# Grappling only vs. knife...



## Cruentus (Jan 31, 2008)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izDQwDT_ERg&feature=related

Interesting illustration on how grappling by itself (without a clear strategy to control or diminish the use of the blade), as with any unarmed defense against a knife, is dangerous.


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## thardey (Jan 31, 2008)

Good stuff

It reminds me of this story



> *Lie #10 Grappling with a knife*
> I was in Germany with a group of martial artists teaching "street knife work." While demonstrating an empty-handed with one of them, he tackled me and took me to the ground (This is no big deal as when I do demo's I don't allow "courtesy attacks." I insist people attack me like they would were it a real fight -- this occasionally means that I get slugged or taken down. This was one of those times). Anyway, when we hit the floor I realized that there was no way I could contest this guys strength, he was a bull, full of muscle and grappling skill. The thing was I had landed next to a practice knife that I calmly picked up and dragged it across his throat.
> 
> We stood up and his eyes were the size of saucers because he realized what the significance of what had just happened.  A knife had come out of nowhere and had this been real, he would have been dead. The amazing thing was is there were only a few other people there who did too. On of the bigger proponents of grappling stood  there and said, "He tackled you." To which I replied, "Yes, and I slit his throat" "But, he tackled you."
> ...


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 31, 2008)

Marc is The Man. I love that story.

Main problem is, you don't know if they're armed or not. That trainer could have easily been an ink pen or a broken bottle... standing, with footwork, you might have a chance,  * if you see it coming*. Assuming they're armed helps a lot to relieve the action/reaction gap, allowing you to use distancing & angling so you can respond with action.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 31, 2008)

Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential.  Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Just as important in the reverse is understanding how to tie up the limbs so that an opponent with a knife is limited.


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## Doc_Jude (Jan 31, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential.  Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I started doing Silat (ironically, I started reading Marc MacYoung around the same time), I definitely became more weapon conscious. My new MO: I don't "go to the ground" unless I'm taken there, & I'm back up as soon as possible. Just me...

That & I started working my sprawl and anti-takedown tactics MUCH MORE.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 31, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Grappling with tools and particularly knives is essential.  Not only knowing how to make everything work on the ground when you are doing it but how and when and where do you deploy it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




As in anything, practicing the deployment of a technique or chosen weapon in situations is important. 

I have rolled with "C" and we also tried accessing weapons on our body or on the opponents body. 

It works when you both just hide the weapon and sometimes one has one and the other does not. So if they go looking for yours it might not be there.


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## arnisador (Jan 31, 2008)

*Rich Parsons* makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 31, 2008)

arnisador said:


> *Rich Parsons* makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.



Could the phrase Infinitely Different be applied here?


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## Andrew Green (Feb 1, 2008)

One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker".  The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.

Now, barring a massive, and I do mean massive gap in skill level of the two, he could make a serious attempt to fight taking the knife into consideration and have the same result 95+% of the time. 

By getting the guy to dive in blind I think it seriously weakens the point they where trying to make.


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## tellner (Feb 1, 2008)

Empty hand versus the knife plain sucks pus out of stillborn orangutans no matter how you go about it.

And you're welcome for that graphic visual image


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 1, 2008)

arnisador said:


> *Rich Parsons* makes good points, but the basic fact remains--grappling against a knife is very much different from grappling unarmed.


 


Rich Parsons said:


> Could the phrase Infinitely Different be applied here?


 
It definately is different and yet similar.  That is if you are very well trained in grappling, BJJ, Wrestling, etc. and locks in general. (something that can be found in Silat, Arnis, Budo Taijutsu, etc.  You will have an advantage in body movement provided you train with a real world mind set that yes does include having a knife or other tool in the mix now and then.  I know with my wrestling and bjj background that I have for years gone through and trained grappling with knives, etc. and accessing them and deploying them while grappling. (I specialize in a few distinct flavors) This is a skill set all by itself and one that complements well with already existing ground skill sets.  I find BJJ body movement excellent for this even if 99.9% of Brazilian Jiujitsu practitioiner's do not practice this. (though most the ones I have flipped the switch with picked up pretty quick and had correct body movement to go along with it)  My bjj skills have always aided in this department.



Andrew Green said:


> One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker". The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.
> 
> Now, barring a massive, and I do mean massive gap in skill level of the two, he could make a serious attempt to fight taking the knife into consideration and have the same result 95+% of the time.
> 
> By getting the guy to dive in blind I think it seriously weakens the point they where trying to make.


 
Yes it pretty much is evident that the idea there was to make the grappler look bad in this video. (and in the real world anyone not addressing the knife would be in really bad shape quick)  I can simply say that because he sees the knife and makes no effort to tie it up, which I believe most people would. (if they know what is good for them or run like crazy) 

Still having said all the above grappling with a knife is *seriously bad mojo*.  You do not want to be there if you can help it.


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2008)

Marc has some great stuff on his site and he makes some damn good points.  In the event that you do find yourself in a grapple with someone with a weapon, I do feel that it is very important to know some solid defense.  IMO, it opens up a new world.  This is important, especially for those that are LEOs.  

While its obviously good to have skill with a weapon, a blade can be put in the hands of an untrained person and they can still inflict serious damage.  If you train right with the blade, it can be deployed easily.  Many folders have those clips that you can attach right into your pocket.  Pull that out, while someone is working for a submission or control...well, the rest should be obvious.


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## arnisador (Feb 1, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> One thing that bothers me about this, and other demonstrations like it, is that it needlessly dummies down the "attacker".  The unarmed guy basically walked into the first stab and completely ignored a visibile knife.



This is a fair point. Where I take BJJ we do practice techniques to grab a hand and control it against the opponent's body (e.g., a rear bear hug where both of my hands control one of his, pinned hard to his body as I use my head/chest to buckle him forward). But the ability to switch the knife between one's hands makes a lot of that hard to do, and the video does show that as the grappler goes for a figure-4 armlock (it appears). Hence, I agree with you up to a point...the entry was unbelievable, and a good entry by the grappler could really change things; but once the grappling has started, I think the video is reasonably representative.


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## Langenschwert (Feb 1, 2008)

Excellent video.

As a weapons practicioner myself, I find that many MAists underestimate the destructive capabilities of hand weapons.  Note in the video the most basic of counters to knife control technqiues: shifting the knife to the other hand.  Also note the efficacy of such a simple strategy.  In Kunst des Fechtens, it's one of the oldest tricks in the book (literally!).  In the Codex Wallerstein, it's shown as a counter to a scissors lock.  Too bad I can't find the image online. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## thardey (Feb 1, 2008)

When people find out I practice knife defense stuff, they often want to show their stuff. Usually, about halfway through their lock, I casually reach up and grab the practice knife with my free hand and drag it across their throat.

It's amazing how many knife defenses don't take that into account.


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## Andrew Green (Feb 1, 2008)

thardey said:


> It's amazing how many knife defenses don't take that into account.



I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.

Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo


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## Cruentus (Feb 1, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.
> 
> Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo



True. However, because the deck is stacked in someone else's favor when a weapon presents itself, that doesn't mean that we figure it to be a losing battle anyway, and never train material against such a situation.

In self-defense, we are dealing with probabilities. Your probability of success decreases significantly when someone has a knife. However, there are tactics and techniques that increase your chance of survival over others. It is valuable to train those. The delivery systems (striking, clinching, grappling) should be the same whether or not the attacker has a knife or not; but there are technical and tactical considerations that will greatly increase the probability of success. And these considerations could greatly change your overall fight plan. If one does not train those, then one will be in even bigger trouble if a knife were to ever present itself...


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## Andrew Green (Feb 1, 2008)

Never said not to train it, just that the odds aren't good when the other person has a knife.  Even with a big skill gap a knife can more then turn that around.  Lot's of people don't seem to like admiting that, which leads to all the silly knife disarms like these:

[yt]h_vvI26NnwE[/yt]

Which, unfortunately, we've all seen done by people that where serious


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## thardey (Feb 1, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.
> 
> Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo



It always amazes me that people who realize that there is no "magic combination" to win a fist fight against someone else your size seem to think that there is one or two "incredible knife defenses" that are guaranteed to work. But you're right, there's no _reliable_ way to take that knife away. There are ways, they're just not trustworthy.

However, I do believe that with training, and a survival mindset, the odds of _escaping_ from a stupid situation can be raised, and sometimes that involves taking control of the knife, or knife hand.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 1, 2008)

thardey said:


> It always amazes me that people who realize that there is no "magic combination" to win a fist fight against someone else your size seem to think that there is one or two "incredible knife defenses" that are guaranteed to work. But you're right, there's no _reliable_ way to take that knife away. There are ways, they're just not trustworthy.
> 
> However, I do believe that with training, and a survival mindset, the odds of _escaping_ from a stupid situation can be raised, and sometimes that involves taking control of the knife, or knife hand.



I hate to preach to the choir, but the Dog Bros "Die Less Often" dvds are excellent at addressing this issue, they show many many drills for unarmed against knife.


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## thardey (Feb 1, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> I hate to preach to the choir, but the Dog Bros "Die Less Often" dvds are excellent at addressing this issue, they show many many drills for unarmed against knife.



I have not heard of those -- I'll have to check them out


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## KenpoTex (Feb 1, 2008)

Unarmed against a knife sucks regardless of the context (standing, groundfighting, whatever).  In our knife-defense training, we have to train to gain and maintain control of the weapon in all of these areas.  
For those of us that carry a knife, it is critical to practice access and deployment from the different positions in which we may find ourselves.  
Just like the BJJ mantra "position before submission," we have to create a window to access our weapon, it's not going to be as simple as just pulling it out.  Trying to draw and open a folder while being subjected to a "ground 'n' pound" is not fun and if you don't do something to reverse the situation, you may not last long enough to get your weapon into play. 



Doc_Jude said:


> I hate to preach to the choir, but the Dog Bros "Die Less Often" dvds are excellent at addressing this issue, they show many many drills for unarmed against knife.


 
Agreed, I've got Vol. 1 and have found it to be excellent (slight clarification: DLO is a collaboration between Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny of the Dog Brothers, and Gabe Suarez of Suarez International). I really like the fact that they discuss the entire coninuum from weapons defense, to weapon deployment.

The video is worth the price just to see the portions where people tried to draw a weapon *before they had established control *or had neutralized the threat and got shanked multiple times as a result.

Link to DLO Vol. 1 http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=509
Link to DLO Vol. 2 http://www.onesourcetactical.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=930


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## MJS (Feb 1, 2008)

Nothing is a sure shot defense.  That goes for empty hand defense and weapon defense.  Of course, there are always some that seem to think that there is no hope at all when faced with a weapon.  Of course, IMO, that usually means that the person in question hasn't found the best way for them, yet they assume that everyone falls into that category.

As some have already said, it comes down to mindset and how you train.  There are some people out there teaching some very solid techniques or principles and some teaching things that will probably end up getting you killed.


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## Cruentus (Feb 1, 2008)

Andrew; no disagreements from me. Love that skit btw too! 

Kenpotex; those vids look interesting. I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time  to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. It really  makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol


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## KenpoTex (Feb 2, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. *It really makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). *I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol


Exactly!


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 2, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> Andrew; no disagreements from me. Love that skit btw too!
> 
> Kenpotex; those vids look interesting. I have been saying for years that if your weapon isn't out when the event occurs, you have to establish control and buy time  to access your weapon. We found this out through scenario training of our own. It really  makes the case for training unarmed combat, and it also flies in the face of the conventional wisdom from weapon focused people ("I'll just pull my gun or knife"). I've been saying this for years, but what the hell do I know... lol



As little as me?  That is what you know.  Now back to the cave with you, as we need to get more scenario training in.


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## Cruentus (Feb 3, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> As little as me?  That is what you know.  Now back to the cave with you, as we need to get more scenario training in.



Cave? I'll be hiding in the mountains, waiting to get my shot off...


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 3, 2008)

Grappling vs. knife:

step 1:  Run

Step 2:  If can't run, get BOTH HANDS on the knife hand

Step 3: Head butt, knee and throw your opponent until he stops moving.

Step 4: Leave. Why wait for the police?..in fact, maybe check Mr. Knife Guy's pockets for his wallet.  Why not? He was going to stab you.


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 3, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> I think it's a pretty simple explanation, there is no reliable way to get a knife away from a person that wants to use it without a weapon.
> 
> Since a lot of people would rather believe that there is, and some instructors don't like to admit there isn't, "little things" like that get overlooked so that the fantasy can be made real in the dojo


 
Check out Straight Blast Gym's Karl Tanswell's Two-On-One defense against a knife attack.  It is the _only _realistic knife defense I've seen in 20 years of looking at "knife defense nonsense."

Tanswell is a bodyguard, has been for years, and actually uses what he teaches. You'll find it all refreshing.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 3, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Check out Straight Blast Gym's Karl Tanswell's Two-On-One defense against a knife attack. It is the _only _realistic knife defense I've seen in 20 years of looking at "knife defense nonsense."
> 
> Tanswell is a bodyguard, has been for years, and actually uses what he teaches. You'll find it all refreshing.


 
Is Karl affiliated with SBG?  Sounds like you may be talking about Jerry Wetzel's "Red Zone" system (which, as I've said in the past, I really like).

just trying to clarify...


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## jks9199 (Feb 3, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Grappling vs. knife:
> 
> step 1:  Run
> 
> ...



Why wait for the police?  Because the guy may come to, and decide that YOU attacked him.  Or someone nearby saw it or it got caught on a security camera...  Running away turns justifiable self defense into questionable behavior.  Especially if there's any argument to be made about the reasonableness of the force you used.

Why not check his pockets for a wallet?  Even simpler.  YOU ARE NOT A CROOK.  Or maybe YOU are; I'm not.  And I won't train people I know or suspect to be crooks.


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## Bodhisattva (Feb 5, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Why wait for the police? Because the guy may come to, and decide that YOU attacked him. Or someone nearby saw it or it got caught on a security camera... Running away turns justifiable self defense into questionable behavior. Especially if there's any argument to be made about the reasonableness of the force you used.
> 
> Why not check his pockets for a wallet? Even simpler. YOU ARE NOT A CROOK. Or maybe YOU are; I'm not. And I won't train people I know or suspect to be crooks.


 
Hey, Captain SensofHumor!  Maybe you could recognize when people are joking?  It makes the jokes funnier!

--

And, yes, I *AM* a crook.  I went to "crook" college, and got my degree in "crookin'".  I can crook it up, baby!


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## MJS (Feb 5, 2008)

Looks like a simple misunderstanding.  Lets not take things to heart and keep this thread on a civil note ok.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 5, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Why wait for the police?  Because the guy may come to, and decide that YOU attacked him.  Or someone nearby saw it or it got caught on a security camera...  Running away turns justifiable self defense into questionable behavior.  Especially if there's any argument to be made about the reasonableness of the force you used.
> 
> Why not check his pockets for a wallet?  Even simpler.  YOU ARE NOT A CROOK.  Or maybe YOU are; I'm not.  And I won't train people I know or suspect to be crooks.



That's weird. All the cops that I know on a personal basis tell me that in a situation like this,"GO THE #%&! HOME!" According to them, 10 felons could beat you to hell and run a train on you and it's still gonna cost you an arm and a leg to prove that you were "innocent". "Oh, that guy over there was oppressing us with his just being there, & then he insulted our mothers, yeah. So we had to jump him and rape him. Not that we could help it, we're not responsible for our actions, we're so oppressed blahblahblahblah..." Yeah, I don't want any of that trouble. In a situation like that, you may win the battle but lose the war. Damn catch-22's...


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## Cruentus (Feb 5, 2008)

You want to always get yourself to safety. But that is different from "fleeing the scene" where you go away with no intention of notifying the police. Getting to safety and notifying the police as soon as possible (preferably by cell phone  immediately when it is safe to make the call) is the most reasonable thing to do.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 5, 2008)

Listen to Cruentus and Jks9199 as they are both spot on.  You need to notify the police and let them know what happend once you are safe.  Also you need to explain what actions you took and why.  Fleeing the scene and not notifying the police is definately not a good idea. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (it will probably come back to haunt you big time)


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## thardey (Feb 5, 2008)

My friend just wrapped up a case where some punks were making this guy and his 4 year old daughter feel threatened, so he threatened them back (with his gun, he only showed it, BTW,which is legal here, he didn't point it.) It happened out of cell-phone range, but the punks made it back to town first, and called the cops on the guy. Guess who had to hire a lawyer?

Get to safety, and call it in ASAP. Don't let them beat you to it.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 5, 2008)

Cruentus said:


> You want to always get yourself to safety. But that is different from "fleeing the scene" where you go away with no intention of notifying the police. Getting to safety and notifying the police as soon as possible (preferably by cell phone  immediately when it is safe to make the call) is the most reasonable thing to do.



Oh. Well, I might do that. Go home and then call, from behind a locked door, just me and my boom stick.


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## arnisador (Feb 5, 2008)

The first to complain "looks innocent". Every child knows this.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 5, 2008)

arnisador said:


> The first to complain "looks innocent". Every child knows this.



Another argument for open-hand strikes. Palm heel, chop, and slap the piss out of 'em while screaming,"I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT! STAY AWAY FROM ME!    *HELP!!!   FIRE!!!"*


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## thardey (Feb 6, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Another argument for open-hand strikes. Palm heel, chop, and slap the piss out of 'em while screaming,"I DON'T WANT TO FIGHT! STAY AWAY FROM ME!    *HELP!!!   FIRE!!!"*



*snort*

I just imagined a cartoon with your avatar doing that anime-style. *slap* *slap* *thud*


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 6, 2008)

thardey said:


> *snort*
> 
> I just imagined a cartoon with your avatar doing that anime-style. *slap* *slap* *thud*



Hey, I like open-hands. I practice "slapping" the bag, except right before contact, snap the wrist & hit with the palm heel. It works rather well, & looks better than going all Muay Thai or Golden Gloves on someone.


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## thardey (Feb 7, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Hey, I like open-hands. I practice "slapping" the bag, except right before contact, snap the wrist & hit with the palm heel. It works rather well, & looks better than going all Muay Thai or Golden Gloves on someone.



I like anything to the head to be open-handed, as well. I learned that from football. I know we weren't _supposed_ to to smack they guy's helmet, but _dang_ it was effective. But of course, punching a helmet was suicidal.


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## chinto (Feb 25, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> When I started doing Silat (ironically, I started reading Marc MacYoung around the same time), I definitely became more weapon conscious. My new MO: I don't "go to the ground" unless I'm taken there, & I'm back up as soon as possible. Just me...
> 
> That & I started working my sprawl and anti-takedown tactics MUCH MORE.



there is a reason the older traditional arts tend not to go to the ground if they can avoid it, and then get up fast.  weapons then as now were common and well going to the ground with a blade is a bad idea in my estimation.  and if he is good with a knife .. like the old song said  "when he come up off the ground, Leroy looked like a jigsaw puzzle with a couple of pieces gone!"
on your feet you can use distance and things that are not available to you on the ground.


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