# old school/clasic tkd



## Manny

This morning went to my former dogan j and had a little chat with my former sambonim, a man I respect alot and certanly a great and good influence in my life, Master Ramon Alvite Gazca. When I meet Mastar Alvite he was a 3rd dan and he was the representative of Jido Kwan in my estate, he was the first TKD sambonim in my state and city, right now he is  7th dan Black Belt.

We chat and chat about olimpic TKD and clasic TKD, about the old good days and today, the nice things we had in the past and it was very refreshing.

Master Alvite told me he still teaches TKD like he did 30 years ago and I know it's true cause I have visiting him over the years and sat and saw his class, he told me because of politics he quit the State TKD Asociation and even he was a good fighter in his youth and even national champ he does not like the way TKD is been taught this days because it's Olimpic tKD only and TKD is much more than that.

I had a wonderful time chating with my mentor and it's ggod to know we have strong feelings for each other, he is a gentelman and one of the best TKD men I Know.

Manny


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## Kinghercules

I understand where you're coming from.  For some reason the Olympic style of TDK is more well know and practice than it was before.  From what I can tell the old way of training and fighting become the "American freestyle" sparring.  I cant stand thins kinda sparring.  Its like you're playing tag in the ring.  And another thing is that its a money thing.  When ppl walk into a dojo and see the matted floor and the students all padded up when sparring they think thats how its suppose to be because thats what is shown on tv.


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## ralphmcpherson

Good to hear manny. He sounds similar to our GM, still teaches the same way today as he did 40 years ago, and not happy with the direction the art has gone in relation to sport, olympics etc. Good to hear there are like minded instructors out there. Of course certain people will jump on here and tell you he should move with the times or that he has "stagnated" or that he is "bitter" or doesnt "follow the wishes of the pioneers" etc etc But Im glad there are still the old school guys out there teaching how they feel tkd should be taught and not just mindlessly following the masses. Good on him Manny.


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## RobinTKD

What I love about Taekwondo, is that it allows so much freedom of expression within the art, you can have your own style within the style and still be recognisable as taekwondoin. If that means you teach and learn in an 'Old School' way, then that's good if it works, the same if you take a more modern approach, or a sports approach. There is no right or wrong path as long as your technique is good and you adhere to the principles.

Manny, as you've been feeling a little bitter about your current class, why not train with your original GM? It sounds like you'd have a great time.


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## GlassJaw

My school is part of the Chung Do Kwan, which, like the Ji Do you mentioned, is one of the original kwans recognized/overseen by the Kukkiwan.  As we still maintain that association [I mention this because I know that there are many schools and now-independent organizations that have split with their parent kwans, yet retain their kwan name], WTF-style sparring remains an official part of our curriculum (and also part of our testing requirements).

However, sport sparring is by no means the main focus of what we do.  It is more an off-shoot activity that allows contact application of TKD techniques in a controlled environment.  Training for it also permits us to better participate with other clubs in tournaments.  (Being able to interact with other schools and observe the great variety within TKD is one of the things I love most about tournaments.)

Granted, for many members of our school, sparring is their favorite part of TKD. However, for some others, like myself, it is just a minor enhancement to the program.  I do enjoy it (usually), but only as a supplement to (or occasional distraction from) the rest of the training.  (Admittedly, I suppose I might be more into it if I was any good at it.)

I find I have a greater preference for the more traditional aspects (as I see them) of TKD training: forms, SD, discipline, philosophy, etc.  For that matter, I'm not particularly drawn to street fighting, either.  My own goals are mainly related to fitness, overcoming physical and mental challenges, and developing/expanding my abilities.  (Winning a match generally gives me less personal satisfaction than does finally managing to execute a difficult spin kick.)  

My only real dislike of sparring is the increased risk of sustaining injuries that might interfere with the rest of my training (or with my ability to function outside the dojang).  No matter the controls, sparring carries such risk.  And my medical insurance does not cover much.

I'm not a fighter. . .don't really seek to be one.  Sure, it would be nice to know that I have some skills that could help me out of a confrontation, but if I was really concerned about that, TKD would likely not have been my first choice.  (And certainly not Olympic-style sparring.) Similarly, it would be nice to know how to dance the tango, too, but that's also just not something I've ever felt enough to need to pursue learning.

To me, sparring is just a game.  Some do it competitively, others just recreationally.  Same is true of chess.  I enjoy the occasional chess game--sometimes I even win, but I have little desire to develop or demonstrate excellence at it.

Were sparring (or, for that matter, _any_ single aspect of the training in our club) to become our primary focus, I expect I would lose interest in TKD altogether.  I like having a balanced program.


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## mastercole

Manny said:


> This morning went to my former dogan j and had a little chat with my former sambonim, a man I respect alot and certanly a great and good influence in my life, Master Ramon Alvite Gazca. When I meet Mastar Alvite he was a 3rd dan and he was the representative of Jido Kwan in my estate, he was the first TKD sambonim in my state and city, right now he is  7th dan Black Belt.
> 
> We chat and chat about olimpic TKD and clasic TKD, about the old good days and today, the nice things we had in the past and it was very refreshing.
> 
> Master Alvite told me he still teaches TKD like he did 30 years ago and I know it's true cause I have visiting him over the years and sat and saw his class, he told me because of politics he quit the State TKD Asociation and even he was a good fighter in his youth and even national champ he does not like the way TKD is been taught this days because it's Olimpic tKD only and TKD is much more than that.
> 
> I had a wonderful time chating with my mentor and it's ggod to know we have strong feelings for each other, he is a gentelman and one of the best TKD men I Know.
> 
> Manny



Who was his Jidokwan teacher?


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## chrispillertkd

Manny, you may have posted the reason why before but is there any reason why you no longer train at your old Ji Do Kwan school? From this post of yours it sounds like that school might be a better fit for you than the place at which you currently train.

In any event, it's always good to see old martial art friends.

Pax,

Chris


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## Gemini

While I certainly enjoy sparring and will always incorporate it in my training, this sounds like my kind of school. Why did you quit training there, Manny?


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## andyjeffries

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't like to be teaching the same way I do now in 40 years. I don't even stretch or wam students up the same way I did 10 years ago, let alone how it will be 40 years from now! Things change...


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## mastercole

andyjeffries said:


> Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't like to be teaching the same way I do now in 40 years. I don't even stretch or wam students up the same way I did 10 years ago, let alone how it will be 40 years from now! Things change...



Right, why go backwards.


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## Kong Soo Do

You don't fix what isn't broken.  'New and Improved' is often a marketing scam, generally speaking.  Having a quality product, and maintaining a quality product isn't going backwards, it is after all, a quality product.  I feel sorry for the newer TKD students of today that never had an exposure to that quality product.


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## Jaeimseu

Kong Soo Do said:


> You don't fix what isn't broken.  'New and Improved' is often a marketing scam, generally speaking.  Having a quality product, and maintaining a quality product isn't going backwards, it is after all, a quality product.  I feel sorry for the newer TKD students of today that never had an exposure to that quality product.


 Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon.  I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."


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## Kong Soo Do

Jaeimseu said:


> Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon. I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."



Fair enough.  What would you consider as an improvement?


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## Jaeimseu

GlassJaw said:


> Were sparring (or, for that matter, _any_ single aspect of the training in our club) to become our primary focus, I expect I would lose interest in TKD altogether.  I like having a balanced program.


I would think you would lose interest in your club, as opposed to losing interest in taekwondo.


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## mastercole

Jaeimseu said:


> Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon.  I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."



Excellent point, but it is hard for some people to understand what you are saying, especially if they never trained in the modern training methods. Training like they did 40 or 50 years ago is really just from a lack of experience and not knowing any better.


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## Jaeimseu

Kong Soo Do said:


> Fair enough.  What would you consider as an improvement?


I think there are any number of improvements that have been made. I think a lot of these improvements have to do with the way we train to get the results we desire. I know many people here don't like to mix the word sports with taekwondo, but modern sport specific training methods for developing strength and speed (among other things) enable modern athletes to develop specific skills much more safely and efficiently than in the past. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I believe humans  today (with very few exceptions) are bigger, stronger, faster, and more skilled than ever before, because they eat, sleep, and train differently than before. 

I don't think just any change in the way things are done can always be called an improvement, but the modern way of training that I am talking about has been tested and tested again. Say what you will about sports or competition, but the results of the training will be plain to see. If it works, it works.


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## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> Excellent point, but it is hard for some people to understand what you are saying, especially if they never trained in the modern training methods. Training like they did 40 or 50 years ago is really just from a lack of experience and not knowing any better.



Your making assumptions Al, based upon your own limited experience.  I've trained in both venues, I see the greater value in the old school methods.  Particularly based upon my motivations in training i.e. SD.  Old school TKD is much closer to Japanese/Okiwnawan Karate, which I have experience in as well.  And though some branches of Karate have 'modernized', many remain true and consistant to the source.


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## mastercole

Jaeimseu said:


> I think there are any number of improvements that have been made. I think a lot of these improvements have to do with the way we train to get the results we desire. I know many people here don't like to mix the word sports with taekwondo, but modern sport specific training methods for developing strength and speed (among other things) enable modern athletes to develop specific skills much more safely and efficiently than in the past. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I believe humans  today (with very few exceptions) are bigger, stronger, faster, and more skilled than ever before, because they eat, sleep, and train differently than before.
> 
> I don't think just any change in the way things are done can always be called an improvement, but the modern way of training that I am talking about has been tested and tested again. Say what you will about sports or competition, but the results of the training will be plain to see. If it works, it works.



And it continues to improve, which is a good thing and is within it's self truly self defense oriented. It also opens the door for full contact training to non-competitors alike, which is the pinnacle of self defense training.


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## Kong Soo Do

Jaeimseu said:


> I think there are any number of improvements that have been made. I think a lot of these improvements have to do with the way we train to get the results we desire. I know many people here don't like to mix the word sports with taekwondo, but modern sport specific training methods for developing strength and speed (among other things) enable modern athletes to develop specific skills much more safely and efficiently than in the past. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I believe humans today (with very few exceptions) are bigger, stronger, faster, and more skilled than ever before, because they eat, sleep, and train differently than before.
> 
> I don't think just any change in the way things are done can always be called an improvement, but the modern way of training that I am talking about has been tested and tested again. Say what you will about sports or competition, but the results of the training will be plain to see. If it works, it works.



Can you be more specific?  Perhaps, as you mention in regards to sport.  Though it seems the rules change.  But from the perspective of why the martial arts were created, I see modern TKD'ist at a distinct disadvantage vs. those that train old school.  Old school had grappling, throws, chokes, locks and a ground component, the same as Karate.  I don't see modern TKD adept in these areas unless the instructor happens to toss a few things in here and there.

In regards to strength, actually this is more due to modern chemistry.  In the past, considering natural athletes, they were much stronger pound for pound due to old school training methods.  Methods which are seeing a resurgance in popularity because of there effectiveness.


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## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> It also opens the door for full contact training to non-competitors alike, which is the pinnacle of self defense training.



Actually, you're wrong on this point.  It is not the pinnacle of SD training, rather the methodology is the factor.  You need to stop confusing the two entities as it is a disservice to those that honestly which to learn SD as a goal in their training.


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## Jaeimseu

Kong Soo Do said:


> Can you be more specific?  Perhaps, as you mention in regards to sport.  Though it seems the rules change.  But from the perspective of why the martial arts were created, I see modern TKD'ist at a distinct disadvantage vs. those that train old school.  Old school had grappling, throws, chokes, locks and a ground component, the same as Karate.  I don't see modern TKD adept in these areas unless the instructor happens to toss a few things in here and there.
> 
> In regards to strength, actually this is more due to modern chemistry.  In the past, considering natural athletes, they were much stronger pound for pound due to old school training methods.  Methods which are seeing a resurgance in popularity because of there effectiveness.



I mean in terms of achieving whatever training goals you have in mind. I don't train with a purely self defense mind-set, nor do I believe most people train that way these days. I think people have a variety of motivations for training, be it health, social, sports, or self-defense. I believe that with few exceptions the majority of people will be better served training with modern methods. You obviously feel that the old ways suit you better, and I really have no issue with that. I don't believe newer is better simply because it is newer, but I don't believe older is better because it's older, either.

As far as natural athletes in the past is concerned, I don't think we can accurately say they were or weren't stronger pound for pound, but we can accurately say that they weren't competing against other athletes training with today's methods. These days it's not enough to be a natural athlete. Simply being a natural athlete won't get you to the top.


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## Kong Soo Do

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't train with a purely self defense mind-set, nor do I believe most people train that way these days. I think people have a variety of motivations for training, be it health, social, sports, or self-defense.



Yes, I hear this put forth quite a bit.  SD seems to be at the bottom of the list, on some people's list.  But I can't help but feel that is intentional.  After all, SD is straight-foward and hard work.  It isn't flashy like sport.  It doesn't keep the kids, or fast-food society adults 'entertained'.  And it certainly doesn't help the instructor...let's see, how did Al put it...'drive his mercedez to the bank'.  And with all the Mcdojangs around touting entertainment disguised as SD, other reasons need to come to the surface for training.  Let's be honest, when one thinks of a hard-core method of SD...TKD isn't on most people's list.  And there is a valid reason it isn't...because 'modern' TKD doesn't use effective SD training methodoloy.

But it use to have it!  That is my point.  So perhaps we can compromise on our positions;  Old school probably wouldn't do for modern sport training.  But modern doesn't hold a candle to old school as far as SD.  

As an example;







Most 'modern' TKD practitioners would think this down block is used to block an incoming kick or strike.  And that's a shame, because it isn't meant for that at all.


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## Gemini

Jaeimseu said:


> Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon.  I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."


All good points, but I think we went in two different directions here. "Improving" techniques and changing focus on training are not the same thing. I see this as addressing strategy, which I agree is ever evolving as circumstance changes, as opposed to technical execution, which as often as not, does not benefit from modernization. That's not to say it can't, but it often does not. Norrowing the training down to focus on only certain aspects of a originally wider curriculum is a losing proposition in my mind, which is what I took from the OP.


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## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> You don't fix what isn't broken.  'New and Improved' is often a marketing scam, generally speaking.  Having a quality product, and maintaining a quality product isn't going backwards, it is after all, a quality product.  I feel sorry for the newer TKD students of today that never had an exposure to that quality product.


To quote Billy Joel "The good ol' days weren't always so good and  tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems".  Not quite sure how using modern  training methods or "new and improve" as you put it will net me more money, nor do I know of any TKD school that says we are new and improve...better than the old TKD.  Horse and buggy have been around for centuries, they worked just fine, yet some darn whipper snapper came up with that noisy automijigy thing.  

I like reminiscing about the "good ol' days" just as much as the next person, and I still use methods of training that I was taught when I first started.  However, things evolve even in the realm of SD.  People who trained in SD decades ago would not be training in the same manner today simply because of new research about the mindset of an attacker, mindset of a victim and other factors have come to light.  Sure basics may be the same, but if you are training the same way they did back in the '40's you will most likely have your *** handed to you in the street today.


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## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let's be honest, when one thinks of a hard-core method of SD...TKD isn't on most people's list.  And there is a valid reason it isn't...because 'modern' TKD doesn't use effective SD training methodoloy.


I am curious as how you came to this conclusion.  Can you please explain your reasoning behind it siting examples from your modern TKD training methods and how they conflict with your hardcore SD training methods?


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## mastercole

miguksaram said:


> To quote Billy Joel "The good ol' days weren't always so good and  tomorrow isn't as bad as it seems".  Not quite sure how using modern  training methods or "new and improve" as you put it will net me more money, nor do I know of any TKD school that says we are new and improve...better than the old TKD.  Horse and buggy have been around for centuries, they worked just fine, yet some darn whipper snapper came up with that noisy automijigy thing.
> 
> I like reminiscing about the "good ol' days" just as much as the next person, and I still use methods of training that I was taught when I first started.  However, things evolve even in the realm of SD.  People who trained in SD decades ago would not be training in the same manner today simply because of new research about the mindset of an attacker, mindset of a victim and other factors have come to light.  Sure basics may be the same, but if you are training the same way they did back in the '40's you will most likely have your *** handed to you in the street today.



That's right. I crack up at so-called old school self defense theorist who don't train full contact. One solid punch to the face, the lights go out and all that theory goes out the window.

I like Mike Tyson's quote: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"


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## Manny

RobinTKD said:


> What I love about Taekwondo, is that it allows so much freedom of expression within the art, you can have your own style within the style and still be recognisable as taekwondoin. If that means you teach and learn in an 'Old School' way, then that's good if it works, the same if you take a more modern approach, or a sports approach. There is no right or wrong path as long as your technique is good and you adhere to the principles.
> 
> Manny, as you've been feeling a little bitter about your current class, why not train with your original GM? It sounds like you'd have a great time.



In the past, maybe around 1994-1995 or 1996 I retunre to Jido Kwan Central and trained a couple of weeks before leaving it again, in 2007 I found Hwarang Taekwondo and since then I am part of this dojang. 

Returning again to JDK is a good question, I make myself this question in the past, however I think it will be disloyal leaving my actual dojang/sambonim to returno with the former one, I think I will break my actual sambonim's heart, don't know if you get me, it will be not the same returning JDK, it's dificult to express feelings in a foreing languaje like english.

manny


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## Jaeimseu

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, I hear this put forth quite a bit.  SD seems to be at the bottom of the list, on some people's list.  But I can't help but feel that is intentional.  After all, SD is straight-foward and hard work.  It isn't flashy like sport.  It doesn't keep the kids, or fast-food society adults 'entertained'.  And it certainly doesn't help the instructor...let's see, how did Al put it...'drive his mercedez to the bank'.  And with all the Mcdojangs around touting entertainment disguised as SD, other reasons need to come to the surface for training.  Let's be honest, when one thinks of a hard-core method of SD...TKD isn't on most people's list.  And there is a valid reason it isn't...because 'modern' TKD doesn't use effective SD training methodoloy.
> 
> But it use to have it!  That is my point.  So perhaps we can compromise on our positions;  Old school probably wouldn't do for modern sport training.  But modern doesn't hold a candle to old school as far as SD.
> 
> As an example;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Most 'modern' TKD practitioners would think this down block is used to block an incoming kick or strike.  And that's a shame, because it isn't meant for that at all.



Sorry if you object to me putting self defense last in my list. I didn't mean to imply that self-defense was not a worthy reason to train, merely that it is one of many reasons a person might train. It is my belief that the majority of people training at taekwondo schools these days are not training primarily for self-defense, which could very well affect the perception that taekwondo is not suitable for hard-core self-defense training.

I don't know how sport training stacks up against "traditional" training for self-defense. I do know that sport style training could help someone interested in self-defense hit harder and faster. How can we accurately test if training is "effective" for self-defense, anyway. It seems to be opinions being thrown out as facts, really. I've seen the same sport vs. self-defense debates raging on these MA forums forever. I don't think either side can truly prove its position in the argument. It's like an atheist arguing with a Christian over the existence of God.

I think it's the same with arguing about the original intent of techniques, for example is a low block a low block? You could demonstrate a million different applications for the movement, but I don't believe that anyone really knows what the actual application was, and I really don't know that it matters. I suspect that for the vast majority of people, it doesn't.


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## Manny

mastercole said:


> Who was his Jidokwan teacher?



Here you have it. Back in 1968 if I recall grand master An Dae Sup was brougth to Mexico City to show Karate Koreano (Tae Kwon Do in those years was called Korean karate also), Grand master An teach amoungh others Master Agustin Guerra Melchor and Ramon Alvite Gazca (mi former JDK Master), as I recall Master ramon Alvite came to veracruz back in 1979 and he was the head and representative of Jido kwan Mexico for many years. Most of the Blacks Blets in TKD born and raised in my city came from ramon Alvite Gazca Jido kwan lineage.

Manny


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## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> I like reminiscing about the "good ol' days" just as much as the next person, and I still use methods of training that I was taught when I first started. However, things evolve even in the realm of SD. People who trained in SD decades ago would not be training in the same manner today simply because of new research about the mindset of an attacker, mindset of a victim and other factors have come to light. Sure basics may be the same, but if you are training the same way they did back in the '40's you will most likely have your *** handed to you in the street today.



Sorry Jeremy, that dog doesn't hunt.  WWII combatives, as I've mentioned before, and as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, O'Neill etc is far more effective than modern TKD.  They aren't even in the same zip code.  Same thing can be said of any 'old school' brand of Karate or TKD.  As far as SD goes, modern TKD isn't even close.  They have completely different training methodologies.  

New research as you put it, verifies what 'old school' had already been doing i.e. flinch response, flight or flight, adrenaline dump, loss of dexterity in the extremities under duress, auditory exclusion, O.O.D.A. loop etc.  All of which can be seen in old school training, be it martial arts, D.T. or military training.  And modern training...doesn't address these issues.


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## Jaeimseu

mastercole said:


> That's right. I crack up at so-called old school self defense theorist who don't train full contact. One solid punch to the face, the lights go out and all that theory goes out the window.
> 
> I like Mike Tyson's quote: "Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face"


 Ha, it doesn't have to be a punch to the face, either. I've seen plenty of plans get changed after taking a good round kick to the hogu. Hard contact is a game changer. Too many people don't realize how hard a "sport" tkd guy can hit. Watching a Youtube video and getting kicked are two very different things.


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## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> That's right. I crack up at so-called old school self defense theorist who don't train full contact. One solid punch to the face, the lights go out and all that theory goes out the window.



First off Al, no one mentioned not training full contact.  Training with a referee, safety equipment and a lengthy set of rules in a controlled environment, on a flat, level, dry surface, in full light with no weapons or multiple attackers is NOT full contact training.  Sport 'full contact' training is something instructors who have no knowledge of SD have their students do to give them the illusion their actually getting their monies worth.

But rather than park their egos and learn from their seniors on the SD side of the isle, they stick with smart-alec remarks and one-liners to mask their inexperience and/or unwillingness to learn for the sake of their students.


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## mastercole

Manny said:


> Here you have it. Back in 1968 if I recall grand master An Dae Sup was brougth to Mexico City to show Karate Koreano (Tae Kwon Do in those years was called Korean karate also), Grand master An teach amoungh others Master Agustin Guerra Melchor and Ramon Alvite Gazca (mi former JDK Master), as I recall Master ramon Alvite came to veracruz back in 1979 and he was the head and representative of Jido kwan Mexico for many years. Most of the Blacks Blets in TKD born and raised in my city came from ramon Alvite Gazca Jido kwan lineage.
> 
> Manny



Grandmaster AHN Dae Sup currently teaches the Kukkiwon curriculum at his school in McAllen, TX.  He was also instrumental in developing the modern training methods used for Shihap Kyorugi (Olympic Taekwondo Sparring).  I spoke with him recently in Seoul, Korea where he received an award for doing just that.

If Master Gazca is still practicing and teaching what he learned from GM Ahn back in the 60's, it appears he did not follow GM Ahn or the Jidokwan as both helped develop Taekwondo to where it is today.


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## Kong Soo Do

Jaeimseu said:


> It is my belief that the majority of people training at taekwondo schools these days are not training primarily for self-defense, which could very well affect the perception that taekwondo is not suitable for hard-core self-defense training.



The majority of TKD may not train for SD because the majority of TKD schools don't know what SD training actually is.  That isn't meant to be a slam on anyone.  But judging from the comments I generally see here in the TKD section, there are only a handful of people that understand what SD training methodology is and why sport training is the polar opposite.



> I don't know how sport training stacks up against "traditional" training for self-defense. I do know that sport style training could help someone interested in self-defense hit harder and faster.



I disagree for a plethora of reasons.  



> How can we accurately test if training is "effective" for self-defense, anyway.



What we really need is a member of Martial Talk to chime in that has trained in both venues.  A member that knows the methodology of each venue.  A member that has actually used the martial arts against violent, resisting, determined attackers..oh say a few hundred times successfully.  If only we had a member like that willing to face all the one-liner attacks from the same people in hopes that a few will actually see the point he's trying to make.  If only we had a member like that willing to speak out from experience and not theory.

Oh wait....that's me :ultracool

No I'm not thumping my chest.  No, I'm not special.  No, I'm not bullet proof.  No, I'm not better than anyone else.  But yeah, I've got an opinion and the experience to back it up.  Yeah, I've taught over a thousand high liabilty professionals, many of which now teach, many of which have used what I taught to save themselves or another in violent altercations.  And yeah, I'm willing to take the flack from the peanut gallery in order to stand up for something that can help someone in a crisis situation over something likely to get them hurt or killed.

Now let's have some more jabs and one-liners from the gallery :uhyeah:


----------



## Manny

Okey... I will try to tell you my feelings in english, pardon me if you may understan them or not but believe it's gona be hard to explain myself. When I was a blue belt my jidokwan master opened another dojang this dojan was run by one of his most capable instructors Jorge Morales, this new dojan was near by my home so I moved from Jido kwan Central to Jido kwan Reforma, I was the top student there and I developed a very nice relation with young Jorge Morales I took him like my eldest brother in TKD, Jorge teach me and make me a black belt.

Over the time Jorge broke relationships (working,political and emotional)  with Grand Master Alavite, I never asked Jorge what hapened I only follow him (that was 1992 I guess), Jorge got inside a new dojang/organization that was formed by another Alvite's pupil so I stick with Jorge in the new organization.

Jorge has to emigrate and left my City around 1994-95 at that time I was just married, working and had quit TKD so I returned to Jido Kwan Central but nothing was the same, the relation beetwen G.M. Alvite was very good but not one of my former classmates was there, i was overweight, slow very slow and felt like a dinosaur with the new guys, I pushed myself alot trying to emulate the old days but can't stand the rithm of the working out sessions, blisters,burns, pain,lactid acid made me feel like I was a looser so I quit again.

It was till 2007 that I found the nice dojang I am part off, my new master listen to me, give me advises and took me below his wing and slow but steady put me in better shape and slowly a good relationship began to the point to make me his senior instructor. It was trough Hwarang Organization and head master that I got inside TKD again, right now I have an status inside Hwarang TKD and a very nie relationship with my master, in some ways I took him like my mentor.

I feel if I take some clases with my former master or return to my former organization I can break my actual master heart and I don't want this, even my actual master know that deep in my heart I am a Jido Kwaner and an old school tkd guy.

I am so deep inside my actual organization that i feel I am betraying my master and organization if I leave to return to my old organization/master.

I am still conected to Jido Kwan, I visit my ex master frequently but as a friend and my actual master knows this, and as some one told me NO PUEDES ESTAR CON EL DIABLO Y CON DIOS AL MISMO TIEMPO ASI QUE TOMA UNA DESICION translation.... make a desicion... you can't be with god or the devila at the same time .....

Well sorry for this soup opera and the time I took for you for reading this b..... s...... but you know now something more about me.

Manny


----------



## andyjeffries

Kong Soo Do said:


> Fair enough.  What would you consider as an improvement?



I'll give an easy answer - static stretching.  In the old days we used to spend "long periods" sitting on the floor with our legs in a stretched position, holding it for periods of time.  Then get up feeling achey/sore and not at all ready for the highly dynamic nature of Taekwondo.  There were some people that had good gains from stretching like this and some that saw next to no gains.

Fast forward now to a dynamic warm-up (think Tom Kurz's dynamic stretches or Mark Kovacs book) that leaves people "ready to go" after the warmup and isometric stretches for non-Taekwondo days that are seeing major increases in flexibility even in stiff people.


----------



## mastercole

Jaeimseu said:


> Ha, it doesn't have to be a punch to the face, either. I've seen plenty of plans get changed after taking a good round kick to the hogu. Hard contact is a game changer. Too many people don't realize how hard a "sport" tkd guy can hit. Watching a Youtube video and getting kicked are two very different things.



I have trained in old school and modern training methods and have discovered the modern training methods to be superior. A number of guys from my older days have stopped by and tried training with us, they are stunned at the skill, and as you say, how hard the students can hit.  All a result of superior training methods.


----------



## mastercole

Manny said:


> Okey... I will try to tell you my feelings in english, pardon me if you may understan them or not but believe it's gona be hard to explain myself. When I was a blue belt my jidokwan master opened another dojang this dojan was run by one of his most capable instructors Jorge Morales, this new dojan was near by my home so I moved from Jido kwan Central to Jido kwan Reforma, I was the top student there and I developed a very nice relation with young Jorge Morales I took him like my eldest brother in TKD, Jorge teach me and make me a black belt.
> 
> Over the time Jorge broke relationships (working,political and emotional)  with Grand Master Alavite, I never asked Jorge what hapened I only follow him (that was 1992 I guess), Jorge got inside a new dojang/organization that was formed by another Alvite's pupil so I stick with Jorge in the new organization.
> 
> Jorge has to emigrate and left my City around 1994-95 at that time I was just married, working and had quit TKD so I returned to Jido Kwan Central but nothing was the same, the relation beetwen G.M. Alvite was very good but not one of my former classmates was there, i was overweight, slow very slow and felt like a dinosaur with the new guys, I pushed myself alot trying to emulate the old days but can't stand the rithm of the working out sessions, blisters,burns, pain,lactid acid made me feel like I was a looser so I quit again.
> 
> It was till 2007 that I found the nice dojang I am part off, my new master listen to me, give me advises and took me below his wing and slow but steady put me in better shape and slowly a good relationship began to the point to make me his senior instructor. It was trough Hwarang Organization and head master that I got inside TKD again, right now I have an status inside Hwarang TKD and a very nie relationship with my master, in some ways I took him like my mentor.
> 
> I feel if I take some clases with my former master or return to my former organization I can break my actual master heart and I don't want this, even my actual master know that deep in my heart I am a Jido Kwaner and an old school tkd guy.
> 
> I am so deep inside my actual organization that i feel I am betraying my master and organization if I leave to return to my old organization/master.
> 
> I am still conected to Jido Kwan, I visit my ex master frequently but as a friend and my actual master knows this, and as some one told me NO PUEDES ESTAR CON EL DIABLO Y CON DIOS AL MISMO TIEMPO ASI QUE TOMA UNA DESICION translation.... make a desicion... you can't be with god or the devila at the same time .....
> 
> Well sorry for this soup opera and the time I took for you for reading this b..... s...... but you know now something more about me.
> 
> Manny



But Jidokwan was a key developer of the modern training. Jidokwan does not endorse old methods. To be a part of Jidokwan it to be modern in your approach to Taekwondo.


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> Sorry Jeremy, that dog doesn't hunt.  WWII combatives, as I've mentioned before, and as taught by Fairbairn, Sykes, Applegate, O'Neill etc is far more effective than modern TKD.  They aren't even in the same zip code.  Same thing can be said of any 'old school' brand of Karate or TKD.  As far as SD goes, modern TKD isn't even close.  They have completely different training methodologies.
> 
> New research as you put it, verifies what 'old school' had already been doing i.e. flinch response, flight or flight, adrenaline dump, loss of dexterity in the extremities under duress, auditory exclusion, O.O.D.A. loop etc.  All of which can be seen in old school training, be it martial arts, D.T. or military training.  And modern training...doesn't address these issues.



I'm surprised as a LEO that you do not see the positives of modern training methods.  Are you telling me you use the same method of investigations and firearms training as a LEO that they did 40 or 50 years ago?  I am also not saying that old school training is obsolete, there is a place for it.  However, to discard modern training for the sake of "keeping it real" or one's preconceived notion of "keeping it real" 

And yes while physical aspects of the human body will tend to be the same, but the training in how we deal with them evolves.  Again, I would like to know how you feel your experience in modern TKD training methods have hindered your "old school" training?  What modern TKD training methods did you use specifically, where did you learn them and from who?


----------



## Archtkd

Manny said:


> We chat and chat about olimpic TKD and clasic TKD, about the old good days and today, the nice things we had in the past and it was very refreshing.
> 
> Master Alvite told me he still teaches TKD like he did 30 years ago and I know it's true cause I have visiting him over the years and sat and saw his class, he told me because of politics he quit the State TKD Asociation and even he was a good fighter in his youth and even national champ he does not like the way TKD is been taught this days because it's Olimpic tKD only and TKD is much more than that.
> 
> I had a wonderful time chating with my mentor and it's ggod to know we have strong feelings for each other, he is a gentelman and one of the best TKD men I Know.
> 
> Manny


Manny could you give us a better idea of how and what Master Alvite taught 30 years ago to bring the thread back to track? Give us specifics. What are we really talking about? Basics, conditioning, poomsae, self defense, philosophy, etc?  You mention Master Alvite was a competitor in his youth? What type of competitions did he participate in?


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> The majority of TKD may not train for SD because the majority of TKD schools don't know what SD training actually is.  That isn't meant to be a slam on anyone.  But judging from the comments I generally see here in the TKD section, there are only a handful of people that understand what SD training methodology is and why sport training is the polar opposite.


You are basing this opinion on what?  The majority of the TKD schools in America, the world or the few that you have visited?  You are then judging an entire art based on a internet message board?  Yes, there are TKD schools, well martial art schools in general, that have no clue about SD.  They base their training off of simple theoretical scenarios about how a person may or may not come at you.  However, to post that the "majority" do not know, based on a limited exposure to TKD schools does a deservice.  At best I would have put "The majority of the TKD schools I have encountered and trained in have shown me that they do not know about real SD"...whatever real SD would means to you.




> What we really need is a member of Martial Talk to chime in that has trained in both venues.  A member that knows the methodology of each venue.  A member that has actually used the martial arts against violent, resisting, determined attackers..oh say a few hundred times successfully.  If only we had a member like that willing to face all the one-liner attacks from the same people in hopes that a few will actually see the point he's trying to make.  If only we had a member like that willing to speak out from experience and not theory.
> 
> Oh wait....that's me :ultracool
> 
> No I'm not thumping my chest.  No, I'm not special.  No, I'm not bullet proof.  No, I'm not better than anyone else.  But yeah, I've got an opinion and the experience to back it up.  Yeah, I've taught over a thousand high liabilty professionals, many of which now teach, many of which have used what I taught to save themselves or another in violent altercations.  And yeah, I'm willing to take the flack from the peanut gallery in order to stand up for something that can help someone in a crisis situation over something likely to get them hurt or killed.
> 
> Now let's have some more jabs and one-liners from the gallery :uhyeah:


I would almost take that seriously if you could start explaining your in-depth knowledge and exposure to modern TKD training methods.  Who did you train with and for how long?   What did you see as a hindrance to "real SD" training?  Why do you feel that modern training is no good for SD support?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> I'm surprised as a LEO that you do not see the positives of modern training methods. Are you telling me you use the same method of investigations and firearms training as a LEO that they did 40 or 50 years ago?



You're using one thing to prove another Jeremy.  Please don't do that.  Some aspects of 'modern' training can be fully functional.  But sport/SD TKD has nothing to do with law enforcement firearms or investigations training.  



> Again, I would like to know how you feel your experience in modern TKD training methods have hindered your "old school" training? What modern TKD training methods did you use specifically, where did you learn them and from who?



Okay, let's take a look at this.  I'm going to repost from last year so I don't have to retype;




> For the purposes of this thread we can define self-defense as the strategies, principles, tactics and techniques to defend oneself and/or loved ones from and attack which can cause bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death.
> 
> To begin with, most types of sport traing/competions revolve around some/most/all of the following considerations (be they TKD specific or a more general MMA).
> 
> 
> Has a referee that enforces rules that both parties are required to abide by for the match.
> The match is in a well-lit, dry, level, soft venue.
> The opponent is unarmed.
> The opponent is alone with no chance others will join in.
> Some sort of safety gear is usually involved i.e. cup, mouth piece, gloves etc.
> The opponent isn't trying to kill, maim or severely injure you.
> You get a break in-between rounds to catch your breath, get a drink, get some advice or a pep talk.
> If you've had enough, you can call a time out or tap out or simply quit and walk away.
> There is often an incentive or reward for competing and/or winning such as rank advancement, a prize or maybe cash.
> 
> 
> As a comparison, self-defense training is for situations;
> 
> 
> 
> Situational awareness i.e. be aware of your surroundings.
> Factors such as avoidance, evasion, escape and de-escalation need to be taken into consideration and trained for where appropriate.
> Where there is no referee enforcing rules.
> You are likely alone and/or at some sort of a place or position of disadvantage.
> There are no rules.
> There are no breaks, water, advice or anything to assist you.
> The assault can occur in a parking lot, elevator, side street, your car, your bedroom, in the woods etc. It will likely occur in dim light conditions in any type of weather.
> The attacker may be armed, and should be assumed to be armed.
> The attacker may have friends more than willing to jump in.
> There is no safety gear, but likely a plethora of person-unfriendly objects like broken glass, traffic, walls etc.
> The attacker is looking to cause as much damage to you as humanly possible in the shortest amount of time possible.
> To quit is to die (or something possibly worse i.e. rape, love one killed etc)
> The goal is survival, the method is whatever it takes and is appropriate to the situation.
> 
> 
> When looking at the difference in training methodologies, consider for the student and scenario;
> 
> 
> 
> Do they always 'go for the knock-out', for points, for a submission? Is so, they've limited there response options.
> Do they have the option and/or opportunity to avoid or evade the potential conflice. Or escape or practice an verbal de-escalation skills?
> Do they have the option of using an improvised weapon?
> Does there opponent have the option of pulling a weapon (planned or improvised)?
> Does there opponent have the option of having his buddies jump in to help?
> Is the student required to observe certain rules?
> Do your students always train inside the Dojang? Are opportunities provided to train inside a vehicle, stairs, elevator, hallway, small room, on grass, on asphalt, on a sloping or wet or slippery surface?
> Do your students always where their uniform? Are they familar with what it would be like to be wearing tight clothing, foot wear, shorts and a T-shirt, a dress etc? Tt is one thing to be warmed up and stretched out and wearing loose clothing in the Dojang. It is quite another to try it in a dress in high heels, a pair of tight jeans, with a handful of groceries, a duty belt etc when you're not warmed up and stretched out.
> Have they ever trained in dim light conditions?
> Have they trained with visual/auditory distractions?
> Do we always use a closed fist when striking at the head while wearing gloves and padded helmets? A blow to the head with a fist in a SD situation may not be the wisest tactic. The chance of injuring the hand on someones head is fairly substantial even with a well-placed strike. That is why boxer as an example tape their hands and wear gloves. I'll say it again; the chance of injuring your hand on someone's head/face is fairly substantial. If this occurs, depending on the severity of the injury, it could very well limit your options for further SD. Anyone here ever try to manipulate a weapon with broken knuckles? Or a cell phone, or car keys? I've broken a knuckle before and my range of motion in that hand was limited for an extended period of time. Given that manual dexterity is already limited while under duress, you've just made it even harder by busting a knuckle or two, or spraining your wrist on someone's face. And there is no way to know ahead of time whether or not he'll actually be knocked out.
> 
> This also doesn't touch on the possibility of blood borne pathogens the bad guy may be carrying. And now you've put yourself in a position of cutting your knuckles on his teeth or 'bleeding' him from the mouth or nose.
> 
> 
> Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the state statutes of force and deadly force? In consideration like bodily harm, great bodily harm and/or death? Subject factors? What a reasonable person would do in the same situation? Are you required to retreat in your state? Does your state have a 'Castle Doctrine'? An instructor doesn't need to be an attorney, but providing the resources for the student to check into it and touching on some of the topics during class time.
> 
> Is the student (or the instructor) well versed in the O.O.D.A. loop? Fight or flight? Flinch resonse? Adrenaline responses such as tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, loss of manual dexterity in the extremities? Considerations can include;
> 
> 
> 
> Even powerful strikes in non-lethal areas can fail.
> A situation which starts out at less-than-lethal levels can quickly escalate.
> A proper joint lock, at the appropriate time, 'can' immobilize even an EDP (emotionally disturbed person) even if strikes fail and if properly applied.
> Be as patient as possible for the situation, look for openings.
> The attack will probably take place at the most advantageous time to the attacker and the least advantageous to us. We may be tired, sick, distracted etc yet still be forced into a situation.
> Some of these predators come in packs which backs them bold. And even being physically big isn't always a deterent.
> 
> 
> Physical conditioning is also helpful during training, or at least encouraging it. Being physically fit can help us in several areas of a SD situation. It can also help if an injury has been sustained.
> 
> That is hopefully a good start for consideration/discussion. Be safe.




Take a look at what I've written, with an open mind and with the understanding of the perspective I'm coming from.  From there we can disect the list(s) and compare.  Thank you.


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> You're using one thing to prove another Jeremy.  Please don't do that.  Some aspects of 'modern' training can be fully functional.  But sport/SD TKD has nothing to do with law enforcement firearms or investigations training.


The situation is different but the concept is the same.  The type of training methods you used as a LEO have evolved to where old school methods, while possibly still effective, have been rendered obsolete in some aspects. LEO's have found more modern training methods to help them deal with a more modern world and the dangers and challenges that it carries.  This the same when training in TKD.  We have evolved the type of training to build better eye hand coordination, reflex speed, etc.


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> Take a look at what I've written, with an open mind and with the understanding of the perspective I'm coming from.  From there we can disect the list(s) and compare.  Thank you.


I do understand where you are coming from.  However, even "old school" training did not train in the methodology that you are speaking about here.  While there are reality based systems such Krav-Maga or Systema and even RMCAT, and I respect them and enjoy training in systems similar to them, they are still in a controlled environment.  In other words I can step into any of these training seminars or schools and know that I do not have to fear getting any serious life threatening situation.  Please explain how modern training methods in TKD hinders the development of this type of SD training.  Please explain how "old school" training is better.  If you could explain using information based on your own experience in modern training methods of TKD, including amount of time trained and who by, that would really help me understand your position a lot more.

As for a instructor that is well versed in the law, they exist in TKD and other traditional martial arts as well.  There are many LEO's that are instructors.  I personally have a junior who is an FBI agent who trains our adults.


----------



## Gemini

Kong Soo Do said:


> What we really need is a member of Martial Talk to chime in that has trained in both venues.  A member that knows the methodology of each venue.


I have trained in both and have absolutely no problem with agreeing with what you're saying. It seems to me though that responses are still combining modern training methods vs. older traditional methods, with focused/specific training vs. an a wider curriculum. Or maybe I'm the only one confused.    



Kong Soo Do said:


> Take a look at what I've written, with an open mind and with the understanding of the perspective I'm coming from.


 Unfortunately, people don't generally do this and read only what they want to read. I just don't have a desire to participate in what will no doubt turn into another "Which is better, SD Taekwondo vs Sparring Taekwondo" thread.


----------



## miguksaram

Gemini said:


> I have trained in both and have absolutely no problem with agreeing with what you're saying. It seems to me though that responses are still combining modern training methods vs. older traditional methods, with focused/specific training vs. an a wider curriculum. Or maybe I'm the only one confused.


I have trained in both as well, which is why I keep asking how modern training methods hinders SD practice.



> Unfortunately, people don't generally do this and read only what they want to read. I just don't have a desire to participate in what will no doubt turn into another "Which is better, SD Taekwondo vs Sparring Taekwondo" thread.


I agree especially since I do not believe SD TKD vs Sparring/Sport TKD....TKD is TKD with different avenues to it.


----------



## mastercole

miguksaram said:


> You are basing this opinion on what?  The majority of the TKD schools in America, the world or the few that you have visited?  You are then judging an entire art based on a internet message board?  Yes, there are TKD schools, well martial art schools in general, that have no clue about SD.  They base their training off of simple theoretical scenarios about how a person may or may not come at you.  However, to post that the "majority" do not know, based on a limited exposure to TKD schools does a deservice.  At best I would have put "The majority of the TKD schools I have encountered and trained in have shown me that they do not know about real SD"...whatever real SD would means to you.



I have visited, and trained in Kukkiwon Taekwondo schools in the majority of states in the US. Also visited and trained at schools Mexico, Korea, and Europe. Simply take the Cleveland area, there are about 20 Kukkiwon schools within an hours drive of me. Ohio has about 5 major cities with roughly the same amount of schools. Roughly 100+ in the state. Times 50 states, 5,000+ Kukkiwon schools just in the USA. At the schools I visited, most were into full contact training methods. That's real self defense. I did not see an fake scenario/situation/survival training going on, just hard training and hard hitting. Of course one would have to have actually trained in modern methods to know that.



miguksaram said:


> I would almost take that seriously if you could start explaining your in-depth knowledge and exposure to modern TKD training methods.  Who did you train with and for how long?   What did you see as a hindrance to "real SD" training?  Why do you feel that modern training is no good for SD support?



Guess that won't be forth coming


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> The situation is different but the concept is the same. The type of training methods you used as a LEO have evolved to where old school methods, while possibly still effective, have been rendered obsolete in some aspects. LEO's have found more modern training methods to help them deal with a more modern world and the dangers and challenges that it carries. This the same when training in TKD. We have evolved the type of training to build better eye hand coordination, reflex speed, etc.



It isn't the same Jeremy.  Often times it is a matter of equipment changes.  As an example, when I first started I had a six-shoot S&W .38 Special and NO speed loaders.  Now I have a Glock 21 .45ACP and two spare mags, a Taser, O.C. spray etc.  Training had to change as the equipment changed.  OTOH, H2H training from an old school perspective already contained many/most of the elements some consider 'modern' which I've described above.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> Please explain how modern training methods in TKD hinders the development of this type of SD training. Please explain how "old school" training is better.



Alright, let's take a look at some of the training.  Let me ask you about the sparring that is performed in your school.  Could you tell me what it is like?  How does it start, how does it end?  What is the rule set?  What do they wear?  Please put anything in that you feel is important as well.  This isn't to put you on the spot, from there we can make a comparison.  Thank you.


----------



## mastercole

Gemini said:


> I have trained in both and have absolutely no problem with agreeing with what you're saying. It seems to me though that responses are still combining modern training methods vs. older traditional methods, with focused/specific training vs. an a wider curriculum. Or maybe I'm the only one confused.



I am of the opinion that is someone is not training on the in-ground talyunbong (Makiwara), they are not training old school Taekwondo. I started training in the 1960's, it was all old school. And I did not learn from a book or black belt magazine    Today, I still train on the talyunbong.  That is as old school as you can get, and I say, that modern training methods are superior. I have been to Korea (many, many times), training with the original old school great grandmasters, who developed Taekwondo. Most now near 90 years old. They say modern methods are superior to what they trained back in the old days.  What more does one need to know?



Gemini said:


> Unfortunately, people don't generally do this and read only what they want to read. I just don't have a desire to participate in what will no doubt turn into another "Which is better, SD Taekwondo vs Sparring Taekwondo" thread.



My whole life was one big street self defense lesson and not as a LEO who can carry a stick, taser, gun, mace and is backed up by other LEO's and the law, but as a civilian who was running the streets of one of Americans most dangerous cities, in the most dangerous sections, and involved in dangerous violent conflict on a regular basis.  99% of self defense is street smarts. The kind you get from growing up in the streets. No one can teach you that, especially a LEO.  A good solid martial arts training program is only about 1% of self defense, and to qualify for that, it has to be a modern training program that is based in full contact training. 

Of course a person would have to actually experience real, violent self defense situations as a civilian, and actually trained in full contact to even begin to understand that. Otherwise they will just try to throw out a bunch of jargon and argument to support their flawed position.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Gemini said:


> Unfortunately, people don't generally do this and read only what they want to read.



I know.  I'm doing this because at some point, someone might read this thread and understand the information I've offered and the difference.  I think it's worth the hassle.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Wow. I wake up this morning and we are into page 4 or 5. Kong soo do, you make way too much sense. Be careful feeding the usual trolls though


----------



## GlassJaw

miguksaram said:


> Yes, there are TKD schools, well martial art schools in general, that have no clue about SD.



I have heard that such schools exist--and I don't for a moment doubt it.  Perhaps I have been fortunate not to have encountered any myself.

It is hard to ignore that TKD is an art developed from/for the structured training in fighting techniques. (This is probably true of all "martial arts"--since that is arguably the definition of the term.)  Most martial arts do stray from an SD focus, but few lose that connection altogether (Tai Chi and Capoeira are possibly examples of that).  Even so, every student knows what it was originally developed for.

The SD training that I have seen in schools usually does, indeed, begin with the slow, form-focused learning/practice of specific techniques (one-step sparring is an example).  What varies is the degree to which this is followed by full-speed, no-time-to-think, react-or-get-beaten applications training.

I liken Olympic-style TKD sparring to Olympic fencing.  Fencing is a game, the object of which (poking the tiny scoring zone) has little to do with the object or conditions of a real sword fight (slicing the heck out of an opponent).  No sharpened edges; only the tip counts.  Likewise, the object of WTF sparring has little to do with that of street brawling.  No knees or elbows; only the feet really count. They are games developed from the martial art training.  Indeed, they are, themselves, martial art training exercises.  But such games are not the martial art itself.  And TKD sparring is not TKD, merely a part of it.

As to schools changing with the times. . .despite having some ancient roots, the martial arts as we know them are modern.  TKD included.  It is still young and is still evolving.  (Granted, that by no means insures that it continues to improve as it evolves, just that we should recognize that it is not static.)


----------



## GlassJaw

Manny said:


> I am still conected to Jido Kwan, I visit my ex master frequently but as a friend and my actual master knows this, and as some one told me NO PUEDES ESTAR CON EL DIABLO Y CON DIOS AL MISMO TIEMPO ASI QUE TOMA UNA DESICION translation.... make a desicion... you can't be with god or the devila at the same time .....



There is no devil in this.  You respect both masters.  

Your current master has invested much into you. (And vice versa, I'm sure.) He probably relies on you.
(And vice versa, I'm sure.)  Abandoning him is, of course, not something you should do lightly--that would, indeed, be disloyal (and also disrespectful of your relationship).  

Perhaps you owe it to him to explain your situation.  He already knows you still have great respect for your first master.  Explain how you feel that returning to Master Alvite would just be a better fit for the direction you wish to grow.  Give him a chance to address it.  If he can understand your situation, either things will improve where you are or you will be able to let him down easier if you then decide to move on.  For that matter, you may wish to seek Master Alvite's advice on it, too.

Your choice is not between two masters, it is between being loyal to one and being true to yourself.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

ralphmcpherson said:


> Wow. I wake up this morning and we are into page 4 or 5. Kong soo do, you make way too much sense. Be careful feeding the usual trolls though



Yeah I know :uhyeah:

Drives up the sale of popcorn though opcorn:


----------



## Gemini

puunui said:


> How about you? Are you a KKW certified master who has taught KKW classes and has attended and judged KKW competitions? Have you competed at a KKW competition, and if so, have you won any trophies? What exactly is your experience with the modern competition training methods such that you can intelligently speak of about its ineffectiveness in preparing students for self defense situations?


Actually since I can answer yes to all of the above (except I've only won medals, not trophies ), I'll inject something.

Your question above states "competition" training. I don't remember this being a specific discussion for the topic. For the sake of responding though, I would most certainly argue that while competition training does in fact, provide a higher quality of training in some aspects, it also offers some disadvantages in others. It's for this very reason that I incorporate sparring in my training curriculum, but don't limit it. To keep it simple, I'll point out what I feel is the obvious. 

Taekwondo offers techniques that are not allowed in competition, right? If your training involves only sparring techniques, then you're not practicing other techniques, such as knee/elbow strikes, submissions, etc. Most SD practitioners I know are equally effective with their hands as well as they are with their feet. Additionally, fighting from a lock as well as on the ground, both offensively and defensively. They have a very large comfort zone and can apply effective technique in a wide range of scenarios.

I'm a strong believer that sparring increases student understanding of their physical capabilities. I believe a student that practices sparring is going to achieve a higher understanding of capability including situation awareness, body language, range, timing and power to name a few. However, practicing in only a controlled environment, focusing primarily on kicks, inherent disadvantages include limited ability to properly execute a wider array of techniques that are not part of a sparring curriculum. While you can argue this point all day long, the fact remains that I (personal experience) have never met a practitioner that can excel at both just as I have never heard of a competitor that competes and medals in Sparring and forms at the highest levels. 

In other words, a sparring practitioner can defend himself and a self defense practitioner can compete. But if you're going to relay on the SD practitioner to medal and the sparring practitioner to defend you, you're playing against the odds. Train for whichever meets your needs, and be realistic in your expectations. This is true with anything. If you're going to specialize in something, it's going to come at the expense of something else.

Back to Manny's OP, his sabumnim was not ready to do that.


----------



## puunui

Gemini said:


> In other words, a sparring practitioner can defend himself and a self defense practitioner can compete. But if you're going to relay on the SD practitioner to medal and the sparring practitioner to defend you, you're playing against the odds. Train for whichever meets your needs, and be realistic in your expectations. This is true with anything. If you're going to specialize in something, it's going to come at the expense of something else..



I will take the full contact competitor over the self defense focused guy ten times out of ten. Full contact competitor (which is what we train for in the modern training methods) trains to go all out and hit full force, something that self defense expert peyton quinn advocates is one of the most important aspects of self defense training. If you go to one of his camps, a large portion is devoted to defending against the bullet man, striking the bullet man as hard as you can. peyton is an advocate of high adrenaline full contact training.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Gemini said:


> Actually since I can answer yes to all of the above (except I've only won medals, not trophies ), I'll inject something.
> 
> Your question above states "competition" training. I don't remember this being a specific discussion for the topic. For the sake of responding though, I would most certainly argue that while competition training does in fact, provide a higher quality of training in some aspects, it also offers some disadvantages in others. It's for this very reason that I incorporate sparring in my training curriculum, but don't limit it. To keep it simple, I'll point out what I feel is the obvious.
> 
> Taekwondo offers techniques that are not allowed in competition, right? If your training involves only sparring techniques, then you're not practicing other techniques, such as knee/elbow strikes, submissions, etc. Most SD practitioners I know are equally effective with their hands as well as they are with their feet. Additionally, fighting from a lock as well as on the ground, both offensively and defensively. They have a very large comfort zone and can apply effective technique in a wide range of scenarios.
> 
> I'm a strong believer that sparring increases student understanding of their physical capabilities. I believe a student that practices sparring is going to achieve a higher understanding of capability including situation awareness, body language, range, timing and power to name a few. However, practicing in only a controlled environment, focusing primarily on kicks, inherent disadvantages include limited ability to properly execute a wider array of techniques that are not part of a sparring curriculum. While you can argue this point all day long, the fact remains that I (personal experience) have never met a practitioner that can excel at both just as I have never heard of a competitor that competes and medals in Sparring and forms at the highest levels.
> 
> In other words, a sparring practitioner can defend himself and a self defense practitioner can compete. But if you're going to relay on the SD practitioner to medal and the sparring practitioner to defend you, you're playing against the odds. Train for whichever meets your needs, and be realistic in your expectations. This is true with anything. If you're going to specialize in something, it's going to come at the expense of something else.
> 
> Back to Manny's OP, his sabumnim was not ready to do that.



Excellent post.  To take this a step further, in regards to sparring;  


Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation skills can be attempted and practiced?
Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?
Do either have the option and/or ability to use improvised weapons?
Can either attempt to use cover and/or concealment?
Can several of the opposition have 'friends' join the conflict so that multiple opponents are now in the equation?
Is the same footwear always worn?
Are both parties required to abide by the same rules?
Any chance of going to the ground?
Any chance the 'good guy' can do a gross motor skill 'stun and run'?
Do they spar in all lighting conditions, including dim light conditions?
Do they always spar on a dry, level surface or are slopes and alternative surfaces utilized like the parking lot, grass etc?
Is a uniform and/or belt always worn, or regular street clothes.
Is the sparring session begun at a pre-arranged time or is one party completely surprised (read typical ambush)?
If a mistake is made, or a strike connects do the opponents continue or do they reset their positions and start again.
Are they always started in a standing position, facing each other?  Or can one be on the ground at a postiton of disadvantage at the start?
Do they always train inside the school or can they train out in the parking lot between a couple of parked cars, a ditch, an elevator, a stairway, an alley etc?

These are just some of the considerations that may separate the two methodologies.  This is what I'm talking about and that old school, in my experience (and not just TKD) addresses.


----------



## mastercole

Gemini said:


> Actually since I can answer yes to all of the above (except I've only won medals, not trophies ), I'll inject something.
> 
> Your question above states "competition" training. I don't remember this being a specific discussion for the topic. For the sake of responding though, I would most certainly argue that while competition training does in fact, provide a higher quality of training in some aspects, it also offers some disadvantages in others. It's for this very reason that I incorporate sparring in my training curriculum, but don't limit it. To keep it simple, I'll point out what I feel is the obvious.
> 
> Taekwondo offers techniques that are not allowed in competition, right? If your training involves only sparring techniques, then you're not practicing other techniques, such as knee/elbow strikes, submissions, etc. Most SD practitioners I know are equally effective with their hands as well as they are with their feet. Additionally, fighting from a lock as well as on the ground, both offensively and defensively. They have a very large comfort zone and can apply effective technique in a wide range of scenarios.
> 
> I'm a strong believer that sparring increases student understanding of their physical capabilities. I believe a student that practices sparring is going to achieve a higher understanding of capability including situation awareness, body language, range, timing and power to name a few. However, practicing in only a controlled environment, focusing primarily on kicks, inherent disadvantages include limited ability to properly execute a wider array of techniques that are not part of a sparring curriculum. While you can argue this point all day long, the fact remains that I (personal experience) have never met a practitioner that can excel at both just as I have never heard of a competitor that competes and medals in Sparring and forms at the highest levels.
> 
> In other words, a sparring practitioner can defend himself and a self defense practitioner can compete. But if you're going to relay on the SD practitioner to medal and the sparring practitioner to defend you, you're playing against the odds. Train for whichever meets your needs, and be realistic in your expectations. This is true with anything. If you're going to specialize in something, it's going to come at the expense of something else.
> 
> Back to Manny's OP, his sabumnim was not ready to do that.



I think you mean you competed in WTF events, not Kukkiwon events.

Taekwondo has 17 types of sparring and they all have a value in self defense, that covers a lot. However, those 17 types of sparring would be depleted and no where near as effective without #17, which is the only type of Taekwondo sparring that allows for full contact training.


----------



## mastercole

Old school/...... funny thing.

GM LEE Kyo Yoon, founder and still President of Han Moo Kwan said that any of the old curriculum of Han Moo Kwan was deficient compared to curriculum of today, which GM Lee helped develop. He said that Taekwondo improved so fast that there never was a set standard for a Han Moo Kwan system.  So whoever is saying they are teaching the old system of Han Moo Kwan is wrong, according the the founder of Han Moo Kwan.


----------



## Gemini

puunui said:


> I will take the full contact competitor over the self defense focused guy ten times out of ten. Full contact competitor (which is what we train for in the modern training methods) trains to go all out and hit full force


This is the second time I've read that, but having followed the whole thread, I haven't seen anyone, regardless of position, dispute the full contact issue. Regardless, having been both guys, I'd rather face the competitor any day. The guy I will never want to face is the guy who does both. That's why I teach that way.  



puunui said:


> something that self defense expert peyton quinn advocates is one of the most important aspects of self defense training. If you go to one of his camps, a large portion is devoted to defending against the bullet man, striking the bullet man as hard as you can. peyton is an advocate of high adrenaline full contact training.


I don't know Peyton Quinn, but I like his thinking based on what you've stated.


----------



## MJS

*Admin Note:

There are a number of threads that have been brought to our attention.  Lets return to the topic and stop the hot pursuit of various members.  This topic isn't about a particular member.  

MJS
MT Asst. Admin*


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*Thread Locked Pending Review*


----------



## Manny

My post was closed, it seems it went wrong and I didin't want it to be that way, so sorry folks, please acept my apologies. Well somebody asked how is the class in JDK headquarters in my city. Well the class is very rounded, it has nice warm up/stretching/conditioning in the begining and it does not FOCUS ONLY in kicking drills, JDK teaches basics and advanced techs,one steps and three steps, ho-sin-sul,poomsae and kyorugi in a regular basis not only one week before the kups tests.

The average class I have seen in other dojangs (sport oriented) is good cardio for sure and mostly kicking drills and sparring (WTF), very few self defense techs, etc,etc.

I am not a sport TKD guy, I do TKD because I love the martial side of it, when I was teen I do competition, maybe I went to no more than 8 tornaments most of them as a red belt and all consited of local tournaments, I won some medals and I lost many fights but competition was not the driving force that keep me learning and practicing TKD.

I love the old way and the old methods, simply as that, maybe I am too square and maybe I am too old to change or become a super duper TKD man like Steven Lopez, or maybe because I've never succeded in TKD competition.

here in this forum thare are many sambonims that feel the new methods are better and TKD is better today than ever, and there are a small group of old f.....rts that love the way TKD was a few decades ago. Something that drove out of TKD in the 90's was all the efforts to do TKD an olimpic sport, the trainings become oriented to the olimpics and slowly things changed the way I don't liked it.

The above is my way of thinking, I won't change my feelings, I will keep trying to teach the way I like and that's all folks, a medal or a trophy never represented too much.

Manny


----------



## chrispillertkd

Manny said:


> My post was closed, it seems it went wrong and I didin't want it to be that way, so sorry folks, please acept my apologies.



 Why apologize for something you didn't do?

Pax,

Chris


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Its not your fault manny. The thread was obviously closed because of the same two people responsible for every closed thread. I really think its time that the tkd section was split in two. One section for those wishing to discuss sports tkd and another for those wishing to discuss sd/old school tkd. Keep those two away from the old school discussions and everyone will be happy. I started coming here 3 years ago and I can barely remeber a closed thread or people crossing the line or "investigating" other users. These two joined and its never been the same since.


----------



## Manny

Ok here you have a videoclip I found in youtube even this is a ITF clip I think it shows what I like of the old days, in this clip you will see TKF drom the 70's till 2006 if I recall, you will see one stpes, hoshisul,kyumpa and even kyorugi in fact the kyorugi you will see in this vid is the one I like the most and it's not Olimpic/WTF style please see the clip it's about 30 minutes but it has nice music too and let me know what you think about.






Manny


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Nice vid Manny, thanks.


----------



## MJS

Manny,

It was not your fault the thread was closed.  Some posts were removed and we'll be reading thru the thread again to see if there was anything we missed.  Most likely by tomorrow, it'll be reopened.


----------



## Manny

Here you have guys a clip that shows modern TKD kicks,combos  and footwork, this is for me sport TKD and this is the TKD I can not do, because of age,because of time, etc.

This kicking drills are awesome for sure and yes a good kicker like the ones that plays in the vid can kick bad *** too and for sure thay can end with a street fight in a dark alley but to achieve this kind of level the student has to train very hard and focus in sport TKD, I mean this is the type of training olimpic Mexican fighters do, the ones that are part of the Mexican TKD team.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Z7AJ5seXpVU&NR=1

Manny


----------



## Manny

MJS said:


> Manny,
> 
> It was not your fault the thread was closed. Some posts were removed and we'll be reading thru the thread again to see if there was anything we missed. Most likely by tomorrow, it'll be reopened.



I think the point was made, we don't need to go on on endless discusions, don't you think, let's talk about tkd, the old one and the new one, some techs and have a nice chat too.

manny


----------



## MJS

Manny said:


> I think the point was made, we don't need to go on on endless discusions, don't you think, let's talk about tkd, the old one and the new one, some techs and have a nice chat too.
> 
> manny



Yes sir, I agree with that.  Sadly, some can't do that.  Like I said, your thread will most likely be reopened.  Minus the off topic garbage, it seems like a good thread.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Manny said:


> Here you have guys a clip that shows modern TKD kicks,combos  and footwork, this is for me sport TKD and this is the TKD I can not do, because of age,because of time, etc.
> 
> This kicking drills are awesome for sure and yes a good kicker like the ones that plays in the vid can kick bad *** too and for sure thay can end with a street fight in a dark alley but to achieve this kind of level the student has to train very hard and focus in sport TKD, I mean this is the type of training olimpic Mexican fighters do, the ones that are part of the Mexican TKD team.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&v=Z7AJ5seXpVU&NR=1
> 
> Manny


I have never doubted the skills of an elite sports tkdist Manny, I certainly wouldnt want to come up agaist one in a dark alley, thats for sure. I also wouldnt want to come up against an elite capoiera practitioner or an elite rugby player in a dark alley either. The problem is, a very very small percentage of sports tkdists are elite.


----------



## Manny

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have never doubted the skills of an elite sports tkdist Manny, I certainly wouldnt want to come up agaist one in a dark alley, thats for sure. I also wouldnt want to come up against an elite capoiera practitioner or an elite rugby player in a dark alley either. The problem is, a very very small percentage of sports tkdists are elite.



Yeah I am only one mortal not blessed by the gods of speed,acuracy,power and balance, I'm just a regular guy who does TKD because love it. I like to see TKD matches like the one in the olimpics cause it's a a nice game, I am starting to lyke the UFC and MMA even I think sometimes it's just so brutal, in the past and even now I enjoy a lot fullcontact matches you know like the ones of the past with guys like Super Foot, Don Wilson, Brad Hefton and all thet guys.

I can remember when I was a teen in high school some guys who took karate lessons got togheter to do some kind of full contact bouts in backyards, I was invited once but declined because no one know the rules set and I always think that if you want to match another guy in a sport way it's better to that in a dojo/dojang below the eye of an experinced sensei or sambonim.

Manny


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Manny said:


> Yeah I am only one mortal not blessed by the gods of speed,acuracy,power and balance, I'm just a regular guy who does TKD because love it. I like to see TKD matches like the one in the olimpics cause it's a a nice game, I am starting to lyke the UFC and MMA even I think sometimes it's just so brutal, in the past and even now I enjoy a lot fullcontact matches you know like the ones of the past with guys like Super Foot, Don Wilson, Brad Hefton and all thet guys.
> 
> I can remember when I was a teen in high school some guys who took karate lessons got togheter to do some kind of full contact bouts in backyards, I was invited once but declined because no one know the rules set and I always think that if you want to match another guy in a sport way it's better to that in a dojo/dojang below the eye of an experinced sensei or sambonim.
> 
> Manny


Yeah I have to agree Manny. When I was in highschool we had the "zendokai guys" and they would get together on a saturday in a backyard and have full contact fighting matches, real full contact, face punching, knees, elbows, basically anything. I was a shotokan guy and always fought under strict rulesets in a supervised setting and was not stupid enough to go along and fight. Many guys (from arts other than zendokai) did try their luck though, and it never ended well for them. This is where I first realised that "sports" fighting and "less restrictive" fighting are two very different beasts. Like you though, I have come to enjoy MMA/UFC but the ground game bores me to tears. Usually when the fight goes to the ground, I wander off and get a beer and come back when they are on their feet again.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Manny said:


> Ok here you have a videoclip I found in youtube even this is a ITF clip I think it shows what I like of the old days, in this clip you will see TKF drom the 70's till 2006 if I recall, you will see one stpes, hoshisul,kyumpa and even kyorugi in fact the kyorugi you will see in this vid is the one I like the most and it's not Olimpic/WTF style please see the clip it's about 30 minutes but it has nice music too and let me know what you think about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manny



Nice video, Manny. Master McPhail is a very impressive Taekwon-Do technician and I remember seeing Mr. Pellow test for IV dan back in 1993. His ho sin sul was pretty cool. Dangerous man.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## chrispillertkd

MJS said:


> Yes sir, I agree with that. Sadly, some can't do that. Like I said, your thread will most likely be reopened. Minus the off topic garbage, it seems like a good thread.



Until the next time.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hey Manny, saw that the thread was closed and sorry that it happened.  Like MJS, I thought it was a good thread overall and you know it was my intention to add what I could.  We've talked off board about this and you know where I'm coming from.  But Chris makes a good point, "Until the next time".  I don't want to be a part of that.  Like others, I would like to post my opinions without the same two people doing the same things over and over.  There needs to be some give and take, but it is either their way or no way.  I'm just tired and rambling so just wanted to say sorry it got off track and hopefully it can be continued in a better way.

And hey, be safe down there partner.  We think of you often.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

ralphmcpherson said:


> I have never doubted the skills of an elite sports tkdist Manny, I certainly wouldnt want to come up agaist one in a dark alley, thats for sure. I also wouldnt want to come up against an elite capoiera practitioner or an elite rugby player in a dark alley either. The problem is, a very very small percentage of sports tkdists are elite.



Man you're not kidding about those rugby players!


----------



## Earl Weiss

Manny said:


> Ok here you have a videoclip I found in youtube even this is a ITF clip I think it shows what I like of the old days, in this clip you will see TKF drom the 70's till 2006 if I recall, you will see one stpes, hoshisul,kyumpa and even kyorugi in fact the kyorugi you will see in this vid is the one I like the most and it's not Olimpic/WTF style please see the clip it's about 30 minutes but it has nice music too and let me know what you think about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Manny



FWIW I am acquainted with Master McPhail. We trained together at some events, one of which was the 1993 camp which is part of the video. Good guy, good athlete. In fact I joked that on those rare occasions he had difficulty performing some techhnique, i didn't feel bad if I had trouble as well.


----------



## Earl Weiss

chrispillertkd said:


> Nice video, Manny. Master McPhail is a very impressive Taekwon-Do technician and I remember seeing Mr. Pellow test for IV dan back in 1993. His ho sin sul was pretty cool. Dangerous man.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



Sir, 

Your memory is much better than mine. (You must be much younger Is this the same camp / testing GM Lang tested at?


----------



## chrispillertkd

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir,
> 
> Your memory is much better than mine. (You must be much younger



 Master Weiss, in my mind I'm still 18. I just wish someone would mention that to my body on some days 



> Is this the same camp / testing GM Lang tested at?



No, sir. GM Lang was already a VI dan at the 1993 camp. I remember seeing both he and GM Winegar wearing GM Sereff's old VI dan belt at the camp, in fact. Both gentlemen are very impresive. I recall seeing then-Mr. Winegar demonstrating Tong-Il and thinking, "Yeah, those angle finger tip thrusts could actually kill someone." Lots of great memories about that camp and had a really great time.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## MJS

*Admin Note:

You will notice that some posts from another thread, "Old School/Classic TKD" have been merged with this one, as they're pretty much the same topic.  Please keep this thread on track.  

MJS
MT Asst. Admin*


----------



## Gemini

mastercole said:


> I think you mean you competed in WTF events, not Kukkiwon events.


Actually, I didn't mention either one, so I'll assume you're referring to puunui's question that I responded to. "_and has attended and judged KKW competitions? Have you competed at a KKW competition, and if so, have you won any trophies?" _



mastercole said:


> ...However, those 17 types of sparring would be depleted and no where near as effective without #17, which is the only type of Taekwondo sparring that allows for full contact training.


No argument here. I think I've clearly supported this position myself.


----------



## Gemini

Manny said:


> My post was closed, it seems it went wrong and I didin't want it to be that way, so sorry folks, please acept my apologies. Well somebody asked how is the class in JDK headquarters in my city. Well the class is very rounded, it has nice warm up/stretching/conditioning in the begining and it does not FOCUS ONLY in kicking drills, JDK teaches basics and advanced techs,one steps and three steps, ho-sin-sul,poomsae and kyorugi in a regular basis not only one week before the kups tests.
> 
> The average class I have seen in other dojangs (sport oriented) is good cardio for sure and mostly kicking drills and sparring (WTF), very few self defense techs, etc,etc.
> 
> I am not a sport TKD guy, I do TKD because I love the martial side of it, when I was teen I do competition, maybe I went to no more than 8 tornaments most of them as a red belt and all consited of local tournaments, I won some medals and I lost many fights but competition was not the driving force that keep me learning and practicing TKD.
> 
> I love the old way and the old methods, simply as that, maybe I am too square and maybe I am too old to change or become a super duper TKD man like Steven Lopez, or maybe because I've never succeded in TKD competition.
> 
> here in this forum thare are many sambonims that feel the new methods are better and TKD is better today than ever, and there are a small group of old f.....rts that love the way TKD was a few decades ago. Something that drove out of TKD in the 90's was all the efforts to do TKD an olimpic sport, the trainings become oriented to the olimpics and slowly things changed the way I don't liked it.
> 
> The above is my way of thinking, I won't change my feelings, I will keep trying to teach the way I like and that's all folks, a medal or a trophy never represented too much.
> 
> Manny



There's absolutely nothing for you to apologize for, though some other's should probably do so. As for your training, the only person your training has to appeal to is you. I'd still like to know why you left the school you mentioned in your original post. Seemed like you where a pretty good match. If you responded and I missed it through all the fertilizer, I apologize.


----------



## GlassJaw

MJS said:


> Some posts were removed and we'll be reading thru the thread again to see if there was anything we missed.  Most likely by tomorrow, it'll be reopened.



Thanks for keep things running smoothly around here!  

I just want to suggest that it might have helped to have posted that (the part that the offending posts had already been removed) at the time of the thread's closing.  

As it was, when I saw the warning, I started paging back through earlier posts to figure out what set it off (so that I could better understand the how the admins interpret the rules--I got de-repped a few years ago when someone else got a mod warning for bumping an old thread, then I got slammed for daring to ask what the proper procedure should have been--I'm still trying to figure out just what the rules are; "reasonable" is a very subjective concept).  

But I couldn't find anything there that I thought was particularly personal.  (A brief panic went through my head: "Oh no, has MT gone police state? The only way to learn the laws is to unwittingly break one!")  Then I got to this part where you say that the posts that crossed the line had already been removed. ("Whew!)


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> Excellent post.  To take this a step further, in regards to sparring;
> 
> 
> Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation skills can be attempted and practiced?
> Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?
> Do either have the option and/or ability to use improvised weapons?
> Can either attempt to use cover and/or concealment?
> Can several of the opposition have 'friends' join the conflict so that multiple opponents are now in the equation?
> Is the same footwear always worn?
> Are both parties required to abide by the same rules?
> Any chance of going to the ground?
> Any chance the 'good guy' can do a gross motor skill 'stun and run'?
> Do they spar in all lighting conditions, including dim light conditions?
> Do they always spar on a dry, level surface or are slopes and alternative surfaces utilized like the parking lot, grass etc?
> Is a uniform and/or belt always worn, or regular street clothes.
> Is the sparring session begun at a pre-arranged time or is one party completely surprised (read typical ambush)?
> If a mistake is made, or a strike connects do the opponents continue or do they reset their positions and start again.
> Are they always started in a standing position, facing each other?  Or can one be on the ground at a postiton of disadvantage at the start?
> Do they always train inside the school or can they train out in the parking lot between a couple of parked cars, a ditch, an elevator, a stairway, an alley etc?
> 
> These are just some of the considerations that may separate the two methodologies.  This is what I'm talking about and that old school, in my experience (and not just TKD) addresses.


Please cite TKD schools train like this "back in the day".  While I think this type of training can be useful, I have yet to run across any TKD schools old or new have never trained in this method.  So I am curious as to what schools your refer to.  Plus I am still waiting for the answer to my question.  The OP is talking about Old School TKD correct?


----------



## Archtkd

Manny said:


> Well somebody asked how is the class in JDK headquarters in my city. Well the class is very rounded, it has nice warm up/stretching/conditioning in the begining and it does not FOCUS ONLY in kicking drills, JDK teaches basics and advanced techs,one steps and three steps, ho-sin-sul,poomsae and kyorugi in a regular basis not only one week before the kups tests.
> 
> The average class I have seen in other dojangs (sport oriented) is good cardio for sure and mostly kicking drills and sparring (WTF), very few self defense techs, etc,etc.
> 
> I am not a sport TKD guy, I do TKD because I love the martial side of it, when I was teen I do competition, maybe I went to no more than 8 tornaments most of them as a red belt and all consited of local tournaments, I won some medals and I lost many fights but competition was not the driving force that keep me learning and practicing TKD.
> 
> I love the old way and the old methods, simply as that, maybe I am too square and maybe I am too old to change or become a super duper TKD man like Steven Lopez, or maybe because I've never succeded in TKD competition.
> Manny



I don't get what the fuss is all about. I've done Kukkiwon style taekwondo for more than 25 years under different teachers, and all the things you cite, save for three steps, were and continue to be part of the classes. We do the same things in our dojang today, but we've never labeled ourselves as modern, classic, traditional, etc. The folks who compete or simply want to be the best taekwondoin in our dojang should/might spend extra time on WTF sparring, but they also have to be well grounded in the other stuff. What we always strived to improve is the trainining methods to reduce injury and improve mental and physcal fitness. I don't think we are an unusual Kukkiwon style dojang, save for that we still have a floating wooden floor in our main training area. We have a WTF regulation matted floor in the area where we do full contract sparring and self defense that involves throw and takedowns.


----------



## Manny

Archtkd said:


> I don't get what the fuss is all about. I've done Kukkiwon style taekwondo for more than 25 years under different teachers, and all the things you cite, save for three steps, were and continue to be part of the classes. We do the same things in our dojang today, but we've never labeled ourselves as modern, classic, traditional, etc. The folks who compete or simply want to be the best taekwondoin in our dojang should/might spend extra time on WTF sparring, but they also have to be well grounded in the other stuff. What we always strived to improve is the trainining methods to reduce injury and improve mental and physcal fitness. I don't think we are an unusual Kukkiwon style dojang, save for that we still have a floating wooden floor in our main training area. We have a WTF regulation matted floor in the area where we do full contract sparring and self defense that involves throw and takedowns.



What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.

For example, the blocks we usually do in our dojang are the low, the high and the middle blocks (ogul makki, are makki, yop makki, motong an and motong bakat makki) but what about the X block/orgoro makki or the hecho makki? the regula drills we do once in a while is igh block+reverse punch, or low block and reverse punch, and that's all.

Pu it in other way, the sambonims  expendes or uses most of the tclass time on footwork and kicking drills and lets almost nothing to practice another things of the KUKIWON curricula.


I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.

But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.

Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.


Manny


----------



## Archtkd

Manny said:


> What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.
> 
> For example, the blocks we usually do in our dojang are the low, the high and the middle blocks (ogul makki, are makki, yop makki, motong an and motong bakat makki) but what about the X block/orgoro makki or the hecho makki? the regula drills we do once in a while is igh block+reverse punch, or low block and reverse punch, and that's all.
> 
> Pu it in other way, the sambonims expendes or uses most of the tclass time on footwork and kicking drills and lets almost nothing to practice another things of the KUKIWON curricula.
> 
> 
> I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.
> 
> But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.
> 
> Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.
> 
> Manny


 I think you shoud look for another dojang to train in. I'm sure there will be other instructors in your city who offer a more balanced taekwondo curriculum. Also, what you are talking about is an issue of dojang/instructor and probably market preference, much more than a systemic issue. i.e.. the idea that Kukkiwon style taekwondo has dramatically changed over the last few years and that the bulk of its instructors have abandonded everything else for the sake of WTF sparring and commercialization is incorrect. 

I also think what you appear to be decrying is a lack of serious basic taekwondo training in your dojang, much more than the lack of recently developed hard-core self defense training techniques for the deadly streets, as some have been implying on this thread.

Individual Kukkiwon style taekwondo instructors worldwide have always and will continue to teach in different ways, sometimes emphasizing on some things more than others. I however do not believe that all Kukkiwon style teachers have carte blanche decided that WTF sparring is the only thing to focus on. In fact there are very few commercially succesful Kukkiwon style dojangs in the U.S. focusing entirely on serious WTF sparring: It makes little money.


----------



## puunui

Manny said:


> What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.



If that is what many dojang in your city are doing, then it is probably because it is what the students want. If there is very little of the other stuff, the reason probably is that nobody wants that.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> If that is what many dojang in your city are doing, then it is probably because it is what the students want. If there is very little of the other stuff, the reason probably is that nobody wants that.



Possibly, but perhaps not probably.  Another explanation would be that the instructor(s) are not well versed in the other areas.  If they were trained in one venue, they would be at a disadvantage teaching in another venue. Or, it is financially lucrative to concentrate on a specific area.  

The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught.  They take what is offered.  It isn't like they are going to vote.  If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what the options are going to be.


----------



## mastercole

Taekwondo has grown very strong all through Latin America, and in Mexico in particular because of Olympic style competition.  The Olympic Summer Games are coming to Brazil in 2016, so it is only going to grow more and more, and that is a good thing.

Personal, I would recommend that you ride that wave, and try to enjoy it. It won't last forever and will be a time and place that many many Taekwondoin in Latin America will look back on as fun and exciting times. There is always time to dig in and focus on the full curriculum of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but an event like this only comes to a region once in a lifetime.

I say, don't miss out.


----------



## Earl Weiss

puunui said:


> ............. something that self defense expert peyton quinn advocates is one of the most important aspects of self defense training. If you go to one of his camps, a large portion is devoted to defending against the bullet man, striking the bullet man as hard as you can. peyton is an advocate of high adrenaline full contact training.



I have been to RMCAT and banging on the bullet men was great fun. It was a litle freaky jabbing at the eyes ( i Was worried I'd still hurt them since the fingers stretched the screening an inch or so.) .  A good portion was having them "Woof" on you insulting your race, ethnicity, family etc.  Bill Kipp was one of the of the original guys was serving as a Bulletman. We were told to "De escalate, but I couldn't resist messing with him.  One of the few times I ever saw him miss a beat as a "Woofer" . It also happened to be the only time, up until then that he was ever injured as a bulletman and they took quite a beating.  

Since I am not a big guy and since all that padding made them hard to get a hold of, I was unable to use standup grappling with any effectivenenss. I would have like to play with that more.  My ground grappling background came thru. It was nice that the bulletmen geared their intensity level to that of the "Campers". The good size trained adult male was attacked with more intensity and sophistication than the 110lb untrained female.  They would also set you up for failure if you were more experienced.  They would do this by teaching you a technique they wanted you to use then attack you and have you use that technique only to counter it. 

Took me a while to figure this out. Realized it when I saw them do it to someone else.  Next time I went to plan B. This befuddled the Bulletman so much that the next time it came up he attacked me the same way. Plan b worked again.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Kong Soo Do said:


> Possibly, but perhaps not probably.  Another explanation would be that the instructor(s) are not well versed in the other areas.  If they were trained in one venue, they would be at a disadvantage teaching in another venue. Or, it is financially lucrative to concentrate on a specific area.
> 
> The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught.  They take what is offered.  It isn't like they are going to vote.  If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what thie options are going to be.


I think you are right. Its largely because instructors dont know how to teach the other way in many cases. New students will flock to the clubs who market themselves the best usually. New students generally think all ma is the same. Its a bit far fetched to suggest schools focus on wtf sparring because thats what students want.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Kong Soo Do said:


> Possibly, but perhaps not probably.  Another explanation would be that the instructor(s) are not well versed in the other areas.  If they were trained in one venue, they would be at a disadvantage teaching in another venue. Or, it is financially lucrative to concentrate on a specific area.
> 
> The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught.  They take what is offered.  It isn't like they are going to vote.  If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what the options are going to be.



Very true. The average person walking into a school for the first time isn't going to know what's geared towards sport, towards street, towards pure show (the XMA stuff) or what overlap there is between those areas.

Odds are, they're walking in not because of what is taught, but because of how effectively it's marketed.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> The individual student won't be a determining factor on what is taught.  They take what is offered.  It isn't like they are going to vote.  If the majority of schools offer a specific venue, then the student is limited to what the options are going to be.



Or they will take another style and not taekwondo. People want what they want, and if they do not want something, they aren't going to be spending the big bucks schools charge now to enroll their children or themselves. It is the basic law of economics. Give people what they want, and they will flock to you. Offer something that the public does not want, and you will go out of business.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> Or they will take another style and not taekwondo. People want what they want, and if they do not want something, they aren't going to be spending the big bucks schools charge now to enroll their children or themselves. It is the basic law of economics. Give people what they want, and they will flock to you. Offer something that the public does not want, and you will go out of business.


When it comes to martial arts the public usually dont know what they want. They roll up to the local dojo, see a guy in a black belt with half a dozen stripes on it and from there on that guys word is gospel. In Manny's area, for instance, wtf clubs are everywhere and have the market share. In my area, wtf clubs struggle, and the old school clubs have the largest percentge of tkd students. Why? Marketing. It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that most schools in Manny's area are wtf olympic style schools because "thats what students want".


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Taekwondo has grown very strong all through Latin America, and in Mexico in particular because of Olympic style competition.  The Olympic Summer Games are coming to Brazil in 2016, so it is only going to grow more and more, and that is a good thing.
> 
> Personal, I would recommend that you ride that wave, and try to enjoy it. It won't last forever and will be a time and place that many many Taekwondoin in Latin America will look back on as fun and exciting times. There is always time to dig in and focus on the full curriculum of Kukkiwon Taekwondo, but an event like this only comes to a region once in a lifetime.
> 
> I say, don't miss out.



Exactly. You can either go with the flow or constantly fight the upstream battle like a spawning salmon. I prefer to go with the flow.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Manny said:


> What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.
> 
> For example, the blocks we usually do in our dojang are the low, the high and the middle blocks (ogul makki, are makki, yop makki, motong an and motong bakat makki) but what about the X block/orgoro makki or the hecho makki? the regula drills we do once in a while is igh block+reverse punch, or low block and reverse punch, and that's all.
> 
> Pu it in other way, the sambonims  expendes or uses most of the tclass time on footwork and kicking drills and lets almost nothing to practice another things of the KUKIWON curricula.
> 
> 
> I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.
> 
> But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.
> 
> Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.
> 
> 
> Manny


This is exactly the situation with wtf clubs in my area. They are 100% geared toward the olympic sparring. My friends who train at these clubs come and train with me at my house occasionally and when it comes to anything to do with olympic sparring they are experts. They know that this counters that, but this wont counter that unless you do a back kick but that wont usually score unless you turn your foot this way etc etc. Every last thing they do is in realation to olympic sparring ruleset. It is their whole focus. One of them is a second degree black belt and when we do punching drills on my bag its obvious he has never been taught to punch properly. When a mate of mine asked him why he cant punch, his response was "because punches rarely score". I know this is not representative of every wtf club, but in my area it desribes most wtf clubs, and from what manny says, its a representation of his area also.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> Exactly. You can either go with the flow or constantly fight the upstream battle like a spawning salmon. I prefer to go with the flow.


I dont go with the flow when it comes to anything. I make informed, well researched decisions and make my own opinions. I run a very successful business, and its certainly not because "I went with the flow". Many of these schools go with the flow bacuse they have no idea about how to teach real self defence so they "go with the flow". A cop out if you ask me. Handing out black belts to someone who has never been taught to punch and then splashing "self defence" all over their marketing material is just plain wrong.


----------



## chrispillertkd

"A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go gainst it." - G.K. Chesterton

Pax,

Chris


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> When it comes to martial arts the public usually dont know what they want. They roll up to the local dojo, see a guy in a black belt with half a dozen stripes on it and from there on that guys word is gospel. In Manny's area, for instance, wtf clubs are everywhere and have the market share. In my area, wtf clubs struggle, and the old school clubs have the largest percentge of tkd students. Why? Marketing. It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that most schools in Manny's area are wtf olympic style schools because "thats what students want".



It is what the Mexican people want.

*&#8220;Taekwondo is My Life,&#8221; says Mexican Taekwondo Federation President 
&#8220;Taekwondo is No. 1 Sport,&#8221; says Puerto Rico Taekwondo President
*
Taekwondo is rapidly gaining its popularity in Mexico and Puerto Rico, especially after the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games, says the presidents of the Mexican and Puerto Rico Taekwondo Federations.

In an interview with the Korean press on May 22, 2009, Mr. Juan Manuel Lopez Delgado, president of the Mexican Taekwondo Federation, and Victor Rivera, president of the Puerto Rico Taekwondo Federation, made the remarks.

The two presidents participated as students in the WTF-organized 66th International Referee Refresher Course in Seoul, Korea on May 22-24, 2009. The event drew 122 international referees from 20 countries.

&#8220;Taekwondo is my life. The popularity of taekwondo has been quickly growing after Mexico won two gold medals in taekwondo at the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games,&#8221; said Mr. Lopez, who became the new president of the Mexican Taekwondo Federation two months ago.

Mexico won two gold medals and one bronze medal overall at the Beijing Olympic Games. Mexico&#8217;s Guillermo Perez won the gold medal in the men&#8217;s -58kg category and his compatriot Maria del Rosario Espinoza also earned her country the gold medal in the women&#8217;s +67kg division.

Saying that about 1.5 million people are practicing taekwondo in Mexico, Mr. Lopez, a 6th Kukkiwon black-belt holder, said he would focus on the professionalization of taekwondo.

The WTF World Taekwondo Tour 2009 Mexico was originally supposed to take place on May 2, 2009 in Mexico City, but it was put off until further notice mainly because of the ongoing swine influenza.

The new Mexican president, who officiated as an international referee in the taekwondo competition at the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games, said that he would also try to foster taekwondo as a martial art.

The president of the Puerto Rico Taekwondo Federation told the Korean media that taekwondo is the most popular sport in the Latin American country.

&#8220;Taekwondo is the No. 1 sport in my country. Out of about 4 million people, about 16,000 are practicing taekwondo,&#8221; said Mr. Rivera.

&#8220;We sent two athletes to the taekwondo competition at the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games and one female athlete ranked fifth in her weight category, the highest accomplishment among the 23-member Puerto Rico Olympic delegation,&#8221; said Mr. Rivera, who became the president of the Puerto Rico Taekwondo Federation in 2005 and hopes to run for another term.

&#8220;We will do our best to win a medal in the taekwondo competition at the 2012 London Olympic Games,&#8221; the 7th Kukkiwon black-belt holder said.

The 42-year old president said, &#8220;We plan to dispatch a group of national team members to Seoul in June this year for an intensive training.&#8221;

Together with Ramon Olivieri, chairman of the Referee Committee of the Puerto Rico Taekwondo Federation, Mr. Rivera said that his federation has provided free classes to poor students.

&#8220;Taekwondo is playing a key role in kicking off drugs, women abuse and alcoholism in our country,&#8221; he said.

Puerto Rico, which hosted the Pan American Taekwondo Championships in 2008 in a very successful manner, wants to earn the right to organize the Pan American continental qualification taekwondo tournament for the 2012 London Olympic Games.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

chrispillertkd said:


> "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go gainst it."
> - G.K. Chesterton
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Brilliant! Ive always considered the term "go with the flow" as a negative thing. I dont think many successful people out there use the term "go with the flow" when discussing their success.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> When it comes to martial arts the public usually dont know what they want. They roll up to the local dojo, see a guy in a black belt with half a dozen stripes on it and from there on that guys word is gospel. In Manny's area, for instance, wtf clubs are everywhere and have the market share. In my area, wtf clubs struggle, and the old school clubs have the largest percentge of tkd students. Why? Marketing. It is absolutely ludicrous to suggest that most schools in Manny's area are wtf olympic style schools because "thats what students want".



If your in Queensland Kukkiwon schools seem to be all over the place. http://www.tkdqld.com/     Also, Queensland's Ali Kahlil was selected at Australian Olympic Team Coach for London 2012.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Brilliant! Ive always considered the term "go with the flow" as a negative thing. I dont think many successful people out there use the term "go with the flow" when discussing their success.



"Flow with whatever is happening and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate." ~ Chuang Tzu


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> If your in Queensland Kukkiwon schools seem to be all over the place. http://www.tkdqld.com/     Also, Queensland's Ali Kahlil was selected at Australian Olympic Team Coach for London 2012.


True. There are kkw clubs everywhere, BUT they are tiny, 20 or 30 students. That is pretty much the norm. We have some big kkw clubs in sydney, where I currently reside. Ive never said kkw clubs dont exist here, they do, but when you are talking big successful clubs over here you are talking about chois, or moon lee, or rhee, or  a host of others. Tans would be the only wtf club here thats a 'household name', and thats only because one of the trainers on 'biggest loser' is a 5th dan there and plugs it at every opportunity, and its where lauren burns (gold medalist) trained from memory.


----------



## Dirty Dog

mastercole said:


> It is what the Mexican people want.



:lfao:

So if you interview someone who is the head of a group dedicated to olympic-style sparring, he will tell you that olympic-style sparring is the bees knees...

I bet if you interview a politicians mother, she'll tell you that said politician is a fine human being and you can trust them with your tax money.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> "Flow with whatever is happening and let your mind be free. Stay centered by accepting whatever you are doing. This is the ultimate." ~ Chuang Tzu


"flow with whatever is happening". Great advice for kids. Not.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Dirty Dog said:


> :lfao:
> 
> So if you interview someone who is the head of a group dedicated to olympic-style sparring, he will tell you that olympic-style sparring is the bees knees...
> 
> I bet if you interview a politicians mother, she'll tell you that said politician is a fine human being and you can trust them with your tax money.


I thought the same thing. And if you read an interview from the head of the local karate organisation it will start with "the huge increase in karate's popularity is......".


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> "flow with whatever is happening". Great advice for kids. Not.



Why not. As far Taekwondo in Mexico goes, it's great advise for children. Going with the flow of Olympic Taekwondo is giving thousands of Mexican children the chance of a lifetime to travel the world and make international friends.   Old school Taekwondo, the subject of this tread is not doing very much for Mexican children. Personally if I were teaching in Mexico, I would teach nothing but Olympic sparring.

*Mexico seeks six taekwondo places in Youth Olympics*

February 18, 2010Adjust font size: 



​Mexico hopes to send six taekwondists to the Youth Olympic Games, which take place in Singapore in August, the president of the Mexican Taekwondo Federation Juan Manuel Lopez said on Wednesday.
The federation is confident of winning these places at a pre-Olympic competition set to run from March 3 to 5 in Tijuana, a city in northern Mexico state Baja California, Lopez said.
Six Mexicans won medals in the U.S. Taekwondo Open and the nation is sending a team of 32 to the competition, he added.
"We know that our level in this discipline is strong because many have experience despite their young age," said Lopez.
The Youth Olympics are set to run from Aug. 14 to 26 in Singapore. Mexican sports authorities say they plan to send 50 athletes to the games.


----------



## mastercole

Old school Taekwondo does not get this kind of attention in Mexico.  This is why youth in Mexico are in love with Olympic Taekwondo.

[h=1]Mexican City of Puebla to Host 2013 World Taekwondo Championships[/h]
The Mexican city of *Puebla* won the right to host the *2013 WTF World Taekwondo Championships* as it outvoted Croatias candidate city of Split at its Council meeting at the *Renaissance Hotel* in *Sharm* *El Sheikh*, *Egypt* on April 2, 2012. The proposed dates for the biennial championships are June 17-23, 2013.


----------



## mastercole

Dirty Dog said:


> :lfao:
> 
> So if you interview someone who is the head of a group dedicated to olympic-style sparring, he will tell you that olympic-style sparring is the bees knees...
> 
> I bet if you interview a politicians mother, she'll tell you that said politician is a fine human being and you can trust them with your tax money.



"I thought the same thing. And if you read an interview from the head of the local karate organisation it will start with "the huge increase in karate's popularity is......".


You don't have to guess on Taekwondo's popularity in Mexico. Just ask the Mexican people what sports athletes bring honor, pride and the most medals to Mexico?

In the 2004 Olympic Summer Games 2 of Mexico&#8217;s 4 Olympic medals were from Taekwondo
Olympic Silver Medalist Oscar Salazar &#8211; Mexico
Olympic Bronze Medalist Iridia Salazar - Mexico

In the 2008 Olympic Summer Games, 2 of Mexico&#8217;s 3 Olympic Medals were from Taekwondo
Olympic Gold Medalist Guillermo Perez Sandoval &#8211; Mexico
Olympic Gold Medalist Maria del Rosario Espinoza - Mexico

Again, Olympic Taekwondo gets way more public respect that so-called old school.


----------



## puunui

chrispillertkd said:


> "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go gainst it." - G.K. Chesterton



If you wish to constantly swim upstream and think that is what it is to be alive, then be my guest.


----------



## Dirty Dog

mastercole said:


> You don't have to guess on Taekwondo's popularity in Mexico. Just ask the Mexican people what sports athletes bring honor, pride and the most medals to Mexico?



So Olympic sparring is popular because people who like olympic sparring like olympic sparring?

Have you ever seen a finer example of circular logic?


----------



## mastercole

Dirty Dog said:


> So Olympic sparring is popular because people who like olympic sparring like olympic sparring?
> 
> Have you ever seen a finer example of circular logic?



The Mexican people's passion for Taekwondo is great. When Taekwondo provides your nation with the most Olympic medals, it crosses over any sports barriers in to the main stream of sports. Very unlike Taekwondo in the USA. Once, when I was there with the US Team for a big international event, the general population filled the stadium, standing room only, everyday of competition. The crowd roared so loud for Mexico fighters we could not even talk to each other.

Of course, I have only been to Mexico for Taekwondo a handful of times, sometimes for only for a month. So maybe you have some experience about this that I don't and you could expand on that.  Here's is a few photo of me in Mexico.







[/IMG]

With the US National Collegiate Taekwondo Team. Manzanillo, Colima, Mexico. World University Taekwondo Championships.






[/IMG]

Self explanatory






[/IMG]

My Team official ID Badge


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## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> The Mexican people's passion for Taekwondo is great. When Taekwondo provides your nation with the most Olympic medals, it crosses over any sports barriers in to the main stream of sports. Very unlike Taekwondo in the USA. Once, when I was there with the US Team for a big international event, the general population filled the stadium, standing room only, everyday of competition. The crowd roared so loud for Mexico fighters we could not even talk to each other.
> 
> Of course, I have only been to Mexico for Taekwondo a handful of times, sometimes for only for a month. So maybe you have some experience about this that I don't and you could expand on that.  Here's is a few photo of me in Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> With the US National Collegiate Taekwondo Team. Manzanillo, Colima, Mexico. World University Taekwondo Championships.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> Self explanatory
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/IMG]
> 
> My Team official ID Badge


Australians are very similar by the sounds. Extremely patriotic and sports crazy. I heard someone say once that if they got two guys throwing a tennis ball to each other and made it an 'event', you could fill the MCG with a hundred thousand screaming fans in australia. Its not too far from the truth.  When lauren burns won tkd gold at sydney tkd was everywhere over here.


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## ralphmcpherson

Dirty Dog said:


> So Olympic sparring is popular because people who like olympic sparring like olympic sparring?
> 
> Have you ever seen a finer example of circular logic?


I thought if you asked mexican people what brings pride etc to their country they would say soccer. But thats probably because the people who told me that are soccer fanatics.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> The Mexican people's passion for Taekwondo is great. When Taekwondo provides your nation with the most Olympic medals, it crosses over any sports barriers in to the main stream of sports. Very unlike Taekwondo in the USA. Once, when I was there with the US Team for a big international event, the general population filled the stadium, standing room only, everyday of competition. The crowd roared so loud for Mexico fighters we could not even talk to each other.



Can you believe that was 15 years ago already?


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## mastercole

Originally Posted by *mastercole* 


_The Mexican people's passion for Taekwondo is great. When Taekwondo provides your nation with the most Olympic medals, it crosses over any sports barriers in to the main stream of sports. Very unlike Taekwondo in the USA. Once, when I was there with the US Team for a big international event, the general population filled the stadium, standing room only, everyday of competition. The crowd roared so loud for Mexico fighters we could not even talk to each other._



puunui said:


> Can you believe that was 15 years ago already?



I know. And the Mexican people loved Taekwondo then, today it's much more popular.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> True. There are kkw clubs everywhere, BUT they are tiny, 20 or 30 students. That is pretty much the norm. We have some big kkw clubs in sydney, where I currently reside. Ive never said kkw clubs dont exist here, they do, but when you are talking big successful clubs over here you are talking about chois, or moon lee, or rhee, or  a host of others. Tans would be the only wtf club here thats a 'household name', and thats only because one of the trainers on 'biggest loser' is a 5th dan there and plugs it at every opportunity, and its where lauren burns (gold medalist) trained from memory.



My buddy who owns a chain of school in Queensland said when they open a new school, they advertise for a month before they open and usually have about 40 to 50 students on the first day of class. He said that is typical for Queensland schools. He also said there are over one hundred Kukkiwon schools there.  How many did you go into and count the students?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> My buddy who owns a chain of school in Queensland said when they open a new school, they advertise for a month before they open and usually have about 40 to 50 students on the first day of class. He said that is typical for Queensland schools. He also said there are over one hundred Kukkiwon schools there.  How many did you go into and count the students?


what chain of schools? 'southern cross' springs to mind but he is grossly exagerating if thats the case. I just had a quick check then in a qld phone book (it is a couple of years old) and they obviously dont advertise because there are no kkw clubs in there that I would say are even on par with the big names. Literally hundreds of smaller schools, all running out of a small set premises where you could not cater for more than 50 students tops. My instructor alone has 150 students, and he only runs a couple of classes as part of a much bigger club. Hang on, its not russell macarthur is it? they have a few clubs around the place in qld, not exactly a large chain though.


----------



## andyjeffries

ralphmcpherson said:


> Tans would be the only wtf club here thats a 'household name', and thats only because one of the trainers on 'biggest loser' is a 5th dan there and plugs it at every opportunity, and its where lauren burns (gold medalist) trained from memory.



I've never heard of Tans, but the 5th Dan Kukki-Taekwondo trainer on Biggest Loser is Tiffiny Hall from Hall's Taekwondo (http://www.hallstaekwondo.com.au/).


----------



## ralphmcpherson

andyjeffries said:


> I've never heard of Tans, but the 5th Dan Kukki-Taekwondo trainer on Biggest Loser is Tiffiny Hall from Hall's Taekwondo (http://www.hallstaekwondo.com.au/).


You are correct, I always mix those two up. I believe lauren burns was also from Hall's. I was thinking of http://www.tans.com.au/ for some reason.


----------



## miguksaram

Mst. Cole and puunui....The problem is that you refuse to see how old school TKD is far superior.  Old school TKD masters would dress you up in a tight 1970's style leisure pants, take you to a dark alley and the simulate 30 fat drunken slobs trying to fanny bang you.  That way you would know how to use your real TKD.  Just the other day I was speaking with Great Grandmaster Yu-suk Fool.  He told me how, in the 1960's he would throw 10 students in a small hagwon and have them fight with each other...while he called them dog face butt sniffers.  He would only stop the drill when only two emerged.  Then he would take those two to the local yoja noribang and have them throw down with the bouncers.  That is how all old style TKD trained

He doesn't understand why people in TKD have taken to the silly new methods of training which helps develop better body mechanics.  After all the science of the 1960's, especially in Korea, that helped developed his methods are perfect there is no need to keep exploring for more better ways.  Geeeeez.....I wish you two would just accept this and move on.


----------



## miguksaram

miguksaram said:


> Mst. Cole and puunui....The problem is that you refuse to see how old school TKD....


Someone neg rep'd me for this, saying I'm being closed minded.  The irony is that the realistic training is something I feel has merit.  I am a firm believer of programs such as RMCAT, as do the other two people who I addressed this to. However, the bottom line is that old school TKD did not train in this fashion.  If anything the RMCAT training would be considered more new school.  So to the person who neg rep'd me...whatever.  Instead of you accusing me of being closed minded perhaps, you should do better research on how 99% of the old school TKD was taught and step outside of your fantasy world of how you thought it was done.


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## chrispillertkd

What a waste this section is becoming.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> Mst. Cole and puunui....The problem is that you refuse to see how old school TKD is far superior.  Old school TKD masters would dress you up in a tight 1970's style leisure pants, take you to a dark alley and the simulate 30 fat drunken slobs trying to fanny bang you.  That way you would know how to use your real TKD.  Just the other day I was speaking with Great Grandmaster Yu-suk Fool.  He told me how, in the 1960's he would throw 10 students in a small hagwon and have them fight with each other...while he called them dog face butt sniffers.  He would only stop the drill when only two emerged.  Then he would take those two to the local yoja noribang and have them throw down with the bouncers.  That is how all old style TKD trained
> 
> He doesn't understand why people in TKD have taken to the silly new methods of training which helps develop better body mechanics.  After all the science of the 1960's, especially in Korea, that helped developed his methods are perfect there is no need to keep exploring for more better ways.  Geeeeez.....I wish you two would just accept this and move on.



I don't know who neg-repped you Jeremy, but it was well-deserved in this case.  Your post is in poor taste and disrespectful.  You may think it's funny, but it keeps the 'us vs. them' mentality going when 'we' are trying hard to have an open, honest and intelligent conversation.  Posts like yours are going to do nothing but provoke people and get the thread closed again.  Which too be honest, I suspect is the goal of you and two others.


----------



## dancingalone

miguksaram said:


> Someone neg rep'd me for this, saying I'm being closed minded.  The irony is that the realistic training is something I feel has merit.  I am a firm believer of programs such as RMCAT, as do the other two people who I addressed this to. However, the bottom line is that old school TKD did not train in this fashion.  If anything the RMCAT training would be considered more new school.  So to the person who neg rep'd me...whatever.  Instead of you accusing me of being closed minded perhaps, you should do better research on how 99% of the old school TKD was taught and step outside of your fantasy world of how you thought it was done.



I didn't neg rep you, miguksaram, but I did think the sarcasm in your post unnecessary.  I'd rather we deescalate the tension on the forum, and I've been biting back my words (fingers?) a few times in the last weeks as I realized I didn't want to add to the unfriendly atmosphere.  It's fine to disagree with each other but let's do so with framed arguments and exchanges.

Cheers.

(Edit - Just noticed Kong Soo Do's post above and while I generally agree with what he wrote except the remark about other people's intentions, please note I'm taking no sides here.  We all need to calm down a bit.)


----------



## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Drop the shots, stay on topic, and play by the rules.  *

*Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator
*


----------



## dancingalone

A question for anyone who can answer it:  With regard to a simple reverse punch, has the technique been improved upon bio-mechanically recently or are we talking about building faster, stronger, bigger athletes  through 'modern training methods'?


----------



## Archtkd

dancingalone said:


> A question for anyone who can answer it:  With regard to a simple reverse punch, has the technique been improved upon bio-mechanically recently or are we talking about building faster, stronger, bigger athletes  through 'modern training methods'?



I think the footwork and timing applied in throwing that punch is what many practitioners, me included, work on sharpening and tweaking. 

I don't know enough of the eastern martial arts history of the punch to seriously discuss its earlier analytics, but how one moves their feet and distributes balance has a lot to do with landing it with maximum effect, especially at the solar plexus/trunk (the intended target in WTF sparring). The rotation of the wrist and positioning of knuckles are also key. The footwork I'm speaking of would include throwing the punch from a stationery position at someone coming at you, sliding foward to block and cut distance while throwing the punch, jumping forward (both feet) up as is common with lots of WTF fighters) to hit with a downward angle, and moving sideways to evade and cut distance. And by the way, I hope we are using the term reverse punch to mean the same thing: the punch thrown from the side of the rear foot.


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't know who neg-repped you Jeremy, but it was well-deserved in this case.  Your post is in poor taste and disrespectful.  You may think it's funny, but it keeps the 'us vs. them' mentality going when 'we' are trying hard to have an open, honest and intelligent conversation.  Posts like yours are going to do nothing but provoke people and get the thread closed again.  Which too be honest, I suspect is the goal of you and two others.


Are you the kettle or the pot in this scenario.  You have done more than your fair share of keeping the "us vs. them" conversation going.  Bottom line is this...your vision of what old school TKD used to teach is wrong.  The way you teach SD is fine and I'm sure there are many people who enjoy it.  I for one do see value in what you teach.  That still does not change the fact that old school TKD did not teach in the fashion that you listed in a prior posting, nor did that list have anything to do with old school teaching methods of TKD vs modern teaching methods of TKD.  If you wanted to compare proper SD training in TKD then by all means start a new thread.  

Lastly, you have yet to answer the questions that I have posted several times to even keep an "open minded, intelligent conversation" going.  I am still waiting on the answers.

Humor, like porn, is a "I know what it is when I see it".  Perhaps my post was not funny, honestly don't care if anyone found it humorous or not.  It is how I felt when I posted it.  Besides if all my jokes were spot on, I would be doing Leno.


----------



## dancingalone

Archtkd said:


> I think the footwork and timing applied in throwing that punch is what many practitioners, me included, work on sharpening and tweaking.
> 
> I don't know enough of the eastern martial arts history of the punch to seriously discuss its earlier analytics, but how one moves their feet and distributes balance has a lot to do with landing it with maximum effect, especially at the solar plexus/trunk (the intended target in WTF sparring). The rotation of the wrist and positioning of knuckles are also key. The footwork I'm speaking of would include throwing the punch from a stationery position at someone coming at you, sliding foward to block and cut distance while throwing the punch, jumping forward (both feet) up as is common with lots of WTF fighters) to hit with a downward angle, and moving sideways to evade and cut distance. And by the way, I hope we are using the term reverse punch to mean the same thing: the punch thrown from the side of the rear foot.




Yes, a reverse punch is a straight thrust punch from the rear hand.  I appreciate your thoughts on training it.  It's good sound stuff also found in 'traditional' training.  The jumping application you mentioned is even expressed formally in Tang Soo Do variations of a hyung/kata called Palsek Dae/Bassai Dai.   

Did I pick the wrong technique to ask about to help illustrate the differences between modern and old training methods?  From my perspective, any type of quality training, new and old, should include learning how to attack and defense proficiently and this will include footwork, angles, speed/power, and structural/functional integrity.


----------



## miguksaram

dancingalone said:


> Yes, a reverse punch is a straight thrust punch from the rear hand.  I appreciate your thoughts on training it.  It's good sound stuff also found in 'traditional' training.  The jumping application you mentioned is even expressed formally in Tang Soo Do variations of a hyung/kata called Palsek Dae/Bassai Dai.
> 
> Did I pick the wrong technique to ask about to help illustrate the differences between modern and old training methods?  From my perspective, any type of quality training, new and old, should include learning how to attack and defense proficiently and this will include footwork, angles, speed/power, and structural/functional integrity.



Footwork and stances as well as kicking techniques are a good start to compare training methods.  Mst. Cole, puunui and a couple of others who coach constantly on these items could give you some great insights on the differences.


----------



## dancingalone

miguksaram said:


> Footwork and stances as well as kicking techniques are a good start to compare training methods.  Mst. Cole, puunui and a couple of others who coach constantly on these items could give you some great insights on the differences.



You have a foot in both camps, don't you, miguksaram?  I'd love hearing your thoughts while we wait for someone else to chime in.  By the way, I'm learning the KKW style right now and some competition oriented stuff is inevitably also bleeding in, so I have a small inkling of the differences - but I'd like to actually have a substantial discussion here on MT rather than the usual 'my way is the best' stuff we've seen too frequently.

I'm also interested what 'old school' TKD that the likes of GM LEE Won Kuk actually taught was for comparative purposes.  I sometimes get the feeling that the reason why 'modern' methods are said to be superior is because they actually are functional for their purposes while in contrast the training in many mediocre dojang/dojo is NOT functional although it should be.  I'd hate for those schools to be representative of what 'traditional' training is, since I certainly think traditional methodology can and does produce functionally capable fighters.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> Are you the kettle or the pot in this scenario.  You have done more than your fair share of keeping the "us vs. them" conversation going.



I am neither Jeremy.  In this thread, just as in many others, I've provided input without resorting to juvenile humor, sarcasm or shots at other people.  I believe several times I have clearly indicated that this isn't an 'us vs. them' scenario.  I haven't put down sport training methodology, rather I have demonstrated the differences between it and SD training methodology.  Clearly identifying the differences is not putting one over the other.   


> The way you teach SD is fine and I'm sure there are many people who enjoy it.  I for one do see value in what you teach.



Thank you for that.


> That still does not change the fact that old school TKD did not teach in  the fashion that you listed in a prior posting, nor did that list have  anything to do with old school teaching methods of TKD vs modern  teaching methods of TKD.



We are in disagreement on this point.  While I cannot be responsible for what you've experienced, or not experienced, I can authoritatively comment upon what I've experienced or not experienced.


> Lastly, you have yet to answer the questions that I have posted...



And you won't receive any.  It results in the thread going off-topic and eventually closed.  What happened in this very thread is a prime example.  I'm no longer going to entertain this course of action.  



> Humor, like porn, is a "I know what it is when I see it".  Perhaps my  post was not funny, honestly don't care if anyone found it humorous or  not.  It is how I felt when I posted it.



Attitudes such as this lead to the thread going off-topic, falling into the 'us vs. them' mentality or simply being closed.  Overall, this is a good thread that has the potential of becoming a great thread.  I for one would like to see that happen.  Thus from this point forward, I will not respond to you, Glenn (puunui) or Al (mastercole) as I don't consider it worth the effort.  Thus I will not be part of the problem.  I'll simply use the RTM function if necessary.


----------



## Archtkd

Manny said:


> What is missing in many dojangs in my city isthat these dojangs classes are focused on WTF sparring very influenced by Olimpic Games, so basicallly all the other stuff is put aside/beside, the time used for one steps/three steps (in fact in some dojangs they don´t know how to perform three steps), ho shi sul and the other techs like blocking,stances etc. is very little.
> I try to see in every class I teach not only kicking drills but basic techs, hand/kick combos, defenses and blocks,poomsae and if time allows me even aplications of what we see in class, I am not expend all the time kicking the mitts or palchaguiis for example.
> 
> But as some one mentioned here, there are folks intersted in WTF Sparring/Olimpic Saprring and there are some folks that lie the old ways of teaching TKD.
> 
> Last night training consited of some footwork using bandal chagui/peet chagui offensively and defensively and we finish class doing light sparring using only the techs we were doing. Maybe next class I will teach basics and one steps/theree steps aplications and if time allos a a little poomsae.
> Manny



Manny/ What are the demographics of people who train at your dojang? Is  it predominantly children, youth, adults, or older adults. How many  people of your your age , experience and station in life train there? If  you have many people interested in more balanced training a the dojang,  you could create classes to do that. It seem to be like you've already started doing that.


----------



## miguksaram

Kong Soo Do said:


> Attitudes such as this lead to the thread going off-topic, falling into the 'us vs. them' mentality or simply being closed.  Overall, this is a good thread that has the potential of becoming a great thread.  I for one would like to see that happen.  Thus from this point forward, I will not respond to you, Glenn (puunui) or Al (mastercole) as I don't consider it worth the effort.  Thus I will not be part of the problem.  I'll simply use the RTM function if necessary.


I'm sure our feelings won't be hurt just as I'm sure you will just run over to your other board and complain over there about how you are treated here by us and they can give you the sympathetic pat on the back you are craving.  Nuff said.


----------



## RobinTKD

dancingalone said:


> I'm also interested what 'old school' TKD that the likes of GM LEE Won Kuk actually taught was for comparative purposes.  I sometimes get the feeling that the reason why 'modern' methods are said to be superior is because they actually are functional for their purposes while in contrast the training in many mediocre dojang/dojo is NOT functional although it should be. .



This is exactly what I was hoping to get from the thread too, there is obviously a wealth of TKD knowledge and experience on here, it would be good to hear what some of it has to say.



dancingalone said:


> I'd hate for those schools to be representative of what 'traditional' training is, since I certainly think traditional methodology can and does produce functionally capable fighters.



Just speak to Sensei Gavin Mullholland and his 'old school' Goju fighters currently touring the UK MMA scene very successfully.


----------



## miguksaram

dancingalone said:


> You have a foot in both camps, don't you, miguksaram?  I'd love hearing your thoughts while we wait for someone else to chime in.  By the way, I'm learning the KKW style right now and some competition oriented stuff is inevitably also bleeding in, so I have a small inkling of the differences - but I'd like to actually have a substantial discussion here on MT rather than the usual 'my way is the best' stuff we've seen too frequently.



Actually I am the wrong person to ask as I do not consider myself to be well versed to speak with authority on the more modern methods taught in the KKW TKD schools.  This why I refer you to Mst. Cole, puunui and others like ArchTKD who have been coaching for a while.



> I'm also interested what 'old school' TKD that the likes of GM LEE Won Kuk actually taught was for comparative purposes.  I sometimes get the feeling that the reason why 'modern' methods are said to be superior is because they actually are functional for their purposes while in contrast the training in many mediocre dojang/dojo is NOT functional although it should be.  I'd hate for those schools to be representative of what 'traditional' training is, since I certainly think traditional methodology can and does produce functionally capable fighters.


I agree...Old school is not inferior nor is new school superior.  Like anything they each have their give an takes.  The key is to be smart enough to implement both for a better product.  I don't believe in discarding anything simply because it is old, however, if some presents a methodology that can give me the same results in a quicker fashion then why wouldn't I convert to that method?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I wanted to touch upon one of my earlier posts with an eye towards expanding it.  Defensive Tactics training for military, L.E., Corrections etc comes directly from the martial arts.  It is often a simplified model due to time constraints as well as monetary considerations.  But by and large, D.T. and SD owes its existence to the martial arts.  This has been both a blessing and a curse.  Many years ago, Royce Gracie offered BJJ at the regional training facility where I taught as an adjunct instructor for the academies.  Initially it was wildly popular.  However, when the 'wow' factor faded, everyone started realizing that none of the instruction could actually be incorporated into practical street usage.  In fact, it was deemed detrimental training and Royce had to adjust what was being taught.  Even then, I haven't seen that course offered for years.  The reason was that it was geared for sport, with a sport training methodology.  This isn't putting down sport training methodology, but it is identifying it as not the best choice for certain venues.  It is like using a saw to hammer a nail.  Wrong tool for the job.  Looking at my earlier post;



> Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is  there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation  skills can be attempted and practiced?
> Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?
> Do either have the option and/or ability to use improvised weapons?
> Can either attempt to use cover and/or concealment?
> Can several of the opposition have 'friends' join the conflict so that multiple opponents are now in the equation?
> Is the same footwear always worn?
> Are both parties required to abide by the same rules?
> Any chance of going to the ground?
> Any chance the 'good guy' can do a gross motor skill 'stun and run'?
> Do they spar in all lighting conditions, including dim light conditions?
> Do they always spar on a dry, level surface or are slopes and alternative surfaces utilized like the parking lot, grass etc?
> Is a uniform and/or belt always worn, or regular street clothes.
> Is the sparring session begun at a pre-arranged time or is one party completely surprised (read typical ambush)?
> If a mistake is made, or a strike connects do the opponents continue or do they reset their positions and start again.
> Are  they always started in a standing position, facing each other?  Or can  one be on the ground at a postiton of disadvantage at the start?
> Do  they always train inside the school or can they train out in the  parking lot between a couple of parked cars, a ditch, an elevator, a  stairway, an alley etc?
> 
> 
> These are just some of the considerations that may separate the two  methodologies.  This is what I'm talking about and that old school, in  my experience (and not just TKD) addresses.



Taking the first two on the list;



> Do the opponents begin the sparring immediately, or is  there a time prior to the physical conflict that verbal de-esculation  skills can be attempted and practiced?
> Is there an opportunity to evade or escape?



Envision martial arts of a century or more removed.  Policing agencies with the ability of rapid transport didn't always exist.  Homes were often farther spread apart in rural communities (and still are in some areas).  The average person didn't have a firearm or other weapons-specific tool.  They didn't have home alarms.  In otherwords, they were a bit more dependent upon themselves for defense.  The were often their own first and last line of defense.  And that can often translate to us in the present depending upon the scenario.  Thus a means to de-esculate a situation was of prime concern, as was the ability to train to avoid the confrontation all together.  

Since we react under duress the way we train, we need to make sure that our training, if in any way touches on SD, reflects what may happen in a real world scenario.  In an altercation, it probably isn't in our best interest to take on a 'stance' and then make the attempt to strike/kick the bad guy, at least not if other options are available.  But we need to train for those options so that they can be utilized under duress.  Does a student have the option to practice verbally or physically (posture) de-esculate?  What about practicing avoidance, evasion or escape?  Getting to a door and locking it.  Putting a large, inanimate object between you and the aggressor.  Yelling for help prior to the attack to gain attention.  Better yet, yelling 'FIRE' instead of 'HELP' as it may actually draw more attention.  How about crossing the street?  Getting into the car and leaving?  Ducking into a store with lots of public attention?  

Just talking about it once but never practicing it is not sufficient.  It should be a regular part of training, if SD is one of the considerations.  It doesn't take away from sparring, it adds a new layer to it.  

More to follow.


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## Archtkd

Kong Soo Do said:


> I wanted to touch upon one of my earlier posts with an eye towards expanding it.  Defensive Tactics training for military, L.E., Corrections etc comes directly from the martial arts.  It is often a simplified model due to time constraints as well as monetary considerations.  But by and large, D.T. and SD owes its existence to the martial arts.  This has been both a blessing and a curse.  Many years ago, Royce Gracie offered BJJ at the regional training facility where I taught as an adjunct instructor for the academies.  Initially it was wildly popular.  However, when the 'wow' factor faded, everyone started realizing that none of the instruction could actually be incorporated into practical street usage.  In fact, it was deemed detrimental training and Royce had to adjust what was being taught.  Even then, I haven't seen that course offered for years.  The reason was that it was geared for sport, with a sport training methodology.  This isn't putting down sport training methodology, but it is identifying it as not the best choice for certain venues.  It is like using a saw to hammer a nail.  Wrong tool for the job.  Looking at my earlier post;



How does this connect to Manny's original post and his nostalgia about training with an old school taekwondoin of the Jidokwan lineage in Mexico?


----------



## MJS

GlassJaw said:


> Thanks for keep things running smoothly around here!
> 
> I just want to suggest that it might have helped to have posted that (the part that the offending posts had already been removed) at the time of the thread's closing.
> 
> As it was, when I saw the warning, I started paging back through earlier posts to figure out what set it off (so that I could better understand the how the admins interpret the rules--I got de-repped a few years ago when someone else got a mod warning for bumping an old thread, then I got slammed for daring to ask what the proper procedure should have been--I'm still trying to figure out just what the rules are; "reasonable" is a very subjective concept).
> 
> But I couldn't find anything there that I thought was particularly personal. (A brief panic went through my head: "Oh no, has MT gone police state? The only way to learn the laws is to unwittingly break one!") Then I got to this part where you say that the posts that crossed the line had already been removed. ("Whew!)



Some of the posts that were removed to moved to "The Great Deabate".  You can view them, however the thread is locked.  The reason for all of this, is that the thread was going off topic.  Some thread drift is bound to happen, however, the course of this drift was pointless.  As for MT being a police state...lol...no, don't worry, we're not running around censoring things left and right.  Usually a nudge will suffice, if things are drifting too far off course.  In certain circumstances, it is necessary to remove a post.  

Hope that answered your question.  If you have any other questions, feel free to PM me.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Archtkd said:


> How does this connect to Manny's original post and his nostalgia about training with an old school taekwondoin of the Jidokwan lineage in Mexico?



It's at least as relevant as miguksaram's post which insults "oldschool taekwondoin."

Pax,

Chris


----------



## miguksaram

chrispillertkd said:


> It's at least as relevant as miguksaram's post which insults "oldschool taekwondoin."
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Reread the post.  It is a jab at someone's perception of what Old school TKD is, not a shot at Old School Taekwondoin'.  I am personally more old school than new school myself.


----------



## chrispillertkd

I did read it. Kong Soo Do's post is easily as relevant as yours was.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Archtkd

Manny said:


> Jorge has to emigrate and left my City around 1994-95 at that time I was just married, working and had quit TKD so I returned to Jido Kwan Central but nothing was the same, the relation beetwen G.M. Alvite was very good but not one of my former classmates was there, i was overweight, slow very slow and felt like a dinosaur with the new guys, I pushed myself alot trying to emulate the old days but can't stand the rithm of the working out sessions, blisters,burns, pain,lactid acid made me feel like I was a looser so I quit again.
> 
> It was till 2007 that I found the nice dojang I am part off, my new master listen to me, give me advises and took me below his wing and slow but steady put me in better shape and slowly a good relationship began to the point to make me his senior instructor. It was trough Hwarang Organization and head master that I got inside TKD again, right now I have an status inside Hwarang TKD and a very nie relationship with my master, in some ways I took him like my mentor.



Thanks to all the noise in this thread. I missed this point, which I think is the crux of the issues in debate. Are you now in shape to practice serious old or new school taekwondo?


----------



## Archtkd

miguksaram said:


> I'm sure our feelings won't be hurt just as I'm sure you will just run over to your other board and complain over there about how you are treated here by us and they can give you the sympathetic pat on the back you are craving.  Nuff said.



I don't and never want to hold a position in the censorship committee, but I think this is uncalled for.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Manny is a very good friend.  I've had many good discussions with him here and on my own board.  I contacted him to see if he had any issues with what I've been posting in regards to his thread (he is the OP).  He doesn't want to be involved with any issues, but he didn't express any issues with my posts.  Thank you sir.


----------



## Manny

ralphmcpherson said:


> This is exactly the situation with wtf clubs in my area. They are 100% geared toward the olympic sparring. My friends who train at these clubs come and train with me at my house occasionally and when it comes to anything to do with olympic sparring they are experts. They know that this counters that, but this wont counter that unless you do a back kick but that wont usually score unless you turn your foot this way etc etc. Every last thing they do is in realation to olympic sparring ruleset. It is their whole focus. One of them is a second degree black belt and when we do punching drills on my bag its obvious he has never been taught to punch properly. When a mate of mine asked him why he cant punch, his response was "because punches rarely score". I know this is not representative of every wtf club, but in my area it desribes most wtf clubs, and from what manny says, its a representation of his area also.



Thank you so much, this is the thing in the dojangs I know, Olimpic Sparring sells and sells well, that's what the people see on tv and that's what they want to emulate, however they don't know TKD is much more than that and the sambonims see the $$$$ and spend most of the class time doing COMPTITION DRILLS becuase they want to set a group of competitors and to go touring the state/country compiting and wining medals because when yoiu get more medals the local news go to you dojang for intervies or photo sessions and this  sells and this is a vicius circle.

WTF/Olimpic/Saprring SELLS and very well, so that's why a large quantuty of dojangs right here in my city the thing that do is teaching footwork,kicking drills,sport sparring techs and leaves beside the other stuff.

Don't own or run a dojang so my living or income does not come from a comercial dojang, yes I wish some day have a little space for me where I can teach teens and adults the whole TKD concept, focusing in the MA and then in the sport part of it not in reverse.

Manny


----------



## mastercole

The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan?  No one knows.  It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.

True "old school" or "traditional Taekwondo" is following your biggest seniors. NOT to follow them means you are not old school, even if you think you are practicing some middle block version from 1957.

Find out what Kwan you are from, try asking the most senior leaders of that Kwan this question and see what you find out.


----------



## ETinCYQX

"Old school" to me means mid to late 1990's with Park's Tae Kwon Do, in my own little martial arts career. While I'm glad for the PTF and my experience with them, I would not consider that the good old days. We've moved forward by leaps and bounds since then and I think it's important to not have too much of a rose tint when looking backwards.


----------



## mastercole

Manny said:


> Thank you so much, this is the thing in the dojangs I know, Olimpic Sparring sells and sells well, that's what the people see on tv and that's what they want to emulate, however they don't know TKD is much more than that and the sambonims see the $$$$ and spend most of the class time doing COMPTITION DRILLS becuase they want to set a group of competitors and to go touring the state/country compiting and wining medals because when yoiu get more medals the local news go to you dojang for intervies or photo sessions and this  sells and this is a vicius circle.
> 
> WTF/Olimpic/Saprring SELLS and very well, so that's why a large quantuty of dojangs right here in my city the thing that do is teaching footwork,kicking drills,sport sparring techs and leaves beside the other stuff.
> 
> Don't own or run a dojang so my living or income does not come from a comercial dojang, yes I wish some day have a little space for me where I can teach teens and adults the whole TKD concept, focusing in the MA and then in the sport part of it not in reverse.
> 
> Manny



There is a big opportunity right in front of you.

Olympic Taekwondo will continue to grow and wise instructors will ride that wave. Olympic Taekwondo catches peoples attention. So-called "Old School" does not, it has failed, and no one wants it. Olympic Taekwondo has brought many people in Mexico to Taekwondo. It's a very successful vehicle, just as it has been in over 200 other nations.

Quite a success story don't you think?  You have to see the opportunities Manny. You want to teach a full Kukkiwon curriculum, not just Olympic sparring?  You need students first. How are you going to get this students?  Olympic Taekwondo is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, so teach it, then as time goes on you will have the chance to teach more and more people the whole curriculum.


----------



## dancingalone

mastercole said:


> The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan?  No one knows.  It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.



Clearly 'old school' is a relative term.  For me, I think it is hard style training based on kata, hard sparring, makiware/taiyong bong (sp?), and two person 1 & 3 step sparring practice.  From the hints left in books such as those written by GM CHO Sihak 'Henry' and GM SON Duk Sung, I conclude they likely would have thought the same.


----------



## Archtkd

mastercole said:


> The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan?  No one knows.  It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.
> 
> True "old school" or "traditional Taekwondo" is following your biggest seniors. NOT to follow them means you are not old school, even if you think you are practicing some middle block version from 1957.
> 
> Find out what Kwan you are from, try asking the most senior leaders of that Kwan this question and see what you find out.



I'd agree. After testing for my 5th dan a couple of months ago, I tried to prod my most senior teacher, a 9th dan of the Chang Moo Kwan about training in the "old days" compared to what he has taught me what he witnessed in our dojang. He surprised me by saying he didn't see much differences. He was kind of pleased to see we have an early 6:15 a.m., class, which he said was a common thing in Korea. In general, this is a man, who prefers to focus on the present, has a total embrace of the Kukkiwon ideal, and has never made his kwan lineage an an issue of attention.


----------



## chrispillertkd

Archtkd said:


> I'd agree. After testing for my 5th dan a couple of months ago, I tried to prod my most senior teacher, a 9th dan of the Chang Moo Kwan about training in the "old days" compared to what he has taught me what he witnessed in our dojang. He surprised me by saying he didn't see much differences.



I'd be interested in hearing what kind of training you do in your school and when your instructor entered the Chang Moo Kwan.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## ralphmcpherson

miguksaram said:


> Someone neg rep'd me for this, saying I'm being closed minded.  The irony is that the realistic training is something I feel has merit.  I am a firm believer of programs such as RMCAT, as do the other two people who I addressed this to. However, the bottom line is that old school TKD did not train in this fashion.  If anything the RMCAT training would be considered more new school.  So to the person who neg rep'd me...whatever.  Instead of you accusing me of being closed minded perhaps, you should do better research on how 99% of the old school TKD was taught and step outside of your fantasy world of how you thought it was done.



I was not the one who gave you negative rep, but kong soo do always conducts himself in a very courteous manner, he is never rude or sarcastic. Your post typified what goes wrong on these threads. Sarcasm is uncalled for. You cant type a post like that and then be surprised that someone negative repped you.


----------



## Manny

Archtkd said:


> Manny/ What are the demographics of people who train at your dojang? Is it predominantly children, youth, adults, or older adults. How many people of your your age , experience and station in life train there? If you have many people interested in more balanced training a the dojang, you could create classes to do that. It seem to be like you've already started doing that.



In this order: 1.-Children (a lot), 2.-Teens (many), 3.-Mom's (mmm around 6), 4.-men (3 including me). The men class is the one I teach, two students and myself, yes there was a time we were 7 men but it most of them quit, for what I have herd it's dificult for working men go to dojang afther work, damn even for me it's dificult to go teaching because I leave office exausted but the love for TKD/MA droves me to dojang twice a week, there are some times I go to train with the kids (this class is very cardio) like two weeks ago that I've got a hamstring pull. There is another guy who some times apears to dojang he's quite inconsitente (a yellow belt) when he apears in dojang with the other two guys the class get very cool.

Manny


----------



## Manny

mastercole said:


> There is a big opportunity right in front of you.
> 
> Olympic Taekwondo will continue to grow and wise instructors will ride that wave. Olympic Taekwondo catches peoples attention. So-called "Old School" does not, it has failed, and no one wants it. Olympic Taekwondo has brought many people in Mexico to Taekwondo. It's a very successful vehicle, just as it has been in over 200 other nations.
> 
> Quite a success story don't you think? You have to see the opportunities Manny. You want to teach a full Kukkiwon curriculum, not just Olympic sparring? You need students first. How are you going to get this students? Olympic Taekwondo is part of the Kukkiwon curriculum, so teach it, then as time goes on you will have the chance to teach more and more people the whole curriculum.



I must agree with you this time, the most sucessful martial bussiness in my city are the TKD dojangs. Number 1 sport in my country is Soccer then I can say that maybe TKD (talkinga bout children) however swiming classes and maybe base ball are high too. However TKD has caught the attention of moms who take their kids to the dojang.

TKD not only forges character and values on children but also help them to do exercise and as my sambonim says TKD helps to stay away from the couch, the chips and sodas,the nintendo or exbox and from the idiot cage (TV) and internet.

Manny


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> True "old school" or "traditional Taekwondo" is following your biggest seniors. NOT to follow them means you are not old school, even if you think you are practicing some middle block version from 1957. Find out what Kwan you are from, try asking the most senior leaders of that Kwan this question and see what you find out.



Never thought about it that way. Good point. From that perspective, then that would make you and I old school, because our main focus is to seek out, learn from and follow our biggest kwan seniors, including our kwan jang. And then we go and try to share what our big seniors tell us how they wish things to be. What I find strange is that often times there will be some who get really upset about the things we share which were told to us by our big seniors, saying that they are "old school" or "traditional" and therefore they do not need to listen to what we have to say, that we are wrong, that we are being disrespectful. I don't think they realize that you and I really aren't making any of this up, that this stuff we share isn't from us, but rather from the biggest seniors that we have sought out and learned from. So in reality, the angry people aren't fighting with us, they are really arguing and fighting with the biggest seniors. They are simply trying to kill us, because we are the messengers.


----------



## mastercole

Manny said:


> I must agree with you this time, the most sucessful martial bussiness in my city are the TKD dojangs. Number 1 sport in my country is Soccer then I can say that maybe TKD (talkinga bout children) however swiming classes and maybe base ball are high too. However TKD has caught the attention of moms who take their kids to the dojang.
> 
> TKD not only forges character and values on children but also help them to do exercise and as my sambonim says TKD helps to stay away from the couch, the chips and sodas,the nintendo or exbox and from the idiot cage (TV) and internet.
> 
> Manny



Exactly, once they like the Taekwondo, then you can start teaching them more and more about all parts of Taekwondo.  It is a good chance.


----------



## Gorilla

Not quite sure why you guys get so upset with each other.  It is fun to read.  Old school... New School funny...train the way you want who cares.  May be if we all really listened to each other and put away our agendas we could all learn from each other.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Gorilla said:


> Not quite sure why you guys get so upset with each other.  It is fun to read.  Old school... New School funny...train the way you want who cares.  May be if we all really listened to each other and put away our agendas we could all learn from each other.


Amen to that, although you will notice the "old school" brigade regularly aknowledge the skill and effort required to be a good "sports" guy, but the "sports" people will say the "old school" guys are 'not moving with the times' or 'arent old school at all' or 'being misled by old, bitter grandmasters' etc. It has to work both ways. I think the only negative thing I have ever said regarding sports tkd is that the ruleset is probably not the best for training real self defence, and the wider martial arts community (not just restricted to the official kkw sign up commitee) generally agree on this point. In fact, if Im off the mark by saying this then go to the general section of martial talk and start a thread asking "is olympic style tkd sparring beneficial to real self defence training?", and see what answers you get from the 'wider' MA community.


----------



## mastercole

Gorilla said:


> Not quite sure why you guys get so upset with each other.  It is fun to read.  Old school... New School funny...train the way you want who cares.  May be if we all really listened to each other and put away our agendas we could all learn from each other.



I to believe that folks should train how they like. However, if they decide to make public statements about their training or mine that I know is incorrect, I can decide to comment back. Why not?


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Amen to that, although you will notice the "old school" brigade regularly aknowledge the skill and effort required to be a good "sports" guy, but the "sports" people will say the "old school" guys are 'not moving with the times' or 'arent old school at all' or 'being misled by old, bitter grandmasters' etc. It has to work both ways. I think the only negative thing I have ever said regarding sports tkd is that the ruleset is probably not the best for training real self defence, and the wider martial arts community (not just restricted to the official kkw sign up commitee) generally agree on this point. In fact, if Im off the mark by saying this then go to the general section of martial talk and start a thread asking "is olympic style tkd sparring beneficial to real self defence training?", and see what answers you get from the 'wider' MA community.



A person would have to know something about both, first, to even begin to understand.  I know about both, do you?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> A person would have to know something about both, first, to even begin to understand.  I know about both, do you?


To what degree? I train with wtf guys if thats what you mean. I think you'd be surprised how many of the wing chun, bjj, karate, ninjitsu, muay thai etc guys here actually started out in wtf tkd, so their opinions would be quite valid in my opinion.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I to believe that folks should train how they like. However, if they decide to make public statements about their training or mine that I know is incorrect, I can decide to comment back. Why not?


Because they are incorrect in your 'opinion'. Believe it or not, your opinion is not gospel. In my opinion, you are incorrect, but my opinion is also not gospel, just an opinion. You and your offsider regulary make remarks about my training and you have no idea about the way I train except for a few snippets Ive discussed here, and without actually seeing one of our classes you are merely making assumptions.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> To what degree? I train with wtf guys if thats what you mean. I think you'd be surprised how many of the wing chun, bjj, karate, ninjitsu, muay thai etc guys here actually started out in wtf tkd, so their opinions would be quite valid in my opinion.



I did not know any one could start out in WTF Taekwondo, do you mean Kukkiwon Taekwondo or are you telling me you have WTF fighters training at your dojang?


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I did not know any one could start out in WTF Taekwondo, do you mean Kukkiwon Taekwondo or are you telling me you have WTF fighters training at your dojang?


Sorry kkw was what I meant. We do get a few kkw guys come to our dojang, we got two new ones on tuesday night actually. I was refering in my previous post to friends of mine who do kkw tkd. I train with mates at my house on a saturday morning and I have a couple of kkw friends and from time to time they bring guys from their class along and we all train together and share information. Its always a good session.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Because they are incorrect in your 'opinion'. Believe it or not, your opinion is not gospel. In my opinion, you are incorrect, but my opinion is also not gospel, just an opinion. You and your offsider regulary make remarks about my training and you have no idea about the way I train except for a few snippets Ive discussed here, and without actually seeing one of our classes you are merely making assumptions.



Well, in my humble opinion and of course looking at my background in Taekwondo I am probably not qualified to have an opinion about Taekwondo, from our original discussion its my opinion that you lack the most basic knowledge about Taekwondo, you did not even understand your own Poomsae, but that's cool, maybe I am mistaken and you can fill me in, but again it's just my opinion and surely I could be mistaken. Oh, keep telling me how incorrect my information is, why not, it's got to be a lot of fun!


----------



## Markku P

mastercole said:


> The thing is no one can identify what "old school" Taekwondo training actually is. Is it 1959 Moo Duk Kwan, 1944 Chung Do Kwan, 1960 Jidokwan, 1972 Chang Moo Kwan?  No one knows.  It's just a claim that holds no water, and it holds no water according to the leaders of those Kwan.
> 
> True "old school" or "traditional Taekwondo" is following your biggest seniors. NOT to follow them means you are not old school, even if you think you are practicing some middle block version from 1957.
> 
> Find out what Kwan you are from, try asking the most senior leaders of that Kwan this question and see what you find out.



I pretty much agree with this. My teacher GM Dae JIn Hwang was from Jidokwan ( I think ) and he never spoke about "traditional" Taekwondo. By by the way, does anyone recognize my teacher's name? I think he was well known a long time ago?

/Markku P.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Well, in my humble opinion and of course looking at my background in Taekwondo I am probably not qualified to have an opinion about Taekwondo, from our original discussion its my opinion that you lack the most basic knowledge about Taekwondo, you did not even understand your own Poomsae, but that's cool, maybe I am mistaken and you can fill me in, but again it's just my opinion and surely I could be mistaken. Oh, keep telling me how incorrect my information is, why not, it's got to be a lot of fun!


It is fun, and Im thick skinned and dont take offence to anything anyone posts, its all in good spirit. I am curious though, what did I not understand about my own poomsae? I remeber a converstaion we had regarding poomsae and I remeber not understanding what you were talking about because you were using korean terminology I didnt understand. I later realised the reason I was questioning the poomsae was because we do it differently and so was not understanding your take on it. Something to do with short stances from memory (which our GM removed from the forms).


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Sorry kkw was what I meant. We do get a few kkw guys come to our dojang, we got two new ones on tuesday night actually. I was refering in my previous post to friends of mine who do kkw tkd. I train with mates at my house on a saturday morning and I have a couple of kkw friends and from time to time they bring guys from their class along and we all train together and share information. Its always a good session.



Ah.. so it was not WTF guys, I see   My original recommendation was that a person in Taekwondo should experience training and sparring with an elite Taekwondo athlete, for the experience, for the learning. See experience is much better than NON-experience, don't you think?  Experience in both, the elite old school style, and elite new school style, would give one a well rounded experience of their martial art, in this case Taekwondo.  But hey, I know that sounds crazy.

I know it can be a big bad scary thing, so, it's not for everyone, in my humble lack of experience and unqualified, and, possibly mistaken opinion


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Ah.. so it was not WTF guys, I see   My original recommendation was that a person in Taekwondo should experience training and sparring with an elite Taekwondo athlete, for the experience, for the learning. See experience is much better than NON-experience, don't you think?  Experience in both, the elite old school style, and elite new school style, would give one a well rounded experience of their martial art, in this case Taekwondo.  But hey, I know that sounds crazy.
> 
> I know it can be a big bad scary thing, so, it's not for everyone, in my humble lack of experience and unqualified, and, possibly mistaken opinion


I actually agree that sparring people from different disciplines is a positive thing. For this reason I have sparred muay thai guys, zendokai guys and shotokan guys, its a great learning curve. And for the record, sparring muay thai guys is a big scary thing, almost as scary as zendokai guys, they go really hard. Im glad you are also clarifying that these things are just your opinion.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> It is fun, and Im thick skinned and dont take offence to anything posts. I am curious though, what did I not understand about my own poomsae? I remeber a converstaion we had regarding poomsae and I remeber not understanding what you were talking about because you were using korean terminology I didnt understand. I later realised the reason I was questioning the poomsae was because we do it differently and so was not understanding your take on it. Something to do with short stances from memory (which our GM removed from the forms).



I know, I was using that tricky Korean terminology to explain tricky Korean concepts of Korean Poomsae that you practiced for how many years? I mean you are a Korean martial arts (Taekwondo) Black Belt (I forget the degree, sorry). All this, in my humble opinion was maybe .......difficult errrrr something?  Not sure, I uhh......errrr., well we never really got to the bottom of that whole thing did we?  No need to try again.  Might be good to stay on topic.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> I actually agree that sparring people from different disciplines is a positive thing. For this reason I have sparred muay thai guys, zendokai guys and shotokan guys, its a great learning curve. And for the record, sparring muay thai guys is a big scary thing, almost as scary as zendokai guys, they go really hard.



Fantastic, certainly no need to discuss on anything Taekwondo with me, seems like you are already in the thick of it. Great job!


----------



## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I know, I was using that tricky Korean terminology to explain tricky Korean concepts of Korean Poomsae that you practiced for how many years? I mean you are a Korean martial arts (Taekwondo) Black Belt (I forget the degree, sorry). All this, in my humble opinion was maybe .......difficult errrrr something?  Not sure, I uhh......errrr., well we never really go to the bottom of that whole thing did we?  No need to try again.  Might be good to stay on topic.


I think you'll find many tkdists dont use/understand korean terminology. We had a thread about it here once and I was surprised how many people dont use korean language in their dojang.


----------



## Dirty Dog

mastercole said:


> I know, I was using that tricky Korean terminology to explain tricky Korean concepts of Korean Poomsae that you practiced for how many years? I mean you are a Korean martial arts (Taekwondo) Black Belt (I forget the degree, sorry). All this, in my humble opinion was maybe .......difficult errrrr something?  Not sure, I uhh......errrr., well we never really got to the bottom of that whole thing did we?  No need to try again.  Might be good to stay on topic.



You know, maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that maybe, just maybe, your posts would be better received if you left out the condescension, arrogance and general rudeness. You know, talk TO people instead of AT them or DOWN to them. 
Just my opinion...


Sent from my iPhone using TapaTalk.


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## ralphmcpherson

Dirty Dog said:


> You know, maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that maybe, just maybe, your posts would be better received if you left out the condescension, arrogance and general rudeness. You know, talk TO people instead of AT them or DOWN to them.
> Just my opinion...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using TapaTalk.


Thank you. Ive been saing this for ages. I may not agree with people but I always try not to lower myself to sarcasm and condescending remarks. Mastercole obviously takes offence to the fact I said his views are only 'opinions'. Now, Id love to think that because mastercole has many years experience in tkd that what he says is gospel, BUT, my instructor has 42 years experience in tkd, is a black belt in 2 other arts and has trained in various countries all around the world and yet his 'opinions' differ greatly to mastercole's. Im not saying my instructor's opinions are more correct or more accurate, but this proves that all people will have their own take on martial arts based on 'their' experiences. People become condescending when they believe their opinions are gospel and someone dares disagree with them. If you know everything, then why come here, this is a place to learn.


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## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think you'll find many tkdists dont use/understand korean terminology. We had a thread about it here once and I was surprised how many people dont use korean language in their dojang.



I sure you are 100% correct   I'll suggest that it might be good to know though if you want to debate a Taekwondoin on what is and what is not correct in regard to Taekwondo, of course maybe not, what do I know.


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## mastercole

Dirty Dog said:


> You know, maybe I'm crazy, but it seems to me that maybe, just maybe, your posts would be better received if you left out the condescension, arrogance and general rudeness. You know, talk TO people instead of AT them or DOWN to them.
> Just my opinion...
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using TapaTalk.



Well Mark, I really don't care how you, or Ralph receive my post, in my humble opinion. I am not here to win fans or to win you or Ralph over to anything, I am here to discuss and see what we can discover, you and Ralph are the ones who likes to argue for arguments sake, because I have never seen either of you offer any facts in any discussion on Taekwondo, in my humble opinion of course.  And if you want to talk about condescension, arrogance and general rudeness, it was you who called me "condescension, arrogance and general rudeness" look in the mirror, in my humblest of opinions.

Please get back on topic and not derail the thread.


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## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thank you. Ive been saing this for ages. I may not agree with people but I always try not to lower myself to sarcasm and condescending remarks. Mastercole obviously takes offence to the fact I said his views are only 'opinions'. Now, Id love to think that because mastercole has many years experience in tkd that what he says is gospel, BUT, my instructor has 42 years experience in tkd, is a black belt in 2 other arts and has trained in various countries all around the world and yet his 'opinions' differ greatly to mastercole's. Im not saying my instructor's opinions are more correct or more accurate, but this proves that all people will have their own take on martial arts based on 'their' experiences. People become condescending when they believe their opinions are gospel and someone dares disagree with them. If you know everything, then why come here, this is a place to learn.



I don't want you to agree with any of the facts, or opinions that I post here and present. But I don't post much opinion, I post a lot of facts, complete with documents, photos, vidoe, etc to back up the facts. Actually, I know that you will ignore them, but I am not posting them for you, you can just argue, that's cool, that's what you do best, in my humble opinion. I am posting this stuff for the folks that will get a benefit.

Please get back on topic


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## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> I don't want you to agree with any of the facts, or opinions that I post here and present. But I don't post much opinion, I post a lot of facts, complete with documents, photos, vidoe, etc to back up the facts. Actually, I know that you will ignore them, but I am not posting them for you, you can just argue, that's cool, that's what you do best, in my humble opinion. I am posting this stuff for the folks that will get a benefit.
> 
> Please get back on topic


you may want to point me in the direction of a thread where I debated anything that is 'fact'. I will debate when people say kukkiwon is the best form of tkd, when someone says 'sport' tkd translates to real self defence, when people say kukkiwon GMs owe it to students to give out kukki certs, when people say punching shouldnt be scored in olympic tkd, when people say olympic tkd has been a positive for tkd, when people say kukkiwon has 'standardised' tkd, when people suggest 'independent' clubs arent as good as kukki clubs, when people say 2 year black belts are a good idea, when people say kids should have black belts etc etc. All of those things are a matter of OPINION, there is no fact. I am more than happy to debate those things on a friendly level and always point out that my views are opinion only. When it comes to factual things such as dates, places, times, notable tkdists past and present, kwans, lineages etc you will find I rarely comment as I really couldnt care less about those topics. You may not believe me, but I respect your opinion, sure I dont always agree with it, but I value the opinions of experienced tkdoin. Your off sider used to debate with me, and was forceful with his opinions and extremely rude and eventually gave me the old "to me you are dead" line. You, on the other hand have consistently disagreed with me (which is understandable considering our differing backgrounds), but have for the most part done your best to stay respectful and have helped me with information I have seeked. Just because we disagree doesnt mean we need to sink to the level of your mate. I hope we can continue to debate our differences without it getting personal. Sorry for the rant. And I agree, lets get back on topic


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## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> you may want to point me in the direction of a thread where I debated anything that is 'fact'. I will debate when people say kukkiwon is the best form of tkd, when someone says 'sport' tkd translates to real self defence, when people say kukkiwon GMs owe it to students to give out kukki certs, when people say punching shouldnt be scored in olympic tkd, when people say olympic tkd has been a positive for tkd, when people say kukkiwon has 'standardised' tkd, when people suggest 'independent' clubs arent as good as kukki clubs, when people say 2 year black belts are a good idea, when people say kids should have black belts etc etc. All of those things are a matter of OPINION, there is no fact. I am more than happy to debate those things on a friendly level and always point out that my views are opinion only. When it comes to factual things such as dates, places, times, notable tkdists past and present, kwans, lineages etc you will find I rarely comment as I really couldnt care less about those topics.



Your 100% right. Wow, what the heck was I thinking. But, you know, I think we might want to get back on topic.  See this argument that you and Mark want, it's going to draw in the MT referees and they don't like all this getting off topic/arguing stuff, plus, it's messing up Manny's thread. So if you can, get into some FACTS, or not, just some opinion about whatever you think, but it might be best to stop concerning your self with me so much, even though I post all this disturbing information that causes a jumble in some people minds and shakes their beliefs, uh, not yours of course, and again, this is all my in my under qualified and under experienced opinion. What do you think?  Good idea eh?   I think it's a good idea, so I'm going to kind of ignore you and Mark so we all don't get into trouble , and get on with Manny's old school thing.


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## ralphmcpherson

mastercole said:


> Your 100% right. Wow, what the heck was I thinking. But, you know, I think we might want to get back on topic.  See this argument that you and Mark want, it's going to draw in the MT referees and they don't like all this getting off topic/arguing stuff, plus, it's messing up Manny's thread. So if you can, get into some FACTS, or not, just some opinion about whatever you think, but it might be best to stop concerning your self with me so much, even though I post all this disturbing information that causes a jumble in some people minds and shakes their beliefs, uh, not yours of course, and again, this is all my in my under qualified and under experienced opinion. What do you think?  Good idea eh?   I think it's a good idea, so I'm going to kind of ignore you and Mark so we all don't get into trouble , and get on with Manny's old school thing.


sorry I just edited my previous post as you were posting, you may want to give it a read.


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## mastercole

Markku P said:


> I pretty much agree with this. My teacher GM Dae JIn Hwang was from Jidokwan ( I think ) and he never spoke about "traditional" Taekwondo. By by the way, does anyone recognize my teacher's name? I think he was well known a long time ago?
> 
> /Markku P.



That name sound familiar. There are so many masters that went around the world it's amazing. Is he still around, do you communicate with him or any of his seniors?  My roots are Jidokwan and I am actually a member.


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## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> sorry I just edited my previous post as you were posting, you may want to give it a read.




Yeah, yeah cool.  Let's move on now, thanks so much.


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## Markku P

mastercole said:


> That name sound familiar. There are so many masters that went around the world it's amazing. Is he still around, do you communicate with him or any of his seniors?  My roots are Jidokwan and I am actually a member.



He is not active anymore and I have moved away from Finland where he is located. He is the founder of Finnish Taekwondo. By the way, I found this from "modern history of Taekwondo"

"Ji Do Kwan's distinguished difference from other schools was mainly based on Kyorugi (sparring). When Taekwondo tournaments became active from the beginning of the 1960's to the 1970's the Ji Do Kwan distinguished itself. The major representatives were Lee Seung Wan, Cho Jum Sun, Hwang Dae Jin, Choi Young Ryul and more."

Sorry if I am off the topic..I was just curious 

/Markku P


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## Markku P

Master Cole, I would like to know more about Jidokwan so is't OK to PM for you?

/Markku P.


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## mastercole

Markku P said:


> He is not active anymore and I have moved away from Finland where he is located. He is the founder of Finnish Taekwondo. By the way, I found this from "modern history of Taekwondo"
> 
> "Ji Do Kwan's distinguished difference from other schools was mainly based on Kyorugi (sparring). When Taekwondo tournaments became active from the beginning of the 1960's to the 1970's the Ji Do Kwan distinguished itself. The major representatives were Lee Seung Wan, Cho Jum Sun, Hwang Dae Jin, Choi Young Ryul and more."
> 
> Sorry if I am off the topic..I was just curious
> 
> /Markku P



Oh, now I know who you are talking about!  I saw his photo in one of the Taekwondo Jidokwan Annual Yearbooks.


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## mastercole

Markku P said:


> Master Cole, I would like to know more about Jidokwan so is't OK to PM for you?
> 
> /Markku P.



Certainly.  There is also a website with a lot of information   www.taekwondojidokwan.com


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## jks9199

Thread locked, pending yet another review.

jks9199
Asst Administrator


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