# Shouldn't there be mutual respect between Christian and atheist martial artists?



## Swordlady (Apr 20, 2006)

Okay...this has been bugging me for a little while. As far as I know, me and this other woman, Karen, are the only Christians at our dojo. Most everyone else are either not "religious" or atheists.

I'm devout in my faith (though I'm not going to church at the moment), but I do NOT push my beliefs on others. I do not "bible-thump" or tell anyone they are "going to hell". I have shared my convictions about certain things; i.e., not using overly vulgar language, not getting drunk, sleeping around, etc - but by no means do I expect others have those same morals.

What bothers me is that although I don't try forcing my faith on others, some of the resident atheists openly mock God and the Christian faith in general. And since these people in question are my _sempai_, I feel like they don't listen to me if I tell them I'm offended. I have also noticed that when Karen isn't around (she's the third most senior student in the dojo), the guys get even cruder.

I feel like I'm caught in a double bind, not only as one of the only Christians in the dojo, but also because I'm also one of the lower-ranking students.

Don't get me wrong; the guys haven't been overly horrible and actually treat me quite decently overall. But their attitude towards my faith and blatant disrespect of my beliefs does irk me quite a bit.

I have talked to Karen quite recently about the respect issue, but haven't said anything about the faith issue yet. I kinda feel like I should be able to tolerate certain things at the dojo, since I'm a minority in several ways, but how much should I put up with? And when does it become too much?


----------



## MartialIntent (Apr 20, 2006)

I think mutual respect should be second nature to martial artists but as you have illustrated, that's sadly not the case. I have great respect for you not wishing to foist your ideas or coerce your fellow practitioners into your way of thinking - and naturally that should be reciprocated. I can only suggest that perhaps you haven't stated the problem to the offenders in the clear and simple manner you have here - ie. you don't deride their beliefs so will they cease doing so with yours. I wouldn't let rank become an issue here - what's at stake is your personal integrity. I hope you don't let anyone or any situation compromise that for you.

Respects!


----------



## Jade Tigress (Apr 20, 2006)

I'm sorry for the situation you're in. Other world religions seem to get treated with tolerance at the very least. Christianity however, is often met with mockery and distain by those opposed to it's tenets. How much you decide you can tolerate is up to you. Some enviroments will be more hostile to it than others. I'm sure if you pray for wisdom in this situation God will grant it to you. Peace. :asian:


----------



## TigerWoman (Apr 20, 2006)

Well, it wouldn't be a problem at our school as there are few, if any, of other faiths. I  do think we have a problem similar but of an opposite nature...those that are Jewish, Muslim etc. do not get to black belt in our school.  I too, do not believe in forcing my beliefs down another's throat.  It is far better to BE a good Christian than to espouse that one is, simply because of talking alot about it.  And, I have met no role model Christians so, I just hate it when someone preaches to me. (As our master instructor/owner does to our class) In the same regard, I have met no perfect humans either so athiests, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Wiccan or whoever, have no right to disrespect another's viewpoint.  It is especially true in the martial arts where respect is a key tenet. 

I would talk with the owner/head instructor about this just as you have stated it.  If he ignores the problem, maybe the school isn't the one for you.  It would be better if he stated in general terms to the whole body, that no disrespect even casual mention in the school will be tolerated.  TW


----------



## Swordlady (Apr 20, 2006)

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Well, it wouldn't be a problem at our school as there are few, if any, of other faiths. I  do think we have a problem similar but of an opposite nature...those that are Jewish, Muslim etc. do not get to black belt in our school.


I'm guessing the owner practices the Christian faith?  Have the other students ever approached him for his apparent discriminatory practices?



> I too, do not believe in forcing my beliefs down another's throat.  It is far better to BE a good Christian than to espouse that one is, simply because of talking alot about it.  And, I have met no role model Christians so, I just hate it when someone preaches to me. (As our master instructor/owner does to our class)


I agree.  My old church was very much into shoving beliefs down people's throats, and condemning Christians in other churches as "hellbound".  Being a "good Christian" isn't just about spouting bible verses and acting like a good person.  You can be a "model citizen" behavior wise - but still be an arrogant self-righteous jerk.  I honestly think that ultra-conservative Christians who are quick to slam others with scriptures and cram morality down their throats actually make God look bad.  And unfortunately, those fundamentalists give others more reasons to despise Christianity.



> In the same regard, I have met no perfect humans either so athiests, agnostics, Jews, Muslims, Wiccan or whoever, have no right to disrespect another's viewpoint.  It is especially true in the martial arts where respect is a key tenet.


I think a little mutual respect among all of us - regardless of faith - would help make the world a better place.



> I would talk with the owner/head instructor about this just as you have stated it.  If he ignores the problem, maybe the school isn't the one for you.  It would be better if he stated in general terms to the whole body, that no disrespect even casual mention in the school will be tolerated.  TW


The tricky thing is that my sensei also helped perpetuate the problem a bit himself.  He described himself as a "bad Buddist", and although he doesn't engage in the wholesale God-bashing, he hasn't done anything when it has happened in his presence.  Then again, I haven't tried talking to him directly about this issue yet, so maybe something will change if I tried addressing him about it.  The other problem is that it is _very_ hard to find a genuine teacher of Japanese _koryu_ outside of Japan, and I actually like my sensei a lot as a person.  He's a nice and reasonable guy; I'm sure we can work something out.


----------



## Monadnock (Apr 20, 2006)

Does this happen in class? Or in the before/after class times? Class time should be for training, especially if you are koryu. I didn't think that sort of thing was tolerated. Standing around chatting in class at the local McDojo is another thing.

Either way, it shouldn't be happening at the dojo, especially if the teacher cares about reputation.

I do have to agree - In my experience, it's generally the athiests who are more loudmouthed than the religious, and not only to express thier lack of faith, but to go to the point of "slamming" the religious folks. Heck - just read around the Study for a while...


----------



## Kacey (Apr 20, 2006)

I would echo those who suggest you speak to your sensei.  It may be that this behavior has grown up over time from little comments that did not offend anyone to slightly offensive up to the current level - the same way that profanity has slowly became more prevalent in society in general.  If that's the case, that it happened slowly, no one may really be aware that it's hit such an offensive level.  If that's the case, it may be a relatively easy fix.  Also, because, as you say, you are not the type to push your faith onto others, they may not be fully aware of it (if at all), and may honestly be unaware of just how offensive such statements are to you.  Either way, you need to say something - because if you don't, it won't, it can't, get better.  My best advice would be to approach your sensei privately and discuss your concerns in general terms, without naming names or placing blame, and see what happens.

Good luck to you!


----------



## SFC JeffJ (Apr 20, 2006)

Heck, as an atheist, I wouldn't put up with that kind of talk in the dojo.  Christianity deserves the same respect as other belief systems.  Definitly talk to the head of the school about it.

Jeff


----------



## Carol (Apr 20, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> The tricky thing is that my sensei also helped perpetuate the problem a bit himself. He described himself as a "bad Buddist", and although he doesn't engage in the wholesale God-bashing, he hasn't done anything when it has happened in his presence. Then again, I haven't tried talking to him directly about this issue yet, so maybe something will change if I tried addressing him about it. The other problem is that it is _very_ hard to find a genuine teacher of Japanese _koryu_ outside of Japan, and I actually like my sensei a lot as a person. He's a nice and reasonable guy; I'm sure we can work something out.


 
You can also look at it from a different perspective.   Whether the Sensei is a bad Buddhist or a good father or an avid golfer is irrelevant to your training.  The class needs to stay focused, and to stay disciplined.  They aren't.  So, they are drifting over in to all these things that have nothing to do with the art being taught.

Just my thoughts though...I hope things work out well!

Carol


----------



## Swordlady (Apr 20, 2006)

Monadnock said:
			
		

> Does this happen in class? Or in the before/after class times? Class time should be for training, especially if you are koryu. I didn't think that sort of thing was tolerated. Standing around chatting in class at the local McDojo is another thing.



Our dojo is pretty relaxed and informal.  Yes, there is a lot of chatter during class, especially amongst the _shodan._  I sometimes take a break and chat a little, but I rather spend class time practicing.

We have dinner together after class once a month.  That is when the majority of the offensive conversation takes place.  Some things I can laugh off.  But making a mockery of my faith isn't one of those things I can blow off.  I've made mention of my faith at different points, but some of the guys haven't quite gotten the hint yet.

One thing I do have to consider is that I've only been training with these guys for 1.5 years, not including my brief 6 month stint ten years ago.  Karen has been there for about 8 years, and is in her early 40's, which is why the guys don't try to cross her that much.  I also know that even my sensei has been trying to get me to "loosen up" a bit more; he probably remembers how "uptight" I was ten years ago.



> I do have to agree - In my experience, it's generally the athiests who are more loudmouthed than the religious, and not only to express thier lack of faith, but to go to the point of "slamming" the religious folks. Heck - just read around the Study for a while...



Agreed.  I think that society on the whole has been condoning religion-bashing even more nowadays.


----------



## kamishinkan (Apr 20, 2006)

As a "Christian" martial arts instructor, I would not allow a student to speak against anothers beliefs in class at all. I am also a Chrisitian minister so over the years of teaching a student, I will tell them about God and the work of His Son for salvation. I do not "respect" all religions (this will probably get a good reaction) but I do believe in COURTESY to all people no matter what religion they practice. I have students that do not believe as I do and that is ok. Again, courtesy to others is mandatory in a dojo. 
 I agree with the others, talk to the Sensei. I am sure if he is a teacher of a true Koryu, he will demand courtesy among his students.


----------



## Phoenix44 (Apr 20, 2006)

Frankly, I fail to understand why one's personal religion, Christian or otherwise, is even an issue in the dojo.  It's nobody's business.  Talk to Sensei.


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 20, 2006)

Religious talks (politics too) have no business in the dojo. Training and discussion of such training is what should go on. Respect among all in the dojo definitely should be emphasized! If this is absent, go elsewhere.


----------



## Flatlander (Apr 20, 2006)

Mod Note:

Thread moved to Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-


----------



## Flatlander (Apr 20, 2006)

Interesting issue.  I echo other sentiments here, insofar as, with the diversity of backgrounds that we find in our communities, religeous and political issues do not belong in the dojo.  But I don't think this is a religeous issue.  I think that it's a respect issue.

A respectful person wouldn't knowingly insult your beliefs (spiritual, political, or what have you) in any setting.  I wise person wouldn't unknowingly insult your beliefs, either, BTW.  It is, quite simply, bad manners.

Should Martial Artists be held to a higher standard of respectfulness?  I don't think so, not because they're martial artists.  But should a friend, or someone else with whom you have a close relationship or bond (training partner)?  Yes, of course.  Because it should hurt them to know they've hurt you.

Now, I'm not sure if you started this thread for advice, or discussion, so I'll lay off the advice for now.  I'm pretty sure you know what you need to do in order to resolve this issue.  I hope that you're able to find peace in your dojo. :asian:


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

Their conduct is unacceptable, IMO. I will openly disagree with my Christian friends, but I will not mock either them or their faith and if I ever slip and do so, my apologies will be sincere and quick in coming.

Actually, on the net, at least, I have found more non-Christians looking for a religious conflict with Christians than I have Christians trying to push their faith upon others. This is particularly disturbing to me when it takes place among martial artists.


----------



## bushidomartialarts (Apr 21, 2006)

hear, hear.

i've seen too many interesting threads here spoiled because either a christan or an atheist gets all swole up on account of somebody else's belief.

and yeah, the atheists do seem a little more tetchy than the christians on this site.  i understand the whys there -- we live in a christian society, so like any other minority they're resentful.  but still.  

informed debate is awesome.  sniping and arguing is boring.

(and before anybody gets all swole up, i'm no christian myownself)


----------



## Hand Sword (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Their conduct is unacceptable, IMO. I will openly disagree with my Christian friends, but I will not mock either them or their faith and if I ever slip and do so, my apologies will be sincere and quick in coming.
> 
> Actually, on the net, at least, I have found more non-Christians looking for a religious conflict with Christians than I have Christians trying to push their faith upon others. This is particularly disturbing to me when it takes place among martial artists.


 
It seems like a continuance of what is going on as a whole, especially during the Holiday season.


----------



## Laeticia (Apr 21, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> Religious talks (politics too) have no business in the dojo. Training and discussion of such training is what should go on. Respect among all in the dojo definitely should be emphasized! If this is absent, go elsewhere.


 
I agree with this wholeheartedly, but I think Swordlady mentioned that most of the "bashing" was done at the after-training dinners. Not that it should be tolerated even there, but it's a more difficult situation being more informal and outside of the training. 

I second the idea of talking directly to your teacher. You said you have mentioned your faith but the guys haven't got the hint yet. My very limited experience is that guys as a rule don't take hints. They need clear sentences. (I'm sure there must be sensitive and intuitive mind-reading guys out there, but those I've encountered thus far, both friends and others, have needed very straightforward and clear instructions... sorry for the sweeping generalization)

So talk to your sensei and ganbatte!

Cheers,
Laeticia


----------



## TigerWoman (Apr 21, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> I'm guessing the owner practices the Christian faith?  Have the other students ever approached him for his apparent discriminatory practices?



Yes, he was a Muslim that converted to be a Christian.  Actually, I was the only one that has said anything--that's what he said to me--so it must be "my problem".  I tell him when the fringe people of different faiths come to me, but he thinks the whole world should convert...his way. Sigh!

I hope that your talk with your instructor makes him more aware. If he is an open-minded person then he should consider others' beliefs and make his class aware also. TW


----------



## Henderson (Apr 21, 2006)

I think the simplest response to this is that there should be respect between *PEOPLE*, regardless of faith or whatever differences exist.


----------



## theletch1 (Apr 22, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I think the simplest response to this is that there should be respect between *PEOPLE*, regardless of faith or whatever differences exist.


Completely agree.  Part of what the martial arts is all about is improving ones self, at least in the traditional arts.  SwordLady studies one of the traditional sword arts.  Not exactly what one would consider to be done for practical self defense purposes.  So, why study at all?  For a sense of self and to become a better, more well rounded person.  Seems to me that the folks that are doing any bashing, whether against christianity or any other faith or non-faith are missing the point of the art all together.


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Apr 28, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> Don't get me wrong; the guys haven't been overly horrible and actually treat me quite decently overall. But their attitude towards my faith and blatant disrespect of my beliefs does irk me quite a bit.
> 
> I have talked to Karen quite recently about the respect issue, but haven't said anything about the faith issue yet. I kinda feel like I should be able to tolerate certain things at the dojo, since I'm a minority in several ways, but how much should I put up with? And when does it become too much?




It sounds like it _has_ become too much.  

I'd suggest after class you talk frankly with the others about your feelings. 

Where I am the reverse is the case.  Religion gets a "free pass."  One doesn't talk unfavorably in public about Christianity.  Its considered (dare I use the term?) politically incorrect.  There is an open season on atheism, however.  One can take as many shots at it as one wants without fear of censure.  

A recent poll on attitudes towards atheism found that atheists were the most distrusted segment of American society. 

http://www.ur.umn.edu/FMPro?-db=rel...ewsreleases/releasesdetail.html&ID=2816&-Find

This attitude parrots a statement made publicly by George H.W. Bush, former President of the United States when he said, "...I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."

This sentiment...and the recognition that they're a very small minority...tends to force atheists into the closet.   

So...the sword cuts both ways.  Better, I think, to sheathe the sword altogether and leave religion off the training mat and save it for the coffee shop after class.


Regards,


Steve


----------



## green meanie (Apr 29, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I think the simplest response to this is that there should be respect between *PEOPLE*, regardless of faith or whatever differences exist.


 
Agreed!!!


----------



## White Fox (May 2, 2006)

Very interesting topic.

I feel that you should in a very no-offensive but direct way tell them they have their beliefs and you have yours and ask them not to deride your faith. MA's is about respect and becoming a better person not just some mindless thug who can kick some guys *** at the bar!!!


----------



## DuneViking (May 3, 2006)

Greetings,

It is a shame that you have experienced this. This attitude is the complete opposite from what we teach as far as the principle of courtesy is concerned. There should always be respect for others, no matter your rank-period


----------

