# Legal juji-gatame in Judo?



## Patrick Skerry (Sep 16, 2004)

Would this form of ude hishigi juji-gatame be legal in judo?

http://www.catchwrestle.com/pictures/historical_pictures/pages/legscissors_jpg.htm


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## Steve Scott (Sep 16, 2004)

Patrick,
I would say a definite no on both applications.  The first one would be a violation of the "dojime" ruling...squeezing the trunk with a leg scissors.  The second photo would not pass the referee's test because of the neck crank situation.  This second application would be pretty hard to get on a good judoka anyway I think.
Steve


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 16, 2004)

Steve Scott said:
			
		

> Patrick,
> I would say a definite no on both applications. The first one would be a violation of the "dojime" ruling...squeezing the trunk with a leg scissors. The second photo would not pass the referee's test because of the neck crank situation. This second application would be pretty hard to get on a good judoka anyway I think.
> Steve


Thank you Steve,

I was scanning the IJF website of their contest rules and couldn't find anything illegal about the second photo.  I never heard of the 'referee's test' before.  Are there any criteria for the referee's test?  Thanks again.


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## Saitama Steve (Sep 16, 2004)

Do Jime (the trunk squeeze) is an illegal move, but if the legs are wrapped around the opponent's waist and aren't constricting breathing, or squeezing the opponent's ribs, then it's a legal move. fair play. 

The second picture though is kubi kansetsu waza (neck lock) and that is strictly a no-no in modern judo. In the old days, it would be allowed, but not now.


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## Steve Scott (Sep 16, 2004)

Steve,
Good point about the dojime, but knowing judo referees (and not just in the United States), I would be very wary about trying that form of juji gatame.  Anything that remotely resembles an illegal move will get you in trouble. 

Patrick,
The "referee's test" phrase is just something I came up with.  I meant to say that a referee wouldn't view it favorably.
However, judo referees have to go through some fairly thorough testing to get the various levels of referee certification.  I was a national referee for a while but enjoyed coaching much more.  

Steve Scott


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## bignick (Sep 16, 2004)

Patrick...i thought you were a referee...shouldn't you know whether or not this technique is legal?


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## auxprix (Sep 16, 2004)

I know for a fact that the 2nd picture is illegal. You cannot put pressure on the spine when applying a choke. That is why your palm has to face you in Kataha-jime.

The first one, I think Is a gray area. I don't think that it is explicitly illegal, but since Kani Basami is illegal, I don't know how you would get someone into that position.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I know for a fact that the 2nd picture is illegal. You cannot put pressure on the spine when applying a choke. That is why your palm has to face you in Kataha-jime.
> 
> The first one, I think Is a gray area. I don't think that it is explicitly illegal, but since Kani Basami is illegal, I don't know how you would get someone into that position.


Hello Auxprix:

I find both the age of the photographs and the second photo both intriguing.

The second photo could almost be used as a different type of juji-gatame, even though the wrestler is applying it as a scissors.

But as Steve stated, it might not pass the referee test.  The only way to find out is to do it in shiai, and see what happens.  I cannot find any thing against it in the IFJ rulebook on the IFJ website.

What do you think?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> Patrick...i thought you were a referee...shouldn't you know whether or not this technique is legal?


Hello Bignick,

If and when you ever achieve Nikkyu or Ikkyu  in your Zen Judo you should be doing some referring at local tournaments, definately by shodan.

It is situations as shown in the second photograph that is why they have 1. full time shimpans, and 2. referree clinics.


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## bignick (Sep 17, 2004)

how long have you been refereeing?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> how long have you been refereeing?


Only a few times, just the basics at local shiai.  We had an international certified referee last week officiating at the tournament I was doing some ref work.  He filled us in.  At our level, it is basically on the job training.  I have never been to any ref clinics yet.  But certified refs usually want you to be at the sandan level before you shimpan full-time.


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## bignick (Sep 17, 2004)

what organization do you belong to?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> what organization do you belong to?


You're getting off topic, how many times have you performed juji-gatame?


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## bignick (Sep 17, 2004)

quite a few...and what does that have to do with the topic?


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> quite a few...and what does that have to do with the topic?


Is it or is it not a legal juji-gatame based on your experience with that particular kansetsu waza?


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## bignick (Sep 17, 2004)

obviously not...your scissoring the body...which is illegal...or your putting pressure on the neck...which is also illegal...you should know that


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## auxprix (Sep 18, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> obviously not...your scissoring the body...which is illegal...or your putting pressure on the neck...which is also illegal...you should know that


I agree. If you have ever really refed, you would know right away that the second application is definately illegal. Why don't you tell us what organization you belong to? It would give your opinions some sort of validity. As of now, at least for me, they have none.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 18, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I agree. If you have ever really refed, you would know right away that the second application is definately illegal. Why don't you tell us what organization you belong to? It would give your opinions some sort of validity. As of now, at least for me, they have none.


Gentlemen (particularly auxprix and bignick):

To help you reply with a more informed decision -

1.) Please re-examine the two photographs:

http://www.catchwrestle.com/pictures/historical_pictures/pages/legscissors_jpg.htm

2.) please re-read sensei Steve Scott's interpretation on post #2:

"the second photo would not pass the referee's test because of the neck crank situation."

3.) Please re-fresh yourselve's with the IJF referee's rules:

http://www.ijf.org/rule/rule_referee.php

Prohibited Acts, article 27, (21) To apply leg scissors to the opponents trunk (Dojime), neck, or head, (scissors with crossed feet while stretch out the legs.)

It now comes down to the 'referee's decision': I respectfully do not share sensei Steve Scott's opinion, and certainly not bigick's nor auxprix's, regarding the second photo: my referee's test is that the shime-waza's of sankaku-jime or jigoku-jime or hadaka-jime or kataha-jime put more pressure on the neck than that demonstrated in the second photograph, which, in my referree's test, is putting pressure on the upper shoulders more than the neck. So I feel that Prohibited Acts (21) does not apply to the second photograph.

Any and all informed and intelligent opinions welcomed regarding my call!


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## bignick (Sep 19, 2004)

it's not a matter of putting pressure on the neck...but of bending the neck...which that one is obviously doing


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> it's not a matter of putting pressure on the neck...but of bending the neck...which that one is obviously doing


Interesting, you've changed your opinion from "putting pressure on the neck" to "bending the neck" which is obviously not being done in the second photo.

Again, shime waza's do a lot more "neck bending" and putting pressure on the neck than demonstrated in the second photograph.

So in my 'referee's test' that is an allowed application of juji-gatame!


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## bignick (Sep 20, 2004)

well...you slap that on at the next shiai and we'll see how it turns out for you


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> well...you slap that on at the next shiai and we'll see how it turns out for you


Well, that is one of the purposes of this forum, to discuss the merits or pro's and con's of that particular application without learning the hardway.  And as Sensei Steve Scott pointed out, it is a judgement call.  Some shimpans will let it go, and some shimpans will gig you for it.  Just like happens at all shiai's!  You should know this?


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