# Hard and Soft



## DaveB (Jul 14, 2015)

What do you understand by the terms hard and soft, in relation to martial arts technique? 

How do these concepts manifest in your training and your sparring?

Do you apply these elements in self defense and how?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 14, 2015)

- Hard is used for offense. For example, your fist meets your opponent's face.
- Soft is used for defense. For example, you use "arm drag" to move your opponent's arm to wherever that you want it to be.


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## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2015)

Excellent article from Michael Rosenbaum. Iain Abernethy.com Hard Middle and Soft Styles of Karate


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## ChrisN (Jul 14, 2015)

From my experience in my opinion, and I often think the benefit of having an opinion is it can change.

It depends on what you mean by training and sparing? In my mind they often fall into the same category. Although there is a difference between light sparing and heavy sparing depending on both my opponent and the body protection they have it dictates what I will do.

For part of my misspent youth I studded Ninjutsu. In very much layman’s terms and dragged up from the deepest darkest recesses of my memory, there is four (Probably a lot more) distinct unarmed styles. Roughly equivalent to earth air water and fire. Just looking at water and forgetting the animations what does water do?

It flows, takes on the shape of whatever it’s in. it adapts. Seems like a soft style. But waves they roll back and then come crashing in and are pretty much unstoppable. Does that make it soft or hard?

Applying the principle to theGrosse Messer as it’s a sword than many of the techniques have similarities to other weapons you may be more familiar with. I could say do a lateral parry keeping the point of the weapon facing the opponent ready to drive it forward into their neck. Very much a hard response, yes? But if you have good control over your weapon it can be performed safely at speed in training without any neck protection. In sparing I would only respond like that if they had a gorget.

On the other hand a literal parry shifting the strong of my blade to the week of theirs I can then easily control the blade drive it down possibly step on it, cut to the hands, maybe follow with a throw. Realistically all of these things as individual moves acquaint to what most people would call soft techniques. Put them together however…..

As for applying things to self-defence. Good awareness of what’s happing around you and the ability to run away always helps.  If you have no other choice but fight. When you do whatever is necessary to survive including bleed. I’ve been beaten down in the street by one person I could have easily taken. If I had I would have had his six mates on me. So I concentrated on minimising the damage I took.

Just made more questions with that reply havent I.


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 14, 2015)

There are many aspects to hard and soft.  It can be taken simply as a polarity thing, as in yang/yin, straight/circular, and so on.  For me hard for offence and soft for Defence is a little too simplistic - for example, if you are attacking a soft target area then a soft strike might be as effective as a hard strike, and could also avoid over-committing yourself.....


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## Limasogobudo (Jul 14, 2015)

In my thought and way the Hard or GO is your Kyusho waza and the soft is the Tuite waza


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 14, 2015)

If I am putting power directly into the target (doesn't matter if it's a strike or a block, and our students often hear me say that strikes and blocks are the same thing), then it's hard. 
If I am working at an angle, then it's soft.
It's less about the power in the movement and more about the angles at which it is being applied.
As an example: 
A punch is thrown. If I just want to avoid being hit and maybe create an opening for a counter strike, I can strike the arm, at a 90 degree angle, knocking it to the outside.
Same punch. If I want to move in and apply any number of grabs as a counter, I strike the arm at a much lower angle, still deflecting it to the outside, but moving my blocking hand in towards whatever grab I'm planning to do.


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## mograph (Jul 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Excellent article from Michael Rosenbaum. Iain Abernethy.com Hard Middle and Soft Styles of Karate


Along those lines, it's said that "hard" and "soft" are analogous to "external" and "internal." It's also said that there are basically two paths up the mountain of martial mastery: _internal to external_ and _external to internal_. The former could apply to taijiquan, while the latter could apply to karate or Shaolin. Nevertheless, both paths meet at the top of the mountain. 

(Well, that's the metaphor.)


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## marques (Jul 14, 2015)

*Hard*
Force, striking, offense, rigide, muscle, emotion, speed, initiative, direct, line...

*Soft*
Sensitivity, grappling, defense, flexible, intelligence, peace, distance control, passive, indirect, circle(s)...


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## marques (Jul 14, 2015)

mograph said:


> It's also said that there are basically two paths up the mountain of martial mastery: _internal to external_ and _external to internal_. Nevertheless, both paths meet at the top of the mountain.


Well, that is the politically correct.
But I'm seeing the "external way" going fast at the beginning, then stabilizing and then dropping with age (and inevitable injuries).
And I'm seeing the "internal way" going 'nowhere' at the beginning (or first decade...) and one day it becomes magic, even with age (and less injuries in the way).


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 14, 2015)

marques said:


> *Hard*
> Force, striking, offense, rigide, muscle, emotion, speed, initiative...
> 
> *Soft*
> Sensitivity, grappling, defense, flexible, intelligence, peace, distance control, passive...



Have to disagree with a lot of this. So called "hard" arts can (and do) include "soft" techniques, and require flexibility, intelligence, distance control, can be passive (counter striking) etc etc etc.
And there are inflexible morons studying "soft" arts.


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## marques (Jul 14, 2015)

@Dirty Dog Of course.
Nothing is absolute, but relative to the opposite side. That was the way I learnt Yin/Yang in chinese medicine. It just give a feeling in relation to the opposite.
_Hard_ includes _soft_, but it is more _hard _than_ soft_. Defense is more soft than offense, so we call it 'defense', but it includes offense at some level... Clear enough? 

And inflexible morons will understand better _hard_ arts, but will be more balanced as person doing _soft_ arts, at least because they're working the weak side.


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 14, 2015)

My own take, fwiw, is that Defence can also be Offence (eg block as strike) so the hard-soft distinction may or may not be correct, depending on the context - perhaps a little like uncertainty in particle physics....so the duality might be a useful principle, but is not necessarily gospel ☺


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 14, 2015)

In okinawan naha-te systems there is a hardness and a softness in your body at the same time. Certain muscles will have dynamic tension in them while other muscles will remain soft and pliable.  Somtimes there are both attributes in the same area of the body, fluctuating between the two conditions.


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## Limasogobudo (Jul 14, 2015)

I agree with you hoshin 1600. I think their are many ways of using soft and hard. Many types because of style and idea. I think the real mean of those is when to use them and why are you using them? But yes SANCHIN!


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## mograph (Jul 14, 2015)

marques said:


> Well, that is the politically correct.
> But I'm seeing the "external way" going fast at the beginning, then stabilizing and then dropping with age (and inevitable injuries).
> And I'm seeing the "internal way" going 'nowhere' at the beginning (or first decade...) and one day it becomes magic, even with age (and less injuries in the way).


But of course. "External" is easier to grasp, but when the going gets tough in the harder-to-grasp internal process, some practitioners drop off ... or claim that they know all there is to know, and open a studio. And, yep, "the internal" requires lots of hard and seemingly pointless (and yes, boring) work until a breakthrough comes. Or, if not, those internal folk who get nowhere after a few years and drop out, go and open a tai-cheese studio.

Both only reach the top if they persevere.

I just realized another analogy, this one from cognitive science: _insight_ problems vs. _non-insight_ problems. Insight problems (such as the join-the-nine-dots problem) require perspective-changing, incubation and reframing, much like internal martial arts with its metaphors and processes that are difficult to explain and grasp using our day-to-day life experiences. Conversely, non-insight problems (well-defined, where we know the initial state, the goal state, and how to get from one to the other, even if arduous or time-consuming) can be solved by examination without having to reframe or incubate -- we _know_ what to do, or we can grasp the process using our existing life experiences.

Both are valid, but both are necessary to gain a complete understanding of problem-solving, and of martial arts.

In my opinion.


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## Oldbear343 (Jul 15, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> In okinawan naha-te systems there is a hardness and a softness in your body at the same time. Certain muscles will have dynamic tension in them while other muscles will remain soft and pliable.  Somtimes there are both attributes in the same area of the body, fluctuating between the two conditions.


Thanks ☺


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## DaveB (Jul 15, 2015)

The diversity of responseses is interesting.

I think of hard and soft technique as how we direct our own force: soft technique is continuous while hard technique is staccato in nature.

My kungfu teacher would differentiate between a punch and a thrust, where one would deposit it's energy into the target and the other would send it's energy beyond the end of the fist to infinity.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 15, 2015)

Hard verses soft strike is about area coverage and depth. Think Sledge hammer as compared to an arrow....Hard compared to soft.


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## oftheherd1 (Jul 16, 2015)

Well, this has been an interesting thread for me to read so far.  I understand one must always approach anything on Wikipedia with caution, but I always understood Hard and Soft more as described here:

Hard and soft martial arts - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia



> Hard and soft (martial arts)
> ...
> 
> Regardless of origins and styles "hard and soft" can be seen as simply "opposing or yielding"; each has its application and must be used in its own way, and each makes use of specific principles of timing and biomechanics.
> ...



But apparently it is defined in many different ways by different arts.  And one could argue that the wiki definition is too broad (soft ?) ;-



0.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2015)

Old CMA saying.

External (hard) goes to Internal (soft)  and Internal goes to External. Basically it means that if done right they end up in the same place with time.


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## DaveB (Jul 16, 2015)

The only question I have with the distinction of yielding and opposing is that soft styles strike too. So how do you yield as you send your fist into the opponent's gut?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 16, 2015)

It is not yielding it is all about relaxation and where the power comes from


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## K-man (Jul 16, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> In okinawan naha-te systems there is a hardness and a softness in your body at the same time. Certain muscles will have dynamic tension in them while other muscles will remain soft and pliable.  Somtimes there are both attributes in the same area of the body, fluctuating between the two conditions.


I had never felt soft until I started Aikido. When I changed my karate to the Okinawan style I found that the softness was intrinsic to the Goju training. However, I disagree that hard and soft is present at the same time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 16, 2015)

When your opponent throws a low roundhouse kick at your lower leg, you can apply

- "hard metal strategy" by turning your shin bone to meet his shin bone. It's like "knife cut into wood".
- "soft water strategy" by bending your leg at your knee joint and let his leg to pass under it. It's like "water jump up from disturbing".

Both can be used to set up counter attacks.


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## DaveB (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> The diversity of responseses is interesting.
> 
> I think of hard and soft technique as how we direct our own force: soft technique is continuous while hard technique is staccato in nature.
> 
> My kungfu teacher would differentiate between a punch and a thrust, where one would deposit it's energy into the target and the other would send it's energy beyond the end of the fist to infinity.



To complete my answer, continuous force (soft technique) manifested mostly in my karate training through aiki applications, I.e applying minimal force in circular patterns to deflect and redirect the opponent. In my kungfu it came in different forms of striking as mentioned, and in yielding defensive techniques from contact (chi sau).

Taekwondo though presented the most interesting application of soft technique. Though I never mastered it, the art presented the potential for a unique internal martial art. Weird I know. 

We used a method of fighting whereby we would switch feet and spin to deceive the opponent. Defense was almost entirely evasion and the beauty of it was that every movement was a kick (or a punch) if I wanted it to be, if the opponent was in range.

I fought a senior at my kungfu school with it once. A very arrogant, "kungfu beats everything" guy. He thought he could just spike the kicks with his punches. He found out that he has to commit to a punch in a way I don't have to with a kick so every time he tried I just snapped my kick to a different location. Good times. 

I can't kick for toffee now. :-(

Anyway, I found out some years later that inbetween all that chi excrement, the defining point of the internal martial arts is the conservation of momentum through rebounding (tai chi), spinning (bagua) and drop stepping (xing yi). Combine the spinning taekwondo with some aiki hand work from Hapkido and your on your way to the first Korean IMA.

Anyway,  to finish, in self defense I don't use soft techniques except deflections through contact sensitivity. I feel hard technique is less committed and therefore safer. And yes this is entirely based on my own lack of skill to apply the concepts reliably.


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## Buka (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> What do you understand by the terms hard and soft, in relation to martial arts technique?
> 
> How do these concepts manifest in your training and your sparring?
> 
> Do you apply these elements in self defense and how?



Those are some damn good questions, Dave.


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## Zero (Jul 17, 2015)

hoshin1600 said:


> In okinawan naha-te systems there is a hardness and a softness in your body at the same time. Certain muscles will have dynamic tension in them while other muscles will remain soft and pliable.  Somtimes there are both attributes in the same area of the body, fluctuating between the two conditions.


This is nicely put.


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## Zero (Jul 17, 2015)

DaveB said:


> What do you understand by the terms hard and soft, in relation to martial arts technique?
> 
> How do these concepts manifest in your training and your sparring?
> 
> Do you apply these elements in self defense and how?



Good points and it can be on various levels.

In our Okinawan goju ryu on a simple and external level we see the soft as the grappling and take-downs we use while fighting (the tuite waza, as Limasogobudo put it) and the hard as the strikes to the body.  The soft and hard applications are certainly _not _put into and limited to attacking or defensive categories respectively.

But as also put, there are ways of performing strikes, so that they themselves can be "hard" or "soft" or deflective in nature.  Also nothing feels "soft" when you get a nasty joint lock put on your wrist...

Then there are the internal and external components of the art, which are also referred to as the hard and soft applications by some. This is not my field, the internal that is, so I'll shy away from that...

We certainly apply both the soft and hard to a self defence setting, whatever application works best or is most readily available in that given scenario...and kind of along the lines as Hoshin said, both can be done at the same time, a wrist trap or lock against your torso is often done at the same time as a strike to the face.


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## marques (Jul 22, 2015)

I _hardly_ accept one 'hard' martial art as a marital art. To me, it is more a sort of fitness.
I smoothly accept as martial arts all the trickeries, invisible, subtle and fast (because short) moves of someone that easily feel the opponent weaknesses and _touch_ there intelligently.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2015)

Zero said:


> we see the soft as the grappling and take-downs we use while fighting (the tuite waza, as Limasogobudo put it) and the hard as the strikes to the body.


Agree! When you

- "strike", you want to create a head on collision (hard).
- "throw", you want to create a rear end collision (soft).


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## Seizan (Jul 22, 2015)

In UechiRyu, practitioners often hear the term "Pangainun" as either a Chinese name for the system, or a manner of fighting, and are given a meaning of "half-hard, half-soft".

From this spring many personal interpretations of just what is "hard" and what is "soft" in the technique.

The system originates from the Fuzhou vicinity of Fukien.  I asked a correspondent there what the term meant (and included the kanji for him to review).  He said:

"Well, that which is half-hard is tough.  That which is half-soft is flexible.  This term means 'tough and flexible'.  Like kid leather gloves.  Not external or internal, 50/50 hard-style/soft-style, or so on.  It's a training challenge -- a physical attribute to be sought by the practitioner in learning the style.  A tough, well-conditioned body that has flexibility to effectively deliver the techniques."

This is not "mainstream" UechiRyu thinking, though it certainly applies to the practice and performance style of our group.

Best,

Seizan


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2015)

Seizan said:


> In UechiRyu, practitioners often hear the term "Pangainun" as either a Chinese name for the system, or a manner of fighting, and are given a meaning of "half-hard, half-soft".
> 
> From this spring many personal interpretations of just what is "hard" and what is "soft" in the technique.
> 
> ...



Had to look Pangainun up, Chinese it is 半硬软 in pinyin it is bàn yìng ruǎn. English translation is basically "Semi-hard and soft"


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## DaveB (Jul 23, 2015)

Seizan said:


> In UechiRyu, practitioners often hear the term "Pangainun" as either a Chinese name for the system, or a manner of fighting, and are given a meaning of "half-hard, half-soft".
> 
> From this spring many personal interpretations of just what is "hard" and what is "soft" in the technique.
> 
> ...



This fits with the Fujianese kungfu I did: Sanchin (saan zhan or something) breathing was in no small part for Iron body training and their was a fair amount of body conditioning, but the bulk of the fighting style was employing soft technique.


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