# Tai Chi fighting at high level?



## Mtal (Feb 8, 2007)

Reading post hear, I see a lot of stuff about tai chi takes a long time to learn, but it is a great martial art (if you find someone who can teach that aspect of it). I am starting out on my tai chi career now. I am wondering (well I have not really scene it or felt it), what makes tai chi so awsome? What does a high level tai chi fighter do that compared to an external fighter that is so different, awsome, etc......

Or is it more about being older and still being able to fight and healty compared to other styles (I see that being said in some post too).

I guess I am trying to get an idear of what the tai chi at the high level is like.

Any thoughts or experiences would be great to hear.


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## grydth (Feb 8, 2007)

I make no pretensions to being a grandmaster on any high level, but I do have some years of experience in the art.

Any legitimate art taught by a qualified instructor can produce awesome fighters...... it can also produce turkeys. So first for you is to investigate if you have real Tai Chi (there are regrettably outright fakers out there) taught by a qualified teacher (same caution). Then you have to sample to see if this is the right art for you.

Also, there was a large segment of Tai Chi practice that veered away from its martial roots and taught no self defense. While you may reap a variety of health and relaxation benefits, you will find nothing of use fighting wise. So you will require an instructor who has stayed in touch with its roots - and who will ultimately teach those to you.

At least in my experience, a legitimate instuctor may make you wait months for any fighting instruction - they will want you to gain a working knowledge of the principles, the basics and likely at least 1 form. There are no minute masters in this art.

I do feel Tai Chi offers plausible self defense tactics to an elder individual. But beware - when facing a much larger physically competent assailant that you've got 20 years on, you remain in serious peril. Tai Chi gives you a chance of survival, it is not magic supremacy.


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## charyuop (Feb 9, 2007)

I have been doing Tai Chi for over a year, but not as Martial Art. Anyway I recently started Aikido which is another soft Martial Art. With my little experience I will try to answer your question about what Tai Chi gives more than a more hard/external Martial Art.

First of all I wouldn't put it as what it gives more. In my opinion every Martial Art gives you the tool to become a good fighter and being able to defend yourself. I have read some books where some Masters (of both class of styles), and I agree with them, state that in their opinion both hard and soft style when reach a high level of mastering reach a mutual point. Thus I wouldn't put it on the aspect of "when I am old". Of course with age you will have to modify your way of using the techniques, but I think all Martial Arts will come with you in the long path of aging.

Said that let's come down to the difference. I won't talk about "chi"/"ki" energy, but about pure fighting. The main difference is that in the external styles you are tought to counter strength with strength. Thus you will try to block a punch to counter attack. Using strength vs strength creates tension and that will make so that you will have to count only on your energy to defeat the opponent. In a soft/internal Art you won't be taught to block a punch, but you will be taught to let the punch follow his natural path. While the punch his following its path you will have to join it and simply go with it paying attention that when the punch arrives to an end it will be your time to use the energy of the punch against the opponent.
I know said like that seems very esotheric, but I will try to make it even simpler (that was already a very simplified example, because the subject would be too long to discuss on a forum).
Person A punches to his opponent where his head is in point B. So usually to have a good punch A should aim a bit further than the head, lets say point C. Picture your hand joining his punch between A and B and when they reach C you just slightly gets the fist a bit further. Your opponent will be completely out of balance and at your mercy.

Easy? Not really. The reason why the internal Martial Arts take so long to learn is bacause of those little things which actually are huge, like joining, leading, blending and moving the opponent. Why in internal Martial Arts is so important relaxation? For Chi/Ki? Maybe, but in a more practical way I can tell you that if you are not relaxed it won't work. Think the point of joining of your hand and the fist. If you meet the fist with strength or tension you will create a reaction in the opponent (which may be by instinct or wanted, but trust me there will be a reaction), thus you won't be able to lead him where you want, and relaxation must be all the way to the end of the path of the punch. Leading it...well, you need to be able to sense you opponent energy or if want call it movements. If you reach point C stop and the try to get the path longer it won't work, because the opponent will have time to reset his all position and get better balance. So it is important that you blend with him to get the right "momentum" and take advantage of the opponent. Even the moving of the opponent is not an easy part. If you look at videos of internal Arts like Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Aikido and so on, you will notice that the movement of the arms is not indipendent. All the movements are dictated by the center of your body (dantien or hara) and even here I think I could give you a practical explaination. Stand in front of some and grab his hand. Having that person resist you try to pull that person towards you with the sole strength of the arms and then try with dropping your hips backwards. You will notice that in the second case you will use less tension in the muscles and with practice of the internal Arts and the use of their techniques that tension is gonna eventually disappear completely. If you notice when you pull the person with the muscle that person will give you back a muscle reaction greater than when you use the hips...and basically that is the reason why internal Arts move from the center.

As I said this is a very simplified explaination of how I see things and it might be that others might not agree with me since I didn't throw in the Chi subject. But I admit that the Chi subject always mislead me. Placing to much attention on the Chi subject I think takes your attention from what the Art is about. I see Chi just as a, let's say, something plus to add to the Art to get more power out of it.

Just my 2 (long sorry) cents...


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 9, 2007)

Mtal said:


> Reading post hear, I see a lot of stuff about tai chi takes a long time to learn, but it is a great martial art (if you find someone who can teach that aspect of it). I am starting out on my tai chi career now. I am wondering (well I have not really scene it or felt it), what makes tai chi so awsome? What does a high level tai chi fighter do that compared to an external fighter that is so different, awsome, etc......
> 
> Or is it more about being older and still being able to fight and healty compared to other styles (I see that being said in some post too).
> 
> ...


 
You need to learn how to sense your opponent almost before they realize the direction they are going. You need to not fight force coming at you with force but redirect it. It takes time to do this and as I have heard said by many a Wing Chun practitioner you have to invest in loss in order to learn properly, same goes for Tai Chi possibly doubly so. 

And you need to learn the forms first and understand them and apply sandao correctly (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41929&highlight=sandao) (Shen [Spirit], Yi [thought, intension], Shi [posture, position])

You can apply many of the Tai Chi postures to martial arts rather quickly but you are using them as an external style would not as an internal style such as Tai Chi does. When I started Tai Chi I came from Jujitsu and TKD and thought I caught on pretty quick (about 3 years with my first Sifu), that is until I started training with my Yang style Sifu and he pretty much proved me wrong with little or no effort. 12 years later I know I was wrong, very wrong actually, and I still have a whole lot to learn and I am far from a master and to be honest I doubt I will ever be one, but I will keep training. 

My Sifu will make his students learn the Long Form first and then he will refine the long form and then start training basic push hands, 1 hand stationary, 2 hands stationary, rocking set then go onto moving sets of push hands and after that you start doing a bit of applications work in push hands. He will during refinement of the long form show some simple applications but not many. 

My Sifu is considerably older than I am and considerably smaller and I would bet on him against just about anyone that tried to attack him regardless of their age. But my Sifu has been training tai chi for just about his entire life and had an exceptional teacher. It is not magic it is just a long time training the correct way in Tai Chi. 

And as mentioned by the other posters finding a good teacher is key and also very difficult, depending on what style you are looking for determines how difficult a task that might be. There are charlatans out there claiming they are teachers in all styles, just with some styles it is more prevalent than others. 

Bottom-line NO martial art is learned quickly, with some you can defend yourself quicker than with others, example Wing Chun, in about a year of good training you can defend yourself, but you still have a WHOLE lot left to learn, you are FAR from a master of Wing Chun after a year. Xingyi they say takes about 2.5 years, give or take, to understand, coordinate and use it correctly as Xingyi, doesn&#8217;t mean you can&#8217;t defend yourself using what you have learned prior to 2.5 years you just may not be using it correctly (to much force) and after 2.5 years of Xingyi you are FAR form being a master as well. Tai Chi takes a long time because it is a soft internal style. It takes time to NOT use force against force, it takes time to relax and if you want to truly use tai chi as a martial art as it was meant to be used it is going to take time that is all, If you want it quicker look to another style. 

And I didn't even get into the Qi training in this psot that is also a large part of Tai Chi. 

Now, if I may ask you a question or 2, 

What style do you train?

What form are you learning in that style?

Who is your teacher? 

Who was you teacher's teacher or where did he/she learn tai chi?

One last thing, I do not think I would call Tai chi "Fighting at high levels" A good tai chi martial artist is no better than a good Xingyi person or a good aikido person or a good Karate person, etc. They just have a different approach to it that is all


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