# Censorship, Moderation and MartialTalk



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 15, 2003)

Its been brought to my attention that a few folks have problems with the way we run MartialTalk.

We've been called 'censors', 'nazis', 'facists' and 'communists'.  We've been told we take too long to stop a flame, or jump in too early. I've been told we ignore complaints. It was mentioned that we are 'biased' in how we moderate, going 'easy' on some, and 'hard' on others. That we 'lock threads for no reason other than to stifle discussion'.

Well....enough already.

I'm tired of putting in 30, 40+ hours a week, hundreds of dollars of my own cash, to deal with back stabbing, back room muttering, and the slings and arrows of cowards.

Heres your chance.

This thread is for an open discusion of what a vocal few seem to find so very wrong with this forum.  You have a problem?  Let us know here.  

We cant fix it if we dont know its broken.  

To those who have worked with us, I apologize for this outburst. I take the shots personally. 

And to those who have been muttering, PMing, emailing each other....its time to put up, or shut up n move out. 

Any wanker can sit there and *****, but it takes an adult to build a sollution.

As I said before...if anyone has a problem, I'm always here, and open to discussion.  In the end, I will do what I think is right for this forum, not me and not you.

The floor is yours folks.

:soapbox: 



*Note to all MartialTalk Staff - hands off this thread.  If this turns into a huge flamefest, then, that just shows the true color of those who flame.  No posts are to be tossed, edited, or locked in this thread. No warnings or other action is to be taken against anyone for comments made in -this- thread.*


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## Jill666 (Mar 15, 2003)

Have I always agreed 100% with solutions or timing of response to a problem? No- but as I have said elsewhere, unless I want to put my effort where my mouth is, then I'll abide. I don't want the pain in the *** job of moderating.

No problems here, and I'm saying it publicly. I'll not be saying anything else privately.

And for the record, I think you have balls for starting this thread.


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## dearnis.com (Mar 15, 2003)

moderators are much more even handed and laid back here than in other forums...yet the flames don't (usually) get out of hand, few members are suspended/banned.  Could it be that some are pissed simply because a mod didnt take their side???
It has to be a thankless job; you guys do well with it.


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 15, 2003)

I see no problem with the way you run things, Bob.


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

I saw the phrases "eating *****" and "Blow Jobs" used on the
forum, that went without warning, until I was given a warning
for saying "moisterizing her tatas", and complained about 
inconsistancy.  Then and only then were these words addressed.

I would point to another thread where I asked why a warning 
existed, or a thread was locked.  Yet a thorough search, and I
cant' find it!     Pretty sure I checked in the right place.

Remember, it was the thread where there were jokes made at
the expense of a VERY hairyman, who existed in the 19th century.
You guys felt that jokes at this dead man's expense were just too
terrible and horrific, and his feelings MUST be spared!  I believe
"this discussion is over" was the final comment there.

Here's yet another suggestion ... why not quote the rule violation
in the locked thread, or when the warning is posted?  That would
create more consistancy would it not?

This whole thing came up, because you locked a thread where
the whole message was basically "take it outside".  My comment 
that the board can and HAS been used to insight, or take pot
shots at someone DOES exist, and SHOULD BE addressed.  Yet
that post went unanswered.  Note, it was DIRECTED RIGHT AT
A MOD.  Yet, went unanswered.  And I have proven .. by the fact
that this thread exists .. that nice little snips in signature lines
CAN AND DO HURT PEOPLE'S FEELINGS!


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 15, 2003)

Give em Hell Kaith!  I am no angel, and I have had my complaints but I bring them to you and usually offer a solution.  I know how hard the job is especially when you have pain in the *** memebrs who try to destroy what you have build.

Keep up the good work!


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I saw the phrases "eating *****" and "Blow Jobs" used on the
> forum, that went without warning...*



THe post _was_ discussed by the moderation team and action was taken.  Just because you didn't see evidence of it doesn't mean nothing was done.  Furthermore, *no one* made a previous complaint about said post, so it wasn't brought to our attention the second it was put on the board.  Unfortunately, we *cannot* watch the board 24/7.  We all have real lives that take precedence.  However, the action you were warned about took place in a moderator's presence, so therefore, it was dealt with immediately.

Cthulhu


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## sweeper (Mar 15, 2003)

ewll I don't realy have any complaint, but it is anoying to come across a thred you havn't read, see it getting realy heatd, go through 40+ posts with a page of stuff you want to say than find it locked..  man that's anoying cause there's no outlet..  my brain just wants to scream..

ok but realy I have hod no problems personaly and this is the nicest board I have come across so I got say you are doing some thing (more likely things) right.


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *THe post was discussed by the moderation team and action was taken.  Just because you didn't see evidence of it doesn't mean nothing was done.  Furthermore, no one made a previous complaint about said post, so it wasn't brought to our attention the second it was put on the board.  Unfortunately, we cannot watch the board 24/7.  We all have real lives that take precedence.  However, the action you were warned about took place in a moderator's presence, so therefore, it was dealt with immediately.
> 
> Cthulhu *




That is a bald faced lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   That thread was ONLY deleted
AFTER I gave the link to arnisador!  Don't try to pass b.s. over on
me, if it was discussed in the mod lounge, Arnisador would've 
known EXACTLY what I was talking about instead of saying he
had no knowledge of it!


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

Again, we can't monitor the board 24/7.  

Do you have access to the moderation team's discussions?  

No. I didn't think so.

Do you actually know what we do and do not discuss?

No.  I didn't think so.

Did you consider that maybe we discussed the matter, took action, and then took further action at a later time?

No.  I didn't think so.

Did you consider that, because we all have other responsibilities to attend to, a couple of the mods may not have the latest information?

No.  I didn't think so.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 15, 2003)

No he may not have current modration powers  but he does know how thngs are handled here.  I really like this place, i brought a lot of people here because I like it here.  But from time to time there is some inconsistency in the moderation.  Especially whwn the person doesn't pull the Modern Arnis party line.

I seen many things in the Forum Mod Lounge that made me want to scream, but even though I left the mod team, I stayed as  a member and continue to bring new people here.


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Again, we can't monitor the board 24/7.
> 
> Do you have access to the moderation team's discussions?
> ...



it was DAYS and PAGES later that you guys took action .. mod
presence was there after that fact ... face it .. you guys aren't
consistent at all!  I considered all that you said ... and while
I'm not privy to reading the latest, I do have experience in it ...
you expect me to believe that arnisador wasn't aware of a 
discussion about that thread for a few days?  C'mon, I was a
mod, deliver your lies to someone else.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *...I do have experience in it ...*



*Did*.



> *
> C'mon, I was a
> mod, deliver your lies to someone else. *



Yes. *Was*.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Mar 15, 2003)

I do not always agree with the way you run things. Some times, however, I agree. This is how life works. Life is not fair but it usually has it's own way of working itself out.

I am sure for each time I am cheesed off about how you run things I should remember that I myself have probably caused you to pull at your hair in frustration.

So far this seems to be the best way to run this board. Until a better solution comes along I suggest you keep doing what you are doing.


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

Okay, and the point behind that, Cthulu was what?  What point
exactly were you trying to make?   

Are you going to sit there, and actually try to pass of that while
arnisador was VERY active in MANY MANY other threads during the
time that the comments were made, and sat there .. and while
he was active in the chat .. the he never once visited the mod
lounge, and hit the thread where you brought up said words,
and discussed it?


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

The point has already been made.  You no longer know what goes on with the moderation team.  You no longer know how things are run.  It is no longer any of your business, unless we decide to share said information.  If that is a problem for you, well, them's the breaks.

Cthulhu


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *The point has already been made.  You no longer know what goes on with the moderation team.  You no longer know how things are run.  It is no longer any of your business, unless we decide to share said information.  If that is a problem for you, well, them's the breaks.
> 
> Cthulhu *




Okay, so you're saying that you're not open to suggestions, and
that this thread is just lip service???  And that no matter what
problems anyone has here, then they should just shut up and
take it, cause you da man here, and they're just members?  How
it's run is NONE OF MY BUSINESS?  Then why even put this thread
up?


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Okay, so you're saying that you're not open to suggestions, and
> that this thread is just lip service???  And that no matter what
> problems anyone has here, then they should just shut up and
> ...



Where exactly did I say that, hmmmm?  I responded to _your_ complaints, since no one else really had such a vehement response on your topics.  At NO TIME did I imply I was not open to suggestions.  The simple point was made that you are no longer privy to what the moderation team does or discusses.  You apparently completely missed that point and inferred that I was 'not open to suggestions'.

Furthermore, my comments are *my* opinions and views *only* and in NO WAY reflect the opinions and views of the other members of the moderation staff.

Now, I'm going to enjoy the BBQ sammich my wife got me from my fave BBQ joint.

Sweet dreams.

Cthulhu


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Where exactly did I say that, hmmmm?  I responded to your complaints, since no one else really had such a vehement response on your topics.  At NO TIME did I imply I was not open to suggestions.  The simple point was made that you are no longer privy to what the moderation team does or discusses.  You apparently completely missed that point and inferred that I was 'not open to suggestions'.
> 
> Furthermore, my comments are my opinions and views only and in NO WAY reflect the opinions and views of the other members of the moderation staff.
> ...



And YOUR comments are lies! LIES LIES LIES!  First you said that
you guys were aware of it, but did nothing, then said you were all
aware of it, but Arnisador wasn't ... arnisador, who's the most
active moderator on this board.  How could ANYTHING be changed
THAT MUCH so that ARNISADOR wouldn't be aware of it?!?!?!

And you didn't address MY comments at all.  The fact of the matter
is that within seconds of my comment, I got a rude warning.  A 
week after someone mentions eating ***** and Blow Jobs, AND I
POINTED IT OUT TO ARNISADOR WHO KNEW NOTHING OF IT, then
you guys took action.  You're not explaining the WHY of that are
ya?  OR that the fact that shots taken at people in sig lines and 
titles need to be addressed.  This is the second thread in which
NOTHING was said about it! NOTHING AT ALL!! Zilch! Zip! Zero! 
Nada!  But I guess you're waiting for Arnisador to make his rare
appearance on this board so that you can discuss with him how
to address it?


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *The point has already been made.  You no longer know what goes on with the moderation team.  You no longer know how things are run.  It is no longer any of your business, unless we decide to share said information.  If that is a problem for you, well, them's the breaks.
> 
> Cthulhu *



Back the FiretrUCK up.  The idea that a forum where members contribute, some on a daily basis, and you decide what is fine and fair for some and not others is just wrong.  Saying it is none of anyone's business unless you decide to share said information just rubs me the wrong way.

I watched Arnisador with his hardon wanting to ban Gou everyday, and it was just pathetic.  The slightest comment and it was"Lets ban him".  It was a load of bull.  You would pipe when you logged on but usually bythen the matter had been decide already.  

This forum has a fair size of steady posters who love to contribute but I have seen people singled out the in louge because they rubbed one of the guys the wrong way.  I respect Bob for what he has done here.  I respect Renegade for really promoting this site at all the events and helping out with the moderation as his schedule permitted.  As for you and Arnisador I could really care less.  Tshadowchaser really put his heart into the job and has done great.

I also remember reading how in the beginning some of the moderation team didn't want this to be as open a forum as it is.  I remeber reading not really wanting the kenpo peopel here or was it all other martial arts other than modern arnis.

IF you want to toss me for this post I could care less.  I really like what Bob has started I just think he needs a little more evenhandedness from the rest of his administrators.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

:rofl:


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

You claim to be so scholastic and learned.  Don't tell me you don't
see where you said it is none of my business how things are run.
Or that you don't know the purpose behind this thread.  Which
one is it?


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## Cthulhu (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Back the FiretrUCK up.  The idea that a forum where members contribute, some on a daily basis, and you decide what is fine and fair for some and not others is just wrong.  Saying it is none of anyone's business unless you decide to share said information just rubs me the wrong way.
> 
> *



Whoops.  Very sorry.  I wasn't quite clear.  What I meant was that now that he is no longer a moderator, the specifics of what we discuss are no longer his business unless it directly concerns him.

Other than that, yes, the boardmembers have every right to voice concerns over how the moderation is done.

Very sorry.  Inventory tonight.  I am bushed.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Arnisador with his hardon wanting Gou everyday*



What can I say? The ladies love me.
:ladysman:


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

Now I know why Kaith wasn't aware of my PM's to you, politely
asking why you locked/warned in a thread.  Ya simply lied to him.
It makes sense now.


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## arnisador (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I saw the phrases "eating *****" and "Blow Jobs" used on the
> forum, that went without warning, until I was given a warning
> for saying "moisterizing her tatas", and complained about
> ...



*Kirk*, I believe that you believe that if I had seen those phrases I'd have edited them out at the very least. I wasn't reading that thread. We try our best to cover this board but we can't read every post. That's why we rely on reports. When those phrases were pointed out to me, I edited them out. (Deleting posts is hard for reasons relating to how the software is set up. Editing them is much easier. I'd have simply deleted them if it wasn't more difficult to do so.) Do you really believe that I'd have let those go? Me?

The warning to you was on chat and chat isn't the same as the board. I won't discuss that matter further in public unless you ask that I do so--otherwise, we respect your privacy.



> *
> Remember, it was the thread where there were jokes made at
> the expense of a VERY hairyman, who existed in the 19th century.
> You guys felt that jokes at this dead man's expense were just too
> ...



Sometimes, the discussion simply must end and we must move on. The Shaolin-Do? thread you mentioned was pruned--some posts were deleted or edited--and there were complaints (see here). You can imagine my shock at learning that we couldn't please all of the people all of the time, and yet, in our opinion it had passed beyond a couple of jokes to a thread that principally made fun of a disabled person based on their disability. Since the person is long sicne deceased, we allowed a little leeway--but the dog jokes were just too much. It isn't that he could be offended, *Kirk*. It's because--as you say about the posts involving references to fellatio--tehre's a "broken windows" effect wherein people see that sort of thing and think it's OK here.

You're arguing against yourself, *Kirk*. If the presence of the vulgar posts made you think that sort of thing was OK and you were upset to find that they weren't removed, how can you complain about us removing these posts to keep people from thinking that that's OK?



> *
> Here's yet another suggestion ... why not quote the rule violation
> in the locked thread, or when the warning is posted?  That would
> create more consistancy would it not?*



We discuss these things amongst outrselves to create consitency. Often the rule is simply "not in the spirit of MartialTalk"; in other cases citing the rule might seem more accusative than we intend. Still, this is worth considering. It may be helpful to be more explicit about why we lock a given thread.



> *
> My comment that the board can and HAS been used to insight, or take pot shots at someone DOES exist, and SHOULD BE addressed.  Yet that post went unanswered.  Note, it was DIRECTED RIGHT AT A MOD.  Yet, went unanswered. *



The mods. promise you a number of things, but an answer to every posted query isn't one of them. You'll have better luck if you PM an admin. (Kaith Rustaz, Cthulhu, or me). 

We don't want people taking potshots on the board. Honestly, some are too subtle for us to see. The thread that started this mentioned a dig based on suggesting someone was or wasn't a brown belt--I can't pick up on that. We deal with complaints as best we can.

This board is administered by three volunteers and moderated by an additional two (nightingale8472 and tshadowchaser). All of us have other commitments. None of us are lawyers. Only Kaith has any other experience moderating a board and that's a small one. We do the best we can.

I really don't mind constructive criticism. In fact, I appreciate it. There's no reason to do this other than to make this a nice place for the members. I'm not getting money, fame, or power. But the assumption that we are doing poorly for any reason other than inexperience or inadequate policies really offends me, because this takes a _lot_ of time that most people would be unwilling to commit. How many threads do you see me in, in how many fora? How often do you see me digging up an old thread to point people along the right path? Beyond that, there are internal discussions amongst the mods. on our closed forum, on chat, and by phone. We often talk through things that we decide _not_ to do as we don't think they're quite right. I spent quite some time crafting an internal document for procedures for mods. the other night. It takes a ton of time--right now, there are things I'd rather be doing than having this argument (e.g., something positive for the board, like trying to drum up some action in the Fencing forum, or looking into whether there are enough boxing posts across the board to justify a forum for it). It's a lot of work. By all measn let me know when I could be doing better--but please don't attribute failings to anything other than me failing to do as well as I'd like to be doing. We don't always make the right decisions, but given that this place loses money and costs a lot of time, don't you think that we're trying to do so?



> *
> "Thread locked" --Martial Talk Commies
> *



Well, this is just childish.

I say again, I'm writing for myself, not on behalf of MartialTalk.


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## arnisador (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *That is a bald faced lie!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  *



No, it's correct. I didn't know about the posts until you pointed them out to me. Other mods. may or may not have. (I include all admins. as mods.) There is usually a delay between us finding out about something--by report or by us noticing it--and acting on it as we try to discuss our actions to reach consensus. Some of our actions may not be visible to the board members. Not uncommonly, our actions are staggered--we agree on one aspect of handling things but continue to discuss another aspect of it.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *No, it's correct. I didn't know about the posts until you pointed them out to me. Other mods. may or may not have. (I include all admins. as mods.) There is usually a delay between us finding out about something--by report or by us noticing it--and acting on it as we try to discuss our actions to reach consensus. Some of our actions may not be visible to the board members. Not uncommonly, our actions are staggered--we agree on one aspect of handling things but continue to discuss another aspect of it.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



Cthulhu was saying that you did in fact know about the thread
BEFORE I pointed it out to you.  You admit that, then say that
my calling him on that lie wasn't true?  ALERT inconsistency here!


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## arnisador (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *This forum has a fair size of steady posters who love to contribute but I have seen people singled out the in louge because they rubbed one of the guys the wrong way.  *



One hopes this isn't the case, but we're only human. But that's why we have the policy of discussing things and coming to a consensus--so that one mod. who is very offended by a certain memebr's behaviour is counterbalanced by the rest of the mod. team. That's how the system works! I'm sure you saw many discussions of whether soemone should be banned/suspended--but how many people actually were? Many fewer. I think it's a good sytem--we didscuss it and reach consensus. Every mod. has at some point felt distressed that the other mods. didn't agree that a certain penalty was warranted, but we go on. What system would you suggest in its place? One person makes the decision?

Being 'singled out' in the lounge as you put it (this is a hidden forum where mods. discuss matters) means we're discussing what to do about a particular matter. Isn't this a good thing? Again, what would you suggest we do instead?



> *
> I also remember reading how in the beginning some of the moderation team didn't want this to be as open a forum as it is.  I remeber reading not really wanting the kenpo peopel here or was it all other martial arts other than modern arnis.*



To the first point, yes, there were differences of opinion--this is desirable on a team, and leads to a middle-of-the-road consensus. As to the latter, I've heard it before and it's bizarre nonsense. Possibly the "all other martial arts other than modern arnis" was a joke you misconstrued since Kaith, Renegade, and myself all practice Modern Arnis. Does what you suggest here even make any sense though? It would have been easy enough to make a Modern Arnis only board--Kaith didn't want that.



> *I really like what Bob has started I just think he needs a little more evenhandedness from the rest of his administrators. *



Not to take anything away from Kaith, but I think you might be surprised by how many things you attribute to his doing were suggested/discussed/rounded-out by the rest of his team. He does a heck of a lot, but not entirely on his own.

(Again, speaking only for myself here.)


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## arnisador (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Now I know why Kaith wasn't aware of my PM's to you, politely
> asking why you locked/warned in a thread.  Ya simply lied to him.
> *



To whom is this addressed?


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## arnisador (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Cthulhu was saying that you did in fact know about the thread
> BEFORE I pointed it out to you.  You admit that*



I didn't know about the posts containing the inappropriate language. I was aware of the thread but was no longer reading it by that time. Had I been reading it and saw that language I would have at least raised the matter with the other mods. and in all likelihood I would have simply edited out the language as I felt it was a clear-cut violation of our rules.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 15, 2003)

Kirk,
  Is this the thread?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5453&highlight=shaolin

If so, it is in the MartialTalk Support Forum.


Concerning comments that were made and never replied to...
Were they made in the 'Support' forum?  Or buried in another thread?  Even if I have replied to a particular thread is no guarentee that I will get back to it in a timely manner!  

I answer 95% of my email.  If you do not get a reply, resend it and ask for confirmation.


Kirk PM and I have been going back and forth in PMs.  I don't normally do this...but..I want to address this publicly.

He stated:


> that there are no rules governing
> the slamming of others in a signature, or title, or avatar. And we
> BOTH know .. that it can get to people .. otherwise you and I
> wouldn't be PMing each other right now, would we?



From the posted rules:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=314  Link is available on the main page, and in my signature.

Avatar Policy:
1- No blatant advertising. Organization Logos are ok.
2- No Nudity 
3- No provocative (ie suggestive) images
4- No insulting, demeaning, or insensitive images.
5- No profanity 
6- Must be under 10kb in file size.

Signatures (note snipping)
· Signatures are subject to all other content restrictions.
· Signatures must be setup in your profile and not manually added to your messages.
· All signatures must be appropriate for this Forum and are subject to review by the MartialTalk Moderation Team.

We dont have a rule directly pertaining to titles, however:
*Complaint Policy: 
If you have an issue with a forum member, please either e-mail or PM a moderator so that we may take care of the problem. *




> You HAVE ignore me on the forum itself. Arnisador and Cthulu have ignored PM's ... and a decent number of them.


I can not answer for the other staff... I have not deliberately ignored anyone, no matter how much of a pain in the *** I've thought them.  I get an average of 100 emails PER day.  This board gets an average of 350+ messages PER day.  I'm also active on 3 other forums, and running a business 70+ hours a week.  If I do not answer an email or PM, PLEASE! send it again and ask for a responce.  I'm swamped, and things get pushed back due to other fires.

If you have a problem with -ANY- member of this boards staff, then contact me.  I'm not canning someone just because you dont like em, but if there is a legitimate problem, I will address it.



> EVERY attempt I've made for suggestion has gotten "yeah, I might work on that" That is NOT discussing them! Hell, I've even offered to write utilities to help you! A large part of the heated discussions that I've gotten into when I was a mod was because I cared so ******g much about this board!



I've got projects for this board going back to last June.  See the above for the detailed explaination.



> The perfect example is the RUDE RUDE RUDE RUDE "warning" I got from Arnisador in the chat channel. NO FURTHER DISCUSSION OF THE RULES HAVE HAPPENED YET OTHER ARE ALLOWED TO DISCUSS FAR FAR FAR FAR WORSE THAN ANY COMMENT I EVER MADE IN THERE!!!!
> 
> Now I ask you .. is THAT discussing anything???



This issue was addressed internally.  We are still 'feeling' out the Chat stuff, and will be refining things greatly very shortly.


I've been many things in my life.  I'ev been a Satanist, an Athiest, a Christian, A Pagan, A Democrat and a Liberal....I've never been a censor, or a Communist, and I take that shot personally.


Have we had issues with some members that crossed the line between 'personal' and 'professional'? Yes.  And, if you will remember, I have gone to bat for many of those folks, several of them who were telling me to 'piss off'.  THAT! problem is being addressed internally, and all dealings by this forums staff in the future will be professional.

Regarding Arnisador and Gou:  I believe they have worked their differences out, mostly.  I count both of them as my friend.


Regarding "I remeber reading not really wanting the kenpo peopel here or was it all other martial arts other than modern arnis."

I want to clear the air on this right now.
Without the input of the Kenpo folks, MT would be half the board it is today.  We are the largest Kenpo discussion board that I can find online, and that includes KenpoNet. My GF holds a blackbelt in Kenpo, I've got over a year in it myself, and my instructor Tim Hartman, has about 5 years Kenpo experience.  We brought in 2 Kenpoists as mods before, and have brought in another Kenpoist now.  Regardless of some previous issues, this forum in no way shape or form discriminates against Kenpoists..Bluntly put, give me another 1000 active kenpoists here, and I'll be doing cartwheels.  (Those who've seen me spar will understand)


Have we made mistakes? Yes.  But you have to give us time and -room- to make the changes.  The way things go, we are damned no matter what we do.

And...NOONE! is going to get so much as a 'boo' based on anything said in -THIS- thread.


----------



## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Kirk, I believe that you believe that if I had seen those phrases I'd have edited them out at the very least. I wasn't reading that thread. We try our best to cover this board but we can't read every post. That's why we rely on reports. When those phrases were pointed out to me, I edited them out. (Deleting posts is hard for reasons relating to how the software is set up. Editing them is much easier. I'd have simply deleted them if it wasn't more difficult to do so.) Do you really believe that I'd have let those go? Me?
> *



That was exactly my point.  You're stating exactly the point I was
trying to make.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *The warning to you was on chat and chat isn't the same as the board. I won't discuss that matter further in public unless you ask that I do so--otherwise, we respect your privacy.
> *



Yes, please do.  Seeing how nothing has been said since, and 
MUCH MUCH worse comments have been made in there, OFTEN.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Sometimes, the discussion simply must end and we must move on. The Shaolin-Do? thread you mentioned was pruned--some posts were deleted or edited--and there were complaints (see here). You can imagine my shock at learning that we couldn't please all of the people all of the time, and yet, in our opinion it had passed beyond a couple of jokes to a thread that principally made fun of a disabled person based on their disability. Since the person is long sicne deceased, we allowed a little leeway--but the dog jokes were just too much. It isn't that he could be offended, Kirk. It's because--as you say about the posts involving references to fellatio--tehre's a "broken windows" effect wherein people see that sort of thing and think it's OK here.
> *



MANY posts were deleted, and questions, and eventually PM's
in that thread went unanswered.  It wasn't the Shaolin-Do thread
I can't find the actual one now.  It started with a pic of him, I 
think.  I may be wrong though, but I do remember me asking why
they were deleted, and then the thread being locked, because of
that.  There was no "offending" posts remaining after you deleted
them all, I disagreed with your doing it, and immediately, you locked the thread.  That's why the next thread existed.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *You're arguing against yourself, Kirk. If the presence of the vulgar posts made you think that sort of thing was OK and you were upset to find that they weren't removed, how can you complain about us removing these posts to keep people from thinking that that's OK?
> *


* 

I don't see where I'm saying that I'm complaining about the posts
being edited.  I'm saying that you jumped all over me in the chat
room, when there was no set rules.  And if they're supposed to
match the forum rules, then the said posts should've been 
pounced on just as quickly.  I wish I could find the thread now,
because I'm PRETTY SURE that a post was made by a mod
after said posts were made.




Originally posted by arnisador 
We discuss these things amongst outrselves to create consitency. Often the rule is simply "not in the spirit of MartialTalk"; in other cases citing the rule might seem more accusative than we intend. Still, this is worth considering. It may be helpful to be more explicit about why we lock a given thread.


Click to expand...


Well then why not post "not in the spirit of martialtalk" ?




Originally posted by arnisador 
The mods. promise you a number of things, but an answer to every posted query isn't one of them. You'll have better luck if you PM an admin. (Kaith Rustaz, Cthulhu, or me). 


Click to expand...


Why not?  Ya had time to comment, and lock a thread, can't you
take time to comment one more time?  I've seen your "please 
keep the convo polite" comment, and someone saying "You're 
right, sorry" and you comment on THAT!  So why not the ones
where one member is insulting another?  And I've had LITTLE
luck with PM's other than the ones going to Kaith.  We're all
agreed that he works long and hard here, so why not take up
some of the slack and answer my PMs?




Originally posted by arnisador 
We don't want people taking potshots on the board. Honestly, some are too subtle for us to see. The thread that started this mentioned a dig based on suggesting someone was or wasn't a brown belt--I can't pick up on that. We deal with complaints as best we can.


Click to expand...


I can understand that, but ya can't say that you weren't made 
aware of it in that thread.  BOOM a comment basically 
saying "take it outside" came in from a mod, yet another sentence
of "we weren't aware this was going on, and it IS against the 
rules" wasn't warranted????  




Originally posted by arnisador 
We don't always make the right decisions, but given that this place loses money and costs a lot of time, don't you think that we're trying to do so?


Click to expand...


I don't need a lecture on how the board is run.  But the reasoning
behind this is that question go unanswered, and apparently it's
"None of my business".  The pot shots seem to be allowed, unless
it's against someone you like.  I've complained about pot shots
against me, via PM to you guys, and they have gone unanswered.




Originally posted by arnisador 
Well, this is just childish.

Click to expand...


You're damned right it is!  But would this thread exist without
such a POT SHOT being taken?  I think not.
It totally proves my point.  They shouldn't be allowed here.  They
can, and do hurt people.*


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Regarding Arnisador and Gou:  I believe they have worked their differences out, mostly.*



I just wish he'd just stop pawing at me like I'm an object. I have feelings you know. I'm not just an object for his lust. I have feelings!

What's a guy got to do to get a hug around here?!


----------



## Kirk (Mar 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *To whom is this addressed? *



Although I say that you have not replied to a few of my PM's
that was addressed to Cthulhu.  You, as much as I've disagreed
with things you've said or done .. have never lied to me at least.


----------



## Kirk (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Kirk,
> Is this the thread?
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5453&highlight=shaolin
> *



That thread is a result of the thread I speak of.  I go into further
detail in my reply to arnisador, but that is only part of the story.



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I answer 95% of my email.  If you do not get a reply, resend it and ask for confirmation.
> *



With *YOU* only one was unanswered, and I discussed it
with you shortly thereafter.  I told you at that time about the
PMs by Cthulhu and Arnisador that went unanswered.  None have
been ignored since, because I hadn't even bothered trying.



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *If you have a problem with -ANY- member of this boards staff, then contact me.  I'm not canning someone just because you dont like em, but if there is a legitimate problem, I will address it.
> *



I did.  Your reply was that they said nothing to you about it, and
you weren't aware of the problem.  The fact of the matter is, if
they would have answered them, then the extremity of trying to
getting some attention to the matter creating all of this wouldn't
have been necessary.



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *I've been many things in my life.  I'ev been a Satanist, an Athiest, a Christian, A Pagan, A Democrat and a Liberal....I've never been a censor, or a Communist, and I take that shot personally.*



And I sincerely apologize for having to do it, (as I stated in my PM
to you).  Yours is the first to say "hey ... we'll take action in the 
future if someone is taking pot shots".  



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Regarding Arnisador and Gou:  I believe they have worked their differences out, mostly.  I count both of them as my friend.
> *



But the fact remains, he wanted him GONE.



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *But you have to give us time and -room- to make the
> changes.  The way things go, we are damned no matter what we
> do.*



I won't argue that point with you.  But when someone uses this
board to use thier words to intentionally hurt someone else, then
it's something that's far more important than adding features or
something.  Not that that's what you're doing.  But since PM's
weren't addressed, I decided to address it in the open thread.
Then the thread was locked, and I got nothing.  I resorted to 
taking a measure in order to get attention to it.  And I intend to
change it again, once the matter is settled.  

I've PM's Cthulhu and Arnisador on the dog thread, my "war" with
satansbarber, and my problem with a signature that was a pot 
shot at me.  And those are just the ones that come to mind right
off the top of my head.  There were others.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I just wish he'd just stop pawing at me like I'm an object. I have feelings you know. I'm not just an object for his lust. I have feelings!
> 
> What's a guy got to do to get a hug around here?!
> *




One Bear Hug for Gou! 


As to the complaint issue being ignored. I have always had my complaints and issues answered.

As to concerns,  have had, them and posted some and PM'd others. Some may have already been in the works, others were discussed.

I like to think that this thread will air some concerns, and then with time I hope some good will come of all of this .

:asian:


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *One Bear Hug for Gou! *



Careful. I have pictures of you molesting my dog you know...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Careful. I have pictures of you molesting my dog you know...
> *



I still think it was Sampson who was attacking me!  
:rofl:


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

Lies!
All lies!










...can I highjack a thread or what?
:shrug:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Lies!
> All lies!
> 
> ...



Do you think we have abused, the no touch policy of this thread set up by Kaith?

Things that make you go HMMMM? 

:asian: * To Gou Ronin


----------



## arnisador (Mar 16, 2003)

I believe I have answered all my PMs. Sometimes I get double-digits of them per day and it's possible I miss some--I know this has happened to me in e-mail, though I don't know of any Martialtalk-related e-mail I've missed. I try to be careful but due to work I sometimes must compartmentalize when I work on what, and when I do that it's possible I miss something. Please, resend if I don't respond.

As to the chat: You were gently warned for a previous comment, by me and by another mod. who was present. You continued along the same lines. Three mods. were present by that time. After consultation by private chat with one of the other mods. present it was agreed that you went too far and I'd send a warning. (I believe the other mod. present came independently to the same conclusion, but my memory may be incorrect on this point.) I sent the warning. Here it is from the logs (where I've edited in {NAME} in place of the name of a MartialTalk member as it isn't clear to me that she cares to be drawn into this):



> 22:31:18 [arnisador]>[kenpo_kirk] Kirk, this is too far: "see how much {NAME} was talking, when I was moisturizing her tatas?"
> 
> 22:31:27 [arnisador]>[kenpo_kirk] This is a warning.
> 
> ...



The notation makes it clear that this warning was sent by PM, so only you and I saw it; no one else who was present would have seen it. The quoted material I repeated to you was a cut-and-paste of your sentence.

We are still finding our way on chat. But as you were advised earlier that:



> 22:03:07 [kenpo_kirk] * kenpo_kirk opens up {NAME}'s gi, puts hot oil all over her and starts rubbing it in. he looks at the mods and says, "Can I do THIS?!?"



...was too far, I am not sure why you were offended by the later private warning. I really don't understand this.

The pictures and comments were indeed deleted from the Shaolin Do? thread--we still have them in storage. (Mods. can find them here but others won't be able to view them.) I see three posts by you in there. The number of deleted posts is 13 in total.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Do you think we have abused, the no touch policy of this thread set up by Kaith?*



It's too late now! Forget it! It's *"Chinatown!"*

:redeme:


----------



## Kirk (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I believe I have answered all my PMs. Sometimes I get double-digits of them per day and it's possible I miss some--I know this has happened to me in e-mail, though I don't know of any Martialtalk-related e-mail I've missed. I try to be careful but due to work I sometimes must compartmentalize when I work on what, and when I do that it's possible I miss something. Please, resend if I don't respond.
> 
> As to the chat: You were gently warned for a previous comment, by me and by another mod. who was present. You continued along the same lines. Three mods. were present by that time. After consultation by private chat with one of the other mods. present it was agreed that you went too far and I'd send a warning. (I believe the other mod. present came independently to the same conclusion, but my memory may be incorrect on this point.) I sent the warning. Here it is from the logs (where I've edited in {NAME} in place of the name of a MartialTalk member as it isn't clear to me that she cares to be drawn into this):
> ...



If that's what you believe, then fine.  I posted on THE "offensive
thread" asking what was so wrong with what was posted, and
YOU locked the thread.   It's open now, and no post where it
says that the thread was locked.  I KNOW that's what happened.
Why else would the other thread discussing it exist?

What you post is true.  The problem I have and still have with it
are  1) far worse exist on this board, and 2) far worse went on,
and is STILL going on in the chat.  

IMO I also feel that it's too G rated.  I have no problems with the
subject matter, or comments made .. I do have a problem with
the lack of consistency.  {name} was all talkative, until I was
put on a leash.  No kids were in the chat at the time.  I'd met
{name} at the Huk seminar, and based an opinion on what she'd
find funny judging from my personal impression of her, and her
posts.  {name} didn't say much after that, did she?

The underlying theme is consistency.  I don't enjoy getting 
warned when others say far worse.  And I don't enjoy getting
pot shots taken at me, or my friends, while you're not allowing
others.  I've said it like 10 times in this thread and in PM's.  The
whole reason this thread exists is because I took a pot shot at
all of you.  YOU didn't like it, Cthulhu didn't like it, Kaith didn't
like it.  Yet my question regarding it went unanswered, and any
comments about it didn't exist.  If you feel that they should go
unaddressed .. then simply say so!  When it was stated in the
forum .. a mod ONLY said "take it elsewhere" or somethign to that
effect.   When THIS FORUM was used as the vehicle for the 
attack?   Do you feel that's right?


----------



## RCastillo (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Its been brought to my attention that a few folks have problems with the way we run MartialTalk.
> 
> We've been called 'censors', 'nazis', 'facists' and 'communists'.  We've been told we take too long to stop a flame, or jump in too early. I've been told we ignore complaints. It was mentioned that we are 'biased' in how we moderate, going 'easy' on some, and 'hard' on others. That we 'lock threads for no reason other than to stifle discussion'.
> ...



Uhhhhhhh, I thought you were on vacation?  

Time to call the "Hit Squad" from Buffalo!

I got nothing bad to say, I don't wanna be evicted, I like it here. It's rent free!


----------



## RCastillo (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I just wish he'd just stop pawing at me like I'm an object. I have feelings you know. I'm not just an object for his lust. I have feelings!
> 
> What's a guy got to do to get a hug around here?!
> *



I'm sorry, Lord Ronin, I broke it off with you a long time ago, and now you want a hug?


----------



## Zepp (Mar 16, 2003)

To Kaith and all the Mods,

Just thought I'd let you guys know that I have no complaints at all about how you guys run the board.  I've seen plenty of other forums that were run horribly (not all dealing with martial arts), either because the moderators were asleep at the wheel, or because they really were chat nazis.  I think you guys have a good balance here.

If I did have a particular complaint, rest assured, you would hear from me.  I think any major changes in the way this board was run might make me complain.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *
> What you post is true.  The problem I have and still have with it
> are  1) far worse exist on this board, and 2) far worse went on,
> ...




HMMM,


Chat is NEW!

Currently Kaith, Arnisador, and Myself (* Rich in Chat *) are looking for more good people to be Chat Mods (* if tehre are moe I am not aware of hem as of yet *) . As of right now, the rules are kind of loose yet being polite is the main rule.

I apologize for any inconsistent actions in the Chat room while I am there. I am still feeling it out. I am trying to not act like the Chat Nazi and have it all my way etc., ..., .

Please PM me or other Mods with your chat concerns or issues.

:asian:


----------



## Kirk (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *HMMM,
> 
> 
> ...



PM is fine and dandy, but it doesn't allow for consistancy.  I know
a thread exists for the discussion of that, but there should be 
some rules for us to follow, or no warnings.  if the rules there,
are the same as here, then making it an even slate should be
a goal.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 16, 2003)

short msg here...I'm too tired to go in detail....

G-Rated - we're more PG.  In -my- opinion, alot of comments (mostly on the humor side) have crossed into more of an R rating.  I dont have a -personal- problem with them (Hell, I got alot worse on my other forum) , but not here, in public.  We have several members under the age of 15...including at least 2 12 year olds.  Many of you are parents...take a step back and answer this one honestly - Do you want your kid reading MartialTalk?

'Missing' Posts. - Folks...I dont know the time frame for some things, but please remember, we have had a few technical hiccups, most recently back in December where I believe we lost over a weeks posts.  Theres alot more to that story than we've let on. It aint pretty, and a few folks know what really happened.  Well, enough: We got attacked.  Not MartialTalk, my entire business.  Over 100+ websites were blown to hell, including tape backups. MartialTalk's offsite backup was about a week old...thats why we only lost a week.  My other forum was 100% lost.  ****, I almost lost my whole business.  I went for almost 3 days without sleep trying to get things back up.  I almost didn't put MT back up.

Some people think this is so easy.

Running this site has cost me quality time with my friends, my girlfriend, my family.  Its taken -serious- time away from my business, my training, hell, even time I could be using to read a book!  Money spent on keeping this site running could fund a hell of a nice week long vacation...

Tell me again why I put myself thru all this grief?

Heres a link : http://vbulletin.com  go there, buy the software, find a host and put your board up.  Now...go learn some basic programming skills so you can install the 50+ modifications we've got running here.  Oh wait, they upgraded. Ok, uninstall all the mods, upgrade software, reinstall mods, then, debug!  Well, there went your weekend.  Oh ****! they patched the upgrade...there goes wed and thurday.  ok, everythings stable...time to check the competition n see whats cool there, n check to see what other new toys we can add...Ah, a cool one...lets install...no good, the makes everything crash...time to back it out...ok, everythings fixed, oh crap!  internet brownout, cant reach the server to put the file up!  Race for a work around cuz times ticking and the boards offline.  Yup, ICQ lighting up with the "is the site down" msgs.  Yup, phones ringing off the hook "whats borked bob?"  up, email too....christ,, I got a meeting with a client in 6 hours...I need sleep....but the boards down.....ahh, finally, get the file in, grab a 2 hr nap, race to a meeting, race back, oh joy, its an email 'fix the ****** board asswipe'.  Someone shoot me.

Yeah...this is easy... Just like getting a black belt is easy.
Go look at the other boards that are either so anal they want 'real names only', every T dotted and every I crossed.  Go look at the other ones that are so laid back that some 'LEET DUDE' is the 'power user'.  Or so dead that they only get 1 new post a day.

I do this because you folks enjoy this board.  I do it for the personal satisfaction of seeing ones creation exceed ones expectations.  Martialtalk is a community.  One that I'm very proud of.  1 that I'm happy to put in my time, blood, sweat and tears to make sure it is -the- best out there.  I sure as hell aint doing it for the relaxation and positive cash flow.  I'd make more money selling ice to escimos.

Heres something we can do...charge admission.  $5/person/year.
I'd get $50 and a dead board.  We can lock off an area thats 'opt-in' for the 'adult' stuff. But, I need some reliable way to verify those asking for admission are adults...not kids lying about their ages.  (Quick, without cutting him in half, someone tell me how old JudoKid is?..are you sure?  Show me proof.  Ya can't?  Well, neither can I.)


Regarding content not specificly covered in the rules, the main rule is in effect: If its against the overall spirit of this site, its against the rules.  Do we have to have a 40 page lawbook covering every possible issue?  I tried to keep them simple, and we've gone 3-9 pages deep I think at this point....how many folks have read -all- of them?


You have issues? Fine.  Someone start a 'Suggestion Box' thread in the 'Support Forum' and start posting 'improvement' ideas there.  1 central location where we can provide checks and balances to each other.  I get busy, threads get buried, stuff gets forgotten.  Help me to help you.


Now...I'm gonna get some sleep....


----------



## Rich Parsons (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *PM is fine and dandy, but it doesn't allow for consistancy.  I know
> a thread exists for the discussion of that, but there should be
> some rules for us to follow, or no warnings.  if the rules there,
> ...



Well what I meant was that you suggestions could be PM'd to me and others, so we could discuss it.

Or post it here for discussion, I just offered the PM so if someone wanted to remain behind the scenes and still input they could.
:asian:


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Mar 16, 2003)

Ahh, enough, you guyz do a good job, much better than some of the other crappy Martial Arts NG sites out here on the 'net. That's why I keep coming back. :asian: 

If I kiss your *** some more will that give me a free pass from getting suspended or banned...


----------



## chufeng (Mar 16, 2003)

I've posted two R rated jokes...Sorry!
But they DARED me...

I'll try and keep future posts at the eighth grade level.

BTW, overall, you guys do a very good job...
The few times I questioned decisions made, I chalked it up to, "I don't have all of the facts."

But, I still think that a biased decision was made regarding RSK and the "worm."

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Kirk (Mar 16, 2003)

consistency! consistency! consistency 


My last attempt at communicating it.  I'm done with this thread.
My point goes either ignored, or not stated well enough.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What you post is true.  The problem I have and still have with it
> are  1) far worse exist on this board, and 2) far worse went on,
> and is STILL going on in the chat. *



We strive for consistency, but it isn't always going to happen. We'd like to have it but we're only human. Suggestions as to how to achieve greater consitency would be more helpful than assertions that it's desirable--coming out in favor of consistency is like coming out against crime. How about some ideas?



> *
> IMO I also feel that it's too G rated.  I have no problems with the
> subject matter, or comments made .. I do have a problem with
> the lack of consistency.  {name} was all talkative, until I was
> ...



As to the rating for chat, we are still feeling our way. Chat is a different medium--more ephemeral and more spontaneous--and we expect it'll be looser in chat. As to whether kids were present--and there have been minors on our chat board frequently, though I don't believe any were present at the time--and the consensual nature of the discussion, I still feel you're contradicting yourself: Surely no one in the thread that contained the references to fellatio were offended by the language. Yet, you seem to feel it either justifies your use of comparable language elsewhere, or that it's otherwise in need of being handled for consistency's sake. It's the same argument: People will see what you're saying, not realize that you know the other person, and think that that's OK for chat. Remember also, the transcripts are there for 12 hours, and the /last n command repeats the last n lines for people to read. We simply don't want that kind of atmosphere.



> *When it was stated in the
> forum .. a mod ONLY said "take it elsewhere" or somethign to that
> effect.   When THIS FORUM was used as the vehicle for the
> attack?   Do you feel that's right? *



Yes. It doesn't matter who started what--MartialTalk is not Iraq, and one can't simply start a war here whenever one wants to. If someone starts something here, that's bad. But it doesn't create a right for anyone else to finish it here. We just don't want it here. Please continue to report problems of this sort to us. We'll continue to try to handle them.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 16, 2003)

I'll be upfront...there are valid claims in there...

I've never denied that..

What I'm asking for is patience while we work to resolve the problems.  Things can't change overnight.  We have addapted internal policies to hopefully combat any bias' that may exist. We have improved out own lines of communication so that we dont have to wait 3 days for everyone to log on. etc.  We will be bringing on board additional staff to help keep things running smoothly. We are adding in more features as well.

I am dedicated to constant improvement of this site.  But I need everyones help to do it.  I can't work in a vaccume.

If 1 person tells me I'm FOS, I figure, 'eh, its their opinion'.
If 20 do, well, I figure they may be onto something.

The reason why this forum got as far as it has if because of the feedback from its members.  Keep the feedback coming.  If we don't know theres a problem or a need, we don't have any way to work on it.  We aint going to make everyone happy, but I'll try for a high majority.



heh..free pass....cali you're too funny.


----------



## arnisador (Mar 16, 2003)

*Kirk*, I missed the post where you apologized to Kaith for being 100% wrong for haranguing him about this: 



> there are no rules governing the slamming of others in a signature, or title, or avatar



Could you point it out to me?


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *I'm sorry, Lord Ronin, I broke it off with you a long time ago, and now you want a hug? *



Indian giver!
:cuss:


----------



## Master of Blades (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Lies!
> All lies!
> 
> ...



Your still not quite as good as me :asian:


----------



## Master of Blades (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cali_tkdbruin _
> *
> If I kiss your *** some more will that give me a free pass from getting suspended or banned...   *



Hey if he gets one I want one!!!!


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Your still not quite as good as me :asian: *




Anything you can do I can do better...

...yes I can...


----------



## Master of Blades (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Anything you can do I can do better...
> 
> ...yes I can... *



Nah, trust me, none of my threads or any thread I'm part of stays on track for long


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

...yes I can...


----------



## Master of Blades (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *...yes I can... *



Stop singing to yourself.....And to be honest I only hijack threads that I feel are going no where or if the mood needs lightening. Otherwise I let things run smoothly :rofl:


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *And to be honest I only hijack threads that I feel are going no where or if the mood needs lightening. Otherwise I let things run smoothly *



It's too late now for that! *"It's ChinaTown!"*

:redeme:


----------



## Master of Blades (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *It's too late now for that! "It's ChinaTown!"
> 
> :redeme: *



Is that your new saying or something?


----------



## Jill666 (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *I've posted two R rated jokes...Sorry!
> But they DARED me...
> :asian:
> chufeng *



Quite true. 

I will also keep the rating down a bit- now I'm comfortable w/ PM.

:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth (Mar 16, 2003)

I have 0 problems guys! :asian:


----------



## RCastillo (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *I have 0 problems guys! :asian: *



NO, you have one, ME!


----------



## jfarnsworth (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *NO, you have one, ME! *



Yes I see, now. I really wish I can see your face when you get to view "THE" picture (only you will know when you see "the" picture).


----------



## RCastillo (Mar 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Yes I see, now. I really wish I can see your face when you get to view "THE" picture (only you will know when you see "the" picture). *



Yes, and I have a nice looking face. Just ask the Dragon!


----------



## Seig (Mar 17, 2003)

Kaith et al.,
    As a general rule I do not have a problem with the Mod *TEAM*.  I do however, have a problem with a couple of the Mods.  I will be happy to discuss my feeling with you as long as they remain private.


----------



## Cruentus (Mar 17, 2003)

(disclaimer: the "you" in my post is directed to MEMBERS in general)

Couple of short things to remember:

1. Mods are people too. They have emotions, desires, likes, dislikes, etc. What little quirk sets one Mod off, might not phase another.

2. Consistancy? You want consistancy, go join a commune, hippie. It just ain't going to happend, anywhere. No set of rules is ever perfectly abided by, or enforced. The "consistancy" of enforcement of rules also is effected extrememly by the fact that the Mods. aren't making the big $$$, and don't do this full time.

3. YOU (as a non-mod.) don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and neither do I. One thread that crosses the line might go untouched by the mods because no one complains about it. Another might get warnings even if it seems that the line was "barely" crossed; but what you don't see is the mods might have gotten a complaint or two or three, which caused the warning. You just don't know, but the "unknown" has to be taken into account.

Basically, any "inconsistancies" are probably due to one of the above things listed. Yet, despite these factors, I think that that you'll only be able to find a small handful of posts where things could be argued to be "inconsistant" out of the thousands of posts and threads on this forum, where things where handled just fine. Considering this, I think that the Moderators are doing a wonderful job.

Guess what, I have been "edited" just recently where I felt it might of not been completely necissary. Well, boo-hoo. So friggin' what! I'm not goin to sit here and b**ch about it like a sissy. I wouldn't even be mentioning it if it wasn't for the sake of this example. I just respected the authority and responsability that the Mods have undertaken, and I moved on with my life. No harm really done. When people get there tighty-******'s in a bunch over stuff like this, I think that they are making more out of an issue then they should.

Point it, the mods here are extrememly lienient and fair. Most likely you won't have ANY problems. But, so what if your warned, sensored, edited, or locked, and you don't "fully agree"? Just take your medacine and move foward, and don't be such a damn sissy! Use a different word, or sensor yourself, or simply log off for awhile and calm down. It's only an internet forum, for cryin' out loud! Given the honest attempt to be fair by the mods here, I think that as members we should be willing to compromise more often, even if we don't agree with an action.

Now, if there is an honest problem, I can understand talking to the mods regarding the issue. Usually, though, there isn't an honest problem, YOUR just being a cry baby, and that is the real problem.

So, shape up, as they say, and if you don't like the rules, or if you can't stand being corrected or "warned", or if you simply can't behave yourself, then (as they also say) ship yo @$$ out!

Thank you,
PAUL

:bird:


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *2. Consistancy? You want consistancy, go join a commune, hippie.
> :bird: *



D@mn it Paul! Stop that! You made me think of Eric Cartman when you said that and I spit my milk all over the keyboard.

I have to ask you to refrain from making me laugh while drinking.


----------



## Cruentus (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *D@mn it Paul! Stop that! You made me think of Eric Cartman when you said that and I spit my milk all over the keyboard.
> 
> I have to ask you to refrain from making me laugh while drinking. *



Glad I could return the favor from all the times you made me laugh and spit Guinness out my nose all over my keyboard.


----------



## Kirk (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *(disclaimer: the "you" in my post is directed to MEMBERS in general)
> 
> Couple of short things to remember:
> ...



Pretty good job of kissin' ***.



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *2. Consistancy? You want consistancy, go join a commune, hippie. It just ain't going to happend, anywhere. No set of rules is ever perfectly abided by, or enforced. The "consistancy" of enforcement of rules also is effected extrememly by the fact that the Mods. aren't making the big $$$, and don't do this full time.
> *



More butt kissin.  But I am no hippie.  You don't know me, and
don't know what went on in the past.   But do tell oh wise one,
how does the fact that they make no money here effect the
consistency?



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *3. YOU (as a non-mod.) don't know what goes on behind the scenes, and neither do I. One thread that crosses the line might go untouched by the mods because no one complains about it. Another might get warnings even if it seems that the line was "barely" crossed; but what you don't see is the mods might have gotten a complaint or two or three, which caused the warning. You just don't know, but the "unknown" has to be taken into account.
> *



I was a mod here, so I know a hell of a lot more than you do 
about this.  In the 6 months that I was a mod, there were maybe
a total of 5 complaints about posts.  Out of how many 
HUNDREDS?!  But there were LOADS of warnings and quite a few
thread locks.  How much do YOU know?  You're totally making 
assumptions here in your attempt to suck up and making yourself
look stupid.  Look who started this thread off initially.  I was 
content with taking it to PM, I didn't start this thread, A MOD DID!



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Basically, any "inconsistancies" are probably due to one of the above things listed. Yet, despite these factors, I think that that you'll only be able to find a small handful of posts where things could be argued to be "inconsistant" out of the thousands of posts and threads on this forum, where things where handled just fine. Considering this, I think that the Moderators are doing a wonderful job.
> *



Again, posting on something you know nothing about.  If you 
even read this complete thread, you'd see that The Admins were
upset about ONE SINGLE SOLITARY SIGNATURE FILE .. which 
proved the point that words can sting others, and that this board
shouldn't be a medium for that.  But I'm sure you're gonna come
back with "well golly gee willikers, if the mods think that it's okay,
then they're absolutely right".  



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Guess what, I have been "edited" just recently where I felt it might of not been completely necissary. Well, boo-hoo. So friggin' what! I'm not goin to sit here and b**ch about it like a sissy. I wouldn't even be mentioning it if it wasn't for the sake of this example. I just respected the authority and responsability that the Mods have undertaken, and I moved on with my life. No harm really done. When people get there tighty-******'s in a bunch over stuff like this, I think that they are making more out of an issue then they should.
> *



You're bitchin' about it now dorko!  All hail Paul, prince of irony!!!
Again ... why don't YOU tell me where my actual complaints were?
How 'bout a quote?  You have nothing, and are therefore talking
out of your ***.  You know nothing about it, yet feel you have to
seize the opportunity to suck some butt.  What is it that you're
looking for?  Wanna be a mod?  Ever try just asking?



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *
> Point it, the mods here are extrememly lienient and fair. Most likely you won't have ANY problems. But, so what if your warned, sensored, edited, or locked, and you don't "fully agree"? Just take your medacine and move foward, and don't be such a damn sissy! Use a different word, or sensor yourself, or simply log off for awhile and calm down. It's only an internet forum, for cryin' out loud! Given the honest attempt to be fair by the mods here, I think that as members we should be willing to compromise more often, even if we don't agree with an action.
> *



Fair = consistancy.  That's all.  The mods said they wanted feed
back, and when I gave it, or tried to discuss I feel it ended up
on "deaf ears".  So I made a point in a dramatic way.  This was
SOOOOOOOOOO not about using a different word!    
And it's not about ONE occurance.  If you'd have read this entire
thread, you'd have realized that (given that you have a normal
amount of literacy, which the way you sling out insults, I think 
you do).  



> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *So, shape up, as they say, and if you don't like the rules, or if you can't stand being corrected or "warned", or if you simply can't behave yourself, then (as they also say) ship yo @$$ out!
> *



Fine .. start a poll .. if that's the consensus of this board, I'll be 
more than happy to step aside and never return.  I do however
suggest you KNOW what YOU'RE talking about before you post
such a passionate, insulting message.  Or next time just start a
thread on how wonderful the mods are.


----------



## Cruentus (Mar 17, 2003)

Well Kirk,

I didn't mention your name in my post, but if the shoe fits, wear it.

I'm not kissing anyones @$$ either Kirk, I'm just stating my opinions. I haven't overstepped my boundries, or stated anything beyond the scope of my knowledge. I don't need to go "point by point" with you post, either, because your message is clear. When you don't get your way, you cry like a child.:wah:  

The mods have done some things that you disagree with, so you cry about it. Although you try to pretend like you are the all-knowing former mod, you have been clearly wrong even here on this thread. Yet, instead of admitting fault, you cry some more. Then, I posted opinions that you  disagree with (which weren't really specifically directed towards you) and you cried even more, and resorted to personally attacking me. 

Your message is very clear, and so is mine. Suck it up and be a man, Kirk.


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 17, 2003)

1) The _"I'm leaving"_ thing. Um...you kinda do this a lot. Usually when you're mad and then you sheepishly come back saying you're sorry. People accept it and welcome u back. I think you're a bit mad now and want people to see your opinion and running on an emotional surge about this. People just might  not agree with you on this though. Maybe take a few minutes and just think about what you're saying.

But I could be wrong.

Also, on Paul making himself look stupid. Well, he is funny looking, but he's just stating his point. Take this in the idea of just an outside observer. They method you are using to state your position isn't helping you look much better. It's making you look kinda childish and _"i'm right and if you don't like it I will take my ball and go home."_ which I don't think you intend to come across like.

You have said that sometimes what you type doesn't come across as you intend on the net and I think this is one of those time.

Just trying to give you a heads up before you get deep into something that you are not sure how you got into.
:cheers:

P.S. - *It's CHINA TOWN!*

:redeme:


----------



## Kirk (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *1) The "I'm leaving" thing. Um...you kinda do this a lot. Usually when you're mad and then you sheepishly come back saying you're sorry. People accept it and welcome u back. I think you're a bit mad now and want people to see your opinion and running on an emotional surge about this. People just might  not agree with you on this though. Maybe take a few minutes and just think about what you're saying.
> 
> But I could be wrong.
> ...



I know you're just lookin' out for me here, but I didn't say "fine, 
I'm leaving.  I said if the majority of the members here, want me
gone, then I'll go .. quietly.  

Also, if you search, I did the "fine, I'm leaving" thing ONE time.  It
was when I decided I'd leave forums altogether, so there was a
post here, and on kenponet about it.  That's it.  Never more than
the one time.

And the manner in which I'm stating my opinions is the result of
other failed .. _private_ attempts.  No one just reading the
"public" stuff knows how many.

You may see it as me "attacking" Paul, I see it as retaliating.  
Insult made were "hippie" "sissy" and "cry baby".  To say it wasn't
addressed to me personally, shows yet again, that he didn't read
this post and had no idea what he was talking about.   Who else
said they had a problem, but myself and Seig?  Who the hell else
could it have been adressing?

This thread exists because I took a shot at the staff.  ONE tiny lil
itty bitty sentence, that hurt thier feelings.  In the past, when I
tried to discuss things, I felt I got no reply.  I don't feel that sigs
and titles should be used for this purpose.  I did resort to extreme
measures to make my point, but only after previous attempts 
didn't even get a "if you dont like it leave" statement.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 17, 2003)

Just a few bits:

*I was content with taking it to PM, I didn't start this thread, A MOD DID!*
I was too, however, you brought up some good points that I felt needed a public addressing.  I wanted all the cards on the table so we can move forward towards fixing things, and I think we're doing that.

*"you'd see that The Admins were
upset about ONE SINGLE SOLITARY SIGNATURE FILE "*  No.  There were other things too, that was however the one that put me over the edge.

*"how does the fact that they make no money here effect the
consistency?" *The staff (including me) is all volentier.  A few paid moderators could devote more serious time focusing exclusivly on things, rather than working it in around 'real life'.  That -might- make things more consistant.

*"1. Mods are people too. They have emotions, desires, likes, dislikes, etc. What little quirk sets one Mod off, might not phase another."*  This is true.  Have a bad day at the office?  A minor slight one day seems worse then.  We're only human.

*Wanna be a mod? Ever try just asking?* I think Kirk and Rob will both agree, being a mod on an active forum can be a royal pain in the ***.  Burn out is high, as is the stress level.

*Problems with a moderator?* This is an open invitation.  PM or Email me your voice phone number and a good time to call you.  IF you are in the US or Canada I will be more than happy to call you voice to discuss your concerns privately.  (Sorry, I can't afford international charges now, but feel free to email me and it will also remain private)

*Behind the scenes stuff* We maintain a couple of private forums for administration. 1 for forum mods, 1 for admins and 1 for chat mods (as well as a few others for tossed threads, special projects, and reference material). 

*Past issues* We are commited to activly improving how we do things.  Kirk and Rob both have commented that we would 'talk' an issue to death before doing anything.  Its also been mentioned that we 'jump the gun' at times. We are putting new procedures into place that will hopefully smooth things out in the long run.  For example, Moderators are now under instruction that if they are 'involved' in a situation, that they are to go hands off, and let a cooler less biased mod deal with it...that includes me.  

I do anticipate some growing pains as we do this though.  Have a little patience and give us feed back on how we are doing.  Without it, we function in the dark.  

*Balance of arts on the moderation team*. I do FMA.  So do the majority of our moderators. While I would love to have a very diverse background team, it hasn't worked out quite that way.  

*Whats it take to be a moderator here?*
When -I- look at potential moderators, I look for a number of things:
- Are they cool under pressure?
- Are they non-political?
- How long have they been here?
- How have they contributed to MartialTalk?
- Do they have any mod experience?
- Whats their background?

There are people here I would love to have as a mod.  They post tons of great info, often go out of their way to help, etc.  But they end up in huge flame wars, or lost in vendettas, or have a history with enough folks, or are too 'politically involved' with their own organizations, or a dozen other reasons.  DC offered a while back to help out.  I had to turn him down as he's the head of an organization.  But Tim Hartmans an org. head and hes a mod, you  say.  Tim is a special case.  Tim helped me setup and is a major promoter of martialTalk.  That said, he has never been an very active moderator, and is now in an advisory position here.  Would I accept someone from a Modern Arnis organization outside the WMAA as a mod? Sure. If they can contribute to the forum and behave in a professional and polite manner.

To answer the unasked question : Why no kenpo mods since kenpo is a very important part of martialtalk?
answer - we had 2, but we parted ways.  We now have 1 who has shown herself to be cool under fire.  I'd like to have at least 3 mods with a kenpo background. 

You want to be a mod?  Think you can handle the stress?  Let me know.  But, one thing to remember - we expect you to 'get outside the box' of your own art.  We have dozens of forums here that need attention. If youre willing to take on the job, let me know you might be interested.  We will give anyone a fair chance at it, provided they fit our requirements.  There are many things you can do to improve your chances:
- help keep threads on topic
- stay out of flame wars
- keep cool under fire
- add good content to the forum, not just 'me too' posts.
- keep us informed of 'problems' by PM or using the 'report to mod' function.
- help out newbies
- be on often and be active while on.

We cant make everyone a mod, and a moderator position isn't a 'prize' or 'reward'.  Its an often times thankless job thats full of stress and headaches.  But the reward is a better forum community for all of us.

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Mar 17, 2003)

Note: my 1st post was directed towards any and all people who whine when they do not get their way in regards to a Mod decision. It wasn't directed towards people who simply "disagree" with the Mods. There were plenty of people on the thread Regarding RyuShiKan who did not agree with the mods, but they were able to talk about it like adults. They made their points, and accepted the decisions by the Mods even if they didn't agree. These people don't fit my "insults."

There are others who posted on that thread who do fit my "insults." My intention in posting it in the first place wasn't to name names, but to get people to think. I didn't even require a response.

You, however, decided to make this personal. That is fine. So guess what; since you seem to want to fit every description of my original post, consider it addressed directly to you. You want to get personal....just remember that your the @$$ whole who started it through your inability to be rational, and execute self control when you are upset.

I'm sorry that your such a whining moron. Your family must be proud. 

Now....if I were you....I would back out now before it gets        ugly(ier); we can both apoligize and squash the whole thing. That will take some initiative on your part, however.


----------



## fist of fury (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> I'm sorry that your such a whining moron. Your family must be proud.
> 
> Now....if I were you....I would back out now before it gets        ugly(ier); we can both apoligize and squash the whole thing. That will take some initiative on your part, however. [/B]



No reason to bring his family into it.  :cuss:


----------



## Kirk (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Note: my 1st post was directed towards any and all people who whine when they do not get their way in regards to a Mod decision. It wasn't directed towards people who simply "disagree" with the Mods. There were plenty of people on the thread Regarding RyuShiKan who did not agree with the mods, but they were able to talk about it like adults. They made their points, and accepted the decisions by the Mods even if they didn't agree. These people don't fit my "insults."
> 
> There are others who posted on that thread who do fit my "insults." My intention in posting it in the first place wasn't to name names, but to get people to think. I didn't even require a response.
> ...



You started out with insuts, and kept them going till the end, 
kudos to you.

Whatever dude.  I rarely ever saw the need to post a reply to
your posts in the past, and I doubt I will in the future.  You go 
your way, I'll go mine.  

Threats don't scare me.


----------



## Cruentus (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *You started out with insuts, and kept them going till the end,
> kudos to you.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the Kudos; I can always keep a trend going. Shizzzz, wanna guess how long it took me to stop tight rolling my jeans? You don't want to know. Also, I'm glad your not scared of threats; you wouldn't be as much fun if you were.

I'm satisfied with us going seperate ways. Hopefully we'll better communicate in the future if we cross paths, minus the insults.

In all seriousness, Happy St. Patties Day

  :cheers:


----------



## cali_tkdbruin (Mar 17, 2003)

From Rodney King:

"Can't we all just get along?"


----------



## Michael Billings (Mar 17, 2003)

... you all know I enjoy this forum a lot more than others.  I have publically stated it here and on other forums.  I don't mind the moderation, in fact I prefer it.  

As a rule, I don't ever like Big Brother looking over my shoulder, but at the same time it has enabled MartialTalk to be a place where a lot more of the type of info I want can be shared.  These are usually not the topics which heat up.  Look at the history of the ones that do.  You are often dealing with "hot" topics already.  It is easy for the conversation to devolve into a flame war when strong feelings or issues are already the topic.  None-the-less, how many flame wars are there?  Da*n Few!

Kirk, what can I say?  You have strong opinions and are ready to assert them.  This ain't a bad thing, but it will lead to toes being stepped on.  So what?  We can all handle that.  Others are in the same boat, and it still floats.

Now if it is a Mod, it is a different thing.  Mods and Admins have to be consistant within themselves.  I did not know how it worked and am glad to get the info.  Because if, in all cases, warnings or thread locks are decided on by concesus, then there is a nice checks and balances system built in.  It should help ensure Mods don't not get too personal and lead to an abuse of the power.  It can happen, apologize, deal with it in Mod or Admin chatroom, but get back with the affected party and let them know there has been consideration of whatever the complaint was.  If you leave it hanging, then the feelings build up and are just waiting for "the next time."  It is the "getting back with them" thing that is important.  If it is a specific complaint about a Mod, then an Admin should get back,  if it is about an Admin, then Kaith should handle it.  If it is about him .. I guess you can bring it up with him, and if not happy with the answer, either gut it up and move on, or leave the forum.  It is his ... but he has made it the members for the most part.  

It looks like if there is too long a delay in a moderator jumping on a problem, that the thread can get too far along fora minimal warning is enough.  More Mods, sounds like a good plan to me.  More Kenpo Guys as MODS!!!  I'll vote for that!  Kaith, I am glad to know you keep the Association heads out.  I was not sure as to the rationale for not having DC as a Mod but your reasoning is good.  I still think he would be fine but your choice.

Overall KUDO's Kaith ... and I ain't got no reason to kiss up.  In fact, I want to hang with Kirk next seminar we do together.  I know I used to like to argue more than I do now.  I guess I see too much of it day to day ...  Maybe it is an age thing, and I am getting old.  

I really like the idea of a suggestion box thread.  One of my personal pet peeves is "don't complain if you are not willing to be part of the solution", or at least offer suggestions instead of just criticizing.  This offers a nice format for that.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I know you're just lookin' out for me here*



Actually, just tossing in an opinion for you to chew on and hopefully make you think a moment before continuing.
 

Doesn't matter to me because...

*...FORGET IT! IT'S CHINATOWN!*

:redeme:


----------



## Cruentus (Mar 17, 2003)

I think you mean Bagdad, not Chinatown, unfortunatily...


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 17, 2003)

C'mon...you have to remember...

*"Forget it! It's CHINATOWN!"*

:redeme: 

Oh some days I feel so alone...

:waah:


----------



## arnisador (Mar 17, 2003)

Three of the last four mods. we've brought on have been kenpoka (*Kirk*, *Rob_Broad*, and *nightingale8472*; the fourth recent mod. is *tshadowchaser*).

If we have association heads as mods. it runs the risk of making it look like we endorse a certain organization. (In addition, we'd really rather have particularly knowledgeable members like Mr. Conatser posting about their arts, not scanning another art's forum monitoring wayward threads!) Mr. Hartman was an exception because he helped Mr. Hubbard build the board.  We are concerned about being seen as being associated with a particular art or association. For obvious reasons some have viewed us as being FMA-oriented but that is not our intention. We want to be as inclusive as possible! (Note, Cthulhu was a Okinawa-te practitioner when he joined who has since become a FMA practitioner.) We _are_ heavy in FMA-mods. and we'd like to get a more diverse mod. group for any number of reasons, but it isn't necessarily easy. We're trying!

We're trying to imrpove the rapidity of response because we know we _have_ talked some issues to death internally. (Sometimes the problems solve themselves which is good!) We know what many of the problems are and are working on them, but input is always helpful.

*Kirk* mentioned that he saw relatively few complaints. Some people use the Report feature which notifies all mods. However, many people will report a post or thread by PM to Kaith or me because of our visibility or a desire to keep things lower-key. We prefer the Report to Mod. feature but contacting a single mod. is always OK. Complaints about mods. should indeed be sent to an admin. (we have an admin.-only area) and complaints about an admin. can be sent to Mr. Hubbard. Complaints about Mr. Hubbard may be sent to him or if it's a sensitive matter contact Cthulhu or me and we will approach him about it if you prefer. As I would hope all can see, Mr. Hubbard takes this very seriously and it's hard for me to imagine that something couldn't be taken directly to him.

Someone mentioned that Cthulhu and I outrank Mr. Hubbard as martial artists. Indeed, this is so, but it has _never_ been an issue. It's his board, plain and simple, and the ranking issue is no more relevant than the fact that I'm better-looking than either of them.

We really appreciate constructive criticism. This board is for you! We also want to address any misperceptions that may arise. Please, feel free to contact any of us individually about any issues you'd rather not raise in public.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## GouRonin (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *It's his board, plain and simple, and the ranking issue is no more relevant than the fact that I'm better-looking than either of them.*




*"Forget it! IT'S CHINATOWN!"*

:redeme:


----------



## Jill666 (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *C'mon...you have to remember...
> 
> Oh some days I feel so alone...
> ...



I remember! Doug you are never alone


----------



## Cliarlaoch (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *"Forget it! IT'S CHINATOWN!"
> 
> :redeme: *



My father made me watch that flick as a kid... I see the reference, Gou. And I'm 20. So you got some of us young 'uns on side. Not that that's necessarily a benefit, mind. 



On the thread as a whole. I've not been here long enough to form any real complaints or generate any real rivalries or friendships, although there are a few whom I respect (and they know who they are, generally, and if not... well, PM me and I'll let you know). Therefore, I don't know if I have much right to comment, and since I haven't been censured yet, I also don't know how much my 2 cents will count for.

That said, I've seen threads locked and people censured. And usually it's for good reason. Sometimes I disagree, but considering that there are kids on the site, there are some things that should be deemed inappropriate. In most cases, I'd say that the mods have been good about that. I remember one thread that got out of hand (the one about instructors and students dating), and I'm glad the mods locked it before it got any worse.

I'm also a bit peeved at the way people bash the mods here. I'm not naming any names or pointing any fingers, but I've seen far too many people go after these folks for making decisions they disagree with. Fine, you're allowed to protest a decision. Fine, you're allowed to be upset if you lose out. But that said, were I a mod, I'd expect to be given at least some common courtesy, and I would hope that any mod would extend the same courtesy to the forum's users. By this, I mean one should treat people with respect, and not allow one's passions to cloud one's reason and say something all parties will regret. 

That is "the spirit of MartialTalk," IMHO. The common courtesy and respect due to a fellow Martial Artist and human being. You don't want to give that to someone, then you deserve what you get. This is not a knock on Kirk or others who have beefs with the mods. I simply wish to point out that if one wants to be treated with respect, one should act to treat others in the same manner. Kind of a "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" thing. 

The mods and the users on this forum are all human. Sometimes they make bad decisions, sometimes they make good ones. If you lose one argument on this site, you don't go out and torch the person you lost to after every post they put out. If sometimes things don't go your way, well, ****, then I guess you're human. You want to earn respect? Then the best policy is to take a deep breath, count to 10, and come back to fight another day. If the mods do something bad, talk to Kaith or one of the others you trust, and be patient. They'll fix it in time. Don't go mouthing off. Nothing positive will come from that.



And since it's Chinatown, I'll be forgiven if I insert one of these
:redeme:
here...


For Gou's sake.


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## GouRonin (Mar 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cliarlaoch _
> *My father made me watch that flick as a kid... I see the reference, Gou. And I'm 20. So you got some of us young 'uns on side. Not that that's necessarily a benefit, mind.And since it's Chinatown, I'll be forgiven if I insert one of these
> :redeme:
> here...For Gou's sake. *



Thanx...and remember, no matter how bad it gets, just lean back and yell...

*...forget it! IT'S CHINATOWN!*

:redeme:


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## Seig (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Hey if he gets one I want one!!!!  *


Ok _*Boot to the Groin*_


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## Seig (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *NO, you have one, ME! *


No, he doesn't.........


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *D@mn it Paul! Stop that! You made me think of Eric Cartman when you said that and I spit my milk all over the keyboard.
> 
> I have to ask you to refrain from making me laugh while drinking. *



Gou Drinks MILK!?!

Holy Cow Bat MAN!

Now that is funny  :rofl:


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

Holy Verticle Challenge Batman! We have got to get up there!


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *"Forget it! IT'S CHINATOWN!"
> 
> :redeme: *



SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP! :wah:


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## warrior.mama (Mar 18, 2003)

Thank you for all your hard work that you put in to give martial artists a place to talk.

I have no complaints, just kudos for a job well done.

warrior.mama


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 18, 2003)

Could someone please get this thread back on track.  It seems there are only about 1000 other threads that have disintegrated into drivel, why not take the nonsense talk to one of them.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *Could someone please get this thread back on track.  It seems there are only about 1000 other threads that have disintegrated into drivel, why not take the nonsense talk to one of them. *




What if we dont wanna


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

You win, well not really, I just dont know anymore!


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## GouRonin (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Gou Drinks MILK!?!
> Holy Cow Bat MAN!
> Now that is funny  :rofl: *



Well I would have drank milk last night when you and Jaybacca and I were hanging out after training, but they don't serve milk at the nudie bar.
 :erg:


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## Cruentus (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Well I would have drank milk last night when you and Jaybacca and I were hanging out after training, but they don't serve milk at the nudie bar.
> :erg: *



Damn...you guys had more fun then me last night.....


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *You win, well not really, I just dont know anymore! *




Congratulations, you only have 36 posts and you've managed to confuse me more then anyone else on this site


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## GouRonin (Mar 18, 2003)

Have you read Ressler's book?


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Have you read Ressler's book? *



Got no clue what your on about


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## GouRonin (Mar 18, 2003)

Go read it. It's called, _"Whoever Fights Monsters,"_ by Robert K. Ressler & Tom Shachtman.

I wondered because of your quote.


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## Cliarlaoch (Mar 18, 2003)

Um... and now the thread descends into anarchy. 


Well... okay, so, what do we talk about now? I've listened to both sides of the argument on this thread, and neither side has really presented a compromise of some sort that the other can agree with.

While I would think the mods are in the right here, I haven't been witness to any of the stuff that Kirk and others have been upset about, so I don't know. Are we gonna have stricter rules, mods, or are we gonna stay the same? What's the plan, here, folks?

And, yes, I know, it's bloody well Chinatown. 
:redeme:

Beat you to it, Gou.


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

Here I will say something with a little bit of seiousnisity.  

"I feel that the Mods are doing a good enuff job on handling the boards, I am a moderator on a forum and it is a lot of work checking every thread to see if anything is not quite right, and I think if you are old enuff to find this site and register an account then you should be able to handle any slip ups without them warping your fragile little mind."  

If that made no sense then just ignore me.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *Here I will say something with a little bit of seiousnisity.
> 
> "I feel that the Mods are doing a good enuff job on handling the boards, I am a moderator on a forum and it is a lot of work checking every thread to see if anything is not quite right, and I think if you are old enuff to find this site and register an account then you should be able to handle any slip ups without them warping your fragile little mind."
> ...



I'll just ignore you then......And I say that KIRK wins and we hand Martial Talk over to him for a whole day and see Chaos break loose!!!!! Anarchy Rules!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## GouRonin (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cliarlaoch _
> *Um... and now the thread descends into anarchy.And, yes, I know, it's bloody well Chinatown. Beat you to it, Gou. *



Yeah baby!

*"CHINATOWN!"*

:redeme:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Go read it. It's called, "Whoever Fights Monsters," by Robert K. Ressler & Tom Shachtman.
> 
> I wondered because of your quote. *



Nope, stole it from the "What are you currently reading" post


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

Salmon


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *Salmon *


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

It is a Fish, and we all know fish equals destruction!


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## Master of Blades (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *It is a Fish, and we all know fish equals destruction! *




Ummm.......yeah, Im gonna go over there *Goes over there*


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

Now I am sad, you have destroyed my feelings and I like salmon! Good are all salmon.


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cliarlaoch _
> *Are we gonna have stricter rules, mods, or are we gonna stay the same? What's the plan, here, folks?*



There are no plans for stricter rules. The only plan is to seek input from our members.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## arnisador (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *I am a moderator on a forum *



Where, if you don't mind me asking. Feel free to respond by PM if you prefer.


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## Cruentus (Mar 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *There are no plans for stricter rules. The only plan is to seek input from our members.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin- *



That's good to hear....I don't think that stricter rules is the answer here.


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 18, 2003)

I would like to set the record straight about my rant earlier.  I had some issues that were bothering me about the site and they had been festering for a while.  When this thread started I decided what the hell, what better place to vent.

I am not suggesting tightening the rules around here so that every post is policed.  I am not saying let it all go to pot either.  I know the moderators have a very tough job, and usually you piss some one off no matter how you handle a situation.  For that my hat hat is off to them, keep up the good work. 

I left being a moderator(still in my probationary period, I may not have even made it to the final selection) for a few reasons, time constraints with work at that time, my wife nagging about spending more time with the computer than her, and I felt at times we were too politially correct almost santized in the moderating process.  Is that a bad thing proabably not, I just like to remove something overtly offensive immediately in the hope that the less who have to see the less damage it can do.  I have no ill will to any member of the moderation team here at Martial Talk, even if I do not see eye to eye with someone for their beliefs I respect them for putting them forth.

After I had my rant I felt a lot better, I PM'd Kaith within minutes and let him know that I was very pleased with most of the aspects of Martial Talk.  The rant or maybe even tantrum was very therapeutic and I have come back to posting with a renewed vigor.  

Hope everyone realizes what a unique forum this is and I hope they take advantage of all it has to offer.


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## Chaos (Mar 18, 2003)

Oh, I am a moderator on an online game forum, The game is called The battles of Tenadia and it consists of Lvling up a pit fighter and fighting in massive arena battles with hundreds of people at a time, all simulated while you sleep. The site is www.tenadia.com but the game or forum is not up at the moment due to a change in WebService. The forum is just game talk, roleplaying, story telling and joking around. That a good enuff answer?


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## qizmoduis (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Chaos _
> *Here I will say something with a little bit of seiousnisity.
> 
> "I feel that the Mods are doing a good enuff job on handling the boards, I am a moderator on a forum and it is a lot of work checking every thread to see if anything is not quite right, and I think if you are old enuff to find this site and register an account then you should be able to handle any slip ups without them warping your fragile little mind."
> ...



I agree with you completely.  We're supposed to be responsible adults here.  It would be nice to see folks behave as if this were the case.  Construing every little mistake as a personal insult or an attempt to impose a new totalitarian regime on the internet is silly.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 19, 2003)

lmao. Exactly.  

I just shrug whenever someone says he is mad over something someone posted (or I posted  lol ) . KIDS!  lol    As if any one cares if you are mad or not.  Get over it and get on with your life. This is just the internet.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *lmao. Exactly.
> 
> I just shrug whenever someone says he is mad over something someone posted (or I posted  lol ) . KIDS!  lol    As if any one cares if you are mad or not.  Get over it and get on with your life. This is just the internet. *




HAHA.......I love your view on things, it ALWAYS makes me laugh :rofl:


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## Chaos (Mar 19, 2003)

That is because of your Salmon *STAB*.... sorry, Salmon Heritage....


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## Cruentus (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *HAHA.......I love your view on things, it ALWAYS makes me laugh :rofl: *



JN usually makes me laugh too, even when he is pissing off everyone else on this entire forum......


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## Chaos (Mar 19, 2003)

Can I laugh as well, ok then I will! :rofl:


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## Seig (Mar 19, 2003)

Bob,
Thanks for the call.  I enjoyed talking to you immensely.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *JN usually makes me laugh too, even when he is pissing off everyone else on this entire forum......  *



yup......always a good read :rofl:


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *...my wife nagging about spending more time with the computer than her,  *



Holy crap, you get that too??????


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## Seig (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Holy crap, you get that too?????? *


Guys, spend more time with your wives, your life will get easier...........or not............right Stick Dummy?


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## Jill666 (Mar 20, 2003)

Yup- heard it from my husband-

exact quote-

"Could you NOT spend every waking moment on that computer and spend some time with ME?"

:erg: 

Since he spent that past 8 years of his life programming (IE: spending every waking moment on that computer) I was so astonished I was actually speechless. :erg: 

Then I did this :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

That didn't go over well.


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## Kirk (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *Yup- heard it from my husband-
> 
> exact quote-
> ...



When the wife says it, it means "we haven't cuddled enough"
When a hubby says it, it means "you can go right back to it in 
20 minutes .. if you're smart enough to find this message"

:rofl:


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## jeffkyle (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *When the wife says it, it means "we haven't cuddled enough"
> When a hubby says it, it means "you can go right back to it in
> 20 minutes .. if you're smart enough to find this message"
> ...



That is funny...I am telling all the women I come across about it!  :rofl:


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## Jill666 (Mar 20, 2003)

Thanks for the translation :shrug:


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## Kirk (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *Thanks for the translation :shrug: *




ROFLMAO!!

*sniff* *sniff* Ah, the profound smell of sarcasm!


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## Master of Blades (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *ROFLMAO!!
> 
> *sniff* *sniff* Ah, the profound smell of sarcasm!  *



I like sarcasm.....


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *I like sarcasm.....  *



Well this isn't sarcasm.

Step into a horse to receive your boot to the groin!


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## Seig (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *ROFLMAO!!
> 
> *sniff* *sniff* Ah, the profound smell of sarcasm!  *


My wife taught me that women are never sarcastic, they are fascetious.


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## Master of Blades (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Well this isn't sarcasm.
> 
> Step into a horse to receive your boot to the groin! *



:disgust: Havnt had one of them for a while......


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## Jill666 (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *My wife taught me that women are never sarcastic, they are fascetious. *




Uh, yeah! What she said.


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## Seig (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *:disgust: Havnt had one of them for a while...... *


Gotta keep you in line


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## Master of Blades (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Gotta keep you in line *



Well its good to know someone is trying to keep order in this place


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Well its good to know someone is trying to keep order in this place  *



Well between Seig & I we should rule the locker room without any problems. You see your new buddy Chaos is calmed down already.


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## GouRonin (Mar 21, 2003)

...not to bring this thread back to topic I think that standing up against a convicted pedophile and taking a strong stance for the right to free speech shows that perhaps we all need to pick and choose our battles at times but that for the most part this board is commited to free speech for all.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Jill666 (Mar 21, 2003)

Sincerity rears it's ugly head again!

Is it something in the water?


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## Seig (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *...not to bring this thread back to topic I think that standing up against a convicted pedophile and taking a strong stance for the right to free speech shows that perhaps we all need to pick and choose our battles at times but that for the most part this board is commited to free speech for all.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. *


When all esle fails, Boot 'em in the groin.


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## RCastillo (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *When all esle fails, Boot 'em in the groin. *



Ya know, somwhere a Urologist is reading this, and smiling.


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## Seig (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Ya know, somwhere a Urologist is reading this, and smiling. *


and getting his stack of claims forms ready


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Ya know, somwhere a Urologist is reading this, and smiling. *



This is what makes the world go round. Someone pays Seig to boot 'em in the groin then they pay the doctor to fix 'em up.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *...not to bring this thread back to topic I think that standing up against a convicted pedophile and taking a strong stance for the right to free speech shows that perhaps we all need to pick and choose our battles at times but that for the most part this board is commited to free speech for all.
> 
> Just my 2 cents. *




Gou Ronin,

I thought this thread was about Censorship, Moderation and MartialTalk?

On that issue, I think there are some who have epressed their opinion that they are not happy, and that there are some who are happy.

Arnisador, has posted that there most likely will not be a strictor policy enforced. Which I think was not the complaint. The issue has been raised and discussed, now it is up to the Martial Talk Team, and I include all of its' members as well as the Moderator and Administrators, to report anything, and to feel comfortable to post also.



Have a nice Saturday everyone ! I just wish the rain would stop so I could work on my Yard. 

:asian:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Well between Seig & I we should rule the locker room without any problems. You see your new buddy Chaos is calmed down already. *



uh uh. I rule the locker room......This is MY domain :ticked:


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *uh uh. I rule the locker room......This is MY domain :ticked: *



Tisk, Tisk. You don't want to prove male dominance here in the locker room you will lose.:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Tisk, Tisk. You don't want to prove male dominance here in the locker room you will lose.:asian: *



That would be true.

Let's all just get along 

Hey MOB, * Boot to the Groin *


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## Master of Blades (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *That would be true.
> 
> Let's all just get along
> ...



That might work.......were your *Boot to the Groin* as good as mine........so in other words......Rich! Have a Steel tipped *Boot to the Groin* Courtesy of your friend MOB


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *That might work.......were your *Boot to the Groin* as good as mine........so in other words......Rich! Have a Steel tipped *Boot to the Groin* Courtesy of your friend MOB  *




Clank,

That is the Steel cup I wear. How is the arch of your foot as I see you missed. 

OH BTW I also wear steel tipped and heeled shoes, so watch out for the front kick turning in the heel snap kick into the kidney 

Let me know if see Red?
:rofl:


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## Master of Blades (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Clank,
> 
> That is the Steel cup I wear. How is the arch of your foot as I see you missed.
> ...



Hmmmmm......it seems I have finally met a challenge......let me go and collect my Iron Wood sticks and we shall see who is the Alpha male around here


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *......let me go and collect my Iron Wood sticks and we shall see who is the Alpha male around here  *



It's again unfortunate for you that we have been studying as long as or longer than you have been alive young one.   You will still lose, face facts, you will always assume the horse stance to collect your boots to the groin. 

On that note I must go and spend time with my family at the moment and will not return until tomorrow.


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Hmmmmm......it seems I have finally met a challenge......let me go and collect my Iron Wood sticks and we shall see who is the Alpha male around here  *




Cool Sticks. I have been training in Modern Arnis longer than you have been alive  I accept your challenge!

Now I am having a good Night!


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## Master of Blades (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *It's again unfortunate for you that we have been studying as long as or longer than you have been alive young one.   You will still lose, face facts, you will always assume the horse stance to collect your boots to the groin.
> 
> On that note I must go and spend time with my family at the moment and will not return until tomorrow. *



Have fun and wish them the best from me


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## Master of Blades (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Cool Sticks. I have been training in Modern Arnis longer than you have been alive  I accept your challenge!
> 
> Now I am having a good Night!  *



Lol.......okay you asked for it! 

*Walks forward Sticks raised and..........trips cracking his ankle*

Damn looks like I cant..... But heres my understudy......Rich, meet, MY FATHER :ticked: Hes a 2nd Dan in Hapkido and been doing Kali for 22 years......have fun, I'll be right over there :rofl:


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Lol.......okay you asked for it!
> 
> *Walks forward Sticks raised and..........trips cracking his ankle*
> ...




Sounds like Fun 



BTW Check out the Chat room!


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## Master of Blades (Mar 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Sounds like Fun
> 
> 
> ...



Fun isnt the word........


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## arnisador (Mar 22, 2003)

Given the thread drift, I'll no longer be checking this thread regularly and carefully for on-topic messages related to the moderation of MartialTalk. Please, if you make such a post and wish for a response call it to my attention via PM.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Michael Billings (Mar 23, 2003)

I like the thread to stay somewhat on topic.  OK to get off for a while, but not for 3 pages the way you guys do.  I just read 3 pages to see that nothing was said of interest to me... even though yall were having fun.  Furthermore, now the moderator does not even feel compelled to monitor the thread he started to get feedback about running this forum.  

Oh well, guess you can do what you want when you want, but I will be reading less posts headed the way yall went.  Bummer, I usually stick em out cause yall have something to offer.

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 23, 2003)

To those folks who have expressed their concerns, both publically, and privately, I thank you.

I'm going to close this thread now, as its been several pages without new 'input' on the issues.

We have taken in to consideration what we've been told, and there are many things in the works for the future that will address them.

If anyone wishes to contact me directly:
Email : kaithrustaz@martialtalk.com

Snail Mail : 
Bob Hubbard
PO Box 1372
Buffalo, NY 14220

If you would like to talk voice, PM or email me your phone number (and your real name...I aint calling long distance n asking for "The Nightmare". )  I'll call anyone in the contenental US or Canada.

Good day all, and thank you.

    :asian:


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## arnisador (Mar 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Furthermore, now the moderator does not even feel compelled to monitor the thread he started to get feedback about running this forum.  *



Clarification: Mr. Hubbard started the thread. I personally decided to point out that due to the extensive thread drift _I_ would no longer be reading this thread regularly and carefully for concerns. I was not speaking for Mr. Hubbard, only myself.

Your post goes to the heart of an issue that concerns us: Thread dift making the martial arts conversations here less useful. We'd like to see the "fun" thread drift principally limited to The Locker Room. In the arts fora, threads may drift but should remain generally on the topic in the subject and focused on the martial arts.

As always, PM a mod. to have a thread split or a note posted to keep it on track. We can no longer monitor all threads as closely as we once did!

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------

