# miyamoto mushashi: how to perceive intention of your opponent



## ark400 (Jul 13, 2013)

mushashi wrote in his classic "a book of five rings" that you must perceive the intention of your opponent and before he makes a move, you make a move.

he advised the following way to perceive intention of opponent:

1. becoming the opponent: 

you should put yourself in opponents shoe and try to think from his point of view what he can do. if your opponent knows that you are a master of MA, he might think he may lose or he may be mentally weak.


2. arresting the shadow

you may use any advantageous rhythm to determine opponents motive and then you can find winning advantage.

3. mismatch the rhythm

you must take a rhythm that does not match that of your opponent. this is described in para like "mountain and sea change" or " knowing disintegration" etc.

                                            from the fire scroll in the book of five rings by miyomoto mushashi


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## Cyriacus (Jul 13, 2013)

Or you could just beat him and not care about his feelings towards you. Or you could get beaten for caring about how he feels about you. Martial arts people are made fun of, not held in reverence and fear.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 15, 2013)

And.... both of you missed what was being said.... Musashi isn't easy to get a handle on at the best of times, and honestly, these comments aren't what was meant. For the record....


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 15, 2013)

Basically he said to walk over and kill the other guy.


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## Mauthos (Aug 15, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Or you could just beat him and not care about his feelings towards you. Or you could get beaten for caring about how he feels about you. Martial arts people are made fun of, not held in reverence and fear.



That's unfortunately true in some cases, although I haven't met that many people who outwardly mock and poke fun of people doing martial arts. Also, it's a bit of a negative view on martial arts in general, I find the majority of people are more interested when they find out about people training to a high degree in a martial art, but I do agree that people are not generally scared of martial artists or hold them in reverance.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 15, 2013)

First, to Chris, yeah, im not a Musashi follower. That kind of literature doesnt interest me, so i lack experience in interpreting it 



Mauthos said:


> That's unfortunately true in some cases, although I haven't met that many people who outwardly mock and poke fun of people doing martial arts. Also, it's a bit of a negative view on martial arts in general, I find the majority of people are more interested when they find out about people training to a high degree in a martial art, but I do agree that people are not generally scared of martial artists or hold them in reverance.



Yeah.


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## Balrog (Aug 15, 2013)

Mauthos said:


> That's unfortunately true in some cases, although I haven't met that many people who outwardly mock and poke fun of people doing martial arts. Also, it's a bit of a negative view on martial arts in general, I find the majority of people are more interested when they find out about people training to a high degree in a martial art, but I do agree that people are not generally scared of martial artists or hold them in reverance.


What annoys the hell out of me is when people find out that I am an instructor.  Almost the first words out of their mouth are some variation of "Oh, don't hit me".  Yeah, lady, like I woke up this morning and decided to go into the grocery store today and find you and whip your butt. 

I don't think we should be held in reverence, but I do think that we deserve some basic level of respect.  We've spent a significant portion of our lives training to get to where we are and we continue to train and improve every day.  Does your lawyer do that, lady?  Or your doctor?  Or your car mechanic?  They might get 15-20 hours a year of "continuing education".  We get that in a week.

Sorry.  I'll get off my soapbox now. :soapbox:


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## pgsmith (Aug 15, 2013)

Balrog said:


> What annoys the hell out of me is when people find out that I am an instructor. Almost the first words out of their mouth are some variation of "Oh, don't hit me". Yeah, lady, like I woke up this morning and decided to go into the grocery store today and find you and whip your butt.
> 
> I don't think we should be held in reverence, but I do think that we deserve some basic level of respect. We've spent a significant portion of our lives training to get to where we are and we continue to train and improve every day. Does your lawyer do that, lady? Or your doctor? Or your car mechanic? They might get 15-20 hours a year of "continuing education". We get that in a week.
> 
> Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now. :soapbox:



  That just means you're dedicated to your hobby. I've known sculptors, ball players, and marathon runners that put more time into their hobbies than most martial artists I've met. Obsession doesn't command respect. Who you are and what you do is what commands respect. Personally, I don't feel that being upset at someone else's ignorance of your hobby commands respect either, but that's just my opinion.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Martial arts people are made fun of, not held in reverence and fear.



Not Miyamoto Muhashi in his day, not a whole lot of people made fun of him. It wa sa quick and easy way to get yourself killed



Cyriacus said:


> Or you could just beat him and not care about his feelings towards you. Or you could get beaten for caring about how he feels about you.



Basically that is what Musashi said. He is talking about understanding your opponent so you can defeat him


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2013)

Maybe it is me but I don't get that kind of response.  People are interested, curious if they find out and very respectful.  Then again it could just be what I project.  I don't know.


Now onto Miyomoto Musahshi.  He wrote some pretty interesting things.  The Book of Five Rings is some thing that I feel every martial practitioner should read.  However, I also think people should look carefully beyond the writing and look at this man's history.  I feel that to call him a saint is pretty ridiculous.  He was great with a sword by all counts but not very saintly!  Unless you consider dueling and killing people saintly.  I would characterize Miyomoto Mushashi as someone who was good at what he did, maybe even obsessed to a point that it ruined a normal life for him and then in the end he was coping or trying to deal with that when he was a hermit and writing.  On many levels he is someone to be pitied for the life he lead.  I know this is not the norm in peoples perception of him and maybe I have been influenced by a few trusted Japanese instructors but in the end this is my opinion!  For what it's worth!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 15, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Maybe it is me but I don't get that kind of response.  People are interested, curious if they find out and very respectful.  Then again it could just be what I project.  I don't know.
> 
> 
> Now onto Miyomoto Musahshi.  He wrote some pretty interesting things.  The Book of Five Rings is some thing that I feel every martial practitioner should read.  However, I also think people should look carefully beyond the writing and look at this man's history.  I feel that to call him a saint is pretty ridiculous.  He was great with a sword by all counts but not very saintly!  Unless you consider dueling and killing people saintly.  I would characterize Miyomoto Mushashi as someone who was good at what he did, maybe even obsessed to a point that it ruined a normal life for him and then in the end he was coping or trying to deal with that when he was a hermit and writing.  On many levels he is someone to be pitied for the life he lead.  I know this is not the norm in peoples perception of him and maybe I have been influenced by a few trusted Japanese instructors but in the end this is my opinion!  For what it's worth!



Strongly agree.

I will admit I never looked at Miyomoto Musahshi as someone to be pitied for the life he lead, but you do make a good point, thank you for that.


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## Transk53 (Aug 15, 2013)

pgsmith said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't feel that being upset at someone else's ignorance of your hobby commands respect either, but that's just my opinion



One I agree with!

Kind of on topic, but kind of off, I recently read "_*child of vengeance*_ by Chris Kirk. Fiction maybe, but Musashi Miyamoto was brought to life in a that makes sense.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 15, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not Miyamoto Muhashi in his day, not a whole lot of people made fun of him. It wa sa quick and easy way to get yourself killed


It aint his day any more. 


> Basically that is what Musashi said. He is talking about understanding your opponent so you can defeat him


Im cool with that. Its the idea of analyzing your particular opponent as he attacks you i take issue to


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## Chris Parker (Aug 16, 2013)

Ken Morgan said:


> Basically he said to walk over and kill the other guy.



Well..... sometimes you make them walk to you first.... 



Cyriacus said:


> First, to Chris, yeah, im not a Musashi follower. That kind of literature doesnt interest me, so i lack experience in interpreting it



It's cool that you're not a "Musashi follower" (whatever that means...), but honestly, if you're going to comment on something like the Gorin no Sho without knowing about it, and instead to give what comes across as a rather dismissive appraisal (which missed entirely what was said), I'm gonna pick it up.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Now onto Miyomoto Musahshi.  He wrote some pretty interesting things.  The Book of Five Rings is some thing that I feel every martial practitioner should read.  However, I also think people should look carefully beyond the writing and look at this man's history.  I feel that to call him a saint is pretty ridiculous.  He was great with a sword by all counts but not very saintly!  Unless you consider dueling and killing people saintly.  I would characterize Miyomoto Mushashi as someone who was good at what he did, maybe even obsessed to a point that it ruined a normal life for him and then in the end he was coping or trying to deal with that when he was a hermit and writing.  On many levels he is someone to be pitied for the life he lead.  I know this is not the norm in peoples perception of him and maybe I have been influenced by a few trusted Japanese instructors but in the end this is my opinion!  For what it's worth!



A couple of things here, Brian. First, thanks for the welcome back... life's been a little... disruptive... for a while. Now, onto the topic at hand. I'm not sure that I'd say that every martial practitioner should read Gorin no Sho... sure, most can get something out of it, but few will get what is actually meant. The main reason is why the book was written in the first place... it wasn't for anyone outside of the tradition. In fact, it wasn't even for many inside it... it was specifically for one student, to give them a deeper appreciation of the strategies and tactics of his hyoho... if you're not following Musashi's Hyoho, then it has limited value, honestly. Many passages are incredibly specific to parts of the Ryu (waza, riai etc), and not to others... some downright argue with other approaches/hyoho found in other ryu-ha. So sure, read it, find what you can... but unless you train Musashi's hyoho, you won't see what is being said.

Next, the idea of referring to Musashi as Kensei (Sword Saint) isn't a reference to a "saint" in a Western/Christian form... quite separate, really... and to try to equate the two due more to a lack of proper translation within English I feel is a bit unfair. In the sense the term is used, it refers to someone whose skill and application of the weapon approached what we might call superhuman (beyond the normal skill level attainable by most people). And, in that sense, he most certainly is a "saint"... along with Tsukahara Bokuden, Itto Ittosai, Kamizume Ise no Kami, and many others. Their skill was considered almost "divine"... which is the nuance the English affectation of "saint" really refers to. Mind you, when it comes to bloodshed and violence, many Western saints have a claim as well... such as Saint Louis (embarking on two Crusades in his life), Saint George (who was a Roman soldier), Saint Ignatius (founder of the Jesuit movement, it's first Supreme General, and a career soldier who founded his movement based on readings while recovering from battle wounds), Joan of Arc (yep, a saint as well... and that was a lady who didn't shy away from swinging steel!), ooh, Saint Vladimir was a good one... polygamist, partaker of human sacrifice, and more... Saint Moses, a former slave released after suspicion of theft and murder, he would go on to lead a violent gang. Seriously, these are the saints here! Why doesn't Musashi fit in? Oh, yeah... no conversion to Christianity....

I'd also argue against the idea that he was "coping or trying to deal with" his former life living as a hermit... that doesn't really fit with the descriptions of his motivations and movements. There is, in fact, no indication of any such feelings in his writings, the stories passed down, or anything else. Hell, in the introduction to Gorin no Sho, he states that after he had his final duel (at the age of 29, against Sasaki Kojiro), he reflected on why he'd managed to be successful so consistently, and determined that it wasn't due to skill on his part... so he devoted himself to a deeper study. He didn't shy away from his past, he sought to improve upon the experiences and lessons he gained. As ever, you're more than welcome to your opinion, but I haven't seen any evidence that actually supports it, so I'm not sure who you've been listening to...



Xue Sheng said:


> Not Miyamoto Muhashi in his day, not a whole lot of people made fun of him. It wa sa quick and easy way to get yourself killed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, but the principles still stand. Having a basic understanding of social convention, appropriate etiquette, manners, what could set off a confrontation, and what could avoid one, are still important. In a way, that is where a lot of the etiquette in martial arts stems from... the particulars might change from culture to culture, but the lessons are consistent. If you don't believe me, head up to a biker gang and call them all fairies, then ask them if their beards tickle when they kiss each other... see if the "day" has really changed that much.



Xue Sheng said:


> Basically that is what Musashi said. He is talking about understanding your opponent so you can defeat him
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hmm. Honestly, my friend, that is possibly one of the most short-sighted and (well, I am being blunt here) ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. What do you think martial techniques are based on? Hope? All martial approaches are based on analyzing the opponent... whether sporting systems, where you develop a range of counters and attacks (and, in the higher levels, study the records and tapes of your opponents... why do you think that they do that?), self defence systems, where the approach is designed around an understanding of common attacks, high probabilities, realistic scenarios and so forth, or traditional arts, which are applied against (commonly) stylized attacks to teach methods of identifying particular attacks, to the point where you can readily analyze them and respond powerfully and immediately. You might want to start reading a little broader... Sun Tzu, for instance (If you know yourself, but not your enemy, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know the enemy, but not yourself, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you have no hope of victory, and if you know yourself, and know your enemy, you will not be defeated, even if you face 10,000 battles). Same thing.


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## Tgace (Aug 16, 2013)

I recently read a scholarly work on Musashi's life and the author stated that in reality Musashi was simply trying to land a gig as a swordsmanship instructor with a wealth lord. Which...bizarre as it seems...he was never successful in accomplishing.  

Many of the duels (and the hype associated with them) were similar to PR efforts we see today. It was implied that some (if not "many") of his duels were Cherry Picked affairs and Musashi used everything from psychological warfare (arriving late) to almost blatant "cheating". Although in a duel to the death "cheating" isn't the most accurate word to use.


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 16, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I recently read a scholarly work on Musashi's life and the author stated that in reality Musashi was simply trying to land a gig as a swordsmanship instructor with a wealth lord. Which...bizarre as it seems...he was never successful in accomplishing.
> 
> Many of the duels (and the hype associated with them) were similar to PR efforts we see today. It was implied that some (if not "many") of his duels were Cherry Picked affairs and Musashi used everything from *psychological warfare (arriving late) to almost blatant "cheating".* Although in a duel to the death "cheating" isn't the most accurate word to use.



From from something to critisize, the use of psychological warfare and "cheating" (whatever that may be in the context of a duel) are probably quite wise if one is interested in surviving. Others can speak much to the norms involved in dueling during the time period but, if I am not mistaken, several koryu include teachings not just on physical techniques but things such as strategy, tactics, how to put a castle under seige, what kind of terrain to have your own stronghold situated in, etc. The more modern martial arts, IMO, would do well to recapture a bit of that mindset (or at least modern martial artists, if styles as a whole aren't going to).

Out of curiosity, which book on Musashi were you reading? I read Kenji Tokitsu's _Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings_ some time ago and some of what you say in your post sounds similar to what is in that book.

Pax,

Chris


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## Tgace (Aug 16, 2013)

chrispillertkd said:


> From from something to critisize, the use of psychological warfare and "cheating" (whatever that may be in the context of a duel) are probably quite wise if one is interested in surviving. Others can speak much to the norms involved in dueling during the time period but, if I am not mistaken, several koryu include teachings not just on physical techniques but things such as strategy, tactics, how to put a castle under seige, what kind of terrain to have your own stronghold situated in, etc. The more modern martial arts, IMO, would do well to recapture a bit of that mindset (or at least modern martial artists, if styles as a whole aren't going to).
> 
> Out of curiosity, which book on Musashi were you reading? I read Kenji Tokitsu's _Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings_ some time ago and some of what you say in your post sounds similar to what is in that book.
> 
> ...



You are correct Sir!

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Cyriacus (Aug 16, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> It's cool that you're not a "Musashi follower" (whatever that means...), but honestly, if you're going to comment on something like the Gorin no Sho without knowing about it, and instead to give what comes across as a rather dismissive appraisal (which missed entirely what was said), I'm gonna pick it up.



It means i tried to read the book of five rings and wasnt interested. 



> Hmm. Honestly, my friend, that is possibly one of the most short-sighted and (well, I am being blunt here) ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. What do you think martial techniques are based on? Hope? All martial approaches are based on analyzing the opponent... whether sporting systems, where you develop a range of counters and attacks (and, in the higher levels, study the records and tapes of your opponents... why do you think that they do that?), self defence systems, where the approach is designed around an understanding of common attacks, high probabilities, realistic scenarios and so forth, or traditional arts, which are applied against (commonly) stylized attacks to teach methods of identifying particular attacks, to the point where you can readily analyze them and respond powerfully and immediately. You might want to start reading a little broader... Sun Tzu, for instance (If you know yourself, but not your enemy, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know the enemy, but not yourself, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you have no hope of victory, and if you know yourself, and know your enemy, you will not be defeated, even if you face 10,000 battles). Same thing.



Im not sure which of us youre addressing, but if youre addressing me, i guess i just dont see how the time youre being beaten senseless, stabbed, or shot is the time to try and analyze someone, as opposed to doing something about it. Like you just said, or at least what i got from it, thats what training is for. I feel a miscommunication may have taken place here.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 16, 2013)

Hi Chris,

Welcome back!  I think I will listen to some Japanese teachers and their personal lessons on Mushashi!  Thanks and you are entitled to your opinion as well since neither of us or anyone else was back in his day and we only have his writing to look at.  

When you look at Mushashi in the end he was an guy, writing, living the hermit life, failed to get that gig as Tgace wrote.  Basically had no family to speak of, etc.  Pretty sad really!  Was he great at what he did?  Yes by all accounts and his own written word.  Did he maybe obsess a bit and that obsession threw off the balance in his life?  Probably!  When you look at him you see someone unbalanced in life.  Sure he was great with the sword but unbalanced in life because of his obsession.  This obsession probably caused his failure at becoming an instructor for some wealthy lord.  If you read the account of his life I wouldn't hire him to work for me either. I know this is not a popular thought on the "sword saint" (yes I understand how it is used) but if you take a look at his whole life there is some loss of balance.  That loss of balance is why I referred to earlier that I pitied him.  I will bet his life on many levels to him was disappointing. (no wife, no kid's, no family, no job and probably lots of guilt and regret in the end)

Having said the above the Book of Five Rings offers some thing for a martial practitioner to read.  From understanding a bit about the importance of psychology and using it to your advantage as well as not allowing your obsession to consume you!  Balance is important after all!  In that he did some thing very good for us!

Maybe not the most popular take on Mushashi but definitely one to make you think!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 16, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Honestly, my friend, that is possibly one of the most short-sighted and (well, I am being blunt here) ignorant comments I've seen in a long time. What do you think martial techniques are based on? Hope? All martial approaches are based on analyzing the opponent... whether sporting systems, where you develop a range of counters and attacks (and, in the higher levels, study the records and tapes of your opponents... why do you think that they do that?), self defence systems, where the approach is designed around an understanding of common attacks, high probabilities, realistic scenarios and so forth, or traditional arts, which are applied against (commonly) stylized attacks to teach methods of identifying particular attacks, to the point where you can readily analyze them and respond powerfully and immediately. You might want to start reading a little broader... Sun Tzu, for instance (If you know yourself, but not your enemy, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know the enemy, but not yourself, you will be victorious in only half of the battles you fight. If you know not yourself, nor your enemy, you have no hope of victory, and if you know yourself, and know your enemy, you will not be defeated, even if you face 10,000 battles). Same thing.



Depending on who that was directed at I may take offense...or I may not.


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## Transk53 (Aug 16, 2013)

#Post 16 maybe..


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## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2013)

Tgace said:


> I recently read a scholarly work on Musashi's life and the author stated that in reality Musashi was simply trying to land a gig as a swordsmanship instructor with a wealth lord. Which...bizarre as it seems...he was never successful in accomplishing.
> 
> Many of the duels (and the hype associated with them) were similar to PR efforts we see today. It was implied that some (if not "many") of his duels were Cherry Picked affairs and Musashi used everything from psychological warfare (arriving late) to almost blatant "cheating". Although in a duel to the death "cheating" isn't the most accurate word to use.



Not an uncommon activity (attempting to secure employment)... and it might be noted that Musashi was unsuccessful in a number of such attempts, but not all. He was in the employ of Ogasawara Tadazane (earlier, he was employed by Ogasawara Tadanao, but not in a military position), and later to Hosokawa Tadatoshi. He was not successful in attempting to become a sword instructor to the Shogun, partially because there were already two teachers employed (Yagyu Munenori and Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki). As to the idea of the duels being PR efforts, some being sensationalized, some exaggerated, and the tactics being chosen being somewhat less than "clean combat", yep. Again, not that uncommon. 



chrispillertkd said:


> From from something to critisize, the use of psychological warfare and "cheating" (whatever that may be in the context of a duel) are probably quite wise if one is interested in surviving. Others can speak much to the norms involved in dueling during the time period but, if I am not mistaken, several koryu include teachings not just on physical techniques but things such as strategy, tactics, how to put a castle under seige, what kind of terrain to have your own stronghold situated in, etc. The more modern martial arts, IMO, would do well to recapture a bit of that mindset (or at least modern martial artists, if styles as a whole aren't going to).



I'd suggest that, without many of those aspects (specifically the idea of strategy and tactics, not necessarily siege warfare...), then it's not martial arts. It doesn't matter if it's Koryu or not (although many Koryu class their teachings as hyoho/heiho [&#20853;&#27861;], which means, roughly, strategy... including arts such as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu....hmm...)



chrispillertkd said:


> Out of curiosity, which book on Musashi were you reading? I read Kenji Tokitsu's _Miyamoto Musashi: His Life and Writings_ some time ago and some of what you say in your post sounds similar to what is in that book.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Fantastic book, highly recommended! Avoid Eiji Yoshikawa's "Musashi" unless you want a more colourful novel.... it's not a historical reference, although some try to see it as such.



Cyriacus said:


> It means i tried to read the book of five rings and wasnt interested.



Hmm. Again, fine... but that does beg the question of why you're commenting on it's contents and it's lessons/ideas....



Cyriacus said:


> Im not sure which of us youre addressing, but if youre addressing me, i guess i just dont see how the time youre being beaten senseless, stabbed, or shot is the time to try and analyze someone, as opposed to doing something about it. Like you just said, or at least what i got from it, thats what training is for. I feel a miscommunication may have taken place here.



I was addressing you. I used Xue's quotes to give context to your answers.

You've already analyzed them. In the situation, you're recognizing what you've already analyzed. Remember, the Gorin no Sho is designed to impart deeper understanding of the hyoho of Musashi's Ryu... it's about understanding why the Ryu does what it does. But analysis is necessary... whether you use terminology such as the OODA Loop, or a more classical series of concepts, analysis is required. The idea of "well, I'm just going to try to do something, and hope it works" is asking for injury and pain. You don't stop for 10 minutes to see what you can figure out, but by the same token, if you can't analyze (quickly!), you'll get killed (in the context). That's why I said the comments were short-sighted and (sorry!) ignorant.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> Welcome back!


 
Again, thanks.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think I will listen to some Japanese teachers and their personal lessons on Mushashi!


 
Well.... you'll forgive me if I consider them vastly uninformed then! You can listen to them, but, well... I'm not sure how much good that'd do you....



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Thanks and you are entitled to your opinion as well since neither of us or anyone else was back in his day and we only have his writing to look at.



Er... no. We have a lot more than just his writings, you know. We have, after all, his hyoho. We have the living traditions. We have the records from other sources. We have the records and stories contained within the Ryu.

We have a lot more than just the Gorin no Sho. We have the means to understand it.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> When you look at Mushashi in the end he was an guy, writing, living the hermit life, failed to get that gig as Tgace wrote.  Basically had no family to speak of, etc.  Pretty sad really!  Was he great at what he did?  Yes by all accounts and his own written word.  Did he maybe obsess a bit and that obsession threw off the balance in his life?  Probably!  When you look at him you see someone unbalanced in life.  Sure he was great with the sword but unbalanced in life because of his obsession.  This obsession probably caused his failure at becoming an instructor for some wealthy lord.  If you read the account of his life I wouldn't hire him to work for me either. I know this is not a popular thought on the "sword saint" (yes I understand how it is used) but if you take a look at his whole life there is some loss of balance.  That loss of balance is why I referred to earlier that I pitied him.  I will bet his life on many levels to him was disappointing. (no wife, no kid's, no family, no job and probably lots of guilt and regret in the end)



And this is what I mean when I say that I'd consider those that told you these things rather ill-informed....

Musashi didn't live a "hermit life" until very late... and even then, it wasn't anything to do with not having any family (three sons, so you know... and many, many students, including three very senior ones.... unless you're saying that Hatsumi's lack of children makes his life "pretty sad, really!"?). While Musashi didn't get the gig as teacher to the Shogun, he was hardly a destitute beggar eking out a meager existence, he was in the employ of some quite well respected daimyo over his time. He was also very insistent on the idea of balance in life, in training, in skills and knowledge... so that's off too.

No wife, sure. But there were three (adopted) sons, a number of jobs, and no regret. So, again, nope. You're listening to the wrong people.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Having said the above the Book of Five Rings offers some thing for a martial practitioner to read.  From understanding a bit about the importance of psychology and using it to your advantage as well as not allowing your obsession to consume you!  Balance is important after all!  In that he did some thing very good for us!



Is that what you think the Gorin no Sho says? Hmm... 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Maybe not the most popular take on Mushashi but definitely one to make you think!



Not the most accurate take either, Brian... 



Xue Sheng said:


> Depending on who that was directed at I may take offense...or I may not.



Ha, no, I was just using your comments for context. I was agreeing with you.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Again, fine... but that does beg the question of why you're commenting on it's contents and it's lessons/ideas....



Because i wanted to. Thats sorta like questioning why im on a MA forum when i stopped doing MA earlier this year.



> I was addressing you. I used Xue's quotes to give context to your answers.
> 
> You've already analyzed them. In the situation, *you're recognizing what you've already analyzed.* Remember, the Gorin no Sho is designed to impart deeper understanding of the hyoho of Musashi's Ryu... it's about understanding why the Ryu does what it does. But analysis is necessary... whether you use terminology such as the OODA Loop, or a more classical series of concepts, analysis is required. The idea of "well, I'm just going to try to do something, and hope it works" is asking for injury and pain. You don't stop for 10 minutes to see what you can figure out, but by the same token, if you can't analyze (quickly!), you'll get killed (in the context). That's why I said the comments were short-sighted and (sorry!) ignorant.



The bold part? That was my point, and what i was saying. Im not sure how you missed that. 

To reitterate, analyzing someone at the time, as i understand it, means trying to work all that stuff out AT THE TIME. Working it out in advance then recognizing it, to me, is working it out in advance and then recognizing it.


----------



## Chris Parker (Aug 17, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Because i wanted to. Thats sorta like questioning why im on a MA forum when i stopped doing MA earlier this year.



Hmm. No, not really. You have a background and interest in martial arts... but not in the Gorin no Sho. Additionally, you continued to argue against what you thought it said, rather than seek to understand.



Cyriacus said:


> The bold part? That was my point, and what i was saying. Im not sure how you missed that.
> 
> To reitterate, analyzing someone at the time, as i understand it, means trying to work all that stuff out AT THE TIME. Working it out in advance then recognizing it, to me, is working it out in advance and then recognizing it.



How I missed it? Well, mainly because you kept talking about how you didn't think the idea of understanding your attacker at the time was a good one... frankly, it is. Without it, well.... pain.


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## Tgace (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Not an uncommon activity (attempting to secure employment)... and it might be noted that Musashi was unsuccessful in a number of such attempts, but not all. He was in the employ of Ogasawara Tadazane (earlier, he was employed by Ogasawara Tadanao, but not in a military position), and later to Hosokawa Tadatoshi. He was not successful in attempting to become a sword instructor to the Shogun, partially because there were already two teachers employed (Yagyu Munenori and Ono Jiroemon Tadaaki). As to the idea of the duels being PR efforts, some being sensationalized, some exaggerated, and the tactics being chosen being somewhat less than "clean combat", yep. Again, not that uncommon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



According to Tokitsu Musashi wasn't under the official employ of a lord till he was taken in by Lord Hosokawa in his 50's a letter from Musashi to an intermediary to the lord stated:

"...

Until now, I have never been officially in the service of a lord. And time has passed; moreover, in the last years I have often been sick...."

Musashi was taken in under the status of "guest of the lord" and given an allowance of 300 koku. An ammount that...according to the author...was not a high one and would have been humiliating if he had been taken in as a vassal. An official arms master to a lord would often demand 3000-4000 koku.

Musashi therefore never officially served a lord as a vassal with land holdings or men.



Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 20, 2013)

Sorry for the delay in response but alas real life like camping, living and well just having a great time with family intruded!*

I would consider the Japanese Sensei that I know very well informed*.  They understand not only the martial but the cultural aspects that most non-Japanese simply have a hard time picking up.  They also have a depth of learning Japanese history that would be hard to have unless you lived in Japan, spoke the language and could actually read Japanese.  Plus they have a cultural history that any non-Japanese simply would not have.  If you are criticizing them you probably need to look in the mirror some and realize you have a lot to learn.   I think their take on Mushashi was open minded which is simply not what you find as much of out there.  I think being open minded and taking an *overall look* at his life gives you more depth.  Rather than a very small shallow view based solely on his writing, martial system and oral tradition from his students. (not that this is insignificant in any way)  There is quite a bit more to look at overall than just that!  We need to look at how he lived.  What positions or lack of positions did he hold.  His mistakes.  His failures.  His success. 

Yes he had adopted kid's.  Adopted men actually as if I am correct he adopted them when they were already of a significant age and it was more about opportunity than family! (for both)  If I recall correctly as soon as they had any success he was actually out of their lives or had moved on.

If you look deeply you will see he was just mediocre at best in everything but his swordsmanship.  *Doesn't mean he wasn't a great swordsman.*  He certainly is to be respected in that area.  If I were to pick one person at dueling in that kind of a venue he would be on the short list.  He certainly seemed obsessed with that part of his life. * An obsession like that does tend to throw off balance in anyone's life*.  

That does not mean that his life was not interesting or note worthy.  Just that I would not recommend anyone to follow his life path! (not his system, just how he lived his life)

I feel bad for him as he was searching for some thing that he apparently never attained in his life.  However, in his death he attained an immortality of sorts. (maybe even blown a little out of proportion to his actual standing)  *Still by all accounts he was a great swordsman!!!*


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 21, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Sorry for the delay in response but alas real life like camping, living and well just having a great time with family intruded!



First, how dare you have a life outside of MT 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I would consider the Japanese Sensei that I know very well informed *They understand not only the martial but the cultural aspects that most non-Japanese simply have a hard time picking up.  They also have a depth of learning Japanese history that would be hard to have unless you lived in Japan, spoke the language and could actually read Japanese.  Plus they have a cultural history that any non-Japanese simply would not have.  If you are criticizing them you probably need to look in the mirror some and realize you have a lot to learn.   I think their take on Mushashi was open minded which is simply not what you find as much of out there.  I think being open minded and taking an *overall look* at his life gives you more depth.  Rather than a very small shallow view based solely on his writing, martial system and oral tradition from his students. (not that this is insignificant in any way)  There is quite a bit more to look at overall than just that!  We need to look at how he lived.  What positions or lack of positions did he hold.  His mistakes.  His failures.  His success.
> 
> Yes he had adopted kid's.  Adopted men actually as if I am correct he adopted them when they were already of a significant age and it was more about opportunity than family! (for both)  If I recall correctly as soon as they had any success he was actually out of their lives or had moved on.
> 
> ...



Second, how dare you take the myth out of the man and then go and take a take a cool, unemotional, logical view of him based on those that have knowledge of the history and culture in which he lived.


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## Argus (Aug 21, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> They understand not only the martial but the cultural aspects that most non-Japanese simply have a hard time picking up. They also have a depth of learning Japanese history that would be hard to have unless you lived in Japan, spoke the language and could actually read Japanese. Plus they have a cultural history that any non-Japanese simply would not have.



There are those among us who spend a great chunk of our life learning just as much of the culture, history, and language of a country as they do learning its arts. I have a hunch that Chris is among them.

A few points that you should consider, though; culture and language, as with any art, do change over time, and the perceptions of modern Japanese society of their own past won't always match up with reality. Sometimes, an outsider with an inside perspective, and intimate knowledge, can see and understand things more clearly than someone with a less examined bias.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 11, 2013)

Tgace said:


> According to Tokitsu Musashi wasn't under the official employ of a lord till he was taken in by Lord Hosokawa in his 50's a letter from Musashi to an intermediary to the lord stated:
> 
> "...
> 
> ...



You're not actually disagreeing with me, there, Tgace... in fact, you're saying the same thing I did (that he was employed, but not as a vassal... although there is also some dispute over that. There are reasons that the previous positions were not mentioned/acknowledged when discussing his position with Hosokawa, but I'm not getting into that here), that he was employed in a range of positions prior to his time with Hosokawa, just not that one. And, for the record, that wasn't what Brian was saying... it was that Musashi was a failure at securing a position (as a sword teacher), therefore a failure in his life. And that is simply not correct in many, many regards. The details and reasons for the employment/patronage of Lord Hosokawa were also rather different to what is presented here...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Sorry for the delay in response but alas real life like camping, living and well just having a great time with family intruded!



Yeah, I've been out of it for a bit too.





Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I would consider the Japanese Sensei that I know very well informed*.  They understand not only the martial but the cultural aspects that most non-Japanese simply have a hard time picking up.  They also have a depth of learning Japanese history that would be hard to have unless you lived in Japan, spoke the language and could actually read Japanese.  Plus they have a cultural history that any non-Japanese simply would not have.  If you are criticizing them you probably need to look in the mirror some and realize you have a lot to learn.



That's all well and good, Brian, but thoroughly irrelevant unless their study is in Musashi and his Hyoho... which it isn't. As a result, nothing you said there shows them as having any real authority or knowledge of this particular subject... and, if you're referring to who I believe you are, I have seen many, many references to Musashi, his history, his works, his art, and so on, all of which have been consistently wrong. To be clear, I am referring to Hatsumi here specifically, although I extend it further than that. You want to believe what they say? Go for it. They're wrong, though, so I wouldn't put much stock in what they say. Do you have better sources?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think their take on Mushashi was open minded which is simply not what you find as much of out there.  I think being open minded and taking an *overall look* at his life gives you more depth.  Rather than a very small shallow view based solely on his writing, martial system and oral tradition from his students. (not that this is insignificant in any way)  There is quite a bit more to look at overall than just that!  We need to look at how he lived.  What positions or lack of positions did he hold.  His mistakes.  His failures.  His success.



Er... what? "Open minded"? Really? By commenting without knowing, or being part of what they're commenting on at all? That's not being open minded, Brian, it's being ignorant and arrogant at the same time. And what on earth are you talking about with "rather than a small shallow view based solely on his writings, martial system and oral tradition"?!?! You mean all the actual first hand accounts of the guy? You mean the actual histories left? You mean the people who have maintained a constant contact with the person and all the above? How on earth is basing an understanding on all the actual information, passed as part of a living tradition, "small and shallow"?!? Seriously, that's just a ridiculous statement to make.  



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yes he had adopted kid's.  Adopted men actually as if I am correct he adopted them when they were already of a significant age and it was more about opportunity than family! (for both)  If I recall correctly as soon as they had any success he was actually out of their lives or had moved on.
> 
> If you look deeply you will see he was just mediocre at best in everything but his swordsmanship.  *Doesn't mean he wasn't a great swordsman.*  He certainly is to be respected in that area.  If I were to pick one person at dueling in that kind of a venue he would be on the short list.  He certainly seemed obsessed with that part of his life. * An obsession like that does tend to throw off balance in anyone's life*.



See, this is what I mean when I say you're listening to the wrong people... Musashi was actually better known as an artist, rather than a swordsman, so this idea of "he was mediocre at best in everything but his swordsmanship" is completely against the reality of what is known. And, again, you're thinking that there was a lack of balance... based on what? Where do you get this idea of obsession from? Focus, certainly, but this insistence that he was obsessed to the point of being pitied is frankly baseless. You are simply coming across as not knowing what you're talking about, really.


Brian R. VanCise said:


> That does not mean that his life was not interesting or note worthy.  Just that I would not recommend anyone to follow his life path! (not his system, just how he lived his life)
> 
> I feel bad for him as he was searching for some thing that he apparently never attained in his life.  However, in his death he attained an immortality of sorts. (maybe even blown a little out of proportion to his actual standing)  *Still by all accounts he was a great swordsman!!!*



Well, you can feel bad for him, but you really should know that it doesn't seem to be based in anything other than incorrect perceptions taken from people who don't know what they're talking about. 



Xue Sheng said:


> First, how dare you have a life outside of MT
> 
> Second, how dare you take the myth out of the man and then go and take a take a cool, unemotional, logical view of him based on those that have knowledge of the history and culture in which he lived.



That's the issue, though, Xue... it isn't a "cool, unemotional, logical view", as Brian (or those he has listened to) are not taking into account the actual accounts of the man himself... and don't have knowledge of this specific history. Just knowing Japanese history or culture doesn't cut it, frankly, as this is specific knowledge, not general.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 11, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> That's the issue, though, Xue... it isn't a "cool, unemotional, logical view", as Brian (or those he has listened to) are not taking into account the actual accounts of the man himself... and don't have knowledge of this specific history. Just knowing Japanese history or culture doesn't cut it, frankly, as this is specific knowledge, not general.



To be honest Chris, I don't much care about this topic, I have my view of it and I'm rather ok with that. But to clasrify the "unemotional view" thingy..... I am saying that as uposed to what tusually occurs and that is the deification of the man which has and does occure and thereby has created a somewhat skewed view of Mushashi and his life. 

As to history and culture; Mushashi did not live in a bubble and he was the product of his culture at that time in history in which he lived so an understanding of that culture and history will give one a better understanding of the man. You cannot look at him separate from his culture or the time in which he lived if you are going to understand him at all, his history, and for that matter any person from the pasts history, is specific to that person but it is not isolated form the things that are going on around that person at the time he/she lived nor is it isolated from the culture in which they lived either......so knowing the history "and" culture at the time Miyamoto Mushashi lived is very important and has a great impact on ones understanding of the specific history of Miyamoto Mushashi. 

Although I am sure you will not agree and I am equally as sure I will likely not take this any further since it would likely be pointless. Also remember that I previously I stated I don't much care about this topic, meaning I don't really care to discuss it further, I'm good with what I already know on the topic of Miyamoto Mushashi.


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2013)

It's not for me to judge if another man's life is out of balance or not. By all accounts Musashi was an excentric and driven man who chose a difficult path in life. But as Chris noted, he did accomplish much more than simply becoming a famous swordsman. Check out the following:

http://www.kampaibudokai.org/MusashiArt.htm


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## Langenschwert (Sep 11, 2013)

Reading GRNS is fine for any MAist. However, you can't really understand it unless you're doing HNIR (or Noda-Ha HNIR). Heck, I have some training in HNIR and I don't understand the book either. According to Imai Soke, you can't understand it without knowledge of Buddhist Sutras. Guess how much knowledge of those I have. It's an integer between -1 and 1. So by all means read it and get what you can out of it. Just don't think that you're getting out of it exactly what Musashi intended. 

-Mark


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2013)

There's plenty in TBFR on strategy, martial philosophy and other "non sword" topics to learn from. 

The "fire book" is probably the one that is mostly sword specific....

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Chris Parker (Sep 12, 2013)

You seem to be missing what we're saying there... We're not saying that the only people who can get anything out of the Gorin no Sho are members of the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, in fact, we've said a number of times that many people can get many things out of it... we're saying that the only people who can understand what is actually meant and intended are the practitioners of Musashi's Hyoho. So, yeah, there's a lot there about strategy... but it's not intended as generic strategic concepts, it's intended as particular strategies and tactics applied to Musashi's Ryu-ha. The Hi no Maki is focused specifically on the technical aspects of Musashi's Hyoho, sure, but the entire book revolves around kenjutsu... and, while the entire book is sword-specific (in context), it is really more accurate to say that the entire book is Niten Ichi Ryu specific. Can you get something out of it? Sure, and good for you. Doesn't change the fact that you simply will not be able to get what is meant by the book, as you will not be aware of the context surrounding what is written. It really can't be forgotten that the book was written for someone who was completely and fully trained and initiated into the physical (technical) methods of Musashi... so those technical aspects and methods are behind everything written. If you don't know those methods, you don't know what the words refer to.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 12, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> To be honest Chris, I don't much care about this topic, I have my view of it and I'm rather ok with that. But to clasrify the "unemotional view" thingy..... I am saying that as uposed to what tusually occurs and that is the deification of the man which has and does occure and thereby has created a somewhat skewed view of Mushashi and his life.
> 
> As to history and culture; Mushashi did not live in a bubble and he was the product of his culture at that time in history in which he lived so an understanding of that culture and history will give one a better understanding of the man. You cannot look at him separate from his culture or the time in which he lived if you are going to understand him at all, his history, and for that matter any person from the pasts history, is specific to that person but it is not isolated form the things that are going on around that person at the time he/she lived nor is it isolated from the culture in which they lived either......so knowing the history "and" culture at the time Miyamoto Mushashi lived is very important and has a great impact on ones understanding of the specific history of Miyamoto Mushashi.
> 
> Although I am sure you will not agree and I am equally as sure I will likely not take this any further since it would likely be pointless. Also remember that I previously I stated I don't much care about this topic, meaning I don't really care to discuss it further, I'm good with what I already know on the topic of Miyamoto Mushashi.



*Hard to say it any better than this!*  Some times people just need to look a little deeper and realize that not every historical figure is exactly as what history has portrayed.


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## Tgace (Sep 12, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> You seem to be missing what we're saying there... We're not saying that the only people who can get anything out of the Gorin no Sho are members of the Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, in fact, we've said a number of times that many people can get many things out of it... we're saying that the only people who can understand what is actually meant and intended are the practitioners of Musashi's Hyoho. So, yeah, there's a lot there about strategy... but it's not intended as generic strategic concepts, it's intended as particular strategies and tactics applied to Musashi's Ryu-ha. The Hi no Maki is focused specifically on the technical aspects of Musashi's Hyoho, sure, but the entire book revolves around kenjutsu... and, while the entire book is sword-specific (in context), it is really more accurate to say that the entire book is Niten Ichi Ryu specific. Can you get something out of it? Sure, and good for you. Doesn't change the fact that you simply will not be able to get what is meant by the book, as you will not be aware of the context surrounding what is written. It really can't be forgotten that the book was written for someone who was completely and fully trained and initiated into the physical (technical) methods of Musashi... so those technical aspects and methods are behind everything written. If you don't know those methods, you don't know what the words refer to.



Why do you think Im addressing you? I simply made a statement.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Chris Parker (Sep 13, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Xue Sheng said:
> 
> 
> > To be honest Chris, I don't much care about this topic, I have my view of it and I'm rather ok with that. But to clasrify the "unemotional view" thingy..... I am saying that as uposed to what tusually occurs and that is the deification of the man which has and does occure and thereby has created a somewhat skewed view of Mushashi and his life.
> ...



Look, Xue said he wasn't interested in pursuing a discussion, so I left his comments alone (although I wasn't really calling him out in my quoting of him previously, more showing that, well, although you are coming across as more open/rational, you really aren't either here). But if you're going to try this, I might as well address it.

Frankly, while having an understanding of the culture surrounding Musashi at the time is important to place him in his context, this line of reasoning is plainly incorrect. It's like saying you've studied peasant life in Tudor England, therefore you can comment on how King Henry VIII felt without actually researching Henry himself, instead only relying on personal perception and listening to people who don't know. It's also very, very important to realize that my comments on Musashi do not stem from any form of deification, nor of any kind of common perception in a cultural zeitgeist... it comes from the people who knew him, from Musashi himself, from what he has left behind (in far more than just written words), and much, much more. You, on the other hand Brian, have been consistently incorrect in your assumptions, perceptions, observations, and comments about Musashi and his life. Your only recourse has been to state that you trust your "Japanese Sensei"... with the implication that you trust them because they are Japanese, despite your information being inaccurate and incorrect. It doesn't matter if your information comes from Japanese people, even Japanese martial artists, regardless of seniority, if they don't know what they're talking about... and, again, if you number Hatsumi there, he has shown again and again that he has no insight or knowledge of Musashi or his Hyoho. That's fine, he can't know everything.

I'm not dealing with Musashi "exactly as what history has portrayed", Brian... and yours doesn't seem to deal with Musashi in any way other than the imaginings of people who haven't researched or learnt.



Tgace said:


> Why do you think Im addressing you? I simply made a statement.



Really? I didn't think you were addressing me, specifically, Tgace, I was responding to your statement... as your statement was inaccurate in regards to the content and context of the tome... by pointing out that each and every person with any connection to, or experience with Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu has talked about how you can't get what is meant or intended without that study (including the post directly before yours), which you seemed again to be arguing against.


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## Tgace (Sep 13, 2013)

Tgace said:


> There's plenty in TBFR on strategy, martial philosophy and other "non sword" topics to learn from.
> 
> The "fire book" is probably the one that is mostly sword specific....
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



How was that inaccurate? Seeing that you agreed with me?

You are one of those "never wrong" types aren't you?

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Chris Parker (Sep 13, 2013)

The entire book is on strategy, however it's specific not general; the idea of martial philosophy presented is more about "here's how to follow what I do", and the whole book is centered on sword... not just the Hi no Maki. You could also state that the Kaze no Maki is more about sword... it's just about sword ideas in other schools, and why they're not favoured within Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. But, most importantly, it was the implication that reading it without the context of the Ryu it is entirely dependent upon for contextual understanding is fine for people to learn what Musashi was talking about... when they simply won't. In many cases, it's like me saying I'm going to teach you how to play a famous song on guitar, and only teaching you three chords (Am, Gmaj and Fmaj)... now, what song have I taught you? Stairway to Heaven? Please Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood? I Heard It Through The Grapevine? Tenacious D's The Greatest Song In The World? DAAS's (I Wanna Spill The Blood Of A) Hippy? How do you know?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 13, 2013)

Hey Chris,

Round 10..... 



I think in the end that he is a historical figure who is blown way out of proportion based on what he did or did not do.

*My sources are not Hatsumi Sensei*.  No instead they are a Japanese Iaido Sensei and another Japanese Sensei.  I also have
 a good friend with who is Japanese and is now living back in Japan.  When talking with him it is always interesting
 because he is the one who has the least favorable impression of Mushashi and sees him more like a cartoon character.  
I am always fascinated by non martial practitioner views in this manner.   He does not buy into the legend of Mushashi.

 If we just look at the stories regarding Mushashi and understand that in the East or in the whole of the world stories over time get exaggerated 
 then you would come to the realization that more than likely half of what he wrote or people wrote about him are exaggerations or outright
 fabrications.

 We know that he fought in one battle and his side lost and that he sure ran as hell ran to escape the slaughter!  If he didn't he would be dead and
 his legend would never have been!

 We know that he had very little in the way of skills to make his way in the world other than utilizing his swordmanship and by all accounts his natural attributes
 so that he went around challenging people to build a reputation as a swordsman.  Which never led to anything for him by all accounts except the legend that is
 Mushashi in the here and now.   

 We know he wanted to teach his system of swordsmanship and failed to be retained by a lord to do so. (which is incredibly telling or damning)

 We know he killed people by his own account and anyone who has been in that situation will let you know
 it changes you and if you do not have some kind of regret then more than likely you have a mental disorder
 of some kind.  This plays out whether it is today or back in the past. 

 We know he had no real family by all accounts.  Sure he adopted some grown men but in those type of situations it is almost always a matter of convenience.  Meaning they were hoping to use him to advance their position some how and on his end it was more than likely that way as well.  We also know that when one did advance he moved on.  Did they even talk after that?  We don't know!!!  However he did not stick around.  Hmmmmm........

 We believe he wrote the Gorin No Sho though there is a possibility it was written by his students.  *Personally
 I believe he wrote it!
*
We know he founded his own system!

 We believe he did some artwork though this is nothing of real importance as many Samurai also did this.
Particularly in his older age because by all accounts he might not have had much to do!
Also many Japanese teachers of the Martial Science do this.  Not really all that significant in any way.

 We know he died and like all men or women he died just like you or I will.  Because he was a man.  Someone who 
 had dreams, aspirations, desires, etc.  Just a guy who put his clothes on like everyone else!  

 We do know that after World War II over time the Japanese Government, people, film industry eventually came to be very 
 interested in the history of the Samurai again (they were sick of anything to do with war for awhile) and guess what they latched onto some principle characters and in some 
 cases built them up maybe way beyond their importance.  I do believe Mushashi was one of them!  Actually the most significant one.

*If you take half of what is the story of Mushashi then you need to understand that he still was a great swordsmen.*  Just that 
 realistically during the course of his life he failed to attain certain things that he wanted.  Why didn't he get a position to teach as a vassal
 for a lord if he was that good?  Why was he never retained again as a Samurai by another lord when he was young enough to 
 provide service in that capacity? (damning again)  Why did he by all accounts live in a cave if he had better options?  *Who in their right mind lives in a cave?* 
 That certainly is nothing to be proud about.  Whether in the past or now! (I would say the same thing about a few other historical figures)

I think if you look realistically at Musashi you will find that in the end he
was just a man with all faults that men have!  That includes you, me and everyone else on this board.

When I look at his life as a whole he looks like someone out of balance.  Obsessed even.  In the end when things are blown out of proportion it really makes me start to wonder!

*I did however enjoy reading his book multiple times*.  Did not make me want to study his system though.   That is of course no fault of his own.

All I am saying there is the legend of Musashi and then there is the truth of Mushashi.  I think even with the truth he warrants us looking at his book, system and life.  Just not with jaded glasses!

You are someone who is very knowledgeable so why can you not see that his legend is blown out of proportion is beyond me.  In all other accounts you seem to be a realist and a pragmatic person.  However, if you want to choose to believe the legend of Mushashi then by all accounts do so but you cannot expect everyone to buy into it!  Lord knows you are the first one to poke holes in other systems stories.  I am a realist enough person to totally look at any stories within a system whether I train in it or not and also understand that their may be a little fudging going on.



 Hope all is well in Australia,

 Brian


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## Chris Parker (Sep 22, 2013)

Right, I'm back.

Before going through this, I'm going to say that you've completely missed the issue I've had with your comments, Brian. Not a fan of Musashi? Not a problem. Think he's over-rated, and a product more of a good publicity campaign than anything else? Again, you're not alone, and I have no issue with that. Saying his life was sad, he was pathetic, and to be pitied, based on nothing but an interpretation completely removed from any understanding and coming from your own sense of values? That, I have an issue with, especially the way it's been phrased here, as there isn't any support for that appraisal of his life (when he was living it), nor any of the other value judgments you've made.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> Round 10.....
> 
> I think in the end that he is a historical figure who is blown way out of proportion based on what he did or did not do.



Cool... but that's not what I've been taking issue with.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *My sources are not Hatsumi Sensei*.  No instead they are a Japanese Iaido Sensei and another Japanese Sensei.  I also have
> a good friend with who is Japanese and is now living back in Japan.  When talking with him it is always interesting
> because he is the one who has the least favorable impression of Mushashi and sees him more like a cartoon character.
> I am always fascinated by non martial practitioner views in this manner.   He does not buy into the legend of Mushashi.



Again, not "buying into the legend of Musashi" isn't an issue... Otake Sensei isn't a fan either, and I have no issue with that at all. But, frankly, your sources still sound very removed from any actual knowledge of Musashi, and, bluntly Brian, the fact that you have yet to be able to even spell his name correctly doesn't make you look the most informed either. But the question here is what exactly makes your Iaido and "other" Japanese instructors, or this non-martial practitioner (who, one would assume, only has the popular media to really go by anyway) informed sources on Musashi, to the point that you think someone who doesn't practice martial arts, simply by dirnt of being Japanese, is a better source than the membership of the system Musashi left for information on Musashi himself?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> If we just look at the stories regarding Mushashi and understand that in the East or in the whole of the world stories over time get exaggerated
> then you would come to the realization that more than likely half of what he wrote or people wrote about him are exaggerations or outright
> fabrications.



Seriously? Do we need to go through the histories of the other arts we share? Do you think anything like that is an unknown possibility, or likelihood to me? Many of the stories about Musashi are known to have come more from sources like Eiji Yoshikawa's highly fictionalized book, and form no part of anything I have considered a source... why do you think I would take such things to form an opinion?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know that he fought in one battle and his side lost and that he sure ran as hell ran to escape the slaughter!  If he didn't he would be dead and
> his legend would never have been!



No, actually, we don't. There are reports of him in a number of battles, none of which are absolutely verified (in fact, there are claims of him being at Sekigahara, but there is confusion as to even who's side he was on... personally, I don't think he was there at all), in one battle he was supposed to have been taken out of it by a rock thrown by a footsoldier that hit him in the leg, so "run(ning) as hell to escape" is also not in any way confirmed, or accurate. Seriously, Brian, you're listening to the wrong people.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know that he had very little in the way of skills to make his way in the world other than utilizing his swordmanship and by all accounts his natural attributes
> so that he went around challenging people to build a reputation as a swordsman.  Which never led to anything for him by all accounts except the legend that is
> Mushashi in the here and now.


 
Garbage, Brian. I've already pointed out his fame as an artist. And, yes, he did also have a reputation gained by his dueling, but to say that he had very little in the way of other skills is incorrect, and you've already been corrected and called on it.  



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know he wanted to teach his system of swordsmanship and failed to be retained by a lord to do so. (which is incredibly telling or damning)



You're stretching again, Brian. He did teach his system, in a number of iterations, over a number of years, and in a number of locations. He failed to gain a position as a sword teacher to the Shogun... that's all that you know. Not anything about his teaching success outside of trying to get a single job. Tell me, if you apply for 10 jobs, and don't get all of them, do we pity you for having a sad life?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know he killed people by his own account and anyone who has been in that situation will let you know
> it changes you and if you do not have some kind of regret then more than likely you have a mental disorder
> of some kind.  This plays out whether it is today or back in the past.



You need to read a lot more about both the samurai mentality and the times, Brian. A lot more. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know he had no real family by all accounts.  Sure he adopted some grown men but in those type of situations it is almost always a matter of convenience.  Meaning they were hoping to use him to advance their position some how and on his end it was more than likely that way as well.  We also know that when one did advance he moved on.  Did they even talk after that?  We don't know!!!  However he did not stick around.  Hmmmmm........



And, again, you're overlaying your personal values on a situation you don't understand. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We believe he wrote the Gorin No Sho though there is a possibility it was written by his students.  *Personally
> I believe he wrote it!*



"We"? Who is this "we"? And, do we really need to go through this again? Hell, I covered that idea back on page 2, post #24 of this thread, two years ago http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/92110-The-book-of-5-rings/page2!



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know he founded his own system!



And? What does this have to do with anything? Was anyone disputing it?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We believe he did some artwork though this is nothing of real importance as many Samurai also did this.
> Particularly in his older age because by all accounts he might not have had much to do!
> Also many Japanese teachers of the Martial Science do this.  Not really all that significant in any way.



Oh, for crying out loud... 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We know he died and like all men or women he died just like you or I will.  Because he was a man.  Someone who
> had dreams, aspirations, desires, etc.  Just a guy who put his clothes on like everyone else!


 
"He died"?!?! Really?!?! You don't say!! And, gotta ask, Brian, who on earth ever disputed that he was a regular, mortal man? What image do you think other people have of him, that you need to point out that he was a real person, and really died, like other real people to bring their image of him down? 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> We do know that after World War II over time the Japanese Government, people, film industry eventually came to be very
> interested in the history of the Samurai again (they were sick of anything to do with war for awhile) and guess what they latched onto some principle characters and in some
> cases built them up maybe way beyond their importance.  I do believe Mushashi was one of them!  Actually the most significant one.



None of which has anything to do with the history of Musashi, or the knowledge of his actual life. You're thinking that the information I'm talking about comes from somewhere it doesn't.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *If you take half of what is the story of Mushashi then you need to understand that he still was a great swordsmen.*  Just that
> realistically during the course of his life he failed to attain certain things that he wanted.  Why didn't he get a position to teach as a vassal
> for a lord if he was that good?  Why was he never retained again as a Samurai by another lord when he was young enough to
> provide service in that capacity? (damning again)  Why did he by all accounts live in a cave if he had better options?  *Who in their right mind lives in a cave?*
> ...



So, because he was a man, as any other, and didn't get absolutely everything work out perfectly in your head, we should pity him? Really? That's my issue, Brian, you can say he's not all that he's cracked up to be, but this idea that he's to be pitied for, frankly, being a real person is damn offensive. Because, by your logic, I should be pitied as well. And, frankly, I resent that.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> When I look at his life as a whole he looks like someone out of balance.  Obsessed even.  In the end when things are blown out of proportion it really makes me start to wonder!



Then you've missed the entire point of his writings, have no knowledge of his teachings, haven't listened to a thing you've been told, and are applying your own values where they don't apply.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I did however enjoy reading his book multiple times*.  Did not make me want to study his system though.   That is of course no fault of his own.



Pointless, Brian.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> All I am saying there is the legend of Musashi and then there is the truth of Mushashi.  I think even with the truth he warrants us looking at his book, system and life.  Just not with jaded glasses!



Jaded glasses?!?! Are you kidding me?!?! Brian, you're the one looking with jaded glasses here... trying to see shortcomings and faults where there isn't anything. You might accuse others of looking through rose-coloured glasses, but jaded? That's what you're doing. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> You are someone who is very knowledgeable so why can you not see that his legend is blown out of proportion is beyond me.  In all other accounts you seem to be a realist and a pragmatic person.  However, if you want to choose to believe the legend of Mushashi then by all accounts do so but you cannot expect everyone to buy into it!  Lord knows you are the first one to poke holes in other systems stories.  I am a realist enough person to totally look at any stories within a system whether I train in it or not and also understand that their may be a little fudging going on.



And, again, you've completely missed what I've been taking issue with, as well as missing entirely what my take on Musashi is, where it comes from, and just how realistic it is. Seriously, talk to me about the duel with Sasaki Kojiro, you'll see my take on the legend of Musashi... you're trying to paint me as worshiping him, which is incredibly far from the case. But, to be completely frank here, you are in absolutely no position to comment on the legend or history of Musashi, as you've consistently gotten it wrong.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 22, 2013)

Most of the above is frankly not worth going over and over and over and over and over again with you Chris.   Round 12.........

Frankly Chris we will have to agree or more likely disagree here.  Your take on Musashi (hey I spelled it right but then again frankly I don't care as I actually do make spelling mistakes) is simply not the only one out there.  Your not an expert on everything Mushashi because well frankly it is hard to be an expert on the life and times of a man that is probably more than half myth.  We can only surmise on a lot of his history because well we just don't know if much of it is more than a fantasy.  

I get it that you do not like the fact that I feel his life was more than likely out of balance.  So what, really if one person disagrees with your perspective then you are offended?  *Really!!!* (get a little thicker skin please)  If we look at the legend of Musashi then quite frankly either you buy into it or you don't.  I don't! (I'm not the only one)  If you do not like that then well that is cool it does not offend me even a little bit.  So if I think because he is out of balance and that I pity him.  Really, that again should not bother you at all.  Even if you do not agree with it.  I could understand that it might bother you if you were related to him but otherwise?  *Really!!!*  I have had this conversation before with other people who believe pretty much everything about Musashi and guess what they were not offended.  

However, if you have a vested interest in Musashi and or his history, legend, etc. then you have some strange nerve calling anyone else out on looking through jaded glasses.  Not saying you do but if you did then sit back reevaluate what you are doing here rethink your position.

Your not by any means helping to change how people feel about the legend or fantasy that some people have of Miyomoto Musashi.  Some people will buy all in and well others will be very, very, very skeptical.  I am a skeptic so it is not surprising even a little bit where my perspective comes from.

We can keep dancing here but frankly you haven't brought forth anything that I did not already know.  If anything you have just reinforced what I believe in that people need to be skeptical when the story is grand or simply too big.

The ball is in your court so we can continue on but frankly your not going to change my opinion on this matter!  Thanks for trying though and try not to be offended if I continue to disagree with you!  I really mean that Chris as from all accounts you are a good guy, smart and can really take a lot of time on these types of discussions. (whereas I have only a few minutes to make a response.  So we can continue to dance but frankly it is a waste of both of our time.


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## Zero (Sep 23, 2013)

Look Brian, you weren't to know, but Chris actually is living in a cave right now so has every right to be offended, just go easy!That said it is a well kept cave.And there I was thinking your mispelling of 'Muhashi' had been a deliberate pun.


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## Zero (Sep 23, 2013)

Zero said:


> Look Brian, you weren't to know, but Chris actually is living in a cave right now so has every right to be offended, just go easy!That said it is a well kept cave.And there I was thinking your mispelling of 'Muhashi' had been a deliberate pun.



On a serious note, while (to me) Musashi is a fascinating subject I can tsee how we went so off piste to the Op's question about devining or determining an opponent's intentions, or maybe this had been done to death?
Cyriacus normally has sensible comments but I have to disagree wholeheartedly with him if I follow what he is saying. In a tournamemnt sense, it is not about freezing and wasting crucial split seconds in the fight, it is about 'home work' and having an understanding of your opponent's style, weaknesses/preferences and any 'tells'/telegraphs, so when you step in the ring -while you have not ascribed to a set game plan - you are as familiar with him as possible (as Chris said, watching fight footage etc).
But there is more to it, in a SD or street altercation you will not have had the luxury of prepping but you can still in many instances assess your surroundings, the guy (and his homies) coming into your zone, assess his clothing, any potential weapons etc.
It is about determining your opponent's 'wa' and by this I mean the thug who is not even sure he is going to yet be your 'opponent'. At times you can actually sense their 'wa' before they know it themselves. This applies in tournaments and in the street - real life.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 29, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Most of the above is frankly not worth going over and over and over and over and over again with you Chris.   Round 12.........
> 
> Frankly Chris we will have to agree or more likely disagree here.  Your take on Musashi (hey I spelled it right but then again frankly I don't care as I actually do make spelling mistakes) is simply not the only one out there.  Your not an expert on everything Mushashi because well frankly it is hard to be an expert on the life and times of a man that is probably more than half myth.  We can only surmise on a lot of his history because well we just don't know if much of it is more than a fantasy.
> 
> ...



Brian,

You've again missed entirely what I've been saying. And, for the record, you're misusing the term "Jaded", which is what I was saying when you first used it. You are, simply, being jaded with regards to Musashi, so accusing me of looking through "jaded glasses" is to not know what you're saying... I gave you the actual phrase you're meaning, for the record. But, when all is said and done, there is no basis to your opinion other than your personal value system. It is not supported by anything known about Musashi at all (and no, for the tenth time, I'm not referring to any part of the "legend", I'm referring to what is actually known), so it'd be like me saying that Takamatsu was a sad, pitiable looney because he spent his life learning martial arts, and had no kids... only a cat his student got for him. His life must have been so out of balance, the only thing he was any good at was waving a stick around. Is there any basis for me saying that about Takamatsu? Nope. But it's an interpretation that fits what you're saying. That's the point.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 29, 2013)

Well Chris, we could carry on with the dance and start talking about other things regarding Musashi.  Maybe we should move on and talk about the legend surrounding his personal hygiene!That might be fun as well!  Or maybe we can stop the dance and realize (which I already have) that your idea of Musashi may not simply mesh with everyone's idea of the legend of Musashi!  However, we are free to carry on if you wish!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 29, 2013)

Chris,

Lots of people are out of balance with there life.  I do not think Musashi was the exception in this manner just one of many!


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## Chris Parker (Sep 29, 2013)

Brian, I agree that this is getting pointless. You have still missed the actual point, which is that your assessment of his life has no basis in anything whatsoever, and, in a number of cases, goes directly against the evidence and accounts left. This is nothing to do with any "legend", just the application of your personal views to something you don't know enough about to make comment on. I've been arguing that, perhaps, you might want to re-examine where those personal values actually fit, because they don't match anything known. Not that the legend is all completely correct, that Musashi was the greatest human ever, or anything else, just that your take is based, not on Musashi himself, but your own values. I mean, your first post here was attacking the idea of referring to Musashi as "Kensei", as you "couldn't see anything 'saintly' in his history of killing people". I explained what the term actually meant (your personal value on the word "saint" being irrelevant and inaccurate in this context), and you responded with "Oh, I know that"... if you knew it, why did you get it so badly wrong in the first place? From there, you've continued to apply your values without taking into account the fact that your view is not supported by reality, history, first-hand accounts, and so on. It's not supported by the writings left, or the teachings that Musashi left. That's been the point... you've been making judgement calls based on nothing but your personal (modern) values. I've been saying that they're not relevant to a completely different context, and are not an accurate way of viewing the man. That's it.


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## Tgace (Sep 30, 2013)

Last word war....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 30, 2013)

Obviously Chris you like to lead when dancing.  Which is okay because I lead as well! (LOL)  The fact of the point Chris is that you romanticize Musashi.  You buy into the myth, legend or maybe buy into it because you have a personal stake in this legend.  Myself, well I simply do not buy into the legend of Musashi.  I think that as with many things told over time that much of what we know of Musashi is either *blown way out of proportion or simply not true*.  However, I am sure that shortly you will tell me this simply could not be true and that no character out of history has ever had their story blown out of proportion!

Like I said before we can keep dancing but you simply have no historical proof that I am wrong. (I am also certainly not the only person who feels this way)   You have only an opinion and a belief in the legend of Musashi!  Believe away if that makes you feel good in your training but you simply cannot expect everyone else to believe exactly the way you do.  With any larger than life figure you need to understand that much of what is thought to be true might not be true.  I mean by all accounts Musashi is thought to have been a slob with his personal hygiene. (one more reason why I feel he was out of balance)  He apparently did not bath much or take care of himself. (a fact that would be very relevant to any Japanese that he met back in time or now) That just may just be another reason why he never succeeded in achieving what he wanted as a sword instructor!  You see this is just one more story of the legend of Musashi that may or may not be true.  *We don't know*! (unless you have a time machine)  However, we do know he never achieved a position as a sword instructor to a Japanese lord of during his life time. (TGace pointed that out before if you forgot)

So we can continue the dance but frankly it is certainly a waste of my time....  Maybe you have more time on your hands but I do not and would rather stop the dance as it is pointless!  I really do not think you are going to change my position and frankly I know you are invested in your position....


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## Chris Parker (Oct 2, 2013)

Brian. You've said a number of times that you don't have a lot of time... might I suggest that, should you decide to use any more on this thread, you actually read what is written before spouting off the same mistakes and misunderstandings again? I have not, ever, in this or any other thread, stated that I agree that the "legend" of Musashi is historically accurate... I have, in fact, denied that a number of times. Your insistence that I "romanticize Musashi" is not supported by anything posted here, other than you repeating it, and my telling you you're way off in your estimation.

Seriously, you've missed completely what I've said, and what my take on Musashi is. You've missed entirely what the issue with your comments has been. Read the thread. And, frankly, I'll deal with your deeply offensive hypocrisy in another thread.


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## Tgace (Oct 2, 2013)

Last word war II....

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 2, 2013)

I think this thread has run it's course and is now merging into another thread. (unfortunately)  

We will agree to disagree Chris.  No hard feelings on my part!


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## Chris Parker (Oct 5, 2013)

So that's a "no, I won't read what you've said", is it? 

Look, I'm going to sum up a few things here. 

I've stated (a few times) that the embellished and exaggerated stories are just that. I've said that the "legend" is as much myth as anything else. I've said that I'm relying on what are considered more accurate records, from both within and without the Ryu that Musashi left himself. I have repeatedly pointed out that the impression you have of his life (that it was "sad", "to be pitied", "out of balance", "obsessed" etc) are not supported by such sources... as well as pointing out a number of instances where you're basing such an idea on inaccurate representations coming from people who don't actually know the subject. I've corrected your take on the meaning/implication of the Japanese term "Kensei" (sword saint)... after which you said "yeah, I know"... which begs the question, of course, of if you knew what the term really referred to, what was your issue with it not matching your concept of what a "saint" is like? It'd be like you complaining that you don't like going to McDonalds because you don't like the colour green, don't like the association, and don't like being surrounded by it, only to be told that the colours for McDonalds are yellow and red (as they're supposed to increase appetite, for the record), and you saying "yes, I know that already".

You've accused me of having a romanticised image, despite my pointing out where such an image is incorrect and unrealistic (using the incorrect term "jaded"... which actually refers to being cynical, not looking for positive... quite the opposite). You've refused to listen to actual information from those who are closest to the subject, instead saying you prefer to listen to your Japanese sensei (who have nothing to do with Musashi, his art, his writings, his history, or anything) because they're Japanese, and therefore "understand not only the martial but the cultural aspects that most non-Japanese have a hard time learning"... which is thoroughly irrelevant unless they're students of Musashi and his history... which is not the case you've put forth. You might as well say that you listen to Spanish people only when it comes to the life of Pablo Picasso, whether they have any knowledge of him or not. The fact that they're Japanese doesn't really mean anything... especially as we're talking a cultural separation even within Japanese ideals (the culture of Musashi's time was very different to the culture of modern Japan).

You've refused to even consider the idea that your information is not correct, refused to acknowledge that your take is based purely on your (modern, Western) values, and have no actual connection to the history of Musashi whatsoever, continued to make the same comments, even after the way they were being received was explained to you, and you're ending saying "no hard feelings?" Really? Who do you think should be having hard feelings, Brian?

Seriously, if you come back to this thread, read it. Read it before you post on it again.


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## Tgace (Oct 5, 2013)

Last word Armageddon!

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 5, 2013)

So the dance continues. (really)  You have an approach to Musashi that is based on his legend.  It is like you are cherry picking accepting what you like or do not like.  Are you *this heavily invested* in his legend.  One would think you have a personal stake in defending the legend of Musashi.   I frankly don't see Musashi like you do. A lot of people do not see Musashi like you do.  If Musashi is your hero fine.  Hero worship is okay.  Enjoy it just do not expect everyone else to believe exactly the way you do Chris.

Chris you continue to believe the good stuff about Musashi without taking into consideration the bad. (why are we not talking about his hygiene or lack of appointment as a sword instructor during his life)


This discussion is pointless.  We are at an impasse.  Feel free to have your opinion on the legend of Musashi.  I know you want to be right here but frankly we are arguing over a legendary figure with what most of what we know is probably fantasy.  What a waste of time!  Let's be men and agree to disagree here!  


Once again good luck in your training!


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 5, 2013)

It is an interesting show, some based on the legend some based on the reality


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## Chris Parker (Oct 6, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> So the dance continues. (really)


 
It continues because you still refuse to actually read what I've written, Brian. This entire post is evidence of that.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> You have an approach to Musashi that is based on his legend.


 
No, for the twelfth time Brian, I don't. I have an understanding of Musashi based on the history left. You have never seen me post anything about believing in any legend... in fact, I've posted exactly the opposite.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> It is like you are cherry picking accepting what you like or do not like.


 
Seriously? No, Brian, you're ignoring what I'm saying in favour of your beliefs of what you want me to be thinking. You have no idea what my take on Musashi is, as you have yet to open your eyes, ears, and mind enough to listen.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Are you *this heavily invested* in his legend.


 
Not in the slightest Brian. I was, however, curious as to where your negative (and ill-informed) opinion was from... but since then, I've been frustrated by your lack of ability to actually hear anything that you've been told.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> One would think you have a personal stake in defending the legend of Musashi.



Please. One would think that you're so heavily invested in the opinions of your teachers who are completely removed from the subject that you're incapable of hearing any that they might not have given you the most correct information...





Brian R. VanCise said:


> I frankly don't see Musashi like you do. A lot of people do not see Musashi like you do.


 
You have no idea how I see Musashi, Brian. You've completely failed to listen to anything I've said, or hear what you've been told, instead constantly telling me the way I view him... and never getting it right.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> If Musashi is your hero fine.  Hero worship is okay.  Enjoy it just do not expect everyone else to believe exactly the way you do Chris.



For crying out loud, Brian, read the damn thread! Find one case, just one, of my saying that the legend is accurate, that all the stories are true, that Musashi is my hero, anything that backs up these claims you're making!



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Chris you continue to believe the good stuff about Musashi without taking into consideration the bad. (why are we not talking about his hygiene or lack of appointment as a sword instructor during his life)



 Brian, I've brought much of that up in many conversations over the years myself, you are basing this idea that I'm only looking at "the good" on absolutely nothing.

Read what I've written. There is nothing I've said that supports your opinion.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> This discussion is pointless.  We are at an impasse.  Feel free to have your opinion on the legend of Musashi.  I know you want to be right here but frankly we are arguing over a legendary figure with what most of what we know is probably fantasy.  What a waste of time!  Let's be men and agree to disagree here!



"Agree to disagree"?!?! Agree that your constant misrepresentation of my opinions is fine? No damn way, Brian. Read the thread. And it's nothing to do with me needing to be right, it's that there's no support for your ideas (either your value judgement on Musashi, nor for your take on my views), which is why I have been questioning where your ideas come from, and why you believe them... you haven't answered beyond "some Japanese teachers"... which include no-one connected to Musashi's lineage or history, and include someone who doesn't even have anything to do with martial arts at all!



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Once again good luck in your training!



Right.



Xue Sheng said:


> It is an interesting show, some based on the legend some based on the reality



Uh... no, Xue. That's honestly just a horrendously "researched" piece, filled basically from top to bottom with errors, misrepresentation, and some downright inappropriate behaviour. The way Musashi is portrayed there is in no way accurate... it might as well have been a manga comic. It should be ignored entirely.

In fact, here's a good review of the show... and Brian, this is far more the understanding of Musashi I agree with: http://www.theshogunshouse.com/2010/03/modern-sammyrai-wet-dream-history.html


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## Tgace (Oct 6, 2013)

You have got to be kidding me....this isn't going to end unless someone admits to being wrong?

There's some pathology going on round here.....

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 6, 2013)

Chris Parker said:


> Uh... no, Xue. That's honestly just a horrendously "researched" piece, filled basically from top to bottom with errors, misrepresentation, and some downright inappropriate behaviour. The way Musashi is portrayed there is in no way accurate... it might as well have been a manga comic. It should be ignored entirely.
> 
> In fact, here's a good review of the show... and Brian, this is far more the understanding of Musashi I agree with: http://www.theshogunshouse.com/2010/03/modern-sammyrai-wet-dream-history.html



Thanks for the critique Chris but as I said before, I don't much care, it was entertaining and as I said some based on legend and some based on reality

As for facts, this is about as close as I think anyone can really get

Miyamoto Musashi

SOURCES 
Cleary, Thomas The Japanese Art of War Shambala 1991 
Miyamoto Musashi (trans. Thomas Cleary) The Book of Five Rings Shambala 1994 
Turnbull, Stephen The Lone Samurai and the Martial Arts Arms and Armour 1990 
Yoshikawa Eiji Musashi Kodansha 1981 


There is a book I am considering picking up on the topic
The Real Musashi: The Bushudenraiki (Origins of a Legend)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 6, 2013)

Tgace said:


> You have got to be kidding me....this isn't going to end unless someone admits to being wrong?
> 
> There's some pathology going on round here.....
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2




It does seem that way TGace!  




I have like five minutes before I have to go teach to respond.

Chris,

You and I are not going to agree. 

I don't have time to read every post your write and break it down line for line.  

I have said my piece and frankly I am happy with my position.  I am sorry that you are not.

We are not going to agree let's put on our big boy pants and move on.  Such is life!  

I still wish you the best!  No hard feelings on my part.  We can agree to disagree and that is okay.


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## Hyoho (Oct 6, 2013)

ark400 said:


> mushashi wrote in his classic "a book of five rings" that you must perceive the intention of your opponent and before he makes a move, you make a move.
> 
> he advised the following way to perceive intention of opponent:
> 
> ...



Before he makes a move,  you make a move? Well its a little more subtle than that. Do the practice, read the book and will be revealed. The other two quotes have nothing to do with it and describe methods used in waza.


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## Hyoho (Oct 6, 2013)

Legend really has little to do with it. There are some people reading here that are members of what is a Musashi's living tradition. One that is taught without adaptation.

 The availability of water for washing in the Kumamoto mountains in the late 1600s has little to do with it either. Here today in the Philippine mountains in 2013 there are few that were able to take a shower either! 
But living in the mountains away from civilization does give one a chance to reflect upon ones decisions in life. Still didn't take that shower but wow, now I have internet.

The Clearly book is not to bad. There is but one translation of Gorin no Sho in English that I have by a practitioner that is yet to be published.

One saying comes to mind. "The best waza were taught by those that were still alive to teach it".


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## Chris Parker (Oct 9, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I have like five minutes before I have to go teach to respond.
> *
> Chris,
> 
> ...



You don't have time to read, yet you're still responding?

Brian. Read what I've written. Your beliefs about my position are incorrect from the outset, and you have consistently misrepresented my position, and ignored my comments. If you can't be bothered to read what I've said, you can't argue against it, as you have no idea what you're arguing against.

If you answer, make sure you have time to read first.


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## Tgace (Oct 9, 2013)

View attachment $dedication-wrong-leave-internet-demotivational-poster-1272856078.jpg


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 9, 2013)

I'm done here Chris.  This is simply not worth my time.


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## Sanke (Oct 10, 2013)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I'm done here Chris. This is simply not worth my time.


With all due respect Brian, I don't think you've given this thread any time at all. You've constantly disregarded Chris's points, even insisting on unrelated points (such as insisting on Chris believing all the legends, despite him clearly stating otherwise), and then not even addressing the issues raised by just saying you can 'agree to disagree'. 
If you're going to have a discussion, at least address the points raised by others, rather than avoiding them. 


For example, I'm still wondering about your logic behind Musashi not being 'saintly' when he is referred to as kensei. The uses of the term saint are completely unrelated, so how do you figure that Musashi would be considered un-saintly?


I think it's worth at least reading what's being said before deciding to walk away from a discussion.


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## Tgace (Oct 10, 2013)

Sanke said:


> With all due respect Brian, I don't think you've given this thread any time at all. You've constantly disregarded Chris's points, even insisting on unrelated points (such as insisting on Chris believing all the legends, despite him clearly stating otherwise), and then not even addressing the issues raised by just saying you can 'agree to disagree'.
> If you're going to have a discussion, at least address the points raised by others, rather than avoiding them.
> 
> 
> ...



Another ninja from down under beating the dead horse......

:deadhorse

Look. If I wanted to say I thought Musashi was taught by aliens from alpha centauri and wasn't going to read what you had to say...so what??

Some of ya'll are starting to look a bit mental in your drive to always be right.....and this is coming from ME. 

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Sanke (Oct 10, 2013)

Thing is, it's not really about being seen as right, it's more that everything that's been brought up has been ignored. 
As far as Musashi not being all legend would have him be, yeah, he really wasn't. 
It's statements that are blatantly incorrect that are the issue, such as him only being known for his swordsmanship, when he was far better known as an artist. That's not an opinion, that's just history.
And when it's put out there, it's been ignored or brushed off as a side note, when it's actually quite relevant to the discussion.  

If you don't care to discuss anymore, that's fine, but as long as there are these glaring issues in what people are saying, someone's going to point them out.


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## Tgace (Oct 10, 2013)

Sanke said:


> If you don't care to discuss anymore, that's fine, but as long as there are these glaring issues in what people are saying, someone's going to point them out.



What..they haven't been pointed out enough?? We all get it. You and Chris (obviously associated) disagree with Brian. Got it. 

This incessant demand to "READ THE THREAD!" is more than "pointing out issues"....this is some bizzare last wordsmanship game combined with an "ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG!" demand. 

Its weird ...even for the interwebs.

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## Tgace (Oct 10, 2013)

Tgace said:


> There's plenty in TBFR on strategy, martial philosophy and other "non sword" topics to learn from.
> 
> The "fire book" is probably the one that is mostly sword specific....
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2



I take this back. I was erroneous in my books....its actually the water book that has very sword specific passages that someone not practicing Musashi's art would probably misunderstand. Stuff like:



> The Flowing Water Cut
> 
> The "Flowing Water Cut" is used when you are struggling blade to blade with the enemy. When he breaks and quickly withdraws trying to spring with his long sword, expand your body and spirit and cut him as slowly as possible with your long sword, following your body like stagnant water. You can cut with certainty if you learn this. You must discern the enemy's grade.



Pretty much all the rest of the book is as accessible to the "strategist" reader as Sun Tzu's work. Or the compilation of work ascribed to the name Sun Tzu....whatever.

http://www.cyberpathway.com/musashi/

The fire book contains passages such as:



> Everything can collapse. Houses, bodies, and enemies collapse when their rhythm becomes deranged.
> 
> In large-scale strategy, when the enemy starts to collapse, you must pursue him without letting the chance go. If you fail to take advantage of your enemies' collapse, they may recover.
> 
> In single combat, the enemy sometimes loses timing and collapses. If you let this opportunity pass, he may recover and not be so negligent thereafter. Fixyour eye on the enemy's collapse, and chase him, attacking so that you do not let him recover. You must do this. The chasing attack is with a strong spirit. You must utterly cut the enemy down so that he does not recover his position. You must understand how to utterly cut down the enemy.



Ive read similar passages in The Art of War, Clausewitz, The USMC Maneuver Warfare Manual, etc. There's nothing style specific to that passage (and most others outside the water book) that someone knowledgeable in military science writing wouldn't understand full well.

The ground book passage regarding the analogy of the Carpenter to the Strategist is a primer on leadership and employment of personnel.

To imply that ONLY someone schooled in Musashi's sword art could possibly understand or appreciate the content if TBFR is either a lack of understanding what they are reading or arrogance on the part of someone practicing that art (only I have the understanding ********). 

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## Sanke (Oct 10, 2013)

Tgace said:


> What..they haven't been pointed out enough?? We all get it. You and Chris (obviously associated) disagree with Brian. Got it.
> 
> This incessant demand to "READ THE THREAD!" is more than "pointing out issues"....this is some bizzare last wordsmanship game combined with an "ADMIT YOU ARE WRONG!" demand.
> 
> ...



Yeah, they've been pointed out, and then ignored. And I wouldn't even call it a disagreement, I don't think Brain's actually addressed any of Chris's actual points or questions, just things he  seems to be pulling out of nowhere. And yeah, Chris is my instructor and fellow student in other classes. I'd say it was pretty obvious, it is in my profile after all...

So yeah, it'd be good if Brain actually read the thread. Because if his replies are anything to go by, he really hasn't.

And please, for the interwebs, this is mild at best.


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## Tgace (Oct 10, 2013)

Sanke said:


> Yeah, they've been pointed out, and then ignored. And I wouldn't even call it a disagreement, I don't think Brain's actually addressed any of Chris's actual points or questions, just things he  seems to be pulling out of nowhere. And yeah, Chris is my instructor and fellow student in other classes. I'd say it was pretty obvious, it is in my profile after all...
> 
> So yeah, it'd be good if Brain actually read the thread. Because if his replies are anything to go by, he really hasn't.
> 
> And please, for the interwebs, this is mild at best.



I say again....

So ****ing what? Are you guys so special that you cant be ignored?

Who is Brian that his opinion is such a big offense? Who are Chris and you to demand anything? And why the incessant hijacking of the thread into a READ MY POSTS bitchfest?

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## Hyoho (Oct 10, 2013)

Lol well ones things for sure. I see few Musashi ideals in this thread.


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## jks9199 (Oct 10, 2013)

Wow...

Things seem to be getting a little hot around here.  Maybe it's time to let things settle out a bit?  If I it were practical, I'd send a round on the house...


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## Tgace (Oct 10, 2013)

ark400 said:


> mushashi wrote in his classic "a book of five rings" that you must perceive the intention of your opponent and before he makes a move, you make a move.
> 
> he advised the following way to perceive intention of opponent:
> 
> ...



If you read most of the fire book...

http://www.cyberpathway.com/musashi/fire.htm

Is pretty obvious that much of Musashi's strategic thought was offensive in nature. He speaks often of "chasing the enemy around" and "forestalling by attacking". Even his mentions of "Treading down" the enemy and "soaking in" imply an offensive mindset. 

("Soaking in" is a similar strategy to staying in infighting range against a power boxer. Or a military unit staying intermingled with an enemy to prevent their ability to maneuver or to bring area weapons to bear.)

His strategy is very heavy in imposing his will against an opponent vs "rope a dope"/wear him down defensive actions. Find the opportunity and attack!

This is not to imply that he recommend being the first to attack. He said:



> This does not mean that you always attack first; but if the enemy attacks first you can lead him around. In strategy, you have effectively won when you forestall the enemy, so you must train well to attain this.



His mindset here is not "defensive" per se... even when receiving an attack his strategy is to lead the opponent to his defeat...not going "defensive". 

Many sources state that Musashi was large, strong and aggressive in personality so I find it unsurprising that his philosophy would favor an offensive mindset.

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## Tames D (Oct 10, 2013)

Sanke said:


> Yeah, they've been pointed out, and then ignored. And I wouldn't even call it a disagreement, I don't think Brain's actually addressed any of Chris's actual points or questions, just things he  seems to be pulling out of nowhere. And yeah, Chris is my instructor and fellow student in other classes. I'd say it was pretty obvious, it is in my profile after all...
> 
> So yeah, it'd be good if Brain actually read the thread. Because if his replies are anything to go by, he really hasn't.
> 
> ...



I'm convinced that anything Brian "could of would of" said would still be wrong in yours and Chris's eyes. Everyone else is always wrong or mis-informed. It's getting old. Must be an Austrailian thing.


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## Hyoho (Oct 11, 2013)

Musashi was around 188 cms. If anyone reads 'attack' into gorin no sho? You read it wrong. There is no attack in his waza.  It's the epitome of defense using "sen". (That's not in the book). You practice,  you read.  You read,  you practice. That is..... members of the ryu.


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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> Musashi was around 188 cms. If anyone reads 'attack' into gorin no sho? You read it wrong. There is no attack in his waza.  It's the epitome of defense using "sen". (That's not in the book). You practice,  you read.  You read,  you practice. That is..... members of the ryu.



I said aggressive and offensive...and stipulated that he did not mean to always attack. There is a difference.

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## Tgace (Oct 11, 2013)

Hyoho said:


> Musashi was around 188 cms. If anyone reads 'attack' into gorin no sho? You read it wrong. There is no attack in his waza.  It's the epitome of defense using "sen". (That's not in the book). You practice,  you read.  You read,  you practice. That is..... members of the ryu.



Perhaps not the most proven source but it mirrors what I have read on better sourced works I cannot reference at the moment:

http://www.bookoffiverings.com/MiyamotoMusashi.htm



> When Musashi was seven, his father, Munisai, either died or abandoned the child. As his mother had died, Ben No Suke, as Musashi was known during his childhood, was left in the care of an uncle on his mother's side, a priest. So we find Musashi an orphan during Hideyoshi's campaigns of unification, son of a samurai in a violent unhappy land. He was a boisterous youth, strong-willed and physically large for his age. Whether he was urged to pursue Kendo by his uncle, or whether his aggressive nature led him to it, we do not know, but it is recorded that he slew a man in single combat when he was just thirteen. The opponent was Arima Kigei, a samurai of the Shinto Ryu school of military arts, skilled with sword and spear. The boy threw the man to the ground, and beat him about the head with a stick when he tried to rise. Kihei died vomiting blood



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## Hyoho (Oct 11, 2013)

But you only did a cut and paste from the beginning of the article.  This guy dumbfoundedly likens Musashi's waza to Kendo. Musashi would turn in his grave.


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