# Kuk Sool Won: Would I be expelled for cross-training?



## Hidden 1 (Jan 16, 2012)

I started a *thread* yesterday because I'm considering Kuk Sool Won.

If I did Kuk Sool Won and they found out that I was involved in CMA would they actually kick me out? 

I'm not planning on becoming a KSW instructor and I wouldn't go further in KSW than 2nd degree black belt.


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## shesulsa (Jan 16, 2012)

Is there a policy against cross-training? Some schools do this - seems a hallmark of certain Korean martial arts.


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 16, 2012)

I get the impression that KSW in general doesn't encourage cross training. I don't know about expulsion.

Absolutely effin asinine. I like the idea of Kuk Sool Won but for that reason I wouldn't train it. It isn't any more in depth or difficult to understand than any other MA and it's arrogance (nationalism?) to treat it like it is.


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## sfs982000 (Jan 17, 2012)

Hidden 1 said:


> I started a *thread* yesterday because I'm considering Kuk Sool Won.
> 
> If I did Kuk Sool Won and they found out that I was involved in CMA would they actually kick me out?
> 
> I'm not planning on becoming a KSW instructor and I wouldn't go further in KSW than 2nd degree black belt.



Would you really even have to tell them that you are/were involved in CMA?  I guess my opinion is that if they would kick you out for being involved in CMA then you probably would be better off in the long run any way.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 17, 2012)

They aren't blind.


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## sfs982000 (Jan 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> They aren't blind.



Well maybe in an sense they are   I just meant that the OP didn't have to fess up that they were still currently involved in CMA.


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## mastercole (Jan 17, 2012)

Whether they kick you out or not is irrelevant.  If they find this out, no instructor will take you seriously and make no real attempts to teach you deeply. It would end up being a massive waste of your time, and if they let you stick around, also a massive waste of your money.

My recommendation is if you join a martial art, anywhere, give it your all, all of your available time, focus and energy.  Maybe after 10 years, or so, you will begin to learn something valuable.


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## Hidden 1 (Jan 17, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Whether they kick you out or not is irrelevant.  If they find this out, no instructor will take you seriously and make no real attempts to teach you deeply. It would end up being a massive waste of your time, and if they let you stick around, also a massive waste of your money.
> 
> My recommendation is if you join a martial art, anywhere, give it your all, all of your available time, focus and energy.  Maybe after 10 years, or so, you will begin to learn something valuable.



Good point. Even if they don't kick me out they could just stop helping me.

I appreciate your advice about MA in general but I have to tell you that a lot of high level instructors in CMA would not agree with your comments on cross-training. Not only have I not had a problem with cross-training in CMA but my instructors actually supported it. In fact it seems like a LOT of CMA schools at least want you to learn multiple styles within their own school. In the past a lot of CMA people cross-trained and even encouraged their students to cross-train. It's not something that is new in CMA. As far as KMA is concerned I can't comment because I have never done KMA. 

It may best for me to just avoid KSW (and KMA) all together. If I study KSW in Korea I will either have to quit when I come back or face the possibility that I would be ignored by my teacher here when he or she finds out I'm doing CMA. That would be a huge waste of time and money.

I want to say thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread. I think I'll do CMA (northern mantis or maybe Sip Pal Gi) when I'm in Korea. I appreciate KSW but I don't want to get involved with an organization or teacher that wants to restrict my ability to learn other styles.


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## mastercole (Jan 17, 2012)

Hidden 1 said:


> Good point. Even if they don't kick me out they could just stop helping me.
> 
> I appreciate your advice about MA in general but I have to tell you that a lot of high level instructors in CMA would not agree with your comments on cross-training. Not only have I not had a problem with cross-training in CMA but my instructors actually supported it. In fact it seems like a LOT of CMA schools at least want you to learn multiple styles within their own school. In the past a lot of CMA people cross-trained and even encouraged their students to cross-train. It's not something that is new in CMA. As far as KMA is concerned I can't comment because I have never done KMA.
> 
> ...



(I said this in the other thread but I think it belongs here, so we can just stay here with it)

Really? So novice students are encouraged by their Chinese masters to enroll in a different style of martial art? That is the first I have heard of this. Please point me to some sources on this interesting practice among Chinese masters. Thank you.


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## Blindside (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> My recommendation is if you join a martial art, anywhere, give it your all, all of your available time, focus and energy.  Maybe after 10 years, or so, you will begin to learn something valuable.



If I haven't learned something valuable in the first two years something is deeply wrong with the teaching method.


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## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

Blindside said:


> If I haven't learned something valuable in the first two years something is deeply wrong with the teaching method.



Could be. For some, it could also be that something is deeply wrong with the learning method.


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## Hidden 1 (Jan 18, 2012)

mastercole said:


> (I said this in the other thread but I think it belongs here, so we can just stay here with it)
> 
> Really? So novice students are encouraged by their Chinese masters to enroll in a different style of martial art? That is the first I have heard of this. Please point me to some sources on this interesting practice among Chinese masters. Thank you.



What's a novice? I think that's where this will get tricky.

I'm not sure how to cite sources for you. I would put it this way - it seems to me that most CMA schools are teaching multiple styles and encouraging students to study multiple styles at some point. If you look around for kung fu or wushu schools in your area you will probably find that this is the case. So many people are teaching northern external styles plus baguazhang, xingyiquan, and taijiquan. That seems to be the most common set up. I guess the question is when do those teachers encourage you to get involved with another style. I would guess sometime in the first three years. I certainly don't think people are asking you to wait ten years before picking up another Chinese style. I've never heard of that and I know a lot of people and I've been around CMA for a long time.

In the book "Kung Fu Elements" Liang Shou-Yu talks about the value of studying many styles but I don't remember him putting a time frame on when someone should start another style. I can't speak for him but I can't believe he meant for people to train for 10 years in a style before going to something else. That's not how his school or my teacher's school (and my teacher co-wrote that book) run. They encourage you to cross train. No one ever said to me "don't do baguazhang because you don't have ten years in Emei & Shaolin yet."

In historical terms one example would be Gu Ru Zhang (Ku Yu Cheong) who encouraged his students (who were learning a type of Northern Shaolin called Er Lang Men) to study under Choy Lay Fut people.

In CMA people study many styles a lot more often than they study just one. I guess the question is when do people start picking up additional arts.


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## clfsean (Jan 18, 2012)

Hidden 1 said:


> What's a novice? I think that's where this will get tricky.
> 
> I'm not sure how to cite sources for you. I would put it this way - it seems to me that most CMA schools are teaching multiple styles and encouraging students to study multiple styles at some point. If you look around for kung fu or wushu schools in your area you will probably find that this is the case. So many people are teaching northern external styles plus baguazhang, xingyiquan, and taijiquan. That seems to be the most common set up. I guess the question is when do those teachers encourage you to get involved with another style. I would guess sometime in the first three years. I certainly don't think people are asking you to wait ten years before picking up another Chinese style. I've never heard of that and I know a lot of people and I've been around CMA for a long time.
> 
> In the book "Kung Fu Elements" Liang Shou-Yu talks about the value of studying many styles but I don't remember him putting a time frame on when someone should start another style. I can't speak for him but I can't believe he meant for people to train for 10 years in a style before going to something else. That's not how his school or my teacher's school (and my teacher co-wrote that book) run. They encourage you to cross train. No one ever said to me "don't do baguazhang because you don't have ten years in Emei & Shaolin yet."



It depends on the school. If your school is set up to handle multiple styles, that's one thing. But a teacher who only teaches one style may not take it too kindly if you haven't gotten the basics down (i.e. solid beyond reproach) to trying something else.



Hidden 1 said:


> In historical terms one example would be Gu Ru Zhang (Ku Yu Cheong) who encouraged his students (who were learning a type of Northern Shaolin called Er Lang Men) to study under Choy Lay Fut people.



Actually the students KYC & Tam Sam swapped were at the level I mentioned above and it was a worked out swap. It wasn't just a revolving door initially or even later. You had students afterwards that felt one suited them better than the other & swapped. You also had some that continued with both but with a preference for one over the the other. But it wasn't a revolving kitchen door between their two schools.



Hidden 1 said:


> In CMA people study many styles a lot more often than they study just one. I guess the question is when do people start picking up additional arts.



That's a question that's not answerable on a calendar but with a look inside.


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## mastercole (Jan 18, 2012)

clfsean said:


> It depends on the school. If your school is set up to handle multiple styles, that's one thing. But a teacher who only teaches one style may not take it too kindly if you haven't gotten the basics down (i.e. solid beyond reproach) to trying something else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good post.  My own example would be that I brought Taekkyon master's from Korea to teach me and Taekwondo my students Taekkyon. Some students trained for 2 years in Taekwondo, some for over 25 years.  I selected who I thought was ready.  The most important point here?  Like KYC and Tam Sam, I selected who my students trained with, and which students could do so.

If someone went to train somewhere else, I would tell them to continue to focus 100% at their new training place in order to do their best to learn. I don't want to distract them.


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## allofthekatas (Aug 9, 2012)

As someone who did Kuk Sool Won for four years before leaving to study kajukenbo, it would entirely depend on your instructor. It is not allowed for black belts to cross train, however I saw plenty of lower ranks doing it at my school. Though it should be stated that my teacher had no personal problem with cross training. However at a certain point in your training if you study other arts you will be asked to quit. This is one of the reasons I left kuk sool won.


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## Humble Student (Aug 18, 2012)

I hate to say it but it is a way to control the heard. Meaning it is part of the business model. That you tell people that train with you that, they can only train with you. That way you get all of their money and if they train with others they are considered not loyal. (Its a mind; well you know the word I am looking for) It happens a lot with in the Korean arts; as well I am sure now with most schools. Because lets face it, marital arts schools at the end of the day no matter what have to make money. And if you are spending it some where else. Then you are not spending it at my school. It shows a lack of integrity on the part of the teacher.
However that doesnt mean all teachers are like that. I have met a few that dont care what you train in as long as you make your main art their art.
However if the DJNs of the art found out you both could get it. Its up to you.
Truth be told if they want to play that game then they are not the right teacher for anyone. A real teacher knows how to for the most part keep their ego in check. Well at lest they should if they are worth anything. But to the main point yes the main Korean arts be it KSW or HRD kind of frown on that.
But the choice is yours in the end.


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## Sabunimfrank64 (Jan 19, 2018)

Yes you could b they believe you should b loyal to ur school ur teacher n to kuk sa nym


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