# Kosho E Lessons



## Danjo (Aug 4, 2006)

Here's a fun one for you all.: http://www.koshoelessons.com/

I guess since Juchnik learned everything from sitting down and talking with Mitose, he's comfortable with this approach. Look at the bottom of the page and you can also learn Gracie JJ, Submission Grappling and Escrima online too.

Here's my favorite line: *"The Most Complete and Effective KoshoShorei Ryu Instructional Available on the Internet! "*

Now we can all be true "Keyboard Warriors" !


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## Danjo (Aug 4, 2006)

Hey Doc,

When can we expect to see Sublevel 4 E Lessons?


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## Carol (Aug 4, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Hey Doc,
> 
> When can we expect to see Sublevel 4 E Lessons?


 
As soon as we have virtual bodies that face virtual threats, maybe he will have a virtual classroom?  :idunno:


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## MJS (Aug 5, 2006)

Thread moved to Horror Stories

MJS
MT Supermod


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## Martial Arts E Center (Aug 5, 2006)

I'd like to respond to danjo's post.....I know this has been done to death, but obviously mr danjo is  having alot of trouble with different learning systems like lectures, books, videos, the internet. Dont colleges have lectures and videos by the professors as part of most courses?  It has been proven that rote learners like mr. Danjo seems to be, have a hard time generalizing out from what they have been shown, making it very hard to understand conceptual ideas and principles, which keeps them stuck in their preconceived patterns. When Mr Juchnik studied from Mr. Mitose, he already knew how to punch, kick, etc.... what Mr. Mitose passed on to him were principles, natural laws, etc... what is better? learning HOW to throw or just learning specific throws? I personally was shown by Mr. Juchnik the lesson Mr. Mitose showed him on folding and throwing. I found it very insightful and regard it as one of the best lessons I have ever had. He was also told to visit certain people to learn things Mr. Mitose couldn't show him there in that setting. I have never seen one person who has withnessed Mr Juchnik's demonstrations doubt his martial abilites....
As for the E Lessons.... why is it so hard to understand how this could be a valuable tool? Everyday we learn from books, tapes, dvds, cds, talking, listening, etc... This is NOT meant to replace a qualified instructor! This is not for rank! This is meant to be a progressive interactive learning TOOL to teach the principles, techniques, history, etc of these arts. Also, not everyone has the geographic opportunities to study from Hanshi Juchnik. By using the internet, you can study from Hanshi no matter where you are located. When I watch Hanshi Juchnik teach a principle, I can only pick up so much of what he is actually trying to impart. By studying these lessons over and over, you are going to see things you couldn't see in a time limited class or seminar setting. What did his hips do and why? his feet? his weight distributions, etc... and... you can asking him questions about these things anytime you want, as much as you want.... We can provide you with all the information you need to learn the technical aspects of Kosho Shorei Ryu, but you still need to physically train with partners.
   As for your favorite part... the most effective Kosho Instructional Available on the Internet... While we are just starting out with Kosho E Lessons, adding new material every day, we stand behind that statement... show us another one that has so much information, is interactive, and is so cost effective, and is taught by Hanshi himself......

I also find it very judgemental of Mr. Danjo to  comment on these e lessons without his having tried them.... 'Contempt prior to investigation?'

We have been doing this for almost two years with Gracie E Lessons with great results... Why not with Kosho Kempo? Escrima?


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## Danjo (Aug 5, 2006)

I suspect that this mysterious poster is none other than Gary Brewer. If not, then by all means come forward and take credit for your post.

I have posted about distance learning before and my experiences with it. i stand by that and the fact that I don't believe that it works.

Juchnik talks a very good game, but ultimately fails to convince with his changing stories about how he learned Kosho Ryu etc. Now he's trying to make money on the internet doing this nonsense. Learn BJJ over the internet? Don't make me laugh. I've trained that stuff live at the Ralph Gracie Academy and know that there is no way you can learn it except to get on the mats and roll with someone better than you at it. Period. Same with Escrima, Sub Grappling and any decent form of Kenpo out there.

If Kosho Ryu can be learned this way, then it's not worth learning. College courses can be taught this way because they are intellectual, not physical. How many distant courses in PE do you see being taught in college?

Please post your true identity or else go somewhere else and post.

Dan Weston


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## 7starmantis (Aug 5, 2006)

*Gentlemen, lets keep this discussion on a mature and respectful level. You can disagree without crossing the line.

7starmantis
MT Asst. Admin*


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## Kacey (Aug 5, 2006)

Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> Dont colleges have lectures and videos by the professors as part of most courses?


A few?  Yes.  Most?  No, not even close - and physical education is not among the common choices.  There are many things I would not be willing to learn on an electronic media, and martials is among those things.  Like mathematics, science lab, or counseling, to give a few examples, some things need to be demonstrated in person, and immediate feedback provided, for the person to truly learn.  I would include any physical skill, especially those in which improper performance could lead to injury, among those topics.  A coworker of mine took an on-line class as part of her associate's degree, and disliked it intensely; she found the recorded lectures difficult to follow, and particularly disliked not being able to interact with the professor directly, as the time necessary to ask questions via email and receive responses was frustrating, and often produced responses that, while informative, did not really answer the question asked.  If that was her experience with a basic English class, I cannot imagine how much worse it would be in a class requiring precise physical movements, which are often hard to ask questions about in writing, rather than through demonstration.



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> It has been proven that rote learners like mr. Danjo seems to be, have a hard time generalizing out from what they have been shown, making it very hard to understand conceptual ideas and principles, which keeps them stuck in their preconceived patterns.


I have been in TKD for 19 years, and I have learned a great deal from reference materials - both text and video - but every time I work out with my instructor, he provides feedback on my technique that I cannot get from individual, media-based materials.  Nor could I learn from the moral components that I have gained from his instruction, and that of other seniors it has been my privilege to be instructed by, from text or electronic media.  I have gained a great deal of supplementary information from media sources, but they cannot, in my opinion, replace the personal attention of a qualified instructor.  I can't speak for Danjo's learning style, as I don't know him personally; for myself, however, I learned considerably more about "conceptual ideas and principles" from my instructor and other seniors than I have learned from supplemental materials, no matter the quality of those materials, because the discussions that occur in person are of much more use to me... and even the information I garner from media supplements spark questions that the supplements cannot answer, and which I take back to my instructor.  That's what works for me.  If your system works for others, then, kudos... but for me, I would find it to be ineffective.



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> When Mr Juchnik studied from Mr. Mitose, he already knew how to punch, kick, etc.... what Mr. Mitose passed on to him were principles, natural laws, etc... what is better? learning HOW to throw or just learning specific throws? I personally was shown by Mr. Juchnik the lesson Mr. Mitose showed him on folding and throwing. I found it very insightful and regard it as one of the best lessons I have ever had. He was also told to visit certain people to learn things Mr. Mitose couldn't show him there in that setting. I have never seen one person who has withnessed Mr Juchnik's demonstrations doubt his martial abilites....


So you, yourself, learned best in person; at least, that's how this reads to me.  Certainly, I have used media supplementals (videos) in the fashion you describe; however, without the feedback provided by another person who has knowledge of the art and the techniques being practiced, I find it very difficult to determine if I am truly understanding the technique being demonstrated, and even more, truly knowing if I am performing it properly.  This has nothing to do with the quality of the person on the video, in my opinion; for myself, simply because I can see something over and over, at varying speeds, does not mean that I can, necessarily, tell if I am performing it properly.



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> As for the E Lessons.... why is it so hard to understand how this could be a valuable tool? Everyday we learn from books, tapes, dvds, cds, talking, listening, etc... This is NOT meant to replace a qualified instructor! This is not for rank! This is meant to be a progressive interactive learning TOOL to teach the principles, techniques, history, etc of these arts. Also, not everyone has the geographic opportunities to study from Hanshi Juchnik. By using the internet, you can study from Hanshi no matter where you are located. When I watch Hanshi Juchnik teach a principle, I can only pick up so much of what he is actually trying to impart. By studying these lessons over and over, you are going to see things you couldn't see in a time limited class or seminar setting. What did his hips do and why? his feet? his weight distributions, etc... and... you can asking him questions about these things anytime you want, as much as you want.... We can provide you with all the information you need to learn the technical aspects of Kosho Shorei Ryu, but you still need to physically train with partners.


   I looked at the referenced website; I looked at every link on the page.  At no point does it say that this is a supplement to a qualified instructor; in fact, I could not find any reference to an individual instructor anywhere on the site.  Perhaps, if reference to using this site as a tool, rather than in place of a qualified instructor, were visible somewhere on the site, this discussion would be somewhat different.  The way the site is set up, however, it looks, to an outsider, as if the information provided on the site is all-inclusive and all a person needs to learn independently of an instructor.  If I missed something stating that this is a supplement to an instructor, then please, post a link to this information, as that would, indeed, change my opinion.



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> As for your favorite part... the most effective Kosho Instructional Available on the Internet... While we are just starting out with Kosho E Lessons, adding new material every day, we stand behind that statement... show us another one that has so much information, is interactive, and is so cost effective, and is taught by Hanshi himself......


I cannot speak to the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this teaching methodology, as I don't have any experience with either the method or the style... but I will say that I don't find $21.95/month particularly "cost-effective", when supplemental media can be purchased for a one-time cost, my instructor is available for questions at all classes, and additionally by phone and email, as are other seniors, as well as many qualified persons on sites such as MT, all for no additional cost.  I teach TKD at a YMCA, where students pay $65/session (7 weeks).  At that rate, members are receiving direct instruction at a monthly cost of just over $30 - except for those who are on scholarship, who pay anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 of the regular cost, and some of them have difficulty paying every session, because the $25-32 they pay is a stretch for their budgets (at which point I waive the dues, generally).  At that rate, I don't find internet-based instruction to be particularly cost-effective; as an additional cost on top of training dues I would find it difficult to justify.  



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> I also find it very judgemental of Mr. Danjo to  comment on these e lessons without his having tried them.... 'Contempt prior to investigation?'


As I said, for myself I would find this method to be singularly ineffective; I cannot imagine taking a martial art as an on-line class, and I cannot think, for myself, that I would find it effective as the primary method of instruction.  

As far as Danjo's "contempt prior to investigation", I see no contempt in his posts; dismay and amusement, perhaps, but not contempt.  I suspect you will find that many people with any experience in MA will hold similar opinions as to the potential effectiveness of your on-line program.  As I said previously, if this is intended as a supplemental program, then, for those for whom it is effective, I have no problem - but if that is the case, then it needs to be made clear on your website, if only to protect your collective behinds when someone hurts themselves doing something incorrectly that they learned on-line.  In today's litigious society, I see this as a definite possibility - that someone will perform a technique incorrectly and hurt either themselves or the partner they practice on - and then sue your organization for damages; waivers and disclaimers are often not much use in such situations, and lawsuits have been brought, and won, for much less.



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> We have been doing this for almost two years with Gracie E Lessons with great results... Why not with Kosho Kempo? Escrima?


I would interested in knowing how you determine "great results".  Is it solely based on the amount of money generated by this teaching method?  At any point, do these students see an instructor for feedback?  Testing?  Is that a requirement, or merely an option?  If an option, is that option recommended?  Mentioned at all?  As I said, I looked through the site, and could not find such information.

In addition, I would like to say that I find it interesting that this is your first post on this site - no introduction, such as most people make, no information about your personal background - just a rather defensive post about a program someone dared not be positive and enthusiastic about.


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## Martial Arts E Center (Aug 5, 2006)

I believe I am being respecful to mr Danjo, but I dont know if he is showing the same respect back... I am not Gary Brewer.. i do not know him or you... again you are being contemptful without investigation... 

I want to get this part through to mr Danjo and hope he understands.... (but then again, he might be learning something long distance) THIS DOES NOT REPLACE HAVING AN INSTRUCTIOR...THIS IS A LEARNING TOOL... YOU STILL NEED TO PRACTICE.....Yes you have to get on the mats and roll... ....yes you have to train, yes, you have to practice ... all of that...I AM IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH YOU SIR....but that doesnt mean you cant improve you knowledge and abilities by using  other sources to supplement and accelerate your learning curve. 

 Now  I do disagree with a couple of points mr Danjo says... calling the e lessons nonsense without even trying it or chatting to someone who has tried it is very ignorant......_you can only learn Bjj by rolling with someone better than you._ As a Gracie jiu Jitsu student, I believe you can improve your game and learn from everyone you roll with... not only the better, but even the worse than yourself...same for escrima, sub grappling, etc
_if kosho can be learned that way then its not worth learning?_ Come on,again dont show your ignorance by saying such an absurd statement. This is a learning tool!!  You cannot sit down at the computer and become a  martial arts master...but you can learn and improve by studing at the computer.. you just have to be able to actually open up and try it...then get up and practice it!

_'intellectual not physical'_  you must be alittle behind the curve if you think martial arts are all physical... Chuck Norris has stated many times he believes a big part of his success was because of visualization. 

 and yes you can learn and even get certified in 'PE" courses over the internet...   

 I think if you actually thought about what I am saying you would see we agree on alot of things. I just think you can take something off of a video or book or dvd or cd or pictures and practice it with a partner and learn...I like to think I can learn from anyone (even someone with worse abilities), and from anything. I find it sad and I am truely sorry you had a bad experience with a previous attempt at a different learning system to the point it has made you completely closed minded on any other form of leaning without even trying it. Even if YOU cant possiblily learn something, does that mean someone else cant?

I dont believe it is necessary to identify myself to be able to post here is it?  Lighten up a little big guy.. I am not attacking you or your value system.


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## Martial Arts E Center (Aug 5, 2006)

Kasey,

good valid points... 

First off, I am new to this forum and its ways, but I have posted on alot of different forums and didnt know I should go to a specific room to introduce myself... my fault...I apologize...

22 bucks a month is very cost effective if you take into account the cost of dvds and the amount of information given...This is meant to be interactive..questions? problems? need help with techniques? understanding principles? ask hanshi and get those answers...

I am sorry if you knew someone who didnt like a certain class or whatever, but that doesnt mean this will be bad too.. is it for everyone? probably not... can everyone learn something from it? probably yes...

Are you able to study from Hanshi Juchnik? Most probably cant, except through something like this..you can take a concept he has shown here, work with it, show your parnters, instructors, and everyone can learn that way..
Do I learn best in person.. yes.. do i get better on my time out of the dojo? yes.. how? by using dvds, videos, books, internet as supplements to add to my knoweldge.....
 I am very open to feedback and I will take your suggestions and over the next few days make some changes on the sites as you suggested.. 

rank..no, we are not giving out rank or testing for it... great results.. from students telling us ... not from the amount of money spent... everyone of our gracie e lesson students are students at academies, with their own instructors, this enables them to recieve insight from one of the most technical instructors around...a man who continually produces champions...Cesar Gracie... now we are making the same type of program available in Kosho... and Escrima... and yes coming soon..even TKD...


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## Kacey (Aug 5, 2006)

To address your last point first... no, you don't have to identify yourself; however, for myself, I find that anonymous posters who do not back up their statements with their name, experiences, and reputation are less credible.  That may not be the case off the 'web... but I, personally, place more weight on people who share their credentials than those who don't.  And for the record, I'm not a guy.    Since you did not address anyone directly, I don't know if you're responding to me or to Danjo.

As far as your online system not replacing an instructor - as I said, I could not find reference to that anywhere on the site, and would appreciate it if you could direct me to the correct page where such a statement is made... as it could be confusing, and possibly misleading, for people who don't know that this is supplemental if such a statement is not made clearly on the webpage.

As far as your disagreements with his opinion, and his with yours - he has a right to disagree, as do you - and you both have the right to give reasons for your disagreement.  Simply because someone disagrees with you does not mean that the person is being rude or confrontational; it simply means that the person disagrees.  You may feel that you have been provoked, and perhaps you were, but I would ask both of you to read your own posts, and ask yourself how you would feel if such language were directed at you instead of by you.


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## Danjo (Aug 5, 2006)

Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> I believe I am being respecful to mr Danjo, but I dont know if he is showing the same respect back... I am not Gary Brewer.. i do not know him or you... again you are being contemptful without investigation...
> 
> I want to get this part through to mr Danjo and hope he understands.... (but then again, he might be learning something long distance) THIS DOES NOT REPLACE HAVING AN INSTRUCTIOR...THIS IS A LEARNING TOOL... YOU STILL NEED TO PRACTICE.....Yes you have to get on the mats and roll... ....yes you have to train, yes, you have to practice ... all of that...I AM IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT WITH YOU SIR....but that doesnt mean you cant improve you knowledge and abilities by using other sources to supplement and accelerate your learning curve.
> 
> ...


 
Firstly, I completely agree with Kacey in everything she said and couldn't have said it better myself.


Secondly, being unwilling to post your name is indicative of someone that doesn't have conviction, or else is afraid of standing up for one's beliefs. Why would you not be willing to stand publicly behind what you are saying here? What would be the reason for anonimity? I'll let the rest of the forum contemplate that one.

As to the rest, I thnk that most here are interested in the martial arts as a physical skill first and foremost. obviously, visualization etc. are part of it, but hardly the whole game. If that is your justification for internet instruction, then so be it.


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## Danjo (Aug 5, 2006)

Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> great results.. from students telling us ... not from the amount of money spent...



Students have no idea how well they're doing without a qualified instructor to tell them. yu can't watch yourself and perform at the same time.



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> everyone of our gracie e lesson students are students at academies, with their own instructors, this enables them to recieve insight from one of the most technical instructors around...a man who continually produces champions...Cesar Gracie


 
So everyone taking lessons in Kosho should also be enrolled in a Kosho School before taking these E Lessons?



			
				Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> ... now we are making the same type of program available in Kosho... and Escrima... and yes coming soon..even TKD...


 
artyon:


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## Martial Arts E Center (Aug 5, 2006)

thank you Danjo and Kasey for the information and feedback..... Yes physical is a big part.... mental is a big part.... we are here to supplement your training... and yes even teach some things you cant get elsewhere... not replace your physcial training... I am out of time, but tomorrow I will go to the introduction room, introduce myself and my background to both of you and the forum... please feel free to help out with feedback anytime....

thanks


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## Martial Arts E Center (Aug 5, 2006)

no, i am sorry mr Danjo, i didnt mean that.... i believe if you want to learn from our e lesson program, whether kosho , escrima, gracie Jiu Jitsu, etc you should be studing somewhere... have a training partner.... etc.... but i do not believe you have to be enrolled in a kosho school to be able to have our e lesson program help you learn kosho.. if you are at a tkd school, you could study the principles and techniques from kosho e lessons and take them to tkd class and practice them... hopefully we can continue our discussion at a  different time as I have to go.... thanks again..


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## Martial Arts E Center (Aug 5, 2006)

you cant watch yourself and perform at the same time.... maybe not... but you can be winning and see yourself tapping more and more people you couldnt tap before... you can see or feel the technqiues flowing from combinations you learned with the elessons... or get the tap with a technique you learned from the elessons...etc....


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## Danjo (Aug 5, 2006)

Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> no, i am sorry mr Danjo, i didnt mean that.... i believe if you want to learn from our e lesson program, whether kosho , escrima, gracie Jiu Jitsu, etc you should be studing somewhere... have a training partner.... etc.... but i do not believe you have to be enrolled in a kosho school to be able to have our e lesson program help you learn kosho.. if you are at a tkd school, you could study the principles and techniques from kosho e lessons and take them to tkd class and practice them... hopefully we can continue our discussion at a different time as I have to go.... thanks again..


 
Sorry, but that _was_ the implication when you commented on Gracie JJ students all being enrolled in an academy with qualified instructors.

How would a TKD student take the Gracie JJ lessons and apply them at his or her TKD school?

How would a Gracie JJ student take the Escrima lessons and apply them at his or her academy?


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## Danjo (Aug 5, 2006)

Martial Arts E Center said:
			
		

> you cant watch yourself and perform at the same time.... maybe not... but you can be winning and see yourself tapping more and more people you couldnt tap before... you can see or feel the technqiues flowing from combinations you learned with the elessons... or get the tap with a technique you learned from the elessons...etc....


 
Well, let's see. If every one of your GJJ students are already enrolled in a BJJ academy with a qualified instructor, then I fail to see how you can attribute their learning and improvement to your program.

As to the "See or feel the techniques flowing from combinations you learned with the elessons"... This is the self deceptive stuff I was talking about. It's nearly impossible to get a gauge on your improvement in a vacuum. you may feel that you are doing it right, but likely you will not be unless you have been closely observed by an instructor and told when you are doing it right and then can replicate that feeling when practicing on your own. you simply can't get that from the internet.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 6, 2006)

I am not sure the E-Lesson is different than any other distance learning medium.

I think it is where distance learning is headed.  These are the first, and because of that, likely some of the worst, but future models will improve upon this.

A couple of years ago, Clyde experimented with interactive E-learning via NetMeeting and a Clyde-Cam.  It didn't go over too well, largely in part to the fact that at that time, many of us were still using dial-up.

You jokingly used Doc.  Doc sets his style up similar to that of a University.  Who is to say that 5 years from now, you won't be able to walk into an accredited SL-4 school, have Doc on the big screen, supplemented by accredited instructors on the mat?

Done correctly, it could be pretty cool.  Done incorrectly, well, we live in a free-market society, so it just won't last.

BTW, the only name I see posted on this thread thus far is Carol Kaur.


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## kelly keltner (Aug 6, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> I suspect that this mysterious poster is none other than Gary Brewer. If not, then by all means come forward and take credit for your post.
> 
> I have posted about distance learning before and my experiences with it. i stand by that and the fact that I don't believe that it works.
> 
> ...


I'm problably going to kick myself for breaking my own rule and getting into this. First of all what changing stories are you talking about danjo?  Second I know the person posting for elessons and it ain't Gary Brewer. You seem to be the one flinging mud and making accusations. Third If someone wants to pay 21 bucks for some exposure to Hanshi Juchnik its pretty cheap compared to the price I'ved paid over the years. If the moderators want to ban someone it should be you.


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## Kacey (Aug 6, 2006)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> BTW, the only name I see posted on this thread thus far is Carol Kaur.



My full name - Karen Cohn - is in my profile.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 6, 2006)

seems to me, danjo......you thought there was nothing wrong with video learning, up until the time you went to study under john bishop.
I've been pretty clear with my opinions towards martial arts video courses that will have a student replicate the techniques on a given video and then send them in for grading. I personally think it's a load.

For someone with an advanced learning degree, you seem to have difficulty in accepting the fact that not all martial arts are taught in an a+b=c technique fashion. 
from what i gather, Bruce Juchnik isn't going to grade anyone......it's merely a supplement to someone's existing training.

You constantly look for excuses to bash kosho.....all without ever taking the time to hit a class......that's about as close minded as it gets.


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## Danjo (Aug 6, 2006)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> BTW, the only name I see posted on this thread thus far is Carol Kaur.


 
When you click on the user profile, my real name comes right on up there.---Dan Weston


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## Danjo (Aug 6, 2006)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> I'm problably going to kick myself for breaking my own rule and getting into this. First of all what changing stories are you talking about danjo?


 
Oh the various versions of how Juchnik trained in prison. First it was that he actually trained. Then, after tons of law enforcement personel came out and said that it wouldn't happen, it became, "Well they talked and he used hand gestures." etc. in order to convey the marterial needed to grant Grandmaster status to Juchnik.



			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Second I know the person posting for elessons and it ain't Gary Brewer. You seem to be the one flinging mud and making accusations.


 
While I am very sorry to falsely accuse anyone of being Gary Brewer, I actually did not. Re-read the post.




			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Third If someone wants to pay 21 bucks for some exposure to Hanshi Juchnik its pretty cheap compared to the price I'ved paid over the years.


 
No doubt. 



			
				kelly keltner said:
			
		

> If the moderators want to ban someone it should be you.


 
I never suggested that someone get banned, merely that they post elsewhere if they are unwilling to identify themselves. People should stand behind their comments.


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## Danjo (Aug 6, 2006)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> seems to me, danjo......you thought there was nothing wrong with video learning, up until the time you went to study under john bishop.


 
Sure I did. I thought it was silly for a long time before training with him. I simply had no other option. Go back and re-read my posts on the subject.



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> I've been pretty clear with my opinions towards martial arts video courses that will have a student replicate the techniques on a given video and then send them in for grading. I personally think it's a load.


 
Then we're in agreement.



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> For someone with an advanced learning degree, you seem to have difficulty in accepting the fact that not all martial arts are taught in an a+b=c technique fashion.


 
Huh? What does that have to do with video training?



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> from what I gather, Bruce Juchnik isn't going to grade anyone......it's merely a supplement to someone's existing training.


 
Well that's good and should be made explicit on the website, no?



			
				BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> You constantly look for excuses to bash kosho.....all without ever taking the time to hit a class......that's about as close minded as it gets.


 
Shawn,

the only things I have trouble with are silly stories of how people trained. Stories like, "I learned everything I needed to know to be a grand master sitting in prison." or "I got my black belt in Kempo from some unknown guy in and unknown style that looked a lot like Samurai sword fighting and I thought he got it from a book, but it was actually a complete system, and he couldn't have got it from a book bcause he couldn't read etc." are to me funny.

The only stuff I've seen Juchnik demonstrate on the Kosho tape I have is escrima which he seems to do quite well.


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 6, 2006)

*Concerning bans:*

KoshoELessons / GracieELessons / Martial Arts E Center are the same person, or at the very least coming from the same PC.
KoshoELessons / GracieELessons were banned for violating our spam and multiple account policies.
Martial Arts E Center signed up within a day of the other 2 accounts being banned. 

Our rules are very clear:
* Members are permitted a maximum of one account per person, regardless of how many organizations you represent. If you choose to ignore this important restriction, all your accounts will be disabled.
* No Advertising except in the advertising forums
* Members must provide full real name and real location in their profiles. 
* Incomplete or obviously false accounts will be disabled at staff discretion.

All 3 accounts have different names, but trace back to the same computer.

This individual can provide a photocopy of a government issued ID, and a photo of them holding it and a copy of a recent newspaper, date on paper and ID clearly visible. We will reconsider upon receipt.

Harsh? Maybe.  But they have already ignored the rules, spammed, and falsified information. MartialTalk does not welcome such behavior.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 6, 2006)

My thoughts on E-learning and martial arts:

I don't see how videos and pictures on the Net are any different then books and DVD's, which are accepted.

Marketing is always geared towards maximizing profits, regardless of the quality of the material, some times it is deceptive and that is not good.  But sadly it is almost an "accepted" fact in our society.

Like Dvd's and books people can put internet learning to good use, or get a greatly inflated view of themselves for reading it, doing things once solo and thinking they are a master.  All depends on how they approach it.

Of course internet publishing is cheaper, and even has less quality control on content then books and DVD's.  And I think the market has been soured by far too many "Become uber-deadly and get a black belt, instructors certificate and license to kill from the comfort of your own home" scams.  But I can definately see the potential.  

Doc got mentioned, so I assume you are of his style, if not fill in some other big name guy.  But suppose some top guy from your branch created a e-learning program.  Put a bunch of videos, training articles, pictures, explanations, the works.  All online and available cheaper then a DVD set.  Not only that, they updated regullarly, answering questions in words, video, or whatever best suited the question, where available to provide feedback on videos you submit to them, etc.  Would you be interested?

I think there is potential in the idea.

Is the stuff on this site good?  I got no idea, probably never will be able to answer that.


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## kelly keltner (Aug 6, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Oh the various versions of how Juchnik trained in prison. First it was that he actually trained. Then, after tons of law enforcement personel came out and said that it wouldn't happen, it became, "Well they talked and he used hand gestures." etc. in order to convey the marterial needed to grant Grandmaster status to Juchnik.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The changing parts of the story are all part of the same story. Sorry been around that particular art for 14 years. I know some of the Law enforcement personell that back the story up. Sorry I wasn't there, I wasn't there, you were not there, and the multiple law enforcement officers you quote were not there. So let's say at this point it's an unprovable assertion one way or another. however the multiple parts of the story are all part of the same story. My understanding is that both techniques were part of the way he learned in prison. The story has been presented that way for as long as I have been associated with that art.  Whether it's true or not who knows, but to say that it has changed recently because of what somebody said on matialtalk is untrue.

kk


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## Danjo (Aug 6, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> My thoughts on E-learning and martial arts:
> 
> I don't see how videos and pictures on the Net are any different then books and DVD's, which are accepted.


 
Accepted as supplements to live training, but not instead of it. They need to say that on their webpage if that's how they mean it.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Marketing is always geared towards maximizing profits, regardless of the quality of the material, some times it is deceptive and that is not good. But sadly it is almost an "accepted" fact in our society.
> 
> Like Dvd's and books people can put internet learning to good use, or get a greatly inflated view of themselves for reading it, doing things once solo and thinking they are a master. All depends on how they approach it.


 
Couldn't agree more.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Of course internet publishing is cheaper, and even has less quality control on content then books and DVD's. And I think the market has been soured by far too many "Become uber-deadly and get a black belt, instructors certificate and license to kill from the comfort of your own home" scams. But I can definately see the potential.


 
Again, see above.




			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Doc got mentioned, so I assume you are of his style, if not fill in some other big name guy. But suppose some top guy from your branch created a e-learning program. Put a bunch of videos, training articles, pictures, explanations, the works. All online and available cheaper then a DVD set. Not only that, they updated regullarly, answering questions in words, video, or whatever best suited the question, where available to provide feedback on videos you submit to them, etc. Would you be interested?


 
Nope, I'm not of his style, but I somehow don't think SL4 would be likely to show up on the internet like this. And if someone in any of the Kajukenbo world tried this, they'd be ridiculed to scorn.



			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I think there is potential in the idea.
> Is the stuff on this site good? I got no idea, probably never will be able to answer that.


 
Well, whatever the material is like, the way it's being advertised is hokey in my opinion. They should come out and say, "We don't give rank, and this is only a supplement to live, supervised training, not a replacement for it."


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 6, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Accepted as supplements to live training, but not instead of it. They need to say that on their webpage if that's how they mean it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
i agree 100% with you on this.
as far as the other comment I made, to which you replied about what it has to do with video training......instead of having a set technique such as 5 swords, you work a principle such as moving to an angle, and you work it in many different scenarios.....so the need to get a technique performed verbatim is not as important as presenting the application of the principle.


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## KenpoDave (Aug 6, 2006)

What do you guys think of Tatum's "Tip of the Week?"

Or "On the Mat?"

They look like E-Lessons to me.  Of course, they are free, and that is a difference.

I'll say it again.  We are headed this way.  What is happening now is the crawling before the walking.

Once there was rec.martial-arts.  Now there's...this.

It's all good.  If it's not, it will be remembered in the same breath with Roman Ancho and Al Farnsworth.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 6, 2006)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> What do you guys think of Tatum's "Tip of the Week?"
> 
> Or "On the Mat?"
> 
> ...


 
Dave, I don't think it's a terrible idea......especially for students of kosho ryu.
I'm sure many students will take advantage of it.
I imagine if Al Tracy did something similar, plenty of students would sign up just to see the grandmasters viewpoint on the material.


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## Monadnock (Aug 7, 2006)

When senior martial artists come out with video supplimentals then that has its benefits. It is the same as DVD and VHS (which just about every style is doing), and can be better than magazine photos.

If all people can gripe about is the missing disclaimer, well, that's a bit of a stretch. Stupid is as stupid does.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2006)

Just as a side note folks:

Lately, there has been an increase of posts, which give off the appearance of spam.  Rather than get into a non-productive, heated debate with people whom you feel may not offer anything productive, telling them to leave, etc., please use the RTM.  Its that little red triangle that can be found on everyones post.  It generates a ticket that is looked at by the moderation team.  From that point, we can take any necessary action.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation regarding this matter.

Mike Slosek
MT Supermod


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## Danjo (Aug 7, 2006)

Monadnock said:
			
		

> When senior martial artists come out with video supplimentals then that has its benefits. It is the same as DVD and VHS (which just about every style is doing), and can be better than magazine photos.
> 
> If all people can gripe about is the missing disclaimer, well, that's a bit of a stretch. Stupid is as stupid does.


 
It wasn't about missing a disclaimer. The site is misleading and we didn't know that they weren't going to issue rank until they came on and said so. They also don't say that it is merely supplemental on the page. re-read the order of this thread and pass me a box of chocolates Forest.


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## J-Man (Aug 7, 2006)

I went to the site in question and it answers all of that on the FAQ page. Maybe it was just added...I don't know.

After reading the posts on this thread, it seems to me that this whole thing started with an attack on Bruce Juchnik...not whether you can achieve a certain belt color or if it is supplemental or not. Personally, I think that stuff is common sense. But I guess it depends on what your priorities are...(I am probably going to regret posting this and getting involved)...


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## Monadnock (Aug 7, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> It wasn't about missing a disclaimer. The site is misleading and we didn't know that they weren't going to issue rank until they came on and said so. They also don't say that it is merely supplemental on the page. re-read the order of this thread and pass me a box of chocolates Forest.


 
I did not find any statements of rank offerings, so I did not find it misleading. Lessons do not equate to rank. I've been in the software industry for about a decade, and online learning has always been supplemental. I would be more concerned with Intentional misleading, vs. ignorance.

"Assumtion is the mother of all F-ups."


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Aug 7, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> *Concerning bans:*
> 
> KoshoELessons / GracieELessons / Martial Arts E Center are the same person, or at the very least coming from the same PC.
> KoshoELessons / GracieELessons were banned for violating our spam and multiple account policies.
> ...


So someone came here under fake ID's and using multiple accounts to push these programs, was caught and banned, then signed up again to continue pushing it?

Says alot about the morals of the person doing the promotion in my opinion.
Also seems to say alot about the quality of the program, if one must hide behind false names and fake information.
They signed up and agreed that they had read the rules and would follow them.  If they signed it and didn't read it, then they are a fool.  If they read it and decided not to follow them, then they are a troll.  I wouldn't waste a dime on any crap trolls and spammers push.

What was the reply when you asked for proof of ID?




As to the video training stuff.  Reference maybe. But as a primary means of instruction in a martial art or self defense system, forget it.


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## Danjo (Aug 7, 2006)

J-Man said:
			
		

> I went to the site in question and it answers all of that on the FAQ page. Maybe it was just added...I don't know.
> 
> After reading the posts on this thread, it seems to me that this whole thing started with an attack on Bruce Juchnik...not whether you can achieve a certain belt color or if it is supplemental or not. Personally, I think that stuff is common sense. But I guess it depends on what your priorities are...(I am probably going to regret posting this and getting involved)...


 
Yep,this whole thing was added since I started this thread:

"*Can I earn a belt just by using Kosho E Lessons?*​*Kosho E Lessons* is not about achieving rank and is certainly not a mail order belt program. The purpose of *Kosho E Lessons* is knowledge...to supplement your training and to provide you with information you would otherwise not have immediate access to. As with any reputable school, rank determination is based on proper technical skills and time. Simply viewing and learning the lessons online is not enough to advance in belt rank. Rank advancement takes a great deal of time, effort, and commitment under a qualified instructor. *
Is Kosho E Lessons all I need to become a good Martial Artist?*​*Kosho ELessons* provides you with a great deal of information that can help you to become a good martial artist. However, it is our recommendation that you always work with a qualified instructor to insure you are applying the techniques safely and correctly. Also, regular practice with responsible partners and a qualified instructor will greatly increase your retention of the techniques and instruction."


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## J-Man (Aug 7, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Yep,this whole thing was added since I started this thread:
> 
> "*Can I earn a belt just by using Kosho E Lessons?*​*Kosho E Lessons* is not about achieving rank and is certainly not a mail order belt program. The purpose of *Kosho E Lessons* is knowledge...to supplement your training and to provide you with information you would otherwise not have immediate access to. As with any reputable school, rank determination is based on proper technical skills and time. Simply viewing and learning the lessons online is not enough to advance in belt rank. Rank advancement takes a great deal of time, effort, and commitment under a qualified instructor. *
> Is Kosho E Lessons all I need to become a good Martial Artist?*​*KoshoELessons* provides you with a great deal of information that can help you to become a good martial artist. However, it is our recommendation that you always work with a qualified instructor to insure you are applying the techniques safely and correctly. Also, regular practice with responsible partners and a qualified instructor will greatly increase your retention of the techniques and instruction."




You're funny, Danjo...So does this mean you are ok with it then? Or can you not get past the Kosho or Bruce Juchnik thing? I noticed you said you trained at Ralph Gracie's a little...Ralph doesn't say anything about attaining rank or training with a qualified instructor on his products page (concerning his instructional dvd's). Personally, I think that is because most people know that already. As I stated earlier, it is common sense. Maybe you could bring those issues up to Ralph and see what he has to say...


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## Bob Hubbard (Aug 7, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> So someone came here under fake ID's and using multiple accounts to push these programs, was caught and banned, then signed up again to continue pushing it?
> 
> ...
> 
> What was the reply when you asked for proof of ID?



Probably the funniest comment I've heard in a while: 
"you must be smoking some good hippy lettuce"

The individual offered money for a sponsorship, which I turned down. They also suggested they would continue to sign up despite being banned.
I wouldn't do business with someone like that, regardless of how much is on the table.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 7, 2006)

Danjo has this big problem with anything Bruce Juchnik or kosho related.....yet he wont take the time to sit in on a class.
So as always, his opinions dont hold a lot of water.


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## Danjo (Aug 7, 2006)

J-Man said:
			
		

> You're funny, Danjo...So does this mean you are ok with it then? Or can you not get past the Kosho or Bruce Juchnik thing? I noticed you said you trained at Ralph Gracie's a little...Ralph doesn't say anything about attaining rank or training with a qualified instructor on his products page (concerning his instructional dvd's). Personally, I think that is because most people know that already. As I stated earlier, it is common sense. Maybe you could bring those issues up to Ralph and see what he has to say...


 
Well, I'm more okay with something that doesn't give out rank over the internet, and I'm glad to see that they put that stuff up there. As to Juchnik...well, I'm sure he's a talented martial artist. His story of Mitose and how he was awarded grandmaster status by sitting and talking and watching gestures etc. are silly in my opinion.

As to Shawn: Who was your original kenpo instructor and what was the style? And how long have you been with Juchnik and do you have your black belt from him yet? I thought you could share that facinating story with the good folks over here so we could then see how much water your stories hold.


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## J-Man (Aug 7, 2006)

Danjo said:
			
		

> Well, I'm more okay with something that doesn't give out rank over the internet, and I'm glad to see that they put that stuff up there. As to Juchnik...well, I'm sure he's a talented martial artist. His story of Mitose and how he was awarded grandmaster status by sitting and talking and watching gestures etc. are silly in my opinion.



I can respect that. Thank you for responding and sharing your views. To each his own I guess...I don't know enough about the whole Juchnik/Mitose thing to comment about that stuff. I'll leave that to the Kosho people.


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## BlackCatBonz (Aug 7, 2006)

Danjo, plenty of folks know my story......and i would say almost all of them have a lot more history in the martial arts than you do, it doesnt sound too surprising to them. 
As far as my shodan in kosho, no, I do not have it yet and there are presently no schools that teach Kosho anywhere near me.
On that note, I have been authorized by Hanshi Juchnik to teach Kosho Ryu.
You can contact Shihan John McCallum of kosho and ask him about my skill......I'll leave it to you to find his number....
If I'm ever in your area and you want a chance to roll with me......I'd be more than happy. 
This is not a personal challenge or a threat.........just a friendly offer.


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## shesulsa (Aug 8, 2006)

_*Moderator Note:

Thread locked pending Admin Review.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Super Moderator*_


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