# Piecemeal Instruction



## dancingalone (Mar 3, 2010)

How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you?  I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.  

That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate class with a significant amount of new students.  The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is.  Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices  named later.

The idea is to advance these business-class students through an approved curriculum, and if they want to learn the material left out, they could do so privately at my own dojo.

It's a good opportunity to spread my teacher's brand of karate, yet I'm wary about ceding control.  It is somewhat disconcerting to think that the sponsor, although he would be one of my students, would have a significant amount of input into the class' content and organization.


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## Omar B (Mar 3, 2010)

I don't like it man, taking stuff out of the art means you are not teaching the art but just disecting the corpse.  If they "want" you and what you do then either teach it wholly or establish a different name/ranking system specifically for them because a student earning a belt in the "summarized system" is gonna be in for a rude awakening when they go into a real dojo.

So, I say if the money's good do it, but make them know that it's not the whole thing and learning as such puts them at a disadvantage to other students.


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## repz (Mar 3, 2010)

Thats means he wants you to water it down. I dont see anything bad as though the students know that the intention is for them to grasp some basics in a crash course type of setting, and not the end all be all of karate.

This can help build good students who want to pursue karate further by digging deep into the core of your style in the future, sort of like a sneak peak kind of deal. People do this all the time in seld defense seminars, which are just changed events of certain basic techniques and not the full martial arts syllabus for their styles.


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## Omar B (Mar 3, 2010)

repz said:


> Thats means he wants you to water it down. I dont see anything bad as though the students know that the intention is for them to grasp some basics in a crash course type of setting, and not the end all be all of karate.
> 
> This can help build good students who want to pursue karate further by digging deep into the core of your style in the future, sort of like a sneak peak kind of deal. People do this all the time in seld defense seminars, which are just changed events of certain basic techniques and not the full martial arts syllabus for their styles.



Exactly, if the money's good then do it.  But make sure the students know that it's not the full experience as it were.  It could be a nice feeder system for your main school.

I started Seido Karate at my private school as an after school program, it was the real curriculum but it acted as a great feeder system for the main school.  I was doing karate at school 2 days a week and at the real dojo the other 3.


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## punisher73 (Mar 3, 2010)

As others have said, just make it clear to students that they are not learning some basic foundational stuff that make it effective.  They are learning some basics and some ideas, but there are elements missing from it.  They are going to have the spokes, but no hub with which to add structure and strength to the wheel.


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## dancingalone (Mar 3, 2010)

Well the money would be nice, although just about anything would be nice since I charge my current students $25 a month.    I've never had any significant income from teaching karate in the past, following the footsteps of my own teacher.  

The proposed class would be one of those corporate "Wellness" classes.  This company is offering a health care discount for employees who enroll and attend regularly an approved physical exercise course such as mine would be.

I imagine the student population would be VERY different from the types of students I currently have who are all fairly athletic already since that was a requirement I held in an effort to keep the training intensity and quality high.  Given that a fair amount of the desk jockeys coming to this class would probably be out of shape, I'm sure the class will be much easier to participate in than the ones at my private dojo.  That aspect doesn't bother me too much.  It's more the thought that I am stripping out the essence of goju-ryu karate when I leave out core elements by design.  

What is goju without sanchin?  What is it without the intense body conditioning exercises?  Many of the fighting applications in the system depend on having a strong and compliant body to wield effectively.  Sure I can teach the usages that don't depend so much on strength but I'd be throwing away an awful lot an awful lot of the "Go" within Goju.


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you?  I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.
> 
> That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate class with a significant amount of new students.  The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is.  Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices  named later.


I would have no problem omitting hojo undo, kotikitae, and kobudo.
People can get fit in their own time rather than wasting limited training time. Weapons I can take or leave but once again it is a question of spreading time too thinly.
If you are teaching Goju then Sanchin is non-negotiable. Sanchin is the core kata of Goju.  As for too little 'go'. The older I get the more 'ju' I use.


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## dancingalone (Mar 3, 2010)

K-man said:


> If you are teaching Goju then Sanchin is non-negotiable. Sanchin is the core kata of Goju.  As for too little 'go'. The older I get the more 'ju' I use.



Yeah, that's my thought too on sanchin.  And it's true that we all are softer in application as we grow older, partly due to better understanding, partly due to necessity.  

My issue is that my sensei taught me MANY self-defense techniques, some embodied in the kata, that really don't work well unless you're within a minimum band of strength compared to your attacker.  Now whether that's optimal or not is up to discussion, but I'm in a quandary.  I don't want to teach ineffective stuff (without body strengthening and conditioning) yet I am loath to give up a significant part of the lore taught to me.


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## seasoned (Mar 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you? I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.
> 
> That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate classwith a significant amount of new students. The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is. Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices named later.
> 
> ...


Your not watering down the system, just tailoring it to the setting in which you are teaching it. I am sure once you get started with the class they will like it a lot. With the interjection of GoJu principles as you teach, there will be many questions asked of you. At that time, as you stated, you could teach the more interested students privately at your dojo. In doing this, everyone gets what they want out of the class. As far as the sponsor, don't fear, it sounds like you have already won him over with your material, just don't give him private lessons.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't do it.  It could be the first step down a slippery slope.  Once you've gone down a bit further you've lost all control and there is no going back from it.  The next thing you know, they will be demanding ranks, inspite of the deficient curriculum.

Do it right, or don't do it.


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## dancingalone (Mar 3, 2010)

> The next thing you know, they will be demanding ranks, inspite of the deficient curriculum.



That is indeed part of the package.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 3, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> That is indeed part of the package.


 
oooohhhhh.  stormclouds on the horizon, my friend.


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## terryl965 (Mar 3, 2010)

I would simply explain that you teach a total system and by letting certain parts out it will leave gaps in one training. Remember all money is not good money in the long run. Remember money cannot provide positive feedback for yourself or your school.


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## seasoned (Mar 3, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> The next thing you know, they will be demanding ranks, inspite of the deficient curriculum.
> 
> Do it right, or don't do it.


 


dancingalone said:


> That is indeed part of the package.


This presents a whole different problem. Rank is based on curriculum, curriculum, in your case is based on system, "a whole system". There is no way you can give rank, "rank in what"? The more I read, and after thinking about it it sounds like a can of worms to me.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Gentlemen, you're likely right.  IF I take on this opportunity, I will need to let go of the cherished notion that I would be teaching goju-ryu karate.  Perhaps I could strip it down, add in a lot of cardiovascular activity and call it 'Cardio Goju'.  Or 'Goju Concepts' if I wanted a less fitness-oriented name.

Humph.  A lot to think about.


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## dbell (Mar 4, 2010)

From the word "go" (no pun intended!) you will not be teaching Goju-ryu Karate.  You would be teaching something new, and would have to belt them in this "new art".  It may be based, now loosely, on Goju-ryu, but it is not that.

If you are doing it for the money or to get your name out there, talk with your Sensei first, and get his buy in.  If he thinks it is a good idea, talk with him about a name for the new system you will be teaching in and belting people in.

If the company wants you to teach them Goju-ryu, then they need to accept the whole package.  Maybe minus SOME of the heavy exercising, but you need the rest!


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## repz (Mar 4, 2010)

I wouldnt give them the same rank as your real students. And i would enforce this statement as much as you can, and continue to state this whenever appropriate.

Some strictly tma gojy ryu karatekas might be offended, but if you get a large base of students, then you will be doing something right, since karate has many flavors. I study a kyokushin derivative, and it was originally based on goju and shotokan, obviously its no longer goju, i was more interested in the full contact knockdown aspect of it, so from my perspective its ok to change focus, as tho you dont claim its the goju system, and it has some practicality (if thats what they want).

But if you have so many restrictions to what you teach, then give them belts to reflect this, and rank as well. Like 'basics karate rank'- as a title, and give them a belt that is similar to a junior belt for kids (whatever they are, since this seems like what level they are considering the restrictions put on the training).

Personally, I wouldnt do it. If i did, i wouldnt give rank and make it a self defense seminar kind of deal, or create a whole new syllabus outside the art and stop rank somewhere in the lower belts (like yellow being the highest, and if they ask for more belts, id say to join the real class to earn them).


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## jks9199 (Mar 4, 2010)

Might I suggest meeting with the students and seeing what they want?  The other guy might be surprised... 

I can't imagine how you could teach goju karate without Sanchin kata; it's one of the foundations of the art, as I understand it.  You could certainly lessen the intensity (teach it, teach them how to practice it -- but you don't have to do more testing than is necessary to make sure their body alignment is correct, and let them decide how intensively they practice it, if that makes sense)... but you pretty much must teach it.

I'd be uncomfortable with someone dictating what I teach in that setting.  It's one thing if a facility says "you can't teach weapons here" or "no full contact sparring" because of their insurance or rules.  You can always teach those elements elsewhere...  But to make fundamental changes to the curriculum?  Not so good...


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## harlan (Mar 4, 2010)

Interesting. We have 'wellness' where I work as well, and have been toying with something similar. The overarching purpose of the class is what you have to fit the Goju into. Sanchin is perfect, and you should make a case for it...breathing, alignment, meditation. Sanchin doesn't have to be performed hard to have benefit. Pick one or two katas with nice 'self-defense' bunkai that can be done by aging knees  to plant the seeds, and if you also have solid kobudo, teach a bo kata. Kobudo is great for wellness (cardio).



dancingalone said:


> Well the money would be nice, although just about anything would be nice since I charge my current students $25 a month.  I've never had any significant income from teaching karate in the past, following the footsteps of my own teacher.
> 
> The proposed class would be one of those corporate "Wellness" classes. This company is offering a health care discount for employees who enroll and attend regularly an approved physical exercise course such as mine would be.
> 
> ...


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Might I suggest meeting with the students and seeing what they want?  The other guy might be surprised...
> 
> I can't imagine how you could teach goju karate without Sanchin kata; it's one of the foundations of the art, as I understand it.  You could certainly lessen the intensity (teach it, teach them how to practice it -- but you don't have to do more testing than is necessary to make sure their body alignment is correct, and let them decide how intensively they practice it, if that makes sense)... but you pretty much must teach it.
> 
> I'd be uncomfortable with someone dictating what I teach in that setting.  It's one thing if a facility says "you can't teach weapons here" or "no full contact sparring" because of their insurance or rules.  You can always teach those elements elsewhere...  But to make fundamental changes to the curriculum?  Not so good...



Unfortunately, it's not a question of asking the students what they want.  As newbies, their thoughts would likely be malleable anyway.  It's an issue of the company wanting to foster good exercise habits through a martial arts program while minimizing sensitive issues like too much body contact (sexual harassment or the prospect of someone getting hurt in sparring).  The actual style of martial arts is probably immaterial to the company itself.  I just happen to have a good reputation in the area as a teacher and so I was selected as a potential provider by the company in the course of their due diligence investigation.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

harlan said:


> Interesting. We have 'wellness' where I work as well, and have been toying with something similar. The overarching purpose of the class is what you have to fit the Goju into. Sanchin is perfect, and you should make a case for it...breathing, alignment, meditation. Sanchin doesn't have to be performed hard to have benefit. Pick one or two katas with nice 'self-defense' bunkai that can be done by aging knees  to plant the seeds, and if you also have solid kobudo, teach a bo kata. Kobudo is great for wellness (cardio).



The sponsor of my program opposes sanchin.  His reasoning is that the audible breathing would make some (most?) of the students self-conscious and they might not stick with the class as a result.  Any shime testing would also be a no-no, given the need for me to touch the students, many of which would be women.

This may or may not be a deal-breaker.  I haven't really argued the point forcefully yet.


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## harlan (Mar 4, 2010)

Sounds like the sponsor 'knows' what women will want without asking. 

If his/her mind is made up, biased based on what he 'knows', then no way to change it. I'd personally make a case by performing Sanchin 'soft', soft breathing, and the beneficial aspect of that kata for 'wellness' (mind/body connection, etc.). All katas can be done 'hard' or 'soft', and since it's 'just' a taste of Goju, no 'touching' *roll eyes* need be done. (Old way: learn by watching sensei.) 

I suppose, if he thought about it, 'kiais' are out as well. LOL!


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## Brandon Fisher (Mar 4, 2010)

I would not omit Sanchin maybe make an exception on the shime but would not omit sanchin.  Kotekitae is also essential really its essential to all okinawan karate again not something I would omit.  The hojo undo to some degree you could overlook but part of karate is builiding a strong body.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It's an issue of the company wanting to foster good exercise habits through a martial arts program while minimizing sensitive issues like too much body contact (sexual harassment or the prospect of someone getting hurt in sparring).



How about flower arranging?

Ok that was not a productive comment to make, but really... We're talking about martial art. If people can't cope with touching another human being or being touched by one, MA is probably not for them.

Btw, what you describe seems an awful lot like tae-bo.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 4, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The sponsor of my program opposes sanchin.  His reasoning is that the audible breathing would make some (most?) of the students self-conscious and they might not stick with the class as a result.  Any shime testing would also be a no-no, given the need for me to touch the students, many of which would be women.
> 
> This may or may not be a deal-breaker.  I haven't really argued the point forcefully yet.



At some point you will have to decide if you want to teach MA or run an adult daycare. Because based on your description, the result would have nothing to do with MA at all.

I suppose you can't make them exert themselves either, on the premise that sweating would make them self conscious or conscious of others as well?


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## Haze (Mar 4, 2010)

If we look at Sanchin and the true principal behind it we can see that the shime done by most is not necessary. The kata is to develop body elignment and proper breathing etc. It was never intended to see how much punishment one can take.

So keep sanchin in. Use it to teach the concepts of goju/karate that it should be used for.

Go with white, green, brown belts (beginner, intermediate and advanced) in the program " *"Wellness through karate concepts"*. No black belts!

In this type of class I would drop kobudo and probably no kumite. Maybe keep 2 man drills (1 steps, 3 steps) whatever you have in your curriculum.

Sign some sort of certificate but never use your "Dan grade". Just be, in this class, the wellness instructor.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> How about flower arranging?
> 
> Ok that was not a productive comment to make, but really... We're talking about martial art. If people can't cope with touching another human being or being touched by one, MA is probably not for them.
> 
> Btw, what you describe seems an awful lot like tae-bo.



We're lawsuit crazy in the US.  I understand their perspective and I respect their needs.  It may not coincide with my own objectives, meaning we don't work together, but I'm not going to mock their side.


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## harlan (Mar 4, 2010)

My experience with 'wellness' is that it's focus is to encourage physical (mostly) and mental (less so) well-being in order to keep staff healthier, and therefore more productive. Just about anything can fall under this umbrella (heck...we have cake baking...how 'healthy' is that?)...it depends on the spin. On promoting the activities that fall in line with the program focus.

My experience where I work is that karate never makes the cut as out of 300 employees, only about 6 of us (2 women) ever sign up for it. The very first hurdle (as the sponsor knows) is to get women in the class in the first place. You have to overcome 'karate stigma' (mental bias that women already have in place from negative stereotyping of the art). It's easier to get them to do 'women's strenth training' if you don't advertise it as 'gym workout'. Same with 'karate'.


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## jks9199 (Mar 4, 2010)

Sorry -- but you can't teach *martial arts* without some contact.  Sometimes, you just gotta move a person's body to the right place.  That is NOT the same as license to grope or harass!  

And any exercise will include some moments of discomfort & self-consciousness.  Overcoming that is part of the growth of exercise...

It sounds like they don't really want you to teach martial arts, but some sort of cardio-kickboxing type program.  If you're up for that -- go for it.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 4, 2010)

Well, I already mentioned tae bo.

I don't know how difficult it would be for you to be able to teach it, but it would have the advantage of being a 'known' system which was designed without any contact.

That way they don't have the misconception that that are learning a martial art, and you don't have to break your head about how you can strip the guts out of goju and still have enough left to teach them. It seems ideal for the stated requirements. And it might also make things easier for the sponsor since tae bo is a known quantity and therefore easier to promote towards people who would be uncomfortable with the contact / sweatiness / other stuff typically associated with karate.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Sorry -- but you can't teach *martial arts* without some contact.  Sometimes, you just gotta move a person's body to the right place.  That is NOT the same as license to grope or harass!
> 
> And any exercise will include some moments of discomfort & self-consciousness. Overcoming that is part of the growth of exercise...



That's true enough.  I guess the main area of conflict is that sanchin is a drill where contact between instructor and student is expected.  Whereas impromptu bodily corrections occurring in other kata or other drills are viewed as more incidental.



> It sounds like they don't really want you to teach martial arts, but some sort of cardio-kickboxing type program.  If you're up for that -- go for it.



I wouldn't go that far.  As the instructor for the course I would surely be shaping much of the content, regardless of the impression you may have received from my posts.


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## dancingalone (Mar 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Well, I already mentioned tae bo.
> 
> I don't know how difficult it would be for you to be able to teach it, but it would have the advantage of being a 'known' system which was designed without any contact.
> 
> That way they don't have the misconception that that are learning a martial art, and you don't have to break your head about how you can strip the guts out of goju and still have enough left to teach them. It seems ideal for the stated requirements. And it might also make things easier for the sponsor since tae bo is a known quantity and therefore easier to promote towards people who would be uncomfortable with the contact / sweatiness / other stuff typically associated with karate.



Um, no.


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## harlan (Mar 4, 2010)

I think it's an excellent idea, and hope it takes off.   I know another that did something similar, hoping that it would bring students to his school...but it never happened. Worse case, at the very least, it's advertising. 

Good luck.


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## JohnASE (Mar 4, 2010)

Sounds like with this program, you can't teach what you love, but could you love what you teach?  You seem passionate about teaching Goju, but would you enjoy teaching this new thing whatever it turns out to be?  Would you be happy with what your students get out of the program?

If you think so, I say go for it!  Otherwise, like you said, your newbies _will_ take their cues from you, and if you're not proud of what you're teaching them, they'll probably pick up on that.

But people create new programs all the time.  If you were teaching a women's street defense seminar, you wouldn't use the same curriculum as your karate class.  If someone came to you and asked you to design a program for kids with disabilities, you might have to modify your some parts to meet their special needs.

I'm a big believer in tradition, but I also see the value in flexibility and adaptability.


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## katagrl (Mar 15, 2010)

> I'm a big believer in tradition, but I also see the value in flexibility and adaptability.


 
I agree with this. It sounds like a good opportunity to introduce people to some of the basic concepts of your style, but at the same time let them know that there is more to it than what you are able to teach them in that setting. Would it be possible for you to have handouts giving some background and history of Goju, as well as the curriculum of what you teach at your main dojo? That way the more motivated students might follow you there, while the others would at least get some kind of exercise, but would know it wasn't full-fledged Goju karate. As far as belts, I probably would only go through the first few ranks with a modified program, then let them know they would have to transfer to the main dojo if they wanted to continue. It sounds like both a great marketing opportunity and chance to introduce something you love to some new people (and make some money, oh yeah, that), and for them to learn something new and fun that will make them feel more fit, and a few might continue on long term. It's a win-win!


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## Blade96 (Mar 15, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> How many of you would consider letting students pick and choose what they learn from you?  I am a goju-ryu karate instructor with a fairly 'traditional' curriculum, including hojo undo, kotikitae, kata, bunka, kumite, and kobudo.
> 
> That said, I've been given an opportunity to teach a regular corporate class with a significant amount of new students.  The sponsor of this proposed course is a dan holder in another karate style and he loves my material, yet he feels due to the business setting of the class, I would need to drop elements I believe are core to what goju-ryu is.  Namely sanchin and shime testing to begin with, but I imagine there other drills and practices  named later.
> 
> ...



Sounds like capitalists to me. The business interest. Corporate.

 I know what I would wanna tell em if I were in your shoes.

Seems like you wanna teach real karate not some watered down stuff.

Tell em to get stuffed. Not in those words, of course, but let em know  you're into imparting the true ma and spirit of, not some mcdojo-ish  thing.

btw my senseis teach Traditional Shotokan. One day a student came in (so my Sandan told me) who wanted to learn shotokan. but his religion was against bowing some kind of hindu or Sikh maybe. (im not sure what religion he was tbh) So he wouldnt bow to the sensei. My sensei pretty much told him he couldnt stay there.

can u see my senseis arent interested in money?

If you're not against the idea, fine. If so tell em to blow respectfully  and teach in your dojo what u wish. Its your dojo, after all.


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## grydth (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, dancingalone, I've experienced both sides of this one. We have a variety of Wellness programs going at work..... and contrary perhaps to some of the commentary, I believe those are the sign of a good and caring employer. Too many places just run people down before tossing them aside.

We do some Tai Chi/Qi Gong material as a small group - but you are correct about liability concerns. It was made very clear at the outset that only stress reduction and health benefits could be done - and I made it very clear to each person that they would *not *get the full essence of Tai Chi that my tecahers had provided. Still, they have gotten significant benefits from what we can do...

On the other side of things, my daughters practice goju-ryu - so as an observer for some years, I have a general idea.... and I do not understand how another Black Belt can expect you to remove key elements of the art. This seems a needless compromise, unwarranted interference. One would think he'd be more sensitive to that....

If I had to suggest anything, it would be to give a program of instruction to help these workers. I believe you can really help them. But do not call it goju ryu, and explain that your teachings are drawn from it but with material left out.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 15, 2010)

grydth said:


> If I had to suggest anything, it would be to give a program of instruction to help these workers. I believe you can really help them. But do not call it goju ryu, and explain that your teachings are drawn from it but with material left out.


 
and absolutely refuse to give them belts or ranks of any kind.


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