# Un-freakin-believable



## Xue Sheng (Jun 3, 2010)

Im am NOT happy :angry:

A group in my area that I had such high hopes for as a CMA school first went to teaching lite taiji to make money, which to be honest does not upset me all that much to each his own and if you have a martial arts business you got to do what you got to do. As my wife has told me time and time again I would make no money teaching Martial Arts because I am to serious

But now this just pisses me off.

They now teach Yang 108 long formwhich they did not know beforehow did they learn itwell you see a while back a few of its members showed up and my sifus taiji school and went through the basic class which gave them the form with a little refinement and now WHADAYA KNOW!!! They are teaching Traditional Yang style.

I AM going to call them on this and if one and I mean just one claim a lineage to my sifu there will be hell to pay and they will be DAMN lucky this is not China.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 3, 2010)

Unless you had them sign contracts in blood, you really have no claim to that information once you put it out there for public consumptiion. I was in a FT Knox TKD thing once, and the teacher explained how terrible it was that a bunch of Americans learned TKD from a legit Korean School, and then opened up a school down the road, which ended in the Master losing his business. Tragic as it may have sounded to them, I didn't see the conflict. Its a free country. Why shouldn't a bunch of American's start and opperate a TKD school or any other system?
Sean


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## mograph (Jun 3, 2010)

Shall we now call you "Xue Sheng Quixote"?  With respect XS, this is tilting at windmills. It's happened before and it'll happen again. 

I personally am struggling with my indignation over a group that does "Tai Chi lite", yet some of its members believe that their style is superior to all other styles of Tai Chi because "it's not martial". Eventually it gets down to the fact that I'm angry that they _call_ it "tai chi", when it's not "tai chi". Once I think about it, I feel rather silly that I'm getting angry over words. 

Look at it this way: what would be the "taijiquan" response to this kind of attack on you? Is it in fact an attack on you at all? What would an old, wise sifu say?

I think you should teach, though. There _is_ room for quality in this world.


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## clfsean (Jun 3, 2010)

Taiji vs Tai Cheeeese... it'll pass, just like cheese


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## Ken Morgan (Jun 3, 2010)

Years ago there was a half assed Ninja group practicing in the same common area as us. Sensei devised a new sword drill for us, to loosen up our shoulder muscles, sink into the cuts, a general all round good warm up set of exercises. Think we did it that one time. Months later during a demo in front of hundreds of people, the Ninja group comes out and starts doing exactly our warmup group of movements as part of their demo. WTF???? Sensei had a laugh, whatever, there is nothing you can do about it.


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## Kyosanim (Jun 3, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Im am NOT happy :angry:
> 
> A group in my area that I had such high hopes for as a CMA school first went to teaching lite taiji to make money, which to be honest does not upset me all that much to each his own and if you have a martial arts business you got to do what you got to do. As my wife has told me time and time again I would make no money teaching Martial Arts because I am to serious
> 
> ...




I can see where your mad and it is somewhat misleading of them, but there probably is not a lot you can do unless he has a no compete clause in his contract for classes. Personally I think that since you feel so strongly about it
you should teach. Who cares if you make money at it? That is only an issue if you care about making money at it. You don't need a mat, bags, or even uniforms. All you need is people who want to learn. When I work out now its in the grass. When I teach its outside and I don't get paid for it. I just do it because I love it, and who cares if the people who want to learn cant afford to pay for it. I know I have been in the same shoes before. Perhaps you should teach simply because it is the right thing to do. Perhaps you should teach simply because you love it. Maybe just maybe you would get further than you think. I know a guy who does it this way and only has one accomplished student that stuck with him, but the guy is amazing and it was well worth his time to teach him.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 3, 2010)

Sounds to me like the real issue is if there is a claim made to actual lineage thru Xue's teacher.  

They can do what they want, nobody can stop them.  But if they make the claim that they are someone's student, and that someone has never claimed him as his student, regardless of a brief attendance at a class or two, then it's a false claim.

Many people claim, "so-and-so was my teacher".  But does So-and-So claim you as his student?

on a humorous note, a friend of mine told me of something that happened years ago around my neck of the woods.  Seems there was an annoying guy hanging around the school, and he wouldn't go away.  So the sifu made up a nonsense form, based primarily on some stuff he took from an old Jackie Chan movie, and taught it to the guy, as a private joke.  Eventually the guy wanders off and doesn't come back anymore.

Years go by, and they discover that this annoying guy opened his own school, and is teaching his own students.  And he's teaching this made-up form that he learned years earlier, and it's developed some kind of mystical history behind it.  Seems the joke took on a life of its own...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 3, 2010)

I think Xue's issue probably comes down to the fact that these people have little or no depth to their training in that form. So how could they be effective or efficient at teaching it?


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## kaizasosei (Jun 4, 2010)

Typical. Good thing one freely can pick who or what one chooses to learn from.  
I would think it is no cause for concern as teaching is such a big responsibility or role in life that such people are not to be envied or feared.

We are all hanging onto the links of some kind of chain of successive revelations so that everyone learns at their own pace in their own way.  Just that some people make more of an *** out of themselves than others. 

j


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## Bruno@MT (Jun 4, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Unless you had them sign contracts in blood, you really have no claim to that information once you put it out there for public consumptiion. I was in a FT Knox TKD thing once, and the teacher explained how terrible it was that a bunch of Americans learned TKD from a legit Korean School, and then opened up a school down the road, which ended in the Master losing his business. Tragic as it may have sounded to them, I didn't see the conflict. Its a free country. Why shouldn't a bunch of American's start and opperate a TKD school or any other system?
> Sean



This is east vs west. For example, in Japanese traditional arts, you can learn as much as you can, but no matter what happens, if you do not have a teaching license, then you have no permission to pass on what you've learned. Whether you leave or not has no importance.

In our western thinking, this is of course not true. We rely on contracts and signed agreements, not on tradition. Still, I think it is a low thing to behave like this. Becoming a member of a traditional dojo means accepting the customs as well as the techniques. Then to turn around and teach those techniques without paying heed to the customs is hypocritical imo.

Perhaps it's not legally objectionable, but it is certainly 'not done'.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 4, 2010)

I should explain a couple of things.

First this has absolutely nothing to do with money

Second this has nothing to do with the opening of another Yang Taiji school

Third it has absolutely nothing to do with the teaching of bad taijiquan (depending on the what lineage they claim)

There is a possibility that they learned the form from my first Sifu, who learned if from a Video or they may have learned it from a video themselves, if this is the case, I don&#8217;t care what they do. I do know several peole from this group trained with my sifu for the beginner class only and then vanished and now they teach the Yang Long form... kind of makes me think.

Neither my Sifu nor I cares if a group of people show up and open 25 Yang Taijiquan schools right around where he is teaching nor would I care if there were 25 Taijiquan schools anywhere near anyplace I teach. Making money at teaching Taiji is not an issue for my Sifu and it is not one for me. I know the facts, my wife is right; I am too serious about it and I will not let people get by with doing a crappy form if they are capable of doing it properly. If they are not capable of doing it properly that is different and there are ways around that.

Once I get my knee working and get back to train with my Sifu for 6 months or so I may start teaching again. But right now I can&#8217;t even do the form due to my knee. And once I can I need to help my Sifu if his next beginner class is as big as the last one. He is not requiring that I do this but I like to help out when I can.



Flying Crane said:


> Sounds to me like the real issue is if there is a claim made to actual lineage thru Xue's teacher.
> 
> They can do what they want, nobody can stop them. But if they make the claim that they are someone's student, and that someone has never claimed him as his student, regardless of a brief attendance at a class or two, then it's a false claim.


 
EXACTLY!!!

If they teach Yang Taijiquan, frankly I don&#8217;t care. But if they are claiming a lineage to my Sifu and thereby a lineage to Tung Ying Chieh and Yang Chengfu I have a BIG problem with that. 




Flying Crane said:


> Many people claim, "so-and-so was my teacher". But does So-and-So claim you as his student?


 
Again..exactly.

This happened before; someone in my area opened up a taijiquan school and called it the Yang Chengfu school of Tai Chi. This person did exactly the same thing, went to the beginner class, learned the long form and left. Then opened a school named it and claimed a lineage from my Sifu. My Sifu actually went to visit them and the Yang Chengfu school of Tai Chi changed its name and stopped making false claims. As commercial as the current Yang family is today they still only allow certain people to give permission to use the name of Yang Chengfu and the only person in this are is my Sifu and he did not give any such permission nor except them as a student. 

If I find they are claiming a lineage to my Sifu then we have a problem and it will be corrected. 

My first Sifu claimed a lineage to the Chen family and Chen Zhenglei paid him a visit and told him to stop. All I can say about the situation I am currently in is the same thing Chen Sifu said about my first Sifu&#8230;.this is America so what can you really do&#8230;if this were China&#8230;things would be very different :EG:

However if they are using my Sifu&#8217;s name without his permission there are things he can do, he has been in the USA a very long time and knows the law.




Flying Crane said:


> on a humorous note, a friend of mine told me of something that happened years ago around my neck of the woods. Seems there was an annoying guy hanging around the school, and he wouldn't go away. So the Sifu made up a nonsense form, based primarily on some stuff he took from an old Jackie Chan movie, and taught it to the guy, as a private joke. Eventually the guy wanders off and doesn't come back anymore.
> 
> Years go by, and they discover that this annoying guy opened his own school, and is teaching his own students. And he's teaching this made-up form that he learned years earlier, and it's developed some kind of mystical history behind it. Seems the joke took on a life of its own...


 
Tung Hu Ling did this as well and there is a rather well known Yang Taijiquan guy who has a legitimate lineage to Yang Shou Zhong that also teaches a form that he calls the Tung Fast form which his teacher learned from Tung Hu Ling&#8230;guess who his teacher was  

He does the form, he teaches the form but it is not a Tung Fast form&#8230;it looks more like a short version of the long form speeded up. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think Xue's issue probably comes down to the fact that these people have little or no depth to their training in that form. So how could they be effective or efficient at teaching it?


 
If they are claiming a lineage to my Sifu this is a very big issue.


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## clfsean (Jun 4, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> If they are claiming a lineage to my Sifu this is a very big issue.



That part I definitely agree with. If not, bugger 'em. If they are, they need to set things straight as that will reflect on your teacher adversely if they are exercising the powers of mass-suckage.


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## East Winds (Jun 4, 2010)

I have a great deal of sympathy with Xui Sheng on this!! The big problem is that beginning students don't know that they are being taught crap!! I had a Karate guy came to my classes for 6 weeks, left my school and set up his own "Tai Chi" school. He is now teaching Aqua Tai Chi (whatever the hell that is). I don't know whether he claims any lineage or not, but his website lists membership of many ficticious organisations and certification from organisations that do not exist. Now that to me is fraud no matter what way you look at it. It is these guys that get the internal arts a bad name. I say go for it Xue Sheng. We need to expose these guys for the frauds they are.

Very best wishes


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## tellner (Jun 4, 2010)

clfsean said:


> That part I definitely agree with. If not, bugger 'em.



Uhhh, in Taiji terms that's "Invite them to perform the maneuver Sum Dum Goy accommodates the Great Xiang Chang"


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> This is east vs west. For example, in Japanese traditional arts, you can learn as much as you can, but no matter what happens, if you do not have a teaching license, then you have no permission to pass on what you've learned. Whether you leave or not has no importance.
> 
> In our western thinking, this is of course not true. We rely on contracts and signed agreements, not on tradition. Still, I think it is a low thing to behave like this. Becoming a member of a traditional dojo means accepting the customs as well as the techniques. Then to turn around and teach those techniques without paying heed to the customs is hypocritical imo.
> 
> Perhaps it's not legally objectionable, but it is certainly 'not done'.


I'll bet permission is ignored and money changes hands anyway, as we westernize the East.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds to me like the real issue is if there is a claim made to actual lineage thru Xue's teacher.
> 
> They can do what they want, nobody can stop them. But if they make the claim that they are someone's student, and that someone has never claimed him as his student, regardless of a brief attendance at a class or two, then it's a false claim.
> 
> ...


Jackie Chan Kicks butt; so, I imagine the form was usefull.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 4, 2010)

East Winds said:


> I have a great deal of sympathy with Xui Sheng on this!! The big problem is that beginning students don't know that they are being taught crap!! I had a Karate guy came to my classes for 6 weeks, left my school and set up his own "Tai Chi" school. He is now teaching Aqua Tai Chi (whatever the hell that is). I don't know whether he claims any lineage or not, but his website lists membership of many ficticious organisations and certification from organisations that do not exist. Now that to me is fraud no matter what way you look at it. It is these guys that get the internal arts a bad name. I say go for it Xue Sheng. We need to expose these guys for the frauds they are.
> 
> Very best wishes


He has already *gone for it* by putting it out on this forum. That about the only thing he can do other than say what he feels to whomever asks.
Sean


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## mograph (Jun 4, 2010)

If this group is claiming lineage, then Xue Sheng has described an appropriate course of action, which would be for his Sifu to visit the school and basically embarrass them.

But with respect, my concern is with Xue Sheng's state of mind. Anger is not the Way, and I believe that Xue Sheng can rise above it. Isn't this what martial arts teaches us?

Xue Sheng, if I misread your post, then I apologize.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 4, 2010)

Touch Of Death said:


> Jackie Chan Kicks butt; so, I imagine the form was usefull.
> Sean



it made them laugh all the way down the street.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2010)

mograph said:


> But with respect, my concern is with Xue Sheng's state of mind. Anger is not the Way, and I believe that Xue Sheng can rise above it. Isn't this what martial arts teaches us?
> 
> Xue Sheng, if I misread your post, then I apologize.


 
No apology necessary, I was angry, but not just at the possibility of a falsely claimed lineage but in addition I have helped them out several times over the years and some of that was with free translation services so they could actually have the seminars they wanted and I was rather upset that there was a possibility that they decided to claim a false lineage to my sifu to teach a class after he taught them only a little bit and the assistance I have given them over the years. 

However there was never any possibility of me going to their school and kicking butt. The reference to China does make that a possibility, but it first makes it a, go talk to them and ask them nicely to stop making such claims as well as take out some sort of add that says they were mistaken. If that fails then show up at the school in front of all and denounce them as frauds in front of all&#8230;.then a fight may break out, but generally it does not get that far these days. Yao did that to someone in Beijing making false claims to being the lineage holder of Wang Xiangzhai and Yang Zhenduo also made a public statement against someone that claimed a false lineage to his family and another Qigong sifu made several statements about a woman that made false claims that she learned from him. There are ways to embarrass the claim out of them if necessary prior to beating it out of them.. 

However I have got an answer to my question; or possibly the answer they thought I wanted to hear, but they are not claiming any lineage to my sifu&#8230; they are however claiming lineage to 2 others, in China, that I am also fairly sure are false, but that is not my concern. I am only concerned where it would apply to my sifu.

But I suspect they may not be aware that the claims they are making are false, or maybe they don&#8217;t want to know it is false, thanks to my (our) first sifu and his propensity to make false lineage claims based on learning from that persons video.


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## clfsean (Jun 7, 2010)

Public denunciation is always a good move. Trick is will it matter to anybody?? And unfortunately in today's society, you could possibly be held at fault for loss of business in court if it did work.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 7, 2010)

clfsean said:


> Public denunciation is always a good move. Trick is will it matter to anybody?? And unfortunately in today's society, you could possibly be held at fault for loss of business in court if it did work.


 
Ahh but in todays society in China it works just fine..... and like I said...if this were China things would be different.... but this is not China...

If I had found they were making a false claim to my sifu I would have let them know I knew it  was fale and the let my sifu know what was going on and the rest would be up to him. As for what I would do, no longer give them any assistance what-so-ever, as well as stop all referrals to their school... those by the way...have stopped long before this... I just don't like the way their school is going... but that is a personal opinion and nothing more.


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## clfsean (Jun 7, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Ahh but in todays society in China it works just fine..... and like I said...if this were China things would be different.... but this is not China...



Quite true... gong sau is alive & well in China. 



Xue Sheng said:


> If I had found they were making a false claim to my sifu I would have let them know I knew it  was fale and the let my sifu know what was going on and the rest would be up to him. As for what I would do, no longer give them any assistance what-so-ever, as well as stop all referrals to their school... those by the way...have stopped long before this... I just don't like the way their school is going... but that is a personal opinion and nothing more.



Best thing you can do...


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## Rabu (Jun 14, 2010)

It sounds like business as usual in the martial ats world Xue Sheng.  not that I approve, but really, its totally normal.

I found a number of people on youtube doing kempo using Northern Shaolin (Gu Ruzhong lineage) open hand and weapons forms as part of their curriculum.   From what I saw, it was video kung fu.  The errors placed into the forms to mark them were intact. 

Kind of crappy, but totally normal in the US and even in china from what I have heard.  Claim a false lineage or made up lineage, perhaps with flying dwarves or Guan yu as a founder and open up a school with the material you semi learned from several teachers who would not acknowledge you.

Nothing new under the sun.

Example:  An american Kempo guy goes from being a proud American kempo guy to a proud Japanese Kempo guy.  The down time between going from an american fusion kempo to traditional Japanese style was however long it took for the ink to dry on the certificate once the style change was complete and the school sign changed.  

The claim seems to be 3 - 5 years to black belt with up to 7 years between grades.  So you go from being a X degree black belt in one system and KEEP YOUR RANK in a new system.   How long did it take for the ink to dry? 10 years like the expectation above?  I think not!

Completely common.  Sad, and completely common.

The teacher who is not also a student is neither.  Continuing education is the only way to improve.

Regards,

Rob


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2010)

True, nothing new



Rabu said:


> Kind of crappy, but totally normal in the US and even in china from what I have heard. Claim a false lineage or made up lineage, perhaps with flying dwarves or Guan yu as a founder and open up a school with the material you semi learned from several teachers who would not acknowledge you.


 
However the difference here was not teaching bad Taiji but the possibility of claiming lineage to a sifu that did not approve such claim. There are a lot of bad taiji schools, sadly, they are becoming one of them, but that is really not my issue.

As to claims like this in China; It can and does happen from time to time but you best not let that sifu or any of his/her serious students find out. As I said Yao (Yiquan) in Beijing put a stop to a false claim to Wang Xiangzhai. Yang Zhenduo put a stop to when someone claiming lineage and familial ties to the Yang family in the US publicized said claim (in Tai Chi Magazine), both of which were easily show to be false and there was Qigong master that has made it clear that a Chinese woman teaching here in the US, claiming to be his student, is not his, nor ever was, his student.

And A Chen family member made it clear to my first sifu that he needed to stop making claims to lineage to the Chen family but that Chen family member also told me that this is America so there is not much I can do, if it were China he could and would put a stop to it. Either publically or physically.

As to the other false claims there are several made historically to gain legitimacy to a style or to break form a teacher or as a political protest against the current ruler. Examples would be claims like those made to real and, and some fictional, people like Zhang Sanfeng, Yue Fei, Guan Yu.

And of course you get the glowing cave, writings on the wall of a cave, snake vs. bird fights, etc.

However in this case the claim was not made to my sifu, who does consider me his student, it was made to 2 other people that likely have no clue as to any of it. But those claims are not my concern and lucky for them those 2 gentlemen (both in China) have no students in my area. 

If I had discovered that they were making a false claim of lineage to my sifu I would have let him know and from that point it would have been up to him to decide what to do


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## Rabu (Jun 14, 2010)

That shows you to have better character than the people who might make false claims.  Something I would assume from your posts and our exchanges.  Much respect for keeping the values high!

Stay true to yourself and your art.  I have done and will do the same as you outlined above.

The only problem is....despite my large feet, there is simply too much hiney to kick for any one lifetime.

Best regards,

Rob


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 14, 2010)

Rabu said:


> That shows you to have better character than the people who might make false claims. Something I would assume from your posts and our exchanges. Much respect for keeping the values high!
> 
> Stay true to yourself and your art. I have done and will do the same as you outlined above.
> 
> ...


 
Since I walk around on a pair of 14 EEE feet myself, I know what you are talking about 

And what else can I say but my wife tells me; I am martial arts crazy, to serious about marital arts, and more Chinese than she is


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