# Why correct grammar is so important



## Balrog

A little humor for the day:

On his 74th birthday, a man got a gift certificate from his wife. The certificate paid for a visit to a medicine man living on a nearby reservation who was rumored to have a wonderful cure for erectile dysfunction!

After being persuaded, he drove to the reservation, handed his ticket to the medicine man, and wondered what he was in for. The old man handed a potion to him, and with a grip on his shoulder warned, 'This is a powerful medicine. You take only a teaspoonful, and then say '1-2-3.' When you do, you will become more manly than you have ever been in your life, and you can perform as long as you want."

The man was encouraged.

As he walked away, he turned and asked, "How do I stop the medicine from working?"

"Your partner must say '1-2-3-4,'" he responded, "but when she does, the medicine will not work again until the next full moon."

He was very eager to see if it worked so he went home, showered, shaved, took a spoonful of the medicine, and then invited his wife to join him in the bedroom.

When she came in, he took off his clothes and said, "1-2-3!" 
Immediately, he was the manliest of men.

His wife was excited and began throwing off her clothes, and then she asked, "What was the 1-2-3 for?"

And that, boys and girls, is why we should never end our sentences with a preposition, because we could end up with a dangling participle.


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## Kung Fu Wang

*Why correct grammar is so important *

When I was a waiter, a guy said, "I don't want no sugar." I put a lot of sugar into his coffee.


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## Paul_D

In a works canteen once I was asked "Don't you not want no peas?".

That was over 10 years ago and I still can't wrap my head around that one.


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## Gerry Seymour

Paul_D said:


> In a works canteen once I was asked "Don't you not want no peas?".
> 
> That was over 10 years ago and I still can't wrap my head around that one.


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## Brmty2002

I helped my uncle jack off a donkey.
I helped my Uncle Jack off a donkey.

Capital letters. What would the world be without them?


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## skribs

That's just like the difference between:  
"Our party is going to have strippers, Stalin, and Hitler"
"Our party is going to have strippers, Stalin and Hitler."

The ol' Oxford Comma completely changes that one.


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## Paul_D

Brmty2002 said:


> I helped my uncle jack off a donkey.
> I helped my Uncle Jack off a donkey.
> 
> Capital letters. What would the world be without them?


Covered in donkey semen by the sound of it


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## Steve

The Oxford comma can also create ambiguity.

"I walked with my dog, Frank, and Bob." 

Do I mean my dog named Frank, or am I talking about Frank, Bob and also a dog?

Not related to the Oxford comma, but grammar related.  I like this example I heard a long time ago:

“A woman, without her man, is nothing.”

“A woman: without her, man is nothing.”


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## Razznik

Brmty2002 said:


> I helped my uncle jack off a donkey.
> I helped my Uncle Jack off a donkey.
> 
> Capital letters. What would the world be without them?


XD


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## isshinryuronin

Steve said:


> “A woman, without her man, is nothing.”
> “A woman: without her, man is nothing.”



This thread has brightened up my morning.  Not to turn serious, but here we see how the change in tempo in speaking the same series of words gives a different outcome in meaning.  Now consider how a change in tempo executing the same series of MA techniques may affect the outcome in the effects of the attack......the difference in 1-2---3 and 1---2-3, or 1-2-3.

1-2-3 ???  Uh, oh.  I'm suddenly feeling manly!  Got to sign off now.


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## Buka

ATField said:


> For sure grammar is one of the most important parts if you tried to talk English at a good level.



Welcome to Martial Talk, ATField.


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## dvcochran

Steve said:


> The Oxford comma can also create ambiguity.
> 
> "I walked with my dog, Frank, and Bob."
> 
> Do I mean my dog named Frank, or am I talking about Frank, Bob and also a dog?
> 
> Not related to the Oxford comma, but grammar related.  I like this example I heard a long time ago:
> 
> “A woman, without her man, is nothing.”
> 
> “A woman: without her, man is nothing.”


The first sentence would imply three separate subjects since dog is not 'dog's' (no plurality) and Frank and Bob are proper nouns.

Comma placement is everything on the last two; not the use of a comma itself.


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## Steve

dvcochran said:


> The first sentence would imply three separate subjects since dog is not 'dog's' (no plurality) and Frank and Bob are proper nouns.


that's one way to read it.  Another is that the dog is named Frank.


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## dvcochran

Steve said:


> that's one way to read it.  Another is that the dog is named Frank.


Using correct grammar and plurality that would be incorrect. Had it said 'dog's' it would be correct. Else why would there be two proper names Or the comma was in the wrong place. Had it been written: "I walked with my dog Frank, and Bob." your comment would be correct. 
I do a lot of contract law. This is the kind of stuff/crap you have to watch for carefully. Hence the old saying "watch out for the shall's and may's. Can cost you big time.


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## Steve

dvcochran said:


> Using correct grammar and plurality that would be incorrect. Had it said 'dog's' it would be correct. Else why would there be two proper names Or the comma was in the wrong place. Had it been written: "I walked with my dog Frank, and Bob." your comment would be correct.
> I do a lot of contract law. This is the kind of stuff/crap you have to watch for carefully. Hence the old saying "watch out for the shall's and may's. Can cost you big time.


How someone can so confidently post something so incorrect is truly astounding.  You are embarrassing yourself.

"I walked with my dog Frank, and Bob," is not correct grammar.  "I walked with my dog, Frank, and Bob," is correct and can mean either the dog and Bob and Frank, or the dog named Frank and also Bob.  The point is that there are two reasonable ways to interpret the sentence.


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## dvcochran

Steve said:


> How someone can so confidently post something so incorrect is truly astounding.  You are embarrassing yourself.
> 
> "I walked with my dog Frank, and Bob," is not correct grammar.  "I walked with my dog, Frank, and Bob," is correct and can mean either the dog and Bob and Frank, or the dog named Frank and also Bob.  The point is that there are two reasonable ways to interpret the sentence.


Your second sentence (original format) is lazy, vague, and inaccurate English.  If you ever dealt with contract documents or technical papers you would understand this. But...


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## Steve

dvcochran said:


> Your second sentence (original format) is lazy, vague, and inaccurate English.  If you ever dealt with contract documents or technical papers you would understand this. But...


Lol. It's English. If my lawyer drafted a contract that had obvious grammatical errors in it, I'd find a new lawyer.


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## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Lol. It's English. If my lawyer drafted a contract that had obvious grammatical errors in it, I'd find a new lawyer.


I get a sense you would not be able to understand the document. 
You have argued an incorrect sentence for a large portion of this thread.


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## Steve

dvcochran said:


> I get a sense you would not be able to understand the document.
> You have argued an incorrect sentence for a large portion of this thread.


I'd show you that you're wrong, but you're so confidently ignorant you wouldn't believe any source I provide.  I'm genuinely shocked that you're choosing this hill to die on.  This reminds me of the time a car salesman told you what a great deal he gave you and you believed him.


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## dvcochran

Steve said:


> I'd show you that you're wrong, but you're so confidently ignorant you wouldn't believe any source I provide.  I'm genuinely shocked that you're choosing this hill to die on.  This reminds me of the time a car salesman told you what a great deal he gave you and you believed him.


Keep trying. That was a swing and a miss.


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## Gyakuto

“Can I get…?” = “May I have…?”


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## Kung Fu Wang

Last night on TV, I had heard the US ex-president said, "... no nothing ...".

Why did he say that?


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## Steve

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Last night on TV, I had heard the US ex-president said, "... no nothing ...".
> 
> Why did he say that?


I didn't hear it, but I have heard people say "know nothing." As in, "Bob is a know nothing fool."


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## isshinryuronin

When an educated man says, "no nothing," on a TV address, it is likely he is doing so on purpose to ingratiate himself to the general public he is trying to appeal to.  Past presidents have dyed their hair when addressing a college audience and let the gray show when addressing senior citizens.  Other makeup and mannerisms are similarly tailored for the particular target.

Many politicians are chameleons, striving to adopt the appearance and communication style of their intended audience to facilitate the audience identifying with them.  Top salespeople use similar tactics. 

People generally like communicating with others like them  -  "He's just like me!" This often results in greater trust and tendency of agreement.  Human nature.  These tactics are not good or bad in themselves.  Just like guns, or fists, it depends on how they're utilized.

Big power and money (which politics and business definitely are) is a high stakes game.  It would be naive to think the players would not use every (legal?) advantage at their disposal to win over supporters.  Their exact choice of words is not accidental.  Speechwriters are paid very well for their skill in strategic composition, aimed at influencing (I'd say manipulate, but that may be too "martial" for some) public opinion.

This post is not really about politics, but about _applied martial arts_. One difference, though - combat is more honest. At least you know what the opponent's true intentions are.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Steve said:


> I didn't hear it, but I have heard people say "know nothing." As in, "Bob is a know nothing fool."


I remember the sentence was, " ... no weapon, no nothing ...".


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## Kung Fu Wang

isshinryuronin said:


> When an educated man says, "no nothing," on a TV address, it is likely he is doing so on purpose to ingratiate himself to the general public he is trying to appeal to.


Do you think that the majority of US population like to use double negative?


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## Steve

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I remember the sentence was, " ... no weapon, no nothing ...".


Ah then I agree that it was someone trying to sound folksy.


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## isshinryuronin

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think that the majority of US population like to use double negative?


No.  I should have included the word "general public segment" to illustrate a more specific target group.


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## Kung Fu Wang

When someone said, "You are bad man (or you are bad, man, not sure which one)", what does he mean?

I have learned 2 different ways to say "En, En". Have not heard anybody use it for a long time. Do anybody know why?


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think that the majority of US population like to use double negative?


The "no nothing" idiom is pretty widely used.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Ah then I agree that it was someone trying to sound folksy.
> 
> View attachment 27011


I don't think it approaches the definition of the appeal to common folk fallacy, though.


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have learned 2 different ways to say "En, En". Have not heard anybody use it for a long time. Do anybody know why?


I don't even konw what that refers to.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I don't think it approaches the definition of the appeal to common folk fallacy, though.


Depends on whether it is affected or not, doesn't it?

In politics, it's definitely a thing.  For example, John Kennedy from Louisiana graduated magna cum laude from Vanderbilt University and graduated with honors from Oxford.  You wouldn't know it by listening to him speak, which is very intentional.  

Now, to be fair, some politicians aren't faking it... in which case it would not be a fallacy.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> The "no nothing" idiom is pretty widely used.


Possibly in the South.  I don't think it's super common around here.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Depends on whether it is affected or not, doesn't it?
> 
> In politics, it's definitely a thing.  For example, John Kennedy from Louisiana graduated magna cum laude from Vanderbilt University and graduated with honors from Oxford.  You wouldn't know it by listening to him speak, which is very intentional.
> 
> Now, to be fair, some politicians aren't faking it... in which case it would not be a fallacy.


I think for it to be that specific logical fallacy, it has to include that claim (even implicitly) that all common folk ______. Otherwise, it's just an attempt to be more relatable. It could be argued that there's an implicit claim that "I understand you because I'm just folks", but I'm not sure that meets the definition (as I understand it) for that logical fallacy.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Possibly in the South.  I don't think it's super common around here.


I've heard it all over the country, though it is definitely more common in the South, where it's also lacking the ending "g".


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I've heard it all over the country, though it is definitely more common in the South, where it's also lacking the ending "g".


I live in the part of King County where pick up trucks are lifted and have testicles hanging from the trailer hitch.  If there's anywhere in the area where they would say "no nothin'" it would be here.  I believe you if you say you've heard it in Washington State.   We say some weird stuff around here, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone around here say that.  I'll listen for it now.  

I have heard people being called "know nothings", though.  As in, "So-and-so at the store was a know-nothing jackwagon."


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I live in the part of King County where pick up trucks are lifted and have testicles hanging from the trailer hitch.  If there's anywhere in the area where they would say "no nothin'" it would be here.  I believe you if you say you've heard it in Washington State.   We say some weird stuff around here, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone around here say that.  I'll listen for it now.
> 
> I have heard people being called "know nothings", though.  As in, "So-and-so at the store was a know-nothing jackwagon."


It's entirely possible I've never heard it in Washington the Greater (the appropriate honorific for the state, IMO). And it probably is largely a cultural bleed from the South over the last 20-30 years. I only meant my comment to clarify that I've heard it in many areas of the US. Probably the Midwest is second to the South in usage, if I go entirely based on my very crappy memory.


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## Steve

We all support the oxford comma.  But what about the Walken Comma:


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> I don't even know what that refers to.


It can be either en-en, or un-un. I believe it means "no".


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It can be either en-en, or un-un. I believe it means "no".


Ah, I think you're referring to the sound I've usually seen spelled "uh-uh". It's sometimes also said with a more nasal "a" sound, which could explain your use of the "n".


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Ah, I think you're referring to the sound I've usually seen spelled "uh-uh". It's sometimes also said with a more nasal "a" sound, which could explain your use of the "n".


Kudos to you.  I would never have gotten there from that.





__





						uh-uh - Wiktionary
					






					en.wiktionary.org


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## Kung Fu Wang

gpseymour said:


> The "no nothing" idiom is pretty widely used.


What do you think the elementary school English teacher may think about this usage?

One math class that I took in school taught me that double negative = positive.

-(-5) = 5


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## Gerry Seymour

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What do you think the elementary school English teacher may think about this usage?
> 
> One math class that I took in school taught me that double negative = positive.
> 
> -(-5) = 5


That's the general concept in English syntax, as well. But idiom rarely obeys syntactical rules.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> That's the general concept in English syntax, as well. But idiom rarely obeys syntactical rules.



Yeah, and triple negative equals a positive, and quad negatives net negative.  I smile thinking about a Brit's reaction to a sentence like, "You couldn't possibly NOT want to avoid undoing the lack of preparation."


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Yeah, and triple negative equals a positive, and quad negatives net negative.  I smile thinking about a Brit's reaction to a sentence like, "You couldn't possibly NOT want to avoid undoing the lack of preparation."


I wish actual memos were still a thing. That sentence begs to be in one, circulated among department heads.


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## Dirty Dog

Steve said:


> Yeah, and triple negative equals a positive, and quad negatives net negative.  I smile thinking about a Brit's reaction to a sentence like, "You couldn't possibly NOT want to avoid undoing the lack of preparation."


I read that, and now my eye won't stop twitching...


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I wish actual memos were still a thing. That sentence begs to be in one, circulated among department heads.


I can't be sure, but I think that sentence endorses a lack of preparation.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I can't be sure, but I think that sentence endorses a lack of preparation.


Both halves of that sentence are why it should be in a memo. Memos were rarely actually useful.


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## donald1




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## Steve

aloha20 said:


> I was born in a country in Europe, where we learned English at school. However, I always knew that I would make my university years in the US. TBH, the English we learn in school is quite different from here. People sometimes do not respect the grammar, which sometimes is pretty confusing. Plus, I needed a bit of retouch. I used a great app, where for example, you inserted the word erudite, and then several sentences appeared with their meaning. For me, it was very easy to understand the unknown terms.


Erudite isn't a word one hears often.  If you do use it, you probably are it.   

Another good word is luddite, which refers to people who are anti-technology...  precursors to the obsurantists today who are anti-science and peddling misinformation to the ignorant about the vaccines and covid-19.  Personally, I think the anti-vaxxers are our modern version of luddites, though the word isn't quite right.

Can anyone think of a more appropriate term than luddite?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> Erudite isn't a word one hears often.  If you do use it, you probably are it.


I find that most of the time, people who will use erudite in regular conversation are rather grandiloquent.


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## Steve

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I find that most of the time, people who will use erudite in regular conversation are rather grandiloquent.


And loquacious.


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