# ppko &  xequat take a look



## RRouuselot (Dec 17, 2004)

[font=&quot]ppko &  xequat

 Do you guys have opinion on this mpeg?[/font]

http://www.kyusho.com/eyeko1.wmv


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## bignick (Dec 17, 2004)

Hit the eye straight back into the brain?

Ummm.....what about that little think called the skull that's in the way?


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## RRouuselot (Dec 17, 2004)

bignick said:
			
		

> Hit the eye straight back into the brain?
> 
> Ummm.....what about that little think called the skull that's in the way?


 I couldn't hear the video so well but I think he said "the optic nerve goes straight into the brain" and the he mumbles something like "if I just blap the eye"


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## jjanke (Dec 17, 2004)

Did he warn the guy before potentially blinding him?

jjanke


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 17, 2004)

What a crock of horse dooky. As one who has intensely studied suggestive therapeutics (hypnosis, eyes open or closed) I have always noticed how the speakers set up a response expectancy prior to delivering strikes. The target ain't ducking, dodging, or even twitching naturally the people do when something is on it's way to their eye.

When I first started BJJ, there were a bunch of these 1-touch yahoos around the NLP and hypnosis circuits. I always betted them that I could choke them out long before they knocked me out (anything goes, the one to walk away wins). Most didn't take me up on it. The few who did slept well.

Dave


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## TigerWoman (Dec 17, 2004)

No kidding, I forgot about that.  Somebody in sparring got hit, heel in the eye and it did some permanent damage. Then we started having cage headgear.  TW


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## RRouuselot (Dec 17, 2004)

Thanks for the input but I was really wanting to hear from ppko & xequat.....


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## bignick (Dec 17, 2004)

I think I just developed a new one touch knockout....

How it works is this...you just stand there and I nail you in the head as hard as I can (which is pretty hard, if I do say so myself).....

I bet I can get pretty close to 100% success rate with this one...


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## ppko (Dec 17, 2004)

The gentleman in the video is Evan Pantazi he is over Kyusho International, that is not a KO that I would do, but to each there own seems effective, don't know what the long term effects would be though.


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## DeLamar.J (Dec 17, 2004)

Looks like some good acting to me. They deserve a gold moon man for that.


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## ppko (Dec 17, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Looks like some good acting to me. They deserve a gold moon man for that.


No the I have never seen anyone act like they have been KOd, sometimes though the person is not all the way out, but are instead daised, or they may go out for just a split second


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## RRouuselot (Dec 17, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> The gentleman in the video is Evan Pantazi he is over Kyusho International, that is not a KO that I would do, but to each there own seems effective, don't know what the long term effects would be though.


 So do you think that was an effective technique/KO?


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## ppko (Dec 17, 2004)

Like any other KO some work on certain people, but not on others, I have personally taken shots directly to the eye that was much harder than that and continued to go, last night was an example.  Me and Tony was going at it, full contact with gloves, well I didn't do much striking (allowing Tony to feel more comfortable striking) but I did go to take him down, he had me in a reverse headlock I went to sweep him (I was successful) while my right leg had swept my left had stayed put and I ran my knee into my eye, although I was stunned I contued on Tony didn't know I was stunned if so that would of been the end of me last night.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 17, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Like any other KO some work on certain people, but not on others, I have personally taken shots directly to the eye that was much harder than that and continued to go, last night was an example. Me and Tony was going at it, full contact with gloves, well I didn't do much striking (allowing Tony to feel more comfortable striking) but I did go to take him down, he had me in a reverse headlock I went to sweep him (I was successful) while my right leg had swept my left had stayed put and I ran my knee into my eye, although I was stunned I contued on Tony didn't know I was stunned if so that would of been the end of me last night.


  I am sorry was that an answer to my question or was that in reply to something else?

  Just in incase you misunderstood my question I'll ask it again:

    So do you think that(in the mpeg) was an effective technique/KO?


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## spatulahunter (Dec 18, 2004)

That looked pretty cheesy to me, i doubt it was real. On the other hand if it is real then that instructor shouldnt be teaching anymore. To just knock someone out like that would be dangerous and not needed. Our teacher will show us chokes that can knock someone out and he will put them on us but he also lets off before we pass out. Any way you look at it that guy is a retard


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

Here are some more mpegs of KOs....from that same site


http://www.kyusho.com/jackieoickle1.wmv

 On this site go to "locations" click some place on the map, the area school will pop up and then they usually have a KO mpeg....some of the cheesiest ones are from Europe and the mid-western states...like Ind., Ill, but all of them are just REAL bad.  Also of note is the section that says video clip were he try to tell people that during a UFC fight one of the fighters used a kyusho point to win. I saw that fight it was Gary Goodrich if I am not mistaken and Gary pound the living hell out of the which more than likely was the cause of the KO. 

    Watch the clip.its funny....

http://www.kyusho.com/KItoc.htm

    after you have seen those go to this URL, you will find 22 video clips

http://www.dillman.com/videos.asp

 The thing that amazaes me is the "KO's" from all the sites have one thing in common. The "attacker" is rarely if ever attacking.....99.99% of the time he is just standing there waiting to get hit. And they all tend to react just like the guy in the very first mpeg I posted..........

   Any opinions on that?


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> 1)The gentleman in the video is Evan Pantazi he is over Kyusho International, that is not a KO that I would do, but to each there own
> 2)seems effective, 3) don't know what the long term effects would be though.


 

 1)  I am well aware of who he is. One of his flunkys came to my dojo and got schooled never to return.



   2) Really? I guess so since the guy is standing as still as a lamp post! Also on interest is if you notice the hands being raised up when he is supposedly going out ..when people are knocked out they lose such muscular control and lifting your arms would not be possible. 



   3) Most likely none since the guy hits like a school girl.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> No the I have never seen anyone act like they have been KOd, sometimes though the person is not all the way out, but are instead daised, or they may go out for just a split second


 
 Really?? You should look at the mpegs on Dillman's site then.....they all pretty much act like that.


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## terryl965 (Dec 18, 2004)

Well some say great some say bad. All I know is some pressure will work but these on the clips look fake to me a light tap to the sid eof the face by the chin barely hitting is not going to knock me over sorry, I do not believeI'm overly strong or the greatest fighter but I do know how to abshrob a blow. When has a grabber just barely grabbed anyone and stood there. Pleae It takes pressure for the technique to actually work..


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## Xequat (Dec 18, 2004)

Aahhh, wish I could see it.  I'm at work now and I do 13- or 15-hour days, so I don't get much time at home for anything other than the wife except on my off-days and I can't watch streaming videos here.  If I remember, I'll watch them tonight and see what I think, but like I said, I'm open to others' opinions since I am pretty new to Kyusho.  (Is it capitalized?)


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## ppko (Dec 18, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I am well aware of who he is. One of his flunkys came to my dojo and got schooled never to return.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) I am proud that you know who he is, got video tape to back up this claim or even photos, date please
2)Like I said before somtimes you are just stunned or in a daize.


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## ppko (Dec 18, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Really?? You should look at the mpegs on Dillman's site then.....they all pretty much act like that.


I have said it before Robby (or is it Bob, Bobby, or Rob) sometimes the people are not all the way out or they may only be out for a split second


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## ppko (Dec 18, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here are some more mpegs of KOs....from that same site
> 
> 
> http://www.kyusho.com/jackieoickle1.wmv
> ...


And at all times (at least in DKI) when these KOs are filmed they are at a seminar setting, how are people expected to learn anything if we are going full boar.  Why don't we see some of your guys video clips I am sure you have some


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## MJS (Dec 18, 2004)

Before this thread gets locked..please keep the discussion at a friendly and respectful level!

Thank you

Mike


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## Paul Genge (Dec 18, 2004)

Whilst training with a friend of mine who is a biomechanic he accidently fell hitting his eye onto my knee.  The effect was to KO him for approximately 10 seconds despite the impact not being that great.  When I asked him what happened my friend explained that the optical nerve is the shortest one to the brain and that it had probably got jarred by the impact.

It is therefore probale that this is what is happening on this clip.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## ppko (Dec 18, 2004)

Paul Genge said:
			
		

> Whilst training with a friend of mine who is a biomechanic he accidently fell hitting his eye onto my knee. The effect was to KO him for approximately 10 seconds despite the impact not being that great. When I asked him what happened my friend explained that the optical nerve is the shortest one to the brain and that it had probably got jarred by the impact.
> 
> It is therefore probale that this is what is happening on this clip.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the insight


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## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 18, 2004)

is this a nomination for horror stories? bad budo?

what is being shown? an actual knockout on an undefending person? or a demonstration of what a ko might look like - except that the "victim" / "attacker" took ukemi on the way down (i.e. "acting")


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> 1) I am proud that you know who he is, got video tape to back up this claim or even photos, date please
> 2)Like I said before somtimes you are just stunned or in a daize.


  1) You are "proud' that I know him???? OK, what ever....as for video, we had this conversation before.

 2) Yes I am aware of that fact. However, even the folks that are supposedly "out" still don't fall like someone who is knocked out.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Thanks for the insight


 You mean your not going to ask him for video tape, photos, or dates??? :roflmao:


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> And at all times (at least in DKI) when these KOs are filmed they are at a seminar setting,
> 1) how are people expected to learn anything if we are going full boar.
> 2) Why don't we see some of your guys video clips I am sure you have some


 1) Or a better question might be how are you expected to learn if you don't? Anybody can hit someone if they just stand there....that's easy. Technique needs to be demonstrated with some realism, otherwise you won't know the proper way to move.  I think this is the best example of a "worked" technique I have ever seen  
http://www.kyusho.com/jackieoickle1.wmv

 2) I actually don't have any. When I go a seminar I am usually too busy training to hold a video camera. Do you have any video of you and Xequat?


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> 1) is this a nomination for horror stories? bad budo?
> 
> 2) what is being shown? an actual knockout on an undefending person? or a demonstration of what a ko might look like - except that the "victim" / "attacker" took ukemi on the way down (i.e. "acting")


1) Both!

 2) :idunno:


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## Tgace (Dec 18, 2004)

If it was truly "effective", I would say it was more an example of showmanship/magic and/or psychological manipulation far more than it was an example of a fighting technique.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> If it was truly "effective", I would say it was more an example of showmanship/magic and/or psychological manipulation far more than it was an example of a fighting technique.


 
   I was always under the impression that when demonstrating or practicing technique the uke (attacker) was actually supposed to attack. If the uke merely stands there and waits for it ANY technique will work.  The whole point behind a demonstration is to demonstrate that the technique works. 

  I don't know.....maybe things are different now.


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## Tgace (Dec 18, 2004)

Ive yet to see somebody hit the ground almost unconscious from a slap to the eye. Its a distracter yes, but come on.....


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## RRouuselot (Dec 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ive yet to see somebody hit the ground almost unconscious from a slap to the eye. Its a distracter yes, but come on.....


 
   I remember seeing Bob Sapp go to the ground in pain after getting a good swat which broke his occipital orb..didnt knock him out though.


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## TigerWoman (Dec 18, 2004)

My son, age 17, this Fall got a good hit from a football dead on center to his eye.  He had bleeding but thank God, the retina did not detach...nor did he lose consciousness or anything close.  

With the before mentioned post, the eye hit in sparring, his retina did detach and that guy also, did not lose consciousness from a heel into his eye.  TW


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## ppko (Dec 18, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) You are "proud' that I know him???? OK, what ever....as for video, we had this conversation before.
> 
> 2) Yes I am aware of that fact. However, even the folks that are supposedly "out" still don't fall like someone who is knocked out.


Date please, also you have claimed to had some of Georges students at your school names please


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## ppko (Dec 18, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Or a better question might be how are you expected to learn if you don't? Anybody can hit someone if they just stand there....that's easy. Technique needs to be demonstrated with some realism, otherwise you won't know the proper way to move. I think this is the best example of a "worked" technique I have ever seen
> http://www.kyusho.com/jackieoickle1.wmv
> 
> 2) I actually don't have any. When I go a seminar I am usually too busy training to hold a video camera. Do you have any video of you and Xequat?


2) I would have but the video camera that we was going to borrow broke, and I do not have on of my own


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## D.Cobb (Dec 19, 2004)

Hey Robert, I've hooked up with the Kyusho International guys down here, and none of us will accept it if we can't do it under pressure. A couple of us are from hard hitting styles and we like to play rough. When we go down from light taps we find it so funny that we roll around giggling like school girls.
One of these days we will get the video going, but like you we're to busy training to hold onto a video camera.

--Dave :asian:


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## RRouuselot (Dec 19, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Hey Robert, I've hooked up with the Kyusho International guys down here, and none of us will accept it if we can't do it under pressure. A couple of us are from hard hitting styles and we like to play rough. When we go down from light taps we find it so funny that we roll around giggling like school girls.
> One of these days we will get the video going, but like you we're to busy training to hold onto a video camera.
> 
> --Dave :asian:


    Dave, 



 Thats what I like to hear. I get tired of folks doing the knockm over with a feather techniques..just doesnt cut it. You and I have talk via email and shared ideas on training and what we think works and I have a lot of resepct for you. 

 Personally I dont care if people train with Muncy, Moneymaker, Dillman, or Beaver Cleaver(no I didnt stutter I said Dillamn).I have friends and former students of several of those afore mentioned folks.to me if you train in a no BS fashion and if you are uke and you dont take a fall but make the guy work for it thats all that counts. 

    Like I always saytechnique talks and BS walks


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## RRouuselot (Dec 19, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Date please, also you have claimed to had some of Georges students at your school names please


 I could ask you to answer all the questions I asked you in the past and you saw fit to dodge before I even consider answering yours.but at this point I dont even care

 Let's see.....I have a couple of options hereI could be like some of the other lamers I have seen on MT and not answer your question ...OR I could be a real wuss like someone on MT who shall go nameless and cry Thread Drift.Off Topic then go crying:waah: to the Mod Squad and report your post ..OR ..I could just give you an honest answer as best as I remember and give you an an answer I feel you deserve. 


 Dates: Thats a tough onewould have been over the last ten or twelve years or so starting in 1991 up to 1995ish(?)... 


 Names: Well, as far as Georgies peopleall of them only stayed for one class and that was around the above mentioned time frameactaully I don't recall what their names were....to be honest I wasn't that interested...so sorry cant help ya.first off even if I did remember I certainly wouldnt blast it over the Internet. Secondly, I have no idea what you want or need that info for. 

 Around 1999~2000 I had one of Moneymakers 4th dans from the U.K. come to one class.I know him because he worked at the same office with another student of mine. He popped in for one class, didn't do so well when demonstrating the techniquebunkai he had learned from Moneymaker, did even worse at bogu and never came back even when invited by my student and myself. He was a nice guy just couldn't swallow his pride. 


 Last summer I had a student of Patanzis (so he claimed) stop by as well, cant remember his name either....something French... He was a nice guy just not very skilled in MAs. I actually think he lied about his training. 
 If you think I made it up about having some of his guys come to my dojofine, I dont care. ....call me a "liar" if you want. I can suffer your slings and arrows. 
 Sorry, I cant remember every person that has walked through my dojo door over the last 15 years. The ones that stay and train I remember....the ones that don't are just "Budo Tourists" to me. 


 How shall I put this politely???? .Honestly, after reading some of your ideas and concepts on training and the way you conduct yourself here your opinion on anything doesnt rate very high in my book. 

 Earlier you tried to accuse me of promoting my own teacher and claimed I was saying what everyone else did was crap. Thats not the case at all. 

 I rarely if ever mention my teachers name on any internet board or even my profile for that matter.I cant do what my teacher does, and when the brown stuff hits the fan he is not going to be there to save me either. I dont ride on other peoples coat tales.

         I respect any martial artist that trains hard and trains with realism, or as much as the law will allow.:rofl: 

 D.Cobb is/was from Dillmans Assoc..that never bothered me in the slightest. I like and respect what D.Cobb says and the way he trains. I have MA friends in Tokyo that train in arts that dont really interest me but they train hard and train with realism.and I respect them for it. There are even a couple guys on MT that trained/train with me now. They do other arts, but they train hard, and train for real....and I respect them for it. 
 Its when people buy into Martial Voodoo type crap that belongs more in a comic book than a dojo is when they lose my respect.

 So ppko, you can take this thread anywhere you like, make all the insinuations about me you want, call me a liar, a cheat, a thief, an axe murder.whatever your heart desires.


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## ppko (Dec 19, 2004)

This is one of the best replys I have ever read from you.  Thanks for the answers, I had thought from your posts that you had these people over in a seminar setting I guess I was wrong.  I never thought you was lying I am just trying to find out who these people were.  Just so you know I do train very hard and with realism I always have.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 19, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> ..... I had thought from your posts that you had these people over in a seminar setting I guess I was wrong.....


 Nope, I don't give seminars. My skill level is not good enough.


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## Matt Stone (Dec 19, 2004)

I've trained with Robert, and whenever he told me to attack I tried to take his head off his shoulders.  Over the years I've been taught that if someone wants you to attack them, they will either be able to deal with your attack or not.  If they can't, then they need to go back and train some more.

Robert had no problem dealing with my attack at all.  I drove in as strongly as I could, and the next thing I knew I was looking at the ceiling wondering why I felt like I'd just French kissed a light socket...

I've had encounters with folks who told me "attack me," and then couldn't handle a real attack.  An aikido dojo I attended a number of years back had a senior student of that particular bent.  He told me to attack, and then told me to attack again but not so violently...  Whatever.    

Teaching a technique while your "opponent" is standing still is fine.  Then, once the technique is understood, have him attack at a slow pace and attempt to execute the technique.  Pick up the pace as performance quality increases, until the attack is full power, full tilt.

Anything else is BS, and everyone, including the folks who disagree with that training mentality, will agree that anything short of that will produce students who are ill prepared for the real world.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 19, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> I drove in as strongly as I could, and the next thing I knew I was looking at the ceiling wondering why I felt like I'd just French kissed a light socket...



Matt, do we really want to ask how you knew what that felt like?


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## RRouuselot (Dec 19, 2004)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Matt, do we really want to ask how you knew what that felt like?


 
   I don't even want to think about what Freud would say about that...


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## RRouuselot (Dec 19, 2004)

Here are a few more URLs with bogus techniquesthey are good for a laughenjoy


   this one has to be the saddest display of Kyusho I have ever seen bar none! This is the "Poster Boy" of BS kyusho!!
http://www.kyushojitsutuite.com/knockouts.html


   This is site is not bad really except the KO is pretty much of a joke
http://www.kyusho-uechi-ryu.co.uk/knockout.htm



   what can I say.....pure crap
http://www.ssmma.com/videos/multiple_attackers.mov


   This guy does a nice job of splitting his elbow open, go to the coconut splitting mpeg
http://www.ironpalm.com/


   The Chinese guy in the video is interesting but the wannabie Ninja just cracks me up.
http://www.bamboo-delight.com/swaz_exer.htm


  Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!
http://streetcombat.8m.com/


   The only one of them that has any real skill! My favorite! It truly reflects my opinion on "no touch KOs"!!!
http://www.kyushojitsutuite.com/KOs/notouchx.mpeg


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## Ceicei (Dec 19, 2004)

> Here are a few more URLs with bogus techniquesthey are good for a laughenjoy
> 
> this one has to be the saddest display of Kyusho I have ever seen bar none! This is the "Poster Boy" of BS kyusho!!
> http://www.kyushojitsutuite.com/knockouts.html


 
 With this URL you gave, it showed a list of different videoclips. I liked the one entitled "Unsuccessful No Touch KO". It also is the same as the last URL you gave.  I concur with you.

    - Ceicei


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## Drag'n (Dec 22, 2004)

Hahahahahahahah!
I thought the ninja was funny till I saw the last link.
Laughed so hard I nearly fell off my chair!
A truly great example of the effect of a no touch KO.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Dec 23, 2004)

That Dr. Wu's site is a scary thing. Dr. Wu is a Chinese chiropractor who is a member of the Aryan nations? What. Ev. Er.

And the poster boy of KO's...gimme a break. I wonder how long he can hold his breath...before the chokehold puts him to sleep. That remains one of my favorite replies to these bozo's. They tell me they could knock me out with a tap...I ask them, "You should try it while I shoot on you, pull you to the floor, pound you in the head a coupla times, and put you in a sleeper. Maybe you'll be able to knock me out while I'm choking you. By the way, how long *can* you hold your breath?". (Read my sig line...that question has been on there as long as I've been on MT...now you know where it comes from)

Dave


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## BlackCatBonz (Dec 23, 2004)

i must admit.....and no disrespect.....but that is some of the most fake and lame stuff ive ever seen.

shawn


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## D.Cobb (Dec 27, 2004)

Hey Robert, you got famous. Some people are bitching about this thread, over on the KI forum, where you got some of the clips.

--Dave


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## Seig (Dec 27, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Date please, also you have claimed to had some of Georges students at your school names please


NO! ABSOLUTELY NOT! YOU TAKE THAT OFF THE BOARD!
Seig
MT OPS ADMIN


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## RRouuselot (Dec 27, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Hey Robert, you got famous. Some people are bitching about this thread, over on the KI forum, where you got some of the clips.
> 
> --Dave


 Can you post the URL for it.....I can't seem to find it


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## Simon Curran (Dec 27, 2004)

OK then...:bs: 

I just looked at some of those links that were posted, and I have to ask, in all seriousness, are any of these guys actually supposed to be for real, or is it just an exercise in leg pulling, because I don't mean to offend anybody who perhaps studies such a style but really, come on!:mrtoilet:


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## RRouuselot (Dec 27, 2004)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> OK then...:bs:
> 
> I just looked at some of those links that were posted, and I have to ask, in all seriousness, are any of these guys actually supposed to be for real, or is it just an exercise in leg pulling, because I don't mean to offend anybody who perhaps studies such a style but really, come on!:mrtoilet:


 
 Sorry to say but some people think that crap will actually work on someone who is fighting back....


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## Simon Curran (Dec 27, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Sorry to say but some people think that crap will actually work on someone who is fighting back....


The mind boggles...
I for one am not going to be standing around waiting whilst somebody performs a jedi mind trick on me, I am more likely to be coming at them like th proverbial bull in the china shop...


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## TonyM. (Dec 27, 2004)

I emailed wu two years ago after reading some of his comments about training Women or "Blacks". Needless to say He needs to stay out of Vermont and New Hampshire.


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## D.Cobb (Dec 28, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Can you post the URL for it.....I can't seem to find it



I believe that this will take you there.

http://www.kyusho.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=001536


--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Dec 28, 2004)

Whilst not defending the staged way in which some of these clips were done, I will say this. The very first time I experienced a pressure point technique, my instructor told me to take his head off. Coming from an American Kenpo background, that is exactly what I tried to do. I still remember this like it was yesterday, it was the softest tap I have ever felt. My mind was telling me to hit him again as my body was folding up toward the floor. My goal, so far as so called kyusho goes, is to be that good.
I have been stopped in my tracks by, what felt like, a rub to my jaw. at the time I was trying to blitz him. He parried my strikes and just when I thought, "I've got him!" he gave me the softest caress along my jawline, and down I went. I remember thinking, as I went down, "this is not possible, I haven't even been hit!"

These strikes were done at full pace, and my intent was to hit him just once. For the record, I only ever got him once, and he never even flinched.
Also of note is the fact that I was never hurt as Uke, and this is the kind of pressure point techniques I want to pass on to my students. Not hurt, but incapable of continuing the attack.

--Dave


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## Simon Curran (Dec 28, 2004)

Hi again,

It's not that I am denying any validity to pressure point training, but standing and waving your arms around in front of someone's face, or even shouting from 15 feet away in order to KO...
Please excuse my cynicism, but I'm not convinced.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 28, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Hey Robert, you got famous. Some people are bitching about this thread, over on the KI forum, where you got some of the clips.
> 
> --Dave


 
 Famous might be an over statement..... ;-)

 One or two guys moaning about me being an "Internet warrior" and how everything is so "fair" over there and how everyone gets along so well.
 God forbid anyone challenge someone's ideas or concepts.....or even worse ask them to explain in detail their postion on a topic. 

 Whatever....if they want to train like those mpegs and put them on the Internet they will have to live with the fact that some people disagree with their methods.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 28, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Whilst not defending the staged way in which some of these clips were done, I will say this. The very first time I experienced a pressure point technique, my instructor told me to take his head off.......
> --Dave


 Dave, 
 Ya, but see that's just it. You actually tried to do something and were moving....which makes it far more difficult. 
 Those guys in the mpegs might as well be frozen.....hell anybody can take their time and hit someone where ever and when ever when that person is standing still. 
 It takes skill to pop someone that's moving.


----------



## Simon Curran (Dec 28, 2004)

I think we are in agreement there RROUSELOT,

Standing around waiting to be hti isn't my idea of proving a martial art's techniques, especially if that involves something as unconvincing as shouting in order to produce a knockout, if that were really possible, I'm sure that law enforcement and the military would have investigated it some time ago...


----------



## TChase (Dec 28, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here are a few more URLs with bogus techniquesthey are good for a laughenjoy
> 
> what can I say.....pure crap
> http://www.ssmma.com/videos/multiple_attackers.mov


Ahhhhhh yes.....American Kenpo at it's absolute worst. Actually, I have seen worse than that believe it or not.  Who is that guy anyway?


----------



## Turbo (Dec 28, 2004)

Here is the first person I ever saw do the eye ko:

http://www.ryukyu-kyusho.com/videoclips.htm

I wish you guys would quit harping on NO Touch KO's!  Who Cares!  *NO one has ever said they will use them in a fight situation!*  They are only using them as a training tool!  So What....You have guys breaking bricks with there head!  Like you need to practice your headbutt on bricks--rip on that for a while.

I went to a KI seminar in Oct and Master Corn Knocked me the F*** out!  I have no dought the strikes work!


----------



## D.Cobb (Dec 28, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Dave,
> Ya, but see that's just it. You actually tried to do something and were moving....which makes it far more difficult.
> Those guys in the mpegs might as well be frozen.....hell anybody can take their time and hit someone where ever and when ever when that person is standing still.
> It takes skill to pop someone that's moving.



Yeah I agree with you there, but the point I was trying to make is that some of those *SOFT* shots do actually work. I have been knocked wobbly by a rub. The softest of rubs along the jaw line.

I guess that actually shows the skill level of my former instructor, he could go soft at speed and still do the business.

--Dave :asian:


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 28, 2004)

Turbo said:
			
		

> Here is the first person I ever saw do the eye ko:
> 
> http://www.ryukyu-kyusho.com/videoclips.htm
> 
> ...


  1) I am sure you wish people would stop discussing them.
 2) People claimed that breaking stuff with your head was "just a training tool" and that was proven to be a useless and stupid exhibition just as "no touch KOs" have been. 
   3) Yeah I can KO people while they are standing still too....what's your point?


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Dec 28, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Ahhhhhh yes.....American Kenpo at it's absolute worst. Actually, I have seen worse than that believe it or not. Who is that guy anyway?


i cannot believe that there is worse out there......
i like the way the uke stands there to get his head knocked off with pirouettes and breakdancing after doing the most half hearted punch ever

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 28, 2004)

What do you guys think of these mpegs?

http://www.jimcornskarate.com/video.php?location=video/jimko1.mpg


 Here are some questions to consider:

 1) Is the "attacker" actually attacking or just standing there? 

 2) Does the demo show any kind of set up for "self-defense" tactic or is it merely showing some guy that has been "placed" in a postion and then whacked? 

 3) Should the person explain the technique and then actually do the technique with some degree realism? or just do it they way it is done on the mpegs?


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 28, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Yeah I agree with you there, but the point I was trying to make is that some of those *SOFT* shots do actually work. I have been knocked wobbly by a rub. The softest of rubs along the jaw line.
> 
> I guess that actually shows the skill level of my former instructor, he could go soft at speed and still do the business.
> 
> --Dave :asian:


 Dave, 

 Agreed. Soft shots do work. In fact that is one of my complaints with some of what I see on these mpegs. There is no need to pound someone into the ground with a technique. In fact hitting them really hard ....saying along the side of the neck is just like hitting them in the jaw with a cross. It's not "kyusho".


----------



## D.Cobb (Dec 28, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of these mpegs?
> 
> http://www.jimcornskarate.com/video.php?location=video/jimko1.mpg
> 
> ...



1) The attack is limited... that is the attacker has grabbed but there is no follow up.

2) No actual set up is being done, but in fairness, these vids are of something being taught. That being said, if it were me, I wouldn't post these because they are not realistic self defence. Then again, Jim Corn has a reputation for being extremely effective in what he does, and I have seen some stuff where he does it in motion.

3) i think for techniques being posted on the internet, maybe they could be explained and then done at speed. Intensity in the attack is what proves the effectiveness of the technique.

--Dave


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 28, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> 1) The attack is limited... that is the attacker has grabbed but there is no follow up.
> 
> 2) No actual set up is being done, but in fairness, these vids are of something being taught. That being said, if it were me, I wouldn't post these because they are not realistic self defence. Then again, Jim Corn has a reputation for being extremely effective in what he does, and I have seen some stuff where he does it in motion.
> 
> ...


 1) to me that might as well mean they are sleeping. You will fight the way you train. If there is not even a slight degree of realism the training is wasted time. Granted there is no need to go full out when learning but there should be an effort gradually increased to make it more and more realistic. Since most of the folks on those mpegs claim to be masters or at the very least have some lofty rank I would expect a better demonstration of technique. Demonstrating on a non-active person is not demonstrating how a technique works against an attack.its just demonstrating on how to hit someone standing still.


  3)  True


----------



## The Prof (Dec 28, 2004)

Believe it or not, this is a valid knock out.  I have been using it for years and it still gets peoples attention because they think that it's a set up.  But when I get to them and slap the biggest guy, the rest become instant believers. 

Don't get me wrong here, I am not a knock out artist.  I do not even know how it works, I just know that it does and I have been doing it (just this one) for nearly thirty years.  No one taught me, I stumbled upon it by chance while sparring in my younger years.

In my life I only used it one time in a real situation.  I did not mean to do it, it just came out and a very surprised young man went down.  It scared the heck out of me but he learned what my students have referred to for years as "The Old Prof's special course on instant respect."  Keep in mind now, that everything does not necessarily work on everyone.  So it pays to know a few.  (I only know one)

If there is anyone out there in the West Pal Beach area that wishes to see it or learn it, please contact me.  I have no secrets, what I know I will gladly teach.  
www.niseido.org
:asian:


----------



## MJS (Dec 28, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here are some questions to consider:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

The Prof said:
			
		

> Keep in mind now, that everything does not necessarily work on everyone.  So it pays to know a few.  (I only know one)
> 
> 
> 
> > REAL technique works on everyone....


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

I only really wanted to post on kyusho.com in response to a certain dipstick who based on all his vast knowledge about called me (read= none) an internet warrior and a Web Forum know it all. 

   Since I dont really have the time, or interest, to be jumping back and forth between here and kyusho.com I have invited the members on kyusho.com to come here and have a discussion on the mpeg issue. So far I dont see any takersI dont expect too many either since the kyusho.com people all want to huddle together and tell each other how right they are...even though I have posted I wont be participating on their BB any more people are still asking me questions   .I guess they dont read so well over there. Must be from all those kyusho shots to the eyes!


----------



## MJS (Dec 29, 2004)

The Prof said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong here, I am not a knock out artist.  I do not even know how it works, I just know that it does and I have been doing it (just this one) for nearly thirty years.  No one taught me, I stumbled upon it by chance while sparring in my younger years.


 


> (I only know one)



Question for you.  If this KO is the only one that you know, and you've been doing it for the past 30 yrs., then one would think that knowledge of the ins and outs of the tech. should be known, correct?

Now, I'm no PP expert, but I would think, that knowing what will happen when those points are hit, would be crucial.

Robert--Please feel free to give your input on this as well. :asian: 

Mike


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Question for you. If this KO is the only one that you know, and you've been doing it for the past 30 yrs., then one would think that knowledge of the ins and outs of the tech. should be known, correct?
> 
> Now, I'm no PP expert, but I would think, that knowing what will happen when those points are hit, would be crucial.
> 
> ...



   I have no idea what technique he is actually referring to. Knowing that would help in giving an answer.

   However, if someone was doing something for 30 years I would expect them to knew a little something about what they were doing.why or how it worked. 



   For example when I first see/try and learn a new technique after a while I try and figure out what will stop it, block it or otherwise make it ineffective. I do this so I will A) understand what is the right and wrong way to do the technique and B) so I can protect myself against it. If people are not taking the time to understand what they are doing then it seems like they are wasting time. in my opinion.


----------



## MJS (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I have no idea what technique he is actually referring to. Knowing that would help in giving an answer.
> 
> However, if someone was doing something for 30 years I would expect them to knew a little something about what they were doing.why or how it worked.
> 
> ...



Thank you Sir!! :asian:  :asian: 

Mike


----------



## TChase (Dec 29, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i cannot believe that there is worse out there......
> i like the way the uke stands there to get his head knocked off with pirouettes and breakdancing after doing the most half hearted punch ever
> 
> shawn


 
Watch this and you be the judge.

http://www.blackbeltlife.com/videos/massatt.wmv


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Watch this and you be the judge.
> 
> http://www.blackbeltlife.com/videos/massatt.wmv



The people are still coming in pretty slow.

At my second dan test, I had three BB come at me much faster.  We wore protective gear and I think my family thought I was going to be torn apart.  Yet, I am here.  I wish I could put that video on the net for comparison.


----------



## Ash_MT (Dec 29, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Watch this and you be the judge.
> 
> http://www.blackbeltlife.com/videos/massatt.wmv


lmao, that has to be the funniest thing I've seen all week.


----------



## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I only really wanted to post on kyusho.com in response to a certain dipstick who based on all his vast knowledge about called me (read= none) an internet warrior and a Web Forum know it all.
> 
> Since I dont really have the time, or interest, to be jumping back and forth between here and kyusho.com I have invited the members on kyusho.com to come here and have a discussion on the mpeg issue. So far I dont see any takersI dont expect too many either since the kyusho.com people all want to huddle together and tell each other how right they are...even though I have posted I wont be participating on their BB any more people are still asking me questions   .I guess they dont read so well over there. Must be from all those kyusho shots to the eyes!



Mr. Rouuselot,

As I said on the KI forum:



> But on the same note, when you first learned how to do something, did you go full bore? When learning to count, did you start with Calculus? When learning to walk, did you start with cartwheels and backflips? No, you start small. I agree that techniques should be practiced at more realistic speed and with more realistic situation, but you still have to start learning somewhere and it is easier to start with babysteps.


 and you responded with


> have yet to see any of those guys go "full-bore" in person or on mpeg....in fact the only person I see going "full-bore" is the "tori"/defender....the "uke"/attacker is not even really attacking...just kind of standing there waiting. How can you learn timing, ma-ai, focus, etc if you are defending against someone who isnt moving??
> You cantyou build up bad habits


.

I feel you may have misunderstood me.  The clips you are mocking are not of people training, but of techniques being demonstrated so that others can learn from them.  Most of them come from seminars and at the seminar are accompanied by explaination and then practice.  Now, I cannot speak of the training methods of everyone in KI, but I know that my training is done at much more realistic speed, but there is a difference between learning and training.  Could you learn by watching someone go full bore with pressure points?  Yes, you could.  But, and I am sure that even you can agree, that it is easier to learn if you can watch it a bit slower and observe the angles and points.

I understand that you had come under personal attack, but by reading the posts on the KI forums, I had a mental picture of you that has since changed from my reading here on MT.  I thought at first you might be, as was said, an Internet Warrior, but from reading more here it seems like you are just a fellow martial artist, who has become disenchanted by the number of "Mc-Dojos" out there that teach absolute garbage.  I agree with a great deal of what you have said, and if you ever happen into Indiana, USA, look me up.


----------



## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Watch this and you be the judge.
> 
> http://www.blackbeltlife.com/videos/massatt.wmv




Looks very Hollywood, but with cheap choreography.


----------



## wave (Dec 29, 2004)

Hi Robert

I was the one from kyusho.com who asked you about your training today. Will you answer me now?

Regards

Russell


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

TChase said:
			
		

> Watch this and you be the judge.
> 
> http://www.blackbeltlife.com/videos/massatt.wmv


 

 What a clown!


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Dec 29, 2004)

i thought that jody sasaki was a bigwig in AK circles......i hate seeing a martial arts clip that contains nothing martial........it was nothing more than a rip off of a jackie chan fight scene.

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Mr. Rouuselot,
> 
> 1) I feel you may have misunderstood me. The clips you are mocking are not of people training, but of techniques being demonstrated so that others can learn from them.
> 
> ...



   1)/2) Actually I understood you just fine. In those mpegs things were explained well enough before the technique was demonstrated. Why is it with all the video footage that has been made of those guys I have yet to see ANY mpeg with someone actually doing   something that even remotely resembles an attackeven at ¼ speed.nothing but folks standing there like lamp posts..that is not demonstrating technique.    



   3) People can see what the technique is supposed to be done like with some degree of reality.



   4) Basically I look at it this way. If some of the people on KI dont like me its a good thing.


----------



## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 4) Basically I look at it this way. If some of the people on KI dont like me its a good thing.




Why exactly would you wish for someone to dislike you?  Are you just that wonderful of a person that you feel that is missing from your life?


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

wave said:
			
		

> Hi Robert
> 
> I was the one from kyusho.com who asked you about your training today. Will you answer me now?
> 
> ...


  You mean to this question:
*



			1)How come you are so quick to call on other people and the way they train, but when asked questions of your own training, you refuse to comment?
		
Click to expand...

 *

  I don't refuse to comment. I answered you then.
  I was asked an extremely vague question by another member and gave the answer it deserved. 
 Do you have anything specific you want to know???.... because if you ask me something like 





> "how do you train pressure points?"


 I am not going to write out 30 pages on it. I simply do not have the time. 
  So if you have a specific, legit question I will do my best to answer it.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Why exactly would you wish for someone to dislike you? Are you just that wonderful of a person that you feel that is missing from your life?


 Ya see it's questions stated like this that won't get you far with me. 

 If folks like the ones on KI dislike me that means I am not associated with them or the crap they do. People like the ones on KI have turned the term "kyusho" into a friggin joke.....does that make sense to you?


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Agreed. *Soft shots do work.* In fact that is one of my complaints with some of what I see on these mpegs. There is no need to pound someone into the ground with a technique. In fact hitting them really hard ....saying along the side of the neck is just like hitting them in the jaw with a cross. It's not "kyusho".



My instructor trained with some DKI students for years and he showed us what some of them were doing.  We experimented and found ourselves successful when we were standing still.  As soon as we started moving, though, our success rate pretty much dropped off...and its frustrating because our forms are chock full of kyusho technique and points according to the DKI folks.

From the videos that you've shown and the stuff that I've seen on my own, I'm not inclined to believe that kyusho _works at all _ in more realistic scenarios.  I wish that I could see some examples to prove me wrong or actually be knocked out with a soft shot when I attack at full speed.  

And, I think, that is the real problem with showing technique like this.  A non-believer, or someone more neutral like my self, is not going to be convinced of their effectiveness if they are already familiar with hard training.  Personally, I feel like Kyusho could open up an entirely new way of viewing my arts, but as they say, "seeing is believing" and I'm not believing yet.

upnorthkyosa


----------



## TChase (Dec 29, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i thought that jody sasaki was a bigwig in AK circles......i hate seeing a martial arts clip that contains nothing martial........it was nothing more than a rip off of a jackie chan fight scene.
> 
> shawn


Nope, not at all.  Who ever told you that was lying or didn't know any better.  At least Jackie Chan looks like he's actually hitting someone.


----------



## MJS (Dec 29, 2004)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> My instructor trained with some DKI students for years and he showed us what some of them were doing.  We experimented and found ourselves successful when we were standing still.  As soon as we started moving, though, our success rate pretty much dropped off...and its frustrating because our forms are chock full of kyusho technique and points according to the DKI folks.
> 
> From the videos that you've shown and the stuff that I've seen on my own, I'm not inclined to believe that kyusho _works at all _ in more realistic scenarios.  I wish that I could see some examples to prove me wrong or actually be knocked out with a soft shot when I attack at full speed.
> 
> ...



Good post.  I'll admit that my thoughts are the same regarding PP.  As I said in a prior post, I am not an expert on PP, but from everything that I've seen, I have yet to see them being applied to someone giving some resistance.  Instead, its people standing like a statue, waiting for the KO.  Now, I am not saying that I doubt the effectiveness of PP, but again, when there is no resistance, it makes one wonder.  When there is no movement, its very easy to hit the exact spot, but when you add that movement in, its going to change.

Mike


----------



## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Ya see it's questions stated like this that won't get you far with me.
> 
> If folks like the ones on KI dislike me that means I am not associated with them or the crap they do. People like the ones on KI have turned the term "kyusho" into a friggin joke.....does that make sense to you?



Yes and no.  It seems that you believe that we are not training pressure point use in realistic situations because we do not have videos showing it.  On the same note, you don't have videos either so should I draw the same conclusion about you?  As I said above, I cannot speak for everyone, but I know how I train.  I know how my dojo trains.  Just because we do not have videos of this training, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.....does that make sense to you?


----------



## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I am not going to write out 30 pages on it. I simply do not have the time.
> So if you have a specific, legit question I will do my best to answer it.



Ok, do you train for realistic pressure point use?  If so, could you describe a few of the methods that you use?  

I hope I was specific enough.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Good post. I'll admit that my thoughts are the same regarding PP. As I said in a prior post, I am not an expert on PP, but from everything that I've seen, I have yet to see them being applied to someone giving some resistance. Instead, its people standing like a statue, waiting for the KO. Now, I am not saying that I doubt the effectiveness of PP, but again, when there is no resistance, it makes one wonder. When there is no movement, its very easy to hit the exact spot, but when you add that movement in, its going to change.
> 
> Mike


   So let me ask you this. Dont you think these people that demo on those mpegs would better serve their purpose of demonstrating technique by showing some technique done with a bit of realismmeaning having some one attack with a bit movement (I say a bit of realism since we all know demos are not an actual fight.)


----------



## MJS (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> So let me ask you this. Dont you think these people that demo on those mpegs would better serve their purpose of demonstrating technique by showing some technique done with a bit of realismmeaning having some one attack with a bit movement (I say a bit of realism since we all know demos are not an actual fight.)



Yes sir, I do.

Mike


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> 1)Yes and no. It seems that you believe that we are not training pressure point use in realistic situations because we do not have videos showing it.
> 
> 2)On the same note, you don't have videos either so should I draw the same conclusion about you?
> 
> 3)As I said above, I cannot speak for everyone, but I know how I train. I know how my dojo trains. Just because we do not have videos of this training, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.....does that make sense to you?


 

    1)Why dont you have mpegs of it? I mean even on your own website (found here http://www.russellstutely.com/videoclip.htm) you have all kinds of mpegs EXCEPT something showing an attacker actually moving. 

 2)Thats a ridiculous conclusion. Just as a person doesnt need to be a Gourmet to know that the food on the plate in front of him is rotten, one doesn't have to be an expert in kyusho to see that the "attacker" in those mpegs is not really doing much beside standing there waiting to get smacked. 



 3)Again why not? Why dont you throw up some mpegs of something a little more realistic in nature? Like I said above you have just about everything else on there.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> 1)Ok, do you train for realistic pressure point use?
> 
> 2) If so, could you describe a few of the methods that you use?
> 
> 3)I hope I was specific enough.


 


 1)I train for realistic situations, not for "tippy-tap crap" tournaments or cute little mpegs I can post on a website. I train my students, military and others, to save livesbe it their own or someone elses. One thing with you guys on KI..you over emphasizes kyusho and not enough emphasis on more fundamental techniques..but I guess it's the "shock and awe" effect of people seeing what you call "kyusho" that puts "bums in seats" (puts students/money in the dojo)....judging from some of the guts I see on those guys in the mpegs a good cardio workout now and then wouldnt hurt either. 

 2)Beginners are shown technique using a more advanced student as a crash dummy and its done at a fairly realistic speed. Sometimes, depending on the beginners level, its done on them so they can feel the technique. Feeling technique is one of the best ways to know how it works. Next, students move from basic technique motion to more advanced motion. Eventually they put on some protective gear and try it under fairly realistic conditions. This improves reaction speed, element of surprise, working under stress etc..this is only a brief description of some of the methods used. 


     3)It was better than the other guys question


  So let me ask you a question now.
  What's the difference between kyusho and atemi?


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> [font=&quot]ppko & xequat
> 
> Do you guys have opinion on this mpeg?[/font]
> 
> http://www.kyusho.com/eyeko1.wmvhttp://www.kyusho.com/eyeko1.wmv


i believe this is what he said in the video on roberts first post.

"then i read somewhere that the optic nerve just goes straight into the brain, and i thought that was cool, so i just blap the eye......."

is this the kind of anatomical and physiological training that these guys get?
no real understanding of structure or function? no understanding of reflex or nervous system phenomenon?

i think i would steer way clear

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i believe this is what he said in the video on roberts first post.
> 
> "then i read somewhere that the optic nerve just goes straight into the brain, and i thought that was cool, so i just blap the eye......."


    That's what I thought I heard too...... maybe we should invite Patanzi here to asnwer that question.......:idunno:..... But I guess since we at MT arent all connected to his association in some way (like they are at kyusho.com) he most likely wont be coming away from his cozy little clique at kyusho.com where everyone goes around telling each other how great the other guy's farts smell.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

Here we have an example of "kiai jutusu" .....
http://www.markklineskarate.com/ClipsnEvents.htm

 Any comments?


----------



## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)Why dont you have mpegs of it? I mean even on your own website (found here http://www.russellstutely.com/videoclip.htm) you have all kinds of mpegs EXCEPT something showing an attacker actually moving.
> 
> 2)Thats a ridiculous conclusion. Just as a person doesnt need to be a Gourmet to know that the food on the plate in front of him is rotten, one doesn't have to be an expert in kyusho to see that the "attacker" in those mpegs is not really doing much beside standing there waiting to get smacked.
> 
> ...




1)  I am not Russel, my name is Eric (as shown by my name here).  That site does not belong to me.
2)  Why is that a ridiculous conclusion?  I am not contesting that the person in the mpegs you are bashing is just standing there, the uke is just standing there.  See, we agree on that.  What I am contesting is the general attitude in your posts that suggests you believe that none of us train with realism.
3)  Again, I don't have a site.


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1)I train for realistic situations, not for "tippy-tap crap" tournaments or cute little mpegs I can post on a website. I train my students, military and others, to save livesbe it their own or someone elses. One thing with you guys on KI..you over emphasizes kyusho and not enough emphasis on more fundamental techniques..but I guess it's the "shock and awe" effect of people seeing what you call "kyusho" that puts "bums in seats" (puts students/money in the dojo)....judging from some of the guts I see on those guys in the mpegs a good cardio workout now and then wouldnt hurt either.
> 
> 2)Beginners are shown technique using a more advanced student as a crash dummy and its done at a fairly realistic speed. Sometimes, depending on the beginners level, its done on them so they can feel the technique. Feeling technique is one of the best ways to know how it works. Next, students move from basic technique motion to more advanced motion. Eventually they put on some protective gear and try it under fairly realistic conditions. This improves reaction speed, element of surprise, working under stress etc..this is only a brief description of some of the methods used.
> 
> ...




I am quite happy to have recieved an answer to my questions.  We are making progress toward further understanding one another.  As for your question for me, honestly I do not know.  I could Google it, but then all I would be showing is that I know how to use the internet.  As you can see from my info, I am just a Yellow Belt in my current art (which happens to be where I am learning PPs).  I apologize for not giving a more informed answer.  Perhaps you could enlighten me?


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Here we have an example of "kiai jutusu" .....
> http://www.markklineskarate.com/ClipsnEvents.htm
> 
> Any comments?


Mark is a phenominal martial artist, regardless of what these clips make you think.  Personally, I cannot comment on the Kiai-jitsu stuff, as I have not experienced it.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> 1)  I am not Russel, my name is Eric (as shown by my name here).  That site does not belong to me.
> 2) Why is that a ridiculous conclusion? I am not contesting that the person in the mpegs you are bashing is just standing there, the uke is just standing there. See, we agree on that. What I am contesting is the general attitude in your posts that suggests you believe that none of us train with realism.
> 3)  Again, I don't have a site.


 1) I see

 2) Your conclusion lacks any sense of logic. and if those folks train with realism as they claim why is that they have yet to show any of it on their mpegs......they might as well since they show everything else EXCEPT that.

 3) So if I applied your logic it would mean you don't train since you don't even have a website to put your mpegs on.


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) I see
> 
> 2) Your conclusion lacks any sense of logic. and if those folks train with realism as they claim why is that they have yet to show any of it on their mpegs......they might as well since they show everything else EXCEPT that.
> 
> 3) So if I applied your logic it would mean you don't train since you don't even have a website to put your mpegs on.



2) As I have said, I cannot speak for other members of KI, only myself and the dojo I belong to.  If other members of KI do not train realistically, there is nothing I can do about it.

3) Well said, and you could draw that conclusion.  I was not trying to say that you do not train, I was only pointing out the flaw in your logic.


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

Robert (if I may address you by your first name),

A bit off topic, but I was wondering.  Since you have been using the system of  Oyata Seiyu for a while now, I was wondering what you think of it in terms of weaknesses and such.  Also, I was considering stopping by Taika Seiyu Oyata's dojo in Independace Missouri the next time I go home to see my family, do you think it would be a productive idea?

Eric


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> I am quite happy to have recieved an answer to my questions. We are making progress toward further understanding one another. As for your question for me, honestly I do not know. I could Google it, but then all I would be showing is that I know how to use the internet. As you can see from my info, I am just a Yellow Belt in my current art (which happens to be where I am learning PPs). I apologize for not giving a more informed answer. Perhaps you could enlighten me?


 I seriously doubt you could get a correct answer by "Googleing" it......I doubt Patanzi even knows the difference since much of what he claims is "kyusho" is not. 
 Give you an answer? I think not. I let you find that out on your own. A few other people on MT asked me what the answer was and I emailed them the answer. However, these are people I know fairly well either through the internet or from face to face meetings. Somethings I will gladly share with anyone that asks if I know the answer. Other information I will not plaster on the internet because certain people use it to make them sound more legit or sound as if they know what they are talking about. Case in point, the folks that claim to be using a "kyusho" point on the neck to KO someone.....it's not a kyusho point.....someone said it was and now everyone thinks it is, but actually it is not.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> 3) Well said, and you could draw that conclusion. I was not trying to say that you do not train, I was only pointing out the flaw in your logic.


 
 Which is what? That I know what I saw. You were the one that assumed I meant they don't train realistically. I merely stated what I saw in the videos. You drew the wrong conlusion from my comments.


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> I seriously doubt you could get a correct answer by "Googleing" it......I doubt Patanzi even knows the difference since much of what he claims is "kyusho" is not.
> Give you an answer? I think not. I let you find that out on your own. A few other people on MT asked me what the answer was and I emailed them the answer. However, these are people I know fairly well either through the internet or from face to face meetings. Something I will gladly share with anyone that asks if I know the answer. Other information I will not plaster on the internet because certain people use it to make them sound more legit or sound as if they know what they are talking about. Case in point, the folks that claim to be using a "kyusho" point on the neck to KO someone.....it's not a kyusho point.....someone said it was and now everyone thinks it is, but actually it is not.



Not to mince words, but you are a bit confusing sir.  You say that you will not tell me the difference, yet three sentences later you say that you would tell anyone who asks.  Why would you not share this information with me then?  Is it due to my affiliation with KI?  If so, I understand your bias, although I do not agree with it.
On another note, I am quite happy that our discussion is becoming productive and that I am understanding where you are coming from.


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Which is what? That I know what I saw. You were the one that assumed I meant they don't train realistically. I merely stated what I saw in the videos. You drew the wrong conlusion from my comments.



Then please accept my apology for misunderstanding.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Robert (if I may address you by your first name),
> 
> A bit off topic, but I was wondering. Since you have been using the system of Oyata Seiyu for a while now, I was wondering what you think of it in terms of weaknesses and such. Also, I was considering stopping by Taika Seiyu Oyata's dojo in Independace Missouri the next time I go home to see my family, do you think it would be a productive idea?
> 
> Eric


 

 Define weaknesses

   As for going to his dojo feel free. If he is not in town there are plenty of other member dojo you can stop by. In fact I would recomend you go to an Assoc. dojo first. Send me an email and I can introduce you to some.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Not to mince words, but you are a bit confusing sir. You say that you will not tell me the difference, yet three sentences later you say that you would tell anyone who asks. Why would you not share this information with me then? Is it due to my affiliation with KI? If so, I understand your bias, although I do not agree with it.
> On another note, I am quite happy that our discussion is becoming productive and that I am understanding where you are coming from.


 Read it again.......

*Somethings I will gladly share with anyone that asks if I know the answer. Other information I will not plaster on the internet because certain people use it to make them sound more legit or sound as if they know what they are talking about.*


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Define weaknesses
> 
> As for going to his dojo feel free. If he is not in town there are plenty of other member dojo you can stop by. In fact I would recomend you go to an Assoc. dojo first. Send me an email and I can introduce you to some.



By saying weaknesses, I was asking if there was anything you felt was missing from the system.  I ask because I personally miss a few of the practices from my training in Shaolin Lohan Chuan such as Iron Body training.

Thank you for the offer.  I will be dispatching an email to you shortly.


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## MJS (Dec 29, 2004)

Looking over the last few posts, a few things are apparent.

1-  Lots of mpegs that are showing variations of KOs.

2-  No realism in said mpegs.

3- Claims that people do train KO applications with realism.

So...what I believe is trying to be determined here, is....If there are people out there that are doing them with realism, why are they not being posted?  That is a quesstion that I, as well as some others on here are curious of.  As it was said before, if they were posted, I think that it would clear the air, so to speak.

Mike


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Read it again.......
> 
> *Somethings I will gladly share with anyone that asks if I know the answer. Other information I will not plaster on the internet because certain people use it to make them sound more legit or sound as if they know what they are talking about.*



Sorry about that, I misread it.  Although, from what I have read (yes I googled it), it seems that Atemi are more generalize striking areas whereas Kyusho is more precise.  I understand that this may be off base, but with so many unwilling to share truth, deceit and misinformation runs rampant.


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## EricD (Dec 29, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Looking over the last few posts, a few things are apparent.
> 
> 1-  Lots of mpegs that are showing variations of KOs.
> 
> ...



Personally, I have no video camera.  When I talked to my sensei before Christmas, he said he would be getting a camera in the near future.  Once he does, I will personally see what I can do about getting some more realistic clips on the net.


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## MJS (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Personally, I have no video camera.  When I talked to my sensei before Christmas, he said he would be getting a camera in the near future.  Once he does, I will personally see what I can do about getting some more realistic clips on the net.



Thanks for the offer!    This however was not a specific request of you, but of anyone putting mpegs online.  IE- Corn, Pantazi, etc.

Mike


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## RRouuselot (Dec 29, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Sorry about that, I misread it.  Although, from what I have read (yes I googled it), *it seems that Atemi are more generalize striking areas whereas Kyusho is more precise.* I understand that this may be off base, but with so many unwilling to share truth, deceit and misinformation runs rampant.


 
 Not even close.


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## The Prof (Dec 30, 2004)

For me, I always do it defending against an attack. It really is a pretty neat technique.  You can decide just how hard you wish to ring the attackers bell.
As I said, I am not a knock out artist, I do not know how it works, I just know that it works.  And at age 65, it's a great weapon to have.


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## Simon Curran (Dec 30, 2004)

I just checked out the Jodie Sasaki clip (time differences you understand...) and I, as a student of Kenpo find that quite insulting, it may not be my place to criticise someone of his rank, but that sort of thing makes the rest of us look like jokes...


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

The Prof said:
			
		

> 1) For me, I always do it defending against an attack.
> 2) It really is a pretty neat technique.  You can decide just how hard you wish to ring the attackers bell.
> As I said, I am not a knock out artist, I do not know how it works, I just know that it works. And at age 65, it's a great weapon to have.


 1) Do what?

 2) What technique?


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Any thoughts on this one?

http://www.kyusho.com/clip.htm


 My first thought is I don't care if you even do that technique fast or slow it would be bloody hard/ impossible to get an attacker's hand out like that while his other hand was doing nothing if he was really trying to kick your ***, but I guess in Kyusho Internationals world that kind of stuff is possbile. 


      Here is the dialogue from that thread......learning from the Internet ???? Good gravy.....what's next?


       [font=Verdana, Arial]* Evan Pantazi *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Administrator 
      Member # 2 

[/font]   
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 05, 2004 09:46 AM

 [/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial] Here is Randall Sanchez KOing a skeptical Ninjitsu practioner.... he is now aware that it does work...  click here!

      [ December 05, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: Evan Pantazi ]

     --------------------
     Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
[/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *8865* | From: *North Andover, Ma 01845* | Registered: *Dec 2000*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]*

  bja *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Member 
      Member # 580 

[/font]   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 05, 2004 10:41 AM   

 [/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial] hey everyone,

*awesome, the proof is in the puddin. and to think Mr. sanchez first started learning through the internet didnt he? great job!* 
     -Brian [/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *127* | From: *new york* | Registered: *Nov 2002*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]* Evan Pantazi *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Administrator 
      Member # 2 

[/font]   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 06, 2004 08:05 AM[/font][font=Verdana, Arial]Yes sir he did and it shows the real value of the correct use of this forum.

     --------------------
     Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
[/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *8865* | From: *North Andover, Ma 01845* | Registered: *Dec 2000*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]* André Dippenaar *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Junior Member 
      Member # 1507 

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 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 07, 2004 12:16 AM[/font][font=Verdana, Arial]Hi there,

 I don't know if its just me, but I can't seem to see the Randall KO clip. The above link take me to the Ian Bissix grappling KO clip, and the video clip tab on the left takes me to the Costa Rica KO clip? [/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *3* | From: *Johannesburg, South Africa* | Registered: *Aug 2004*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]* Evan Pantazi *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Administrator 
      Member # 2 

[/font]   
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 07, 2004 07:00 AM[/font][font=Verdana, Arial]Sir, 

 Try clearing the history pages and the cookies in your computer, you may be kicking back to an earlier clip of the week page in memory.

     The link is http://www.kyusho.com/clip.htm  cut and paste that in the address of the browser and you will see Randall Sanchez's clip... but only until Sunday.

     --------------------
     Evan Pantazi
www.kyusho.com
[/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *8865* | From: *North Andover, Ma 01845* | Registered: *Dec 2000*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]* Eric Dyl *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Junior Member 
      Member # 1359 

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 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 07, 2004 11:35 [/font][font=Verdana, Arial]And try hitting refresh when looking at the page to force the browser to get a newer copy.

     --------------------
     There is no path to peace, peace is the path
          -Ghandi
[/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *29* | From: *North Vernon, IN* | Registered: *May 2004*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]* André Dippenaar *[/font] 
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 [font=Verdana, Arial] posted December 08, 2004 01:55 AM [/font][font=Verdana, Arial]Thanks for the advice! However, I am still not having any luck... I think it might have something to do with the proxy setup here at work. The proxy server might be transparantely caching the page, and this cache is out of date. So even though the page is new it keeps on picking up the old cache. I will probably have to wait for the cache to expire. [/font]  [font=Verdana, Arial]  Posts: *3* | From: *Johannesburg, South Africa* | Registered: *Aug 2004*    |  IP: Logged [/font]          [font=Verdana, Arial]* Evan Pantazi *[/font] 
     [font=Verdana, Arial] Administrator 
      Member # 2 
[/font][font=Verdana, Arial]..................................................


[/font]  Eric, 



   If I could give you some advice. Do not study or get involved with anyone that advocates training via the internetregardless of who it is. 

   This guy Patanzi obviously thinks its OK to train via the internet which just lowers my opinion of him even more.

   Seek out someone that can walk it like they talk it.when I say that if they want you to be the crash dummy for their technique demo ask them if you can go as hard at them as you want and dont hold back. If they cant get the technique to work as they claimed it would train somewhere else.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> By saying weaknesses, I was asking if there was anything you felt was missing from the system. I ask because I personally miss a few of the practices from my training in Shaolin Lohan Chuan such as Iron Body training.
> 
> Thank you for the offer. I will be dispatching an email to you shortly.





   The only weakness I can think of was making his seminars open to non-student/association members back in the early 80s  What happened is people with no real understanding came to a few seminars and thought they knew everything.and now we have more than a few  kyusho hacks running around showing poor technique.


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## wave (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> You mean to this question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Robert

Thanks for the reply. I hope we can now move forward with some enlightening discussion. I trust that we are agreed on the following

The vast majority of clips showing k.o's are BS
If they are done to show how the body is weak in certain areas and not be termed combative that is different?
The vast majority of the "PP Masters" are training unrealistically
Some clips are done to encourage an interest in the arts - I see nothing wrong in this

This of course opens up a whole new can of worms. I have stated publically on many forums, inc KI, that anyone who K.O's a seminar attendee is a complete w^&%er and that I volunteer to be the uke as long as I can attack with the ferocity and venom that I would for real. Not one of these "PP Masters" has taken up my offer.

My question to you is, If you had to make an mpeg for a website that was designed to show the effectiveness of Kyusho (for want of another term) what would the clip show?

I have noticed that you are lumping my video clips into the same bracket as KI. This is something I am non too pleased about. Of the 15 clips on my site, two are slow demo's of a PP K.O and are described as just that, DEMO's!

4 are joke clips - don't make the obvious joke

The rest have nothing to do with Kyusho, they show things such as power generation and putting shock into your opponent.

Those that know me, understand that our training is regarded as extremely hard. We train very realistically. The calibre of people associated with what we do is proof of that.

We have many fighters at my gym from Boxing, Kick Boxing, Thai Boxing and MMA. One of my students has now turned pro as a Heavyweight Boxer and is ranked 15th in the UK. The vast majority of my UK Students are / were Doormen, military, LEO's, etc.

Don't judge people by your obsession with these mpegs all over the Internet. You and I are probably closer in what we think of them than is obvious right now.

Regards

Russell
www.russellstutely.com


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

wave said:
			
		

> Hi Robert
> 
> Thanks for the reply. I hope we can now move forward with some enlightening discussion. I trust that we are agreed on the following
> 
> ...


 

   I have some pretty good video of my teacher demonstrating technique..not all of it kyusho.and not all KO, just good technique. The problem is I have no way to get it from ntsc video to mpeg at the moment.this is mostly due to lack of technology on my part as well as time. 

   Another gripe I have with internet kyusho folks..they think every attack can be solved by kyusho (most of them are not really even doing kyusho by the way).I guess kyusho is the only way to get someones attention long enough to get their wallet open though.


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Do what?
> 
> 2) What technique?



I'm wondering the same thing?? :idunno: 

I'm also still waiting for his answer to post #78.

Mike


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on this one?
> 
> http://www.kyusho.com/clip.htm
> 
> ...



Agreed!  If you're going to show the fine points of the KO, then yeah, go ahead and do it slow like that, but then you should show it with...whats that word again....* realism!!! *




> Here is the dialogue from that thread......learning from the Internet ???? Good gravy.....what's next?
> 
> 
> [font=Verdana, Arial]* Evan Pantazi *[/font]
> ...



Once again, some sage advice Robert! :asian:   Seeking out a qualified teacher is the way to go, not learning from a tape or via the net.

Mike


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## EricD (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Any thoughts on this one?
> 
> http://www.kyusho.com/clip.htm
> 
> ...




Two things,

1) The clip that particular thread was refering to is no longer the clip of the week.  But you can find it here: http://www.kyusho.com/randallsanchez11.wmv
2)  My sensei is just the type of guy you said for me to seek out.  He believes that too many talk to much while too few can just hit 'em.  He has no problem with moving KO's and in fact the great majority of our PP training is done at increasing levels of speed and force.


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## Bod (Dec 30, 2004)

> _R Rouuselot_: Any thoughts on this one?
> 
> http://www.kyusho.com/clip.htm



I was impressed with the way I clicked the link and it actually played. I usually find it a lot harder to make this sort of thing work.

The technique seemed to be a combination of a chop to the neck (that always hurts / stuns) a trip to the knee and a tendon squeeze on the outstretched arm. In controlled circumstances I have dropped people to the ground with the tendon squeeze alone.

Once you have a wrist grab of that kind your best bet is to pull away with body movement while yanking the arm up and down, and pushing it a little to his rear. 

The danger is the opponents other (free) hand. If it is holding a weapon then you are in trouble.

To counter this threat you want to drop your opponent, and a strike to the neck is not a bad idea. The important thing is making a throwing movement like O-soto-gari, i.e. reaping the same side leg as the arm you are tugging. A sweep or check as shown here will not work effectively without a wheeling type grip, where you are turning your opponent. He will simply catch up with the tug in the technique shown and push you off balance / hit you with an overhand right / stab you.

In an O-Soto-Gari style technique you are supporting your weight on the same side leg as the wrist grab and reaping the opponents leg. This will transfer your weight into him, towards his rear. If the neck chop misses you will still have his balance, and you are hiding your body behind his as you come in tight, protecting yourself from a weapon attack somewhat.

If the attacker pulls his arm in he is only aiding the throw.

If that all still goes wrong (it might) you may find yourself under the attackers outstretched arm behind him. This is a far better position than standing in front of him with one of his hands loose.

----------------------------------------------------

How I would interpret that kata move.

Off of a cross handed (right on right) wrist grab you come up as far behind your opponent as possible. Opening out your arms into the wings of the crane you chop into his neck. If he tightens up his arm he is pulling you into his neck, increasing the force of your chop.

You use the raised foot to sweep your opponents leg outwards, making it difficult for him to turn to face you. 

If he does not go down but manages to lean forward you convert to an armbar. If he leans forward while pulling his arm in while trying to turn into you (another common reaction)  you key lock (figure four) him while elbowing in the face, for a throw.

One day I'll get a camera and post these sort of things on the web. Until then you'll have to do with my awful descriptions!  Cheers!


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Agreed! If you're going to show the fine points of the KO, then yeah, go ahead and do it slow like that, but then you should show it with...whats that word again....* realism!!! *
> Mike


    So here is what we have so far.

 1)Folks have mpegs on their websites that claim they are doing KOs, buuuuut when questioned about said mpegs they say well.erthey dont always go out

           If they arent out then why call it a KO?

 2)When the question of the intensity in the attacker, or lack there of , comes up these same folks claim these are merely to show points or are set in an instructional setting. 
  I say BULL SHINTO! 
 If you want to show points fine.point to them, explain all you want and then do the technique on someone that is allowed to actually move in an attacking manner. If you dont show technique with some degree of a realistic attack you are doing a grave injustice to the people you claim to be imparting knowledge to. 
 My legs move differently when I run as compared to when I walk, my arms move differently when I punch in the air as opposed to when I strike a heavy bag..the same is true if you are doing technique on a moving attacker. 

 With all the claims that they CAN do it at speed I find it hard to believe that will the myriad of mpegs they plaster on the Internet there has never been one of these guys that has recorded it and stuck it on his website.


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Bod, 

 What I found amusing is his totally long and involved explanation using TCM terms and concepts (wrong ones I might add) to simply explain....."I hit the guy in his jaw and it makes his brain wobble"


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## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Two things,
> 
> 1) The clip that particular thread was refering to is no longer the clip of the week.  But you can find it here: http://www.kyusho.com/randallsanchez11.wmv
> 2) My sensei is just the type of guy you said for me to seek out. He believes that too many talk to much while too few can just hit 'em. He has no problem with moving KO's and in fact the great majority of our PP training is done at increasing levels of speed and force.


 1)Again, the attacker is part of the petrified kyusho forest and isnt moving..if someone opened up their arms on me like that yahoo in the mpeg did he would be spitting his teeth out. This is exactly why I say the person needs to attack in a more realistic manner. That mpeg demonstrates nothing to me except the so called defender left himself open for a good *** kicking. 

 2)Seems like a waste of time then to be associated with KI since its quality instruction that you seek. Just because the KI people can spit out a bunch of impressive sounding terms and complex sounding concepts doesnt make what they say correct. Just as in my reply above.if the attacker had any stones he would have dropped that cream puff of a defender.....wouldn't you have done the same thing?.....I know I would have.


----------



## Bod (Dec 30, 2004)

> What I found amusing is his totally long and involved explanation using TCM terms and concepts (wrong ones I might add) to simply explain....."I hit the guy in his jaw and it makes his brain wobble"


Aaah....
Yeah. There were other TCM (and universal) concepts he could have made the most of such as 'separation' of attackers focus and so on. As for the strike on the neck all sorts of things can happen. The 'creation cycle of fire and wood' is probably not the most useful explanation however.


----------



## wave (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Another gripe I have with internet kyusho folks..they think every attack can be solved by kyusho (most of them are not really even doing kyusho by the way).I guess kyusho is the only way to get someones attention long enough to get their wallet open though.


Robert

You seem to have a way of not answering a question, but skirting around the issue, whilst making yet another issue. At the same time, inferring that the person you are responding to, is part of the problem of both issues.

You have not addressed any of the points raised, as promised.

Regards

Russell


----------



## Cryozombie (Dec 30, 2004)

Guys...

I know this thread is just a big heated debate on this stuff, but I have a question for you...

Is there a *skilled* Pressure Point Touch or No Touch Knockout "master" in the Chicago area that would be willing to knock me out?

Not with the Eye one... that creeps me out and I like my eyes... even as poor as they are.

I am SERIOUSLY interested, and would love to "see" this in action.  If someone nearby is willing to have me at their school and do this to me, I would love to come.


----------



## EricD (Dec 30, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Guys...
> 
> I know this thread is just a big heated debate on this stuff, but I have a question for you...
> 
> ...



Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois.  Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

wave said:
			
		

> Robert
> 
> You seem to have a way of not answering a question, but skirting around the issue, whilst making yet another issue. At the same time, inferring that the person you are responding to, is part of the problem of both issues.
> 
> ...


 What question was that?
 I answered your question that you asked here to which you replied: 
_*Hi Robert*_*

Thanks for the reply. I hope we can now move forward with some enlightening discussion.
*or do you mean this question? Must have missed it. You sure get snippy when someone doesnt answer you question dont you. 



*My question to you is, If you had to make an mpeg for a website that was designed to show the effectiveness of Kyusho (for want of another term) what would the clip show?*



_First off I dont feel I HAVE to make an mpeg for anything. Secondly, I am not really even sure why you would ask this question since it would be painfully obvious to anyone that has been reading this thread what criteria would have to be met._





_The attacker would      actually have to do some sort of attack, not necessarily at speed but fast      enough to get the general idea of the techniques effectiveness. _
_Explain all you want      but when it comes time to do technique, shut the hell up and do it with at      least a degree of realism and speed. These are 2 examples of pure crap, in      fact these are so bad on so many levels I dont think  MT has the bandwidth to hold all the      comments that could be made.   _http://www.kyusho.com/jackieoickle1.wmv http://www.kyusho.com/KItoc.htm 
As I said before, not everything has to be a KO,      or what you guys are referring to as kyusho.  
 _
_


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois. Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.


 There is an ex-Dillman guy who is a 7th dan under Dillman and was on the News there a while back. He claimed he could do "No touch KOs" and so on and made all kinds of excuses why it worked on every single student of his, but when he was taken to the local BBJ club it didn't work on a single person.
    There was a thread here on MT that had a link to it.


----------



## Cryozombie (Dec 30, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois. Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.


Hmm.  Milwakee is only like 2 hours away... Id be up for that...


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Dec 30, 2004)

i dont want to speak for robert....
but as for the TCM stuff......and i am talking about traditional chinese medicine...not martial arts.
most of the guys that do this dont even have what some would call cursory knowledge.
you cant just pick up a book and say....wow the optical nerve goes right into the brain...how cool, i can just blap the eye and hit his brain.
or..........wow, 5 elements, destuctive cycle.....yin-yang, pernicious influence...blah blah blah.
im not claiming to be a cert TCM practitioner, nor am i claiming to be a kyusho knockout artist.....but i did study shiatsu in a real school, with real teachers who were MD's, DC's, DO's, D.Acc's, DCM.....
admittedly.....some guys do have this training.
i just think if someone really knew what it was they were playing with, they wouldnt do it with such little discretion.


----------



## EricD (Dec 30, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> There is an ex-Dillman guy who is a 7th dan under Dillman and was on the News there a while back. He claimed he could do "No touch KOs" and so on and made all kinds of excuses why it worked on every single student of his, but when he was taken to the local BBJ club it didn't work on a single person.
> There was a thread here on MT that had a link to it.



I know the one you are talking about.  It was some kind of Fox news thing, wasn't it?  The guy that Ripley's Believe It or Not dubbed "The Human Stun Gun".


----------



## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i just think if someone really knew what it was they were playing with, they wouldnt do it with such little discretion.



THAT is exactly what I was thinking.  How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy?  Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?


----------



## EricD (Dec 30, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Hmm.  Milwakee is only like 2 hours away... Id be up for that...



Well, his name is Mark Gridley.  I will send you a message with his email address (hate to put it here and it get picked up by a spam bot).


----------



## Cryozombie (Dec 30, 2004)

Im gonna drop him a line and see if I can go up and check it out, thanks!


----------



## ppko (Dec 30, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Guys...
> 
> I know this thread is just a big heated debate on this stuff, but I have a question for you...
> 
> ...


Dusty Seale, I am not sure that he would but I am pretty sure go to www.dillman.com and click on schools to find out more information


----------



## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 30, 2004)

I know this doesn't quite fit the requirement of attacker actually attacking, but it does show a more realistic knockout response:

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/fightclub-home.mpeg


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> Dusty Seale, I am not sure that he would but I am pretty sure go to www.dillman.com and click on schools to find out more information


 
 Aren't you the guy that kept saying I was always trying to promote my teacher??????

 Sorry to say but it seems like that is all you ever do........don't you know anyone else that does what you reffer to as "kyusho"?


----------



## ghostdog2 (Dec 30, 2004)

"THAT is exactly what I was thinking. How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy? Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?" Posted by Upnorthkyosha

I don't know a thing about TCM but I do know a bit about the law. If these KO's are entirely bogus, no harm done. If they are at all real, somebody is going to get hurt. Striking an unprotected neck or eye will, some day, go wrong, I fear. When it does, a lawsuit will follow. The trial won't take long and the outcome won't be pretty.
Rendering people unconscious, for any reason, is risky. To do it as part of a "demonstration" or sales pitch is down right foolish. Today's willing student is tomorrow's plaintiff. Good luck.
__________________


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 30, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I know this doesn't quite fit the requirement of attacker actually attacking, but it does show a more realistic knockout response:
> 
> http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/fightclub-home.mpeg


 
    Hmmmm.interesting video..well sort of anyway.

    I wonder can any of our Kyusho International "Masters" tell us just which point was struck that caused that KO? 

    Was it stomach 5 maybe?.....I think it was point DA 1 = (dumb *** #1) or was it Jaw 1? I can't really tell for sure. 


  Needless to say that was a bunch of teenagers doing something pretty dumb..but then thats what teenagers do isnt it

 I do feel sorry for the kid that got smacked. Its sad that he feels the need to get attention from his peers in such a self-destructive way.


----------



## D.Cobb (Dec 31, 2004)

I have during the course of training managed to wobble a few of my training partners. I figure when it gets real, that's all I need to do. If I want to go full KO then I just need to go a little bit harder.

Yes I am a member of KI, but that's because I can't get the "kyusho" training that I require anywhere else that's local. I have told my instructor right from the word go, if I reach a level where I am required to put someone out completely, then I won't go that far.

It is my honest opinion, that to knock someone unconcious, is to take control of their life, even if just for a short time. I cannot justify, to myself, that this is OK just to prove to someone else that I can do it.

I also believe that knocking people out cold, is very dangerous no matter how softly you do it.

I agree that these clips don't truely showcase, what some of these people can do. In most cases, what we see on the net is just blunt force trauma. there is a clip out there that shows, you can teach a monkey to do that.

The biggest advantage I see with the way that KI train, is that you develop an extremely high level of targetting. You find openings that you don't normally see, and you find yourself using actual kata moves to fight.

--Dave :asian:


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> 1) Yes I am a member of KI, but that's because I can't get the "kyusho" training that I require anywhere else that's local.
> 
> 2) It is my honest opinion, that to knock someone unconcious, is to take control of their life, even if just for a short time. I cannot justify, to myself, that this is OK just to prove to someone else that I can do it. I also believe that knocking people out cold, is very dangerous no matter how softly you do it.
> 
> ...


 
    1) Hopefully that situation will be rectified



    2) .and lose control of yours.litigation is still pretty rampant in the west, isnt it?



    3) I have that one! Its funny as hell.



 4) I am afraid I have to disagree with ya on this one Dave. From what I see on those mpegs, and the few KI people I have met in real life it looks more like a good way to develop bad habits. As I mentioned before the opening the guy that was supposed to be defending made you could drive a truck through.

 Not to mention, the slowness of the strikes they deliver. I counted between the strikes on one of the mpegs and it was 1-1,000strike..2-1,000strike..3-1,000 strike. 

 I seriously do not think they go slow for demo or instructional purposes..I think they are thinking about the next move..you can actually see them thinking about it on some of them. 

    To have any effect, strikes should be donebam, bam, bam. Non-stop, rapid succession. 

 My teacher said years ago that if someone throw 1 ball you catch, 2 balls you catch, but 3 balls same time you no can catchjust something to think about.


----------



## Simon Curran (Dec 31, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I know this doesn't quite fit the requirement of attacker actually attacking, but it does show a more realistic knockout response:
> 
> http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/fightclub-home.mpeg


Sorry for saying this, but that is not what I consider martial arts, that i just plain stupidity.


----------



## wave (Dec 31, 2004)

> _First off I dont feel I HAVE to make an mpeg for anything. Secondly, I am not really even sure why you would ask this question since it would be painfully obvious to anyone that has been reading this thread what criteria would have to be met._



 I know you don't have to.

_ 





The attacker would actually have to do some sort of attack, not necessarily at speed but fast enough to get the general idea of the techniques effectiveness. 

Click to expand...

 
Just like all the attacks on my BAR Tape. Inc the pre-emptive attacks. Just like the way we train.


As I said before, not everything has to be a KO, or what you guys are referring to as kyusho. 
See, there you go again, lumping me into the same bracket as someone else. I do not use the term Kyusho. 

Like I said, we probably agree on more than is obvious. But it is difficult when you keep applying the same assumptions you have of KI to me. There is a MASSIVE difference between what we do.

I notice from having a quick scan at your previous posts, that you like to "wind people up" a bit and also to call BS on what you consider unrealistic MA.

There were several questions asked of you ref your training etc that I could not find answers to. So, if you can either answer or post a link to a previous answer I could not find I would appreciate that.

One person asked you about the difference between atemi and Kyusho, they gave their opinion you said "not even close" and gave no further comment. Please advise the difference.

I know several people that have been to Oyata seminars and have seen some clips of him. In those clips he K.O'd a standing uke. At the seminar he k.o'd standing uke's. Why is it ok for him to do this as a DEMO of the techniques effectiveness, but not others? PLUS, he hit them hard! By the way, I do not believe in K.O'ing anyone at a seminar to show why things work. No DEMO is worth the possible detriment of your training partners health and safety.

I fully understand your continuing quest for more realism in the PP world so as to speak. It has been something I have pushed for the last 6 years or so. To push for realism is great. To put others down or lump others into the same boat, with no real knowledge of what they do should not be a part of your crusade.

You also mentioned the incorrect useage of TCM terminology and "science". Do you agree that to use the point names as a point of reference for where to attack is valid? 

You mentioned that people who find a non-responder are using the wrong type of attack to the wrong point. I disagree entirely. Why on earth would you need to use a certain type of attack and certain hand position to attack a weak area of the body? Just hit it, real hard. There is no way you can pick and choose "types of strike" in a real fight. That is just not realistic

Regards

Russell_


----------



## MJS (Dec 31, 2004)

ghostdog2 said:
			
		

> "THAT is exactly what I was thinking. How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy? Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?" Posted by Upnorthkyosha
> 
> I don't know a thing about TCM but I do know a bit about the law. If these KO's are entirely bogus, no harm done. If they are at all real, somebody is going to get hurt. Striking an unprotected neck or eye will, some day, go wrong, I fear. When it does, a lawsuit will follow. The trial won't take long and the outcome won't be pretty.
> Rendering people unconscious, for any reason, is risky. To do it as part of a "demonstration" or sales pitch is down right foolish. Today's willing student is tomorrow's plaintiff. Good luck.
> __________________



I too, often question how healthy it can be to repeatedly KO someone.  Now, I'm not a Dr. or PP expert, so I'd be interested in hearing from someone who can explain the medical effects on this.  

Mike


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

wave said:
			
		

> _As I said before, not everything has to be a KO, or what you guys are referring to as kyusho. _
> _See, there you go again, lumping me into the same bracket as someone else. I do not use the term Kyusho.
> 
> 
> Russell_


 Did I mention your name in that group? I think no......I made that statement in the same post as my reply to you.....that's all. Don't get so paranoid/

 Since you aren't really bothering to read my posts carefully I feel no need to read yours and didn't read anything past the above statement.


 maybe when you take the time to actually read my posts I will inturn read yours.......


----------



## The Kai (Dec 31, 2004)

EricD said:
			
		

> Well, KI has guys in Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Flora, Illinois. Not exactly in the Chicago area, but nearby.


Actually I'm here in Milwaukee!
Todd


----------



## The Kai (Dec 31, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Im gonna drop him a line and see if I can go up and check it out, thanks!


Let me know when you are coming up please!!

Todd


----------



## ppko (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Aren't you the guy that kept saying I was always trying to promote my teacher??????
> 
> Sorry to say but it seems like that is all you ever do........don't you know anyone else that does what you reffer to as "kyusho"?


I don't know what you are talking about, but any way Dusty Seale is not my instructor (he was at one time but it is now T.A. Frazer). If you are refering to me posting GM Dillmans website that was only so he can get a hold of Dusty or whom ever else that he wanted to see. If you are refering to the fact that I chose someone in DKI than of course I will choose someone in DKI it is the group that I know best. Would you rather have me refer him to one of your guys, if that is the case than go see Ron Richards, he is in Indianapolis go here http://www.kushu.com/id.html should get you there


----------



## stephen (Dec 31, 2004)

More Clips:

http://www.markklineskarate.com/ClipsnEvents.htm


And an interesting article:

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=233&keyword=thomas&summary=1&startsum=1


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> 1) I don't know what you are talking about, but any way Dusty Seale is not my instructor (he was at one time but it is now T.A. Frazer).
> 2)  Would you rather have me refer him to one of your guys,  http://www.kushu.com/id.html


 
 1) In another post you claimed I constantly promote my teacher.....which I replied that I very rarely if ever mention him.

 2) Not really.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

wave said:
			
		

> 1) ....and also to call BS on what you consider unrealistic MA.
> 
> 2) There were several questions asked of you ref your training etc that I could not find answers to. So, if you can either answer or post a link to a previous answer I could not find I would appreciate that.
> 
> ...


 


         Oh what the hell its New Years.



         1) We call that having an opinion in America.



         2) I am pretty sure I posted it somewhere on here



         3) And if you would have bothered to read my post and then his post you would understandobviously you didnt read it. 



   4) Oh reallywell your one up on me then because in the last 2+ decades of being in his Assoc. I have yet to see that. 




 5) I am not on a quest to for more realism in the PP world.and as for having no real knowledge for what they dowell lets see.I have seen Dillman first hand, if memory serves he is quite the demi-god over at Kyusho.com isnt?, seen Moneymakers and Rick Clarks students first handone was a 4th dan. Plus some other folks connected to KI, DKI, and DSI.



 6) No I dont since those points are not actually being used. The topic of why Acupuncture "points" are not really being used has been hammered to death on these threads. Sorry, but you will just have to "catch up" on your own here on MT. I posted this on another forum a while back. 
 [font=verdana, arial, helvetica] First off dont confuse acupuncture points with those areas used in kyusho/atemi jutsu.
 Folks that equivocate the two ([/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica]acupuncture points & kyusho/atemi areas) [/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica]are quacks and dont really know what they are talking about. I refer to them as color by numbers kyusho people.....connect ST5 to GB13 and then ST36....
 The folks that buy into color by numbers kyusho will tell you that they are hitting a kyusho point for example stomach 5 or blah, blah, blah..its a bunch of crap. Basically any area on the head that is struck with enough force will knock you out. [/font]



         7) Did I say that? I dont think I did.


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

stephen said:
			
		

> More Clips:
> 
> http://www.markklineskarate.com/ClipsnEvents.htm


 I have seen those......all I can say is what a load of crap.


----------



## ppko (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) In another post you claimed I constantly promote my teacher.....which I replied that I very rarely if ever mention him.
> 
> 2) Not really.


I never wrote that


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

ppko said:
			
		

> I never wrote that


  I see.....perhaps it was xequat then


----------



## Shizen Shigoku (Dec 31, 2004)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Sorry for saying this, but that is not what I consider martial arts, that i just plain stupidity.


I agree, I mostly posted that as a joke (should have put a  in there somewhere to clarrify my intentions . . .)

However, I still think it provides a more realistic knockout response than the other video clips posted which show mostly controlled break-falls. I dunno - maybe a skilled martial artist can take ukemi while unconcious. ?


----------



## RRouuselot (Dec 31, 2004)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I agree, I mostly posted that as a joke (should have put a  in there somewhere to clarrify my intentions . . .)
> 
> However, I still think it provides a more realistic knockout response than the other video clips posted which show mostly controlled break-falls. I dunno - maybe a skilled martial artist can take ukemi while unconcious. ?


 Yes it does. Since his body motion looks more like someone who has lost neuromuscular control instead of someone that is trying to fall down or fall like someone being KOed or stunned. 

 Funny how so many of the mpegs on those URLs say "XXXX KO" on them, then when people watch them & comment here on how fake they look and how they don't look or act like somone who has actually been KOed the people that posted those mpegs or are connected to them say "well er..um...they aren't really KOed but kind of 'brown out'...they were just stunned....that's not really the way we train" 
 Hey, I say if that's not really they you train then why show it? Why not show the ones that do represent the way you train? .....Also if you don't KO someone in the mpeg don't claim that is what you are doing in the description. 
     If they do keep posting mpegs that are of the same caliber then they shouldnt be too shocked to receive criticism.  

   People have also said these are instructional mpegs..lets look at what they teach.how to be attacked by someone in an unrealistic manner that actually doesnt even move and how to hit someone thats not moving in an unrealistic manner..

   These same people defend those mpegs saying its for the sake of safety 

   I am wondering whose safety they are referring to..the defenders or the attackers.

   It certainly doesnt make the uke/attacker any safer.in fact it is probably more dangerous to stand still and take a shot than it is to be moving. 

   I think it boils down to this one simple truthits easier for the defender to look better demo-ing if the attacker isnt moving. You are almost guaranteed to hit your mark every time of the guy is motionless. 






 Ill bet dollars to donuts we start to see more realistic mpegs posted of the next few months or so. By realistic I mean uke will actually start to move when he attacks instead of looking like he is waiting for a bus, learn how to act like he is knocked out better etc..etc..


----------



## D.Cobb (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 1) Hopefully that situation will be rectified.


 
     Ahh now you're teasing me



> 2) .and lose control of yours.litigation is still pretty rampant in the west, isnt it?.


 
 Whilst the litigation rate is climbing here, it still hasn't reached the level of the US. I understand that in some states of the US, if your attacker goes out, then you are automatically arrested, regardless of the circumstances. Here self defence is still legal.




> 3) I have that one! Its funny as hell..



Yeah, I love it too.





> 4) I am afraid I have to disagree with ya on this one Dave. From what I see on those mpegs, and the few KI people I have met in real life it looks more like a good way to develop bad habits. As I mentioned before the opening the guy that was supposed to be defending made you could drive a truck through.



I can only speak from my own experiences. Whilst I agree with you re the vids, I would have to say that I have actually increased my hand speed since starting with KI. Of course this could be down to the fact that my teacher is only a little bloke, and has 4 older brothers who are all martial artists. Everytime they learnt something new, they'd test it on him. Now he does his KI stuff on them, and us.



> Not to mention, the slowness of the strikes they deliver. I counted between the strikes on one of the mpegs and it was 1-1,000strike..2-1,000strike..3-1,000 strike.



Again, no argument there.



> I seriously do not think they go slow for demo or instructional purposes..I think they are thinking about the next move..you can actually see them thinking about it on some of them.



I have actually had one of our more junior guys comment on this happening to him whilst training. He found it quite uncomfortable, but we managed to get him out of it. All he needed was a realistic attack, all of a sudden, no time to think.  



> To have any effect, strikes should be donebam, bam, bam. Non-stop, rapid succession.
> 
> My teacher said years ago that if someone throw 1 ball you catch, 2 balls you catch, but 3 balls same time you no can catchjust something to think about.



and of course there are the times(few and far between) when you get that one good shot in, and everything comes together for that split second. That makes you feel good when you get it in on your teacher, and he hits the deck. It's these good shots that make guys like me stay with KI, until something better comes along.


--Dave :asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (Dec 31, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> 5) I am not on a quest to for more realism in the PP world.and as for having no real knowledge for what they dowell lets see.I have seen Dillman first hand, if memory serves he is quite the demi-god over at Kyusho.com isnt?, seen Moneymakers and Rick Clarks students first handone was a 4th dan. Plus some other folks connected to KI, DKI, and DSI.


Actually Robert, most of the guys at KI have tried to distance themselves from GD.      




> 6) No I dont since those points are not actually being used. The topic of why Acupuncture "points" are not really being used has been hammered to death on these threads. Sorry, but you will just have to "catch up" on your own here on MT. I posted this on another forum a while back.
> [font=verdana, arial, helvetica] First off dont confuse acupuncture points with those areas used in kyusho/atemi jutsu.
> Folks that equivocate the two ([/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica]acupuncture points & kyusho/atemi areas) [/font][font=verdana, arial, helvetica]are quacks and dont really know what they are talking about. I refer to them as color by numbers kyusho people.....connect ST5 to GB13 and then ST36....
> The folks that buy into color by numbers kyusho will tell you that they are hitting a kyusho point for example stomach 5 or blah, blah, blah..its a bunch of crap. Basically any area on the head that is struck with enough force will knock you out. [/font]



While I agree that blunt force trauma to the head will almost always have the required result, what can you say about the most gentle of rubs dropping you to your knees.
I grew up fighting. I only took up martial arts, to begin with, so that I could learn how to kick. When I did American Kenpo, I was the guy the big guys in class would use to test their ability, I enjoyed the pain both recieving and giving it. I know that if I fight someone now and they beat me, then they really earned the win.
But when my Ryukyu Kempo instructor stopped me in my tracks with the softest of rubs along the jawline, I have to believe that this pressure point stuff is for real. Maybe all the explainations are wrong, but for now, that's all I have to go on.

--Dave :asian:


----------



## wave (Jan 1, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> Did I mention your name in that group? I think no......I made that statement in the same post as my reply to you.....that's all. Don't get so paranoid/
> 
> Since you aren't really bothering to read my posts carefully I feel no need to read yours and didn't read anything past the above statement.
> 
> ...


By saying "you" guys as oppose to "those" guys, you are putting me in that group.

You still did not answer any of my questions.

You dismiss comments about your teacher with a sweeping statement. You say you have met some of Moneymakers Students. Arre these long term students or people who have been to a seminar ot two? There is a world of difference between somone claiming to be a student and actually being a student.

Give me one name privately if you like as I know all his students.

You continuously say that certain things are incorrect, but give no valid reason, just an opinion. Well...... you know what they say about opinions!

You are correct about Dillman, I have no time for him, ditto Clark. But seriously incorrect if you think Moneymaker can't do this stuff full speed and power.

Untill you begin to actually substantiate your opinions, with facts, then I will have little regard for what you are saying.

Myself and the people I train with have no trouble making this stuff work in full speed and power situations, doorwork etc, week in and week out. We have no need to try and convince people such as you as to the validity of what we do. I have tried to be constructive and appreciative of what I thought you were trying to achieve. But it seems that you just like to call BS on anything that you do not agree with, even if you have no first hand experience of it.

Best of luck in your endeavours.

Russell


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 1, 2005)

wave said:
			
		

> 1) By saying "you" guys as oppose to "those" guys, you are putting me in that group.
> 
> 2) You still did not answer any of my questions.
> 
> ...



   1)[font=&quot]      [/font]Whatever. 

   2)[font=&quot]      [/font]Ya know that comment is really starting to annoy me.I think I have answered all of your questions. I dont think you are reading my posts. Which questions didnt I answer? 

   3)[font=&quot]      [/font]Ya..and? What do you want me to argue with you about something you saw and I didnt. Sounds kinda stupid. 

   4)[font=&quot]      [/font]Geez you dont read well at all do you..look at my posts.I have given more than a few reasons. 



   Actually, I answered your post even though it was obvious you didnt read mine I was feeling kind of charitable and answered your questions anyway..when I guess I really shouldnt have.


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 1, 2005)

Mr. Rousselot,


I have been following this thread for a bit.  I am new to this forum.  Martial Arts has been, and always will be a hobby for me, I have a profession already so there is not need for a second.

My father, may he rest in peace, gave me some sound advice many years ago, "If you have nothing positive to say about anyone, then it is better to say nothing at all."

Jesus said to turn the other cheek, and I highly doubt if he meant to allow someone to blindside you.  

I am sure that my comments will be met with some degree of hostility, that was not my intention.

May peace be unto you and your family!

FB


----------



## SenseiBear (Jan 1, 2005)

Robert - this seems to be in response to this topic...  From the kyusho.com web site:


> Just to show that yes we train well beyond the standing KO.  So many criticize on assumptions about what we do and how we train, really not having a clue.  This is only the second of 10 levels of training criteria that we use, you decide is Kyusho viable in real situations?
> 
> For more information on classes or seminars email Evan Pantazi or call (978) 686 - 0025
> 
> ...


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 1, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> Mr. Rousselot,
> 
> 
> I have been following this thread for a bit. I am new to this forum. Martial Arts has been, and always will be a hobby for me, I have a profession already so there is not need for a second.
> ...


 Well I would address you by your name but I see you don't have the guts to post it in your profile. 
 Either way, your comments are off the mark. They might apply in some places but not here. 

 1) This is funny. Why is it some people want to get in your face with a post that is trying to get a rise out of you and then say something like this? I guess that's the PC way to do things.....


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 1, 2005)

SenseiBear said:
			
		

> Robert - this seems to be in response to this topic... From the kyusho.com web site:


wow.....that video looks as bad as the rest of them. now its 4 guys running in with their arms at their sides.

btw.....could somebody please tell me about the restorative arts you guys are using.....i didnt know you could make it all better after knocking someone out with a lil pat on the ole back and a lil shoulder rub.

shawn


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 1, 2005)

my name is Frank Bettincourt.

This had nothing to do with being polictically correct, just pointing something out that I had seen.  Regardless, you have your own path.  If you truly were a happy person then you would not have to constantly put others down.

Peace!  

FB


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> my name is Frank Bettincourt.
> 
> This had nothing to do with being polictically correct, just pointing something out that I had seen. Regardless, you have your own path. If you truly were a happy person then you would not have to constantly put others down.
> 
> ...


 First off, Don't even pretend to know me, what I think, feel or what mod I am in. 

 Second, I guess if everyone follwed your advice and kept their head in the sand we wouldn't have anything to worry about. 
 If people want to post crap mpegs on the internet they should expect commentary on it. 
 If you don't like this thread or the way I comment then you can "step off" anytime because as far as I can see nobody is twisting your arm to read this thread. 
 :321:


----------



## wave (Jan 2, 2005)

Robert

I was not going to bother replying to you anymore. But seeing as you treated Mr Bettingcourt the way you did.... here goes.

You continuously put others down and offer no validity to your claims of superior knowledge, other than sweeping general statements. Well people who make sweeping general statements are usually the less able.

I highly recommend you "humble up" a bit, get that chip off your shoulder and stop worrying about what other people do and train.

You make comments about people with no knowledge of them. e.g Moneymaker

In psychology, they talk about "Reaction Formation," which is a defence mechanism that conceals hidden motives from the self by giving strong expressions to it's opposite (as in we tend to attack in others what we secretly dislike most in ourselves). 

It is very easy to look for the bad in others; easier still to spend hours and hours on the internet gossiping about it. It takes discipline and intelligence, however, to look a little deeper and find the things that they are doing right. It also takes self-control to keep yourself from expressing opinions that are less than complimentary.

I am sure you will react with your customary aplomb.

I will not dignify your response with a reply, so rant away with your whatevers and BS and rudimentary attempts at sarcasm.

Regards

Russell


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

wave said:
			
		

> Robert
> 
> 1) I was not going to bother replying to you anymore. But seeing as you treated Mr Bettingcourt the way you did.... here goes.
> 
> ...


 
       1)Odd how you and Fbettincourt kinda joined about the same time.friend of yours maybe???

 2)Actually I have offered more than enough information to validate my position on MT as well as E-Budo; which is where you crawled over from after I commented on a post you made.which I guess pissed you off. I say it is the people that continually offer up bogus explanations about kyusho using TCM terminology which might as well be Swahili to most people, seasoned martial artists included, to make themselves sound educated on the subject of TCM as well as legitimize what they are trying to do. The use of TCM terminology does several things.it makes KOing someone sound more exotic and it acts as a buffer zone because few if any people they speak to understand TCM concepts well or at all which makes it easier for their claims to go unrefuted or challenged. Very convenient for them actually. 

 3)No chip and people on MT and Ebudo that know me and have trained with me will tell you what I am like..and that is basically if I dont know something I will state so without hesitation, also I will not flinch away from people that continually spread BS on the internet.

       4)Is that a fact..

       5)Dr. Russell is it now? 

 6)Funny you should mention that..My New Years resolution was to abstain from MA BBs for 6 months to a year starting today or tomorrow so I can concentrate on more important things like training and work since I will be needing to get some new qualifications for my job. As for your other comments in 6) this thread was started to get others opinions on mpegs I have seen around..seems I am not the only one that didnt care for what I saw..in fact I think most people thought they were all BULL and stated so.. judging from what I have seen of your posts you seem to be the kind of person that extends his hand in feigned friendship and has a dagger in the other waiting to use it. I doubt seriously you had any intent of making friends with me, or anyone on MT since all 6 of your posts to date have been on this thread..... nor do I think you sincerely wish to discuss the mpegs that were posted here.....your here because of my comments about your post on E-Budo pissed you off... you wanted to disrupt this thread well you have succeeded.

       7)Wow! You must be psychic  

       8)You can reply or dont reply I dont really care. I wont report you to the Mods for disrupting this thread.


 As I stated above I will soon be cutting myself off of MA BBs for about 6 months to 1 year since I have several other things that out way the importance of the things that happen here. I have corresponded with many people on MT via email and hope to continue to do so because I value the friendship and information exchanges we have had. I extend this offer to anyone on MT.feel free to email me if you want to discuss something; however I am not sure of the turn around rate of my replies.


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 2, 2005)

Mr. Rousselot,

My entire approach to this has been completely professional.  None of it was meant in bad spirit, even though you apparently have taken it that way.  Nothing has to do with political correctness, but courtesy and professionalism.

Peace!

FB


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 2, 2005)

In addition...If you despise these people, then why give them the time of day.  You have made people curious by drawing such attention to them.  I am sure that they will thank you in the long run for the business that you have driven their way.  

Whether someone is talking good about you or bad about...they are still talking about you.  

Peace!

FB


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> Mr. Rousselot,
> *
> My entire approach to this has been completely professional*. None of it was meant in bad spirit, even though you apparently have taken it that way. Nothing has to do with political correctness, but courtesy and professionalism.
> 
> ...


 Professional people introduce themselves.you have not. I see you still have no wish for anyone to know your name. Why is that? 

  Are you just one of the myriad of internet cowards that hides behind a user ID?

   Your participation in this thread is interesting to me. You all of a sudden joined MT and immediately gravitated to this thread and ONLY this threadyou post no personal information on yourself....and to date you have yet to post anything about the topic of this thread..but instead chose to try and engage me in some sort of argument..you have all the characteristics of a TROLL.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> In addition...If you despise these people, then why give them the time of day. You have made people curious by drawing such attention to them. I am sure that they will thank you in the long run for the business that you have driven their way.
> 
> Whether someone is talking good about you or bad about...they are still talking about you.
> 
> ...


 I can't recall ever using the "despise" to describe the way I feel about "these" people.


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 2, 2005)

Ok the word "despise" was never used.  "Crap", "BS", etc. have been used repeatedly.  Your rantings have nothing other than to raise curiosity to those that you (fill in your own words so that you will not accuse others of putting them in your mouth).  

My First initial (F) and my last name (Bettincourt) are in my profile.  If they are not then I will correct that.

It is a shame that you have to try to bully people with your words.  Life is too short my friend.  Good luck with your new endeavor(s) and really, May peace be unto you and your family.

FB
Frank Bettincourt (is that better?)


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> 1) Ok the word "despise" was never used. "Crap", "BS", etc. have been used repeatedly. Your rantings have nothing other than to raise curiosity to those that you (fill in your own words so that you will not accuse others of putting them in your mouth).
> 
> 2) My First initial (F) and my last name (Bettincourt) are in my profile. If they are not then I will correct that.
> 
> ...


 
       1)I see so I and others make comments about mpegs and you *****ume it is the people that are despised. Your logic is flawed.

       2)It wasnt at the time I was writing this.your profile says Karate Nidan

 3)I see..and why is it you are posting here again????.to enlighten meto be my conscience ? Give me a break....you are a troll plain and simple. 



 4)If that had an ounce of sincerity in it I would have said thanks, however, in the extremely brief time you have been at MT you have done nothing but try to get in my face


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## Fbettincourt (Jan 2, 2005)

Your entire attitude is sad.  I really do hope you find peace.  

FB


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## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> Your entire attitude is sad.  I really do hope you find peace.
> 
> FB


 So now that you have spent all this time expressiing your dubious concern for me would you care to step up to the plate and actually post something on topic here?


----------



## Makalakumu (Jan 2, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> THAT is exactly what I was thinking.  How can being KOed by using these points on a regular basis be at all healthy?  Perhaps some MT members with knowledge in TCM could enlighten?



Earl Montaigue writes that using pressure points in such fashion IS dangerous.  I don't know much about TCM or PPs, but I have experienced accupuncture and accupressure and I know _that it works_ for healing purposes anyways.  So, doesn't it follow that to use the same knowlegde for destructive purposes is overall harmful in your body?  Especially when it is done continually.  

upnorthkyosa

PS - someone indicated that they disapproved of the quoted post.  I am curious as to why someone would disapprove of a person questioning the safety of a training practice.  Within my dojang, safety in practice is the first hurdle anything needs to clear before it can be done in class...


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 2, 2005)

There is probably not much that I can add to the discussion by way of martial arts knowledge.  My father was my teacher.  His last words of wisdom to me before he left this world, was to seek out balance in everything.  This applies martial arts and life.  There are going to be those who we admire, and those that we even may detest.  Giving them the time of day only fuels the fire.

So to answer your question, do I have anything to add on topic?  Read above my friend and before replying, let the words become a part of you.  When you find that balance, and yes, tolerance, is part of balance, you will truly find peace.   

I was taught that courtesy, respect, and honor were part of the martial arts.  My journey in martial arts was not to become the ultimate fighter, but realize the true potential of the human spirit.  By coming closer to the above, we honor those that passed on their knowledge to us.  By ignoring the above, we flagrantly disrespect them.

Peace on your journey my friend!

FB


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 2, 2005)

Moderator Note. 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.


tshadowchaser
aka Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-


----------



## ppko (Jan 2, 2005)

wave said:
			
		

> You are correct about Dillman, I have no time for him, ditto Clark. But seriously incorrect if you think Moneymaker can't do this stuff full speed and power.


Funny how you would say that because if it wasn't for George Dillman than there wouldn't be a Kyusho International.  I beg to differ with this statement, I am sure that George can do this at full speed and there are several people in DKI that can do it at full speed.


----------



## Doc (Jan 2, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> What a crock of horse dooky. As one who has intensely studied suggestive therapeutics (hypnosis, eyes open or closed) I have always noticed how the speakers set up a response expectancy prior to delivering strikes. The target ain't ducking, dodging, or even twitching naturally the people do when something is on it's way to their eye.
> 
> When I first started BJJ, there were a bunch of these 1-touch yahoos around the NLP and hypnosis circuits. I always betted them that I could choke them out long before they knocked me out (anything goes, the one to walk away wins). Most didn't take me up on it. The few who did slept well.
> 
> Dave


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

Fbettincourt said:
			
		

> 1) There is probably not much that I can add to the discussion by way of martial arts knowledge. My father was my teacher. His last words of wisdom to me before he left this world, was to seek out balance in everything. This applies martial arts and life. There are going to be those who we admire, and those that we even may detest. Giving them the time of day only fuels the fire.
> 
> So to answer your question, do I have anything to add on topic? Read above my friend and before replying, let the words become a part of you. When you find that balance, and yes, tolerance, is part of balance, you will truly find peace.
> 
> ...


 That pretty much says it.......
  :moon::feedtroll


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Funny how you would say that because if it wasn't for George Dillman than there wouldn't be a Kyusho International.....


 
 ppko, 

 I think we actually agree on something........


----------



## BlackCatBonz (Jan 2, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Earl Montaigue writes that using pressure points in such fashion IS dangerous. I don't know much about TCM or PPs, but I have experienced accupuncture and accupressure and I know _that it works_ for healing purposes anyways. So, doesn't it follow that to use the same knowlegde for destructive purposes is overall harmful in your body? Especially when it is done continually.
> 
> upnorthkyosa
> 
> PS - someone indicated that they disapproved of the quoted post. I am curious as to why someone would disapprove of a person questioning the safety of a training practice. Within my dojang, safety in practice is the first hurdle anything needs to clear before it can be done in class...


i would say that they disapprove simply because they dont understand.
when you use a tool for a purpose that is not in it's design it can be dangerous. if you simply turn a blind eye to the danger and work out of ignorance it suddenly makes it ok. 
you dont fix a leak on a car tire by pounding more holes in it with hammer and nail......you especially cannot pound on the sensitive structures of the human anatomy and hope you dont do anything wrong.
i have yet to see anybody post anything meaningful as to the efficacious use of these KO points when they arent pounding them indiscriminately.

shawn


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 2, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i would say that they disapprove simply because they dont understand.
> when you use a tool for a purpose that is not in it's design it can be dangerous. if you simply turn a blind eye to the danger and work out of ignorance it suddenly makes it ok.
> you dont fix a leak on a car tire by pounding more holes in it with hammer and nail......you especially cannot pound on the sensitive structures of the human anatomy and hope you dont do anything wrong.
> i have yet to see anybody post anything meaningful as to the efficacious use of these KO points when they arent pounding them indiscriminately.
> ...


 Well said.


----------



## ppko (Jan 2, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> ppko,
> 
> I think we actually agree on something........


huh who would have thought


----------



## Turbo (Jan 2, 2005)

Look Out The Board Is Going To


----------



## ppko (Jan 2, 2005)

Turbo said:
			
		

> Look Out The Board Is Going To


lol


----------



## Turbo (Jan 2, 2005)

LOOK OUT THE INTERNET IS GOING TO CRASH!!!  PPKO AND RROUUSELOT AGREE...ITS ABOUT TIME.:ultracool 

I think *certain* people in all the organizations can do it full speed... there is always people that are just better at martial arts than others.  Not everyone is a true martial artist either...alot of people do Martial Arts for a hobby and dont practice enough, or have the mentality to make it effective.


----------



## Turbo (Jan 2, 2005)

Sorry about the messed up post...I should spend more time practicing the art of the keyboard....ha ha


----------



## ppko (Jan 3, 2005)

Turbo said:
			
		

> LOOK OUT THE INTERNET IS GOING TO CRASH!!! PPKO AND RROUUSELOT AGREE...ITS ABOUT TIME.:ultracool
> 
> I think *certain* people in all the organizations can do it full speed... there is always people that are just better at martial arts than others. Not everyone is a true martial artist either...alot of people do Martial Arts for a hobby and dont practice enough, or have the mentality to make it effective.


great post I couldn't agree more


----------



## The Prof (Jan 3, 2005)

Greetings,

I have viewed this clip and several of the others. I dont know what the heck he means about the optic nerve and the eye going back to the brain. But I do know one thing that most everyone seems to miss, when engaged in combat, and the adrenalin is pumping, they do not always go down as easy and as quick. How do I know? First hand experience.

But I will say something about the clip. That is a good knockout technique. As I said in one of my previous posts, I am not a knock out artist, and I do not even know how it works. I do not know squat about meridians, lung, liver, heart, kidney, etc. But I have been using this particular strike for decades. I do not go around knocking people out, I am not a showman. 

And yes, it works better on a stationary target. I will give you an example. Not to far back, in a Home Depot parking lot, I had a brief encounter of a not so nice kind. Apparently I must have done something while I was driving to irk a young man who appeared to be in his mid-thirties. 

After I parked and exited my car he came up to me in a huff swearing all sorts of profanity. The look in his eyes was not a very nice one. Without a warning to him or to me, when he got within striking distance, I did it. Down he went. It scared the crap out of me as I did not expect any of this to happen. I was relieved that his head did not hit the concrete. In all honesty, he did not appear to be totally out, but he was totally incapacitated and was not standing.

There were four very shocked people, him, me and two other senior citizens. This was not a very comfortable situation for me. I wish I would have gotten back into my car or something.

Anyway, Not to be offensive to anyone, I really think that there has been enough on this topic. All points have been made and well taken. I have enjoyed the clips and the posts. This morning one of our members called me at my home and it was a great conversation. 

Continue to enjoy each others company.  I think that you are a pretty neat bunch of people. And always remember; *"Survival Is An Everyday Reality"* Have A Great New Year!   :asian: :asian: :asian:

Prof. Rick Riccardi
www.niseido.org


----------



## Fbettincourt (Jan 3, 2005)

Years ago I ran across a book by Robert Becker called, "The Body Electric."  At the time, he was a research scientist working out of Syracuse University.  He was using specific frequencies to to generate tissue growth, nerve growth and more.  This was first conducted on Frogs.  Their legs were cut off and he was able to regrow the leg.

Eventually, there was a chance to try this on humans.  A man came in with gang(sp?) green.  The only "normal" mode of treatment was amputation.  He took the chance.  Using some kind of silver rod and the proper frequency, the leg was healed and ultimately saved.

Modern medicine now uses some of the work done by this man.  Formerly this was impossible and inconceivable...NOT ANYMORE!  

This led to my quest because of the tales of martial arts masters from years gone by.  Do I totally discount these mpgs?  No.  Do I totally accept these mpgs?  No.  As the Prof. has said, it has brought about a good discussion.  
I accept the possibility of these things.  If we are to discount them, then we might as well quit and find something else to do.  

Peace!

FB


----------



## The Prof (Jan 3, 2005)

Peace,  What a beautiful concept.


----------



## Chronuss (Jan 4, 2005)

The Prof said:
			
		

> Peace, What a beautiful concept.


on this board...man, the internet _would_ crash.  :wink1:


----------



## Simon Curran (Jan 6, 2005)

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I agree, I mostly posted that as a joke (should have put a  in there somewhere to clarrify my intentions . . .)
> 
> However, I still think it provides a more realistic knockout response than the other video clips posted which show mostly controlled break-falls. I dunno - maybe a skilled martial artist can take ukemi while unconcious. ?


Just got back to this one, it certainly looks more like a knock out in my book, the falling down and splashing around with the arms thing doesn't usually happen whilst unconcious...


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 10, 2005)

More bad "kyusho" videos......


http://www.kyushoworld.net/nrgweb/video.html

 This one has a seated KO that looks like me after to much sake....

http://home.earthlink.net/~jecorn/video.htm


----------



## BenThere (Jan 10, 2005)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of these mpegs?
> 
> http://www.jimcornskarate.com/video.php?location=video/jimko1.mpg
> 
> ...


Just a couple of clips the forum readers should look at

http://www.geocities.com/brsbarnes/index.htm



I dont know why you guys are giving this guy so much airtime/attention. First off, I have a deep respect for Seiyu Oyata, Roberts Instructor. But everyone on here who has known the Taika (Oyata) for any length of time (let alone 25 years) has seen him demonstrate techniques at a slow or medium pace. We have all seen Oyata demonstrate kos on someone who is not attacking full speed, and we have all seen him demonstrate on someone NOT even moving to attack him. I could post more that are from over 20 years ago, but this is not what is really at issue here. Robert, if you have been with the Oyata for over 25 years now, you must know this too. You seem to be playing on the naïveté of those new to kyusho using this forum (and others) as a personal weapon. You seem to have other more personal issues/reasons for posting on here. Maybe a personal axe to grind, or maybe even a vendetta. You continually use statements like, _Is the "attacker" actually attacking or just standing there?_ or _I was always under the impression that when demonstrating or practicing technique the uke (attacker) was actually supposed to attack. If the uke merely stands there and waits for it ANY technique will work. The whole point behind a demonstration is to demonstrate that the technique works_. _for it to be a real demonstration_ and _So let me ask you this. Dont you think these people that demo on those mpegs would better serve their purpose of demonstrating technique by showing some technique done with a bit of realismmeaning having some one attack with a bit movement (I say a bit of realism since we all know demos are not an actual fight_ when you know, your own instructor does the same, is very insightful to the rest of us. Using this as an attack to discredit others is weak. Using this forum, to get its uninformed less experienced members to aid you in your fervor is sad. 



I see from your post, you are planning on taking a sabbatical from posting to this forum. Good, maybe now the pissing contest will end.


----------



## RRouuselot (Jan 10, 2005)

BenThere said:
			
		

> I see from your post, you are planning on taking a sabbatical from posting to this forum. Good, maybe now the pissing contest will end.


 I love it when people join MT but don't have the balls to put anything in their user profile....care to tell us who your are???

   You are obviously one of Jim Korn's flunkies or Jim Korn himself since your quote only included his website.


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## ppko (Jan 10, 2005)

BenThere said:
			
		

> Just a couple of clips the forum readers should look at
> 
> http://www.geocities.com/brsbarnes/index.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks for the clips nice to see that Mr. Oyata does these stationary also.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 10, 2005)

ppko said:
			
		

> Thanks for the clips nice to see that Mr. Oyata does these stationary also.


Insanity, validated?  Please understand: I don't believe these are an impossibility. I most certainly DO believe that over 99.9% of the people who think they are doing them, are full of crapola.

A live, trained opponent, hell-bent on absolutely beating the bejeezus out of you will simply not make a good candidate for these KO's. Period. No matter what the videos say, or how Whomever does it. I issued a specific challenge match request to the Ky community, and have since put many to sleep. They get to try to K.O. me, while I beat on them with simple muay thai kickboxing, then pull them to the floor, and choke them until they tap out, or pass out. The one to walk away from the other guys unconscious body, wins. So far, the best defenses I've seen from guys in this camp are when they have given up entirely on trying to knock me out with acu-point schmutz, and just start flailing randomly in an attempt to distract me from dialing in the choke.

And I started doing this when Dillman and his 1-touches first starting spreading in popularity...many years before Mr. Rousselot started this thread.

Regards,

Dave


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Insanity, validated?  Please understand: I don't believe these are an impossibility. I most certainly DO believe that over 99.9% of the people who think they are doing them, are full of crapola.
> 
> A live, trained opponent, hell-bent on absolutely beating the bejeezus out of you will simply not make a good candidate for these KO's. Period. No matter what the videos say, or how Whomever does it. I issued a specific challenge match request to the Ky community, and have since put many to sleep. They get to try to K.O. me, while I beat on them with simple muay thai kickboxing, then pull them to the floor, and choke them until they tap out, or pass out. The one to walk away from the other guys unconscious body, wins. So far, the best defenses I've seen from guys in this camp are when they have given up entirely on trying to knock me out with acu-point schmutz, and just start flailing randomly in an attempt to distract me from dialing in the choke.
> 
> ...



Fix your feet.


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## Adept (Jan 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Fix your feet.


 I must have missed something. His feet?


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> I must have missed something. His feet?


Right. HIS feet not yours.


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## ppko (Jan 11, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Insanity, validated? Please understand: I don't believe these are an impossibility. I most certainly DO believe that over 99.9% of the people who think they are doing them, are full of crapola.
> 
> A live, trained opponent, hell-bent on absolutely beating the bejeezus out of you will simply not make a good candidate for these KO's. Period. No matter what the videos say, or how Whomever does it. I issued a specific challenge match request to the Ky community, and have since put many to sleep. They get to try to K.O. me, while I beat on them with simple muay thai kickboxing, then pull them to the floor, and choke them until they tap out, or pass out. The one to walk away from the other guys unconscious body, wins. So far, the best defenses I've seen from guys in this camp are when they have given up entirely on trying to knock me out with acu-point schmutz, and just start flailing randomly in an attempt to distract me from dialing in the choke.
> 
> ...


Who all have you done this to (you can pm me if you want just so I can verify it). Organizations are all the same you have the insstructors that are good at teaching but can't fight, you have instructors that are good at fighting but can't teach, and you have instructors that can't do niether and some that can do both. It's always going to be the man not the art. When we (the people in our school)do these KO's we understand that in a real situation we may miss the point or may not put the person out so just keep attacking until they are no longer a threat, hit what presents itself. I am not saying that we can not be beat anybody could win whether it be with skill or just plain old luck on any day anyone could win. That is why when we attack we don't stop attacking until they stop moving.Found this at kyusho.com
http://www.kyusho.com/burchtv.wmv it is a news clip of a 15 year old girl being abducted (Bill Burch was her teacher (he is in DKI)) just an example that this stuff works in real life.  Tell me your thoughts


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## A_MARTIAL_ARTIST (Jan 11, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka stated "I issued a specific challenge match request to the Ky community, and have since put many to sleep."



Please forgive my ignorance,but what do you mean by Ky community


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## Adept (Jan 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Right. HIS feet not yours.


 Allright, I'll bite. What's wrong with his feet?


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## Simon Curran (Jan 11, 2005)

A_MARTIAL_ARTIST said:
			
		

> Kembudo-Kai Kempoka stated "I issued a specific challenge match request to the Ky community, and have since put many to sleep."
> 
> 
> 
> Please forgive my ignorance,but what do you mean by Ky community


I think he was referencing the Kyusho International community, not the Petroleum based product...


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## A_MARTIAL_ARTIST (Jan 11, 2005)

Well seeing that i dont have ky jelly on the mind,KY could be Kyusho community, KY could be Kentucky (although doubtfull) no disrespect but that is why I asked him so there is no miscommunication.​Thanks anyway​


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 11, 2005)

Adept said:
			
		

> Allright, I'll bite. What's wrong with his feet?


I don't turn my rear heel as far as I should in a neutral bow, and am frequently "in the hole" with my width.  But that's just the short answer. There's more to it than that. Kinda an inside comment...ABC.

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 11, 2005)

A_MARTIAL_ARTIST said:
			
		

> Well seeing that i dont have ky jelly on the mind,KY could be Kyusho community, KY could be Kentucky (although doubtfull) no disrespect but that is why I asked him so there is no miscommunication.​
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks anyway​


kyusho community, disaffectionately referred to as the petroleum-FREE glycerine based product...used for giving it to the public. It's a pun, of sorts.

D.


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## A_MARTIAL_ARTIST (Jan 11, 2005)

So am i to conclude that you dont like th kyusho community? Thank you for the reply
by the way!


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## A_MARTIAL_ARTIST (Jan 11, 2005)

I would also be interested in who you have challenged and as you said put to sleep,if you dont mind me asking! If you dont want to post it you may send it private.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 11, 2005)

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Also feel free to review the links in my signature for our policies and rules on posting, content, and general acceptable behaviour. Personal attacks is not acceptable behaviour. Dicsussion of techniques and or applications to self defense are acceptable behaviour.

Thank you.
Rich Parsons
Super Moderator.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 11, 2005)

A_MARTIAL_ARTIST said:
			
		

> I would also be interested in who you have challenged and as you said put to sleep,if you dont mind me asking! If you dont want to post it you may send it private.


Here's a long one folks. Sorry in advance, but it's gotta be said.

Apprenticed to the Yoda of the dark side of NLP, I spent a lot of time at such things as Tony Robbin's firewalk weekends in the '80's. Robbins was brilliant at getting people to show up to events, and work for free...security, registration, logistics, snacks, making or spreading the fire, etc. The people who showed to volunteer would frequently congregate in the staff rooms at the weekends, and try to stand out via showing off their own little weirdnesses. Circa eighties-to-nineties, this meant many guys demoing 1-touch KO's in the back rooms. I didn't catch their names, because I didn't ask. I just called BS where I saw it, and gave them the opportunity to test their ability to do what they claimed they could against a non-naive, mobile target. Many napped, or tapped. Many more backed down from someone with nothing more they could verify then the confidence to tell them they were not doing what they though they were doing.

Flash forward a few years to the mid-nineties. I had an MMA gym I was partnered in. Someone else taught the boxing, Muay Thai, sticks and JKD; I taught the jits and putting it all together. I had then (and still have) a standing invitation for ky people to test their skills. I am sure the day will come when they are able to land it, and I'm the one to go nappy-bye. But it hasn't happened yet.

Names? Most of the guys doing this make their living from it, and would not place their livelihood on the line. I offer anonymity: The idea is not to embarrass and publicly humiliate, but rather to inform. They get to come see how well they do, then decide what to do about it next.  The responses usually look like:

1.  "I woulda/coulda/shoulda..." = someone who just didn't get what happened, because it went by too fast, or they are too heavily invested in their belief system to accept data not accounted for by it.

2.  "I think if I was faster, I would have been able to get him right when he was..." they were close, perhaps, but I was too wiggly or aggressive. They may be right. What's that saying about, "...on any given Sunday..."? If they go back and train harder, they may very well be back to put me out. Hasn't happened yet, but I also remember when that was true of a Gracie losing an MMA match. We all know how that ended.

3.  "Wow. That sucked. I guess I was misinformed about how this works". Maybe, mebbe not. The first step to acquiring new information is the admission that the pre-existing information was, is, or may be in some way insufficient. It may work fine, but not how they trained it. Or it may have worked fine for previous generations of practitioners, because they approach the topic from a different starting point, leading to different end points. Dillman was an unpopular tough old karate cuss well before the KO thing.

4.  "Well, that proved I couldn't do it, but I know Master so-and-so could if he were here." Master worship will get you killed. I think of myself as a pretty good kenpoist and/or BJJ-er, but I will never be an Ed Parker or Rickson Gracie, and knowing that, will avoid putting myself in positions they could likely have handled. Maybe Dillman could handle what his lackeys couldn't. I know, at the time, the original Gracie Challenge (100 grand in Torrance) was still around, and several of the DK/ky guys were taunted specifically to come by and test themselves. None showed. Perhaps because Rorion video-taped the in-house challenge matches. That's why I offered privacy...to see how well the guys did who trained this "art", but didn't want the notoriety of going to sleep on tape. Name one of the ky mucky-mucks that would want video of them sleeping off a choke to show up on Gracie In Action 3?

BTW, see any one-touchers entering the UFC and tapping their ways to big-money winning purses? Heck, if I could nap a guy out with a tap or two, you better believe I would be in the ring making ends meet. Beats working for a living, especially if the whole thing would end as soon as the guy was in tapping range. Biting and eye-raking may not be allowed, but grabs and strikes are. And these are the functional mechanisms by which many of the pressure-point KO's are purportedly facilitated.

I don't dislike the KY crew; I do personally object to raising false expectations in the mind of naive students with checkbooks. I know I can take a guy, and in 6 months of 3 hour sessions, 4 times a week, train him to be "good enough" at ground fighting and kick-boxing to hold his own against the bulk of the populace. Why? Because most folks in the world will never train in martial arts. The vast majority of those who do will end up in a commercial school for a few months, before moving on to some other hobby. They will never do heavy bag training, focus pad training, intense physical fitness training, strategic submissions wrestling with a guy who's trying to negotiate their frame and place them in a painfully compromising position; they will never put on 14, 16, or 20+ ounce gloves and trade blows and combinations with someone aiming at their head for 10 4-minute rounds; and so on. If they (my 6-month student) bump into some road rager in a parking lot somewhere, they are better prepared to cover up against initial attacks, drive a shin to the thigh and a punch to the head, clinch with the guy and knee him in the body before dragging him to the floor to sit on his chest and punch him in the face until pulpy, if they choose to do so. 

Granted, the guy will not be bullet-proof. But I never make that claim. I simply represent "better prepared to deal with schtuff, when schtuff happens". Schtuff has happened, and my guys have wrecked their attackers. Done them ugly, and fast.

That, to me, is very different from claiming that, in some amount of time X, you will be able to sneeze on a guy and make him fall down helplessly.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- I used to teach suggestive therapeutics (hypnosis), and am one of the guys who has placed a Q-tip to the skin of a somnambulistic subject, told them it was a lit match, and watched the blister form. As a practitioner of alternative medicine, I see DAILY how people's expectations affect physiological functions that would seem to be completely unrelated to what's going on in their head. 

Building Response Expetancy = Informing a subject/patient/person that some Action by the operator will cause or facilitate a specific (or vague) Reaction by the subject.

Example 1: "I'm going to lower my voice in just a moment, and as I do, you might be surprised to find your attention turning inward...you're body becoming more relaxed as it does, until you find yourself deeply entranced in a state of drowsy relaxation". This kind of low-invasive/specific is used to coach more resistant people into suggestive states. Less abrasiveness to react against mentally, so the compliance to suggestion goes way up.

Example 2: "Now, I'm going to count from 5 down to 1, and with each number, your hand will become lighter and start to lift. When I reach 5, your hand will be next to your cheek. Ready? 1...2..."... More invasive/specific, used to cut the crap and get to the point with less resistant subjects. 

Example 3: Conversational Suggestive Therapeutics "I know you mentioned your low back is hurting. In just a moment, were going to stretch out the joints in the small of your back, and you will feel significantly better by the time you walk out the door." Now, is it my Chiropractic manipulation that gets them to fell less pain, or the response expectancy I set up with the pre-adjustment suggestion?  Having seen the results of Chiro's who DON'T use this direct approach, I lean more towards the power of suggestion.

Example 4: "I'm going to tap you on a specific, sensitive part of your neck, and because of the way the body works energetically, you are going to lose your balance, and may even pass out."

I've seen and trained too many clinical and stage hypnotists to believe the 1-touch and/or NO TOUCH are anything else.


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## Seig (Jan 11, 2005)

ADMIN NOTE:

I normally do not interfere when one of my SuperMods has posted something, but I wish to clarify a point. If it becomes evident that a member has joined Martial Talk for the express purpose of attacking a member of this board, they will be banned with no warning.
Seig
Ops Admin


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## D.Cobb (Jan 12, 2005)

Seig said:
			
		

> ADMIN NOTE:
> 
> I normally do not interfere when one of my SuperMods has posted something, but I wish to clarify a point. If it becomes evident that a member has joined Martial Talk for the express purpose of attacking a member of this board, they will be banned with no warning.
> Seig
> Ops Admin



Unless you don't like the way the member responds to the person who joined specifically to attack them. Then the member gets suspended.

Isn't that right, Robert?

--Dave


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## ppko (Jan 12, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Here's a long one folks. Sorry in advance, but it's gotta be said.
> 
> Apprenticed to the Yoda of the dark side of NLP, I spent a lot of time at such things as Tony Robbin's firewalk weekends in the '80's. Robbins was brilliant at getting people to show up to events, and work for free...security, registration, logistics, snacks, making or spreading the fire, etc. The people who showed to volunteer would frequently congregate in the staff rooms at the weekends, and try to stand out via showing off their own little weirdnesses. Circa eighties-to-nineties, this meant many guys demoing 1-touch KO's in the back rooms. I didn't catch their names, because I didn't ask. I just called BS where I saw it, and gave them the opportunity to test their ability to do what they claimed they could against a non-naive, mobile target. Many napped, or tapped. Many more backed down from someone with nothing more they could verify then the confidence to tell them they were not doing what they though they were doing.
> 
> ...


Did you see my news clip that I posted, it's always the person not the art


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## MJS (Jan 12, 2005)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Unless you don't like the way the member responds to the person who joined specifically to attack them. Then the member gets suspended.
> 
> Isn't that right, Robert?
> 
> --Dave



Disagreements are going to happen on any forum.  That being said, there are many options here on MT that one can take if they find themselves getting into a heated debate.  The Mods/Admin team look at the heated areas, and address them as they see fit.  Warnings, suspensions, and banning are all options that they can take.  

Mike


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## Bod (Jan 12, 2005)

My approach to one touch and no touch knockouts is this:

I have been close to passing out from some strangles but not others while doing judo. I know you get a tap faster when your knuckles are in one place compared to another. So I do not dispute the possibility of striking a point and it knocking a person out.

Also, from watching the mpegs it appears that people are falling down and behaving, functionally, as if they are knocked out. That is as good as a knockout to me. I don't care if it's hypnosis, magic, or chi, it's a knockout of sorts.

However, as with _any_ technique you have to ask - "in which situations would this work"? Some of my boxing techniques only work well with gloves, some of my judo techniques only work with a gi, or on a mat, and so on.

To what situations can this technique be applied? In what situations could _I_ apply this technique? Using the power of suggestion (or your chi - you choose) on a compliant subject may be a valid technique in some situations. For instance, I've seen policemen on TV use joint locks on suspects while they were still compliant which would no longer work once the suspect became agitated. 

It is important to know the relevance of any technique, combination or strategy to a situation.

My interest in one touch knockouts is quite low, because if they were at all practicable then people would be pulling them off in judo competitions all of the time. My reasoning behind this is that with a grip on an opponents collar and a knuckle protruding from your fist, a light blow to the ST9 point should be practicable since your opponent is not moving much with respect to your fist. In fact, in Osoto-Gari people regularly smash their palm or knuckles into the side of the neck in order to break balance, but a knockout has not been recorded as far as I am aware.

That suggests to me that a light knockout strike would be even less practicable in general 'fighting'.


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## Bod (Jan 17, 2005)

OK, I have a new insight into the eyeball knockout.

Friday I spent 5 hours in Moorfield's Eye Hospital London, of which about half an hour was getting my eyes examined and 4 and a half hours was waiting.

This was a result of a scratched cornea incurred on Thursday night during boxing sparring.

The punch in the eye was a result of a left-right combo. I blinked my eyes shut on the left and had my left eye open as my sparring partner landed a pretty heavy right, bang on the eye.

Well, I saw a bright flash and put my hands up to signal stop and stepped out of the ring. But I was not knocked out, or even woozy. Given that the optic nerve was almost certainly jarred, my experience shows that you certainly cannot guarantee a knockout from an eye poke.


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## ghostdog2 (Jan 17, 2005)

" my experience shows that you certainly cannot guarantee a knockout from an eye poke." Posted by Bod

Can I say " Me Too "? I'm sporting one heckuva shiner I got last week. Failed to cover quickly enough, and caught an overhand right. Bloodshot eye, black/purple bruise and hurt pride. Still conscious, though.
Maybe it can be done differently, but in the fast paced world of sparring this type of hit is about as focused and precise as it's likely to get. IMHO no chance it would render one unconscious except thru blunt force trauma.


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## RRouuselot (Jan 26, 2005)

Just a little up date folks.



      Seems my last post on Kyusho International pissed someone off as my account on KI has mysteriously been shutdown. 

 On that thread Pantazi claimed he had no connection with anyone in Japan, basically claiming I made up some story. In my last post I directed his attention to a thread on KI that was made back in mid 2004 by one of his own members, that member did in fact actually come and train with me.once. After my comments a one post wonder just all of a sudden decides to join KI and heads straight for the thread that I am on, and makes his first post there* and states in very immature way that I should just go away. Following his post my account encountered trouble and I was no longer able to log on to KI. I tried to open another account and was declined. 

      All very coincidental I guess.  






*Unlike MT to view the forum section on KI you must first join and then get permission to view threads on KI. Odd how someone could choose that thread as the first one to post on.
Seems we have several one post wonders on this thread on MT that dont have the stones to give out their real names.I guess that is to be expected though since some people prefer to hide behind the safety of their keyboards.


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## Simon Curran (Jan 26, 2005)

Seems kinda petty to me Rousselot, throwing somebody out because they have called somebody elses bluff...

Sad, very sad.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2005)

As a sidebar:
We have in the past experimented with the "need to be a member to view" idea, and founf it caused several problems.  One of those was a drop in new signups as people can't 'try it first'.


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## Doc (Jan 26, 2005)

Here's my take on the "eyeball knockout." In my opinion, someone may have accomplished this and assumed it was the eyeball. This is false. However from viewing the video someone put up awhile back, I suggest that it was more probably his cupped hand in conjunction with the proper posture etc. striking the Gall Bladder 20 cluster that is just above the eye over the eyebrow line. Just my take.


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## RRouuselot (Jan 26, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Seems kinda petty to me Rousselot, throwing somebody out because they have called somebody elses bluff...
> 
> Sad, very sad.


    Yes it is.

 No doubt his lackeys will descend upon this thread once again. To be honest their childish insults and internet challenges* get old.
     Odd thing is I have yet to read a post of theirs on MT that could be considered constructive or informative. 



    *One KI member suggested they take up a collection and fly Pantazi over to Japan, I replied my door is always open.


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## N.Somerville (Jan 26, 2005)

oh gee come on Master Rouuselot, we arent all lackeys....


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## BlackCatBonz (Jan 26, 2005)

as far as the eyeball knockout goes......it could be attributed to aschner's phenomenon (oculocardiac reflex) which creates a reduction in the hearts BPM. i highly doubt that this was the case. the strike would have caused another natural reflex, orbicularis oculi reflex, or tightly closing the eye, which is the result of a strike around the orbit. this clenching shut of the eye and its surrounding musculature really wouldnt allow a nice penetrating strike of said point.


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## RRouuselot (Jan 27, 2005)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> as far as the eyeball knockout goes......it could be attributed to aschner's phenomenon (oculocardiac reflex) which creates a reduction in the hearts BPM. i highly doubt that this was the case. the strike would have caused another natural reflex, orbicularis oculi reflex, or tightly closing the eye, which is the result of a strike around the orbit. this clenching shut of the eye and its surrounding musculature really wouldnt allow a nice penetrating strike of said point.


  Well done. :ultracool
   Sounds like you just blew another BS :bs1:"color by numbers kyusho" theory away.


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## D.Cobb (Jan 27, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Here's my take on the "eyeball knockout." In my opinion, someone may have accomplished this and assumed it was the eyeball. This is false. However from viewing the video someone put up awhile back, I suggest that it was more probably his cupped hand in conjunction with the proper posture etc. striking the Gall Bladder 20 cluster that is just above the eye over the eyebrow line. Just my take.



Hey Doc, how goes it? isn't the GB 20 at the back of the head?

--Dave


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## ppko (Jan 27, 2005)

I was wandering if anyone was going to catch that GB cluster is 13,14, and 15


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## Bod (Jan 27, 2005)

I was thinking about the cupped hand thing. Strikes to the face seem to go better wit hthe cupped hand. Some say this is to do with kyusho points, which may be true.

I was thinking though that maybe the strikers body mechanics benefit from the cupped hand. You get the required balance between the arm relaxation of a slap and the hand and wrist tension of  a (hook) punch.

I'm sure this increases the delivered power quite a bit.


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## Bod (Jan 27, 2005)

I've thought of a good way to test this out. I'll put on my plastic face guard and get my flatmate to slap me hard, and then see what happens.


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## Doc (Jan 27, 2005)

D.Cobb said:
			
		

> Hey Doc, how goes it? isn't the GB 20 at the back of the head?
> 
> --Dave


Yeah my bad, I meant to say "14." I gotta get some sleep one of these days. When the posture and the strike are done correctly, this will give you that effect. Good catch guys. Keep me honest.


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