# Five Animal Kenpo with Sijo Trevor Haines



## TaiChiTJ (Mar 29, 2005)

Found a kenpo site i had never heard of: 

http://www.kenpodvd.com/

i think his background is Parker, but i am not sure. 

any comments from the sizeable martialtalk kenpo community ?


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## Mark Weiser (Mar 30, 2005)

I have spoken with him previously.  He has been trained under Larry Tatum and is on his family Tree. I also have some of his videos.  He currently as far as I know does not do any distance training or Testing. 

Last I heard he moved to Tennesse and turned over operations over to one of his Senior BB in California.


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## Jonathan Randall (Mar 30, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> Found a kenpo site i had never heard of:
> 
> http://www.kenpodvd.com/
> 
> ...


Yes, he was in my Judo class in college. At the time, mid 1980's, he was a senior brown belt in kenpo, taking both boxing and judo as P.E. electives, and was heavily involved in all aspects of the martial arts.

I cannot vouch for his style but I can say that he has many years in the martial arts and is a dedicated practioner. Haven't seen him in about fifteen years, though.


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## Doc (Mar 30, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> Found a kenpo site i had never heard of:
> 
> http://www.kenpodvd.com/
> 
> ...


I have never in my life seen so many people who think they're qualified to be the "founder" of their own art. I'm still trying to get a handle on someone else's. Of course when you establish your very own art, you can never be wrong.  of course that don't make you right either. But then again he has promoted a lot more black belts than me .....


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## Seabrook (Mar 30, 2005)

When someone has promoted tons and tons of black belts, I get weary. Either he's one heck of a good instructor with very low student turn-around and has been teaching for decades, or people seem to get their rank as fast as kids want candy. 


IMHO - it's usually the latter.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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## Citius (Apr 15, 2005)

Much to address here in this post so here is goes:

I am currently a student at Trevor's school in Sacramento. He has 3 locations here. Many students have been under his instruction for over a decade. His current program requires about 4.5 years before you can even consider testing for a black belt. I have been going to his school since 1997.

He is considering a distance learning program and is currently in development of such a program. The program will require an annual pilgrimage to test in-person to attain certain ranks. There will also be a requirement to test by video for each rank. This is as good as one can expect from distance learning.

In today's modern world it is easy to provide vast amounts of knowledge and instruction to any corner of the globe. It would suffice to say that no distance learning program would be equivalent to in-person instruction. It also must be noted that most karate schools do not teach students to become "masters" of their art. Indeed most people take martial arts because they enjoy the discipline, excercise, self-defense skills and the spirituality of martial arts. It is also safe to assume that most students are not super atheletes who wish to acquire super human skills.

Many people take piano lessons but few expect to become another Mozart or Beethoven. With that said, it can be reasonable to assume that someone could become quite good at playing the piano or become a solid practitioner or martial arts through solid instruction even if the instruction is a distance learning program. You should also consider that each student who takes martial arts assigns the value of their rank accordingly. A student who buys a black belt online cannot hold in high regard such a rank. A student who commits to training for years, whether it is in-person or distance learning will hold in high regard any rank earned. Distance learning is an inevitable evolution of martial arts instruction and will not "dilute" the quality of the martial arts community but will increase the reach of the arts. If a person purchases a black belt online or out of a magazine that person does not take away from my achievements nor does it take away from my art. I assign value to my rank and my abilities. No one else.

As to the nature or Five Animal Kenpo I can say only this. I have taken traditional American Kenpo and now Five Animal Kenpo and to me there are subtle differences. Trevor is also a Wing Chun instructor and has incorporated many aspects into Five Animal Kenpo. Trevor has no intention of improving American Kenpo but introducing concepts from Wing Chun into his teachings. It is necessary to change the name from American Kenpo because the techniques are different and many aspects are different. Trevor is very qualified to found a new style because of his lifelong commitment to the art. In truth, there are no standards by which any person must meet to found a style. The measure of an instructors skill is based on the commitment of his students and their belief in their art. Trevor has the full spectrum of students with some being very highly skilled and others who take martial arts less seriously. I am somewhere in the middle. I enjoy his school and believe in his vision to produce instructional materials, which will outlive the instructor. Think of all the great lessons and magical teachings that vanished the days that Yip Man or Ed Parker died. Think of how those moments could have been preserved and past down through the ages, complete and unchanged forever. The digital age is upon us and the wisdom of todays instructors can reach far and forever. You can criticize the medium but not the message. Intolerance is equivalent to ignorance.


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## Doc (Apr 15, 2005)

Clearly in todays climate dam near everyone thinks they're qualified to found "their own system." This is a unique time in history where the knowledge available in one system transcends the amount of time available to learn it well.

There was a time in Parker's teaching when you could get a black belt in less than a year. As Parker became more and more knowledgeable in his various interpretations, the amount of information grew.

My point is simple; Everybody ain't an Ed Parker or Yip Man but think they are, and there's nothing we can do about it. They will continue to create these "systems" and we can only take them for what they are.

Lastly ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money whomever it is. I don't want to hear that crap about performing a service for "students who don't have a school nearby." That's absolutely laughable. I'll say it again, "If you can get "it" by video, "it" ain't very much.


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## donald (Apr 15, 2005)

Citius,

Well said, well said. Sounds like Mr.Haines has an excellent back ground, and time will tell. I remember reading about Mr.Parker's trials early on. Sounded alot like the naysayers here. I wonder what aspects of A.K., Mr.Haines adopted into his system? Can you shed a little light on this subject? 

By His Grace,
1st John 1:9


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## SION (Apr 15, 2005)

One thing I know for sure, you will not get any of Doc`s material via a distance learning course.

If it is worth having it is worth traveling for, no matter how long it takes you.

KJM


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## TaiChiTJ (Apr 15, 2005)

Trevor has no intention of improving American Kenpo but introducing concepts from Wing Chun into his teachings.  
Very interesting. 

I was surfing the web the other day and came across this "Black Dragon Kenpo" site. They are affiliated with the IKCA. I was scrolling down the technique list and lo and behold, there was a bunch of names I remember from my Wing Chun days, pak sao, etc. So they are doing it too. 

http://www.bdkyo.com/association/

Bye the way, its a nicely constructed site with colors that are easy on the eyes. The last time I was on the official IKCA site it had that IMHO awful black background with red (i think) letters. I find it hard to read.


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## Citius (Apr 16, 2005)

"ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money"

That is a very slanderous statement. You must think you are the wisest person on Earth to know the hearts and minds of every person who has charged a fee for martial arts instruction. Unless of course your madness proposes that in-person instruction for a fee is the act of a noble saint and distance learning by the same individual makes him/her a greedy scounderal. Your statement also persecutes most of the finest teachers this generation has to offer.

I fear your years of training and dedication in your art may have been in vain to produce such a intolerant mind.


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## Doc (Apr 16, 2005)

Citius said:
			
		

> "ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money"


If you're going to quote me, do it properly.

"Lastly *ANYBODY* who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money *WHOMEVER* it is. I don't want to hear that crap about performing a service for "students who don't have a school nearby." That's absolutely laughable. *I'll say it again, "If you can get "it" by video, "it" ain't very much.*


> That is a very slanderous statement.


Apparently in addition to other deficiencies, you also are not a legal scholar.


> You must think you are the wisest person on Earth to know the hearts and minds of every person who has charged a fee for martial arts instruction.


Charging a fee for martial arts instruction and giving belts by video are two different things.


> Unless of course your madness proposes that in-person instruction for a fee is the act of a noble saint and distance learning by the same individual makes him/her a greedy scounderal.


You may consider me mad, but at least I had a credible teacher and waited until I was long past brown belt before I began to develop an opinion about things I knew nothing about.


> Your statement also persecutes most of the finest teachers this generation has to offer.


I guess that depends on your definition of "... finest teachers ..."


> I fear your years of training and dedication in your art may have been in vain to produce such a intolerant mind.


Interesting, but at least I have done the "... years of training and dedication ..." part you have yet to experience. Perhaps, all things considered, and the time I have put in, maybe you are the one with the intolerable mind.  Either way you are entitled to your opinion just like any other brown belt in a style few people have heard of.

But you are right about one thing. I have no tolerance or political correctness answers for those who would be self-proclaimed geniuses, or those who would follow those who bastardize arts and become defacto "founders." Some individuals may indeed have merit in what they do and teach, and when I see it I will defintely acknowledge it. But don't become upset that you cannot sell me on the validity of what you have chosen to follow and the worth of your brown belt. I am not even remotely impressed, nor should you care whether I am or not.

What you have is the weight of your opinion, and I am saddled by mine. Some may find validity in yours, some mine. The difference is, I don't care what you think, nor am I impressed by your homemade brown belt.  Every John Dow with the ability to fog a mirror has his own style. Most suck. And although a couple may have merit, I'll play the odds and say they suck until proven different. After all, somebody has to stand up and tell the truth, even if it hurts some brown belts feelings because he took it personally. Me? if I thought what I was doing was the shizznit, I wouldn't give it a second thought. Hell, you may be right, but the odds say, "not a chance." And if you keep messing with me, I'll sic the Golden Dragon on you, and then you'll really be sorry.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 16, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> .... Most *suck.* And although a couple may have merit, I'll play the odds and say they *suck* ...


:rofl:


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## Citius (Apr 16, 2005)

DOC "somebody has to stand up and tell the truth"

Truth?

Clearly your blood pressure runs high. I do not require a black belt to identify an iconoclast. Forums and chat rooms abound aplenty with your kind. Admonishing everything. Praising little but one's own views. Thank you for your time. You have a good life and safe journey.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Apr 16, 2005)

Citius said:
			
		

> DOC "somebody has to stand up and tell the truth"
> 
> Truth?
> 
> Clearly your blood pressure runs high. I do not require a black belt to identify an iconoclast. Forums and chat rooms abound aplenty with your kind. Admonishing everything. Praising little but one's own views. Thank you for your time. You have a good life and safe journey.


 
Sorry to burst your bubble there bub but I gotta go with Doc on this about Trevor.   His lifelong committment to the art, big deal, I've done the same and I ain't runnin' around claiming CISOTIC Kenpo is my new art that's based on EPAK.     I teach the base art, and go further for those that understand it.     I've done many arts in these last 29 years, and analyzed to death, but it still isn't gonna be new and improved if you've learned Kenpo correctly.    You know, I thought I knew Kenpo years ago and thought it needed to be improved, shame hindsight is 20/20

Trevor was good, one of the best Kenpoists I'd seen to date as I've trained with him.   He had it, physically and mentally, but creating his own style,  NNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOTTTTTTTTTTT.

DarK LorD


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## The Kai (Apr 16, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> :rofl:


Ditto


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## TaiChiTJ (Apr 16, 2005)

Young Master Trevor is "drinking water from two wells" as he has reached into Parker's Kenpo and then into WC, resulting in his self-created combo plan. 

Valued testimony from others in this thread suggests he has indeed drank deeply from both wells, becoming talented in both arts. 

Doc and other Kenpoists are "drinking deeply from one well", sticking to the concepts and principles of Parker's Kenpo, with certain enhancements and continuing development, finding all the depth they need with no compelling reason to mix with the waters from other "wells". 

Is Trevor's system "better" ? 
IMHO it is simply a development. 

This reminds me a little of Chong's kung fu, where he is using Wing Chun's Chi Sao exercise to teach Bak Mei Kung Fu. Admittedly it is not exactly the same. Bak Mei is a southern system, and WC is a southern system so they are already somewhat close together, by country and by culture. Sifu Chong states clearly he only uses the two man paired Chi Sao exercise as an introduction to the Bak Mei self defense techniques. He has not altered Bak Mei. 

If I read correctly Trevor has altered Kenpo's techniques. IMHO we must use caution down that path. 

By what I have written above I mean no ill will towards any of the systems mentioned, or their practioners. 

http://www.wingchunbakmei.com/sifu.htm


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 16, 2005)

Citius said:
			
		

> DOC "somebody has to stand up and tell the truth"
> 
> Truth?
> 
> Clearly your blood pressure runs high. I do not require a black belt to identify an iconoclast. Forums and chat rooms abound aplenty with your kind. Admonishing everything. Praising little but one's own views. Thank you for your time. You have a good life and safe journey.


Bubba, there are men on this forum who have been tops in kenpo since you were nigh but an itch in your daddy's pants. You might seek to avoid speaking of things of which you know not. Better to keep your mouth shut and let people THINK...

And while you're at it, take some critical thinking classes so that your future posts have some sense to them. Blasting da udder guy doesn't make a point; it just makes you look silly, since all you have to say is, well, something that blasts the udder guy. Does little to address the points raised -- directly or covertly -- in the arguments or positions you seek to address. 

Additionally, if you plan on holding yourself out as a qualified authority on who the windbags are on a site, and who might really know their shiznit, then you should do some research to learn...um...who the windbags are, and who knows their biz. You might not like what some of these guys are saying, but several are better positioned to offer an informed opinion than thou. Some on these boards are iconoclasts. Some are icons, having "been there; done that" and know what skeletons were buried in which closets, well before you started your jouney in kenpo.

If you haven't reached the part in your training about discernment, you might request that your teacher gets there with you sooner, rather than later.

Regards,

D.


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## Sapper6 (Apr 16, 2005)

hhmmm....

i guess i can't blame Citius for getting defensive.  this may be the only art this guy knows and you guys are slamming him for it.  cut it out people.

i don't think virtual bullying is really necessary here.  try resolving your issues via pm.


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## Klondike93 (Apr 16, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> hhmmm....
> 
> i guess i can't blame Citius for getting defensive.  this may be the only art this guy knows and you guys are slamming him for it.  cut it out people.
> 
> i don't think virtual bullying is really necessary here.  try resolving your issues via pm.



I heard that   


 :supcool:


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## Citius (Apr 17, 2005)

When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make.

A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there." - SGM Ed Parker

I believe him. Change is inevitable. Change is Progress. SGM Ed Parker worked on a video series. He must have found wisdom in that pursuit. Even if some of his finest students do not agree. If he had lived to see the Internet move into the private sector perhaps he would have embraced that technology also.


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## Doc (Apr 17, 2005)

Citius said:
			
		

> When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make.
> 
> A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there." - SGM Ed Parker
> 
> I believe him. Change is inevitable. Change is Progress. SGM Ed Parker worked on a video series. He must have found wisdom in that pursuit. Even if some of his finest students do not agree. If he had lived to see the Internet move into the private sector perhaps he would have embraced that technology also.


I was in the video and did the announcing. I know what he wanted to do with video, and it was NOT to promote people or give them rank. Technology yes. Rank, hell no.

By the way that quote is the header on my website.


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## Citius (Apr 17, 2005)

Then teaching Kenpo by video or "distance learning" is not what you detest, but that a rank of any kind is obtained by such an education. That clarifies things for me and I do not feel our opinions are in utter opposition. Semantics are a tricky beast. You have my respect and admiration, although I sense that means little to you. I am compelled to state it anyway.


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## Simon Curran (Apr 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> By the way that quote is the header on my website.


Off the subject of the matter in hand, but what is the address of your website sir, I have tried fruitlessly several times to search for it.


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## Bill Lear (Apr 17, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I was in the video and did the announcing. I know what he wanted to do with video, and it was NOT to promote people or give them rank. Technology yes. Rank, hell no.
> 
> By the way that quote is the header on my website.


I have to say that I agree with you there sir. I think its fine to have a video program to assist someone with their training, but the thought of completely replacing student/teacher interaction with a video training/testing program is absurd.

:idunno:


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## Bill Lear (Apr 17, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Off the subject of the matter in hand, but what is the address of your website sir, I have tried fruitlessly several times to search for it.


I think the address is: http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo


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## Simon Curran (Apr 17, 2005)

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I think the address is: http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo


Thanks, that did it.:asian:


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## Doc (Apr 17, 2005)

Citius said:
			
		

> Then teaching Kenpo by video or "distance learning" is not what you detest, but that a rank of any kind is obtained by such an education. That clarifies things for me and I do not feel our opinions are in utter opposition. Semantics are a tricky beast. You have my respect and admiration, although I sense that means little to you. I am compelled to state it anyway.


Communication like this is always tricky. As an educator I recognize learning takes many forms, however obtaining certification or a diploma in the field we practice by "distance" is like become a lifeguard over the internet. I suspect we are more on the same page than not. Thanks much.


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## Mark Weiser (Apr 18, 2005)

To give an example in this area of discussion. In distance learning (in my case) I learn to mimic the movements via video but to understand them and to fully learn these techniques. I will be traveling once a month to my instructor for a full three days to glean as much Knowledge as possible. 

During these weekends if my Instructor sees that I am ready for testing then I will test in person. For some of us there is no other option but to either relocate or travel to a great kenpo Instructor. 

Oh by the way the family ( Wife and I ) are in serious discussion of doing so I can attend classes on a daily basis.


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## The Kai (Apr 18, 2005)

Mr Weiser

I beleive that this is the best option for those you have to distance learn.  I applaud your dedication and determination


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## Doc (Apr 18, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> For some of us there is no other option but to either relocate or travel to a great kenpo Instructor.



I used to write tickets to people who said,"But there was no place to park." I always corrected them and told them, "What you mean is there was no place convenient for you to park. I happen to know there are a lot of parking places in this city, but you wanted the one that was easy for you and close." They got the space they wanted, and it was expensive, and they still can't park there. We can all make excuses to do what we want to do. Mr. Parker always said, "People only do two things in life. What they WANT to do and what they HAVE to do." The Goldendragon traveled to Pasadena not because he wanted to, but because he had to. Of course he could have just bought a video, but that's a personal decision.


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## kenposikh (Apr 19, 2005)

Hi Citius,

a couple of questions

you said



> He is considering a distance learning program and is currently in development of such a program. The program will require an annual pilgrimage to test in-person to attain certain ranks. There will also be a requirement to test by video for each rank. This is as good as one can expect from distance learning.




How critical will these grading be for example yellow belt sorry you did not have full control of your opponent or nah that ain't no 45 degree cat your hips are way out of alignment and ends up with a crap front snap kick, go away practice and resubmit. I'm afraid that I don't personally see this as being the case



> Indeed most people take martial arts because they enjoy the discipline, excercise, self-defense skills and the spirituality of martial arts.




The discipline also involves the humility to be able to take critique. Something I think people on distance learning courses don't get enough if any of.

This is not a critique of your instructor or yourself just a personal belief.


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## kenposikh (Apr 19, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Bubba, there are men on this forum who have been tops in kenpo since you were nigh but an itch in your daddy's pants. You might seek to avoid speaking of things of which you know not. Better to keep your mouth shut and let people THINK...
> 
> And while you're at it, take some critical thinking classes so that your future posts have some sense to them. Blasting da udder guy doesn't make a point; it just makes you look silly, since all you have to say is, well, something that blasts the udder guy. Does little to address the points raised -- directly or covertly -- in the arguments or positions you seek to address.
> 
> ...




Ditto, Do not blast the Doc till you have met him personally and heard what he has to offer, even then I wouldn't dare


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## eyebeams (Apr 19, 2005)

.


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## Mark Weiser (Apr 19, 2005)

Since there is only the wife and I now in the house. We are making plans to relocate to a City that has a good Kenpo School. We have narrowed down our choices to two cities. I will keep you informed.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 20, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Communication like this is always tricky. As an educator I recognize learning takes many forms, however obtaining certification or a diploma in the field we practice by "distance" is like become a lifeguard over the internet. I suspect we are more on the same page than not. Thanks much.


I think most would agree with you that obtaining certification/rank, particularly teaching grades soley via video learning/testing is highly questionable. However, for those who have years of formal training already, studying from a mixed distance/seminar and periodic (at least twice monthly) in person class instruction program seems valid - if not ideal.

When I first responded to this thread, It was to give my input on Trevor Haines, whom I knew in college. I did not realize that he was going the video route that seems to be attractive to so many kenpo stylists these days.

As to founding his own style; I'm not sure that his background is any less than the founders of many mainstream styles including EPAK. The question is (that I am not qualified to answer) -does he have the same talent/genius that GM Ed Parker, et al. had? I don't know. He's no phony, but I haven't seen him in nearly twenty years and at the time I lacked the experience to accurately rate his level. He struck me then as a very intelligent and dedicated student who supplemented his karate training with university boxing and judo courses and also was strong in academics. I have no opinion on his "Five Animal" system.

I know your comment was not addressed to me, but as I met him and am a dispassionate observer, I thought I'd comment.


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## Doc (Apr 20, 2005)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> I think most would agree with you that obtaining certification/rank, particularly teaching grades soley via video learning/testing is highly questionable. However, for those who have years of formal training already, studying from a mixed distance/seminar and periodic (at least twice monthly) in person class instruction program seems valid - if not ideal.


Anyone who has had years of GOOD formal traininig wouldn't be interested in attempting to learn by video.


> When I first responded to this thread, It was to give my input on Trevor Haines, whom I knew in college. I did not realize that he was going the video route that seems to be attractive to so many kenpo stylists these days.


Yes, more so than any other style or system. I guess kenpo has less shame than the others, or maybe they genuinely believe it can work. Here's the truth and it is a very simple one. When you learn anything based on just learning the "motions" of the activity, than the "motion" can be learned from a video. So, in that sense it is viable. 

My point is, if what you are learning is "motion," than you haven't learned much. The "motion" system was created from its inception to be commercially viable, and therefore out of necessity, there is a tremendous amount of information not contained therein. The majority of the recognizable Kenpo Masters today came up in the commercial product, and therefore have no sense of comparison. Yes they may be masters of the "motion" art, but that does not transcend style and substance found in the martial arts in general. "Motion" based Kenpo is in fact an anomoly in the martial arts, not the norm. The genius of Ed Parker Sr. made it viable, but no other art before or since is taught that way. That in itself should tell you something. 

When Parker began studying with Chinese Masters, what he learned wasn't based on "motion." When he "dropped" people, or knocked them out, and "slap-checked," and "PAMed," etc. he was not doing "motion." What Parker drew upon for his own art, was never contained in the purposely created "motion" art. The proof is, none of these motion masters move like Parker.


> As to founding his own style; I'm not sure that his background is any less than the founders of many mainstream styles including EPAK.


Well I wouldn't put him up there with Ed Parker Sr. just yet. Especially considering his base kenpo seems to be from the commercial wing.


> The question is (that I am not qualified to answer) -does he have the same talent/genius that GM Ed Parker, et al. had? I don't know. He's no phony, but I haven't seen him in nearly twenty years and at the time I lacked the experience to accurately rate his level. He struck me then as a very intelligent and dedicated student who supplemented his karate training with university boxing and judo courses and also was strong in academics. I have no opinion on his "Five Animal" system.


Well, I doubt it, and if he proves me wrong I'll say so, but it is much easier to play the odds and just say "no way."

Just remember, everyone didn't come up in "motion-kenpo' which is a product essentially of the mid-seventies on. Many of us started in Chinese Kenpo under Parker, which was completely different. While Parker continued until the end working on his Chinese Kenpo, he created and sold "motion-kenpo" which he himself described as a diversion from what he really wanted to do.

The majority that started in his first "Kenpo-Karate," or his shortly thereafter "Chinese Kenpo," never learned his diversion because they knew it lacked substance. People like Steve Hearring are still doing Chinese Kenpo.  However motion-kenpoit has served its purpose well, and for some it has become the norm, instead of the anomoly that it is. Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right. The real science is as complex as that.


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## Mark Weiser (Apr 20, 2005)

*"Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right. The real science is as complex as that."*

:mp5: Video Testing and Certs

Excellent prespective and placing the subject in the correct light. I have done both routes and I tell you the personal touch or instruction of a real person in the same room is not going to be replaced by video unless we get Virtual Reality?


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## Doc (Apr 20, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> *"Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right. The real science is as complex as that."*
> 
> :mp5: Video Testing and Certs
> 
> Excellent prespective and placing the subject in the correct light. I have done both routes and I tell you the personal touch or instruction of a real person in the same room is not going to be replaced by video unless we get Virtual Reality?


Virtual reality. Whoa!


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## kenposikh (Apr 20, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Sure you can study it by video. I'm actually working on my M.D. so I can be a surgeon. I got all my tapes lined up and I'm ready to go. I should have the motions down in know time. You have to understand, I just can't get to medical school so this will have to do. Oh, and when I open up my practice, can I count of some of you guys to be one of my patients? Yes that's right.




No Probs Doc I'll be first in line but can I just try this little magic trick I learnt by watching a magician on TV. All you need to do is lie down in a wooden box and I use a big 2 foot blade to chop youi in half. It's that simple really. 

Have practiced a lot but not had anyone willing to get in the box. I don't know why  :idunno:


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## Doc (Apr 20, 2005)

kenposikh said:
			
		

> No Probs Doc I'll be first in line but can I just try this little magic trick I learnt by watching a magician on TV. All you need to do is lie down in a wooden box and I use a big 2 foot blade to chop youi in half. It's that simple really.
> 
> Have practiced a lot but not had anyone willing to get in the box. I don't know why  :idunno:


Let me know when you perfect it. I'll send you some business. Hell I'll send them anyway china.


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## kenpo_cory (Apr 20, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> I guess that depends on your definition of "... finest teachers ..."
> Most suck. And although a couple may have merit, I'll play the odds and say they suck until proven different.



I gotta say hahahahahahahah on this one. Thats what i admire about ya Doc, youre not afraid to say what you think. I can speak outta experience on this one as someone who has argued with Doc on this forum out of ignorance and been set straight. Also, I didnt know "suck" was a registered traid mark. I better stop using it before i get sued huh.


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## Citius (Apr 20, 2005)

I spoke to Trevor about this thead and he had much to say. I will pass it on to you.

1) He deliberated about even using the word "Kenpo" in the name of his new style. This means he knew the EPAK community would decry him. But his passion was EPAK and it was the basis for his new style but it goes back beyond EPAK.
2)He does not wish that anyone think that the new style "improves" upon EPAK.
3)He does not wish to ever be compared to GMS Ed Parker because it is obvious that he does not, nor does he profess to have GMS Ed Parker's ability to teach nor his skill. He simply decided to create his own style with no qualification whatsoever.
4)I have learned much from Trevor and I enjoy his new style as I began as his student when he still taught only EPAK and have continued with him in his new style.
5)I perhaps made an error even posting in the "kenpo" forum because it has lead to nothing by antagonistic responses. So for that I apologize. I watched Jeff Speakman in a movie and was inspired to take Kenpo in 1997 and Trevor was still teacing EPAK so I joined. Please forgive me.
6) Too all EPAK student and teachers I apologize. My art has the word kenpo in it and I learned much EPAK so I figured I would post my thoughts.
7)I love my Kenpo teachings and I admire the teachings. Perhaps you could forgive the derivation in my art and accept the fact that I love Kenpo and enjoy this forum.

Thank you for your consideration and please forgive me if you think any less of me.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 20, 2005)

Never apologize for having passion; too many of lifes events will try to siphon it out of you without you helping it out. The nature of men is to mess up. The measure of a man is the level to which he owns his *edited* (own stuff), lives the consequences of his actions, and learns from the past to take his integrity in life to the next level. 

 The gesture is meaningful. Now learn, live, and enjoy the ride. It's what we're here for.

 Regards,

 D.


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## Doc (Apr 20, 2005)

Citius said:
			
		

> I spoke to Trevor about this thead and he had much to say. I will pass it on to you.
> 
> 1) He deliberated about even using the word "Kenpo" in the name of his new style. This means he knew the EPAK community would decry him. But his passion was EPAK and it was the basis for his new style but it goes back beyond EPAK.
> 2)He does not wish that anyone think that the new style "improves" upon EPAK.
> ...



Hey speak your mind. You didn't say anything nasty or call anyone a name. You expressed your opinion, and there is nothing wrong with that. We argue all the time with each other, but don't think we're trying attack you personally. What do you think this is, Kenponet?


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## Doc (Apr 20, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Never apologize for having passion; too many of lifes events will try to siphon it out of you without you helping it out. The nature of men is to mess up. The measure of a man is the level to which he owns his shyte, lives the consequences of his actions, and learns from the past to take his integrity in life to the next level.
> 
> The gesture is meaningful. Now learn, live, and enjoy the ride. It's what we're here for.
> 
> ...


Man, that's just beuootiful. I love ya man!


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## Mark Weiser (Apr 20, 2005)

Doc maybe we can model the Virtual Reality Instructor after you? :whip:


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## Doc (Apr 20, 2005)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Doc maybe we can model the Virtual Reality Instructor after you? :whip:


Awwww no you don't. I know a trap when I see it. You're not going to put one of those spandex outfits with the ping pong balls on me. Nope, no way Jose. I knew a fat guy once that put one of those on to do a "motion capture." A seam gave way and the dam suit exploded. Nope! Not me buddy. They already Kilt one fat guy.


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## Mark Weiser (Apr 21, 2005)




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## The Kai (Apr 21, 2005)

) *He deliberated about even using the word "Kenpo" in the name of his new style. This means he knew the EPAK community would decry him. But his passion was EPAK and it was the basis for his new style but it goes back beyond EPAK.
*
How does it goes way back beyond EPAK??

I am glad you are enjoying your Kenpo experience,


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## antec20 (Jun 15, 2005)

TaiChiTJ said:
			
		

> Found a kenpo site i had never heard of:
> 
> http://www.kenpodvd.com/
> 
> ...


 i'm a student of mr. haines. trained with him in the early 1990's when he was Larry Tatum lineage. he even used to hold seminars where he'd bring in Mr. Tatum, which i've attended. he attained his 4th dan from Larry Tatum and then his 6th dan in parker kenpo under someone else. he's been studying wing chun separately since about 1986; so it's about 19 years in that. he teaches the wing chun separately from the 5 animal.

  i also have all of his dvd's to supplement my training. the videos are definitely high quality.

  all i can say is people should meet mr. haines in person before making assumptions. he's very nice and a very good teacher.


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## Bluewolf (Jan 10, 2009)

I was trained by Trevor Haines in Citrus Heights CA.

  Say what you will about him, but i must say this. I have fought many martial artists, and most of them I have defeated as I trained hard in Kenpo my main style and also jujitsu and with partners who trained in kyokoshinkai, some MMA oponents also.
     Out of all the warriors I have come across in my days (which are not so numerous as I am only 26) the only one who completely showed me the true meaning of humility and that my training will never be complete as there is no completion of a warriors training, Trevor Haines is the only one who I have fought who I couldnt even touch.
      Not so much as even a glancing blow. The shame I felt after besting most of his black belts in a round robin tournament only to attempt to spar him with nothing but a lesson well learned was the perfect thing for the warrior ego to experience.
      He is a business man of that i have no doubt. He knows how to make money. But I say if you are to make money, why not do so in the career of your choice and doing something you love.
      He taught me to fight, and when not to fight. How to treat people with decency and respect. How to have confidence in your abilities without being an arrogant fool.
      If nothing else he has made me a better person along with countless others who respected him and admired his talents.
     I know this. That Trevor Haines is a man of honor, a man with a warrior spirit, and a man who deserves respect. 
     I owe my life to him in a way because of the ethics he passed on to me, and the law of the fist that saved me in numerous situations and others that I have protected in my line of work because of the training I recieved from him. He is truly one of the greatest men I have ever known.
    I am on Trevors family tree of black belts as well as Larry Tatums. 
    My name is Adam Thomas and an obvious supporter of Trevor Haines.


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## yorkshirelad (Jan 22, 2009)

Citius said:


> "ANYBODY who gives rank from distance by video, even if you have to show up in person a few times a year, it is only about the money"
> 
> That is a very slanderous statement. You must think you are the wisest person on Earth to know the hearts and minds of every person who has charged a fee for martial arts instruction.


 Slander denotes the spoken word. It is libel that applies to your statement here and again, you are mistaken.

Anyone who begins a distance learning programme in the martial arts is in the business of selling DVDs, not teaching martial arts. I used to get into this argument with a former teacher of mine who had a similar programme and he finally conceded and admitted that selling videos and receiving testing fees were a way of keeping his studio open and taking money.
Don't get me wrong, if you are an experienced martial artist and want to add to your knowledge and repetiore then by all means buy and view DVDs. I myself have a closet full of videos, books and DVDs. Please do not use them as an instructor. A DVD will not correct you, or push you into training the right way. Doesn't the Kenpo BB creed state "to not [sic] divest the gullible onto unprofitable paths". Let's keep this in mind.

Some people do it the right way however. Larry Tatums DVDs are exeptional quality and he doesn't award people rank through the post just because they buy the material. 

You don't have to be "the wisest person on earth" to conclude that someone has produced DVDs for the sole purpose of making money. Using your logic Steven Spielberg produced "Schindler's List" purely to draw attention to the holocaust and the money he made was nonconsequential.

Again, as I have said in previous posts, there is nothing wrong with making money. Just don't do it by deception. Don't promise someone that they will be something that they are cleary not going to be.

Find an instructor who you like and who treats you with respect. If he starts pushing product on you or wants to charge you for merely being in his presence then run the other way and don't look back.

These comments are not libelus, there just opinion based on experience.


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## punisher73 (Feb 2, 2009)

Came across this on youtube, thought I would post it for people to see.  It is some of Haines clips taken from his dvds.

http://www.youtube.com/user/trevorhaines


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 22, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Came across this on youtube, thought I would post it for people to see. It is some of Haines clips taken from his dvds.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/trevorhaines


 
Lots of short, snappy, poppy, dissociated little-man kenpo movements. I guess I'm just partial to big man kenpo, with things like DIRECTIONAL HARMONY and MARRIAGE OF GRAVITY, STRUCTURAL INTEGRITY, ANATOMICAL ALIGNMENT, and ANATOMICAL POSITION combined with CONTROL MANIPULATION and DEPTH PENETRATION leading to STRIKE MANIPULATION. All rather important things in "kenpo, done well", and all missing from an otherwise very pretty demonstration of kenpo karate.


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## Danjo (Jul 22, 2009)

Probably my biggest peeve with those that advocate "distance learning" is when they say "But there are no schools around me/them." 

My reply is "So what?" Who ever said that everyone had to have access to everything? Who ever said that the lack of live training meant that video training had merit? How does one translate into the other logically?

There is no Great Wall of China near me, but watching a video of it doesn't equal actually visiting it.

I never got to train with Professor Chow, Ed Parker, Bruce Lee, Choki Motobu or Sijo Emperado. Does watching a video of them equate to the actual experience? Should people that actually did give me some sort of credit because they feel badly that I missed out on that opportunity? Would I expect them to say, "Poor Dan never had the chance to train with these guys, so let's just give him credit for it because he watched their videos. We'll say it's the same thing." Yeaaaaaaahhhhh Right!

We can't be all places at all times. Blame it on physics. Sorry if you don't live near a school teaching a style you like. Either move or study something else, but don't ask me to pretend that video training has anything to do with live training.


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