# Kenpo Forms



## seca2man (Aug 20, 2006)

I'm interested to learn how much forms are emphasized in your training curricula at your current school(s).  My old instructor hammered us on forms and correct movement, and all the techniques he taught, he did so in parallel with the forms they were found in.  Through the forms, he gave us clues as to how the EPAK system was categorized, where counters were hidden (where counters to counters were hidden!) and so on.  Of course we also ran technique lines as well as light sparring, but he definitely saw forms as first and foremost.

After over a 10 year absence from the martial arts, I'm thinking seriously of starting up training again and am in the process of looking at local kenpo schools.  I've been out of it for so long I don't know how schools are structured these days.  It's kinda funny, but I've had this gnawing feeling that I should go back and finish what I started.  I still remember certain techniques (or portions thereof), stances, blocks, attacks, terminology, and even parts of certain forms; but I'm totally willing to start off as a white belt since I'll need to re-learn the basics again.  I guess I'm hoping that schools still teach forms because I truly enjoyed learning them and practicing them as a way to program and maintain the muscle memory.

Thanks for listening to my rambling!


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## MJS (Aug 21, 2006)

seca2man said:
			
		

> I'm interested to learn how much forms are emphasized in your training curricula at your current school(s). My old instructor hammered us on forms and correct movement, and all the techniques he taught, he did so in parallel with the forms they were found in. Through the forms, he gave us clues as to how the EPAK system was categorized, where counters were hidden (where counters to counters were hidden!) and so on. Of course we also ran technique lines as well as light sparring, but he definitely saw forms as first and foremost.


 
Forms have always been a big part in the Kenpo schools I've been a part of.  Providing the meanings can be extracted and taught to the students, there really is a ton of info. in them.



> After over a 10 year absence from the martial arts, I'm thinking seriously of starting up training again and am in the process of looking at local kenpo schools. I've been out of it for so long I don't know how schools are structured these days. It's kinda funny, but I've had this gnawing feeling that I should go back and finish what I started. I still remember certain techniques (or portions thereof), stances, blocks, attacks, terminology, and even parts of certain forms; but I'm totally willing to start off as a white belt since I'll need to re-learn the basics again. I guess I'm hoping that schools still teach forms because I truly enjoyed learning them and practicing them as a way to program and maintain the muscle memory.
> 
> Thanks for listening to my rambling!


 
Realizing that you still have an interest in training is the first step.  Now, you just need to get down to a school and start training!   Check out the schools in your area, take some trail classes, talk to the inst. and students.  

Good luck in your search for a new school and let us know how things go.:ultracool 

Mike


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 21, 2006)

Simply put, without the forms there is no system.  Without understanding the forms you can't understand the system.  Without being able to do the forms you can't do the system.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 25, 2006)

The whole system can, effectively, be found in the forms.  However, it can't be learned without pulling the techniques out, in my opinion.  Otherwise, you simply end up with "lethal" yet ineffective dance.  Having said that, though, one doesn't really have the system if one does away with the forms.  

I think, perhaps, because of my ancient of days traditional training methods that I am sympathetic toward the sets and forms as major teaching tools for balance, breathing, continuity of motion (flow), and some other little things that aren't taught, generally, in techniques.


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 25, 2006)

I concur with Dan


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## RichK (Aug 26, 2006)

There's forms in Kenpo???? Seriously now, there are certain instructors that put emphasis on certain portions. Some stress stances, some techs and some forms. Go check out some schools and instructors, talk to them and find out which one you click into.


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## Ronin Moose (Aug 26, 2006)

Just curious, what part of the country are you located in?  Do you have a selection of studios/dojos to look at?  Best regards.....

*-GARRY*


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## seca2man (Aug 28, 2006)

I live in Northern California..wine country.  I've found a few dojos and after speaking to a few of them, they all seem to teach some from of EPAK kenpo.  I'll be starting lessons this week.  Wish me luck


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## Seabrook (Aug 28, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> Simply put, without the forms there is no system. Without understanding the forms you can't understand the system. Without being able to do the forms you can't do the system.


 
Hi James,

I agree completely with your post above, but you might be surprised to know that there are some high-ranking kenpoists who don't agree. I know of one in particular who is considering eliminating all of the Kenpo forms and to just teach the techniques and sets.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 28, 2006)

Seabrook said:
			
		

> Hi James,
> 
> I agree completely with your post above, but you might be surprised to know that there are some high-ranking kenpoists who don't agree. I know of one in particular who is considering eliminating all of the Kenpo forms and to just teach the techniques and sets.


 
So let me get this straight.  Instead of an encyclopedia (forms) we'll just teach a few words (techniques) from and offer a few appendices (sets) to an encyclopedia(form) that isn't used anymore?  Interesting indeed....without all of the books (forms, sets, techniques) the library (System) isn't quite complete in my opinion.  But there are those whose opinions differ.

"I teach EPAK exactly as Mr. Parker left it....except for those useless forms and techniques I threw out that he felt were important for some reason....."


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## Sigung86 (Aug 28, 2006)

Kenpojujitsu3 said:
			
		

> So let me get this straight.  Instead of an encyclopedia (forms) we'll just teach a few words (techniques) from and offer a few appendices (sets) to an encyclopedia(form) that isn't used anymore?  Interesting indeed....without all of the books (forms, sets, techniques) the library (System) isn't quite complete in my opinion.  But there are those whose opinions differ.
> 
> "I teach EPAK exactly as Mr. Parker left it....except for those useless forms and techniques I threw out that he felt were important for some reason....."



Just a moment James!  Just for the sake of argument ... Let's take out the forms and build a system here that is technique only.  How do we do it?  And ... What do we end up with?

You go first.  :idunno:


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Aug 28, 2006)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Just a moment James! Just for the sake of argument ... Let's take out the forms and build a system here that is technique only. How do we do it? And ... What do we end up with?
> 
> You go first. :idunno:


 
A system can be built this way initially and be a very viable one at that .  But to take one that was not built this way (Kenpo Karate ) and to try to maintain it's original integrity while removing stuff (let's say oh I don't know...forms) is very difficult.  You can undoubtedly end up with something effective, but it will not be the same thing.

It also depends on the complexity of the system in question. Personally I find that the more 'complex' a system is the more of a need for some type of 'forms' to retain a record of the necessary information.

Take the Ju Jitsu crowd for example.  I've lost track of how many times I've heard a Ju Jitsu practitioner (most notably BJJ people) claim to have developed or discovered new moves only for myself (and others) to point them to old manuals and manuscripts of old Ju Jitsu and Judo that have these "new moves" documented.  Often times decades ago.  Forms in my opinion would prevent this knowledge from being "lost" and then "developed" again later.

How to do it.

1) Start with a comprehensive list of principles and concepts

2) Add to that a list of basic movements and maneuvers

3) Use these concepts and manuevers to form "techniques" that illustrate all of the principles and concepts.

4) Make sure that these techniques are presented in a logical order to present the concepts and basics in a progressive order.

5) Ensure that the order of progression accounts for A) easiest to hardests, B) simplest to most complex, C) useful now to useful later (advanced), D) Base principles to principles built from base principles.

Now take EPAK for example.  Though I'd be hard pressed to find alot of principles that show up in the forms only, the forms make alot of the relationships between movements clear.  Especially when allowing the student to make self-discovery.  this allows the students to find new ways to use old stuff.  This process of self discovery is essential to ingraining the material.  The forms eliminate some (not all) of the randomness involved with this self discovery process.  Can it be done without the forms? sure.  Is it alot more difficult and tedious on the students part? without forms, yes.


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