# Roundhouse kicks in forms



## skribs (Nov 14, 2022)

I come from a TKD background.  Specifically, Kukkiwon Taekwondo.  One thing I've noticed is that our staple kick - the roundhouse kick - is basically nonexistent in our forms.  Out of 17 official Kukkiwon forms (8 colored belt forms and 9 black belt forms), the roundhouse kick appears twice in the form Taegeuk #6, and that's it.  It's a 3rd-keub form.  There are 0 roundhouse kicks in the black belt forms.  My school had our own set of forms as well.  We had 5 beginner forms, 8 advanced forms, and at least 4 black belt forms that I learned (in addition to kukkiwon requirements).  There were 0 roundhouse kicks in our colored belt forms, and only a couple in black belt forms #1 and #4.

There was a claim made in another thread about the way roundhouse kicks are done in TKD forms vs. Karate forms.  In responding to that claim, I wanted to point out how few roundhouse kicks there are in forms.  I did find that some other TKD associations have form sets which feature the roundhouse more prominently than in my organization and school.  However, in looking at Karate, I found even less.  I read through several step-by-step descriptions and watched several other Karate forms, and did not see a single roundhouse kick.  Then I googled "Karate forms with roundhouse kick", copied and pasted the Japanese term for roundhouse kick, and then searched again...all I found were articles about how there aren't any.

I did find some examples of bunkai showing how certain steps can be reinterpreted as a roundhouse kick, but no examples of a roundhouse kick in the rote version of the kata.

This leads me to 2 questions:

Is my research correct, or are there forms I am unaware of that do include a roundhouse kick?
Why is the roundhouse kick excluded from forms so?
I wanted to come and ask here (on the Karate forum) for a couple of reasons.  First, to satisfy my curiosity on point #1.  But I also know that Karate folk go much more in-depth on the meaning behind the forms than TKD typically does, and would like to hear opinions from this side of the house on why the roundhouse kick is so absent.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 14, 2022)

Off the top of my head I can only think of one kata with any round houses, but it’s also a very modern kata by comparison to all the others.

Karate is at its base and it’s origin purely about self defense, and roundhouse kicks aren’t particularly useful for that purpose. 

Idk if it’s true that savate had an influence on karate in the 20s-30s but that’s something that is a decently well spread idea. The head kicks are believed to come from savate, and the round house kick may also have come from savate.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 14, 2022)

I can think of 2 reasons:

- The roundhouse kick is easier to catch than the front kick or side kick.
- Also in weapon fight, a roundhouse kick may send your leg toward your opponent's sword blade.

May be the roundhouse kick was not used as much as we have used in modern sport.

A: How did you lose your leg?
B: I threw a roundhouse kick at my opponent. He turned his samurai sword blade into my kick.


----------



## MadMartigan (Nov 14, 2022)

In the Chang Hon TKD forms, there are quite a few. The difference being that the roundhouse kicks (we call them turning kicks in our school) are delivered with the ball of the foot rather than the instep. This makes them harder to distinguish from side kicks in still photos (as the end position looks nearly the same). They first show up at 2nd Kyu and are in many of the black belt hyung.

That's interesting that they do not appear in most Karate kata ('cause let's be honest, the Chang Hon forms were Shotokan kata placed into a new order of moves). I would have expected to find them more prevalent. Learn something new every day I guess.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 14, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Off the top of my head I can only think of one kata with any round houses, but it’s also a very modern kata by comparison to all the others.
> 
> Karate is at its base and it’s origin purely about self defense, and roundhouse kicks aren’t particularly useful for that purpose.
> 
> Idk if it’s true that savate had an influence on karate in the 20s-30s but that’s something that is a decently well spread idea. The head kicks are believed to come from savate, and the round house kick may also have come from savate.


One thing I know about Kyokushin is that Mas loved roundhouse kicks above the belt.  Those were his go tos.

I def think by the time he started training there was some cross cultural influence, esp considering the lack of full contact kumite at the time.  It just wasn't a regular thing but over in some other countries it was super common.

Then you look at places like Thailand or Canton, and wonder why that was.  Effective roundhouses are as old as time, right?  But somehow Mas needed to reintroduce it in Japan.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Nov 15, 2022)

Roundhouse kicks are practically non-existent in traditional karate forms; I know they don't show up in my style's basic kihon techniques.  Why? I don't know.  But that doesn't mean they were not taught and practiced.  I've seen pictures of Funakoshi using it.  I think they are quite effective - like a hook (round house) punch.  And like that punch, IMO, it's best to use closer in than the more extended kind you see in TKD and tournaments.  Like MadMartigan, I was taught to use the ball of the foot so it digs into the ribs or gut.


----------



## Gyakuto (Nov 15, 2022)

I used to substitute roundhouse/side/back kicks etc into my kata for a bit of training experience. Standing versions of these kicks especially from feet together stance (heisokudachi) can be _very_ challenging.


----------



## _Simon_ (Nov 15, 2022)

Yep Mas Oyama (founder of Kyokushin) created a kata called Garyu, which has a few roundhouse kicks, as he loved them haha. It even has a spinning reverse roundhouse kick too! Also he created the Taikyoku Sokugi kata (essentially kicking kata, and definitely more of a training drill/exercise), and the 4th one has roundhouse kicks.

Just found some other Kyokushin katas.. and jyu no kata sono ni has round kicks... but never heard of these and don't know where they stem from...

Also the Ashihara karate guys have their own Jissen or fighting kata, which has round kicks.

But none others that I know of ie the traditional styles. I think this goes back to the other thread about certain techniques being absent in forms. The way I see it, forms are meant to be trained to communicate essential principles and instil a type of body intelligence rather than just be a dictionary of techniques you'll find in the system.


----------



## tkdroamer (Nov 15, 2022)

I waited to post this thinking you would find it on your own, but I wanted to pass this on. 
In 2016, Kukkiwon started working on a new set of competition forms. They are heavy and kicks compared to the current Taeguek and Yudnaja poomsae, including a Lot of roundhouses. This site does a good job of previewing the forms: KKW Competition Poomsae


----------



## wab25 (Nov 15, 2022)

In Karate, the Kata are not meant to be a dictionary of moves that define the art. A move or technique does not need to be found in an official Kata, to be part of the art. 

Kata is one part of the training. It is step 1. Kata is more about the principles and core fundamentals. Once you start to understand to principles and core fundamentals of Karate, you can then do Karate, with any technique at all... if you are applying and using the core fundamentals of Karate.

There are many other parts of Karate training. Those parts do contain round house kicks. We need to stop pretending that Kata is a dictionary of all techniques contained in a system. This thinking artificially constrains an art to a very small subset of techniques... all because the practitioner who does this, will not put in the time to look beyond copying. Kata is not about the techniques.... there are other parts of the training that are about the techniques. Kata is about the core fundamentals and core principles.


----------



## skribs (Nov 15, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> I waited to post this thinking you would find it on your own, but I wanted to pass this on.
> In 2016, Kukkiwon started working on a new set of competition forms. They are heavy and kicks compared to the current Taeguek and Yudnaja poomsae, including a Lot of roundhouses. This site does a good job of previewing the forms: KKW Competition Poomsae


Until they are official, I'm not counting them.  These forms are part of the organizational politics I'm not really fond of.  My Master's theory was that the creators of the these forms want to teach them in their schools before they're officially released, so that their students will win a bunch of tournaments in the year or two after they're released.


----------



## skribs (Nov 15, 2022)

wab25 said:


> In Karate, the Kata are not meant to be a dictionary of moves that define the art. A move or technique does not need to be found in an official Kata, to be part of the art.
> 
> Kata is one part of the training. It is step 1. Kata is more about the principles and core fundamentals. Once you start to understand to principles and core fundamentals of Karate, you can then do Karate, with any technique at all... if you are applying and using the core fundamentals of Karate.
> 
> There are many other parts of Karate training. Those parts do contain round house kicks. We need to stop pretending that Kata is a dictionary of all techniques contained in a system. This thinking artificially constrains an art to a very small subset of techniques... all because the practitioner who does this, will not put in the time to look beyond copying. Kata is not about the techniques.... there are other parts of the training that are about the techniques. Kata is about the core fundamentals and core principles.


This is an explanation of why *it's okay* the roundhouse kick isn't present, but still doesn't clear up why it isn't present to begin with.  Is it an oversight?  Is it omitted because of aesthetic reasons, that straight kicks look better?  Is it because the creators of the forms felt like @GojuTommy that the roundhouse kick wasn't practical for their purposes?  Or alternatively, because it shows up so much in other training it was pointless to add into the kata?

I'm biased from my TKD experience, but the roundhouse kick is *the* kick in TKD.  If you could only learn one kick and be effective in TKD sparring, it would be the roundhouse kick.  If I were told to only teach one kick in the white belt class, out of the basic kicks, I would choose the roundhouse, because virtually every combination involves a roundhouse at some point.  We do them all of the time.  Yet, our official forms have 1 form with a couple of roundhouse kicks, and that's it. 

While I don't expect the forms to be comprehensive technical appendices of the art, I would think that the kick that is the identity of TKD would show up in the forms.  Obviously, the roundhouse kick is less important to Karate than it is to TKD (not saying it isn't important in Karate, but it isn't *the* technique in Karate), so this criticism doesn't apply to Karate.  And I may be way off-base.

From the TKD forms, it would be like going to a Microsoft museum and not seeing Windows.  I wouldn't expect every version of Windows (for example, they might purposefully omit Vista), but I would expect to at least see one instance of their flagship operating system that's basically ruled the world for the last 30 years.  From the Karate forms, maybe it's more like going to a Microsoft museum and not seeing Solitaire; something that is very present on Microsoft OS, but not necessarily the focal point.


----------



## tkdroamer (Nov 15, 2022)

skribs said:


> Until they are official, I'm not counting them.  These forms are part of the organizational politics I'm not really fond of.  My Master's theory was that the creators of the these forms want to teach them in their schools before they're officially released, so that their students will win a bunch of tournaments in the year or two after they're released.


You asked about forms with roundhouse kicks, here they are. They are being used in competition although not 'official'.


----------



## skribs (Nov 15, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> You asked about forms with roundhouse kicks, here they are. They are being used in competition although not 'official'.


I asked about *Karate *forms with roundhouse kicks.


----------



## tkdroamer (Nov 15, 2022)

skribs said:


> I asked about *Karate *forms with roundhouse kicks.


Yet you repeatedly insert TKD in the conversation. Your OP talks about the Taegueks. These are Not Karate forms. 

I understand the roundhouse kick is not often seen in forms (from all styles). I think part of it is because the roundhouse is a relatively new kick. Many of the traditional, and even more modern form sets were created before the roundhouse became so prevalent. 
I also think it is because a roundhouse can be thrown so many different ways and so sloppily and still be effective. This goes against the grain of teaching proper technique through practicing forms. 

The roundhouse was used mostly as a complementary kick until recently, not as much of a stand-alone kick. It is great for setups and follow ups. Not as well-known as a finishing kick. That said, they can be Very effective, and I have seen TKOs from kicks to the midsection. But it does seem this is becoming a lost art.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2022)

I've got a simple answer that most likely is not validated by any official teachings, but is something that I've noticed/a personal theory. Sidekicks, front kicks, hook kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks, are all fairly easy to do in the air. It's easy to stop them, control them, and no real strain is put on your (tendons?) when you do it. Roundhouse, from my experience and watching others, are different. You can throw them in the air, but stopping without feedback and going back to chamber, can result in a small sprain that can add up after time. I've seen it with myself during times I'm not flexible, and with a lot of other students who only like to throw roundhouse kicks on a bag. 

Again from personal experience, this doesn't hold true if rather than a chamber roundhouse and pull back, you just keep your kick going and go all the way through, but that's not done in the Ken/mpo I've done and from my understand is also not typical in TKD/other karate styles. 

With that in mind, if I was creating a training regimen, I wouldn't include roundhouses in forms/'air' drills (or very few, anyway), and keep those to primarily done on contact/bags/pads.


----------



## skribs (Nov 15, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've got a simple answer that most likely is not validated by any official teachings, but is something that I've noticed/a personal theory. Sidekicks, front kicks, hook kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks, are all fairly easy to do in the air. It's easy to stop them, control them, and no real strain is put on your (tendons?) when you do it. Roundhouse, from my experience and watching others, are different. You can throw them in the air, but stopping without feedback and going back to chamber, can result in a small sprain that can add up after time. I've seen it with myself during times I'm not flexible, and with a lot of other students who only like to throw roundhouse kicks on a bag.
> 
> Again from personal experience, this doesn't hold true if rather than a chamber roundhouse and pull back, you just keep your kick going and go all the way through, but that's not done in the Ken/mpo I've done and from my understand is also not typical in TKD/other karate styles.
> 
> With that in mind, if I was creating a training regimen, I wouldn't include roundhouses in forms/'air' drills (or very few, anyway), and keep those to primarily done on contact/bags/pads.


I've heard this as well.  But in TKD we do roundhouse kicks in air drills all the time.

There are a lot of "You shouldn't do X because [insert sport science here] will lead to [insert long-term adverse effect here]", that don't really hold up in my experience.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 15, 2022)

skribs said:


> I've heard this as well.  But in TKD we do roundhouse kicks in air drills all the time.
> 
> There are a lot of "You shouldn't do X because [insert sport science here] will lead to [insert long-term adverse effect here]", that don't really hold up in my experience.


I'm not going based on sport science. I'm just going from my experience. Doing air roundhouse causes me issues, and I've seen the same in other less-flexible people.

One guess for why it might be different for you (beyond just different sample sets), is that in TKD you focus on kicks a lot more, so you develop the flexible and right muscle strengths to do that. In people that don't focus on kicks as much, such as most karate styles (which is also where most TKD forms are derived from), that wouldn't be as true.

Just to add another possibility, it's possible that you don't put as much power (unintentionally) into your air-roundhouse as the people that have the issue/your school taught to limit the strength to it (unintentionally), to allow for the pull-back. I can't say if that's true or not, but I have seen that happen before.


----------



## tkdroamer (Nov 15, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've got a simple answer that most likely is not validated by any official teachings, but is something that I've noticed/a personal theory. Sidekicks, front kicks, hook kicks, back kicks, spinning kicks, are all fairly easy to do in the air. It's easy to stop them, control them, and no real strain is put on your (tendons?) when you do it. Roundhouse, from my experience and watching others, are different. You can throw them in the air, but stopping without feedback and going back to chamber, can result in a small sprain that can add up after time. I've seen it with myself during times I'm not flexible, and with a lot of other students who only like to throw roundhouse kicks on a bag.
> 
> Again from personal experience, this doesn't hold true if rather than a chamber roundhouse and pull back, you just keep your kick going and go all the way through, but that's not done in the Ken/mpo I've done and from my understand is also not typical in TKD/other karate styles.
> 
> With that in mind, if I was creating a training regimen, I wouldn't include roundhouses in forms/'air' drills (or very few, anyway), and keep those to primarily done on contact/bags/pads.


That is a good point. Not certain but I believe the roundhouse kicks in the new KKW form set are all 'carry through' kicks as you describe.


----------



## wab25 (Nov 15, 2022)

skribs said:


> This is an explanation of why *it's okay* the roundhouse kick isn't present, but still doesn't clear up why it isn't present to begin with. Is it an oversight? Is it omitted because of aesthetic reasons, that straight kicks look better? Is it because the creators of the forms felt like @GojuTommy that the roundhouse kick wasn't practical for their purposes? Or alternatively, because it shows up so much in other training it was pointless to add into the kata?


One of the hallmarks of the United States is individual freedom. We like to claim we are a free nation and a free people.... Yet our Constitution does not include the word "freedom" ever. It includes the word "free" one time. How can it be that the document that organized us as a free nation of free people, who have all these individual freedoms... does not use the word freedom?

Think of the Kata as essays on the core fundamentals and principles of Karate. Or maybe they are chapters in a book. The things put into the Kata, are the words and phrases used to communicate the core fundamentals and principles of Karate. 

To understand the Constitution, you have to do more than merely memorize the words. Further, the Constitution sets the stage, and establishes core fundamentals that allow lots of other things to exist and function, even though those words are not used in the Constitution itself. The Bill of Rights exists, because the Constitution exists and allows for amendments. These amendments talk about things that the Constitution does not... but the Constitution is the foundation.


----------



## _Simon_ (Nov 15, 2022)

skribs said:


> This is an explanation of why *it's okay* the roundhouse kick isn't present, but still doesn't clear up why it isn't present to begin with.  Is it an oversight?  Is it omitted because of aesthetic reasons, that straight kicks look better?  Is it because the creators of the forms felt like @GojuTommy that the roundhouse kick wasn't practical for their purposes?  Or alternatively, because it shows up so much in other training it was pointless to add into the kata?
> 
> I'm biased from my TKD experience, but the roundhouse kick is *the* kick in TKD.  If you could only learn one kick and be effective in TKD sparring, it would be the roundhouse kick.  If I were told to only teach one kick in the white belt class, out of the basic kicks, I would choose the roundhouse, because virtually every combination involves a roundhouse at some point.  We do them all of the time.  Yet, our official forms have 1 form with a couple of roundhouse kicks, and that's it.
> 
> ...


I actually don't even think they did roundhouse kicks in the days that those kata were created haha, I could be wrong, but maybe that's why. I don't think they even had mid level sidekicks/yoko geris in some of the older versions of kata (Okinawan styles), only added them in more "modern" Japanese styles.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 16, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> I actually don't even think they did roundhouse kicks in the days that those kata were created haha, I could be wrong, but maybe that's why. I don't think they even had mid level sidekicks/yoko geris in some of the older versions of kata (Okinawan styles), only added them in more "modern" Japanese styles.


I know that kicks above the waist we’re very uncommon back in the day.


----------

