# taijiquan vs. wing chun



## SwedishChef

I've recently become aware of taijiquan (the hardcore versions) as an extremely effective close range combat art.  I've watched some mpegs and been suitably impressed as well as reading a number of articles.  My question is does it have effective ways of dealing with wing chun's rapid fire strikes, blocks and trapping?  I think at least one of you out there has studied both. Anyway since I'm just an onlooker into both styles I could use your points of view.  Thanks.


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## TaiChiTJ

My question is does it have effective ways of dealing with wing chun's rapid fire strikes, blocks and trapping?


My experience is that anyone who finds their head and torso on the receiving end of wing chun's "machine gun" rapid strikes for the first time are surprised.

 Good tai chi chuan players who have a martial component to their training (such as fast paced free form push hands, not just traditional push hands and form work) can learn to effectively respond. The same goes for wing chun's trapping actions.


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## SwedishChef

In what way? Do they match the strikes? Re-position? I've seen some sort of twisting of arms when they're up close. (I'm not familiar with what push-hands looks like in motion.)


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## wuchi

My question is does it have effective ways of dealing with wing chun's rapid fire strikes, blocks and trapping?

A hardcore TCC practioner would probably more interested in focusing on lifting his general skill level rather than specific technique to cope with a specific situation. 
When a TCC practioner reaches a very high skill level his skill is so refined and his control is so good that he would have PREVENTED the Wing Chun's person doing any of his technique you mentioned. But to reach that sort of skill level is very difficult - it takes many many years of practice and success is not guaranteed.


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## dmax999

Not sure on the proper way to answer, but I think those skilled in TCC would never get into a position for the Wing-Chun centerline punches.  I have done both, and think Tai-Chi would end up using a deflection of the first punch to block remaining punches and leave themselves an opening to strike back with.

For a Wing-Chun person trying to understand Tai-Chi, imagine a person who has based most of thier practice in chi-sau almost exclusivly.  They would stop it in a similar way a master at chi-sau would, difference being the attack following the trapping would probably be different.

Tai-Chi and Wing-Chun, in my opinion, are actually very similar.  Of course there are differences, but both have extremely powerful strikes, heavy reliance on a "chi-sau" type exercise, and tend to not to kick high.  Tai-Chi moves seem more "natural" to execute, with Wing-Chun being very non-natural and was difficult for me when starting it.


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## SwedishChef

Thanks all.  I'm drawn to both because of their similarities.  Its really the basis for my question.  When two good close range styles clash...what happens?  I know more about wing chun than taiji so I could imagine what a wing chun stylist might do but didn't know what a taiji boxer might do to counter the rapid strikes since the only clips of taiji I have seen demonstrate powerful but less rapid attacks.


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## brothershaw

I would tend to believe that the tai chi person would have alot of trouble unless they were a very good fighter period. Not because wing chun is better but lets say an above average wing chun player should be coming wiht such a barrage of attacks, in addition to thier ability to follow the bridge, and find openings that unless the tai chi person really knows thier stuff, ( and fighting) they will probably be overwhelmed. ALso really good footwork would be needed. 

I have tremendous respect for tai chi but it takes along time to get it  ( which Is why i dont do it)


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## NotQuiteDead

Does anyone have any clips of taiji sparring? I've only seen tui shou.


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## eyebeams

One uprooting shot is worth a dozen chain punches. Wing Chunners like to intercept, angle and drive their chung chois in with advancing steps. To counter it:

 * Learn how to take a shot. A chung choi (WC chain punch) is not really a very powerful punch, but if you have no full contact experience it'll still rock you.

 * Be aggressive. Stop thinking of taiji as a passive art just because it uses internal training and redirection. You should actively seek to adhere to and strike the opponent, driving forward with quick steps.

 * Maintain pun. Too many taiji stylists have a limp pun. Pun is taiji's primary bridging technique. It needs to be forceful without being tense.

 * Learn and use shuai (throwing) applications. Good Taiji shuai is at a closer rang than WC equivalents. Smother him and chuck him over your hip. Use Hold Golden Ball for a wrestling-style over-under and flip him on his back.

 * Vary your frame. Taiji techniques can happen in large and small frames. Wing Chun is mostly a small frame art. Widen your stance and movements for major blows and to cover distance quickly. If you can do a fast step in a wide frame, you can run over a small framed opponent.


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## brothershaw

Good post.


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## SwedishChef

I have since found some cool clips on emptyflower.com(in the video section under tjday) and erle montaigue's taijiworld.com site.


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## Spook

Good post but there are a few points i disagree on.



			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> One uprooting shot is worth a dozen chain punches.


This is a strong misconception of WC punches.  Some WC schools may teach that (please jump in if yours does) but ours teaches fast, powerful, and rooted punching. 


			
				eyebeams said:
			
		

> A chung choi (WC chain punch) is not really a very powerful punch


Fast doesn't mean weak, and powerful doesn't mean slow. In fact we have several styles at our school(WC, Thai Chi, Jow Ga, San Shou) so we get a nice mix of different application and types of punching.  WC punches easily match the power of any of those arts. In fact, your above statement is only true if a WC punch is done wrong.


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## brothershaw

Another good post, also I would like to add chain punches are over publicized, there are so many other strikes to use.  For some reason people love them I dont , except as a training tool.


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## TaiChiTJ

In my humble opinion the photograph on last month's cover of TaeKwondo Times showing a HapKiDo master follows tai chi principles: 

http://www.taekwondotimes.com/145may05.html

For TC players who are a liitle uneasy with me pointing to another art I might mention that similar applications are shown in Jang Jwing Ming's tai chi chuan books. (not sure if i spelled his name right)

Notice that the HapKiDo master is directly in front of the opponent and most likely he would get wolloped by the straight incoming Wing Chun punch. 

However this could be modified to deal with a straight incoming punch. First you have to get off to the side of the opponent, then, where you put the right hand could be modified. It could be the forehead ( if you are tall enough and you have the arm length ) it could be the chin, 

 - or -

my teacher has shown me it could be just inside the opponents right shoulder. The left hand stays where it is in the photograph. It is important to understand your right hand is not doing a strike per se but more of a downward push, bouncing the opponents torso downward and then up and back, while your left hand pulls in slightly. 

Here's my instructors site: 

http://www.classicaldimension.com/about.htm


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## dmax999

Here is something else to consider on this line of thought...

In TC you would want to make contact with your opponents arms as soon as possible.  Once this is accomplished by the TC person the chain punch is no longer a viable attack no matter how fast, powerful, or good.  At this point it will become a match of push hands vs chi saou with kicks and full power strikes added in.

Having been decent at WC at one time, I agree the chain punches are not weak in the least.  Anyone thinking they are has not seen them properly executed.  The chain punches would probably work if done before the TC guy had a chance to make contact because he knew nothing about them.

I tend to think TC and WC are somewhat similar in many respects (not all aspects), but the more Xing Yi I learn the more I think WC is based off of it in some loose fashion.


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## ed-swckf

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Here is something else to consider on this line of thought...
> 
> In TC you would want to make contact with your opponents arms as soon as possible. Once this is accomplished by the TC person the chain punch is no longer a viable attack no matter how fast, powerful, or good. At this point it will become a match of push hands vs chi saou with kicks and full power strikes added in.


The WC prcticioner would also want contact as soon as possible, whether it be with their oppnents arms or their opponents face.  The chain punch (lin wan kuen, not chung choi as someone said - chung choi is actually a slightly different technique) is used to fill the gap.  The hole in the oponents defence is what the WC person will be seeking or manipulating toward.  Once contact is made i feel neither art will be able to dictate who would win, it would simply come down to who was able to relax the most and avoid tension and work their sensitivity training to the best advantage.  I have a great amount of respect for TC as i do for most arts.  The truth is definitely that all arts can be effective and all arts fit some people better than others.



			
				dmax999 said:
			
		

> Having been decent at WC at one time, I agree the chain punches are not weak in the least. Anyone thinking they are has not seen them properly executed. The chain punches would probably work if done before the TC guy had a chance to make contact because he knew nothing about them.


Again the chain punches will work if the WC person is able to manipulate the TC person, they can be a devastating invasion but its going to be down to who is able to use sensitivity to maximise the situation.  



			
				dmax999 said:
			
		

> I tend to think TC and WC are somewhat similar in many respects (not all aspects), but the more Xing Yi I learn the more I think WC is based off of it in some loose fashion.


I'd agree with this and thats what makes it difficult to make a decision of what would win, i wouldn't feel to bad as a WC person to be overcome by a TC person, its a really really good art.  I have no doubt that on their respective days each would overcome the other but its a completely subjective matter.  I've played with a few TC people before and had great joy but i would'nt assume that it meant WC was better than TC.


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## SwedishChef

We did some chain punching in Sil Lum Chuan Tao.  I always liked them but not all chain punches are created equal.  It seemed to me they were best when the circular motion was very tight, almost imperceptable.  I saw alot of people over rotate, like their arms were working bicycle pedals.  Any thoughts?


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## ed-swckf

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> We did some chain punching in Sil Lum Chuan Tao. I always liked them but not all chain punches are created equal. It seemed to me they were best when the circular motion was very tight, almost imperceptable. I saw alot of people over rotate, like their arms were working bicycle pedals. Any thoughts?


Well nothing gets in the way of the punching hand, it fires in a straight line although at an angle.  The circular motion is only for the withdrawing hand, the withdrawing hand needs to withdraw as fast as possible so, yes, the tighter the circle the quicker it is.  So long as its not so tight it interfears with the punching hand its good to go, i'm hoping it was predominantly students still learning who were over rotating, they will then hopefully learn to refine this, if it was a teacher of the system then problems begin.


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## Franc0

SwedishChef said:
			
		

> My question is does it have effective ways of dealing with wing chun's rapid fire strikes, blocks and trapping?



Yes, since no art is undefeatable and is determined by the level of the individuals skill, I would say simply put an advanced Taijiquan practitioner against a beginning Wing Chun student, and there ya go. But then again if you reverse that, you'd get the same result, but in the WC'ers favor :asian: 
Ahhh, but what if you put together two practitoners of equal time in training you ask? Again that would be determined by the individuals skill. So you'd probably get different results with different individuals. Hope ya get my drift.

Franco


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## brothershaw

In  most of these posts people post as if the only thing wc has is the chain punch- 

Forgetting about lan, bil, low kicks, palm strikes, etc, in many varieties.
As funny as it sounds if I were to face a tai ji guy and the only thing I had was chain punches I would rather lose because there are so many things to the system, chain punches are kind of basic where as performing the other strikes in continuous variable succession to different targets shows more SKILL.

Not to offend anyone if you like them but I am EXTREMELY biased against them for anything other than training purposes, there is so much more to the art of wing chun. People spend years learning the art, years.


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## SwedishChef

masterfinger said:
			
		

> Yes, since no art is undefeatable and is determined by the level of the individuals skill, I would say simply put an advanced Taijiquan practitioner against a beginning Wing Chun student, and there ya go. But then again if you reverse that, you'd get the same result, but in the WC'ers favor :asian:
> Ahhh, but what if you put together two practitoners of equal time in training you ask? Again that would be determined by the individuals skill. So you'd probably get different results with different individuals. Hope ya get my drift.
> 
> Franco


My reason for the thread was just to see if taiji had an answer to WCs close range things.  It would seem that it does.  I've seen some example clips since first posting too.  

I think most of us know about WCs non-chain attacks, which are very effective, no disrespect.


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## KungFuGrrrl

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Not
> Tai-Chi and Wing-Chun, in my opinion, are actually very similar. Of course there are differences, but both have extremely powerful strikes, heavy reliance on a "chi-sau" type exercise, and tend to not to kick high. Tai-Chi moves seem more "natural" to execute, with Wing-Chun being very non-natural and was difficult for me when starting it.


My feeling is TCC and WC compliment one another....when I would practice blindfolded chi sau, my Sifu and teachers say they could see my TCC coming out and I actually did better against my oppponent while I was blind folded .....It seems I worked with the energy more.... with eyes open I tend to anticipate...

(I have been involved in MA for 10 years) I have a bit of disability...ruptured disc.....) I dont know why it sais white belt under my name.... will have to check into that.. Im obviously new here.


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## 7starmantis

KungFuGrrrl said:
			
		

> (I have been involved in MA for 10 years) I have a bit of disability...ruptured disc.....) I dont know why it sais white belt under my name.... will have to check into that.. Im obviously new here.


 Welcome KungFuGrrrl,
  It shows a white belt under your name to show your "ranking" here at MArtialTalk. As you post you will increase in rank accordingly. Just a fun way to keep up with who has been posting alot here. 

 If you have any questions, feel free to ask!

 MT Senior Mod
 7starmantis
 Adam C


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## dmax999

Someone above mentioned that WC and TCC people of same level would do just as well.  I have a difference of opinion there.  If you have two people of equal experience the less the two have the better the WC person will do.  Inside of six months of rigirous practice I would bet a WC guy could do well against a new black belt of most other styles (obviously not all).  Inside of six months a TCC person would be about as effective as a fish flopping around if they solely relied on their TCC.

However, I think over the long run TCC people can always improve where other arts tend you leave you there after you have "mastered" all of the techniques.  TCC is difficult to learn, and more difficult to find a good qualified teacher.  But I believe that TCC can be the undefeatable style, it just requires the skill of the user to be undefeatable.  The only weakness of TCC I have yet to find is the lack of skill of the user.  It seems to be designed to work that way.


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## Flying Crane

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Someone above mentioned that WC and TCC people of same level would do just as well. I have a difference of opinion there. If you have two people of equal experience the less the two have the better the WC person will do. Inside of six months of rigirous practice I would bet a WC guy could do well against a new black belt of most other styles (obviously not all). Inside of six months a TCC person would be about as effective as a fish flopping around if they solely relied on their TCC.
> 
> However, I think over the long run TCC people can always improve where other arts tend you leave you there after you have "mastered" all of the techniques. TCC is difficult to learn, and more difficult to find a good qualified teacher. But I believe that TCC can be the undefeatable style, it just requires the skill of the user to be undefeatable. The only weakness of TCC I have yet to find is the lack of skill of the user. It seems to be designed to work that way.


I think you have made some valid points.  I believe that the internal arts like Tai Chi CHuan and Baqua have a much greater ultimate potential than most of the other arts, but it is much more difficult, and takes much longer, to reach the level of potential.  I think that most people never reach that kind of level, and their ability to use Tai Chi in a fighting encounter is very limited at best.  Meantime, a good solid training in an art like Wing Chun will give you fighting skills much more quickly.  It is only after the 20-40 year mark that the Tai Chi person, if they had a good teacher, trained hard, was insightful and somewhat gifted, begins to reach the potential that Tai Chi offers.  Problem for most people is, it can be difficult to stick to it when you see little improvement year after year.


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## bcbernam777

eyebeams said:
			
		

> One uprooting shot is worth a dozen chain punches. Wing Chunners like to intercept, angle and drive their chung chois in with advancing steps. To counter it:
> 
> * Learn how to take a shot. A chung choi (WC chain punch) is not really a very powerful punch, but if you have no full contact experience it'll still rock you.
> 
> * Be aggressive. Stop thinking of taiji as a passive art just because it uses internal training and redirection. You should actively seek to adhere to and strike the opponent, driving forward with quick steps.
> 
> * Maintain pun. Too many taiji stylists have a limp pun. Pun is taiji's primary bridging technique. It needs to be forceful without being tense.
> 
> * Learn and use shuai (throwing) applications. Good Taiji shuai is at a closer rang than WC equivalents. Smother him and chuck him over your hip. Use Hold Golden Ball for a wrestling-style over-under and flip him on his back.
> 
> * Vary your frame. Taiji techniques can happen in large and small frames. Wing Chun is mostly a small frame art. Widen your stance and movements for major blows and to cover distance quickly. If you can do a fast step in a wide frame, you can run over a small framed opponent.


The general tone and information in your post is good however i would have to repectfully disagree with the comment about the WC punch lacking power, the wing chun punch contains a great deal of power, it is up to the individual practicioner however to train that power, the power in a WC punch is not like an iron bar, its like a whip that penetrates and hurts inside, even from a shorter distance.


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## dmax999

Flying Crane,

You worded my statement better then I could have.  I do disagree on the 20-40 year time part.  It only takes a couple years to get good at fighting with Tai Chi.  The problem is finding the correct teacher for those couple years.  Where I am I can't seem to find a class that will have push hands practice on any kind of regular schedule (Its usually 15 mins once every 4 months, no exaggeration)

I think after a year someone could learn the Yang long form, another year of push hands doing it two hours a week, and third year sparring for two hours a week would develop a Tai Chi fighter.  Find a Tai Chi class in the USA that will actually train fighting and go there.  Most are too afraid of scarring off the crowd that comes just for health reasons and almost refuse to acknolodge TC as a fighting art.


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## Flying Crane

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Flying Crane,
> 
> You worded my statement better then I could have. I do disagree on the 20-40 year time part. It only takes a couple years to get good at fighting with Tai Chi. The problem is finding the correct teacher for those couple years. Where I am I can't seem to find a class that will have push hands practice on any kind of regular schedule (Its usually 15 mins once every 4 months, no exaggeration)
> 
> I think after a year someone could learn the Yang long form, another year of push hands doing it two hours a week, and third year sparring for two hours a week would develop a Tai Chi fighter. Find a Tai Chi class in the USA that will actually train fighting and go there. Most are too afraid of scarring off the crowd that comes just for health reasons and almost refuse to acknolodge TC as a fighting art.


I agree with you about the ability of a Tai Chi person to become a fighter more quickly, but I think the true potential, meaning a really solid understanding of the chi flow and useage of chi flow is very subtle and takes much longer.  Any martial art can become useful more quickly if you train in a manner to make is such.  However, I think there is a danger in turning Tai Chi into an external art.  While it can work in that manner, I think you cannot reach the art's true potential in that manner.


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## arnisador

I think that those who say the Tai Chi stylist would likely position himself to avoid being on the receiving end of such a barrage are on the right track...but as we all know, it doesn't always work that way! One a chain punch attack is started, stepping off-line or jumping way back are the best approachs, I believe. Does Tai Chi support either of these defenses?


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## brothershaw

I think the key is to find a tai chi school where in addition to the form and mechanics of tai chi they also show you how to strike, footwork, and have some degree of sparring. Otherwise its like magical thinking to assume you will be able to deal with an attack if you havent even had to deal with a relatively safe simulation or sparring ( not that anything is a guarantee).
And doing those things doesnt make it external if you use the same internal mechanics to hit the bag as you do moving in the air.
At the 20 year mark in a martial art I would rather be refining my skills and passing them on to others rather than still trying to " get it". Life is way too short.

Besides in the best Shaw Brothers movies the hero never trained longer than a few years b4 he got his revenge anyway.lol.


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