# Is that like 'let them eat cake'?



## granfire (Sep 23, 2013)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/opinion/krugman-free-to-be-hungry.html?hp&_r=2&



> The evidence is now overwhelming that spending cuts in a depressed  economy deepen the slump, yet government spending has been falling  anyway.



I am sure the economists could explain that if anybody cared to listen....




> But, say the usual suspects, the recession ended in 2009. Why hasnt  recovery brought the SNAP rolls down? The answer is, while the recession  did indeed officially end in 2009, what weve had since then is a  recovery of, by and for a small number of people at the top of the  income distribution, with none of the gains trickling down to the less  fortunate. Adjusted for inflation, the income of the top 1 percent rose 31 percent from  2009 to 2012, but the real income of the bottom 40 percent actually  fell 6 percent. Why should food stamp usage have gone down?



damn these people...they actually want to eat!

I have a suggestion:
Dear Congress, 
Stick with a budget of $4.45 a day.
Only for a week.
Then we can talk about this some more. 
How about it!


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## arnisador (Sep 23, 2013)

Krugman is dead-on as usual.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/opinion/krugman-free-to-be-hungry.html?hp&_r=2&
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The 4.45 a day is the average for all.  Many get much more then that and many get less due to earned income.  The entire food stamp program is broken.  People talk about healthcare system needing a major over haul.  That's nothing compared to the abuse that the food stamp program has.  
There is absolutely no reason someone should be able to buy half the food items that are allowed yo be bought on food stamps or here they are called independence cards which is funny by the way since they do the exact opposite of helping people become independent.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 23, 2013)

Case in point:

Meet Jason Greenslate, the poster boy for food stamp abuse. 


 Greenslate (pictured) is a 29-year-old San Diego surfer who was captured by Fox News  in August going on a "food stamp binge," buying lobster and sushi with  his EBT card. "All paid for by our wonderful tax dollars," he told the  news channel, adding: "It's free food. It's awesome."
http://money.msn.com/now/post--how-a-sushi-eating-surfer-is-killing-food-stamps

Some of the numbers on SNAP:
The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP, is now a $75 billion annual program, up from just $21.4 billion in 2003


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## arnisador (Sep 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, or SNAP, is now a $75 billion annual program, up from just $21.4 billion in 2003



It's almost like there was a job-destroying recession and it did its job.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 23, 2013)

arnisador said:


> It's almost like there was a job-destroying recession and it did its job.



Yeah how could we ever deny people sushi and lobster.

So when can we expect that number to come down


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## granfire (Sep 23, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Yeah how could we ever deny people sushi and lobster.
> 
> So when can we expect that number to come down



you know, it's better to eat that than the mac and cheese loaded with salt and cheap fat....

But it's not available to everybody....
back to mac and cheese....

But you missed the point entirely.

Aside from a few surfer bums milking the system, there are more people on there that need the assistance.

The system needs an overhaul, sure.
But there are too many people right now who don't have wiggle room. I know, it's their fault for losing their jobs, and owning houses not worth the mortgage, but still....


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## Big Don (Sep 23, 2013)

arnisador said:


> It's almost like there was a job-destroying recession and it did its job.



It's almost like the "Obama recovery" has cost more people their jobs than the "Bush recession"


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## Big Don (Sep 23, 2013)

granfire said:


> you know, it's better to eat that than the mac and cheese loaded with salt and cheap fat....





> Stephen Dubner, who co-authored the best-selling book, hosted a debate on his    blog after a reader suggested the McDouble packed a better nutritional punch    for the penny than is often assumed.
> 
> 
> The double cheeseburger provides 390 calories, 23 grams of protein &#8211; half a    daily serving &#8211; seven per cent of daily fibre, 19 grams of fat and 20 per    cent of daily calcium, all for between $1 and $2, or 65p and £1.30, The    Times reported.
> ...


Here is an idea: Work, work a job you feel is beneath you if you must, wash windows at stop lights. 
Don't be a beggar, there are a ton of begging bums in Fresno, at least hookers provide a service...


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## K-man (Sep 23, 2013)

Big Don said:


> It's almost like the "Obama recovery" has cost more people their jobs than the "Bush recession"


Why do you blame one colour of Government when the build up to the GFC happened under both? Sure it got worse under Bush and the Republicans have made sure it hasn't improved much under Obama.

Here is an article that gives a reasonable overview.
http://cpd.org.au/2011/08/ben-eltham-the-gfc-is-back-and-its-here-to-stay-2/
:asian:


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

granfire said:


> you know, it's better to eat that than the mac over sitese loaded with salt and cheap fat....


How about fruits veggies basic meese?  It shouldn't be luxury items your not paying for it the rest of America is so show some respect for our money.  I see it all the time people buy soda, crab meat, steaks, shrimp.  There is no reason that people should be spending money on that.  You want to eat steak and shrimp or lobster go get a better job.


> But it's not available to everybody....
> back to mac and cheese....
> 
> But you missed the point entirely.
> ...


Its not a few surfer bums its everywhere.  There was a rapper in the 90s that flaunted his welfare card he was a millionaire.  I find independence cards on every drug dealer i meet they will have 6 grand in one pocket cash and a welfare card in the other

Im all for helping people that need help but damn it should be for basic healthy food items.

 There is almost no over site.  That goes for the stores that accept them as well.  I know stores right not that will give people cash and make fake charges to their card.


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## granfire (Sep 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> How about fruits veggies basic meese?  It shouldn't be luxury items your not paying for it the rest of America is so show some respect for our money.  I see it all the time people buy soda, crab meat, steaks, shrimp.  There is no reason that people should be spending money on that.  You want to eat steak and shrimp or lobster go get a better job.
> 
> Its not a few surfer bums its everywhere.  There was a rapper in the 90s that flaunted his welfare card he was a millionaire.  I find independence cards on every drug dealer i meet they will have 6 grand in one pocket cash and a welfare card in the other
> 
> ...



About 60%  of the kids in our school system are on free/reduced lunches.
I am pretty sure that translates to EBT card...

And I see a lot of people buying crud with it. 
It's food alright, but nothing you'd consider healthy after reading the labels. 
Fruit?
oh hell, that's not cheap!

I am inclined to say that the majority of people are not carrier milkers.

Knew a lady, she had a job.
and three kids and a husband in jail....
She got docked 50 bucks one time, because she had a car at her disposal.....it was an old beater in her mother's name.
She lived in the boonies.
The alternative?
give up the car and  go on full assistance....logic? And that was 20 years ago.

Just talked to somebody: lady got a divorce, has downgraded everything, had to make the choice of buying groceries or paying car insurance...not n stamps...

Just because the turds float to the top does not mean the whole reservoir is full of them.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

granfire said:


> About 60%  of the kids in our school system are on free/reduced lunches.
> I am pretty sure that translates to EBT card...
> 
> And I see a lot of people buying crud with it.
> ...


I'd rather see my money go for heathy food its cheaper fruit is cheaper then sushi lobster steak crab meat


> I am inclined to say that the majority of people are not carrier milkers.
> 
> Knew a lady, she had a job.
> and three kids and a husband in jail....
> ...


Didn't say it was full but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at and over hauled


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Im all for helping people that need help but damn it should be for basic healthy food items.



As you always buy? I feel there's an aspect of 'shaming the poor' to your comments.



> There is almost no over site.  That goes for the stores that accept them as well.



Oversight is an expense--it has to eliminate a _lot_ of fraud to pay for itself. So while I agree in principle, there's a 'sweet spot' for oversight where you're actually saving money.


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## granfire (Sep 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> I'd rather see my money go for heathy food its cheaper fruit is cheaper then sushi lobster steak crab meat
> 
> Didn't say it was full but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at and over hauled




The lobster sushi guy is the exception. 
And don't kid yourself, fruit isn't cheap. 
Not healthy fruit anyhow.

The processed to death food is cheap.
and not healthy.

Yes, people should get help to buy healthy food, but the majority has no concept anymore of what is healthy, nor can they prepare a meal with real - healthy - food. 

I cringe when I see the belt loaded with name brand junkfood, then seeing the customers whipping out their WIC checks or EBT cards. 
But do thy have to forego all creature comforts, because they are not independently poor?

Also: We tend to see the holes in a news story we disagree with, I am sure the lobster guy is not eating only sushi, three meals a day. 'journalism' sadly works that way....being really suckish these days. 
I know I tend to point out that 'but the article said so' because I liked the message....knowing good and well that the same article is probably as bad as the one I picked apart just a few moments earlier.

All government systems need to be looked after on a regular basis.

But the tip of the iceberg, the floating turds not withstanding, I believe the system works for most parts and is not abused.

not to mention, government likes to give with one hand, taking away with the other:
A friend of mine hit rock bottom. it's a long, complicated story, divorce and crooked legal system involved, in any case, she applied for stamps and got them.
Once Social security set in, they cut her stamps...sometimes you can't win for losing!


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

arnisador said:


> As you always buy? I feel there's an aspect of 'shaming the poor' to your comments.


And? your living off someone else dime you should feel shame.  You shouldnt be eating anyhting you want you should be eating bare min heathy foods.  Not crabs Lobster steak sushi ect
They put signs up at all parks "dont feed the animals they will become dependent on others for food an will stop looking for food on their own"  Same applies here why should anyone work harder or try to get out of poverty when they get whatever they want handed to them.



> Oversight is an expense--it has to eliminate a _lot_ of fraud to pay for itself. So while I agree in principle, there's a 'sweet spot' for oversight where you're actually saving money.



Or change the program to not allow certain food items to be bought.  Save money that way.  Instead of buying 1 pack of steaks for $20. for one meal force them to buy chicken thats cheaper and can get 2 or 3 meals from.


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> And? your living off someone else dime you should feel shame.  You shouldnt be eating anyhting you want you should be eating bare min heathy foods.  Not crabs Lobster steak sushi ect
> They put signs up at all parks "dont feed the animals they will become dependent on others for food an will stop looking for food on their own"  Same applies here



Wow. The right-wing mindset is really something to behold.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

granfire said:


> The lobster sushi guy is the exception.
> And don't kid yourself, fruit isn't cheap.
> Not healthy fruit anyhow.


Its not as rare an exception as you think.  People are always buying crab meat and steaks, Take out food, here on the independence cards


> The processed to death food is cheap.
> and not healthy.


Healthy food that you actually have to cook yourself isnt that expensive just requires some actual "work" like cooking and cleaning.  

Yes, people should get help to buy healthy food, but the majority has no concept anymore of what is healthy, nor can they prepare a meal with real - h





> ealthy - food.


So make required nutrition classes as part of the requirements to get on the program, as well as drug and alcohol and tobacco testing.


> I cringe when I see the belt loaded with name brand junkfood, then seeing the customers whipping out their WIC checks or EBT cards.
> But do thy have to forego all creature comforts, because they are not independently poor?


Yes its not their money so yes they do need to "go without"  the program isnt for creature comforts to to provide nutrition 


> Also: We tend to see the holes in a news story we disagree with, I am sure the lobster guy is not eating only sushi, three meals a day. 'journalism' sadly works that way....being really suckish these days.
> I know I tend to point out that 'but the article said so' because I liked the message....knowing good and well that the same article is probably as bad as the one I picked apart just a few moments earlier.
> 
> All government systems need to be looked after on a regular basis.
> ...


Its not just the article I see it first hand.  I deal with the poor 90% of the time.  Ive been in these peoples homes seen in their refrigerators, Ive dug through their trash, Ive searched their homes, hell Ive seen my own sister who live off the Govt scam the system and show up at my parents house for a cook out with a bag full of NY Strips and Potato Chips and brag that she used her welfare card.


> not to mention, government likes to give with one hand, taking away with the other:
> A friend of mine hit rock bottom. it's a long, complicated story, divorce and crooked legal system involved, in any case, she applied for stamps and got them.
> Once Social security set in, they cut her stamps...sometimes you can't win for losing!


Poor thing maybe she could try getting a job like the rest of us and not blame a crooked legal system and the govt for cutting her assistance


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Wow. The right-wing mindset is really something to behold.



Not a right wing mindset, a Grown up act like an Adult mindset stop looking for handout mindset


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 24, 2013)

People should seek to be self sufficient. The purpose of services such as food stamps, welfare, etc is not to provide a lifestyle where you don't have to be responsible, but a temporary means of aid while you are in need, or have an emergency.  People who _*willingly choose to remain dependant*_ rather than seek a legal means of self sufficiency are the ones who should be shamed.  Because I am constantly misunderstood, let me be clear that I am NOT talking about those with legitimate situations that prevent them from doing so. I am referring to *those who could seek improvement, but will not* because of some feeling of entitlement.
If that's not clear enough for the people, then they need to get a clue.


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## granfire (Sep 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Its not as rare an exception as you think.  People are always buying crab meat and steaks, Take out food, here on the independence cards
> 
> Healthy food that you actually have to cook yourself isnt that expensive just requires some actual "work" like cooking and cleaning.
> 
> ...




Your experience has your view point tainted.
I am sure you are NOT dealing with the majority of recipients.
Just with the turds that float to the top.

I think you are holding the majority to a higher standard than the rest of the population.

I was not talking about the ones you describe. I am sure their  numbers has, even with procreation numbers rivaling those of rabbits, not sky rocketed as the numbers of recipients.

As for my friend, the 'poor thing':
Life is not kind nor fair to the old woman who complied by society's standards of her day, staying home, tending the kids and doing charitable work. In the end you get nothing for that, not even pittance. Forget a job. Too qualified for Walmart, too old for the rest of the market, too poor to afford pizza delivery (yeah, she did that for a while...)

She made ends meet by - this might surprise you - being self reliant and thrifty. But the tax man still wants money and not potatoes, and not everything can be grown in the back yard...



back to the point, the original one:


> Beyond that, however, you might think that ensuring adequate nutrition  for children, which is a large part of what SNAP does, actually makes it  less, not more likely that those children will be poor and need public  assistance when they grow up. And that&#8217;s what the evidence shows. The  economists Hilary Hoynes and Diane Whitmore Schanzenbach have studied  the impact of the food stamp program in the 1960s and 1970s, when it  was gradually rolled out across the country. They found that children  who received early assistance grew up, on average, to be healthier and  more productive adults than those who didn&#8217;t &#8212; and they were also, it  turns out, less likely to turn to the safety net for help.


Oh snap.

Yeah, we have since bred a couple of generations of carrier milkers in a few pockets, true.
But the majority is probably not proud of being on welfare, nor flaunting it.

But it seems that the top earners in the country even begrudge the dirt under the fingernails of the have-nots.

All while not paying but minimum taxes and exploiting every tax loophole.
You want more money in the coffers, pay up, don't take away from those who don't have a pot to piss in!
And while you think it's 'waste', it is probably money wiser spend than giving the Kochs, Ryans or Gates of this world another tax break: Unlike the rich who can stash money away in tax shelters (you know, like in not paying the government) even the scum system milers don't keep this under their pillows: They spend this money in stores in the community, be it on meat, vegetables or booze, which in turn generates tax income on many levels, and paid jobs for store clerks, etc...

THAT is a trickle own effect.
That off-shore account in the Kayman Islands?
Not so much.

Ramen might fill one up for the day, but it's hardly balanced nutrition!


PS on the cooking:
It's been a few generations since cooking was a required skill, thank you TV diners.
Peple are no loner raised on home cooked food, they have no idea what real food is supposed to taste like!
That is a huge hurdle to overcome.
Not to mention that the economically and intellectually challenged are commonly the most notorious picky eaters.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

granfire said:


> Your experience has your view point tainted.
> I am sure you are NOT dealing with the majority of recipients.
> Just with the turds that float to the top.
> 
> ...



All excuses for not holding people accountable.........................You dont want Ramen get a better job

I don't think we need to end all assistance I think we need to end all assistance for luxury items.  You shouldn't have sushi buyers float to the top of the bowl because they shouldn't even be able to swipe the card for sushi in the first place.   Few clicks of a mouse and removing luxury items is not to hard and keeps people from getting pissed over the abuse.  Thats our money the bowl floaters are spending


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## Big Don (Sep 24, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Not a right wing mindset, a Grown up act like an Adult mindset stop looking for handout mindset



BTW, if you are incapable of taking care of yourself and those you are responsible for, you damn well should be ashamed.


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2013)

Big Don said:


> BTW, if you are incapable of taking care of yourself and those you are responsible for, you damn well should be ashamed.



Incapable? Like if you're disabled?


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## Big Don (Sep 24, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Incapable? Like if you're disabled?



Incapable, as in lacking the, for lack of a better word, gumption, to get your crap together.


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## arnisador (Sep 24, 2013)

You'll be the judge of that for other people, right?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 24, 2013)

arnisador said:


> You'll be the judge of that for other people, right?



Not hard to figure out....... How many times you been convicted of a crime, failed a drug test, or where physically capable of getting a job and didn't have one and didn't bother looking?


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 25, 2013)

arnisador said:


> Wow. The right-wing mindset is really something to behold.



So not wanting the system abused is only a right-wing mindset?  And are you then left-wing and OK with abuse?



ballen0351 said:


> All excuses for not holding people accountable.........................You dont want Ramen get a better job
> 
> I don't think we need to end all assistance I think we need to end all assistance for luxury items.  You shouldn't have sushi buyers float to the top of the bowl because they shouldn't even be able to swipe the card for sushi in the first place.   Few clicks of a mouse and removing luxury items is not to hard and keeps people from getting pissed over the abuse.  Thats our money the bowl floaters are spending



Hard for me to disagree with the above.



arnisador said:


> Incapable? Like if you're disabled?



Are you simply baiting, or do your really think the majority of people on food stamps are disabled?



arnisador said:


> You'll be the judge of that for other people, right?



Do you think Big Don, or yourself, or most people are incapable of determining when people have accepted welfare as a way of life, rather than a safety net until they can get themselves out of poverty?  Could you not see signs such as never seriously looking for a job, or preferring procreating over working as reasons for believing a person prefers welfare over working?  There are other things I think you might use to judge people's intentions.  Would there be any mistakes?  Probably, but when people use proper common sense to make judgements, they should be rare, and could be handled by an appeal process.


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

Welfare is always going to be subject to abuse by a minority of recipients. If you don't like that, then spend a few dollars to find them and prosecute them. 

It is probably far more productive to pay the welfare and use the resources to recover the money from those who are running huge and profitable businesses and actively cheating the tax system.
:asian:


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## granfire (Sep 25, 2013)

But I do love the reasoning behind ballen's argument:

If you don't like being poor, don't be....
marvelous!


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## Big Don (Sep 25, 2013)

granfire said:


> But I do love the reasoning behind ballen's argument:
> 
> If you don't like being poor, don't be....
> marvelous!


It worked for Oprah... She didn't like being poor, busted her *** and is the richest black woman ever...

I just love that there was a bleeding heart liberal perfect for this example...


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

granfire said:


> But I do love the reasoning behind ballen's argument:
> 
> If you don't like being poor, don't be....
> marvelous!



Not hard to earn enough to buy your own sushi and lobster.  Its not hard to earn enough to take care of yourself without help from the Govt.  Im nothing special and Ive done it just like millions and millions of others.


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Incapable, as in lacking the, for lack of a better word, gumption, to get your crap together.



I think that attitudes like this, that look fine at face value are totally counterproductive in a place like the US where there is massive unemployment and genuine hardship.



ballen0351 said:


> Not hard to earn enough to buy your own sushi and lobster.  Its not hard to earn enough to take care of yourself without help from the Govt.  Im nothing special and Ive done it just like millions and millions of others.


Unfortunately millions of people can't get work and in many cases have a family. It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out what comes next. Desperate people will do desperate things. The US houses a massive social divide and it is getting worse. The rich are getting richer and the poor really can't get much poorer, just more of them. So you do something to help people with social security or you build more prisons. Bitching over a few people abusing food stamps really is a nonsense.
:asian:


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## granfire (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Not hard to earn enough to buy your own sushi and lobster.  Its not hard to earn enough to take care of yourself without help from the Govt.  Im nothing special and Ive done it just like millions and millions of others.



pardon me for saying this:
But you are smarter than to fall for this ONE article.

Not everybody buys lobster. I don't even think the store here carries it!

Some people are just poor.
some areas are poor

What do you tell a person who got laid off when the place of employment closed who has applied to anything under the sun but had not been called back?
Get a job?

Gosh, I know you can be a jerk some times, but I didn't think it was that far reaching! :lol:

Get a better job when bad ones are not open?

Unhook your panties from lobster boy!
He is not the average poor person! The article - and I have to say it did it's job - was meant to inflame the discussion!

I know the people you meet are about at 90% pond scum.
But the people I meet are not. They are just poor. And no, they are not milking the system. They play it honest - and get screwed......


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## granfire (Sep 25, 2013)

Big Don said:


> It worked for Oprah... She didn't like being poor, busted her *** and is the richest black woman ever...
> 
> I just love that there was a bleeding heart liberal perfect for this example...



:lfao:
and it worked for elder as well, I hear.

one in a million....tough luck when you are not that one....eat dirt and like it?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Unfortunately millions of people can't get work and in many cases have a family. It doesn't take a Rhodes Scholar to figure out what comes next. Desperate people will do desperate things. The US houses a massive social divide and it is getting worse. The rich are getting richer and the poor really can't get much poorer, just more of them. So you do something to help people with social security or you build more prisons. Bitching over a few people abusing food stamps really is a nonsense.
> :asian:


BS
Every paper in this country has a help wanted section with jobs in them.  If yours doesn't then move to a place that does.  Boils down to be an adult and do what ever you need to do to provide for your family.
And dont give me the rich getting rich and poor nonsense our poor are better off then most rich anywhere else in the world.  It isnt hard to make a comfortable life here nobody says you will be rich but you can be comfortable if you want to work for it.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

granfire said:


> pardon me for saying this:
> But you are smarter than to fall for this ONE article.
> 
> Not everybody buys lobster. I don't even think the store here carries it!


Like I said its not just one.  Ive seen the abuse of the system first hand.  Hell Ive seen my own sister abuse the system and think its funny


> Some people are just poor.
> some areas are poor


And?  Everyone cant be rich.  Im not but I work hard and make it like most people.  I dont have extra money to give away to the "poor"  to buy luxury items I dont even buy 


> What do you tell a person who got laid off when the place of employment closed who has applied to anything under the sun but had not been called back?
> Get a job?


I hand them a paper and say here is the help wanted section.  I help them look for a job.  Unlike some that cry about the poor and do nothin, I have actually help people find work.  Hell right now I volunteer at the high school at night helping people with interview skills and resume writing. Oct 11 I start a once a month program at the high school again to teach students about the same things.


> Gosh, I know you can be a jerk some times, but I didn't think it was that far reaching! :lol:


Your not a jerk your just naive about our real "poor" in this country.  I dont mean that in a bad way but unless your actually in these neighborhood and see what really goes on you have no idea.


> Get a better job when bad ones are not open?


Where do you live I bet there is a paper with a help wanted section in it right now


> Unhook your panties from lobster boy!


Why?  Its my money hes wasting why should I not be pissed?


> He is not the average poor person! The article - and I have to say it did it's job - was meant to inflame the discussion!


at least its finally being talked about


> I know the people you meet are about at 90% pond scum.
> But the people I meet are not. They are just poor. And no, they are not milking the system. They play it honest - and get screwed......


they get screwed huh ok sounds like excuses to me and you know what they say about excuses


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> BS
> Every paper in this country has a help wanted section with jobs in them.  If yours doesn't then move to a place that does.  Boils down to be an adult and do what ever you need to do to provide for your family.
> And dont give me the rich getting rich and poor nonsense our poor are better off then most rich anywhere else in the world.  It isnt hard to make a comfortable life here nobody says you will be rich but you can be comfortable if you want to work for it.


Great attitude! But, unfortunately what I have written is not BS.

Your jails are full of poor people. The US has more people in jail than most of Europe combined. Why would that be the case? I'll give you a bit of a clue. It's not drugs.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Great attitude! But, unfortunately what I have written is not BS.
> 
> Your jails are full of poor people. The US has more people in jail than most of Europe combined. Why would that be the case? I'll give you a bit of a clue. It's not drugs.


our jails are full of criminals.  You know how I know?  Because I put a bunch of them there.


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

Just for fun ...
http://m.good.is/posts/google-doesn-t-pay-taxes

Sorry, what was that BS about the rich keeping their money?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Just for fun ...
> http://m.good.is/posts/google-doesn-t-pay-taxes
> 
> Sorry, what was that BS about the rich keeping their money?



Its their money they earned it why shouldnt they keep it?

But speaking of not paying taxes:

WASHINGTON &#8212; Tax Day is a dreaded deadline for millions of Americans, but for nearly half of U.S. households, it's simply somebody else's problem.
*About 47% will pay no federal income taxes for  2009*. Either their incomes were too low, or they qualified for enough  credits, deductions and exemptions to eliminate their liability. That's  according to projections by the Tax Policy Center, a Washington research  organization.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2010-04-07-income-taxes_N.htm

Maybe they wouldnt waist my money if they had "some skin in the game"


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> our jails are full of criminals.  You know how I know?  Because I put a bunch of them there.


Ah! If that were only the case!



> *8. Social class and incarceration in the US*
> 
> 
> In the U.S. in 2004:
> ...



And, even mor confronting ...



> A central part of the mythology of the criminal justice system in the United States is that everyone is treated equally, regardless of his or her race or class. The concept that no one is above the law is a noble one. Like many good ideas, reality usually lags far behind the rhetoric.
> 
> 
> Recent years have seen a growing criticism of the criminal justice system on the flawed premise that that the system itself is racist. Proponents of this position support their argument by pointing to statistics that show that black men make up 6% of the national population but almost half of the nation's prison population. Or that at any given time one third of the U.S. population of black men is under criminal justice control, either in prison, jail, probation or parole. (See David Cole's No Equal Justice for a detailed overview of this position.) The end result: a stunning and disproportionately large percentage of black men under criminal justice control, is taken as prima facie evidence that the very system is inherently racist, at least in its outcome.
> ...



You might believe your jails are full of criminals but I think it runs a lot deeper than that.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Ah! If that were only the case!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Really?  Ive been a cop for many years Ive never seen the charge for "being poor"  in any law book.  Seen plenty of other laws but never "being poor"


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Its their money they earned it why shouldnt they keep it?


Because in every civilised society everyone is expected to pay their fair share. Using tax havens to stop you paying your share of tax might appeal to you but most people would view it as grossly unfair to all those who do pay their share of tax.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Because in every civilised society everyone is expected to pay their fair share. Using tax havens to stop you paying your share of tax might appeal to you but most people would view it as grossly unfair to all those who do pay their share of tax.



They do pay more then their fair share.  How about the bottom 47% that pay NOTHING................


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Really?  Ive been a cop for many years Ive never seen the charge for "being poor"  in any law book.  Seen plenty of other laws but never "being poor"


Mmm! I'm sure it doesn't say that. 
Just in case you didn't get a chance to read the rest of the article I cited, here's another tidbit.



> Refusing to address the role that class plays in the criminal justice system, and politics in general, makes it all but impossible to address the root causes of 2 million people behind bars in the U.S. Race and racism do play a factor, but only indirectly. To the extent that blacks and Hispanics are disproportionately poor compared to overall society, they are disproportionately represented in the prison population. Few studies have examined the correlation between race and class. One of the few that did, (cited in Elliott Currie's Crime and Punishment in America), looked at the crime, arrest and incarceration rates in a poor black neighborhood and a poor white neighborhood in Ohio. The not so surprising conclusion was that it is the poor, regardless of race, who bear the brunt of the war on crime, which sounds better than a "war on the poor." This explains why whites are in prisons and the relative absence of wealthy minorities from prisons and jails.
> 
> 
> The unspoken reality is that in America today there exists two systems of criminal justice. One for the wealthy, which includes kid-glove investigations, lackluster prosecutions, drug treatment, light sentences and easy, if any, prison time. The other, for the poor, is one of paramilitary policing, aggressive prosecution, harsh mandatory sentences and hard time. Wealth, and the political connections inherent to wealth, not race, is the determining factor in deciding which system one gets. This is most obvious when wealthy hip-hop artists and athletes, many of them black, are charged with serious crimes. Class trumps race every time, even if the wealth is new found.


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> They do pay more then their fair share.  How about the bottom 47% that pay NOTHING................


As I said, America has the biggest divide between rich and poor in the first world. What does it say about your society if 47% of the working population don't earn enough to pay tax? 

When the tax rate for a company like Google is 35%, how come they are paying 2.4%?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> As I said, America has the biggest divide between rich and poor in the first world. What does it say about your society if 47% of the working population don't earn enough to pay tax?


Because politicians are buying votes.  They can afford to pay taxes they just dont need to as long as they keep voting for the right person.  So dont complain about the top not paying "enough" when the bottom half also dont pay anything.  


> When the tax rate for a company like Google is 35%, how come they are paying 2.4%?


Because that's how the tax code is written.  That 2.4% is still more then their fair share. 
 But then again Im in favor of a flat tax for all with no deductions or credits for anyone.


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Because politicians are buying votes.  They can afford to pay taxes they just dont need to as long as they keep voting for the right person.  So dont complain about the top not paying "enough" when the bottom half also dont pay anything.
> 
> Because that's how the tax code is written.  That 2.4% is still more then their fair share.
> But then again Im in favor of a flat tax for all with no deductions or credits for anyone.


Perhaps it is deeper than that again ...



> *The U.S. Tax System Is Broken and Obsolete*
> JULY 26, 2013   BENJAMIN CLEMENT
> 
> 
> ...


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Mmm! I'm sure it doesn't say that.
> Just in case you didn't get a chance to read the rest of the article I cited, here's another tidbit.



Yep Ive heard that for years the war on the poor.  Like I said  I do this for a living and the only benefit the rich have over the poor is they can afford a better lawyer.  No way around that unless you want to force private lawyers to tak eon poor clients for free.   If your poor and you dont want to go to prison heres a tip DONT BREAK THE LAW.

I guess I ask to much of people to actually work hard for a living and don't break the law.  Yeah Im such a bad guy lol.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Perhaps it is deeper than that again ...



No argument from me Ive said forever the tax code is broken.  EVERYONE should be paying into it not just the top 53% but EVERYONE


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Yep Ive heard that for years the war on the poor.  Like I said  I do this for a living and the only benefit the rich have over the poor is they can afford a better lawyer.  No way around that unless you want to force private lawyers to tak eon poor clients for free.   If your poor and you dont want to go to prison heres a tip DONT BREAK THE LAW.
> 
> I guess I ask to much of people to actually work hard for a living and don't break the law.  Yeah Im such a bad guy lol.


Unfortunately we spend a fortune on 'legal aid' so the lawyers get rich and the poor get proper legal representation. But, it's a price we as a society are prepared to pay to ensure some sense of fairness.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

K-man said:


> Unfortunately we spend a fortune on 'legal aid' so the lawyers get rich and the poor get proper legal representation. But, it's a price we as a society are prepared to pay to ensure some sense of fairness.



Our systems pretty fair.  For petty crimes and and alot of Felony crimes people just dont go to jail until they have been arrested many times.


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## K-man (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Our systems pretty fair.  For petty crimes and and alot of Felony crimes people just dont go to jail until they have been arrested many times.


So what is the problem. I'm not having a go at the US because we certainly have our own problems with overcrowding in the prisons and calls for harsher sentences etc.

If a society doesn't help its disadvantaged it is reasonable to assume they will commit crimes to get enough money to live on or food to survive. This is borne out if we look at the prison statistics.  To support the poor costs an enormous amount of money and without fair taxes the country can't function. It really is a downward spiral and creates a whole new underclass.  The article I cited earlier also had a very interesting commentary on how the prisons are being used to control society which is a really scary thought. I mean that is what happened in Russia. In China it was a little more draconian.



> If the purpose of prisons is to be a tool of social control to dominate and oversee the poor and working classes who might with political consciousness and organization, pose a threat to the status quo, then the institution of prison is a resounding success. That it can trace its origins and growth to the rise of slavery further supports this. It also explains the absence of rich people, of all races, behind bars. It also explains the reticence of virtually all pundits, academics and even activists to discuss the dirty secret of American politics: class.
> 
> 
> Class in the U.S. is almost a forbidden topic. Raise the issue in any context, whether it is tax policy, campaign finance, government subsidies to corporations and criminal justice, and the speaker is quickly dismissed as a lunatic or worse, of fomenting "class war." Never mind that class war is already being waged on the poor and the criminal justice system is the primary weapon in this war. Class looms like a hippopotamus in a swimming pool where all the dinner guests are too polite to mention its existence.
> https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/(X(...?articleid=6070&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1


So while you are adding your share of real criminals to the prison population it seems apparent that there are a lot of minor criminals in the prisons who might do better with some other form of punishment.


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## granfire (Sep 25, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Like I said its not just one.  Ive seen the abuse of the system first hand.  Hell Ive seen my own sister abuse the system and think its funny
> 
> And?  Everyone cant be rich.  Im not but I work hard and make it like most people.  I dont have extra money to give away to the "poor"  to buy luxury items I dont even buy
> 
> ...



And all of this is summed up in one sentence:

There but by the Grace of G-d I go....


In this country all but the very rich are but one minor catastrophy away from the welfare line. 
Yes, my friend, that does include you!


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## ballen0351 (Sep 25, 2013)

And I'm telling you minor criminals need to commit a lot of crimes to end up in prison.  These are not just one or two times I'm talking 10+ or more arrests and convictions before they ever step foot in a prison


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## Big Don (Sep 25, 2013)

granfire said:


> :lfao:
> and it worked for elder as well, I hear.
> 
> one in a million....tough luck when you are not that one....eat dirt and like it?


Sure don't have much faith in people do you?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 26, 2013)

granfire said:


> And all of this is summed up in one sentence:
> 
> There but by the Grace of G-d I go....
> 
> ...



Excuses Excuses Excuses.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 27, 2013)

From K-Man



> _*The U.S. Tax System Is Broken and Obsolete*_
> _JULY 26, 2013 BENJAMIN CLEMENT_
> 
> 
> ...



That sounds like a thinly veiled attempt to justify more taxes in the manner it is usually intended by those politicians who constantly demand higher taxes rather than better use of tax dollars.

So I agree we need a better way to collect taxes, such as a flat tax rate with no exceptions.  I think that would bring in more taxes by the way.  But I think it even more important would be to find better ways to spend tax money than buying votes with pork.

EDIT:  BTW, I don't mean fixing the highway infrastructure in and of itself would be pork.  But a lot of our highway tax dollars are used not only for pork, but as a whip over the states; 'comply with this law that stinks and will be unpopular, or we will hold back your share of the highway money.'


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 27, 2013)

K-man said:


> So what is the problem. I'm not having a go at the US because we certainly have our own problems with overcrowding in the prisons and calls for harsher sentences etc.
> 
> If a society doesn't help its disadvantaged it is reasonable to assume they will commit crimes to get enough money to live on or food to survive. This is borne out if we look at the prison statistics.  To support the poor costs an enormous amount of money and without fair taxes the country can't function. It really is a downward spiral and creates a whole new underclass.  The article I cited earlier also had a very interesting commentary on how the prisons are being used to control society which is a really scary thought. I mean that is what happened in Russia. In China it was a little more draconian.
> 
> ...



Mind you, if you violate the law, especially if you are involved in the justice system and you misuse your power, I am all for seeing you outed, taken to court, and if there is sufficient evidence, convicted and sent to prison yourself.

But surely you can find a better quote than a one sided, self serving rant by a former prisoner.



> Paul Wright is the editor and co-founder of Prison Legal News, the longest publishing independent prisoner rights magazine in US history. He is the co-author of The Celling of America: An Inside Look at the US Prison Industry (Common Courage, 1998); Prison Nation: The Warehousing of America&#8217;s Poor (Routledge, 2003) and the forthcoming Prison Profiteers: Who Makes Money from Mass Imprisonment (New Press, January, 2008). His articles have appeared in over 80 publications, ranging from Counterpunch to USA Today. He is also the former National Lawyers Guild Jailhouse Lawyer national co-vice president (1995-2008). A former prisoner, *Paul was imprisoned for 17 years in Washington State until his release from prison in 2003*. During and since his incarceration, he has successfully litigated a wide variety of censorship and public records issues against prison systems around the country both pro se, as a plaintiff, on behalf of other prisoners and on behalf of Prison Legal News. Paul is a former Military Policeman and a graduate of the University of Maryland with a degree in Soviet history. Paul founded PLN in 1990 while imprisoned. He is a 2005 Petra Fellow; the July, 2006, Freedom Fighter of the Month for High Times magazine, a 2007 recipient of the James Madison Award from the Washington Coalition for Open Government and the 2008 inaugural recipient of the National Lawyers Guild&#8217;s Arthur Kinoy award.



Emphasis above mine.


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## K-man (Sep 27, 2013)

oftheherd1 said:


> Mind you, if you violate the law, especially if you are involved in the justice system and you misuse your power, I am all for seeing you outed, taken to court, and if there is sufficient evidence, convicted and sent to prison yourself.
> 
> I don't disagree but the US prison system is the real growth industry of the past 30 or 40 years. Why do you think this has occurred?
> 
> ...


Well, firstly he does quote his sources:


> Sources: New Times, New York Times, Richmond Times Dispatch, Washington Post, Dallas Morning News, National Law Journal, Washington Times, Baltimore Sun, Palm Beach Post, Charleston Gazette, San Francisco Chronicle, St.Petersburg Times, St. Louis Post Dispatch, Newsday, Los Angeles Times, Rolling Stone, FAMM-Gram, Atlanta Journal Constitution, North Coast Xpress, New Yorker, Seattle Times.


and you haven't shown any of his research to be flawed or fabricated.

Also, I did quote figures from another paper that backs up this article.
http://filipspagnoli.wordpress.com/...edom/statistics-on-prisoner-population-rates/

But, do you really believe that someone who is or has been a prisoner cannot do research? There are lots of prisoners who have completed University degrees or doctorates from jail.  Some prisoners have quite a bit of spare time. 

And of course other long serving prisoners include a chap called Nelson Mandela, a lady called Aung San Suu Kyi and a little guy called Mahatma Gandhi. I don't think terms of imprisonment impaired their credibility or intellect.

Nothing to do with this thread, but if you have a few spare minutes check out Paul Wright. He is an interesting character. One interview;
https://www.prisonlegalnews.org/1_displayNews.aspx
:asian:


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 28, 2013)

K-man said:


> Well, firstly he does quote his sources:
> 
> and you haven't shown any of his research to be flawed or fabricated.
> 
> ...



I really must apologize.  I didn't realize Paul Wright was in a league with Mahatma Gandhi, and Aung San Suu Kyi, or Nelson Mandela.  [/SARCASM]


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## WaterGal (Sep 29, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Case in point:
> 
> Meet Jason Greenslate, the poster boy for food stamp abuse.
> 
> ...



If somebody wants to waste their food stamps and eat great for 2 days and then live on ramen the rest of the month, that's their business, I guess?  I understand why it's irritating, but most people are more responsible.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> If somebody wants to waste their food stamps and eat great for 2 days and then live on ramen the rest of the month, that's their business, I guess?  I understand why it's irritating, but most people are more responsible.



Its not their business its not his money its mine.  It is my business.  When your spending others money you need to be more responsible.


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## WaterGal (Sep 29, 2013)

Bob Hubbard said:


> People should seek to be self sufficient. The purpose of services such as food stamps, welfare, etc is not to provide a lifestyle where you don't have to be responsible, but a temporary means of aid while you are in need, or have an emergency.  People who _*willingly choose to remain dependant*_ rather than seek a legal means of self sufficiency are the ones who should be shamed.  Because I am constantly misunderstood, let me be clear that I am NOT talking about those with legitimate situations that prevent them from doing so. I am referring to *those who could seek improvement, but will not* because of some feeling of entitlement.
> If that's not clear enough for the people, then they need to get a clue.



I've never been on food stamps, but I've known quite a few people that have, and almost all of them worked.  The problem is, you can't support a family working as a cashier at Walmart or a hairdresser at Supercuts or whatever.  These people work hard, often two working parents with two, three or four jobs between them, but still need food stamps to feed their kids, because their employer does not pay them well enough for them to be self-sufficient.


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## WaterGal (Sep 29, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> BS
> Every paper in this country has a help wanted section with jobs in them.



Sure.  There are twenty ads, and twenty thousand people looking at them.



> And dont give me the rich getting rich and poor nonsense our poor are better off then most rich anywhere else in the world.



Nope.  Rich people in, say, poor African countries still live in mansions and drive Ferraris and eat steaks.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> I've never been on food stamps, but I've known quite a few people that have, and almost all of them worked.  The problem is, you can't support a family working as a cashier at Walmart or a hairdresser at Supercuts or whatever.  These people work hard, often two working parents with two, three or four jobs between them, but still need food stamps to feed their kids, because their employer does not pay them well enough for them to be self-sufficient.



Not the people I have contempt for.  I have nothing but respect for the people who are hard working, busting their butts to make things work.  

Only thing I would say though is, it's not the employers job to pay them a self sufficiency wage. Employers job is to pay a fair wage for the work required.  That's often sadly not enough to get by on by itself.  Which is in part why I run 2 businesses with multiple income streams myself.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> Sure.  There are twenty ads, and twenty thousand people looking at them.


Bs there are 1000s if not 10000s of jobs just in my area.  If there are none in your area and you need one then be a responsible adult and move.  Don't just live off the tax payer and make excuses.


> Nope.  Rich people in, say, poor African countries still live in mansions and drive Ferraris and eat steaks.


Has nothing to do with our poor living better then most of the rich in the rest of the world didn't say better then all rich people but our average "poor" person living in Govt housing has heat, AC, dish washer, cell phone, cable tv , internet, ect ect ect


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## ballen0351 (Sep 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> I've never been on food stamps, but I've known quite a few people that have, and almost all of them worked.  The problem is, you can't support a family working as a cashier at Walmart or a hairdresser at Supercuts or whatever.  These people work hard, often two working parents with two, three or four jobs between them, but still need food stamps to feed their kids, because their employer does not pay them well enough for them to be self-sufficient.


How many had cell phone more then one car cable TV ?


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## Big Don (Sep 29, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> I've never been on food stamps, but I've known quite a few people that have, and almost all of them worked.  The problem is, you can't support a family working as a cashier at Walmart


Really? I worked for Walmart for 3 years, I'm a single parent, never been on any form of welfare. Even managed to go out to eat once a week. F me, I didn't know I couldn't do that...
Yeah, I paid for 3 cell phones, DirecTV, and karate class... without floating on credit cards...


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## ballen0351 (Sep 29, 2013)

Big Don said:


> Really? I worked for Walmart for 3 years, I'm a single parent, never been on any form of welfare. Even managed to go out to eat once a week. F me, I didn't know I couldn't do that...
> Yeah, I paid for 3 cell phones, DirecTV, and karate class... without floating on credit cards...


Impossible I've been told several times people can't live off working at Walmart.  That's why we must vilify Walmart force them to unionize


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## Big Don (Sep 29, 2013)

Yup, people seek jobs there so they won't be able to pay bills...


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## K-man (Sep 29, 2013)

ballen0351 said:


> Impossible I've been told several times people can't live off working at Walmart.  That's why we must vilify Walmart force them to unionize


Is it possible there is a better way?




> Walmart Pays Workers Poorly And Sinks While Costco Pays Workers Well And Sails-Proof That You Get What You Pay For
> http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickung...nd-sails-proof-that-you-get-what-you-pay-for/



A few years back we visited LA and had a meal at an Indian restaurant. I think the staff were relying on tips to make their money. The service was the worst I have seen anywhere in the world, the food was less than ordinary and when the bill came I paid the bill but refused to leave a tip. The staff were really upset and actually became abusive. Perhaps if they had been paid properly in the first place they may have had some pride in their performance.
:asian:


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## ballen0351 (Sep 29, 2013)

K-man said:


> Is it possible there is a better way?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's actually how most restaurants in the US work.  The wait staff gets a very small hourly rate like 2 to 3 bucks an hour and rely on tips to make up the difference.  That's why I'm a big tipper.  I generally will tip 30 to 40% for a regular meal if its great service I've tipped Much more.


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## K-man (Sep 30, 2013)

Well, well well! Those sneaky Brits ... 



> Welfare claimants will have to work for the dole by cooking meals for the elderly, picking up litter and cleaning up graffiti.
> Tens of thousands of long-term jobless welfare claimants in Britain will have to work for 30 hours a week doing community service or lose their unemployment benefits.
> The announcement, at Monday's Conservative Party conference, is the latest toughening of the coalition's welfare rules and a key part of the party's pitch to voters at the next general election.
> 
> ...


:asian:


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