# your thought with MMA getting big



## MMAfighter (Apr 12, 2006)

I think it's cool that MMA is now getting more respect, but it comes with a price. Now i go to school with kids telling me i dunno nothing about MMA, that i think i just know everything. Yet those guys saw one episode of TUF and think they're a BJJ black belt or the next fedor emelianenko. It's so pathetic. I just wanna know what you think about MMA getting bigger...i honestly don't like it because of all the stupid things we're getting. But i guess nothing comes for free.


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## Eternal Beginner (Apr 12, 2006)

MMAfighter said:
			
		

> I think it's cool that MMA is now getting more respect, but it comes with a price. Now i go to school with kids telling me i dunno nothing about MMA, that i think i just know everything. Yet those guys saw one episode of TUF and think they're a BJJ black belt or the next fedor emelianenko. It's so pathetic. I just wanna know what you think about MMA getting bigger...i honestly don't like it because of all the stupid things we're getting. But i guess nothing comes for free.



It is a trade off definitely.  Hopefully there will be more good than bad.  

You will have your guys who have watched the UFC's, read a few book and watch some DVD's who open up their MMA clubs and if they don't hurt anyone great.  

As far as I have seen in our city the good guys are winning and the wannabe's get found out pretty quickly.  Would explain why most good clubs have full classes and others have a handful of students that no one ever hears of.  

There will always be the "secret masters" of MMA who convince their students not to compete or cross train in any other clubs and those are the ones you have to watch out for.  Usually what they are training is substandard, and they know it.  They can't risk the exposure.  Hopefully, people will be smart enough to seek out reputable trainers and that will keep MMA from going the way of the commercialized mcdojo we all love to demonize.

You take the good with the bad, there are always two sides to a coin.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

Every sport has it's wannabes...


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## WingChun Lawyer (Apr 12, 2006)

Competition tends to keep combat sports at a decent level. And MMA involves competition, necessarily, so new students cannot be fooled with the too deadly to compete argument.


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## Eternal Beginner (Apr 12, 2006)

WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Competition tends to keep combat sports at a decent level. And MMA involves competition, necessarily, so new students cannot be fooled with the too deadly to compete argument.


I wish this were 100% true.  There are the MMA clubs that appeal to the hobbyist and discourage competition, even going so far as to mislead students as to tournament details even if they have shown an interest.  

But I suppose those that want to be fooled will be because I can't imagine someone taking an "instructor" seriously with absolutely nothing to show for his credentials, be it a competition record, reputable people he has trained with or even being "student certified" and proving his ability by having successful students. Not everyone can be a cagefighter or a tournament champion, but they should have some grounds to base their claims on.

Anyone can claim to teach MMA, which is a shame because it is a growing sport and having 14 year old MMA "blackbelts" (yes, I know, MMA doesn't usually have belts...but it does happen)  teaching in their clubs does the whole sport a disservice.  It puts it on par with all the other MA practices that so many have mocked and tried to distance themselves from by purposefully practicing MMA and not other arts.

Is there a solution?  Probably not.  There will always be wannabes and you just hope that they don't draw attention to themselves and give the reputable guys a bad name.  And hopefully no one gets hurt - because that is all a sport which is slowly gaining ground needs.


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## shesulsa (Apr 12, 2006)

Eternal Beginner said:
			
		

> As far as I have seen in our city the good guys are winning and the wannabe's get found out pretty quickly.  Would explain why most good clubs have full classes and others have a handful of students that no one ever hears of.
> 
> There will always be the "secret masters" of MMA who convince their students not to compete or cross train in any other clubs and those are the ones you have to watch out for.  Usually what they are training is substandard, and they know it.  They can't risk the exposure.  Hopefully, people will be smart enough to seek out reputable trainers and that will keep MMA from going the way of the commercialized mcdojo we all love to demonize.
> 
> You take the good with the bad, there are always two sides to a coin.



I'm not MMA, so please forgive me for asking ...

From your statement I'm gleaning that MMA is strictly and only a competition sport?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm not MMA, so please forgive me for asking ...
> 
> From your statement I'm gleaning that MMA is strictly and only a competition sport?


-Not at all. But it does kinda go as an unwritten rule that an instructor of MMA should have cage experiance.


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## shesulsa (Apr 12, 2006)

Really?  Doesn't that depend on who he's teaching and why?  Especially since you've stated that it's not strictly a competition sport?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

That's been my experiance. I would personaly always prefer a coach experianced in the sport being taught. That's generally the case with every other sport too.

I don't see how it not being a competition sport for most involved makes a difference. Care to elaborate?


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## shesulsa (Apr 12, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> I don't see how it not being a competition sport for most involved makes a difference. Care to elaborate?



Sure.  

My daughter is being taught track and field by people who have not run marathons, nor olympiads.  Can they teach her how to shotput, hurdle and leap? Sure they can.  Is that good enough for someone who's not going to be an Olympic athlete?  Sure it is.  Why?  Because she is still learning great skills which are appropriate for her skill level at this point.  Now should she suddenly reveal she has world-class talent, THEN we would consider hiring someone who can take her as far as she can go.

If most people who train in MMA don't even compete then why is this opinion so convictive?



			
				Eternal Beginner said:
			
		

> Usually what they are training is substandard, and they know it.



What is standard?  If Standard = Competition level, then I can understand that statement, however, if most MMAists aren't competitors, then Standard is not competition level, rather somewhere else, no?  

And who says competition level is necessarily better than another?  Isn't it all about the PURPOSE behind a teacher's tutelage and a student's training?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Sure.
> 
> My daughter is being taught track and field by people who have not run marathons, nor olympiads. Can they teach her how to shotput, hurdle and leap? Sure they can. Is that good enough for someone who's not going to be an Olympic athlete? Sure it is. Why? Because she is still learning great skills which are appropriate for her skill level at this point. Now should she suddenly reveal she has world-class talent, THEN we would consider hiring someone who can take her as far as she can go.
> 
> ...


-You certainly make a good point with your track and field analogy. MMA may reach that point, but right now MMA is relatively small. The expert coaches all pretty much have been in the cage. I don't mean to imply that somebody that trains long and hard with a good MMA gym has to compete to be a good coach. I would argue that it helps though. 

I think what worries MMA guys is the "MMA instructors" that come out of the woodwork that watched a video or two or watched TUF start teaching. At best details will be missed. At worst things will be taught wrong or outright ineffective techniques will be taught.


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## shesulsa (Apr 12, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> I think what worries MMA guys is the "MMA instructors" that come out of the woodwork that watched a video or two or watched TUF start teaching. At best details will be missed. At worst things will be taught wrong or outright ineffective techniques will be taught.


I think it goes without saying that this is true for any art, no?

And really, trying to teach an art one has only learned on video is dubious, certainly.  

Still not quite in keeping with this statement by someone else, though:


			
				WingChun Lawyer said:
			
		

> Competition tends to keep combat sports at a decent level. And MMA involves competition, necessarily, so new students cannot be fooled with the too deadly to compete argument.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 12, 2006)

> I think it goes without saying that this is true for any art, no?


-I definately agree with that.

I can't speak for WCL but I think what he is getting at is competition by whoever is doing it will benefit everybody that does MMA. Whether they compete themselves or not. Make sense?


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## Andrew Green (Apr 12, 2006)

I don't think your right about MMA coaches and having had fights, some of the big names in MMA coaching don't have a record.  Even Cesar Gracie got his first official fight a little while ago.  Matt Thorton, who I believe I have seen you reference does not have a MMA record that I know of.

A lot do, largely because there aren't a lot of people doing it.  But I think that will change, and we'll end up more like boxing.  Some coaches have fights, others don't.  Most coaches where never top fighters, finding someone that is both a top fighter and a top coach is a rare thing.

Personally I doubt I will ever get in the cage, it's not really a interest, I suppose anything is possible though.


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## Cruentus (Apr 12, 2006)

MMAfighter said:
			
		

> I think it's cool that MMA is now getting more respect, but it comes with a price. Now i go to school with kids telling me i dunno nothing about MMA, that i think i just know everything. Yet those guys saw one episode of TUF and think they're a BJJ black belt or the next fedor emelianenko. It's so pathetic. I just wanna know what you think about MMA getting bigger...i honestly don't like it because of all the stupid things we're getting. But i guess nothing comes for free.


 
What is nice about MMA is that talk is cheap; you can always prove it in the ring or on the mats.

When I was doing more competive boxing, kickboxing, and grappling back in my high school/early college days, I could always invite the big mouths to my school to throw on the gloves.

Just be sure that your not the one being a big mouth yourself, though..


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## Eternal Beginner (Apr 12, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I'm not MMA, so please forgive me for asking ...
> 
> From your statement I'm gleaning that MMA is strictly and only a competition sport?


Not strictly and only, no.  Generally speaking, however, part of the training for MMA is to engage in testing out your accomplishments and seeing how they actually work on new and different opponents - thus the fairly de rigeur competition aspect.  

Most proponents of the "method" of MMA believe in testing everything against fully resisting opponents when possible.  Unless you belong to an extremely large club I have a hard time believing that you are truly testing anything if you restrict your methods and testing to only classmates.

I see competiton as an integral part of most MMA training, even though many people will not actually enter a cage, but they will test their grappling in grappling competitions, and kickboxing and boxing as well.  It doesn't have to be a cage-fight to be tested.  There aren't many MMA style tournaments right now, although they do occur if you look for them, and usually the only way to test yourself  is on promoted cards or events...obviously not an option for most people.  But you can test your stuff in other venues which are very accessible even though it may only be a subset of the full range of techniques that comprise the commonly accepted techniques of MMA.

So no, I don't think every instructor has to be a cagefighter...I never said that.  But I do think they have to have something to back up their claim as "instructor".  

As I said before, if they don't have a record themselves in any MMA bouts, grappling tourneys, boxing matches, kickboxing or anything, they should at least be able to point to succesful students who have done well or a track record of studying with reputable people.  Would you be so willing to have a coach for a sport that has no proof that he has ever played the sport, coached another athelete to a decent level ( not necessarily world champ) or at least learned the game from others who were recognized as competent?  Would you put your child in the hands of a coach who said, well I watched the NBA finals, really analyzing it, played with a bunch of ten year olds and went throught them like bowling pins...so I know my stuff works, and had never taken a coaching lesson or even been coached by a real coach?  Sure the guy can dribble a little and sink a few shots...and if he is training people who have never played before he probably looks awesome, especially if he starts out with superior physical attributes than the students.  Does that make him a good coach?

And remember...I am not talking of everyone who studies MMA...they can be hobbyists who never plan on doing anything but train twice a week.  I specifically mean the ones who are claiming to be expert enough to teach them.  They should be held to a higher standard.


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## shesulsa (Apr 13, 2006)

Eternal Beginner said:
			
		

> Would you put your child in the hands of a coach who said, well I watched the NBA finals, really analyzing it, played with a bunch of ten year olds and went throught them like bowling pins...so I know my stuff works, and had never taken a coaching lesson or even been coached by a real coach?



Of course not.  In the case of my track and field analogy, for instance, while the men and women coaching these kids aren't world-class athletes, they know their stuff and, as I said, as skill levels rise, needs change.  My daughter is getting far more important things from her sports experiences than a trophy, a ribbon or bragging rights.  But then again, by some, this is considered wimpy and substandard when all comparisons are on the table honestly.



> Sure the guy can dribble a little and sink a few shots...and if he is training people who have never played before he probably looks awesome, especially if he starts out with superior physical attributes than the students.  Does that make him a good coach?



Does being a good competitor make him a good coach? Not necessarily.  There are plenty of great athletes who suck as coaches.  The sweeping statements will just never work.



> And remember...I am not talking of everyone who studies MMA...they can be hobbyists who never plan on doing anything but train twice a week.  I specifically mean the ones who are claiming to be expert enough to teach them.  They should be held to a higher standard.



This last statement is applicable to anyone who calls themself a "teacher" or "instructor" and implies that one must prove oneself as a badass to be a competent teacher.  People who think that should really never, ever teach people for any reason other than to stroke their own egos because the students will get little of real value from that instruction, imo.  It lends to ego, a chip on the shoulder ... not a desire to shape people.

Just like anything else, a tiny percentage of people who train in any martial art or fighting system will be successful as athletes.  That's what? about 1 in 100? if one is lucky?  So does that mean that 99 people have trained worthlessly and that the instructor is a failure?  Define success.  Define failure.

I will always contend that success is just like truth - it is perception and perception alone.  How each person defines truth and success for themselves and tries to apply it to everyone around them is their problem and theirs alone.

Don't kid yourself.  Every art has its hey-day.  MMA is not the first art to go to the mat nor rely on competition for one-upmanship and it certainly won't be the last.  MMA, whether y'all like it or not, is not the be-all-end-all to martial arts, fighting arts or combat.  I'm really glad MMAists get to revel in the spotlight for now, but let's all keep our heads level and remember that it's a fad.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 13, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> My daughter is getting far more important things from her sports experiences than a trophy, a ribbon or bragging rights.  But then again, by some, this is considered wimpy and substandard when all comparisons are on the table honestly.



So get her butt into a serious routine, I want her training 6 days a week, twice a day.  I want her on a strict diet, following a strength training regime.  I want her traveling to every meet you can find.  I want her to put this in front of everything, school, work, family, everything.  The rest of the family can support her, sit on the sidelines everyday while she trains if neccessary, family vacations are to be based around track meet locations, if you travel forget site seeing, find a coach and train while you are there.




(For those without any sense of sarcasim detection...  )


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## shesulsa (Apr 13, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> So get her butt into a serious routine, I want her training 6 days a week, twice a day.  I want her on a strict diet, following a strength training regime.  I want her traveling to every meet you can find.  I want her to put this in front of everything, school, work, family, everything.  The rest of the family can support her, sit on the sidelines everyday while she trains if neccessary, family vacations are to be based around track meet locations, if you travel forget site seeing, find a coach and train while you are there.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But ... but ... but coach ... what if she's sick and dehydrated and ... and bleeding????


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## Andrew Green (Apr 13, 2006)

Pain is weakness leaving the body!

Suck it up buttercup and gimme 50!


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## shesulsa (Apr 13, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Pain is weakness leaving the body!
> 
> Suck it up buttercup and gimme 50!



*whimper* I feel so inferior .... *whimper*


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## green meanie (Apr 13, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Suck it up buttercup and gimme 50!


 
:rofl:


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