# advice



## Antighsiothail (Sep 2, 2018)

Hi
Just after some ideas.

Before I moved I'd been a member of a club for 13 years, in the last 4-5 years before I moved I helped out with new members, so had some experience instructing.

About 10 months ago I started teaching a guy who contacted me wanting to learn, so we set about training, it's been just the 2 of us all that time.

Recently had a demo to try to get some more people interested, the result is another 3 people coming along. I don't want the guy I started with originally, being held back too much while working with the new people.

So how do you arrange it so this doesn't happen?


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## marques (Sep 2, 2018)

Not sure I understand the situation. Different classes for the first and the others would help? After a few month they could train all together.

You just do not want the first student? Give more/all attention to the other guys. Plan everything with the new ones in mind. The first one will give up, eventually.


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## Martial D (Sep 2, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> Hi
> Just after some ideas.
> 
> Before I moved I'd been a member of a club for 13 years, in the last 4-5 years before I moved I helped out with new members, so had some experience instructing.
> ...


Have the new three partner up for drills, you work with your main student/partner. That way once you show them something new, they can see you guys working it and voila you're a training aid


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> I don't want the guy I started with originally, being held back too much while working with the new people.


If you

- don't teach form, you won't have much problem.
- try to find different set up to execute the same technique, your old student will just learn more different set up.


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## pdg (Sep 2, 2018)

marques said:


> You just do not want the first student? Give more/all attention to the other guys. Plan everything with the new ones in mind. The first one will give up, eventually.



Yeah, that's how I read it at first - could have been worded better.

I think he means he doesn't want the first guy being held back by him teaching the new guys...


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## drop bear (Sep 2, 2018)

You are teaching 4 guys. You should be OK.


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 2, 2018)

(pdg. I think he means he doesn't want the first guy being held back by him teaching the new guys)......yes that's exactly what I meant, perhaps I shouldn't have put the comma where it is. I want to keep my original student interested and progressing at the same time as I'm teaching the new ones. Not quite sure how to plan it though, don't want to baffle the new ones either.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2018)

drop bear said:


> You are teaching 4 guys. You should be OK.


When I taught UT Austin Kung Fu informational class, every semester I would have 50 students.  I taught there for 15 years (3 semesters each year). In my class, I had students who had been with me for 15 years, 14 years, ... 2 years, 1 years. If I could handle for 15 years for over 2,000 students, just 4 guys should be a small issue.

If you teach 35 different ways to execute "foot sweep", and if you teach 2 foot sweep per year, your 15 years students may still have not learned all 35 foot sweep yet.


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## gucia6 (Sep 3, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> Hi
> Just after some ideas.
> 
> Before I moved I'd been a member of a club for 13 years, in the last 4-5 years before I moved I helped out with new members, so had some experience instructing.
> ...


I am not too experienced, but from perspective of a newbie...

Do some basic punches, kicks, steps for all as warm-up. Show first kata (or whatever first basic form you have), repeat couple of times with everyone, so they grasp the movement. Let the new guys practice the thing on their own (weather it is just simple punches, kick or complete form) while you do something else with the 'older' partner. At the end do some paired practice rotating people, let the more experienced one give pointers to the 'juniors', as maybe he would be able to explain some details better. It can also give both sides more comfortable feeling of belonging to the same 'family'.


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## now disabled (Sep 3, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> Hi
> Just after some ideas.
> 
> Before I moved I'd been a member of a club for 13 years, in the last 4-5 years before I moved I helped out with new members, so had some experience instructing.
> ...




Like DB said teaching four guys you shouldn't hit many problems, I get the bit about holding back but really the guy that is further on has to learn at some point to work around guy/girls that are less experienced and you could use that as a way to teach him control and patience and to focus on say technique when he drills with new starts, It might in some ways be beneficial to all.


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## DaveB (Sep 3, 2018)

Repetition is a huge part.of ma training.
Going over earlier levels should reinforce, not hinder a more experienced student.

Otherwise have him do one exercise, have the new guys do something else.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 3, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Like DB said teaching four guys you shouldn't hit many problems, I get the bit about holding back but really the guy that is further on has to learn at some point to work around guy/girls that are less experienced and you could use that as a way to teach him control and patience and to focus on say technique when he drills with new starts, It might in some ways be beneficial to all.



How was it done at the school you were at for 13 years?  It is done at all martial arts schools all the time.  New students come in all the time (if the teacher is lucky), and are taught basic move at continue to learn.  Some learn quickly, others not so quickly.  You can't teach only new ones of course.  Your first student may not be at a point to teach really well, but under your supervision, he can teach those things you think he has learned best.

Don't sweat the small stuff.  Just teach like you were taught.


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 3, 2018)

At the previous club I was very lucky, I attended the normal sessions but after a while managed to get extra sessions with the 5th dan who ran the club and a 1st dan, so just the 3 of us. I think I may do the same, have the normal sessions for everyone and every few weeks have a couple of hours extra with my original student.  It only costs me a £1 for 2 hours at the local leisure centre, so cost isn't an issue.
I'll have to see if he wants to do that.


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## now disabled (Sep 3, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> At the previous club I was very lucky, I attended the normal sessions but after a while managed to get extra sessions with the 5th dan who ran the club and a 1st dan, so just the 3 of us. I think I may do the same, have the normal sessions for everyone and every few weeks have a couple of hours extra with my original student.  It only costs me a £1 for 2 hours at the local leisure centre, so cost isn't an issue.
> I'll have to see if he wants to do that.




Have you got tatami or mats ?


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 4, 2018)

The leisure centre staff put out the mats and take them away, so makes it really easy. 
Thank you to all who replied, only through seeing the replies and thinking more about it did I come up with the idea of a separate session.


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## marques (Sep 4, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> The leisure centre staff put out the mats and take them away, so makes it really easy.
> Thank you to all who replied, only through seeing the replies and thinking more about it did I come up with the idea of a separate session.


This first guy could 'help' you with the new guys as well. The new guys can look the first one and see what they can become in the near future. They can train together (2 pairs of people) with you supervising, but you would give and expect a bit more to/from the first one.

I think I would have a separated class if possible, but would have them all together at times as well. People attracts people. If of the 3 new students 1 or 2 fails the class - which is quite normal - they will lack a variety of oponent styles and shapes. Even with all 3 going all the time...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 4, 2018)

Train your

- new student the static punch. When you punch, your back foot is not moving.
- old student the dynamic punch. When you punch, your back foot is sliding forward.

You can teach the same technique but different way to do it.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> (pdg. I think he means he doesn't want the first guy being held back by him teaching the new guys)......yes that's exactly what I meant, perhaps I shouldn't have put the comma where it is. I want to keep my original student interested and progressing at the same time as I'm teaching the new ones. Not quite sure how to plan it though, don't want to baffle the new ones either.


All MA I have ever been involved with are all about repetition so you work everyone together at first. When the new people are at their limit you set them down or break up into groups and work with your advanced student. You will figure it out.


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## now disabled (Sep 5, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> The leisure centre staff put out the mats and take them away, so makes it really easy.
> Thank you to all who replied, only through seeing the replies and thinking more about it did I come up with the idea of a separate session.




watch you don't cause division by splitting such a small group so early ... it really will do no harm for the guy that has been with you longer to be around new students. As I said before it teaches people control and the realisation that is part of any MA although each has there own path working together is a big thing. Also use the more advanced student as your Uke ... As you will well know being around Aikido for so long that being able to take Ukemi and do proper breakfalls is very important.

Also as you all progress and the school grows then having a good uke is very important (I don't mean one that fakes) as then you at demos can go for more advanced techs. The student that is more advanced also should be able to help the new students as he should be getting the idea of where he needs to be to take ukemi etc so that it progresses new starts and gives them better understanding. 

Your further advanced student has h studied Aikido previously? and if so what style ?


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 5, 2018)

(Your further advanced student has he studied Aikido previously? and if so what style ?) Yes he did an Iwama style but a good few years ago and didn't go for long, I've had him for nearly 12 months now.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 5, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> (Your further advanced student has he studied Aikido previously? and if so what style ?) Yes he did an Iwama style but a good few years ago and didn't go for long, I've had him for nearly 12 months now.



If you are a good teacher and you older student is a good student (both assumed), he should be able to teach basics to brand new students.  In fact, he should learn about as much from teaching as he learns from being taught.


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## now disabled (Sep 5, 2018)

I'm guessing you are not from the Iwama school lol, 

Which school are you teaching ?


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 5, 2018)

(Which school are you teaching ?) Shin Shin Toitsu  ( KI Aikido)


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## ShortBridge (Sep 5, 2018)

The struggle is real. I limit my class size and have had no attrition in years, so I don't turn over that much, but I have expanded a bit, so I have people sufficiently more experienced than others in the same class. 

1) You just have to deal with giving them each what they need. It's a lot harder to run a class that way, but unless you want different classes for different levels of student, you have to do it. You could offer the senior student some extra time for private training or just split them up.

2) The senior student will have to drill basics a bit. This feels like a drag to him, but it is actually good for him (or her) up to point. The junior students will conversely be likely to get pushed ahead of their readiness more quickly. This may feel like a win for them and it could be to some degree, but I noticed that my 2nd batch of students were lacking some things that my first was not. When I thought about it, I rushed them through some of the rudiments.

If you haven't already, I would suggest thinking ahead and planning your growth. How big do you want to be and by when? It will help you plan. If this is as big as you want to be, it will work itself out pretty soon, but if you add new people a few times a year, you'll always have these gaps to manage around.

As my dad would say "these are good problems to have".


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## now disabled (Sep 5, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> (Which school are you teaching ?) Shin Shin Toitsu  ( KI Aikido)




If I'm ever up that way I'll give you a shout ..


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 5, 2018)

now disabled said:


> If I'm ever up that way I'll give you a shout ..


  I'm a long way north, but you would be welcome.


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## Antighsiothail (Sep 12, 2018)

Gets more complicated, just had a couple join me and they've brought 3 children with them. Twins I think are about 7 and the other one about 9, never had to deal with children before argghhhh. Got to try to work out how to keep the adults going and how to keep the kids interested!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 26, 2018)

Antighsiothail said:


> Gets more complicated, just had a couple join me and they've brought 3 children with them. Twins I think are about 7 and the other one about 9, never had to deal with children before argghhhh. Got to try to work out how to keep the adults going and how to keep the kids interested!


I tihnk you may be accidentally stumbling into opening up a school


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## Antighsiothail (Oct 4, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I tihnk you may be accidentally stumbling into opening up a school


I think you may well be right!


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## wab25 (Oct 4, 2018)

If I read this right, your advanced student is 10 months ahead of the beginners? Thats not a big difference. It should be well worth his time to work with other people, instead of keeping him separate. You also learn a lot trying to make your technique work on someone who has not yet learned "when to fall down now." 

I have been studying my art for just over 20 years now. However, senior instructors can always find many things for me to work on, in our first kata / technique. (and its a very simple technique) So, when teaching people of different levels, they can all do the same thing, but focus on different parts. Some will be working on the gross motor movements, while others may be fine tuning different parts, others may be taking the technique in slightly different directions or from different setups. Or you might have different lengths of steps. Beginners are doing a wrist lock, intermediate are doing wrist lock into take down, advanced are doing wrist lock to take down to pin. With 4-5 students, work in a line, have one guy do his level on all the others, then switch the guy doing the technique. There are many ways for different level students to work on different things, with the same kata/technique. And its not bad for the beginners to see and or feel the advanced version, as long as they are ready for the fall.


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## kunetao (Oct 15, 2018)

Coming from a small school my old master was a pro at this kind of situation. We were all shown one move and then the master would move around the room and make adjustments and the more advanced students would have things added to the moves.  For example If we were doing some attack parry combo the newer students worked on just that where as the advanced students would add other attacks and or takedowns.


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