# The Other Hand



## MJS (Oct 13, 2008)

So, I'm surfing the KN the other day, and come across a few interesting threads.  There were some cool video clips of Mike Miller doing Snapping Twig.  Another member chimes in and states that while the tech. looked good, the opponent was not doing anything with their other hand.  He called it the 'dead hand effect' because their hand was not doing anything except hanging.  

Now, in our techniques, certain things that we do, cancel out the use of another limb.  IE: checking the opponents leg with ours, stepping back to cancel the use of their other hand or simply using a check, either with contact or positional, in the event the opponents other hand comes into play.  

Of course, the more I thought about it, the more I began to wonder...don't people step out of the box, and play with the techs. outside of the textbook version?  I mean, instead of our partner just letting us do our moves, why not move, try to counter what we're doing, etc.?  Sure, we're probably not going to pull off the full textbook version of the tech. but we're taking our training to another level, so to speak.  

I don't know, reading some of the posts, I got the impression from the member who commented on the dead hand, that what I describe above is a foreign concept.  Doesn't anyone else kick their training up a bit?


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## JTKenpo (Oct 13, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, I'm surfing the KN the other day, and come across a few interesting threads. There were some cool video clips of Mike Miller doing Snapping Twig. Another member chimes in and states that while the tech. looked good, the opponent was not doing anything with their other hand. He called it the 'dead hand effect' because their hand was not doing anything except hanging.
> 
> Now, in our techniques, certain things that we do, cancel out the use of another limb. IE: checking the opponents leg with ours, stepping back to cancel the use of their other hand or simply using a check, either with contact or positional, in the event the opponents other hand comes into play.
> 
> ...


 
I think one thing that needs to be addressed is the experience level of the student doing this.  There needs to be a time frame that you only do the "ideal" technique so that you learn the move properly.  When introducing "what if" concepts too early the beginner student gets lost in the endlessness of it. 

Now to answer the question, yes I believe it is an essential part of training and one that should be utilized more often.


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## punisher73 (Oct 13, 2008)

JTKenpo said:


> I think one thing that needs to be addressed is the experience level of the student doing this. There needs to be a time frame that you only do the "ideal" technique so that you learn the move properly. When introducing "what if" concepts too early the beginner student gets lost in the endlessness of it.
> 
> Now to answer the question, yes I believe it is an essential part of training and one that should be utilized more often.


 
I agree.  Sometimes students immediately start with the "what if" game and never understand the concept/lesson that the technique is supposed to show.  Since we are discussing Kenpo, Ed Parker stated many times in his writings and seminar videos that you have to learn the phonetics a syllable at a time before you learn more complex words.

Dealing with multiple strikes/hands is for more advanced students that have already learned the lessons of how to deal with a single attack.  If you can't do it with one, what makes you think you can do it with both hands attacking.


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 13, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, I'm surfing the KN the other day, and come across a few interesting threads. There were some cool video clips of Mike Miller doing Snapping Twig. Another member chimes in and states that while the tech. looked good, the opponent was not doing anything with their other hand. He called it the 'dead hand effect' because their hand was not doing anything except hanging.
> 
> Now, in our techniques, certain things that we do, cancel out the use of another limb. IE: checking the opponents leg with ours, stepping back to cancel the use of their other hand or simply using a check, either with contact or positional, in the event the opponents other hand comes into play.
> 
> ...


 
I was taught a little principle called the *3 Phase Concept*. One of those phases is the "What if" phase and intended to address things like what the other hand (or leg or head etc) _could_ be doing. 

While this concept was a principle created and endorsed by SGM Parker, I've found that there are many who would rather die a horrible death than to deviate in any way from an established text-book technique. 

Kinda' funny to find "traditionalist" in an art that was considered "nontraditional" during it's founders life ain't it? LOL 

We train the "What if" phase for techniques of the student's previous belt level. That way, they're familiar enough with them to learn something from the drills. I think it's a necessary step in reaching a level of spontaneity in executing defense against various attacks without requiring concious thought and effort.


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## marlon (Oct 13, 2008)

When training with a partner who is not just doing a one step front punch the question of a dead hand should answer itself...if not immediately then after a few hard knocks. the body mechanics are important NOT to play with, because they are what makes the technique work.  Changing some attacks for each technique is interesting for flow...ie start with one technique and flow into another as the dynamics change...but do not change the body mechanics for the techniques and what you want to accomplish.  The dead hand thing is hard to tell, because there are positional checks going on as well.  Instead of ``what if`with the other hand i like to show what it could also be doing in the context of the technique being properly executed with the proper mechanics and alignment.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc (Oct 14, 2008)

MJS said:


> So, I'm surfing the KN the other day, and come across a few interesting threads.  There were some cool video clips of Mike Miller doing Snapping Twig.  Another member chimes in and states that while the tech. looked good, the opponent was not doing anything with their other hand.  He called it the 'dead hand effect' because their hand was not doing anything except hanging.
> 
> Now, in our techniques, certain things that we do, cancel out the use of another limb.  IE: checking the opponents leg with ours, stepping back to cancel the use of their other hand or simply using a check, either with contact or positional, in the event the opponents other hand comes into play.
> 
> ...



Consider this sir; a well designed default scenario, (ideal), should already take these things into account. In my teaching, this is a given. Every technique scenario I teach, regardless of level, has a base realism component of canceling additional aggression. Not just on the initial assault, but throughout the sequence through conclusion. 

In my view (supported by Parker), and the way I was taught by Mr. Parker, that is what the meaning of "ideal" is. The problem has always been since the launch into the "commercial era" of Kenpo, a misunderstanding of the function of the "manuals." 

They were never designed to "stand alone" as instructional materials. As I've stated before, the only way Mr. Parker could proliferate the commercial product was to take black belts from other styles, and allowed them to teach his concepts. These black belts were to utilize the conceptual information as a starting point, and formulate their own product from it.

There is nothing in those technique manuals that provides a definitive solution to any assault scenario, and they were never meant to be. They were in fact created to give a reasonably intelligent teacher, a *LOOSE,* *BROAD* starting point to begin their own process of formulating technique scenarios for their own teaching. This was for their downline in a school or organization, to provide *particular consistency* for a group that worked together, with a broad *general consistency* to the overall art. 

Once you stepped out of the lineage, school, or organization, there was *NEVER* an expectation of anything being the same with the commercial product. When Mr. Parker was alive it essentially functioned as intended because only he could say "something is wrong," and if he didn't say it, no one could be criticized. The problem is, in business you can't tell people they're wrong. He accepted all of these people "as is," and had to "guide" them rather than "correct" them. If someone asked him specifically "how" a technique should be done, he always replied, "Show me how YOU do it." Than he would offer advice on how to improve Their interpretation of the technique. He knew it didn't make sense to teach a definitive technique in a business art where he wasn't going to be available to reinforce that definitive process. Unfortunately  the confusion was massive, in part, because of Parker himself. I remember standing in the back leaning against the wall in street clothes at a seminar where Mr. Parker was going over some technique ideas. One green belt leaned over to another and whispered, "Mr. Parker is teaching the technique wrong."

There was never ever anything wrong with the method of teaching, only the teachers that continued to deteriorate and spiral downward in knowledge and skill every generation. Their lack of understanding fueled a desire to have it both ways. They wanted thing fixed, but wanted "their fixed" to be everyone else's model, while they were allowed to explore and deviate to their desire.

The methodology crosses over into all interpretations and levels of Kenpo as I teach, and follows the old Chinese Traditional methods of "style or family" interpretations of the overall art, which was always taught in "phases" just like Parker intended.

Parker stated, and was very specific that in the first phase of learning, the student should be subjected to a set curriculum with no variations, what ifs or formulations, because that is a different stage and to do otherwise not only confuses students, but doesnt allow for enough physical repetition of the set model to create new synaptic pathways or muscle memory.  "What if" training is for mid-level black belts, and formulation was for "masters" of the basics of the art. 

The business of selling the art, is what brought these things, along with 'tailoring," and "re-arrangement" concepts down to students not qualified or skilled enough to do so. However, it did keep people interested in the art, and was obviously good for business. Unfortunately, it was never ever good for the art itself.

Mr. Parker supports my position in his own words from his I.K.K.A. Green Belt Manual. 

*In this phase, the term ideal implies that the situation is fixed and that the "what if" questions required in Phase II are not to be included in Phase I." *

This is as I teach. The term what if is forbidden for lower students. It is their job to learn the material, the ABC's of function if you will. It is more important to concentrate on basic skills and physical vocabulary that emphasizes body mechanics and techniques that are absolutely functional and capable of standing alone. Every technique in Phase I explores concepts of application, and teachers specific skills that can be explored in subsequent phases or levels. Mr. Parker further explains the conceptual IDEAL technique, once again in his words from the same source material.

*Therefore, the IDEAL techniques are built around seemingly INFLEXIBLE and one dimensional assumptions for a good purpose. They provide us with a basis from which we may BEGIN our analytical process. Prescribed techniques applied to prescribed reactions are the keys that make a basic technique IDEAL or FIXED.*

This is like a control model in any reliable scientific experiment. How can a beginning student begin an analytical process without a firm foundation to work from? When Ed Parker talked about phases he wanted his black belt students to take his ideas" and concepts, and create their own fixed technique. 

That is they were supposed to extrapolate the base technique from the manual, and his conceptual teachings. He was teaching his students with schools and clubs HOW TO CREATE THEIR OWN INTERPRETATIONS for their students. He wanted them to use the Phase I "motion" system to create a personal interpretation for their own students, while exploring concepts of what ifs and formulations with them as teachers.

When you understand most of Ed Parkers black belts came to him from other disciplines, you understand he had to teach on multiple levels with different people already established with schools and students all over the world. He knew if he began teaching someone already a black belt and students of his own just firm basics he would loose them. That and his own personal availability to teach what was also evolving made that impossible. If he visited a students school in January and taught, when he saw him again the material could be different. To create the business, Parker had to alter the traditional method of teaching for proliferation, with the intent of returning to the "old ways" on a large scale later. "Motion" was the mass market vehicle, but not the best vehicle for the art. That would have to come later, once he made the decision that proliferation was necessary first. When Mr. Parker created motion based kenpo, he virtually changed the Phases to suit the business. 

In the traditional sense, Phase One, was strict unalterable basics, forms, sets, and technique applications, as I teach now. Phase Two allowed for additional "considerations," and Phase Three was for Master Professors only, who influenced the material the other two phase worked from. 

When he created the "motion-base" and dubbed it Phase One, it destroyed the foundation from which all arts derive their identity. Instead he allowed the identity to be drawn from its many ideas, instead of fixed principles of execution as other arts. This was the contradiction. While he quietly worked on Phase One, American Kenpo, he promoted Phase One Motion-Kenpo which had no place in traditional teaching. He told people to rely on motion, rearranging, and tailoring, while asserting that "Ideals should be fixed," and created by teachers. We must remember Mr. Parker was growing as a martial artist. He himself was not "fixed," and continued to change often. Motion-kenpo was born in the late sixties, and became the problem child of his many versions of his art, because it was out-of-control, and there was nothing he could do about it that wouldn't destroy the business he created.

Therefore Ed Parker confused students because in the business of Motion-Kenpo, he allowed three contradicting phases and  a non-traditional method of teaching to exist at the same time. Realizing there was nothing he could do to stop it, he just continued sharing. However, it was never his intent for students of the business of kenpo, to be subjected to anything but phase I motion under the guidance of a teacher who would create plausible and fixed ideals, and the art itself would have a functional ceiling, until he created the next level.

Parker continues;

* In Phase I, structuring an IDEAL technique requires SELECTING A COMBAT SITUATION YOU WISH TO ANALYZE. Contained within the technique should be FIXED MOVES OF DEFENSE, OFFENSE, AND THE ANTICIPATED REACTIONS that can stem from them.*

You can see here hes talking to teachers of the art about the process they should use creating their own family style of his kenpo. Mr. Planas has stated this many times. The technique manuals are just a base of ideas to get the TEACHER started using Mr. Parkers conceptual guidelines to insure function. Therefore, those who have used Motion-Kenpo as their base and then went on to create their own interpretation of techniques are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. No one is wrong, unless their interpretations are dysfunctional.

The hard curriculum of Ed Parker was, and has never been generally taught. Not teaching commercially allowed Mr. Parker to teach me and create hard curriculum dictated by his ever evolving desires and philosophies.

When Mr. Parker spoke of the "what if" he was speaking from the perspective of those who had enough knowledge to design their own techniques, and the mid-level skills and knowledge they should have for Phase II. Obviously "tailoring" is one thing but totally deviating from the "idea" of the manual meant you had to understand the process of designing a basic technique. In that process you had to  consider "what if" from the perspective of your external stimuli. In other words, "what if" is not what he might do, but what he will do when I interact with him. Therefore when you design a default or Ideal technique you must take into consideration your attacker's possible reactions.  

Theoretically, when an attacker launches or initiates an assault, once you come in contact with him, you must consider what the results of your interaction will be in order to anticipate and plot your next move. 

It would seem to me that this is the stage where you apply effective techniques you have learned to a self defense encounter to arrive at the correct solution by technique selection not so much by variation.  For example, if a 400 pound man grabs me by the lapel a technique like "Lone Kimono may not be the best solution, I may want to redirect his energy and use an alternate technique like "Conquering Shield."  The focus here would be on learning HOW to analyze the attacker and situation, instead of focusing on the eternal variations of an existing technique. 

For those in the learning process choosing the correct response is more important than endless variations on a specific theme. 

I would prefer to trust my spontaneity to a technique I have practiced a 1000 times, rather than tailoring a technique into something I may have done once. These two perspectives lead to much different approaches in the way you practice and learn the Kenpo system. 

The "what if" is irrelevant without a significant solid base curriculum that is "hard wired' into your synaptic pathways, and fortified against Adrenal Stress Syndrome. It is unfortunate for many reared in the "commercial motion phase," to grasp or accept this rather obvious (to me) fact. However those from outside, seem to see it rather quickly when it is properly explained.

If you are a lower level student, it is more important to choose the right technique that you've been instructed in well, than tailor a response spontaneously when you have limited information, and undeveloped muscle memory. All of these things are intrinsically tied together, and the multiple levels of traditional study may not be explored simultaneously from the lower end of the spectrum.

It is encumbered upon us with the knowledge to formulate proper ideals to ensure that these ideal techniques not only function, but cover all of the relevant and simply inherent possibilities of the action. Any major possibilities should be handled in alternate scenarios.


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## Doc (Oct 14, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> I was taught a little principle called the *3 Phase Concept*. One of those phases is the "What if" phase and intended to address things like what the other hand (or leg or head etc) _could_ be doing.
> 
> While this concept was a principle created and endorsed by SGM Parker, I've found that there are many who would rather die a horrible death than to deviate in any way from an established text-book technique.
> 
> Kinda' funny to find "traditionalist" in an art that was considered "nontraditional" during it's founders life ain't it? LOL



It's not that you are incorrect, but simply lack the perspective of those that began study before the method was "created." You have pointed out the obvious that most seem to miss sir. What you don't know is Mr. Parker was a big "traditionalist" in every sense of the word. He just knew that in business, the traditional methods of teaching would have to take a back seat, to operating a successful business. My other post explains it better, and why Mr. Parker contradicted himself, and confused good people like yourself in the process sir.


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## marlon (Oct 14, 2008)

Doc said:


> Consider this sir; a well designed default scenario, (ideal), should already take these things into account. In my teaching, this is a given. Every technique scenario I teach, regardless of level, has a base realism component of canceling additional aggression. Not just on the initial assault, but throughout the sequence through conclusion.
> 
> In my view (supported by Parker), and the way I was taught by Mr. Parker, that is what the meaning of "ideal" is. The problem has always been since the launch into the "commercial era" of Kenpo, a misunderstanding of the function of the "manuals."
> 
> ...


 

Wow. Thank you.  wow.  you have touched on so much here that will take time to digest, and yet intuitively and logically it seems so right.  Btw  when will be able to see some of the techniques you have created sir?  And once again, i thank you for the time, effort and wonderful display of knowledge and logic that you put into answering these questions.  I am humble and grateful

Respectfully,
marlon


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 14, 2008)

Doc said:


> It's not that you are incorrect, but simply lack the perspective of those that began study before the method was "created." You have pointed out the obvious that most seem to miss sir. What you don't know is Mr. Parker was a big "traditionalist" in every sense of the word. He just knew that in business, the traditional methods of teaching would have to take a back seat, to operating a successful business. My other post explains it better, and why Mr. Parker contradicted himself, and confused good people like yourself in the process sir.


 
I don't pretend to understand the genius of SGM Parker;however, I do think that I do grasp that what he taught was never intended to be packaged into neat little boxes. 

It seems to me, especially with Westerners, that people feel the need to put things in these "neat little boxes"...for whatever reason...perhaps to gauge progress...and that SGM Parker was well beyond that limited thinking. 

I suppose that's why some adhere to established text-book techniques as gospel and never bother to venture beyond them or explore the "what if" stage. 

I can accept that there are differing opinions as to when a student should get into exploring the "what-if" stage, but it's frustrating when I see some strictly adhering to the ideal model refusing to accept that something could actually disrupt the flow of the "by-the-numbers" text-book technique! 

I don't know if I'm adequately putting my thoughts into words here.... but the bottom line is that I get frustrated with those that think there are absolutes in kenpo. 

Anyway....thanks for your well thought out post Doc...your insights are always appreciated.


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## Doc (Oct 15, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> I don't pretend to understand the genius of SGM Parker;however, I do think that I do grasp that what he taught was never intended to be packaged into neat little boxes.
> 
> It seems to me, especially with Westerners, that people feel the need to put things in these "neat little boxes"...for whatever reason...perhaps to gauge progress...and that SGM Parker was well beyond that limited thinking.
> 
> ...



I share your frustration sir, and you are correct. Those who deal in the "absolutes" you speak of, come from a limited knowledge perspective, therefore must "stay in the box" lest they wade into waters where they are unable to swim, and their rank dissipates like a puff of smoke on the lips of  a traveling gust of wind.


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## MarkC (Oct 15, 2008)

This is a subject that has fascinated, puzzled, and annoyed me for some time, and has encouraged me to annoy many people in turn.
Thank you, Doc, for your excellent post.


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## marlon (Oct 15, 2008)

Doc said:


> I share your frustration sir, and you are correct. Those who deal in the "absolutes" you speak of, come from a limited knowledge perspective, therefore must "stay in the box" lest they wade into waters where they are unable to swim, and their rank dissipates like a puff of smoke on the lips of a traveling gust of wind.


 

...and he is a poet as well...!!


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## DavidCC (Oct 16, 2008)

> a well designed default scenario, (ideal), should already take these things into account


 
This one idea has caused us to do some real soul-searching about many of the SKK techniques we teach, resulting in a number of modifications to the techniques we teach.

Then, add in the need to conform to optimal anatomical behaviors (not doing things that damage your own body), and it gets pretty exciting.

It's best when these 2 concerns can be brought into alignment.  I think I have 2, maybe 3 techniques that seem to fully comply with both mandates; and many more that are similar, addressing different but related scenarios.  We still have work to do, but it feels like we have some kind of firm ground under our feet at least.

Personally, I feel like we need to get you back out here Doc.  Not so much for a public seminar to spread the SL-4 'good news', but something more in-depth for our advanced students to develop the proper frame of mind or reference to pursue this course.  or maybe you can just consult with us on the evolution of our existing technique base to bring it more in line with these principles.... just thinking out loud here... thanks


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## Doc (Oct 16, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> This one idea has caused us to do some real soul-searching about many of the SKK techniques we teach, resulting in a number of modifications to the techniques we teach.
> 
> Then, add in the need to conform to optimal anatomical behaviors (not doing things that damage your own body), and it gets pretty exciting.
> 
> ...



"Have gi will travel."  Be in Ohio the weekend of Nov 7th.


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## Doc (Oct 16, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> This one idea has caused us to do some real soul-searching about many of the SKK techniques we teach, resulting in a number of modifications to the techniques we teach.
> 
> Then, add in the need to conform to optimal anatomical behaviors (not doing things that damage your own body), and it gets pretty exciting.
> 
> ...



You and Shawn need to be commended. Few have the balls to adjust and strive for the best information available for their students, after achieving success with less. How's are little one doing? iS she ready for SL-4?


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## DavidCC (Oct 17, 2008)

thank you!  But it's really Shawn, I just put stuff I find in front of him, he's the Captain of the ship. And, he was just asking me about some of the blocking drills you have on YT, I look forward to doing some of those!  He's having the time of his life it seems, finally free to really bring in what he has been learning from you, Dave, and guys like Evan Pantazzi and Asa Seeley and Jim Corn.  He was recently certified as a Defensive Tactics Instructor as well so I expect our gun techniques will be undergoing a lot of work.


My little Tiger just got her "Orange-Purple belt" 3 weeks ago which is a half-step between the two colors.  Next weekend we hope she will be ready to test for the full purple (a big deal for an 8 year old, most purple at our school are 10-12).  That will be unprecedentedly quick, but I've been able to teach her new material at home (not just work on her existing stuff) so I have been doing that and it is working out well.  She has learned 4 new techniques and one kata (well, it still needs work, but she has it all memorized).  She works out on the heavy bag and we grapple regularly too.  We were doing a sticky hands game, where I would touch her face, and she was slapping the snot out of me :/  so I tackled her and we continued it on the ground, and she added in butt-pinching attacks LOL when she about knocked a tooth loose with a palm-heel to my jaw from my half-guard, I had to call it quits (was supposed to be a taste of AST for her but I'm the one who got smacked around!).

She gets the benefit of all the SL-4 that I can do (which ain't much but I try)... so I have her BAM and PAM and no c-stepping and indexing to the best of my ability to judge when it is correct to do so. So maybe some of it is mis-placed or not quite right, but it's better than nothing   and I drill drill drill her stances and blocks, and "fix your feet" LOL  

She has 2 big hangups right now:  She can't tolerate making a mistake; and she has too much fun in class and sometimes isn't focused on excellence.  Sometimes it's frustrating, but better than the opposites!  but she is at a point where she is sucking up the skills like a sponge so I am going to give her everything she can handle while it lasts.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 22, 2008)

Just be careful about pushing her too hard. She is only eight, and it's easy for kids to burn out if pushed too hard. The reason she loves martial arts is invariably going to be different than the reason you love martial arts.


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## Doc (Oct 22, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> thank you!  But it's really Shawn, I just put stuff I find in front of him, he's the Captain of the ship. And, he was just asking me about some of the blocking drills you have on YT, I look forward to doing some of those!  He's having the time of his life it seems, finally free to really bring in what he has been learning from you, Dave, and guys like Evan Pantazzi and Asa Seeley and Jim Corn.  He was recently certified as a Defensive Tactics Instructor as well so I expect our gun techniques will be undergoing a lot of work.
> 
> 
> My little Tiger just got her "Orange-Purple belt" 3 weeks ago which is a half-step between the two colors.  Next weekend we hope she will be ready to test for the full purple (a big deal for an 8 year old, most purple at our school are 10-12).  That will be unprecedentedly quick, but I've been able to teach her new material at home (not just work on her existing stuff) so I have been doing that and it is working out well.  She has learned 4 new techniques and one kata (well, it still needs work, but she has it all memorized).  She works out on the heavy bag and we grapple regularly too.  We were doing a sticky hands game, where I would touch her face, and she was slapping the snot out of me :/  so I tackled her and we continued it on the ground, and she added in butt-pinching attacks LOL when she about knocked a tooth loose with a palm-heel to my jaw from my half-guard, I had to call it quits (was supposed to be a taste of AST for her but I'm the one who got smacked around!).
> ...



That's my girl. Keep doing what you're doing. Hope to see her soon.


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## DavidCC (Oct 23, 2008)

relaxing after a hard night at class






patiently waiting for some raviolies.  and watching too much 'Top Model'


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## Doc (Oct 23, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> relaxing after a hard night at class
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm having flashbacks. Mine are old now, (25 & 30) but it doesn't matter. You got big troubles dude.


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## marlon (Oct 23, 2008)

glad i have boys...


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## DavidCC (Oct 24, 2008)

Doc said:


> I'm having flashbacks. Mine are old now, (25 & 30) but it doesn't matter. You got big troubles dude.


 
I hear ya.  My 22 year old has FINALLY (probably) gotten her head out of her a$$, my 19 yr old has recently shoved her head firmly up there and refuses to pull it out... Kayla will either be a lot easier or a LOT worse, too early to tell!

Good news is she has some sense that their are rules that people live by becasue they help you have a better life (not becasue somebody will get you in trouble if you break them).  I never really instilled that into my older 2, at least not explicitly like we are with Kayla (and that is almost entirely due to her Martial Arts training!).  example: She accused a boy in her class of cheating at checkers yesterday and he slapped her on the face.  Instead of going all "KEMPO!" on him, she calmly told the teacher.  Which was the right thing to do but, dang, could she at least block next time LOL

oh one more funny you will appreciate, Doc:  we were watching something on TV and they showed a police cadet getting tasered as part of his training.  After explaining what a taser is, she asked me why they were tasering that officer.  "Because he needs to know what it is like before he can do it to bad guys"; "well I don't want to be a policeman any more" she says hahaha


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## DavidCC (Oct 24, 2008)

slightly back on topic

I have been teaching Kayal to use BAMs at her shoulder as part of a couple of specific sequences: in one tech (DM#2) we do a right inward block followed by a left outer block.  I taugth her to BAM her right shoulder with the initial block primarily as a means of getting her left hand into the best position to do the following left outward.  Second, in DM#3 we do a left inward block followed by a right punch to the ribs.  I taught her to BAM her right shoulder _after_ the left inward block as a way to get her to follow through with the left block and not stop upon contact with the incoming punch, also the tech calls for the left hand to grab the attacker right shoulder after the block, and the BAM really helps the timing of that by giving you a rebound.

So I was watching her practice and I noticed that she is using both of these mechanisms in other techniques, places I never taught her to do that!  my little genius, Daddy was so proud


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## marlon (Oct 24, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> This one idea has caused us to do some real soul-searching about many of the SKK techniques we teach, resulting in a number of modifications to the techniques we teach.
> 
> Then, add in the need to conform to optimal anatomical behaviors (not doing things that damage your own body), and it gets pretty exciting.
> 
> It's best when these 2 concerns can be brought into alignment.  I think I have 2, maybe 3 techniques that seem to fully comply with both mandates; and many more that are similar, addressing different but related scenarios.  We still have work to do, but it feels like we have some kind of firm ground under our feet at least.



I have to say that with a few modifications from what i have learned from taiji and from Doc almost all of the combinations fit into this category now.  The obvious exceptions are the tdk influenced ones but other than that i think we have full compliance with those criteria... but then again i have never met Doc in person...yet

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2008)

As some have pointed out, the level of the student does come into play, as far as how detailed you get.  A beginner probably doesn't need to focus on the what if until they grasp the basics, however, I am a firm believer in making sure that they're not sloppy.  The person doing the attack as well as the person defending, should have their other hand up, even if its not physically doing anything.

I think that many times, people neglect doing anything outside of the base tech.  Like I said, the foundation needs to be set in the beginning, but once the student progresses, why not supplement a punch with the lapel grab in Delayed Sword or Lone Kimono?  Throw another strike, move so that the person doing the tech. can't finish it in the textbook fashion, and instead has to adapt to something else.


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## Doc (Oct 26, 2008)

MJS said:


> As some have pointed out, the level of the student does come into play, as far as how detailed you get.  A beginner probably doesn't need to focus on the what if until they grasp the basics, however, I am a firm believer in making sure that they're not sloppy.  The person doing the attack as well as the person defending, should have their other hand up, even if its not physically doing anything.
> 
> I think that many times, people neglect doing anything outside of the base tech.  Like I said, the foundation needs to be set in the beginning, but once the student progresses, why not supplement a punch with the lapel grab in Delayed Sword or Lone Kimono?  Throw another strike, move so that the person doing the tech. can't finish it in the textbook fashion, and instead has to adapt to something else.



or....

as we do, design the default, ideal, base, whateveryouwantocallit technique teaching scenario, so it already takes it into consideration, and eliminates such "what if'" thinking in the learning process. That is the way I was taught. If a technique scenario excludes these things, than (depending upon style philosophy), it is a poorly designed model.

I gave a detailed description awhile back on our presentation of "Delayed Sword," on YouTube and it illustrates that point well.

Great discussion all.


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## MJS (Oct 29, 2008)

Doc said:


> or....
> 
> as we do, design the default, ideal, base, whateveryouwantocallit technique teaching scenario, so it already takes it into consideration, and eliminates such "what if'" thinking in the learning process. That is the way I was taught. If a technique scenario excludes these things, than (depending upon style philosophy), it is a poorly designed model.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Doc,

Sorry I didn't reply sooner to this. I probably missed it, but the description you're referring to was posted on this forum? 

Anyways, for the sake of keeping this thread going, I posted the slow motion version of Delayed Sword.

[yt]618ZYKugQSs[/yt]

What is happening here that addresses the 'what if' phase?  I'm not trying to bash SL4, just trying to see what you're talking about.


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## marlon (Oct 29, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hey Doc,
> 
> Sorry I didn't reply sooner to this. I probably missed it, but the description you're referring to was posted on this forum?
> 
> ...


 
i personally do not see a point of entry for a 'what if' once the defender starts.

marlon


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## Doc (Oct 29, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hey Doc,
> What is happening here that addresses the 'what if' phase?  I'm not trying to bash SL4, just trying to see what you're talking about.



No need to qualify sir, I know your inquiries are honest.

This thread helps bolster my position about teaching complex physical mechanisms through a video media. It is simply not possible. It however is possible to use the media as personal video notes to support solid in-person instruction.

I'll address several issues in this particular video clip with Prof. Rod Perez, and brown belt Steve "Stix" DeLollis.

The initial movement of the arms, (and more subtle and invisible) the hands, as well as footwork, is to Survive The Initial Assault. That is; grabs do not occur in a physical vacuum. There is always a vicarious physical effect of an expeditious, and aggressive grab or seizure.

In this instance in an effort to grab quickly and aggressively before the victim can react, the attacker actually strikes with the open hand "heel palm" and significant body momentum to the chest, before closing the hand to seize clothing material. 

In my experience and lessons, this is simply the way grabs happen in reality. The victim is not static, nor does he allow someone to simply walk up to him and carefully seize his clothing without affecting his body until after the grab. There is significant energy brought to the circumstances before the seizure actually happens in realistic scenario training.

Suggestion: Have someone practice aggressively grabbing and pulling you as quickly as they can, while you stand with eyes closed, and note the body reactions. You should feel your arms and hands "jerk," your hips move rearward, and the effect of the strike to the chest, makes you take a step rearward to "catch" your balance.

The hand and footwork is an extension of the physical effects of the Startle Reflex that will result from an unexpected physical intrusive of personal space. Caught "off guard" as the scenario suggest, the hands will reflexively be drawn to the area of contact, with the arms and elbows retreating to protect the torso. The footwork is induced by the physical contact of the aggressive grab. That is, you are to a certain extent been "struck and pushed" before the grab, and your body will take a step rearwards to regain balance and reflexively stabilize its platform. 

So in summation of the initial action of the attacker, it will reflexively create; the hands up position, and the initial stabilizing step rearward.

From that position, we take an additional step rearward with a PAM, (Platform Aligning Mechanism), and Index the hands and arms to complete the stabilizing process of our lower and upper body, and to join them together creating total structural integrity, as we prepare for the Significant Initial Retaliation action. *Additionally, the extra step forces the attacker to move with you in reaction, and this will assist in misaligning him, and place him in a "shields down" physical state. Noting there is a physical difference between "actions versus reaction." It will also, if his intent is to punch as well, delay the opportunity until it is to late before you retaliate against him. If he were to attempt an off-balance wild right hand strike, the Indexed right hand in moving to attack the head of the humerus of the shoulder would pick it up as an Inward block.*

Keep in mind the scenario is specifically designed for a grab, and not an attempted grab. If you were aware enough to anticipate the attempted grab we would simply strike him first, or at the least not allow him to make physical contact. This is a bone of contention in many Kenpo self-defense scenario interpretations that teach a simple "move first" mindset, that unfortunately ignores the reality that human beings in close proximity to each other are not always going to be "prepared" to defend against such actions. Although the autonomic nervous system monitors our body and personal space from one jiffy-second to the next utilizing various body sensors, it may be overwhelmed and "ignore" certain actions as it rolls back sensitivity to adjust to its current environment. That is, how you react standing in the middle of an empty field where you are unaware of the presence of others, is different from walking down the street in New York during rush hour. On the one, you would probably jump and jerk with heart racing and blood pumping with a momentary "fright" reflex. The other because of the constant noise, and volume of people in close proximity brushing and touching us unintentionally, the sensors would adjust. Otherwise we would take on the appearance of some type of an epileptic seizure as we are standing in line at Disney World.

This is also the mechanism of human anatomy that "pickpocket" thieves use to distract the body sensors with one action so it will "ignore" their true intentions. Magicians and performers use this methodology as well by touching and bumping people while talking to distract the sensors, as they remove your watch unnoticed or perform a "trick." All of these things come under a component Mr. Parker and I made extensive study of over the years called, the Psychology of Confrontation.

So for those who insist on a "move first" approach, my answer is a simple one. In human anatomy, it is not physically possible under the majority of circumstances, and when it is possible it is a small minority of circumstances in a civilized society. Standing in the middle of the jungle is another story.

(Note the amount of verbiage necessary to simply explain the attack and the victim reaction.)

So here we are; Attacker is "extended physically" reacting to our reactions to his Initiated Assault with his weight shifted to one side. His torso is disassociated at the pelvic girdle, and his own reactions will assist in this. The attacker is holding on unbalanced, and we have recovered and are very balanced structurally and prepared for the next action offensively or defensively. We will address our offensive reaction. (After Surviving The Initial Assault, I teach our actions are offensive not defensive.)

From our Indexed arm position, we move through the Indexes to a strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder that corresponds to L-1, as we cross the visual cortex sensor to "occupy" his PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) Sensors and physically break him down.

(This is one of the reasons for what may appear to be exaggerated movement). All big circles are not bad.

This is done with a BAM Body Alignment Mechanism to your right shoulder, as your left forearm PINS his hand and arm.

The strike will cause the weight to shift to the right leg as it collapses, (it may be imperceptible and internal but does occur), and grip strength of the seizing hand will be compromised.

From here we Pressure Check his shoulder and control depth with our right hand, as we step forward with a Gauging (Front) kick between his legs affecting the Pelvic Girdle and possible striking CV-1.

After the kick, the left hand occupies the Visual Cortex Sensors and right visual quadrant, by moving to an Index Position above the attackers right shoulder.

The right hand now Braces the left hand creating a momentary G.C.M, and provides Anatomical Resistance to align the right arm with the rest of the structure, before unleashing a devastating primary hand sword strike with a BAM, to the right side of the neck at the created posture, and the required angle to LI-18.

The cross and cover incorporate Exit Indexes to control depth should it be necessary. We have no anatomically unsound postures when executing, therefore students are admonished to always practice sound body mechanics regardless of circumstances. Further at higher levels of execution of this Default Technique, we purposely insert grappling assaults throughout the technique sequence, and at the end to insure structural efficacy at all stages of the confrontation.

The representation here is a beginning scenario execution. Although students may not be given all of the reasons for every execution, (it can become information overload), they will execute the same and continually be effective even as they begin to understand, and as we move the technique to even higher levels of execution.

The above information is only a shell of the information in this scenario. The reason techniques are taught "old school" inflexible is to preserve the "Encyclopedia of Knowledge" that scenarios are supposed to be, create platforms for moving to advanced levels, create internal energy through proper body mechanics, etc, all while providing effective functional tools. 

There are no "what if's" because those minor possibilities are either addressed in the physics of the Default Technique itself at some level, or another similar scenario teaching vehicle taught concurrently or at later stages. Either way, students are always functional, no matter where they are in their training, whether beginner, intermediate or advanced.


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## MJS (Oct 29, 2008)

A few more versions.  Here we have 2 students under Mr. Tatum

[yt]8VlfNS7AHMY[/yt]


James Hawkins doing a few versions of Delayed Sword

[yt]juJ3MAFN9J8[/yt]

Is the 'what if' a factor in any of these versions or is is cancelled?


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## MJS (Oct 30, 2008)

Doc said:


> No need to qualify sir, I know your inquiries are honest.
> 
> This thread helps bolster my position about teaching complex physical mechanisms through a video media. It is simply not possible. It however is possible to use the media as personal video notes to support solid in-person instruction.
> 
> ...


 
WOW!!! As always Doc, you leave me with some things to work on!   Looks like you and I were posting at the same time last night, so my post with the 2 other clips wasn't a reply to this post, just wanted to post a few other things for comparison.  

I'm going to class in a few more hours, so I'll work on that experiment and report my results.  

It is interesting though, because way too often, when working techniques, I see people doing a 'relaxed' grab.  Someone just stands there, allows the person to lightly grab their lapel, and there is no change in the body of either person.  Personally, I hate when someone does that to me.  I'd rather have the more realistic attack to give that feeling and body change/adjustment.  Kind of like someone choking you and their hands are on your shoulders. LOL!  

Thanks again!

Mike


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## Doc (Oct 30, 2008)

correction that should read;

"If he were to attempt an off-balance wild *LEFT* hand strike."


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## MJS (Nov 14, 2008)

Looks like I forgot to get back to this thread.  Anyways....yes, things happened just as you said Doc.  The experiment, the clip and the written explaination of yours is much more clear now.

Thanks.


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## Doc (Nov 29, 2008)

marlon said:


> Wow. Thank you.  wow.  you have touched on so much here that will take time to digest, and yet intuitively and logically it seems so right.  Btw  when will be able to see some of the techniques you have created sir?  And once again, i thank you for the time, effort and wonderful display of knowledge and logic that you put into answering these questions.  I am humble and grateful
> 
> Respectfully,
> marlon



Some base techniques are on YouTube under "SubLevel Kenpo." But most techniques you'll recognize are not created by me, but merely adjusted to fit the mandates of the science of successful applications as taught to me by Mr. Parker.

Than there are the techniques that are created by me to address specific sets of circumstances not represented in general teaching.


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