# 10 Mistakes You Cannot Make When Confronted With A Violent Situation



## Carol (Jan 27, 2009)

1. Don't _hope _it goes away. Take the necessary action to end the situation.

 2. Don't expect there to be even a glimmer of compassion in your attacker - there isn't.

 3. Don't believe the playing field will be level when you are attacked.  Conditions will be most advantageous to your attacker and you will be most vulnerable.

4. Don't apply your social restraint to their attack.  The two are not compatible.

 5. Don't believe you can compete normally with their level of violence. They are abnormal.

 6. Don't be confrontational or challenging.  The situation is bad enough; letting your anger urge you headlong into a situation won't help.

7. Don't give up, ever, if attacked.

 8. Don't promulgate a lie to yourself or your loved ones. The realities of today are what they are, and they need to know the hard-core facts about them.

 9. Don't forget, YOU didn't start anything or ask for any trouble.
 
10. Never forget #7.



Source:

Jim Grover AKA Kelly McCann
Guns and Ammo
June 1997


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> 1. Don't _hope _it goes away. Take the necessary action to end the situation.
> 
> 2. Don't expect there to be even a glimmer of compassion in your attacker - there isn't.
> 
> ...


 
Great post Carol..




Carol Kaur said:


> 5. Don't believe you can compete normally with their level of violence. They are abnormal


 
Well said...You must go to the next level..Most rookies cops are given the Use of Force Continumn aka if the attacker does this you do this..The biggest MISTAKE many make is to meet their attack at the same level..Go to the NEXT one...




Carol Kaur said:


> 6. Don't be confrontational or challenging.





Carol Kaur said:


> The situation is bad enough; letting our anger urge you headlong into a situation won't help.


 
Dont run you mouth..It will only empower them...



Carol Kaur said:


> 7. Don't give up, ever, if attacked


 
Amen to that one...Bite, claw, spit WHATEVER it takes....


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## exile (Jan 27, 2009)

The 11th "don't": _Don't forget the eyes&#8212;if they're blinded, they can't see where you are, and they'll have more on their minds than you, at that point._

I'm not joking about this.


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

exile said:


> The 11th "don't": _Don't forget the eyesif they're blinded, they can't see where you are, and they'll have more on their minds than you, at that point._
> 
> I'm not joking about this.


 
Excellent point....


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## just2kicku (Jan 27, 2009)

Great subject, many people forget that when attacked, there is no level playing field, there are no rules! You attack with everything you've got. Spit, bite, pinch, pull hair, and claw, but you do what it takes to neutralize your attacker. And when he's down keep going so he doesn't get up. All rules of a "fair" fight" go right out the window, this guy is trying to hurt or kill you.


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> Great subject, many people forget that when attacked, there is no level playing field, there are no rules! You attack with everything you've got. Spit, bite, pinch, pull hair, and claw, but you do what it takes to neutralize your attacker. And when he's down keep going so he doesn't get up. All rules of a "fair" fight" go right out the window, this guy is trying to hurt or kill you.


 
That's what I said....


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

*KIND OF OFF TOPIC POST: *When I was in the Police Instructors academy the Master Instructor told me that they had this great plan to teach officers *NEVER TO GIVE UP* in a fight...They had to bring in a picture of something near and dear to their hearts, no surprize most had pictures of loved ones...The pix were taken and lamenated and put on the string and the officers wore them arround their necks...During and exercise if they stopped resisting the Instructor would remove the neckpiece and scream at them " *YOU'RE DEAD*,These are no longer yours"...I was told it was a great motivator..Just wanted to share....


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2009)

Drac said:


> Great post Carol..
> 
> Dont run you mouth..It will only empower them...
> 
> ...


Agreed great post! 

Yes, don't run off  at the mouth. Shut the hell up and watch their every move and the area around them. Constantly be mentally filing away possible avenues of escape should you momentarily incapacitate them. You REALLY don't WANT to kill them do you? Because if you do/want like THEY do...then you, are just as bad as they are. 
Killing because you HAVE to and killing because you WANT to are two radically different things. 

Agree with the last, #10... There is *NO SUCH THING* as a fair fight.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2009)

Drac said:


> *KIND OF OFF TOPIC POST: *When I was in the Police Instructors academy the Master Instructor told me that they had this great plan to teach officers *NEVER TO GIVE UP* in a fight...They had to bring in a picture of something near and dear to their hearts, no surprize most had pictures of loved ones...The pix were taken and lamenated and put on the string and the officers wore them arround their necks...During and exercise if they stopped resisting the Instructor would remove the neckpiece and scream at them " *YOU'RE DEAD*,These are no longer yours"...I was told it was a great motivator..Just wanted to share....


Umm... Drac... that's not off topic. :asian:


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Agreed great post!
> 
> Yes, don't run off at the mouth. Shut the hell up and watch their every move and the area around them. Constantly be mentally filing away possible avenues of escape should you momentarily incapacitate them. You REALLY don't WANT to kill them do you? Because if you do/want like THEY do...then you, are just as bad as they are.
> Killing because you HAVE to and killing because you WANT to are two radically different things.
> ...


 
There should have been an 11th...Keep listening and using your peripheral vision to insure he has no buddies sneaking up to assist...


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## just2kicku (Jan 27, 2009)

Drac said:


> That's what I said....


It is what you said Drac... I thought it was important enough to say again.  I think a lot of people forget that anything goes when being attacked.


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## Thesemindz (Jan 27, 2009)

Drac said:


> Well said...You must go to the next level..Most rookies cops are given the Use of Force Continumn aka if the attacker does this you do this..The biggest MISTAKE many make is to meet their attack at the same level..Go to the NEXT one...


 
Unfortunately, while the government thinks it is acceptable for their employees to defend themselves in this manner, civilians can be criminally prosecuted for escalating the degree of violence in a self defense situation. 

If I'm attacked by an empty handed drunk, and I hit him with a pool cue in self defense, in some principalities I can be charged with assault, because my response was beyond what was warranted by the attack. This isn't necessarily the rule everywhere, and usually there is prosecutorial discretion, but everyone has heard the phrase "judged by twelve than carried by six."

I'm not disagreeing. I believe in using overwhelming force to end the confrontation as quickly and as much in my favor as possible. I just expect to face government persecution afterwords. 

They don't like it when someone interferes with their monopoly on the use of force.


-Rob


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## tellner (Jan 27, 2009)

Excellent post full of True Facts(tm). There are a few which aren't quite True Facts(tm)...



Carol Kaur said:


> 3. Don't believe the playing field will be level when you are attacked.  Conditions will be most advantageous to your attacker and you will be most vulnerable.


A form of pessimism which I can support to a point. The problem with it is that it will blind you to opportunities to shade things in your favor. It leaves the bad guy in control. What you need to do is start changing things to put you in control as soon as possible.



> 4. Don't apply your social restraint to their attack.  The two are not compatible.


Again, to a point. But you have to stop when they're no longer a threat. Once they're running away you can't shoot them in the back except under very special circumstances. If they're incapacitated you a can't give 'em another kick inna fork just because they deserve it.
 



> 5. Don't believe you can compete normally with their level of violence. They are abnormal.


I have won a few fights because not because I had calm detached determination but because I was pissed off and damned if that S.O.B. was going to hit me a again. And yes, a good person *can* match a bad person's level of violence and even exceed it. If you're fighting for your life and are so scared of losing that you break through into the zone of raw survival reflexes you can do appalling damage without even thinking about it. 
 



> 6. Don't be confrontational or challenging.  The situation is bad enough; letting your anger urge you headlong into a situation won't help.


Eh, sometimes. Pushing back at the right time can also convince a predator that there's easier prey down the street among the slow and the weak. If you're being interviewed meek acquiescence is much worse.




> 7. Don't give up, ever, if attacked.


"Don't stop until you hear the whistle". When we taught WSD that was one of two or three rules. With any luck they won't stop until they hear the whistle


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2009)

tellner said:


> Excellent post full of True Facts(tm). There are a few which aren't quite True Facts(tm)...
> 
> 
> A form of pessimism which I can support to a point. The problem with it is that it will blind you to opportunities to shade things in your favor. It leaves the bad guy in control. What you need to do is start changing things to put you in control as soon as possible.


Agreed, but folks do need to be prepared that at this point the escalation  rate of violence will be blindingly fast. Be prepared. 


tellner said:


> Again, to a point. But you have to stop when they're no longer a threat. Once they're running away you can't shoot them in the back except under very special circumstances. If they're incapacitated you a can't give 'em another kick inna fork just because they deserve it.


 Yeah but it feels good to do so. If there aren't any witnesses around then by all means. Be-cause-that-s-o-b-just-ruined-your-whole-night/day! Each hash mark equates to a kick btw.




tellner said:


> I have won a few fights because not because I had calm detached determination but because I was pissed off and damned if that S.O.B. was going to hit me a again. And yes, a good person *can* match a bad person's level of violence and even exceed it. If you're fighting for your life and are so scared of losing that you break through into the zone of raw survival reflexes you can do appalling damage without even thinking about it.


I have to go with that as well. It is probably why they have those laws/rules/circumstances for civilians and not "trained, experienced LEOs" who are supposed to know when enough is enough. Funny thing is LEO's are just as human as the rest of us... thank God. 
 



tellner said:


> Eh, sometimes. Pushing back at the right time can also convince a predator that there's easier prey down the street among the slow and the weak. If you're being interviewed meek acquiescence is much worse.


 Sometimes it does... sometimes it doesn't. Depending upon how it's done. Getting all mad and cussing them out and initiating the "c'mon dance" with them IMO isn't going to do the trick. Getting calm and having them see you watching their every move is going to (possibly) un-nerve them enough to know that they picked the wrong one outta the herd... but it may not necessarily deter them. You just might be (in their thinking) more richly padded than they initially thought. All the more reason to give it the old college try. 
The hurt you put on them had better deter them the first time and not piss them off. Remember all they may have initially wanted was your money. Now you're giving them a fight? Bonus! 



tellner said:


> "Don't stop until you hear the whistle". When we taught WSD that was one of two or three rules. With any luck they won't stop until they hear the whistle


 On the streets... there are no whistles.


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## jks9199 (Jan 27, 2009)

Great post, Carol, and lots of good follow ups.  

In my signature, I've got a quote from Rory Miller's book, *Meditations on Violence.  *Rory Miller was a corrections officer, and probably saw more violence than most cops, and definitely than most of the general public.  He writes that real violence occurs "closer, faster, more suddenly, and with more power" than we tend to expect.  My personal experience backs this up.  Point 8 above says not to lie to yourself or your loved ones about the real nature of violence; this is tied to Miller's comment.  But there's two sides; we sometimes lie about the amount or nature of violence magnifying it -- or minimizing it.  Don't fall into either trap; research and learn about violence and what happens in your area.  (See Brian VanCise's blog for a nice comment about this...)

But there's no perfect formula for responding to violence, either.  Sometimes, the right thing IS to confront or challenge someone.  Put the ball firmly in their court, showing that you're not afraid... and sometimes, they back down.  This isn't the same as taunting... but there's a place for a take on the classic "yeah, there's 10 of you, and I've only got 6 bullets... who wants to be first?" approach, too.  There's also a time to give them back 110% of what they're giving you...  

When it's for real, remember the poster of the frog going down the bird's throat, strangling him on the way!


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## tellner (Jan 27, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> On the streets... there are no whistles.


Exactly. Why do you think we used that as the signal to stop?


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 27, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> Sometimes it does... sometimes it doesn't. Depending upon how it's done. Getting all mad and cussing them out and initiating the "c'mon dance" with them IMO isn't going to do the trick. Getting calm and having them see you watching their every move is going to (possibly) un-nerve them enough to know that they picked the wrong one outta the herd... but it may not necessarily deter them. You just might be (in their thinking) more richly padded than they initially thought. All the more reason to give it the old college try.


 
You need not use ghetto urban trash talk just to get them to understand. "Go Away" "Leave me alone", or if you insist on less assertive language "Sorry, can't help you".

A dear friend of mine who passed away some five years ago recounted a story where he, his wife and daughter were accosted by a group of downwardly-mobile young inner city entrepreneurs, and all it took was him sweeping his jacket and saying "You REALLY don't want to stop us from getting in our car and driving home". All he had to do was mean it.

Did the fact he was armed help his confidence? Probably. Did they know for sure? I wasn't there. But even plain ordinary speech can have the desired effect, delivered in a fire-and-brimstone tone of voice.

All you have to do is mean it.




> The hurt you put on them had better deter them the first time and not piss them off. *Remember all they may have initially wanted was your money. Now you're giving them a fight? Bonus!*


 
*SIGH* What did I just spend an entire thread explaining that you *MUST ALWAYS ASSUME*? That's RI-iiiight!



> On the streets... there are no whistles.


 
Nope.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 27, 2009)

Drac said:


> Dont run you mouth..It will only empower them...


 
This reminds me of Eli Wallach, in "The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly", when the bad(er) guy was talking to him at gunpoint telling Eli what all bad things he was going to do, and Eli just fired his gun underwater and killed him. Eli said, "If you are going to shoot, shoot, but don't talk".

Now as for retreating, different states have different laws (and Texas is now pretty much like Florida.) But even if the law says you don't have to retreat, keep in mind you will have to explain your actions to a Grand Jury at the least. If what you say to the cops and the GJ don't sound right, then it's 'tell it to the judge' time.

And just because a few here fell you should retreat does not make it moral or immoral or whatever. As they say, the people have spoken, and thus it is felt it IS moral to stand your ground, if need be, instead of retreat. I will also note that virtualy all retreat laws expect you to only retreat if you can do so in complete safety. They don't expect you to turn your back on a serious threat.

Here in Texas IF you have the legal right to be where you are, and IF you did NOT provoke the other person, then you don't have to retreat. But you still have to be in fear of your life and you will have to articulate this to the cops and GJ. Plus if it's not in your home you can still be sued for such as wrongful death.

Now as for the level of force you can use. This will depend alot on where you are. England and Europe have much different laws than the U.S. And even in the U.S. the laws vary!

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=974994

We've covered that ground before!

Deaf


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## MA-Caver (Jan 27, 2009)

I believe in standing my ground and doing what I gotta do, but only for as long until _they_ cannot stand their ground anymore... then I'm outta there.


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## Drac (Jan 27, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> Unfortunately, while the government thinks it is acceptable for their employees to defend themselves in this manner, civilians can be criminally prosecuted for escalating the degree of violence in a self defense situation.
> 
> If I'm attacked by an empty handed drunk, and I hit him with a pool cue in self defense, in some principalities I can be charged with assault, because my response was beyond what was warranted by the attack. This isn't necessarily the rule everywhere, and usually there is prosecutorial discretion, but everyone has heard the phrase "judged by twelve than carried by six."Rob


 
Or as Grandmaster Pellegrini said to me " I'd rather have an ugly trial than a beautiful funeral"...


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## tellner (Jan 27, 2009)

I personally saw Mr. Pelligrini butt heads on that one with a lawyer and a long-time cop. It turned out that however considerable his skill at martial arts self defense law is not his specialty. 

It's all in being well-prepared for dealing with the aftermath.


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## Archangel M (Jan 27, 2009)

And while a lot of the aftermath is based on the "facts". A LOT of the aftermath is based on the articulation. Thats why the general advice "keep your mouth shut" is so common. Many people fail at articulating the event in the manner that best supports their actions.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 28, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> And while a lot of the aftermath is based on the "facts". A LOT of the aftermath is based on the articulation. Thats why the general advice "keep your mouth shut" is so common. Many people fail at articulating the event in the manner that best supports their actions.


 
So true.  So true.  I think its probably best to let a lawyer speak for you... they can say what needs to be said in the proper language: Courtesque.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jan 28, 2009)

Exactly. What matters in the courtroom isn't so much what you *did*. What matters is what you *say*, and what they can *prove*.


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## MJS (Jan 28, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> 1. Don't _hope _it goes away. Take the necessary action to end the situation.




Agree.  This goes hand in hand, IMO, with that other thread I started on why people are afraid to defend themselves.  




> 2. Don't expect there to be even a glimmer of compassion in your attacker - there isn't.


 
Exactly.  And that being said, I don't feel that we should always have compassion for them.  We didn't ask to be attacked, so they get what they deserve.




> 3. Don't believe the playing field will be level when you are attacked.





> Conditions will be most advantageous to your attacker and you will be most vulnerable.


 
True.  And if there is something that we can do to even the field, it'd be a good idea to do it. 




> 4. Don't apply your social restraint to their attack. The two are not compatible.


 
As tempting as it is, its probably not a good idea to continue once the fight has stopped.  Assess each situation. 




> 5. Don't believe you can compete normally with their level of violence. They are abnormal.


 
I'm not so sure I agree with this 100%, for the reasons a few others have already mentioned.  




> 6. Don't be confrontational or challenging.





> The situation is bad enough; letting your anger urge you headlong into a situation won't help.


 
A few ways this can be taken.  If we act like a tough guy, this may fuel the other guys fire.  If we act like a chicken ****, this still may fuel his fire, to continue on with his rant.  I would say to act confident and sure of yourself.  Not overly cocky and not overly whimpy.  But make it known that you are standing up for yourself.




> 7. Don't give up, ever, if attacked.


 
True.




> 8. Don't promulgate a lie to yourself or your loved ones. The realities of today are what they are, and they need to know the hard-core facts about them.


 
Yup.




> 9. Don't forget, YOU didn't start anything or ask for any trouble.


 
True.  Then again, I'm amazed at how many people I see, while out driving, that do the dumbest things, oh say, like pulling out from a side street, cutting you off.  So you hit the horn, and suddenly, this seems to piss off the other guy, and he now acts as if you are the cause.  Amazing how the real trouble makers try to turn the situation around to blame you, and justify their actions off of that.  






> 10. Never forget #7.


 
True. 





> Source:
> 
> Jim Grover AKA Kelly McCann
> Guns and Ammo
> June 1997


 
I've read some great articles by the man.  Great stuff!


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## GBlues (Jan 28, 2009)

May I ask a question? 

Seems that a lot of the posts on martialtalk.com deal with violence as it pertains to the social spectrum, as opposed the anti-social violence. Why is that?


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## jks9199 (Jan 28, 2009)

GBlues said:


> May I ask a question?
> 
> Seems that a lot of the posts on martialtalk.com deal with violence as it pertains to the social spectrum, as opposed the anti-social violence. Why is that?


I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.

Many of here are active martial artists (not surprisingly).  Many of us also have a strong practical self defense approach to our training, rather than heavily competition or focused on the personal development aspects.  Additionally, this particular sub forum with MT is about self defense.  So it's not at all suprising that lots of posts here deal with violence.

If your talking about having more of an acceptance of some violence in life and training, then, again, I think it's a result of the community.  Folks here practice various forms of violence, even though it may be stylized.  They accept the existence of a level of violence in the world... and maybe even find it fun sometimes.  In a relatively controlled situation.


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## KenpoTex (Jan 28, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> 1. Don't _hope _it goes away. Take the necessary action to end the situation.



This first one reminds me of my favorite quote from McCann (well okay...second favorite):  "waiting for final confirmation of an imminent attack usually results in injury to yourself."  In other words..."get there firstest with the mostest." 

I'd love to train with McCann someday...he's the real deal.


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## GBlues (Jan 29, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you're asking.
> 
> Many of here are active martial artists (not surprisingly). Many of us also have a strong practical self defense approach to our training, rather than heavily competition or focused on the personal development aspects. Additionally, this particular sub forum with MT is about self defense. So it's not at all suprising that lots of posts here deal with violence.
> 
> If your talking about having more of an acceptance of some violence in life and training, then, again, I think it's a result of the community. Folks here practice various forms of violence, even though it may be stylized. They accept the existence of a level of violence in the world... and maybe even find it fun sometimes. In a relatively controlled situation.


 
I guess there seems to be this assumption that there will be words spoken or some action that will happen before the confrontation begins that will allow you time to prepare yourself for the confrontation. I here alot about taking it to the next level before the attacker does, or what do you do when the attacker takes it to the next level. These terms are all rooted in the social spectrum. It's gone from conversation, to agressive conversation, to pushing and shoving, to full blown fight. That is violence on the social spectrum. If I beat up tom my social standing goes up, and his goes down. I win in the pissing contest. You know what I mean?

Where as a-social violence is your talking to the guy like you would anybody else, just having a good time enjoying a pool game or a cup of coffee at work, and the next thing you know out of nowhere your fighting for your life. There is no, escalation, no steps to get to the violence it's just happening. I think it's important to make that distinction, because violence is a tool.  Doesn't matter who is using that tool, it's still a tool. And when you jump from the social spectrum into the world of a-social behavior it's a whole nother ball game. A-social violence isn't about beating you up to look better or to prove who's tougher, or who's got the higher social standing. It's full on do as much damage as is humanly possible the easiest most effective way that a-social individual knows how. So in this situation it really is not in my mind a good idea to try and do submissions or other such non-devastating attacks unless you plan on breaking something. You just end it, i.e, tearing out eyes, destroying limbs, till the guy can't attack you anymore. See what I'm saying. I guess that is my question.


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## morph4me (Jan 29, 2009)

GBlues said:


> I guess there seems to be this assumption that there will be words spoken or some action that will happen before the confrontation begins that will allow you time to prepare yourself for the confrontation. I here alot about taking it to the next level before the attacker does, or what do you do when the attacker takes it to the next level. These terms are all rooted in the social spectrum. It's gone from conversation, to agressive conversation, to pushing and shoving, to full blown fight. That is violence on the social spectrum. If I beat up tom my social standing goes up, and his goes down. I win in the pissing contest. You know what I mean?
> 
> *Where as a-social violence is your talking to the guy like you would anybody else, just having a good time enjoying a pool game or a cup of coffee at work, and the next thing you know out of nowhere your fighting for your life. There is no, escalation, no steps to get to the violence it's just happening.* I think it's important to make that distinction, because violence is a tool. Doesn't matter who is using that tool, it's still a tool. And when you jump from the social spectrum into the world of a-social behavior it's a whole nother ball game. A-social violence isn't about beating you up to look better or to prove who's tougher, or who's got the higher social standing. It's full on do as much damage as is humanly possible the easiest most effective way that a-social individual knows how. So in this situation it really is not in my mind a good idea to try and do submissions or other such non-devastating attacks unless you plan on breaking something. You just end it, i.e, tearing out eyes, destroying limbs, till the guy can't attack you anymore. See what I'm saying. I guess that is my question.


 

I don't believe that violence comes out of nowhere, it seems to because someone isn't paying attention or isn't aware of what's going on around them. You can tell when you're being targeted if you know what you're looking for, are aware of your surroundings, and trust your instincts. Take the appropriate measures to avoid it, or make it seem like a better idea to target someone else, and you significantly reduce the chances of being a target. The first step is understanding and believing that it _can_ happen, and I think that many of us on MT understand that.


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## jks9199 (Jan 29, 2009)

GBlues said:


> I guess there seems to be this assumption that there will be words spoken or some action that will happen before the confrontation begins that will allow you time to prepare yourself for the confrontation. I here alot about taking it to the next level before the attacker does, or what do you do when the attacker takes it to the next level. These terms are all rooted in the social spectrum. It's gone from conversation, to agressive conversation, to pushing and shoving, to full blown fight. That is violence on the social spectrum. If I beat up tom my social standing goes up, and his goes down. I win in the pissing contest. You know what I mean?
> 
> Where as a-social violence is your talking to the guy like you would anybody else, just having a good time enjoying a pool game or a cup of coffee at work, and the next thing you know out of nowhere your fighting for your life. There is no, escalation, no steps to get to the violence it's just happening. I think it's important to make that distinction, because violence is a tool.  Doesn't matter who is using that tool, it's still a tool. And when you jump from the social spectrum into the world of a-social behavior it's a whole nother ball game. A-social violence isn't about beating you up to look better or to prove who's tougher, or who's got the higher social standing. It's full on do as much damage as is humanly possible the easiest most effective way that a-social individual knows how. So in this situation it really is not in my mind a good idea to try and do submissions or other such non-devastating attacks unless you plan on breaking something. You just end it, i.e, tearing out eyes, destroying limbs, till the guy can't attack you anymore. See what I'm saying. I guess that is my question.


I think I see where your going, and I think it's worthy topic -- but it's going to derail this particular thread.  Maybe we can get another thread going?  Meanwhile, as a short answer -- there are two "types" of violence.  One is ritualized combat; Rory Miller coined a great term for this, the Monkey Dance.  It's not really about violence, it's about status.  Note that doesn't mean you can't get hurt or killed in a Monkey Dance!  The other is "real" violent attack, where the violence is a tool to obtain some other goal (even if that goal is simply the satisfaction of beating the hell out someone, or committing a rape, etc).  This sort of violence is another beast entirely; it's going to be VERY sudden (often no posturing; the first news of the attack is the fist hitting you -- or knife going in), VERY fast, VERY brutal, and VERY close.

Like I said -- this is a very good topic, but I think it should be split off into a new thread.


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## Deaf Smith (Jan 29, 2009)

Here is a mistake you can make...

It was sung by Roger Miller in "Water Hole Number 3".

"Don't draw against a man that's faster than you...."

"You've sang your last diddy"

"You've kissed your last filly"

"You've played your last hand if you do....."

And remembr the Code of The West (same show.)

"Do unto others before they do unto you"!

Deaf


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## MJS (Jan 29, 2009)

GBlues said:


> I guess there seems to be this assumption that there will be words spoken or some action that will happen before the confrontation begins that will allow you time to prepare yourself for the confrontation. I here alot about taking it to the next level before the attacker does, or what do you do when the attacker takes it to the next level. These terms are all rooted in the social spectrum. It's gone from conversation, to agressive conversation, to pushing and shoving, to full blown fight. That is violence on the social spectrum. If I beat up tom my social standing goes up, and his goes down. I win in the pissing contest. You know what I mean?
> 
> Where as a-social violence is your talking to the guy like you would anybody else, just having a good time enjoying a pool game or a cup of coffee at work, and the next thing you know out of nowhere your fighting for your life. There is no, escalation, no steps to get to the violence it's just happening. I think it's important to make that distinction, because violence is a tool. Doesn't matter who is using that tool, it's still a tool. And when you jump from the social spectrum into the world of a-social behavior it's a whole nother ball game. A-social violence isn't about beating you up to look better or to prove who's tougher, or who's got the higher social standing. It's full on do as much damage as is humanly possible the easiest most effective way that a-social individual knows how. So in this situation it really is not in my mind a good idea to try and do submissions or other such non-devastating attacks unless you plan on breaking something. You just end it, i.e, tearing out eyes, destroying limbs, till the guy can't attack you anymore. See what I'm saying. I guess that is my question.


 
I think morph made some good points. To toss in my .02....IMO, it seems like you're describing 2 different things here. Example 1: You're at the ATM when suddenly from around the corner, a guy runs up to you holding a knife, yelling, telling you that he's going to cut you if you don't give him money. In that scenario, no, there is nothing that leads up to the violence. One moment you're minding your own business, next moment, you're faced with a deadly situation. 

Example 2: You said that one moment you're talking to someone and then next, you're fighting with this person you were just talking to. This happened to me at a prior job. A co-worker and I were having a discussion, which was on a controversal topic. Things started to get a bit heated, and next thing I knew, as I was walking away, he started coming after me. Could we be in a bar, hanging with a few friends, when suddenly someone comes up and hits you?  Sure.  But I would say that its probably going to be split with half the time there will be a precursor to the violence, and the other half its a random attack.  Of course, this is where being aware comes into play.  Do you see a group of guys eyeing you from across the room?  Perhaps while innocently looking around, one of those guys assumes you're looking at his girl?  

I tend to avoid places where there is a high potential for problems.  Doesn't mean someone couldn't get pissed at me while standing in line at the grocery store though.  

This is something that can be trained, however, I'd be willing to bet the average martial arts school does not train it. This is why I'm a big fan of scenario drills. In addition to that, being aware of whats going on around you and reading body language is also important.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jan 30, 2009)

Drac said:


> Great post Carol..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Exactly!  And just as importantly, stay ahead of your opponents reaction curve......meaning apply your force with speed, surprise and enough violence of action that you overcome his ability to react to it.



Drac said:


> Dont run you mouth..It will only empower them...


 Darn good advice......I learned on the playground that some men gather courage by 'running their mouth'......I always lost mine if I opened my mouth.


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