# W.C.I, Alan Orr and... Snake Engine?!!!



## VT_Vectis (Jul 26, 2015)

So I'm reading The latest issue and I'm pleased to see an article by Alan Orr (got a lot of respect for that bloke, doing good things with VT in an mma setting,) , lo and behold! It's all about the snake engine and six concepts espoused by a recently controversial member... Didn't realise Orr's sifu, Robert Chu was part of that trinity along with Sergio.

Not sure what to think as I respect Alan Orr's practical use of VT, but this whole "original 1840's wing chun snake body" concept?

Don't mean to flog a dead horse here, I don't want to start arguments, fraud busting or bashing anyone , I have no personal experience,or axe to grind.

But  has anyone on the forum looked into this method (for want of a better word) properly? What do you think?


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## Marnetmar (Jul 26, 2015)

I don't know too much about this whole thing but my logic says that just because Hendrick is a nut doesn't invalidate it. I'm pretty sure the six key points thing is in Yuen Kay San WC, which Robert Chu trains.


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## wckf92 (Jul 26, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> So I'm reading The latest issue and I'm pleased to see an article by Alan Orr (got a lot of respect for that bloke, doing good things with VT in an mma setting,) , lo and behold! It's all about the snake engine and six concepts espoused by a recently controversial member... Didn't realise Orr's sifu, Robert Chu was part of that trinity along with Sergio.
> 
> Not sure what to think as I respect Alan Orr's practical use of VT, but this whole "original 1840's wing chun snake body" concept?
> 
> ...




Old news.... he has been writing and commending it for some time now. WCI, Robert Chu, Alan Orr, Sergio etc have put out a handful of articles on snake engine stuff.


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## wckf92 (Jul 26, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> But  has anyone on the forum looked into this method (for want of a better word) properly?



Nobody on here can look into it. By "properly"...I'm assuming you mean go and touch hands/test skill with Hendrik. He only says to go to a bio________ lab and see how awesome snake engine is. (WTF).  Or, he diverts any interested parties to go and test others in his camp. 
BUT....if one can make it past these mystical gates....and travel to California....it only takes 16 HOURS of your busy schedule to learn it!!!!!!!! Yeeeehhhhaaaawwwww! 

Anyway, I "was" interested in learning more about it, but when posing legitimate questions on here...HS shoots you down, treats you like a buffoon, and says "get your facts straight before acting like an expert". (again....WTF). Dude has serious issues.
Sooooooooo.....guess us losers are stuck with our non-snake-engine WC/VT with no internal skill. 
Carry on gents....carry on


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## wckf92 (Jul 26, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> I don't know too much about this whole thing but my logic says that just because Hendrick is a nut doesn't invalidate it. I'm pretty sure the six key points thing is in Yuen Kay San WC, which Robert Chu trains.



I agree. But I don't think Robert Chu can claim any ties to any lineage as I've read he has wandered the WC landscape far and wide for many years training under many different masters/sifu's/lineages, etc.

On another note: I wonder if there is any high-level practitioner from the Yuen Kay San lineage on here or other forums? I have questions about that line.


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## Transk53 (Jul 26, 2015)

This fella as he writes on his channel

_In this clip I am demonstrating *the proper* Snake Engine Force Flow type power generation (Jin Lu) that is essential to handling momentum, achieving internal Wing Chun kung fu and optimal health! Respect to Great grand master Yik Kam and the wing chun ancestors._

_



_
So would this be another of those that fella is wrong and I am right type thing?


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## Danny T (Jul 26, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> This fella as he writes on his channel
> 
> _In this clip I am demonstrating *the proper* Snake Engine Force Flow type power generation (Jin Lu) that is essential to handling momentum, achieving internal Wing Chun kung fu and optimal health! Respect to Great grand master Yik Kam and the wing chun ancestors._
> 
> ...


Nothing demonstrated different than what I have been exposed to within my training and even a few things a good wing person doesn't do.
Some observations: 
In his demonstration of  'elbow force' he is using a lot of strength and is forcing his actions as he pushes and pulls the partner.
In his demonstration of  'force flow' he appears to be doing a lot of reaching out and breaking structure bending forward and pushing his hip back to maintain his balance. In his 'direct method' there is a lot of reaching and physical loading of the body to create the ability to push. Same with his demonstration at 4:30 there is strong physical loading of the body and hip prior to forcefully driving the opponent away. Not a lot of 'internal power' demonstrated.
Then as to the 'sparring' vs the opponent with "a lot of experience boxing, kickboxing, and that sort of thing"...  From what was shown it is highly questionable as to his "lot of experience".

Nothing impressive in these demonstrations.


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## Transk53 (Jul 26, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Nothing demonstrated different than what I have been exposed to within my training and even a few things a good wing person doesn't do.
> Some observations:
> In his demonstration of  'elbow force' he is using a lot of strength and is forcing his actions as he pushes and pulls the partner.
> In his demonstration of  'force flow' he appears to be doing a lot of reaching out and breaking structure bending forward and pushing his hip back to maintain his balance. In his 'direct method' there is a lot of reaching and physical loading of the body to create the ability to push. Same with his demonstration at 4:30 there is strong physical loading of the body and hip prior to forcefully driving the opponent away. Not a lot of 'internal power' demonstrated.
> ...



Yeah I thought there was a lot force being used. Not a lot of fluidity.


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## KPM (Jul 26, 2015)

VT_Vectis said:


> So I'm reading The latest issue and I'm pleased to see an article by Alan Orr (got a lot of respect for that bloke, doing good things with VT in an mma setting,) , lo and behold! It's all about the snake engine and six concepts espoused by a recently controversial member... Didn't realise Orr's sifu, Robert Chu was part of that trinity along with Sergio.
> 
> Not sure what to think as I respect Alan Orr's practical use of VT, but this whole "original 1840's wing chun snake body" concept?
> 
> ...



I think what Alan Orr is doing is great!  I signed up for his on-line mentorship program just to check it out and I have not been disappointed.  I trust him and Robert Chu.  If they say something is good and valid I believe it.  Hendrik has suffered from a serious problem with his presentation skills on this forums.  He may have something very valid to say and teach.  Unfortunately he does not come across well on-line or present his material in a very convincing fashion.  Just recently he was trying to promote things here again and showed a video of his force flow methods on the wooden dummy.  Last year I made a video on "Posture and Power" where I essentially showed the exact same thing he was saying and showing.  I put it up again to say that I understood was he was saying and his response was "no, that isn't it."   In the discussion I was describing things and talking about things straight from Alan Orr's on-line program and Hendrik said I didn't get it.  I got the very distinct impression that no matter what I wrote or said, since I had not studied directly with him he would not admit that it was the same thing he was talking about.  So yeah.  Hendrik suffers from a distinct PR disability.  But if what Alan Orr is showing is any indication, it is valid and good stuff!  Phil Romero is another guy I respect.  Phil is a direct student of Hawkins Cheung and has absolutely no reason to sign on to Hendrik's ideas unless he thought there was something to it.  Yet he has trained with Hendrik and endorses what he says.


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## Minghe (Jul 28, 2015)

Finally some honesty from Hendrik!


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## KPM (Jul 29, 2015)

Hendrik says "I have passed the art Sifu taught me to the west"......"I have decoded the Siu Lim Tao Kuen Kit fully, identified the source or the root as Ermei and Fujian White Crane.  Any contributions to this two actions, the credit goes to my Sifu Grandmaster Chung Choi, because without him I don't do these things.  As for the information I present, it belongs to all Wing Chunners because it belongs to the Red Boat era Wing Chun."  Hendrik has been saying this all along!  So Ron, I don't know what you mean by "finally"!!!  The only new thing here is that Hendrik has gotten fed up with the badgering and smear campaign from the BCWC guys and has decided that he no longer wants to be associated with them.  Since they still mix a lot of Choy Li Fut type stuff into their marital art, and Hendrik has eliminated that from what he does and sticks to the Yik Kam core, then this makes sense.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 29, 2015)

None of it makes sense - seems like a lot of mumbo jumbo and headaches to me!


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## geezer (Jul 29, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> None of it makes sense - seems like a lot of mumbo jumbo and headaches to me!


I totally agree. That's _Hendrick_ for you. Now watch an Alan Orr Clip for example. He may say something I don't fully understand or agree with, then he shows you physically exactly what he's talking about and how it works in a realistic situation. That's an approach I respect.


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## KPM (Jul 29, 2015)

Which part of what I transcribed did you guys not understand?


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## Jake104 (Jul 29, 2015)

KPM said:


> Hendrik says "I have passed the art Sifu taught me to the west"......"I have decoded the Siu Lim Tao Kuen Kit fully, identified the source or the root as Ermei and Fujian White Crane.  Any contributions to this two actions, the credit goes to my Sifu Grandmaster Chung Choi, because without him I don't do these things.  As for the information I present, it belongs to all Wing Chunners because it belongs to the Red Boat era Wing Chun."  Hendrik has been saying this all along!  So Ron, I don't know what you mean by "finally"!!!  The only new thing here is that Hendrik has gotten fed up with the badgering and smear campaign from the BCWC guys and has decided that he no longer wants to be associated with them.  Since they still mix a lot of Choy Li Fut type stuff into their marital art, and Hendrik has eliminated that from what he does and sticks to the Yik Kam core, then this makes sense.


Ok so, where does Hawkins Cheung fit into all of this?


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## Jake104 (Jul 29, 2015)

I thought what Alan Orr does came from Robert Chu - Hawkins Cheung- IP Man? No? This snake stuff seems like an after thought? Hendrick seems a little late to the party?


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## JPinAZ (Jul 29, 2015)

KPM said:


> Which part of what I transcribed did you guys not understand?



Heh, I thought I was pretty clear. None of it makes any sense. Let me see if I can recap everything

Hendrik trains for a few years in Cho Family WC some 30 years ago (which now we find out from Cho family he wasn't as much of an 'insider' as he would have had us believe). Then he claims on several different occasions on KFO that his WC is missing something like 50% of the info from what was taught by Yik Kam back in the 1850's (using some time machine we can only assume!). So, he then goes off on a quest to 'reconstruct' it by looking into a bunch of non-WC arts & lineages via on-line forums, books, clips, obscure old scrolls & new clippings, etc and mixes in this stuff - which turns out to be some general-level info from these non-WC lineages into his WC. And then he comes back claims he's reconstructed the lost half YK WC Holy Grail and has_ somehow_ 'found' (made up?) all of the lost Yik Kam teachings from 150 years ago!!

But then also claims it's all from his sifu in cho family (yik kam) teaching to make it legit (since he can't demonstrate _any_ skill of his own). And in some weird last-ditch effort of desperation to connect this stuff to Cho family, he even recently made a video showing some signed letter from his sifu from 30 YEARS ago giving him permission to teach whatever it is he learned way back then. Has nothing to do with teaching this new magical concoction - which again, he only started piecing together recently. All of which cho family has always stated, and recently restated with authority, has nothing to do with Cho Family WC as handed down to them by Yik Kam.
But now Hendrik is playing like he wants nothing to do with _them_ because they mix in some CLF teachings?? But then why bust out those old letters if he wants nothing to do with them? LOL
I hope you can see the irony in all of this. It's a mess!

And this isn't some fantasy story I've concocted, this is _all_ publicly documented in the past 10-12 years on various forums and social media by Hendrik in his multiple guises and various user names thru his quitting and coming back to forums over and over all over the internet. And now that he's getting called out for making sh!t up and labeling his creation something it's not by actual Cho Family descendants, we're supposed to feel sorry for him? lol

Yeah, I don't get any of it. And no offence, I don't think you are going to be able to clear things up for me here.
And honestly, I think too much time is spent on this guy. He left this forum, he's left a lot of others. So let's just let him go and talk about something more constructive with the people that _are_ here


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## KPM (Jul 29, 2015)

Heh, I thought I was pretty clear. None of it makes any sense.

---Ok.  I'll concede that JP!  Much of it doesn't make a lot of sense to me either!  Hendrik has not been the best at presenting his ideas in the forums over time.  The story has shifted one direction and another several times and I can't keep up with it.  Hendrik is certainly guilty of exaggerating or over-emphasizing to make his points.  Saying things like everyone else doing Wing Chun was missing key elements and were therefore ineffective certainly did not win him any friends! ;-)   But I was referring specifically to that clip that Ron seemed to think was some grand revelation of some sort, while I thought it was pretty straight-forward.

Hendrik trains for a few years in Cho Family WC some 30 years ago (which now we find out from Cho family he wasn't as much of an 'insider' as he would have had us believe).

---What?  You believe all that crap from Stephen Choe?  He posts in all the forums what is supposed to be a transcript from his conversation with Hendrik's Si Mo where she didn't know who he was to try and say that Hendrik was lying about being a student of Chung Choi.  Then Sergio provided a screenshot of a text conversation Stephen had with Hendrik where he tells Hendrik that not only did his Si Mo remember him, but so did other members of the family.  And to top it all off, his Si Mo remembered a Dit Da Jow that Hendrik shared with her that was really good and wanted to know if Stephen could get the recipe for her!  So this Stephen character has some serious credibility issues!  The fact that Hendrik may not have kept in close touch with his Sifu's family over a 30 year period is kind of irrelevant.


Then he claims on several different occasions on KFO that his WC is missing something like 50% of the info from what was taught by Yik Kam back in the 1850's (using some time machine we can only assume!). So, he then goes off on a quest to 'reconstruct' it by looking into a bunch of non-WC arts & lineages via on-line forums, books, clips, obscure old scrolls & new clippings, etc and mixes in this stuff - which turns out to be some general-level info from these non-WC lineages into his WC. And then he comes back claims he's reconstructed the lost half YK WC Holy Grail and has_ somehow_ 'found' (made up?) all of the lost Yik Kam teachings from 150 years ago!!

---I didn't keep up with all the twists and turns.  But it seems to me the bottom-line was his attempt to "unlock" and interpret those Kuen Kit he is always talking about.  So he researched many sources.  He felt what he discovered added quite a bit to the understanding of his Siu Nim Tao form that may have been "forgotten" over time.  I don't know if that is true or not.  But that's how I understand the story.  I'm probably leaving a lot out though!


But then also claims it's all from his sifu in cho family (yik kam) teaching to make it legit

---Well, he did learn the form and the Yik Kam "core" from his Sifu.  How he now interprets it and where he has gone with it might be his own.  But it doesn't change where he comes from.  Besides, we know that this is a VERY common thing in traditional Chinese circles.  Even if you make your own innovations, you don't take credit yourself...you attribute it to your sifu or an ancestor out of respect.  That's what confuses so much of the historical research in trying to find exactly WHAT came from WHO in various lineages. 


 in some weird last-ditch effort of desperation to connect this stuff to Cho family, he even recently made a video showing some signed letter from his sifu from 30 YEARS ago giving him permission to teach whatever it is he learned way back then.

---That wasn't a recent thing.  He has showed that letter in the past as well.  It is a letter from his Sifu authorizing him to  teach.  Its like have an instructor certificate in modern terms.  So it is important.  Why wouldn't he show it to prove that he was a legitimate student of Chung Choe?  Don't you have a HFY certificate to show should anyone question your legitimate connection to Garrett Gee?


 Has nothing to do with teaching this new magical concoction - which again, he only started piecing together recently. All of which cho family has always stated, and recently restated with authority, has nothing to do with Cho Family WC as handed down to them by Yik Kam.

---I could be wrong, but as far as I know, Hendrik has not changed the choreography of the SNT form as taught to him by his Sifu.  He has worked and refined the biomechanics that is at the center of what he does. 


But now Hendrik is playing like he wants nothing to do with _them_ because they mix in some CLF teachings?? But then why bust out those old letters if he wants nothing to do with them? LOL

---Nothing to LOL about as far as I can see.  Have you seen the smear campaign that they have launched recently on multiple forums?  I wouldn't want anything to do with them either!  They have basically kicked him out of the lineage, so why shouldn't he announce he is no longer maintaining any affiliation with them?  He has taken what his Sifu taught him, eliminated the non-Wing Chun elements, and expanded his understanding of the biomechanics and application of what he learned.  I don't see anything wrong with that.  I think his Wing Chun IS different from the Ban Chung Wing Chun now being taught by Ku Sifu and his group.  But at its core is still what he learned from Chung Choi Sifu. 



Yeah, I don't get any of it. And no offence, I don't think you are going to be able to clear things up for me here.

---You're probably right!  I'm not sure I've cleared up for myself!  ;-)   And I am somewhat sure that Hendrik would probably disagree with most of what I've said here....if he wasn't banned.  Hendrik makes a habit of disagreeing with most of what I say, even when I'm trying to back him up!  So yeah....why back him up you ask?  Just crazy I guess.  ;-)

And honestly, I think too much time is spent on this guy. He left this forum, he's left a lot of others. So let's just let him go and talk about something more constructive with the people that _are_ here 

---Yes.  Good suggestion!   What do you want to talk about?


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## KPM (Jul 29, 2015)

Ok so, where does Hawkins Cheung fit into all of this?

---He doesn't.  Hawkins Cheung doesn't have anything to do with Hendrik. 


I thought what Alan Orr does came from Robert Chu - Hawkins Cheung- IP Man? No? This snake stuff seems like an after thought? Hendrick seems a little late to the party?

---Robert Chu's primary "root" Sifu is Hawkins Cheung.  But Robert has learned from many sources and studied several different versions of Wing Chun.  He has incorporated things into his "Chu Sau Lei" Wing Chun that he feels fit well together and are valuable.  The mechanics and "Force Flow" methods than Hendrik teaches is one of those elements.  But Robert still credits Hawkins Cheung as his "root" Sifu.


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## Jake104 (Jul 29, 2015)

KPM said:


> Yeah, I don't get any of it. And no offence, I don't think you are going to be able to clear things up for me here.
> 
> ---You're probably right!  I'm not sure I've cleared up for myself!  ;-)   And I am somewhat sure that Hendrik would probably disagree with most of what I've said here....if he wasn't banned.  Hendrik makes a habit of disagreeing with most of what I say, even when I'm trying to back him up!  So yeah....why back him up you ask?  Just crazy I guess.  ;-)
> 
> ...


Sorry KPM but my head hurts now and I'am even more confused. So you defend a guy who disagrees with your defending him???? That is crazy. I'm trying to see your side of things. It just turns into a snooze fest when it comes to talking about Hendrick and all things associated. Like Geezer said at least Alan shows it. You've even demonstrated it and he said you were doing it wrong?

Obviously Hendrick is a narcissist and wants all the credit and glory?


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## Jake104 (Jul 29, 2015)

KPM said:


> Ok so, where does Hawkins Cheung fit into all of this?
> 
> ---He doesn't.  Hawkins Cheung doesn't have anything to do with Hendrik.
> 
> ...


Fair enough. I like Hawkins and all this Hendrick stuff was making me start to question that


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## KPM (Jul 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Sorry KPM but my head hurts now and I'am even more confused. So you defend a guy who disagrees with your defending him???? That is crazy. I'm trying to see your side of things. It just turns into a snooze fest when it comes to talking about Hendrick and all things associated. Like Geezer said at least Alan shows it. You've even demonstrated it and he said you were doing it wrong?
> 
> Obviously Hendrick is a narcissist and wants all the credit and glory?



Yeah, its kind of crazy Jake!  I see value in what Robert and Alan say and teach.  They have it directly from Hendrik...in person.   But Hendrik does NOT come across well in the forums and he and I have had our disagreements.  I get the distinct impression that I could quote him verbatim from one of his videos and he would still disagree with me simply because I have not learned it from him in person.  I find him very frustrating to deal with on the forums.  Maybe it would be different in person.  So I choose to learn what Robert and Alan have to teach and for now ignore what Hendrik says because he just confuses me.  But since what Robert and Alan teach come from Hendrik.....well, you see my dilemma I'm sure!  ;-)


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## Jake104 (Jul 29, 2015)

KPM said:


> Yeah, its kind of crazy Jake!  I see value in what Robert and Alan say and teach.  They have it directly from Hendrik...in person.   But Hendrik does NOT come across well in the forums and he and I have had our disagreements.  I get the distinct impression that I could quote him verbatim from one of his videos and he would still disagree with me simply because I have not learned it from him in person.  I find him very frustrating to deal with on the forums.  Maybe it would be different in person.  So I choose to learn what Robert and Alan have to teach and for now ignore what Hendrik says because he just confuses me.  But since what Robert and Alan teach come from Hendrik.....well, you see my dilemma I'm sure!  ;-)


Trust me. I get the same impression.

Unless you are getting some sort of monetary compensation for promoting this Snake stuff. I would just train what Robert and Alan Orr teach and look for the validation in applying what they teach. Rather then in validating the origin or history of something that might or might not be.

I believe you've been doing WC for quite a while? So for those of us who have been doing the art for many years . The dilemma becomes  can we make it work? Or did we waste half our lives learning something that can never be taken beyond drilling? This is where I like what Alan does. He bridges that gap( pun intended ). Bridging the gap between drills ,sparring, and fighting. Even between sparring and fighting there is some transition. In my little sparring video. I was training a skill. Timing my entries off the punch jab cross whatever. In real life I told him if I HAD to fight you or someone your size. I'd sucker punch him. He's twice my size! If he didn't go down, I'd run! He's a nice guy though. He laughed like yeah you better run.


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## jks9199 (Jul 29, 2015)

Gentlemembers,

Let me call your attention to the Rules:

*4.16.1 Fraud Busting*

Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

MartialTalk and its staff encourage the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer. 

Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. For example, Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum, are fine. Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the &#8220;The Great Debate&#8221; forum.

Excessive &#8220;Inquisitor-style" questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of &#8220;excessive&#8217;.

In addition, &#8220;Hot Pursuit&#8221; actions will not be tolerated. The &#8220;Hot Pursuit&#8221; is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and / or forums.

Members who become &#8216;obsessed&#8221;, &#8216;inquisitors&#8217; or &#8216;interrogators&#8217; will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum​Please keep the prohibition on fraudbusting in mind as you continue to discuss Wing Chun.

jks9199
Administrator


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## LFJ (Jul 30, 2015)

I generally like what Alan shows and talks about in his Youtube clips. It's decent Wing Chun, which is rare enough, but his fight team has also proven itself in MMA, which is extremely rare. 

That said, I don't see any snake nonsense or whatnot that Hendrik is always on about in any of their fights. 

I see good use of body mechanics in their striking, but none of that snake walk, force flow manipulation stuff ever comes out. They just hit people, because that's the stuff that really works.


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## JPinAZ (Jul 30, 2015)

Thanks for the honest reply Keith, I appreciate your POV, even if we don't fully agree.
Just a few comments and we can move on 



KPM said:


> Don't you have a HFY certificate to show should anyone question your legitimate connection to Garrett Gee?



What difference would it make if 30 years from now I started changing all sorts of things and all my old sihings call called me out on it - know what I mean?
While a piece of paper would surely show that my Sifu gave me his stamp of approval to teach, my _real _legitimacy is my skills & abilities to understand, teach and _physically demonstrate _the HFY system. Can he say the same for that last part? 



KPM said:


> Have you seen the smear campaign that they have launched recently on multiple forums?  I wouldn't want anything to do with them either!  They have basically kicked him out of the lineage, so why shouldn't he announce he is no longer maintaining any affiliation with them?



haha, yeah, I've seen that train wreck. Maybe they are as tired of all the nonsense and drama as well?



KPM said:


> He has taken what his Sifu taught him, eliminated the non-Wing Chun elements, and expanded his understanding of the biomechanics and application of what he learned.  I don't see anything wrong with that.



I think the Cho family sees something wrong with it..

BTW, who is anyone to question his sifu after only a few years as a public student? I'd say that's a lot of arrogance (and ignorance) for anyone to feel they know better than their own sifu after only a few years training. That's a big claim to make wouldn't you say?



KPM said:


> .. Hendrik makes a habit of disagreeing with most of what I say, even when I'm trying to back him up!  So yeah....why back him up you ask?  Just crazy I guess.  ;-)
> ....
> ---Yes.  Good suggestion!   What do you want to talk about?



I'd say anything and anyone that willingly steps into this mess is a little bit crazy... (if not a lot!)

Loi Lau Hoi sung? Just not on this thread - I think I've wasted too much of my time on this subject as it is


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## Jake104 (Jul 31, 2015)

So I learned. Snake engine threads =. So I'm moving on.


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## damiannc (May 8, 2021)

VT_Vectis said:


> So I'm reading The latest issue and I'm pleased to see an article by Alan Orr (got a lot of respect for that bloke, doing good things with VT in an mma setting,) , lo and behold! It's all about the snake engine and six concepts espoused by a recently controversial member... Didn't realise Orr's sifu, Robert Chu was part of that trinity along with Sergio.
> 
> Not sure what to think as I respect Alan Orr's practical use of VT, but this whole "original 1840's wing chun snake body" concept?
> 
> ...


Well its a while ago now for this talk stream and by now it must be clear that for Wing Chun to be "internal" it has to have an engine other than a good back foot and hip. 
Chu Shong Tin seems to have discovered this or a similar method.
It all works beautifully.
Its probably finally down to what you call it.
Lets just be happy that all these guys are passionate and unblinkered enough to seek out this knowledge and then pass it on. Wingchun can never be Small circle Tai Chi without some other engine than the Ip Man engine.


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## APL76 (May 9, 2021)

wckf92 said:


> I agree. But I don't think Robert Chu can claim any ties to any lineage as I've read he has wandered the WC landscape far and wide for many years training under many different masters/sifu's/lineages, etc.
> 
> On another note: I wonder if there is any high-level practitioner from the Yuen Kay San lineage on here or other forums? I have questions about that line.


I have learned Yuen Kay San wing chun from a disciple of Sum Nung for the last 20 years. I would not dare call myself a high level practitioner though. I would be happy to chat about it if you like however I might be limited in just how much detail I can go into.


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## geezer (May 11, 2021)

damiannc said:


> Well its a while ago now for this talk stream and by now it must be clear that for Wing Chun to be "internal" it has to have an engine other than a good back foot and hip. ... Wingchun can never be Small circle Tai Chi without some other engine than the Ip Man engine.


Um...er... uh... What?


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## damiannc (May 11, 2021)

geezer said:


> Um...er... uh... What?


Well...thats one response🙂 l was taught that Wing Chun was referred to as Small circle Tai chi in some circles(Fatsan Wingchun)and l was interested in that aspect though l never got to see properly in my more active training years. Some were lucky enough to and we reap the rewards of their training. The functional internal skills are becoming more available now than in the 1980s. Rather than being talked about with no real backup.


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## wckf92 (May 12, 2021)

damiannc said:


> Well...thats one response🙂 l was taught that Wing Chun was referred to as Small circle Tai chi in some circles(Fatsan Wingchun)and l was interested in that aspect though l never got to see properly in my more active training years. Some were lucky enough to and we reap the rewards of their training. The functional internal skills are becoming more available now than in the 1980s. Rather than being talked about with no real backup.



Maybe start a new thread on this topic(?). Sounds interesting.


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## geezer (May 12, 2021)

damiannc said:


> Well...thats one response🙂 l was taught that Wing Chun was referred to as Small circle Tai chi in some circles(Fatsan Wingchun)...


Hmmm... I never heard of Wing Chun referred to as Tai chi ...even the more internal branches. But then I've never been to Fo'shan or had much experience outside of  various Yip Man lineages.

Mostly, WC/VT/WT all seem quite different from Tai chi to me. I _did _know one instructor who pointed out that although we WC people talk a lot about straight lines, that in fact we do use circles. Just very small circles. Sometimes so small that we just rotate on a point ...like the point at the center of a circle ...or the point that is the cross-section of a_ line._

To his way of thinking, the lines and circles  of WC overlapped.


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## damiannc (May 12, 2021)

geezer said:


> Hmmm... I never heard of Wing Chun referred to as Tai chi ...even the more internal branches. But then I've never been to Fo'shan or had much experience outside of  various Yip Man lineages.
> 
> Mostly, WC/VT/WT all seem quite different from Tai chi to me. I _did _know one instructor who pointed out that although we WC people talk a lot about straight lines, that in fact we do use circles. Just very small circles. Sometimes so small that we just rotate on a point ...like the point at the center of a circle ...or the point that is the cross-section of a_ line._
> 
> To his way of thinking, the lines and circles  of WC overlapped.


Coming from a Tonglong background myself I never took that literally but rather that Wing Chun also had super sensitivity which could only come from truly feeling the energy and that there was an internal aspect and one day (hint hint) it could be mine.haha. Also tempering some of my more brutal Tonglongishness in Chi sau.
l was a very attentive student but did not become a deciple. I did open a school for some years.
I of course filled in all the gaps in my own mind as to what that meant. Looking at Adam Chu, Sergio etc l believe l had the right idea.. lt makes sence looking at the region (Fatsan...Ermei mt etc)that it can have all this richness and that not all schools would have it all in present time. Even the most basic mechanical Wing Chun I have seen is still a pretty good tool.
 Sifu did place great emphasis upon forward energy and softness to build real skill. But he was extremely dynamic upon aggressive attack.
My impression was that he was exposed to it( snake engine or whatever you would callit) at some stage but never really got it himself. He also had a White Crane background before Wing Chun.
Now days l see that what l learnt was very much Yeun kay shan lineage. It is a rich and interesting style. I wouldnt say that of the same school now.


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