# When to Use Excessive Force



## Yoshiyahu (Dec 14, 2008)

I was woundering. When is a time to use Excessive force? 

Many people always say don't use your Wing Chun on people because of going to jail?

What about self defence scenarios?

When is it okay to use your art. When is okay to use all your techniques on attacker?

please share whats your opinion?

~When someone is being Jumped?

~When someone is being mugged?

~When someone is being raped?

~When you are being jumped?

~When you are being raped?

~When someone has a knife or gun?

~To protect your family?

When is it time to break knees,use chin na, break necks, stab pressure points?


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## myusername (Dec 14, 2008)

A pedantic answer to this question would be...._never_. "Excessive Force" implies that the force used was excessive, too much and not proportionate to the level of risk.

However, I think I get what you are asking here and that is what is proportionate? My view on it depends entirely on the level of threat that I feel and whether I can escape or not. My reponse to being attacked by a stroppy toddler will be different to my response to being attcked by a 6ft man weilding a baseball bat. If I feel my life or somebody else life is in danger and I am unable to leave that life threatening situation then I will do what ever is necessary to protect myself or that person which will include attacking the attacker's airway, blood supply and consciousness using what ever techniques present themselves. 

I will also try and remain aware that the level of risk can change during a confrontation. If somebody is trying to do serious damage to me and I deliver a knockout punch then the level of risk has reduced, so to then start jumping up and down on the unconscious attackers head will move my actions from proportionate to excessive pretty quickly. To remain at the proportionate end of this spectrum I personally believe that you must always be looking for the escape and as long as you flee the moment you get the chance you are pretty much covered.


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## GBlues (Dec 14, 2008)

Yup, that's the way I feel about it pretty much too. If you feel like your life, or the life of a loved one is in danger, then in my mind it's open season on ducks and somebody is either going to the hospital or to the morgue, one of the two. You can't just go around demolitioning and killing people you know.


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## Tez3 (Dec 14, 2008)

myusername said:


> A pedantic answer to this question would be...._never_. "Excessive Force" implies that the force used was excessive, too much and not proportionate to the level of risk.
> 
> However, I think I get what you are asking here and that is what is proportionate? My view on it depends entirely on the level of threat that I feel and whether I can escape or not. My reponse to being attacked by a stroppy toddler will be different to my response to being attcked by a 6ft man weilding a baseball bat. If I feel my life or somebody else life is in danger and I am unable to leave that life threatening situation then I will do what ever is necessary to protect myself or that person which will include attacking the attacker's airway, blood supply and consciousness using what ever techniques present themselves.
> 
> I will also try and remain aware that the level of risk can change during a confrontation. If somebody is trying to do serious damage to me and I deliver a knockout punch then the level of risk has reduced, so to then start jumping up and down on the unconscious attackers head will move my actions from proportionate to excessive pretty quickly. To remain at the proportionate end of this spectrum I personally believe that you must always be looking for the escape and as long as you flee the moment you get the chance you are pretty much covered.


 

Couldn't have put it better myself!! the law in our country allows for defending yourself however you have to but as you said jumping up and down on an unconcious persons head is not defending yourself!


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## Si-Je (Dec 14, 2008)

Use of "Excessive Force" it seems would be regulated by perspective.  In the grip of fear, in the moment of danger and the unknown intentions of an attacker what would be the definition of Excessive force?  
Some people are passifistic, some are more logical about these situations, some are more emotional, everyone has their own terms and boundaries for their own moral code of conduct and philosophy.

This is a term and a matter for buerocrats, lawyers, and court.

This is also a term and a matter for re-evaluation of your philosophies, beliefs, and boundaries.

Every scenario is different.  What I would deem as excessive would be totally different that someone elses views of force.

In a conflict there isn't alot of time allotted to you to decide on the spot what your going to do or not do to surivive an encounter, or even if your life is truely in danger.
Think long and hard now before it happens, meditate on it.  Because when your attacked you will respond on an animalistic level.  Whether you totally freeze up in fear, doubt, or confusion.  Or you lash out with everything you've got.
Do I want to kill someone?  Personally no, never.  But, that may be a choice that's not fully mine to make at the time of attack.  It may be the only way to live, but that's the point of learning to defend yourself (for me) is to Hopefully, give me other options.

If I can take them out of physical commission, then I don't HAVE to kill.
If I can deflect and talk my way out of the fight, then I don't have to crush a person.
If I can run off fast enough to get away, then all the better!

Simply put, do what you have to do.  Live, to debate the issue later.
Law is law, and all well and good.  But...
I'm not going to starve because the law says I should.
I'm not going to lose my family or home because the law says I don't need it.
And I'm not going to die because the law thinks I don't have the right to live.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Great Answer.

This is a great discussion. Let me turn the conversating to what I mean by excessive force?

I mean when it is okay to use Iron Fingers techniques to pierce flesh, or Iron palm to rupture someones spleen or kidneys, When it is okay to use Phoenix Fist to attack vital pressure points, When is it okay to strike someone in the adams apple with crushing crane beak?

When are Neck Breaks and Iron palm to chest okay to use?

When are more of deadly techniques of Bil Gee deem acceptable to use in Combat?




Si-Je said:


> Use of "Excessive Force" it seems would be regulated by perspective. In the grip of fear, in the moment of danger and the unknown intentions of an attacker what would be the definition of Excessive force?
> Some people are passifistic, some are more logical about these situations, some are more emotional, everyone has their own terms and boundaries for their own moral code of conduct and philosophy.
> 
> This is a term and a matter for buerocrats, lawyers, and court.
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Oh, well.... That's way past my ability and knowledge of technique.  So for me to make a judgement on when to use such technique would be from ignorance and probably misguided.

So, here goes.  Basically, when would pre-meditated intention to kill be acceptable or right?  I feel that would be best left to the martial artist that has that skill and wisdom to be able to perform such radical technique.
Generically, the use of such force may be justified when it's a situation of your death or thier death.  
But, at a higher level of skill in the arts, that situation would and should be more rare and improbable in coming to actuallity.  

Maybe if they have a gun on you or a loved one and you know for a FACT that they will kill you or them, or if maybe there is more than one person with weapons or guns.  But, seriously, any situation I could dream up would be nothing like a true situation that called for this kind of action.  (I'm just a little to naive to the evil's that people are really cabable of and have a hard time imagining when exactly to use that kind of force.  I'll use what I've got, and if they die, then that's what happens when fighting for my life, but I don't have that power to make that kind of choice.)

And if I had to make that choice, I don't think I could do it.  I'm just not built that way.  And it's a little scary to think that I might have it in me to possibility do that to someone.  Deep question.  Scary question.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 15, 2008)

As MyUserName said... use of excessive force is taking it to the point of death, by a hair's width. 
Your WC should help you to effectively neutralize your threat whatever it may be to the point of escape -- of which there is NO SHAME! -- for you or for the one you are defending/assisting. 
If holding the guy is enough until he calms down and starts acting in a more rational manner (they can still be mad and whatever but they're not trying to hurt you) then that's enough. That is one extreme, the other is if you have to break their leg/arm/whatever so that they're incapacitated and get make moves to hurt you anymore then STOP. Even if it's a group of attackers, only do enough damage to stop all of them ... sometimes even hurting ONE of them is enough to stop (pack mentality). 

It's been said here before. A Martial Artist assumes a lot of responsibility for the skills that they learn. They are responsible for the amount of control, judgment and discipline when using it, both in and out of the school.

Don't embarrass your peers by going over the top. Do what you can and what is necessary and LEARN what is necessary to stop an attacker.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

I think he's asking when would it be necessary to go that far with such techniques.  It's a quesiton of extreme "exception to the regular rules of engagement".
I've been attacked and looked right in the eyes of pure EVIL, and everything I tried to subdue him didn't work.  It enraged him more.  Seemed to feed off it.
This situation didn't end well for me, but I "survived".  (I still don't know how or why)

But, if in that situation again knowing how to do something like those deadly strikes on him described.  I may not like my own answer to whether or not I would have used such techniques on that man being put in the same situation twice.  
With that experience and knowledge, I wouldn't want to test the fates with my life again just to prove to myself (or others) that I'm a "better person" for not applying lethal force when everything else isn't working.

It comes down to a personal choice for everyone.  You can't judge someone else for choosing differently than what you "think" you might choose to do or not to do.  You can only disagree.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 15, 2008)

> I mean when it is okay to use Iron Fingers techniques to pierce flesh, or Iron palm to rupture someones spleen or kidneys, When it is okay to use Phoenix Fist to attack vital pressure points, When is it okay to strike someone in the adams apple with crushing crane beak?
> 
> When are Neck Breaks and Iron palm to chest okay to use?
> 
> When are more of deadly techniques of Bil Gee deem acceptable to use in Combat?


 
Um on the battle fields of old when you were engaging in hand to hand combat of kill or be killed.

As a Martial artist you should have the ability to use the correct amount of force needed to stop your attacker. You do not need excessive force to accomplish this. Your question in some way is asking when is it ok to kill someone? I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> I think he's asking when would it be necessary to go that far with such techniques.  It's a quesiton of extreme "exception to the regular rules of engagement".
> I've been attacked and looked right in the eyes of pure EVIL, and everything I tried to subdue him didn't work.  It enraged him more.  Seemed to feed off it.
> This situation didn't end well for me, but I "survived".  (I still don't know how or why)
> 
> ...


A person rendered unconscious doesn't have to die. If you can get your attacker at that point then there is no need to go on is there? But if you cannot... and if your life (or someone else's) is in immediate danger of ending at that person's hands then yeah of course you take it to expressiveness because THEY are taking it to the excessive. I think anyone with a sense of self preservation is going to know they have no alternative if pushed against the wall like that. 

But honestly ask yourself... do you really know what looking into the eyes of pure evil is really like? Forget the Charlie Manson or Richard Rameriez photos... I mean face to face. I've seen it once and was glad that their attention wasn't focused on me.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> I think he's asking when would it be necessary to go that far with such techniques.  It's a quesiton of extreme "exception to the regular rules of engagement".



In that case then the answer still remains the same. Only when your life or someone elses is threatened.




Si-Je said:


> I've been attacked and looked right in the eyes of pure EVIL, and everything I tried to subdue him didn't work.  It enraged him more.  Seemed to feed off it.
> This situation didn't end well for me, but I "survived".  (I still don't know how or why)
> 
> But, if in that situation again knowing how to do something like those deadly strikes on him described.  I may not like my own answer to whether or not I would have used such techniques on that man being put in the same situation twice.
> ...



I'm terribly sorry to read that this happened to you, it is very brave of you to share that information and you must be a strong person to come through an attack like that. In this type of situation I would personally suggest that you would be perfectly within your legal rights to use lethal force to defend yourself as at the time it sounds that you did not know that you would survive. You are completely right when you say that until such a time comes you do not know how you will react no matter how well you prepare yourself so no one should judge.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Um on the battle fields of old when you were engaging in hand to hand combat of kill or be killed.
> 
> As a Martial artist you should have the ability to use the correct amount of force needed to stop your attacker. You do not need excessive force to accomplish this. Your question in some way is asking when is it ok to kill someone? I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) *Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable*.



But I would then add that it stops being excessive force at that point and becomes proportionate force to the level of threat. Excessive is just that, excessive, if it is kill or be killed then killing the attacker would be reasonable force and not excessive.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> A person rendered unconscious doesn't have to die. If you can get your attacker at that point then there is no need to go on is there? But if you cannot... I think anyone with a sense of self preservation is going to know they have no alternative if pushed against the wall like that. .


 
I totally agree, IF you can "render them unconscious".  This is a last resort issue. 



MA-Caver said:


> But honestly ask yourself... do you really know what looking into the eyes of pure evil is really like?..... was glad that their attention wasn't focused on me.


 
Yes, I do.  And it was directed AT me.  Does that make me wiser to how far and exactly the limits of someone taken over by "pure evil" is totally capable of?  No.  But, it made clear to me when you have reached the point of no return.

This topic has made me seriously re-think my ideals of self-defense and what I am truely willing to do.  Took me a while to really think about it and remeber things I don't like to think about, ever.  
But, it has brought to light alot of my reasoning and attitudes about defense and when to attack.
I used to be of the very same mindset as most here.  Thinking that killing is NEVER okay.  Or to use excessive force.  And it isn't.  But, it's never acceptable to be killed either!  Especially due to limitations placed on oneself based on pre-concieved and limited moral codes of conduct, idealism in being a "good person" or "martial artist", etc.  
I once thought I had the training to defeat anyone that might try to hurt me much less kill me because of all my years of training in martial arts.  That I could handle anything, from any attacker.  Until I was disillusioned in a most brutal fashion from a person that wanted to end my life.  And in a way did.  I lost all faith in martial arts, until I trained Wing Chun.  
See, my perspective on attack and defense completely changed FOREVER.  They are the cause and result of the other on a cosmic level!
I wasn't impressed by cool looking or even fun technqies anymore and wouldn't waste time on them, I hated techniques like that for years because of the false sence of security they give people.  (much like I had before)  
I still don't want to hurt people, but that will never happen to me again.  And it taught me more of what I'm going to have to learn to keep that from ever happening again.  And it's an ugly thing sometimes. 
Hopefully, everything nicer and safer will work and I won't have to resort to that kind of thing.  But, that's just hope.  I don't want to live on hope alone.


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## stickarts (Dec 15, 2008)

I think of excessive force only in all out warfare. In self defense, i think in terms of using only enough force to get out of the situation. Each person must draw their own ethical lines.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

myusername said:


> I'm terribly sorry to read that this happened to you, it is very brave of you to share that information and you must be a strong person to come through an attack like that. In this type of situation I would personally suggest that you would be perfectly within your legal rights to use lethal force to defend yourself as at the time it sounds that you did not know that you would survive. You are completely right when you say that until such a time comes you do not know how you will react no matter how well you prepare yourself so no one should judge.


 
It just opened my eyes.  As for legal rights, I would have gone to jail or prison if I retaliated to the point of death that day.  New England law is pretty rotten when it comes to self defense.  And there were no witnesses to prove my case of self defense.  (like the way such a situation almost always occurs)  Probably why I get so irritated when people place limitation of law over thier own life.

There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago.  He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
He snapped his neck and killed him dead.
Now, he's in prison pending trial.
Is this excessive force?  Apparently up state it is (illinois I think) but in Texas it would not be so.
Laws are well and good, but they are wrong sometimes too.  Should he be taken away from the daughter he protected as a parent should possibly forever?  Should she feel that what daddy did was wrong?


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## MA-Caver (Dec 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> I totally agree, IF you can "render them unconscious".  This is a last resort issue.


 Exactly. However it is not always practical. The unconscious person may revive and carry on their "evil" to someone else... but that is an unknown. They may revive and be glad that they're alive and that they realize the errors of their ways and do a 180 ... but unfortunately that is unrealistic. Yet it's a judgment call. 
When I was attacked on the streets in Washington D.C. I managed to incapacitate my attacker (smashing their windpipe) to where I could get away... ran a few blocks and found a security guard. Told them to call the police because someone is "hurt" down that way a few blocks... and went on my way. 
I hope that the police got to them and got them the help they needed and whatever fate they deserved. 



Si-Je said:


> > Originally Posted by *MA-Caver*
> >
> >
> > _But honestly ask yourself... do you really know what looking into the eyes of pure evil is really like?..... was glad that their attention wasn't focused on me._
> ...


 It is out there. And I'm sorry you're also one of the people to have experienced that. It's not very pleasant. 



Si-Je said:


> This topic has made me seriously re-think my ideals of self-defense and what I am truely willing to do.  Took me a while to really think about it and remeber things I don't like to think about, ever.
> But, it has brought to light alot of my reasoning and attitudes about defense and when to attack.
> I used to be of the very same mindset as most here.  Thinking that killing is NEVER okay.  Or to use excessive force.  And it isn't.  But, it's never acceptable to be killed either!  Especially due to limitations placed on oneself based on pre-conceived and limited moral codes of conduct, idealism in being a "good person" or "martial artist", etc.
> I once thought I had the training to defeat anyone that might try to hurt me much less kill me because of all my years of training in martial arts.  That I could handle anything, from any attacker.  Until I was disillusioned in a most brutal fashion from a person that wanted to end my life.  And in a way did.  I lost all faith in martial arts, until I trained Wing Chun.
> ...


Killing and hurting people is NEVER okay. But it's necessary sometimes. That is where a Martial Artist's judgment comes in. To know that this is going to be enough to stop this person from hurting me and anyone else for the moment. 
Some techniques are cool looking and fun... but they are (IMO) primarily designed to inflict damage upon someone, if done correctly. I don't want to start saying this is wrong/bad or that is or is not a good tech. All of them would have to be if they're in whatever art that they're in... right? A GM or founder of an art wouldn't just make up something just for the hell of it if it didn't have any practical application of *real defense*? 
A jumping roundhouse TKD kick isn't going to work if an attacker has you cornered in a small bathroom stall or phone booth right? But it might do well in an open air parking lot while you were walking to your car... provided you timed and performed the tech correctly. 

I too promised myself that I will NEVER allow anyone to hurt me again... but I learned that sometimes it can happen again whether you want it to or not. Sucker-punches really do suck... and they do happen. You simply cannot be 100% aware 100% of the time because you'll never get no sleep, you'll strain the relations with your loved ones and friends... and so on. 
You can however learn from experience and know when it's necessary to raise your level of awareness that is appropriate to where you are and who you're with. A heightened sense of awareness of your surroundings can help minimize the chances of you actually using your MA... because you can get away from the area before trouble starts... or your sense of awareness *will *be picked by potential attackers (muggers/robbers/whatever) and they'll _usually_ go off to find easier prey. 

No, it is never okay to hurt or kill anyone, but it is necessary sometimes. Just how much is still up to you. 
:asian:
(edit)


Si-Je said:


> There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago. He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
> and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
> He snapped his neck and killed him dead.
> Now, he's in prison pending trial.
> ...


A friend of mine argued that fact with me (he's a pacifist) that it would be selfish to your children to kill someone for something they were doing or about to do to your children... even in your OWN home. 
The laws DO suck in that regard depending upon where one lives. 
It is hoped that a jury will see beyond the law and see where the danger lies and see the potential of that happening to THEM that they will acquit the father for doing the right thing.


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## myusername (Dec 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> It just opened my eyes.  As for legal rights, I would have gone to jail or prison if I retaliated to the point of death that day.  New England law is pretty rotten when it comes to self defense.  And there were no witnesses to prove my case of self defense.  (like the way such a situation almost always occurs)  Probably why I get so irritated when people place limitation of law over thier own life.
> 
> There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago.  He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
> and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
> ...



Wow! Just wow! That is dreadful. I have been participating in this thread from an Englishman's perspective. Assuming that America would have very similar laws that cover self defence to the UK. That story is just wrong.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

That's okay MA-Caver, that's just what happens when your a mouthy punkrock girl that thought she was immortal. lol! 
If I'd had ANY inkling that he was capable of anything crazy like that, I wouldn't have been hanging out with him at all. Sometimes you just never know until it's too late. We'd all like to be wise and all knowing about people's character and intentions, but you still just never really know.
And my dislike for less practical (in my eyes and perspective now) is just personal preference due to experience. Not ment as a total slam of any other art other than WC/WT. I come off that way alot, and really don't mean to. I just feel strongly about self-defense and only want to learn what will end a confrontation immediately and it makes me pretty narrow-minded in a way, on the subject. 



myusername said:


> Wow! Just wow! That is dreadful. I have been participating in this thread from an Englishman's perspective. Assuming that America would have very similar laws that cover self defence to the UK. That story is just wrong.



Here's another good one. I knew a gal once that dated a guy and they broke up (which is what normally happens) He decided he didn't want that and came to her house, and kicked in her front door charging in. She beat him back out of the apartment. And even with Texas law protecting her "rights" to defend herself, they deemed it dometic violence and took HER to jail. 
They we NOT married, or living together and he had no legal right to come in. But, since they had dated she fell into a whole 'nuttha set of laws that are COMPLETELY lacking in every state.
So, she got to go to jail, lose a job and apartment, get a criminal record (making it harder to work and get another apartment) and go to court taking anger management classes for 16 weeks! 
He was still in her life too after that, harassing her, and threatening her violently and now, legally. He moved closer to her after she moved away. HE had a protection order on HER, and would happily break it to get her in more trouble.
I've got a 100 of those stories, from 100 different women. 

But, that's a bit off topic. Kinda. But kinda not. Again, what is excessive? Having an incompasitated person and delivering a kill stroke? Maybe excessive, unless you know they will never stop coming back to get you or your family and will finally, eventually do you in. It's all really speculation at this point at best. But, an issue that needs to be addressed by everyone at one time or another, espectially one studing an any art.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 15, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> That's okay MA-Caver, that's just what happens when your a mouthy punkrock girl that thought she was immortal. lol!
> If I'd had ANY inkling that he was capable of anything crazy like that, I wouldn't have been hanging out with him at all. Sometimes you just never know until it's too late. We'd all like to be wise and all knowing about people's character and intentions, but you still just never really know.
> And my dislike for less practical (in my eyes and perspective now) is just personal preference due to experience. Not ment as a total slam of any other art other than WC/WT. I come off that way alot, and really don't mean to. I just feel strongly about self-defense and only want to learn what will end a confrontation immediately and it makes me pretty narrow-minded in a way, on the subject.
> 
> ...


It's *******s like that that make me stand by my statement in another thread that I'm embarrassed by my own sex sometimes.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Also lets not forget the battlefield of today. Lets say you go out of states an are attack by terrorist or your in Army and have to fight hand to hand combat. Those techniques may say your life. Or what if the day comes that China or Islam invaded America and their were Islamist blowing up homes around you,shooting people on sight and beating people down in streets with their fist. Would you hold back those techniques if your surrounded by some funadamentalist taliban who want to beat you to death with their bare hands because of what you represent. Remember you in the midst of invasion? What then morally speaking of course. Because at the point the law of land won't apply?





JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Um on the battle fields of old when you were engaging in hand to hand combat of kill or be killed.
> 
> As a Martial artist you should have the ability to use the correct amount of force needed to stop your attacker. You do not need excessive force to accomplish this. Your question in some way is asking when is it ok to kill someone? I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

If Someone enters your home. Shoot him with the gun. That way there is no need for trial on self defense. Because he enter your home illegally. You were afraid for your life so you shoot him. He is a rapist of a little baby possibly your wife. So kill him. 



Si-Je said:


> It just opened my eyes. As for legal rights, I would have gone to jail or prison if I retaliated to the point of death that day. New England law is pretty rotten when it comes to self defense. And there were no witnesses to prove my case of self defense. (like the way such a situation almost always occurs) Probably why I get so irritated when people place limitation of law over thier own life.
> 
> There was a guy on the new a couple of weeks ago. He woke up in the night to strange noises coming from his daughters room (about 8-10 years old),
> and found a naked man wearing boot, a ski mask, and latex gloves at the foot of his baby girl's bed.
> ...


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## MA-Caver (Dec 15, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> If Someone enters your home. Shoot him with the gun. That way there is no need for trial on self defense. Because he enter your home illegally. You were afraid for your life so you shoot him. He is a rapist of a little baby possibly your wife. So kill him.


You cannot always do that and get away with the self-defense thing. Depending upon where you live. Maybe in Texas... where the police say if you shoot them and they go flying out the door then drag them back in and shoot 'em again... that way you can testify "Yes, I shot him in my house!" but in other states... you can end up going to prison... better double/triple check the laws where you live before adopting that mentality... 

ALSO consider the ramifications of killing someone... even a scumbag. It's the taking of a *human life*, ironically speaking as one who is PRO death-penalty. It's regrettable  but necessary sometimes. 
It's not as easy as simply pulling the trigger. 
For some folks it may be no big deal the first time around, for others... it takes getting used to (even if you did it once). 
You will never know until you've done it. If you have (as a LEO or soldier) then you know but in a defense situation. :idunno: that's something else I think. 

Oh, if we were invaded by the Chinese or (laughably) the Taliban... I think they'd have a helluva mess and a helluva time trying to stay occupied here. Folks would have a different mind-set about killing the invaders. If we think that the insurgents in Iraq or Afghanistan are bad... well like Humphrey Bogart said in Casablanca to the German Officer... "well there are certain parts of New York I wouldn't advise you to try and invade". Multiply that by every major city and then go out into the countryside ... Either way... it's still defense.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Yes unfortunately the law works funny that way. Both can be charged. She obviously didn't press charges on him. Something similiar happen to me. I had a cousin who was a drunk and on drugs. He lived in the house with me because he a legal right too. Because it was a family house and his dead mother once live there. So I couldn't legally put him out even though I was paying all the bills. He was acting up one day and threating me an my girl friend at the time. She was very afrain. I tried my best to advoid a fight with him. He attempted to kick me. I gan sau caught his kick and push him back. He tried to swing I just blocked an asked him to calm down or else I am going to call police. He went upstairs to his room. He started screaming and cursing in his room. My Girlfriend at the time got afraid and called the police. I did things to make him not want to fight. Like I held on to my nunchuks and let him know if he came in he would get a bop on the head. So he didn't engage me really. He would just kick on my door in my room. A curse and yell alot. The police knocked on the door. I open it. Like they had the house surrounded. They rushed in stormed the back and put me in handcuffs. I was trying to tell him that he was drunk an out of control. I asked repeately why am I in hand cuffs. They took me to jail that night. It was consider domestic dispute. Because were related. Anyway they labeled it as misdemanor assault. The took my picture and even finger printed me. Had I floored him or broke his arm in the beginning I would have never went to jail. But in the end I made my cousin go with me to police station to get the charges thrown out. I also have relatives in police department so that helps. But what should of happen was I should have hurt him. Instead of waiting on him to calm down. I told him many things to make him think about what he was doing. But it took a night in jail and $200 bond money the next day. So I had to spend $200 to get out jail the next morning. Which was going to be used to pay so needed bills. Ohwell those bills will have to be deliquent I suppose. So sometimes advoiding the fight won't help you. He should have got the beat down than the police wouldn't have arrested me. Because he would calm down an try to heal from his beating. But sometimes you try and do the right thing to co-exist.

Sometimes the only way is violence for some people. 

Get this after I got out of jail why did they send me stuff talking about domestic abuse and being the victim. I mean there was no fight. There was him trying to throw a low round house kick an it getting caught by me. An his punches being pak down out the air. But no one was even hurt. They are so stupid sometimes.

The other incident was another girl I was dating had a brother who had abusive girlfriend. She would try to fight anyone in the hood. She even thought she could fight him. One day she started hitting him in the face continously. He liked grabbed her by the neck an started choking her. Eventually from lack of breath she stop hitting him. She was sorta of heavy set. Atleast she weighed more than him. He was backed in corner in room. While they were arguing. She got so angry that she decided to start punching his face in. He couldn't get away. He knew No martial arts. The only thing he could do was grab her neck and squeeze to make her stop punching his face constantly. She got more angry and called the police. He actually was smart for not punching her back. But the police still took him into custody. He spent the night in jail. He press charges on her too. They took her in to jail. She was trying to show the police marks on her neck where he choked her. But he let them know that she started punching him the face. He showed them his eye and lip. So they took her down too. She got out before he did the next morning I don't know why.

Laws are pretty funny. 

But I got a cousin. Who was jumped by five guys I believe it may be more. Anyway he didn't fight with them or use his art. He just shot them all dead. An went to court an pleaded self defense and that was that. The guys were trying to rob him. So he shot them dead. So that way they could not testify against him because their dead. The Law is funny. 

Its better to shoot an attacker and kill them then to fight them and put them in the hospital sometimes. Especially where I live.



Si-Je said:


> That's okay MA-Caver, that's just what happens when your a mouthy punkrock girl that thought she was immortal. lol!
> If I'd had ANY inkling that he was capable of anything crazy like that, I wouldn't have been hanging out with him at all. Sometimes you just never know until it's too late. We'd all like to be wise and all knowing about people's character and intentions, but you still just never really know.
> And my dislike for less practical (in my eyes and perspective now) is just personal preference due to experience. Not ment as a total slam of any other art other than WC/WT. I come off that way alot, and really don't mean to. I just feel strongly about self-defense and only want to learn what will end a confrontation immediately and it makes me pretty narrow-minded in a way, on the subject.
> 
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> It's *******s like that that make me stand by my statement in another thread that I'm embarrassed by my own sex sometimes.


 
Oh, I didn't mean to bum ya'll out.  You can't be responsible for others.  I'm embarrassed by my own sex too sometimes! lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

If I am afraid someone is going to hurt me and they enter my home. I have no problem with ending theirs. I think like this. If they are enemy and live they may come back to kill me. I have heard stories of too many people who have fought people and beat them so badly that when their attackers healed they came back with semi automatics to kill them. The best thing to do is kill a scumbag. If not he will retalitate with gun fire. If he can't beat you with the hands then here he comes with gun. I hear and see it too many times. Even my Sihing can testify to this. Thats why he always keeps a gun on him everywhere he goes. lol...He is very skilled in Wing Chun and has defeated some top fighters in other arts. 
But if you beat up somepeople who are trying to rob you. They will be embarssed and out of pride they will try to sneak up on you an shoot you in the back. Better not leave surviviors because they become avengers. I always think in the back of head. If I beat him he may possibly want revenge. So someone coming into my house to do me harm will never live. Because they know where I stay. They have my address. Now on the street with someone I may never see again thats a different story. But you coming to my house. You may do 18 months if I am lucky than your out looking for home of residence to get your revenge only this time your not going to be so foolish. Your going to make sure you keep your gun far from me instead of pulling it out when your chi sau distance. So I rather get my 44 and end their life instead of looking over my shoulders every day.




MA-Caver said:


> You cannot always do that and get away with the self-defense thing. Depending upon where you live. Maybe in Texas... where the police say if you shoot them and they go flying out the door then drag them back in and shoot 'em again... that way you can testify "Yes, I shot him in my house!" but in other states... you can end up going to prison... better double/triple check the laws where you live before adopting that mentality...
> 
> ALSO consider the ramifications of killing someone... even a scumbag. It's the taking of a *human life*, ironically speaking as one who is PRO death-penalty. It's regrettable but necessary sometimes.
> It's not as easy as simply pulling the trigger.
> ...


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 15, 2008)

> Also lets not forget the battlefield of today. Lets say you go out of states an are attack by terrorist or your in Army and have to fight hand to hand combat. Those techniques may say your life. Or what if the day comes that China or Islam invaded America and their were Islamist blowing up homes around you,shooting people on sight and beating people down in streets with their fist. Would you hold back those techniques if your surrounded by some funadamentalist taliban who want to beat you to death with their bare hands because of what you represent. Remember you in the midst of invasion? What then morally speaking of course. Because at the point the law of land won't apply?


 
As I said before:



> I suppose in an extreme situation such as a guy trying to kill you(thinking serial killer here) Then performing excessive force to ensure your surivial might seem probable.


 
In Warfare at least in modern times you are fighting with guns and weapons not really so much open handed. But comparing warfare and the average fight on the street is like comparing Apple to Oranges.

Again when you are speaking of excessive force you are talking in terms of killing someone. So again your question comes off as when is it ok to kill someone.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

There are women out there who abuse men too. I have met some. I asked them why do they hit men. They say because they don't fight them back. So that means that man is a weak man. If he doesn't do what she says she is going to hit him the head with the frying pan, Burn him with hot iron, pour boiling water on him etc. My Wing Chun Sidai's mother was that way. In fact with her new husband he is handicap. One his legs is wooden. She kicked him down the steps one day. So women are sometimes abusive too. It sad but true.




Si-Je said:


> Oh, I didn't mean to bum ya'll out. You can't be responsible for others. I'm embarrassed by my own sex too sometimes! lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> As I said before:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually there are times in Warfare today where you have close combat sitituations thats why they teach BJJ to I believe the Marines.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Not just killing but also

Choking someone out
Knocking them out
Breaking limbs
Breaking ribs and bones
Causing paralysis
etc



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> As I said before:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Also lets not forget the battlefield of today. Lets say you go out of states an are attack by terrorist or your in Army and have to fight hand to hand combat. Those techniques may say your life. Or what if the day comes that China or Islam invaded America and their were Islamist blowing up homes around you,shooting people on sight and beating people down in streets with their fist. Would you hold back those techniques if your surrounded by some funadamentalist taliban who want to beat you to death with their bare hands because of what you represent. Remember you in the midst of invasion? What then morally speaking of course. Because at the point the law of land won't apply?


 
That's a whole different can of worms there.  War is war.  Different rules, if any.

And no.  I'll have no hesitation there.  I don't represent anything but myself.  And if someone doesn't see that and wants to kill me for stupid reasons, then I don't have a problem dealing with that.  (like they don't like Texans because of one notorious Texan and, thinks we all suck like that)
But that's a scenario that would be a whole new kind of hell for all involved.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Actually there are times in Warfare today where you have close combat sitituations thats why they teach BJJ to I believe the Marines.


 
Hubbie would get mad with that statement. lol!
But they do end up in hand to hand situations alot more than people know.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

I don't think all texans are bad because of your notorious Texan. Let me guess your speaking George Bush right? 






Si-Je said:


> That's a whole different can of worms there. War is war. Different rules, if any.
> 
> And no. I'll have no hesitation there. I don't represent anything but myself. And if someone doesn't see that and wants to kill me for stupid reasons, then I don't have a problem dealing with that. (like they don't like Texans because of one notorious Texan and, thinks we all suck like that)
> But that's a scenario that would be a whole new kind of hell for all involved.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 15, 2008)

[QUOTE*ex&#8901;ces&#8901;sive*&#8194; &#8194;/&#618;k&#712;s&#603;s
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





&#618;v/ Show Spelled Pronunciation 

 [ik-*ses*-iv] Show IPA Pronunciation 

 

*adjective *going beyond the usual, necessary, or proper limit or degree;] [/QUOTE]



> In criminal law, the unjustified use of force, determined by the circumstances.


 


> Not just killing but also
> 
> Choking someone out
> Knocking them out
> ...


Depending on the situation it may be excessive or it maybe justified force.
I can not make a blanket statement and say it is or not.
However usuage of paralysis or death would in most situations be considered usuage of excessive force.



> Actually there are times in Warfare today where you have close combat sitituations thats why they teach BJJ to I believe the Marines.


Ya the idea is to strike your opponent or keep him in your guard long enough until you reach your 45. to shoot him.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> There are women out there who abuse men too. I have met some. I asked them why do they hit men. They say because they don't fight them back. So that means that man is a weak man. If he doesn't do what she says she is going to hit him the head with the frying pan, Burn him with hot iron, pour boiling water on him etc. My Wing Chun Sidai's mother was that way. In fact with her new husband he is handicap. One his legs is wooden. She kicked him down the steps one day. So women are sometimes abusive too. It sad but true.


 
I know.  horrible.  But, good statement that abuse has no gender bias, race, financial stature, or social standing.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Yea thats for home intruders. Because it doesn't take any skill to shoot a gun besides if your hitting a target from a far distance. But if he is up on me. Than selfdefense would be to shoot the intruder with the slugs. Why use the Art on an intruder. No need if you have gun. The Art for when I do not have the ability to shoot. 


Ya the idea is to strike your opponent or keep him in your guard long enough until you reach your 45. to shoot him.[/quote]


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Si-Je your private message box is filled. You have to delete your old messages you have already read. You can not receive any more messages!


 
fixed it.  thanks.


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Okay, no.  Marines don't use BJJ in combat.  It does not help you to get to your .45 while you have a dude between your legs with a 100 lb. pack on your back so you can't get up quickly like a turtle exposed in the sun.

Hubbie would die, glad he's at work.
He doen't chat on here much, and he'd make me do all the typing.  so, shhhhh! lol!


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

I dont remember which ones are training the BJJ is it the marines,army or what? I know the armed forces have introduce some ground fighting now for their officers?




Si-Je said:


> Okay, no. Marines don't use BJJ in combat. It does not help you to get to your .45 while you have a dude between your legs with a 100 lb. pack on your back so you can't get up quickly like a turtle exposed in the sun.
> 
> Hubbie would die, glad he's at work.
> He doen't chat on here much, and he'd make me do all the typing. so, shhhhh! lol!


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 15, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program

Looks like BJJ to me..

If someone tries to take you to the ground then yes you might pull guard so he does not get on top of you and try to stab you.

In guard you might have a chance to reach for your gun end the conflict instead of sitting there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-U1eGcXXc0&feature=related

Look his hand is free to shoot him!


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## Si-Je (Dec 15, 2008)

Looks like shoot wrestling to me.  They train wrestling, Martial Arts styles such as Okinawan Karate, Judo, and Jujutsu.
That video looked like a really BAD position to be in period.  We're talking urban warfare here.  Where people come out of the woodwork to shoot you.  There's no cover in that position, you don't stay there long.  
These are training drills, not the end product of their combat training. 
Man, Hubbie's gonna POOP! a brick. lol!  Hates that their teaching the Army BJJ.  He was a MCMAP instructor in the marine corps, and trained other arts to help put into the system.  
Still a good way to learn wrestling sensitivity. Don't wrestlers start off in a similar position?



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Martial_Arts_Program
> 
> Looks like BJJ to me..
> 
> ...


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

Very interesting links Jade cloud!

Since your alchemist can you make some gold out of water for me?


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## Joab (Dec 15, 2008)

You should never use excessive force, only the force needed to defend yourself, and only deadly force against a deadly attack. You should run if at all possible, and use self defense only in the amount a reasonable person would do in the same situation. Consult an attorney in your area as to self defense laws and what is considered reasonable use of force.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

When should it be deemed an okay time to maime or paralyse someone?



Joab said:


> You should never use excessive force, only the force needed to defend yourself, and only deadly force against a deadly attack. You should run if at all possible, and use self defense only in the amount a reasonable person would do in the same situation. Consult an attorney in your area as to self defense laws and what is considered reasonable use of force.


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## Mystic Wolf (Dec 15, 2008)

As a MCMAP instructor, we take what works and discard what doesn't work.  With BJJ we only use a few basic moves, primarialy we use Aiki Ju-Jitsu, Akido, WT, Muy Tai, Judo, and Karate.  
Here's a video:

MCMAP instructor training program.  This was tougher than going to bootcamp.  Some of the hardest training I've done in my life.


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## Mystic Wolf (Dec 15, 2008)

Use of Excessive Force, is determined by court of law.  When would I use it, with my training background as a Marine and a martial artist.  
I would use this "excessive force" when I feel my family or myself is in danger of bodily harm or worse.  I have been arrested for using "excessive force", but the judge dissmised the case when it was brought to his attention that I was attacked by 5 guys.  The story goes like this:  I just returned from Kosovo and started attending college.  I was dating a girl that broke up with her boyfriend to see me, and he got jealous.  When I pulled into a gas station to put gas in the car, him and his friends blocked my car with their cars so I couldn't leave.  And surrounded me.  Without thinking I reacted and took all 5 out, and was the only one standing when the sheriff came in, without a mark on me, so I was the one arrested at that time.
I posted bail, and when it went to trial the judge read what happened and dismissed the case because it was 5 to 1.
The moral of the story is: if you know your in the right then the courts will be in your favor.


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## mook jong man (Dec 15, 2008)

Mystic Wolf said:


> Use of Excessive Force, is determined by court of law. When would I use it, with my training background as a Marine and a martial artist.
> I would use this "excessive force" when I feel my family or myself is in danger of bodily harm or worse. I have been arrested for using "excessive force", but the judge dissmised the case when it was brought to his attention that I was attacked by 5 guys. The story goes like this: I just returned from Kosovo and started attending college. I was dating a girl that broke up with her boyfriend to see me, and he got jealous. When I pulled into a gas station to put gas in the car, him and his friends blocked my car with their cars so I couldn't leave. And surrounded me. Without thinking I reacted and took all 5 out, and was the only one standing when the sheriff came in, without a mark on me, so I was the one arrested at that time.
> I posted bail, and when it went to trial the judge read what happened and dismissed the case because it was 5 to 1.
> The moral of the story is: if you know your in the right then the courts will be in your favor.


 
Love your work , soldier.


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## Mystic Wolf (Dec 15, 2008)

Thank you.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 15, 2008)

I heard of similiar stories...this is so true...



Mystic Wolf said:


> Use of Excessive Force, is determined by court of law. When would I use it, with my training background as a Marine and a martial artist.
> I would use this "excessive force" when I feel my family or myself is in danger of bodily harm or worse. I have been arrested for using "excessive force", but the judge dissmised the case when it was brought to his attention that I was attacked by 5 guys. The story goes like this: I just returned from Kosovo and started attending college. I was dating a girl that broke up with her boyfriend to see me, and he got jealous. When I pulled into a gas station to put gas in the car, him and his friends blocked my car with their cars so I couldn't leave. And surrounded me. Without thinking I reacted and took all 5 out, and was the only one standing when the sheriff came in, without a mark on me, so I was the one arrested at that time.
> I posted bail, and when it went to trial the judge read what happened and dismissed the case because it was 5 to 1.
> The moral of the story is: if you know your in the right then the courts will be in your favor.


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## GBlues (Dec 16, 2008)

When 1 guy attacks you it could be considered an old fashioned attempt at an *** woopin'. When it's more than 1 it's life threatening. My opinion. Doesn't take 2 guys to dole out a stomping, unless they want to do more than that. My grandfather used to tell me that, " When your fighting that S.O.B., is doing everything in his power to kill you, and you'd better be willing to do the same. Or you may wind up dead." My dad, he used to tell me the same thing, except for this, " When your fighting, you don't stop until he aint moving anymore, or he's begging you to stop or, somebody pulls you off, when one of those three things happens stop!" Excessive force, is one of those things that really is a matter of opinion. My grandfather considered every fist fight a matter of war. In reality that's what it is, war. A war between two people. All a war is, is a big fist fight between two or more countries, using men,women, and weapons. Simple that's all. All a fight is, is war between two or more people utilizing there bodies, or other weapons to inflict as much bodily harm on an individual, or individuals as they possibly can to either, conquer, or defend. Simple. When your life is in danger, there is nothing that is excessive. Being alive even if your in prison is better than being dead. 

With that being said, I leave you with this quote, from Tim Larkin.
-" Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is it's the only answer"-


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 16, 2008)

> Looks like shoot wrestling to me. They train wrestling, Martial Arts styles such as Okinawan Karate, Judo, and Jujutsu.
> That video looked like a really BAD position to be in period. We're talking urban warfare here. Where people come out of the woodwork to shoot you. There's no cover in that position, you don't stay there long.
> These are training drills, not the end product of their combat training.
> Man, Hubbie's gonna POOP! a brick. lol! Hates that their teaching the Army BJJ. He was a MCMAP instructor in the marine corps, and trained other arts to help put into the system.
> Still a good way to learn wrestling sensitivity. Don't wrestlers start off in a similar position?


 
Hmm does not look like Koryu Jujutsu to me. But since BJJ derives from Judo and specialize in Newaza same difference.

I was giving an idea of when pulling guard MAY come in use.

If someone is on top of you trying to stab you pulling guard MAY allow you
to use leverage or hold him long enough to reach for a weapon.
I personally would not want someone sitting on my chest trying to stab me hence guard MAY come in handy.



> Since your alchemist can you make some gold out of water for me?


 
Are you trying to be a Smart as* because this some what comes off as disrespectful and some people would Negative rep you for comments like that. If it is a sincere question then start a thread about it. 

Anyway my point has been made I am done with this thread.


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## Si-Je (Dec 16, 2008)

Okay, everywhere I go online people talk about BJJ whether it's a comment on a WT clip, or anyother art.  This is some hard core brain washing going on a mass scale.  
Everyone does BJJ now?  Everytime people see folks on the ground fighting, oh! it's gotta be BJJ!  Since BJJ came from every art, and is in everything, since it is the oldest martial art around!(I actually heard a BJJ instructor tell his student's that one on a t.v. news channel!)
BJJ's a sport, plain and simple.  If the marines do it it's for fun.  But, whatever, no point trying to convince people of anything these days.  
Didn't mean to come off attacking you personally, it's just something that's been frustrating me lately.
Can't wait until hubbie gets a fight!  We got a video camra last night.  Gotta start carrying that with me everywhere.  See If my big mouth can get him some fights to put online.  %-}

If everyone wants to take BJJ, that's fine with me.  Actually, works out better for me. lol!  And baby girl is already on the road to being a *sskicker on the ground, so that's all that's important to me.


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## Kreth (Dec 16, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> If I am afraid someone is going to hurt me and they enter my home. I have no problem with ending theirs. I think like this. If they are enemy and live they may come back to kill me. I have heard stories of too many people who have fought people and beat them so badly that when their attackers healed they came back with semi automatics to kill them. The best thing to do is kill a scumbag. If not he will retalitate with gun fire. If he can't beat you with the hands then here he comes with gun. I hear and see it too many times. Even my Sihing can testify to this. Thats why he always keeps a gun on him everywhere he goes. lol...He is very skilled in Wing Chun and has defeated some top fighters in other arts.
> But if you beat up somepeople who are trying to rob you. They will be embarssed and out of pride they will try to sneak up on you an shoot you in the back. Better not leave surviviors because they become avengers. I always think in the back of head. If I beat him he may possibly want revenge. So someone coming into my house to do me harm will never live. Because they know where I stay. They have my address. Now on the street with someone I may never see again thats a different story. But you coming to my house. You may do 18 months if I am lucky than your out looking for home of residence to get your revenge only this time your not going to be so foolish. Your going to make sure you keep your gun far from me instead of pulling it out when your chi sau distance. So I rather get my 44 and end their life instead of looking over my shoulders every day.


So....... how many people have you killed, or is this just a theory? :idunno:


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## Si-Je (Dec 16, 2008)

Kreth said:


> So....... how many people have you killed, or is this just a theory? :idunno:


 
That's a deeply personal question to ask someone, especially when it is pretty well known that they feel strongly about this issue.
It's not a question I'd ask someone in form of a challenge to the points of their statements.

Hubbie's killed many people and I'd run screaming into the night before I ever bring any of that up!  And that's someone I know very well, and have a relationship with.  I find it's best to just never ask that question of strangers.


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## Kreth (Dec 16, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> That's a deeply personal question to ask someone, especially when it is pretty well known that they feel strongly about this issue.


It's a valid question, especially noting the rest of the post, "I have heard," "I see"
It'd be kind of like me advocating rolling up the window to trap a would-be carjackers arm and driving off and dragging him/her to death, while living in an area where carjacking is a rarity. But "I hear" it happens all the time...


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## Si-Je (Dec 16, 2008)

Kreth said:


> It's a valid question, especially noting the rest of the post, "I have heard," "I see"
> It'd be kind of like me advocating rolling up the window to trap a would-be carjackers arm and driving off and dragging him/her to death, while living in an area where carjacking is a rarity. But "I hear" it happens all the time...


 
I guess, but it's a little irrlevent to be so personal.  The question is when would you deem it wise, needed, or "legal" to use excessive force.  Not so much a head count of how many people have been killed.  It's a good question to an ugly scenario, a "what if" scenario.

I'd just hate for folks to get upset, it's already such a touchy subject rife with very personal beliefs based on the character and morality of each person.
When there is killing, everyone dies one way or another.
Yes, the survivor dies, your not who you were before, and that is what is too personal to ask lightly., or heavy for that matter.
Just saying.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 16, 2008)

So true...I totally agree with you GBlues...My Sifu often said fighting is not a game. When someone is fighting you they trying to hurt you bad. So you better hurt them first and put them out of commission so you can walk or run away.





GBlues said:


> When 1 guy attacks you it could be considered an old fashioned attempt at an *** woopin'. When it's more than 1 it's life threatening. My opinion. Doesn't take 2 guys to dole out a stomping, unless they want to do more than that. My grandfather used to tell me that, " When your fighting that S.O.B., is doing everything in his power to kill you, and you'd better be willing to do the same. Or you may wind up dead." My dad, he used to tell me the same thing, except for this, " When your fighting, you don't stop until he aint moving anymore, or he's begging you to stop or, somebody pulls you off, when one of those three things happens stop!" Excessive force, is one of those things that really is a matter of opinion. My grandfather considered every fist fight a matter of war. In reality that's what it is, war. A war between two people. All a war is, is a big fist fight between two or more countries, using men,women, and weapons. Simple that's all. All a fight is, is war between two or more people utilizing there bodies, or other weapons to inflict as much bodily harm on an individual, or individuals as they possibly can to either, conquer, or defend. Simple. When your life is in danger, there is nothing that is excessive. Being alive even if your in prison is better than being dead.
> 
> With that being said, I leave you with this quote, from Tim Larkin.
> -" Violence is rarely the answer, but when it is it's the only answer"-


----------



## morph4me (Dec 16, 2008)

It is never ok to use excessive force, although it is sometimes ok to use lethal force, the difference being in what is necessary for your survival. Excessive force means you did more than what you needed to do. If you do what you have to and stop it's not excessive, even if it's lethal. If you do what you have to and keep going, it's excessive


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 17, 2008)

Excellent Answer. I love your post!




morph4me said:


> It is never ok to use excessive force, although it is sometimes ok to use lethal force, the difference being in what is necessary for your survival. Excessive force means you did more than what you needed to do. If you do what you have to and stop it's not excessive, even if it's lethal. If you do what you have to and keep going, it's excessive


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## GBlues (Jan 8, 2009)

I want to post this because it's good story. When I was in highschool 10 years ago. My buddies dad told us a story that happened about 5 years previously before I graduated so it would have been about 15 years or so ago. Relates to the shooting a guy in your house that was brought up in one of the earlier posts.

This guy went to the local bar I think he said somewhere's up north here in Arizona. So it would have been like flag, or pinetop or somewheres up in that area. Anyways this guy goes to his local bar, and gets into a tussel, with more than a few guys there. It's some number like 10 or 15 guys, and they just beat the snot out of him. Put him in the hospital. So he gets out of the hospital and he kills about three of them in his house. So the cops show up, and it's an open and shut case, 3 guys dead in this dudes house. Arizona it's legal to shoot someone trespassing in your house. A few weeks later they show up at the guys house again with a couple more guys dead. Come to find out he was going to the bar throwing rocks through there car windows and luring them back to his house, where they ran inside and got shot to death. This guy is still sitting in prison. That is excessive. Flat out murder. But the point being it's not always alright to just shoot the guy. Although if your going to, kill him, so he can't sue you.

ANother guy a thief broke into this guys house, and got shot in the leg. It did permanent damage. THe thief turned around and sued the guy for everything he owned because he can no longer practice his chosen trade in life, and get this.......HE WON! :erg: Now how messed up is that?????? Oh and I never heard of him doing any jail time either. ????????


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 9, 2009)

This is kinda off topic but shows how the law works in reverse sometimes....Have you heard some women who molest young boys around 14 to 15 years old can be served child support papers and forced to pay if they get a 30 to 40 year old pregnate when she committed statutory raped with them. Also the same law applies if the boys are forced violently as well. They are still responsible to pay the woman child support even when the pervert gets out of the prison the boys still have to pay their rapist!!!!




GBlues said:


> I want to post this because it's good story. When I was in highschool 10 years ago. My buddies dad told us a story that happened about 5 years previously before I graduated so it would have been about 15 years or so ago. Relates to the shooting a guy in your house that was brought up in one of the earlier posts.
> 
> This guy went to the local bar I think he said somewhere's up north here in Arizona. So it would have been like flag, or pinetop or somewheres up in that area. Anyways this guy goes to his local bar, and gets into a tussel, with more than a few guys there. It's some number like 10 or 15 guys, and they just beat the snot out of him. Put him in the hospital. So he gets out of the hospital and he kills about three of them in his house. So the cops show up, and it's an open and shut case, 3 guys dead in this dudes house. Arizona it's legal to shoot someone trespassing in your house. A few weeks later they show up at the guys house again with a couple more guys dead. Come to find out he was going to the bar throwing rocks through there car windows and luring them back to his house, where they ran inside and got shot to death. This guy is still sitting in prison. That is excessive. Flat out murder. But the point being it's not always alright to just shoot the guy. Although if your going to, kill him, so he can't sue you.
> 
> ANother guy a thief broke into this guys house, and got shot in the leg. It did permanent damage. THe thief turned around and sued the guy for everything he owned because he can no longer practice his chosen trade in life, and get this.......HE WON! :erg: Now how messed up is that?????? Oh and I never heard of him doing any jail time either. ????????


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 21, 2009)

Here in Florida, there is no longer a duty to retreat,you can stand your ground and use whatever means to defend yourself.You still end up having to 
justify your actions.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 22, 2009)

When do you think its acceptable to use deadly force?





qwksilver61 said:


> Here in Florida, there is no longer a duty to retreat,you can stand your ground and use whatever means to defend yourself.You still end up having to
> justify your actions.


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 22, 2009)

Alright help me out here,I believe there is a similar post out there.Any Law people out there? I don't feel like being long winded!Help!


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## seasoned (Jan 22, 2009)

NYS Penal Law
 
2. A person may not use deadly physical force upon another person under circumstances specified in subdivision one unless:
(a) He reasonably believes that such other person is using or about to use deadly physical force. Even in such case, however, the actor may not use deadly physical force if he knows that he can with complete safety as to himself and others avoid the necessity of so doing by retreating; except that he is under no duty to retreat if he is:
(i) in his dwelling and not the initial aggressor; or
(ii) a police officer or peace officer or a person assisting a police officer or a peace officer at the latter`s direction, acting pursuant to
section 35.30; or
(b) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a kidnapping, forcible rape, forcible sodomy or
robbery; or
(c) He reasonably believes that such other person is committing or attempting to commit a burglary, and the circumstances are such that the use of deadly physical force is authorized by subdivision three of section 35.20.


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## GBlues (Jan 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> This is kinda off topic but shows how the law works in reverse sometimes....Have you heard some women who molest young boys around 14 to 15 years old can be served child support papers and forced to pay if they get a 30 to 40 year old pregnate when she committed statutory raped with them. Also the same law applies if the boys are forced violently as well. They are still responsible to pay the woman child support even when the pervert gets out of the prison the boys still have to pay their rapist!!!!


 
Well, that ain't right is it? I did not know that. Wow, you learn something new everyday.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 23, 2009)

Yea, GBlues I came across that its was crazy...i was like what...then i did some research an found out there are several articles that this happen alls the time. The women perverts usually serve less time than male pedophiles because the government feels men are more in control that a woman is. Even if that man was a child at the time. So the woman may do three to five years an when she gets out she will have her payments for 18 years!


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## qwksilver61 (Jan 26, 2009)

When someone talks about your Momma!


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## Hagakure (Jan 30, 2009)

What an interesting thread. 

What happens, if your intention is to incapacitate an attacker, so, for example you strike them to the head in a clean hit, knocking them off their feet. They hit there head on the way down, and die? How does one prove intent purely to injure in the name of self defence? You could potentially have only hit them once, yet this type of scenario happens.

There was a case of some English football violence a few years ago, when a guy was punched once, at random, fell down on the street, hit his head and died. It was likely that it was meant to be a simple punch, but the end result was excessive. How do you prove intent? You can't, can you?

I think I'd do enough to put someone down (were my skills/luck to permit it), then vanish as best I could. Geoff Thompson often argues that it's people sticking around afterwards to talk to the Police who end up getting into trouble. If you've genuinely done just enough to take the other guy out of the fight dependent upon the circumstances, and stopped the moment you've needed to, why hang about?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 4, 2009)

I totally agree...you should leave once the fight is done if your able to walk or run away!


Yes once the attacker falls you are clear to run unless they have a projecticle weapon in hand.




Hagakure said:


> What an interesting thread.
> 
> What happens, if your intention is to incapacitate an attacker, so, for example you strike them to the head in a clean hit, knocking them off their feet. They hit there head on the way down, and die? How does one prove intent purely to injure in the name of self defence? You could potentially have only hit them once, yet this type of scenario happens.
> 
> ...


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## Godspeed (Feb 9, 2009)

Chi na doesn't have to be used to break someones wrist you could just restrain them using it


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 10, 2009)

Well thats very imformative...when you fight combat against an attacker who may be trying to hurt or kill you...would it be feasible to use chin na to cripple your attacker so when you get up you can leave them...


To me breaking a leg or knocking someone out is the best option if you want to run or fighting multiple attackers...you want to be proficent in delivering knock out strikes at will or be able to break limbs instantly. This will ensure your survival alot of times.  If you can break one leg an move to the next for another clean break really quick between each attacker then eventually you have a window to run away.




Or you could just break they necks. But why do that when you can temporairly put them out of commission where you can escape with out them giving chase?




Godspeed said:


> Chi na doesn't have to be used to break someones wrist you could just restrain them using it


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