# Wing Chun Sparring



## Yoshiyahu (Jun 20, 2019)

What are your thoughts on the Wing chun sparring clip

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xTxyb58j4


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## drop bear (Jun 20, 2019)

So everything that worked was basically sports fighting. Straight punching, thai grappling, good ground control. 

What didn't work was the theoretical martial arty stuff.


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## Danny T (Jun 20, 2019)

Good fighting body mechanics are good fighting body mechanics. It doesn't matter what it is called.
Good punching is good punching, good grappling is good grappling.
What some call today call the 'thai clinch' I learned the same positioning and control in a completely different training system. 

Good fighting body mechanics are good fighting body mechanics.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jun 20, 2019)

So basically what your saying that the Wing Chun you learn doesn't have grappling or chin na or throws?
Your wing chun does not utilize knees and elbows?



drop bear said:


> So everything that worked was basically sports fighting. Straight punching, thai grappling, good ground control.
> 
> What didn't work was the theoretical martial arty stuff.


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## Headhunter (Jun 20, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> So basically what your saying that the Wing Chun you learn doesn't have grappling or chin na or throws?
> Your wing chun does not utilize knees and elbows?


He's not a wing chun person he's the ultimate Mma fanboy on this site


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## Yoshiyahu (Jun 21, 2019)

Ok so he doesn't really do wing chun is what your saying? got it!




Headhunter said:


> He's not a wing chun person he's the ultimate Mma fanboy on this site


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Ok so he doesn't really do wing chun is what your saying? got it!



Yeah. So like the guy in the video basically.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> So basically what your saying that the Wing Chun you learn doesn't have grappling or chin na or throws?
> Your wing chun does not utilize knees and elbows?



There are very few top level exponents of wing chun grappling, clinching and knees. 

Where as they are much more common and much better developed by other systems generally.


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> He's not a wing chun person he's the ultimate Mma fanboy on this site



Higher quality coaches, larger class timetables, better training partners, better functional gyms, access to multiple systems, access to more opportunities, a bigger and better social network and cheaper.

Cooler Gi's

As opposed to say Kempo where dedicating yourself to a style means training both nights.


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## Headhunter (Jun 21, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Higher quality coaches, larger class timetables, better training partners, better functional gyms, access to multiple systems, access to more opportunities, a bigger and better social network and cheaper.
> 
> Cooler Gi's
> 
> As opposed to say Kempo where dedicating yourself to a style means training both nights.


Like I said Mma fanboy


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## Yoshiyahu (Jun 22, 2019)

I disagree but i guess it depends on your lineage. At the end of the day, Kicks and knees are done from the bridge. So its harder for your opponent to react. Elbows are done in the clinch or as i say elbow range. When you get jammed to where you can't throw punches as easily you can elbow. There are five elbows. More if you count the different. In my lineage we fight in three ranges, Kick range, Punch range, elbow knee range. 



drop bear said:


> There are very few top level exponents of wing chun grappling, clinching and knees.
> 
> Where as they are much more common and much better developed by other systems generally.


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## jobo (Jun 22, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I disagree but i guess it depends on your lineage. At the end of the day, Kicks and knees are done from the bridge. So its harder for your opponent to react. Elbows are done in the clinch or as i say elbow range. When you get jammed to where you can't throw punches as easily you can elbow. There are five elbows. More if you count the different. In my lineage we fight in three ranges, Kick range, Punch range, elbow knee range.


elbows are a far more effective tool than a last resort when your jammed, deliberately closing range and taking your opponents punching and kicking options away and then elbowing them is a good strategy, elbows generally being a lot more effective than punches if you get body twist in to them, if you can't smash the cheek bone your not doing it right.

plus there are 4 ranges, the three you identified and  head butt range


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## geezer (Jun 22, 2019)

drop bear said:


> There are very few top level exponents of wing chun grappling, clinching and knees.
> Where as they are much more common and much better developed by other systems generally.



Yes, WC has suffered from overspecialization, isolation, and unrealistic training with compliant partners. Mark Phillips, who I only know from some Youtube clips seems to be one of a few who are trying to change that. Alan Orr is another. Personally, I see this is as a positive direction.


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## drop bear (Jun 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> Yes, WC has suffered from overspecialization, isolation, and unrealistic training with compliant partners. Mark Phillips, who I only know from some Youtube clips seems to be one of a few who are trying to change that. Alan Orr is another. Personally, I see this is as a positive direction.



Definitely. But with that becomes a mindset change. 

In that they need to seek out the talent to reinvigorate the style. So they stay relevant.


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## Danny T (Jun 23, 2019)

One of the problems with training an 'art' or a particular 'style' is the mistaken thought and desire to have a certain look in action. Let's look at other athletic endeavors (martial art is an athletic endeavor) does a person running in a soccer game run completely differently in a basketball game or a football game or parkour? No running is running though there are different styles of running some being far more efficient than others. Sometimes full all out speed is important and other times a more controlled and timed pace is best. There are times a straight direct sprint is the need and other times having the ability to explosively start, stop, re-start or turn in a different direction is required. However it is all running. A martial art is to be used to train, practice, and instill skills that can be used when needed. Train for function not for a particular look.


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## jobo (Jun 23, 2019)

Danny T said:


> One of the problems with training an 'art' or a particular 'style' is the mistaken thought and desire to have a certain look in action. Let's look at other athletic endeavors (martial art is an athletic endeavor) does a person running in a soccer game run completely differently in a basketball game or a football game or parkour? No running is running though there are different styles of running some being far more efficient than others. Sometimes full all out speed is important and other times a more controlled and timed pace is best. There are times a straight direct sprint is the need and other times having the ability to explosively start, stop, re-start or turn in a different direction is required. However it is all running. A martial art is to be used to train, practice, and instill skills that can be used when needed. Train for function not for a particular look.


yes, if you study the running styles there are marked differences between different sports, sprint is indeed a sprint, but sprints over 20 yards have a markedly different pattern to sprints over 90 yards, sprinting controlling a ball with your feet is completely different to controlling a ball with your hand


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 24, 2019)

Elbows are a great tool. Not a last resort perse, Nor is a kick necessarily a first resort. I will explain. You have three ranges. Kick range, Punch and low kick range, Knee and elbow range. Yes body or waist twist behind a punch or elbow is very effective. Especially if you can connect to weak point on head. If i can headbutt you i can elbow you. Any way i digress. We can use elbows and shoulders too. How ever the system to utilize them is way different from a muay thai elbow to a WC elbow. With Wing i want to set most of attacks up from controlling your bridge ie punches and kicks. Elbows are good once i gain entry to your gates and walked in the door. Then i can finish you with and elbow and knees. How ever if we are sport fighting then i will be disqualified for that. 



jobo said:


> elbows are a far more effective tool than a last resort when your jammed, deliberately closing range and taking your opponents punching and kicking options away and then elbowing them is a good strategy, elbows generally being a lot more effective than punches if you get body twist in to them, if you can't smash the cheek bone your not doing it right.
> 
> plus there are 4 ranges, the three you identified and  head butt range





Danny T said:


> One of the problems with training an 'art' or a particular 'style' is the mistaken thought and desire to have a certain look in action. Let's look at other athletic endeavors (martial art is an athletic endeavor) does a person running in a soccer game run completely differently in a basketball game or a football game or parkour? No running is running though there are different styles of running some being far more efficient than others. Sometimes full all out speed is important and other times a more controlled and timed pace is best. There are times a straight direct sprint is the need and other times having the ability to explosively start, stop, re-start or turn in a different direction is required. However it is all running. A martial art is to be used to train, practice, and instill skills that can be used when needed. Train for function not for a particular look.



I agree in part. You can train in function all you want. But with out sparring non-wing chun guys your art is useless. You need to mix it up with alot of different people who train different arts and people who have formal training at all. You should be familiar with martial artist and street fighters sparring. This is the key to making your WC work. Most Chinese Martial artist never fight or spar with people and when they finally do fight this is how they look!


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## Danny T (Aug 24, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Elbows are a great tool. Not a last resort perse, Nor is a kick necessarily a first resort. I will explain. You have three ranges. Kick range, Punch and low kick range, Knee and elbow range. Yes body or waist twist behind a punch or elbow is very effective. Especially if you can connect to weak point on head. If i can headbutt you i can elbow you. Any way i digress. We can use elbows and shoulders too. How ever the system to utilize them is way different from a muay thai elbow to a WC elbow. With Wing i want to set most of attacks up from controlling your bridge ie punches and kicks. Elbows are good once i gain entry to your gates and walked in the door. Then i can finish you with and elbow and knees. How ever if we are sport fighting then i will be disqualified for that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you note I stated; "One of the problems..."

I am a strong proponent of sparring...some light technical, some with speed, some hard.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 24, 2019)

Right when i was young, the Key was sparring, We did alot of it. Coming up. But mostly with People who didn't do WC from Muay Thai guys, To TKD and Karate Guys, And Street fighters. This builds confidence, understanding and makes you more fluid with your WC when to root, when to be light, when to deflect and kick when to intercept while punching. When to trap,lock, and control when to sweep. 




Danny T said:


> Did you note I stated; "One of the problems..."
> 
> I am a strong proponent of sparring...some light technical, some with speed, some hard.


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## Danny T (Aug 24, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Right when i was young, the Key was sparring, We did alot of it. Coming up. But mostly with People who didn't do WC from Muay Thai guys, To TKD and Karate Guys, And Street fighters. This builds confidence, understanding and makes you more fluid with your WC when to root, when to be light, when to deflect and kick when to intercept while punching. When to trap,lock, and control when to sweep.


Yeap.
We are a multisystem facility with not only WC but boxing, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, Submission Wrestling, BJJ, & we have amateur and pro fighters.
Our wc participants have a host of sparring partners.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> So basically what your saying that the Wing Chun you learn doesn't have grappling or chin na or throws?
> Your wing chun does not utilize knees and elbows?





Yoshiyahu said:


> Wing Chun is a complete STAND UP Fighting system.


You must belong to the "My MA system is complete" group. I belong to the "No MA system is complete" group. IMO, if a true complete system ever exists on this planet, the term MMA will never be created.

Have we had so many this kind of discussion in this forum before?

A: I have never learned any throwing skill from my WC teacher.
B: My WC teacher taught me how to punch, kick, lock, and throw. You just need to find a better WC teacher.
A:


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Yeap.
> We are a multisystem facility with not only WC but boxing, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, Submission Wrestling, BJJ, & we have amateur and pro fighters.
> Our wc participants have a host of sparring partners.


Danny, every time you list the arts represented there, it renews my desire to visit. That sounds like a profoundly interesting and fun place to train.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You must belong to the "My MA system is complete" group. I belong to the "No MA system is complete" group. IMO, if a true complete system ever exists on this planet, the term MMA will never be created.
> 
> Have we had so many this kind of discussion in this forum before?
> 
> ...


It really depends how you define both "complete" and "system". I'd argue many MMA gyms teach a complete system. And there are plenty of instructors out there who (like most MMA folks) have some competency on the ground, in standing grappling, and with striking. If they teach their system, it's complete.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It really depends how you define both "complete" and "system". I'd argue many MMA gyms teach a complete system. And there are plenty of instructors out there who (like most MMA folks) have some competency on the ground, in standing grappling, and with striking. If they teach their system, it's complete.


Again, you are talking about a cross trained MA instructor.

All students who graduated from the Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1933) had to train 

- long fist,
- Baji,
- Taiji,
- XingYi,
- Bagus,
- Shuai Chiao (Chinese wrestling),
- boxing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, you are talking about a cross trained MA instructor.
> 
> All students who graduated from the Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1933) had to train
> 
> ...


Okay, so that was back in the 20's and 30's. Are you saying the students of those folks can't have created arts that combined the disciplines? At what point does it stop being "cross training" and actually become a system?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 24, 2019)

“Complete” is a meaningless term.


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## Danny T (Aug 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Danny, every time you list the arts represented there, it renews my desire to visit. That sounds like a profoundly interesting and fun place to train.


Thank you. We have a lot of fun and you are welcome any time.


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## Danny T (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Again, you are talking about a cross trained MA instructor.
> 
> All students who graduated from the Central Guoshu Institute (1928 - 1933) had to train
> 
> ...


What is the difference in 'cross training' and 'training'?
I go to the school and do some strength training in connection with our class. The next day I go to gym and do the same strength type training...is that cross training?
I have a muay thai instructor come in to do some training with our wing chun class. He covers some MT tactics and we work our wc against that...is that cross training? A high level wc practitioner goes to that same MT instructor to get more in-depth understanding of MT tactics to strengthen his wc vs a MT practitioner is that cross training?
Or, is it just training?
I think 'cross training' is a non thing. Is training to understand a possible opponent's tactics and strategies is simply good smart training.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 25, 2019)

Now thats awesome.



Danny T said:


> Yeap.
> We are a multisystem facility with not only WC but boxing, Muay Thai, Pekiti-Tirsia, Submission Wrestling, BJJ, & we have amateur and pro fighters.
> Our wc participants have a host of sparring partners.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2019)

Danny T said:


> I have a muay thai instructor come in to do some training with our wing chun class.


What you are talking about is cross training.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What you are talking about is cross training.



I think cross sparring is better than cross training.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What you are talking about is cross training.


My question still stands: when does it cease to be cross-training, and become a system? I definitely cross-trained. My students will get my system without needing to cross-train. Same can be true of someone in MMA who goes on to teach what they know as their own MMA system. Their students won't need to study multiple systems to get all those components, because the instructor created a single system that has them all.


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## Danny T (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What you are talking about is cross training.


Nah...it just a greater depth of good training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> My question still stands: when does it cease to be cross-training, and become a system?


It depends on when did the cross training.

If your teacher is a

- 100% pure style person - you have to do cross training yourself. It's you who starts the new system.
- cross trained person - your teacher had done cross training for you. It's your teacher who starts the new system.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 25, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It depends on when did the cross training.
> 
> If your teacher is a
> 
> ...



But if you don't spar people of different disciplines then your cross training is more theoretical conditioning with out an actual expression.


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## Yoshiyahu (Aug 25, 2019)

I have trained Judo, Kick Boxing and Akidio when i was a kid. My Sifu already knew throws, Joink locks, and other things when he taught us the Wing Chun. Many things in the forms and training teach throws. But i will say My sifu was big proponent of cross training. But this whole idea of cross training is nonsense. Because WC is a SYSTEM of fighting. It is a complete Stand Up fighting system. Notice i didnt say ground fighting. If you wrestle or do BJJ you will gain great ground skills. On the ground its a different game and the structure different. But Chinese Shujiao and Chin Na should be apart of WC if its not. I suggest training with people who know it and spar with them to learn how to use it and how to counter it. 

Sparring is the real cross training.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> You must belong to the "My MA system is complete" group. I belong to the "No MA system is complete" group. IMO, if a true complete system ever exists on this planet, the term MMA will never be created.
> 
> Have we had so many this kind of discussion in this forum before?
> 
> ...


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## Martial D (Aug 26, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Ok so he doesn't really do wing chun is what your saying? got it!


He doesn't, but I do. Been doing WC since the late 90s, my sifu learned from Sam Kwok. So, I've had a couple of decades added to a few years to consider this.

He's right.

Fundamentals are fundamentals. Distance, timing, execution. As a WC guy you will get outstruck by a boxer or kickboxer, outgrappled by a wrestler or jui jitsu man. Your footwork/mobility will be a few beats behind the guys that train with contact.

Sometimes you will see a WC guy with decent fundamentals, because I don't think the system itself is necessarily the problem.

I mean, if boxers and kickboxers only did slow motion synchronized solo techniques with the class and BJJ guys only talked theory and rolled without resistance, they wouldn't be very good either.

Training>system.


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## Topdots (Aug 31, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Most Chinese Martial artist never fight or spar with people and when they finally do fight this is how they look!



Those people are amateurs. Watch this from the British Colony of China instead. The Britons hold a lot of fighting tournaments in Hong Kong pitting style vs style all the time. This video clip is hard to find. Because you have to scroll down a lot to the last page. Wing Chun vs Muay Thai in the British Chinese colony of Hong Kong.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2019)

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are your thoughts on the Wing chun sparring clip
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xTxyb58j4



I used to watch his old videos and what you are looking at now is an evolution of his perception of fighting.  The way he did his low kicks then is not how he does the same low kick.  It's really difficult to walk through a low kick when it's done correctly

I can't tell if he abandoned alot of his wing chun.  I just know that it doesn't look like he's doing much of it.  But I don't train wing chun so I'm not the best one to point that out.  I've seen Wing Chun applied correctly and it doesn't look like that. 

To be honest maybe it wasn't his intent when making the video.  Maybe he's trying to attract MMA fighters.  If that's the case the it's going to be pieces of Wing Chun mixed with some other stuff.


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## geezer (Sep 3, 2019)

Topdots said:


> Those people are amateurs. Watch this from the British Colony of China instead. *The Britons hold a lot of fighting tournaments* in Hong Kong pitting style vs style all the time. This video clip is hard to find. Because you have to scroll down a lot to the last page. Wing Chun vs Muay Thai in the British Chinese colony of Hong Kong.



I'm confused. You are writing in the _present _tense, i.e. as though this is happening right now. There hasn't been a British colony of Hong Kong since the British returned control of Hong Kong back to the Beijing government of China in 1997.

Also, there haven't been any "Britons" around since the Middle Ages, unless you mean their descendants, the Welsh. Really, even I know this and I'm a damned Yank. Where's _Tez _when you need her!


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## MFC__2020 (Dec 3, 2020)

I think the sparring clip has a bunch of MMA sparring added to it...but specifically the Wing Chun sparring(which I am assuming is the older fuzzy footage...it looks like the curriculums that these people learned paid off.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 3, 2020)

Yoshiyahu said:


> What are your thoughts on the Wing chun sparring clip
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3xTxyb58j4


I've seen his earlier videos when he used to wear the silk kung fu outfits and try to take "honorable"   He has changed a lot since then and as adopted a lot of things outside of Wing Chun.  I tried to find one of his old videos so you can see just how much he changed but I think he took it those down.  He completely gave up the Wing Chun stance that he used to have.and takes on a more common fighting stance.


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## Poppity (Dec 4, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've seen his earlier videos when he used to wear the silk kung fu outfits and try to take "honorable"   He has changed a lot since then and as adopted a lot of things outside of Wing Chun.  I tried to find one of his old videos so you can see just how much he changed but I think he took it those down.  He completely gave up the Wing Chun stance that he used to have.and takes on a more common fighting stance.



I think you might be thinking of someone else. Even in the older videos with James Sinclair, Dr. Mark Phillips wasn't wearing silk and promoting airs and graces.

The footwork really hasn't changed much.


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## JowGaWolf (Dec 4, 2020)

Snark said:


> I think you might be thinking of someone else. Even in the older videos with James Sinclair, Dr. Mark Phillips wasn't wearing silk and promoting airs and graces.
> 
> The footwork really hasn't changed much.


yeah this is the guy I was thinking of


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## Poppity (Dec 4, 2020)

JowGaWolf said:


> yeah this is the guy I was thinking of



Thats a pretty similar logo... I know there is only do many iterations of a plum flower but even so.


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## geezer (Dec 7, 2020)

Snark said:


> Thats a pretty similar logo... I know there is only do many iterations of a plum flower but even so.



No, ...this logo is a freakin´ *snowflake *...which is kinda funny considering the modern usage of that term!


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## Poppity (Dec 8, 2020)

geezer said:


> No, ...this logo is a freakin´ *snowflake *...which is kinda funny considering the modern usage of that term!


Your quite right. Hmmm I wonder what a snowflake represents maybe it's for mo or the touchy feely aspect.


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## geezer (Dec 8, 2020)

Snark said:


> Your quite right. Hmmm I wonder what a snowflake represents maybe it's for mo or the touchy feely aspect.



....or the delicate and sensitive nature of his WC. Mark Philips on the other hand doesn't seem so "snowflakey".


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## Poppity (Dec 8, 2020)

geezer said:


> ....or the delicate and sensitive nature of his WC. Mark Philips on the other hand doesn't seem so "snowflakey".



Quite true. I met mark Philips at a dragon boat festival. we were doing a wing chun demo as was his school, very nice, genuine and stand up guy. Exceptionally tall.

One of the other students/sihing trained at his school for a bit, apparently very fancy set up with a range of different martial arts to learn, principally wing chun and bjj though.

I met Master Wong at the same dragon boat venue on a separate occasion.


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