# Alan Orr Fighter



## KPM (Nov 12, 2016)




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## LFJ (Nov 12, 2016)

Interesting...


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## Kickboxer101 (Nov 12, 2016)

Those elbows looked like normal elbows to me something you'd see in any fight what specifically made them wing chun elbows


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## Tames D (Nov 12, 2016)

They looked like JKD elbows to me


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## Transk53 (Nov 12, 2016)

Tames D said:


> They looked like JKD elbows to me



Yeah. Kind of just a series of smashes with a final follow through. That JKD though?


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## Vajramusti (Nov 12, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah. Kind of just a series of smashes with a final follow through. That JKD though?


==========================================
An application is not necessarily exactly the same as the form. Alan Orr does and teaches wing chun. His student's elbows were good applications of wing chun.


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## drop bear (Nov 12, 2016)

Are we discussing the ground and pound elbows that finished the fight?


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## Juany118 (Nov 12, 2016)

@Kickboxer101 I think the reason is this, Orr (the guy following his fighter into the ring) is a WC instructor who, while some will say it stops being WC, uses WC techniques and principles to also teach MMA fighters.  He actually has a lot of videos where he speaks to how he applies WC techniques and principles to MMA.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## LFJ (Nov 12, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> He actually has a lot of videos where he speaks to how he applies WC techniques and principles to MMA.



And once again, we don't see what he talks about most happening in the fight. 

He's always on about bouncing the opponent around by controlling their arms to disrupt their balance and open them up for strikes, like they do in _chi-sau_, and this being directly applicable to free fighting. 

That's their biggest WC thing. The "Force Flow" stuff. We never see that.

And those elbows are indistinguishable from those any other MMA fighter would smash someone on the ground with. I guess calling them "Wing Chun Elbows in MMA" is to market his school.

What they do otherwise works and they win fights. They should just drop the WC stuff and double down on their MMA, stop wasting time on unbalancing bridge skills that don't get used in their fights.


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## guy b (Nov 13, 2016)

Doesn't this guy train in the UK and not with Alan Orr? Looks like standard MMA striking


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## KangTsai (Nov 13, 2016)

I think the only discernable wing chin aspect was that brief moment of head framing in the clinch.


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## KPM (Nov 13, 2016)

No doubt, this is MMA.   MMA is its own "thing."  Some people train Karate, or TKD, or kickboxing as their base going into MMA.  Alan's guys train Wing Chun as their base going into MMA.  But they also do MMA-specific training just like everyone else.  Would they look like this in the ring without MMA-specific training?  Probably not.  But there are Wing Chun concepts and biomechanics that are still being utilized even when they do MMA.  At least that's my take on it!


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## KPM (Nov 13, 2016)

Here's another CSL fighter in the ring.  This one  trained by Duane Harper, who is a student of Alan Orr:


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## Danny T (Nov 13, 2016)

Which of these elbows are from WC?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 13, 2016)

Elbows weren't impressive.  I thought the anti takedown techniques(takedown counters) were a better highlight.
 Elbows are like jabs so the flow almost the same way across many fighting systems.

Techniques for countering takedowns usually does a better job of representing the system a person trains in.


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## Nobody Important (Nov 14, 2016)

LFJ said:


> And once again, we don't see what he talks about most happening in the fight.
> 
> He's always on about bouncing the opponent around by controlling their arms to disrupt their balance and open them up for strikes, like they do in _chi-sau_, and this being directly applicable to free fighting.
> 
> ...



I agree with both assesments here to an extent.

I believe Wing Chun is conceptual, though I practice the forms, I see them as an ideal to strive for. I call this chasing Tai Chi. We are constantly striving to achieve an ideal model. However, we are not perfect, nor are situations always ideal to allow us to implement perfect execution. That being said, selecting bits & pieces to represent an entire art as justification to support a narrative, is misleading. IMO, at a minimum, 75% of an art needs to be represented to call it as such. One cannot simply say that because they are implementing some theory & techniques from a given art, that it is solely that art. Just because you use a technique found in an art doesn't mean you are doing that art. Also, if you modify the theory of the art to support a certain activity, is it still the same, even if the techniques used are similar?

A good example is XMA, kicks & punches added to gymnastics to look like martial arts. The base is gymnastics, exercises far removed from the battlefield. The idea is to look good, not be practical.

When I see individuals like Orr, it reaffirms my hypothesis that Wing Chun is an art that was designed to elevate a more base gross motor method. In this case it is being used to elevate MMA. While Wing Chun can certainly be used on it's own, it's real value may actually lie in it's ability to refine. To strive for an ideal method of movement, power generation, efficiency etc. The idea of chasing Tai Chi, to strive for ultimate perfection of execution based upon certain ideals.

 I hold other arts such as Taijiquan, Xingyi & Bagua Zhang as similar methods of refinement. I do so because of their complex theory and unique approach to application, not unlike comparing Judo to Aikido. This approach, however, comes at a cost. If such arts are truly tools of refinement, can the refined method be called that art? In essence, I would say no. If I use a hammer & chisel to sculpt a hammer & chisel out of stone, is what I created a hammer & chisel, or just a sculpture? This bears the question is Wing Chun the art, or is it the method used to create the art?


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## guy b (Nov 14, 2016)

Nobody Important said:


> I hold other arts such as Taijiquan, Xingyi & Bagua Zhang as similar methods of refinement. I do so because of their complex theory and unique approach to application, not unlike comparing Judo to Aikido. This approach, however, comes at a cost. If such arts are truly tools of refinement, can the refined method be called that art. In essence, I would say no. If I use a hammer & chisel to sculpt a hammer & chisel out of stone, is what I created a hammer & chisel, or just a sculpture? This bears the question is Wing Chun the art, or is it the method used to create the art?



Xing Yi as I understand it from Yiquan amounts to a way of using the body. There are similar elements in VT but it isn't teaching the same thing. Yiquan can certainly help your VT but I can't see how the opposite would be the case. 

VT without the system approach would be perhaps the worst martial art in history. The most basic idea of VT is very dependent upon its context within the system, and it is difficult to see how it could develop, or if it could what advantage could be gained, outside of that context. Yiquan shorn of the system within which it arose is not even a martial art, just a stand alone method of using the body that you can learn and which might help your MA (or other physical activity). The idea from Xing Yi that is distilled into Yi Quan is a much less system specific one than the base idea of Ving Tsun, in my opinion of course.


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## Nobody Important (Nov 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Xing Yi as I understand it from Yiquan amounts to a way of using the body. There are similar elements in VT but it isn't teaching the same thing. Yiquan can certainly help your VT but I can't see how the opposite would be the case.
> 
> VT without the system approach would be perhaps the worst martial art in history. The most basic idea of VT is very dependent upon its context within the system, and it is difficult to see how it could develop, or if it could what advantage could be gained, outside of that context. Yiquan shorn of the system within which it arose is not even a martial art, just a stand alone method of using the body that you can learn and which might help your MA (or other physical activity). The idea from Xing Yi that is distilled into Yi Quan is a much less system specific one than the base idea of Ving Tsun, in my opinion of course.


I understand what you are saying, however, that isn't quite the point I was trying to make.

I'm looking at arts like Wing Chun, Xingyi, Taijiquan & Bagua Zhang as each in their own rights, methods of refinement. Not as means to refine each other. I say these arts because each has a unique & profound theory to them, not present in other arts around them. This of course is debatable, but I see how Taijiquan would serve more benefit to Long Fist than vice versa. The same holds true to Hung Gar benefiting more from Wing Chun than vice versa. I see no benefit with, for example, Wing Chun & Taijiquan or Xingyi, because these methods are at the pinnacle of their expressed theory already.


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## guy b (Nov 14, 2016)

Nobody Important said:


> I understand what you are saying, however, that isn't quite the point I was trying to make.
> 
> I'm looking at arts like Wing Chun, Xingyi, Taijiquan & Bagua Zhang as each in their own rights, methods of refinement. Not as means to refine each other. I say these arts because each has a unique & profound theory to them, not present in other arts around them. This of course is debatable, but I see how Taijiquan would serve more benefit to Long Fist than vice versa. The same holds true to Hung Gar benefiting more from Wing Chun than vice versa. I see no benefit with, for example, Wing Chun & Taijiquan or Xingyi, because these methods are at the pinnacle of their expressed theory already.



I think the Xing Yi idea can help with any physical movement; the method is not specific to martial arts. Xing Yi consists ideas for how to use it in fighting, which are a bit outdated in my opinion. Yiquan is focused on developing the idea alone, not a martial art. More like learning a breathing method for example which could then be applied to weightlifting, mowing the lawn, lifting furniture, endurance exercise, and so on, (although more difficult, and not a breathing method). VT by comparison is a system built around its little idea. Remove the system or transplant the idea into a different system and hard to see what use it would be. Yiquan can help VT certainly.


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## Nobody Important (Nov 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> I think the Xing Yi idea can help with any physical movement; the method is not specific to martial arts. Xing Yi consists ideas for how to use it in fighting, which are a bit outdated in my opinion. Yiquan is focused on developing the idea alone, not a martial art. More like learning a breathing method for example which could then be applied to weightlifting, mowing the lawn, lifting furniture, endurance exercise, and so on, (although more difficult, and not a breathing method). VT by comparison is a system built around its little idea. Remove the system or transplant the idea into a different system and hard to see what use it would be. Yiquan can help VT certainly.


Any of this of course, is contingent on what methodology is used & expressed when applying it to the art you wish to optimise. If a key element is missing that element cannot be optimized.


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## guy b (Nov 14, 2016)

Do you tthink the little idea of VT is widely applicable to different systems?


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## Nobody Important (Nov 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Do you tthink the little idea of VT is widely applicable to different systems?


Only to an extent, unless the system has a similar methodology. For example using Wing Chun to refine Chang Quan or Muay Boran probably wouldn't work very well. Using Wing Chun to refine White Crane or Karate would yield more favorable results but still have levels of confliction, if only minor ones. However, using Wing Chun to refine loose methods like boxing or MMA that don't have a unified method of approach could yield very good results. But doing so doesn't necessarily make those "arts" Wing Chun. The whole idea of refinement is optimization, with that comes changes, changes that can affect the core of an art. Doing so often results in hybridization or something completely new, as such is the case with the emergence of MMA. Alan Orr is simply using Wing Chun to achieve this within his MMA. I could see similar results by using Taijiquan or Xingyi. The question is, is it really Wing Chun or Wing Chun inspired?


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## drop bear (Nov 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Do you tthink the little idea of VT is widely applicable to different systems?



Vt without supplemental concepts would get trashed in a mma fight though. Its ideas are just too restricted.

That is why wing chun is progressing as a martial art. Because it can move outside its own concepts.


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## guy b (Nov 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Vt without supplemental concepts would get trashed in a mma fight though. Its ideas are just too restricted.
> 
> That is why wing chun is progressing as a martial art. Because it can move outside its own concepts.


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## dudewingchun (Nov 14, 2016)

All the striking the Alans teaches is Wing Chun. But I guess not all of Alans guys are pure wc guys in the first place. His fighter Josh was already an MMA fighter before he met Alan im pretty sure.


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## Transk53 (Nov 14, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Vt without supplemental concepts would get trashed in a mma fight though. Its ideas are just too restricted.
> 
> That is why wing chun is progressing as a martial art. Because it can move outside its own concepts.



Unless it was WSLVT it would seem.


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## guy b (Nov 15, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Unless it was WSLVT it would seem.



The reason for my confusion at drop bear's post is that it _just doesn't follow_ from the post he quoted. There is no logical connection between what he read and what he said


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## drop bear (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> The reason for my confusion at drop bear's post is that it _just doesn't follow_ from the post he quoted. There is no logical connection between what he read and what he said



Vt as you describe it can't be changed. You can't adapt the concepts to other styles or change the concepts to suit new conditions. You either use it all ot use none of it. So it cant work in MMA as there are extra conditions placed on the system. You go into a fight with straight VT or WT or anything and you will get trashed.

There are just too many variables.

Obviously you can change WT to suit the extra conditions of fighting that occur in MMA. You can use some of it and not use other parts of it.

That is why Alan Orrs guys are sucessfull. and VT is not.


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## Hanzou (Nov 15, 2016)

I've seen those exact same elbows thrown by numerous fighters in MMA. 

Wing Chun elbows? Don't think so.


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## guy b (Nov 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So it cant work in MMA as there are extra conditions placed on the system.



VT can work in MMA, you merely need to add what it lacks, i.e. grappling



> You go into a fight with straight VT or WT or anything and you will get trashed



Difficult to see how you would arrive at this conclusion given that you don't have any idea what VT consists of. I can only assume you are trolling again. 



> Obviously you can change WT to suit the extra conditions of fighting that occur in MMA. You can use some of it and not use other parts of it.



I don't think Alan Orr does WT. Alan Orr nowadays tends to use people who are already MMA fighters. It is pretty debateable if there is anything other than standard MMA striking there. 



> That is why Alan Orrs guys are sucessfull. and VT is not.



Potentially the silliest argument I have read on here for a while.


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## Transk53 (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> VT can work in MMA, you merely need to add what it lacks.



You do realise that MMA is sport do you not? Wing Chun isn't.


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## dudewingchun (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> VT can work in MMA, you merely need to add what it lacks, i.e. grappling
> 
> 
> 
> ...



When I start competing It will be as someone from a pure wc base. He doesn't use anyone , its just not everyone wants to do MMA competitions, some people just like working out after work or enjoy learning a martial art.


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## Transk53 (Nov 15, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> When I start competing It will be as someone from a pure wc base. He doesn't use anyone , its just not everyone wants to do MMA competitions, some people just like working out after work or enjoy learning a martial art.



Well for someone like Guy B that is ready espouse the virtues of VT, adding grappling seems quite the contradiction of said views


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## guy b (Nov 15, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Well for someone like Guy B that is ready espouse the virtues of VT, adding grappling seems quite the contradiction of said views



I am a BJJ purple belt. I recommend adding grappling to VT above in post #30


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## Transk53 (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> I am a BJJ purple belt. I recommend adding grappling to VT above in post #30



Right, so then it is not VT then. Just going on you're typical posting history. You didn't recommend anything, just pointed something out for MMA.


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## guy b (Nov 15, 2016)

Transk53 said:


> Right, so then it is not VT then. Just going on you're typical posting history. You didn't recommend anything, just pointed something out for MMA.



If you want to fight in MMA using VT then I recommend you add grappling, as I said here:



guy b said:


> VT can work in MMA, you merely need to add what it lacks, i.e. grappling



I'm not sure what you are arguing about here..?


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## Transk53 (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> If you want to fight in MMA using VT then I recommend you add grappling, as I said here:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you are arguing about here..?



Not arguing about anything. No one would use VT per se in MMA, different discipline. As DB said, would get creamed. For someone so fanatical obout VT, once again you're answer just does not add up. For the record, you did not recommend anything in post 30, just paraphrased others


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## drop bear (Nov 15, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I've seen those exact same elbows thrown by numerous fighters in MMA.
> 
> Wing Chun elbows? Don't think so.



Doesn't matter.  The elbows didn't win the fight.  Avoiding getting smashed  and getting position to thow any elbow you want won the fight.


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## drop bear (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> VT can work in MMA, you merely need to add what it lacks, i.e. grappling



And striking.


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## drop bear (Nov 15, 2016)

guy b said:


> I don't think Alan Orr does WT. Alan Orr nowadays tends to use people who are already MMA fighters. It is pretty debateable if there is anything other than standard MMA striking there.



Mma striking is a pretty big concept though. But yeah you are going to see less of the traditional concepts as you expand your arsenal.

And need to be grounded in a lot of different concepts or pretty slick at your own system to dominate in that environment.

So you could be a wrestler or submissions guy with garbage hands but as soon as you get that takedown the fight goes in your favor.

You could be a striker and have no real ground skills but can bash people and so be a fight ending expert there.  Mark hunt for example.

But if the best you can do is hang with the other guy.  Then you had better be well rounded. 

Where does VT really dominate?


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## dudewingchun (Nov 15, 2016)

Guy B should enter a amateur mma fight and use his VT striking and upload the video. You have a purple belt in bjj so your ground skills should be allgood for amateur competitions.


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## Nobody Important (Nov 15, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Where does VT really dominate?


On forums


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## KPM (Nov 16, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Guy B should enter a amateur mma fight and use his VT striking and upload the video. You have a purple belt in bjj so your ground skills should be allgood for amateur competitions.



Like that will ever happen!    Guy B and LFJ are very good about criticizing other people's video while never ever posting video of their own.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 16, 2016)

KPM said:


> Like that will ever happen!    Guy B and LFJ are very good about criticizing other people's video while never ever posting video of their own.


 
Such are the wonders of the anonymity afforded by the internet.


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## Lobo66 (Nov 16, 2016)

What about you guys?  Where are your videos of training and/or competition?


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Where does VT really dominate?



VT is a striking system


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## wtxs (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> VT can work in MMA, you merely need to add what it lacks, i.e. grappling.



If I understand your past post(s) claim of VT to be an fully functional system, therefore it lacks nothing and should kick butts in MMA.  Why do you suggest of adding any thing else in order to make it work?


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

wtxs said:


> If I understand your past post(s) claim of VT to be an fully functional system, therefore it lacks nothing and should kick butts in MMA.  Why do you suggest of adding any thing else in order to make it work?



VT is fully functional in doing what VT does. It wasn't designed for MMA fights. To compete in MMA then adding grappling (which VT doesn't cover) would be necessary


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## wtxs (Nov 16, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> What about you guys?  Where are your videos of training and/or competition?



WE guys trained in "broken" WC system, we are too ashamed to make any video for all the world to make fun of.


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## KPM (Nov 16, 2016)

Lobo66 said:


> What about you guys?  Where are your videos of training and/or competition?



I have posted several training videos in the past.  And have been criticized by the dynamic duo for some of the things on those videos.


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Guy B should enter a amateur mma fight and use his VT striking and upload the video. You have a purple belt in bjj so your ground skills should be allgood for amateur competitions



I don't see why recommending the addition of grappling to VT for those wishing to compete in MMA fights is controversial. I don't see what me fighting in amateur mma would have to do with anything.


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

KPM said:


> I have posted several training videos in the past.  And have been criticized by the dynamic duo for some of the things on those videos.



I can't remember criticising your videos KPM? Can you provide a link please and I will apologise for anything that has caused unecessary offence


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## dudewingchun (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> I don't see why recommending the addition of grappling to VT for those wishing to compete in MMA fights is controversial. I don't see what me fighting in amateur mma would have to do with anything.



I agree you need grappling obviously if you want to compete in MMA otherwise you just get slaughtered.

It would show your VT. You seem to think you can just go in and beat a trained fighter with your VT so would like to see it. Would like to see how coherent your VT looks in real competition. Going on the street and beating someone up and filming it is pretty unethical, but competing in a local competition against someone who actually wants to fight is fair.

I will post any video of me competing, but I am honestly not good enough right now so wont for a while.


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> You seem to think you can just go in and beat a trained fighter with your VT so would like to see it



...what?


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## dudewingchun (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> ...what?


? Thats what I have interpreted from your posts. That you think you could go in a do good VT against a trained opponent?


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## drop bear (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> VT is a striking system



Yeah but there are no VT fighters that are using that system to out strike anyone.

If you looked at kron gracie who from a MMA perspective does a lot wrong.  But is so dominant in his own system he can afford to.  You get into a submissions mix with him and you are in deep do do.

You see a bit of the same with some of the TKDers.  They get to a position within the striking element and suddenly the other guy has to manage this range where he is out classed and looking at potentially getting knocked out. Moontasari for example.

VT doesn't have that. WT doesn't have that either.  Which is why Alan Orrs fighters have upgraded their striking as well as adding grappling.

These are trained fighters not gang bangers on a roof top


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> ? Thats what I have interpreted from your posts. That you think you could go in a do good VT against a trained opponent?



Can you show me where I have said this please?


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> VT doesn't have that.



As far as I know there is nobody from VT competing in MMA, therefore no point to be made about the relative effectiveness or non-effectiveness of VT as a striking system. 

The only conclusion that can be drawn from the fact that no VT people are competing in MMA is that no VT people are competing in MMA.


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## drop bear (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> As far as I know there is nobody from VT competing in MMA, therefore no point to be made about the relative effectiveness or non-effectiveness of VT as a striking system.
> 
> The only conclusion that can be drawn from the fact that no VT people are competing in MMA is that no VT people are competing in MMA.



My view is a system unproven until it is proven.

Not proven untill it is unproven.

And obviously that is because a system could theoretically make its claim of effectiveness by dodging fights rather than winning fights.

 So when you say there is no point to be made about the effectiveness of VT as a striking system.  I pretty much leave it there.

Now having said that i would be happy to be proved wrong because i want to see systems succeed.  But they have to do so honestly.

Without all the theoretical fakery.


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> My view is a system unproven until it is proven.
> 
> Not proven untill it is unproven.
> 
> ...



There are many ways to test effectiveness that are not MMA competitions. In your particular case, since your experiece of VT is zero, your opinion about the effectiveness of VT is not all that important. 

If you are interested in finding out more about VT then do so, if not then don't. It is ok with me either way.


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## drop bear (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> There are many ways to test effectiveness that are not MMA competitions. In your particular case, since your experiece of VT is zero, your opinion about the effectiveness of VT is not all that important.
> 
> If you are interested in finding out more about VT then do so, if not then don't. It is ok with me either way.



Yeah but they are not anywhere near as good as testing in mma competitions.

Or probably striking competition would be better because that leans towards your skill set. 

My experience of a lot of things is zero. I cant tap dance. I don't understand fashion and I don't do VT. 

But I am not going to trust that they are effective fighting systems untill I can see them being effective at fighting.

And I don't think that is all that big an ask.


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## guy b (Nov 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I am not going to trust that they are effective fighting systems untill I can see them being effective at fighting.



That is ok, but don't see what it has to do with me. 



drop bear said:


> I don't think that is all that big an ask.



It is your life. Who are you asking?


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## Juany118 (Nov 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but they are not anywhere near as good as testing in mma competitions.
> 
> Or probably striking competition would be better because that leans towards your skill set.
> 
> ...


As to your first point I would say "yes and no.". Let me explain.

It is indeed a controlled environment.  Not simply the rules but, in theory, the fighters facing off are relatively similar in skill, size and the like.

At the same time some of these factors also work against it.  The controlled environment removes the environmental factors that make a difference.  Are you or the person you fighting going to want to go to a "ground game" in an alley with broken glass?  There are no weight classes, people don't where the same clothes, repeated head strikes can be less common due to the lack of gloves etc.

This isn't to say there is no need for pressure testing.  There is indeed but imo people participating in Lei Tai are engaged in just as effective pressure testing as MMA.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## KPM (Nov 16, 2016)

guy b said:


> I can't remember criticising your videos KPM? Can you provide a link please and I will apologise for anything that has caused unecessary offence



Aw!  Mr. Nice Guy now?  We saw how long you could keep that up last time!     Please find a WSLVT-specific forum.


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## dudewingchun (Nov 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> As to your first point I would say "yes and no.". Let me explain.
> 
> It is indeed a controlled environment.  Not simply the rules but, in theory, the fighters facing off are relatively similar in skill, size and the like.
> 
> ...



Yea but someone who has experience in competition will keep their wits about them much better then someone who has never done any hard sparring or real fighting in a competition. If you aren't used to performing under pressure how can you be confident in your ability to defend yourself at all?

Also just because the competition is approx same weight, you still train with big people and all sorts of body types before the fight. Im always getting stuck on my back with a big heavy guy in side control during bjj rolling but i have that feeling, experience of what it's like so I wouldn't freak out as much if It happened in a real situation.


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## Juany118 (Nov 16, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Yea but someone who has experience in competition will keep their wits about them much better then someone who has never done any hard sparring or real fighting in a competition. If you aren't used to performing under pressure how can you be confident in your ability to defend yourself at all?
> 
> Also just because the competition is approx same weight, you still train with big people and all sorts of body types before the fight. Im always getting stuck on my back with a big heavy guy in side control during bjj rolling but i have that feeling, experience of what it's like so I wouldn't freak out as much if It happened in a real situation.


That's why I said you need pressure testing.  I was only saying MMA is not the only, or best form, of pressure testing.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Nov 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> As to your first point I would say "yes and no.". Let me explain.
> 
> It is indeed a controlled environment.  Not simply the rules but, in theory, the fighters facing off are relatively similar in skill, size and the like.
> 
> ...



I am not super keen to fight a guy bare knuckle on broken glass to test a theory though.

I could fight a guy in a cage and just try to stay standing. That is honestly not that big an ask.  I could even fight with limited head punches.  Or go against a larger or smaller oponent.

The rule set changes.  But the basic concept doesn't. Which is that pressure test.  Which is that observable and repeatable idea.

Now sure if you have a different pressure test. Like the lei tai.  That is also valid.

And the variable would be the rule set and the quality of the oponant.


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## drop bear (Nov 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That's why I said you need pressure testing.  I was only saying MMA is not the only, or best form, of pressure testing.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk



When a person makes that statement
 I feel they do need to be specific with the alternative. And why it is equivalent.

You cant just say mma is unrealistic if you are doing larp drills for example.


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## Hanzou (Nov 16, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Doesn't matter.  The elbows didn't win the fight.  Avoiding getting smashed  and getting position to thow any elbow you want won the fight.



I'm sure he didn't learn that from Wing Chun either.


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## Hanzou (Nov 16, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> That's why I said you need pressure testing.  I was only saying MMA is not the only, or best form, of pressure testing.



I would love to hear a superior alternative.

Heck, even Bjj guys go to MMA gyms to pressure test (at least the Bjj guys I know). It's a good and (relatively) safe way to see how you handle yourself against a well-rounded fighter capable of turning your face into hamburger. The only other option I can think of is street fighting, which isn't safe, and in most cases illegal.


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## Juany118 (Nov 16, 2016)

Hanzou said:


> I would love to hear a superior alternative.
> 
> Heck, even Bjj guys go to MMA gyms to pressure test (at least the Bjj guys I know). It's a good and (relatively) safe way to see how you handle yourself against a well-rounded fighter capable of turning your face into hamburger. The only other option I can think of is street fighting, which isn't safe, and in most cases illegal.


I already mentioned it.  Lei Tai and things like MUSU (both full contact TMA competitions). Are they as common?  No MMA "pressure testing" is more common and I have consistently said that it is lacking in many TMA schools.  However the pressure testing in training and then the competitions themselves do actually exist. 

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## LFJ (Nov 17, 2016)

guy b said:


> I can't remember criticising your videos KPM? Can you provide a link please and I will apologise for anything that has caused unecessary offence



Same here, @KPM 

I don't remember seeing any videos of you training or competing.

You had videos of hip thrusting B.O.B. and punching him from YJKYM.

Is that what you're calling "training videos"?


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## guy b (Nov 17, 2016)

KPM said:


> Aw!  Mr. Nice Guy now?



Were you unable to find an example?


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## KPM (Nov 17, 2016)

Really.  You two need find another forum.   A  WSLVT-specific forum.  I've run out of patience with your antics.  Don't blame me if you both have "selective memory."   And just as soon as you provide "training" video of yourself, then you have room to comment on what others might call "training" video.  And I've posted more than just that one video.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 17, 2016)

If I train in something that you don't, and you don't believe it will work...I don't understand what harm it does to you. It might do harm to ME, if it really is ineffective and I go out to a bar or somewhere and get my head beat in. But I really don't understand why this forum turns into a "your style sucks" fest so much. There is a simple solution: if you don't like Wing Chun (or if you DO but you are from a different lineage and think MY lineage sucks), don't practice it!!!


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## KPM (Nov 17, 2016)

^^^^ This forum typically only turns into a "your style sucks" fest when a certain 2 people get involved.  Ok, maybe 3.


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## guy b (Nov 17, 2016)

KPM said:


> Really.  You two need find another forum.   A  WSLVT-specific forum.  I've run out of patience with your antics.  Don't blame me if you both have "selective memory."   And just as soon as you provide "training" video of yourself, then you have room to comment on what others might call "training" video.  And I've posted more than just that one video.



I'm not interested in criticising your video clips KPM. Mostly they contain ideas that don't correspond to the system I practice. But if you want to complain that I bullied you about a video you posted you need to show where it happened, otherwise it just looks as if you are making it up.


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## guy b (Nov 17, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> If I train in something that you don't, and you don't believe it will work...I don't understand what harm it does to you. It might do harm to ME, if it really is ineffective and I go out to a bar or somewhere and get my head beat in. But I really don't understand why this forum turns into a "your style sucks" fest so much. There is a simple solution: if you don't like Wing Chun (or if you DO but you are from a different lineage and think MY lineage sucks), don't practice it!!!



I agree


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