# Training in Japan, a few tips!



## Brian R. VanCise

Having just returned from Japan.  I thought that I would give some
important information to those going over to train with Soke!
First off I would advise anyone going over to check Ohashi Sensei's
sight out for training times and how to get to Ayase and Noda!
http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/  !

     Next up, I would recommend anyone going to Japan to invest in 
some Tombo Weapons that can be found at: www.timbathurst.net !
These are great training tools and best of all they are light weight!
This is really important when you are trudging around Japan, the last
thing you want is to be carrying a lot of extra weight!

     Finally another really important thing is that you have a comfort level  
with your training and with what is currently being taught by Soke!  You 
can attend as many seminars as possible with various Shihan who have
been training recently in Japan.  Train with your instructor who is up
with the current teachings of Soke or you can also check out the 
website of Shihan Legare and Shihan Pearce to get a feel for what 
Soke is currently teaching!  This webstite: www.shinkentaijutsu.com ,
has video clips of Shihan Legare and Pearce teaching what is currently
being taught at the Hombu Dojo!

Finally get prepared for some* great training!*

Brian R. VanCise


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## AnimEdge

Ill remebert his if i very go to japan thanks


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## AaronLucia

How much did it cost overall?


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## Brian R. VanCise

Well, training in Japan can be expensive but there are several 
things that you can do to make it more cost effective.  First, try to
find someone who lives in Japan to put you up for a reasonable cost!
That would save you a considerable amount of money!  Second if that
is not possible but you have a timeshare somewhere in the states you
may be able to use that to get an excellent deal in Japan by transfering
to an affiliate with your timeshare company!  Second, be prepared to
eat light and penny pinch when you can!  You have to account for:
Lodging, Food, Train fare(this can get expensive), training fees, sight
seeing(if your able and not to busy training), and last but not least 
airfare!  I would really recommend having a credit card that gives you
miles for airfare when you purchase items.  That credit card could allow
you to get your airfare paid for with bonus miles and that would save a
lot of money!  We flew roundtrip for around $745, which at the time was
a good deal!  Needless to say you should plan anywhere from $2,500 to 
$3,500 but really it all depends on what you do, where you stay, what 
you eat, and how many times a day you train!  Sorry for being so long, 
I hope this helps!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Cryozombie

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> First, try to
> find someone who lives in Japan to put you up for a reasonable cost!
> That would save you a considerable amount of money!
> Brian R. VanCise



We should all go and Show up at Don's Doorstep... I'm sure he will put us all up.

Hehe.  Just kidding Don.  :asian:


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## Don Roley

Technopunk said:
			
		

> We should all go and Show up at Don's Doorstep... I'm sure he will put us all up.



Grab the hose dear. We have another outbreak of ninja in the garden.


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## Kunoichi

I have not visited Japan yet although I hope to in the not too distant future.
How important is it too be able to speak Japanese?  I know very little of the language now but I am trying to learn little by little....  
Would being clueless to the language hinder your training or is it not that important?

Thank you


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## Patrick Skerry

If for no other reason than common courtesy, I would go to a community college and take a course in conversational Japanese before visiting their country.  You would be surprised how appreciative some people can be if you make an attempt to speak their language.





			
				Kunoichi said:
			
		

> I have not visited Japan yet although I hope to in the not too distant future.
> How important is it too be able to speak Japanese? I know very little of the language now but I am trying to learn little by little....
> Would being clueless to the language hinder your training or is it not that important?
> 
> Thank you


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## AaronLucia

You could either do that...or...be like me and buy a ton of Hatsumi's videos. I think just hearing the language spoken by natural speakers helps to creep it into your head.


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## Don Roley

You know, in all seriousness, if there was someone I thought I could trust not to run off with my silverwear I might be willing to give them a futon to sleep on. Providing of course they lived in an interesting area and were willing to do the same for me and my family in the future.

Always wanted to travel. Cutting down on costs like lodging would make it a lot easier.

And for trips to Japan, that is going to be what you have to think about. The air fare and lodgings are going to be a huge chunk of your budget. If you pack some donuts for the first few days breakfast, peanut butter, etc you can save some cash on food as well.

So there really is little reason to skip some sort of training because of money. As hard as it may sound to some people, I have heard some people say that they were going ot skip some class because of money. After all that they paid to get here, it just sounds like an excuse to me.

Oh, and I think everyone that comes to Japan should learn enough Japanese to ask where the toilet is. It is hard to get good enough so that you can understand the parts that can only be transmitted by words rather than showing you the moves. But being able to ask where a station is, etc, will save you some grief while trying to find neat things to buy in Tokyo.

Since I am on a roll, I will say that I think people should try to find a Japanese shihan that has small classes and is willing to give individual attention to the most basic of things. You may think that you know the san shin, kihon happo, etc. And maybe you do. But if you do not and do not know enough to know that you don't know(did that make sense?) then it is best you find out your weak points from the most knowledgeable people you can.

Some people have said that they were skipping going to training with some of the shihan in order to be fresh for Hatsumi's lessons. I think they are either idiots, or lying with an agenda of getting rank from Hatsumi. Hatsumi is great, but he can't be bothered to deal with the very basics. And the basics will serve you best in the long run. And the smaller size and greater individual attention really raises the quality of the instruction in the Shihan's classes. A typical class with Nagase, Oguri or Noguchi might have 10 people. Only 9 (maybe less) other people with you and a teacher of the quality of Noguchi! Being a little more tired and less likely to impress the boss enough for him to give you your next rank is a small price to pay for that type of chance IMO.


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## Kizaru

I posted this on another internet forum. Hope nobody minds if I cut and paste it here...

Re: Tips for Training in Japan!
I'd like to chime in about the 'proper care and feeding of translators'.

Recently, I've been translating at the Honbu on Saturdays and there are a few points I'd like to bring up on how to make your experience there a little smoother.

1. FOCUS ON THE INSTRUCTOR. THE TRANSLATOR IS A STUDENT JUST LIKE YOU.

When you walk in the door, there is a group of students and a teacher. The translator is a student like everyone else. If you find that you have a question that needs to be asked, please direct it to the INSTRUCTOR, and not to the translator. I don't know how many times I've said to someone, "Are you asking me, or XYZ sensei?" This is a very common mistake, but is also very rude. The translator will actually appreciate it if you FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON THE INSTRUCTOR, even as he interprets for you what the
instructor is saying. This is an act of respect for the teacher, and that's the most important thing. After all, you want to build a relationship with the teacher, and not the translator, right?

This does NOT mean that the translator is an invisible slave who will hop to your side every single time you feel the urge to open your mouth! Keep in mind that the translator is there as a service to the TEACHER, and NOT
as a service to the students. He is there spending his own hard-earned time and money to train, just like you, with the added effort of having taken the time to learn the Japanese language before-hand. If you want him to stop his own training every five minutes and run over so that he can
translate a question for you, you should discuss and arrange this beforehand and pay him his hourly rate.

2. KEEP IT SIMPLE

There are some Japanese shihan who will want to try speaking English or Spanish with you. By all means have fun in these situations, but do your best to handle them on your own. Don't involve the translator in your efforts to be understood unless absolutely neccessary. Smile, keep it
simple, and be ready to save it for later and get back to training.

3. DON'T TEACH IN SOMEONE ELSE'S CLASS

Sometimes, when a concept is being demonstrated, people get excited and want to blurt out comments about what they see, or what they think the teacher means. This urge is understandable, but is considered rude, REGARDLESS of what dan rank you hold, how many seminars you've taught, how many books you've written or videos you've made. It blurs the line between who is the teacher and who is the student, and this is HIGHLY inappropriate when training anywhere, but especially in Japan. It is also annoying to the teacher, who will more often than not be unable to fully understand and/or verify your re-interpretation of what he is saying. (It drives me nuts when, after I translate something simple, someone says something like, "But what sensei really means is to polish your knob until it gleams like a mirror," or some other such garbage!)

Bear in mind that this mistake can also happen when translating from English into another language, for example Spanish, Dutch etc. etc. PLEASE don't assume the role of teacher yourself. The shihan is the teacher, you are the student. As a co-translator, the shihan is speaking through you. Please do not grab a friend and begin demonstrating the technique as you translate into your language. Let the teacher demonstrate with *his* movements, you just translate the words. Later, on your own, you can discuss and re-interpret to your hearts content.

4. IT'S OKAY TO SAY "HELLO!"

Another thing people often forget or don't realize is that when you come into the dojo, it's perfectly okay say 'hello' to the instructor. While you yourself may feel somewhat shy as a newcomer to Japan, think how would you feel if you were surrounded by a group of people all speaking their own language--and not one of them made an effort to talk to you or greet you? Even in your own home town this would feel uncomfortable, especially when these same people are suddenly hounding you for advice once the class has begun! Small talk is fine. Say 'good morning' or practice your Japanese or talk about the weather. You don't have to be a megadan or a 'personal student' of his in order to walk up and say hello.

You don't have to ask about 'winning a fight' or 'what do you think about XYZ sensei leaving the Bujinkan?' (However, if you want to stir up a hornets' nest like that, I'm sure I can find someone ELSE to translate for you!)

IN CLOSING...

On those cold, rainy Saturday afternoons, there's nothing wrong with asking the teacher if he'd like you to make him some tea before class. If he's driven a long way he'd probably appreciate it.

Lastly, bear in mind that the happier and more at ease your instructor feels, the more likely he is to offer you the 'keys to the castle' which is what you came all the way to Japan to get in the first place!


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## Don Roley

Kizaru said:
			
		

> This does NOT mean that the translator is an invisible slave who will hop to your side every single time you feel the urge to open your mouth! Keep in mind that the translator is there as a service to the TEACHER, and NOT
> as a service to the students. He is there spending his own hard-earned time and money to train, just like you, with the added effort of having taken the time to learn the Japanese language before-hand. If you want him to stop his own training every five minutes and run over so that he can
> translate a question for you, you should discuss and arrange this beforehand and pay him his hourly rate.



Don't even get me started about this.

If I had my way, people who translate for the Shihan would have a couple of police officers walking in front of them, shoving citizens aside while screaming, "Move aside peasants! A TRANSLATOR is coming through!"

There is no benifit for people translating for you. They do it as a favor. Treat them as if you owed them something- because you do! They pay the same amount as you do to show up to class and the attitude some people seem to have that because they are visitors they have priority really does not make me want to go out and inconvinience myself for them.

Here is a hint- no matter what they shihan teaches you will probably learn a hell of a lot from it. So if the guy who has been there every week for 5 years or so wants to learn something new, you will probably enjoy it. If you make a big stink out of learning something at one session, there have been cases where the next time you show up the translator has either taken the day off, or suddenly can't seem to have time to translate what the teacher says.

For that matter, why the heck do some people not bother to learn things before they show up to Japan? I know that I said that people should double check what they think they know with the best teachers they can, but I have translated Someya's way of passing a sword over to another person time and time again. What really pisses me off is that some of the instructors that were there two years ago learning that bring their students to Japan and the students do not know what I KNOW Someya taught the teachers in the past.

Treat the translators with the respect of someone who is doing a big favor for you out of the kindness of their heart deserves. You would probably not understand a good portion of what was going on if not for them. And if anyone hears about how I can be an even worse insulting bastard in person than on the internet, it is probably because I can point to at least five cases where I have told people to take off because they tried to _order_ me to translate without so much as a "please" involved.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Regarding translating I would concur whole heartedly that you need to
really respect and appreciate the effort of the translators!  They really are
helping you in a very, very important way!  I also feel that it is important
to have a small working knowledge of the Japanese language before you go,
or at least have someone in your group who has a working knowledge!  It
is very important to know how to articulate where the bathroom is? Other
phrases such as where is the train station, bus, etc all come in handy!  
      Going with a group really makes the trip fun and enjoyable and if you 
are able to travel with your Shidoshi or Shihan!  That is really special! 
     While you are in Japan, everyone is going to go to Soke's classes but 
Don's point about going to as many of the Shihan's classes as possible is
excellent!  You can learn a world of information from Shihan's like Senou, 
Noguchi, Ogguri, Shirishi,Nagato not to mention Legare, Pearce, Young,etc.
There are so many good teachers living in Japan that if you have the 
opportunity to train with someone take the time and do it!

Brian R. VanCise


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## AaronLucia

I really appreciate all the information guys!

I only started about 3 months ago, but i can't wait to go to Japan and train!


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## Enson

i saw the hombu dojo on that website given by brian. pretty nice. smaller than what i had expected... but nice.

peace


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## Cryozombie

I had a couple questions...

If you go to Japan to train, and show up at a class, is it appropriate to just arrive?  Should you arrive with someone who already trains there?  Is it expected that you will be introduced to the Shidoshi, or can you just introduce yourself and train? (as was pointed out in the above post)

Do only Dan Ranks go train?  Is it uncommon for Kyu ranks to go to these Dojos?


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## Kunoichi

I am glad to hear that there are many kind translators over in Japan since languages have never been my strong point, although I am still looking to enrole into Japanese lessons to help me improve and expand on my basics  Thank you for sharing your information, it is much appreciated!


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## Dale Seago

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I had a couple questions...
> 
> If you go to Japan to train, and show up at a class, is it appropriate to just arrive?  Should you arrive with someone who already trains there?  Is it expected that you will be introduced to the Shidoshi, or can you just introduce yourself and train? (as was pointed out in the above post)
> 
> Do only Dan Ranks go train?  Is it uncommon for Kyu ranks to go to these Dojos?



*wiping tears of laughter from eyes*

Oh, dear lord.

I couldn't agree more with what Kizaru and Don have said.

Technopunk, regarding your questions:

Certainly, it's a good idea to come with someone who already trains in the dojo you're going to if possible, so they can introduce you. That may not always be possible (some students from my dojo and others in the area often go over at different times from me, for example, which I actually encourage so we get more of a smooth "flow" of transmission during the year), and if that happens to be the case it would be a nice thing if your Shidoshi furnished you with a letter of introduction to the Shihan you're visiting. If that doesn't happen, at least be prepared for him to ask who your instructor is and hope the Shihan knows him.  

To give an example of what I mean, a sandan who's been wandering the world for most of the past year told me in class tonight that around the time of the April Tai Kai he was training with Nagato shihan at Hombu and asked him a question about something. Got a fairly superficial answer, as Nagato didn't know him.

Was back periodically over the next couple of weeks before going on to Thailand, and at some point Nagato asked him who he trained with. I'm his "secondary" teacher, not his primary one; but when he mentioned my name Nagato said, "Ah, yes -- he understands Budo", and everything changed; Nagato spent quite a while talking with him and getting into the "meat" of what the lad had been asking about.

And no, you certainly won't find only dan ranks training at the dojo of the various Shihan -- they have their own students who live there, y'know, and not everyone starts as a black belt.

Hatsumi sensei often says in his own classes and at Daikomyosai trainings, "There are no ranks here", and he seems to mean it. An absolute total-newbie white belt has as much "right" to be there as any nosebleed-level megadan. Mind you, that doesn't mean the former will learn or understand as much as the latter, as Don has pointed out; but, truly, everyone is welcome at Soke's classes.

My personal recommendation for training in Japan would be: Go to Hatsumi soke's classes for inspiration, and to the various Shihan's classes for understanding.


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## Don Roley

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Regarding translating I would concur whole heartedly that you need to
> really respect and appreciate the effort of the translators!



Respect? Try *worship!!!!* 

Or do you want something like this to happen to you?


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## Kizaru

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Respect? Try *worship!!!!*


Don, "it's a _cleansing_ flame"....now where did I put my NINGEN MAKIWARA?

:asian::nuke::asian::rofl::asian::nuke::asian:


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## AaronLucia




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## Brian R. VanCise

I concur with Saego Shihan that when traveling to Japan
it would be nice if you could go with your Shihan or Shidoshi 
who have been there before.  However, that is not always 
possible so having a letter of introduction would always be a
good idea.  I think contacting the Hombu Dojo Administrator
Ohashi Shihan and letting him know you are coming and how
many are in your group might be a good idea to!  My impression
was also that everyone is welcome, all Bujinkan members are 
welcome in Soke's class.  When I was there, I saw at least
eight to ten kyu ranks in every class!  

     Now Don, referencing your worship phrase, *respect* is more
than enough!  Worship, well that may be overstating the 
translators importance by a bit to much!  (ha, ha, I really 
appreciated and respected all of the translators efforts!!!)

     One last thing I really think that if you can before you go,
attend several seminars with various Shihan that travel to Japan
or live in Japan.  Shihan such as Legare Sensei, Pearce Sensei,
Saego Sensei, Martin Sensei, Young Sensei etc.  This will really 
help you and more than likely you will know a Shihan when you
are training in Japan!  Just my two cents!

Brian R. VanCise


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## Deaf

well I'm pretty familiar with the translator "rules" since being deaf I have a translator.  It is pretty annoying when a person is supposedly talking to me but keeps facing the translator! 

On that note, when I get to Japan (sometime in this lifetime).  I will have to face the translator simply for the fact that I will have to read their lips.  Will this pose a problem?  Since I don't know much about the Japanese ettique in that regards.

~Deaf~


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## Kizaru

Deaf said:
			
		

> On that note, when I get to Japan (sometime in this lifetime). I will have to face the translator simply for the fact that I will have to read their lips. Will this pose a problem? Since I don't know much about the Japanese ettique in that regards.


Just have the translator explain that you read lips in English, not in Japanese, there shouldn't be any problem.


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## Don Roley

Deaf said:
			
		

> On that note, when I get to Japan (sometime in this lifetime).  I will have to face the translator simply for the fact that I will have to read their lips.  Will this pose a problem?  Since I don't know much about the Japanese ettique in that regards.



I do not think the Japanese will take offense, but sometimes the translator is the uke for the technique being demonstrated. Maybe not at the honbu, but in the smaller shihan classes the teacher may want to grab and demonstrate on a person whose ukemi ability is well known. That may be the translator if there is no one better around.

Funny, related story. I usually run a comedy routine while translating. One time my teacher got me into a seoi-nage type of move while I was translating. As I was on my toes he said, "There is a reason why I put him up in the air" which I translated. Then he lowers the boom and tosses me into the ground-hard. From there I made the comment, "that's why."

Entire class took over a minute to compose themselves enough to get back to training.

And I still say you should worship, yes WORSHIP the translators!!!! Bring them casks of sacred wine and toss virgin sacrifices to them. You will get a lot better service if you do. You want the guy to stick around after class to pick the teacher's brain about something? Well, better make it worth his while or he is going to catch an early train instead.


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## Shogun

You only say that 'cause your a translator. ya big silly.


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## Kizaru

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And I still say you should worship, yes WORSHIP the translators!!!! Bring them casks of sacred wine and toss virgin sacrifices to them. ...


Would those virgin sacrafrices happen to be communists?


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## Dale Seago

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Bring them casks of sacred wine and toss virgin sacrifices to them.



Single-malt Scotch whisky okay?

I'll be back in a couple of months; I can bring a warm, sweet full-bodied twelve-year-old for you to try out. . .

Whisky, that is, not a virgin!!

 :uhyeah:


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## Kreth

A slight tangent, but... not just for translators, but any of the gaijin who help you out... For example, if you plan to stay with one of the local Bujinkan members from the States or Canada, it might be a good idea to ask if there's anything they'd like brought over that may be hard to get in Japan. 

Jeff


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## Don Roley

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Single-malt Scotch whisky okay?
> 
> I'll be back in a couple of months; I can bring a warm, sweet full-bodied twelve-year-old for you to try out. . .
> 
> Whisky, that is, not a virgin!!
> 
> :uhyeah:



Forget the Scotch, after reading that I spewed my morning coffee all over my monitor. Get me a new computer!

Seriously, I found Speybourne in Tokyo and the inport duties seem to make it cheaper than you can get in it America.

Dale brings up a good point. It is a nice thing to bring a little local gift to the teacher. If you are from America, maybe some Wild Turkey or some See's candy, etc. Japanese do this.

One thing the Japanese do not really need is t-shirts and other stuff that takes up room forever in small Japanese houses. Some teachers may ask for specific things, but if you have not been asked try to bring soemthing they can consume and discard like foods and drinks.

And don't forget the hard working trnaslators!!!! The nut case who translates for Nagase likes Samual Adams and Moosehead beer. As much as you can leglally carry. Worship me peons, WORSHIP ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Genin Andrew

"Dale brings up a good point. "

Uhh...Don?

Was that Dale or Kreth(Jeff)??? Dont worry Jeff i'm sure Don knew it was you he was just gettin' all excited about the beer...a few typos can be excused ; )

-andrew


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## Don Roley

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> Was that Dale or Kreth(Jeff)???



Dale first brought up the subject of bringing things to Japan, Kreth expanded on it to make the very, very good suggestion that you should bring things for gaijin staying in Japan that they can't get here.

As an example of the latter, right now I am in contact with someone who is getting me a video of "The Little Mermaid" for my daughter. It is no longer made. The second hand stores on the web do not seem to want to ship to Japan. The Japanese second hand stores only have copies that are dubbed in Japanese. And I want my daughter (who has been gaga over Ariel since seeing a live show at Tokyo Disney Sea) something that will challenge her English while she rots her brain in front of the TV.


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## AaronLucia

Anyone know the costs to train with Nagato, Shiraishi or Naguchi sensei's?
I was mainly planning on training with Soke when i went to Japan, but after watching a video with the above guys in it, i decided to try to train with them too.

Anybody have any further info?


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## Kreth

Hatsumi sensei has requested that we not put prices on a public forum. I've pmed you the info you asked for...

Jeff


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## Don Roley

One thing I should mention,

*Do not bring live swords to Japan!!!!* 

The Japanese goverment does not like the idea of swords being brought in. If you have a Japanese made sword made in the traditional manner, they will let you in after a few hours of anal exam. I had a friend get a sword in America that he thought was made in Japan. Turns out, it was made in China. Some of the modern made blades you can get are now made in China. Unless you _know_ the sword is made in Japan (like you bought it here) leave it at home or be prepared to have it seized and melted down.

Oh, and if you buy/ bring a real sword to Japan, do not take it to the honbu. Please! Ask if you can bring it in the time before you show up with it in your hand to the Japanese shihan's classes. Unless you are planning on doing some test cutting, there really is no need to have something like that around.

On the same subject of not bringing things to Japan, be carefull of things like cold remedies and such. Some of the things you can get over the counter in the states are illeagle in Japan. I do not have a list to point to and urge people to just err on the side of caution. They treat these things almost the same way they do crack or meth.

On the other hand, if you get sick and need something like that, trying to figure out the lable of the stuff in the drug stores here can be a real pain. :idunno:


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## Dale Seago

Don Roley said:
			
		

> One thing I should mention,
> 
> *Do not bring live swords to Japan!!!!*



Or Hielan' dirks either.


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## Kizaru

Don Roley said:
			
		

> If you have a Japanese made sword made in the traditional manner, they will let you in after a few hours of anal exam. :idunno:


Don, if that's what you've got to do to get back into Japan, then I think you've been standing in the wrong line...


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## Don Roley

And whatever you do, never _ever_ ask a Japanese shihan their opinion of someone's buttocks.

 :rofl: 

Oh yeah. There _is_ a story involved, but until I get the TV program in my hands, you will just have to wait.


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## Dale Seago

Don Roley said:
			
		

> And whatever you do, never _ever_ ask a Japanese shihan their opinion of someone's buttocks.



Well, most Asians don't have any to speak of anyhow, though I could mention a few lasses I was lucky enough to. . .

. . .but I won't, as that was before I met m'lady Ter.

Who may end up reading this thread at some point.

And who sleeps with both a short sword and a .40 cal Glock within reach on her side of the bed.


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## ShotoSan

Cant wait to go to Japan...


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## Don Roley

One piece of advice to add.

There are places in Tokyo where you can get uniforms made with your name on them. I would reccomend you go with _katakana_ which is used as a phonetic alphabet for non- Japanese words. Unless you really, really know the language well, don't even think about using _kanji_ - the pictogram part of Japanese. You may note that the guys who know the lnaguage well all go with _katakana_. You would be best to follow their lead. It is too easy to foul up the kanji- even if you ask a Japanese to write it for you.

And if you don't believe me, ask the guy in Nagase Dojo we are now calling "Jurassic Park." :rofl:


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## Don Roley

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Treat the translators with the respect of someone who is doing a big favor for you out of the kindness of their heart deserves. You would probably not understand a good portion of what was going on if not for them. And if anyone hears about how I can be an even worse insulting bastard in person than on the internet, it is probably because I can point to at least five cases where I have told people to take off because they tried to _order_ me to translate without so much as a "please" involved.



Just to emphisize the above point.....

_Do not_ make 'talky talky' gestures with your hand at the translators or otherwise _order_ them to do something for you.

And the Japanese are pretty much forgiving to people who do not know all the fine points of Japanese customs and manners as long as you are fairly respectfull in your attitude. But for Cthulu's sake, would people try some of the stuff I have seen go on here in their home countries?

Ignoring a person's request that you do not try cooking in the dojo they let you sleep in and ending up burning it to the ground *is not* a small cultural thing. The same goes for talking loudly while the teacher is talking, screaming at any time, etc.

There was an old comedy program called Barney Miller with an episode that stands out in my mind. A Puerto Rican police officer is bringing in a hispanic perp when the perp makes a comment in Spainish and the officer cuts him off in the same language.

Perp- "Hey man! Why didn't you tell me you were Puerto Rican?"

Officer- "Are you kidding? How the heck do you think I feel when I hear someone scream 'help police' and find some Puerto Rican beating the hell out of someone? I want to pull my gun out and say (switching to British accent) 'I say ol' chap! Do be a love and but your hands up! Cheerio!'" 

Sometimes I feel like I am living that episode when I see some of the stupid stuff gaijin do in Japan away from the people they have to deal with on a regular basis. All their good sense and politeness goes out the door. I know I am not the only one that tends to avoid visiting students until we are pretty sure that they won't stand embaress us. I have had guys make obvious lewd comment about females that did not require any language ability to understand while standing next to me. 

When you travel in Japan, understand that you are guests. You are not expected to know everything, but try to think about the possibility that you may be offending someone before you do something. And don't be surprised if those of us that have to live here avoid you if you do not try to make that effort.


----------



## Don Roley

One request by me.

In Japan, a lot of males will drop their trousers and change into their uniforms in front of everyone- females included. And many non- Japanese have decided to be like the Romans in Rome.

However- I think you should note that the Japanese that do that usually are wearing something like boxers. Saturday I saw the teacher change and he was wearing long underwear in August!

Please, please, *Please* do not do like what I saw that day and wear sexy briefs with t-backs...... :anic: If you do, please change out of sight. It sounds like common sense. But there is no test for that in the Bujinkan it seems.


----------



## Kizaru

Don Roley said:
			
		

> *Please* do not do like what I saw that day and wear sexy briefs with t-backs...


By "t-backs" you mean "thong underwear" or "a G-string", right? "t-baku" is just a Japanese translitteration, right? You _*did*_ get pictures of the guy in the thong to post all over the internet, right?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Common sence seems to be thrown out the window by 
some people! I saw the same thing multiple times when
I was training in Japan and you are exactly right in that
the the times I did see a Japanese change that way
they were wearing more appropriate clothing underneath!
Such as boxers, long underwear, etc. 

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I think it goes without saying that one shouldn't be late for appointments. Well, I was unlucky enough to do just that once. I was busy looking for something in Umesato (what I was looking for is another discussion altogether:uhyeah: ) and thus showed up a bit late for Noguchi's class. Of course I said hello to said gentleman before I joined in, but after 30 minutes or so I started to feel a little bit sick and feverish, which would get worse the day I left, so after a while I decided it would be best for me to leave. I walked up to Noguchi and said that I felt a little feverish (yes, in Japanese) and he said OK. I even tried to pay him for the class but he wanted me to keep the money, and so I went home to get a hold of some medicine.

I did feel a whole lot better the next day though, so my illness didn't keep me from visiting Soke's class in the evening. Anyway, during the tea break, people I knew from before walked up to me and said "hey, where in the world did you go last night? What's that supposed to mean, just disappearing without warning?" with the obvious connotation of "who the hell do you think you are, first arriving late to a Japanese shihan's class and then walking out at the moment of your choosing, you little punk!?!?" 
Initially, I was furious at them for interpreting it like I was being a jerk to Noguchi, which was about the last thing I wanted to do while in Japan. I was just about to retort big time when I remembered where I was and who was sitting about three meters to my left, and so I settled on not uttering a single word to the people in question for the remainder of the evening.

It would take several months before the misunderstanding was taken care of between me and the individuals in question, but looking back on it now it obviously seems quite pointless. Anyway, the next time I'm in Japan I'll be inclined to skip any and all classes I won't be able to make it to in time to make sure the incident doesn't repeat itself.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I know how you feel and have been in the exact same position of
showing up late for a class in Japan! We got caught up with a 
few of our guys in our group staying out way to late and so we
started late and arrived ten minutes late! I felt really bad, I am
very punctual and rarely if almost never late for any appointment!
The Shihan in question though, seemed really happy we were 
there and did not seem to mind! Whether this is the case I do
not know, but we enjoyed all of his classes while we were there
and he was always nice to us. With the travel time involved
coming from Tokyo I am sure that this happens every now and
then and that they take it in stride! However, I hate to be late
for anything and it certainly made me feel really bad!

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Of course I said hello to said gentleman before I joined in, but after 30 minutes or so I started to feel a little bit sick and feverish, which would get worse the day I left, so after a while I decided it would be best for me to leave. I walked up to Noguchi and said that I felt a little feverish (yes, in Japanese) and he said OK. I even tried to pay him for the class but he wanted me to keep the money, and so I went home to get a hold of some medicine.



I don't think showing up late is quite that bad. But maybe if you get into the same situation in the future, you might think about putting off getting the medicine and sitting on the sidelines watching class. I doubt Noguchi would take offense, but it would have shown the others in the class the fact that you were not in a condition to train anymore. Try to look green at the same time. Trust me, dropping out of training is not frowned upon if you are sick. But you do have to worry about others whom you do not make explinations to spreading stories.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I just find it sad that the Japanese national pastime of backstabbing gossip has spread to Bujinkan members of foreign nationalities...then again, who am I to talk - I'm fairly sure whom the gentleman who burned down a dojo in Japan is, as well as which shihan the dojo belonged to. :uhyeah:


----------



## Don Roley

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You know, in all seriousness, if there was someone I thought I could trust not to run off with my silverwear I might be willing to give them a futon to sleep on. Providing of course they lived in an interesting area and were willing to do the same for me and my family in the future.



Is there no one out there that can take a very obvious hint?????

I have maybe a year before I move back to America and would like to check out various areas while being able to show my wife just how nice an area they are. I am not the greatest in taijutsu (I train under them) but could be of help if you could just give us a place to stay and a tour for my better half while I teach your class.

Consider this an appeal for a tour of an area to move near to in return for teaching the simple level of taijutsu I can understand while living here!!!!


----------



## Don Roley

George Ohashi wrote this on Kutaki recently.



> Don't drink alcohol before training. If you have a matter to celebrate, please drink after training or stay away from the dojo.



*What the hell is wrong with some people!!!!!* 

You know there is a story behind that warning. It was not a pre-emptive strike. And you know it is not a case of someone who has a little beer on his breath but otherwise acts normal.

Am I the only one that hears about these things and wonders why we have to make all these precautions against idiots? To me, showing up to class obviously intoxicated is outside my way of thinking. I can't imagine doing it anymore than sticking my hand in a meat grinder. It is just freaking common sense.

*So why the hell do we have to make announcements like this?* 

For the love of all that is good, keep some decorum and try to use some common sense while in Japan. I have a nasty attitude towards a lot of non- Japanese in Japan until they prove they will not do something like this that makes us all look bad. People sail in, party and raise hell and then go home without ever having to live with the consequences of their actions. I have to live with it instead. There are restraunts near Ayase station that will turn away non-Japanese now. I never caused problems there. But because of some idiots my options for eating are now limited.

Use common sense when you come here people!!!!! Just because no one says anything to the guy walking down the street in Manhatten while picking his nose does not mean it is acceptable. Things work the same here. By the time someone tells you to stop you have probably already ruined your reputation. I do not think the drunkards will ever be fully forgiven. And they could have had a lot more help with their taijutsu in the future instead of being allowed to wallow in their ignorance if they had only used a little common sense.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I couldn't imagine anyone ever showing up for 
class drunk! I guess some people just throw 
common sence to the wind when in another 
country! Don, you are right unfortunately it
then makes everyone look bad!

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:
			
		

> *What the hell is wrong with some people!!!!!*


 You know, I saw that post on Kutaki and I was in disbelief. I couldn't believe that Ohashi-san had to say that. It just makes sense not to consume alcohol before training.

 I have not been to Japan yet, my plans are Daikyomyosai (sp?) next year (2006). I am an extremely polite person here in the USA and of course I am a littled worried I would still do something offense, so I am taking the time to read posts like these on Kutaki and also pretty much anything Ohashi-san puts out about coming to Japan, what to do and not to do, plus all the common sense stuff. 

 Of course, so far, I am just appalled that people would do the things they do there. Such as the whole trash issue, alcohol, and doing things in class to draw unwanted attention.

   I am looking forward to making trips to Japan.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

BigShadow,

You will love it! I cannot wait to go back next summer! I really
think that if you are considerate and use good common sence 
you will not have any problems. I felt very welcomed there and 
all of the Shihan really tried to make us feel welcomed and 
taught at a fantastic level! Soke, of course is beyond fantastic
and his classes were a true delight as well as mind blowing.
Go as soon as your able you will not regret it! Personally I am
going when it is the hottest! Hot = less people, more space
and possibly better individual attention. Though you could
not go wrong going to daikyomyosai either!

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

If everything works out with my new job there's a chance I'll be back to Japan sometime next year as well.

And if the pasta restaurant outside Ayase station is now among those places that don't serve foreigners, the guys responsible for it are going to bleed...:rpo:


----------



## Bigshadow

Nimravus said:
			
		

> If everything works out with my new job there's a chance I'll be back to Japan sometime next year as well.
> 
> And if the pasta restaurant outside Ayase station is now among those places that don't serve foreigners, the guys responsible for it are going to bleed...:rpo:


 I am going to go over with my instructor, otherwise, if I were by myself, I would be LOST!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I went by myself, and that worked out fine. On the other hand, there were several people whom I knew from before there as well. But still, keep handy a Japanese dictionary, the address of the place you're staying at as well as lots of cash and a good smile and you should probably be fine.


----------



## Don Roley

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> You know, I saw that post on Kutaki and I was in disbelief. I couldn't believe that Ohashi-san had to say that. It just makes sense not to consume alcohol before training.



You know what got me... It was the fact that I saw the post, got the story from someone else and when I went back to the original message no one had responded. 

I am not registered at Kutaki. But a lot of people are. No one posted anything that was the equivelent of a jaw hitting the floor. I could not understand the silence at first. Then I realized...

Stories of people getting drunk and doing stupid things in Japan _are old news_ to most of us.

People do things here that they would never do if they had to look at their neighbors for the rest of their lives and know they knew. When I take different cars on the train from people returning from training it is because I have talked with people on platforms only to have them suddenly make loud and obviously lewd comments about women walking by. You do not need to understand Japanese to know what they were thinking and saying.

They would not do it in their home countries in front of people they have to live with. But they do it here. And they harm those of us that do live here and the Bujinkan as a whole.

Think I am just being a ninny? There are people who have had to have the police take them off of those huge electrical wire towers while drunk. The Chiba SWAT team has shown up to the apartment of at least one Bujinkan member. Some visitors ignored Oguri's rule about no cooking in the dojo they were staying at and burned it down.

Oh, I could go on for pages here. But you get the point. People forget to act like there are consequences to their acts while in Japan. 

And I do not want to be anywhere near them when they do.

Some of the older folks may remember an old sitcom called "Barney Miller." One of the episodes had a Puerto Rican Detective bringing in a hispanic suspect. When the perp says something in Spainish, he is told to shut up in the same language.

"Hey, why didn't you tell me you were Puerto Rican?" says the perp.

"Are you kidding," responds the cop. "How the heck do you think I feel when I hear someone scream 'help, police he is trying to kill me' only to find a Puerto Rican beating the hell out of someone? I want to pull out my gun and say (switching to an English Accent) 'I say, would you be a good chap and put your hands up. Hip, hip cheerio!'"

Some people living in Japan who translate are pretty friendly and open. Some tend to be stand- offish. Before you brand the latter as a bunch of Japan Elitists, try to imagine all the guys who came before you. You don't have to see most of the people on the platform again after making a wolf whistle and licking motions. But the guys who live here might see them again. :soapbox:


----------



## Bigshadow

Don,

 I can sympathize with you. I think there is alot of common sense things that cross national boundaries and are universal and everyone understands. Being polite and respectful is easy to do, I don't understand why people find it so difficult to do. Well, I definitely will not fit in with the people you described. 

 I didn't reply to Ohashi-san's post because I was shocked (I am registered with Kutaki and on there often) and didn't know what to say and I felt it had a very powerful message in and of itself.

 There are many posts on Kutaki by Ohashi-san asking that people don't leave their water bottles and trash in the Hombu when they leave. I couldn't believe he had to ask... and ask... and ask.... I was shocked. I wonder if they leave trash in their own dojos? I like the mantra "If you pack it in, pack it out!" Got that from my off-roading people and the Tread-Lightly program.


----------



## Eireannach

Don Roley said:
			
		

> You know what got me... It was the fact that I saw the post, got the story from someone else and when I went back to the original message no one had responded.
> 
> I am not registered at Kutaki. But a lot of people are. No one posted anything that was the equivelent of a jaw hitting the floor.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I also saw this on kutaki when it was first posted by Joji Ohashi. One of the reasons I didn't post about it was because I remember a few months there were threads about litter etc. and also about people walking out of Hombu when they discovered that Sensei would not be teaching that night and that it would _only _be Oguri Shihan teaching that night. I mean, he's _only_ one of the first generation Shihan, training for 30/40 yrs, passed the godan test with live blade etc. Clearly not worth training with.
> 
> I'm Irish, I have not yet been to Japan, but am absolutely aghast at this behaviour. What I find more concerning is that those in authority seem unwilling to take drastic action to deal with it. Several people expressed the view that these people (the serial litter droppers, drunkards, ignorant oafs who do not appreciate the value of training with someone like Oguri Shihan etc.) should simply be asked to leave the Bujinkan. By all accounts, Hombu is already rammed to capacity on a regular basis. Why not just get rid of these idiots? For some reason there seems to be an unwillingness to do so. Perhaps this is why people are not responding to these posts anymore. I mean what's the point if noone is willing to do anything about it?


----------



## Don Roley

Some advice.

Traveller's checks can really only be cashed at high class hotels and banks. Most Bujinkan members don't stay at the former.

Either carry around several days more cash than you think you will ever need and/or be damn sure you know when the bank holidays are.

I just talked with someone who spent all his free cash on Sunday night a few weeks back thinking he could get his TCs cashed the first thing next day. It was a three day weekend and Monday the banks were closed. He had a heck of a time and had to be saved by other Bujinkan members.

It is better to have money in your pocket and not need it than vice versa.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I have to agree with Don on this. I had a friend who went with Travelers 
checks and he had a hard time getting them cashed! Eventually he did get them cashed at a bank but it did take several days! 

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## kakuma

Don is correct concerning knowing when the bank holidays are. I always cash my traveler's checks at the Chiba Ginko in downtown Noda and I have never had a problem with cashing TC's or exchanging money. They do check all bills to make sure they are not counterfeit though (which takes a little time) but no hassles. 

It is also easier if you have a credit or debit card. The post offices all have international atm's in which you can draw directly from your acct. The exchange rate is usually also a little bit higher using this method.


----------



## davidg553

FYI, you can cash Travellers checks and use the International ATM's at the Noda Post Office


----------



## Cryozombie

So, out of curiousity, how safe is it to carry cash there?


----------



## kakuma

I've carried from a couple hundred in upward to a couple thousand dollars/yen. 

As in america I wouldn't go flashing it around. But, overall in Noda-shi I have found it to be very safe.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

I carried my passport, my credit card, my Bujinkan membership card and about 1800 dollars worth of cash in a small pouch with a zipper around my neck at all times while in Japan.


----------



## Cryozombie

I suppose, all things being equal, we should be safe anyway... I mean, thats part of what we train for right?

And I dont just mean being able to fight to keep our money, but the situational awareness, etc...


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Indeed...so don't be walking into weird places with the ladies offering you a massage outside Kashiwa station...:ultracool


----------



## Cryozombie

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Indeed...so don't be walking into weird places with the ladies offering you a massage outside Kashiwa station...:ultracool


 
But... thats the real reason I wanted to go. *pouts*

I did see at the Japanese Grocery store near here in their book section, an english book (they have a few) that was a Guide to Japan's red light districts...


----------



## Don Roley

Technopunk said:
			
		

> So, out of curiousity, how safe is it to carry cash there?



I would be more worried about losing the money than having it stolen. There are thieves and pick pockets, but violent robbery is not much of a worry.

One thing about money and exchanging. I have looked at the places in American airports that will exchange money. Their rates are terrible. I would get only the minimum amount you need from them. If you get in before banks close in Japan, there are a few places in Narita airport that will do it for a rate that is very good. 

Travelers checks get a few points better rate than cash. All told, by using TCs and exchanging money in Japan you can save yourself a lot (like one day's worth of cash) if you are dealing in the type of volume most Bujinkan members carry to Japan.


----------



## Don Roley

This should be a no- brainer, but I will say it anyways because some Bujinkan members seem to have no brains.

The closer you are to where Hatsumi is known, the better your behavior should be. I have trouble enough with people that go down to Roppongi and get into trouble. But to do it in Noda is not cool. The closer you are to him, the more you should toe the line.

Case in point. I went to Ayase tonight and was walking there from the station. Way in front of me was a gaijin couple and just behind them was a well known Japanese shihan. They came to a intersection just short of where the training is with a no- crossing light flashing. The Japanese stopped and waited for the light. The gaijin took a quick look and then jaunted across the street against the light.

The Japanese looked back at me and gave me a look. I responded with one of my own that said, "I am not one of _those_ types." We kind of shared a moment of understanding that did not include the jaywalkers.

Hey folks, I jaywalk all the time. But I do not want my actions reflecting badly on Hatsumi. In an area where he is known to be teaching a large number of non-Japanese, you keep your nose clean. What you do reflects on him. Japanese are very big on gossip and we do stand out.

You may think I am being a ninny, but there are very few of you that know the culture as well as I do.:2xBird2:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Good point Don and it is amazing how many people forget that their actions reflect on the Bujinkan and also on Hatsumi Sensei.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


----------



## Don Roley

One thing that may help save some cash.

There is a ticket you can get, a pass, for the greater Tokyo area. All the way from Narita almost to Kamakura I think. I have heard of people getting it on weekdays, but they won't sell it at my local station except on weekends. Maybe the guys who got it pulled the gaijin card with the station folks and they took pity on them.

Anyways, 2300 yen or thereabouts and you can get on and off the train as many times as you want on the area covered by the map that comes with it. It may or may not be worth your while to use for a day of shopping and sightseeing. But it is something I think you should at least think about.


----------



## Don Roley

I have to post a warning.

I do want to go into the details of why, but taping lessons in Japan just got a bit more difficult recently. It seems a matter of common sense that people would tape things or take pictures and use them for themselves without any sort of financial gain. But there have been people that have abused this and now I would not advise trying to whip out a camera unless you were damn sure it was cool.

There really is no one rule for everything. I know that Nagase has no trouble letter people he knows like Luke Molitor tape his classes. And I will not even ask Oguri if I can tape his classes even though he knows me because I know he does not like it.

A lot of people like to tape things so that they can have some sort of reference when they get back home to remind them. But there are some that have turned around and sold tpaes, or traded them for some sort of benefit. The actions of a few have now made it more difficult for the majority of people. Please be carefull about the matter and make sure you do not go against the wishes of the teacher.


----------



## Don Roley

An idea.
Recently Dave Gibb was talking to me about bringing some Canadian beer to Japan later in the month.

It may be a good idea to bring local beers rather than hard alchohol.

Some of the teachers here have so much booze that they could never drink it all. Most people do not drink the hard stuff all that often. I am one of those that get by with beer most of the time. I just do not have the craving for the hard stuff like I do beer. So some of the Japanese may be having large collections of hard alchohol build up while they go out and buy beer every week.

So maybe a bottle or two of local microbrews might be an idea. Just a thought.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> An idea.
> Recently Dave Gibb was talking to me about bringing some Canadian beer to Japan later in the month.
> 
> It may be a good idea to bring local beers rather than hard alchohol.
> 
> Some of the teachers here have so much booze that they could never drink it all. Most people do not drink the hard stuff all that often. I am one of those that get by with beer most of the time. I just do not have the craving for the hard stuff like I do beer. So some of the Japanese may be having large collections of hard alchohol build up while they go out and buy beer every week.
> 
> So maybe a bottle or two of local microbrews might be an idea. Just a thought.


 
Hey Don,

That does sound like a good idea and you can tie it in to where you are from to help them remember you.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Early on in this thread (page 1) Don Roley mentioned that some people skipped training with the Shihans in order to only train with Hatsumi.  If you are going to Japan I would advise you to make an effort to attend every Shihan's class that you can.  Of course do not miss any training with Soke but you can really get some private attention to detail in the Shihan's classes that is otherwise very, very hard to get in Hatsumi Sensei's class.  When I was there Nagato pointed out some very important points while using Shuko that I might have missed if I had not attended his class.  Shiraishi Sensei taught some awesome ukemi skills. (simply awesome)  Seno Sensei worked on a very specific technique with my partner and I and showed us the correct spacing to make it work even better.  So do not miss out on training with the Japanese Shihan they will defintely help to improve your taijutsu.


----------



## kouryuu

This is my first post here and it`s not a happy one.

I totally agree with Brian, when i was in Japan in April at one of Nagato sensei`s sunday morning classes, i was talking to him near the changing area during the lesson and about half an hour before the lesson was due to end, the door to the Honbu opened and two guys came in, i told them they were late, they said "we`ve only come for Soke`s class", i told them to get out and wait outside, then closed the door on them, i find it highly disrespectful that people are coming in to get changed while Nagato sensei`s class (or anyone`s for that matter)is in progress, it`s even more disrespectful because they`re basically saying that they can only learn from Soke, we NEED to go to these other Shihan to get even an inkling of what Soke is teaching, what p`d me off even more was that one of those guys was a brit!

I`m in Japan again next week, i hope i don`t see that type of behaviour from anybody again, it`s just downright rude!

Ok, rant over

Normski

www.bujinkan-kouryuu.com


----------



## Don Roley

Hey Norm, welcome to martialtalk.

I hope we can meet up while you are here. Training is a bit crowded at the honbu now I hear. Maybe some of the crowd will move out before you arrive.


----------



## kouryuu

Cheers Don, thankyou for the welcome, i look forward to it, i`ll be there from the 3rd-20th October, got a bit ahead of myself there, it`s the following week i arrive not next week, doh!.
Yeah, i heard it was crowded, it started to get that way just as i was leaving in April, if it continues to thin out a bit i`ll be happy.

See you soon

Normski, the wrinkly ninja!.

www.bujinkan-kouryuu.com


----------



## Jonathan Randall

kouryuu said:


> Cheers Don, thankyou for the welcome, i look forward to it, i`ll be there from the 3rd-20th October, got a bit ahead of myself there, it`s the following week i arrive not next week, doh!.
> Yeah, i heard it was crowded, it started to get that way just as i was leaving in April, if it continues to thin out a bit i`ll be happy.
> 
> See you soon
> 
> Normski, the wrinkly ninja!.
> 
> www.bujinkan-kouryuu.com


 
Hey, welcome to Martial Talk! You have a great website!

BTW, I understand you concern about the disrespect shown by those visitors who disrupted a senior's class and only wanted to see the "head". I bet they didn't realize that most heads of respectable organizations hate that sort of crap.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Norm,

Welcome to MartialTalk!  Lucky you, just a few more weeks and you will be in Japan. (I am definately jealous)  Have a great time training and between now and then I would love to hear about some of your training.
Take care.


----------



## kouryuu

Jonathan Randall said:


> Hey, welcome to Martial Talk! You have a great website!
> 
> BTW, I understand you concern about the disrespect shown by those visitors who disrupted a senior's class and only wanted to see the "head". I bet they didn't realize that most heads of respectable organizations hate that sort of crap.


 
Thankyou Jonathan, i appreciate it.

As far as hating that sort of crap, i agree with you, the problem is as i see it is that the "heads" and the teachers under them won`t really say anything because it would be deemed bad manners, luckily it`s not everybody, just a few ignorant few.


----------



## kouryuu

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Norm,
> 
> Welcome to MartialTalk! Lucky you, just a few more weeks and you will be in Japan. (I am definately jealous) Have a great time training and between now and then I would love to hear about some of your training.
> Take care.


 
Thanks Brian, i go twice a year and have been since 1998 but i still can`t get enough of it, even at my age!!!!:ultracool


----------



## Koryu Rich

kouryuu said:


> I`m in Japan again next week,







kouryuu said:


> i`ll be there from the 3rd-20th October, got a bit ahead of myself there, it`s the following week i arrive not next week, doh!.




  Well Norm that scared the heck out of me! Thought I'd got my flight details mixed up  



  Cracking thread gents cheers for the tips.

  Right I'm going back to lurking.

 :lurk:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Spookyfbi said:


> Well Norm that scared the heck out of me! Thought I'd got my flight details mixed up
> 
> 
> 
> Cracking thread gents cheers for the tips.
> 
> Right I'm going back to lurking.
> 
> :lurk:


 
Do not lurk to much!  We would definately like to hear your opinons and issues regarding your training.


----------



## Don Roley

kouryuu said:


> As far as hating that sort of crap, i agree with you, the problem is as i see it is that the "heads" and the teachers under them won`t really say anything because it would be deemed bad manners, luckily it`s not everybody, just a few ignorant few.



That is one piece of advise I can pass along.

Just because someone does not say something, does not mean they approve of what you do.

Don't think you can do what you want until someone tells you to stop. Be a bit paranoid and consider the idea that maybe what you are about to do will tick them off _before_ you do anything.

Not if you want to stay on their good side.


----------



## Dale Seago

kouryuu said:


> This is my first post here and it`s not a happy one.



I think you did exactly the right thing, Norm. 

In my opinion, if you're going to train at Soke's Sunday class then the best way to ensure you can cram your way into the Hombu dojo for it is to spend the couple of hours prior to that getting well tenderized by Nagato sensei so that you're already there. 

Really, it just boggles my brain that anyone would go over there and not take the opportunity to maximize their training experience by training with every shihan they possibly can in addition to Soke.


----------



## Don Roley

Dale Seago said:


> Really, it just boggles my brain that anyone would go over there and not take the opportunity to maximize their training experience by training with every shihan they possibly can in addition to Soke.



I can imagine people that live here for as little as a few months taking off part of Sunday. Many Japanese work on Saturday as well as the rest of the week and Sunday is a big day for dates. When Hatsumi was teaching from 9-11 on Sunday, leaving right after could mean that you were able to make a lunch date.

But the people that came for only a few weeks and then would take off right after class boggles my mind. I used to have the opposite problem. From where I come from it was hard to make it to class by 9 and so a few times I showed up only for Nagato's class. It blew my mind to see all the gaijin walking in the other direction as I got close to the dojo.

Honestly, if you are not seeing a Japanese girl (guy) and have most of the days during the week off, I don't see any reason to not take the time to train with every shihan you can.


----------



## Carol

Don Roley said:


> I can imagine people that live here for as little as a few months taking off part of Sunday. Many Japanese work on Saturday as well as the rest of the week and Sunday is a big day for dates. When Hatsumi was teaching from 9-11 on Sunday, leaving right after could mean that you were able to make a lunch date.
> 
> But the people that came for only a few weeks and then would take off right after class boggles my mind. I used to have the opposite problem. From where I come from it was hard to make it to class by 9 and so a few times I showed up only for Nagato's class. It blew my mind to see all the gaijin walking in the other direction as I got close to the dojo.
> 
> Honestly, if you are not seeing a Japanese girl (guy) and have most of the days during the week off, I don't see any reason to not take the time to train with every shihan you can.



So this is the Bujinkan's version of the kata collector:  the mat-time-with-soke collector....


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> I can imagine people that live here for as little as a few months taking off part of Sunday. Many Japanese work on Saturday as well as the rest of the week and Sunday is a big day for dates. When Hatsumi was teaching from 9-11 on Sunday, leaving right after could mean that you were able to make a lunch date.
> 
> But the people that came for only a few weeks and then would take off right after class boggles my mind. I used to have the opposite problem. From where I come from it was hard to make it to class by 9 and so a few times I showed up only for Nagato's class. It blew my mind to see all the gaijin walking in the other direction as I got close to the dojo.
> 
> Honestly, if you are not seeing a Japanese girl (guy) and have most of the days during the week off, I don't see any reason to not take the time to train with every shihan you can.


 
Hey Don,

You are right on the money.  When you are only over there for a couple of weeks and you traveled around the world to get there you need to really get as much training in as you can.


----------



## Don Roley

Carol Kaur said:


> So this is the Bujinkan's version of the kata collector:  the mat-time-with-soke collector....



Often one and the same person........

Hatsumi really does not have the time IMO to go over the basics. Some of the shihan I have trained with will point them out. I think that the guys that only go to Hatsumi want the rank that only he can give and avoid having any faults pointed out to them so they can keep thier illusion of mastery.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> Often one and the same person........
> 
> Hatsumi really does not have the time IMO to go over the basics. Some of the shihan I have trained with will point them out. I think that the guys that only go to Hatsumi want the rank that only he can give and avoid having any faults pointed out to them so they can keep thier illusion of mastery.


 

Hey Don,

I think you are right on this.  I particularly enjoyed training with Senno Sensei when I was there last.  Small class, lots of hands on instruction and he was kind enough to take the time and point out some of the 
mistakes that my partner and I were making.  This was also true of all
of the Shihan that we trained with to varying degrees.  Shiraishi Sensei
took a lot of time with each of us and we personally felt every technique that he did as he demonstrated it on everyone. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




For people chasing rank they probably just want to go to Hatsumi Senseis
class.  However, they are missing out on having their basics checked and
rechecked by the Japanese Shihan.  Just my 02. for what it is worth.


----------



## Carol

Don Roley said:


> Often one and the same person........
> 
> Hatsumi really does not have the time IMO to go over the basics. Some of the shihan I have trained with will point them out. I think that the guys that only go to Hatsumi want the rank that only he can give and avoid having any faults pointed out to them so they can keep thier illusion of mastery.


 
Hastumi's time?  Or Hatsumi's _honor_?  It seems logical that Hatsumi Soke would entrust upon his Shihan to mind the basics and the bolstering of his students.  If Hatsumi's Shihan have earned the faith and trust of Soke to achieve that, then Hatsumi won't be watching for the basics...am I correct?

Is it fair to say that the picture being painted is darker than I expected?  That there is more than just simple ego....these "collectors" are using Hatsumi's own honor against him to short-circuit their way to rank?  

What sort of belwether do you think training with Hatsumi's shihan truly is?  If a student is seriously interested in studying Taijutsu, should the student drill his/her prospective Sensei about who they trained with if/when they went to Honbu?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Carol Kaur said:


> Hastumi's time? Or Hatsumi's _honor_? It seems logical that Hatsumi Soke would entrust upon his Shihan to mind the basics and the bolstering of his students. If Hatsumi's Shihan have earned the faith and trust of Soke to achieve that, then Hatsumi won't be watching for the basics...am I correct?
> 
> Is it fair to say that the picture being painted is darker than I expected? That there is more than just simple ego....these "collectors" are using Hatsumi's own honor against him to short-circuit their way to rank?
> 
> What sort of belwether do you think training with Hatsumi's shihan truly is? If a student is seriously interested in studying Taijutsu, should the student drill his/her prospective Sensei about who they trained with if/when they went to Honbu?


 
Hey Carol, it definately is his time in my opinion.  Hatsumi Senseis classes are packed with people. (*it is like nothing you have ever seen before*)  Every class is like a *major* seminar for most instructors.  He has new people coming in every day from around the world.  He simply could not check everyones basics.  So training with the Japanese Shihan is very, very important to get your basics checked.


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> Often one and the same person........
> 
> Hatsumi really does not have the time IMO to go over the basics. Some of the shihan I have trained with will point them out. I think that the guys that only go to Hatsumi want the rank that only he can give and avoid having any faults pointed out to them so they can keep thier illusion of mastery.


 
I've seen that in my own system...

People would ignore very senior instructors or barely pay attention to what they had to say -- or even worse, fail to practice basics at all, then go to a clinic or training session with the chief instructor, and be frustrated when they can't pick up what he's teaching.

If you want to make the best of your time with THE top instructor -- you need to put in the time with the people he's taught so that he doesn't have to repeat the same lesson forever!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

jks9199 said:


> I've seen that in my own system...
> 
> People would ignore very senior instructors or barely pay attention to what they had to say -- or even worse, fail to practice basics at all, then go to a clinic or training session with the chief instructor, and be frustrated when they can't pick up what he's teaching.
> 
> If you want to make the best of your time with THE top instructor -- you need to put in the time with the people he's taught so that he doesn't have to repeat the same lesson forever!


 
Hey Jim,

Glad to have you here.  You are definately right on in your assessment in my opinion.


----------



## Don Roley

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Carol, it definately is his time in my opinion.  Hatsumi Senseis classes are packed with people. (*it is like nothing you have ever seen before*)  Every class is like a *major* seminar for most instructors.  He has new people coming in every day from around the world.  He simply could not check everyones basics.  So training with the Japanese Shihan is very, very important to get your basics checked.



It is not just that. I think that it would be a waste of his time and he would never get around to teaching that which only he can teach. There are guys that can teach you how to use your knees here in Japan. But they can't teach you the things they go to Hatsumi to learn. If Hatsumi had to keep going over how to make a simple punch every time a new group of people came in he would never pass along anything to his senior students.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Don Roley said:


> It is not just that. I think that it would be a waste of his time and he would never get around to teaching that which only he can teach. There are guys that can teach you how to use your knees here in Japan. But they can't teach you the things they go to Hatsumi to learn. If Hatsumi had to keep going over how to make a simple punch every time a new group of people came in he would never pass along anything to his senior students.


 
Hey Don,

You are right on that.  Imagine if he had to teach and reteach the basics at each class with anywhere from fifty to a hunderd or so people.  Fortunately the system is in place that you can go and train with Soke and learn the techniques in a way that only he can present them.  Then go and train with the Shihan who break it down and also give you a good grounding in the fundamental techniques.


----------



## Don Roley

Don Roley said:


> I can imagine people that live here for as little as a few months taking off part of Sunday. Many Japanese work on Saturday as well as the rest of the week and Sunday is a big day for dates. When Hatsumi was teaching from 9-11 on Sunday, leaving right after could mean that you were able to make a lunch date.
> 
> But the people that came for only a few weeks and then would take off right after class boggles my mind. I used to have the opposite problem. From where I come from it was hard to make it to class by 9 and so a few times I showed up only for Nagato's class. It blew my mind to see all the gaijin walking in the other direction as I got close to the dojo.



In case anyone is confused by the above, don't be. I am the one that was confused. Hatsumi's classes have always been from 11-1. But Nagato's classes used to go from 2-4. So going to training with both pretty much blew all of Sunday. That can be harsh on a relationship since Sunday is the one day a lot of Japanese have off. Now Nagato starts at 9 and sometimes the Quest guys show up after Hatsumi's class for some filming.

Sorry if this confused people.


----------



## Bigshadow

I am bummed, I was supposed to be in Japan this week and next, but I couldn't make it.   However, my instructor is there!  Lucky guy!    Don if you see Gary Mitchell throw him around a little.   He will probably be there with Rob R.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> I am bummed, I was supposed to be in Japan this week and next, but I couldn't make it.  However, my instructor is there! Lucky guy!  Don if you see Gary Mitchell throw him around a little.  He will probably be there with Rob R.


 
Hey Dave,

That is to bad.  I was supposed to be there last summer and had to watch everyone else go. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  That was tough.  Hopefully I will be getting over to Japan soon if everything works out right.


----------



## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> That is to bad.  I was supposed to be there last summer and had to watch everyone else go.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That was tough.  Hopefully I will be getting over to Japan soon if everything works out right.



So far, looks like summer of 2007 for me.  I am bringing my son along.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Bigshadow said:


> So far, looks like summer of 2007 for me. I am bringing my son along.


 
If things work on summer 2007 might be the time I am going as well.  By the way it is a good time to go as it is hot in Japan and in the past there were less people there. (though still crowded in comparison to what you are used to)


----------



## Bigshadow

Brian R. VanCise said:


> If things work on summer 2007 might be the time I am going as well.  By the way it is a good time to go as it is hot in Japan and in the past there were less people there. (though still crowded in comparison to what you are used to)



I haven't been yet, that will be first time.  I have been fortunate to have instructors that go regularly.  One actually moved there.

When I go, I hope to meet a few folks I have chatted with on here and Kutaki.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Dave when you do get over there it will be a blast!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

My aim is to be there next year in time to witness Hayes's visit to Hombu.:ultracool


----------



## Bigshadow

Nimravus said:


> My aim is to be there next year in time to witness Hayes's visit to Hombu.:ultracool



And get your picture taken with him?


----------



## Don Roley

Bigshadow said:


> I am bummed, I was supposed to be in Japan this week and next, but I couldn't make it.   However, my instructor is there!  Lucky guy!    Don if you see Gary Mitchell throw him around a little.   He will probably be there with Rob R.



Probably won't be able to see him. I just got home a little while ago to find out that my entire family is down with mumps. My wife didn't try to coantact me or I would have come home sooner. I cleaned up, fed them and took care of things. Now I am winding down as they all sleep. But I don't think I will be going anywhere for the next few days. Next time.


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> Probably won't be able to see him. I just got home a little while ago to find out that my entire family is down with mumps. My wife didn't try to coantact me or I would have come home sooner. I cleaned up, fed them and took care of things. Now I am winding down as they all sleep. But I don't think I will be going anywhere for the next few days. Next time.



Oooh, sorry to hear about that!   That sucks!  Best wishes to the family and get well soon!


----------



## bydand

Don Roley said:


> Probably won't be able to see him. I just got home a little while ago to find out that my entire family is down with mumps. My wife didn't try to coantact me or I would have come home sooner. I cleaned up, fed them and took care of things. Now I am winding down as they all sleep. But I don't think I will be going anywhere for the next few days. Next time.



Hope everybody gets better fast!  Thoughts and prayers to you.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Get everyone well Don.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Bigshadow said:


> And get your picture taken with him?


 
No, to light myself on fire so that he won't have to freeze.


----------



## kouryuu

Hey Don, here`s wishing you and your family the best, i hope they`re all better soon.


----------



## Don Roley

Bigshadow said:


> Oooh, sorry to hear about that!   That sucks!  Best wishes to the family and get well soon!





			
				bydand said:
			
		

> Hope everybody gets better fast! Thoughts and prayers to you.






			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Get everyone well Don.





			
				Kouryuu said:
			
		

> Hey Don, here`s wishing you and your family the best, i hope they`re all better soon.



Thanks guys. Between cooking, cleaning and such I still have a lot fo free time. I just can't go anywhere. So I am catching up on my reading and ranting on the internet as my kids watch TV and my wife rests in bed. I should be back in a few days.


----------



## Don Roley

Some advice for people coming to Japan.

When you are not in training, don't wear anything that IDs you as a Bujinkan member.

I just read on another forum that is looks like some people will try to pretend they are also Bujinkan members at a certain pub in an attempt to bamboozle some free drinks. Unless you want to get stuck with a tab, don't give them the chance. There are probably other ways that people can take advantage of you if you give them some information. It is just good OPSEC to not give away any information you don't have to by wearing a BBT t-shirt.

And speaking as a person that has to live here, if you absolutely have to act like a drunken, perverted idiot I prefer it if you don't call attention to the fact that you are in the Bujinkan.


----------



## bencole

Don Roley said:


> You know there is a story behind that warning. It was not a pre-emptive strike. And you know it is not a case of someone who has a little beer on his breath but otherwise acts normal.


 
As someone who has been there, I also think that Soke expects those training with him to have the balls enough to tell people to *LEAVE* if they are drunk, idiotic, and so on.

I think it is the responsibility of the dojo members to care for the sanctity of the dojo and the safety of others. If Soke were not there, I would approach these individuals and tell them that they could not train. If Soke were there, I would inform him that these individuals were drunk and that I was going to ask them to leave.

I think there are too many people who are too afraid to stand up to others who are being blatant idiots or dangerous to others. And I think part of our art is knowing when to step up and make the right call....

-ben


----------



## Shicomm

I'd like to reply to some of the posts on the subject of maximizing your training while you're there.
Off course ; you can fill any day with at least one training and quite a few times you'll have the chance to get even more sessions.
But is it really a "must do" to rush out and get all training there is? 

As i'm a beginner and confused most of the time about what is happening i tried to get 'the feeling' from a number of shihan and then stick to those wich felt the best.
It was very consufing in the beginning but as soon as i've 'cut down' my selection a bit , i felt much better and relaxed about my training.
My point:  getting as much training as there's available might work for some , but not for everybody.

---

A little tip also  
Try to write some stuff down that you noticed during class, even if you normally don't take notes! 
At first i tried to get everything on paper but i soon found out that it was very hard to 'get it all' ... 
Just short keywords or things that got your attention are very good to write down.
Even after a year i still got some very nice ideas and insights from the little blocks of keywords that i wrote down every day.


----------



## Don Roley

bencole said:


> As someone who has been there, I also think that Soke expects those training with him to have the balls enough to tell people to *LEAVE* if they are drunk, idiotic, and so on.



I do not know if that is wise. If I know the people, I would take them aside and point out what a huge problem their actions would cause. But to take in on yourself to speak for Hatsumi seems a bit presumptious. It is his place, and unless I got specificly charged by him to do so, I would let he or those he has in positions of authority decide how to deal with the matter.



bencole said:


> I think it is the responsibility of the dojo members to care for the sanctity of the dojo and the safety of others. If Soke were not there, I would approach these individuals and tell them that they could not train. If Soke were there, I would inform him that these individuals were drunk and that I was going to ask them to leave.



The second part sounds very reasonable. The first would give me pause. But then again, unlike you I have not published a book with him. Maybe your relationship with him is a factor that does not apply to most of us in this situation.



bencole said:


> I think there are too many people who are too afraid to stand up to others who are being blatant idiots or dangerous to others. And I think part of our art is knowing when to step up and make the right call....



I can agree. But the problem is that aside from stating our opinion there is little we can do. Every situation I can think of where someone decided to be the spokesperson for Hatsumi's will, it turned out they were running their own game. As a result, it seems that Hatsumi is not really willing to let anyone do anything in his name. Once burned and all that. So there is really nothing we can do to stop all the many, many idiots we complain about in threads like this.


----------



## bencole

Don Roley said:


> But to take in on yourself to speak for Hatsumi seems a bit presumptious. It is his place, and unless I got specificly charged by him to do so, I would let he or those he has in positions of authority decide how to deal with the matter.


 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Every situation I can think of where someone decided to be the spokesperson for Hatsumi's will, it turned out they were running their own game.


 
I did not say that one should be "speaking for Hatsumi" in these situations. I *DO* feel that as seniors in the dojo we have an *OBLIGATION* to right wrongs within the dojo our of respect to Soke, though. Soke cannot and will not take responsibility for everyone, but if someone is disrespecting the dojo or posing a danger to others, then it is our responsibility to stand up and be men/women.

I believe that if you have a "good heart" and you make a solid choice, given the information at hand, to take steps to protect the dojo, Soke would only be pleased. I have *EVERY* reason to believe this.

Speaking frankly, I think that there are a lot of people would rather bury their heads in the sand and complain about things behind people's backs than actually handle the problem right then and there....

If senior members of the dojo are not willing to step up and take on responsibility for the dojo, then who will?

Sacha Baron Cohen (of "Borat" fame) was recently on NPR here in the States where he talked about how indifference can lead to terrible things. You can find the interview on www.NPR.org, btw, and I highly recommend it.  

The exact quote was of Ian Kerschl, a historian of the Holocaust, saying, "The path to Auschwitz was paved with indifference." 

I am certainly not equating allowing drunks to train at Hombu as the equivalent of Nazi rule, but the general point is that the unwillingness to stand up to true wrongs can lead us to bad places.

In general, I think that if a little more reprimanding was used by people who know better that *MOST* of the problems that people rant about on the net (i.e., Trash at Hombu, Rudeness in Noda, etc.) would go away. But so long as people are not *TOLD BY THEIR ELDERS* that what they are doing is wrong, they can always claim ignorance. And they do. And the problems get worse and worse....

As an example, Don, you say when someone is being lascivious on the train platform, you would rather duck away and hide. Why not turn to them and say, "Not cool, dudes. You don't need to understand Japanese to know that you are being a twerp. Moreover, you are dirtying Soke's home turf. Not cool at all...."

The Japanese woman would know, without understanding English, that you had stepped in to point out the wrong of the comments, which would (1) provide a clear signal to her that not all foreigners are like those guys (i.e., your expressed goal of hiding) and (2) *PREVENT* future recurrences (i.e., impossible if you hide).

I think there are far too many senior gaijin in Japan who would rather complain about things than actually do anything about it.

YES! YES!!! We *SHOULD NOT HAVE TO TELL PEOPLE TO USE THEIR BRAINS*, but they don't.

And ranting about it without being willing to fix the problem is not the best action *AS A SENIOR IN THE DOJO.*

YES! YES!!! There *ARE* even more senior people than you (and the other gaijin), *BUT* they don't speak English and don't understand where the perpetrators are coming from.

This has nothing to do with people "speaking for Hatsumi", it has to do with "doing what's right", "respecting the dojo", "respecting Hatsumi-sensei", and "ensuring the safety of all."

If a senior student at Hombu was aware of someone training drunk, and someone ended up hurt as a result of that drunkenness, I would hold those seniors partially responsible. No amount of claiming, "It's not my responsibility" would absolve those individuals of being spineless weenies and being poor examples of leadership within the dojo.

If our seniors are not willing to look out for the safety and sanctity of the dojo environment, then who will?

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

Every time I've asked other people who've seemed the most interested in sabotaging what their training partner is trying to do, what exactly it is they're doing, I've been reprimanded by the instructor in charge and told it's not my business. Furthermore, two years ago, I was at a large seminar in which a 15th dan picked up a kid about 15 and asked him to tell everyone whom he was, where he came from and what thoughts he had about training - at which point he seemed noticeably uncomfortable. I was inches away from standing up and telling him to leave the kid alone and ask me instead, but I guarantee that if I had, I would not have been a welcome guest to those organizers anymore.


----------



## bencole

Nimravus said:


> Every time I've asked other people who've seemed the most interested in sabotaging what their training partner is trying to do, what exactly it is they're doing, I've been reprimanded by the instructor in charge and told it's not my business. Furthermore, two years ago, I was at a large seminar in which a 15th dan picked up a kid about 15 and asked him to tell everyone whom he was, where he came from and what thoughts he had about training - at which point he seemed noticeably uncomfortable. I was inches away from standing up and telling him to leave the kid alone and ask me instead, but I guarantee that if I had, I would not have been a welcome guest to those organizers anymore.


 
In other words, we've bred a culture of wimps and ostriches....

-ben


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

All about maintaining the status quo, I guess. 
I say something that's true to a group of seven or eight people, and all hell breaks loose. 15th dan does the same when teaching a group of 23 people - no sweat. 

I honestly don't know what I'm going to do about all the hypocrisy I witness on a daily basis.


----------



## Don Roley

bencole said:


> In other words, we've bred a culture of wimps and ostriches....



Just following the will of our superiors.

The Japanese are not big on direct confrontations. When the folks showed up to class drunk, the people in charge did not toss them out or even speak to them. Their revenge is a bit more indirect. They withhold comments and corrections. I remember when someone took a group photo with a few other people while class was going on. I looked at the teacher teaching and he told me to leave them alone. "You can't expect them to act any better," I was told. 

So if the teacher won't say anything, and indeed tells us not to cause conflict and disharmony in class, there really is not much we can do.

Pointing out and complaining about behavior in general without names seems to be ok. Maybe someone can learn from such talk. But pointing out specific names or confronting them seems to cause the Japanese more concern than the acts themselves.

I mean, you know that maniac who was forced out of the Bujinkan a few years ago. You know what he did. So did Hatsumi. But not once was there a direct confrontation. Instead, every time this sociopath showed up we did soft and slow training. That idiot hated that type of training and eventually left the Bujinkan as everyone hoped.

Now if someone in charge was not going to tell him face to face that his actions were not acceptable, I do not see how anyone else can take the risk of being censured for standing up for what is right.


----------



## kuntawguro

Several things you do not want to do if you go to Japan to train. Do not  give a gift  or a tip ( a typical Filipino tradition)- the person recieving that gift is honor bound to do the same in returnand can make them feel really uncomfortable. Next, do not wear black uniforms or uniforms with many patches on them. It is in very poor taste. I toured Japan in 1992 by invitation. When I showed up to the dojo for our gathering I wore my Filipino outfit ( after all- I was invited to share Filipino arts) I was not let into the dojo- "in order to enter here you must wear a clean white  uniform" I was told by the ranking student. Now, I took real offense to this, after all, if i invited you to my club , I would not expect you to take off your Karate uniform and buy one of mine. When Kai Sensei found out what happened, he personally appologized for the insult. Still, I was really ticked off. I am good enough to  be invited, i was good enough to do 4 demos for them, yet I was not good enough to enter their club for a meeti - is how i took it.


----------



## bencole

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I mean, you know that maniac who was forced out of the Bujinkan a few years ago. You know what he did. So did Hatsumi. But not once was there a direct confrontation. Instead, every time this sociopath showed up we did soft and slow training. That idiot hated that type of training and eventually left the Bujinkan as everyone hoped.


 
Yes, but that is because with that individual's personality, fire would breed more fire. Extinguishing the fire by cutting off the air was a more appropriate way to handle that keg of gun powder.



Don Roley said:


> Just following the will of our superiors.


 
If that is so true, then why did one of the Shihan physically impede entry of someone into Hombu with Soke telling the man that he was not welcome? Soke and this Shihan *PHYSICALLY* prevented someone from stepping up into Hombu dojo, and told the individual to leave.

On a personal side, Soke has instructed me more than once to tell people to shut up, clean up after themselves, behave, and other such reprimands. In my personal experience, Soke expects people to be willing to tell people that they are doing bad things.

If Soke cares about people using real weapons in the dojo due to their danger (and I *KNOW* that you have heard his admonitions about weaponry), then why would he knowingly allow the equivalent of a weapon (i.e., a drunk black belt) to be in the dojo training? 

The Soke that I know would not. Some of the Japanese Shihan might. I certainly wouldn't, and would have no hesitations about throwing them out of the dojo.



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> When the folks showed up to class drunk, the people in charge did not toss them out or even speak to them.


 
I assume this was not Soke, and that Soke was not aware of the situation. It sounds like the "style" of "certain Japanese" but certainly not "all Japanese." ;-)

The next time you see Soke, ask him. Tell him the situation and say, "If I thought it was best for the safety of the dojo that I ask someone to leave, would it be appropriate to do so?" I'll bet you a Sam Adams that he would....

-ben


----------



## Don Roley

kuntawguro said:


> Several things you do not want to do if you go to Japan to train. Do not  give a gift  or a tip ( a typical Filipino tradition)- the person recieving that gift is honor bound to do the same in returnand can make them feel really uncomfortable.



No, actually the custom of _Omiyage_ is a long one and it is rather expected that someone give a small gift in certain situations.

You might want to check out what section this thread is in. Your comments about black uniforms gave me a chuckle.


----------



## kuntawguro

Well, I agree that  black uniforms are standard in your art as well as mine- but the average run of the mill DOJO  will nail ya


----------



## Don Roley

bencole said:


> I assume this was not Soke, and that Soke was not aware of the situation.



On both accounts, no.

When Hatsumi tells me to do something, I will. But sometimes fire breeds more fire. Best IMO to follow the example of the Japanese. If they won't do anything to stop certain things, I am not going to take it on myself to stop them. I can give general advice, tell people willing to listen that their behavior is not good and try to steer things in a productive way. But that is about all I have been charged with.


----------



## Don Roley

kuntawguro said:


> Well, I agree that  black uniforms are standard in your art as well as mine- but the average run of the mill DOJO  will nail ya



The thing is, we don't care. This is a thread directed toward people in our art. What other people should or should not wear, etc in other arts is not a concern for this thread.


----------



## kuntawguro

Don Roley said:


> The thing is, we don't care. This is a thread directed toward people in our art. What other people should or should not wear, etc in other arts is not a concern for this thread.


sumimasen


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

To my knowledge, at least one Japan resident has been explicitly told that he is not welcome to train with a certain shihan anymore.


----------



## Don Roley

Nimravus said:


> To my knowledge, at least one Japan resident has been explicitly told that he is not welcome to train with a certain shihan anymore.



Yeah, I think I know the case you are talking about. But that shihan has also told others not to come back as well. Those that were told to go away and never come back had to really, really work at it.


----------



## Logan

I am not sure how others feel (or if this has been mentioned before) but in my experience, when training in Japan bring Yen - don't rely on cards or especially traveller cheques. You can find machines/places to accept them but it can be a hassle (especially if you are new). Japan is such a safe country that you can practically leave your wallet on a counter, go to the toilet and come back to find it still there (though it isn't advised!). The police system is so effective that people seem to go out of their way to return lost items to avoid suspicion on their part (and they are generally nice)*.

I am not sure for Bujinkan stuff but for other dojos they only accept cash as payment fees when you want to join/train/buy stuff.

*Except for bikes. People like "borrowing" your bike in certain areas of the big cities.


----------



## stephen

Logan said:


> The police system is so effective that people seem to go out of their way to return lost items to avoid suspicion on their part (and they are generally nice)*.





I wonder if it's a general cultural attitude rather than the efficiency of the police system. I've read stories, particularly concerning non-Japanese, that when confonted with serious crime have a particularly difficult time dealing with the police.


----------



## Don Roley

stephen said:


> I wonder if it's a general cultural attitude rather than the efficiency of the police system. I've read stories, particularly concerning non-Japanese, that when confonted with serious crime have a particularly difficult time dealing with the police.



Just a general note- try to avoid the police in Japan if at all possible.

There are officers here that are *not* racist, corrupt and/or thugs with guns. But don't count on being able to find one.


----------



## Don Roley

Shawn Grey over at Kutaki just posted this and I was tempted to get up on my chair and cheer.



> Hi All,
> 
> I'm writing this after noticing a significant increase recently in the number of times that people are requesting training-related information from me. Specifically, requests from people that I either don't know and/or have a very minimal or non-existent personal relationship with. Between my Kutaki PM Inbox and my email mailbox, it is beginning to take up a significant amount of time to respond to everything, and I'm realizing that I have to draw the line somewhere before I get completely steamrolled. Last week I got an email from someone whose name/email I didn't recognize and really don't think that I've ever met or conversed with before. The email went something like this:
> 
> "Hello,
> 
> I was wondering if you could send me the full training schedule of all of the Bujinkan Shihan in Japan. Please send this to both my work and personal email addresses, included below, as sometimes I can't check my home email from work and vice-versa.
> 
> Thank you,
> 
> <name>"
> 
> This to me looks like a purchase order for a product (Only in this case there was no 'purchase') rather than a request for a favour from someone you've never met.
> And needless to say, it went straight to the trash bin with no response.
> This was an extreme example, but the number of similar messages I've been getting has really been on the rise lately. This is largely my own fault, as I've taken the position of making myself very available for questions and such over the last 10 years. The Internet also has I think given people the expectation that they should be able to get a large amount of information for little or no effort. However, an Internet webserver has no feelings and doesn't mind if you don't have a personal relationship with it and hit it a dozen times a day with requests for information. Most human beings, on the other hand (at least the ones that I know), are a bit different.
> 
> There are a number of my sempai here that keep a very low online profile simply due to the fact that if they don't, they get overwhelmed with these kind of messages, and I'm beginning to see the wisdom in that kind of "best distance make" attitude. I've basically come to the point where I too have to take a step back and let people put more effort into getting information themselves, for the sake of my own sanity. Otherwise I'm soon going to end up feeling like an automated information-disposal machine. So from now on I'm basically going to be ignoring messages from people asking for information or favours unless I've had at least one or two verbal conversations with them that involved personal topics like relationships or work. In other words, if there is some kind of personal relationship being formed.
> 
> I think that the Bujinkan is very much about forging personal relationships and that a relationship should be in place before too much is expected from the other party, whether that person is Soke, a Shihan, or a net-junkie like myself - or basically anyone else for that matter. That's just a natural aspect of human relationships, in my opinion. Not all Japan-residents may feel the same as I do. I know that some are more reclusive than I am and some are more open to questions. Looking around, I basically see that the longer the person has been in Japan, the less available they make themselves to people they don't have personal relationships with. And I think that's just because the longer that a person has been here, the more visitors from overseas they meet both in Japan and online, and the more people start to expect from them in the way of favours and information. Its natural that everyone has a limit as to how much they can do for other people without sacrificing more of their own time and energy than they can handle.
> 
> There are good resources for information in place that should help answer most questions. One of them I think is this site - the Search function is valuable if you don't find what you're after right away. Joji Ohashi's webpage is also valuable: http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/. Ohashi-san's email address is also on that site. If you can't find what you need on either Kutaki or Ohashi-san's page or in email correspondence with him, Japan-residents are an option, and some of them are very helpful, but please remember the value of the personal relationship when doing so. Otherwise you may quickly burn a bridge rather than build one.
> 
> Happy training,
> 
> Shawn



So folks, treat the guys living here like human beings instead of web sites that exist to serve you. It gets really annoying from time to time. And if they do help, *show some thanks!* I have said it before and it bears repeating- if you won't put in time to find the answer to a question you could find for yourself, I do not feel any onus to help you.


----------



## Shicomm

I'm more comfortable to reply to that over here then on the kutaki board.
I perfectly understand and respect the message given by Shawn but on the other hand i'm puzzled also.
On the one side it's not "done" to post training info ( times, locations and days ) on the net.
I still find that to be a bit odd but if that's the right thing to do then i'll respect that.
On the other side there is the point that you can ask for the info with those who know.

Off course ; it would be better to get that kind of info face to face.
But why should there be a "ban" on kindly asking for that info a bit less directly? 
Is it like ; 'a bit more respect would be nice' or 'don't be shy and ask straight ahead' ? 
I'm just puzzled even more ; it's "not done" to put it online but it's also "not done" to ask directly to some who might know.  :idunno:


----------



## saru1968

Kind of goes both ways.

I'm a terrible planner, i plan everything, every outcome as many possibilities as possible..don't cover all of them but as many as i can.

I remember planning my training trip to Honbu in Sept 2005.

Watching to gather information to plan my days and training trips to Honbu, Ayase and other Shihan's dojos.

Got a mixture of information ranging from all the training times of a particular Shihan to 'ask when you get here'.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I think people should not be put off if someone ask's them a question online. (lord knows I get a ton every day as well)   For myself it is simple in that I wish to help people as much as possible and really what is a few minutes here and there if I can help someone out. :idunno:  This then allows us to forge the beginning of a relationship that probably will be beneficial for both of us.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I respect anyone's personal decision not to answer emails because they are to busy or have to much going on and yet if you *can* help someone out why not! :idunno:  Just my rambling's as usual.


----------



## El Guapo-san

Sounds like Shawn should install an auto-repeater on that specific email address. I've had to work at getting info, but I now have people that I like to train with when I can make it over...


----------



## Bigshadow

Don Roley said:


> I have said it before and it bears repeating- if you won't put in time to find the answer to a question you could find for yourself, I do not feel any onus to help you.



I very much agree!  I get the feeling Joji is none too happy about frivolous emails either.  I was looking at his site one day and he has or had a paragraph to say about exhausting all other options before sending him emails.

Alot of people simply don't look and some do searches but a 5 second search doesn't count. 

Of course, when people ask questions, I do try to help, but not if they hand me a laundry list of things that I have to prepare and provide.  Quick questions are cool!


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

On "forming personal relationships"...

This *REALLY* needs to be turned into a thread of its own.


----------



## kuntawguro

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think people should not be put off if someone ask's them a question online. (lord knows I get a ton every day as well)   For myself it is simple in that I wish to help people as much as possible and really what is a few minutes here and there if I can help someone out. :idunno:  This then allows us to forge the beginning of a relationship that probably will be beneficial for both of us.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I respect anyone's personal decision not to answer emails because they are to busy or have to much going on and yet if you *can* help someone out why not! :idunno:  Just my rambling's as usual.



 Cause that is just the way you are  and the way it should be- if you can help and you have the information- share or make your terms. Don't just blow somebody off because you don't know them or haven't talked to them. Sure, it can be an annoyance- but this forum IS for the sharing of knowledge , resources , and friendships.
 Nuff said.


----------



## Don Roley

kuntawguro said:


> Cause that is just the way you are  and the way it should be- if you can help and you have the information- share or make your terms. Don't just blow somebody off because you don't know them or haven't talked to them. Sure, it can be an annoyance- but this forum IS for the sharing of knowledge , resources , and friendships.



You seem to think that other people have infinite time to spend in front of the computer to help other people. Some of whom, as Bigshadow pointed out, will not even do a little research of their own.

Seriously, I am considering just closing my accounts here and at e-budo after some of the demands I get in my PM box for information. I don't want to charge people for my help, but I am no one else's servent. And I resent being treated like one. I resent the implications in the post above that somehow it is my _duty_ to help other folks. I will if I want to- and if I don't want to *you have no right* to try to *order* me to do otherwise.

Am I making myself clear?


----------



## kuntawguro

Nobody said YOU had to- who cares anyway- I was just stating that  Brian is an open individual and that he actually tries to help- maybe not  everybody wants to be an *** like you


----------



## Bujingodai

Warm hugs all around.
Well I did try asking online since it seemed the most logical sense. After a bit I was Pm'd by a few people.
I did try and search a bit online for a while. I did use Jorji's site as well. It was useful.
After I got to Japan I just took the advice and asked then, there is no rush to class as you are more interested in your pillow.

I didn't order anyone though. I just a super polite guy 


Next time I go I will focus on the Shihans class and avoid Soke's personally. I will get more training in then.
I want to see Nagouchi since his class ran into my travel days.


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## LuzRD

why cant we all just get along? why must it bring out the ever looming...





Bigshadow said:


> *Mod. Note.
> Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> -David Russ
> -MT Moderator-*



Mr. Roley, i really hope you were just venting when you said "I am considering just closing my accounts here and at e-budo". that would be a loss for both sites! i really appreciate/enjoy your posts and threads here and on e-budo when im over there. Dont let the spoonfed masses drive you away from what you enjoy, if not for yourself then do it for the rant thread! that thing eems to have a life of its own.


----------



## Bigshadow

LuzRD said:


> Mr. Roley, i really hope you were just venting when you said "I am considering just closing my accounts here and at e-budo". that would be a loss for both sites! i really appreciate/enjoy your posts and threads here and on e-budo when im over there.




I will second that!


----------



## jks9199

Don Roley said:


> You seem to think that other people have infinite time to spend in front of the computer to help other people. Some of whom, as Bigshadow pointed out, will not even do a little research of their own.
> 
> Seriously, I am considering just closing my accounts here and at e-budo after some of the demands I get in my PM box for information. I don't want to charge people for my help, but I am no one else's servent. And I resent being treated like one. I resent the implications in the post above that somehow it is my _duty_ to help other folks. I will if I want to- and if I don't want to *you have no right* to try to *order* me to do otherwise.
> 
> Am I making myself clear?


I understand where you're coming from...  but I hope you don't give in to the jerks.

It seems like lots of folks want someone to hand them the answers instead of telling them where they can find the answers.  And that's not limited to schedules at a dojo that are published in various places...  I used to be very active on a law enforcement forum, and every year, around the time final papers were due, we could count on the lists of questions that someone was supposed to get by interviewing a law enforcement officer, or questions that were clearly lifted from a test/assignment, like "describe the impact of Mapp v. Ohio on law enforcement."  Several of the regulars were also college instructors; I know at least one saw the homework assignment he gave show up!  Nobody wanted to hear "go make an appointment with your local police department" or "the case citation is..."  They wanted us to do their homework...

To me, if you advertise your involvement you do have to accept a certain likelihood that people will ask you about it.  But that doesn't give them a right to be rude, or to demand anything, or to expect more than simply being shown where to find the answers.  Were I to be planning a trip to Japan, I might ask one of you "which class/training session would you recommend to me" or "where can I find the schedule of classes at..." but -- first, that wouldn't entitle me to an answer!  Second... the most I would expect would be "look for X-shihan's classes" or "the schedule is posted at...", not a gilded itinerary and personal guide.

I hope none of you let yourselves be taken advantage of or abused!


----------



## Carol

Moderator Note:

*Attention all users:*
*
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Carol Kaur-
-MT Moderator-*


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## LuzRD

i quoted the wrong Mod, but i knew it was coming!!


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## saru1968

Don, if masses of 'PM's are botheriog you just turn them off the 'recieve private messages option' for awhile.


----------



## Zida'sukara

I can imagin that everything is getting to much for Mr. Grey if his mailbox is full with questions. I cannot look in his mailbox so I cannnot judge.
But I do also think he is a bit overreactive with his example. The person could have written it in a more nicer and flowerly way but than Mr. Grey would have received a very long question.

_"This to me looks like a purchase order for a product (Only in this case there was no 'purchase') rather than a request for a favour from someone you've never met."_
I dont think the persons question is that bad personally, it is just short and direct.

_"This was an extreme example."_
If this is already extreme than the rest must be very nice and friendly in my eyes.

I do think that the person behind the question is a person that should have looked more himself to find his information but this is not an impolite question, it is just as short as possible. He started the question with "I was wondering" that indicates to me that the person did not mean to be impolite at all, for that person Mr. Grey is also a stranger.

Opinions vary from person to person, I would not have reacted to this as Mr. Grey but I dont know how many people are requesting for his help. But it is obvious in my eyes that he must feel overworked when this question is upsetting him this much. 

So my advise for Mr. Grey is not to worry about it to much and if the amount of questions are that bad than he should perhaps put a filter on it or block it for a while. I dont think somebody wants to upset him on purpose so there is no need to be angry about it. If it is getting to much than he should protect himself, by being angry/frustrated about it, he will only harm himself.


----------



## Zida'sukara

Little note: There are people from different cultures here. Please also keep that in mind. Something that is normal in another country can be not normal somewhere else.

Also when somebodies mother language is not english than it might happen that that person is using a word(s) that gives another turn to a reply than really meant or typing a very short question that might not satisfy the receiver but the intention could have been otherwise. So getting frustrated about it is not nice for both sides.


----------



## Tez3

Zida'sukara said:


> Little note: There are people from different cultures here. Please also keep that in mind. Something that is normal in another country can be not normal somewhere else.
> 
> Also when somebodies mother language is not english than it might happen that that person is using a word(s) that gives another turn to a reply than really meant or typing a very short question that might not satisfy the receiver but the intention could have been otherwise. So getting frustrated about it is not nice for both sides.


 
This is very true, the problem with the internet..forums and emails.. is that you cannot determine any emotion behind the words, unless you write lol after every sentence you mean to be amusing or use those funny little widget things to denote what you mean, it can be hard going! we have problems translating UK English to American English sometimes! ( still you want to try Scottish English, Geordie English, Welsh English, manchester English etc etc lol)


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I think that what is *frustrating* for people going to Japan is
that there are no times, dates, location, fees for training posted for training with the Japanese Shihan. (imagine traveling around the world, spending big bucks and not knowing your itinerary)  I also understand why these are not posted and yet this does cause alot of questions to be asked routinely that would otherwise be avoided.  I know
that when I went over it was simply put to me do not worry about 
it just show up at the Hombu and we will go from there.  Since
then I have been approached maybe thirty times (or more) via email etc.
with someone asking the same question.  I try to recall from my
notes who was teaching and when and where and pass it along
*as best I can*.  Fortunately Mr. Ohashi's website has Soke's 
schedule and you can at least plan around that. (That webiste is
a great tool for Budo Taijutsu practitioner's :http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/ )

Many people in the Bujinkan have had to go through *extreme* measures to gain some knowledge so I can certainly understand their reluctance to just easily part with some of it or feeling annoyed when someone asks for
something that they could find possibly by doing research.  However, since we all represent the Bujinkan and we are all Buyu's let's all try and help each other *when we can*.  *Yet* if it becomes *to much* then do not worry about it and take care of *your own life* (and your loved ones) as that is what is *most important*.


----------



## Kreth

I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for someone who fails to do any research on their own and demands to be spoon-fed information. Would you call up your local library and say, "I'm too lazy to come down and look through that card catalog thingy. Please select some good science fiction books for me and call me back at home and at work with a list of good titles. Oh, and I need some reading material for this weekend, so get cracking." ??


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Kreth said:


> I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for someone who fails to do any research on their own and demands to be spoon-fed information. Would you call up your local library and say, "I'm too lazy to come down and look through that card catalog thingy. Please select some good science fiction books for me and call me back at home and at work with a list of good titles. Oh, and I need some reading material for this weekend, so get cracking." ??


 
You know Kreth it is not so much a question of someone being lazy.  If someone is *really, really lazy* then just point them in a direction for them to do their research.  However it does seem that people are taking it to the other extreme at times and denying or putting up road block's to help which simply is not to cool in my book.  

The questions I have received have almost to a fault alway's been one were they required someone in the *know*.  Very few questions have been something that was easily obtainable over the internet.


----------



## bencole

Kreth said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, but I have no sympathy for someone who fails to do any research on their own and demands to be spoon-fed information.


 
I understand Kreth's argument, but the fact is that *THIS INFORMATION IS NOT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE*. As Brian said:



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think that what is *frustrating* for people going to Japan is that there are no times, dates, location, fees for training posted for training with the Japanese Shihan.


 
So long as Soke says that is the rule, it is up to "people in the know" to provide this information to those they deem appropriate to receive the information.

Sorry if that inconveniences you (or me or Shawn or Don), but you cannot pretend to take a place of authority (either as someone who trains regularly with Soke, or as someone who is informed about training or history or whatever) and *NOT* expect to get these types of emails.

If someone considers his "filter of acceptability" whether he knows you or not, then that is his perogative. An alternative perspective is that the evaluators could spend some time getting to know the individual and making a determination. It seems like the poster of the complaint just doesn't want to be bothered with helping people, which is not really fulfilling his role in the Bujinkan.

Granted, some individuals in Japan have never liked when I have insisted that they *HAVE A ROLE* to fill, whether they like it or not. As senior foreign members of the Bujinkan, they do. It's called _giri_ in Japanese, and you really have no choice in the matter. You do it, because it's your responsibility.

In the end, if one's loyalties are to Soke, and Soke has a rule that says that this information should *NOT* be posted for simply anyone to access and instead should be accessed on a "need to know" basis, then those doing the evaluation will use different heuristics.

One would hope that the heuristic was *BENEFICIAL* to the Bujinkan, rather than merely being *CONVENIENT* for the evaluator. 

-ben

P.S. I have certainly walked many miles in Shawn's shoes. I used to get scores of emails a week while I was in Japan regarding training. I answered them all and always did my best to assist the individual and serve Soke. That's part of training, imo. Just as some dojo in Japan will obligate certain people to mop the dojo, or wash all the stinky dogi, we in the Bujinkan have the _giri_ to answer inquiries from around the world. Running away from this obligation is truly inappropriate, imo. But that's just my opinion, and others will clearly disagree....


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I think you are pretty right on Ben.   We seem to be in agreement in our opinion on the matter.  Though I also respect anyone else's right to make their own decisions concerning this.


----------



## Bigshadow

Ben thanks for the post!  Fortunately I am not in a position where I get bombarded with email.  I do try to be helpful to those that ask, if they are sincere.  But most of my inquiries have been in person and my gut feel of their sincerity tempers my answers.  

I speak often about _on_ and _giri_ to folks and the importance of it.  That post has definitely affected my outlook on these matters. Thanks again.  

Of course in my previous posts I was referring to things in general not specifically Bujinkan information.


----------



## Tez3

Would all of this advice and gripes alike apply to all Martial Arts in Japan do you think?

Recently one of the universities over here released some statistics on the aplications they received from prospective students wanting to study with them. Nearly 300 wrote (in the same words) that since they were little and had burned a hole in their pyjamas with their toy chemistry set they had wanted to study chemistry, ah the power of the internet.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit

It's as easy as arranging a stay at Shawn's place during your trip to Japan.


----------



## bencole

Nimravus said:


> It's as easy as arranging a stay at Shawn's place during your trip to Japan.


 
I certainly hope this is not what Shawn was suggesting when he stated, "This to me looks like a purchase order for a product (Only in this case there was no 'purchase') rather than a request for a favour from someone you've never met."  If the standard of whether one "knows someone" is whether one is lining the someone's pocket, then we have a problem, Houston.

It's also hard to plan such a trip if you do not know (1) if there is going to be training on the days that you will be there, and (2) don't know where the training is in proximity to "Shawn's place."  Shawn's place is quite inconvenient if you want to train with Nagato-sensei or Nakadai-sensei, for example. But how would someone travelling to Japan *KNOW* this if s/he cannot ask anyone whom they have never met?!?

Oh, of course. Just agree to pay room fees and everything will be cleared up. :bang head:

This is not a solution that should be institutitionalized within the Bujinkan, in my opinion. A more appropriate (and less conflict ridden) solution is for senior foreign practitioners in Japan to fulfill their obligations to Hatsumi-sensei, not out of convenience or pecuniary reasoning, but because *ITS PART OF THE PACKAGE* of being a senior foreign practitioner in Japan.

-ben


----------



## Kreth

bencole said:


> I certainly hope this is not what Shawn was suggesting when he stated, "This to me looks like a purchase order for a product (Only in this case there was no 'purchase') rather than a request for a favour from someone you've never met."  If the standard of whether one "knows someone" is whether one is lining the someone's pocket, then we have a problem, Houston.


That's not how I read it at all. It sounded like he was saying that the "request" sounded like a detailed purchase order, only with no money being paid. I think Shawn does a lot to help out people coming to Japan, often with little or no thanks. I agree with what Don was saying. On my first trip, when I stayed at Shawn's place, I asked him if I could bring anything over for him that was tough to get in Japan, as my way of thanking him for his help.



> This is not a solution that should be institutitionalized within the Bujinkan, in my opinion. A more appropriate (and less conflict ridden) solution is for senior foreign practitioners in Japan to fulfill their obligations to Hatsumi-sensei, not out of convenience or pecuniary reasoning, but because *ITS PART OF THE PACKAGE* of being a senior foreign practitioner in Japan.


I agree with this to a point. But I can see the problem when someone like Shawn is spending large amounts of time responding to requests, some of them little more than demands. Hence my comment about the library. Sure, you can ask for information, but show some common courtesy.


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## stephen

If everyone is supposed to go to Japan every year or train with someone that does, doesn't that imply everyone should already have a source of information? That is, that person who DOES go already?


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## bencole

Kreth said:


> Sure, you can ask for information, but show some common courtesy.


 
I agree. 

-ben


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## Seattletcj

bencole said:


> Sorry if that inconveniences you (or me or Shawn or Don), but you cannot pretend to take a place of authority (either as someone who trains regularly with Soke, or as someone who is informed about training or history or whatever) and *NOT* expect to get these types of emails.



Good point Ben.
If you are very visable on the web, taking a very *authorative *  position on all things "officially" bujinkan...well, what do you expect ! 
Seriously...I get junk mail. It doesnt mean I delete my e-mail account.

draaaaama. :vu:


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## Brian R. VanCise

I think that we all need to remember that we need to be courteous, respectful and patient due to learning a Japanese art.  When dealing with seniors and needing a favor alway's ask politely and respectfully for information.  I do not see anything wrong with this and I would follow this protocal when dealing with anyone.


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## El Guapo-san

Ok, as someone who owns a commmercial website and who is learning the ropes from, well, folks in the know... here's a little tip. Make a general email with an automated responder. You program this o automatically respond to any email, and as a part of the email, you say "For information on training, please see X. I would like to help more, but due to the volume of email, cannot." For those in the know, you have a private email. 

Nobody feels ignored (everyone gets a response), even if it is just a form email. Supposedly for commercial sites, it's the immediacy of response that counts more than anything else. 

Sorry, Dita van Teese is on TV. She was supposedly hanging out with a friend of a friend at a concert of their's in LA a few months ago. Must go drool.


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## Shicomm

With a couple of days of training over here in Japan things become more clear now.
The best way to get your training info in Japan is to have a place to stay with a lot of nice people training.
They don`t have any problems on sharing that info and in the evening with a couple of beers you can even share some great experiences from the various classes.

If people would ask me where to find such place to stay i`d be happy to tell them about my experiences here


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## Brad737

I realize this is an OLD thread, but great info! Now off to google how much beer I can bring!


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