# What Would You Do?



## MJS (Jan 23, 2008)

I know this has most likely been discussed many times, but I came across this today and thought it was worthy of discussion. Any time the question comes up of whether or not to hand over your keys or cash, the usual reply is to do it. Of course, we can see in this case, while the person complied, they still got shot at. Doesn't appear that he was hit, so I'd say he was definately lucky. Sure, we all want to walk away unharmed, but when you're dealing with dirtbags like this, can you take that chance?

Thoughts?


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## SFC JeffJ (Jan 23, 2008)

Give them your money or whatnot but remain vigilant.  It's hard to say when or if they might decide they don't want any witnesses.


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## jks9199 (Jan 23, 2008)

If someone is holding a gun on you, and demanding your money, car keys, or anything else like that, you have a choice to make.  If you believe that handing the material stuff over will satisfy him, and will get you out of there alive -- give up your stuff.  It can be replaced.  But -- if you think he's going to shoot no matter what, I feel that you might as well fight.  I'd rather go down fighting  -- and there are acceptably safe ways to fight a gunman (note the word acceptably; there is NO perferctly safe way to fight a gunman, especially unarmed!).

However -- anytime someone wants to move you from the initial scene of the attack, fight 'em.  The odds of survival if you move from the initial scene drop precipitously.


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## KempoGuy06 (Jan 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> If someone is holding a gun on you, and demanding your money, car keys, or anything else like that, you have a choice to make.  If you believe that handing the material stuff over will satisfy him, and will get you out of there alive -- give up your stuff.  It can be replaced.  But -- if you think he's going to shoot no matter what, I feel that you might as well fight.  I'd rather go down fighting  -- and there are acceptably safe ways to fight a gunman (note the word acceptably; there is NO perferctly safe way to fight a gunman, especially unarmed!).
> 
> However -- anytime someone wants to move you from the initial scene of the attack, fight 'em.  The odds of survival if you move from the initial scene drop precipitously.


agreed 

If Im gonna get out alive by handing over my stuff, it is all his, but if fighting an armed person is my only way out alive, then I say better him dead than me. Its been said before "Id rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

B


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## pad256 (Jan 23, 2008)

give it up when there's clear danger, let your gut make the call in other somewhat hostle enviroments, but I like to go back to how did you get youself into this situation to begin with, yes I know there are just some wackos out there but if your mindful of your surroundings you should be able to avoid being a victim

Paul


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## shesulsa (Jan 23, 2008)

I think I'd still hand over what they asked for and, as SFC JeffJ said, remain vigilant.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 23, 2008)

SFC JeffJ said:


> Give them your money or whatnot but remain vigilant. It's hard to say when or if they might decide they don't want any witnesses.


 


shesulsa said:


> I think I'd still hand over what they asked for and, as SFC JeffJ said, remain vigilant.


 
yup, what they said


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## thardey (Jan 23, 2008)

The article isn't clear whether they approached him while still in his car or what. If he was still in the car with the engine running, then he did what I would do - dump the stuff and hit the gas.

If he wasn't in the car, it is strange that the guy didn't fire on him until he was driving away. Either way, it seems like an afterthought. Who knows, maybe the delivery guy flipped him off as he drove away or something.


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## tellner (Jan 23, 2008)

Any answer including the standard one might be the right one and might be dead wrong. And when I say "dead" it's not a metaphor. It's all a matter of judging a person's intentions in split seconds and being sensitive enough to see when they're changing. This is where the KISS principle falls a little short. It ain't simple, and you can't be stupid. 

All I can say is to do whatever you are going to decisively and without hesitation. If you're going to run, do it before they've got the sentence that starts with "Give me" half finished. If you're going to fight go all out, no restraint, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, and get there before he knows what hit him. If you're going to de-escalate and negotiate put everything into the effort. If you're going to hand your stuff over do it efficiently and without saying a word. Be ready to turn that into immediate lethal violence or full flight if he's about to turn it into a robbery-murder. One of the scariest stories I ever heard involved an acquaintance who was about to hand his mortgage payment over to three low life scum. The leader said "Cap him anyhow." 

You're the one in the situation. You are in possession of more of the facts than anyone else. Act on them as you see fit. But above all else, act. Be in control of your actions and what's going on, because if you're not in control you're out of control.


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## JBrainard (Jan 23, 2008)

SFC JeffJ said:


> It's hard to say when or if they might decide they don't want any witnesses.


 
I think that hits the nail on the head. The delivery man had an address to give the police, after all.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 23, 2008)

Remain vigilant is definitely the key words here. Of course hand over what they want except your life. Problem is you just don't know what they're going to do after you give them what they want. 
Is the weapon for intimidation or they actually want to use it? Or are their minds spinning a thousand miles a second and suddenly the urge to shoot comes over them, whereas it was just "get the money". 
You never know. This is one reason why weapons disarms are an important tool to have in a Martial Artist's arsenal but judgment is also another important tool, probably THE most important tool. 
Last week a pan-handler came up to me when I was going to drop off a roll of film from my latest caving trip. I honestly told him I don't have any money and showed him the camera telling him I was planning to pick it up tomorrow after I get paid (white lie). He started to get belligerent, not much but you can see he was working himself up to where he would WANT to do something. Probably scared but desperate, he'd probably been turned down repeatedly throughout the day. I reassured him that I didn't have any cash and offered a cigarette (and a light) instead and chatted lightly with him about how I've been where he's been and know how sucky the situation is. About how I can barely afford gas for my jeep (true) as he saw me pull up to the store in it and bla bla bla. 
Sometimes you can talk your way out of a potential harmful situation sometimes not. Not acting nervous or afraid and being mildly sympathetic (they can smell phonies very well and can hear the truth in your voice as well) can help disarm it. 
But again my mind was locked to my folder in my back pocket and my hand never got too far away from it without being obvious. It was there which helped kept me calm. 

It's sad that a guy who robs someone and goes ahead and shoots (at) them anyway. Awareness, using your head and being prepared can help save you. :asian:


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 23, 2008)

Just as a quick aside and this is not something I would recommend but a friend of my ex-wife&#8217;s once had a guy confront him with a knife and tell him to give him his wallet. My ex-wife&#8217;s friend pulled out his gun and asked the guy with the knife for his wallet.


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## jks9199 (Jan 23, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just as a quick aside and this is not something I would recommend but a friend of my ex-wife&#8217;s once had a guy confront him with a knife and tell him to give him his wallet. My ex-wife&#8217;s friend pulled out his gun and asked the guy with the knife for his wallet.


Cute story... bad idea.  You do that, and YOU become the robber!

(In fact, a TV series called *Third Watch* featured an incident like that where one of the main characters, a cop, was the intended target of a couple of misguided robbers.  He turned the tables on them, took their clothes... and then had to figure out a way out of it when they turned up at the station, looking to report that they'd been robbed!)


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 23, 2008)

MJS said:


> I know this has most likely been discussed many times, but I came across this today and thought it was worthy of discussion. Any time the question comes up of whether or not to hand over your keys or cash, the usual reply is to do it. Of course, we can see in this case, while the person complied, they still got shot at. Doesn't appear that he was hit, so I'd say he was definately lucky. Sure, we all want to walk away unharmed, but when you're dealing with dirtbags like this, can you take that chance?
> 
> Thoughts?




I was telling a similar story earlier today. While working behind a counter and selling pizza and pop and ice cream. (* The chicks that worked there and hung out were good looking maybe that explains why I was there.  *) This guy bought a slice of pizza for $0.99 I rang it up and the tax was $0.04. He started digging for the $0.03 as he only had a one dollar bill on him. After checking pockets and starting to look inside his jacket, which he opened, I saw he was carrying a fire-arm in a shoulder holster. I hit no sale on the cash register and told him not to worry about the $0.03 and grabbed a wet towel and started to wash down counters towards the back. He looked confused and then looked at the open cash register and when he looked back at me I was almost around the corner and hiding behind the cast iron pizza ovens. I was also prepared to continue on and head out the back door.  He just grabbed his pizza and left the $1 and took off. 

Another time I was loading a change machine. I was carrying 4 bags. Each bag had $500 in quarter in it. I was carrying two on each shoulder. Someone stuck something into my back and said drop the bags and stick your hands up. I did. The Bags fell to the floor and I was not shoot, but I heard screaming. The guy had used a lighter to stick in my back and was "joking" Well for his "joke" he got a broken ankle (* I did follow his instructions *). I did have a problem picking up the quarters with him rolling around in pain. I had no sympathy for him. Police were called and ambulance as well. (* Standard policy to get police report as part of serious accidents or theft for that business *) I laughed at the guy when they told him he was under arrest and they were awaiting for me to press charges. The owner of the place agreed to not press charges and I also agreed if he did not bring suit in court for his injury.  

Unless there was someone in the vehicle I could not get out, I would give them the vehicle and the money and what ever else they wanted. But I would not go with them.


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## MA-Caver (Jan 23, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just as a quick aside and this is not something I would recommend but a friend of my ex-wifes once had a guy confront him with a knife and tell him to give him his wallet. My ex-wifes friend pulled out his gun and asked the guy with the knife for his wallet.


Why am I finding that funny as hell? :lol:


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## KenpoTex (Jan 23, 2008)

tellner said:


> *All I can say is to do whatever you are going to decisively and without hesitation.* If you're going to run, do it before they've got the sentence that starts with "Give me" half finished. If you're going to fight go all out, no restraint, damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead, and get there before he knows what hit him. If you're going to de-escalate and negotiate put everything into the effort. If you're going to hand your stuff over do it efficiently and without saying a word. Be ready to turn that into immediate lethal violence or full flight if he's about to turn it into a robbery-murder.


 
excellent post...couldn't have said it better.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Cute story... bad idea. You do that, and YOU become the robber!


 
Yes it was a bad idea and Yes you do become the robber and yes he did, he took the guys money. I didn't say I approved of it,  Not something I would have done, but he apparently did. This was about many years ago and I only meant the guy once and to be honest I never saw him again and I am rather happy about that. And to be honest I can't remeber his name and I don't want to. Now if I could just forget my ex-wife's name all would be right with the world.



MA-Caver said:


> Why am I finding that funny as hell? :lol:


 
I know I did too and yet someting inside says that is just so wrong.


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## thardey (Jan 24, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> I was telling a similar story earlier today. While working behind a counter and selling pizza and pop and ice cream. (* The chicks that worked there and hung out were good looking maybe that explains why I was there.  *) This guy bought a slice of pizza for $0.99 I rang it up and the tax was $0.04. He started digging for the $0.03 as he only had a one dollar bill on him. After checking pockets and starting to look inside his jacket, which he opened, I saw he was carrying a fire-arm in a shoulder holster. I hit no sale on the cash register and told him not to worry about the $0.03 and grabbed a wet towel and started to wash down counters towards the back. He looked confused and then looked at the open cash register and when he looked back at me I was almost around the corner and hiding behind the cast iron pizza ovens. I was also prepared to continue on and head out the back door.  He just grabbed his pizza and left the $1 and took off.



Did you expect the guy to rob you or something? Or does your shop have a "no firearms on premises" policy?

Me, I probably would have asked what kind it was, and why he preferred the shoulder holster. But then again, this is Oregon, and over half the men I talk to either have a concealed permit, or want one, but are procrastinating on getting one.



> Another time I was loading a change machine. I was carrying 4 bags. Each bag had $500 in quarter in it. I was carrying two on each shoulder. Someone stuck something into my back and said drop the bags and stick your hands up. I did. The Bags fell to the floor and I was not shoot, but I heard screaming. The guy had used a lighter to stick in my back and was "joking" Well for his "joke" he got a broken ankle (* I did follow his instructions *). I did have a problem picking up the quarters with him rolling around in pain. I had no sympathy for him. Police were called and ambulance as well. (* Standard policy to get police report as part of serious accidents or theft for that business *) I laughed at the guy when they told him he was under arrest and they were awaiting for me to press charges. The owner of the place agreed to not press charges and I also agreed if he did not bring suit in court for his injury.



That's sad, but hilarious!


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 24, 2008)

thardey said:


> Did you expect the guy to rob you or something? Or does your shop have a "no firearms on premises" policy?



It as Flint in the mid / late 80's when it was voted number one worst place to live by numerous magazines. It also competed for the top city for violent crimes every year. The local gangs had t-shirts that read "Detroit where they shoot and kill their young. Flint where we shoot and eat Detroiters." 

Yes. I thought he was going to rob me, based upon simple facts.

1) Location
2) Appearance of customer
3) Only $1 on him nothing else. No other money in his wallet or pocket. Then he begins is search and then the gun is flashed. 
4) Experience. Having a gun pointed at my head was something I did not want to repeat. 
5) Did I mention Location?


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## LawDog (Jan 25, 2008)

By reading his / their body languge and reading into what he / they are saying, including the verbal tone, one can usually get the general drift of  his / their true intent. Then you must, without hesitation, make your decision.
:matrix:


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## thardey (Jan 25, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> It as Flint in the mid / late 80's when it was voted number one worst place to live by numerous magazines. It also competed for the top city for violent crimes every year. The local gangs had t-shirts that read "Detroit where they shoot and kill their young. Flint where we shoot and eat Detroiters."
> 
> Yes. I thought he was going to rob me, based upon simple facts.
> 
> ...



Gotcha, I figured there was more to it than you said. I usually associate shoulder holsters with suits, or well-dressed men, so I got the wrong picture in my head.

I just imagined myself ordering a pizza (sometimes I carry) and having everybody split, and if you knew me you would see why that would just be weird. I would look confused, too.


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