# Practicing Both Sides



## cdhall

YEARS ago I know I was in many... discussions on the merits of practicing techniques ion both sides in Ed Parker's Kenpo.

I can't find an old thread now to throw this gasoline on so I'll just paste here what I posted to Facebook just now and maybe in 10 years I'll come back and look and see what happened...
:O

Hope you all are well. I don't miss the flame wars. But I had to share this:

*I'll  have to find my Martial Talk and Kenpo Talk logins... meanwhile I'll  post this here. I wish I had this YEARS ago when Mr. C and I spent so  much time arguing this truth.

 At 2:44 Mr. Parker states "The reason I like you to practice your techniques on both sides..."

 !?!?!!!!

 I SOOOO needed this clip once...

 I'll have to find a way to get this on my phone so I have it the next  time I am with any Kenpo people who argue how much of a waste of time  practicing both sides is.





 
 Shout out to Mr. Dennis Conatser Sr. Mr. Brian Duffy for never backing down on this assertion and passing it on to my Ambidextrious Kenpo Self.*


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## Kenpo Dan

Try this, Pilot clock. Point of orgin six o'clock. The Venetian blind. If executed on both sides. Wide stance raining claw. A little deeper step because the arm is a little higher and a little straighter, glancing wing if learned on the opposite side. If a deeper step or step through we use prance of the Tiger, which is really three o'clock at this point.

Example 2. Same applies with a right one hand push. Venetian blind. Close range or wide stance your push starts with trigger salute. A little deeper step, the push lands center of chest, snapping twig if learned on the other side. A little deeper step and we have glancing salute. Mr. Parker called it a constituent system, in his encyclopedia. It Is known to a engineer as component based system with each one of his techniques has a specific purpose.

Now if you learned them on the opposite side, you would have left hand push to your right side, left-hand push to center "already learned" snapping twig, and now glancing salute a left-hand cross push to your right side. You completed this category. Kind of because you're off set push repeating Mace needs to be learned on both sides.

Another example, is talked about in his encyclopedia of Kenpo in the cousin techniques/mother father. And these are not taught in order, some you find before and after. This would be in order. Point of origin punching hand located chest level. Target your sternum or solar plexus. Flashing wing, short range, attacking Mace, medium-range and the third component actually found in the club technique thrust to your chest, circling the storm.. All of these are on the right side but same idea if you would've learned the club thrust as a left-hand thrust. 

As Mr. Parker said, sophisticated simplicity.


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## Kenpo Dan

Kenpo Dan said:


> Try this, Pilot clock. Point of orgin six o'clock. The Venetian blind. If executed on both sides. Wide stance raining claw. A little deeper step because the arm is a little higher and a little straighter, glancing wing if learned on the opposite side. If a deeper step or step through we use prance of the Tiger, which is really three o'clock at this point.
> 
> Example 2. Same applies with a right one hand push. Venetian blind. Close range or wide stance your push starts with trigger salute. A little deeper step, the push lands center of chest, snapping twig if learned on the other side. A little deeper step and we have glancing salute. Mr. Parker called it a constituent system, in his encyclopedia. It Is known to a engineer as component based system with each one of his techniques has a specific purpose.
> 
> Now if you learned them on the opposite side, you would have left hand push to your right side, left-hand push to center "already learned" snapping twig, and now* glancing salute a left-hand cross push to your right side.* You completed this category. Kind of because you're off set push repeating Mace needs to be learned on both sides.
> 
> Another example, is talked about in his encyclopedia of Kenpo in the cousin techniques/mother father. And these are not taught in order, some you find before and after. This would be in order. Point of origin punching hand located chest level. Target your sternum or solar plexus. Flashing wing, short range, attacking Mace, medium-range and the third component actually found in the club technique thrust to your chest, circling the storm.. All of these are on the right side but same idea if you would've learned the club thrust as a left-hand thrust.
> 
> As Mr. Parker said, sophisticated simplicity.



*Sorry, Glancing salute would be a cross push left to left, on the other side.*


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## Kenpo Dan

Sorry, little more time.

We can use the Venetian blind theory for your one hand grabs mirroring the way the pushes are laid out. Delayed sword, and fallen falcon squared or wide stance to your opponent, one is for a grab push, and one is for a grab pull, known as Ying Yang. Next step the mechanics of your pull or push is no longer angled to the opponents outside your 11:00 for a pull, fallen falcon, or push to your 7:00. Your opponent  angle of pull or push is lone kimono push to 6:00 or a pull toward your 12 o'clock, conquering shield. These are your center of chest grabs and pushes according to your opponents alignment. In other words triggered salute is a prelude to delayed sword, or fallen falcon. As snapping twig is to lone kimono, and conquering shield.

If you explore your to hand grabs, and include to hand chokes you will find different angles of compliance for each. If you have the original manuals where the footwork has not changed you will find a direction of compliance for each. Example. Cross of destruction has you moving to your left and then into counterclockwise motion. And falling cross has you moving to your left and then into a counter clockwise motion. The reason being the opponent is not standing square to you, fallen across he is in a right lead stance. And cross of destruction he is in a left lead stance. To feel is to know which technique to use. But if you have the original force toward your three o'clock you must then learn this on the other side. On all of your techniques even which foot the opponent is stepping in with is very important. Again see book 5 of infinite insights and chapter 7, how do you determine what technique to use. Check and see if your instructor, if he's old-timer, has the original 1987. Copyrighted manuals of Mr. Ed Parker. Third Brown is over 100 pages alone. 

We also have no stick techniques to the right side of your body, but if you learn securing the storm for the path of travel from your 9 to 3, now you learn it from 3 to 9 as a left horizontal club strike, you have it covered. Same as Defying the storm path of travel from 10:30 to 4:30 from a right-hand diagonal club strike. Now learn it on the other side diagonally down from 1:30 to 7:30 you have it for a left club strike for the appropriate angle.

Left-hand attacks etc. that are not taught on the right side will fill in a gap if learned on the other side. Right-hand attacks etc. can fill a gap left out and left hand attacks. 

Hope this helps.
Dan
yes, you need to learn them on both sides, and why! Simple if you didn't learn them on both sides what would you do for a right center chest push, I'm sure a trained martial artist could come up with an answer, or you could have just learned snapping twig on the right side. Etc. etc. etc.


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## Kenpo Dan

Another worth while endeavor is to explore the other side of motion, as reverse motion. Using outside of securing the storm a horizontal club strike, and returning the storm opposite of. You can also have the return motion of any of the other club techniques. For instance calming the storms path of travel is 7:30 to your head on the vertical clock. So reverse motion would be from approximately 1:30 diagonally back to you. 

 Or looking at it as the beginning of the technique, if it was a right backhand club from your right on a upward angle 4:30 to your head practice checking the storm not only on the other side against a left, but on the outside of his right diagonal upward. After your first outward downward block and punch you'll find circling the horizon, a descending right punch from 1:30.


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpo Dan said:


> Another worth while endeavor is to explore the other side of motion, as reverse motion. Using outside of securing the storm a horizontal club strike, and returning the storm opposite of. You can also have the return motion of any of the other club techniques. For instance calming the storms path of travel is 7:30 to your head on the vertical clock. So reverse motion would be from approximately 1:30 diagonally back to you.
> 
> Or looking at it as the beginning of the technique, if it was a right backhand club from your right on a upward angle 4:30 to your head practice checking the storm not only on the other side against a left, but on the outside of his right diagonal upward. After your first outward downward block and punch you'll find circling the horizon, a descending right punch from 1:30.


Return motion is half your art.


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## Kenpo Dan

Return motion is half your art. 

Nice, and after years of analyzing each technique I found same goes with only learning on one side.

You can take category of round housing - if learned on both sides

1. Circles of protection - path of travel from 10:30 to 4:30 - or 1:30 to 7:30 overhead diagonally down
2. Sword of destruction - path of travel from 9:00 - or 3:00 horizontal
3. Raining claw - path of travel - 6:00 to 12:00 or 6:00 to 12:00 left vertical upward
4. Five swords - path of travel - 7:30 to 11:30 or 4:30 to 10:30 diagonally up

And while analyzing techniques like glancing wing, and prance of the Tiger you add to the dimension of the step. These are also uppercuts which are technically roundhouses. But deals with the different depths of action, if learned on both sides. The other techniques above also have techniques that deal with the different depths of action. Basically if your targets are located on his centerline sternum solar plexus, etc. it's a short step. Knowing your targets and what weapons you use gives you a clue on the depth of a technique.

Five swords is an interesting technique. If you have book 5 of infinite insights you'll notice that the block in the written version is to the wrist, not the biceps. The pictures on the following page do not reflect the the the written version of the technique, nor the Parker's manual. Note: same with delayed sword in the 1987 manual.

If truly understood, the student should be able to be tested, without the instructor telling the student which technique to use. Now you have a very tangible art.


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpo Dan said:


> Return motion is half your art.
> 
> Nice, and after years of analyzing each technique I found same goes with only learning on one side.
> 
> You can take category of round housing - if learned on both sides
> 
> 1. Circles of protection - path of travel from 10:30 to 4:30 - or 1:30 to 7:30 overhead diagonally down
> 2. Sword of destruction - path of travel from 9:00 - or 3:00 horizontal
> 3. Raining claw - path of travel - 6:00 to 12:00 or 6:00 to 12:00 left vertical upward
> 4. Five swords - path of travel - 7:30 to 11:30 or 4:30 to 10:30 diagonally up
> 
> And while analyzing techniques like glancing wing, and prance of the Tiger you add to the dimension of the step. These are also uppercuts which are technically roundhouses. But deals with the different depths of action, if learned on both sides. The other techniques above also have techniques that deal with the different depths of action. Basically if your targets are located on his centerline sternum solar plexus, etc. it's a short step. Knowing your targets and what weapons you use gives you a clue on the depth of a technique.
> 
> Five swords is an interesting technique. If you have book 5 of infinite insights you'll notice that the block in the written version is to the wrist, not the biceps. The pictures on the following page do not reflect the the the written version of the technique, nor the Parker's manual. Note: same with delayed sword in the 1987 manual.
> 
> If truly understood, the student should be able to be tested, without the instructor telling the student which technique to use. Now you have a very tangible art.


I agree, just so long as you don't let yourself think it is the same. Its not.
Sean


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## MJS

I've trained both sides for a while now.  IMO, I do see a value in it, despite some that think it isn't necessary or is just 'busy work', but to each their own.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

MJS said:


> I've trained both sides for a while now.  IMO, I do see a value in it, despite some that think it isn't necessary or is just 'busy work', but to each their own.



I got away from it and recently came back to it. Oddly, studying other arts made me reconsider it when I came to realization that Kenpo was the only one I currently train where I _didn't_ make it a point to do both sides.


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## Kenpo Dan

Both sides are already taught, Forms long three, and form 4.

Shield and Mace - ( horizontal punch ) (from 1:30) Standing naturally, step with your left foot to 11:00 into a left neutral bow, pivot to your right into a horse, right vertical outward block to the outside of opponents right arm, with a left straight punch to center of mass, his lower ribcage.  

Now learn the technique from 10:30 as a left punch. Great training for mass attack.

But both sides is a must to understand that snapping twigs is the center push (if learned on the right) that fills in the gap between Triggered Salute and Glancing Salute.  Due to depth of action. 

If you only learned left hand grabs, Delayed sword, Grab push, Falling falcon, grab pull, Dominating circles, as left hand grabs you would find you start center of front Lone kimono, center push, Conquering shield, center chest grab pull and work your way through to center of his back, Menacing Twirl. Pinning Wing, controled wing, sword and hammer, obscure claws, obscure wing, obscure sword. only the first three of these listed above are taught as right one hand grabs. 
(NOT in ORDER)

If all taught as left one hand grabs it covers half of *your* body,  the right side, or direction of attack, half of the floor clock, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 5:00 and 6:00, push, pull, arm straight etc. The odds of this being by chance, very slim. 

In Mr Parkers 1987 journals, after Orange Belt you had to learn both sides to pass to the next belt. His writings not mine.


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpo Dan said:


> Both sides are already taught, Forms long three, and form 4.
> 
> Shield and Mace - ( horizontal punch ) (from 1:30) Standing naturally, step with your left foot to 11:00 into a left neutral bow, pivot to your right into a horse, right vertical outward block to the outside of opponents right arm, with a left straight punch to center of mass, his lower ribcage.
> 
> Now learn the technique from 10:30 as a left punch. Great training for mass attack.
> 
> But both sides is a must to understand that snapping twigs is the center push (if learned on the right) that fills in the gap between Triggered Salute and Glancing Salute.  Due to depth of action.
> 
> If you only learned left hand grabs, Delayed sword, Grab push, Falling falcon, grab pull, Dominating circles, as left hand grabs you would find you start center of front Lone kimono, center push, Conquering shield, center chest grab pull and work your way through to center of his back, Menacing Twirl. Pinning Wing, controled wing, sword and hammer, obscure claws, obscure wing, obscure sword. only the first three of these listed above are taught as right one hand grabs.
> (NOT in ORDER)
> 
> If all taught as left one hand grabs it covers half of *your* body,  the right side, or direction of attack, half of the floor clock, 12:00, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 5:00 and 6:00, push, pull, arm straight etc. The odds of this being by chance, very slim.
> 
> In Mr Parkers 1987 journals, after Orange Belt you had to learn both sides to pass to the next belt. His writings not mine.


Nobody is arguing with you, I am just saying there will always be a side you can do magic on, and a side you will suck on.


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## Touch Of Death

Here is another art dealing with the same topic. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/110884-Preferred-Kicking-Leg.; so there is a side you will also have more control, and a side you will have more power, but there is also a side you don't see as well from, based on the direction of attack.
Sean


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## Kenpo Dan

Touch Of Death said:


> Nobody is arguing with you, I am just saying there will always be a side you can do magic on, and a side you will suck on.



Training should be 5 to 1 on weak side. Most will not take the time.

Busted up my right elbow back in 79, with a number of other bones, bathroom DUDY was a chore with the left, to put it nicely. But now it's a breeze. 

No arguing here, maybe different thoughts on a subject, but thats why I spend a few hours a day in study.

Thanks for your reply.

Dan


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## Kenpo Dan

If we look at Mr Parker system as only for the right hand, this would mean left handed people need not apply.
In Infinite Insight volume 1 chapter 8 he explains this by speaking about the man with no right hand. 

By analyzation you will find, left to right and right to left techniques for the same path of travel. Securing the storm and sword of destruction. Now if you lean this on both sides your good to go with only one hand or from left or right lead. Or right to left lead, left to left, and right to right lead. See book 3 page,124,125. Work the same path of travel from each stance listed, see what technique comes to mind.

Free-style techniques explains this, 32 free-style techniques per belt after yellow belt to blue and green is to learn them on both sides, which is hardly ever taught, but is required in his 1987 journals. These are listed R to R or L to L, R to L and  L to R.

Three divisions of the art chapter 3 volume 1. Basics, Self-Defense, Free-style, A lot of answer come from the free-style notes in the journals.

Dan


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## chrstnkenpoist

Kenpo Dan said:


> If we look at Mr Parker system as only for the right hand, this would mean left handed people need not apply.
> In Infinite Insight volume 1 chapter 8 he explains this by speaking about the man with no right hand.
> 
> By analyzation you will find, left to right and right to left techniques for the same path of travel. Securing the storm and sword of destruction. Now if you lean this on both sides your good to go with only one hand or from left or right lead. Or right to left lead, left to left, and right to right lead. See book 3 page,124,125. Work the same path of travel from each stance listed, see what technique comes to mind.
> 
> Free-style techniques explains this, 32 free-style techniques per belt after yellow belt to blue and green is to learn them on both sides, which is hardly ever taught, but is required in his 1987 journals. These are listed R to R or L to L, R to L and  L to R.
> 
> Three divisions of the art chapter 3 volume 1. Basics, Self-Defense, Free-style, A lot of answer come from the free-style notes in the journals.
> 
> Dan


Although it is correct in saying that both sides of the body are worked at various times throughout the system, it is not the same as working all the techniques and forms on both sides. I don't see how anyone can argue against the profitability of training all techniques, and forms on both sides of the body. Admittedly it would be a lot of work, but like "they" say, nothing worthwhile is easy.


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## Touch Of Death

Kenpo Dan said:


> If we look at Mr Parker system as only for the right hand, this would mean left handed people need not apply.
> In Infinite Insight volume 1 chapter 8 he explains this by speaking about the man with no right hand.
> 
> By analyzation you will find, left to right and right to left techniques for the same path of travel. Securing the storm and sword of destruction. Now if you lean this on both sides your good to go with only one hand or from left or right lead. Or right to left lead, left to left, and right to right lead. See book 3 page,124,125. Work the same path of travel from each stance listed, see what technique comes to mind.
> 
> Free-style techniques explains this, 32 free-style techniques per belt after yellow belt to blue and green is to learn them on both sides, which is hardly ever taught, but is required in his 1987 journals. These are listed R to R or L to L, R to L and  L to R.
> 
> Three divisions of the art chapter 3 volume 1. Basics, Self-Defense, Free-style, A lot of answer come from the free-style notes in the journals.
> 
> Dan


I wouldn't say, "Need Not Apply", I would say, "Left handers have to do what they always have to do with a right hand dominant system".


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## Tez3

chrstnkenpoist said:


> Although it is correct in saying that both sides of the body are worked at various times throughout the system, it is not the same as working all the techniques and forms on both sides. I don't see how anyone can argue against the profitability of training all techniques, and forms on both sides of the body. Admittedly it would be a lot of work, but like "they" say, nothing worthwhile is easy.




My karate style and my TSD has always trained everything on both sides, we've always practised all kicks off both front and back leg, both sides as well. I don't think it's hard work particularly but then I've never known any different.


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## Kung Fu Wang

You may train "general techniques" on both sides, but you should train your "door guarding techniques - techniques used to finish a fight" on one side only. The reason are:

- It's better to make one side 90% good than to make both side 45% good.
- During life and death situation, you will only have one chance. Your 90% ability will give you better survival chance than your 45% ability. Your "strong right arm choke" can end fight much faster than a "weak right arm choke" or a "weak left arm choke".
- You can always train different techniques on different sides. This way you will develop twice as many "effective" techniques such as right side kick and left roundhouse kick.
- It's very common to have a good left jab and right cross. No need to have good right jab and left cross at the same time if you always keep your left side forward.
- You just don't see people shot gun, play tennis, or write letter with both hands in the real world.
- ...


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You may train "general techniques" on both sides, but you should train your "door guarding techniques - techniques used to finish a fight" on one side only. The reason are:
> 
> - It's better to make one side 90% good than to make both side 45% good.
> - During life and death situation, you will only have one chance. Your 90% ability will give you better survival chance than your 45% ability. Your "strong right arm choke" can end fight much faster than a "weak right arm choke" or a "weak left arm choke".
> - You can always train different techniques on different sides. This way you will develop twice as many "effective" techniques such as right side kick and left roundhouse kick.
> - It's very common to have a good left jab and right cross. No need to have good right jab and left cross at the same time if you always keep your left side forward.
> - You just don't see people shot gun, play tennis, or write letter with both hands in the real world.
> - ...




You may, we don't. What happens if you are injured on your so called 'good' side, or you are jammed where you can't use it. Train both sides, equally well, don't really on being able to only use your 'strong' side. Two strong sides are always going to be better than one. I have a good left and right jab and a good right and left cross, elbows I can work form either side equally as I can back fist, knife hand, hammer fists etc. I don't always have my left side forward, I can switch easily and do. I'm typical of my style, most are better. Oh and my husband can shoot, write and play tennis with both hands


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## Kung Fu Wang

Tez3 said:


> Two strong sides are always going to be better than one.


To develop 2 strong sides will take twice as much time. To make both legs equal strong will double the training time.







Most of Bill Wallace's kicks are on his left side.






Most of Ronda Rousey's throws are on her left side.


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## Flying Crane

Make your own decisions for yourself on this.  This is one of those arguments where people believe what they believe, and don't change their minds.

I'll say this, tho.  Comparing it to sports, tennis, writing, etc. is apples to oranges.  Those activities are done in an arena where you are able to choose to do it on your dominant side.  In combat or self defense, you may not have the luxury of that choice.


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## Drose427

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To develop 2 strong sides will take twice as much time. To make both legs equal strong will double the training time.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of Bill Wallace's kicks are on his left side.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most of Ronda Rousey's throws are on her left side.



Superfoot was only capable of kicking with one leg because of a football injury, he most likely would have trained them both.

Benny the Jet kicked with both legs, hes nearly as iconic as Superfoot in kickboxing


As for rousey, im sure she trains both sides. Everyone just has a preference, that doesnt mean one should just limit themselves based on time.


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## Flying Crane

I'll make Another comment here.  This thread is in the Kenpo forum and this is a debate among the Kenpo folks for a long time.  The Parker-derived lineages tend to structure their curriculum in a way that is somewhat different from how many other systems do it.  They have lists of "self defense techniques" that are kinda like little bunkais in that they give a sequence to practice a defense against a specific attack.  These are stand-alone techniques, and the belt curriculum and ranking promotions tend to be based on learning them.  And there are a lot of them.  The lineages closest to Mr. Parker at his death tend to haves total of 150 or so.  The lineage in which I trained is Tracy, we had a total of some 380, plus many variations.  Some lineages have more, some are streamlining and have fewer.

Personally, I found this approach to a curriculum to be very cumbersome and for me, not useful or functional.  That is why I no longer train Kenpo.  Other people feel it works.  To each his own.

However, this debate makes more sense in the Kenpo context because it is about practicing these hundreds of self-defense combos on both sides.  When you've got a list that goes on forever, adding the other side does add to the workload and the time needed, tremendously.

For this debate, context does matter.  And yes, when I did train Kenpo, I did practice both sides.  I did it from day one and was shocked to discover others were not doing the same.


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## Touch Of Death

TE="Tez3, post: 1697993, member: 10553"]My karate style and my TSD has always trained everything on both sides, we've always practised all kicks off both front and back leg, both sides as well. I don't think it's hard work particularly but then I've never known any different.[/QUOTE]
Assuming you are right handed, yo


Flying Crane said:


> I'll make Another comment here.  This thread is in the Kenpo forum and this is a debate among the Kenpo folks for a long time.  The Parker-derived lineages tend to structure their curriculum in a way that is somewhat different from how many other systems do it.  They have lists of "self defense techniques" that are kinda like little bunkais in that they give a sequence to practice a defense against a specific attack.  These are stand-alone techniques, and the belt curriculum and ranking promotions tend to be based on learning them.  And there are a lot of them.  The lineages closest to Mr. Parker at his death tend to haves total of 150 or so.  The lineage in which I trained is Tracy, we had a total of some 380, plus many variations.  Some lineages have more, some are streamlining and have fewer.
> 
> Personally, I found this approach to a curriculum to be very cumbersome and for me, not useful or functional.  That is why I no longer train Kenpo.  Other people feel it works.  To each his own.
> 
> However, this debate makes more sense in the Kenpo context because it is about practicing these hundreds of self-defense combos on both sides.  When you've got a list that goes on forever, adding the other side does add to the workload and the time needed, tremendously.
> 
> For this debate, context does matter.  And yes, when I did train Kenpo, I did practice both sides.  I did it from day one and was shocked to discover others were not doing the same.


To be honest, I don't even remember which side is the correct side anymore, when doing the techs, but I am a southpaw, and should consider fighting southpaw.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> TE="Tez3, post: 1697993, member: 10553"]My karate style and my TSD has always trained everything on both sides, we've always practised all kicks off both front and back leg, both sides as well. I don't think it's hard work particularly but then I've never known any different.





> Assuming you are right handed, yo
> To be honest, I don't even remember which side is the correct side anymore, when doing the techs, but I am a southpaw, and should consider fighting southpaw.


Yeah, they'd name a tech to show and if I was running thru without a partner I'd just do it on whatever side.  They would look at me funny and tell me I did it on the wrong side, it's against a LEFT punch, not a right.  I just shrugged and kept on practicing both sides.  These were my own instructors.  I figured, it was against a punch, period.  It could be executed on either side, depending on which punch the bad guy threw at you.

I gotta say tho, when the lists run into the hundreds, there are a lot of stupid ones, bad ideas in there.  Somebody needed to stop building the lists, but couldn't seem to stop.  There are simply NOT more than 75 good ways to defend against a punch of some sort.  There are some good ideas in there and then the good ideas run out and they become more and more silly.  And from what I hear, in my lineage the lists are still growing.  Good gawd.


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## chrstnkenpoist

Tez3 said:


> My karate style and my TSD has always trained everything on both sides, we've always practised all kicks off both front and back leg, both sides as well. I don't think it's hard work particularly but then I've never known any different.


In my training beginning inTracy/ Chinese Kenpo into Parker/Planas American Kenpo . I have been trained in the basics, see kicks etc, on both sides of the body, front/back. What I was saying, refers to all the "particular" self defense techniques, and forms, of the Parker System of American Kenpo. As was already alluded to, the system does train both the right and left sides through this technique or that form, but not ALL the techniques, and forms. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, they'd name a tech to show and if I was running thru without a partner I'd just do it on whatever side.  They would look at me funny and tell me I did it on the wrong side, it's against a LEFT punch, not a right.  I just shrugged and kept on practicing both sides.  These were my own instructors.  I figured, it was against a punch, period.  It could be executed on either side, depending on which punch the bad guy threw at you.
> 
> I gotta say tho, when the lists run into the hundreds, there are a lot of stupid ones, bad ideas in there.  Somebody needed to stop building the lists, but couldn't seem to stop.  There are simply NOT more than 75 good ways to defend against a punch of some sort.  There are some good ideas in there and then the good ideas run out and they become more and more silly.  And from what I hear, in my lineage the lists are still growing.  Good gawd.


It's really only a couple few options, every time, and the business model of your lineage says differently. LOL There is good dope in there, though.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, they'd name a tech to show and if I was running thru without a partner I'd just do it on whatever side.  They would look at me funny and tell me I did it on the wrong side, it's against a LEFT punch, not a right.  I just shrugged and kept on practicing both sides.  These were my own instructors.  I figured, it was against a punch, period.  It could be executed on either side, depending on which punch the bad guy threw at you.
> 
> I gotta say tho, when the lists run into the hundreds, there are a lot of stupid ones, bad ideas in there.  Somebody needed to stop building the lists, but couldn't seem to stop.  There are simply NOT more than 75 good ways to defend against a punch of some sort.  There are some good ideas in there and then the good ideas run out and they become more and more silly.  And from what I hear, in my lineage the lists are still growing.  Good gawd.


Consider this small point. When doing tech on you opposite side, it would be natural to look for ways to switch sides, safely, but when doing them, on your strong side, you aren't exactly looking for ways to become weak.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> It's really only a couple few options, every time, and the business model of your lineage says differently. LOL There is good dope in there, though.


Business model can certainly ruin things.


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## Flying Crane

I don't even know what it means to fight right handed or left handed.  There are arguments to be made for having weak side forward or strong side forward or neither.  Some of these distinctions are kinda ridiculous.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying israne said:


> I don't even know what it means to fight right handed or left handed.  There are arguments to be made for having weak side forward or strong side forward or neither.  Some of these distinctions are kinda ridiculous.


Your best side is having your dominant eye to the rear.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> Your best side is having your dominant eye to the rear.


I don't agree.  Nor do I disagree.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> I don't agree.  Nor do I disagree.


In bowling, you want the same idea, so, your aiming eye isn't the opposite of your throwing arm.


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To develop 2 strong sides will take twice as much time. To make both legs equal strong will double the training time.



No, training takes as long as you want, if you want to become a well developed martial artists you will never stop training, there's never a point where you say 'right I've learnt this now' and pat yourself on the back, you constantly strive to become better so no, training both sides doesn't take twice as much time, it's just part of your training. If you are timing your training it may be a sign you aren't training properly.
It makes sense to have as strong a body as possible not just one side strong and the other weak.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> In bowling, you want the same idea, so, your aiming eye isn't the opposite of your throwing arm.


It's not as simple as that.  Even if I favor my dominant side, there are some techniques I would fight dominant side forward, other techniques dominant side back, and others would be neither or it doesn't matter.  But I can't count on being able to use the dominant side.  Sometime you get taken by surprise and are not able to make that choice.  But at any rate, when people say fight right-handed, that's a meaningless designation to me. That doesn't indicate anything done in a standard way.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> It's not as simple as that.  Even if I favor my dominant side, there are some techniques I would fight dominant side forward, other techniques dominant side back, and others would be neither or it doesn't matter.  But I can't count on being able to use the dominant side.  Sometime you get taken by surprise and are not able to make that choice.  But at any rate, when people say fight right-handed, that's a meaningless designation to me. That doesn't indicate anything done in a standard way.


You still favor a side.


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> You still favor a side.




The side of peace is usually the best side to favour.


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> It's not as simple as that.  Even if I favor my dominant side, there are some techniques I would fight dominant side forward, other techniques dominant side back, and others would be neither or it doesn't matter.  But I can't count on being able to use the dominant side.  Sometime you get taken by surprise and are not able to make that choice.  But at any rate, when people say fight right-handed, that's a meaningless designation to me. That doesn't indicate anything done in a standard way.


You, Flying Crane, are a better fighter, when you can see what you are doing, and have the foot forward, you secretly want.


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## Kung Fu Wang

All techniques will required "enhancement" and that will require training time investment.

If you hang on the pole as shown in the following clip, you will be able to develop a strong "head lock" and strong "leg twist". Assume you have only 2 hours of your training time daily. Do you want to spend your training time on both sides or on just one side only?


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## Tez3

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you hang on the pole as shown in the following clip, you will be able to develop a strong "head lock" and strong "leg twist". Assume you have only 2 hours of your training time daily. Do you want to spend your training time on both sides or on just one side only?



If I only had two hours to train I wouldn't be faffing around on a pole, I'm a martial artist not a pole dancer. A pole dancer trains on a pole to make them good at what they do. Martial artists train martial arts to make them good at what they do.
If by 'headlock' you mean something like a RNC, not strength is involved in putting on of them on. I have no idea what a 'leg twist' is but if I want strong kicks...I train kicks, repeatedly, off both legs in front and back techniques.


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## Flying Crane

Touch Of Death said:


> You still favor a side.


Yes, but that can mean vastly different positions depending on what's going on.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Tez3 said:


> I have no idea what a 'leg twist' is but if I want strong kicks...I train kicks, repeatedly, off both legs in front and back techniques.


I did say that one should train "general techniques" on both sides, but train "door guarding techniques" on one side only.

May be I should explain what "leg twist" is here. The "leg twist" is not a kick. You use your leg to twist on your opponent's leg, break his balance, and take him down.












Since the human bodies do not have such kind of "leg twist" strength during birth and through daily life, this "special" strength will require special training and to hang/twist on a tree/pole is one way to develop that strength. You can also use the single_head to develop it too.






The issue is since you (general YOU) have to start from ground zero. If you spend 2 hours of your training time on one leg, you will get 2 hours of your result back on that leg. If you spend 1 hour of your training time on your right leg, 1 hour of your training time on your left leg, you will get 1 hour result back for your both legs. Since 2 hours of training result is better than 1 hour of training result, if you want to develop on both sides, you will need to invest twice as much training time. The decision will be yours.

If we look at someone who had seriously trained this skill, we can see that the "training mark" is on his right foot but is not on his left foot.


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## Tez3

'leg twist'...all done by 'special' strength alone eh?
Nope, don't think so, it's technique, technique, technique all the way.  I've done a lot of informal Judo ( my instructor was a Judoka first before he did anything else) so I don't know the names of throws but I'm sure a Judoka here will give the correct nomenclature for what you are describing.  Judoka don't fuff around with poles, they practice the throws.

A picture of a pair of feet proves nothing you know. What exactly do you train?


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## Touch Of Death

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, but that can mean vastly different positions depending on what's going on.


What it should always mean, is that when doing thing on your blindside, you should actually turn your head, and point your dominant eye toward what you are doing.


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## Blindside

Touch Of Death said:


> Your best side is having your dominant eye to the rear.



Can you explain how eye dominance matters in unarmed (or


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## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> Can you explain how eye dominance matters in unarmed (or


If you keep your dominant eye forward, you can see perfectly well what is happening just to the outside, but you lose perspective of things that are happening way inside. The thing of it is, you can't do anything about what you can see on the outside, but move.


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## Blindside

Are you saying your peripheral vision is different between your eyes with regard to dominance?


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## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> Are you saying your peripheral vision is different between your eyes with regard to dominance?


Yes. Weak side enhances the peripheral at the expense of your true focus.


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## Blindside

I am still not understanding, so you are saying that peripheral vision is equal between dominant and non-dominant eye, but having input from both eyes weakens your ability to react to your dominant eye?


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## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> I am still not understanding, so you are saying that peripheral vision is equal between dominant and non-dominant eye, but having input from both eyes weakens your ability to react to your dominant eye?


I love the bowling analogy; so, if you aim with the opposite eye of the hand you throw with, you have a better view of the lane next to you than you do your own. So, unless you close your dominant eye when you switch sides, which is impractical  in a fight, you will be aiming with the wrong eye. LOL


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## BUCKNAKEDBULLFROG

cdhall said:


> YEARS ago I know I was in many... discussions on the merits of practicing techniques ion both sides in Ed Parker's Kenpo.
> 
> I can't find an old thread now to throw this gasoline on so I'll just paste here what I posted to Facebook just now and maybe in 10 years I'll come back and look and see what happened...
> :O
> 
> Hope you all are well. I don't miss the flame wars. But I had to share this:
> 
> *I'll  have to find my Martial Talk and Kenpo Talk logins... meanwhile I'll  post this here. I wish I had this YEARS ago when Mr. C and I spent so  much time arguing this truth.
> 
> At 2:44 Mr. Parker states "The reason I like you to practice your techniques on both sides..."
> 
> !?!?!!!!
> 
> I SOOOO needed this clip once...
> 
> I'll have to find a way to get this on my phone so I have it the next  time I am with any Kenpo people who argue how much of a waste of time  practicing both sides is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 20 years ago my dad pointed out that every time i did a down block it was with the leading leg, so decided to preform a down block to the other side instead, if felt weird but after 2 months it started to fell normal i currently practice blocks and strikes to leading and non leading leg.
> 
> Shout out to Mr. Dennis Conatser Sr. Mr. Brian Duffy for never backing down on this assertion and passing it on to my Ambidextrious Kenpo Self.*





cdhall said:


> YEARS ago I know I was in many... discussions on the merits of practicing techniques ion both sides in Ed Parker's Kenpo.
> 
> I can't find an old thread now to throw this gasoline on so I'll just paste here what I posted to Facebook just now and maybe in 10 years I'll come back and look and see what happened...
> :O
> 
> Hope you all are well. I don't miss the flame wars. But I had to share this:
> 
> *I'll  have to find my Martial Talk and Kenpo Talk logins... meanwhile I'll  post this here. I wish I had this YEARS ago when Mr. C and I spent so  much time arguing this truth.
> 
> At 2:44 Mr. Parker states "The reason I like you to practice your techniques on both sides..."
> 
> !?!?!!!!
> 
> I SOOOO needed this clip once...
> 
> I'll have to find a way to get this on my phone so I have it the next  time I am with any Kenpo people who argue how much of a waste of time  practicing both sides is.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shout out to Mr. Dennis Conatser Sr. Mr. Brian Duffy for never backing down on this assertion and passing it on to my Ambidextrious Kenpo Self.*


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## punisher73

I have seen this debate before in regards to Ed Parker's kenpo.  Ed Parker's commercial model was big on "ideas" for exploration without hard and fast rules.  One of the motion experiments was "Category Completion", this is where you see some bad ideas, just so you have a technique that completes the category.  For example, you have a technique against a right punch.  Then you have inside/outside, hands up/hands down etc. etc.

As with a lot of the material (ie: many of the "2" sets) that was added in as filler material, practicing the self-defense techniques on both sides was filler material to give students more stuff to do. 

The system is designed for a right hand dominant person.  The left side is the support side, while the right side is the dominant side.  It doesn't mean that you don't use the left side, but it will always support the majority of action on the right side. Practicing on both sides can be a useful exercise, and some techniques may fit your style/approach better, but I think it is a waste of time to require the techniques to be done on both sides like that when they are designed for a purpose and there are others that address it from the other side already.


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## Touch Of Death

punisher73 said:


> I have seen this debate before in regards to Ed Parker's kenpo.  Ed Parker's commercial model was big on "ideas" for exploration without hard and fast rules.  One of the motion experiments was "Category Completion", this is where you see some bad ideas, just so you have a technique that completes the category.  For example, you have a technique against a right punch.  Then you have inside/outside, hands up/hands down etc. etc.
> 
> As with a lot of the material (ie: many of the "2" sets) that was added in as filler material, practicing the self-defense techniques on both sides was filler material to give students more stuff to do.
> 
> The system is designed for a right hand dominant person.  The left side is the support side, while the right side is the dominant side.  It doesn't mean that you don't use the left side, but it will always support the majority of action on the right side. Practicing on both sides can be a useful exercise, and some techniques may fit your style/approach better, but I think it is a waste of time to require the techniques to be done on both sides like that when they are designed for a purpose and there are others that address it from the other side already.


In a sense, the opposite side is a totally different technique idea.


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## punisher73

Touch Of Death said:


> In a sense, the opposite side is a totally different technique idea.



Yep, based on the premise that we are mostly wired for a dominant side and a support side.  The other basis is that it is designed with a right hand dominant defender against a right hand dominant attacker.


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## BUCKNAKEDBULLFROG

I am curious if you do up blocks or down blocks not using the lead leg as in zenkutsu dachi


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## Touch Of Death

BUCKNAKEDBULLFROG said:


> I am curious if you do up blocks or down blocks not using the lead leg as in zenkutsu dachi


We don't use that stance. It will blow out your knee.


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## BUCKNAKEDBULLFROG

Touch Of Death said:


> We don't use that stance. It will blow out your knee.


I meant during kata?


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## Touch Of Death

BUCKNAKEDBULLFROG said:


> I meant during kata?


The rule of thumb is to align your bracing leg with the main blocking arm.


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## Kickboxer101

There's no reason why you can't practice both sides of techniques in your own time during your own personal training outside of class but in class it's just a waste of time to be honest because you won't get through as much stuff each lesson if everyone's basically doing the technique at least twice and then some will get confused and then it'll have to be demonstrated etc just not worth it in class but by all practicing it on your own doesn't hurt


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## Gerry Seymour

Kickboxer101 said:


> There's no reason why you can't practice both sides of techniques in your own time during your own personal training outside of class but in class it's just a waste of time to be honest because you won't get through as much stuff each lesson if everyone's basically doing the technique at least twice and then some will get confused and then it'll have to be demonstrated etc just not worth it in class but by all practicing it on your own doesn't hurt


I should hope everyone is doing each new technique far more than twice, anyway, in order to actually learn it. If they simply split the repetitions between the two sides, it doesn't take longer. And it is my experience that students often make different mistakes on each side, so fixing one side often doesn't mean the other side is right. Mistakes that are made only on one side tell me something different than mistakes made on both sides.


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## Sami Ibrahim

Good Evening, 

          I just want to share how I look at this topic. Each basic element of my sequence has a certain amount of versatility, for example the front snap kick in Delayed Sword can attack other targets if they are available, the hammer does not have to go to the radial nerve, etc. as my training partner alters the prescribed attack or deviates from the prescribed reactions in the ideal script I rely on the versatility of the basic elements to be effective. What this means for me is that I don't have to switch to my other side if my training partner goes off script, sometimes the training partner attacking with the "other side" ends up making the conventional sequence even more destructive. That does not mean that I don't advocate keeping a balance of ability with the weapons on both sides of my body. When one side is injured I find that being well versed on the other side very helpful in surviving. I do see that some of my ideal phase techniques are just the left or right versions of themselves but the nature of the attack is usually a little different, I think that was intentionally done so that students would realize how versatile these Kenpo basics really are. 

Sami Ibrahim


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