# Favorite/Hated thing/s about Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu



## Kalifallen (Nov 4, 2004)

Is there anything that you like or don't like about the art? What?

I personally enjoy the variety. Don't really like how they don't teach everything (where's all the water training, survival training, etc?).


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 4, 2004)

Keep training! :ultracool


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## jibran (Nov 4, 2004)

Kali, I think that all of the skills are not taught immediately because some have a grounding in others (ie. Everything is built upon taijutsu).


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## Elizium (Nov 9, 2004)

If you ask questions about training and what you hate about it... then why are you training in the first place in something you do not like?


As for water training ETC, go to the local pool and swim.  Survival.... Join the Marines.  I await the next idiotic question in the shadows.:whip:


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## Cryozombie (Nov 9, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> If you ask questions about training and what you hate about it... then why are you training in the first place in something you do not like?


 I dunno... there are things I hate about my training, but there are more things I like about it than hate.

 I think, in most aspects of life, we find things we hate in the things we love to do... I love Rollercoasters, I hate Lines... I love Rock Climbing, I hate the shoes... I love my Ninjutsu training, but I hate the seated Kata that I am doing... 

 The Enjoyment I get from the first part of all of those outweighs the little things I hate.


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## Don Roley (Nov 9, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> If you ask questions about training and what you hate about it... then why are you training in the first place in something you do not like?



Tricky question. I think that if you hate something as a whole, you should not be doing it. But I know a guy who hates to get up early who will wake up before 5 am in order to get to the ski area in time. It is kind of like the cost you get for something better.

In my case, I had a senior student to me go over my basics here in Japan. The basics I had gotten in America was off by the standards here, and so this guy took me aside and showed me the ropes. It was not fun at all. Every little mistake was pulled out and my nose was rubbed in it. The guy had the bed- side manner of Attila the Hun. But I learned. There were nights I was shaking in frustration as I went home after those sessions, but I started practicing what I was shown as soon as I got back. I was tempted to quit, but almost immediatly got angry at myself for even considering stopping just because I was not good enough. So, through a combination of stupidity and stubborness, I kept on and I think I got better.

I still try to work out with that senior student whenever I can- even though he will not let me do a technique if there is even a small flaw in it. It is frustrating, which I hate. But when I can get the move to work it means there are no mistakes in it. I could just go off and practice on my own, start my own style and convince myself that I am so good I don't need any more corrections or instruction from others. I might be the first to do so.   But I would rather go through the frustration than wallow in self- deciet. I am just selfish that way.


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2004)

From what I have gotten out of my Aiki/shinto training, Japanese philosophy is full of the "suffering increases strength" theme. this is not just physical suffering, but mental and spiritual as well. which sometimes, outweigh the physical by a couple hundred pounds.

basically, the stuff you hate makes the stuff you like better. and the stuff you hate now, is the fundamental core to what you will like doing later.


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## Peaceful Tiger (Nov 9, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> If you ask questions about training and what you hate about it... then why are you training in the first place in something you do not like?
> 
> 
> As for water training ETC, go to the local pool and swim. Survival.... Join the Marines. I await the next idiotic question in the shadows.:whip:


If you're going to accuse my good friend Kali of posting idiotic questions then please have the courtesy to fully read them first. 

We all have things in ninjutsu that we like and don't like so much, it's just the way of things. You shouldn't be expected to love everything about training. No doubt even a person of your high moral stature must have things about training that you like or don't like, or maybe that's a little presumtious of me to even assume that of you, or maybe even idiotic?

...And by the way, accusing people of making idiotic posts is not a good way to make friends on a forum. It's people like you that make training that much harder for the rest of us.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 9, 2004)

*Mod. Note. 
    Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

    -Technopunk
    -MT Moderator-*


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## Peaceful Tiger (Nov 9, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> *Mod. Note. *
> *Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.*
> 
> *-Technopunk*
> *-MT Moderator-*


Sorry Techno, although I don't think accusing people of making idiotic posts is in any way respectful, do you?

I must say that I am getting pretty fed up reading posts where my pal Kalifallen is being continually flamed and nothing seems to be getting done about it.


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## Shogun (Nov 9, 2004)

Hey, I thought you were peaceful. JK.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 9, 2004)

Peaceful Tiger said:
			
		

> Sorry Techno, although I don't think accusing people of making idiotic posts is in any way respectful, do you?
> 
> I must say that I am getting pretty fed up reading posts where my pal Kalifallen is being continually flamed and nothing seems to be getting done about it.


  Peaceful Tiger, 

  That was a general warning to remind everyone in the thread to be Polite, it was not just directed at you.


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## Peaceful Tiger (Nov 9, 2004)

Duly noted, again my apologies


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 10, 2004)

This has nothing to do with ninjutsu, but I for one am not too enamored with daisho sabaki techniques. Just doesn't seem very logical to punch someone in the face if both him and I are wearing swords in our belts.:idunno: (As a side note - if one assumes that a shoto or tanto is more suitable for fighting indoors than a katana, suddenly it doesn't seem to be very much of a peace sign to put down your daito when entering someone else's house...)

And yes, I know, we're training concepts of movements and not techniques. But it still feels a little awkward.:lookie:


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 10, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> From what I have gotten out of my Aiki/shinto training, Japanese philosophy is full of the "suffering increases strength" theme. this is not just physical suffering, but mental and spiritual as well. which sometimes, outweigh the physical by a couple hundred pounds.
> 
> basically, the stuff you hate makes the stuff you like better. and the stuff you hate now, is the fundamental core to what you will like doing later.


lol !!

I think I like that entire post. That "hardship increasing constitution" concept though, hate to break it you is not isolated to Japanese philosophy, look at buddhism and other aescetic systems for examples. But in getting back around to the thread topic, I couldn't agree with you more Shogun!!


So moving along.....
In relation to ninjutsu though, I love the kujikiri, I even love the stretches and pre-kujikiri warm ups.

I dig that ninjutsu has the philosophy it does ( which is a whole new thread altogether) and I love the alt. fighting means it incorperates ( as in throw sand in someones eyes and slip around the back while they're temporarily blinded and roll your way outta there. _THAT _is a comically effective classic!!! HOw do you _not_ appreciate that!!?? lol..........

I am and always will be a small chick weighing usually 45-47 kgs . Ninjutsu was developed as a small mans art for the av farmer type against the typically massive samurai. One of many perfect arts for my build.
I also love it's grappling and find it far more kick *** ( can I say that on these boards) than many other grappling styles, as in it's techs have means to really get the job done( like snapping a head from a spine just to be clear,......or breaking a finger in a trigger) allowing for lesser variations in the process. I _like_ knowing it's there if necc.( not that I'd use it , but it's comforting right??????? ( blushes) )

Oh and the climbing techs..........like that too as a  point of fitness interest 

Don't like..........errrmm.....aahhhhh......let you know when I discover it 


and everyone else???

Blooming Lotus


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 10, 2004)

This should be good...perhaps there was some use to stickys after all...



			
				Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> 5) Video games, fiction books, movies are not Ninjutsu. If you come off sounding as if you just walked out of one, don't be surprised when no one takes you seriously.


:rtfm:


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 10, 2004)

you know , that sounds like it's being addressed to me and all I'm saying on your quote regardless is that I don't guess you've spent much time travelling the back streets China recently ha.  You'd be surprised what you see and use in the "real " world.


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## Peaceful Tiger (Nov 10, 2004)

Don't worry too much about it lotus, there's not a lot of support on these boards, just too many people who are too eager to have a nasty dig at others.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 10, 2004)

I for one feel like I'm doing someone a disservice by supporting an erroneous perspective on things...but that's me, again.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 10, 2004)

Guys... (and laides) Lets stick to the topic at hand, while this is a thread about opinions, lets express them politely... Thanks.


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## heretic888 (Nov 10, 2004)

> Ninjutsu was developed as a small mans art for the av farmer type against the typically massive samurai.



I think this was what Nimravus was referring to. That, and the kuji-kiri.  :supcool:


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 10, 2004)

Cheers Peaceful Tiger but this _is_ a forum and occassionally you'll get that stuff.

Nimravus : Granted I have only read about ninjutsu history from only several different sources and disscussed it for only a yr ish with other historians and long time practioners, but if you have another version yourself, I'd be happy to talk to you about it on another thread. 

But getting back to the topic at hand , the kuji kiri is a great meditational tool , however you adapt it and I stand by my comment. I love many aspects of it.

And yourself Nimravus?? Likes and dislikes??


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 10, 2004)

Another thing I dislike is when people's main sources of reference are questionable 80's books...


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

at least they try to provide _something_ Mr. Nirvamus, as opposed to just politely berate and debase other ppl .

BTW chinese chin na cop-babe ( who confirmed what other practioners of 8 + yrs have also reiterated ) has been studying and in that force where they require the eastern history studies ( particularly pertaining to wars and combat systems they might encounter) to be mastered and updated regularly . In light of the fact that all I've heard from yourself is series of "_No it's nots!!!" _...for now , I think I'm just going to go with the information I have . 


btw , I tried to comment on your profile , but A. apparently I don't have enough points (     ) and B. I couldn't find the prompt ..........

meiguanxi, here is fine.......  Found that dislike I told you I'd get back to on, when someone rides in on their high horse calling foul and claiming their own expertise but won't share their own information. How do you support that kind of opposition nor change your stance ????  :idunno: 

Blooming Lotus


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## Don Roley (Nov 11, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Found that dislike I told you I'd get back to on, when someone rides in on their high horse calling foul and claiming their own expertise but won't share their own information. How do you support that kind of opposition nor change your stance ????  :idunno:
> 
> Blooming Lotus



I believe that the first step in gaining knowledge is understanding what you do not know. Once you know that you don't know something, then you can go out and find the real answer.

So, I do not think there has to be any new answers to replace the ones that are shot down. Knowing that there is a question mark and we may not really know what went on 500 years ago is _much_ better IMO than trying to come up with a theory that may be equally untrue.

Also, I am not fond of your way of stating things as fact. I have trouble with you using a source for your statments someone none of us can access. Not only is it a "appeal to authority" type of logical fallacy, but we give people like Sojobow hell over his reference to sources that no one else seems able to find. In addition, I have seen people try to use me as a source even though their memory of what I said was extremely off. It is much better if you stick to sources that other people can go and see for themselves.

If you stated your theory as your own, then that in itself is enough for us to talk about. But when you build up this Chinese Chi Na player as an expert, it seems like you are trying to take the high ground in intellectual one- upmanship. You see the problems I have with that?

I would like to welcome you to the ninjutsu section of martialtalk and hope that we can discuss things in a friendly manner. You strike me as quite enthusiastic and should be a vauable member here if we manage to avoid getting off on the wrong foot with each other.


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## finalheartz (Nov 24, 2004)

Elizium said:
			
		

> If you ask questions about training and what you hate about it... then why are you training in the first place in something you do not like?
> 
> 
> As for water training ETC, go to the local pool and swim. Survival.... Join the Marines. I await the next idiotic question in the shadows.:whip:


Maybe you dun get wad he means, There are many hidden techniques in Ninjutsu that people dun get to learn, instructors themselves maybe? Ninjutsu is not just martial arts, its the purity of mind and body/spiritual defense. Water training might mean Meditation in water to allow Ninjas to be able to breath in water for longer time( traditionally explained like this if im not wrong ).. our modern time now is different from the olden days.. where spiritual and religious beliefs is "hot".. To what i think.. i think modern ninjutsu of our time now.. is just basically self-defense.. meditation yes.. but not of spiritual powers. I may be talking crap as you do not believe.. but I believe what I believe in.. it's my own personal view..  as for Elizium.. Please do not critisize other's personal view as you do not have the right to do so.. anyway.. what does their own personal views got to do with you?:asian:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 24, 2004)

Trust me, ninjutsu has very little to do with self defense.


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## heretic888 (Nov 24, 2004)

finalheartz said:
			
		

> Please do not critisize other's personal view as you do not have the right to do so..



According to who??


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## Shizen Shigoku (Nov 25, 2004)

*Blooming Lotus: "...all I've heard from yourself is series of 'No it's nots!!!' "*

While I can't say that I agree with anything else said by Blooming Lotus, I do agree with the above.

I see many posts by Nimravus saying what ninjutsu is not. It's like a sculpter chipping away at a hunk of stone, discarding all the pieces that do not belong. But what does the statue actually look like? After we've thrown away everything that ninjutsu isn't, what is left? What is ninjutsu, Nimravus?

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=312209#post312209** "Trust me, ninjutsu has very little to do with self defense."*

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311659#post311659** "You can be the most skilled practitioner of bodily techniques in the world, that does not automatically qualify you to teach ninjutsu any more than it qualifies you to teach physics."*

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311114#post311114** "That's assuming he did learn NINJUTSU while in any of the -kans, as opposed to taijutsu and bukiwaza."*

So, ninjutsu does not include taijutsu nor bukiwaza?

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=301637#post301637** "As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information."*

*"I for one practiced the santo tonko no gata for the first time in my life at a weekend seminar approximately four weeks ago, if anyone's interested."*

But the santo tonko kata are not part of ninjutsu, right?

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=301739#post301739** "Ninjutsu is nothing you can practice per se, it has more to do with passing on information."*

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311505#post311505** "Unlike karate, ninjutsu isn't about physical techniques."*

*"I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you were to teach an American version of the concept known in the Japanese language (which is spoken in Japan, funny enough) as ninjutsu, you'd be teaching methods of strategy, surveillance, informations gathering and espionage as done in Langley, for example. NOT a set of physical techniques."*

Ok, so here we have Nimravus's definition of ninjutsu: "strategy, surveillance, informations gathering and espionage" - none of which involve anything physical, nor have much to do with self-defense.

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=306903#post306903** "The following words are among those NOT synonymous with the concept ninjutsu:"* [see list]

I'll help you clarify, since you seem so adverse to do so yourself.

"Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan/To Shin Do/martial science" - are not ninjutsu, but may or may not include ninjutsu in their curriculum.

"Taijutsu/unarmed techniques" - are not ninjutsu, but may be considered part of ninjutsu in the sense that taijutsu is learned as a way to understand ninjutsu.

"Ninpo" - is not the same as ninjutsu, but the terms are related. How about a detailed definition of both, Nimravus?

"Bujutsu" - is not ninjutsu, but ninjutsu is bujutsu.

"Budo" - is not ninjutsu, but ninjutsu can be practiced as a part of budo.

"Shurikenjutsu" - is not ninjutsu, is not necessarily a part of ninjutsu, but is an auxillary practice that may augment you ninjutsu.

"Taihenjutsu" - is an aspect of taijutsu.

*http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=303495#post303495** "I will, as of right now, but I don't practice ninjutsu."*

You train in Bujinkan Budo and haven't learned any ninjutsu yet? I'm sure you'll get to it eventually.

I could go on and on. The point is, Nimravus, I don't necessarily agree nor disagree with what you have written, I only think it would do more to say what ninjutsu is than to say what it is not.

Remember that a lot of people training in the Bujinkan started when everything taught was called ninjutsu, so refering to Budo Taijutsu or Ninpo Taijutsu as Ninjutsu is a hard habit to break.

I still define ninjutsu according to things like the ninja hachimon, the juhappan, the juhakkei, etc.

Yes, taijutsu and ninjutsu are separate things, but one learns ninjutsu in conjunction with taijutsu, so wouldn't taijutsu be considered part of ninjutsu training?

Maybe a distinction needs to be made between ninja training (which includes all of the above), and ninjutsu itself (which is just one part of ninja training). ??

Or maybe it's not so bad to refer to ninja training as ninjutsu. ??

I dunno, Nim, you're the expert apparently - how about you enlighten the inquiring minds?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 25, 2004)

Given all the effort you put in checking up on my writings I find it kind of odd that you somehow missed what I wrote in the "traditional/neo" thread, page 3, post 40.


No, ninjutsu in and of itself is not about taijutsu or bukiwaza.

As for the santo tonko no gata, my point was that they were part of my first exposure to Togakure ryu, the school in which the most of actual ninjutsu has been revealed by Hatsumi sensei, to the best of my knowledge. If it took me that long to be taught some of the taijutsu of Togakure ryu (which does require an understanding of the basics in Koto and Gyokko ryu to be taught, according to what I've been told; note that Koto ryu is not Togakure ryu, but has to be understood for training in Togakure ryu's taijutsu to do the most good), how long do you think it takes to learn things like dressing up as a 16th century Japanese town drunk/beggar/merchant to infiltrate a castle, learn at which points in said castle where the usage of fire does the most damage, how to make poisons and antidote the way it was done 500 years ago etc.?

There are a few things I do know about "actual" ninjutsu, one of them being that it isn't about physical techniques. Another, how to see better in the dark, both of which I've written here on this forum.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 25, 2004)

Boy, do I feel silly...it just occured to me that the aforementioned ankokutoshijutsu has something to do with kamae, which indeed has to do with taijutsu. But still, that's a good example of the fact that there aren't any ninjutsu without taijutsu.


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## Don Roley (Nov 25, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> But still, that's a good example of the fact that there aren't any ninjutsu without taijutsu.



Ok, I think that we are dealing with some crosed wires in communication.

Looking at the above, I think that you are of the opinion is _not only_ about physical techniques and fighting. But the message I have gotten from a lot of what you write is that ninjutsu has _nothing to do_ with fighting or physical techniques.

If you are saying that you need to have taijutsu down before you get into ninjutsu, then I agree. A lot of questionable people talk about inton no jutsu and such without talking about taijutsu and that should IMO set off some alarm bells.

But if you are saying that you can learn ninjutsu without the tonsogata, then I am still confused.

I honestly do not know and I am not sure if it is becasue you may not be a native speaker of English, I am just confused or if the subject is a very subtle one and difficult to talk about. But maybe we can settle this here and see if it is merely a matter of poor communication.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 25, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> But if you are saying that you can learn ninjutsu without the tonsogata, then I am still confused.


Didn't we just agree upon the fact that one's taijutsu has to be perfected before you can dabble into ninjutsu...?


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## heretic888 (Nov 25, 2004)

Interesting discussion, guys. Keep it up.  :asian:


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## Don Roley (Nov 25, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Didn't we just agree upon the fact that one's taijutsu has to be perfected before you can dabble into ninjutsu...?



But take a look at the following statement by you and maybe you will see why I am confused at times over what you are trying to say.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=301637#post301637 "As have been said before, ninjutsu in itself has nothing with physical techniques to do, it deals mainly with strategic concepts regarding the gathering and usage of information."

So if we have to perfect our taijutsu before we dabble in ninjutsu (agreed  :cheers: ) how is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?

Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.

Did that make sense? I have not had my first jolt of caffine for the day.


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## heretic888 (Nov 25, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.



Well, Don, if I may be so bold as to interject here... 

... I would maintain that the distinction you mentioned is not really "splitting hairs". Not at all.

Look at it this way: someone could hypothetically take up the same training in Koto ryu as Mr. Togakure Shinobi Down the Street did, and yet never be exposed to any ninjutsu-specific training. Not even once. At the same time, someone in the military could hypothetically take up the same basic training as Mr. Sniper Up the Alley did, and yet never be exposed to any sniping-specific training. Not even once.

In which case, would it really be accurate to refer to the Koto ryu stylist as a "ninja" or as "studying ninjutsu"?? Would it really be accurate to refer to the basic training soldier as a "sniper" or "studying sniping"??

Just my thoughts, at any rate.  :asian:


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## Don Roley (Nov 25, 2004)

Well heretic, I think we are on the same page. I guess I would say that you go to Basic training if you want to learn to be a sniper. But just because you sweat it out in basic training does not make you a sniper. You have to continue on.

In the same way, I would say that you go to a Bujinkan dojo to learn ninjutsu. But just because you have attended some classes there and seen some stuff from Koto ryu, etc, does not mean that you have learned anything really ninjutsu specific unless you stick it out and get the full picture.

I still have not gotten any coffee yet, so I hope that makes sense.


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## heretic888 (Nov 25, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I still have not gotten any coffee yet, so I hope that makes sense.



Perfect sense.  :ultracool

Happy Thanksgiving, by the way.

Laterz.  :asian:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 26, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> how is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?


Ah, now I think I know where the confusion is. By physical techniques, I meant combat oriented taijutsu. I have practiced the santo tonko no gata and the shinobi gaeshi gata (situations where one is discovered while hiding and starts flinging shuriken and metsubushi at sword wielding adversaries, the classic Togakure ryu style scenario), but I for one do not consider physical methods such as these to be "ninjutsu". I'd rather call it "ninpo taijutsu". But if there's something fundamentally wrong with this point of view, I would be more than happy to stand corrected.:asian:


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## Shizen Shigoku (Nov 26, 2004)

*Nimravus: "Ah, now I think I know where the confusion is. By physical techniques, I meant combat oriented taijutsu."*

Gotcha - very clear now. 

I like Don's analogy too. Brings up my question about whether it is alright to use "ninjutsu" and "ninja training" synonymously.

One may be engaged in ninja training, but not actually be learning or practicing any ninjutsu (according to Nim's definition - btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name). 

However, it is assumed that if they continue on - like the soldier in sniper school that gets past basic training - then they will learn some ninjutsu along the way. Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"

The arts that the Buj' teaches are now referred to as Budo Taijutsu - a very broad term that accurately describes the fact that we learn a broad range of skills. It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't. In the past, though, ninpo was emphasized as the core feeling of the art. Before that, it was all referred to as Ninjutsu as that is what one would ultimately learn; whether they ever get around to any inton, or choho, or bunryaku, etc. they are still learning the building blocks that make up part of ninjutsu training.

That is why I think it is ok (not 100% accurate though) to refer to Bujinkan training as ninjutsu (i.e. ninjutsu = ninja training).

All of the ryu of the Bujinkan are related to ninpo in some way, even just in the sense that they have been taught together through Takamatsu. There are three ryu that specialize in ninjutsu - Togakure, Kumogakure, Gyokkushin; Gyokko and Koto ryu are related, and both serve as auxilery fighting arts to Togakure Ryu, Gyokkushin Ryu is related to Gyokko Ryu, Gyokko Ryu is called a school of ninpo as well. The so-called "samurai" arts of Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin, and Shindenfudo ryu have been passed down together. I think Kukishin has some connection to ninja ryu (if I'm to believe all the rumors I hear) - same with Shindenfudo Ryu. I don't know where Gikan fits in exactly - I'll have to check my sparse notes again on that.

All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing. It all leads to a better understanding and ability to use ninjutsu.

Here's another analogy: I went to college to learn physics and engineering. I had to take classes in English Composition and Mathematics. Would one say while I was taking those classes that I was not learning engineering skills, or even that I was not an engineering student at all?


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## Shizen Shigoku (Nov 26, 2004)

Oh, by the way, this whole discussion on what actually is ninjutsu is one of the favorite and hated things about ninjutsu  - so I think we're still on topic.

My favorite thing is that ninjutsu training teaches so much that it can sometimes be confusing as to what ninjutsu actually is.

The hated thing is that ninjutsu training teaches so much that it can sometimes be confusing as to what ninjutsu actually is.



Another favorite thing is that I can come on these fora and have interesting discussions about ninjutsu and ninjutsu related matters with all of you. For that I am thankfull (I still have so much to be thankful for that I couldn't fit it all into Thangsgiving Day yesterday)!

So thank you all!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 26, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).


As long as you don't spell it Nimh...damned movie destroyed my childhood...:wah:



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"


I honestly don't think so.



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't.


Really? I'm constantly being told the opposite.



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing.


Takagi Oriemon Shigenobu would be rotating in his grave of course...



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Here's another analogy: I went to college to learn physics and engineering. I had to take classes in English Composition and Mathematics. Would one say while I was taking those classes that I was not learning engineering skills, or even that I was not an engineering student at all?


Given the amount of ninjutsu taught in the Bujinkan in comparison with taijutsu and bukiwaza, if that analogy were to be totally correct, you went to college to learn English.:asian:


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## Moko (Nov 26, 2004)

What's this then?

It was 1943?  My Dad was in an elite cavalry regiment on the silver medal team in WWII.  They were withdrawl experts and usually took over dug-in positions and held them while the Div they replaced skedaddled to new positions and dug in.  
He and his #2 were in what must have been an observation trench (as it was on the forward slope) with communications trenches cut to the rear and their horses.  (The horse were just for Transportation.)  He had his MG42 and orders to hold the Russians off as long as possible.  
In the valley in front of him was a big old fieldstone farmhouse with a huge haystack beside it.  Behind the haystack were lots of Russians who meant my father great harm.  Dad had set the sights on the MG slighty off the haystack towards the house and each time a Russian ran to the house he ran into where the bullets were going.  Dad didn't aim at the Russian, he aimed in front of them.  He was a very adept Machine-gunner.  
Soon there was a pile of Russians lying between the haystack and the house and my Dad still wasn't making any buddies.  Suddenly, for no apparent reason Dad ducked down into the trench and pulled his MG after him.  As he ducked he turned and happened to see the "fire" from the tracer that entered his #2's leg.  

What made Dad duck?  Ninjutsu?  That's a Japanese thing isn't it?  Dad was very, very German.  Sakki?  Possible.  He had annoyed enough of the Russians.  (He was in awe of the Russian machine gunner who shot at him as the guy was right on for range and drift.  He figures they were over a klick away, on the ridge opposite the valley with house and haystack.)

I have never figured this one out.  Any help would be cool.  

Robert


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## Don Roley (Nov 26, 2004)

Robert,
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I really do not know how what you wrote has to do with this thread. I know we kind of went form hated and favorite thing, to what we would call ninjutsu training. But I still have trouble making the conection with what you wrote. Can you graph it out for me?

But, it was a cool story. I know a little about the Eastern front battles and have been around when a MG42 cut loose. Sounds like a freaking buzz saw it fires so fast. I did not know much about the use of calvary as covering units for retrograde actions.


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## Moko (Nov 26, 2004)

Thread drift.

Mea culpa.

I've heard an MG 42 also.  Tearing canvas is my description of it.  

That story has always weirded me out.  I didn't understand it and after training in the Bujikan understand less but feel that maybe I should.  Be nice to talk to Dad about it but the long distance would kill me.  Ooo, bad pun.

Maybe just that the Japanese used ninjutsu or ninpo to desscribe a higher level of warfare?  I don't know.  That's why I ask questions and read.  

One day I will write Dad's stories down.  I'll send you a copy.  Or tell you some of them over a brewsky.  They are amazing stuff.  

Robert

PS if anyone else wants to comment on that story go for it in a pm.  I thought it kinda appropriate.  outta here.   Keep up the good work.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 27, 2004)

"Exactly. That's EXACTLY what happened. God came down from heaven and stopped these m-f-ing bullets." :supcool:


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## Shogun (Nov 27, 2004)

> is that you say that ninjutsu in itself has nothing to do with physical techniques? Especially since there is things like inton no jutsu, tonsogata, etc that are physical manifestations of the art?


I may not be very far in training, but Ninjutsu seems like one of the most physically demanding parts of Booj training. since the rest has emphasis on simple motions and all.....



> Let me kind of try to explain how I feel about this. A sniper starts his journey the first day he gets off the bus at basic training. But he does not start SNIPER training until much later. It may be splitting hairs, but to say that you are studying to be a sniper starts long before you actually get into the sniper- specific stuff. In the same way, the physical stuff from Koto ryu, etc, that we learn before we start in on Togakure ryu really can't be divorced from the later training.


Stupid snipers. they should read the policy.


I gots a question. 
if the TSD people that are studying the classical material (I have the tapes) are learning TSD Togakure ryu etc...then wouldnt they be studying "ninjutsu"? I have the Togakure ryu Kihon and a few Shoden dvds myself


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 27, 2004)

If you're learning Togakure ryu ninpo taijutsu, no, you're not necessarily learning ninjutsu.


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## Shogun (Nov 28, 2004)

Well, its not specifically Taijutsu. In the Toshindo Togakure curriculum, SKH teaches some Ninjutsu within the rest of the material, such as Ko ashi. So Togakure ryu ninpo Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, Bojutsu, Shurikenjutsu, Kenjutsu, jujutsu would be more correct way of putting it. I think that is where the confusion is for some, in that Ninjutsu is just a skill set contained within a primary art.

kyle


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## still learning (Nov 28, 2004)

Hello, Is there really an authentic style left anywhere? What is traditional today? What I do not like is the claims some schools make and not just here? about being the true one.


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## Don Roley (Nov 29, 2004)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, Is there really an authentic style left anywhere? What is traditional today? What I do not like is the claims some schools make and not just here? about being the true one.


 :-offtopic 

Still Learning,
You seem to fall into the logical fallicy of believing that since we really cannot know everything, we cannot say _anything_ with any sort of certainty. So you seem to be trying to make the case that we really cannot say that people like Ashida Kim are frauds.

Well, I can tell you with complete certainty that there is no proof in Japan that I have been able to find for Ashida Kim or the other sources on the internet that claim to be ninjutsu outside of the three covered in the traditional ninjutsu section of this board.

I can also tell you that the amount of proof I could pull out to prove that I have been studying martial arts would by quite a lot. And yet people like Ashida Kim who claim to have trained since age 5 in some cases do not seem to be able to do the same.

Oh, and I can speak and read Japanese. I have shown some of the stuff I have seen to native speakers of the language. I know that some of it makes then laugh when they hear hat is supposbaly passed on by a native Japanese speaker.

And even though I was not there for most of the events of history, I can say that I know that a lot of what I read from people like Ashida Kim runs counter to everythign everybody else in Japan is saying.

If you really do not know much, please do not assume that everybody else is as ignorant as you. Some of us have been studying this art, it's history and the language for decades. After all that, we still believe we are open to new things. If you think that you know more than us without going through all that we have, then I consider that a pretty conceited attitude on your part.


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

Hrmmm.... methinks somebody has perhaps read _Postmodernism for Dimwits_ a few too many times. Nihilism is, like, so 90's man.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 29, 2004)

At least it's better than neo-deconstructivism...then we'd REALLY have some flame wars abound.

Anyway there's a very good question to ask to those who claim that one cannot know anything for sure. 

"And how do you know that?" 
:asian:


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I like Don's analogy too. Brings up my question about whether it is alright to use "ninjutsu" and "ninja training" synonymously.
> 
> One may be engaged in ninja training, but not actually be learning or practicing any ninjutsu (according to Nim's definition - btw, is it alright if I call you Nim? Some people take offense at any diminution of their name).
> 
> However, it is assumed that if they continue on - like the soldier in sniper school that gets past basic training - then they will learn some ninjutsu along the way. Would it be alright then to call the overall process of that person's training, "ninjutsu?"



I would disagree with this. If you look in historical treatises about 'ninjutsu', such as the _Bansenshukai_, there is not much mention of combatic taijutsu, kenjutsu, or the like. The skill set seems much more specialized --- focusing on things like disguise, geography, meteorology, how to break into Japanese doors, ways of employing spies, some pharmacology, and so on.

If you want a label for "ninja training", there is stuff like the ninja no hachimon, ninja juhakkei, or even just 'ninpo'. 



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> The arts that the Buj' teaches are now referred to as Budo Taijutsu - a very broad term that accurately describes the fact that we learn a broad range of skills. It used to be called Ninpo Taijutsu - the name changed, but the training essentially hasn't.



"Ninjutsu is really a genuine martial art. That's the one reason I changed the name from ninpo taijutsu to budo taijutsu. They are one and the same."

- Masaaki Hatsumi



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> All of the ryu of the Bujinkan are related to ninpo in some way, even just in the sense that they have been taught together through Takamatsu. There are three ryu that specialize in ninjutsu - Togakure, Kumogakure, Gyokkushin; Gyokko and Koto ryu are related, and both serve as auxilery fighting arts to Togakure Ryu, Gyokkushin Ryu is related to Gyokko Ryu, Gyokko Ryu is called a school of ninpo as well. The so-called "samurai" arts of Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin, and Shindenfudo ryu have been passed down together.



If I recall correctly, Takamatsu inherited the Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu from Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu (along with Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Gikan ryu). The Takagi Yoshin ryu and Kukishin ryu were inherited from his other teachers.



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I think Kukishin has some connection to ninja ryu (if I'm to believe all the rumors I hear) - same with Shindenfudo Ryu. I don't know where Gikan fits in exactly - I'll have to check my sparse notes again on that.



I seem to recall reading that Gikan ryu, like Gyokushin ryu, is based on Gyokko ryu. But, I could be mistaken. Also, Gikan ryu was part of the so-called 'Momochi-den', was it not??

If I recall correctly, the first official soke of both Kukishin ryu Happo Bikenjutsu and Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu --- Izumo Kanja Yoshiteru --- was purportedly a student of Garyu Doshi ("founder" of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu, and second grandmaster of Iga ryu Ninjutsu). Of course, this doesn't make the individual in question a "ninja" as it would be several centuries before such operatives were being actively used in Iga and Koga (and I don't think Shinden Fudo ryu or Kukishin ryu are Iga traditions --- then again, Izumo is listed by Hatsumi as one of the "forty-five families of Iga ryu"). 

Then again, I could be mistaken.  :asian: 



			
				Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> All-in-all, it makes for one complete package of warfare and personal protection skills, but the overall flavor is that we are learning ninpo, regardless of what technique we're practicing. It all leads to a better understanding and ability to use ninjutsu.



Or, as someone on e-budo once put it, ninpo "permeates" all the ryuha now --- regardless of their respective histories. 

Just my thoughts, of course.  :asian:


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> At least it's better than neo-deconstructivism...then we'd REALLY have some flame wars abound.
> 
> Anyway there's a very good question to ask to those who claim that one cannot know anything for sure.
> 
> ...



 :asian:


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## Shizen Shigoku (Nov 29, 2004)

Heretic: "I would disagree with this. If you look in historical treatises about 'ninjutsu', such as the _Bansenshukai_, there is not much mention of combatic taijutsu, kenjutsu, or the like."

I'm not trying to say there was. I'm just suggesting that "ninjutsu" isn't all that bad to use as a modern, slang term to refer to the overall process of ninja training.


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Heretic: "I would disagree with this. If you look in historical treatises about 'ninjutsu', such as the _Bansenshukai_, there is not much mention of combatic taijutsu, kenjutsu, or the like."
> 
> I'm not trying to say there was. I'm just suggesting that "ninjutsu" isn't all that bad to use as a modern, slang term to refer to the overall process of ninja training.



Ummm.... how about 'Ninpo'??


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## Shizen Shigoku (Nov 29, 2004)

Heretic: "Ummm.... how about 'Ninpo'??"

Meh, fine with me.

Here's something funny:

The dojo I train at is a mma dojo (jkd, muay thai, tai chi, . . . bunch of other stuff), and they have all the different arts listed on the front windows of the building. Our bujinkan group moved in recently, so they put "ninjitsu" on the front. We didn't make a big deal out of it, and it doesn't really bother anybody, but I think it would have been a good idea of the dojo owners to actually ask us what art we did (and how to spell it correctly) before adding more paint to the windows.


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## heretic888 (Nov 29, 2004)

:ultracool


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## Elizium (Dec 5, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> Heretic: "Ummm.... how about 'Ninpo'??"
> 
> Meh, fine with me.
> 
> ...


Maybe the sign painter ran out of paint :whip:


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## Kizaru (Dec 5, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, Takamatsu inherited the Shinden Fudo ryu Dakentaijutsu from Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu (along with Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, Kumogakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Gikan ryu). The Takagi Yoshin ryu and Kukishin ryu were inherited from his other teachers.
> 
> I seem to recall reading that Gikan ryu, like Gyokushin ryu, is based on Gyokko ryu. But, I could be mistaken. Also, Gikan ryu was part of the so-called 'Momochi-den', was it not??


No, _Gikan ryu_ was not part of the _Momochi-den_, and it was not passed down through Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu. _Gikan ryu_ was transmitted to Takamatsu Toshitsugu through Ishitani Matsutaro along with Kukishin ryu. The information can easily be found on the top right hand corner of page 214 in the _Budo ryuha Daijiten_.


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## te_greening (Dec 5, 2004)

i hate it when i've been tied up in knots and can't get out of it.
but i love it when it's my turn.


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## George Kohler (Dec 5, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> I seem to recall reading that Gikan ryu, like Gyokushin ryu, is based on Gyokko ryu. But, I could be mistaken.



Koto-ryu koppojutsu
Gyokushin-ryu koppojutsu
Gyokushin-ryu ninpo
Gikan-ryu koppojutsu
Hontai Gyokushin-ryu
Izumo-ryu koppojutsu

are all based from Gyokko-ryu, but not all went to the Momochi family. Only Koto-ryu and Gyokko-ryu.


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## heretic888 (Dec 5, 2004)

Thanks for the clarifications, guys.  :asian:


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## Hudson69 (Apr 9, 2009)

The favorite thing I like about ninjutsu is the side skills; the taihenjutsu and the ukemi.  The thing I like least is the lack of any type of sparring/randori to allow students to feel how the techniques really need to flow together at speed with someone actively attempting to block, counter or something else.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu (Apr 9, 2009)

Please refrain from posting in topics that haven't been posted in for five years.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 9, 2009)

Shinobi Teikiatsu said:


> Please refrain from posting in topics that haven't been posted in for five years.



Why?  And who made you mod of the Ninjutsu section?


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## Bujingodai (Apr 10, 2009)

LOL, exactly what the hell.
Good topic actually .

I had a chance to see my old teacher (Bujinkan) in action the other night, it did remind me of what I liked and didn't.
I am not a fan of the timed lunge punch, I know it is form and something to work with flow, of which my old Shidoshi is flawless at. I just care for a more pragmatic approach.
I do love the variety, creativity and personal feeling of historical attachment the Bujinkan gave me. It is very different from other arts, I find it funny when they state it is not when they just don't know.
I know it is not a Booj thing, I'd like to see more tenkan used. 
I don't care for the lack of etiquette. I do like the general kinship that exists in the dojo's as a rule that most schools I have seen don't have.


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## stephen (Apr 13, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> I don't care for the lack of etiquette. I do like the general kinship that exists in the dojo's as a rule that most schools I have seen don't have.



I think these two things are related.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 13, 2009)

stephen said:


> I think these two things are related.



I'll disagree, but only because my experience has been different.  When I studied Hapkido there was a whole formal dojo ettique thing, bowing, "Sir/Ma'm" respecting the belts, Etc... and the people were just not very tight or helpful, beyond what was required, or the ones who just are, whether you are the person in the dojo or some schlub on a street corner.

Conversley in my current dojo, we do 1 bow in and out.  No training formalities, we refer to everyone by their first name, you wear what you want to wear, belt rank inst an indication of respect, etc... and we are the tightest group of people I know... we all hang out outside the dojo together, take trips places, socialize... in short we are all FREINDS as well as classmates.

So I don't think the two are neccesarrily linked.  But I'll be the first one to admit our school is different than most, being that its not a "come pay learn" commercial environment.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 13, 2009)

In Genbukan we adhere to a formal protocol on the mat.
I can call the head sensei (Renshi 5th Dan) Filip in the dressing room, but on the mat he is Sensei. We also have to wear the same (ish) outfit, and if we change training partners, we bow in and out. If we hand over a weapon, this is done with a bow as well.

Yet everyone is helpful and and there is a comfortable and positive atmosphere in the dojo. So I don't think the 2 are necessarily related.

In my old JJ club, everyone was on first name basis. The JJ and Judo senseis around my area generally were like that.
And the atmosphere was great as well.

So I really think it is a result of the people who make up the club, rather than the specific structure that is in place.


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## stephen (Apr 13, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> I'll disagree, but only because my experience has been different.  When I studied Hapkido there was a whole formal dojo ettique thing, bowing, "Sir/Ma'm" respecting the belts, Etc... and the people were just not very tight or helpful, beyond what was required, or the ones who just are, whether you are the person in the dojo or some schlub on a street corner.
> 
> Conversley in my current dojo, we do 1 bow in and out.  No training formalities, we refer to everyone by their first name, you wear what you want to wear, belt rank inst an indication of respect, etc... and we are the tightest group of people I know... we all hang out outside the dojo together, take trips places, socialize... in short we are all FREINDS as well as classmates.
> 
> So I don't think the two are neccesarrily linked.  But I'll be the first one to admit our school is different than most, being that its not a "come pay learn" commercial environment.



This is exactly what I was saying. I believe they are linked in *that* way. 

Too much etiquette puts a barrier between you and your classmates, I actually believe it's a more dangerous environment because you're encourage to see people as an 'office' rather than a person. When people are people and classmates are friends ill feelings never build up. Sometimes people don't mind putting a little hurt on that 'whatever-dan that thinks he's _so good_' but no one wants to see a friend injured. 

Also, I think, Cryo, that the sort of dojo you experience _is_ the norm for the Bujinkan. (Besides, I think you've been to my teacher's dojo at least once back in the day....)


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## Cryozombie (Apr 15, 2009)

stephen said:


> Also, I think, Cryo, that the sort of dojo you experience _is_ the norm for the Bujinkan. (Besides, I think you've been to my teacher's dojo at least once back in the day....)


 
I've seen it in a few dojos, but also plenty that weren't. I dont know if we are the norm or not, lol. 

And I may have, who is your teacher if you don't mind me asking?


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## waystland (May 13, 2009)

Hudson69 said:


> The favorite thing I like about ninjutsu is the side skills; the taihenjutsu and the ukemi.  The thing I like least is the lack of any type of sparring/randori to allow students to feel how the techniques really need to flow together at speed with someone actively attempting to block, counter or something else.



you would seriously hurt each other, i asked the question to my Sensei he took a Blackbelt student who is very flexible and takes allot of pain as an uki "cant remember the spelling"  if our Sensei finished the last 10% of the moves the BB would have been in a wheelchair. He took the hits and locks but just a bit more it would have been game over, me being new and do a move without knowing how "the other person feels" to is hard, i hut my classmate because i did not let go of a lock and took him down..... i was VARY SORRY and felt bad 
 i got a broken nose my first month...... i "got up" to fast when a senior belt was " finishing" the move...... now i stay down till i get a hand up or till i tap out and get let go......


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## Newbie (Jun 11, 2009)

From what i've played with so far i'm particularly liking jutaijutsu techniques, having come from previous training that didn't include locks, throws etc... it's fascinating stuff! At the moment i'm more enjoying the taijutsu aspects as apposed to weapons training, though i'm sure each helps the other...i just have less interest in that at this point (wouldn't say i'd hate it though)


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## ElfTengu (Jun 12, 2009)

stephen said:


> Too much etiquette puts a barrier between you and your classmates, I actually believe it's a more dangerous environment because you're encourage to see people as an 'office' rather than a person. When people are people and classmates are friends ill feelings never build up. Sometimes people don't mind putting a little hurt on that 'whatever-dan that thinks he's _so good_' but no one wants to see a friend injured.


 
Etiquette is great except when in the hands of people with OCD or Control Freak mentailities that cannot function without a bubble of imposed order around them.

Think of your dojo as one of those nativity scenes, just when you've got everything just how you want it, someone puts an X-Men figurine in there and no matter how much you try, it just doesn't fit and if it had feelings it wouldn't feel welcome.

I think this is another side to the barrier that you speak of. A student from another dojo/org/art comes to your tightly controlled etiquette bound perfect little set up and it gets your back up because the order and harmony you sought so hard to achieve is now disrupted by a square peg that doesn't fit in any of your round holes.

If anyone does feel like this when somebody new come along, the problem is yours and not theirs.

Etiquette should not make newcomers/visitors uncomfortable/unwelcome, because it is founded on creating an atmosphere whereby guest and host are polite and friendly and do not cause offence, and a cold shoulder is neither polite nor friendly. I have observed that whilst teachers are usually friendly and welcoming, it is often their students who close ranks on a newcomer and are reluctant to train with them etc, but this is also the fault of the teacher because they should encourage a welcoming atmosphere. I've seen pubs where three locals/regulars act like they own the place and directly affect the viability of the establishment as a business because nobody wants to go there just to be made to feel unwelcome. A dojo should not be like this.

And just like actual skill, levels of etiquette will vary greatly from a 15 year old 10th kyu newbie and a 30-something Shidoshi who thrives on 'becoming Japanese' every time they walk into the dojo, and allowances must be made for this.

I know this isn't what you meant Stephen, but just another aspect of etiquette which in itself isn't a bad thing, being crucial for safety, respect and tradition.


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## Kajowaraku (Jun 12, 2009)

ElfTengu said:


> I've seen pubs where three locals/regulars act like they own the place and directly affect the viability of the establishment as a business because nobody wants to go there just to be made to feel unwelcome. A dojo should not be like this.


 
I agree! A dojo should not be like a pub with three regulars scaring off other people! Also, a dojo should not serve beer.:boing2: Love your choice of metaphor .


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## ElfTengu (Jun 12, 2009)

Kajowaraku said:


> I agree! A dojo should not be like a pub with three regulars scaring off other people! Also, a dojo should not serve beer.:boing2: Love your choice of metaphor .


 
I think a dojo with a separate bar attached (not accessible from the matted area) would be my idea of heaven.

Put a Wagamama's next door and I might never go home again!


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## SPX (Dec 7, 2011)

Grey Eyed Bandit said:


> Another thing I dislike is when people's main sources of reference are questionable 80's books...



The 80s were the awesomest.

I miss those days, when there was still a mystique surrounding martial arts.


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## DuskB4Dawn (Dec 9, 2011)

ElfTengu said:


> I think a dojo with a separate bar attached (not accessible from the matted area) would be my idea of heaven.
> 
> Put a Wagamama's next door and I might never go home again!



This would be good for some drinks after training with all your fellow students. You wouldn't want to get drunk before class though. could get a bit messy.
and plus you don't wanna do drunken style boxing. that will just look stupid 

My favorite things in Ninjutsu is well learning Ninjutsu.... I love taijutsu and weapon training just as much as I love Taihenjutsu and the other stealth aspects of ninjutsu. Also I like learning A Japanese martial art and the culture and history and I do believe in proper dojo etiquette.

the things I don't like is power trippers who feel rank is an indication of power. I guess you will find this everywhere in life. If anything its higher grade people that have to take time out to teach you things so. I  genuinely am grateful and can appreciate people of higher rank than me. One of the reasons I left karate is because of ranking. it was like an exam and fee and all the paper work!!! I dislike paperwork  but I like in my school it is a personal approach and you are graded when the instructor feels you are ready.


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