# Kata Applications



## Never_A_Reflection (May 20, 2014)

Hello everyone,

This weekend, I recorded a few kata application videos. The first one is an application for the last few movements in our Passai Sho kata, also called Itosu Passai:

Passai Sho (Itosu Passai) Oyo Bunkai

The second application I recorded was for the opening movements of Naihanchi Nidan:

Naihanchi Nidan Oyo Bunkai

The third application I recorded was for the opening movements of Naihanchi Sandan:

Naihanchi Sandan Oyo Bunkai


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2014)

In your 1st clip. your opponent's free left arm can give you a lot of trouble. You may have to do something about it.


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## Touch Of Death (May 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In your 1st clip. your opponent's free left arm can give you a lot of trouble. You may have to do something about it.


Speed of action and proper angle entry will help that. Not to mention this could end up being a more dynamic technique by knocking the guy away, which would weaken a follow up left in many cases.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 20, 2014)

Or you can add a little leg pop to the throw similar to a judo tai otoshi. You'd be surprised at how much extra lift you can get by having an opponent pulled on to your bent leg then straightening it out to pop him over. Of course always off balancer he opponent first before attempting the throw.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Speed of action and proper angle entry will help that. Not to mention this could end up being a more dynamic technique by knocking the guy away, which would weaken a follow up left in many cases.


If you use "hip throw" on your opponent (as shown in the 1st clip), your opponent's free arm can wrap around your waist, spin with you, and drag you down to the ground with him.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Or you can add a little leg pop to the throw similar to a judo tai otoshi. You'd be surprised at how much extra lift you can get by having an opponent pulled on to your bent leg then straightening it out to pop him over. Of course always off balancer he opponent first before attempting the throw.


IMO, your opponent's left arm can get you before your leg pop can get him. The reason is simple. You have to use your back to touch your opponent's chest before you can apply your leg pop. Your opponent can wrap his left arm around your waist, spin with you, and never allow your back to touch on his chest.

To apply "hip throw" when your opponent has one free arm is a very general issue in the grappling art. there are many solutions on this. IMO, before you apply a technique on your opponent, you should analysis how many different ways that he can respond to your attack. This way, you can be one step ahead of your opponent and none of your opponent's respond can surprise you.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, your opponent's left arm can get you before your leg pop can get him. The reason is simple. You have to use your back to touch your opponent's chest before you can apply your leg pop. Your opponent can wrap his left arm around your waist, spin with you, and never allow your back to touch on his chest.
> 
> To apply "hip throw" when your opponent has one free arm is a very general issue in the grappling art. there are many solutions on this. IMO, before you apply a technique on your opponent, you should analysis how many different ways that he can respond to your attack. This way, you can be one step ahead of your opponent and none of your opponent's respond can surprise you.



Well I don't quite understand your comment about the back leg touching the opponents chest.  I will say thats not the ideal grip and footwork for a tai otoshi. I was just saying giving that leg a bend and pop would most likely make it more effective as an application. 

My bread and butter throws are tai otoshi, uchi mata and the osoto gari & variations of those and I will say its not that easy to grab ahold of the opponents back when a judo practitioner off balances and uses correct footwork to apply the throw. 

Here's a video of tai otoshi so you can see the set up and what I meant by leg pop. I also use the cross step footwork that this instructor is speaking of which allows you to unwind and get a good clean throw. 

Check out this video on YouTube:







Sent from my iPhone

But I can see why you think its easy to grab an opponents back with the free arm but its more difficult done then said.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 20, 2014)

And here's tai otoshi applied in competition. 

Check out this video on YouTube:







Sent from my iPhone


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2014)

ST1Doppelganger said:


> Well I don't quite understand your comment about the back *leg* touching the opponents chest.


Not "back leg" but "your back touch your opponent's chest".


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 20, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not "back leg" but "your back touch your opponent's chest".



Well since your a Shuai Jiao practitioner I respect your opinion on the subject.

 Like i said thats not the optimal grip or  foot work for the throw and I was just suggesting the leg pop to make it more efficient from my observations. 

I have a high respect for Shuai Jiao and actually have a bit media on it as well as sambo to add some flavor to my throwing strategy.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2014)

"Safe entry" is always an interesting subject to me. Not sure the OP minds our comments on his clips though.

Since the throwing arts has no form. It's difficult for us to look at from his angle "form -> application". If he starts from "application -> drill", he will have all the freedom to make his technique 100% perfect. Since the form (kata) was designed by somebody in the past. It's very difficult to expect too much out of it.


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## Touch Of Death (May 21, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "Safe entry" is always an interesting subject to me. Not sure the OP minds our comments on his clips though.
> 
> Since the throwing arts has no form. It's difficult for us to look at from his angle "form -> application". If he starts from "application -> drill", he will have all the freedom to make his technique 100% perfect. Since the form (kata) was designed by somebody in the past. It's very difficult to expect too much out of it.


What?


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## Never_A_Reflection (May 21, 2014)

Interesting thoughts. I actually learned that version of tai otoshi from my second judo instructor, as a way to compensate for a shoulder injury that prevents me from correctly executing some of the classical throws. The footwork is different, of course, but I wasn't actually bothering with showing the footwork in this video--it was the arm use I was focusing on, in this case, because a friend and I had been discussing it.


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## ST1Doppelganger (May 21, 2014)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Interesting thoughts. I actually learned that version of tai otoshi from my second judo instructor, as a way to compensate for a shoulder injury that prevents me from correctly executing some of the classical throws. The footwork is different, of course, but I wasn't actually bothering with showing the footwork in this video--it was the arm use I was focusing on, in this case, because a friend and I had been discussing it.



I enjoyed the videos and believe people under estimate the importance of form training while not understanding allot of the hidden techniques or principles that  forms contain. 

I liked how you did the app from the form as the way it was taught in the form. 

The forms are there to teach the student  structure, concepts & apps then its up to the student to dive in to the deeper essence of each segment of the form it's why I love TMA. 

P.S. Sorry that Wang & I hijacked your thread with our discussion.


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## Mark Lynn (Jun 9, 2014)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Interesting thoughts. I actually learned that version of tai otoshi from my second judo instructor, as a way to compensate for a shoulder injury that prevents me from correctly executing some of the classical throws. The footwork is different, of course, but I wasn't actually bothering with showing the footwork in this video--it was the arm use I was focusing on, in this case, because a friend and I had been discussing it.



Never

Thanks for posting your videos I thought they were quite good.

Can you tell me about the Nahanchi form (the 2nd video).  I hadn't seen that version before.  Who developed it etc. etc.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Jun 9, 2014)

Mark Lynn said:


> Never
> 
> Thanks for posting your videos I thought they were quite good.
> 
> Can you tell me about the Nahanchi form (the 2nd video).  I hadn't seen that version before.  Who developed it etc. etc.



Thanks! As part of the Shorinkan system, the Naihanchi Nidan kata that we practice is the one that Chibana Chosin learned from Itosu Anko. It's creator is, most likely, either Matsumura Sokon or Itosu Anko. As Hohan Soken taught a very similar Naihanchi Nidan, and didn't learn from Itosu, it's possible that it was developed by Matsumura Sokon. That said, he did train with Chomo Hanashiro at one point, and learned Pinan Shodan and Nidan from him, so it's possible that's where Hohan Soken learned Naihanchi Nidan. If that's true, then Itosu was probably its creator. Since KishimotoDi--a Shuri-Te system that does NOT include Matsumura in its lineage--doesn't have a Naihanchi Nidan kata, we can assume that it is no older than Matsumura.


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