable into the house, and by code a new master panel inside.  Line to the garage needs to be rerun, and the panel in there replaced.  Electricians going to send a quote to the home owners agent, and we'll be going from there.  Ball park was $800-1,600.


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## Gemini (Feb 4, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The electrician came in, basically agreed 95% with the inspector. Said the guy who wired the house didn't know what he was doing.  We need a new cable from the utility company split, possibly new meter, new cable into the house, and by code a new master panel inside.  Line to the garage needs to be rerun, and the panel in there replaced.  Electricians going to send a quote to the home owners agent, and we'll be going from there.  Ball park was $800-1,600.


 Uh, not to sound discouraging, but I'd lean on the $1600 side of that. Hidden electrical isn't the place to get cheap and they know it.


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## Carol (Feb 4, 2012)

Gemini said:


> Uh, not to sound discouraging, but I'd lean on the $1600 side of that. Hidden electrical isn't the place to get cheap and they know it.



Yup.  Whatever they said, double it.  That will be the size of the check you actually write when they are done.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 4, 2012)

We've reserved the right to get another estimate.


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## jks9199 (Feb 4, 2012)

How'd the floor issue come out?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 4, 2012)

Basement's been pretty dry the last few times we've been in to check and we've had some rains and thaws so I'm feeling better about it.  The walls were stone that's been sealed, cemented  and waterproofed. I can see possibly jackhammering the floor out down the road and getting it redone but it's not a 'need it in the next few years' thing.


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## jks9199 (Feb 4, 2012)

Just a thought -- but you might want to start budgeting for a structural engineer's assessment down the road.  It may just be that the floor is old enough to be having some failures.  Or... there could be a lot more.  Did the inspector say anything about foundations?  My fear would be that there are problems under the floor or under the foundation, deeper than a little water infiltration.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 4, 2012)

The assessor we're expecting has a track record of pointing those things out, real nitpicker. But I'll def. keep that in mind.  Foundations though looked good. No cracks in the walls, paint wasn't recent so that looked ok.  Floor was painted recently which was a red flag.


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## Monroe (Feb 4, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> FYI, in my experience, homeowners insurance does NOT cover water damage, for example due to backed-up drains, etc, unless you purchase a specific rider on your police.  ASK YOUR AGENT or you may end up sucking up the water and the cost of the damages yourself.
> 
> I know my neighbor in NC got screwed; the water main broke, but it was in her front yard.  The city fixed it, but sent her the bill.  He sent it to his insurance company and NO DICE they refused to pay.  $6,000 she had to eat it herself.  Oh, and another $600 to the water company for the water itself.



Really? Our old house had water damage on the ground floor ceiling. Apparently a pipe inside the ceiling had made contact with the dry wall. Condensation built up and slowly created water damage. We didn't notice until little pieces of the ceiling started falling down. It didn't occur to me that my insurance wouldn't cover it. I called them up immediately and they sent adjusters around and recommended someone to redo our ceiling. But maybe that's completely different to backed up drains and broken water mains.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 12, 2012)

Looks like this ones falling through.  The inspector found a concern with the electric. Estimated $800-1,600 to fix.  Owners brought in an electrician who wasn't licensed to work in Buffalo who agreed with our inspectors assessment. Not sure what his estimate was, but they offered a $1,000 credit back. We brought in our own electrician, who agreed with the work needed that the previous 2 indicated, but gave an estimate of $3,400. The owners are offering $2k and being a bit stubborn.   Given we also have a concern with the roof, drainage of the property and water damage in the garage, we're insistent that the electric be resolved by someone properly licensed, who will do things by the book, to code and not cut corners. We've indicated our willingness to walk, and it's looking like that may be the result.  Bit bummed, but there's other houses and we'll find ours sooner or later.


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2012)

Sorry to hear that, but,sometimes its better to walk away from a headache.  However things go I hope they go for the best!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Looks like this ones falling through.  The inspector found a concern with the electric. Estimated $800-1,600 to fix.  Owners brought in an electrician who wasn't licensed to work in Buffalo who agreed with our inspectors assessment. Not sure what his estimate was, but they offered a $1,000 credit back. We brought in our own electrician, who agreed with the work needed that the previous 2 indicated, but gave an estimate of $3,400. The owners are offering $2k and being a bit stubborn.   Given we also have a concern with the roof, drainage of the property and water damage in the garage, we're insistent that the electric be resolved by someone properly licensed, who will do things by the book, to code and not cut corners. We've indicated our willingness to walk, and it's looking like that may be the result.  Bit bummed, but there's other houses and we'll find ours sooner or later.



I had somethingsimilar happen during my last house search and it was actually a blessing. Ihad a horrible gut feeling about the house form the beginning but my wife andeveryone else seemed to like it. When the inspector found a big-time electricalissue and a foundation issue I felt a great weight lift from my shoulders. 

2 weeks later I found a great house but it was a bit outside of our range formwork we had set so I did not mention it to my wife. a couple of days later mywife told me about a house she found during a web search, that was a littleoutside of the range we set for travel to work.... it was the same house. Itpassed with flying colors and we bought it, no feelings of dread at all.Actually I am rather happy about it and you know it came with a clean andrather huge basement with an extra high ceiling CMA weapons forms friendly :EG:

You will find a house


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## Gemini (Feb 13, 2012)

It's always a let down, but I agree, the right house is out there. I've also had an instance with a house falling through, and while being bummed initially, turned out to be a huge blessing.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 13, 2012)

Sellers have agreed to full concessions. Realtor now working up amended contract for lawyers to review. Might just get this house after all.  Guess I should start packing huh?


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## Carol (Feb 14, 2012)

Woo Hoo!!  *dancing happy dance*

Now don't go moving in a snowstorm, ya hear?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 14, 2012)

Closing is March 30th, so hopefully we won't. 


Once we're in, I get the 'fun' of digging a french drain and dry well to divert the water by the garage. 
By hand.
Think I can cancel my gym membership....moving that much earth and gravel's gonna be a nice work out. LOL


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2012)

Bob -- be careful with that digging.  You've already got back issues, and that's going to put a hell of a lot of stress on your back.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 14, 2012)

Sadly, I know.  Shoveling snow kicks my ***.  Can't wait to see what 2-4 tons of gravel do to me.  I've got a couple people to help out.  I'd hire someone to do it, but its $400-600 this way, $2k that way.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Sadly, I know.  Shoveling snow kicks my ***.  Can't wait to see what 2-4 tons of gravel do to me.  I've got a couple people to help out.  I'd hire someone to do it, but its $400-600 this way, $2k that way.



Make sure you put that good import on ice! And have the BBQ ready!!!!
(and invest in good landscaper professional shovels and wheel barrel!) 

And save up for one of them fancy snowplow things! I hear people raving about them, how they never go back to manual!
Plus you can score brownie points with the neighbors!


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Sadly, I know.  Shoveling snow kicks my ***.  Can't wait to see what 2-4 tons of gravel do to me.  I've got a couple people to help out.  I'd hire someone to do it, but its $400-600 this way, $2k that way.


Not that I'd endorse supporting illegal aliens... but you just might find a few guys hanging around a 7-11 or Home Depot that may not be fluent in English, but are fluent in hard work, at considerably lower rates...  if ya'know what I'm sayin'.


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## Gemini (Feb 14, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Not that I'd endorse supporting illegal aliens... but you just might find a few guys hanging around a 7-11 or Home Depot that may not be fluent in English, but are fluent in hard work, at considerably lower rates...  if ya'know what I'm sayin'.


Kinda what I was thinking...


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## Carol (Feb 14, 2012)

Or Craig's List.  Couple of guys working with me at the hackerspace spend a lot of time on Craig's List looking for pickup work.   They aren't illegals, just guys strapped for cash because their own businesses aren't doing well.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Not that I'd endorse supporting illegal aliens... but you just might find a few guys hanging around a 7-11 or Home Depot that may not be fluent in English, but are fluent in hard work, at considerably lower rates...  if ya'know what I'm sayin'.





Gemini said:


> Kinda what I was thinking...



Just don't tell billi!


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## Gemini (Feb 14, 2012)

[/QUOTE]





granfire said:


> Just don't tell billi!


Tell 'em what? :angel:



Carol said:


> Or Craig's List.  Couple of guys working with me at the hackerspace spend a lot of time on Craig's List looking for pickup work.   They aren't illegals, just guys strapped for cash because their own businesses aren't doing well.


True. It's not like you can hire a bunch of local teenagers to do it. I tell my kids I used to shovel driveways for a quarter and all I get is "Well, it's not our fault we're smarter than you were." :mst:


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## Carol (Feb 14, 2012)

> True. It's not like you can hire a bunch of local teenagers to do it. I tell my kids I used to shovel driveways for a quarter and all I get is "Well, it's not our fault we're smarter than you were." :mst:


  Annoying when they have a point, isn't it?  :lol:  To be honest...I'm more concerned about the parents.  Teens will just tell you to go pound sand.  But when mommy or daddy is an attorney that doesn't want the little precious getting hurt.....ugh.....

The pitch I use with the niece and nephews is get yourself a darn good education so you can have someone else do it.  Gotta live by example


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 14, 2012)

For the snow, I'll have a blower.  I'm actually back in not minding snow too much...the mild winter WNY's had I guess.


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## Gemini (Feb 14, 2012)

'Til ya get hold of some of that good wet stuff. plop plop plop


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