# Experiencing MA through the eyes of a Kung Fu San Soo practitioner



## ItstheFNG (Jul 10, 2013)

*Disclaimer - I am just one person, and I am presenting my opinions and thoughts in a straightforward and honest way. I am well aware that this opens me to ridicule, but in doing so, use discretion please. I am biased, just as you are, reader. If you are too close-minded to view other's opinions, I encourage you to stop reading now.

I recently moved from my hometown to Raleigh area, NC. I did Kung Fu San Soo for 6 years leading up to my departure and have earned the rank of first degree black belt (one rank above black in my school). Naturally, I want to expand my horizons for MA, and this is a wonderful place to do so. As of this post (7/10/2013) I have been to four different schools and tried four different martial arts. (In this order.)
Kali
Aikido
Wing Chun
Krav Maga

Presented are my opinions and experiences of each art.

Kali - The first art I tried in the new area. All things considered, a very professional school and instructors. That class no stick fighting was worked on, however I was made aware of that it was the week leading up to testing, and only hand fighting and knives were worked that class. I learned several knife defense and offence techniques, as well as an open hand technique. The knives were great. 

The open hand technique was... different than I am used to. It worked off of a left-right combination. You swat the first jab, then crossblock with your right to theirs and backfist the opponent's right bicep. Then you advance and left elbow to the pec? Wasn't sure where the striking point was. From there, you rake their R eye with your thumb, continue the movement and grab the back of the neck, and R punch to the throat. The opening and elbow were weird for me, however, enjoyable. Class finished and I was encouraged to move on to the Aikido class in the next room (two MA's in one building).

Overall, I enjoyed the class very much, and would consider taking classes but for one problem, $129 a month for two classes a week. That doesn't enthrall me.
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Aikido - We started warming up by stretching the joints that would be cranked on, then started some rolls (which I love). I made my first enemy soon, as an obese green belt got pissed off that some random newcomer had an easier time dive rolling. I shrugged that off. This class was testing that day, so I watched them test with some techniques. The strikes were either from weapons (sword, stick) or from a ridiculous and exaggerated overhead chop. Then they displayed their chi, and even had me try. That was fun, and obviously I sucked at it having never experienced it. It was entertaining and a good learning experience. After that, they tested defense against strikes (kicks and punches). One of which (off of a roundhouse kick) was a defense almost identical to one that KFSS practices. Then came the multiple attackers.

Here is where I will piss some people off. It was laughable to say the least. To those of you who don't know, Aikido does not use strikes, all redirection and momentum (usually in a circular pattern). I watched the students struggle with it, and then the instructor had a go at it. Honestly (remember, I said I would be honest), a yellow belt in San Soo have an easier and more effective time handling multiple attackers. I don't know if it is the art or the instructor, but it was wildly ineffective. Then they had me have a go at it, but no strikes. I had a helluva time with that. I got punched quite hard in the face, but it was fun! I still deem it as ineffective and outdated. 

The rolls were fun to do in the class, but overall the art (or at least how it was taught there, ever the optimist) is not practical for self defense (remember - in my biased opinion). 
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Wing Chun - This place sucked to find. Out in the middle of nowhere in a small and ****** warehouse. I walked in, introduced myself to the instructor and was told to sit on a bench. I waited about 20 minutes, and in that time another prospective student came as well. Meanwhile, class started. After what seemed an eternity, the instructor came out, and asked my why I was there. To which I replied, "I am interested in your art, coming from a self defense art, yours seems good." He asked and I told him KFSS, to which he then argued with me that it was Sanda, or San Shou, a tournament art. I blatantly told him he was wrong. Not off to a great start. I will link you to a recent thread I posted on (second page) about the rest of the experience in depth. The rest of this will be a summary. 

The instructor told me multiple times that what I have been taught, and what I have taught is wrong, arrogance tainting his demeanor. The whole time was him telling us about how Wing Chun is perfect for any situation, with many holes in his logic. It was all an elaborate sales pitch geared towards newcomers to martial arts. Once he told us how a kick is not practical for the head, and that it only reaches as far as a punch (what?). I called him on his ******** and he talked his way out of the corner multiple times, often changing the subject. I let it go. After he was done pitching, the newcomer left, and I stayed for the remainder of class. It was a steep challenge for me to say the least. It is extremely different. Instead of being tight, tucking your chin and having hands protecting the face, hands are down, extended out, and head high. I won't go through it completely, but I sucked at it, but enjoyed it. Everyone in the class was super helpful. My only issue is that I have an injured ankle and their stance was a little painful.

I enjoyed Wing Chun, but disliked the instructor/owner. In another school, I might do it. But there are no others in the Raleigh area. So I will not be taking classes from him. 

Here is the thread - http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php/62956-New-to-MA-Question-about-a-school-instructor
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Krav Maga - I enjoyed this greatly. Bare with me, as this might get a little confusing. Also, be prepared to hate me as I get very hypocritical. The class was a great workout, the instructor/owner a very nice and respectable guy. Those that I worked with were great as well. The core of the class was based around a technique involving escape from a headlock. The same escape I learned 6 years ago as a white belt and have been reviewing occasionally since. Upon inquisition of the instructor after, most classes in level 1 (beginners) are like this, centered around someone grabbing you, choking, whatever. Here is the kicker: it is too similar to KFSS. But it isn't in an environment that I can progress in. I have to stay level 1 for up to five months. I feel that in the level 1 class, just reviewing things that were learned as a white belt in KFSS, my skills would regress severely. I know that is arrogant, but it is true. I didn't learn anything tonight, and I don't feel like committing my time to possibly get something new in a class a month down the line isn't worth it. I feel I should be taking a martial art that complements and increases my skills, not review what I know. This is not bashing Krav, or even the school. It really is a case of, "it's not you, it's me." 

So my quest forges on for a suitable martial art to my liking. I will try some Jiu-Jitsu, possibly another style of Kung Fu, and maybe even TKD (this area is dripping with TKD). I hope that this has given you some insight to the mind of a KFSS guy. 

I will update this as I try other arts.


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## K-man (Jul 11, 2013)

Not sure if you were looking for a response or not but, for what it's worth I'll give you some feedback.

Kali ... I did for a few years as an additional art to my karate. I enjoyed it also but never really looked at it as being my full time MA. As to the cost ... $129/month seems reasonable for quality instruction. (I pay over $200 a month for my twice weekly aikido.)

Aikido ... can I suggest you look at a second time and maybe another school. Your impressions are a long way from what my Aikido training gives me. To use aikido fo self defence takes some time. Aikido combined with your kung fu should mean that you can gradually utilise those techniques within your kung fu practice. The two arts are complementary.

Let's address some misunderstandings. You say;_ "The strikes were either from weapons (sword, stick) or from *a ridiculous and exaggerated overhead chop*."_  Firstly shomenuchi is used as a teaching tool. Aikido is heavily influenced by sword and this is linked to that. However, it is also an atemi that is used in dealing with other attacks. It involves using two hands so if the guys were running around with one hand up and the other at their side, then it is the instructor at fault, not the art. As an aside, in karate we use that strike often and performed properly it will leave your opponent on the ground in a bad way. It utilises Kyusho if performed properly.

You go on to say;_ "To those of you who don't know, *Aikido does not use strikes*, all redirection and momentum."  
_That is totally false. Almost all aikido techniques incorporate atemi or striking. If it is not being shown, again it is the instructor, not the art. The more advanced your aikido becomes, the less you need to physically strike.

Ki (chi is the Chinese word), in aikido is an interesting concept. I would like to here more of your experience here. Most aikido schools pay it lip service only.

And finally, the multiple attacker thing. It is again a tool to react quickly to different attacks. At a reasonable level it works ok but at lower levels it can be ineffectual and cumbersome. Don't let it cloud your ideas of aikido. In a good school, aikido is a dynamic and effective MA.

WC if have not seen enough to really comment and being short of time, perhaps I will leave the KM comment for later.
:asian:


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## Cyriacus (Jul 11, 2013)

Can you describe that elbow to the pectoral muscle to me a bit? Namely where you are when you do it? Because i smell a takedown.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 11, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> Can you describe that elbow to the pectoral muscle to me a bit? Namely where you are when you do it? Because i smell a takedown.


Explaining in Kung Fu terms, a deep left horse. The left leg is past his right. I didn't understand it at all. It was a left elbow by the way, and a left backhand to the bicep. Let me re-explain it, opponent throws left-right, swat their jab with your right, cross block with your right and at the same time it is a left backfist to the bicep. Then you move in and left elbow from your previous position.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Explaining in Kung Fu terms, a deep left horse. The left leg is past his right. I didn't understand it at all. It was a left elbow by the way, and a left backhand to the bicep. Let me re-explain it, opponent throws left-right, swat their jab with your right, cross block with your right and at the same time it is a left backfist to the bicep. Then you move in and left elbow from your previous position.



That sounds... complicated for Krav. I smell some strangeness. Youre right to find it odd. *nods
At first i thought it might have been a takedown using the arm as a lever, but that wouldnt work at all from the position youre in. Krav is usually rooted in its own simplicity.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 11, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> That sounds... complicated for Krav. I smell some strangeness. Youre right to find it odd. *nods
> At first i thought it might have been a takedown using the arm as a lever, but that wouldnt work at all from the position youre in. Krav is usually rooted in its own simplicity.



You are right to find that weird for Krav, because I learned it in Kali!


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 11, 2013)

K-man said:


> Not sure if you were looking for a response or not but, for what it's worth I'll give you some feedback.
> 
> Kali ... I did for a few years as an additional art to my karate. I enjoyed it also but never really looked at it as being my full time MA. As to the cost ... $129/month seems reasonable for quality instruction. (I pay over $200 a month for my twice weekly aikido.)
> 
> ...



I apologize for my ignorance on the matter, I am just relaying my experience with that instructor. He continually harped on not using strikes, and nobody was using strikes, low belt or high. The Ki demonstration was interesting. First way was to stand face to face with a partner. You then placed your fully extended arm on his shoulder, and prepared yourself. Then the partner pulled down on your elbow joint as hard as possible. I failed miserably, the instructor and a green belt were quite good at it. The next was to stand squared off against two partners. You then extended your forearm at a 45 degree angle against their inside shoulders. Then, keeping the arms at the same angle, you simply walk forward and overpower the partners. Again, those two did great, and they even said I did well at it.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> You are right to find that weird for Krav, because I learned it in Kali!



I think i need a cup of coffee. *hides*


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## Mauthos (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Explaining in Kung Fu terms, a deep left horse. The left leg is past his right. I didn't understand it at all. It was a left elbow by the way, and a left backhand to the bicep. Let me re-explain it, opponent throws left-right, swat their jab with your right, cross block with your right and at the same time it is a left backfist to the bicep. Then you move in and left elbow from your previous position.




Oddly parts of that remind me of some Kenpo techniques as we do tend to like to come up under the arm and drive an elbow deep into someones ribs or chest.  However, the way you describe it I struggle to see how you would generate much power with both the backfist and the elbow from the position you are in and the right cross block could make the movements awkward.  Therefore I am with the other guys in saying that you found it odd.  

Maybe it works better if the strikes and blocks are replaced by blocking and striking with the Kali sticks, but hey never tried Kali, so no idea really, just spitballing.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Explaining in Kung Fu terms, a deep left horse. The left leg is past his right. I didn't understand it at all. It was a left elbow by the way, and a left backhand to the bicep. Let me re-explain it, opponent throws left-right, swat their jab with your right, cross block with your right and at the same time it is a left backfist to the bicep. Then you move in and left elbow from your previous position.



I'm far from an expert in Kali, but I've had enough experience to make a guess at what you're describing.

The backhand to the bicep is a limb destruction aimed at the brachial nerve.  If it lands on target then it doesn't require much power to really inflict pain and discourage the other guy from throwing punches.  The tricky part is having that kind of precision in the stress of a real fight.  I don't think many people have that kind of reliable accuracy under fire.  In fairness though, these limb-destructions are reasonably low-risk maneuvers that you don't have to commit much to.  You just toss them in while you are parrying/blocking/avoiding your opponent's attacks and if one of them happens to hit where it's supposed to then it will take a lot of the oomph out of his punches.

The elbow strike to the pec is probably a spearing action powered by your advancing body weight.  If your opponent is still coming forward, then he adds his own weight to the impact.  This sets up a lot of close range tactics, including possible takedowns.

BTW - my compliments on being willing to try out a variety of new arts with an open mind.  Some additional thoughts:

$129/month for 2xweek training may or not be that steep for the area you are in.  I've certainly seen worse.

I've seen instructors like the WC guy you describe in a lot of arts.  They're pretty obnoxious.  Master Ken didn't pull that schtick out of nowhere.

The "ki" stunts that they were showing you in the aikido class are parlor tricks.  I don't practice aikido, but I can do them.  

I wouldn't necessarily dismiss the Krav Maga class just because you know the techniques already.  I'm still going back to techniques I learned over a decade ago and finding ways to improve my performance.  Of course, if you happen to the be in the mood for finding something totally new to expand your horizons, that is totally legit.

Good luck in your search for a new school.


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## jks9199 (Jul 11, 2013)

Part of the Krav Maga class experience was reflective of their teaching methodology.  Krav tends to put a real heavy emphasis on drilling and repetition of simple techniques, with increasing resistance or variance from training partners.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 11, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm far from an expert in Kali, but I've had enough experience to make a guess at what you're describing.
> 
> The backhand to the bicep is a limb destruction aimed at the brachial nerve.  If it lands on target then it doesn't require much power to really inflict pain and discourage the other guy from throwing punches.  The tricky part is having that kind of precision in the stress of a real fight.  I don't think many people have that kind of reliable accuracy under fire.  In fairness though, these limb-destructions are reasonably low-risk maneuvers that you don't have to commit much to.  You just toss them in while you are parrying/blocking/avoiding your opponent's attacks and if one of them happens to hit where it's supposed to then it will take a lot of the oomph out of his punches.
> 
> ...



Thanks for shedding some light on the Kali technique, what you said makes sense. $129/month sucks around here for the arts I have seen. WC was $75/month, 4 days a week.  Krav $89/month with unlimited access, meaning I could take three level 1 classes a day, and do the groundfighting class whenever I wanted. 

I just feel that reviewing stuff for the 5 months it takes to advance to level 2 is pointless. It isn't geared towards advancement of experienced martial artists, as I can only practice with beginners, no upper-level students. I can't even spar until level 2, nor would I have the chance to "try out" persay for the higher levels. In my art, it is highly encouraged for beginners to practice with upper-level students, as it brings a sense of realism to the high level (fighting an inexperienced person) and it advances the learning of the low-level much faster.

And, being an instructor, I don't agree with that way of teaching. I feel that advancement in skills is wonderful, however you can do it. Look at it this way, if a pitcher is tossed into the pro baseball game only throwing against high schoolers, he will suck and it will be hard for him to get anywhere because everyone hits off of him, whereas if he practices against athletes of that caliber, he will be much better suited for the pro game. What if those level 1 students, who have only practiced against beginners were to get in a fight against a TKD black belt? He would have no chance because he has been practicing how to get out of headlocks and grabs his whole time.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Thanks for shedding some light on the Kali technique, what you said makes sense. $129/month sucks around here for the arts I have seen. WC was $75/month, 4 days a week.  Krav $89/month with unlimited access, meaning I could take three level 1 classes a day, and do the groundfighting class whenever I wanted.
> 
> I just feel that reviewing stuff for the 5 months it takes to advance to level 2 is pointless. It isn't geared towards advancement of experienced martial artists, as I can only practice with beginners, no upper-level students. I can't even spar until level 2, nor would I have the chance to "try out" persay for the higher levels. In my art, it is highly encouraged for beginners to practice with upper-level students, as it brings a sense of realism to the high level (fighting an inexperienced person) and it advances the learning of the low-level much faster.
> 
> And, being an instructor, I don't agree with that way of teaching. I feel that advancement in skills is wonderful, however you can do it. Look at it this way, if a pitcher is tossed into the pro baseball game only throwing against high schoolers, he will suck and it will be hard for him to get anywhere because everyone hits off of him, whereas if he practices against athletes of that caliber, he will be much better suited for the pro game. What if those level 1 students, who have only practiced against beginners were to get in a fight against a TKD black belt? He would have no chance because he has been practicing how to get out of headlocks and grabs his whole time.



Yeah, sounds like that Krav Maga class might be a poor fit for you.  I'm a firm believer in constantly revisiting the basics, but I'm also a believer in allowing lower belts to interact and train with the upper belts.  If you were going to be practicing those basic techniques with high-level guys then you might pick up some new details, but if you only get to work with brand new beginners then you'll be the one who has to help them out.

With regards to your last point, I have a slightly different take.  In my opinion, "basics" should be those techniques which are going to be most applicable in the widest range of likely real-world scenarios.  I teach the beginner's BJJ class at my gym and I focus on situations which are most likely to come up in a real fight:  how to deal with haymakers, headlocks, football tackles, how to escape mount and side mount, how to protect against strikes from the top, how to get back to the feet, etc.  I don't teach them specific counters* for spinning hook kicks or flying armbars, because we have limited time and very few muggers are going to attack that way.  The idea is to first teach beginners those skills which will cover them in 90% of situations, then once they have a solid handle on those skills they can start work on the remaining 10%.  

*(I do teach principles which will come in handy once they are ready to start working on countering those more esoteric attacks.)


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2013)

Interesting thread. Always interesting to hear what others experience as they find there path in the martial arts. As a Wing Chun/Escrima instructor, I'm sorry to hear about your negative experience with the school you visited. I've run into that kind of stuff myself all too often in WC as well as in other arts. Fortunately, not everybody thinks like that.

Interesting variation in pricing too. Actually, the rate for the WC was very reasonable ...probably possible because of the out-of-the-way warehouse location. On the other hand the Kali seemed a bit steep at $129 a month. That's about what the head instructor of our organization charges and he's a master-ranked expert with experience training all over the world. I on the other hand am so embarrassingly cheap that I have to keep it quiet, since I charge below my organization's minimum fees for my rank and time in the art. 

...But then I don't teach for a living and I only rent indoor studio space one day a week. I teach outside at a park the other two days. At our last outdoor class it was well above 100 degrees and I had a great time. My students think  I'm nuts! But then I'll drink my water out of a garden hose instead of paying for bottled water and all kinds of other crazy stuff like that. :burp:

Anyway, please keep on posting and let us know where you end up and how it turns out.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 11, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> I just feel that reviewing stuff for the 5 months it takes to advance to level 2 is pointless. It isn't geared towards advancement of experienced martial artists, as I can only practice with beginners, no upper-level students. I can't even spar until level 2, nor would I have the chance to "try out" persay for the higher levels. In my art, it is highly encouraged for beginners to practice with upper-level students, as it brings a sense of realism to the high level (fighting an inexperienced person) and it advances the learning of the low-level much faster.
> 
> And, being an instructor, I don't agree with that way of teaching. I feel that advancement in skills is wonderful, however you can do it. Look at it this way, if a pitcher is tossed into the pro baseball game only throwing against high schoolers, he will suck and it will be hard for him to get anywhere because everyone hits off of him, whereas if he practices against athletes of that caliber, he will be much better suited for the pro game. What if those level 1 students, who have only practiced against beginners were to get in a fight against a TKD black belt? He would have no chance because he has been practicing how to get out of headlocks and grabs his whole time.



I can't comment on the particular experience that you had, but I'll say this much: there's something to be said about recognizing that in the new system, you are a beginner.  In that context, the fact that you have prior training means nothing.  In fact, it is possible that it could be more of a liability than an asset.  It just really depends.  So if you are going to start training in a new system, you might just want to embrace being a beginner in that system and do your best to learn that system on its own merits, and not turn it into simply modified san soo.  Later, after you've built some skill and knowledge and experience with the new system, then you can experiment with how it might (or might not) mix with your prior training.  But that comes later, it's definitely NOT what you ought to be doing in the beginning.  If you expect to advance more rapidly because of your prior training, that just might not be appropriate.  But ultimately, it depends.


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## Stargazer (Jul 11, 2013)

Thank you for posting your experiences.  No offense taken at all.  I'm kind of in the same boat.  I have a background in martial arts and am looking for a new school.  I've looked at Kali, Kempo, Wushu, traditional Japanese arts, and places I can only describe as "what the heck was that?". So I know where you're coming from.  I've seen the scammers too - usually they'll make you feel uncomfortable within the first few minutes because of too high costs, weird contracts, or generalized sketchiness.  For me I want a comprehensive, effective program, but it's hard to find.  Am thinking of cross training until I figure it out.  What do you plan to do?  Again, thanks for the cool post.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 11, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I can't comment on the particular experience that you had, but I'll say this much: there's something to be said about recognizing that in the new system, you are a beginner.  In that context, the fact that you have prior training means nothing.  In fact, it is possible that it could be more of a liability than an asset.  It just really depends.  So if you are going to start training in a new system, you might just want to embrace being a beginner in that system and do your best to learn that system on its own merits, and not turn it into simply modified san soo.  Later, after you've built some skill and knowledge and experience with the new system, then you can experiment with how it might (or might not) mix with your prior training.  But that comes later, it's definitely NOT what you ought to be doing in the beginning.  If you expect to advance more rapidly because of your prior training, that just might not be appropriate.  But ultimately, it depends.



From my experience with the class, and thorough questioning of the owner, the level 1 class ultimately is what I experienced in that class. You have to look at it from my perspective, you are trying new martial arts, in the previous three, you have learned or experienced something new. Then you go to another art, and experience something identical to what you just trained a third of your life in and told that you have to start anew. It is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of actually GETTING SOMETHING out of what I am paying for. I would be perfectly fine with being level 1 if I were able to work with higher levels and be allowed to spar. Upon questioning why level 1 doesn't spar, I received this answer, "People in level 1 need to develop control before being allowed to spar." I didn't comment, but this was going through my mind, "What the hell do you think that I have been doing? In a martial art almost identical to yours, I would have quite developed control." 

I would also like to point out this from our email chain before I actually moved. Upon asking how similar it is to San Soo, "Krav is unlike anything else out there." 
No. You, sir, are wrong. It is quite similar to at least two martial arts I can name off of the top of my head, San Soo and Kenpo. There are others as well.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 11, 2013)

Stargazer said:


> Thank you for posting your experiences.  No offense taken at all.  I'm kind of in the same boat.  I have a background in martial arts and am looking for a new school.  I've looked at Kali, Kempo, Wushu, traditional Japanese arts, and places I can only describe as "what the heck was that?". So I know where you're coming from.  I've seen the scammers too - usually they'll make you feel uncomfortable within the first few minutes because of too high costs, weird contracts, or generalized sketchiness.  For me I want a comprehensive, effective program, but it's hard to find.  Am thinking of cross training until I figure it out.  What do you plan to do?  Again, thanks for the cool post.



I am done looking for something to continue my training in the "street fighting" self defense arts. My hopes died with Krav. Now I am looking for something to complement what I already know, Jiu-Jitsu to develop ground game perhaps. Or even TKD to help my kicks and experience a tournament setting.


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## K-man (Jul 11, 2013)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The "ki" stunts that they were showing you in the aikido class are parlor tricks.  I don't practice aikido, but I can do them.


Could I suggest that the 'ki display' that *ItstheFNG* described is an exercise to help understand and demonstrate the principles of ki rather than a demonstration of ki itself. It is neither a stunt nor a parlour trick although some people do treat it as such. If they were claiming that those demonstrations alone were evidence that they were using ki, then I would be sceptical.  Learning how to perform the exercise is like a person sitting in the cockpit of a flight simulator. It might look good but unless you can take off and land a real plane it doesn't mean you can fly. The next step is to demonstrate and use the ki within your martial art training. That is the equivalent of actually flying the plane, and unlike learning to fly, it takes years to achieve. :asian:


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## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> From my experience with the class, and thorough questioning of the owner, the level 1 class ultimately is what I experienced in that class. You have to look at it from my perspective, you are trying new martial arts, in the previous three, you have learned or experienced something new. Then you go to another art, and experience something identical to what you just trained a third of your life in and told that you have to start anew. It is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of actually GETTING SOMETHING out of what I am paying for. I would be perfectly fine with being level 1 if I were able to work with higher levels and be allowed to spar. Upon questioning why level 1 doesn't spar, I received this answer, "People in level 1 need to develop control before being allowed to spar." I didn't comment, but this was going through my mind, "What the hell do you think that I have been doing? In a martial art almost identical to yours, I would have quite developed control."
> 
> I would also like to point out this from our email chain before I actually moved. Upon asking how similar it is to San Soo, "Krav is unlike anything else out there."
> No. You, sir, are wrong. It is quite similar to at least two martial arts I can name off of the top of my head, San Soo and Kenpo. There are others as well.



well, I think you need to look at it from the perspective of the instructor.  You are a new student coming in to check out what he is teaching.  You are claiming some experience with other methods, but he doesn't know what your true skill level is.  So you are a newbie and he probably feels he needs time to assess your ability and how well your skills may or may not mesh with his methodology.  So he has you start as a beginner and he teaches you like you are a beginner so that he is certain that in his method, he is teaching you thoroughly and completely, and hasn't skipped over something based on a possibly false assumption that you already understand or know it.

I have no experience with Krav nor with san soo, so I cannot comment on how similar they may or may not be.  It is my experience however, that often things that might look similar on the surface, can have some subtle differences underneath it, and those subtleties can make all the difference in the world.  Those things take time and close attention to sort out.

So again, I suggest that if you decide to join another school, you embrace being a beginner in that school and do not assume nor expect to advance any faster than any other beginner, in that system.  If merited, you may advance faster.  But a lot of that depends on the instructor's judgement of what is the best way to approach your instruction.  And of course none of this means anything with regard to your status or abilities with san soo.  It doesn't take anything away from that.


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## clfsean (Jul 12, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> well, I think you need to look at it from the perspective of the instructor.  You are a new student coming in to check out what he is teaching.  You are claiming some experience with other methods, but he doesn't know what your true skill level is.  So you are a newbie and he probably feels he needs time to assess your ability and how well your skills may or may not mesh with his methodology.  So he has you start as a beginner and he teaches you like you are a beginner so that he is certain that in his method, he is teaching you thoroughly and completely, and hasn't skipped over something based on a possibly false assumption that you already understand or know it.
> 
> I have no experience with Krav nor with san soo, so I cannot comment on how similar they may or may not be.  It is my experience however, that often things that might look similar on the surface, can have some subtle differences underneath it, and those subtleties can make all the difference in the world.  Those things take time and close attention to sort out.
> 
> So again, I suggest that if you decide to join another school, you embrace being a beginner in that school and do not assume nor expect to advance any faster than any other beginner, in that system.  If merited, you may advance faster.  But a lot of that depends on the instructor's judgement of what is the best way to approach your instruction.  And of course none of this means anything with regard to your status or abilities with san soo.  It doesn't take anything away from that.



Nicely put.

I've been with my current teacher almost a year now. I've practiced one of the martial arts he teaches (Choy Lay Fut) for quite a while but a different branch. I'm a beginner in his school, but granted I move much easier & comprehend far more than the other students there. Did my ego (which yes, that's the problem I'm seeing here) get in the way?? Hell no!! He has something good to bring to the table, I can clean off my plate to take part in it. 

Best thing I can tell you from what I've read, check your ego & your black belt at the door. If you're going into somebody else's house, you play under there rules. Or don't. Your call, but don't expect special treatment from lots of places due to past experience. Most of the time it doesn't matter, it can just give you a head start in comprehension of the new material.


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## jks9199 (Jul 12, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> From my experience with the class, and thorough questioning of the owner, the level 1 class ultimately is what I experienced in that class. You have to look at it from my perspective, you are trying new martial arts, in the previous three, you have learned or experienced something new. Then you go to another art, and experience something identical to what you just trained a third of your life in and told that you have to start anew. It is not a matter of pride, it is a matter of actually GETTING SOMETHING out of what I am paying for. I would be perfectly fine with being level 1 if I were able to work with higher levels and be allowed to spar. Upon questioning why level 1 doesn't spar, I received this answer, "People in level 1 need to develop control before being allowed to spar." I didn't comment, but this was going through my mind, "What the hell do you think that I have been doing? In a martial art almost identical to yours, I would have quite developed control."
> 
> I would also like to point out this from our email chain before I actually moved. Upon asking how similar it is to San Soo, "Krav is unlike anything else out there."
> No. You, sir, are wrong. It is quite similar to at least two martial arts I can name off of the top of my head, San Soo and Kenpo. There are others as well.



Considering that Krav Maga is a synthesis of the arts and experience of Eli Lichtenstein... Yeah, it's going to resemble a lot of other arts. 

Now, let's look for a minute at perspectives... You're starting in a new art, and you THINK you've seen the technique before. You haven't seen their presentation of it, their principles and tactics involving it. But you missed that because you already decided "I know this..." I spent a couple of hours with a student a few weeks back who was so locked in "I've already seen that" that he didn't realize that what we were showing him was different. He was closed off and, honestly, we finally gave up. We weren't going to get through to him. Make sure you don't fall into that trap as you continue your training.

Or, as another example, I've started working with a personal trainer to tweak my fitness and rehab some things. As we were going through yesterday's workout, he didn't have to demonstrate most of the exercises because I'm not a novice exerciser... but I still made sure that what I heard him say was the exercise I thought. Like Dive bombers... there're about 4 ways to do this particular exercise. To get the benefit he wanted me to get, I had to make sure that the version I was doing was the one he wanted.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Considering that Krav Maga is a synthesis of the arts and experience of Eli Lichtenstein... Yeah, it's going to resemble a lot of other arts.
> 
> Now, let's look for a minute at perspectives... You're starting in a new art, and you THINK you've seen the technique before. You haven't seen their presentation of it, they're principles and tactics involving it. *But you missed that because you already decided "I know this..." *I spent a couple of hours with a student a few weeks back who was so locked in "I've already seen that" that he didn't realize that what we were showing him was different. He was closed off and, honestly, we finally gave up. We weren't going to get through to him. Make sure you don't fall into that trap as you continue your training.



It really begs the question: what is he doing in your class, if he "already knows it"?  If he's so committed to what he's done before and only sees things thru those lenses, then there's no reason to go to another school.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 12, 2013)

jks9199 said:


> Considering that Krav Maga is a synthesis of the arts and experience of Eli Lichtenstein...  Yeah, it's going to resemble a lot of other arts.
> 
> Now, let's look for a minute at perspectives...  You're starting in a new art, and you THINK you've seen the technique before.  You haven't seen their presentation of it, they're principles and tactics involving it.  But you missed that because you already decided "I know this..."  I spent a couple of hours with a student a few weeks back who was so locked in "I've already seen that" that he didn't realize that what we were showing him was different.  He was closed off and, honestly, we finally gave up.  We weren't going to get through to him.  Make sure you don't fall into that trap as you continue your training.
> 
> Or, as another example, I've started working with a personal trainer to tweak my fitness and rehab some things.  As we were going through yesterday's workout, he didn't have to demonstrate most of the exercises because I'm not a novice exerciser...  but I still made sure that what I heard him say was the exercise I thought.  Like Dive bombers... there're about 4 ways to do this particular exercise.  To get the benefit he wanted me to get, I had to make sure that the version I was doing was the one he wanted.



You don't understand, it is the exact same way we do it in San Soo. Person gets you in a headlock. Tuck your chin to the inside shoulder, and step out immediately. Slap the groin. Find their face, grab the hair or put your fingers under their nose. Force down as you stand up, hammerfist to the face or chest. EXACT same way we do it in San Soo. I have seen and actively participated in their technique, so you are already wrong. Have you done both arts? If you haven't you have no place telling me how similar they are or aren't, that goes with everyone else here too. Until you have actually experienced both arts, kindly keep quiet, as you are judging from a position that has no right to judge.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 12, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> It really begs the question: what is he doing in your class, if he "already knows it"?  If he's so committed to what he's done before and only sees things thru those lenses, then there's no reason to go to another school.



It really begs the question, have you even read my original post? Why don't you do me a favor and go read that, then amend your post sir.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 12, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Nicely put.
> 
> I've been with my current teacher almost a year now. I've practiced one of the martial arts he teaches (Choy Lay Fut) for quite a while but a different branch. I'm a beginner in his school, but granted I move much easier & comprehend far more than the other students there. Did my ego (which yes, that's the problem I'm seeing here) get in the way?? Hell no!! He has something good to bring to the table, I can clean off my plate to take part in it.
> 
> Best thing I can tell you from what I've read, check your ego & your black belt at the door. If you're going into somebody else's house, you play under there rules. Or don't. Your call, but don't expect special treatment from lots of places due to past experience. Most of the time it doesn't matter, it can just give you a head start in comprehension of the new material.



I really wonder if you guys have read my original post at all. This is the only damn case where this shows up. I didn't waltz into the ****ing Aikido school saying I am tough and have seen this before, the case IS LIMITED TO KRAV ALONE. So everyone, please for the love of God, stop making generalizations about me because of my experience with ONE ART, despite the fact that I presented FOUR. Holy **** people, lay off of the Krav for a bit.


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## clfsean (Jul 12, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> I really wonder if you guys have read my original post at all. This is the only damn case where this shows up. I didn't waltz into the ****ing Aikido school saying I am tough and have seen this before, the case IS LIMITED TO KRAV ALONE. So everyone, please for the love of God, stop making generalizations about me because of my experience with ONE ART, despite the fact that I presented FOUR. Holy **** people, lay off of the Krav for a bit.



Methinks thou dost protest too much ... <paraphrased>

In other words... 1 out of 4 ... 1 out of 400 ... it's not what you said but how you said it.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2013)

I think this guy is unteachable.  He already knows everything and he has the attitude that goes with it.

Good luck to him.  He'll need it.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 12, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I think this guy is unteachable.  He already knows everything and he has the attitude that goes with it.
> 
> Good luck to him.  He'll need it.



Once again, have you read my original post?


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## Tames D (Jul 12, 2013)

Another pile on. I love it.


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## The Last Legionary (Jul 12, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> *Disclaimer - I am just one person, and I am presenting my opinions and thoughts in a straightforward and honest way. I am well aware that this opens me to ridicule, but in doing so, use discretion please. I am biased, just as you are, reader. If you are too close-minded to view other's opinions, I encourage you to stop reading now.



Translation: I'm stating my opinion. Opinions that differ from mine should go away.  Works for me.

To the OP - You stated your opinion. This is a discussion forum. People are free to disagree with your opinion. I do. Disagreement is not close mindedness. But unlike others here, I don't care to engage beyond this. If you want a place where you can post and not deal with differing opinions, you should post on a blog. 

To anyone else continuing to post, this is an unofficial reminder to not attack the messenger. Forum Rules and what not.


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 12, 2013)

_ATTENTION ALL USERS:

_ Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy [url]http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=71377[/URL]. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

Mark Cochran
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## Flying Crane (Jul 12, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Once again, have you read my original post?




I'll give this one more shot.

Of course I read your original post.  Did you read my posts, and those of CLFSEAN and JKS9199?  Because you were actually getting some honest, clean advice, given in a reasonable tone.  We were pointing out that you might want to look at things a little differently, maybe you've missed something.  But you didn't like what you were hearing, so you got upset and started swearing in your follow-ups.  This is a discussion forum and members here can join in, even if you don't like what they have to say.  You can take the advice, or chose to disregard it.  That's your choice to make.  Nobody is cramming it down your throat.  But some of the people here have been around the block quite a number of times, and they know what they are talking about.  We are doing you a favor by giving you honest advice, rather than simply telling you what we think you want to hear.  Even when that advice is likely NOT what you want to here.  That's how some of the folks here roll.  We feel strongly about the training that we do and the systems that we love, and we will do our very best to never sell it short or mislead someone about what's reasonable.  

Again, you don't have to like the advice.  But taking it gracefully, even if you don't like it and chose to disregard it, would be a step toward an adult dialog.  And that will earn you more points for respect in these parts.  

take it as you will.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 12, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll give this one more shot.
> 
> Of course I read your original post.  Did you read my posts, and those of CLFSEAN and JKS9199?  Because you were actually getting some honest, clean advice, given in a reasonable tone.  We were pointing out that you might want to look at things a little differently, maybe you've missed something.  But you didn't like what you were hearing, so you got upset and started swearing in your follow-ups.  This is a discussion forum and members here can join in, even if you don't like what they have to say.  You can take the advice, or chose to disregard it.  That's your choice to make.  Nobody is cramming it down your throat.  But some of the people here have been around the block quite a number of times, and they know what they are talking about.  We are doing you a favor by giving you honest advice, rather than simply telling you what we think you want to hear.  Even when that advice is likely NOT what you want to here.  That's how some of the folks here roll.  We feel strongly about the training that we do and the systems that we love, and we will do our very best to never sell it short or mislead someone about what's reasonable.
> 
> ...



You will have to excuse me for, so to speak, losing it. I apologize for it. But your last post, regardless of how you meant it, was quite offensive.


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 13, 2013)

The Last Legionary said:


> Translation: I'm stating my opinion. Opinions that differ from mine should go away.  Works for me.
> 
> To the OP - You stated your opinion. This is a discussion forum. People are free to disagree with your opinion. I do. Disagreement is not close mindedness. But unlike others here, I don't care to engage beyond this. If you want a place where you can post and not deal with differing opinions, you should post on a blog.
> 
> To anyone else continuing to post, this is an unofficial reminder to not attack the messenger. Forum Rules and what not.



There is a pretty clear line between stating opinions and personally attacking the original poster. And my opinions, unlike some others (not all) were not directed at one person, whereas the statement, "He already knows everything and has the attitude that goes with it." has crossed the line in my book. 

Again, I apologize for getting out of control, but I do feel it was warranted to an extent, just not the extent I took it to.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 13, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> You will have to excuse me for, so to speak, losing it. I apologize for it. But your last post, regardless of how you meant it, was quite offensive.




as was yours.  The forum stars out swear words.  How many were in your last post?  Swearing doesn't bother me personally, I've got the worst potty mouth of any one I know.  But on the forums it's not allowed and it's not a decent way to engage in the discussions here.

So I'm cool if you're cool.  I've got no further issues.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 13, 2013)

Ive been to busy to do this until now. And i wanted to see how it panned out.



ItstheFNG said:


> I really wonder if you guys have read my original post at all. This is the only damn case where this shows up. I didn't waltz into the ****ing Aikido school saying I am tough and have seen this before, the case IS LIMITED TO KRAV ALONE. So everyone, please for the love of God, stop making generalizations about me because of my experience with ONE ART, despite the fact that I presented FOUR. Holy **** people, lay off of the Krav for a bit.



*your experience with one outlet.
Also, were discussing. If you dont want to discuss the Krav thing you dont have to. Its like if someone asks you a question face to face - Youre not obliged to answer and youre not obliged to be 'right'.



ItstheFNG said:


> It really begs the question, have you even read  my original post? Why don't you do me a favor and go read that, then  amend your post sir.



Everyone read your original post - Its your replies thatre being addressed.
Now for the fun part.



ItstheFNG said:


> You don't understand, it is the exact same way  we do it in San Soo. Person gets you in a headlock. Tuck your chin to  the inside shoulder, and step out immediately. Slap the groin. Find  their face, grab the hair or put your fingers under their nose. Force  down as you stand up, hammerfist to the face or chest. EXACT same way we  do it in San Soo. I have seen and actively participated in their  technique, so you are already wrong. Have you done both arts? If you  haven't you have no place telling me how similar they are or aren't,  that goes with everyone else here too. Until you have actually  experienced both arts, kindly keep quiet, as you are judging from a  position that has no right to judge.



Its also how just about every par for the course self defense school does defense against headlocks. Its either a groin slap + eye gouge thing followed by hammerfists, or its a bearhug around the hips/legs followed by a throw. 
Lemme present you with an optional scenario: You want to learn *new* solutions. If the solutions you already have are good, why on earth do you want to have more to choose from? Better solutions i could understand, but better solutions would be even more mundane. And you soon after say this:



ItstheFNG said:


> I am done looking for something to continue my  training in the "street fighting" self defense arts. My hopes died with  Krav. Now I am looking for something to complement what I already know,  Jiu-Jitsu to develop ground game perhaps. Or even TKD to help my kicks  and experience a tournament setting.



So dont try and put it down to wanting to learn different arts. Youre clearly filtering it through 'street fighting'. Self defense, 'street fighting', and so forth are all simple creatures because the 'solutions' to the 'problems' really are simple. When stuff gets complicated, you should smell a rat.

Also, we have every place to talk about things we havent experienced when its on a technical level.

One thing though: Tucking your chin to the inside of their shoulder gives them your carotid artery. Thats not good if their headlock is meant to choke you. Youve given them more neck to squeeze. Having your throat compressed is painful but it wont put you down as fast. Just move your whole head if possible. If theyre squeezing so tight you cant do that, you probably cant turn it either.



ItstheFNG said:


> From my experience with the class, and thorough  questioning of the owner, the level 1 class ultimately is what I  experienced in that class. You have to look at it from my perspective,  you are trying new martial arts, in the previous three, you have learned  or experienced something new. Then you go to another art, and  experience something identical to what you just trained a third of your  life in and told that you have to start anew. It is not a matter of  pride, it is a matter of actually GETTING SOMETHING out of what I am  paying for.



Again: Working solutions work, and other obvious truths. That being said...



> I would be perfectly fine with being level 1 if I were able  to work with higher levels and be allowed to spar. Upon questioning why  level 1 doesn't spar, I received this answer, "People in level 1 need to  develop control before being allowed to spar." I didn't comment, but  this was going through my mind, "What the hell do you think that I have  been doing? In a martial art almost identical to yours, I would have  quite developed control."



Well, you did spend three years doing what they do just for level 1 by the sounds of it. You cant expect to be jumped ahead due to your experience in a different system. Humans have this way of wanting to complicate simple things. Krav is about simple, recyclable solutions to different problems. Theres very little build up to any 'advanced' stuff, so much as applying the same stuff to different things. Thats Krav for you, at least most of the time.

Youre literally asking to be skipped ahead because you consider yourself to be more advanced than their beginners are, even though youve *never done their system before*. I guess ive got a green belt in TKD, i should be able to go get the equivelant in Shotokan, right? ...right?



> I would also like to point out this from our email chain before I actually moved. Upon asking how similar it is to San Soo, "Krav is unlike anything else out there."
> No. You, sir, are wrong. It is quite similar to at least two martial  arts I can name off of the top of my head, San Soo and Kenpo. There are  others as well.



Krav is pretty unique, mostly in its training methods. Technique isnt on the forefront. I cant speak for the outlet you went to, though. Because it should barely resemble San Soo OR Kenpo.

https://www.youtube.com/results?q=s...ent=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&gl=AU&sa=N&tab=w1
https://www.youtube.com/results?sea...j3j1.4.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.pMuurImig0E
https://www.youtube.com/results?sea....5j3.8.0...0.0...1ac.1.11.youtube.6rtMiRG67ag

60 seconds of research. 20 seconds for each one. Its blatantly obvious.



Now on a less debate themed note, calm yourself mate. You did state an unrealistic expectation or two, and you were called out on it. Take it on the chin, you dont need to 'defend yourself'. You will be better preserved by talking about it rather than jumping on people for calling you on it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 13, 2013)

*ItstheFNG* when I train with a new teacher.  I am there to learn how they do things.  I try to take any preconceived notions of what or how they do things and put them to the side.  I am there to experience how they do things and also what drives their martial practice. (principles, theories, etc.)  Quite often they show things that are similar to what I do but it might have a minor adjustment.  That adjustment may be an opening or window into a new area of improvement for me!  I certainly cannot expect to learn how they do things or even if I would enjoy training with them in just one class.   That takes a bit of time.  Usually I very, very carefully choose who I train with and then I am with them for a very long time.  So be careful with who you train with, take your time in finding a new school and understand that it may take awhile to find an instructor you wish to work with.   All of the ones you visited might not be right for you or maybe you need to take a second look!


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## ItstheFNG (Jul 13, 2013)

Yeah, I got all worked up over nothing and refused to take advice. I'm over it, clearly proved myself an ***, and will accept it for what it is. I will still update with experienced from other arts, I plan on trying TKD this week and hopefully Jiu-Jitsu.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 13, 2013)

ItstheFNG said:


> Yeah, I got all worked up over nothing and refused to take advice. I'm over it, clearly proved myself an ***, and will accept it for what it is. I will still update with experienced from other arts, I plan on trying TKD this week and hopefully Jiu-Jitsu.



Best of luck good sir


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 13, 2013)

Good luck and keep training!!!


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## arnisador (Jul 13, 2013)

Good luck! Please let us know how it goes!


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## Zero (Jul 15, 2013)

geezer said:


> ...But then I don't teach for a living and I only rent indoor studio space one day a week. I teach outside at a park the other two days. At our last outdoor class it was well above 100 degrees and I had a great time. My students think  I'm nuts! But then I'll drink my water out of a garden hose instead of paying for bottled water and all kinds of other crazy stuff like that. :burp:


I save bucks in the summer while on a run by going around drinking water out of other peoples' garden hoses (just to clarify, there is no inuendo in this for all those warped Limies!)


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