# Short 2 - lets see what we can dig out!



## Kyoshi (Mar 16, 2010)

Yeah - as the title says - lets see what we can find.

Just continue the list - so we have everything updated all the way:

We advance with a block
We attack with the first hand
We learn to defend and attack at the same time
We learn the wide kneel
We learn the knuckle attack, which has no backup
We learn the half fist
We learn the open palm
We learn the difference in checks and blocks, by the rotational momentum

We begin on a new pattern
We have our hands ready, and not cocked in the side
We learn to cock high and low
We learn to keep the same higth when moving up and down

In the first 2 movements, we let the chest come to the front hand and not the front hand back to the chest.

What else?
Remember to continue the list!

Thanks
-N


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## punisher73 (Mar 16, 2010)

Adding onto the "advance with a block".  This is the first time (in forms) that we move INTO the attack instead of back like in short/long 1.  It can be that we are more experienced and choose to move in, or we can't move back to create distance and have to move in.

We are also introduced to the 45 degree angles creating an "*" pattern on the floor + and X.

Along with the middle knuckle fist, we are introduced to dropping underneath a punch as we turn into the unknown.  Before in the forms, we would cover step to see what was behind us.


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## Blindside (Mar 16, 2010)

I have a question on the raking middle knuckle attack. Whats the point? Is this just category completion or is there much of a functional use for this particular attack? My lineage replaced that with a center knuckle uppercut for lack of a better term.

Also, I'm assuming the student isn't actually "learning this for the first time," only that we are assembling in a form for the first time. I've worked out and studied under several different AK instructors, but not really pursuing belt advancement, and I'm assuming that the curriculum behind the forms trains these aspects independently of the form. Is that correct?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2010)

Blindside said:


> I have a question on the raking middle knuckle attack. Whats the point? Is this just category completion or is there much of a functional use for this particular attack? My lineage replaced that with a center knuckle uppercut for lack of a better term.
> 
> Also, I'm assuming the student isn't actually "learning this for the first time," only that we are assembling in a form for the first time. I've worked out and studied under several different AK instructors, but not really pursuing belt advancement, and I'm assuming that the curriculum behind the forms trains these aspects independently of the form. Is that correct?


 Raking occurs because you are dropping height. I would recomend a vertical punch, considering you are droppping. An uppercutt would seem to conflict.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2010)

Kyoshi said:


> Yeah - as the title says - lets see what we can find.
> 
> Just continue the list - so we have everything updated all the way:
> 
> ...


A wide kneel just means you aren't close kneeling.
Sean


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## Blindside (Mar 16, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Raking occurs because you are dropping height. I would recomend a vertical punch, considering you are droppping. An uppercutt would seem to conflict.
> Sean


 
Actually, we aren't dropping height there, we are actually rising from under, different from the standard AK or Tracy fare, but still introducing something new to the student.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 16, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Actually, we aren't dropping height there, we are actually rising from under, different from the standard AK or Tracy fare, but still introducing something new to the student.


I can't argue that. because, when I learned the form, they told me not to expect that everyone sees it the way they do; so, you are absolutly right! You could do this as a rise; however, the foot work will be different from the way we do it.
sean


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## Kyoshi (Mar 17, 2010)

Concerning the raking mid knuckle strike - we learned that its a purposely build-in-flaw. Which forces us to think about every technique we do, not just how but also the why.

And yes, the first time in the forms that we meet the techniques.

We also have the combined power principles!


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Kyoshi said:


> Concerning the raking mid knuckle strike - we learned that its a purposely build-in-flaw. Which forces us to think about every technique we do, not just how but also the why.
> 
> And yes, the first time in the forms that we meet the techniques.
> 
> We also have the combined power principles!


 
no, it's not.  Flaws were not intentionally built into the forms and other material.  that is a silly myth.


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## Blindside (Mar 17, 2010)

Kyoshi said:


> Concerning the raking mid knuckle strike - we learned that its a purposely build-in-flaw. Which forces us to think about every technique we do, not just how but also the why.
> 
> And yes, the first time in the forms that we meet the techniques.
> 
> We also have the combined power principles!


 
So we are asking a beginner level student to intentional commit a flaw into muscle memory?  Um.... yikes.


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## Blindside (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> no, it's not. Flaws were not intentionally built into the forms and other material. that is a silly myth.


 
So what is the functional purpose of the entry line?  Presumably, the inclusion in the form means it something of significant value.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Blindside said:


> So what is the functional purpose of the entry line? Presumably, the inclusion in the form means it something of significant value.


 
It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.

This is my view from the Tracy perspective. We don't do a lot of the categorization and theorizing and whatnot that it seems people from other lineages do. To us, this is just a useful defensive combo.

But, the notion that Mr. Parker built intentional flaws into the material is silly and is not true. It's a silly idea to begin with and I'd hope that a minimal amount of critical thinking would see it as such. And, Doc has directly said as much. I think a lot of people don't realize what they are doing with the movements, and they chalk it up to some deliberate flaw engineered in by Mr. Parker. It's nonsense to think that is what happened.


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## Blindside (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.
> 
> This is my view from the Tracy perspective. We don't do a lot of the categorization and theorizing and whatnot that it seems people from other lineages do. To us, this is just a useful defensive combo.


 
So you are doing a thrust, then the downward rake?  That is different than several AK lineages than I have seen, which just do the downward rake.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Blindside said:


> So you are doing a thrust, then the downward rake? That is different than several AK lineages than I have seen, which just do the downward rake.


 
yup, thrust to drive the knuckle between the ribs.  Traumatizing the intercostal muscles, all the little muscles that run between the ribs, can leave him hurting for weeks.  Then rake.

There are a lot of nerves along the rib area, and it's sensitive.  That area that is covered and protected by the arm when the arm is hanging down normally.  When you get under the arm and hit the torso in the rib area down the sides, it's sensitive.


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## CoryKS (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.


 
That's how it was shown to (and demonstrated on) me.  Sure as hell didn't feel like a flaw.


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## MattJ (Mar 17, 2010)

FWIW, I do remember hearing that Mr. Parker had intentionally designed some absurd/impractical elements into kenpo training. I can't find any direct links to Mr Parker mentioning that, though. The closest I could find was this:

http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/origin_of_american_kenpo.htmhttp://www.americankenpo.com/dedication.html



> Not only was the student to learn the "why" of the move, but by simplifying the techniques, Ed believed his new system could be tailored to the individual who would perfect it according to his own physical size and athletic ability. American Kenpo forms were taught with hidden meaning so only the perspicacious would see what was intended. The system was designed to lead the student through tangled and obscure paths, where the instructor was to point out the meaning of each twist or turn. Then, when it all came together, the student--the Ed Parker black belt--was to emerge from the darkness into the light of new understanding. The black belt would only need to know about 100 applications of his new system, as Ed believed his understanding of the "why" of the movement would replace all of the "techniques" of other Kenpo systems.


 
I'm taking this with a grain of salt until I can find some direct proof that Mr Parker actually meant this.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

MattJ said:


> FWIW, I do remember hearing that Mr. Parker had intentionally designed some absurd/impractical elements into kenpo training. I can't find any direct links to Mr Parker mentioning that, though. The closest I could find was this:
> 
> http://www.sanjosekenpo.com/origin_of_american_kenpo.htm
> 
> ...


 

Yeah, I don't see anything in there that indicated he actually deliberately inserted flaws in order to mislead the less intelligent, and to "test" his top students. 

I will say this, however: there is plenty in the kenpo that I study that quite honestly I would never be able to use for real. There is also material that I personally feel might not be realistic. There is also material that I feel is flawed for various reasons. I will never argue with someone who feels this way, because ultimately the method comes down to the individual, and how well he can use what he has.

Could a better understanding on my part eliminate some of these problems that I see? Probably. But I still think some of it could be done away with and it would be to the betterment of the system.

But that is still a far cry from the claim that Mr. Parker deliberately inserted flawed material. I think that any system will have some material that could be considered suspect. That doesn't mean somebody deliberately tried to mislead anyone.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Blindside said:


> So you are doing a thrust, then the downward rake? That is different than several AK lineages than I have seen, which just do the downward rake.


 
can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?


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## Blindside (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?


 
Nope, thats why I was asked the question in the first place.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Nope, thats why I was asked the question in the first place.


 
ah, gotcha.

Has Ted Sumner come up and worked with your group on occasion?


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## Blindside (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> ah, gotcha.
> 
> Has Ted Sumner come up and worked with your group on occasion?


 
Not to my knowledge. We were and are a bit of an orphan lineage, we're off the Tracy line with inputs from several AK sources later. We are mostly doing our own thing, there really wasn't a whole lot of other Tracy folks around Wyoming.    Since I've moved to Washington I hooked up with an even more muttish Kenpo group (with major roots in Tracy), but have been spending most of my time on my Kali training group.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Not to my knowledge. We were and are a bit of an orphan lineage, we're off the Tracy line with inputs from several AK sources later. We are mostly doing our own thing, there really wasn't a whole lot of other Tracy folks around Wyoming.  Since I've moved to Washington I hooked up with an even more muttish Kenpo group (with major roots in Tracy), but have been spending most of my time on my Kali training group.


 
Ah, ok.  I know Ted had gone up somewhere to work with a group, thought it might have been yours.  Guess not, tho.

Anyway, Ted is a strong source of info when it comes to the specifics of application in the Tracy techs and what can be extrapolated from the forms if it's not a specific tech.  I've been studying under him for over three years now, he's helped clarify a whole lot of stuff for me.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?


You are dropping as a result of covering at that angle, a thrust would then have its own natural dropping motion; so, you aren't raking down, but dropping which creates a raking motion.
Sean


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> It's simply a useful technique against a high attack. It could be a punch to the face or a grab at the hair on top of the head, or something like that. Step in and drop into stance while clearing the attack with a rising block. Fire the eaglebeak fist in with the kuckle horizontal so that you strike between the ribs. Rake the kuckle down across the ribs explosively and with strong pressure. Have someone try that on you so you see what it feels like. It hurts, and it causes you to pull away and even collapse downward somewhat.
> 
> This is my view from the Tracy perspective. We don't do a lot of the categorization and theorizing and whatnot that it seems people from other lineages do. To us, this is just a useful defensive combo.
> 
> But, the notion that Mr. Parker built intentional flaws into the material is silly and is not true. It's a silly idea to begin with and I'd hope that a minimal amount of critical thinking would see it as such. And, Doc has directly said as much. I think a lot of people don't realize what they are doing with the movements, and they chalk it up to some deliberate flaw engineered in by Mr. Parker. It's nonsense to think that is what happened.



"I don't know what I'm doing so it must be a flawed form or technique." Sounds like something a white belt would say to make excuses for what they don't know. Now the scary part is, the high ranking people that use that same line. You're right on the money Mike, and even though you are not a Parker Kenpo Karate student, your explanation of the move functionally makes more sense than the stuff some others have "dreamed" up, and is amazingly close to what Ed Parker taught me. Common sense is a ***** isn't it.


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## Doc (Mar 17, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah, ok.  I know Ted had gone up somewhere to work with a group, thought it might have been yours.  Guess not, tho.
> 
> Anyway, Ted is a strong source of info when it comes to the specifics of application in the Tracy techs and what can be extrapolated from the forms if it's not a specific tech.  I've been studying under him for over three years now, he's helped clarify a whole lot of stuff for me.



Had dinner with Ted friday night. Great guy.


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## punisher73 (Mar 18, 2010)

Flying Crane wrote: 





> can you give me a description of how these other lineages feel the application is meant to work?


 


Blindside said:


> Nope, thats why I was asked the question in the first place.


 
Many lineages suggest the usage of the downward middle knuckle strike as "nipping the tip" (also called that in Infinite Insights Vol 5).  Some employ is almost as a knuckle whip to the scrotum area.  It is not taught as a punch at all.

Note:  I am NOT saying I agree with this application or that it is THE application, just responding on what I have seen others teach it as.


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## Kyoshi (Mar 18, 2010)

Guys - Stick to the topic please....

What do you guys focus on, when doing short2, what theory is behind it?
(im rather in need for some kenpo-injections, since my regular training is cancelled tonight!!)


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## Flying Crane (Mar 18, 2010)

Kyoshi said:


> Guys - Stick to the topic please....
> 
> What do you guys focus on, when doing short2, what theory is behind it?
> (im rather in need for some kenpo-injections, since my regular training is cancelled tonight!!)


 
I believe we have been absolutely on topic.  We've had a few people from different lineages give input regarding a particular section of the form.  We've discussed and given different examples of how that particular section might be used, and what can be learned from it.  How much more "on topic" can we get?  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I'll give you what my take is, in what we are doing with kenpo kata, whether it's Short Two or any of the others.  Again, this is from the perspective of my understanding, coming from training in the Tracy lineage.  I get the feeling that there may be fundamental differences in how Tracy people view this kind of thing, compared to other lineages, so I won't be surprised if other people see it differently.  I also am speaking strictly about Kenpo kata here, vs. kata or forms as they are practiced in other systems.  I believe kenpo kata may have been constructed somewhat differently than how other systems built their kata, and this has an effect on what it is you are doing and how you do it.

What are we doing with kenpo kata?  We are practicing our options, and learning to flow from one to another while maintaining the integrity of the methods.

Hopefully, the fundamentals have been established and are understood.  What I mean by this is, how the stances work, how one uses the stances as a foundation for delivering techniques like a punch or a block, how torque and pivot and stance changes are used to deliver these techniques, how a proper punch or other hand strike is delivered, how a proper kick is delivered, how to step thru to the next stance, etc.  These things are, hopefully, already established within the basics.

These things are then put together in the kata, whether it's a basics kata like Short One and Long One, or a "technique" kata like Long Three or Long Four.  Either way, no matter which kata you are doing, you should be executing every single movement or combination of movements, with the foundation intact.  On a basics kata like Long one, every step, every block, every punch, every cover, every shift, you should be maintaining proper stances, and executing the techniques with proper delivery.  On a Techniques kata like Long Three, you are executing SD techs that you probably have already learned as stand-alone material.  Each of these techniques within the kata, should likewise be executed with proper foundation and delivery.  Just because it is strung together into a kata doesn't mean you get lazy and just "get thru" the kata.  

My White Crane sigung expresses it very clearly, and I think it applies in kenpo as well: The kata itself does not matter.  The kata is just a sequence, like a dance.  By itself as a unit, it is meaningless.  However, every single movement within the kata matters and is important.  Every single movement must be done correctly, or it is worthless.  So, just "getting thru" the kata is a waste of time.  Wanting to learn another kata to "get thru" the material for the next belt test, is a waste of time.  Blazing thru the kata as if your pants are on fire, is a waste of time.  You need to slow down and pay attention to everything.  If you don't take the time to do every movement within the kata correctly, with proper foundation and delivery, then you are just dancing.  Quality is far far more important than speed.  Take a look thru Youtube and tell me how much speed you see, in kenpo videos.

So, getting back to Short Two.  From the Tracy perspective, we are doing a series of useful self defense applications.  Some of these are contained within our curriculum as named, stand-alone SD techs.  Much of this form is not such, but it is still very clearly applicable as such.  We are learning to move and execute these techniques, and flow from one to the next.  But if you let your foundation and delivery get sloppy, then you aren't learning anything from it.


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