# Texas schools revive paddling



## Omar B (Apr 16, 2010)

_TEMPLE, TEX. -- In an era when students talk back to teachers, skip  class and wear ever-more-risque clothing to school, one central Texas  city has hit upon a deceptively simple solution: Bring back the paddle.
__ Most school districts across the country banned paddling of students  long ago. Texas sat that trend out. Nearly a quarter of the estimated  225,000 students who received corporal punishment nationwide in 2006,  the latest figures available, were from the Lone Star State. _
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html?g=0

Now I think this is a great idea.  I've never had a problem with corporal punishment, but then I grew up going to private schools where more than once I was given a beating at morning assembly or my old school Sensei who regularly used the cane in class.  Not to mention my parents.  

I'm all for it, how about you guys?


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## dancingalone (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm a product of the Texas educational system.    No sneers, please.

Anyway, I was paddled a few times in elementary school.  It hurt and it deterred me from repeating what I did to get in trouble in the first place.  I have no objections to corporal punishment if applied in a fair fashion.

On a side note, one of the times I got paddled was because I got into a fight on the playground with another boy.  We both got three swats and were back in class learning 30 minutes later.  Nowadays, we'd probably be suspended from school immediately under some type of zero tolerance nonsensical rule.


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## LuckyKBoxer (Apr 16, 2010)

I came up in California in the public schools, and they had paddling when I was in school... I know firsthand. I am all for it.
Spare the rod and spoil the child is absolutely something I believe in.


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## Omar B (Apr 16, 2010)

Exactly, it curbs behavior and keeps kid in school.  Is suspension really a punishment when these kids have cable TV, high speed internet and video games at home?  Taking kids out of the classroom should not be such a go-to option.

By the way, I got it for leaving school without a parent.  I waited around after school to be picked up, I didn't see anyone so I walked to my mother's office.  She got to my school shortly after I left, didn't see me, it caused a minor panic on till someone from her bank called the school to let her know I was there.  Way I see it, I was 7 but deserved it.  Never left school by myself again.

Also getting caned in karate class for not paying attention or catching a cane across the back for a mistake in kata helped my karate a lot.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 16, 2010)

Personally, I'm against it, but that's because I do not believe in or endorse corporal punishment in general; even less so when it involves teachers, rather than parents, administering it.  

I'll leave the appropriate punitive action to the actual teachers and school administrators to determine; I have no real experience with disciplining children, especially not a group of them.  However, I'd like to point out that there's a spectrum of approaches to take; it's not either using the paddle or zero-tolerance suspensions.  I do believe in giving teachers discretion when it's their classroom.


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## Stac3y (Apr 16, 2010)

Omar B said:


> Is suspension really a punishment when these kids have cable TV, high speed internet and video games at home?


 
In my house, it would be. My kids know that, should they get into sufficient trouble at school to be suspended, I will make their lives HELL during that suspension. That being said, I am not a proponent of corporal punishment. My kids have been spanked fewer than half a dozen times (together), and they are very well-behaved, especially in school. There are more effective disciplinary methods than hitting.


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## clfsean (Apr 16, 2010)

Huzzah & about damn time somebody did something right in the school systems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unfortunately... let's see how long it takes for the first lawsuit to occur after an appropriate disciplinary action has been dispensed.


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## Omar B (Apr 16, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> In my house, it would be. My kids know that, should they get into sufficient trouble at school to be suspended, I will make their lives HELL during that suspension. That being said, I am not a proponent of corporal punishment. My kids have been spanked fewer than half a dozen times (together), and they are very well-behaved, especially in school. There are more effective disciplinary methods than hitting.



You make good points Stacy, but how many working parents would take the time to make sure that suspension period was as you put it a "living hell?"  In most cases it'll be like a short holiday I think.

But we all have our methods, I grew up with corporal punishment.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 16, 2010)

I just wrote a paper on this a few months back.
Points to consider,

The literature does not support CP, it has been shown to actually increase problems rather then decrease. I have yet to read a paper that came to the conclusion that CP works.
If CP is applied before guilt has been determined it is considered torture.
We do not use CP in our prisons, yet we use it on our children???
CP used against a spouse is domestic assault. 
If CP was indeed an effective means of discipline, it would never have been banned in half the US states.
 How many of us have had crap, insane teachers when we were in school? I had more than I could count. There is no chance in the world I would let any of these people decide to use physical violence on my or your children.
 
I think schools need a great many changes made, but instituting CP is not one of them. CP in Texas is brought to you by the people who consider Iron-age stories to be science.


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## blindsage (Apr 16, 2010)

Cannot and will never endorse corporal punishment for children.  If a teacher or school administrator ever lays a hand on one of my children they'll be extremely lucky if I don't return the favor.


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## Scott T (Apr 16, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I just wrote a paper on this a few months back.
> 
> Points to consider,
> 
> ...


 And yet, my favourite teacher was a man who twice threw a garbage can at me in class while in High School (and I'm not talking about a nice gentle underhand toss)...

Was CP banned because it was determined to be ineffective? Or was it banned because some left-wing PC idiots started squealing about it?

CP was banned in schools here just as I was just getting into Junior High. I was paddled at least once by pretty much every teacher from Kindergarten to the fifth grade. 

Kids still need discipline, and nowadays, with their busy work/play schedules, a lot of parents couldn't be interested in finding the time to care what their kid has been up to. Just let him/her do their own thing without boundaries.

There was a time when a teacher wasn't just a teacher, but also a surrogate parent for the day while the kids were at school. For those six or seven hours per day they had the right to behave as parents would, not only in discipline (even paddling when deemed necessary), but also in showing affection and helping a child deal with his or her non-school related problems.

Over the last couple of decades, society has eroded the role of the teacher in the child's life to just that of an desensatized automaton. A child is no longer expected to respect a person in that role and vice-versa. 

Teachers can longer enjoy their work, and to top it all off, everybody blames them when their idiot son or daughter is a failure in class (can I say that, or is 'everybody a winner' now?) 

It looks to me as though some Texas schools may be trying to bring some of that back. 

Some people claim that Corporal Punishment in a school is a way for somebody to punish and get respect through fear. To my mind, that's ********. I may have always respected these teachers (on a first-name basis with most of them now) but I never feared them.

These are just my rambling, incoherent observations. I'm still reeling (in a good way) from a conversation i just had...


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 16, 2010)

Scott T said:


> Or was it banned because some left-wing PC idiots started squealing about it?



Or maybe some right wing cracker permanently disabled some kid?


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## Deaf Smith (Apr 16, 2010)

I'm a Texican. I grew up in small Texas towns. Yes I got my butt whopped a few times in school.

And later in TKD I got a few 'attitude adjustments' to.

But by God, I grew up politically to the right of John Wayne, college educated, bible toten, and never have I been in trouble. Worked every day out of college (and some while in college and high school) and never took a dime in welfare.

So maybe those paddling&#8217;s didn&#8217;t hurt at all except a bit of pride. Might have done some good to!

Deaf


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 16, 2010)

blindsage said:


> Cannot and will never endorse corporal punishment for children.  If a teacher or school administrator ever lays a hand on one of my children they'll be extremely lucky if I don't return the favor.



Couldn't agree more, and here's the Hell of it: I was paddled myself. There was Christian Brother who taught grade eight at my school for some forty years. He taught me grade seven math and grade eight homeroom in the early seventies. Brother Arthur by this time was in his early sixties and kept a sawed-off hockey goalie stick by his desk. "Talkers up!" he'd call out, and up we'd get, march up to his desk, lift our blazers above our belts, lean over, and take our whacks. I don't resent it, but all hell would break loose if it had ever happened to my son growing up.

It was a different time. I remember seeing Brother angry. I never saw him hit anyone when he was angry -- a uniquely disciplined individual. I do recall seeing other teachers administer their version of corporal punishment when they were in a state of rage. Really sent chills down my spine to see a teacher strike a classmate across the knuckles with a heavy blackboard yardstick or a chalk compass. 

Times is changin'. People are far more individualistic. If kids don't respect traditional institutions like school, it's likely something they've learned at home, and hitting them at school isn't going to change that. We are obsessed with this scared-straight nonsense that we can shock children into behaving. Pure rubbish.


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## Carol (Apr 17, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> Or maybe some right wing cracker permanently disabled some kid?



Ouch! I'm hoping you meant "crackpot" and not "cracker"


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## Carol (Apr 17, 2010)

> Rules about paddling vary from district to district, but typically only  administrators, not teachers, can mete out the punishment, which is done  in private. Usually, a long, flat wooden paddle is used to give as many  as three blows across the student's clothed rear end, although Farmer  found students who had been hit many more times. Boys are overwhelmingly  the target.



So lemme get this straight.  A person of authority takes a young boy in to a private room in order to make physical contact with the boy's butt, and that person of authority may or may not follow the proscribed rules of conduct as they pertain to making physical contact with said boy.


The Archdiocese of Boston got in to a helluva lot of trouble that way.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 17, 2010)

If parents want their kids going to a school where the kids get paddled, then that is their prerogative.  I wouldn't send my kids to that school, but it's none of my business if someone decides to do so.


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## Carol (Apr 17, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> If parents want their kids going to a school where the kids get paddled, then that is their prerogative.  I wouldn't send my kids to that school, but it's none of my business if someone decides to do so.


 
I understand where you are coming from, but I would be more ammenable to that viewpoint if Texas has school choice or a voucher system.  It does not, as far as I know.   So, if a parent does not want their child to go to a school where the kids get paddled, their choices are home schooling, paying thousands in tuition, or moving.


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## Marginal (Apr 17, 2010)

Scott T said:


> Over the last couple of decades, society has eroded the role of the teacher in the child's life to just that of an desensatized automaton. A child is no longer expected to respect a person in that role and vice-versa.



I dunno. It seems more like society in general has elected disrespect teachers at every opportunity. 

In most other societies, teachers are respected. 

In the US, people frequently scream and cry at the thought of a teacher getting paid to teach their kids at all. They hate that they have pensions. They hate that they have a modicum of job security. They say education has failed with no meaningful data to support the assertion etc. Far better they get paid as little as possible while jumping through even more hoops at some private school. 

So the parents don't respect the teachers either. In that climate, I can't see how a teacher paddling a kid will somehow make the profession respectable to the anti intellectual set. You'll just have more parents hovering around the classrooms further disrupting class because they're incapable of trusting the teacher.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 17, 2010)

All I can add to this debate is annecdotal evidence and I believe I've mentioned these memories before when we last touched on this subject.

I went to a Secondary School with a couple of thousand pupils and discipline was maintained by a variety of means, up to and including the cane.  

In the seven years I was there (five years of 'O' levels and two years of Sixth Form for my 'A' levels to go to university) I can only recall a very few occasions where the cane was used.  There were a few other events where a teacher used a whack to obtain immediate attention and compliance and a few others where 'missiles' (chalk et al) ensured that disruption in the classroom ceased.

I should add also that if you got disciplined at school then you got disciplined harder at home as your actions had indirectly brought a degree of shame upon 'your house'.

Now that might be used to argue that there was therefore no need for corporal punishment as it was so seldom used.  I am sure that all of us here are familiar with the concept of deterrence?  That's how corporal punishment works, especially when the ultimate sanction is to receive the cane in front of the whole school during assembly (the morning religious service).

Now Morgan noted that studies had shown that corporal punishment was an ineffective way of maintaining order in schools.  I am ever one for scientific evidence and would be happy to look at those studies (and their under-pinning assumptions and data gathering methods).  But in this case those studies do not gel with my own actual experiences and those of others.

Why is that?  Are all our memories faulty or does the flaw lie in the studies?


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## grydth (Apr 17, 2010)

If there was a thread about a new city law allowing misbehaving dogs to be whipped in public, the screams would be deafening..... somehow its okay to do it to human children, though. 

As others have noted, the potential for lawsuits and sexual abuse claims is significant. Can't we restore respect without physically beating children with a stick? 

We've managed to raise 4 fine kids without taking a stick to any of them. I wonder about those who can't - - - is the problem with the kid or the parent?

If its violent tradition you all want, fine. I am restoring the practice of caning by gentlemen. Here's how it works: You strike my child with an object and I apply my walking stick to your head and knees.... and continue until I am satisfied I have _your_ respect.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 17, 2010)

And the leap to extremes begins ...

Those are not reasonable parallels to draw at all.  

I am off to hit {imaginary} people with swords - what conclusions can be drawn from that?  Violence has it's place and it's uses - as with fire, uncontrolled it is bad but it can be harnessed to produce much that is beneficial to all.

I shall withdraw from this discourse before a sense of annoyance flowers where reason should be.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 17, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> In my house, it would be. My kids know that, should they get into sufficient trouble at school to be suspended, I will make their lives HELL during that suspension. That being said, I am not a proponent of corporal punishment. My kids have been spanked fewer than half a dozen times (together), and they are very well-behaved, especially in school. There are more effective disciplinary methods than hitting.



+1.

Yes, I acknowledge that there are instances where it is warranted. I have done so myself with my kids. But there is no need for it to be the default punishment. The problem is that it is the easiest punishment. Working with timeout works as well. but the problem is that in the beginning, you have to be firm and put them back if they walk (or crawl) away. It requires an effort on the part of the parents and it requires consistency. Beating is much easier. They annoy you and you beat them.

And I would not like it if other parties spanked my kids. Especially if it was done in private. Because you also open the door for the sadists to dole out punishment for no other purpose than their enjoyment. In Belgium, the majority of the schools were Catholic schools. Corporeal punishment was used to an unhealthy degree. And from the stories I heard from older people, it served more as a way for authority people to either vent their anger / frustration, or to satisfy their lust for inflicting pain.

But maybe the teachers in Texas are all upstanding pillars of society, every single one of them, who would not stoop to these levels, and who would be ever vigilant to keep out those who would do these things. And maybe, if I close my eyes and make a wish, there will be world peace.


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## terryl965 (Apr 17, 2010)

Carol said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but I would be more ammenable to that viewpoint if Texas has school choice or a voucher system. It does not, as far as I know. So, if a parent does not want their child to go to a school where the kids get paddled, their choices are home schooling, paying thousands in tuition, or moving.


 
That is not true Carol, Texas will allow any parent to put there child on any school they have a choice. Every year people go to have there childern transfered into a different school as long as there is room it will be granted.


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## grydth (Apr 17, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> And the leap to extremes begins ...
> 
> Those are not reasonable parallels to draw at all.
> 
> ...



What, sir, is wrong with a "sense of annoyance"?

I, personally. hope that I annoy the piss out of this Forum each and every week. 

I do not say that in any hateful or spiteful or malign sense whatsoever. But, Sukerkin, this world is slipping into Hell...... and I'd rather not go quietly. We cannot all be Caesars....but we can be Tribunes, by God.

We need to be annoyed, pushed out of the comfort zone, the box - - - at least made to re-examine why we are in that box, and why we stay.

This place exists to exchange ideas, to debate policy. What a boring place it would be if  everyone sounded alike ..... mooo... bah ....agree ...thanks ....<yawn>

I would rather hate people, and have them hate me, than not know them at all.

Do you or I have all, or even any of the answers? Maybe not..... but someone who I make spit out the morning coffee, exclaim "That stupid little *&^%" and post back.... maybe that person.... or the next.... or the next.

So please.... if you are "annoyed", do not depart to slay *<SAFE>* imaginary people.

Stay here... and I challenge you......draw.


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## Blade96 (Apr 17, 2010)

Dont believe in cp.

Grew up with parents who got spanked in school. as a result and believing that it was right they did it to me. and my bro had copied them and started hitting me also. 

It didnt do a thing to change my behavior. Nor did I respect them. in fact i hated and feared them growing up.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 17, 2010)

CP doesnt generate respect, it generates fear.
A smack on the *** *by a* *parent* on the very rare occasion is their choice.
In the schools, the vast majority of children who get CP are poor children, from broken homes and are at high risk of dropping out. Does anyone really think that physical violence against them is going to make them a better person? Again I bring up the point again, if CP worked, we would be using it in prisons on our inmates.
In the kindergarten class Ive been working in, it breaks your heart to see the poverty and abuse many of these kids experience daily. So what do we do? We ban teachers from giving kids a hug, but we let them beat the kids. **** that makes sense! Ive had so many kids walk up to me out of the blue and give me hugs it amazed me.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 17, 2010)

The problem is that physical punishments are applied as a one-size-fits-all solution.  Kids aren't all one size.  Some kids respond well to physical discipline.  Others, it just hardens their will, makes them angry, and makes them lash out.  Some kids respond well to non-physical methods, and again others don't.

I doubt the school system has the discernment to apply appropriate punishments to the appropriate individuals.  Most parents can't even manage that, and they are the ones raising the kids in question.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 17, 2010)

The last time we discussed this, the same problem was highlighted.  There is a world of difference between discipline and random violence.  I don't have a difficulty telling them apart and it is a puzzle how it seems such a cloudy issue.  

The subject is the proper application of corporal punishment in schools to act as a deterrent for those who will not respond to other methods.  Some methods also do not work in isolation and I think that CP falls under that category.  

You (global meaning) have a society where children are the leaders and parents and those in authority are, it seems powerless to make sure that the new generations grow into something useful.  Annecdotally, it was not always that way and has only become so since the use of physical sanctions were not only dropped but made illegal.

Hmm ... correlation does not equal causation but still ... I wonder ...

As I said, I am not getting further involved in this as intelligent people willfully not reaching what I consider intelligent solutions is a danger to my health.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 17, 2010)

grydth said:


> If there was a thread about a new city law allowing misbehaving dogs to be whipped in public, the screams would be deafening..... somehow its okay to do it to human children, though.
> 
> As others have noted, the potential for lawsuits and sexual abuse claims is significant. Can't we restore respect without physically beating children with a stick?
> 
> ...



I am raising both of my children without striking them and both of them are well behaved in school.  I personally don't want anyone laying a finger on my children and will react accordingly if they do.

Noting that, if a community decides to institute paddling at a school in my neighborhood, I would go to the school and speak my mind about the issue to those who cared to listen.  If they still wanted to do it and I was one voice in the wilderness my choice would be to take my children out of that school and find another that doesn't paddle.  

One of the issues we face as a country is that our schools are continually NOT doing what parents expect them to do.  Our schools need parent input and they need to be teaching how the parents want them to teach.  This is how we will change them from institutions of social engineering into institutions of learning.  This is how we'll draw more parents into the picture and get them more involved.

*Carol* makes a good point about school choice.  We need that too.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 17, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> CP doesnt generate respect, it generates fear.
> A smack on the *** *by a* *parent* on the very rare occasion is their choice.
> In the schools, the vast majority of children who get CP are poor children, from broken homes and are at high risk of dropping out. Does anyone really think that physical violence against them is going to make them a better person? Again I bring up the point again, if CP worked, we would be using it in prisons on our inmates.
> In the kindergarten class Ive been working in, it breaks your heart to see the poverty and abuse many of these kids experience daily. So what do we do? We ban teachers from giving kids a hug, but we let them beat the kids. **** that makes sense! Ive had so many kids walk up to me out of the blue and give me hugs it amazed me.



Absolutely, there are many occasions where it is just not appropriate.  However, what if the community came to the PTA meetings at the school and continually told teachers and administrators that this is what they wanted?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 17, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> The last time we discussed this, the same problem was highlighted.  There is a world of difference between discipline and random violence.  I don't have a difficulty telling them apart and it is a puzzle how it seems such a cloudy issue.
> 
> The subject is the proper application of corporal punishment in schools to act as a deterrent for those who will not respond to other methods.  Some methods also do not work in isolation and I think that CP falls under that category.
> 
> ...



Our society teaches children to be out of control.  Turn off the TV.  Throw out the video games.  Get books and toys.  Play outside.

The issue is bigger then the removal of CP as a form of discipline.  I choose not to paddle my children out of a sense of consistency.  In my mind, I can't teach people that violence is a last resort in Martial Arts and then smack my children for various infractions.  That said, what right do I have to force that point of view on anyone?  

I think that if our society respected each others opinions and learned to live with each other we'd probably turn the corner to becoming more sociable again.


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## grydth (Apr 17, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> The last time we discussed this, the same problem was highlighted.  There is a world of difference between discipline and random violence.  I don't have a difficulty telling them apart and it is a puzzle how it seems such a cloudy issue.
> 
> The subject is the proper application of corporal punishment in schools to act as a deterrent for those who will not respond to other methods.  Some methods also do not work in isolation and I think that CP falls under that category.
> 
> ...



Simply because violence is state sanctioned does not make it legitimate or appropriate or beneficial.

People seeing things differently than I do makes them neither health hazards nor unintelligent.

Anecdotally, we have 4 children who are wonderful human beings without our having raised a hand, much less a stick, to them. Indeed, I have stressed that violence has no place in our household.... not for any purpose. If you want to tell my wife that she is not the unquestioned leader of the household, you'd best keep that katana handy.

When I was growing up, my father - one of the toughest men I ever knew - did not have to resort to hitting me. He did, however, make it quite clear to anyone who endangered me that their remaining existence would most likely be both brief and painful..... talk about what we've lost, well it isn't letting people paddle our kids, but rather too often it is the total commitment we should have to our kids, to include the willingness to protect them.

No, I do not differentiate between violence types as potentially applied to my children. I don't care who you are: an administrator with a paddle, a bishop with happy fingers, a paroled pederast, whatever.....touch my kids and I will cane the living snot out of you.


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## dancingalone (Apr 17, 2010)

Carol said:


> I understand where you are coming from, but I would be more ammenable to that viewpoint if Texas has school choice or a voucher system.  It does not, as far as I know.   So, if a parent does not want their child to go to a school where the kids get paddled, their choices are home schooling, paying thousands in tuition, or moving.



When I was in school, there was a handbook handed out at the beginning of the school year where corporal punishment was explained.  The parent could opt out by specifying he/she preferred in school suspension for his/her child.  A signed form from the handbook allowed you to do this and it also confirmed you had read and understood the policies.

My parents probably thought I needed the butt-whupping.


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## Blade96 (Apr 17, 2010)

when my niece starts walkin and she is close to something dangerous or touching things she shouldnt, I'd put a lock on my room door and physically stop her from touching the stove. But I wont hit her.

and I'd probably wanna cane my brother if he ever hit his own daughter. Lord, that's just wrong.

and reminds me of something stevebjj said - about people changing the shape of a hotdog so kids wont choke? 

CP is that - they want an easy solution to a tough problem. 

Problem is - they arent doing their ******* job as a parent. They have to actually TEACH a kid and pull em away from a stove and teach them how the correct way to pet a cat. Oh my. No, they think just strike and thats it.

Parenting is hard - oh noes. run away.


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## Drac (Apr 18, 2010)

I am all in favor of CP..I was paddled myself a few times and it left an impression..My Father's attitude was if you get paddled at school, come home and tell me..If I think you deserved it you will get it again from me.If I think the school was wrong I will pay them a visit..The only time he visited the Jr High is when the Assistant Principal gave my brother 25 morning detentions for talking during a National Junior Honor Society assembly..

For the small handful here that actually take the time to teach and discipline your children, you are outnumbered 100 to 1 by the parents that don't do anything.I cannot even begin to relate the incidents when I was a LEO and had interactions with disruptive juveniles and their parents..I was basically called a liar because "My child wouldn't do that"..


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## blindsage (Apr 19, 2010)

Drac said:


> For the small handful here that actually take the time to teach and discipline your children, you are outnumbered 100 to 1 by the parents that don't do anything.I cannot even begin to relate the incidents when I was a LEO and had interactions with disruptive juveniles and their parents..I was basically called a liar because "My child wouldn't do that"..


So, the answer to that is to hit the children?

I'm not really sure that I understand the rationale that "I was spanked, and I turned out okay".  My parents are divorced and I turned out okay, is that really the best situation for a child?  Most people turn out relatively ok despite their childhood, that doesn't mean there isn't a better way to raise children.  I was paddled in school a couple of times and my parents spanked me a few times growing up, so yes I'm familiar with the experience.  But there is no way anyone will ever convince me that spanking a child or hitting them in anyway isn't just societally condoned violence against children.  If children are out of control the parents are the ones to look act, engaging in violence against children is really not the most productive manner to resolve the problem.  And if you feel the need to resort to raising a hand against your children (including spanking), then maybe it's time to stand back and look at your own behavior and what kind of example you're setting for your children.  There are no truly bad children, but there are plenty of bad parents as well as plenty of well-meaning parents with poor parenting skills.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 19, 2010)

Drac said:


> For the small handful here that actually take the time to teach and discipline your children, you are outnumbered 100 to 1 by the parents that don't do anything.I cannot even begin to relate the incidents when I was a LEO and had interactions with disruptive juveniles and their parents..I was basically called a liar because *"My child wouldn't do that*"..



Trust me, I know where you are coming from.
I am not like that. I demand discipline, and I get it. Even other people's kids behave better around me than they do around their parents. I've found that that just saying 'this is not right. we don't do those things here' can be an eye opener for some kids.

that said, if I belong to the 1 in 100 (and I think I do. I'll certainly be the last to say that my daughter wouldn't do something) this means that the majority of the teachers will be drawn from among those other 99. Meaning that a lot of kids would be cp'ed for the wrong reasons, or in a wrong way, no?


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## Drac (Apr 20, 2010)

blindsage said:


> \ I was paddled in school a couple of times and my parents spanked me a few times growing up, so yes I'm familiar with the experience. But there is no way anyone will ever convince me that spanking a child or hitting them in anyway isn't just societally condoned violence against children. If children are out of control the parents are the ones to look act, engaging in violence against children is really not the most productive manner to resolve the problem. And if you feel the need to resort to raising a hand against your children (including spanking), then maybe it's time to stand back and look at your own behavior and what kind of example you're setting for your children. There are no truly bad children, but there are plenty of bad parents as well as plenty of well-meaning parents with poor parenting skills.


 
So then WHAT do you suggest they do?? Talking does not work..No bad children?? Thank you Father Flanagan..There are a lot of kids out of control and the parents dont do **** about it because they refuse to believe that their child would act up..I have personally seen a child out of control and the Mothers attempt to start a corrective dialog ignored..The same child was taken to the mens room where the Father and applied a swift hand across their backside and the disruptive behavior ceased..


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## Drac (Apr 20, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Trust me, I know where you are coming from.
> I am not like that. I demand discipline, and I get it. Even other people's kids behave better around me than they do around their parents. I've found that that just saying 'this is not right. we don't do those things here' can be an eye opener for some kids.


 
That is a rare gift you have..a young disruptive child was visiting our dojang as his sister was training despite his Father sitting next to him and telling him that Master Steve and I were in charge and must be listened to and my own version of "we don't do those things here" said in my best cop voice I was ignored.. The parents threats to take away every privledge he had and was ignored.My Father would have taken me outside and gave me a good swat..They just kept attempting to talk him out of acting up..I pity his teachers.. 



Bruno@MT said:


> that said, if I belong to the 1 in 100 (and I think I do. I'll certainly be the last to say that my daughter wouldn't do something) this means that the majority of the teachers will be drawn from among those other 99. Meaning that a lot of kids would be cp'ed for the wrong reasons, or in a wrong way, no?


 
Most of the ones CP's including me were caught red handed and the old paddle was applied to the backside, never anywhere else and never with a hand..


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## blindsage (Apr 20, 2010)

Drac said:


> So then WHAT do you suggest they do?? Talking does not work..No bad children?? Thank you Father Flanagan..There are a lot of kids out of control and the parents dont do **** about it because they refuse to believe that their child would act up..I have personally seen a child out of control and the Mothers attempt to start a corrective dialog ignored..The same child was taken to the mens room where the Father and applied a swift hand across their backside and the disruptive behavior ceased..


Children's behavior doesn't exist in a vacuum.  It the child is significantly acting up there's one of two causes, *poor parenting skills and examples by the parents*, or a significant emotional/behavioral/chemical imbalance problem with the child.  Neither of which is resolved by hitting the child.  Sure their are plenty of anecdotes of children behaving poorly, getting hit and acting 'right'.  That doesn't make it the correct action.  The correct action is for the parents to learn better PARENTING SKILLS in order to curb the behavior in constructive ways.  Yes, this is a long term investment for the parents.  What your talking about is a poor band-aid applied to an immediate issue, what I'm talking about is the reality of the long term situation.  The answer to poor parenting skills is not violence against children.


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## blindsage (Apr 20, 2010)

Drac said:


> That is a rare gift you have..a young disruptive child was visiting our dojang as his sister was training despite his Father sitting next to him and telling him that Master Steve and I were in charge and must be listened to and my own version of "we don't do those things here" said in my best cop voice I was ignored.. The parents threats to take away every privledge he had and was ignored.My Father would have taken me outside and gave me a good swat..They just kept attempting to talk him out of acting up..I pity his teachers..


 
So the only response you can think of to obviously poor parenting skills is to strike the child? Nothing else? That to me is not an example of a child that needs to be hit, but an example of parents who need education in child rearing.


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## Drac (Apr 21, 2010)

blindsage said:


> That to me is not an example of a child that needs to be hit, but an example of parents who need education in child rearing.


 
My parents were not poor parents and their skills produced 3 boys that did them proud.However their came a time when all the talking, yelling, and threating did NO GOOD and a swift hand across the butt drove home the point there were trying to make.. I can see that debating this point further would be counter-productive, you have your beliefs and I have mine.


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## dancingalone (Apr 21, 2010)

Seems to me that those against CP always assume a child is rational and can be reasoned with.  Not true in my opinion.  Children, especially those in the toddler range, are little masses of chemicals and enzymes.  SOME are stable and can understand better the requirements to be a member of their family and society.  Others may need some physical encouragement to learn until they develop more physically, emotionally, and mentally.

There's no universal solution for every child.  Maybe some of you only have experience with the first group of children.  In my case, I needed a swat from time to time, and surely there are other children just like me.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Seems to me that those against CP always assume a child is rational and can be reasoned with. Not true in my opinion. Children, especially those in the toddler range, are little masses of chemicals and enzymes. SOME are stable and can understand better the requirements to be a member of their family and society. Others may need some physical encouragement to learn until they develop more physically, emotionally, and mentally.
> 
> There's no universal solution for every child. Maybe some of you only have experience with the first group of children. In my case, I needed a swat from time to time, and surely there are other children just like me.


 
You're probably right; different kids certainly respond better and worse to differing parenting styles. However, I'll go out on a limb and say that those of us who are against CP have more of an issue with the "spare the rod, spoil the child" idea; i.e. anyone who doesn't use a paddle or a swat on the butt is raising a spoiled, lazy brat. Me, I don't see any reason to resort to a physical reprimand when taking away privileges or forced yardwork could teach the same lessons.

The other aspect of the whole CP-in-schools issue is the in-schools part. If there are parents who want to rely on CP to reprimand their children, I wont want to be in the room when it happens, but ok. However, a teacher in the public school system using it? That I have a problem with.


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## blindsage (Apr 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Seems to me that those against CP always assume a child is rational and can be reasoned with. Not true in my opinion. Children, especially those in the toddler range, are little masses of chemicals and enzymes. SOME are stable and can understand better the requirements to be a member of their family and society. Others may need some physical encouragement to learn until they develop more physically, emotionally, and mentally.
> 
> There's no universal solution for every child. Maybe some of you only have experience with the first group of children. In my case, I needed a swat from time to time, and surely there are other children just like me.


The issue isn't rationalizing vs. a physical solution. The issue is behavior. If you want to understand behavior then you have to learn about behavior. Assuming that those who are against CP are just relegated to using rationalizing completely misses the point. Hitting a child is a stop gap method for a lack of understanding of where behavior comes from, how it works, and how to alter it in a healthy constructive manner. No, child needs to be hit. A lot of parents don't understand child behavior and psychology and resort to hitting because of it's apparent, immediate effect. Patience is required to understand and raise children, striking a child is the overt evidence of a lack of proper patience on the part of a parent. In ANY other aspect of life, striking someone because they aren't behaving the way we like is completely and utterly unnacceptable, so how do we justify striking the most vulnerable people in our society who have a difficult time knowing what behavior is correct through no fault of their own?


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## dancingalone (Apr 21, 2010)

blindsage said:


> The issue isn't rationalizing vs. a physical solution. The issue is behavior. If you want to understand behavior then you have to learn about behavior. Assuming that those who are against CP are just relegated to using rationalizing completely misses the point. Hitting a child is a stop gap method for a lack of understanding of where behavior comes from, how it works, and how to alter it in a healthy constructive manner. No, child needs to be hit. A lot of parents don't understand child behavior and psychology and resort to hitting because of it's apparent, immediate effect. Patience is required to understand and raise children, striking a child is the overt evidence of a lack of proper patience on the part of a parent. In ANY other aspect of life, striking someone because they aren't behaving the way we like is completely and utterly unnacceptable, so how do we justify striking the most vulnerable people in our society who have a difficult time knowing what behavior is correct through no fault of their own?



I think you are in danger of over-intellectualizing parenting.  Behavioral 'science' is a relatively new field and even experts in the area admit it's still far from being a hard, quantitative field of inquiry.

I believe there was good parenting before psychology became a major at every university out there.  And yes a few judiciously applied swats here and there to your childen doesn't preclude one from being a good parent.


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## blindsage (Apr 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I think you are in danger of over-intellectualizing parenting. Behavioral 'science' is a relatively new field and even experts in the area admit it's still far from being a hard, quantitative field of inquiry.
> 
> I believe there was good parenting before psychology became a major at every university out there. And yes a few judiciously applied swats here and there to your childen doesn't preclude one from being a good parent.


The same rationale used to be used by men in 'disciplining' their wives.


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## dancingalone (Apr 21, 2010)

blindsage said:


> The same rationale used to be used by men in 'disciplining' their wives.



Bad example.  Wives are adults and free-willed, whatever their socio-economic reality.  Children by definition aren't competent to make their own choices and must rely on a custodial parent to make arrangements for them.

Anyway, I totally reject the idea that one can always talk one's children into behaving and doing the right thing.  With some children, perhaps that's possible.  Others are more unruly, and I don't discount a biological reason for perhaps being the difference.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Bad example. Wives are adults and free-willed, whatever their socio-economic reality. Children by definition aren't competent to make their own choices and must rely on a custodial parent to make arrangements for them.


 
I think blindsage's point was that, back then, women were regarded in the same manner you're regarding children: unable to make their own choices and dependent on a custodian (i.e. husband).  Not saying it's innaccurate about kids, but he was addressing the rationale, not the truth of the matter.



> Anyway, I totally reject the idea that one can always talk one's children into behaving and doing the right thing. With some children, perhaps that's possible. Others are more unruly, and I don't discount a biological reason for perhaps being the difference.


 
You're kind of arguing with a made-up person here.  I can't recall anyone in this discussion saying that one can always talk children (especially young ones) into proper behavior.  As I said previously, there's a spectrum of parental responses between corporal punishment on one end and rational discussion with a 4-year-old on the other.


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## dancingalone (Apr 21, 2010)

> but he was addressing the rationale,



I don't think so.  He made a completely bad analogy by trying to tie wife-beating into the subject of CP for children.  It's about as relevant pointing out that any rationalization for slavery and slave-beating is bad.



> You're kind of arguing with a made-up person here.  I can't recall  anyone in this discussion saying that one can always talk children  (especially young ones) into proper behavior.



No?  Just read blindsage's post above yours.  He seems to be stating that striking your children is always unjustifiable, which would seem to indicate that there's always another more peaceable option like talking.

 "Hitting a child is a stop gap method for a lack of understanding of  where behavior comes from, how it works, and how to alter it in a  healthy constructive manner." 

"No, child needs to be hit. "

"A lot of parents  don't understand child behavior and psychology and resort to hitting  because of it's apparent, immediate effect."

"Patience is required to  understand and raise children, striking a child is the overt evidence of  a lack of proper patience on the part of a parent. "

"In ANY other aspect  of life, striking someone because they aren't behaving the way we like  is completely and utterly unnacceptable, so how do we justify striking  the most vulnerable people in our society who have a difficult time  knowing what behavior is correct through no fault of their own?"


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> No? Just read blindsage's post above yours. He seems to be stating that striking your children is always unjustifiable, which would seem to indicate that there's always another more peaceable option like talking.


 
Once again, there's a spectrum of responses. The exclusion of corporal punishment (i.e. "striking your children is always unjustifiable") doesn't necessarily only leave talking to them like an adult. There's extra chores, removal of privileges, time out somewhere other than their bedroom, soap in the mouth, yelling, forcing an apology. I'm not necessarily advocating using any of the above, and I recognize that some of them will only be so effective with children of different ages, but there's a lot more available besides CP or a sit-down chat. You seem to think that excluding CP means only leaving open discussion. 

Regardless, as far as use of CP _in schools_ is concerned, I see a few problems with it. First and foremost is, I've met some public school teachers in my day whom I wouldn't trust with talking to my child after class, let alone administering corporal punishment. Second, the teacher's role in disciplining a child really should be maintaining order in the classroom, not really dolling out justice, and I don't think CP is the only viable way of doing this. 

More generally, CP a) doesn't teach the kid why their behavior's wrong, it just teaches them not to get caught, and b) it can potentially teach them a number of other not-so-nice lessons, such as "violence is an acceptable solution" or "don't trust mommy and daddy", or even "resent and hate authority figures". These problems are especially propounded, I believe, in a classroom setting. 

Like I said, there's other ways of achieving the same goals without risking the other not-so-nice lessons being learned. That's why I object to corporal punishment in general, and particularly in a school setting.


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## blindsage (Apr 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Bad example. Wives are adults and free-willed, whatever their socio-economic reality. Children by definition aren't competent to make their own choices and must rely on a custodial parent to make arrangements for them.


It's only a bad example to you because you think striking a child is an appropriate response to a given set of behaviors.



> Anyway, I totally reject the idea that one can always talk one's children into behaving and doing the right thing. With some children, perhaps that's possible. Others are more unruly, and I don't discount a biological reason for perhaps being the difference.


As Random has pointed out I have nowhere stated that talking a child into behaving is the only alternative.  You have interpreted that.  As I said before it's not a dichotomy between talking it out and hitting the child.  There are a LOT more dynamics and options available than just those.


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## dancingalone (Apr 21, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> I'm not necessarily advocating using any of the above, and I recognize that some of them will only be so effective with children of different ages, but there's a lot more available besides CP or a sit-down chat. You seem to think that excluding CP means only leaving open discussion.



Let's stick to the punishments for small children since CP is primarily (I hope) meant for them.

"time out somewhere other than their  bedroom, soap in the mouth, yelling, forcing an apology"

All of these are aggressive actions in of themselves and they rely on the implicit threat of parental authority as the punitive measure.  If you're a big fan of child behavior psychology some even argue that the act of yelling is violence towards your child. 




> Regardless, as far as use of CP _in schools_ is concerned, I see a few problems with it. First and foremost is, I've met some public school teachers in my day whom I wouldn't trust with talking to my child after class, let alone administering corporal punishment. Second, the teacher's role in disciplining a child really should be maintaining order in the classroom, not really dolling out justice, and I don't think CP is the only viable way of doing this.
> 
> More generally, CP a) doesn't teach the kid why their behavior's wrong, it just teaches them not to get caught, and b) it can potentially teach them a number of other not-so-nice lessons, such as "violence is an acceptable solution" or "don't trust mommy and daddy", or even "resent and hate authority figures". These problems are especially propounded, I believe, in a classroom setting.
> 
> Like I said, there's other ways of achieving the same goals without risking the other not-so-nice lessons being learned. That's why I object to corporal punishment in general, and particularly in a school setting.


These are better arguments against CP in my opinion.  It's not like I think CP should be universally applied in all situations.  Use it thoughtfully without anger.  Use it wisely and judiciously and explain to the child why they are getting a swat.  CP is a tool.   Like any other tool it has its limits.  I'm inclined to think it works best with small children.


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## dancingalone (Apr 21, 2010)

blindsage said:


> It's only a bad example to you because you think striking a child is an appropriate response to a given set of behaviors.



Yeah, this seems to be turning into a neener, neener type discussion, so I'll bow out unless someone has something new to add.


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## Darksoul (Apr 23, 2010)

2 cents.

-My own experience: my father never really hit my brothers or myself, at least not that I recall. Maybe when we were really small. I just understood that I was not to make my father angry. How I knew that, I have no idea. When I got older, my father turned to lecturing me. And how I hated to be lectured for 2 hours or so. Shudder. I turned out alright.

-Now, how about instead of CP, we use PD. As in Physical Discipline. Beyond gym class. If a teacher catches a student doing something wrong, discipline them with exercise. Pushups on the spot. And for every infraction, keep increasing the numbers. Jumping jacks, sit-ups/crunches. Right in the hallway, right in front of other students.

-Thoughts?

Andrew


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## Blade96 (Apr 26, 2010)

Drac said:


> That is a rare gift you have..a young disruptive child was visiting our dojang as his sister was training despite his Father sitting next to him and telling him that Master Steve and I were in charge and must be listened to and my own version of "we don't do those things here" said in my best cop voice I was ignored.. The parents threats to take away every privledge he had and was ignored.My Father would have taken me outside and gave me a good swat..They just kept attempting to talk him out of acting up..I pity his teachers..
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the ones CP's including me were caught red handed and the old paddle was applied to the backside, never anywhere else and never with a hand..





blindsage said:


> So the only response you can think of to obviously poor parenting skills is to strike the child? Nothing else? That to me is not an example of a child that needs to be hit, but an example of parents who need education in child rearing.





dancingalone said:


> Yeah, this seems to be turning into a neener, neener type discussion, so I'll bow out unless someone has something new to add.



I have something new. I'll bring up the example of the small child in the dojo (sorry dojang but i am a karateka) and the example of the small child in the doctor's office waiting that I saw many times. I think even then there are better alternatives to cp. the child in these situations is acting up because children can't sit and be quiet for that long, especially small children. I've seen children act up while waiting for the doctor because they had nothing to occupy them with. And I've seen children play quite happily with something that occupied them and they were fine. The answer to that is give them a book to read or a toy to play with instead of cp. They need stimulation and something to pass the time with and not cp. I have also seen parents bring children up to their office at university and they expected their very small ones to sit and be quiet while the parent worked. WTF! The parents didnt bring anything for them to do ffs.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 26, 2010)

Funny how some people here complain that spanking children teaches them to solve their problems with violence, but if a teacher spanks their children, for ostensibly disciplinary and not abusive purposes, they would solve that problem with violence.

Kinda contradictory, don't ya think....???


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 27, 2010)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> Funny how some people here complain that spanking children teaches them to solve their problems with violence, but if a teacher spanks their children, for ostensibly disciplinary and not abusive purposes, they would solve that problem with violence.
> 
> Kinda contradictory, don't ya think....???


 
Wait, what?  Want to run that one by me again?


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## dancingalone (Apr 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I have something new. I'll bring up the example of the small child in the dojo (sorry dojang but i am a karateka) and the example of the small child in the doctor's office waiting that I saw many times. I think even then there are better alternatives to cp. the child in these situations is acting up because children can't sit and be quiet for that long, especially small children. I've seen children act up while waiting for the doctor because they had nothing to occupy them with. And I've seen children play quite happily with something that occupied them and they were fine. The answer to that is give them a book to read or a toy to play with instead of cp. They need stimulation and something to pass the time with and not cp. I have also seen parents bring children up to their office at university and they expected their very small ones to sit and be quiet while the parent worked. WTF! The parents didnt bring anything for them to do ffs.



Blade, that might be an example of where CP would be inappropriate.  

Here's an example where I think it was the right punishment.  I swatted my four year old son a little while ago.  We have a gas range at home and he's very interested in fire right now.  He's been told time and time again that fire is dangerous and that he's not allowed to touch the range at all until he is older and can understand the usages of fire better.  I caught him on a chair turning one of the burners on while I was letting the dog out the backyard.  My son got a hard swat on the bottom, a verbal reprimand, and he was sent to timeout for 2 minutes.

Appropriate correction?  I think so.  He is 4.  CP is very much a valuable tool at this age.


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## Blade96 (Apr 27, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Blade, that might be an example of where CP would be inappropriate.
> 
> Here's an example where I think it was the right punishment.  I swatted my four year old son a little while ago.  We have a gas range at home and he's very interested in fire right now.  He's been told time and time again that fire is dangerous and that he's not allowed to touch the range at all until he is older and can understand the usages of fire better.  I caught him on a chair turning one of the burners on while I was letting the dog out the backyard.  My son got a hard swat on the bottom, a verbal reprimand, and he was sent to timeout for 2 minutes.
> 
> Appropriate correction?  I think so.  He is 4.  CP is very much a valuable tool at this age.



I was wondering, Couldn't you just disconnect the burners/gas range when you're not using it/you're not around/etc so that he can't turn it on? That way cp wouldn't even have to be used at all. Could be done until he's old enough to understand.

No you can't reason very well with a 4 year old. When my cousin was 4 i tried to teach him how to play with my cat (who was just a few months old at the time, now she's going to be eight in september) but he started being rough with the kitten. I just said that if he kept that up he wouldnt be permitted to play with her. he never stopped, so I followed through on it. No cp and he got the message.

Just seems like to protect them until they are able to understand, like putting a railing around the stove (there's another idea about the burners) to keep them away til they can understand. cp doesnt really DO anything. In my opinion, it doesnt really teach.


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## dancingalone (Apr 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I was wondering, Couldn't you just disconnect the burners/gas range when you're not using it/you're not around/etc so that he can't turn it on? That way cp wouldn't even have to be used at all. Could be done until he's old enough to understand.
> 
> Just seems like to protect them until they are able to understand, like  putting a railing around the stove (there's another idea about the  burners) to keep them away til they can understand. cp doesnt really DO  anything. In my opinion.



The point is to make sure he knows the rules for his own safety and for his proper integration into his family and his school/daycare.  I can't possibly protect him from every danger lurking out there.  I might be able to wall off the range but what do I do about him teasing the family dog and pulling her tail?  It's unreasonable to try to work with everything else in the environment when the solution lies with the child.

HE needs to learn the rules and for now because Daddy said so suffices when it is not possible to give him a longer explanation.


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## Blade96 (Apr 27, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The point is to make sure he knows the rules for his own safety and for his proper integration into his family and his school/daycare.  I can't possibly protect him from every danger lurking out there.  I might be able to wall off the range but what do I do about him teasing the family dog and pulling her tail?  It's unreasonable to try to work with everything else in the environment when the solution lies with the child.
> 
> HE needs to learn the rules and for now because Daddy said so suffices when it is not possible to give him a longer explanation.



well pets and small children....my opinions on that is for another topic. But basically I didnt get my first pet - my cat Fluffy - until I was almost 9 and so pretty grown up. 

Then again, what do ya do if you have your beloved family pet who you wouldn't give up for all the cheesesteaks in Philly - and then you have a child, like my bro did with his cat Zoey. He loves Holly and Zoey is his other special girl. he'll never give her up.  he'll just have to teach Holly - my niece - how to interact with her and how to treat her. And maybe keep them separated when he is not around. because small children can provoke pets and lead to very dangerous things. 

My thoughts are to keep them seperate when you are not there and when the pet and child are there you have to STAY there in order to make sure the child - and dog too -are both learning right methods of appropriate interaction. 

But yeah - because Daddy said so - will be good about the fire issue til he is older.

Some pets just can't be around kids period. My cat Fluffy was just such a cat. He hated strangers and kids so would attack anyone who was a kid or wasnt his own family. So when kids were around we were there to make sure they never got close to each other at all. Sometimes Fluffy ha to be put in the room when kids creating pandemonium were running around our house. 

But never would Ihave given him up. he was my best friend and we were together for 15 years.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 27, 2010)

On the 'Fire issue', I recall that I found out the hard way with regard to open fires.  My mother had warned me, explained to me, pulled me away from the fire, put the guard around it ... but willful and stubborn me would have none of it.  She was distracted in conversation with the person whose house we were in and I ninja'd to the fire, successfully moved the guard (which was bigger than me!) but got my toes caught in the hearth rug and into the coals I went!

Sensei Pain is the best teacher at the end of the day and despite a few tender days with my hands I successfully learned that mother did know what she was talking about when it came to fire :lol:.


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## Blade96 (Apr 27, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> On the 'Fire issue', I recall that I found out the hard way with regard to open fires.  My mother had warned me, explained to me, pulled me away from the fire, put the guard around it ... but willful and stubborn me would have none of it.  She was distracted in conversation with the person whose house we were in and I ninja'd to the fire, successfully moved the guard (which was bigger than me!) but got my toes caught in the hearth rug and into the coals I went!
> 
> Sensei Pain is the best teacher at the end of the day and despite a few tender days with my hands I successfully learned that mother did know what she was talking about when it came to fire :lol:.



See lol, you didnt need CP 

not when you have Mr. Life Experience. =]


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## chaos1551 (Apr 27, 2010)

The only time I use CP is when my 3-year-old kid bites one of her sisters.  I give her a little slap on the mouth.  

Does that teach her when someone hurts another, they will get hurt back?  Does it teach her that adults are bad people because they will hit you?  Does it instill a convoluted form of justice into her?  

My wife and I both agree on this point.  Neither of us hit any of our kids for any other reason.  Our #3 (different kid) was a BAAAAAD biter, and smacking her mouth did nothing (we nicknamed her "demon child").  She finally got the hint and quit biting after my wife bit her back one day (nothing else worked).  Neither of us was willing to wait that one out until she got old enough to understand.  How many times would you get bitten while you wait?  Oh, yeah.. she'd draw blood.  

Biting is a CP-worthy offense with my kids.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 27, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> Wait, what? Want to run that one by me again?


 
Some quotes:



> Blindsage:
> 
> Cannot and will never endorse corporal punishment for children. If a teacher or school administrator ever lays a hand on one of my children they'll be extremely lucky if I don't return the favor.






> Grydth:
> 
> If its violent tradition you all want, fine. I am restoring the practice of caning by gentlemen. Here's how it works: You strike my child with an object and I apply my walking stick to your head and knees.... and continue until I am satisfied I have _your_ respect.
> 
> ..touch my kids and I will cane the living snot out of you.




So the reason that we don't spank (violence) children is because is doesn't work, and sets a bad example to children of how to solve problems by using violence.

But these people would use violence to solve their problem. Or more precisely, to exact revenge against those who would corprally punish, not abuse, their children. 

Aren't they setting the example they wanted to avoid?

Hence, contradictory.


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## grydth (Apr 27, 2010)

When it comes to protecting my children, I'm not looking to be an example. I'll take any and all the condemnation anyone wants to hand out. 

But if anyone hurts my children, most especially with a weapon, I will find them and deal with them. No discussion, no exceptions.

One need not like or respect me. One need not agree with me. But to avoid serious if not terminal retribution, one needs to leave my children in their current healthy and unmolested condition. Period.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 27, 2010)

grydth said:


> When it comes to protecting my children, I'm not looking to be an example. I'll take any and all the condemnation anyone wants to hand out.
> 
> But if anyone hurts my children, most especially with a weapon, I will find them and deal with them. No discussion, no exceptions.
> 
> One need not like or respect me. One need not agree with me. But to avoid serious if not terminal retribution, one needs to leave my children in their current healthy and unmolested condition. Period.


 
See what I mean.....


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## grydth (Apr 28, 2010)

No, I do not see. 

Were I to have *any* advance warning of anything threatening my children, I could and certainly would prevent it by legal means - obtaining a court injunction, exhausting the school hearing processes, mounting a media campaign, using an advocacy group, removing my child from the school, expending my possessions to pay for private or home schooling, etc.

Thankfully such actions by a school are not allowed in this state.

I am referring specifically to such situations where I might find my child sobbing, with stick or paddle marks on her, or I find she was called to an office on a pretext and instead molested or raped. 

To me violence is always *a last resort* - but having said that, an individual imperils or injures my children at their risk.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 28, 2010)

chaos1551 said:


> The only time I use CP is when my 3-year-old kid bites one of her sisters.  I give her a little slap on the mouth.
> 
> Does that teach her when someone hurts another, they will get hurt back?  Does it teach her that adults are bad people because they will hit you?  Does it instill a convoluted form of justice into her?
> 
> ...



That is kinda how I see things as well. CP is a last resort, not a first resort, and not until all other options are exhausted.


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## Sukerkin (Apr 28, 2010)

I had assumed that that was what we had been addressing all along in this thread i.e. that corporal punishment has it's uses but that it is not something to turn to at every call.

I know that some have more extreme views and consider it should never be used and at that juncture my reasoning parts company from that line of thought.  As a final sanction I feel it to be an essential tool.

There are those upon which it will not work, of course ... but {semi-joking} they'll usually be in prison not long after they leave school anyhow as their rejection of social rules and authority runs too deep.


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## Archtkd (Apr 28, 2010)

Omar B said:


> _TEMPLE, TEX. -- In an era when students talk back to teachers, skip  class and wear ever-more-risque clothing to school, one central Texas  city has hit upon a deceptively simple solution: Bring back the paddle.
> __ Most school districts across the country banned paddling of students  long ago. Texas sat that trend out. Nearly a quarter of the estimated  225,000 students who received corporal punishment nationwide in 2006,  the latest figures available, were from the Lone Star State. _
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html?g=0
> 
> ...



It's about time. I'm a  product of the old post-Colonial Kenyan boarding school system, where caning -- with a Ministry of Education approved bamboo cane -- was standard corporal punishment in primary, secondary and high school. For "serious"  stuff like drinking, sneaking out to clubs in the middle of the night, selling moonshine or cigarettes in the house (dorm), you earned 12-of-the-best in the butt plus two weeks suspension. Often , for such crimes, many fathers would encourage the school principle to break the rules and surpass the caning limit of 12 strokes.


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## Satt (Apr 28, 2010)

Look everyone...my wife has been using CP on me for years and you don't hear me complaining. In fact, I rather like it! :whip1:


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 28, 2010)

Satt said:


> Look everyone...my wife has been using CP on me for years and you don't hear me complaining. In fact, I rather like it! :whip1:


 
Open palm or hairbrush? :rofl:


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## blindsage (Apr 28, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> It's about time. I'm a product of the old post-Colonial Kenyan boarding school system, where caning -- with a Ministry of Education approved bamboo cane -- was standard corporal punishment in primary, secondary and high school. For "serious" stuff like drinking, sneaking out to clubs in the middle of the night, selling moonshine or cigarettes in the house (dorm), you earned 12-of-the-best in the butt plus two weeks suspension. Often , for such crimes, many fathers would encourage the school principle to break the rules and surpass the caning limit of 12 strokes.


Hows that working out for Kenya?


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## dancingalone (Apr 28, 2010)

C'mon, Sage.  That's an undeserved shot at Arch.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 28, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I had assumed that that was what we had been addressing all along in this thread i.e. that corporal punishment has it's uses but that it is not something to turn to at every call.



The fact that I acknowledge that CP has its uses (albeit only as a last resort) does not mean that I am prepared to allow just any teacher or administrator to dole it out, or that I think their judgment regarding CP should be trusted.

As I already mentioned, I have heard too many tales from people I trust regarding CP in Catholic schools in the 60s and 70s to have any trust in the capability of institutions to deal responsibly and correctly with CP.


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## Satt (Apr 28, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> Open palm or hairbrush? :rofl:


 
Whatever she can find!!! :flame:


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## blindsage (Apr 28, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> C'mon, Sage. That's an undeserved shot at Arch.


How is it undeserved?  The premise of the entire argument is that children and youth today are out of control in this country and that CP is useful method to address it.  The question is totally valid.  If CP is so useful and it was of such benefit _institutionally _in his being raise in Kenya, then the question stands, how has that method workied, in Kenya, for accomplishing those goals?


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## dancingalone (Apr 28, 2010)

I might have read more into your response than I should have.  I thought you were making a reference to Kenya's internal stability.  We both know surely that the problems of Kenyan governance has seeds into far more factors than corporal punishment.  Things like colonial policy & endemic poverty among other things.


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## Archtkd (Apr 28, 2010)

blindsage said:


> Hows that working out for Kenya?



Kept me and a whole bunch of my buddies from serious trouble. They don't use the can anymore now and I can't say whether that's good or bad.


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## Archtkd (Apr 28, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I might have read more into your response than I should have.  I thought you were making a reference to Kenya's internal stability.  We both know surely that the problems of Kenyan governance has seeds into far more factors than corporal punishment.  Things like colonial policy & endemic poverty among other things.



I thought Sage's question was fair, if he was sticking with the thread. I can't honestly say whether caning was good or bad think for Kenya as a whole, but I do know from personal experience, that it kept me and a whole bunch of my friends from serious trouble. It's no longer done now because a new generation of educators in the country started overdoing it, and therein lies the problem with corporal punishment sometimes. In Kenya, thhere also was social and political pressure to stop corporal punishment practices that many people associated with colonial Brits.  

Of course my childhood circumstance and those of many Kenyans is nothing compared to how kids in Texas are growing up. I went to a mixed boarding primary school when I was 7, an all-boys boarding school from Secondary "O" Levels Form 1-4 and a mixed boarding school for  Secondary "A" Levels From 5-6. Many people on this thread will consider boarding school at 7 -- or even younger as was the case with my siblings -- to be child abuse. I'm glad to report that I and my sibling and most fo friends and relatives turned out OK.


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Apr 28, 2010)

grydth said:


> No, I do not see.
> 
> Were I to have *any* advance warning of anything threatening my children, I could and certainly would prevent it by legal means - obtaining a court injunction, exhausting the school hearing processes, mounting a media campaign, using an advocacy group, removing my child from the school, expending my possessions to pay for private or home schooling, etc.
> 
> ...


 
So violence is a last resort, but you will use it as a first resort if your child is corprally punished.  That is the context of this discussion, not molestation or rape.  But, rather then use non-violent means such as calling the police, speaking with the school administration, addressing the school board, you physically attack the person.

No, your first instinct is not to do something that would actually prevent another incident from occurring.  It is to exact revenge by using violence.  Thereby reinforcing to your child that violence is a perfectly acceptable means to solve your problems, and not as a last or exigent resort. And also getting yourself thrown into jail, and not able to protect your child even further.

Understand, I get where you're coming from, though I disagree because I believe in corporal punishment.  But your reasoning is inconsistent.

I just find the premise behind your disagreement as corporal punishment inconsistent with what you would actually utilize yourself.


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## Blade96 (Apr 28, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> There are those upon which it will not work, of course ... but {semi-joking} they'll usually be in prison not long after they leave school anyhow as their rejection of social rules and authority runs too deep.



*ahem* 

cp didnt work with me and i never turned out a jail bird =]

I recognize though that you're referring only to some people.



Satt said:


> Look everyone...my wife has been using CP on me for years and you don't hear me complaining. In fact, I rather like it! :whip1:



LOL!


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