# no kata



## chiro4 (Sep 19, 2004)

I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area.  This way I can make a choice before signing up.


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## chinto01 (Sep 20, 2004)

Chiro04 I was just wondering why you prefer no kata.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 20, 2004)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> Chiro04 I was just wondering why you prefer no kata.


Its been my observation from the tough guys in my dojo who just want to learn to throw and either win a street fight or win a trophy, that it is just a matter of good old fashion American pragmatism.  Just learn what works.  The absence of kata hurts the judo player, and I'm sure it doesn't help the karateka either.


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## Shade Silverwing (Sep 20, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> The absence of kata hurts the judo player, and I'm sure it doesn't help the karateka either.


 Yep. My own instructor doesn't like kata, but she teaches it anyway.


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## RRouuselot (Sep 20, 2004)

beau99 said:
			
		

> Yep. My own instructor doesn't like kata, but she teaches it anyway.


People that don't like/trash talk kata don't know what kata really is........

go here and read post #55
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=276846#post276846


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## Andrew Green (Sep 20, 2004)

Lots of schools don't do kata.  Just keep looking


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## Shade Silverwing (Sep 21, 2004)

RRouuselot said:
			
		

> People that don't like/trash talk kata don't know what kata really is........
> 
> go here and read post #55
> http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=276846#post276846


 She doesn't talk trash about kata. She's just not very good at it.


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## chinto01 (Sep 21, 2004)

Kata in my opinion is the essence of karate.


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## chinto01 (Sep 21, 2004)

The essence of karate is kata. With out kata the moves you are doing are just kicks and punches.

" to study the ways of the fish, one must look into the water; to study the ways of karate one must look into the kata."

This is a quote from a book I am currently reading. I think it makes alot of sense. Think on it for a while!!


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## RRouuselot (Sep 21, 2004)

Basically kata can be compared to reading a language, much like Japanese. Kata is the written part of the language of Karate. Sometimes Japanese kanji can be difficult to understand and may look odd but the have meaning none the less. For example the kanji for hand (te) is rather simple but can be combined with various other kanji to make more words..this is true for technique found in kata. Just as with any language one must not only be able to speak ( application) but must also be able to read (kata). In order to get the full benefit from a language you need to know both the spoken and written word. this is true of Martial Arts as well. With skills in reading and writing one can further investigate and go much deeper in the language than one who is illiterate. Just as one who knows how to read kata can go further and deeper into training. Kata are the reference manuals, dictionaries, and thesauruses for martial arts. Those who dont value their worth dont know how to read them..in the same way that someone might not be able to read Russian therefore a book in Russian wouldnt be of much value to them until they learned how to read in Russian.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 21, 2004)

Nope, without kata you aren't doing karate.

Thankfully, there is no requirement that we all have to do karate


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## Sei-i (Sep 29, 2004)

chiro4 said:
			
		

> I found a school that I like.


Gut!  



> It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling.


Just wonder... how they all work together?... ;-)

I don't mean techniques. I mean body mechanics.



> It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language.


Why kata for kickboxing??? 

And judo, by the way, has it own katas as well... ;-)


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## Drac (Sep 29, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Nope, without kata you aren't doing karate.
> 
> Thankfully, there is no requirement that we all have to do karate


Yea, What he said....


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## Ippon Ken (Oct 6, 2004)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Nope, without kata you aren't doing karate.
> 
> Thankfully, there is no requirement that we all have to do karate


  Yeah, most karate (and MAs in general suck), even the MMAs variety. That's because all the hard work and hard sparring in the world will not necessarily make you a real "hard rock", like the kids say (well the cool ones at least). Additionally, fighting for the sake of fighting is for dolts. Ring sport or most MAs are for sadistic, regimented pain lovers, who have something to prove. Acclimation and sado-masochism are two different animals. Most people tend to get that aspect of hard training twisted.

It seems that a gym which teaches any karate ryu, Isshin or otherwise, would understand that without kata you're teaching variations of kickboxing. That's it. No "kara" and no "te". No "to" or no "de". It's pseudo jutsu, without the art aspect of the term "jutsu". It's crap, plain and simple. A way to take that which makes us human, our brain, and pummel it before the bad guys do. It's an affront to one's humanity.

Hey, so you're right. It is a good thing that most will never, ever, ever know what real karate is, or the depth of training real karate involves. They will kick their own asses more than any bad guy will. That's the truth. So dowahtchalike, it ain't affecting me adversely or positively one bit.

Kata, kata, kata.

Pax Romans....


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## harleyt26 (Oct 11, 2004)

I can understand that the study of traditional kata can be very difficult,it is supposed to be.Some of the old Okinawan masters spent their entire lives studying three or four kata.The advanced study of kata will involve several possible applications of assorted technique for each attack(series of moves in a kata),to not train for each possible application is to have a very small arsenal of knowlege to defend yourself.Without kata all you have are punches and kicks.Without kata how can you train sweeps ,throws ,foot catches and all the other possible defences that can be learned from the lifelong studies of our predecesors?Now lets talk about these schools that do not teach kata,I would venture to guess they do not teach makiwara use also.A dojo without a makiwara is a dance school.Those punches and kicks unless trained properly with makiwara will not have the power needed to acheive the desired outcome as well as likely injury to your own wrist ,elbow ,ankle or knee.The proper way to train makiwara can be found in kata,the footwork and body positioning are of utmost importance.But I guess the dance dojo need students too.Whatever you train in train hard.


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2004)

harleyt26 said:
			
		

> I've been doing kata for quite a while, but I have to disagree with a few things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ppko (Oct 11, 2004)

Makiwara training from my understanding is not to punch harder anyways, it is so that you can strangthen points (knuckles, fingers, etc.)to attack vulnerable areas:asian:


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## The Kai (Oct 11, 2004)

Boxers also train with gloves on and wrap on thier hands.  Years ago (when he all still thought there was nobility to the Mike Tyson saga), Tyson got into a street fight and broke his hand on the first punch!

Todd


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Boxers also train with gloves on and wrap on thier hands.  Years ago (when he all still thought there was nobility to the Mike Tyson saga), Tyson got into a street fight and broke his hand on the first punch!
> 
> Todd



Point taken and I do remember that he did break his hand.  Now, I don't hit a makiwara, so maybe you can answer this question for me.  First, there are other methods of hand conditioning correct?  I find it odd that the poster made it seem as if that is the only way of conditioning the hands.  Second, I would think that proper hand form is a big part in proper punching.  Again, I don't hit one, but I do regularly hit focus pads and bags both with and without gloves and have good results.  How much difference is the makiwara going to make with that?  Third, punching is not the only option.  Open handed strikes can also yield very good results.

Mike


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## The Kai (Oct 11, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Point taken and I do remember that he did break his hand. Now, I don't hit a makiwara, so maybe you can answer this question for me. First, there are other methods of hand conditioning correct? I find it odd that the poster made it seem as if that is the only way of conditioning the hands. Second, I would think that proper hand form is a big part in proper punching. Again, I don't hit one, but I do regularly hit focus pads and bags both with and without gloves and have good results. How much difference is the makiwara going to make with that? Third, punching is not the only option. Open handed strikes can also yield very good results.
> 
> Mike


IMHO opinion you are right on all your points, Boxers have a tendency to fire punchs with thier hands partially open (helps keep punchs snappy).  If you make a practice the correct fist formations can help (esp the 'goju" fist form).  Basicaaly there are a ton of ways to conditipon the fist, the problem with the makiwara is that you are crunching the bone.  In time you will have problems.  If you do decide to try makiwara keepp it light going more more the abrasion then straight impact
Todd


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> IMHO opinion you are right on all your points, Boxers have a tendency to fire punchs with thier hands partially open (helps keep punchs snappy).  If you make a practice the correct fist formations can help (esp the 'goju" fist form).  Basicaaly there are a ton of ways to conditipon the fist, the problem with the makiwara is that you are crunching the bone.  In time you will have problems.  If you do decide to try makiwara keepp it light going more more the abrasion then straight impact
> Todd



Thank you for the reply!  I was surfing the web for different ways to condition the hands and came across some iron palm methods.  They were talking about starting out with soft items and then gradually working up to something harder.  IMO, a makiwara is not a soft target to hit.  In addition, I would also be concerned about the long-term effects of hitting things with the hands.

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 11, 2004)

Something that I copied from the net.



> Introduction
> I had been a student at Lam Kwoon for about six months and one day was practicing Hung Gar's Gung Gee Fook Fu (Tempting the Tiger) form when Sifu came up to me to give me a lesson. This lesson was different, though, because instead of making corrections to my movements, he had me stop and show him my hands. Before I came to study with Sifu Lam, I had studied an Okinawan form of Karate. In this system we were taught to do our hand training by punching a makararwa, which is a flexible board with a rope tied around it. He looked at my hands, which were all bruised and swollen from my last practice, and shook his head. "If you keep this up, by the time that you are fifty you will not be able to use your hands," he said. Of course, this really concerned me, particularly since I play the guitar. I asked him what I should do. He gave me a bottle of Dit Da Jow, showed me how to apply it and told me that when my hands heal, we would talk again. In about a month's time, Sifu then introduced me to Chinese Iron Palm.
> 
> A Little of the History
> ...


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## The Kai (Oct 11, 2004)

I do have the bad of Mung beans which I was told give of a vapor when you hit it that helps keep your hands pliable.  I have not taken it any further (yet)

Todd


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## harleyt26 (Oct 12, 2004)

There are different types of makiwara for different types of training.We use makiwara for our weapons training as well.A good makiwara is not just a block of wood.A good makiwara will be built with a tapered board in a fashon so that it will flex on impact,that flex is a major training aid.The flex teaches you to keep pushing on impact as well as the flex teaches proper alignment of the entire body starting at the floor and stance then hip alignment with the back and shoulders then the elbow and wrist.If you do not have proper alignment you will not have the maximum power transmitted to the target,as well as injury to yourself is inevitable.You are correct at the beginning you should not be hitting the makiwara with full power. You can not get these same results from moving targets such as focus pads and heavy bags,that is a different type of training that does have its purpose also.I am not comparing karate training to boxing or sport karate,I am talking about one punch one kill.


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2004)

harleyt26 said:
			
		

> There are different types of makiwara for different types of training.We use makiwara for our weapons training as well.A good makiwara is not just a block of wood.A good makiwara will be built with a tapered board in a fashon so that it will flex on impact,that flex is a major training aid.The flex teaches you to keep pushing on impact as well as the flex teaches proper alignment of the entire body starting at the floor and stance then hip alignment with the back and shoulders then the elbow and wrist.If you do not have proper alignment you will not have the maximum power transmitted to the target,as well as injury to yourself is inevitable.You are correct at the beginning you should not be hitting the makiwara with full power. You can not get these same results from moving targets such as focus pads and heavy bags,that is a different type of training that does have its purpose also.



I agree that having the proper alignment is important due to the fact that an injury can occur.  Learning to throw proper punches can be attained through the use of focus pads and a heavy bag.  A person can hold the pads and bag with no movement and the punches can be thrown.  However, it is important to have movement, as the student will not be hitting a stationary target in a fight.  



> I am not comparing karate training to boxing or sport karate,I am talking about one punch one kill.



I would not rely on the one punch one kill mentality.

Mike


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 12, 2004)

chiro4 said:
			
		

> I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area.  This way I can make a choice before signing up.


I know that everyone is horrified by your desire for no Kata.  To each his own. If I were you I'd look into Systema.  I don't know of any schools in Buffalo but Toronto isn't very far and Systema will give you a very Western approach to Martial Arts. I still love doing American Kenpo but my exposure to Systema has made me see it very differently.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Oct 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> I agree that having the proper alignment is important due to the fact that an injury can occur.  Learning to throw proper punches can be attained through the use of focus pads and a heavy bag.  A person can hold the pads and bag with no movement and the punches can be thrown.  However, it is important to have movement, as the student will not be hitting a stationary target in a fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed! Focus pads also have the benefit that if you plan to like past 40 you are less likely to have crippling arthritis from the collective trauma of years of Makiwari board work.

Jeff


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## The Kai (Oct 12, 2004)

Now this is just my opinion, but I think hard core makiwara work is not real appliciable to the art of kenpo.  pads, bags, or anything that brings that snappy type of strikes would be a tad more beneficial

Todd


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Now this is just my opinion, but I think hard core makiwara work is not real appliciable to the art of kenpo.  pads, bags, or anything that brings that snappy type of strikes would be a tad more beneficial
> 
> Todd



Yes, there certainly are arts that have snappy kicks.  Like everything, even those have their time and place.  In my Arnis class, my instructor also rounds out the class with punching, kicking, throwing, and grappling.  Kenpo is my base art, but as far as the punching and kicking goes, I now tend to lean more towards Thai style kicking and boxing style punching with all of the footwork that goes along with it.

As for what to hit, how hard to hit, etc. I look at it like this.  A beginner needs to get the basics down first, before striking anything!  If they are not using proper form throwing punches and kicks in the air, whats gonna happen when they hit a target??  Most likely, an injury!!!  Any time any sort of conditioning takes place, it needs to be done slowly.  

Mike


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## chinto01 (Oct 12, 2004)

While in Okinawa this summer the subject of makiwara training came up with the Grandmaster as he was a student of Choki Motobu at one point. Motobu Sensei would have marathon makiwara training as Sensei told us but not what we thought. He told us that Motobu would encourage a beginner to hit the makiwara easily until he developed form and a conditioning to the knuckles. The more advanced a student got the harder he encouraged the student to strike but Motobu Sensei never encouraged full power only 60% power at the maximum. Sensei told us several times about how he himself had broken his hand and bloodied his knuckles on several occassions.


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

chiro4 said:
			
		

> I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area. This way I can make a choice before signing up.


What plaza/intersection/address in Lancaster is this school at?  I am from the Buffalo area and may know it.


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2004)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> While in Okinawa this summer the subject of makiwara training came up with the Grandmaster as he was a student of Choki Motobu at one point. Motobu Sensei would have marathon makiwara training as Sensei told us but not what we thought. He told us that Motobu would encourage a beginner to hit the makiwara easily until he developed form and a conditioning to the knuckles. The more advanced a student got the harder he encouraged the student to strike but Motobu Sensei never encouraged full power only 60% power at the maximum. Sensei told us several times about how he himself had broken his hand and bloodied his knuckles on several occassions.



Don't you think that it may be a good idea to start out slow and hit softer targets first?  Gradually build yourself up to the wood but start out with something softer.  What you're describing is the same thing as going to a gym, putting 300lbs on the bar, but only lifting it off the rack, not actually completing a full press.  Much better to start out with a lighter weight and build up.  

Mike


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## loki09789 (Oct 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Don't you think that it may be a good idea to start out slow and hit softer targets first? Gradually build yourself up to the wood but start out with something softer. What you're describing is the same thing as going to a gym, putting 300lbs on the bar, but only lifting it off the rack, not actually completing a full press. Much better to start out with a lighter weight and build up.
> 
> Mike


The current emphasis on knuckle rocks in Okinawan arts is not historical or an 'ancient' practice.  Think about it, if you are a peasant type and have these huge knobs on your first and second knuckles that are obvious to the local Samurai/occupation, it is like the pack strap marks that the American troops used in part to ID VC and NVA in hiding - it makes you stand out.

There are plenty of toughening practices that are more progressive and less scarring over time.

It has turned into a 'gut check' practice to weed out the non hackers in the modern practices.


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## harleyt26 (Oct 12, 2004)

When we train makiwara it is not particularly done to toughen our hands,that just happens to be a by product of that exercise.The makiwara we train on have leather pads on them and at beginning levels we stuff those with rags.As you say you must build up to the level you are trying to attain,and everybodies levels of desire are not the same.And of course you do not train as though one punch will be enough, but shouldnt you train as though you may only get one shot?      Thomas Hodges


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2004)

harleyt26 said:
			
		

> When we train makiwara it is not particularly done to toughen our hands,that just happens to be a by product of that exercise.The makiwara we train on have leather pads on them and at beginning levels we stuff those with rags.As you say you must build up to the level you are trying to attain,and everybodies levels of desire are not the same.



Ahh..thanks for the clarification.  When first reading this, nothing was mentioned about a soft target, such as the leather pads, rags, etc.  I guess we can say that we agree on that!  



> And of course you do not train as though one punch will be enough, but shouldnt you train as though you may only get one shot?      Thomas Hodges



Well, seeing as how this thread already went off topic, why not, in the tradition of things, keep it off track!    I'd be interested in hearing the definition of one shot one kill.

As for the above comment regarding those shots...it still appears to me that its saying the exact same thing.  If we did only get one shot, are we not trying to take them out with that one shot?  Hence...one shot, one kill.

Mike


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## harleyt26 (Oct 12, 2004)

If me or mine are being attacked I certainly would not be trying to score points.Each technique I would throw would be in the intent of one punch one kill,if it takes more than one each one would be delivered with that same intent.


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## chinto01 (Oct 12, 2004)

MJS said:
			
		

> Don't you think that it may be a good idea to start out slow and hit softer targets first? Gradually build yourself up to the wood but start out with something softer. What you're describing is the same thing as going to a gym, putting 300lbs on the bar, but only lifting it off the rack, not actually completing a full press. Much better to start out with a lighter weight and build up.
> 
> Mike


 
Please do not think that I was advocating people just going out and pounding away at a makiwara. This does however happen in some cases. I was just relating a story to people in hope that they may appreciate it that was all.


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## MJS (Oct 13, 2004)

harleyt26 said:
			
		

> If me or mine are being attacked I certainly would not be trying to score points.Each technique I would throw would be in the intent of one punch one kill,if it takes more than one each one would be delivered with that same intent.



Agreed! :asian: 

By the way, it appears that you do train in a TMA.  I'd be interested in hearing about what art you do, rank, etc.  

Mike


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## loki09789 (Oct 13, 2004)

harleyt26 said:
			
		

> When we train makiwara it is not particularly done to toughen our hands,that just happens to be a by product of that exercise.The makiwara we train on have leather pads on them and at beginning levels we stuff those with rags.As you say you must build up to the level you are trying to attain,and everybodies levels of desire are not the same.And of course you do not train as though one punch will be enough, but shouldnt you train as though you may only get one shot? Thomas Hodges


The other thing to consider is the springiness of Makiwara.  There is a timing, reactionary, tempo and rhythmn element to using it well.  Much like a speed back (but much less dynamic in most cases) or a double ended bag.


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## loki09789 (Oct 13, 2004)

chiro4 said:
			
		

> I found a school that I like. It is called the international martial arts in Lancaster New York. It is a blend of isshinryu, kenpo and aikido. You can also see elements of Judo, jujitsu, boxing, arnis and roman Greco wrestling. It appeals to me because there are no katas to learn and do not need to learn a foreign language. I live in Buffalo, New York. I would like to know if anyone knows of any similar schools in my area. This way I can make a choice before signing up.


I knew this sounded really familiar!  It is the location that I sublet for my program.  There are a few other schools in the area on Transit that have similar locales and similar sounding names so I wanted to make sure.  Thanks for the PM Chiro.

Yeah, the guy runs a user friendly program that maintains the spirit of traditions but applies English terms so that the context/meanings of the names are more recognizable (which can speed up learning in some cases).

I don't know much about the influencial or origination arts other than Kenpo but they are a good group that work well together.

As far as other schools in the area....what are you looking for specifically?  Are you looking for self defense focus, exercise, cultural experience.....?  There are TONS of TKD schools in the area (with Kata though) and other programs without kata as well.


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## Ippon Ken (Oct 14, 2004)

Some makiwara don't "spring". They are wall mounted or very secure and are for training the karate-ka to hit a solid target that doesn't give much or move in the opposite direction. If you do makiwara training right you won't ever develop visibly huge callouses or knuckles. Now if you make a tight fist they might look different, but with a relaxed hand it should look no different than anyone else's. If your knuckles look deformed or grotesque then you're doing it all wrong.

For advanced practitioners 20-30 strikes per fist is sufficient, and you don't have to do it everyday. For beginners 10 max (per fist) is all you should do.

Again' this is as an exercise in proper mechanics and alignment more than it is fist conditioning. If you "wing it" , make the fist too horizontal (or vertical) and snap your punches, then you are using bad form. There is a way to stand and use a solid base (without thrusting forward with your rear foot), and a way to drop your weight or raise it up and torque your hips, when you use the makiwara. At first the lack of give will jolt you. After you figure out how to hit it, your punch will be much stronger than it could ever be hitting a heavy-bag, and you'll send that rebound energy right back into the makiwara.

I'll leave it at that. Seems I write on this site for no reason anyway. The only time anyone has recently even paid attention to what I've posted was when I disagreed about the validity of a Japanese style of karate claiming it was Okinawan.

Have fun and train smart. Oh, and go find a real sensei to train under.


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## TimoS (Oct 14, 2004)

harleyt26 said:
			
		

> I am not comparing karate training to boxing or sport karate,I am talking about one punch one kill.



Personally I view the "one punch one kill" slogan as a more of a philosophical guide than an actual technique.


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## jakmak52 (Oct 14, 2004)

I believe kata/forms/poomse is the foundation of the martial arts I have studied. It has developed and increased my focus,concentration, memory, technique, and endurance as well as the other variaton of bunkai to assimulate attacks from multiple opponents. It also wins me trophies:ultracool


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi All,

Please use the speed bag and the other bags that are avaliable.

Much better for you...:whip: 

Do your Katas and Forms and Dances and Sets, stay away from the beating of your hands or gaining lots of callous on the inside of hands from hard work or the knuckles from the boards!!! (carpentry)

Learn FMA, don't beat up your body, much experience talking hear/here!!!

Regards, Gary


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## GAB (Oct 14, 2004)

Hi,

If you want to talk about the one punch one kill, and train for it, you are on a path that is probably not real fullfilling.

One shot one kill, for hunters, that is the way some view the ultimate prize.

In self defense, or the reason you are taking the art, if that is the reason. Go and start training with a firearm. 

I have seen many shooting's, one shot, one kill works good, when you have a shotgun and the victim is about ideally 20 feet from you with 00 or 000. Closer, I prefer # fives or #fours.

I have seen people shot to rags and still live, then I have seen some shot once and die. 

Being gut shot is not a good thing, my Dad was gut shot accidently as a teenager spent 6 mos in the hospital in Denver CO. It was in the 30's very lucky person. Hey, I would not be here giving you this lecture. Sorry dude...

I grew up, no guns. 

I had bow and arrows, crossbows, made alot of them myself, and blow guns and slingshots and spears and knives and swords and bayonets and throwing knives hand to hand combat, but no guns..

It is a very sad and disasterous thing to take someones life, even if they deserve it. The ramifications are endless...

In some countries they don't do it and in others they do.
If you are truly the warrior and have that mindset, you will be ok. Maybe???

If not you will be better to stick to training in Katas. IMHO 

Regards, Gary


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## BlackCatBonz (Oct 16, 2004)

i do believe in the one shot idea, but i want robert to correct if i am wrong.
i believe the philosophy comes from the saying "ichi byo shi" which means "in one breath". 
i take that to mean this, when an attack is started the issue is decided and ended as quickly as it began, in one breath, or at the same instant.......i think this is maybe a better philosophy to live by from a self defense point of view.

shawn


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## Wikket (Oct 21, 2004)

Referring to kata:
Unfortunately too many people now only practice the performance aspect of kata and have lost site of its value as a training tool, just like Makawara, mitts etc.  It surpasses these by training real applications which when practiced in context develop defensive skills.  The difficult bit is finding someone who can teach this.  Tournaments and lack of handed down knowledge has reduced kata in many circles to being almost simply a dance - techniques are adapted to look good and the bunkai is changed to suit the new performance based style.

I especially liked this from page 1


> Just as one who knows how to read kata can go further and deeper into training. Kata are the reference manuals, dictionaries, and thesauruses for martial arts. Those who dont value their worth dont know how to read them


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## loki09789 (Oct 21, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> i do believe in the one shot idea, but i want robert to correct if i am wrong.
> i believe the philosophy comes from the saying "ichi byo shi" which means "in one breath".
> i take that to mean this, when an attack is started the issue is decided and ended as quickly as it began, in one breath, or at the same instant.......i think this is maybe a better philosophy to live by from a self defense point of view.
> 
> shawn


 
I have never heard that interpretation of the idea before.  It makes more tactical sense to me than the artistic/stylistic goal of 'one shot' finishers (which might be an aesthetic/artistic focus but isn't a fight/self defense reality).

Just last class I was telling students to do the self defense technique in one long exhale to really improve fluidity and relaxation/coordination....cool.


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## Keetoowah (Apr 17, 2008)

I used to feel this was about kata.  That is until I became a real martial artist.  I had to grow.  I also used to scoff at the idea of chi and internal arts.
  What can I say?  I grew up.  What does bother me is that I am studying a mixed kenpo/kungfu  Frankensteinian style.  However we do Okinawan kata that looks absofreakin-nothing like our circular and flowing techniques.  I would LOVE the kata if it used the self defense we learn.  Right now it's pretty worthless because they are just moves that are dances that we gotta do to get the next belt because they are not what we do in combat - and they therefor do not help us understand our techniques.  If you are having a hard time imagining what I am talking about just imagine how effective shotokan katas would be for a Bagua student.  Duh.  Like total waste of time.  If I ever taught I would either teach tai chi forms or invent my own to coincide with the techniques.  And if you purists don't like that then sorry - some one had to invent katas.


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## MahaKaal (Apr 17, 2008)

In my art we dont have katas as such, but over the time that a student practises and learns strategies / concepts / techniques he develops his own Penthra (footwork, strategy, technique, flow) and the student is encouraged to mentally think of attacks and defences, counters and counter-counters.  In the mind there is constant imagery of combat, and over time you develop a dynamic, ever changing, adaptable and flexible "kata" which aids your fighting and at the same time developing mental processing and calculations of techniques.

This is expressed by the students Bhaavna (emotion) and each student will develop soemthing which is individual to him, but he will still stay within the format and boundaries of the art.


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## Em MacIntosh (Apr 17, 2008)

I find kata is great for warming up and developing muscle memory but patterns can be detrimental and make you predictable.  I _prefer_ a "sticking hands(ish)" style to learn to react with the apropriate technique to the random attack.  That way I can learn visual reaction congruent with muscle memory without having to visualize and concentrate harder than my surroundings require.  The japanese language won't help you defend yourself, and what is learned in kata _can _be learned through other methods I personally find produce improvements of a higher quality more efficiently.  To me, katas are a combination of renzouko-waza put together as a substitute for written record, I find no spiritual meaning in them though they do have meditative properties.  I perform kata for tradition's sake and I do learn for the time I spend doing them.  I prefer to break a kata down into it's component movements and try to learn to transition from one technique to the other but not in the same order as the kata.


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## Jim Greenwood (Apr 25, 2008)

Kata has meaning and there is a reason you do it... it is to train you to do without thinking. You learn to fight from the void and defend without thought. You do it over and over and over to train your body to react in that split second. Yeah kata cant be done very well with sparring because if done right its dangerous. Kata is the essence of Karate, any system of Karate No matter if its Okinawan system or Japanese or Chinese or American or even Tae Kwon Do its all empty hand combat. Kata also teaches balance, coordination, pivoting and doing multiple things with different parts of your body at the same time. Then you can get into the whole aspect of hidden movements and what kata really is teaching you for real self-defense, joint locks, sweeps, kicking and punching combinations to do the most damage, proper angle and directions to strike the body, head, arms and legs and then you can add in the pressure point or nerve attacks and how it teaches you to properly do this. Bottom line, kata is good for many reasons and I think if you study any martial art you should learn at least one or two kata and really study them and learn them for what they are really for and not just performance katas either. If you say you are a karate practitioner and you dont study katas you arent learning karate you are learning self-defense period. Which is fine and great if that is what you want to do and if it works well for you thats all the better.


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