# Titles : Master , Grand Master



## NanFeiShen (Jul 13, 2007)

Titles seem so important in the eyes of many western students, Sifu, Master , Grand Master, and looking around the web at variuos pages and links, one sees a few teachers with the titles Master or Grand Master, now my question is:
Taking knowledge, both theoretical and practical into account, plus experience and years spent, what defines a Master and a Grand Master?

IMHO, a Sifu is a teacher of students, a Master is a teacher of Sifu's (an individual who has a school that runs subschools each being run by a Sifu), and a Grand Master is an individual who has students who are Masters, each running their own schools with sub-schools/branches which are being run by Sifu's.
Therefore there should be a fair amount of individuals who claim the title Master, but very few who can lay claim to the title Grand Master.

Or am i in the wrong frame of mind with this?.


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## Hand Sword (Jul 13, 2007)

No. Sounds about right to me.


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 13, 2007)

I don't know alot about this either, but from my limited understanding I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???


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## jagenheie (Jul 13, 2007)

in my art the grand master is the one person that has learned everything the art has to offer his teacher who was the grand master is now the great grandmaster and his teacher who was the first grandmaster is the great great grandmaster


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## Jdokan (Jul 13, 2007)

That's pretty much how I intrepret it and how it worked in the organizations I have belonged to...


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 13, 2007)

I much preferred the connotation the word "Master" had in old England: Simply That older guy who was teaching you his subject. Nothing more.


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## Drac (Jul 13, 2007)

Jade Tigress said:


> I don't know alot about this either, but from my limited understanding I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???


 
That was my understanding as well....


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## MaartenSFS (Jul 14, 2007)

It all really depends who is translating. I can tell you that in Chinese Shifu means "teacher father" and anyone that is a qualified professional in any field can be called this. Then there are VERY specific words for the positions above that all the way up to great great great grandmaster et cetera, but worded much more complicated. And pretty much most of it is farce, tradition, and rumour/legend - mostly farce.


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## Boomer (Jul 14, 2007)

I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing  egotistical hooey.

If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility?  A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.  

I've had the same quote ever since I joined this forum, and I firmly believe it.  Unless you have slaves of some sort, there is no need to be called "master".


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## NanFeiShen (Jul 14, 2007)

Thanx for the interesting and varied answers, it is nice to hear all the different points of view. 



Jade Tigress said:


> I don't know alot about this either, but from my limited understanding I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???



Good point, I never considered that , but another embodiment of the Title Grand Master that i have encountered ,(and never included in my original ) was the last in the line of a particular style, the most senior practitioner of a particular system.



Boomer said:


> I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing  egotistical hooey.
> 
> If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility?  A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.



I hear you on this one.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 14, 2007)

> I thought Sifu and Master were the same thing, and a Grand Master was someone who created their own system. ???


 
Sifu is usualy just a black belt instructor in many systems and under a Master. A grandmaster can be one who started an organisation  OR a person who has studied many years and inherited the title upon the death or retirement of the present Grandmaster


NOW I may be inncorect on this and it may varry from system to system.


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## qi-tah (Jul 14, 2007)

Boomer said:


> I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing egotistical hooey.
> 
> If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility? A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.
> 
> I've had the same quote ever since I joined this forum, and I firmly believe it. Unless you have slaves of some sort, there is no need to be called "master".


 
I have no problem calling my teacher "Master Shao", I respect him and if that's how he prefers being addressed by his students then that's ok by me. It's just a title after all, the respect is the most important thing.


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## oxy (Jul 14, 2007)

Boomer said:


> I believe that anything more than "teacher", "Mr./Miss/Mrs./Ms.", "sir/ma'am", or the designated equivalent of each of those by language or style is self aggrandizing  egotistical hooey.
> 
> If we are instructors on the martial path, shouldn't we be setting the example of humility?  A respectful utterance of "sensei" suits me just fine.
> 
> I've had the same quote ever since I joined this forum, and I firmly believe it.  Unless you have slaves of some sort, there is no need to be called "master".



But doesn't "humility" sometimes involve calling the other person master?

My teacher's teacher had a de facto standard in which everyone called everyone else Si Hing no matter who joined the school first.


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## Boomer (Jul 14, 2007)

> Sifu is usualy just a black belt instructor in many systems and under a Master. A grandmaster can be one who started an organisation OR a person who has studied many years and inherited the title upon the death or retirement of the present Grandmaster


 
It has been my experience in studying ying jow pai, a shaolin system, that they follow the ranking order of the monks.  The teacher of the school was _sifu_, his instructor was a notch higher and called _segung_, and the "abbot"/ grand master was _se tai gung._


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## Kacey (Jul 14, 2007)

NanFeiShen said:


> IMHO, a Sifu is a teacher of students, a Master is a teacher of Sifu's (an individual who has a school that runs subschools each being run by a Sifu), and a Grand Master is an individual who has students who are Masters, each running their own schools with sub-schools/branches which are being run by Sifu's.



In general, I would agree with your sequence; those with integrity will follow such a system, and those without... well... it really doesn't matter to them what the rest of us think, does it?


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## Jade Tigress (Jul 15, 2007)

To my understanding, "Sifu" _is_ the Cantonese word for "Master", no?


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## LawDog (Jul 15, 2007)

Most of the Kung Fu Masters that I know have told me that Sifu is a Master and Sigung is the same as a black belt.


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## Boomer (Jul 15, 2007)

I found three decent links that have definitions for sifu and sigung:


http://www.dstaiji.com/glossary.html

http://www.authentickungfu.com/seven_star/explanations.html

http://www.kungfu-videos.com/learn_about_Ving_Tsun.html#terminology



I obviously am not a fan of the whole title thing.  I will say that culturally it fits easterners far better than westerners.  In Asian culture, to have a master took a different connotation than here in the west, and I feel that we in the west have abused the title of "master" for our own egos.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Jul 15, 2007)

LawDog said:


> Most of the Kung Fu Masters that I know have told me that Sifu is a Master and Sigung is the same as a black belt.


 

Sigung is higher in rank than Sifu.  Perhaps you're confusing it with Si Hing which would be the title of a Senior Student.


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## HKphooey (Jul 16, 2007)

I just hope I never train with a teacher with last name of Bates!


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## oxy (Jul 16, 2007)

HKphooey said:


> I just hope I never train with a teacher with last name of Bates!



So... I gather you had experience with a 'Sifu Bates' who made you go blind (possibly by gauging your eyes)?


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## Steel Tiger (Jul 18, 2007)

NanFeiShen said:


> Titles seem so important in the eyes of many western students, Sifu, Master , Grand Master, and looking around the web at variuos pages and links, one sees a few teachers with the titles Master or Grand Master, now my question is:
> Taking knowledge, both theoretical and practical into account, plus experience and years spent, what defines a Master and a Grand Master?
> 
> IMHO, a Sifu is a teacher of students, a Master is a teacher of Sifu's (an individual who has a school that runs subschools each being run by a Sifu), and a Grand Master is an individual who has students who are Masters, each running their own schools with sub-schools/branches which are being run by Sifu's.
> ...


 
It would be really nice if worked this well, but it doesn't.  For instance, I am a teacher and thus can be called Sifu (though I don't normally use it), but my level of rank is called Master.  My teacher is also both Sifu and Master, but his teacher we call "Lao Shi" (literally "old snake") which is a term of respect for a teacher.  His rank, however, is Grandmaster.  So he is Chan Lao Shi and he is a Sifu and Grandmaster.

In general, though, the ranks are of little importance in CMA.  The two that are most important are student (whether it be Si Shon, Si Di, or Si Hing) and teacher (Sifu).


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## Changhfy (Jul 21, 2007)

To add my opinion.

Based on traditional Wu Gong culture and etiquette (Mo Da/Wu Da)

Generally speaking the Grandmaster is one who has express privelage to carry on a lineage or family line. This being the case the Grandmaster is given the title of Byun Jyun or Protector. 

The Todai that have Bai Si to the Byun Jyun can then carry on the lineage and once complete the family system and are able to express the Dai Ji Sum Fat. They can be awarded the title of Master.

Take note their are several pre qualifications that the Dai Ji must express before the title is awarded including:

Must have mental knowledge of the system. (History, concepts, techniques, methods, ability to transmit the methods, etc...)

The second pre qualification is physical knowledge. (whats known as body karma, ability to express the system under live energy, understand the faat with Sum, etc...)

The third is loyalty to the byun jyun and the Gar Pai.

These are an example of some of the things that are needed to be awarded the title of Master. (but not everybody teaches or uses this method)


take care


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## Kwanslove (Jul 29, 2007)

*Hey guys I thought I'll join in on this discussion.*

*Liu He Ba Fa master shared this with me.*

*A sifu is one who teaches an art, this is a title of respect.*

*A master is one who has developed his own school of thought.*

*Most people might get stuck on the school of thought part because they might assumed everyone has an opinion on the art after a while. But no this is more than an opinion it is a philosophy and the teachers own special discipline that will lead the students to their total potential understanding. *

*Confusias opened his own school of thought, so did Chen Tuan, Zhang San Feng. But this is not limited to just these famous persons many sifu like Chen Xiaowang of the Chen branch of Taiji began his own school of thought based upon silk reeling. Chen proposes silk reeling is the key to Tajiquan understanding and promotes it. Many Abbots of Shaolin have taken Shaolin down different courses based upon their own philosophies. *

*Now a grand master is simply a master who has become famous for grand means great. Many fighters became famous but this doesn't make them a great master.A great master is one who passes down to the next generation so that they may have the treasures to cherish and evolve. A big sign of a great master is this ability to pass down his teachings to the young so that the light might not be lost. It is an act of atruism and love so to be a great master one who have to have shown much evolution and growth to the higher realms.*


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## pstarr (Aug 8, 2007)

I don't believe the terms "Master" or "Grandmaster" were ever used in the Orient...those titles appeared after the martial arts reached western shores...


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 9, 2007)

pstarr said:


> I don't believe the terms "Master" or "Grandmaster" were ever used in the Orient...those titles appeared after the martial arts reached western shores...


 
I think that the term master was probably used but its scope was very specific.  It denoted the senior member of a master/disciple or apprentice relationship, which of course could occur in many fields, not just the martial arts.

On the other hand, I agree completely about Grandmaster.  it appears to be MA specific and a modern creation.


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## newtothe dark (Aug 16, 2007)

I always love this discussion. There are many schools of thought on this just like the ranking in the Japanese arts.
The way it was explained to me is until the arts were exposed to outsiders there was little to no rank needed as the schools were controlled by a family. The titles mostly used today are ways of roughly translating a family tree. 
IE: Sifu = Father Sigung = Grand Father Si Dai Gung Great grand Father.
The way my teahers told me was as is the Japanese arts Sensi/Sifu is the name of a school teacher (@ 1-5 dan) Sigung was a teacher of teachers (5-8) and Si Dai Gung is the current head of system. 
Now the other title used was Sijo = Head of Family or Founder the was to be for someone that "Created" a new system. Also keep in mind that when asked almost all of my Teachers said that in China none of these were really used in the old days but Sifu and that was an exceptable title if said with respect.
 This is just the way I was taught by no means is there a stone tablet saying this is law.


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## tahuti (Aug 16, 2007)

Well there is at least one sport where title Grandmaster is used, chess. Even they have experienced inflation, and calling either to abolish title or only to be used for contenders for World Champion.   
Elo ranking system provides: 

Senior master 2400+
Master 2200+
Expert 2000+
Class A,B,C,D,E
Elo system is actually implemented bit differently depending on organization. FIDE 

Candidate Master 2200+
International Master or Grandmaster 2400+
I would say that Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster makes sense, but only if you keep number of Grandmasters low. If books that I have read were correct, Master was usually with 10-20 years of expertise, so grandmaster would be honor title probably with 40+ years.


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## funnytiger (Aug 21, 2007)

I think what is happening here is we are getting caught up in the translations of the words as well as our own interpretations of the words. 

"Sifu" means teacher.
"Si Gung" refers to your teachers teacher (also referred to as "master" in english.)
"Dai Si Gung" is our teachers teacher (also referred to as "grandmaster" in english.)

Traditionally there was no belt system used in Chinese martial arts, so our western interpretations of these words has lost a lot of meaning. But in the end, they are terms of respect.

These are the things I have learned in my years of training in TCMA. Everyone may learn a little differently.
- ft


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## Taijiguy (Aug 22, 2007)

> It would be really nice if worked this well, but it doesn't. For instance, I am a teacher and thus can be called Sifu (though I don't normally use it), but my level of rank is called Master. My teacher is also both Sifu and Master, but his teacher we call "Lao Shi" (literally "old snake") which is a term of respect for a teacher. His rank, however, is Grandmaster. So he is Chan Lao Shi and he is a Sifu and Grandmaster.


Laoshi doesn't mean old snake.  Lao means old but I think you have shi (an expert in something) confused with she (snake).  &#32769;&#24072;= laoshi (teacher)  &#24072;= shi (expert at something) &#34503; = she (snake/serpent).  The pronunciation is a bit different, though very close, esp. to non-Chinese speakers.  

Traditional Chinese titles for martial arts are a bit flexible in that they're relationship based.  So, you wouldn't necessarily call my sifu, sifu.  Laoshi is always a safe and respectable title though for a teacher.  But be careful how you pronounce it!  My first month or so of taiji practice I called my teacher laoshu (rat) until he got a translator in to correct us   Master and grandmaster are western titles and aren't really very good translations imo, in that the meaning is a bit different.  Sounds more egotistical than the Chinese words they're trying to be equivalent to.  There's also slightly different ways of saying "shifu/sifu".   My Chinese teacher was explaining this to me on Monday... one would be something like an expert/master worker, while another (using a different tone of "fu") has the family connotations which is what martial artists use.  The first one is often used as a polite term for people who are professionals in something or have specialized knowledge in something.  The second I believe is more for a master/disciple relationship like you'd often find in traditional Chinese martial arts.  I just learned this two days ago, so my info might not be 100% accurate (I'm still very much a novice when it comes to Chinese language).


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## funnytiger (Aug 22, 2007)

Taijiguy said:


> Traditional Chinese titles for martial arts are a bit flexible in that they're relationship based.  So, you wouldn't necessarily call my sifu, sifu.  Laoshi is always a safe and respectable title though for a teacher.  But be careful how you pronounce it!  My first month or so of taiji practice I called my teacher laoshu (rat) until he got a translator in to correct us   Master and grandmaster are western titles and aren't really very good translations imo, in that the meaning is a bit different.  Sounds more egotistical than the Chinese words they're trying to be equivalent to.



A very good and clear way of explaining what I apparently failed at explaining. 



> There's also slightly different ways of saying "shifu/sifu". My Chinese teacher was explaining this to me on Monday... one would be something like an expert/master worker, while another (using a different tone of "fu") has the family connotations which is what martial artists use. The first one is often used as a polite term for people who are professionals in something or have specialized knowledge in something. The second I believe is more for a master/disciple relationship like you'd often find in traditional Chinese martial arts. I just learned this two days ago, so my info might not be 100% accurate (I'm still very much a novice when it comes to Chinese language).



However, "shifu" and "sifu" are the same terms with the same meaning just in different dialects. I'm not sure if its as easy as saying that one is a Mandarin dialect and the other is a Cantonese dialect. Most often Northern arts will often use the term "shifu" while southern schools use "sifu". 

-ft


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 22, 2007)

Taijiguy said:


> Laoshi doesn't mean old snake. Lao means old but I think you have *shi *(an expert in something) confused with *she *(snake). &#32769;&#24072;= laoshi (teacher) &#24072;= shi (expert at something) &#34503; = she (snake/serpent). The pronunciation is a bit different, though very close, esp. to non-Chinese speakers.


 
Thanks for this correction.  I learned all these terms using the Wade-Giles translation system and struggle at times to change them to Pinyin.


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## newtothe dark (Aug 22, 2007)

I am new to these forums and have to say I am very impressed. Usually this topic turns people into ranting , challenging machines. This is a great topic because it not only brings up the way each of us was taught but in some ways the way we will teach it to the next generation GRATZ all on being more controlled than alot of other forums.!!!!!!!


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## funnytiger (Aug 23, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> I am new to these forums and have to say I am very impressed. Usually this topic turns people into ranting , challenging machines. This is a great topic because it not only brings up the way each of us was taught but in some ways the way we will teach it to the next generation GRATZ all on being more controlled than alot of other forums.!!!!!!!



What's THAT supposed to mean?? You wanna fight??

j/k


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## newtothe dark (Aug 23, 2007)

Dont we all thats why we study martial arts hehe Na just very impressed and glad to be a part of some great topic discusions. 

BTW I am the Master (joking) of RunFu lol


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## funnytiger (Aug 23, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> Dont we all thats why we study martial arts hehe Na just very impressed and glad to be a part of some great topic discusions.
> 
> BTW I am the Master (joking) of RunFu lol



Ah, yes. A very ancient and tested art indeed. I have been known to practice it on occasion.


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## Danny T (Aug 23, 2007)

NanFeiShen said:


> Titles seem so important in the eyes of many western students, Sifu, Master , Grand Master, and looking around the web at variuos pages and links, one sees a few teachers with the titles Master or Grand Master, now my question is:
> Taking knowledge, both theoretical and practical into account, plus experience and years spent, what defines a Master and a Grand Master?
> 
> IMHO, a Sifu is a teacher of students, a Master is a teacher of Sifu's (an individual who has a school that runs subschools each being run by a Sifu), and a Grand Master is an individual who has students who are Masters, each running their own schools with sub-schools/branches which are being run by Sifu's.
> ...


 
Per my Wing Chun Instructor, Sifu Francis Fong, who moved to America in 1974; you know, its kinda funny, I never ever heard the term Master or Grand Master until I moved to the United States. In Hong Kong I trained in Judo, Tae Kwan Do, and then Wing Chun and I never heard anyone called Master. My teacher we called Sifu which means father teacher not master. We were as a family helping each other grow and we never used any terms which meant master.

Danny T


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## Dronak (Sep 7, 2007)

When I was taking classes, our teacher was "master" and his teacher was "grandmaster".  It was being used in a generational sense, like parent, grandparent, great-grandparent, etc.


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## funnytiger (Sep 8, 2007)

Dronak said:


> When I was taking classes, our teacher was "master" and his teacher was "grandmaster".  It was being used in a generational sense, like parent, grandparent, great-grandparent, etc.



Similar to our school as well. Sifu was "father", Si Gung was "grandfather" and Dai Si Gung was much like "great grandfather".

- ft


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## profesormental (Sep 8, 2007)

Greetings.

My students call me professor... mostly "profe". It was thrown on me since I also teach at the university (physics and math).

Also, the title of Si Fu (Teacher Father) should be a big responsibility... since it should mean the acceptance of a martial family structure... not just 
students... or not.

If you're the teacher... it's Lao Shi, and several other variants. Also note that the Chinese call Shi Fu in the context of, as mentioned, Master of a craft or qualified worker.


In the end, if you notice that in japanese and chinese people are addressed by their relationship to each other (just as we call our aunt "aunt" and our brother "brother") and the name of the person... yet even more specific and for out of family relationships...

Quan Fa trainings were supposed to be passed to family members... so it makes sense to group each other as family members... yet note that your place in a family is set... you won't change titles becuase you know more or anything else...

So I find interesting that people use places in a family as "ranking" titles.

Might as well be called "sargent" or captain. 

Juan M. Mercado


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## funnytiger (Sep 8, 2007)

Hi Juan, I think you misunderstand how and why these "titles" are used as it is being explained. Sifu (or Shifu, same word/meaning, different dialect) does indeed translate to "teacher/father" where we continue to use the family structure Si Gung, my teachers teacher "grandfather" and Dai Si Gung, my "grandfathers" teacher or great grandfather ("dai" translates to big). The correlation for my school is simply that a master is used as an english standby for si gung and grandmaster for dai si gung. We do not use the titles when in their presence, we use their given titles si gung, and dai si gung.

You are absolutely right, the titles you are given in a family structured TMA should not change. I have a si jei who is damn near 12 years younger than me, but she's been there longer so I really can't say a whole lot, lol. No matter how much I excel, she will always be my si jei.



profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> My students call me professor... mostly "profe". It was thrown on me since I also teach at the university (physics and math).
> 
> ...


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## Taijiguy (Sep 8, 2007)

> Hi Juan, I think you misunderstand how and why these "titles" are used as it is being explained. Sifu (or Shifu, same word/meaning, different dialect) does indeed translate to "teacher/father"


There _are _two different "shifu", one of which has family connotations and the other is the master craftsman.  Different characters in Chinese and different tone for the "fu", I think.  I'll have to ask my Chinese teacher for more details when classes start up again, as I'm still pretty new to the language.


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## funnytiger (Sep 8, 2007)

Taijiguy said:


> There _are _two different "shifu", one of which has family connotations and the other is the master craftsman.  Different characters in Chinese and different tone for the "fu", I think.  I'll have to ask my Chinese teacher for more details when classes start up again, as I'm still pretty new to the language.



There have been several debates on the word Sifu (or Shifu) and its meaning and I have heard from several people that there are two characters with the same meaning. Some say that "father" is a completely seperate character and therefore should not be attributed to how some use it in the TCMAs. 

However, the debate is whether they are two different words with two different meanings. In my experience, those who study a nothern TCMA call their teacher Shifu and southern TCMA use the term Sifu. 

One poster commented on the term "lao shi" (note the "sh" sound). In Cantonese it is pronounced "Lao Si" (no "sh" sound). I have yet to hear someone who studies a southern based CMA pronounce either terms with the "sh" sound. 

Not that my experience is the end all be all of verification... lol. I found several websites that support it. 

http://www.shaolin-wahnam-center.org/sifu/respect.htm
http://wongkk.com/answers/ans03b/dec03-2.html (answer 4)
http://plumblossom.net/Articles/Inside_Kung-Fu/July2005/index.html
(A link to text from an article that was in Inside Kung Fu magazine about titles in MA.)

- ft


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 4, 2007)

Old post I know, and much of this has already been said

Sifu/Shifu means Teacher
To my sifu (form China) the term sifu only applies to martial arts teachers and master chefs. But my sifu is 70.

To my wife (form China) the term sifu applies to a martial arts teacher a master chef or just about anyone else that teaches you a skillm my wife taught acupuncture in China so she is a sifu to her students. My wie was born into the Cultural Revolution so she is younger than my sifu.

Laoshi is a school teacher

And the term Grand Master as far as both my wife and sifu are concerned is not used in China.

Actually as far as my wife is concerned the term Grand Master is a rather sarcastic title Chinese give other Chinese (Mainly martial arts) when someone claims mastery when in fact they are a flower fist.

The title Grand Master is a product of the West as far as CMA is concerned


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## profesormental (Dec 4, 2007)

Agreed.

That is my understanding as well.

On an interesting note, the Grand Master thing is used in esoteric teachings societies. The heads of local chapters are Masters, the heads of huge regions are Grand Masters, and the head of the world organization is like the Grand Poobah or whatever title.

In the end, it is an organizational title that should denote your responsabilities to the membership of the organization, not how others should treat you.

Since martial arts were considered "esoteric" and their teaching styles similar in many respects, it is no wonder that the titles taken are the same as in western esoteric schools, instead of western educational systems (like coach, teacher, principal, headmaster, dean, chairman, etc.)

Guess that a job title is not as glamorous as a pseudo religious title.

Interesting discussion.

Juan M. Mercado


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 5, 2007)

profesormental said:


> Agreed.
> 
> That is my understanding as well.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting, thanks

Also I just had a discussion with my Sifu and with my wife about the title of grand master. Actually one of my Sifus newer students wanted to start calling him Grand Master to which he said no

Grandmaster is used in China in 2 ways.

A great martial arts teacher dies and people then refer to him as Grandmaster (da shi)

A person teaching martial arts or Qigong who is a Huaquan (flower fist) or a fake and they start calling him da shi (aka Grand Master - sarcastic)

So if you call Yang Chengfu da shi (Yang da shi) that is a good thing and the Yang family thinks it is great but if you call Chen Zhenglei da shi (Chen Da Shi) you better have your running shoes on.


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## Nebuchadnezzar (Dec 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Old post I know, and much of this has already been said
> 
> Sifu/Shifu means Teacher
> To my sifu (form China) the term sifu only applies to martial arts teachers and master chefs. But my sifu is 70.
> ...


 
Thanks for the clarification!


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## funnytiger (Dec 5, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting, thanks
> 
> Also I just had a discussion with my Sifu and with my wife about the title of grand master. Actually one of my Sifus newer students wanted to start calling him Grand Master to which he said no
> 
> ...



We would use the term "grand master" to illustrate a hierarchy so it is more easily understood by the western mind. My teacher is Sifu; his teacher is Si Gung, which I would refer to as "master" if I had to use an equivalent English term; and my Sifu's teacher's teacher is Dai Si Gung, which I assume is much longer, Cantonese term for "da shi". 

It is not a "title" per say, but again, just a way for some to create a bridge between the English speaking and the traditional Chinese terminology. 

He would not refer to him as Grandmaster, nor would we refer to him as such in verbal conversation about him. We would say Dai Si Gung.

I say that to say I agree there is a stress put on titles, and some take advantage of that. Some people like to go around calling themselves "sifu" as well as "master" and "grand master". Some believe that because they have these titles they are entitled to a lot of things.

But those who have earned those titles deserve the respect that comes along with it.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 5, 2007)

funnytiger said:


> We would use the term "grand master" to illustrate a hierarchy so it is more easily understood by the western mind. My teacher is Sifu; his teacher is Si Gung, which I would refer to as "master" if I had to use an equivalent English term; and my Sifu's teacher's teacher is Dai Si Gung, which I assume is much longer, Cantonese term for "da shi".
> 
> It is not a "title" per say, but again, just a way for some to create a bridge between the English speaking and the traditional Chinese terminology.
> 
> ...


 
Understood but I Dai Si Gung meaning is Great Grand father teacher and Si Gung is Grand Father Teacher

I do not know the equivalent in Cantonese to Da Shi which does mean Grand Master. There use to be a couple of Cantonese Speakers on MT maybe they can answer that, if not I can ask my sifu the next time I see him he speaks Cantonese and Mandarin. My wife does not speak Cantonese so I can't ask her.

And in China, especially in the North you do not want to be called Da Shi if you are alive.


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## funnytiger (Dec 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Understood but I Dai Si Gung meaning is Great Grand father teacher and Si Gung is Grand Father Teacher



Which is essentially what I posted. Your teacher's teacher (si gung) and your si gung's teacher (dai si gung). I hesitate to put the term "father" in there since there seems to be some debate of the translation of the characters between "father" and "sifu". I believe "sifu" to be a father-figure in the traditional schools, but I'm not sure if there is a direct correlation.

I've heard both sides from people who both speak and read Cantonese. 

I neither speak or read Cantonese (except for the kung fu terminology taught to us by my Sifu) so I can't speak much on that. 




> I do not know the equivalent in Cantonese to Da Shi which does mean Grand Master. There use to be a couple of Cantonese Speakers on MT maybe they can answer that, if not I can ask my sifu the next time I see him he speaks Cantonese and Mandarin. My wife does not speak Cantonese so I can't ask her.





> And in China, especially in the North you do not want to be called Da Shi if you are alive.



My Sifu speaks Cantonese as well. I will drop him a line today about the term "da shi". I've never heard him use it, so if it does indeed mean "grandmaster" then you're probably spot on about the use of it.

- ft


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 6, 2007)

funnytiger said:


> My Sifu speaks Cantonese as well. I will drop him a line today about the term "da shi". I've never heard him use it, so if it does indeed mean "grandmaster" then you're probably spot on about the use of it.
> 
> - ft


 
Da Shi is mandarin, I do not know the Cantonese, but I too will check with my sifu he speaks both


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## funnytiger (Dec 6, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Da Shi is mandarin, I do not know the Cantonese, but I too will check with my sifu he speaks both



The "shi" in da shi kind of makes it obviously mandarin. My Sifu is well versed in Cantonese and knows quite a bit of Mandarin kung fu terminology as well.


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## funnytiger (Dec 6, 2007)

I wrote my Sifu and haven't gotten an answer back, but I did a little search on the Internet for "Da Shi" and possibly its Cantonese counterpart "Dai Si". It didn't seem to really return any search results for any TCMA's. 

I can not draw any real conclusions from this, but I will guess that perhaps it is not a term used in TCMA because of the implications that come along with it as Xue Sheng mentioned as well as it doesn't seem to fit in with the family structured MA's.

Still waiting to hear back from Sifu....

- ft


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## punisher73 (Dec 6, 2007)

> So... I gather you had experience with a 'Sifu Bates' who made you go blind (possibly by gauging your eyes)?


 
I heard that he is famous for his hairy palm technique, which is usually only practiced  at night while no one else is there to witness it.

Professormental's post was very interesting as it kind of shed some light on if the title's of master/grandmaster are western ideas how did we come up with them and incorporate them into the martial arts.


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## oxy (Dec 7, 2007)

punisher73 said:


> I heard that he is famous for his hairy palm technique, which is usually only practiced  at night while no one else is there to witness it.



The skill is so repulsive that he's been forbidden from using it on others.


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## JadeDragon3 (Jan 2, 2008)

My understanding was that Grandmaster was the person who knew all thier was to Know about thier style and taught it. Sifu was a teacher who taught the style the grandmaster knew. Now the term Great grandmaster is a term for the old granmaster that no longer teaches and has passed the title of GM on to someone else.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 2, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> My understanding was that Grandmaster was the person who knew all thier was to Know about thier style and taught it. Sifu was a teacher who taught the style the grandmaster knew. Now the term Great grandmaster is a term for the old granmaster that no longer teaches and has passed the title of GM on to someone else.


 
If you call someone, that is still alive, in China a grandmaster there are a few possibilities

1) You think he/she is a fraud
2) You are looking for a fight
3) You are looking to be completely ignored.
4) You don't know any better becase you are a westerner

Grand master is a title that is made up for the west by the west as far as CMA is concerned. The only way someone is called a grand master in china by other Chinese martial artist is if he/she is dead. Then it is a term of respect. 

I recently saw a webpage for a CMA teacher in Beijing, there were 2 versions; English were the title of Grandmaster was and Chinese where the title of Grandmaster wasn't.

The page was designed for the audience that would read it. In China you do not call a Sifu a Grandmaster if you are Chinese or a serious Westerner training with him/her. They are usually just Sifu (Shifu)


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