# "Jui Jitsu just teaches you not to hurt your opponent"



## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2015)

Demian Maia admits he needs more punches and elbows Jiu-jitsu teaches you not to hurt your opponent - MMA Fighting

Interesting comment, opinions anyone?


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## Jenna (Mar 24, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Demian Maia admits he needs more punches and elbows Jiu-jitsu teaches you not to hurt your opponent - MMA Fighting
> 
> Interesting comment, opinions anyone?


Very interesting thank you Tez.. You have to admire his heart and integrity towards his JJ.. pity for him there is a conflict in his game  Jx


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## Mephisto (Mar 24, 2015)

He was offering up a critique of his performance and he admitted he could have improved in some areas. He also admitted that bjj doesn't have all the answers, which is no surprise to anyone. He also referred to bjj as the best martial art, I'd agree it's one of the best but "best" is a subjective term. A kick boxer could easily say that they need to work on their ground game too. I don't think what he says is anything surprising.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2015)

I see statements like this, and I think "don't all arts teach you not to hurt your opponent more than absolutely necessary?"


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## Tez3 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I see statements like this, and I think "don't all arts teach you not to hurt your opponent more than absolutely necessary?"




True, and in MMA the idea is not to destroy your opponent but to win the competition despite what some think it's not a death match!


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## drop bear (Mar 24, 2015)

For us anyway. We train to hit,train to hurt them in every way we can. If there is an option that hurts them and an option that doesn't. We are hurting them.

I do know of guys that have won with a top side submission. But that is usually from mount,punching them untill they give up,roll over and allow a rear naked choke..


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## Hanzou (Mar 24, 2015)

He's right. Unlike other arts that teach you to bash someone's face in, Bjj teaches you to subdue someone by bringing them down, and putting them to sleep. My instructor is found of saying that it's the perfect art to take care of your drunk uncle.


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## Drose427 (Mar 24, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I see statements like this, and I think "don't all arts teach you not to hurt your opponent more than absolutely necessary?"



After hearing my Grandmaster talk about SD Id say necessary can be relative(regardless of what art you use)..My sahbumnims instructor advocates staying calm, walking away, and de-escalation, whereas our GM will blatantly tell you to put them down, striking first sometimes, because "they should not be acting that way"

Obviously neither are curbstomping folks who are down, but its weird to think about the different levels of aggression and defining whats necessary.



Hanzou said:


> He's right. Unlike other arts that teach you to bash someone's face in, Bjj teaches you to subdue someone by bringing them down, and putting them to sleep. My instructor is found of saying that it's the perfect art to take care of your drunk uncle.



Well other arts still have a considerable amount of chokes and locks that dont require you to beat some to apply. We can still subdue and bring them down, i really wouldnt say BJJ is different for doing it  simply because grappling is its focus

I also wouldnt say BJJ isnt about hurting people....Theres still a good degree of pain in most techs. Even in chokes, those few seconds before you pass out if you dont tap feel like hell.

If you arent applying torque to harm me, im not gonna just lay there in the submission. If you dont lock it up, I could fight out of it. It happens all the time

Dont get me wrong, I understand your point. Where a boxer has to throw a punch, a grappler can usually take control and restrain someone. But I wouldnt go as far to say that it teaches you to not hurt someone at all, especially when you can see clear pain on people face...


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## Hanzou (Mar 24, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Well other arts still have a considerable amount of chokes and locks that dont require you to beat some to apply. We can still subdue and bring them down, i really wouldnt say BJJ is different for doing it  simply because grappling is its focus
> 
> I also wouldnt say BJJ isnt about hurting people....Theres still a good degree of pain in most techs. Even in chokes, those few seconds before you pass out if you dont tap feel like hell.
> 
> ...



Well I'm not saying that Bjj is incapable of hurting someone, there are joint and limb breaks within the system after all. However, I was always sort of taught that the paramount submissions in the art is the choke, since its the most humane, and causes the least harm. Limb and joint locations are there in case you can't get the choke, and need to disable someone.

However, if you compare Bjj to a striking style that teaches you to smash someone's windpipe with a knife-hand strike, smash a nose with a palm-heel strike, scoop someone's eyes out with a gouge, grab and twist someone's groin, or crush a rib with a stamping kick while someone is down, I would say that Bjj is far more gentle and humane.


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## Hanzou (Mar 24, 2015)

I think Maia says it better than me;



> "I’m a jiu-jitsu guy and that’s my root. I will always go for the submission instead of hurting my opponent. That’s why I love jiu-jitsu, this is the best martial art in the world. It’s an art that seeks the peace, to dominate your opponent.



I largely agree.


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## K-man (Mar 24, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> However, if you compare Bjj to a striking style that teaches you to smash someone's windpipe with a knife-hand strike, smash a nose with a palm-heel strike, scoop someone's eyes out with a gouge, grab and twist someone's groin, or crush a rib with a stamping kick while someone is down, I would say that Bjj is far more gentle and humane.


The problem is that the more 'humane' styles take longer to learn. Your journey in BJJ has been long as has my Aikido. In Krav we teach to get in and hit hard but once the guys have those skills we start teaching them restraints. Then, as always, you have the choice of techniques to apply as is appropriate. Mind you, if I'm being seriously attacked by several guys you can forget humane.


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## Drose427 (Mar 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> The problem is that the more 'humane' styles take longer to learn. Your journey in BJJ has been long as has my Aikido. In Krav we teach to get in and hit hard but once the guys have those skills we start teaching them restraints. Then, as always, you have the choice of techniques to apply as is appropriate. Mind you, if I'm being seriously attacked by several guys you can forget humane.



This is actually a Pretty good point

Ive never seen or heard of a real BJJ white belt submitting guys like a gracie....i wonder how the early days of UFC would have went if Royce wasnt already so highly ranked in BJJ.

Ive only ever met one Aikido practitioner in my life, he threw us and a few MT guys around and controlled us like it was nothing...But he had been training for 20 some years,

Really makes you think abour the return on time investment of some styles. Can i apply this now or do i need considerablly more time and work?


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## Hanzou (Mar 24, 2015)

K-man said:


> The problem is that the more 'humane' styles take longer to learn. Your journey in BJJ has been long as has my Aikido. In Krav we teach to get in and hit hard but once the guys have those skills we start teaching them restraints. Then, as always, you have the choice of techniques to apply as is appropriate. Mind you, if I'm being seriously attacked by several guys you can forget humane.




To be fair, you've stated that it took you 8 years just to make techniques work for you in Aikido. I had Bij techniques working for me while I was still a white belt. Many Gracie Bij schools say/advertise that a Bij blue belt should be proficient enough to take apart an unskilled opponent in a street fight. 

In the end, I would say that Bjj has a much more forgiving learning curve than Aikido.


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## Buka (Mar 24, 2015)

I don't usually enjoy Damien's matches. Sometimes, I'd rather watch paint dry. I don't mean that as a critique of his skills, the man is rock solid skilled - and then some.

But as for what he said, I love it. And I agree with it one hundred percent.


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## K-man (Mar 24, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> To be fair, you've stated that it took you 8 years just to make techniques work for you in Aikido. I had Bij techniques working for me while I was still a white belt. Many Gracie Bij schools say/advertise that a Bij blue belt should be proficient enough to take apart an unskilled opponent in a street fight.
> 
> In the end, I would say that Bjj has a much more forgiving learning curve than Aikido.


I had most things in Aikido working for me years earlier as well. It took me over seven years to get the last technique to work, without using strength, against trained people. Using strength, sure the techniques worked against most untrained people much sooner.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

For us if there is an opportunity to throw elbows or apply submissions we throw elbows. This is from a guys first fight to our coaches recent win at nitro.
(ok not generally elbows on a first fight. Probably punching because most don't fight elbows first off)

We put guys from the street into the ring in 12 weeks.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 25, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> I see statements like this, and I think "don't all arts teach you not to hurt your opponent more than absolutely necessary?"



Ha, mate, you really need to see some of the stuff in Koryu… some of it's simply outright bloody murder! Ha!


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 25, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> However, if you compare Bjj to a striking style that teaches you to smash someone's windpipe with a knife-hand strike, smash a nose with a palm-heel strike, scoop someone's eyes out with a gouge, grab and twist someone's groin, or crush a rib with a stamping kick while someone is down.



Just as a grappling student has the option to be gentile or to choke someone to death or break an arm a striking style has gentler options as well. From blocking a punch and applying an arm bar to tickling a drunken friend under the armpits to make him let you go.



Hanzou said:


> I would say that Bjj is far more gentle and humane.



In a self defense situation your safety is your number one priority. Your attacker's safety is much lower down on the list. If people want to be safe then they shouldn't attack other people.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 25, 2015)

There is indeed an aesthetic or ideal within a large segment of the BJJ community that the highest form of the art is to be able to submit someone without injuring them and that strikes are only for setting up those submissions.

This ideal is not universal. You can watch old Mario Sperry instructional videos to see him demonstrating how to use positional dominance to punish an opponent with strikes. In general, I think folks who trained under Carlson Gracie were more likely to embrace the use of strikes than the folks who trained under Helio.

The idea of "submitting" someone without hurting them is primarily about sport competition. In a self-defense situation, there is no tapping out. If you have to apply a joint lock, you will need to break the opponent's arm or leg and move on. You might be able to choke someone out without harm or (in a less serious situation) pin them until they calm down, but you can't count on that.


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## Hanzou (Mar 25, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Just as a grappling student has the option to be gentile or to choke someone to death or break an arm a striking style has gentler options as well. From blocking a punch and applying an arm bar to tickling a drunken friend under the armpits to make him let you go.



When I think of TKD, I don't think of blocking and applying arm bars. 






I think of that.



> In a self defense situation your safety is your number one priority. Your attacker's safety is much lower down on the list. If people want to be safe then they shouldn't attack other people.



Not every self defense situation requires maximum force though, and if I choke someone unconscious, choking them to death isn't necessary.


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 25, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> When I think of TKD, I don't think of blocking and applying arm bars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then maybe you need a wider perspective? When I think of BJJ I think of two people rolling around on the floor making human pretzels but I know it is more than that.



Hanzou said:


> Not every self defense situation requires maximum force though



I believe that is what I was getting at.



Hanzou said:


> and if I choke someone unconscious, choking them to death isn't necessary.



If I knock someone out I do not need to stomp on their ribs.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The idea of "submitting" someone without hurting them is primarily about sport competition. In a self-defense situation, there is no tapping out. If you have to apply a joint lock, you will need to break the opponent's arm or leg and move on. You might be able to choke someone out without harm or (in a less serious situation) pin them until they calm down, but you can't count on that.



So you feel serious encounters that require you to break limbs are the more common threat?


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 25, 2015)

A grappler's worst nightmare.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> So you feel serious encounters that require you to break limbs are the more common threat?



Depends on your circumstances. I don't engage in monkey dance rituals and I'm not in a profession that requires me to use force and I have no qualms about walking or running away from a fight. If I'm in a position where I have to defend myself and I can't get away, then breaking limbs is probably on the table. If I'm ever in a situation where I have to restrain a violent, mentally ill family member, then hopefully I can just pin them on the ground until they run out of steam, without causing positional asphyxia.

My point was that joint locks are a major part of jiu-jitsu. If you're in a self-defense situation, you can't just let go if someone "taps."  There's no ref to keep them from attacking you again the moment you release the lock. If the circumstances don't justify breaking the limb, then you shouldn't be applying the lock in the first place.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 25, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> When I think of TKD, I don't think of blocking and applying arm bars.



That doesn't really say anything about TKD, it only says something about how weak your understanding of TKD is.


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## Sojobo (Mar 25, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, mate, you really need to see some of the stuff in Koryu… some of it's simply outright bloody murder! Ha!


Indeed, some of our stuff would leave you in a wheelchair - if you were lucky!!


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## Hanzou (Mar 25, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Then maybe you need a wider perspective? When I think of BJJ I think of two people rolling around on the floor making human pretzels but I know it is more than that.



More like two people hugging each other until someone goes to sleep, breaks a limb, or dies. However, for the most part your view would be correct.




> If I knock someone out I do not need to stomp on their ribs.



Wouldn't you need to strike them in order to knock them out? Further, what if you just knocked them down? Wouldn't you then need to perform a follow up to keep them on the ground?


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 25, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> More like two people hugging each other until someone goes to sleep, breaks a limb, or dies. However, for the most part your view would be correct./QUOTE]
> 
> Combat cuddling.
> 
> ...


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2015)

Sojobo said:


> Indeed, some of our stuff would leave you in a wheelchair - if you were lucky!!



Ha, and that's just your Sosuishi Ryu, Gary… get Steve to show you some of the Araki Ryu stuff… sheer, bloody-minded murder… gotta love it! Oh, just be cautious if he starts suggesting that he makes you a cup of tea…


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## Instructor (Mar 26, 2015)

I personally would rather recieve an epic beating with fists than have my arm rotated out of socket.  Now eye gouges and stuff like that are just terrible no matter what way you paint it. 

BJJ is a good system but it's the person doing it making the choices that decides the level of harm, not the system.  Untrained people maim and kill each other every day, no system required.


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