# Whats the point of reverse punch?



## Bullshidog (Feb 3, 2015)

I am quite curious whats the difference between just throwing a  straight in boxing and the reverse punch in Japanese arts.

n fact some of those reverses (at least coming from my background in boxing) can be better spent using an uppercut 

In fact the concept of left jab and then reverse doesn't make sense to me. It seems better spent with a traditional left left right combo.


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## drop bear (Feb 3, 2015)

I use a similar to the reverse punch as a straight right body shot. It changes my levels without breaking at the hip.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 3, 2015)

You are spoofing us, right? Is there an hidden camera somewhere?


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2015)

How about, because Boxing and what you are calling Japanese arts are two complete different things. How about the reverse punch was designed for something different than the modern day boxing 'straight punch'.
How about because boxing is about using only your fist for contact and the martial arts are about much more unless in a specific type of competition.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 3, 2015)

Assuming this is a real question and not a bait for an argument. Your premise makes no sense. The two punches have completely different machanics.  I have pondered for years over which is better for my tastes....but they should not be confused nor should one be discounted simply because of a bais.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 3, 2015)

Bullshidog said:


> I am quite curious whats the difference between just throwing a  straight in boxing and the reverse punch in Japanese arts.
> 
> n fact some of those reverses (at least coming from my background in boxing) can be better spent using an uppercut
> 
> In fact the concept of left jab and then reverse doesn't make sense to me. It seems better spent with a traditional left left right combo.



From my experience, the reverse punch is easy to learn at a basic level but very hard to master. When you're first taught the reverse punch you're taught to start with your hand at your hip, palm up, and throw it out and twist it as you throw so that it is palm down when you hit and you strike with the first two knuckles but then as you get more advanced you learn that there is much more to it. There's hip rotation, proper rotation of the hand, pullback, snapping the other arm back as you throw, ect. The straight punch in boxing is done by firing your rear hand forward but you don't rotate your hand since the punch is thrown palm down the entire time. With the reverse punch it is thrown palm up until right at the very end when you make contact and you then twist it so that you finish palm down before quickly retracting the punch. That way, your first two knuckles will drill into the target making it more effective and when you retract the target will vibrate causing it to do even more damage. Also, you want to make your hand as hard as a rock at the moment of impact but otherwise, when you're throwing and retracting the punch, you want it loose. This can be particularly effective against precise targets such as the solar plexus. 

With the jab, reverse punch combo is that the jab is supposed to more or less be a distraction to set up the reverse punch. Particularly when you throw a jab towards the face to bring your opponent's attention upstairs and then fire the reverse punch into the midsection full force and to full effect. 

In some situations an uppercut or a lef left right combo might work better and with your boxing background you might be able to utilize it to greater effect. But different arts use different techniques. You have to find out what works best for you and use it to your best ability.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

In the question _what's the point of a reverse punch_ by "point" I believe you mean what's the purpose of a reverse punch, yes?

To hit the other guy. What the heck else would be the purpose?


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> In the question _what's the point of a reverse punch_ by "point" I believe you mean what's the purpose of a reverse punch, yes?
> 
> To hit the other guy. What the heck else would be the purpose?


Maybe to draw a bladed weapon and thrust rather than punching. Same fundamental movement different action within the movement.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Maybe to draw a bladed weapon and thrust rather than punching. Same fundamental movement different action within the movement.



Good point, Danny.


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## Balrog (Feb 13, 2015)

A good reverse punch is an excellent setup for a back leg kick as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 13, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> Assuming this is a real question and not a bait for an argument. Your premise makes no sense. The two punches have completely different machanics.  I have pondered for years over which is better for my tastes....but they should not be confused nor should one be discounted simply because of a bais.


 If you set aside the stylized form of the reverse punch demonstrated in kata and look at how boxers and karateka actually fight in a full-contact environment, the karate reverse punch and the boxing straight right start to resemble each other to the point where there is as much of a difference between two individual fighters than there is between the two styles.


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2015)

"When all you have is a hammer everything looks like nails".

If you look at all the movements as either a punch or a block then you miss most of what the application potentials are within any art.
Unfortunately most never learn much more than punching and blocking and are never taught to look at the movement, understand the movement and use the movement for more than a punch or a block.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 14, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you set aside the stylized form of the reverse punch demonstrated in kata and look at how boxers and karateka actually fight in a full-contact environment, the karate reverse punch and the boxing straight right start to resemble each other to the point where there is as much of a difference between two individual fighters than there is between the two styles.



Well that is a different subject than what i was addressing.  
1..we have to agree on what a reverse punch is
  for me it is the traditional, typical shotokan style, hand chambered next to the ribs, palm up position. the arm extends outward keeping the elbow pulled in tight next to the ribs, fist turns palm down at the end of travel.  usually thrown with the right hand having the right foot back, left foot forward.

if you compare this reverse punch to a text book boxers straight right . the over all bio mechanics of the body are very different.  the major difference is in the orientation of the elbow and the rotation of the shoulder.
(again i like to put in the disclaimer this is only my experience and the way i do things, other people may be different)

in the reverse punch the palm is up and elbow is kept tight to the body.  as the arm is extended the hand,elbow and shoulder is kept inline with the force vector that runs parallel with the shoulder (the force vector plane is horizontal) .
in a boxers punch the arm is in a "guard" position to start and the palm position is irrelivant but usually facing the throwers centerline or rotated slightly outwards to the target. as the arm extends the hand is rotated palm down at the begining of the punch which rotates the elbow outward away from the body creating a force vector on a vertical plane.  the hand ,elbow and shoulder are now in allignment in a vertical vector plane and extend towards the target.

in a reverse punch (looking at the punch from the throwers right side) the shoulder rotates in a  back, down then forward to the target this is counter clockwise rotation.
a boxers punch has the shoulder rotate down, backward , upward then forward to the target. this is clockwise rotation.

my discriptions may be very hard to visualize and without a video clip i dont think i can really get the idea across.


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## Hanzou (Feb 14, 2015)

Training. You rarely ever see it in fighting.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Training. You rarely ever see it in fighting.


I cannot address if it is rare or why. What I will say is that I use both in my training.  Each has its place and it's use.


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> I cannot address if it is rare or why..


Rare in sport competition fighting. Very rare.


hoshin1600 said:


> Each has its place and it's use.


Yeap.

For the most part punching is done from where the hands is. It isn't chambered to the hip prior to punching. If it is at the hip or hip area there was a purpose other than chambering or setting up for a punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2015)

The reverse punch is often the power hand, but that's not a solid rule because people are able to generate significant power from the lead hand.  It's just in general the lead hand is the fast punching hand that the other hand is the one that they are going to try to knock you out with.  

In martial arts.  A reverse punch often takes advantage of the opening that the Lead Hand makes.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Training. You rarely ever see it in fighting.


I have never seen that being used in the ring either.

Assume you have trained the reverse punch all your life. If you have never used it in sparring, will you still train that? I won't.

May be the question should be asked as, "Why don't you want to punch from your guard?" If you are only interested in head punch, to punch from your waist will not only open your head up for punching, your punch will also need to travel more distance to reach to your target.







When you step from CMA into Sanda/Sanshou, that will be the 1st thing that you have to change.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 22, 2015)

The purpose of the reverse punch is to deliver an extremely powerful punch. It is rarely used in tournament or street fighting anymore probably because no one really knows how to throw it anymore. 

As a training tool, it is a great long range movement for working on end point timing. (Yes, I meant long range...) The drills that are used to develop power at various points of delivery cross over to other strikes.


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## Drose427 (Aug 22, 2015)

A reversed punch is just a punch starting palm up (or mostly palm up) and rotating at the end, and coming back to postion

Thrown all the time in Traditional tournaments and by a lot of karateka in the UFC

It isnt the whole stylized thing we see in forms,

Thats like saying an uppercut isnt an uppercut if im doing it from a International kickboxing stance instead of the traditonal boxing stance


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have never seen that being used in the ring either.


Reverse punch used


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Reverse punch used


That punch came from the "guard" and not came from the "waist" (as shown in the following picture).







I assume the definition of "reverse punch" that you always punch from your "waist".


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

The definition of the reverse punch (_gyaku-zuki_) is a punch that is executed by the arm opposite the lead leg. It can be from the guard or the waist, in fact anywhere it's practical, it's simply punching from the 'back' arm. People read to much into things sometimes.


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## marques (Aug 23, 2015)

Reverse is good to perturb opponent's vision (even without connect) and close distance.
Reverse can surprise a boxer.  By other worlds, is another way to open the guard (at least) when the (boring and predictable) jabs fail...


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 23, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I assume the definition of "reverse punch" that you always punch from your "waist".


That's a narrow definition of a reverse punch.  It's practiced like that in form because it's teaching you how to correctly generate and connect power from your waist. The motion is extreme because that's the easiest way to feel how to connect the energy from waist to the punch. Once you are able to use the waist to generate the power you'll be able to throw a reverse punch without winding up and telegraphing it.

My definition of a reverse punch is the same as Tez3 has stated. 


Tez3 said:


> The definition of the reverse punch (_gyaku-zuki_) is a punch that is executed by the arm opposite the lead leg


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## elder999 (Aug 23, 2015)

The reverse punch is extremely useful if you're controlling-as in grabbing,or, in some cases, pushing-the person with the lead hand.

It's also used in boxing......I should add that one of my first knockouts as a teenager was a reverse punch to the armpit-thought I'd killed the guy, he went down so hard!


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

Just some thoughts...when karate punches are performed from a guard they are called “kizami zuki” – a term often meaning “leading punch” but often translated as “jab”.

What people seem to regard as the main distinction between the boxing jab and the kizami zuki is that the former is usually performed with a retraction or snap-back, where the latter is not.

Therefore, there is no reason for a karateka not to practice and use snapping punches (ie. jabs) other than a rigid adherence to basic or kihon form.

Far more importantly, combination techniques are what render the whole "snap back" issue irrelevant: just as in boxing, karate uses a kizami zuki as a "set up" to other techniques, meaning that as soon as it is "thrown" the punch is being retratcted so as to give momentum to a technique with the other arm (eg. a reverse punch or "gyaku zuki").

In this respect karate and boxing "jabs" are really indistinguishable, even though karate basics are often isolated for (kime) practice.

Now while jabs have been known to produce the occasional knockout they are not generally regarded as “power” blows.

The reason is simple; they don’t have much space within which to accelerate, resulting in a lower velocity at the point of impact.

Using the simple equation (Force)  P = M (acceleration) x v (Time) this means the amount of momentum generated will be less, hence the amount of momentum transferred (the impulse) is going to be smaller and so is the amount of force applied to the target.

Some consider it a given, that the principal karate punch is a straight thrust and that it corresponds with the boxer’s jab, it is little wonder then that karate punches are seen as “less powerful” than the rest of the boxer’s arsenal – the “follow-through punches”.

With the exception of jabs, boxers don’t attempt to stop their punches at a predetermined point. Instead they adopt a “follow-through” to their punches. Boxer's train their footwork to address the loss of balance due to overextendeding the punch into the target, as opposed to the Karateka's retraction at the stop point.

This is less evident with uppercuts (“ura zuki” and “tate zuki”) than, say, hooks or crosses.

However the karate variants all involve a distinct “stop” executed by the performer.

The boxing versions either swing past or, in the case of the uppercut, continue until they have exhausted their velocity at the end of their vertical flight path.

It can be argued that the weight, and large contact area on the gloves of a boxer rob him of force-efficiency, therefore a greater amount of power is required. As a result, there is a valid need to punch through, at all times. A boxer's punch by necessity has to be thrown with more power than an ungloved one.

In this case, form follows function.

The powerhouse of follow-through punches is, of course the right cross (or just “cross”).


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> The reverse punch is extremely useful if you're controlling-as in grabbing,or, in some cases, pushing-the person with the lead hand.
> 
> It's also used in boxing......I should add that one of my first knockouts as a teenager was a reverse punch to the armpit-thought I'd killed the guy, he went down so hard!



Sounds like you probably hit the pressure point in his armpit.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Just some thoughts...when karate punches are performed from a guard they are called “kizami zuki” – a term often meaning “leading punch” but often translated as “jab”.



Kizamizuki though is executed off the leading hand not the back hand. Leading punch/jab off the leading hand. The reverse punch is kyakuzuki. Front punches, in Wado are more commonly called junzuki.
the first punch most karateka learn is sonobazuki..'same place punch', this is the standard standing still punching with alternate arms which is the staple of film directors when they want to show a martial arts class, that and the reverse punch from the waist in a long stance ( in Wado we do much shorter stances)

We have front snap punches in karate (Wado Ryu certainly) they are called tobikomizuki, executed off the front/leading arm. We also have an offline front snap punch ..nagashizuki. Uppercuts are agezuki.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

I should add that both tobikomizuki and nagashizuki are done from guard.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Kizamizuki though is executed off the leading hand not the back hand. Leading punch/jab off the leading hand. The reverse punch is kyakuzuki. Front punches, in Wado are more commonly called junzuki.
> the first punch most karateka learn is sonobazuki..'same place punch', this is the standard standing still punching with alternate arms which is the staple of film directors when they want to show a martial arts class, that and the reverse punch from the waist in a long stance ( in Wado we do much shorter stances)
> 
> We have front snap punches in karate (Wado Ryu certainly) they are called tobikomizuki, executed off the front/leading arm. We also have an offline front snap punch ..nagashizuki. Uppercuts are agezuki.



I think it was clear when I said leading punch that I meant lead and not back hand. More so, when I said jab.

This was brought up to discuss the lead hand's jab role prior to a combo....with reverse punch within the boxer/karateka comparison.

And yep... It always gets me chuckling, when I see a movie, and an instructor has a class of "black belt" teenagers doing the same alternating arms kihon in place, for two or three scenes.

Or one steps.

Its probably the cheapest or easiest way to film that dojo "class is now in session" scene, therefore its ubiquitous.


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## elder999 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Sounds like you probably hit the pressure point in his armpit.


 Really? I'd have never guessed.......



I mean, I was so sure that what I'd hit was the axillary process of the brachial plexus, but what the hell do I know?


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Just some thoughts...when *karate punches are performed from a guard* they are called “kizami zuki” – a term often meaning “leading punch” but often translated as “jab”.





TSDTexan said:


> I think it was clear when I said leading punch that I meant lead and not back hand. More so, when I said jab



No, it wasn't clear as you can see. You stated 'karate punches' and called them 'jab's/leading punches' whereas, as we know, punches can come off both hands.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Really? I'd have never guessed.......
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, I was so sure that what I'd hit was the axillary process of the brachial plexus, but what the hell do I know?



I was simply guessing at what happened. Where's the problem?


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> No, it wasn't clear as you can see. You stated 'karate punches' and called them 'jab's/leading punches' whereas, as we know, punches can come off both hands.



Leading by its used context in my statement, refers to a lead hand punch and , that should have been clear enough.

I get the feeling, although I could be wrong, that you are being obtuse or plain difficult here. If so, Why?

In the future, for you Tez3, I will refer to the lead hand, specifically as Lead-hand or hand1... And the rear as rear-hand or hand2.

And for feet as lead-foot or foot1... Rear-foot, foot2

If that is going to help you apprehend, what I am writing.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Leading by its used context in my statement, refers to a lead hand punch and , that should have been clear enough.
> 
> I get the feeling, although I could be wrong, that you are being obtuse here.
> 
> ...




My days of _apprehending_ things and people ended when I retired.

You have no need to be snippy and certainly no need to make this personal.

If you are going to be precise then please use the correct Japanese terms as is usual in karate.


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## elder999 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I was simply guessing at what happened. Where's the problem?


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## elder999 (Aug 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> My days of _apprehending_ things and people ended when I retired.
> .


 
@Tez3 -he appears to be addicted to the polysemous, or to secondary definitions....."apprehend" can mean "understand," though why he simply didn't use "understand," or "comprehend"  is beyond me.....I'm imagining a college boy, but his profile says he's 41.....


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> @Tez3 -he appears to be addicted to polysemous secondary definitions....."apprehend" can mean "understand," though why he simply didn't use "understand," or "comprehend"  is beyond me.....I'm imagining *a college boy,* but his profile says he's 41.....



That old eh?  Of course he could just be a distant, less amusing relative of Mrs. Malaprop.

There's no point on having a discussion on technicalities if the terms are going to be vague. I don't suppose many of you play or understand cricket (Aussies excepted) so if I told you it was a couple of teams of players who have a big stick and a ball you would be none the wiser but if I explained properly telling you in plain terms how the game is played (don't worry I won't ) you would follow, it's the same with karate, not all posters on here actually practise karate coming from other styles, so we need to keep to terms we all understand.
The phrase 'when karate punches are done from guard they are called........' is on par with my comment that cricket is played by teams with a stick and ball, it gives you an idea but doesn't tell you exactly what it is. It may be obvious to the writer it's from the front arm just as it's obvious to me what you do with a cricket ball and ball but leaves non players//non karateka scratching their heads as it was vague and didn't lead to any better understanding of the subject.


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## marques (Aug 23, 2015)

marques said:


> Reverse is good to perturb opponent's vision (even without connect) and close distance.
> Reverse can surprise a boxer.  By other worlds, is another way to open the guard (at least) when the (boring and predictable) jabs fail...


Actually I'm talking about *back fist*. Just the portuguese name (the one I used) for it is very close to 'reserve'...  And I didn't pay attention to other comments that make it clear.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

Vertical backfist...uraken tatemawashiuchi can be used in the same way as you described, uraken yokomawashiuchi is the more usual horizontal backfist


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> View attachment 19469



What's wrong with stating the obvious?


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## elder999 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> What's wrong with stating the obvious?


 
It's overly didactic, supercilious, and can reek of condescension.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> If you are going to be precise then please use the correct Japanese terms as is usual in karate.



Correct Japanese terms? Here are my terms for upperpunch/uppercut that I used when I said ura zuki and Tate Zuki.

Proper Japanse 裏突き
Japanese Romanization:Ura Zuki  or Ura-Tsuki
English translation    "Upper punch"
Translation Source: Higaonna, Morio (1985). Traditional Karatedo Vol. 1 Fundamental Techniques. pp. 42–46.
ISBN 0-8048-2110-0

Other uses of Ura Zuki:
morote ura zuki
諸手刻み裏突き
also known as
heikō ura zuki
並行裏突き

Morote kizami ura zuki  translated from proper Japanese is (two-handed inverted punch or double hand inverted uppercut)

In Shintani Wadōkai, morote ura zuki is this punch:
( )  http://www.shinkitaikarate.ca/Scona/Glossary/M/morote ura zuki/morote ura zuki Shintani.jpg  ()

from kata Pinan Godan and better translated as “reinforced inverted punch”

In mainline Wadō ryū, the technique is slightly different and called jōdan ura zuki no tsukkomi 上段裏突きの突っ込み

Source:
Morote ura zuki

_--------_
縦突き
Tate zuki
Tate-Zuki (Tate-Tsuki)
"Vertical Punch"

Also known as seiken tate zuki 正拳縦突き (forefist vertical punch).

This punch is where your  Lead-fist is in a vertical position (unlike the typical horizontal fist position used in most punches).
*Shingo Ohgami *





Shingo Ohgami (8th Dan Wadokai in 2009) demonstrating Tate Zuki in his book: "Introduction to Karate"


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> View attachment 19470
> 
> It's overly didactic, supercilious, and can reek of condescension.



Sorry you feel that way.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

Cut and paste is also obvious.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

I have all the books written by Shingo Ohgami, required reading and study for Wado Ryu karateka, not sure why you would post a photo of shuto yoko mawashi uchi though, has nothing to do with 'reverse' punch.

Now we come to page 95 of Ohgami Sensei's book, interesting this because you have posted a photograph of tatezuki jodan ( there was a photo of tatezuki chudan as well) this is the vertical punch not the 'jab' punch you were talking about, the hand is in a different position, you should have posted the pictures from page 94 seizuki jodan and seizuki chudan.
Ohgami sensei explains how important seizuki is, why it's trained from the waist and why you need to twist the body, it's good reading. Training with him is even better than reading. He trained under the founder

Your cut and paste of various bits and bobs means nothing to be honest, other than go off the subject of 'reverse punch', there is an accepted and understood method of nomenclature in karate, we use words such as gi, matawatte, nage, sensei, uke, tori and dachi all understandable. It's very simple and saves confusion, try it.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Cut and paste is also obvious.


Kinda nesscessary, when my usage of a term is called incorrect, so I am obligated to cite reference materials.

Sorry you are not getting what I said when I said it.

I clearly identified my sources for the material, and in no way stated the material was my own.

Merely stated these are examples of what I meant.

Sorry if you dont get me here.
At this juncture, I really dont think your going to understand me or the things I write, so I am not going to further trouble myself with trying to communicate with you.

Peace be with you.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 23, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have all the books written by Shingo Ohgami, required reading and study for Wado Ryu karateka, not sure why you would post a photo of shuto yoko mawashi uchi though, has nothing to do with 'reverse' punch.
> 
> Now we come to page 95 of Ohgami Sensei's book, interesting this because you have posted a photograph of tatezuki jodan ( there was a photo of tatezuki chudan as well) this is the vertical punch not the 'jab' punch you were talking about, the hand is in a different position, you should have posted the pictures from page 94 seizuki jodan and seizuki chudan.
> Ohgami sensei explains how important seizuki is, why it's trained from the waist and why you need to twist the body, it's good reading. Training with him is even better than reading. He trained under the founder
> ...



Thank you.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Kinda nesscessary, when my usage of a term is called incorrect, so I am obligated to cite reference materials.




It was called incomplete and not understandable not incorrect. You failed to understand my analogy and you have failed to post, in your citing of reference materials to make anymore sense. You posted up a picture of a 'knife hand block' saying that "This punch is where your Lead-fist is in a vertical position (unlike the typical horizontal fist position used in most punches)."
There is no 'morote ura zuki in Wado's Pinan Godan either.
None of which has anything to do with the OP's question about the 'reverse' punch.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2015)

Here's something to have fun with......
Biomechanical Analysis of the Reverse Punch Technique in Karate and Boxing » Sendo-Ryu Blog


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