# Darth Maul Staff style



## Ivan

Hey guys, I've owned a Bo for about a year or so now and have attempted teaching myself some basic Okinawan Kobudo and Shaolin Wushu with it. I always found Shaolin extremely uncomfortable (though I got used to Kobudo, eventually) as my father had taught me the use of a staff with a double overhand grip since I was quite young (~10 years old). Recently I saw that Darth Maul (my favourite sith from star wars) used the same grip and decided to start attempting to incorporate his style.

I started off by learning a few spins when I began practicing again, then I moved on to his combat style. I still have no clue how to incorporate any of the spins I have learnt into it. I also attempted to learn his signature butterfly spin but I am still quite new to it. Here is a compilation of some of my training videos in an attempt to imitate the character:




I was hoping to get some honest feedback and criticism, whether you think this style is applicable in a real situation, and also what martial art uses this grip style? Thanks


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## CB Jones

Where my son trains, the bo is all about power and strength.

Strike like you are trying to break something.


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## Deleted member 39746

should try alternating, i think the double overhand puts too much stress on your thumbs and pending blocking type and the like, somone might be able to force the staff out of your grip down to most of the force being on your thumbs. 

I honestly just treat a staff like a bayonet.


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## CB Jones

Yeah my son uses a grip that is one palm up and one palm down.

His bo form starts at 6:14 mark


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## Tez3

Darth Mail's 'alter ego ' is Ray Park, you can see where his fighting style originated. I've always wanted to hear Darth Maul say 'see you Jimmy' before he hit someone


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## dunc

This may or may not help as it's a perspective from a different tradition from the ones you're looking at

The core principle of using a 6ft staff in the traditional Japanese styles is to utilise the length of the weapon to your advantage. Typically this is to deal with adversaries who are also armed
It's quite different from the approach that you show where you keep your hands in one place on the weapon. Perhaps this would make sense against unarmed opponents

Here's some solo training clips that show the core ideas and foundational movements









And the method for spinning the staff (although the practical application of this requires some explaining) 




Hope this is useful in some way


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

dunc said:


> This may or may not help as it's a perspective from a different tradition from the ones you're looking at
> 
> The core principle of using a 6ft staff in the traditional Japanese styles is to utilise the length of the weapon to your advantage. Typically this is to deal with adversaries who are also armed
> It's quite different from the approach that you show where you keep your hands in one place on the weapon. Perhaps this would make sense against unarmed opponents


This has to be done as a result of him trying to mimick darth maul. You don't want to slide your hands around too much if going past a certain length with the handle results in your hand being sliced off. Some people who try to learn 'lightsaber' techniques, have to put tape where the end of the handle is to learn how far they can move it.


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## dunc

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> This has to be done as a result of him trying to mimick darth maul. You don't want to slide your hands around too much if going past a certain length with the handle results in your hand being sliced off. Some people who try to learn 'lightsaber' techniques, have to put tape where the end of the handle is to learn how far they can move it.



Ahh, yes stupid of me not to realise that based on the thread title.....

Hard to control your centre line if you have a Darth Maul thingy and no distance advantage - better to have a lightsaber I think


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## JowGaWolf

Ivan said:


> Hey guys, I've owned a Bo for about a year or so now and have attempted teaching myself some basic Okinawan Kobudo and Shaolin Wushu with it. I always found Shaolin extremely uncomfortable (though I got used to Kobudo, eventually) as my father had taught me the use of a staff with a double overhand grip since I was quite young (~10 years old). Recently I saw that Darth Maul (my favourite sith from star wars) used the same grip and decided to start attempting to incorporate his style.
> 
> I started off by learning a few spins when I began practicing again, then I moved on to his combat style. I still have no clue how to incorporate any of the spins I have learnt into it. I also attempted to learn his signature butterfly spin but I am still quite new to it. Here is a compilation of some of my training videos in an attempt to imitate the character:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping to get some honest feedback and criticism, whether you think this style is applicable in a real situation, and also what martial art uses this grip style? Thanks


I'm not sure you can really mix Japanese bo methods with Chinese staff methods.  I would probably stick to one or the other.


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## JowGaWolf

dunc said:


> This may or may not help as it's a perspective from a different tradition from the ones you're looking at
> 
> The core principle of using a 6ft staff in the traditional Japanese styles is to utilise the length of the weapon to your advantage. Typically this is to deal with adversaries who are also armed
> It's quite different from the approach that you show where you keep your hands in one place on the weapon. Perhaps this would make sense against unarmed opponents
> 
> Here's some solo training clips that show the core ideas and foundational movements
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the method for spinning the staff (although the practical application of this requires some explaining)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this is useful in some way


Japanese Staff vs Chinese staff =  Looks similar.
Japanese Bo vs Chinese Staff = Looks different
Japanese Bo vs Japanese Staff = Looks different

The mechanics that are behind them are different.  The weapons are different,  The balance of the weapons are different.  6ft staff of any system will have familiar movements even if a person trains staff from a different system.


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## dunc

What do you mean by the difference between a bo (Japanese word for stick) and a staff?


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## Chris Parker

Ivan said:


> Hey guys, I've owned a Bo for about a year or so now and have attempted teaching myself some basic Okinawan Kobudo and Shaolin Wushu with it. I always found Shaolin extremely uncomfortable (though I got used to Kobudo, eventually) as my father had taught me the use of a staff with a double overhand grip since I was quite young (~10 years old). Recently I saw that Darth Maul (my favourite sith from star wars) used the same grip and decided to start attempting to incorporate his style.



To what end?

Look, if the aim is "look cool", or "have fun", then no problem at all. If it's anything at all to do with actual weapon usage, then two things should be covered... number one, get a teacher. Number two, movies are... well, movies. There's a different set of mechanics, tactics, and in cases (such as this) physics involved.



Ivan said:


> I started off by learning a few spins when I began practicing again, then I moved on to his combat style. I still have no clue how to incorporate any of the spins I have learnt into it. I also attempted to learn his signature butterfly spin but I am still quite new to it. Here is a compilation of some of my training videos in an attempt to imitate the character:



You want to learn the weapon handing of Ray Park? Look for a wushu teacher. Or a stage combat group. 



Ivan said:


> I was hoping to get some honest feedback and criticism, whether you think this style is applicable in a real situation, and also what martial art uses this grip style? Thanks



Honest? As mentioned, unless your aim is purely "fun" or "look cool", then this is rather... pointless.
Is it applicable to a real situation? Not in the slightest. Especially with absolutely no foundation.
What martial art uses this grip? Okinawan Kobudo is going to be the primary one... you may note that Maul switches between a matched and unmatched grip (both hands facing in, and both hands facing the same direction), so there's no single grip... and realistically, the reason he uses those grips is due to the weapon he's using, with a burning plasma blade at either end, which is not what you're using.



Rat said:


> should try alternating, i think the double overhand puts too much stress on your thumbs and pending blocking type and the like, somone might be able to force the staff out of your grip down to most of the force being on your thumbs.
> 
> I honestly just treat a staff like a bayonet.



And you're basing that on......?

Look, one of the biggest problems with threads like this is that anyone can answer... and all answers can be seen with the same weight, even though they really, really shouldn't be. From everything I've seen, you (Rat) are yet to embark on any actual study of anything, so your input is based in no actual knowledge or insight whatsoever... at the end of the day, I don't want to stifle anyone's ability to engage in any topic... but it might be better if some employed a degree of introspection as to whether they're in a position to actually offer any advice of value. More and more, I have issue with "we're all entitled to our opinion", as that's often rendered as "we're all entitled to having our opinions, uninformed and largely unintelligent as they may be, to be heard, and taken seriously"... no, you're not.

For evidence? "I honestly just treat a staff like a bayonet." Then you don't understand either weapon.



CB Jones said:


> Yeah my son uses a grip that is one palm up and one palm down.
> 
> His bo form starts at 6:14 mark



That's a fairly standard grip for Okinawan (Ryukyu) Kobudo methodologies.... I like the precision and focus your son has in his performance, although obviously this is not a traditional system he's demonstrating, it is clearly based in such approaches.



dunc said:


> This may or may not help as it's a perspective from a different tradition from the ones you're looking at
> 
> The core principle of using a 6ft staff in the traditional Japanese styles is to utilise the length of the weapon to your advantage. Typically this is to deal with adversaries who are also armed
> It's quite different from the approach that you show where you keep your hands in one place on the weapon. Perhaps this would make sense against unarmed opponents
> 
> Here's some solo training clips that show the core ideas and foundational movements
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And the method for spinning the staff (although the practical application of this requires some explaining)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hope this is useful in some way



Hey Dunc,

It may be important to note that what you're showing there is really only applicable to the Bujinkan approach to bo... it's not even consistent across Japanese methodologies, although it is not atypical either. That said, I appreciate the desire to help, but feel that the actual help is limited.

This is where a teacher comes into it (Ivan)... as a teacher, in very simple terms, teaches you a system. And a system is a consistent approach, not something cobbled together from a variety of sources, based on "what looks cool", or anything else... they have a particular approach to grip, distancing, application (different contexts and opponents), power, posture, preference on usage of the weapon, other weapons in the system, and more. The only time "looks cool", mixing and matching a variety of unconnected methods works is in movie choreography and stage fighting, where there is no need for anything to be genuinely based in any form of reality... outside of that, get a teacher. And be prepared for your ideas of how a weapon works to be contradicted by the school and teacher you end up with.



JowGaWolf said:


> I'm not sure you can really mix Japanese bo methods with Chinese staff methods.  I would probably stick to one or the other.



Yep.



JowGaWolf said:


> Japanese Staff vs Chinese staff =  Looks similar.
> Japanese Bo vs Chinese Staff = Looks different
> Japanese Bo vs Japanese Staff = Looks different
> 
> The mechanics that are behind them are different.  The weapons are different,  The balance of the weapons are different.  6ft staff of any system will have familiar movements even if a person trains staff from a different system.



What?!? Please define your distinction between "staff" and "bo" (which, you know, is Japanese for "staff")....

While waiting for that, a (very!) brief and general look at the three dominant forms of six-foot staff in Asian martial arts.... Chinese, Japanese, and Okinawan.

Broadly speaking, Chinese arts tend to use light, almost whippy lengths of wood, in some cases tapered down to a point at one end, with the weapon often held at the other end almost exclusively. This gives a maximum distance to be applied, with the thinner, lighter end whipped around to strike and thrust. The basis for this is in Chinese spear work, where there is a defined usage for each end of the weapon. Grip-wise, the prevalent approach is a matched grip, with both hands facing towards the end of the staff.

Okinawan (Ryukyu Kobudo) methods are much closer, with the staff most frequently held in the middle third of the weapon. The "standard" grip is also matched, with both hands pointed towards the lead end of the staff, although an unmatched (both hands facing inward towards each other) grip is also used. The middle grip gives the ability to use both ends equally, with an emphasis on thrusting actions, as well as using the middle portion as a blocking section. This is, from a practical level, the basis of the Darth Maul approach, due to the limitations in grip options afforded by the weapon used.

Lastly, Japanese arts tend to flow between the Chinese and Okinawan approaches... as shown in Dunc's videos above (which illustrate the Bujinkan's bojutsu method, based in Kukishin Ryu concepts, albeit somewhat altered... but that's a whole other story), most Japanese usage of bo employ a "divided into thirds" approach to the weapon, holding it in the last third, and employing the far third for striking. This is employed with some form of sliding of the hands from one end of the weapon to the other in some fashion (the above clips being one, Katori Shinto Ryu's method of shigoi-te, pulling the entire staff back to move your grip from one end to the other being another approach). This enables both the free usage of both ends, as well as employing the full range of striking distance available. The exact way it's done varies from school to school, obviously, as mentioned.

So, if the aim (for Ivan) is to move like Darth Maul.... Okinawan methods are the closer match. But if he wants it to be powerful, effective, applicable, or anything similar.... then the first step is always the same. Get a teacher.


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## Deleted member 39746

Chris Parker said:


> And you're basing that on......?



Based on (in the criteria i gave above) your thumbs will take most of the force in some blocks.   I dont know how apt it is for thin staffs or softwood, but i dont deem them combat staffs anyway.    If you want one for hurting you get a good hard wood staff thats a certain thickness.     As far as for not blocking, as far as i can tell in the video, it looks like he has limited movement, both hands either upwards or down seem to limit your movement as opposed to alternating.   and your hands and positions should be dyanmic for what you do with a staff anyway.

Feel free to get two quater staffs and have somone hit you with full strength in all the blocks and see where the pressure goes.   (not too sure about disarmment but if you hurt your hands to a intolerable degree you loose function of your weapon even if it doesnt directly remove it from your grip)




Chris Parker said:


> Look, one of the biggest problems with threads like this is that anyone can answer... and all answers can be seen with the same weight, even though they really, really shouldn't be. From everything I've seen, you (Rat) are yet to embark on any actual study of anything, so your input is based in no actual knowledge or insight whatsoever... at the end of the day, I don't want to stifle anyone's ability to engage in any topic... but it might be better if some employed a degree of introspection as to whether they're in a position to actually offer any advice of value. More and more, I have issue with "we're all entitled to our opinion", as that's often rendered as "we're all entitled to having our opinions, uninformed and largely unintelligent as they may be, to be heard, and taken seriously"... no, you're not.



Dont care, keep conjecture of my personal situations to yourself   and you are entitled to your own opinions and that is as far as i will go into that here.  (as you have literally just expressed your opinion about my personal situation)  I have never endorsed not testing anything.




Chris Parker said:


> For evidence? "I honestly just treat a staff like a bayonet." Then you don't understand either weapon.



No evidence was posted there, the statement of using it like a bayonet was how i personally use staffs for two hands to engange in some form of conversation.    And i am pretty sure i understand a bayonet, you stick it in somone until they stop moving.   Granted a staff without a pointy bit on the end is less effective than one with a pointy bit but its still not plesant and you can injure people thrusing the point of a staff in them.    If anything, my statement means i predominately use it as a thrusting weapon and parry etc as opposed to proper block.    It is really easy to use a spear or a staff like a spear.    And i am honestly not getting a bayonet trainer when a stick works the same. (and is cheaper)

And it goes without saying, i do mean a bayonet ON a rifle, not one not attached, that is just a knife (/sword/spike).


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## Flying Crane

Chris Parker said:


> Broadly speaking, Chinese arts tend to use light, almost whippy lengths of wood, in some cases tapered down to a point at one end, with the weapon often held at the other end almost exclusively. This gives a maximum distance to be applied, with the thinner, lighter end whipped around to strike and thrust. The basis for this is in Chinese spear work, where there is a defined usage for each end of the weapon. Grip-wise, the prevalent approach is a matched grip, with both hands facing towards the end of the staff.
> .


Good post as usual Chris.  Haven’t seen you around in a while, hope you are well.

I wanted to comment on this portion.  You are correct in this, but it is not the only approach found in Chinese methods.  I won’t try to claim that every system includes what I am about to describe, only that in addition to what you describe above, the method that I train includes additional material.

We also take a grip with both palms down, at the end of the staff.  With this grip we use one end at a time, but slide the grip from one end to the other, in effect switching back and forth from one end to the other, and striking freely with either end.  So it is still “single end stick”, but we can engage either end as needed. It is not a grip in the middle that then strikes back and forth with both ends.

A staff used in this way tends to not be tapered like the other method might use.  It’s level of whippiness would, in my opinion, be subject to personal preference.  While I’ve learned both methods using whippy sticks, my own preference is to use a more rigid staff.  A Waxwood staff can be thicker which makes it rather not whippy and less obviously tapered.  I believe that historically, people used what material was available to them.  China is a big area, and I doubt Waxwood would be available everywhere, so people might use other things.  I suspect that the fact that many suppliers are selling staffs and spears in waxwood may be misleading, and is a modern phenomenon.  I believe Waxwood is a fast-growing wood that lends itself to harvest, and has therefore become prominent in the industry, but may not be historically accurate in all cases.

At any rate, being that I live in North America, I have switched in my own practice to using hickory for all of my staff and spear work.  I like the weightyness of it and the more rigid quality of the wood.  It’s a real bone-cruncher if you get hit with it.


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## Chris Parker

Dear lord.....



Rat said:


> Based on (in the criteria i gave above) your thumbs will take most of the force in some blocks.   I dont know how apt it is for thin staffs or softwood, but i dont deem them combat staffs anyway.    If you want one for hurting you get a good hard wood staff thats a certain thickness.     As far as for not blocking, as far as i can tell in the video, it looks like he has limited movement, both hands either upwards or down seem to limit your movement as opposed to alternating.   and your hands and positions should be dyanmic for what you do with a staff anyway.
> 
> Feel free to get two quater staffs and have somone hit you with full strength in all the blocks and see where the pressure goes.   (not too sure about disarmment but if you hurt your hands to a intolerable degree you loose function of your weapon even if it doesnt directly remove it from your grip)



I mean based on anything in regards to actual knowledge, experience, training, or anything that would give your words any weight at all. Your description here simply shows that you don't even have the basic understanding of a safe and strong grip, let alone anything else, and, as such, your opinion is absolutely without merit.



Rat said:


> Dont care, keep conjecture of my personal situations to yourself   and you are entitled to your own opinions and that is as far as i will go into that here.  (as you have literally just expressed your opinion about my personal situation)  I have never endorsed not testing anything.



It's not conjecture, you have no idea what you're talking about, and have no training or experience to back up your incredibly off-base ideas.

But, hey, go ahead and keep arguing with the guy who's trained in a wide array of staff arts for the past 30 years plus, dude... that'll work for you.



Rat said:


> No evidence was posted there, the statement of using it like a bayonet was how i personally use staffs for two hands to engange in some form of conversation.    And i am pretty sure i understand a bayonet, you stick it in somone until they stop moving.   Granted a staff without a pointy bit on the end is less effective than one with a pointy bit but its still not plesant and you can injure people thrusing the point of a staff in them.    If anything, my statement means i predominately use it as a thrusting weapon and parry etc as opposed to proper block.    It is really easy to use a spear or a staff like a spear.    And i am honestly not getting a bayonet trainer when a stick works the same. (and is cheaper)
> 
> And it goes without saying, i do mean a bayonet ON a rifle, not one not attached, that is just a knife (/sword/spike).



You saying "I treat a staff like a bayonet" was the evidence that you have no clue what you're talking about... and no, I don't think you really have any idea of the usage of a bayonet either...

Look, this is all just a lot of bluster from someone completely out of their depth and deeply ignorant of anything being discussed... but, by virtue of having an account here, you can appear as if your words have weight, at least to other people who don't know what they're talking about (not uncommon for those asking the question, in this case, Ivan). And that's the problem... your words are literally without merit, and completely without basis. And it's important that that gets pointed out... before anyone thinks you know something, and tries taking your advice.



Flying Crane said:


> Good post as usual Chris.  Haven’t seen you around in a while, hope you are well.



Hey Mike, I'm always around... I might not post as much these days, but there's a few reasons for that... hope you and yours are safe and well as well!



Flying Crane said:


> I wanted to comment on this portion.  You are correct in this, but it is not the only approach found in Chinese methods.  I won’t try to claim that every system includes what I am about to describe, only that in addition to what you describe above, the method that I train includes additional material.
> 
> We also take a grip with both palms down, at the end of the staff.  With this grip we use one end at a time, but slide the grip from one end to the other, in effect switching back and forth from one end to the other, and striking freely with either end.  So it is still “single end stick”, but we can engage either end as needed. It is not a grip in the middle that then strikes back and forth with both ends.



Ha, yeah, hence my disclaimer of "broadly speaking.... tend to... " etc...

Interestingly, the way you describe that is very much like the way we use a staff in Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu (but not the same as Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu, or Kukishin Ryu, or Kijin Chosui Ryu, or Hontai Yoshin Ryu, or Shindo Muso Ryu.... just to list some of my staff practice for Rat above...).



Flying Crane said:


> A staff used in this way tends to not be tapered like the other method might use.  It’s level of whippiness would, in my opinion, be subject to personal preference.  While I’ve learned both methods using whippy sticks, my own preference is to use a more rigid staff.  A Waxwood staff can be thicker which makes it rather not whippy and less obviously tapered.  I believe that historically, people used what material was available to them.  China is a big area, and I doubt Waxwood would be available everywhere, so people might use other things.  I suspect that the fact that many suppliers are selling staffs and spears in waxwood may be misleading, and is a modern phenomenon.  I believe Waxwood is a fast-growing wood that lends itself to harvest, and has therefore become prominent in the industry, but may not be historically accurate in all cases.



Yep, the weapon needs to be matched to the practice, obviously... one thing I forgot to include last time is the Ryukyu (Okinawan) staffs tend to be tapered at both ends, due to the method of use... and Japanese tend towards hardwoods (ideally Japanese oaks) and consistency in the thickness. Of course, these are generalisations, and a variety of dimensions, lengths, thicknesses, and more are found across the gamut of cultures and combative approaches.



Flying Crane said:


> At any rate, being that I live in North America, I have switched in my own practice to using hickory for all of my staff and spear work.  I like the weightyness of it and the more rigid quality of the wood.  It’s a real bone-cruncher if you get hit with it.



Hickory is increasingly being used by American (and other Western) practitioners of Japanese arts, as it's the closest match to Japanese White Oak in terms of properties (weight, grain, hardness, "crushability" rather than splintering, and so on), as well as the increasing scarcity of quality and properly aged genuine article in Japan... on top of that, the last two years have seen a number of the better workshops close their doors, unable to continue in the modern market (that was pre-Covid, by the way... not that the pandemic has helped matters!).[/QUOTE]


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## drop bear

Rat said:


> No evidence was posted there, the statement of using it like a bayonet was how i personally use staffs for two hands to engange in some form of conversation. And i am pretty sure i understand a bayonet, you stick it in somone until they stop moving



Pretty much.










Within that concept is of course nuance that will make a personwho knows what he is doing better than someone who doesn't. But for all practical purposes hold one end. Poke them with the other.


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## Deleted member 39746

drop bear said:


> Within that concept is of course nuance that will make a personwho knows what he is doing better than someone who doesn't. But for all practical purposes hold one end. Poke them with the other.



there is a reason why the spear was the go to weapon for a very long peroid fo time for fighting.   It works even better if you have one and they dont.


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## Deleted member 39746

@Chris Parker

I was going to give that a fancy reply, but given all three of your points contain logical fallacies i will just list them off.

First reply:   Strawman, Adhominen and appeal to authorty.    Your reply is not related to the points i made, you try to discredit my point based on authorty.

Second:  Ad hominen, and despite conjecture not being a fallacy, you engage in it clear as day.  What you wrote IS conejetre through a through.

Third: Adhominen and appealing to authorty.  And further conjecture.

Given the a bove three, you care not to argue my points and i want no further dealings with it, you know how to reply if you want a argument on my main point without just logical fallacing me to death.   Until that point i am done here and i will not facilitate further discusson on this matter.


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## oftheherd11

@Chris Parker I have been somewhat inactive for a while myself, but seems you have been for longer.  All the more reason to be glad to see you back..

Hope all is well with you.


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## _Simon_

oftheherd11 said:


> @Chris Parker I have been somewhat inactive for a while myself, but seems you have been for longer.  All the more reason to be glad to see you back..
> 
> Hope all is well with you.


Just chiming in, good to see you oftheherd11 . Only just noticed the additional '1' after your name haha, welcome back, hoping you're well


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## oftheherd11

Thanks.  I am OK except for a really bad back problem. I require a cane most of the time so I have to learn how to walk with 3 legs.  

No fancy jumping kicks unless I can beat that.


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## dvcochran

CB Jones said:


> Yeah my son uses a grip that is one palm up and one palm down.
> 
> His bo form starts at 6:14 mark


Very nice open hand and bo forms. What is that form called in your style? 

Don't you love that feeling when people from the other rings are turning around to watch you or your kid perform? 

Priceless memories.


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## CB Jones

dvcochran said:


> Very nice open hand and bo forms. What is that form called in your style?
> 
> Don't you love that feeling when people from the other rings are turning around to watch you or your kid perform?
> 
> Priceless memories.



The kata is Kanku Dai.  It's not part of our style, but he liked it so he and his instructor added that version.

The bo form he came up with himself.


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## Chris Parker

drop bear said:


> Pretty much.



No.

What you've found there is a modern interpretation of Joachim Meyer's 1570 treatise on weapon usage, which is where the quarterstaff material is found... except, in a way, it's not staff fighting at all. Instead, in Meyer's work, quarterstaff is used as the framework to build skills, weapon management, and the strength and constitution to handle longer, heavier weapons... specifically halberds, pikes, other pole-arms, and even the large two-handed "great sword" (zweihandler). So this is really not a particularly good, nor typical, example of staff fighting methodologies.

Next, the idea of "poking" with a staff is, to put it bluntly, stupid. A staff is an impact weapon, one that generates power with momentum and having the weapon travel over a large distance... so swinging around to strike with the end of the weapon is going to be the "go-to"... thrusts can be powerful, but need to be done with a slower action... a "poke" is an annoyance... and anyone who approaches a weapon without understanding the first thing about it's usage is someone who is about to be killed.



drop bear said:


> Within that concept is of course nuance that will make a personwho knows what he is doing better than someone who doesn't. But for all practical purposes hold one end. Poke them with the other.



Nope. That's a spear.

Look, as you say, those who know what they're doing with a weapon will be better armed than the one who doesn't.... so let me say this. You don't know what you're doing with one, and, in this, along with Rat, are completely unarmed.

In addition, the idea of "hold one end" is also far from universal... holding the middle of the weapon is the more common method used in Okinawa, as already mentioned... and, one might note, "hold one end" is not going to be overly practical for a "Darth Maul" approach.... 



Rat said:


> there is a reason why the spear was the go to weapon for a very long peroid fo time for fighting.   It works even better if you have one and they dont.



Well, that's almost accurate... deeply simplified, of course, and missing much in the way of, you know, context, but basically enough that you can make it look like you know what you're talking about. You don't, of course, but a good attempt at picking something you think is obvious enough that it can't be argued with... 

Just in case you want to make it seem like I'm saying things without basis, yes, there are many reasons that the spear was a dominant weapon... but that needs a lot of additional information added to it. In Japan, for example, spears became a dominant battlefield weapon in the Sengoku Jidai for ashigaru, as well as higher ranking samurai, with the idea of spearmanship being a measuring stick (so to speak) of individual skill... but that was, realistically, only in a certain context and only for a relatively short time. For the vast majority of the samurai's existence, the dominant weapon was the bow-and-arrow... with skill as an archer being the sign of a skilled warrior. That was from basically the 11th Century through to the mid-16th... which is when firearms started to reduce the effect that archery had.

Where spear came into it was when we got past the range of projectile weapons... once the distance closed, and it came down to hand-to-hand weapons, spears were the go-to in many cultures mainly due to the range itself... you can kill someone from a safer distance than a short sword or knife, so, yeah, that. But a staff won't kill someone from that range with "poking them"... and, although a staff is used in some systems to build skills that then transfer across to pole-arms (such as spears and halberds), it's still a different weapon.



Rat said:


> @Chris Parker
> 
> I was going to give that a fancy reply, but given all three of your points contain logical fallacies i will just list them off.
> 
> First reply:   Strawman, Adhominen and appeal to authorty.    Your reply is not related to the points i made, you try to discredit my point based on authorty.
> 
> Second:  Ad hominen, and despite conjecture not being a fallacy, you engage in it clear as day.  What you wrote IS conejetre through a through.
> 
> Third: Adhominen and appealing to authorty.  And further conjecture.



Well... either you don't understand the first thing about those logical fallacies, or you really didn't understand what I said, so let's make this clear... 

You have exactly ZERO knowledge or understanding of the weapon, it's usage, it's context, or anything related.

Your comments show that you don't even know the basics of a safe grip on the weapon, let alone anything else.

You have no experience with the weapon at all.

I've trained in such weapons for close to three decades.

Your comments have no value.

Did that help?



Rat said:


> Given the a bove three, you care not to argue my points and i want no further dealings with it, you know how to reply if you want a argument on my main point without just logical fallacing me to death.   Until that point i am done here and i will not facilitate further discusson on this matter.



Let's just pull apart your idea on grip, and the placement (and stress on) the thumbs... as that, by itself, tells me you've never even held a staff in a combative sense before.

You said the following: 


Rat said:


> i think the double overhand puts too much stress on your thumbs and pending blocking type and the like, somone might be able to force the staff out of your grip down to most of the force being on your thumbs.



A proper grip on the weapon has the staff supported by your wrist, with the heel of your hand directly behind the opposite side to where the impact would be coming from... your thumbs aren't in a position where they are even taking any force, let alone getting stress from the impact. If you have your thumb along the back-side of the weapon (where it might be "forced out of your grip"), then you're holding it incorrectly. 

This is the point... you don't have any experience or knowledge to back up the incredibly off-base "advise" you are trying to offer... when you do that, expect to get called on it by people who actually do these things. None of this is a logical fallacy, other than the lack of logic of you thinking you can offer genuine or valid advise... or are in a position to argue.


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## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Look, as you say, those who know what they're doing with a weapon will be better armed than the one who doesn't.... so let me say this. You don't know what you're doing with one, and, in this, along with Rat, are completely unarmed.



Do you have any evidence of your methods working at all anywhere in any sort of live environment?

Because the problem is especially with weapons is that someone will say they have spent 3 decades training to be a master weapons guy. 

And we quite often find it was 3 decades doing this.


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## Chris Parker

Well, that's an incredibly different post to the one you put up originally.... and really, watch the art-bashing, as you're skirting pretty damn close, if not crossing the line (again).

What I will say is that I have little love for the majority of the way the Bujinkan approaches such things... they have an incredibly rich and solid curriculum with a serious basis in genuine skill, then put it aside to make up stuff like that... which, if it's done as a creative expression, is fine... when they think it's realistic is another issue entirely. But, at the end of the day, each to their own.

With regards to your actual question, though, you're applying a metric that is, frankly, lacking in many facets of reality. We don't fight with such weapons in the same context as the methods are designed for, so there's no arena to have any such test... beyond that, the methods themselves are the litmus test... this is not something that you've ever grasped, no matter how often it's been explained to you, but I'm going to try one more time. The study of such weapons and technologies are predicated upon sound principles, applied in a teaching methodology that has been shown to have benefit and value in the way they're done... it's the same as asking if you've seen broken someone's arm with an arm-bar... you don't need any "live environment" to know that a technically sound arm-bar can break an arm. So how about we stop with your insistence on a single metric, especially where it's baseless and meaningless? Oh, and the veiled digs? Yeah... neither appreciated, nor within the rules either... so maybe you grow up a bit there as well?


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## dvcochran

CB Jones said:


> The kata is Kanku Dai.  It's not part of our style, but he liked it so he and his instructor added that version.
> 
> The bo form he came up with himself.


Very similar to the MDK form Kong San Koon. Since there are versions of the form across multiple styles it would be cool to know the history as to where the original form started. It would be very close but I suspect the Shotokan version is older.


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## Steve

Chris Parker said:


> Well, that's an incredibly different post to the one you put up originally.... and really, watch the art-bashing, as you're skirting pretty damn close, if not crossing the line (again).
> 
> What I will say is that I have little love for the majority of the way the Bujinkan approaches such things... they have an incredibly rich and solid curriculum with a serious basis in genuine skill, then put it aside to make up stuff like that... which, if it's done as a creative expression, is fine... when they think it's realistic is another issue entirely. But, at the end of the day, each to their own.
> 
> With regards to your actual question, though, you're applying a metric that is, frankly, lacking in many facets of reality. We don't fight with such weapons in the same context as the methods are designed for, so there's no arena to have any such test... beyond that, the methods themselves are the litmus test... this is not something that you've ever grasped, no matter how often it's been explained to you, but I'm going to try one more time. The study of such weapons and technologies are predicated upon sound principles, applied in a teaching methodology that has been shown to have benefit and value in the way they're done... it's the same as asking if you've seen broken someone's arm with an arm-bar... you don't need any "live environment" to know that a technically sound arm-bar can break an arm. So how about we stop with your insistence on a single metric, especially where it's baseless and meaningless? Oh, and the veiled digs? Yeah... neither appreciated, nor within the rules either... so maybe you grow up a bit there as well?


I'm waiting with baited breath for some evidence.  I can't wait.  So far, all you've got is righteous indignation.  I am sincerely interested in seeing the results of three decades of quality staff training. 

While I'm not optimistic, I would also be very curious to see how well a guy with three decades of staff training fares against someone who is less concerned with unnecessary flourish.

If you could just...  I don't know... share some of that evidence.  Demonstrate in some tangible manner that you're selling snake oil to us.


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## donald1

The forms look decent, I think. I'm not good at judging forms based on watching them on videos. 

A small nitpick from the video, turning their backs to their opponents. Those spin maneuvers they make. Not a fan of that. Doing that is a little too bold for my taste. I'm assuming they might be turning around to face a second opponent? Aside from that, I can't think of any reason to turn your back to the person in front of you. 

Feel free to correct me,  if I'm wrong though.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> Do you have any evidence of your methods working at all anywhere in any sort of live environment?
> 
> Because the problem is especially with weapons is that someone will say they have spent 3 decades training to be a master weapons guy.
> 
> And we quite often find it was 3 decades doing this.


That is horrible. A lot of unrealistic things, some of which look made up on the spot.  Like the one where he pins the sword, then steps on the sword and drops his own weapon while stepping on the sword.  As much as I've trained with the Staff over the summer. A lot of that stuff isn't going to happen as shown in their demo.  Doing that stuff will get you killed.


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## drop bear

Chris Parker said:


> Well, that's an incredibly different post to the one you put up originally.... and really, watch the art-bashing, as you're skirting pretty damn close, if not crossing the line (again).
> 
> What I will say is that I have little love for the majority of the way the Bujinkan approaches such things... they have an incredibly rich and solid curriculum with a serious basis in genuine skill, then put it aside to make up stuff like that... which, if it's done as a creative expression, is fine... when they think it's realistic is another issue entirely. But, at the end of the day, each to their own.
> 
> With regards to your actual question, though, you're applying a metric that is, frankly, lacking in many facets of reality. We don't fight with such weapons in the same context as the methods are designed for, so there's no arena to have any such test... beyond that, the methods themselves are the litmus test... this is not something that you've ever grasped, no matter how often it's been explained to you, but I'm going to try one more time. The study of such weapons and technologies are predicated upon sound principles, applied in a teaching methodology that has been shown to have benefit and value in the way they're done... it's the same as asking if you've seen broken someone's arm with an arm-bar... you don't need any "live environment" to know that a technically sound arm-bar can break an arm. So how about we stop with your insistence on a single metric, especially where it's baseless and meaningless? Oh, and the veiled digs? Yeah... neither appreciated, nor within the rules either... so maybe you grow up a bit there as well?



I have broken someone's arm. 

If you haven't fought a guy with a stick. Honestly you are probably not going to be very good at it. This is regardless how many times you have drilled whatever it is you drill. 

This is consistent with pretty much all forms of physical activity. (Sort of. If say you used a stick for some practical purpose you might be better at using it in a fight)

So with you who hasn't fought with a stick against another person who hasn't fought with a stick you only have a slightly better chance of being successful. 

And that will rely on external factors like timing, strength and aggressiveness rather than pulling off what was practiced in a drill at half pace with a compliant partner. 

And all of this equates to the suggestion that you have some actual practical mastery of a stick outside your own specific context is a pretty big call.


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## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> That is horrible. A lot of unrealistic things, some of which look made up on the spot.  Like the one where he pins the sword, then steps on the sword and drops his own weapon while stepping on the sword.  As much as I've trained with the Staff over the summer. A lot of that stuff isn't going to happen as shown in their demo.  Doing that stuff will get you killed.



It is a drill thing. Everyone does it. I did it last night when I had to drill take downs.(Do every throw you know. And after I did both of them I get kind of stuck.)

You go from your few sensible attacks and defences but realise you still have space to fill up so you start going a bit crazy. It is a drill so basically everything is going to work. 

Eventually you get the feedback that your crazy has some sort of real practical benefit . And that it is some sort of advanced version of basics. Rather than basics just done really well being an advanced form of basics.


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## JowGaWolf

drop bear said:


> It is a drill thing. Everyone does it. I did it last night when I had to drill take downs.(Do every throw you know. And after I did both of them I get kind of stuck.)
> 
> You go from your few sensible attacks and defences but realise you still have space to fill up so you start going a bit crazy. It is a drill so basically everything is going to work.
> 
> Eventually you get the feedback that your crazy has some sort of real practical benefit . And that it is some sort of advanced version of basics. Rather than basics just done really well being an advanced form of basics.


I believe what you say about your training,  still not sure about that staff vs sword video you posted lol.

And it could be that I'm just missing a lot of context because I didn't watch it with the sound  on.


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## drop bear

JowGaWolf said:


> I believe what you say about your training,  still not sure about that staff vs sword video you posted lol.
> 
> And it could be that I'm just missing a lot of context because I didn't watch it with the sound  on.



Oh. Yeah. A junkie with a two by four would clean up those dudes.


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## MartialMasterTeddy

Ivan said:


> Hey guys, I've owned a Bo for about a year or so now and have attempted teaching myself some basic Okinawan Kobudo and Shaolin Wushu with it. I always found Shaolin extremely uncomfortable (though I got used to Kobudo, eventually) as my father had taught me the use of a staff with a double overhand grip since I was quite young (~10 years old). Recently I saw that Darth Maul (my favourite sith from star wars) used the same grip and decided to start attempting to incorporate his style.
> 
> I started off by learning a few spins when I began practicing again, then I moved on to his combat style. I still have no clue how to incorporate any of the spins I have learnt into it. I also attempted to learn his signature butterfly spin but I am still quite new to it. Here is a compilation of some of my training videos in an attempt to imitate the character:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was hoping to get some honest feedback and criticism, whether you think this style is applicable in a real situation, and also what martial art uses this grip style? Thanks



The D Maul scene in Star Wars 1 is MPA Chitwood or 'i appear as non-violence.' Chitwood is an advanced MPA.


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## Deleted member 39746

drop bear said:


> Do you have any evidence of your methods working at all anywhere in any sort of live environment?
> 
> Because the problem is especially with weapons is that someone will say they have spent 3 decades training to be a master weapons guy.
> 
> And we quite often find it was 3 decades doing this.



Kind of funny he looks like he doesnt do strength training, and at that i will be the doesnt have like a 20kg grip strength, yet he is practising grabbing a SHARP sword which would require some obscene grip strength and friction to stop the person from just draw cutting it out of your hand.   (dont quote the science its hyperbole, but you need a pretty good grip strength and that is a practise in itself, i think strongmen have obscenely strong grips due to the sport they do/train for)

I honestly wouldnt endorse grabbing the blade at all due to draw cut concerns and the fact a blade is ahrd to hold onto.


and pretty much that, time doing something doesnt mean anything alone, unless its related to the subject.   Relivent and quality training for 30 years how ever does.  (i can just cite somone doing tai chi for 30 years for spirtual and fitness reasons trying to apply that to boxing against somone doing boxing for that long)


Addendum:  As for the reply i saw to this, the best comprable would be not that a arm bar can break a arm, but looking how the arm bar is applied and how you deploy the technique.  so to stickyfy this, we all know a 6cm diamter piece of oak if swung really hard can hurt somone, thats not in discussion, the deployment of it is.   And the outstanding training methdolodies and focus.


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## drop bear

Rat said:


> Kind of funny he looks like he doesnt do strength training, and at that i will be the doesnt have like a 20kg grip strength, yet he is practising grabbing a SHARP sword which would require some obscene grip strength and friction to stop the person from just draw cutting it out of your hand.   (dont quote the science its hyperbole, but you need a pretty good grip strength and that is a practise in itself, i think strongmen have obscenely strong grips due to the sport they do/train for)
> 
> I honestly wouldnt endorse grabbing the blade at all due to draw cut concerns and the fact a blade is ahrd to hold onto.
> 
> 
> and pretty much that, time doing something doesnt mean anything alone, unless its related to the subject.   Relivent and quality training for 30 years how ever does.  (i can just cite somone doing tai chi for 30 years for spirtual and fitness reasons trying to apply that to boxing against somone doing boxing for that long)
> 
> 
> Addendum:  As for the reply i saw to this, the best comprable would be not that a arm bar can break a arm, but looking how the arm bar is applied and how you deploy the technique.  so to stickyfy this, we all know a 6cm diamter piece of oak if swung really hard can hurt somone, thats not in discussion, the deployment of it is.   And the outstanding training methdolodies and focus.



The broken arm argument is silly. There is a difference between me waving my hands around and claiming your arm is broken and holding you in a submission.


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## dunc

drop bear said:


> Do you have any evidence of your methods working at all anywhere in any sort of live environment?
> 
> Because the problem is especially with weapons is that someone will say they have spent 3 decades training to be a master weapons guy.
> 
> And we quite often find it was 3 decades doing this.



There's a lot that's painful to watch in that clip....


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## Flying Crane

Rat said:


> Kind of funny he looks like he doesnt do strength training, and at that i will be the doesnt have like a 20kg grip strength, yet he is practising grabbing a SHARP sword which would require some obscene grip strength and friction to stop the person from just draw cutting it out of your hand.   (dont quote the science its hyperbole, but you need a pretty good grip strength and that is a practise in itself, i think strongmen have obscenely strong grips due to the sport they do/train for)
> 
> I honestly wouldnt endorse grabbing the blade at all due to draw cut concerns and the fact a blade is ahrd to hold onto.
> 
> 
> and pretty much that, time doing something doesnt mean anything alone, unless its related to the subject.   Relivent and quality training for 30 years how ever does.  (i can just cite somone doing tai chi for 30 years for spirtual and fitness reasons trying to apply that to boxing against somone doing boxing for that long)
> 
> 
> Addendum:  As for the reply i saw to this, the best comprable would be not that a arm bar can break a arm, but looking how the arm bar is applied and how you deploy the technique.  so to stickyfy this, we all know a 6cm diamter piece of oak if swung really hard can hurt somone, thats not in discussion, the deployment of it is.   And the outstanding training methdolodies and focus.


I’ve not seen the video you are referencing, so my comments are not connected to that.  

However, it is my understanding that at least in European sword work, grabbing the blade was a standard technique.  Having a soft leather glove on the hand I expect would help with a firm grip.  Also: the sword was not kept razor sharp.  Doing so creates a very thin edge, which lends itself to damage during use, when the steel clashes with steel. The sword was kept “sharp”, with a thicker edge that better withstands abuse, and was plenty effective with the chopping/cutting techniques.  

Once you get a grip on the blade, you don’t just try to pull it away from the enemy.  That gives him the resistance needed to pull back, and possibly cut you.  Instead, you keep the arm and shoulder somewhat relaxed and you grip the blade and ride along whatever he tries to do, and you control where he is able to thrust the blade.  In this way you keep the threat away from you while you kill him with your weapon. 

In gripping the blade, you don’t squeeze it with pressure on the edges directly into your palm or fingers.  There would be a finesse to it in how you strive to places it in your grip.


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## dunc

There is definitely a technique to gripping a blade
It works well if you know how to do it and does require a certain amount of grip strength and non-sweaty hands


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## Ivan

dunc said:


> There is definitely a technique to gripping a blade
> It works well if you know how to do it and does require a certain amount of grip strength and non-sweaty hands


Gripping the blade was indeed common practice. It allowed you to strike with the pommel and hand guards, utilising them as a blunt weapon. This was better used for armoured enemies as blunted weapons were more effective than attempting to cut through their steel armour. 

You would also use the lower end of the cutting edge to strike down on an enemy’s shoulder, using the added momentum from the weight being at the opposite end of the sword you were holding from the blade, to cleave through their flesh. This was called a reverse grip I believe?


----------



## drop bear

dunc said:


> There's a lot that's painful to watch in that clip....



The thing is I have suffered the same embarrassment. I did sort of stick fighting (I did hocks system)there for a while and thought I would go at it against a mate who knew nothing with some nerf bats.

And go at it we did.

And at speed almost nothing worked. It was literally an even fight. And we both got beat up.


----------



## dunc

drop bear said:


> The thing is I have suffered the same embarrassment. I did sort of stick fighting (I did hocks system)there for a while and thought I would go at it against a mate who knew nothing with some nerf bats.
> 
> And go at it we did.
> 
> And at speed almost nothing worked. It was literally an even fight. And we both got beat up.



That's pretty much everyone's experience when they spar for the first time ;-)


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## Deleted member 39746

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve not seen the video you are referencing, so my comments are not connected to that.
> 
> However, it is my understanding that at least in European sword work, grabbing the blade was a standard technique.  Having a soft leather glove on the hand I expect would help with a firm grip.  Also: the sword was not kept razor sharp.  Doing so creates a very thin edge, which lends itself to damage during use, when the steel clashes with steel. The sword was kept “sharp”, with a thicker edge that better withstands abuse, and was plenty effective with the chopping/cutting techniques.
> 
> Once you get a grip on the blade, you don’t just try to pull it away from the enemy.  That gives him the resistance needed to pull back, and possibly cut you.  Instead, you keep the arm and shoulder somewhat relaxed and you grip the blade and ride along whatever he tries to do, and you control where he is able to thrust the blade.  In this way you keep the threat away from you while you kill him with your weapon.
> 
> In gripping the blade, you don’t squeeze it with pressure on the edges directly into your palm or fingers.  There would be a finesse to it in how you strive to places it in your grip.



Its all a friction game, so being gloved or not plays a big part in it, if you arent it goes down to  grip strength to create enough fricition so the blade cant be pulled out.      But then if we are disucssing longsword, thats longsword, half swording and gripping the blade is common for longsword.   I am not entiely sure how it relates to Katana or asian blades.    Plus there is also the myth for longswords (european blades in general, largely longsword) out there that they are purposely kept blunt for some reason.   I am of the view they kept their weapons as sharp as could be reasonable done and maitainted in the field, so if they dont get time to maintain their weapon in a week and they have fought the entire week it would be blunter than on the onset.    to re enthisise i do mean PURPOSELY blunt, not like during this peroid this sword was more blunt on average than this sword.  Purposely kept blunt as in they didnt sharpen it when able.   Obviously a longsord has more mass so doesnt need to be as sharp as other things to cut.

Its still pretty dodgy and there is a knack to it as has been established, if you are working off the back of you using the blade like that then you allready have some degree of experience in holding the blade and under force. 

I recall anecdote somone shared with me about a IJA soldier that ended up doing the (i forget the name and whats its based off) half sword katana thrust and found out after the hand that they had put on the blade was cut the bone. 

Never the less to all that, you need a actual blade to practise on not a wooden one for sure.


----------



## Flying Crane

Ivan said:


> Gripping the blade was indeed common practice. It allowed you to strike with the pommel and hand guards, utilising them as a blunt weapon. This was better used for armoured enemies as blunted weapons were more effective than attempting to cut through their steel armour.
> 
> You would also use the lower end of the cutting edge to strike down on an enemy’s shoulder, using the added momentum from the weight being at the opposite end of the sword you were holding from the blade, to cleave through their flesh. This was called a reverse grip I believe?


Yes, gripping your own sword by the blade and using it to bludgeon with the hilt was also a common techniques. I was interring the discussion to be about gilling the enemies blade as he attacks.


----------



## dvcochran

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, gripping your own sword by the blade and using it to bludgeon with the hilt was also a common techniques. I was interring the discussion to be about gilling the enemies blade as he attacks.


I will bite. How does this not cut the cxxp out of your hands?


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## drop bear

dvcochran said:


> I will bite. How does this not cut the cxxp out of your hands?



Metal glove?


----------



## Deleted member 39746

dvcochran said:


> I will bite. How does this not cut the cxxp out of your hands?



A great deal of knack you have aquired.    I think it does in practiality cut the persons hands quite often, wait actually if i recall in some cases longswords may be kept blunter where you half sword them etc to facilitate you doing that safer.  


On that note i dont think people have really looked into how often does the person cut their own hands, this sort of thing is generally seen a nessesity so if you get hurt doing it its that or dying.   I wonder if there is a statstic somone has made on the matter.      Modern longsword doers might be spoilt in the fact they use mainly blunt swords while half swording.


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## MartialMasterTeddy

The grip on a Blade, not Tanto, is half the marksmanship.


----------

