# Systema in Competitions



## Zitterbacke (Mar 1, 2004)

Hello!

I study Systema for about one year now. And although I try to understand, read, discuss on this RMA, I feel that there is still so much I don't understand. 
Well, that's not quite the reason I start this thread. 

I have seen the vids on the Hamilton website. 
This one http://systemaclips.com/clips/wkf99.wmv (Showing Furtry in a JJJ Tournament) made me wonder. Is it really possible to recognize Systema by distinct techniques? Is it possible to recognize Systema in regulated sports tournaments in general? 
As far as I understand Systema, it gives you sth. like basic principles everything is build upon. Knowledge on body motion and mechanics and therefore knowledge on the effective use of your weapons. So how would I fight against a judoka or boxer under the rules of his sports competition? Would it really look different from what he is doing? I don't think so. What may differ is the creativity that isn't confined by the knowledge of mere techniques.
Any opinions?

Greets Zitterbacke


ps. As you may have guessed, English ist not my native language. I hope I made myself comprehensible.


----------



## Furtry (Mar 1, 2004)

> What may differ is the creativity that isn't confined by the knowledge of mere techniques.


If you understand that, then the rest of your questions are moot.



> So how would I fight against a judoka or boxer under the rules of his sports competition? Would it really look different from what he is doing?


Yes and No.

 I also like to grapple, according to their rules, there are times when I submit my partner with out utilizing a recognized/standardized technique. .


----------



## Zitterbacke (Mar 1, 2004)

Ok, could one measure the creativity and say that this must be someone with a systema background? Guess not.
Isn't it dubious then to refer to systema the way you did on the website, when stating: 

_9 - 12 secs - takedown counter to roundhouse. See H2H series_

_1:03 - 1:09 - takes hit to head, but using systema flinch/yeild tactic
minimizes impact, and so continues unphazed. Observe that the 
foot off the round kick comes straight down, signifying follow-through 
and not snapping. See H2H series._

_1:26 - 1:29 - Using systma movement tactics, evades all strikes of a 3 strike combo.
See H2H series._
_...?_


----------



## Furtry (Mar 1, 2004)

Not sure what you mean by dubious. :idunno:


----------



## Zitterbacke (Mar 2, 2004)

Well, dubious is meant as wrong or misleading since one can't derive Systema from distinct techniques.

Btw: Are there more clips showing Systema-ists in tournaments or even freefights? What haunts me is the question wether to regard Systema better for tournaments or self-defence taking into account the differences in both situations. Nobody would really try to apply pure arts of self-defense like Wing Tsung or Krav Maga in tournaments for example - nor has someone known been successful in trying it when I think of Pride, UFC etc.


----------



## Furtry (Mar 2, 2004)

Yes but the principles are evident when movements are performed in a certain way. Systema teaches you how to move correctly from the beginning while everything else brings you there eventually.
The mistake you're making is by trying to pigeonhole 'Systema movement'. Any "technique" done in a free flowing relaxed natural manner is Systema.
Look at the GnP clip on my site (last one) as an example. (Please don't tell I could be arm barred, because I'll tell you to come and try  ).


----------



## jellyman (Mar 2, 2004)

"Well, dubious is meant as wrong or misleading since one can't derive Systema from distinct techniques."

This is true, but what is a technique?

For example, when I use the word 'technique', I refer to something like JJJ wherein I go through a specific series of maneuvers in response to a specific attack. It is demanded that I respond in this fashion.

Compare this notion to the material provided in the tapes. Principles are demonstrated and made manifest in action. If the same action seen on tape happens to occur in the melle, it also demonstrates principle. Is it THE way to demonstrate this? No. But it is something I can point to, should someone ask, as a sign that this person fighting at one point studied and understood material being officially sold under the umbrella of systema, which you would not commonly see in other MA. To put it another way - these are the obvious elements in his sport fighting that were not there before he did systema. Where did they come from? They came from working with Vasiliev. How can I prove that to someone not familiar with systema? By referring you to his taped material. I don't define systema as a bunch of techniques, but I do define it as the intellectual property owned by Vladimir and Mikhail. If I do not maintain a student relationship with these gentlemen at least by proxy, can I really call what I do systema?

I thought this was made pretty plain by the beginning 



> Furtry in a sport JJJ tournament after a year of systema. Elements were added to his game at this point. This is not pure systema, as that would get him disqualified. For example, systema kicks would not be recognized as legit techniques by the refs, so kickboxing-ish kicks were used instead. Specific systema elements follow



Wherein I list applied material from the H2H video. That's not ALL there was, nor is this all there is to systema, but it's the most obvious to an external observer.

Would systema help me in a judo match - I would think so, in terms of balance, timing, sensitivity, ie core grappler's attributes. But I would still have to know the rules and know how to do recognizable throws, and attack legal targets (eg. no heel hooks) within the guidelines of the sport (eg. no grabbing the adam's apple).

Systema gave me a good golf swing, but I'm still playing golf, no?


----------



## Zitterbacke (Mar 6, 2004)

@ Furtry

Given you would participate again in a JJJ tournament nowadays (btw. what does JJJ stand for?).
Would you expect visible changes? Would you look softer, quicker, more flowing, more creative etc.? So that an outsider could see the difference?


----------



## Furtry (Mar 6, 2004)

JJJ=Japanese JuJitsu.
Yes. I went back to an old club to play a little, all the vets immediately noticed a huge difference in my movement. I am softer now. The flow isn't as continuous as I would like it to be but I'm working on it.
The difference is evident on the clip. I competed the year prior (got beat up in the final) I was a robot.


----------



## jellyman (Mar 6, 2004)

There's a before and after clip showing the two matches.

Let me know if you can see the difference:

http://systemaclips.com/clips/wkf9899.wmv


----------



## Clive (Mar 6, 2004)

From what I could see he seemed a lot more relaxed.


----------



## jellyman (Mar 6, 2004)

Notice how he almost got KO'd in the first match from a kick to the head, but in the 2nd he just came back with a punch.


----------



## Furtry (Mar 6, 2004)

Good point Jelly... I have to learn how avoid getting kicked in the head :lol:


----------



## Zitterbacke (Mar 7, 2004)

Well, what I can see is that Furtry's fighting is simply better looking than the year before. But I can't really say why. 
Seems as if less strength is being used in general to perform movement, techniques etc.


----------



## Furtry (Mar 7, 2004)

Zitterbacke said:
			
		

> Well, what I can see is that Furtry's fighting is simply better looking than the year before. But I can't really say why.
> Seems as if less strength is being used in general to perform movement, techniques etc.


WHY? Because for year I worked on NO stances to perform any movement, I used NO power or strength to overcome my opponents, performed NO hard blocks.
For god sakes my man... I became a better fighter due to SYSTEMA principles.
/Do they have a BANG MY HEAD AGAINST A WALL SYMBOL?


----------



## Zitterbacke (Mar 7, 2004)

Of course you became a better fighter due to Systema - no question about that and it is obvious in general. But I can't really find out the small details that make your fighting look better. Perhaps I can after watching it 100 times...


----------

