# Chin-na ???



## Shotochem (Dec 21, 2006)

Hi All,

     I am going to be having an opportuniy to attend a seminar on Chin-na and possibly attend a class or 2 a month as well. Do any of you have any experience in this art? and How does it compare to Japanese Jujitsu, Aki jitsu, or BJJ?  I am unfamiliar with most of the Chinese styles as I have studied Shotokan previously and am now studying Kempo.

                                                                            Thanks,
                                                                            -Marc-


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 21, 2006)

Hope your wrists are flexable and your fingers as well.  It can be a painful art to learn but it seems to have much to offer from what I have seen


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## 7starmantis (Dec 21, 2006)

Who is teaching the seminar you are attending if I may ask?


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## SFC JeffJ (Dec 21, 2006)

A lot of Japanese Jujutsu and the Aiki arts come from ChiNa.  It's brutal stuff.  Lots of what they call "Cavity Strikes" in there as well.  The setups are a little different than the Japanese stuff, but it's a pretty easy transition to make.

Jeff


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 21, 2006)

Shotochem said:


> How does it compare to Japanese Jujitsu, Aki jitsu, or BJJ?


 
It is more painful and less civilized, not that the styles you have listed are not very capable of causing great pain.

And most Chinese styles have at least a little Qinna (Chin-na) in them, some more than others.

Many Qinna applications you cannot use it a sports event. Basic definition of Qinna - joint locking and muscle and tendon tearing.


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## edwardcloud (Dec 21, 2006)

Chin Na is very good technique. Too bad no one is teaching in my country.


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## jdinca (Dec 21, 2006)

You're going to love it! Well, your wrists, elbows and shoulders maybe not so much.   I've attended a number of chin na seminars and have found them very beneficial. We include quite a bit in our system, so focusing on those type of moves have helped quite a bit.


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## Ronnin (Dec 21, 2006)

I've been looking for a Chin-na school in the Orange County area, does anyone know of any ? Thanks.


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## mantis (Dec 21, 2006)

edwardcloud said:


> Chin Na is very good technique. Too bad no one is teaching in my country.


tsk tsk tsk... im sure you didnt mean that!  every kung fu style has quite a bit of qinna in it already.  review all your techniques slowly and you'll find it everywhere


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## Shotochem (Dec 22, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> Who is teaching the seminar you are attending if I may ask?



     I will get the names when I go to my next class. I was more excited about trying something new than with the name of the instructor.  I am terrible with names and my spelling and pronounciation can be just as bad.  I am quite sure Prof. Rich brought in a top quality instructor he always does.:ultracool

    I have dabbled in JJJ, BJJ, and other assorted arts seminars and as I stated before have mainly trained in Shotokan, so I do not Know much about the Chinese arts.  What I have seen in my current dojo is a pretty diverse blend of arts as we are Kempo from the Kajukempo line and our style has the elements of Karate, BJJ, Chinese boxing and KF. 

     I have heard that once you get a taste of Chinese MA in 15 min you will be hungry to learn more.......  Is it true? :wink1:


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## Brother John (Dec 22, 2006)

Chin-Na can be roughly translated to "Seize and control"...which I think is a pretty decent explanation of how it functions. Chin-Na is the element from within MOST Chinese systems that addresses grappling and anti-grapling movements, though it also addresses striking as well. Joint manipulation is what it really specializes in, torquing joints to the point that the 'chain' is pulled tight...resulting in not only your wrist or elbow being 'locked' but every  joint up the line until the defender controls every joint from there to the spine itself; when they control the spine....they've GOT you.

*Here are the areas of study that Chin-Na addresses:*
*"Fen Jin": *Dividing the Muscle/Tendons

*"Cuo Gu":* Misplacing the Bones

*"Dian Xue":* Cavity Press

*"Na Mai":* Grabbing & Sealing Arteries/Chi Meridians

*"Zhua Jin":* Seizing Tendons

*"Bi Qi":* Sealing the Breath

Many here have talked about how "Your wrists and fingers are going to work"....
and they are *right* (_START stretching the wrists & fingers NOW...and don't stop if you can help it_) , but why stop there? The wrist and finger Chin-Na techniques are things the study is famous for...and they work GREAT, but it hardly stops there. There are Chin-Na of knees, ankles, shoulders, the neck....etc.
Basically: in my study of Chin-Na I've learned at least this...IF you can move it....your instructor can Grasp it, twist it, fold it and yank it from it's root. (usually all of the above) Once...when my instructor had my arms and legs immobilized with one of his legs and one of his arms (a very efficient art)...he jokingly said..."HEY..I've got one hand left....hrmmmm....what else can I grab" ((while tears were coming to my eyes))...he reached down and squeezed and turned my nose giving a Mr. Miyagi "HRRRM" honk.
nice...

Anyway. I'm not a know it all. I got my Chinese words right above by refering to my class textbook that I got from my Sifu...
"Comprehensive Applications of Shaolin Chin-Na" by Dr. Yang Jwing - Ming.
He is, in my humble opinion, the FINEST Chin-Na instructor doing seminars. If it's one of HIS seminars........PAY KEEN attention to everything...he's a master! Even if it's NOT his seminar, get this or one of MR. Yang's other books...you can't go wrong with his works!!!  www.ymaa.com

Also: there's LOTS of people out there teaching Chin-Na...yet they don't study any other TCMA!!!! I'd not trust them so much really. Not that they might not know what they are talking about, but that it starts from the very beginning being highly suspect. As one of my MORE informed brothers above already made mention... Chin-Na is a STUDY that comes from w/in the majority of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts (TCMA). Ones Chin-Na would be flavored or intimately linked to the martial art from which it was extracted. Dr. Yang's comes from a few TCMA such as Taijiquan and White Crane, and then some. There's also Hung Gar Chin-Na, Jow Ga Chin-Na, Choy Li Fut Chin-Na...etc..  
My own theory is that it's an ingredient within 99.9% of TCMA, but that somewhere along the line some students either weren't taught that "THese grab & twist techniques are called something different"....or that they simply never learned it....which is possible. (but unfortunate)

I hope I've helped you understand. There's those here who know a Great deal more, but aren't as WORDY as your brother John....


Enjoy!!


Your Brother
John​


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## profesormental (Dec 22, 2006)

Greetings.

I agree with Brother John. Get Dr. YAng's books and if you can go to a seminar.

Very methodical and thorough research has been documented by him. I've learned a lot from his written and video works.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## Shotochem (Dec 23, 2006)

7starmantis said:


> Who is teaching the seminar you are attending if I may ask?


7star, the class will be conducter by a Master Yeung (sp?) who is a Master in White Crane.  Are you familiar with him?

                                                                                           -Marc-


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## Mariachi Joe (Dec 23, 2006)

Hey good luck and enjoy the seminar


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## PeaceWarrior (Dec 23, 2006)

our instructor is very advanced in joint locking (chin na, aikido) and I will have to agree 100% with whats been said, namely, if you dont have flexible joints, START STRETCHING NOW

it can be very very painful, but chin na can be invaluable in an altercation where you dont want to beat the guys face in.  However it takes great skill (speed, power, sensitivity) to pull a lot of the techniques off. 

Good luck my friend!

Peace
Keith


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## edwardcloud (Dec 23, 2006)

mantis said:


> tsk tsk tsk... im sure you didnt mean that! every kung fu style has quite a bit of qinna in it already. review all your techniques slowly and you'll find it everywhere


 
A bit but a specialist who is good at the Chinese Chin Na is what i hope to find...


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 24, 2006)

edwardcloud said:


> A bit but a specialist who is good at the Chinese Chin Na is what i hope to find...


 
It is true that Qinna is in just about every CMA to varying degrees but there are also people that are masters of Qinna. I know of 2 and I know there are more and most unfortunately I can only remember the name of one right now and that is Yang Jwing-Ming. However before I am jumped on I do know that most of his Qinna comes from White Crane but he has worked a lot on Qinna applications by themselves.

Also if you can find someone that has training in Non-sports Sanshou/Sanda (the police/Military version) there is a lot of Qinna in that as well. 

By the way what country are you in?


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## jdinca (Dec 26, 2006)

Second degree bb in our system deals quite heavily in chin na. We learned a couple of techniques on our last instructor workout. It's very humbling when a proper flip of the wrist puts you face down on the mat and you wish you could have gotten there sooner...


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## pstarr (Dec 26, 2006)

The system that I teach, Yiliquan, employs 36 throws and 18 chin-na techniques- all Chinese styles utilize chin-na to some degree.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 27, 2006)

Thats true, we have 72 chin na techniques in the 7 star system as well.


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## Ronnin (Dec 29, 2006)

other then chin na, which style has the most locks, bone and muscle manipulation ?


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## Dale Dugas (Dec 30, 2006)

Shuai Jiao has a lot of locks that are built into the grabbing and throwing material they use to destroy people.

Real shuai is nasty to use as you throw people on their heads or into or off things and break them.  keer bamm....

I agree with Shifu Starr, Chin na is in all systems and materials.  Some people do not like them as they are leverage based and small people are not going to be able to crank big people around unless they have trained a superior grip strength among other things.

Shifu Starr, Happy New Year! and a belated Merry Christmas!

Be well,


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## 7starmantis (Dec 30, 2006)

Dale Dugas said:


> Shuai Jiao has a lot of locks that are built into the grabbing and throwing material they use to destroy people.
> 
> Real shuai is nasty to use as you throw people on their heads or into or off things and break them.  keer bamm....
> 
> ...



I agree with your analysis of real Shuai, very much so! 

I dont agree on the leveraged based analysis of Chin Na though. Having a good understanding of catching a persons "center" allows chin na to be performed without the need for superior grip strength.

JMHO, 7sm


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## Dale Dugas (Dec 31, 2006)

catching a persons center?

most chin na is based on manipulating the body/body parts against their natural range of motion. Wouldnt you want to train whole body power as well as sensitivity in order to be able to perform these actions no matter what, rather than leave it to "catching the person's center".

I train so that when and what I touch I unbalance the person and displace them, whether subtley or overtly depends on what is happening.  Sometimes I grab and twist using whole body mechanics.  I do not rely on one thing but many.

Sorry that I didnt include this before.

Chin na is a whole body coordination that most fail to understand and just twist and crank.  twist, crank and get their whole body off balance as you mentioned and you own their ****.

be well,

Dale Dugas


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 31, 2006)

I'm a small person and learned some very basic chin na techniques when I was training Sil Lum. I had no problem controlling a larger person with a joint lock. I think the greater problem you'd run into is not size, but an opponents flexibility.


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## Dale Dugas (Dec 31, 2006)

You had better be using "whole body" power as well as being able to intiate the movement or use a distractional impact before someone larger and stronger has latched on.  

Its very hard if not down right impossible for anyone small to pull off some of the chin na being taught against bigger stronger and determined people without training other modalities.  Im not saying it cannot be done.  Im saying my wife who is all of 5 foot tall is not going to be able to crank me at will.  Too much mass to compensate for is not physically realistic.

I have taught smaller people(me being 6'2 and 280 pounds at the moment) to be able to arm bar me, but some of the wrist wraps(needle at sea bottom or Shao Tran, Snake wraps the pillar) are hard if they do not get the person unbalanced before they are set in their grappling.

JT, you do South Mantis.  Famous for breaking whatever is thrown and beating people down until blood flows.  Add that gow choy to your Chin Na/Kam Na and you become even worse to deal with as you are not only grabbing and hurting you are smashing and breaking.  Great stuff!

Strength training is overlooked nowadays.  Chin na being one aspect that needs a strong specific training to get stronger hands and arms so you can grab and crush when you need to.  Hence bag catching in South Mantis as well as other training to develop iron claw ie a stronger hand all around.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 31, 2006)

Dale Dugas said:


> You had better be using "whole body" power as well as being able to intiate the movement or use a distractional impact before someone larger and stronger has latched on.
> 
> Its very hard if not down right impossible for anyone small to pull off some of the chin na being taught against bigger stronger and determined people without training other modalities. Im not saying it cannot be done. Im saying my wife who is all of 5 foot tall is not going to be able to crank me at will. Too much mass to compensate for is not physically realistic.
> 
> ...


 
Not really disputing anything being said here but my wife is about 5'3" tall and I have little doubt if I did anything close to trying to lock her she would drop me like a sack of potatoes. 

Also Dr Yang, a few years back, during a push hand seminar lightly applied pressure to 2 points on either side of my elbow and stopped me cold. 

I told this to my wife years later and she said, "you mean here" same reaction, stopped me cold. 

There are qinna locks that require strength but there are qinna locks and points that require finesse too. You have to know EXACTLY where and how to apply them. Remember there is an awful lot to qinna


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 31, 2006)

Dale Dugas said:


> Strength training is overlooked nowadays.



I couldn't agree more. One thing I love about my current South Mantis training is the heavy emphasis on strength training and conditioning. I can say without a doubt that component is not overlooked in my current training. It was however, overlooked to a degree in my prior Sil Lum training. I trained on my own outside the kwoon to keep myself in good physical condition, but inside the kwoon, aside from horse stances, the conditioning was little more than some jumping jacks, push-ups, sit-ups, etc. as more of a warm-up than anything.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 1, 2007)

Dale Dugas said:


> catching a persons center?
> 
> most chin na is based on manipulating the body/body parts against their natural range of motion. Wouldnt you want to train whole body power as well as sensitivity in order to be able to perform these actions no matter what, rather than leave it to "catching the person's center".
> 
> ...



Reading this post and the ones after, I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but either way I wouldn't consider "catching a person's center" as simple, "one thing" or something you are "leaving it to". If you do not have the person's center (ie. unbalanced them, "displaced" them) you are relying on your strength which is incorrect in my opinion. It will still work 9 times out of 10, but someone with great sensitivity and feel will escape and turn them on you everytime. The best/worst chin na are those that reach their apex while your balance is out of your own control. Those are the most dangerous as well. Many time you can use the chin na to catch the person's center, but without it your simply forcing a technique  that could be much more effective done properly.

JMHO,
 7sm


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## Jade Tigress (Jan 1, 2007)

7starmantis said:


> Reading this post and the ones after, I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me, but either way I wouldn't consider "catching a person's center" as simple, "one thing" or something you are "leaving it to". If you do not have the person's center (ie. unbalanced them, "displaced" them) you are relying on your strength which is incorrect in my opinion. It will still work 9 times out of 10, but someone with great sensitivity and feel will escape and turn them on you everytime. The best/worst chin na are those that reach their apex while your balance is out of your own control. Those are the most dangerous as well. Many time you can use the chin na to catch the person's center, but without it your simply forcing a technique  that could be much more effective done properly.
> 
> JMHO,
> 7sm



I understand what you're saying Adam. We were taught to "take the person's center".


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## Brother John (Jan 3, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are qinna locks that require strength but there are qinna locks and points that require finesse too. You have to know EXACTLY where and how to apply them. Remember there is an awful lot to qinna


VERY well said Xue!

When looking into Qinna/Chin-Na it's easy to get the idea that you've seen it all. But the deeper you look, the more you realize you have SO much more to learn.
There's an awful LOT to Qinna!

Your Brother
John


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