# Looking for Ninjitsu Training Partners in the NW Indiana Area



## ronin7411

Hi, I stay in the Northwest Indiana area and train at the World Gym in Highland, Indiana because that is the only gym out in my area that will allow their members to spar and train in the martial arts openly. I'm basically trying to find a sparring partner to help me with my training in Ninjitsu and to also help me open the only Ninjitsu dojo in the Northwest Indiana area. I'm not style discriminatory as long as the person wants to help me accomplish my goals as well as theirs I'll be more than happy to train and spar with them. Currently the only things I can bring to sparring with anyone is 2 pairs of Top Contender MMA gloves (one Large the other Regular), 3 Velcro connecting mats, an Everlast Punching Bag, and my membership to World Gym to use their facilities to train at. If you can help me out or are looking for another person to help you with your studies in Ninjitsu or in another style in the Northwest Indiana area please contact me at ronin7411@yahoo.com to see if we can talk about training and sparring with each other. Also bring your friends and any other people you know that stay in the Northwest Indiana area that would like to train in Ninjitsu as well. The more people that I can get to spar and train with us the better for everyone working with me. Thanks to anyone that can help me out.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Here are links to two reputable Bujinkan Dojo's.  Note neither are looking for training partners but are indeed real teacher's in the art.  If you contact them they may take you on as a student. 

http://columbiacitybujinkan.webs.com/Home.html

http://www.bloomingtonbujinkan.com/


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## ronin7411

Thank you Brian for your assistance but I stay way too far away from them (Mapquested both dojos along time ago and a 2-3 hour drive is a bit too costly now in days on my budget) and I'm working on a very limited budget plus when most schools train at around 5pm-7pm I'm in college classes at those times. I'm not close minded so if the person wants to study another style different from Ninjitsu I'm willing to work with them as well. As long as the person stays in the NW Indiana area and has a desire to master a martial arts style no matter what it is or what country of origin the style is from I'm down to train with them if they are down to train with me. Again thanks Brian for your assistance.


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## jks9199

If you check around the school, lots of them have several options available.

But if you're interested in training in the Bujinkan, why not contact the schools?  It may turn out that they have students in your area who would form a training group -- or let you join theirs.  If you make excuses... that's all you'll get.


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## ronin7411

I did that already the Bujinkan did have a school out here and they closed it down to merge with one of their Chicago subdivisions. I've also contacted the ones in Chicago and tried to contact someone that stayed in my area to do some Ninjitsu (proof will be provided as well) training as well and that only lead to go to school to train and the guy I did find in my area never got back to me to do some Ninjitsu training. So since Kutaki No Maru forum's members will stand me up and only lead you on until you get fed up of their antics lead me to here to find people to train with. I'm not a style bashing jerk either if the person doesn't want to study Ninjitsu but another style that is totally different from mine go on ahead I can help you out as well with mastering your style too as long as you help me master Ninjitsu. I like to cross train as well so if its a person that is a grappler, striker, reality based, or a traditionalist it doesn't bother me as long as they want to train with me I'm happy. 

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4552&forum=23


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## Brian R. VanCise

Actually on Kutaki No Mura they were giving you excellent advise! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





*Find a real teacher and learn!*  Really you have lot's of options within and hour or two so if you really wish to learn Budo Taijutsu then it is there for you if you are willing to make the sacrifice.  When I first started training I drove an hour and within a month I drove and hour and a half every week to my instructors home.  If you wish these specific skill sets you have to be willing to sacrifice and buying books, dvd's, etc. is a really poor substitute from actually finding a teacher! (really poor and your skill sets will invariably be damaged) 

Now if you train on your own with some friends, etc. do not think that you are training in Ninjutsu because you are not!  *You need a real, live, living and breathing instructor!*





Wishing you all the best!


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## Bruno@MT

+1 on what Brian said. Even if making that trip many times per week is not practical, you can go to class every other week or so and practise on your own. That way you can train at home, and use the class to correct your mistakes and get new material to study. If you find a sensei willing to do this, then it could be a good way to proceed.


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## Kajowaraku

The keyword here is "sacrifice". Not always easy, but the real deal always comes at a price, even if you don't have to drive for hours. Just slapping the label "ninjitsu" on physical combat training is easy, but ultimatly deceptive. You need a teacher, honestly. Making a sacrifice or being patient in getting there will only make you appreciate it more when you accomplish it, and will give you much more satisfaction in the end.

Either way: good luck.

Edit: If you're really looking for a teacher closer by: i think Fujin Dojo (genbukan) is not that far from you either. http://www.fujindojo.com/.


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## ronin7411

Thanks for your help everyone but this is what hurts me as well I got to school at 6:30 pm so I'm looking for people that can do some afternoon or some morning training. If there is anybody on this forum that stays in my area drop me a line it doesn't matter what style you study or want to study as long as we can get train with each other. (Would of replied earlier but got mid-terms this week)


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## ronin7411

Well, I finally found someone to train with me he's currently in the Army and uses Modern Army Combatives plus he's trying out for Special Forces so that helps me out in the combat aspect of using my martial arts skills in the real world. We're still looking for more people to train with in my area so drop me line if you're in the NW Indiana area and are looking for people to train with it doesn't matter what kind of martial arts background you come from as long as you want to train with us you're more than welcome to join us.


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## Shinobi Teikiatsu

Maybe I'm out of line here, but I can't help but notice your reffering to ninjutsu (or budo taijutsu) as ninjitsu, which not many students, or former students tend to do. That said, you also keep insisting that you are not discriminatory and would train in any style. would you mind enlightening me as to what kind of training you have in ninjutsu (considering your original post mentioned a desire to open a dojo, I assume you hold at least a 4th degree black belt ranking?) 

I am in no way attempting to attack you, but I would  very much like to know why, if you are not style discriminatory, you don't simply look for a school that operates in the morning or early afternoon (surely there must be SOME school that offers classes like that)


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## ronin7411

Well, Shinobi as to why I spell Ninjitsu the way I do instead of using Budo Taijitsu, Ninjutsu, Shinobi Jutsu, or the many other variants that Ninjitsu has been called is personal preference. This can also be applied to other styles like how some Kenpo practitioners spell Kenpo with a M instead of a N in example Kempo same style just different spelling. You can also see this applied to Kung Fu stylists that instead of the way we are use to seeing Kung Fu spelled they start off instead of a K but with a G which comes out as Gung Fu but is it still the same Chinese martial art that we have known for all these years yes. 

I also don't have no ranks as well in Ninjitsu which is why I'm looking for people that want to train with me in it that stay in my area. Also I'm doing a recommendation that I was told to do from Kutaki No Maru's forum members that if going to a dojo is too expensive or inconvenient for me I can start a study group then have one of their instructors come and visit me to critique our Ninjitsu movements. Now I'm not going to lie you my main objective with my Ninjitsu training is to get my Instructor Certification to open a dojo out here in my area. This is because the Bujinkan closed the one dojo that was in my area after the MMA/BJJ explosion hit here so I'm bringing a style out here that isn't out here conveniently that really needs to be out here. (In my opinion at the least) I also can provide you the link to the Bujinkan dojo listings which includes people looking for study groups like me as well and one that does is a Genbukan dojo in Chicago and the the other one is at a Bujinkan dojo in the NW side of Chicago which that is only one day out of the week at $90 a month. Which I'm not dumb I know I need more than just one day of out the week in training in Ninjitsu to get to the level that I need and want. Plus Chicago locations are a killer to my budget because of the length of time I got to travel to attend their classes and still keep up with the bills at the house along with other essentials like groceries.       

Also I'm a heavy supporter of cross-training into other styles of the martial arts so if my training partner wants to study another style that isn't Ninjitsu its cool with me as long as we still train with each other and critique each others maneuvers I'm cool. I'm not just style bashing jerk if the person that wants to train with me comes from a different martial arts background than mine I'm not holding anything against them lets just train to improve both of our martial arts expertise. The problem I have with training with the Chicago Ninjitsu groups is that it is way too expensive on my budget and since I got to school at 7pm-9pm I can't attend their formal classes because it cuts into my education.

Shinobi, in my opinion you didn't do no attack towards me you just wanted to know a little bit about me and why I was looking for people to with in Ninjitsu. Also currently I'm training in Army Combatives/Army BJJ with my friend Chase in the morning plus when I get the time to I go to the free Tang Soo Do and Cardio Karate classes that are held in the morning at my gym but my love will always be for Ninjitsu and the style that I truly want to master and teach to the people in my area.

Bujinkan Dojo Directory

http://www.ninjutsu.com/dojos-links_usa.shtml

Chicago Bujinkan Dojos

http://www.sgtidojo.com/index.htm

http://www.hiken.com/ClassSchedule/tabid/353/Default.aspx

Genbukan Dojo in Chicago

http://www.fujindojo.com/schedule.html

Bujinkan Dojos in Indiana

http://goshinbudodojo.com/instructors.html

http://www.bloomingtonbujinkan.com/index.html

Genbukan Dojo in Indiana

http://www.inzenshingroup.com/schedule.html


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## jks9199

ronin7411 said:


> Well, Shinobi as to why I spell Ninjitsu the way I do instead of using Budo Taijitsu, Ninjutsu, Shinobi Jutsu, or the many other variants that Ninjitsu has been called is personal preference. This can also be applied to other styles like how some Kenpo practitioners spell Kenpo with a M instead of a N in example Kempo same style just different spelling. You can also see this applied to Kung Fu stylists that instead of the way we are use to seeing Kung Fu spelled they start off instead of a K but with a G which comes out as Gung Fu but is it still the same Chinese martial art that we have known for all these years yes.


I'm not going to tear into it here -- but if you look around MartialTalk, you'll see some in-depth explanations about why it's ninjutsu, and why the other terms are in use now.  To be blunt, you sound like a fanboy/wannabe right now.


> I also don't have no ranks as well in Ninjitsu which is why I'm looking for people that want to train with me in it that stay in my area. Also I'm doing a recommendation that I was told to do from Kutaki No Maru's forum members that if going to a dojo is too expensive or inconvenient for me I can start a study group then have one of their instructors come and visit me to critique our Ninjitsu movements. Now I'm not going to lie you my main objective with my Ninjitsu training is to get my Instructor Certification to open a dojo out here in my area. This is because the Bujinkan closed the one dojo that was in my area after the MMA/BJJ explosion hit here so I'm bringing a style out here that isn't out here conveniently that really needs to be out here. (In my opinion at the least) I also can provide you the link to the Bujinkan dojo listings which includes people looking for study groups like me as well and one that does is a Genbukan dojo in Chicago and the the other one is at a Bujinkan dojo in the NW side of Chicago which that is only one day out of the week at $90 a month. Which I'm not dumb I know I need more than just one day of out the week in training in Ninjitsu to get to the level that I need and want. Plus Chicago locations are a killer to my budget because of the length of time I got to travel to attend their classes and still keep up with the bills at the house along with other essentials like groceries.


One day of class a week coupled with dedicated training on your own can be a very successful way to train an art.


> Also I'm a heavy supporter of cross-training into other styles of the martial arts so if my training partner wants to study another style that isn't Ninjitsu its cool with me as long as we still train with each other and critique each others maneuvers I'm cool. I'm not just style bashing jerk if the person that wants to train with me comes from a different martial arts background than mine I'm not holding anything against them lets just train to improve both of our martial arts expertise. The problem I have with training with the Chicago Ninjitsu groups is that it is way too expensive on my budget and since I got to school at 7pm-9pm I can't attend their formal classes because it cuts into my education.


How are you going to critique movements and techniques in a style you don't know?  How is someone else going to critique your movements and technique if they don't know what's right?  

Let me give you an analogy.  I'm going to assume that you don't know how to play cricket; not too many people in the US do, right?  So, even if I give you a cricket bat, wicket, and the rest of the gear... how are you going to play it right?  Except the movements of taijutsu are much more complex...


> Shinobi, in my opinion you didn't do no attack towards me you just wanted to know a little bit about me and why I was looking for people to with in Ninjitsu. Also currently I'm training in Army Combatives/Army BJJ with my friend Chase in the morning plus when I get the time to I go to the free Tang Soo Do and Cardio Karate classes that are held in the morning at my gym but my love will always be for Ninjitsu and the style that I truly want to master and teach to the people in my area.



Great goal.  But maybe you should let it wait a little while, and concentrate on your schooling for the moment.  Then, when school is done, and you have a different sort of flexibility in your schedule, you can train and be sure that you're training properly.  For the moment, why not take advantage of the free classes you have available, and keep your eyes open.

Many years back, when I first started formal training in the martial arts, my goal was to learn ninjutsu; Stephen Hayes was writing his books, and on the cover of what seemed like every other issue of Black Belt.  But I couldn't find any schools in the area; resources like the internet were in their infancy at the time.  A few friends came across this class in an obscure martial art almost by accident... and they told me about it.  So, I gave it a try, "until I could find a ninjutsu class."  Well, after about 25 years, I'm still training in that art.  

Don Roley has two relevant blog entries; you can find them HERE.  See the entries titled "You can't learn Bujinkan from DVDs" and "Patchy Bujinkan."


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## ronin7411

Practice and practice is the only way you can master anything in the martial arts then if you add in the unexpected nature of a real street fight in with your training with people from various backgrounds (hint Chase is a grappler and submission expert and I'm a striker and kickboxer I'm improving my ground game with him) you can prepare yourself for any type of situation you can run into in the streets. Also the Kempo/Kenpo schools out in my area use both spellings still along with the Kung Fu/Gung Fu schools in my area along with ones in Chicago. So if they are still using the spelling they like they must obviously don't care of what people think of them using that particular spelling of their style. I wasn't sent from God to please everybody but if I can find someone that is willing to train with me in Ninjitsu or any style period that stays in my area that is open in the mornings I'm willing to work with them if they are willing to work with them.


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## jks9199

ronin7411 said:


> Practice and practice is the only way you can master anything in the martial arts then if you add in the unexpected nature of a real street fight in with your training with people from various backgrounds (hint Chase is a grappler and submission expert and I'm a striker and kickboxer I'm improving my ground game with him) you can prepare yourself for any type of situation you can run into in the streets. Also the Kempo/Kenpo schools out in my area use both spellings still along with the Kung Fu/Gung Fu schools in my area along with ones in Chicago. So if they are still using the spelling they like they must obviously don't care of what people think of them using that particular spelling of their style. I wasn't sent from God to please everybody but if I can find someone that is willing to train with me in Ninjitsu or any style period that stays in my area that is open in the mornings I'm willing to work with them if they are willing to work with them.


Again -- I ask a simple question.

How can you get better practicing if you don't know whether or not you're practicing properly?

Do you think someone who's a great player on Guitar Hero can actually play the guitar from that?  Or do they need an actual guitar teacher to teach them on an instrument with actual strings and frets?

It's not an original statement -- but it sums it up well:
*You've been lied to your whole life; practice doesn't make perfect.  Only PERFECT practice makes perfect!*


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## ronin7411

Well, you can learn how to play a real guitar with Guitar Hero or Rock Band already it does require a little modification right now to do so but they are developing products as we speak to do so commercially and I can provide proof of this too. As for your previous question that is why you ask friends of yours that have experience with that area to give you assistance based upon their experience. Like if you are having a problem with applying a wrist lock in self defense maneuver from a book or video you can ask a friend of yours that has a background in Jiujitsu, Hapkido, Aikido, or Judo to help you out with that lock and apply it properly on you so that you can learn it and then practice it with your friends.

An example of this is one time I was having a problem with learning how to properly apply a Triangle Choke on someone from my back because I wouldn't put the back of my left knee over my right ankle. But my friend Luis who is a professional MMA fighter came by to see me and he saw that I was doing it wrong and showed me the proper way of performing it to make the person on the receiving tap or get their neck broke. (when he applied it on me I could hear my neck straining and stretching would he cranked on it) Then I rolled around with my friend Chase again and then I got the Triangle Choke again on him and tapped him out (after he punched my face in for a couple of minutes:lol. You are right that it is always good to have someone that is highly experienced and a trained instructor to assist you with your expertise in the martial arts but even Luis told me that all martial arts share one thing in common body mechanics.

Then just out of curiosity I asked him to look over the martial arts books and videos that I have to help me train with and he actually told me that the joint locks and chokes in the Ninjitsu books and videos I have are the same holds that he was taught in BJJ but just a little tamer. I truly appreciate the knowledge everyone is giving me but I do agree with him because some of the same joint locks in Aikido are also seen in Hapkido and some of the kicks in Tae Kwon Do are seen in Tang Soo Do. So some martial arts styles use the same maneuvers but just call them different names or change them around a little bit. Also I was the victim of him showing me all of the joint locks and chokes from my videos and books with the only comment he gave to me about them was that he just learned to apply these same locks and chokes while standing up or in close range to the assailant instead of being on the ground trying to apply them.

Learning How To Play a Real Guitar with Guitar Hero    

http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/03/guitar-wizard-guitar-hero-with-a-real-guitar/

http://www.musicwizard.com/i_can_play.php






http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/07/guitar-rising-perfects-the-guitar-hero-with-real-guitars-genre/

http://www.guitarrising.com/about.html


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## Chris Parker

Right. My turn. 

ronin7411, before I get into the post below, I'm going to state a few things categorically. They will probably be repeated below, but repetition can help things sink in...

There is no such thing as "ninjitsu". If you continue to use this term, personal preference or no, you will be treated as someone with no knowledge whatsoever, and any post you make regarding ninjutsu training will be taken in that light. Really, it's not that hard, I mean the "i" and the "u" are right next to each other on the keyboard...

Without instruction you cannot learn a martial art. Period. We'll get to your specific comments below. But without instruction from someone experienced and trained in the art you wish to be learning, you will never be training in that art, you will never be learning it. Period.

Okay, on with the fun. The blue bits will be mine, by the way.



ronin7411 said:


> Well, you can learn how to play a real guitar with Guitar Hero or Rock Band already it does require a little modification right now to do so but they are developing products as we speak to do so commercially and I can provide proof of this too.
> 
> No, you can use Rock Band-like software to gain some understanding of hwo to play, but you cannot use Rock Band with it's plastic buttoned "guitar" controller to learn to play the real instrument. Ask most guitarists if they like games like Guitar Hero and they'll usually start swearing and muttering under their breath. It's damn hard for guitarists, especially if you actually know how to play the song in question, as your hands naturally form the chord shapes you would use, and that is not what the game demands. In other words, Guitar Hero does not a guitarist make. It makes a Guitar Hero player. If you want your martial arts education to be similarly based on incorrect information, habits, and technique, go for it. But it will absolutely not be Ninjutsu.
> 
> For the record, I am a guitarist (as well as a few other instruments), and I hate that game. Hate it. (Leaves swearing and muttering under his breath...)
> 
> As for your previous question that is why you ask friends of yours that have experience with that area to give you assistance based upon their experience. Like if you are having a problem with applying a wrist lock in self defense maneuver from a book or video you can ask a friend of yours that has a background in Jiujitsu, Hapkido, Aikido, or Judo to help you out with that lock and apply it properly on you so that you can learn it and then practice it with your friends.
> 
> Generic, okay. But that in no way makes you training in Ninjutsu. And if you think a martial art is defined by it's techniques, you are way off. And if you are learning from a video or book, stop. They are reference materials for further study at the best, simple wastes of time at worst.
> 
> You seem to be concerned with the concept of physical isolated techniques, and as I said, if you think that is what defines a martial art, you are quite wrong. The techniques are the result of what defines a martial art, not the other way around. Books won't help. Nor will just having a friend come over and "help you out".
> 
> An example of this is one time I was having a problem with learning how to properly apply a Triangle Choke on someone from my back because I wouldn't put the back of my left knee over my right ankle. But my friend Luis who is a professional MMA fighter came by to see me and he saw that I was doing it wrong and showed me the proper way of performing it to make the person on the receiving tap or get their neck broke. (when he applied it on me I could hear my neck straining and stretching would he cranked on it)
> 
> Your friend Luis came by to see you? Where were you doing this? And how were you learning, was someone teaching you? Or was this you playing around with something you got from a book or video? Oh, and a triangle choke isn't really supposed to break a neck, it's a constriction of the carotid arteries using your thigh and the opponents arm, so I'd say that your friend isn't offering the best advice on application.
> 
> Then I rolled around with my friend Chase again and then I got the Triangle Choke again on him and tapped him out (after he punched my face in for a couple of minutes:lol. You are right that it is always good to have someone that is highly experienced and a trained instructor to assist you with your expertise in the martial arts but even Luis told me that all martial arts share one thing in common body mechanics.
> 
> Luis is wrong. Simple as that. And the idea is to get someone experienced in what you are learning to help you, not just someone who happens to drop by with experience in something else. So far, no Ninjutsu.
> 
> Then just out of curiosity I asked him to look over the martial arts books and videos that I have to help me train with and he actually told me that the joint locks and chokes in the Ninjitsu books and videos I have are the same holds that he was taught in BJJ but just a little tamer.
> 
> Hmm, he may have missed something then. We don't go for submissions and tap-outs. Your book may have only had some basic applications, but to say it's "tamer"? No, it's designed with a different philosophy in mind. He's making himself bigger by minimising another system, you know. I've spent my time in BJJ, and frankly they're incredible on the ground, but there is nothing there that I would say is nastier than what we do. In fact, I would actually say the opposite. And to be clear, neither is better, just better suited to the particular philosophies of each system.
> 
> I truly appreciate the knowledge everyone is giving me but I do agree with him because some of the same joint locks in Aikido are also seen in Hapkido and some of the kicks in Tae Kwon Do are seen in Tang Soo Do. So some martial arts styles use the same maneuvers but just call them different names or change them around a little bit.
> 
> Okay, here's what I've been getting towards. While there are definate similarites between the technical aspects of various systems, that is not what defines an art. What defines an art is it's guiding philosophy. That gives an art it's construct and boundaries, how it is used, where, when, and for what purpose. These changes mean that the way an outside wrist twist is done in Ninjutsu, Aikido, Hapkido, Koryu Jujutsu, Gendai Jujutsu, or any other system, although essentially the same movement, can be radically different in application. And to learn those subtle differences that makes _this_ Ninjutsu, but _that_ Hapkido is what you need an instructor for.
> 
> Practicing/training/studying/exploring with an Army Combatives guy is far from training/studying/learning Ninjutsu. If you don't get that, then you will never understand martial arts.
> 
> Also I was the victim of him showing me all of the joint locks and chokes from my videos and books with the only comment he gave to me about them was that he just learned to apply these same locks and chokes while standing up or in close range to the assailant instead of being on the ground trying to apply them.
> 
> Mechanics do not make a martial art. Techniques do not make a martial art. In this fashion, even if I were to give you and your friend Ninjutsu methods, he would still be doing his MMA, just with different mechanics. Techniques do not make a martial art. I really can't make it any clearer than that.


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## ronin7411

Since everyone is suggesting to me to go to a Bujinkan or sub group school and practice the style instead of using books and videos I want to provide everyone with a video from Shidoshi Jeffrey Miller on using home study courses plus he's a Bujinkan Ninjutsu instructor. Also you can break someone's neck with using a typical choke hold if you apply enough pressure plus if you got enough strength to do so. (Proof at the bottom of the message also don't forget my friend Luis is a professional MMA fighter) When he meant tamer he showed me that in Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu or whatever the H$%^ people refer to spell it as in Ninjitsu some practitioners believe in applying the rear naked hold while standing behind the person attacking them which can easily get you flipped over. But in BJJ when you apply the rear naked choke you also apply the body scissors which in his words BJJ is all over the person you're fighting with like an animal. While Ninjitsu just seeks the quickest and easiest way to finish the fight even if it leaves you open for a really bad counter but not to stay there and beat the guy to death. Also like most broke people I train out of my garage with using mats to protect ourselves when it goes to the ground or when we get thrown. The thing I'm doing is just fighting with my friends or anybody that I can find then after the person beats you all they do is tell you how they beat you and how to prevent the situation from happening again or teaches you how to escape the situation based on their experience. Which is why I'm not a style bashing a$$#@&$ I value input from all sources from other martial artists in my proximity and if they know more than the both of us fighting then they can help us out as well.  

Shidoshi Jeffrey Miller

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNhEPyEqoyY#

http://www.warrior-concepts-online.com/learn-ninjutsu.html 

Proof You can Break Someone's Neck with a Choke Hold


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## Chris Parker

I'll try to make this gentle. Okay, maybe not.



ronin7411 said:


> Since everyone is suggesting to me to go to a Bujinkan or sub group school and practice the style instead of using books and videos I want to provide everyone with a video from Shidoshi James Miller on using home study courses plus he's a Bujinkan Ninjutsu instructor.
> 
> Yeah, I know Jeffery's stuff (it's Jeffery Miller, by the way, not James) Couple of things. 1, he's selling you an online course. 2, listen to what he actually says! The first thing is that there is no substitute for a real teacher. From there, he goes on to say that the training needs to be structured, which is not what you are doing.
> 
> Oh, and we're not suggesting that you go to a Bujinkan group, just that if you want to be training in Ninjutsu, you need to go to a Ninjutsu school, and that means Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, or a legitimate off-shoot.
> 
> Also you can break someone's neck with using a typical choke hold if you apply enough pressure plus if you got enough strength to do so. (Proof at the bottom of the message also don't forget my friend Luis is a professional MMA fighter)
> 
> Nope, actually, it shows what I described (even though it's a different choke being applied here). Your proof? That they say that if you apply enough pressure, and then torque the neck, it can break? For one thing, it's no longer a choke then. But really, that show is full of so many holes, including in this demontration, that it really isn't great evidence on your side of things.
> 
> Luis may be an MMA fighter, professional or not, but that doesn't mean he knows about Ninjutsu. All it means is that he has experience in MMA. His word is far from authoritative in this regard. Remember, MMA desired outcomes are very different from Ninjutsu desired outcomes, and he is not going to apply a choke the same way we will, so his take is good only for his approach, not ours.
> 
> When he meant tamer he showed me that in Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu or whatever the H$%^ people refer to spell it as in Ninjitsu some practitioners believe in applying the rear naked hold while standing behind the person attacking them which can easily get you flipped over.
> 
> Okay, it's Ninjutsu. The reason, very simply, is that "jitsu" and "jutsu" are very different words in Japanese, with "jitsu" meaning truth, and "jutsu" meaning practical art. So by using ninjitsu, you are incorrect. There is no preference here, just the correct word. If you really want to learn this art (honestly I'm having my doubts, as you are looking to a number of things as references that are the antithesis of Ninjutsu), let's start by you actually learning how to spell and pronounce the name, okay? This is not something for you to get huffy over, you are using the wrong term, we are correcting you so you can learn, that is all.
> 
> Don't know where on earth you got that belief from. We have techniques which include defences against a rear choke which involve throwing the attacker forward, but that is very different from saying we have a belief that you can get easily flipped over. That's like saying we believe that if you throw a punch, you will be easily kicked in Tae Kwon Do...
> 
> But in BJJ when you apply the rear naked choke you also apply the body scissors which in his words BJJ is all over the person you're fighting with like an animal.
> 
> Okay, I've done my time in a BJJ school, so I'm more than a little experienced in everything you are discussing. The main difference here is one of philosophies; BJJ is geared towards ground fighting, most specifically competitive these days, so going to ground, tying yourself up, going one on one is fine. Ninjutsu on the other hand is geared toward survival, so these tactics are not ideal. It's just too dangerous in a group or street situation. Realise that the BJJ approach is very limited, even if it is strong. Oh, and don't make the mistake of thinking that their approach is the only strong one, believe me, I have plenty of ways of "tweaking" a simple RNC that makes it even nastier than the one you are describing. And that is when standing, so you know.
> 
> While Ninjitsu just seeks the quickest and easiest way to finish the fight even if it leaves you open for a really bad counter but not to stay there and beat the guy to death.
> 
> Well, for one thing, that would be criminal in most places. And no, we do not consider the fight "finished" if it leaves the opponent open to continue to attack in such a manner. Not really finished there, is it. You're really missing pretty much everything about us, you know. The quickest, easiest way to finish a fight could be many things, it could be simple avoidance, not allowing the assault in the first place, it could be a solid pre-emptive strike, taking the other guy out before he has a chance to attack, it could be a devestating counter, destroying the opponents physical ability to continue, or more. Not sure what you think "finishing the fight" would be if we leave the other guy able to deliver a "really bad counter"...
> 
> Also like most broke people I train out of my garage with using mats to protect ourselves when it goes to the ground or when we get thrown. The thing I'm doing is just fighting with my friends or anybody that I can find then after the person beats you all they do is tell you how they beat you and how to prevent the situation from happening again or teaches you how to escape the situation based on their experience.
> 
> Fine. But that is not learning a martial art, and it certainly is not learning, training, or studying Ninjutsu. You are fixated on techniques, without understanding where the art actually begins. Either learn under an instructor, or recognise that you are not studying an art. Do you see the difference?
> 
> Which is why I'm not a style bashing a$$#@&$ I value input from all sources from other martial artists in my proximity and if they know more than the both of us fighting then they can help us out as well.
> 
> Well, when it comes to martial arts, I would suggest that I know quite a bit more than you, as do many others here. We have a great deal of experience in many arts, including the one you are asking about. But you really do need to listen to what we are saying, otherwise this entire exercise has very little point.
> 
> I appreciate financial hardship, but that should only reinforce to you the realities of your situation. If you are not in a position to learn from an instructor, you are not in a position to learn. But if you really want it, you will find a way. If you are bale to afford a computer, an internet connection, a monthly online subscription, videos, books, then I submit that you can scrape up enough to visit a school as well. It's usually not as expensive as you may think.


----------



## Chris Parker

Self correction here. I misread a part of the earlier post, but that doesn't change my earlier comments. However, I will address the comment itself here.



ronin7411 said:


> When he meant tamer he showed me that in Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu or whatever the H$%^ people refer to spell it as in Ninjitsu some practitioners believe in applying the rear naked hold while standing behind the person attacking them which can easily get you flipped over.


 
No, the preference for Ninjutsu practitioners is for standing grappling. The belief of being "easily flipped over" is Luis', correct? Well, I would say that that shows a limited understanding of a rear naked choke, after all, a standing choke is pretty standard from a security viewpoint. A standing rear choke, as I apply it, is fast, and very strong. It is also applied in a way that makes it rather hard to flip me over, just so you know.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*What Chris said!*


Frankly you are just training and right now your training has nothing to do with any form of Ninjutsu so you should just drop that idea.  Unless you go to a Training Hall of the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan or as Chris said a legitimate off shoot then you are not training in this system or lineage.  *That is the current reality!*  Now that is not implying that your training is not good just that you are not training in this lineage.  Now if you are sincere and really want to train in one of the X-Kan's then you will find a way to make it to one of their dojo's and learn from a qualified instructor.  *

There simply is no other way! *


----------



## jks9199

Chris Parker said:


> Self correction here. I misread a part of the earlier post, but that doesn't change my earlier comments. However, I will address the comment itself here.
> 
> 
> 
> No, the preference for Ninjutsu practitioners is for standing grappling. The belief of being "easily flipped over" is Luis', correct? Well, I would say that that shows a limited understanding of a rear naked choke, after all, a standing choke is pretty standard from a security viewpoint. A standing rear choke, as I apply it, is fast, and very strong. It is also applied in a way that makes it rather hard to flip me over, just so you know.


One other thing about doing chokes on a standing person from behind...  They're among sentry removal tactics.  They've been successfully used in wartime.  Maybe there's something to them...  Like maybe you take the person's balance as you apply the choke?  Meaning that they can't simply flip you?  

Nah.  Couldn't be.

I see people who ask something like "what if a BJJ guy gets you in a choke" or "what if I get you in a full Nelson..." and so on.  Well, a lot of chokes and holds, ONCE APPLIED, are difficult or impossible to break.  That is, after all, the point of the move, no?  Proving "superiority" by something like that is kind of like asking a racer if he can beat you if you start the race at the finish line...


----------



## Omar B

ronin7411 said:


> Well, you can learn how to play a real guitar with Guitar Hero or Rock Band already it does require a little modification right now to do so but they are developing products as we speak to do so commercially and I can provide proof of this too. As for your previous question that is why you ask friends of yours that have experience with that area to give you assistance based upon their experience. Like if you are having a problem with applying a wrist lock in self defense maneuver from a book or video you can ask a friend of yours that has a background in Jiujitsu, Hapkido, Aikido, or Judo to help you out with that lock and apply it properly on you so that you can learn it and then practice it with your friends.
> 
> An example of this is one time I was having a problem with learning how to properly apply a Triangle Choke on someone from my back because I wouldn't put the back of my left knee over my right ankle. But my friend Luis who is a professional MMA fighter came by to see me and he saw that I was doing it wrong and showed me the proper way of performing it to make the person on the receiving tap or get their neck broke. (when he applied it on me I could hear my neck straining and stretching would he cranked on it) Then I rolled around with my friend Chase again and then I got the Triangle Choke again on him and tapped him out (after he punched my face in for a couple of minutes:lol. You are right that it is always good to have someone that is highly experienced and a trained instructor to assist you with your expertise in the martial arts but even Luis told me that all martial arts share one thing in common body mechanics.
> 
> Then just out of curiosity I asked him to look over the martial arts books and videos that I have to help me train with and he actually told me that the joint locks and chokes in the Ninjitsu books and videos I have are the same holds that he was taught in BJJ but just a little tamer. I truly appreciate the knowledge everyone is giving me but I do agree with him because some of the same joint locks in Aikido are also seen in Hapkido and some of the kicks in Tae Kwon Do are seen in Tang Soo Do. So some martial arts styles use the same maneuvers but just call them different names or change them around a little bit. Also I was the victim of him showing me all of the joint locks and chokes from my videos and books with the only comment he gave to me about them was that he just learned to apply these same locks and chokes while standing up or in close range to the assailant instead of being on the ground trying to apply them.
> 
> Learning How To Play a Real Guitar with Guitar Hero
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/01/03/guitar-wizard-guitar-hero-with-a-real-guitar/
> 
> http://www.musicwizard.com/i_can_play.php
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/07/guitar-rising-perfects-the-guitar-hero-with-real-guitars-genre/
> 
> http://www.guitarrising.com/about.html



I only got through the first paragraph because it was so ridiculous.  As a musician who makes his living in the music/publishing industry I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that you cannot learn to play guitar from Guitar Hero.  Much the same as you can't learn to be a race car driver after playing Grand Tourismo.

Sure the controller superficially looks like a guitar but that doesnt make it a viable teaching tool with 4 buttons on it in the same amount of space that a guitar has 24 individual notes.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *What Chris said!*
> 
> 
> Frankly you are just training and right now your training has nothing to do with any form of Ninjutsu so you should just drop that idea.  Unless you go to a Training Hall of the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan or as Chris said a legitimate off shoot then you are not training in this system or lineage.  *That is the current reality!*  Now that is not implying that your training is not good just that you are not training in this lineage.



Just to head off the potential for a tangent here: people like Chris and Brian are not saying that what you are learning is not effective or efficient. It's just not ninjutsu. I'd say the same thing again, but that would be like a mouse running alongside 2 elephants and saying 'Look at all the dust we are kicking up '

It's like saying you are learning Japanese while you are learning russian (*). And when Chris and Brian point out it's not japanese, it's like you claim it's as valid as true Japanese because it's all made up out of squiggly lines.

(*) I was going to say 'Chinese' first but there is just too much commonality for that to be a valid analogy


----------



## jks9199

Bruno@MT said:


> Just to head off the potential for a tangent here: people like Chris and Brian are not saying that what you are learning is not effective or efficient. It's just not ninjutsu. I'd say the same thing again, but that would be like a mouse running alongside 2 elephants and saying 'Look at all the dust we are kicking up '
> 
> It's like saying you are learning Japanese while you are learning russian (*). And when Chris and Brian point out it's not japanese, it's like you claim it's as valid as true Japanese because it's all made up out of squiggly lines.
> 
> (*) I was going to say 'Chinese' first but there is just too much commonality for that to be a valid analogy


Excellent point; it certainly sounds like Ronin *IS* training, and training hard.  And he's got a great goal to bring an art to an area that it's unrepresented in.  He's just not training in ninjutsu yet.


----------



## Tensei85

My opinion, everyone else addressed everything pretty well.

But as a fellow College Student & Martial Arts Practitioner, as what was said if you want it bad enough you can make it happen.

I have classes 3 days a week, a day job 5 days a week, Martial Arts practice whenever I can fit it in which is usually at the very least 3 days a week. 

As far as travel wise I used to travel 6 hours one way on the weekends for training, so I would save whatever I could(lay off Starbucks for awhile, if your a College Student you know what I mean ; )

If you have to eat Ramen noodles for awhile then do it, I did so I could scavage whatever funding available to learn...

I admire your desire for passing on the Art & maybe starting up a Dojo one day, but if that's your "true desire" than pursue it but make sure you get all the qualifications first. (Qualified Teacher, proper equipment...)

I'm not going to beat that into the dirt, as Chris, Brian, JKS, Bruno everyone else already presented good points.

So in ending I wish you the best & hope you do pursue your dreams, good luck!


----------



## Tensei85

Btw, one other area I didn't highlight. From experience, talk to the Sensei of the Dojo of interest and see if he/she can work out something as far as tuition wise. Explain to him/her your desires for training in the Art, wishes to pass the system on to the next generation & your level of dedication as far as travel, expenses, your personal situation(College, expenses, etc...) & a lot of times the Teacher will work something out for you even if you have to clean mats after class to cover what you can't afford, hey its all worth it. Check it out... I know you already said you called but did you explore this avenue? (Just trying to help)

Remember even if you can only attend classes once a week, its still worth the effort & dedication to do so, atleast its something real & has value. 
(Not saying getting together with buddies & knocking each other out isn't fun but...)


----------



## ronin7411

jks9199 said:


> Excellent point; it certainly sounds like Ronin *IS* training, and training hard.  And he's got a great goal to bring an art to an area that it's unrepresented in.  He's just not training in ninjutsu yet.



Yeah, JKS it is hard because with my friend Chase I'm doing Army PT and to make a long story short the first time I did Army PT I puked twice. (I felt like crap afterwords and this was my friends that were watching from the sidelines :lol But hey after I graduate (in 10 months) I'm going into the Air National Guard so mind as well prepare myself ahead of time for things to come. Also Omar with Guitar Wizard and Guitar Rising you got to use a real guitar to play with it but where the jack for the amplifier goes in it comes with a jack that plugs into your X-Box 360 or PS3 that goes into the real guitar. 

Tenshi, thank you for your words of encouragement and you know my pain and I don't know about you but I've grown to hate Ramen Noodles as late from eating them too much. :lol: Also the reason why I'm using books and videos to learn Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu from is because there are some reputable UFC fighters who have learned their skills off of videos and books then just practiced them with their friends when they were just starting off. (Also I got them from the instructor of the Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu style I want to bring in my area for free plus I get all of the ranking/test fees for free as well so I benefit from doing it entirely) I probably bet there is more of them that did but don't want to admit to it but the ones that do openly admit to it is Dustin Hazelett and the late great Evan Tanner (RIP). Dustin Hazelett started his martial arts training the same way I am with my Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu training out of his garage using Muay Thai videos and Evan Tanner learned his submissions skills from practicing off of Gracie Jiujitsu videos because he never learned any submissions with his wrestling background which I can provide proof of this as well. This is how I see it if they can learn the martial arts from books and videos and Dustin with no background in the martial arts can learn Muay Thai off of videos to get good enough to get into the UFC I know I can do it with Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Also yes there are them days that just beating the crap out of someone is the only vent to help relieve your stress so I'm not eliminating that out of my regimen. :lol:        

Evan Tanner (on his personal website it can be confirmed by reading Joe Rogan's post about Evan Tanner which is the second one)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Tanner

http://www.evantanner.net/

Dustin Hazelett (his video starts at 6:41 and I give him a lot of respect he took the initiative to stand up for himself when everyone was messing with him so bad)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_YvfYSc52U&feature=related

(Check this video out before the UFC gets it pulled from Youtube)


----------



## Chris Parker

ronin7411, I'm actually going to keep this very gentle, so please try to listen carefully.

Drop the idea of Ninjutsu now. If your comparison is UFC competitors, you are nowhere near what Ninjutsu is about. You can't really compare them, as they are very opposed in their ideas, concepts, strategies, tactics, training methods, desired outcomes, and far more. So if you are using the histories of UFC competitors to justify your thoughts that you are training Ninjutsu, you are incorrect.

Someone in a competitive field (such as the UFC) will train in a different way, and for very different reasons. The training will be based on limited technical aspects, drilled and repeated, and then tested and applied in a competitive field. Ninjutsu, on the other hand, will have a far greater range of techniques to cover, with a greater range of applications, and be a much deeper study. You need an instructor to study this art. There is no alternative. Either get an instructor, or you are not studying Ninjutsu. That is all there is to it, I'm afraid.

Providing "proof" that professional athletes have studied from tapes isn't really related to you studying Ninjutsu. And there is no evidence that you will be able to do what they have done. Ninjutsu and the UFC approach is just too different for them to be compared here.

While I see you are making a "concession" to the spelling, by using both ("ninjitsu/ninjutsu"), I'm going to say one more time. It is Ninjutsu. There is no such thing as preference on correct spelling here, it is either the correct word, or not. Okay?


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

All of the above that Chris say's is true.  You need an instructor there is simply no other way to learn this art form.  No way around it.  Good luck!


----------



## EWBell

A guitar/martial arts comparison isn't a good one. I am completely self-taught on guitar, and there are many famous guitarists who never had the first lesson. The thing to realize though is not everyone who picks up the guitar is going to learn to play, and I don't care what tools are at their disposal. Pawn shops are full of guitars people bought who thought they were going to learn to play, but couldn't/didn't. If it was easy, then everyone would do it.

As far as martial arts are concerned, and this goes for any martial art, not just ninjutsu/ninpo, you need to have a qualified instructor. You might get a book along with a video showing you a technique, and you might do it right. However, there's a bigger chance you will only _think _you are doing it right. Many is the time I've watched my sensei demonstrate a technique and think, "Oh that seems easy enough," only to find out when actually doing it that I was all wrong. The end result would be close, but I usually found that the correct way was always much more painful for the uke (receiver) of the technique, and didn't require as much "muscle" from myself. A video or a book just cannot give you that insight. Keep in mind that while there are some MMA guys who claim to have learned techniques from videos, I'm pretty sure they didn't start off with videos. If they did, I'd wager they eventually sought out proper instruction.

If you are serious about learning ninjutsu/ninpo then I really suggest you get an instructor. Like many have said before, there is no other way to do it. There is so much that is not conveyed in books and videos, and cannot be. They can be useful aids, but definitely not a substitute for a real instructor.


----------



## Omar B

I'm gonna disagree with you.  I'm a guitar player and martial artist and I practice both the same way and develop both with the same method.  Kata and practicing scales/modes.  Sparring and jamming with buds.  Studying with different sensei and learning from different musicians.

I see your point about there being many self taught musicians, much like there are many tough guys who can fight.  But even the self taught can only go so far (we have heard the self taught musicians who put out the same album over and over because they are stagnant) till they apply their gifts to some theory, much like Yngwie Malmsteen or Eddy Van Halen (who for some people seem to fixate on that he's self taught though he went to conservatory as a teen to study piano and learned from some of the greats liek Holdsworth and Zappa after he broke).  Much in the same way a person with great physical gifts like Kimbo can kick a lot of dudes butts, till faced with an educated fighter.

A strong arm does not mean you can pitch for the Yankees, a good ear does nto make you the next Mozart and being flexible does not make you the next Chuck Norris.  But someone helping you, coach, music teacher, sensei will use a system to streamline what you are doing so you can grow organically rather than grasping concepts at random and grafting them onto an incomplete whole.


----------



## EWBell

Well I should clarify that I did study other instruments from a music teacher, but not guitar.  So yeah, I could read music, etc., but what I'm referring to is the actual technical aspect of playing.  I also disagree that someone who doesn't have music training can only go so far.  After all, if they are playing by ear, then they can listen to a ton of things and learn without having someone stand over them teaching them modes and scales.  Some can, most can't though in all honesty.

Music aside, I totally believe one needs an instructor for martial arts.


----------



## ronin7411

Hey guys, I just thought  that I should update this thread a little bit. I got another training  partner that is into BJJ to improve my ground game off of my threads on  Sherdog. But to help me out with  my striking even more I'm working with a 3rd Degree Black Belt in Tae  Kwon Do for free at his school on Fridays. If anybody from the NW  Indiana area sees this thread and wants to do some training with me drop me a  line we would be more than happy to train with you.


----------



## ronin7411

Hey guys just thought that I should update this thread a little bit I  got a time slot at Old Firehouse Community Center where anybody can come  in to train for free on Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday at 2pm-5pm. If  anybody is free at those times and days here is the address: 

Old Firehouse Community Center  

 6055 West 29th Avenue.  

 Gary, IN. 46406

hope to see some of you there eventually.


----------



## Chris Parker

So still no ninjutsu then? Hmm, might want to put this information in another (possibly new) thread then.... Looking for training partners in the General section perhaps?


----------



## ScholarsInk

Chris Parker said:


> So still no ninjutsu then? Hmm, might want to put this information in another (possibly new) thread then.... Looking for training partners in the General section perhaps?


I just went to this guy's Kutaki thread. He is completely ignoring the advice he's been given there.

Someone from his exact town pointed out that there's a six-dollar train from where he lives to a Bujinkan dojo in Chicago.

He was completely lying when he claimed no one offered help. Maybe to him anything other than "Yes, train without a teacher" counts as 'not helping'


----------



## ronin7411

Actually in regards to Ninjitsu I just trained with the Cojitsu Kai of Detroit which is a Bujinkan group that was hosting a seminar there nice guys and I wouldn't mind training with them again. As for the guy from Kutaki No Maru I contacted him about going to Chicago but he never got back to me but its cool I just talked to a person who use to train in a Bujinkan dojo in Chicago. He told me that his school has been shutdown and the Bujinkan in Chicago is having some rough times but that is their problem to worry about not mine. But with the experience that I had with the Cojitsu Kai Ninjitsu is a great style and I truly want to master it even more.


----------



## stephen

ronin7411 said:


> Actually in regards to Ninjitsu I just trained with the Cojitsu Kai of Detroit which is a Bujinkan group that was hosting a seminar there nice guys and I wouldn't mind training with them again. As for the guy from Kutaki No Maru I contacted him about going to Chicago but he never got back to me but its cool I just talked to a person who use to train in a Bujinkan dojo in Chicago. He told me that his school has been shutdown and the Bujinkan in Chicago is having some rough times but that is their problem to worry about not mine. But with the experience that I had with the Cojitsu Kai Ninjitsu is a great style and I truly want to master it even more.




There's more than one Bujinkan dojo in Chicago. 

"The Bujinkan in Chicago" is _not_ having "rough times". I don't even know what that means.


----------



## ScholarsInk

You don't need to go with that guy to go to a Chicago dojo. Just go on your own.

Here you go.


----------



## ronin7411

I know there are two of them that I can remember off of the top of my head and a Genbukan dojo as well in Chicago and the Indianapolis area has a couple as well along with there is a Genbukan one in Fort Wayne. I'm going off of what he said I know the one that was out in my area American Warrior Arts closed down and that Winjutsu's directory isn't that accurate because its still listed on there so it wouldn't surprise me. If anybody knows some people that belong to the Bujinkan in Chicago I'm willing to give you his name so that you can see if he ever actually trained with them. If he lied that his life he messed up not mine.


----------



## ronin7411

ScholarsInk said:


> You don't need to go with that guy to go to a Chicago dojo. Just go on your own.
> 
> Here you go.



Are you willing to pay it for me ? If so then I'll go when he contacted me one of the dojos was doing a special buddy sign up discount but he never got back to me to make it fit into my budget. Its easier said than done when you don't have the resources to do it.


----------



## ScholarsInk

ronin7411 said:


> Are you willing to pay it for me ? If so then I'll go when he contacted me one of the dojos was doing a special buddy sign up discount but he never got back to me to make it fit into my budget. Its easier said than done when you don't have the resources to do it.


Don't try that "You don't know what I'm going through" crap on me. I too am a full-time student and I spend more money and time on transport to training than I do on the training itself.

Tensei, another student, gave you some very practical advice earlier in the thread that you ignored along with all of the advice on Kutaki. I will repeat it here anyway.



Tensei85 said:


> My opinion, everyone else addressed everything  pretty well.
> 
> But as a fellow College Student & Martial Arts Practitioner, as what  was said if you want it bad enough you can make it happen.
> 
> I have classes 3 days a week, a day job 5 days a week, Martial Arts  practice whenever I can fit it in which is usually at the very least 3  days a week.
> 
> As far as travel wise I used to travel 6 hours one way on the weekends  for training, so I would save whatever I could(lay off Starbucks for  awhile, if your a College Student you know what I mean ; )
> 
> If you have to eat Ramen noodles for awhile then do it, I did so I could  scavage whatever funding available to learn...
> 
> I admire your desire for passing on the Art & maybe starting up a  Dojo one day, but if that's your "true desire" than pursue it but make  sure you get all the qualifications first. (Qualified Teacher, proper  equipment...)
> 
> I'm not going to beat that into the dirt, as Chris, Brian, JKS, Bruno  everyone else already presented good points.
> 
> So in ending I wish you the best & hope you do pursue your dreams,  good luck!





Tensei85 said:


> Btw, one other area I didn't highlight. From  experience, talk to the Sensei of the Dojo of interest and see if he/she  can work out something as far as tuition wise. Explain to him/her your  desires for training in the Art, wishes to pass the system on to the  next generation & your level of dedication as far as travel,  expenses, your personal situation(College, expenses, etc...) & a lot  of times the Teacher will work something out for you even if you have  to clean mats after class to cover what you can't afford, hey its all  worth it. Check it out... I know you already said you called but did you  explore this avenue? (Just trying to help)
> 
> Remember even if you can only attend classes once a week, its still  worth the effort & dedication to do so, atleast its something real  & has value.
> (Not saying getting together with buddies & knocking each other out  isn't fun but...)


----------



## ronin7411

Then don't say anything unless you plan on helping the situation and for starters you guys don't even know anything about me other than what I put on this forum. Do any of you stay with me ? no Do any of you know how I even look like ? no Did any of you ever come to think that I was able to get a time slot at a martial arts school because I'm training there already plus I beat a couple of the TKD instructor's Black Belts too? no Talk all of the crap you want at the least I'm putting forth the effort to make something out of myself in the martial arts by actually doing it and working with what I can.


----------



## Chris Parker

Cojitsu Kai? Are you saying that they are a Bujinkan Group? I'm asking mainly because it doesn't sound like one at all.... to begin with, the Japanese is terrible (there is no "co" in Japanese, "jitsu", as we have said too many times in this thread, is nothing to do with martial arts, as it means "truth", as opposed to "jutsu" meaning the practical art side of things, these are hallmarks of non-legit groups, frankly, especially if they also use the term "ninjitsu" as you have yet again...). Also, the only source I can find of them is a Facebook page featuring an octogon in their picture.... far from ninjutsu there. Not saying they aren't good, but they seem far from Bujinkan from these clues....

As for your entire comment about Winjutsu's directory not being that accurate (as it still lists a now defunct school), and "if anyone trained in Bujinkan in Chicago I'm willing to give you (the name of the guy who I spoke to) to see if he actually trained.... if he lied that's his life he messed up not mine", I really don't know where to start.... What completely unfounded sense of entitlement do you have? Winjutsu relies on others to supply information, they don't call every school to ask if they're still operating, and they are in no way obligated to tell you anything! They keep a list of known (to them) and approved dojos, but if it's not completely up to date, it's a free list on a website! And with the guy you spoke to, if he lied?!? It sounds to me like he was discussing his own personal school (and I'm going to suggest he was a student, not an instructor, right?), so take his comments in that light. He had no reason to lie, and you have no reason to suggest such a thing. Then "he never got back to me to make it fit into my budget"? And why should he have to? I have to ask what makes you think you deserve such treatment (and don't play the "I'm poor and go to college" thing, you're far from alone in that, even on this thread)?

When it comes to your last comment here ("don't say anything unless you plan on helping the situation..."), okay. Here comes the help. You may notice that this is the same that you have had on each of the last three pages, by the way.

Save your money and learn in a real school.

Don't think that self-training is anything close to training in the art itself. It's not.

If there is no-one near you (genuinely, although I think it has been shown that that is not the case), wait. Self-training is not anything close to training in the art itself.

Forget anything you think you know about the art. Because from what you have shown here, what you think you know is completely off base.

It's N I N J *U* T S U, not N I N J *I *T S U. No argument, no personal preference, it's just that. Okay?

In short, if you cannot get to a school, afford to train in a Bujinkan/Genbukan/Jinenkan school, or find the time for a school, then you cannot train in Ninjutsu. Accept that and move on, or accept that those three things would need to be overcome.

Your first post here stated that you want to open a dojo (which you feel/felt was missing in your area), really, how do you expect to do that while self-learning yourself? Even if you were training under one of the best teachers around, it'll be years before you would be in any way ready to teach and start a dojo. Horses and carts go in a very particular order, don't mix them up. Like running and walking, or in your case, probably crawling (in regard to your Ninjutsu experience/expertise/understanding).

It really doesn't matter if you have a time slot at a martial arts school, or how many of their TKD black belts you "beat", son, if you can't get to a school, afford to learn at a school, find the time to go to a school, you are not, and cannot, train in Ninjutsu. At all.

Do you understand this?


----------



## ronin7411

Here is there website http://cojitsu.com/?page_id=40 I found it on the first page of a Google search well I said what I said if anybody from my area whats do some training with me no matter style they know its cool with me just show up if not it doesn't bother me.


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## Chris Parker

I googled Cojitsu Kai, that explains why that site didn't turn up.... fair enough.

Hmm, just to let you know, if Cody is training under a Shodan (Pablo?), that's not really going to garner much respect for him as a teacher of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Remember an instructor in the Bujinkan is 5th Dan or higher. And the fact that everything else there is so violently different to it I'm not convinced that the training would be that great (from a Bujinkan perspective). Cody just seems too much into the MMA world, and the Ninjutsu thing is just kinda tacked on. And frankly, when it comes to martial arts, too many is a bad sign.

Add to that the less-than-solid resumes of some of his instructors, and I'm not getting a good picture. One example is Tim Formigan, an instructor under him appearing to be Jim Hope here: http://allstarkaratemi.com/instructors  Jim makes a few claims that leap out at me, including the standard "Koga Ryu", "founding" his own systems of Ninjutsu and Kenjutsu, and claiming to have studied "Yagyu Ryu Kenjutsu"... which I'm sorry to say doesn't exist. What is sometimes refered to in such a way is the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, although that is more accurately Yagyu family branch of Shinkage Ryu (making Shinkage Ryu the actual name of the system), if such a system had been studied he should have known that.

Frankly, I can't see any way for Cody to be able to pass on the actual skills of the Bujinkan with such disparate other systems that he teaches, particularly if he is training under such inexperienced people (as his bio indicates). If you enjoy the training there, great, but I'm not sure that he's really any representation of the Bujinkan arts, there's just too much else there that completely contradicts it.


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## Cryozombie

stephen said:


> There's more than one Bujinkan dojo in Chicago.
> 
> "The Bujinkan in Chicago" is _not_ having "rough times". I don't even know what that means.



Yeah, I'm wondering which one hes talking about myself...


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## Cryozombie

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, just to let you know, if Cody is training under a Shodan (Pablo?), that's not really going to garner much respect for him as a teacher of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Remember an instructor in the Bujinkan is 5th Dan or higher.



Yeah, but you can be a Shidoshi-ho as long as you are doing so under a shidoshi and have your Shidoshi stuff renewed yearly with the Hombu.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Chuck Gauss is on their instructor list and I will vouche for him based off personal friends. (Chuck is really good) I do not know Pablo or who he trained with so that is a surprise here in Michigan. I would be curious to know who his instructor is if he is being sponsored by somebody and if members there are registered in the Bujinkan, etc. Especially since they appear to be using the name! While the Japanese Cojitsu Kai is different/weird I do not know Cody, etc. and *wish them the all the best of luck at their facility and hope they are doing well! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*

Now to Ronin7411 if you want to study from one of the Kan's (Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinekan or an off shoot like ToShinDo, etc.) and learn authentic skill sets then as Chris and everyone else has told mentioned you need to find an instructor and train for years and get the skill sets that are required. It does not matter what you *want to do* or *who you can beat* in a match, etc. You simply cannot teach under the Ninjutsu banner without actually training under a qualified instructor in one of these systems. (at least not without people questioning and or laughing at you) You need to have legitimacy and lineage in order to do so! Now if you want to teach MMA, have at it as that is what everyone is doing now a days and you probably are as certifide or more as some out there doing it right now! Yet your problem here and why no one will give you a pass has to do with the fact that you are claiming to teach Ninjutsu! Sorry but no one will say that is okay! At least no one from a respected lineage!


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## ScholarsInk

Furthermore, perhaps the guy from Kutaki didn't want to take you with him because then you'd be his liability. Perhaps he's uncomfortable introducing someone from the internet to his teacher; I know I would be.


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## MMcGuirk

Just for informatin purposes, if you are looking for a Bujinkan Dojo in the Chicago area there are plenty to try out and choose from.  Try this:
http://www.winjutsu.com/winlinks.html

There are dojos downtown, the northside, westside and southside.  Also in August of this year, the Mid-West taikai will take place.  
http://www.mwtaikai.com/

Most instructors around Chicago and the midwest will be there. All the instructors there have been to Japan or have connections with people who frequent or live in Japan.  I can't stress the importance of that enough.


----------



## jks9199

Y'know, I just reread this thread, after spending the weekend at our annual Memorial Day tournament.  I got to spend some time with some senior members of my style, and one of them has a story that's kind of relevant here.  He was introduced to our system, and chose to start training in it... but there were no teachers nearby.  He would take a bus from his home in one state, travel to the chief instructor's city, train almost continuously for a weekend, then take the bus home, writing notes about his training until he passed out.  He'd practice at home, and then repeat the process a few weeks later.  He became one of the leaders of our system.

If Ronin's goal is to teach ninjutsu/taijutsu... he needs to train in that, under a qualified instructor.  As long as he wants to make excuses about why he can't do that... he's not training in any of the related arts.  

This "Cojitsu" group looks like they train hard.  But they're all over the map, with MMA, jujitsu, ninjutsu (under a shodan, with no mention of who the shodan is affiliated with directly), krav maga (no explanation of that training at all...), and more.  Let me use one of my favorite analogies...  If you want a truly great order of lasagna, you aren't likely to find it in Eat At Bob's Diner, where you can get a steak, fried chicken, lasagna, Irish stew, and jerk chicken, too.  Odds are that you'll get a better order of lasagna at an Italian restaurant, a better steak at a steakhouse, and so on, right?

Again... TRAINING is good.  Working out,, practicing hard... that's all great.  But you can't tell us practice MMA, and then try to claim it's ninjutsu.

(And... just to flog the dead horse into pate, the proper spelling is with the U, not the I.  It's not a matter of opinion.  It's not a matter of personal preference.  It's simply proper and improper.)


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## ronin7411

I don't know how many times that I got to say this but I'M NOT TEACHING NINJITSU/NINJUTSU I'M STUDYING IT SO THAT I CAN TEACH IT DOWN THE ROAD AFTER TRAINING WITH A CERTIFIED INSTRUCTOR AND BACKED ORGANIZATION!!! You crawl before you walk then from walking you learn to run so as simple as its sounds I want to earn rank up to the proper rank to instruct it and until them I'm a student JUST LEARNING AND PRACTICING MOVES.


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## Chris Parker

Hmm, you waited a month to come back with that? Okay....

We got the idea of you wanting to teach from your first post here, in which you said: 



ronin7411 said:


> I'm basically trying to find a sparring partner to help me with my training in Ninjitsu *and to also help me open the only Ninjitsu dojo in the Northwest Indiana area*.


 
That said, I'm actually going to revisit this entire opening post, and see if I can clarify a few things for you in detail, especially in regards to why your entire plan here is, frankly, flawed from the outset.



ronin7411 said:


> Hi, I stay in the Northwest Indiana area and train at the World Gym in Highland, Indiana because that is the only gym out in my area that will allow their members to spar and train in the martial arts openly.
> 
> This is actually the first warning sign that you are on the wrong track, but it'll take until later for you to give us why. Learning or studying a system is not about who you can beat, how you go against other styles, or anything else, it is about how well you understand the one system you are studying. The idea of a gym that "allows it's members to spar and train in the martial arts openly" (as I read your wording, meaning people of different arts training with each other and sparring with each other) is not a good one. If your aim is to learn a system, that is your aim. If your aim is to be able to beat other people, that is very different, and that is all that will come of this type of environment. You will not learn the particular system well.
> 
> I'm basically trying to find a sparring partner to help me with my training in Ninjitsu and to also help me open the only Ninjitsu dojo in the Northwest Indiana area.
> 
> Now, this was your first post, and this has been covered many times in this thread, but you continue to make this fundamental error. Ninjutsu. That is all. Not Ninjutsu/ninjitsu to make it seem like you are making a concession. You're not. You're just not listening.
> 
> But to the point. If you have never trained in the art (and at this point you hadn't, I believe), thinking about starting a dojo is putting the cart way before the horse. Study the art first, and then (if it agrees with you, and you with it), you can start to plan such endeavours. But you may find that Ninjutsu is simply not for you, as few outside of the art have much of an idea about it at all.
> 
> I'm not style discriminatory as long as the person wants to help me accomplish my goals as well as theirs I'll be more than happy to train and spar with them.
> 
> Now, that seems wonderful, and open minded, but it's rather counter-productive to learning a system. To learn something like a martial art (any martial art) you need to have other people around you also learning the same art. That way you are all going in the same direction. I have spoken many times here about each arts guiding philosophy, and by inviting practitioners of other systems to train with you while you each learn different systems you are not helping either yourself or your training partners to learn anything, least of all Ninjutsu, particularly if you are engaging constantly in training that is the opposite, or at least fundamentally different, to the art you are trying to learn. This is why I discourage my students from cross-training, especially early in their training, although I don't ban them from doing so.
> 
> Currently the only things I can bring to sparring with anyone is 2 pairs of Top Contender MMA gloves (one Large the other Regular), 3 Velcro connecting mats, an Everlast Punching Bag, and my membership to World Gym to use their facilities to train at.
> 
> This is some decent gear, particularly for MMA, but for Ninjutsu it's not really what you should be bringing. Although we do a lot of impact work, the gloves are not so practical as they deny many aspects of our handwork (strikes, grappling, etc), instead I would look to things like Hanbo, Bokken, and other items suited to an education in Ninjutsu.... but you're steering away from that more and more throughout the thread.
> 
> If you can help me out or are looking for another person to help you with your studies in Ninjitsu or in another style in the Northwest Indiana area please contact me at ronin7411@yahoo.com to see if we can talk about training and sparring with each other.
> 
> Ninjutsu doesn't spar in the way that MMA, kickboxing, Tae Kwon Do and others do, this is part of what I mean when I say that you are actually steering away from Ninjutsu, and is in no way going to take you closer to the art. As I said, Ninjutsu isn't for everyone, and few outside of the art know much about what it entails, so planning on opening a dojo in an art you don't know (technically or in terms of what the arts concepts are, philosophically speaking) is rather presumptious that it will be what you want it to be. Frankly, I don't think you would be particularly well suited to the art itself, as you seem to want something completely different from your martial art journey (and yes, I'm taking into account your training with Cody and his Cojitsu group.... I find it hardly surprising that you have found essentially an MMA group who seem to teach limited Bujinkan based on the ranking and experiences listed on their site).
> 
> Also bring your friends and any other people you know that stay in the Northwest Indiana area that would like to train in Ninjitsu as well.
> 
> Although this doesn't explicitly say it, the inference is that you will be leading the Ninjutsu part of your training with anyone who comes along... how, realistically, could you help anyone in their training in Ninjutsu when you are unaware of basic aspects such as a lack of sparring?
> 
> The more people that I can get to spar and train with us the better for everyone working with me.
> 
> This depends on your approach. If you want to learn an art, the worse it is for everyone, if they are coming in with different systems. And if you think you will improve your understanding of any of this with sparring, you really have the completely wrong idea.
> 
> Thanks to anyone that can help me out.


 
One last point. On another forum (budoseek) you have the same thread going, although they really didn't entertain you as long there. You have actually re-visited that site today and posted this: 

(From Budoseek.com) 


ronin7411 said:


> So putting on Boxing Gloves, Shin Pads, Chest Protectors, and Head Gear then Kickboxing against Tae Kwon Do Black Belts and then doing Jiu-jitsu with people who train with professional MMA fighters like Miguel Torres for 3 hours is martial arts play acting right ?


 
No, it just simply isn't in any way, shape, form, feature, description, method, feel, taste, aim, approach, attitude, or desire Ninjutsu. More than anything else, you need to understand that. You have posted nothing relating to Ninjutsu training (save for the limited Cojitsu thing) at all, so frankly, although you may be "just learning and practicing moves", it really doesn't sound like any of them are Ninjutsu.

If you really want this art (for whatever reason), then find a dedicated school, rather than the MMA one you have found (even with it's Bujinkan element), and more importantly than anything else, recognise that you really don't know about the art, and in order to train it you will need to change your beliefs about martial arts training, Ninjutsu, and a lot more. Recognise that it will take years before you may be able to open a dojo. And recognise that Ninjutsu may simply not be for you.


----------



## Tanaka

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, you waited a month to come back with that? Okay....
> 
> We got the idea of you wanting to teach from your first post here, in which you said:
> 
> 
> 
> That said, I'm actually going to revisit this entire opening post, and see if I can clarify a few things for you in detail, especially in regards to why your entire plan here is, frankly, flawed from the outset.
> 
> 
> 
> One last point. On another forum (budoseek) you have the same thread going, although they really didn't entertain you as long there. You have actually re-visited that site today and posted this:
> 
> (From Budoseek.com)
> 
> 
> No, it just simply isn't in any way, shape, form, feature, description, method, feel, taste, aim, approach, attitude, or desire Ninjutsu. More than anything else, you need to understand that. You have posted nothing relating to Ninjutsu training (save for the limited Cojitsu thing) at all, so frankly, although you may be "just learning and practicing moves", it really doesn't sound like any of them are Ninjutsu.
> 
> If you really want this art (for whatever reason), then find a dedicated school, rather than the MMA one you have found (even with it's Bujinkan element), and more importantly than anything else, recognise that you really don't know about the art, and in order to train it you will need to change your beliefs about martial arts training, Ninjutsu, and a lot more. Recognise that it will take years before you may be able to open a dojo. And recognise that Ninjutsu may simply not be for you.



Perhaps you should explain to ronin that he doesn't realize that Ninjutsu is not the same type of martial arts as what you'll learn in modern schools of martial arts. (Ex. BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate, and etc)
Ninjutsu(Like most Traditional pre-meiji arts) Come with a philosophy and culture behind it. So without understanding the meaning behind the techniques you learn in Ninjutsu. You cannot really say you're a practitioner of Ninjutsu. Or that you're doing Ninjutsu. Starting with the fact that someone whom is a practitioner of Ninjutsu; would not constantly be disrespecting the art by mispronouncing it. Even after being told by experienced members the correct pronunciation. It's even starting to bother me, and I'm not even a practitioner of Ninjutsu.

Ronin these guys aren't trying to be mean. They're just being honest. Unless you go to a legitimate school that has recognized Ninjutsu lineage. You will not be considered a practitioner of Ninjutsu by any sane person. And from the looks of it(unless you like Japanese culture/philosophy/tradition), it really seems like you're looking for something more Hard contact sparring oriented unarmed combat. I haven't heard you once state anything about wanting to learn how to use traditional weapons or weapons at all. I'm basing this off what you've been saying previously in this thread.


----------



## Chris Parker

Tanaka said:


> *Perhaps you should explain to ronin that he doesn't realize that Ninjutsu is not the same type of martial arts as what you'll learn in modern schools of martial arts. (Ex. BJJ, Muay Thai, Karate, and etc)*
> Ninjutsu(Like most Traditional pre-meiji arts) Come with a philosophy and culture behind it. So without understanding the meaning behind the techniques you learn in Ninjutsu. You cannot really say you're a practitioner of Ninjutsu. Or that you're doing Ninjutsu. Starting with the fact that someone whom is a practitioner of Ninjutsu; would not constantly be disrespecting the art by mispronouncing it. Even after being told by experienced members the correct pronunciation. It's even starting to bother me, and I'm not even a practitioner of Ninjutsu.
> 
> Ronin these guys aren't trying to be mean. They're just being honest. Unless you go to a legitimate school that has recognized Ninjutsu lineage. You will not be considered a practitioner of Ninjutsu by any sane person. And from the looks of it(unless you like Japanese culture/philosophy/tradition), it really seems like you're looking for something more Hard contact sparring oriented unarmed combat. I haven't heard you once state anything about wanting to learn how to use traditional weapons or weapons at all. I'm basing this off what you've been saying previously in this thread.


 
Hmm, you know, I thought that I had said that more than a few times during this thread.... not clearly enough, I suppose. But, so you know, I spoke about the differences in approach, philosophy, and more, even in the post you quoted there, so I'm in total agreement with you. I really don't think that Ninjutsu is what ronin is after (and again I think I've said that a few times here as well...), he would be happier in an MMA school/gym. Not every art is for everybody...


----------



## Tanaka

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm, you know, I thought that I had said that more than a few times during this thread.... not clearly enough, I suppose. But, so you know, I spoke about the differences in approach, philosophy, and more, even in the post you quoted there, so I'm in total agreement with you. I really don't think that Ninjutsu is what ronin is after (and again I think I've said that a few times here as well...), he would be happier in an MMA school/gym. Not every art is for everybody...



Oh if you already said that, then I'm sorry.
He must not be listening to you, because he keeps talking about putting gloves on and sparring with people in the gym. As that is definitely NOT traditional. Maybe he needs a very deep dedicated discussion on why what he is describing isn't related to Ninjutsu. I think he would be much happier with MMA gym as well. It sounds like everything he is looking for would be fulfilled there. I don't think he would get his fulfillment in Ninjutsu, and would end up doing things that's not in the direction he wants. Ronin you sound like a very nice guy, and very eager to become better in martial arts. But... I don't think Ninjutsu is your calling, as Ninjutsu was made for war times. So this means it's dealing with people who would have been wearing armor and using weapons. Not focusing so heavily on unarmed combat(Since most of the unarmed combat was just practiced along side of armed combat), which is what you keep talking about.(Joint locks, Chokes, and etc)
There are other arts that have become more modernized for our tad bit more "peaceful" times.(Not fully peaceful lol). That will put more emphasis on evolved unarmed combat. This is what it seems like you're looking for. In Ninjutsu you won't have guys performing sankaku jime(Triangle chokes), or heavy newaza(Ground techniques).
Because in Ninjutsu this would not be necessary, as your enemy would most likely be carrying a weapon. And you yourself would also have a weapon.(And once someone was put on the ground; they would most likely have a secondary weapon(such as a katana) going through the openings of their armor) 
Nowadays martial arts is taught to the non-fighting men. Those who are not usually carrying weapons or allowed to use them without strict rules coming into play. So unless you really enjoy historical arts or have a passion for them(koryu) and their philosophy/culture. You most likely will be doing things that don't interest you. Especially if you enjoy competition fighting.

-This is my opinion on why Ninjutsu might not be for you.
But I really suggest you listen to Chris Parker over me on this topic.
Hes being really nice to you about this.


----------



## Muawijhe

A little off topic, but having read through this post and looking at the CoJitsu website, I think I've met Pablo before. CoJitsu is relatively in my area, though I have never been there.

However, I ran into a gentleman named Pablo a few months ago who had claimed training in the Bujinkan and other martial arts. He looks like the gentleman in the picture on the website, but my memory is fuzzy.

If it is him, then he said he was trained under Otto Cardrew. That's all I can really remember about that, sorry. Perhaps I'll check out CoJitsu if I've ever the free time and desire (MMA isn't to my liking).


----------



## ronin7411

Yep, Muawijhe that is him I trained with Otto as well cool instructor and he is really good with weapons he actually showed how to use a rope as a weapon along with a chain it was fun. I also had his assistant instructor Chris who weighed 300 lbs on top of me during an exercise where I had to get him off of me and Pablo away from me long enough to run to safety.  I'm actually highly interested in weapons training because of my Private Security career the problem is the lack of equipment to do it properly before I do any kind of training with weapons I want to get head gear and chest protectors to protect myself. I would definitely like to throw in some Escrima or Kali training as well into my regular training but if you're going to do it make it realistic so just like Dog Brothers contact must be needed to learn everything correctly regarding weapon fighting.


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## Brian R. VanCise

If you can train with Otto regularly that would be a really good fit.  He has been around a long time and experienced a lot!


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## ronin7411

He's coming back really soon to host another seminar with Pablo, Chris, and one of his students named Dolton if my mind serves me correct Otto has 25 years in the Bujinkan and Chris has 15 years.


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## Brian R. VanCise

ronin7411 said:


> He's coming back really soon to host another seminar with Pablo, Chris, and one of his students named Dolton if my mind serves me correct Otto has 25 years in the Bujinkan and Chris has 15 years.


 
I'm not sure if Chris has been around that long but Otto certainly has! (long time and a great guy)


----------



## Muawijhe

Both Otto and Pablo seem like great guys. I met them both whilst nerding out and playing some Warhammer. I talked at length one night with Pablo about ninjutsu and martial arts as a whole.

If you can make it to Michigan where Otto is, rumour has it he doesn't charge anything for training. This is just a rumour, as I don't train with him, I cannot fully confirm nor deny that.


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## ronin7411

He charges I'm fairly certain of it but you get to show to any of the classes being held there including the BJJ and Muay Thai classes as well with your monthly membership. Well, I'm graduating in about 6 months from college and then after that I'm going into the military to kill my student loans and get the best backing ever for a career in private security but I'll pay them a visit after my finances get straightened out.


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## ronin7411

I decided to go more public with my search for people to train with and got some profiles on Meetup check them out.

http://www.meetup.com/Demolition-MMA/ 

http://www.meetup.com/NW-Indiana-Martial-Artists-and-Parkourists-Club/ 

http://www.meetup.com/Black-Dragon-Ninjitsu-Street-Focus-Jujitsu-Study-Group/


----------



## Chris Parker

Hey Johnny,



ronin7411 said:


> I decided to go more public with my search for people to train with and got some profiles on Meetup check them out.


 
Okay, since you asked....



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.meetup.com/Demolition-MMA/
> 
> We are a sub-group of the NW Indiana Martial Artists and Parkourists Club *that have desires of using our martial arts training for competition purposes*. We do train with members of the NW Indiana Martial Artists and Parkourists Club, *Demolition MMA*, and the Black Dragon Ninjitsu and Street Focus Jujitsu Study Group all under one roof. *If you have the desire to compete using your martial arts skills no matter what style you use or want type of competition you want to do our group will try to help you out*.


 
Okay, be straight on what you want. Competition is not part of Ninjutsu, so again I suggest either you drop the idea (as it really does seem like Ninjutsu is not what you are after, and competition, particularly MMA format is), or recognise that you need to get a better understanding of what these systems actually deal with.



ronin7411 said:


> http://www.meetup.com/NW-Indiana-Martial-Artists-and-Parkourists-Club/
> 
> This group is for people that stay throughout the Northwest Indiana area (we'll work with people that are in the Chicago area but be forewarned all of our meetings & sparring sessions are going to be in NW Indiana) that practices the martial arts no matter what style they practice & for people wanting to do Parkour. *Basically this group just meets up with each other to talk about the martial arts & Parkour, sparring with each other to improve our current fighting skills, (please no style discrimination) & to perfect our skills in our own prospective styles of the martial arts along with learning to incorporate Parkour to become a more complete martial artist*.


 
Right. Again, what do you want? You started this thread stating that you wanted to start a Ninjutsu school in your area (as you felt it was lacking... although you have consistently shown since then that your understanding and expectations of Ninjutsu are even more lacking. It is nothing that you have described here or anywhere else), however you are then constantly talking about bringing in other people training in other arts, and now bringing in parkour to make you a "more complete martial artist (?!?!)". The idea of bringing in other martial artists to train with can have benefits only after you have gained reasonable experience, skill, and understanding in your system! And you are years from that, if at all!

Again, your concept and rhetoric of "no style bashing/discrimination" is rather redundant, learning one art requires that you train in that art, not multiple others. This is not style discrimination, it's reality. You are coming across as someone who's entire knowledge is based on fantasy, as well as frankly having your entire knowledge and understanding based on TV and movies. 

Pick a path. Either study Ninjutsu so you can open a school in a number of years down the road, or drop the idea and keep going with this frankly poorly thought out fantasy based group you're starting. But it is nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It really has to be one or the other.




ronin7411 said:


> http://www.meetup.com/Black-Dragon-Ninjitsu-Street-Focus-Jujitsu-Study-Group/





ronin7411 said:


> We are a sub-group of the NW Indiana Martial Artists and Parkourists Club and Demolition MMA that studies the styles of* Black Dragon Ninjitsu and Street Focus Jujitsu.* We do train with members of the NW Indiana Martial Artists and Parkourists Club, Demolition MMA, as well as ourselves all under one roof. *If you have the desire to earn rank in both of these rare systems this is the group you would want to join. Reference material will be provided on both styles so that our progress with studying both styles is really quick and very precise to the dot.*


 
Now, here on MT there is no fraudbusting, so I'm going to tread very close to the line, and hope I don't go over....

Are you freakin' kidding me?!!? Ron Collins' "Street Focus Jujitsu" and "Black Dragon Ninjitsu"?!?! Okay, now we know why you've been so insistant on your incorrect spelling.. you remember how I said it was the hallmark of people who have no idea what Ninjutsu is, and no authentic link whatsoever (see, I did that without using the "f" word! Yay me!), this is who I was talking about!!! This is Ashida Kim's group, son.

And (realising that I probably don't actually want the answer to this, as I can guess what it's going to be....) how are you going to provide the ability to "earn rank in.... these rare systems"? With the "reference material" you have listed on the page of this last one? Meaning no actual teacher? If you want to act out a movie fantasy, go for it. But don't reference it as Ninjutsu, okay? 



This needs to be said as well, though.

You will gain no skill in any art with your plan the way you are doing it, most particularly Ninjutsu.

You are coming at this filled with movie fantasy.

Choose Ninjutsu or competitive training, you can't have both.

Oh, and before you bring up the examples on your thread on Budoseek, look to my answer there. You have many years to go before you could even consider what you are proposing (and you're also not in a position to have any understanding of their decisions, or what it means).

Fantasy is one thing, but if you post things like this in a Ninjutsu forum, expect a Ninjutsu answer. As I suggested before, I recommend not posting things like this here (in this thread), but perhaps starting a new thread in a completely different forum, I'd suggest probably the Schools/Instructor forum, it's geared up for this, or the General Martial Arts forum, or even the MMA forum, as that is really the closest (albeit this being a rather undisciplined form, you would probably need to get a lot more focus first....).


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Wow that is really all I can say!* If you wish to train in Ninjutsu then you need to be a part of one of the X-Kan's. If you were training with Otto that would be fine but you seem to be all over the place and truthfully you appear just to want to find a way to start at the top. The post with the other groups you just listed which of course those are not a part of the X-Kans or even someone that has broken away. It would appear that you have found someone to back you in the Nin quest.  Unfortunately for you going down this path is a great way to be a laughing stock.  Based on your posting pattern you are interested in MMA why not just study that?


----------



## ronin7411

Brian, to answer your question I need something to market to promoters when I fight so since I'm not a former pro wrestler from the WWE that is famous already why not be a Ninjutsu practitioner that does Muay Thai, Point Karate, BJJ, and MMA competitions? Also most of the people who have Ninjutsu backgrounds other than Jeremy Horn have quit doing MMA either because their bodies can't take it anymore or they never adapted their techniques to work in that environment. (This is how I see it if they can use Ninjutsu and compete in MMA why cant' I do it?) Also marketing is based on controversy any way so the more people that hate me or wants to see me get seriously hurt the more tickets I pull in for my bouts which means more money for me. Then factor in with this "home study course Ninja" persona I'm using I should be highly marketable to the public especially the local competition scene. If I'm really dominate also I can have something like Fedor has when people just go to my events to see if I add another body to my record or just to see if I can finally get broken and lose. Oh well, I know I'm going to be hated anyway no matter which path I choose so mind as well get use to it. Besides I hear positives and negatives to every style of the martial arts so no matter which path I take in the martial arts I'm going to be seen as a moron by some then some are going to respect me for doing it.


----------



## ronin7411

Oh yeah what I'm doing is nothing new in my area

http://www.lagrangegraciejiu-jitsu.com/instructors.html


----------



## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Brian, to answer your question I need something to market to promoters when I fight so since I'm not a former pro wrestler from the WWE that is famous already why not be a Ninjutsu practitioner that does Muay Thai, Point Karate, BJJ, and MMA competitions? Also most of the people who have Ninjutsu backgrounds other than Jeremy Horn have quit doing MMA either because their bodies can't take it anymore or they never adapted their techniques to work in that environment. (This is how I see it if they can use Ninjutsu and compete in MMA why cant' I do it?) Also marketing is based on controversy any way so the more people that hate me or wants to see me get seriously hurt the more tickets I pull in for my bouts which means more money for me. Then factor in with this "home study course Ninja" persona I'm using I should be highly marketable to the public especially the local competition scene. If I'm really dominate also I can have something like Fedor has when people just go to my events to see if I add another body to my record or just to see if I can finally get broken and lose. Oh well, I know I'm going to be hated anyway no matter which path I choose so mind as well get use to it. Besides I hear positives and negatives to every style of the martial arts so no matter which path I take in the martial arts I'm going to be seen as a moron by some then some are going to respect me for doing it.



So you're going to misrepresent an entire art that people have dedicated their lives to learning, passing, and maintaining tradition?

Ninjutsu already has enough flack from others misrepresenting it. How is what you're doing going to earn you money? It's just going to get respectable people to not like you and for you to be embarrassed. I will show you a video of what people in MMA think of fake Ninja.
It will NOT gain you popularity, just making you a laughing stock of whoever hears you mention it. 






That's a video of another FAKE wannabe Ninja, claiming he is a Ninja trained in Ninjutsu.


----------



## ronin7411

Um Tanaka that is why you train to handle yourself in MMA competitions with MMA fighters also imagine if the guy did win what would the MMA team be saying then of him? Also everyone what do you think of the La Grange Gracie Jiu-jitsu instructor that opened his own school as well as competed just off of the Gracie Academy material ? Like I said what I'm doing is nothing new in the martial arts people have done it before we were born and people are still doing it to this day it just all boils down to dedication to perfecting your art.


----------



## Bruno@MT

So... basically you're saying that you know you are a liar and a fraud who knows nothing about the art whose name he is abusing but since other people do it too, that makes it ok?

*I know I used the f word here, but since the person said himself that he has zero legit ninjutsu skills, that is probably not fraud busting on my part.


----------



## ronin7411

So Bruno, you're calling Hwang Kee the founder of Tang Soo Do a fraud and a liar as well as every Tang Soo Do stylists one too because I'm basing my plan off of him and how he developed Tang Soo Do. Which is now one of the predominant martial arts of Korea and famous martial artist Chuck Norris studied as well if you don't believe me here is the link provided on the history of Tang Soo Do by a school in California.

http://www.octangsoodo.com/History_of_Tang_Soo_Do.php


----------



## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Um Tanaka that is why you train to handle yourself in MMA competitions with MMA fighters also imagine if the guy did win what would the MMA team be saying then of him? Also everyone what do you think of the La Grange Gracie Jiu-jitsu instructor that opened his own school as well as competed just off of the Gracie Academy material ? Like I said what I'm doing is nothing new in the martial arts people have done it before we were born and people are still doing it to this day it just all boils down to dedication to perfecting your art.



Do you know who Dominic Cruz is?
Hes a famous fighter for UFC/WEC and champion.
If he beat Dominic Cruz regardless if he claimed he was Ninja or not. UFC would definitely recognize that.

You don't have to be a fake Ninja or be a fraud to win in this world. Just be honest and display your skills. By being a fraud you only set yourself up for failure, and NO ONE taking you seriously.
It will only hurt you in the future, and your reputation.


----------



## Cryozombie

Wait, I'm confused... Ronin, 

Are you Calling your thingie Black Dragon Ninjitsu, or Does the Black Dragon Ninjitsu group train out of that location?  

I'm just trying to figure out if its Ashida Kims group, or if you are just copying his name.


----------



## Cryozombie

ronin7411 said:


> Brian, to answer your question I need something to market to promoters when I fight so since I'm not a former pro wrestler from the WWE that is famous already why not be a Ninjutsu practitioner



Amen Brother!  I'm gonna promote myself as a "Hockey Brawler" when I go fight.

And before you ask, No, I've never played Hockey, but MMA doesn't have any of them... doin' that there style, eh?  Now pass me a Molson, hosers.


----------



## ronin7411

Cryozombie said:


> Wait, I'm confused... Ronin,
> 
> Are you Calling your thingie Black Dragon Ninjitsu, or Does the Black Dragon Ninjitsu group train out of that location?
> 
> I'm just trying to figure out if its Ashida Kims group, or if you are just copying his name.



Ron Collins is affiliated with Ashida Kim and I use the name of his style which he holds rank in and the style of Ninjitsu we are going to be studying out of the location and yes Ashida Kim knows about me doing what I am doing.


----------



## ronin7411

Cryozombie said:


> Amen Brother!  I'm gonna promote myself as a "Hockey Brawler" when I go fight.
> 
> And before you ask, No, I've never played Hockey, but MMA doesn't have any of them... doin' that there style, eh?  Now pass me a Molson, hosers.



Go on ahead and do it more power to you plus good luck in competition (that is if you are really trying to be a MMA fighter)


----------



## Cryozombie

ronin7411 said:


> Ron Collins is affiliated with Ashida Kim and I use the name of his style which he holds rank in and the style of Ninjitsu we are going to be studying out of the location and yes Ashida Kim knows about me doing what I am doing.



Thanks, just lookin for clarification.


----------



## ronin7411

Tanaka said:


> Do you know who Dominic Cruz is?
> Hes a famous fighter for UFC/WEC and champion.
> If he beat Dominic Cruz regardless if he claimed he was Ninja or not. UFC would definitely recognize that.
> 
> You don't have to be a fake Ninja or be a fraud to win in this world. Just be honest and display your skills. By being a fraud you only set yourself up for failure, and NO ONE taking you seriously.
> It will only hurt you in the future, and your reputation.



I don't really watch the WEC I only watch the UFC when Lyoto, Shogun, Wanderli, Anderson, GSP, and Brock fights other than that I prefer to watch MMA overseas in Asia (right now I'm hooked on MMA in China its brutal). The only time I even bother watching the WEC is when Miguel Torres fights because he stays in my area and some of his students train with me as well.


----------



## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> I don't really watch the WEC I only watch the UFC when Lyoto, Shogun, Wanderli, Anderson, GSP, and Brock fights other than that I prefer to watch MMA overseas in Asia (right now I'm hooked on MMA in China its brutal). The only time I even bother watching the WEC is when Miguel Torres fights because he stays in my area and some of his students train with me as well.



Just be proud and represent the style you have trained hard under.


----------



## ScholarsInk

ronin7411 said:


> Ron Collins is affiliated with Ashida Kim and I use the name of his style which he holds rank in and the style of Ninjitsu we are going to be studying out of the location and yes Ashida Kim knows about me doing what I am doing.


Do you know anything about Ashida Kim? About the "Challenge" incident with Bullshido?


----------



## jks9199

I know I'm going to regret this... and I'm wondering if maybe there's a full moon around that nobody knows about...  but...





ronin7411 said:


> Brian, to answer your question I need something to market to promoters when I fight so since I'm not a former pro wrestler from the WWE that is famous already why not be a Ninjutsu practitioner that does Muay Thai, Point Karate, BJJ, and MMA competitions? Also most of the people who have Ninjutsu backgrounds other than Jeremy Horn have quit doing MMA either because their bodies can't take it anymore or they never adapted their techniques to work in that environment. (This is how I see it if they can use Ninjutsu and compete in MMA why cant' I do it?) Also marketing is based on controversy any way so the more people that hate me or wants to see me get seriously hurt the more tickets I pull in for my bouts which means more money for me. Then factor in with this "home study course Ninja" persona I'm using I should be highly marketable to the public especially the local competition scene. If I'm really dominate also I can have something like Fedor has when people just go to my events to see if I add another body to my record or just to see if I can finally get broken and lose. Oh well, I know I'm going to be hated anyway no matter which path I choose so mind as well get use to it. Besides I hear positives and negatives to every style of the martial arts so no matter which path I take in the martial arts I'm going to be seen as a moron by some then some are going to respect me for doing it.


So, you figure you can lie to promote yourself.  Might I suggest some research into INTEGRITY?  Why not simply state what you train in honestly?  Yeah, sure, hooks help, even though the MMA world isn't WWE.  But do you really want to succeed that way?  (If you succeed...)

How much real research into ninjutsu have you done?  All of the legitimate, semi-legit, and even quite a few of the questionable schools avoid competition.  It's not that they're afraid of being shown as inferior (OK, not always or not necessarily); it's that their training mindset and methodology isn't competition oriented.  Personally, I think anyone who claims that they're style is "too deadly for competition" is full of it -- but that's not the same as saying that "our training is not about competition" or "training for competition hurts training for life/reality."

What happened to your goal of teaching legitimate ninjutsu one day?  do you think you stand a good chance of getting real training from someone credible after you essentially prostituted their art?


ronin7411 said:


> So Bruno, you're calling Hwang Kee the founder of Tang Soo Do a fraud and a liar as well as every Tang Soo Do stylists one too because I'm basing my plan off of him and how he developed Tang Soo Do. Which is now one of the predominant martial arts of Korea and famous martial artist Chuck Norris studied as well if you don't believe me here is the link provided on the history of Tang Soo Do by a school in California.
> 
> http://www.octangsoodo.com/History_of_Tang_Soo_Do.php



There's quite a bit of controversy about the history of Tang Soo Do -- and the split that became Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do.  You can read all about it in lots of places...  I don't think it's a business plan that I'd emulate... even granting the existence of such a plan in the first place.



ronin7411 said:


> Ron Collins is affiliated with Ashida Kim and I use the name of his style which he holds rank in and the style of Ninjitsu we are going to be studying out of the location and yes Ashida Kim knows about me doing what I am doing.



Yeah... :uhyeah: 

A friend of mine says that "if you show me who you walk with, you tell me you are."  Might I suggest that you research your potential traveling companions on the budo road... especially if they're going to be in charge of the trip?


----------



## Bruno@MT

ronin7411 said:


> So Bruno, you're calling Hwang Kee the founder of Tang Soo Do a fraud and a liar as well as every Tang Soo Do stylists one too because I'm basing my plan off of him and how he developed Tang Soo Do. Which is now one of the predominant martial arts of Korea and famous martial artist Chuck Norris studied as well if you don't believe me here is the link provided on the history of Tang Soo Do by a school in California.
> 
> http://www.octangsoodo.com/History_of_Tang_Soo_Do.php



Basing your style off of him is one thing if you've actually trained in that style for a long time, have mastered it to some degree and understand its underlying principles is one thing.

You have done none of those things regarding ninjutsu. You haven't studied it under a real sensei in an authentic system (if it's not authentic, there is no use in calling it ninjutsu), you have not mastered it and you have no clue about its underlying principles. The only thing you have is what you've seen on a home study course, and the only reason you use the name is because it sounds cool. Winning or losing is irrelevant to the discussion. You might as well claim to learn Japanese when you are actually learning Russian. No amount of arguing will turn your Cyrillic into Kanji, even though it's all made up of squiggly lines.

You might as well have used ikebana jutsu as a name for your style and it would be as appropriate.


----------



## ronin7411

ScholarsInk said:


> Do you know anything about Ashida Kim? About the "Challenge" incident with Bullshido?


 Yes, I heard it all he's using a Korean and Japanese name, he does fake rank certificates, and the $10,000 challenge is fake. But as I previously have stated in a previous post they were the only ones that was willing to work with me in regards to me training and earning rank in Ninjitsu through a distance course. Also as I stated before I can careless about what people think of me or the people I train with as long as I meet my goals in the martial arts I'm happy. Plus everything is free including my rank test in two separate styles so can't complain about getting free stuff.


----------



## Chris Parker

Okay, Johnny. Listen up. 

I notice that you responded to everyone but myself, and I feel I had some rather vaild questions, but I'm not going to worry too much about that right now. Instead, I'm going to go through the last day or so, and try to straighten you out, although I hold little hope, to be honest.

Ready? Cause this'll cover everything...



ronin7411 said:


> Brian, to answer your question I need something to market to promoters when I fight so since I'm not a former pro wrestler from the WWE that is famous already why not be a Ninjutsu practitioner that does Muay Thai, Point Karate, BJJ, and MMA competitions?
> 
> Well, two things here. First and foremost, because none of those things are Ninjutsu!!! Training in them in no way whatsoever makes you a Ninjutsu practitioner! Secondly, such a mish-mash of systems will make you a very poor fighter, so although I would normally say "why not get famous by training hard in MMA and getting a name in amateur competitions, them moving on to semi-pro and eventually professional fights, I'm not saying that here as you are simply playing fantasy-land, and have little to no hope of really gaining any skill at all. I have made a number of posts here about why that is so, but frankly I feel it'd be so far over your head that there's little point going through it all again. Feel free to do a search, though.
> 
> But to make it absolutely clear, you in no way need to have come from the WWE to make it in MMA, in fact, it's often the other way around, MMA fighters are more likely to try to make it in the WWE, Brock and Bobby are a couple of the few exceptions. And in order to be a Ninjutsu practitioner, you need to train and practice Ninjutsu. Not the fantasy-world you're trying to inhabit here.
> 
> Also most of the people who have Ninjutsu backgrounds other than Jeremy Horn have quit doing MMA either because their bodies can't take it anymore or they never adapted their techniques to work in that environment.
> 
> Really? You spoke to them, saw their medical records, and know why they stopped?
> 
> I feel that you have absolutely no frame of reference in regards to Ninjutsu to be able to understand what I am about to say, but here goes... Ninjutsu is completely and totally non-competitive. All it's training is designed around very different needs and requirements, and as such using it as a base for a competitive use is rather like trying to use a radio to pick up television channels. Both are electronic devices with antenna's that pick up entertainment broadcasts, but they have very different uses, and to get a radio to work as a TV will need such major changes that it is rather pointless.
> 
> (This is how I see it if they can use Ninjutsu and compete in MMA why cant' I do it?)
> 
> Because you have absolutely no understanding, knowledge, skill, training etc in Ninjutsu!!!! Add to that the fact that if you are wanting to use Ninjutsu in MMA you have missed the point of both, you are really onto a really bad idea if you think they go together.
> 
> Also marketing is based on controversy any way so the more people that hate me or wants to see me get seriously hurt the more tickets I pull in for my bouts which means more money for me.
> 
> Train, get some skill, get some experience, get a bit of an amateur background, then start to look at anything which may include money. This is just another fantasy for you right now. You need more of an understanding of reality first.
> 
> Then factor in with this "home study course Ninja" persona I'm using I should be highly marketable to the public especially the local competition scene.
> 
> You would be marketable only as comic relief. And frankly, we don't need or want the publicity. Don't use our name, please, we do find it rather offensive.
> 
> If I'm really dominate also I can have something like Fedor has when people just go to my events to see if I add another body to my record or just to see if I can finally get broken and lose.
> 
> I get the feeling you would be "broken" rather quickly. If you were in any way able or willing to get the skills necessary for success in this field you wouldn't be looking for these "marketing angles" and short-cut approaches. This is still pure fantasy land. Get a grip on reality, really.
> 
> Oh well, I know I'm going to be hated anyway no matter which path I choose so mind as well get use to it.
> 
> Train in MMA for MMA!!! Really, don't pretend to be something you're not, don't bring in a name you have no right to be using, actually train in what you want to be doing, and you may well find that much of the "hating" stops. But again, this is just playing into your fantasy of being a hated MMA fighter, adding to your box office draw... really, get some reality.
> 
> Besides I hear positives and negatives to every style of the martial arts so no matter which path I take in the martial arts I'm going to be seen as a moron by some then some are going to respect me for doing it.
> 
> I'm going to be rather blunt here. You have no idea of any martial art whatsoever. And if we are going to compare who knows more and understands more about them, you're really going to be coming off second best. There's an old saying that you fight the way you train, so train for how you want to fight.... which means.... if you want to fight MMA, train in MMA!!!! Forget anything else, as you really don't have a clue!


 


ronin7411 said:


> Oh yeah what I'm doing is nothing new in my area
> 
> http://www.lagrangegraciejiu-jitsu.com/instructors.html
> 
> So you give us a link to a bit about a BJJ instructor who started with home study tapes as a supplement to working with Royce Gracie on weekend workshops, and that is supposed to be supportive for you? For one thing, we are not dealing with BJJ, which has a completely different training approach (and yes, I've done my time in BJJ, so I am speaking from experience here), and for another he used the tapes in conjuction with working under Royce Gracie!!!


 


ronin7411 said:


> Um Tanaka that is why you train to handle yourself in MMA competitions with MMA fighters also imagine if the guy did win what would the MMA team be saying then of him?
> 
> Which is why if you want to compete in MMA, train for MMA, not Ninjutsu! Seriously, can you understand that yet?
> 
> Also everyone what do you think of the La Grange Gracie Jiu-jitsu instructor that opened his own school as well as competed just off of the Gracie Academy material ?
> 
> Dealt with above.
> 
> Like I said what I'm doing is nothing new in the martial arts people have done it before we were born and people are still doing it to this day it just all boils down to dedication to perfecting your art.
> 
> No, it boils down to understanding what you are actually doing, and having the discipline to do what you have to to achieve that, which you are not doing. Get out of the fantasy land, son.
> 
> And are you suggesting that people have been "home-studying" martial arts like they do today for decades, or even centuries? I think you really need to revisit how you think martial arts are taught and trained. To give you an idea (and choose a corollary to Ninjutsu training), let's look at a very famous Koryu system... this is what you would learn in a Ninjutsu system, in terms of skills, as it is a contemporary of the Ninjutsu arts (I'm leaving off the modern adaptations of legit Ninjutsu here, just looking at the classical material), the Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, which quite incidentally includes Ninjutsu in it's teachings.
> 
> This school has a number of rules involved in joining it which have been followed very closely for centuries, including the prohibition against learning other martial arts if studying there. Here's a look at some training for Katori Shinto Ryu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9HR7TTOReE&feature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9HR7TTOReE&feature=related
> 
> How suited to the Octogon does that look? Here's a clue, if it looks suited to competition, or like anything in a movie or TV show, it isn't Ninjutsu.


 


ronin7411 said:


> So Bruno, you're calling Hwang Kee the founder of Tang Soo Do a fraud and a liar as well as every Tang Soo Do stylists one too because I'm basing my plan off of him and how he developed Tang Soo Do.
> 
> No, you're not. You're freely admitting that you're "learning ninjitsu" from a known fraud without an instructor to use in an environment which is completely anathema to genuine Ninjutsu. You're only basing your plans on fantasy. Get some reality, you need it.
> 
> Which is now one of the predominant martial arts of Korea and famous martial artist Chuck Norris studied as well if you don't believe me here is the link provided on the history of Tang Soo Do by a school in California.
> 
> [URL="http://www.octangsoodo.com/History_of_Tang_Soo_Do.php"]http://www.octangsoodo.com/History_of_Tang_Soo_Do.php[/URL]
> 
> You have no link to Tang Soo Do, they have no part in this discussion, finding things which vaguely suit your fantasy of what you want to do in no way helps your argument. You need some reality here, but with all that has been supplied here and elsewhere, you aren't picking it up. Try.


 


ronin7411 said:


> Ron Collins is affiliated with Ashida Kim and I use the name of his style which he holds rank in and the style of Ninjitsu we are going to be studying out of the location and yes Ashida Kim knows about me doing what I am doing.
> 
> This is out and out a reason for you to never be taken seriously in regards to Ninjutsu or anything to do with martial arts, really. You have been told about Ron on another forum (he posts here as "Draven", so you know... occasionally tries to argue history or some other such with me, but as his system is what it is, that never really goes well for him....), you claim to know about Ashida Kim, have you not come across that fact that simply by saying you are associated with them you will essentially be laughed out of any situation involving Ninjutsu? This is what we mean when we say we don't need such publicity, we really don't need a "representative" of theirs, no matter how untrained, using the term Ninjutsu, it's bad enough with them and others doing it.


 


ronin7411 said:


> Go on ahead and do it more power to you plus good luck in competition (that is if you are really trying to be a MMA fighter)
> 
> Er, you do know that Cryo wasn't serious about fighting MMA? Really, if that simple joke escapes you, it's no wonder that you're not getting the subtleties of "authentic Ninjutsu is found in the X-Kan's, fake, non-authentic, unbased, ignorant 'ninjitsu' is found in these other groups". And Ninjutsu is not designed nor suited for MMA, no matter how much you think it'll sell tickets.


 


ronin7411 said:


> I don't really watch the WEC I only watch the UFC when Lyoto, Shogun, Wanderli, Anderson, GSP, and Brock fights other than that I prefer to watch MMA overseas in Asia (right now I'm hooked on MMA in China its brutal). The only time I even bother watching the WEC is when Miguel Torres fights because he stays in my area and some of his students train with me as well.
> 
> But you do get that none of this has anything to do with Ninjutsu at all, don't you?


 


ronin7411 said:


> Yes, I heard it all he's using a Korean and Japanese name, he does fake rank certificates, and the $10,000 challenge is fake.
> 
> That, really, is the least of it. Far more importantly his "ninjitsu" is based on delusions and fantasy, have no basis in reality, have nothing to do with actual Ninjutsu, Ninja, or even Japan. He is basically a joke, and not just in Ninjutsu circles.... in fact when a new suspicious claim comes up, it is usually refered to as a new "Ashida" coming up. Okay?
> 
> But as I previously have stated in a previous post they were the only ones that was willing to work with me in regards to me training and earning rank in Ninjitsu through a distance course.
> 
> Of course they are. The legitimate ones want real, dedicated students, the less-than-authentic ones just want more people to feed into their delusions. Why do you think they're giving you this stuff? Oh, and not that it's a recommendation, and not hugely popular, but Steve Hayes with his Toshindo organisation offer a distance learning course, as does Richard Van Donk, which you very well know. On your Budoseek thread you mention this specifically, going so far as to suggest that if you do your distance-learning from RVD that you are "stealing from the Bujinkan", whereas here you are only besmirching the name of legitimate Ninjutsu by claiming that you are learning it from these guys. Would it possibly be because both RVD and Hayes insist that you actually do some work in order to rank (with Hayes' set-up it is designed that you have regular contact with a teacher, ideally a weekend workshop or some other such means, which is what your BJJ guy did earlier....)?
> 
> Also as I stated before I can careless about what people think of me or the people I train with as long as I meet my goals in the martial arts I'm happy.
> 
> Your goals are a fantasy, and will never be met. Just so you know. And if you don't mind being called a fraud, being laughed at, then that's fine for you. But really, stop dragging our name through this, we're a little over it.
> 
> Plus everything is free including my rank test in two separate styles so can't complain about getting free stuff.
> 
> Yes you can. But you won't, as it fulfillls your fantasy, as well as theirs.
> 
> Seriously, get some reality. Or at least don't refer to the mess you're dealing with as Ninjutsu, it's as related to Ninjutsu as a conga line.


----------



## ScholarsInk

ASHIDA KIM DOES NOT KNOW ANY NINJUTSU.

Is that so hard to understand? He is a joke in the MMA world - if word gets out that you're his student, you'll be laughed out of any major event.

I may find your posts annoying but I would honestly caution you to stay away from Kim, Dux and such. Their followers are very cultish and you never know what they might do if you decide to leave. I remember hearing about some of Dux's people coming to Stephen Hayes' dojo to kill him because they felt his teaching ninjutsu was disrespectful to their 'great master'.

Additionally, someone mentioned on Budoseek that your potential "Black Dragon" teacher is a pedophile; pedophiles don't exactly go down too well with MMA guys (or anyone else for that matter, but MMA guys are much more able to beat the crap out of someone)


----------



## Tanaka

Chris Parker said:


> This school has a number of rules involved in  joining it which have been followed very closely for centuries,  including the prohibition against learning other martial arts if  studying there. Here's a look at some training for Katori Shinto Ryu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9HR7...eature=related



Really good video. Thanks for sharing that find.


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## ronin7411

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, Johnny. Listen up.
> 
> I notice that you responded to everyone but myself, and I feel I had some rather vaild questions, but I'm not going to worry too much about that right now. Instead, I'm going to go through the last day or so, and try to straighten you out, although I hold little hope, to be honest.
> 
> Ready? Cause this'll cover everything...



I did answer your question Chris I just did a general answer and its simple Ninjitsu is a controversial style to even consider taking up no matter who you learn it from and if I was going to go with the mindset of my friends who are into BJJ and MMA. (I'll keep at this I'm the nice one out of all of them) I wouldn't even be taking your advice either because people question Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage and Takamatsu's claims as well to Ninjitsu. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68729 So since people think the Bujinkan is fake and Hatsumi and Takamatsu are frauds as well why should even bother studying with the Bujinkan since their lineage has holes in it as well ? I'll answer it for you because I like the style and I don't care about lineage because people think the Bujinkan are frauds as well as all people who study Ninjitsu. You know what a majority of martial artists say Ninjitsu practitioners are LARPers even if I did study with the Bujinkan I would still hear the same things that you say Ashida Kim does as well.


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## jks9199

There are numerous threads that discuss the issues here on MT.  I suggest you peruse them; they're written by people who are far more knowledgeable than you are about the issues.

And I strongly suggest that if what you're describing is your plan -- drop the ninjutsu line entirely.  It's disrespectful, duplicitous, and just plain stupid.  If you have integrity, you won't choose to use deceit to promote yourself.


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## ronin7411

ScholarsInk said:


> Additionally, someone mentioned on Budoseek that your potential "Black Dragon" teacher is a pedophile; pedophiles don't exactly go down too well with MMA guys (or anyone else for that matter, but MMA guys are much more able to beat the crap out of someone)



Here is the West Virginia Sex Offender Search http://www.wvstatepolice.com/sexoff/ type in Ron Collins or Ronald Collins if you like his name doesn't show up as a sex offender which Samuel Browning found as well.


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## Brian R. VanCise

You can choose who you decide to train with.  However, people will choose how the interact and communicate with you based on your choices.   Right now we are all trying to just give you some advice that if you take a minute you probably will realize that the advice given is pretty sound!  Unfortunately your course of action right now will cause most people to just laugh and really in the end not want to communicate with you at all.  Not all choices are good ones!


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## Chris Parker

ronin7411 said:


> I did answer your question Chris I just did a general answer and its simple Ninjitsu is a controversial style to even consider taking up no matter who you learn it from and if I was going to go with the mindset of my friends who are into BJJ and MMA. (I'll keep at this I'm the nice one out of all of them) I wouldn't even be taking your advice either because people question Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage and Takamatsu's claims as well to Ninjitsu. http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=68729 So since people think the Bujinkan is fake and Hatsumi and Takamatsu are frauds as well why should even bother studying with the Bujinkan since their lineage has holes in it as well ? I'll answer it for you because I like the style and I don't care about lineage because people think the Bujinkan are frauds as well as all people who study Ninjitsu. You know what a majority of martial artists say Ninjitsu practitioners are LARPers even if I did study with the Bujinkan I would still hear the same things that you say Ashida Kim does as well.


 
No, I actually didn't see any answers to the issues I mentioned.... but I'll let that go for now.

As to your latest little ideas here, as JKS said these have been dealt with many times over. A good starting point in reference to the questions may be here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85961

Read through that. Especially the link that Bruno provides.

But the most important thing is that if you genuinely want to study Ninjutsu, the X-Kan are the only legitimate source you can find, aside from small parts of overall curriculums in some rare Koryu systems (such as Katori Shinto Ryu), and there the concept is rather different. And you may also note that only a couple of the systems related to Ninjutsu are questioned (namely Togakure Ryu, and often including Gyokushin and Kumogakure Ryu), systems related to Ninjutsu such as Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu are seen to be fine, and systems taught within the X-Kans such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishinden Ryu are definately above reproach in terms of legitmacy.

Now, you are asking that "if people think that the Bujinkan is fake.... why should you even bother training in the Bujinkan if their lineage has holes in it as well". You're really missing things here. The Bujinkan lineages has some questions, the lineage of Ashida Kim and those associated with him doesn't have any questions... it's known as being outright fraudulant with no basis in anything close to any Japanese system, let alone Ninjutsu, nor indeed anything close to reality in their training/system/teachings. 

So the choice, if you want Ninjutsu, is between an organisation recognised as the only legitmate source for Ninjutsu, with known and highly respected martial traditions included in the syllabus, a truly Japanese art, or a group of people who use an incorrect pronunciation and spelling of a Japanese word (showing how little they actually know about the art, culture, and so on), with no basis in anything even closely resembling any Japanese art, and a history not so much full of holes, but with very occasional patches of slightly plausible moments.... but really not many (incorrect times for history, incorrect geography, incorrect names and titles, incorrect terminology, incorrect weaponry and tactics, and so on).

But really, drop the idea of Ninjutsu. You have no idea whatsoever, and neither do the people you're "learning" from. You want MMA, go train MMA. But I really don't think you'll get anywhere, as you don't have the discipline, patience, or anything else required if your posting here and on Budoseek is any indication (notice you've gotten yourself suspended there... can't say I'm surprised!).


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## Muawijhe

Ronin,

You seem like a nice enough guy. I respect your desire for martial arts training, though misguided as it seems to be. However, I suggest you drop the idea of "Ninjutsu" and "Ninjitsu" all together. Ninjutsu doesn't sound like it is what you want. I think a nice legit MMA gym would do you wonders.

And ninjitsu, Ashida Kim's "style", I would avoid. I'm quite familiar with it, have some of his books, and even one of his certificates of black belt. No good will come of that for you.

Stop searching the internet, forget anything you've learned about martial arts, find a nice instructor, and train. And the harder it is, the less "movie cool" it seems, probably the better.

And should all else fail, just play Mortal Kombat until you can beat all of the other kids online and declare yourself a master.


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## ronin7411

Eh, I got what I wanted from Budo Seek I saw an ad on there looking for people to train with in the martial arts and I sent the guy a message to talk to him about training with him but I was a year late with the message. Its cool though I came to find out that he is training with the guys that host Elite Cage Fighting in Indianapolis and since I was the only one that really responded to the ad on Budo Seek. He told me to give him a day notice and he'll have me do some training with his MMA team to help me out with my martial arts training. Also he truly respects me for wanting to train with anybody that I can find despite what martial arts background they have and he constantly tells me never give up as long as I train hard and push myself I will get somewhere.


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## jks9199

Let me make something clear.

Nobody is suggesting that doing some training with people from various styles is bad.  In fact, I dare say many of us have done this more than once... Some of us probably do it regularly.  It can be a lot of fun, as well as quite educational, to experience different styles and the tactics and strategies they use.

I can't address the club you posted links to; as I said several pages back, it looks like they train hard.  I have questions about the credentials they have in some of the things they teach -- but they seem to be honest about what they're doing.

But if you're going to accept so-called training from well documented frauds like Ashida Kim and claim that you're doing a style that you have no real experience in...  You're on a screwy track.  Again, I point you to my friend's saying: *Show me who you walk with, and I'll tell you who you are.*  Do you want to be someone people don't want to admit training with or knowing?  Or someone that they take great pride in saying they train with and know?


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## Mac1964

Dear ronin,
  It seems like you consider arguing training more than anything else.They keep telling you the facts but you don't want to hear them.You might try posting the whole train with me thing in the general forum. In truth I've seen your same posts over on another site. 
  Try something new maybe you'll have a new result!
 Peace..


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## ronin7411

Actually I found me a training partner specifically for my Ninjitsu training but I still cross-train in TKD, BJJ, Kickboxing, and MMA whenever I'm open.


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## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Actually I found me a training partner specifically for my Ninjitsu training but I still cross-train in TKD, BJJ, Kickboxing, and MMA whenever I'm open.



That's good. Keep calling it Ninjitsu, because from what I've seen. You aren't practicing in Ninjutsu.


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## Indagator

Interesting thread. I just finished reading all seven pages of it.

Ronin, if you still read new posts in this thread, I would like to share something with you from my own history.

When I was a lad, maybe 16 or so, I learned of a ninjutsu dojo about an hour and a half away from me. At the time I had only a pushbike for transport, and so had no way of travelling the distance to get to the town in which the dojo was located. I left home rather young, and at this point I had been on my own for a couple of years already and wasn't on good terms with the family, so asking for a ride was not an option either.
The reasons for wanting to learn were much as you would expect from a 16 year old boy - I wanted to be a tough guy, be able to beat people up, not be able to be pushed around or easily messed with.
So after awhile, I realised I would not be able to train in ninjutsu, so I joined the local Muay Thai gym. I trained in Muay Thai for four years, loved every minute of it, grew as a person (this one is massively important) and I feel I gave it my all, and was rewarded well for that. After that, I moved to another town, near a Bujinkan dojo, but was unable to train due to work schedules. So I trained in Wing chun for a while, but the philosophy and forms did not gel with me, so I stopped.

Seven years after I first knew that I wanted to study ninjutsu, one random email resulted in a chain of events that saw me begin training in ninjutsu. It was nothing like what I had thought it would be, but I loved it right away. I travel 40km each way to train, and money isn't exactly free-flowing in my household, but it's worth it.

I believe that, had I began training back when I was a kid, I would not have been ready. The time was not right, my mind was not right, my spirit was not right.

So if your focus is the way that it appears to be now, go with that. Follow the MMA path, and enjoy it. And when you are ready for another journey, maybe then will be the time to look at ninjutsu.

Listen to these guys here, too, they know what they are talking about.

All the best.


----------



## ronin7411

Indagator said:


> Interesting thread. I just finished reading all seven pages of it.
> 
> Ronin, if you still read new posts in this thread, I would like to share something with you from my own history.
> 
> When I was a lad, maybe 16 or so, I learned of a ninjutsu dojo about an hour and a half away from me. At the time I had only a pushbike for transport, and so had no way of travelling the distance to get to the town in which the dojo was located. I left home rather young, and at this point I had been on my own for a couple of years already and wasn't on good terms with the family, so asking for a ride was not an option either.
> The reasons for wanting to learn were much as you would expect from a 16 year old boy - I wanted to be a tough guy, be able to beat people up, not be able to be pushed around or easily messed with.
> So after awhile, I realised I would not be able to train in ninjutsu, so I joined the local Muay Thai gym. I trained in Muay Thai for four years, loved every minute of it, grew as a person (this one is massively important) and I feel I gave it my all, and was rewarded well for that. After that, I moved to another town, near a Bujinkan dojo, but was unable to train due to work schedules. So I trained in Wing chun for a while, but the philosophy and forms did not gel with me, so I stopped.
> 
> Seven years after I first knew that I wanted to study ninjutsu, one random email resulted in a chain of events that saw me begin training in ninjutsu. It was nothing like what I had thought it would be, but I loved it right away. I travel 40km each way to train, and money isn't exactly free-flowing in my household, but it's worth it.
> 
> I believe that, had I began training back when I was a kid, I would not have been ready. The time was not right, my mind was not right, my spirit was not right.
> 
> So if your focus is the way that it appears to be now, go with that. Follow the MMA path, and enjoy it. And when you are ready for another journey, maybe then will be the time to look at ninjutsu.
> 
> Listen to these guys here, too, they know what they are talking about.
> 
> All the best.



Eh, I got what I wanted someone to help me with my studies in Koga Ryu Ninjitsu besides this is a X-Kan ran thread anyway. You can tell using my thread as proof along with this one about a guy trying to start his own study group using their style as a basis but no one really gave him any crap like they gave me. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90364 Along with how they all ganged up on this one guy that trained with Frank Dux in this one thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90055&page=3 so unless you study with an X-Kan you're nothing in their eyes but I'm still trying to figure out how is Robert Bussey a fraud and a fake when he was a Bujinkan instructor himself at one time and even appeared on their documentary Shinobi:Winds of 34 Generations after his break with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.


----------



## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Eh, I got what I wanted someone to help me with my studies in Koga Ryu Ninjitsu besides this is a X-Kan ran thread anyway. You can tell using my thread as proof along with this one about a guy trying to start his own study group using their style as a basis but no one really gave him any crap like they gave me. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90364 Along with how they all ganged up on this one guy that trained with Frank Dux in this one thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90055&page=3 so unless you study with an X-Kan you're nothing in their eyes but I'm still trying to figure out how is Robert Bussey a fraud and a fake when he was a Bujinkan instructor himself at one time and even appeared on their documentary Shinobi:Winds of 34 Generations after his break with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.




The guy who was starting a training group had already trained in legitimate Ninjutsu. That's why they didn't give him too hard of a time. But they told him he was still too inexperienced to be doing such a thing. In which he listened. 

I know this is hard for you to understand, since you obviously don't understand how Traditional Japanese Arts work. But they have a right to get irritated with people who don't have connections to Ninjutsu lineage, and then try to make their own "Ninjutsu"(Which is actually impossible at this time period)

So you're studying in "Koga ryu" now? 
Hehe.
Excuse me while I go smack my head.


----------



## Chris Parker

ronin7411 said:


> Eh, I got what I wanted someone to help me with my studies in Koga Ryu Ninjitsu besides this is a X-Kan ran thread anyway. You can tell using my thread as proof along with this one about a guy trying to start his own study group using their style as a basis but no one really gave him any crap like they gave me. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90364 Along with how they all ganged up on this one guy that trained with Frank Dux in this one thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=90055&page=3 so unless you study with an X-Kan you're nothing in their eyes but I'm still trying to figure out how is Robert Bussey a fraud and a fake when he was a Bujinkan instructor himself at one time and even appeared on their documentary Shinobi:Winds of 34 Generations after his break with Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.


 
Johnny.

This is probably going to cross the fraudbusting lines, but I suppose it's just the mood you've found me in here. So let's see how we go.

There is no such thing as Koga Ryu anymore. No-one who claims to teach any form of it has any basis in anything close to authentic training or traditions. Futhermore, there is no such thing as "ninjitsu", so anyone that uses that term is also completely lacking in any understanding, or authentic training. Add to that your home training approach, combined with you mixing up with other things, and the results will be far from ideal.

Now, to the threads you linked. The first one was a former student of my organisation, way back in the day, and even though he has legitimate training, he was told that there would be real obstacles to his plan of just teaching what he remembered from over two decades ago. He was also given the offer of support from our organisation. The second one, well, as said there, if Josh enjoys his training with Frank, that's one thing, but to think that it was in any way legitimate Ninjutsu training was rather inaccurate. Same with yourself. You may get something out of the training (not sure what, though....), but if you think it is Ninjutsu in any real way shape, or form, then you are either deluding yourself, or you are being had. The reason this is, as you call it, "an X-Kan thread", is that you started stating you wanted to train in Ninjutsu (and even open a dojo), you were asking on Kutaki no Mura, and everywhere else, and the only way for you to train Ninjutsu (authentically) is in the X-Kan or related organisations. Not Frank Dux, Ashida Kim, Black Dragon Society, or anything like it.


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## Bruno@MT

ronin7411 said:


> Eh, I got what I wanted someone to help me with my studies in Koga Ryu Ninjitsu.



Most of us here take our studies seriously. You are not learning Koga Ryu because there is noone left to teach it. The name Koga Ryu has been seized by many frauds, precisely because noone can tell them they stink. They use Koga Ryu as a title for their made up art / fantasy.

Because of this, noone wants to help you train because they don't want to be associated with such nonsense. I know that noone with (continued) teaching authority in Genbukan has tolerance for neo Koga Ryu. And again I say: this doesn't mean that what they do is not suitable for fighting or that they can't kick my ***. It means that it isn't ninjutsu.

Take the youtube vid of dux ryu for example. They call it koga ryu and it is packed with jigh kicks and jumping spin kicks. None of these are use in actual ninjutsu. They are just included for the flashiness by whomever saw fit to use Koga Ryu as a name for their version of TKD / karate.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

I know that in Chicago there are seminars and so on.. I would suggest trying to get as involved as possible in any of those or any camps that may pop up!... It can be real hard to find a good school but even if you pick up little bits at a time your improving.. Keep training.. 

An Uke's (Training Partner) advice can be great... An Instructor is invaluable however... I do agree with that...

Im not concerned in how you spell whatever!! Im just another Uke...
If you cant find anything suitable beyond your Koga Guy... And yea Im sad to say I have to agree with the others, I fail to see how a guy can claim Koga Ryu... But hey, there are always distant student options.. Remember any MA info is valuable if used in the right manner!
At this point even getting some Von Donk videos can at least get you on a halfway right track!

Good luck Ronin


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## Chris Parker

Son, frankly it's not going to help offering any kind of good wishes to Johnny here, especially this long after the time itself. He's made his decisions, and that's where he's going. It has nothing to do with actual Ninjutsu whatsoever, but he wasn't interested in listening to any advice from anyone who knew what they were talking about, and that's the end of it, frankly.

As to spelling, if you're not concerned about how it's spelt, that's fine. But do realise that there is a correct way and an incorrect way, again end of story. I do have to ask, though, you claim that you can't see how anyone can claim Koga Ryu, however you are linked in with, of all things, "Black Scorpion Ninjutsu Society", who are linked with many of these "Koga" groups, including a major association with "Ookami Kamichi Ninjutsu", who claim, amongst other things, the following:

 Ookamikamichi Ninjutsu was founded by Sensei Abdur Rauf it is a Koga system and is made up from Koga Ryu, Iga Ryu, AND Islamic Ninjutsu. (Wich is a Koga and Ninja Kung Fu system)  The Ookamikamichi Ninjutsu Society is a Black Scorpion Ninjutsu Society Dojo.

The O.K.N.S. is based out of saline michigan. The founder of Ookami Kamichi Ninjutsu. And also founded his families system called Tiger do ninjutsu, and his other art called Nin Kwan Fu Ninja Kung Fu. Is Sensei Abdur Rauf. 

Ookami Kamichi Ninjutsu is a Japanese and a Native American art as well.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

I was empathetic to the guys thread gone haywire.. The spelling thing.. I was trying to be the only one here to kind of "never mind" the fact he repeatedly misspelled Ninjutsu and focused on the fact a person is searching for ninjutsu.. this post seemed to mostly bash him.. 

Yea, Im proud to be a part of the B.S.N.S.. They have a good program going.. Im not a school ranking through them however.. We are with the I.M.F.. But I support the BSNS.. I support all who train...


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## Tanaka

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I was empathetic to the guys thread gone haywire.. The spelling thing.. I was trying to be the only one here to kind of "never mind" the fact he repeatedly misspelled Ninjutsu and focused on the fact a person is searching for ninjutsu.. this post seemed to mostly bash him..
> 
> Yea, Im proud to be a part of the B.S.N.S.. They have a good program going.. Im not a school ranking through them however.. We are with the I.M.F.. But I support the BSNS.. I support all who train...


So you wouldn't find it the least bit offensive or hopeless if someone kept misspelling your name. Then after correcting them multiple times; they still misspell it?
To me that says
1)They don't respect my name and me enough to learn how to spell it properly(Why bother trying to teach someone like this?)
or 
2)They obviously don't want to spell it correctly, and don't mind being ignorant(Why bother trying to teach someone like this?)


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

I would never turn my back on someone that was interested and had a good heart..

We train for the heart!!


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## Chris Parker

Okay, then, first off the thread went haywire because Johnny asked for advice, then ignored it, and constantly argued against those who offered it. As to the spelling thing, again you may not mind, but those who were offering the advice (and correction) were less concerned with whether or not he spelt it correctly, and more with how he was ignoring those who he asked for input from in the first place.

I'm going to offer my personal opinion on something here, which is something I rarely do. 

Anyone who associates themselves with "We accept anyone, regardless of art, style, affiliation etc, we rank you and provide certification" as a primary ranking board is frankly ridiculous. There is no way that any association can rank someone in an art they don't teach themselves, and it is just a way to provide a sense of legitmacy without the burden of actually having standards or belonging to something real.

Frankly your ranking system screams of fantasy (you seem to misunderstand pretty much every term used, up to and including Ronin and An-shu). You seem to have some legit training (former Bujinkan and present Toshindo.... although I wonder why you're training in one art when you have "founded" your own version of the same art....), so I'm confused as to why you're associating with Neo-Ninja groups with such a lack of credibility. Oh, and Kumori means "Clouds of the Mountains"? Kumo is cloud, sure, but mountain is either Yama or San. Not sure where this translation comes from.

I do have a theory, but it's not particularly flattering. But I'm not interested in getting in another discussion of "what is Ninjutsu", there's enough of those around here. I will just say that your take on Ninjutsu seems to be rather coloured by fantasy, so don't be surprised when it's taken that way.

Oh, and Johnny was given many chances to actually learn, which he refused. I wouldn't say that shows much interest in actually learning, or anything positive in terms of his "heart", frankly. Again, this type of terminology is rather movie-heavy.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Chris Parker said:


> I wouldn't say that shows much interest in actually learning, or anything positive in terms of his "heart", frankly. Again, this type of terminology is rather movie-heavy.



Actually Soke Hatsumi said "We train for the heart"

Im very proud of my Ryu.. Your opinions are noted..


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Chris Parker said:


> Frankly your ranking system screams of fantasy (you seem to misunderstand pretty much every term used, up to and including Ronin and An-shu).



Im quite aware that in the Clandestine times there were no ranks but only position,Genin, Chunin, Jonin, Ive taken the positions and have turned them into a rank structure for us.. The Ro-Nin rank is simply when you become a Masterless Warrior. As for An-Shu Its a title for a director or founder.. So I use it...

Kumori means Clouds up high or aloft.. I use the mountains to describe the feeling it conveys..

Thank you again for your attention to My school and My efforts!


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## Chris Parker

Er, okay? Clandestine times? Not sure what you're on about there, honestly. Genin, Chunin, Jonin, there's little evidence of these terms ever being used at any point in history, if they were they were not something that you would move up through. The Ronin aspect is actually far from just being a "masterless warrior", and An-Shu can be used as "Director", but not "Founder".

I'm happy that you're proud of your school, really I am, but fact is that you are presenting an image that is fairly removed from the legitimate systems, despite your background in some of them.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Chris Parker said:


> Er, okay? Clandestine times? Not sure what you're on about there, honestly. Genin, Chunin, Jonin, there's little evidence of these terms ever being used at any point in history, if they were they were not something that you would move up through. The Ronin aspect is actually far from just being a "masterless warrior", and An-Shu can be used as "Director", but not "Founder".
> 
> I'm happy that you're proud of your school, really I am, but fact is that you are presenting an image that is fairly removed from the legitimate systems, despite your background in some of them.



So are you gonna take my Ninja card then..Lol... also.. Ive seen and read that the terms used were a system to set up a clans hierarchy. 
Im aware you would not progress though them..


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## Chris Parker

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Kumori means Clouds up high or aloft.. I use the mountains to describe the feeling it conveys..


 
Kanji if you would be so kind? Most terms that I can find with that type of meaning are things like "Taka", or "Agaru/Age", and none of them have a reading of "Ri". 

Oh, and I'm not taking any card away from you.... not yet.... All I'm suggesting is that you recognise how you're coming across here.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Chris Parker said:


> Kanji if you would be so kind? Most terms that I can find with that type of meaning are things like "Taka", or "Agaru/Age", and none of them have a reading of "Ri".
> 
> Oh, and I'm not taking any card away from you.... not yet.... All I'm suggesting is that you recognise how you're coming across here.



Dude.. Get over yourself... Im done here!!

Thanks but no thanks!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I would never turn my back on someone that was interested and had a good heart..
> 
> We train for the heart!!



Ultimately, if you want to train any art, then there are do's and don't's.
Whether it is calligraphy, tea ceremony, iaido, or ninjutsu.
If you want to learn Japanese calligraphy, you don't argue that using a bic is the same thing.
If you want to learn tea, you don't argue that you prefer coffee.
If you practice iaido you don't bring a wallhanger sword to class and tell the teacher that it'll do just as well.
And if you train the art known as ninjutsu, then you don't say it doesn matter if you say ninjitsu or not, or pretend it is ninjutsu if it has no roots to Japan.
To do otherwise is to annoy the people who do take their art seriously.

Regardless of whether someone has a good heart or not, or is trying really hard... sometimes, things are just wrong.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> Er, okay? Clandestine times? Not sure what you're on about there, honestly. Genin, Chunin, Jonin, there's little evidence of these terms ever being used at any point in history, if they were they were not something that you would move up through.



From what I have gathered, it was similar to the caste system as it still used in India today.


----------



## Chris Parker

The big issue is that outside of a few references from Hayes in some of his older books, and of course things like Naruto, there doesn't seem to be much mention at all of such titles/ranks. Stephen Turnbull theorised that it was simply a term used for short periods of time when a mission was being undertaken, rather than a permanent position. And it of course implies the idea that there was a seperation between Ninja and other warrior groups, which also seems to go against the evidence that history leaves (with groups being more refered to as "Iga warriors" etc).


----------



## oaktree

&#26311;/&#26311;&#12426; Kumori-by itself means like cloudy,foggy something like that.
&#26311;&#22825;Kumori ten-cloudy,foggy sky.


So what Kumori ryu means is like the school of cloudy weather.....
 I guess its better than &#39340;&#40575; &#30333;&#20154; &#27969;-baka hakujin ryu.

:shrug:


----------



## Bruno@MT

Stupid white man ryu?
See. I knew learning Japanese would pay off 
(My goal for this year is to learn the kyoiku kanji).


----------



## oaktree

Bruno@MT said:


> Stupid white man ryu?
> See. I knew learning Japanese would pay off
> (My goal for this year is to learn the kyoiku kanji).


 
Correctomundo


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Your calling me Stupid. Well how Cute...

Thanks!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Your calling me Stupid. Well how Cute...
> 
> Thanks!



He wasn't. He said your name was better than his example. Probably to point out that even though your name is not wholly thought through, at least it is not embarrassingly bad like the alternative.

But otoh, if you are going to make up a Japanese name for your system, it might be a good idea to have it checked by a person who speaks Japanese. Just like if you'd get a kanji tattoo.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

It was implied... I think Ill move on...
Good day.


----------



## jks9199

Folks, 

MT remains a FRIENDLY forum.  Drop the personal shots and sniping.


----------



## oaktree

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Your calling me Stupid. Well how Cute...
> 
> Thanks!


 
I am not calling you stupid per say, just when people start using Japanese names or Chinese names to call themselves or school or whatever and it comes out to mean
something like: Cloudy weather school it just sounds stupid to me and _it is almost as bad as calling yourself baka hakujin ryu._

There were many such cases of people creating their own branches of what they consider Ninjutsu and adding some obscure Japanese name.

Also the average Japanese when hearing of some funny ninjutsu ryuha name that an American made up will do one of two things 1.remain silent 2.may ask you about why you choose that meaning.

This has been my experience when asking Japanese what they think about subjects like this.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

I used the name because the Clouds have great meaning to me...
They are like the heavens on earth... 

Im sorry that something I take seriously is stupid to you.. But to be honest I didn't ask you if you like my name or not... 

I commented here on this thread to help encourage an uke in the arts.. 

I hope that you can do the same for someone!!


----------



## oaktree

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I used the name because the Clouds have great meaning to me...
> They are like the heavens on earth...
> 
> Im sorry that something I take seriously is stupid to you.. But to be honest I didn't ask you if you like my name or not...
> 
> I commented here on this thread to help encourage an uke in the arts..
> 
> I hope that you can do the same for someone!!


 
 Hi Kumori I will try to be more gentle maybe my post was a little rude. My apologies.
  I understand you like clouds. The word you picked is Kumori &#26311;.
 Now the word Kumori means 1.Cloudy(as in like a storm) 2.Overcast 3.Dark clouds.
So naming your school the Overcast school or Dark cloud school it is a very strange name.

When you add Ninjutsu to the name it sounds even stranger.

My post was really not directed towards you it was in response to Mr.Parker


> Kanji if you would be so kind?


I thought he was asking in regards to the Kanji for Kumori.

It is also a bit odd to create a Ninjutsu ryuha without some sort of Menkyo or transmission from 1.Soke or figure head 2.Menkyo in the system.

I am in no way attacking you I am pointing out things that may draw up criticism or potential students or people may ask you.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

We had a guy pass through here who basically made up his systems name from his own made up language. He got a lot of flack. He insisted it was ninjutsu, even though it had zero ties to anything Japanese. Even the word ninjutsu was misspelled. He was eventually removed from here after much disruption on his part. When dealing with unfamiliar languages, its best to get a trusted person to verify all translations and grammar.  Otherwise, it'll be a long term headache for all involved.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

I thank you all for your opinions


----------



## Omar B

Screw it.  This thread is f-ed anyway.


----------



## ronin7411

For starters Chris I was here looking for people to train with not your advice and even though you knock me learning from home study courses. I see more Bujinkan instructors and their off-shots than any other style and lineage coming out with home study courses or "at home training material" for the style of Ninjutsu. Also since you guys knock home study courses how do you feel about what Grandmaster Robert Law and David Suzuki say in an article claiming Masaaki Hatsumi is over commercializing Ninjutsu with home study courses that he grades on the progress of students on the Bujinkan home study courses. Now should I also mention that he's ex Bujinkan himself and along with Stephen Hayes and Robert Bussey breaking away to do their own thing motivated him to do the same as well.

http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/ 

http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html


----------



## Bruno@MT

There is nothing wrong with home study guides IF they are used in conjunction with live training. Tanemura sensei also has the kyu curriculum available on DVD for those who want to buy it. They can be helpful as a study guide to help you prepare for your exams, especially if you only see your sensei every other week or once per month. But having a sensei is essential.

And I'd like to see some proof that Hatsumi sensei is grading people over home study courses before we go down that road. I know RVD does it, and he is considered dubious by many in the Bujinkan, with his 'up to 4th dan' home study exams and his fake menkyo kaiden in 'ninjutsu ryu'. Given thatmost serious Bujinkan people I know loath him, it would surprise me greatly if Hatsumi sensei would do such things.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Bruno@MT said:


> I know RVD does it, and he is considered dubious by many in the Bujinkan, with his 'up to 4th dan' home study exams and his fake menkyo kaiden in 'ninjutsu ryu'.




Id love to know why my Sensei hates this guy lol.... Well to say the least Sensei Ennan showed his distaste in his teachings and his material...

I never knew the whole story but Id love to here your take on it... 

Thanks


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

oaktree said:


> It is also a bit odd to create a Ninjutsu ryuha without some sort of Menkyo or transmission from 1.Soke or figure head 2.Menkyo in the system.
> 
> I am in no way attacking you I am pointing out things that may draw up criticism or potential students or people may ask you.



Actually while in discussion with my past Sensei..
He had stated that "any one that has learned anything can teach... You can not rank Bujinkan however with out the requirements"... I discussed the idea of training and teaching in my area which was an hour from him. He didn't show any signs of distaste in my intentions... I had emailed him several times to update him and keep track... Im in the midst of finalizing my dues to him {this stuff aint cheap} once that is finished I plan on continuing my training to aid in my teaching...  

I pondered that statement for some time... My sense is not terribly personable so it is difficult to approach him to confront all the issues with his written release of permission to teach what Ive learned from him..  

So in regards to your post I appreciate your attention to my history with Ninjutsu...

Thankyou!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Id love to know why my Sensei hates this guy lol.... Well to say the least Sensei Ennan showed his distaste in his teachings and his material...
> 
> I never knew the whole story but Id love to here your take on it...
> 
> Thanks



Many buj people hate him because he does 2 things that reputable people don't agree with.

1) he sells home study courses and grades you up to 4th dan just for paying the fee, thus devaluing the perception of bujinkan as a whole.

2) he claims to hold a menkyo kaiden in something called 'ninjutsu ryu' which is so obviously fraudulent (*) it is not even funny. The cornerstone of the authenticity discussion within the ninjutsu world are the menkyo kaiden in the schools from which the founders composed their system. Those menkyo kaiden are what separates the frauds from the real thing.

Even legitimate offshoots who don't use the menkyo system anymore, or have a founder who doesn't hold menkyo kaiden, can trace their knowledge back to those menkyo kaiden via long term student-teacher relationships. While this is still subject to discussion (how long did the student teacher relationship exist), at least there is enough substance to argue either way.

By claiming to hold (any) menkyo kaiden, RVD is setting himself up to appear much more learned and expert than he really is (probably for marketing reasons) while at the same time associating the Bujinkan with that sort of nonsense.

(*) It is obviously fake because an authentic ryuha would have an actual name. Terms like ninjutsu, jujutsu, bojutsu, etc are the classification. Kukishin ryu, Togakure ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu etc are names. What makes it doubly suspicious is that he would hold a menkyo kaiden in something that no Japanese has ever heard of, and without being able to identify who trained him and explain why there are no Japanese people who trained that art.


----------



## Chris Parker

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> oaktree said:
> 
> 
> 
> It is also a bit odd to create a Ninjutsu ryuha without some sort of Menkyo or transmission from 1.Soke or figure head 2.Menkyo in the system.
> 
> I am in no way attacking you I am pointing out things that may draw up criticism or potential students or people may ask you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Actually while in discussion with my past Sensei..
> He had stated that "any one that has learned anything can teach... You can not rank Bujinkan however with out the requirements"... I discussed the idea of training and teaching in my area which was an hour from him. He didn't show any signs of distaste in my intentions... I had emailed him several times to update him and keep track... Im in the midst of finalizing my dues to him {this stuff aint cheap} once that is finished I plan on continuing my training to aid in my teaching...
> 
> I pondered that statement for some time... My sense is not terribly personable so it is difficult to approach him to confront all the issues with his written release of permission to teach what Ive learned from him..
> 
> So in regards to your post I appreciate your attention to my history with Ninjutsu...
> 
> Thankyou!
Click to expand...

 
Hi Jon,

I'm going to try to be gentle here, so please take this is the spirit in which it is intended. You have thanked us a few times for our attention to your school, or, in this case, your history with Ninjutsu. Can you clarify exactly what your history is? So far I have seen a few things that seem to contradict themselves, although that could easily just be the phrasing (such as being a part of the Bujinkan and studying Toshindo at the same time, as that is directly against the direction of the Bujinkan, on Hatsumi Sensei's instructions). 

More in particular, how long have you studied in each of these organisations, and what level did you achieve? My main reason for asking is your, frankly, rather odd turns of phrase, such as "practicing Nin", and refering to all students as "Uke":



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I commented here on this thread to help encourage an uke in the arts..


 
This use of Uke really doesn't ring true for someone who has trained for a fair amount of time, as it is fairly mis-used. The term refers to "reciever", as in reciever of the technique, and typically means the attacking partner. In traditional arts, however, the attacking partner (Uke, Teki, Shidachi etc) is the more senior of the two, so refering to someone like Johnny as "uke" is incorrect on a number of levels.

Now to Johnny....

Son, this will be less gentle.



ronin7411 said:


> For starters Chris I was here looking for people to train with not your advice and even though you knock me learning from home study courses. I see more Bujinkan instructors and their off-shots than any other style and lineage coming out with home study courses or "at home training material" for the style of Ninjutsu. Also since you guys knock home study courses how do you feel about what Grandmaster Robert Law and David Suzuki say in an article claiming Masaaki Hatsumi is over commercializing Ninjutsu with home study courses that he grades on the progress of students on the Bujinkan home study courses. Now should I also mention that he's ex Bujinkan himself and along with Stephen Hayes and Robert Bussey breaking away to do their own thing motivated him to do the same as well.
> 
> http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/
> 
> [URL="http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html"]http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html[/URL]


 
No, we didn't knock you for learning from home study courses, it was for not listening when you were guided to legitimate teachers in the art who were close to you, even though you wanted to open a "ninjitsu dojo" as you felt it was "lacking in your area". You went out of your way to avoid legit training in order to pursue your fantasy version. You then started learning via correspondence in a downright fraudulant system, then started attacking the Bujinkan, and claiming that we were ganging up on anyone not in the Kan's (might I point out that I'm not Kan myself here?). You got knocked for being willfully ignorant and then attacking the people who tried to help you (not that it did them any good).

Really, I can't say what I think about "Grandmaster" Robert Law and David Suzuki here... frankly, the TOS wouldn't cope with what I'd say. But for the record, Law was barely credible when he was in the Kan, he then went on a bizarre fantasy trip, came back with rather odd titles and claims (such as being a Soke in such things as Taijutsu, Kenjutsu, Hojojutsu etc.... there is no such thing as a Soke in them. You are a Soke in a traditional system, not in a skill set that is taught as part of a system, this shows a level of delusion that cannot be looked past), and David's article is fundamentally flawed as it is basing itself on claims that are flat-out incorrect. Hatsumi has never ranked anyone via video as is claimed in the beginning of the article. If you are wanting to believe any of this, there is no point discussing anything with you. 

Law is very very different to Hayes and Bussey. If you can't see this, you have no idea of anything to do with this whatsoever.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Mr. Parker... 

With all do respect,
Im not conserned with what you think in the slightest..
Im not on the earth to make bujinkan students happy..
I have nothing to hide.. Im a 6th kyu Bujinkan and I study To-Shin-Do without rank... I don't care about rank... Time is important not rank...

3 yrs Studying bujinkan 
1 yr Toshindo studies

A lot of the things you try to point out to me I am fully aware of..  Please try not to treat people like there stupid, It makes you look bad! 
I call my Buddies Uke.. You have a problem, that's your thing not mine... 

You seem to only be interested in tearing others down and slapping internet Hi fives with your buddies and students.. 

For this reason.. I will do my best to ignore you!!

Thanks!


----------



## Chris Parker

Jon, perhaps you misunderstand things here. I'm not looking to have you make me happy, I'm trying to get an idea of the level of knowledge, experience and understanding you have so I know what level to position my comments with you. I assumed, to begin with, that if you had created your own system (Ryu), that would imply a fair amount of each, however the large amount of odd comments and mistakes in your posts seemed to contradict that. A couple of years of training shows why, as well as where some of your concepts and terms come from.

Oh, and there was no implication of you being stupid, other than you reading into the post what was not present. If you constantly use terms incorrectly on your website, in your facebook page, and here, that implies that you either got it from a bad source, or your don't understand them. That's not implying stupidity, it's implying ignorance. Responding when asked about such things with "I know, already!" doesn't help, as it goes against everything else you've written before.

Ignoring me is fine, should you chose. But you are rather off in your take on my intents here, so you know.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

attention to details, I see... no problem... 

Well my .02 on your posts.
 Id quit giving away all your secrets if I were you.. you may give out to much it may anger the Bujinkan... Be careful!! 

Try bothering others now 

Thank you again for your time and efforts!!


----------



## Chris Parker

Son, I haven't given away a single percent of my secrets here... 

You, on the other hand, seem to like them. This is the third reply I've seen come through on my email notification that doesn't match up when I check the thread. For the record, what came through from you was actually:



> What??
> 
> Childish?? Yes. but, I know what level to position my comments with you.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL..
> 
> Thank you for the attention to details!


 
Now, I could ask you to point to where I've called you childish, but frankly I don't see the point. You could, however, try the same tact over at MAP, and you may see that we have actually been rather polite and gentle here. That may give you a different perspective on a number of things.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

With all do respect, Im not your Son.

You gonna stop??

Thanks


----------



## Chris Parker

Hmm, I notice that after my last reply you went back and changed your post... again.

For the record, I'm not Bujinkan. So that change was a little unnecessary. As to bothering others, I've asked a few questions, you are getting increasingly defensive in your attitude and tone. If you really like, I can stop playing nice. After all, I may take offence at you post-editing your posts to insert yourself asking me to "go bother others" before my "continuing", and you then asking "you gonna stop now?" It's a cute trick, but it's been used many times before.

I am impressed with the way you are bringing this thread towards a lockdown, that would have been nice a while back.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja

Im all new to this forum thing... I must confess this is terrible... A horrible managed place where the moderators make rude unnecessary comments to users,, Users that gang up on new guys or different ideas.. Its to bad...You constantly bash every aspect of my art and my training, You are also quite proud of this.. so I will do you a favor Im gonna ignore you so I have no clue past this point what your gonna say..

Thank you.. 

With regards,


----------



## Chris Parker

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im all new to this forum thing... I must confess this is terrible... A horrible managed place where the moderators make rude unnecessary comments to users,, Users that gang up on new guys or different ideas.. Its to bad...You constantly bash every aspect of my art and my training, You are also quite proud of this.. so I will do you a favor Im gonna ignore you so I have no clue past this point what your gonna say..
> 
> Thank you..
> 
> With regards,


 
Honestly, if this is your take on the way things have happened here, then you are in for a huge shock if you ever visit MAP or, forbid, Bullshido. You will simply be torn apart. And that is something I've actually been looking to avoid here.

There has been no bashing of your art or your training. There have been particular questions, to which you have decided to take offense, as if the questions were accusations themselves. They weren't.

However....

You have, frankly, incredibly little experience in these arts. You are claiming to have founded a Ryu without knowing what a Ryu is. You are misusing terminology. You have a name that doesn't mean what you think it does. We have seen too many "do-it-yourself" people come through here to simply grant a green light to anyone with odd claims and phrasing. So you may want to direct that anger at them.

In terms of your forum experience, it doens't appear to have been the most positive for you (little secret, it's not completely positive for anyone, no matter who they are... again, head over to MAP, there 10th Dan Bujinkan instructors get ripped apart daily it seems....), and for that I am sorry for you. However, a few things may help, should you decide you can carry on. You take offense at the simplest correction. Stop that. You respond to every question as if it was an accusation. Don't. Take a step back and look at the way you are presenting yourself honestly. Oh, and for the record, I've openly critiqued and corrected my students here as well, if something is wrong, I will point it out. You can choose to take such things on board, grow from it as a person and a practitioner, or you can ignore me and not get anything out of this place (as you'll soon be ignoring Bruno... then Supra.... Ken and Sukerkin.... JKS..... MJS..... everyone of worth, really).

It's your call, in the end.


----------



## Bruno@MT

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im all new to this forum thing... I must confess this is terrible... A horrible managed place where the moderators make rude unnecessary comments to users,, Users that gang up on new guys or different ideas.. Its to bad...You constantly bash every aspect of my art and my training, You are also quite proud of this.. so I will do you a favor Im gonna ignore you so I have no clue past this point what your gonna say..
> 
> Thank you..
> 
> With regards,



Actually, I would like to put some things into context here, in a non-offensive way:

1) Chris may be a bit verbose and inquisitive at times , but he is honestly trying to figure out what is up with the invented ryuha, and your links with dodgy ninjutsu organizations, and how much training you have to teach.

2) About the different ideas that are not tolerated: you're right, there are some ideas that we refuse to take seriously. One of the major ones is that there has to be a legit reason to call a system ninjutsu. Without digressing into the technicalities, we can say that western koga ryu is one of the ideas that we'll keep rejecting until we see proof.

2.1) supporting those groups is putting yourself in a bad light, since if you support them whilst knowing they are lying about what they do, it shows that you don't really care about the art, but more about the name.

2.2) founding a ryuha while you are still in the very beginner stages of learning the art and without a solid understanding of the art, that is going to raise eyebrows as well. you're basically saying: I am learning something, and as soon as I learn the next thing, I am going to put it under the same name and call it my own style. A ryuha typically is something complete, founded on a couple of core principles, with a solid understanding of the physical expression of those principles. It's not something you make up as you go along.

3) Most importantly, if you think you are being treated rudely now, you are mistaken. You are simply being asked questions and people don't accept vague or feel-good answers. Had you registered on MAP (martial arts planet) or budoseek or e-budo or bullshido or others, you would have encountered people (not going to name names here) who would not have been as polite as Chris and who would have hounded you off the boards already.

I am only saying this because it seems you feel you are being given a hard time here, and that is most certainly not the case.


----------



## jks9199

Folks -- 

If you don't like what someone is saying, use the ignore function.  If you can't talk nicely to each other -- don't talk to each other.  Taking personal shots and sniping at each other is against the rules.  If you really don't like it around, go play elsewhere.  

If you aren't getting the message...

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversations polite and respectful.

jks9199
Super Moderator
*


----------



## Bester

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im all new to this forum thing... I must confess this is terrible... A horrible managed place where the moderators make rude unnecessary comments to users,, Users that gang up on new guys or different ideas.. Its to bad...You constantly bash every aspect of my art and my training, You are also quite proud of this.. so I will do you a favor Im gonna ignore you so I have no clue past this point what your gonna say..
> 
> Thank you..
> 
> With regards,



If you believe you've been badly treated, report the posts. The staff here is fair, even if they might think you're an idiot (personal experience kiddo). Try MAP, Try Budoseek, try E-budo. Lots of real ninjutsu practitioners on all three. I'd avoid Bullshido. If you think Martial Talk is rough, you'll be crying within 4 posts over there. Seriously. They aren't bound to be polite.


----------



## MJS

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im all new to this forum thing... I must confess this is terrible... A horrible managed place where the moderators make rude unnecessary comments to users,, Users that gang up on new guys or different ideas.. Its to bad...You constantly bash every aspect of my art and my training, You are also quite proud of this.. so I will do you a favor Im gonna ignore you so I have no clue past this point what your gonna say..
> 
> Thank you..
> 
> With regards,


 
Let me address a few things:

1) The staff here are very fair.  I've been a member as well as a mod for a long time.  This is one of the better run forums out there.  Of course, if you're not happy, you're always free to go.

2) Keep in mind that there're many here, who have a ton of knowledge when it comes to the Japanese arts, the X-Kans, etc.  I'm not a member of any Kan, however, I do like the Japanese arts, and usually when I have a question, I'll ask it on the forum, or I'll PM someone, usually Chris Parker.  

3) Keep in mind that you're new here.  There have been numerous people here, who've been member of Hayes' group.  They've taken some heat, but for the most part, they've gotten along fine with everyone.  There've also been guys who've made up an art, and attempt to associate it with a legit Kan.  Those folks are usually short lived, mainly because they feel that what they're doing is legit, while others are telling them it isn't.  

I'm not sure what you study or what your background is, but you're more than welcome to post here, and ask questions.  Keep in mind that everyone has his/her own opinions, and like them or not, they're free to voice them.  If you find a post/member that is violating the rules, report it, using the RTM, which is the little red triangle feature in the right hand corner of each post.  It'll be reviewed by staff and if action is necessary, it'll be taken.  You're also free to use the ignore feature, found on each members profile, which will disable their posts from your view.  

In closing I'll say this...you're welcome to stay, you're welcome to leave if you wish.  I do ask that you, as well as everyone else, adhere to the rules that were agreed upon by everyone when they joined.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

I wish you the best in your training!

However, based on the experience you have provided us you would do better
to train under a qualified instructor and not teach at this point in your skill
set development.  That may be a hard pill but one that will definitely help
you acquire the skills you wish.  Also to be blunt the world does not need another made up Ninjutsu system.  Lord knows there are a ton of them already!


----------



## ronin7411

I have to ask the moderators something this is what the Ninjutsu Thread says right:

*Ninjutsu - General Discussion* Surrounded by much controversy, today's "ninjutsu" is derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. We welcome members from all Nin-po schools.

But yet unless if the practitioner trains in the Bujinkan or one of its off-shoots that they personally belong to according to Martial Talk's standards they are fakes and frauds. Even though they trained with Masaaki Hatsumi at time or another like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, Scott Damron, Jeff Miller, Robert Law, and the list goes on to include members on this thread (Hey Brain didn't you do the same thing that they did and break away from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi to develop Instinctive Response Training ?) and the schools they belong to (Chris, even though you say you're not part of the Bujinkan your school is linked to the Bujinkan and teaches their style of Ninjutsu. So what does that make you as much as you tell people here you are not part of the organization YOU'RE PART OF THE BUJINKAN BECAUSE YOU ARE STUDYING THEIR STYLE!!!!). 

I also noticed that you guys don't enforce your own rules that you try to follow like the fraud busting rule with how you say that you welcome all Ninpo schools including Koga Ryu which everyone has deemed here a fraudulent system. But as soon as they enter you guys go after them and tell them that if it isn't Bujinkan or Togakure Ryu Budo Taijitsu you're a fake and a fraud. Which you can reference this thread as well as other numerous ones too that you guys don't enforce the rules either and let people get away with things like trying to fraud bust people and even you guys admit Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to Ninjutsu is questionable as well. Then at that the same things that you guys knock your organization engages in as well and the links are there to prove it. If you guys want my opinion on this situation and the proof of your actions are there you should really change everything to say unless if you're Bujinkan and under Masaaki Hatsumi's guidance or an instructor that is currently a member of the Bujinkan you shouldn't even bother joining the site.


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## Bob Hubbard

*MartialTalk makes no Official Statement on what is, and isn't Ninjutsu, other than "derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan." in regards to this section.  

We're not home to fraud busting. We have rules regarding that, as well as an area for serious investigations should they be desired.

We don't endorse ANYONE.

If a post violates our rules, please report it, and we will look into the matter. Do not report it if it's simply a matter of you not liking what you're reading, and don't feel the need to go through a thread and point out every single issue. We review the thread, not just the post in question in order to have a more complete picture of what's going on.
*


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## Brian R. VanCise

*Really not quite the same thing at all.*  I do not teach Budo Taijutsu it is just one of the systems I still train in regularly!  I have not broken away from any system that I train in.  I am still just a student and practitioner and I always try to train with qualified practitioners in any system that I work out in regularly as well as everyone that I meet. The issue is that Ninjutsu is Japanese and it is silly for a non-Japanese with no connection to Japan to be out founding a system that is Japanese when they know next to nothing about it.  Have never been to Japan or speak the language.  Then telling other people who have trained in the Kan's that they do not know what they are talking about.  This seems to get repeated over and over and over again and again.  *Really it is sad!*  There have been many people who have trained under Hatsumi Sensei that have for whatever reason broken away and many believe it or not are still respected.  Of course there are others that have done less than scrupulous things and are not respected or not thought very highly of.  Personally, I wish everyone the very best in their training.  Everyone should find their own path once they have studied very,very hard and dilligently. (not a matter or a few months or even a few years)  *That path will be different for everyone!*


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## ronin7411

Oh yeah, check out this article you guys might find something useful since its from Japan and to let you guys know in Japan many instructors claim to be the "last ninja" and in doing are the laughing stocks in Japan. (Does that sound like somebody familiar claiming to be the last real ninja lineage in the world too :uhohh 

http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html


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## Bruno@MT

If your art does not have a verifiable (or at least plausible) link to Japan and more specifically to the arts associated with the iga or koga regions, then it is not ninjutsu. And no amount of repeating it here will make us recognize it as such. On this topic, we will most definitely NOT sing kum-bah-ya.


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## Bruno@MT

ronin7411 said:


> Oh yeah, check out this article you guys might find something useful since its from Japan and to let you guys know in Japan many instructors claim to be the "last ninja" and in doing are the laughing stocks in Japan. (Does that sound like somebody familiar claiming to be the last real ninja lineage in the world too :uhohh
> 
> http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html



Ok so there is a guy claiming to be from a family which had a line of ninjutsu. Perfectly possible if he was indeed from that region.

Fujita Seiko. It helps if you have read his biography. It only costs 10$ or so. Fujita Seiko said what he said for 2 reasons, as far as I could judge. First, his grandfather who taught him told him that he had decided to end their line of ninjutsu, but would teach the boy if he would stay out of trouble from then on, AND he told the boy that he would be the last of that line. Second, Fujita Seiko was a very strong believer in the formal rules that demand secrecy of everything within the art. A 'true' ninja would never disclose the art like Takamatsu sensei or Hatsumi sensei did. At least not in his opinion. That is a big part of why he called himself the last ninja. But read the bio if you want to have the details. Btw, he also admitted that his own training was incomplete due to the death of his grandfather before his training was finished.

Kawakami. On that the opinions are divided. Chris doesn't think he is legit. I am on the fence. There is indeed no proof that we are allowed to see. And the guy does have a serious ego imo. However, at least he is from Japan, and trained by a Japanese person. He has also been looked at by someone who is an expert in traditional arts (but not ninjutsu specifically) who said that what Kawakami does has the look and feel of a traditional transmission. So without any more information, I cannot say for certain either way, but it is not unreasonable to allow for the idea that he is teaching ninjutsu.

As for why we acknowledge the Takamatsu den arts as authentic, please read this blog post if you have never done so.
http://blog.bushinbooks.com/archives/4


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## Chris Parker

With all apologies to Bob here if I mis-represent things, there are a few things that need clarifiction.



ronin7411 said:


> I have to ask the moderators something this is what the Ninjutsu Thread says right:


 
First, a disclaimer. I am not a Moderator (as evidenced by my banner above), so anything I say here is not to be taken as an official stance from this site. However on the topic of what is Ninjutsu, and how it is classified, I may be able to offer something of a more complete opinion.



ronin7411 said:


> *Ninjutsu - General Discussion* Surrounded by much controversy, today's "ninjutsu" is derived from the traditional fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. We welcome members from all Nin-po schools.


 
You may want to re-read that a little more clearly, then. It states that we classify as Ninjutsu arts that art:* derived from the TRADITIONAL fighting arts associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan.*  What it doesn't say is that we accept anyone who's only claim to this is an ill-appropriated name as a link, with nothing even close to resembling anything like a Japanese system, traditional or otherwise, whose ideas and teachings go completely against every piece of evidence and the history of Japan.



ronin7411 said:


> But yet unless if the practitioner trains in the Bujinkan or one of its off-shoots that they personally belong to according to Martial Talk's standards they are fakes and frauds.


 
Simply because the arts passed down from Takamatsu are the only ones that have been shown to have any link historically to the aforementioned criteria. We don't class the others as "fakes and frauds" due to anything other than the claims of being linked with historical systems that they are not. It's the same, really, as someone claiming to have graduated from Harvard when they live in France, and have never even visited the campus. Does in mean that they didn't go to a college? No, but if they claim to be a Harvard graduate, that is fraudulent.



ronin7411 said:


> Even though they trained with Masaaki Hatsumi at time or another like Stephen Hayes,


 
Steve Hayes is considered legitimate as he trained for many years in a legit system. Although he puts his own spin on things, his background is legit.



ronin7411 said:


> Robert Bussey,


 
Bob was one of the early students in the art, however he became rather removed from the Takamatsuden systems fairly early on. His approach is rather different, and is based on his TKD as much as anything else. While he is a legitimate martial artist, that is very different from claiming what he presents as legitimate Ninjutsu, which he hasn't done for a very long time.



ronin7411 said:


> Scott Damron,


 
Bansenshukai Ninjutsu is based primarily in Bujinkan teachings, so no-one is calling them fakes either. Just not Bujinkan, but that's not the same thing.



ronin7411 said:


> Jeff Miller,


 
Again, Jeffery is a member of the Bujinkan. His online and home training (although he himself says that that is far from the ideal) may be frowned upon, but he's again not a fake or fraud in any way... not sure where you're pulling this list from.



ronin7411 said:


> Robert Law,


 
Ah, now Robert is the best example you've given here. Like a few others he has some legitimate background, but he basically abandoned that for a fantasy, his site shows many major issues in regard to basic understanding of Japanese martial arts in general, and Ninjutsu in particular. For more evidence that he's rather, uh, out there, check out his bio: http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/

If you think there is still a claim for legitimacy here, you really need to get out of the comic books.



ronin7411 said:


> and the list goes on to include members on this thread (Hey Brain didn't you do the same thing that they did and break away from the Bujinkan and Hatsumi to develop Instinctive Response Training ?)


 
As Brian has said, he has in no way split from the Bujinkan. What you are talking about here is that he is honest in that what he teaches is not purely Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. Not really sure what your point is.



ronin7411 said:


> and the schools they belong to (Chris, even though you say you're not part of the Bujinkan your school is linked to the Bujinkan and teaches their style of Ninjutsu. So what does that make you as much as you tell people here you are not part of the organization YOU'RE PART OF THE BUJINKAN BECAUSE YOU ARE STUDYING THEIR STYLE!!!!).


 
Okay, you don't seem to get the difference between the art and the organisation. We are not linked with the Bujinkan, as the Bujinkan is the organisation headed by Hatsumi. We teach the arts that we learnt as part of the Bujinkan, but that's different. And as we can demonstrate a history including the association as put forth in the description, we pass.

Oh, and don't try yelling at me, son, again I'm still playing nice here. That can change.



ronin7411 said:


> I also noticed that you guys don't enforce your own rules that you try to follow like the fraud busting rule with how you say that you welcome all Ninpo schools including Koga Ryu which everyone has deemed here a fraudulent system.


 
No, we do not say we accept Koga Ryu as it doesn't exist anymore. We say we accept traditional (historical) systems that originated in the Iga and Koga regions, which is rather different. Again, you may want to actually read what you post if you wish to actually contribute to discussion.



ronin7411 said:


> But as soon as they enter you guys go after them and tell them that if it isn't Bujinkan or Togakure Ryu Budo Taijitsu you're a fake and a fraud.


 
Again, if the art doesn't have the connection to the historical fighting arts of Iga and Koga in Japan, then it doesn't pass. A made-up system that follows no connection or resemblance to anything Japanese whatsoever does not pass. If you can't get past that idea, again, you are not going to have much to say that we can agree on.



ronin7411 said:


> Which you can reference this thread as well as other numerous ones too that you guys don't enforce the rules either and let people get away with things like trying to fraud bust people and even you guys admit Masaaki Hatsumi's lineage to Ninjutsu is questionable as well.


 
We don't fraudbust here in that we don't actively seek out people and say "hey, look at this guy!". But if someone comes along and says "is this real?", then we will say whether or not they are credible when it comes to Ninjutsu credentials. And if it's a system whose only connection to Ninjutsu is an ill-appropriated name, then we'll say that. 



ronin7411 said:


> Then at that the same things that you guys knock your organization engages in as well and the links are there to prove it.


 
There are members of the Bujinkan, for instance, who engage in things that the majority of the organisation don't necessarily approve of. But that is mainly due to the Bujinkan's way of leaving things up to the individual instructors themselves. For example, RVDs Home Study Course is not highly thought of, but that in no way invalidates his Bujinkan rank (that and some other things may get some to question it, but that's about it). Infighting in the Bujinkan is not the same as saying that made-up systems are made-up systems with no basis in reality.



ronin7411 said:


> If you guys want my opinion on this situation and the proof of your actions are there you should really change everything to say unless if you're Bujinkan and under Masaaki Hatsumi's guidance or an instructor that is currently a member of the Bujinkan you shouldn't even bother joining the site.


 
Your opinion? Sorry, what exactly do you think that is worth? Perhaps if you could read the statement at the beginning of this post properly you may realise how out you are here.



ronin7411 said:


> Oh yeah, check out this article you guys might find something useful since its from Japan and to let you guys know in Japan many instructors claim to be the "last ninja" and in doing are the laughing stocks in Japan. (Does that sound like somebody familiar claiming to be the last real ninja lineage in the world too :uhohh
> 
> [URL="http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html"]http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/fl20071027td.html[/URL]


 
Oh, dear. The Jinichi Kawakami claims have been examined to death. Do you really think you're bringing us anything we haven't already seen? And a tabloid-style article doesn't really cut it when it comes to actual research or anything that can be taken as actual information.


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## ronin7411

Take the Toshinobu Watanabe family for example.  Watanabe, 70, is a former chemist for Mitsubishi who recently retired to  his ancestral home of Koka in Shiga Prefecture. Koka is one of the two  legendary ninja stomping grounds, the other being Iga in nearby Mie  Prefecture. Yet, Watanabe had no inkling whatsoever that his family had  ninja ties.
    Until he unearthed old documents inside a family  warehouse, documents proving his great grandfather was a ninja adviser  to one of Japan's top daimyos. Even within the Watanabe family, the  ninja line was kept secret.


Bruno, there was no claims I copy and pasted this from the article it was proven that his ancestors were part of a ninja clan with documents and ironically the Koga. I don't know what your opinion of this is but according to this site http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/ Inoue Motokatsu was left to teach Yui Shin Kai Karate-Jutsu which Fujita Seiko co-founded and named and Iwata Manzo the famous Shito Ryu Karate practitioner also picked up maneuvers from him as well according to their Passing of the Systems tab. So lineage to Fujita Seiko is still out there but under his style of Ninjutsu which is Koga Ryu Wada Ha no he was just a tiny dust particle in the Koga clan. Also lets not forget that there were 53 families in the Koga Ryu and for some reason the general public seems to think that all 53 families of the Koga Ryu's future rested solely with Fujita Seiko. Check out this link as well there are still descendants of the Mochizuki family that are related to the Koga Ryu alive to this day so that kills the myth that all Koga Ryu clans and things related to their history vanished with Fujita Seiko's death. http://mochizuki.org/2009/07/01/koga-ryu-ninjutsu/ I also looked at the article too that you posted and to be fair it says this: 

(More later on whether these claims can be verified.) 

Given Takamatsu-senseis unimpeachable status in two very important  Ryuha (Kukishin Ryu and Gyokko Ryu), it actually is UNINTUITIVE to think  that Hatsumi-sensei would rush off to get the actual artifacts that  Takamatsu-sensei gave him verified.  Call me a bit old fashioned, but is  there really a need to do so? In the opinions of some, Yes, because  otherwise, how would you know that your teacher, this Takamatsu guy,  didnt just make up this stuff? Fair enough. I guess there is always a  _chance_ that Takamatsu-sensei did make up some of the stuff.

Id like to wrap up by answering one final question that has been put to me: Which of the scrolls are original?

 My answer: I dunno.

It is important to remember that not all historical schools  necessarily had official scrolls. Some arts are transmitted via  densho. Other arts are transmitted via oral transmission (a.k.a. _Kuden_). Applying the litmus test of one to the other is simply inappropriate.
 But any Soke is free to re-write or alter the scrolls however he sees  fit, including rearranging the techniques, replacing techniques with  other better techniques, or removing/adding techniques that the Soke  feels better captures the essence of the tradition. The Soke is charged  with ensuring that the Ryuha survives, and this may entail adding a hand  here or there.
 Also note that as with any human endeavor, the impact of  politics clearly played a role in determining why certain Ryuha survived  till today and others did not. Many of the Ryuha that have the oldest  densho-based transmission, for example Katori Shinto Ryu, received  sponsorship by powerful political or religious leaders in historical  Japan. Does that make them any better than those who did not curry  favor with certain leaders? Nope. Just different.


Does that mean that each and every school was verified by this organization? I dunno. 

So this makes it any better because in my opinion even the author says he can't verify anything neither other than Takamatsu might be telling a partial truth since not everything regarding the claims of his lineage is real or verifiable as well.


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## ronin7411

Chris read above and personally you've done it to me before in post on here and I didn't get mad at you or make any threats so grow up


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## Bruno@MT

Fujita Seiko (again, read his bio) did NOT pass down his Koga ryu Wada-ha lineage. It stopped with him. He was also Soke of 2 or 3 other lineages that he acquired when he was older. These are the ones he passed on to his senior student(s). Not his Koga ryu.

And I've said it before: I am willing to consider that perhaps there are still hidden Koga lineages in Japan (unlikely but possible). I am not even automatically rejecting the claims of Kawakami. But the idea that westerners with no knowledge of Japan, who've never been to Japan at all (or only briefly), don't speak Japanese, etc would receive a full transmission of these arts is ridiculous. The 'secret master with western successor' theme has been milked too much to be credible.

The only thing they could say is that they are doing what they think is Koga ryu without having ever been trained in it. And that would make it fake if they try to present it as the real deal.


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## Chris Parker

Johnny, essentially you have provided nothing, you realise. Fujita Seiko did not pass on the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, so that no longer exists (evidenced by his passing his weapons and scrolls to the Iga-Ueno Museum), the two families you mention (the Mochizuki and the Watanabe) both have historical claims that in the past members of their family were associated, yes. But if the art wasn't passed down (it wasn't, that's actually a big part of what they say), then there is no Koga Ninjutsu remaining from them either. When it comes to the Takamatsu claims, again you have nothing, especially nothing that hasn't been discussed before (with you, I might add).

The idea is not that all 53 families ended up with Fujita, it is that the only possible system that remained ended with him. No other systems have survived. And that's hardly surprising if you actually learn something about the reasons the arts existed, what caused them to flourish, and what caused them to subside (which would also tell you why it's impossible to create a "new" Ninjutsu system).


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## Cryozombie

Chris Parker said:


> Johnny, essentially you have provided nothing, you realise. Fujita Seiko did not pass on the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, so that no longer exists (evidenced by his passing his weapons and scrolls to the Iga-Ueno Museum), the two families you mention (the Mochizuki and the Watanabe) both have historical claims that in the past members of their family were associated, yes. But if the art wasn't passed down (it wasn't, that's actually a big part of what they say), then there is no Koga Ninjutsu remaining from them either.



This is an important distinction.  Hell, I *believe* (there was a name change in our past and I'm not 100% positive this follows the correct branch of our family) I can trace a portion of my family lineage to a Privateer vessel... but that doesn't mean I'm a freaking pirate, and I couldn't sail a boat to save my life... hell I can barely row one in a straight line.  I also have a Welder and an Artist in my family, but I can't paint OR weld... because...

*No one ever taught me how.*

Shocking, I know.  Seriously. 

As far as the other issue, about how "We welcome members from  all Nin-po schools."



> *Ninjutsu - General Discussion* Surrounded by much controversy,  today's "ninjutsu" is derived from the traditional fighting arts  associated with the Iga/Koga region of Japan. We welcome members from  all Nin-po schools.


Chris beat me to it, but yeah... If you call it Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Ninpo, or what have you, it doesn't make it so and that doesn't mean it's welcome.

MT makes no claim or endorses anyone, but I think, with the exception of a handful of the D&D Oriental Adventurers guys who toss tires, pose with 10.00 BudK dragon katanas in one hand and nachos in the other... it's pretty well accepted that an art has to at least seem to have a correct background, and here's what I mean by that.

If you are a "ninjutsu" school, but all your stances are Identical to Chinese Wing Chung, and your primary weapons skills are Okinawan Sai and Phillipino Escrima, you probably aren't learning Ninpo from the Iga/Koga regions, because believe it or not, it's fairly easy for experts (which as a disclaimer I am not) to look at and say "no, sorry that is not from that region/time period" because in most cases those skills developed to cope with certain situations that arose, i.e. types of armor and weapons being employed.  If the fighting style does not match that region/time period, it's probably a good bet that it's probably not what people are claiming it is when they slap the name on it.

Think about it like this.  NO ONE with an IQ over 40 would look at U.S. Army Infantry training, see soldiers low crawling, taking up firing positions, and moving in cover formation and say "Holy Cow, those guys are doing Ancient Samurai Martial Arts" because the tactics and situations they are training to respond to bear NO resemblance to the ones faced by the Samurai in japan.


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## Muawijhe

ronin7411,

A few questions for you:

1) Why do you wish to dispute the Takamatsuden arts so much? It seems that a) you have something against them, or b) you wish to show that because there is controversy regarding the Takamatsuden arts, and controversy to whatever it is you wish to study, that it somehow validates (incorrectly) what it is you want to study. Kind of like, "You arts are questioned. My arts are questioned. Why can't I play here, too?"

2) Why do you wish to believe in the Koga or whatever it is you so seek out? What is more appealing about it than, say, the Takamatsuden arts? What makes you want to see them as more legit than the other?

3) Why are you do you seek acceptance here? No amount of internet articles you quote, you won't change the minds of some of the people here. What is so important to you you want to hear these guys say, "You know, there is a chance some of the basement-dwelling American Koga ninja guys might be real."?

Just curious to get more insight onto your side of this argument.


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## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> So this makes it any better because in my opinion even the author says he can't verify anything neither other than Takamatsu might be telling a partial truth since not everything regarding the claims of his lineage is real or verifiable as well.


It appears you did HALF your homework; but not enough.  

Once again you should of took the advice of actually reading Fujita Seiko's biography. Yes Fujita Seiko trained with those men and taught them things. Fujita Seiko was a "martial arts expert"(he was skilled in other martial arts besides Ninjutsu).  Fujita Seiko SPECIFICIALLY said he did not pass on his Ninjutsu. He did not find anyone WORTHY in his opinion to pass it to. He also did not think Ninjutsu is necessary anymore.(Which most of it is not...)
Contrary to your belief... Ninjutsu is not all about fighting and throwing stars. Ninjutsu also had extensive curriculum in fire techniques, water techniques, stealth techniques, meteorology, entering techniques(getting into feudal castles etc). I can see exactly where Fujita Seiko was coming from with that statement. So "Ronin"  what exactly do you not understand about Fujita Seiko's statement "NINJUTSU DIES WITH ME?"

Although I do remember reading that Fujita Seiko might of passed down some shuriken throwing techniques to one of those guys he trained with. I would have to recheck, but being shown some shuriken techniques is not enough for that Karate man to claim to be teaching "Koka Ryu"
So to the extent of everyone's knowledge(which is pretty much solid), Koka Ryu Ninjutsu has died off. Which is why you have people claiming they are "Reconstructing it" (Although before they claimed they were taught it)


Everything Takamatsu might have said might not be true. But in the current state... Takamatsu has more evidence supporting his Ninjutsu ryu, and he is Japanaese.


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## Tanaka

Muawijhe said:


> ronin7411,
> 
> A few questions for you:
> 
> 1) Why do you wish to dispute the Takamatsuden arts so much? It seems that a) you have something against them, or b) you wish to show that because there is controversy regarding the Takamatsuden arts, and controversy to whatever it is you wish to study, that it somehow validates (incorrectly) what it is you want to study. Kind of like, "You arts are questioned. My arts are questioned. Why can't I play here, too?"
> 
> 2) Why do you wish to believe in the Koga or whatever it is you so seek out? What is more appealing about it than, say, the Takamatsuden arts? What makes you want to see them as more legit than the other?
> 
> 3) Why are you do you seek acceptance here? No amount of internet articles you quote, you won't change the minds of some of the people here. What is so important to you you want to hear these guys say, "You know, there is a chance some of the basement-dwelling American Koga ninja guys might be real."?
> 
> Just curious to get more insight onto your side of this argument.


It is obvious since this behavior is perpetual. 
They come in with their fantasy of Ninjutsu. Someone from Takamatsu-den arts corrects their mislead fantasies. Now since their fantasies are destroyed. They want to get back at them in revenge.


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## Muawijhe

Tanaka said:


> It is obvious since this behavior is perpetual.
> They come in with their fantasy of Ninjutsu. Someone from Takamatsu-den arts corrects their mislead fantasies. Now since their fantasies are destroyed. They want to get back at them in revenge.


 
Perhaps, and I have seen that before. But I can't think that is always the case. I have never trained with a proclaimed Koga instructor, and I'm more curious as to what is so convincing.

I wouldn't mind training with a Koga person, if I found it sincere. There is a group not far from where I live, but they seem to re-enact moments from Mortal Kombat (right down to stances and costumes) than to be sincere in any martial arts sense.

Not that the Takamatsuden arts have achieved a Flawless Victory and performed a Fatality on the Koga myths (sorry, I had to!), but they are more plausible than anything I have seen come out from anyone claiming Koga lineage.


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## ronin7411

You guys obviously can't read or have selective reading and try to distort things to make your argument look better. I already covered that Fujita Seiko didn't pass on his style of Ninjutsu to others with this statement in my post.

So lineage to Fujita Seiko is still out there but under his style of  Ninjutsu which is Koga Ryu Wada Ha no he was just a tiny dust particle  in the Koga clan.

You obviously didn't read the article that I got from a Japanese website because these statements says what I've been saying all along.

The last person with supposedly direct ninja connections, martial arts  expert Seiko Fujita, perished in an automobile accident in 1966. Yet,  there are those who doubt Fujita's claim. There are those who doubt the  claims of all the many martial arts wizards who have &#8212; since Fujita's  day &#8212; touted themselves as "the last ninja."

Also just like the articles states no one is the real last ninja in Japan its a marketing gimmick and there is countless amounts of proof that Masaaki Hatsumi or Jinchi Kawakami are not the last ninjas on the planet Earth. (Even though the Iga Ueno Museum has this as a FAQ)

http://iganinja.jp/en/faq/index.html 

Are there heirs to the art of ninjutsu today?
There are several researchers of ninjutsu history, but as for a  ninjutsu heir, Kawakami Jinichi (honorary director of the Iga Ninja  Museum) is the 21st Soke of the Koka-ryu Hanto, and is called the last  ninja.

So now onto Muawjhe's question

1) Why do you wish to dispute the Takamatsuden arts so much? It seems  that a) you have something against them, or b) you wish to show that  because there is controversy regarding the Takamatsuden arts, and  controversy to whatever it is you wish to study, that it somehow  validates (incorrectly) what it is you want to study. Kind of like, "You  arts are questioned. My arts are questioned. Why can't I play here,  too?"

Actually, I'm good friends with members of the Bujinkan and talk to them on a regular basis and they have no problems with me studying Koga Ryu so no I don't have a problem with the Bujinkan or Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. I also am not trying to prove that the arts that the Bujinkan are studying are fake even though there are people like Anthony Cummins that says they are fake along with numerous others all over the globe. (like Bullshido and is discussed here too http://www.cyberkwoon.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3788 )

2) Why do you wish to believe in the Koga or whatever it is you so seek  out? What is more appealing about it than, say, the Takamatsuden arts?  What makes you want to see them as more legit than the other?

I'm like you guys when it comes to the lineage and let me quote even some of your statements on this thread 

Tanaka just wrote:

Everything Takamatsu might have said might not be true.

Then also the article Bruno provided to us says this as well: 

http://blog.bushinbooks.com/archives/4

(More later on whether these claims can be verified.) 

Given Takamatsu-sensei&#8217;s unimpeachable status in two very important   Ryuha (Kukishin Ryu and Gyokko Ryu), it actually is UNINTUITIVE to think   that Hatsumi-sensei would rush off to get the actual artifacts that   Takamatsu-sensei gave him verified.  Call me a bit old fashioned, but is   there really a need to do so? In the opinions of some, &#8220;Yes, because   otherwise, how would you know that your teacher, this Takamatsu guy,   didn&#8217;t just make up this stuff?&#8221;&#8221; Fair enough. I guess there is always a   _chance_ that Takamatsu-sensei did make up some of the stuff&#8230;.

I&#8217;d like to wrap up by answering one final question that has been put to me: &#8220;Which of the scrolls are original?&#8221;

 My answer: I dunno.

It is important to remember that not all historical schools  necessarily  had &#8220;official scrolls.&#8221; Some arts are transmitted via  densho. Other  arts are transmitted via oral transmission (a.k.a. _Kuden_). Applying the litmus test of one to the other is simply inappropriate.
 But any Soke is free to re-write or alter the scrolls however he sees   fit, including rearranging the techniques, replacing techniques with   other &#8220;better&#8221; techniques, or removing/adding techniques that the Soke   feels better captures the essence of the tradition. The Soke is charged   with ensuring that the Ryuha survives, and this may entail adding a  hand  here or there.
 Also note that as with any human endeavor, the impact of  politics  clearly played a role in determining why certain Ryuha survived  till  today and others did not. Many of the Ryuha that have the oldest   densho-based transmission, for example Katori Shinto Ryu, received   sponsorship by powerful political or religious leaders in historical   Japan. Does that make them any &#8220;better&#8221; than those who did not curry   favor with certain leaders? Nope. Just different.


Does that mean that each and every school was verified by this organization? I dunno. 

If the author of this article can't verify everything that Takamatsu has said so what makes you guys more authentic or better than a Koga Ryu practitioner which some of them have prior training in legitimate arts as well. So after some people are calling you fakes and frauds too are you going to stop studying Ninjutsu because of that despite it having holes in its lineage or claims like Takamatsu and Hatsumi's style does too ? No, because I like the style and don't care because even the almighty and superhuman Bujinkan can't verify everything regarding their lineage as well.

Then as the old saying goes if you don't like it, don't study it, find something else that meets your taste I don't like Kyusho Jitsu or George Dillman because I don't believe touch-less knockouts work but you don't see me picketing and going after every member of their schools. Nor bashing them on the internet every time I get the chance too I still respect them as a martial artist because of their dedication to their training even though a Street Fighter style Haduoken or Goku's Kamekameha will get you killed (along with laughed at) in an actual fight.


3) Why are you do you seek acceptance here? No amount of internet  articles you quote, you won't change the minds of some of the people  here. What is so important to you you want to hear these guys say, "You  know, there is a chance some of the basement-dwelling American Koga  ninja guys might be real."?

Actually, what I'm saying is that you guys aren't God's gift to the art of Ninjutsu nor is Takamatsu or Hatsumi the Bujinkan has holes in its lineage, the Koga Ryu does as well, so does the Fuma Ryu, so does Jinchi Kawakami, and almost every other Ninjutsu style out there as well. I don't care for your guy's acceptance I was here looking for people to help train with me not a comparison or to hear how much better or legitimate my school of Ninjutsu is compared to another person's school. So in short and just like the title of the thread says unless you stay in the NW Indiana area and want to practice Ninjutsu (despite whatever lineage it is or who created it) hit me up so that I can see what's up. If not and you're only going to add more fuel to the fire that has gotten an ad for training partners to talking about how much better and legitimate my school is compared to other schools of Ninjutsu don't post anything on this thread. Go and find another thread to brag about how much better and more authenticate your school of Ninjutsu is compared to others.


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## Tanaka

ronin7411 said:


> Actually, what I'm saying is that you guys aren't God's gift to the art of Ninjutsu nor is Takamatsu or Hatsumi the Bujinkan has holes in its lineage, the Koga Ryu does as well, so does the Fuma Ryu, so does Jinchi Kawakami, and almost every other Ninjutsu style out there as well. I don't care for your guy's acceptance I was here looking for people to help train with me not a comparison or to hear how much better or legitimate my school of Ninjutsu is compared to another person's school. So in short and just like the title of the thread says unless you stay in the NW Indiana area and want to practice Ninjutsu (despite whatever lineage it is or who created it) hit me up so that I can see what's up. If not and you're only going to add more fuel to the fire that has gotten an ad for training partners to talking about how much better and legitimate my school is compared to other schools of Ninjutsu don't post anything on this thread. Go and find another thread to brag about how much better and more authenticate your school of Ninjutsu is compared to others.




I am having trouble seeing your argument here.

Are you trying to say that you're in the same boat as Takamatasu-den arts? 

On one side you have a man who SPECIFICALLY said "Ninjutsu dies with me." While Takamatsu passed his art onto Hatsumi(and others). Why do you even bring up Fujita Seiko if you KNOW he did not pass his art down? Are you trying to make some ignoratio elenchi argument?  There aren't any HOLES in modern Koka ryu lineage, since it wasn't continued. You're acting like you have some kind of lineage for Koka Ryu. Jinichi Kawakami has yet to be verified as actual holder of Koka Ryu, he is currently not even training anyone anyways. So how are you getting your Koka-ryu lineage?

Also another thing, Masaaki Hatsumi does not claim to be last Ninja. I have many Bujinkan friends, and they will laugh if you start talking about someone having Koka Ryu lineage. Not everyone in Bujinkan is a knowledgeable person about Bujinkan or Ninjutsu. My friends seem to be very knowledgeable about it. And usually they tell me that "Bujinkan is not Ninjutsu, it just contains Ninjutsu within its curriculum."  None of them claim to be Ninja.
You keep putting these other "styles" in the same boat as Bujinkan. Acting as if they only have "holes"
They have more than holes... They don't have a verifiable lineage BACK TO JAPAN.


Also Fuma Ryu is a dead Ryu.


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## ronin7411

Jinichi Kawakami does have a school going in Japan that is ran by Yasushi Kiyomoto and they have a branch in Spain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jinichi_Kawakami 

http://www.eonet.ne.jp/~bankeshinobi/ 

http://www.danieldimarzio.com/bankeshinobinoden.htm 

http://www.bankeshinobi-spain.com/ 

Now I done already know that you guys think its false but there is a Fuma Ryu school going on as well in the UK 

http://www.dojoguide.org/en/martial-art/British-Fuma-Ryu-Ninjutsu-Society.7604/ 

http://cjj2004.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/fumaryu-pdf.pdf 

Who cares about who's better or equal you like studying Togakure Ryu right ? Despite all of the negative things associated with it right ? Are you going to stop studying it even though some people will see you as a joke and should consider studying another style because you're only kidding yourself with a false sense of reality ? As long as you are happy with what you are doing who cares what people think of you it hasn't stopped anybody from doing the things they wanted in the past and it isn't going to stop them in the future.


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## Bruno@MT

Um... yes?

I mean, I have been saying that several times already, and now you are saying it like it's a new argument? Train whatever you like if you get out of it what you want. That is not even the topic of the discussion here, not how effective it is at whatever you do (MMA, self defense, etc). The argument is whether what you do is ninjutsu or not. It's a separate argument. And not one where you are going to sway people with 'feel-good' arguments.


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## Chris Parker

Johnny.

Antony Cummins has absolutely no credentials, understanding, insight, or knowledge in these arts. He looks for things to suit an agenda and refuses to acknowledge anything that doesn't support his concepts. His arguments are incredibly flawed and he cannot actually answer any question that is posed to him (in fact, his latest answer to my message about the problems with his video on Takamatsu and the Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryu was that my list of his mistakes was "too long to go through"......). He is not someone to look to for support.

Jinichi Kawakami, well, as Bruno says I'm not convinced. And having the Iga Ueno Museum support you doesn't count for that much, really, as it is primarily a tourist attraction. For the record, though, if you want to go down this path, the former Mayor of Iga Ueno, who helped set up the Museum in the first place, was a supporter of Hatsumi and his claims for Togakure Ryu. His name is Okuse Heischiro, by the way. But really, being supported by the side show attraction of a Museum after they make you an honorary curator seems a little less-than convincing of authenticity to me.

The Spanish group, headed by Juan Hombre there. Juan is well known for over-publicising and over-stating his involvement in the Ninjutsu systems. He visited Kawakami a few times over a couple of years (for a couple of weeks at a time), and started promoting himself as Kawakami's disciple. Problem is that Kawakami himself stated at the same time that although some Westerners had come and trained with him, he hadn't shown them anything of his traditions, there were no Western students, and certainly no Western teachers or dojos, and the only teacher was his student. There was also no intention to begin any other dojos. So Juan's and Kawakami's stories don't match there, and Juan is well known for such claims before.

Fuma Ryu degenerated into a bunch of pirates roaming the Sea of Japan in the 1700's, the group using their name these days is headed by Harunaka Hoshino. Find out more about him here: http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&type=&topic_id=2259&forum=16 

The entire art is so far removed from traditional Japanese movements he might as well try to convince me that Tango dancing is a legit Ninjutsu system. If you can't see this, really, that's your lack honestly.

Again, though, if you're happy with your choice, go for it. But don't kid yourself that it's anything to do with actual Japanese systems, let alone Ninjutsu. And if you're going to try to convince us to take these people seriously, have better arguments. Or better people to bring us. These ones are too easy.


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## Shawn Lindsay

Hi guys. I'm new to martial talk forum. but I thought I would drop my .02 pence worth.
I also have a membership to martial-forums and I seen this guy ronin7411 on there too. Thats where I found this link to a new ninja website
http://thirdworldninja.webs.com/
Ronin (co-owner)is teamed up with these guys
http://www.youtube.com/user/kissrdbc#p/u/130/ISzBtHzjdWM (and his lovely girlfriend(owners)

http://www.youtube.com/user/SuburbanNinja8000#p/u/26/o3G1ErFdVb8 (gyu whos idea it was)

and
http://www.youtube.com/user/o0oNaturalOneo0o#p/u/11/AU6GOK7E-cY (who is their most active member)

I'm not one to talk bad about people, so I thought I'd let them dig their own grave in their own words.


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## Jon-Bhoy

> hi guys. I'm new to martial talk forum. But i thought i would drop my .02 pence worth.
> I also have a membership to martial-forums and i seen this guy ronin7411  on there too. Thats where i found this link to a new ninja website
> http://thirdworldninja.webs.com/
> ronin (co-owner)is teamed up with these guys
> http://www.youtube.com/user/kissrdbc...30/iszbthzjdwm (and his lovely girlfriend(owners)
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/suburban...26/o3g1erfdvb8 (gyu whos idea it was)
> 
> and
> http://www.youtube.com/user/o0onatur...11/au6gok7e-cy (who is their most active member)
> 
> i'm not one to talk bad about people, so i thought i'd let them dig their own grave in their own words.



oh
my
god!


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## ronin7411

Shawn, everyone already knew that I posted ads for people to train with on other sites to see if there are other people in my area looking for people outside of their schools to do some additional training with no matter what style or school they're from. (So far only Sherdog and Craigslist is the only place I would recommend for people to post training partner ads at) Second, so what I belong to a website where there a 2 Koga Ryu and 2 Togakure Ryu practitioners saying what we known on Ninjutsu and doing comparisons between each style to advance all of our training. I learned things from Blacksword Shinobi that are associated with the Togakure Ryu and he has learned things from me regarding my training in Koga Ryu and it goes with the other members of the site as well. If you don't like the site don't sign up for it if you want to join the site or help out to make it better join and talk to Shinobi, Rin, or Suburban so that they can make it better for all Ninjutsu practitioners to share knowledge with each other.


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## Shawn Lindsay

ronin7411 said:


> Then don't say anything unless you plan on helping the situation and for starters you guys don't even know anything about me other than what I put on this forum. Do any of you stay with me ? no Do any of you know how I even look like ? no Did any of you ever come to think that I was able to get a time slot at a martial arts school because I'm training there already plus I beat a couple of the TKD instructor's Black Belts too? no Talk all of the crap you want at the least I'm putting forth the effort to make something out of myself in the martial arts by actually doing it and working with what I can.



Yes we do know 'how' you look like. You have a public profile. Learn what security settings are.
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001355498151


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## Shawn Lindsay

ronin7411 said:


> Shawn, everyone already knew that I posted ads for people to train with on other sites to see if there are other people in my area looking for people outside of their schools to do some additional training with no matter what style or school they're from. (So far only Sherdog and Craigslist is the only place I would recommend for people to post training partner ads at) Second, so what I belong to a website where there a 2 Koga Ryu and 2 Togakure Ryu practitioners saying what we known on Ninjutsu and doing comparisons between each style to advance all of our training. I learned things from Blacksword Shinobi that are associated with the Togakure Ryu and he has learned things from me regarding my training in Koga Ryu and it goes with the other members of the site as well. If you don't like the site don't sign up for it if you want to join the site or help out to make it better join and talk to Shinobi, Rin, or Suburban so that they can make it better for all Ninjutsu practitioners to share knowledge with each other.



is is possible this website is doing more harm than good? are you aware that there is a spellcheck function?
did you know the gunpowder page is going to get some dumb kid killed?
http://thirdworldninja.webs.com/kayakujutsugunpowder.htm


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## Grenadier

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

This thread is locked, pending staff review.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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