# Pin or Check?



## MJS (Feb 1, 2006)

When doing the technique Delayed Sword (Right hand lapel grab) what is your preference, pinning the hand or using a positional check?  There have been discussions about the pros and cons of each, as well as also performing this technique off of a right punch.

So, what is your method and why?

Mike


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## KenpoTess (Feb 1, 2006)

I use a precautionary positional check with the left hand held at solar plex level.. 
This supports my second line of defense.


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## Seabrook (Feb 1, 2006)

Definitely a pin since the pin and step back controls the attacker's height, width, and depth.  
Also, if you dont pin the hand that grabs, if the opponent lets go, it will cancel most of your action.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## DavidCC (Feb 1, 2006)

In Shaolin Kemop, the general rule is, if somebody grabs hold of you, you grab that hand to keep them there.  Well, we do have some grab releases but pinning is the usual course.

I look at somebody grabbing me as giving me a gift... :EG:


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 1, 2006)

Pin. Positioned checks are, presumably, placed at a given location in anticipation of an intentional or unintentional response on the part of your opponent (i.e., kick him in da nutz, and IF his hands fly forward as his body bends, you have smoe interfereence between his hands and your head). Delayed sword is a specific response to a specific attack. OUR intent -- as Jamie said, to control the HWD of the opponent -- should take precedence over the woulda-coulda-shoulda that might happen from the opponents body.

Positioned check = planned failure (something outside of our control may happen; be prepared).

Pin = planned success (I will do such a bang up job managing my opponents options, that there will be no events outside my control). 

Regards,

Dave


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## JamesB (Feb 1, 2006)

An manipulation (grab+pin) of the wrist causing a misalignment in the attacker's arm, reducing their ability to pull back.


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## Bode (Feb 1, 2006)

JamesB said:
			
		

> An manipulation (grab+pin) of the wrist causing a misalignment in the attacker's arm, reducing their ability to pull back.


I believe you meant to say "A  manipulation (grab+pin) of the HAND causes a misalignment in the attackers arm" Pinning his wrist will actually strengthen his ability to pull. Really, try it...

I am all for pinning the hand though. As KB said, our goal is to check HWD.


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## michaeledward (Feb 1, 2006)

Left hand check in the middle zone. 

The left foot step back and inward block should clear the opponents right hand, allowing me to create distance. At the yellow belt level, this is appropriate.

If I pin the opponents right hand, isn't that inward block to the arm going to create an orbit with his left that I am trying to avoid? 

Isn't the pin going to bring the opponent closer to me?


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## JamesB (Feb 1, 2006)

Bode said:
			
		

> I believe you meant to say "A manipulation (grab+pin) of the HAND causes a misalignment in the attackers arm" Pinning his wrist will actually strengthen his ability to pull. Really, try it...
> 
> I am all for pinning the hand though. As KB said, our goal is to check HWD.


 
oops my bad, thanks for the clarification


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 1, 2006)

Pin if its a grab. check if its a push or attempted grab. Checking as a plan for faliure is a funny one. I'll have to tell the boys where I train that checking is planning to fail. That kills me!:uhyeah: 
Sean


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## Doc (Feb 1, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> When doing the technique Delayed Sword (Right hand lapel grab) what is your preference, pinning the hand or using a positional check?  There have been discussions about the pros and cons of each, as well as also performing this technique off of a right punch.
> 
> So, what is your method and why?
> 
> Mike


In the real world, there is no such thing as a "positional check." That was an idea created for motion-kenpo to compensate for missing information not contained with the framework.


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## Doc (Feb 1, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Pin. Positioned checks are, presumably, placed at a given location in anticipation of an intentional or unintentional response on the part of your opponent (i.e., kick him in da nutz, and IF his hands fly forward as his body bends, you have smoe interfereence between his hands and your head). Delayed sword is a specific response to a specific attack. OUR intent -- as Jamie said, to control the HWD of the opponent -- should take precedence over the woulda-coulda-shoulda that might happen from the opponents body.
> 
> Positioned check = planned failure (something outside of our control may happen; be prepared).
> 
> ...


Well what do you know, he found a computer.  See you Sunday.


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## Doc (Feb 1, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Pin if its a grab. check if its a push or attempted grab. Checking as a plan for faliure is a funny one. I'll have to tell the boys where I train that checking is planning to fail. That kills me!:uhyeah:
> Sean


Then you are dead sir.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 1, 2006)

I hate it when that happens.


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## Doc (Feb 1, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> I hate it when that happens.


You too?


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> In the real world, there is no such thing as a "positional check." That was an idea created for motion-kenpo to compensate for missing information not contained with the framework.


 
Doc,

Perhaps you could explain how you do this technique.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts seeing that you focus alot on structural alignment, etc. 

For me, I've done this technique with both the pin and without the pin, and have had good results.  Perhaps 'positional' was not the proper word to use, but when I'm doing it without the pin, I have the other hand up, in the event something else is thrown, such as a left punch.

Mike


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## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

This technique is first introduced to our white belts as a step through right punch, though obviously we may elect to illustrate the principles contained within the technique against a grab as well.  For myself, if trapping the offending arm is my intention I may be inclined to use an umbilical check, of course depending on what needs to be done.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Doc (Feb 2, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Doc,
> 
> Perhaps you could explain how you do this technique.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts seeing that you focus alot on structural alignment, etc.
> 
> ...


Well sir, I would love to but there is a problem. This technique is a "hands on" manipulation technique. Writing the physical postures and mechanisms is very difficult, and reading and understanding it is even more difficult. In our Courebook Material specific language is used along with references to mechanisms taught in class. This is also why information intensive material cannot be conveyed through video in distance learning situations.

Simply: First the assault is a flank attack where your right wrist is seized by the attackers right hand forcibly. Your response would be to utilize specific mechanisms of BAM's*, PAM's*, and Indexes, to make yourself immoveable whether pushed or pulled while you quickly identify and access the level of danger.

Than you would pin (Negative BAM) the hand while changing the shape of the metacarpals in his hand, and destroy his bodily structure. Moving to an Index Postion with the hand pinned, thumb leveraged, transition to a 'vertical outward block position' misaligning his arm completly rotating the radial bone. At this point he is at your mercy, neither able to push, or even pull to get away, and is completely vulnerable to a wrist lock takedown if you desire.

All of the above is part of the Default Technique portion known as 'SIA*.' From here we can begin Initial Retaliation. Our Default attacks and traumatizes the set up arm, and misaligns both shoulders. This is followed by a takedown into a Three Point Stance while the fourth point is controlled for a finishing kick.

This is the actual technique that the motion technique is derived from. But as you can read, there are many mechanisms missing from manuals that are only suggested by the material, but never explored or taught. At a higher level the technique is essentially the same but the Indexes are much smaller, and the effects are greatly magnified, along with multiple options.

Last: For those that don't believe there is a pin, they should examine motions Short Form 3 that contains a variation of this technique. Here's a clue. 'No pin, no technique.' 

*SIA - Survive The Initial Assault
*BAM - Body ALignment Mechanism
*PAM - Platorm ALigning Mechanism
*Index - Specific physical postures the body must transition through to maximize structure strength, and to ultimately obtain internal energy. Done long enough, the external virtually disappears and the movements are truly 'internalized.'


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## Doc (Feb 2, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> This technique is first introduced to our white belts as a step through right punch,
> 
> I guess it just goes to show you how the diversity of the understanding of the base commercial material is truly all over the place. That's why I always say to people, 'Don't make general assumptions about anyone's kenpo but your own.'


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## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

Umbilical check...does anyone else use this term?  If so, what does it mean to you?  I've not heard it outside my own group, so I'm curious as to its universality within the kenpo system as its understood by others.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Feb 2, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Pin if its a grab. check if its a push or attempted grab. Checking as a plan for faliure is a funny one. I'll have to tell the boys where I train that checking is planning to fail. That kills me!:uhyeah:
> Sean


 
A positioned check makes good sense in the same sense that keeping your hands up in a fight does...particularly at the first 3 phases of sublevels of combat. A positioned check is positioned gainst possible what-if's. (emphasize the "possible"). Once contact is made, and you move into control manipulation...which you ostensibly do with a pinning check...there should be no further what-if's. If you mnage your contact manipulation correctly, the other guy only gets to do what you let him. 

If you have checked HWD and applied even minimal pressure into the now closed kinematic chain of your opponents attacking extremity, he will not be able to hit you with his contra-lateral hand. His weight will be transferred towards the ground and his lead foot, negating his use of his lead leg as an attacking weapon. His rear leg will also be out of operation, and unable to travel around his centerline to be used with any effectiveness...atempting to do so will either land him on his own butt, or place more pressure into the wrist joints, increasing his pain factor. Ultimately, it's not even an option...his body will be too tangled and stacked on top of it's own joints to pull off any effective forward or circumferential momentum for an attack.

IF you have executed the first part of this technique correctly, THEN follow-up attack on his part is essentially not possible. So...what would your positioned check be checking against? The only answer would be...things not already nailed down, because you didn't do it right. Planned failure.

Any stance with your hands up is basically a positioned check. Outside the contact manipulation range, I still think keeping your hands up to protect your favorite places is a good idea.  I just don't think in control manipulation. Your checks are built into the anatomy of the controls. 

Switch systems for a minute to get away from kenpo-think. If you are mounted on a guy, grounding and pounding, pinning him with one hand and dropping blows straight down with the other...with which hand do you positionally check?You don't need to. You can reach his noggin' with blows, but he can't reach yours. He can reach your waist with blows, but none with any degree of backup mass to cause damage. You can then apply learning theory...every time he taps you on the ribs, you drop an inward elbow to the side of his head. His options are checked by the nature of the positions in contact. His side to side mobility is checked by your knee and legwork (if you're any good); his ability to pull you in to an attack...checked by the cooperation you get from the interplay between gravity and natural force that allows you to sit bolt upright or do a push up and pull back away from him. You do not need to poition a check with your left hand at your right shoulder when throwing a right downward punch on a mounted opponent; he ain't gonna hitcha anywhere near there (I mention this because I've seen video of a kenpo pseudo-senior doing this very same thing). That left can be used to entangle the guy, or yank his hair, or base out for improved stability, or whatever, and you can still pummel him at will due to the positional restraints of the mount.

As a fighting distance/range/sublevel/whatever, being mounted on a guy (and the mean stuff you can do to him from there) falls grossly within the control manipulation category. And negates the need for positioned checks. Unless you just want to keep your hands busy and look good. (cuz, dang, we kenpo people do look good with our hands all flagged like that).

So as you and the boyz are yukking it up, remember to include in that discussion the role level of contact plays in the planned failure/planned success model.

Regards,

Dave


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## Doc (Feb 2, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> A positioned check makes good sense in the same sense that keeping your hands up in a fight does...particularly at the first 3 phases of sublevels of combat. A positioned check is positioned gainst possible what-if's. (emphasize the "possible"). Once contact is made, and you move into control manipulation...which you ostensibly do with a pinning check...there should be no further what-if's. If you mnage your contact manipulation correctly, the other guy only gets to do what you let him.
> 
> If you have checked HWD and applied even minimal pressure into the now closed kinematic chain of your opponents attacking extremity, he will not be able to hit you with his contra-lateral hand. His weight will be transferred towards the ground and his lead foot, negating his use of his lead leg as an attacking weapon. His rear leg will also be out of operation, and unable to travel around his centerline to be used with any effectiveness...atempting to do so will either land him on his own butt, or place more pressure into the wrist joints, increasing his pain factor. Ultimately, it's not even an option...his body will be too tangled and stacked on top of it's own joints to pull off any effective forward or circumferential momentum for an attack.
> 
> ...


Well when you look at it, you either explain what that other hand should be doing or you create a "positional check," than you don't have to. Mr. Parker never 'positonal checked.' But you are right sir. What a positional check really is - is a simple 'on guard' in anticipation of an attempted assault. Once the assault is initiated, there should be no such thing and doesn't exist in reality.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 2, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Umbilical check...does anyone else use this term? If so, what does it mean to you? I've not heard it outside my own group, so I'm curious as to its universality within the kenpo system as its understood by others.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


If you mean driving weapons to the core then yes.
Sean


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## bujuts (Feb 2, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> If you mean driving weapons to the core then yes.
> Sean



By umbilical check I'm referring to a pinning of the attacker's arm to you using  what may look to an outsider as the classical "on guard" check that some kenpoists use.  Simply stated, if off a grab in Delayed Sword I decide to pin the right wrist to my chest, I do so not with my palm facing into me, but will orient my forearm such that I am engaging my latissimus to anchor my arm down, with my elbow close to my body.  This alignment places the palm roughly orthoganol to your torso, and your contact is made roughly the lower extremity of the radius at your wrist (I'm not great at describing precise anatomical positions, but that might get the idea across).

Its been my observation that its a stronger pin than actually grabbing his wrist / hand with your own.  Anyway, that's what I've learned as an "umbilical check", and it comes in handy all sorts of places.

Cheers,

Steven Brown
UKF


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> By umbilical check I'm referring to a pinning of the attacker's arm to you using what may look to an outsider as the classical "on guard" check that some kenpoists use. Simply stated, if off a grab in Delayed Sword I decide to pin the right wrist to my chest, I do so not with my palm facing into me, but will orient my forearm such that I am engaging my latissimus to anchor my arm down, with my elbow close to my body. This alignment places the palm roughly orthoganol to your torso, and your contact is made roughly the lower extremity of the radius at your wrist (I'm not great at describing precise anatomical positions, but that might get the idea across).
> 
> Its been my observation that its a stronger pin than actually grabbing his wrist / hand with your own. Anyway, that's what I've learned as an "umbilical check", and it comes in handy all sorts of places.
> 
> ...


Kind of like the first move of sticky hands set.
Sean


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## bujuts (Feb 3, 2006)

Touch Of Death said:
			
		

> Kind of like the first move of sticky hands set.
> Sean



Do you mean the first leaf, with the inward block / bracing angle check and the hammer fist to the clavicle?  I guess I'm not seeing the link on that one to the umbilical check, but then again my description of the u.c. may come across differently than I intended.  No matter,  I'll have to study them both more - I think you've found something I haven't.  Thanks for the thoughts.  

Cheers,

Steve Brown
UKF


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Do you mean the first leaf, with the inward block / bracing angle check and the hammer fist to the clavicle? I guess I'm not seeing the link on that one to the umbilical check, but then again my description of the u.c. may come across differently than I intended. No matter, I'll have to study them both more - I think you've found something I haven't. Thanks for the thoughts.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


Actualy I see just about every tech in the system within that set. Although the set does strike the clavical, if you simply change the angle of incidence the strike becomes the inside block and the left could do the possible umbilical check of the Delayed Sword and of course the act of snaking around for the outward block cross check could just as well be the outward swordhand of Delayed Sword. Its all good.
Sean


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Its been my observation that its a stronger pin than actually grabbing his wrist / hand with your own.  Anyway, that's what I've learned as an "umbilical check", and it comes in handy all sorts of places.


Actually it is quite strong as a 'pin,' however that limb position creates boyancy, prevents settling, and makes you vulnerable should be struck while in that position. It is known as the "Boyant Arm Position" translated from the old Madarin.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 3, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> A positioned check makes good sense in the same sense that keeping your hands up in a fight does...particularly at the first 3 phases of sublevels of combat. A positioned check is positioned gainst possible what-if's. (emphasize the "possible"). Once contact is made, and you move into control manipulation...which you ostensibly do with a pinning check...there should be no further what-if's. If you mnage your contact manipulation correctly, the other guy only gets to do what you let him.
> 
> If you have checked HWD and applied even minimal pressure into the now closed kinematic chain of your opponents attacking extremity, he will not be able to hit you with his contra-lateral hand. His weight will be transferred towards the ground and his lead foot, negating his use of his lead leg as an attacking weapon. His rear leg will also be out of operation, and unable to travel around his centerline to be used with any effectiveness...atempting to do so will either land him on his own butt, or place more pressure into the wrist joints, increasing his pain factor. Ultimately, it's not even an option...his body will be too tangled and stacked on top of it's own joints to pull off any effective forward or circumferential momentum for an attack.
> 
> ...


 
As much as this discussion is coming up about the Pin or No Pin in Delayed Sword, everyone is still saying and doing the same thing from what I can read.

As for your post, you're talking about the Even-If phase.   The pin in Delayed Sword prevents the What-If from happening by sheer dimensional cancellation, this way, there is but one conclusion, Ideal Phase.

So many people use the What-If as a crutch for their lack of skill or knowledge, but it's an open ended concept, and as you said, planning for failure.     Even-If closes that, as it won't matter what happens, the conclusion will be what you desired in the first place.    The ideal, what-if, and forumulation phase is a great tool for beginners, but as you advance in the art and engrain the material, it should become ideal, Even-If, ideal, because with proper training, you won't formulate outside the system or techs. principles.    

Procedural Memory, sensitivity drills, and Pavlovic reflex kick in to provide you with the quickest response to a threat, but simple positional checks don't give you that option.   To me, there's Active checks and Passive checks.   Passive checks are relegated to the beginning and end of techs., when you're going to start or close/end the ordeal while Active checks are implemented throughout the tech.     I want to be in constant contact with my opponent until I'm done, so not only can I see what he's doing, I can FEEL what he's doing, hence the reason for Active checking.     The pin in Delayed Sword is an Active check.

DarK LorD


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## MJS (Feb 3, 2006)

Another way we could look at his is: What is the goal that we want to acheive?  Lone Kimono involves pinning the hand, so we can acheive that arm break.  Crossing Talon involves a counter grab, so that we can counter strike.  Now against the wrist grab, I can move my arm counter clock wise, laying the back of my hand over theirs, hit the arm off with my left and counter strike with my right.  Acheived goals with both methods.  Now, looking at DS, I can step back w/o the pin, causing a disruption in his balance and then do the block and follow up moves.


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## jonah2 (Feb 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> ..... Now, looking at DS, I can step back w/o the pin, causing a disruption in his balance and then do the block and follow up moves.


Not if he lets go
if he grabs me, he affords some advantage
If I counter grab (PIN) then I, at the very least, bring it back to 50/50


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## Seabrook (Feb 3, 2006)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Delayed sword is a specific response to a specific attack. OUR intent -- as Jamie said, to control the HWD of the opponent -- should take precedence over the woulda-coulda-shoulda that might happen from the opponents body.
> 
> Dave


 
Well put, Dave.


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## Seabrook (Feb 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> In the real world, there is no such thing as a "positional check."


 
Ouch! 

But I agree wholeheartedly.


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## Seabrook (Feb 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> when I'm doing it without the pin, I have the other hand up, in the event something else is thrown, such as a left punch.
> 
> Mike


 
But all you would need to do is graft into Sword of Destruction should the opponent throw the left hand, Mike.


Jamie Seabrook


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## Seabrook (Feb 3, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> The ideal, what-if, and forumulation phase is a great tool for beginners, but as you advance in the art and engrain the material, it should become ideal, Even-If, ideal, because with proper training, you won't formulate outside the system or techs. principles.
> 
> DarK LorD


 
Clyde,

You told me this over and over a couple of years ago, and I am now in complete agreement. 

Well put.

Jamie Seabrook


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## MJS (Feb 3, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> Not if he lets go
> if he grabs me, he affords some advantage
> If I counter grab (PIN) then I, at the very least, bring it back to 50/50


 
Thats correct, they just may let go.  Again, it goes back to what the goal is.  Do we want to pin, keeping them momentarily in place, so we can counter strike?  Do we want to get the hand off?  If they let go, thats fine.  I've eliminated the current problem, that being the lapel grab.


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## MJS (Feb 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> This technique is first introduced to our white belts as a step through right punch, though obviously we may elect to illustrate the principles contained within the technique against a grab as well. For myself, if trapping the offending arm is my intention I may be inclined to use an umbilical check, of course depending on what needs to be done.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> ...


 
I've learned this as a punch as well.  Its nice to see that this tech. can be applied to both attacks.

Mike


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## jonah2 (Feb 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thats correct, they just may let go. Again, it goes back to what the goal is. Do we want to pin, keeping them momentarily in place, so we can counter strike? Do we want to get the hand off? If they let go, thats fine. I've eliminated the current problem, that being the lapel grab.


My ultimate goal is to go home. If in this synario he lets go because I have not pinned we are at a face off - 50/50 - I dont go much on odds that are not in my favour.

If I pin, I gain control to stop when I want to. Just because he lets go, does not mean you have eliminated the current problem - you have an aggressor standing in front of you who has just failed to intimidate you with a simple grab may try more this time

jonah


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## MJS (Feb 3, 2006)

jonah2 said:
			
		

> My ultimate goal is to go home. If in this synario he lets go because I have not pinned we are at a face off - 50/50 - I dont go much on odds that are not in my favour.
> 
> If I pin, I gain control to stop when I want to. Just because he lets go, does not mean you have eliminated the current problem - you have an aggressor standing in front of you who has just failed to intimidate you with a simple grab may try more this time
> 
> jonah


 
Considering that everyone is going to have their own version of the techniques, to say that one method is better/worse than the other is really a moot point. 

If we think about it, we're at a face off before the grab is attained, so it seems that the odds still are not going to be in our favor. Whats to say that when we're done with that technique, its going to stop him? Are we going to continue to hold him to beat him? Are we going to get away? 

In a previous post, I stated that the tehcnique can be done w/o the grab. You stated that the person may let go. Its possible that they may let go before we have a chance to pin as well.

I certainly don't want to assume that anything.


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## bujuts (Feb 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Actually it is quite strong as a 'pin,' however that limb position creates boyancy, prevents settling, and makes you vulnerable should be struck while in that position..


 
I'm not clear on the boyancy thing at all, I will have to work that pin and concentrate on that to see where you're coming from. Might you elaborate? As for vulnerability, I'm assuming you mean from a third party? Of course, that vulnerability always exists in any static state, I suppose, and such a pin if executed would be very temporary, and stasis would definitely not be part of my strategy.

Were I to execute that pin on the initial attacker, I'd hold it as a high priority to invade their space cancel dimensions so to eliminate the opportunity further attack on their part.

All in all, I find myself using the umbilical check as a stronger tool in the toolchest labeled Contact Manipulation. But it is anything but a fixed position, and I believe that particular position would be a bad idea for any prolonged Contact Maintenance.

Thanks in advance.

In kenpo.

Steve Brown
UKF


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2006)

So if a guy has his arm across his body and your position is cancelling that weapon, I just don't buy that it doesn't exist; however, most positional checks should be activated or done as strikes. And no one can accuse the UKF of not strike checking; so, I imagine the Umbilical check can be done well or poorly just like any thing else.
Sean 
Please come to the Mr. Pick seminar in Spokane this month. Contact info is at www.Kickinfun.com


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Another way we could look at his is: What is the goal that we want to acheive?  Lone Kimono involves pinning the hand, so we can acheive that arm break.  Crossing Talon involves a counter grab, so that we can counter strike.  Now against the wrist grab, I can move my arm counter clock wise, laying the back of my hand over theirs, hit the arm off with my left and counter strike with my right.  Acheived goals with both methods.  Now, looking at DS, I can step back w/o the pin, causing a disruption in his balance and then do the block and follow up moves.


Not really.


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> Thats correct, they just may let go.  Again, it goes back to what the goal is.  Do we want to pin, keeping them momentarily in place, so we can counter strike?  Do we want to get the hand off?  If they let go, thats fine.  I've eliminated the current problem, that being the lapel grab.


No you've taken yourself back to 'square one' and increased his offensive options, and increased your defensive problems.


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> I'm not clear on the boyancy thing at all, I will have to work that pin and concentrate on that to see where you're coming from. Might you elaborate? As for vulnerability, I'm assuming you mean from a third party?


That arm position does not support proper structure or breathing. You cannot settle nor can you maintain your position. You body is vulnerable to strikes because your primary frontal cavities will be open.


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## Bode (Feb 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> That arm position does not support proper structure or breathing. You cannot settle nor can you maintain your position. You body is vulnerable to strikes because your primary frontal cavities will be open.



I can attest to the efficacy of this buoyant arm position. The ability to settle your weight is drastically reduced. In particular I enjoy the vulnerability demonstration or "shields up." With my arm in this position I really feel the difference when someone strikes my chest or abdomen. Just a slight adjustment with the palm parallel or facing inward makes all the difference. 

It makes sense. When the palm is facing up we are communicating to the body that we need strength in the ability to raise our arms. i.e. in the vertical plane. (Muscle recruitment plays a significant role here I imagine).


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

Bode said:
			
		

> I can attest to the efficacy of this buoyant arm position. The ability to settle your weight is drastically reduced. In particular I enjoy the vulnerability demonstration or "shields up." With my arm in this position I really feel the difference when someone strikes my chest or abdomen. Just a slight adjustment with the palm parallel or facing inward makes all the difference.
> 
> It makes sense. When the palm is facing up we are communicating to the body that we need strength in the ability to raise our arms. i.e. in the vertical plane. (Muscle recruitment plays a significant role here I imagine).


"Muscle Re-assignment" per "Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation"


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## MJS (Feb 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Not really.


 
Care to elaborate??


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## MJS (Feb 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> No you've taken yourself back to 'square one' and increased his offensive options, and increased your defensive problems.


 
So, basically anyone who does the technique different, different meaning w/o the pin, is wrong?


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> So, basically anyone who does the technique different, different meaning w/o the pin, is wrong?


Its never a question of right or wrong. It's about ineffective, effective, more effective, and most effective relative to your goals.

The question here is your goals of survival, and the possibilities that exist to prevent you from accomplishing the goals.

If you were to execute this against a committed and determined grabber, without the second hand this could become a strength contest, or he could punch you because of lack of width control, or he could let go and square off, etc.

However if your goal is to simply get away, maybe you could wrestle your arm from him, and maybe you couldn't.

No one has addressed the attack coming from the flank, which is where it is supposed to be. This changes your options but enhances his. fact is there are many options and some are better than others, and we should give ourselves the greatest chance of survival possible.

Historically every other art in the universe from the original Chin-na, to Aikido, Jiujitsu, Taiji, Judo, Escrima, Kali, etc. All do this with a pin. Only in the eclectic motion kenpo with admittedly has a voluminous amount of information not present, would anyone even consider doing it without the pin. is it wrong? No, not as long as you survive. But this is typical. Motion kenpo often has problems knowing what to do with the other hand for the reason I mentioned above. Why be proactive and take control physically, instead, don't pin, just position it in case ......


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## bujuts (Feb 3, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> ...Only in the eclectic motion kenpo with admittedly has a voluminous amount of information not present......


 


			
				bujuts said:
			
		

> Sir, If I might ask, what _is_ "motion kenpo" anyway?  If you feel the need to expound on another thread to keep this discussion on the pin vs. check topic, of course that is your option.
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> 
> ...



Cancel that...google to the rescue....Cheers, SB


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## bujuts (Feb 3, 2006)

Bode said:
			
		

> It makes sense. When the palm is facing up we are communicating to the body that we need strength in the ability to raise our arms. i.e. in the vertical plane. (Muscle recruitment plays a significant role here I imagine).


 
The palm facing up?  Is that the position you gentlemen are referring to as the one creating boyancy?  If so, I suppose that would indeed be odd, and I _think_ I even see how it could affect respiration.  Either way, this isn't the way I do it, but given the difficulty in explaning these subtle differences via the written word, I can see many opportunities for misinterpretation.  So much can be expressed with one hour on the mats, que no?

Cheers,

Steve Brown
UKF


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## Doc (Feb 3, 2006)

bujuts said:
			
		

> Cancel that...google to the rescue....Cheers, SB


When Ed Parker was looking for a vehicle to expand into the commercial market, he discovered he could teach a conceptual 'motion based' product that was less labor intensive and required less knowledge of teachers, and didn't require strict basics or execution. 

It is based on student and teacher personal preferences and rearrangement concepts built around rapid fire motions to overwhelm an attacker. Conceptually it doesn't address grappling either vertically or horizontally, or human anatomy, as well as other significant information that was contained in it's Chinese Kenpo predecessor. 

It's look is derived from 'Splashing Hands' as practiced by Huamea Lefiti under Ark Yuey Wong, although it doesn't contain any of its information. In most instances the terms 'commercial,' and 'motion' are interchageable and Ed Parker Sr. had used both terms along with others as well. Despite the lack of information by design in the model, the head instructors knowledge still forms the base for any group of practitioners, and this accounts for the tremendous desparity between groups of participants in skill and knowledge.

Motion Kenpo evolved concurrently with other Ed Parker Kenpo vehicles, and because of its designed commerciality, is the most widely practiced and well known aspect of Mr. Parker's work. But it is not the most significant nor does it represent the bulk of Ed Parker knowledge. It is A Ed Parker Kenpo, not THE only Ed Parker kenpo vehicle.

Although it is a designed commercial product, all do not teach it as such, but even those are limited by its commercial design. If a kenpo is described  as based on 'motion,' it is the commercial product pioneered succesfully by Ed Parker.

Old friend Dan Inosanto has posted on his site and article I wrote for Inside Kung fu magazine a number of years ago, that may help some understand the evolution of Kenpo in general in the Ed Parker lineage.

http://paintball.iisports.com/page.asp?content_id=8032


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