# MMA For self defence explained.



## drop bear

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1778522622413809
			




Pretty deep huh.


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## Hanzou

A little OT, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching blood gush out of Weidman's fat arrogant head.

Long time coming IMO.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> A little OT, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching blood gush out of Weidman's fat arrogant head.
> 
> Long time coming IMO.



OT?


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## Tony Dismukes

Every so often I start thinking that I've developed a bit of skill and that my movement isn't too bad. Then I watch guys at that level and am reminded that, no, I really suck.

Fortunately I don't have plans to fight any world champions in the immediate future.


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## Kickboxer101

How was that self defence explained? That was a video of a cage fight. It was good but I don't see how I don't see how it's self defence


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## Kickboxer101

Hanzou said:


> A little OT, but I thoroughly enjoyed watching blood gush out of Weidman's fat arrogant head.
> 
> Long time coming IMO.


Better to be arrogant than a pure cheater like Romero


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## drop bear

Kickboxer101 said:


> How was that self defence explained? That was a video of a cage fight. It was good but I don't see how I don't see how it's self defence



Told you it was deep.


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## Gerry Seymour

Did that have sound? I got no audio from it here.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Did that have sound? I got no audio from it here.



no sound just video.


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## drop bear

drop bear said:


> Told you it was deep.



What are the common issues raised with using grappling in self defence?


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> What are the common issues raised with using grappling in self defence?


The ones I hear most are "you'll never get ahold of his hands/arms/legs" and "you'll get punched to death while you're trying to take him down". Of course, the Gracies did a decent job of demonstrating in MMA that both of those aren't true long ago.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> The ones I hear most are "you'll never get ahold of his hands/arms/legs" and "you'll get punched to death while you're trying to take him down". Of course, the Gracies did a decent job of demonstrating in MMA that both of those aren't true long ago.



Rolling around on lava and aids needles.

Vunerable to multiple oponants.

Not training to escape a situation.

And yet what we see here is fighting for stand up and escape. Bring mobile and striking rather than engaging in a submissions match. A much closer resemblance to a self defence situation than is generally claimed.


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## Hanzou

drop bear said:


> OT?



Off topic.


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## Hanzou

Tony Dismukes said:


> Every so often I start thinking that I've developed a bit of skill and that my movement isn't too bad. Then I watch guys at that level and am reminded that, no, I really suck.
> 
> Fortunately I don't have plans to fight any world champions in the immediate future.



Kind of scary to think that there are people out there that can kill you with their bare hands despite all your years of training.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Rolling around on lava and aids needles.
> 
> Vunerable to multiple oponants.
> 
> Not training to escape a situation.
> 
> And yet what we see here is fighting for stand up and escape. Bring mobile and striking rather than engaging in a submissions match. A much closer resemblance to a self defence situation than is generally claimed.


Ah! You're talking about the common objections to groundwork. For me, the term "grappling" includes standing work, too.

Yes, those are all common objections, and all are valid. And, as you've pointed out in the past, all can be overcome with a change in approach. That approach mostly fits with what is shown in this video. What we see in many MMA fights doesn't fit that same shift in approach.


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## Gerry Seymour

Hanzou said:


> Kind of scary to think that there are people out there that can kill you with their bare hands despite all your years of training.


Not really. The chance of me pissing one of them off enough to do so is pretty slim.


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> Ah! You're talking about the common objections to groundwork. For me, the term "grappling" includes standing work, too.
> 
> Yes, those are all common objections, and all are valid. And, as you've pointed out in the past, all can be overcome with a change in approach. That approach mostly fits with what is shown in this video. What we see in many MMA fights doesn't fit that same shift in approach.


I think this shift is very common.   Its a matter of strategy.

Every mma fighter learns take down defense and all the rest.  Some are just better at it than others.  And because if how they train, the guys who can't do it well know it.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Ah! You're talking about the common objections to groundwork. For me, the term "grappling" includes standing work, too.
> 
> Yes, those are all common objections, and all are valid. And, as you've pointed out in the past, all can be overcome with a change in approach. That approach mostly fits with what is shown in this video. What we see in many MMA fights doesn't fit that same shift in approach.



Depends what you are looking at a what you are looking for. I still think most people don't see what is actually happening in a MMA fight. Or see what they want to see.

Which is why I seem to have to consistently clarify what MMA fighters focus on.

See MMA for self defence explained.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> I think this shift is very common.   Its a matter of strategy.
> 
> Every mma fighter learns take down defense and all the rest.  Some are just better at it than others.  And because if how they train, the guys who can't do it well know it.



It is also this ground fighting to stand up as a kind of win. Just as part of training. Which is at its simplest is going into turtle rather than re guarding.

Which you will see a bit if rolling with punches.


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## drop bear

Hanzou said:


> Kind of scary to think that there are people out there that can kill you with their bare hands despite all your years of training.



kind of scary bloody sparring them.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I think this shift is very common.   Its a matter of strategy.
> 
> Every mma fighter learns take down defense and all the rest.  Some are just better at it than others.  And because if how they train, the guys who can't do it well know it.


I'm not talking about takedown defense (that's pretty much a given in the current MMA context). I'm referring to what DB was pointing out in that video - actually avoiding going to the ground, which is not the strategy of all in MMA; some have going to the ground as their strategy (ground-n-pound). I don't consider that an effective SD strategy, as it both exposes the proponent to other attackers (girlfriends, etc.) and exposes them to legal issues. On the other hand, it's a proven, effective strategy for MMA competition, so no reason not to use it there.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Depends what you are looking at a what you are looking for. I still think most people don't see what is actually happening in a MMA fight. Or see what they want to see.
> 
> Which is why I seem to have to consistently clarify what MMA fighters focus on.
> 
> See MMA for self defence explained.


I'm not sure what the point is in this post, Drop Bear. Can you point me in the right direction?


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## Steve

gpseymour said:


> I'm not talking about takedown defense (that's pretty much a given in the current MMA context). I'm referring to what DB was pointing out in that video - actually avoiding going to the ground, which is not the strategy of all in MMA; some have going to the ground as their strategy (ground-n-pound). I don't consider that an effective SD strategy, as it both exposes the proponent to other attackers (girlfriends, etc.) and exposes them to legal issues. On the other hand, it's a proven, effective strategy for MMA competition, so no reason not to use it there.


Everyone is training to take people down and avoid the takedown.   Whether you do one or the other is strategy specific to the opponent. 

Some fighters to into some fights planning to take that specific fight to the mat.  Theyb do so because they think they're better there than the particular person they are fighting.


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## Buka

Hanzou said:


> Kind of scary to think that there are people out there that can kill you with their bare hands despite all your years of training.



What scares me more is some drunken a-hole running a red light, or some kid texting behind the wheel. 

As for those that can kill me with their bare hands, not a bad way to go, actually. Then my friends could say "He died doing what he did best. Getting his **** kicked."


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> Everyone is training to take people down and avoid the takedown.   Whether you do one or the other is strategy specific to the opponent.
> 
> Some fighters to into some fights planning to take that specific fight to the mat.  Theyb do so because they think they're better there than the particular person they are fighting.


Precisely. And my position is that this isn't a good strategy for self-defense. Too many uncontrolled variables for that strategy. It's one of the contextual differences between MMA and self-defense. There's no penalty for going for groundwork in MMA if that's your strong suit (and moreso than your opponent).


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I'm not talking about takedown defense (that's pretty much a given in the current MMA context). I'm referring to what DB was pointing out in that video - actually avoiding going to the ground, which is not the strategy of all in MMA; some have going to the ground as their strategy (ground-n-pound). I don't consider that an effective SD strategy, as it both exposes the proponent to other attackers (girlfriends, etc.) and exposes them to legal issues. On the other hand, it's a proven, effective strategy for MMA competition, so no reason not to use it there.



For self defence Ground and pound is fine provided you stay mobile and be quick about it. And it finishes fights more quickly than trading punches in a 50/50. legaly it has to be justified like any force.

Standing does not protect you from being glassed in the back of the head by someone's girlfriend. Moving protects you.

Considering something as a non effective strategy for self defence is pretty non specific and does not address all the risks vs reward you may get in a fight.

So for example if someone is armed and you get the guy with a punch. I can pretty much guarantee you will follow that guy to the ground or even China if it means not giving him any time to use the thing.


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure what the point is in this post, Drop Bear. Can you point me in the right direction?



Could you tell if a person on the ground is looking to stand up or submit someone?

or even what throw was being used in the video?


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## oaktree

Here's my take guy tries to take down with leg my beer bottle smashes back of his head and me and my friends kick him real enough for you? Cause that is reality


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## Steve

oaktree said:


> Here's my take guy tries to take down with leg my beer bottle smashes back of his head and me and my friends kick him real enough for you? Cause that is reality


I've been in a lot of bars in several different countries and I've never seen that happen.  Sounds like make believe to me.


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> Here's my take guy tries to take down with leg my beer bottle smashes back of his head and me and my friends kick him real enough for you? Cause that is reality



Yeah that is real enough, but when I got bottled, I was pretty pissed off. Put it this way, I got up, and his friends ran. That is my reality  Yeah though, bully tactics sometimes work against the uninitiated!


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## drop bear

oaktree said:


> Here's my take guy tries to take down with leg my beer bottle smashes back of his head and me and my friends kick him real enough for you? Cause that is reality



I am more than happy to bash dudes who glass people. Even if I am not previously involved in the fight.

Because it is one of the scummiest things you can do.


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## oaktree

Steve said:


> I've been in a lot of bars in several different countries and I've never seen that happen.  Sounds like make believe to me.


It happens same as stabbing a guy, shooting a guy as well, just because you never have seen it doesn't mean other's have not seen or lived it


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## Transk53

drop bear said:


> I am more than happy to bash dudes who glass people. Even if I am not previously involved in the fight.
> 
> Because it is one of the scummiest things you can do.



Yeah, can't get away with that in the UK though, as much as you would want to pound them though.


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## oaktree

Transk53 said:


> Yeah that is real enough, but when I got bottled, I was pretty pissed off. Put it this way, I got up, and his friends ran. That is my reality  Yeah though, bully tactics sometimes work against the uninitiated!


Guess he didn't hit you with a bottle and keep grabbing more, for me after first bottle over the head next comes the knife to the stomach a couple of times


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> I've been in a lot of bars in several different countries and I've never seen that happen.  Sounds like make believe to me.



It happens. It doesn't necessarily shut down the fight. Does land you in jail.

Jail sentence for horrific pub glassing: video

Naughty nurse avoids jail after glassing at Albion Park pub: video


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> Guess he didn't hit you with a bottle and keep grabbing more, for me after first bottle over the head next comes the knife to the stomach a couple of times



Nah, figured the bottle would take me out. Many have tried, all have failed. So far


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## oaktree

Transk53 said:


> Nah, figured the bottle would take me out. Many have tried, all have failed. So far


Which is why I said knife you a couple times in the stomach


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## oaktree

I remember once taking a brick to the head during a street fight left me punch drunk I guess a bottle to the head would do a similar thing


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## drop bear

oaktree said:


> Guess he didn't hit you with a bottle and keep grabbing more, for me after first bottle over the head next comes the knife to the stomach a couple of times


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> I remember once taking a brick to the head during a street fight left me punch drunk I guess a bottle to the head would do a similar thing



Oh yeah, got a brick thrown at me as a kid. Hit me square on the temple. Yeah I saw stars for a moment. Thankfully that was just playtime. With the bottle, I knew it was coming, so just rode it out I guess. Still though, was not pleasant, but kind of pleasant all the same. Yeah


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> Which is why I said knife you a couple times in the stomach



Yeah but surely you would have the presence of mind to avoid that? Or aleast trap and grab, and pretty much screw the elbow, or break the hand. Getting caught cold is a little silly in my mind.


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## Steve

oaktree said:


> It happens same as stabbing a guy, shooting a guy as well, just because you never have seen it doesn't mean other's have not seen or lived it


I'm sure it happens.  I just don't believe it happens often.   Getting into bar fights, in particular, is a very easy thing to prevent.

The idea that anyone can get shot or stabbed is at least something that may happen randomly, even if the odds are extremely remote. 

I may as well train for self defense against a bear attack as the chances of that happening to me are about the same.


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> Guess he didn't hit you with a bottle and keep grabbing more, for me after first bottle over the head next comes the knife to the stomach a couple of times



Missed this post. Knife, no he would not get close. Simply because I would grab what was necessary.


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## oaktree

Steve said:


> I'm sure it happens.  I just don't believe it happens often.   Getting into bar fights, in particular, is a very easy thing to prevent.
> 
> The idea that anyone can get shot or stabbed is at least something that may happen randomly, even if the odds are extremely remote.
> 
> I may as well train for self defense against a bear attack as the chances of that happening to me are about the same.


Well Steve that is the difference between us, I train as if someone wants to kill me, I guess different life experience we have


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## oaktree

Transk53 said:


> Yeah but surely you would have the presence of mind to avoid that? Or aleast trap and grab, and pretty much screw the elbow, or break the hand. Getting caught cold is a little silly in my mind.


You would be surprise how easy it is and fast a knife attack happens


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## oaktree

Transk53 said:


> Missed this post. Knife, no he would not get close. Simply because I would grab what was necessary.


If he can hit you with a bottle sure can knife you after it doesnt take long to unsheathed one, I have one under my long sleeves and back near kidney less than a second to recall it. The best way a knife works is hidden


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> If he can hit you with a bottle sure can knife you after it doesnt take long to unsheathed one, I have one under my long sleeves and back near kidney less than a second to recall it. The best way a knife works is hidden



Yes of course, the trick is to think of concealment. He ain't getting there


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> You would be surprise how easy it is and fast a knife attack happens



Yes, got slashed by a Stanley at 16, hence my position


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## oaktree

Transk53 said:


> Yes, got slashed by a Stanley at 16, hence my position


Welcome to the club of being attacked with a knife cheers


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> For self defence Ground and pound is fine provided you stay mobile and be quick about it. And it finishes fights more quickly than trading punches in a 50/50. legaly it has to be justified like any force.
> 
> Standing does not protect you from being glassed in the back of the head by someone's girlfriend. Moving protects you.
> 
> Considering something as a non effective strategy for self defence is pretty non specific and does not address all the risks vs reward you may get in a fight.
> 
> So for example if someone is armed and you get the guy with a punch. I can pretty much guarantee you will follow that guy to the ground or even China if it means not giving him any time to use the thing.


Ground and pound - putting someone down and continuing to beat them - that's a dicey position to try to claim self-defense. There's a real possibility that you transition from "victim" to "defendant" in that moment. And no, nothing prevents you from being glassed from behind. Being on the ground makes you a lot more vulnerable than standing, though.

I never said it wasn't an effective strategy. Just that it has weaknesses for self-defense that don't exist in competition. I'm not sure that's even debatable.


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Could you tell if a person on the ground is looking to stand up or submit someone?
> 
> or even what throw was being used in the video?


In most cases, yes, I can tell if someone is trying to get to a submission or trying to get up.


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## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> I've been in a lot of bars in several different countries and I've never seen that happen.  Sounds like make believe to me.


Definitely seems over-stated. The kicking thing is a reality in some situations. The beer bottle thing could happen, but I've yet to see it.


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## Gerry Seymour

oaktree said:


> Guess he didn't hit you with a bottle and keep grabbing more, for me after first bottle over the head next comes the knife to the stomach a couple of times


If you do that in response to someone trying to take you down, you're going WAY too far. Probably facing a trial.


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## Transk53

oaktree said:


> Welcome to the club of being attacked with a knife cheers



Exactly. Whether it is an ice tray, a barmans wipe rag, a coat, a cushion or whatever, the knife is easily nullified with precision movement. Even if that means moving out of range and calling for help. Some people think that is woosing out, some of us really could not care less


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## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Ground and pound - putting someone down and continuing to beat them - that's a dicey position to try to claim self-defense. There's a real possibility that you transition from "victim" to "defendant" in that moment. And no, nothing prevents you from being glassed from behind. Being on the ground makes you a lot more vulnerable than standing, though.
> 
> I never said it wasn't an effective strategy. Just that it has weaknesses for self-defense that don't exist in competition. I'm not sure that's even debatable.



Of course it is defensible. because you just claim the umbrella of "self defence"

In some circumstances it is completely defencable in others not so much. There are circumstances of self defence.

You have a harder time glassing someone standing as you do on the ground? seriously forget about the dogma you have been told and think about that one.


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## oaktree

gpseymour said:


> If you do that in response to someone trying to take you down, you're going WAY too far. Probably facing a trial.


Not necessarily, it really depends on the circumstances, a man who is a bodybuilder vs a crippled elderly man with a pace maker it may be justified self defense. 
A lot of factors come into play, personally no matter what if you fight there is a chance of trial even no weapons, but we are talking about reality here, and your opponent may or may not intentionally try to kill you but you have no idea knowing that lots of people get killed by slams and weapons why risk it, for me I have to make it home don't care what I have to do to be able to do that. So about reality are you prepare to stab, bite hit a guy with a brick to get home because he might be.


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## drop bear

oaktree said:


> Not necessarily, it really depends on the circumstances, a man who is a bodybuilder vs a crippled elderly man with a pace maker it may be justified self defense.
> A lot of factors come into play, personally no matter what if you fight there is a chance of trial even no weapons, but we are talking about reality here, and your opponent may or may not intentionally try to kill you but you have no idea knowing that lots of people get killed by slams and weapons why risk it, for me I have to make it home don't care what I have to do to be able to do that. So about reality are you prepare to stab, bite hit a guy with a brick to get home because he might be.



Are you a crippled elderly man?


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## oaktree

drop bear said:


> Are you a crippled elderly man?


And what if I am


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## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Of course it is defensible. because you just claim the umbrella of "self defence"
> 
> In some circumstances it is completely defencable in others not so much. There are circumstances of self defence.
> 
> You have a harder time glassing someone standing as you do on the ground? seriously forget about the dogma you have been told and think about that one.


I don't know about the laws in other countries, but in the US "self-defense" doesn't create a blanket immunity. Response has to be proportional to the perceived threat. Taking someone to the ground and continuing to hit them once they are there can make the defender become the attacker in the eyes of the law.

And, yes, it is easier to avoid getting glassed while standing, simply because you can be more mobile, so you have a better chance of avoiding it if you notice it. It won't prevent someone from glassing you from behind, of course - there are no magic techniques for that. That said, I'm not sure there's a huge difference in exposure to glassing, since it would take more effort to glass someone at your feet than to simply kick them.


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## Gerry Seymour

oaktree said:


> Not necessarily, it really depends on the circumstances, a man who is a bodybuilder vs a crippled elderly man with a pace maker it may be justified self defense.
> A lot of factors come into play, personally no matter what if you fight there is a chance of trial even no weapons, but we are talking about reality here, and your opponent may or may not intentionally try to kill you but you have no idea knowing that lots of people get killed by slams and weapons why risk it, for me I have to make it home don't care what I have to do to be able to do that. So about reality are you prepare to stab, bite hit a guy with a brick to get home because he might be.


Yeah, now you're trying to justify it. You referred to someone trying to take you down by the leg, and you stabbing them. Unless you are a crippled elderly man with a pacemaker, I'm not sure why you even mentioned him.

I'll readily stab someone if I need to, but not for trying to do a single-leg takedown in a bar, unless they are being VERY violent in a way that makes a higher threat clear. Your original statement took a takedown to a deadly response without any mitigating circumstances being present.


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## Paul_D

drop bear said:


> Of course it is defensible. because you just claim the umbrella of "self defence"


Maybe in your country, but not in the UK.


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## drop bear

Paul_D said:


> Maybe in your country, but not in the UK.



So if i gnp,ed a terrorist with a backpack bomb. 

That would not be reasonable force in a seld defense situation?


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## punisher73

Steve said:


> I think this shift is very common.   Its a matter of strategy.
> 
> Every mma fighter learns take down defense and all the rest.  Some are just better at it than others.  And because if how they train, the guys who can't do it well know it.



Agree, most people talk about Chuck Liddell as an example of how great stand up is (during his reign as champ).  What allowed him to be such a great striker was being a collegiate wrestler and knowing "how" the takedown works and how it is initiated.  He then could use his takedown defense to keep the fight standing where he preferred, or if taken down to be able to get back up because he understood positioning etc.

Even if self-defense is your focus, you need to know takedown defense and how to get back up quickly.  Working almost 20 years in LE/Corrections and I can tell you that MANY "stand up" fighters with no grappling experience will still tie up and fall on the ground and then roll around until one happens to get into mount.  Having that basic knowledge of 1) How to fall safely and not get hurt 2) Positional escapes and transitions 3) Getting back up to your feet.

Not to mention some of the dumb things I have seen "pure strikers" teach that would get them seriously hurt from someone with even a little bit of BJJ training.  For example, I have seen them teaching if someone has them mounted, to use a heel palm to their chin and push their head back so they can't strike.  For the pure TMA's, I have seen this taught as well using the vicious spearhand to the throat to do the same thing.  Only problem is that one of the FIRST submissions that people learn is when they have mount is how to armbar someone who extends their hand like that.


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