# "Count to 4"



## SamT (Nov 26, 2008)

Come February or so, my local dojang will be a Gracie Certified BJJ studio (or something along those lines), and I'll be taking BJJ classes there. My Tang Soo Do instructor's son teaches it, and I've had about four or five hours of total experience with grappling.

During a six hour MMA clinic hosted by my instructor's son, we were taught very basic locks. He was huge on safety on this part, and told us to count to four in about a second and a half, and let go, unless we feel/hear a tapout before that. Do any of you do something similar when you're dealing with more potentially dangerous techniques?

And a question. When doing something like that, do I want to be very cautious and take someone gently, or do I want to have moderate leverage/force? I know that they have the responsibility to tap out once they feel it, but I know that the bigger responsibility lies on me to only take it as far as needed.


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## MJS (Nov 26, 2008)

SamT said:


> Come February or so, my local dojang will be a Gracie Certified BJJ studio (or something along those lines), and I'll be taking BJJ classes there. My Tang Soo Do instructor's son teaches it, and I've had about four or five hours of total experience with grappling.
> 
> During a six hour MMA clinic hosted by my instructor's son, we were taught very basic locks. He was huge on safety on this part, and told us to count to four in about a second and a half, and let go, unless we feel/hear a tapout before that. Do any of you do something similar when you're dealing with more potentially dangerous techniques?
> 
> And a question. When doing something like that, do I want to be very cautious and take someone gently, or do I want to have moderate leverage/force? I know that they have the responsibility to tap out once they feel it, but I know that the bigger responsibility lies on me to only take it as far as needed.


 
IMHO, anytime you're working some something more dangerous, I would apply it slow and also observe what is happening to your partner.  Some people tend to let their ego get the best of them, and instead of tapping when they should, feel that they should let it go a bit longer.  Well, its during those times that accident will happen.  "Hmm...he has me in a pretty good ankle lock.  It hurts really bad, but maybe I'll try to fight it a bit longer."  Next thing you know, there goes the ankle, maybe the knee..who knows.  

And yes, sometimes things dont go well when you do them slow, because it gives the other person a chance to move ever so slightly and your tech. won't work, so sometimes you need to do it quick.  However, nothing should be done so fast that safey is put in the backseat.


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## SA_BJJ (Nov 27, 2008)

MJS said:


> IMHO, anytime you're working some something more dangerous, I would apply it slow and also observe what is happening to your partner.  Some people tend to let their ego get the best of them, and instead of tapping when they should, feel that they should let it go a bit longer.  Well, its during those times that accident will happen.  "Hmm...he has me in a pretty good ankle lock.  It hurts really bad, but maybe I'll try to fight it a bit longer."  Next thing you know, there goes the ankle, maybe the knee..who knows.
> 
> And yes, sometimes things dont go well when you do them slow, because it gives the other person a chance to move ever so slightly and your tech. won't work, so sometimes you need to do it quick.  However, nothing should be done so fast that safey is put in the backseat.


I agree, ecspecially in the lower belt ranks while learning basics tech. you should go at it a little slow.  As you prgress you can put some stank on it if you know what I mean.


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## terryl965 (Nov 27, 2008)

MJS said:


> IMHO, anytime you're working some something more dangerous, I would apply it slow and also observe what is happening to your partner. Some people tend to let their ego get the best of them, and instead of tapping when they should, feel that they should let it go a bit longer. Well, its during those times that accident will happen. "Hmm...he has me in a pretty good ankle lock. It hurts really bad, but maybe I'll try to fight it a bit longer." Next thing you know, there goes the ankle, maybe the knee..who knows.
> 
> And yes, sometimes things dont go well when you do them slow, because it gives the other person a chance to move ever so slightly and your tech. won't work, so sometimes you need to do it quick. However, nothing should be done so fast that safey is put in the backseat.


 

This is exactly right


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## Steve (Dec 5, 2008)

I read this post a few months back on a blog I enjoy.  It articulates the idea of lock sense very well, and I think that's basically what you're talking about.

I basically subscribe to the tap early and often method.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 5, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> I read this post a few months back on a blog I enjoy. It articulates the idea of lock sense very well, and I think that's basically what you're talking about.
> 
> I basically subscribe to the tap early and often method.


 I like the early part but not the often part...lol


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## Steve (Dec 5, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> I like the early part but not the often part...lol


LOL...  it's like medicine.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 5, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> LOL... it's like medicine.


 Very true...I got over the whole ego thing a long time ago.  I would rather have the use of all of my extremities.


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## arnisador (Dec 5, 2008)

Go slow! It's easier to snap something than you may realize.


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## jarrod (Dec 5, 2008)

**** that!!!!!  if they r to stoopid to tap than they get a broken bone!!!!!! maybe next time they wont b so stoopid!!!!!!!!! thats how it would happen in a real fite!!!!!!!!

jf


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 6, 2008)

jarrod said:


> **** that!!!!!  if they r to stoopid to tap than they get a broken bone!!!!!! maybe next time they wont b so stoopid!!!!!!!!! thats how it would happen in a real fite!!!!!!!!
> 
> jf



I agree to a point...what belt rank are you jarrod.  Lets just say for instance youre a brown belt.  Are you going to go all out and destroy a white belt?


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## jarrod (Dec 7, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> I agree to a point...what belt rank are you jarrod. Lets just say for instance youre a brown belt. Are you going to go all out and destroy a white belt?


 
i'm completely kidding   i've posted here enough that i assume most folks know that my trolling is just well-intentioned joking.

i'm a black belt, & whoever i'm facing i try to tap them with the least amount of effort.  it seems to reduce injuries (mine & theirs) & helps me focus on technique.

jf


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

As a female instructor I get the problem that often men will not tap out to me or will resist even when I'm just showing them how to do a move. It's specifically the infantry soldiers we teach I have to add, civvies and the other corps in the army don't have this ego problem.
As I've posted up before I've had to go all out and try to force them to tap because they will not tap out. It's pointed out to them that the pro fighters will tap in training as soon as they feel the move work, they have no problem with tapping so why should they? it's not as if it's in a fight or even in just rolling around on the floor, it's when I'm actually teaching. If I show a figure four arm bar, they will tense their arm so I can't get it down, which totally makes a nonsense of them trying to learn. I'm forced to give them a dig them get the lock on quickly and stronger than I intend just to make the point.


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## seasoned (Dec 7, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> I like the early part but not the often part...lol


 
I like your thinking here. Tapping to often, and you will never find your full potential. If their not locked in, make them work.


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## Steve (Dec 7, 2008)

seasoned said:


> I like your thinking here. Tapping to often, and you will never find your full potential. If their not locked in, make them work.


This is as much a part of developing lock sense as applying the technique.  One of the things that makes rolling with the brand new white belts dangerous is that they don't know how to protect their partners and they don't know when to tap to protect themselves.  I saw a brand new guy lift a blue belt off the ground with his arm fully extended in a tight armbar.  It was brutal.  You could see that his elbow was hyperextended.  The blue belt let the technique go right away to avoid injuring the guy, who was completely oblivious to how much danger he put himself in.

I'm of the opinion that if there's any doubt, go ahead and tap.  This is particularly true for techniques in which there is very little play.  Armbars are relatively safe in that there is pain before things start to pop.  Wristlocks, too.  But the ankle, knee and shoulder tend to pop first and then tell the brain there's something wrong.


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## jarrod (Dec 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> As a female instructor I get the problem that often men will not tap out to me or will resist even when I'm just showing them how to do a move. It's specifically the infantry soldiers we teach I have to add, civvies and the other corps in the army don't have this ego problem.
> As I've posted up before I've had to go all out and try to force them to tap because they will not tap out. It's pointed out to them that the pro fighters will tap in training as soon as they feel the move work, they have no problem with tapping so why should they? it's not as if it's in a fight or even in just rolling around on the floor, it's when I'm actually teaching. If I show a figure four arm bar, they will tense their arm so I can't get it down, which totally makes a nonsense of them trying to learn. I'm forced to give them a dig them get the lock on quickly and stronger than I intend just to make the point.


 
that sucks tez.  for what it's worth, i've had a couple of guys who do that to me too, so it may not _always_ be a gender thing.  

jf


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

jarrod said:


> that sucks tez. for what it's worth, i've had a couple of guys who do that to me too, so it may not _always_ be a gender thing.
> 
> jf


 
It's a pain, literally! for sure it's an ego thing though isn't it? If the flipping pro fighters can tap why can't they? They don't lose their masculinity the minute they tap!!


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## jarrod (Dec 8, 2008)

it is an ego thing, to be sure.

funny story: i was demonstrating a choke on one of my students (usually very cooperative but once in a while he thinks he's funny) & he wouldn't tap.  he just kept looking around like nothing was going on.  i said "can you really not feel that?" & he started to make a snoring sound.  then i let go & his body went limp.  woke up a couple seconds later wanting to know what happened.  turned out the snoring wasn't fake!

jf


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