# Thrusting Prongs



## Maltair

I've seen this tech from 4 diff instructors and have seen it done 4 diff ways. Wanted to find out what the consenses is here?


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## michaeledward

I have it written up as :

Defense against a 'Front Bear Hug - Arms Pinned'

1. Step back with your right foot (to 6 O'Clock) into a  left modified forward bow, having only your right foot move back and not the upper body (leaning forward).
Simultaneously, thrust both of your thumbs up and to opponents groin.

2. Strike opponent's groing with your right knee as your left hand circles over and on top of your opponent's right arm (forming the shape of the crane) and pins (with the assistance of your anchored left elbow) your opponent's right are to you, while cocking your right hand to your right hip.

3. Deliver a right inward elbow to opponent's face (or ribs depending on the size of your opponent).


However, when we run the technique, it seems I am craning my left arm before the knee, rather than at the same time.

Mike


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## Michael Billings

Try thinking of the foot stepping back as a very small step, just to give a little clearance, but primarily to rebound off the floor into the knee.  Try less of a "settle" into the shallow forward bow, but a bounce off the floor.  The timing of the suppressing check (crane) and knee should then occur almost simultaneously.  

Note: there is a principle called stabilized assistance, which means that when you utilize the suppressing check, you are loading some of your weight on him and assisting your own balance.  It also ensures the target is less likely to be moved, and you are less likely to get a knee to the groin since you do "straddle the paddle" in this technique.

I have seen it other ways, but this is the one I choose to teach.

-Michael

Edited to clarify (and correct a word)


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## KenpoMatt

> .
> 
> _from michaeledward:_
> 
> 1. Step back with your right foot (to 6 O'Clock) into a left modified forward bow, having only your right foot move back and not the upper body (leaning forward).
> Simultaneously, thrust both of your thumbs up and to opponents groin.
> 
> 2. Strike opponent's groing with your right knee as your left hand circles over and on top of your opponent's right arm (forming the shape of the crane) and pins (with the assistance of your anchored left elbow) your opponent's right are to you, while cocking your right hand to your right hip.
> 
> 3. Deliver a right inward elbow to opponent's face (or ribs depending on the size of your opponent).



This is basically how my school teaches it. We defnitely use the right leg as a strong brace to keep the attacker from toppling you  over backwards. And, we wrap (crane) the left arm before firing the knee.


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## MisterMike

Same here. Grab first.

My prongs go to the inner hip joint, at the top inside of the thighs to create distance/travel for the knee strike, which goes to the groin.

I also chamber the fist higher than the hip so that you get a "pointier" back elbow strike and better line of sight for the face shot.

I also add in a buckle to the inside of the right knee.


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## satans.barber

Thrusting Prongs

Front bear hug, arms pinned 

1. With feet together, step back into a left forwards stance as you strike and push the pressure points at the sides of the opponent's groin,

2. Hook your left arm over the opponent's right arm and bear down on their elbow, keeping your own elbow down to protect your ribs, and maintain this lock for the rest of the technique,

3. Right outwards handsword to the side of the neck,

4. Hold the neck and pull the opponent into a right forward knee to the stomach,

5. Without planting down, execute a side blade kick to the inside of the opponent's left knee and scrape down their leg to the floor, planting into a short right fighting stance,

6. Finish with a right hooking elbow to the face.


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## M F

> 1. With feet together, step back into a left forwards stance as you strike and push the pressure points at the sides of the opponent's groin,
> 2. Hook your left arm over the opponent's right arm and bear down on their elbow, keeping your own elbow down to protect your ribs, and maintain this lock for the rest of the technique,
> 3. Right outwards handsword to the side of the neck,



I m not seeing where you get your hands free to execute number three.  Please expand on this part of the tech.  Thanks.


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## michaeledward

> I m not seeing where you get your hands free to execute number three. Please expand on this part of the tech. Thanks.



If somebody sticks their thumbs into your groin ... or the pressure point at the inside top of the thigh (just to the side of the male genitalia) ... you are going to let go ... Promise !!!!

Really!!!

This technique is very interesting for that reason alone. When somebody runs it on me ... I jump up about three feet .... Woo!!! .. kinda like Super Mario


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## rmcrobertson

Go for the bladder. To quote my first teacher, Toni Wasserberger, who I believe was quoting Mr. Parker, "If they pee all over themselves, they're likely to get embarassed and lose interest in fighting."


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## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by michaeledward _
> *If somebody sticks their thumbs into your groin ... or the pressure point at the inside top of the thigh (just to the side of the male genitalia) ... you are going to let go ... Promise !!!!
> 
> Really!!!
> 
> This technique is very interesting for that reason alone. When somebody runs it on me ... I jump up about three feet .... Woo!!! .. kinda like Super Mario *



Yes, this is the idea. If someone hits/pushes/touches your groin it's a natural reaction to withdraw (well, in a fight sense anyway  ), as soon as they do you lock them down with the arm pin and let the rest of the strikes fly,

Ian.


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## Shiatsu

I would like to see it done a t full speed, with a non compliant attacker before I believe that two thumb prongs will make the attacker retreat.


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## Maltair

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *I would like to see it done a t full speed, with a non compliant attacker before I believe that two thumb prongs will make the attacker retreat. *



I'm with Shiatsu on this one. 
In our school, we are taught to use our prongs (aka chicken beaks-fingers and thumbs togeather) to the kidney, or to palm strike the kidneys. My Sifu even showed me how you can grab the skin over the kidneys and twist, boy that hurts. 

The shot to the groin or the pressure point is a hard target to hit effectivly when in close quarters like that.


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## rmcrobertson

It's a misunderstanding to think that this techniqque is meant to maake anybody retreat. In the first place, they're not charging--not even ideally, because why in the heck would you stand there right in front of an attacker with your little thumbs sticking out?

In the second, if you keep your elbows in as you step back, and especially if you let the attacker squush in on your arms (which is what's going on anyway, since the tech is used against a bear hug, arms pinned in and down at your sides), it's going to be hard to miss.


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## Thesemindz

We practice this technique with double thumb strikes to the groin, which hurts like the dickens. The pain is nice, but it's not really what I focus on in the first move of this technique.  By dropping back into a forward bow and bracing my fists against my opponent's groin, which causes him to bend forward at the hips, I create a wedge which breaks his hold on me. I have worked this against bigger stronger opponents and seen it work for others. It is the combination of a strong stance, a straight back, and folding my opponent over his hip girdle with the thumb strikes which creates the wedge needed to free yourself. From there its just blunt trauma. Yay!

-Rob


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## Shiatsu

Like I said it is one of the techniques that I would like to see done at full speed against a opponent that is non compliant.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Like I said it is one of the techniques that I would like to see done at full speed against a opponent that is non compliant. *



I don't have a problem with performing thrusting prongs. The thumb thrust may not drive them back totally but the thrusting knee strike sure will.:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Maltair _
> *I've seen this tech from 4 diff instructors and have seen it done 4 diff ways. Wanted to find out what the consenses is here? *



Without a definate number of kenpoists on here you'll probably see each technique done slightly different by each kenpoist here.


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## MisterMike

Does anyone know what situations this attack would actually happen?

I know there are a few, but how realistic do you think it is to begin with?


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I know there are a few, but how realistic do you think it is to begin with? *



My personal opinion about a frong bear hug arms pinned may be different than others view points. When I wrestled in school we used the front bear hug to take a person down by clasping our hands behind the small of the back while pushing our head against the chest region. This creates a serious amount of pain and puts the person back on their heels immediately if done properly. When you clasp your hands in the small of the back you "must" pull upward to make the hips come toward you and force the upper torso backward. This has been tested by me on the mats and I've had no one stay standing while I've done this in this particular manner.

However, your common street thug I seriously doubt have this kind of info.


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## Shiatsu

Unless they are a former wrestler.:shrug:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Unless they are a former wrestler.:shrug: *



Re-read my last sentence dude.


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## Shiatsu

I did, what I am saying is that if someone already has you in this position, they aren't standing still, and there is not much you can do to stop it:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Unless they are a former wrestler.:shrug: *



This post just got my "wheels" turning. One of the things you are working on here during this tech. is creating distance, establishing your base, bracing angle, checking the opponents height zone, etc. many etc. at that. If you don't like the thumb thrust then use palm heel strikes to the sides of the pelvis bone to drive the hips back. We gain serious momentum while employing the thrusting knee strike and being followed by the inward elbow what's not to like about this tech? Besides the thumb or palm heel thrust you break the hold with the opposing forces movement of your arms. "Anchoring" your opponents body down to stay in line with the knee and elbow strike. 

I don't know if that helped you out any but I'd like to see Mr. Conatser's view point or Doc's view on this technique as well. 

Now I'm going to go eat my dinner.:shrug:


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Maltair _
> *I'm with Shiatsu on this one.
> In our school, we are taught to use our prongs (aka chicken beaks-fingers and thumbs togeather) to the kidney, or to palm strike the kidneys. My Sifu even showed me how you can grab the skin over the kidneys and twist, boy that hurts.
> 
> The shot to the groin or the pressure point is a hard target to hit effectivly when in close quarters like that. *



Your thumbs should be braced (pressed to the inside of your fists with very little protrusion) for backup mass.  The tek is thrusting prongs not blinding sacrifice.   Your thumb strikes begin structural breakdown and cancel height and depth upon execution of the thumb strikes.   Keep your chin tucked to avoid the unintentional head butt.    

The object of the first movement (opposising forces with the prong strike and forward bow) is to close him down at the hinge.   Now his balance point has been moved and so has his weight distribution.  He has lost control and his body is to be used against him for the remainder of the tek.   It is a tek designed in the fourth range so there are a lot of constituents of contact manipulation that when used in accordance with the design of the tek make it 1) easy and 2) smooth.  

Thrusting Prongs is an exercise in leverage and becoming acquanted with those naunces- in fact that is what make orange a difficult belt level.  There are many standup grappling counters throughout the orange material.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *I did, what I am saying is that if someone already has you in this position, they aren't standing still, and there is not much you can do to stop it:asian: *



Prefix with a head butt. 

How comfortable are you standing up with someone in this position? Maybe you should grab back bounce them off of you left or right knee before doing this tech. 

Also remember too that you are in an over/under situation here with the hand positioning. I know what I might do if "I" were in this situation but you need to come up with some spontaneous situation that will work for you.

Since you have nothing in your profile I have no idea how much experience you have so all I can offer is what I know and have tested that works for me. 

Best of Luck.:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *If someone already has you in this position, they aren't standing still, and there is not much you can do to stop it:asian:
> *



Ok, if that is the case, what are you looking for?


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## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Like I said it is one of the techniques that I would like to see done at full speed against a opponent that is non compliant. *



I'll be happy to show you how it works if you come round my house  

Ian.


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## rmcrobertson

OK, got that. Now, could you tell me what the opening of this techniques has to do with making anyone "retreat?"


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *OK, got that. Now, could you tell me what the opening of this techniques has to do with making anyone "retreat?" *


Are you talking about on the defense?


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _*
> I would like to see it done at full speed, with a non compliant attacker before I believe that two thumb prongs will make the attacker retreat. *



When discussing technique variations..... we must discuss one version at a time.  No matter which one we choose to start with ... we need to establish exactly what the attack is for and then discuss if the way we are describing it will work or not.  Then, do the same with the next etc., so as to compare differences and see if there is something there of benefit for all.

Shiatsu, as I read the 3 or 4 different variations that have been outlined, they all seem to have merit, however, you ask to see it done at full speed with a "non compliant attacker".  

This request will quite possibly change any of the discussed techniques into a "WHAT IF" scenario and thus have quite different results or versions.  

Not that this is bad or anything but we need to compare apples to apples, otherwise confusion and misunderstandings could result, not to mention you are changing the circumstances for probably most of the "ideal" versions of these techniques.

Also, I didn't see where any had referred to a retreat.... or did I miss it somewhere?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> Does anyone know what situations this attack would actually happen, I know there are a few, but how realistic do you think it is to begin with?
> *



LOL, you ask a question then immediately answer your own question.?~!  Whats up with that  I think it is quite realisitc to begin with.

You mean to tell me that it is not realistic to think that someone "might possibly" grab you in a front bearhug (arms free or pinned)?  C'mon, you are just testing us with that question aren't you.....:rofl:

Consider this version.........
THRUSTING PRONGS (Front bear hug -- arms pinned) 

1.  Step back with your right foot toward 6 o'clock into a left forward bow (facing 12 o'clock). (You will probably modify it because of the pressure of the bear hug). Have only your right foot move back and not the upper body. Simultaneously thrust both of your thumbs (keeping thumbs together) up and to your opponent's groin. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist as well as move his feet back and away from you.)

2.  Now strike your opponent's groin with your right knee as your left hand circles over and on top of (clockwise) your opponent's right arm (forming the shape of a crane), and pins (with the assistance of your anchored left elbow) your opponent's right arm to you. Simultaneously with the above two actions **** your right hand to your right hip as a clearing check of your opponent's left arm, as well as in preparation for the next strike. (Your knee strike should magnify the damage to your opponent's groin.)

3.  With your right knee in his groin, immediately deliver a right knife-edge kick to the inside of your opponent's left shin. (This action should force your opponent's left leg outward.)

4.  Scrape your opponent's shin with your right foot, and convert the scrape into a right stomp to your opponent's left instep. This is done while simultaneously delivering a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of your opponent's face or ribs (depending on the size of your opponent). (This strike should drive your opponent's head up and away from you.)

5.  Right front crossover, and cover out toward 
    7:30.

NOTES ON: THRUSTING PRONGS

1.  NAME: "Prongs" symbolically refer to thumbs. The name of this technique originates from the action of your two thumbs (prongs) thrusting into your opponent's groin on the first move. Thus this technique was named Thrusting Prongs.

2.  THEME: The theme of this technique lies in the initial approach of countering the attack. It introduces the idea of approaching an opponent's frontal targets from an Obscure Zone. The obscure delivery is such that your opponent is oblivious to the impending strikes. 

3.  THE ATTACK: The IDEAL PHASE of this technique commences from the front. Your opponent is applying a bear hug with your arms pinned. Study these additional WHAT IF factors:

  a. Your opponent is taller than you.
  b. Your opponent is shorter than you.
  c. Your opponent applies unbearable pressure.
  d. Your opponent lifts you off the ground.
  e. Your opponent attempts to throw you to the 
     ground.

4.  Be sure to employ a Bracing Angle by means of 
    a forward bow on your first move.

5.  Due to the tightness of the bear hug, you more 
    than likely will be forced to modify the depth 
    of your stance.

6.  This technique teaches you the value of Minor 
    Moves.

7.  Analyze the value and response obtained when 
    employing the Pin Point Effect.

8.  Analyze the reasons why you are stepping 
    forward during your last moves.

9.  Build spontaneity by having your opponent vary 
    his attacks: bear hug with your arms free or 
    bear hugs with your arms pinned. Respond with 
    sequences from either Striking Serpent's Head 
    or Thrusting Prongs. Practicing in this manner 
    will internalize the ability to respond to
    vailable targets with available weapons.

:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

Good post, Sir!:asian:


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## GaryM

I think the problem that some of the posters have with this tech is seeing the reality of the attack. It is not uncommon for a strong opponent to use this attack. By pinning your arms and burying his head into your chest and squeezing your hips tightly against his he effectivly nullifys your defenses. You can't head butt , use your hands to attack his head, or knee to the groin. By using the 'prongs' to create a little space you are able to bring the knee into play. If you doubt the effectivness of the prongs,  hold someone in the position described and try to maintain hip contact as they thrust the prongs. It doesn't have to be a strike, just a push digging in the thumbs. If you can keep them from creating enough space to use thier knee then we're all wrong. (that only takes about 1.5 inches by the way)  If the attacker lifts you off the ground, so what. The knee will effectivly stop that.  The attacker pushing you to the ground backwards isn't really the attack, that's more of a front tackle and the attacker has to have different hip placement to push you backwards. In this attack the opponent is either trying to hurt your back and/or pick you up (then he can take you down). It is a relatively slow developing attack so you are likely to have time to effect the counter before things get out of hand. Or not.


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## MisterMike

> You mean to tell me that it is not realistic to think that someone "might possibly" grab you in a front bearhug (arms free or pinned)? C'mon, you are just testing us with that question aren't you.....



Well, I may be just testing what I already know. Good post though, and very thorough. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by GaryM _*
> I think the problem that some of the posters have with this tech is seeing the reality of the attack.
> *



If what you say is true, then I feel that the we should look at how instruction on the "attack" be understood a little more, then show a "possible" maneuver.  How can you just learn a series of moves without understanding exactly what it is for?

I feel however, that the most important issue is, no matter who is right or wrong.... by its meer existance in any form....... "JUST LOOK" at what we are doing......... [[[[[examining and studying it]]]]]!!!!!!!!   

Now, that is really good to see, discuss, share, examine, explore different points of view, different possibilities, different combinations, different problems that we may not have thought of, and so on, with respect to others points of view!   

My only concern is that we get on the same page and study one specific scenairo at a time, if one persons "attack" is slightly different from anothers, then the results and series may "have" to be different.


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## Michael Billings

I sure looks like a technique that works to me!  Of course, I have made it work, as written, not only does the knee assisting them in putting you back down, but contingent on where and the angle of incidence of the thumb, that may be sufficient to ensure you are not picked up.

GREAT POST.

-Michael


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Try thinking of the foot stepping back as a very small step, just to give a little clearance, but primarily to rebound off the floor into the knee.  Try less of a "settle" into the shallow forward bow, but a bounce off the floor.  The timing of the suppressing check (crane) and knee should then occur almost simultaneously.
> 
> Note: there is a principle called stabilized assistance, which means that when you utilize the suppressing check, you are loading some of your weight on him and assisting your own balance.  It also ensures the target is less likely to be moved, and you are less likely to get a knee to the groin since you do "straddle the paddle" in this technique.
> 
> I have seen it other ways, but this is the one I choose to teach.
> 
> -Michael
> 
> Edited to clarify (and correct a word) *



This a very interesting technique that contains a great deal of effective mechanisms. I got to get to Texas to share some stuff. I would post it but it's a "secret" wink wink nod nod. :rofl: 

OK, it's not a secret but it is very difficult to convey "grappling mechanics" (vertical or otherwise) in a forum.

This technique, and others similar to it, is about what you do immediately when grabbed to misalign your attacker first before attempting a counter.


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## GaryM

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> [
> 
> My only concern is that we get on the same page and study one specific scenairo at a time, if one persons "attack" is slightly different from anothers, then the results and series may "have" to be different. [/B]





     That is an incredible idea (what  gd7 said). Maybe the attacks could be described in the  same detail as the techs? If you don't fully understand what the attack is, how can you really understand the technique? 
      There could also be suggestions for variations of the basic attack.  This would more than double the written material so I realize it's no small task.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by GaryM _
> *That is an incredible idea (what  gd7 said). Maybe the attacks could be described in the  same detail as the techs? If you don't fully understand what the attack is, how can you really understand the technique?
> There could also be suggestions for variations of the basic attack.  This would more than double the written material so I realize it's no small task. *



Doesn't everyone do that already? It is impossible to define a response to a non-specific assault. Dennis and I have been saying that for years.


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## Shiatsu

Doc you know you are welcome in Texas anytime.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *Doc you know you are welcome in Texas anytime. *


I appreciate that and look forward to it. I hear there are some "good guys" it Texas,  and that Billings guy too.


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## GaryM

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Doesn't everyone do that already? It is impossible to define a response to a non-specific assault. Dennis and I have been saying that for years. *





   I don't think that everyone has the attacks spelled out in great detail in writing.  It's been my experience that the descriptions are usually along the lines of " front bear hug, arms pinned". Has anyone here read so much detail about this particular attack before this thread? To me, truly understanding the attack is, of course, essential. My point is that this exteamly important information is not written, and is therefore left up to the interpretation of the indivdual instructor. Maybe we could start at the beginning of the techs and start describing the attack in great detail for each technique right here on this forumn.  This is uncharted territory.


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## pete

> Doesn't everyone do that already?  - Doc



from what i see, i don't think there is an "everyone"!


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by pete _*
> From what i see, i don't think there is an "everyone"!
> *



Then you have a limited point of view.


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## Thesemindz

The way we practice, the attacks get progressively more violent as the student advances in skill. When the student first learns this technique, the attack is a teddy bear hug, then as he get better it becomes a grizzly bear hug. Then it progresses to a bear hug with forward pressure pushing the opponent back. Then it adds a pick up or a drag down. All of this happens over the course of time as the student learns more about the technique and develops his understanding and skill. At the black belt level the attack is vigorous and immediate and the student must use the technique to subdue his opponent and prevent the attack increasing in violence.

-Rob


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## rmcrobertson

I'm going to agree with Doc-n'-Dennis here.

The attacks are described in fairly-general terms not only to encourage experimentation (AKA "misunderstanding"), but so that one does NOT limit the applications of the techniques unnecessarily.

Basically, it's a dead end to attempt to figure out and then train for every contingency. It's impossible. Better, I say, to learn a strong base technique--an ideal--that can be applied in many situations. Better, as was mentioned, to encourage fairly-real attacks. Better to build a solid martial artist who isn't going to stand there flipping through the endless rule-book (let's see...hang on a sec....Thrusting Prongs...Thrusting Prongs....aah....I see....yes...now version 12.7, sub c....here it is....attackers jumping out of a Klingon scout ship in twilight, with wind SSE less than 10 KPH...upon closing to hip swivel ring range...would you  just HANG ON A SEC...), which is what, "the paralysis of analysis," really refers to.

Besides, as the long-lost Clyde notes, in the end you revert to the "plain" technique, the ideal, anyway.

Incidentally, adaptation of technique to situation is another thing that those "useless," forms teach...


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## Michael Billings

that Mr. Conatser posted have, specifically, some of the What-If scenarios.  I would like to point out that teaching the Ideal is much easier, including the attack, than articulating it on a Board where not everyone is on the same page. 

In my association the attacks are standardized and specific.  That does not mean we do not practice the What-If's, just that some people take issue with teaching anything from the Ideal.   So they reinvent the wheel.

-Michael


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by pete _
> *from what i see, i don't think there is an "everyone"! *



Sorry sir, those who know me from my many postings over the years read that as "That's what everyone should be doing" with tongue firmly placed in cheek. I've preached this for quite some time in the forums. It seems many tend to make the assumption we are all on the same page, and it is clear we are not even close as I have always said. Set assumptions aside and discuss what you do, and explain in detail your rationale for that particular perspective. I've caught heat from some who want to speak in vague general terms and unclear assumptions, and admittedly sometime you have no choice due to the limitations of the medium, but being specific should be the rule not the exception.

Techniques are vehicles to teach specific principles whose applications are re-occurring much like principles of speech have multiple applications depending on what you're attempting to say. While you are learning, the applications are supposed to be functionally independent. Like a child who learns a simple one syllable word and its simple definition and use, over time you develop the ability to use the word in multiple ways with various meanings, nuances, and inflections.

So, self-defense based arts have an obligations to avoid the abstract teachings prevelant in other more cultural and esoteric perspectives, in favor of practical applications first, while imparting principles that will enhance that philosophy as a person grows and progresses to the level of a physical lingquist.

At least that is what Dennis told me!


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## Michael Billings

At least that is what Mr. Conatser told me.


-Michael


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## Goldendragon7

> _Orig posted by "Doc" & "Billings" _*
> At least that is what Mr. Conatser told me.
> *



And dat's the truff!!! .. PHallaaaatttttttttttttt

:hammer:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *that Mr. Conatser posted have, specifically, some of the What-If scenarios.  I would like to point out that teaching the Ideal is much easier, including the attack, than articulating it on a Board where not everyone is on the same page.
> 
> In my association the attacks are standardized and specific.  That does not mean we do not practice the What-If's, just that some people take issue with teaching anything from the Ideal.   So they reinvent the wheel.
> 
> -Michael *



Agreed sir. Students are confused when bombarded when endless "what if" scenarios when they have not inculcated significant basic information to be functional on that level.

Parker always told me "Never go into ""what if"" until after at least black belt, when it will mean something." and he stated such in his last "green belt manual."

I constantly have to remind my staff to "stop talking so much." Beginners, (everyone under black) need function first. You can always impress them with how much you know later. Questions that begin with "what if" are forbidden because often the answer is above their level and just adds to confusion. TOO much information can be a bad thing, especially if the goal is function. A good coach teaching you basketball for the first time would not let you touch the ball for months, let alone shoot.

There is a time and place for everything. Default Techniques, (what most call Ideal) should be capable of standing alone in any assault without "what ifs." Any MINOR variation in the attack should be accounted for in the default application. MAJOR variations should be addressed in other techniques, often at higher levels.

"Alternating Maces, Hooking Wings, and Snaking Talon" are all the same assault with variations significant enough to warrant a different response. Parker always said, "If you want all your questions answered, just stick around. If your questions weren't answered maybe you didn't stick around long enough." I tell my students the same thing.

"There is a tendancy in American Kenpo for students to want to be "scholars" while they are attempting to become "warriors." Become the warrior first or you will be a paper scholar with no true warrior skills." - Ron Chapél (Dam now I've started quoting myself)


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## kenpo12

> ." Become the warrior first or you will be a paper scholar with no true warrior skills."



AMEN!!!!!


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *"There is a tendancy in American Kenpo for students to want to be "scholars" while they are attempting to become "warriors." Become the warrior first or you will be a paper scholar with no true warrior skills." - Ron Chapél (Dam now I've started quoting myself) *



And it's a fine one at that. :asian:


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## Seig

I have to agree with that.  In a very basic analogy, years ago I was teaching a new black belt how to teach a class.  He wanted to go into tremendous detail about everything.  I told him, first teach them to make a proper fist.  He looked at me quite confused.  I explained to him, first you have to be able to make a proper fist, then you have to be able to demonstrate a proper fist, then you must explain a proper fist.  If they cannot make a proper fist, then everything else is useless.  Now that I am a bit older and wiser, I'd probably start with stances instead of fists......


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *My personal opinion about a frong bear hug arms pinned may be different than others view points. When I wrestled in school we used the front bear hug to take a person down by clasping our hands behind the small of the back while pushing our head against the chest region. This creates a serious amount of pain and puts the person back on their heels immediately if done properly. When you clasp your hands in the small of the back you "must" pull upward to make the hips come toward you and force the upper torso backward. This has been tested by me on the mats and I've had no one stay standing while I've done this in this particular manner.
> *



You know sir you make an excellent point. We make a difference in that type assault. When the head drops and is braced by the shoulders, we categorize that as a "high tackle" because the mechanics are different from our defined "bear hug."

Our methodology of "mis-aligning" will preclude someone from moving from a "bear hug" to a standing "high tackle."

Good points.


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *You know sir you make an excellent point. We make a difference in that type assault. When the head drops and is braced by the shoulders, we categorize that as a "high tackle" because the mechanics are different from our defined "bear hug."
> 
> Our methodology of "mis-aligning" will preclude someone from moving from a "bear hug" to a standing "high tackle."
> 
> Good points. *



Thank you, Sir. You know as well as I that this kind of bear hug that I described also wouldn't be executed "head on". Our body would be slightly off to the side to make a difference between a standard attack vs. non standard bear hug. It's interesting to me that you bring this up as a high tackle as I have never thought of it that way before. What type of technique do you have for this high tackle or do you modify Thrusting Prongs to work for you.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Thank you, Sir. You know as well as I that this kind of bear hug that I described also wouldn't be executed "head on". Our body would be slightly off to the side to make a difference between a standard attack vs. non standard bear hug. It's interesting to me that you bring this up as a high tackle as I have never thought of it that way before. What type of technique do you have for this high tackle or do you modify Thrusting Prongs to work for you. *



The way I was taught, all of the "hugging" type assault techniques take this into consideration in their Defaut (ideal) base form to preclude the attacker from being able to perform the mechanical action you described.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> * THRUSTING PRONGS (Front bear hug -- arms pinned)
> 
> 1.  Step back with your right foot toward 6 o'clock into a left forward bow (facing 12 o'clock). (You will probably modify it because of the pressure of the bear hug). Have only your right foot move back and not the upper body. Simultaneously thrust both of your thumbs (keeping thumbs together) up and to your opponent's groin. (Your opponent should bend forward at the waist as well as move his feet back and away from you.)
> 
> 2.  Now strike your opponent's groin with your right knee as your left hand circles over and on top of (clockwise) your opponent's right arm (forming the shape of a crane), and pins (with the assistance of your anchored left elbow) your opponent's right arm to you. Simultaneously with the above two actions **** your right hand to your right hip as a clearing check of your opponent's left arm, as well as in preparation for the next strike. (Your knee strike should magnify the damage to your opponent's groin.)
> 
> 3.  With your right knee in his groin, immediately deliver a right knife-edge kick to the inside of your opponent's left shin. (This action should force your opponent's left leg outward.)
> 
> 4.  Scrape your opponent's shin with your right foot, and convert the scrape into a right stomp to your opponent's left instep. This is done while simultaneously delivering a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of your opponent's face or ribs (depending on the size of your opponent). (This strike should drive your opponent's head up and away from you.)
> 
> 5.  Right front crossover, and cover out toward
> 7:30.
> 
> NOTES ON: THRUSTING PRONGS
> 
> 2.  THEME: The theme of this technique lies in the initial approach of countering the attack. It introduces the idea of approaching an opponent's frontal targets from an Obscure Zone. The obscure delivery is such that your opponent is oblivious to the impending strikes.
> 
> 6.  This technique teaches you the value of Minor
> Moves.
> 
> 7.  Analyze the value and response obtained when
> employing the Pin Point Effect.
> 
> 9.  Build spontaneity by having your opponent vary
> his attacks: bear hug with your arms free or
> bear hugs with your arms pinned. Respond with
> sequences from either Striking Serpent's Head
> or Thrusting Prongs. Practicing in this manner
> will internalize the ability to respond to
> available targets with available weapons.
> 
> :asian: *




Some things here for discussion: 

1.  How do you thrust up into the groin?  Your hands are moving on the horizontal plane.   Your arms are moving on the downward 45.

2.  Why strike the groin two consecutive times?  Will the body still be in position?

3.  What are the considered minor moves in this version?

4.  Where is the pin point effect used?  The elbow to the face or ribs, prongs to the groin, knee to the groin...

5.  You mean build the conditioned response so as to include default moves for particular attacks.


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## rmcrobertson

Well...

1. With the knee, as the left hand pulls down a bit.

2. You don't. Thumbs to bladder/"top" of groin, downward angle; knee to testicles, coming up.

3. The left crane/hooking chop would prob'ly be a minor move, though one, "with a major effect."

4. Not familiar with the terminology you're using, but I'd argue that a beginner should not be getting into what I suspect you mean by those, "pin points."


Thanks.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Well...
> 
> 1. With the knee, as the left hand pulls down a bit.
> 
> 2. You don't. Thumbs to bladder/"top" of groin, downward angle; knee to testicles, coming up.
> 
> 3. The left crane/hooking chop would prob'ly be a minor move, though one, "with a major effect."
> 
> 4. Not familiar with the terminology you're using, but I'd argue that a beginner should not be getting into what I suspect you mean by those, "pin points."
> 
> 
> Thanks. *



Pin point effect- page 93 encyclopedia of kenpo.    I agree with you're #3 it cancels height and width with a zero degree of lethality.    According to the tek discription the thrust is done with the hands, it is impossible to thrust up for a number of reasons.  Again the tek discription calls for two consecutive attacks to the groin.


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## rmcrobertson

Look, I certainly don't claim to know everything about kenpo---but for one thing, my point was that when you first learn the technique you do NOT need that much technical verbiage. And to be honest about what I think of verbiage--"zero degree of lethality?" I don't mean to be rude, but if somebody who studied as much literary theory as I did kvetches about verbiage...

On another point, my point was that the thumbs and the knee don't strike the same target, with the same weapon, at the same angle.


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## Michael Billings

... rolling the thumbs in and down into the bladder, pubic bone area, then "thrusting", often the thrust is unnecessary as your opponent "plants" you back on the ground, (if he has achieved any lift at all?)  Your knee is striking from a different Angle of Entry with a different Angle of Incidence ... in other words, we are not striking the same target twice.

Thoughts?  Give it a try ... it really works if someone has jammed you up tight against their body as the push you into the shortened forward bow stance, or if not pushing, allows the forward bow to rebound from the floor.

-Michael


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Look, I certainly don't claim to know everything about kenpo---but for one thing, my point was that when you first learn the technique you do NOT need that much technical verbiage. And to be honest about what I think of verbiage--"zero degree of lethality?" I don't mean to be rude, but if somebody who studied as much literary theory as I did kvetches about verbiage...
> 
> On another point, my point was that the thumbs and the knee don't strike the same target, with the same weapon, at the same angle. *



I already gave you book and page # on "my" concept of pin point effect.    It's an orange belt requirement.   You really need to learn the basics before questioning material that is above your head.   x=-2x+y  if you didn't know x had a value of 1 (rule of thumb) someone might not come up with the correct value.  What I am trying to say is because you have an education (BLACK BELT) you have the basics.  There are other rules you have to have as well to solve the equation but you get the idea.   

Kenpo has the same learning scheme as any other field.  It is all about how much you need and want.   Ed Parker had terms like engineer of motion.  What do engineers do?  How far do they go?   How far can they go?    Does everybody want to go to mars?  No, but some want to see what is there.   

The Tracy system gives you the solutions.   They have a lot of teks and you pretty much have a conditioned response for... I don't know, say, anything in the world that could come at you.   AK gives you only 154.  600 vs. 154.  Do you see the reason for the jargon being the heart of the art now?   If you teach Ak like Tracy,  AK is not going to work as well with only 154.    It has to be a given that a person physically trains otherwise there is nothing to base anything off of.  The principles work when you move, you can feel them.  They are not what the art is based off of but they can be manipulated to enhance power etc.   Concepts are largely for each groups inner circle because that is where the art becomes deadly and easily so at some point or another.   

This is basically how I see and use the art.   Teaching is another thread in and of itself let alone which tek is being taught and how it is to be done.


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## rmcrobertson

The point of theoretical language is to make understanding easier, to provide a kind of symbolic shorthand, not to pile up words. It is also not to legitimate bullying.

It's pretty weird, to me, (who spent around seven-eight years in grad school studying literary and cultural theory) to get jumped with hating theory, or not seeing its purpose. Huh.

You simply disagree with a lot of what I've been taught, and a lot of what I presently think about kenpo. That's fine; not a problem, and I'd be interested to see the differences explained--especially since to say that I have a lot to learn is a hilarious understatement. Why not just say that you don't see it the way I do, and explain your own training and ideas, rather than telling me that a wading pool is, "over my head?"

Must not be my day on MT; a sensible person would go finish the dishes, not be writing this.


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## Michael Billings

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *The Tracy system gives you the solutions.   They have a lot of teks and you pretty much have a conditioned response for... I don't know, say, anything in the world that could come at you.   AK gives you only 154.  600 vs. 154.  Do you see the reason for the jargon being the heart of the art now?   If you teach Ak like Tracy,  AK is not going to work as well with only 154.    It has to be a given that a person physically trains otherwise there is nothing to base anything off of.  The principles work when you move, you can feel them.  They are not what the art is based off of but they can be manipulated to enhance power etc.   Concepts are largely for each groups inner circle because that is where the art becomes deadly and easily so at some point or another.
> *



Very interesting observation.  Having come from a Tracy background 1979-1985 or so, I had not made this connection.  

We are clearly off topic now, and I have to redirect, but find this a very interesting interpretation of the difference between the learning paradigms, definitly worth starting a new thread in the Kenpo General Forum if you are so inclined.

Respectfully,
-Michael


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Very interesting observation.  Having come from a Tracy background 1979-1985 or so, I had not made this connection.
> 
> We are clearly off topic now, and I have to redirect, but find this a very interesting interpretation of the difference between the learning paradigms, definitly worth starting a new thread in the Kenpo General Forum if you are so inclined.
> 
> Respectfully,
> -Michael *



Trust me we are not off topic-  This is actually going to come around to the thrust in Thrusting Prongs.  There is a problem in Roberts targeting.  He will just think I am picking on him if I don't aquiant him with some advanced material or what is and how it can be used. 

So here is another part.  What I am saying is not contrary to what you have been taught it is higher up the food chain.   When my teacher first started coming off with the basics of advanced material I thought he was wacked.   I remember I used to snap at him because he just kept pounding me with it... Then one day it started to manifest itself.   And it becomes like a snowball rolling down an endless hill.  I am lucky no doubt about it, I also have another... Teacher of my teachers teacher.   He could just give me a word, a bam, a pam...   You got it, slap cks are the ==it.
They have to be done just so, other wise they could just be a hinderance.

Here comes the simple part.  Thrusting is for power.   Agree or disagree?


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## rmcrobertson

"Higher up the food chain." Good one; most illuminating.

Well, well, my, my. I guess I'll just have to keep limping along with my own weak wits and my own inadequate teachers. Of course, it HAS been my general experience that this sort of thing never accompanies real knowledge, but there's always a first time.


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## MJS

Well, you know, considering that we all come from different teachers, I'm sure that there is going to be some difference in what is taught.  Rather than listen to what others have to say, it seems to me like some people are too pre-occupied with thinking that someone is saying something negative about them or their teacher.

Mike


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *"Higher up the food chain." Good one; most illuminating.
> 
> Well, well, my, my. I guess I'll just have to keep limping along with my own weak wits and my own inadequate teachers. Of course, it HAS been my general experience that this sort of thing never accompanies real knowledge, but there's always a first time. *



Stay on Point.

Thrusting is for power-  Agree or disagree.


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Stay on Point.
> 
> Thrusting is for power-  Agree or disagree. *


I'll join in this discussion.  I think it is situational, sometimes a thrust is for power, sometimes it is for gaining more distance, and on some occasions, it's bait....


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## kenpo12

> Thrusting is for power- Agree or disagree.



Disagree.  

Now, why am I wrong or right?


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## rmcrobertson

Binary oppositions: emblematic of thinking in the register of the Imaginary. While accurate, such articulation of questions tends to the incomplete. We may also discern a certain reinforcement of the ideal-I in the somewhat-forcedly gnomic discursivity placed on display; as in all such formulations, the "knotted," character of the logic operates as a legible concealment (one almost might say, a cocooning) of the subject's retrospectively reconstructing its originary recoiling in the presence of the objet petit a.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Binary oppositions: emblematic of thinking in the register of the Imaginary. While accurate, such articulation of questions tends to the incomplete. We may also discern a certain reinforcement of the ideal-I in the somewhat-forcedly gnomic discursivity placed on display; as in all such formulations, the "knotted," character of the logic operates as a legible concealment (one almost might say, a cocooning) of the subject's retrospectively reconstructing its originary recoiling in the presence of the objet petit a. *


I look forward to the response. Your point is well made. A+

"Mama, Robert won't play fair!":rofl:


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *I'll join in this discussion.  I think it is situational, sometimes a thrust is for power, sometimes it is for gaining more distance, and on some occasions, it's bait.... *



Not only is it situational it depends on what concepts you choose to highlight and what you are thrusting with.    That being said what is the objective for the Thrusting Prongs?  Are the prongs thrusting or being thrusted by the unfolding of the elbows?   Where is the power really coming from and finally what does the forward bow have to do with any of this?


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Are the prongs thrusting or being thrusted by the unfolding of the elbows?   *



Excellent question.


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Are the prongs thrusting or being thrusted by the unfolding of the elbows?   Where is the power really coming from and finally what does the forward bow have to do with any of this? *


If I am understanding your question properly, here is my answer.
I do not feel the thumbs themselves will generate sufficient power of and by themselves, therefore they would have to be powered by another force, in this situation, the elbows (with a judiscious application of proper torque).  The forward bow is being used to created not only a bracing angle but to use your upper body as a check against your opponent.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *If I am understanding your question properly, here is my answer.
> I do not feel the thumbs themselves will generate sufficient power of and by themselves, therefore they would have to be powered by another force, in this situation, the elbows (with a judiscious application of proper torque).  The forward bow is being used to created not only a bracing angle but to use your upper body as a check against your opponent. *



Depends on the target.  In this case though the power generator is the stance change to the forward bow.  Since we are combining a thrust and a forward bow we are in a committed and dynamic power stroke.  So the thumbs are the tool of penetraition and not so much the weapon but the contact point of the weapon.  Which target do you strike with so much power and why.


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## Seig

That is going to depend on several factors.  In the base technique, Mr. C has us strike the groin.  There are other viable targets also.  I have a long torso and short arms, therefore, I prefer to strike the bladder or just above the pubic mound.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *That is going to depend on several factors.  In the base technique, Mr. C has us strike the groin.  There are other viable targets also.  I have a long torso and short arms, therefore, I prefer to strike the bladder or just above the pubic mound. *



Okay.  Method of execution for a thrust is linear meaning the natural weapon travels in a straight line.   Path is vertical, horizontal, or diagonal.  Roundhousing is the weapon traveling on an arc and hitting befor the apex or at the apex.  So when you change targets take into consideration that the method of execution has not been changed.   If the method has been altered due to body mismatches it is no longer thrusting prongs.  

Some people are very thick around their mid section and you can't get to the groin or the bladder, but guess where mass doesn't usually accumilate?  Where the femur meets the pelvis on either side of the bladder.  It is structurally weak when not thrust forward.  When thrust forward (as you know because of your grappling experience) it is the most powerful action you body has.  This is a constant.  The groin is a pain compliant strike and not everyone reacts the same to pain.   

When you do thrust into the bladder or the groin what is the body reaction you get?


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## kenpoangel

Yes the target at our school is the bladder, although I would imagine that depending on the height of the attacker, I agree that would change.

The power I thought of this technique comes from the forward motion and the borrowed force of the attacker.  Stepping back in the forward bow gives you the bracing angle needed to stop him from mowing you down.  Keeping the elbows anchored aides in this stability and once those thumbs are thrusted into the bladder, it's not going to be pleasant for the attacker if he's storming down on you the way I suspect he will be for this technique.

Anyway, good discussion thus far,

Angela


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *
> When you do thrust into the bladder or the groin what is the body reaction you get? *


In most instances, when a proper strike is executed to the groin, it has been my experience that I get a "lift" from the attacker(meaning the body goes up, not back).  I do not normally see them bend over with the hips tilted to the rear(this particular action seems to happen more when the attacker is trying to preven himself from getting hit in the groin).  As a general rule, when I hit someone in the groin, I get the above mentioned lift and the legs opened, creating an off balance posture and opening up the center line. (This does not seem to be in response to the pain.  When I see a pain repsonse, they usually crumple, or bend over and back away.)  More often than not, when I hit a bladder in the studio, I get an upper torso crunch and then have to be aware of an involuntary head butt.  In the real world, not only do I get the above reaction, but have caused the attacker to void their bladder.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *In most instances, when a proper strike is executed to the groin, it has been my experience that I get a "lift" from the attacker(meaning the body goes up, not back).  I do not normally see them bend over with the hips tilted to the rear(this particular action seems to happen more when the attacker is trying to preven himself from getting hit in the groin).  As a general rule, when I hit someone in the groin, I get the above mentioned lift and the legs opened, creating an off balance posture and opening up the center line. (This does not seem to be in response to the pain.  When I see a pain repsonse, they usually crumple, or bend over and back away.)  More often than not, when I hit a bladder in the studio, I get an upper torso crunch and then have to be aware of an involuntary head butt.  In the real world, not only do I get the above reaction, but have caused the attacker to void their bladder. *



Interesting.  I expected the bladder reaction and was even prepared for the groin reaction be it still surprises me.   You know the normal reaction for a groin strike is the hips go slightly backward and the knees come together with an upper body compression... kinda like a concave stance unless the strike is coming up.   Are your people a lot taller than you are or is your groin strike curved or are you dropping down really low?   

On an incoming head but from the bladder strike is the body bent forward at the hinge or waiste area or what is causing the opponensts head to move in?


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Interesting.  I expected the bladder reaction and was even prepared for the groin reaction be it still surprises me.   You know the normal reaction for a groin strike is the hips go slightly backward and the knees come together with an upper body compression... kinda like a concave stance unless the strike is coming up.   Are your people a lot taller than you are or is your groin strike curved or are you dropping down really low?
> 
> On an incoming head but from the bladder strike is the body bent forward at the hinge or waiste area or what is causing the opponensts head to move in? *


I am only 5'8" Most people are taller than I am, and I drop down too to take advantage of my low center of gravity and weight.  As for the head comming in, I believe that is due to the angle of my strikes forcing their hips back at the pelvic joints.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *I am only 5'8" Most people are taller than I am, and I drop down too to take advantage of my low center of gravity and weight.  As for the head comming in, I believe that is due to the angle of my strikes forcing their hips back at the pelvic joints. *



Which pelvic joints?  Do you mean the waist or where your femurs join to the pelvis or all 3?


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Which pelvic joints?  Do you mean the waist or where your femurs join to the pelvis or all 3? *


When I hit someone in that region, it forces their hips back by forcing the hip sockets out and the waist to "crunch", thus opening them up.  The unintentional head butt is almost like a whiplash type of movement.


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *When I hit someone in that region, it forces their hips back by forcing the hip sockets out and the waist to "crunch", thus opening them up.  The unintentional head butt is almost like a whiplash type of movement. *



Are you saying their legs open like a convex stance?  By crunch you mean a posture similar to crunches... as in situps where the spine compresses with only a slight C curve?   Whips are a tricky subject- they can either go joint by joint or fuse a couple of joints or the wave in the whip is very small changing how much movement there is and the speed as well.  It is possible to get all of or any of these effects depending on depth of penetraition, angle of incidence and path.  

Have to pick this up tommorrow dude... too much fun thanx for the dialogue.


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## Seig

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Are you saying their legs open like a convex stance?  By crunch you mean a posture similar to crunches... as in situps where the spine compresses with only a slight C curve?   Whips are a tricky subject- they can either go joint by joint or fuse a couple of joints or the wave in the whip is very small changing how much movement there is and the speed as well.  It is possible to get all of or any of these effects depending on depth of penetraition, angle of incidence and path.
> 
> Have to pick this up tommorrow dude... too much fun thanx for the dialogue. *


Any time!!!!!!!
I'm saying their legs open like someone grabbed their knees and pulled them apart. Crunch as in about half a sit up.


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## Maltair

Here is what I have put togeather

1: Left knee to groin, head butt, fingers to kidneys (shaped like crane beak) all one move

2:Step back into r neutral bow.  Elbows out, hands to opp pelvis and push away.

3:Hands circle up the center line and out, grab opp upper arms and pull in as you execute Left kick to mid section.


Think this will work well enough?


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Maltair _
> *Here is what I have put togeather
> 
> 1: Left knee to groin, head butt, fingers to kidneys (shaped like crane beak) all one move
> 
> 2:Step back into r neutral bow.  Elbows out, hands to opp pelvis and push away.
> 
> 3:Hands circle up the center line and out, grab opp upper arms and pull in as you execute Left kick to mid section.
> 
> 
> Think this will work well enough? *


When are you going to deal with the fact that the atacker is "bear-huging" and controlling you?


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## rmcrobertson

I agree. In fact, I was bugging a couple of folks about this just Saturday morning...in a similar mistake, one of them was trying to drive their thumbs into the attacker's sternum (!)--hard to do, when you're getting bear-hugged.

In fact, when Toni first taught me this technique, her take was that, for example, you'd been sitting in a bar, and the Really Big Burly Guy right next to you slipped off the bar-stool and just flang his arms around....so, you'd gotten driven back, which was why the forward bow in the ideal phase of the technique, and why the "prongs," went to...the bladder.

Apparently, too, the last ten years of his life or so, good luck trying to get your arms completely around the likes of Mr. Parker and getting some sort of crane-hand into the kidneys. Then too, I tend to suspect that anybody who's going to bear-hug you is going to be big, bulky, and pretty well armored through the torso...


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