# Okinawian Kempo, Shaolin Kenpo, American Kenpo



## phlaw

Hello, I would like some info please.  I would love to train in American Kenpo, but there are currently no schools in the area. I do have Okinawian Kempo and Shaolin Kenpo available to me.  I am wondering which would be closer to American Kenpo?

Through some basic web searches I am guessing Shaolin Kenpo, but I am hoping to hear from people who have trained in each?

Thanks


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## Blindside

Just get the best instructor regardless of style.  If you ever do go on and learn AK you'll have to start over anyway.  

That probably isn't the answer you are looking for, but nothing beats a good instructor.  

Lamont


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## Carol

Agree with what Blindside said.  Find the best teacher.

The technique structure that you would learn in Shaolin Kempo is likely more similar to American Kenpo.  However the mechanics of the Okinawan styles may make for an easier future transition to American Kenpo.


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## Hand Sword

If it is real Okinawan kempo, meaning taught the same way as it is in Okinawa, by a good instructor, go with that style.


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## marlon

I have a bias for shaolin kempo but as others have mentioned the instructor can make all the difference.  Equally important is what you are looking to get out of a style.  Why do you want to start a martial art and what are you looking to gain from it?  these questions can help tremendously in picking a style...anbd even an instructor.  Also, visit the school and pay attention to the higher belts.  How they act with each other and the lower ranks, how the speak of thier style and other styles is a veryt good indicator of who thier teacher is in terms of character.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## arnisador

Carol Kaur said:


> The technique structure that you would learn in Shaolin Kempo is likely more similar to American Kenpo.  However the mechanics of the Okinawan styles may make for an easier future transition to American Kenpo.



I agree with this, though I'd emphasize that the three arts are dissimilar and Okinawan (i.e., Ryukyu) Kempo is essentially unrelated to the other two. Shaolin Kempo may or may not be related to American Kenpo depending on which Shaolin Kempo is meant: Shorinji Kempo is quite different, but the arts of Fred Villari and Ralph Castro bear a closer (though not necessarily admitted) relationship to American Kenpo (see here, to be taken with a grain of salt).

To me, Okinawan Kempo is an easy call here, _all other things being equal_. It's an excellent art. But as stated, the instructor makes a much bigger difference than the art.


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## kidswarrior

arnisador said:


> To me, Okinawan Kempo is an easy call here, _all other things being equal_. It's an excellent art. But as stated, the instructor makes a much bigger difference than the art.


Agreed. Even though my training is Shaolin Kempo.


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## LawDog

Instructors who strive for excellence and have the knowledge needed to do so will make the difference.


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## phlaw

Asking around I am not too impressed with what I have heard of the Okinawian Kempo instructor.  The Shaolin Kenpo instructor is of the Castro lineage.


Thanks


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## John Bishop

phlaw said:


> The Shaolin Kenpo instructor is of the Castro lineage.
> 
> 
> Thanks



That would be something worth looking into to. There's usually some pretty solid people from that lineage.


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## LocknBlock

Well about the Castro lineage, one might have to do more research,cause they were more known for their 'katas' then their fighting. a friend from Hawaii recommended a man named Bill Chun Jr. who actually trained with Prof. Chow and finished his training, you see he lived at his house to train on a continuous basis( at night with no lights) this developes one's sensitivity where you feel the attack rather then see it, when you see him teach you know that it is more combat oriented then what is seen at most 'tournaments'. My friend had a long conversation with him at a recent 'Kajukenbo' luau in California and his cousin's step-dad is Bobby Lowe. I am from Hawaii born in the 50's, grew up in the 60's, so guys like my friend, Bill Chun Jr. and myself grew up seeing the real deal, heck I took Judo at Palama Settlement, heck there were real escrima matches in Hawaii where the loser went home hurt, their were real underground kumite like 'Bloodsport' or like human 'cockfights', rural Hawaii in the 50's and 60's was little bit like Philippines is now a mixture of the old and the new. Make sure before you start training that you actually check out the instructor's lineage because many are in it for the money and the glory but are not really that good. So check out everything you can before you train !! Remember your gi or belt will not do the fighting it will be you that will be fighting if you ever get in a situation where you have to truly defend yourself, so get as much of the realistic training as possible. Aloha


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## John Bishop

Good advice.  But the big problem with that is, Bill Chun Jr. lives in No. Calif, and phlaw lives in Fargo, No. Dakota. There's probably not a lot of old time Hawaiian stylists in Fargo.


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## Karatedrifter7

Is Okinawan Kenpo another name for Shorin Ryu? I thought I read that somwhere. Or is it a different style altogether from it?


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## John Bishop

Karatedrifter7 said:


> Is Okinawan Kenpo another name for Shorin Ryu? I thought I read that somwhere. Or is it a different style altogether from it?



Just about any Okinawan karate style can be called "Kempo".  To the Okinawan's, "Kempo" just meant the systems roots came from China.  Goju Ryu, Shorin Ryu, Shorei Ryu, have all been referred to as "Kempo" in the past.


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## Danjo

If it says, Shaolin KeMpo, be very very careful. Most of it isn't worth training in IMO. I understand that there are exceptions to this, but you need to really check them out and watch the prices.


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## TheArtofDave

The school I use to train at in 2003 has grown but separated into 2 classes. Monday I'm wearing my gi, and I'm going to learn Ryukyu Kempo. And I will also learn Arnis with it. I watched a class last night, and love it. Very practical, and very painful with the pressure points. I love the philosophy behind the art as well. I look up and research everything but in my New Years resolution to be more active, and get back into martial arts, and stick with it. I'm going with Ryukyu Kempo. Except I get a week to decide if its what I want, and if their class wants me. So I'm going to be a sponge, and pay attention to class, and hope they add me as another addition.


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## shihansmurf

As many others have said go with the school that has the best instructor. The system isn't nearly as important as having a good teacher.

Visit the schools and ask questions. If you can observe a few classes, focus on the intermediate to advanced students. Watch how they move and perform. The beginners in a class are usually a mixed bag, but the people that have been with a teacher for a while will show you a lot about that instructor. See if their stances are solid, how smooth their footwork is, if they generate good power behind their punches and kicks, and if you get the chance, how well they spar.

Don't concern yourself too much about how the teacher moves. You aren't hiring a bodyguard or stuntman. Look at the students he has trained for awhile and you'll see the fruits of his teaching ability.

Observe also the atmosphere of the school and see if it is a place that you would be comfortable training. The best school and teacher in the world won't do anything for you if it isn't a place that you want to go. I make a list of things I look for before I go and evaluate the school to see how closely it matches what I am looking for. I like a relaxed atmosphere, no contracts, medium to heavy contact in sparring(headgear though, I've had a skull fracture so I am more carefull about contact than when I was younger), a good conditioning element during the class sessions, limited amounts of transplanted Japanese/Chinese culture, and clean facilities.

However your list forms up, make sure that the school you choose matches as closely as possible to it.

If you keep the above in mind you will find a school that fits you and that you will have a good experience with irrespective of the system. 

Hope this helps a bit,
Mark


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## Black/Red Block

WHAT is the difference between Kenpo(Kempo) Jujitsu AND Kenpo Karate. As far as I can see its just a "Label" to entice students. Kenpo is Kenpo so why does it need the extra addition. You wouldn't find Karate Karate or Karate Jujitsu, or even, Jujitsu Jujitsu or Jujitsu Karate so why the need

Please don't mention "Legal reasons yadda yadda yadda", because how can you copyright anything that has exisited centuries prior to today etc.


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## Gentle Fist

Black/Red Block said:


> WHAT is the difference between Kenpo(Kempo) Jujitsu AND Kenpo Karate. As far as I can see its just a "Label" to entice students. Kenpo is Kenpo so why does it need the extra addition. You wouldn't find Karate Karate or Karate Jujitsu, or even, Jujitsu Jujitsu or Jujitsu Karate so why the need
> 
> Please don't mention "Legal reasons yadda yadda yadda", because how can you copyright anything that has exisited centuries prior to today etc.



James Mitose named his style of Kenpo; Kenpo Jujutsu.  His student William Chow called his style of Kenpo; Kenpo Karate.  As years went on and more people tended to follow Chow over Mitose, who was in Prison for conspiracy to Murder; and the use of the name Kenpo Karate became more of the norm.

Virtually they are the same.  The head of each Kenpo fraction determine wether to use "karate", "jujutsu" or what ever else they can think of.


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## Blindside

Black/Red Block said:


> WHAT is the difference between Kenpo(Kempo) Jujitsu AND Kenpo Karate. As far as I can see its just a "Label" to entice students. Kenpo is Kenpo so why does it need the extra addition. You wouldn't find Karate Karate or Karate Jujitsu, or even, Jujitsu Jujitsu or Jujitsu Karate so why the need



Because in general, nobody knows what the heck "Kenpo" is, and that is just a bad marketing idea.


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## Gentle Fist

Blindside said:


> Because in general, nobody knows what the heck "Kenpo" is, and that is just a bad marketing idea.



In a nutshell... That would be correct


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## Black/Red Block

Gentle Fist said:


> In a nutshell... That would be correct



I agree to a point but if it wasn't for the addage of the Gracies etc and UFC I would never had heard of Jiu Jitsu. I think this is why some Schools "changed" their names from Kenpo Karate to Kenpo Jujitsu to take use of the new fad towards Jujitsu training.

If we take FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) they don't call it Pinoy Kung Fu or Pinoy Karate or Muay Pinoy (Like the Muay Thai) they call it Escrima, Doces Pares or Mano Mano etc. they don't need it and this STILL gets enough followers. OK you could say Dan Inosanto is one of the reasons that FMA has come to the forefront BUT Elvis Presley who was one of Master Ed Parker's Direct students was definately a more famous practitioner than Dan. 

I just think its pointless to have the addage of the name and Kenpoists SHOULD be proud of calling it what it is and that is just "Kenpo"

Even Funakoshi Sensei (founder of Shotokan) used to call his system Okinawan kenpo prior to calling it Karate mainly because of the Kanji etc.


So Many reasons why it should be called just Kenpo, not enough reasons to keep the Karate/Jujitsu Tag, look at Kanjukenbo


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## Blindside

Black/Red Block said:


> I agree to a point but if it wasn't for the addage of the Gracies etc and UFC I would never had heard of Jiu Jitsu. I think this is why some Schools "changed" their names from Kenpo Karate to Kenpo Jujitsu to take use of the new fad towards Jujitsu training.



Actually it is from the '40s when Judo and Jujutsu known far better than karate or kenpo.  Mitose wrote a book in the '40s called "What is Self Defense (Kenpo Jiu-jitsu).  There is also a fairly sound argument that Danzan-ryu jujutsu had a heavy influence on the kenpo of the time, so it would actually make sense.  




> If we take FMA (Filipino Martial Arts) they don't call it Pinoy Kung Fu or Pinoy Karate or Muay Pinoy (Like the Muay Thai) they call it Escrima, Doces Pares or Mano Mano etc. they don't need it and this STILL gets enough followers.



Well, when I say I do Kali, nobody knows what the hell I am talking about, but I don't care because my livelihood isn't dependent on putting people on my training floor.  But just so you know, some Filipino lineages (including Doce Pares) use the term "Combat Judo" with regard to portions of the empty hand vs. weapon techniques.  Why?  So that people knew what they were selling.  



> I just think its pointless to have the addage of the name and Kenpoists SHOULD be proud of calling it what it is and that is just "Kenpo"



To be honest I don't care, kenpo by itself is such a mutt of a group of Japanese/Hawaiian/Chinese/lineages that it doesn't mean anything.  How would you define it "stuff that got sort of organized in Hawaii?"  Or by "kenpo" do you mean just Ed Parker lineage kenpo where he called his stuff "Kenpo jujitsu," "Kenpo Karate," "Chinese Kenpo," and "American Kenpo," over his lifetime?


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## shima

Blindside said:


> To be honest I don't care, kenpo by itself is such a mutt of a group of Japanese/Hawaiian/Chinese/lineages that it doesn't mean anything.  How would you define it "stuff that got sort of organized in Hawaii?"  Or by "kenpo" do you mean just Ed Parker lineage kenpo where he called his stuff "Kenpo jujitsu," "Kenpo Karate," "Chinese Kenpo," and "American Kenpo," over his lifetime?



I study Shaolin Kenpo and when anyone asks my instructor about the origin of Kenpo, he explains how it ultimately started in Hawaii with influences from both Japanese and Chinese martial arts. It is a mutt in the martial arts world, but there's nothing wrong with that in my opinion. If anything it makes it better and all the more interesting


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## shima

And now that I've moved to Austin where Shaolin Kenpo from the Castro branch does not exist, looks like I'm going to be switching to American Kenpo going forward  Going back and forth a bit between January - March, but after end of March I'm full time Austin which means full time training in American Kenpo and then at that point just practicing my Shaolin Kenpo on my own remotely. 

Was supposed to test for Student Black Belt in Shaolin Kenpo this past December 2015, but I'm pregnant so they postponed it... if I can keep up my curriculum for end of next year they said I could fly back and test though... 

American Kenpo though is quite different curriculum wise but at least fundamentally very similar.


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## mdavidg

Shima, don't you have any Kosho Ryu schools in Austin? I thought I saw one or two. I would study Kosho Ryu any day over the watered down arts that Ed Parker branded as his own. It's not what William Chow taught and definitely not what James MItose share with most of the U.S. There are other schools too. Just stay away from Parker. I was in Asia a few years back and had a chat with a blackbelt in Kempo. He told me that the only Kempo they even consider close to what they teach is Kosho Ryu. Since then, a few other styles of Kempo/Kenpo have popped up but Kosho Ryu is growing slowly but steadily. I think the Tracy's saw the severe flaw in the Parker system as he had deviated greatly from what he had been taught. If you can't find Kosho Ryu then go for a Tracy school.


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## Touch Of Death

Blindside said:


> Because in general, nobody knows what the heck "Kenpo" is, and that is just a bad marketing idea.


I disagree. Kenpo is just one of those words that needs a title. Like recipe... What recipe? See?


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## Ironbear24

I have never heard of shaolin kenpo and I really question the legitimacy of anything with shaolin in front of it. Especially if it is before of a more Japanese style.


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## Flying Crane

Ironbear24 said:


> I have never heard of shaolin kenpo and I really question the legitimacy of anything with shaolin in front of it. Especially if it is before of a more Japanese style.


I agree, it's inappropriate.  There are at least a couple different Kenpo/kempo groups that use it.  Some have a better reputation than others.  But still use of the word in this way is inappropriate.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ironbear24 said:


> I have never heard of shaolin kenpo and I really question the legitimacy of anything with shaolin in front of it. Especially if it is before of a more Japanese style.


*Warning*: This is a lot of information that is all somewhat interelated, so it may not be the most cohesive explanation. My apologies.
I explained in another thread about a month ago the differences as someone who has practiced both Shaolin Kempo Karate(SKK for convenience) and a form of Okinawan Kenpo, but will re-explain it here/link a resource here. There is also Shaolin Kenpo, which is different than SKK, and I will go into both.
Brief answer before I begin: The addition of Shaolin in the front is there for a legitimate (according to the founders) reason.
SKK, Shaolin Kenpo and Ed Parker Kenpo are somewhat related but all different styles. SKK and Shaolin Kenpo only share a similar name with Japanese kenpo and are not directly related. Shaolin Kenpo is derived from Shaolinquan and American Kenpo, while SKK is derived from American kenpo with a focus on shaolin animal philosophy.
So first, read through this ISKA [Shaolin Kenpo FAQs], specifically FAQ 3 and 8. Additionally, Ralph Castro trained in Honolulu as a student of Chow, and was part of the same club as Ed Parker. Due to this the two styles are similar since they have a similar background.
The only correction to the SKK part that I would make is that Villari learned from Nick Cerio, who learned both from George Pesare, whom it mentions, and Ed Parker, whom I don't think it mentions. Nick Cerio adapted Ed Parker kenpo to include shotokan karate forms.

To go more into detail about SKK, since that is the one I know: SKK was formed by Fred Villari, who trained under Nick Cerio and other instructors, becoming a 5th degree in Kenpo. He also went to the Caribbean (I believe, it's not important and annoying to find so don't feel like fact checking the location), and while he was there trained with local martial artists. These martial artists were practitioners of a local form of karate and a form of Kung Fu-I am unsure which one. He taught them kenpo, and in return they taught him both various techniques of their styles and the philosophies from their styles. He then took all three and created his own system that uses adapted kenpo for its techniques (similar to Cerio), adapted karate for many of its forms (IIRC almost the same as Cerio), and adapted Kung fu (different than Cerio) for its higher level forms and philosophy. Specifically, SKK has a 'five animal' philosophy, where each technique captures the essence of one of the five animals. Practitioners figure out as they train what animal(s) philosophy they fit best with, and focus on developing those techniques the most. Because of this combination he titled the style Shaolin Kempo Karate, and it forever gets confused with Shaolin Kenpo, which is explained in the link above.

There's also a whole thing about people having issues with Villari's teaching method, his claims, etc. and those people breaking away from him (my school included) but continued with SKK in their own fashion, but that's in-style politics that would bore anyone.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

If anyone has heard anything different than what I have stated, please state so. I have heard a lot of conflicting information about the origins, and from my own research, the above is the most accurate/most consistent info that I have heard. However it might be wrong.
Additionally, many people will claim all SKK are McDojos. I have been to 3 SKK schools (trained at 2 visited 1) of slightly different lineages, along with non SKK schools, and the training in all of them were as legitimate or more so than schools I've seen of other styles. I have not been to a Villari school, so I have no knowledge on whether or not those are legitimate or Mcdojos.


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## Buka

kempodisciple said:


> If anyone has heard anything different than what I have stated, please state so. I have heard a lot of conflicting information about the origins, and from my own research, the above is the most accurate/most consistent info that I have heard. However it might be wrong.
> Additionally, many people will claim all SKK are McDojos. I have been to 3 SKK schools (trained at 2 visited 1) of slightly different lineages, along with non SKK schools, and the training in all of them were as legitimate or more so than schools I've seen of other styles. I have not been to a Villari school, so I have no knowledge on whether or not those are legitimate or Mcdojos.




You'll never hear me speak badly about someone in Martial Arts.....except Fred Villari. I know that offends some people, but I don't care. I've been in the arts too long to stay quiet about such a reprehensible person.

I knew Ed Parker, trained with him a bunch and he helped me a lot. I'm still friends with a group of his old time students to this day. I trained some with Nick Cerrio, too. My wife and I were friends with his second wife, Kelly, from South Africa. I trained with a few of Nick's black belts back in the day. Good men, all of them. George Pessare taught me how to fight. His old school on Branch Ave in Providence (early seventies) was like the movie Fight Club. I know that sounds like B.S, but it's not. I have never seen anything like it since. And don't really care to, to tell the truth. But it made us what we are today and for that I will always be thankful. George also introduced me to one of my instructors, Joe Lewis. I first trained with Joe right there at Georges.

Villari did make Black Belt under Nick. Upon reaching second Dan, he left to go on his own. At the time, he was working for the father of one of my brown belts, Jackie Connelly. I believe he was a draftsman, but could be wrong, I don't remember anymore. The day after making his second black - he gave his notice at work and told folks he was off to open karate schools and make millions of dollars. He promoted himself to tenth degree. His world headquarters during his business reign is about two miles from where I sit right now, typing this. And, man, he made some serious millions

Although I'm not a Kenpo student, I've trained in a lot of Kenpo schools. All we did was fight. I absolutely loved it. I probably have more Kenpo friends than you do. (because I'm OLD and have been around it longer -probably)

Villari had a lot of schools, a lot. And some of them had some good training.....but that's because he wasn't there much.

Anyway, sorry to be so long winded.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Buka said:


> Villari did make Black Belt under Nick. Upon reaching second Dan, he left to go on his own. At the time, he was working for the father of one of my brown belts, Jackie Connelly. I believe he was a draftsman, but could be wrong, I don't remember anymore. The day after making his second black - he gave his notice at work and told folks he was off to open karate schools and make millions of dollars. He promoted himself to tenth degree. His world headquarters during his business reign is about two miles from where I sit right now, typing this. And, man, he made some serious millions


This is really interesting. I'd always heard that he studied away from Nick Cerio until he got his 5th degree before self promoting. Still dislike the self promotion, but a 5th to 10th in his own style was less bad than a 2nd to 10th in his own style. Both are something I dislike about the overall founder of SKK.



> Although I'm not a Kenpo student, I've trained in a lot of Kenpo schools. All we did was fight. I absolutely loved it. I probably have more Kenpo friends than you do. (because I'm OLD and have been around it longer -probably)


You almost definitely do. As for the schools I've gone to, we spend half the classes fighting (from the stories I've heard not as much or as intensely as they used to) and half of them working on self defense. It's a great combination of the two 



> Villari had a lot of schools, a lot. And some of them had some good training.....but that's because he wasn't there much.


 Luckily more and more schools have gone away from Villari. It's a wonderful thing.



> Anyway, sorry to be so long winded.


 Not at all! It's really rare to hear from someone who directly trained with Ed Parker/George Pesare/Nick Cerio. I find the history of this lineage (not just villari but new england kenpo in general) really interesting, and also really tough to find accurate info on, so incredibly glad you responded.


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## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> I have never heard of shaolin kenpo and I really question the legitimacy of anything with shaolin in front of it. Especially if it is before of a more Japanese style.


Can't everyone trace back to Daruma? Even though I think it is hog-wash.


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## Ironbear24

Touch Of Death said:


> Can't everyone trace back to Daruma? Even though I think it is hog-wash.



I've seen some advertising for "Shoalin TaeKwonDo" like seriously. Throw shoalin in front of anything for that more dramatic appeal. Way to take advantage of the history the shaolin have with martial arts.


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## Touch Of Death

Ironbear24 said:


> I've seen some advertising for "Shoalin TaeKwonDo" like seriously. Throw shoalin in front of anything for that more dramatic appeal. Way to take advantage of the history the shaolin have with martial arts.


The whole story sounds fishy. Shaolin was a training compound, and all, but the idea that there were no martial arts before them is laughable.


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## hoshin1600

Maybe Buka can verify this if true, 
I studied in the SKK system as a young teen. If my memory is correct Villari started as United studios of self defense. When I first started Charles Mattera was in the organization then the two separated and Charlie kept that name and Villari opened his "studios of self defense"
There has been lots of organization hopping through the years, to the point where to me everything looks the same. I went to a Cerio instructor for a time and it was the exact same material.
 In the 90s the entire board of directors left the Villari organization and started "masters of self defense"  
While many do not like Villari here in central Massachusetts and beyond  you would be hard pressed to find a kenpo school that didn't start as a Villari school.


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## Buka

hoshin1600 said:


> Maybe Buka can verify this if true,
> I studied in the SKK system as a young teen. If my memory is correct Villari started as United studios of self defense. When I first started Charles Mattera was in the organization then the two separated and Charlie kept that name and Villari opened his "studios of self defense"
> There has been lots of organization hopping through the years, to the point where to me everything looks the same. I went to a Cerio instructor for a time and it was the exact same material.
> In the 90s the entire board of directors left the Villari organization and started "masters of self defense"
> While many do not like Villari here in central Massachusetts and beyond  you would be hard pressed to find a kenpo school that didn't start as a Villari school.



Yes United Studios of Self Defense. Right here in Dedham MA. I'm not sure when and how the splits took place. I remember the name changes but not who and where.

Also, I have no grudge or bad feelings about anyone who trained under him. One of my first instructors was just as bad as he was, just not as successful business wise.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

hoshin1600 said:


> Maybe Buka can verify this if true,
> I studied in the SKK system as a young teen. If my memory is correct Villari started as United studios of self defense. When I first started Charles Mattera was in the organization then the two separated and Charlie kept that name and Villari opened his "studios of self defense"


My information about this is likely to have a bias, but from what I know Mattera believed Villari had to big of an ego and was taking money he didnt deserve, and Villari believed that Mattera should show him more respect as his instructor (and probably should give him more money). That blew up into multiple fights leading to the split you're talking about.


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## Buka

I just dug into the back of my closet where old boxes go to die. Found something I think you Kempo guys will get a kick out of. I'll bring it to work and see if I can get it scanned.


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## Blindside

Buka said:


> I just dug into the back of my closet where old boxes go to die. Found something I think you Kempo guys will get a kick out of. I'll bring it to work and see if I can get it scanned.


Tease!


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## JowGaWolf

I've never heard of shoalin kempo before. When I see that my brain translate it as chinese Japanese martial art. In my mind these two things cannot exist together unless it has a new name to describe the combination of two fighting systems. Even then I would be cautious.
I've seen videos of people trying to mix the two and it always comes out wrong meaning you will never be good with shaolin and you'll never be good with kempo and 90% of what you'll learn will probably be garbage.  Either take Shaolin or Kempo but never something called. Shoalin Kempo


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## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> I've never heard of shoalin kempo before. When I see that my brain translate it as chinese Japanese martial art. In my mind these two things cannot exist together unless it has a new name to describe the combination of two fighting systems. Even then I would be cautious.
> I've seen videos of people trying to mix the two and it always comes out wrong meaning you will never be good with shaolin and you'll never be good with kempo and 90% of what you'll learn will probably be garbage.  Either take Shaolin or Kempo but never something called. Shoalin Kempo


It is just a name ya slap on a sign, relax. LOL


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## Touch Of Death

This America! I can open a school called, "Panda Kenpo" and it will do ok with the kids. Does not a rose by any other name, smell as sweet?


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## JowGaWolf

Touch Of Death said:


> It is just a name ya slap on a sign, relax. LOL


Here's a description from a Shaolin Kempo Karate school "Shaolin Kempo Karate is a unique system of Self-Defense with the combined structure Shaolin Kung-Fu, Kempo Karate, and Jiu-jitsu. Through this combination you can effectively learn to protect yourself against any harmful situation as well as learn discipline, self-control, self-esteem, confidence and a positive way to good health...."
Source:Shaolin Kempo Karate Martial Arts Classes in Shepherdsville, Kentucky

Here's a wikipedia entry about Shaoline Kempo Karate
"Shaolin Kempo Karate (or "SKK") is a martial art style that combines the Five Animals of Shaolin Kung Fu, the core competency of Kempo, the hard-hitting linear explosiveness of traditional Karate, as well as the power of Western boxing and the felling and grappling arts of Jujutsu, Chin Na, and Mongolian wrestling.[1] This system was founded and developed by Fredrick J. Villari (a former black belt student of Nick Cerio and William Kwai Sun Chow),[2][3] who devised a hybrid system which integrated the four ways of fighting: striking, kicking, felling, and grappling to eliminate the inherent weakness of martial arts systems that focus on just one or two of fighting techniques."

Here's another description from another Shaolin Kempo School
"The art of Shaolin Kempo Karate has developed from numerous styles of the martial arts including Shaolin Temple Boxing, Jiu Jitsu, 
Kung Fu, Kempo, different styles of Karate, as well as the secret art of the White Tiger (Chin Na). Each fighting system offers 
something both unique and special, but each also has its weaknesses that make a fighter vulnerable."

Sei Ping Kuen (Kyun) is the name of a Jow Ga Form. There are other kung fu systems that have a similar name. And each kung fu system can recognize each their own version.  This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together.  You end up with  a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu.  I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong.  The forms that he's doing has no real world application




So while you may think it's just a name.  Sometimes the martial art is just as it says on the door.


----------



## JowGaWolf

This is actual Shaolin Kempo forms so I'm guessing this is what you can expect










This is a video of the founder of Shaolin Kempo


----------



## Touch Of Death

Well, in the first vid, the foot positionings were lazy if not terrible.


----------



## Buka

JowGaWolf said:


> This is actual Shaolin Kempo forms so I'm guessing this is what you can expect
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a video of the founder of Shaolin Kempo



Not the Kempo I know or ever saw.


----------



## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's a description from a Shaolin Kempo Karate school "Shaolin Kempo Karate is a unique system of Self-Defense with the combined structure Shaolin Kung-Fu, Kempo Karate, and Jiu-jitsu. Through this combination you can effectively learn to protect yourself against any harmful situation as well as learn discipline, self-control, self-esteem, confidence and a positive way to good health...."
> Source:Shaolin Kempo Karate Martial Arts Classes in Shepherdsville, Kentucky
> 
> Here's a wikipedia entry about Shaoline Kempo Karate
> "Shaolin Kempo Karate (or "SKK") is a martial art style that combines the Five Animals of Shaolin Kung Fu, the core competency of Kempo, the hard-hitting linear explosiveness of traditional Karate, as well as the power of Western boxing and the felling and grappling arts of Jujutsu, Chin Na, and Mongolian wrestling.[1] This system was founded and developed by Fredrick J. Villari (a former black belt student of Nick Cerio and William Kwai Sun Chow),[2][3] who devised a hybrid system which integrated the four ways of fighting: striking, kicking, felling, and grappling to eliminate the inherent weakness of martial arts systems that focus on just one or two of fighting techniques."
> 
> Here's another description from another Shaolin Kempo School
> "The art of Shaolin Kempo Karate has developed from numerous styles of the martial arts including Shaolin Temple Boxing, Jiu Jitsu,
> Kung Fu, Kempo, different styles of Karate, as well as the secret art of the White Tiger (Chin Na). Each fighting system offers
> something both unique and special, but each also has its weaknesses that make a fighter vulnerable."
> 
> Sei Ping Kuen (Kyun) is the name of a Jow Ga Form. There are other kung fu systems that have a similar name. And each kung fu system can recognize each their own version.  This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together.  You end up with  a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu.  I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong.  The forms that he's doing has no real world application
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So while you may think it's just a name.  Sometimes the martial art is just as it says on the door.


Not my cup of Koolaid.


----------



## hoshin1600

JowGaWolf said:


> This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together. You end up with a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu. I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong. The forms that he's doing has no real world application



never thought i would see the day i was defending kenpo but....
you do remember all karate started in China,   saying someones martial art is "all wrong"  and posting a few vids you think are horrible is not a rabbit hole i would want to go down.


----------



## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> never thought i would see the day i was defending kenpo but....
> you do remember all karate started in China,   saying someones martial art is "all wrong"  and posting a few vids you think are horrible is not a rabbit hole i would want to go down.


I can see bad footwork, no center line adherence, and some nosebleed rank; so, I will be your Elmer Fud.


----------



## hoshin1600

here is the same kata done in a different style





some changes but i could pull lots of clips of the same kata from different styles and all will look a little different


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Jowgawolf-Going to comment on the videos separately. However, while SKK (not SK) was created by Villari, most people have split from him and taken the art in a very different direction, so videos of him are not a good way to judge Shaolin Kempo.
If you go to around the second page of this thread, I explained why it is called Shaolin Kempo Karate, and why Shaolin Kenpo is called that. You're free to dislike the art, many do, but that should explain how/why they are called what they are.


----------



## hoshin1600

Touch Of Death said:


> I can see bad footwork, no center line adherence, and some nosebleed rank; so, I will be your Elmer Fud.


im not saying the clip was a good kata preformance,  i am pointing out that a blend of martial art from both Japanese and Chinese does not equate a poor system in fact ALL Okinawan styles are exactly that. a blend between Chinese and Okinawan arts


----------



## hoshin1600

kempodisciple said:


> Jowgawolf-those videos you posted are not anything that I have seen in Shaolin Kempo.


well in fact both Villari and Cerio used the following kata for white to black ranks (the names where changed so i will use the original Okinawan names.
Taikyoku shodan
Taikyoku nidan
Pinan sandan
PInan Yondan 
Pinan Godan


----------



## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> im not saying the clip was a good kata preformance,  i am pointing out that a blend of martial art from both Japanese and Chinese does not equate a poor system in fact ALL Okinawan styles are exactly that. a blend between Chinese and Okinawan arts


While obviously influenced, the brand of kenpo I do, and of that "Tenth Degree", doesn not claim Okinawan origin.


----------



## hoshin1600

Touch Of Death said:


> While obviously influenced, the brand of kenpo I do, and of that "Tenth Degree", doesn not claim Okinawan origin.


no but for years the sign on the wall and the marketing said " a blend of karate and kung-fu"  or Japanese and chinese arts.  these are the same beginer forms created by Anku Itosu and taught in Shotokan buy Funakoshi..  albiet with modifications,, but then Funakoshi modified Itosu's forms so who is to say what is right and wrong and who has authorization to do so.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> This is actual Shaolin Kempo forms so I'm guessing this is what you can expect
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a video of the founder of Shaolin Kempo


First, I have never seen anything like what is done in any of those videos.
For the first video: In my school we do learn pinan's, but pinan godan is something we would not have learned at brown belt. It is done differently then how it is performed at my school (I may include a video of me doing a pinan, but that would first require me to find a camera and wait for the snow to melt so I can do it outside). Also, the person doing it seemed to have no energy, and I've never seen a brown belt do any movement with that kind of laziness, especially if they are being taped for a demonstration.
For the second video: Have never seen that, or heard of that form, but it may be something that I have not learned yet since he is a black belt, and I can't see the degree (I am only a 1st degree). Once again, he is incredibly lazy, and clearly has no knowledge of how to appropriately shift his body through the movements. If he was at either of the SKK schools I trained at, I can almost guarantee he would not have become a black belt with that level of performance of anything.
For the final video: This is more similar to what we practice, however it reminds me of why I dislike Villari/why we turned from him. In my school we do half fighting, half self defense techniques, but the techniques have evolved multiple times as we always try them on resisting opponents and adapt them to fit ourselves. If we discover a way to more effectively perform a technique, without compromising what the technique is trying to teach, we will show our head instructor and he may change how he teaches it (does not happen often but sometimes). This happens in both schools that I have gone to, and due to it I've seen the same technique performed by people visiting from different schools and seen almost entirely different techniques. That video makes me doubt that he has ever tried them against a resisting opponent, or even knows how to throw or disarm (look at 1:28) someone in a semi-effective manner. Sadly, despite him being the founder, I do not think he would get even close to black belt with the level of skill shown in the video at either school. I have no idea if the schools that I go to are different quality wise then most of SKK, which might explain why both broke off from their parent organization, but it is not representative of what I have seen. If this is representative of SKK in general, then I am no longer confused about the reputation it has beyond Villari.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JowGaWolf said:


> Here's another description from another Shaolin Kempo School
> "The art of Shaolin Kempo Karate has developed from numerous styles of the martial arts including Shaolin Temple Boxing, Jiu Jitsu,
> Kung Fu, Kempo, different styles of Karate, as well as the secret art of the White Tiger (Chin Na). Each fighting system offers
> something both unique and special, but each also has its weaknesses that make a fighter vulnerable."


I am not aware of any shaolin temple boxing or Chin Na in SKK. For Kung Fu, there are some higher level Kung Fu forms I have not yet learned, but for the most part what it takes from Kung Fu is looking at the five animals in (I believe) Hung Ga, and using those animals to help people understand what techniques will be most useful to them. This is a really useful addition to the art IMHO.
But as for the original description, I call baloney on that schools claims.



> Sei Ping Kuen (Kyun) is the name of a Jow Ga Form. There are other kung fu systems that have a similar name. And each kung fu system can recognize each their own version.  This is what it looks like when someone mixes Kung Fu and Karate Together. You end up with a system that doesn't do justice to either Karate or Kung Fu.  I believe this particular video took stuff out of Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun form and the kung fu that is applied here is done completely wrong.  The forms that he's doing has no real world application
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So while you may think it's just a name.  Sometimes the martial art is just as it says on the door.


Was this form incorporated into SKK, or are you just using it as an example? I don't see any reference in the video to SKK and don't recognize the form. I also couldn't find anything about it and kempo/kenpo in a cursory google search. No idea what it is supposed to look like in either system, so cant comment on it.


----------



## hoshin1600

so what is a style?   for the sake of this conversation i want to give you my definition. i liken it to a style of music.  you have jazz, rock, blues, country, techno, death metal, rap, gansta rap, and so on.
using that analogy i look at martial arts in the same way and ask myself , how does this art feel?  the feeling between gansta rap and blues are very far apart but you can tell classic rock was born out of the blues. is Jimmy page a rock musician or a blues guitarist? 
when i look at the various renditions of kenpo i get the same feeling from them all.  its not the curriculum.  its the feeling and mannerisms that are passed down.  like how your father and mother did certain things that you have ingrained into your self totally without knowing. but your spouse is more than willing to point out , you sound just like your mother.
i see the same mannerisms from Ed Parker , nick cerio , fred villari, kajukenbo, karazenpo goshinjitsu,...whoever and whatever you want to call it, if it has roots to Hawaii, to me it feels the same.   for years and years long before the internet, kenpo instructors of each art would bash the others and say " oh thats crap we are totally different"   well to me.. no you were not any different.  go to different kenpo schools then visit an okinawan school or a Kyokushinkai school and you will instantly know the difference between the feelings.
as frustrating and annoying as MT can be for me, im glad i found it and participated.  i no longer will bash kenpo.  what i say now is, that kenpo does not fit in with *my *martial art philosphy and how i practice.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Finally, the claim that if you combine two arts (in this case shaolin Kung Fu and kenpo) will result in not learning either art and ending up with garbage is a claim I would disagree with heavily. Many arts have come about by someone learning two arts and finding a way to effectively combine them. Regardless of your opinion of SKK (and from the videos you posted I can definitely understand it) I would disagree with that generalized claim. The most obvious example to me is JKD, which combines multiple arts and ended up with a very effective system.


----------



## hoshin1600

kempodisciple said:


> First, I have never seen anything like what is done in any of those videos.



i would also like to point out that the Kenpo as done in Hawaii never had any forms.  that being said everyone and their brother created, borrowed and stole forms and added them to whatever curriculum they were teaching.  many were tossed out as well over time and replaced with whatever that individual felt like doing.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

hoshin1600 said:


> i would also like to point out that the Kenpo as done in Hawaii never had any forms.  that being said everyone and their brother created, borrowed and stole forms and added them to whatever curriculum they were teaching.  many were tossed out as well over time and replaced with whatever that individual felt like doing.


Villari admitted entirely that he stole forms from Karate and utilized them in his system. It's where the 'Karate' in Shaolin kempo karate is from, and he never claimed Kenpo had forms. It's a very good thing to point out though, as people ignore the last K and assume he only combined Shaolin martial arts and Kenpo.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

hoshin1600 said:


> well in fact both Villari and Cerio used the following kata for white to black ranks (the names where changed so i will use the original Okinawan names.
> Taikyoku shodan
> Taikyoku nidan
> Pinan sandan
> PInan Yondan
> Pinan Godan


I edited my original post earlier and just saw this now - what I meant was I've never seen a pinan performed in this way. Way to sloppy and done without knowledge of basic principles


----------



## JowGaWolf

I'm not sure about anyone else but this is a technique that I drill all the time. In kung fu there is really only one way to perform this technique and that is to move off center.  Doing this technique correctly will mean that there's no opportunity for them to kick you or elbow you, especially after they are in pain from a broken rib or out of breath from the punch landing. This technique is common in kung fu but the way that he's showing it is all wrong.  It makes the assumption that there is going to be a sleeve to grab.  Had he not grabbed the sleeve he would have had the hand free to punch the face.




You have to be really careful when you take these new martial art systems that are combining multiple martial arts techniques from different fighting systems and calling it something that's a combination name.


----------



## JowGaWolf

hoshin1600 said:


> never thought i would see the day i was defending kenpo but....
> you do remember all karate started in China,   saying someones martial art is "all wrong"  and posting a few vids you think are horrible is not a rabbit hole i would want to go down.


I'm not worried about it. I'm comfortable enough with kung fu to recognize basic techniques.


----------



## JowGaWolf

kempodisciple said:


> I am not aware of any shaolin temple boxing or Chin Na in SKK. For Kung Fu, there are some higher level Kung Fu forms I have not yet learned, but for the most part what it takes from Kung Fu is looking at the five animals in (I believe) Hung Ga, and using those animals to help people understand what techniques will be most useful to them. This is a really useful addition to the art IMHO.
> But as for the original description, I call baloney on that schools claims.
> 
> 
> Was this form incorporated into SKK, or are you just using it as an example? I don't see any reference in the video to SKK and don't recognize the form. I also couldn't find anything about it and kempo/kenpo in a cursory google search. No idea what it is supposed to look like in either system, so cant comment on it.





kempodisciple said:


> Was this form incorporated into SKK, or are you just using it as an example?


 The first video of the guy is some kind of karate mixed with what seems to be techniques from Jow Ga's Sei Ping Kyun. The kung fu that is done in that form is horrible.  If I were to do the form you would be able to see how closely the order of certain movements are similar to Jow Ga.

With the other stuff.  I have no idea of what Shaolin Kempo is supposed to look like but my expectations would be that the founder would be at a minimum of a Sifu skill level in form and application of Shaolin Kung fu and the Highest skill level in form and application of Kempo.  Only someone who is highly skilled in both, in actually fighting would be able to be successful in putting 2 different fighting systems together in order to make a new fighting system.

When it comes to new martial arts systems people have to be very cautious about what is being taught.  Many times you can look at the root systems that make up the martial art in order to tell if they are doing it correct.  Kempo foot work and punches should look like Kempo.  Kung Fu footwork and punches should look like Kung Fu.


----------



## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure about anyone else but this is a technique that I drill all the time. In kung fu there is really only one way to perform this technique and that is to move off center.  Doing this technique correctly will mean that there's no opportunity for them to kick you or elbow you, especially after they are in pain from a broken rib or out of breath from the punch landing. This technique is common in kung fu but the way that he's showing it is all wrong.  It makes the assumption that there is going to be a sleeve to grab.  Had he not grabbed the sleeve he would have had the hand free to punch the face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be really careful when you take these new martial art systems that are combining multiple martial arts techniques from different fighting systems and calling it something that's a combination name.


I had to watched this on the YouTube, and I agree you should be off line, but it is too nice. Parries should hurt.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Is this how the Shaolin Kenpo is supposed to look?  Can someone who takes Shaolin Kenpo please post what it's supposed to look like?


----------



## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> Finally, the claim that if you combine two arts (in this case shaolin Kung Fu and kenpo) will result in not learning either art and ending up with garbage is a claim I would disagree with heavily. Many arts have come about by someone learning two arts and finding a way to effectively combine them. Regardless of your opinion of SKK (and from the videos you posted I can definitely understand it) I would disagree with that generalized claim. The most obvious example to me is JKD, which combines multiple arts and ended up with a very effective system.


Most people are unable to effectively combine multiple methods. Simply collecting techniques and forms is not the way to do it.  A good system has an underlying set of principles, upon which the method is based.  These principles, or how they are embodied can be very different from one system to another, even to the point of being opposed.  If you try to mix that, it just doesn't work.  Working on some part of that mix can be detrimental to another part of the mix.

Yes, some people have bees able to effectively mix methods.  Most cannot, and most who try, should not.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Flying Crane said:


> Most people are unable to effectively combine multiple methods. Simply collecting techniques and forms is not the way to do it.  A good system has an underlying set of principles, upon which the method is based.  These principles, or how they are embodied can be very different from one system to another, even to the point of being opposed.  If you try to mix that, it just doesn't work.  Working on some part of that mix can be detrimental to another part of the mix.
> 
> Yes, some people have bees able to effectively mix methods.  Most cannot, and most who try, should not.


I would not argue with any of this. Ordinarily, it ends up horribly. However, there have been times that it has been done effectively, and simply making the blanket statement that if you combine any japanese art with any chinese art it will never work diminishes those that have managed to do it well.


----------



## Flying Crane

kempodisciple said:


> I would not argue with any of this. Ordinarily, it ends up horribly. However, there have been times that it has been done effectively, and simply making the blanket statement that if you combine any japanese art with any chinese art it will never work diminishes those that have managed to do it well.


there are/were exceptions, but that doesn't diminish the rule.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Touch Of Death said:


> I had to watched this on the YouTube, and I agree you should be off line, but it is too nice. Parries should hurt.


they should hurt and be strong enough to move the incoming punch off target. The way that the video shows it is going to cause students to walk into strong punches because that parry is weak.  The way that they are also trying to do the technique won't work against someone with longer arm reach.


----------



## EddieCyrax

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure about anyone else but this is a technique that I drill all the time. In kung fu there is really only one way to perform this technique and that is to move off center.  Doing this technique correctly will mean that there's no opportunity for them to kick you or elbow you, especially after they are in pain from a broken rib or out of breath from the punch landing. This technique is common in kung fu but the way that he's showing it is all wrong.  It makes the assumption that there is going to be a sleeve to grab.  Had he not grabbed the sleeve he would have had the hand free to punch the face.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have to be really careful when you take these new martial art systems that are combining multiple martial arts techniques from different fighting systems and calling it something that's a combination name.




I am a Shaolin Kempo practicioner.  Combination 3 as taught to me has a couple differences to the video shown.  First and foremost is the open hand block with the left hand is not a mere check of the incoming punch.  This should be delivered with force to deflect the punch downward or outward to break the attacker's posture or rotate them to further open up their rib cage.  This will eliminate the need to grab the sleeve.  Once the block is initiated it will stay there as a check until it turns into a strike.  The attacker will then be set up for the head strike or other deviations.  The need to move off center is a must as well and will create additional opportunities.  There are many versions of Combination 3 that extend the action based on the reaction of the attacker.


----------



## JowGaWolf

EddieCyrax said:


> I am a Shaolin Kempo practicioner.  Combination 3 as taught to me has a couple differences to the video shown.  First and foremost is the open hand block with the left hand is not a mere check of the incoming punch.  This should be delivered with force to deflect the punch downward or outward to break the attacker's posture or rotate them to further open up their rib cage.  This will eliminate the need to grab the sleeve.  Once the block is initiated it will stay there as a check until it turns into a strike.  The attacker will then be set up for the head strike or other deviations.  The need to move off center is a must as well and will create additional opportunities.  There are many versions of Combination 3 that extend the action based on the reaction of the attacker.


 I'm thinking the downward deflection would get in the way of your counter punch.  If you deflect it downward then you'll end up hitting his arm even if you are trying to hit his face.  I've done this technique plenty of times and that parry to the punch happens really quick and it just seems that you'll be busting your knuckles against his if you redirect the attack downward.

Can you create a video of you doing this technique at 80% speed with 10%-20% power actually making contact with the with counter and not air punching?


----------



## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm thinking the downward deflection would get in the way of your counter punch.  If you deflect it downward then you'll end up hitting his arm even if you are trying to hit his face.  I've done this technique plenty of times and that parry to the punch happens really quick and it just seems that you'll be busting your knuckles against his if you redirect the attack downward.
> 
> Can you create a video of you doing this technique at 80% speed with 10%-20% power actually making contact with the with counter and not air punching?


Ok, I'm just seeing your issue. You will hit yourself, if you don't turn your body, and center your motion. I am seeing Ed Parker, like, B1a stuff, even though it is disguised. LOL
However, downward is a good direction. I think moving properly will fix the issue.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok, I'm just seeing your issue. You will hit yourself, if you don't turn your body, and center your motion. I am seeing Ed Parker, like, B1a stuff, even though it is disguised. LOL
> However, downward is a good direction. I think moving properly will fix the issue.


Downward blocking/parring is good to do depending on the follow up counter.  I do quite a bit of downward blocking as well and I've goofed on a few attempts where the downward parry causes the attacking punch to hit me in my stomach instead of my chest or face.  For the downward parry I would get out of the range of that attacking punch so it doesn't hit me when I redirect it downward.  I already know that the opponent will want to return that arm back as quickly as possible. When he tries to return it, then my parrying hand will return with it striking my opponent's face. 
This is where "sticking hands" becomes really useful to me.

Most of my understanding of my kung fu techiques come from me doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and getting hit.  Pain is a good learning incentive.  Once I get hit doing a technique wrong then there's very little chance that I'll do it again.


----------



## Buka

I don't think a parry should necessarily hurt. It's not the primary purpose of a parry. As a bonus, okay, I'll take it, but I'll take anything. I think to concentrate on a parry that hurts is to take away the immediate purpose of the parry itself and I believe it can throw off your timing.


----------



## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> Downward blocking/parring is good to do depending on the follow up counter.  I do quite a bit of downward blocking as well and I've goofed on a few attempts where the downward parry causes the attacking punch to hit me in my stomach instead of my chest or face.  For the downward parry I would get out of the range of that attacking punch so it doesn't hit me when I redirect it downward.  I already know that the opponent will want to return that arm back as quickly as possible. When he tries to return it, then my parrying hand will return with it striking my opponent's face.
> This is where "sticking hands" becomes really useful to me.
> 
> Most of my understanding of my kung fu techiques come from me doing the wrong thing at the wrong time and getting hit.  Pain is a good learning incentive.  Once I get hit doing a technique wrong then there's very little chance that I'll do it again.


Fine, but I am saying, that if you turn your body to face on the downward diagonal parry, you can run a punch up the middle...


----------



## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> I don't think a parry should necessarily hurt. It's not the primary purpose of a parry. As a bonus, okay, I'll take it, but I'll take anything. I think to concentrate on a parry that hurts is to take away the immediate purpose of the parry itself and I believe it can throw off your timing.


Dude, it should knock him across the room.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Touch Of Death said:


> Fine, but I am saying, that if you turn your body to face on the downward diagonal parry, you can run a punch up the middle...


Having trouble visualizing this.  What stance are the 2 people in?  Close or Open.  Which hand is doing the downward Parry?  Lead or Rear?


----------



## Touch Of Death

JowGaWolf said:


> Having trouble visualizing this.  What stance are the 2 people in?  Close or Open.  Which hand is doing the downward Parry?  Lead or Rear?


I was talking about your combination three. You have to turn and face the action or you will get tied up.


----------



## Touch Of Death

While, not thhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_6CejS3to
e same tech, here is what it looks like to, "Run it up through the middle"....


----------



## JowGaWolf

Touch Of Death said:


> While, not thhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQ_6CejS3to
> e same tech, here is what it looks like to, "Run it up through the middle"....


thanks I think I understand what you are saying now.  I know of some techniques that take a similar approach. 
Thanks for the video.


----------



## Buka

Touch Of Death said:


> Dude, it should knock him across the room.



A room this size, maybe.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Buka said:


> A room this size, maybe.


It should be at least as hard as a slap in the face, and some people slap harder than others, I suppose. If a parry is your first move, you had better make it count.


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> A room this size, maybe.


I almost bought that house!


----------



## Buka

kempodisciple said:


> *Warning*: This is a lot of information that is all somewhat interelated, so it may not be the most cohesive explanation. My apologies.
> I explained in another thread about a month ago the differences as someone who has practiced both Shaolin Kempo Karate(SKK for convenience) and a form of Okinawan Kenpo, but will re-explain it here/link a resource here. There is also Shaolin Kenpo, which is different than SKK, and I will go into both.
> Brief answer before I begin: The addition of Shaolin in the front is there for a legitimate (according to the founders) reason.
> SKK, Shaolin Kenpo and Ed Parker Kenpo are somewhat related but all different styles. SKK and Shaolin Kenpo only share a similar name with Japanese kenpo and are not directly related. Shaolin Kenpo is derived from Shaolinquan and American Kenpo, while SKK is derived from American kenpo with a focus on shaolin animal philosophy.
> So first, read through this ISKA [Shaolin Kenpo FAQs], specifically FAQ 3 and 8. Additionally, Ralph Castro trained in Honolulu as a student of Chow, and was part of the same club as Ed Parker. Due to this the two styles are similar since they have a similar background.
> The only correction to the SKK part that I would make is that Villari learned from Nick Cerio, who learned both from George Pesare, whom it mentions, and Ed Parker, whom I don't think it mentions. Nick Cerio adapted Ed Parker kenpo to include shotokan karate forms.
> 
> To go more into detail about SKK, since that is the one I know: SKK was formed by Fred Villari, who trained under Nick Cerio and other instructors, becoming a 5th degree in Kenpo. He also went to the Caribbean (I believe, it's not important and annoying to find so don't feel like fact checking the location), and while he was there trained with local martial artists. These martial artists were practitioners of a local form of karate and a form of Kung Fu-I am unsure which one. He taught them kenpo, and in return they taught him both various techniques of their styles and the philosophies from their styles. He then took all three and created his own system that uses adapted kenpo for its techniques (similar to Cerio), adapted karate for many of its forms (IIRC almost the same as Cerio), and adapted Kung fu (different than Cerio) for its higher level forms and philosophy. Specifically, SKK has a 'five animal' philosophy, where each technique captures the essence of one of the five animals. Practitioners figure out as they train what animal(s) philosophy they fit best with, and focus on developing those techniques the most. Because of this combination he titled the style Shaolin Kempo Karate, and it forever gets confused with Shaolin Kenpo, which is explained in the link above.
> 
> There's also a whole thing about people having issues with Villari's teaching method, his claims, etc. and those people breaking away from him (my school included) but continued with SKK in their own fashion, but that's in-style politics that would bore anyone.



Going back to Kempodisciple's post......I'm rooting around in my closet looking for something else when I went into an old odds and ends box. In it was a business card from George Pesare's school from 1973 (when I used to go there and get the crap beat out of me)
It was a nifty card, one of those folding ones like a greeting card. The outsides of it were scratched to hell, but the inside is still pretty good. My wife scanned it at work and e-mailed it to me. But it was in html and I didn't know what to do with that. So I took a photo of my computer screen. Anyway, thought you guys might get a kick out of it. Especially it's less than political correctness.


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## hoshin1600

Buka said:


> Going back to Kempodisciple's post......I'm rooting around in my closet looking for something else when I went into an old odds and ends box. In it was a business card from George Pesare's school from 1973 (when I used to go there and get the crap beat out of me)
> It was a nifty card, one of those folding ones like a greeting card. The outsides of it were scratched to hell, but the inside is still pretty good. My wife scanned it at work and e-mailed it to me. But it was in html and I didn't know what to do with that. So I took a photo of my computer screen. Anyway, thought you guys might get a kick out of it. Especially it's less than political correctness.


How come on the right it says 3rd dan but on the left it says 6th degree black belt


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## Touch Of Death

hoshin1600 said:


> How come on the right it says 3rd dan but on the left it says 6th degree black belt


Magic!


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## Buka

hoshin1600 said:


> How come on the right it says 3rd dan but on the left it says 6th degree black belt



His son, Anthony George.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

I like the disclaimer on the bottom right


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