# Where did the real Karate go?



## The Prof

Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.

The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort. 

No matter how good you are with the weapon its the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win. 
My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?  

 "Bring n the barf bags."


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## Andrew Green

Umm...  

 Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.

 That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show.  Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.

 But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.


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## Scout_379

The Prof said:
			
		

> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.
> 
> The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.
> 
> No matter how good you are with the weapon its the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
> My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?
> 
> "Bring n the barf bags."


 No lie, I have never seen a competition like that in my life. except clips here and there on the internet, usually on some humour site.

   The "real deal" is still kicking around, believe me. You just have to go to the right tournaments I think.  

 Kata competition is a beautiful thing to watch when its done seriously. I have no idea how it could've become so warped like you described.


  imo, this thread is begging for...disagreements, lets keep it clean


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## RRouuselot

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Umm...
> 
> Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.
> 
> That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.
> 
> But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.


 
   Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate ones knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as kime = focus, power, speed, and spirit


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## The Kai

For the most part competion has gone down the tubes.  Shi**y forms, nonsense weapon katas, poor attitudes.


2 things can be done
scout mentioned real deal tourny's - well where and when?

Get enough of your students and like meinded friends to attend and swing the black belt meeting to martial arts
Todd


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## RRouuselot

The Kai said:
			
		

> For the most part competion has gone down the tubes.  Shi**y forms, nonsense weapon katas, poor attitudes.
> 
> 
> 2 things can be done
> scout mentioned real deal tourny's - well where and when?
> 
> Get enough of your students and like meinded friends to attend and swing the black belt meeting to martial arts
> Todd


    ........or #3.....take the _"martial posers"_ out back and beat the crap out of them.


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## The Prof

Thank you for your response. What I did not add was this: Many tournaments, especially some of the big ones have added self defense as one of the competitions. They state in their rules that the self defense must be legitimate defensive techniques. Then when I see the stuff they are doing, it just blows my mind. The judges who obviously do not know fact from fiction judge on theatrics not reality.

Now for the record, please know I dont go looking for self defense at any tournament. I used to go to judge and see old friends. But as time went on I became more disillusioned with what I was seeing. I started to become judgmental and I did not like that, so I just stopped going to tournaments.

If you had ever been to the US Open in Orlando, up to just a few years ago, for about ten years my Niseido Ju Jitsu Demonstration team performed at the Night of Champions event. If you had caught any of the action, you would better understand what I mean.  From time to time they still show us on ESPN2 replays. I guess that I just miss the real stuff.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Umm...
> 
> Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.
> 
> That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.
> 
> But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.


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## The Prof

Thanks for the response.  You are right, "the real deal" is still around.  In my neck of the woods it can be found in the AAU Karate tournaments.  





			
				Scout_379 said:
			
		

> No lie, I have never seen a competition like that in my life. except clips here and there on the internet, usually on some humour site.
> 
> The "real deal" is still kicking around, believe me. You just have to go to the right tournaments I think.
> 
> Kata competition is a beautiful thing to watch when its done seriously. I have no idea how it could've become so warped like you described.
> 
> 
> imo, this thread is begging for...disagreements, lets keep it clean


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## The Prof

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art.  Performance arts will get you killed on the streets.  "Survival is an everyday reality."  




			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate ones knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as kime = focus, power, speed, and spirit


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## The Prof

Thank you for understanding my point and pretty much verifying what I and many others know.  Maybe one day things will revert back to "the good old and honorable ways."





			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> For the most part competion has gone down the tubes. Shi**y forms, nonsense weapon katas, poor attitudes.
> 
> 
> 2 things can be done
> scout mentioned real deal tourny's - well where and when?
> 
> Get enough of your students and like meinded friends to attend and swing the black belt meeting to martial arts
> Todd


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## The Prof

I think I sent the wrong reply to you, Sorry.  I love your reply to my thread.  Thanks.  Again, please forgive my mistake. 




			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> ........or #3.....take the _"martial posers"_ out back and beat the crap out of them.


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## The Prof

If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality." 



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Umm...
> 
> Why would you be looking for "real" self-defence in a sport that IS a performance art.
> 
> That is what forms competitions are about, putting on a good show. Don't care for that, maybe Muay Thai, K-1, UFC, Pride, etc. are more your thing.
> 
> But forms as a competitive event and Whatever you mean by "real" do not mix.


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## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality."


 I think you meant this fro someone else.....I never said that it was performance art.


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## The Kai

One of the main problems is that the McDojo can throw dozens of pre teen black belt on the judging panel, not to mention untold numbers of of color with a stripe belts.

Our dojo does'nt train for tournament fighting, we adapt but don't play the game.

Maintain a presence out there to keep them honest

AAU huh??  Was this the deal Scout was refering to??

Matbe I need to check it out
Todd


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## okinawagojuryu

Dear Riccardi Sensei , 

     I know what you mean , as far as these so called tournaments are these days , it's a joke . It should be called a circus , not a tournament ; or perhaps a Gymnastics tournament . I used to compete in the AAU , back in the 90's , but they we're pretty much biased to Shotokan stylists . Being a Goju stylist , I wouldnt do too well . I heard they've opened up seperate divisions now though , which would be a better idea , I think , but , it's all political . I've stopped competing several years ago , & now just train . I think part of the problem is , most of the people judging are just ignorant , their not educated about other styles , so they do'nt know what to look for . I used to compete in the FLMA , as well ; and I've brought it up in meetings , & in private to the past president , that we should try to educate eachother on what to look for , in different styles forms . Alot of people say , oh look for balance , timing , good solid stances , etc . But , what might be correct in my style , might not be correct in yours . So , we need to educate each other . I've noticed you too are in FL , maybe we should get together to put together a new tournament circuit , for us traditionalists ,  educate the judges , & make sure it's not biased to one paticular style . 

David Somers
www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu
www.okinawagojuryu.org


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## Mark70Z

David...I'm all for your recommendation to start a different circuit (or maybe just a few traditional tournaments) that are for TMAists.  I too am in FL, and my son (he's 13) competes within a few of the organizations here in FL(KICK/USA, NFMAA); not really for points, but for the fun of competing.  He does Shorin Ryu and we've had to adjust his form so he'd have a chance at placing within these tourney's.  We've found that most judges don't know the correct stances, proper placement of punches, etc. to make a good judgment of the kata.  I guess it was either that...or he wasn't doing too well LOL!  Also, we've competed the last few years at the US Open (NASKA) in Orlando, and very few competitors did traditional kata's in the traditional kata division.  By the way...none of the individuals that did do a traditional kata placed.  If your not ranked/seeded you don't really have a chance.

As a side note...he just started learning Sepai, which his instructor learned from a Goju Ryu practitioner.  This coming year (2005) he's going to try and compete with this kata in a few tournaments.  He has been performing the kata Seisan.


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## Andrew Green

The Prof said:
			
		

> If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art. Performance arts will get you killed on the streets. "Survival is an everyday reality."


 They can call themselves whatever they like, as can you.

 "Art" has many meanings.

 And "Martial Arts" is more commonly associated with the theatrical methods then anything else anyways, so it would seem that it is not they that lost the fight for the name 

 A judged, Choreographed routine is about putting on a show, nothing more.  Doesn't matter what it is called, that is the goal.


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## okinawagojuryu

Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick ! 
Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all . 
I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !

David


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## Andrew Green

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew .


 We aren't talking about the word "martial"  we are talking about the term "Martial Arts".  Common Usage dictates meaning far more then what the roots of the word/term are.  Many dictionaries will also define "Martial Arts" as being Asian in origin...


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## Simon Curran

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick !
> Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all .
> I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !
> 
> David


I have to say that I couldn't agree with you more, a family member recently recorded a Discovery Channel production they called XMA, and I must admit that it got my goat.
Everyone gets into the martial arts for their own reasons, and if that persons motivation is competition, then that is fine by me, I personally don't need the ego trip of trying to show the world I am the best, I am quite comfortable with myself to not need it.
What really iritates me though, is that this kind of junk is what substantiates the public pre-conception that "All that martial arts stuff don't really work...." etc.
If this is the public presentation of the martial arts, then who can blame people for thinking that way?
Some of the stuff shown in this tv show is much more akin to gymnastics than it is to martial arts, again I have no problem if that is what a person wants to do, that is entirely up to tham, but for me I still like to prioritise the "martial" over the "art"


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## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> Thanks for the response. You are right, "the real deal" is still around. In my neck of the woods it can be found in the AAU Karate tournaments.


 Here is a former student of my teacher who is now a Member, Board of Directors & Member, Coaching Committee for the AAU. 

http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/boggs/


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## RRouuselot

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> 1) They can call themselves whatever they like, as can you.
> 
> "Art" has many meanings.
> 
> 2) And "Martial Arts" is more commonly associated with the theatrical methods then anything else anyways, so it would seem that it is not they that lost the fight for the name
> 
> A judged, Choreographed routine is about putting on a show, nothing more. Doesn't matter what it is called, that is the goal.


 1) And by doing so can look totally stupid. Someone that does jujutsu cannot call what they do Arnis. (but I guess according to you they can because you are just arguing semasiology and not really the issue)

 2) According to who? You?  here is what I found in my dictionary:
*Martial Arts: *  a system of combat and self-defense, for example, judo or karate, developed especially in Japan and Korea


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## Mark70Z

David:

In regard to tournaments...if "all" the tournaments become gymnastics competitions, then where are these young people going to go to see traditional MA performed?  Doesn't anyone have a traditional karate tournament out there?

Even tough it has been mentioned that there are different groups within a tournament, i.e. traditional, creative, Xtreme, they all bleed into one...and that's a bunch of fancy nothing...


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## okinawagojuryu

I used to compete in the AAU , at that time they were a lil' biased towards Shotokan . I've heard they've improved . You might wanna ck them out . I heard now they have seperate divisions for each style , so it might be better now . I know the Karate division of the AAU has their own site , but I dont know it off hand , but if you type in AAU Karate , I'm sure you can find it .

David


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## Mark70Z

David:

Thanks!  I'll check it out...


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## Mark70Z

David:

I looked at the AAU Karate website and the closest tournament to FL in 2005 would be in Houston, TX.  I guess they may list more in the future.  This tournament is just the karate portion; the AAU also has Taekwondo, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Wrestling.

From just the initial looking at the website, I guess you have to be a member of the organization to compete.  I guess it's not like open tournaments.  At this point I don't think I'm willing to travel that far just to check it out.


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## okinawagojuryu

They do have tournaments in FL , but not many . Here is the contact info , for the AAU directors of FL :

Florida


Regional Director Dave Roth
P.O. Box 2427
Vero Beach, FL 32961
772-563-9333 (O)
Email: floridakarate@hotmail.com 

Florida Gold Coast Douglas Stein
12299 SW 112 St.
Miami, FL 33186
305-373-4900
305-373-6914 (Fax)
Email: dstein@ananialaw.com

You might also wanna ck out The USANKF , here's their site : http://www.usankf.org/ , not sure if they have anything in FL though .

David


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## The Prof

Dear Sensei Sommers,

Sorry for the late response.  Re: AAU, I do believe that they have cleaned up their act. (at least in my neck of the woods)  The AAU knows that in order to remain or be successful, they must have the support of all styles.

Yes, it is sad when judging is biased or when the judges have absolutely no clue of what they are looking at.

There are some good tournaments out there, but none of them will ever run perfect.  Open tournaments especially will bring the best and the worst of karateka.

Have a great and prosperous New Year.

Prof.


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## takezo

The Prof said:
			
		

> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents...
> 
> ...Will we ever return to the real deal again?
> 
> "Bring n the barf bags."


*Yow!*, sounds like another old guys lament. However, I qualify as an 'old guy', so I know and am disgusted by the same things. I've watched it continue to slide down hill since 1964 and it wasn't real good then.

Where did the real Karate go? Simple: *Out the window when the almighty dollar crept in!*

Want a return to reality? Host a tournament without entry fees, judges, or throphies. Let them all spar, do kata, and demonstrate self defense techniques with nothing more than some old guys to keep the younger tempers in line. That's the way we used to play sandlot baseball. We picked even teams and if they weren't even we adjusted. We played for hours and solved the disputes without having to call the police to separate out of control parents. Organized ball (i.e., LittleLeague) wasn't even a close second.

Likelyhood is you won't have too many attendees but you will most likely develop some new life long relationships.

Just my opinion. Have a nice day.

Mark Galvin


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## okinawagojuryu

Well , we dont do tounaments , but we do train together , no fee's , politics , or bs . Just training , learning , & making new friends . Ck out the link , on my site : http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu/kenkyukai.html

David


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## takezo

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Well , we dont do tounaments , but we do train together , no fee's , politics , or bs . Just training , learning , & making new friends . Ck out the link , on my site : http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu/kenkyukai.html
> 
> David


Looks like you have captured the essence of how a martial art should be practiced. No distractions, just training.

Best of luck,

Mark Galvin


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## okinawagojuryu

Galvin San  , 

    Thank you very much ! We do our best to preserve , & promote traditional Okinawan/Japanese Martial Arts . Are you too located in FL ?
Also , Mark70Z , do you train , as well , or is it just your son ? If you do , would you be interested in comming out sometime , or Prof. , to our get together's/training sessions ? 

David


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> ........or #3.....take the _"martial posers"_ out back and beat the crap out of them.


artyon:


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## Mark70Z

David:

I personally don't train in karate, just my son.  Thanks for asking.  I do enjoy watching the karate classes.  I sure hope he sticks with it...


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## okinawagojuryu

What part of FL are you in ?

David


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## takezo

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Galvin San ,
> 
> Thank you very much ! We do our best to preserve , & promote traditional Okinawan/Japanese Martial Arts . Are you too located in FL ? ...
> David


Unfortuneately no.  I'm in the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia (Auburn, Northeast of Sacramento).  Little to far to travel even for what looks like a good group of guys to work with.

Mark Galvin


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## marshallbd

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate ones knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as kime = focus, power, speed, and spirit


Beautifully put, this is what I aspire to be able to do in my Kata someday.....for me and my own sense of accomplishment. As you can see, I feel I have many more years of practice to reach that level.  Until then I will just practice,practice,practice and then practice some more.... :asian:


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## marshallbd

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> I have to say that I couldn't agree with you more, a family member recently recorded a Discovery Channel production they called XMA, and I must admit that it got my goat


I saw that show on Discovery Channel.  It featured Mike Chantarabut (Sorry if I mangled his name).  That stuff sure is flashy, but dont see where alot of it is pratical.  It was fun to watch though.  Have you seen the XMA on ESPN?  It is even worse than that!  Looks alot like the "Break Dancing" from the 80's with a few kicks or punches thrown into the spins.  But the breaking competitions are fun to watch!


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## Mark70Z

David:  I live in Jacksonville, FL.  There are a ton of MA places in Jax., a lot are listed in the phone book and some are just word of mouth.  From our original seach for MA schools; there weren't an abundance of good ones.  I met his instructor at one of the local open tournaments when my son first started karate.  I believe the only MA his instructor has been involved with was Shorin Ryu.


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## still learning

Hello, My first karate teacher always said tournments were for making money and not about real fighting. It was for sports and points fighting was just a game of tag and trophies. Just a contest for fun and sport. Today people want more showmanship for the tournments, just like the movies today.

 Real karate is still around but not seen in to many tournments. Keep your stuffs real at your training dojo. Let the tournments be fun and money making projects. We all like to be entertain today. You can always make your own form of tournments too? We have just among our own branches. Mostly for the younger students who love to challenge themselves in tournments.

 Where did real karate go?....It is still here and not use at tournments, after all ,tournments have rules...?....Real Karate...no rules.....Aloha


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## Han-Mi

There are more kids in martial arts and the acrobatics keep there attention easier because it is flashy. I am only 20 yrs old, but I have the same oppinion that this mixture of MA, acrobatics and dancing that they call XMA, is merely performance and not MA at all.  I recently quit competing in the traditoinal forms of a circuit because they will not split traditional forms from open forms in the grand champion rounds... It is nearly impossible to compete against the flips and tricks now days. I just wish I could get those guys in the ring for 1 round, but they NEVER do sparring of any sort in competitions.


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## okinawagojuryu

I'm glad that other young people feel the same way as I ( Do I still qualify as young-32?, lol ) . As long as we keep thinking the way we do , real Karate wont go away , just wont be at those circus's , oh , I mean tounaments . Just keep on training , & our generation will be the one that will lead to the truth . 

David Somers
www.okinawagojuryu.org


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## hardheadjarhead

Fumio Demura had an interesting thing to say about sport karate kata:  "I wished my students trained kata that much," or words to that effect.  His point was that these folks train their forms about two and a half hours a day.  That's for _one_ form, and maybe their tie breaker.

As for the deplorable behavior of the participants...judges, parents, competitors.  I agree.

Regards,


Steve


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## brothershaw

The thing is kids today watch movies and see the flashy stuff, in addition Wu-Shu which poopularized and promoted by the chinese govt ( which is different from traditional kung fu ) is also popular. NOw all these schools want to pay rent and keep the kids coming back so make a karate version of wu-shu., in addition to adding some cardio kick- boxing. 
   I saw the discovery channel special on XMA or whatever they called it and see it as just a wu-shu rip off. Dont get me wrong it takes a tremendous amount of skill and work but its not really old school Chinese martial arts or more traditional hard nosed karate.
    Although I am now into chinese and filipine arts I did spend some time in kyokushin and shorin ryu so i have some knowledge of what I am talking about. Honestly most people no matter what they study dont want to train any harder or rougher than they have to, or longer than they have to or even practice stuff at home so they can do it better when in class. And I dont consider myself "hardcore".


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## okinawagojuryu

I really do'nt think training hardcore , if you will is traditional , in Karate . In Okinawa , the training I've been exposed to is very laid back . It is pretty much one on one , or small groups . I think that either this hardcore type of training is either , the Japanese approach , or perhaps a western approach to Karate . We have to remember , that much of what is taught within the US , was brought here by many former G.I.'s , that trained for a short period of time , perhaps 2-3 years . So they came back to the US , as former GI's , and have taught PT from within the military , & the military attitude was added , as well . So , alot of people that brought Karate to the US , back in the 60's never returned to Okinawa , & have been teaching basic Karate , which they trained for a short time , over 30+ years ago . I think , not only are they gonna forget material , but their gonna forget approach to training , as well . Just my 2 yen worth .

David Somers
www.okinawagojuryu.org


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## Ken H

I have very limited experience in karate (studied Shorin Ryu for a few years MANY years ago) but have a feeling the answer to this question is most likely similar to the the answer of "Where did the real Judo go?".

Tournaments and the techniques favored by their participants have overshadowed the more subtle aspects of the true art and dictated what is being taught in the majority of dojos across the country.  Sad to say alot of instructors just don't care about preserving the true essence of the traditional art and will "customize" their style to fit whatever the new flavor of the month is or whatever whim the student with $60 is looking for.

There are still plenty of good schools and instructors out there though, they're just not advertising on the giganto-double-splash-page in the yellow pages which is just well and good by me...

-Ken


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## Ken H

okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Galvin San ,
> 
> Thank you very much ! We do our best to preserve , & promote traditional Okinawan/Japanese Martial Arts . Are you too located in FL ?
> Also , Mark70Z , do you train , as well , or is it just your son ? If you do , would you be interested in comming out sometime , or Prof. , to our get together's/training sessions ?
> 
> David


How often do you get together?  I'm down in Palm Beach County, but it would be well worth the trip to meet some good people and do a few roundhouses (must dust the cobwebs off of my legs first...)!
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





-Ken


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## okinawagojuryu

Hey there Ken , we are actually having a get together in Tampa on Sunday the 23rd , if you're interested , please lemme know . If you want more info about the group , please ck out this link : http://www.angelfire.com/fl5/okinawagojuryu/kenkyukai.html

David


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## Ken H

David,

Thank you.  Will contact you through the link you provided.

-Ken


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## Scout_379

whoa whoa whoa! back up a sec. maybe I don't watch enough tv, but somebody PLEASE, tell me that the "X" in XMA doesn't stand for extreme!:rofl:

   almost a joke post, but seriously, this creeps me out!:erg:


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## digitalronin

They posted this at a different forum that caters more the RBSD crowd, but its very funny.  check it out.


http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/images/casting.mpeg


----------



## brothershaw

Would you try to attack  someone who could do that? lol


----------



## The Prof

You Are correct, they can call themselves what ever they want. But in a life or death situation, I would call them dead.  Self defense it just that, it's not that very entertaining movie crap that will protect a person or their loved ones.  

Yes, "Art has many meanings." Self defense has only one.  Survival is an every day reality.

Fact is fact and fiction is fiction, just as a cat is a cat and a mouse is a mouse.

This is just an opinion of one old warrior who has been there and done that.

The Prof





			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> They can call themselves whatever they like, as can you.
> 
> "Art" has many meanings.
> 
> And "Martial Arts" is more commonly associated with the theatrical methods then anything else anyways, so it would seem that it is not they that lost the fight for the name
> 
> A judged, Choreographed routine is about putting on a show, nothing more. Doesn't matter what it is called, that is the goal.


----------



## The Prof

Hi Sensei,

You are so right about bunkai.  Very few of those theatrical martial artists have little or no clue as to what bunkai is or how it is applicable to their kata.
Take the bunkai out of kata defeats the purpose of the kata and waters down the style.

While I am not a Karateka, I am not ignorant when it comes to good Karate or Kata.  I love to see a good performance and thoroughly enjoy the application of bunkai.

But to hell with that stuff, it takes too much discipline and probably adds time between ranks.  You know we can't have that.  Not good for the ego.  

Yes sir, the old way is still the best way in so many ways.  Yours was a great response.

Blessings, :asian:

The Prof



			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick !
> Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all .
> I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !
> 
> David


----------



## The Prof

Hi Sensei,

You are right on target with your answer.  But I guess that we should try to understand that in the life of a "fantasy martial artist" looking stupid does not count, after all, it not real.

Blessings,:asian:

The Prof



			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) And by doing so can look totally stupid. Someone that does jujutsu cannot call what they do Arnis. (but I guess according to you they can because you are just arguing semasiology and not really the issue)
> 
> 2) According to who? You? here is what I found in my dictionary:
> *Martial Arts: *a system of combat and self-defense, for example, judo or karate, developed especially in Japan and Korea


----------



## The Prof

Hi Sensei,

David Roth is the best bet for information on this coast.  He was my very first Black Belt Student in Niseido Ju Jitsu and Judo here in Florida.  He is what sold me on the AAU.  He is quite a particular guy.  He played all the games and finally had enough.  

I know that David is very strick when it come to fairness in judging, respect, and for following the rules to the letter.

The Prof





			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> They do have tournaments in FL , but not many . Here is the contact info , for the AAU directors of FL :
> 
> Florida
> 
> 
> Regional Director Dave Roth
> P.O. Box 2427
> Vero Beach, FL 32961
> 772-563-9333 (O)
> Email: floridakarate@hotmail.com
> 
> Florida Gold Coast Douglas Stein
> 12299 SW 112 St.
> Miami, FL 33186
> 305-373-4900
> 305-373-6914 (Fax)
> Email: dstein@ananialaw.com
> 
> You might also wanna ck out The USANKF , here's their site : http://www.usankf.org/ , not sure if they have anything in FL though .
> 
> David


----------



## The Prof

Hi Sensei,

Thanks for the info on Shihan Boggs.  Yes for sure is is part of the "real deal" in the martial arts community.  He has quite an impressive MA resume.

Blessings,

The Prof




			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here is a former student of my teacher who is now a Member, Board of Directors & Member, Coaching Committee for the AAU.
> 
> http://www.usjujitsu.net/bio/boggs/


----------



## The Prof

Hi Mark,

Great response, "out the window with the almighty dollar." Actually that pretty much sums up this whole thing.  What a great answer.

Blessings,
The Prof




			
				takezo said:
			
		

> *Yow!*, sounds like another old guys lament. However, I qualify as an 'old guy', so I know and am disgusted by the same things. I've watched it continue to slide down hill since 1964 and it wasn't real good then.
> 
> Where did the real Karate go? Simple: *Out the window when the almighty dollar crept in!*
> 
> Want a return to reality? Host a tournament without entry fees, judges, or throphies. Let them all spar, do kata, and demonstrate self defense techniques with nothing more than some old guys to keep the younger tempers in line. That's the way we used to play sandlot baseball. We picked even teams and if they weren't even we adjusted. We played for hours and solved the disputes without having to call the police to separate out of control parents. Organized ball (i.e., LittleLeague) wasn't even a close second.
> 
> Likelyhood is you won't have too many attendees but you will most likely develop some new life long relationships.
> 
> Just my opinion. Have a nice day.
> 
> Mark Galvin


----------



## The Prof

Hi Ken,

I have sent you a personal message.  I hope to hear from you.

Blessings,

The Prof


			
				Ken H said:
			
		

> I have very limited experience in karate (studied Shorin Ryu for a few years MANY years ago) but have a feeling the answer to this question is most likely similar to the the answer of "Where did the real Judo go?".
> 
> Tournaments and the techniques favored by their participants have overshadowed the more subtle aspects of the true art and dictated what is being taught in the majority of dojos across the country. Sad to say alot of instructors just don't care about preserving the true essence of the traditional art and will "customize" their style to fit whatever the new flavor of the month is or whatever whim the student with $60 is looking for.
> 
> There are still plenty of good schools and instructors out there though, they're just not advertising on the giganto-double-splash-page in the yellow pages which is just well and good by me...
> 
> -Ken


----------



## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> Hi Sensei,
> 
> You are so right about bunkai. Very few of those theatrical martial artists have little or no clue as to what bunkai is or how it is applicable to their kata.
> Take the bunkai out of kata defeats the purpose of the kata and waters down the style.
> 
> While I am not a Karateka*, I am not ignorant when it comes to good Karate or Kata. I love to see a good performance and thoroughly enjoy the application of bunkai.
> *
> The Prof



   Just out of curiosity what kind of bunkai do you see in Karate kata? Can you give some specific examples from specific kata?


----------



## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]You Are correct, they can call themselves what ever they want.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]This is just an opinion of one old warrior who has been there and done that.
> 
> The Prof



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I have to disagree with this. I for one would not want people of questionable nature and ethics associating themselves with the name of my school or my teachers system. This has actually happened in the past and cause a good deal of trouble. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]I am just wondering what you define as warrior.could you explain please?


----------



## The Prof

Greetings From South Florida Sensei,

The term Warrior probably has different meanings to many. For me it symbolizes the days when our arts were not diluted or compromised. In the late fifties through the early (I may be wrong with this date here) eighties we all worked and fought hard for the dignity of our Sensei, Dojo and our "Martial" Art. We were proud but not egotistical.  Dojo/syle rivelry were always present, but respectful.

I will turn sixty-six this year. I am a bit slower not quite as strong as I was in my youth. Although I am a non smoker and a non drinker, I suffered three heart attacks, the first at the age of thirty-six, the third at age forty-one. Each time it was right out of the hospital and back onto the mats. (Probably a foolish thing to do)

Over these past fifteen years I have had both rotator cuffs repaired, I have developed progressive degenerative disc disease with a total collapse of L 4 & L 5. (after eight years it is finally healing itself) However, I have not slowed down, I still teach every class and learn when somene is teaching. 

Doctors have told me since the first heart attack that I would die if I did not stop my activity. Well, Im still here and two of those doctors are not. Both were younger than I. 

I refused to let these little annoyances or road blocks in my life defeat me. I am in a heck of a better shape than many who are considerably younger. Now no one else may agree, but in my mind, I hope that it qualifies me as an Old Warrior.

Also sir, you said, *"I for one would not want people of questionable nature and ethics associating themselves with the name of my school or my teachers system." *I agree with you 100% as that has been my policy always. While we are cordial and polite, we make sure that we do not even take pictures with them or do anything that can be construed as supporting or legitimizing their stuff.

Our philosophy can be found on our web site. There we have our Code of Bushido and Code of Ethics.

I hope that I have answered to your satisfaction.  

Be Blessed,

The Prof


----------



## The Kai

Remember the taped up wrists and hands, or ankles and feet,you just never missed a class-or an oppurtuniy to get the edge on classmates or sharpen up for a tournament!
Todd


----------



## The Prof

Good Morning,

I sure do and still do. Before we had Ace Bandages, we used to use strips of car tire tubes or bicycle tubes. We were kind of crazy in some ways. My first dojo (1962) had no heat in the winter and of course no A/C in the summer. I paid a big rent of $40.00 per month.

And you sure are right, missing a class was never an option. Many arguments with my wife over the dojo. But the dojo always won out.  Tournaments were far and few in between.  In NYC we had one or two a year.  Many times we had to travel to Philadelphia or New Jersey and sometimes even Chicago.

Regards,
The Prof


----------



## The Kai

Up here in the early 80's there was a lot of tourny's.  Every corner school rented out a church basement andthere you go!  Great way to get some experience

Todd


----------



## The Prof

Hi Todd,

I don't know if it's me, but somehow back when we had those types of clubs the attitudes seemed different.  When students now days see their Sensei involved in cut throat tactics (bad mouthing other schools and styles) I think they turn out to be a different type of sudent.

Around these parts, it seems that the students from those church & rec center  clubs etc, seem to have a more enjoyable time.

Regards,  :asian:

Prof


----------



## Blind

As you can see I am not a karate guy but I like this thread, for my no cents worth has anyone here watched the XMA special, can see x ray views as they dance etc?? I am not American so I don't remember the channel,discovery maybe, anyway,a friend of mine gave it to me. Fantastic stunts no doubt, but more like aggressive ballet/gymnastics than combat. The guy who was trying to win his title back again actually said "Sparring is the application part of what I do, but I can't stand it because I really hate getting hit in the face"!!!!???? Maybe it is not his fault but the comentary was making him out like a killing machine. 

Bonus points to the guys wanting to keep it real!!


----------



## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> Greetings From South Florida Sensei,
> 
> 1) The term Warrior probably has different meanings to many. For me it symbolizes the days when our arts were not diluted or compromised.
> 
> 2) In the late fifties through the early (I may be wrong with this date here) eighties we all worked and fought hard for the dignity of our Sensei, Dojo and our "Martial" Art.
> 
> 3) We were proud but not egotistical. Dojo/syle rivelry were always present, but respectful.
> 
> The Prof


 
    1)Thats a nice romantic notion but the martial arts have seen that sort of problem for hundreds of years. 

 2)First off I wonder why you would need to fight for the dignity of your senseitechnique talks and BS walks. People respect that.

 3)Again, a romantic notion but not at all historically accurate. Numerous articles have been published about dojo rivalry and petty squabbles that have taken place of several hundred years. 







			
				The Prof said:
			
		

> Hi Todd,
> 
> I don't know if it's me, but somehow back when we had those types of clubs the attitudes seemed different.
> 
> 1)When students now days see their Sensei involved in cut throat tactics (bad mouthing other schools and styles) I think they turn out to be a different type of sudent.
> 
> 2) Around these parts, it seems that the students from those church & rec center clubs etc, seem to have a more enjoyable time.
> 
> Regards, :asian:
> 
> Prof


 
    1)Same as I mentioned beforeits been going on for a loooooong time. 

 2)Actually I think the students that train in the Mini-mart dojo have the best time. They dont have to train in a serious art, they get rank out the wazoo for a year or so trainingand so on.







			
				The Prof said:
			
		

> Good Morning,
> 
> 1)  My first dojo (1962) had no heat in the winter and of course no A/C in the summer. I paid a big rent of $40.00 per month.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> The Prof


 


 1) I have yet to see a dojo in Asia that has A/C or Heating..mine included. I am not sure why that would be considered crazy.





			
				The Prof said:
			
		

> Greetings From South Florida Sensei,
> 1) I will turn sixty-six this year. I am a bit slower not quite as strong as I was in my youth. Although I am a non smoker and a non drinker, I suffered three heart attacks, the first at the age of thirty-six, the third at age forty-one. Each time it was right out of the hospital and back onto the mats. (Probably a foolish thing to do)
> 
> Over these past fifteen years I have had both rotator cuffs repaired, I have developed progressive degenerative disc disease with a total collapse of L 4 & L 5. (after eight years it is finally healing itself) However, I have not slowed down, I still teach every class and learn when somene is teaching.
> 
> Doctors have told me since the first heart attack that I would die if I did not stop my activity. Well, Im still here and two of those doctors are not. Both were younger than I.
> 
> I refused to let these little annoyances or road blocks in my life defeat me. I am in a heck of a better shape than many who are considerably younger. Now no one else may agree, but in my mind, *I hope that it qualifies me as an Old Warrior.*
> 
> 2) Also sir, you said, *"I for one would not want people of questionable nature and ethics associating themselves with the name of my school or my teachers system." *I agree with you 100% as that has been my policy always. While we are cordial and polite, we make sure that we do not even take pictures with them or do anything that can be construed as supporting or legitimizing their stuff.
> 
> 3) Our philosophy can be found on our web site. There we have our Code of Bushido and Code of Ethics.
> 
> I hope that I have answered to your satisfaction.
> 
> Be Blessed,
> 
> The Prof


 
 1)I dont see how it qualifies you as a warrior. Everyone has illness sooner or later in their life. I guess my ideal for what constitutes a warrior is a bit different than yours. 



    2) I noticed you had more than a few photos taken with Chuck Norris and some other people.   Sorry but to me that reeks of whats called brand association I know one other guy that has built his whole reputation of getting photographed with famous people.  One photo that did bother me was the one with the man that you claim tried to hurt one of your dojo members and got beat up for it. To me that doesnt show much class on your part and is disrespectful to him. In this age of people suing anyone for anything I surprised he didnt try to sue you for defamation of character or something along those lines.


----------



## The Prof

Good Morning Sensei,

That old tradition of just training, learning and making new friends for the most appears to be a lost art in itself.  I never though about it until you said it.  In retrospect, I do miss those days, they were the very best of my MA years.

Sensei, If I can ever get over to Tampa, I would enjoy the opportunity of spending some time with you and yours.  I have viewed you web site and was pleased with what I saw.  

Enjoy the chilly morning.

Regards,  :asian: :asian: :asian:
Prof



			
				okinawagojuryu said:
			
		

> Galvin San ,
> 
> Thank you very much ! We do our best to preserve , & promote traditional Okinawan/Japanese Martial Arts . Are you too located in FL ?
> Also , Mark70Z , do you train , as well , or is it just your son ? If you do , would you be interested in comming out sometime , or Prof. , to our get together's/training sessions ?
> 
> David


----------



## okinawagojuryu

We're having a get together this Sun at Ft.Desoto Park 1pm , if you're interested .

David


----------



## The Prof

Good Evening Sensei,

I am in Lake Worth, about six minutes from Palm Beach International Airport.  March will be my eighteenth year as a Floridian.

Regards,

Prof



			
				The Prof said:
			
		

> Good Morning Sensei,
> 
> That old tradition of just training, learning and making new friends for the most appears to be a lost art in itself. I never though about it until you said it. In retrospect, I do miss those days, they were the very best of my MA years.
> 
> Sensei, If I can ever get over to Tampa, I would enjoy the opportunity of spending some time with you and yours. I have viewed you web site and was pleased with what I saw.
> 
> Enjoy the chilly morning.
> 
> Regards, :asian: :asian: :asian:
> Prof


----------



## The Prof

Greetings Sensei,
I cannot help feeling that you are wishing to prove a point or something. I don't know what you are getting at. I am not one for romantic notions. I am a serious student of the MA and I will not get into a long distance debate with you or anyone else. I just want some decent dialogue and exchange of friendly ideas with others.

Please be assured that the pictures of myself, C.N., & B.W., is not what I built my reputation on. Mine was built upon honesty and integrity. I am one of the very few people who received all his ranking (from Ikyu to current rank) from the same sensei. I am not self promoted. Now that may not be a big deal to anyone else, but it means something to me and my students.

You don't know squat about me but yet seem to be very critical of me. Okay, you win. I loose.

If I've previously written something that has offended you, I was unaware and I apologize.
Blessings,

Prof.





			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)Thats a nice romantic notion but the martial arts have seen that sort of problem for hundreds of years.
> 
> 2)First off I wonder why you would need to fight for the dignity of your senseitechnique talks and BS walks. People respect that.
> 
> 3)Again, a romantic notion but not at all historically accurate. Numerous articles have been published about dojo rivalry and petty squabbles that have taken place of several hundred years.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1)Same as I mentioned beforeits been going on for a loooooong time.
> 
> 2)Actually I think the students that train in the Mini-mart dojo have the best time. They dont have to train in a serious art, they get rank out the wazoo for a year or so trainingand so on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I have yet to see a dojo in Asia that has A/C or Heating..mine included. I am not sure why that would be considered crazy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1)I dont see how it qualifies you as a warrior. Everyone has illness sooner or later in their life. I guess my ideal for what constitutes a warrior is a bit different than yours.
> 
> 
> 
> 2) I noticed you had more than a few photos taken with Chuck Norris and some other people. Sorry but to me that reeks of whats called brand association I know one other guy that has built his whole reputation of getting photographed with famous people. One photo that did bother me was the one with the man that you claim tried to hurt one of your dojo members and got beat up for it. To me that doesnt show much class on your part and is disrespectful to him. In this age of people suing anyone for anything I surprised he didnt try to sue you for defamation of character or something along those lines.


----------



## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> 1) I am not one for romantic notions.
> 
> 
> 2) Please be assured that the pictures of myself, C.N., & B.W., is not what I built my reputation on. Mine was built upon honesty and integrity.
> 
> 
> 3) You don't know squat about me but yet seem to be very critical of me.
> 
> 
> Prof.


 
    1)Your comments that I pointed out earlier are most definitely romantic musings and not based on historical fact. 

 2)The photo that stuck out was not the ones of you posing with MA celebrities but the one of the man with the messed up faced that you claim was the handy work of someone in your dojo. I found it to be a repulsive display machismo and false bravado (not to mention childish) that is contrary to the so called Bushido code you claim to adhere to and it also speaks volumes about your character. 

    3)I know what you post and what is on your website.


----------



## TSUKIMASTER

I agree wit the Prof.  This new sport karate, while it looks cool is a ticket to the hospital.  The martial arts were designed originally and I presume still are supposed to be used to better the self.  In the arts you are competing against yourself, not the guy next to you. Sport karate teaches the practitioner to be concerned with how many trophies you have, not how much better of a person you have become. 
    Every legitimate master in thw world rolls over in his grave when sport karate is shown, some of the arent even dead yet.


----------



## RRouuselot

TSUKIMASTER said:
			
		

> I agree wit the Prof. This new sport karate, while it looks cool is a ticket to the hospital. The martial arts were designed originally and I presume still are supposed to be used to better the self. In the arts you are competing against yourself, not the guy next to you. Sport karate teaches the practitioner to be concerned with how many trophies you have, not how much better of a person you have become.
> Every legitimate master in thw world rolls over in his grave when sport karate is shown, some of the arent even dead yet.


 
 I have to agree.....I don't know what  the "prof" has in the way of karate knowledge since it's not stated on his website or on his profile....but that makes no difference in the "big picture". 

   If you have trained in MA for a while you can recognize true MA technique in almost any art. Miyamoto Musashi said to know one thing well is to know 10,000.it applies here.


----------



## The Prof

Greetings Sensei,

I'm sorry that you found that picture repulsive. No one has ever has ever registered a negetive comment before. It's not false bravado, the peson who put the site together thought that it was a good idea, I didn't care one way or the other. Maybe I should have. 

Please know that you have made what I believe to be a valid point and it is well taken. I am always open to suggestions and constructive comments. Yours was constructive and I agree, the picture will be removed by mid week.

Kindest Regards and Thanks.

Prof.




			
				RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)Your comments that I pointed out earlier are most definitely romantic musings and not based on historical fact.
> 
> 2)The photo that stuck out was not the ones of you posing with MA celebrities but the one of the man with the messed up faced that you claim was the handy work of someone in your dojo. I found it to be a repulsive display machismo and false bravado (not to mention childish) that is contrary to the so called Bushido code you claim to adhere to and it also speaks volumes about your character.
> 
> 3)I know what you post and what is on your website.


----------



## RRouuselot

The Prof said:
			
		

> Greetings Sensei,
> 
> I'm sorry that you found that picture repulsive. No one has ever has ever registered a negetive comment before. It's not false bravado, the peson who put the site together thought that it was a good idea, I didn't care one way or the other. Maybe I should have.
> 
> Please know that you have made what I believe to be a valid point and it is well taken. I am always open to suggestions and constructive comments. Yours was constructive and I agree, the picture will be removed by mid week.
> 
> Kindest Regards and Thanks.
> 
> Prof.


 
   Maybe I was too abrupt before, but from my point of view someone that is a 10th dan and has trained as long as you doesnt really need to pound their chest by putting a photo up someone that used poor judgment and got trashed by a student of yours. Its beneath you. 

   The guy in the photo made a stupid mistake and obviously paid for it. I didnt think he should continually be ridiculed by having his photo put up for all and sundry to see. 

   Thanks for understanding.


----------



## The Prof

Hi Sensei,

Yeah, maybe you were a little too abrupt, but sometimes it's necessary and in this case you were right.  

We are all still students, when we cease to learn we die.

Blessings,

Rick Riccardi


----------



## The Prof

Greetings Sensei,

FYI, the picture has been removed.  Thanks Again.

Blessings,

Prof


----------



## OC Kid

Along the same lines, I think true Martial Arts is training to survive in any situation. The character development is one part of the training, self confidence, perserverance and other things are just sa important as well. Even though I teach the trad katas amd stances and basics ect I also mix in some Thai style kicks/elbows and boxing combos ect. Now there is some Kick  boxing event coming in a few weeks. One my student wanted to compete in it. told him no. Because He though because he wasnt that good and expressed that to me. I told him no that wasnt it.  I told him I teach him to survive not to get into a ring to beat up someone to see how tough they are or how hard they hit. I told him Im teaching him to defend himself and getting into a ring is not it.


----------



## Autocrat

Okay then... here goes, and no beating up on me for it... (well, not unless I type something real stoopedo!)

Where did the real karate go?

Firstly, which real karate are we refering to?
As I understand it, it was originally a bunch of moves and fighting techniques developed by various people based upon ideas that had migrated from another country.
The real purpose was to enable the practitioner to be able to kick/punch/strike seven shades out of there opponent without being hurt......(this has occured since we used tools and made weapons!)
Alternatively, if you are refering to the more accepted and "romantised" period of honour, integrity and use of force only as a last resort.... I'm not to certain that ever existed, for evey one practitioner of such conduct, there where ten who used such training to enhance their wealth, position and wellbeing by beating up others.


On the other hand.....
If we are talking about traditional karate, (or any other martial art!), compared to todays modernised sporting and showmanship styles and competitions....well, there is no comparison.... you cannot place Motzart next to M+M or madonna and make a fair comparison... the differences are to vast, the aims are non-aligned, and their is little to link the two except external ties.  Those that practe a martial art for the martial side of things should know the difference.

So, IMO, I think that there should be an orgainising of the two arts, the traditional martial arts of the world, and the performance martial arts of the world, and we can compete..... they do their single kata, we do our single kata,(OK, they win for flashy bits!).... they do their syncronised kata, we'll do our syncronised kata (OK, they win again for looking cool and neat!).... then we have the sparring, (we kick their collective butts because of their flashy stuff!).

Though at this point I would like to make it clear that I DO NOT automatically assume that those who practise a traditional, ( or modern) form of martial art designed and taught for self defence to be better at violence than a practioner of a perfomance orientated sport martial art, nor do I believe that a sport martial artist will be better at looking good than a traditional based practitioner!  
It's just from experience, most traditional make better fighters, most sports make better floor mats.

So, I ask, which karate are we refering to... the original "I'm training so I can kick you in", the storified "I'm honourable", or the modern "I'm a poser" ?


----------



## 47MartialMan

Also to mention the weird design patterns, louds clolors, and out lavish uniforms, desined to give extra compensation for points to win.


----------



## Makalakumu

The Prof said:
			
		

> I sure do and still do. Before we had Ace Bandages, we used to use strips of car tire tubes or bicycle tubes. We were kind of crazy in some ways. My first dojo (1962) had no heat in the winter and of course no A/C in the summer. I paid a big rent of $40.00 per month.
> 
> And you sure are right, missing a class was never an option. Many arguments with my wife over the dojo. But the dojo always won out...



Some things change very little in 43 years...

My generation  :asian: to you.


----------



## 47MartialMan

You had bicycle tubes! Darn wish we hadn't used ladies panty hoses


----------



## kishoto

Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate. Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show. These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested. A good instructor will know the diffrents and teach real karate along with the flash. kishoto


----------



## 47MartialMan

kishoto said:
			
		

> Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate. Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show. These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested. A good instructor will know the diffrents and teach real karate along with the flash. kishoto


Nice point, but some instructors do not know what "real" Karate is. Just like some that do not know what "real" Kung Fu is.

And, if one know either, it is less profitable to teach real, verses the "flash" that brings in youth cash.


----------



## RRouuselot

kishoto said:
			
		

> Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate. Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show. These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested. A good instructor will know the diffrents and teach real karate along with the flash. kishoto





			
				kishoto said:
			
		

> Real karate is still out there tournament and demostrations are not real karate.
> 
> 1)*Tournaments are nothing but a high speed game of tag* demostrations are for show form compitition has become nothing but show.
> 
> 2)These have their place in the martial arts they help keep some students interested.


 
 1)Tag? Maybe some are playing tag but my students sure dont play that way. When we spar or do tournaments when someone gets tagged they usually get knocked on their butt with a fair amount of fuzzyness in their head. You can see some photos of it on my website in the bottom row of photos. http://www.geocities.com/ryushikan/tokyodojo.html 

 2)Yes it does keep a certain group of students interested. It also gives them a goal which is not a bad thing. However, training just to win trophies or just to be better than another person should be the goal but a result of quality training.


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Nice point, but some instructors do not know what "real" Karate is. Just like some that do not know what "real" Kung Fu is.
> 
> And, if one know either,_* it is less profitable to teach real, verses the "flash" that brings in youth cash*_.


 That is so true.....


----------



## Sam

The Prof said:
			
		

> I used to go to judge and see old friends. But as time went on I became more disillusioned with what I was seeing. I started to become judgmental and I did not like that, so I just stopped going to tournaments.


 This has become a very common phenomena among us "Old farts" -by that I mean those of us who started training in the early eighties or before that.

 Sometimes I wonder if our old school attitude is part of the problem. Maybe staying away out of disgust IS part of the problem. What would happen if a bunch of us old farts showed up together at a tournament to judge and the majority of the judges in each ring were traditionalists? People do the flashy stuff because it wins. If it didn't win, they'd be doing traditional forms.

 To me open tourneys have always been somewhat of a joke. I went to one a long time ago and was asked to judge the senior black belt competition (4th degree and above). I had just got my shodan

   I told them this and they didn't even bat an eyelash before saying it didn't matter.

 For the heck of it I entered the kata competition. I took fourth and afterwards 3 of the judges walked up and told me it was too bad my form was so short- they would have put me in first if it had been longer cuz I showed more power, focus, and balance thanthe other competitiors. I took that as "we care more about quantity than quality". Only problem is, I would have needed to combine 3 of the traditional Goju forms back to back as one kata to match the average length of the other forms. 

   Never went to another open tourney again.

 And BTW Robert- it used to be that the kind of sparring you do was done with only a mouthpiece, cup, and knuckle pads. Things HAVE changed.


----------



## The Kai

Sam 

I see the haloed green and gold in you avatar-your from the Badger state?

Tournaments are a joke, and frustrating.  We emphasis them for underbelts not for the shodans.
However, you don't change a system from the outside.  Entering one forms competition is hardly a full picture of the competetion.  I think if all the people who say "tournaments suck (Variations therein)"  Would show up we would have a different animal


----------



## Sam

The Kai said:
			
		

> Sam
> 
> I see the haloed green and gold in you avatar-your from the Badger state?


 No, I grew up in Montana and have been a Packers fan since the 60's. I live in Colorado now. Broncos are nice, but they ain't the Green & Gold.



			
				The Kai said:
			
		

> However, you don't change a system from the outside. . . I think if all the people who say "tournaments suck (Variations therein)" Would show up we would have a different animal


  My point exactly. The old catch 22. Are we staying away because they're a joke - or are they a joke because we're staying away?

 Actually, I competed fairly regularly for about 5 years in traditional tournaments, then realized it really wasn't doing anything for my Karate (and yes I was winning so it's not because I was doing poorly).


----------



## RRouuselot

Sam said:
			
		

> 1) My point exactly. The old catch 22. Are we staying away because they're a joke - or are they a joke because we're staying away?
> 
> Actually, I competed fairly regularly for about 5 years in traditional tournaments, then realized it really wasn't doing anything for my Karate (and yes I was winning so it's not because I was doing poorly).


 1) I think they are kind of a joke because they prove/solve nothing other than they prove that one person can play within the rules better than another. For example, I had a friend that I trained with for fun on many occasions. He was really into the traditional point sparring tournaments and was a top rated tournament fighter in Japan at that time. If we followed the tournament rules they use in the JKF/JKA he would win most of the time, but if we did full contact, knock down, submission type sparring with basically no rules (no groin strikes or biting etc) his punches, kicks and other techniques had little effect on me and I never lost. 



   2) I think you made several good points.
 Most people that have been in tournaments realize they dont much for improving real karate.


----------



## kensen83

I am not a solid karate practioner, my style is shaolin kempo karate that has many karate movments and techniques associated with it, however i feel compelled to write on this topic. When i first started many many years ago the tornments were much diffrent then today, the movies and the media have transformed tornuments into an exibition in theatrics, much like the chinese opera, now this is not nesicarly a bad thing, i mean lets face it the kids that do these tornuments are incredibly talented and deserve respect, however without a doubt they are not studying techinques tht will save them in the street. ON the same track however the school that i formaly taught at had normal classes were we focused maininly on traditional aspects and self defence, if people wished to learn the tornment type of things they would join the demo team and have seperate classes in regard to that, in essence we kept it seperate, i myself would instead go to full contact tornments or even mma competitions to test my martail skills, but i do not feel the spirit of the martail arts has left us, if u find a true non mcdogo with a good master you will still learn and live by the spirit of the martail arts.


----------



## BruceCalkins

Real Karate & Kung-Fu has been killed by Attitude. Attitudes like many have on this web site. All "True" respect is gone. True training has been pushed aside for profit. If you make what you have look better more people will pay you more to learn it. Like the XMA. It is all flash and wire work. I looks good but while someone is spinning 30 times in the air to throw 1 kick, they have been hit 5 times. I don't want to say that it has no place. It is great for the Shows, Demos and displays for art and form. (This is a martial ART) But, It has no foundation in real Martial Arts. Mike Chat is a fine artist and will train you both ways.
As for a Comment made earlier about KATA.... Does anyone really remember what Kata was...?
Kata was a Master Instructors way to Show his Art. When a nw student came to train the master could show him his heart through his form. Instructors today have lost that. Instead of designing our Kata to show our system we  steal from other masters and teach theirs. That is lazy. In our system we do use 5 Forms from dofferent systems Like Seisan Kata from Isshin-Ryu and others like Kicking Set from Kenpo Karate Also Taikiyoko Kata and Bassai Dai. These are used to work Basics. Kicking Set for Ballance, Taikiyoko for Stance and Movement, Seisan for Power and Sanchin. But once our students learn these forms we have them build their own Kata.. I want to see, "David Form 1" , "Tina Form 1" and so on. This is there heart and on the day that they open their schools I want them to be able to teach their students not only the style they learned but to show them their heart and what they love about the arts.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Real Karate has been replaced with mock-ups. Lets use the analogy of the Katana. look at all of the afyer-market "blades".

Real Kung Fu is no different. For example, the so-called Kung Fu uniform was not originally design to represent a martial art nor train in.

However, as time/era change, instructors of "real" had many students whom became instructors and/or branched off with their own versions.

So because it is altered, is it still "real"?

As far as tournaments, this is "real", but are we actually talking about "traditional"?

Most martial artists realize that tournaments are not a depiction of actual combat


----------



## RRouuselot

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Real Karate & Kung-Fu has been killed by Attitude. Attitudes like many have on this web site.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]All "True" respect is gone. True training has been pushed aside for profit. If you make what you have look better more people will pay you more to learn it. Like the XMA. It is all flash and wire work. I looks good but while someone is spinning 30 times in the air to throw 1 kick, they have been hit 5 times. I don't want to say that it has no place. It is great for the Shows, Demos and displays for art and form. (This is a martial ART) But, It has no foundation in real Martial Arts. Mike Chat is a fine artist and will train you both ways.
> 
> 3)[font=&quot]      [/font]As for a Comment made earlier about KATA.... Does anyone really remember what Kata was...? Kata was a Master Instructors way to Show his Art. When a new student came to train the master could show him his heart through his form. Instructors today have lost that. *Instead of designing our Kata to show our system we steal from other masters and teach theirs.* *That is lazy*.
> 
> 4)[font=&quot]      [/font]In our system we do use 5 Forms from dofferent systems Like Seisan Kata from Isshin-Ryu and others like Kicking Set from Kenpo Karate Also Taikiyoko Kata and Bassai Dai. *These are used to work Basics. Kicking Set for Ballance, Taikiyoko for Stance and Movement, Seisan for Power and Sanchin.*
> 
> 5)[font=&quot]      [/font]*But once our students learn these forms we have them build their own Kata..* I want to see, "David Form 1" , "Tina Form 1" and so on. This is there heart and on the day that they open their schools I want them to be able to teach their students not only the style they learned but to show them their heart and what they love about the arts.



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]No I think it has been killed by over ranked Soke that cant stick with any one art for a length of time to learn much and then form some martial art claiming it is a better mouse trap.

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]For who? People like wannnbe Soke? 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]By this comment you show your lack of understanding of martial arts.

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font] Again, you show your lack of knowledge by these comments.

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Great.  people with little or know training developing kata & techniques. That is just dumb.


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Real Karate has been replaced with mock-ups.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Lets use the analogy of the Katana. look at all of the afyer-market "blades".
> 
> 3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Real Kung Fu is no different. For example, the so-called Kung Fu uniform was not originally design to represent a martial art nor train in.
> 
> 4)[font=&quot]      [/font]However, as time/era change, instructors of "real" had many students whom became instructors and/or branched off with their own versions.
> 
> 5)[font=&quot]      [/font]Most martial artists realize that tournaments are not a depiction of actual combat



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]I still see real MA all the time. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Thats a poor analogy. again, I see many real katana

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Chinese people usually just train in their regular clothes or traditional clothes.

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Long ago most teachers didnt have that many students.

   5)[font=&quot]      [/font]No Duh..


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)I still see real MA all the time.
> 
> 2)Thats a poor analogy. again, I see many real katana
> 
> 3)Chinese people usually just train in their regular clothes or traditional clothes.
> 
> 4)Long ago most teachers didnt have that many students.
> 
> 5)No Duh..


1.) Real meaning far less in most places.

2.) Much spin-off Katanas...whee you are located is the exception. (Same as karate)

3.) Yes, that was what I was implying.

4.) I didnt mean many like a lot, many as a general amount per the situation.

5.) Chill on the sarcasim


----------



## evenflow1121

I see it as two schools of thoughts that have evolved through prob the last 2 decades or so. One is self defense, and the other is competition. There are schools that focus primarily on competition and not self defense (usually get the flashy flips and musical forms and all that nonesense), and then there are those that focus more on self defense. That is not to say that a school that competes in tourney sparring or forms is not a self defense school, they may be, but there are schools out there that primarily focus on trophy farming, and all they do all year round is prepare for tourneys. When you are in this type of school, well you just have to innovate so its more than likely that you will see the flips and flashes and poor handling of weapons that come with it. You see there is a marketing factor for these kinds of schools, if they can get their students to display those bad boys in their schools, a lot of people will pass by and think you are the king of karate or something and enroll or get their kids to enroll.  There are certainly exceptions to this, not everyone that displays trophies is like this, but I am sure if you've been around MA's for a while you know what I am referring to.  

I know there are still good tournaments out there with real karate, but it all comes back to the consumer, I personally see performance art as worthless and prefer self defense, but I know other people that are just in it to win trophies. Some people love the flash, and love the show, irrespective of them actually knowing how to use a weapon correctly, or whether they can pronounce the actual name of the weapon (ie--if your teacher refers to nunchaku as numchucks, something is wrong). From a personal experience, when I was younger and before I discovered Kenpo, I was in one of these tourney farm schools. Competing in tournaments atleast 7 times a year, and winning 1st place most of the time, however, it did very little for me in the way of self defense, and unfortunately I discovered this the old fashioned way as I entered my first year in middle school many years ago.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Reminds me of a Sonny China movie. i think he had portrayed a Mas charecter. He had entered a tourney a won first place. But he wasnt there for the win. he was there ti see what happened to old verses ctourney. Anyway, another practitoner was there and was impressed. He followed out telling him he forgot his trophy. Chiba asked what the trophy was for. The other guy said it was to show he was the best in Karate. Chiba smashed it on the gruond and said the best at "Karate Dancing". Or something like this. Anyone know the movie?


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Reminds me of a Sonny China movie. i think he had portrayed a Mas charecter. He had entered a tourney a won first place. But he wasnt there for the win. he was there ti see what happened to old verses ctourney. Anyway, another practitoner was there and was impressed. He followed out telling him he forgot his trophy. Chiba asked what the trophy was for. The other guy said it was to show he was the best in Karate. Chiba smashed it on the gruond and said the best at "Karate Dancing". Or something like this. Anyone know the movie?



   It was all part of the Oyama Marketing Machinemost, if not all, of the events in the movie never happened. Sonny Chiba leaves a lot to be desired as a martial artist as well. 

   All in all a pretty silly flick.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Well, I wasnt looking for a review, but the title to the movie and the idea that the charecter did not like tournies.


----------



## evenflow1121

I thought he had a 4th degree black belt in some form of karate.


----------



## BruceCalkins

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)No I think it has been killed by over ranked Soke that cant stick with any one art for a length of time to learn much and then form some martial art claiming it is a better mouse trap.
> 
> 2)For who? People like wannnbe Soke?
> 
> 3)By this comment you show your lack of understanding of martial arts.
> 
> 4) Again, you show your lack of knowledge by these comments.
> 
> 5)Great.  people with little or know training developing kata & techniques. That is just dumb.


If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life. I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.


----------



## 47MartialMan

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life. I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.


How true, as if such a person actually practices "Real Karate"


----------



## clfsean

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the Martial Arts Bushido Code and Ways of Life. I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.


Actually it's more like somebody calling... 

:bs:


----------



## 47MartialMan

clfsean said:
			
		

> Actually it's more like somebody calling...
> 
> :bs:


But, to state someone is BS? Perhaps in their own mind, they have a certain belief or was lead to a certain belief. Is anyone to truely stand judgement on what is BS in accordance to what another believes? Is this forum about providing information as well as opinion? And such opinions have limitations on what is deemed negative or hurtful?

Sticking in relation to the thread, "Real Karate" may be what one is practicing. There are certain "realities" to their art. And can there be "Real Karate" given that it was taken from another source or foundation? Can "Real Karate" actulaly exist because it came from somewhere else and the name was changed?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

There is an old statement: "Opinions are like *******s.  Everyone has one, and they all stink." This often seems true.

Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions.
They can express them, as long as said expression does not violate this sites rules.
They can express them even if they are wrong, or unpopular.

Case in point: "Karate"
"Karate" is both a generic term for all martial arts and a specific art with a destinctive cultural identity. It's meaning changes depending on your opinion, which is based on ones own experience.

My own opinion is that "Karate" is generic, like Xerox and Klenex have become. Other terms and concepts however, aren't generic, but specific. 

"Real" Karate still exists, but it's often not called "Karate" any more...sometimes it's not even Japanese.  Every art/style/school has it's "show off" people (the ones with all the belts, stripes, paper, etc) and it has it's "Serious" players, the ones that train intensely, hard, and full out.  The "Eye Candys" pay the rent, but it's often the "hard core" ones that go on to truely preserve the art.  IMHO.


----------



## RRouuselot

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]If anything statements like these show Great lack of knowledge of the *Martial Arts Bushido Code* and Ways of Life.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]I see that this person has no respect for anyone but himself and little knowledge of history of the arts except in his opinion. If it is not the way he likes it everyone else is wrong or lacks knowledge. I think he is the one who needs to study more and learn the true meaning of the ART.



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Bushido Code?? Are you talking about the book written by Nitobe?

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Ahhhh and here it is at last..cant defend your opinion so whine about character.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> 1.)There is an old statement: "Opinions are like *******s. Everyone has one, and they all stink." This often seems true.
> 
> Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions.
> They can express them, as long as said expression does not violate this sites rules.
> They can express them even if they are wrong, or unpopular.
> 
> 2.) Case in point: "Karate"
> "Karate" is both a generic term for all martial arts and a specific art with a destinctive cultural identity. It's meaning changes depending on your opinion, which is based on ones own experience.
> 
> 3.)My own opinion is that "Karate" is generic, like Xerox and Klenex have become. Other terms and concepts however, aren't generic, but specific.
> 
> 4.)"Real" Karate still exists, but it's often not called "Karate" any more...sometimes it's not even Japanese. Every art/style/school has it's "show off" people (the ones with all the belts, stripes, paper, etc) and it has it's "Serious" players, the ones that train intensely, hard, and full out. The "Eye Candys" pay the rent, but it's often the "hard core" ones that go on to truely preserve the art. IMHO.


1.) How true. But a opinion, by some definitions, pending reference, is a belief or conclusion held in confidence, but not substantiated by positive knowledge or proof. (So is this to state that none are turely correct or wrong?)

Opinions that are expressed un-popular, have a tendancy to create controversy, which such at times, have the thread go off topic.

2.) Given that it changes per opinion, then in one's opinion, it could be any empty hand art with similiar tactics. Per if it is to be of a specific origin, then it actual foundations could have been from another. Also, given the very name, which was changed from another art/origin, then how can it stilll be real. Is "real" to also be considered as authentic?

3.) Specific vs generics. That is interesting. In what terms are "specific" for example(s)?

4.) So true about hard core people. But can such person, whom believes that their art is Karate, truely be practicing within their own realism? in other words, because they are not or maintain, in the origin, lineage, rank, or etc., is what they do less than "real"?


----------



## clfsean

Here go the circlular questions... again... 

  :disgust: :feedtroll


----------



## arnisador

Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.


----------



## 47MartialMan

arnisador said:
			
		

> Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.


Hmmn, perhaps through media sources?


----------



## RRouuselot

arnisador said:
			
		

> Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.


 

 Maybe its because some dim-witted people think all punching and kicking arts are the same and its easy to bounce from one to another


----------



## 47MartialMan

Pending on one's view, or what one has come to believe, makes them so?

Some may never be as educated or shown other views.

A lot of inconsistancies develop and before the "almighty internet", it was hard to over-turn or filter such.

According to the thread, is "real" synonymous with "authentic"?


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> How true, as if such a person actually practices "Real Karate"


 
   Interesting comment coming from a guy who studied from a teacher that uses a fake Japanese name not only for himself but a fake name for his art as well.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Quotes from various people posting  and my thoughts on the posts.




> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.


I can agree with this to a point.   Egos and bad sportsmanship have alway been in the tournament circut in the USA.  Arrogant instructors where always around also . the difference is they used to be able to back up their arrogence with knowledge and ability.  



> The "real deal" is still kicking around, believe me. You just have to go to the right tournaments I think.


This I totaly agree with.  But even in these tournaments you will find the acrobatics and load Screaming . The diffence is they do'nt win.



> Kata competition is a beautiful thing to watch when its done seriously. I have no idea how it could've become so warped like you described.


Again ego and the " if its a triple back flip  and a twirling whatever it must be more effective than a good solid stance and a reverse punch" attitude by those that succumb to audience pressure.




> Originally kata performance was meant as a way to demonstrate ones knowledge/understanding of the kata as well as kime = focus, power, speed, and spirit


 
This make sence when you think of what the katas where ment to show




> If it is a performance art as you say, then it should not be called a martial art.


 
Thats what I belive also.  By that I mean all the flips and screaming and BS done today to impress




> We were kind of crazy in some ways. My first dojo (1962) had no heat in the winter and of course no A/C in the summer.


 
Sounds about right for many of the old school back in those days. No mats. mirrors, floors that where sometimes warped, work outs in the parking lots, etc.




> I used to go to judge and see old friends. But as time went on I became more disillusioned with what I was seeing.


 
This may be a verry common feeling among those from the old days.  However going back into the tournament circut and showing what it is/was all about can also help to correct the problem sometimes because there just might be someone else in the stands that remembers and they may decide to come back to help put reality back into tournaments.

Real Karate may only be in the mind of the beholder but some of the old timers remember when tournaments left no doubt who won (trophy or not) and karta was done with a persons hart as well as their body and mind.  Training was more inportant than any tournament. dedication to your instructor was upmost and you didn't go changeing styles, instructors, and organisations for rank.
Knowledge was given, in time, to those that deserved it, not to any fool that walked in the door and demanded it.  Sadly htese traits are not as common as they once where.  IMHO
Sheldon


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Interesting comment coming from a guy who studied from a teacher that uses a fake Japanese name not only for himself but a fake name for his art as well.


Live and learn....


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Live and learn....


   Your profile says freelance which is not very helpful

   So what art do you actually train in now?

   You have also mentioned your students..what art do you teach?


----------



## 47MartialMan

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> 1.) Sounds about right for many of the old school back in those days. No mats. mirrors, floors that where sometimes warped, work outs in the parking lots, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 2.)This may be a verry common feeling among those from the old days. However going back into the tournament circut and showing what it is/was all about can also help to correct the problem sometimes because there just might be someone else in the stands that remembers and they may decide to come back to help put reality back into tournaments.
> 
> 
> 3.) Real Karate may only be in the mind of the beholder but some of the old timers remember when tournaments left no doubt who won (trophy or not) and karta was done with a persons hart as well as their body and mind. Training was more inportant than any tournament. dedication to your instructor was upmost and you didn't go changeing styles, instructors, and organisations for rank.
> 
> 4.) Knowledge was given, in time, to those that deserved it, not to any fool that walked in the door and demanded it. Sadly htese traits are not as common as they once where. IMHO
> Sheldon


1.) You forgot workouts in parks and playgrounds 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




2.) They can't cause it won't "sell":shrug:

3.) Yes, the good old days.....but there were some cons to those days.

4.) Yes demand it from flashing the "green backs"


----------



## BruceCalkins

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.) You forgot workouts in parks and playgrounds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Bruce Lee Worked in the Park and trained outside with no mats or Equpment. Does that make him a Fake"
> 
> 2.) They can't cause it won't "sell":shrug:
> Due to the High cost of insurance Full contact tournaments are a thing of the past. Besides in point fighting you don't have to kill your partner to win. Even socalled Full Contact fights like the UFC, have rules to make it winable by mostly Jui Jitsu Fighters. They don't allow Biteing or Eye Gouges or Groin Kicks to get out of the arm bar. Those are against the rules."
> 
> 3.) Yes, the good old days.....but there were some cons to those days.
> "In the Good old days Martial Arts were Brothers. No mater what their style and many worked together. I have been in the arts from 1968 to date and Cross training and Martial Brotherhood is still all good."
> 
> We need to just open our minds and hearts to new ways of thought and build the Martial Arts world


----------



## RRouuselot

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> 47MartialMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) "Bruce Lee Worked in the Park and trained outside with no mats or Equpment. Does that make him a Fake"
> 
> 2.) Due to the High cost of insurance Full contact tournaments are a thing of the past. Besides in point fighting you don't have to kill your partner to win. Even socalled Full Contact fights like the UFC, have rules to make it winable by mostly Jui Jitsu Fighters. They don't allow Biteing or Eye Gouges or Groin Kicks to get out of the arm bar. Those are against the rules."
> 
> 3.) "In the Good old days Martial Arts were Brothers. No mater what their style and many worked together. I have been in the arts from 1968 to date and Cross training and Martial Brotherhood is still all good."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You still here? You claimed you were leaving
> 
> 1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Lee also opened a dojo and charged an unbelievable amount of money to train with him.
> 
> 2)[font=&quot]      [/font]They are still around.
> 
> 3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Really? According to who? You? I seem to remember an incident back in the 60s/70s with Count Dante where several members of a dojo were killed. I also remember something called dojo yaburi..know what that is? Its certainly not new.
Click to expand...


----------



## 47MartialMan

SokeCalkins said:
			
		

> 47MartialMan said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) You forgot workouts in parks and playgrounds
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Bruce Lee Worked in the Park and trained outside with no mats or Equpment. Does that make him a Fake"
> 
> 2.) They can't cause it won't "sell":shrug:
> Due to the High cost of insurance Full contact tournaments are a thing of the past. Besides in point fighting you don't have to kill your partner to win. Even socalled Full Contact fights like the UFC, have rules to make it winable by mostly Jui Jitsu Fighters. They don't allow Biteing or Eye Gouges or Groin Kicks to get out of the arm bar. Those are against the rules."
> 
> 3.) Yes, the good old days.....but there were some cons to those days.
> "In the Good old days Martial Arts were Brothers. No mater what their style and many worked together. I have been in the arts from 1968 to date and Cross training and Martial Brotherhood is still all good."
> 
> We need to just open our minds and hearts to new ways of thought and build the Martial Arts world
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) Yes, I just thought to add parks and playgrounds.
> 
> 2.) Yes, I always ponered why something would be called "Ultimate" with rules involved.
> 
> 3.) Brotherhood in the past was not always apparent. There were rival schools with challengers droping in.
> 
> Back to topic: Is the term "real" to mean "authentic"?
Click to expand...


----------



## mj-hi-yah

*Mod Note.*

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful. 

- MJ
- MT Moderator


----------



## Rich Parsons

arnisador said:
			
		

> Karate has, sadly, become a fairly generic term in the US. I don't know why it happened to Karate but not to Kung Fu, which still implies a Chinese (descended) system.




Well I think the Chinese systems remained a little more closed, then the Japanese systems. If you look at South East Michigan you can find the Japanese arts here first, and then some of the Korean arts. And as mentioned that the ignorance of the average person, that sees a punch and or kick and does not know the difference of technique or style, and seed them all as the same. I know people that call Pepsi by the name Coke. Why becuase they new Coke first, so this is their frame of reference. 

Just what I see, from my little cornder of the world.


----------



## RRouuselot

47martialman, 

 Maybe you didn't see this question for you.....here it is again..


    So what art do you actually train in now?

    You have also mentioned your students..what art do you teach?


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 47martialman,
> 
> Maybe you didn't see this question for you.....here it is again..
> 
> 
> So what art do you actually train in now?
> 
> You have also mentioned your students..what art do you teach?


From the terms and requirements of this forum, I shall not answer you....of all people.

And I do not find any relation to this answer in correspondence to this thread.


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> From the terms and requirements of this forum, I shall not answer you....of all people.
> 
> And I do not find any relation to this answer in correspondence to this thread.


   I just thought you might grace us with an answer since you try to speak with an authoritative voice on the subject of Karate and where did it gobut hey, if you have a problem with posting an answer to a simple question that may shed some light on to where you base you opinions that you post on this thread no problem.


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I just thought you might grace us with an answer since you try to speak with an authoritative voice on the subject of Karate and where did it gobut hey, if you have a problem with posting an answer to a simple question that may shed some light on to where you base you opinions that you post on this thread no problem.


I am not here to grace you with such an answer

And, I did not claim to be a "authoritative voice on the subject of Karate".

And, I did know that shedding some light on the basis of opnions is a criteria on this forum. Nor was the idea of bashing and debunking.

And, I have no problem with posting a answer to anyone..but you.

And, you really should stick to the topic of threads.


----------



## arnisador

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well I think the Chinese systems remained a little more closed, then the Japanese systems. If you look at South East Michigan you can find the Japanese arts here first, and then some of the Korean arts. And as mentioned that the ignorance of the average person, that sees a punch and or kick and does not know the difference of technique or style, and seed them all as the same. I know people that call Pepsi by the name Coke. Why becuase they new Coke first, so this is their frame of reference.


 Hmmm, seems plausible...I think "Korean Karate" was the start of it, to my mind.


----------



## 47MartialMan

arnisador said:
			
		

> Hmmm, seems plausible...I think "Korean Karate" was the start of it, to my mind.


How true. I have even seen yellow page ads that stated this to give the common wealth a idea or concept.

But how "real" is "real" or "authentic" as "authentic"?


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> I am not here to grace you with such an answer
> 
> 1) And, I did not claim to be a "authoritative voice on the subject of Karate".
> 
> And, I did know that shedding some light on the basis of opnions is a criteria on this forum. Nor was the idea of bashing and debunking.
> 
> 2) And, I have no problem with posting a answer to anyone..but you.
> 
> 3) And, you really should stick to the topic of threads.


 1) What are you basing your opinions on? I mean if someone who has only trained in Arnis gives their opinion about what karate is I would wonder what they base that opinion. 

    2) .

 3) Actually it is on topic. I base my opinion on the topic of this thread from over 25 years in Karate training, which I think gives me a little bit of knowledge about the art and a base for an opinion.


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But how "real" is "real" or "authentic" as "authentic"?


   You just love to play semantics dont you?

  Therefore I'll ask you..........how fake is fake?


----------



## searcher

RRouselot  I have a question for you.   What is your background in karate?  I have seen some make mention that you are a student of Oyata, is this Taika Oyata from Independance, Missouri?   Just something I have been wondering.

Now on topic,  I think Rich Parsons has hit it on the head with the use of "karate" as a general term for most martial arts and the use of "kung fu" is the same way.   I feel the degradation of karate came with it being broke up into systems.   This made for many creating their own styles and not continuing their education by cross-training with other instructors.   It use to be that an instructor taught 1 or 2 kata and they had some "special" techniques that they felt were the techniques that made them different.   We have truly lost that intermixing with the formation of styles that are very rigid in nature, by not allowing for the expansion of the techniques and the increasing of the knowledge base.   WE are the one responsible for creating this mess and it is up to us to fix it.   We all need to put styles aside and start getting back to the way karate was taught prior to 1900.   Just my $0.02 worth.


----------



## The Kai

Actually, styles starting devolping almosr as soon as the art wwas brought to Okinwa.  See Shuri-Te, naha-te, and Shorie Te.  Then came shotokan, goju, wado ryu, chito ryu, kyokushin kai etc..

Also there is not a ton of evidence as to a pre 1900 karate


----------



## searcher

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually, styles starting devolping almosr as soon as the art wwas brought to Okinwa. See Shuri-Te, naha-te, and Shorie Te. Then came shotokan, goju, wado ryu, chito ryu, kyokushin kai etc..
> 
> Also there is not a ton of evidence as to a pre 1900 karate


I do undestand that there were different groupings of kata for the areas in which they developed.  But the masters of the day did travel and learn from masters indifferent areas.   My point was in referance to what Miyagi was asked upon his return to Okinawa from I believe South America.   He was asked what style he taught and he replied, "Karate" and was again asked what style he taught.   That is when he is supposed to have started using Goju-ryu.   The different towns of Shuri, Tomari, and Naha are not that far apart and this alowed for "overlap" of principals and techniques.   I guess I should have stated that "real" karate started to fade when it was introduced into Primary school physical education by Itosu, Funakoshi, etc.   Again, just my $0.02 worth.


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Actually it is on topic. I base my opinion on the topic of this thread from over 25 years in Karate training, which I think gives me a little bit of knowledge about the art and a base for an opinion.


No, you are trolling to debunk or start controversy or aggitation.


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You just love to play semantics dont you?
> 
> Therefore I'll ask you..........how fake is fake?


Fake being not "real" or not "authentic"?

Given that Karate, like many arts, are shrouded by some inconsistancies, how, even as it is passed from generation to generation, maintain the course of true "realism". Or is "real" per the actual sight and touch? Is authentic per the actual way it was done upon its creation?

Given the sword analogy, say there is a early (centuries) Katana sword made. Experts will state that it is authentic verses the manufactured ones using stainless steel, or other modern metals. (Though these are "real" and can be better.)

However, given that there is a swordsmith that still produces a sword the same way it has been done (and can't be really sure) from generation to genration. It is "real" to sight and touch, but is it "authentic" in comparison to the centuries old one?

If someone should branch off and start their own Karate system, is it "real" that it doesn't have "blessed" lineage or actual origin from Okinawa?


----------



## clfsean

No... actually he's trying to find out exactly where you base your opinions from. What qualifications do you have to make any of the statements or assumptions posted by you in the thread? 

That's what he's asking... if it gets inflammatory is dependant on your answer & verifiable background.


----------



## 47MartialMan

searcher said:
			
		

> 1.) RRouselot I have a question for you. What is your background in karate? I have seen some make mention that you are a student of Oyata, is this Taika Oyata from Independance, Missouri? Just something I have been wondering.
> 
> 2.) Now on topic, I think Rich Parsons has hit it on the head with the use of "karate" as a general term for most martial arts and the use of "kung fu" is the same way. I feel the degradation of karate came with it being broke up into systems. This made for many creating their own styles and not continuing their education by cross-training with other instructors. It use to be that an instructor taught 1 or 2 kata and they had some "special" techniques that they felt were the techniques that made them different. We have truly lost that intermixing with the formation of styles that are very rigid in nature, by not allowing for the expansion of the techniques and the increasing of the knowledge base. WE are the one responsible for creating this mess and it is up to us to fix it. We all need to put styles aside and start getting back to the way karate was taught prior to 1900. Just my $0.02 worth.


1.) Nice question, but I do not see where this needing to know someone's practice in relation to this thread. For everyone has their own opinion of this thread without such. Surely, if anyone practiced Karate, any form, and did research on the subject, could post a opinion of it. But then again, if someone didn't practice Karate, how can they determine what is actually "real"? From their own mind, they can label any art thus. Or if someone is told they are studying Karate, then in their mind, also, would believe what they do is "real".

2.) We can't fix something so controversial with inconsistancies. And let's not forget the politics involved or may surface. And how can anyone teach/practice the way Karate was taught long ago? How can anyone actually say that theirs is THE way it WAS done so long ago? Transmissions get lost, forgotten, or altered. Not to mention, many instructors of their passing, took information when they deceased.


----------



## 47MartialMan

clfsean said:
			
		

> No... actually he's trying to find out exactly where you base your opinions from. What qualifications do you have to make any of the statements or assumptions posted by you in the thread?
> 
> That's what he's asking... if it gets inflammatory is dependant on your answer & verifiable background.


Well, first, I don't believe that this is his entire intention. And, I didn't know there was such a level of qualification to post. I am making posts in relation to how one may determine what is real, or is real meaning authentic?

And, such that anyone whom had studied and researched such subject, no matter what course, can still post their opinion.

Does one have to have a "verifiable" background? Again, why is there a need to ask for a level of qualification to post?

The subject of "real" can be examined by many ways other than seeking such "verifiable" background.

Lets say someone has a background, but someomne else disagrees with this background? Let's say that one has a biased or mind-set outlook, whereas someone else has one different? Only one can post their opnion?

Lets look at someone whom had trained in Arnis, can he not post a opinion on the subject of "real" or "authentic". Knowing that nothing withstands time without alterations? Let's say the Arnis practitioner, as a "open" martial artist, does extensive research on Karate, would he have less knowledge of it than someone practicing a "Karate Lineage art". Let's say, that the arnis practitioner cross trains and learn Karate. If tactics are such that leads him to believe that he practices "Karate", then it is "real" to him. What criteria is there to state that some does or doesn't practice "Karate". Much alone affix the word "real" to it. Given that Karate was formulated from Okinawan martial art, which in turn was formulated from Chinese studies. Formulated meaning that there are changes or alterations and perhaps not wholeheartenly.

Semantics, yes, but given the many consistancies, controversies, and politics of the subject, "real" is the opinion of the individual.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Just adding another 2 cents to my earlier 2.  (Thats what, 5 cents?) 

I'm an Arnis practitioner.  The founder of my art, Remy Presas had a background in Karate, Shotokan I believe.  The forms we do in my system are modified Shotokan forms. At one point in time, the art was described as "Filipino Karate".  So, am I doing Karate?

In my opinion, no. I'm doing Modern Arnis, which has some similarities and influences that are Karate, but it isn't Karate.  I see Karate as a Japanese art.  My opinions have been effected by the information I've read here and elsewhere. I wouldn't pick up an English broadsword and think I'm doing Kendo and more than I would pick up a Katana and think I was fencing. To me, specific terms apply to specific things...with a few exceptions. 

I believe one can train with intensity, honesty and 'fire', but that is more dependant on the practitioner, than the art, IMO.

To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi".  It's just not "right".


----------



## 47MartialMan

searcher said:
			
		

> I do undestand that there were different groupings of kata for the areas in which they developed. But the masters of the day did travel and learn from masters indifferent areas. My point was in referance to what Miyagi was asked upon his return to Okinawa from I believe South America. He was asked what style he taught and he replied, "Karate" and was again asked what style he taught. That is when he is supposed to have started using Goju-ryu. The different towns of Shuri, Tomari, and Naha are not that far apart and this alowed for "overlap" of principals and techniques. I guess I should have stated that "real" karate started to fade when it was introduced into Primary school physical education by Itosu, Funakoshi, etc. Again, just my $0.02 worth.


But how can "Real Karate" fade when it was created out of such other foundations? How, without being present so long ago, can anyone determine what is "real"? Sure there are documents and historians of the subject. But can such actually state that such, is absolutely "real"? Again, what is "real"? What is the criteria for "Real Karate"?


----------



## 47MartialMan

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> 1.) Just adding another 2 cents to my earlier 2. (Thats what, 5 cents?)
> 
> 2.) I'm an Arnis practitioner. The founder of my art, Remy Presas had a background in Karate, Shotokan I believe. The forms we do in my system are modified Shotokan forms. At one point in time, the art was described as "Filipino Karate". So, am I doing Karate?
> 
> 3.)In my opinion, no. I'm doing Modern Arnis, which has some similarities and influences that are Karate, but it isn't Karate. I see Karate as a Japanese art. My opinions have been effected by the information I've read here and elsewhere. I wouldn't pick up an English broadsword and think I'm doing Kendo and more than I would pick up a Katana and think I was fencing. To me, specific terms apply to specific things...with a few exceptions.
> 
> I believe one can train with intensity, honesty and 'fire', but that is more dependant on the practitioner, than the art, IMO.
> 
> 4.) To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".


1.) I believe that is 4 cents, unless you picked up another penny for a tip
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





2.) If it has certain/specific things, in a way, yes. But perhaps not completely.

3.) But given its history/lineage, is Karate a exclusive "Japanese" art? Nice analogy of the broadsword, Kendo, and fencing. However, given the specifics and criteria of each, there is distinction. However, given the relation of the specifics of the many different styles/branches of Karate, how can one be truely stated as "real" as to one not within the same specifics?

4.) I see given the term, Karate, being Japanese, although it was Okinawan influenced, and via Chinese, the Japanese have the "rights" on "real" Karate? Wasn't it the Japanese whom changed the charecters to make it their own? To mask its identity/origins? And such, can they lay total claim to it? So one can't say "Okinawan Karate"?


----------



## clfsean

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Well, first, I don't believe that this is his entire intention. And, I didn't know there was such a level of qualification to post. I am making posts in relation to how one may determine what is real, or is real meaning authentic?


So in other words, you're not going to tell who you studied with, for how long & where? Why might that be? That tends to lead people to think you have something to hide or maybe aren't as up front as you should be when trying to talk as an authority on a topic.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And, such that anyone whom had studied and researched such subject, no matter what course, can still post their opinion.


Right... but he's asking about your studies... to again qualify the veracity of what you write.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Does one have to have a "verifiable" background? Again, why is there a need to ask for a level of qualification to post?


Of course not, but if you're going to speak with an air of authority on a topic (which you have tried to), then you need to be able to provide proof of such a level of authority & expertise.



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The subject of "real" can be examined by many ways other than seeking such "verifiable" background.


Of course it can! However with today's modern & litigation based society, I always advise against such _'proof is in the pudding'_ contests, but there's always one.... 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Lets say someone has a background, but someomne else disagrees with this background? Let's say that one has a biased or mind-set outlook, whereas someone else has one different? Only one can post their opnion?


Sure post away but be prepared to defend your background in the meantime. If your background (training, teacher, lineage) is on the up & up, you've got nothing to worry about & people will know you by know the reputation of the school that accepted you & that you represent in public. If not, well...



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Lets look at someone whom had trained in Arnis, can he not post a opinion on the subject of "real" or "authentic". Knowing that nothing withstands time without alterations? Let's say the Arnis practitioner, as a "open" martial artist, does extensive research on Karate, would he have less knowledge of it than someone practicing a "Karate Lineage art". Let's say, that the arnis practitioner cross trains and learn Karate. If tactics are such that leads him to believe that he practices "Karate", then it is "real" to him. What criteria is there to state that some does or doesn't practice "Karate". Much alone affix the word "real" to it. Given that Karate was formulated from Okinawan martial art, which in turn was formulated from Chinese studies. Formulated meaning that there are changes or alterations and perhaps not wholeheartenly.


Karate == Japanese word, thought, methods
Arnis == Filipino word, thought, methods

Arnis <> Karate just as Filipino <> Japanese. You can blend them, but you can't call one the other based on how a practitioner looks at it because they are specific in nature. 

The Okinawan origins of Karate were based on their indigenous arts/techniques/theories & blending of Southern Chinese gung fu. However, the Okinawans didn't call it Gung Fu. They called it something different because it was something different than what was brought back from China by the time the public was exposed to it. Origins, yes... same thing, not even close. 



			
				47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Semantics, yes, but given the many consistancies, controversies, and politics of the subject, "real" is the opinion of the individual.


Circular logic again... at its finest...


----------



## 47MartialMan

clfsean said:
			
		

> 1.) So in other words, you're not going to tell who you studied with, for how long & where? Why might that be? That tends to lead people to think you have something to hide or maybe aren't as up front as you should be when trying to talk as an authority on a topic.
> 
> 2.) Right... but he's asking about your studies... to again qualify the veracity of what you write.
> 
> 3.) Of course not, but if you're going to speak with an air of authority on a topic (which you have tried to), then you need to be able to provide proof of such a level of authority & expertise.
> 
> 4.) Of course it can! However with today's modern & litigation based society, I always advise against such _'proof is in the pudding'_ contests, but there's always one....
> 
> 5.) Sure post away but be prepared to defend your background in the meantime. If your background (training, teacher, lineage) is on the up & up, you've got nothing to worry about & people will know you by know the reputation of the school that accepted you & that you represent in public. If not, well...
> 
> 6.) Arnis <> Karate just as Filipino <> Japanese. You can blend them, but you can't call one the other based on how a practitioner looks at it because they are specific in nature.
> 
> 7.) The Okinawan origins of Karate were based on their indigenous arts/techniques/theories & blending of Southern Chinese gung fu. However, the Okinawans didn't call it Gung Fu. They called it something different because it was something different than what was brought back from China by the time the public was exposed to it. Origins, yes... same thing, not even close.


1.) Something to hide-no. Something that is not necessary-yes. Claiming to be a authority on it-no. Posting what I am thinking, or come to believe in my opinion-yes.

2.) Hmmn, so what I have written, trying to understand and seek other opinions on the term "Real Karate", has no veracity?

3.) I dont speak with the air authority, just seeking opinions of term. For instance, Kaith Rustaz had stated his IMHO, about what his opinion of what Karate should be. He gave good analogy and response. This could actually be used or read from someone whom has no idea one art from another. He did not post out of authority but out of opinion.

4.) So, does one have to study a Karate, per a direct lineage, to have a authority on it? There couldn't be any other means?

5.) I didn't know one to post on this forum needed to "defend" their background. I didn't know one had to have a certain criteria such as a reputation, to post. Do I have to be in Japan to study, or be the author of a book?

6.) If one blended them, he could use Karate in the newly-developed art? And such that he or his students practice, cannot be "real"?

7.) So, Okinawa did not have "Real Karate"?


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> No, you are trolling to debunk or start controversy or aggitation.


  Nope, I'm asking a simple question that merely requires a simple answer.
  Not a problem for most people. But if you refuse to answer that's fine. 
 I was asking the question for the reseaon I stated previously. Just as Rich Parson's background is in S.E. Asain arts he posts a lot there but he has also trained in karate, if I am not mistaken. You hang around the karate threads and post there a lot so I am wondering what your background is.


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Fake being not "real" or not "authentic"?
> 
> Given that Karate, like many arts, are shrouded by some inconsistancies, how, even as it is passed from generation to generation, maintain the course of true "realism". Or is "real" per the actual sight and touch? Is authentic per the actual way it was done upon its creation?
> 
> Given the sword analogy, say there is a early (centuries) Katana sword made. Experts will state that it is authentic verses the manufactured ones using stainless steel, or other modern metals. (Though these are "real" and can be better.)
> 
> However, given that there is a swordsmith that still produces a sword the same way it has been done (and can't be really sure) from generation to genration. It is "real" to sight and touch, but is it "authentic" in comparison to the centuries old one?
> 
> If someone should branch off and start their own Karate system, is it "real" that it doesn't have "blessed" lineage or actual origin from Okinawa?


 
 Interesting you should mention the katana since many believe it to have originated in Korea............


----------



## RRouuselot

searcher said:
			
		

> RRouselot .........I have seen some make mention that you are a student of Oyata, is this Taika Oyata from Independance, Missouri?


  Yes, I am his student.
 He is from Okinawa and lives in Independance, Missouri. 
 His first dojo in the US was about just down the road from my house about 20 minutes away.


----------



## Shorin-ryu Sensei

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.)
> 
> . . .
> 
> 4.) I see given the term, Karate, being Japanese, although it was Okinawan influenced, and via Chinese, the Japanese have the "rights" on "real" Karate? Wasn't it the Japanese whom changed the charecters to make it their own? To mask its identity/origins? And such, can they lay total claim to it? So one can't say "Okinawan Karate"?



Getting back to the original point of this thread:  

Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.

The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort. 

No matter how good you are with the weapon it&#8217;s the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win. 
My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?

-----

The only thing I have to say about "modern" karate, a la "American Karate" and any other tournament/sport version ....... if I want to see a theatrical performance, I'll go to the theatre or watch a movie .... 

Rant Over ......


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Well, first, I don't believe that this is his entire intention. And, I didn't know there was such a level of qualification to post.


 
   No need to get paranoid. I was just curious.


----------



## RRouuselot

Shorin-ryu Sensei said:
			
		

> Getting back to the original point of this thread:
> 
> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.
> 
> The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.
> 
> No matter how good you are with the weapon its the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
> My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?
> 
> -----
> 
> The only thing I have to say about "modern" karate, a la "American Karate" and any other tournament/sport version ....... if I want to see a theatrical performance, I'll go to the theatre or watch a movie ....
> 
> Rant Over ......


 I think what you have described is unique in American Karate. In Japan they havent gone that way.yet. Here they just dance kata for looks, keeping some what to the original form but use the new JKA/JKF versions, and are pretty clueless as to the defensive applications. Actually most Japanese Karateka I have met dont care about kata application. Kumite is done with little or no contact..the so called tippy-tap tournaments. 

    Okinawa still puts great emphasis on the katas defensive applications and most tournaments do kumite full contact.


----------



## Rich Parsons

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Nope, I'm asking a simple question that merely requires a simple answer.
> Not a problem for most people. But if you refuse to answer that's fine.
> I was asking the question for the reseaon I stated previously. Just as Rich Parson's background is in S.E. Asain arts he posts a lot there but he has also trained in karate, if I am not mistaken. You hang around the karate threads and post there a lot so I am wondering what your background is.




Actually my offical training is only in FMA's. I have trained with people who train in TKD/Karate/Kenpo. In the Karate area it was students of Oshima Sensei. I do not know more than that, but I was never a student of his.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Ok, getting back to issue of "real". So, someone whom had studied in Japan, came to America, teaches most of what they had learned, but call it, for example, American Karate-whatever, is this no longer "real" Karate? And what if they want their background/identity masked, for whatever reason, being a illegal immigrant, legal problems, or other servere, etc., do they teach or practice something less than "real"?

And, given the opinion, that "Karate" is Japanese origin, then there can be no such thing as "Okinawan Karate", given they had a different name for their arts.

Given this subject (of "real") had come up with Chinese whom have shaved their heads, have interesting moves, and wear robes, are they "Real Shaolin Monks"?

Not to mention another subject-is Ki/Chi "real"?

Now, it is not my intention to go off topic of "Real Karate", but the term can be misleading to those whom may be want to examine what is real.

So, what is the criteria, specifics, or guidelines, for "Real Karate"?


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Interesting you should mention the katana since many believe it to have originated in Korea............


There you go, going off topic again......

This can be another thread.....care to start one on this subject?


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> No need to get paranoid. I was just curious.


No, I am not paranoid. Cautious on how you will take my wording out of context to use it for your own crusade.

Again, as usual, you led me off topic.


----------



## RRouuselot

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Actually my offical training is only in FMA's. I have trained with people who train in TKD/Karate/Kenpo. In the Karate area it was students of Oshima Sensei. I do not know more than that, but I was never a student of his.


 
 Sorry to use you as an example. I remembered you had mentioned some training in karate before. 
 Thanks for the update.


----------



## arnisador

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Interesting you should mention the katana since many believe it to have originated in Korea............


 I don't think I've heard that before!


----------



## arnisador

The Kai said:
			
		

> Actually, styles starting devolping almosr as soon as the art wwas brought to Okinwa. See Shuri-Te, naha-te, and Shorie Te. Then came shotokan, goju, wado ryu, chito ryu, kyokushin kai etc..


 But even the first few you mentioned are well past the 36 families' appearance in Ryukyu, no?



> Also there is not a ton of evidence as to a pre 1900 karate


 It's clear something was happening, but I doubt there's much that's of use to an historian.


----------



## 47MartialMan

arnisador said:
			
		

> But even the first few you mentioned are well past the 36 families' appearance in Ryukyu, no?
> It's clear something was happening, but I doubt there's much that's of use to an historian.


But given this, if any is to be taken as inconsistancies, can there be any "real" Karate?


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> But given this, if any is to be taken as inconsistancies, can there be any "real" Karate?


 Your war cry can there be any "real" Karate? is getting old. 
   Maybe instead of make such troll like comments you could supply that there ISN'T any real Karate left. 




     Fact: Chinese Chuan fa was taught on Okinawa

     Fact: Okinawa had an unarmed form of fighting called te

     Fact: The two arts were combined over the years to form karate

     Fact: The kata that exist in Okinawa in most styles do NOT exist in China, not counting Goju and Uechi kata of course.



     If you compare the above to science:

     2 parts hydrogen and one part water when combined make water.

      Chuan fa was combined with Okinawa Te and made karate.
   2 separate entities combined to make one new entity.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Given this description of real, and using Kaith Rustaz description per; To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right". Then, what is to be said of Brazilian Ju Jitsu? Is it less real with such a prefix? And given it is not practiced in Japan? (No controversy intended for Kaith Rustaz, he was stating his opinion.)



And what of a school, who has lineage, but the instructor decides to teach flash, because it is what the general youth public is looking for. And given this, has to be done to bring in recognition and membership. Thus, this instructor may teach real methods after a certain level. Is he less of a Real Karate instructor by changing the structure a little to accommodate?

Can I dare say there isn't any "Real Karate" left? Would anyone?


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Given this description of real, and using Kaith Rustaz description per; To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right". Then, what is to be said of Brazilian Ju Jitsu? Is it less real with such a prefix?
> *And given it is not practiced in **Japan? *(No controversy intended for Kaith Rustaz, he was stating his opinion.)


 You need to get your facts straight.....
  It is taught in Japan and very popular to boot.


----------



## evenflow1121

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> And what of a school, who has lineage, but the instructor decides to teach flash, because it is what the general youth public is looking for. And given this, has to be done to bring in recognition and membership. Thus, this instructor may teach real methods after a certain level. *Is he less of a Real Karate instructor by changing the structure a little to accommodate*?
> 
> I guess it depends on how far he is willing to go, how much he alters the system. You know there is quite a market for the flashy styles out there, but the ultimate issue really depends on the customer. Personally, I think 'flashy' is worthless, but there are people out there that find it valuable, they love tournaments, and trophies and what not, to each his own. I do however believe, that the style does becomes less authentic, thus less realistic, once you begin to deviate from it and start to add all these flips and music and crap you see added in today for tournament's sake of competition.


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You need to get your facts straight.....
> It is taught in Japan and very popular to boot.


No no no, I am saying that "Brazilian Ju Jitsu" is not taught in Japan. Does this make it less "real"


----------



## 47MartialMan

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> I guess it depends on how far he is willing to go, how much he alters the system. You know there is quite a market for the flashy styles out there, but the ultimate issue really depends on the customer. Personally, I think 'flashy' is worthless, but there are people out there that find it valuable, they love tournaments, and trophies and what not, to each his own. I do however believe, that the style does becomes less authentic, thus less realistic, once you begin to deviate from it and start to add all these flips and music and crap you see added in today for tournament's sake of competition.


I have to somewhat agree that "flashy" may seem less realistic. Per given it in comparison with actual combat? (I have seen a lot of katas from tradtionalists that do not seem so combat-ready) But, perhaps someone had started a school based on a new system, can they be less authentic? Given any art, upon its development, be considered as authentic, why can't a flashy one, upon its development, that desires this way, be so?

Why can't someone enjoy martial arts a a competitive sport like anything else? And, speaking to some of these competition martial artists, some are fully aware that their performance are not for combat. But does this make it less "real" for them?

It is like a old timer that shakes his head upon looking at a muscle car and remember the cars of the 20's, 30's, 40's, whatever. And imagine the people before him looking out his generation and shaking their heads.


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> No no no, I am saying that "Brazilian Ju Jitsu" is not taught in Japan. Does this make it less "real"


 Again I say get your facts straight......."Brazilian Jujutsu" *IS* taught in Japan


----------



## 47MartialMan

Ok, I stand corrected, but is it less "real" than any other there given its affix name or origin?


----------



## Jumper53

Due to a small word in the title of this thread, it has gone way off topic, if there is a dictionary and grammer forum we should move it there.

The topics of "real" and "authentic" has taken too much away from the very interesting start of this thread. We should be replacing the word "real" with the word "Martial" and the word "fake" with the word "entertainment". None of us can prove that our style is authentic, but some of us can prove that our style has Martial Application.

The problem before us is that in many modern ternaments, techniques with Martial applications are loosing out to athletic performances meant to entertain the untrained crowd. The only thing I see we can do is keep true to ourselves, teach the students who follow us Martial techniques, do Kata with Martial applications, use weapons wood/steel colored or painted black, and wear plain uniforms. 

The best we can hope for is that the free market system keeps the niche for people who want to learn Martial techniques. If there are enough of us we can have our own niche of tournaments where the judges are not impressed by flash. I doubt the untrained public looking for entertainment will come watch but we are not doing this for the spectators anyway. 

If we want to keep the Martial in Martial Arts we need to use our vote in the free market system. Support tournaments that impress you and avoid the ones that give trophies for the best coreography. And occasionally grab a member of the untrained public to educate them on the difference between a martial technique and gymnastics move.

Side Note: the athletic body needed to perform the flashy moves is a Martial asset. A back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination will rarely come up in a fight. But students should be taught that the ability to do a back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination, will make them better at cross-kicking the opponents knee. I think that many of the Asian Masters knew a lot about the realities of marketing themselves, they showed off the flash stuff to the public, but kept the secrets of Martial Techniques inside the Dojo.

:asian:


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Ok, I stand corrected, but is it less "real" than any other there given its affix name or origin?


 To be honest I don't see much difference between it's techniques and the many "Japanese" styles of Jujutsu. 
 Your logic of thinking calling an art by a different name some how makes it less "real" is flawed.
 I could call the art I teach "Billy Bob's Barroom Ryu" and it would still be just as effective as it is now. 
 The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1.) To be honest I don't see much difference between it's techniques and the many "Japanese" styles of Jujutsu.
> 
> 2.) Your logic of thinking calling an art by a different name some how makes it less "real" is flawed.
> 
> 3.) I could call the art I teach "Billy Bob's Barroom Ryu" and it would still be just as effective as it is now.
> 
> 4.) The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".


1.) Yeah, you should know-you know JuJitsu?

2.) As if, why label something Brazilian, or other country? And, is the Brazilian version wdiely accepted there as the "homeland". Some go as far as to say that it is "better".

3.) So you are relating effectiveness with "real"?

4.) In such that case I won't call them a knuckle head, but in their own mnd they are real.


----------



## 47MartialMan

Jumper53 said:
			
		

> Due to a small word in the title of this thread, it has gone way off topic, if there is a dictionary and grammer forum we should move it there.
> 
> The topics of "real" and "authentic" has taken too much away from the very interesting start of this thread. We should be replacing the word "real" with the word "Martial" and the word "fake" with the word "entertainment". None of us can prove that our style is authentic, but some of us can prove that our style has Martial Application.
> 
> The problem before us is that in many modern ternaments, techniques with Martial applications are loosing out to athletic performances meant to entertain the untrained crowd. The only thing I see we can do is keep true to ourselves, teach the students who follow us Martial techniques, do Kata with Martial applications, use weapons wood/steel colored or painted black, and wear plain uniforms.
> 
> The best we can hope for is that the free market system keeps the niche for people who want to learn Martial techniques. If there are enough of us we can have our own niche of tournaments where the judges are not impressed by flash. I doubt the untrained public looking for entertainment will come watch but we are not doing this for the spectators anyway.
> 
> If we want to keep the Martial in Martial Arts we need to use our vote in the free market system. Support tournaments that impress you and avoid the ones that give trophies for the best coreography. And occasionally grab a member of the untrained public to educate them on the difference between a martial technique and gymnastics move.
> 
> Side Note: the athletic body needed to perform the flashy moves is a Martial asset. A back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination will rarely come up in a fight. But students should be taught that the ability to do a back flip, jump hurricane split kick, spin kick, round off landing in the splits combination, will make them better at cross-kicking the opponents knee. I think that many of the Asian Masters knew a lot about the realities of marketing themselves, they showed off the flash stuff to the public, but kept the secrets of Martial Techniques inside the Dojo.
> 
> :asian:


This is the best I have read in this thread.

Perhaps, I can not state much more than this in this thread. Good writing and composition. :asian::asian::asian::asian::asian:...(Instead of 5 Stars)


----------



## RRouuselot

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1.) Yeah, you should know-you know JuJitsu?
> 
> 2.) As if, why label something Brazilian, or other country? And, is the Brazilian version wdiely accepted there as the "homeland". Some go as far as to say that it is "better".


 1) Don't I? 
 2) Some people think in a childish way.


----------



## 47MartialMan

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Don't I?
> 2) Some people think in a childish way.


:erg::erg::erg::erg::erg:


----------



## searcher

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Yes, I am his student.
> He is from Okinawa and lives in Independance, Missouri.
> His first dojo in the US was about just down the road from my house about 20 minutes away.


Thanks for the heads-up.   I think this will allow me to better understand your position and how to relate to your posts.   It gives me a good understanding of where your info comes from.


----------



## evenflow1121

4.) The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".


I have to agree with this, reminds me a few years ago I was reading this martial art magazine and it had an article on what they referred to as Black Belt Collectors.  I am assuming you are referring to the guys that go out get a black belt, move to the next system do the same, and then claim they have incorporated the most effective pieces of each system into the one they have created.  As if that could ever be accomplished.


----------



## 47MartialMan

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> 4.) The knuckle heads that claim they invented a better mouse trap by taking the best from each art they "briefly" studied (and are usually pretty unskilled at) and sticking a new name on it could be considered less than "real".
> 
> 
> I have to agree with this, reminds me a few years ago I was reading this martial art magazine and it had an article on what they referred to as Black Belt Collectors. I am assuming you are referring to the guys that go out get a black belt, move to the next system do the same, and then claim they have incorporated the most effective pieces of each system into the one they have created. As if that could ever be accomplished.


Hasn't it been from past eras per every martial art to absorbed fro other arts and areas of study? Hasn't any martial art been a "melting pot". Less the belt of course.

So a mixture of arts, witihn a decent time frame is "less real"?

Take for example-like Kajukenbo. No offense to Kajukenboists.

I did enjoy reading Jumper53, last post in this thread.


----------



## evenflow1121

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Hasn't it been from past eras per every martial art to absorbed fro other arts and areas of study? Hasn't any martial art been a "melting pot". Less the belt of course.
> 
> So a mixture of arts, witihn a decent time frame is "less real"?
> 
> Take for example-like Kajukenbo. No offense to Kajukenboists.
> 
> I did enjoy reading Jumper53, last post in this thread.


 
       I dont see anything wrong with a person well knowledged in two systems for example, incorporating what he or she believes works for them, but there are individuals out there that spend their lives collecting black belts, they recieve shodans and think that they are the outmost authority on a particular system.  Then they go out believing or convicing themselves that they have learned all there is to know in the system and decide to incorporate what they have learned (usually 3-4 years worth) into their own.  My point is that a lot of individuals spend a life time devoted to one particular matial art so atleast in that system most are well rounded vs the guy who keeps hopping around from system to system everytime they recieve a black belt and then decides to start his own thing claiming he is giving you the best of all worlds package, thus, his post reminded me of something I had read way back when in Black Belt Magazine of Inside Kung fu (I dont remember was almost 10 years ago).   In any event, the article was devoted to individuals who run around collecting shodans and start their own systems incorporating what they had learned in several styles but up to shodan, the problem was they would come across like if they were experts in multiple systems.  
      A mixture or ma's from within a descent time frame is not less real, I dont think that there is one ma out there that can be considered pure, but his line did catch my attention, because in the recent years I have seen quite a few schools sprout out where the head instructor had like 5 different shodans, and decided to create his own thing.  I dont have a problem with MMA's Kenpo is an MMA in many ways, its a mix of a few things, so are many other great styles, his post just took me back to that particular article I read many years ago, something I agree with.


----------



## 47MartialMan

evenflow1121,

Point well made. Very nicely put. Subtle, but still direct.

So, IYHO, a guy whom his born in 1976, studies an art in 1996. Trains in it til the year 2000. Receives a Black Belt (which on it is printed that he is a Assistant Instructor and cannot award a black belt rank to others) in 2001. In 2003, creates his own style and calls himself Sensei.

So will this classify as:
_......they go out believing or convicing themselves that they have learned all there is to know in the system and decide to incorporate what they have learned (usually 3-4 years worth) into their own_.

Thus, in hiw own mind, he is training "real"?


----------



## evenflow1121

If he truly believes it then its real, at least to him.  There is no such thing as reality it is a human made word.  My reality and your reality may be and I am probably taking a good guess that at least at some point will be quite different from each other.  Thus, reality is as real as just about any other word created by man, it is in the eye of the beholder.


----------



## BlackCatBonz

when someone reaches shodan......its kind of like graduating grammar school. youve been given the basics to go on learning how to apply them. if you never get beyond this level and move onto the next art to collect another shodan rank, you're again getting a group of basics without advanced insight. 
while i would agree that practicing on your own will increase your abilities, the fact that you are not receiving instruction from a qualified teacher in the advanced application and concepts, you are missing the majority of an art and operating under the assumption that your rank represents advanced knowledge.


----------



## 47MartialMan

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> when someone reaches shodan......its kind of like graduating grammar school. youve been given the basics to go on learning how to apply them. if you never get beyond this level and move onto the next art to collect another shodan rank, you're again getting a group of basics without advanced insight.
> while i would agree that practicing on your own will increase your abilities, the fact that you are not receiving instruction from a qualified teacher in the advanced application and concepts, you are missing the majority of an art and operating under the assumption that your rank represents advanced knowledge.


I see, but say that someone studies 5 years in one art. Another 5 years in yet another art. Then another 5 years in another. Another 5 years in another. One-more- 5 years in a 5th art, that is a total of 25 years. Can that not account for advanced knoweldge from combined study?

Where it may seem strange that say, some had collected, say 2-Dan, in each, multiply that by 5 (different arts) coming up with the number-10. Claiming they are the 10th dan on their "newly developed art", can this be so?

Not being silly, just pondering some ways people may think.


----------



## Ippon Ken

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Just adding another 2 cents to my earlier 2. (Thats what, 5 cents?)
> 
> I'm an Arnis practitioner. The founder of my art, Remy Presas had a background in Karate, Shotokan I believe. The forms we do in my system are modified Shotokan forms. At one point in time, the art was described as "Filipino Karate". So, am I doing Karate?
> 
> In my opinion, no. I'm doing Modern Arnis, which has some similarities and influences that are Karate, but it isn't Karate. I see Karate as a Japanese art. My opinions have been effected by the information I've read here and elsewhere. I wouldn't pick up an English broadsword and think I'm doing Kendo and more than I would pick up a Katana and think I was fencing. To me, specific terms apply to specific things...with a few exceptions.
> 
> I believe one can train with intensity, honesty and 'fire', but that is more dependant on the practitioner, than the art, IMO.
> 
> To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".


 I am part Filipino and lived in the Philipppines for ~7 years. While there I searched for a good MA to train in. I looked at every school and art imaginable, finally deciding on one that a combo of traditional and modern fighting methodology. It was a Shorin Ryu Shorinkan school. I must have visisted 3 Muay Thai gyms, 5 Escrima/Arnis/Kali schools, two Judo dojo, Okinawan Goju Ryu, Hung Gar, Kajukenbo, Boxing, Kickboxing etc. I picked Shorin Ryu because it looked tough and realistic without being too harmful for a growing teen.

What I did notice about the escrima guys was that what they were doing looked like good Okinawan karate, fencing, JJ, boxing and silat mixed. It looked a lot like more hunched shouldered Shorin Ryu fighting. Obviously, even Presas' technique was Shotokan influenced, but his ability to adapt his fighting style to his indigenous artform led to what looked like Shorin Ryu philosophy and mtethodology with some wider circles thrown in. He reivented the wheel.

I can tell you that the Filipinos kinda' laugh at Escrima and tend to gravitiate towards kickboxing, good karate, kickboxing and now MMAs. Escrima is seen as baduy, or "low-class", and without much merit beyond it being used to sneak up on Japanese in the 2nd WW and attacking them with guerilla tactics and bolos (small machetes). I don't know why there is this fascination for FMAs over good TOMAs here, but the Filipinos who know better tend to gravitate towards more realistic stuff, the stuff that has proven itself to work against thugs and the like. 

All the good karate has gone the way of all the good MAs. I don't think there was any here, for the most part, EVER. Like anything else the exemplary models are few and far between and in the USA you definitely won't find a good dojo in most strip-mall McDojos or Kid's Karate schools. The same can probably be said about Japan and other industrialized countries. Of course there might be exceptions or will be exceptions but not right now.


----------



## arnisador

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> To be honest I don't see much difference between it's techniques and the many "Japanese" styles of Jujutsu.


 Yeah, much of BJJ is found in Judo, but is less emphasized there nowadays.


----------



## evenflow1121

To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".

You are right, well  I agree with you, but its just that 'Karate' has become synonymous with the terms martial arts.  There was a time where if you were to look at your phone book to find martial arts schools, in many cities, they would be listed under "KARATE", irrespective of it being kung fu, or what not.


----------



## The Kai

evenflow1121 said:
			
		

> To me, "American Karate" is like saying "Japanese Kung Fu" or "Russian Tai Chi". It's just not "right".
> 
> You are right, well I agree with you, but its just that 'Karate' has become synonymous with the terms martial arts. There was a time where if you were to look at your phone book to find martial arts schools, in many cities, they would be listed under "KARATE", irrespective of it being kung fu, or what not.


Is'nt Kempo another way of saying Chan Fa, which is of course the Chinese art of the fist.  So has the renaming not been done before?  I suppose we couls stick with the strict translation and tell people we are going to the empty hand school or the empty hand tournament, but that a is tad "clumsy".

Ed Parker seemed to be fine using american kenpo, of course he did not waffle using japanese terms and titles, tho he respected (and was respected) the chinese community he was'nt afraid to say -this is an american art-


----------



## clfsean

The Kai said:
			
		

> Is'nt Kempo another way of saying Chan Fa, which is of course the Chinese art of the fist. So has the renaming not been done before? I suppose we couls stick with the strict translation and tell people we are going to the empty hand school or the empty hand tournament, but that a is tad "clumsy".
> 
> Ed Parker seemed to be fine using american kenpo, of course he did not waffle using japanese terms and titles, tho he respected (and was respected) the chinese community he was'nt afraid to say -this is an american art-


Kempo is Okinawan (Hogen.... I think) for quan fa. 

That's why Parker had the respect he did. He didn't call it what it wasn't. He called it what it was. More people should/could look & learn from that.


----------



## 47MartialMan

The Kai said:
			
		

> Is'nt Kempo another way of saying Chan Fa, which is of course the Chinese art of the fist. So has the renaming not been done before?


Quan fa, as in some translations, pending on which Chinese Dialect (the have many) means "fist technique"

It was thought by some scholars to be the true wording for a Chinese Martial Art and not Gung Fu (which is a misnomer now used/replacing Chuan Fa for reference sake)

In some Chinese arts, there are "family" arts, that have the family name, with a reference to it being a art. For example, Li Gah (Ga/Gar) Kuen (Kuyhn/Kune) simply meaning "Li Family Fist".

So many outside "old traditonal" Chinese martial arts will use the term Gung Fu. Whereas some "old traditonal" Chinese purists (getting fewer per passing decades) will use the term Chuan Fa.


----------



## clfsean

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> Whereas some "old traditonal" Chinese purists (getting fewer per passing decades) will use the term Chuan Fa.


Really??? So my sifu, my sigung... the people I met & trained with in mainland China & from mainland China weren't "old traditional purists" by not using a term??? 

I give... :idunno:


----------



## 47MartialMan

clfsean said:
			
		

> Really??? So my sifu, my sigung... the people I met & trained with in mainland China & from mainland China weren't "old traditional purists" by not using a term???
> 
> I give... :idunno:


I did state "some".....I do not inmply those that do not re less important.


----------



## kishoto

real karate is still there but not at most tournaments. tournaments today have become a sporting compitition not a training tool.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia

kishoto said:
			
		

> real karate is still there but not at most tournaments. tournaments today have become a sporting compitition not a training tool.


I kind of agree with you... Mirakian sensei from Meibukan Goju described his experiences here http://www.geocities.com/hpchan8/amintvw.html  and he stated that in Okinawa at the time he trained (1950s) there was very little free sparring if any, almost no competition and lots of basic techniques... they do only basic techniques and kata for years before learning sparring.


----------



## jbclinic

i agree, what happened to real martial arts? fact of the matter is that in america in oder to continue martial progress"pay for the info/trianing" we must compensate. i would love to see the actual wieghted weapons used in performances, which the artist,then would under what breath control is and find that there is more than just looking good


----------



## JAMJTX

The degradation of karate began a long time ago in the early 1900's when it was watered down and introduced to the Okinawa schools and taught to children for physical education.  Once the goal became popluarization and internationalization, the fate of karate was sealed.

If you want an art to spread around the world and get as many people as you can to stay in it for a lifetime, it has to be fun and easy with little to no risk of injury.

There are still some people in the U.S. who teach "real karate".  But it is unlikely that you wil lfind them teaching in public places.  It takes too much money to rent a suitable dojo so classes have to be slick, watered down and commercialized for economic reasons - unless you can find a few people willing to pay $2,000/month for class.  If you teach at other places, you have to water it down for insurance reasons - there will always be things that you are not allowed to do/teach.  I fyo are etaching at the Y or someplace and you have 3 students because 98% keep quitting in the first 30 days, then they will cancel the class and put in something that will get 30 people involved - regardless of what it is.

"real karate" is something that there just is not enough interest in to make it commercially viable.  Even those instructors who came here from Japan/Okinawa and the early pioneers never taught here as they were taught there.


----------



## Explorer

Hi guys,

The real karate is still out there ... moreso because so many of you are looking for it.  Keep it up, hold yourself to a high standard.  And when you're in a position to do so, give back by being the kind of teacher you always wanted and needed.

Over the past few years we've been working with the Kusho Jitsu Kenkukai founded by Chris Thomas (he writes the pressure point books with George Dillman).  I've been very happy with the way bunkai and oyo are used to help each martial artist develop kata interpretations that work for self-defense purposes.  In this way each student develops a personal art that functions for them on every level.

We attend seminars based around this kind of thinking instead of tournaments and have found them very beneficial.


----------



## TimoS

Explorer said:
			
		

> The real karate is still out there ...



Heh! One of my friends would go ballistic if he saw Dillman and real karate being used in the same message


----------



## Explorer

I was quite a skeptic too.  Until I attended a seminar he was teaching.  I was extremely surprised to run into my old friend, Chris Thomas, and began talking and working with him.  

I told him about my skepticisim and his response intrigued me ... he said ... "It's good to be skeptical.  Don't take my word for it.  Train with me and see for yourself.  If, in the end you find no value in what we teach, feel free to discard the training."  

The past 5 years have been very interesting.  Much of my skepticisim is now gone as I see the concepts working.  I'm not always a fan of the techniques they use to display a concept ... but the concepts have, so far, proven themselves to me.

I've been involved in martial arts since 1969 ... I've seen a lot of stuff.  I really like the way Master Thomas teaches ... more like a college class than an indoctrination.  His mind is open and felxible and he's unafraid of skepticism.  I like that.

I call what he teaches 'Classical Martial Arts' as opposed to Traditional.  Of course, it's perfectly fine for someone to train in a way they are convinced is useful and it's uncharitable to treat them harshly just because they hold a different view.


----------



## pstarr

I think it's time for the traditional martial arts people to get together and make some noise.  Conduct our own events (even if they're small at the outset) and let our opinions be heard...
     For too long we've stayed in the background with our hands in our pockets (or wherever) and taken a "live and let live" attitude.  What we're seeing now is the result of our failure to stand up and speak out.


----------



## CTKempo Todd

The Prof said:
			
		

> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.
> 
> The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.
> 
> No matter how good you are with the weapon it&#8217;s the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
> My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?
> 
> "Bring n the barf bags."


 
I agree....

The screaming belongs somewhere else..There is a difference between a Kiai and sitting there for 10 seconds trying to audition for a horror movie sound byte.
The last tournament I went to there was a 14 year old girl (2nd or 3rd dan, can't remember) who would complete a move and where a Kiai would go, she'd sit there and wail a scream that would break a window (of course she had her eyes closed the entire time)..Yes guessed it 1st place..

Regarding the gymnastics..YES IT IS GYMNASTICS!!! not martial arts..While I agree that it is incredibley athletic (so is the WWE), it is not what we are taught in a martial arts school..
My guess is most of these moves are being learned in a gymnastics school and not at a martial arts school.

The most gymnastic-like styles are the Chinese kung-fu/wushu systems and I would not be surprised if those style representations in these big tournaments we see on TV are in the minority (at least for hand forms anyway)


----------



## thescottishdude

my old karate class was very good and the only complaint it had was that it didn't teach weapons. not just that class but the whole federation!!!


----------



## trueaspirer

I couldnt agree more (with the original post). Its truly sad how theatrical karate has become. 
-*sighs*-


----------



## pstarr

So...the question begs...what can we do to promote traditional martial arts and get John Q. Public ENTHUSIASTIC about learning them (as opposed to wushu gymnastics and all the rest).?


----------



## Explorer

> pstarr said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So...the question begs...what can we do to promote traditional martial arts and get John Q. Public ENTHUSIASTIC about learning them (as opposed to wushu gymnastics and all the rest).?
Click to expand...


I think it's word of mouth.  I recently had a student who was going to leave the dojo because his schooling would conflict with our schedule and he must've visited 10 different schools in the area.  He came back and told us how disappointed he was because ... "The only ones who seem to know anything about fighting are you guys."  As it happens he can't afford the college he wanted so we get to keep him for a while longer.  Think he'll be a walking testimonial?

After thinking for a minute... I hate to say it but I think it'll take a heavy PR campaign ... $10k or more to penetrate any given market.  Press Releases, seminars, Community College classes, being the expert the news media goes to for answers to personal safety issues.  We just did a story with a cable news channel about the issue of choking.  Apparently, many women in the Twin Cities are deathly afraid of being choked!  Every lttle bit helps.  We've also just started a video podcast ... every week it's a new technique from a classical form or basic drills.


----------



## pstarr

It's clear that the gymnastic/hyena-shouting/electric pink uniform crowd gets a great deal of press and they manage to keep themselves in the public eye.

What else do you think we, as traditional martial arts practitioners, could do to garner the same kind of attention on a regular basis?...and get people excited about traditional training?


----------



## Rook

pstarr said:
			
		

> What else do you think we, as traditional martial arts practitioners, could do to garner the same kind of attention on a regular basis?...and get people excited about traditional training?


 
Well, there are vaguely two parts of martial arts - the cultural/philosophical/entertainment/showoff side and the fighting skills side.  

I find it hard to see how many traditional schools will resist pulling apart.  In the past (especially in the 60s) traditional schools made those seeking quasi-Oriental seeking individuals fight, and made fighters put up with quasi-Orientalism.  Today, XMA and McDojos provide the quasi-Oriental culture without the hard work of fighting, and MMA provides fighting without the quasi-Oriental culture.  Most people are covered from one of these two angles... its hard to see what your niche market will be.


----------



## jasonearle

The Prof said:
			
		

> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.
> 
> The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.
> 
> No matter how good you are with the weapon its the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
> My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?
> 
> "Bring n the barf bags."


 
I'm right there with ya bro!   I'm fortunate to of learned karate in the real way you talked about.   We don't try to do any of that flashy looking stuff and we use practical weapons more, like a staff, knives, escrima, and gun defenses.  How often are you going to get in a fight were someone pulls out nunchaku or a 3 sectional staff?  its cool to learn and looks cool in a tournament but doesn't seem to serve any practical application purposes outside that.  We do sword stuff in black belt, simply because its way cool and very traditional and we like to honor tradition without being slaves to it.  I've been to a few tournaments and had to refrain from laughter sometimes when I see some of the people doing forms that consist of nothing more than different flips or showy stuff, like throwing their spinning staff 10 ft. in the air.  I think it was how constipated they looked when they screamed like they were being disembowled, that made me laugh the hardest.    All that stuff is fine if you are in it for the competition and tournament side and I'm not going to say that everyone that does that can't fight but, I've seen the same people being flashy in the forms,  really really suck when they get in to spar.   It all depends on the individual and why you are in martial arts so I'm not going to try on diss on people like that, just an observation.


----------



## twendkata71

*I will go a step further and say that I have seen karate people that spend so much time focusing on tournaments that they could not  survive a real street situation. These XMA kids come to mind.  Martial gymnastics would be a better term than Extreme Martial arts. *









			
				jasonearle said:
			
		

> I'm right there with ya bro! I'm fortunate to of learned karate in the real way you talked about. We don't try to do any of that flashy looking stuff and we use practical weapons more, like a staff, knives, escrima, and gun defenses. How often are you going to get in a fight were someone pulls out nunchaku or a 3 sectional staff? its cool to learn and looks cool in a tournament but doesn't seem to serve any practical application purposes outside that. We do sword stuff in black belt, simply because its way cool and very traditional and we like to honor tradition without being slaves to it. I've been to a few tournaments and had to refrain from laughter sometimes when I see some of the people doing forms that consist of nothing more than different flips or showy stuff, like throwing their spinning staff 10 ft. in the air. I think it was how constipated they looked when they screamed like they were being disembowled, that made me laugh the hardest. All that stuff is fine if you are in it for the competition and tournament side and I'm not going to say that everyone that does that can't fight but, I've seen the same people being flashy in the forms, really really suck when they get in to spar. It all depends on the individual and why you are in martial arts so I'm not going to try on diss on people like that, just an observation.


----------



## searcher

So, when does the revolution start?   I am ready for us to "make some noise."


----------



## pstarr

In my area (Omaha, NE) I'm planning to get as many of the traditional martial arts teachers - of all varieties of martial arts - together at a local coffee shop or small restaurant to brainstorm about what we can do to increase awareness of and enthusiasm for, traditional martial arts out here.

It's a place to start.  We've got to work together.


----------



## Jonathan Randall

pstarr said:
			
		

> It's clear that the gymnastic/hyena-shouting/electric pink uniform crowd gets a great deal of press and they manage to keep themselves in the public eye.
> 
> What else do you think we, as traditional martial arts practitioners, could do to garner the same kind of attention on a regular basis?...and get people excited about traditional training?


 
Good question - I'd love to see a specific thread just on that subject.

I think that traditionalism will never have the attraction that the fast food MA stuff does. However; think of all the instant gratification folks you don't have to deal with as a result of the popularity of McDojo's!


----------



## twendkata71

*That sounds like a great idea. Here in the Columbus area there are a *
*great deal of traditional martial arts schools and instructors. *












			
				pstarr said:
			
		

> In my area (Omaha, NE) I'm planning to get as many of the traditional martial arts teachers - of all varieties of martial arts - together at a local coffee shop or small restaurant to brainstorm about what we can do to increase awareness of and enthusiasm for, traditional martial arts out here.
> 
> It's a place to start. We've got to work together.


----------



## kicksindabank

I think we all have become slack in our martial arts. We are not will to place hard work because we don't get the reward instantly. 

Our society is focuse on how to get the reward quickly without any discomfort. We are into instant total gradification.

Our goals should be to bring back a sense of hard work, dedication, and strong vaules in martial arts.


----------



## twendkata71

*That sound correct.  I think that we should strive to get back to a good work ethic and focus.*










			
				kicksindabank said:
			
		

> I think we all have become slack in our martial arts. We are not will to place hard work because we don't get the reward instantly.
> 
> Our society is focuse on how to get the reward quickly without any discomfort. We are into instant total gradification.
> 
> Our goals should be to bring back a sense of hard work, dedication, and strong vaules in martial arts.


----------



## JasonASmith

twendkata71 said:


> *That sound correct. I think that we should strive to get back to a good work ethic and focus.*


At the Dojo, Sensei and some of the senior students refer to this generation as the Playstation generation...Most would rather sit in front of the T.V. and play games than deal with the real world, and how hard you must work to get anywhere in it...I see what they are talking about during class...Sensei, and(especially) Sempai are always attempting to drill some kind of a work ethic into these kids, with varying degrees of success...Hopefully something will turn these kids around soon, because I don't want to see this Dojo sink into mediocrity, or worse, close completely...Sensei and the cadre of Yudansha have a lot to teach, and I've got a lot to learn...That' s a recipe for a winning situation, for me, and for everyone else as well.


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart

pstarr said:


> In my area (Omaha, NE) I'm planning to get as many of the traditional martial arts teachers - of all varieties of martial arts - together at a local coffee shop or small restaurant to brainstorm about what we can do to increase awareness of and enthusiasm for, traditional martial arts out here.
> 
> It's a place to start. We've got to work together.


 
This is a great idea, however most people have little desire to learn "Real Karate" when they can learn easy stuff and get the same recognition. I wont get started on Extreme Martial Arts, a new fad kinda like Wushu to the Chinese, just for show. There are real people out there. I learn more about my style everyday, and will continue to do this. When we stop learning, we are done, IMHO. PStarr, I hope your idea works. Let me know what happens. 

On a side note, as I read through this thread I see that a lot of the people who have posted are banned/account closed. I wonder why this happens so often. I myself get tired of the M.A.B.S. and stop posting for a few months, then a post will get my attention and I will start again. Fact is, fake or real, what matters is what you can do when you step on the Dojo floor.


----------



## Hand Sword

As an answer to the question of the post, I would say, underground for the most part. For the sake of this argument, "fake Karate", has gotten so widespread that it has achieved "soccer mom" status,culturally speaking. Look at the commercials on tv, how parents speak openly about their child's study of the arts, the comical stuff that portrays the arts, etc.. Most dojo's are basically day care centers, and workout centers.


----------



## Sensei Paul Hart

I have decided to start a Frappr Map of people who desire to be thought of as Karateka, not sport Karate or anything like that, but Traditional Karate with the idea of Life Preservation at it's core. If that fits any of you please visit it and put up a tag. It is located at 

http://www.frappr.com/karateamerica

I hope that people will be able to go to it to find a quality school and I will try to make sure no XMA or GymKarate styles get posted. If you happen to see a Dojo near you, go and visit and then let me know what you find, this way we can get a network of Traditional Dojo that want Old Karate Ways to endure.


----------



## Hand Sword

Good luck and good hunting all!


----------



## twendkata71

*I thought about this subject for quite a while and I think that the " real karate" started to disapear when instructors decided to go completely commercial and make their living from karate teaching. *
*They had to modifiy their teaching to fit the general public. Couldn't keep too many students if they were exposed to the brutality of training for "real, old style karate". The training is extremely rough. I remember going home nightly with bruises, pain everywhere. I loved the training, but did not like the recovery.  I think that the in general the public has gotten used to being pampered and do not like the thought of that type of training. Those of use that do appreciate that type of karate are few and far between.*


----------



## JasonASmith

twendkata71 said:


> *I thought about this subject for quite a while and I think that the " real karate" started to disapear when instructors decided to go completely commercial and make their living from karate teaching. *
> *They had to modifiy their teaching to fit the general public. Couldn't keep too many students if they were exposed to the brutality of training for "real, old style karate". The training is extremely rough. I remember going home nightly with bruises, pain everywhere. I loved the training, but did not like the recovery. I think that the in general the public has gotten used to being pampered and do not like the thought of that type of training. Those of use that do appreciate that type of karate are few and far between.*


 
I agree with you whole-heartedly...
Often times when I hear Sensei speak of the old days,  I wonder if he would have any students at all if he decided to change back to the way it was when he was coming up...
Hopefully there would be a few, but I don't think that I would hold my breath too much...


----------



## Hand Sword

Sadly true, gentlemen. Maybe, in the Dojos, there should be extra classes to sign up for that teach that way, for those that want to. If not, just as I've seen, Home/garage/park sessions for smaller, select groups?


----------



## twendkata71

*If you have the funds and really want that type of training, you can still go to Okinawa and get that old style training. There of course are also those type of dojo's in Japan and Korea. If your thing is Chinese there are many school there as well.  *
*You can find some dojo that teach that way here in the US. But, usually they are not in the yellow pages and you have to be recomended by one of their students. That type of training goes on heart and self discipline.  Sadly, the reason that traditional martial arts have in recent years been viewed as impractical for real self defense is that those school are few and far between and are hard to find.*


----------



## Hand Sword

That and the prolification and promotion of the MMA's. Combine that with the watered down arts as the reference point for the newer artists, you have that mind set about the TMA's.


----------



## kingkong89

true hat traditionhas been replaced w/ flash. it is because there are people out there that want to see more then slow tradition, they want speed and stuff they think is cool


----------



## JasonASmith

kingkong89 said:


> true hat traditionhas been replaced w/ flash. it is because there are people out there that want to see more then slow tradition, they want speed and stuff they think is cool


That's true, unfortunately...
The question remains, though, how can we get away from just that?


----------



## Seeking Zen

twendkata71 said:


> *I thought about this subject for quite a while and I think that the " real karate" started to disapear when instructors decided to go completely commercial and make their living from karate teaching. *
> *They had to modifiy their teaching to fit the general public. Couldn't keep too many students if they were exposed to the brutality of training for "real, old style karate". The training is extremely rough. I remember going home nightly with bruises, pain everywhere. I loved the training, but did not like the recovery.  I think that the in general the public has gotten used to being pampered and do not like the thought of that type of training. Those of use that do appreciate that type of karate are few and far between.*



Thanks for pointing out the "bruises and pain everywhere", I have always got something. I was starting to think it was me.  Other MA I interact with at work are always coming in with medals and talking about this weekends tournament...while I seem to always be recovering from class.  It is rare that we participate in tournaments 3-4 times /year tops.  My Sensei is not a fan and puts very little stock or time in tournaments or preparation there of.


----------



## chinto

okinawagojuryu said:


> Pleae look up the word Martial in the dictionary , Andrew . True Kata , is not theatrical , you are practicing life protection skills . Your reply indicates , that you do not understand Kata , & might as well be dancing , or perhaps gymnastics , because that is the garbage that is at todays tournaments . It makes me sick !
> Mark , it would take much more than us to start a new circuit . If we could get more people involved , it might work out . I have'nt competed in years , & most of the people I train w/ dont compete anymore , or never competed at all .
> I'm getting to the point , where it's nothing but a waste of time , & money to compete . Tournaments these days cost sooo much money , all it's good for , is to make the promoters pockets fat . My Karate now , is for me . Not for anyone else . I dont need somone who has no clue as to what I'm doin , or any clue as to the bunkai of the kata , to tell me if i'm doin the kata right , or wrong . As far as the fighting is concerned it's a joke ! If they would try that game of tag on the street , they would get hurt . For kids , tournaments are ok , because it helps build their confidence , etc . But , as adults their nothing more than a waste of time ! I'd much rather spend my money on training , or taking my wife to a movie , or something , than goin to a cirus like that !
> 
> David


 

I have to agree that the turnements you see on ESPN and even out there in citys are getting to where if you are not a gymnest with an aluminum kama that is over sized bladed and dull so it could not cut butter.. or a carbon fiber 1/4" thick 2 oz bo.. and look like a majorett twerling her batton they do not seem to do well.  I detest what i have seen along that lines. It is a real shame that a really well done kata of the old traditional and efficent and effective technique type is aparently not even recognized as it does not look like something out of the bad old movie "gymkata"


----------



## Chizikunbo

The Prof said:


> Over the past several years I have seen real Karate replaced with acrobatics, loud screaming, (not to be confused with kiai) bad sportsmanship, arrogant instructors or coaches and deplorable conduct by parents.
> 
> The weapons forms have become extremely flashy. Real weapons have been replaced with garbage. The Bo Staff replaced with giant super light weight tooth picks. Chinese Swords replaced with flexible tin of some sort.
> 
> No matter how good you are with the weapon its the back flips and other non related theatrics that gets the win.
> My concern is that people cannot separate showmanship from real defensive techniques. I have seen self defense demonstrations that would get you killed if you tried that crap on the streets. When entering into a self defense category of a tournament, the legitimate self defense will always lose to the theatrical stuff. Will we ever return to the real deal again?
> 
> "Bring n the barf bags."



It ran off to missouri, in Independence to be exact under the guidence of a master known as Taik Seiyu Oyata ;-)
--Josh


----------



## Em MacIntosh

I win all kinds of tournaments with my triple-somersault-spinning jumping-jacks.


----------



## Nebuchadnezzar

Ask the countless Sokes that have popped up,  they surely must know.

(You all know I'm being sarcastic right?) :angel:


----------



## Em MacIntosh

If tournaments stressed effectiveness over entertainment they would be worth participating in.  I don't take karate to entertain myself or others (I stay entertained as a by-product of training).  "Movie Jitsu" has gotten way out of hand.  I hope none of these champions and medalists get jumped in the parking lot!


----------



## Nebuchadnezzar

Em MacIntosh said:


> If tournaments stressed effectiveness over entertainment they would be worth participating in. I don't take karate to entertain myself or others (I stay entertained as a by-product of training). "Movie Jitsu" has gotten way out of hand. I hope none of these champions and medalists get jumped in the parking lot!


 
Although, it might be what they need to see that they can't fight.  As long as the incident doesn't result in serious or permanent injury or even worse death.


----------



## chinto

Em MacIntosh said:


> I win all kinds of tournaments with my triple-somersault-spinning jumping-jacks.


 

LOL!!  the scarry part is that it provably would win as gymnastics seem to be more important to some of the people involved then any martial aplication or usefullness in self defence or any other kind of aplication in an altercation.


----------



## chinto

Em MacIntosh said:


> If tournaments stressed effectiveness over entertainment they would be worth participating in. I don't take karate to entertain myself or others (I stay entertained as a by-product of training). "Movie Jitsu" has gotten way out of hand. I hope none of these champions and medalists get jumped in the parking lot!


 

yep, if they do I think, enless they are hideing some real ability to use the unmodified techniques from the old kata, that they will get their head handed to them.


----------



## MMAfighter

ya know...i actually ehar that it's rare to find a very legit karate dojo in America since there are so many Mcdojos around....so oyu have to be careful about where oyu look...or that American karate is nothing like the way it is taught in Japan...same thing as judo....i dunno if this is true or not, jsut osmething i heard


----------



## chinto

MMAfighter said:


> ya know...i actually ehar that it's rare to find a very legit karate dojo in America since there are so many Mcdojos around....so oyu have to be careful about where oyu look...or that American karate is nothing like the way it is taught in Japan...same thing as judo....i dunno if this is true or not, jsut osmething i heard


 
ti think that depends on the style of karate.  the old style okinawan karate dojo's are more likely to be teaching the real thing in the same way as they are tought on okinawa.  where i study is tought very much along the same lines as it is tought on okinawa its self. one of our brown belts about 4 years ago went to okinawa in the airforce. he went to Osensei's dojo and asked to train with him. he said " show me your kata and he did and the certificates too, and Osensei said  " mmm, good kata, you are brown belt, you train here every week!"


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## chinto

Sensei Paul Hart said:


> I have decided to start a Frappr Map of people who desire to be thought of as Karateka, not sport Karate or anything like that, but Traditional Karate with the idea of Life Preservation at it's core. If that fits any of you please visit it and put up a tag. It is located at
> 
> http://www.frappr.com/karateamerica
> 
> I hope that people will be able to go to it to find a quality school and I will try to make sure no XMA or GymKarate styles get posted. If you happen to see a Dojo near you, go and visit and then let me know what you find, this way we can get a network of Traditional Dojo that want Old Karate Ways to endure.


 
sorry thought I should tell you could not get that link to open at all


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## Ella

Hey, I found it!
It's been hiding behind the couch the whole time!





sorry, couldnt resist.


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## chinto

Ella said:


> Hey, I found it!
> It's been hiding behind the couch the whole time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry, couldnt resist.


'

LOL~!


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## chinto

Ella said:


> Hey, I found it!
> It's been hiding behind the couch the whole time!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sorry, couldnt resist.


 

nope your wrong!!  I just found it and it was hiding behind the washing machine! had a 5th of single malt single cask scotch too! :drinkbeer



ok..ok.. so sorry.. could not resist that come back tonight..... hot .. little sleep and all that :angel:


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## kingkong89

people dont want real karate anymore they want hollywood and excitement


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## chinto

kingkong89 said:


> people dont want real karate anymore they want hollywood and excitement


 

I dont know about that so much, as I think meany do not want to work hard and sweat a lot and all that for real techniques for real fights.  the effort is just to much from their perspective I guess with out some kind of flash and glamor added.


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## Uchinanchu

An interesting (and sad) situation for all practioners to consider when choosing to enter the tournament arenas outside of Japan/Okinawa.  It still amazes me how it is like night and day when comparing the western concept of a so-called "tournament" to the traditional Taikai that still exists today in Japan and Okinawa.

Of course, the modern day version of the taikai has its flaws as well.  Many so-called modern day traditional dojo now teach two versions of kata, one for the regular dojo practice and one solely for tournament competion.  The competion kata still adheres to a traditional format, but has been "tweaked" to look more asthetically pleasing to the eye. (ie.-crisper, snappier movements).  
Sadly, more  and more schools seem to be teaching only the "tweaked" versions and have, in the process, lost many of the basic underlying principals that are supposed to make up their respective styles.  
Just my two cents worth.
Yoroshiku


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## hungfistron

The real Karate has never left, it has only been mostly forgotten and unknown to most individuals that do not practice Classical Budo.  When Ego and money is left out of it, then it is pure no matter what style we are talking about.  There is a distinct difference between a Martial Art style and a Martial Art style being used for sport.  

If you are looking for "the real" as you put it, you will find it where ego, money, and winning is not.


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## searcher

The real karate has done what it did in the past, it is now being trained by many instructors in private or with a select few students.   Then they teach the public a watered-down version.


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## JWLuiza

There are tournaments where traditional forms are appreciated and awarded. The last tournament I competed in, I was thanked for actually focusing on my weapon during a kata and not jump spinning 360s.


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## seasoned

It is very hard to add anything, to what has been said. There are a few DoJo out there, where the Sensei still teaches the virtues of the traditional arts, but they are getting far and few between, Sadly though, the general public, because of all the movie sensationalism, just wont stand for anything less they all that frill.


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## Uchinanchu

hungfistron said:


> The real Karate has never left, it has only been mostly forgotten and unknown to most individuals that do not practice Classical Budo. When Ego and money is left out of it, then it is pure no matter what style we are talking about. There is a distinct difference between a Martial Art style and a Martial Art style being used for sport.
> 
> If you are looking for "the real" as you put it, you will find it where ego, money, and winning is not.


 
I wholeheartedly concur with your opinion on traditional arts vs. sport aspect.  I felt that I should point out to you though, that karate is not considered a "classical budo" by the Japanese.   Point in fact, karate originally was not considered a budo art at all, since it came into being through the Okinawans via China.  It was not until much later, when karate started getting noticed by the Japanese, that many Okinawan masters wished to have their respective systems of karate recognized by the Japanese as a legitimate system.  Thus, that was the true "beginning of the end" for karate as a unique art to Okinawa.


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## joewtka

I totally understand you question sir. For those who have never trained in Traditional Karate, you speak Greek. They have no concept of the old school style of Karate Do. I have seen some of the commements and answers to your question and it proves that they don't understand. Martial Arts has eveolved into somewhat of
paralele universe. The perfomance world and the true wold of what was passed down from the forefathers of Karate Do. WHile I have great respect for the perormance abilities and amazing feets of martial gymnastics, It is not for me. The traditional arts once inbreaded into ones soul becomes the only way that will be accepted. The Great unakoshi said, Martial Arts will evolve. I don't think he knew just how much his statement would come to. If you really want to experience Traditional Martial Arts Competition, please see usankf.org The USANKF is the National Governing Body for Olympic Competition in Traditional Karate. As far as this topic goes for Traditional Karate, competiton was developed to test ones skills against students from other styles and other Dojos. As for the origional performance of Kata. Allow me to say that Ktata is nothting more than Kihon Waza (Basic Technique)  unless the student has been taught the Bunkai of the Kata. In the BUnkai (Application and Understanding) there are several levels of knowledge about each kata. The basic Bunkai (What is my apponent doing and what am I doig to defend against it). Gokui Bunkai (The inner most Secrets of the Kata), the Oyo Bunkai ( How to end each comfrontation with in the Kata) and the Kakushi Bunkai (The hidden Techiques that only few left alive today know). If one truely knows his/her kata form these areas of Bunkai, the he she will be able to perform their kata with the abilty to display these areas of knowledge. There is also the elements of a true kata performance. But then, I would right a book to explain all of this. In my 52 years of Karate training, I have seen Traditional karate Ka, and Modern Martial Artists. I choose the tradition.
Shihan Joe Williams


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## Steve

searcher said:


> The real karate has done what it did in the past, it is now being trained by many instructors in private or with a select few students.   Then they teach the public a watered-down version.


Is this true?  There are secret, uber deadly versions of karate being taught?  Neat.


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## hungfistron

Uchinanchu said:


> I wholeheartedly concur with your opinion on traditional arts vs. sport aspect.  I felt that I should point out to you though, that karate is not considered a "classical budo" by the Japanese.   Point in fact, karate originally was not considered a budo art at all, since it came into being through the Okinawans via China.  It was not until much later, when karate started getting noticed by the Japanese, that many Okinawan masters wished to have their respective systems of karate recognized by the Japanese as a legitimate system.  Thus, that was the true "beginning of the end" for karate as a unique art to Okinawa.




Wanted to do some research on this statement by my good friend _Uchinanchu_.  Here's what I found man...



> The word "bu" of budo is written with the chinese character for stop within a character signifying two crossed halberds meaning *to stop conflict*. Since karate _is a budo_, this meaning should be deeply considered, and the fists should not be used heedlessly.
> 
> _Karate-Do Kyohan_ aka *The Master Text*




That being said any martial art whether its based in Okinawa or not if used by a student that is a practitioner of budo, or seeks to _stop conflict_, and passes on this work to others even in death _is practicing Budo_.


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## searcher

stevebjj said:


> Is this true? There are secret, uber deadly versions of karate being taught? Neat.


 

Yes, and I am standing right behind you in all my ninja goodness.:whip::matrix::ninja:


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## Uchinanchu

hungfistron said:


> Wanted to do some research on this statement by my good friend _Uchinanchu_. Here's what I found man...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That being said any martial art whether its based in Okinawa or not if used by a student that is a practitioner of budo, or seeks to _stop conflict_, and passes on this work to others even in death _is practicing Budo_.


 
From a philosophical (and training) point of view, I can agree with your statement, but I was talking about it from an historical point. The Japanese have what is referred to as "koryu" arts or "classical" bujutsu. Classical budo followed these arts during the Tokugawa reign. It wasn't until around the meiji era that modern budo and bujutsu came about. This of course all took place in Japan.
Karate was never designated as a "classical budo" because it simply did not exist as such in mainland Japan. Point in fact, the classically trained bushi considered most forms of unarmed combat beneath them because it was something regarded as a peasant's/merchant's form of fighting (brawling). Of course, they did practice certain forms of grappling in full armor, but even in this, they used weapons such as knives for finishing off their oppenents.


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## hungfistron

Thanks for clearing that up for me bro, thats why its so _good_ to have these discussions


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## kailat

Hey guys I dont get on here much anymore. Not sure when I will after i make this post. But the topic at question here needs a great deal of attention.  I've been involved in the martial arts in one way or another since early 1985.  I started back when the PKC karate tournaments were a big and I mean BIG deal.  Schools from all over the midwest would travel and compete at these events.  What has happened that I seen over the years is the lack of devotion for the karate tournament scene has ceased.  Many, the original shihans have retired such as Glenn Keeny, Ron White, Eddie Bethea to name a few.  Although they may still train rarely, they have given the tournament scene a rest and the PKC has fallen due to it.  The last real tournament i went to, shown real lack of poor judgement and sportsmanship.  Back when I was a young teen going up the ranks these prestigeous events were well monitored and handled with great care.  Today, the judges are pissy when on the board, many the students are ranked way above thier skill level and it shows in the competion level.  It downright urks many higher ranking black belts.  As someone mentioned the new age black belt is like 13yrs old in some cases.  I'll never forget when I had a 14 yr old "CHILD" sitting on the judge panel with me, the last time I attended a tourmament.  Not to mention I had one said individual a higher recognized black belt from another school/dojo start screaming profanity at the children in his care.  I was totally appauled and not to mention just disgusted w/ the whole thing. I vowed never to go back to another one and or support it and I have not been back since.  That was about 4 to 5 years ago.  I saw 2 black belt instructors of two seperate dojo's fighting and actually hit one another in the hallway of the event over bad blood sort of thing.  To only be broken up by Shihan Ron White and he was so badly disrespected that I was just so over it I had left and never to return to that scene since.  Where has the class and the true meaning of the art went? It is all about winning now at any cost.  KATA 's have been changed up and reformated to be ran and performed better for comptetion purposes, and not for the actual way it was performed.  I recently had taught a black belt kata bassai sho to a group of brown belts.  After 3 weeks of returning I had seen this kata being performed completely different than how i had taught it, in order to make it more flashy and showy!  I was completely PISSED off about this!  I brought it to the Sensei attention and was given the well they think this way looks better.. IM LIKE WTF??? Since when does the brown belts have the right to make a decision whether a kata looks better one way than another to the instructor?   WOW, I've left that school alone since as well.  I've completly given up on martial arts in this town and amongst it all the way around anymore.  It is n my blood and I love the arts but as for this area has to offer and me,  im becoming more of a ghost w/ it all.  Maybe one day i'll re-appear but for now im giving it up and taking my break.  All due to the lack of REALITY and REALISM that has been taken away from the training and true meaning of the Karate-Do spirit...


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## astrobiologist

In my experience, modern martial arts tournaments, at least in the USA (not sure of anywhere else), have become more about the "arts" than the "martial".  With the open tournaments being a big hit for kids and young people, so many schools pushing for competition rather than martial technique, and the XMA stuff coming around, it's pretty much diluded most american "martial" arts schools.  Don't get me wrong here.  This XMA stuff, like wushu, is fun to watch, but most of those kids would get clobbered if they actually fought a real martial artist.  I would love to see a modern day movement towards applicable martial arts practise outside of MMA.  MMA can be useful, but it still ends up getting diluded due to the sport aspect and all the money involved.  A lot of kids hear MMA and they have this weak mix of BJJ and Muay Thai in their head rather than a mix of applicable martial arts.


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## Brandon Fisher

Kilat,
Just a fyi Kyoshi Bethea is still teaching actively in Kokomo, IN.


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## Bill Mattocks

I hope I'm not jumping in here with a big mouth and no understanding of the subject, but from reading the thread, I at least think I understand.

I have been extremely fortunate.  I found my Isshinryu dojo in September of last year, it was my first real karate training.  The dojo is in a run-down storefront in Michigan, near Detroit.  There is a mat on the floor and a back room with a changing area and bathrooms.  No showers, no trophies, no shrine.  We bow to the shomen, then to the senseis, then we begin to work.  We learn the Japanese terms for what we do.

I pay $50 a month, no contract.  My sensei says he does not operate the dojo to make money, it's a hobby for him, he has a day job.  He's 8th dan, learned directly from Masters Mitchum and Long, was elected to the Isshinryu Hall of Fame, and his instructors, who draw no pay and also have day jobs, are 5th dan.  We have as many black belts as we have lower belts, and yet the average time to make black belt is about 9 years.  People who want belts tend to move on...

I am a whitebelt, and if it takes me a year to advance, so be it.  I'm learning a huge amount, starting with the upper and lower body exercises and then Sanchin kata.  I find that I am pleased with the idea of earning belts, but it's frankly not why I'm there.  Yes, I want to someday earn a blackbelt, but if it were just given to me, it wouldn't mean anything to me.  I want something I can take pride in, and I need to know I did something extraordinary to earn it.

We don't do tournaments, mostly.  I'm told that our dojo has gone to a few, but carefully selected and of course, they involve travel, so they're voluntary.

I feel like I've stepped back in time.  I am learning karate.  I am not learning how to perform in a tournament, and although I am sure that's something that many people desire, it's not a goal of mine, so I think I'm in the right place.  My sensei also demonstrates other techniques he has learned over the years that fall under the category of 'self defense' and have applicability on the street, not that I intend to be involved in a street fight anytime soon.  He always tells us when he's showing us something that is not Isshinryu, but just something he wants us to see and try.

We train, white and black belts alike, with bo-bo kumite.  Only the higher ranks train with sai kata and bo-sai kumite, so I look forward to that.  We have tonfa, but I've not yet seen them used in the dojo.  We don't have any swords that I've seen.

We kumite with pads, but we punch and kick to the center line, hard.  I've already broken a toe - that'll learn me to keep my toes pointed correctly.  I have been told by some of the other students that we used to go to some local tournaments but were basically thrown out because we punch and kick very hard and hurt people.  I don't know if that's true or not, just what I heard from another student.  I know that I train hard, I hit and kick hard, and I get hit and kicked hard.  I'm middle-aged, fat, and out of shape, but that's changing.

We are taught that karate begins and ends with politeness and respect, and sensei expects it of us.

This is the karate I hoped to learn - the mind, the body, and the spirit.  I am very pleased.

Perhaps this is the 'old school' karate that some are talking about in this thread.  It's certainly the karate that I hoped to find and I believe I have succeeded.


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