# Kukkiwon Promotion Rules changes



## andyjeffries

As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course.  And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).

There are three different classes of test examiners (this is as I understand it, it may not be 100% correct):

3rd Class Examiner - Can promote up to 3rd Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) or up to 2nd Dan as part of a dojang-panel, must have a minimum of 4th Dan Kukkiwon
2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate
1st Class Examiner- Can promote up to 7th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) and recommend for 8th Dan promotion to Kukkiwon, must have a minimum of 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 1st Class Master Instructor certificate
The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified.  However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.

Thoughts on this new policy?


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## TrueJim

Based on what I've seen at our local schools, schools that hand out Kukkiwon dan certificates generally already have pretty good standards. When I go to local tournaments, the black belts there almost invariably look good: nice snap, coordination, power, concentration, balance, and technique. So from my point-of-view, this seems like an onerous requirement that likely won't do much to fix any problems; poor schools will still find ways to be poor schools. But maybe there are swaths of schools out there promoting people willy-nilly....I don't know. If so, maybe I'm wrong and this will indeed force a whole lot of schools to improve the way they teach and promote. Somebody somewhere must have felt that there was a problem that needed to be solved? I don't see the problem around here though.


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## Earl Weiss

andyjeffries said:


> As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course.  And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).



Not a KKW person but  the logistics will be important.
1. Who will administer the test examiner courses, where and how often?
2. Cost of Courses. 
3. What are the chances of a "Work Around" where 2-3 Buddies all sign off on test as part of a panel whether present or not? 

I am sure plenty will be PO'd unless some are grandfathered in.


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## TrueJim

The head of our school is Kukkiwon 7th dan and I believe he mentioned in passing that he'd have to go to Korea to take the course. I got the impression that nobody is being grandfathered in, and there'd be no work-arounds since apparently you actually have to take the course at Kukkiwon?


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## andyjeffries

Earl Weiss said:


> Not a KKW person but  the logistics will be important.



Your input is always welcome Master Weiss!



Earl Weiss said:


> 1. Who will administer the test examiner courses, where and how often?



The courses are to be taught by Kukkiwon instructors, in each region.  Frequency unknown, but there is only one planned for Europe between this morning when it was announced to the masters by email and in March when they start to come live.



Earl Weiss said:


> 2. Cost of Courses.



The cost of the course is relatively cheap - US$200.  However, when you add in the cost of airfare and accommodation it can quickly add up.



Earl Weiss said:


> 3. What are the chances of a "Work Around" where 2-3 Buddies all sign off on test as part of a panel whether present or not?



I guess this is possible and plausible.  Whether it will happen or not is a different issue.



Earl Weiss said:


> I am sure plenty will be PO'd unless some are grandfathered in.



As TrueJim said, as far as I understand it, none will be.  For example, they recently (a month ago ish) held an "invitational promotion test examiner course" as effectively a test run with invited masters - attending that course were various 9th Dans including GM Park Soo Nam (ex-President of the German Taekwondo association) and GM Shin Tong Wan (World Poomsae Champion from Great Britain).  They both had to to go on the floor and test the same as everyone else present.[/QUOTE]


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## andyjeffries

TrueJim said:


> The head of our school is Kukkiwon 7th dan and I believe he mentioned in passing that he'd have to go to Korea to take the course. I got the impression that nobody is being grandfathered in, and there'd be no work-arounds since apparently you actually have to take the course at Kukkiwon?



At Kukkiwon or under the watchful eye of Kukkiwon instructors/examiners at various locations around the world


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## Dirty Dog

So...
You train for 30 years and attain a high Dan rank, but somehow in all those years you haven't learned the standards? 
If that's actually the case, how is a weekend seminar going to change anything?

Maybe I'm cynical (ok, I am, there's no real doubt about it) but this doesn't seem to me like it's going to really do anything useful.


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## kmorrisonnyc

andyjeffries said:


> As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course.  And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).



Master Jeffries, can you clarify what you mean by "invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch"?

Does that mean, for example, in the UK that only people invited by the BTCB or in the US only people invited by USAT could participate in grading panels? Or am I completely misunderstanding? (Apologies if I've referenced the wrong bodies; I'm not intimately familiar with the exact governing bodies)


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## kmorrisonnyc

kmorrisonnyc said:


> Master Jeffries, can you clarify what you mean by "invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch"?
> 
> Does that mean, for example, in the UK that only people invited by the BTCB or in the US only people invited by USAT could participate in grading panels? Or am I completely misunderstanding? (Apologies if I've referenced the wrong bodies; I'm not intimately familiar with the exact governing bodies)



Actually, I didn't see your attachment where it is defined:

"1) Kukkiwon Branch - The Kukkiwon plan to set up one branch for each nation. The Kukkiwon can directly establish the overseas corporation or approve a MNA or local subsidiary as the Kukkiwon branch."

Much like Dirty Dog I'm a little cynical, but would appear this just increases the likelihood of politics at a local level?


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## chrispillertkd

andyjeffries said:


> 2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate




Out of curiosity, is this a typo? It looks as if you can theoretically promote someone to the same rank you hold yourself.
Pax,

Chris


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## Metal

I actually wanted to start a separate thread for this since this is what Manny's "Father of Mexican TKD..." is about.

Besides Park Soo Nam there were a few other Germans at the Kukkiwon course, including former DTU (German Taekwondo Union) president Heinz Gruber who also took his 8th Dan test at Kukkiwon this year.

My thoughts on this:

I knew this was coming sooner or later and it's also the way it's handled in Korea. Of course the independent Kukkiwon instructors are in rage since Dan gradings became an important income (for some more - for others less) over the years. Yet the way some of those instructors handled Kukkiwon gradings in the past may also be a reason for the new system. Selling Dan certificates, tests that don't cover the basics (be it no sparring, no Poomsae, no breaking - it has all been done) and also simply cashing in on the Kukkiwon tests, by charging ridiculous amounts for the tests, may have all been reasons that basically forced the Kukkiwon to change the system.


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## Dirty Dog

My first post was made without reading the PDF. I've now read the PDF.
A large part of the motivation for this is (as is pretty clearly stated in the PDF) to generate cash. 
To me, this looks more like a way to generate cash than anything else.
I do not buy the idea that this will somehow change the standards by which people are promoted.


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## Tony Dismukes

You know, there are times I am very grateful to be practicing an art where rank promotions are not part of the instructor's revenue stream.


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## Dirty Dog

Tony Dismukes said:


> You know, there are times I am very grateful to be practicing an art where rank promotions are not part of the instructor's revenue stream.



Frankly, this doesn't seem to be about the instructors revenue stream. It seems to be about the Kukkiwons revenue stream.


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## TrueJim

Reading Dirty Dog's comment, my first thought was...in the end, do you really make more money by setting up national branches of the Kukkiwon? Each of those branches will now want to be fed as well, and each branch is going to want to keep as much money for itself as it can. I'm not saying they'll do that out of greed, but it's the nature of organizations that they always feel they should "do more" and yet never have enough resources.

Or to put it in corporate terms, you don't cut-costs or increase-revenues by setting-up additional levels in the hierarchy!

It seems to me that what you'll have in the future is umpteen national branches pushing-back against the parent organization to promote policies that allow the national branches to keep as much money as they can, and umpteen national branches creating duplicative shadow organizations, pursuing completely different agendas, promoting different taekwondo policies, etc.

So now I'm wondering if this is a money thing at all...maybe it's a scaling thing? The only time you set up additional levels in a hierarchy is when you feel like you can't manage the size of what you already have, but you still have the ambition for a lot of growth. Maybe this is about accelerating the growth of Kukkiwon-style taekwondo, but doing so in an annoyingly cautious way so as to not allow the quality to decrease?


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## Manny

Well no problem to me, I don't have kukiwon certification and never will. It's silly how politcs rules the MA.

El Manny


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## WaterGal

Mixed feelings about this.  

I don't have a problem with requiring a panel of masters to judge a dan test.  That's how they do it in Kendo - they have community promotions at like a rec center with a bunch of masters from different schools judging - and it works pretty well for them.  That can be a good way to maintain standards and community and all that.  

But I am concerned about the logistics of how this is implemented, and most especially about this examiner's course.  If every instructor has to fly to another country and stay in a hotel in order to take this class..... most won't, because they can't afford it. Last time I checked, round trip tickets to Seoul alone were over $2,000, nevermind hotel, food, the cost of the class, etc.  If they can send someone to every city around the world where TKD is practiced to give the course, or if they can do it as an online course, then fine.  Otherwise, I think this is going to lead to a lot of people giving up on Kukkiwon promotions and a massive decline in the number of certs they're giving.

I'm also concerned about the lack of communication from Kukkiwon about this. This post on here was the first I've heard about this.  We haven't received anything from Kukkiwon about it, and I can't find any info about it on their website or the USAT site.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Mixed feelings about this.
> 
> I don't have a problem with requiring a panel of masters to judge a dan test.  That's how they do it in Kendo - they have community promotions at like a rec center with a bunch of masters from different schools judging - and it works pretty well for them.  That can be a good way to maintain standards and community and all that.



If you happen to have that large a community within a reasonable distance, sure.
For Dan promotions, we will invite a couple of the Moo Duk Kwan GM down, but they're only about 90 minutes away by car.
If we had to fly them in from another state and have a guarantee of XXX present for the promotion... the cost would certainly go up, for one thing.



WaterGal said:


> But I am concerned about the logistics of how this is implemented, and most especially about this examiner's course.  If every instructor has to fly to another country and stay in a hotel in order to take this class..... most won't, because they can't afford it. Last time I checked, round trip tickets to Seoul alone were over $2,000, nevermind hotel, food, the cost of the class, etc.  If they can send someone to every city around the world where TKD is practiced to give the course, or if they can do it as an online course, then fine.  Otherwise, I think this is going to lead to a lot of people giving up on Kukkiwon promotions and a massive decline in the number of certs they're giving.



This is what I expect. Our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. We've always offered the KKW certification as an option (though most of our students opt for the MDK certification). I wonder if this might stop being an option.


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## Archtkd

andyjeffries said:


> As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course.  And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).


Andy: I doubt this will ever fly in the the U.S, which holds the 2nd  largest number of Kukki taekwondo practitioners, masters and grandmaster in the world, behind Korea. Kukki style folks here -- as many, many, are already doing -- will stop recommending their dojang members for Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon will suffer serious political, economic and international relations consequences. Kukkiwon taekwondoin here have enjoyed a level of freedom they will never be willing to give up. A group called the USTC six years ago tried to negotiate some exclusive pooom/dan recommendation status with the Kukkiwon and fell flat on its face. Some members of that group in Chicago are now trying to seize on this new Kukkiwon initiative and they too will never be able to hold sway over other Kukkiwon grandmastes and masters in the U.S.


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## Archtkd

andyjeffries said:


> The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified.  However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.
> Thoughts on this new policy?


Andy: The bigger questions here is the issue of standards. Most of us already know that the place with one of the biggest problems of standards today is Korea. If the Kukkiwon cannot implement good taekwondo standards in Korea, how can it do the same to the larger world? While trying to avoid making a general, sweeping statement I tend to think geup and dan rank testing; and indeed Kukki taekwondo standards, at a large number of dojang in the U.S, Canada and probably Mexico are far much better than those of many dojangs in Korea.


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## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> If you happen to have that large a community within a reasonable distance, sure.
> For Dan promotions, we will invite a couple of the Moo Duk Kwan GM down, but they're only about 90 minutes away by car.
> If we had to fly them in from another state and have a guarantee of XXX present for the promotion... the cost would certainly go up, for one thing.



That's true.  There are enough KKW schools around here that getting enough masters together to make a panel wouldn't be a problem, assuming the examiner's class isn't a huge problem, but in an area with very few schools.... well, Kendo has this same problem, to go back to my earlier comparison - my state has one Kendo promotion every year, an hour drive away.  That's not a good option for a neighborhood commercial TKD school.

What I'm hoping for is that the lowest level examiner course will be available as an online class, and the panels of judges for 1-3 dan/poom can basically organize themselves with some minimal oversight from KKW/USAT.  I feel like that should be enough to make sure that everyone's on the same page, nobody's doing anything outright fraudulent, etc, without being too onerous on schools.  If they want to have national tests for 4th dan and up, I think that's pretty reasonable.  I mean, I think the huge concern is when you have masters (like some of those videos on another thread) who were promoted over and over and still don't know what they're doing and are teaching the wrong things to their students.


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## andyjeffries

chrispillertkd said:


> Out of curiosity, is this a typo? It looks as if you can theoretically promote someone to the same rank you hold yourself.



It would be a first in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but that's what I heard.  Partially because it's a panel of 5 people of that grade all saying "yes, you are on our level".  Remember for 3rd Dan+ they have to be performed by a panel of 5 people from these rules, so it's a group decision to say "yes, you are our equal".


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## andyjeffries

kmorrisonnyc said:


> Actually, I didn't see your attachment where it is defined:
> 
> "1) Kukkiwon Branch - The Kukkiwon plan to set up one branch for each nation. The Kukkiwon can directly establish the overseas corporation or approve a MNA or local subsidiary as the Kukkiwon branch."
> 
> Much like Dirty Dog I'm a little cynical, but would appear this just increases the likelihood of politics at a local level?



It won't always be the MNA though and there may be flexibility in having more than one branch for each country, when it all finished up...


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## andyjeffries

Archtkd said:


> Andy: The bigger questions here is the issue of standards. Most of us already know that the place with one of the biggest problems of standards today is Korea. If the Kukkiwon cannot implement good taekwondo standards in Korea, how can it do the same to the larger world? While trying to avoid making a general, sweeping statement I tend to think geup and dan rank testing; and indeed Kukki taekwondo standards, at a large number of dojang in the U.S, Canada and probably Mexico are far much better than those of many dojangs in Korea.



I think there is a different in understanding though.  I would say a lot of 1st poom (let's face it, in Korea very few grade directly to 1st dan) in Korea are shocking in standards.  However, that's because they see 1st poom as a beginner rank, not as the "almighty god-black-belt".  If you look at most 4th Dan+ in Korea (which only takes 7 years to reach) they are generally really good.

So I think that's the system they're aiming for here - low dan they don't care about, but master rank and near-master should be tested by a panel of qualified examiners, not just masters.


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## andyjeffries

Archtkd said:


> Andy: I doubt this will ever fly in the the U.S, which holds the 2nd  largest number of Kukki taekwondo practitioners, masters and grandmaster in the world, behind Korea. Kukki style folks here -- as many, many, are already doing -- will stop recommending their dojang members for Kukkiwon certification and the Kukkiwon will suffer serious political, economic and international relations consequences. Kukkiwon taekwondoin here have enjoyed a level of freedom they will never be willing to give up. A group called the USTC six years ago tried to negotiate some exclusive pooom/dan recommendation status with the Kukkiwon and fell flat on its face. Some members of that group in Chicago are now trying to seize on this new Kukkiwon initiative and they too will never be able to hold sway over other Kukkiwon grandmastes and masters in the U.S.



I know what you're saying, and the Kukkiwon is very open about how much of its revenue comes from USA. There are enough masters/grandmasters in the US that getting a panel together for promotions will be easy enough.  I don't know if this is a Europe-focused initiative at first, or if it's truly going global on step one; but either way I think it's clear that it's coming.


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## andyjeffries

WaterGal said:


> or if they can do it as an online course, then fine.  Otherwise, I think this is going to lead to a lot of people giving up on Kukkiwon promotions and a massive decline in the number of certs they're giving.



I agree with you.  Online courses/promotions (as there is a physical and written test at the end of the course) is a whole-nother topic, but I do think that would be much easier.

I do think there's going to be a massive decline in the number of certs, which is a shame and will be a de-unification influence in Taekwondo.  Maybe the Kukkiwon will be happy about that though - making it more of a gold-standard.



WaterGal said:


> I'm also concerned about the lack of communication from Kukkiwon about this. This post on here was the first I've heard about this.  We haven't received anything from Kukkiwon about it, and I can't find any info about it on their website or the USAT site.



I agree, I'd seen an early version of this document in one of my official roles with an organisation, but the first I heard of it officially was yesterday morning "here's a new policy, you have 9 months before we rip away your privileges of rank and there's a course to let you keep a little bit of them - here's the one date for that course before the rules come in, and it's in a different country".

They need to work on this more...


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> It would be a first in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but that's what I heard.  Partially because it's a panel of 5 people of that grade all saying "yes, you are on our level".  Remember for 3rd Dan+ they have to be performed by a panel of 5 people from these rules, so it's a group decision to say "yes, you are our equal".



Not really a first...
Every 9th Dan promotion is a panel promoting to their own level, and every 10th Dan was a panel promoting ABOVE their own level.


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## IcemanSK

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really a first...
> Every 9th Dan promotion is a panel promoting to their own level, and every 10th Dan was a panel promoting ABOVE their own level.



10th Dan promotions are posthumous in Kukki-TKD. It would hard to have a panel of one's peers evalute for 10th Dan in that case.


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## Dirty Dog

IcemanSK said:


> 10th Dan promotions are posthumous in Kukki-TKD. It would hard to have a panel of one's peers evalute for 10th Dan in that case.



Usually. Not always.
PARK Hae man and CHONG Soo Hung were both awarded 10th Dan while still alive, as I recall. I think there have been others, but these are off the top of my head. 
I keep trivia there, since there's no hair...


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## IcemanSK

andyjeffries said:


> I know what you're saying, and the Kukkiwon is very open about how much of its revenue comes from USA. There are enough masters/grandmasters in the US that getting a panel together for promotions will be easy enough.  I don't know if this is a Europe-focused initiative at first, or if it's truly going global on step one; but either way I think it's clear that it's coming.



When Kukkiwon did the Instructors Course in the US in 2009 (in two venues across the country) it was enjoyable because it was a unique thing for many of us who don't have easy abilty to go to Korea. Having this course be mandatory to test one's own students is a whole other issue. Those that have these new qualifications are likely to charge ridiculous fees for Kukkiwon because they can now get it. It won't make Kukkiwon a premium. It will devalue them immensely. This will not go over well in the US. Kukkiwon is going to see a huge negative shift.


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## IcemanSK

Dirty Dog said:


> Usually. Not always.
> PARK Hae man and CHONG Soo Hung were both awarded 10th Dan while still alive, as I recall. I think there have been others, but these are off the top of my head.
> I keep trivia there, since there's no hair...



Are you sure that is the case for GM PARK? I've spoken to several  high-ranking Chung Do Kwan folks who are his direct students and he's always been referred to as 9th Dan. Can you point me to a source for that?


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## WaterGal

andyjeffries said:


> I agree with you.  Online courses/promotions (as there is a physical and written test at the end of the course) is a whole-nother topic, but I do think that would be much easier.



Oh, I didn't mean online TKD classes.  I meant online classes in how to be an examiner, at least for the first level of examiner.  Like how USAT has an online class to be an associate coach, and then you have to do a live class for the higher levels.  I think that same approach could work for examiners, too.  



> I do think there's going to be a massive decline in the number of certs, which is a shame and will be a de-unification influence in Taekwondo.  Maybe the Kukkiwon will be happy about that though - making it more of a gold-standard.



I'm sure they'll be happy to weed out the really bad schools whose students can't hack it. But they also need revenue to stay afloat.  If large numbers of schools are walking away not because their students can't pass the test, but rather because the schools can't _give _the test - I think they'll revisit this.



> I agree, I'd seen an early version of this document in one of my official roles with an organisation, but the first I heard of it officially was yesterday morning "here's a new policy, you have 9 months before we rip away your privileges of rank and there's a course to let you keep a little bit of them - here's the one date for that course before the rules come in, and it's in a different country".
> 
> They need to work on this more...



Yeah, this should be something rolled out over the next couple years, I think.


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## Dirty Dog

IcemanSK said:


> Are you sure that is the case for GM PARK? I've spoken to several  high-ranking Chung Do Kwan folks who are his direct students and he's always been referred to as 9th Dan. Can you point me to a source for that?



No, I'm not entirely sure. Remember me saying it's off the top of my head? 
I also seem to recall KIM Un Yong as being given a 10th Dan, and I think he's still alive too.
It's not something that's easy to find on the KKW site, so I'm strictly operating from my admittedly imperfect memory.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> Not really a first...
> Every 9th Dan promotion is a panel promoting to their own level, and every 10th Dan was a panel promoting ABOVE their own level.



I meant at 6th Dan level specifically.  Obv the top rank is by peers.


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> No, I'm not entirely sure. Remember me saying it's off the top of my head?
> I also seem to recall KIM Un Yong as being given a 10th Dan, and I think he's still alive too.
> It's not something that's easy to find on the KKW site, so I'm strictly operating from my admittedly imperfect memory.



Kim Un Yong is an honourary 10th Dan, as is Juan Antonio Samaranch.


IcemanSK said:


> Are you sure that is the case for GM PARK? I've spoken to several  high-ranking Chung Do Kwan folks who are his direct students and he's always been referred to as 9th Dan. Can you point me to a source for that?



Was he the one you weren't sure about when you posted him in your list in 2006 ;-) Kukkiwon 10th Dans...who are they MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


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## andyjeffries

WaterGal said:


> Oh, I didn't mean online TKD classes.  I meant online classes in how to be an examiner, at least for the first level of examiner.  Like how USAT has an online class to be an associate coach, and then you have to do a live class for the higher levels.  I think that same approach could work for examiners, too.



I know you did and I agreed with you, but I know online training and certification for any aspect of a martial art is a hotly discussed topic...


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## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Kim Un Yong is an honourary 10th Dan, as is Juan Antonio Samaranch.



Is there any other kind of KKW 10th Dan?



andyjeffries said:


> I know you did and I agreed with you, but I know online training and certification for any aspect of a martial art is a hotly discussed topic...



If the certification is about 'how to teach' as opposed to 'how to kick', I think an online program is entirely reasonable. 

But as I said earlier, I think this program is more about "how to generate cash" than anything else. I do think it's likely to backfire, with schools opting out of issuing KKW certifications, but I think the goal is to increase cash flow.


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## Archtkd

Dirty Dog said:


> But as I said earlier, I think this program is more about "how to generate cash" than anything else. I do think it's likely to backfire, with schools opting out of issuing KKW certifications, but I think the goal is to increase cash flow.


I agree with that, but I don't think the Kukkiwon is going to generate much revenue with that project in the long term. Also, there's no incentive for any high ranking independent dojang owner in the U.S. to have to rely on a bunch of other dojang owners to recommend his or her students for higher Kukkiwon promotion.  If Kukki style dojang owners can already charge as much as a grand for low level in-house dan certificates, what's the incentive to agree to the new Kukkiwon project in which it's not clear how revenues (from promotion testing) will be shared?


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## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> If the certification is about 'how to teach' as opposed to 'how to kick', I think an online program is entirely reasonable.



Probably not even "how to teach", but how to set up and run the test, what to mark down for, etc. 

Right now, in the US at least, schools all kinda do their own thing in terms of format and contents. But if we're going to do paneled judging with masters from different schools, then that's not going to work anymore - we'll need a specific set of common guidelines about how the test is set up and run, what exactly will be on it, and what the standards are.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Probably not even "how to teach", but how to set up and run the test, what to mark down for, etc.



That doesn't even require a class, online or not. Just a published, standardized curriculum. Sort of like already exists for KKW schools, which says "to get rank X, you need to be able to do A, B and C."



WaterGal said:


> Right now, in the US at least, schools all kinda do their own thing in terms of format and contents. But if we're going to do paneled judging with masters from different schools, then that's not going to work anymore - we'll need a specific set of common guidelines about how the test is set up and run, what exactly will be on it, and what the standards are.



A set of common guidelines and standards already exists, although obviously schools do often add material beyond the basic requirements of the KKW. I think this is a good thing, personally.

Honestly, I think the only place this plan will work is a school large enough to have a promotion panel made up internally. 
For the rest of us, I think the added cost of bringing in people from other areas means we will simply stop offering KKW certification. Or we will be forced to raise the price.

I honestly see this as a case of trying to fix something that isn't broken.


----------



## IcemanSK

andyjeffries said:


> Kim Un Yong is an honourary 10th Dan, as is Juan Antonio Samaranch.
> 
> 
> Was he the one you weren't sure about when you posted him in your list in 2006 ;-) Kukkiwon 10th Dans...who are they MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community



Yeah, I've since learned otherwise regarding both GMs PARK & UHM. Dr. KIM Un Young & Samerach (sp?) were given 10th Dans for their contributions to TKD, but I don't know how long the list is of other living folks given that honor.

I did read that GM LEE Chong Woo, JiDo Kwan legend was awarded Kukkiwon 10th Dan upon his death last week.


----------



## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> Is there any other kind of KKW 10th Dan?



Yes, those two were given to non-Taekwondoin (as far as I know Dr Kim wasn't a high dan in Taekwondo, he was a business leader) as a recognition of their help in promoting Taekwondo.

The other type is a regularly promoted type of 10th Dan, as mentioned in the Kukkiwon rules and given to other existing 9th Dans.


----------



## andyjeffries

IcemanSK said:


> Yeah, I've since learned otherwise regarding both GMs PARK & UHM. Dr. KIM Un Young & Samerach (sp?) were given 10th Dans for their contributions to TKD, but I don't know how long the list is of other living folks given that honor.
> 
> I did read that GM LEE Chong Woo, JiDo Kwan legend was awarded Kukkiwon 10th Dan upon his death last week.



Yeah, I read that too.  Such a shame!


----------



## TrueJim

WaterGal said:


> I'm also concerned about the lack of communication from Kukkiwon about this. This post on here was the first I've heard about this.  We haven't received anything from Kukkiwon about it, and I can't find any info about it on their website or the USAT site.



Here's a nightmare scenario...some schools don't get the memo, they give their Black Belt tests like normal, only to discover that the tests have to be re-done! Can you imagine being the Black Belt candidate who's told he/she has to re-take their Black Belt test? Oy!


----------



## andyjeffries

TrueJim said:


> Here's a nightmare scenario...some schools don't get the memo, they give their Black Belt tests like normal, only to discover that the tests have to be re-done! Can you imagine being the Black Belt candidate who's told he/she has to re-take their Black Belt test? Oy!



At the moment this email seems to have gone out to only some members, I'm sure by the time the rules are live it will have been sent to all KMS members.  Only then people who still send in paperwork (the older generation) won't be aware of it.

But you're right, that would be a nightmare.


----------



## IcemanSK

I spoke (via email) with an American who went to the examiner's course in July at Taekwondowon. My take is that this will be very hard to implement in the US because we are so spread out & it will be very hard to get enough people trained in every part of the US to make this viable. Even in relatively small cities (let's say St. Lous, MO where ArchTKD is) 5 or 10 examiners (that St. Louis may be able to send for training in a year: in a perfect world) would not be enough to test everyone who wanted to test in a given year. As ArchTKD pointed out, those 5-10 examiners could charge outrageous fees that wouldn't make it viable to student or master.

Kukkiwon only invited 200 masters from around the world to their examiners training in July. There is little info about it on the web. It does seem as if the European Courses are a test to check viability. This seems like a soft roll-out to see how it's received. This makes me wonder (and I'm completely guessing here, so take it FWIW) if this kind of thing was why GM LEE Kyu Hyung did not stay as Kukkiwon president very long.


----------



## TrueJim

Yah, if Grandmaster Lee thought Kukkiwon politics were bad before, this seems to me like it has the potential to worsen the politics exponentially. They're artificially creating a constrained resource (testers), so that alone would make the politics worse. Then you add-in the inequity factor (that this hits rural areas far harder than large cities), and that will make tons of schools all around the world feel disenfranchised. The you add-in the inevitable cost increases for both the testers and the people being tested (the money to make all this happen has to come from somewhere, and I don't see how it won't fall on the backs of the people being tested), making the tension even worse. Then you add in the fact that you're creating new organizations that likely have somewhat different priorities than the Kukkiwon itself, creating more opportunity for push-back in multiple directions for anything the Kukkiwon tries to do from now on. It's hard to see the upside of this.


----------



## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> Yes, those two were given to non-Taekwondoin (as far as I know Dr Kim wasn't a high dan in Taekwondo, he was a business leader) as a recognition of their help in promoting Taekwondo.
> 
> The other type is a regularly promoted type of 10th Dan, as mentioned in the Kukkiwon rules and given to other existing 9th Dans.



Seems to be a fair bit of hair splitting. 
Given that all 10th Dan are "service" awards, that would seem to make them all honorary, to my way of thinking. 

But this is off topic, so I won't make any further posts on this sub-thread. 




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


----------



## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> That doesn't even require a class, online or not. Just a published, standardized curriculum. Sort of like already exists for KKW schools, which says "to get rank X, you need to be able to do A, B and C."
> 
> A set of common guidelines and standards already exists, although obviously schools do often add material beyond the basic requirements of the KKW. I think this is a good thing, personally.



I think it's a good thing, too, but I also think it's also unfeasible if we go this route.  If a state USAT branch organizes monthly dan tests, or multiple schools in your area get together to do a joint test (I think those are the most likely two options for how this will go down), then there has to be one standard for everybody.  No extra material.  There is a loss in that, I think, but it could create a stronger inter-school TKD community, which could be a gain, too.

However, any of this is only feasible for areas with multiple KKW masters.  Schools that are in isolated areas (or countries) where there isn't a big TKD presence will probably be unable to do dan gradings at all.


----------



## Archtkd

WaterGal said:


> If a state USAT branch organizes monthly dan tests, or multiple schools in your area get together to do a joint test (I think those are the most likely two options for how this will go down), then there has to be one standard for everybody.  No extra material.  There is a loss in that, I think, but it could create a stronger inter-school TKD community, which could be a gain, too.


I shudder to think of a scenario in which dojang owners in the U.S would be forced to take their students to some mass dan/poom testing events at the "state headquarters," like they have in some countries -- the very thing that has destroyed standards. In said mass testings, taekwondoin are paraded like hogs or cows waiting for slaughter and hastily put through tests that last 10 minutes, often observed by judges who really don't care. This kind of thing was the subject of an academic research paper I read last years, in which the author, a Korean taekwondoin, was decrying the lack of standards in mass dan/poom tests in Korea.


----------



## andyjeffries

Archtkd said:


> This kind of thing was the subject of an academic research paper I read last years, in which the author, a Korean taekwondoin, was decrying the lack of standards in mass dan/poom tests in Korea.



I don't suppose you still have that research paper available do you, I'd love to read it!


----------



## Archtkd

andyjeffries said:


> I don't suppose you still have that research paper available do you, I'd love to read it!


Andy: I will dig it up for you. It might have been presented at the symposium you attended in Seoul or a later one.


----------



## Archtkd

andyjeffries said:


> I don't suppose you still have that research paper available do you, I'd love to read it!



Andy: The specific paper is:  Taekwondo Certification Test as a “Rite of Passage”  and it was authored by Hyeong-Seok Song , and Jae-Jun Kim Dept. of the  Taekwondo, College of Physical Education, Keimyung University, Korea. It was pressented at the  The 4th International Symposium for Taekwondo Studies, Puebla, Mexico, in 2013, during the WTF World Taekwondo Championships. An abstract of the study can be found here: http://www.jiatr.org/data/2013_mexico.pdf . In fact anybody interested in reading lot's of cool stuff on Kukki taekwondo research should vistit the International Association For Taekwondo Research web site: at The International Association for Taekwondo Research IATR  . 

Some of the conclusions of the dan testing study in questions where: " The present research revealed that the Taekwondo certification test in Korea is held in unsuitable environments, judges were not wearing the same uniforms, and the uniforms of the participants were not classified according to their level.
Moreover special events were not offered in most cases except for a small number of test districts. The majority of the test was composed of poomsae and sparring, and the duration of each test was only two to five minutes because of the large number of candidates at the test. Since thousands of students were tested in one day, the certification test had to be held in a large gymnasium, and the time allowed for each test was limited. For these reasons, the place for the certification test was very noisy and distracting, and the running of the ceremony was disorganized."


----------



## WaterGal

Archtkd said:


> I shudder to think of a scenario in which dojang owners in the U.S would be forced to take their students to some mass dan/poom testing events at the "state headquarters," like they have in some countries -- the very thing that has destroyed standards. In said mass testings, taekwondoin are paraded like hogs or cows waiting for slaughter and hastily put through tests that last 10 minutes, often observed by judges who really don't care. This kind of thing was the subject of an academic research paper I read last years, in which the author, a Korean taekwondoin, was decrying the lack of standards in mass dan/poom tests in Korea.



Hmmm, that's disappointing. I've seen some pretty shoddy school tests, but that sounds worse.  I wonder if this move by KKW is actually meant to address the "judges who don't really care" part, by making them do this class?


----------



## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Hmmm, that's disappointing. I've seen some pretty shoddy school tests, but that sounds worse.  I wonder if this move by KKW is actually meant to address the "judges who don't really care" part, by making them do this class?



I'd say that "judges who don't really care" is the single group most likely NOT to take it. Followed closely by those who, if they want to offer KKW certification, will be forced to jack up the price in order to support the outside Masters they will have to bring in.


----------



## Metal

I gotta say that I was shocked when I saw a Korean Kukkiwon mass testing video for the first time, yet that won't mean that it'll be the same outside of Korea once the new Kukkiwon grading systems comes into place. In Germany we have regional 'mass' Dan gradings (for the national DTU Dan where you can also get your Kukkiwon certification) and people are being tested in groups of four and the totaler number of examinees goes up to 100. Some of the German regional and national examiners (right now all people close to Park Soo Nam who will run the German branch of Kukkiwon) now took the Kukkiwon Dan Grading course in Korea in order to still be active as examiners in the future and I doubt that anyone of those will lower their standards when it comes to testing.

Regarding fees, I doubt that prices will go up for those who already pay outrageous fees to their 'masters'. Those masters may raise their monthly training fee in order to compensate the income they usually had from Kukkiwon gradings though. When it comes to the DTU (German Taekwondo Union) I'm pretty sure that they'll do everything in order to keep the prices low and reasonable.

Plus the PDF document that Andy listed shows the fees:

1st Dan 70 US$
2nd Dan 90 US$
3rd Dan 120 US$
4th Dan 150 US$
5th Dan 300 US$
6th Dan 350 US$
7th Dan 400 US$




Will there be any benefits?

I would say yes when it comes to minimum standards (at least here in Germany I'm optimistic when I look who's involved in the local Kukkiwon branch) and hope that tests like this won't happen anymore:






I mean, kids are kids and not everyone wants to concentrate on Poomsae, but at least get the Poomsae right and know what's a block and what's a punch. The video is above is a clear example of "Let them pass so that their parents don't take 'em to another school". And I guess tests like those are one of the reasons for Kukkiwon to introduce the new grading policiy.


----------



## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> I'd say that "judges who don't really care" is the single group most likely NOT to take it.



Well, right.  So people who don't really care won't be judges anymore, which hopefully would raise the overall quality of big multi-school tests, if that's the route we're going.  

But then we're back to the question of: in places like the US that are very spread out, will there even be enough qualified judges in every area to support having that kind of test?  In metropolitan areas, where you might have 10+ KKW schools in one county, it shouldn't be a huge problem.  But in more rural areas, it would be impossible.


----------



## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Well, right.  So people who don't really care won't be judges anymore,



No, they'll just be giving out in house certificates, mostly to people who don't know the difference. Just as they likely do now.



WaterGal said:


> which hopefully would raise the overall quality of big multi-school tests, if that's the route we're going.



Why would it do that? You assume, firstly, that there is a deficiency in the quality of these tests now. An assumption that has yet to be proven.
And you ignore, secondly, the evidence that "big multi-school tests", such as are given NOW, at the KKW itself, have lower standards than most of us apply.



WaterGal said:


> But then we're back to the question of: in places like the US that are very spread out, will there even be enough qualified judges in every area to support having that kind of test?  In metropolitan areas, where you might have 10+ KKW schools in one county, it shouldn't be a huge problem.  But in more rural areas, it would be impossible.



Which is why I see this as likely to decrease the number of schools issuing KKW certificates. The cost of transporting and hosting Masters from other areas, plus providing them with an honorarium (there's no delusion that people are going to go do these tests for free, is there?) will be prohibitive.


----------



## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> Why would it do that? You assume, firstly, that there is a deficiency in the quality of these tests now. An assumption that has yet to be proven.
> And you ignore, secondly, the evidence that "big multi-school tests", such as are given NOW, at the KKW itself, have lower standards than most of us apply.



I think you've totally misunderstood what I was trying to say. I changed topics a bit and I think maybe I was unclear about that, so let me try again.

You've said is that the quality of big national/regional tests like they do at KKW is often not very good, because a lot of examiners on the panels don't care and just rush people through rather than grading them properly.

So my thought is this. This move by Kukkiwon - to require examiners to take a class before they can be a judge at an event like that - may be an attempt to correct _that _problem.  If the examiners at KKW etc are better qualified after taking this course (and the apathetic/lazy ones don't bother with it and quit being judges), it may raise the overall standards of those big national/regional tests.  The ones that currently have a low standard.

I think, as Americans (those of us that are Americans), we've been thinking about how this impacts the US, and whether this is a result of something done by masters in the US. I know I was. But it might have nothing at all to do with that.

Now, that still doesn't address the problem of how this will (or even _could_, if they're trying to start this next year!) be implemented in places like the US where testing is not currently done that way, and where that kind of testing may or may not even be feasible.


----------



## TrueJim

FYI, some of you may have already seen this on the taekwondo subreddit:

Kukkiwon_Letter_FINAL_7_OCT_15.pdf - DocDroid


----------



## TrueJim

Here's another update posted to the taekwondo subreddit. 

Letter from USAT Bruce Harris to Kukkiwon • /r/taekwondo


----------



## Dirty Dog

TrueJim said:


> Here's another update posted to the taekwondo subreddit.
> 
> Letter from USAT Bruce Harris to Kukkiwon • /r/taekwondo




So, as I predicted, this looks likely to result in less KKW certificates being issued and more schools splitting off from the KKW to join other orgs, or become independent. 

I've discussed this with my Master and our Kwanjangnim, and they have confirmed that if these new policies are enacted, we will simply stop offering KKW certification. We're not going to add a bunch more expenses with no real benefit.


----------



## kickingme

So with this new change.....as an instructor my question will be the cost to send a student to be in front of the said panel. Will the panel of these exams do this for the love of the art or will they get a few dollars for sitting on the panel. There are more ??? i am sure others have.


----------



## Jaeimseu

kickingme said:


> So with this new change.....as an instructor my question will be the cost to send a student to be in front of the said panel. Will the panel of these exams do this for the love of the art or will they get a few dollars for sitting on the panel. There are more ??? i am sure others have.


Or you can choose to get the qualifications necessary to promote beyond 2nd Dan. 

I think this is a big change in places like the US, but in Korea we send our students to Kukkiwon even for 1st Dan. I am curious what repercussions they plan to enact for people who skirt the rules. There was some fairly strong language in the email I received regarding not following Kukkiwon regulations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Dirty Dog

Jaeimseu said:


> Or you can choose to get the qualifications necessary to promote beyond 2nd Dan.



The new proposed rules require a panel. I can't get qualifications as a panel. Bringing in a panel is going to add a huge expense for small schools.



Jaeimseu said:


> I think this is a big change in places like the US, but in Korea we send our students to Kukkiwon even for 1st Dan.



While I think it would be awesome, I don't think we can reasonably expect our students to spend a few thousand dollars traveling to Korea.



Jaeimseu said:


> I am curious what repercussions they plan to enact for people who skirt the rules.



There cannot be any, because the KKW has no real power. We don't need to skirt the rules. We will just say "Forget it, KKW, we're no longer going to offer KKW certification."


----------



## TrueJim

If USA Taekwondo splits from Kukkiwon and sets up its own dan-issuing body here in the U.S., in the near term the loser will be Kukkiwon, since I'm confident USAT-issued dan certificates would be recognized for WTF tournaments. To my mind the bigger issue is how that affects the IOC's perception of taekwondo. Especially with karate making a bid for inclusion in the 2020 Olympics, this isn't a good time for taekwondo to appear divided.


----------



## Jaeimseu

Dirty Dog said:


> The new proposed rules require a panel. I can't get qualifications as a panel. Bringing in a panel is going to add a huge expense for small schools.
> 
> 
> 
> While I think it would be awesome, I don't think we can reasonably expect our students to spend a few thousand dollars traveling to Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> There cannot be any, because the KKW has no real power. We don't need to skirt the rules. We will just say "Forget it, KKW, we're no longer going to offer KKW certification."


The email I received says masters who become "licensed testing examiners" can test and promote in their own locations. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## andyjeffries

Jaeimseu said:


> The email I received says masters who become "licensed testing examiners" can test and promote in their own locations.



Have you shared the email you received?  The original concept sent out from Kukkiwon was around arranging panels (Kukkiwon Promotion Test Committee) and 3rd Dan + would have to be sat by these panels.

I shared the PDF I was sent in the first post.  The email copy itself said:



> Dear Respectable Master in Europe
> 
> I hope this letter finds you in good health. This is Master Y.J. Na, in charge of the Europe division. First of all, I take this opportunity to appreciate your devotion to the promotion and development of KUKKIWON Taekwondo.
> 
> I’m so proud to introduce the new ‘KUKKIWON Project’ to promote KUKKIWON target business, including the KUKKIWON Poom·Dan Promotion test and vitalize the martial art Taekwondo to enhance business ability and build on your Taekwondo Do-Jang strongly.
> 
> As you know, it is no doubt that as the World Taekwondo headquarters, KUKKIWON is responsible for promoting and developing the standards of Taekwondo as a martial art, as opposed to the sport. This can only be done by the KUKKIWON taking a more pro-active role in promoting to higher Dan ranks, the world Taekwondo for future leaders.
> 
> As you can see the attachment file for ‘New KUKKIWON Global Project’, the KUKKIWON will try to Contract ‘MOU’ with ‘MNA’ or ‘Taekwondo Organization’ to settle down the systemized KUKKIWON Promotion Test system and other related matters. *The main purpose of this project is to provide exact system of Poom·Dan Promotion Test under the name of the KUKKIWON Promotion Test Committee (KPTC).
> 
> As you may know the KUKKIWON will delegate the authority from the 3rd to 7th Dan promotion test to the appointed National Associations or Organizations which signed the MOU as the KUKKIWON Branch/Division. The Regular Promotion Test from 3rd up to 7th Dan will be organized (controlled) by its own KPTC or ETU KPTC by year 2016~2017 depend on the MNA status.*
> 
> Of course, KUKKIWON Master (KMS Member) can still recommend for 1st and 2nd Dan certificate via KMS on-line system. However, in the near future, a Master who does not hold the ‘Qualification license for the KUKKIWON Promotion Test Examiner’ cannot be recommended even 1st and 2nd Dan certificate.
> 
> In order to vitalize the KUKKIWON Poom·Dan Promotion Test project and improve the value of Poom·Dan certificates through formulating Taekwondo Poom·Dan Promotion Test system we are preparing the Educational Course and Special Dan Promotion Test in Europe. I would like to inform you the schedules of the KUKKIWON Event in Europe in this year. Please see the below information. And I kindly propose your full cooperation on this matter. Please approach careful consideration of this proposal and your feedback. I really appreciate your interest and look forward to hearing you soon. Thank you for your hard work and our deep relationship. For more information please contact with International Department. Thank you for your positive cooperation in advance.
> 
> The entire event will be organized by KUKIWON, ETU and ‘KUKKIWON Germany’.


----------



## Dirty Dog

andyjeffries said:


> As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course.  And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).
> 
> There are three different classes of test examiners (this is as I understand it, it may not be 100% correct):
> 
> 3rd Class Examiner - Can promote up to 3rd Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) or up to 2nd Dan as part of a dojang-panel, must have a minimum of 4th Dan Kukkiwon
> 2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate
> 1st Class Examiner- Can promote up to 7th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) and recommend for 8th Dan promotion to Kukkiwon, must have a minimum of 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 1st Class Master Instructor certificate
> The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified.  However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.
> 
> Thoughts on this new policy?





Jaeimseu said:


> The email I received says masters who become "licensed testing examiners" can test and promote in their own locations.



I've re-posted the original information provided.
According to what has been made public, these "licensed testing examiners" could only promote at their own dojang if they have enough 4th Dan (or higher) instructors at that dojang who have all taken the Super Special Instructor Class to learn the Super Secret Instructor Information (and handshake) that will, after a weekend, qualify them to promote their students. Because 20 years of training doesn't qualify you nearly as well as a pricey weekend seminar does.
So essentially, our KWN - a direct student of GM HWANG, Kee and then GM LEE, Kang Ik after the split, and a KKW 8th Dan - would not be able to promote someone to 1st Dan on his own recommendation. This is a man who has been promoting people to Dan ranks since at least 1961 (the oldest Dan certificate I've personally seen signed by him).
Sorry. That just seems absurd.


----------



## Jaeimseu

andyjeffries said:


> Have you shared the email you received?  The original concept sent out from Kukkiwon was around arranging panels (Kukkiwon Promotion Test Committee) and 3rd Dan + would have to be sat by these panels.
> 
> I shared the PDF I was sent in the first post.  The email copy itself said:


Haha. This is pretty funny now (to me). Upon closer inspection, the email I received is from "Kukkiwon America," which is apparently the newest org to attempt to handle Kukkiwon certification in the States. I thought the language was a bit strange. Here's the content of the message, which includes promotional material for a weekend seminar in Chicago in November (test examiners course/special promotion test, etc.). 



DEAR KIND AND HONORABLE READER,


PLEASE BE ADVISED THAT THE FOLLOWING STATEMENTS ARE TRUE:


1.
 With the authority and responsibility to maintain "global standards," the Kukkiwon is implementing regulations in the U.S. that are already successfully established in Korea and other countries.

2.
The Kukkiwon policy does not change anything for the individuals testing for 1st and 2nd Dans.  Individuals testing for 3rd through 7th Dans will need to be tested by a licensed Kukkiwon Test Examiner.  

3. 
Masters and Grandmasters who want to certify their own students should know current Kukkiwon standards by becoming licensed Kukkiwon Test Examiners. They can then promote their own students at their own location and with their own schedule.

4.
Regional Panels of Test Examiners will be set up in each state and will only need to be responsible for their own state.

5.
The Kukkiwon has a very clear picture of dojang operations worldwide, and as a "base" for examinations, the Kukkiwon standard was created as a minimum and allow instructors to include their personal material.

6.
Testing is supposed to be an "Examination," where the student is tested on the required material as articulated in the Kukkiwon rules.  Those conducting the examination need to have command of the testing material and be trained in how to score the different elements of the examination, in order to render a fair and qualified opinion on the student's ability to meet a "specified" standard during the examination.  Testing is not a "demonstration"; it is an examination.  Testing is about the "student," not the audience.

7.
 The organization that was given the lead five years ago to assist the Kukkiwon with the regulations not only failed in their attempts, but their actions have delayed the standardization in the U.S., and they are now working to discredit the Kukkiwon.

8.
To retain some semblance of order and presence for the Kukkiwon practitioners in America, MOU organizations were selected and were given the same opportunity, as was given to the WTMU, to assist in establishing the standards. Only the WTMU has fully invested the time, effort, and its resources, into helping the Kukkiwon here in America.

 9.
Bringing high standards and respect to Taekwondo, the Kukkiwon will continue to execute their federated strategy and regionalized examination panels with an inclusive mindset, so all Taekwondo practitioners in America have access to the Kukkiwon.

10.
The Kukkiwon urges all Taekwondo masters to come into compliance with existing policies of the Kukkiwon.  Active resistance to adopting the Kukkiwon test policies will not be tolerated.


Respectfully,

KH Kim, 9th Dan Kukkiwon

World Taekwondo Masters Union


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## Dirty Dog

Wow. There's nothing arrogant, high handed or insulting in that.


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## andyjeffries

Ahh, thanks James.  I'd read that one, I thought yours came from Kukkiwon.


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## TrueJim

Reading through these again, I'm unclear on the examiner "panels". I'm not seeing where it explicitly says that high-dan tests will be performed in front of _panels_. One could also read this as: if you run a school and you're not a certified Test Examiner, there will be a panel of such examiners in your state where you can go to borrow one. Is this just saying that you can performed your high-dan test in front of a lone examiner as long as he's been certified?


----------



## Jaeimseu

andyjeffries said:


> Ahh, thanks James.  I'd read that one, I thought yours came from Kukkiwon.


I thought it did, too. I didn't look closely since I'm not living in the US. I think Kukkiwon America needs to work on their PR skills. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal

Thanks for the updates, Jim.  USAT breaking off from Kukkiwon would be a huge development.

We got that same "Kukkiwon America" e-mail that Jaeimseu got, but gmail thought it was spam, hahah, so I just saw it a couple days ago.  The Chicago examiner's course is too last-minute, we've already got something going on that weekend.  There's another in January in LA, but going to that one will cost us about $1500 in travel expenses, plus whatever the cost of the course is, which isn't disclosed.  I really don't know how we can afford to do that.

I'm not totally opposed to this kind of move in _theory_, but the way they're implementing it is really, really terrible.  There's no transparency or communication with, it seems, much of anyone, and everything seems rushed and just thrown together.  Why did Kukkiwon pick some group no one's heard of, instead of USAT, which already has a relationship with both Kukkiwon and American schools, and has experience putting on dan tests and trainings?  That makes no sense.  

Also, and this is pretty important - has Kukkiwon even announced specifically _when _the changeover is going to happen and we'll no longer be able to do the promotion ourselves without this course?  They said the changeover would be next year, but does that mean January or December?  I can't believe that Kukkiwon hasn't sent out a notice to schools or even put on their KMS page the exact date when people will stop being able to go on the KMS site and certify people.


----------



## TrueJim

Jaeimseu said:


> Haha. This is pretty funny now (to me). Upon closer inspection, the email I received is from "Kukkiwon America," which is apparently the newest org to attempt to handle Kukkiwon certification in the States. I thought the language was a bit strange. Here's the content of the message, which includes promotional material for a weekend seminar in Chicago in November (test examiners course/special promotion test, etc.)



May I ask...what is the date of that email? The head of my school says he hasn't seen it, which means it's probably in his spam folder.

Along the same lines of what WaterGal said...*email*????  You'd think it would be sent in email, sent again as a written document, posted to a WTMU website (not that WTMU seems to have a website), sent again with updates as a follow-up email, etc. Even if a person agrees with the policy, the way it's communicated is very casual.


----------



## Jaeimseu

TrueJim said:


> May I ask...what is the date of that email? The head of my school says he hasn't seen it, which means it's probably in his spam folder.
> 
> Along the same lines of what WaterGal said...*email*????  You'd think it would be sent in email, sent again as a written document, posted to a WTMU website (not that WTMU seems to have a website), sent again with updates as a follow-up email, etc. Even if a person agrees with the policy, the way it's communicated is very casual.


I received that email October 24. I got another one in September announcing their website launch (kukkiwoninfo.org). 


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## WaterGal

Yeah, they really should have sent out letters informing schools of what's going on. It's not like Kukkiwon doesn't have the addresses of the schools that are promoting people, they could give that info to WMTU. Heck, when KKW sends out dan/poom certs, they could put a letter in the envelope with it.

I'd like to have gotten is a letter or packet listing:
- what, specifically, these changes entail
- when, specifically, it goes into effect
- a rough idea of where the examiner classes will be held and when (even without exact dates or addresses, something like "May/June 2016 - Denver, July/August - NYC" would be a big help)
- who to contact to get more information


----------



## andyjeffries

I've just heard from the ETU, I've been accepted on to the course next Friday.  I'll keep a diary of it and post it publicly afterwards.


----------



## WaterGal

Can you let us know what they say about when the new policy is going into effect?  I need to know what the deadline is for promoting people to 3rd dan without doing the course.  That way, we can decide whether Mr WaterGal needs to fly out to LA in January to do the course then, which will be very expensive and mean we need to raise our testing fees, or if we have time to wait for one that's closer by.


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## TrueJim

...also, I'm still confused about the use of the word "panel" in this context. Does that mean when somebody needs to test to 3rd dan, they do so in front of a panel? Or does it mean there's a regional panel in which examiners can be drawn from, but any one of those examiners will do in terms of giving the test?


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Can you let us know what they say about when the new policy is going into effect?  I need to know what the deadline is for promoting people to 3rd dan without doing the course.  That way, we can decide whether Mr WaterGal needs to fly out to LA in January to do the course then, which will be very expensive and mean we need to raise our testing fees, or if we have time to wait for one that's closer by.



Since the only official communication we have seen posted references a "panel" for promotions, I suspect Mr Watergal will need to take a couple others to LA in January.


----------



## andyjeffries

WaterGal said:


> Can you let us know what they say about when the new policy is going into effect?  I need to know what the deadline is for promoting people to 3rd dan without doing the course.  That way, we can decide whether Mr WaterGal needs to fly out to LA in January to do the course then, which will be very expensive and mean we need to raise our testing fees, or if we have time to wait for one that's closer by.



I'll certainly post back what I find out, particularly around rules and deadlines.

As I understand it at the moment, the new rules will take effect "from March 2016".  That doesn't mean that globally from that date it all changes, just that each country should aim to be ready by then and as each country is ready then the rules take effect in that country.


----------



## andyjeffries

TrueJim said:


> ...also, I'm still confused about the use of the word "panel" in this context. Does that mean when somebody needs to test to 3rd dan, they do so in front of a panel? Or does it mean there's a regional panel in which examiners can be drawn from, but any one of those examiners will do in terms of giving the test?



I haven't heard any official answers, but from conversations with people on the invitation course so far - it seems that people who are qualified examiners can still do their own gradings (maybe for a time period).  Panels will be formed from certified examiners in order to test students for people who don't have a qualified examiner in their dojang.  That may be wrong, but that's my understanding after speaking to multiple invitation course attendees (who incidentally all seem to have slightly differing opinions/understanding).  I aim to clarify next weekend and share!


----------



## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> Since the only official communication we have seen posted references a "panel" for promotions, I suspect Mr Watergal will need to take a couple others to LA in January.



I'm not a 4th dan yet, nor is anyone else at our school, so we wouldn't be able to do that. But I'm sure some of the other schools around here (of which there are many) will send people to that one or the one in Chicago.


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> I'm not a 4th dan yet, nor is anyone else at our school, so we wouldn't be able to do that. But I'm sure some of the other schools around here (of which there are many) will send people to that one or the one in Chicago.



That's my biggest single objection to this change. 
You are not alone. There are plenty of schools that will no longer be able to do their own promotions if a panel is required. They will be forced to bring in people. Which jacks up the prices. 



Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> That's my biggest single objection to this change.
> You are not alone. There are plenty of schools that will no longer be able to do their own promotions if a panel is required. They will be forced to bring in people. Which jacks up the prices.
> .


I think you are posting from a "minimal testing fee" background.  

For me, I would have preferred to test in front of a panel of people I don't know, provided the testing fee was less that the $370 it cost me.


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## TrueJim

For me, an equally significant issue is that there was no discussion about _which_ organization should represent the Kukkiwon in the U.S. Nothing against WTMU as an organization, but is that the best organization for this?


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## WaterGal

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think you are posting from a "minimal testing fee" background.
> 
> For me, I would have preferred to test in front of a panel of people I don't know, provided the testing fee was less that the $370 it cost me.



The problem is that, if teachers are expected to pay out of pocket to travel 1000+ miles and stay in a hotel for a week in order to take the class, they'll probably recoup that expense by charging _more_ for testing, not less.


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## WaterGal

Dirty Dog said:


> That's my biggest single objection to this change.
> You are not alone. There are plenty of schools that will no longer be able to do their own promotions if a panel is required. They will be forced to bring in people. Which jacks up the prices.



I think that - in areas with a lot of KKW TKD schools - people could trade off judging duties on a quid pro quo basis.  That is to say, we call up Masters B and C in the next town and say "hey, we want to do a dan test in May, could you come judge?" and then when Master B wants to do his test, he does the same thing.  But in areas where TKD schools aren't so common, that wouldn't be a viable solution.  Nor would it help schools that didn't have any certified examiner.


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## Dirty Dog

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think you are posting from a "minimal testing fee" background.
> 
> For me, I would have preferred to test in front of a panel of people I don't know, provided the testing fee was less that the $370 it cost me.



You think the school will be able to bring in a panel from other cities, feed them, house them, and charge $370 for the test? 

I'm going to put this mildly... are you nuts?


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> I think that - in areas with a lot of KKW TKD schools - people could trade off judging duties on a quid pro quo basis.  That is to say, we call up Masters B and C in the next town and say "hey, we want to do a dan test in May, could you come judge?" and then when Master B wants to do his test, he does the same thing.  But in areas where TKD schools aren't so common, that wouldn't be a viable solution.  Nor would it help schools that didn't have any certified examiner.



Right, so it's not really a solution. 
And then you get to "Hey, we've come to your school 3 times and you haven't come to ours (schedule conflicts, etc)."
Expecting people who run commercial schools to suddenly be willing to donate their time isn't very realistic, I think.


----------



## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> You think the school will be able to bring in a panel from other cities, feed them, house them, and charge $370 for the test?



That's largely why I'm keen to understand this "panels" thing. The communications so-far that I've seen have mentioned "panels" but they don't make it clear what the "panel" does. Is testing done in front of panels, or is testing done in front of an individual drawn from a local panel? It makes a big difference in terms of cost and logistics.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

Dirty Dog said:


> You think the school will be able to bring in a panel from other cities, feed them, house them, and charge $370 for the test?
> 
> I'm going to put this mildly... are you nuts?


No, what I'd like to see is testing directly with a central organisation.  Standards are standards; meet them and pass, don't and fail.  No "he tried his best".  And a more reasonable fee.

EDIT: And submitting the request to the KKW in a timely manner, rather than waiting months in order to keep a student longer.


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## WaterGal

Yeah, "panel" is very vague. What Gwai Lo Dan is suggesting makes a lot of sense.  WTMU might organize regional/state 3rd-7th dan mass tests.

I think, theoretically, that could actually be a good thing..... but based on WTMU's handling of this whole thing so far, I'm not sure how much I trust them to actually do a good job with that. My gut tells me it's going to be a big cluster****, at least at first.

Also.... if this is the case, are they going to pay masters to be on the panel?  Because otherwise, I don't know how many people will bother with the examiners course, if it costs money, they can't use it to promote their own students, and it obligates them to do free work.

[Edited for clarity.]


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## Dirty Dog

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, "panel" is very vague. What Gwai Lo Dan is suggesting makes a lot of sense.  WTMU might organize regional/state 3rd-7th dan mass tests.
> 
> I think, theoretically, that could actually be a good thing..... but based on WTMU's handling of this whole thing so far, I'm not sure how much I trust them to actually do a good job with that. My gut tells me it's going to be a big cluster****, at least at first.
> 
> Also.... if this is the case, are they going to pay masters to be on the panel?  Because otherwise, I don't know how many people will bother with the examiners course, if it costs money, they can't use it to promote their own students, and it obligates them to do free work.
> 
> [Edited for clarity.]



Methinks you're beginning to agree with me that this is likely to result in a significant decrease in the number of people offering KKW certification.


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## Jaeimseu

I'd worry more that with not all that many people in some states being certified to promote, your students may be required to travel to a "regional testing center," likely increasing their expense while simultaneously taking a bite out of the extra profit testing fees bring to many schools. 


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## TrueJim

WaterGal said:


> WTMU might organize regional/state 3rd-7th dan mass tests...I think, theoretically, that could actually be a good thing...



I dunno...we have some pretty big states here in the U.S., and some of them are pretty scarcely populated. If you're a small school in one of those states, and you've been awarding Kukkiwon certificates up until now, and suddenly you have to go a state panel that's hundreds of miles away (or the examiner needs to come to you), you might just stop bothering with Kukkiwon certificates. 

I suppose one could say, "Well, if you don't have the commitment to taekwondo to drive 6 hours and get a hotel room for the night to test, then you probably shouldn't be 3nd dan anyway", but that seems like it's measuring the wrong thing. Also, if you're a not-for-profit taekwondo club, even a small added expense might be impossible for you to afford.

*Some things I'm curious about though...*

1. Did we have such a quality problem across Kukkiwon-style taekwondo that we needed a fix? My own experience has been that low-quality schools are anecdotal. But that could be my limited experience. 

2. *More importantly,* even if we do need to fix a quality problem, *will this new process even fix the problem? *

If I'm a 5th+ dan who's been running a "McDojang" and I want to award 3rd dan, I'll just go ahead and take this Examiners course and continue to do what I've always been doing. What does this new process even fix, except to make "McDojang" owners (who are probably best positioned to even be able to afford this course anyway!) jump through a hoop?


And if I'm a lower-dan "McDojang" owner and I haven't been awarding 3rd dan certificates anyway, I'm obviously not going to bother taking this course, and I'll still continue to teach bad taekwondo.


If I'm high-dan who's already been running a good-quality school with good testing standings, this new course isn't aimed at me anyway.

It seems to me the only audience for this course is high-dans who _want_ to have higher testing standards for their schools but don't know how or what those standards should be?


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## andyjeffries

TrueJim said:


> 1. Did we have such a quality problem across Kukkiwon-style taekwondo that we needed a fix? My own experience has been that low-quality schools are anecdotal. But that could be my limited experience.



I would say that yes, we do.  Having experienced the Kukkiwon Master Instructor (with at least one of the fellow members of this board), the quality internationally is MUCH more variable than that in Korea.  I would say the average international 1st/2nd Dan is better than the average Korean of the same rank; but above that the Korean standard is far better than international standard.

My understanding is that this is to be expected - Koreans view 1st/2nd Poom/Dan as a beginner rank with expectations accordingly, whereas internationally these are "the amazing black belt" ranks.  Above 1st/2nd Dan the level of instructors isn't generally always available to bring people further on technically.



TrueJim said:


> If I'm a 5th+ dan who's been running a "McDojang" and I want to award 3rd dan, I'll just go ahead and take this Examiners course and continue to do what I've always been doing. What does this new process even fix, except to make "McDojang" owners (who are probably best positioned to even be able to afford this course anyway!) jump through a hoop?



That's assuming that McDojang instructors are of a high enough skill level to pass the course (not that I'm sure what standard will be required). You seem to be basing this on McDojang owners are a high rank/high skill but choose to turn out crap Taekwondoin in exchange for lots of money.  They may be genuinely low-skilled who are churning out crap Taekwondoin because they don't know any better.

Making them attend this course, may help them realise a)how bad they are and b)what their students should be doing in order to meet the internationally set standard (and therefore how far behind they are, prompting them to improve).

Just a couple of points from my experience.  Of course, there's no guarantee that the course won't be just a lip-service exercise and paperwork requirement...


----------



## Gnarlie

I will be very surprised if there is anything in this course that will be new to those of us who make an effort to stay current.

It would make more sense to audit first before such a course, to find out who actually needs to take the course and who doesn't.

It disappoints me that KKW feel they need to go down this road at all, given their lack of proactive support structure over the last decades for practitioners, rather than examiners. Basically just the textbook. Over my time in TKD I have been an advocate for KKW on many occasions as I believe in their standard even if their enforcement of it has been a bit shabby. Right now I still feel that the technical standard is a good thing, but I feel most disappointed that this step seems so poorly planned and rushed. 43 years of allowing people to misinterpret black and white pictures and word of mouth with no support, and then suddenly everybody has to stand by their beds inside of 6 months? Doesn't feel quite right.


----------



## Jaeimseu

andyjeffries said:


> I would say that yes, we do.  Having experienced the Kukkiwon Master Instructor (with at least one of the fellow members of this board), the quality internationally is MUCH more variable than that in Korea.  I would say the average international 1st/2nd Dan is better than the average Korean of the same rank; but above that the Korean standard is far better than international standard.
> 
> My understanding is that this is to be expected - Koreans view 1st/2nd Poom/Dan as a beginner rank with expectations accordingly, whereas internationally these are "the amazing black belt" ranks.  Above 1st/2nd Dan the level of instructors isn't generally always available to bring people further on technically.
> 
> 
> 
> That's assuming that McDojang instructors are of a high enough skill level to pass the course (not that I'm sure what standard will be required). You seem to be basing this on McDojang owners are a high rank/high skill but choose to turn out crap Taekwondoin in exchange for lots of money.  They may be genuinely low-skilled who are churning out crap Taekwondoin because they don't know any better.
> 
> Making them attend this course, may help them realise a)how bad they are and b)what their students should be doing in order to meet the internationally set standard (and therefore how far behind they are, prompting them to improve).
> 
> Just a couple of points from my experience.  Of course, there's no guarantee that the course won't be just a lip-service exercise and paperwork requirement...


Like Andy, I have seen a wide difference in quality internationally. More than that though, I often see people come into the dojang from various countries, and their techniques are also quite different. The way they do poomsae is also very different. If we are going to have a Kukkiwon Taekwondo standard, it would be nice to have it actually be standard. 

I think it will be extremely difficult to achieve this in the US. We have too many different tkd groups there. There is ITF and "ITF", Kukkiwon and "Kukkiwon." And there are many people who offer Kukkiwon certs without even attempting to teach Kukkiwon curriculum. 

I think the move could be beneficial, but I agree that it seems rushed and poorly planned. Finally, I think many instructors will refuse to change to the standard, and are likely to walk away when their students can't promote rather than admit to being "wrong."


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## andyjeffries

Jaeimseu said:


> I think the move could be beneficial, but I agree that it seems rushed and poorly planned.



Agree 100% mate.  If they announced a 3-5 year plan to get people qualified and educated, I don't think there'd be any/many complaints.



Jaeimseu said:


> Finally, I think many instructors will refuse to change to the standard, and are likely to walk away when their students can't promote rather than admit to being "wrong."



For quite a few I don't even see it as being that.  One of my goals is to pass on Taekwondo as 100% accurately as I can, without diluting it. However, while up until now I've been able to promote people to Kukkiwon 4th Dan, after these rules come in I'll only be able to promote people to Kukkiwon 2nd Dan.  The reason is that while I have a Master Instructor licence from Kukkiwon, my KKW 6th Dan won't take effect until January (after the course), so I can't get a 2nd Class Examiner certificate.  So, in all likelihood I'll issue KKW up to 2nd Dan and kwan-rank above that.  There are others who have higher dan than me, but they don't have a Master Instructor licence so they'll be the same boat, only get a 3rd Class Examiner certificate so above 2nd Dan will do their own thing.

I don't feel like I'm "wrong", I feel like I'm teaching things the right way, but still will suddenly be restricted from promoting candidates above a certain rank (but below the rank that I've been used to).

Even worse than that, I've been able to promote to 5th Dan CMK (and from January when my 7th Dan CMK takes effect it'll be up to 6th Dan for candidates), so to suddenly drop to only promoting to 2nd Dan isn't about me admitting to being wrong, it's about the rug being pulled out from under me.

P.S. James, I didn't take it as a personal attack although I can see my response may read as if I thought it was.  Just explaining why I don't think it's about people being wrong, but the rules change affects those of us trying to teach Taekwondo the right way as much as those who don't.


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## Jaeimseu

andyjeffries said:


> Agree 100% mate.  If they announced a 3-5 year plan to get people qualified and educated, I don't think there'd be any/many complaints.
> 
> 
> 
> For quite a few I don't even see it as being that.  One of my goals is to pass on Taekwondo as 100% accurately as I can, without diluting it. However, while up until now I've been able to promote people to Kukkiwon 4th Dan, after these rules come in I'll only be able to promote people to Kukkiwon 2nd Dan.  The reason is that while I have a Master Instructor licence from Kukkiwon, my KKW 6th Dan won't take effect until January (after the course), so I can't get a 2nd Class Examiner certificate.  So, in all likelihood I'll issue KKW up to 2nd Dan and kwan-rank above that.  There are others who have higher dan than me, but they don't have a Master Instructor licence so they'll be the same boat, only get a 3rd Class Examiner certificate so above 2nd Dan will do their own thing.
> 
> I don't feel like I'm "wrong", I feel like I'm teaching things the right way, but still will suddenly be restricted from promoting candidates above a certain rank (but below the rank that I've been used to).
> 
> Even worse than that, I've been able to promote to 5th Dan CMK (and from January when my 7th Dan CMK takes effect it'll be up to 6th Dan for candidates), so to suddenly drop to only promoting to 2nd Dan isn't about me admitting to being wrong, it's about the rug being pulled out from under me.
> 
> P.S. James, I didn't take it as a personal attack although I can see my response may read as if I thought it was.  Just explaining why I don't think it's about people being wrong, but the rules change affects those of us trying to teach Taekwondo the right way as much as those who don't.


I agree with you completely. I didn't mean to imply that what I wrote was the only issue. I think this plan is shortsighted precisely because of what you bring up. People are not going to suspend promotions that they've always been able to do because of a sudden technical rule change, especially if they are already following the Kukkiwon standard. 


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## andyjeffries

Well, I head off to the European Dan Examiner course in the morning.  I won't be "live blogging" here, if I hear anything important I'll try to pop back on and post it, but failing that will blog a diary on my website when I get back and link to it from here.


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## andyjeffries

I just wrote the below on Facebook, I'm not going to post my full diary until I've got home and edited it on a full screen, but thought the post below may help some people...


Feeling much more positive about the new Kukkiwon promotion stuff coming in. It seems they want educated examiners. They are happy for instructors to continue to test their own students going forward. The panels talk that everyone is complaining about, is to stop students from jumping around between instructors to get the best price/easiest test. 

They want reliable, trained instructors to test their students - if the student wants to test away from their instructor (or to the same rank as their instructor, hence it's not possible under them), then they should go in front of a panel not just someone else. So it's an either/or, not an "everything is going to independent panels" as the rumours are saying. 

I asked the translator/instructor specifically about this and recorded the audio of his answer. Very nice guy. So, panic over, hopefully as more people attend these courses, the rumours will die down. Looking forward to the morning - practical day. Hope my torn cartilage in my knee holds up for 10 hours of training!


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## Dirty Dog

So our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. Will he, or will he not, be able to promote our students without importing additional judges to our school?


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## Archtkd

Dirty Dog said:


> So our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. Will he, or will he not, be able to promote our students without importing additional judges to our school?



Dirty Dog. The project is not happening in the U.S. PM me your e-mail


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## andyjeffries

Dirty Dog said:


> So our KJN is a KKW 8th Dan. Will he, or will he not, be able to promote our students without importing additional judges to our school?



I spoke this evening to a different instructor on the course. He confirmed that once you have this course, you can still promote your students to one Dan below yourself. The panel stuff is if you can't grade your students or want to send them. I then also spoke to another 8th Dan kkw (and now 1st class examiner) and kkw told him he can still promote people in the same way as before now he's certified.


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## TrueJim

Any clarity yet on the question: how will Kukkiwon verify that somebody is "your" student?

I was speaking with the head of our school this morning, passing along what you said about how part of the intent is to keep people from "shopping around" for easy promotions. He confirmed that as a 7th dan he gets asked all the time for "special tests" -- of course he doesn't do it.  Still, it shows how naive I am...I was and am surprised that that problem exists.


----------



## andyjeffries

TrueJim said:


> Any clarity yet on the question: how will Kukkiwon verify that somebody is "your" student?



Unfortunately not, but there hasn't been much of a question/answer session. I've kept asking the important one (about promotion ranks) because that's the one that has most people grabbing their pitchforks. I think the answer is that they won't verify it, but by eventually ensuring that all examiners have done this course, and drilled it in to all of us, we'll know not to do it.


----------



## Dominator

Archtkd said:


> Dirty Dog. The project is not happening in the U.S. PM me your e-mail



This is very good news.  Not that I'd have a problem with being tested by a panel or sending students to test in front of one, but it's one of those situations where our school is up to/above KKW standards.  This is something that would have been more of a blow to schools with good standards.  I think most high Dan guys would just keep handing out school degree certs and belts anyway and charging a fortune.  It's actually kind of funny that KKW is worried about certs being just thrown around when there are so many people out there that won't promote to keep a monopoly in their area.


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## Dominator

TrueJim said:


> Any clarity yet on the question: how will Kukkiwon verify that somebody is "your" student?
> 
> I was speaking with the head of our school this morning, passing along what you said about how part of the intent is to keep people from "shopping around" for easy promotions. He confirmed that as a 7th dan he gets asked all the time for "special tests" -- of course he doesn't do it.  Still, it shows how naive I am...I was and am surprised that that problem exists.



I actually know of guys who somehow "convince" Grandmasters to host them for Dan promotions.  I get it that sometimes it's necessary to do so but I'm talking about guys who quit out at 1st Dan (or lower) and started their own schools.  That's just wrong on so many levels.  I don't know how it is around the world or even in other regions of the US, but in my state it's pretty hard to obtain anything above a 2nd unless you are damn good or training at one of two belt mills.


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## mattktkd

I believe this course is a great idea.  It will make Taekwondo less of a joke to people who don't do the sport.  Most non martial artist see Taekwondo as the easiest sport to get a black belt in, some schools saying it can take less then 2 years to earn a taekwondo blackbelt.  You also have to realize that there are always small changes being done to patterns, my master just took the course when it was offered out in Ohio.  He was one of the youngest masters on the floor.  But, he learned that Kukkiwon patterns have changed a lot since he learned them and began teaching them.  I now (a fourth dan) have to go back and re teach myself certain movements because were doing the patterns as they did back in the early 90s.


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## Dirty Dog

mattktkd said:


> I believe this course is a great idea.  It will make Taekwondo less of a joke to people who don't do the sport.  Most non martial artist see Taekwondo as the easiest sport to get a black belt in, some schools saying it can take less then 2 years to earn a taekwondo blackbelt.  You also have to realize that there are always small changes being done to patterns, my master just took the course when it was offered out in Ohio.  He was one of the youngest masters on the floor.  But, he learned that Kukkiwon patterns have changed a lot since he learned them and began teaching them.  I now (a fourth dan) have to go back and re teach myself certain movements because were doing the patterns as they did back in the early 90s.



Teaching more than the sport side would go much further towards changing the public perception of TKD.


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## Dominator

mattktkd said:


> I believe this course is a great idea.  It will make Taekwondo less of a joke to people who don't do the sport.  Most non martial artist see Taekwondo as the easiest sport to get a black belt in, some schools saying it can take less then 2 years to earn a taekwondo blackbelt.  You also have to realize that there are always small changes being done to patterns, my master just took the course when it was offered out in Ohio.  He was one of the youngest masters on the floor.  But, he learned that Kukkiwon patterns have changed a lot since he learned them and began teaching them.  I now (a fourth dan) have to go back and re teach myself certain movements because were doing the patterns as they did back in the early 90s.



I know what you mean about the changes.  The school I came up through still teaches poomsae at 90s standards.  I had to "relearn" every single one last year and now seeing the more "traditional" style kinda makes me cringe because that could still be me.



Dirty Dog said:


> Teaching more than the sport side would go much further towards changing the public perception of TKD.



That would be nice.  The biggest problem is that there are so many differing opinions on how to throw even the most basic kicks and punches.  It's hard enough to get everyone one the same page for poomsae and sparring.


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## Dirty Dog

Dominator said:


> That would be nice.  The biggest problem is that there are so many differing opinions on how to throw even the most basic kicks and punches.



No, there really are not. If you're studying in a KKW school, then the KKW defines the "proper" way to throw those kicks and punches. Same for an ITF school, or a Moo Duk Kwan school, or a Jido Kwan school, etc etc etc. These standards have been clearly defined since the 1950's (or earlier). I do not believe there have been any major changes.



Dominator said:


> It's hard enough to get everyone one the same page for poomsae and sparring.



No, it's not. Lots of arts have been doing so for decades. With forms that are, frankly, much more complicated than those taught in TKD. And with sparring rules that allow the use of a much larger portion of the art being taught.
If you think it's 'too hard' to teach to a standard while still teaching the entire art (as opposed to just the sporting aspects) then perhaps you're part of the reason why TKD has an image problem.


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## Rmedina

TrueJim said:


> Here's another update posted to the taekwondo subreddit.
> 
> Letter from USAT Bruce Harris to Kukkiwon • /r/taekwondo



http://www.codla.org/attachments/September 2013 Case Law Update.pdf

U.S. taekwondo Committee v. Kukkiwon—Court of Appeals nds no FSIA immunity in commercial transaction (CA 07/03/13). Kukkiwon is a South Korean organization that promotes the martial art of Taekwondo. It initially existed as a nongovernmental entity, and so constituted, it contracted with plaintiffs U.S. Taekwondo Committee and U.S. Kukkiwon, making plaintiffs its overseas branch in the United States. Shortly after the contract with plaintiffs was formed, the South Korean government passed a law making Kukkiwon a “special corporation,” and giving the South Korean Minister of Culture, Sports, and Tourism authority over several of Kukkiwon’s activities. Subsequently, Kukkiwon noti ed plaintiffs that it was unilaterally cancelling the contract, and plaintiffs led this action for breach. Plaintiffs contended that the Court of Appeals lacked jurisdiction to determine this appeal because it was interlocutory. An interlocutory appeal from a ruling denying Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) immunity is immediately reviewable as a “ nal judgment,” pursuant to CRS § 13-4-102(1). Therefore, the Court had appellate jurisdiction to review this issue. On the other hand, it did not have the authority to review a related act of state doctrine ruling, because it did not have pendent appellate jurisdiction. Defendant argued that the trial court erred in nding that it did not have FSIA immunity. FSIA is a federal statute that provides immunity to any “agency or instrumentality” of a foreign state unless, as pertinent here, the claim is based on “commercial activity.” The contract at issue here constituted commercial activity because it made plaintiffs an overseas branch of Kukkiwon and contemplated activity in the United States that could create revenue and pro ts. Therefore, defendants were not entitled to FSIA immunity.


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## Dirty Dog

OK... maybe I'm just stupid, but what does this lawsuit have to do with the KKW changing the rules on promotions?


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## Rmedina

Dirty Dog said:


> OK... maybe I'm just stupid, but what does this lawsuit have to do with the KKW changing the rules on promotions?




They must fallow the U.S. protocol i.e. federal and local business rules is all about money)


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## WaterGal

Let me see if I've got this right. Kukkiwon America (or US Kukkiwon or whatever they're calling themselves) is suing Kukkiwon because Kukkiwon wants to cancel the agreement with them for them to be the US national branch, on account of Kukkiwon now being basically part of the South Korean government rather than an NGO and can no longer legally engage in the kind of agreement they had made.  Do I have that right?

Are you saying that this lawsuit is why Kukkiwon America/WTMU is being so opaque about what's going on with the rule changes?


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## TrueJim

I think I'm the one who's missing something. The above PDF is from 2013. Is there some new update on this case that I've missed?   I don't see any updates listed on justia.com, for what it's worth.

Based on that PDF, the case looks like it's between the US Taekwondo Committee (which I assume is USAT?) and Kukkiwon?


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## Archtkd

TrueJim said:


> I think I'm the one who's missing something. The above PDF is from 2013. Is there some new update on this case that I've missed?   I don't see any updates listed on justia.com, for what it's worth.
> 
> Based on that PDF, the case looks like it's between the US Taekwondo Committee (which I assume is USAT?) and Kukkiwon?



The OP doesn't seem to have an idea of what he is talking or posting about. That case is old. The US Taekwondo Committee (USTC) has nothing whatsoever to do with USA Taekwondo or the test examiner issue. USTC is/was an organization founded by GM Sang Lee, who was unceremoniously kicked out from USTU, the predecessor body of USA Taekwondo. USTC in 2009 was the first organization to convince the Kukkiwon to offer it's international master instructor courses in the U.S. GM Sang Lee cut a deal with then/and short lived Kukkiwon president GM Seung Wan Lee for the USTC to be the Kukkiwon branch in the U.S. The deal fell apart when GM Seung Wan Lee was pushed out of the Kukkiwon. That's the basis of the breach of contract lawsuit, which as the case went could not really be heard in a U.S court. One thing of note Bruce Harris, the secretary general of USA Taekwondo was USTC secretary general in 2009. The USTC deal is in many way similar with the flawed one that GM Ki Hong Kim's World Taekwondo Masters Union (WTMU) has made with the Kukkiwon to offer Kukkiwon test examiner and master certification instructor courses.


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## Archtkd

WaterGal said:


> Let me see if I've got this right. Kukkiwon America (or US Kukkiwon or whatever they're calling themselves) is suing Kukkiwon because Kukkiwon wants to cancel the agreement with them for them to be the US national branch, on account of Kukkiwon now being basically part of the South Korean government rather than an NGO and can no longer legally engage in the kind of agreement they had made.  Do I have that right?
> 
> Are you saying that this lawsuit is why Kukkiwon America/WTMU is being so opaque about what's going on with the rule changes?



How is WTMU being "so opaque?" Have you spoken to anybody at the organization or attended any seminar they have hosted? And specifically what rule changes are you referring to?


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## andyjeffries

WaterGal said:


> Let me see if I've got this right. Kukkiwon America (or US Kukkiwon or whatever they're calling themselves) is suing Kukkiwon because Kukkiwon wants to cancel the agreement with them for them to be the US national branch, on account of Kukkiwon now being basically part of the South Korean government rather than an NGO and can no longer legally engage in the kind of agreement they had made.  Do I have that right?
> 
> Are you saying that this lawsuit is why Kukkiwon America/WTMU is being so opaque about what's going on with the rule changes?



I only saw a link relating to September 2013, so I don't think it has much to do with whatever is happening at the moment...


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## DaveHath

With all that being said. Does anybody have a clear picture as to what is the current status in the USA who holds the current MOU with Kukkiwon?

 I know things in Australia just started to settle down.
In theory the promotion procedures that they want to put in place are not bad, If we had more cohesive state level organizations. This would be too easy.  I do remember a time in TKD in the US where almost all promotions tests were made up of a panel of 5th dans and above from the other schools in the state. Though in the Northeast this is and was easier than in the west and Midwest due to distance. Every test I participated in and attended from 1984-1996 had a panel of 3-5 TKD masters usually 6th Dan and higher but always 5th dan and higher. While we did have school/kwan specific test requirements, the minimum KKW/USTU requirements were always part of the test. I have always felt that standardization is good. It provides a baseline. Individual schools can always add to but not take away from the min. However, we have not been very good at standardization in the US as far as TKD goes. Also Instructor training is a good thing as is Examiner training. We are not the first to do this. The problem is and this seems to be the case going back to day one, the way the courses are implemented. The whole do it now or else and then the lack of support or training from KKW makes the policy flawed.


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## Rmedina

andyjeffries said:


> As of early next year, Kukkiwon master instructors won't be able to promote candidates to dan/poom rank without having taken a promotion test examiner course.  And even when they do, they won't be able to promote above 2nd Dan without being part of a panel (invitation from the national Kukkiwon branch in their country).
> 
> There are three different classes of test examiners (this is as I understand it, it may not be 100% correct):
> 
> 3rd Class Examiner - Can promote up to 3rd Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) or up to 2nd Dan as part of a dojang-panel, must have a minimum of 4th Dan Kukkiwon
> 2nd Class Examiner- Can promote up to 6th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited), must have a minimum of 6th Dan Kukkiwon and 3rd or 2nd Class Kukkiwon Master Instructor certificate
> 1st Class Examiner- Can promote up to 7th Dan (as part of a national panel, if invited) and recommend for 8th Dan promotion to Kukkiwon, must have a minimum of 8th Dan Kukkiwon and 1st Class Master Instructor certificate
> The reasoning for this is to increase the standard of Kukki-Taekwondo practitioners by ensuring all the test panel members are qualified.  However, there are concerns that now people with many decades experience may as well rip up their high dan certificates, as now they are effectively as unqualified as a 1st dan in that they can teach but not promote anyone.
> 
> Thoughts on this new policy?
> 
> Where is the standard for Kukki-Taekwondo?


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## Rmedina

Where are the standard for KKW-Taekwondo?


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## Archtkd

DaveHath said:


> With all that being said. Does anybody have a clear picture as to what is the current status in the USA who holds the current MOU with Kukkiwon?.



A Memorundum of Understanding (MOU) for what? If you are talking about who can recommend dan/poom certification in the U.S it's any taekwondoin who is a member of the Kukkkiwon Membership System (KMS), which is basically any Kukkiwon 4th dan and up  who has applied and been approved for KMS membership. There are also several organization with MOUs to approve poom/dan recomendation including USA Taekwondo, United States National Taekwondo Federation (USNTF), U.S Taekwondo Committee (USTC), AAU Taekwondo, etc. Most Kukkiwon higher dan teachers --  8th dan and up -- can promote up to 7th dan in the U.S. Nothing has changed about individual teacher's rights to recommend Kukkiwon certification, or the rights of those organizations. There will be no changes in the U.S, precisely because the Kukkiwon, among other things, is not likely to shut down a cash spigot fed by so many teachers and organizations. The idea of mandatory committees will never fly in the U.S. Dojangs and organizations will continues make their own testing rules and organize voluntary testing panels as they have always done.


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## TrueJim

As I understand it, Dave is referring to the Kukkiwon's new "federated" approach wherein each country will have an in-country organization that represents the Kukkiwon in that country. The Kukkiwon has an *MOU* with each in-country organization giving that organization the authority to represent Kukkiwon in that country on designated topics. Here in the US the designated organization is now calling itself "Kukkiwon America" but previously it was known as the World Taekwondo Masters Union (WTMU), founded by Ki Hong Kim and headquartered outside Chicago. As another example, the school previously known as T4U in Australia now calls itself Kukkiwon Australia and of course represents Kukkiwon down-under. See for example, TKD4YOU

If I'm understanding Dave's question correctly, he's asking:

There were objections to WTMU representing Kukkiwon in the US without a more transparent selection process. Has anything changed with regard to that? No, not that I'm aware of. WTMU is still "Kukkiwon America".
Will US instructors (even high-dan instructors) have to take the Examiners Course in order to promote their own students past 2nd dan (if they want their student to receive a Kukkiwon dan certificate)? Yes, as far as I know that new requirement went into effect *this month*.
Upshot: unless you've taken the Examiners Course organized by the WTMU here in the US, starting *this month* you will no longer be able to recommend dan certification for 3rd dan or higher.

Arch...I haven't heard or seen any announcements to the contrary?  But I also haven't yet heard a case where somebody has recommended somebody for dan promotion and had it rejected by Kukkiwon...that will be interesting to see when/if it first happens!


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## Archtkd

TrueJim said:


> Will US instructors (even high-dan instructors) have to take the Examiners Course in order to promote their own students past 2nd dan (if they want their student to receive a Kukkiwon dan certificate)? Yes, as far as I know that new requirement went into effect *this month*.
> Upshot: unless you've taken the Examiners Course organized by the WTMU here in the US, starting *this month* you will no longer be able to recommend dan certification for 3rd dan or higher.
> 
> Arch...I haven't heard or seen any announcements to the contrary?  But I also haven't yet heard a case where somebody has recommended somebody for dan promotion and had it rejected by Kukkiwon...that will be interesting to see when/if it first happens!



I keep saying this over and over again. There will be no changes in the U.S. There will be no more examiner courses. The examiner course in California in January was probably the last one to be offered in the U.S. That ill-concieved examiner project will not go forward. Thinking of it. Have you ever seen an official Kukkiwon communication to teachers in the U.S states, talking about the changes? Any communication about the issue has always been made by WTMU. There are more than 4,000 teacher in the U.S, who are KMS members who can recommend Kukkiwonw/dan certification, and only a miniscule number of them (about 250) tool the WTMU sponsered examiner courses.


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## WaterGal

I haven't seen any announcement one way or the other, from either WTMU/Kukkiwon America or from Kukkiwon.  But I think that, at least for now, Archtkd is probably right.

WTMU/Kukkiwon America's website says they're in the process of organizing state and regional branches, and are looking for people to run them.  I really really doubt that they're going to enforce any requirement to take the examiner's course before they've finished setting up their organization.  I'm pretty sure that they'll wait until they have a branch in every state that can put together testing panels to do 3rd dan & up tests.

Once that happens, if it happens?  Who knows.


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## TrueJim

This is just my opinion, but I think perhaps you guys are giving Kukkiwon and WTMU too much credit for being that organized.  Let me lay out a scenario that seems equally likely to me: starting this month schools in the U.S. will start recommending 3rd dan promotions to Kukkiwon just as they always have, Kukkiwon will check whatever database is being used to track instructors who have taken the Examiner's Course (which for all I know is a yellow steno-pad with hand-written notes  ). Not seeing the instructor's name on the list, Kukkiwon _might_ summon the wherewithall to check with WTMU to verify that the name is not on the list. Whether they do or don't double-check the list, Kukkiwon will deny the promotion. The instructor will complain that no WTMU offered no Examiner's Courses nearby or recently, and Kukkiwon will point fingers at WTMU, but still deny the promotion. Then Kukkiwon and WTMU will stand around pointing fingers at each other for a few months while the poor instructors tear their hair out in frustration. Kukkiwon will _want_ the money, but they also won't want to back-down on their deadline, and WTMU will get in hot-water with Kukkiwon for threatening the Kukkiwon's revenue stream. THEN either Kukkiwon will officially delay the deadline, or WTMU will get its act in gear, or something.

I'm not saying this is more likely than your scenario, but it seems equally likely to me. For Kukkiwon to just _ignore_ its own deadline may be a bureaucratic impossibility....like admitting that the TPS reports didn't really need a new cover page.


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## Archtkd

TrueJim said:


> This is just my opinion, but I think perhaps you guys are giving Kukkiwon and WTMU too much credit for being that organized.  Let me lay out a scenario that seems equally likely to me: starting this month schools in the U.S. will start recommending 3rd dan promotions to Kukkiwon just as they always have, Kukkiwon will check whatever database is being used to track instructors who have taken the Examiner's Course (which for all I know is a yellow steno-pad with hand-written notes  ). Not seeing the instructor's name on the list, Kukkiwon _might_ summon the wherewithall to check with WTMU to verify that the name is not on the list. Whether they do or don't double-check the list, Kukkiwon will deny the promotion. The instructor will complain that no WTMU offered no Examiner's Courses nearby or recently, and Kukkiwon will point fingers at WTMU, but still deny the promotion. Then Kukkiwon and WTMU will stand around pointing fingers at each other for a few months while the poor instructors tear their hair out in frustration. Kukkiwon will _want_ the money, but they also won't want to back-down on their deadline, and WTMU will get in hot-water with Kukkiwon for threatening the Kukkiwon's revenue stream. THEN either Kukkiwon will officially delay the deadline, or WTMU will get its act in gear, or something.
> 
> I'm not saying this is more likely than your scenario, but it seems equally likely to me. For Kukkiwon to just _ignore_ its own deadline may be a bureaucratic impossibility....like admitting that the TPS reports didn't really need a new cover page.



TrueJim: that scenario you are envisioning will never occur. Why? The are many organizations in the U.S, including USA Taekwondo, -- and individual teachers -- who already process hundreds of Kukkiwon applications every year, much more than WTMU has ever processed. The Kukkiwon listens/and has listened to those organizations and individual teachers, who generate serious money. WTMU leaders might have ambitions and plans, but those are not the Kukkiwon's plans in the U.S. 

By the way, have you or your teacher ever seen any official communication, letter, etc., from the Kukkiwon giving WTMU the powers it claims to have. If there was such communication don't you think WTMU would have posted it on their web site ages ago? I am not saying WTMU leaders are liars, but their goals do not jive with the Kukkiwon's current plans.
There are almost 8,100 Kukki taekwondo grandmasters and masters in the U.S, according to current Kukkiwon records. Those are taekwondoin ranked 4th - 9th Dan, the bulk of whom currently have individual rights to recommend Kukkiwon dan/poom certification.There's no way the WTMU would be given powers to control the business of that number of American senior taekwondoin.


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## TrueJim

I'm pretty sure the head of my school did receive one like this: The New KUKKIWON Project.pdf - Taekwondo Union ... 

He didn't show me the letter, but he did mention that he had called up his colleagues inside Kukkiwon to talk about the letter. From that, I infer that he must have received that letter.

That letter doesn't name WTMU by name, but does say each country will have a "Member National Association" (MNA). Then as you know, people started receiving letters like this one http://www.kidokwan.org/2015/10/2015-kukkiwon-invitational-course-in-usa/ from WTMU, claiming to be the MNA for the U.S.

But your larger point is spot-on...this whole thing is so disorganized! One would think there should have been a LOT more communication about a change like this. That's why I'm pessimistic.  Things this disorganized can go pretty sour!


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## Archtkd

TrueJim said:


> But your larger point is spot-on...this whole thing is so disorganized! One would think there should have been a LOT more communication about a change like this. That's why I'm pessimistic.  Things this disorganized can go pretty sour!


I was at the Chicago seminar, and Truejim, you've read my report. Towards the end of the seminar a participant asked GM Park, Chulwung, deputy chief of the Kukkiwon's International business team, what the certification as an examiner really meant and what changes would occur in coming months. GM Park, a good diplomatic communicator, sidestepped that question almost altogether. My short interpretation of what he answered back was that there would be no changes anytime soon. The Kukkiwon was genuinely interested in raising standards, he suggested, but there was no definite timeline about implimentimg the examiner certification project. Any experienced taekwondoin would have noticed that many teachers at the Chicago seminar required more training on Kukki standards and perhaps would have been better prepared by taking an instructor course.  Unlike in Korea, where teacher have to take the instructor course to be allowed to open a dojang, there is no no such requirement in the rest of the world, hence the great disparities in standards. In that context, the Kukkiwon is finding itself in a quandary. What is more important for the development of Kukki taekwondo? Is it creating good dan/poom examiners or good taekwondo teachers? Also, who gains the most from the Kukkiwon examiner courses and proposed project? Individual teachers and their students or the organizations hosting the courses and creating testing panels?


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## TrueJim

I've heard at least one person suggest that if Kukkiwon wanted to raise standards, a better approach would be to hire a bunch of Korean college interns with dan rank and send them on tours of the U.S. schools to demonstrate. That's probably unaffordable I guess. But I agree; even just attending regional tournaments, you can tell the difference between schools where the students are being taught techniques that closely resemble Kukkiwon guidelines, and schools where the students are being taught really unusual techniques.


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## tubby

TrueJim said:


> As another example, the school previously known as T4U in Australia now calls itself Kukkiwon Australia and of course represents Kukkiwon down-under. See for example, TKD4YOU


just as TA and STA seem to be progressing through their integration T4U pops up and I'm getting mails saying this group has no authority and have no idea who's running anything right now. It is having an effect as I've been told it's highly unlikely (yet again) there will be any competitors in my division (ok so it's the fat and old division) in the state championships coming up, that's not a healthy state of things


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## Prototype

If it will decrease the number of unqualified black belts, it's a good thing for KKW. Let's go back to a time where black belt actually signified _something. _


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## Dirty Dog

Prototype said:


> If it will decrease the number of unqualified black belts, it's a good thing for KKW. Let's go back to a time where black belt actually signified _something. _



Black belt does mean something. What that is, specifically, varies quite a bit from one school and one system to another. And always has. And always will.


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## TrueJim

Dirty Dog said:


> Black belt does mean something...



...yes, the black belt means that when everybody lines up at the start of class, you get to stand in front of the red belts.


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## TrueJim

I notice today that the World Taekwondo Masters Union (WTMU) changed the name of their Facebook page from _Kukkiwon America_ back to WTMU.

That inspired me to go check on the _Kukkiwon America_ website -- WTMU has let that domain-name expire. So I guess now they're just WTMU (not Kukkiwon America) -- even though they still "deliver Kukkiwon services to the U.S." (according to the WTMU website).


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## andyjeffries

I think (unofficially) that the Kukkiwon is having internal debates about the overseas branches and poom/dan examiner courses. When I was in Korea in March, a senior Kukkiwon official had told me that the poom/dan examiner courses had been dropped and then one was held at the UK course just after. I can't imagine WTMU has accidentally let it expire, so maybe they know something about the overseas branches programme being dropped?


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## WaterGal

Mr. WaterGal went to the Foreign Instructor Course offered in Denver last month, and that was put on by USTC rather than WTMU.  

The website for that event included the following, which I found, um,_ surprisingly undiplomatic_ and stuck in my memory:


> Kukkiwon America is NOT an official branch of the Kukkiwon and Kukkiwon America does not officially exist.  The group “World Taekwondo Masters Union (WTMU)” is using the name “Kukkiwon America” without the authorization of Kukkiwon to mislead people.  No organization or group can use the name “Kukkiwon America” without direct approval from the Kukkiwon.  They have been notified by the Kukkiwon to cease using the name “Kukkiwon America.”
> 
> The WTMU is an independent organization that has held events with the Kukkiwon under a “Memorandum of Understanding (MOU).”  This MOU is no longer valid.  In 2016 while the MOU was still valid, the Kukkiwon approved a Master License Course to be held in California in June 2017.


(Source: FAQs)


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## TrueJim

WaterGal said:


> Kukkiwon America is NOT an official branch of the Kukkiwon and Kukkiwon America does not officially exist..



Oh sure, they say that NOW.  But seriously, it's hard to entirely square that claim with what Kukkiwon published in 2015: The New KUKKIWON Project.pdf

*"Policy Project Ⅰ - Establish the Kukkiwon Branch or Division*

Purpose : In order to vitalize the Kukkiwon Business through building the overseas organization based

Direction: Promote to install the Kukkiwon branch or Division depending on national circumstances.
"1) Kukkiwon Branch - *The Kukkiwon plan to set up one branch for each nation*. The Kukkiwon can directly establish the overseas corporation or approve a MNA or local subsidiary as the Kukkiwon branch.

"2) Kukkiwon Division - The Kukkiwon plan to install the Kukkiwon Division, as a pre-stage for establishing the Kukkiwon Branch, to carry out the Kukkiwon target business, including Kukkiwon Poom·Dan Promotion Test through an agreement with the national association or Taekwondo organization."


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## WaterGal

I don't think those statements are _necessarily _contradictory.  I guess it depends on whether Kukkiwon actually officially made an agreement to have WTMU be their US branch organization.


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## TrueJim

This is from the WTMU website:

"Kukkiwon America WTMU is the official holder of a Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) with the Kukkiwon in the United States, and is granted permission to conduct all the programs and services listed on this website."

WTMU, World Taekwondo Masters Union


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