# Striking with shin during roundhouse kick?



## Lynne (Sep 1, 2008)

During sparring, do you ever strike with your shin when executing a roundhouse kick?

I'm curious if it's legal to do so in most TSD/SBD competitions.

I know, of course, the rules vary from competition to competition and also at belt level, aka, black belts and red belts are allowed face strikes sometimes.  

I just heard a rumor that no spin kicks are going to be allowed in a popular upcoming competition.  Too dangerous.  I can't say whether that's true - I haven't seen the competition rules and you know how rumors go.


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## thesandman (Sep 1, 2008)

Generally in competition judges will not score any strike that lands "improperly", like a shin strike from a round kick.  Remember that tournament sparring is like a fast paced chess match.  It's about position and strategy. 

In most point sparring rules for black belts a "point" is defined as "a properly executed, controlled technique that both lands in a designated scoring area and contains enough force to provide some advantage to the attacker"

These rules can vary pretty greatly by association doing the tournament, the ranks of the fighters, and even the personal mood of the center judge.

That being said, whenever I'm judging I make the decision to call the point based on the individual situation, not necessarily just the exact point of contact for the strike.  If the shin struck someones ribs for instance, in a situation in which the defender simply did not react to the kick I would probably award the point.  If however, the shin struck because the defender stepped into kick, deflecting it's power and jamming the leg, I likely would not.

Additionally, the proper execution of the kick can affect my choice.  If there's anything that disappoints me about black belt sparring, it's the poor  execution of most kicks, particularly round kicks.

Hope that helps.


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## astrobiologist (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm not really into competition martial arts.  I lvoe watching tournaments and competing can be fun, but as far as sparring is concerned I usually train with a sparring that is a little more reality based.  So for me, as long as I'm sparring with an advanced student, a shin hit with the roundhouse is absolutely a good idea.  Maybe I'll follow that by a trap and a throw.  Think about it, in a street fight, a person who is attacking you or someone else probably won't reserve any movements because they aren't pretty or because they're mean...  


Point fighting is definitely about speed and timing and I can see why people want soft-contact at all times due to that, so in point fighting competition I understand why the shin would probably not be allowed.


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## Lynne (Sep 1, 2008)

thesandman said:


> Generally in competition judges will not score any strike that lands "improperly", like a shin strike from a round kick. Remember that tournament sparring is like a fast paced chess match. It's about position and strategy.
> 
> In most point sparring rules for black belts a "point" is defined as "a properly executed, controlled technique that both lands in a designated scoring area and contains enough force to provide some advantage to the attacker"
> 
> ...


 Thanks Master Seth.  You've cleared up some things for me.  This October, I will compete in my second competition.  There is so much to learn about sparring.

I can see where improper execution of kicks at the black belt level would be disappointing.  If the kicks are sloppy or there is no followthrough then I assume control has been lost.  Is it usually a control problem?  Or lack of focus?


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## Lynne (Sep 1, 2008)

astrobiologist said:


> I'm not really into competition martial arts. I lvoe watching tournaments and competing can be fun, but as far as sparring is concerned I usually train with a sparring that is a little more reality based. So for me, as long as I'm sparring with an advanced student, a shin hit with the roundhouse is absolutely a good idea. Maybe I'll follow that by a trap and a throw. Think about it, in a street fight, a person who is attacking you or someone else probably won't reserve any movements because they aren't pretty or because they're mean...
> 
> 
> Point fighting is definitely about speed and timing and I can see why people want soft-contact at all times due to that, so in point fighting competition I understand why the shin would probably not be allowed.


 Kudos for reality-based training.  My instructors are always after me to hit hard.  Most of ladies do not hit hard at orange belt level which is probably a good thing as we don't have very good control.  Now at green belt level I have more control and I'm told to hit hard, "none of this baby stuff."  We have to be reminded we are learning self-defense skills.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 2, 2008)

I don't focus on/practice shin strikes for 2 reasons: (1) I'm not studying Muay Thai...that's the superficial, and less impacting, reason. (2) I don't see a need, or a motive. Sure the shin bone is harder and thus, it could be said, has more damage potential, but think about how a whip works: it's the very end that does the damage. When you snap out a roundhouse kick, you're doing much the same thing. Not only do you have more reach when kicking with your instep/ball of foot, you're using that extension, that whiplike motion, to deliver a lot of power to a smaller area. That's called pounds per square inch, and it means a lot in terms of stopping a fight. 

As for the danger of hurting yourself with a traditional foot kick, well everything we do as TSD students is dangerous. That's why we practice. Before I did my 360° jump round kick break through one board in '06, I slammed my foot into the 100-lb training bag over and over again to make sure I had the kick right and that my accuracy was good. After that worked, and I'd decided to do two boards the next year, I conditioned my instep all the harder. 

Not that I think there's no possibility I might throw a shin kick in a real fight, if I was in close and it seemed like a good idea...I just think that if I were in that close range I'd use my fists, knees, elbows, or grappling techniques instead.


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## thesandman (Sep 2, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Thanks Master Seth.  You've cleared up some things for me.  This October, I will compete in my second competition.  There is so much to learn about sparring.
> 
> I can see where improper execution of kicks at the black belt level would be disappointing.  If the kicks are sloppy or there is no follow through then I assume control has been lost.  Is it usually a control problem?  Or lack of focus?



Good luck in October.  My main advice for your tournament prep is to be sure to read over the entire rule book for that particular tournament yourself.  Don't take anyones word for anything. 

Sparring has several tiers of excellence, there are dozens and dozens of little lessons to learn, each one bringing you closer to that next tier.

The kicking technique problem is generally one of focus, but often times is one of habit.  Many black belts assume their kicks are fine.  Over time, more and more mechanical errors creep into their kicks and they ignore them.  These errors become physical memory, and much harder to fix.

Just this past July during our annual Karate Camp (a week long intensive) I spent a few hours working with our black belts specifically on round kicks.  These were 1st-3rd degree black belts, each of them making mechanical errors on their kicks even when they knew they were being judged.  Vigilance and an understanding that we are all vulnerable to mistakes is the only counter measure.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 2, 2008)

Lynne said:


> During sparring, do you ever strike with your shin when executing a roundhouse kick?



Sure.  I usually use my foot, but I vary the weapon depending on the target and the range.  The shin is very good against the heavy part of the thigh.  It is harder to hurt this area with the foot because the muscles are so big in that area.  Also, the shin is good when your range is short and you are in close.  YMMV



Lynne said:


> I'm curious if it's legal to do so in most TSD/SBD competitions.



That I don't know.  I would guess not.  Our karate tournaments don't even usually allow leg kicks.  Another reason i don't much like tournaments.


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## JoelD (Sep 2, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I'm curious if it's legal to do so in most TSD/SBD competitions.


 
In SBD competitions this is a moot point as contact is not allowed with any part of the body during sparring. Though i would assume if during an SBD competition that an individual throws a roundhouse in close quarters that WOULD have landed using the shin region and the opposing partner didnt have a hand up to block it would result in a point for the individual throwing the kick.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 2, 2008)

JoelD said:


> In SBD competitions this is a moot point as contact is not allowed with any part of the body during sparring. Though i would assume if during an SBD competition that an individual throws a roundhouse in close quarters that WOULD have landed using the shin region and the opposing partner didnt have a hand up to block it would result in a point for the individual throwing the kick.



Wait, so SBD enforces strict non-contact? Wow, that's tough...it's so easy to misjudge how your opponent will move and make contact anyway. I don't compete in sparring tournaments due to my asthma, but in class, when we spar, it's non-contact in name only. So long as you're not whaling on the person intentionally, nobody cares. I've gotten some pretty bad hits landed on me, though.


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## JoelD (Sep 2, 2008)

Oh it happens from time to time, sure... but at dan level and above you are expected to have the control to avoid contact.

 i have personally been kicked in the head 3 or 4 times and punched in the solar plexus once... so its occasionally unavoidable in my opinion.


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## Empty Hands (Sep 2, 2008)

JoelD said:


> In SBD competitions this is a moot point as contact is not allowed with any part of the body during sparring.





JT_the_Ninja said:


> ...in class, when we spar, it's non-contact in name only.





JoelD said:


> Oh it happens from time to time, sure... but at dan level and above you are expected to have the control to avoid contact.



This type of training is routine now? Things are worse than I thought.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 3, 2008)

@ Empty Hands: What do you mean, exactly? It's not like we're trained to hit the person...quite the opposite. Control is part of sparring, and if you do make excessive contact, the instructor will tell you to watch it. We also have a rule (how official, I dunno...more like a norm) of stopping when you accidentally hit someone and bowing to show respect before continuing.


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## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> @ Empty Hands: What do you mean, exactly? It's not like we're trained to hit the person...quite the opposite. Control is part of sparring, and if you do make excessive contact, the instructor will tell you to watch it. We also have a rule (how official, I dunno...more like a norm) of stopping when you accidentally hit someone and bowing to show respect before continuing.


 
We are taught to hit hard.  My instructors have been fussing at me for "doing this baby stuff."  We are to go into sparring or a tournament and land solid hard punches and snap those kicks.  I just found out we are also to pummel. A young lady had pummeled someone and I thought she was a prime example of lack of control.  Boy, was I wrong.  She'd been taught to pummel in a sparring class.   I'd thought a reverse punch-straight punch was all that was needed.  I was wrong about that, too.

One of the recent tournaments got nasty.  Someone got knocked out (I don't know if that was a black belt or not).  Green belts were doing face punches and it was legal.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 3, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> This type of training is routine now? Things are worse than I thought.


 


JT_the_Ninja said:


> @ Empty Hands: What do you mean, exactly? It's not like we're trained to hit the person...quite the opposite. Control is part of sparring, and if you do make excessive contact, the instructor will tell you to watch it. We also have a rule (how official, I dunno...more like a norm) of stopping when you accidentally hit someone and bowing to show respect before continuing.


 
Now, I whole heartedly agree with realist training and learning to take a hit and learning to actually follow through, but JT is right here.  We are taught control.  It isn't a matter of being taught not to hit, it is being taught to have the control to make the decision...not only if you will hit or not, but also with what force you will hit.  We have the same rules as JT in our school.  Contact is assumed, it is going to happen....excessive contact is a different story.  Accidental contact, same idea.

I like to think of myself as pretty tough, I can take a decent hit, I don't mind being hit.....but I have got to say, if I went to a school where hitting and hitting hard was encouraged and control was not a concern, I wouldn't be there for long.  Mainly because I feel that control is VERY important.  But also, because I have a day job; one in which I CAN'T, literally CANNOT go to work with visable bruises, or injuries.

I am in the SBD Federation.  We do have a no contact rule.  The strictness with which it is enforced is completely up to the instructor.  I do have to say though, at our tournaments....the judges are looking for excessive contact at the Dan level.  Again, contact is assumed....you just have to be controlled about it.

With that, I see that a new topic has formed on this topic, so let's all move this part of the discussion over there!

Oh yeah....and I don't like using my shin for roundhouse kicks, but it is another weapon, if that's what's available....I'd say use it!


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## astrobiologist (Sep 3, 2008)

Ya, it sounds like this got a bit off topic.  

A full-contact only school is truly lacking and is definitely very dangerous.  But then a school which pushes the students to never make more than the lightest contact while sparring are ripping off their students.  I was once talking to a man from another school.  He said he was afraid to sparr with women because he always had to go light on them.  I told him he was being unfair to the ladies.  A woman who wishes to train in the martial arts wants to be safe in class, duh, but she probably also wants to get stronger and more able to handle herself should a bad situation arise.  At my school, lower ranks are soft contact and a lot of the sparring is guided.  At the higher levels, I start teaching harder contact (with sense of course), trapping, tripping, throwing, ground work, vital targeting, etc.  I only go full-on with one student right now.  He and I have both competed in the ring (full-contact kickboxing) and in the dojo/dojang (MMA and NHB) and we know how to get crazy without getting truly stupid.  

Back to the topic at hand...  JT_The_Ninja mentioned before about a whip.  I agree, a whipping motion with the leg would make it so that more speed comes from the foot.  But remember, force equals mass times accelration.  The speed is on the end of the leg (the foot) and centripetal force will draw even more power towards the foot, but the lower leg is still far heavier and thus can land one heck of a devastating blow. 

-There is a show called Fight Science that comes on the Science Channel.  One of the episodes featured an MMA fighter (Bas Ruten) striking a target with his shin.  Not only did he outsrtike a Muay Thai fighter with the shin strike, but the scientist monitoring the strike was amazed at the amount of force that kick delivered.  I haven't seen the episode in a while, but I'm pretty sure that the shin strike had more force than the human foot can deliver with a strike.

-Another thing, a lot of TSD and TKD practitioners sparr at medium to long range.   When point fighting, the competitors are following a lot of rules and are generally going to do a lot of foot work and 'bouncing' around to position themselves in an advantagous striking position.  This means that a lot of the kicks will be thrown from long range, where the kicks most commonly practiced in these arts can deliver the most damage to the allowed striking targets (such as the abdomen, chest, and head; though, in point fighting we soften the strike to avoid truly harming our sparring partner).

-If a person attacks you on the street, they probably aren't going to follow any rules and they're not going to fight like you're used to.  I may like the idea of roundhouse kicking some attacking rufian with my foot full-on like I have time and again in practice, but it may not go down that way.  If the attacker rushes in and strikes with his fists, I'll be ready to block/check and trap his weapons (in this case hands), putting us into close-range combat.  At close range combat, you're not going to roundhouse kick the head, front kick the chest, or side-kick anything above the knees.  But at that close of range, a front kick to the groin or the nerves on the inside of thigh could be enough to distract...  a side kick to the knee, the ankle, or the foot could be enough to crush and disable...  and a roundhouse kick with the shin to the side could deliver enough force to devastate...

I train and teach roundhouse kicks with the ball of the foot, the instep, and the shin.  Why?  Because I want every weapon ready and I want to be prepared (guess I'm just an old boy scout).    

Instructor Graham


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 4, 2008)

astrobiologist said:


> -Another thing, a lot of TSD and TKD practitioners sparr at medium to long range.   When point fighting, the competitors are following a lot of rules and are generally going to do a lot of foot work and 'bouncing' around to position themselves in an advantagous striking position.  This means that a lot of the kicks will be thrown from long range, where the kicks most commonly practiced in these arts can deliver the most damage to the allowed striking targets (such as the abdomen, chest, and head; though, in point fighting we soften the strike to avoid truly harming our sparring partner).
> 
> -If a person attacks you on the street, they probably aren't going to follow any rules and they're not going to fight like you're used to.  I may like the idea of roundhouse kicking some attacking rufian with my foot full-on like I have time and again in practice, but it may not go down that way.  If the attacker rushes in and strikes with his fists, I'll be ready to block/check and trap his weapons (in this case hands), putting us into close-range combat.  At close range combat, you're not going to roundhouse kick the head, front kick the chest, or side-kick anything above the knees.  But at that close of range, a front kick to the groin or the nerves on the inside of thigh could be enough to distract...  a side kick to the knee, the ankle, or the foot could be enough to crush and disable...  and a roundhouse kick with the shin to the side could deliver enough force to devastate...
> 
> ...



Which is why I wouldn't go for kicks, especially not head kicks, unless I had the proper range. In a real fight, you don't want to go into "sparring" mode. Close in, you want to do just what you're saying here. Remember that you have hands, my instructor always says.


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