# Modern Arnis Situation/Succession  - Was "A question that needs to be answered"



## Sir_Yantok

Will someone please tell me how Jeff Delaney can now call himself "Grandmaster" of Modern Arnis?

To the best of my knowledge, and it was even stated in the press release, that Randi Schea and Jeff Delaney are the CO-SUCCESSORS of the INTERNATIONAL MODERN ARNIS FEDERATION, and nothing and nowhere near any appointment to GRANDMASTER or CO-GRANDMASTER.


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## Brian Johns

I've been in Modern Arnis for a few years and have trained with lots of good people in there. Despite what has transpired over the last few months, I still plan on attending some Arnis camps and seminars, including the one in Chicago later this month. With regard to Jeff Delaney calling himself "Grandmaster and Successor," I have the same reaction. I don't know where he came up with that. I wonder how Dr. Randi Schea feels about that. For Delaney to do that is an insult to Dr. Schea.  Should be interesting to see what happens in the next few months as the dust settles.


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## Sir_Yantok

I think that for Delaney to call himself such, is an insult to the former Grandmaster Presas. I know that there are plenty of self proclaimed grandmasters out there without the skills to back it up like Prof. Presas, but in Delaney's case this is outright outrageous. I truly believe that the cardinal principles of Modern Arnis have been have been ignored by these people. I do believe that his Children will continue his legacy, and personally I'd rather side with them than with all these dirty politics and pretensions.


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## Brian Johns

Due to the machinations and self promotion and to the exclusion of others, I'm not too crazy about Delaney. However, I have a lot of respect for the other Modern Arnis folks. I've seen their skill and they are quite good. Can't say that for Delaney. I have no comment with regard to Remy's children. I've never seen their Modern Arnis skills. It's interesting to note that Remy, to the best of my knowledge, never really spoke of his children taking over Modern Arnis after he died. It's pretty clear to me who he want to continue his legacy of Modern Arnis after his death. Unfortunately, as some have pointed out, politics are getting in the way. I cannot believe that Lori Harwood has gotten herself involved in the picture. A real mess.  As individuals, we just have to seek out the Modern Arnis instruction that we feel is best suited for ourselves. If you like Tim Hartman, go with him. If you like Delaney, stick with him. If you like somebody else, train with them.


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## Sir_Yantok

It seems that Lori Harwood is the domain owner of Modern Arnis.com, however the fact that she has donated it to the Presas Children would be interesting. Maybe some time soon we'd get to see them on the website.


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## Cthulhu

Care to respond to this sticky subject...again? 

Cthulhu


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## Keil Randor

There -used- to be a press release on the IMAF site that spelled out the succession (it's also on here somewhere...).  I was just there...can't find it.  I did find on the news section about 1 zillion referenced to Grandmaster Delany.  Very rarely Co-successor, or co-GM.

Alot of the verbage could be construed as ego stroking....

I am reminded of the Tao...
"Those who know, don't talk.
Those that talk, don't know"
​and

"He who tries to shine
dims his own light/
He who defines himself,
can't know who he really is."​

Seems like JD talks a hell of a lot on there, putting himself over. A lot of the "Look at me, I'm the -real- successor."  I have'nt seen any comments from Dr. Schea  on this (though I honestly didn't dig much).  

This "Renegade" fellow...thats Datu Tim Hartman right? He seems to say enough, then shuts up and lets the silence and his actions speak for him.  Smart fellow.


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## Keil Randor

Ok, found the post here..... 
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=94

Was added by Samurai


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## bloodwood

In the recent posting by the IMAF covering the tribute to the Professor this past weekend, it stated that the only person in attendance named in the Professor's hand picked group to lead the organization into the future was Jeff Delaney. If this was the official IMAF tribute where were the motts??? None of them show up. What's with that???


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## GouRonin

The same sort of thing happened when Ed Parker died and 11 years later it's still a mess. I agree with the guy who said go with the people you like and forget the politics.

As for the Renegade, I like him. It's not secret. He lets his work do the talking for him. He's got better things to do with his time than throw bullsh*t politics around.

It won't stop. You watch. Just do what you're doing and let the players play. Be a mover, not a player.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I'm responding to a request of my opinion.

1. There is no living Grand Master of Modern Arnis at this time. If we are lucky someday we might have someone get to that level of skill, but not at this time.

2. A lot of people have claimed this and that. What do***entation do they have? When I was promoted to my 6th and Datu I received a certificate, did they? I was also promoted at the 2000 Michigan Summer Camp in front of 80+ witnesses. Who witnessed their promotion, each other? I found out with Remy that it was never what he said behind closed doors that mattered, but what he was willing to say and do in public that counted!

3. Lori Harwood. She was one of Remy's girlfriends. She would poke her nose in where it didn't belong and cause more trouble than me. Her whole goal was to make herself the center of attention at any cost! She got promoted based on her sexual skills instead of her martial ones, which she didn't possess. Why is she siding with the Presas family? Because they don't know any better. I feel sorry for them!

4. Where are all the MOTT's? Kenny Smith is hosting a camp later this month and they will also be doing a memorial service for Remy there. Some could not travel to Philly or don't like the host.

5. The unconfirmed hand pick group of MOTT's are in the midst of an IMAF civil war (which I saw coming and contributed to my leaving the group).  They have forgotten that there is no I in team.

6. The Presas Family. I've had many long conversations with them. They are troubled with the loss of their father and need some time for the healing process to begin. My prayers are with them and Remy Sr.

7. GM Jeff "Guntang" Delaney. He is a self-center egotistical pompous ***! Just like me except he has no skills to back it up with. Like most of the Modern Arnis Black Belts JD stopped testing after he got his 1st Black Belt. He has been promoted behind closed doors for the rest of his belts(I hope he had knee pads)!      

   :nuke: :uzi:


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## GouRonin

Sounds like a hunka-hunka-burning-love guy like me would go far in the IMAF! LOL! I'm cute, loveable, good in bed, (Hey, it's true, I barely ever fall out anymore) and  the chicks dig me. 

I'm going to hell for posting this aren't I?


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## Bob Hubbard

Nah.....  Can't send our only Blue "belt" to hell....

Hmmm....

ok, I Darn you to Heck.    (Try not to steal the silverware dude)


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## bloodwood

Looks like renegade has taken off the gloves and preparing for battle. Better throw him some raw meat when you see him just to calm him down. Glad I'm on his side. Lets sit back and watch the sparks fly!!!


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## GouRonin

How did you know about the silverware? Have you been talking with the Renegade?

Speaking of the Renegade, I plan on trying to get down to Buffalo on the 24/October to meet up with Big Guy and start some training with the Renegade. Maybe I'll meet some more of you all there.


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## Bob Hubbard

<mod mode on>
I see 3 sides in this....

1 - The Presas family and Ms. Harwood
2 - The IMAF with mr. Delany
3 - The WMAA with Datu Hartman.

All parties are welcome to discuss things here in a civilized manner.  Please note, I said civilized.  If it turns into an all out flame war, I'll ban the offender so fast their heads will spin.
This is the -only- warning I will give.
</mod mode off>

Sorry to jump in hardass here, but I realize just how ugly this can get, and want to avoid 'issues'.  Keep it civil, think twice before hitting "POST" and take a couple of deep breaths.

Thank you.


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## Bob Hubbard

Gou - that was my good plastic, err silverware. Now, either you return it, or I'll have to make you wipe the floor with me when ya pop in to see Renegade.  

I'll have to make sure I'm at the school on the 24th.


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## Brian Johns

Mr. Rustaz said
"I see 3 sides in this.... 

1 - The Presas family and Ms. Harwood 
2 - The IMAF with mr. Delany 
3 - The WMAA with Datu Hartman. "

I think that the above should read as follows:

1. The Presas family and Ms. Harwood
2. Jeff Delaney
3. The WMAA with Datu Hartman
4. The 6 Motts.

There are 7 Masters of Tapi Tapi designated by the late Prof Presas. It's no secret that 6 of those MOTTs have no love for Mr. Delaney in light of his relentless self promotion. I get the impression that none of the 6 MOTTs attended the Memorial service in Philly this past weekend. The weekend of October 19-21 in Chicago should prove to be very interesting as far as Delaney is concerned.


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## Bob Hubbard

I had forgotten about them.  (I keep thinking of that Apple Juice company for some reason.)  

 I stand corrected.  

Thanks!


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## Cthulhu

Actually, Kaith, I believe it was apple _sauce_.  

This topic could get very...interesting.  Especially if we begin to hear remarks from all parties involved.  Unfortunately, I doubt anything fruitful would come of it.  It seems the battle lines have already been drawn and sides have been chosen.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard

Heh.  

Well...as long as they can behave, they are more than welcome to sign up and talk.  This is an open forum.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

I think that WhoopAss is close but still a little off. There will be many more sides to the story very soon. People who have left a long time ago are beginning to show up all of a sudden. It is going to be one big power sturggle.
:shrug:


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## Keil Randor

Sounds like a family reunion...people you aint seen in eons suddenly appear, and talk the talk...but very few will beable to walk the walk.

It don't sound fun...not at all.


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## GouRonin

If anything is missing I blame the Renegade. Check his pockets. I hope to come down on the 24th and meet up with Big Guy while he's at the Datu's.

As for me mopping up the floor. I'm just a wee tiny lad. Don't worry about me. I'm just learning how to play with these sticks.


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## bloodwood

There was a time when when you became the boss because you earned it.  Prof Remy was such a man.  He was GM because he was good and everyone knew he could kick their ***. Now we challange each other at the keyboard. Too bad we can't go back to the streets of Cebu City and see who is left standing.
 With the Prof gone we now have a choice, and that choice should not be to follow some initials or some organization or someone who claims to be the man. Lets look at who's out there,  see what they got, and see if they can back it up. If you do this you'll know what is right for you. We practice a fighting art, and the people who lead should know the ART but better know how to FIGHT and LEAD.


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## Bob Hubbard

Good point.


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## Mao

Perhaps some of this has been said. The IMAF is, in fact, not quite in the middle of a civil war but at least past the middle.  As for Dr. Shea, I have alot of respect for him.  He is a great guiding force.  As for Renegade, whoever he is ,  I have alot of respect for him also, I know, I must be simple.  He at least lets you know where he stands and speaks his mind, what little there is left of it.   I agree, J. "daddy long legs" Delaney is rather self serving and has taken advantage of an already sad situation.  Shame on him.  His day will come.  Mr. Whoopass, he must be tough with a name like that, is correct. People should go to whoever is best for them.  In the mean time, the sparks will fly.  Querry, given the fact that our country is at war and other recent events, is there not something more inportant in life right now??  I guess it depends on how big the picture is that your looking at.


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## Mao

By the way, maybe we could put J. Delaney on the front lines............


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## GouRonin

Maybe a battle royal is needed...


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## Cthulhu

In all seriousness, some sort of physical contest would be one good way of determining who had a better understanding of the art.  

Another way would be to simply get everyone of significant rank (say, 3rd degree or higher) to simply vote on the successor.  However, this could be 'rigged'...offering promotions if voted for...offering help with financial matters, etc.

My opinion doesn't count for beans, since I'm not a Modern Arnin - or even FMA - practitioner, but I say:

Cage match!  Cage match!

 

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin

Why not just have like a "teach-off?"

Have a weekend seminar or a day seminar that FMA practitioners can go to. Then you slot times for each person to teach. Not letting the other teachers see what work was done maybe. The better teacher/practitioner would then be seen on the mat no? People could decide for themselves.

Then again...I like the cage match idea... plus the filipinos are know for their challenge matches!


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## Mao

I think I've had enough. The modern arnis "garden tool" is a joke.  Delaney is a joke.  I think that both groups are going to be short lived. At least with those with any experience in modern arnis in terms of seeing those instructors with any talent.  The IMAF website had become the Jeff Delaney show, another joke, so the site being taken from him by the likes of the modern arnis "garden tool" is yet another.......JOKE!!!  The underlying theme here is that the two afore mentioned poopstains are laughable.  It won't be long before it all comes out in the wash.  I know.  There are things at work that are yet behind the seens that will be in the open pretty soon.  I am anxiously anticipating this.  Stay tuned.


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## Cthulhu

It's like a mystery wrapped in an enigma hidden in a puzzle at the center of a maze with a blah blah blah blah blah  

Cthulhu
 goin' back to mindin' his own bidness


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## IFAJKD

This is the latest mag selling issue. Too familure with the JKDC vs OJKD battle. In the end there are many good practicioners and INstructors and many will also loose face. What's good and bad will never fully be sorted out. Not fully. Too many divisions. What is important is that personal growth does not stop
Good luck to those personally involved in this one.


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## Mao

Well, Jeff Duh-laney just named himself grandmaster and head of his own organization, w/out talking to anyone else on the board including the real named successor Randi Shea.  He has included some people w/very little experience or time practicing modern arnis.  It appears to be a mad scramble for some sort of ligitimization since haveing the website taken away from him by L. Harwood.  Let the games begin..............but there already in progress.............boy am I looking forward to Oct. 19-21.............yeehaa


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## Brian Johns

Mao is correct in noting that Duh laney has picked some questionable people for the officer positions in his desperate attempt to form a legit organization. I should know since I've worked with three of those officers. One of them has barely two years of experience in Modern Arnis. When I saw this so called Board on the Delaney website last night, I just about fell over.  So, yes, it should be interesting to see what happens in Chicago on the weekend of Oct 19-21.


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## Mao

Oh my! Perhaps Mao can meet Whoopass?  How interesting that would be...............


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## Bob Hubbard

What is the significance of the Dates Oct 19-21?


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## Brian Johns

Mao, I'll have to think about whether I want to meet some small time punk like you. As you know, my favorite hobby is opening a big can of Whoop *** on anybody who dares mess with me. 

Anyway, Keith asked the significance of the dates of Oct 19-21. There is a Modern Arnis camp taking place in Chicago that weekend and, from what I understand, some changes may be forthcoming. Mao knows more about what's going on thanI do.


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## GouRonin

Mao, Whoopass...I don't think it's good that you two hold back. Please share your real feelings on this with us will ya?


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## Cthulhu

Nobody else like my idea of a cage match?   

Here's a question: who are the 'big wigs' slated to appear at said Modern Arnis camp?  

Cthulhu


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## bloodwood

Wow!!! Michael Bates the new executive director of the IMAF. 
If he helps run the organization like he runs his own school, people should be heading for the doors real soon.
  Sorry, but I just couldn't resist saying that.


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## GouRonin

Wow, the Arnis world seems to have had a lot of problems and only Remy was holding them together.

Was all this just waiting to burst and only Remy kept things in check?


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## bloodwood

Yep!  With Prof Remy gone all the jokers are looking for their 15 minutes of fame. It may take awhile but the cream WILL rise to the top. It seems like the WMAA is the only organization that is on stable ground right now, while the others are beating each other up. It will be interesting to watch all this unfold.

  Nothing like a good martial arts soap opera !


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## Datu Tim Hartman

This is hot off the presses! How many Modern Arnis Groups will there be?

From:   INOCALLASHIR2
To: Arnisman

I know how tough and crazy it is in the last month. It is very difficult for 
us. Prof. has left us with his spirit and his wisdom. We can only go on and 
live his legacy. You and all his student are doing great work. Continue it. I 
am also put in a situation here that I see needs to be done. I will go ahead 
and pursue it. I will ask assistance from you and every one I know and are 
sympathetic to Filipino martial arts and GM Remy Presas. 1 rst I want to 
finish a respectable grave for him. 2nd I want to support our members in 
Bacolod and Hinigaran to establish a Modern Arnis educational institute 
there. I am lobbying for the city council to declare Bacolod to be Modern 
Arnis City. 3rd I am producing Arnis and Martial Arts TV series for National 
station, 4th I am uniting filipino martial arts here in the 
Philippines...Modern Arnis Maharlikha Obviously this will need money and 
time. You and our supporters can greatly help us here financially. You and 
our members can do a fund campaign for these projects. I believe this has to 
be done now for the survival and propagation of filipino martial here and the 
world. Thank you for your support. Keep me in touch. You can pass this 
message to our supporters.
You brother in Arnis,
Shishir Inocalla
:soapbox:


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## Cthulhu

It seems the new player is openly campaigning for money.

As Alice said, "Curioser and curioser."

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard

I can see a couple of "competing" orgs.  Different focuses, different players, yet the core is Remy's Modern Arnis.  Basically, a bit of a different focus, flavor if you will may be a good thing.

The problem arises when the competition is not friendly, but brutal.  When the students, who only wish to learn a great art are used as pawns between warring premadonas, who's only goal is a piece of the cash prize known as Modern Arnis.

The fall out will be schools that test for cash, vs turning out trained students.  Instructors who only know a fraction of the art, suddenly self-promoted to high poobah status. Etc. Etc.

And the art gets lost in the political mess.

Personally, I'd rather train under an instructor who was personally trained by Remy.  Who has broader exposure to other arts (Kail, Escrima, Bondo, etc) so you get a full package vs just a part.  Who those people are, I don't know.  Some are here, some are not.  I think when the dust settles, they will be the ones with the strong growing organizations.  The rest, may survive by turning out substandard students, or learning to say "Ya want fries with that?" 

Either way, when I earn my Modern Arnis Black Belt, I'll know it was from a fully qualified instructor.  Not a glory hog, or some johnny come lately, or someone who just read a few books and can use Photoshop to make a cert.

Peace.


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## GouRonin

I think I will start my own Arnis group. I'll call it, "Guys who never did Arnis while the Prof was alive but now want to cash in"

Who's joining?


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## Bob Hubbard

Well....first ya gotta write a book...so, step one is get some sticks...step 2, make fancy poses and step 3 is profit.


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## Cthulhu

Ooh, can I be the 'fall guy' in the pics for the book?  I can make a really good, "Oh, that really hurt!" face!

I know we're making light of the Modern Arnis leadership crisis, but you have to admit, it is getting rather ridiculous.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard

Its a tense situation, and lives will change, possibly a few careers ended over this.

We make the jokes, to lighten up the atmosphere a bit, and break the tension.  A pause to clear the mind sorta.

This way, when the next wave of seriousness arrives, it is delivered with a clear head, rather than emotions run wild.

Course, I sparred last night, and someone kept aiming for my head...so mines probly not too clear.   (colds don't help either).


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## Datu Tim Hartman

It is truly sad that such B.S. has to go down. We should be trying to honor the man not cash in on him. What can you do in every bunch of apples there are always a few rotten ones.


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## GouRonin

Usually you take bad apples and you boil them in hot water and crush them to make applesauce.
:samurai:


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Crush, Kill, Destroy Them All! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha!:flame:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> *It is truly sad that such B.S. has to go down. We should be trying to honor the man not cash in on him. What can you do in every bunch of apples there are always a few rotten ones. *



But there's so much more to it than that. The Professor led us to this state of confusion by not clearly indicating who would succeed him and then slowly working that person more and more into his seminars and giving him or her other leadership opportunities over a period of years. In addition, so many Modern Arnis practictioners do arnis as a second art and their emotional attachment to Modern Arnis is lessened because of this. (In addition, they generally rely on their base art for empty-hand techniques and don't develop significant Modern Arnis empty-hand techniques. This is easily tested--pick a random Modern Arnis black belt and ask them to demonstrate an anyo. They won't know one. They don't take them seriously.) Also, black belts have been handed out like candy in Modern Arnis for years and the recipients know this. It's painfully obvious that none of the Professor's U.S. students ever approached him in skill, in part because they couldn't train with him constantly and in part because he didn't share everything he had. This means the complete art isn't known by any one person (possibly the complete art wasn't ever well-defined).

But much more to the point, the sum total of all these effects is a lack of full confidence in the art and its practitioners. This fallout is reminiscent of the Ed Parker situation but in that case you had powerful martial artists sparring for control of a large, well-defined organization. Here weak arnisadors are vying for control of Remy Presas' legacy. They don't have the standing to truly take control because they don't have the respect of those who have worked with them...for a variety of reasons.

(I do not include in this Tim Hartman, who doesn't appear to be trying to take control and who above all has shown his affection for and skill in Modern Arnis through his actions, not through talk. He was focusing on the empty-hand applications in Modern Arnis long ago, and making Modern Arnis his principal art. I should add that I am a friend and student of Mr. Hartman.)

I suspect that it's over for Modern Arnis. Within a decade all that will be left is Arnis Inocalla, Arnis Delaney, Arnis Presas Jr., etc. The only thing that could save its unity now, in my opinion, would be to merge with one of the Professor's brothers' organizations. This is not because I believe they are the best qualified but because I believe that no one else would gain sufficiently wide support from the Modern Arnis community.


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## GouRonin

This was something in the making. Avoidable maybe, but not now.

:cuss:


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## IFAJKD

There are those great many people who "marry" to the system instead of utilizing that which is needed. I come from such a trong background in JKD that to look entirly at one system is missing the rest of the picture. Martial arts does not exist so that we may have loyalties to an individual. Yet we can admire their skill and their contribution. Martial arts exists to free people from chains litterally and figurativley. To save lives at the risk of possibly one day taking one. If it happens on any level the person lying on the ground will not wonder if that strike came from an angle 1 or 2 or 5 or if it was abinico or rodondo. Systems are nothing more than contributions to the whole not a whole themselves. In the end this argument will not make anyone more or less effective. It is a distraction from training. 
Of course, all of this is only true if you are into combative effectiveness as a whole vs the tieing of oneself to one system.  Remey Presas was a very good martial artist and contributed much. To that end he will be missed. The issue of who controls what is really irrelevent except for status, money and ego :asian: :soapbox:


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## Cthulhu

Prof. Presas may not have chosen a successor earlier simply because he never planned on getting sick and dying.  As I infer from one of Renegade's earlier posts, certain people may have taken advantage of the Professor's unclear state of mind when he was sick.  This alone is deplorable.

Cthulhu


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## Bob Hubbard

Some people are motivated by fear.  Fear of losing their "place" be it a place to live, a title, a rank, a place to belong, etc.

Some are motivated by greed.  A want of money, fame, or other such "material" things.

Some are motivated by anger, thoughts of revenge for a slight both real and imagined.

Others are motivated by the desire to continue a fine art...to remember a great man....and more.

These are the ones we should seek out.  For in them alone, do I see the art surviving, and the memories remain. :asian:


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## Keil Randor

I thought in situations like this that the leadership role usually fell to either a family member who is highly ranked in the art, or to the highest ranked student of the deceased?

I know GM Presas has a brother...Ernesto?  Is he involved with Modern Arnis?

In regards to Mr. Delany - What rank is he?  I've seen him listed as a 3rd degree Black Belt, a 5th degree and a 10th (isn't that what a Grandmaster rank is?)

In regards to Ms. Harwood - What rank is she, and what level of leadership has she had in the MA community?

Regarding the Presas family - I have seen GM Remy Presas listed as the founder of the art, and know his brother (Ernesto?) is also active in -a- art (not sure if its MA or something else.  What has the rest of the family done?

I'm sorry for being a little naieve here, but I don't understand the connections in the players at this time.  Not too familiar with the FMA area.   Thanks.


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## ARNIS PRINCESS

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> The only thing that could save its unity now, in my opinion, would be to merge with one of the Professor's brothers' organizations. This is not because I believe they are the best qualified but because I believe that no one else would gain sufficiently wide support from the Modern Arnis community. *



  With regard to Arnisador's post - I agree with most everything he states with the exception of his last paragraph.  I have attended numerous seminars of Professor Presas, Ernesto Presas and Mr. Hartman.  The professor was a showman.  He knew how to please the crowd.  I don't believe his brother, Ernesto, has the same level of ability, either in the showmanship or in his level of proficiency in Modern Arnis.  He may be an excellent combatant, but his seminars certainly don't prove it.  Mr. Hartman is proving to be an excellent alternative in terms of his Modern Arnis ability, as well as his ability to "work the crowd".  I would definitely attend one of his seminars before I would consider attending one of Ernesto's seminars.

Arnis Princess


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## Sir_Yantok

GM Remy Presas has a brother, Ernesto Presas and he is involved in a system similar to Modern Arnis.

Delaney is definitely a pretender in a brawl.

I believe that Harwood has no position of leadership in any organization, and I believe in modernarnis.com that her only involvement with the Presas Family is donating the website for their organization. I believe the director of MARPPIO will be Remy. P. Presas Jr.

The Children of Remy Presas are knowledgable in the art of Arnis, reason being is that their father is the Grandmaster, especially Mary Ann and Remy Jr.


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## Datu Tim Hartman

*I thought in situations like this that the leadership role usually fell to either a family member who is highly ranked in the art, or to the highest ranked student of the deceased?*
That is what the problem is. I have made my opinions for years that the IMAF needed some house cleaning. If tradition was followed by it's members I would be in charge and people would have to shape up or ship out. This is why I think things went down the way they did. 

*I know GM Presas has a brother...Ernesto? Is he involved with Modern Arnis?*
Ernesto has his own art Kombaton. It is not the same program.

*In regards to Mr. Delaney - What rank is he? I've seen him listed as a 3rd degree Black Belt, a 5th degree and a 10th (isn't that what a Grandmaster rank is?)*
JD is only a 5th degree. None of the MOTTs were promoted above that rank. I don't understand how any of them could use the title of GM.

*In regards to Ms. Harwood - What rank is she, and what level of leadership has she had in the MA community?* 
She had a 1st degree black and was the first to manage Remy' web site.

*Regarding the Presas family - I have seen GM Remy Presas listed as the founder of the art, and know his brother (Ernesto?) is also active in -a- art (not sure if its MA or something else. What has the rest of the family done? *
The children were active in the Philippines in the forming of the art but have not been active with Remy in 20 years.

*I believe the director of MARPPIO will be Remy. P. Presas Jr.*
He is the President.

*The Children of Remy Presas are knowledgeable in the art of Arnis, reason being is that their father is the Grandmaster, especially Mary Ann and Remy Jr.*
Once again in the original style, not what Remy turned it into. Remember they have not trained with him in 20 years. This is told me directly by the Presas family themselves.

*The only thing that could save its unity now, in my opinion, would be to merge with one of the Professor's brothers' organizations. This is not because I believe they are the best qualified but because I believe that no one else would gain sufficiently wide support from the Modern Arnis community.*
If I had not had the opportunity to attend several of Ernesto's seminars I would agree. He good at what he does but as fare as teaching the art I would have to agree with Arnis Princess that I do a much better job than he does in the seminar format. He moves well but we are talking about teaching the art to further it not just fighting with it. In addition he does not know Remy's art.

Arnisador was right when he said that people don't know the whole art. When I tested last year we were asked to do six count drill. This is very basic yet most of the black belts could not do it along with a bunch of other basic moves. Leadership is important. A good leader would make sure that errors like that would not happen.

The funny thing is that of all of the "Players that are involved I am the only you that started in and teaches Modern Arnis as a full time art with the exception of the Presas family. They have all relied on other arts for their foundation and teach our art as a secondary art form.
:soapbox: :samurai::uzi: 

* P.S. I Love these new smiles! Give us More!!*
:cheers::flame:


----------



## Cthulhu

To me, logic would dictate (yikes...sound like Spock) that in the absence of a qualified successor (by which, I mean a successor agreed upon by the vast majority of the instructors in the system), the leadership should pass to the highest ranked, active person in the system.  By many accounts, that would seem to be Mr. Hartman, who can prove his promotion to 6th degree black belt by Mr. Presas himself.  From what I can tell, no other person currently active in Modern Arnis can match that claim.

Bear in mind that I have no affiliation with Modern Arnis, the WMAA, or the IMAF.  In fact, I do not even practice a Filipino martial art.  This is just me applying basic logic to an increasingly confusing issue.

Cthulhu
  done talkin' outta his butt


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

But Spock... we have.. no...intelligent...lifeforms...to...hear you...
Scottie....One to beam up!
:shrug:


----------



## bloodwood

There is no way that a 5th degree black belt will have the drawing power or get the respect needed to carry the modern arnis organization into the future. Any one of higher rank or for that mater the same rank will not fall in line behind them. What is needed is someone of higher rank than the rest, with high exposure, great depth of knowledge in Modern Arnis and supplemented with cross training in other art forms. This person must know how to lead and make people want to make themselves better just by watching them and saying, i want to be like that someday.
  Say what you will, haggle over it all you want, but the only person who fits that description is DATU TIM HARTMAN.
  There is no way Tim Hartman could fall in line behind someone of much lower rank and knowledge, however it could go the other way around. Under Datu Hartman, Modern Arnis could thrive and come to the forefront of the arts. From what I know of him, I am sure he would share the pie and bring in the high ranked Modern Arnis instructors to assist and help in keeping the Professor's dream alive.
  There should be no need to haggle over this because the right man for the job is already doing the job every time he teaches


----------



## Cthulhu

From what I'm reading, it seems that many of the black belts, including higher ranking black belts (!) don't even know some of the basic requirements.

Simple test:  Anyone claiming leadership of the system _must_ be able to demonstrate all of the basic requirements needed for their current rank.  Furthermore, they must be able to explain them down to the most minute detail.  This would probably knock quite a few people 'out of the running'.

In my eyes, this would be like somebody claiming leadership of Shotokan karate, yet that person was unable to perform the Heian katas, which are pretty much the basic kata that all black belts have to know.

And to bring in something from another forum on this board...a person can claim whatever the hell they want.  However, after all is said and done, and they can't perform, then they expose themselves for what they are fairly quickly.

If this Delaney fella is as bad as people are saying, then he'll bring himself to ruin, given time.

Patience, Grasshopper(s).

Cthulhu


----------



## GouRonin

I don't know about anyone else but  few beers motivates me...
:rofl:


----------



## Rich Parsons

:soapbox: 

Hi All - 
I met the Renegade many years ago, at a Michigan
Summer Camp. I believe in 1986. I agree, throw
him some raw meat from time to time, the iron
is good for you, or at least for me it is. ;~)

I was curious about the Modern Arnis website
and the fact that Lori gave it to the Presas,
family. It is hers to give, yes, and the Presas 
family could have it in my mind. But will she
take ti back from them later? When her mind
changes. 

To the Renegade: Does the public promotion 
include an open test, with members from other arts
present including others from Modern Arnis? Or
must it be at a Summer camp or seminar? The Flint
group I train with all tested for their belts
in front of others present, but mostly locals.
I have had the privledge to see some test for
third and fourth in front of GM Presas. 
(* Moment of Respect *)
Just curious.

As to miss Loru Harwood. Remy Presas approached me and one of bst friends to help with the website. He told us to make it better. To contact Lori and help her. We did. My friend gave up
after being unable to get any information from
Miss Harwood. She was even present when GM Presas
told us to help her. I continues out of a sense
of duty. 6 Months later Remy Presas approached me again and asked my why there were no improvements? I tried to explain that I could not get anythign from Lori. Lori was afraid I was going to take the web site away from her. After GM Presas talked to her, and I contacted her again, she at least was beginning to cooperate. But, to get this, I had to
tell her numerous time, not to put my name on the web site. Take full credit. Even with this she
only delivered half the files for me to work with.
OR she would not make the corrections, I sent back to her.

I finally had to tell GM Presas I was not able to help him out. I did not do this for the credit
or for a rank, but because of a man I respected
asked me to help him. But in the end I could not.

I do hope that she has turned around and does
not hurt the Presas' Family. 

As for the IMAF, I consider my self a defunct
ex-member, who no longer holds any rank.  
The knowloedge is still there, which is all I
ever wanted. The titles are for people who not
only deserve them, but can dedicate their life
and time to the art. FMA is a part of my life.

THanks for the soap box

Rich


----------



## Cthulhu

At the risk of getting :flame: 

I'll say this:  whoever this Harwood woman is, nobody seems to have anything particularly nice to say about her.  

Just an observation.

Cthulhu


----------



## GouRonin

What does she look like?


----------



## IFAJKD

Messy...staying away...Someone will be the weakest link...goodbye


----------



## Icepick

Holy SHEEET!!  This place looks like FUN!!  :rofl:


----------



## IFAJKD

full of land mines. walk softly:flame:


----------



## bloodwood

One good thing that has come of all this is that the ranks of Martial Talk are growing. HOORAY for us!!!

I think I'll stay up the rest of the weekend and send in 1000 posts and become a  Grand Master, then Monday I'll unvail my new organization.  I better go and get started before Gou gets there first.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

:rofl: 
Just remember..they gotta be quality posts.  No fair posting 1000 single-smilie posts.


----------



## Cthulhu

We may end up needing a separate forum for the Modern Arnis debate.  I don't think any other forum has generated quite so many responses.

Cthulhu


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Well, they say controvercy is good.... 

Course, I think the majority of our visitors are currently FMA folks too, as the words still getting out about us.  I expect that within a year, all the forums will be buzzing nicely.  :asian:


----------



## DPRESAS

In behalf of our family,the late grand master Remy  Presas we would like to extend appreciation to all that has remember our father for what he has done to promote the modern arnis art. There could only be one grand master and that is the late Remy A. Presas for those who would like to be new grand master I only have one question to ask you , did you founded or created the art of modern arnis ? if so you may claim the title. How ever if you have not founded modern arnis or created the art . the grand master is Remy A. Presas. For those who are questioning the abilities of my brother and my sister. On how good they are in modern arnis you will be surprise. I would like to inform everybody. My self , Dr Remy presas and Mary Ann will be accompanied by our senior instructor from the Philippine each instructor are the original students of our father which they are from 7th to 9th degree blackbelt in modern arnis/ eskrima/ kali. All of the instuctor have been arnis trainers for thirty years they will accompany us during seminars as consultance. Dr. Presas and Mary Ann along with the senior instructors were the first to be train by our father before he migrated to America in the years that has past they have continued to practice and maintain the skills that was past down from our great grandfather to our grandfather to our father and now to us. We will continue to protect our fathers good name and his title as the only grandmaster of modern arnis.

                                                             Dr. Remy P Presas
                                                             Demetrio Jose P Presas III
                                                             MaryAnn P Presas        
                                                                     MARPPIO    :asian:


----------



## bloodwood

Yes there is only one grand master of Modern Arnis and that is Remy A Presas. Iwill miss him terribly. The question is now that your family is trying to continue leadership of Modern Arnis, and since Remy was teaching in the USA for the past 20 years where was your training coming from and who promoted these original students to 7th rank and above? I have not met any of the family or seen any of you in action, so I will keep an open mind.

Never would I disrespect the Professor's family in any way and I look foreward to crossing sticks with you. You must remember though that your family has emerged with the suttulty of a tornado here in America. Many people have many questions.
People follow who they know and are familiar with their style and their personality. There is much to consider.

The other issue that you need to address is Datu Tim Hartman, your fathers close friend and his highest active ranked Modern Arnis student. He was unjustly left out of the IMAF group and this issue must be cleared up. I hate to say it but your family's leadership abillity will be put to the test right away.

The road ahead will be rocky so Go With the Flow

BLOODWOOD


----------



## DPRESAS

In regards to Tim Hartman we think of him highly not just as a practitioner nor a student of our father but as family member he is probably one of the best student of our father in regards to IMAF leadership we are not here to dictate or take over any part of IMAF we have our own organization. Everyone is welcome we are willing to accomodate and work side by side as long as our fathers legacy will not be challenge or tarnished. We have been silent long enough because of the request of our father for us not to get involve in this type of situation( such as politics, intrigues, and etc.) How ever at this point we will continue our fathers legacy we might not be the succesor or so called grandmaster however we are the heirs and true blood of Grandmaster Remy A. Presas. His blood runs in our veins and it is in the blood of Presas clan were modern arnis was born.
 D. Presas
MARPPIO


----------



## IFAJKD

Thank you. well said...lets move on from the politics and train


----------



## GouRonin

You wanna be the man you gotta beat the man...and I ain't the man...heh heh heh
:rofl:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Gou - nope..I saw your pics...and you ain't a platnium blond.


----------



## Keil Randor

I don't believe GM Presas legacy would be tarnished.  When both Bruce Lee and Ed Parker Sr. died, their organizations split (many ways) but the fact still remains, they were innovators who took the arts to a new level.  I think part of the question here is on the credentials of those who would follow GM Presas in the Modern Arnis world.

My understanding of the evolution of Modern Arnis is that GM Presas began the development of it in the Philippines, and then continued the evolution once in the US.  

I understand that a large percentage of MA practitioners have a portion of the program, but lack other parts to make it a complete whole.  Very few exist that have seen and trained in the whole program.

My understanding is that Datu Time Hartman has done this.  I also understand there are a few others with a Datu title.  Without reopening -THAT- can of worms, were the other Datu's also personal students of GM Presas?

I am also of the understanding that there was little cross training between the different branches of Modern Arnis once the GM was in the US.  If true, this would imply a divergence in the art, creating a Filipino Modern Arnis and a US Modern Arnis, as the 2 parts would evolve from a common root into 2 similar, but different arts.

When the founder of an art takes it to the "next level", sometimes there are splits.  This happened to Ed Parker during his development of Kenpo.  (I believe there were 3 different versions) and he lost most of his original black belts during this time.  I'm not saying this happened to the GM, but it has happened before.  There is also the non-stop argument of what Bruce Lee would have done vs what he did do, etc.

Perhaps some information on who these senior black belts are, their training, the amount of communications they had with GM Presas over those 20+ years,  your own levels of involvement during the same years, etc. might help clear up the misunderstandings and wonderings.

I mean no disrespect by this, and my understandings of the Arnis world is -very- limited.  But in times of political turmoil, sometimes you have to explain things to the masses in very simple, very detailed ways.  Otherwise, they find things easy to confuse.  I just seek to clear things up as well as possible.

Thank you for your time.


----------



## IFAJKD

I can appreciate the need to clear things up. When we engage however in trying to disqualify, argue and split people, then training is not happening. We have to remember that all will sort out and that it was all started to add a missing element. When Bruce developed JKD he didn't plan his death nor should he have. He was not focused on "JKD" he was focused on its soul, what combat was and how to be the best at it. This was his sight. The common charateristic that all of these people share was a distaste for politics and distractions from the end goal.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I don't think the intent is to disqualify, rather to help clear up the qualifications of those involved.  Then we can all as Renegade suggested find the teacher/organization that works for us.  Be it WMAA, IMAF, MARPPIO, MOTT, or whomever.

:yinyang:

ps - Renegade - more smilies added.


----------



## GouRonin

I have to ask though how many of these other guys have travelled and sought out missing pieces of the art they study? I know the Renegade Datu has sought out GM Ted Buot (sp) to learn more about his own art and the sister arts for example. He's trying to complete the puzzle and he's not afraid to start in other arts to do so. He shows up not only to teach at many american kenpo camps but he also takes the floor to learn.

In my opinion, anyone who takes the floor to learn no matter what rank they are or what art theyare doing... rawks da house!
:soapbox:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Too True.

A teacher who is not afraid to expand their knowledge is best IMO.

I have problems with those who stop learning once they get a Black Belt. (ie the "Im the teacher, so I know it all" problem.)  Notice I said, "GET" not "EARN".  I can go buy a black belt for $4 and call myself a teacher.  Course, All I can do is teach ya to eat canvas (hint - bring salt.  Helps the taste. )


----------



## IFAJKD

You can never stop being a student. Thats where it's at. I have said it before, the frustrations in the Instructors I have taught that are reluctant to be in front of other students as this would somehow harm their reputation.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Hail and Well Met, (* Not to forget the snow *)

I am not sure where to begin.


Once again no disrespect meant to anyone.

There have been many people who have travelled for a year or for many years with GM Remy Presas. Some have staid active in Modern Arnis, many have left and either found other homes or started their own systems. This does not take away from Mr Hartman,
who was one of the last men to dedicate themselves to travel the world with GM Presas.

As for the number of factions, I think it could be endless. The number of serious factions will be less. The number of students the GM Presas taught and travelled to see, and promoted, are many and may of those did not get involved with politics. There by ending their carear in FMA / Modern Arnis. Even though GM Presas may not have wanted politics, many other did. The number of 'qualified' instructors, who no loger have a 'home', who will just teach is a large. I agree with what Mr Hartmans' organization is trying and most likely will do. Standardize and trace to legitmize rank. BUt I think there will be the one and two student schools that will all just continue on their own.

As for Grand Master Title. (* I restate no disrepect to anyone especialy the Presas family. *) In my limited studies, I have found that in some FMA it was possible for more than one person to have the title of Grandmaster. It did not mean creator or inheiritor, or ..., but that this individual had the complete system in thier bad of tricks as was taught by their instructor(s). Now if an organization wishes to state that the title Grand Master is for the creator / originator is fine. It is for that system to decide.

As for the IMAF,  found it very interesting that
many of the higher ranking people in Michigan, and near by areas were not even consulted for a committee of knowledgable people to draw upon, for the continuation of the art. Yes, Mr. Hartman tested for and received his 6th Lakan Anim and Datu Titles. Others I know of also tested and received Lakan Lima (* three people *), Lakan Apat (* two people *), but not one was even considered, since they were not political person, nor travelling wiht the profeseur at the time as Mr. Hartman was. And yes before you all jump on me, Mr. Hartman was not considered, either, until after others had made a grab for power.


Thanks for the :soapbox: 

Rich

P.S. - Ted Bout prefers the title, Manong Bout,
Grand Master is reserved for Anciong Bacon.:asian:


----------



## Mao

There are WAY to many SHAMELESS plugs going on for this Renegade guy. His head is BIG enough already!  It has been said before that people will go with who they like.  There are extremely few people in the U.S. who know the older Presas children. There are also extremely few people who REALLY like this Renegade character.   That leaves only ME, and of course Whoopass if I don't kill him first. What a turd! You gonna make something of it Candyass, I mean Whoopass? 
Seriously, many people are uptight and posturing probably for nothing. People will still go with who they like, or perhaps who is closest to them. There are still things going on that I will post more about in a bit. As you can tell, there are people comeing outta the woodwork.  Keep staying tuned..............at least for the humor   :armed:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

I want to make some things clear. I'm not fighting, nor do I want to, over the IMAF. I don't think it's worth fighting for. My issues are about how Jeff D. and the rest of the MOTTs have tried to make me appear as a traitor to Remy and his art! I've been told to my face by one of the MOTTs that rank meant nothing to Remy, yet From July 2000 to October 2000 he was promoted from 3rd black to 5th black and given the title of Tapi-Tapi Master. If rank didn't count, why did Remy bother giving any rank and not just the title? Randy Shea told me in Germany, Remy changed 5th black from Jr. Master to full Master. If Remy truly wanted to make this group the new leaders in the Modern Arnis world, why did he not promote them above my rank? 

I left the IMAF and forfeited all claims to that group. Don't tell me that I have no claims to Modern Arnis! I had been preparing the WMAA for over 5 years. Why? Because I saw what was happening behind the scenes and saw all of this coming. Look at Parker's Kenpo, JKD, Wing Chung, etc. This is history repeating itself. The only thing that was different was that people didn't wait for Remy to die before starting the political B.S. 

* My self, Dr Remy Presas and Mary Ann will be accompanied by our senior instructor from the Philippine each instructor are the original students of our father which they are from 7th to 9th degree black belt in modern arnis/ eskrima/ kali. All of the instructor have been arnis trainers for thirty years they will accompany us during seminars as consultance. Dr. Presas and Mary Ann along with the senior instructors were the first to be train by our father before he migrated to America in the years that has past they have continued to practice and maintain the skills that was past down from our great grandfather to our grandfather to our father and now to us.*
As the Presas family said in one of their previous posts, I consider them family.  But because we are family, does not mean we agree on all points.   As far as the Presas' and their consultants go, they were around the art at one of its most important times - the beginning.  There in no doubt in my mind that anyone that has been training consistently for over thirty years should be one hell of a martial artist.  The problem is that they had missed twenty plus years of development of Remy's art.  Remy was constantly fine tuning and/or developing new material, and seeing that neither the family nor the instructors from the Philippines were training with Remy during this time, they would have no idea in what direction Remy was going.  At the same token, my complaints with many of the new Modern Arnis practitioners is that they don't know the basics that Remy built the art on.  As I said before, it's embarrassing that many of the black belts cannot execute simple techniques, like trapping hands Decadena or six count drill.  I am looking forward to seeing what the MARPPIO instructional staff will be teaching.  I am sure that they will be able to share drills and techniques that Remy chose not to, or even forgot to teach.  

* We will continue to protect our father's good name and his title as the only grandmaster of modern arnis.*
This is a goal that we should all work for. Remy is the true founder of the art, but maybe someone else will become proficient enough to earn that title someday.  I feel that the title GM has different meanings to different people.  Saying that it is only the founder limits the life span of the art.  By that definition, the art will become extinct.  

* You can never stop being a student. That's where it's at. I have said it before, the frustrations in the Instructors I have taught that are reluctant to be in front of other students as this would somehow harm their reputation.*
This is why I continue to train with GM Ted Buot.  I don't ever want to feel that I have "learned it all".  I get bored and complacent when I am not learning.  It doesn't even have to be FMA, as long as I am learning something.  

*It has been said before that people will go with who they like.*
Of course it was said, Mao.  I was the one who said it!  By the way, they will go with WHOM they like.

I don't want to take away from any of the other instructors, but when people take shots at me for no other reason than jealousy and insecurity, I will not let that go unanswered.  I told Dr. Shea, who "WAS" the chairman of the board of the IMAF, that I would be more than happy to do joint events with the IMAF.  I also told them that if they started a mud-slinging campaign against me, that I would have no problems telling the truth on a lot of things that happened.  All I wanted was to co-exist peacefully. But unfortunately, in their attempt to promote themselves, they have taken shots at me.  And homey don't play that!
:boing2: :soapbox: :uhoh:


----------



## Brian Johns

Folks,

I've got several thoughts and in no particular order:

(1) There are those who are aghast at the various factions of Modern Arnis.  I don't necessarily think that it's a bad situation at all. The WMAA will be in good hands with Datu Hartman. Despite some aspersions of some of those on here toward the MOTTS, I think that they are quite a good group of Arnisadors (with the exception of the self appointed Grandmaster).  Prof Presas named 7 people as Masters of Tapi Tapi.  Out of those 7, it appears that one is leaving himself out to hang himself. The other 6 will be together with Dr. Schea as the guiding force. Dr. Schea is very very good and had been with the Professor for quite a few years. He's got quite a bit of experience in Tai Chi, Silat, and Modern Arnis. So bottom line, I think that anybody who chooses the WMAA will be fine and anybody who chooses the MOTTS will be fine.

(2) Folks should be reminded that there is a reason that the Professor bestowed several people with the honor of Masters of Tapi Tapi. Remy heavily emphasized tapi tapi in the last several years. As a matter of fact, 8 out of the new 15 videos focus on tapi tapi. I can't tell you how many times he stressed the importance of tapi tapi at seminars and camps in the last several years. Tapi tapi became the core concept of Remy's art.  It appears that the MOTTs are committed to teaching Modern Arnis as it was taught by Prof Presas in the last several years. Is that so bad ? I think that it stands to reason that he would not name anyone a Master of Tapi Tapi unless they knew tapi tapi. If you don't know tapi tapi, you ain't gonna be no Master of Tapi Tapi.  

(3) I find it interesting that the Presas family has now decided to get involved in the whole thing. I have a few questions for D. Presas (who has posted here)

(a) I've never seen you or members of your family at your father's camps and seminars over the years. Where were you all these years ? What made you decide to come out (a month after his death) ?
(b) What is the reason behind the formation of MARPPIO ? What do you hope to accomplish ?
(c) Do you and your family know tapi tapi as it was taught by your father in the last several years ?
(d) Why are you associating yourself with Ms. Harwood ? (as evidenced by her letter on the MARPPIO website) This move alone is going to alienate a large part of the Modern Arnis community.


Woo!!!

:flame:


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS

I have attended seminars with both the MOTTS and Mr. Hartman.  Mr. Hartman puts the MOTTS to shame. Could it be that Mr. Hartman was not named a MOTT because the was given the title of DATU, which in Professor Presas eyes may have superceded the title of MOTT?  If I am not mistaken, as previously discussed on the Eskrima Digest, the title of DATU (meaning chieftain or leader)has been used for quite some time, whereas the title of MOTT was only first mentioned after the Professor's hospitalization.  What was the Professor's mental and emotional state at that time?  Were these titles earned or just given is response to pressure by certain people?


Arnis Princess


----------



## Mao

Renegade, I know full well who said it!! Also, correcting my english acomplished NOTHING! Should I begin checking all your grammer and examining your posts for typo's? I think not. I have more important things to think about.:samurai: 
In all seriousness, (is that spelled right, Renegade?) I fear that there is no stopping the factioning that is to come. I don't think that that is necessarily a bad thing. Some of the groups will be larger than others, friendlier than others etc..  The diversity could be good for newcomers in some ways.  The important thing is that the Profs. art is continued. There are those of us who have spent varying numbers of years with him and will teach it as he taught us.  Let us not forget also that he had said so many times to explore the art. What happens when there is exploration? Often there are new discoveries. Modern arnis was and is the best of a blend of systems.  The Prof. incorporated what he had learned over a lifetime of experience into his art, modern arnis. His art had evolved over the years.  So should we.  Otherwise we stagnate. That would stink..............like Renegade.:samurai:


----------



## Cthulhu

Again, I have no affiliation with ANYBODY in the FMA and particularly Modern Arnis...

What really burns me is that by all appearances, a few of the people in question seem to have taken advantage of a sick man who could very well have been suffering from impaired judgement at the time.  Mr. Hartman seems to be the only one named who did NOT do this.  To me, that speaks _volumes_.

<rant mode off>

:yinyang: 

Cthulhu


----------



## Mao

And besides, Renegade, I said it too!!!!  How's that for syntax?  Do you even know what that means.......without looking it up first?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Friendly warning...play nice.  I see the heat level rising. Just want to maintain civility. 

Thanks!

:yinyang: :asian:


----------



## Mao

Renegade, 
 Are you gonna point out to Cthulu that that post been said also? Feel like sparring more??


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Mao,
   Isn't syntax the tax you pay for all your sins?:rofl:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Ow Ow Ow Ow

bad jokes...bad jokes....


----------



## Mao

Haa......yeehaa:cheers:


----------



## DPRESAS

Reply to "Whoop" !

Thank you for your communication and to your interest in the Philippine Martial Art particularly Modern Arnis, the art developed by our Father Professor Remy Amador Presas.

In reference to your questions about MARPIO...please refer to
our website and I assure you it will be a revelation to EVERYONE !

As to Ms. Lori Harwood's participation in MARPIO...HER ONLY PARTICIPATION IN MARPIO IS THAT......SHE DONATED I REPEAT
DONATED HER WEBSITE TO MARPIO OUT OF RESPECT TO THE FAMILY !....AND UNDERSTANDING FULLY THE CUSTOMS,CULTURE ,AND TRADITION OF THE REPUBLIC OF THE PHILIPPINES.

With regards  to the Senior students resume, background, and training ......again...WE INVITE EVERYONE TO AGAIN CHECK THE WEBSITE OF MARPIO AND YOU WILL FIND ALL OF THE INFORMATION REGARDING THE SENIOR CONSULTANTS.....

THE PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ART ( AS EVERY KNOWLEDGEABLE  KALI ESKRIMA ARNIS AFFICIONMADO WILL AGREE TO )  HAS SO MANY VARIED STYLES AND TECHNIQUES .....AND THIS IS THE VERY REASON WHY OUR FATHER CALLED HIS ART ...MODERN ARNIS..THE ART WITHIN YOUR ART..IT HAS SO MANY ENDLESS COMBINATIONS OF ALL THE FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS AND TAPI-TAPI IS ONLY ONE ASPECT AND TECHNIQUE OUT OF THE NUMEROUS COMBINATIONS !

IN CONCLUSION...THE FAMILY AGAIN WOULD LIKE TO EMPHASIZE  
THAT MARPIO WAS ORGANIZED NOT TO COUNTER ANY OTHER ORGANIZATION OR FEDERATION OF MODERN ARNIS BUT RATHER
TO ASSIST IN WHATEVER WAY IN COORDINATING AND UNITING EVERY PHILIPPINE MARTIAL ART PRACTITIONER ( NOT ONLY MODERN ARNIS )...AND TO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE LEGACY ACCORDING TO PHILIPPINE  CUSTOMS , TRADITIONS, AND CULTURE THAT...THE FAMILY ( ESPECIALLY THE BLOODLINE )
ARE THE TRUE HEIRS TO FOLLOW THRU WITH THE LEGACY OF OUR FATHER PROFESSOR REMY AMADOR PRESAS

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SUCCESORS...AND HEIRS..
THE FAMILY ARE THE HEIRS..AND THEY RESPECT THEIR LATE FATHER'S APPOINTMENT OF HIS SUCCESORS...LIKEWISE WE 
WOULD ALSO LIKE TO REQUEST THAT EVERYONE RESPECT THE PHILIPPINE CULTURE, CUSTOM, AND TRADITION,..THAT THE FAMILY ARE THE TRUE HEIRS TO CONTINUE THE LEGACY !


----------



## Sir_Yantok

I think you guys are giving way too much credit to Hartman (Mr. 6th degree black belt in arnis) So what if he is the highest ranked in Modern Arnis? Let me rephrase that. So what if he is the highest ranked in Modern Arnis in the "US"? We should all consider where the art came from. From a ruthless bloodthirsty warrior society in which your skills are tested through where life and death are to be considered. Now from my perspective, America today isn't anything like that, thankfully. Hardly anyone ever issues challenge matches, except some of the Filipinos. Tournament condition comes nowhere near a mortal challenge match. Now Im not saying everyone should issue challenge matches here and there, because those are also full of pride and ego. However I do notice that people tend to focus more on the aesthetic part of the art, I mean, how can you ever use "Tapi-Tapi" in a real-life street fighting condition where your opponent wont honorably fight you.
Most often, you can't. One should consider that the aim of Modern Arnis, like any other martial art, is to provide knowledge for those unable to defend themselves, to be able to defend themselves. Tapi tapi is just basically a set of parrying coordinated techniques.

To Hartman, the fact that the Modern Arnis masters of the Philippines "supposedly" would have knowledge of the original art, does't mean it is inferior (Im sorry to say but that is what you are trying to make it sound). Sorry to tell you but, YES there are people of HIGHER rank than you in Modern Arnis, and we all know its not one of these MOTT and IMAF practitioners. Im sorry to say it too but I bet they can kick your posterior, in teaching and combat. But that doesn't mean your not one of the greatest arnisadors IN AMERICA, I think youre better than Jeff Delaney. A question though, have you ever been to the Philippines? Has anybody ever challenged your knowledge through full contact combat? I'd really like to know.

Now about evolution, it doesnt mean that the art has evolved through GM Presas and his recent students that it would be a better version than the original art. I mean just look at what they are serving, Tapi Tapi for breakfast, lunch and dinner? Tapi Tapi is a wonderful set of techniques to learn, but it alone aint just gonna cut it on a street brawl. C'mon now Timmy, you complain more than anyone that GM Presas hands out belts like lolipops, why should you even give any credit as to what the Art has turned to then? Dont sell yourself too high Timmy, and dont sell the original style too short too. Its all relative, Presas Family, MOTT, WMAA, IMAF, The Art of tapi-tapi, the art of taking my hard-earned money, whatever... etc. etc. etc....








> WHAT?????


----------



## Bob Hubbard

DPresas:

Regarding your refering everyone to the modernarnis.com website - The website does not have any content we can see other than the letter which was sent out by Ms. Harwood.  When will that be updated to reflect the information you refer to?

Also in regards to modernarnis.com - the site is owned by Ms. Harwood.  She can do whatever she wishes with the site at any time.  If she decides to take it down, she can.  And you can not stop her any more than the IMAF could stop her from evicting them from it.  For your own protection, have it transfered into your organizations name.  Just a friendly suggestion.    Respect for family history, etc has nothing to do with it. Just an understanding of the way domain issues are resolved. 

Also, this quote from there "We welcome you to join this top-notch, no politics organization.  Out of gratitude for your faithfulness to the late GM Remy Amador Presas, all IMAF members will receive a one-year free membership in MARPPIO.  Information will be posted on the website soon." can be taken in a few ways.  1- is as a snub to the WMAA people. 2- that MARPPIO is the replacement organization to the IMAF.  Think about it.  You have -their- web site, and are offering a -free- membership to -only- IMAF members.  This implies that MARPPIO is the successor organization to the IMAF.

To both DPresas and Sir Yantok - Who are these higher ranked Arnis black belts?  I know they are out there.  But I don't know who they are.  In regards to Modern Arnis, I see 3 names everywhere.  GM Remy A Presas, Tim Hartman and Jeff Delany.  Can y'all point me at some 3rd party info on these folks?  (magazine articles  or books maybe? Danke )


Board usage (and this goes for everyone) Please don't use all caps.  It is considered shouting.  If you are trying to accent a point, try changing the color(unless you did intend to represent shouting, which is ok)  (No offence folks, but I like to think we're better than AOL) 
Its too early in the morning for me to write more.


----------



## Sir_Yantok

I have no affiliation whatever with DPresas, and I mean no disrespect to you or anyone, but being recently in the Philippines, I had the chance to meet some of them in a tournament. I think at least one of them was included in the original Modern Arnis book. Out of respect to DPresas, I'd prefer that he mention them himself, or most probably he would sometime later, perhaps in their website. Cmon now, how can you even put Jeff Delaney in the likes of GM Presas, that's not right. I'd hate to say this but it seems that most exponents of Modern Arnis are vaguely aware of fully qualified intructors in the Philippines, I mean, that is where the art was created. My suggestion, try visiting the Phils to learn Arnis, then use all that knowledge against the Abusayyaf.

:flame:                                                               :flame:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Sir Yantok,:cuss: 
Let's get something straight! My name is Datu Hartman, Mr Hartman, Guro Hartman, Renegade, Yo Dirt Bag or Tim. Only three people call me Timmy!
1. Remy Sr.
2. My Grandfather
3. Dr. Gyi

This is a friendly warning, you won't like the pissy one. I must go off to my school but I will be back!
:soapbox: :samurai: :uzi: :flame: :armed:

P.S. Every time I told Remy I wanted to go to the Phillipines to go train and learn more about the culture he would tell me that I could learn about the culture, but the good FMAers already move to the states! Food for thought.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Sir Yantok,
  Wasn't putting JD in the same class as the GM, just saying his name has high visibility.

Speaking of Mr. Delany...he was sent a personal invitation recently to join this forum.  To my knowledge, neither he nor any other member of the IMAF have to date.

I've heard that alot of the Fillipino MA students are intense. (not meant in a bad way).  If I had the time to take a few months off from work, I would probably do that.  Right now, not enough free time for me to do that. 

Course, no offence to the FMA/MA crowd, but if I had 6 months training time, I'd go learn Kenjitsu...what can I say, I like swords. 


offtopic
Renegade likes the smilies...is it just me or does the flame thrower one's flame imply an extended arm with 1 finger up? 
/off topic


----------



## Cthulhu

I'd like to back Renegade's statement that most of the good FMAers are in the U.S.  Let me rephrase that by saying most of the well known FMAers moved to the U.S., and this includes, but is not limited to:

Jack Santos
Juan Lacoste
Angel Cabales
Floro Villabre

etc, etc, etc.

As far as their being people with rank higher than Mr. Hartman, he himself did indicate that though there may be people holding higher rank in _Modern_ Arnis, they are apparently not active.

Cthulhu
 stickin' his nose where it don't belong


----------



## Bob Hubbard

"Active" may be a key word here.

How active were these individuals?  I mean, I think theres a difference between earning a blackbelt and not really keeping up to date verses activly training for a decade or 4.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Something else just occured to me....has probably been mentioned, but i missed it....

and its back to the original question that started this thread...

How can Jeff Delany call himself "Grandmaster when a GM is usually 10th degree and he is not?

Also, I thought his title was"CO-grandmaster" with Dr. Schea (spelling maybe wrong here).

What happened to the "CO" part, and wheres the other "CO-GM"?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Just an FYI for everyone - 
I closed the other 2 threads on this forum discussing the topic of Modern Arnis Succession, etc.  Please confine the talk of the "Civil War" to this thread.

This way, we can return the rest of the MA forum to talk of techniques, tours, etc.

Thank you. 

Kaith.
:asian:


----------



## IFAJKD

I think any serious FMA believes that all the great Instructors came to the US. There have been some who have returned but they still came back here. You don't have to go to tibet to learn to master meditation. This is not obviously the case for just FMA. The Gracies, as well as others are here too. The economy can support them or they have left for a better life or they are political refugees. I think it needs to be said that there are only a handfull of people responsible for us being able to train FMA in the first place. Dan Inosanto being one of them.  FMA could never be as lost as it was but if we don't focus on what matters then many aspects could certainly be lost again. We again must thank others for their contribution and move on. Renegades statements and background allow others to do just that. some will listen others will not. oh well


----------



## GouRonin

All I can go on is that Hartman has been the only Modern Arnis guy I have ever been with in a stripper bar owned by hell's angels when the **** is by the fan.

I can tell you this. I wasn't worried about that section of my back that he had covered.

That's what I have to go on. If Delany, or the MOTT's or the IMAF or anyone else wants to go with me to a stripper bar please contact me. I will buy the first round.
 :cheers:


----------



## Brian Johns

<<<<Something else just occured to me....has probably been mentioned, but i missed it.... 
and its back to the original question that started this thread... 
How can Jeff Delany call himself "Grandmaster when a GM is usually 10th degree and he is not? 
Also, I thought his title was"CO-grandmaster" with Dr. Schea (spelling maybe wrong here). 
What happened to the "CO" part, and wheres the other "CO-GM"?>>>>>

Here's what I know:

The public story, at least through the press release on the IMAF shortly after the Professor retired from teaching, was that Dr. Schea and Jeff Delaney were appointed as Co Grandmasters and Co- Successors for the art of Modern Arnis. The IMAF web page reflected this for several months. In recent months, it appears that Delaney has unilaterally begun calling himself the Grandmaster and without any reference to Dr. Schea. See Black Belt Magazine advertisements and the IMAF web page.  Unfortunately, Delaney appears to have made these moves even while Remy was still alive. Dr. Schea, being an Indonesian Chinese and a traditional guy (from what I understand) chose not to do anything out of respect for Prof Presas while he was still alive. 

Behind the scenes, I understand there's another side  to the "Co grandmaster" and "co successor" story. I've heard something which could potentially be explosive. However, I think that it would entirely inappropriate to state what I've heard as I feel that this story is unverifiable. I don't even know if it's true. 

However, from what I understand, changes are in the making and will be announced over the next weekend with respect to the other 6 MOTTS and that they may be announced by Dr. Schea.  To be frank, I don't have any specifics. However, the changes might be deduced just from looking at Delaney's web page. He has named several people to the IMAF Board of Directors. He has named himself Chairman of the IMAF, Michael Bates as the Executive Director, Lisa McManus as the Membership Director, Edgar Cordova as the Treasurer and Jamil Tarkhani (of Germany) as the International Director. The Curriculum Director is blank. Neither Dr. Schea nor the rest of the MOTTS are included in this Board. From this, one can deduce that a break has occurred between Delaney and the rest of the MOTTs. I think that we will hear something this weekend which will confirm this. The specifics ? I don't know. The general outline is pretty obvious.

For whatever it's worth, I've worked with Dr. Schea and he has A LOT more to offer than Delaney has. Randi  has an extensive martial arts background and has been in Modern Arnis for many years. 

As to how one can be a 5th degree and a Grandmaster, that question is better answered by Delaney himself. I can't see how one can reconcile being a 5th degree and a Grandmaster at the same time. I just can't. I cannot answer that question. That is the $64,000 question.

Woo !!!:shrug:


----------



## Brian Johns

I ain't going into no stripper bar to watch Hartman....... but the major gyrating babes in there !!:rofl:


----------



## bloodwood

gou got it right. what it all boils down to is, if you had to go into battle who would you take with you!!!


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Very interesting...The next few weeks are looking to be revolutionary, me thinks...

We've heard for Tim Hartman...We've heard from the Presas family....still no identifiable IMAF or MOTT presence here....and the IMAF -was- sent an invite..

I feel snubbed.  :shrug:  


possible conversation at a future event....

Student - "Grandmaster, can you help me?  I'm struggling with this technique, Trapping Hands.  Can you help me?"

Der Wunder GM - "Trapping hands?  Whats that?"

Student - "Its, umm, a white belt technique.  You don't know it?"

:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *How can Jeff Delany call himself "Grandmaster when a GM is usually 10th degree and he is not?
> *



There's an interesting precedent in traditional Japanese systems, where a head of a system might die when his child and heir was still a low-ranking instructor. (Many of these systems don't use belt rankings but rather a series of licenses, but the idea applies to either situation.) The child is indeed the new head of the system in terms of running the organization, setting the direction, and so on, but continues to work his way up to the highest rank by testing under the highest ranking instructors. It happens all the time; I expected it to happen with Small-Circle Ju-Jitsu but Prof. Jay took another approach. So, I accept that Mr. Delaney is the head of Modern Arnis along with Dr. Schea, though that co-headship appears likely to change soon. This is not inconsistent with his rank. While I also tend to equate "Grandmaster" with "Head of System," that is not the only way that it is used, and Prof. Presas did use this term to describe Mr. Delaney and Dr. Schea.

Of course, Remy Presas himself always preferred to be addressed and described as Professor, not Grandmaster.

Similarly, if one wants to start one's own art then traditionally one would get the endorsement of four (or so) other respected heads of systems. These are typically 10th degree black belts if belt rankings are used, but again headship of the system is separate from belt ranking in general--"above and beyond rank," one might say. I doubt one would use a head of system who was not of appropriately high rank of course.

On a slightly different note I'd like to point out that there are precedents for one art having different organizations with different heads. One example is Goju-Ryu, divided into Shobukan, Shoreikan, etc. See for example:
http://gojuryu.net/Index/lineage.html
As I look at the IMAF, MARPPIO, the other break-away groups, and the prospect of more to come as the situation within the IMAF is resolved, I think of this. Is there anything so wrong with it? I'd prefer things otherwise but several groups carrying on their vision of Prof. Presas' art, as I assume will happen with Small-Circle Ju-Jitsu and as happened with Kanryo Higaonna's and Chojun Miyagi's Goju-Ryu.

One other side note: I'd like to correct a statement made by Mr. Hartman. Without meaning to put myself in the august company of the other gentleman whom he cited, it is nonetheless the case that I also call him "Timmy".


----------



## Sir_Yantok

You might be right in the Grandmaster Presas preferring to be called Professor, but I truly, truly doubt that he would call anyone co-grandmaster or grandmaster for that fact, he is the one, the real deal, the emancipator, the originator, the innovator, and everything else, if for any fact, he is the REAL DATU OF ARNIS, and everything else is a cheap 5 cent photocopycat. For all your knowledge, Grandmastery of anything means the supreme understanding and execution of specific area, again I stress that nowhere in the Press Release is co-grandmaster mentioned, and personally I don't give too much credit for that piece of crap, as it was written by Randy Schea, a "SUCCESSOR", obviously identifying a huge conflict of interest, I hardly think that the Professor in what was his condition truly approved such a public statement, and even if his will has even read to him correctly!! Schea and Delaney, they're all made from the same dungpile, who came as vultures to pick as much as they can from a dying man's altered consciousness, I give no condolence from those kinds of pretenders and rogues. 



> Can You Dig It, Sucka?
> ------Booker T, circa July 2001---------


:boing2:             :boing2:             :boing2:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Yantok,
  You say that you have not affiliation with the Presas' yet you side with them every time. You also seem to have gotten way too personal. You need to chill out. If you want some one to listen give some logical reasons. Call people a dungpile or a cheap 5 cent photocopycat. By the way is this Carlos I'm hearing from? All the wrestling quotes make me think that it's him.
:shrug:


----------



## sinawali

blue 

In regards to the future of Modern Arnis, I have seen many different attitudes at the Professors camps and seminars.. some good, some bad. Our duty to our teacher is to personally perfect our technique and continue to grow mentally, physically and spriritually.

Too much time is being spent on who is who, or "Master vs Grandmaster". Information is information, absorb it from everyone and everything.

Keep his dedication to us alive by always remembering to just relax and let things flow, no infighting, he gave far too much to us all to let it all slip away.

peace to all.


sinawali


----------



## IFAJKD

My perspective from a JKD person is that what matters is skill and ullness in combat. If Mr. Hartmans has such skill is all I would are about when seeking him out to train. What can he offer me or my students in this situation?????It's all that matters to me. Where he sits politically or where others think he should be is moot to me. Politics have destroyed martial arts as much as it has helped it. Sounds like he has payed his dues, has had respect from many others and I hope that he can get by the conflict and follow the path he believes he needs to. Dan has done this much to the criticism of others who were not there, didn't understand and were readers of magazines and thought they should have an opinion. Jealously and lack of understanding that comes only from being there with the main people at that time can create some #$^%#@ up attitudes. Renegade......stand strong through this. People will eventually move on and it will sort out


----------



## Mao

Hey Gatorade,
 TIMMY, TIMMY, TIMMY.....haaa:boing2: 

I just got off duty and am feeling a little punchy.  Ya know, in the end none of this political stuff is going to change how I do things, my school, my students, myself and, most importantly, my family.  It's all just pebbles and sand.  I may vent, offer an opinion, or call someones bluff but it really doesn't matter much.  God will put people where He wants them and nobody can change that.  It is fun watching the show, though.  Sometimes it's fun to participate.  I just want to do what is right. I'd like to have fun too................TIMMY, TIMMY, TIMMY.....
As Whoopass puts it, WHOOO!:samurai:


----------



## Sir_Yantok

My loyalty in Modern Arnis lies with Remy Presas, no one else, and specially no one else who would declare themselves Grandmaster. I am Filipino and I feel very disrespected where this art is handed to. You might have no idea how modern arnis exponents in the Philippines might feel about Remy Presas' decision. As for now, I would support the Presas clan because they are Filipino, although that may change in the future, I'm still very glad that they have come in the scene. Yes, I do watch wrestling, although I don't have any idea who you're talking about.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Sir_Yantok,
  A question.  "I feel very disrespected where this art is handed to. "  How so?

Due to the political infighting?  That the "successorship" for MA was supposedly handed to a non-fillipino?  

"You might have no idea how modern arnis exponents in the Philippines might feel about Remy Presas' decision. "

I would assume some would be ok with it, while others for various reasons would not be.

I ask, only to clarify.

Thank you.


----------



## sinawali

In response to the post regarding that Modern Arnis be passed only to a Filipino...,

Talent is talent, and that is all that should be noticed. 

As Modern Arnis has its roots in many different systems, does that mean that a "karate' type punch in Modern Arnis must be shown by a Japanese intructor?, then passed back to the lead Filipino instructor to show De Cadena or Abanico?, then back to a Capoeria instructor from Brazil if a executed kick looks like it comes from a ginga instead of a triangle formation??? 

There is way too much fighting going on all over the world, too much racism everywhere...look at talent, not skin color, race or religion.

Peace.

Sinawali


----------



## Mao

Follow them because they're "filipino" ?  Isn't that a bit like saying follow Hitler because your German, or follow Bin-Ladin because your middle eastern?  Simply being Filipino does not make one better at a filipino style.  One of my students is Indonesian. Does that mean that his silat should be awesome?  He knows none.  Another student is a lawyer.  Does tha mean............well.....I'll leave that one alone. Get the point?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Mao,
  Watch the language.....I'm alergic to the "L" word.


----------



## Mao

And it pained me to say it...:asian:


----------



## Brian Johns

Prof Presas was fond of saying "Holy Cow" to anything that was said or done. It was oftentimes hilarious to hear him say "Holy Cow" in his Filipino accent. In reading Yantok's post, I said to myself "Holy Cow" in a pseudo Remy voice for the reason that the assertions by Yantok is just ridiculous. As one person said, talent cuts across all racial or ethnic groups. What if it was an Irish firefighter who displayed the most talent ?   Or what if it was WhoopAss ?

In all seriousness, I have seen some very talented non Filipinos in Modern Arnis and I could care less who I learn from. I could give a flying crud whether the head of the style or the instructor was Filipino. Do you see any Americans managers in Japanese professional baseball ? Nah. 

:uzi: :flame: :uzi: :flame: :uzi: :flame: :flame: :flame:


----------



## Icepick

Watch it Moo!  

:uzi:


----------



## Black Grass

Renegade wrote:

P.S. Every time I told Remy I wanted to go to the Phillipines to go train and learn more about the culture he would tell me that I could learn about the culture, but the good FMAers already move to the states! Food for thought.

Well the Prof. was plan wrong on this one. There was and are still great FMAers in the RP (Republic of the Phil.). One name that jumps to mind is Tatang Illustrisimo probably one of the most feared GMs in our time. He lived in the RP for the most part until his death in 97. There was a reason that Edgar Suilte brought his students to the RP until his death in 97. Because there is still lots of arnis to learn is the RP.

However, just because you live in the RP (or for that matter are a pinoy) doesn't not mean you are better or know more about the arts than someone in the US. You don't have to go to the RP to be a great arnisador. There are lots of great resources here.

In regards to modern arnis and its development, now I haven't been involved in modern arnis for several years so I don't have a "side". Actually, I think the last time I was involved was at a Michigan camp where Renegade got his 5th Lakan. (And just for the record Renegade was impressive). However, what turned me off to Modern Arnis was some of the other black belts I saw. They could do the traps and tapi-tapi, but there basics were terrible. They couldn't break through paper with there #1. Yet some walked around like they were undefeated masters from the RP. (As a side bar Renegade, although he might come off as arrogant in his posts here was not like this at all. We called simply called him Tim and he showed you respect regardless of rank.) 

Prof. did grant rank based on things other than skill, however it was his art so he could do as he pleased. Its just unfortunate that this makes one question automatically all modern arnis players skill. 

So what's my point? The art of modern arnis may have changed and developed but that does not necessarily mean its a better art then 20 yrs ago  and those who learned it in its current incarnation today are better than those who learn it 20 yrs. ago.

Now back to work,

Vince
Black Grass


----------



## Sir_Yantok

Here we go. I know that statement might infuriate a lot of you, but no Filipino was included in the sucession of this gem of our culture, and if you're a filipino I think you might feel a little bit left out.


----------



## Brian Johns

<<<Here we go. I know that statement might infuriate a lot of you, but no Filipino was included in the sucession of this gem of our culture, and if you're a filipino I think you might feel a little bit left out.>>>>

WAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!!!!! I'm feeling left out because the Commissioner of Japanese baseball is Japanese. To use your crazy assed logic, since Americans invented baseball, the Commissioner of Japanese baseball should be American....baseball is a gem of our culture blah blah blah. But no, the Commissioner of Japanese baseball IS Japanese.

My point ? It's irrelevant what race or ethnic group should be included in the succession of Modern Arnis. If Prof Presas had wanted Filipinos in the succession, he would have done so. I know what your riposte is going to be......"but he probably wasn't thinking clearly and was manipulated etc etc." Let me assure you that I visited him earlier this year and he was very very lucid and very aware of what was going on. He talked about the people involved in Modern Arnis and about his past.  Quite simply, the Professor made his choices. 

If you want to join an Arnis group headed by a Filipino, that's your right. But don't count out the excellence of many  FMA players (and those not necessarily in Modern Arnis). I've heard folks complain about Inosanto because he's never visited the RP. How absurd.

WOOOO!!!



:flame: :flame:


----------



## DWright

I can't believe the mess that has been made out of the IMAF. 
I paid for a membership, and haven't seen that it helps my group.

Tim Hartman and his organization have helped us put together some guidelines for our school,  and has even stopped by (over 3000 miles from NY) to meet us.

We know who will be promoting the Art when the dust settles, no matter what the IMAF does.


----------



## Sir_Yantok

I don't think I stated in any way that because you are not Filipino that you cannot excel in Arnis. Please contain yourself. Please do not distort what I said. My opinion is mine, and I could care less if you think the commissioner of Japanese baseball should be american, and your assurance is doubtful, because just as what Tim Hartman said,  it is what the Professor stated in public that he often meant. Besides, its not like every american watches japanese baseball when there's Barry Bonds.


WOOOOOO!!!!!!!!


----------



## Sir_Yantok

P.S.  Can anybody tell me if Delaney deserved to be named Successor?


----------



## Keil Randor

Sheesh....this is a long one.  You folks are an "interesting" group....

I read the last dozen posts a few times...just to be sure I got things straight...I think.

Having reread things a bit that Sir_Yantok's point seems to be that out of the 2 individuals supposedly named "co-successor" and the group set up as a steering commitee, there wasn't a Fillipino influence.

Looked at another way, perhaps it can be said that GM Presas intended that the best of his current, high ranked, active students would work together as a group to guide the art until such time as a leader would arrise and become the next true grandmaster.  That may be the reason for a co-SUCCESSORSHIP + a commitee.  It seems like due to political manipulations behind the scenes that Mr. Hartman was "worked" out of this arrangement.  How else can a 3rd, I'm sorry, a "5th" suddenly outrank a 6th?  Opps, I'm sorry, he wasn't a "5th", just had a "5th".  

It is only after GM Presas death that the vultures seem to come out and all want a piece for themselves.

:soapbox:
It's like a bloody soap opera...sheesh.

The Girlfriend, who wants her cut...and See what I do for "The Family" -  I don't know you, and I don't care to...I've already known someone who sounds like a twin.

The Family - Who has the "Name", but hasn't really seemed to do much else for years.  (You folks are going to carry the art forward?  How many hours have you spent training, sweating, bleeding?)  What rank are all of you?  Did you earn it, or buy it nice and cheep at the supply store?

The Ego-Case - That would be Mr. Delany - Damn but your website is sooo about "You".  I haven't seen that much Ego stroking in a long time.  Got a "Small" problem there Jeffy?

The "Tag-A-Longs" - You know who you all are...you're the ones that will switch sides in a minute, depending on who will kiss your asses the best....or talk out of both sides of your **** at once.


Damn the whole bunch of you....the only ones who "Get It" are those who understand...

Modern Arnis is more than Remy A. Presas...and it WAS Remy A. Presas.  He wanted the art to continue, but didn't plan for the succession right.  Maybe it was a blind spot, in that he -TRUSTED- his -BEST- to carry on without being a group of greedy little children.

Poor Remy....he was wrong.

Now you all fight over "Don't forget the name...." and "Look at me, I'm the real successor...it says so right here...." and "Its the Blood".

Sheesh...kneepads, blood, purity...blah blah blah.  

90% of this isn't about Remy, or Modern Arnis...its about FN Greed.

Sheesh......some days, it's simply not worth chewing through the straps....BAH!


*[ MOD EDIT] Keil, watch it....this is your -ONLY- warning... [ /MOD EDIT] - Kaith *


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Despite Mr. Randors little rant above....is the point he started with valid?  Were there any Fillipinos on the steering commitee?


On an aside, I see from checking the user logs that we now have several WMAA and MARPPIO members.  Welcome. 

Questions:

-Who to lead?  I think a leader will emerge..be it MARPPIO, or the WMAA, or someone else.  I do not know if the one will be Fillipino, but I think we know they will be "That Good".

-Jeff Delany - No idea.  From what I've heard (which when you add $1.40 it will get ya a coke at McD) , the answer is no.  But, I'm not the one to get a qualified answer.

-The "Race" question - Not valid here as I see every system 'borrowing' from the others.  Example - "Trapping Hands".  I did the exact same thing step-by-step when taking JKD, WingChung, Kenpo (parker) and yes, even Tai Chi (though that one was in sloooow motion)   The move is the same, just the name has been changed, to confuse the hell outta me...."Perpetual White Belt" is sooo fitting now.  


:rofl: 

Now play nice....:samurai:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Yantok,

I agree with on a few issues and when it comes to the MOTTs I don't care for most of them, but how dare you turn this into a racial issue! YOU TWO-BIT PIECE OF SH*T!!!!!!!!! :soapbox: 
What happened to "All Men {or Women} are Created Equal"? I want to know who you are. It is so easy to hide behind a computer and cause trouble! Do you have the "BALLS" to let everyone know who you are and be held accountable for your actions?  I sent out e-mail about the IMAF that was controversial at the least.  After which I show up to the 2001 Michigan camp. Some people avoided me and some people started whispering sh*t. None of the people I mentioned in the mail had the guts to come up and tell me that they had a problem with me. If they had I would have respected their opinion and would've sucked it up knowing that I would probably get this reaction. 

Everyone know who I am! So who are you?
:uzi: :nuke: :flame: :armed: :samurai:


----------



## DPRESAS

Did it take you that long to think those words over . O' my you must be really one of a kind.  you are the type of person that makes the art  go bad!!!! I really feel sory for you . we're not here to take over anything and Tim Hartman knows that . but if you really want to find out how good We Are come see US Please IN FULL CONTACT ARNIS  ONLY . you'll see how a Presas moves , you migth learn something new . BY THE WAY HOW MANY SEMENARS DID YOU GO BEFORE YOU GOT YOUR BLACK-BELT 5 TO 10 HUH !!!!! MUST BE REALLY EASY . JUST GO TO A SEMINAR GET A BELT . ARE YOU AWERE  THAT IT SHOULD TAKE YOU 10 YEARS TO REACH BLACK OR 1ST DAN AND FOR EVERYONES INFO WE DID GO TO HIS SEMINAR. HE NEVER WANTED US TO TELL OUR REALLY LAST NAMES. NOW WE KNOW WHY , HE DID NOT WANT US TO SAY OUR REALLY LAST NAMES . PERSON'S LIKE YOU JUDGE SO EASY YOU DONT EVEN KNOW US , ONLY A HAND PICKED OF PERSONS REALLY KNEW OUR  FATHER . SO DONT SPEAK FOR HIM . THERE ARE MANY THINGS ABOUT OUR FAMILY AND HIM  THAT YOU DONT .YOU WANT TO FIND OUT THE TRUTH SEE ME OR ASK TIM FOR MY NO. HE KNOWS IT , IT DOSE NOT MATTER WHO LEADS  IF YOUR FILIFINO OR AMERICAN WHAT  MATTERS IS YOUR LOVE FOR THE ART .CALL ME WILL TALK OR SPAR ,HOW EVER YOU WANT

                                                              DPRESAS
                                                            MARPPIO/USMC


----------



## Cthulhu

I think it would be advisable that you specify which K.R. you are referring to, as there are two of them with those initials posting in this thread.

Just some advice.  Don't want your message to go to the wrong person.

Cthulhu

*[Whoops.  Looks like you made the change before my post went up.]*


----------



## sinawali

I want to add a point regarding Filipino's in Modern Arnis. It seems ( from my viewpoint only) that Remy ( no disrespect to the term "Professor", I always called him Remy) was not looked at the same as other instructors from the Philippines, his art was looked at as weak. That was the beauty of Remy, he could care less, the proof ( this is corny) was in the pudding when it came down to it.

Yes, some black belts in Modern Arnis could use to look a little deeper into the foundation of thier art and stop looking at belt color. Many do not hold the same standards or understanding of the art. If thier homes where build upon the same structure as thier understanding of Modern Arnis,
I would not feel safe in a windstorm. I have seen many act like "sandbox" martial artists where they say "oh. I got you up before you got me"...stagnation , not growth. 

Could it be ( my opinion only) that many Filipinos looked at Remy as a "secondary" teacher because he taught so many non Filipinos and passed the chance to train under him ? and now when he is gone, we truly see what the world martial arts community has lost?


Peace


Sinawali


----------



## DPRESAS

I agree with when you said belt  should not matter, did you know that in the old days my father never had a belt ? what he always said is belts are for show OFF only ,what matters the most is your skill and the love for the art . see there so many that recived black in MA that you can go to 3 to 5 seminar's and you'll get it ,now there are some exception but  not  a whole lot  I HAVE SEEN THIS HAPPEND IN SEMENARS. there are so many that cliam they knew GM presas , yet they dont even know about us . our father was very PROTECTIVE OF US . now i can see why . for your question ma in the phil loved him infact there were many that came  for his funeral in the phil . if you like I'll e-mail you some PIC.
there were a lot of gm that came from differnt styles of arnis . they said plenty of kind words for our fahter and the family.


DPRESAS

                                                                       :asian:


----------



## Keil Randor

To DPRESAS:
I touched a nerve there huh?  (rereads post) Gee, Did I attack you?  No, I questioned the families credentials....asked if ya earned it by time in, or if you got it in a cracker jack box.  If you really have the abilities, it will show through on your tour.   See, the reason I ask is I've only heard of 2 Presas's in regards to the martial arts world.  Remy and Ernesto.  (checks records), nope I don't see your name there.  That implies a few things....1 is you aint nobody.  2 is you haven't destinguished yourself yet.  Note I say yet.  You got a great name....are you worthy of it?  

See, I didn't attack you.  I probed.  I drew you out. Its psychology sport.  You're right, I didn't know GM Presas.  I've only got the word of those who have to go on.  I hear alot of good things.  I haven't heard a single bad thing about him.

See, it bothers me when a group of self serving, greedy  ego maniac SOB's come out and want to lay claim to the dynasy of a great master.  Those who can talk the talk, not walk the walk.

Beating my sorry *** ain't gonna prove anything...except if you like being the bottom in a prison gang-bang.  See, in my country, its called assault and battery, and you get jail time.  Even if I attack you, and you do it in self defence, theres still a good chance you serve time.  Sorry charlie....I aint stupid enough to dance with someone who would do me harm....My qualifications?  I'm sorry, you misunderstand.  I have no rank, hold no title, have minimal skills.  I train a few times a month, with friends.  I will never be in the same league as most here.

You can take it personally, or you can understand where I'm coming from.

Did the vulture comment hurt?  Why?  Are you truely out to further your fathers art and memory, or just line your pants with the cash you can ring out of it?  If you're out to further the art and his memory, then you would see I wasn't shooting at you, but at the SOB's who fall into number 2.

The vultures.  The backstabbers.  The SOB's who are soo worried about what will be left for them, that they will destroy that which Remy built.

And if you're 1 of those....well.... then you can go to hell.  And keep the responce public.  I hate PM threats.

In the mean time sir, I look forward to seeing how good your skills really are.  Not by you kicking my *** (which is very easily done, I must add.  It is no true demostration of skill), but by you leading and teaching.

Mr. Presas, I wish you, and your organization all the best.  You have taken the time to respond and answer the questions I posed.  Ms. Harwood and Mr. Delany have not.  For that, I thank you, and am sorry you misunderstood my intentions.  

Take this as an apology, and explaination or an attack.  I care not which.

Goodday to you all.
:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

:soapbox:
Keils taking a little vacation.....please note the "Banned User" status by his name....

Keep the "personal" attacks, the racial crap and the flat out Flames out of my bloody forums!

I said it before, I'll say it 1 last time.... think twice before you hit that post button folks.

:soapbox:


----------



## Mao

Hey Whoopass, I believe that the "Irish Firefighter" should be king af all. He's Irish and a Friefighter and you can't get any better than that!! 
Hey Toothpick, I mean Icepick, it's MAO.............that's M - A - O.......I thought lawyers never made mistakes.
luv ya' K.B.!!!!!!!!!!!!
As for Modern Arnis and the political venue a the moment, I'm gonna get some popcorn and enjoy the show.  Remy had a will. Remy put certain people in certain positions. It aint over yet and when it is not much will have changed. The good people will still be good, the weenies will still be weenies. Those who respect you will train with you. Respect is an earned thing.  Dancing around and crying about the state of things will do little to earn you any respect from anyone. Remy told me many times "Just do your work and nevermind the barking dogs". I hear alot of barking, howling, snarling and butt sniffing going on. I will have more to say after this weekend.   :samurai: :armed:


----------



## bloodwood

It would appear that Tim Hartman and the Presas family are on good terms and headed in the right direction. And that direction would be one of mutual coexistence and respect for other. Sharing knowledge of the Professor's art is what it's all about. If the Presas family bring new material to the table, or just put a new spin on what we're doing now, that's GREAT. I can't wait to see what they got. Old dogs can learn new tricks, and if you let those tricks bypass you, shame on you.

So it seems we're half way there. WMAA + MARPPIO + (waiting to see what the MOTTS do). JD and co. look to be a group of one trying to hang on, and will either be absorbed or just fade away for lack of support. Working together will keep all healthy and wiser.

GO WITH the FLOW


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Hmm....now theres a thought..... I'm making a new thread for it though....  http://martialtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=196


----------



## arnisador

I was at the bookstore this evening and to my surprise the December issue of Black Belt was already on the stands. There was a letter to the editor from George and Kim Dillman concerning Prof. Presas' passing, and Mr. Delaney was given a full page for a tribute. It was appropriately focused on the Professor and was tasetfully done, though not particularly well-written or memorable. Mr. Delaney did not appear to be engaging in any of the self-promotion of which he has been accused recently.

I don't subscribe to Black Belt--had there been an announcement in it prior to this issue, or was this the first issue they could get one into?


----------



## LabanB

Hi Keith (OK, so he's banned, my reply is still relevant!),

   I have read that in the early days of the formation of Modern Arnis, the other brother, Roberto, played a role. He dropped out of the scene fairly early on (don't know why).

   So its possible that there are a whole truck of Presas's (Preses? ;-) ) we know little or nothing about.

Bill Lowery


----------



## Bob Hubbard

It's Keil thats banned, not Keith.  

Its possible.  I mean, who knows the full family list of most martial arts masters?


----------



## LabanB

Hi Keith,

   Oops, sorry. But the rest is accurate ;-)

Bill


----------



## Cthulhu

It's Kaith, not Keith  

Cthulhu


----------



## LabanB

Does anyone get the feeling, I'm not totally focussed on this discussion? ;-)

Bill

PS, Sorry Kaith (is this a male name? No insult intended but I'm not familiar with it, hence the error).

Bill


----------



## Bob Hubbard

You mean you can't tell from the highly accurate picture?  :rofl:

The names Klingon.  

Seriously, male...last time I checked, anyway.   

As to focus...who  right now?


----------



## arnisador

The background has changed at http://www.modernarnis.com/ but still no information ("Under Construction"). I'm looking forward to hearing more about this organization. Mr. Presas, your posts here have been appreciated. I certainly wish you luck.

The multifurcation of Modern Arnis is not over yet. The IMAF would have me believe my rank is expired because I'm not paying them. Luckily, the WMAA (of which I am a member) does not appear to be concerned about this.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Arnisadore et al,

You state that you have lost your rank due to the
fact that you have not sent any membership monies
into the IMAF.

I am curious, how many people are in this 
situation. I mean they have rank, with 
certificates signed by Remy A. Presas, but have
not paid the right due fee to the IMAF. Does this
mean they have lost the right to teach? I mean
I have heard that some of the certificates from
the IMAF have an experation date. Can knowledge
truely have an experation date? ALso, what if 
there are other certifiactes without an experation
date. Does this mean that they are no longer
valid?

Just some questions I pose to the the board.

Thanks

Rich

:asian:


----------



## sinawali

I am wondering, upon reading the latest emails, was exactly "teaching" mean?  

I have encountered numerous "instructors" at Remy's camps/seminars. Some  good, some not so good. Over the years, I have sat back watched, taught ( the ones who were the teachers) all in a respectful even tone and watched "beginners" turn to "masters" in a 2-4 year period.

All the while smiling, being silent and helping anyone and everyone with a question, or giving them advise on footwork, movement, and how the whole body is involved in Modern Arnis. I have spent some very special moments alone with Remy and now with his passing on, I just read that you are not allowed to teach unless you pay for rights from organization(s)?

I am confused ( with deep repsect to all involved)
for those who have truly practiced, developed, and have remained silent over these long years, the ones who have paid for all the knowledge at the camps, seminars...now have to pay again for the right to teach?  I do not teach, but I am wondering...what about the Modern Arnisadors that have not come to the front of the line? the ones who prefered to be in the background and simply perfect themselves?

Remy would always say" Learn from everyone and everything"...and in this time of need, if I am asked by anyone to show them techniques to save thier life, I would be proud to say where they came from...but does that mean I am teaching???


Sinawali


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Arnisadore et al,
> 
> You state that you have lost your rank due to the
> fact that you have not sent any membership monies
> into the IMAF.*



No--I stated that that is what the IMAF would like me to believe, if I understand their website correctly (under "Ranking"). I am of the same thinking as Mr. Hartman, namely, that my rank came directly from Prof. Presas and my certificate of rank does not have an experiation date. (I believe that I have Mr. Hartman's position correctly but I am sure that he will correct me if I am mistaken.) I do not consider my rank to have changed. I didn't worry about rank much while the Professor was alive and I don't worry much about it now. Enough people do worry about it, though, that it will matter eventually who has the authority to grant recognized Modern Arnis rank--and the ranking system helps maintain the identity of the system. Without it it's more likely that the individual parts of the art will simply be integrated into other arts and Modern Arnis will disappear. (I myself could cite many counterexamples, but it does raise the odds of this happening.) That would be fine for those arts benefitting from Modern Arnis but a shame if the Professor's art melts away.


----------



## Mao

As far as modern arnis goes, as happens often when a founder passes, the are going to be different groups. There is IMAF,inc. and WMAA to name two of the biggies. There, as we know, have been many people who have trained over the yrs. and never tested, those who have and have certificates w/expiration dates, those without expiration dates, and those who couldn't care less about rank or certification. It is up to the individual who they train with or to which, if any, organization they belong. Datu "Gatorade" Hartman has his organization, requirements, and certificates. The IMAF,inc. also has theirs. Both are very good, well run organizations with good people in them. I can speak with regard to the IMAF,inc.. The stance is: Prof. Presas pushed more for expiration dates in the past few yrs. than previously. If one wants to be involved, membership is encouraged. All new members will have their expiration dates recognized. If one has no ex. date, one can join as a new member and get one. The idea is to have ex. dates in an effort to keep individuals/the group active and current. There are standards that will be shared with current members. The IMAF,inc. is not affiliated with J. Delaney. He broke off, with no prior notification to the rest of the group, to do his own thing. The IMAF,inc. is a strong, cohesive organization. There are a few things being put in place that will be announced at a later date. Again, feel free to e-mail me with any questions.


----------



## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> 
> No--I stated that that is what the IMAF would like me to believe, if I understand their website correctly (under "Ranking"). . . , .*



My Apologies for the misunderstanding. Thank you
for clearing up the situation.

As for the questions, they were to get replies
from others to see what they thought. I have seen
these people with lots of stripes on their belts.
I have helped and been helped by many people.
Everyone has something to teach me even if it is
nothing more than patience. 

Those in the back ground or were not in the main
stream or main political movements of Modern 
Arnis, will most likely others have said, continue
to teach on their own and give recognition to 
Modern Arnis and Remy Presas.

Now I will fade back into the shadows and continue
to teach one or two people at a time.

Peace be with all - 

Rich


----------



## GouRonin

I like the idea that expiration dates are on some certs. But only because it makes people stay active. On my university degree, I don't have an experation date though. I think if people don't give out certs like they were water and made people value them a bit more than experation dates might not be needed. That's just my opinion though.

What I would like to know is what is up with the "IMAF,Inc" and the "IMAF" thing? Same name? Huh?


----------



## Mao

The IMAF is what the Prof. was pushing for for the last few years. It has always existed in his thoughts but not as much in his actions untill the last 3-5 yrs. or so. There were a few people who began different "chapters" of the IMAF with the Profs. blessing, however, it wasn't until the last few years that the Prof. began to more actively make public the IMAF and his desire for its growth as THE organization for modern arnis. Fast forward to the past year or maybe two. A particular individual who's initials are J.D. took over the main IMAF website and began to manipulate it to his benefit and to the exclusion of most of his seniors, perhaps all of them. It became, by his actions, his website. Now the Prof. gets ill and this guy gets more and more brazen in his manipulation. The Prof. named a "team" of people to continue his art and many of his wishes. These people are still together under the auspices of IMAF,inc.. This happened because the same guy that took over the old website didn't want to cooperate with the rest. For all intents and purposes he separated from them and will probably not want to discontinue his use of the IMAF name among other things without a fight, legally. IMAF,inc. is moving forward in a strong, positive way to continue what the Prof. asked them to do. More will be made public in the near future.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Mao _
> *The IMAF is what the Prof. was pushing for for the last few years. It has always existed in his thoughts but not as much in his actions untill the last 3-5 yrs. or so.*



Thanks for this informative post. Certainly the Professor's art continued to evolve until the end. I must say that, sadly, he did not prepare adequately for the end, but I appreciate your perspective that he had been attempting to do so.

Still, it is odd that both Mr. Delaney _and_ the Professor's children have such a different perspective on this. One bad apple is a possibility, if one views Mr. Delaney in that fashion, but surely his children would have been informed of his wishes? I know that he did not have frequent contact with his children in the Philippines (though Mr. Presas inferred that things were not quite as simple as this in his post), and yet...

I am certainly looking forward to seeing an official statement from IMAF, Inc. Have they stated who their director(s) is? Dr. Schea, I presume?


----------



## Mao

I do not know the Profs. grown children, only his very young ones. I do not know whether or not he made his wishes known to them. I do know that he made his wishes known to several people. We are operating on his last revised will and what he said directly to these people. The chairman of the board of the IMAF,inc. is Dr. Randi Shea. This has been so for many years. Professor Presas has refered to him as such for many years. There are six people on a steering committee. There is also a board of directors. There will be more info. shared at a later date.


----------



## Inigo Montoya

I'm confused.

IMAF, Inc. 
P. O. Box 861 
Dripping Springs, TX 78620 
Chairman: Jeffrey J. Delaney 
http://www.professorpresas.com

International Modern Arnis Federation 
2322 Chappell Lane 
Missouri-City TX 77459 
Phone: 281-437-0817 Fax:281-437-1673
Chairman: Dr. Randi Shea
http://www.modernarnis.net

But by your post (MAO) it seems that the http://www.modernarnis.net site is ALSO IMAF, Inc.

   

Me thinks you folks been forgetting to duck when playing with those twigs.  (tis a joke folks, no fwap me)


----------



## DPRESAS

Hello to all, I would like to share some information to you all. The whole (Presas family) two weeks before our father passed away we went to see him at Victoria Canada we spent lot of time talking and reminiscing about the past and talk about the future of his art which is modern arnis. He talk about how he love the art how proud he was of his student in the U.S. , Europe and Asia. How the art has matured in the next level. He spoke highly of many people, such as Roland Dantes, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman, Rodel Dagooc and much more. One thing he spoke of is a unfinish wish that he wanted us the children of Remy A. Presas to do is to start where our father has stopped and to continue the art, another unfulfilled wish he wanted is for the politics, intriques and rumors to stop. That all modern arnis practitioners should concentrate more in the art not in ranking or belts. See in old days he mentioned that people didn't care of what belt you hold or rank you have, what mattered is yours skills and what you do with it. A lot of people asked why the children of Remy A. Presas pick up their canes one month after his death ? The answer is, it is the wish of our father for us to continue the art where he has stopped and to promote modern arnis and show the new techniques. In a few weeks our website will be up please feel free to visit everybody is welcome .will be showing some picture of the new style in single and double canes and capal and much more. We will be also sharing some picture of our fathers burial in the Philippines. Again for everybodys information our main goal is for our fathers legacy is to be remembered as the only grandmaster in modern arnis. We are not here to take anything from any clubs or organization MARRPIO is here to make sure his wishes are fulfilled. We would like also to congratulate Tim Hartman for a job will done our family is very happy for you. If our father is still with us he would have said Son of a Gun how did you do that. We look forward for mutual cooperation with Tim Hartman and all modernarnis clubs, organization and practitioners. 

                                                                          Demetrio Presas
                                                                            MARRPIO:asian:


----------



## Icepick

DPresas -

Great post!  I can hear your father saying that, and it brought a smile to my face!

Thanks.


----------



## Cebu West

Your position is well stated. I look foreward to your web site and to meeting and training with you.


----------



## Mao

Demetrio,
 That was a very nice post. Thank you.
As for the IMAF,inc. question, J.D. has in the past and will probably do in the future things that he shouldn't  and not do things that he should. Nuff said.


----------



## DPRESAS

MARPPIO'S WEB SITE will be up in a few weeks


----------



## Bob Hubbard

IMAF Inc stuff - I don't know how Corporate law in TX works, but in NY, only 1 entity can have that name, OR similar.  A comma, or period is not enough to make a difference.  Also, papers have to have been filed, and there is usually a period of time where the filling can be challenged.  I'd have a lawyer familiar with TX law look into it if I were you guys.  Ya may be able to spank him.  

With all the heat this thread has generated, I was going to lock it a while back.  I'm glad I didn't, for its generated alot of good information, and cleared up alot of issues.

Demetrio - please add the MARPPIO site to your profile.  It'll make it easier for folks to find it.    It'll be nice meeting you when you visit Tims school.

Peace all.


:asian:


----------



## Mao

IMAF,inc., that is to say Dr. Shea and the rest, have been doing things legally. Dr. Shea is a careful and cautious man. The thought with regards to legalities is an important one. Thanks.


----------



## bloodwood

A recent check of the IMAF seminar listings for 2002 seems to show only a few listings for next year. I thought I remembered an entire slate of dates listed a while ago. Maybe I'm wrong and my mind is slipping, but it appears that it's starting to hit the fan over there. I guess more people are aware of what's going on than you would think. Most of those dates were probably penciled in by the Professor when he last visited those locations.

  So with the Professor gone, schools are now having to decide who they will bring in to help fill the void the Professor's passing has created. The're big shoes to fill, I hope we all go about it in an honorable and respectful way:soapbox:


----------



## bloodwood

Jd now posts himself and Dr Schea as grand masters even though Dr Schea is no longer with his organization. This just gets weirder by the day.


----------



## Guro Harold

ProfessorPresas.com also states that Dr. Shea is retired.  Hey, wasn't he just in Chicago for a camp?


 :erg:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

It just goes to show you how scared some of the Modern Arnis people are. Some people need to start rumors and tell lies about their competition because the only chance they would have to keep control.

I was keeping to myself until they started calling me a renegade and a traitor. I feel that there will be a lot more "Rumors" flying around! 


:soapbox:


----------



## IFAJKD

I am sorry for this being so late. I hope it's allowed to stay. Kaith, Good work on banning Keil from this site. I read his latest posts and attacks and had to walk away and think about them. When I returned I didn't see any of them so I assume they have been removed as well. 
Keil: Who in the H@#$ are you. It really doesn't matter. Clearly you are nothing. another website warrior with the talk. Don't worry about threats, you can come see me anytime!!! I am not hard to find....
DPRESAS, I am sorry for what your family has had to deal with. Idoits like this can only make it that much worse. I hope this will all be strainghtened out soon but I fear It will go on for many years. In the end there are many to learn from and quality survives. The fact that so much discussion and controversy is happening is a testament to the impact certain people have had on martial arts. In my life it has been Dan Inosanto and Primarily Paul Vunak. In these others lives it has been Remy
God Bless


----------



## Bob Hubbard

IFAJKD : Thank you.  Keils posts were not removed...Check your forum settings, they may be older than you're set up to view.  (look in the Control Panel)  I try -very- heard not to remove posts, even the controvercial ones.

As to Keil himself, he's gone.  It was decided that his return would not be a good thing for the forum as a whole.  While I believe he meant well, the way things came across and other events I won't go into here, made it imposible to de-ban him without causing further problems.

The MA situation continues to be interesting, but I'm refraning from comments myself right now due to other matters being more pressing (like my other forum going kaboom during the upgrade  )

Ah well.  

:asian:


----------



## Mao

:armed:   Rumors upon rumors. As Gatorade theorized, hypothesized and vocalized, there will probably be more. I can keep things straight from the IMAF,inc. perspective, I'm sure that Everglade or Gatorade or Renegade can keep things straight from the WMAA perspective. What else really matters?


----------



## arnisador

There is an announcement on the cover concerning the Professor's passing, and a half-page article inside, in the current issue of Inside Kung-Fu (Dec. 2001). I suspect it was provided to them by someone. It quotes George Dillman.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

< mod mode on >

This is in regards to the Banning of Keil.  Several others made IMHO worse statements, and were a lot more hot-headed.... The threats of Physical violence for one.

We welcome mature conversation without fear of censorship here.  I will not without a -VERY- good reason ever allow for the modification or removal of a members posts.  We want this to be the best, friendliest board out there.

We will however not allow the threatening of physcial harm either pulibly, or when informed of it, privately of our members, by our members.

To all involved : Consider this your only warning.

I gave this topic a lot of room, given the large number of issues, and the "heat" level.  

As an FYI:
a-blatent disregard for forum rules
b-blatent disrespect for forum members
c-threats of physical harm against someone.
d-repeated complaints about a user by other members (With cause)

will all be considered as grounds for a temporary and/or permanent banning of a user in the future.

This list will probably be modified as we go to include poor behaviour we haven't thought of yet. 

Banned users may be allowed to return in certain situations.

Play nice folks, I don't like being a hardass.

< mod mode off>


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Like Moe said between the two of us we can keep everyone informed about the two strongest groups at the moment *(IMAF & WMAA)*. It is entertaining to see what some groups are willing to attempt to put themselves above others.
:asian:


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## GouRonin

Oh man...I am sooooo screwed...
:wavey:


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## Bob Hubbard

Naw...so far, yer ok.  If not, we'll just get ya "fixed".


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## Rich Parsons

Excuse me Renegade,

I see the orange belt under your name.
Does this 'orange belt' related to a specific
rank in Modern Arnis, or have any other specific
meaning or significance to FMA?

Just curious?

Thanks

Rich


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## GouRonin

The ranks you see are based soley on the amount of posts a person makes. They have no bearing to any rank in the real world.
:asian:


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## IFAJKD

maybe it's time to replace the belt explinations for new people. 


Now. I apologize for any threats real or perceived. I was hot over what I read. Also quite frankly, surprised as his other posts were very well thought out. It was like a switch was turned. I simply hate seeing people do that and I want to .....I won't say it. But this is the same things that made me want to be a martial  artist in the first place. 

I will cool my jets in future posts. I think. Sorry:argue: :erg: :uhoh:


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## Bob Hubbard

Rich, 
  Our belt ranks are based on the number of posts a member has made...please see http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34 for full details.

Thanks!
Kaith



> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *...
> I see the orange belt under your name.
> Does this 'orange belt' related to a specific
> rank in Modern Arnis, or have any other specific
> meaning or significance to FMA?
> 
> Just curious?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rich *


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## Bob Hubbard

I'm locking this thread.  I think its gone about as far as it can go.  I'm spliting off the last few posts to new topics to better let them be explored.

The issues surrounding Keils banning is being disussed by the mods and will be resolved shortly.

Please, post any continuations of the other sub-topics from this thread to new threads so we can mix things up a bit. 

thanks!

:asian:


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