# What does Modern Arnis need?



## Tgace (Oct 11, 2005)

I asked the question on DocB's thread and agree with Dan A that it probably needs its own thread. As a spin off of the "what have you done to contribute..." thread,I want to ask the question.....

To the people who are leading the art, what do you think Modern Arnis "needs". Does it need more exposure, does it need standardization, does it need centralized control (hows that for a hot topic?). If you folks are going to "contribute", what do you think the direction should be?


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## James Patrick (Oct 11, 2005)

I think that the best thing people could do to "contribute to the art" would be to use the art to help others. 

James


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## DrBarber (Oct 12, 2005)

James Patrick said:
			
		

> I think that the best thing people could do to "contribute to the art" would be to use the art to help others.
> 
> James


Please give us an example or two for clarity and to aid in a discussion.  I can't disagree with the concept, but the idea definately needs some fleshing out.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## James Patrick (Oct 13, 2005)

DrBarber said:
			
		

> Please give us an example or two for clarity and to aid in a discussion. I can't disagree with the concept, but the idea definately needs some fleshing out.
> 
> Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


Well, you know.helping others.. fulfilling the ethical needs of others through ethical means. 

First off, I would say that martial arts schools simply teaching life saving information would be a good start on the road to helping others. This seems so basic, yet so many "martial arts" schools focus on a lot of things that have nothing to do with actually fighting or self-defense. There is no sense of urgency from the instructor to teach life-saving information because the instructor is often occupied with other things. Things such as paying bills, keeping the student coming back (related to paying bills), fulfilling some sort of psychological need by being the god of his own training club, or teaching the "art." The list goes on. Yet, when a student attends a martial arts school, whether it be Modern Arnis or whatever, the expectation is generally that they will learn solid self-defense skills first and foremost. This is the main "ethical need" that they need to fulfill. They could do palates or aerobics for health, a sport for coordination, join a religion or philosophy group for self-improvement, and so on. So, why choose a martial art? The only logical choice is to learn self-defense first and foremost; even if there are other ethical needs to be fulfilled as well. Yet, there seems to be a dichotomy between the needs of the student attending a martial arts class, and the needs and focus of the instructor. This dichotomy is a disservice to the unsuspecting student who is usually investing a lot and expecting to learn self-defense. 

This is the common trend in martial schools in general. I havent seen all the Modern Arnis programs in the world, but based off reading threads here, I see Modern Arnis to be no different then any other art as it pertains to this subject.

So, what can we do to contribute to "Modern Arnis," or any other art? The best thing we could do is remove all the B.S., and find the most effective and efficient way to transfer lifesaving self-defense information to new students who are expecting to at least learn that much. This is the best way that we can help others through our art, and by helping others we are helping "the art" flourish.

Now, there are other ways to help others with our art. Charity fund raisers, kids programs, promoting the health benefits of the art, etc. These are all great things as well, but we mustnt forget that these can be realized outside of the martial arts world. So, our first goal needs to be teaching life-saving information on self-defense. If one does just that much, then one is doing more for "the art" then they will ever know.

Thats just my take. You asked, so I gave you the long answer.  I personally like my short answer better

Yours,

James Patrick


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> To the people who are leading the art, what do you think Modern Arnis "needs". Does it need more exposure, does it need standardization, does it need centralized control (hows that for a hot topic?). If you folks are going to "contribute", what do you think the direction should be?



Most of all, civil communication between the members.  Dr. Randi Shea of IMAF is a great example of this.  Some sort of agreement regarding standards would be good.  That won't happen, though, because of the differing of opinions of what is important in the art and what isn't (I am as bad as anyone on this point).  Public discussions are fine.  Even public disagreements are fine but dissention in the ranks or yapping about "what Remy really said or meant" is counter productive.  Materials being more and more available to the public, especially those which apply to martial artists in other arts woule be good as well.  

That would be a good start.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2005)

I think what we need is more publicity, more press coverage in the martial arts magazines, more training materials as Mr. Anderson suggests, more seminars--keep it growing so it doesn't die out with those who knew the Professor personally.


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## Tgace (Oct 13, 2005)

The "those who knew professor personally" point. Just a discussion point....what is the progression when the founder dies? There will be a point when there will be nobody who knew the professor left. Does the "proximity factor" then shift to the "direct students" and so on down the line?


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2005)

Well, my point is that I fear enthusiasm for the art may dwindle as those who were inspired by the Prof. himself age and die off. Are we doing enough to spread the art to the next generation of enthusiasts? I hope that when there is no one left who knew the Prof. personally that there were stil be enthusiastic practitioners of his art. That's happened for so many other arts--I want to be sure it happens for ours too!

As to the proximity factor, I suppose it's common in many arts (and other arenas, including academia) to speak of 1st generation students, 2nd generation students (i.e., students of students), and so on. But, it's not clear to me that it's such a useful distinction.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 13, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The "those who knew professor personally" point. Just a discussion point....*1.*what is the progression when the founder dies? There will be a point when there will be nobody who knew the professor left. *2.* Does the "proximity factor" then shift to the "direct students" and so on down the line?



1.  You can either look at it as then the branches take over now that the trunk has died or you can look at it like a grenade once it has been exploded.

2.  One would think so.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## DrBarber (Oct 18, 2005)

James Patrick said:
			
		

> Well, you know.helping others.. fulfilling the ethical needs of others through ethical means.
> 
> First off, I would say that martial arts schools simply teaching life saving information would be a good start on the road to helping others. This seems so basic, yet so many "martial arts" schools focus on a lot of things that have nothing to do with actually fighting or self-defense. There is no sense of urgency from the instructor to teach life-saving information because the instructor is often occupied with other things. Things such as paying bills, keeping the student coming back (related to paying bills), fulfilling some sort of psychological need by being the god of his own training club, or teaching the "art." The list goes on. Yet, when a student attends a martial arts school, whether it be Modern Arnis or whatever, the expectation is generally that they will learn solid self-defense skills first and foremost. This is the main "ethical need" that they need to fulfill. They could do palates or aerobics for health, a sport for coordination, join a religion or philosophy group for self-improvement, and so on. So, why choose a martial art? The only logical choice is to learn self-defense first and foremost; even if there are other ethical needs to be fulfilled as well. Yet, there seems to be a dichotomy between the needs of the student attending a martial arts class, and the needs and focus of the instructor. This dichotomy is a disservice to the unsuspecting student who is usually investing a lot and expecting to learn self-defense.
> 
> ...


I'm going to leave the "ethics" contention alone; there are aa number of other concurrent issues that go along with it. All of them are beyond this thread and could be quite lengthy in terms of a discussion.

Speaking strictly for myself, I believe that mobility, footwork and bodyshifting need to be added to the training of most Modern Arnis practicitioners. If there is a single constant that I have found in my years of working within the art, it is that most most people talk about and recognize the concept of mobility however they do not actually use it in their training and instruction. Most Modern Arnis people are actually very immobile. They rely very heavily on their hands, hand speed and stick blocking skills.

In my experiences in dealing with numerous instructors, most have failed to establish a definative foundational pattern of triangulation movements as described and shown by the late Professor Presas in his books and videos. Without that foundation in place, most instructors can not and will not be able to establish the extra stepping or evasion patterns which will supplement the trianulation patterns. Talking about stepping is not enough, one actually must do it and teach it. It really does not matter if one uses 5, 7, 9, 10, 12 or 16 angles of attack, they all are neutralized by a failure to move well. Blocking skills are very important, however they are merely complimentry to movement and can never replace mobility skills.

My escrima/arnis program contains six (6) basic methods of footwork and bodyshifting. My instructional methodology is based on the assumption that arnis a bladed art. Blocks alone are not sufficent to counter and control a blade attack. Mobility is paramount and adds power to your blocks and counters. From my perspective, the primary striking tool in arnis, depending on the region and system, is the bolo, machete, barong or kris. I use the Negrito Bolo as a supplement to all of my stick instruction. The Negrito Bolo is the hidden or dominate shadow instrument and the stick is the primary training substitute item used for instruction, particularly for beginners. The Negrito Bolo was chosen because it is primary tool of the indiginous people of the Island of Negros. That is the island of Professor's birth and it is where he first began studying the art of Arnis under the tutilege of his grandfather, Leon Presas. In addition, Professor used the Negrito Bolo in his video, showing Stick Anyo Apat. I isolated and copied the blade from that video and have used wooden replicas of it since 1987 in my instructional format at Erie Community College.

If other instructors choose to use a different blade type or only use the baston, I have no arguement with them. Each person has to teach from his or her own confort level. And since Professor stressed the stick in his instructional format in the USA, there are those who would not want to use a blade orientation. One the other hand the blade orientation does force one to use good, practical and effective footwork.

Respectfully,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 18, 2005)

This is an simple yet hard task.

The simple part is people working together for a common goal.

The hard part is people checking thier egos at the door.

 :asian:


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## Tgace (Oct 18, 2005)

Whats the goal?


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## Guro Harold (Oct 18, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Whats the goal?


IMHO:
Simply, to continue to spread the Professor's knowledge and love of the art of Modern Arnis.


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 18, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> IMHO:
> Simply, to continue to spread the Professor's knowledge and love of the art of Modern Arnis.


Sounds fine by me.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador (Oct 18, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> IMHO:
> Simply, to continue to spread the Professor's knowledge and love of the art of Modern Arnis.


 This gets my vote.


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## Tgace (Oct 19, 2005)

Unfortunately we all know that its really not that simple to implement dont we? Nothing ever is when humans are involved with each other.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Unfortunately we all know that its really not that simple to implement dont we? Nothing ever is when humans are involved with each other.


That's the beauty of it. It can be as simple or as complex as a person chooses.

If you want to get involved in politics and concern yourself with what others are doing it can be complicated.

But if you are just talking about the Professor, his art and swinging sticks, its easy!


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## Tgace (Oct 19, 2005)

But just look at the **** storm that can erupt around the issue of who is REALLY teaching The Professors Art and who isnt..for starters.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 19, 2005)

There is always room for a difference of opinion.

Its really not my business if someone in another group teaches 12 stikes, 24, or one really big strike!!!

It concerns me that we talk more about things than people sharing about what they have learned from GM Presas, what new information or insight that they bring to tons of material in Modern Arnis, what has worked for them, what has been a challenge, and what are some of the viable self-defense aspects of the art.

We can discuss skill-sets, the flow, Modern Arnis carenza, hidden techniques, the progression of skill from white belt to black.

There's too much positive material to cover than to be burdened with the politics.


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Oct 19, 2005)

I guess the real question is do you want to be part or the problem or the solution? Do you post on MT to help people and share information or to cause problems and screw with people?

 :asian:


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## arnisador (Oct 19, 2005)

Palusut said:
			
		

> There's too much positive material to cover than to be burdened with the politics.


Agreed. We can continue to add to the base we have as well.


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## Tgace (Oct 19, 2005)

T Hartman said:
			
		

> I guess the real question is do you want to be part or the problem or the solution? Do you post on MT to help people and share information or to cause problems and screw with people?
> 
> :asian:



Or are you concerned about an issue that everybody else chooses to ignore because of personal investment? 

At least some people can confine it to TGD....


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## Guro Harold (Oct 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I asked the question on DocB's thread and agree with Dan A that it probably needs its own thread. As a spin off of the "what have you done to contribute..." thread,I want to ask the question.....
> 
> To the people who are leading the art, what do you think Modern Arnis "needs". Does it need more exposure, does it need standardization, does it need centralized control (hows that for a hot topic?). If you folks are going to "contribute", what do you think the direction should be?


Let's stay on the original topic.


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## Tgace (Oct 19, 2005)

Agreed.

So whats the first step in overcoming the baggage/politics that are in existence right now? Is the seemingly increasing number of associations (and the competition that seems to come with them) an aid or a detriment to co-operation?

Is there any system out there that is free of this type of stuff that can be looked to as a model?


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## RickRed (Oct 19, 2005)

T Hartman said:
			
		

> I guess the real question is do you want to be part or the problem or the solution? Do you post on MT to help people and share information or to cause problems and screw with people?
> 
> :asian:


After calling someone's work over this internet stuff do you really have any room to talk about causing problems or screwing with people?


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## Dan Anderson (Oct 19, 2005)

T Hartman said:
			
		

> This is an simple yet hard task.
> 
> The simple part is people working together for a common goal.
> 
> ...


Far easier said than done, unfortunately.  I found this out the hard way when I tried to organize the Senior Student of Remy Presas Summer Camp (for lack of a better name) and that blew apart due to the above.  Probably a common goal which does not necesarily require interaction amongst all would be the best we could hope for in present time.  This way each group could at least work on the more positive goal of dissemination of the art in their own manner.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold (Oct 19, 2005)

*Mod Warning:*

Please keep discussions on topic

*Palusut
MT Senior Moderator*


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## Guro Harold (Oct 19, 2005)

*Mod Warning:*

Please again read carefully the Admin warning below:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15344

Best regards,

Palusut
*MT Senior Moderator*


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## Bester (Oct 19, 2005)

RickRed said:
			
		

> After calling someone's work over this internet stuff do you really have any room to talk about causing problems or screwing with people?


 Hey Rick, nice to know you have all the "poop" in that case. Why don't you either stick to the topic or go hang with the other jock sniffers in the litterbox board? Otherwise, you're just part of the problem thats long been stinking up this section.


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## Tgace (Oct 19, 2005)

As long as there are people involved there will be "politics". Trying to work around or through them is key IMO. Any ideas? Or like Dan said is it just a matter of "live and let live"?


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Agreed.



On Topic is good. 



			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> So whats the first step in overcoming the baggage/politics that are in existence right now?



I talk to people and go see them and let them decide for themsleves and in person what type of person I am. I can only try to change myself, to try to force someone else to change is not the answer. 

When people ask me to call them to explain my errors, I call them, and let them say their peace. I then ask if they are willing to listen to what I had written or said. If not then I say thank you and move on, if they do then I present the data. In once case the senior who asked me to call him found out I was not the one who had misspoke, but other had. It was a missunderstanding. This misunderstanding could have been an issue, but I chose to find out versus just get mad or get even. Once again I do what I can. I make mistakes as a human being, and I try to learn from them as well.



			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> Is the seemingly increasing number of associations (and the competition that seems to come with them) an aid or a detriment to co-operation?



Co-operation can work with the number of organizations out there. I think it might be hard to get all of the leaders of orgs or top students all in one place. Maybe with time. Yet, with each offer, hopefully one more is willing to consider and one more accepts and people move forward.

As to the number of orgs and competition, I do not think that people as stealing income or students from others. Since the passing of the GM Remy Presas there have been more seminars and camps then before. My thought is that people can train where they want, and possible multiple groups. The mulitple groups make have to be after they have enough time to understand that the different groups may have concentrated slightly different to get to the same goal, just by walking a different path. 




			
				Tgace said:
			
		

> Is there any system out there that is free of this type of stuff that can be looked to as a model?



I am not familiar with all systems. but those I am know of, all have some form of politics as Human beings are involved. Yet one can hope though.


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## Bester (Oct 19, 2005)

What Modern Arnis needs, at least online, is less of this personal mudslinging, especially from uninformed, third parties, and more focus on history, techniques and concepts. Reading through here I see alot of game playing, back stabbing, self promotion and ball biting, but unless I really dig, it's hard to find any serious "meat" on what the art is about. 

Can any one answer some simple questions?
- How was the art developed?
- Who were the influences at the various times during its evolution?
- What are the basic concepts? Advanced concepts?
- What sets it apart from the gazillion other arts out there?

Or will it just be more "buy my book" "buy my tape" "you suck" "your mother" "waah" "he's a poopy head"?

Hey, looking around, here's 3 questions that were asked...how come none of you "masters" "doctors" "professors" and "datus" seem to be interested in answering? Too busy taking aim at each other?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27473
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27474
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27472

This one was good, until it degenerated into a "whos right" debate:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27023

Heres a good one, but it died young:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23482

Heres a good idea, if a bit lacking in info and heavy on ads:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23375

Reading back through the last years posts, Modern Arnis is an art form that focuses on spaming message boards with flyers and ads, while pointing fingers and declaring others unworthy. I thought it was supposed to have something to do with martial arts.

What does Modern Arnis need?

An Enema.


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## RickRed (Oct 19, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Hey Rick, nice to know you have all the "poop" in that case. Why don't you either stick to the topic or go hang with the other jock sniffers in the litterbox board? Otherwise, you're just part of the problem thats long been stinking up this section.


Hey "al" why does Tim get a pass on the "stay on the topic" lecture when the comment is a thinly veiled shot?  I'll stay on topic from now on because the mods asked.  That would be the decent thing to do.  Where do you get off writing like you own the place?


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## Bester (Oct 19, 2005)

DickRed said:
			
		

> Hey "al" why does Tim get a pass on the "stay on the topic" lecture when the comment is a thinly veiled shot?


Really? Against who? Looks like a fair question to me. Unless you know something that I don't?
Lets see it again:


> Originally Posted by T Hartman
> I guess the real question is do you want to be part or the problem or the solution? Do you post on MT to help people and share information or to cause problems and screw with people?


Well, I'll ask you the same thing: Gonna contribute or just add **** to the steamy pile?



			
				DickRed said:
			
		

> Where do you get off writing like you own the place?


Maybe because I'd like to read something of merit on this art, rather than the seemingly non-stop BS I find.


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## RickRed (Oct 19, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I asked the question on DocB's thread and agree with Dan A that it probably needs its own thread. As a spin off of the "what have you done to contribute..." thread,I want to ask the question.....
> 
> To the people who are leading the art, what do you think Modern Arnis "needs". Does it need more exposure, does it need standardization, does it need centralized control (hows that for a hot topic?). If you folks are going to "contribute", what do you think the direction should be?


From what I have seen, it seems that Modern Arnis needs a dose of honor and confidence.  There is too much value put on Training with Remy Presas.  There isn't enough put on how much you understand the art.  Training with Remy seems to be like winning a popularity contest.  I am sure there are very good martial artists that never saw a grand master their whole life.

Too often it looks like people are pointing fingers or trying to cut other people off, or shut them up instead of working on their own skill and personal growth.  If you know that you are doing the right thing, what other people are doing shouldn't be anything to fear.  Confident people don't have to run behind other peoples back to bad mouth them.  THey don't need to beg onto a floor or call other people's programs jokes.  There looks to be quite a bit of that going on.


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## RickRed (Oct 19, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> Really? Against who? Looks like a fair question to me. Unless you know something that I don't?
> Lets see it again:
> 
> Well, I'll ask you the same thing: Gonna contribute or just add **** to the steamy pile?
> ...


So much for leading by example.  There's lots of merit in changing a user's account name like you did.  Very mature and very "NOT ADDING TO THE STEAMY PILE"  I think there is some rule about such harassment and immaturity.  But hey keep showing how important quality is to you.

"non-stop" BS....I haven't seen you comment on anything before now, so it doesn' seem to be as non stop as you want to see...

I'll stop posting things that irritate you so much that you have to resort to such juvanile garbag.  SOmeone has to be the grown up.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 19, 2005)

*Mod Note:*

Thread closed per staff review.

Palusut
*MT Senior Moderator*


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