# Age of a Master



## FasterthanDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

Would you second guess a Grandmaster of an art or master of an art because of his/her age? Why? Here in Texas I have been laughed at, turned down and slandered because of my age and what I teach. I am 23 yrs old. And have been practicing CMA my whole life. The question is not what I know, or if I can use it, just my age. My age is used to base the other two questions. Please, your replies.


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## RHD (Jun 9, 2004)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> Would you second guess a Grandmaster of an art or master of an art because of his/her age? Why? Here in Texas I have been laughed at, turned down and slandered because of my age and what I teach. I am 23 yrs old. And have been practicing CMA my whole life. The question is not what I know, or if I can use it, just my age. My age is used to base the other two questions. Please, your replies.



It depends on what you do and how much you've done it.  Are you at age 23 calling yourself a grandmaster?  Is your CMA experience real hands on experience?  Or is it forms training?  Read the thread on Yee Chuan Tao.
Mike


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## Michael Billings (Jun 9, 2004)

Unfortunatly the title of Master implies a maturity level, which is seldom seen in 23 year olds who have not had extensive experience in military combat.  And NO, I was not mature enough to be a "Master" at 23, regardless of the years training.  Part of it is the label itself, implying mastery, not just over one's self or material, but of other more undefinable character traits.

 Hey, I don't care if you call yourself a master, just don't expect to get the respect of those who have been doing the Art for 40 or 50 years and still do not consider themselves the master, but the eternal student.

 Oss,
 -Michael


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## arnisandyz (Jun 9, 2004)

Sounds like the "young Lion". Although you possess the physical skills, some may say you haven't had enough time on this earth to temper it and develop your skills spiritually and mentally to be a leader.

 I wouldn't be so caught up in calling yourself Master or Grandmaster, just share your knowledge, learn from exeriences and live life. Before you know it, others may be referring to you as Master out of there own cognizance (of course you may be 60 years old by then!)


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## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2004)

Begin calling someone with great skill and many years of training and teaching "master" the day after he or she dies...

And even then, do so in isolated instances.  "That person was my teacher" should be the highest compliment.  With that degree of respect, the title "master" is as unnecessary as wings on pigs...

All titles do is serve the ego, and by the time someone deserves the title "master" they long ago outgrew the need for it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2004)

Anyone can call themselves master.  It is different when others call you one.  In the martial arts there are many people who claim to be masters, but anyone who brags about his skills and ability is not a master.

Most of the 'old masters' I've had the pleasure and privilage to meet don't consider themselves 'masters', but 'students'.  

Age is not necessarily any more a sign of a 'master' than a black belt is.  For some, a solid lineage is a key component, for others, a colored belt, for others it is grey hair.

A true master shows the way...a wannabe spends all day shouting 'look how good I am'.

:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Jun 9, 2004)

Matt Stone said:
			
		

> Begin calling someone with great skill and many years of training and teaching "master" the day after he or she dies...



kind of ironic that the "name" of the person who posted this is 'FasterthanDeath"...perhaps we should slow down and concentrate on the roads leading to Mastery rather than the title itself.


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## Dronak (Jun 9, 2004)

Well, in the classes I took, we called our teacher "master" and he called his teacher, his master, our grandmaster.  I'm not sure of their exact ages, but I think our master was around mid 30s and his master somewhere around 70.  The only caveat he gave us was should we ever meet his classmates or travel to Taiwan with him, not to call him "master" -- use "coach" or "teacher" or something else.  He said that he was the youngest in his group to start teaching and I think he didn't want to make his seniors feel like he had passed them.  It was probably to continue to show respect to his seniors -- if they're not masters, he shouldn't be either.  But I thought the terms were used in a generational sense because of the way we were introduced to them, not a level of ability sense.  I suppose it can go either way.

If you're using it in an ability sense, then you're basically right that it depends more on your ability than age.  But as others noted, with age comes maturity, something you probably need to achieve mastery of a subject.  It also brings more experience, practice, training, knowledge, etc.  Can you truly master a subject by the age of 23 even if you've studied it most of your life?  Maybe, but I'm not so sure.  There's really nothing left for you to learn?  You've mastered it all?

I think Kaith has a good point, too, that people who are basically masters of their art still don't see themselves that way and feel there is always more to learn.  I'm sure they do recognize the level of knowledge and skill they have, are aware that this can lead them to be a good teacher, but they probably won't consider themselves masters if they feel there is more they can learn, some aspect that they haven't fully mastered yet.

Also as noted, anyone can declare themselves a Master or Grandmaster if they really want to.  Unless there's something to back it up, a title alone doesn't mean much.  If people see a 23 year old calling themselves a grandmaster of a martial art, I can understand why they'd question it.  I'd probably question it, too.  Sure, skill is certainly important but if you're seriously studying a subject, you'll only improve as you get older, right?


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## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2004)

Dronak said:
			
		

> Well, in the classes I took, we called our teacher "master" and he called his teacher, his master, our grandmaster.



What style was this?  TKD calls pretty much anybody a master after a certain belt rank, then their titles get pretty weird...



> I'm not sure of their exact ages, but I think our master was around mid 30s and his master somewhere around 70.



I'm 35, and have been training for 18 years.  I'd *never* allow someone to call me master...  For that matter, I don't even let my students call me "sifu" since that means "master teacher/father."


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## Dronak (Jun 9, 2004)

The handout we got when we started called our style "Northern Long Fist Shaolin Kung Fu".  It still sounds kind of vague to me, but apparently that's it.  Our teacher has been training for at least 18 years; I think it was about that long a few years ago when we got our initial handouts from the club so it must be over 20 years now.  I know what you mean, being called master at that age would probably seem odd to me, too.  It might at any age, actually.  But this is how we were doing things.  I just figured this is how it was always done with this style/lineage, and they did seem to be used for generations rather than abilities, so it didn't bother me.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 9, 2004)

A title is just a title, if your looking for the title your own the wrong course anyways. I would probably think strange of anyone referring to themselves as master or grandmaster. If its from someone else I can accept it better, but from yourself, its kind of off track. My sigung (teacher's teacher) had black belts in 3 arts before starting to study kung fu 40 years ago. He still doesn't refer to himself as master. 



On another note, sifu is simply the word for teacher. Calling someone your sifu is correct, its not translated to father or master as many believe.


7sm


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## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> On another note, sifu is simply the word for teacher. Calling someone your sifu is correct, its not translated to father or master as many believe.



While it is not translated as "master teacher/father," when you read the Chinese characters that is precisely the relationship they convey.  *Si* can mean "teacher; master; tutor," or "a specialist, especially of medicine, painting, music, divining, etc."  *Fu* can mean "tutor; teacher," or simply "to teach."  Taken together, there is the implicit connotation of mastery of the subject being taught.

I can't recall the characters for "lao shi," otherwise I'd look them up as well...  But when I took Chinese in college, our teacher had us refer to her as "Lin Lao Shi" (Teacher Lin), not "Lin Sifu."  And she had a master's degree in Chinese...

Whatever, to each their own in the end I suppose.  I still won't let folks use the word to refer to me...  At least not until after I'm dead (because then I won't care).


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 9, 2004)

Fu also translates into "man".

Kung - Working  Fu - Man

Kung Fu - Hard Work

Sifu just means Teacher, or "Kung Fu Father or Mother" Not literal father.


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

Let me say that not even in my post did I ever call myself master or grandmaster. That is a title given to me by others who see what I do and learn my belt ranking. I have never called myself master and dont allow anyone else to either. I do believe that anyone who calls themselves that is going for the "look at me I am the greatest" motiff that alot of people in the MA community have and or going for. Let me give you the specifics of what I am referring to. When I enter a AAU tournament or an AOK tournament here in texas, they ask for belt rank, and ask for the school you attend. I give them both, they get their reference and then they begin giving me excuses and lies to what I call "Embarrassment" at their own tournaments. When I go to seminars, when I attend special tournaments, clincs, or any other MA event. I am a simple hide in the corner hope that noone recongnizes me and tried to enjoy the seminar. People didnt want to train with me, and when they did in some way shape or form, I embarrassed them because I knew what I was doing. I dont look for respect on how much I know. Just what I know. I have seen shaolin children destroy and move like noother person on the planet can. One of my good friends who I consider to be a CMA goddess, told me one day that those Shoalin kids arent human, their aliens. (Of course not in an insulting way, in a very much impressed way.) And she trained with them!!! Noone questions their ability or knowledge of the information. You can call me Grandjanitor for all I care, but I do know just as much as they do. And I can prove it. But still, after I get done telling you, showing you, and even impressing you it just comes back to my age. I am not a master folks, thats what others call me, then they doubt what they just said. Please, more replies, I find this to be a great thread right now!!!


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 9, 2004)

my biggest problem with it was not the title guys, it was the fact that I was challenged. Others know me by this title. I really dont care. I just find it kind of childish for other people who are in the MA to actually sterotype people and their ability. I thought we all lost that when we learn that anyone can be deadly. Or that anyone can hurt you. But now that I really think about it, Life never really changes, it just repeats. And probably to the day I die their will be people who will laugh and joke and doubt me, but that wasnt the problem, it was the fact that when they learned one piece of data that doesnt effect the other, I went to being nothing. But thats everyone. And arnis, I have never stopped concentrating on the road to mastery, the truth is we never stop learning. And we can never be a master if we never stop learning.


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## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> Fu also translates into "man".
> 
> Kung - Working  Fu - Man
> 
> ...



Do you speak Chinese?  Just curious...  Where do you draw your conclusions from?  Try looking here.

You'll find that "sifu" isn't spelled the way you think it is.  Same sound you are citing, but different character.



> Let me say that not even in my post did I ever call myself master or grandmaster. That is a title given to me by others who see what I do and learn my belt ranking.



I'm sorry, I'm not intending to be discourteous, but...  you're 23.  I don't care how good your physical skills may be, you simply cannot have sufficient life experience, sufficient intellectual understanding, sufficient education (be it martial or otherwise) to warrant the title "master."  Those who you say use it in reference to you either don't know any better or are too deluded by their fantasy version of martial arts practice.  It would be best for you to discourage their use of such a term - that would be winning half your battle for acceptance.



> I have never called myself master and dont allow anyone else to either.



You just said that others use that term when referring to you.  Which is it?  I'm getting confused...   :idunno: 



> Let me give you the specifics of what I am referring to. When I enter a AAU tournament or an AOK tournament here in texas, they ask for belt rank, and ask for the school you attend.



So what would they be?  Please share with us...



> I give them both, they get their reference and then they begin giving me excuses and lies to what I call "Embarrassment" at their own tournaments. When I go to seminars, when I attend special tournaments, clincs, or any other MA event. I am a simple hide in the corner hope that noone recongnizes me and tried to enjoy the seminar. People didnt want to train with me, and when they did in some way shape or form, I embarrassed them because I knew what I was doing.



You "know what you are doing," but that doesn't mean you do so in a spectacular manner...  Please elaborate...



> I dont look for respect on how much I know. Just what I know.



Yet it seems that you are still looking for something...  You say the title "master" doesn't concern you, yet you start a thread about when a person can be considered a master...  You say you aren't concerned with the opinions of others, that you don't demand their respect, but then you describe how upset you get when you aren't recognized for your training...  You are playing both sides of the fence...  poorly.



> I have seen shaolin children destroy and move like noother person on the planet can.



While some of the children training in Shaolin gymnastics in the PRC are quite talented, I seriously doubt their ability to fight against a grown adult.  I doubt they can "destroy" at will anything beyond another child...



> One of my good friends who I consider to be a CMA goddess, told me one day that those Shoalin kids arent human, their aliens. (Of course not in an insulting way, in a very much impressed way.) And she trained with them!!! Noone questions their ability or knowledge of the information. You can call me Grandjanitor for all I care, but I do know just as much as they do. And I can prove it. But still, after I get done telling you, showing you, and even impressing you it just comes back to my age. I am not a master folks, thats what others call me, then they doubt what they just said. Please, more replies, I find this to be a great thread right now!!!



Again, you are trying to be recognized as a master while trying to convince us all that you don't lay claim to being one (though you turn 180 degrees and point out that you know enough to be a master nonetheless).  It is this immaturity, this inability to see through the superficial nature of titles and labels, that stands in your way of real progress.

Please, if you are ever in Washington State, visit our training group.  I would like to see the skills you possess...

 :asian:


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## Han-Mi (Jun 10, 2004)

Master is simply a title, however, you can understand how people feel when they see a 23 yr old master. It's the same mentality as when we see a 10 yr old black belt. We all no that in a practical situation the 10 yr old blackbelt is pretty much useless. As for the monk children, they devote their lives to training, something that is almost never (i say almost because there could be one person out there, but I don't really think so) duplicated in the U.S. Back to your problem, I suggest that you wear an unmarked belt or you refer to yourself as a black belt, or sash, whichever you have, when you refer to your rank. I understand you should not have to conceal your true rank, but after black belt, does it really matter? If you want to get rid of all the controversy, just stop talking about how great you are, and let your actions show it.

I'm not saying your not gifted and experienced, I'm just saying that I would be hesitant to take you seriously without seeing your skill. I would also have to talk to you for a while, we would share our philosiphies and discuss our arts and how they apply to life and all that good stuff. I just don't think the maturity required could have been attained in such a short time.
 And I am a 20 yr old 2nd dan BB waiting to be tested for my 3rd dan. I know age is not such an important factor, But i personally believe that there are certain experiences that you cannot have at such an early age.

Obviously, I could be wrong.


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

OK. 1. The reason I titled it that way is because that is how people title me. I dont want them to call me that. You misunderstood what I am trying to say. I was called one time 1 TIME master by a student of mine at a tournament. People just assume that if you are the head instructor you are the GM. 2. They say it like its a joke, very condensending like, As in OHHHH he is a master? AH! as they laugh. 3. Your telling me that I am playing both sides of the fence? Here let me clarify, When I said I know as much as they do. I meant the people who SLANDER what I teach. I do not mean the Masters. Never has a Self proclaimed or Proclaimed Master ever told me that I had no clue on what I was doing. 4. My problem was bigger than just me. I was talking about the politics and ego problems in MA. Alot of people laugh at you if you say you are a Judo practioner. Some at Ninjitsu. I find it very ironic that in a world of morality and discipline that it always goes back to I am bigger and badder than you. Thats what my problem is about. 5. How would you know if a ST kid could fight you? Ever seen one fight? A streetfight? Ever seen one lose? Being beat? I have seen all of that. In a city named Arlington there is a Temple where one of the sons of my teacher was attending for school. I have seen him win, lose and being beat by guys 2, 3 times his size. And as far as seeing my skills, you know enough to say I am a fool, so I am sure you know my skills too, or maybe that was just your immaturity showing itself.


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

thats last line was just a joke! No seriously, you maybe wrong, but you may also be right. I just would like to hear some others info on it. I am not playing both sides, I truthfully would like your opinons, they are unbiased and only based on what I have told you. I appreciate it very much, and I have only been on this forum for like a week, and I love it!!! Thank you all, especially Mr. Stone. And man if I ever go to Washington, I would like to train with other CMA, cause its very very very short down here!!!! And I really, really, really, REALLY dont like to be called anything but my name. Knowledge is knowledge. It was a gift given to me, so I just give it out too. No offense to anyone, I just wanted to see if everyone else feels or sees what I am talking about. I love the WEBSITE! And hope to be in more colorful posts!!!!


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## shesulsa (Jun 10, 2004)

Honestly, I think that people are just generally disrespectful and tend to challenge authority.  Here in the west, we're accustomed to demanding what we feel we've "paid for" but, as we all know, the martial way is not as simple as that.  Be prepared that as someone with rank and authority, you will be challenged.  Managers and supervisors at other jobs are challenged, cops are challenged, teachers and principals are challenged, parents, doctors (smile), you name it.

Try not to take it personally unless it is truly meant personally, and even then, weigh the situation to see what you can get out of what was said.

Now, you know, you still are very young and do have a great deal of life experience to put under your belt, and that too will have people taking you to the table on issues.

So, breathe, relax and smile!


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## FasterthanDeath (Jun 10, 2004)

smiling, I love to do that!!! Yeah thats what I do when they say that. Its just one of those things you know. No matter what someone is going to challenge anything or everything that I do. So thats what I do.  I smile and say, your opinon is your opinon and thats what makes this country great!


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## Dronak (Jun 10, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> I would probably think strange of anyone referring to themselves as master or grandmaster. If its from someone else I can accept it better, but from yourself, its kind of off track.



FWIW, I don't think our teacher ever called himself master.  I believe that it was the initial group of students who organized the club and chose him as the teacher that called him master and got the rest of us to do the same.  But I think you're right.  It does seem a bit odd for someone in the MA world to call himself/herself a master or grandmaster.


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## Flatlander (Jun 10, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Managers and supervisors at other jobs are challenged, cops are challenged, teachers and principals are challenged, parents, doctors (smile), you name it.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> I'm challenged too, but I'm trying to work through it.


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## arnisandyz (Jun 10, 2004)

I embarrassed them because I knew what I was doing. I dont look for respect on how much I know. Just what I know....I do know just as much as they do. And I can prove it. But still, after I get done telling you, showing you, and even impressing you it just comes back to my age....probably to the day I die their will be people who will laugh and joke and doubt me, but that wasnt the problem, it was the fact that when they learned one piece of data that doesnt effect the other, I went to being nothing.


Its hard getting a read on you FasterthanDeath, but it sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder or feel that you need to prove something? Its fairly obvious that you have high regard for your skill and want others to as well? As sincere as you try and make it sound, it doesn't. Maybe its not the age, but the attitude.


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## Rick Wade (Jun 10, 2004)

I have found this thread very interesting and I hope I don't tick anyone off here.  I will let you know from my personal experience.  I am a 1st degree in American Kenpo, I tested for 2nd degree and failed yes thats right I FAILED (hey not so loud) any way.  I have been involved in Kenpo for 14 years now and ever since I failed I have sat back and taken look at ranks and rank structures.  I have seen Nidans that couldn't hold a candle to an American Kenpo greenbelt and I know I am better than allot of them.  My goal in Kenpo is to LEARN.  Now I know from my experience I am at a stage in my Kenpo journey that I have to learn from teaching.  I am still a student and will always be one.  I will never again ask for a promotion test I will wait until it is offered to me.  When someone out there thinks that I am ready thats when I will be ready.  As far as ranks and titles let your skills (attitude and demeanor) determine your title.  I have had several people come up to me and ask why arent you a Nidan?  I just reply when I am ready I will be ready.  Now on a personal note in my loftiest of dreams I personally would like to be a 5th (Godan) someday and open a School in about 5 years.  I will open a school but 5th degree is reaching I think.

Respectfully


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## Michael Billings (Jun 10, 2004)

Excellent attitude Mr. English, and I am sure you will continue your journey with that philosophy.  Just keep working on "mastering" yourself.  That is the secret ... as if it were one.

 -Michael


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## Captain Harlock (Jun 12, 2004)

Maturity is not just a matter of how old one is, or even how good one gets in the arts. One may not be mature mentally simply because he or she has aged in calendar years. Maturing in the martial arts takes patience, time and training . Just knowing techniques does not automatically qualify anyone for anything, certainly not rank. The Idea is to be totally ready before testing. It takes more than just knowing forms, self-defense and other moves to be qualified for rank.

It also takes more than threats, bravado and internet bragging.

FTD - we do not care what your race is, gender is, political affiliation is, sexual leanings, religious practices are. What is bothering many here is that chip that appears to be on your shoulder, and the seeming need you have to validate your time in.  The challenges also aren't helping you any.

You are getting flak because some of these individuals have been actively training for longer than you have been breathing.

Your own words have proven that you have missed an essential part of the true spirit of martial arts training.

Spend some time in meditation, and then reread your words here and decide if that is truely the way you wish to present yourself.  In fact, many others should as well.

Mastery comes with experience.  Wisdom comes from experience. All things come from experience.  Experience comes from time.  Once can not be experienced in their youth.  As was said, a 10year old black belt is rather laughable, but then again so is the fixation on belts, ranks and trophies.  I once knew a man who taught a Chinese art.  His students would call him "master".  His usual responce was "I am but a student like you, only farther along on the journey. If you must call me something, 'teacher' will do.  Please do not call me 'master', for it will be many decades before I will have earned it".

I too have trained for many years, however I am but a humble student.  I have had many teachers.  My master however walks in a place I am not yet ready to follow.  Until then, I train, I teach and I share.


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## Flatlander (Jun 12, 2004)

Well, that about wraps up that topic.  Do we all agree?  I don't think it really needs to be articulated any other way.

Good post Captain.:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Jun 12, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Well, that about wraps up that topic.  Do we all agree?  I don't think it really needs to be articulated any other way.
> 
> Good post Captain.:asian:



Enough said!  very well stated captain!


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## Captain Harlock (Dec 7, 2004)

This is most interesting. I logged in today, the first time in a while, and noticed someone had "dinged"?? me for my post above, but left no comment as to why they disagreed.  Pity. For I would have liked to know the reason for the disagreement.


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## The Prof (Dec 7, 2004)

Respectful Greetings Sifu,

There is a simple rule of thumb that I always consider. Please sir, this is not meant to be offensive, but at age 23, you have not lived long enough or experienced enough to have mastered anything in life, how can you possibly have mastered a martial art? 
When you say you have studied CMA all your life, that simply cannot be a true statement. You could not have studied as an infant or toddler. Even if you started to study at age four or five those are years that just give you time not real experience simply because a child cannot gain true wisdom, but only scratch the surface. At your age, enjoy your youth and your ability to teach. Sifu is a really a very honorable title. 
:asian:
Prof. Rick Riccardi
www.niseido.org


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## phlaw (Dec 7, 2004)

I know when I started TKD the way it was explained to me was that for every rand of black belt that was the number of years you had to wait to be able to test.

So 1st degree at 15 2nd degree at 17 3rd degree at 20 etc..

So if my math is correct the youngest you could be in that system and be a MAster (4th degree) would be 24 and the youngest Grand Master (8th degree) would be 50.

Now this was before alot of instructors starting giving junior blackbelts their adult rankings when they were old enough.

example, 1 3rd degree junior blackbelt automatically becomes a 3rd degree adult black belt when he turns 16 or so (which I don't agree with)


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## phlaw (Dec 7, 2004)

I should also say, I realize there are some other exceptions, I had a friend who did such a great job on his 2nd degree test he was double promoted to 3rd degree at 17 years old...


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## KempoShaun (Dec 8, 2004)

Though it is HIGHLY rare, we seem to be forgetting that there were many "Masters" (a term I don't realy like), who were very young, 20's and 30's.  Ed Parker, Sonny Gascon, Adriano Emperado, and almost ALL of the original people who came from Hawaii to the mainland to open up shop and/or start a style were Masters at a very young age.  I doubt anyone would have gone up to Ed Parker or William Chow and told him them they weren't deserving of any rank they wore, or if they did, I would have liked to have seen the outcomes.  If you deserve a rank, wear it, if you don't, you'll be exposed.  That's how it works in the Martial Arts Community.  I've been developing a new style for close to 10 years, finally began teaching it last year, and still would never dream of making myself a "Grandmaster" or 10th Degree Black Belt, but hey, that's just me, and maybe someday it'll happen, but why get so caught up in titles and ranks anyway?   :asian:


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## The Kai (Dec 9, 2004)

I can't speak of the others, but Mr Parker i believe did'nt wear a masters belt when i did a semiianr with him (this was in the early 80's), after 30 years of pracitice, promoting

Todd


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## 7starmantis (Dec 9, 2004)

You know, in my opinion....anyone who desires or actively seeks the title of master (or any title for that matter) doesn't deserve it. There is an old addage (I think its actually from the Bible) that says, "Let others praise you and not your own mouth". I think this could fall into that category. What does the title "master" do for your that the title "instructor" or "teacher" doesn't do?

 7sm


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## HammerFist (Dec 9, 2004)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> I just find it kind of childish for other people who are in the MA to actually sterotype people and their ability. I thought we all lost that when we learn that anyone can be deadly. Or that anyone can hurt you.


 I've never once thought that my training was about being deadly or having the ability to hurt someone.

 I think your real question is about respect. And maybe the reason that people don't respect you is because you act like you are deadly and have the ability to hurt them. So in essence you are disrespecting them.

 Respect is a tricky word. I can have respect for someone's ability but not respect them as a person. I suspect that you think because you have the ability that people should respect you as a person. Why should they respect you? Because you train hard. Because you have students? Because you do well in tournaments? Respect is a two way street. If you want to be respected you must first respect others. 

 And yes, you are fighting an uphill battle because of your age. So work at it. Crosstrain with these people. Really try to understand them. Don't disrespect, or humiliate them. Walk the higher road and people will respect you.


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## KempoShaun (Dec 14, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> I can't speak of the others, but Mr Parker i believe did'nt wear a masters belt when i did a semiianr with him (this was in the early 80's), after 30 years of pracitice, promoting
> 
> Todd



I also remember a good quote from Mr. Parker, something along the lines of "please don't call me Master, there is only One Master"  (With this he would look to the sky). :asian:


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## Danjo (Jan 25, 2005)

FasterthanDeath said:
			
		

> OK. 1. The reason I titled it that way is because that is how people title me. I dont want them to call me that. You misunderstood what I am trying to say. I was called one time 1 TIME master by a student of mine at a tournament. People just assume that if you are the head instructor you are the GM. 2. They say it like its a joke, very condensending like, As in OHHHH he is a master? AH! as they laugh. 3. Your telling me that I am playing both sides of the fence? Here let me clarify, When I said I know as much as they do. I meant the people who SLANDER what I teach. I do not mean the Masters. Never has a Self proclaimed or Proclaimed Master ever told me that I had no clue on what I was doing. 4. My problem was bigger than just me. I was talking about the politics and ego problems in MA. Alot of people laugh at you if you say you are a Judo practioner. Some at Ninjitsu. I find it very ironic that in a world of morality and discipline that it always goes back to I am bigger and badder than you. Thats what my problem is about. 5. How would you know if a ST kid could fight you? Ever seen one fight? A streetfight? Ever seen one lose? Being beat? I have seen all of that. In a city named Arlington there is a Temple where one of the sons of my teacher was attending for school. I have seen him win, lose and being beat by guys 2, 3 times his size. And as far as seeing my skills, you know enough to say I am a fool, so I am sure you know my skills too, or maybe that was just your immaturity showing itself.


What exactly DO you teach? What style, rank etc. Who was your teacher? 

You know, in more than one religion, one is not allowed to be a teacher until the age of thirty and one is not considered an Elder until the age of 50. This of course varies, but the idea is that one doesn't even know what one doesn't know until they have been around a while. The older one gets, the more one finds that the pat answers that they held at a younger age simply do not hold up all that well. Those of us that have been around a bit longer than you remember what we thought like at the age of 23. Many graduated from college at that age. Others, got out after a tour in the military at about that age etc. You, so you tell us, have achieved some rank in an as yet undisclosed martial art. Fine. That is something that should engender in you a sense of accomplishment, but mastery is a long ways off. No offense, but there is precious little that a 23 year old can tell me, at 38, about life. I would certainly not presume to try to tell someone older than me about life either, so the term "master" seems a good deal premature. Perhaps you have some measure of expertise in a martial art (still anxious to hear what it is exactly). In that case, perhaps you are fit to teach said (or "Unsaid") martial art. Perhaps someone of 38 or older would feel comfortable going to one of your purported expertise to learn that art, but "master" conotes more to me than a mere teacher, though God knows I'm not running down teachers or instructors.


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Jan 25, 2005)

I am responding to this post if light of my friend because he is no longer posting on the website due to legal reasons from another thread, (I dont want to mention because of legal reasons as well!) But what he was trying to say was that around here where we live many people are not Realistic in their training of people. Alot of people are taught a few moves here and there and go out and sell to people self defense when it is not proven and/or not scientifically sound. Alot of people laugh at you when you try to improve things or change them, but noone wants to listen. They dont even take the time to hear them out. So now you have tons of people teaching unknown things calling it self defense and giving people False hope. Now as far as being a self-proclaimed Master, He never proclaimed himself, he was just called that once and then people began to use that against him. And I really dont think he was trying to teach you anything about life, I think he was talking about the art itself. And who knows what a young person can teach you about life, if you are not willing to listen to what they have to say you may be missing out on something that could either further your understanding of life, or it could be just babbling of a young immature boy. But how would you know if you didnt listen? You have already made up your mind about what you are going to do. Isnt that a little closed minded? He and I are both frustrated about how the politics of MA have taken over rather than just the teaching and the learning. So much that he decided to post how he felt on the forums and take his chances with everyone. Of course it didnt come out the way he wanted it too but I told him there really is not point in fighting it. People will teach what they want to teach even if its not right. By the way he has learned many MA including Kenpo, Wing Chun, San Shou, and Ju-jitsu. But he sticks with the Chinese Arts. He likes them better. I believe his Teacher's name is James Hurang(I dont know if I spelled it right!) But he learned all it all from private instruction. The man lived in Dallas, Tx and had a school in the late 70's but got out of it due to pressure from his community because he taught little children lethal techniques. Or thats what I have been told by him. I have met the man and he is very knowledgable and is very quick for being so old! So I hope this clears up what he was trying to say, I dont think he can post how he wants to say things. You just have to talk to him face to face and it sounds differently. I know he has a black belt in Kenpo but dont know through which family tree, and I know in Wing Chun, and San Shou he is a red sash and senior, In ju-jitsu he is a 2nd black belt and he does have other MA experience but you would have to ask him. Although its kind a hard, he doesnt even post on here let alone come to the site anymore. But I will ask him if you want me too. By the way I saw you in the Kenpo forum, maybe you can answer this for me, Why the dislike/seperation of the Parker/Tracy kenpo?


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## Danjo (Jan 25, 2005)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:
			
		

> I am responding to this post if light of my friend because he is no longer posting on the website due to legal reasons from another thread, (I dont want to mention because of legal reasons as well!) But what he was trying to say was that around here where we live many people are not Realistic in their training of people. Alot of people are taught a few moves here and there and go out and sell to people self defense when it is not proven and/or not scientifically sound. Alot of people laugh at you when you try to improve things or change them, but noone wants to listen. They dont even take the time to hear them out. So now you have tons of people teaching unknown things calling it self defense and giving people False hope. Now as far as being a self-proclaimed Master, He never proclaimed himself, he was just called that once and then people began to use that against him. And I really dont think he was trying to teach you anything about life, I think he was talking about the art itself. And who knows what a young person can teach you about life, if you are not willing to listen to what they have to say you may be missing out on something that could either further your understanding of life, or it could be just babbling of a young immature boy. But how would you know if you didnt listen? You have already made up your mind about what you are going to do. Isnt that a little closed minded? He and I are both frustrated about how the politics of MA have taken over rather than just the teaching and the learning. So much that he decided to post how he felt on the forums and take his chances with everyone. Of course it didnt come out the way he wanted it too but I told him there really is not point in fighting it. People will teach what they want to teach even if its not right. By the way he has learned many MA including Kenpo, Wing Chun, San Shou, and Ju-jitsu. But he sticks with the Chinese Arts. He likes them better. I believe his Teacher's name is James Hurang(I dont know if I spelled it right!) But he learned all it all from private instruction. The man lived in Dallas, Tx and had a school in the late 70's but got out of it due to pressure from his community because he taught little children lethal techniques. Or thats what I have been told by him. I have met the man and he is very knowledgable and is very quick for being so old! So I hope this clears up what he was trying to say, I dont think he can post how he wants to say things. You just have to talk to him face to face and it sounds differently. I know he has a black belt in Kenpo but dont know through which family tree, and I know in Wing Chun, and San Shou he is a red sash and senior, In ju-jitsu he is a 2nd black belt and he does have other MA experience but you would have to ask him. Although its kind a hard, he doesnt even post on here let alone come to the site anymore. But I will ask him if you want me too. By the way I saw you in the Kenpo forum, maybe you can answer this for me, Why the dislike/seperation of the Parker/Tracy kenpo?


That's a lot of black belts and red senior grades for a 23 year old! Oh well.

Why the separation between Parker and Tracy? I don't study either style, but near as I can make out it has something to do with the Tracys staying with a form of kenpo that Parker no longer taught. Parker continued to change kenpo and the Tracys were happy with what they had learned. But I would have to defer to someone from those schools that knows better than me.


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## RHD (Jan 28, 2005)

Deflecting_the_Storm said:
			
		

> I am responding to this post if light of my friend because he is no longer posting on the website due to legal reasons from another thread, (I dont want to mention because of legal reasons as well!)



BS

Anyway, say hi to your "friend" for me.  Tell him I ws really dissapointed that we couldn't meet at that tournament in Chicago a while back...

Mike


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