# Self-Confidence and Chi Sao



## wingchun100 (May 26, 2017)

During one of my many epiphanies lately, I was talking with Sifu about what I can do to improve my Chi Sao game. One of the things he said was, "Move with conviction." In my mind, I translated that to mean, "Be confident that your tools will strike."

Here's something else I realized though: even if they don't strike, then you need to be able to say to yourself, "Okay, well...that didn't work. Try something else." After all, aren't there several memes floating around the internet that say things like, "It's not how many times you get knocked down; it's how many times you get back up?" 

I do feel this is true though. When a confident person "fails" at something, they say, "What can work next time?" A non-confident person says, "I failed. I suck. I'll never amount to anything."

What the non-confident person doesn't realize is that, in life, we will actually fail more than we succeed. How many times were Edison's experiments a bust before he invented the lightbulb? But once he got it right...well, that was it! He was done! However, if you play the numbers game, then it SEEMS like he was a failure because he failed a bunch of times, but succeeded only once.

So at first I said to myself, "Well, I need to do chi sao more often. Then I will be more confident in my ability and start to realize that I DO know what I'm doing. I mean, Sifu already tells me I do have good hands and good skill."

That's when it hit me: Sifu is not the first person to tell me I have good skill. But it doesn't matter. By that I don't mean I don't care what he says. What I mean is: the whole flippin' WORLD could tell me I am good at chi sao and it wouldn't matter.

I need to know it INSIDE.

Those of you who have read other threads of mine may know this, but I am going to restate it here: this is a common issue throughout all parts of my life, not just chi sao. Self-esteem. Self-confidence. Whatever you want to call it, I've always had a problem with it. But now I am working on it. Slowly but surely. And I can't explain why, but for some reason I feel there is a breakthrough on the horizon.

So the truth is not "doing more chi sao will make me more confident." Rather, it's that being more confident will make me better at chi sao, not to mention countless other things.

Hehe...maybe I should have posted this in Philosophy or Health, but oh well. It's something worth sharing no matter which board it technically belongs on.

And I can say that...with confidence.


----------



## mograph (May 26, 2017)

I think we need to focus less on our mental state and more on just _doing what needs to be done._

Do you know, leaving the mind out of it, what "moving with conviction" _feels_ like from a biomechanical point of view?
Don't worry about doing it "right." Do what you know, use what you have. Use your senses to tell you how it feels. Not right or wrong, but .. smooth? Relaxed? Loose? Does it have mass behind it? Does it feel calm and natural or unstable and uncertain? Do what you know, use what you have, and Sifu will correct you.

Don't worry about having the right mindset -- fist goes here. Body goes here. Smooth it out. Feel the ground. Polish it. Try again.

You already know that you can do some Wing Chun, so you _belong_ in the room.
Sifu gave you advice, so he thinks you can handle it.
So you belong there just as much as anybody else does.
You have permission to practice.
Give yourself permission to make mistakes. They're a necessary part of any growth.

You might think there are two states of self regard: "Bad me" (not confident) or "good me" (confident).
There's a third one, and that's _"let's get to work."_
You see? There was no "me" there in the process. You just do what needs to be done: the punch, the kick, the movement.

People with true confidence don't think they're great; _they just do stuff. _
They accept that they are involved in a process, and they do not judge themselves as below-par if the product isn't optimal, nor do they judge themselves as good/great/accepted if the process is working well. They evaluate the process (the practice) and the product (the move); _not their self._

They just practice. Refine and repeat.


----------



## wingchun100 (May 26, 2017)

mograph said:


> I think we need to focus less on our mental state and more on just _doing what needs to be done._
> 
> Do you know, leaving the mind out of it, what "moving with conviction" _feels_ like from a biomechanical point of view?
> Don't worry about doing it "right." Do what you know, use what you have. Use your senses to tell you how it feels. Not right or wrong, but .. smooth? Relaxed? Loose? Does it have mass behind it? Does it feel calm and natural or unstable and uncertain? Do what you know, use what you have, and Sifu will correct you.
> ...



I agree on some levels. However, I do think if confident people have a moment where they sit down and reflect, they DO think they are great. Or if that would be crossing over into arrogant, they at least think, "I'm pretty good."

As for me, this is the part of the process where I find myself. Much like when you train your reflexes, I need to train my MIND, my way of thinking, to reach that state. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.


----------



## geezer (May 26, 2017)

mograph said:


> ...People with true confidence don't think they're great; _they just do stuff._
> They accept that they are involved in a process, and they do not judge themselves as below-par if the product isn't optimal, nor do they judge themselves as good/great/accepted if the process is working well. They evaluate the process (the practice) and the product (the move); _not their self. _They just practice. Refine and repeat.



I agree with this. In fact, it brings to mind something I'm dealing with at the moment.

I teach a small group ...just a handful, so I know each student well. One of my intermediate students has _exactly _this problem of confidence. On a good day, his chi-sau isn't bad at all for his level. But he is less experienced than most of the other students doing chi-sau, so he feels inferior. Even when working with me, he whines, "Sifu, I've been working at this for a couple of years and I _still _can't beat you. I don't know what's the matter with me!" I respond along the lines of, "Look I've been working at WC since 1979 and if I can't best you at chi-sau, _what the heck are you paying me for!!! _Understand that it's hard, and have some _patience."_

He cannot accept that learning these skills takes most of us _a long time,_ and consequently he gets so frustrated and angry that sometimes he has to stop training and sit off to the side for a while. If this guy can't get over his unrealistic expectations, he will never succeed. The rest of the group just accept that chi-sau can be difficult, so they train, and gradually they get better.


----------



## drop bear (May 26, 2017)

It comes back to being prepared to loose.  In training especially, people are scared to take risks for fear of the consequences. The confidence comes in making that leap fearlessly.

Grappling is very common for this because to advance position you often have to risk loosing position.

Loosing position means either looking like a fool or being underneath a fat sweaty guy.  Or both.


----------



## mograph (May 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree on some levels. However, I do think if confident people have a moment where they sit down and reflect, they DO think they are great. Or if that would be crossing over into arrogant, they at least think, "I'm pretty good."


Sorry, nope. We think, "I can do this" after some training, and seeing evidence that we can do this. There's a difference.


wingchun100 said:


> As for me, this is the part of the process where I find myself. Much like when you train your reflexes, I need to train my MIND, my way of thinking, to reach that state. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.


Sorry, you're wrong by focusing on your mind like that. You're looking in the wrong place. I spent years thinking that way. Only by focusing on the training, and not on myself or my mental paradigms, have I been able to achieve a level of calm confidence. I learn something and it becomes the new normal. I remember it, but keep training. At no time do I think "I'm pretty good," because I don't need to hear that or think that. Also, if I were to think that, it would feel bad to notice the areas where I need work. "Oh, maybe I'm not as good as I thought."

Instead, I might think "my follow step feels okay. But my fist might need work. Is it at my hip or too far back? Let's try a few." I focus on the training, not my self-esteem. This focus also makes it more likely that Sifu would correct me, because I look more focused, and I'd look more receptive to criticism because I wouldn't take it personally.

But I and others can only show you the door, as they say.


----------



## wingchun100 (May 27, 2017)

mograph said:


> Sorry, nope. We think, "I can do this" after some training, and seeing evidence that we can do this. There's a difference.
> Sorry, you're wrong by focusing on your mind like that. You're looking in the wrong place. I spent years thinking that way. Only by focusing on the training, and not on myself or my mental paradigms, have I been able to achieve a level of calm confidence. I learn something and it becomes the new normal. I remember it, but keep training. At no time do I think "I'm pretty good," because I don't need to hear that or think that. Also, if I were to think that, it would feel bad to notice the areas where I need work. "Oh, maybe I'm not as good as I thought."
> 
> Instead, I might think "my follow step feels okay. But my fist might need work. Is it at my hip or too far back? Let's try a few." I focus on the training, not my self-esteem. This focus also makes it more likely that Sifu would correct me, because I look more focused, and I'd look more receptive to criticism because I wouldn't take it personally.
> ...



Maybe that is how you train, think, and feel, but that doesn't mean it's my path. And just because you can show someone to a door doesn't mean that is the one they should walk through. You seem to be making an assumption that there is only one "door," in other words, one gateway to the ultimate truth that should be universal to all. I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

Poor self-esteem means you will do EVERYTHING poorly. You will never think you are good enough, even if you had Ip Man himself saying your chi sao was good. I've lived with this all my life, so no...I'm not "wrong" in my approach. I'm not "wrong" to say that, outside of training, people like me need to do things to improve their confidence/self-esteem. 

And to respond to one thing you said...how if you thought you were pretty good, but then would say "I'm not as good as I thought," how is that confidence? Confident people would simply recognize and accept an area where they aren't good. Like if you had a confident physicist who said, "I am awesome at physics, but I could not write a poem to save my life...and that's okay."

It might sound like Stewart Smalley from SNL, but it's true.


----------



## wingchun100 (May 27, 2017)

mograph said:


> I think we need to focus less on our mental state and more on just _doing what needs to be done._



PS: When a person suffers from low self-esteem/depression/anxiety/whatever you want to call it, they CANNOT focus on "what needs to be done." That is the nature of those issues...the current that runs through whatever they try to do in life. Whatever it is they are doing, they never feel like they are good enough at it, no matter how many external sources of validation say otherwise.

To be fair, I guess that we could look at it as what needs to be done is the work in regards to those underlying concerns, because once they are resolved, everything else in life will follow suit.


----------



## mograph (May 27, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> And to respond to one thing you said...how if you thought you were pretty good, but then would say "I'm not as good as I thought," how is that confidence?


That was my point: it was _not_ confidence. Saying "I'm pretty good" is not confidence, because sooner or later, if you continued to train, a flaw would appear and that world view would fail. This is why many people reach a plateau at some things: they don't want to change their belief, in the face of a less-than optimal performance, that they're not as good as they think.
No, what works is focusing on _what needs to be done_, not on our self-esteem, which is a subjective and illusory evaluation, subject to confirmation bias.


wingchun100 said:


> Maybe that is how you train, think, and feel, but that doesn't mean it's my path. And just because you can show someone to a door doesn't mean that is the one they should walk through. You seem to be making an assumption that there is only one "door," in other words, one gateway to the ultimate truth that should be universal to all. I'm sorry, but that's just not true.


Mmhn, nope. I said in my post that I had suffered from low self-confidence, didn't I? As long as I focused on my "self," this thing that I had made up and nurtured, I didn't get anywhere. I swung between "I'm the sh*t," and "I am sh*t." Or, people could praise me, and I wouldn't believe them. But, if I focus on my work, or my training, that goes away. I don't change the value of my "self" based on how smoothly my fist moves -- I evaluate the action, not myself. And I accept that it is a process.
In short, my "door" advice was not a one-size-fits-all or ultimate truth, it was one meant especially for _you_.


> Poor self-esteem means you will do EVERYTHING poorly.


No, it means that you _think_ you will do everything poorly. Language is important, yes? I realize you said used "think" below, but the fact that you wrote it here says something.


> You will never think you are good enough, even if you had Ip Man himself saying your chi sao was good. I've lived with this all my life, so no...I'm not "wrong" in my approach. I'm not "wrong" to say that, outside of training, people like me need to do things to improve their confidence/self-esteem.


Why do you need to improve your confidence/self-esteem in order to train? Just train. Focus _outside_ this construct you have of your "self." Focus on process and product without letting your performance affect yourself. It seems clear that every time you evaluate your performance, you attach an evaluation of your self-construct to it. Learn to control your thoughts and focus on what you are doing. Try meditation. Try mindfulness practice.


> And to respond to one thing you said...how if you thought you were pretty good, but then would say "I'm not as good as I thought," how is that confidence? Confident people would simply recognize and accept an area where they aren't good. Like if you had a confident physicist who said, "I am awesome at physics, but I could not write a poem to save my life...and that's okay."



You're mixing two views there: the "awesome" is an evaluation of self, while the "poem" is a (colourful) description of observed behaviour and an evaluation of the poems (product), not the self. Be careful. It's only about the self if you want it to be so. A confident physicist could say that he couldn't write a good poem but would also say things like "that paper got a good reception at the conference." "I'm grateful for tenure." "My research funding is going well." "That book was rather successful." Do you see? Evaluations not of _self_, but of _process_ and _product_. Remember when I mentioned process and product?

By the way, I wouldn't conflate low self-esteem, depression and anxiety, as those are _specific_ constructs referring to specific attitudes and behaviors. However, if you think you suffer from depression and/or anxiety, you might want to get a professional diagnosis so you can proceed along a course of treatment.

One thing you might want to reflect on is how strongly you are resisting my advice. I suggest that you _are_ confident in one area at least: you _want_ to see yourself a particular way, and you will defend that view with vigor, as you have shown here. I suggest you turn that certainty toward your training.

In the end, I'm trying to help you. Good luck.


----------



## Phobius (May 30, 2017)

I both agree and like this message.

I believe many should take this to heart. There are no confident people, just people knowing exactly what to do and others admiring them for being confident. What we all need to do is try to make every day slightly better than the last. We are not good, we are just better. Better is far more than being good, because better is improving. Good is not changing.


----------



## Martial D (May 30, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> During one of my many epiphanies lately, I was talking with Sifu about what I can do to improve my Chi Sao game. One of the things he said was, "Move with conviction." In my mind, I translated that to mean, "Be confident that your tools will strike."
> 
> Here's something else I realized though: even if they don't strike, then you need to be able to say to yourself, "Okay, well...that didn't work. Try something else." After all, aren't there several memes floating around the internet that say things like, "It's not how many times you get knocked down; it's how many times you get back up?"
> 
> ...


It's about hitting the zone man. You'll know you're there when it seems like your movements are happening though you, rather than you willing them to happen. It's like you are observing yourself. This is as true of chi sau as it is of video gaming, playing sports, many other things.

Instead of focusing on self confidence, try forgetting yourself altogether.


----------



## Cephalopod (May 30, 2017)

The problem with linking your self confidence on any level to your chi-sao ability is that if you are not seeing the big picture, it can mess with your head.

If you frequently play chess with an opponent who has a significant skill advantage on you, get accustomed to losing. Because you will lose. Every time. Over and over. I have been there. There is no element of luck in the game so unless you have a troope of scantily clad Brazilian samba dancers* right behind you, you lose.

* This attempt at humor, though weak, is certified non-sexist. It can work for both genders. So...Ha! 

The consistent pattern of losing tells a part of your mind that, frankly, you suck at the game. It's not easy to observe that, through each game, your skills are slowly improving.

And so it is with chi-sao. I've been practicing nearly a decade with my friend and sihing. He could wipe the floor with me 9 years ago and guess what...he wiped the floor with me last weekend.

I might be tempted to believe that I haven't improved that much or that he has some natural attributes that prevent me from being his equal. But it couldn't be further from the truth. My skill has improved immensely (I'm not being immodest, I just was _really_ bad in my early years ), it just that he has improved as well. Like we are on a boat in a lake, me sitting on the deck and him on the cabin top. From my perspective I haven't moved at all with respect to him but all those years of chi-sao have poured a whole lot of water into the lake and we have both gone up a great deal.

Of course this phenomenon holds true in reverse for students that are junior to me and with whom I have trained for several years.

All this can make the self-assessment of your skills, and the development thereof, inaccurate and subject to confirmation bias like Mograph pointed out. Definitely underlines the necessity of training with those from outside of your school.


----------



## wingchun100 (May 31, 2017)

Cephalopod said:


> The problem with linking your self confidence on any level to your chi-sao ability is that if you are not seeing the big picture, it can mess with your head.
> 
> If you frequently play chess with an opponent who has a significant skill advantage on you, get accustomed to losing. Because you will lose. Every time. Over and over. I have been there. There is no element of luck in the game so unless you have a troope of scantily clad Brazilian samba dancers* right behind you, you lose.
> 
> ...



Again, I must disagree that there is a problem with linking self-confidence to chi sao. As I said earlier, there is more failure in life than success. Think of how many times a scientist might fail at a given experiment before he succeeds. The confidence comes into it when I say to myself, "Sometimes my chi sao partners might mop the floors with me, but it doesn't mean I'm not getting better. Train more, and I will return the favor someday."

Dominating in chi sao is not what builds the confidence because, as you said, if I couldn't land a single attack, then I would feel like crap. The confidence comes first...not just in Wing Chun, but in GENERAL. In LIFE as a whole. THAT is the big picture.


----------



## drop bear (May 31, 2017)

Cephalopod said:


> The problem with linking your self confidence on any level to your chi-sao ability is that if you are not seeing the big picture, it can mess with your head.
> 
> If you frequently play chess with an opponent who has a significant skill advantage on you, get accustomed to losing. Because you will lose. Every time. Over and over. I have been there. There is no element of luck in the game so unless you have a troope of scantily clad Brazilian samba dancers* right behind you, you lose.
> 
> ...



Yeah.  But you have to apply your technique with confidence it will work or you are not really applying your technique.

Especially important if they are better than you.


----------



## DanT (May 31, 2017)

The way I was taught Chi Sao is to roll slowly... like how a clock ticks. Tick you're in bong, tock you're in tan. Nice and smooth and slow. Then when you execute a technique: Jik Jeong, Gum Da, Lap Da, Tan Da, Bong Da, etc, you EXPLODE into the position, and then stop the attack 1 cm away from the opponent. Eventually you continue into other techniques to follow up etc. The lead technique has to explode into position with zero telegraphing.


----------



## geezer (May 31, 2017)

DanT said:


> The way I was taught Chi Sao is to roll slowly... like how a clock ticks. Tick you're in bong, tock you're in tan. Nice and smooth and slow. Then when you execute a technique: Jik Jeong, Gum Da, Lap Da, Tan Da, Bong Da, etc, you EXPLODE into the position, and then stop the attack 1 cm away from the opponent. Eventually you continue into other techniques to follow up etc. The lead technique has to explode into position with zero telegraphing.



I agree about the slow roll and the explosive, non-telegraphic attack, but we _always _make contact. We control our force at the surface, but always make contact. Chi sau is taught through sensation  ...not just the sensation of slipping over your partner's bridge, but by the impact and pressure of the attack itself, which disrupts your partner's center and sets up the next move.

I also like emphasizing angle and position over speed. Sometimes if you set up an attack right, you don't have to move like lightening. You can attack at a very modest speed, your partner will feel and see it coming, and yet is powerless to stop it. When I can pull that off I feel a surge of evil glee!


----------



## DanT (Jun 1, 2017)

geezer said:


> I agree about the slow roll and the explosive, non-telegraphic attack, but we _always _make contact. We control our force at the surface, but always make contact. Chi sau is taught through sensation  ...not just the sensation of slipping over your partner's bridge, but by the impact and pressure of the attack itself, which disrupts your partner's center and sets up the next move.
> 
> I also like emphasizing angle and position over speed. Sometimes if you set up an attack right, you don't have to move like lightening. You can attack at a very modest speed, your partner will feel and see it coming, and yet is powerless to stop it. When I can pull that off I feel a surge of evil glee!


I agree, as students advance they start tapping and hitting each other a bit in order to flow to the next technique. But for beginners I don't want them to be jumpy and I also want to teach them control. For beginners I only let them do lead techniques anyways.

As for being able to attack at modest speed and with little power, I get it because I'm able to do it, but I'd prefer to use that opportunity to work on my power and speed as well. Kill 2 birds with one stone. So I'll occasionally do a technique slowly and make people laugh because I'll still get a clean hit, but I prefer to go fast and powerful so that I'm working on my power and speed.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> During one of my many epiphanies lately, I was talking with Sifu about what I can do to improve my Chi Sao game. One of the things he said was, "Move with conviction." In my mind, I translated that to mean, "Be confident that your tools will strike."
> 
> Here's something else I realized though: even if they don't strike, then you need to be able to say to yourself, "Okay, well...that didn't work. Try something else." After all, aren't there several memes floating around the internet that say things like, "It's not how many times you get knocked down; it's how many times you get back up?"
> 
> ...


There is much truth in this, Steve. A lack of confidence in your technique will probably cause you to under-commit, hesitate, and be more stiff (or, oddly, over-relaxed and limp). Just as over-confidence in a technique can cause over-commitment, rash entry, and either over-use of power or a lack of real power in the movement (often seen in blocks that are too soft).

Interestingly, a lack of confidence and a lack of skepticism can produce some of the same results: a dogmatic view that the technique is "right", regardless of results. Both can lead to a failed technique being seen as "there's nothing wrong with the technique - it must be me". There are certainly times when the technician is the problem, but there are also times there's something wrong with the technique, itself (it may simply be inappropriate for the situation, or it may be a technique without a strong fundamental base).

Improving your own confidence will help in many areas of life  - as I'm sure you are aware, by some of the comments you've made lately. And it will certainly improve your technique. It will likely also improve your understanding of WC, as you'll be more willing to examine it, looking for the strengths and weaknesses (all arts/styles have them), and deciding how to address each.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

mograph said:


> I think we need to focus less on our mental state and more on just _doing what needs to be done._
> 
> Do you know, leaving the mind out of it, what "moving with conviction" _feels_ like from a biomechanical point of view?
> Don't worry about doing it "right." Do what you know, use what you have. Use your senses to tell you how it feels. Not right or wrong, but .. smooth? Relaxed? Loose? Does it have mass behind it? Does it feel calm and natural or unstable and uncertain? Do what you know, use what you have, and Sifu will correct you.
> ...


Actually, there's a lot of evidence that state of mind affects physical ability. Sports psychologists (and great athletes) have known this for a very long time. What you're proposing is that someone should "just do it", and this can have effect over time. However, it's not a magic pill that quickly changes confidence. What it does do is set someone on the road of accomplishment (as they see themselves improving), which has an effect on confidence. So, though you seem to be countering Steve's OP, you're actually saying the same thing, and actually recommending an approach.

For Steve: To that point, one of the things to consider is how your movement affects your psychology. There's burgeoning evidence that our physiology has a more profound effect upon our psychology than previously thought. So, moving with conviction can actually improve your confidence. Here's my recommendation to build on what Mograph started here: pick something specific to work on (perhaps one segment of a form, or a specific combination) and work on _looking_ more confident in it. Look at how your instructor performs it. Look for a video of someone you think looks extremely confident (actually that - not just someone who doesn't look timid) to you while doing that thing. Now figure out what it is that makes them look so confident to you, and work to look that way by emulating whatever it is. Don't worry if it feels odd (it probably should). Just do it that way, and focus on feeling what it feels like to move with that kind of confident motion. Imagine being that confident as you practice it. Become an expert at doing that one small segment. As you do it, remember that there's always going to be a way to improve even this thing you're becoming expert at, and you'd love for someone to help you do this thing even better. "Corrections" just improve your expertise.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> I agree on some levels. However, I do think if confident people have a moment where they sit down and reflect, they DO think they are great. Or if that would be crossing over into arrogant, they at least think, "I'm pretty good."
> 
> As for me, this is the part of the process where I find myself. Much like when you train your reflexes, I need to train my MIND, my way of thinking, to reach that state. I'm getting there, slowly but surely.


I don't think most people with real confidence think that much about it. That self-consciousness is part and parcel of your confidence issues. There are areas I'm quite confident in. In most of them, if I stop to think about them, I know I've got some skill, but am at least as much aware of the things I could still improve. The areas where I have confidence issues are where I think more about whether I'm good or not.

Those who actually often think about how good they are (and come to the conclusion that they are VERY good) are likely not as good as they think they are.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> It comes back to being prepared to loose.  In training especially, people are scared to take risks for fear of the consequences. The confidence comes in making that leap fearlessly.
> 
> Grappling is very common for this because to advance position you often have to risk loosing position.
> 
> Loosing position means either looking like a fool or being underneath a fat sweaty guy.  Or both.


I agree with this. In all areas of MA, real confidence tends to come from the experience of losing and surviving. From knowing you're actually challenging your skills, putting them to the test, and re-proving them as you do so. To do that, you have to expose yourself to the chance to lose (otherwise, you end up never really putting them to the test). And if you expose yourself to that chance enough, you're going to lose some.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Poor self-esteem means you will do EVERYTHING poorly.


Actually, as you correctly elaborated in this same post, poor self-esteem means you will _*think*_ you do EVERYTHING poorly.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, as you correctly elaborated in this same post, poor self-esteem means you will _*think*_ you do EVERYTHING poorly.



Yes, and it seems to me that if you think it long enough, you will make it true...that whole "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing.

Speaking of things a person thinks, *I* think I am long overdue to break the cycle of willing my lack of skills into reality. It is happening.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

Martial D said:


> It's about hitting the zone man. You'll know you're there when it seems like your movements are happening though you, rather than you willing them to happen. It's like you are observing yourself. This is as true of chi sau as it is of video gaming, playing sports, many other things.
> 
> Instead of focusing on self confidence, try forgetting yourself altogether.


Self-consciousness (focusing on self, as Steve is pointing out he does) is actually directly related to confidence issues. For him, trying to not think about himself would be like asking you to not think about what your left leg is doing when it has fallen asleep and is numb, and you're trying to walk - it takes a supreme effort to focus attention somewhere else. Doing things that develop confidence is often the quickest path to losing that self-consciousness.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

geezer said:


> I feel a surge of evil glee!



I'm pretty sure my students would recognize the look on your face in that moment.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Yes, and it seems to me that if you think it long enough, you will make it true...that whole "self-fulfilling prophecy" thing.
> 
> Speaking of things a person thinks, *I* think I am long overdue to break the cycle of willing my lack of skills into reality. It is happening.


Interestingly, yes and no. It will hold you back from higher performance in some ways, and can cause some self-sabotage (giving up avoids the anticipated failure). But mostly, you'll just keep thinking you're doing awful, even when things are going fairly well. There's a confirmation bias issue here - any flaw confirms your belief that you suck, and your mind ignores evidence to the contrary (to avoid cognitive dissonance).


----------



## Martial D (Jun 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Self-consciousness (focusing on self, as Steve is pointing out he does) is actually directly related to confidence issues. For him, trying to not think about himself would be like asking you to not think about what your left leg is doing when it has fallen asleep and is numb, and you're trying to walk - it takes a supreme effort to focus attention somewhere else. Doing things that develop confidence is often the quickest path to losing that self-consciousness.


Yes, but it can also be a spiral down. You try so hard that every perceived failure makes you more and more self conscious and rigid.

Been there.

Sometimes it's best to just let go and BE, and from those results self confidence arises. Your milage may vary.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

Martial D said:


> Yes, but it can also be a spiral down. You try so hard that every perceived failure makes you more and more self conscious and rigid.
> 
> Been there.
> 
> Sometimes it's best to just let go and BE, and from those results self confidence arises. Your milage may vary.


It's definitely best to do so at times. Unfortunately, it's also most difficult to do at precisely those times.


----------



## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

Something I observed from watching the kids compete at BJJ tournaments is how fearless they are.  Every technique, they go for it.  And if it doesn't work, they don't get too worked up about it.

Fear is the mind killer.  The antidote is competition.  Losing in competition a lot helps you overcome a fear of losing, and success in competition helps you become confident in your skills.  Win/win.

This isn't rocket science, guys.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Interestingly, yes and no. It will hold you back from higher performance in some ways, and can cause some self-sabotage (giving up avoids the anticipated failure). But mostly, you'll just keep thinking you're doing awful, even when things are going fairly well. There's a confirmation bias issue here - any flaw confirms your belief that you suck, and your mind ignores evidence to the contrary (to avoid cognitive dissonance).



See, this is happening in all areas of my life, which is why I say repairing self-confidence will help in general, not just Wing Chun.

Example: I do something that hurts my girlfriend's feelings. Well, I am an awful, hurtful, mean person. The double whammy comes when I say, "Gee, all she does is complain about me." However, the thing is she compliments me way more than she criticizes me. And it isn't REALLY criticism. I mean, if you do something that hurts someone's feelings, then they should have the right to tell you so you can apologize and do better in the future. (The only way it would really be nitpicky is if someone is oversensitive, which she is not.)

Then the part you said about avoiding failure comes into play. If the hurtful offense is bad enough, then I might think to myself, "Geez, I am an abusive A-hole of a boyfriend. Maybe I'm just not meant to have deep, meaningful relationships with anyone." And the urge to split occurs.

Or I should say OCCURRED...past tense. But I fought against it. I fought against running and being a coward, facing down WHY I act that way and doing something about it. The same can be done regarding chi sao, regarding why I didn't get a promotion at work, regarding ANYTHING.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> Something I observed from watching the kids compete at BJJ tournaments is how fearless they are.  Every technique, they go for it.  And if it doesn't work, they don't get too worked up about it.
> 
> Fear is the mind killer.  The antidote is competition.  Losing in competition a lot helps you overcome a fear of losing, and success in competition helps you become confident in your skills.  Win/win.
> 
> This isn't rocket science, guys.



As your quote says, your opinion is just that.

The longer you have lived with a certain fear, the harder it is to overcome.

For some people it takes longer, and the task seems more daunting. I am one of those people.


----------



## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> As your quote says, your opinion is just that.
> 
> The longer you have lived with a certain fear, the harder it is to overcome.
> 
> For some people it takes longer, and the task seems more daunting. I am one of those people.


??  And how does that make any of the things I said less true?  You lost me.  I think you're reacting to things I didn't write.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> Something I observed from watching the kids compete at BJJ tournaments is how fearless they are.  Every technique, they go for it.  And if it doesn't work, they don't get too worked up about it.
> 
> Fear is the mind killer.  The antidote is competition.  Losing in competition a lot helps you overcome a fear of losing, and success in competition helps you become confident in your skills.  Win/win.
> 
> This isn't rocket science, guys.


Competition can be a powerful anodyne. It is not the only approach, nor the best approach for all folks. Someone with very low self-confidence will likely perform poorly in competition. That poor performance will not improve their confidence.


----------



## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Competition can be a powerful anodyne. It is not the only approach, nor the best approach for all folks. Someone with very low self-confidence will likely perform poorly in competition. That poor performance will not improve their confidence.


Fear of losing, fear of failure.  That's the piece.  Sorry I used a politically incorrect word. 

The key issue here is one of resilience.  Confidence isn't a trait; it is a by-product.  It's a result.  Fear is the real issue here.  The only way to overcome fear of failure is to fail and realize that failure is a necessary function of growth.  Success is validation; failure is growth.

I didn't say competition is the only, or even the best approach for all folks.  However you fail, you need to do it.

Now, competition is the only way people can gain access to some other things.  But failure is available in many ways.

And sure, it's hard.  And sure, it's harder for some than others.  And of course, the longer you live with fear of failure, the harder it will be to overcome it.  None of that changes the situation in the least.

"Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better."
~ Samuel Beckett

"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career.   I've lost almost 300 games.  26 times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot ... and missed.   I've failed over and over and over again in my life. That is why I succeed."
~ Michael Jordan

"I must not *fear*. *Fear* is the *mind*-*killer*. *Fear* is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my *fear*. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when my *fear* is gone I will turn and face *fear*'s path, and only I will remain." - Maud Dib


----------



## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> See, this is happening in all areas of my life, which is why I say repairing self-confidence will help in general, not just Wing Chun.
> 
> Example: I do something that hurts my girlfriend's feelings. Well, I am an awful, hurtful, mean person. The double whammy comes when I say, "Gee, all she does is complain about me." However, the thing is she compliments me way more than she criticizes me. And it isn't REALLY criticism. I mean, if you do something that hurts someone's feelings, then they should have the right to tell you so you can apologize and do better in the future. (The only way it would really be nitpicky is if someone is oversensitive, which she is not.)
> 
> ...


Sounds like you might consider that some people fear success as much as they fear failure.  You mention promotion, but if I recall correctly, you did get a promotion, hated it, threw your boss and your coworkers under the bus and retreated to the comfort of a job you know doesn't even occupy your entire work day.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sounds like you might consider that some people fear success as much as they fear failure.  You mention promotion, but if I recall correctly, you did get a promotion, hated it, threw your boss and your coworkers under the bus and retreated to the comfort of a job you know doesn't even occupy your entire work day.



You should follow the advice that is in your profile picture. Actually I think the problem is you try to, but you just fail. And now I promptly put thee on "ignore," kind sir. Nice knowing you.

PS: To succeed at not being a dick, try to not comment on things that you know less than half the story behind.


----------



## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

Well, that escalated quickly.  You shouldn't ask questions you aren't prepared to hear answered.  I like you well enough to tell you the truth.

As for the avatar, it's just good advice for us all.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Competition can be a powerful anodyne. It is not the only approach, nor the best approach for all folks. Someone with very low self-confidence will likely perform poorly in competition. That poor performance will not improve their confidence.



Exactly. Failure would reinforce the feelings of inadequacy. That is why I say the solution starts with having better confidence first. How you get there is another story. For some it might mean therapy and/or meds. In the case of martial arts, it might mean doing the techniques slowly at first and building speed over time. Who's to say? There is no one path to walk!


----------



## Steve (Jun 1, 2017)

wingchun100 said:


> Exactly. Failure would reinforce the feelings of inadequacy. That is why I say the solution starts with having better confidence first. How you get there is another story. For some it might mean therapy and/or meds. In the case of martial arts, it might mean doing the techniques slowly at first and building speed over time. Who's to say? There is no one path to walk!


False confidence is dangerous and fragile.  Confidence based on nothing is not helpful to anyone. 

The key is to lower the stakes of failure and reframe failure so that it is something to seek out rather than to avoid.  That can be done through therapy and/or meds.  A good therapist can help a person keep failure in perspective, and medications can certainly help manage anxiety and such.  But if one takes a pill to make one more confident, that's not good.


----------



## Buka (Jun 1, 2017)

Been afraid of some things all my life. No big whoop, it's just fear. Doing something about the...whatever....is what's important. Martial Arts training helps that immensely. 

As for false confidence - don't really know anything about that. Never allowed it in students, haven't really been exposed to it.  But _overconfidence_, probably have some of that. Fortunately, hasn't mattered in a jillion years of dealing with....whatever. Martial Arts training helps with that, too.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> Fear of losing, fear of failure.  That's the piece.  Sorry I used a politically incorrect word.
> 
> The key issue here is one of resilience.  Confidence isn't a trait; it is a by-product.  It's a result.  Fear is the real issue here.  The only way to overcome fear of failure is to fail and realize that failure is a necessary function of growth.  Success is validation; failure is growth.
> 
> ...


The quotes are good. And your points are valid. My point is simply that someone with very low confidence cannot grow it by failing, if failure (and their belief of how others perceive that) is what they fear, especially if they are to fail pretty miserably. For someone with even moderate confidence, there are many competitions where failure is pretty safe (psychologically speaking) - like from what I've seen at most BJJ, Judo, and Karate competitions. But that only works if the subject correctly perceives the outcome. If they see a failure as devastating (people think less of them, etc.), then it doesn't actually matter much how positively others respond. Their fear feeds itself.

That said, I do think competition is a great part of the process. Perhaps not the starting point for some folks. And team competition seems to be more help for folks who are struggling the most (where they can feel more protected from the exposure of loss).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> Sounds like you might consider that some people fear success as much as they fear failure.  You mention promotion, but if I recall correctly, you did get a promotion, hated it, threw your boss and your coworkers under the bus and retreated to the comfort of a job you know doesn't even occupy your entire work day.


"Threw...under the bus" is a bit over the top for you, Steve. He shared here his frustration with the environment he moved into. I've seen environments like that, and getting out of them is nearly always a good idea - even at a pay cut. Moving back to a job that's not very fulfilling is a good way to keep paying the bills while looking for something better.


----------



## Steve (Jun 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The quotes are good. And your points are valid. My point is simply that someone with very low confidence cannot grow it by failing, if failure (and their belief of how others perceive that) is what they fear, especially if they are to fail pretty miserably. For someone with even moderate confidence, there are many competitions where failure is pretty safe (psychologically speaking) - like from what I've seen at most BJJ, Judo, and Karate competitions. But that only works if the subject correctly perceives the outcome. If they see a failure as devastating (people think less of them, etc.), then it doesn't actually matter much how positively others respond. Their fear feeds itself.
> 
> That said, I do think competition is a great part of the process. Perhaps not the starting point for some folks. And team competition seems to be more help for folks who are struggling the most (where they can feel more protected from the exposure of loss).


The answer isn't to avoid failure.  First of all that's not possible.  Second, it's not healthy.  Third, I completely agree that working with a professional therapist is step 1.  Medication may help.  I've worked with a lot of people who are mentally ill and working with them when they are on or off their medication is like night and day.  However, I have never heard anyone ever suggest that false confidence is a solid way to overcome lack of confidence.  That is a disaster waiting to happen, and will more likely than not backfire and cause even more confidence issues once the illusion of confidence is shattered. 

Regarding competition, I'm not sure how many times I need to say that it was an example in my post, not the point of the post.  In this case, it's not competition that is salient.  It's failure, which happens all the time, which is the point.  kids in competition are a perfect example of resilience, which is central to this discussion.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2017)

Steve said:


> The answer isn't to avoid failure.  First of all that's not possible.  Second, it's not healthy.  Third, I completely agree that working with a professional therapist is step 1.  Medication may help.  I've worked with a lot of people who are mentally ill and working with them when they are on or off their medication is like night and day.  However, I have never heard anyone ever suggest that false confidence is a solid way to overcome lack of confidence.  That is a disaster waiting to happen, and will more likely than not backfire and cause even more confidence issues once the illusion of confidence is shattered.
> 
> Regarding competition, I'm not sure how many times I need to say that it was an example in my post, not the point of the post.  In this case, it's not competition that is salient.  It's failure, which happens all the time, which is the point.  kids in competition are a perfect example of resilience, which is central to this discussion.


It's not about false confidence. It's about finding areas where confidence can be built. And you're entirely right that failure will always be part of the experience. Effective progress typically requires finding failures that feel safe to the subject (where they have less fear of the failure and its consequences).

I wasn't trying to poke at you with the competition comment. I was just following through on the thoughts, since we'd started talking about competition. It's a useful tool, used appropriately, and bears discussion.


----------



## Steve (Jun 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Threw...under the bus" is a bit over the top for you, Steve. He shared here his frustration with the environment he moved into. I've seen environments like that, and getting out of them is nearly always a good idea - even at a pay cut. Moving back to a job that's not very fulfilling is a good way to keep paying the bills while looking for something better.


I'm sure it was the best thing for all involved.  AND, some people fear success as much as they or others fear failure.  Both, in my experience, stem from self esteem issues and lack of confidence.


----------



## Steve (Jun 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's not about false confidence. It's about finding areas where confidence can be built. And you're entirely right that failure will always be part of the experience. Effective progress typically requires finding failures that feel safe to the subject (where they have less fear of the failure and its consequences).
> 
> I wasn't trying to poke at you with the competition comment. I was just following through on the thoughts, since we'd started talking about competition. It's a useful tool, used appropriately, and bears discussion.


Yeah, but I have also been accused by a particular moderator around here of views I don't have, so I'm now a little careful about that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2017)

Steve said:


> Yeah, but I have also been accused by a particular moderator around here of views I don't have, so I'm now a little careful about that.


Understood.


----------



## wingchun100 (Jun 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "Threw...under the bus" is a bit over the top for you, Steve. He shared here his frustration with the environment he moved into. I've seen environments like that, and getting out of them is nearly always a good idea - even at a pay cut. Moving back to a job that's not very fulfilling is a good way to keep paying the bills while looking for something better.



Yes, because if I had continued and at the end they decided I was not a good fit for them, the would have marked me as "probation terminated," And that would have been a mark on my record that would be damn near impossible to escape. Much better to bail on MY terms. And not for nothing, but I took the PCO exam on April 8 (11 days before I left) that will make me eligible for positions that pay just as much.


----------



## Steve (Jun 2, 2017)

Alright.  Hold on here.  I can't indulge this level of denial.  





wingchun100 said:


> Yes, because if I had continued and at the end they decided I was not a good fit for them, the would have marked me as "probation terminated," And that would have been a mark on my record that would be damn near impossible to escape. Much better to bail on MY terms. And not for nothing, but I took the PCO exam on April 8 (11 days before I left) that will make me eligible for positions that pay just as much.


Yeah, as I recall, that's where you started.  And truly, as I said then, if you're unsuccessful in a job, you absolutely did the right thing.  Where you went totally off the rails is when you started getting into some really bad juju.  You said:





wingchun100 said:


> Oh believe me, there was no happiness to be found there...unless of course you were a pretty female. THEN the boss loved you and let you get away with murder, but if you were a 40 year old male, he would come down on you for every little mistake you made...and oddly enough, he would do it in front of the pretty female staff, no less!
> 
> I don't need to work under a douche like that.


Then I said at the time:


Steve said:


> Err...  you know you're accusing your former boss of something that is illegal.  Right?


To which you replied:





wingchun100 said:


> Yes, and I know this becaue the agency I was in actually investigated such complaints.
> 
> And in fact, I was not the original accuser. Someone else in that office said, "He wanted a female in that position, so that's probably the sticking point."


And also:


wingchun100 said:


> If they investigate discrimination complaints, I wonder who investigates them if THEY are accused of that. Must be some internal affairs kind of unit.


Whether any of that is true or not, that's entirely inappropriate.  Maybe you guys don't see that as throwing under the bus.  But, dang...  I'd feel that way. 

Now, I do want to say that, if it's true, you are saying you were being harassed by your boss, and that your coworker is complicit, and this is a very big deal!  You also suggest that your boss, being the guy who investigates allegations of harassment, is immune from investigation.  If true, holy cow!!!   I'm sure that, even in New York, you guys have some appropriate means for filing your complaint.  It really sounds like that needs further investigation, particularly if you are suggesting that your boss created a situation where you were being unfairly treated If not true, or even if loosely based on reality, but exaggerated, once again, holy cow.   And this is still not the right way to do this. 

So, let's not pretend you didn't say the things above.  If you want to reframe them now, fine.  But you went way beyond "not a good fit."


----------

