# Your Enemy Is Training...



## MadMartigan (May 5, 2021)

I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.

We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.

I have to say, this notion is such a pet peeve of mine. It gets used as a marketing tool, or people use it to try and motivate themselves or others... but how many enemies do you actually have? (and as a follow up, WHY?)

Now, I get that there are times that it is quite applicable (active duty military in a war zone for instance). Where I find it somewhat silly is seeing it posted in some gym that costs over $100/month just to get through the door (meaning you're probably living fairly comfortably if you can afford to be there).

If you are routinely rubbing elbows with people who want to hurt you; perhaps larger scale lifestyle and environment changes are in order.
If that isn't the case for you... who do you really think it is that's out to get you? 
While I could wax on at length about prevention tactics (best way to not get hit by the bad guy, is to not be anywhere around when the punch gets thrown); reality tells me that you're not likely to be attacked by an elite mma fighter (who are generally really great, peaceful people). 

That leaves your most likely assailant to be someone drunk or high on the street or some neanderthal with no temper control (rarely do you see that paired with high level training... it obviously exists, but I believe they are in the minority as most reputable schools weed those losers out asap). 

All that to say, in most cases I don't believe your enemy is actually training... but YOU ARE. Any training with resistance has some value. Even if you're studying something a little more on the esoteric side; it's still more than this 'enemy' is doing. So I say just keep going.


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## jobo (May 5, 2021)

D Hall said:


> . but how many enemies do you actually have?


just one enemy and he trains a lot,


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## Shatteredzen (May 5, 2021)

D Hall said:


> I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.
> 
> We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.
> 
> ...


By the way the Aikido threads are going you would think every physical confrontation is a carefully arranged duel between competent fighters in a ring. This concept is part of the fantasy in martial arts and its what leads to these style and dojo wars arguments. The reality is that most martial artists will never use their training and its all just good exercise. Some people will compete and an appropriate level of training for that is also good to have but that's not what I see in most cases. Very few people put the time and effort in to learn a martial art, fewer learn more than one, fewer still train to use it at one hundred percent in a realistic scenario. 

Even people who could benefit from more training don't have the dedication to pursue actual mastery, there are lots of cops and Marines who take the mandated training and never seek out a single class on their own time. This said, we have the one percent out there who do put the time in, who train full time to the point of extremes because they love martial arts or are highly competitive. Even professional fighters fall into a certain level of comfort, Ben Askren is a former champ, but I bet you he is wishing he spent a few weeks training and maybe practicing his boxing guard before he walked into the ring with Jake Paul and got his bell rung in the first round.

  For every maybe one hundred students taking classes, a handful of them are serious fighters who are going to get anywhere with their martial arts. For the few instances of them who will end up in a violent confrontation at some point in their life, this extra level of training above and beyond the general public is fine, it will protect them and be enough to control their drunk uncle Ronnie at the family barbecue, scare away the crackhead robbing them, etc. Are there hardcore "enemies" out there for the average person? Nope, that's the fantasy. If you go to work and have a good job and get a decent house in a decent neighborhood, that rabid dog of a human being you are scared of probably can't even get into your neighborhood. If you are the truly dedicated martial artist, you are likely not putting yourself into situations or ending up in situations where your skill is going to be truly tested. The people who will mess with you when you walk around don't know what time it is and if they did, they saw how you carry yourself and will look somewhere else to make their joke, start their fight, etc. 

  But everyone here is a totally competitive level fighter, putting in forty or more hours a week training if you ask them, they know more than you and can prove it because they can link a you tube video of some pro athlete doing what they are talking about. That's what's more fun. The people training for their debut ninja street brawl are self deluding but hey, if they stick with it they will eventually get to a place where they mature enough to admit to themselves what experience they do or don't have, hopefully. Personally, I enjoy hanging out with martial arts nerds and training for the love of the lifelong pursuit of knowledge, I just am at an age where I don't have time for the teenage level machismo and peacocking. I wish there were more true nerds to hang out with, because its much more common to run into the egoists and the number of people who have legitimately trained to mastery in one or more systems is super rare.


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## Shatteredzen (May 5, 2021)

jobo said:


> just one enemy and he trains a lot,


I spilled my tea laughing at this, thanks.


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## MadMartigan (May 5, 2021)




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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

D Hall said:


> I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.
> 
> We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.
> 
> I have to say, this notion is such a pet peeve of mine. It gets used as a marketing tool, *or people use it to try and motivate themselves or others*... but how many enemies do you actually have? (and as a follow up, WHY?)


I don't think there's anything wrong with this.  You don't need to have enemies, least of all ones who train, to use this mantra.  It's designed to get you to take your training seriously and give 100% of yourself.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I don't think there's anything wrong with this.  You don't need to have enemies, least of all ones who train, to use this mantra.  It's designed to get you to take your training seriously and give 100% of yourself.


But then it leads to fantasy, like imaginary scenarios about how you need to be prepared for street fighting ninjas with lightsabers. It's great to be motivated and to try hard, but its pretty silly to delude yourself into thinking that you are ever going to use more than a slight percentage of what you learn in MA if that. That's why the character building is actually more important than most of it, but, like leg day, lots of people skip that part.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> But then it leads to fantasy, like imaginary scenarios about how you need to be prepared for street fighting ninjas with lightsabers. It's great to be motivated and to try hard, but its pretty silly to delude yourself into thinking that you are ever going to use more than a slight percentage of what you learn in MA if that. That's why the character building is actually more important than most of it, but, like leg day, lots of people skip that part.


Only leads to this type fantasy for people who've had other issues long before they've heard the mantra.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Only leads to this type fantasy for people who've had other issues long before they've heard the mantra.


Like walking around neighborhoods trying to intimidate people with sweet martial arts skills.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Like walking around neighborhoods trying to intimidate people with sweet martial arts skills.


Or refusing to open their claims to criticism to the same people they assume will validate them.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Or refusing to open their claims to criticism to the same people they assume will validate them.


That's assuming someone is looking for validation, which is a big assumption, since we are just talking martial arts on the internet. That in itself should be a hint. I don't go into call of duty lobbies looking for external validation of my worldview, its for the dynamic conversation.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> That's assuming someone is looking for validation, which is a big assumption, since we are just talking martial arts on the internet. That in itself should be a hint. I don't go into call of duty lobbies looking for external validation of my worldview, its for the dynamic conversation.


But you are.  Like every other aikidoka.  Trying to get that seat at the table.  "My martial art works toooooo…."

Yeah, okay, kiddo.  Go have a seat at the kid's table.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

@Shatteredzen by the way, out of respect for the OP, let's not hijack this thread.  Instead of following me around with your petty beefs, keep them in the thread where they started.


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## Blindside (May 6, 2021)

My friends are always training, and they are going to kick my *** the next time I see them if I don't get better.  I can't imagine studying martial arts for 20 years with the target of skill acquisition being "being better than a drunk mugger."  Is any practice better than nothing?  Maybe, is what you are training actually functional?  How do you know?  Because your instructor beat up a drunk mugger twice in his life?  Because of my friends I am going to be better than my "enemies" (as if I had any.)


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> But you are.  Like every other aikidoka.  Trying to get that seat at the table.  "My martial art works toooooo…."
> 
> Yeah, okay, kiddo.  Go have a seat at the kid's table.


What table? Where did we get tables from? Last time I checked, we are all just random internet karate nerds. Is there going to be food later?


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> @Shatteredzen by the way, out of respect for the OP, let's not hijack this thread.  Instead of following me around with your petty beefs, keep them in the thread where they started.


I was here first, you came in with the chip on your shoulder. I don't have any beefs pook, they must be at the big kids table you were talking about where everyone shares the world star videos of people sucker punching homeless dudes and talks about the real martial arts.

If you want to make assumptions, here is a safe one, assume all of my commentary is voiced in the tone of Rob Schneider from Surf Ninjas






If sarcasm hurts, its a definite indicator that you are taking yourself too seriously.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Blindside said:


> My friends are always training, and they are going to kick my *** the next time I see them if I don't get better.  I can't imagine studying martial arts for 20 years with the target of skill acquisition being "being better than a drunk mugger."  Is any practice better than nothing?  Maybe, is what you are training actually functional?  How do you know?  Because your instructor beat up a drunk mugger twice in his life?  Because of my friends I am going to be better than my "enemies" (as if I had any.)


I think he is trying to advocate for a more realistic outlook more than mediocrity. When you get spun up too hard in a competitive outlook, you tend to say mean things to people on the internet, style bash, etc and the toxicity comes from unrealistic views as to what is out there. Peer pressure that is positive like what you have is great, I try to use it myself because its such a positive motivator. I think the takeaway is lets have fun and train hard without getting into actually breaking out the measuring tape and calling for a contest no one wants or being too full of ourselves. You should of course, train how you intend to fight as much as possible.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I was here first, you came in with the chip on your shoulder. I don't have any beefs pook, they must be at the big kids table you were talking about where everyone shares the world star videos of people sucker punching homeless dudes and talks about the real martial arts.


😅🤣😂


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## Blindside (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I think he is trying to advocate for a more realistic outlook more than mediocrity. When you get spun up too hard in a competitive outlook, you tend to say mean things to people on the internet, style bash, etc and the toxicity comes from unrealistic views as to what is out there. Peer pressure that is positive like what you have is great, I try to use it myself because its such a positive motivator. I think the takeaway is lets have fun and train hard without getting into actually breaking out the measuring tape and calling for a contest no one wants or being too full of ourselves. You should of course, train how you intend to fight as much as possible.


Maybe I misinterpreted, it sort of seemed to be a defense of mediocrity to me.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> 😅🤣😂


Keep scrolling guy, there are posts above that.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Keep scrolling guy, there are posts above that.


Yeah, and they only show who was here first.  My screenshot captures who the one with the chip on their shoulder is! 😅🤣😂


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Yeah, and they only show who was here first.  My screenshot captures who the one with the chip on their shoulder is! 😅🤣😂


That's very selfish of you to assume my response was a barb rather than a genuine reply. I have been telegraphing my barbs way more Pook.

Much like the Carly Simon hit - "you're so vain", that comment is in fact, not about you.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> That's very selfish of you to assume my response was a barb rather than a genuine reply. I have been telegraphing my barbs way more Pook.
> 
> Much like the Carly Simon hit - "you're so vain", that comment is in fact, not about you.


^^^Annnnnddddd I'm done.  Looks like I've been going back and forth with a child the whole time!  Looks like I made a prediction when I told you to go sit at the children's table!😅🤣😂


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> ^^^Annnnnddddd I'm done.  Looks like I've been going back and forth with a child the whole time!  Looks like I made a prediction when I told you to go sit at the children's table!😅🤣😂



Well you did hopefully learn the fallacy of doing the internet tough guy routine. There's lots of people who can't play competitive online games very well who have told me they are gangsters in the RL and I'm still waiting on them to show up at my house like they promised.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Well you did hopefully learn the fallacy of doing the internet tough guy routine.


"Aikido is useless" = "I'm a tough guy"

Your logic is as bad as jobo's command of the English language, and you displayed that long before this!😅🤣😂


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> "Aikido is useless" = "I'm a tough guy"
> 
> Your logic is as bad as jobo's command of the English language, and you displayed that long before this!😅🤣😂


I'm referring to your diatribe about being from Malibu's most wanted or whatever when you were citing world star hip hop for fighting techniques and talking about showing people videos of sweet martial arts moves to intimidate them. The whole IAMBIGPOOKIE routine. Remember that?


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I'm referring to your diatribe about being from Malibu's most wanted or whatever when you were citing world star hip hop for fighting techniques and talking about showing people videos of sweet martial arts moves to intimidate them. The whole IAMBIGPOOKIE routine. Remember that?


LOL, nope.  Never said anything about being from Malibu's most wanted.

But I did say that I was Big Pookie.  So what?  If you think there's a threat behind that, that's your problem, not mine.

By the way, it's been years since anyone has threatened to come whoop my *** on the internet. You just outted yourself as an internet troll. And a horrible one at that! 🤣😅😂


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## MadMartigan (May 6, 2021)

Blindside said:


> I misinterpreted, it sort of seemed to be a defense of mediocrity to me.


Haha. I can see how it coulda been interpreted that way. Not the intention.
While mediocrity is better than nothing, I really can't get my head around why anyone would train anything at all just to be ok at it.
My post was more a rant against macho posturing with the mentality that 'you're wasting your time if you don't practice only the 3-4 arts that ufc champions practice'. (Of course, I also believe that there are scenarios when that enemy IS actually training... that just doesn't apply to the majority).
I look at the martial arts as a lifelong pursuit, rather than a sprint to the finish line of badassery.
As was alluded to before the aikido is crap debate migrated this way from it's natural habitat: There is so much more to the martial arts than what the 'Tapout' or 'Affliction' culture portrays.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> LOL, nope.  Never said anything about being from Malibu's most wanted.
> 
> But I did say that I was Big Pookie.  So what?  If you think there's a threat behind that, that's your problem, not mine.
> 
> By the way, it's been years since anyone has threatened to come whoop my *** on the internet. You just outted yourself as an internet troll. And a horrible one at that! 🤣😅😂


I think you should take another crack at the whole reading thing. I don't think you read what you think you did.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

D Hall said:


> Haha. I can see how it coulda been interpreted that way. Not the intention.
> While mediocrity is better than nothing, I really can't get my head around why anyone would train anything at all just to be ok at it.
> My post was more a rant against macho posturing with the mentality that 'you're wasting your time if you don't practice only the 3-4 arts that ufc champions practice'. (Of course, I also believe that there are scenarios when that enemy IS actually training... that just doesn't apply to the majority).
> I look at the martial arts as a lifelong pursuit, rather than a sprint to the finish line of badassery.
> As was alluded to before the aikido is crap debate migrated this way from it's natural habitat: There is so much more to the martial arts than what the 'Tapout' or 'Affliction' culture portrays.



On the plus side I feel like the community as a whole is coming around a bit. The practical mindset of "use what works" is much more pervasive now due in no small part to BJJ and the UFC. I think when we can drop some of the posturing and start collaborating more we will see a renaissance in the martial arts. I feel like its an exciting era to be alive for when I see how far its come since the 90's. There's so much more real stuff, good information, etc in Eastern and even Western martial arts then there ever was back when black belt magazine and local tournaments were the yardstick measuring everything. If we can meet humbly on the mat and do some good work, I have a feeling we will see a better integration between MMA/TMA and the community in general.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I think you should take another crack at the whole reading thing. I don't think you read what you think you did.


Oh, kind of like how you read me being the one who started things in this thread, when in fact you did by bringing up WSHH.  One of us has a pretty bad track record for being able to read, and it ain't me!😅🤣😂


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Oh, kind of like how you read me being the one who started things in this thread, when in fact you did by bringing up WSHH.  One of us has a pretty bad track record for being able to read, and it ain't me!😅🤣😂


Beware of getting involved in land wars in Asia


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Beware of getting involved in land wars in Asia


WTF?


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> WTF?


Its a koan, you wouldn't get it...


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Its a koan, you wouldn't get it...


I have a feeling you're the only one who gets your own humor.


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## Shatteredzen (May 6, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I have a feeling you're the only one who gets your own humor.


Well its certainly wasted on you. I know. There's no jokes in Hampton, VA, just them mean streets. Sorry, I forgot Pook.


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## Urban Trekker (May 6, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Well its certainly wasted on you. I know. There's no jokes in Hampton, VA, just them mean streets. Sorry, I forgot Pook.


It was just a waste, period.  Much like the gametes that unfortunately created you.


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## MadMartigan (May 6, 2021)

Let's remember we're here for fun and not drive everyone else away with constant bickering.


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## Shatteredzen (May 7, 2021)

D Hall said:


> View attachment 26695
> 
> Let's remember we're here for fun and not drive everyone else away with constant bickering.


Ok, sorry Dad


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 7, 2021)

Havent really heard that one.   but it does look slightly silly and i can see how it would annoy, it doesnt really make sense to me.     


If we apply this to sport, only proffesional atheltes do it every day, and then they only train for the sport(s) they do.  And their competition is usually in the same boat of them just explitly practising their sport(s). 

If we apply this to another job, you generally get your how ever much training you get when you start to do it and they either offer CPD or leave it up to you until you take another post/need more mandated training. 

i have no idea where i am going with this, so i am leaving it there.


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## Ivan (May 7, 2021)

D Hall said:


> I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.
> 
> We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.
> 
> ...


Sorry but I have to disagree. I have big aspirations in the world of martial arts, so I am almost constantly training in one form or another. I might be in a boxing class, and run right over to BJJ or the gym after. I might be attempting to increase strength or muscle mass. I might be meditating or reading a book on techniques, diets etcetera. I might do 500 pushups daily, and 500 crunches before going to sleep. I might be following my carnivore diet. I might do 100 kicks on each leg daily.

These are all things that I have done and continue to do. I don't do all of them every day, but if I could I most certainnly would. Every day before I go to sleep I ask myself; is there something today I didn't do that my rival has? Then I make sure to do it the next day, and I make it harder as punishment for skipping it in the first place. Did you forget to do your 200 crunches last night? You're doing 500 today. Why 500? Well, 200 for today, 200 for yesterday, and an extra 100 as punishment for forgetting. You stopped at 23 to catch your breath when you were meant to do 30? Your new goal is 35.

I feel like this has pushed me to train much harder than anyone around me. I'm the one setting the standard, and if I'm not then I am not training hard enough. Who is my rival? I don't know. But I know one day I'll meet him, and if you don't have one, rest assured you'll meet him too. Especially if you have a goal to aspire to. No one becomes number one without butting heads with the people that have the same goal as him. There is only one fastest man, one strongest, one baddest.

If you don't have anything to aspire to, that's fine but then, why train? You might train for yourself, but that doesn't mean there isn't an enemy out there. The enemy isn't always someone else. The enemy is usually yourself. This enemy is the hardest working version of yourself. When I imagine my enemy or rival, it's someone exactly like me who has gone through the same day and hardships but has managed to get more out of it than I have. Aim to *be* the enemy, not to compare yourself to him.


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## Urban Trekker (May 7, 2021)

Ivan said:


> If you don't have anything to aspire to, that's fine but then, why train? You might train for yourself, but that doesn't mean there isn't an enemy out there. *The enemy isn't always someone else.* The enemy is usually yourself. This enemy is the hardest working version of yourself. When I imagine my enemy or rival, it's someone exactly like me who has gone through the same day and hardships but has managed to get more out of it than I have. Aim to *be* the enemy, not to compare yourself to him.


Exactly.  In my case, martial arts is a smaller part of a bigger picture.  What I think about everyday is the ability to get home every night, and doing so safely.  I'm heavily into EDC (Everyday Carry), and I never leave the house without my GHB (Get Home Bag).

For me, there are two enemies:

1.  Any obstacle that gets in the way of me getting home - whether it's an animal, an object, an incident, or a person.
2.  Society's wholesale contempt for men in distress.  If you're a woman in distress, people will be tripping over each other to come and help you.  If you're a man, you're on your own.  That said, you have to be prepared for everything, and I do that through my EDC items that I keep on my person and in my GHB.


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## MadMartigan (May 7, 2021)

Ivan said:


> No one becomes number one without butting heads with the people that have the same goal as him. There is only one fastest man, one strongest, one baddest.


I think we essentially agree on most of these things, with some semantics being our only real difference. 
This 1st point is true, but only temporarily. There is always someone stronger, faster... and you want that someone to be you. A commendable goal; but I believe a short lived one. The reason being you may reach that mountain, (and fn congrats if you do, seriously); but tomorrow it will be someone's day while the circle of existence moves each of us to different places. Anderson Silva WAS one of the baddest men on the planet (imo), and he's still an amazing fighter... but age and injury find us all. My point is not to accept mediocrity, but more about seeking long term mastery and finding more than just the ability to fight.


Ivan said:


> The enemy isn't always someone else. The enemy is usually yourself. This enemy is the hardest working version of yourself. When I imagine my enemy or rival, it's someone exactly like me who has gone through the same day and hardships but has managed to get more out of it than I have. Aim to *be* the enemy, not to compare yourself to him.


Here's where I couldn't agree more. This was essentially going to be my 'rebuttal' before seeing you wrote it yourself. 
The enemy is yourself, not some nebulous outside evil force. 
The most beautiful thing about the martial arts is that it's all individual. Being better than you from yesterday. 
I know where my glass ceiling is in some respects. I'll be 40 this year, and a UFC contract isn't in the cards (even if I wanted to at this point). What I can do, is increase mastery of other areas; my understanding of the movements, what makes it work better than it did for me last week or year, how to better understand all facets of the art, so that I can better pass along the knowledge I've gained to future martial artists.

In the end, I don't think our ideologies are all that far apart.


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## Graywalker (May 7, 2021)

How many enemies, does your country have?


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## drop bear (May 7, 2021)

Rat said:


> Havent really heard that one.   but it does look slightly silly and i can see how it would annoy, it doesnt really make sense to me.
> 
> 
> If we apply this to sport, only proffesional atheltes do it every day, and then they only train for the sport(s) they do.  And their competition is usually in the same boat of them just explitly practising their sport(s).
> ...



It was a fit for duty meme there fro a while.


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## jobo (May 7, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> Exactly.  In my case, martial arts is a smaller part of a bigger picture.  What I think about everyday is the ability to get home every night, and doing so safely.  I'm heavily into EDC (Everyday Carry), and I never leave the house without my GHB (Get Home Bag).
> 
> For me, there are two enemies:
> 
> ...


what's in your GHB ? i have get home shoes, its all I've ever needed and some times a hat


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## ShortBridge (May 7, 2021)

D Hall said:


> I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.
> 
> We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.
> 
> ...


I hate to derail the derail by responding to the original poster, but here we go: I'm with you on this @D Hall. It's one of a whole bunch of things that martial artists say that feel pretentious and LARP-y to me. 

I feel the same about "in combat" or when people talk about "the street". There's a bit of fantasy there and maybe it's mostly harmless, but I think that some people do buy into it and start seeing their neighbors and "other people" in general as threats and enemies. We're seeing it in the news more and more in the US.

Granted this is a tough line to straddle because we are teaching and practicing self defense (fighting), at least some of us are and that's not a dig at anyone who trains for other reasons. As long as you're doing what you want and are honest with yourself about it, I don't see a problem. 

When I'm teaching (or training) I do like to focus on application, when we're working something isolated from application, like conditioning or balance or timing or forms, I keep track of that time and bring it back to application. But, the bigger part of self defense or as I sometimes prefer to think of it - Personal Safety, is understanding your environment. I practice and teach IMOP and Cooper's Color Codes and deescalation and evasion/preclusion. I want to feel safe and I want my students to feel safe and part of that is being able to engage in a physical confrontation, but it doesn't start or end there and I don't think it's healthy to imagine invisible enemies and villains out there who we must confront and defeat. 

I practice awareness, evasion, de-escalation all that time "in the street" (now I went and did it). There are very few scenarios where it is actually necessary to fight someone and even those theoretical people, honestly I don't imagine as enemies, maybe situational threats.

I got into a lot more confrontations before I was well trained enough to handle them.


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## drop bear (May 8, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> I practice awareness, evasion, de-escalation all that time "in the street" (now I went and did it). There are very few scenarios where it is actually necessary to fight someone and even those theoretical people, honestly I don't imagine as enemies, maybe situational threats.



The thing is I think this is kind of the same animal as you suggested about street fighting. 

Where people are winning a competition nobody else was in or knew about.


----------



## Tez3 (May 8, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> By the way the Aikido threads are going you would think every physical confrontation is a carefully arranged duel between competent fighters in a ring. This concept is part of the fantasy in martial arts and its what leads to these style and dojo wars arguments. The reality is that most martial artists will never use their training and its all just good exercise. Some people will compete and an appropriate level of training for that is also good to have but that's not what I see in most cases. Very few people put the time and effort in to learn a martial art, fewer learn more than one, fewer still train to use it at one hundred percent in a realistic scenario.
> 
> Even people who could benefit from more training don't have the dedication to pursue actual mastery, there are lots of cops and Marines who take the mandated training and never seek out a single class on their own time. This said, we have the one percent out there who do put the time in, who train full time to the point of extremes because they love martial arts or are highly competitive. Even professional fighters fall into a certain level of comfort, Ben Askren is a former champ, but I bet you he is wishing he spent a few weeks training and maybe practicing his boxing guard before he walked into the ring with Jake Paul and got his bell rung in the first round.
> 
> ...




I would take issue with your comment about police officers and military 'not having the dedication' to train, there's a lot gets in the way of not being able to train as much as you'd like. Long shifts, deployments, injuries, not much time off, trying to have a home life while working isn't conducive to training 'in your own time'. Shift working often means your own time is at hours when martial arts classes and gyms simply aren't open. Yes, there's gyms for the use of the military on camps but military training and duties often mean that doing your own training isn't always possible.

Lack of training isn't often the problem with pro MMA fighters, lack of tactical nous and preparation can be though.

Implying these people are lazy is in itself lazy, a little understanding of these jobs help before criticising them.


----------



## frank raud (May 8, 2021)

When I did an advertising campaign for a martial arts club ,we found using the slogan " You're safe, no need to practice, enjoy your bag of Funyuns"  didn't encourage anyone to sign up.  Your experience may be different, try it for your club.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 8, 2021)

frank raud said:


> When I did an advertising campaign for a martial arts club ,we found using the slogan " You're safe, no need to practice, enjoy your bag of Funyuns"  didn't encourage anyone to sign up.  Your experience may be different, try it for your club.



Isnt that a mixed bag?   Some people just dont like fear mongering and if they find out you are will no longer be your patron.       But surpise suprise, telling somone they dont need your service meant people didnt use your service.


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## Flying Crane (May 8, 2021)

We all decide the level of paranoia to which we will subscribe.

Ive found that it’s actually pretty easy to get through life without getting into fights.  At least after one gets through high school.  This has been my experience.  I suspect a lot of people have had similar, but one’s mileage may vary.  

somehow the thugs and miscreants don’t seem to be lurking behind every bush and dumpster, waiting to mug me for my lunch money.  

I would say that if you (the general “you”) find yourself getting into a lot of fights as an adult, and you do not work in a profession where that makes sense, like LEO or military or security, then you just might be the problem.  Might be time for a little honest introspection.


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## Urban Trekker (May 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> what's in your GHB ? i have get home shoes, its all I've ever needed and some times a hat


Inside my GHB, I keep my laptop and associated peripherals, a dopp kit full of travel size personal hygiene items, a poncho, small tools, a silverware set, cell phone accessories, two all-day bus passes, a couple of fast-food gift cards, a hotels.com gift card, chem lights, AA and AAA batteries, flashlight, lighter, padlock, and a couple of other things.


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## mograph (May 8, 2021)

How about "While you sit on the couch, your *opponent* is training?"

That narrows down the context to martial arts in both competition and sparring, while avoiding the possible "everyone is my enemy" mindset.


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## drop bear (May 8, 2021)

mograph said:


> How about "While you sit on the couch, your *opponent* is training?"
> 
> That narrows down the context to martial arts in both competition and sparring, while avoiding the possible "everyone is my enemy" mindset.



The better version of you is training.


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## Urban Trekker (May 8, 2021)

mograph said:


> How about "While you sit on the couch, your *opponent* is training?"
> 
> That narrows down the context to martial arts in both competition and sparring, while avoiding the possible "everyone is my enemy" mindset.


Why?

I mean, this is such a simple concept, and we're overthinking it to death.


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## Buka (May 9, 2021)

As a first responder it's inevitable you're going to be dealing with trouble in one form or another. Sometimes it's little things and sometimes it's not so little things.

In private life it's usually easy to avoid trouble, but not as easy as it used to be. There seems to be more crazy and more violent people around than there used to be. And if something is happening to someone else, it's kind of hard not to try and help them.


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## isshinryuronin (May 9, 2021)

I figure there are 4 types of everyday people (possible prey) walking the street:

   1.  Those who are oblivious to possible threats and have no skills to handle them.  These are happy folks - until they're attacked.
   2.  Those who are aware of the dangers, but have no training or strength to confront them.  These are folks living with some fear.
   3.  Those who are aware, and have poor training.  These are folks at risk, likely to underestimate the danger.
   4.  Those who are aware of possible threats, and have been well trained to handle them.  These are folks who are cautious, but able to enjoy their walk with relative safety.

#4 people don't see enemies behind every corner, but are prepared, just in case.  I don't plan or expect to be a home invasion victim, but I have a gun.  I have never come across a dying person, but I know CPR.  I don't expect a disaster or an invasion, but I have a "go bag" and 10-14 days bottled water ready.  The Boy Scout motto is one of the best, "Be Prepared."


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## Urban Trekker (May 9, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> 4.  Those who are aware of possible threats, and have been well trained to handle them.  These are folks who are cautious, but able to enjoy their walk with relative safety.



This.  I think everyone should modify this to their own personal situation.  For example: I'm a fairly big guy, so my probability of attracting the attention of a single unarmed attacker is pretty low.  This is one of the reasons I conceal carry.


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## sgtmac_46 (May 11, 2021)

D Hall said:


> I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.
> 
> We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.
> 
> ...


That is an indicator of how much of a peaceful bubble most folks live in.

The part about only good guys being allowed to train is a fallacy, however.

There’s tens of thousands guys in prison all over this country right now hitting the weight pile, training daily, fighting real bloody fights often.

Quite a few fighting champions learned to box in prison.....to name one, Sonny Liston.

But as you say most folks social bubble keeps them out of contact with really dangerous people most of the time.


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## Shatteredzen (May 11, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I would take issue with your comment about police officers and military 'not having the dedication' to train, there's a lot gets in the way of not being able to train as much as you'd like. Long shifts, deployments, injuries, not much time off, trying to have a home life while working isn't conducive to training 'in your own time'. Shift working often means your own time is at hours when martial arts classes and gyms simply aren't open. Yes, there's gyms for the use of the military on camps but military training and duties often mean that doing your own training isn't always possible.
> 
> Lack of training isn't often the problem with pro MMA fighters, lack of tactical nous and preparation can be though.
> 
> Implying these people are lazy is in itself lazy, a little understanding of these jobs help before criticising them.



I learned the bulk of my martial arts while serving active duty in the Marine Corps. I was a cop after I finished my enlistment. Training is a matter of priorities, if you want to learn you find time. Most people wont put in more than minimum effort into what they do and even those who might be willing to go above and beyond to gain a title arent necessarily willing to exhert themselves greatly over time.


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## Shatteredzen (May 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The better version of you is training.


I like this one


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## ShortBridge (May 11, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The better version of you is training.



Possibly. Or perhaps the better version of me is more involved in the community, coaching youth sports and working with at risk youth and historically disadvantaged segments of the population...and training.


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## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

D Hall said:


> I know some may vehemently disagree with this, but let's have some (respectful) fun.
> 
> We've all seen some version of this mantra a thousand times: 'While you sit on the couch, your enemy is training '.
> 
> ...


The enemy is not like in the movies.


Urban Trekker said:


> Yeah, and they only show who was here first.  My screenshot captures who the one with the chip on their shoulder is! 😅🤣😂


There is always an enemy. If you live on this earth you know there are thieves, robbers, and obnoxious people in every town and city.


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## Hanshi (May 11, 2021)

Funny, but when I first read the thread title I thought it meant that "training" itself was the enemy.  I know I've felt that way from time to time, viewing it as something of a chore.  As far as I know I don't have any "personal" enemies; I've always got along quite well with most people.  But if I DO have an enemy and he IS training then he hasn't the time to spare for coming after me.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> I learned the bulk of my martial arts while serving active duty in the Marine Corps. I was a cop after I finished my enlistment. Training is a matter of priorities, if you want to learn you find time. Most people wont put in more than minimum effort into what they do and even those who might be willing to go above and beyond to gain a title arent necessarily willing to exhert themselves greatly over time.



Really? You choose to denigrate people because you feel the need to be superior to them. Most sane, well rounded people balance their lives, what you call minimum effort is for others is actually taking care of their families while giving their best effort to their work and other priorities.
Training may be an obsession for you but remember it's not how often you train it's the quality of that training. Better an honest hours training doing good work than hours faffing around with incorrect technique and claiming it's dedication.


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## Shatteredzen (May 12, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Really? You choose to denigrate people because you feel the need to be superior to them. Most sane, well rounded people balance their lives, what you call minimum effort is for others is actually taking care of their families while giving their best effort to their work and other priorities.
> Training may be an obsession for you but remember it's not how often you train it's the quality of that training. Better an honest hours training doing good work than hours faffing around with incorrect technique and claiming it's dedication.


Really? Whose being denigrated by that statement exactly? Every department has fat cops and in shape ones, every unit in the military has its motivated enlistees and the guys who spend most weekends restricted to the barracks. There's a huge difference between the guy who PT's a few hours a week and makes a BJJ class once or twice a week and the one who chooses to sit at home and do nothing. I've always put more time in than the minimum, out of personal choice, because that's my priority, but I'm not talking about the disparity between those hours and "an honest hour" put in by some guy with a family, I'm talking about the guy who puts in no hours, because he is more common.


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## Steve (May 12, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Really? Whose being denigrated by that statement exactly? Every department has fat cops and in shape ones, every unit in the military has its motivated enlistees and the guys who spend most weekends restricted to the barracks. There's a huge difference between the guy who PT's a few hours a week and makes a BJJ class once or twice a week and the one who chooses to sit at home and do nothing. I've always put more time in than the minimum, out of personal choice, because that's my priority, but I'm not talking about the disparity between those hours and "an honest hour" put in by some guy with a family, I'm talking about the guy who puts in no hours, because he is more common.



To be clear, someone who trains 4 days a week will certainly perform better than someone who trains 2 days per week, if all other things are equal.  So, I don't disagree with the point you're trying to make.  

But the comment that it's just an unwillingness to exert oneself is a little judgy.  I may misunderstand Tez's comment, but I think there's a fundamental difference between someone who shirks their professional responsibilities, such as a fat cop or an unmotivated marine, and someone who can't train aikido or BJJ 5 days a week because he or she actually has professional and personal commitments.   Think of it like this.  For some people, BJJ is the donut that a cop might eat when he should be training.


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## Shatteredzen (May 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> To be clear, someone who trains 4 days a week will certainly perform better than someone who trains 2 days per week, if all other things are equal.  So, I don't disagree with the point you're trying to make.
> 
> But the comment that it's just an unwillingness to exert oneself is a little judgy.  I may misunderstand Tez's comment, but I think there's a fundamental difference between someone who shirks their professional responsibilities, such as a fat cop or an unmotivated marine, and someone who can't train aikido or BJJ 5 days a week because he or she actually has professional and personal commitments.   Think of it like this.  For some people, BJJ is the donut that a cop might eat when he should be training.


Absolutely, there's nothing wrong with putting in less than "the max" when you have other commitments. If you are in a profession of arms however, you probably should be maintaining a certain baseline. I've never chided anyone for spending time with their family or taking care of responsibilities, on the other hand I have relentlessly teased friends to put down the video games or the beer to come train.


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## Tez3 (May 12, 2021)

Your 'relentless teasing' could be taken as bullying or boorish behaviour.  I can tell you now you wouldn't be doing it to British military, you'd be told to eff off in short sharp jerky movements. We train hard and like to relax with a pint. 😁 Standards are set high and surpassed, training is hard, specialised and done with the usual British military insults towards it and each other.
With military people as well as police remember we need downtime, a time to chat, have a laugh and relax for our mental health. Endless pushing to go training could give you the opposite effect to the one you intended.
If you think you are among the 'common' people you've joined the wrong mob.


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## Shatteredzen (May 12, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Your 'relentless teasing' could be taken as bullying or boorish behaviour.  I can tell you now you wouldn't be doing it to British military, you'd be told to eff off in short sharp jerky movements. We train hard and like to relax with a pint. 😁 Standards are set high and surpassed, training is hard, specialised and done with the usual British military insults towards it and each other.
> With military people as well as police remember we need downtime, a time to chat, have a laugh and relax for our mental health. Endless pushing to go training could give you the opposite effect to the one you intended.
> If you think you are among the 'common' people you've joined the wrong mob.


Haven't met many US Marines have you? Bullying and boorish behavior is kinda our thing.🤣


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## Steve (May 12, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Absolutely, there's nothing wrong with putting in less than "the max" when you have other commitments. If you are in a profession of arms however, you probably should be maintaining a certain baseline. I've never chided anyone for spending time with their family or taking care of responsibilities, on the other hand I have relentlessly teased friends to put down the video games or the beer to come train.


I often ask my friends to hold my beer.


Shatteredzen said:


> Haven't met many US Marines have you? Bullying and boorish behavior is kinda our thing.🤣


Marines stand for Muscles Are Required; Intelligence Not Essential, Sir.


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## Shatteredzen (May 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> I often ask my friends to hold my beer.
> 
> Marines stand for Muscles Are Required; Intelligence Not Essential, Sir.


This is fair. We actually have an inside joke about how many Marines can be in a group before everyone succumbs to the group stupidity. Critical mass seems to be four, the size of our smallest fighting unit, the fireteam. Once you have 4 Marines in one place you are guaranteed to get stupid behavior or a fight.


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Haven't met many US Marines have you? Bullying and boorish behavior is kinda our thing.🤣


I've met a few, have you met any proper Marines? By that I mean Royal Marine Commandos, have you met any Paras or any British military? They would be disgusted to be thought of as a bully even in jest. 
During the last war, American soldiers were issued with instructions on how to work with the British forces, good advice look it up. 😁


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> This is fair. We actually have an inside joke about how many Marines can be in a group before everyone succumbs to the group stupidity. Critical mass seems to be four, the size of our smallest fighting unit, the fireteam. Once you have 4 Marines in one place you are guaranteed to get stupid behavior or a fight.


Our RMs are trained to work on their own if necessary, as they say, being a Bootneck is a state of mind, no place for stupidity. It's hard to get in and the training is harder, you aren't shouted at to train you're expected to be able to have the self discipline and will to push yourself. If you need to be told what to do all the time then you're simply no use. It's worked well since 1664 😀


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## dvcochran (May 13, 2021)

Steve said:


> To be clear, someone who trains 4 days a week will certainly perform better than someone who trains 2 days per week, if all other things are equal.  So, I don't disagree with the point you're trying to make.
> 
> But the comment that it's just an unwillingness to exert oneself is a little judgy.  I may misunderstand Tez's comment, but I think there's a fundamental difference between someone who shirks their professional responsibilities, such as a fat cop or an unmotivated marine, and someone who can't train aikido or BJJ 5 days a week because he or she actually has professional and personal commitments.   Think of it like this.  For some people, BJJ is the donut that a cop might eat when he should be training.


Not trying to derail the thread. But the fat cop is a bad and a negatively charge example  right now.
I was really fast (4.4 speed) in my LEO years. I worked alongside heavy people who could nearly keep up with me in pressure situations. I also worked with lightweights that could do the same but performed poorly during in service training. 
Yes there were officers who were not that mobile but that was due to age as much as anything.

I hope this ties to the comment about willingness. Stressors can work for you or against you I believe. Mental ‘power’ in this context is very real and very powerful.


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## Graywalker (May 13, 2021)

D Hall said:


> View attachment 26695
> 
> Let's remember we're here for fun and not drive everyone else away with constant bickering.


Oh you guys are way to late, and in perfect company, in driving people away with constant bickering. I believe that is what martialtalks main theme really is.

Driving away people with constant bickering that is.


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## dvcochran (May 13, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Oh you guys are way to late, and in perfect company, in driving people away with constant bickering. I believe that is what martialtalks main theme really is.
> 
> Driving away people with constant bickering that is.


To be clear though; that is what some of the forums are for, like the last poster forum. 
I do not ever remember this happening in a style specific forum, jack wagons aside. 
This site is as diverse as possible when it comes to martial arts. It also offer forums for casual conversation so a person has to know where/when/what  they are responding to. 
It can be a double edged sword sometimes.


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## Graywalker (May 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> To be clear though; that is what some of the forums are for, like the last poster forum.
> I do not ever remember this happening in a style specific forum, jack wagons aside.
> This site is as diverse as possible when it comes to martial arts. It also offer forums for casual conversation so a person has to know where/when/what  they are responding to.
> It can be a double edged sword sometimes.


Diverse bickering, is still bickering...and is what runs a majority of people off. Keyboard warring, is getting old, in all categories.

It is simply not productive.


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## Tez3 (May 13, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Diverse bickering, is still bickering...and is what runs a majority of people off. Keyboard warring, is getting old, in all categories.
> 
> It is simply not productive.


One person's bickering is another's discussion. Often when people complain about bickering what they actually mean is they don't like being disagreed with.😁


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## MadMartigan (May 13, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> One person's bickering is another's discussion. Often when people complain about bickering what they actually mean is they don't like being disagreed with.😁


I think the problem he and I were addressing is: 
This site lists that there are currently 24824 members. While at the same time, there were only 10 actually online 
"Total: 308 (members: 10, guests: 298)"
Which appears to be somewhat of an average at any given time.

My working theory is many have joined; but few have stuck around. Many look as visitors, but do not join. If I was placing bets, I know where I'd put my money as the primary cause. Too many arguments about grammar or just circular arguments that no one actually want to solve or find common ground on... or stuff that has nothing to do with the topic at hand that go back and forth and on and on... kinda like that run on sentence just now 😁. 

The thought crossed my mind the other day. If I was a parent (with no MA background) researching which martial art to enroll my kid in. After reading portions of this site; I'd start looking into baseball or soccer. 

Too much 'keyboard warring' as he put it. Not enough of the mutual respect and comraderery that should fill a place like this.


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## dvcochran (May 13, 2021)

Graywalker said:


> Diverse bickering, is still bickering...and is what runs a majority of people off. Keyboard warring, is getting old, in all categories.
> 
> It is simply not productive.


Agree; arguing for the sake of arguing is unproductive; but we all do it, unconsciously at times. It never hurts to point that out to someone even though the attempt may be fruitless.


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## Graywalker (May 13, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> One person's bickering is another's discussion. Often when people complain about bickering what they actually mean is they don't like being disagreed with.😁


Horse crap, this is a bully excuse. Knew many of them in my days and they always say these lame excuses. (Kidding)😁


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## ShortBridge (May 13, 2021)

I participate in a few on-line fora and am a Moderator on one. They all settle into a culture and a pattern of behavior either by design or organically. It's tough to redirect that once it takes hold.

Some of this is just IRL martial arts community behavior too, though I have found the people tend to be cooler or come across that way in person than on-line. Hopefully that is true for me as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (May 13, 2021)

D Hall said:


> This site lists that there are currently 24824 members. While at the same time, there were only 10 actually online


Maybe the other 24814 members are out there training now instead of talking online! The offline members are the true enemy. They're getting ready to come for us any day now. We need to hone our keyboard skills in self-defense.


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## Urban Trekker (May 13, 2021)

D Hall said:


> Too much 'keyboard warring' as he put it. Not enough of the mutual respect and comraderery that should fill a place like this.


I'd say the comeradery and the thumb thugging go hand-in-hand.  The old regulars are gatekeeping.  But that happens in every forum, not just here.


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## drop bear (May 13, 2021)

Conversion is sparring not kata.


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## Graywalker (May 13, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I'd say the comeradery and the thumb thugging go hand-in-hand.  The old regulars are gatekeeping.  But that happens in every forum, not just here.


Yeah the gatekeeping, is a weird thing imo...and not at all constructive.


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## Graywalker (May 13, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Conversion is sparring not kata.


Intelligent conversation, would be Kata😁


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## dvcochran (May 13, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Conversion is sparring not kata.


Conversation? I have heard the acronym 'word sparring' many, many times.


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## Dirty Dog (May 13, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Conversation? I have heard the acronym 'word sparring' many, many times.


You have? I have not. Can you tell us all what the acronym W.O.R.D. S.P.A.R.R.I.N.G. stands for?


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## dvcochran (May 13, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> You have? I have not. Can you tell us all what the acronym W.O.R.D. S.P.A.R.R.I.N.G. stands for?


Haha. I cannot and yes, that was a bad choice of wording. Believe I was thinking of synonymous. 
Let's try it is the same as saying conversation equals 'word sparring'.


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## The Contender (May 14, 2021)

Dear Martial Arts Talk,

What trainings that will help win the fight in each different fights of opponents should go in the fighters head. He should use a couple of moves he needs to learn most importantly as practice. This may help faster training even with cops or people with day jobs that are busy. You may get faster execution on your moves you train most. Moreover, the enemy also has to do the correct moves as well. The enemy has to know what you are doing. He must train for you and many more enemies. He must have the right footwork at the right distance even strikes. The enemy must train to do these things (there are many enemies to train differently). Of course, sometimes the enemy knows how to do them. The question is does the enemy have luck as well sometimes?

I am a beginner, and I would like to learn more. 

Thank you and be safe!


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## Tez3 (May 15, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Maybe the other 24814 members are out there training now instead of talking online! The offline members are the true enemy. They're getting ready to come for us any day now. We need to hone our keyboard skills in self-defense.



There's also a big time difference between members, we've members from all around the world so it's unlikely you'll get huge numbers on at the same time.


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## Shatteredzen (May 18, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I've met a few, have you met any proper Marines? By that I mean Royal Marine Commandos, have you met any Paras or any British military? They would be disgusted to be thought of as a bully even in jest.
> During the last war, American soldiers were issued with instructions on how to work with the British forces, good advice look it up. 😁


Yes, I have worked with the Royal Marine Commandos several times, it helps that they didn't have nearly as much salt in their tea as you seem to. In my experience, the British military and its descendants like the Australian military have a very high level of competency and they are easy to work with. That said, they function very differently than the American military and have a totally different perspective on leadership, operations, etc that is overall incompatible with the way we do business. We can work well together, especially our special operations forces, but we are as foreign to each other as we could be from an organizational standpoint. Its simply comparing apples to oranges. American military are mostly much younger overall, half the privates in the RMC I have worked with were older than my staff NCO's and their most junior lance corporal I ever met was still in his early twenties. 

A USMC rifle squad by comparison will likely have a bunch of eighteen and nineteen year olds with a twenty or twenty one year old corporal, a twenty three year old sergeant and a staff sergeant or gunny who isn't even thirty yet as a patrol leader. As a young corporal I had been a squad/patrol leader many times before my 21st birthday, that's pretty much unheard of in the British military. Leadership in the British armed forces tends to be very top heavy although it tends to be very democratic at a squad level, lending towards the better base of experience and we can see this approach in US special forces units where a similar level of experience is the norm. US units tend to better distribute authority to lower levels and so junior NCO's tend to make most of the decisions and leadership gives more interpretive or abstract instructions, relying on the junior NCO's to "get it done". Both of these styles of leadership have their benefits and drawbacks, but I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to argue that the US Marines aren't effective at what they do or aren't the premier fighting force in the world, even your Royal Marine Commandos, who are better compared to our special forces, do not have the mission or the capabilities tasked to the US Marines, no one does.


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## Tez3 (May 19, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> Yes, I have worked with the Royal Marine Commandos several times, it helps that they didn't have nearly as much salt in their tea as you seem to. In my experience, the British military and its descendants like the Australian military have a very high level of competency and they are easy to work with. That said, they function very differently than the American military and have a totally different perspective on leadership, operations, etc that is overall incompatible with the way we do business. We can work well together, especially our special operations forces, but we are as foreign to each other as we could be from an organizational standpoint. Its simply comparing apples to oranges. American military are mostly much younger overall, half the privates in the RMC I have worked with were older than my staff NCO's and their most junior lance corporal I ever met was still in his early twenties.
> 
> A USMC rifle squad by comparison will likely have a bunch of eighteen and nineteen year olds with a twenty or twenty one year old corporal, a twenty three year old sergeant and a staff sergeant or gunny who isn't even thirty yet as a patrol leader. As a young corporal I had been a squad/patrol leader many times before my 21st birthday, that's pretty much unheard of in the British military. Leadership in the British armed forces tends to be very top heavy although it tends to be very democratic at a squad level, lending towards the better base of experience and we can see this approach in US special forces units where a similar level of experience is the norm. US units tend to better distribute authority to lower levels and so junior NCO's tend to make most of the decisions and leadership gives more interpretive or abstract instructions, relying on the junior NCO's to "get it done". Both of these styles of leadership have their benefits and drawbacks, but I don't think anyone in their right mind is going to argue that the US Marines aren't effective at what they do or aren't the premier fighting force in the world, even your Royal Marine Commandos, who are better compared to our special forces, do not have the mission or the capabilities tasked to the US Marines, no one does.



I'm sure you have inter-service rivalry and understand when one service says they are better than others............ 😂 I'm sure you understand as well tongue in cheek humour even though you're not British............

I think you'll find that these days the age range of our military has changed to a much younger demographic not always to the army's benefit. In the RAF and Royal Navy it's been long accepted that the older people may be less fit but have a wealth of experience and knowledge, also that rank in many cases is less importance than what they know. With the army the government has made a mistake, they want rank to be gained within a time constraint, if you don't get to lancejack for example by a certain time you are made redundant, services no longer required. This looks good on paper, no one staying a corporal for their whole career of 22 years but what you lost was that person's experience, their steadiness and 'seen it all, got the t shirt' air.  Not everyone wants to be a chief, some are happy as indians.

Our government is decimating our military so it may well be hypothetical shortly.


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## isshinryuronin (May 19, 2021)

Motobu Choki warned about taking the same 3 steps/kamae in a row, and never to do 4.  This seems to be good advice here.  IMO, this is the boundry between discussion and bickering.  Point, counterpoint, rebuttal and clarification all get to come into play and should be sufficient for the participants to make their point, to be agreed or disagreed with at the end.

The problem comes when participants seize on an inconsequential point to hammer on, or obtusely ignores a main point the poster is trying to make, just to be difficult


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## Shatteredzen (May 19, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I'm sure you have inter-service rivalry and understand when one service says they are better than others............ 😂 I'm sure you understand as well tongue in cheek humour even though you're not British............
> 
> I think you'll find that these days the age range of our military has changed to a much younger demographic not always to the army's benefit. In the RAF and Royal Navy it's been long accepted that the older people may be less fit but have a wealth of experience and knowledge, also that rank in many cases is less importance than what they know. With the army the government has made a mistake, they want rank to be gained within a time constraint, if you don't get to lancejack for example by a certain time you are made redundant, services no longer required. This looks good on paper, no one staying a corporal for their whole career of 22 years but what you lost was that person's experience, their steadiness and 'seen it all, got the t shirt' air.  Not everyone wants to be a chief, some are happy as indians.
> 
> Our government is decimating our military so it may well be hypothetical shortly.


This is the approach the US military uses and it indeed leads to a huge loss of experience. I have always admired the way the British/Aussie troops were able to have the experience at all levels of command and how that translated into a more mature force and how it gave the Regiments there own particular identities. We have a large military machine with a huge turnover, our approach works for us because most people will do their one contract and then get out. It would be a shame to see such a sea change within the UK's forces, I wonder if its a matter of them copying our methods out of hand or if there is an increase in turnover that is encouraging it?


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## dvcochran (May 19, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> This is the approach the US military uses and it indeed leads to a huge loss of experience. I have always admired the way the British/Aussie troops were able to have the experience at all levels of command and how that translated into a more mature force and how it gave the Regiments there own particular identities. We have a large military machine with a huge turnover, our approach works for us because most people will do their one contract and then get out. It would be a shame to see such a sea change within the UK's forces, I wonder if its a matter of them copying our methods out of hand or if there is an increase in turnover that is encouraging it?


I always assumed the percentages flattened that curve out a good bit. Like you say the U.S. troop force is huge so one would expect turnover to be higher. 
For everyone’s sake I sure hope the cream of our officer corp is staying in active duty and just not seen as often at the boot guys. 
Great thanks to everyone from every country for their service.


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## Tez3 (May 20, 2021)

Shatteredzen said:


> This is the approach the US military uses and it indeed leads to a huge loss of experience. I have always admired the way the British/Aussie troops were able to have the experience at all levels of command and how that translated into a more mature force and how it gave the Regiments there own particular identities. We have a large military machine with a huge turnover, our approach works for us because most people will do their one contract and then get out. It would be a shame to see such a sea change within the UK's forces, I wonder if its a matter of them copying our methods out of hand or if there is an increase in turnover that is encouraging it?



I think the main problem is successive governments appointing ministers in charge of the military with next to no knowledge of experience. They all want this 'super duper' military on a shoestring, where they can chart productivity as if it were a civilian company. I was sat in a meeting in the Garrison headquarters here a couple of years ago, it covered different departments. A civilian servant was up from London to give an overview of the latest government thinking, look he said, the Ministry of Defence is the only department that is not making a profit............. 😂

The regimental system in the army works very well here if a little incestuous at times, many in the battalions are related to each other, lots of brothers, cousins, father's and sons, they marry each other's sisters, are often the 10th generation in the regiment which recruits from a specific areas of the UK. It can make it difficult for the Corps that work with them being 'outsiders'. The  Celtic regiments are notorious for this but on the other hand they work unbelievably well together. The Royal Marines and Paras do as well but from Corps pride and ethos. 
This though led to tragic consequences though during the First World War, along with the forming of Pals Battalions, families lost all their men who were in the same battalions, the losses of the Pals Battalions meant villages and towns lost most of their men. 

I do think though that the way our government is slashing our forces, our military members will all be on first name terms with each other soon and living in one barracks block!


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## Buka (May 20, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Conversation? I have heard the acronym 'word sparring' many, many times.


Perhaps it's called Tongue Fu.


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## ShortBridge (May 23, 2021)

Buka said:


> Perhaps it's called Tongue Fu.


Well, it will NOW!


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 24, 2021)

Buka said:


> Perhaps it's called Tongue Fu.



the technqiue of the venom toungue more like.





dvcochran said:


> Agree; arguing for the sake of arguing is unproductive; but we all do it, unconsciously at times. It never hurts to point that out to someone even though the attempt may be fruitless.


Its important as far as i am concerned, need to question things not established as fact(and even then question them)the lack of the former leads to mc dojos and martial arts being applied to martially inspired dance and not just about fighting people.    Still love the old challange everyone to a duel thing, but times change.

Addendum: This is if we apply the principle to martial arts, it holds true to many subjects.   But this is actual argueing and questioning not "your stupid" each time.


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## Buka (May 24, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> Well, it will NOW!


Tongue Fu was a book my friend Sam Horn wrote. (Samantha)

It’s like the book Verbal Judo (I think that’s the proper title)

Both pretty good reads. Both deal with diffusing situations when it can be done verbally.


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## Steve (May 24, 2021)

Buka said:


> Tongue Fu was a book my friend Sam Horn wrote. (Samantha)
> 
> It’s like the book Verbal Judo (I think that’s the proper title)
> 
> Both pretty good reads. Both deal with diffusing situations when it can be done verbally.


We used Verbal Judo to train service reps.  A lot of good information that is very practical.  Not familiar with the other one (Tongue Fu).


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 24, 2021)

Steve said:


> We used Verbal Judo to train service reps.  A lot of good information that is very practical.  Not familiar with the other one (Tongue Fu).



No idea why its called verbal judo, when its rhetoric and arguing.    Arguing is a specfic subject, so is influencing people etc.  Its a mixture of psychology, english and philsophy.    Depends on which you would cover, how to form a argument is part of logic so phislophy, how to convince people is technically english.  The science of why it works, is philisophy. 

And like philosphy there are a million people out there who claim to know it and do it, who have zero formal education in it.  and books on it are many and quality is varied.   (been lucky the psych books i have gotten have gotten good reviews, granted ones closer to a science of book and covers examples of the principles, the other is a persuasion book. )

Addendum: Forgot to mention the academic books, the really over prices books students are mandated to buy and dont use nearly enough of it to warrant the purchase, i have not gotten one of them.    (although the crimninology books tempt me so greatly)   Its the book version of military trainers, rain or shine they will always have a market.


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## Steve (May 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> No idea why its called verbal judo, when its rhetoric and arguing.    Arguing is a specfic subject, so is influencing people etc.  Its a mixture of psychology, english and philsophy.    Depends on which you would cover, how to form a argument is part of logic so phislophy, how to convince people is technically english.  The science of why it works, is philisophy.
> 
> And like philosphy there are a million people out there who claim to know it and do it, who have zero formal education in it.  and books on it are many and quality is varied.   (been lucky the psych books i have gotten have gotten good reviews, granted ones closer to a science of book and covers examples of the principles, the other is a persuasion book. )
> 
> Addendum: Forgot to mention the academic books, the really over prices books students are mandated to buy and dont use nearly enough of it to warrant the purchase, i have not gotten one of them.    (although the crimninology books tempt me so greatly)   Its the book version of military trainers, rain or shine they will always have a market.


It's Verbal Judo because that's the title of the book.  It's not at all about rhetoric or arguing.  In fact, it's the opposite.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> It's Verbal Judo because that's the title of the book.  It's not at all about rhetoric or arguing.  In fact, it's the opposite.



Im aware its the title of the book but its become slang for rhetoric.  If the book is not about rhetoric then it doesnt seem proper thats what its replaced, or if you want a diffrent wording (if its more psych based) influence.    The words "verbal judo" have come to be synonomosu with Rhtoric or persuasion&influence. 

I have not actually read the book, so i dont know precisely what goes into it,  just working from how i have seen people use the words.


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## Steve (May 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> Im aware its the title of the book but its become slang for rhetoric.  If the book is not about rhetoric then it doesnt seem proper thats what its replaced, or if you want a diffrent wording (if its more psych based) influence.    The words "verbal judo" have come to be synonomosu with Rhtoric or persuasion&influence.
> 
> I have not actually read the book, so i dont know precisely what goes into it,  just working from how i have seen people use the words.


Okay, well for the sake of clarity, I am referring to the actual book.  We used the principles and techniques in the book to create some training, which we used to train service representatives.  It was very helpful in teaching them some practical techniques for de-escalating situations, avoiding arguments, and how to  communicate options rather than make excuses (among many other things). 

I can't speak to what "verbal judo" has evolved into in the common vernacular.  I honestly haven't heard anyone use the term in at least 2 decades, so that it has come to mean anything more is kind of a surprise.


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## Tez3 (May 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Okay, well for the sake of clarity, I am referring to the actual book.  We used the principles and techniques in the book to create some training, which we used to train service representatives.  It was very helpful in teaching them some practical techniques for de-escalating situations, avoiding arguments, and how to  communicate options rather than make excuses (among many other things).
> 
> I can't speak to what "verbal judo" has evolved into in the common vernacular.  I honestly haven't heard anyone use the term in at least 2 decades, so that it has come to mean anything more is kind of a surprise.



This is the first time I've heard it for years, as you say. I think it's probably a fairly dead term now, I haven't heard it being used for anything other than the book, don't think it's got any other meaning other than one person thinking it has.


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## ShortBridge (May 25, 2021)

Rat said:


> Im aware its the title of the book but its become slang for rhetoric.  If the book is not about rhetoric then it doesnt seem proper thats what its replaced, or if you want a diffrent wording (if its more psych based) influence.    The words "verbal judo" have come to be synonomosu with Rhtoric or persuasion&influence.
> 
> I have not actually read the book, so i dont know precisely what goes into it,  just working from how i have seen people use the words.



It's a good book. I'm not sure why you would debate it if you haven't read it, but I guess it's a little bit like explaining martial arts that you haven't trained in to people who have.


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## Deleted member 39746 (May 25, 2021)

ShortBridge said:


> It's a good book. I'm not sure why you would debate it if you haven't read it, but I guess it's a little bit like explaining martial arts that you haven't trained in to people who have.


Its not about the book, its about the usage of the term "verbal judo".       Thats pretty obvious by what has been written.         




Steve said:


> Okay, well for the sake of clarity, I am referring to the actual book.  We used the principles and techniques in the book to create some training, which we used to train service representatives.  It was very helpful in teaching them some practical techniques for de-escalating situations, avoiding arguments, and how to  communicate options rather than make excuses (among many other things).
> 
> I can't speak to what "verbal judo" has evolved into in the common vernacular.  I honestly haven't heard anyone use the term in at least 2 decades, so that it has come to mean anything more is kind of a surprise.


Wasnt really focused on you, forgot to addendum it in, it was just about the general topic line.   So it was easier to reply off of something similar i was going to tangent on. 

Can i get the TL;DR on what the book actually covers as i am not quite sure on what it covers now, i thought it was another persuasion and influence/rhetoric type book.


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