# Congresswoman Giffords Shot in Tucson



## Bill Mattocks

Terrible news.  Really horrible.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html



> A congresswoman from Arizona was shot point blank in the head and killed  on Saturday in a shooting at a public event at a grocery store in  Tucson, according to her spokesman, C. J. Karamargin, and news reports.  Twelve others were injured in the shooting.
> 
> ...
> 
> An employee at a nearby store told CNN that he heard a steady stream of  gun fire that appeared sustained random. Shortly after, emergency  vehicles filled the parking lot around the grocery story and cordoned  off the area.



My prayers for her family and those of the others killed and injured.


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## granfire

Sounds like we lost a brave woman, not afraid to tackle difficult issues.

godspeed.


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## Bill Mattocks

Jesus.  Now I'm reading that a white male in his 20's shot and killed the Congresswoman and a federal judge and his aide in the same shooting.  Both the judge and the Congresswoman were described as having 'enemies' in the Tea Party.

Any comments, Tea Party guys?  I mean, if the shooter were AQ, or an illegal alien, you'd be all over this, right?  Why so quiet?


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## aedrasteia

Bill

hold tight. lets wait for more information. please, no rush to judgement.

Currently listening to a press conference/report that "she is expected to pull through". Her parents

But 6 people have been killed, including a child. 12 or 18  people total shot. Shooter in custody, age 22. Pistol w/extended magazine. 

unspeakably horrible. peace be with these families and victims.
if you pray for comfort, include us all, all of us.

A


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## Bill Mattocks

I'm not rushing to judgment about the shooter or the motives, that information is not yet in.  I'm waiting to hear from the same guys who would not waste a minute proclaiming if the shooter had been middle-eastern in origin or from south of the border...so quiet...where are they?  I guess they don't have that much to say now...still waiting...


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## chrispillertkd

Wow, Bill. Classy.

Pax,

Chris


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## aedrasteia

Sorry, mistype. 

Congresswoman's parents are with her.
I had sent a contribution to her campaign, small but I admired her gumption.

shooter in custody: Jared Laughner age 22, WM, from AZ. w/some minor "run-in's" with law enforcement

dear God, the current Chief Federal Judge in AZ is reported among the dead.

Federal crime/FBI has jurisdiction because of the 2 federal officials.

Physician at hospital reports 10 patients rec'd, 5 in critical condition, 5 in stable condition,
1 dead at hospital, a young child, a 9 year old girl. 

Congresswoman Gifford, was shot in the head, shot went thru her head and exited, she is in intensive care but was responding to commands prior to surgery, MD was "very optomistic" about her recovery, "as optomistic as you can be in this kind of situation".

A


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## Tez3

BBC world news
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12143774

A terrible thing to have happen, thoughts and prayers to all.


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## aedrasteia

Yes Bill. I understand. Its hard.

I have the aching feeling it will get harder with every passing moment

Best (for me and maybe others) to hold the reins on anger and aggression. 

the thing we don't want others to do is the very thing we must resist doing ourselves.
A


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## Andy Moynihan

First off, prayers for those who may make it, and for the families of those who didn't.


Second--No matter your political leanings, if we are finally at the point where it's OK to kill elected officials just because we don't like their politics, then we as a society may just be on the doorstep of that civil war I keep praying never happens. 

 What I find most disturbing is that what SHOULD be happening in any SANE society is that this tragic event should bring persons of all political outlooks together to condemn the use of violence or the threat of violence to persuade ANY political or social agenda. That is the definition of terrorism.

Instead, before the dead have even gone cold, I find, all over the comment boards of these news sites, people on both sides of the political spectrum pointing fingers and making cynical and snide comments. 


We've been heading down this road for a while now. Fear, anger and emotional outbursts have been replacing thought, common sense and rational discourse everywhere especially the media. It doesn't any longer matter which "side" you blame for it, the fact remains and is now undeniable--This country has become unsalvageably polarized and its condition is terminal."They" don't want to live with "Us"(Pick your "us") and "we" don't want to live with" them" (Pick your "them"). The balance cannot hold. This is hardly the "united" States of America anymore, and we are past the point of ever changing this fact.

Face it--_we're doomed_.


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## Bill Mattocks

Shooter in custody is allegedly one 'Jared Lee Loughner'.  There is a Youtube page maintained by someone using that name, also claiming to be from Tucson.  A disordered mind from the looks of it.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10

One of this person's 'favorited' videos is of a US flag being burned in the desert, with heavy metal music playing in the background and some disjointed comments about flags not being allowed in classrooms.

Here is the 'favorited' video:

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/a/f/0/3L1lsLU-kUw

Here is the text of the comment:



> If there's no flag in the constitution then the flag in the film is unknown.
> There's no flag in the constitution.
> Therefore, the flag in the film is unknown.
> Burn every new and old flag that you see.
> Burn your flag!
> I bet you can imagine this in your mind with a faster speed.
> Watch this protest in reverse!
> Ask the local police; "What's your illegal activity on duty?".
> If you protest the government then there's a new government from protesting.
> There's not a new government from protesting.
> Thus, you aren't protesting the government.
> There's something important in this video: There's no communication to anyone in this location.
> You shouldn't be afraid of the stars.
> There's  a new bird on my right shoulder. The beak is two feet and lime green.  The rarest bird on earth, there's no feathers, but small grey scales all  over the body. It's with one large red eye with a light blue iris. The  bird feet are the same as a woodpecker. This new bird and there's only  one, the gender is not female or male. The wings of this bird are  beautiful; 3 feet wide with the shape of a bald eagle that you could die  for.  If you can see this bird then you will understand. You think this  bird is able to chat about a government?
> I want you to imagine a comet or meteoroid coming through the atmosphere.
> On  the other hand, welcome yourself to the desert: Maybe your ability to  protest is from the brainwash of the current government structure.                           ... (more info)
> 
> (less info)


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## Darksoul

-I'd rather it had been zombies. Hopefully it all gets straighten out and people recover and move on. This attack will, unfortunately, divide the country even more. It would be nice if the finger pointing is kept to a minimum but I'm not holding my breath. Instead of attacking, I would rather we, as a nation, find the causes behind what led up to this tragedy and address those, like we should've been doing all along. But even then, there would still be little agreement, and the finger pointing would continue.

Andrew


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## LuckyKBoxer

Bill Mattocks said:


> Jesus. Now I'm reading that a white male in his 20's shot and killed the Congresswoman and a federal judge and his aide in the same shooting. Both the judge and the Congresswoman were described as having 'enemies' in the Tea Party.
> 
> Any comments, Tea Party guys? I mean, if the shooter were AQ, or an illegal alien, you'd be all over this, right? Why so quiet?


 
She also has crossed her own party several times in the recent past, so what you think her own party tried to kill her for crossing Obama?
Seriously that was a pretty crappy comment and I am surprised it came out of you. For shame.
How about we mark this up for what it is at the moment, a pile of crap person who broke the law, and killed people.
Lets wait and see who he is, and why he did it later. Then we can get into the political BS, you are just trying to start a fight, wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?


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## LuckyKBoxer

Alos she isnt dead Bill
she was shot point blank range into her temple and it came out the front of her forehead.
Last I heard she was responding to doctors ques, which is a best case scenario for this type of injury, now the goal is to make sure she doesnt lose more braincells from her head swelling, the bloodpressure being to high or low, and making sure she has adequate bloodflow. Hopefully she is able to pull through with the least amount of damage as possible, and eventually resume a life and lifestyle that will be rewarding for her.
I was looking at some of her accomplishments, and votes and while she did absolutely have issues with the tea party candidate opposing here, she was also for securing our borders and was against illegal immigration, although she did oppose sb1070.
I think she had enemies and friends on all sides of the issues, republican, democrat, indendant and everyone in between.


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## crushing

Bill Mattocks said:


> Jesus.  Now I'm reading that a white male in his 20's shot and killed the Congresswoman and a federal judge and his aide in the same shooting.  Both the judge and the Congresswoman were described as having 'enemies' in the Tea Party.
> 
> Any comments, Tea Party guys?  I mean, if the shooter were AQ, or an illegal alien, you'd be all over this, right?  Why so quiet?



Not sure who the Tea Party guys are.  I think the Tea Party having any sort of power is the biggest hoax the media has ever pulled on us.

Anyway, if you want to start down that road, the gun control people have the most to gain from such a shooting.  It didn't take long for the website to get updated this weekend and to blame the NRA and Palin for contributing to the shooting:  http://www.bradycampaign.org/.


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## Bill Mattocks

Are you guys telling me it's not OK to blame the whole Tea Party for the actions of a crazed lone gunman who might have TP sympathies?


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## ballen0351

Bill Mattocks said:


> Jesus. Now I'm reading that a white male in his 20's shot and killed the Congresswoman and a federal judge and his aide in the same shooting. Both the judge and the Congresswoman were described as having 'enemies' in the Tea Party.
> 
> Any comments, Tea Party guys? I mean, if the shooter were AQ, or an illegal alien, you'd be all over this, right? Why so quiet?


 Crazy people on all sides of the spectrum


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## ballen0351

crushing said:


> Not sure who the Tea Party guys are. I think the Tea Party having any sort of power is the biggest hoax the media has ever pulled on us.
> 
> Anyway, if you want to start down that road, the gun control people have the most to gain from such a shooting. It didn't take long for the website to get updated this weekend and to blame the NRA and Palin for contributing to the shooting: http://www.bradycampaign.org/.


I think that may backfire on the Brady people.  To me this is a classic example to show why more people should be armed.  If there were a few more armed people there I dont think he would have be able to shoot so many people.


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## granfire

ballen0351 said:


> I think that may backfire on the Brady people.  To me this is a classic example to show why more people should be armed.  If there were a few more armed people there I dont think he would have be able to shoot so many people.




or there would have been more 'collateral damage'....

but really guys, this type of discussion at this time is beyond poor taste.


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## chrispillertkd

Bill Mattocks said:


> Are you guys telling me it's not OK to blame the whole Tea Party for the actions of a crazed lone gunman who might have TP sympathies?


 
Was he a member of one of the state Tea Parties, then? 

And do a lot of Tea Partiers list the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kampf as some of the favorite books? I'm asking because you seem to know much more about the Tea Party than I since I'm not a member. 

Pax,

Chris


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## LuckyKBoxer

Bill Mattocks said:


> Are you guys telling me it's not OK to blame the whole Tea Party for the actions of a crazed lone gunman who might have TP sympathies?


 
The difference between being anti illegal alien, is all of them are breaking the law period.
I have not heard any connection between this idiot scumbag and the tea party, but even if he was a major contributer to the tea party he is stil a lone idiot, and not an example of the tea party in general.

You can't even begin to compare the two, you are smart enough to know that and your trolling on this issue is disgusting.


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## billc

We won't know anything accurately for quite a while.  We'll see what happened eventually.


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## ballen0351

granfire said:


> or there would have been more 'collateral damage'....
> 
> but really guys, this type of discussion at this time is beyond poor taste.


 
Or there would be less dead people and more dead bad guys

If its in poor taste then don't comment


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## granfire

ballen0351 said:


> Or there would be less dead people and more dead bad guys
> 
> If its in poor taste then don't comment




and there you are being you again....


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## Flea

> We also are deeply concerned about the heated political rhetoric that escalates debates and controversies, and sometimes makes it seem as if violence is an acceptable response to honest disagreements. Shortly after President Obama took office, the head of the NRA crowed that &#8220;*the guys with the guns make the rules*;&#8221; participants in Congressional forums and Presidential events started carrying guns in public; and then, just last year a candidate for U.S. Senate  said the citizens unhappy with elections results should consider exercising their &#8220;*Second Amendment remedies*&#8221; and Sarah Palin used *gun &#8220;target&#8221; metaphors* encouraging voters to defeat Rep. Giffords and others.



Personally I don't see this  as directly pointing the finger at the NRA or Palin so much as a comment on the overall political climate today.  I don't think anyone would argue with the observation that we're increasingly bitter and polarized on every side of the spectrum, and the rhetoric is getting worse.  

I don't think the Brady Campaign is suggesting that someone would wake up some bright morning, see a quote in the paper, and go on a rampage.  But if someone is _already_ very unstable, it's easy to see inflammatory images and decide they're "signs" affirming a course they've already chosen.  At first blush I think it's a safe guess that's what happened here.

I do grieve for everyone affected in this, especially the family of the child who probably thought they were being great parents by exposing her to democracy at such a tender age.  Nobody wins today.  Horrible, just horrible.


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## ballen0351

granfire said:


> and there you are being you again....


 Who else should I be?


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## LuckyKBoxer

ballen0351 said:


> Who else should I be?


 
This would be a classic way that granfire and others like would chose to insinuate that you are less then they are, that you are not as good, and should be ashamed of it.


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## Archangel M

WTF is any crazy white guy who goes on a shooting rampage automatically assumed to be a member of the Tea Party???

Of all people I didn't expect to jump to that conclusion....


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## billc

Remember, the shooter at fort hood had "soldier of Allah" on his business card, yelled "Allah ahkbar" before he started shooting, was a muslim who posted about jihad on the internet and had contact with a jihadi cleric,...and they still do not know why he did what he did.  So of course, if it is a white american guy he is obviously a member of the tea party, who is probably related to both George Bush and Sarah Palin and is against health care reform.


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## Bob Hubbard

Several people are dead, including a little girl.  I think anyone rushing to play political games around this, well suck.

My thoughts are with the families of those killed, and the wounded.  Anything else at this point, IMO is unnecessary.


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## billc

Just responding to Bill Mattocks.


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## Bill Mattocks

billcihak said:


> Just responding to Bill Mattocks.



About what?

I have asked if it is OK to blame the Tea Party for the actions of a lone wacko.  If not, then I wonder why it is OK to blame illegal aliens for the actions of lone wackos who are illegal aliens, or members of a certain religion when someone tries to light their shoes on fire on a plane.  Seems odd to me.  Also seems odd that no one notices the turnabout here; kind of ironic, don't you think?  Sad that I have to point out, though.


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## Scott T

Bill Mattocks said:


> About what?
> 
> I have asked if it is OK to blame the Tea Party for the actions of a lone wacko. If not, then I wonder why it is OK to blame illegal aliens for the actions of lone wackos who are illegal aliens, or members of a certain religion when someone tries to light their shoes on fire on a plane. Seems odd to me. Also seems odd that no one notices the turnabout here; kind of ironic, don't you think? Sad that I have to point out, though.


 Actually, Bill, I agree with you about the irony of condemning an entire group for the acts of an individual for anyone but white Americans.

But time and place. Let's wait a few days before going into that particular discussion.


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## billc

I agree Scott, it was more of a wake up call to people posting.  It is 10:09 and noone knows anything about the guy yet.  Let's wait and then start blaming people.


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## Archangel M

These "guys who try to light their shoes on fire" are recruited, trained (sometimes) and supplied with weapons and targets by organizations Bill. Comparing this guy to organized terrorism is a fail. Unless future investigations prove otherwise.


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## Bill Mattocks

billcihak said:


> I agree Scott, it was more of a wake up call to people posting.  It is 10:09 and noone knows anything about the guy yet.  Let's wait and then start blaming people.



You're missing the point...


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## ballen0351

Scott T said:


> Actually, Bill, I agree with you about the irony of condemning an entire group for the acts of an individual for anyone but white Americans.
> 
> But time and place. Let's wait a few days before going into that particular discussion.


 
 Oh yeah because nobody has ever condemned white Americans right?  White American males are the last group that its Politically Correct to still bash.


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## Bill Mattocks

Archangel M said:


> These "guys who try to light their shoes on fire" are recruited, trained (sometimes) and supplied with weapons and targets by organizations Bill. Comparing this guy to organized terrorism is a fail. Unless future investigations prove otherwise.



Not comparing this guy to terrorists.   My comments are aimed at people here on MT, not outside the gates.

You're missing the point...


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## bluewaveschool

I didn't know trolling had a valid point


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## Bill Mattocks

bluewaveschool said:


> I didn't know trolling had a valid point



I know that dark sarcasm and irony hurts, but it doesn't make it trolling just because the truth sucks sometimes.


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## Archangel M

Bill Mattocks said:


> Not comparing this guy to terrorists.   My comments are aimed at people here on MT, not outside the gates.
> 
> You're missing the point...



I think you better explain it clearly then. Dark sarcasm isn't playing very well at this point.


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## Scott T

bluewaveschool said:


> I didn't know trolling had a valid point


It's not really trolling as he is making a point about perceptions and reactions to this tragedy by comparing it to others, albeit it is on a slight tangent from the original topic.


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## Flea

ballen0351 said:


> Oh yeah because nobody has ever condemned white Americans right?  White American males are the last group that it&#8217;s Politically Correct to still bash.



I think the only demographic that needs bashing are the people trying to put a political spin on this tragedy tonight.  Let it go for now.


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## Archangel M

The really sad thing is that so far it looks like the shooter was a nut with no real political goals (that I can understand) in mind. The politicization is all "US" so far. People who don't like the Tea Party or Sarah Palin will see this as an "opportunity" and if and when it comes out that he was "liberal" in his viewpoints, the other side will try to make points off of it.

While it is sad, I also don't really think it's anything that "new". Look at the Civil War and the lawlessness of the post war west.

Lets see how quickly there are calls for new laws and restrictions on "hate speech" and "political rhetoric". Not to mention gun control.


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## Big Don

Archangel M said:


> WTF is any crazy white guy who goes on a shooting rampage automatically assumed to be a member of the Tea Party???
> 
> Of all people I didn't expect to jump to that conclusion....


But, that isn't racism


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## Big Don

We also  are deeply concerned about the heated political rhetoric that escalates  debates and controversies, and sometimes makes it seem as if violence is  an acceptable response to honest disagreements. Shortly after President  Obama took office, the head of the NRA crowed that *the guys with the guns make the rules*;  participants in Congressional forums and Presidential events started  carrying guns in public; and then, just last year a candidate for U.S.  Senate  said the citizens unhappy with elections results should consider  exercising their *Second Amendment remedies* and Sarah Palin used *gun target metaphors* encouraging voters to defeat Rep. Giffords and others.
So, logically, the Brady people would have to HATE this:





From the DLC website, wouldn't they?


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## Flea

Nonsequiter.  This is about someone who had major psychological issues who latched onto a political paradigm as a framework for an illness that was already in motion.  If it is a partisan based crime, we don't know that for sure until the investigators have had a chance to work it out.   I really doubt it though.  I think the guy is just sick.  If he didn't latch on to politics he would have latched on to something else.  Mind control is a very common theme among people with serious delusions.

Let's let the investigators do their job before we jump to any more conclusions, please?


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## Tez3

On the BBC news just now it said a woman disarmed the shooter, any news on that, who and how for example? A brave thing to do if that's the case.


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## Carol

That would indeed be brave.  Not sure if the authorities have released that level of detail yet. 

Found this as an attributed quote:



> The gunman tried to run, but "some very brave people" wrestled him to  the ground and sat on him, a Pima County sheriff's spokesman said.



Read more:  Motive unknown in shooting of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/201101...Arizona-Rep.-Gabrielle-Giffords#ixzz1AX7LPmvZ
​
Also thought this was interesting:



> Arizona state Rep. Steve Farley said Daniel Hernandez, his former  campaign manager -- and a trained nurse -- was interning for Giffords  and staffing Saturday's meet-and-greet event.
> "He said that when  he was in the back ... he heard shots in the front. He rushed to see  what had happened. Gabby was on the floor," Farley said. "He was able to  use his nurse training and snapped right into it and was able to apply  pressure to the wound and keep her active and alert. He rode with her in  the ambulance to the hospital."



http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/08/arizona.shooting.scene/

The quick thinking of Mr. Hernandez may have saved her life, and/or made a difference in the quality of life she will have after the shooting.


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## Archangel M

Media here is already blaming Sarah Palin for this. Instead of looking at the person who pulled the trigger we are already looking to blame it on something someone else said.


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## Archangel M

Instead of blaming it on Sarah Palin I could just as easily blame it on marijuana.



> Little was known about Loughner, a sometime community college student who lived with his parents. A former classmate described him as a pot-smoking loner with rambling beliefs about the government and mind control.
> 
> Read more: Motive unknown in shooting of Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords | freep.com | Detroit Free Press http://www.freep.com/article/201101...Arizona-Rep.-Gabrielle-Giffords#ixzz1AYJGcyuY


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## Big Don

> If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,


 Obama


> We talk to these folks so I know whose *** to kick.


 Obama on the private sector, June 2010
The use of violent metaphors (Oh the friggin horror) is only OK when used by the left.
When used by the right, it clearly incites nut cases to violence and therefore is obviously wrong wrong wrong...


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## Cryozombie

Big Don said:


> Obama
> Obama on the private sector, June 2010
> The use of violent metaphors (Oh the friggin horror) is only OK when used by the left.
> When used by the right, it clearly incites nut cases to violence and therefore is obviously wrong wrong wrong...



Yes, and Daily KOS had a blog calling her "Dead to me" too which has since been taken down, so lets realize that BOTH sides use metaphors like this all the damn time, and focus on WHY he did what he did instead of finger pointing.


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## Archangel M

Blaming Palin for this reminds me of how quick the media was to blame Marylin Manson and "Doom" for the Columbine killings. For all we know this kid may not even know who Sarah Palin or Glenn Beck was. We have not one shred of evidence that he ever even heard of them and tons of people are already scrambling to lay blame. Was this kid yelling "Reload eh?" or "Glenn Beck Akhbar!"  as he was doing the shooting? No.


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## billc

Glen Beck Ahkbar, that was pretty good Archangel.


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## WC_lun

My sympathies to the families and friends of those effected by this tragedy.  It is a very, very, sad thing no matter which way you lean politically.

I do think this further highlights the need to not use over-the-top language when it comes to our political debates.  Its okay to disagree, but when you paint the other guy as an enemy of the US because they disagree with your view it can lead to bad things.  There are crazy people out there who can't tell when a person is exagerating for effect.  Words have a lot of power and we need to keep that in mind in our political discourse.


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## Big Don

WC_lun said:


> My sympathies to the families and friends of those effected by this tragedy.  It is a very, very, sad thing no matter which way you lean politically.
> 
> I do think this further highlights the need to not use over-the-top language when it comes to our political debates.  Its okay to disagree, but when you paint the other guy as an enemy of the US because they disagree with your view it can lead to bad things.  There are crazy people out there who can't tell when a person is exagerating for effect.  Words have a lot of power and we need to keep that in mind in our political discourse.


Yeah, this woman should be stopped...
This guy:&#8220;If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,&#8221; obviously shouldn't be allowed public office...


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## Archangel M

We will be violating our 1st Amendment soon. I can see it coming....


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## billc

Video of Msnbc blaming the "right" while two months ago there was a guy on advocating violent revolution from the left, it comes in at the 58 second mark.

http://www.breitbart.tv/msnbc-asser...eatured-guest-calling-for-violent-revolution/

Remeber, speech is not the problem here, it is illegal violence that is the problem.  I do not agree with censoring any sort of speech, except as an individual.  Political speech and the freedom to use it is what a free country is about.  The "tone the rhetoric down" idea is the same as trying to ban dungeons and dragons.  One guy, shoots a politician out of over 300 million people.  That is not a reason to attack free speech, no matter how passionate that speech is.


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## Flea

It's a ghastly thing to say, but I'll be interested to see how Giffords recovers from this.  There are cases of people who attempt suicide with a shot to the temple, only to sail through recovery after giving themselves a clean, precise frontal lobotomy.

* shudder *


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## ballen0351

WC_lun said:


> I do think this further highlights the need to not use over-the-top language when it comes to our political debates. Its okay to disagree, but when you paint the other guy as an enemy of the US because they disagree with your view it can lead to bad things. There are crazy people out there who can't tell when a person is exagerating for effect. Words have a lot of power and we need to keep that in mind in our political discourse.


 
 Im not sure it would matter crazy people are just crazy.  Today this guys upset about the govt.  The next Guy could be upset because PopTarts put too many sprinkles on his strawberry poptart.
We are mostly logical people here and to try to put a logical reason on a crazy act wont work.


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## crushing

Giffords is a conservative "Blue Dog" Democrat and on her website she calls the federal debt "the single biggest threat to our economy and national security."  She also has been a key player in trying to improve border security and reduce illegal immigration, which some pundits have tried to cast as being anti-immigration and even racist.

If the shooting was indeed politically motivated, it may be difficult to tell from which ideological background the shooter actually came from.  It appears the mainstream media has pretty much decided Palin mindcontrolled him to do it somehow.  People, especially Palin haters, will want to believe it.  Heck, most people still think McVeigh was a Christian and a member of a militia based media portrayals.


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## dowan50

ballen0351 said:


> Im not sure it would matter crazy people are just crazy.  Today this guys upset about the govt.  The next Guy could be upset because PopTarts put too many sprinkles on his strawberry poptart.
> We are mostly logical people here and to try to put a logical reason on a crazy act wont work.



I am not sure that is the case at all anymore our country has become completely polarized and the Conservative right inflamed by its media personalities that would do anything for a buck will stop at nothing to increase ratings and income. Look at health care debate. our voting base has become uneducated and lead by Faciast rhetoric telling them to hate the people that are the problem. Yes nuts are nuts but a good portion of our population is becoming nuts instead of working together and all of us doing the hard work to fix it it is easier to point and call names lie about the facts and a give me mine at the cost of others.

Whats even funnier is the blind almost extinct middle class fighting for the rights of the rich thinking they have a chance of becoming one. Word do matter it was words that put Hitler in power history repeats itself. What is scary is that even conservative commentators are using terms like Robber Barons and things are not going to change for the better with out people loosing everything and violent confrontations on a national basis. I hate that to be called conservative is morally correct but to be a democrat is to called a liberal who is attached with every low moral and negative word phrasing you can think of.

Our politicians have proved there are not democrats or republicans only greedy people have and have not and the sane people who are the majority but split are going to have to work together before we all circle the drain!!


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## ballen0351

dowan50 said:


> I am not sure that is the case at all anymore our country has become completely polarized and the Conservative right inflamed by its media personalities that would do anything for a buck will stop at nothing to increase ratings and income. Look at health care debate. our voting base has become uneducated and lead by Faciast rhetoric telling them to hate the people that are the problem. Yes nuts are nuts but a good portion of our population is becoming nuts instead of working together and all of us doing the hard work to fix it it is easier to point and call names lie about the facts and a give me mine at the cost of others.
> 
> Whats even funnier is the blind almost extinct middle class fighting for the rights of the rich thinking they have a chance of becoming one. Word do matter it was words that put Hitler in power history repeats itself. What is scary is that even conservative commentators are using terms like Robber Barons and things are not going to change for the better with out people loosing everything and violent confrontations on a national basis. I hate that to be called conservative is morally correct but to be a democrat is to called a liberal who is attached with every low moral and negative word phrasing you can think of.
> 
> Our politicians have proved there are not democrats or republicans only greedy people have and have not and the sane people who are the majority but split are going to have to work together before we all circle the drain!!


 I guess what Im trying to say is someone thats crazy enough to go to a shopping center and shoot a bunch of people is going to be crazy no matter if he listens to Palin, Obama, or his dog sparky.  I dont think Palin or Obama can make someone that would normally not do this into a person that would go do it.  Your either wired to commit Mass Murder or your not.  In his mind he needed to find a reaon for his thoughts and I guess Politics were his thing.  Other Mass Murderers found other reason to justify their actions. 

As for the rest of your Conservatives are Bad, Liberals are victims, Middle class is stupid post well I disagree


----------



## dowan50

billcihak said:


> Video of Msnbc blaming the "right" while two months ago there was a guy on advocating violent revolution from the left, it comes in at the 58 second mark.
> 
> http://www.breitbart.tv/msnbc-asser...eatured-guest-calling-for-violent-revolution/
> 
> Remeber, speech is not the problem here, it is illegal violence that is the problem.  I do not agree with censoring any sort of speech, except as an individual.  Political speech and the freedom to use it is what a free country is about.  The "tone the rhetoric down" idea is the same as trying to ban dungeons and dragons.  One guy, shoots a politician out of over 300 million people.  That is not a reason to attack free speech, no matter how passionate that speech is.



Censor ship and restriction of free speech no but education on how people in this country can come together from two opposing sides on how to resolve real issues like deficit and jobs, and education instead of looking to the past and blaming must happen.

To say that words do not matter or have no effect when people like Rush and Beck advocate violence on a daily basis for years? Well why do all the corporate risk management training policies want to use or incorporate verbal restraint or behavior modification instead of physical means if words do not matter??????????


----------



## billc

Dowan, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  I listen to rush daily and occasionally to beck and they never advocate violence.  the ones who do that are on the left.  Disagreement is not advocacy for violence.  I know the main stream media believes that disagreeing with Obama and healthcare is the same as calling for violence but I for one am tired of that old non-debating point.  It is the likes of bill Clinton, after Mcveigh,  blaming rush, and the other democrats who try to use any reason to blame conservatives for violence.  Just like mayor bloomberg of new york who said he would bet that the time square bomber was angry about healthcare.  The actual islamic bomber was quietly ignored.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

dowan50 said:


> Censor ship and restriction of free speech no but education on how people in this country can come together from two opposing sides on how to resolve real issues like deficit and jobs, and education instead of looking to the past and blaming must happen.
> 
> To say that words do not matter or have no effect when people like Rush and Beck advocate violence on a daily basis for years? Well why do all the corporate risk management training policies want to use or incorporate verbal restraint or behavior modification instead of physical means if words do not matter??????????


 
I have never listened to Beck, but I read one of his books that someone loaned me and nowhere did it offer any suggestion of violence.
I also listen to talk radio and about once or twice a week i will catch the last 20 minutes or so of rush and I have never once heard him mention anything about hate or violence.
I do listen to John and Ken a local Los Angelos duo who are funny as hell, and slam everyone on all sides of the political spectrum... they do however spot violence, with their "heads on a stick" campaigns. and comments they make. I tend to think that the people saying that these talk show entertainers like Rush, and Beck and whoever are advocating violence and hate are idiots, and ignorant as to what is really being said, adn are just parotting the screaming from their liberal spokesmen and spouting their parties talking points.


----------



## Cryozombie

Did you guys hear?  Watching porn makes you commit rape.



> from Jared Loughner:
> 
> 
> "Terrorist
> 
> "If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon.
> 
> I define terrorist.
> 
> "Thus, a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon.
> 
> "If you call me a terrorist then the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem.
> 
> "You call me a terrorist.
> 
> "Thus, the argument to call me a terrorist is Ad hominem. "



This guy doesn't need "violent conservative rhetoric", he sounds like he has a few screws loose regardless.


----------



## Big Don

Cryozombie said:


> Did you guys hear?  Watching porn makes you commit rape.
> 
> 
> 
> This guy doesn't need "violent conservative rhetoric", he sounds like he has a few screws loose regardless.


The only people I've ever heard use the term Ad hominem, twice in one post, are liberals...


----------



## billc

My homepage at att.net has this headline "Heated political rhetoric faces scrutiny."  Please, can people get real and stop the hand wringing.  A lone nut out of 300 million people.  The first things yelled are Tea party and Sarah palin.  Political rhetoric is supposed to be heated because you want people who care and have passion in the political process.  
How many times do you hear, "more people need to get involved in the political process."  THe cries of "heated rhetoric" are coming from people who want their opposition to be quiet and stop getting in the way of their agenda items.


----------



## Archangel M

The left using this to knee jerk attack the right could possibly backfire on them. They should tread lightly.

As to Rush and Beck inciting violence...please...try being informed and actually listen to or read something before condemning it.


----------



## Big Don

*Arizona gunman tried to join Army, was rejected*

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            By                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Jeff Schogol                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Stars and Stripes EXCERPT:
                                                       Published: January 9, 2011

 WASHINGTON - The man accused of  shooting U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and several others Saturday in  Arizona was rejected by the Army when he tried to enlist in 2008,  according to the Army.
Jared Lee Loughner, who is being held in  connection with Saturdays shooting in Tuscon, wrote on a video posted  on his YouTube channel on Dec. 15 that he had visited the military  recruiting station in Phoenix, claiming to be a military recruit.
I didnt write a belief on my Army application, and the recruiter wrote on the application: None, Loughner wrote on the video.
In fact, he had been rejected by the Army more than two years ago, Army officials said.
END EXCERPT
NOT A VETERAN. But, thanks to the media and various leftist bloggers, celebs, etc, for using this douchebag to slander the military and ACTUAL veterans.


----------



## Archangel M

After the Ft. Hood shootings the media was all "lets not jump to conclusions".

But NOW......


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Archangel M said:


> After the Ft. Hood shootings the media was all "lets not jump to conclusions".
> 
> But NOW......



No pot / kettle thing going on here at all?  Hmm?


----------



## Steve

I don't know why this guy did what he did, but I agree that we shouldn't jump to conclusions about his motives or affiliations.  Clearly he was disturbed and I agree that we shouldn't rush to judge.  This sort of craziness is terrible.  

I also think that we need to bookmark this thread so that the next time some whackjob does something crazy we'll have some record from posters on this board about the wisdom of patience in situations like this.  I expect that certain posters who are condemning any rush to judgement will not hesitate to jump to conclusions if told to do so by their political evangelists, and will need to be reminded of their hypocrisy with their own words.


----------



## seasoned

Tez3 said:


> On the BBC news just now it said a woman disarmed the shooter, any news on that, who and how for example? A brave thing to do if that's the case.


Patricia Maisch was the woman that came out of the waiting line and confronted the shooter while he was reloading. She tackled him to the ground. I just heard this on tv......


----------



## Archangel M

Bill Mattocks said:


> No pot / kettle thing going on here at all?  Hmm?



Care to point out what you mean? Some guy yelling "Allahu Akhbar!!" while killing people is a pretty safe bet that religion had a role in his actions. This guy? What does anybody have to make an assumption as to motive? The fact that he's while and killed a Democrat????


----------



## billc

Some delightful political rhetoric from the Daily Kos founder:

http://bigjournalism.com/pjsalvatore/2011/01/09/about-dangerous-political-rhetoric-markos-edition/


----------



## Bill Mattocks

Archangel M said:


> Care to point out what you mean? Some guy yelling "Allahu Akhbar!!" while killing people is a pretty safe bet that religion had a role in his actions. This guy? What does anybody have to make an assumption as to motive? The fact that he's while and killed a Democrat????



I've pointed out what I mean.  Those who don't want to see it are not going to see it.


----------



## dowan50

billcihak said:


> Dowan, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  I listen to rush daily and occasionally to beck and they never advocate violence.  the ones who do that are on the left.  Disagreement is not advocacy for violence.  I know the main stream media believes that disagreeing with Obama and healthcare is the same as calling for violence but I for one am tired of that old non-debating point.  It is the likes of bill Clinton, after Mcveigh,  blaming rush, and the other democrats who try to use any reason to blame conservatives for violence.  Just like mayor bloomberg of new york who said he would bet that the time square bomber was angry about healthcare.  The actual islamic bomber was quietly ignored.



I know alot more about beck that you do and I have seen and listened to video clips after video clip of him exactly promoting hate and violence. I happen to be a member of his church and the church which rarely steps in had to distance themselves because the guy is out there speaking as if he is a formally educated theologian for everyone he could not get his facts strait if he someone put one had up his --- like a puppet and gave him the text on a Telepromoter.

Try using facts next time instead of personally attacking me I would give you clips to videos of Beck but people like you do not want to hear facts or anything that does not reinforce their bigoted and class perceptions. Its just easier to call names, lie and if all else fails threaten.

I suppose you think the security guy stomping on the head of an unarmed woman trying to show a sign and talk to a tea bagger candidate was just doing his job and she was so wrong for being a victim. 

While agree that profoundly mentally ill people that belong on medication will do what they do the current story opinion of most of the media not mine related to the shooting is that this is still a symptom of a national trend of hostility based on people who feel threatened of loosing power and willing to do and say anything to empower themselves. 

You want to debate and your first comment has to be you have no idea what your talking about well if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck in your opinion its Pork? thats not a debate its denial.


----------



## billc

Well, with what just happened, that take down of the person shoving an unknown package at the tea party person has some merit now doesn't it.  Show the video, I'll watch it.


----------



## Flea

stevebjj said:


> I also think that we need to bookmark this thread so that the next time some *whackjob* does something crazy we'll have some record from posters on this board about the wisdom of patience in situations like this.  I expect that certain posters who are condemning any rush to judgement will not hesitate to jump to conclusions if told to do so by their political evangelists, and will need to be reminded of their hypocrisy with their own words.



Steve, you make an excellent point here and I thank you.  I'm not singling you out here with this point except for the use of a particular word ...

As long as were discussing the effect that inflammatory language can have in escalating situations, I feel that it's important that we get our vocabulary straight here.  The correct term is "mental illness."  A person with mental illness is referred to as just that - a person with mental illness.  Or, in some circles, as a "client" or a "consumer" of mental health services.   

Terms like whack job, froot loop, nuts, rowing with one oar, and, yes, _crazy_ are all slurs on the same base level as f#ggot, n1gger, mackerel-snapper, c%nt, and kike.  Such language is demeaning not just to its target, but to the people using it and to the entire community.  If you're not sure what language to use in referring to someone with a mental illness, visualize your best friend in the ICU fighting for his life after a suicide attempt.  If you wouldn't want people referring to him like that, it's probably not a good term for you to use either.

And, as with any other slur, you never _really_ know who's hearing it.  As a "consumer" peer advocate I'm used to being open with my own situation because I know it's making a positive difference in my community.  Not everyone with a mental illness feels that way, and it's no wonder with the social stigma imposed on us.  But please understand that the fact that I'm willing to open about it does not mean that I'm the only one.  I've had several people approach me privately in the 2+ years I've been on this forum.  And there are others here with loved ones who struggle with mental illness too.  So please, be aware of what you say.  It can have a _huge_ ripple effect beyond the simple ego buzz of sounding off online.


----------



## crushing

The rush to judgement and media analysis of the AZ shooting reminds me of this one:  http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/23/census-worker-hanged-with_n_297114.html


----------



## Tez3

Flea said:


> It's a ghastly thing to say, but I'll be interested to see how Giffords recovers from this. There are cases of people who attempt suicide with a shot to the temple, only to sail through recovery after giving themselves a clean, precise frontal lobotomy.
> 
> * shudder *


 
By the sound of it she has been very lucky in who she has had helping her, firstly a doctor at the scene then the doctor at the hosptial who has been in Afghan. It's hopeful I think though they doctors won't speculate on how she'll recover, I think it's safe to say she won't be the same person either mentally or physically. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12148446


http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/seealso/2011/01/see_also_media_spotlight_turns.html

A lady with sense....

_"Meanwhile, Arizona Republic columnist Linda Valdez, warns against a rush to assign blame:_
_To the world, what happened Saturday is referred to as a "killing spree in Arizona." For Tucson, it is a very personal pain. Gabby is the kind of hometown girl you can be proud of for all the good, old-fashioned reasons. She's poised, intelligent, well-spoken. And tough... __The debate over the consequences of ugly rhetoric began long before the victims fell Saturday. It requires winners and losers. As Tucson processes the very personal pain of what happened to Gabrielle Giffords and others on a beautiful sunny Saturday, the state and the nation have a model of behaviour that does not require blame. Republicans and Democrats - political friends and foes - came together to express compassion after Saturday's tragedy. If those involved could hold that level of civility, we'd all be better off."_​


----------



## Blade96

ballen0351 said:


> Who else should I be?



i lol'd



Big Don said:


> Obama
> Obama on the private sector, June 2010
> The use of violent metaphors (Oh the friggin horror) is only OK when used by the left.
> When used by the right, it clearly incites nut cases to violence and therefore is obviously wrong wrong wrong...



Oh puh - lease. 

Anyway R.I.P.

and i hope the survivors recover ok.

and Bill M. I know what you mean, people would be railing on illegal aliens if the shooter was one. But this is a sympathy thread, to sympathize with victims and their families it isnt really the time nor place. so if you could like shhhhh for now, it would be nice.


----------



## Archangel M

This is the Study. Not the Hall of Memorials...."sympathy thread"?


----------



## Steve

Flea said:


> Steve, you make an excellent point here and I thank you.  I'm not singling you out here with this point except for the use of a particular word ...
> 
> As long as were discussing the effect that inflammatory language can have in escalating situations, I feel that it's important that we get our vocabulary straight here.  The correct term is "mental illness."  A person with mental illness is referred to as just that - a person with mental illness.  Or, in some circles, as a "client" or a "consumer" of mental health services.


A person who crosses over into premeditated murder moves into a completely different arena.  There is a huge difference between mentally ill and a whackjob, and until a qualified medical professional declares this guy mentally incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong, whackjob he will remain in my mind.  It is a term I use specifically to differentiate between someone who IS mentally ill, and someone who does things like this.  

This may be a blind spot for me.  I'll admit it; people like this enrage me.  It's true, and maybe I should be more generous to him, but I can't find it in my heart to do so.  If he has a diagnosed illness, I would bet you dollars to donuts that this psychotic break is in large part a direct result of his choosing at some point to skip a dose of his medication.  

If a person has a siezure disorder and just decides to stop taking their medication (heck, it's been over a year since their last seizure), and as a result has a grand mal while behind the wheel of a car, killing several people in an accident, is that person responsible for the deaths?  In my opinion, yes.  Absolutely.  In the same way, a mentally ill person becomes a whackjob when he decides to go off his meds and as a result ends up shooting and killing several people.  

I know that I'm jumping to conclusions, and I readily admit that.  Let's wait and see if I'm right or not, but as I said, I'm just waiting for them to say that he's got x, y and z mental illness and wasn't taking his prescribed medication.


----------



## billc

A column by Andrew Klavan on the lefts reaction to the shooting.

http://www.city-journal.org/2011/eon0109ak.html

But while little useful can be said about the murders themselves, the rush to narrative of our dishonest and increasingly desperate leftist media does have to be addressed. The Left&#8212;which has been unable to discover any common feature uniting acts of Islamist violence worldwide&#8212;nonetheless instantly noticed a bridge between the Tucson shooting and its own political opponents. The _Chicago Sun-Times_ ran a slavering editorial blaming &#8220;the right.&#8221; MSNBC&#8217;s Keith Olbermann and the _Washington Post_&#8217;s Eugene Robinson suggested that the killings were inspired by right-wing rhetoric. Politico&#8217;s Roger Simon did the same.


----------



## Flea

stevebjj said:


> This may be a blind spot for me.  I'll admit it; people like this enrage me.  It's true, and maybe I should be more generous to him, but I can't find it in my heart to do so.  If he has a diagnosed illness, I would bet you dollars to donuts that this psychotic break is in large part a direct result of his choosing at some point to skip a dose of his medication.



I wouldn't say we're on the same page exactly, but we share some paragraphs in common.   

While Big Pharma and criminal prosecutors cast a rosy picture, psych medication really isn't that simple.  First you need the right diagnosis.  Psychiatry is as much an art as a science, and unlike most specialties of medicine where you can look at a sample under a microscope, the doctor has to rely on very subjective feedback from the patient to determine symptoms and the efficacy of any given treatment.  It typically takes 2-6 weeks for any psych medicine to kick in. All of which means that it can literally take years to find a working combination of medications.  And of course because everyone's body changes over time, that combination can stop being effective after a while and then you have to go through the trial and error prescription-go-round all over again.  It's completely exasperating when you're in such pain that you can barely function.  When you're already stuck in a paradigm of nihilism and helplessness, it's reasonable to be tempted to throw up your hands and walk away.

Also the drugs are far from perfect.  They can have terrible side effects.  Diabetes is a given for most people on antipsychotics.  Mood stabilizers can cause seizures.  Many medications cause tremors bad enough to mimic Parkinsons.  They're not as widespread as they used to be, but neuroleptics tend to cause tardive dyskenesia - uncontrollable twitches, especially of facial muscles.  (Try getting a job or a date when you can't stop winking and sticking out your tongue.)  Medications often dull the intellect, sap a person of all their energy, or even aggravate existing conditions.  People don't go off medication for fun.  They do it because sometimes it really _is_ better than the alternative.

Add to that the fact that most people are woefully ignorant about mental illness in the first place and what it takes to treat it.  Remember Seng Hui Cho?  His parents knew he had a serious problem and they were going to take him to church ... later.  His professor knew he had a serious problem and brought him into her office repeatedly under the guise of helping him with his writing.  Ultimately he was responsible for his actions, but there was a chain of failed good intentions in his wake.  I'm guessing we'll find the same thing here.

That said, this guy ultimately made a _*very*_ bad decision, and he needs to face the consequences like anyone else.  I get that.  It just always burns me up when people use these situations to demonize mental illness and consumers.  After all, people with diabetes commit crimes too.  So do Jews, African-Americans, fat people, and (gasp!) WASPs.  It's stupid to paint _any_ entire demographic as criminal, but I feel like I'm the only one pointing this out when a suspect has a mental illness.


----------



## ballen0351

Flea said:


> Add to that the fact that most people are woefully ignorant about mental illness in the first place and what it takes to treat it. Remember Seng Hui Cho? His parents knew he had a serious problem and they were going to take him to church ... later. His professor knew he had a serious problem and brought him into her office repeatedly under the guise of helping him with his writing. Ultimately he was responsible for his actions, but there was a chain of failed good intentions in his wake. I'm guessing we'll find the same thing here.
> 
> .


 
And thats the Problem.  People always want to help crazy people.  Want to be the "nice Guy" and help them.  Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society.  2 friends of mine were shot and killed by a nut job that had been in and out of mental hospitals  his whole life.  He should not have been able to be free and should not have been able to Gun Down 2 officers because his mom decided she could not deal with him anymore and called the police.  Seng Cho should have been committed long before he committed his crimes. But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"


----------



## Steve

Flea said:


> I wouldn't say we're on the same page exactly, but we share some paragraphs in common.
> 
> While Big Pharma and criminal prosecutors cast a rosy picture, psych medication really isn't that simple.  First you need the right diagnosis.  Psychiatry is as much an art as a science, and unlike most specialties of medicine where you can look at a sample under a microscope, the doctor has to rely on very subjective feedback from the patient to determine symptoms and the efficacy of any given treatment.  It typically takes 2-6 weeks for any psych medicine to kick in. All of which means that it can literally take years to find a working combination of medications.  And of course because everyone's body changes over time, that combination can stop being effective after a while and then you have to go through the trial and error prescription-go-round all over again.  It's completely exasperating when you're in such pain that you can barely function.  When you're already stuck in a paradigm of nihilism and helplessness, it's reasonable to be tempted to throw up your hands and walk away.
> 
> Also the drugs are far from perfect.  They can have terrible side effects.  Diabetes is a given for most people on antipsychotics.  Mood stabilizers can cause seizures.  Many medications cause tremors bad enough to mimic Parkinsons.  They're not as widespread as they used to be, but neuroleptics tend to cause tardive dyskenesia - uncontrollable twitches, especially of facial muscles.  (Try getting a job or a date when you can't stop winking and sticking out your tongue.)  Medications often dull the intellect, sap a person of all their energy, or even aggravate existing conditions.  People don't go off medication for fun.  They do it because sometimes it really _is_ better than the alternative.
> 
> Add to that the fact that most people are woefully ignorant about mental illness in the first place and what it takes to treat it.  Remember Seng Hui Cho?  His parents knew he had a serious problem and they were going to take him to church ... later.  His professor knew he had a serious problem and brought him into her office repeatedly under the guise of helping him with his writing.  Ultimately he was responsible for his actions, but there was a chain of failed good intentions in his wake.  I'm guessing we'll find the same thing here.
> 
> That said, this guy ultimately made a _*very*_ bad decision, and he needs to face the consequences like anyone else.  I get that.  It just always burns me up when people use these situations to demonize mental illness and consumers.  After all, people with diabetes commit crimes too.  So do Jews, African-Americans, fat people, and (gasp!) WASPs.  It's stupid to paint _any_ entire demographic as criminal, but I feel like I'm the only one pointing this out when a suspect has a mental illness.


An excellent post. 

I say things that are offensive sometimes without knowing it, such as in the "retarded" thread a few months back where it was pointed out to me how offensive this was for some people.  Since that post, I've backed off of using that word.  It's not that important, and I like to think that I'm articulate enough to find ways to make a point that aren't unnecessarily offensive.   I appreciate being told about it, and try to respect peoples' wishes.  

In this case, I have to admit that I used the term in a derogatory way.  I'd use stronger language if it were acceptable on these boards.  As I said, I am angry and I readily admit it. This guy killed a 9 year old girl who was there to meet a strong, female role model.  I'm livid.  This person may be mentally ill, but he is also a whackjob and every other derogatory term I might think of.


----------



## Tez3

ballen0351 said:


> And thats the Problem. People always want to help crazy people. Want to be the "nice Guy" and help them. Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society. 2 friends of mine were shot and killed by a nut job that had been in and out of mental hospitals his whole life. He should not have been able to be free and should not have been able to Gun Down 2 officers because his mom decided she could not deal with him anymore and called the police. Seng Cho should have been committed long before he committed his crimes. But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"


 



Always good to have a sympathetic attitude towards mental illness which can touch anyone at any time btw. One in three people in the Western world will have a mental illness sometime in their lives, it's nice that people have a good attitude towards it so when you find yourself in need of help, it will be there for you.


----------



## Flea

EDIT:  Sorry Tez, this was directed at Ballen. You beat me to it. 

And that, my dear, is precisely why I dedicate so much of precious time and limited energy to educating the public.  Sorry to break it to you, but human rights and civil liberties apply to everyone.  Not just the people you happen to like.  

People with mental illness are not the only people who commit crimes.  Go to any prison and you'll see all kinds of diagnoses in the infirmary.  Does that mean that everyone with cancer should be locked up as a public menace?  Arthritics all have murder in their hearts?  Diabetics aren't capable of living in society?  Of course not.  No one's destiny is helplessly at the mercy of their bodies.

I respect that you have strong feelings and came by them honestly, but that doesn't automatically make your perception reality.  I would suggest, as humbly and lovingly as I can, that you take some time and educate yourself on this in order to find some peace with your past.  With understanding comes healing.

That said, I think I've said everything I need to say on this topic for one thread.  If anyone has any further questions you may PM me respectfully.


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> And thats the Problem.  People always want to help crazy people.  Want to be the "nice Guy" and help them.  Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society.  2 friends of mine were shot and killed by a nut job that had been in and out of mental hospitals  his whole life.  He should not have been able to be free and should not have been able to Gun Down 2 officers because his mom decided she could not deal with him anymore and called the police.  Seng Cho should have been committed long before he committed his crimes. But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"


Okay.  And this is me distancing myself from ballen, lest anyone think that I believe this by association.  

Ballen, while anyone who does something like this deserves every punishment allowable by law, mental illness is exactly that: an illness.  People don't blame cancer patients for their disease or expect them to just "shake out of it" and get better.  A person who has schizophrenia is no more at fault for being sick than a person who has leukemia.  Both are serious and both deserve every opportunity to live their lives.   

My entire point is that, on the whole, unless you subscribe to the rationale that anyone who would commit murder is, by definition, mentally ill (a fallacy) more murders are committed by people who AREN'T mentally ill than by people who ARE.  For every whackjob who goes on a killing spree, there are thousands of people who are mentally ill living full lives, are productive employees and parents of regular kids.  

My point isn't to pen up the mentally ill and lock them all away.  It's to endorse treating mental illness as we do physical illness, taking it seriously, not blaming people for what they can't control (being ill) but holding them accountable for what they can (taking their meds, being serious about treatment and being responsible for their actions).

And there are some people who need to be held against their will because they can't distinguish between right and wrong and are an imminent harm to themselves or others.  These people should be treated involuntarily.


----------



## Slipper

> That said, this guy ultimately made a _*very*_ bad decision, and he needs to face the consequences like anyone else. I get that. It just always burns me up when people use these situations to demonize mental illness and consumers. After all, people with diabetes commit crimes too. So do Jews, African-Americans, fat people, and (gasp!) WASPs. It's stupid to paint _any_ entire demographic as criminal, but I feel like I'm the only one pointing this out when a suspect has a mental illness.


 
This basically sums it up.

Ballen, I'm sorry for your loss. I don't think Flea is advocating that those diagnosed with mental illness and considered dangerous roam the streets waving pistols. I believe the point is that anyone can commit a crime. To lump all those with mental illness into the same category with criminals is offensive and incorrect. 

The people who commit crimes come from all walks of life, not just those with mental illness.


----------



## Flea

ballen0351 said:


> And thats the Problem.  People always want to help crazy people.  Want to be the "nice Guy" and help them.  Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society.  2 friends of mine were shot and killed by a nut job that had been in and out of mental hospitals  his whole life.  He should not have been able to be free and should not have been able to Gun Down 2 officers because his mom decided she could not deal with him anymore and called the police.  Seng Cho should have been committed long before he committed his crimes. But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"



It's also worth pointing out that this is one of the most eloquent illustrations of why people so often refuse treatment.  Who wants to have people talk about them like this?  Who wants to see themselves this way?

Worse, this attitude translates readily to serious real-world consequences like employment and housing discrimination.  People get dumped by their spouses and estranged from their families simply for being diagnosed at all.  Getting a mental health evaluation is not a casual decision, and a lot of that comes down to attitudes like this.  Thanks Ballen.  I guess we agree on something after all.


----------



## granfire

ballen0351 said:


> And thats the Problem.  People always want to help crazy people.  Want to be the "nice Guy" and help them.  Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society.  2 friends of mine were shot and killed by a nut job that had been in and out of mental hospitals  his whole life.  He should not have been able to be free and should not have been able to Gun Down 2 officers because his mom decided she could not deal with him anymore and called the police.  Seng Cho should have been committed long before he committed his crimes. But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"





Tez3 said:


> Always good to have a sympathetic attitude towards mental illness which can touch anyone at any time btw. One in three people in the Western world will have a mental illness sometime in their lives, it's nice that people have a good attitude towards it so when you find yourself in need of help, it will be there for you.





Flea said:


> EDIT:  Sorry Tez, this was directed at Ballen. You beat me to it.
> 
> And that, my dear, is precisely why I dedicate so much of precious time and limited energy to educating the public.  Sorry to break it to you, but human rights and civil liberties apply to everyone.  Not just the people you happen to like.
> 
> People with mental illness are not the only people who commit crimes.  Go to any prison and you'll see all kinds of diagnoses in the infirmary.  Does that mean that everyone with cancer should be locked up as a public menace?  Arthritics all have murder in their hearts?  Diabetics aren't capable of living in society?  Of course not.  No one's destiny is helplessly at the mercy of their bodies.
> 
> I respect that you have strong feelings and came by them honestly, but that doesn't automatically make your perception reality.  I would suggest, as humbly and lovingly as I can, that you take some time and educate yourself on this in order to find some peace with your past.  With understanding comes healing.
> 
> That said, I think I've said everything I need to say on this topic for one thread.  If anyone has any further questions you may PM me respectfully.



And here, I find myself agreeing with Ballen, so please, do not hold it against me....

My mom headed the nursing staff of a large mental hospital for over 30 years... from looking away I learned more about mental health care than I ever wanted to know.

Sadly, they have not yet been able to find a surefire way to meet everybody's needs.
I have met several people who were about as crazy as the proverbial mad hatter, however they posed no harm to anybody. Yet, due to the time of their being they spend most of their lives in a closed institution. 

On the other hand, the hospital also house the forensic ward, those people you don't ever want to share the streets with. 

Thankfully the advances in the pharmaceutical sector have been enormous, so some of these people  - not the forensic ones though - can enjoy limited freedom. However, in many cases you just can't predict an episode of this magnitude....

Then again, there is the tenor that Ballen refers to. It's all good, if we are all nice it all will be better. 

It is not an easy answer.


----------



## Tez3

No one is suggesting that people who are a danger to themselves or others are turned loose on the streets to kill and maim, the general feeling it that blaming all mentally ill people for the actions of one person who is allegedly mentally ill is bang out of order.


----------



## granfire

Tez3 said:


> No one is suggesting that people who are a danger to themselves or others are turned loose on the streets to kill and maim, the general feeling it that blaming all mentally ill people for the actions of one person who is allegedly mentally ill is bang out of order.




No more than generalizing other groups of people for the actions of a single or a few people.
Totally right, er, correct...


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Oh come on seriously..
I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....

As to the turn the thread has gone in regards to mentally ill, or whackjobs, and whether they deserve a place in society or not..
I think that psychologists, psychiatrists, and the entire industry are frantically trying to classify every single person with some type of mental illness or another to the point that the vast majority of us are going to be classified with some type of illness.
I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function? I cant answer those questions its to broad based, but I do know if I ever have some mentally ill person come on property, come at my family, or myself, or my friends and threaten us in any manner then I am not going to wait to classify him, ill let the coroner figure that out. I dont know how this loughner guy came across, but it seems he was competant enough to walk among normal people without standing out unnecessarily, but not competant enough to attend a college without clearance from a doctor that he wasnt a danger to others.. Apparantly there was some type of warning there.
I fortunately come from a family line that other then having a tendancy to be aggressive, and successful does not have any problems fitting in with society and endangering anyone other then the idiots who deserve to be endangered. Unfortunately that leaves me at a loss to understand these..whackjobs...or mentally ill people, and also leaves me with no desire to waste my time worrying about them. I have many more important goals and desires to fulfill for my family and myself. I also do not like being forced to pay an ever increasing amount of my own money and resources for other people to handle the mentally ill. so whats the answer? I am simply done paying any more, if the burdon on myself and my family is placed any higher I am leaving, and then the rest of you will be left dealing with even fewer dollars to deal with these types... and I know for a fact I am not alone, thousands, probably hundreds of thousands out there are just like me. So what do we do? Accept it??? Or move somewhere away from it so we dont have to accept it? Somehow I dont think the later is even allowed.... but /shrug it is what is it is.


----------



## Slipper

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Oh come on seriously..
> I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....
> 
> As to the turn the thread has gone in regards to mentally ill, or whackjobs, and whether they deserve a place in society or not..


 
Actually, the discussion turned to how those with mental illness should not be lumped in the same category as criminals.



> I think that psychologists, psychiatrists, and the entire industry are frantically trying to classify every single person with some type of mental illness or another to the point that the vast majority of us are going to be classified with some type of illness.
> I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
> The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function? I cant answer those questions its to broad based, but I do know if I ever have some mentally ill person come on property, come at my family, or myself, or my friends and threaten us in any manner then I am not going to wait to classify him, ill let the coroner figure that out.


 
Chances are good that the mentally ill frequently walk on your property. You may not recognize them because they are delivery people, mail carriers, repairmen, etc. 

You're better off not worrying about the mentally ill and instead worrying about anyone with criminal mischief in mind.



> I dont know how this loughner guy came across, but it seems he was competant enough to walk among normal people without standing out unnecessarily, but not competant enough to attend a college without clearance from a doctor that he wasnt a danger to others.. Apparantly there was some type of warning there.
> I fortunately come from a family line that other then having a tendancy to be aggressive, and successful does not have any problems fitting in with society and endangering anyone other then the idiots who deserve to be endangered. Unfortunately that leaves me at a loss to understand these..whackjobs...or mentally ill people, and also leaves me with no desire to waste my time worrying about them.


 
I truly hope that you never have to worry about anyone in your family facing mental illness. I'm sure you realize that people who have job loss or suffer tragic accidents can lead to depression, etc. Your family not having these troubles seems to be cause for thankfulness (not boasting). Of course, I've never been one to tempt karma. 



> I have many more important goals and desires to fulfill for my family and myself. I also do not like being forced to pay an ever increasing amount of my own money and resources for other people to handle the mentally ill. so whats the answer? I am simply done paying any more, if the burdon on myself and my family is placed any higher I am leaving, and then the rest of you will be left dealing with even fewer dollars to deal with these types... and I know for a fact I am not alone, thousands, probably hundreds of thousands out there are just like me. So what do we do? Accept it??? Or move somewhere away from it so we dont have to accept it? Somehow I dont think the later is even allowed.... but /shrug it is what is it is.


 
You're not the first person to wonder about what should be done with those who have a disability or mental illness. Hitler included them in his list of people to kill.


----------



## Flea

This isn't really a response to anyone in particular.  I just realized that I meant to include it in my earlier posts and forgot.  Better late than never.



> More than one-fourth of persons with severe mental illness are victims of violent crime in the course of a year, a rate 11 times higher than that of the general population, according to a study by researchers at Northwestern University.  [ ... ]  Victimization rates vary with the type of violent crime, said the researchers. People with mental illness were eight times more likely to be robbed, 15 times more likely to be assaulted, and 23 times more likely to be raped than was the general population. Theft of property from persons, rare in the general population at 0.2 percent, happens to 21 percent of mentally ill persons, or 140 times as often. Even theft of minor items from victims can increase their anxiety and worsen psychiatric symptoms, the researchers said.
> 
> The direction of causality is the reverse of common belief: persons who are seriously mentally ill are far more likely to be the victims of violence than its initiators, said Leon Eisenberg, M.D., professor emeritus of social medicine and health policy at Harvard Medical School, in an accompanying editorial. The evidence produced by Linda Teplin et al. settles the matter beyond question.



:asian:


----------



## Blade96

luckyxboxer, I have a mental illness - depression. also a tendency to aggressiveness caused by my past and events in my life such as severe bullying which i have written about on here before the latest being the ex. I am a nice person most of the time but sometimes i have behavior problems - a jekyll and hyde personality that manifest themselves in aggression such as breaking things for which my parents called the police on me in october and november.  It was caused by how my ex treated me me being a victim of a controller and  domestic violence - and my parents didnt help me when i lay in bed for nights crying and my mom wouldnt even give me a hug she said I'll only give you one if you cut out that stupid crying. I also have low self esteen, low confidence, care too much what others think of me, am distrustful of people, and dont like authority. Like cops. and psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists and so on. 

I take anti - depressants now and i am glad our system - yes other people pay into it - helps pay for the treatment and helping of people like myself, I get help to pay for my medication. Its a bit insensitive what you wrote there.


----------



## Sukerkin

ballen0351 said:


> Crazy people need to be dealt with in a realistic way, if you are not able to live in society then you should not be living in society.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> But its not the Politically correct thing to do so we allow crazy people to be in charge of themselves release them into society and then they stop taking meds and hurt people. All in the name of being the "Nice Guy"



Ladies and gentlemen, I think that in this case, from the reactions I read above, that what Ballen was saying has been misunderstood.  He was not demonising the mentally ill but rather advocating that proper care and control is required when dealing with them.

I don't think that such things occur because of an overly PC attempt not to be prejudicial in dealing with the mentally ill.  Such things occur because it costs money to keep people in secure hospital facilities.

Over here in England, we have a 'proper' National Health system (or at least we did) and even here glorious Thatcher, as a cost cutting excercise,  introduced the concept of 'Care in the Community' which was the disaster waiting to happen that Ballen ascribed to 'political correctness'.

Mental illness is a complex horror and is one we seldom face up to as a society, preferring not to talk about it.  The percentage of the population that are mentally ill is very high, as has been pointed out earlier.  Thankfully, for most of us that are afflicted, that dysfunction is mild but for some it is severe in the extreme.  I have lived with the spectre of this for pretty much all of my life, since I was ten in fact, as a close family member is manic depressive paranoid schizophrenic (collect the set ).

Thankfully, if that is the right word, her violence turns upon herself rather than on others but it could so very easily have been different.  One of the worst nights of my life was disarming her of the knife she was busy using to fill herself with extra holes that were surplus to requirements - a minute later and I would have been too late (as it was it was touch and go for a while).

When such violence is externalised, focussed on an issue or a cause, we get the distressing outcomes that this thread is about.  Could it have been prevented?  Almost certainly.  But as a society you need to contribute collectively to fund the means to do so - which is something that I do not think will happen.  Thus, tragedies such as this one will happen when a persons distorted reality leads them to irrational and catastrophic action.

My deepst and most sincere sympathies to those slain in this heart-breaking incident, particularly the young girl who was taken before she'd had much chance to live.  The fact that, in the public media at least, this has already become a political talking point says some very bad things about the American system that need to be addressed one way or another.  I know that all important things are 'politics' at the end of the day but each parties supporters trying to use this as a 'chip' in the game is shameful beyond expression.


----------



## Carol

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I think that it would be better to classify people as either able to function in society, able to function in society with help, or unable to function in society with or without help.
> The problem is who is going to make those assessments and what does it mean to those that are deemed unable to function?



BTW - Those criteria are already in place, and are used not only in mental health circles, but with people that have other potentially impairing disorders/diseases, particularly those that affect the brain or central nervous system, and is often communicated both inside and outside clinical practice (ie: vocational services)


----------



## chrispillertkd

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Oh come on seriously..
> I can not be the only one wondering what the hell a Mackeral Snapper is???.....


 
It's a slur referring to a Catholic. It's used by people like the "intelligensia" of the Klan or those who would use words I cannot even post on a BBS to describe African Americans or Jews. 

Why, who was using it?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

chrispillertkd said:


> It's a slur referring to a Catholic. It's used by people like the "intelligensia" of the Klan or those who would use words I cannot even post on a BBS to describe African Americans or Jews.
> 
> Why, who was using it?
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


 
never heard that before, Flea was using it as an example of what mentally ill people feel like when they are called something like whackjob... or associates of mentally ill people.. she listed a bunch of slurs, that she equates to whackjob, this was one of them


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Blade96 said:


> luckyxboxer, I have a mental illness - depression. also a tendency to aggressiveness caused by my past and events in my life such as severe bullying which i have written about on here before the latest being the ex. I am a nice person most of the time but sometimes i have behavior problems - a jekyll and hyde personality that manifest themselves in aggression such as breaking things for which my parents called the police on me in october and november. It was caused by how my ex treated me me being a victim of a controller and domestic violence - and my parents didnt help me when i lay in bed for nights crying and my mom wouldnt even give me a hug she said I'll only give you one if you cut out that stupid crying. I also have low self esteen, low confidence, care too much what others think of me, am distrustful of people, and dont like authority. Like cops. and psychologists, social workers, psychiatrists and so on.
> 
> I take anti - depressants now and i am glad our system - yes other people pay into it - helps pay for the treatment and helping of people like myself, I get help to pay for my medication. Its a bit insensitive what you wrote there.


 
I dont consider this a mental illness, it sounds like weakness to me.
I could care less if I come across as insensitive, I am more concerned about being honest, and trying to say what I mean. I am all for changing my mind if good or great information is provided that changes it. Actually more then a few opinions I have had have been altered by people on this board, and usually they are peoples whos opinions I usually read and shake my head in disgust to.
Like I said though I am not here to be your friend, or worry about your fragile sense of self worth. You also should not give a damn what I think its not a mental illness in my opinion but weakness. I know that it is popular to be politically correct and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make them feel all warm and fuzzy, but I dont buy into that.
I dont post to make anyone feel bad, but I also dont post to make anyone feel good either.
I am simply putting as directly as possible my thoughts so that I can see what people counter them with.. countering them facts, or an opinion is good because I think about it, countering it with sayings its not a nice thing to say means nothing to me. Just because you sometimes get so angry you break things doesnt mean your mentally ill, it simply means you have no self control. Being upset because you allowed yourself to get caught up with an abuser and manipulator is just going to keep you in that victim mindset. 
I think men, and women, who touch their friends, or significant others in anger are scum and should be tossed in jail for it. I also think that those that are abused should leave... I have heard the arguments about why they dont before but they always seem to come down to ignorance for me. Ignorance of where to get help, how to get help, or some other thing. Ignorance is fixable, and maybe you should be mad at your parents for not giving you the skills to make better choices when it comes to relationships I dont know.
It sucks you got abused, however its not anyone elses problem, and you need to take control of it and move on.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Slipper said:


> Actually, the discussion turned to how those with mental illness should not be lumped in the same category as criminals.
> 
> *Ok gotcha, thanks *
> 
> Chances are good that the mentally ill frequently walk on your property. You may not recognize them because they are delivery people, mail carriers, repairmen, etc.
> 
> You're better off not worrying about the mentally ill and instead worrying about anyone with criminal mischief in mind.
> 
> *Well my commen was specifically about mentally ill people doing something threatening, I think my comment was that I am not going to let someone slide simply because they have a mental illness, or appear to have a mental illness, if anything I am going to error on the side of my safety, and not theirs.*
> 
> 
> I truly hope that you never have to worry about anyone in your family facing mental illness. I'm sure you realize that people who have job loss or suffer tragic accidents can lead to depression, etc. Your family not having these troubles seems to be cause for thankfulness (not boasting). Of course, I've never been one to tempt karma.
> 
> *It was not boasting,  I was trying to share the fact that I do not have any first hand knowledge of dealing with a mentally ill person. No family, or friends, although I have some friends with brain damage who have mental issues such as remembering anything, or learning anything new.. not an illness in my opinion though.*
> 
> 
> You're not the first person to wonder about what should be done with those who have a disability or mental illness. Hitler included them in his list of people to kill.


 
*so you dont like my comments and so you are going to insinuate on your reply that i want to mass murder them? Thats friggin ridiculous. *


----------



## Archangel M

Depression..and years of living life "day by day" with all the baggage that goes with it is an enormous obstacle, but never play down the power of individual choice and motivation. Waiting for life to change leaves you nowhere. You have to be the deciding factor in where your life takes you.

Now..SEVERE mental illness. Like this guy. That may just require long term. Or even permanent placement. The days of the asylums may not be the answer. But not everybody can be (or should even attempt to be) "mainstreamed".


----------



## Steve

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I dont consider this a mental illness, it sounds like weakness to me.
> I could care less if I come across as insensitive, I am more concerned about being honest, and trying to say what I mean. I am all for changing my mind if good or great information is provided that changes it. Actually more then a few opinions I have had have been altered by people on this board, and usually they are peoples whos opinions I usually read and shake my head in disgust to.
> Like I said though I am not here to be your friend, or worry about your fragile sense of self worth. You also should not give a damn what I think its not a mental illness in my opinion but weakness. I know that it is popular to be politically correct and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and make them feel all warm and fuzzy, but I dont buy into that.
> I dont post to make anyone feel bad, but I also dont post to make anyone feel good either.
> I am simply putting as directly as possible my thoughts so that I can see what people counter them with.. countering them facts, or an opinion is good because I think about it, countering it with sayings its not a nice thing to say means nothing to me. Just because you sometimes get so angry you break things doesnt mean your mentally ill, it simply means you have no self control. Being upset because you allowed yourself to get caught up with an abuser and manipulator is just going to keep you in that victim mindset.
> I think men, and women, who touch their friends, or significant others in anger are scum and should be tossed in jail for it. I also think that those that are abused should leave... I have heard the arguments about why they dont before but they always seem to come down to ignorance for me. Ignorance of where to get help, how to get help, or some other thing. Ignorance is fixable, and maybe you should be mad at your parents for not giving you the skills to make better choices when it comes to relationships I dont know.
> It sucks you got abused, however its not anyone elses problem, and you need to take control of it and move on.


If someone posted that they had cancer, would you tell them that this was weakness as well?  If someone had diabetes, would you recommend that they just get over it?

I'm with you to an extent.  Sometimes people who are really nothing more than a malingerers hide behind bogus diagnosis.  My experience has been that most of these people haven't actually been diagnosed by a medical professional, but instead kind of identify with the symptoms.  "That's my OCD coming out."  That sort of thing.  I can't tell you how often that one in particular comes up.  And I also believe that these people contribute to some of the misconceptions that surround mental illness.

There's also a misconception that people who suffer from clinical depression have more than a superficial relation to people who are "depressed."  That most of us have been depressed at one time in our lives can mislead us into thinking that we understand what it means to be depressed in the clinical sense.  

Point is, most people think they know more about mental illness than they actually know, and this argument from a position of ignorance can lead people to be crass.


----------



## Big Don

These, by the way, the same "HATEFUL RHETORIC CROSS HAIRS" on the Palin map, aren't cross hairs at all, they are CROP MARKS...
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




Contrast with the Bulls eyes on the DLC's map.


----------



## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> Always good to have a sympathetic attitude towards mental illness which can touch anyone at any time btw. One in three people in the Western world will have a mental illness sometime in their lives, it's nice that people have a good attitude towards it so when you find yourself in need of help, it will be there for you.



I'm not saying eveyone with a mental illness should be locked away.  But there are people out there that should not be allowed in society because they are dangerous.  And atleast in this country there's always a push to let people out that should not be out.  This shooter apparently had teachers in college that knew he was nuts and didn't do anything.  Most people that do stuff like this are known to be nuts and they are not put away when they should be and they end up killing people.
2 officers I knew here were gunned down by a nut that had been in and out of mental hospitals most of his life.
I don't see why we think it's a good idea to allow crazy people to be incharge of taking their own meds they are crazy why should they be trusted?
we have mental health warrants here where we can take crazys into custody and take them to a hospital.  Docs, police, and judges and only ones that can sign one. 75% of the ones we do are on the same people over and over until they either kill themselves or get arrested for a crimes and sent away.  When all along they should have been locked up in a treatment center.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Archangel M said:


> Depression..and years of living life "day by day" with all the baggage that goes with it is an enormous obstacle, but never play down the power of individual choice and motivation. Waiting for life to change leaves you nowhere. You have to be the deciding factor in where your life takes you.
> 
> Now..SEVERE mental illness. Like this guy. That may just require long term. Or even permanent placement. The days of the asylums may not be the answer. But not everybody can be (or should even attempt to be) "mainstreamed".


Mainstreaming is a difficult agenda. Not only do you have to trust people to take their meds, you need to stay on top of changing the meds when need be. When a murderer is found to be on a med, it is a pretty safe bet they have been on it too long. It is an understatement to say mental health is under-funded. 
Sean


----------



## Archangel M

We have the ability to "force" suicidal people into the psych center if they are a danger to themselves or others. most of the time the person is back at home the following morning.


----------



## Slipper

LuckyKBoxer said:


> *so you dont like my comments and so you are going to insinuate on your reply that i want to mass murder them? Thats friggin ridiculous. *


 
You're right I didn't like your comments. 

I don't think for a minute that you want to mass murder those with mental illness or disabilities so calm down.  That comment is based on a historical perspective. I'm a state trained advocate for those with disabilities (including mental illness) and for two months we studied the history of how those with disabilities were treated. It is a fact that they were murdered during that time in gas chambers or experimented upon. They were also sold as curiousities to carnivals, abandoned to die and crowded into asylums. You seem to have a distinct lack of concern regarding those with mental illness and their well-being. If it offends you that Hitler had the same lack of concern, perhaps you should do some soul searching.



> *Well my commen was specifically about mentally ill people doing something threatening, I think my comment was that I am not going to let someone slide simply because they have a mental illness, or appear to have a mental illness, if anything I am going to error on the side of my safety, and not theirs.*


 
If anyone threatens your safety, you should protect yourself and your loved ones. Nobody expects you to jeopardize your safety. There is a distinct difference in what we both are saying but we ultimately agree. You seem to be saying that you will defend yourself against any mentally ill person who threatens you - I am saying that you should defend yourself against any person who threatens you. Again, mental illness should not be lumped into the same category as a criminal. 



> *It was not boasting, I was trying to share the fact that I do not have any first hand knowledge of dealing with a mentally ill person. No family, or friends, although I have some friends with brain damage who have mental issues such as remembering anything, or learning anything new.. not an illness in my opinion though. *


 
Okay, I understand that part better now.


----------



## ballen0351

Tez3 said:


> No one is suggesting that people who are a danger to themselves or others are turned loose on the streets to kill and maim, the general feeling it that blaming all mentally ill people for the actions of one person who is allegedly mentally ill is bang out of order.



but that's what happens more often then not.  One of the worst cases of this I was involved in directly was a woman tried to set her house on fire with her kids inside.  I myself did a mental health warrant on her. 2 days later she was released and 1 week after that we found her hanging from a baseball backstop she hung herself with a purse strap.

everyone can agree there are different degrees of mental illness.  There's functional, nonfunctional, then there is dangerous and sadly the dangerous ones are smart enough to know the right things to say to the docs to be released.


----------



## Empty Hands

Big Don said:


> These, by the way, the same "HATEFUL RHETORIC CROSS HAIRS" on the Palin map, aren't cross hairs at all, they are CROP MARKS...



Keep on spinnin', tiny dancer.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Slipper said:


> You're right I didn't like your comments.
> 
> I don't think for a minute that you want to mass murder those with mental illness or disabilities so calm down.  That comment is based on a historical perspective. I'm a state trained advocate for those with disabilities (including mental illness) and for two months we studied the history of how those with disabilities were treated. It is a fact that they were murdered during that time in gas chambers or experimented upon. They were also sold as curiousities to carnivals, abandoned to die and crowded into asylums. You seem to have a distinct lack of concern regarding those with mental illness and their well-being. If it offends you that Hitler had the same lack of concern, perhaps you should do some soul searching.
> 
> *no there is a big difference and if you cant see its because your blinded by wanting to lash out at anyone who doesnt side with you on the subject. I am actually indifferent, in that I dont know what the answer is, I  believe in basic human rights, and have no interest in killing anyone but the worst of the worst, the criminal murders, serial killers, child molestors, rapists, etc.  Hitler obviously was not indifferent he did care and sought to exterminate them, if you can not see the difference then your probably in need of mental help yourself.*
> 
> If anyone threatens your safety, you should protect yourself and your loved ones. Nobody expects you to jeopardize your safety. There is a distinct difference in what we both are saying but we ultimately agree. You seem to be saying that you will defend yourself against any mentally ill person who threatens you - I am saying that you should defend yourself against any person who threatens you. Again, mental illness should not be lumped into the same category as a criminal.
> 
> *I am of the distinct state of mind that anyone who threatens me is mentally insane. I dont believe a person in their right mind would threaten me.*
> 
> Okay, I understand that part better now.


 
Like I said previously, my comments are straight to the point, not meant to anger, but not meant to sugarcoat either. I try to simply say exactly what I am thinking, how I am thinking it. When I have a done to pick with someone or something I do not make any hidden attempts at it I am pretty straight forward and outright with my anger or feelings.


----------



## crushing

Empty Hands said:


> Keep on spinnin', tiny dancer.


 
Bullseye?  They look more like the crosshairs in the finderscope accessory on my telescope than any bullseye.


----------



## Carol

crushing said:


> Bullseye?  They look more like the crosshairs in the finderscope accessory on my telescope than any bullseye.



Its a Palin-drome. 

Shhh.  She can see Russia from her house, you know...


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

stevebjj said:


> If someone posted that they had cancer, would you tell them that this was weakness as well? If someone had diabetes, would you recommend that they just get over it?
> 
> *It depends. If the person got cancer from smoking the last ten-twenty years then no I dont have pity for them. If its a kid who got cancer because their parents smoked then I am both angry at the parents, and heartbroken for the kid. Its a case by case scenario. Diabetes? If the person is fit and takes care of themselves then it sucks, if they are 350 pounds and sucking down the medication rather then get fit then no i have no pity for them. Alot of people have alot of bad things happen to them because they are stupid, or ignorant in most cases, or just careless and dont care. that I have no feelings for. The truely innocent cases are the ones that make me feel bad.*
> 
> I'm with you to an extent. Sometimes people who are really nothing more than a malingerers hide behind bogus diagnosis. My experience has been that most of these people haven't actually been diagnosed by a medical professional, but instead kind of identify with the symptoms. "That's my OCD coming out." That sort of thing. I can't tell you how often that one in particular comes up. And I also believe that these people contribute to some of the misconceptions that surround mental illness.
> 
> There's also a misconception that people who suffer from clinical depression have more than a superficial relation to people who are "depressed." That most of us have been depressed at one time in our lives can mislead us into thinking that we understand what it means to be depressed in the clinical sense.
> 
> Point is, most people think they know more about mental illness than they actually know, and this argument from a position of ignorance can lead people to be crass.


 
*I dont pretend to know anything about mental illnesses. I simply look at certain scenarios and have to call BS.*
*But I get where you are coming from, I just think that to many people are abusing it because they want an excuse to remain how they are rather then work hard to strive for more.*


----------



## ballen0351

I also think many docs over diagnose people with mental illness.  After I shot someone I had to see a doc before I could go back to work. Doc asked me a bunch of questions and then said I had Post tramaitic stress disorder.  When I asked how he figured that he said because I answered yes to the question about staying awake at night thinking about the incident.  I told him he was a quack it happened 2 weeks ago of course I think about it.  I left and never went back.  
seems like all you need is a sad story and you can get a diganoses of mental illness.  That floods the system and allows the true mentaly Ill to fall through the cracks


----------



## Archangel M

Gimme a break. The press and even our president have used metaphors like "they bring a knife we bring a gun". This Palin thing is a blatant and disgusting way of trying to score "points" off of a tragedy.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Carol said:


> Its a Palin-drome.
> 
> Shhh. She can see Russia from her house, you know...


 
shhhhhhhhh shes hunting russian caribou for the show...shes got a bitchen scope! lol


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> *I dont pretend to know anything about mental illnesses. I simply look at certain scenarios and have to call BS.*



So you admit you know nothing about mental illness, but you are perfectly comfortable deciding what those with mental illnesses are capable of, and what they should be doing?  That's a pretty remarkable arrogance to be unfazed by it's admitted ignorance.

Better hope you don't develop something later in life.  You might get back what you've been giving.


----------



## Archangel M

Carol said:


> Its a Palin-drome.
> 
> Shhh.  She can see Russia from her house, you know...



How did a Saturday Night Live skit get turned into thinking she actually said that?

Not you Carol...but many people actually think that is a direct quote. The same people who think that a years old map with a "crosshair" makes her liable for this.

It's sickening all the way around.


----------



## Steve

Lucky.  On a phone do bestwith typos.   I didn't ask whether you'd pity them.  I asked if you'd suggest they just will the illness away. If youd tell them they're just being weak.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Carol said:


> Its a Palin-drome.
> 
> Shhh. She can see Russia from her house, you know...


 
And Obama can see all 57 states from the White House :lol:

Seriously, Obama can't get the number of states in the U.S. right and people insist Palin doesn't know anything because of what Tina Fey said? Only in America, baby :lol:

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Carol

Archangel M said:


> How did a Saturday Night Live skit get turned into thinking she actually said that?
> 
> Not you Carol...but many people actually think that is a direct quote. The same people who think that a years old map with a "crosshair" makes her liable for this.
> 
> It's sickening all the way around.



It is indeed sickening.  My flu-addled brain was just trying to find some levity.   Getting rather boring waiting for my next dose of tylenol and gatorade


----------



## Big Don

> CONTROL DATA AND MONUMENTS
> Principal point


OMG!!!!111oneeleventy, the US Geological Survey is using HATEFUL RHETORIC
(Halfway down the page on the right side...)


----------



## Slipper

> Post by Lucky Boxer:
> *no there is a big difference and if you cant see its because your blinded by wanting to lash out at anyone who doesnt side with you on the subject. I am actually indifferent, in that I dont know what the answer is, I believe in basic human rights, and have no interest in killing anyone but the worst of the worst, the criminal murders, serial killers, child molestors, rapists, etc. Hitler obviously was not indifferent he did care and sought to exterminate them, if you can not see the difference then your probably in need of mental help yourself. *




Just as a point of interest, when your argument dissolves to accusing me of needing mental help, you start losing credibility.  I'm not blindly lashing out because you don't agree with me. Nor do you anger me. I can dislike your comments without being angry and 'lashing out'. 



> *I am of the distinct state of mind that anyone who threatens me is mentally insane. I dont believe a person in their right mind would threaten me. *




Mugging, breaking and entering, etc. Not necessarily mentally ill. Quite definitely though, a criminal act.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> So you admit you know nothing about mental illness, but you are perfectly comfortable deciding what those with mental illnesses are capable of, and what they should be doing? That's a pretty remarkable arrogance to be unfazed by it's admitted ignorance.
> 
> Better hope you don't develop something later in life. You might get back what you've been giving.


 
ya well Im not worried about it, and I am ignorant about mental illnesses on a whole, but while its seems pretty apparant to me that some of the more extreme disorders are valid, when someone makes bad choices and then is unhappy with those bad choices, I would say thats them being pathetic, not them having a mental disorder of depression.
and look at you mr sympathetic, wishing mental illnesses on others... whats with you people? someone has a differnet opinion, or simply doesnt care about soemthing you might and you want to insinuate they are murders, or wish them mental illnesses... once again who is the sick one here? I dont wish anyone any problems other then like I said before the truely disgusting peopel in our society, the mass murders, serial killers, child molestors, rapists, etc... you make me sick, but I still dont wish you harm... lame.


----------



## billc

In the least I think these posts show that the free reign of the liberal press and media is over.  People are realizing that they can't just sit back and shake their heads at the goofy things left wing politicians and media people do.  All day long I have heard the hate coming from the left just in the last 60 days, and yet it is the tea party and Sarah palin, and rush and beck.  The days of just taking these attacks and letting them stand are over.  No more.  It is time to say what you mean and stick to it.  thanks LuckyBoxer, archangel, and ballen 0351, big don and Bill mattocks for not being cowed by the, "the heated political rhetoric needs to stop" (word not shown) that is being forced on people who disagree, with passion, about the culture, politics and everything else.


----------



## Big Don

Empty Hands said:


> Keep on spinnin', tiny dancer.








 Now there are some bulls eyes, oh, bonus, "ripe targets for Democrats"
About the Democratic Leadership Council 


> While other organizations continue to focus on political messaging,  the central mission of the new DLC will be to develop and fight for  ideas that can happen and reforms that will work.


Only "Hateful rhetoric" when used by conservatives?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

stevebjj said:


> Lucky. On a phone do bestwith typos. I didn't ask whether you'd pity them. I asked if you'd suggest they just will the illness away. If youd tell them they're just being weak.


 
gotcha my bad, not yours...
no I dont think they can just will cancer, or aids, or something similar away.
I guess to be blunt I dont believe the hype. I think the terminology of mental illness is abused and overused to give people a reason to be lazy and not try to be better people.
I do not believe that depression is a mental illness, I think its someone being to weak minded to break themselves out of a funk. I think that horrible things can happen to people that break their spirit, but once again I do not consider that a mental illness, and thats when family and friends need to step in and support a person... not drugs, not doctors, and not my tax dollars.
I have a cousin who lost his wife unexpectedly to a brain anuerism(spelling i know..) hes upset, its a couple months later and he is getting better, now is that grief, or depression, or both?
I think its natural to be upset, and depressed, and I also think its natural to find what is important and fight back from that and move forward.
But I do not think its a mental illness.
does that clarify my answer for you?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Slipper said:


> [/b]
> 
> Just as a point of interest, when your argument dissolves to accusing me of needing mental help, you start losing credibility.  I'm not blindly lashing out because you don't agree with me. Nor do you anger me. I can dislike your comments without being angry and 'lashing out'.
> 
> [/b]
> 
> Mugging, breaking and entering, etc. Not necessarily mentally ill. Quite definitely though, a criminal act.


 
my point was that you thought my thoughts were the same as hitlers..
I expressed how we were different, and commented that if it seems the same you got issues  nothing personal.. while I try to be straight to the point I have a definite sarcastic twist to my posts.... im like that in person too.. maybe i wasnt hugged enough as a child and need some meds and some understanding for my mental state


----------



## billc

Bighollywood has a whole page of hate radiating from the recent, and not so recent, past from our wonderful entertainment community. The list is truly amazing. I wonder how many regular people who just go about their lives know how hateful the left in hollywood really is when they are not reading a script.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/

1. Flashback: Wanda Sykes Hopes Rush Limbaugh's Kidneys Fail
3. Flashback: 'Boondocks' Creator McGruder Calls Condi Rice, Colin Powell Murderers
10. Flashback: Montel Williams Urges Michele Bachmann to kill herself
13. Flashback: Sean Penn Calls Reagan's Alzheimer's 'Justice'
4. Flashback: Ebert's Site Praises Left-wing Bush Assassination Film
6. Flashback: Alec Baldwin threatens to Stone Henry Hyde, kill children
12. Flashback: Jeff Wells Praises metaphor of 'Hobo' film blasting wealthy with shotgun

Oh, the love. Makes me feel all warm inside.


----------



## Archangel M

This whole "blame talk radio and PALIN PALIN PALIN!!!!" thing stinks of so much hypocrisy I want to gag.


----------



## Carol

Archangel M said:


> This whole "blame talk radio and PALIN PALIN PALIN!!!!" thing stinks of so much hypocrisy I want to gag.



We as a nation have been here before.


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> and look at you mr sympathetic, wishing mental illnesses on others... whats with you people?...you make me sick, but I still dont wish you harm... lame.



Read it again, more slowly this time.  I didn't wish anything on you.


----------



## Empty Hands

Big Don said:


> Now there are some bulls eyes, oh, bonus, "ripe targets for Democrats"



You're not answering the point, which is that Palin herself called the marks "bullseyes", making the argument that they are "surveyeor's marks" rather fatuous.  What the Democrats do or do not do will not change that point.

I don't think Palin is responsible for the shooting.  However, you don't get to just pretend that up is down and left is right then change the subject when someone calls you on it.


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I do not believe that depression is a mental illness, I think its someone being to weak minded to break themselves out of a funk.



Then you are stupendously ignorant on the subject and no one should pay the slightest attention to your opinions on mental illness.  Blunt enough for you?  You don't know anything about it, you have no experience with it, and you have no experience with anyone suffering through it.  You have no words worth listening to on the subject.

Would you spout off on quantum mechanics without knowing anything about it?  Would you claim that the theory of relativity was nonsense without even bothering to read it first?  So why is this different?

Again, better hope none of this happens to you or those you love.  What you sow, you reap a thousandfold.  That isn't a wish for you either, so don't go off on that tangent.  What I wish is for you to know something about those you presume to judge so you don't do your part in making their lives harder.


----------



## harlan

Yes.



Empty Hands said:


> Then you are stupendously ignorant on the subject and no one should pay the slightest attention to your opinions on mental illness. Blunt enough for you? You don't know anything about it, you have no experience with it, and you have no experience with anyone suffering through it. You have no words worth listening to on the subject.
> 
> Again, better hope none of this happens to you or those you love. What you sow, you reap a thousandfold. That isn't a wish for you either, so don't go off on that tangent. What I wish is for you to know something about those you presume to judge so you don't do your part in making their lives harder.


 
_"I wish people would have taken a better notice of him and gotten him help. ... He had nobody, and that's not a nice place to be."_

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot


----------



## ballen0351

harlan said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> _"I wish people would have taken a better notice of him and gotten him help. ... He had nobody, and that's not a nice place to be."_
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_congresswoman_shot


 Hmmmm So he was a nut everyone knew and he should have been put away.  Who would have guessed.  Now people are dead because its politically incorrect to lock up crazy people.


----------



## Empty Hands

ballen0351 said:


> Now people are dead because its politically incorrect to lock up crazy people.



It is not politically incorrect to lock up the mentally ill.  The big push to get people out of mental institutions and on to the streets occurred under President Reagen, for monetary reasons.  Here is a page with an overview and links to the guidelines for involuntary commitment in Arizona.  I don't see anything on there about "political correctness", only a fairly reasonable set of guidelines balancing self/community danger with individual liberty.

Not everything is about your parochial political concerns.


----------



## ballen0351

Empty Hands said:


> It is not politically incorrect to lock up the mentally ill. The big push to get people out of mental institutions and on to the streets occurred under President Reagen, for monetary reasons. Here is a page with an overview and links to the guidelines for involuntary commitment in Arizona. I don't see anything on there about "political correctness", only a fairly reasonable set of guidelines balancing self/community danger with individual liberty.
> 
> Not everything is about your parochial political concerns.


 Has nothing to do with my Political Concerns has EVERYTHING to do with public safety.  I dont need a page on Involuntary Commitments I deal with them on a daily basis.  The system is broken and needs to be fixed but nobody wants to talk about it for fear of sounding insensitive to the crazys.  Even after this incident people would rather focus on "Did you hear what Palin said" then the real problem which is there are 1000's of people just like this guy all over this country that are ticking time bombs.


----------



## billc

There may be evidence that this kid was stalking the congresswoman years before Palin was ever a well known public figure.  Someone pointed out that there is evidence that the kid was attending her meetings way before Palin was picked by Mccain for the v.p. position.  Palin and the tea party had nothing to do with this.  Political rhetoric had nothing to do with this.  Anyone who says that they did is  a political hack, trying to score points off of the suffering of these victims.


----------



## billc

Here is an articel that looks at what happened at columbine.  The two kids just wanted to cause as much destruction as possible, without anyone specifically targeted.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/17/columbine-massacre-gun-crime-us

uch of what we reported, though, was simply wrong, as attested by tens of thousands of official documents and other evidence that has at last seen the light of day after years of suppression by the local authorities. As the Colorado-based journalist Dave Cullen tells in his gripping and authoritative new book Columbine, Harris and Klebold had plenty of friends, did pretty well in school, were not members of the Trenchcoat Mafia, did not listen to Manson, were not bullied, harboured no specific grudges against any one group, and did not "snap" because of some last-straw traumatic event. All those stories were the product of hysteria, ignorance and flailing guesswork in the first few hours and days.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> Then you are stupendously ignorant on the subject and no one should pay the slightest attention to your opinions on mental illness. Blunt enough for you? You don't know anything about it, you have no experience with it, and you have no experience with anyone suffering through it. You have no words worth listening to on the subject.
> 
> Would you spout off on quantum mechanics without knowing anything about it? Would you claim that the theory of relativity was nonsense without even bothering to read it first? So why is this different?
> 
> Again, better hope none of this happens to you or those you love. What you sow, you reap a thousandfold. That isn't a wish for you either, so don't go off on that tangent. What I wish is for you to know something about those you presume to judge so you don't do your part in making their lives harder.


 
Oh get off your high horse, you have no idea what you are talking about either, and there is no evidence that depression is treated any better with medication then without.
Its all a crap shoot and every study I have ever seen on the subject has just as much on one side as the other. Plus the failure rate of people diagnosed with depression treated with drugs is astronomical, so get your facts straight. I can admit when I am ignorant on something, but you seem to think your a professional and I would be surprised if you are not as ignorant on the subject as I am.


----------



## granfire

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Oh get off your high horse, you have no idea what you are talking about either, and there is no evidence that depression is treated any better with medication then without.
> Its all a crap shoot and every study I have ever seen on the subject has just as much on one side as the other. Plus the failure rate of people diagnosed with depression treated with drugs is astronomical, so get your facts straight. I can admit when I am ignorant on something, but you seem to think your a professional and I would be surprised if you are not as ignorant on the subject as I am.




Whoa, Cowboy, got anything to pack that up?


----------



## Sukerkin

Lucky (and others) I fear you are going beyond "being blunt" at this stage. 

I would suggest a little calmer reflection on what you are going to say before you put fingers to keyboard might help. It's the one advantage you have with communicating in this way rather than face to face - time to think before blurting out the first thing that comes into your head.

Mark A. Beardmore
MT Mentor


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

granfire said:


> Whoa, Cowboy, got anything to pack that up?


 
Why do I have to do the footwork? I am not trying to convince anyone, If you want to change my opinion then you provide the irrefutable research.
Its pretty easy to go get research that backs what I say. Just go do a little work if it matters to you.


----------



## granfire

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Why do I have to do the footwork? I am not trying to convince anyone, If you want to change my opinion then you provide the irrefutable research.
> Its pretty easy to go get research that backs what I say. Just go do a little work if it matters to you.



Like I said, whoa Cowboy. Point me to what you were reading so I can see where you come from...that way I will reserve my judgment over this outrageous statement until later.

Since obviously you have not dealt with depression in any shape.....


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

granfire said:


> Like I said, whoa Cowboy. Point me to what you were reading so I can see where you come from...that way I will reserve my judgment over this outrageous statement until later.
> 
> Since obviously you have not dealt with depression in any shape.....


 
Oh we have dealt with depression in our family and friends..
we just didnt go deal with drugs and doctors to get over them.
You want me to call youo a cute little nickname too? Hows Chuckles? you can call me Cowboy, Ill call you chuckles?? Or you want to try to address the actually conversation, and not be a hypocrite? seems some of you guys get all butt hurt if someone calls you a name, but when you feel someone doesnt side with you then its AOK to call them whatever you choose, to insinuate they are gun firing, wild west cowboys, or hitler inspired genocidal maniacs... its really only a tactic that works with idiots, so you let me know what you want to do there Granfire... I can call you Granfire, or your real name, and then we can argue about how we dont like each others opinions, or we can call each other cowboy and chuckles and argue about hwo we dont like each others opinions, you let me know.. Im fine either way.


----------



## Steve

LuckyKBoxer said:


> gotcha my bad, not yours...
> no I dont think they can just will cancer, or aids, or something similar away.
> I guess to be blunt I dont believe the hype. I think the terminology of mental illness is abused and overused to give people a reason to be lazy and not try to be better people.
> I do not believe that depression is a mental illness, I think its someone being to weak minded to break themselves out of a funk. I think that horrible things can happen to people that break their spirit, but once again I do not consider that a mental illness, and thats when family and friends need to step in and support a person... not drugs, not doctors, and not my tax dollars.
> I have a cousin who lost his wife unexpectedly to a brain anuerism(spelling i know..) hes upset, its a couple months later and he is getting better, now is that grief, or depression, or both?
> I think its natural to be upset, and depressed, and I also think its natural to find what is important and fight back from that and move forward.
> But I do not think its a mental illness.
> does that clarify my answer for you?


I think that this is where the disconnect is.  There's a difference between being depressed and being diagnosed with depression.  Depression is a state that we've all experienced.  Periods of grief and mourning, stressful times, it happens.  We've all been there.  It's this familiarity that actually can lead to misconceptions.  Add the malingerers and people who self diagnose inappropriately (I have OCD or I suffer from depression) that skews the perception of what it means to be clinically depressed.  I've seen both and it's pretty clear to me that there is a real difference between someone who is depressed and someone who suffers from depression.  

Telling someone that they just get over mental illness is like telling someone to walk off a broken leg.  Sure, the leg might heal on its own eventually, but if you get some actual medical help, it'll heal faster and better than if you try to pretend nothing's wrong.   Or, worst case, the leg never heals.

Anyway, these are just my thoughts.  I'm not suggesting that anyone change their opinions... just be open to the idea that you don't know as much about mental illness as you think.


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I can admit when I am ignorant on something, but you seem to think your a professional and I would be surprised if you are not as ignorant on the subject as I am.



I'm a molecular neuroscientist.

Interested in reading some journal articles?  I hope you're up on your striatal circuitry and the dorsal raphe serotonergic system.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> I'm a molecular neuroscientist.
> 
> Interested in reading some journal articles? I hope you're up on your striatal circuitry and the dorsal raphe serotonergic system.


 

So this would be like me thinking I know everything about Kajukenbo since I am a Black Belt in Kenpo Karate... similar, but not the same.

Oh so sorry that you dont think I understand medical terms, my moms a doctor, my sister is working on her doctorate at USC, Im surrounded by doctors in one field or another in my family, so your little digs do nothing more then show your pompous attitude.. you think that your going to get your little buddies here to chuckle, thinking you pulled one over on the guy who doesnt agree with you? See if I were to do something like that you and your friends would be screaming I was a bully, or using bully tactics.. its pathetic.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

stevebjj said:


> I think that this is where the disconnect is. There's a difference between being depressed and being diagnosed with depression. Depression is a state that we've all experienced. Periods of grief and mourning, stressful times, it happens. We've all been there. It's this familiarity that actually can lead to misconceptions. Add the malingerers and people who self diagnose inappropriately (I have OCD or I suffer from depression) that skews the perception of what it means to be clinically depressed. I've seen both and it's pretty clear to me that there is a real difference between someone who is depressed and someone who suffers from depression.
> 
> Telling someone that they just get over mental illness is like telling someone to walk off a broken leg. Sure, the leg might heal on its own eventually, but if you get some actual medical help, it'll heal faster and better than if you try to pretend nothing's wrong. Or, worst case, the leg never heals.
> 
> Anyway, these are just my thoughts. I'm not suggesting that anyone change their opinions... just be open to the idea that you don't know as much about mental illness as you think.


 
yes this is were we are differing in our thoughts.
I am not convinced that depression at any level is an illness that is necessary to have medical and professional invervention for.
You and several others here are obviously on the other side of that fence.
I appreciate that, I just don't buy into it.
And as far as the mental illness knowledge goes, even the most esteemed experts are changing their minds on things daily, and proving past theories incorrect. So even though in the field the prevailing theory is that it requires medical invervention, It is not the only theory, and it is not proven to be the only method, and in fact in when medically treated there are all kinds of failures with the medications, and the results.
So if someone wants to tell me I am wrong, then I am going to need some type of facts that are irrefutable to show me where I am wrong... show me that and I will be the firs tone to say yep I am wrong, thanks for informing me. 
The problem is these people want me to jump on their bandwagon, and accept whatever they say as gospel. IT doesn't work that way.


----------



## granfire

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Oh we have dealt with depression in our family and friends..
> we just didnt go deal with drugs and doctors to get over them.
> You want me to call youo a cute little nickname too? Hows Chuckles? you can call me Cowboy, Ill call you chuckles?? Or you want to try to address the actually conversation, and not be a hypocrite? seems some of you guys get all butt hurt if someone calls you a name, but when you feel someone doesnt side with you then its AOK to call them whatever you choose, to insinuate they are gun firing, wild west cowboys, or hitler inspired genocidal maniacs... its really only a tactic that works with idiots, so you let me know what you want to do there Granfire... I can call you Granfire, or your real name, and then we can argue about how we dont like each others opinions, or we can call each other cowboy and chuckles and argue about hwo we dont like each others opinions, you let me know.. Im fine either way.




Call me what you want, just don't call me late for dinner.

So why are you ranting about name calling yet?


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> So this would be like me thinking I know everything about Kajukenbo since I am a Black Belt in Kenpo Karate... similar, but not the same.



Do you know what a neuroscientist is?  My Master's work was in a lab that studied the serotonergic system and depression.  While my primary focus in my postdoctoral work is on developing drugs for addiction and recovery, they also have potential applications in depression, and I keep a hand in the literature.

So yes, you are talking to a professional.  Your gambit failed.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Oh so sorry that you dont think I understand medical terms, my moms a doctor, my sister is working on her doctorate at USC, Im surrounded by doctors in one field or another in my family, so your little digs do nothing more then show your pompous attitude



So what is the role of the dorsal raphe serotonergic system in depression?  If you actually knew, then you probably wouldn't claim that depression doesn't exist - nor would you admit to knowing nothing about depression.  What they do is show you that your claims to the contrary, I know a lot more about depression than you do.  A wise man listens to those more educated on a topic than they are, not insist that their learning makes them "pompous" - much less incorrect.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> See if I were to do something like that you and your friends would be screaming I was a bully, or using bully tactics.. its pathetic.



No, what's bullying and pathetic is calling people with depression or other mental illnesses "weak".

Look, you admit you know nothing, and you are talking with people that have both experience with the disease AND are scientific professionals studying it.  Your position is completely ignorant and untenable.  Admit that, apologize for your ignorant insults, and move on.  Your increasing flailing is just making you look worse.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> Do you know what a neuroscientist is? My Master's work was in a lab that studied the serotonergic system and depression. While my primary focus in my postdoctoral work is on developing drugs for addiction and recovery, they also have potential applications in depression, and I keep a hand in the literature.
> 
> So yes, you are talking to a professional. Your gambit failed.
> 
> *I still believe you are in a related field not in the field of depression itself.*
> *Answer me this then, what is the laboratory test to diagnose major depression?*
> *this should be easy for you, since you are a neuroscientist after all.... wait whats that? There is none? oh ok....*
> 
> So what is the role of the dorsal raphe serotonergic system in depression? If you actually knew, then you probably wouldn't claim that depression doesn't exist - nor would you admit to knowing nothing about depression. What they do is show you that your claims to the contrary, I know a lot more about depression than you do. A wise man listens to those more educated on a topic than they are, not insist that their learning makes them "pompous" - much less incorrect.
> 
> *I couldn't tell you with any certainty, I would assume it has to do with seratonin, and norepinephrine though... but while it has a play in the levels of things, it doesn't explain how it works, or why it works, or how to change it... does it?*
> 
> No, what's bullying and pathetic is calling people with depression or other mental illnesses "weak".
> 
> *umm no, I disagree, I am not calling them names, I simply think they are not trying. I am not trying to hold them down, I am simply not offering to spend my time trying to do what I feel they should be doing for themselves.*
> 
> Look, you admit you know nothing, and you are talking with people that have both experience with the disease AND are scientific professionals studying it. Your position is completely ignorant and untenable. Admit that, apologize for your ignorant insults, and move on. Your increasing flailing is just making you look worse.


 
*I have experience with looking at the stars, yet I couldn't tell you how they ended up where they are now with a 100% certainty. And you are studying it, you havent solved it, you are trying to figure things out, thats great, I hope you succeed, I hope you are the person that unlocks all the secrets that solves the problem one way or the other once and for all, but last I looked it isnt solved is it?*
*you can say to ignore the man behind the curtain, but the fact is you dont know.. your searching for an answer right?*


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> *I still believe you are in a related field not in the field of depression itself.*



What does it matter even if I was?  Does that somehow justify your belief and your _admitted _ignorance in the face of all evidence to the contrary?



LuckyKBoxer said:


> *Answer me this then, what is the laboratory test to diagnose major depression?*
> *this should be easy for you, since you are a neuroscientist after all.... wait whats that? There is none? oh ok....*



There are neurochemical correlates with depression.  Decreased serotonin release after stimulation for one, which is why serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are effective (although not the whole story).  Unfortunately, the way that is measured is by sticking microdialysis tubes into the brain, which is a bad idea in people for a host of reasons.  The limitation is technical, not based on knowledge.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> *I couldn't tell you with any certainty, I would assume it has to do  with seratonin, and norepinephrine though... but while it has a play in  the levels of things, it doesn't explain how it works, or why it works,  or how to change it... does it?*



It does in part - that is why drugs which block serotonin reuptake are effective.  Norepinephrine uptake blockade is also part of the mechanism of the tricyclic antidepressants.  So yes, those neurotransmitters explain a lot.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> *umm no, I disagree, I am not calling them names, I simply think they  are not trying.*



It may not be a name, but it is a massive insult none the less.  Also completely ineffective.  Do you ever bother for a minute to figure out _why _someone would _want _to feel so bad if all they had to do was try a little?  It almost becomes dehumanizing at that point to not even consider others as you would yourself.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> *you can say to ignore the man behind the curtain, but the fact is you dont know.. your searching for an answer right?*



The answer I'm searching for is a better understanding of mechanism and better drugs for treatment - *NOT TO FIND OUT IF DEPRESSION EVEN EXISTS!  *Your comparison to the stars is instructive, because following your logic, because you don't understand how the stars got there, then they must not exist!


----------



## chrispillertkd

billcihak said:


> Bighollywood has a whole page of hate radiating from the recent, and not so recent, past from our wonderful entertainment community. The list is truly amazing. I wonder how many regular people who just go about their lives know how hateful the left in hollywood really is when they are not reading a script.
> 
> http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/
> 
> 1. Flashback: Wanda Sykes Hopes Rush Limbaugh's Kidneys Fail
> 3. Flashback: 'Boondocks' Creator McGruder Calls Condi Rice, Colin Powell Murderers
> 10. Flashback: Montel Williams Urges Michele Bachmann to kill herself
> 13. Flashback: Sean Penn Calls Reagan's Alzheimer's 'Justice'
> 4. Flashback: Ebert's Site Praises Left-wing Bush Assassination Film
> 6. Flashback: Alec Baldwin threatens to Stone Henry Hyde, kill children
> 12. Flashback: Jeff Wells Praises metaphor of 'Hobo' film blasting wealthy with shotgun
> 
> Oh, the love. Makes me feel all warm inside.


 
Conversely, this is kind of interesting:

http://althouse.blogspot.com/2011/01/heres-partial-list-of-some-of-incidents.html

Looks like learning from one's past mistakes isn't high on the list of priorities of the Libs.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Archangel M

Majority doesn't blame rhetoric for Giffords shooting



> WASHINGTON (Reuters)  A majority of Americans reject the view that heated political rhetoric was a factor in the weekend shootings in Arizona which killed six and critically wounded a congresswoman, a CBS News said on Tuesday.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> What does it matter even if I was? Does that somehow justify your belief and your _admitted _ignorance in the face of all evidence to the contrary?
> 
> *all evidence? what evidence? there is just as much evidence that medical intervention makes the problem as bad or worse. There is no evidence that depression is only able to be treated medically. Thats my point. I don't have to have a doctorate and be the most knowledgable person on the planet to read and understand reports, and studies that say there is no proven treament one way or the other. You assume me calling myself ignorant means im an idiot. Thats your hang up not mine.*
> 
> There are neurochemical correlates with depression. Decreased serotonin release after stimulation for one, which is why serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) are effective (although not the whole story). Unfortunately, the way that is measured is by sticking microdialysis tubes into the brain, which is a bad idea in people for a host of reasons. The limitation is technical, not based on knowledge.
> 
> *Fair enough, the fact remains there is no laboratory test to show whats going on and how to effectively treat it, or that it even has to be treated medically, or that its even not able to be reversed by simply living life and having a support system of friends and famiy to be just that friends and family. There is nothing that says how and why those chemical levels are doing what they do, and what effects them is there? So you can not say with any degree of certainty that it is not something that a person can not reverse on their own.. Diabetes for example is a disease that often is reversible by peopel simply changing what they are doing and getting fit. I have personally seen peopel on 4-5 medications lose all of them by losing fat and eating better. No medication necessary. I believe depression is similar.*
> 
> It does in part - that is why drugs which block serotonin reuptake are effective. Norepinephrine uptake blockade is also part of the mechanism of the tricyclic antidepressants. So yes, those neurotransmitters explain a lot.
> 
> *They can be effective, they can also be devastating. When you start using drugs to replace the bodies ability to produce certain chemicals the body will stop doing it, and then your stuck relying on a drug that may or may not work long term. There are plenty of stories of people with so called depression getting messed up on the medical drugs perscribed for them and committing suicide, or something worse. I will grant you the drugs may or may not be the reason they are committing suicide and worse, but then again there is no proof or understanding as far as I know anyways as to why the body is not putting the chemicals out, and if the body can regaint he equilibrium necessary to not be depressed.. I still believe its about intent, some people get so intent on being sick that they are able to mentally effect their immune system and get sick. *
> 
> It may not be a name, but it is a massive insult none the less. Also completely ineffective. Do you ever bother for a minute to figure out _why _someone would _want _to feel so bad if all they had to do was try a little? It almost becomes dehumanizing at that point to not even consider others as you would yourself.
> 
> *it is not an insult if what I believe is true. It is not like me calling someone with downs syndrome a derogatory name, its not like me calling someone of a specific race a derogatory name.. it would be like me telling someoen who is upset that they cant run a mile because they dont try lazy and they should just get up and start doing it. Now like I said, prove me wrong, and show me where it is not a choice, but a condition proven to be caused against a persons will and then I will rethink my opinions on it.*
> 
> The answer I'm searching for is a better understanding of mechanism and better drugs for treatment - *NOT TO FIND OUT IF DEPRESSION EVEN EXISTS! *Your comparison to the stars is instructive, because following your logic, because you don't understand how the stars got there, then they must not exist!


 

*of course you are looking for better drugs for treatment, the medical establishment is always looking for ways to get people to live longer, but rely on medications... go make your money.. I think it would be more important to figure out why a person is losing the ability to equalize the chemicals needed, and if that condition can be reversed without medication, rather then just finding a way to get a buck by getting someone stuck on another medication to replace somehting their body already does anyways.*
*I never said depression doesn't exist. You just are not getting my point.*
*depression exists, I dont consider a mental illness, I consider a frame of mind, and reversable..*
*you know what will be interesting, there is some headway being made into erasing memory... as scary as that technology is, and the many ways it can be misused. I am  really curious if in cases of people with severe depression, who also have traumatic episodes in their past if erasing those memories would get rid of the depression as well... *


----------



## Touch Of Death

LuckyKBoxer said:


> *of course you are looking for better drugs for treatment, the medical establishment is always looking for ways to get people to live longer, but rely on medications... go make your money.. I think it would be more important to figure out why a person is losing the ability to equalize the chemicals needed, and if that condition can be reversed without medication, rather then just finding a way to get a buck by getting someone stuck on another medication to replace somehting their body already does anyways.*
> *I never said depression doesn't exist. You just are not getting my point.*
> *depression exists, I dont consider a mental illness, I consider a frame of mind, and reversable..*
> *you know what will be interesting, there is some headway being made into erasing memory... as scary as that technology is, and the many ways it can be misused. I am  really curious if in cases of people with severe depression, who also have traumatic episodes in their past if erasing those memories would get rid of the depression as well... *


Therapy helps, but I know people who are so, manic depressive they hallucinate, which incidently is call schizophrenic manic depression. Guess what? Therapy won't help to get the dragons off the ceiling.
Sean


----------



## Steve

LuckyKBoxer said:


> yes this is were we are differing in our thoughts.
> I am not convinced that depression at any level is an illness that is necessary to have medical and professional invervention for.
> You and several others here are obviously on the other side of that fence.
> I appreciate that, I just don't buy into it.
> And as far as the mental illness knowledge goes, even the most esteemed experts are changing their minds on things daily, and proving past theories incorrect. So even though in the field the prevailing theory is that it requires medical invervention, It is not the only theory, and it is not proven to be the only method, and in fact in when medically treated there are all kinds of failures with the medications, and the results.
> So if someone wants to tell me I am wrong, then I am going to need some type of facts that are irrefutable to show me where I am wrong... show me that and I will be the firs tone to say yep I am wrong, thanks for informing me.
> The problem is these people want me to jump on their bandwagon, and accept whatever they say as gospel. IT doesn't work that way.


I'm okay with that.  We'll agree to disagree.   I'm not equipped to give you the proof you're looking for, and I don't think that anything will change your mind except for, god forbid, someone you know well and personally respect being diagnosed with some form of mental illness.   

In cases like this, honestly, I hope that never happens.  I'd rather continue to respectfully disagree with you than have you experience mental illness, either personally or peripherally through someone you know and respect.  I also hope that, if it does ever happen, you'll be a little kinder to your friend than you were to Blade96.  I respect your opinions completely, but that was pretty cold.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

stevebjj said:


> I'm okay with that. We'll agree to disagree. I'm not equipped to give you the proof you're looking for, and I don't think that anything will change your mind except for, god forbid, someone you know well and personally respect being diagnosed with some form of mental illness.
> 
> *Thanks, to make myself clear though I do believe that there are metnal illnesses, I just dont believe that depression is one.*
> 
> In cases like this, honestly, I hope that never happens. I'd rather continue to respectfully disagree with you than have you experience mental illness, either personally or peripherally through someone you know and respect. I also hope that, if it does ever happen, you'll be a little kinder to your friend than you were to Blade96. I respect your opinions completely, but that was pretty cold.


 
I also appreciate that comment. I went back to reread what I posted to Blade96, and I while I agree it comes off as cold, I have no emotional connection with her to make it warm, and my comments were not meant to be hurtful but to the point. The meaning can be twisted to seem hurtful, but that was not the intention. Sometimes trying to write on a forum and omit any expression of emotion leaves way to much to interpretation.
So to make myself clear I have no ill will towards anyone on this planet except.....
criminals who murder, rape, molest, or hurt innocent people, and people who want to interfere with my way of life, or take from me to suit their own agendas. People with different opinions, politics, religions, hobbies, tastes, etc from me do not bother me at all, and actually make life more enjoyable. I wouldnt want to live in a place where everyone was a carbon copy of me. Its one of the reasons I have stayed in California for so long, although the environment is becoming more and more hostile here for successful business owners, and if continues to get worse then I will have to move elsewhere.../shrug


----------



## Touch Of Death

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I also appreciate that comment. I went back to reread what I posted to Blade96, and I while I agree it comes off as cold, I have no emotional connection with her to make it warm, and my comments were not meant to be hurtful but to the point. The meaning can be twisted to seem hurtful, but that was not the intention. Sometimes trying to write on a forum and omit any expression of emotion leaves way to much to interpretation.
> So to make myself clear I have no ill will towards anyone on this planet except.....
> criminals who murder, rape, molest, or hurt innocent people, and people who want to interfere with my way of life, or take from me to suit their own agendas. People with different opinions, politics, religions, hobbies, tastes, etc from me do not bother me at all, and actually make life more enjoyable. I wouldnt want to live in a place where everyone was a carbon copy of me. Its one of the reasons I have stayed in California for so long, although the environment is becoming more and more hostile here for successful business owners, and if continues to get worse then I will have to move elsewhere.../shrug


Presentation is the Master Key to winning friends and influencing people. You and I are kindred spirits when it comes to being too blunt.
Sean


----------



## Blade96

Suit yourself. luckykboxer. I can tell you're not here to make friends.  or to care about anyone's 'fragile sense of self worth' I do. I go on the internet not just to discuss topics but also to meet people and make friends. I made quite a few friends on here and other forums as welltry to be nice to others and write my thoughts in a way so that i dont come across as insulting or insensitive.  I do care about others feelings. and I do care about how they see me, as well. I see that as a good thing, not something bad.

but let me tell you something. I have been depressed most of my life, was a victim of abuse, grew up with a dysfunctional family, and was on anti - depressants for some years while I was getting me degree. I got off them when i started doing better than I met my ex.  It came back, i was depressed for months, went back to see the doctor, and he told me and my mom depression often happens in cycles. You can be depressed then seem to be doing better than it can happen again. And depression can run in families, I have had relatives with it, my brother battled it for more than ten years, he went to a psychologist and was diagnosed as not only depressed but having social phobia because he talked to the doc and he was exhibiting all the signs of the two, that and depression. It was horrible, I was fraid for him because I know what it is like. I and my bro have had suicidal thoughtas, and I have been fighting it for most of my life. trying to deal with it, while I was fighting, i did my univ degree. Now I'm considering my Masters, so please don't refer to me as weak. My bro and I are still here, he has a Daughter and a gf he loves, and he is working, he is doing better, he loves his daughter (now one year old) snd of course his cat Zoey, who's been with him now ten years and has been there helping him with his problems. And my three cats had been helping me since I was a child. 

while I struggle to build my life i got my degree. When Christmas holidays were over I returned to my dojo to do my Shotokan, knowing that my ex and his new gf trains there, and it hurts to have to see him and have anything to do with him (his gf's nice and i dont mind her very much)  I take my anti - depressants and still train and consider my Masters, I dont think those are signs of someone being 'weak' and/or 'lazy' and or ' giving up' and 'not trying to better or continue on with their life, do you?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Blade96 said:


> Suit yourself. luckykboxer. I can tell you're not here to make friends. or to care about anyone's 'fragile sense of self worth' I do. I go on the internet not just to discuss topics but also to meet people and make friends. I made quite a few friends on here and other forums as welltry to be nice to others and write my thoughts in a way so that i dont come across as insulting or insensitive. I do care about others feelings. and I do care about how they see me, as well. I see that as a good thing, not something bad.
> 
> *To each their own, I never said it was bad, or wrong to make friends over the internet, I simply said it was not why I was here. Do what makes you happy, I do not have any interest in actively searching out peopel to be my friends here, I have a completely different agenda, I am here to pass the time, to read information on different arts I might be interested in, and apparantly to get caught up in social issues, poilitical issues, etc. the last I can do without to be honest, but I get some good information from here on occasion.*
> 
> but let me tell you something. I have been depressed most of my life, was a victim of abuse, grew up with a dysfunctional family, and was on anti - depressants for some years while I was getting me degree. I got off them when i started doing better than I met my ex. It came back, i was depressed for months, went back to see the doctor, and he told me and my mom depression often happens in cycles. You can be depressed then seem to be doing better than it can happen again. And depression can run in families, I have had relatives with it, my brother battled it for more than ten years, he went to a psychologist and was diagnosed as not only depressed but having social phobia because he talked to the doc and he was exhibiting all the signs of the two, that and depression. It was horrible, I was fraid for him because I know what it is like. I and my bro have had suicidal thoughtas, and I have been fighting it for most of my life. trying to deal with it, while I was fighting, i did my univ degree. Now I'm considering my Masters, so please don't refer to me as weak. My bro and I are still here, he has a Daughter and a gf he loves, and he is working, he is doing better, he loves his daughter (now one year old) snd of course his cat Zoey, who's been with him now ten years and has been there helping him with his problems. And my three cats had been helping me since I was a child.
> 
> *It sounds like a bunch of mess I wouldn't want to deal with, but I do not have any pity for you, and It does not change my mind on what I think. It soudns to me like a bunch of bad decisions, and issues that are correctable and avoidable. I know thats not what you want to hear, but I am not going to lie to sugar coat anything. I don't wish you any bad luck or ill will, and I hope you can get out of the messy cycle you seem to be in. But that is going to be for you to do, not me, and not anyone else on the internet.*
> 
> while I struggle to build my life i got my degree. When Christmas holidays were over I returned to my dojo to do my Shotokan, knowing that my ex and his new gf trains there, and it hurts to have to see him and have anything to do with him (his gf's nice and i dont mind her very much) I take my anti - depressants and still train and consider my Masters, I dont think those are signs of someone being 'weak' and/or 'lazy' and or ' giving up' and 'not trying to better or continue on with their life, do you?


 
*I can't tell what you are doing from what you say on the internet. I don't consider school hard at all, I don't consider training anything but a pleasure, so I can't say one way or the other is you are lazy or not. I do think that depression is a weakness, not an illness, and I think that it can effect event he strongest of people at times, the key isn't that it effects you in my opinion but how you deal with it and then move on. I think I made my thougths pretty clear on the subject, and anymore discussion is just going to be redundant until something new is introduced. Like I said I wish you no ill will, so if you choose to take that way its your issue not mine.*


----------



## Blade96

I dont wish you ill will either. 

But I  know a woman who's daughter (a young adult like myself) who had to be hospitalized for her depression after her father died like about a year and a half ago or something. 

I wasnt hospitalized, I chose to go the drug route. And I had tried therapy but all they did was (as I had mentioned before) call me autistic and things like that. _I was diagnosed with depression as well and thats what got me on the pills. But none of them were very good to talk to.

Bad desicions? The fact I was bullied and abused all 10 grade levels of school by teachers as well as peers, severely, plus kindergarten as well was the result of bad descisions? I got abused by my ex because I made a bad decision? It was not my fault he hurt me, I was nothing but nice to him. The fact everyone including my own parents called me lazy when i couldnt do my work in school (or doing my university degree, it took me ten years to get it) because of my depression meant i was just lazy or weak? or the fact I didnt pass my orange belt test in Karate because i was depressed and didnt have the energy to do well or train?  Bullying and abuse is avoidable and correctable? yes it was avoidable all right - I ended up having to quit high school because nobody would help not even the staff at the school who knew what was going diwn and did nothing about it. I didnt get my high school diploma because of that. You do know the effects can be lifelong, right?

But again, like I said, suit yourself.
_


----------



## granfire

Blade96 said:


> I dont wish you ill will either.
> 
> But I  know a woman who's daughter (a young adult like myself) who had to be hospitalized for her depression after her father died like about a year and a half ago or something.
> 
> I wasnt hospitalized, I chose to go the drug route. And I had tried therapy but all they did was (as I had mentioned before) call me autistic and things like that. _I was diagnosed with depression as well and thats what got me on the pills. But none of them were very good to talk to.
> 
> Bad desicions? The fact I was bullied and abused all 10 grade levels of school by teachers as well as peers, severely, plus kindergarten as well was the result of bad descisions? The fact everyone including my own parents called me lazy when i couldnt do my work in school (or doing my university degree, it took me ten years to get it) because of my depression meant i was just lazy or weak? or the fact I didnt pass my orange belt test in Karate because i was depressed and didnt have the energy to do well or train?  Bullying and abuse is avoidable and correctable? yes it was avoidable all right - I ended up having to quit high school because nobody would help not even the staff at the school who knew what was going diwn and did nothing about it. I didnt get my high school diploma because of that. You do know the effects can be lifelong, right?
> 
> But again, like I said, suit yourself.
> _




Like many things it can't be appreciated if you have not walked a few steps in those shoes. Sometimes the indominable spirit means getting out of bed in the morning.


----------



## Blade96

granfire said:


> Like many things it can't be appreciated if you have not walked a few steps in those shoes. Sometimes the indominable spirit means *getting out of bed* in the morning.



And I find it hard even to do that. But I make myself do it, because there are things that I love and makes me happy. Like doing karate, and my cat Princess. And I am currently seeking an appointment with the guy in charge to find out all about the History masters program at university.


----------



## granfire

Blade96 said:


> And I find it hard even to do that. But I make myself do it, because there are things that I love and makes me happy. Like doing karate, and my cat Princess. And I am currently seeking an appointment with the guy in charge to find out all about the History masters program at university.



Exactly. 

It is not easy to describe how it feels when the act of just being zaps every ounce of energy from you. It is not a fun place to be, pun not intended.


----------



## Blade96

granfire said:


> Exactly.
> 
> It is not easy to describe how it feels when the act of just being zaps every ounce of energy from you. It is not a fun place to be, pun not intended.



and when you have a lack of support system around you - there are hardly any people i can talk to and confide in - it makes it much hader. Cause you're there by yourself trying to deal.

At least these forums let me talk about it my past and stuff and people here and on another martial arts forum have been mostly supportive. Love all of ya.  and thanks :angel:


----------



## Langenschwert

LuckyKBoxer said:


> *I do think that depression is a weakness, not an illness*


 
This may sound terse, but it's not intended as such.

There's a difference between "feeling depressed" and having clinical depression. If having clinical depression is a "weakness", then having a broken leg isn't really an injury, it's just a "weakness" and really, one should just suck it up and walk on the damn thing. Casts are for weenies, and a crutch is well, "just a crutch, man". Clinical depression is a physiological state, not an emotional one. You can't just suck it up and move on and "Get over it". I've known people with incredibly strong minds who were crushed by clinical depression. It's as much an injury as a broken arm is, and requires medical care.

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Langenschwert said:


> This may sound terse, but it's not intended as such.
> 
> There's a difference between "feeling depressed" and having clinical depression. If having clinical depression is a "weakness", then having a broken leg isn't really an injury, it's just a "weakness" and really, one should just suck it up and walk on the damn thing. Casts are for weenies, and a crutch is well, "just a crutch, man". Clinical depression is a physiological state, not an emotional one. You can't just suck it up and move on and "Get over it". I've known people with incredibly strong minds who were crushed by clinical depression. It's as much an injury as a broken arm is, and requires medical care.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
Ya apparantly you missed the entire rest of the conversation before that. I have never seen any study that shows that medical treatment works any better then not using drugs. I also would state that the vast majority of people who are institutionalized have more then depression wrong with them. Like I said before I am perfectly willing to change my stance, show me the laboratory test that shows depression, or show me the documentation that it does in fact require medical intervention to correct. I have seen nothing that shows irrefutable evidence that it does, and until I do I will continue to believe what I believe.


----------



## Steve

Langenschwert said:


> This may sound terse, but it's not intended as such.
> 
> There's a difference between "feeling depressed" and having clinical depression. If having clinical depression is a "weakness", then having a broken leg isn't really an injury, it's just a "weakness" and really, one should just suck it up and walk on the damn thing. Casts are for weenies, and a crutch is well, "just a crutch, man". Clinical depression is a physiological state, not an emotional one. You can't just suck it up and move on and "Get over it". I've known people with incredibly strong minds who were crushed by clinical depression. It's as much an injury as a broken arm is, and requires medical care.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


Mark,  I said almost exactly the same thing.  Great minds think alike, and all that.   As I said later, I think that he'll have to hear it from someone he knows personally and considers credible.


----------



## granfire

stevebjj said:


> Mark,  I said almost exactly the same thing.  Great minds think alike, and all that.   As I said later, I think that he'll have to hear it from someone he knows personally and considers credible.



Probably more like falling into the abyss of despair...


----------



## Langenschwert

stevebjj said:


> Mark, I said almost exactly the same thing. Great minds think alike, and all that.  As I said later, I think that he'll have to hear it from someone he knows personally and considers credible.


 
<Keanu> Whoa. </Keanu>

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Langenschwert

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Ya apparantly you missed the entire rest of the conversation before that. I have never seen any study that shows that medical treatment works any better then not using drugs. I also would state that the vast majority of people who are institutionalized have more then depression wrong with them. Like I said before I am perfectly willing to change my stance, show me the laboratory test that shows depression, or show me the documentation that it does in fact require medical intervention to correct. I have seen nothing that shows irrefutable evidence that it does, and until I do I will continue to believe what I believe.


 
Yeah, I didn't read the whole thread. Far too massive to read the whole damn thing. Mea Culpa. Anywho...

I can only speak from my personal experience with depressed people. The difference between medicated and non-medicated behaviour in my experience is rather extreme, from bat-feces crazy to normal and happy-go-lucky in a matter of days, which is about how long the medication usually takes to enter the system.

Now, medication is not the ONLY answer. Cognitive behavioural therapy can work wonders for some, and not at all for others.

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Flea

granfire said:


> Probably more like falling into the abyss of despair...



"Cancer of the soul" is my analogy of choice.

In any case, I'm done with my little educational spiel here.  Those who get it, get it.  And those who don't, don't.

Thanks for reading, y'all.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

It is threads like these which caused me to take a two week voluntary commitment (pun intended) to stay away from here.

I know that I am coming late to the party, but I would like to beg your indulgence.

Bill Mattocks:

I understood what you were trying to do from the moment you first posted in this thread.  The problem was not with your analogy, nor your intent.  It was with your tactical timing.  When you post, prior to any evidence that this person had any affiliation with the Tea Party, was a Tea Party sympathizer, was right wing in any way, you automatically fall into the category of being a right-wing hater.  To be blunt, you shot your wad too early.  

The fact of the matter is, no matter how _you _decide to look at these issues in relation to illegal immigrant criminals or Muslim terrorists, you decided to address it from your perspectives, and not there's.  Even I, who understood what you were trying to do, am now forced by my nature to look at is as though you are making a connection without any evidence to support it.  

You say*:  "*I'm waiting to hear from the same guys who would not waste a minute proclaiming if the shooter had been middle-eastern in origin or from south of the border."  The fact of the matter is that there is often evidence to show that the person was from "south of the border" or Muslim (not merely Middle-eastern in origin) that allows such commentary to be made, no matter how illogical.

You also said:  "I have asked if it is OK to blame the Tea Party for the actions of *a lone wacko*. If not, then I wonder why it is OK to blame illegal aliens for the actions of *lone wackos* who are illegal aliens, or *members *of a certain religion when someone tries to light their shoes on fire on a plane."

Notice the difference in your own statement, a lone wacko, singular, versus lone wakos, plural, and members, plural.  What we can deduce from your statement is that this event was singular in origin, however there have been a mulititude from the illegal immigrant community or from certain religions.  (I would also argue that the lone wackos from the illegal immigrant or religous community aren't exactly "lone" as they are usually a part of "groups", but that's besides the point.  Once is a chance, twice is a coincidence, and three times may show a pattern.  But even still, you did not show that this person had any ties to the Tea Party.  It could have been just as easy to say that he was a left-wing wacko who didn't like her because she didn't go far enough to the left.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

I would now like to address the mental health equation of this debate.  I'll start by giving my bona fides.

I am a police supervisor who has been trained for ten years regarding mental illness; how to see it, some of the symptoms, and how to deal with it (at least on a small basis).  I also have a mother-in-law who is paranoid schizophrenic who has caused her 16 year old son want to hurt her and want to commit suicide because he's tired of dealing with her.  I also have a six year old daughter who was just "diagnosed" with ADHD.  So though I am not a psychologist / psychiatrist, I have both personal and professional experience in dealing with, as we call them in my business, Emotionally Disturbed People (EDP).

First, I would like to address Tez point about "one in three people in the Western world will *have* a mental illness sometime in their lives."  Not to single you out, as others have reiterated this here as well, but I call BS.

I do believe that the statistic may hold true if we change the bolded word from *have* to *be diagnosed with.  *We can't seem to go a day without some new "strain" of mental illness being developed to classify our differences.  I am not an expert in autism by any means, but it seems a perfect example of my point.  We keep coming up with subtler and subtler diagnosis of the illness to the point where a perfectly functioning and capable individual will still be diagnosed with it.  

Now, understand that I am not trying to say that I don't believe in mental illness, because I do.  It just seems that we keep trying to cram *differences *into different categories of illness. 

Quite frankly, I would love to see the idyllic person from which standard we judge.  

So for my personal experience, I will hold up my oldest daughter, who just prior to Christmas was "diagnosed" with ADHD.  Now she lives primarily with her mother in another state, and I only get to see her a few times a year.  when I talk with her mother, I hear some of the "horror" stories about her misbehavior.  But when I talk with her mother, I explain to her that when she is with me, I do not have those issues.  When I asked my daughter why she does those things with her mother and at school, but not with me, her exact words were "because I know what you'll do".  Not only that, but due to educational testing, she is in kindergarten for the second half of the day, but first grade for the first half.  When she is in first grade, she doesn't cause any disturbances, probably because she is kept engaged by the material.  My daughter has even stated to me that she does the things that get her into trouble because she is bored.

Not only that, but her diagnosis was based on a doctor's interpretation of the subjective viewpoints of her teacher (who even my wife says has a bias against her), her mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, and I think one or two more people who have regular contact with her.  

Where is the objective test that would determine such a diagnosis?  

Now, without getting into my beliefs regarding our Prussian style of education leading to some of these problems, based on her disparate behavior based on her environment, does she have ADHD or are her problems related to not being given or having properly enforced behavioral boundries.  

I know for a fact that schools are given more funding per student if that student has a "learning disability".  That is an incentive for schools and doctors to have children diagnosed as having some type of mental illness.  Not only that, but lets not begin to discuss the pharmacutical industries' incentive for having everyone on drugs.

But as a counterpoint, my mother-in-law is a paranoid schizophrenic (non-diagnosed).  She hears voices in her head and has delusions.  Now she is just smart enough to "fool" a psychologist into making her seem sane, and there is nothing we seem to be able to do to get her the help that she needs, but does not want.  It is frustrating as hell, for me primarily because I see the stress that it causes my wife.  So I am certainly sympathetic for those seeking a solution.  

I think that, perhaps, if we would cut down on what I believe to be onerous diagnosises for what are really differences, then perhapse we would have the capability to afford to take care of those who are truly in need of mental health services.


----------



## granfire

Oye, my sympathies to you.

However, in your own little world you mention 5 people and one is not quiet right and - oh heck...I understand there are kids that really have it bad. but in the US they do tend to over diagnose ADHD (and over medicate). Don't get me wrong. I am all for helping folks out that really have it, but doping the kids up just so they are quiet in class...i do not like.


However, in your own post you do make the Tez's point. Statistics are a b.... though. If you don't have it in your family, you know somebody else will pick up the slack for you: Friends of my step mom had 2 kids. Their son was scitzophrenic, the daughter, bright young lady with lots of promise one day jumped off a building.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Empty Hands said:


> I'm a molecular neuroscientist.
> 
> Interested in reading some journal articles? I hope you're up on your striatal circuitry and the dorsal raphe serotonergic system.


 
I just have to throw this out there.

You are a molecular neuroscientist which is a person who studies, in a nutshell, how the human brain works on a chemical level, correct?

In what way does this make you an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of clinical depression.  Is your particular study related to such?  You said that you keep your hand in such stuff, but does that classify you as an expert?

The reason that I ask, quite frankly, is that when people bring up astrophysists, astonomers, geologist, meteorologists, in regards to them being against global warming, you state that they are not experts and can pretty much be disregarded because they are not climatologists, even though they have interdisciplinary study in the climate.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

granfire said:


> Oye, my sympathies to you.
> 
> However, in your own little world you mention 5 people and one is not quiet right and - oh heck...I understand there are kids that really have it bad. but in the US they do tend to over diagnose ADHD (and over medicate). Don't get me wrong. I am all for helping folks out that really have it, but doping the kids up just so they are quiet in class...i do not like.


 
So if we are so willing to classify children who's behaviour that we don't like in order to medicate them to get them to behave as we want, why would we not do the same to adults. 



> However, in your own post you do make the Tez's point. Statistics are a b.... though. If you don't have it in your family, you know somebody else will pick up the slack for you: Friends of my step mom had 2 kids. Their son was scitzophrenic, the daughter, bright young lady with lots of promise one day jumped off a building.


 
Not quite sure what post of Tez' you think I'm making.  I don't discount the fact that mental illness exists.  What I am arguing is that the studies, from my perspective, seem to be subjective, not objective, and that everything is for some reason becoming aberrant behaviour needing therapy or medication.

In other words, there seems to be no baseline normal and we are all f****d up.


----------



## granfire

5-0 Kenpo said:


> So if we are so willing to classify children who's behaviour that we don't like in order to medicate them to get them to behave as we want, why would we not do the same to adults.


Heaven knows some people need the meds....I don't have the answer though. 





> Not quite sure what post of Tez' you think I'm making.  I don't discount the fact that mental illness exists.  What I am arguing is that the studies, from my perspective, seem to be subjective, not objective, and that everything is for some reason becoming aberrant behaviour needing therapy or medication.
> 
> In other words, there seems to be no baseline normal and we are all f****d up.



I might have looked at another post, my computer loads slow sometimes and the screen jumps around. the 2 out of three statistic...

Well, and then of course there is that one little proverb: The only normal people are those we don't know well. We are pretty much all batpoop crazy. Some just take the cake and rock the boat for us. 

But yes, the bottom line is that if you can fake it in polite society, you are good.


----------



## Blade96

Kenpo you write nice posts and I would have to agree, as I said Docs never called me anything when i was young in the late 70's and early 80's but fast forward to the first decade of the 21 century when i was in my mid twenties and i am now called 'autistic' I was, no joke. I do think labels are being given too freely and medications yes. My next door neighbor who has slight cerebral palsy used to be all doped up on drugs when she was in grade school. She is now 22 and doing a diploma at post secondary education. they said she had add or some such thing.

While I do think labels and diagnosis get over given out at times I dont agree with luckykboxer that depression is 'only a weakness and a person being pathetic' as I have said I have it, I know i wasnt wrongly diagnosed. My bro suffered from it too, as do the woman's daughter I wrote about. I absolutely know what its like to have it and struggle with it.

But I also know that while professionals have over used labels and meds, that doesnt believe autism, depression or what not does not exist or is merely a weakness instead of a real disease syndrome or disorder.


----------



## granfire

I always get the feeling once they come up with a cool abreviation they have to wear it out and use it. It does not help that Reader's Digest has pages of advertisement for medications, Ritalin etc are favorites: take a pill and life is all smiles.

Life used to be hell for the undiagnosed people, but we have swung the pendulum the other direction. Sometimes the whack on the bottom is a better treatment than a pill IMHO. Or a lot of fresh air and exercise, things too many people lack these days. 

I do understand how teachers want the classroom to be quiet, so they can get their stuff done. But from what I gathered (and yes, ran the gambit a few years ago) the US is by far the leader in the numbers and the doses when it comes to kids and the AD disorders. I mean, BY FAR....


----------



## Blade96

yeah. Its what i believe too. Certain people need it, but, if someone is just having 'the blues' thats normal and not necessarily clinical depression. So you dont go Here, take a pill.

For example when i was almost 24 i spent 3 weeks in bed literally because my 15 year old cat had just died. I had the blues. But that wasnt my depression because I was ableto carry on after a few weeks. (I got permission from my russian prof at the time to have my due date for an essay moved to later because of my cats death.) That cat was the love of my life and I grieved but mourning is a normal period and not necessarily clinic depression. At least not in my case it wasnt. Now this woman who's daughter was hospitalized, she developed clinical depression after her dad died about a year and a half ago. It got so bad she wasnt sleeping at all and she was a total insomniac. 

I havegone through the blues and I have depression. so I know the difference between the two.

I would love for Luckykboxer to know that clinical depression is a real disorder/disease and not just weakness. But I dont want him to find out by him getting something, or one of his loved ones getting something. As someone else said, I'd rather agree to disagree.


----------



## Tez3

The 1 in 3 firgures for mental illness/disorder come from the World Health Organisation accepted in the UK as correct and include things like OCD, PTSD, agoraphobia, post natal depression, bulimia, anorexia, personality, mood, stress and anxiety problems as well as the more well known mental disorders such as clinical depression etc.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Tez3 said:


> The 1 in 3 firgures for mental illness/disorder come from the World Health Organisation accepted in the UK as correct and include things like OCD, PTSD, agoraphobia, post natal depression, bulimia, anorexia, *personality*, mood, stress and anxiety problems as well as the more well known mental disorders such as clinical depression etc.



Okay.  I don't dispute that the statistic is derived from some place.  It's just interesting that we all seem to have some disorder or another, or will get one at some time.  

Have you ever read the description of some of these disorders.  Hell, I fall into multiple categories on some of these.  For instance, Schizotypal Personality disorder is characterized as having some, though not necessarily all, of the following traits: 

A disorder characterized by eccentric behaviour and anomalies of thinking and affect which resemble those seen in schizophrenia, though no definite and characteristic schizophrenic anomalies have occurred at any stage. There is no dominant or typical disturbance, but any of the following may be present:

Inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
Behaviour or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;
Poor rapport with others and a tendency to social withdrawal;

Those pretty much describe me several times throughout the day.  I guess I'm crazy.  

Quite frankly, a lot of these diagnosises are so vague and general that they can describe just about anyone.  Yes, I do understand that these descriptions are for consistent behavior, but so what.  I am consistently aloof, exhibit odd behavior (when compared to my peers), and have a tendency to be socially withdrawn (in school, I used to walk around campus reading books rather then playing with my peers and even now I like to go to a quiet place to read at work rather then socialize with my contemporaries).

If asked to explain why I am often that way I could, and I'm sure that some brilliant psychologist would simply fit me neatly into some other category of disorder.  

God forbid it is just us making our way through life as best we know how, and not a disorder.  I have my reasons for why this seems to be the prevailing attitude, but I'll bring that up later maybe.


----------



## Tez3

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Okay. I don't dispute that the statistic is derived from some place. It's just interesting that we all seem to have some disorder or another, or will get one at some time.
> 
> Have you ever read the description of some of these disorders. Hell, I fall into multiple categories on some of these. For instance, Schizotypal Personality disorder is characterized as having some, though not necessarily all, of the following traits:
> 
> A disorder characterized by eccentric behaviour and anomalies of thinking and affect which resemble those seen in schizophrenia, though no definite and characteristic schizophrenic anomalies have occurred at any stage. There is no dominant or typical disturbance, but any of the following may be present:
> 
> Inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
> Behaviour or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;
> Poor rapport with others and a tendency to social withdrawal;
> 
> Those pretty much describe me several times throughout the day. I guess I'm crazy.
> 
> Quite frankly, a lot of these diagnosises are so vague and general that they can describe just about anyone. Yes, I do understand that these descriptions are for consistent behavior, but so what. I am consistently aloof, exhibit odd behavior (when compared to my peers), and have a tendency to be socially withdrawn (in school, I used to walk around campus reading books rather then playing with my peers and even now I like to go to a quiet place to read at work rather then socialize with my contemporaries).
> 
> If asked to explain why I am often that way I could, and I'm sure that some brilliant psychologist would simply fit me neatly into some other category of disorder.
> 
> God forbid it is just us making our way through life as best we know how, and not a disorder. I have my reasons for why this seems to be the prevailing attitude, but I'll bring that up later maybe.


 

I think that 'disorders' are catergorised differently from 'illnesses'. As I've said before your 'condition/disorder' wouldn't exist if you were English lol, we like our eccentricities. 
There is a difference between post natal depression which is an illness and OCD which is a condition/disorder. As a very rough guide look at who's treating the patient, (it is a rough guide though) a pyschiatrist treats the illnesses and the psychologist treats the conditions. 
A friend of mine, a military psychiatric nurse recently returned from Afghan, he'd spent part of his time working with the Americans as he had done in Iraq. He said that mental health was looked at in a very different way by the American professionals, it was along the lines of your post....that everyone nearly always has something wrong with them and if you say you haven't you are just in denial. It isn't the way it's looked at here, not just in the military but outside too. If anything we are the other way. As I said we tolerate 'out of synch' behaviour far more than probably other people do.

My point though was that mental illnesses are more common than people who don't believe in mental illnesses think. One thing people might like to consider is the horror of Alzheimers, is that just a weakness? Do we shout, pull yourself together man at someone with it? It's a very real illness and while you can say it's not a 'mental' illness as such it's something that affects the brain as other condtions can such as clinical depression, bi polar etc do.


----------



## Empty Hands

5-0 Kenpo said:


> You are a molecular neuroscientist which is a person who studies, in a nutshell, how the human brain works on a chemical level, correct?



Yep.



5-0 Kenpo said:


> In what way does this make you an expert in the diagnosis and treatment of clinical depression.  Is your particular study related to such?



I never claimed to be an expert in diagnosis and treatment.  It was not necessary to address the claim that clinical depression does not exist.  I study in part the molecular and physiological mechanism by which depression occurs, which makes me well qualified to comment on the existence of said disease.

Of course, I would like to note that I did not bring up my qualifications at all until Lucky essentially said "I bet you don't know anything either!".  I don't like to make my arguments from Authority, and the focus of my argument was the evidence and reasoning, not "I'm Right Because I Have A PhD."


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Empty Hands said:


> I never claimed to be an expert in diagnosis and treatment. It was not necessary to address the claim that clinical depression does not exist. I study in part the molecular and physiological mechanism by which depression occurs, which makes me well qualified to comment on the existence of said disease.
> 
> Of course, I would like to note that I did not bring up my qualifications at all until Lucky essentially said "I bet you don't know anything either!". I don't like to make my arguments from Authority, and the focus of my argument was the evidence and reasoning, not "I'm Right Because I Have A PhD."


 
Yes, just an astrophysist, or a meteorologist, or a environmental scientist can understand the mechanisms which cause, or don't cause, golbal warming, but in the past you have readily dismissed their findings in regards to the subject because they were not specifically climatologists.

You stated that you keep you hand in the studies on depression, so I am assuming meaning that it is not your primary area of study.  Just as many of these scientist do.  So the question becomes, why shouldn't we disregard your expertise as entirely unrelated to the existence of depression.  I would think at most we could say that you could say that this chemical reaction in the brain acts as a catalyst for this one, and so on and so forth.


Maybe I have a misunderstanding of what you feild entails, who knows,  I just find it ironic, is all. I'll let it go as I don't want to derail the thread any further.


----------



## Empty Hands

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Yes, just an astrophysist, or a meteorologist, or a environmental scientist can understand the mechanisms which cause, or don't cause, golbal warming, but in the past you have readily dismissed their findings in regards to the subject because they were not specifically climatologists.



First of all, they weren't "findings", which was the problem.  I assume you mean the Turner thread, and in that case, that eminent physicist offered not the slightest bit of data.  If he had, the argument would be different.

Second, I study depression.  None of the scientists you refer to that I have seen study climate.

Third, what I said was that unless you spend the time and effort to master the literature of the field, then you cannot possibly know enough to challenge the findings of those who do.  If you do put in the time, years of time, then obviously you become so qualified - titles aren't magic, it's the knowledge and expertise that matters.  TANSTAAFL - you have to put in the effort.

Fourth, depression and climate change are fundamentally different types of problems to study.  In the case of depression, individual experiences and the experiences of lay people are of importance, since it is a disease of the mind.  In the case of climate change, individual experiences are meaningless, since it is a global phenomenon.  Thus, between the two, when debating existence vs. nonexistence, inexpert but experiential opinions matter more for depression.

Lastly, I never said anyone should take my word for it.  Anyone is free to challenge my arguments or data with anything of their own at any time.  I never even brought up my qualifications until Lucky gambled that I had no expertise and thus would shut my argument down.  That gamble failed.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> First of all, they weren't "findings", which was the problem. I assume you mean the Turner thread, and in that case, that eminent physicist offered not the slightest bit of data. If he had, the argument would be different.
> 
> Second, I study depression. None of the scientists you refer to that I have seen study climate.
> 
> Third, what I said was that unless you spend the time and effort to master the literature of the field, then you cannot possibly know enough to challenge the findings of those who do. If you do put in the time, years of time, then obviously you become so qualified - titles aren't magic, it's the knowledge and expertise that matters. TANSTAAFL - you have to put in the effort.
> 
> Fourth, depression and climate change are fundamentally different types of problems to study. In the case of depression, individual experiences and the experiences of lay people are of importance, since it is a disease of the mind. In the case of climate change, individual experiences are meaningless, since it is a global phenomenon. Thus, between the two, when debating existence vs. nonexistence, inexpert but experiential opinions matter more for depression.
> 
> Lastly, I never said anyone should take my word for it. Anyone is free to challenge my arguments or data with anything of their own at any time. I never even brought up my qualifications until Lucky gambled that I had no expertise and thus would shut my argument down. That gamble failed.


 
it wasn't a gamble, don't pat yourself on the back for asking a simple question. The fact is you absolutely are not dealing with depression directly. You are dealing with finding how the mind handles the chemicals, and if there is a reason the mechanism breaks or stops functioning, etc.etc.. big difference. 

Also just because so many people want to declare Depression a mental illness the fact remains there is absolutely no irrefutable proof that depression is anything more then a person remaining in a really bad mood. People have gotten into and out of depression with nothing more then the support of family and friends. Medication has not been proven to do anything better for people arbitrarily diagnosed with depression... there is after all no laboratory test for it. It wouldnt be to hard for someone to read up on the "disease", or "illness" and walk into a doctors and get diagnosed with it. So go ahead and have your opinion, but realize it is in fact an opinion, not a fact. Until you can prove it, or someone else can prove it its not a fact. Its a hypothesis, that people with a vested interest are pushing that depression is a serious illness that should be treated with medication... even though no study exists that shows that the medication they perscribe itself isnt as bad or even worse then no medication at all.
Get off your high horse, and actually get back to reality. Just because you want  something to be a certain way  does not mean it is.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Empty Hands said:


> First of all, they weren't "findings", which was the problem. I assume you mean the Turner thread, and in that case, that eminent physicist offered not the slightest bit of data. If he had, the argument would be different.


 
I'm talking about any scientist in a related field who has studied the issue, not just one particular scientist. 



> Second, I study depression. None of the scientists you refer to that I have seen study climate.


 
I'm sorry, I thought that you said, "*My primary focus in my postdoctoral work is on developing drugs for addiction and recovery*, they also have potential applications in depression, and I keep a hand in the literature."

Keeping "a hand in the literature" of depression means that you study it? Or does reading peer reviewed articles with a molecular neuroscientist educational foundation mean that you study it? That sounds similar to a, say, astrophysist who keeps a hand in peer reviewed articles regarding climate issues.

In the past, I've actually listed a number of scientists who study the issue who disagree with the anthopogenic global warming theory. These would include environmental scientists, climatologists, meteorologists, physists, etc. 

Take a look at the "Global Warming Petition Project". One of the qualifications of signer is: 



> All of the listed signers have formal educations in fields of specialization that suitably qualify them to evaluate the research data related to the petition statement. Many of the signers currently work in climatological, meteorological, atmospheric, environmental, geophysical, astronomical, and biological fields directly involved in the climate change controversy.


 
The petition has been signed by over 31,000 scientists.

In an open letter to the Secretary-General of the U.N. regarding the 2007 IPCC report, they stated:



> In particular, it is not established that it is possible to significantly alter global climate through cuts in human greenhouse gas emissions.


 
And is signed by such people as *Timothy F. Ball, Ph.D.*, environmental consultant, former climatology professor, University of Winnipeg, *Reid A. Bryson, Ph.D., D.Sc., D.Engr.*, UNE P. Global 500 Laureate; Senior Scientist, Center for Climatic Research; Emeritus Professor of Meteorology, of Geography, and of Environmental Studies, University of Wisconsin, *Ian D. Clark, Ph.D.*, Professor, isotope hydrogeology and paleoclimatology, Dept. of Earth Sciences, University of Ottawa.

All environmental scientists.



> Third, what I said was that unless you spend the time and effort to master the literature of the field, then you cannot possibly know enough to challenge the findings of those who do. If you do put in the time, years of time, then obviously you become so qualified - titles aren't magic, it's the knowledge and expertise that matters. TANSTAAFL - you have to put in the effort.


 
And I've put forth those people and you have roundly rejected them because they did not fit the particular field that you thought was relevant to the study of the climate.



> Fourth, depression and climate change are fundamentally different types of problems to study. In the case of depression, individual experiences and the experiences of lay people are of importance, since it is a disease of the mind.
> In the case of climate change, individual experiences are meaningless, since it is a global phenomenon. Thus, between the two, when debating existence vs. nonexistence, inexpert but experiential opinions matter more for depression.


 
If it is a disease (any deviation from or interruption of the normal structure or function of any body part, organ, or system that is manifested by a characteristic set of symptoms and signs and whose etiology, pathology, and prognosis may be known or unknown), then there is a physical component that should account for it, and therefore an objective measure of diagnosis should be available. Now certainly, we may not have all of the diagnostic tools to determine the physical manifestation of a particular disease, and can only understand it's symptomology. But that goes to Lucky's position regarding proof of such a condition. 

Unless you are merely speaking of the emotional aspect, to which you would have no qualifications to justify your expertise (as you study physical structures, other then your own subjective experiences, ie., I know it exists because I have felt that way before, or seen others who have. 



> Lastly, I never said anyone should take my word for it. Anyone is free to challenge my arguments or data with anything of their own at any time. I never even brought up my qualifications until Lucky gambled that I had no expertise and thus would shut my argument down. That gamble failed.


 
I'll grant that it essentially was a pissing match. What I am trying to get across is your apparent, at least by the initial wording I quoted above, you said that you did not study depression, but susequently, that we should refute your because they are predicated on accurate information based on your own research. And that flys in the face of statments made by you regarding scientist disagreement with the anthropogenic global warming theory. 

Anyways, for reals this time (my darn need to always want the last word), I am going to bow out of this tangent, as it isn't doing anything to understand the OP.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Tez3 said:


> I think that 'disorders' are catergorised differently from 'illnesses'.


 
According to the British Journal of Psychiatry:



> The most contentious issue is whether disease, illness or disorder (like the World Health Organization, I regard these terms as roughly synonymous) are scientific or _biomedical_ terms, or whether they are _socio-political_ terms which necessarily involve a value judgement.


 


> As I've said before your 'condition/disorder' wouldn't exist if you were English lol, we like our eccentricities.


 
Would be nice.



> There is a difference between post natal depression which is an illness and OCD which is a condition/disorder. As a very rough guide look at who's treating the patient, (it is a rough guide though) a pyschiatrist treats the illnesses and the psychologist treats the conditions.


 
Doing a quick Google search, it seems that the experts use the term interchangably.  In fact, Depression, as classified by the WHO, is a mental disorder:



> Depression is a common mental disorder that presents with depressed mood, loss of interest or pleasure, feelings of guilt or low self-worth, disturbed sleep or appetite, low energy, and poor concentration.


 
This is the WHO's definition of a mental disorder, to include things that, as you would have defined it, as illnesses:



> Mental disorders comprise a broad range of problems, with different symptoms. However, they are generally characterized by some combination of abnormal thoughts, emotions, behaviour and relationships with others. Examples are schizophrenia, depression, mental retardation and disorders due to drug abuse. Most of these disorders can be successfully treated.
> http://www.who.int/topics/mental_disorders/en/


 


> My point though was that mental illnesses are more common than people who don't believe in mental illnesses think. One thing people might like to consider is the horror of Alzheimers, is that just a weakness? Do we shout, pull yourself together man at someone with it? It's a very real illness and while you can say it's not a 'mental' illness as such it's something that affects the brain as other condtions can such as clinical depression, bi polar etc do.


 
The difference, I think, is that you can physically test for Alzheimer's Disease.  Yeah, the person has to be dead in order to do so, but at least you can point to some physical causation.  I don't know if you can do so for Depression.  I would think that you can, and therefore it is perfectly logical to call it a disease or illness.


----------



## Tez3

5-0 Kenpo said:


> According to the British Journal of Psychiatry:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Would be nice.
> 
> 
> 
> Doing a quick Google search, it seems that the experts use the term interchangably. In fact, Depression, as classified by the WHO, is a mental disorder:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the WHO's definition of a mental disorder, to include things that, as you would have defined it, as illnesses:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The difference, I think, is that you can physically test for Alzheimer's Disease. Yeah, the person has to be dead in order to do so, but at least you can point to some physical causation. I don't know if you can do so for Depression. I would think that you can, and therefore it is perfectly logical to call it a disease or illness.


 

I would answer and back you up but Luckyboxers has put me on ignore because I argued with him but I think your posts show a huge amount of knowledge and are well presented.

I was chatting with my pysch nurse mate and he told me how they categorise the condition/illness thing which is what I posted as a rough guide. For others though, I repeat it's a _rough_ guide as every patient is different, he did say though that clinical depression as opposed to reactive depression is different, clinical being to do with the chemicals in the brain lacking or too much or altered (?) Def your subject not mine! 
Sadly at the moment they are doing a lot of work with patients with PTSD, though I'd probably better not mention it as that too I expect is considered by some to be just a bad mood thing.

The thing as well with the clinical depression he says is that it can affect someone who is perfectly happy, has a good home life, no mood swings, good job etc and no reason to be low or down yet they can get terribly depressed. Stephen Fry did a very good documentary about his depression, he refuted that it's merely a bad mood or feeling sad, he said it's very much like a physical illness in that you actually feel in in your body. Winston Churchill had the same, he called it 'Black Dog' and he was of a generation and was the type of personality that wouldn't have stood for weakness of character or softness. It certainly seems that if he could have got rid of it or 'snapped out' of it he would have done, he didn't 'enjoy' having it!
http://www.bipolar-lives.com/winston-churchill-and-manic-depression.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jul/21/mentalhealth.broadcasting

Stephen Fry is also on Youtube explaining how it feels to have manic depression.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Unlike LuckyBoxer, I do happen to think that these are real illnesses.  

I just happen to think that there is a tendency to overdiagnose these illnesses.


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## Blade96

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Unlike LuckyBoxer, I do happen to think that these are real illnesses.
> 
> I just happen to think that there is a tendency to overdiagnose these illnesses.



  I also agree with both your sentences and i say something about your your second sentence. I been to social workers, psychiatrists and psychologists and councelors as well over the years; the latter 3 kinds imo have a huge tendency to want to slap a label on you.


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## Flea

Blade96 said:


> I also agree with both your sentences and i say something about your your second sentence. I been to social workers, psychiatrists and psychologists and councelors as well over the years; the latter 3 kinds imo have a huge tendency to want to slap a label on you.



Insurance companies have a lot to do with that.  Doctors and especially psychiatrists are expected to cough up a diagnosis on the first appointment or the companies (at least in the US) won't cover anything.


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## Carol

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Unlike LuckyBoxer, I do happen to think that these are real illnesses.
> 
> I just happen to think that there is a tendency to overdiagnose these illnesses.



That could be.  What do you think the reason is for that?

I don't think it is for the sustainability of the profession.  Psychiatry is one of the lower paying medical specialties, yet psychiatrists and their fellow clinicians seem to struggle with a very heavy case load.  My sister is a LICSW and she would much rather have fewer cases, not more.


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## Carol

Flea said:


> Insurance companies have a lot to do with that.  Doctors and especially psychiatrists are expected to cough up a diagnosis on the first appointment or the companies (at least in the US) won't cover anything.



Flea, do you think its insurance?  Or do you think its liability?  

For example...someone has borderline symptoms of clinical depression, but is not diagnosed with a depressive disorder, or treated be it with counseling or medication.

3 months later they start hurting themselves, or even make an attempt on their life.  Would their loved ones sue?  ("They came to you for treatment, but you said they weren't depressed")


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Carol said:


> That could be. What do you think the reason is for that?
> 
> I don't think it is for the sustainability of the profession. Psychiatry is one of the lower paying medical specialties, yet psychiatrists and their fellow clinicians seem to struggle with a very heavy case load. My sister is a LICSW and she would much rather have fewer cases, not more.


 
Do you want the conspiracy theory answer or something more nominal.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





My nominal answer would be that we have succumbed to the idea in this country that nothing is really our fault.  You can't control your weight, it's because you are genetically predisposed to being overweight.  Not happy, don't worry, it's an illness, but good news, we can control it with drugs.  Kids won't sit down and you can't control them, it's not your fault, they have ADHD.  And guess what, we have drugs for that, too.  

We've become a nation of wimps who want quick and easy answers to our problems, rather then facing the hard truths.  Where else would this be so much more prevelant then in our own egos.  

My conspiracy theory answer.  For a full and complete view, read Aldous Huxley's "A Brave New World".  It is in order to control our behaviour and alter our attitudes.  It is a medically indused sedative so that we can't see what's going on in the world and to accept whatever "they" want to do to us.


----------



## Carol

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Do you want the conspiracy theory answer or something more nominal.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My nominal answer would be that we have succumbed to the idea in this country that nothing is really our fault.  You can't control your weight, it's because you are genetically predisposed to being overweight.  Not happy, don't worry, it's an illness, but good news, we can control it with drugs.  Kids won't sit down and you can't control them, it's not your fault, they have ADHD.  And guess what, we have drugs for that, too.
> 
> We've become a nation of wimps who want quick and easy answers to our problems, rather then facing the hard truths.  Where else would this be so much more prevelant then in our own egos.



I like the conspiracy theory 

But realistically meds are generally not the entire answer, yes?  Psychiatric drugs aren't like taking an advil....take two and you'll feel better in a half hour.   Flea is more of an expert on this but its generally not meds alone that results in a patient getting better, it is meds plus counseling (be it from a doc, a shrink a social worker...), where the patient can learn better coping skills, how to build (or rebuild) a support structure, how to stomach (sometimes quite literally) the side effects of the meds while they are building up to a therapeutic level in the bloodstream.  Whether it is or isn't a person's fault that they are sick seems irrelevant, because regardless of how the patient got sick, the patient must take the responsibility to do get better, and have the strength and the stick-to-it-ness to gut out a long journey.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Carol said:


> I like the conspiracy theory
> 
> But realistically meds are generally not the entire answer, yes? Psychiatric drugs aren't like taking an advil....take two and you'll feel better in a half hour. Flea is more of an expert on this but its generally not meds alone that results in a patient getting better, it is meds plus counseling (be it from a doc, a shrink a social worker...), where the patient can learn better coping skills, how to build (or rebuild) a support structure, how to stomach (sometimes quite literally) the side effects of the meds while they are building up to a therapeutic level in the bloodstream. Whether it is or isn't a person's fault that they are sick seems irrelevant, because regardless of how the patient got sick, the patient must take the responsibility to do get better, and have the strength and the stick-to-it-ness to gut out a long journey.


 
But you are referring to the truly sick.  And I could not contain my answer to just those taking medication, but to those diagnosed with "mental illness".  

As I showed earlier, according to one classification of my behavior, I have a mental illness.  Therefore, I am no longer responsible for, oh, not having friends because I tend to be cold and aloof, for instance.  I think with the generally weak egos that we have in this country it is a conveinent escape from responsibility for their lack of fulfillment.


----------



## Carol

5-0 Kenpo said:


> But you are referring to the truly sick.  And I could not contain my answer to just those taking medication, but to those diagnosed with "mental illness".
> 
> As I showed earlier, according to one classification of my behavior, I have a mental illness.  Therefore, I am no longer responsible for, oh, not having friends because I tend to be cold and aloof, for instance.  I think with the generally weak egos that we have in this country it is a conveinent escape from responsibility for their lack of fulfillment.



The classification contains necessary elements, but is not sufficient.  I'd need my sister's help or someone more knowledgeable than me to offer a better explanation but a diagnosis is more than just matching up symptoms, it is if the symptoms affect one's ability to function. 

I'm afraid to leave my house.  Am I agoraphobic?  No, just not looking forward to trekking through all the snow and ice on the ground.  It does not affect my ability to function.

A similar thing could be said about people with back pain.  Just give 'em some vicodin.  Don't make them lose weight or improve their diet.  Pop some pills and its all OK.  But I don't ever hear the specialty of orthopedics, or the realm of physical health get dismissed or denigrated simply because some folks may use back pain to stay off their feet or get narcotic pain relievers.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo

Carol said:


> The classification contains necessary elements, but is not sufficient. I'd need my sister's help or someone more knowledgeable than me to offer a better explanation but a diagnosis is more than just matching up symptoms, it is if the symptoms affect one's ability to function.


 
I'm no expert either.  However, the only way that I could perhaps give you a real understanding of why I use myself as an example would be long, drawn out, and probably really, really boring to post online.  But if you look at the symptoms for the one I used, is specifically states that there is no dominant symptom, nor is it consistent.  Seems just a bit too vague and open-ended for me to support.



> I'm afraid to leave my house. Am I agoraphobic? No, just not looking forward to trekking through all the snow and ice on the ground. It does not affect my ability to function.


 
Just as a case in point, I wouldn't say that my, proclivities, prevent me from functioning, but it has significantly affected my life.  This mostly occurred during childhood, but some of the effects continue even now.

So am I crazy?  Maybe



> A similar thing could be said about people with back pain. Just give 'em some vicodin. Don't make them lose weight or improve their diet. Pop some pills and its all OK. But I don't ever hear the specialty of orthopedics, or the realm of physical health get dismissed or denigrated simply because some folks may use back pain to stay off their feet or get narcotic pain relievers.


 
I would offer that maybe the resentment of such issues is that we might be overexposed to hearing how everyone seems to have a mental illness.  Or perhaps that there are huge amounts of people that use it as a crutch.  Or perhaps that such diagnosises have been foisted upon them and most people believe that they are perfectly fine.

I think, primarily though, that there is an actual physical component to such things as back pain, or being overweight.  We can see it, and often, we can touch it.  With mental illnesses it is difficult to do so.  Not only that, but we have also seen people overcome "mental illnesses" with no treatment whatsoever, leading many people to believe that some or all of those particular illnesses don't exist.

It's just as I related to Alzheimer's Disease.  People know that it exists because there is a physical manifestation of it, even though it can only be detected after death.  Can we say the same about Depression.


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> Medication has not been proven to do anything better for people arbitrarily diagnosed with depression...







What, did you think we were just making this stuff up?  That's one random study I found on PubMed in 60 seconds.  Do you think we would spend millions testing something that had never been shown to work?



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Get off your high horse, and actually get back to reality. Just because you want  something to be a certain way  does not mean it is.



Well, if nothing else it's pretty entertaining to be told by someone to "get back to reality" instead of scientifically studying a disease.  You think this is all my desire and my will?  Competing opinions with no opinion more valid than the other?  This is scientific fact my friend, studied by hundreds of thousands of scientific professionals from people like myself to clinicians and psychologists.  I'm not the one in need of some reality.


----------



## ballen0351

Went to my Docs yesterday for a chest cold that wont go away.  Did some test found out it was pneumonia.  We were talking about what medicine he was going to prescribe for me and we got to the topic about the overuse of Antibiotics in this country.  My doc said most people go to the Docs and they expect the doc to find something wrong with them even if there is not.  They expect a prescription.  He said many Docs are to the point they are prescribing meds to people that dont need it just so they shut up and go home.
So I asked him about this topic and mental illness diagnosis. He said pretty much the same applies.  People are not satisfied until you tell them they have a problem and if you say they are fine people get mad and ask to see another doc or they keep making appointments until they are told something.  He said everybody no matter who you can show symptoms of something the easy one is depression, and Bi-polar.  He said lots of people just get told they have problems because thats what they want to hear.


----------



## Blade96

ballen0351 said:


> Went to my Docs yesterday for a chest cold that wont go away.  Did some test found out it was pneumonia. .



That sucks, Ballen, I hope you feel better soon! 

I had that when i was a teenager.


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## ballen0351

Empty Hands said:


> What, did you think we were just making this stuff up? That's one random study I found on PubMed in 60 seconds. Do you think we would spend millions testing something that had never been shown to work?
> .


 
I dont think the meds really treat the problems I they mask the symptoms and as soon as you stop taking the pills your back to where you started or even worse.  Medications may be a start but if you dont fix the cause of the issue your just going to have bigger problems later


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## ballen0351

Blade96 said:


> That sucks, Ballen, I hope you feel better soon!
> 
> I had that when i was a teenager.


 Thanks it sucks but they say with the meds I should feel better in 2 or 3 days


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## Empty Hands

ballen0351 said:


> I dont think the meds really treat the problems I they mask the symptoms and as soon as you stop taking the pills your back to where you started or even worse.  Medications may be a start but if you dont fix the cause of the issue your just going to have bigger problems later



This assumes that clinical depression is due to a state of mind, a mental conflict, trauma that happened to you, or some similar mental condition amenable to cognitive behavioral therapy.  It also assumes that once you get your mind in the right order, you won't get depression again.

These assumptions are false.

Environment contributes, but the disease is biological in basis.


----------



## Tez3

Psychiatry isn't a big thing here, there's no insurance issues either. It's quite hard to get referred to any mental health professional which is a shame. A long time ago they closed a lot of mental hospitals which was a sort of good thing, there were people in them who had been committed decades before for things like being a single mother or because the family wanted rid of them. On the other hand it does mean there is nowhere safe for mentally ill people to be kept in because they needed to be, we have very few in patient wards for mental illness now. 
I can't say there is a tendancy to over prescribe here, most people still see a stigma attached to being labelled mentally ill and won't go to a doctor with anything even vaguely 'mental'. 
Mental health charities campaign for better awareness but there is still resistance to accepting that people can have problems and still function. People keep their depressions etc to themselves, it may mean that we have more suicides than we need to because people won't go for help, it's not that they don't believe depression etc is a mental illness more that they are ashamed of it.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> What, did you think we were just making this stuff up? That's one random study I found on PubMed in 60 seconds. Do you think we would spend millions testing something that had never been shown to work?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if nothing else it's pretty entertaining to be told by someone to "get back to reality" instead of scientifically studying a disease. You think this is all my desire and my will? Competing opinions with no opinion more valid than the other? This is scientific fact my friend, studied by hundreds of thousands of scientific professionals from people like myself to clinicians and psychologists. I'm not the one in need of some reality.


 
You have a link for that so I can go look?
Because that graph is telling me nothing, it simply says response time... you can put chemicals in the body and get a response time to a reaction versus different chemicals and a placebo, a reaction is proof of nothing. I will be happy to go look at the full information and make a decision one way or the other, like I said though I have never shown, or had anyone able to show me irrefutable proof. Graphs are pretty easy usually to tear apart, because they are usually showing only what they want to show, not the full picture. But ill look..

scientific fact is irrefutable proof. Like I said show me that and I will agree. until then your showing bits and pieces and claiming its the holy grail.. Not so much...
I dont think it has anything to do with your will. I think it has to do with a disturbing trend in our society to make hypthesis about things, important things, and then run with them like maniacs claiming its scientific fact, only to be proven to be nonsense shortly after.... Global warming, and Vaccines causing autism anyone?


----------



## Empty Hands

LuckyKBoxer said:


> You have a link for that so I can go look?



LINK



LuckyKBoxer said:


> Because that graph is telling me nothing, it simply says response time... you can put chemicals in the body and get a response time to a reaction versus different chemicals and a placebo, a reaction is proof of nothing.



What "reaction" do you think we are talking about here?  Your criticism makes no sense.  Also, the graph is telling you that two classes of antidepressants improve CGI (a measure of depression) scores over placebo over the course of a 2  month therapy period.  This is _exactly _the evidence you say does not exist.



LuckyKBoxer said:


> scientific fact is irrefutable proof.



No it is not.  "Irrefutable proof" does not exist, and scientists never speak in those terms.  Your mindset is nonscientific.  You've basically said right out that no evidence will ever convince you.  That's fine as far as it goes, but then don't go around claiming that evidence does not exist.  It does.  There are thousands of papers, millions of man-hours of research, the experiences of millions of people - all of that stacked against your opinion, which you yourself admit is ignorant.

How can you defend that?


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Unlike LuckyBoxer, I do happen to think that these are real illnesses.
> 
> I just happen to think that there is a tendency to overdiagnose these illnesses.


 

Just to clarify, I believe there are mental illnesses, diseases, and so on.
Blade just happened to throw Depression out there, which is one I simply dont buy into.
I believe that a person can become traumatized, or over emotional and  go into a depression, but I do not believe that that medication is the answer. I believe that medication is sometimes used and a patient gets better, but I believe they are getting better in spite of the medication. Patients are experimented on with an ever changing barrage of drugs to "treat" depression, and other illnesses but im referring to depression, and the majority of the time those medications fail. maybe not in a week, or a month, but they fail. They mess with the bodies ability to produce chemicals used to improve a person, and then require that person to be dependant on the medications. My thought is the medications are messing up that person more then not having them. That while medications can produce an effect in the body at a given point in time, that the majority of the time those medications are going to be too much, or too little and cause an inbalance which will lead to more problems. I see no positives about giving a patient with depression medication, as opposed to working on other options.. teaching them how to be self sufficient, independant, and any other skills they are lacking in. It seems to me most people with depression have some major problems going on.. the vast majority.. They never learned the skills to live.. it seems anyone claims they are fighting depression they have stories of abuse, neglect, traumatic experiences, ignorance, the list can go on and on. 
The real questions would be are those cause or effect?
I think they are the cause of depression... who wouldnt be upset and depressed after some of that.

Those that believe medication is the answer seem to believe more often then not that those are an effect of depression, that the depression is the culprit, and it came first..
I dont buy that.

So what it comes down to me is have people diagnosed with depression gotten better without drugs? Yes.
Have people diagnosed with severe depression ever gotten better without drugs? yes.
so is it a misdiagnosis? or is it possible to beat depression without drugs? I believe the later is true.

I also believe that some of the most severe cases where people are simply diagnosed with depression are not quite true, I think those people have other issues as well. Somebody earlier mentioned hallucinations... that doesn't seem to be a symptom of depression to me but something else going on.

Like I said I believe that serious problems can happen in the brain. I believe there are mental illnesses, or conditions, or issues, however you migght want to term them.
I simply believe depression is a state of mind that a person will change on their own, sometimes needing a support system to lean on, and sometimes with their own skillsets.
But medication being irregardless of the matter, and being tossed in simply because it causes some reaction. Its a test for them, they are constantly changing the drugs and changing their minds.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer

Empty Hands said:


> LINK
> 
> 
> 
> What "reaction" do you think we are talking about here? Your criticism makes no sense. Also, the graph is telling you that two classes of antidepressants improve CGI (a measure of depression) scores over placebo over the course of a 2 month therapy period. This is _exactly _the evidence you say does not exist.
> 
> 
> 
> No it is not. "Irrefutable proof" does not exist, and scientists never speak in those terms. Your mindset is nonscientific. You've basically said right out that no evidence will ever convince you. That's fine as far as it goes, but then don't go around claiming that evidence does not exist. It does. There are thousands of papers, millions of man-hours of research, the experiences of millions of people - all of that stacked against your opinion, which you yourself admit is ignorant.
> 
> How can you defend that?
> 
> Like I said show me that and I will agree. until then your showing bits and pieces and claiming its the holy grail.. Not so much...
> I dont think it has anything to do with your will. I think it has to do with a disturbing trend in our society to make hypthesis about things, important things, and then run with them like maniacs claiming its scientific fact, only to be proven to be nonsense shortly after.... Global warming, and Vaccines causing autism anyone?


[/quote]

unfortunately the site wont let me look at all the articles without joining.
my immediate questions are how were patients tested? Was any methods other then giving a placebo used. my point here being if you put people in a room give them medication and do nothing to change how they are living which is causing them depression then what do you expect to change? 
Also what else was done over the two month period, how where the patients monitored, there ar ealot of questions I would have to have answered, which I am sure the full information for the tests would show one way or the other.
You quick pull is not evidence of anything yet, I have not been able to read it to make a decision, a graph is easy to manipulate to show what you want it to show, if you dont know that your either ignorant, a liar, or overly optimistic..

um no the evidence that shows that depression is only able to be treated with medication does not exist. Thats what I have asked for over and over. I never said that introducing chemicals into the human body wont give a reaction.
It obviously does. I simply said that I dont believe it is the answer to depression, and there is no study that says it is either, at least not that I have seen, and this one single graph you show may or may not, but I dont have access to all the data to make that decision, and I am sure as hell not taking your word for anything.

I admitted I am ignorant, but you apparantly are as well. You just refuse to admit it. All the man hours of research,a dn all the other nonsense you said still doesn't mean anything, because none of it will do anything to prove your point. The fact is the money is there to try to make this a "real" illness, the money is there to come up with a medication for people to take that they will be able to live with. The fact is there is no profit in curing anything, so all that research you have there, its designed to find something for people to live with.. and they still dont have it right. Thats why people are coming on and off meds all the time, changing meds, having negative reactions to meds, killing themselves on meds. etc. Thats not a success... unless of course you believe the public school systems are a success as well.... all kidding aside though I wouldnt mind reading the whole research project and see if it answers my questions... my suspicion is it wont. my suspicion is that they would not do the type of study necessary because if it proved them wrong they are out billions of dollars.


----------



## ballen0351

Empty Hands said:


> This assumes that clinical depression is due to a state of mind, a mental conflict, trauma that happened to you, or some similar mental condition amenable to cognitive behavioral therapy. It also assumes that once you get your mind in the right order, you won't get depression again.
> 
> These assumptions are false.
> 
> Environment contributes, but the disease is biological in basis.


 
Meds are not the answer to every problem.  It may be for you since thats your field so it benefits you if everyone gets on meds but there are many other ways to treat mental illness.


----------



## Blade96

ballen0351 said:


> Thanks it sucks but they say with the meds I should feel better in 2 or 3 days



Thats good! 

and for luckykboxer, you said yes many people with depression have had some kind of trauma in their lives. Like myself, I'll admit it. But what of those who develop depression and have a great life and admit themselves there's no logical explanation for why they became depressed?

and i agree with ballen saying that some meds are not really a cure as such....like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder - but they do help the person manage it better.


----------



## Steve

ballen0351 said:


> Meds are not the answer to every problem.


This is very true!  But it's one thing to say that meds aren't the answer to every problem and quite another to suggest that meds aren't the answer to ANY problem.

Do you guys who don't believe in clinical depression think that PTSD is real or made up?  Do some soldiers have PTSD or is this a scam?


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## Empty Hands

stevebjj said:


> This is very true!  But it's one thing to say that meds aren't the answer to every problem and quite another to suggest that meds aren't the answer to ANY problem.



This, this, a thousand times this.



stevebjj said:


> Do you guys who don't believe in clinical depression think that PTSD is real or made up?  Do some soldiers have PTSD or is this a scam?



A Real Man would gut 50 babies with a knife that day, and then sleep soundly that night knowing that he had served Truth and Justice.  The rest of those wimps are just weak.

Seriously though, excellent question.  It seems like some diseases are "real" and others are "fake", and what seems to set them apart is how sympathetic the victim is.  Are they "at fault" for their disease, are they a deserving target for sympathy, etc.  As if it matters even if it was somehow their fault!  They still need treatment.


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## ballen0351

stevebjj said:


> This is very true! But it's one thing to say that meds aren't the answer to every problem and quite another to suggest that meds aren't the answer to ANY problem.
> 
> Do you guys who don't believe in clinical depression think that PTSD is real or made up? Do some soldiers have PTSD or is this a scam?


I didnt say meds are not needed they are just not needed for everything. That seems to be the first thing brought up for any problem "there is a pill for that let me write you a perscription."

I dont believe PTSD is as wide spread as they claim. They said I had it and I dont so how many other "cases" are false?


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## Archangel M

I have heard some opinions saying that a chunk of PTSD cases can possibly be a "self fulfilling prophesy" of sorts. Media and popular sources push the idea that every "normal" person experiences PTSD after a violent event and that you are some sort of psychopath if you don't get all "****ed up" over what you did or saw.

I have read (and met) a number of soldiers and cops who have "seen the elephant" and said that besides the normal adrenalin "rush" followed by rubber legs, that they didn't really feel all that "bad" over what they did. It was "him or me and it sure as hell wasn't gonna be me" sort of thing.

Similarly there is a belief amongst LE/Mil trainers that the "I get shot so I lay down and die" mentality propagated by movies, TV , etc. resulted in some soldiers/cops doing just that when their wounds may in fact had been survivable. There appears to be a significant psychological influence on how quickly and how severe shock can debilitate an individual.


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## Carol

ballen0351 said:


> Meds are not the answer to every problem.  It may be for you since thats your field so it benefits you if everyone gets on meds but there are many other ways to treat mental illness.



Meds plus counseling are often the most effective solution.

However, the course of treatment most patients choose is defined by their health insurance plan.  Under U.S. law it is legal to not have parity between physical health and mental health realms, so if the plan says 12 visits a year with a counselor and those 12 visits are used up in 8 weeks...then chances are those 12 visits will be all the counseling the patient receives, the rest is managed through pharmacology.  I don't see changing as taxpayer dollars underwrite more and more health care costs.

There are also people who respond to counseling better than meds, there are people who respond to meds better than counseling, there are people (esp. in prisons and other controlled environments) whose reactions to psychiatric meds provoked them to develop coping skills on their own....the human brain is a highly complex organ.  The goal of treatment isn't to fill the world with people that have some mentally ill badge of honor or even to push prescription drugs.  It is to get people who are not functioning well back to functioning at their baseline, which can be an exceedingly complex process.


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## ballen0351

Carol said:


> Meds plus counseling are often the most effective solution.
> 
> However, the course of treatment most patients choose is defined by their health insurance plan. Under U.S. law it is legal to not have parity between physical health and mental health realms, so if the plan says 12 visits a year with a counselor and those 12 visits are used up in 8 weeks...then chances are those 12 visits will be all the counseling the patient receives, the rest is managed through pharmacology. I don't see changing as taxpayer dollars underwrite more and more health care costs.
> .


 Well if you feel you still need to see someone after your 12 visits then turn off your cell phone and cable eat cheaper food and pay to go yourself.  If I had an issue I needed fixed I would take care of it.  If my insurance ran out then Id pay myself.


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## Carol

Perhaps Obamacare doesn't go far enough with enforcement.  We could new branch of government to ensure such compliance.  It is possible to build out the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services much like the DOJ built out DHS.  Every hospital would have a federal Health Compliance Officer that would investigate each patient and their medical record upon entry to determine 

(1) if the patient "at fault" for their health problem 

(2) whether the government deemed the patient was consuming their health insurance in the proper manner for the treatment. 

(3) whether the government deemed the patient was surrendering a proper amount of private property for the treatment.

This would be expensive, of course, so it would be paid for by withoulding an additional 15% of payroll taxes.  These taxes, of course, can be refunded with proper compliance.

After the patient completes his exam with the Health Compliance Officer, the results will be sent back to the Department of Health and Human Services for review, and the analysis will be send to the patient.  The state will mail a docket to the patient, the patient is to save these dockets and file with his/her year end tax return and receive a refund through the IRS.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Empty Hands said:


> Seriously though, excellent question. It seems like some diseases are "real" and others are "fake", and what seems to set them apart is how sympathetic the victim is. Are they "at fault" for their disease, are they a deserving target for sympathy, etc. As if it matters even if it was somehow their fault! They still need treatment.


 
I don't think that's it.

What I think it may come down to is a person's familiarity with the trauma.

For instance, how many of us have gotten a divorce or been dumped by a man / woman that we deeply cared for?  And we moved on with no ill effects.  So when someone says that they suffer from clinical depression and are being treated for it, it is very easy to say that they have a weak personality.

In terms of PTSD, it is easy to see how people could see it as an actual illness due to the fact that most people do not experience that type of trauma, even if most combat personnel come back fully intact.  Because most of us have no experience in that type of situation, it is difficult for us to say how we would react to it, therefore we give the benefit of the doubt to those who suffer from PTSD.


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## Tez3

With the attitude here that we have to mental illness the military is having to work hard to get soliders to come forward if they do have PTSD, it's less a case of people exaggerating or even faking being ill more a case of people covering it up. The main sufferers of PTSD that have been identified at the moment are those who are amputees, sometimes triple and those who have been grieviously injured. Not all I add just some. The army has a more enlightened attitude these days, they don't shoot soldiers at dawn for 'cowardice' anymore, the soldiers have been briefed on what to look for and are given 'decompression' in Cyprus before they return to the UK from Afghan. They don't go on leave for three weeks on returning so there is a settling down time with families before they are out of the army's 'control' on leave.

I've heard comparisons with the soldiers from the last war with people saying they didn't have PTSD then so why now. One thing that American troops in the last war did was have to spend a long time travelling home, after leaving the battlefields of Europe the American troops had to board ships to return home, this gave them time to reflect, to talk and to generally 'heal' before going back into a normal life. By contrast the troops in Vietnam could be in the middle of a firefight in the morning and back home in the evening almost. 

Our troops are all back from leave and at work next week, we are geared up for dealing with more fights, more incidents with alcohol etc. We'll see though. I wouldn't have wanted to cope with what some of these young lads have gone through out there and I believe it's really unfair to make judgements about PTSD in this instance. We have a dog handler who was diagnosed with it, he was in the army's Pioneer Corps and in Bosnia they had to dig up the mass graves of men, women and children massacred there for identification and evidence then they reburied them properly. They also had to deal with other atrocities inflicted on the civilian population. he doesn't consider himself ill but finds the nightmares and flashbacks hard to deal with. I also know some soldiers who were in the Falklands in the ships and landing craft that were bombed and burning who have similiar experiences.

There is a difference too between _reactive_ depression which is a normal thing that would happen when losing a partner for example through death or unwanted divorce, or the loss of a child, that sort of experience and the _clinical_ depression that descends without any life changing activity to account for it. The two are different, reactive depression will pass as the person grieves then gets themselves together, the clinical depression rarely passes without treatment or only does so when the chemical inbalances in the brain are addressed either naturally after a long time or with drugs.


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## billc

I am not trying to diminish the psychological effects of combat or trying to diminish the conversation here but think about this.  Hollywood is a mass marketer of ideas.  Every movie and television show you see now shows veterans of the U.S. military as either victims, or crazies or savages.  Toby Macguire was recently in a movie, I didn't see it but I did see the trailer, and he comes home from the war and he acts like frankenstein.  In the Valley of Elah, Redacted, The hurt locker, the television show Trueblood (the iraq war vet. on the show has psychological problems) and just about every movie from hollywood depicting soldiers shows them as at best troubled, or at worst on the verge of out of control violence.  These messages seep into a culture.  
On the show True Blood, the vet isn't even a main character but they felt the need to show him as troubled.  
Here is something to think about.  When was the last movie or television show that showed millitary vets in a truly positive light?  Some might say Taking Chance, the HBO movie.  It was a good film, but the whole movie is about the death of a soldier, and there is a scene on the airplane where Kevin bacon is reading a magazine or paper with an anti-war headline.  That was not a coincidence.  Just some thoughts.


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## granfire

billcihak said:


> I am not trying to diminish the psychological effects of combat or trying to diminish the conversation here but think about this.  Hollywood is a mass marketer of ideas.  Every movie and television show you see now shows veterans of the U.S. military as either victims, or crazies or savages.  Toby Macguire was recently in a movie, I didn't see it but I did see the trailer, and he comes home from the war and he acts like frankenstein.  In the Valley of Elah, Redacted, The hurt locker, the television show Trueblood (the iraq war vet. on the show has psychological problems) and just about every movie from hollywood depicting soldiers shows them as at best troubled, or at worst on the verge of out of control violence.  These messages seep into a culture.
> On the show True Blood, the vet isn't even a main character but they felt the need to show him as troubled.
> Here is something to think about.  When was the last movie or television show that showed millitary vets in a truly positive light?  Some might say Taking Chance, the HBO movie.  It was a good film, but the whole movie is about the death of a soldier, and there is a scene on the airplane where Kevin bacon is reading a magazine or paper with an anti-war headline.  That was not a coincidence.  Just some thoughts.



And considering the boring story it would make if the war vet came home tending his daisies....

PTSD has been known for a long time, arguably back in the bronze age. Just in previous conflicts the fellows were 'shell shocked'


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## Tez3

billcihak said:


> I am not trying to diminish the psychological effects of combat or trying to diminish the conversation here but think about this. Hollywood is a mass marketer of ideas. Every movie and television show you see now shows veterans of the U.S. military as either victims, or crazies or savages. Toby Macguire was recently in a movie, I didn't see it but I did see the trailer, and he comes home from the war and he acts like frankenstein. In the Valley of Elah, Redacted, The hurt locker, the television show Trueblood (the iraq war vet. on the show has psychological problems) and just about every movie from hollywood depicting soldiers shows them as at best troubled, or at worst on the verge of out of control violence. These messages seep into a culture.
> On the show True Blood, the vet isn't even a main character but they felt the need to show him as troubled.
> Here is something to think about. When was the last movie or television show that showed millitary vets in a truly positive light? Some might say Taking Chance, the HBO movie. It was a good film, but the whole movie is about the death of a soldier, and there is a scene on the airplane where Kevin bacon is reading a magazine or paper with an anti-war headline. That was not a coincidence. Just some thoughts.


 
British soldiers only watch American war films as light entertainment :lol2:

The British public has issues with Hollywood films anyway as the Hollywood version of events nearly always doesn't tally with the truth so we don't take any notice of any 'message' they may have.


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## billc

Every story about a  vet granfire?  Not one could show the vet as 99 percent or more are, normal people who come home and lead normal conventional lives.  The averager vietnam vet out performed the average person who never served.  they did better and did more, the myth of the psychotic vietnam war vet was perpetrated by the media.  We are really insulting these soldiers when they come home if we let this myth continue.


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## Archangel M

granfire said:


> And considering the boring story it would make if the war vet came home tending his daisies....
> 
> PTSD has been known for a long time, arguably back in the bronze age. Just in previous conflicts the fellows were 'shell shocked'



"Shell Shock" was NOT PTSD. "Shell Shock" is an immediate reaction to combat. Not all soldiers who experience "Shell Shock" get PTSD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_stress_reaction


> Combat stress reaction is generally short-term and should not be confused with acute stress disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, or other long-term disorders attributable to combat stress, although any of these may commence as a combat stress reaction.


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## Tez3

If we have programmes about 'vets' it's nice ones like All Creatures Great and Small, vets to us are the animal doctors lol! We have old or ex servicemen and womem, we don't call them vets, they might go round gelding like the vets do.


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## granfire

Archangel M said:


> "Shell Shock" was NOT PTSD. "Shell Shock" is an immediate reaction to combat. Not all soldiers who experience "Shell Shock" get PTSD.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combat_stress_reaction



Listen, I am not arguing semantics here. But it is ridiculous to believe that it is a new phenomenon.


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> If we have programmes about 'vets' it's nice ones like All Creatures Great and Small, vets to us are the animal doctors lol! We have old or ex servicemen and womem, we don't call them vets, they might go round gelding like the vets do.



rofl. Yes, the abbreviation mania.


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## billc

Point taken, from this point forward, Veterans.  Will this translate okay to our friends across the pond.


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## Archangel M

It's not "semantics", it's definitions.


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## Tez3

billcihak said:


> Point taken, from this point forward, Veterans. Will this translate okay to our friends across the pond.


 
Probably best, our vets get quite shirty if upset lol. those nutcrackers are very painful.


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## billc

Is "nutcracker" a head butt or something else?


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## Tez3

billcihak said:


> Is "nutcracker" a head butt or something else?


 
No, and you are going to wish you hadn't asked....it's the tool that vets use to crush and remove an animal's testicles, named after the thingy you use to crack walnuts, almonds, hazel nuts. :uhyeah:


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> No, and you are going to wish you hadn't asked....it's the tool that vets use to crush and remove an animal's testicles, named after the thingy you use to crack walnuts, almonds, hazel nuts. :uhyeah:




and I think I heard all the male MT members wince and shudder right now!


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## Tez3

granfire said:


> and I think I heard all the male MT members wince and shudder right now!


 
It will serve as a reminder to keep conversations polite


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## billc

A device like that would just break on some people, not to brag or anything.  So I am not going to wince or shudder.


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## 5-0 Kenpo

Tez3 said:


> With the attitude here that we have to mental illness the military is having to work hard to get soliders to come forward if they do have PTSD, it's less a case of people exaggerating or even faking being ill more a case of people covering it up. The main sufferers of PTSD that have been identified at the moment are those who are amputees, sometimes triple and those who have been grieviously injured. Not all I add just some. The army has a more enlightened attitude these days, they don't shoot soldiers at dawn for 'cowardice' anymore, the soldiers have been briefed on what to look for and are given 'decompression' in Cyprus before they return to the UK from Afghan. They don't go on leave for three weeks on returning so there is a settling down time with families before they are out of the army's 'control' on leave.
> 
> I've heard comparisons with the soldiers from the last war with people saying they didn't have PTSD then so why now. One thing that American troops in the last war did was have to spend a long time travelling home, after leaving the battlefields of Europe the American troops had to board ships to return home, this gave them time to reflect, to talk and to generally 'heal' before going back into a normal life. By contrast the troops in Vietnam could be in the middle of a firefight in the morning and back home in the evening almost.
> 
> Our troops are all back from leave and at work next week, we are geared up for dealing with more fights, more incidents with alcohol etc. We'll see though. I wouldn't have wanted to cope with what some of these young lads have gone through out there and I believe it's really unfair to make judgements about PTSD in this instance. We have a dog handler who was diagnosed with it, he was in the army's Pioneer Corps and in Bosnia they had to dig up the mass graves of men, women and children massacred there for identification and evidence then they reburied them properly. They also had to deal with other atrocities inflicted on the civilian population. he doesn't consider himself ill but finds the nightmares and flashbacks hard to deal with. I also know some soldiers who were in the Falklands in the ships and landing craft that were bombed and burning who have similiar experiences.
> 
> There is a difference too between _reactive_ depression which is a normal thing that would happen when losing a partner for example through death or unwanted divorce, or the loss of a child, that sort of experience and the _clinical_ depression that descends without any life changing activity to account for it. The two are different, reactive depression will pass as the person grieves then gets themselves together, the clinical depression rarely passes without treatment or only does so when the chemical inbalances in the brain are addressed either naturally after a long time or with drugs.


 
Not only that, but the rotational nature of our modern services often means that one does not connect as well with the military personnel that one serves with, though this may be a lesser issue.


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## Blade96

Tez3 said:


> No, and you are going to wish you hadn't asked....it's the tool that vets use to crush and remove an animal's testicles, named after the thingy you use to crack walnuts, almonds, hazel nuts. :uhyeah:



Ewww. I just flinched


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## crushing

According to media reports, Giffords is making excellent progress with her recovery.  This is great news!


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## Carol

crushing said:


> According to media reports, Giffords is making excellent progress with her recovery.  This is great news!



:asian:  Great news indeed.  Thanks for posting that.


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