# Corrupted Poomsae



## Archtkd (Mar 16, 2012)

This subject has been tackled before in different ways, but I still keep wondering: Why do many masters and grandmasters, who teach Kukkiwon style taekwondo, continue to teach corrupted versions Kukkiwon style poomsae, especially in this day and age when technology enables us to obtain the correct forms, as they have been taught at the Kukkiwon since the early 70s? 

With no disrepect to this master or his students, here are examples of what I am talking about. The gentleman did his 7th Dan test in 2007 and this are the Geup and Yudanja rank forms he performed in front of an audience. I'm assuming this was an in-house testing because it seems to have been done here in the U.S,, where typically a testing of that rank would be done at the Kukkiwon.  He does the poomsae very well from a technical and artistic perspective, but all the forms do not confirm to Kukkiwon standards. I can't tell whether this is intentional or the master simply does not know, despite the fact that he has affiliations with the WTF, according to his dojang's we site. I don't know the master, but I am wondering whether  he has an ITF or Karate background. 

1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MqWV0y_1Qus&feature=related
2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Geb9Sr0scM&feature=related


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 16, 2012)

It will be interesting to see the responses from KKW people.   

Have seen this for many years from those purporting to do the Chang Hon forms.   Various reasons apply.   They have a lineage that did not have detailed instruction so errrors were passed along and exacerbated thru the generations. 

They have a lineage that had certain different standards and when there was a changeover to the new standard (Now decades old) the old habits remained and carried on thru the progeny. 

 They have a lineage were definite changes were made and some claim to know these changes yet often they are not written down so they get messed up thru the generations.  

They learnd something thru a book or video that had an error and was later corrected, or never corrected but they never got updated. 

Some are just clueless that what they are doing is far removed from the accepted standard, not knowing there is an accepted standard or what it is.


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## granfire (Mar 16, 2012)

A) Forms were never static, probably never meant to be that way
B) Forms are changed on purpose to underline a change in direction.

Part may very well be to give the KKW the one finger salute with their death grip on the art.
Or, as I have experienced it, to secure revenue and royalties. 

Considering the art not being uniform at all to begin with, I don't think 'corrupted' is quiet the correct term.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 16, 2012)

At present, having links to the Kukkiwon / WTF doesn't really mean anything unless that particular instructor chooses to make it mean something (speaking from a UK perspective).  

In the UK, it just means you've registered with the Kukkiwon and paid the fee.  It's up to each instructor to then register with the National Governing Body the BTCB, and make sure they get themselves to the requisite seminars, courses and such to bring themselves up to date.  It is unfortunate that many instructors choose not to do this, but still pay the fee in order to be able to advertise Kukkiwon affiliation.

It is a sad fact that I always see new (often senior) faces at the seminar the day before black belt gradings, and what they are doing is often way out of whack with the standard.  It is hoped that forcing seminar attendance as a grading requirement will eventually drive the right behaviour.

There are also other Kukkiwon instructors that operate independently from the NGB, grading people and giving out Kukkiwon certificates.  There are also non-Kukkiwon instructors who use the same syllabus & poomsae, with no supporting infrastructure to support uniformity.  I'm not sure if there's any real control to stop this from happening.

In short, there's nothing to force you to adhere to the standard, except your own motivation.  The BTCB alone has a membership of thousands, and yet I see the same 200 faces at each and every seminar.  Those of us who keep ourselves up to date are definitely in the minority, which is a great shame, as I find the seminars very rewarding.


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## MSUTKD (Mar 16, 2012)

Most US KKW instructors do not follow the standards either.  I have watched these videos before and although he is not following the standard he actually has skill and is consistent.  I am bothered much more by people who cannot even execute the techniques with tempo, power and flexibility.

I think with forms, unless you are competing at a high level, a little variance might be okay as long as the form looks good and the techniques are strong.


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## dancingalone (Mar 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> A) Forms were never static, probably never meant to be that way.



A great point generally especially when applied to older sets of forms where the authorship and intent of movements have become obscured over time.  

I wonder about the KKW poomsae however.  If one adopts the top-down hierarchy seemingly implicit with the usage of KKW certification, it seems one should follow the standard as published by their leadership.  Many of authors of these forms are still alive and active after all.


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## Manny (Mar 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> A) Forms were never static, probably never meant to be that way
> B) Forms are changed on purpose to underline a change in direction.
> 
> Part may very well be to give the KKW the one finger salute with their death grip on the art.
> ...



If I were a poomsae competitor of a high level I will adhere strictly to the kukiwon set of rules to do the kkw poomsae, I mean I will have to do the poomsae exactly as kukiwon wants, in some cases a semirobotic movements.

However I am not a high level competitor so even I try to adhere to the kukiwon poomsae, everytime I do poomsae I do them with my own flavor and feeling, maybe my stances or blocks or kicks are not supernice robotic moves but alot of me is isndie of every poomsae I do and for me this is waht it counts.

Don't take me wrong a bad performance doing poomsae it's a bad performance here and China but... just because one has not the level of profiency and acuracy in the moves inside the poomsae like the international competitors have we don't need to be so acurated in our poomsae.

I saw the the poomsae performed by the master in the links, the taeguks seemed to me nice and interesting, the koryo and up seems to me not precicesly as the kukiwon text book but the master did them very well to me, I mean they are not super fantastic but are not trash either.

Manny

Considering the art not being uniform at all to begin with, I don't think 'corrupted' is quiet the correct term.[/QUOTE]


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Why do many masters and grandmasters, who teach Kukkiwon style taekwondo, continue to teach corrupted versions Kukkiwon style poomsae, especially in this day and age when technology enables us to obtain the correct forms, as they have been taught at the Kukkiwon since the early 70s?



I think because there is nothing, at least within the US, that prevents them from doing so. In Korea for example, the Kwan Jang still live there and they can and have sent out instructions to kwan members that this is the direction we are going to. And the members listen. There are also additional controls. For example, if you wish to open a dojang in Korea, you must take and pass the Kukkiwon Instructor Course and become licensed. Further, pretty much all dojang send students to tournaments, including poomsae tournaments, local and also things like the Hanmadang. If you wish to win, then there is incentive to comply with the stated standards. Everyone is on board in Korea.

Problem is in the US, we don't have the same sort of culture. Also, instructors here came up with their own ways of doing things, which they are proud of, and they don't wish to change. They consider themselves to be the pioneers, not their kwan jang in Korea. 

In this particular case, I think the testee does it that way because his instructor wants him to do it that way. I watched the videos and I think it would be relatively easy for him to make the switch to kukkiwon standard. I think the way he does his poomsae is actually harder than the standard version, which may or may not be what he or his instructor is looking for. 

The Kukkiwon solution is that for 8th and 9th Dan candidates, you must test in Korea at the Kukkiwon. People know this and either adopt the standard, or choose not to and don't get promoted, at least not by the Kukkiwon.


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Most US KKW instructors do not follow the standards either.



I think that is slowly changing though, through youtube, the poomsae only tournament system of the WTF, the Kukkiwon Instructor Courses, and forums such as these, which talk ***positively*** about the benefits and advantages of being to the standard. 



MSUTKD said:


> I have watched these videos before and although he is not following the standard he actually has skill and is consistent.  I am bothered much more by people who cannot even execute the techniques with tempo, power and flexibility.



I agree. 



MSUTKD said:


> I think with forms, unless you are competing at a high level, a little variance might be okay as long as the form looks good and the techniques are strong.



I also agree. I think positive dialog and continuing efforts at educating our fellow practitioners is the way to go.


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## Archtkd (Mar 16, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Most US KKW instructors do not follow the standards either.  I have watched these videos before and although he is not following the standard he actually has skill and is consistent.  I am bothered much more by people who cannot even execute the techniques with tempo, power and flexibility.
> 
> I think with forms, unless you are competing at a high level, a little variance might be okay as long as the form looks good and the techniques are strong.



No doubt he has the skill. He's very good and polished. The problem is, one of this days there's always the danger that one or many of his students will go around declaring that this i the "original", "traditional" and "correct" way Kukkiwon forms are done, especially because the teacher states he has close relations with the WTF.


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> The problem is, one of this days there's always the danger that one or many of his students will go around declaring that this i the "original", "traditional" and "correct" way Kukkiwon forms are done, especially because the teacher states he has close relations with the WTF.



I can tell you that mastercole and I have been dealing with that online for over 15 years now. People used to come out of the woodwork to attack us regarding short narrow stances and everything else. Our point was this: There is a kukkiwon standard that has been in place since the creation of the palgwae, yudanja, and taeguek poomsae, which include short narrow stances and other very specific movements. If you do not wish to follow that standard, then you are free to ignore those standards in your own practice and also what you teach your students. But please do not announce to the world that your long wide stance and your dynamic tension moves in taebaek is the standard, because it isn't and never was, no matter what your instructor told you.


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## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> This subject has been tackled before in different ways, but I still keep wondering: Why do many masters and grandmasters, who teach Kukkiwon style taekwondo, continue to teach corrupted versions Kukkiwon style poomsae, especially in this day and age when technology enables us to obtain the correct forms, as they have been taught at the Kukkiwon since the early 70s?
> 
> With no disrepect to this master or his students, here are examples of what I am talking about. The gentleman did his 7th Dan test in 2007 and this are the Geup and Yudanja rank forms he performed in front of an audience. I'm assuming this was an in-house testing because it seems to have been done here in the U.S,, where typically a testing of that rank would be done at the Kukkiwon.  He does the poomsae very well from a technical and artistic perspective, but all the forms do not confirm to Kukkiwon standards. I can't tell whether this is intentional or the master simply does not know, despite the fact that he has affiliations with the WTF, according to his dojang's we site. I don't know the master, but I am wondering whether  he has an ITF or Karate background.
> 
> ...



No, it's not the Kukkiwon standard. I don't think he claims it to be though.

I know the Lee brothers and have been to some of their events. Actually, the guy in the video introduced me to "Bone Crusher Smith" the boxer. His older brother Joon Lee came to Cleveland and MC'd the first tournament I ever hosted. They are all very nice, and respected people and do a good job with there students.

Without a doubt they are aware of the Kukkiwon standard. Their background is Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan (even though some brothers became members of different Kwan). Some of what you see is likely from old Moo Duk Kwan. The other thing is that they like to add a bit of personal flare to their Taekwondo. It's what they like and it sets them apart from their local competition, many of whom do try to follow the Kukkiwon standard.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> A) Forms were never static, probably never meant to be that way
> 
> .



I must wholheartedly disagree with the above, and again it's solely from the Chang Hon perspective which has volumes dedicated to the standard. 

From a general standpoint, and as echoed above by Glenn the issue becomes those who think they are doing the standard and really have no clue that they are not. 

The bigger issue is my perspective as to the reasons for standards.  By having a standard you set a goal that the practitioner is tryin to achieve. The goal is also objectively observeable by the instructors and seniors. 

So, if you (generic you) don't adhere to a standard, how does one determine if the performer knows any standard to try and  achieve. How does one determine if they know that standard but are simply not performing to that standard physicaly. 

No matter how far the performance deviates from a standard the performer could simply calim any sort of standard without rhyme or reason. This is not an improvement.  Learn the standard, be able to perfor to the standard, be able to explain the standards and any reasons for them, and then take "poetic license" if you knowingly choose to do so. 

I have had visitors perform corrupted patterns, and would demonstrate and explain what our standard was and reasons for it.  I would then ask them to explain their standard and reasons. Now,we could certianly agree to disagree on what reasons or standards were "better" . Sadly, they often had no reason or explanation.


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## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Most US KKW instructors do not follow the standards either.  I have watched these videos before and although he is not following the standard he actually has skill and is consistent.  I am bothered much more by people who cannot even execute the techniques with tempo, power and flexibility.
> 
> I think with forms, unless you are competing at a high level, a little variance might be okay as long as the form looks good and the techniques are strong.



I agree, many US instructors do not follow the standards, for whatever reason which amazes me because I think that most everyone is finally at least aware that there is a standard. Even though more nad more people are starting to follow that standard, I still see a lot of practitioners who bare their instructors personal style of Taekwondo.

It would be horrifying to me if my students motions looked like mine. I'm a mess of martial arts styles, from boxing, Isshin Ryu, early kwan spin off styles, personal styles of my past teachers, etc. I wish I would have started in a purely Kukkiwon training base, but it was not around in the 1960's. I want my students to be better that me and strive for the international standard. I point to the elite of everything in Taekwondo and tell my students "this is what you strive for."  That is why I bring the world's elite Taekwondoin around my students.

I also think this is what high level competitors are for. To set the example of what can be achieved by correct practice.  This approach has been successful for me. I have students today that are far better at martial arts that I ever was. However unsatisfied I may have been at times trying to achieve my goals as a practitioner, I am very satisfied in the goals I have achieved as an instructor, for this reason.

I believe that was one of my goals when I became an instructor, to have students who far exceed me.  If I had them conform to my personal style, I don't think that would have ever happened.

We should all look at what we are doing as instructors and ask are we doing all we can do to give out students the greatest opportunities. We should also look at our selves to see if we are what is preventing them from achieving all they can.


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## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> A great point generally especially when applied to older sets of forms where the authorship and intent of movements have become obscured over time.
> 
> I wonder about the KKW poomsae however.  If one adopts the top-down hierarchy seemingly implicit with the usage of KKW certification, it seems one should follow the standard as published by their leadership.  Many of authors of these forms are still alive and active after all.



Some of the authors of the Kukkiwon Poomsae are still alive, but they are fading fast. Puunui and myself have personally spoke with several of them, extensively.  They feel that the Poomsae should be done exactly to the standard and doing differently is completely incorrect.

Making purposeful wrong motions in Taegeuk Poomsae messes up the whole mind & body connection in accord with the principles of the I-Ching, the very principle that those standard motions were based on.


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## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I can tell you that mastercole and I have been dealing with that online for over 15 years now. People used to come out of the woodwork to attack us regarding short narrow stances and everything else. Our point was this: There is a kukkiwon standard that has been in place since the creation of the palgwae, yudanja, and taeguek poomsae, which include short narrow stances and other very specific movements. If you do not wish to follow that standard, then you are free to ignore those standards in your own practice and also what you teach your students. But please do not announce to the world that your long wide stance and your dynamic tension moves in taebaek is the standard, because it isn't and never was, no matter what your instructor told you.



We have been dealing with it offline too.  I have had quite a number of encounters where people approach me, some that I do not even know and ask me questions about Taekwondo. Most in a genuine manner, and some in a confrontational manner.  All with an interesting result.  Some walk away mad.  Some end up coming to my school and training together with us. Some end up fly off to Korea and training at places like Kukkiwon, Taekwondo Universities or local Korean Dojang, with my recommendation and introduction. 

What we have been writing online, and tell people in person all these years has changed a few Taekwondoin's lives. I know, they told me so. Yet not one who came to us has ever learned Puunui's or my personal style. That would be a waste of our time and their time. We have just been pointing them in the direction of something much better. Like a good Sommelier


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

mastercole said:


> We have been dealing with it offline too.  I have had quite a number of encounters where people approach me, some that I do not even know and ask me questions about Taekwondo. Most in a genuine manner, and some in a confrontational manner.  All with an interesting result.  Some walk away mad.  Some end up coming to my school and training together with us. Some end up fly off to Korea and training at places like Kukkiwon, Taekwondo Universities or local Korean Dojang, with my recommendation and introduction.



Also some took what we say to heart, and ended up on the US Poomsae National Team. 




mastercole said:


> What we have been writing online, and tell people in person all these years has changed a few Taekwondoin's lives. I know, they told me so. Yet not one who came to us has ever learned Puunui's or my personal style. That would be a waste of our time and their time. We have just been pointing them in the direction of something much better. Like a good Sommelier



I don't have a personal style. I don't think you have one either. I have things I favor, but I do not have a signature on anything. My style is to try to understand exactly the essence and truth of the arts that I study, removing myself from the equation as much as possible. Any aspect of "me" pollutes the purity of what I am trying to go for. This goes for technical, mental, philosophical or historical aspects of my arts. If I am incorrect, out of touch, or obsolete, I do what I can to get the most current information and perspective as possible. This is easy to do, since I have no vested interest in my practice or arts, other than to get it right. I have no attachment to anything, everything is subject to scrutiny and change.


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## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't have a personal style. I don't think you have one either. I have things I favor, but I do not have a signature on anything. My style is to try to understand exactly the essence and truth of the arts that I study, removing myself from the equation as much as possible. Any aspect of "me" pollutes the purity of what I am trying to go for. This goes for technical, mental, philosophical or historical aspects of my arts. If I am incorrect, out of touch, or obsolete, I do what I can to get the most current information and perspective as possible. This is easy to do, since I have no vested interest in my practice or arts, other than to get it right. I have no attachment to anything, everything is subject to scrutiny and change.



GM KIM Dae Shik wrote in his book "Taekwondo is Zen."  What you just wrote is Zen (Seon).


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## Poomsaeguy (Mar 16, 2012)

I do my poomsae the same way as in that video! And the girls love it!


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## mastercole (Mar 16, 2012)

Poomsaeguy said:


> I do my poomsae the same way as in that video! And the girls love it!



I know that your team mate Master Southwick conducts Poomsae seminars, and if you also conduct them I am curious what kind of feed back you guys get from attendees as far as acceptance or rejection of what may appear to be new information. I am going to assume the mass majority accept what they learn from the seminars?


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## Archtkd (Mar 17, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Most US KKW instructors do not follow the standards either.  I have watched these videos before and although he is not following the standard he actually has skill and is consistent.  I am bothered much more by people who cannot even execute the techniques with tempo, power and flexibility.
> 
> I think with forms, unless you are competing at a high level, a little variance might be okay as long as the form looks good and the techniques are strong.



Thanks to you and everybody else for contributing to what I think is a very important topic and helping me understand a complex issue. I think the problem with many issues in taekwondo today have to do with students and how students interpret what the pioneers and teachers taught them. Often there's temptation for many of us to add a twist to what we are being taught, sprinkle in some history and philosophy that we might have misunderstood from a teacher who spoke limited English and then declare our faulty interpretation to be the standard created and approved and recommended by the pioneers. The master doing those forms knows exactly what he is doing and why, but I wonder what some of his students will be telling their own students about those forms in the future.

 There's a very interesting article about the evolution of Ashtanga Yoga in the current issue (April) of Vanity Fair, which might be instructive for some of us taekwondoin.  It's authored by Bethany McLean, a yoga practitioner, who is also a crack business journalist, who broke the Enron scandal. The article details how the late Krishna Pattabhi Jois began promoting Ashtanga Yoga as way to help the ill, weak and impoverished, and how some Westerners with hardly any training in the art turned it into something sought and pushed by the Hollywood and Wall Street elite.


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## dancingalone (Mar 17, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> There's a very interesting article about the evolution of Ashtanga Yoga in the current issue (April) of Vanity Fair, which might be instructive for some of us taekwondoin.  It's authored by Bethany McLean, a yoga practitioner, who is also a crack business journalist, who broke the Enron scandal. The article details how the late Krishna Pattabhi Jois began promoting Ashtanga Yoga as way to help the ill, weak and impoverished, and how some Westerners with hardly any training in the art turned it into something sought and pushed by the Hollywood and Wall Street elite.



Thanks.  As someone who does practice Ashtanga, I enjoyed reading the article.  Here is the link to the article for anyone else interested.  It's freely available to read right now:

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2012/04/krishna-pattanbhi-trophy-wife-ashtanga-yoga


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Often there's temptation for many of us to add a twist to what we are being taught, sprinkle in some history and philosophy that we might have misunderstood from a teacher who spoke limited English and then declare our faulty interpretation to be the standard created and approved and recommended by the pioneers. The master doing those forms knows exactly what he is doing and why, but I wonder what some of his students will be telling their own students about those forms in the future.



One of the things I like about taekwondo is that in some ways, it is schizophrenic. In poomsae, I feel like we have the opportunity to set ourselves to a somewhat more rigid standard of correctness, similar to japanese karate. When we talk about standardization in taekwondo, it is generally standardization of poomsae. But in sparring, anything goes, as long as it works, so you can tailor that aspect of taekwondo to whatever you want. The proof of these changes, innovations and tweaks will be if you can win with them or not. But the freedom is definitely there to go in any direction that you want.


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## Master Dan (Mar 20, 2012)

granfire said:


> A) Forms were never static, probably never meant to be that way
> B) Forms are changed on purpose to underline a change in direction.
> 
> Part may very well be to give the KKW the one finger salute with their death grip on the art.
> ...



I would agree with your last sentence. Many of the Pioneers origins were not with modern TKD per say our GM was 5th Dan in Tang Soo before moving over to TKD Jido Kwan. He remained loyal life long to both KKW and Jidokwan. His opinion and those of his prominent students would be that it matters little the fact that one instructor varies or you make a mistake during performing doing a varience or even a differnt block ect. what matters more is good solid basic technique executed well and beyond that INTENT meaning do you understand what your doing/application. I think Corupted is a very bad term to describe what Pioneers were teaching in INTENT. Not even KKW while trying to do away with Kwan loyalties and variations is very careful to state that the previousl pioneers were not wrong or any negative terms but KKW is trying to bring some standard of conformity with love and respect for all in every session I have been present at. 

Sad to say but KKW like many of us have been far more horified by examples nation wide of practioners that lack any basic skill at all in even just the fundamentals so there is an effort to reestablish a baseline. However for those who have latched on to there is only one way of thinking of performing PoomSe are eliminating a very basic premise to all MA that things are not always what they seem or you must now unlearn what you have learned because you are ready and need to progress. 

If you are really dedicated to KKW you will strive to conform to the best of your abilty to what they want in that time and space but you will also strive to have a duality in both performance and application which goes back to your Kwan or the real street application for your own personal well being and that of your students. Both are needed and those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.

The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money. If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.


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## mastercole (Mar 20, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> I would agree with your last sentence. Many of the Pioneers origins were not with modern TKD per say our GM was 5th Dan in Tang Soo before moving over to TKD Jido Kwan. He remained loyal life long to both KKW and Jidokwan. His opinion and those of his prominent students would be that it matters little the fact that one instructor varies or you make a mistake during performing doing a varience or even a differnt block ect. what matters more is good solid basic technique executed well and beyond that INTENT meaning do you understand what your doing/application.



Every single Taekwondoin can trace their line back to, or through one of the original 5 Kwan. The leaders of those 5 Kwan united and formed modern Taekwondo via founding the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) and it's Central Gymnasium (Kukkiwon).

When I think of the pioneers of Taekwondo, I think of the Kwan leaders who formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), including the KTA's Central Gymnasium, Kukkiwon. Those pioneers were the Taekwondo leaders who formed modern Taekwondo and built it's Central Gym, the Kukkiwon. They are one in the same, not separate.

Those pioneers, the Kwan leaders, wanted standardization of Taekwondo, and specifically Poomsae. That was the purpose of forming the KTA.  To not agree to the standardization the biggest seniors worked their whole life for is to go against one's teachers, teacher, etc.



Master Dan said:


> I think Corupted is a very bad term to describe what Pioneers were teaching in INTENT. Not even KKW while trying to do away with Kwan loyalties and variations is very careful to state that the previousl pioneers were not wrong or any negative terms but KKW is trying to bring some standard of conformity with love and respect for all in every session I have been present at.



Kukkiwon never tried to do away with "kwan loyalties."  The Kwan's still exist and members are still loyal.  The last 3 Kukkiwon Presidents, including the current Kukkiwon Presidents are also Presidents of their Kwan.  All the Kwan endorsed the standards originally set by, well, them - the KTA's Central Gymnasium now known as the Kukkiwon.  So today, following the Kukkiwon is following your Kwanjang.



Master Dan said:


> Sad to say but KKW like many of us have been far more horified by examples nation wide of practioners that lack any basic skill at all in even just the fundamentals so there is an effort to reestablish a baseline.



I don't know what a baseline is and I have never heard that from anyone at the Kukkiwon, or the Kukkiwon Academy. However, I know what Kukkiwon is doing in this regard. Kukkiwon is making a great effort to establish the idea that Kukkiwon Standard Poomsae is performed one way, the way the Kwan leaders who created the Poomsae intended it to be performed. That is what the Kukkiwon instructor's courses are all about.



Master Dan said:


> However for those who have latched on to there is only one way of thinking of performing PoomSe are eliminating a very basic premise to all MA that things are not always what they seem or you must now unlearn what you have learned because you are ready and need to progress.



The Kwan leaders who are the pioneers and by extension the Kukkiwon have latched on to the idea that there is only one way to perform Kukkiwon Standard Poomsae. I follow that idea because my teachers, teacher GM Chong Woo Lee, the most senior living Jidokwan member recommends that I follow that way.



Master Dan said:


> If you are really dedicated to KKW you will strive to conform to the best of your abilty to what they want in that time and space



Everyone has the ability to conform to the Kukkiwon Standard Poomsae. 



Master Dan said:


> but you will also strive to have a duality in both performance and application which goes back to your Kwan



I don't know of any Kwan that would agree with this.



Master Dan said:


> or the real street application for your own personal well being and that of your students.



Application of Poomsae skills is wide open to interpretation. However, the technical accuracy of performance is not and it never was.



Master Dan said:


> Both are needed and those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.



Maybe you should tell this to the Kwan leaders, the pioneers of Taekwondo who by the way all take the stance of historian/academic/librarian. Consider specifically telling Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan since your teacher has Jidokwan roots. I have a close personal relationship with Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan, and he is a true Taekwondo historian. 



Master Dan said:


> The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.



Do you have first hand personal knowledge of such things?  Please, expand.



Master Dan said:


> If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.



Interesting. I never heard of that. Where can I find that on the Kukkiwon website, or what masters and grandmasters told you that?


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## Master Dan (Mar 21, 2012)

Master Cole
For some reason when ever there is a large post or rebutal such as yours when I would like to reply with a qoute the website just sits and cooks and then times out? So I am going to cut and paste here in an attempt to respond to your comments. First lots of miss understandings come from wrong perseption and not knowing where the person is comming from there bias or intent hopefully some of that will be corrected here and you may have answers to some questions. Some times on this forum some threads I would think would get more response and input based on its nature or position this one for example seemed a bit slow and for the most part only two people were seeming to have a discusion agreeing with each other. I am guilty at tmes possilby baiting to draw out more discusion to get deeper in the issue and heated as it may be it tends to draw additional people in that may tend to only read and not participate. My first bias would be based on having been one of the prominent students of a senior 9th Dan very well respected but also an accomplished international fighter as well as fighting in extreme combat conditions, related to Mas Oyama and in my 40 years of meeting and seeing many masters I never met a more powerful man in extreme breaking with no fakery involved we all know what that is tricks of the trade so to speak. That said when he or someone like him shares knowledge especially as being useful related to direct appllication or survival its given its proper respect. You took a great deal of time to respond in detail and I appreciate your input.  I will respond in bold between your comments below.




*MASTERCOLE
Re: Corrupted Poomsae 	

*Every single Taekwondoin can trace their line back to, or through one of the original 5 Kwan. The leaders of those 5 Kwan united and formed modern Taekwondo via founding the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) and it's Central Gymnasium (Kukkiwon).
*We were always taught there were 8 Kwan's and at the Master's lincense test the printed manual presented by the KKW did state only 5 and left out Jidokwan. I publicly asked the GM doing the presentation if this was a mistake or politics he stated that he did not write the manual? Later the president of the KKW flew in and they made a point to pull me asside with his administrators and state that the manual had made a mistake and it was not political. A week later the coup de ta at KKW was complete and both the president and his entire staff were gone and many other changes. *

When I think of the pioneers of Taekwondo, I think of the Kwan leaders who formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), including the KTA's Central Gymnasium, Kukkiwon. Those pioneers were the Taekwondo leaders who formed modern Taekwondo and built it's Central Gym, the Kukkiwon. They are one in the same, not separate. *When I was refering to pioneers I was thinking of the early masters that first came to CONUS to teach. *

Those pioneers, the Kwan leaders, wanted standardization of Taekwondo, and specifically Poomsae. That was the purpose of forming the KTA.  To not agree to the standardization the biggest seniors worked their whole life for is to go against one's teachers, teacher, etc. *I was taugth that the Korean government refused to give funding to pursue the Olympics unless the Korean martial artists could unify. This was not accomplished in a single try and some founders of the Kwans or thier particular style did not want to become part of modern TKD due to fears it would change thier particular style of teaching in a negative way. Some were angry and reluctant to join. 

*Kukkiwon never tried to do away with "kwan loyalties."  The Kwan's still exist and members are still loyal.  The last 3 Kukkiwon Presidents, including the current Kukkiwon Presidents are also Presidents of their Kwan.  All the Kwan endorsed the standards originally set by, well, them - the KTA's Central Gymnasium now known as the Kukkiwon.  So today, following the Kukkiwon is following your Kwanjang. *I am refering to the present an impression I got from both the international Hanmadang referee seminar and masters license test based on printed and both comments by the head KKW PoomSe instructor's repeated comments that the KKW was trying to no use Kwan terminoloy any more that there was only one taekwondo now. But at the same time to not miss judge those by deducting points if the PoomSe varied if the quality of technique was correct? Obviously that has moved a bit in the last 3 years.

*Application of Poomsae skills is wide open to interpretation. However, the technical accuracy of performance is not and it never was.
*This is a good statment and my frustration is that some who are dedicated to only the technical accuracy of performance believe there is nothing else and that some how a person who varies is less capable of defending themselves? That is what I mean by differnt levels in doing forms. I aggree with several world authorities that everything you ever wanted related to self defense is with in all forms regardless of style and modifications have to be made in application based on individuals anatomy or abilities ( if they can't apply or make it work whats the point) 
*Maybe you should tell this to the Kwan leaders, the pioneers of Taekwondo who by the way all take the stance of historian/academic/librarian. Consider specifically telling Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan since your teacher has Jidokwan roots. I have a close personal relationship with Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan, and he is a true Taekwondo historian. 
*Well your looking for a fight in the wrong direction here dropping names I was refering only to CONUS and people far removed from the Kwan Pioneers master's whos students even black belts show up at state level competions cannot do thier forms or even have basic level skills.
Originally Posted by Master Dan

**The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.*
* 
I am surprised you questioned this comment? I am not refering to the Kwan Pioneers but to CONUS the mass marketing or commercialization of TKD in the US it has always been my belief that MA in general was never meant to be a business it its truest form father to son or non profit and the presure on the quality of teaching and testing has been greatly effected in the US by this. 

   I am talking about related to a pay per student fee basis which has presured masters and owners of Dojangs to advance students based on the need for income instead of abilty and maturity. All of this has effected the entire realm of modern TKD. We have to try to rely on computers to take over judging instead of relying on educated and fair and impartial referees. 
Orignally posted by Master Dan
If there is to be a one fingure salute at least as far as the masters and GM's I have talked with it will come from KKW trying to enforce no longer accepting applications for rank advancement will not be accepted unless submitted by a current holder of the KKW Internationa Master Instructor Teaching License which few now hold. That target had moved from February of 2012 to what ever? I think it will continue to be spoken and even posted that way on the website but all applications will be accepted because they are not going to turn down the revenue.
Interesting. 

*I never heard of that. Where can I find that on the Kukkiwon website, or what masters and grandmasters told you that?   	
*It has been discussed and even put in writting my many over the past 3 years. And in addition to this specifics in the masters license manual implied that regional GM's selected by KKW or a national regional association for appoval unless there was not such an association in you area would only be accepted for rank advancement. I took issue with this publically saying that for those of us who have tested under the same GM for decades now have to be approved or tested by someone else? They backed off verbally saying well of course we would still accept your GM's applications but it is still in print? In addition anyone awarding rank certificates seperately out side of KKW will be subject to having thier KKW Dan rank revoked for life. 

By the way my personal best friend and prominent student of our GM was at the 64th aniversery of Jidokwan in Korea one of only two non Koreans there was awarded 9th Dan by the president of Jidokwan out of a concern for carring on the legacy of Jidokwan in the US. If you care to PM me I will send you pictures of that gathering and his being awarded the rank. *


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## mastercole (Mar 21, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> &#8220;Every single Taekwondoin can trace their line back to, or through one of the original 5 Kwan. The leaders of those 5 Kwan united and formed modern Taekwondo via founding the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) and it's Central Gymnasium (Kukkiwon).&#8221;
> 
> *We were always taught there were 8 Kwan's and at the Master's lincense test the printed manual presented by the KKW did state only 5 and left out Jidokwan. I publicly asked the GM doing the presentation if this was a mistake or politics he stated that he did not write the manual? Later the president of the KKW flew in and they made a point to pull me asside with his administrators and state that the manual had made a mistake and it was not political. A week later the coup de ta at KKW was complete and both the president and his entire staff were gone and many other changes.*



There are 5 &#8220;original&#8221; Kwan. Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Chang Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan and Song Moo Kwan.  There are 4 &#8220;annex&#8221; kwan. Oh Do Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, and Jung Do Kwan. There were over 100 spin off kwan, most of those 100 spin off kwan do not exist as functioning kwan today. The Kukkiwon President you speak of was GM LEE Seung Wan, President of Jidokwan since 1988. 
I would have never asked the question you ask, it has no basis in fact, and is insulting. And to me, it is embarrassing that he took you aside to talk to you. It is equally embarrassing to me that a person from Jidokwan roots would tie Jidokwan President Lee&#8217;s resignation as Kukkiwon President to anything other than the facts of the situation.



Master Dan said:


> &#8220;When I think of the pioneers of Taekwondo, I think of the Kwan leaders who formed the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA), including the KTA's Central Gymnasium, Kukkiwon. Those pioneers were the Taekwondo leaders who formed modern Taekwondo and built it's Central Gym, the Kukkiwon. They are one in the same, not separate.&#8221;
> 
> *When I was refering to pioneers I was thinking of the early masters that first came to CONUS to teach.*




I thought you were saying they came here for money?



Master Dan said:


> &#8220;Those pioneers, the Kwan leaders, wanted standardization of Taekwondo, and specifically Poomsae. That was the purpose of forming the KTA. To not agree to the standardization the biggest seniors worked their whole life for is to go against one's teachers, teacher, etc.&#8221;
> 
> *I was taugth that the Korean government refused to give funding to pursue the Olympics unless the Korean martial artists could unify. This was not accomplished in a single try and some founders of the Kwans or thier particular style did not want to become part of modern TKD due to fears it would change thier particular style of teaching in a negative way. Some were angry and reluctant to join.*



Whoever taught that was making up a fairy tale. The kwan unified for standards and quality, a requirement to enter into the Korea Sports Association. The one kwan founder who left the KTA did so because he could not be the boss. His buddy from the Jidokwan, GM YON Kwai Byeong, did the same thing for the same reason. It had nothing to do with changing a style.



Master Dan said:


> &#8220;Kukkiwon never tried to do away with "kwan loyalties." The Kwan's still exist and members are still loyal. The last 3 Kukkiwon Presidents, including the current Kukkiwon Presidents are also Presidents of their Kwan. All the Kwan endorsed the standards originally set by, well, them - the KTA's Central Gymnasium now known as the Kukkiwon. So today, following the Kukkiwon is following your Kwanjang.&#8221;
> 
> *I am refering to the present an impression I got from both the international Hanmadang referee seminar and masters license test based on printed and both comments by the head KKW PoomSe instructor's repeated comments that the KKW was trying to no use Kwan terminoloy any more that there was only one taekwondo now. But at the same time to not miss judge those by deducting points if the PoomSe varied if the quality of technique was correct? Obviously that has moved a bit in the last 3 years.*



When the Kukkiwon says not to use kwan terms, they do so under authority of all the kwan. The kwan does not want us to use old kwan terms.  And please, show me this printed information. If you can scan it and post it here, that would be great, thanks.

I was at that same Hanmadang Referee seminar. What they were telling us was that in the USA many competitors will be attending the Hanmadang FOR THE FIRST TIME. Most will not be up to date on the Kukkiwon standards for Poomsae, and we should be forgiving. That is all the meant, nothing else.



Master Dan said:


> &#8220;Application of Poomsae skills is wide open to interpretation. However, the technical accuracy of performance is not and it never was.&#8221;
> 
> *This is a good statment and my frustration is that some who are dedicated to only the technical accuracy of performance believe there is nothing else and that some how a person who varies is less capable of defending themselves? That is what I mean by differnt levels in doing forms. I aggree with several world authorities that everything you ever wanted related to self defense is with in all forms regardless of style and modifications have to be made in application based on individuals anatomy or abilities ( if they can't apply or make it work whats the point)*



Those are your words, not the Kukkiwon&#8217;s and not mine. I have never read anywhere or ever heard anyone state that if someone was not doing the Kukkiwon Poomsae to exact standard they were less capable of defending themselves. As far as your world authorities comment, please, what are their names?



Master Dan said:


> &#8220;Maybe you should tell this to the Kwan leaders, the pioneers of Taekwondo who by the way all take the stance of historian/academic/librarian. Consider specifically telling Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan since your teacher has Jidokwan roots. I have a close personal relationship with Jidokwan President LEE Seung Wan, and he is a true Taekwondo historian.&#8221;
> 
> *Well your looking for a fight in the wrong direction here dropping names I was refering only to CONUS and people far removed from the Kwan Pioneers master's whos students even black belts show up at state level competions cannot do thier forms or even have basic level skills.*



Actually this is what you wrote: &#8220;those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.&#8221;  And as far as name dropping is concerned, GM Seung Wan Lee feels that I, as his student, can invoke his name at any time, feel free to ask him.


Master Dan said:


> *Originally Posted by Master Dan*
> 
> *The real coruption* *in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.*
> 
> ...



Not by the Kukkiwon. So it must be hearsay. 



Master Dan said:


> *And in addition to this specifics in the masters license manual implied that regional GM's selected by KKW or a national regional association for appoval unless there was not such an association in you area would only be accepted for rank advancement. I took issue with this publically saying that for those of us who have tested under the same GM for decades now have to be approved or tested by someone else? They backed off verbally saying well of course we would still accept your GM's applications but it is still in print? In addition anyone awarding rank certificates seperately out side of KKW will be subject to having thier KKW Dan rank revoked for life.*



They did not back off from you &#8220;verbally&#8221; or any other way, that is a very negative statement. You are confusing Kukkiwon Rules and Regulations for 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Category Nations, with those of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Category Nations. The U.S.A., Mexico, Greece, Morocco, China are examples of 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] Category Nations were one only has to hold Kukkiwon 4[SUP]th[/SUP] Dan in order to apply for their students Dan from Kukkiwon. 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Category Nations like Korea, Puerto Rico, Turkey, Libya, and Vietnam have follow these types of rules and regulations that you mention, depending on the status of how many senior Dan holders are in that nation. It&#8217;s all in the Kukkiwon Instructors Course book and partly in the Textbook.



Master Dan said:


> *By the way my personal best friend and prominent student of our GM was at the 64th aniversery of Jidokwan in Korea one of only two non Koreans there was awarded 9th Dan by the president of Jidokwan out of a concern for carring on the legacy of Jidokwan in the US. If you care to PM me I will send you pictures of that gathering and his being awarded the rank.*



I am sure your friend is a noble and excellent person. However, the legacy of Jidokwan is being carried on by every person who wears a v-neck uniform and practices Kukkiwon Taekwondo, it has never been charged to anyone person or group of people. In fact, when contacted by USA Taekwondoin, the Taekwondo Jidokwan, Korea recommends that anyone in the USA interested in having a relationship with Taekwondo Jidokwan contact GM KIM Koang Woong of Kenosha, WI and GM Sang Chul Lee of Colorado Springs, CO.


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## puunui (Mar 21, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> I am guilty at tmes possilby baiting to draw out more discusion to get deeper in the issue and heated as it may be it tends to draw additional people in that may tend to only read and not participate.



That is called being a troll. But if you are going to participate in these discussions, then I would ask you to write more carefully, instead of these long rambling type posts which often times does not make sense. 




Master Dan said:


> My first bias would be based on having been one of the prominent students of a senior 9th Dan very well respected but also an accomplished international fighter as well as fighting in extreme combat conditions, related to Mas Oyama and in my 40 years of meeting and seeing many masters I never met a more powerful man in extreme breaking with no fakery involved we all know what that is tricks of the trade so to speak.



Are you saying that you are a "prominent student" of GM CHOI Tae Hong? What makes one a prominent student? mastercole and I have interacted with GM Choi numerous times at USTU events. Our discussions with him has left a very different impression than the one you are presenting here. In my opinion. 



Master Dan said:


> *We were always taught there were 8 Kwan's and at the Master's lincense test the printed manual presented by the KKW did state only 5 and left out Jidokwan. *



What are you talking about? What eight kwan? 




Master Dan said:


> *When I was refering to pioneers I was thinking of the early masters that first came to CONUS to teach. *



What is CONUS? The continental US? 




Master Dan said:


> I was taugth that the Korean government refused to give funding to pursue the Olympics unless the Korean martial artists could unify.



Incorrect. Korean government funding was offered but Dr. Un Yong KIM declined, stating that taekwondo should remain independent of korean government funding. 



Master Dan said:


> This was not accomplished in a single try and some founders of the Kwans or thier particular style did not want to become part of modern TKD due to fears it would change thier particular style of teaching in a negative way. Some were angry and reluctant to join.



One kwan founder (GM HWANG Kee) did not wish to sign the kwan unity act because he was vehemently opposed to General Choi's leadership of the KTA. 



Master Dan said:


> *I am refering to the present an impression I got from both the international Hanmadang referee seminar and masters license test based on printed and both comments by the head KKW PoomSe instructor's repeated comments that the KKW was trying to no use Kwan terminoloy any more that there was only one taekwondo now. *


There is a unified terminology used by the Kukkiwon. 



Master Dan said:


> *This is a good statment and my frustration is that some who are dedicated to only the technical accuracy of performance believe there is nothing else and that some how a person who varies is less capable of defending themselves? *


Who said this? I know I never did. Standardized poomsae and freedom of expression in sparring are to me the um yang of taekwondo.



Master Dan said:


> *The real coruption in TKD started long ago with the influence of money.*



The real corruption in Taekwondo happened when instructors moved back to the US and began teaching their own corrupted variant of taekwondo and trying to pass that off as the same as, or better than the taekwondo practiced in Korea. 



Master Dan said:


> *It has been discussed and even put in writting my many over the past 3 years. And in addition to this specifics in the masters license manual implied that regional GM's selected by KKW or a national regional association for appoval unless there was not such an association in you area would only be accepted for rank advancement. I took issue with this publically saying that for those of us who have tested under the same GM for decades now have to be approved or tested by someone else? They backed off verbally saying well of course we would still accept your GM's applications but it is still in print? In addition anyone awarding rank certificates seperately out side of KKW will be subject to having thier KKW Dan rank revoked for life. *


I have no idea what you are talking about above.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> That is called being a troll. But if you are going to participate in these discussions, then I would ask you to write more carefully, instead of these long rambling type posts which often times does not make sense.



*ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you. 

Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.


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## mastercole (Mar 21, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> *ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.
> 
> Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.



You are calling robotic. Personal expression in Poomsae is encouraged, walking like a duck, doing wild looping high blocks etc, is not.

Ask any of the Poomsae Team members on MT, they can tell you better that me.


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## puunui (Mar 21, 2012)

mastercole said:


> There are 5 &#8220;original&#8221; Kwan. Chung Do Kwan, Jidokwan, Chang Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan and Song Moo Kwan.  There are 4 &#8220;annex&#8221; kwan. Oh Do Kwan, Han Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, and Jung Do Kwan.



Some get confused because the Jidokwan gets confused with the "Chidokwan" and Chosun Yun Moo Kwan, which are all names for the same kwan, the Jidokwan as it is called today. I don't have the Kukkiwon Instructor's Manual in from of me, but I would think that the reason why the Jidokwan wasn't listed was because the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan was listed instead, just like the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu was probably listed for the Chang Moo Kwan.




mastercole said:


> The Kukkiwon President you speak of was GM LEE Seung Wan, President of Jidokwan since 1988. I would have never asked the question you ask, it has no basis in fact, and is insulting. And to me, it is embarrassing that he took you aside to talk to you. It is equally embarrassing to me that a person from Jidokwan roots would tie Jidokwan President Lee&#8217;s resignation as Kukkiwon President to anything other than the facts of the situation.



I agree. I first met GM Lee in Hawaii back in the early 90s, we have had numerous discussions over the years, and I would never ask those kinds of questions of him, or make such nonsensical connections. 




mastercole said:


> When the Kukkiwon says not to use kwan terms, they do so under authority of all the kwan. The kwan does not want us to use old kwan terms.



Exactly. And the biggest proponent of the new Kukkiwon terminology was GM LEE Chong Woo, who is the most senior Jidokwan member alive today. 



mastercole said:


> I was at that same Hanmadang Referee seminar. What they were telling us was that in the USA many competitors will be attending the Hanmadang FOR THE FIRST TIME. Most will not be up to date on the Kukkiwon standards for Poomsae, and we should be forgiving. That is all the meant, nothing else.



I was there as well for that Hanmadang International Referee seminar, I won the citation at that seminar, and I agree with mastercole's recollection of what was explained to the attendees. 





mastercole said:


> Actually this is what you wrote: &#8220;those who take the stance of a historian/academic/librarian view only that only the robotic persuit of the PoomSe is right or acceptable will find themselves on thier butt looking up some day if they have the luck to still be consious to see.&#8221;  And as far as name dropping is concerned, GM Seung Wan Lee feels that I, as his student, can invoke his name at any time, feel free to ask him.



I believe that all the kwan jang and pioneers that we speak to want us to tell the world what their actual viewpoint and philosophies are, so there is no confusion or second guessing or making wrong inferences about their exact position on things taekwondo. They are happy that we are spreading the word, and they show that by heaping dan certificates, citations, awards of merit, certificates of appointment and other such things, not the least of which being the priceless information that they share with us, which we in turn share with the world.


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## puunui (Mar 21, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> *ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.
> 
> Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.



Who said there can't be individual "tweaking"? If you recall, my comment was that you can go teach whatever you want, but please don't call your individualized tweaked out version the original kukkiwon way, because it isn't. I personally try to do it the standardized way for poomsae, and leave the creative portion of my taekwondo experience to sparring, but that's just me. If you want to go do your own thing, no one is stopping you, not me anyway. And what I didn't like about shotokan was the rigidity of thought over every aspect of the art, including but not limited to technical standards which were unnatural and ultimately hurtful in the long run. And time has proven that, given the number of jka types who have knee and back issues, to the point where it makes it difficult to continue training.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

puunui said:


> Who said there can't be individual "tweaking"? If you recall, my comment was that you can go teach whatever you want, but please don't call your individualized tweaked out version the original kukkiwon way, because it isn't. I personally try to do it the standardized way for poomsae, and leave the creative portion of my taekwondo experience to sparring, but that's just me. If you want to go do your own thing, no one is stopping you, not me anyway. And what I didn't like about shotokan was the rigidity of thought over every aspect of the art, including but not limited to technical standards which were unnatural and ultimately hurtful in the long run. And time has proven that, given the number of jka types who have knee and back issues, to the point where it makes it difficult to continue training.



That's the thing about Kukkiwon. Poomsae is the technical standard but everything else is how you like it. There is a lot of freedom.

I believe that anyone Kukkiwon Taekwondo practitioner who fails to understand the correct Poomsae, does not understand Taekwondo.


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## msmitht (Mar 22, 2012)

.After reading this thread I had to think about what the correct response should be.I learned mdk tkd/tsd hyung from baek, moon ku who learned them from ki, hwang. I learned itf/wtf poomsae from lee, young(san bernadino 7th dan itf/wtf at the time) and kim, jin hwan(in sii). There are so many differences between them than numbering them would be pointless unless you have a lot of free time.
The standard is the set way our kkw gms practice, teach and perform them. They put it down on paper and dvd. Any variations are the blame of poor, unproperly educated instructors and an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 22, 2012)

msmitht said:


> .
> 
> The standard is the set way our kkw gms practice, teach and perform them. They put it down on paper and dvd. Any variations are the blame of poor, unproperly educated instructors and an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).



My view is from the ITF /  Chang Hon perspective, and it's exasctly the same. 

AFAIAC just be honest about not knowing or not teaching the standard. Don't tell me how you tweak stuff, changed stuff,  like to be creative etc. unless you first can show or tell me what the standard is.  You can't claim to have tweaked something or are being creative with it if you don't know what the heck it was in the first place. 

Maybe, just maybe ... the seniors had reasons for doing things a certain way.   I have learned to do many things a certain way without understanding why initialy, and later either had the reasons explained, or reached an understanding. (OK, so I am still waiting for some stuff.)


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## leadleg (Mar 22, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> *ring ring* Hello? One moment please. Mr Pot? Mr Kettle is on the phone for you.
> 
> Standardization is fine and dandy, but without some room for individual "tweaking" then you're going to look like a robot. Something which, I seem to recall, you have said you didn't like about Japanese kata. How MUCH room is certainly extremely debatable, but I personally don't like robot forms.



WTF poomsae competition is scored as 40% technical, 60% presentation.


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## msmitht (Mar 22, 2012)

leadleg said:


> WTF poomsae competition is scored as 40% technical, 60% presentation.



Really? 2 poomsae IR's just told me that they give 2 scores up to 5 adding them for a max score of 10. Wouldn't that make it 50/50?


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## MSUTKD (Mar 22, 2012)

That is the old way Matt!  40/60 now.


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## ATC (Mar 22, 2012)

Yep 40/60 is what it is now.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

msmitht said:


> an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).



There you go again.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

leadleg said:


> WTF poomsae competition is scored as 40% technical, 60% presentation.



And I understand it could be weighted even higher towards presentation in the future.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

msmitht said:


> Really? 2 poomsae IR's just told me that they give 2 scores up to 5 adding them for a max score of 10. Wouldn't that make it 50/50?



I wonder who is to blame for the above erroneous viewpoint, a poor, improperly educated instructor or an absentee parent organization.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> My view is from the ITF /  Chang Hon perspective, and it's exactly the same.
> 
> AFAIAC just be honest about not knowing or not teaching the standard. Don't tell me how you tweak stuff, changed stuff,  like to be creative etc. unless you first can show or tell me what the standard is.  You can't claim to have tweaked something or are being creative with it if you don't know what the heck it was in the first place.
> 
> Maybe, just maybe ... the seniors had reasons for doing things a certain way.   I have learned to do many things a certain way without understanding why initialy, and later either had the reasons explained, or reached an understanding. (OK, so I am still waiting for some stuff.)



good post.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

msmitht said:


> .
> The standard is the set way our kkw gms practice, teach and perform them. They put it down on paper and dvd. Any variations are the blame of poor, unproperly educated instructors and an absentee parent org(kukkiwon).



The Kukkiwon makes itself completely available to everyone, I don't understand what you mean by absent?  You for example live in California. I believe California has had the greatest number of official Kukkiwon conducted educational events of any state, held by a variety of Kukkiwon related organizations, and California has the greatest number of Kukkiwon educated Taekwondo instructors of any state, and the greatest number of Kukkiwon Dan holders of any state in the USA. The first ever Hanmadang Kukkiwon Referee seminar was held in California. The first ever Kukkiwon World Hanmadang outside of Korea was held in California. I believe the Kukkiwon just conducted a Poomsae refresher course and Dan testing in California this month?

But I live in Ohio and Kukkiwon has never held any type of educational event in my state, a state where the USTU was founded.  However, I have the opportunity to attend official Kukkiwon conducted events around the USA, every year.  They also publish an excellent textbook, DVD set and free web access to their Media Learning Center. If I like, I can even fly to Korea, bring my students and train at the Kukkiwon itself. Living here in Ohio, a place where Kukkiwon has never conducted any kind of event, I can access to everything my students need to stay up to date on Kukkiwon standards. I just received an e-mail from Kukkiwon telling me about an event they are holding in Las Vegas in a few months.  I have students attending the instructors course in Korea this July. I don't feel Kukkiwon is absent at all.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

Originally Posted by *Earl Weiss* 


_My view is from the ITF / Chang Hon perspective, and it's exactly the same. 

AFAIAC just be honest about not knowing or not teaching the standard. Don't tell me how you tweak stuff, changed stuff, like to be creative etc. unless you first can show or tell me what the standard is. You can't claim to have tweaked something or are being creative with it if you don't know what the heck it was in the first place. 

Maybe, just maybe ... the seniors had reasons for doing things a certain way. I have learned to do many things a certain way without understanding why initialy, and later either had the reasons explained, or reached an understanding. (OK, so I am still waiting for some stuff.)_



puunui said:


> good post.



I believe Master Weiss just clearly stated the crux of the matter, more clearly that I ever could have. I will have to borrow it for future comment


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

We do a few forms differently to the original, but we are told that the GM changed them and we are shown (if we ask) what the original form looked like and where all the changes are.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> We do a few forms differently to the original, but we are told that the GM changed them and we are shown (if we ask) what the original form looked like and where all the changes are.



Did you ever ask?


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> The Kukkiwon makes itself completely available to everyone



The Kukkiwon is there for everyone who wish to seek it out. If the Kukkiwon is absent from your taekwondo experience, that is because of the student's choice, not the Kukkiwon's. I asked one of my instructors what the difference was between students in Korea, and students outside of Korea. His response was:  In Korea, the students ask 'please teach me'. Outside of Korea, the students expect the teacher to ask "Please learn from me."


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## msmitht (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> I wonder who is to blame for the above erroneous viewpoint, a poor, improperly educated instructor or an absentee parent organization.



I must have misunderstood what I was told. It was a late night conversation @ the us open in vegas. It has been a while since I looked up the competition poomsae rules. Ty for the correction msutkd and atc. 
Puunui: your tone and comment felt rude and uncalled for. The original reference was towards those who passed on corrupted poomsae without either knowing/caring and the kkw not checking up on what the instructors they certify are teaching. I have been to many kkw seminars and courses to make sure that I am teaching the correct standard. 
Done with you sir. Blocked.


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

msmitht said:


> I must have misunderstood what I was told. Ty for the correction msutkd and atc. Puunui that was rude and uncalled for. Done with you.



Calling ones seniors who make great efforts to be as available as possible to 200 nations of the world (80 million practitioners) "absentee", and who are making the biggest splash in your own backyard might be considered rude if you think about it.


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## msmitht (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Calling ones seniors who make great efforts to be as available as possible to 200 nations of the world (80 million practitioners) "absentee", and who are making the biggest splash in your own backyard might be considered rude if you think about it.



I was editing as you replied. Does it make more sense now? Yes, the kkw is NOW holding seminars and I have been to most of the ones in ca. I was referring to the past


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Did you ever ask?


Only regarding koryo, where a couple of moves in the first part are changed. The first three moves, the knife hand, the punch and the inside block. He wanted them all in a different stance and changed it to horse stance, front stance, back stance because thats the way his original teacher would teach it to emphasize quick stance changes. There was a lot more to it but thats the condensed version. Ive actually seen a few other clubs do it that way also. I will see if I can find something on youtube to demonstrate what I mean.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

this is exactly how we do it, I think I know the club, they are australian also.  Maybe its an aussie thing


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

msmitht said:


> I was editing as you replied. Does it make more sense now? Yes, the kkw is NOW holding seminars and I have been to most of the ones in ca. I was referring to the past



I believe it was in the late 1980's I started writing a yearly letter to the Kukkiwon "Leadership Academy" asking them to please consider opening a Taekwondo instructors course for foreigners. The reason I did so is because my Sabumnim had a Kukkiwon Instructors certificate in his office and a photo of his graduating class. I ask him about that course and after he described it to me, he said that KTA had just passed the responsibility of that course over to Kukkiwon right before he took the course, and they told him in the course that once they feel they improved the course, they would make a course for international instructors. 

So I started sending letters. I got back a reply telling they were in the planning stage, they also sent me a textbook, videos, WTF magazines, Kukkiwon newsletters, etc and told me that any time I wanted to come train at the Academy, I could make a special arrangement, or, I could fly an academy instructor to my dojang for up to a month.  In 1998 they sent me a letter and called me on the phone telling me the 1st Foreign Instructors Qualification Training Course was scheduled for July of that years, and how many American Taekwondo masters can I bring to the course. I asked how many should I bring, they said "ten", so I brought ten. There were just a couple of other American's who showed up alone. We became the first group of American born masters to graduate the Kukkiwon Instructor course. All together there were 98 participants from 38 nations I believe. I wrote a rough article about my experience at that course and put it out on puuniu's e-newsletter and a few internet sites. I was amazed at how many people from the USA and around the world contacted me asking for information and advise on attending the course. Since then the Kukkiwon has expanded the courses they offer and has been conducting courses around the world in over 100 nations so far.

I was very thankful for all their helpful and kind assistance. They always told me on the phone to keep in touch and not loose touch, even today. I never felt they were absent. I felt they were a new and growing organization that had an enormous burden to try and keep up with the firestorm spreading of Taekwondo fueled by the WTF.

Here is a picture of the 1st group of Americans to graduate that course.






[/IMG]

Below is the whole class photo lined up during training.






[/IMG]


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## andyjeffries (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I wrote a rough article about my experience at that course and put it out on puuniu's e-newsletter and a few internet sites.



If you still have that content could you kindly post it or a link to it on here.

I have a document that Miles sent me a few years ago about his experience on the course, but I'm always interested in reading more about it.

Aiming to go in July 2013.


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> If you still have that content could you kindly post it or a link to it on here.
> 
> I have a document that Miles sent me a few years ago about his experience on the course, but I'm always interested in reading more about it.
> 
> Aiming to go in July 2013.



I'll see you there in 2013.  That paper was like 5 computers ago. I think it's gone. I would have to clean it up if I found it, it was written in one sitting and very rough.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I'll see you there in 2013.



Awesome!  My Grandmaster will be there too (GM Pan Sim Woon for those of you that know him, I know Miles met him - they guy who tore his Achilles at the FIC).



mastercole said:


> That paper was like 5 computers ago. I think it's gone. I would have to clean it up if I found it, it was written in one sitting and very rough.



Ah OK.  I'll have a look through my old email newsletters to see if I can find it (but you wrote a LOT on there so it might be a needle in a haystack).


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## Miles (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> .......There were just a couple of other American's who showed up alone. We became the first group of American born masters to graduate the Kukkiwon Instructor course. All together there were 98 participants from 38 nations I believe. I wrote a rough article about my experience at that course and put it out on puuniu's e-newsletter and a few internet sites. I was amazed at how many people from the USA and around the world contacted me asking for information and advise on attending the course. Since then the Kukkiwon has expanded the courses they offer and has been conducting courses around the world in over 100 nations so far.
> 
> I was very thankful for all their helpful and kind assistance.



I remember reading of your wonderful experience as well as others who subsequently took the course on the TKD.net.  I feel blessed to have had the wonderful opportunity to attend it in Korea (and again in Chicago where I met some members of Martialtalk).  Thank you for your lobbying efforts!


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I'll see you there in 2013.



2013 is the last time the Instructor Course will be held in the Kukkiwon, before the Academy moves to the Taekwondo Park (now known as the Taekwondowon).


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## andyjeffries (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> 2013 is the last time the Instructor Course will be held in the Kukkiwon, before the Academy moves to the Taekwondo Park (now known as the Taekwondowon).



My Grandmaster was hoping it would be the first time it would be held at the Taekwondowon (as he's been to two previous FIC at the Kukkiwon).  Personally I was hoping for a Kukkiwon one (as I've never been and will have opportunities in the future to attend them at Taekwondowon as I progress).  Looks like I'll be the lucky one ;-)


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

msmitht said:


> Puunui: your tone and comment felt rude and uncalled for.



I was merely parroting the words that you yourself used. So if you feel the tone or comment was rude and uncalled for, then perhaps you should think twice about using such words to describe others or the institution whose certificates and training you are so proud of. 



msmitht said:


> The original reference was towards those who passed on corrupted poomsae without either knowing/caring and the kkw not checking up on what the instructors they certify are teaching.



How does that change the fact that your words (which I copied and used with respect to you) was rude and uncalled for? If you are going to subject others to that sort of harsh criticism, then you should be prepared to accept it yourself when used towards you. Put another way, perhaps the leniency and understanding that you are so willing to heap onto yourself when mistaken (the 60/40 50/50 thing) can also be used towards others as well. 



msmitht said:


> I have been to many kkw seminars and courses to make sure that I am teaching the correct standard.



Which is why it makes no sense to me why you would want to complain about the kukkiwon in any shape or form. I would think that you would instead be grateful for the opportunity to attend such courses and encourage others to attend as well. 




msmitht said:


> Done with you sir. Blocked.



And who loses if you do that? Me? I don't think so. But no problem. At least you are consistent, that I am being treated the same way that you treat the Kukkiwon. You take the good parts with one hand while shooting out public disrespect with the other.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

Oh and by the way, 



msmitht said:


> .After reading this thread I had to think about what the correct response should be.I learned mdk tkd/tsd hyung from baek, moon ku who learned them from ki, hwang.



GM HWANG Kee's last name is Hwang, not Kee. And his first name is spelled Kee, not Ki. You have GM Baek's name in the proper order (baek, moon ku), but not GM Hwang's (ki, hwang). I assume you are using that comma to emphasize that the last name is first, and first name is last. Also, in order to avoid confusion I usually spell the last name in all capitals, which is the way the IOC chooses to do it.

http://www.olympic.org/content/the-ioc/the-ioc-institution1/ioc-members-list/


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> 2013 is the last time the Instructor Course will be held in the Kukkiwon, before the Academy moves to the Taekwondo Park (now known as the Taekwondowon).



That is why I am going, to take my sons so they have the experience of attend the course at the Kukkiwon. They have done training at the Kukkiwon and they loved it, so a full week at the course will be an awesome experience for them. I also want them to take the first courses offered at Taekwondowon as well.  I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.


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## puunui (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.



When is the Taekwondowon scheduled to open? September 4?


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> When is the Taekwondowon scheduled to open? September 4?



That is what I was told, but not everything will be finished until about 2014-15, supposedly.


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> this is exactly how we do it, I think I know the club, they are australian also. Maybe its an aussie thing



see new thread. Anyone know who Moon Lee of Australia is?


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## miguksaram (Mar 26, 2012)

mastercole said:


> That is why I am going, to take my sons so they have the experience of attend the course at the Kukkiwon. They have done training at the Kukkiwon and they loved it, so a full week at the course will be an awesome experience for them. I also want them to take the first courses offered at Taekwondowon as well.  I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.


It was my understanding that the Taekwondowon was something of WTF's doing and that happenings there was going to be separate from KKW. So now the KKW is going to be part of this as well, or did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the Taekwondowon from the very beginning?


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## d1jinx (Mar 26, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> It was my understanding that the Taekwondowon was something of WTF's doing and that happenings there was going to be separate from KKW. So now the KKW is going to be part of this as well, or did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the Taekwondowon from the very beginning?



you and me both.

I thought the park was seperate from KKW.  now, I  have to figure out a way to go to KKW 1 time this year before they close the doors.


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## d1jinx (Mar 26, 2012)

ARCHTKD,

Back to your original question.  I was taught pretty similiar to how the videos were done.  In fact, very similiar.  A few moves were different, like the step back after the last upchagi in taeguk1.  But anyway, still, thats how i was taught and told thats the KKW way.  That was back in the late 80's and 90's.  Funny thing is, now I have KKW books from then, that show, they were the same today as they were then.

So how did they become so different?  well, easy.  the same way I learned them and was told "the right way" was the way the instructor either chose to do them or was taught them.  Now with so much emphisis being placed on bringing all KKW TKD poomse back to "spec", most if not all are trying to do just that.  The right way.  But I also know 2 who refuse to change.  And they still promote KKW, still compete, and still say "this is how we do it and we're not changing".  And it only re-enforces thier thoughts when their people go to regional qualifiers and WIN, doing it thier way.  go figure.


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> It was my understanding that the Taekwondowon was something of WTF's doing and that happenings there was going to be separate from KKW. So now the KKW is going to be part of this as well, or did I totally misunderstand the purpose of the Taekwondowon from the very beginning?



I only know what was discussed with my Korean seniors.  The WTF is the International Federation for Taekwondo with offices in Europe and Seoul. The WTF endorses Taekwondowon, but it does not run it or control it.  The services provide by Kukkiwon will somehow merge into the Taekwondowon. Once that happens, it is possible that the Kukkiwon will become like the all the Kwan. It would cease to exist, the building might be torn down and condo's would go up on that spot. Then I guess those of us who trained at and under the Kukkiwon would then be part of the "Kukkiwon social club" a fraternal society of past members who support the Taekwondowon and the WTF.

But no official statements of any kind have been made in this regard, so I really don't know for sure.  I do think that certain things point in this direction though.  The World Taekwondo Academy moving to Taekwondowon and now the changing of the name from Taekwondo Park to Taekwodowon.  It reminds me of how the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) changed the name of it's Central Gymnasium to "Kukkiwon", then after time, they made Kukkiwon completely independent from KTA.  The services that the KTA use to do for all of Taekwondo were given over to Kukkiwon.  Now it appears those same services will be give over by Kukkiwon to the new Taekwondowon.

The more I think about it, I think it is a great plan and I am excited to see it all unfold.


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> ARCHTKD,
> 
> Back to your original question.  I was taught pretty similiar to how the videos were done.  In fact, very similiar.  A few moves were different, like the step back after the last upchagi in taeguk1.  But anyway, still, thats how i was taught and told thats the KKW way.  That was back in the late 80's and 90's.  Funny thing is, now I have KKW books from then, that show, they were the same today as they were then.
> 
> So how did they become so different?  well, easy.  the same way I learned them and was told "the right way" was the way the instructor either chose to do them or was taught them.  Now with so much emphisis being placed on bringing all KKW TKD poomse back to "spec", most if not all are trying to do just that.  The right way.  But I also know 2 who refuse to change.  And they still promote KKW, still compete, and still say "this is how we do it and we're not changing".  And it only re-enforces thier thoughts when their people go to regional qualifiers and WIN, doing it thier way.  go figure.



Some folks just will not accept facts. They can win at USAT events, but it ends there. It won't work on the international scene. So their instructors have created an artificial barrier that prevents them from going international with their Poomsae.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 26, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Some folks just will not accept facts. They can win at USAT events, but it ends there. It won't work on the international scene. So their instructors have created an artificial barrier that prevents them from going international with their Poomsae.



Therein lies an  important and often overlooked consideration. We are a highly mobile society. People relocate for work, school  family, etc.  Now, if they think they have been taught the "right way" and relocate to a school that truly teaches the widely acepted standard they will of course think the new place is doing it wrong. With a little research they will learn that the new place is correct and they have been taught wrong.   How do you think they will feel about the previous instruction? 

Instructors do a disservice to their students when they do not teach according to the widely accepted standard and allow their students to think otherwise.  If, an instructor thinks they have a "Better way" why not just teach the standard, make sure the students know it, and explain why you think some alteration may be "better" and let them learn that as well. (I wouldn't suggest too much info for beginners.)


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Therein lies an  important and often overlooked consideration. We are a highly mobile society. People relocate for work, school  family, etc.  Now, if they think they have been taught the "right way" and relocate to a school that truly teaches the widely acepted standard they will of course think the new place is doing it wrong. With a little research they will learn that the new place is correct and they have been taught wrong.   How do you think they will feel about the previous instruction?
> 
> Instructors do a disservice to their students when they do not teach according to the widely accepted standard and allow their students to think otherwise.  If, an instructor thinks they have a "Better way" why not just teach the standard, make sure the students know it, and explain why you think some alteration may be "better" and let them learn that as well. (I wouldn't suggest too much info for beginners.)



A few year back I had a practitioner move to my town from across Cleveland. They held a black belt from that school of some dan level I don't recall, the certificate had lots of Dragon's, Tigers and poorly written Hanja all over it, anyway they did the most mutated version of Kemgang Poomsae I ever saw, complete with kicks and ground rolls. My Dan holders watch in amazement. I was cool and said "great", let me show you these books and video by the Kukkiwon. They were in shock, stating that the book and video were wrong. I them ran then through Keumgang several times, they said it was a very odd way to do Keumgang. On another day they attended sparring training. It was like someone walking down the street just stopped in and tried to spar. I had to remove them from the sparring because I was in great fear for their safety. They were literally running into kicks and punches, at the same time they were kicking and punching poorly at the air and screaming.  Later I asked if they felt they would be able to adapt to our school, which meant following the standard of Kukkiwon. Their comment was that they did not care what kind of books or video's I had, that there were thousands of them out there, pick one. But they were doing the true and original version because their American born instructor did not learn it from a book or video, he learned it from GM Kim who came over from Korea and had learned in there. They also felt that no one at the sparring class new anything about Taekwondo sparring as well.  They still live in my town but drive across Cleveland to attend their old school.


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

On a very different note, a few years ago a black belt practitioner from Winnipeg, Canada moved to my town. His Poomsae is excellent and he generally nails the Kukkiwon standard.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 27, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Later I asked if they felt they would be able to adapt to our school, which meant following the standard of Kukkiwon. .



If I think they are not following the widely accepted standard, this is one of the first things I ask... before they step on the floor.  I explain that we follow a certain standard and ask if they are open minded and adaptable.  If they are non Chang Hon I really emphasize this point and if they have substantial time in another system I explainm that they are welcome to train and learn, but the transition would be much easier for them if they found a school that teaches the same system. 

If they are Chang Hon, depending on who is on the floor I may have several students perform a pattern and then announce where they learned it.  When they say, Canada, Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Connecticut... and the person thought I had taught all of them because they were so similar, then they get the point.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 27, 2012)

mastercole said:


> That is why I am going, to take my sons so they have the experience of attend the course at the Kukkiwon. They have done training at the Kukkiwon and they loved it, so a full week at the course will be an awesome experience for them. I also want them to take the first courses offered at Taekwondowon as well.  I think we might just stay in Korea for a month or so since the course and the opening of the park are sort of close time wise.



Sounds like I may also get to meet Joe then and thank him personally for the help he's given me! (and thank you personally of course my friend!)


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## miguksaram (Mar 27, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I only know what was discussed with my Korean seniors.  The WTF is the International Federation for Taekwondo with offices in Europe and Seoul. The WTF endorses Taekwondowon, but it does not run it or control it.  The services provide by Kukkiwon will somehow merge into the Taekwondowon. Once that happens, it is possible that the Kukkiwon will become like the all the Kwan. It would cease to exist, the building might be torn down and condo's would go up on that spot. Then I guess those of us who trained at and under the Kukkiwon would then be part of the "Kukkiwon social club" a fraternal society of past members who support the Taekwondowon and the WTF.
> 
> But no official statements of any kind have been made in this regard, so I really don't know for sure.  I do think that certain things point in this direction though.  The World Taekwondo Academy moving to Taekwondowon and now the changing of the name from Taekwondo Park to Taekwodowon.  It reminds me of how the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) changed the name of it's Central Gymnasium to "Kukkiwon", then after time, they made Kukkiwon completely independent from KTA.  The services that the KTA use to do for all of Taekwondo were given over to Kukkiwon.  Now it appears those same services will be give over by Kukkiwon to the new Taekwondowon.
> 
> The more I think about it, I think it is a great plan and I am excited to see it all unfold.



Thank you for that clarification.  My last trip there I was not really in favor of the Taekwondowon because of the way they were presenting it.  I was very disappointed in what they were showing.  I forgot my exact words, but I believe I told them it looked nothing more than a glorified Disney world with TKD as a side show. Mostly because they were touting on how they were going to include so much culture of Korea into this project, yet, in order to do that, they were going to tear up half the mountain side and country side in order to make it happen, thus killing off some of that which they were claiming to display.  

They went on to say that all historical culture preservation would have to funded by donations while everything else would be paid for through their budget.  Perhaps, all that has changed since my last trip with the USTC back in 2010.

I will tell you that I do like the fact that it will be Muju Jeolla-bukdo province.  The main reason it is right next to my wife's hometown of Jeonju, but another reason it gives exposure to that part of the country that very few people get a chance to see.


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> So how did they become so different?  well, easy.  the same way I learned them and was told "the right way" was the way the instructor either chose to do them or was taught them.  Now with so much emphisis being placed on bringing all KKW TKD poomse back to "spec", most if not all are trying to do just that.  The right way.  But I also know 2 who refuse to change.  And they still promote KKW, still compete, and still say "this is how we do it and we're not changing".  And it only re-enforces thier thoughts when their people go to regional qualifiers and WIN, doing it thier way.  go figure.



I think it was a combination of a lot of different factors which led to the way it is done in the US. For one thing, many of the early taekwondo teachers who immigrated to the US learned their poomsae in Korea when there was the fascination with Japanese karate, with the wide stance and so forth. Then when they learned the new forms (which were supposed to be done with the short narrow stance), they learned at short seminars which did not allow enough time to fully absorb the technical aspects of the forms. They just wanted people to get the movements. There is also an amount of peer pressure involved, at least those involved with the USTU. There is or was a USTU style, doing the slap blocks in taebaek with dynamic tension, for example, instead of quickly like how it is supposed to be done. 

Those sorts of things.


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

mastercole said:


> But no official statements of any kind have been made in this regard, so I really don't know for sure.  I do think that certain things point in this direction though.  The World Taekwondo Academy moving to Taekwondowon and now the changing of the name from Taekwondo Park to Taekwodowon.  It reminds me of how the Korea Taekwondo Association (KTA) changed the name of it's Central Gymnasium to "Kukkiwon", then after time, they made Kukkiwon completely independent from KTA.  The services that the KTA use to do for all of Taekwondo were given over to Kukkiwon.  Now it appears those same services will be give over by Kukkiwon to the new Taekwondowon.
> 
> The more I think about it, I think it is a great plan and I am excited to see it all unfold.



I disagree. it might be a great plan, but the execution is no good. For one thing, it is in muju. If they had done it in Seoul, at the Olympic Park someplace for example, then there would be much less objection. As it stands, the Seoul City Taekwondo Association (by far the largest regional association of the KTA) will be displaced, and now we have to travel way down the penninsula, frequently after a very long plane flight, to get there. And when we finally get there, other than the Taekwondowon, there is nothing to do. Chonju shuts down at 8pm.


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## miguksaram (Mar 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> I disagree. it might be a great plan, but the execution is no good. For one thing, it is in muju. If they had done it in Seoul, at the Olympic Park someplace for example, then there would be much less objection. As it stands, the Seoul City Taekwondo Association (by far the largest regional association of the KTA) will be displaced, and now we have to travel way down the penninsula, frequently after a very long plane flight, to get there. And when we finally get there, other than the Taekwondowon, there is nothing to do. Chonju shuts down at 8pm.


Actually it would be in Muju and I'm sure with such a big attraction they will accommodate for the night life.  They are already set up as a tourist place for most part as Muju is a big ski area for Korea, Japan and China.  So having the Taekwondowon there would give them tourism during the off-season for skiing.

BTW...There is nightlife in Jeonju after 8pm...you just have to know where to go.


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Actually it would be in Muju and I'm sure with such a big attraction they will accommodate for the night life.  They are already set up as a tourist place for most part as Muju is a big ski area for Korea, Japan and China.  So having the Taekwondowon there would give them tourism during the off-season for skiing. BTW...There is nightlife in Jeonju after 8pm...you just have to know where to go.



It is a big attraction in terms of size, but how many people will really visit it on a regular basis? The Kukkiwon is in Seoul, and for the most part there are very few tourists there at any one time. I always visit the Kukkiwon (there and kyobo) when in Korea, but Muju, I don't know if I would go everytime.


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## d1jinx (Mar 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think it was a combination of a lot of different factors which led to the way it is done in the US. For one thing, many of the early taekwondo teachers who immigrated to the US learned their poomsae in Korea when there was the fascination with Japanese karate, with the wide stance and so forth. Then when they learned the new forms (which were supposed to be done with the short narrow stance), they learned at short seminars which did not allow enough time to fully absorb the technical aspects of the forms. They just wanted people to get the movements. There is also an amount of peer pressure involved, at least those involved with the USTU. There is or was a USTU style, doing the slap blocks in taebaek with dynamic tension, for example, instead of quickly like how it is supposed to be done.
> 
> Those sorts of things.



I agree and completely understand that now.  My GM's and the ones I know all came here in the 70's just after Vietnam.  All were shown the Taegueks AFTER leaving Korea.  Although they were doing them when I started.  The taegueks were the first poomses I learned. (80's)

Since the Kukkiwons Push within the last few years to get everyone to the standards, I can say that they are all making every effort to do it the KKW way.  The ones who aren't are americans....


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> Since the Kukkiwons Push within the last few years to get everyone to the standards, I can say that they are all making every effort to do it the KKW way.  The ones who aren't are americans....



I do think other countries, especially those active at WTF International Events, are pushing hard for the standards, because they wish to win medals. I don't know why so many in the US are opposed. You would think we Americans would be the first to adopt the "new" way, given our attitudes regarding constantly new things in other areas. In the land of the free and the home of the brave, people chained to the old ways and are afraid to change.


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## mastercole (Mar 27, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Sounds like I may also get to meet Joe then and thank him personally for the help he's given me! (and thank you personally of course my friend!)



Any Englishman that sends me impossible to find Mott The Hoople gigs gets our assistance  He has been busy training and rendering more video from my old VHS tapes. As a matter of fact I am getting ready to put up something soon, I'll send you the link.


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## mastercole (Mar 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> I disagree. it might be a great plan, but the execution is no good. For one thing, it is in muju. If they had done it in Seoul, at the Olympic Park someplace for example, then there would be much less objection. As it stands, the Seoul City Taekwondo Association (by far the largest regional association of the KTA) will be displaced, and now we have to travel way down the penninsula, frequently after a very long plane flight, to get there. And when we finally get there, other than the Taekwondowon, there is nothing to do. Chonju shuts down at 8pm.



I don't disagree with you. I thought finding a remote mountain area not far from Seoul would have been ideal. But now that it is a done deal, I'll run with it and learn to like it I guess. Also, the benefits for the the whole southern region of Korea could be tremendous. Plus I have good friends and seniors in Chollabukdo.


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I don't disagree with you. I thought finding a remote mountain area not far from Seoul would have been ideal. But now that it is a done deal, I'll run with it and learn to like it I guess. Also, the benefits for the the whole southern region of Korea could be tremendous. Plus I have good friends and seniors in Chollabukdo.



This is definitely a "make lemonade" situation, at least for me. I like Seoul best when visiting Korea. Second is pusan, for the seafood.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 28, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Any Englishman that sends me impossible to find Mott The Hoople gigs gets our assistance



LOL!  I still find it funny that you're in to a rare UK band...



mastercole said:


> He has been busy training and rendering more video from my old VHS tapes. As a matter of fact I am getting ready to put up something soon, I'll send you the link.



COOL!


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## miguksaram (Mar 28, 2012)

Moved my reply to a whole new thread called Taekwondowon


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## miguksaram (Mar 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> This is definitely a "make lemonade" situation, at least for me. I like Seoul best when visiting Korea. Second is pusan, for the seafood.


Next time we are in Jeonju, I will make sure you are fed well sir.


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## Archtkd (Mar 28, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> I agree and completely understand that now. My GM's and the ones I know all came here in the 70's just after Vietnam. All were shown the Taegueks AFTER leaving Korea. Although they were doing them when I started. The taegueks were the first poomses I learned. (80's)
> 
> Since the Kukkiwons Push within the last few years to get everyone to the standards, I can say that they are all making every effort to do it the KKW way. The ones who aren't are americans....



The funny thing is when I started training in Kenya in the mid-198os, we were doing the current poomsae because my instructor Ernest Olayo, was the student of Han, You-Keun, (the 1975 World Taekwondo Championships fly-weight gold medalist). GM Han, a younger teacher of the Moo Do Kwan lineage, was already teaching the modern standards, to his students at an elite school known as Moi High School-Kabarak, which Master Olayo attended. 

GM Yoon, Mogg, was my kwanjang at the Kenya Taekwondo Association main dojang, which master Olayo had moved after graduatiing from college. Yoon came from the Oh Do Kwan lineage and was teaching corrupted stuff, even though he gave younger Kenyan and Korean instructors some leeway. There always seemed to be conflicts in how poomsae was being taught and judged in Kenya back then, and that problem still exists today, especially because Kenya's early taekwondoin, who were taught by Yoon had come from karate backrounds. The conflicts are reducing, though, thanks to an increase in the number of Kenyans travelling to Korea for training and the emergence of the Internet, which is helping Kenyans gain access to modern stuff. The introduction of WTF international poomsae competition also has greatly helped in pushing serious Kenyan taekwondoin to adopt Kukkiwon standards.


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## d1jinx (Mar 28, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> The conflicts are reducing, though, thanks to an increase in the number of Kenyans travelling to Korea for training and the emergence of the Internet, which is helping Kenyans gain access to modern stuff. The introduction of WTF international poomsae competition also has greatly helped in pushing serious Kenyan taekwondoin to adopt Kukkiwon standards.



ah yes, the "internets".  it is a grreat thing that has shrunk our world.  no more are we unable to obtain current information on any given subject thanks to the "internets".  Its not what it was 10 years ago, thats for sure.

I agree with you 100%.  The Internet and WTF Poomse system has forced the hands (so to speak) of everyone to finally return to the same page.


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Next time we are in Jeonju, I will make sure you are fed well sir.



The food is good, just nothing to really do there. I have my favorite places i like to go to when in Seoul, I guess I just have to learn to have new favorite places in Muju.


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## miguksaram (Mar 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> The food is good, just nothing to really do there. I have my favorite places i like to go to when in Seoul, I guess I just have to learn to have new favorite places in Muju.


I am not too familiar with Muju itself.  The first time there was back in 2009 during the fall and it was a ghost town.  We were at a decent resort, but nothing going on..even the night club was dead.  However, that is to be expected in ski resort area.  It is my hope that they will have more things to do in the off season once the Taekwondowon is up and running.


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## mastercole (Mar 28, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> The funny thing is when I started training in Kenya in the mid-198os, we were doing the current poomsae because my instructor Ernest Olayo, was the student of Han, You-Keun, (the 1975 World Taekwondo Championships fly-weight gold medalist). GM Han, a younger teacher of the Moo Do Kwan lineage, was already teaching the modern standards, to his students at an elite school known as Moi High School-Kabarak, which Master Olayo attended.
> 
> GM Yoon, Mogg, was my kwanjang at the Kenya Taekwondo Association main dojang, which master Olayo had moved after graduatiing from college. Yoon came from the Oh Do Kwan lineage and was teaching corrupted stuff, even though he gave younger Kenyan and Korean instructors some leeway. There always seemed to be conflicts in how poomsae was being taught and judged in Kenya back then, and that problem still exists today, especially because Kenya's early taekwondoin, who were taught by Yoon had come from karate backrounds. The conflicts are reducing, though, thanks to an increase in the number of Kenyans travelling to Korea for training and the emergence of the Internet, which is helping Kenyans gain access to modern stuff. The introduction of WTF international poomsae competition also has greatly helped in pushing serious Kenyan taekwondoin to adopt Kukkiwon standards.



Very interesting. Was GM Yoon considered the founder of Taekwondo in Morocco?  I know GM Mohammed Yoon of Morocco, who is also from Oh Do Kwan and wonder if they are the same person.


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## puunui (Mar 29, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Very interesting. Was GM Yoon considered the founder of Taekwondo in Morocco?  I know GM Mohammed Yoon of Morocco, who is also from Oh Do Kwan and wonder if they are the same person.




I think it is a different person. I also met GM Yoon from Morocco at a Kukkiwon function in Seoul. He has a very interesting martial arts background.


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## mastercole (Mar 29, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think it is a different person. I also met GM Yoon from Morocco at a Kukkiwon function in Seoul. He has a very interesting martial arts background.



The Ministry of Culture, Sports and Tourism presented him with a special government award for having over 1 million followers through the Mid-East. At one point he and I were sitting together in the crowd, when he was called to the stage during Taekwondo Day Celebration at Olympic Park. The Minister personally presented him the award. I was amazed and did not realize the government announced it. He came back and sat down and we continued to talk.  He went to Morocco in the 70's, founded Taekwondo there and converted to Islam. His father was a General in the South Korean Army. He and several other boys of General's would go to CHOI Hong Hi's home and learn Taekwondo from him directly.  He said that he and those few other boys were the only direct students of CHOI Hong Hi.  He said he has been a life long member of Oh Do Kwan and teaches the Kukkiwon curriculum. He and I were assigned as room mates at Olympic Parktel, we would talk for a few hours then he would leave and come back the next day, I'm sure he had a lot of friends to see.

Here is a photo of GM Yoon in our room, and one with a Middle East athlete.







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## Archtkd (Mar 30, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Very interesting. Was GM Yoon considered the founder of Taekwondo in Morocco?  I know GM Mohammed Yoon of Morocco, who is also from Oh Do Kwan and wonder if they are the same person.



No that's a different GM Yoon. I had written a brief history of Kenya taekwondo in one of the threads, which mentions GM Mogg Yoon, as being of the pioneers of Taekwondo in Kenya, where he still lives today and is most likely a citizen. He was brought to Kenya in the late 1970s by GM Lee, Ki Jin, the grandfather of Kenya taekwondo, who was also from the Jidokwan lineage. GM Yoon was involved in the formation of the Kenya Taekwondo Association and was its kwanjang for many years. He is no longer actively involved in Kenya taekwondo now because of politics. I'm still working on research on the history of taekwondo in Kenya and will shoot you what I've come up with so far.


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