# What's everyones thoughts on........



## Full Circle (Jan 17, 2008)

collapsible batons.  I think the baton would have less problems than other weapons in a court of law, but how effective are they?   I have someone willing to teach me, but said it has been 15 years since he has used one.   He said I might want to get a good video to go along with what he teaches me.  That way, I can see any new tactics that have come out.  What would be a good up to date video?  

Thanks Guys!


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## diamondbar1971 (Jan 17, 2008)

I still carry a Kubatan-Kubotan-kuboton (its spelled several different way) to this very day. I just recently discovered that it can't be taken on board commercial planes.  I was
invited to be a referee and they absolutely refused to let me take it even with all of my ID and credentials in order etc. They did let the Captain put my bag with the Kubaton in it in the cabin with the crew. I think this Homeland Security has gone overboard on a lot of things and this might be a good forum to start..But be careful the baton can and does break.Unless the attacker is armed with a gun, just pull out a can of good old whup *** and put it to um.


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## SensibleManiac (Jan 17, 2008)

Always be careful what you buy, the cheap stuff will break especially if when it's for real.
A friend of mine hacked a tree branch with his once and it completely broke apart.


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## still learning (Jan 17, 2008)

Hello, A friend in California had one..use it on a big guy....NO effects.  He sold it to someone else (car fight).

Look into you state laws regarding carrying weapons?  Better to carry a bible with "IRON COVER". ...and pointed edges...UM?

Aloha ( C battery Mag lite-6C's long)......Flashlites are legal to carry all over the world.)


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## Cruentus (Jan 17, 2008)

Full Circle said:


> collapsible batons.  I think the baton would have less problems than other weapons in a court of law, but how effective are they?   I have someone willing to teach me, but said it has been 15 years since he has used one.   He said I might want to get a good video to go along with what he teaches me.  That way, I can see any new tactics that have come out.  What would be a good up to date video?
> 
> Thanks Guys!



Depends on the law of your state. In my state, Collapsible batons are considered an illegal weapon for civilians. At that point, your better off using a knife that you can legally carry rather then something illegal.

So it depends on the legalities. They are nice if they are legal, in that they don't have to be used as a tool of lethal force depending on how it is used.


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## MJS (Jan 17, 2008)

Full Circle said:


> collapsible batons. I think the baton would have less problems than other weapons in a court of law, but how effective are they? I have someone willing to teach me, but said it has been 15 years since he has used one. He said I might want to get a good video to go along with what he teaches me. That way, I can see any new tactics that have come out. What would be a good up to date video?
> 
> Thanks Guys!


 
Cruentus took the words out of my mouth.   I'd definately check with your local LE agency before buying one.  IMO, I do think that they are an effective tool though. 

Mike


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## Guardian (Jan 18, 2008)

*Batons are definately a handy tool to have, but as stated, check your State for being legal or not, I would venture to say most states they are illegal for civilians, but then again, so is murder, rape, assaults and such.*

*G*


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## Drac (Jan 18, 2008)

MJS said:


> Cruentus took the words out of my mouth.  I'd definately check with your local LE agency before buying one. IMO, I do think that they are an effective tool though.
> 
> Mike


 
Ditto...I carry and teach the expandable batons...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 18, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> Depends on the law of your state. In my state, Collapsible batons are considered an illegal weapon for civilians. At that point, your better off using a knife that you can legally carry rather then something illegal.
> 
> So it depends on the legalities. They are nice if they are legal, in that they don't have to be used as a tool of lethal force depending on how it is used.


 
You can of course have a collapsible baton on your property in your state Cruentus.  So for home defense it would be an option. (though it really limits what you can do)  However, Cruentus points out *how important* it is to know the law in your area and what you can and cannot do.  *This is incredibly important!*


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## Full Circle (Jan 18, 2008)

Gotcha, check with law enforcement first!  Never gave it any thought that these would be illegal, as for the most part, are a non lethal tool.


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2008)

I've only ever gotten cheap ones and shockingly enough they've been disappointing. I should try a good one sometime.


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## Drac (Jan 18, 2008)

arnisador said:


> I've only ever gotten cheap ones and shockingly enough they've been disappointing. I should try a good one sometime.


 
Look into a *Monadnock AutoLock*..One of the best in my opinion and I have trained with EVERY version out there....


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## Cruentus (Jan 18, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You can of course have a collapsible baton on your property in your state Cruentus.  So for home defense it would be an option. (though it really limits what you can do)  However, Cruentus points out *how important* it is to know the law in your area and what you can and cannot do.  *This is incredibly important!*



Seems pretty useless to me though in my home, where I have so many other choices.


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## Cruentus (Jan 18, 2008)

Full Circle said:


> Gotcha, check with law enforcement first!  Never gave it any thought that these would be illegal, as for the most part, are a non lethal tool.



Depends on how it is used. It could be considered a lethal tool if you crack someone upside the head repeatedly...


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## tellner (Jan 18, 2008)

In this State can carry one openly but not concealed. Given that I'd rather have a good sap.


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## Jdokan (Jan 18, 2008)

diamondbar1971 said:


> I still carry a Kubatan-Kubotan-kuboton (its spelled several different way) to this very day. *I just recently discovered that it can't be taken on board commercial planes*.


 
Isn't it crazy?? because you can take a pen of similar structure that is just as deadly....(and it writes how cool!!)
Use it as a weapon...when done and the attacker is writhing on the ground you throw the "weapon" into the gutter nad it becomes just another "lost pen"....HMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!


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## chinto (Jan 21, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> diamondbar1971 said:
> 
> 
> > I still carry a Kubatan-Kubotan-kuboton (its spelled several different way) to this very day. *I just recently discovered that it can't be taken on board commercial planes*. quote]
> ...


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## Zero (Jan 28, 2008)

tellner said:


> _*In this State can carry one openly but not concealed. Given that I'd rather have a good sap*._


 
Yeah but Bob Sap would be hard as hell to conceal and you'd most likely break your back trying to lug him around - and some would say he wouldn't be much help in a SD situation unless he sat on the crook...


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## Drac (Jan 28, 2008)

Jdokan said:


> I use a walking staff if I am worried about any kind of problems.. hard to out law a walking stick or cane or staff..


 
Yep thanks to the ADA...The walking staff may raise a few eyebrows, but they never said squat about the Combat Cane I carry once its been
x-rayed and shown that it is not a sword  or anything else...


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## Drac (Jan 28, 2008)

tellner said:


> In this State can carry one openly but not concealed. Given that I'd rather have a good sap.


 
I hear ya..The department outlawed us carrying saps on duty, I miss mine..


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## Drac (Jan 28, 2008)

diamondbar1971 said:


> I still carry a Kubatan-Kubotan-kuboton (its spelled several different way) to this very day. I just recently discovered that it can't be taken on board commercial planes. I was
> invited to be a referee and they absolutely refused to let me take it even with all of my ID and credentials in order etc. They did let the Captain put my bag with the Kubaton in it in the cabin with the crew. I think this Homeland Security has gone overboard on a lot of things and this might be a good forum to start


 
The no no on the Kubotans has been in effect here pre 9/11.. I got into it with one of those rent-a-cops that use to screen luggage when I tried to take mine through..I was just meeting someone as they deplane..Remember when you could do that??? The way around that is to pick up a ProTek key www.pps-selfdefense.com Its a great tool and it fits your hand better than the Kubotan..If questioned I tell them its the key to my gun locker at the department...


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## Bigshadow (Jan 28, 2008)

I carry a kubotan daily.  I have even went through security at the courthouse with it.  Although, that isn't saying a whole lot.


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## tradrockrat (Jan 29, 2008)

When I was working with collapsible batons, the key was to continue the strike through the target and recover the strike after a full range of motion.  If we stopped our strike or attempted to reverse motion immediately after a strike the baton tended to collapse back on itself.  Especially on a hard target like a carpet wrapped log.  So the order of the day was "Nothing fancy" - just crush what you hit and set up for another strike.

One very inevitable result of this was the decision to train attacks on extremities as a full on strike to the head would in all likelihood kill the bad guy or cause severe brain damage.  This wasn't really a problem as we were working with law enforcement and they already had that standing policy.

Oh yeah - and as stated before - you get what you pay for so get the best one you can.


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## akonpittbull (Jul 2, 2010)

I think kobotans are the best weapon in the small hidden weapon category. Basically this is the great think according to me that we can use the pen size weapon any where any time where we want to use. It is not officially declared as a harmful weapon so we can use it.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 2, 2010)

Full Circle said:


> collapsible batons. I think the baton would have less problems than other weapons in a court of law, but how effective are they? I have someone willing to teach me, but said it has been 15 years since he has used one. He said I might want to get a good video to go along with what he teaches me. That way, I can see any new tactics that have come out. What would be a good up to date video?
> 
> Thanks Guys!


 
I like collapsible batons, I have a 31" baton on my duty belt.  Their effectiveness depends on how extensively you wish to train with them.  Unlike some weapons, they do require some level of proficiency to use effectively.

As for videos,I would suggest checking out the Dog Brothers for a realistic view of how to use a stick in a confrontation.  

http://www.dogbrothers.com/

Also, Sayoc Kali has put out a pretty good video on Stick Grappling. 

http://sayocglobal.com/store/product_info.php?cPath=24&products_id=152

http://www.sayoc.com/?video=1

And another excellent source on source on using the stick as a grappling tool is a classic from Gene Lebell......

http://www.genelebell.com/product-16.html


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 3, 2010)

Drac said:


> Look into a *Monadnock AutoLock*..One of the best in my opinion and I have trained with EVERY version out there....


 

I carried an Autolock for quite some time, but the mechanism ultimately broke, after considerable use, however.

Now I carry a 31" ASP with a Monadnock retention cap in a Monadnock pivot holster.

I should point out that if someone is going to carry one concealed, the 31" may be a bit long. I'd recommend a 26" or a 21"........i'd recommend no smaller than 21".


The length of the baton is going to effective target areas. 21" or less and I recommend targeting the hands and arms as primary target zones, as an attempt to attack the legs will put most folks in range of getting punched. One is going to be able to generate considerable less power with a shorter baton, so the strikes against heavy muscle groups may be ineffective. In that event, one should target small bone groups, such as the bony areas of the hands and elbows.

That is why I like the 31", as I can strike the upper and lower legs without ever being in punching range, and the extended length and weight gives considerably more power to the strikes.

One very much wants to learn how to generate power of one is going to use a Baton.  A baton is an impact weapon, and power more important than technique.  Without power all the technique in the world won't help with an impact weapon.


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## Balrog (Jul 4, 2010)

diamondbar1971 said:


> I still carry a Kubatan-Kubotan-kuboton (its spelled several different way) to this very day. I just recently discovered that it can't be taken on board commercial planes.  I was
> invited to be a referee and they absolutely refused to let me take it even with all of my ID and credentials in order etc. They did let the Captain put my bag with the Kubaton in it in the cabin with the crew. I think this Homeland Security has gone overboard on a lot of things and this might be a good forum to start..But be careful the baton can and does break.Unless the attacker is armed with a gun, just pull out a can of good old whup *** and put it to um.


I've run into that problem as well.  Simply replace the actual kubotan with a small flashlight.  It will do everything the kubotan will do, plus having the advantage of shedding light in dark places, and it waltzes right past the jokers at the x-ray machine.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 4, 2010)

Balrog said:


> I've run into that problem as well. Simply replace the actual kubotan with a small flashlight. It will do everything the kubotan will do, plus having the advantage of shedding light in dark places, and it waltzes right past the jokers at the x-ray machine.


 
If that won't work, a couple rolls of quarters in one pocket and a spare pair socks in the other.


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## Laus (Jul 5, 2010)

> I think the baton would have less problems than other weapons in a court of law.


 
Aggravated assault is aggravated assault. A jury might go easier on someone with a baton as oppossed to a gun, but legally the crime is the same no matter what the weapon is (in Canada at least...you'd have to check your state laws on that one). Though if you ever did have to use it in self-defense, one would hope you wouldn't be charged anyway.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 5, 2010)

Laus said:


> Aggravated assault is aggravated assault. A jury might go easier on someone with a baton as oppossed to a gun, but legally the crime is the same no matter what the weapon is (in Canada at least...you'd have to check your state laws on that one). Though if you ever did have to use it in self-defense, one would hope you wouldn't be charged anyway.


 
Actually, no, a baton may or may not be lethal force, depending on how it is used......shooting someone with a firearm is ALWAYS lethal force.

So if you're not justified in using LETHAL force, a gun is not the choice.......but a baton may be.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Jul 7, 2010)

I perfer my Maglight, I used to carry one on a hammer holder when I delivered pizza's. It's a trick I learned from my Step Dads biker friends, who used to that, or carry a ball pin hammer the same way.


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## Laus (Jul 8, 2010)

> Actually, no, a baton may or may not be lethal force, depending on how it is used


 
Eh...sleeping on my feet. Assault with a weapon, I should have said. Though you could certainly get to aggravated with a baton.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 8, 2010)

Laus said:


> Eh...sleeping on my feet. Assault with a weapon, I should have said. Though you could certainly get to aggravated with a baton.


 
That's true, but the difference between a firearm and a baton is that you can injure to degree with a baton........going all the way from a leverage technique that causes no injury, up to lethal force.

With a firearm, it's either used as a lethal weapon or it isn't.......there's no degree injury to a firearm, it's all or nothing.

Of course when the situation calls for lethal force, anything but a gun is a poor substitute........but it's a hammer, and some situations call for more subtlety.


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