# Some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting a boxer or skilled street fighter?



## moonhill99 (Mar 19, 2015)

I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.

*Not because kung fu and karate style is bad,* it is the fighting style is so different.

Many other people talk about fighting range and distance is very different.

Like wing chun you almost at the person face.Where a boxer would hit you *before you got into fighting range*. Likewise some karate like Okinawan karate.

A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into *fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.*


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## Drose427 (Mar 19, 2015)

Early kickboxing.

Pretty self explanatory.

No further training was needed then

Karate guys held their owm against boxers MT, etc.


Even in MMA, karate guys have outstruck other styles, its fairly common.

Because its MMA they had learn more grappling, to stop grappling at least, but yeah.

The only time the "style v style" argument has merit Is grapplin v striking. But their 2 completely different methods, so thats apples to oranges...

When your talking the same methods, (striking v striking, grappling v grappling) its a wildcard.

Depends entirely on the people


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 19, 2015)

LET'S  GET THIS THREAD ROLLING....
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One of the all time massive karate FAILS of all time.....  Classic for the MT > Karate believers.....

EDIT: Can someone please post the gif version.... thx.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 19, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> ...A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into *fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.*


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Nice theory, not quite how it works.  My vid post above, Machida gets clonked by Rua inside typical boxing range.  Agreed?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting boxer, ...


Assume we just talk about dealing with boxer only. If a boxer tries to knock his opponent down while his opponent tries to get into clinch ASAP and take the boxer down, who will have better chance to succeed? In 10 rounds of those matches, how many rounds that the boxer can knock his opponent down before his opponent can take him down?

IMO, the grappling art always has advantage over the striking art. If you can't knock your opponent down ASAP, your opponent's clinch and take down may prevent you from having any chance to strike again.

In some full contact matches, you just don't see "knock down/out" happen very often. What does that mean? To me, it means to take your opponent down is easier than to knock him down.


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## Dinkydoo (Mar 20, 2015)

Here we go again. 

I can't speak for Karate (though I'd imagine the same applies), its not so much 'what you train' but rather 'how you train'.

The styles of Kung Fu I've had some time in make heavy use of trapping. If you only train to deal with attacks from people who are stepping through with a punch, without a good level of contact and directed aggression, who are leaving their arm out there for you to hold and aren't following up with a number of hard and fast strikes as you attempt to trap/deal with some of the strikes, you're going to have a really hard time applying what you've been training against a variety of arts that train to throw hard and fast flurries of strikes every session - boxing, kickboxing, muay thai.....to name a few.

The OP's comment about fighting ranges is an interesting one and this certainly can apply to the style. The key here is that you don't get overly reliant on fighting someone who is willing to stand there and play the same game as yourself. To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios - this is where 2 person drills and bunkai can be particularly useful in developing the muscle memory to deal with that. If your brave you can try sparring with different styles in a more freestyle (safe) environment. You'll take some heavy shots, definitely, but I found it to be quite humbling and I've learned a lot through doing this.

If you're a smaller person like me (5'8) then you'll no doubt be working on ranges quite a lot anyway.


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## moonhill99 (Mar 20, 2015)

Dinkydoo said:


> The OP's comment about fighting ranges is an interesting one and this certainly can apply to the style. The key here is that you don't get overly reliant on fighting someone who is willing to stand there and play the same game as yourself. To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios - this is where 2 person drills and bunkai can be particularly useful in developing the muscle memory to deal with that. If your brave you can try sparring with different styles in a more freestyle (safe) environment. You'll take some heavy shots, definitely, but I found it to be quite humbling and I've learned a lot through doing this.
> 
> If you're a smaller person like me (5'8) then you'll no doubt be working on ranges quite a lot anyway.




But can wing chun work at different fighting ranges? Because it is close fighting range.

A boxer or Muay Thai fights longer fighting range.

A Okinawan karate works at very close fighting ranges.


*To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios*

But can wing chun or Okinawan karate do that?Does the style and training allow for that.


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## moonhill99 (Mar 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> LET'S  GET THIS THREAD ROLLING....
> |
> 
> 
> ...



I don't why that guy tried to fight but looking at video again he was not even trying to fight back.

I have seen street fights with no martial arts training fight better than this.The guy never hit back it like he froze up.

What type of karate is that? A karate style that is mostly 90% kicks.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> What type of karate is that? A karate style that is mostly 90% kicks.



Nought to do with the style and all to do with the fighter.


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## qianfeng (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.
> 
> *Not because kung fu and karate style is bad,* it is the fighting style is so different.
> 
> ...



It's probably because those kung fu/karate people don't have much sparring experience and aren't used to fighting. Karate isn't short ranged is it? It has quite a few kicks.
Kung fu vs Boxing


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> But can wing chun work at different fighting ranges? Because it is close fighting range.
> 
> A boxer or Muay Thai fights longer fighting range.
> 
> ...



I am not familiar with any type of kung fu, Muay Thai, or even Okinaway karate.  But Hapkido, one of the grappling arts, can work at long or short distances.  We tend to move into an attack.  We may trap or grab to a grapple, and may combine a strike or kick along with a block.  It depends on many things.  There is one thing about moving into an attack that I don't usually see people mention.  You have to be both fast and accurate.  Otherwise you have put yourself where your opponent couldn't have hoped to find you, right in his sphere of power.  But the speed and accuracy will do much to confuse and damage an opponent if done well.

Hapkido, and I would assume most grappling arts, have long range kicks as well as short range kicks.  We tend to use grapples that move us out of the way of an opponent's counter strikes and kicks, or prevent the opponent from even using one.

So as said above, level of ability probably has more to do with success than style.  Level of experience with another art can also be helpful.  Some MA use different feints, and if you aren't used to them, you can get suckered more easily, but your counter to the feint may prevent your opponent's completion.  Again, mostly depending on the different abilities of the two opponents.


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## Tez3 (Mar 20, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> level of ability probably has more to do with success than style.



Absolutely, I wish people would remember this. Also there are in all styles some people who have a natural talent for fighting and these will rise like cream to the top. Hard work gets you there too but when you have a combination of talent and hard work you got a damn good fighter whatever the style.


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## Dinkydoo (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> But can wing chun work at different fighting ranges? Because it is close fighting range.
> 
> A boxer or Muay Thai fights longer fighting range.
> 
> ...



The style and training should allow for that. In my very limited experience of Wing Chun we placed a lot of emphasis  on footwork when transitioning to a closer position.

A Wing Chun fighter is more likely to close the gap to meet and then deal with an attack - and a good WC practitioner certainly won't 'break' their WC in order to stand back and fight at the distance say, a Northern Mantis practitioner might.


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## Jenna (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> A boxer would hit Okinawan karate person before they got into *fighting range to do any moves on the boxer.*


Which kind of boxing do you mean, normal Queensbury rules? or Chinese boxing or Thai or some other?  I do not understand what you mean a boxer would "hit"?? so what is a hit among lots thrown in a match? In this instance karateka will naturally block a boxer strike.. and? then what? surely you are not suggesting there is some thing to be judged or deduced or concluded from this single "hit"? 

You do not think maybe your appraisal is over simplistic and has little relation to any thing in real world? Jx


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## Mephisto (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.
> 
> *Not because kung fu and karate style is bad,* it is the fighting style is so different.
> 
> ...


Where did you read this? What's your source? I'm sure there are also boxers and street fighters that have done poorly against Kung fu and karate practitioners. That being said, I'd say statistically it's probably easier to find a good boxing school than it is to find a good Kung fu school. Unless you're talking cardio boxing, all boxing gyms that train fighters will spar, and spar hard. This is not the case for all Kung fu or karate schools, some may spar hard but it's not the same standard as boxing. Kf and karate may have other "sparring" like drills in place of hard sparring where less contact is used and other attributes are developed. These sparring drills are good for attribute building but they can't replace hard sparring.


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## Mephisto (Mar 20, 2015)

Jenna said:


> Which kind of boxing do you mean, normal Queensbury rules? or Chinese boxing or Thai or some other?  I do not understand what you mean a boxer would "hit"?? so what is a hit among lots thrown in a match? In this instance karateka will naturally block a boxer strike.. and? then what? surely you are not suggesting there is some thing to be judged or deduced or concluded from this single "hit"?
> 
> You do not think maybe your appraisal is over simplistic and has little relation to any thing in real world? Jx


The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

More money in boxing so there is better people doing it and more time spent making it good.

If you had karate guys earning a million dollars per fight. You would eventually have some red hot karate.


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2015)

I think in the sports fighting environment there are more gyms dedicated to producing exceptional fighters. So they start with better stock and then gear the training towards talented fighters. So instead of slowing the class down to accommodate the hobbyist you get serious fighters with serious fighters.


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## oftheherd1 (Mar 20, 2015)

oftheherd1 said:


> ...
> There is one thing about moving into an attack that I don't usually see people mention.  You have to be both fast and accurate.  Otherwise you have put yourself where your opponent couldn't have hoped to find you, right in his sphere of power.  But the speed and accuracy will do much to confuse and damage an opponent if done well.
> ...
> We tend to use grapples that move us out of the way of an opponent's counter strikes and kicks, or prevent the opponent from even using one.
> ...





Mephisto said:


> *The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack.* They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.



I don't know about Karate, but I know TKD practitioners often use a flurry of punches and kicks, just as a boxer might, except if you are talking about traditional boxing, as I think you are, the traditional boxer won't kick.  Also note in the upper bolded area above, that sometimes your counter will prevent your opponent from striking or kicking you even if he wants to.


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## Jenna (Mar 20, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.


Understand what you are saying thank you.. I did not wish to do disservice to practitioner of karate as to me I have seen example of very proficient and dynamic karate that is far from kata and could block combos  Understand what you are saying though  Jx


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Early kickboxing.
> 
> Pretty self explanatory.
> 
> ...





moonhill99 said:


> I don't why that guy tried to fight but looking at video again he was not even trying to fight back.
> 
> *I have seen street fights with no martial arts training fight better than this.The guy never hit back it like he froze up.*_
> 
> *What type of karate is that? A karate style that is mostly 90% kicks.*_


_
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DROSE427 & MOONHILL99, CAN YOU TAKE A LOOK @ THIS FOR ME....


ShotoNoob said:



			LET'S  GET THIS THREAD ROLLING....
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One of the all time massive karate FAILS of all time.....  Classic for the MT > Karate believers.....

EDIT: Can someone please post the gif version.... thx.
		
Click to expand...


>> MoonHill's Quote was directed @ my post as Quoted Above.  MMA pro's please chime in...._


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## Hanzou (Mar 20, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> It's probably because those kung fu/karate people don't have much sparring experience and aren't used to fighting. Karate isn't short ranged is it? It has quite a few kicks.
> Kung fu vs Boxing



I didn't know that boxers kicked... 






A bit more indicative of reality.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.



It isnt just kyukushin, thats how all styles block in free sparring


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## moonhill99 (Mar 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> LET'S  GET THIS THREAD ROLLING....
> |
> 
> 
> ...





*ShotoNoob* a better one would be.


All three did really badly with a ‪boxer.‬


‪boxing vs karate‬





‪Karate v Boxing‬





‪karate‬ vs skilled street fighter fighting






None of ‪Karate did good.Not sure what type of ‪Karate or style is that and if that was the reason they did so bad.


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## moonhill99 (Mar 20, 2015)

*The OP's comment about fighting ranges is an interesting one and this certainly can apply to the style. *

I think that is why some of karate or kung fu do not do well fighting a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter or in MMA. The fighting range is very different.

*  To do this you should work at transitioning to your most favourable range from a variety of positions and scenarios - *

But can this work or would get hit before you got into your
favorable range because a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter will fight at other range you not use to or you have little to no training on that fighting range.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> *The OP's comment about fighting ranges is an interesting one and this certainly can apply to the style. *
> 
> I think that is why some of karate or kung fu do not do well fighting a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter or in MMA. The fighting range is very different.
> 
> ...



Well the second videi has nothing to do with karate...  

But, again, in the purest form kickboxing shows quite the contrary.

Many,many,many, karate guys have taken on MT and Boxers successfully. 

Andy Hug, Benny the Jet, Superfoots, etc.

Benny the Jet took on a couple Muay Thai guys. 2 notable matches, he lost one by decision after 9 rounds (i believe 9)and the other was declared no contest because after a point deduction on the thai fighter started a riot....

Even in UFC, the sqme affwct has happened. You posted a video of machidas karate not doing as well, but you can find 10 more of him outstriking many fighters with it.

Same with GSP.

Karate specifically fights close and far range striking. As does TSD and TKD.


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## Blindside (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Early kickboxing.
> 
> Pretty self explanatory.
> 
> ...



Actually my understanding was that the 8 kick minimum per round rule was introduced in the PKA circuit because boxers nobody had ever heard about were showing up and winning tournaments.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

Blindside said:


> Actually my understanding was that the 8 kick minimum per round rule was introduced in the PKA circuit because boxers nobody had ever heard about were showing up and winning tournaments.



Ive heard this once before but it was from a boxer

I know in some weightclasses it was the same guys winning events, superfoot for PKA, Joe Lewis had it for a long time, Benny the jet was undefeated for really long streaks (although i think he was later in ghe life of PKA) so while it could have happened in some weight classes, idk if it was commonly happening.

Regardless, we still see big karate guys knocking out boxers in MMA if they keep the match standing.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> *ShotoNoob* a better one would be.
> 
> 
> All three did really badly with a ‪boxer.‬
> ...


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Yeah, I see what you mean.....

BTW: That wasn't my question....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks.


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What did you do to formulate this position?  Sounds like run-of-mill MMA speak...


Mephisto said:


> Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.





Drose427 said:


> It isnt just kyukushin, thats how all styles block in free sparring


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You mean how all SPORT karate styles TYPICALLY block in free sparring...


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> What did you do to formulate this position?  Sounds like run-of-mill MMA speak...
> 
> |
> You mean how all SPORT karate styles TYPICALLY block in free sparring...



No how traditional Styles block in free sparring too....... Both Japanese and Okinawan....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> No how traditional Styles block in free sparring too....... Both Japanese and Okinawan....


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Oh, I see where you are coming from.  I'll have to find an example....
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BTW: How about the vid I posted (2:20pm) & asked you about.  No 1 liners Please....


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Oh, I see where you are coming from.  I'll have to find an example....
> |
> BTW: How about the vid I posted (2:20pm) & asked you about.  No 1 liners Please....



I did respond....One video of Machida not making it work is irrelevant when he has 20 other fights where he does...


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Well the second videi has nothing to do with karate...
> 
> But, again, in the purest form kickboxing shows quite the contrary.
> 
> ...


Hey, Hanzou has called me out on my belief in karate.


Hanzou said:


> Well there's also the fact that every pure traditional karate fighter has done nothing but embarrass themselves on the MMA/NHB circuit....


I
Hope you can lend a hand here....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I did respond....One video of Machida not making it work is irrelevant when he has 20 other fights where he does...


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I can't find your reply specific to my vid post.  Maybe you commented for another post?  Please point out your reply.


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## qianfeng (Mar 20, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> *ShotoNoob* a better one would be.
> 
> 
> All three did really badly with a ‪boxer.‬
> ...



Well the first one is white belt with a shirt that says taekwonddo and what's up with their kicks? They look so soft while the boxers punching hard...


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## qianfeng (Mar 20, 2015)

He 


Hanzou said:


> I didn't know that boxers kicked...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He could have picked it up somewhere.... He was getting beat close range anyway, why are u nitpicking


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> Well the first one is white belt with a shirt that says taekwonddo and what's up with their kicks? They look so soft while the boxers punching hard...



Some schools dont spar hard, others do.

It really doesnt have anything to do with governing bodies and associations, its the instructors call.

Some schools who have overhead and other expenses will change contact level to be more appeal to parents bringing their kids in.

We've had parents look at their 8 year olds and say suck it up.
My instructors have also made parents made by having the kids keep sparring over a gutshot.

But, my schools not for profit. Losing students wont hurt us like it would schools that need the revenue.



qianfeng said:


> He
> 
> He could have picked it up somewhere.... He was getting beat close range anyway, why are u nitpicking



He tends to do that with anything that isnt BJJ or MT, to each their own.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> Well the first one is white belt with a shirt that says taekwonddo and what's up with their kicks? They look so soft while the boxers punching hard...


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Kinda like point sparring against full contact.  Makes for a good demo.


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## donald1 (Mar 20, 2015)

My opinion, I disagree because it depends on whos fighting. a good karate or kung fu practitioner can well handle their self yes even against "street fighter"


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.


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Here, a mixed martial artist who agrees with your assessment.  He points out how vulnerable wing chun is against the boxer.



  Funny thing though, he has your theme switched. He says Wing chun is good for close-in.  He says boxing is better @ distance.
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He says Wing Chun fails in closing the distance.  Thoughts?
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BTW: I'm ignoring the 'FRAUD' label because I have seen & heard his exact criticism times before.  Not sure if the label is referring to the Wing chun instructor or the 'boxer' opponent.





Drose427 said:


> It isnt just kyukushin, thats how all styles block in free sparring


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OH, just wanted to add your TMA guard point.  the vids shows the boxer opponent flying right by the classical wing chun guard.  So this is a great demonstration of what you said about "keeping hands up."


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## RTKDCMB (Mar 21, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> *ShotoNoob* a better one would be.
> 
> 
> All three did really badly with a ‪boxer.‬



Lets analyze them a bit shall we?

‪





moonhill99 said:


> boxing vs karate‬



Needs more context;

1) Was the video a highlight reel for the Boxer?

2) Were they the only three fights he won and he lost the next ten?

3) Was he a Boxer with 15 years of experience against Karate guys with only one or two?

4) Was the first fighter taking on the boxer a Karate guy or a Kickboxer, or something else?

You can't just look at a couple of fights between people you have never seen before and conclude the art of whoever lost the fight is useless. That would be a Hasty Generalization.

‪





moonhill99 said:


> Karate v Boxing‬



There was no mention of Karate anywhere in that video. There wasn't even any mention of Boxing. The one punch that was thrown could have come from any number of arts. The so called Karate guy did not appear to have had any training at all.

‪





moonhill99 said:


> karate‬ vs skilled street fighter fighting



The Karate girl in that video did a lot better than the skilled street fighter did. If it were scored she would have won on points. The video itself clearly says "there was no winner".

If you want to show the superiority of Boxing you need much better examples.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 21, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> Lets analyze them a bit shall we?
> ‪
> [Edit]Video #1[Edit]
> Needs more context;
> ...


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Thanks for chiming in: Here's my add-on to what you analyzed:
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Video #1: Highlight Reel for the Boxer(s).
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Video #2: No additional comment.
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Video #3: I made a T_I_C comment about girls doing self defense demonstration against men @  another T.  Clearly the Karate girl is @ numerous disadvantages physically against her male 'street fighter' opponent.  Kudo's to her for taking on the challenge, that's my overall response....
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If I had to pick a winner, I'd pick the male street fighter.  I think some of the comments about rule sets for different fighting styles should also be brought into the decision.  Under Shotokan point fighting kumite , she as you say could well have won.  I'm not a point fighter so I'll defer....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 21, 2015)

edit


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 21, 2015)

My thought on this vs that or mine vs yours, etc.,  You tube is a poor place to find any proof of such claims because you can pretty much find the right video to prove your point if you look hard enough. 
If this thread was boxers do not do well against "X" I am sure there  would be videos out there somewhere to prove it.  
Each art has things it dose well and those it dose not and thus they have opponents that they might lose to or win against. These threads prove nothing other than you can find anything on the net


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## moonhill99 (Mar 21, 2015)

I think Shotokan ‪Karate‬











Or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬ would do better it uses more kicks and fights and different ranges.

Also more higher kicks in Shotokan ‪Karate or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬.


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## Shai Hulud (Mar 21, 2015)

We get these a lot. It boils down to training. There's a lot of underlying techniques in Kung Fu forms and Karate kata's, and it's not necessarily that you use _all of them _every time. Like research work, you break the "textbooks" down, single out what you need (in relation to the rest of the material of course) and drill it until you sweat buckets.

If your school focuses on form demonstration, then yes you may have some trouble when you finally have no other option but to engage in the streets. However if you regularly drill (not necessarily sparring) for specific situations in self-defense as the old timers did, I think that you'll fare a lot better.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 21, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> My thought on this vs that or mine vs yours, etc.,  You tube is a poor place to find any proof of such claims because you can pretty much find the right video to prove your point if you look hard enough....


|
I think you can learn to discern the wheat from the chaff.  It's really the value of a forum to the individual.  Looked up some of the associates of Drose427 new gym.  Learned a bit from YT there.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 21, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think Shotokan ‪Karate‬
> [Edit] Vids [Edit]
> |
> Or kyukoshin ‪Karate‬ would do better it uses more kicks and fights and different ranges.
> ...


|
Thanks for posting those vids.  Personally I am neither a fan of Shotokan or KYO.
|
*At the same time, I felt your 1st Shotokan vid discloses the rigor with which Shotokan is to be practiced.*  Contrast this to Wonderboy's Open Workout YT vid demo just prior the his Matt Brown UFC fight, which Wonderboy lost....  I note the Wonderboy (karate) vs. Brown (MT) @ UFC 145 for the MMA aficionados. Thanks again for that great example of Shotokan.
|
Looking @ Kyokushin as a teaching karate, I feel the big lesson is to be prepared for full contact.  >> Don't get caught up in the sport karate conventions of speed-points, dancing around & reaction times alone.  I just don't like how modern Kyo goes about refuting that.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Secondly, I think it was Danny T who said it was important to distinguish between a demonstration/ pure teaching vid, and real-time practice vid.  Again, your posting helped us along in that regard.
|
Final note, your vids point out that Shotokan done seriously, learning & concentrating on using one's whole body into the technique in an aggressive, yet disciplined way, IS NO PUSHOVER. 

IMO, Posters should look to the type of intensive training which you provided examples of....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 22, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I think that is why some of karate or kung fu do not do well fighting a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter or in MMA. The fighting range is very different.
> 
> But can this work or would get hit before you got into your
> favorable range because a boxer, Muay Thai or skilled street fighter will fight at other range you not use to or you have little to no training on that fighting range.


|
I would say that is exactly your theme shown in the street fighter vs. karate girl vid.  She exhibits more towards the pure sport fighting convention of dart in & dart out, hitting with a speed shot on way in.  Once inside & her speed shot/ combo is spent, street fighter grabs, stuffs, counter strikes around her moves....
|
People look at what she does as indicative of Shotokan kumite point fighting--you will see the better Shotokan fighters at tournaments prepared to do more than the conventional, basic sortie in & out type exchange.  The Shotokan karate syllabus is chocked with far more than, "jump-in with speed shot /or/ snap out speed kick and back off" routine.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 22, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I have read mix reviews that some kung fu and karate do not do well fighting MMA fighter, boxer, Muay Thai, skilled street fighter.
> 
> *Not because kung fu and karate style is bad,* it is the fighting style is so different.
> 
> ...




Look into students of Mss Oyama fighting Muay Thai people


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## K-man (Mar 22, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> The problem with karate blocks that I've seen is they can be slow and difficult to execute against a combination attack. They also seem like they'd be hard to pull off against an opponent that is in a tight range like a boxer that moves in tight and throws hooks. Of course kyukoshin seems to use a tight cover much like a boxers, so it's reasonable to assume other versions of karate have a similiar approach.


And herein lies the truth of karate 'blocks'. They aren't blocks and if you try to use them as blocks against someone with boxing experience you will be hit. That is why Kyokushin use the boxer-like cover and why you don't see 'karate blocks' in top class tournaments.


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## Danny T (Mar 22, 2015)

In total agreement K-man unfortunately there are many who have not been taught this. They call it a block so it must be a block. They are not blocks they are attacks, parries, controlling actions.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> And herein lies the truth of karate 'blocks'. They aren't blocks and if you try to use them as blocks against someone with boxing experience you will be hit. That is why Kyokushin use the boxer-like cover and why you don't see 'karate blocks' in top class tournaments.


|
Again, this is an over-generalization.  The Master I am working with on developing a Karate for MMA program @ our organization used to believe as you.  I have shown him otherwise.  Other traditional karate sites, TMA cover this issue.
|
Kyo didn't originally use the boxer cover.  Kyo drew so many types who want to do full contact sparring and moved away from the traditional Shotokan-type curriculum.  So they went to the more practical boxer-like cover because it was reactive, easier to learn & use.
|
The Japanese karate blocks are sound when practiced to standards, the "mental clarity" standard.  And secondly, employed in the proper technical way.  A lapse in either of these, and the Japanese traditional karate blocks are a disaster.  But that's because you have an unskilled individual attempting to use them....
|
I understand the Okinawans may well have intended blocks to be strikes, or double as strikes.  In the fundamentals sense though, blocks are blocks.  Taking them to the striking application is an advanced technical area, IMO.
\
Many, many karateka are caught up in the conventions of sport karate, kickboxing, etc.  Neither of these is traditional karate.


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## K-man (Mar 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |The Japanese karate blocks are sound when practiced to standards, the "mental clarity" standard.  And secondly, employed in the proper technical way.  A lapse in either of these, and the Japanese traditional karate blocks are a disaster.  But that's because you have an unskilled individual attempting to use them....
> 
> I understand the Okinawans may well have intended blocks to be strikes, or double as strikes.  In the fundamentals sense though, blocks are blocks.  Taking them to the striking application is an advanced technical area, IMO.


I have yet to find a person that can use a proper karate 'block' to stop a proper punch from fighting range. Karate came from Kung fu and the principle of deflect and attack in the same movement is the core of all the 'blocks'. There is enough material in the public domain for all who are interested. But just one question. Why would you ever want to just stop (block) an attack? That just precipitates the next attack and you need to keep blocking until you have the opportunity to attack. It defies belief that karate would be the only martial art to embrace that concept.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> I have yet to find a person that can use a proper karate 'block' to stop a proper punch from fighting range.


|
When you have trained & observed pure traditionalists, there are those who can actually block.  Is the traditional way of karate blocking common in competition fighting?  NOOOOOO.  So I am in concert with your view when it comes to convention.  Convention is


K-man said:


> Karate came from Kung fu and the principle of deflect and attack in the same movement is the core of all the 'blocks'. There is enough material in the public domain for all who are interested.


|
The application you speak is a part of the Chinese kung way, but it does not define traditional Chinese Kung fu blocking.  My first TMA instructor taught what I am stating.... as did his Master, as did his Master from China.  My definition encompasses your application, but goes beyond.



K-man said:


> But just one question. Why would you ever want to just stop (block) an attack? That just precipitates the next attack and you need to keep blocking until you have the opportunity to attack. It defies belief that karate would be the only martial art to embrace that concept.


|
Well, it depends on the situation.  Of course everyone should agree that the type of hand striking & simultaneous blocking shown by say Wing Chun is better effectiveness.  *Yet not all can excel to YOUR level.*  There's loads written about Wing Chun FAIL in MMA. On the contrary, I think good Wing Chun would absolutely destroy a Shogun Rua.  Based on my experience, I think REAL Wing Chun is very difficult to obtain.  That's why I advocate Shotokan for MMA, it's more fundamental, less complicated.  A KISS karate if you will.  As the potential of the style, Shotokan karate pales against Wing Chun.
|
People are so eager to be the 1st to excel @ TMA that they fail to build a foundation on TMA principles.  The marital strategy of a block is DEFENSE.  The martial strategy of a strike is OFFENSE.  In the 1st instance, I stop harm to myself.  In the 2nd, I harm my assailant.  This is one of the great lessons (IMO) of Funakoshi's Karate-Jutsu.  SIMPLIFY & ACHIEVE, vs complicate & fail.
|
Now to the a simple fighting Kihon combo.  Block, stops the attack: then counter strike, disable the attacker.  You end up unharmed, the assailant is disabled.  It's a simple TMA thesis.
|
What is the status of blocking across the gamut of TMA practice?  Mediocre to HORRENDOUS.  Various karate traditional masters bemoan this all the time.


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## K-man (Mar 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |Well, it depends on the situation.  Of course everyone should agree that the type of hand striking & simultaneous blocking shown by say Wing Chun is better effectiveness.  *Yet not all can excel to YOUR level.*  There's loads written about Wing Chun FAIL in MMA. On the contrary, I think good Wing Chun would absolutely destroy a Shogun Rua.  Based on my experience, I think REAL Wing Chun is very difficult to obtain.  That's why I advocate Shotokan for MMA, it's more fundamental, less complicated.  A KISS karate if you will.  As the potential of the style, Shotokan karate pales against Wing Chun.


Perhaps we can cut the crap of *YOUR level*. I teach this to white belts from day one. We train kihon but they learn the application from the beginning. As to what you advocate for MMA, I wouldn't know as it is nothing to do with my mindset or training. I'm talking about the training you need to be safe in your own environment.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

TANG SOO DO--DEFENSE STRIKE:
|
Some new poster was looking into TKD, another mentioned TSD.  Go I YT'd the latter with combo.
|
The TSD Master calls this "Fighting Combo #1."  Kihon karate presents this @ beginner level.  Simple application strategy.




|
Note, the vid shows K-man's (cut-the-crap) application.  It shoud be apparent I'm presenting a balanced view of both sides.... guess not.
|
The point is the strike follows on immediately on the block.  Hence in the block-defense scenario, the exchange is presumably ended by the reverse punch in this straight forward depiction.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> Perhaps we can cut the crap of *YOUR level*. I teach this to white belts from day one. We train kihon but they learn the application from the beginning. As to what you advocate for MMA, I wouldn't know as it is nothing to do with my mindset or training. I'm talking about the training you need to be safe in your own environment.


|
Well on the MMA, I like to think of karate working in that environment.... have posted on my support for same.
|
This isn't an ego battle.  There's plenty a karate practitioner in my area including my school who feel other arts are too difficult to become proficient at. So we do a more basic karate style.  Your response is disrespectful to people making practical choices.
|
What you present to your students is sound according to your curriculum.  So go with that.
|
EDIT: Note the TSD stylists in my vid are high ranking senior belts.  I don't see block-breaks in the standard black-belt karate curriculum...


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## punisher73 (Mar 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> I have yet to find a person that can use a proper karate 'block' to stop a proper punch from fighting range. Karate came from Kung fu and the principle of deflect and attack in the same movement is the core of all the 'blocks'. There is enough material in the public domain for all who are interested. But just one question. Why would you ever want to just stop (block) an attack? That just precipitates the next attack and you need to keep blocking until you have the opportunity to attack. It defies belief that karate would be the only martial art to embrace that concept.



I think it's mainly because people don't understand what it is they are trying to accomplish with the movements.  I was always taught that the opposite hand as it "retraces"  and retracts as the main hand "blocks" is where the softer parry movement is.  To use a kenpo term, it is the minor movement before the major.

Second, it's because modern training says it's a "block", which in okinawan karate it was just a movement with application potential, one of which was a block.  You were training multiple applications for one motion.  For example, if the distance is a little bit longer, it is a parry with one hand and then limb destruction with the "blocking hand" to the limb.  If it is closer, it is a trap with the one hand and a hammerfist to the jaw with the "blocking hand".

Lastly, "traditional karate" as it was practiced on Okinawan was designed as a civilian self-defense system.  It assumed a much closer distance than the later japanese style karate that was designed around kendo sword fighting distance.  Trying to implement the close range techniques that it was designed around to a longer distance doesn't always translate well.  This is why in SOME schools of Japanese karate there is a big disconnect between their sparring practices and kata applications.


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## K-man (Mar 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> TANG SOO DO--DEFENSE STRIKE:
> |
> Some new poster was looking into TKD, another mentioned TSD.  Go I YT'd the latter with combo.
> |
> ...


'Cut the crap' was a request to you to stop the personal stuff.

As to this technique, it simply isn't a block. It is a forearm strike followed by a reverse strike and if a video showing it breaking a board doesn't convince you of that then I don't know what would.


ShotoNoob said:


> Well on the MMA, I like to think of karate working in that environment.... have posted on my support for same.


Cool, I have no issue with that. It is just not my scene.


ShotoNoob said:


> This isn't an ego battle.  There's plenty a karate practitioner in my area including my school who feel other arts are too difficult to become proficient at. So we do a more basic karate style.  Your response is disrespectful to people making practical choices.


In time all practitioners should become proficient but if you just practise kihon you will just be a very proficient advanced beginner. There is no disrespect in this comment, just the plain truth. It is no wonder guys like Drop Bear and Hanzou get stuck into karate when people show kihon as advanced training.



ShotoNoob said:


> EDIT: Note the TSD stylists in my vid are high ranking senior belts.  I don't see block-breaks in the standard black-belt karate curriculum...


I don't see  block-breaks anywhere but I do see plenty of soto uchi, gyaku tsuki in basic kihon.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2015)

It is a fairly fundamental concept not restricted to karate.

If you take your hands away from your face you create an opening that they can punch through.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

I found this a Good read....


punisher73 said:


> I think it's mainly because people don't understand what it is they are trying to accomplish with the movements.  I was always taught that the opposite hand as it "retraces"  and retracts as the main hand "blocks" is where the softer parry movement is.  To use a kenpo term, it is the minor movement before the major.


Yes, I believe this is in fact the Kenpo interpretation.  In my style of traditional karate, the blocks are generally hard, however, they are in some terms softer thaN Shotokan karate.  As we get into application in my style, the blocks in certain cases move toward the kenpo principle.
I believe the Kenpo interpretation is the more sophisticated for actual fighting....


punisher73 said:


> Second, it's because modern training says it's a "block", which in okinawan karate it was just a movement with application potential, one of which was a block.  You were training multiple applications for one motion.  For example, if the distance is a little bit longer, it is a parry with one hand and then limb destruction with the "blocking hand" to the limb.  If it is closer, it is a trap with the one hand and a hammerfist to the jaw with the "blocking hand".


Again, this is my understanding to.  I don't practice an Okinawan style per se, so others such as yourself can describe for me / us.  I think this is the point that the TSD Master in the vid is making.  It is consistent with the position of the Master who I am working with.  When I 1st met this Master, he was of K-man's feeling.  But that turned out to be because the students weren't training the "mental clarity" dimension, they were copycatting kickboxing, sport karate (see end note).


punisher73 said:


> Lastly, "traditional karate" as it was practiced on Okinawan was designed as a civilian self-defense system.  It assumed a much closer distance than the later japanese style karate that was designed around kendo sword fighting distance.  Trying to implement the close range techniques that it was designed around to a longer distance doesn't always translate well.  This is why in SOME schools of Japanese karate there is a big disconnect between their sparring practices and kata applications.


Again, I'm following in-line with your ideas.  The problem I see with taking your position 100%, is that it ignores the traditional elements in Shotokan /Japanese karaete that don't go to the extreme of Shotokan point fighting kumite with the extreme distancing.  Even in Shotokan, the OLDER JKA maInly tend to stalk one another, rather than all that hyperactive bouncing all over.... Moreover, and this in some of the vids I've posted (Shotokan), when they do get close, many can engage in infighting.
|
The 'disconnect' you speak is definitely there and it shouldn't be.  There should be an allowance for differences, but not the excessive copycat of conventions that some one came up with to promote karate as a sport.  This is one of my big criticisms of Shotokan, AS COMMONLY PRACTICED.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> 'Cut the crap' was a request to you to stop the personal stuff.


I apologize if that's how it came across.  I was highlighting your level of achievement vs. others or other arts...



K-man said:


> As to this technique, it simply isn't a block. It is a forearm strike followed by a reverse strike and if a video showing it breaking a board doesn't convince you of that then I don't know what would.


I'm not asking you to convince me of anything.  I must sound the same way to you.  Blocks are strikes vs. blocks can be strikes....


K-man said:


> Cool, I have no issue with that. It is just not my scene.


MMA competition  is not mine either.  Yet I have had other students or instructors challenge me & I felt like I was in MMA.


K-man said:


> In time all practitioners should become proficient but if you just practise kihon you will just be a very proficient advanced beginner. There is no disrespect in this comment, just the plain truth. It is no wonder guys like Drop Bear and Hanzou get stuck into karate when people show kihon as advanced training.


In fact, the karate for MMA program we are developing is drawing more interest from students @ our own school who want to move away from the physical practice of karate to the "mental clarity" dimension.



K-man said:


> I don't see  block-breaks anywhere but I do see plenty of soto uchi, gyaku tsuki in basic kihon.



OK.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

K-man said:


> '...
> In time all practitioners should become proficient but if you just practise kihon you will just be a very proficient advanced beginner. There is no disrespect in this comment, just the plain truth. It is no wonder guys like Drop Bear and Hanzou get stuck into karate when people show kihon as advanced training....


|
This is where I think you are wrong.  The way most practice traditional karate, you would be correct.  The way they are practicing is physical.  Repeating physical form.  Kihon technique practiced to traditional principles & standards is sophisticated.  This is in fact where we are starting the small group in our Karate for MMA class.  There are plenty of hard sparring kickboxer-karateka doing the physical.
|
We are doing the mental side from day in our program....  Ties back to my TKD vid above....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is a fairly fundamental concept not restricted to karate.
> 
> If you take your hands away from your face you create an opening that they can punch through.


|
Students who believe this are not in our Karate for MMA class.  This can be found in a bijjion marital art schools of all kind....


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## K-man (Mar 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> This is where I think you are wrong.  The way most practice traditional karate, you would be correct.  The way they are practicing is physical.  Repeating physical form.  Kihon technique practiced to traditional principles & standards is sophisticated.  This is in fact where we are starting the small group in our Karate for MMA class.  There are plenty of hard sparring kickboxer-karateka doing the physical.
> |
> We are doing the mental side from day in our program....  Ties back to my TKD vid above....


Cool, then we have something in common. However, I fail to see what the TKD video has to do with it. Kihon is kihon. To say it is otherwise denies what kihon is ... basics. Once you go beyond that you are no longer practising kihon and the way it looks will change according to the person executing the technique. It can be strong as demonstrated in your video or it might be soft, more like a deflection. The kihon will generally be from a static base, the advanced technique will be from a flexible base. Once you add the mental aspect, well the dynamics change again.


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## moonhill99 (Mar 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I would say that is exactly your theme shown in the street fighter vs. karate girl vid.  She exhibits more towards the pure sport fighting convention of dart in & dart out, hitting with a speed shot on way in.  Once inside & her speed shot/ combo is spent, street fighter grabs, stuffs, counter strikes around her moves....
> |
> People look at what she does as indicative of Shotokan kumite point fighting--you will see the better Shotokan fighters at tournaments prepared to do more than the conventional, basic sortie in & out type exchange.  The Shotokan karate syllabus is chocked with far more than, "jump-in with speed shot /or/ snap out speed kick and back off" routine.



The karate girl did a good job fighting but her defense was bad.  Many times getting knocked over to the ground or the guy grabbing her or pushing her and her not knowing what to do at that point.

Well for the dart in & dart out? If she dart in with sloppy defense and never dart out, well she would be on the ground a lot more or got hit really bad. 

Her defense was bad but her attack much better.


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## moonhill99 (Mar 24, 2015)

These two karate look really awesome and I would not mine training in it.












But get's me to wonder how effective it is fighting a boxer or Muay Thai.

The fighting range is really close and some thing tells me a boxer or Muay Thai would hit the karate person before they came close enough in fighting range to do a move.


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## punisher73 (Mar 24, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> These two karate look really awesome and I would not mine training in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can karate be used  against those styles?  Yes, understanding of the combat principles contained within the kata does give those tools when practiced properly.

BUT, what you are looking at is applications from a traditional kata that was designed in response to a civilian self-defense situation (as opposed to the often cited "made for the battlefield" or other environments).  If you watch "street attacks" or self-defense scenarios, the attacker is usually already closer in, and in range for what the techniques were designed for.  Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter.  They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow.  I have known many "traditional" people beat boxers with snap kicks to the knees to counter their jab and control the distance of the boxer.


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## K-man (Mar 24, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> These two karate look really awesome and I would not mine training in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As *Punisher* said, karate was not designed to fight trained fighters. However, one of the Okinawan bunkai moves shown above I taught to my Krav guys tonight as a means of getting past a boxer's defence. Don't underestimate good karate.


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## punisher73 (Mar 24, 2015)

Just some food for thought.

_“The techniques of kata have their limits and were never intended to be used against an opponent in an arena or on a battlefield.” *– *_*Choki Motobu*
*
*


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> The karate girl did a good job fighting but her defense was bad.  Many times getting knocked over to the ground or the guy grabbing her or pushing her and her not knowing what to do at that point.
> 
> Well for the dart in & dart out? If she dart in with sloppy defense and never dart out, well she would be on the ground a lot more or got hit really bad.
> 
> Her defense was bad but her attack much better.


|
Yeah, that was kind of my assessment too....


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## moonhill99 (Mar 25, 2015)

punisher73 said:


> Can karate be used  against those styles?  Yes, understanding of the combat principles contained within the kata does give those tools when practiced properly.
> *
> BUT, what you are looking at is applications from a traditional kata that was designed in response to a civilian self-defense situation (as opposed to the often cited "made for the battlefield" or other environments)*.  If you watch "street attacks" or self-defense scenarios, the attacker is usually already closer in, and in range for what the techniques were designed for.  Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter.  They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow.  I have known many "traditional" people beat boxers with snap kicks to the knees to counter their jab and control the distance of the boxer.



So what Karate or Kung Fu translate better in MMA or fighting a boxer or Muay Thai?


*Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter.  They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow. *

Is it some thing you can get from Okinawan Karate  or American Kenpo Karate or would you need some other Karate or art to implement it to do this?


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## K-man (Mar 25, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> So what Karate or Kung Fu translate better in MMA or fighting a boxer or Muay Thai?
> 
> 
> *Against, a boxer or Muay Thai person you are going to see more set ups with hands/feet to close the distance and angle the attacks, or even draw an attack and move to the blind spot to counter.  They are not going to just resort to the closer range techniques without bridging the gap somehow. *
> ...


This is one of the problems. In competition you can't wait for someone to come to you because that does't make a spectacle. Regardless of that there is a very good entry technique (that comes from Gekisai kata actually) where you kick and enter with an elbow strike.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

K-man said:


> ...Regardless of that there is a very good entry technique (that comes from Gekisai kata actually) where you kick and enter with an elbow strike.


|
Right....


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## MAfreak (Feb 3, 2016)

i didn't read the whole thread, but an important thing on this topic is, that every beginning boxer learns how to hold his/her hands for a good guard.
even experienced kung fu and karate people don't do it, since they just learn it wrong from the beginning (hikite instead of protecting jaw etc.). also doing forms is much less effective than dowing shadow boxing. these are two examples i would give here.


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