# what is black dot focus? what is it not?



## Touch Of Death (Feb 26, 2004)

Hello all, just wondering what your thoughts on Black dot focus are. Try not to use the "Truck and Bumper" analogy.
Sean


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## kenpo12 (Feb 26, 2004)

I don't know, I just hit my opponent repeatedly, don't know nothing 'bout no dots.


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## kenpoangel (Feb 26, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> I don't know, I just hit my opponent repeatedly, don't know nothing 'bout no dots.



I'm with Matt,

I don't see no stinkin' dots but apparently the guys say they do after I ball kick 'em in the cup. 

No wait a sec...that's little yellow birdies circlin' round their 'head'...nevermind.

What?

 :btg:


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## 8253 (Feb 27, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Hello all, just wondering what your thoughts on Black dot focus are. Try not to use the "Truck and Bumper" analogy.
> Sean


 
the only dots i see are their eyes, right before i swell them shut. :flammad:


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## ShaolinWolf (Feb 27, 2004)

Maybe your talking that thing with the black concentration dots of some sort? like when you look between a bunch of back patterned squares on a white sheet of paper?...I'm not sure I've ever heard of that...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

kenpo12 said:
			
		

> I don't know, I just hit my opponent repeatedly, don't know nothing 'bout no dots.


I suspected as much. :asian: 
Sean


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## kenpo_cory (Feb 27, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Hello all, just wondering what your thoughts on Black dot focus are. Try not to use the "Truck and Bumper" analogy.
> Sean



Not sure if your just wanting opinions or what. Personally, I think it's a very valuable tool for focusing on the whole picture and not just hitting someone randomly.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> Not sure if your just wanting opinions or what. Personally, I think it's a very valuable tool for focusing on the whole picture and not just hitting someone randomly.


I feel that is only one aspect of the cocept, but I'm glad someone seems to have heard of it.
Sean :asian:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 27, 2004)

There are a ton of really cool theories and concepts in EPAK.  This one, however, is just plain nonsense.  Really, just a silly analogy to apply a name to "paying attention".


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> There are a ton of really cool theories and concepts in EPAK.  This one, however, is just plain nonsense.  Really, just a silly analogy to apply a name to "paying attention".


Spoken like a true Tracy's man. The Concept of Black dot focus is better described through metaphore but it is not a metaphore. It all has to do with attention and intention. A fifteen year old pays attention to his or her driving only. That person's parent can drive, change the radio station, eat french fries, and yell at their kids in the back seat all at the same time. That is because they have the intention of driving while they pay attention to other pressing matters; they hate that song and her kids won't stop[ singing along!
Another metaphore is the militarty. The Specialists are your white dot focus. The Officers and upper enlisted are your Black dot focus. 
Declaring an Ed Parker concept nonsense just proves you never understood it in the first place.
Sean
Ps I studied Tracy's in Denver so I'm qualified to make that first statement. :uhyeah:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 27, 2004)

Sorry, I'm not a Tracy's man either.   

And, no matter how many ways you find to apply the BD/WD theory, it is still nonsense.  But, feel free to prove me otherwise:  provide one example where it made a significant difference in a self-defense situation outside the dojo.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sorry, I'm not a Tracy's man either.
> 
> And, no matter how many ways you find to apply the BD/WD theory, it is still nonsense.  But, feel free to prove me otherwise:  provide one example where it made a significant difference in a self-defense situation outside the dojo.


No problem, you pay attention to what part of the foot you kick with when you are first learning the knife edge in the studio, and you don't think about it on the street in a real situation. You have the developed the neuromuscular memory to black dot focus caliber. Do I need to tell you about the fights I was in where I used a proper weapon, or are you starting to get the idea?
Sean


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 27, 2004)

Sean:  I understand the basics of the concept.  My skepticism is really about the value add of the vocabulary surrounding the concept.  Most Kenpo vocabulary adds value by providing a better way to understand and apply Kenpo concepts.  I believe that the vocabulary of Black Dot/White Dot adds no value.  

For instance, using your example...you are able to use proper foot position because you practiced it and committed the proper position to muscle memory--not because you applied Black Dot / White Dot concept to your training or chose to apply it in a street situation.

When the vocabulary around the concept adds no value, it simply becomes jargon -- or "mumbo jumbo"


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## psi_radar (Feb 27, 2004)

I think the analogy that I've heard that best described the concept to me was the "train tunnel." If you're in a train tunnel, your attention focuses on just one point--the white dot of light at the end that is your escape. The lesson being, don't target fixate rather than using your peripherals or expanded senses. A good to know but rather obvious concept.

This is also a lesson they teach at the motorcycle safety course. Target fixation is the leading cause of most newbie accidents.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sean:  I understand the basics of the concept.  My skepticism is really about the value add of the vocabulary surrounding the concept.  Most Kenpo vocabulary adds value by providing a better way to understand and apply Kenpo concepts.  I believe that the vocabulary of Black Dot/White Dot adds no value.
> 
> For instance, using your example...you are able to use proper foot position because you practiced it and committed the proper position to muscle memory--not because you applied Black Dot / White Dot concept to your training or chose to apply it in a street situation.
> 
> When the vocabulary around the concept adds no value, it simply becomes jargon -- or "mumbo jumbo"


No, Mr. Wortman,
BDF and WDF are the main concept and commiting moves to neuro muscular memory is one apect of a broader concept. Forms are black dot focus and sets are white dot focus. Both have value. Kenpo is a black dot focus art. You train with the attitude of not having to pay attention to anything but what is happening at this exact moment. You can't focus on your memory for what to do, you can't think about what you should have done. Your only focus is on the now. Ignoring the broader generalized principles is what I jokingly call "caveman Kenpo"(my pet name for Tracy's) The Tracy's Iv'e talked to continualy say you can't be thinking about principles. Which is ironic because that is black dot focus. The mistake is to dismiss principles all toguether to acheive it. I could have sworn you said you came from a Tracy's school, Sorry for the mix up.
Sean


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 27, 2004)

Sean:  my instructor left the Tracy's in 1964.  The Kenpo system he taught is similar in many ways to Tracy's, but is not Tracy's.  

Again, no argument about the importance of proper mental focus.  My only argument is about the value of calling it Black Dot / White Dot.  You have eloquently explained the concept using terms everyone can understand.  What is the value add of the BD WD jargon when plain language can explain the concept just as easily.  One of the criticisms of many Oriental martial arts is that you have to learn Japanese, Korean, or Chinese names for the moves.  One of the benefits of American Kenpo (for Americans at least) is that it is in English.  Yet, American Kenpo has a term like BD WD that is just as obscure to an outsider as a Japanese term would be.


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## Rainman (Feb 27, 2004)

Do a SEARCH for BLACK DOT FOCUS- This topic has been covered-  And for you OLD FAT JUJITSUKA- How is it you have so much knowledge of a system you have never studied?    :rtfm:  O you tried to do that and you did not understand- imagine that.  The II's are reference material, you cannot learn the art from a book.   Do you think you can read a states tort law and be qualified to represent someone in a court of law?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sean:  my instructor left the Tracy's in 1964.  The Kenpo system he taught is similar in many ways to Tracy's, but is not Tracy's.
> 
> Again, no argument about the importance of proper mental focus.  My only argument is about the value of calling it Black Dot / White Dot.  You have eloquently explained the concept using terms everyone can understand.  What is the value add of the BD WD jargon when plain language can explain the concept just as easily.  One of the criticisms of many Oriental martial arts is that you have to learn Japanese, Korean, or Chinese names for the moves.  One of the benefits of American Kenpo (for Americans at least) is that it is in English.  Yet, American Kenpo has a term like BD WD that is just as obscure to an outsider as a Japanese term would be.


Well I think the value is to understand where all these random things you are doing fit. Its the yin and yang I was provided with when I joined Kenpo. You can spar in the intention state or the attention state. You don't learn a whole hell of a lot in the intention state unless of course you get tagged. For me these are old words. They are in plain old english. However, if you haven't had this drilled in your head since you were a kid, I can understand why you might reject the metaphore. Thank you for dicussing this with me; a freind recently asked me what my overall philosophy of Kenpo was, and I thought for a while and said, "Black Dot Focus".
Sean :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> There are a ton of really cool theories and concepts in EPAK.  This one, however, is just plain nonsense.  Really, just a silly analogy to apply a name to "paying attention".


Now your over on the KN calling the universal patern a spirograph drawing(ha ha ha). Have your cornflakes recently been tampered with? :flammad: 
sean


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 27, 2004)

I actually thought it was simpler than all this--"white dot," focus, you only see the center and nothing around that center, "black dot," focus, you don't see the center, and you only see everything around it.

And I consider myself uniquely qualified to say this, because I screwed the whole thing up (got it backwards) while I was teaching a group class, with the Tatums watching, of course. Sweet.

As for the terms being silly, well, no sillier than anything else in the martial arts. Pretty much everything we say about them is some sort of metaphor or tool, anyway...

Then there's the essential silliness of the whole gi-and-belt deal, or of practice, or of all our pretenses...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I actually thought it was simpler than all this--"white dot," focus, you only see the center and nothing around that center, "black dot," focus, you don't see the center, and you only see everything around it.
> 
> And I consider myself uniquely qualified to say this, because I screwed the whole thing up (got it backwards) while I was teaching a group class, with the Tatums watching, of course. Sweet.
> 
> ...


I suppose you could limit the concept to what you see and what you don't see, but then its usefullness wains.
sean


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## Rainman (Feb 27, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I actually thought it was simpler than all this--"white dot," focus, you only see the center and nothing around that center, "black dot," focus, you don't see the center, and you only see everything around it.
> 
> And I consider myself uniquely qualified to say this, because I screwed the whole thing up (got it backwards) while I was teaching a group class, with the Tatums watching, of course. Sweet.
> 
> ...



Just tell you you are wrong when you are wrong...okay 

Not exactly wrong but the discussion of the art being 3 dimensional (at least) should have provoked you to investigate depth.  How many things can use depth?  How many ways can depth be used?  How many zones of depth are there?  Can depth be cancelled?  Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera,

The language of the art has never been silly.  Uniforms provide durable and washable attire in which to comfortabley train in.  Nothing more.   Is it the belts, or is it the people who wear them?  Or is it the color?   Or the stripes?  Or the bars?  

Metaphors- simple philosophy  is it not?  AK is at one point philosohpical, logical and symbolic...no?


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 27, 2004)

Rainman said:
			
		

> Not exactly wrong but the discussion of the art being 3 dimensional (at least) should have provoked you to investigate depth. How many things can use depth? How many ways can depth be used? How many zones of depth are there? Can depth be cancelled? Etcetera Etcetera Etcetera,


Man, wished I'd of thought of that, back to the drawing board.   I didn't realize the discussion went from the BD/WD logic to the Universal Pattern.   So what are those dimensions again, Height,__,__, __, I can never remember?   And how is it you go about cancelling them?

Dark Lord


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## Rainman (Feb 27, 2004)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Man, wished I'd of thought of that, back to the drawing board.   I didn't realize the discussion went from the BD/WD logic to the Universal Pattern.   So what are those dimensions again, Height,__,__, __, I can never remember?   And how is it you go about cancelling them?
> 
> Dark Lord



Okay- width, depth, obscurity...  Yes you did the universal pattern is placed over a black dot- or a white dot made into a patch that goes on the sleeve or your uniform... or do the stars and stripes obsure your vision?


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 27, 2004)

Oh, for cryin' out loud. The implications of black dot/white dot may be multiple,  but the basic idea's pretty straightforward. For a reason, too.

And "width, depth, obscurity?"

Folks, off the deep end in theory. And remember, me is somebody who went to a medium-highfaluting grad school and studied literary theory. All through the 1980s. When one of THOSE clowns tells you you're going off the deep end of theory...well, I'd listen.

As for silliness, well, seems to me that a good solid understanding of the essential goofiness of all human action is as important as a good solid understanding of our tragedy.

This kind of stuff is gonna drive me to using a psuedonym, I swear to Lord Dark Helmet.


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## Rainman (Feb 27, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Oh, for cryin' out loud. The implications of black dot/white dot may be multiple,  but the basic idea's pretty straightforward. For a reason, too.
> 
> And "width, depth, obscurity?"
> 
> ...



O c'mon now- this isn't even the technical stuff!   20 year old basix right out of II.  You don't think Ed Parker Sr. put his best material out for all to consume' do you?  

Obviously if you do not superimpose the universal pattern over the black dot you are using less of the concept.  There is no for crying out loud.  None. Zip. Zero. Zilch.  Only you know what your needs are.  If the concept ends where you say it does for specific reasons, that is what your students will think as well.  Absolutes are absolutely for stepping on and that is all they are for.  That is basically what makes Kenpo a living breathing art.  It only stagnates if you do.

I have already gone full circle about the goofiness of uniforms, the schools that KIAI, the white vs. black uniform,  the I hate these things, to the functionality of them.  They function well that is the reason for them.  You can grapple, pull, tug, fight, whatever and the uniforms stays in-tact.  Street cloths fall apart get shredded and so on.   Then add economics after the initial 60 bucks- and how long the thing lasts compared to your ripped up street cloths.

Goofiness- Sure but this is a place of the written word and since I am not a wordsmythe by trade it is not going to come across in this medium.  As I read the rank and file thread, most of the people on the kenpo fora are BB's.  Somewhere around that time- maybe 2nd black, the limits should be removed.   The fora should provide an excellent place for limitless exploration.  All this nay say stuff does not belong in black belt ranks for AK and my primary reasoning for this is- there is no action in cyberdom- it is all thought and the perfect place to explore and push beyond where you were yesturday.  That is if you so desire and only if you desire to keep exploring.  Different goals for different people.   

Exploration-  So now the USA is exploring mars.  Been around the world and been to the moon.  What happens when people stop exploration?   Simple.  They stop exploration!

Fee free to correct my syntac


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2004)

Rainman said:
			
		

> Okay- width, depth, obscurity...  Yes you did the universal pattern is placed over a black dot- or a white dot made into a patch that goes on the sleeve or your uniform... or do the stars and stripes obsure your vision?


Man its probably been about fifteen years since I have heard that analogy.
Sean


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## Bill Lear (Feb 28, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> I suppose you could limit the concept to what you see and what you don't see, but then its usefullness wains.
> sean



So... like... is there a white noise/black noise focus? Did I miss something here? Did the dots start making noises? Or are you implying something metaphysical here?

artyon:


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## Bill Lear (Feb 28, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I actually thought it was simpler than all this--"white dot," focus, you only see the center and nothing around that center, "black dot," focus, you don't see the center, and you only see everything around it.
> 
> And I consider myself uniquely qualified to say this, because I screwed the whole thing up (got it backwards) while I was teaching a group class, with the Tatums watching, of course. Sweet.
> 
> ...



Is there something wrong with dressing up and playing Hong Kong Phooey? Oh, I know... I forgot my DOTS! Damn!


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 28, 2004)

OK, first off, just because it's goofy doesn't mean it isn't lovable or serious.

Second off, nothing in my description of focus said you couldn't note the universal pattern, blocks and strikes, techniques, their endings, the forms and sets or for that matter Tweety Bird. The two concepts--the two images, in fact--are complementary, not mutually exclusive. I might as well say that in Rainman's last post, he's used the Pattern to forget about the mat. That would be ridiculous, since he wrote nothing about their relation.

Third, explore by all means. But never keep your mind so open that your brains fall out. It's called criticism, critique, discussion, dialogue, whatever---and none of this is helped by taking a word like, "exploration," and waving it around like a gun.

Just explain. Just explain how, say, the Universal Pattern fits in this particular discussion about focus. But I pretty much give up.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2004)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> So... like... is there a white noise/black noise focus? Did I miss something here? Did the dots start making noises? Or are you implying something metaphysical here?
> 
> artyon:


Well, hello. Long time no see.


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## Rainman (Feb 28, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> OK, first off, just because it's goofy doesn't mean it isn't lovable or serious.
> 
> Second off, nothing in my description of focus said you couldn't note the universal pattern, blocks and strikes, techniques, their endings, the forms and sets or for that matter Tweety Bird. The two concepts--the two images, in fact--are complementary, not mutually exclusive. I might as well say that in Rainman's last post, he's used the Pattern to forget about the mat. That would be ridiculous, since he wrote nothing about their relation.
> 
> ...



Of course I said how black dot focus and the universal pattern are related.  Not my fault you don't get it or you have not been taught the connection.  I showed the connection, gave you a hint, up to you to do the rest.   Try the pulling the trigger on the gun waving around, take the safety off first though.  

Never keep your mind so open your brains fall out...  Metaphorically speaking right?   Back to grade school semantics- tell me, have you ever taught an advanced class?   What are you going to tell them... circles are flat and techniques are the heart of the art?  

Look these concepts are tools.   This is a metaphyiscal dojo for some, a playground for others, a combination of each for others, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.  As Sean said- the analogies I am using are quite old.  That in and of itself should tell you something.  That something would be that the link I gave comes out of the sixties so just think what else has been thought of during the last 40 years...


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## rmcrobertson (Feb 28, 2004)

I find myself incapable of coming up with a useful response to whatever that last post was, so I think I'll just drop it.


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## True2Kenpo (Feb 29, 2004)

Sean,

I think Block Dot Focus is a concept that adds some definition to the idea of having complete awareness of your opponent while maintaining an emphasis on each target you are striking.

Being able to have that awareness of your opponent can help you plan your next actions and what targets to hit with the proper weapon as well.  It also places some importance on multiple striking and knowing one solid shot might not be enough.

Just my thoughts...  good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 29, 2004)

True2Kenpo said:
			
		

> Sean,
> 
> I think Block Dot Focus is a concept that adds some definition to the idea of having complete awareness of your opponent while maintaining an emphasis on each target you are striking.
> 
> ...


Excellent,
We teach that just as "Position" is your focus for a ground work situation, "Targets" are your focus for a striking situation. It is no accident that position and targets preceed weapon and angle in the "eight" considerations.
Sean


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## Michael Billings (Feb 29, 2004)

Although I know what Kenpoist train, especially in a self-defense or sparring situation, I think there is a place for both in the Art ... especially in the early part of training.  The white dot can teach us Kime, or a tightening of our focus.  This assists us in teaching students how to hit with our total explosive power at a specific target.  It is very, very Japanese or Zennish, IMHO.  

 I know that is what we trained in Shotokan and Taekwondo (back in the 60's and 70's) and was immediatly tied in with breaking drills.  It is one of the things Sigung LaBounty used to teach at camps in the early 80's, that served me in that it taught me to really hit hard ... of course, as my training has progressed, somewhere along the way, I learned to hit much harder while remaining relaxed, and in intermittent, explosive, bursts.  

 Once again, it is a good beginning and I feel both have their place.

 -Michael


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 29, 2004)

True2Kenpo said:
			
		

> Sean,
> 
> I think Block Dot Focus is a concept that adds some definition to the idea of having complete awareness of your opponent while maintaining an emphasis on each target you are striking.
> 
> ...


The force is strong with this one as well.   The white also represents environmental awareness and multiple opponents in any given scenario.
Dark Lord


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 1, 2004)

OK, now that the Kenpo community has enlightened me as to the value of Black Dot / White Dot...

Are there yin/yang spots in the Black and White dots?  Or, are they pure Black and pure White?  

Finally, are there any other colored dots that Mr. Parker may have perceived after the publication of Infinite Insights and revealed to any other seniors before his untimely passing?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 1, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> OK, now that the Kenpo community has enlightened me as to the value of Black Dot / White Dot...
> 
> Are there yin/yang spots in the Black and White dots?  Or, are they pure Black and pure White?
> 
> Finally, are there any other colored dots that Mr. Parker may have perceived after the publication of Infinite Insights and revealed to any other seniors before his untimely passing?


Actualy if you look reall close you can see the NIN Logo. What colors Black is the absense of color and white would be every color. Perhaps we are all but shades of grey in this practice.
Sean


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Mar 1, 2004)

Sean:  

By NIN, do you mean the music group Nine Inch Nails?

Also, I was daydreaming about work while driving in my car and rear-ended someone.  Would you say that this was insufficient Black Dot focus, or was my Black Dot simply too full of all the other stuff I had to do at work that day?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 1, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sean:
> 
> By NIN, do you mean the music group Nine Inch Nails?
> 
> Also, I was daydreaming about work while driving in my car and rear-ended someone.  Would you say that this was insufficient Black Dot focus, or was my Black Dot simply too full of all the other stuff I had to do at work that day?


I would call it a misguided BDF. It's autopilot. Some peoples auto pilot is better than others. The idea is to be aware and to take advantage of that awareness. You focussed a little to heavily on that daydream and payed the price. Like I said you don't learn anything in BDF unless you get tagged. "Tagged" in this case is smacking the back of a cop car.(one last edit) I think awareness is what distinguishes the term auto pilot from BDF.
Sean


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## kenpo_cory (Mar 1, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sean:
> 
> By NIN, do you mean the music group Nine Inch Nails?
> 
> Also, I was daydreaming about work while driving in my car and rear-ended someone.  Would you say that this was insufficient Black Dot focus, or was my Black Dot simply too full of all the other stuff I had to do at work that day?



Maybe you shouldve been day dreaming about the dot.  :lol:


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## dcence (Mar 2, 2004)

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I actually thought it was simpler than all this--"white dot," focus, you only see the center and nothing around that center, "black dot," focus, you don't see the center, and you only see everything around it.
> 
> And I consider myself uniquely qualified to say this, because I screwed the whole thing up (got it backwards) while I was teaching a group class, with the Tatums watching, of course. Sweet.
> 
> ...


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## Goldendragon7 (Mar 2, 2004)

> "white dot focus", you concentrate mainly on the center and little around that center,
> 
> "black dot focus", you see the center, but you also see everything around it.
> 
> ...



Yes, this is just another of the "Kenpo Tools" that is available to use when necessary.  
 :asian:


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## kenpoworks (Mar 5, 2004)

"JARGON" there seems to be alot of it flying around here.BD is a good training tool, a simple switch on fast mechanism, something to trigger you into a state of total awareness and readyness.banging away on a keyboard is a good example of WD.





			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Sean: I understand the basics of the concept. My skepticism is really about the value add of the vocabulary surrounding the concept. Most Kenpo vocabulary adds value by providing a better way to understand and apply Kenpo concepts. I believe that the vocabulary of Black Dot/White Dot adds no value.
> 
> For instance, using your example...you are able to use proper foot position because you practiced it and committed the proper position to muscle memory--not because you applied Black Dot / White Dot concept to your training or chose to apply it in a street situation.
> 
> When the vocabulary around the concept adds no value, it simply becomes jargon -- or "mumbo jumbo"


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