# Sparring in "Traditional" styles



## MBuzzy (Dec 8, 2007)

I'm curious how those of you in a "traditional" style limit or do not limit your techniques?  Basically what I'm asking is are you a believer is "use what works" or "use what your style teaches?"

By traditional, I mean styles such as the US Soo Bahk Do Federation that have a very set curriculum and prefer that you stay within that curriculum even in sparring.  Now, please note that I am not talking about fighting on the street or in a self defense encounter.  I'm looking solely for the Dojang setting sparring, or even tournament.  

For example, in Soo Bahk Do tournaments, if the technique is not complete or is done with bad technique, the judges have the option of not awarding points.  In the Dojang setting, during sparring, we are constantly coaching the lower belts to use proper technique.

So in your opinion, does it matter or do you just do what works?


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 8, 2007)

Well really...if it doesn't work, why would it be in the curriculum? Of course we emphasize proper technique in sparring, because that's what works.


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## MBuzzy (Dec 8, 2007)

I'm talking more about techniques that are outside of your curriculum.  Obviously the ones that we have work, you're completely right, otherwise, we wouldn't do them.  

But take my school for example, we practice round house kicks with the ball of the foot.  Well, a good Muay Thai style shin roundhouse kick works VERY well.  Even a solid instep roundhouse to the thigh can be effective, but in this setting, we try to stay away from it.

Or take a boxing right hook - it obviously works, boxers all over the world do it, but, at least in my school, you don't see too many boxing style hooks being thrown.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 9, 2007)

Yeah, we typically try to keep that stuff out of sparring, because if we wanted to do boxing we'd go to a boxing ring, and if we wanted to do Muay Thai, we'd just go down the street to the Muay Thai school...

But honestly, hooking punches only work if you have gloves on anyway, and they're too easily counterable.


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2007)

I beleive you fight in the Dojaang the way the rules say, in the street encounters you must use what will work for you.

At any tournament or dojaang they have a set of rules that has to be followed in order to keep control of the sparring that is taking place. I.E. this has to be done to control the events.


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## MBuzzy (Dec 9, 2007)

So does that mean that the basics that you learn during class are everything that you need?  No additional techniques or differences from what you do during basics are used?


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> So does that mean that the basics that you learn during class are everything that you need? No additional techniques or differences from what you do during basics are used?


 

Please we must use whatever means are necesarry in the streets, I mean if need be pick up a garbage can and hit the person or a stick or even a tire iron. It would all depend on what you need as far as gettint yourself out of danger.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> But honestly, hooking punches only work if you have gloves on anyway, and they're too easily counterable.


 
*Blinks*  Ok, I don't do a KMA, but could someone explain to me how a hook (I mean a real hook, not a piss poor thrown from long range hook) is "too easily counterable."  

Thanks,

Lamont


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Please we must use whatever means are necesarry in the streets, I mean if need be pick up a garbage can and hit the person or a stick or even a tire iron. It would all depend on what you need as far as gettint yourself out of danger.


 
But if you don't train the technique, how are you going to use "whatever means are necessary?"  More precisely, how are you going to do it well?  

Lamont


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## MBuzzy (Dec 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> I beleive you fight in the Dojaang the way the rules say, in the street encounters you must use what will work for you.
> 
> At any tournament or dojaang they have a set of rules that has to be followed in order to keep control of the sparring that is taking place. I.E. this has to be done to control the events.


 
Very true, but usually those rules deal with things like where you can hit, what counts for points and what does not.  A lot of safety rules, but there are usually not rules that say "You can only use the follow list of techniques."  In SBD for example, you can use whatever you want, but if it isn't a part of the standard repertoire, it may not get you points if you get it through.



terryl965 said:


> Please we must use whatever means are necesarry in the streets, I mean if need be pick up a garbage can and hit the person or a stick or even a tire iron. It would all depend on what you need as far as gettint yourself out of danger.


 
Completely true, it goes without saying that in a real fight, you use whatever you need to.  Kicks to the groin, garbage can lids, whatever.  

The question is....in a sparring situation, do you use the same things that you learn during basics?  Are they done exactly the same?  Or in your Dojang sparring, do you adapt your techniques to the fight, using things that you may or may not have learned in your basic classes.  

I ask mainly because I tend to get the comment during sparring classes, "That's new" or "I've never seen that before."  When I trained in Korea, my teacher taught things from the different styles he had learned in addition to the standard SBD techniques.  Basically just added a bunch of different techniques into the repertoire.  Back here in the US, a lot of the students have been training in this one style and haven't seen any techniques that are outside of the standard basics.  Everyone adapts things slightly for a fight, but to what degree?


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## terryl965 (Dec 9, 2007)

Blindside said:


> But if you don't train the technique, how are you going to use "whatever means are necessary?" More precisely, how are you going to do it well?
> 
> Lamont


 

Lamont to answer your question two fold OK.

1st When sparring in the school or at tournaments the rules of engagement must be followed. When you are in a confitation the rules are engagement are as followed. Each get practice time and each must be practiced to the fullest to completely understand how you will react to these stituations.

We train to be ready whether it is for competition or for a street altication.


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## Omar B (Dec 9, 2007)

I think within the school you should have enough respect for your instructor and your fellow students to spar in the style of the school.  If I know TKD and I'm sparring with someone who knows TKD but also knows Muay Thai and he's using it.  Not only is he wailing on me but he's also not practicing his TKD to it's fullest.  He's basically saying, I'm here in this school but I don't respect the curriculum enough to adhere to it.

It's a disservice to your form since sparring is applying your class work in an environment that resembles a fight.  It's purpose is to prepare you to use your TKD (or whatever traditional style) to it's fullest, not to pick and choose.  Also, younger students watching you might have their form corrupted, everyone's seen kids watching the adults spar and they are on the side trying stuff way above their belt grade because they see an adult do it.


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Lamont to answer your question two fold OK.
> 
> 1st When sparring in the school or at tournaments the rules of engagement must be followed. When you are in a confitation the rules are engagement are as followed. Each get practice time and each must be practiced to the fullest to completely understand how you will react to these stituations.


 
I guess the question is why are the "rules of engagement" set up the way they are (whatever they are.)  In competition it completely makes sense, in a classroom, not so much.  As an example, our school allows groin kicks, TKDers and boxers who come in have a heck of a time adjusting.  We don't play with leg kicks all that often, so when Muay Thai guys come in, it usually takes a couple hits to remind yourself that the other guys isn't "playing by the rules."  Our rules pretty much only apply to our beginners, our more advanced students are pretty much allowed to do whatever they care to try, with some fairly standard safety caveats.  It is also the reason why our sparring is an "open" class.  We want the exposure to other styles.

Lamont


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2007)

Omar B said:


> I think within the school you should have enough respect for your instructor and your fellow students to spar in the style of the school. If I know TKD and I'm sparring with someone who knows TKD but also knows Muay Thai and he's using it. Not only is he wailing on me but he's also not practicing his TKD to it's fullest. He's basically saying, I'm here in this school but I don't respect the curriculum enough to adhere to it.


 
Maybe you should approach it as "he is giving me the opportunity to practice defending against Muay Thai with my TKD" rather than "it is disrespectful."  Particularly if he is "wailing" on you, maybe figuring out how he is beating you might be beneficial, rather than asking him to eliminate the technique that is giving you issues.

Lamont


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## MBuzzy (Dec 9, 2007)

Omar B said:


> I think within the school you should have enough respect for your instructor and your fellow students to spar in the style of the school. If I know TKD and I'm sparring with someone who knows TKD but also knows Muay Thai and he's using it. Not only is he wailing on me but he's also not practicing his TKD to it's fullest. He's basically saying, I'm here in this school but I don't respect the curriculum enough to adhere to it.
> 
> It's a disservice to your form since sparring is applying your class work in an environment that resembles a fight. It's purpose is to prepare you to use your TKD (or whatever traditional style) to it's fullest, not to pick and choose. Also, younger students watching you might have their form corrupted, everyone's seen kids watching the adults spar and they are on the side trying stuff way above their belt grade because they see an adult do it.


 
So if you spar strictly according to the things taught in class, how does it prepare you for another fight though?  If you encounter these techniques, even in a competition setting, isn't it better to be ready for them and be prepared?

Personally, I'm at conflict with this one.  I try to stick to the SBD techniques as much as possible during sparring, but there are some situations where I find other techniques useful.  It usually catches other people by surprise....but at the same time, I would rather be exposed to those other styles and techniques so that I have an idea how to counter them if I ever do see them in another situation.


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## Omar B (Dec 9, 2007)

Look, I'm comming at it from the insturctor's point of view.  It's not like I look down my nose at cross training.  Heck, I have black belts in two pretty different style.  Just that, if I wanna work on my sparring against MT I'll work out with friend's outside of the class.  The way I see it is when I'm in Karate I work on that, when I'm in Judo, that's what I work on and so on.  I don't go into play Judo and open up by kicking the guy in the face.  Fact is I firmly think class is for working on form and technique in your style.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 9, 2007)

Blindside said:


> *Blinks*  Ok, I don't do a KMA, but could someone explain to me how a hook (I mean a real hook, not a piss poor thrown from long range hook) is "too easily counterable."
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Lamont



(1) First, even if it's a really fast hook, it's not going to be as fast as a straight punch. Physics. I have a lot easier time seeing something coming around at me than something popping right up at me, so long as I'm not the idiot standing in one place and keeping the fight in so close I can't see my opponent's hands moving. 

(2) Besides that, round punches and haymakers (if there's a distinction) don't use the full force possible with a straight punch. First reason: you're using your shoulder muscles for the primary force, not putting your body weight behind it and using your waist twist. Second reason: you're punching with the wrong part of your fist. Proper extension with a straight punch has you connecting with only the first two knuckles of the hand, the strongest ones and the ones most in line with the rest of the arm. If you're coming around, chances are you're connecting with the smaller knuckles first. Unless you're wearing gloves, that's a really bad idea. 

And to address the common question further, I believe that if you're training in a martial art, you stay with the martial art. You just need to keep in mind that you're training more than just the specific techniques you're using in class, if you're doing it correctly. You need to focus on internalizing principles. To use an example posited above, there is a best way and a not-so-best way to swing a trash can at someone. I'm willing to bet that this doesn't have anything to do with what martial art you take, because these kinds of principles are fairly well universal. So practice your martial art, not a combination of everything together. Sorry, Bruce Lee, we're not all you. :-þ


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## Blindside (Dec 9, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> (1) First, even if it's a really fast hook, it's not going to be as fast as a straight punch. Physics. I have a lot easier time seeing something coming around at me than something popping right up at me, so long as I'm not the idiot standing in one place and keeping the fight in so close I can't see my opponent's hands moving.


 
Let me guess, you don't fight at close range very often.  How often does someone push you up against the dojang wall or into the corner and started hammering you?  What techniques do you use at closer than punching range?

You are correct, the hook is a close range technique, but the difference been a straight punch range and hook punch range is about 6 inches, good luck maintaining that distance against a decent opponent.



> 2) Besides that, round punches and haymakers (if there's a distinction) don't use the full force possible with a straight punch. First reason: you're using your shoulder muscles for the primary force, not putting your body weight behind it and using your waist twist. Second reason: you're punching with the wrong part of your fist. Proper extension with a straight punch has you connecting with only the first two knuckles of the hand, the strongest ones and the ones most in line with the rest of the arm. If you're coming around, chances are you're connecting with the smaller knuckles first. Unless you're wearing gloves, that's a really bad idea.


 
A hook doesn't primarily use the shoulder, that would be arm punching and that would be a bad hook.  It, just like the straight punch, generates power from the legs, hips, abs, and chest.  If you train bare handed hooks, you generally train with a vertical fist not horizontal for exactly the reason you give.  And, given that boxers can knock people out with all of 16 inches of travel on a hook through 16 oz. gloves, I'm going to say that there is plenty of power to spare.

Lamont


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## JT_the_Ninja (Dec 9, 2007)

(1) Assuming anyone can manage to get close enough to pin me to the wall, I've been shown several methods for reversing the situation, none of which are very pleasant. Never fight in a straight line.

(2) Even so, your punch will be faster and more powerful if it's straight on as opposed to coming around. Short punches should not be overrated. And knockouts in gloves happen when you hit the right target, not _only_ because the punch is powerful enough. Granted, there are exceptions, but assuming an opponent manages to get that close to me, I'm not going to trade punches. I'm not a boxer. I'm going to use a throw or joint lock first opportunity I get, if not just slip around to the other side and counter.


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