# A thought on a forum rule, based in logic.



## Juany118 (Jan 5, 2017)

Okay we know there are differences between Main Land China and Hong Kong, largely YM, Lineages.  We also know from past experience that (apparently) few if any YM 1st Gen students teach precisely the same WC/VT.  This clearly extends to the next generation because of some disagreements we have seen.

So can we stop with the "truth" of a system junk?  I am actually a little embarrassed at this point.  I still have an interest in the other TMAs I have studied and there lie differences, but I have yet to see on these forums, or anywhere else the "so and so said this absolute according to my Sifu...So there" junk, even in Aikido where there can be arguments over purpose. 

If other forums can dodge the dogma driven truth junk WC practitioners can right?  So can we just chat and if there is disagree say "my Sifu said this is different..." With some detail as to why, vs "Well no, because I was told no."

The former can lead to growth, the later only to stagnation.   Just a thought in the wee hours since I am a Vampire for the next 4 months due to the CBA.


----------



## Hazardi172 (Jan 5, 2017)

If this is related to the discussion about trapping range, then I think we only discussed that Gary Lam and Wan Kam Leung changed what WSL taught them. This is not anything to argue about because both openly state that they have done so. There is no counter claim to make, it is simply a fact.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jan 5, 2017)

It is a problem that has been going on ever since I started wing chun in 1995. There has always been talk about how the Sifu I had at the time had to be careful what he said due to "politics." I just don't get it, honestly.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> It is a problem that has been going on ever since I started wing chun in 1995. There has always been talk about how the Sifu I had at the time had to be careful what he said due to "politics." I just don't get it, honestly.


This happens in many associations, and is not restricted to Wing Chun. The larger the association, IME, the more likely the politics (though ego among the higher ranks is probably a bigger factor).


----------



## KPM (Jan 5, 2017)

Watch out!  I suggested a "forum rule"....the thread was locked and I ended up temporarily banned!


----------



## wingchun100 (Jan 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This happens in many associations, and is not restricted to Wing Chun. The larger the association, IME, the more likely the politics (though ego among the higher ranks is probably a bigger factor).


 
It's even bigger when someone thinks they are a superstar because they have released a few videos and made the cover of INSIDE KUNG FU a couple times. That happened to my first Sifu. He got into what he described a "chi sao fight" with someone who used to be a pretty well-known name in Wing Chun. From what I could tell, the guy got mad because my teacher was able to land more blows/feel more holes in Mr. Famou Man's structure.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 5, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> It's even bigger when someone thinks they are a superstar because they have released a few videos and made the cover of INSIDE KUNG FU a couple times. That happened to my first Sifu. He got into what he described a "chi sao fight" with someone who used to be a pretty well-known name in Wing Chun. From what I could tell, the guy got mad because my teacher was able to land more blows/feel more holes in Mr. Famou Man's structure.


Been there, sort of. I made the mistake of mentioning a higher-ranking instructor in an internet post once and referring to his length of training. He wasn't happy, as he perceived it as me passing some sort of judgment. I saw it as a reference to fact, as well as a reference to how much time he had left to get even better (at the time, he was probably the most skilled martial artist I'd ever worked with, so I certainly wasn't judging him as lacking).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 5, 2017)

- YM brought WC from Chna to Hong Kong. Nobody else taught WC in Hong Kong. YM was the only WC teacher in Hong Kong. YM modified his WC in Hong Kong. YM's students modified WC in US.

- My teacher Chang Tung Sheng brought SC from China to Taiwan. Nobody else taught SC in Taiwan. Chang was the only SC teacher in Taiwan. Chang modified his SC in Taiwan. The SC 24 forms that was taught in Taiwan is completely different from the one taught in China. Chang's students modified SC in US. Even the basic "hip throw" was changed into "waist lift". Also kick and punch was added in and SC is changed into CC (Combat SC). Some ground skill was also added in within some US local branches.

This is very common in CMA. It's called "evolution".


----------



## Danny T (Jan 5, 2017)

How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jan 5, 2017)

Danny T said:


> How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.


 
Right, but it is when someone states their opinion while saying everyone else is brain dead for thinking differently that we run into trouble.


----------



## Hazardi172 (Jan 5, 2017)

Danny T said:


> How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.



I agree, good attitude


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jan 5, 2017)

KPM said:


> Watch out!  I suggested a "forum rule"....the thread was locked and I ended up temporarily banned!


I think this is enough for another report.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 5, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Right, but it is when someone states their opinion while saying everyone else is brain dead for thinking differently that we run into trouble.


Them opining that everyone else is brain dead only causes trouble 'if' & 'when' another takes it as an affront and then argues with them.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jan 5, 2017)

Solution:  Learn Jow Ga Kung Fu and everyone student and almost every Sifu will accept that you are different. lol. Unless the conversation is who brought Jow Ga to the U.S.  But any other topic is discussed with brotherhood.


----------



## geezer (Jan 5, 2017)

A few random reflections:

My current instructor is a religious fundamentalist and creationist. I am not. He believes that the Christian Bible is the literal word of God, that there is an absolute right and wrong, and so forth. By contrast, I am a seeker of knowledge but understand that many conceptions of "truth" are relative. I believe that however much we may learn from others, that ultimately, it is up to each of us to work out our own "truth". 

Not surprisingly, we each bring our personal _worldviews _to our pursuit of the martial arts. He teaches with a very rigid, authoritarian perspective. I experiment and question. Fortunately, he is not my sifu, but actually my si-dei (younger brother) under our first sifu. I train under him because he is very skilled, intelligent and insightful. I'm not sure why he puts up with me. Maybe it's the association dues and membership fees I send his way? Who knows. Anyway, he hasn't promoted me in rank in the nearly ten years I have belonged to his association! Unfortunately that hasn't changed my perspective, since I honestly don't give a hoot about ranks. But it is worth pointing out that free-thinking comes at a cost when dealing with an authoritarian perspective. 

So getting back to the OP-- we encounter some of those authoritarian, "true-believer" perspectives here. They may be intelligent, and have some excellent ideas that we can learn from. And, they are so certain in their beliefs that they will learn nothing from us ...except that we are stubborn, ignorant and blind to their truth. Ok, there's nothing you can do about that. KPM take note: _Resistance is futile!  
_
Arguing endlessly with "true believers" accomplishes nothing. I will simply post to disagree with those guys, state my case for the benefit of any third parties who may be following the thread, _and let it go_  ...and perhaps take some small consolation in the fact that I occasionally learn something _from them_, while they will, of their own choice, never learn anything _from me!_ 

One more thing... haven't you all noticed how the liveliest threads are the ones in which you have a few of those stubbornly opinionated types who just keep on posting? I guess everybody contributes in their own way.


----------



## Juany118 (Jan 5, 2017)

Danny T said:


> How about just accepting there will be differences of opinions. State your opinion and give an explanation as to why you are of such opinion and move on. Unfortunately there will always be some persons who will be of the opinion their learning and knowledge is greater or more correct... Ok that is your opinion...I'll accept that it is your opinion and that it isn't my job or mission to change it.


This is largely my point.  I have no issues with differences of opinion.  Through debate we learn things.  Someone may even be steadfast in a specific belief based on articulable facts.  There I can agree to disagree. 

Where I think facts stops and dogma begins. When the "debate" devolves to "my Sifu said this is WC, your opinion is different so that isn't WC at all."

I am literally referring to that kind of extreme.


----------



## Juany118 (Jan 6, 2017)

@geezer this popped immediately into my head with your post lol.  It also made me hink of how lucky I feel to have my Sifu and to learn on occasion from his Sifu.  I'll provide an example.

My Sifu teaches us both WC and Kali as you know but in the school he tries to keep them separate.  Thing is, as an example, once he feels you know he WC technique to deal with something, if it works better for you to use the Kali method, he is cool with that.  Example, people throw rounds at my head I use an elbow shield and drive on.  He admittedly lets me get away with a little bit more than others because of my past and current job.  He knows I don't mind taking a hit if my experiment fails lol.

Onto his Sifu.  Went to a Seminar a at his  school with my Sifu.  He started the seminar by saying "I will show you some ways to set things up.  If you have what you think is a better way show me.  Make sure you can show me it is equal or better, but I want to see it, there is no gospel in a fight."  

So he shows a set up that leads to an arm lock for the application of a common peroneal knee strike.  Now my Sifu shows a neck restraint method that accomplishes the same immobilization and his Sifu says "that works too".  During the drills I use both methods to feel it out for myself.  Well one of the "in house" junior Sifu's of the Master holding the seminar comes over and when he sees the neck restraint says "That is not what the Master Demonstrated."  I responded with "well my Sifu used it, the Master said that works to, it works better for me because I have used similar restraints in real fights."  He huffed and walked away.  The more I see things here, the more I am thankful that I have my Sifu and he has his.


----------



## wayfaring (Jan 6, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Okay we know there are differences between Main Land China and Hong Kong, largely YM, Lineages.  We also know from past experience that (apparently) few if any YM 1st Gen students teach precisely the same WC/VT.  This clearly extends to the next generation because of some disagreements we have seen.
> 
> So can we stop with the "truth" of a system junk?  I am actually a little embarrassed at this point.  I still have an interest in the other TMAs I have studied and there lie differences, but I have yet to see on these forums, or anywhere else the "so and so said this absolute according to my Sifu...So there" junk, even in Aikido where there can be arguments over purpose.
> 
> ...



I study a Wing Chun lineage from mainland China that is not Yip Man WC.  Actually the history of our lineage is a group of us were under the Benny Meng -> Moy Yat lineage initially, totally Yip Man.  Then Benny Meng found GM Garrett Gee out in San Francisco, and many of us really related to sifu Gee's teachings.  Eventually Meng moved on to study with someone else, but the rest of us stuck with GM Gee.  

Our system is substantially different IMO than any Yip Man based art I've seen - but caveat I haven't seen all the different blends.  People surmised it actually looked similar to TWC, but GM Gee took a whole weekend this last year to explore that - and our conclusion was substantial differences.  

Because it is so different for the last decade we have had to deal with the "truth of the system" discussion in the public.  We feel we have a very unique, complete system not like others around, and in some areas we find explanations where there previously were none.   To us there is a unique system, and a very very unique head of the family lineage.   But a "better" or "worse" comparison is something I can only truly say for myself personally.  For me, yes.  

With comparisons, sifu Gee always tells us "don't say you're #1, but don't ever let someone call you #2".

I'm still working on that.


----------



## geezer (Jan 6, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> But a "better" or "worse" comparison is something I can only truly say for myself personally.  _For me, yes._



I agree totally. Some on this forum are obsessed with having "the best" WC/VT/WT. Ultimately there is only what is best for each of us personally.


----------



## bully (Jan 6, 2017)

Im pretty lucky in that I dont really have a lineage....or maybe not I suppose as I'm not very good at the art.

During my travels I have seen many types of WC/VT or whatever you want to call it.

I spent nearly 2 months training 6 hours per day in China doing an unknown (to me) Foshan lineage....I enjoyed every minute of it for its similarities and differences to Ip Man WC, some very "Northern" type stuff in the forms and also snake etc but also the Ip Man stuff was there too.

Like many of you I have seen and traded hands (I'm not very good really) with other lineages and took from it what I could.

I spent a day doing Kamon (UK based) Wing Chun with Kevin Chan at his house...and does he know how stuff!! again its different but seems to work.

Spent a day at a Gary Lam seminar in London and again lots to take on board, met some serious WC hitters there and I think like everything these guys would rise to the like cream to the surface if they did Thai Boxing/Karate/TKD/Boxing/MMA/BJJ etc etc...Im just glad they chose WC as their art.

One of the most interesting was a certain family Wing Chun (which will remain nameless as I dont want to upset the chap (from here) who showed it to me) which I briefly saw and was shown by a member from Martial Talk in South Thailand. Some big differences but again also you can see where Ip Man etc and other came from or evolved into. He was/is a phenomenal martial artist and I'm sorry I lost touch with him.

A guy who passed through where I live trained with Chris Chan in San Fran and showed us some of that, it totally blew everything I had learnt out of the water...I disagreed with some but also liked how certain drills were done and took it on board.

I took in everything I could and feel that whilst I am not the best WC guy by far....I haven't trained in a good 2 years due to personal stuff but am trying again now...I really dont get emotional and argumentative about the many differences, life is too short and some things suit some and not others.

Take everything you can from differences, it might change you or you might need it one day.

My final thought, Ip Man modified WC so why can it still not be modified or did he have copyright on that?


----------



## Hazardi172 (Jan 6, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> I study a Wing Chun lineage from mainland China that is not Yip Man WC.  Actually the history of our lineage is a group of us were under the Benny Meng -> Moy Yat lineage initially, totally Yip Man.  Then Benny Meng found GM Garrett Gee out in San Francisco, and many of us really related to sifu Gee's teachings.  Eventually Meng moved on to study with someone else, but the rest of us stuck with GM Gee.
> 
> Our system is substantially different IMO than any Yip Man based art I've seen - but caveat I haven't seen all the different blends.  People surmised it actually looked similar to TWC, but GM Gee took a whole weekend this last year to explore that - and our conclusion was substantial differences.
> 
> ...



That's very interesting. Where does the Garrett Gee wing chun come from and what does it look like? What is TWC and how does it relate to your wing chun?


----------



## wtxs (Jan 6, 2017)

geezer said:


> So getting back to the OP-- we encounter some of those authoritarian, "true-believer" perspectives here. They may be intelligent, and have some excellent ideas that we can learn from. And, they are so certain in their beliefs that they will learn nothing from us ...except that we are stubborn, ignorant and blind to their truth. Ok, there's nothing you can do about that. KPM take note: _Resistance is futile!
> _
> Arguing endlessly with "true believers" accomplishes nothing. I will simply post to disagree with those guys, state my case for the benefit of any third parties who may be following the thread, _and let it go_  ...and perhaps take some small consolation in the fact that I occasionally learn something _from them_, while they will, of their own choice, never learn anything _from me!_
> 
> One more thing... haven't you all noticed how the liveliest threads are the ones in which you have a few of those stubbornly opinionated types who just keep on posting? I guess everybody contributes in their own way.



Oh ppplease Geezer, do tell how you reeeally feel.  However sadly, I kinda miss them  ... please shot me.


----------



## Juany118 (Jan 6, 2017)

wayfaring said:


> I study a Wing Chun lineage from mainland China that is not Yip Man WC.  Actually the history of our lineage is a group of us were under the Benny Meng -> Moy Yat lineage initially, totally Yip Man.  Then Benny Meng found GM Garrett Gee out in San Francisco, and many of us really related to sifu Gee's teachings.  Eventually Meng moved on to study with someone else, but the rest of us stuck with GM Gee.
> 
> Our system is substantially different IMO than any Yip Man based art I've seen - but caveat I haven't seen all the different blends.  People surmised it actually looked similar to TWC, but GM Gee took a whole weekend this last year to explore that - and our conclusion was substantial differences.
> 
> ...




And I like this attitude a lot.  I am on my 2nd System as well.  While I settled down with TWC, I will never say it is "better" than the Gary Lam WSLVT I studied before.  More often than not people settle down not because a system itself is superior but because it's philosophy of combat fits better or, even more often in my experience, you and the Sifu just "click".  That relationship is so important to learning it's not even funny.

The problem is sometimes, rather than spit balling ideas and giving opinions and moving on, a "my system is right, yours is wrong" in a universal sense starts happening.  There will always be a "that is wrong for ME" or "that isn't consistent with my understanding" but the "universal Truth" stuff is what kills me in the end.


----------



## anerlich (Jan 9, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Them opining that everyone else is brain dead only causes trouble 'if' & 'when' another takes it as an affront and then argues with them.



I think I'm entitled to some affront if someone calls me brain dead. Whether I have to react on the forum or take it to heart is another question.


----------



## Danny T (Jan 9, 2017)

anerlich said:


> I think I'm entitled to some affront if someone calls me brain dead. Whether I have to react on the forum or take it to heart is another question.


Yep that is what was stated.


----------



## Eric_H (Jan 11, 2017)

Hazardi172 said:


> That's very interesting. Where does the Garrett Gee wing chun come from and what does it look like? What is TWC and how does it relate to your wing chun?



Hung Fa Yi by oral legend (so take with a grain of salt) was largely a private style of the Chan Family. They were financiers of the King Fa Wui Gwoon (red boat opera) and reportedly sheltered Tan Sau Ng when he went into hiding. In recompense he taught the Chan family his WC, with whom it stayed up until GM Gee's teacher. GM Gee was the first non-related person to be taught the full system AFAIK. 

TWC is a separate system from GM William Cheung, who credits GM Yip Man as his teacher. They're not even close to the same thing, though there are a few superficial similarities (high tahn sau for example) which led people such a R. Chu and Rene Ritchie create a bunch of rumors back in the late 90's early 2000's that we were the same system. There's a video floating around comparing the different SNT that was a long thread on here.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jan 11, 2017)

Juany, what you're suggesting would make these forums and the Wing Chun community in general a much better place and I think it could make us all better martial artists in the process. I fear that there is no hope for the "community", it's just too far gone. If we agree to behave better here and police ourselves on that point, I think we'd have a really good asset here. A lot of really good resources walked away from KF Mag forums because it couldn't be done there.

I started in a Moy Yat school and still have a high opinion of that lineage. My sifu there learned directly from Moy Yat and was very resolute on what he was taught and how he expected us to learn. I don't recall him ever saying anything about any other lineage. He focused on who he was and what he was teaching us.

When I made the decision to move to Seattle I looked and realized there were 3 wing chun schools and about a million jkd/jun fan/new-modified wing chun varieties. I decided I would train with whoever was closest and/or best. The non-traditional ones didn't feel right to me, personally. I saw things that looked vaugely familiar and I heard them refer to some things as "bong sao" or "tan sao", but it seemed completely unrelated to what I had been learning. Not "bad", just unrelated. The only problem I had and have really with that community is when I hear "well we know Wing Chun, but we also know..." I wish they could be proud of what they are without relating it to something that they are not, but there were other options for me.

I visited and spend time in each of the 3 "pure" wing chun schools and really struggled with the differences. I'll admit all this time later (17 years) that part of the problem was emptying my own cup, but also, how and what they were doing did not feel like a continuation of what I had started and it didn't land with me. I met a guy in a town about 60 miles away who had trained in the Moy Yat school in Philadelphia and I drove 120 miles round trip to train with him once a week for about 6 months. It was "home" to me. The others were as if I said "I really enjoy chocolate" and someone said "here's some chocolate" and it was brown, but it was BBQ sauce...I knew that it was fundamentally different. Notice that I'm still not saying "better", but they weren't interchangeable. That person eventually became unavailable to me and I was without formal training for a while, though by this point I had a few friends to train informally with.

I met my current SiFu a few years later and put my head down and focused on learning and staying consistent. We are Duncan Leung lineage. I don't claim to be an expert in Moy Yat Ving Tsun, but I have some sense of the pedagogical differences and I think frankly that they are better at some things than us and not as good as others. I do not think they are fundamentally different, though the experience of learning in each family is. I am very proud of my lineage and my association with Duncan Leung. He has always stated his position in the Yip Man family matter of factly and stopped talking. I've never heard or seen anything in writing that suggests that he disparages or wants me to disparage anyone else. I asked him once if the Wing Chun sifus in New York, like him and Moy Yat, knew either other and he said "yes, I knew Moy Yat in New York" and stopped talking. Message received: there is no reason to talk about other lineage heads and sifus.

With a few exceptions, most of this drama and bad behavior is from students not the heads of these families. I did something last week that I haven't done in over a decade. I visited another school when I was traveling. Not Duncan Leung lineage, but a friendly cousin, so to speak. I went in as a grateful beginner and did basic drills and chi sao with people much less experienced than me. I had a fantastic time and it reminded me to do things that I had kind of forgotten to do. It put some different ideas in my head and I walked away happy and better. I will visit them again and hope to return the favor to them or someone else.

My SiFu also had a rare opportunity to spend a week with an elder mainland lineage holder in Asia some years back and we gained perspective from that. Didn't change things, but it puts what have in perspective and that perspective is that no one should claim to have the sole truth. We also study a white crane system that has FREAKISH parallels to Wing Chun in it's forms, it's hands, it's movement. There is a context for what we know to be Wing Chun, it's not a perfectly unique and contained source of truth. It's just not.

All of this is stupid. It's destructive, it's bad for us and it's bad for our art. We can and should expect, demand and give better. Is it realistic? ... I'll do my best to do my part, but we can be hijacked by evangelists and true believers.


----------



## KangTsai (Jan 12, 2017)

I still have absolutely zero understanding of why such thing is significant other than purely for the sake of conversation. Seriously, why is something as mundane and shallow as... distance, separated into entire lineages?


----------



## wingchun100 (Jan 12, 2017)

I hate all this lineage politic stuff. I have a very specific reason for hating it, too. Not sure I should go into it here. Let's just say...I hate it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jan 12, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I hate all this lineage politic stuff. I have a very specific reason for hating it, too. Not sure I should go into it here. Let's just say...I hate it.


I find it frustrating, even absent your situation, Steve. Lineage should be useful for understanding differences, not an obstacle to understanding and discussion.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jan 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I find it frustrating, even absent your situation, Steve. Lineage should be useful for understanding differences, not an obstacle to understanding and discussion.


 
Or, as I discussed with you in private, an obstacle from moving forward.


----------

