# Teaching Kids WC/WT forbidden



## Si-Je (Sep 22, 2007)

After the closure of the school, we thought we'd try working for a "non-profit"  outfit for kids teaching Karate/TKD.  The guy said we could teach Wing Chun as long as we adapted it to his curriculum and format.
We did this.  Simplfing Wing Chun so kids could pick it up much easier, the kids and parents loved it.  We were to do a 6 week kind of internship and then we'd be left to teaching two locations on our own.
When the new semester started I had to get the higher belts up to speed with their new charts and the class ended up being 100% WC.  He was furious.
He told us that he'd been talking to other Sifu's online and around the area and that they firmly stated that children lack the cordination and basicly I.Q. to learn WC, but gave them credit for having the negative motivations of adults in that they could hurt eachother with the training.
We've heard this bunk before, and for the past two years have had no problem teaching kids WC as well as honor in respect to when to use it, and the responsibility of knowing it.
He was also afraid that our kids would "win" in his closed tournament too much and hurt his other instructors kids "self-esteme" too much and that the other kids would want to learn WC.  ????!!!!???!
Dude's taking 90% of what we bring in at a location and is griping that more students would come to our location.
Then he took the school from us in the "rich" area and forbade us from teaching WC.  But, it was okay for us to teach it to the gehetto kids at the location where NONE of his instructors want to teach.  I grew up in that neighborhood.  And the kids there really REALLY need WC.  But the entire deal really has me ticked off.

If other Sifu's don't want the responsbility of teaching kids, each to their own.  If other Sifu's can't figure out how to teach kids, or don't want to deal with it fine.  But that's their opinion and they should refrain from stepping on other WC teacher's toes about it.
Frankly, my OPINION on teaching in general is this.  If you can't break WC down enough to explain it to a child you don't really need to be teaching.  WC is SIMPLICITY, and too many people over analyze the art to death.  Thus, making it less effective, overly complicated, and unspontaneous.
Maybe this is more of this Kung Fu/Wing Chun politicing, maybe the guy is just a chicken and is hiding his opinion behind others.  But, we've heard this view point from other Sifu's in our area before.

As I've said before, I have very different viewpoints of WC than others, and am not impressed with the politicing either, nor do I care.  

My husband and I have created a really great children's curriculum and are going to persue teaching it on our own.  If other Sifu's have a problem with it, tough.  We are unfederated and do not answer to any teacher, as is more and more my preference.


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## Si-Je (Sep 22, 2007)

(Had to repost, wouldn't let me edit)

After the closure of the school, we thought we'd try working for a "non-profit"  outfit for kids teaching Karate/TKD.  The guy said we could teach Wing Chun as long as we adapted it to his curriculum and format.
We did this.  Simplfying the way we taught Wing Chun so kids could pick it up much easier, the kids and parents loved it.  All set to a 40 minute class once a week.  We were to do a 6 week kind of internship and then we'd be left to teaching two locations on our own.
When the new semester started I had to get the higher belts up to speed with their new charts and the class ended up being 100% WC.  He was furious.  He said he didn't want an ALL WC class, which I assured him it wouldn't be, that I just needed to get the higher ranking students practicing on what they will have to know.  (we started with higher belt students with a TKD background)

He told us that he'd been talking to other Sifu's online and around the area and that they firmly stated that children lack the coordination and basicly I.Q. to learn WC, but gave them credit for having the negative motivations of adults in that they could hurt people with the training.

We've heard this bunk before, and for the past two years have had no problem teaching kids WC as well as instilling honor in respect to when to use it, and the responsibility of knowing it, stressing compassion, and understanding.
He was also afraid that our kids would "win" in his closed tournament too much and hurt his other instructors kids "self-esteeme" too much and that the other kids would want to learn WC from us instead.  ????!!!!???! What would that matter?  Dude's taking 90% of what we bring in at a location and is griping that more students would come to our location?!

Then he took the school from us in the "rich" area and stated that his boss forbade us from teaching WC.  But, it was okay for us to teach it to the gehetto kids at the location where NONE of his instructors want to teach.  This is the location we told him that he had lost many students due to the fact that they were getting beat up pretty regularly.  I grew up in that neighborhood.  That's an everyday common deal, fighting, and bs.  And the kids there really REALLY need WC.  He simply stated that "that was their problem."  But the entire deal really has me ticked off.  Outrageous!  You don't go to a mechanic to have your car fixed and when it breaks down because of his work have the guy say, "well, that's your problem!"  Or go to a doctor and get sicker and have him state, "oh, well, that's your problem!"  

Irresponsible.
Despicable.
And disgusting behavior!

I seem to keep running into this mentality in the martial arts community in reguards to teaching, especially kids.  This is totally unacceptable!  And a total waste of the parents and kids time and money.  I am NOT in the business to have kids hit re-breakable boards, yell alot, and learn in-effective garbage (I've Taken better karate, Tang soo do, and such than what is taught here) to build up a child's self-esteem with falsehood, just to have them completely devastated when they get hurt and find they can't defend themselves!

If other Sifu's don't want the responsbility of teaching kids, each to their own.  If other Sifu's can't figure out how to teach kids, or don't want to deal with it fine.  But that's their opinion and they should refrain from stepping on other WC teacher's toes about it.  And acting like their the expert in these matters.  Who do they really think they are?  How dare they make generalizing statements reguarding children when they spend NO time teaching children?!!

Frankly, my OPINION on teaching in general is this.  If you can't break WC down enough to explain it to a child you don't really need to be teaching.  WC is SIMPLICITY, and too many people over analyze the art to death.  Thus, making it less effective, overly complicated, and methodically mechanical.  The kid's I've taught have picked up WC faster than any adult we've EVER taught.  They don't have the preconcieved notions on how to fight and such that adults have.  Their sponges.  
It is scientific fact that as we get older we LOSE the ability to learn as we did as a child.  If kids can learn 2 and 3 languages at a time, I know they can handle the simple priciples of WC. 

Maybe this is more of this Kung Fu/Wing Chun politicing, maybe the guy is just a chicken and is hiding his opinion behind others.  But, we've heard this view point from other Sifu's in our area before.  I think it's weak.  We don't live in the kind of world where kids are just save and okay and it doesn't matter what you teach them as self defense.  We live in a world where for example, here in Texas a 6 year old girl was raped, and hung by the neck until dead in her garage by mom's live in boyfriend.  Where some dude kills both brothers of a family, rapes the sisters, and kills the single mom.  Do these Sifu's really wanna make the statement that these kids didn't need, or deserve to know a little WC?  That they can't tell the difference between right and wrong and know when to use it?  So many kids get kidnapped here and never come home alive, ever, that they started the Amber Alert system for missing kids right in my hometown here in Texas.  It's nationally used now.  Because these kids end up dead or worse.  

Parents know this.
The kids here know this.

This is why his rention rate is crap.  This is why he processes white belts every semester to get all the money he can before they leave the system.  This is why all these teachers do this.  And this is why WC is forbidden?  Because it's too effective for a child?!

As I've said before, I have very different viewpoints of WC than others, and am not impressed with the politicing either, nor do I care, until people make it my business by interferring with mine.  I don't care who these guys are, masters, sifu's whatever.  What they are doing is hurting the art by shutting it off from kids and women.  For this was the best opportunity I've ever had to reach women.  Already had 2-3 mothers that wanted to take the classes.  never could get that many in the past 2 years!  ARRRGGGHH! so frustrated!

My husband and I have created a really great children's curriculum and are going to pursue teaching it on our own.  If other Sifu's have a problem with it, tough.  We are unfederated and do not answer to any teacher, as is more and more my preference.  Because it gives us the freedom to evolve, adapt, and find the best ways to teach our students.  Plus, they don't have to be involved in the politics of my Sifu can beat up yours.  

Although, as a bonus the guy let us know my hubbie has gotten a "reputation" for "stealing" other Sifu's in the area's students.  Pretty silly.  These guys have been sending their students to our classes for over two years to "check us out" or whatever.  We didn't even know until they signed up for the classes and told us that they had been taking from someone else.  (And that their teacher sent them to us) If your going to send spies, then make sure they don't prefer the other teacher to you.  lol!  
Whatever.  It's like some B-movie old Kung-Fu theater.  entertaining, cheesy, but mostly annoying.  

Man, had to vent.  This has been upsetting me for two weeks now.  And I figure I'd check the waters to see what ya'll think by just jumping in feet first.
Pretty ticked at the WC community teaching wise right now, and will probably make a pretty big stink about it in my neck of the woods.


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## brocklee (Sep 22, 2007)

Hi Si-je 

I love reading your posts but disagree with this one.  WC shouldn't be taught to children or the gwilo...HAHAHA

This must be settled in COMBAT!  (hand slams down on the table)

Even though I'm joking, my sifu also believes that you shouldn't train children.  The mind has to develop.


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## Si-Je (Sep 22, 2007)

lol!  Like Bruce Lee, Giwilo, hehe

Honestly, the curriculum only covers grade 1 till they reach black belt, (2 years, or their older) to learn past grade 1.

We've had three kids, 9, 10, and 11 that we started teaching grade 2 based on their maturity level, plus were just good kids.  The picked it up as well as any adult.

This curriculum is formatted for 45 min. classes (with TKD kicks too cus their fun for the kids) once a week.  We want to do two days a week when we start teaching for ourselves again.

I wish I could have started training sooner as a kid.  It would have saved me a few butt kickin's as a kid.  I really love kids and just think they deserve better than what is so popular.  Grade 1 should be simple enough for them, and effective enough too.  Plus, we don't focus as much on chain punching for the kids.  Mainly focus on getting them to deflect and punch once at the same time, then kick and step as they get 6 months into it.  Focusing more on deflection than blitzing, or chain punching.

I figure we'll make some folks uncomfortable.  But I think people really underestimate kids, their sharp as tacks, and much hipper these days.


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## wck dallas (Sep 22, 2007)

I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office". 

   I know that kids learn TKD..Karate..etc.  etc. and some real damage could be done to other kids from these arts aswell, but as you alluded to, these schools are mostly crap "black belt" programs aimed at teaching kids discipline and structure....and perhaps a false sense of security...

  At Authentic Kung fu, where I train....again I ca'nt speak for WC abroad... WC can be "mastered" in 5-7 years. And I'm not sure 10-13 year old kids should be trained in Dim Mak etc.  

  Hell, I'm not even allowed to watch the advanced classes and I'm 32 years old ! ... those classes are closed to the public and to us less advanced wing chun students aswell.  

  In our less advanced class, we learn to punch to the throat...gouge eyeballs...strike to the temple...etc.   so god knows what crazy stuff is being tought behind those closed doors.

  Of course you could teach a watered down wing chun... but that kinda sucks for whoever is paying for it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2007)

wck dallas said:


> I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".
> 
> *I know that kids learn TKD..Karate..etc. etc. and some real damage could be done to other kids from these arts aswell, but as you alluded to, these schools are mostly crap "black belt" programs aimed at teaching kids discipline and structure....and perhaps a false sense of security...*
> 
> ...


 

I'm thinking that you didn't mean to sound so insulting to those of us that teach children martial arts?

I teach children in two age groups 4-7 and 7-14, the latter group are taught properly, they learn TSD,BJJ, Judo and self defence. The self defence is appropriate to the age group and we know it works. All our techniques do. We don't run Black Belt clubs, we don't aim to teach discipline or structure as a main subject, we teach martial arts, we are also a 'fighting' club.In the many years of teaching children I've never had a problem with the children using it outside the club inappropriately.

We are also an 'open' club, anyone is welcome, we don't have secret classes. 

Si-Je, go ahead and teach children! There's very little more rewarding.

I know little about Wing Chun but I doubt it's so different from other martial arts that it can't be taught to children.


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## brocklee (Sep 22, 2007)

wck dallas said:


> I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".
> 
> I know that kids learn TKD..Karate..etc.  etc. and some real damage could be done to other kids from these arts aswell, but as you alluded to, these schools are mostly crap "black belt" programs aimed at teaching kids discipline and structure....and perhaps a false sense of security...
> 
> ...



This is definitely a good reason.  I've seen black belt kids get their butt's whooped by just a regular child that has no training.  A WC child just has to perform the motions to be effective.  A black belt kid thinks he can throw a HUGE round house to the head, when infact he will probably end up missing and it will turn into a kid on kid grappling session.  The WC kid will end up having a direct line of attack and it will be simple to beat up others.


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## wck dallas (Sep 22, 2007)

I do appologize...it was not my intention to insult you or anyone else.
Certainly there are many schools that are great at teaching there MA to kids...and I'm sure your school is one of them.

  I should have said "in my experience".....


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## brocklee (Sep 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I'm thinking that you didn't mean to sound so insulting to those of us that teach children martial arts?
> 
> I teach children in two age groups 4-7 and 7-14, the latter group are taught properly, they learn TSD,BJJ, Judo and self defence. The self defence is appropriate to the age group and we know it works. All our techniques do. We don't run Black Belt clubs, we don't aim to teach discipline or structure as a main subject, we teach martial arts, we are also a 'fighting' club.In the many years of teaching children I've never had a problem with the children using it outside the club inappropriately.
> 
> ...



You should learn more about WC before directing people to teach it to children....it isn't know as the deadliest kung fu for no reason (i know, double negatives) hehe

Karate, TKD, and all those other MA's are great for them.  They're fun, they teach comradery, get the kids stretching and exercising, add self defense and a good deal of respect and discipline.  WC only teaches to fight effectively and hopefully win.  No moral value is taught, no exercising (unless the practitioner wishes), its not there to create discipline and ultimately is a disrespectful fighting style.  It simply is a tool and if in the wrong hands (a child) can be used in an effectively wrong manner.


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## brocklee (Sep 22, 2007)

I think if Si-Je wishes to teach children, she's making the right decision because she is very wise.  A few children taught here and there and under a watchful eye of someone that is respectable shouldn't pose a threat.  

Opening a hundred schools across the US to teach children to become fighting machines....that could be pretty bad.


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2007)

brocklee said:


> This is definitely a good reason. I've seen black belt kids get their butt's whooped by just a regular child that has no training. A WC child just has to perform the motions to be effective. A black belt kid thinks he can throw a HUGE round house to the head, when infact he will probably end up missing and it will turn into a kid on kid grappling session. The WC kid will end up having a direct line of attack and it will be simple to beat up others.


 

Oh and we don't have Black belt kids. The don't do 'huge' roundhouses to the head, they rarely miss their punches and kicks anyway. Yhey also know when and when not to use their MA.  

Our kids go onto be MMA fighters.Winning ones who can also defend themselves when needed.


Please don't turn the excellent OP into an argument over who's style's better by running down other MA.


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## brocklee (Sep 22, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Oh and we don't have Black belt kids. The don't do 'huge' roundhouses to the head, they rarely miss their punches and kicks anyway. Yhey also know when and when not to use their MA.
> 
> Our kids go onto be MMA fighters.Winning ones who can also defend themselves when needed.
> 
> ...




I've seen OP used a couple of times before here...what's it stand for?

thx in advance


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I've seen OP used a couple of times before here...what's it stand for?
> 
> thx in advance


 
Depending on the sentence it's either original post or original poster.

I know enough about martial arts to know that if a good instructor thinks they can teach and pass on knowledge to children then they should.

As I said before my club is a 'fighting' club, we have fun certainly, in the adults class too but we are primarily an MMA club. As I said we don't teach discipline as a primary subject though I guess it comes anyway. We teach fighting, I know a great many karate clubs that also do this, they aren't warm and fluffy places even for the kids who incidentally love it.


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## wck dallas (Sep 22, 2007)

I am not disrespecting other styles. All I'm saying is alot of MA would be great for kids...especially how they are tought in MOST schools here in America. But not wing chun for reasons stated above.

  I'm not speaking out of ignorance...growing up I took several MA from several schools... these were form / point sparring schools. Learn the kata...get a slap on the back and a new color to wear .... perhaps a trophy. most of these schools are more concerned with pleasing the soccer mom who is paying for it.  

  It's not the style...it's the american suburbia mentality.  NOT ALL SCHOOLS ARE THIS WAY....but if I had to guess I would say at least 90% are this way. I am speaking of kids classes here...not adult classes in the same school.  

  Originaly, when I started wing chun I wanted my 7 yr old daughter to take it as well....of course I had no idea the level of violence associated with WC at the time. So I went on a search to put her in a different style.
I found nothing worth spending my money on....as far as learning a true art. self defense...yes, discipline etc. yes. learning a true MA ...no.

  most of these schools had Karate on the big sign...but did'nt even teach Karate, rather they taught TKD or something else. there's nothing wrong with TKD.....But why the Karate signs ??????? It just plays into the mentality I'm speaking of.

  anyway...I'm on a rant... but I'm not trying to be disrespectful.


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## brocklee (Sep 22, 2007)

wck dallas said:


> I am not disrespecting other styles. All I'm saying is alot of MA would be great for kids...especially how they are tought in MOST schools here in America. But not wing chun for reasons stated above.
> 
> I'm not speaking out of ignorance...growing up I took several MA from several schools... these were form / point sparring schools. Learn the kata...get a slap on the back and a new color to wear .... perhaps a trophy. most of these schools are more concerned with pleasing the soccer mom who is paying for it.
> 
> ...



Great post, nothing disrespectful about it.


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## Tez3 (Sep 22, 2007)

wck dallas said:


> I am not disrespecting other styles. All I'm saying is alot of MA would be great for kids...especially how they are tought in MOST schools here in America. But not wing chun for reasons stated above.
> 
> I'm not speaking out of ignorance...growing up I took several MA from several schools... these were form / point sparring schools. Learn the kata...get a slap on the back and a new color to wear .... perhaps a trophy. most of these schools are more concerned with pleasing the soccer mom who is paying for it.
> 
> ...


 

LOL at on a rant! We all do that don't worry!


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## wck dallas (Sep 22, 2007)

k


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## Tanizaki (Sep 23, 2007)

brocklee said:


> You should learn more about WC before directing people to teach it to children....it isn't know as the deadliest kung fu for no reason (i know, double negatives) hehe



To whom is it known as the deadliest kung fu?


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## Tanizaki (Sep 23, 2007)

wck dallas said:


> I do'nt know much on WC abroad....but I know my sifu will teach taiji and real effective self defense techniques rooted in wing chun and mantis....but will not teach WC to the kids. I asked him why once and his reply was "you do'nt want that call from the school office".



With all respect to your instructor, that comment is a little goofy. If he really feared that liability, he would also extend it to the adults that he taught. 
I assume he'd prefer a call from the office than a visit from the local authorities. I don't know the law where you live, but I find it improbable that he would be subject to any civil liability.


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## brocklee (Sep 23, 2007)

Tanizaki said:


> To whom is it known as the deadliest kung fu?



No biggy, just pretend I never said it   Not getting sucked into THIS again


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## Tanizaki (Sep 23, 2007)

brocklee said:


> No biggy, just pretend I never said it   Not getting sucked into THIS again



Ok. I didn't ask you to support the idea that it is the deadliest. I merely asked to whom it is known as such.


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## brocklee (Sep 23, 2007)

lol the ignore feature is great.


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## Tez3 (Sep 23, 2007)

Tanizaki said:


> Ok. I didn't ask you to support the idea that it is the deadliest. I merely asked to whom it is known as such.


 
Well it's obviously known as the deadliest to those who know it's the deadliest! :uhyeah:


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## brocklee (Sep 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Well it's obviously known as the deadliest to those who know it's the deadliest! :uhyeah:



lol that's such a true statement, as funny as it may sound.


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## Tanizaki (Sep 23, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> Well it's obviously known as the deadliest to those who know it's the deadliest! :uhyeah:



In other words, people who say, "X is teh deadly" are really saying "I practice X".


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## wck dallas (Sep 23, 2007)

Tanizaki said:


> With all respect to your instructor, that comment is a little goofy. If he really feared that liability, he would also extend it to the adults that he taught.
> I assume he'd prefer a call from the office than a visit from the local authorities. I don't know the law where you live, but I find it improbable that he would be subject to any civil liability.


 

   what ???
   I guess you believe children have the same level of responibility as adults ?


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## Tanizaki (Sep 24, 2007)

wck dallas said:


> what ???
> I guess you believe children have the same level of responibility as adults ?



Wut?

The sifu's goofy comment reflects a belief that he would be liable for misuse of what he teaches, as if the dangerous instrumentality doctrine applied. The law makes no such distinction between children and adult in this manner. That instructor is surely not naive enough to believe that an adult would never misuse his instruction.

Mostly, I think he just wanted to make a comment saying that WC is oh-so-deadly.


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## Primal Kuen (Sep 24, 2007)

Tanizaki said:


> Wut?
> 
> The sifu's goofy comment reflects a belief that he would be liable for misuse of what he teaches, as if the dangerous instrumentality doctrine applied. The law makes no such distinction between children and adult in this manner. That instructor is surely not naive enough to believe that an adult would never misuse his instruction.
> 
> Mostly, I think he just wanted to make a comment saying that WC is oh-so-deadly.


 
  I believe that the Sifu is quoted by saying " YOU do'nt want that phone call from the school office ". Sounds like he was'nt implying that he would be liable....but the parent certainly would be.


  As for the Sifu just wanting to make a comment on the deadliness of WC, well I'm not getting in that debate beyond saying that the Sifu in question might know what he's talking about beyond you or me.....



> In 1998 Sifu Cottrell became the first Westerner to win first place at the Traditional Wu-Shu competition held in Jinan, China. He stands as the U.S. representative of the _*Yantai Boxing Association*_ as a recognized sifu of Northern Mantis in the Wong Hon Fun tradition. Sifu Cottrell and his students have been featured in Master's Demonstrations at prestigious martial arts events in the West and Asia, and Sifu Cottrell was privileged to perform at Grandmaster Chung's retirement ceremony in 1998. In 2002 Sifu Cottrell won two gold medals in traditional Gongfu competitions in Yantai, China.
> Having a master's degree in education and language skills in seven languages, including Chinese and Korean, Sifu Cottrell brings a unique perspective to the study of Kung-Fu that truly combines both the Wen, or liberal arts, and the Wu, or martial studies.
> A published author, Sifu Cottrell is also the principle performer in a 13-tape series, "Wing Chun For Combat" and co-hosts a tape series with Sifu Alan Lamb, _*"The Wing Chun Master's Series."*_



Link to original work


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## Tanizaki (Sep 24, 2007)

Primal Kuen said:


> I believe that the Sifu is quoted by saying " YOU do'nt want that phone call from the school office ". Sounds like he was'nt implying that he would be liable....but the parent certainly would be.


He must be a mighy warrior if he is so afraid of an irate phone call from a parent or school official that he alters his business for it.



> A published author, Sifu Cottrell is also the principle performer in a 13-tape series, "Wing Chun For Combat" and co-hosts a tape series with Sifu Alan Lamb, _*"The Wing Chun Master's Series."*_



Why did you copy and paste this advertising into your post? I am not interested in buying tapes.


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## Primal Kuen (Sep 25, 2007)

Tanizaki said:


> He must be a mighy warrior if he is so afraid of an irate phone call from a parent or school official that he alters his business for it.
> 
> 
> 
> Why did you copy and paste this advertising into your post? I am not interested in buying tapes.


 
  Because your interests do not dictate what I post ?


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## Carol (Sep 25, 2007)

This has been a very interesting discussion.

Primal, if you don't mind me asking...you seem to be quite knowledgeable of Sifu Cottrell.  Unfortunately I am not as familiar with him as I am not a Chinese stylist.  Would you mind describing a bit more about how he fits in to the topic of teaching children?  He sounds like an interesting teacher and I'd like to hear more about he fits in to the topic here.  Thanks!


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 25, 2007)

I think it is difficult to judge this. There shouldn't be a standard rule saying that kids should not be allowed to be taught wing chun, but I think that kids should be separated from the adults when doing it. I think also, you would need to watch the whole 'black belt in five weeks' syndrome which is rampant through martial arts. 

It was once suggested at Kamon that we should open up a kids class, and it is possible (you can mix games in with the martial arts etc). However, what you have to remember is that the joints and muscle haven't properly developed in young kids and doing the basic stance/bong sao, etc could mess up their legs/joint development

I am of the opinion that it is nice for kids to do martial arts as a hobby when younger, but they shouldn't be led to believe that they can seriously defend themselves at that age. 

I heard of one story in the UK that said that a kid had been taught by his sensei that he could take on anyone. He tried to take on an adult, lost and was pretty messed up because of it.


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## Tanizaki (Sep 25, 2007)

Primal Kuen said:


> Because your interests do not dictate what I post ?



Oh boy! I can't wait to start posting some adverts!


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## Si-Je (Sep 28, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> This has been a very interesting discussion.
> 
> Primal, if you don't mind me asking...you seem to be quite knowledgeable of Sifu Cottrell.  Unfortunately I am not as familiar with him as I am not a Chinese stylist.  Would you mind describing a bit more about how he fits in to the topic of teaching children?  He sounds like an interesting teacher and I'd like to hear more about he fits in to the topic here.  Thanks!



I'll tell ya.  He's the Sifu in DFW that has been the resident "expert" in Wing Chun for the past 25-30 years.  Mainly because he's been the ONLY WC teacher here for years.  There's some great instructors in Dallas but their usually too far for most people.  He teaches Mantis and WC.  But he doesn't really focus as much on teaching WC, as much as Mantis.   His teacher is Sifu Allen Lamb I believe.  

This is the guy that tells all the local students, parents, and other martial artists in my hometown that kids CAN'T learn WC.  We had a seven year old student who's cousin was taking Mantis from Cottrell.  Sifu Cottrell told this child that he didn't have the coordination to study WC and the ability to understand it because he wasn't developed enough.  Our student told his cousin that "his" Sifu, (my hubbie) that we teach him WC and said proudly that he could too practice WC.  That student could handle grade 1 easily and we were getting started on grade 2 when we had to close the school.

Like I said before, just because you cannot handle teaching kids, don't have the patience, or the time to spend teaching them martial morality, or are concerned with calls from the principle, then don't teach kids.  But leave us folks alone that can handle those issues.

Frankly, I'll take that call from the principle's office, go down there or whatever.  Wasn't afraid of the principle even when I was a kid.  lol!
I'd rather my students get into a "fight" hand to hand one on one, than what kids are doing today.  And most of the time, it's 3 to one or more!  Or there's weapons involved.  

It's not like I'm wanting to teach mook jong to 8 year olds, you don't have to go that far with the training for young kids.  Grade 1 and 2 are plenty until they get older.  I really don't see what's the big deal.
Other than the fact that it seems most instructors prefer to teach children less effective arts for "safety" reasons.  
blegh!
Personally, I'd trust a child's motives for fighting over an adults weird alterior motives for combat.  Kid's are simpler, their intentions more pure than that of any adult.  period.
Not worried about a kid running amock and doing serious harm to others as much as our adult students.

And for "legal" purposes here in my neck of the woods.  If a kid does serious assault they can be tried as an adult at age 16 and their working on making that younger.  The parents are directly liable for what their child does legally until this age.  And don't forget, who is truly responsible for raising a child?  Not the instructor, not the school teacher, not the cops, not the state.  

I personally think that kids are suffering needlessly when it comes to true, comprehensive, and effective self-defense training.  As well as safety awareness training.  Do you know that NONE of our kids knew any of the basics of stranger danger, environmental safety awareness, or even the basics of dialing 911?!  Unacceptable.  Our society is slacking.  

I'm sick of the Amber Alert, and kids getting killed, molested, and kidnapped.  These things are unnecessary, and preventable.  Teaching kids "safe" martial arts will only get them into more danger.  False hope, self-confidence, and false technique I find to be more damaging than the child knowing nothing at all.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> I think it is difficult to judge this. There shouldn't be a standard rule saying that kids should not be allowed to be taught wing chun


 
Nobody is in a position to make up such a rule and enforce it outside of their own school anyway.  This is really up to the individual instructor to decide for himself.



> However, what you have to remember is that the joints and muscle haven't properly developed in young kids and doing the basic stance/bong sao, etc could mess up their legs/joint development


 
True, many forms of exercise, including things like weight lifting should not be overdone at too young an age as it can adversely affect a child's growth.  But things like WC basic stance, and bong sao can screw up an adult's joints as well, or at least aggravate an existing chronic injury.  That much isn't limited to the children.



> I am of the opinion that it is nice for kids to do martial arts as a hobby when younger, but they shouldn't be led to believe that they can seriously defend themselves at that age.


 
yeah, too many commercial schools seem to fall into this pattern, or so it seems to me.  It goes along with giving high rank to young children.  It's a disservice to everyone involved.  False sense of security for the child, waters down the martial arts for everyone.


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## tenth1 (Sep 29, 2007)

i believe that kids can be taught and whats more they will learn faster than most adults can, as long as they are taught in a responsible manner then its fine. i dont believe that kids should be given a high rank such as black belt untill they reach an age and level of maturity where they can handle this responsibility, si je you and your husband sound as though you are responsible teachers with a genuine interest in the safety of kids and i congratulate you on your integrity


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## bcbernam777 (Sep 30, 2007)

Si-Je said:


> After the closure of the school, we thought we'd try working for a "non-profit" outfit for kids teaching Karate/TKD. The guy said we could teach Wing Chun as long as we adapted it to his curriculum and format.
> We did this. Simplfing Wing Chun so kids could pick it up much easier, the kids and parents loved it. We were to do a 6 week kind of internship and then we'd be left to teaching two locations on our own.
> When the new semester started I had to get the higher belts up to speed with their new charts and the class ended up being 100% WC. He was furious.
> He told us that he'd been talking to other Sifu's online and around the area and that they firmly stated that children lack the cordination and basicly I.Q. to learn WC, but gave them credit for having the negative motivations of adults in that they could hurt eachother with the training.
> ...


 
Kids can learn Wing Chun, this Sifu is wrong


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## Si-Je (Oct 3, 2007)

Well, I guess this has just riled me up quite a bit.  And seems to be controversial for some reason.  But, we're going to keep on teaching when and where we can.  Personally, I wish to concentrate on teaching women and children exclusively.  My hubbie can take the guys and teach them.  

My interest lies eleswhere when it comes to teaching.  
And I truely feel that women and children have been short changed when it comes to true self-defense.  

Especially children.


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