# Palisut Flow Drill Techniques



## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2002)

Some time ago Kaith suggested we do a "techniques" discussion similar to some karate boards.  So I though I would bring it up again.  Although difficult to explain the sensitivity side of things with words, we can still go over the basic techniques so people can experiment and find it for themselves.  I'll start with the palisut flow drill with variations.  This is the way I was taught the drill and we expanded on it (doesn't mean its right)!

Person A = hammer grip, Person B=icepick grip
1. A attacks with a #1 angle attack (high angled attack to your left side)

2. B defends by scooping the knife over B's arm and passing it to the right (counter clockwise)

3. once B gets to 6 oclock the live hand checks A's knife hand to deliver a lowline thrust.

4. A checks the attack with the live hand then delivers a #7 thrust 

5. B parrys with knife hand then grabs with live hand(if hand is trapped you can do the hubad left right left)

6. A releases grab with live hand

7. Drill starts over.

Some Notes on #5:   Through experimentation we are playing with B attacking right away with a #1 after the grab (this will feel exactly like hubad).  Then A is forced to pass B's hand down onto Bs live hand which will release Bs grab (or get cut).  If A grabbed B, B has to release before beginning the flow over.  

Try it, you'll like it.


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## KumaSan (Apr 16, 2002)

In your numbering system, is a #7 a forehand or backhand thrust?


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KumaSan _
> 
> *In your numbering system, is a #7 a forehand or backhand thrust? *




Sorry, our #7 is a backhand palm up thrust to the other person's right side of the body.


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## KumaSan (Apr 16, 2002)

Ahhh, got it. Thanks!


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## arnisandyz (Apr 16, 2002)

Let me know how it works for you.  The palisut is a pretty generic drill (many styles do some variation of it).  There are some MPG movies on the web by other clubs that illustrate it better than words.  

You can find a bunch here
http://www.geocities.com/dominocompserv/fma/_videos.html

There are also many other techniques here.  Happy Training.


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## KumaSan (Apr 16, 2002)

Yeah, I've seen them teach it where I train, but I've not learned it yet. I'm still working with the 5 count sumbrada. Thanks for the link by the way, now I have something else to waste time at work with. Just what I needed! (Ask my boss)


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## Cthulhu (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KumaSan _
> 
> *Yeah, I've seen them teach it where I train, but I've not learned it yet. I'm still working with the 5 count sumbrada. Thanks for the link by the way, now I have something else to waste time at work with. Just what I needed! (Ask my boss) *



Ah, sumbrada...arnisandyz tried to kill me with sumbrada the other night.  He had me working on switching from 3-count to 5-count 'on the fly' to the point where I literally could not lift my right arm.  Does he give me a break?  NOOooooo...he makes me switch to my left hand.  

Oh, and arnisandyz...that link didn't work for me.

Cthulhu


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## KumaSan (Apr 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *
> Oh, and arnisandyz...that link didn't work for me.
> ...



Forgot to mention it to ya, the period at the end of the sentence got included in the link. Quick edit job should fix you right up. Or open link in new window, then backspace one time and try it again.


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## Cthulhu (Apr 16, 2002)

Ah, thanks!  I went ahead and fixed the link...it should work for everybody now.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Apr 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> 
> *our #7 is a backhand palm up thrust to the other person's right side of the body. *



Incidentally, I was thinking about this at work while I should have been thinking about something else: Some people do this strike palm up, others do the #6 and #7 with the palm facing to the side (that is, turned even further around so the palm faces fully to the right on the #7). The latter is convenient if one wants to do sixes into sevens as a flowing drill; I find either way works OK for the stick but palm up (or palm down on the #6) matters if it's a knife. Does anyone regularly do it with the palm facing to the side and if so why?


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## arnisandyz (Apr 17, 2002)

One advantage palm up palm down thrust has over the palm to the side grip is the blade can penatrate the ribcage more easily (blade is same angle as ribs).  Also, I have found that people with some non-filipino knife fighting (like from the military) that use a palm to the side grip tend to use a saber grip which puts pressure on the thumb and forefinger rather than the last 3 fingers and palm. The grip is not as strong and the angle of the wrist isn't as stong either.  Think about hitting something with force with your wrist at that angle.  Palm to the side works well coming in from a lower angle thrust or coming upward like an uppercut punch (prison shank style), but not as well for a #6 or #7 thrust to the upper torso.


I just read your post again Arnisador and now I get what your saying.  The fashion that you described does seem stronger than the saber grip I was describing.  The wrist seems strong this way if you keep everything close, but if extend the arm the wrist angle changes making it a bit weaker.  Might want to experiment with both starting your thrust palm out then twisting it to palm down as your arm extends for the #6. (or palm to the inside to palm up on the #7).  That way your wrist is in the best angle through the entire strike.  I am doing this motion as i type this.


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## Cthulhu (Apr 17, 2002)

Got to play with this drill tonight, and it did make things interesting. It was cool because after working this for awhile, we'd end up flowing from palisut, to hubud, to knife tapping, picking, etc.  It's neat how everything just sort of flows together.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Apr 17, 2002)

Good points about the strength of the grip *arnisandyz*. I think it definitely has to be palm up/down with the knife due to the ribs--it also just _feels_ right--and I believe it's better that way for the stick for most situations. The flowing drill and the situations you mention, like a low angle attack, may lend themselves to the other way.

I've seen people who try to do it palm to the side all the time; is this indicative of some particular style, I wonder, or just one person's habit?


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## IFAJKD (May 1, 2002)

OK, I have a few requests here. First I love the palisute drill and incorporate angles 5, 11, and returns to angle 2 also incorporating gunting on some of these angles. My problem and request is this. 
I use the Inosanto numbering system and it seems that you have some commonality in numbering between Arnisador, and  Arnisandyz. Is there an explanation of the numbering system you use ? somewhere ? Also are you saying the difference between 7 and 2 is a thrust vs cut. I have always used 7 as more of a center mass angle and 2 as an outside angle.


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## IFAJKD (May 1, 2002)

Also try using some Dumog choke points to move your training partner in this drill. The one scooping does this part. from there it is so much more diverse going into Hubud. Some hate this by the way. But give it a try. 
Who do you recommend for a Sayoc Kali Seminar. I am trying to complete my summer schedule for hosting FMA at my school.


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## Cthulhu (May 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by IFAJKD _
> 
> *OK, I have a few requests here. First I love the palisute drill and incorporate angles 5, 11, and returns to angle 2 also incorporating gunting on some of these angles. My problem and request is this.
> I use the Inosanto numbering system and it seems that you have some commonality in numbering between Arnisador, and  Arnisandyz. Is there an explanation of the numbering system you use ? somewhere ? Also are you saying the difference between 7 and 2 is a thrust vs cut. I have always used 7 as more of a center mass angle and 2 as an outside angle.  *



Since I train with arnisandyz, I'll give it a shot.  Basically, for simplicity, we use the Modern Arnis numbering system. 

-Angles 1 through 4 are the same in the MA and  Inosanto systems.  

-Angle 5 is a stomach thrust.  

-Angle 6 is a palm-down thrust to the opponent's  left chest.  

-Angle 7 is a palm-up thrust to the opponent's   right chest.  

-Angle 8 is from the opponent's right knee to left  shoulder (or simply across).  

-Angle 9 is from opponent's left knee to right   shoulder (or simply across).  

-Angle 10 is a palm-down thrust to the opponent's  left eye.  

-Angle 11 is a palm-up thrust to the opponent's  right eye.  

-Angle 12 is a vertical slash down the center of   the opponent. 


So for the 7 vs. 2 thing, angle 2 is a high backhand slash and angle 7 is a chest thrust in the Modern Arnis numbering system.

As for the Sayoc Kali, of course the ideal thing would be to get Grand Tuhon Chris Sayoc himself.  I believe they're based out of Pennsylvania.  Check their website at www.sayoc.com.

Cthulhu


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## arnisandyz (May 1, 2002)

Sayok Kali

Chris Sayoc is a given if you want to go straight to the source. His rates can be really high (but he does command that which may be a benifit if you are the host).  He definately will bring the people in at a premium price if he is available.  Ray Dianaldo (my instructor) of Filipino Combat Systems is a highly ranked Sayoc Kali Instructor.  If your intersted in only Sayoc Kali you probably need to let him know, since he incorporates it with other systems he teaches.  When he teaches us, it use to be this is from Sayoc or this is from Balintiwak, etc... but now he is saying more and more this is FCS Kali since it becomes difficult to see where the different arts blend.

As Cthulhu said, we use the modern arnis numbering in our small group simply because we all know it.  Its not any better or worse than any of the others.

Yes, the dumog and sikaran and other "extra curricular activities" during different flow drills really throw people off!!


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## Cthulhu (May 2, 2002)

Of course I shouldn't have left out Ray Dionaldo (he'll probably kick my *** now)!  Dionaldo is *way* up there in the Sayoc ranking heirarchy.  Besides Chris Sayoc himself, I think there are only three people above Dionaldo in rank...and one is the inheritor of the system.  Like arnisandyz said, though...you'd probably need to tell Ray that you'd like the Sayoc stuff.  He has so much experience in other FMA and because he's constantly evolving, everything is sort of blended together.  Watching Ray with a blade can be scary sometimes.  Cool, but scary.

arnisandyz, do we even do straight flow drills anymore?    I can't remember the last time we did something simple like hubud and it stayed hubud 

Cthulhu


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## arnisandyz (May 2, 2002)

Yes, the Kayanan Brothers are both very good.  They live in the New york/Jersey area I think.  It is rumored that they are decendents of a fierce canibal tribe in the southern Philippines, but I think they are dieting, so don't worry if they look at you strange!  (just kidding about the dieting part - but i do believe their ancestors were a warrior tribe) They're both very nice guys and highly skllled.  To say they teach the Sayoc system isn't enough, they live it.  They also work directly with Chris Sayoc in helping evolve the art.  The succesor to the system (Chris' son) is of course very good, however the Kayanans and Ray are much older and have a bit more experience in the art. They all trained under Bo Sayoc (Chris's father) So including Ray, you can't go wrong with any of these top 4 instructors.


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## Cthulhu (May 2, 2002)

You can see the Kayanan influence on Sayoc Kali by looking at the Sayoc site.  Some of the drills and/or templates are named after the Kayanans.  I think that's fairly significant, given the desire to keep the art within the Sayoc family.

Cthulhu


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