# Question about a Grand Master



## BillK (Feb 6, 2016)

I have been looking into Hapkido the past few days as there is a training center near by. I know there are a lot of "McDojos" out there, so I wanted to ask those that have been around Hapkido awhile about the validity of the place I am looking into. The place I am considering is A W New Hapkido in Ft. Wayne Indiana. Their head instructor is Anthony New 6th degree black belt. His instructor is Grand Master J. R. West. Anyone have any insight into Grand Master West or Master New? Thanks in advance. 
A W New Hapkido Academy


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 7, 2016)

It is difficult for me to make any judgement from the website.  If he has been there for 17 years he at least knows how to keep getting students.

I noted he has a lot of women and girl students.  In my experience that is not the norm for Hapkido, for reasons I have never understood.  That could mean he is an exceptional teacher, or that he deviates from traditional Hapkido.  And he could still be teaching a wothwhile martial art with some amount of Hapkido.

I notice he offers a free class.  You might consider visiting and if it looks interesting, take a free class also.  If it all works for you, that is, what he teaches looks right, the teaching is positive, you are able to learn, try it further.

One thing I didn't notice was a fee schedule.  I never agreed with contracts by year, or until reaching black belt.


----------



## Andrew Green (Feb 7, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> One thing I didn't notice was a fee schedule.  I never agreed with contracts by year, or until reaching black belt.



12 month memberships are pretty standard in a lot of places and rather important once a school reaches a certain size.  There should probably be a shorter trial option, or maybe a higher priced option for a shorter term and adequate escape clauses... but if you refuse places based on just that you'll miss out on a lot of really good places.


----------



## BillK (Feb 7, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> It is difficult for me to make any judgement from the website.  If he has been there for 17 years he at least knows how to keep getting students.
> 
> I noted he has a lot of women and girl students.  In my experience that is not the norm for Hapkido, for reasons I have never understood.  That could mean he is an exceptional teacher, or that he deviates from traditional Hapkido.  And he could still be teaching a wothwhile martial art with some amount of Hapkido.
> 
> ...


I noticed the same things as you. I called Friday and spoke with a very friendly woman who invited me to attend a free class Tuesday. I askes her about cost, but didn't ask about contracts. Cost is about $90 a month, which seems about right.


----------



## BillK (Feb 7, 2016)

Andrew Green said:


> 12 month memberships are pretty standard in a lot of places and rather important once a school reaches a certain size.  There should probably be a shorter trial option, or maybe a higher priced option for a shorter term and adequate escape clauses... but if you refuse places based on just that you'll miss out on a lot of really good places.


There actually is a short trial period. Their "try Hapkido" is $200 for 3 months and a free uniform. Classes 3 days a week, one hour each class.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 7, 2016)

BillK said:


> There actually is a short trial period. Their "try Hapkido" is $200 for 3 months and a free uniform. Classes 3 days a week, one hour each class.


That's actually not a bad deal at all. A little under $70 a month and no obligation to stay longer. If after the free class you are genuinely interested and it works with your schedule, it might be worth trying. Looking into G. R. West, nothing seems fishy, and he apears to be the head of a legitimate hapkido orgnaization. For anyone who knows more about Hapkido, his lineage appears to be Choi Young Sool-->Kim Jung Soo-->JR West-->Anthony New.
I don't see any major red flags, which is rare, but as I don't live in the area, nor do I know hapkido, I can't really give any direct more advice.


----------



## BillK (Feb 8, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> That's actually not a bad deal at all. A little under $70 a month and no obligation to stay longer. If after the free class you are genuinely interested and it works with your schedule, it might be worth trying. Looking into G. R. West, nothing seems fishy, and he apears to be the head of a legitimate hapkido orgnaization. For anyone who knows more about Hapkido, his lineage appears to be Choi Young Sool-->Kim Jung Soo-->JR West-->Anthony New.
> I don't see any major red flags, which is rare, but as I don't live in the area, nor do I know hapkido, I can't really give any direct more advice.


I didn't think it seemed like a bad deal either. Saw a video on YouTube that just doesn't sit well with me. I'll post it separately.


----------



## BillK (Feb 8, 2016)

HHere's a video from the Dojang I was looking into. Any thoughts? I have a few, but I'd like to see what y'all think first. I only watched about 15 minutes of it.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 8, 2016)

90 dollars a month?
is that common in the us? here no one would pay this. every martial arts school or club, no matter what style, takes about 30 euros, lets say about 40 us-dollars, a month. many even less.

btw: kids with black belts? i fear, thats indeed a mcdojo-sign...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> 90 dollars a month?
> is that common in the us? here no one would pay this. every martial arts school or club, no matter what style, takes about 30 euros, lets say about 40 us-dollars, a month. many even less.
> 
> btw: kids with black belts? i fear, thats indeed a mcdojo-sign...


Where I live, $90 a month is pretty cheap. Agree about the kid black belt


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> btw: kids with black belts? i fear, thats indeed a mcdojo-sign...


Why do you say that?

Although all association and arts are different, generally a black belt does not mean yo are skilled, it merely means you are capable of performing the basics.  

Becoming skilled takes many more years of training of course, but I see no reason why a child who has trained for a number of years cannot be competent at the basics.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 8, 2016)

capable of performing the basics means yellow belt in my opinion.
one shouldn't give black belts to kids. it might give them a false and therefore dangerous feeling of superiority. even many adult blackbelts have that. just my opinion, but if someone can reach a black belt after about 2 years of training or whatever these kids have, its not a good art/style/school.


----------



## Andrew Green (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> 90 dollars a month?
> is that common in the us? here no one would pay this. every martial arts school or club, no matter what style, takes about 30 euros, lets say about 40 us-dollars, a month. many even less.



That's on the low side for a full time school.



> btw: kids with black belts? i fear, thats indeed a mcdojo-sign...



All depends on what the black belt means in that school.  In a lot of schools it is still considered a beginner grade. (Shoran basically mean "Beginning grade")


----------



## Andrew Green (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> capable of performing the basics means yellow belt in my opinion.
> one shouldn't give black belts to kids. it might give them a false and therefore dangerous feeling of superiority. even many adult blackbelts have that. just my opinion, but if someone can reach a black belt after about 2 years of training or whatever these kids have, its not a good art/style/school.



Considering Shodan is considered a beginner grade I don't think that is true at all.  Japan started the system, and people get to Shodan in 2 years all the time over there and it wouldn't be considered odd from everything I've heard.  If your school considers it a "expert" rank and gives it after 2 years then you probably got a lack of depth in your system.  But if it's considered completion of the beginner curriculum, it's not so bad and I'd question why it would take 5-10 years.  A black belt rank means a lot of different things in different places, no one way is superior.  I'd say how good a student is after 5 years is more a measure of how good the school is, regardless of whether they are 2nd dan or brown belt.  I'd also say the school that can keep the most students that long is doing something better too.  

I'm not really sure why people get so caught up in comparing rank to time spent training.  I think a much more interesting thing to look at is skill and depth of knowledge compared to time spent training. 

I'd also think percentage of students that reach a given skill level is more important.  Let's say school A and B both starts with 10 students each.  3 years later School A has 1 Blue belt and school B has 5 black belts, all have the same skill level, just different ranks.  Which is the better school?

Do whatever you want with belts, just produce good students.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2016)

BillK said:


> HHere's a video from the Dojang I was looking into. Any thoughts? I have a few, but I'd like to see what y'all think first. I only watched about 15 minutes of it.


I watched most of it. I would have liked to see actual instruction rather than demos. That said ... I was not tremendously impressed. I'm not a Hapkido guy, but I've seen much better demonstrations of the art.

Most of the black belts did not look to be very skilled at what they were doing. The weapons forms were mediocre baton twirling routines by someone who apparently had no idea of how to actually use the weapon.  Even the joint locks which are central to Hapkido were poorly done for the most part. Most of the black belts demonstrating the joint locks were walking through the choreography without regard to the details that are necessary to make those techniques work effectively.

The head instructor may be qualified in the art, but based on the video it doesn't look like he does a good job of teaching his students the nuances of the art or holding them to high technical standards.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 8, 2016)

@Andrew Green good point. but i think, it doesn't look good for a school, if their black belts aren't very skilled, since the belt color has an other meaning to them.
i personally don't give to much on belt colors, since some students train like maniacs and are fast as good as the ones with dark belts, as you said with your school a/b example.
but when it looks like they throw belts around for the ones who pay good, i'd be suspicious.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 8, 2016)

BillK said:


> HHere's a video from the Dojang I was looking into. Any thoughts? I have a few, but I'd like to see what y'all think first. I only watched about 15 minutes of it.



I only skimmed through this video and watched bits here and there, on account of it being an hour long, but I have some thoughts, too.

To start off with, on the plus side, I'm pretty sure this New guy, or at least his teacher, does know HKD.  A lot of the unarmed hoshinsul techniques I saw them  doing - or trying to do - were very similar to a lot of the ones I know, and the knife disarms were the exactly the same.  (Those kind of knife disarms are unrealistic, but traditional.)

As to the students.... I think the adults/teens were a mixed bag.  Some of their hoshinsul looked okay, some not so much. Some of them had good striking (edit: not that I saw much demonstrated anyway), some of them seemed uncertain and didn't have power.  For the sparring, considering it's HKD, I was surprised that they weren't going to the ground at all or even doing sweeps, but at least I got the impression that they had some sparring experience.  I wasn't impressed that they were having adult black belts punching and side kicking through a 1/2" board.

The kids, on the other hand, oy.  They were visibly struggling to remember their hoshinsul techniques, and clearly didn't understand the principles behind them.  E.g., I'm pretty sure I saw an armbar being done below the elbow with the arm bent. Their sparring was bad, and their bo work was mushy.  Teaching Hapkido to young kids seems like a really tough thing to do, but if you're going to do, then do it, don't just pass the kids through.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2016)

BillK said:


> HHere's a video from the Dojang I was looking into. Any thoughts? I have a few, but I'd like to see what y'all think first. I only watched about 15 minutes of it.


I'm going to be a little less forgiving than Tony. Like Tony I wasn't impressed with the demo which was more of an entertainment performance than any showing of real application.
There were a lot of warnings signs that I saw, which would cause me not to go to a school like this.

Kids looked afraid of the weapons
Black belts losing weapons
Lack of focus on doing the form shown by constantly looking at each other to see where the next person is in the form.
Meaningless movements (this could be me not understanding the application as I do not train in the system" The reason I say this is because the movements that are done with energy and purpose are usually the ones that have purpose.  The movements that look weak without purpose are usually just that, without purpose. Specifically the crane posture at at the 18:53 mark and the "shoo fly" technique at the 18:55 mark.
The sparring was fairly bad too.  
A lot of the times you only need to see how well someone does the basics to know if you should be training there.  If they fail on the basics then there's no way they'll be able to do anything of quality at an advanced level.   

My personal opinion would be to find another school if you want to be a good representation of the martial art that you are training in.  If you are just looking for exercise and you don't care that your technique, form, and basics look horrible then you can go to this school.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm going to be a little less forgiving than Tony.


I was trying to be as... _diplomatic_ as possible without leading the OP astray.  I think we're pretty much in agreement about the quality of what was being demonstrated.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes - as you said you not a Hapkidoist.  WaterGal - you do study some Hapkido.  I am so dismayed at both your reviews of another Hapkido School.  Most sadly, I have to agree with pretty much all of it.  Maybe it is just the Hapkido I learned.  We didn't do things that way.  It was an effective art, and a little vicious.  It was intended to protect oneself.  Hapkido requires a lot of practice as some moves are a little intricate (edit:  but most of ours were very conservative of movement), but done correctly are very effective.

I will say that many moves cannot be done quickly unless the training partner know what is coming so s/he can move into it without sustaining injury, or the person performing the technique has to stop before injury occurs.  But it really looked more like to me that there was a lot of confusion on how to do some of the techniques.  The woman on the chair is a case in point.  I would not try to stop a side snap kick by trying to absorb the kick with my arm.  Maybe there is something else she was supposed to do along with it.  I would have preferred an arm cross block with follow up.  Her way to get out of a choke-head-lock (or whatever it was) was not the way I would do it, but that may just the school wishing to use different techniques.  There are many after all.

WaterGal - why does your school teach ineffective knife defense?  Knife defense must be learned very carefully, but if done so, can be effective and protect you as well.  Side steps and deflection with grapple, or catching a knife or sword (especially downward strikes) at the top of the arc when there is no power.  Do you only teach that at higher levels?

Anyway, I do agree with you both that it didn't look as good as it probably should have.  Even some of the break falls looked a little dangerous, but maybe not, since nobody broke anything but the fall.

Even all that said, some of the practitioners did seem to know what they were doing, and do moves effectively.  So I still recommend the OP visit and watch, and take at least one practice session.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 8, 2016)

Not my cup of tea.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I was trying to be as... _diplomatic_ as possible without leading the OP astray.  I think we're pretty much in agreement about the quality of what was being demonstrated.


You're just a nice and respectful person in this forum and I can tell you try to be diplomatic lol.  And yes we are pretty much in agreement about the quality.  Like always you were more gentle with your feedback.  I probably wouldn't have been as direct if I hadn't watched the entire video as well as additional videos that the school had,  but it really did go from bad to worse. The weapons dropping seems to be common. I'm assuming that they are the light extreme martial arts weapons as I would think that someone would be afraid of letting a real weapon fly from their hands and hurting someone else.





By the way I'm not Hapkido bashing.  This is just an observation on the school in question.  I've seen better Hapkido that looked more consistent with how a person may try to approach a fight. There's an intensity of focus that fighters and those who train real self defense have, that doesn't show in these videos.  I just think that there are always 2 groups of martial arts.  One groups that use it for entertainment and the other group that use it to actually learn how to fight and defend themselves.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Tony Dismukes - as you said you not a Hapkidoist. WaterGal - you do study some Hapkido. I am so dismayed at both your reviews of another Hapkido School. Most sadly, I have to agree with pretty much all of it. Maybe it is just the Hapkido I learned. We didn't do things that way. It was an effective art, and a little vicious.


I've been in martial arts long enough that I can generally recognize whether someone is good at what they're doing, even if it's not what I do. I've seen plenty of Hapkido practitioners who are clearly excellent martial artists. Unfortunately, I didn't really see any of that in this video.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 8, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> WaterGal - why does your school teach ineffective knife defense?  Knife defense must be learned very carefully, but if done so, can be effective and protect you as well.  Side steps and deflection with grapple, or catching a knife or sword (especially downward strikes) at the top of the arc when there is no power.  Do you only teach that at higher levels?.



I think that these kind of traditional Hapkido knife defenses are _fundamentally _ineffective, because they don't reflect how attackers actually use knives.  They won't try to stab by standing barely within arm distance and making some huge slow dramatic downward stab towards your head.  If they did, yes, that technique where you catch it at the top of the arc might work. But in real life, a criminal will come in very close and shallowly stab you a bunch of times.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> I think that these kind of traditional Hapkido knife defenses are _fundamentally _ineffective, because they don't reflect how attackers actually use knives.  They won't try to stab by standing barely within arm distance and making some huge slow dramatic downward stab towards your head.  If they did, yes, that technique where you catch it at the top of the arc might work. But in real life, a criminal will come in very close and shallowly stab you a bunch of times.


I wonder if some of those traditional techniques are in the context of wearing armor.


----------



## WaterGal (Feb 8, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wonder if some of those traditional techniques are in the context of wearing armor.



That's a good point.  I'd never thought of that.  Also, weapons have changed over the years, so I wonder if how people use them may also have changed.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 8, 2016)

that knife defense is a general problem in traditional styles.
the only method that gives one a small chance to get out of a knife attack, which mostly is repetitive straight stabbing from a close distance, comes from the modern system krav maga. forearm-block with simultanously devastating strike just to interrupt the repetitive stabbing of a maniac. then one could theoretically have the chance for a wristlock alá hapkido, karate and the like. theoretically.

but even blocks of straight punches are unrealistic. if all that would work, they'd do it in boxing and mma the same way.
but one can't judge particular schools for this criteria.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2016)

WaterGal said:


> That's a good point.  I'd never thought of that.  Also, weapons have changed over the years, so I wonder if how people use them may also have changed.


One of our students is Chinese and he's always reminding us that some of the techniques and recommendations are in the context of using weapons and armor.  I know with some of the knife defenses I can understand doing if I wore the leather wrist brace that is often seen in Hung Gar.  If I was walking around in a world of knives and swords, that would definitely be part of my normal wear.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> that knife defense is a general problem in traditional styles.
> the only method that gives one a small chance to get out of a knife attack, which mostly is repetitive straight stabbing from a close distance, comes from the modern system krav maga. forearm-block with simultanously devastating strike just to interrupt the repetitive stabbing of a maniac. then one could theoretically have the chance for a wristlock alá hapkido, karate and the like. theoretically.
> 
> but even blocks of straight punches are unrealistic. if all that would work, they'd do it in boxing and mma the same way.
> but one can't judge particular schools for this criteria.




There are more systems then Krav, and many of them are blade based systems.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 8, 2016)

show me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> that knife defense is a general problem in traditional styles.
> the only method that gives one a small chance to get out of a knife attack, which mostly is repetitive straight stabbing from a close distance, comes from the modern system krav maga. forearm-block with simultanously devastating strike just to interrupt the repetitive stabbing of a maniac. then one could theoretically have the chance for a wristlock alá hapkido, karate and the like. theoretically.
> 
> but even blocks of straight punches are unrealistic. if all that would work, they'd do it in boxing and mma the same way.
> but one can't judge particular schools for this criteria.


If the technique is done in the context of wearing armor,  say a light chain mail, then the repetitive stabbing of a maniac isn't going to get the job done especially if the knife isn't design for attacking someone with chain mail, hence the reason why some daggers are shaped the way they are long, thin, and pointy.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 8, 2016)

but whom of us or the hapkido students is wearing this?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 8, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> but whom of us or the hapkido students is wearing this?


No body, but that doesn't mean that the technique is useless.  It may be that the technique needs to be put into the context of not wearing armor and tweaked from there.   But that's only depending if the technique was originally created for someone wearing armor.  Most people who have a knife are like most people who fight.  There's not going to be a lot of advance attacking techniques being deployed.  I'm pretty sure you can take the basic slash and stab motions that a knife defense deals with and find similarities with knife defenses that work fairly well.  Sort of like how we all may punch differently but we can tell when the punching mechanics are off, or how the defense of that punch is not realistic based on what we know to work.  Some of the knife defense that I see in Krav Maga is the same knife defense that I see in other martial art systems.


----------



## Kframe (Feb 8, 2016)

I live in the same Town as this School. Fort Wayne is both blessed and Cursed.  We have a plethora of martial arts available. Especially Traditional art. . This place is hopping and bopping, and sadly if you want that kind of art, it is the only place around. At least they spar.  I to was not impressed with the video the students did not look like they were ready for their belts. From what I understand those Extravaganza's are more shows put on for the audience then anything else.  I have asked about this teacher before, A SUPER long time ago and got told that they didn't know much about him but his teacher was legit.

 I took the intro class and what I did was just basic punching and then some real basic self defense.

I am glad I am not the only one that was less then enthused about the way they looked in that video.  Now there are TONS of Karate here in the Fort.  However, NONE of them Do bunkai of the forms. I watched their class's and I asked their instructors.. The only place I have not checked out is the Robert Bowles Shuri Ryu place. I know nothing about that style other then the founder is thought to have just made up his own karate style. At least by some karate people I have read on other forums.

The C.S.Kim Karate place is a Korean Karate variant. They have TONS of forms but yet again, don't do anything even approximating bunkai till blackbelt. Then all it is, is adding a partner to the solo form and only doing the obvious stuff. Its their Pyung Ahn One Step Sparring.  The following videos show a tiny bit of it.  As you can see, that is the extent of that orgs depth of forms exploration. Not a lot of stuff there you would see from Ian Abernathy or any of the other esteemed bunkai advocates.











So when it comes to Traditional Martial arts in the fort wayne area, not much to go with.  As I have been searching for years for a good traditional place.  There is a 2nd Dan WTF/KKW Tkd instructor at SudnImpact Gym.  He was on the National team and teaches there. They also have a separate coach for kickboxing and regular boxing as well as  separate coach for No Gi Grappling.  Them and the  5th Dan at Cunninghams Taekwondo seam to be the only decent TMA in the fort.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 8, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've been in martial arts long enough that I can generally recognize whether someone is good at what they're doing, even if it's not what I do. I've seen plenty of Hapkido practitioners who are clearly excellent martial artists. Unfortunately, I didn't really see any of that in this video.



Yes sir, I agree and apologize.  I should know better than to try to post a wry comment when at work and very busy.  I missed putting in the emoticon, and just generally didn't pull it off.  I very much respect your knowledge and how you state your views.  And I agree with your assessment of the video.



WaterGal said:


> I think that these kind of traditional Hapkido knife defenses are _fundamentally _ineffective, because they don't reflect how attackers actually use knives.  They won't try to stab by standing barely within arm distance and making some huge slow dramatic downward stab towards your head.  If they did, yes, that technique where you catch it at the top of the arc might work. But in real life, a criminal will come in very close and shallowly stab you a bunch of times.



WaterGal - What I said to Tony Dismukes is true for you as well.  My apologies for trying to post when I couldn't give sufficient attention to it.

As to knife defense, I think the attack you describe would be from a person with few knife skills.  Not that that type of attack couldn't hurt you, but that sounds more like a one trick pony.  That said, knife defense is a dangerous matter and not to be taken on without much practice.

Again, my apologies to you both for not expressing myself better.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Yes sir, I agree and apologize.  I should know better than to try to post a wry comment when at work and very busy.  I missed putting in the emoticon, and just generally didn't pull it off.  I very much respect your knowledge and how you state your views.  And I agree with your assessment of the video.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No apology necessary. I was just making clear to anyone else who might not know me that I have no animus towards Hapkido in general. I just wouldn't want to recommend that particular school to anyone who was interested in the art.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 9, 2016)

no skill needed to kill with a knife. also hapkido isn't that old that it must have created or adapted techniques from a time people wore armors.
here i found a video which totally agrees with my opinion.




and in krav videos you see it realistically since the students are just overrung from the partner who plays the attacker. no one could grab the knife holding hand before the knife hits or could hold the grip when the attacker pulls back that hand and stabs the next time. traditionalists should admit it.


----------



## BillK (Feb 9, 2016)

Thanks for all the input! It seems the general consensus is like my own; not impressed at all! I've studied-to use the Korean name-Jool Bong for a while and see no reason why a black belt should drop them, unless it's a new technique that is being learned. All in all, it all just seemed like no one really knew what they were doing. It was sloppy, many techniques were poorly done (or at least it looked like it to me, I don't know much about HKD), and very McDojo-ish. I have decided to stay away from them. I have been in discussion with a Kung Fu school in Indianapolis (about 2 hours from me) to train privately in Seven Star Preying Mantis. Which Kung Fu is what I want, I was just trying to avoid the drive so was looking at this dojang. I'll post a video of the Sifu in Indy in Chinese arts section. Thanks again to everyone!


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 9, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> show me.


Look up FMA's (Kali), systema, and silat all focus on this and have kinfe defense that is as effective as krav maga (would argue how effective any of it is in general, however). Additionally I believe Kajukenbo is supposed to have realistic knife defense, and in theory any good rbsd program should have effective knife defense.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 9, 2016)

Kframe said:


> They also have a separate coach for kickboxing and regular boxing as well as separate coach for No Gi Grappling.


I like the sound of this as it's not realistic to expect one instructor to be well versed in multiple systems that differ so much.  It's just better to bring in expertise in that area than trying to have one person teach it all.


MAfreak said:


> no skill needed to kill with a knife. also hapkido isn't that old that it must have created or adapted techniques from a time people wore armors.
> here i found a video which totally agrees with my opinion.
> 
> 
> ...


if you are train in a traditional martial art that users hands then you'll need to do gripping exercises.  the sole purpose of these exercises is to build the hand speed accuracy and the gripping power of the hand. .If you don't build up grip strength then you aren't going to be able to hold on.  second not every knife fighting situation is an all out stabbing frenzy. You can go to live leak and actually see real video footage of people getting stabbed and defending against knife attacks.  I've seen videos of people stabbed in the heart and it wasn't a frenzy of stabbing.  I've seen people fight with knives exactly the way that your videos say doesn't happen.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 9, 2016)

sorry, i really have to say it is ridiculous how you all defend against the reality that traditional styles won't prepare of real knife attacks. if ever a style could do so. even with speed and grip strenght. sure one should first train it like that to get the basics of blocking and wrist locking. but anyway. find a suicidal aikido-guy who trains this all the time, dress him like an israeli and put him to the gaza strip. you'd see what happens.




at 2:18 its exaclty what i mean. if you tell me, with traditional knife defense training you could defend it, you're lying to yourself. and now "dislike" my comment, like many people do with unpleasent truth.


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 9, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> and in krav videos you see it realistically



Traditional knife defence isn’t designed for the realities of modern knife crime. A trained samurai isn’t going to attack another samurai on the battlefield in the same way that a criminal will shank you from behind in the street.  Nor is a criminal going to be using an 11” Tanto, as he can’t conceal it in his pocket.  He will be using a pocket knife or Stanley knife.

Therefore I wouldn’t expect TMA to look like modern knife defence.  This is not a problem, if you are practicing a traditional art and know that is what you are doing that’s fine.  The problems only start when you practice a traditional art but think you are preparing yourself for the realities of modern civilian knife crime. 

I do not believe anyone has to modern knife attacks (if there were we would all be doing)  and I certainly don’t believe the answer lies with “realistic” krav knife defence.  The second most ridiculous martial arts technique I have ever seen is a Krav knife defence.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 9, 2016)

i totally agree with what you wrote. its the same i was trying to say all the time.
to the video: holding a knife for threatening isn't an stabbing or slashing attack.


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 9, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> i totally agree with what you wrote. its the same i was trying to say all the time.
> to the video: holding a knife for threatening isn't an stabbing or slashing attack.


Of course, but the point is also there is just as much nonsense in Krav as there is any other art, traditional or modern.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 9, 2016)

sadly.  every style or school has its weaknesses. thats why one should think outside the box and learn what others do differently. it might be more effective (or crap).


----------



## Rich Parsons (Feb 9, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> show me.



That move you described will not work on me. That much energy would direct me to a different location and you would be cut. 
And is your "Show Me" a challenge as that is not allowed on this site. 

If it is show me here in words you might not get my meaning. 

But your point that ONLY KRAV has the counter that might work is a false.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 9, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> sorry, i really have to say it is ridiculous how you all defend against the reality that traditional styles won't prepare of real knife attacks. if ever a style could do so. even with speed and grip strenght. sure one should first train it like that to get the basics of blocking and wrist locking. but anyway. find a suicidal aikido-guy who trains this all the time, dress him like an israeli and put him to the gaza strip. you'd see what happens.
> 
> at 2:18 its exaclty what i mean. if you tell me, with traditional knife defense training you could defend it, you're lying to yourself. and now "dislike" my comment, like many people do with unpleasent truth.



Thing is, despite the silly claims you make, many people (including me) have somehow managed to defend ourselves against a knife with traditional training.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Feb 10, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> capable of performing the basics means yellow belt in my opinion.



There are basics and there are basics.



MAfreak said:


> one shouldn't give black belts to kids. it might give them a false and therefore dangerous feeling of superiority. even many adult blackbelts have that. just my opinion, but



There are black belts for children and there are junior black bets for children. No instructor awarding a junior black belt to a child should expect the child to to be able to beat up adults.



MAfreak said:


> but even blocks of straight punches are unrealistic.



Blocks work fine when they are trained properly.



MAfreak said:


> if all that would work, they'd do it in boxing and mma the same way.



There are plenty of things that are effective that are not done in boxing and MMA. As far as I know there is no MMA statistic in an MMA fight on blocking effectiveness. They also tend to get punched a lot so that's not really an argument against blocking. Also, for the record, there is some blocking in boxing and MMA, it is just not their primary form of defense.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 10, 2016)

Defending against a knife doesn't mean not getting stabbed.  The goal of traditional martial art knife defense is to prevent from becoming a human pin cushion.  People that I know who teach knife techniques do it from the perspective that the defender will get cut or stabbed.  If you can stop it without getting cut then great.  If not then the next best thing is to minimize the damage and prevent repetitive stabbing.  That is what knife defense is.

When it comes to defending against a knife you can either wing it and hope for the best or use techniques that are based on how people stab.  Not everyone does rapid knife thrusts.  Not every knife attacker sneaks up on the victim in stealth mode.  To assume that someone is going to attack you with a knife and rapid stab you and there's nothing you can do about it other than just take the stabbings and die, is a stupid approach to self-defense. 

Knife attacker caught on tape.  Notice downward stab motion that he's using and not the prison shank motion





another person with a knife.  Once again no prison stabbing method





Another video.  Guy being stabbed is actually able to knock the knife away. Notice he was also able grab and hold on to the stabbing hand. Once again no prison shank motion


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 10, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Traditional knife defence isn’t designed for the realities of modern knife crime. A trained samurai isn’t going to attack another samurai on the battlefield in the same way that a criminal will shank you from behind in the street.  Nor is a criminal going to be using an 11” Tanto, as he can’t conceal it in his pocket.  He will be using a pocket knife or Stanley knife.
> 
> Therefore I wouldn’t expect TMA to look like modern knife defence.  This is not a problem, if you are practicing a traditional art and know that is what you are doing that’s fine.  The problems only start when you practice a traditional art but think you are preparing yourself for the realities of modern civilian knife crime.
> 
> I do not believe anyone has to modern knife attacks (if there were we would all be doing)  and I certainly don’t believe the answer lies with “realistic” krav knife defence.  The second most ridiculous martial arts technique I have ever seen is a Krav knife defence.


#1 rule of knife defense is never to grab the blade.   That defense would be a big fail in my book.  You can actually see that she's bending the blade of the practice knife.  Had it been a real knife she would be cutting her own hand, and she would be cutting the very tendons needed to grab.  Had the guy quickly withdrawn his hand she would have been stabbed, without any opportunity to defend herself.  The only people who grabbed blades were those who had some kind of hand protection that guards against the slicing of a blade.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 11, 2016)

m





JowGaWolf said:


> #1 rule of knife defense is never to grab the blade.   That defense would be a big fail in my book.  You can actually see that she's bending the blade of the practice knife.  Had it been a real knife she would be cutting her own hand, and she would be cutting the very tendons needed to grab.  Had the guy quickly withdrawn his hand she would have been stabbed, without any opportunity to defend herself.  The only people who grabbed blades were those who had some kind of hand protection that guards against the slicing of a blade.



I noted that too.  Grabbing the blade is a bad move.  But sometimes there may be no choice.  It just shouldn't be the planned defense move as you said.  Still, we had a civilian in Korea years ago who nearly lost a couple of fingers doing that.  But he and his wife were fighting 3 or 4 people who broke into their home, so it may have been one of those instinctive things that prevented him from being stabbed.  Interestingly, they weren't otherwise severely injured as I recall, and the ferocity of their defense was such that it drove away the suddenly very confused and dismayed attackers.  Amusing in a way.  The wife got out to the living room first and began to attack them.  She told them to leave because her husband was coming out and he was mean.  She didn't lie.

I might suggest a couple of things for people to consider.  If you see someone approaching you with a knife and you expect a 'prison shank attack,' remember they have to approach you more closely as a rule, which isn't always a good way to use a weapon that is supposed to allow some separation.  You might be able to take out a knee cap with a fast and strong kick.  You might also be able to drop forward even with their lead foot, on the same side as the lead foot, then if it is their right leg, make contact with their ankle/shin with your left ankle/shin, and hook kick the back of their knee, driving them to the ground.  Hook your ankles together and begin rolling forward (the attacker's forward) rolling over several times.  It will take out his knee in a very painful way.

Those techniques are easier to demonstrate than describe.  But even if I were to show you those, or any of several other knife defenses, defending against a knife is something that must be practiced often until you gain real, instinctive reaction timing and ability.  Then you must keep practicing, and keep practicing, and keep practicing.  Taking on a knife attacker is dangerous.  You need to be good, and fast, and fearless.  And you must be prepared for the fact that no matter how good you are, the knife bearer may have some ability as well, and you may be cut or stabbed.  And you must be prepared for the fact that if that happens, you must keep resisting fiercely.  There are no do-overs or king's X'es.


----------



## MAfreak (Feb 12, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Thing is, despite the silly claims you make, many people (including me) have somehow managed to defend ourselves against a knife with traditional training.



so the attacker stretched his knive-holding arm and stood still so you could do whatever you want to him, like it is trained in traditional styles?
nearly everyone in the modern world admits it. but not you... crazy...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 12, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> so the attacker stretched his knive-holding arm and stood still so you could do whatever you want to him, like it is trained in traditional styles?
> nearly everyone in the modern world admits it. but not you... crazy...


If you are going to show Traditional Martial Art knife defense at least show a good representation of Traditional Martial Art knife defense.  That video was made with sarcasm that can clearly be seen at 0:21.
Here's what a real knife fight looks like when 2 people with knives are fighting each other.  According to the video that you showed at 0:40 these guys in the street are just fantasy.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 12, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> so the attacker stretched his knive-holding arm and stood still so you could do whatever you want to him, like it is trained in traditional styles?
> nearly everyone in the modern world admits it. but not you... crazy...



You don't know anything about how I, or most other, martial artists train, obviously.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> sorry, i really have to say it is ridiculous how you all defend against the reality that traditional styles won't prepare of real knife attacks. if ever a style could do so. even with speed and grip strenght. sure one should first train it like that to get the basics of blocking and wrist locking. but anyway. find a suicidal aikido-guy who trains this all the time, dress him like an israeli and put him to the gaza strip. you'd see what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, TMA defenses can work with actual attacks. Certainly not 100% (nothing will do that). But that attack at 2:18 isn't exactly a sneak attack. He's obviously going for the first victim from several steps away, and his stabs are large arm movements, with the victim held at a distance. 

You seem to be under the mistaken impression that all TMA knife defenses require that you grab a wrist and apply a lock. Those exist, so we know what to do if we end up with a wrist in our grasp and the lock is available, but the blocks, off-balancing, strikes, and movement are the real defense from the attack. The rest is just a way to finish the attack (disarm or disable) if the finish presents itself.

I'll also add that nothing I've seen of Krav Maga is new to the world. KM is a solid system (when taught well, as with anything else), but it's not brand new. Those moves - every one of them - exist elsewhere. I do wish more TMA would pick up the attitude I see among good KM practitioners, with a strong focus on realism.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 12, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> so the attacker stretched his knive-holding arm and stood still so you could do whatever you want to him, like it is trained in traditional styles?
> nearly everyone in the modern world admits it. but not you... crazy...


You might see that when a student is learning the technique, but not with an experienced student. What you say "is trained in traditional styles" would be like someone saying "like that ridiculous grabbing the knife thing that's trained in Krav Maga." Neither would be an accurate representation of what is not an homogeneous group.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Feb 12, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> You don't know anything about how I, or most other, martial artists train, obviously.


Well I definitely don't train like that Reality Fantasy videos.  lol.
When my school trains knife defense we don't train it from the perspective of how an attacker would stab someone. We actually try to stab our training partner with the practice knife. Most people think "grab the knife first" but in reality you can do a lot of things to defend yourself without grabbing the knife. The stabbing hand can be parried or kicked. You can still punch the guy in his face, knees, legs, sweep.  The stabbing distance is shorter than the kicking distance.  If you can keep this distance then there's no need to let the attacker get close enough just so you can try to grab a knife.  I know some of you people may think I'm full of it and that it's just fantasy thinking so here's a real life example.





The one thing that I learned while doing knife training is that as an attacker I'm not holding the knife as securely as it feels.  Pointy end of knife pointing up or straight left me open for punches and kicks when I tried to stab. Pointy end down took way the kicks and the forward stab.  Even if I didn't drop the knife when someone kicked me in my hand, the kick was hard enough to hurt my hand.  Even when the kick wasn't full power it still landed with enough force to hurt and sometimes knock the knife out of my hand.  I learned as an attacker that I was so focused on stabbing that I basically left everything else open.  A hard punch to the face would have definitely stunned me or at the very least disorient me enough to stop trying to stab for a short period of time.  It's like regular street fights where the guy gets punched in his face and it causes a delay in the next punch that he was going to throw. Sometimes a good punch in the face causes the person to curl up to avoid what they think will be another punch to the face. In the class when the punch hit my face, my mind immediately went from stabbing to protecting my face.

As a defender Half-moon kicks land harder than what it feels like I'm kicking.  My arm couldn't hold back the impact of kick to the bottom of my hand.  It's possible to use one hand to try to block the knife hooking in with an extended arm and the other hand to punch the face.  

The one thing I never did in a knife defense class was curl up in a ball and lay on the ground.  I moved really fast because sometime during the training you forget that it's a practice knife and not the real thing.

There was nothing I could do with the sneak attack stabs except for stop trusting everyone in the room and made sure that no one could get in my space lol.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Feb 16, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> so the attacker stretched his knive-holding arm and stood still so you could do whatever you want to him, like it is trained in traditional styles?


In other words you have no idea how traditional martial arts train knife defenses but think they are wrong anyway.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Feb 16, 2016)

MAfreak said:


>


At 0:11 in your video is basically the same technique as the technique in the following video at 9:03:






And at 0:04 in my video:






There are similar techniques in many different styles.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Feb 16, 2016)

Rich Parsons said:


> And is your "Show Me" a challenge as that is not allowed on this site.


Maybe in Missouri?


----------



## RTKDCMB (Feb 16, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> t 2:18 its exaclty what i mean. if you tell me, with traditional knife defense training you could defend it, you're lying to yourself. and now "dislike" my comment, like many people do with unpleasent truth.


Do you know what a loaded question is?


----------



## oftheherd1 (Feb 17, 2016)

MAfreak said:


> sorry, i really have to say it is ridiculous how you all defend against the reality that traditional styles won't prepare of real knife attacks. if ever a style could do so. even with speed and grip strenght. sure one should first train it like that to get the basics of blocking and wrist locking. but anyway. find a suicidal aikido-guy who trains this all the time, dress him like an israeli and put him to the gaza strip. you'd see what happens.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So if I understand you, if you cannot successfully defend against a sucker punch, your art is no good?  What you describe is at 2:18 is essentially that.  But do you think if one trains oneself to always be alert to their surroundings they might have a better chance to defend?  And do you consider that a person might train themselves to be better at knife attack than an untrained person who isn't paying attention to their surroundings being able to defend?  If you watch the video, I submit there was time to react if the victim was trained to do so.

BTW, just so I can better evaluate your point of view, what is your art and what is your rank in it?  You may have mentioned it before and I missed it, but please tell me.


----------



## RTKDCMB (Feb 18, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> The second most ridiculous martial arts technique I have ever seen is a Krav knife defence.


I have seen worse.


----------

