# What do you think of Jake Mace?



## TigerHeart

I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?


----------



## jobo

never heard of him have you some video and back ground info


TigerHeart said:


> I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?


----------



## Tez3

Jake Mace - Kung Fu Martial Arts School Dvd, Gardening School Seeds, Educational Consulting


----------



## Danny T

Not ever heard of him but did look up a few videos.
Based on the portions of two videos I viewed...Beware!!


----------



## Anarax

TigerHeart said:


> I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?



Yes, his videos are lies. I haven't seen all of his videos, but I've yet to see a good one. His credentials were highly questioned for a long time and were finally exposed for what he really studied. Essentially what he actually studied wasn't as authentic as he claimed. I think he claimed he came from this authentic lineage that started at Shaolin. When it was finally exposed that he didn't, he tried changing his story about what he actually said. 

I decided to look past that and look at his video myself. It might* look *like he knows what he's doing to those not trained in Chinese Martial Arts, but that's not the case. In a lot of his videos he shows many techniques, but he doesn't execute them the way they are meant to be executed. One glaring example I can remember is his wooden dummy work, he lacked structure, fluidity and purpose. There's an older video that I watched of his class sparring, it was horrible. There was no stance, technique, form nor anything that could be interpreted as combative. I've tried looking for the video again but can't find it, I'll post it if I can find it. Look at his video thumbnails on youtube, so many of them are click bait. He's a snake oil salesman that dupes people into believing he's something he's not.


----------



## CB Jones

Guy makes some good points


----------



## Tez3

Be careful, fraud busting isn't allowed on MT.


----------



## CB Jones

This one is fun too

Jake v. Master Wong


----------



## CB Jones

Tez3 said:


> Be careful, fraud busting isn't allowed on MT.



I'm just posting funny videos about the subject.  People are free to make up their own minds.


----------



## Danny T

Per MartialTalk.com Forum Rules and Procedures 

Section 1: General Information

1.10.3  No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting


----------



## CB Jones

Danny T said:


> Per MartialTalk.com Forum Rules and Procedures
> 
> Section 1: General Information
> 
> 1.10.3  No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting



But does that apply to YouTube celebrities getting paid for their channels.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

So, with Jake Mace there is a lot of controversy about his training, mostly due to his teacher being labled a charlatan with no proper lineage in any Chinese Martial Art. Jake has a similar reputation and gains a lot of hate from the CMA community, particularly when he demonstrates his Taijiquan and Baguazhang techniques. Now, it's up to you whether you believe in the controversy or not, and whether you believe he actually was trained in the styles he claims he was, or if he just learned them himself. I honestly couldn't care if his CMA is "authentic" or not, my problem with him is in his self-defence videos. In short, he advices using techniques that are very risky and require a great deal of strength and skill that your average person wouldn't have, making them very dangerous to use.


----------



## Danny T

CB Jones said:


> But does that apply to YouTube celebrities getting paid for their channels.


It applies to the individual and the specific post on Martial Talk that is posted as fraud busting.


----------



## frank raud

TigerHeart said:


> I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?


Not a CMA artist, but have not been impressed with what I've seen. Could be because I don't know what to look for, could be because it's not that impressive. don't see a point in pursuing it further.


----------



## Encho

TigerHeart said:


> I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?


Dear TigerHeart,
I have watched Jake Mace's videos and my critiques are there is a lot of external presentation.over extension, very rigid, collapse kua, shoulders not drop, his Baguazhang stepping is heavy,, not fluid and smooth I do not feel watching him gives off an internal Chinese martial art but more like watching a Karateka who may have studied some Chinese martial arts and is teaching it now. Chinese arts especially internal ones have a more rounded look, more fluidity not so overly extended and stiff. 
I am sure Jake is a nice guy a little "Whole foodish new agey" for me though.


----------



## Xue Sheng

All I will say, speaking as a CMA guy who has trained a lot of Taijiquan and Xingyiquan and a bit of Bagua too. Jake Mace's Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are horrible. As to the rest of the "controversy" do not know and not really all that interested in it.


----------



## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> I'm just posting funny videos about the subject.  People are free to make up their own minds.



It wasn't specifically aimed at you.


----------



## Ironbear24

CB Jones said:


> This one is fun too
> 
> Jake v. Master Wong



People also talk **** about master wong all the time. I think Jake is a great guy and great athlete but as I say for all these online teachers, martial isn't something you can learn on the internet.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Ironbear24 said:


> People also talk **** about master wong all the time. I think Jake is a great guy and great athlete but as I say for all these online teachers, martial isn't something you can learn on the internet.



He's clearly very dedicated and a great role model for someone who wants to get fit and healthy (he's in fantastic shape). I consider him more of a fitness guru who loves Martial Arts than a good Martial Arts instructor. My personal opinion of course.


----------



## Ironbear24

Midnight-shadow said:


> He's clearly very dedicated and a great role model for someone who wants to get fit and healthy (he's in fantastic shape). I consider him more of a fitness guru who loves Martial Arts than a good Martial Arts instructor. My personal opinion of course.



Yeah I mean I wouldn't turn down training with either one of them. They both could benefit me greatly.


----------



## CB Jones

Midnight-shadow said:


> He's clearly very dedicated and a great role model for someone who wants to get fit and healthy (he's in fantastic shape). I consider him more of a fitness guru who loves Martial Arts than a good Martial Arts instructor. My personal opinion of course.



But his application of it in fighting and self defense is questionable


----------



## Flying Crane

I don’t know him, but I’m not impressed by what I’ve seen.  He is athletic but that doesn’t automatically translate into good understanding and skills with martial arts.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

CB Jones said:


> But his application of it in fighting and self defense is questionable



Very much so. Like I said before I couldn't care less if his forms and traditional stuff are "authentic" and "proper", but his self-defence videos worry me greatly. 






Here's a classic example. Someone comes at you with a knife, and Jake Mace says you should turn your back on them and then back-kick them in the solar plexus. I don't know about you but the last thing I am going to do is turn my back on someone holding a knife in my direction. This is a regular occurrence with Jake's videos, where he choses the flashiest moves possible which more often than not are unnecessary and very risky. His actual advice regarding self-defence in terms of preventing a bad situation and de-escalation are fine, but the physical techniques he employs are going to get someone killed if they try it in real life.


----------



## Ironbear24

Midnight-shadow said:


> Very much so. Like I said before I couldn't care less if his forms and traditional stuff are "authentic" and "proper", but his self-defence videos worry me greatly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a classic example. Someone comes at you with a knife, and Jake Mace says you should turn your back on them and then back-kick them in the solar plexus. I don't know about you but the last thing I am going to do is turn my back on someone holding a knife in my direction. This is a regular occurrence with Jake's videos, where he choses the flashiest moves possible which more often than not are unnecessary and very risky. His actual advice regarding self-defence in terms of preventing a bad situation and de-escalation are fine, but the physical techniques he employs are going to get someone killed if they try it in real life.



And what if they see it coming and stop moving forward? Sure you can not throw the kick then but you are still then dealing with the guy with a knife, and you now just waisted time and put yourself in a more vulnerable position.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Ironbear24 said:


> And what if they see it coming and stop moving forward? Sure you can not throw the kick then but you are still then dealing with the guy with a knife, and you now just waisted time and put yourself in a more vulnerable position.



Well, in the scenario they were talking about, the guy with the knife is up in your face, close enough to just stab you without having to move forwards. So in that scenario, if you turn your back on them they are probably just going to stab you in the back before you can kick them. I honestly can't think of a single scenario where you would willingly turn your back on your opponent in a 1v1 confrontation.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Ironbear24 said:


> Yeah I mean I wouldn't turn down training with either one of them. They both could benefit me greatly.


I misread this as "They both could benefit from me greatly" and started cracking up.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

If I recall correctly, his training was originally in Shaolin-Do, which is not actually Chinese despite the name. Coming up through that system, he probably doesn't see the difference in body mechanics between what he is doing and actual CMA. (I have known some good martial artists who came out of Shaolin-Do. Despite having a bogus history, it's not any worse than a lot of other arts I've seen.)

I agree that he is in excellent athletic shape and well coordinated. He can probably hold is own in a fight based on those physical attributes. As far as his actual technique, it's not what I would personally recommend.


----------



## Ironbear24

Midnight-shadow said:


> Well, in the scenario they were talking about, the guy with the knife is up in your face, close enough to just stab you without having to move forwards. So in that scenario, if you turn your back on them they are probably just going to stab you in the back before you can kick them. I honestly can't think of a single scenario where you would willingly turn your back on your opponent in a 1v1 confrontation.




Well in that case it's welcome to die. A spinning back kick is not meant to be done up close, ever, unless you see your opponent backing up already which a guy with a knife is going to be doing.



kempodisciple said:


> I misread this as "They both could benefit from me greatly" and started cracking up.



Hahaha! Master wong for self defense and Jake mace for a killer workout is what I meant.


----------



## MA_Student

Personally I never bother with watching online videos. I just stick to what I'm taught. The only time I've bothered with looking online is if I'm practicing a new form at home and can't remember the next step so I check the basic angles and movements. Anything else I'll just stick to what I'm getting taught in class as that's what I'm paying for


----------



## JR 137




----------



## Midnight-shadow

Ironbear24 said:


> Well in that case it's welcome to die. A spinning back kick is not meant to be done up close, ever, unless you see your opponent backing up already which a guy with a knife is going to be doing.
> 
> 
> 
> Hahaha! Master wong for self defense and Jake mace for a killer workout is what I meant.



I would go to Jake Mace purely to see where he lives. Seriously from what I've seen of his house and gardens it looks like paradise. We can laugh at his MA techniques all day but you can't deny he's done well for himself and makes full use of what he has around him.


----------



## Martial D

TigerHeart said:


> I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?


He is probably the best martial artist to ever live. I heard he was a grandmaster in every known style, and that his punches are so fast they break the sound barrier.


----------



## Martial D

Midnight-shadow said:


> Well, in the scenario they were talking about, the guy with the knife is up in your face, close enough to just stab you without having to move forwards. So in that scenario, if you turn your back on them they are probably just going to stab you in the back before you can kick them. I honestly can't think of a single scenario where you would willingly turn your back on your opponent in a 1v1 confrontation.


I can.

Running away.


----------



## MA_Student

Googled his name and this is the first thing that came up.

18 Chambers: Fading Smoke, Broken Mirrors: An Open Letter To Jack Mace


----------



## JowGaWolf

Danny T said:


> Not ever heard of him but did look up a few videos.
> Based on the portions of two videos I viewed...Beware!!


You must be crazy.  Jake Mace knows all the martial arts lol


----------



## JowGaWolf

Xue Sheng said:


> All I will say, speaking as a CMA guy who has trained a lot of Taijiquan and Xingyiquan and a bit of Bagua too. Jake Mace's Taijiquan, Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are horrible. As to the rest of the "controversy" do not know and not really all that interested in it.


 I never knew there was a controversy about him lol.  Even after seeing his videos I never looked at it as if he was ripping someone off.  Bad martial arts doesn't exactly mean the person is ripping others off.  It just means that it's bad martial arts.


----------



## CB Jones

JowGaWolf said:


> I never knew there was a controversy about him lol.  Even after seeing his videos I never looked at it as if he was ripping someone off.  Bad martial arts doesn't exactly mean the person is ripping others off.  It just means that it's bad martial arts.



To me they are just funny to watch.  Especially the response videos to him.


----------



## Flying Crane

MA_Student said:


> Googled his name and this is the first thing that came up.
> 
> 18 Chambers: Fading Smoke, Broken Mirrors: An Open Letter To Jack Mace


Whoever wrote that needs to learn to let go a bit.


----------



## jobo

MA_Student said:


> Googled his name and this is the first thing that came up.
> 
> 18 Chambers: Fading Smoke, Broken Mirrors: An Open Letter To Jack Mace


reading that i don't understand why people are so anal about authenticity of moves, it matters nothing if someone made them up half an hour ago, or they are hundreds of years old, they either work or they dont


----------



## Danny T

JowGaWolf said:


> You must be crazy.  Jake Mace knows all the martial arts lol


Lol...I may be crazy but I still had never heard of him prior to today. I don't do much youtubing.
But I did look him up because of this post...first thing came up was Jake Rydberg aka "Jake Mace". So Mace isn't even his name. Didn't encourage me to look for much more however because of the OP's question I looked a short portion of 2 videos. Didn't need to see more. Still can't say I know anything about him and nor am I wanting to.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Midnight-shadow said:


> Very much so. Like I said before I couldn't care less if his forms and traditional stuff are "authentic" and "proper", but his self-defence videos worry me greatly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a classic example. Someone comes at you with a knife, and Jake Mace says you should turn your back on them and then back-kick them in the solar plexus. I don't know about you but the last thing I am going to do is turn my back on someone holding a knife in my direction. This is a regular occurrence with Jake's videos, where he choses the flashiest moves possible which more often than not are unnecessary and very risky. His actual advice regarding self-defence in terms of preventing a bad situation and de-escalation are fine, but the physical techniques he employs are going to get someone killed if they try it in real life.


I know the technique at 1:11 where he breaks the hand with the elbow.  I know that technique better than I know Jow Ga Kung fu and I can tell you that you would never use that technique to counter a haymaker, or a cross.  The follow up after breaking the hand is also unrealistic.  That technique is a one shot deal meaning you do the technique then reset into a defensive position because another punch may be coming on it's way.  

Andyou are right.  That knife defense is the freaking worst one I've seen. 



Danny T said:


> Didn't need to see more. Still can't say I know anything about him and nor am I wanting to.


lol.  oh you'll learn about mace.  You have already seen one video and now you'll be tempted to watch more.  Jake Mace is calling you lol.   (in my creepy ghost voice)  CAAAAALLLING YOOOOOOU.

But seriously Jake is in good enough shape where he can be better than what he is, if he had some legitimate training.  He's got a good personality and that's why people watch him.   I personally don't care about his martial arts video but I could see me handing out with him and constantly reminding that he's talking crazy when it comes to martial arts self-defense lol.     Jake is definitely unique.  If I were to make videos I would learn from his personality and how he presents his lessons.  Jake mace could probably sell fire on the sun and ice in a blizzard.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

jobo said:


> reading that i don't understand why people are so anal about authenticity of moves, it matters nothing if someone made them up half an hour ago, or they are hundreds of years old, they either work or they dont



It's rather unfortunate that the arts Jake chose to make videos on have practitioners who are very....particular about who represents their art and what the techniques should look like. If you look down the comments sections of his videos, you'll see that the ones he gets the most hate on are his Baguazhang, Taijiquan and Wing Chun demonstration videos. The communities of these arts typically are obsessed with lineages and the authenticity of their art, and take great offence to anyone practiting the arts "wrong".


----------



## oaktree

Because if you practice those arts they take a long time to learn and if some love-tard starts making things up it makes people think people who practice it also look like a love-tard.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

jobo said:


> reading that i don't understand why people are so anal about authenticity of moves, it matters nothing if someone made them up half an hour ago, or they are hundreds of years old, they either work or they dont


There's some truth in that. There is, however, the issue of making verifiably (meaning they are known to as such to the person making them) untrue claims. If I claimed to be teaching Russian, but was teaching French, I'm lying. If someone claims to teach Kung Fu but aren't (and know it), they are lying. Now, if they explain they call it "Kung Fu" because the moves are derived from Kung Fu, and they make that clear, then I have no problem with them using that term - though some would, and I can't really say they are wrong to be so.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

JowGaWolf said:


> But seriously Jake is in good enough shape where he can be better than what he is, if he had some legitimate training.  He's got a good personality and that's why people watch him.   I personally don't care about his martial arts video but I could see me handing out with him and constantly reminding that he's talking crazy when it comes to martial arts self-defense lol.     Jake is definitely unique.  If I were to make videos I would learn from his personality and how he presents his lessons.  Jake mace could probably sell fire on the sun and ice in a blizzard.



You know the crazy thing is that Jake is in such good shape he could probably hold his own in a fight despite being a "fake" Martial Artist. You are right that a lot of people watch him more for his personality than his fighting skills. He is a true inspiration and people respect that, which is why his self-defence videos are so worrying to me. If he just did fitness and forms videos I would have absolutely no problem with him and would probably be subbed to him, but the techniques he's telling people to use for self-defence are going to get them hurt in a real fight. Now, you could argue that the techniques he uses could work for him in a fight, but 90% of the population aren't as fit or as flexible as him and therefore couldn't do the things he could.


----------



## Flying Crane

Midnight-shadow said:


> You know the crazy thing is that Jake is in such good shape he could probably hold his own in a fight despite being a "fake" Martial Artist. You are right that a lot of people watch him more for his personality than his fighting skills. He is a true inspiration and people respect that, which is why his self-defence videos are so worrying to me. If he just did fitness and forms videos I would have absolutely no problem with him and would probably be subbed to him, but the techniques he's telling people to use for self-defence are going to get them hurt in a real fight. Now, you could argue that the techniques he uses could work for him in a fight, but 90% of the population aren't as fit or as flexible as him and therefore couldn't do the things he could.


Why would you think he could do forms videos?  If his Kung Fu is not up to snuff, then by definition his forms are no good.

Forms are not for performance.  They are a training tool that help develop the skills and are common and standard method of training in most, if not all, Chinese martial arts.  If his skills are no good then I have no reason to believe that he could teach anyone how to use forms properly, because obviously he hasn’t learned it properly himself.


----------



## jobo

Midnight-shadow said:


> It's rather unfortunate that the arts Jake chose to make videos on have practitioners who are very....particular about who represents their art and what the techniques should look like. If you look down the comments sections of his videos, you'll see that the ones he gets the most hate on are his Baguazhang, Taijiquan and Wing Chun demonstration videos. The communities of these arts typically are obsessed with lineages and the authenticity of their art, and take great offence to anyone practiting the arts "wrong".


that's says a lit more about them than it does about the,effectiveness of Jake mace,

for instance back in the mid 80s a had a much modified triumph Bonneville, it was a  much  better machine than triumph actually sold, a visit to the triumph owners club, had them in fits of pique as it wasn't original, no really they became insensed, that i had taken a hack saw and a welder to to a historic machine and made it better. It's like i had stolen from them or punched their mother.

that seems to be the same condition that wing chimneys are suffering from, an obsession that old is best and change is bad, even if the,change is for the good


----------



## Tez3

jobo said:


> that seems to be the same condition that wing chimneys are suffering from, an obsession that old is best and change is bad, even if the,change is for the good



I think a good chimney sweep would sort any problems out.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Why would you think he could do forms videos?  If his Kung Fu is not up to snuff, then by definition his forms are no good.
> 
> Forms are not for performance.  They are a training tool that help develop the skills and are common and standard method of training in most, if not all, Chinese martial arts.  If his skills are no good then I have no reason to believe that he could teach anyone how to use forms properly, because obviously he hasn’t learned it properly himself.


If he taught them from a fitness standpoint, he'd be fine.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> If he taught them from a fitness standpoint, he'd be fine.


Which is exactly NOT what forms are meant for.

Fitness is a side benefit from training, and lengthy and demanding forms can help.  But first and formost, forms are for developing your fundamentals and techniques and understanding of the system.

If they are taught from a standpoint of fitness, then it exacerbates what everyone here is grumpy about: it is junk teaching.  If forms are being taught as performance, or as fitness, then it is junk teaching, from the standpoint of wanting authentic and combat-effective Chinese martial arts.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Flying Crane said:


> Why would you think he could do forms videos?  If his Kung Fu is not up to snuff, then by definition his forms are no good.
> 
> Forms are not for performance.  They are a training tool that help develop the skills and are common and standard method of training in most, if not all, Chinese martial arts.  If his skills are no good then I have no reason to believe that he could teach anyone how to use forms properly, because obviously he hasn’t learned it properly himself.



I see where you are coming from, but in the end him doing the forms "wrong" isn't necessarily going to put anyone in danger. However, when he says in his self-defence videos "use this technique to win any street fight" and then does a spinning back kick against someone brandishing a knife at them, that could have very dire consequences if someone actually did that in a live situation. 



jobo said:


> that's says a lit more about them than it does about the,effectiveness of Jake mace,
> 
> for instance back in the mid 80s a had a much modified triumph Bonneville, it was a  much  better machine than triumph actually sold, a visit to the triumph owners club, had them in fits of pique as it wasn't original, no really they became insensed, that i had taken a hack saw and a welder to to a historic machine and made it better. It's like i had stolen from them or punched their mother.
> 
> that seems to be the same condition that wing chimneys are suffering from, an obsession that old is best and change is bad, even if the,change is for the good



I agree. Maybe it's because I don't practice any of the arts he makes videos on so I can't understand the atrocities he is making in butchering the forms and techniques. Now, we could argue to the ends of the Earth whether his interpretation is more effective than the traditional ways, but at the end of the day I see nothing inherently wrong with him posting videos of himself doing forms.


----------



## Flying Crane

Midnight-shadow said:


> I see where you are coming from, but in the end him doing the forms "wrong" isn't necessarily going to put anyone in danger. However, when he says in his self-defence videos "use this technique to win any street fight" and then does a spinning back kick against someone brandishing a knife at them, that could have very dire consequences if someone actually did that in a live situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Maybe it's because I don't practice any of the arts he makes videos on so I can't understand the atrocities he is making in butchering the forms and techniques. Now, we could argue to the ends of the Earth whether his interpretation is more effective than the traditional ways, but at the end of the day I see nothing inherently wrong with him posting videos of himself doing forms.


See my previous post, #50.


----------



## Flying Crane

Midnight-shadow said:


> I see where you are coming from, but in the end him doing the forms "wrong" isn't necessarily going to put anyone in danger. However, when he says in his self-defence videos "use this technique to win any street fight" and then does a spinning back kick against someone brandishing a knife at them, that could have very dire consequences if someone actually did that in a live situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Maybe it's because I don't practice any of the arts he makes videos on so I can't understand the atrocities he is making in butchering the forms and techniques. Now, we could argue to the ends of the Earth whether his interpretation is more effective than the traditional ways, but at the end of the day I see nothing inherently wrong with him posting videos of himself doing forms.


I see you train Fujian crane.  Would you say it is ok to teach the forms of Fujian crane as a form of sloppy cardio-kickboxing for example, in a gym?

Would you feel that is an appropriate way to use and teach the forms?


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Flying Crane said:


> I see you train Fujian crane.  Would you say it is ok to teach the forms of Fujian crane as a form of sloppy cardio-kickboxing for example, in a gym?
> 
> Would you feel that is an appropriate way to use and teach the forms?



If people want to use the forms in that manner, who am I to say they can't? As I said before, him doing the forms "wrong" isn't going to put anyone in danger, unlike what he does with his self-defence videos telling people to use ridiculous techniques in inappropriate situations that could get them seriously hurt.


----------



## Flying Crane

Midnight-shadow said:


> If people want to use the forms in that manner, who am I to say they can't? As I said before, him doing the forms "wrong" isn't going to put anyone in danger, unlike what he does with his self-defence videos telling people to use ridiculous techniques in inappropriate situations that could get them seriously hurt.


Of course people can do what they want, we can’t stop them.  But forms are understood to be part of legitimate Kung Fu training.  Teaching forms poorly can also make people think they have learned something that they have not.  It can be just as deceptive.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Midnight-shadow said:


> He is a true inspiration and people respect that, which is why his self-defence videos are so worrying to me


 You make a valid point.  I know I have already told my students not to follow his applications for self-defense purposes because of the reason you stated.  It's only a matter of time before they watch a few of his videos.


----------



## jobo

Midnight-shadow said:


> I see where you are coming from, but in the end him doing the forms "wrong" isn't necessarily going to put anyone in danger. However, when he says in his self-defence videos "use this technique to win any street fight" and then does a spinning back kick against someone brandishing a knife at them, that could have very dire consequences if someone actually did that in a live situation.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree. Maybe it's because I don't practice any of the arts he makes videos on so I can't understand the atrocities he is making in butchering the forms and techniques. Now, we could argue to the ends of the Earth whether his interpretation is more effective than the traditional ways, but at the end of the day I see nothing inherently wrong with him posting videos of himself doing forms.


but he looks more,effective than the average wing,chimney does,,if he has modified the techniques, then it makes,sense he has modified the forms, to suit.

the complainers,don't own the name or how the forms are done


----------



## TigerHeart

Well, I actually believe every word Jake said until I feel something fishy after others comment about him.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Midnight-shadow said:


> As I said before, him doing the forms "wrong" isn't going to put anyone in danger,



I have never studied Wing Chun, but I disagree with this statement. Forms (as we use them and teach them) are an important teaching tool. Done properly, they help train specific movements as well as aid in the development of power, balance, timing...
Doing them improperly will not only adversely affect learning the movements and techniques, but can be the direct cause of injury. Just as one example, an improperly thrown punch or kick can hyperextend joints. Ouch.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Flying Crane said:


> Which is exactly NOT what forms are meant for.
> 
> Fitness is a side benefit from training, and lengthy and demanding forms can help.  But first and formost, forms are for developing your fundamentals and techniques and understanding of the system.
> 
> If they are taught from a standpoint of fitness, then it exacerbates what everyone here is grumpy about: it is junk teaching.  If forms are being taught as performance, or as fitness, then it is junk teaching, from the standpoint of wanting authentic and combat-effective Chinese martial arts.


Just because they aren't meant for that, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful for it, if separated from the martial application. Tai chi forms are often used just for fitness. There are some forms that were developed specifically for muscular development; a friend who was trained in something (some form of Karate, I think) showed me one of them.


----------



## TigerHeart

A least Billy Blanks’s Tae Bo is real.


----------



## Tarrycat

Dirty Dog said:


> I have never studied Wing Chun, but I disagree with this statement. Forms (as we use them and teach them) are an important teaching tool. Done properly, they help train specific movements as well as aid in the development of power, balance, timing...
> Doing them improperly will not only adversely affect learning the movements and techniques, but can be the direct cause of injury. Just as one example, an improperly thrown punch or kick can hyperextend joints. Ouch.



I agree 100%.

Extending too much leaves the muscles, bones, & joints vulnerable to any injuries.

Every art should be strict on forms as to avoid the risk of injury. We're just as strict regarding it.

Some will agree, others will disagree, I'm fine with that.


----------



## Danny T

TigerHeart said:


> A least Billy Blanks’s Tae Bo is real.


It is real...a real Fitness system. Specifically designed as a fitness system combining dance, some martial arts type techniques, and some boxing techniques. It is not intended for fighting nor was it meant for any combat or self defense. It's only intent in design is to increase fitness through movement. The high-intensity choreography workout is intended to increase cardiovascular fitness, strength, muscular endurance and flexibility through specific movements.
So yes Tae Bo is real.


----------



## DanT

gpseymour said:


> Just because they aren't meant for that, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful for it, if separated from the martial application. Tai chi forms are often used just for fitness. There are some forms that were developed specifically for muscular development; a friend who was trained in something (some form of Karate, I think) showed me one of them.


Problem is that he's trying to pass them off as legitimate traditional guoshu (designed to maim and injure other humans), not as only fitness. Herein lies the issue.


----------



## JR 137

Danny T said:


> It is real...a real Fitness system. Specifically designed as a fitness system combining dance, some martial arts type techniques, and some boxing techniques. It is not intended for fighting nor was it meant for any combat or self defense. It's only intent in design is to increase fitness through movement. The high-intensity choreography workout is intended to increase cardiovascular fitness, strength, muscular endurance and flexibility through specific movements.
> So yes Tae Bo is real.


I agree but...
I remember some of his students like Dara Torres say she was “learning self defense moves” during the infomercials back in the day.

But Dara Torres can say anything she wants as far as I’m concerned


----------



## jobo

Danny T said:


> It is real...a real Fitness system. Specifically designed as a fitness system combining dance, some martial arts type techniques, and some boxing techniques. It is not intended for fighting nor was it meant for any combat or self defense. It's only intent in design is to increase fitness through movement. The high-intensity choreography workout is intended to increase cardiovascular fitness, strength, muscular endurance and flexibility through specific movements.
> So yes Tae Bo is real.



but that wouldn't make it any more or LESS effective than the many real fighting styles that are done with out real fighting, which seems to be a fair old few, from your description it would at least give you the physical fitness for self defence, that some other arts would not, at least as commonly practised


----------



## drop bear

Danny T said:


> It is real...a real Fitness system. Specifically designed as a fitness system combining dance, some martial arts type techniques, and some boxing techniques. It is not intended for fighting nor was it meant for any combat or self defense. It's only intent in design is to increase fitness through movement. The high-intensity choreography workout is intended to increase cardiovascular fitness, strength, muscular endurance and flexibility through specific movements.
> So yes Tae Bo is real.



It think it was designed for self defence. If you read the promotional material. Because anything can be for self defence if nobody ever has to use it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DanT said:


> Problem is that he's trying to pass them off as legitimate traditional guoshu (designed to maim and injure other humans), not as only fitness. Herein lies the issue.


That was my point. If he just used them for fitness (saying they are based on the appropriate MA, similar to Tae Bo), rather than asserting they are the fighting forms from those arts, he'd be fine.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Dirty Dog said:


> I have never studied Wing Chun, but I disagree with this statement. Forms (as we use them and teach them) are an important teaching tool. Done properly, they help train specific movements as well as aid in the development of power, balance, timing...
> Doing them improperly will not only adversely affect learning the movements and techniques, but can be the direct cause of injury. Just as one example, an improperly thrown punch or kick can hyperextend joints. Ouch.



I definitely see where you are coming from, but all of that is not nearly as bad as what he teaches in his self-defence videos. Just as an example you are comparing a hyperextended joint to getting stabbed in the back while trying to do a spinning back kick. Also looking at the youtube comments for Jake's videos, the hate doesn't seem to stem from any sort of practical stand-point but purely because it is different and not "authentic".


----------



## DanT

gpseymour said:


> That was my point. If he just used them for fitness (saying they are based on the appropriate MA, similar to Tae Bo), rather than asserting they are the fighting forms from those arts, he'd be fine.


Agreed


----------



## Xue Sheng

Danny T said:


> It is real...a real Fitness system. Specifically designed as a fitness system combining dance, some martial arts type techniques, and some boxing techniques. It is not intended for fighting nor was it meant for any combat or self defense. It's only intent in design is to increase fitness through movement. The high-intensity choreography workout is intended to increase cardiovascular fitness, strength, muscular endurance and flexibility through specific movements.
> So yes Tae Bo is real.



Correct Tae Bo is not for fighting, but Billy Blanks himself is for real when you are talking martial arts


----------



## Danny T

drop bear said:


> It think it was designed for self defence. If you read the promotional material. Because anything can be for self defence if nobody ever has to use it.



Per Billy Blanks:
“Tae Bo is based on Boxing, Martial Arts, Calisthenics, and Dance all combined into one form of cardio exercise that you need to get into good shape. If you have never heard of or done Tae Bo before I just want to introduce myself to you and to say I am the one who created this form of cardio kickboxing.”

After touting his karate accomplishments he talks of being in his basement just doing some punching and kicking to the theme song for the movie Rocky and that with-in two minutes he, the karate champion of the world, was tired.

“So I said, you know what? I’m going to put all these movements into a cardio fitness exercise system that has really changed me from the inside out.

So I created TAEBO
*T*otal
*A*wareness (of)
*E*xcellent
*B*ody
*O*bdience

This is what TAEBO represents. TAEBO is a fully body cardio fitness system.”

Don't know what anyone else has stated but this is from Mr. Blanks himself.


----------



## JR 137

Xue Sheng said:


> Correct Tae Bo is not for fighting, but Billy Blanks himself is for real when you are talking martial arts


I don’t know much about him aside from his infomercials back in the day, but if @Buka vouches for him, he’s got to be legit


----------



## Danny T

Billy Blanks and his martial skills are for real.


----------



## Finlay

I have a few problems with Jake Mace

- the titles of his video's ..'wow' 'incredible' 'amazing skill' then what he shows isn't that much. 

- his self defence is ridiculous

- his style is fake, a lot of things wrong with his bagua. However, he speaks with such authority on the subject. An example of this would be his "how a champion trains kata" video where he does a little bit of a bagua form (taolu not kata) does some chin ups and then does a little more of the form. Thinking that the 8 changes can be broken up like this. 

Those would be the main ones I guess. He has some physical abilities high kicks and so on and then seems to think he can superimpose them on to different styles


----------



## JowGaWolf

Xue Sheng said:


> Correct Tae Bo is not for fighting, but Billy Blanks himself is for real when you are talking martial arts


Billy Blanks never promoted Tae Bo as a self defense art.  He was straight forward with it.


Danny T said:


> Per Billy Blanks:
> “Tae Bo is based on Boxing, Martial Arts, Calisthenics, and Dance all combined into one form of cardio exercise that you need to get into good shape. If you have never heard of or done Tae Bo before I just want to introduce myself to you and to say I am the one who created this form of cardio kickboxing.”
> 
> After touting his karate accomplishments he talks of being in his basement just doing some punching and kicking to the theme song for the movie Rocky and that with-in two minutes he, the karate champion of the world, was tired.
> 
> “So I said, you know what? I’m going to put all these movements into a cardio fitness exercise system that has really changed me from the inside out.
> 
> So I created TAEBO
> *T*otal
> *A*wareness (of)
> *E*xcellent
> *B*ody
> *O*bdience
> 
> This is what TAEBO represents. TAEBO is a fully body cardio fitness system.”
> 
> Don't know what anyone else has stated but this is from Mr. Blanks himself.


Billy Blanks never promoted Taebo as a self defense system.  Taebo has always been about fitness and nothing more.  People had fun doing his classes and following his DVDs and got into shape.


----------



## JowGaWolf

JR 137 said:


> I don’t know much about him aside from his infomercials back in the day, but if @Buka vouches for him, he’s got to be legit


Billy blanks competed back in the day. Not his best showing





Taebo / Boxercise fighter





Billy working real martial arts techniques


----------



## Danny T

JowGaWolf said:


> Billy Blanks never promoted Tae Bo as a self defense art.  He was straight forward with it.
> 
> Billy Blanks never promoted Taebo as a self defense system.  Taebo has always been about fitness and nothing more.


Agreed...that was my point. That he stated it was a fitness system.


----------



## Tez3

Finlay said:


> However, he speaks with such authority on the subject.



Is this because he genuinely believes what he's saying is true or because he's trying hard to con people? When people call him a liar and fake etc this is an important question to ask, someone's teaching may be very poor, the techniques may not work but it's not always because the instructor is fake but that they themselves have been poorly taught. I've never heard of Jake Mace and know very little about what he's teaching but while criticising him I would be careful about calling him a fake. Fake and incompetent aren't the same thing.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Tez3 said:


> Is this because he genuinely believes what he's saying is true or because he's trying hard to con people? When people call him a liar and fake etc this is an important question to ask, someone's teaching may be very poor, the techniques may not work but it's not always because the instructor is fake but that they themselves have been poorly taught. I've never heard of Jake Mace and know very little about what he's teaching but while criticising him I would be careful about calling him a fake. Fake and incompetent aren't the same thing.



This is the interesting thing. Go back a couple of years and I would say he believed he was the bees knees of CMA. However more recently he's been bringing in other people to effectively teach him in his videos. Here are a couple of examples of this:











This shows that he is aware that he needs more training from others and is striving to improve. You'll also notice that he's doing a lot more workout and stretching videos with an emphasis on "this is what I do, not necessarily what you should do" whereas before he was very much "you should do this otherwise you are not a true Martial Artist". Now, for all his failings I do think that Jake genuinely believes in everything he does. I would definitely lean more towards incompetence than fraud in his case, but it's nice to see he is slowly trying to improve this.


----------



## CB Jones

Midnight-shadow said:


> This shows that he is aware that he needs more training from others and is striving to improve. You'll



No this is a  common practice with YouTuber's to increase their viewership.

You are sharing subscribers by promoting each other on your channels.


And the video is scary......he teaches rape prevention classes to women.......what does he know about rape prevention?

Chances are none of those techniques are gonna stop a rape.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> Is this because he genuinely believes what he's saying is true or because he's trying hard to con people? When people call him a liar and fake etc this is an important question to ask, someone's teaching may be very poor, the techniques may not work but it's not always because the instructor is fake but that they themselves have been poorly taught. I've never heard of Jake Mace and know very little about what he's teaching but while criticising him I would be careful about calling him a fake. Fake and incompetent aren't the same thing.


That's a good thing to consider when trying to determine if someone is running the con or if someone is just lacking the knowledge.


----------



## JowGaWolf

CB Jones said:


> No this is a  common practice with YouTuber's to increase their viewership.
> 
> You are sharing subscribers by promoting each other on your channels.
> 
> 
> And the video is scary......he teaches rape prevention classes to women.......what does he know about rape prevention?
> 
> Chances are none of those techniques are gonna stop a rape.


He's where a lot of martial art schools and instructors want to be in terms of visibility.  Literally it's him and Master Wong that get much of the youtube spotlight.


----------



## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> Just because they aren't meant for that, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be useful for it, if separated from the martial application. Tai chi forms are often used just for fitness. There are some forms that were developed specifically for muscular development; a friend who was trained in something (some form of Karate, I think) showed me one of them.


And this is why people grumble over what people like Jake Mace do.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

CB Jones said:


> No this is a  common practice with YouTuber's to increase their viewership.
> 
> You are sharing subscribers by promoting each other on your channels.
> 
> 
> And the video is scary......he teaches rape prevention classes to women.......what does he know about rape prevention?
> 
> Chances are none of those techniques are gonna stop a rape.



I know it's common practice to do collabs, but in his earlier collabs the emphasis was very much on Jake showing off his skills to the other person, whereas in the videos I linked in my last post, the emphasis is on Jake learning from his collab partner. At least, that is the impression I got from them.


----------



## drop bear

Danny T said:


> Per Billy Blanks:
> “Tae Bo is based on Boxing, Martial Arts, Calisthenics, and Dance all combined into one form of cardio exercise that you need to get into good shape. If you have never heard of or done Tae Bo before I just want to introduce myself to you and to say I am the one who created this form of cardio kickboxing.”
> 
> After touting his karate accomplishments he talks of being in his basement just doing some punching and kicking to the theme song for the movie Rocky and that with-in two minutes he, the karate champion of the world, was tired.
> 
> “So I said, you know what? I’m going to put all these movements into a cardio fitness exercise system that has really changed me from the inside out.
> 
> So I created TAEBO
> *T*otal
> *A*wareness (of)
> *E*xcellent
> *B*ody
> *O*bdience
> 
> This is what TAEBO represents. TAEBO is a fully body cardio fitness system.”
> 
> Don't know what anyone else has stated but this is from Mr. Blanks himself.



Yeah I had a look and couldn't find self defence so fair enough.


----------



## CB Jones

Midnight-shadow said:


> I know it's common practice to do collabs, but in his earlier collabs the emphasis was very much on Jake showing off his skills to the other person, whereas in the videos I linked in my last post, the emphasis is on Jake learning from his collab partner. At least, that is the impression I got from them.



I don't get that impression at all.

The impression I get is meet so and so....They are gonna show you a couple techniques and I'm going to show a couple techniques while we get Youtube's search engine to link our names so that we are suggested to each others subscribers or viewers.


----------



## thomashoard1909

he's a fake.

just look at his basic's, he doesn't have decent structure and from the looks of it any knowledge of power generation.

To be brutally honest... I think people like him are the reason why the opinion of kung fu has gone down over the years.


----------



## Midnight-shadow

CB Jones said:


> I don't get that impression at all.
> 
> The impression I get is meet so and so....They are gonna show you a couple techniques and I'm going to show a couple techniques while we get Youtube's search engine to link our names so that we are suggested to each others subscribers or viewers.



Exactly, it was a mutual exchanging of techniques, which is completely different in particular to the Baguazhang video I linked before which is much more 1-sided with Jake learning from his collab partner instead of just showing off a bunch of techniques himself. Now, is it any better from a technical standpoint? I don't know, as I don't practice Baguazhang, I just found it interesting that this video had a very different format which put Jake into the role of student a lot more rather than giving off the illusion that he knows everything already.


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> I know the technique at 1:11 where he breaks the hand with the elbow. I know that technique better than I know Jow Ga Kung fu and I can tell you that you would never use that technique to counter a haymaker, or a cross. The follow up after breaking the hand is also unrealistic. That technique is a one shot deal meaning you do the technique then reset into a defensive position because another punch may be coming on it's way.



Why wouldn't use that destruction(what we call it in Kali) to counter a cross? You parry it with the left hand then use the elbow as the destruction, his elbow is also up like that to shield him from any strikes from the left arm. I agree it's not the appropriate technique for a haymaker, but there's noting wrong using it against a cross. I also agree his follow up with the chop is most likely not going to work either.


----------



## Tez3

thomashoard1909 said:


> he's a fake.
> 
> just look at his basic's, he doesn't have decent structure and from the looks of it any knowledge of power generation.
> 
> To be brutally honest... I think people like him are the reason why the opinion of kung fu has gone down over the years.



That doesn't make him a fake, it may make him incompetent but not a fake. As few of us have heard of him I doubt that Kung Fu is affected that much by him. I also doubt the opinion of Kung Fu has gone down either, people tend not to know much about it unless they are practising it. Most people see it ( or something approximate) being used in films and that's the extent of their knowledge.
Perhaps you could introduce yourself and tell us why you are an expert?


----------



## Tames D

oaktree said:


> Because if you practice those arts they take a long time to learn and if some love-tard starts making things up it makes people think people who practice it also look like a love-tard.


July 31,2017 oaktree posted:
"I remember ten years ago martial talk use to be a great place to talk lots of great discussions, great members too.
Then Bob sold it and it started to down grade at least to me. Maybe I have grown out of forums or to tired to answer the same rehash questions or bored to the what if battles of who's martial art is the real deadly.

Looking at martial talk now, I piety it spending all those times arguing, discussing moot points instead of actually engaging in the real world.

Anyway I just wanted to say I have moved on there is no reason to log in anymore and I suggest you do the same."

*LOL. Welcome back?*


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> Why wouldn't use that destruction(what we call it in Kali) to counter a cross?


 Because of the angle that crosses usually come in when thrown.  If the person throws a linear cross then you'll have a chance, but if that cross comes in at an angle (as shown in the video) then the chance for a successful counter with that technique is slim.  It's just too much distance to cover with that technique when used against a cross, which is why he has that awkward lean in the video when he tries to counter with the technique.  The other issue is that crosses are usually the follow up punch and not the lead punch.  The problem with the demo is that it's slow which creates assumptions about when a technique can be done. 

The safer application of that technique is to use it against a jab or a linear punch. People usually jab carelessly, often times they use it as a range finder which means they aren't really trying to hit you in the face with full force. Jabs you can easily parry, even when thrown at full force in comparison to crosses.  Parrying a jab is text book beginner technique for martial arts.

Here are examples of crosses and you'll see the angle that I'm talking about.  Also notice that the cross is the second punch.  The one that I really want you to focus on is the one at 4:45 because it best represents what Jake was doing and how his partner was replying.  I think this is the real danger of crosses.  At the moment the of trying to counter the incoming cross, he would have just redirected the cross from landing on one side of his face, only to have it land on the other side.  If your opponent sees you move then he'll just change the angle of his cross, which was what happened at 4:45. He thought the cross was coming down the middle but it didn't.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Tez3 said:


> I doubt that Kung Fu is affected that much by him.


It's not.  Most people who I know that train kung fu with an instructor get a good laugh off of Jake Mace. The only ones that would be affected are those who try to only learn kung fu through youtube videos and decide to pick him as the guy to study from.
I think people who have been punched hard before are safe from Jake. Stuff like this doesn't even register for me, just from me being punched as a kid. Kids don't attack the way.  As an adult, adults don't attack this way.  As a martial arts student, other students don't attack like that.  The only way I could possible see this as realistic for me is if I have never been punched or in a fight.  Even in slow motion it looks like he's struggling to pull it off.


----------



## Tez3

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not.  Most people who I know that train kung fu with an instructor get a good laugh off of Jake Mace. The only ones that would be affected are those who try to only learn kung fu through youtube videos and decide to pick him as the guy to study from.
> I think people who have been punched hard before are safe from Jake. Stuff like this doesn't even register for me, just from me being punched as a kid. Kids don't attack the way.  As an adult, adults don't attack this way.  As a martial arts student, other students don't attack like that.  The only way I could possible see this as realistic for me is if I have never been punched or in a fight.  Even in slow motion it looks like he's struggling to pull it off.



Pointing out why he's wrong as you do is fine as I said, it's incompetence perhaps he's deluding himself ( which doesn't make him a liar if he believes his stuff works) but I don't get why all the woes of the world are placed at his feet by some. All styles have their problems with instructors who aren't as good as they think they are, still doesn't make them fakes or frauds just not very good instructors. Perhaps he's the victim of a not very good instructor himself, these things do tend to perpetuate themselves.


----------



## CB Jones

Tez3 said:


> Pointing out why he's wrong as you do is fine as I said, it's incompetence perhaps he's deluding himself ( which doesn't make him a liar if he believes his stuff works) but I don't get why all the woes of the world are placed at his feet by some. All styles have their problems with instructors who aren't as good as they think they are, still doesn't make them fakes or frauds just not very good instructors. Perhaps he's the victim of a not very good instructor himself, these things do tend to perpetuate themselves.



The only thing that worries me is that he puts on Anti-Rape and self defense seminars for women....which worries me because he is a very good salesman and can make people believe he knows what he is talking about.


----------



## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> The only thing that worries me is that he puts on Anti-Rape and self defense seminars for women....which worries me because he is a very good salesman and can make people believe he knows what he is talking about.



He's not alone though, most self defence for women is taught by men and from a man's perspective. To be honest his may well be as good any anyone else's. Shakesville: Five Reasons Why "Teach Women Self-Defense" Isn't a Comprehensive Solution to Rape


----------



## Xue Sheng

There is a post somewhere here on MT, that I am not going to look for, that was made by Clfsean. He posted the history of Jake Mace and the training he received and why he separated from that group. I was part of that thread, but I cannot remember the title. So if anyone is that interested it is on here somewhere.


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> Pointing out why he's wrong as you do is fine as I said, it's incompetence perhaps he's deluding himself ( which doesn't make him a liar if he believes his stuff works) but I don't get why all the woes of the world are placed at his feet by some. All styles have their problems with instructors who aren't as good as they think they are, still doesn't make them fakes or frauds just not very good instructors. Perhaps he's the victim of a not very good instructor himself, these things do tend to perpetuate themselves.


You have admitted you know nothing about him, yet you defend him anyway.

The man IS a fraud. He claims to know every style at a master level, and he is demonstrably untrained in most of them. He's been doing this for YEARS and ignores all feedback. He's a predator that targets people that can't tell the difference between real martial arts and acting.

Tell you what, look up whatever style you do(if any) and go see him do some kata or forms in that style. 

I did so with WC and LOL. Just lol.


----------



## oaktree

oaktree said:


> Because if you practice those arts they take a long time to learn and if some love-tard starts making things up it makes people think people who practice it also look like a love-tard.


I originally said f to the u to the c to letter next to J  not love.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> Jake Mace - Kung Fu Martial Arts School Dvd, Gardening School Seeds, Educational Consulting


I didn't know gardening was a martial art.


----------



## oaktree

To tamesd,
Someone asked me to post my thoughts on here and aikijutsu, which I did as a favor, how pathetic you are to have to search for my post to repost, what a f to the u to the c next to the j in loser you really are!


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> I didn't know gardening was a martial art.



I believe that it was part of a Samurai's job description.


----------



## Tez3

Martial D said:


> You have admitted you know nothing about him, yet you defend him anyway.
> 
> The man IS a fraud. He claims to know every style at a master level, and he is demonstrably untrained in most of them. He's been doing this for YEARS and ignores all feedback. He's a predator that targets people that can't tell the difference between real martial arts and acting.
> 
> Tell you what, look up whatever style you do(if any) and go see him do some kata or forms in that style.
> 
> I did so with WC and LOL. Just lol.



Ha ha, trying to start arguments again I see. I'm not defending him, I'm stopping the thread from being locked because of 'fraud busting' which isn't allowed here. You might want to think about libel cases, what is said on the internet isn't immune to court cases and I'm sure the site doesn't want to get involved in being sued. You might also want to think about that before calling him a predator. He may be but you need to watch what you are saying. I'm sure you will ignore me which is fine but don't whinge when there are consequences to your fraud busting.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> You have admitted you know nothing about him, yet you defend him anyway.
> 
> The man IS a fraud. He claims to know every style at a master level, and he is demonstrably untrained in most of them. He's been doing this for YEARS and ignores all feedback. He's a predator that targets people that can't tell the difference between real martial arts and acting.
> 
> Tell you what, look up whatever style you do(if any) and go see him do some kata or forms in that style.
> 
> I did so with WC and LOL. Just lol.


I wonder how much of his claims of expertise is the Dunning-Kruger effect. Just because he doesn't meet your definition of an expert/master, that doesn't mean he doesn't meet his own. The point made earlier about the difference between someone who is lying and someone who is deceived (even self-deceived) is significant to the ethics of the situation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

oaktree said:


> I originally said f to the u to the c to letter next to J  not love.


Yeah, I'm not sure why the system changes that particular word to "love" and all others it captures to "****". Annoys the love outta me.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I'm not sure why the system changes that particular word to "love" and all others it captures to "****". Annoys the love outta me.


I demand appropriate auto-inserted euphemisms for all censored verbiage!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> I demand appropriate auto-inserted euphemisms for all censored verbiage!


I'd prefer they all be wholly inappropriate, Tony, but entirely unrelated to the original word.


----------



## CB Jones

Tez3 said:


> Ha ha, trying to start arguments again I see. I'm not defending him, I'm stopping the thread from being locked because of 'fraud busting' which isn't allowed here. You might want to think about libel cases, what is said on the internet isn't immune to court cases and I'm sure the site doesn't want to get involved in being sued. You might also want to think about that before calling him a predator. He may be but you need to watch what you are saying. I'm sure you will ignore me which is fine but don't whinge when there are consequences to your fraud busting.



"In the context of *defamation* actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy, a *public figure* cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth)."

Jake Mace would have to prove that Martial D knew he was not a fraud and intentionally disregarded that truth.

Martial D or anyone else is allowed to voice or write his opinion of Jake Mace without it being considered defamation.


----------



## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> I demand appropriate auto-inserted euphemisms for all censored verbiage!



The Irish 'feck' is always good.


----------



## Tez3

CB Jones said:


> "In the context of *defamation* actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy, a *public figure* cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth)."
> 
> Jake Mace would have to prove that Martial D knew he was not a fraud and intentionally disregarded that truth.
> 
> Martial D or anyone else is allowed to voice or write his opinion of Jake Mace without it being considered defamation.



The problems for the website would start before the case went to court, the person who felt he'd been libelled would have his lawyers send letters asking the comments to be removed, do you think the website would even want that small step? There is a reason for the no fraud busting rule, to prevent anything, even letters from layers happening. If the person who felt he was being libelled had enough money he can still sue whether or not he stands a chance, the site would have to fork out for lawyers to defend even a specious case. 
Jake Mace could go back to Canada and sue from there, Canadian law is the same as UK and not the same as US law. 'Libel tourism' is something that is happening more and more now, cases where something said in the US but seen in the UK can be heard in a UK even when the person suing isn't from the UK! There was a Working Group set up by the  UK's Dept. of Justice to look into this and seek out ways to deal with it. So, there is reason to worry even if you think there isn't.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> I'd prefer they all be wholly inappropriate, Tony, but entirely unrelated to the original word.





Tez3 said:


> The Irish 'feck' is always good.



I vote for elaborate, antiquated, humorous euphemisms, randomly selected from an extensive list.

Ex: I didn't type "love", I meant playing the blanket hornpipe, inserting my matrimonial peacemaker into your Venus's honeypot. This coprophagous forum won't let me write what I mean. This is bovine scatology!


----------



## Xue Sheng

Tony Dismukes said:


> I vote for elaborate, antiquated, humorous euphemisms, randomly selected from an extensive list.
> 
> Ex: I didn't type "love", I meant playing the blanket hornpipe, inserting my matrimonial peacemaker into your Venus's honeypot. This coprophagous forum won't let me write what I mean. This is bovine scatology!



How about "take an aeronautical intercourse off of a piece of reciprocating perforated pastry"


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> Because of the angle that crosses usually come in when thrown.  If the person throws a linear cross then you'll have a chance, but if that cross comes in at an angle (as shown in the video) then the chance for a successful counter with that technique is slim.  It's just too much distance to cover with that technique when used against a cross, which is why he has that awkward lean in the video when he tries to counter with the technique.  The other issue is that crosses are usually the follow up punch and not the lead punch.  The problem with the demo is that it's slow which creates assumptions about when a technique can be done.
> 
> The safer application of that technique is to use it against a jab or a linear punch. People usually jab carelessly, often times they use it as a range finder which means they aren't really trying to hit you in the face with full force. Jabs you can easily parry, even when thrown at full force in comparison to crosses.  Parrying a jab is text book beginner technique for martial arts.
> 
> Here are examples of crosses and you'll see the angle that I'm talking about.  Also notice that the cross is the second punch.  The one that I really want you to focus on is the one at 4:45 because it best represents what Jake was doing and how his partner was replying.  I think this is the real danger of crosses.  At the moment the of trying to counter the incoming cross, he would have just redirected the cross from landing on one side of his face, only to have it land on the other side.  If your opponent sees you move then he'll just change the angle of his cross, which was what happened at 4:45. He thought the cross was coming down the middle but it didn't.



The destruction isn't the defensive technique though, the parry with his left arm is. Destructions can be applied in multiple ways from multiple angles. One way that a destruction can be applied is the way he did in the video. You parry the strike into the elbow. Without the the parry that particular destruction would be difficult to pull of, hence is why he parried.


----------



## hoshin1600

Xue Sheng said:


> How about "take an aeronautical intercourse off of a piece of reciprocating perforated pastry"



well $#!+    i have not idea what that even means


----------



## Paul_D

CB Jones said:


> But his application of it in fighting and self defense is questionable


He'd make a good Power Ranger, but if his videos on YouTube are anything to go by he doesn't know his **** from his elbow when it comes to SD.


----------



## Paul_D

jobo said:


> reading that i don't understand why people are so anal about authenticity of moves, it matters nothing if someone made them up half an hour ago, or they are hundreds of years old, they either work or they dont


Yes, I don't get that either.  If he punches you in the face, it hurts.  Your face doesn't ask for documentation to show he can trace his lineage back 500 years to some Chinese guy no one living even knows.


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> Ha ha, trying to start arguments again I see. I'm not defending him, I'm stopping the thread from being locked because of 'fraud busting' which isn't allowed here. You might want to think about libel cases, what is said on the internet isn't immune to court cases and I'm sure the site doesn't want to get involved in being sued. You might also want to think about that before calling him a predator. He may be but you need to watch what you are saying. I'm sure you will ignore me which is fine but don't whinge when there are consequences to your fraud busting.



I thank the internet gods every day you aren't a mod, so much as you love to act the part.


----------



## Xue Sheng

hoshin1600 said:


> well $#!+    i have not idea what that even means



Think "flying" and "rolling donut"


----------



## Paul_D

Martial D said:


> I thank the internet gods every day you aren't a mod, so much as you love to act the part.


If you are not here to learn from the people who know better than you, why are you here?

It's certainly not to contribute anything meaningful, as the way you talk about MA makes you sound like a 13 year old whose MA experience consists of masturbating over Bruce Lee films and playing Street Fughter II Turbo Edition.



Martial D said:


> Tell you what, look up whatever style you do(if any).


Tugg Speedman: There were times while I was playing Martial D where I felt...
[pause]
Tung Speedman: ...retarded. Like, really retarded.
Kirk Lazarus: Damn!
Tugg Speedman: In a weird way I had to sort of just free myself up to believe that is was ok to be stupid or dumb.
Kirk Lazarus: To be a moron.
Tugg Speedman: Yeah!
Kirk Lazarus: To be moronical.
Tugg Speedman: Exactly, to be a moron.
Kirk Lazarus: An imbecile.
Tugg Speedman: Yeah!
Kirk Lazarus: Like the dumbest mother ****** that ever lived.
Tugg Speedman: [pause] When I was playing the character.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Xue Sheng said:


> Think "flying" and "rolling donut"


You, apparently, know a pejorative recommendation I do not.


----------



## Xue Sheng

gpseymour said:


> You, apparently, know a pejorative recommendation I do not.



I wish I could take credit, but that was one from a Friend of mine who was a Marine and Vietnam Vet.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Xue Sheng said:


> I wish I could take credit, but that was one from a Friend of mine who was a Marine and Vietnam Vet.


I've known a few Marines. They all have a certain facility in this area.


----------



## Tez3

Martial D said:


> I thank the internet gods every day you aren't a mod, so much as you love to act the part.



It's a good job we aren't all like you taking no responsibility for anything you post here, some of us have been here a long time and we stay because we enjoy it, we'd like to carry on enjoying this place without there being stupid problems. You might note too that as a supporting member I pay to be here, so I guess that shows I support this place whereas you just come to be argumentative. You'll move on to the next forum soon enough though.


----------



## drop bear

Tony Dismukes said:


> I demand appropriate auto-inserted euphemisms for all censored verbiage!



Can we come up with them?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

drop bear said:


> Can we come up with them?


Wait, you mean you haven't been doing that already ("the Beej"?)???


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Wait, you mean you haven't been doing that already ("the Beej"?)???



There is that.


----------



## Danny T

Martial D said:


> You have admitted you know nothing about him, yet you defend him anyway.
> 
> The man IS a fraud.


It isn't about defending him...It is about those who post on MT adhering to the rules and policies of this forum. 
Fraud Busting is against the rules and policies you agreed to when signing up to post on MT. So please adhere to them.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Danny T said:


> It isn't about defending him...It is about those who post on MT adhering to the rules and policies of this forum.
> Fraud Busting is against the rules and policies you agreed to when signing up to post on MT. So please adhere to them.



yup

*1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. 
*
It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.
*
4.16 Official Policy on Fraud Busting and Credential Verification.


4.16.1 Fraud Busting*

Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork of another member. In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.

MartialTalk and its staff encourage the polite and professional search for knowledge. Questions and concerns may be brought up, with the understanding that the other party is under no requirement to answer.

Most questions may be raised within the forums dedicated to a particular art or area of interest. For example, Kenpo Lineage questions in the Kenpo forum, are fine. Others of a more serious note, are to be limited to the The Great Debate forum.

Excessive *"*Inquisitor-style" questioning is not allowed and will be subject to administrative action. If you have had to ask a question more than 3 times, you are most likely running the risk of excessive.

In addition, Hot Pursuit actions will not be tolerated. The Hot Pursuit is defined as asking the same or similar questions in multiple threads and / or forums.

Members who become excessively obsessed, inquisitive or interrogative, will be subject to administrative action. Members who are involved in excessive arguments that disrupt the forum, may be subject to administrative action due to the disruption of the normal operation of this forum
*
4.16.4 Fraud Reports*
MartialTalk has an existing fraud busting policy. It's intent is to avoid site disruptions, juvenile games, and mud fests. Members may report on verifiable cases of fraud and criminal behavior in the Horror Stories section. All content must comply to our existing policy rules.


----------



## drop bear

Everyone's a moderator today.


Which is also against the rules. 

(Yes I understand the irony of what I posted)


----------



## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Everyone's a moderator today.
> 
> 
> Which is also against the rules.
> 
> (Yes I understand the irony of what I posted)



Certain responsibilities are incumbent on all posters.


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> It's a good job we aren't all like you taking no responsibility for anything you post here, some of us have been here a long time and we stay because we enjoy it, we'd like to carry on enjoying this place without there being stupid problems. You might note too that as a supporting member I pay to be here, so I guess that shows I support this place whereas you just come to be argumentative. You'll move on to the next forum soon enough though.


Don't hold your breath toots.


----------



## Martial D

Xue Sheng said:


> *
> 
> 4.16.1 Fraud Busting*
> 
> Due to its nature, this forum encourages the asking and answering of questions. Many times one member will have questions and concerns about the history, skills, lineage, or paperwork *of another member.* In other cases, things may be stated on a webpage, flyer or article relating to a member that raises some questions. Sometimes, comments will have been made elsewhere and those issues carried over to MartialTalk.



I wasn't aware JM was a member here.


----------



## Martial D

Paul_D said:


> If you are not here to learn from the people who know better than you, why are you here?.



That is why, actually. As well as talking shop.

As far as the member I was responding to, if I ever need lessons in being a condecending self appointed mother figure, she would be the first one I'd hit up.

As for you asking why I'm here..well lol. Didn't you make an epic expletive  filled I QUIT thread a couple months back?


----------



## Tames D

oaktree said:


> To tamesd,
> Someone asked me to post my thoughts on here and aikijutsu, which I did as a favor, how pathetic you are to have to search for my post to repost, what a f to the u to the c next to the j in loser you really are!


You are a piece of work dude. Why didn’t you stay away like you promised...LOL, LOL


----------



## Tez3

Martial D said:


> That is why, actually. As well as talking shop.
> 
> As far as the member I was responding to, if I ever need lessons in being a condecending self appointed mother figure, she would be the first one I'd hit up.
> 
> As for you asking why I'm here..well lol. Didn't you make an epic expletive  filled I QUIT thread a couple months back?



Banker.


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> Banker.


Whatever that is supposed to mean in whatever backwoods regional slang you are using, it's lost on me. A banker is someone that works at a bank?


----------



## Balrog

TigerHeart said:


> I watch plenty of videos on Jake Mace.  He seems he knows what he is doing, and he looks like he is very good at it.  There are few people calling him a fraud.  Really, all his videos are just a lie?


The two words "Online School" should send you running.


----------



## Tez3

Martial D said:


> Whatever that is supposed to mean in whatever backwoods regional slang you are using, it's lost on me. A banker is someone that works at a bank?



 Cockney rhyming slang mate, keep your hair on. I'm not insulting you only describing you.


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> Cockney rhyming slang mate, keep your hair on. I'm not insulting you only describing you.


Right, so name calling it is. Surprise surprise.

The low road well traveled.

If not for that, playing forum mommy or sneering down your nose, your post count would be like 5.


----------



## Steve

Well, I for one, think Jake Mace seems like a nice young man.  I would treat his advice on self defense much as I treat most everyone's advice on the subject, which is to say, with a healthy skepticism.  But that's not unique to him.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> I wonder how much of his claims of expertise is the Dunning-Kruger effect. Just because he doesn't meet your definition of an expert/master, that doesn't mean he doesn't meet his own. The point made earlier about the difference between someone who is lying and someone who is deceived (even self-deceived) is significant to the ethics of the situation.


Perhaps, but the man gets a ton of feedback which he can't possibly be unaware of. It could be that he believes he is the only true master, and the thousands of people in his youtube comments, open letters, one on one interactions etc are the real fraudsters(not to mention the things he tries to pass a X art never seem to resemble X art in any significant way), but I can't even comprehend the extent of cognitive dissonance that would make this possible.

But then again, Einstein once wrote that only two things were infinite; the universe and...


----------



## Steve

Martial D said:


> Perhaps, but the man gets a ton of feedback which he can't possibly be unaware of. It could be that he believes he is the only true master, and the thousands of people in his youtube comments, open letters, one on one interactions etc are the real fraudsters(not to mention the things he tries to pass a X art never seem to resemble X art in any significant way), but I can't even comprehend the extent of cognitive dissonance that would make this possible.
> 
> But then again, Einstein once wrote that only two things were infinite; the universe and...


Interesting fact about cognitive dissonance that seems relevant here.  Ever hear the term "fake it 'til you make it?"  If you think about it, that is what is often considered a viable reaction to cognitive dissonance.  The "fake it" part is the dissonance, and the "make it" part is the reaction by the brain to reduce the dissonance.


----------



## Martial D

Steve said:


> Interesting fact about cognitive dissonance that seems relevant here.  Ever hear the term "fake it 'til you make it?"  If you think about it, that is what is often considered a viable reaction to cognitive dissonance.  The "fake it" part is the dissonance, and the "make it" part is the reaction by the brain to reduce the dissonance.


So you are saying maybe he believes he is simply on the next level, and that's why nobody gets it, and why his version of all the arts he has 'mastered' is so dissimilar from its namesake?

Correct me if I've lost your point here.


----------



## Tez3

Martial D said:


> Right, so name calling it is. Surprise surprise.
> 
> The low road well traveled.
> 
> If not for that, playing forum mommy or sneering down your nose, your post count would be like 5.



Ah sweetie, I haven't called you names.  You seem to have a complex though about mothers and thinking people are looking down on you? Have you seen anyone about this, you seem to be getting awfully upset again. It's noticeable that you don't take on any of the blokes when they address you, are you a misogynist as well?


----------



## Martial D

Tez3 said:


> Ah sweetie, I haven't called you names.  You seem to have a complex though about mothers and thinking people are looking down on you? Have you seen anyone about this, you seem to be getting awfully upset again. It's noticeable that you don't take on any of the blokes when they address you, are you a misogynist as well?



Sigh. 

I just don't have any more time for you. Interaction with you is never informative or stimulating, and always degenerates into drama. I can't think of a single post you have ever made that actually relates to martial arts in any meaningful way. Bye bye now.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Perhaps, but the man gets a ton of feedback which he can't possibly be unaware of. It could be that he believes he is the only true master, and the thousands of people in his youtube comments, open letters, one on one interactions etc are the real fraudsters(not to mention the things he tries to pass a X art never seem to resemble X art in any significant way), but I can't even comprehend the extent of cognitive dissonance that would make this possible.
> 
> But then again, Einstein once wrote that only two things were infinite; the universe and...


He may simply dismiss those as “purists” or as people who don’t understand. We have seen both of those happen here with people who have less experience than Mace.


----------



## Martial D

gpseymour said:


> He may simply dismiss those as “purists” or as people who don’t understand. We have seen both of those happen here with people who have less experience than Mace.


I guess it's possible. I do think it's more likely he has made a lot of money doing what he is doing, and as such just doesn't care about authenticity.

I guess we will never really know.


----------



## pgsmith

I've never seen his videos or heard his opinions, I didn't go look at his videos or read his opinions, I don't really care about his videos or his opinions. There are a huge number of sites on the internet that get paid whenever anyone clicks on them. The majority of them are total garbage. Why people wish to go clicking on all these sites just to be able to say "yep, that's garbage!" does not make any sense to me.

  My own training is what interests me. Whatever this person has to say or show on the internet in order to get money for people clicking on his stuff is none of my concern, nor does it interest me in the least. 

  Since everyone else has an opinion, I didn't want to feel left out ...


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> The destruction isn't the defensive technique though, the parry with his left arm is. Destructions can be applied in multiple ways from multiple angles. One way that a destruction can be applied is the way he did in the video. You parry the strike into the elbow. Without the the parry that particular destruction would be difficult to pull of, hence is why he parried.


I understand the technique.  I actually understand that technique better than I understand kung fu.  You can't apply that technique against multiple angles.  Don't take my word for it.  Try it out yourself and you can see where the error of that video exists.


----------



## Steve

Martial D said:


> So you are saying maybe he believes he is simply on the next level, and that's why nobody gets it, and why his version of all the arts he has 'mastered' is so dissimilar from its namesake?
> 
> Correct me if I've lost your point here.


No, nothing so specific.  It's interesting to me because it speaks to a commonly held belief that if you pretend to do something for long enough, your mind will close the gap you know exists.  It was really not intended to be more than sharing a bit of trivia... like a relevant aside.


----------



## Tez3

Martial D said:


> Sigh.
> 
> I just don't have any more time for you. Interaction with you is never informative or stimulating, and always degenerates into drama. I can't think of a single post you have ever made that actually relates to martial arts in any meaningful way. Bye bye now.



You bring the drama, what you whinge about seeing in me is actually what is in you not me. To go through life so angry and hating women so much is a sad way of living but still you have made your choice,  if you put me on ignore we will be rid of your angst.


----------



## Martial D

Steve said:


> No, nothing so specific.  It's interesting to me because it speaks to a commonly held belief that if you pretend to do something for long enough, your mind will close the gap you know exists.  It was really not intended to be more than sharing a bit of trivia... like a relevant aside.



Human psychology is a fascinating thing, but it also gives me a headache. I prefer cats to be honest.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> Ah sweetie, I haven't called you names.  You seem to have a complex though about mothers and thinking people are looking down on you? Have you seen anyone about this, you seem to be getting awfully upset again. It's noticeable that you don't take on any of the blokes when they address you, are you a misogynist as well?


You called him "sweetie."  Isn't that a name?  And you called him Banker, which you so helpfully clarified is cockney slang.  So, according to "cockneyrhymingslang.co.uk" is slang for... good lord!!!  That's not nice at all!!  LOL


----------



## Steve

pgsmith said:


> I've never seen his videos or heard his opinions, I didn't go look at his videos or read his opinions, I don't really care about his videos or his opinions. There are a huge number of sites on the internet that get paid whenever anyone clicks on them. The majority of them are total garbage. Why people wish to go clicking on all these sites just to be able to say "yep, that's garbage!" does not make any sense to me.
> 
> My own training is what interests me. Whatever this person has to say or show on the internet in order to get money for people clicking on his stuff is none of my concern, nor does it interest me in the least.
> 
> *  Since everyone else has an opinion, I didn't want to feel left out ...  */


I felt the same way!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> I guess it's possible. I do think it's more likely he has made a lot of money doing what he is doing, and as such just doesn't care about authenticity.
> 
> I guess we will never really know.


I've been amazed at the number of people I've talked to who were not what they thought they were. Rationalization, confirmation bias, and response to cognitive dissonance are funny things.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Martial D said:


> Human psychology is a fascinating thing, but it also gives me a headache. I prefer cats to be honest.


Oddly, my cats prefer humans.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> I've been amazed at the number of people I've talked to who were not what they thought they were. Rationalization, confirmation bias, and response to cognitive dissonance are funny things.



Been there myself during my RSBD phase.


----------



## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Certain responsibilities are incumbent on all posters.



Apparently not though.


----------



## Xue Sheng

Martial D said:


> I wasn't aware JM was a member here.



He's not, it was just one of the 3 sections of the MT rules that deal with fraud busting that I posted so interested posters would know what they all are.

Did not expect that I would have to point out which one applied to this thread, thought that was fairly obvious.....but ok, if neccesary..
*
1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. *applies to this thread


----------



## Midnight-shadow

Martial D said:


> Perhaps, but the man gets a ton of feedback which he can't possibly be unaware of. It could be that he believes he is the only true master, and the thousands of people in his youtube comments, open letters, one on one interactions etc are the real fraudsters(not to mention the things he tries to pass a X art never seem to resemble X art in any significant way), but I can't even comprehend the extent of cognitive dissonance that would make this possible.
> 
> But then again, Einstein once wrote that only two things were infinite; the universe and...



I have a simpler explanation, which I like to call the "internet troll" syndrome. Simply put, there are so many internet trolls around these days that often it is hard to tell the difference between negative but constructive criticism and trolling. Because of this most big YouTube personalities flat out ignore any comment that doesn't match their specific point of view. 

Jake has confirmed this in a recent video where he said that he spends a bit of time each day looking at the comments of his videos, and only reads and responds to "genuine" questions and positive feedback. In his mind ,anything even slightly negative is just a troll and should be ignored.


----------



## Steve

There is a school of thought that suggests the greatest leaders and change agents in history doggedly refuse to believe any version of reality that conflicts with the one they are trying to create.   Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, you name it.  And they are, by definition out of touch with reality, because they are trying to effect their own.   This is the BHAG philosophy.  SMART goals are the minimum.  That’s what is acceptable, and by definition achievable.   These guy dream big... big, hairy, audacious goals.   They shoot for the stars, and actively refuse to acknowledge naysayers.


----------



## Martial D

Steve said:


> There is a school of thought that suggests the greatest leaders and change agents in history doggedly refuse to believe any version of reality that conflicts with the one they are trying to create.   Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, you name it.  And they are, by definition out of touch with reality, because they are trying to effect their own.   This is the BHAG philosophy.  SMART goals are the minimum.  That’s what is acceptable, and by definition achievable.   These guy dream big... big, hairy, audacious goals.   They shoot for the stars, and actively refuse to acknowledge naysayers.


While I would admit this is a good way to achieve your dreams, one can't discount the value of hard work.

If Steve Jobs didn't know computers we still wouldn't have i-stuff, regardless of how much he believed.


----------



## Martial D

Xue Sheng said:


> He's not, it was just one of the 3 sections of the MT rules that deal with fraud busting that I posted so interested posters would know what they all are.
> 
> Did not expect that I would have to point out which one applied to this thread, thought that was fairly obvious.....but ok, if neccesary..
> *
> 1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. *applies to this thread


Seems to me that whole section pertains to user to user interactions. It sure is phrased that way.


----------



## Steve

Martial D said:


> While I would admit this is a good way to achieve your dreams, one can't discount the value of hard work.
> 
> If Steve Jobs didn't know computers we still wouldn't have i-stuff, regardless of how much he believed.


Interestingly, his BHAG had nothing to do with what computers could do at the time he started.  His genius was his vision, and his ability to inspire others to figure it out.   I would go one step further and say that if he had relied on what he knew about computers, we would still not have the iPod, much less than iPad, iPhone, or anything else. 

And look at what apple has done since... squat.  Minimal innovation on existing products.

But yeah, it also takes hard work.


----------



## Martial D

His foothold started with making the apple 2e idiotproof and marketing it to schools in the 80s.

All the trendy stuff came 25 years later.


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> I understand the technique.  I actually understand that technique better than I understand kung fu.  You can't apply that technique against multiple angles.  Don't take my word for it.  Try it out yourself and you can see where the error of that video lies.



I didn't say that particular destruction can be done at multiple angles, I said destructions in general are done at multiple angles. You don't know what technique your opponent is going to throw. This is why we train proper destructions for the proper angles. Think of it like you would a block, you're not going to use the same block for all attacks. I've being doing Filipino Martial Arts for 5 years, thus I'm speaking from experience. We have practiced that technique in drills and sparring(with gloves) and we are able to execute the technique.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Steve said:


> There is a school of thought that suggests the greatest leaders and change agents in history doggedly refuse to believe any version of reality that conflicts with the one they are trying to create.   Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, you name it.  And they are, by definition out of touch with reality, because they are trying to effect their own.   This is the BHAG philosophy.  SMART goals are the minimum.  That’s what is acceptable, and by definition achievable.   These guy dream big... big, hairy, audacious goals.   They shoot for the stars, and actively refuse to acknowledge naysayers.


Agreed. If it works, they are genius. If they fail, they are your cousin Carl, who never seems to accept reality.


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> There is a school of thought that suggests the greatest leaders and change agents in history doggedly refuse to believe any version of reality that conflicts with the one they are trying to create.   Steve Jobs, Jeff Bezos, you name it.  And they are, by definition out of touch with reality, because they are trying to effect their own.   This is the BHAG philosophy.  SMART goals are the minimum.  That’s what is acceptable, and by definition achievable.   These guy dream big... big, hairy, audacious goals.   They shoot for the stars, and actively refuse to acknowledge naysayers.



The problem is for every Steve Jobs....there is also a Bernie Madoff selling snake oil.  You have to be careful who you put your trust in.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> I didn't say that particular destruction can be done at multiple angles, I said destructions in general are done at multiple angles.


Ok. I misunderstood you.  I thought you were talking about that technique.  My comments only refer to that specific technique in the video that I pointed out.


----------



## Danny T

Xue Sheng said:


> He's not, it was just one of the 3 sections of the MT rules that deal with fraud busting that I posted so interested posters would know what they all are.
> 
> Did not expect that I would have to point out which one applied to this thread, thought that was fairly obvious.....but ok, if neccesary..
> *
> 1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. *applies to this thread





Martial D said:


> Seems to me that whole section pertains to user to user interactions. It sure is phrased that way.


1.10.3 is what Xue Sheng posted and is written as:
*1.10.3 No Individual Bashing / Fraud Busting. *
It is not our mission to out and expose frauds or decide who "sucks". Such discussions rarely lead anywhere other than to headaches, and lawsuits.

*4.16.1 Fraud Busting *
Discusses member to member interactions.


----------



## Steve

Martial D said:


> His foothold started with making the apple 2e idiotproof and marketing it to schools in the 80s.
> 
> All the trendy stuff came 25 years later.


he got fired from his own company after the apple 2e and the first mac.


----------



## Steve

CB Jones said:


> The problem is for every Steve Jobs....there is also a Bernie Madoff selling snake oil.  You have to be careful who you put your trust in.


jobs and Madoff have nothing in common.  Madoff has a lot in common with every other hedhe fund manager.  Jobs had a lot in common with people who have a vision for something we all want but have never even imagined yet.  A computer in our pocket.  A car in every every garage.  Drone delivery of our amazon packages.  Commercial space travel.  Flying cars.   That's the BHAG.   selling a ponzi scheme is not the same thing.

Edit.  Just want to be clear. I’m not judging one way or the other whether this guy is a visionary.   I’m suggesting he may think he is one.  Actual evaluation would be evaluating if he is a fraud or not, and that is a violation of the ToS.


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> Ok. I misunderstood you.  I thought you were talking about that technique.  My comments only refer to that specific technique in the video that I pointed out.



I'm still stating that the destruction he used is a proper technique. I wanted to clarify that destructions are used from multiple angles, and the one he used works.


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> jobs and Madoff have nothing in common.  Madoff has a lot in common with every other hedhe fund manager.  Jobs had a lot in common with people who have a vision for something we all want but have never even imagined yet.  A computer in our pocket.  A car in every every garage.  Drone delivery of our amazon packages.  Commercial space travel.  Flying cars.   That's the BHAG.   selling a ponzi scheme is not the same thing.



I disagree



Steve said:


> refuse to believe any version of reality that conflicts with the one they are trying to create.





Steve said:


> They shoot for the stars, and actively refuse to acknowledge naysayers.



I think many of the Madoff's in the world fall into this as well except due to greed and the lack of morals and ethics they end up on a criminal path.  But the same characteristics that make successful businessmen are often times they same traits that make big time criminals.


----------



## Steve

CB Jones said:


> I disagree
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think many of the Madoff's in the world fall into this as well except due to greed and the lack of morals and ethics they end up on a criminal path.  But the same characteristics that make successful businessmen are often times they same traits that make big time criminals.


You’re a cop.  Right?


----------



## CB Jones

Steve said:


> You’re a cop.  Right?



yes


----------



## CB Jones

I don't think Jake Mace is a fraud....he is a MA instructor and probably thinks this techniques will work.....I just don't care for what he teaches as self defense.

Uppercuts using the back of your wrist?  Women with little to no training "dead legging" would be rapists with a roundhouse kick to the leg?  or Muay Thai clinch would be rapists?


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> I'm still stating that the destruction he used is a proper technique. I wanted to clarify that destructions are used from multiple angles, and the one he used works.


Believe what you want.  To put my experience in context of using elbows to break hands:  I've been using that technique effectively for more than 26 years.  It's one of the few techniques I can when I feel like and at a high rate of success.  After 26 years of using that elbow strikes to attack both hands and kicks, there's just no way I would have used that elbow against the type of punch that Jake thew which was coming in at an angle.   It would have been much easier to cover to block that punch and at the same time punch my opponent than trying to lean to the side trying to break his hand when the punch was clearly not in the best position to do so. 

To each his own.


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> Believe what you want.  To put my experience in context of using elbows to break hands:  I've been using that technique effectively for more than 26 years.  It's one of the few techniques I can when I feel like and at a high rate of success.  After 26 years of using that elbow strikes to attack both hands and kicks, there's just no way I would have used that elbow against the type of punch that Jake thew which was coming in at an angle.   It would have been much easier to cover to block that punch and at the same time punch my opponent than trying to lean to the side trying to break his hand when the punch was clearly not in the best position to do so.
> 
> To each his own.



I just realized that our disagreement is based on the definition of a "cross". A cross is thrown in a straight line, what Jake threw was a haymaker. I forgot he threw a haymaker in the middle of our conversation. I agree it's not the proper technique against a haymaker(what Jake threw). However; it would be effective against a cross, a "cross" also referred to as a "straight" being thrown in a straight line and parried into the elbow. That is the technique we have done in drills and sparring.


----------



## JowGaWolf

CB Jones said:


> I don't think Jake Mace is a fraud....he is a MA instructor and probably thinks this techniques will work.....I just don't care for what he teaches as self defense.
> 
> Uppercuts using the back of your wrist?  Women with little to no training "dead legging" would be rapists with a roundhouse kick to the leg?  or Muay Thai clinch would be rapists?


  Just for you


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> However; it would be effective against a cross, a "cross" also referred to as a "straight" being thrown in a straight line and parried into the elbow.


Yes the technique would work against this type of punch that you are describing. 

Haymakers for me would be punches that are wider than what Jake threw they are almost circular. So you would be correct with how we are defining where a cross ends and a haymaker begins. 

Anything coming straight down the line as you describe would be easy pickings for someone who practices the techniques.  Jake mentioned that hand covers the punch as the elbow strikes the fist. In the video it was a left hand cover and right elbow strike.  When I teach the technique I explain it as one hand guides the punch to the elbow.   We naturally can touch our elbows with the opposite hand with our eyes closed. In sparring and fighting I'm using one hand to redirect and guide the punch to my elbow.  

It's definitely a dangerous technique even when done at a slow pace.  I ban this technique in sparring. I only allow students to use elbow strikes against kicks but not against punches. It's just too easy to damage the hand if the technique lands.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> We have practiced that technique in drills and sparring(with gloves) and we are able to execute the technique.


Do you use boxing gloves during sparring, when you train this technique?


----------



## Midnight-shadow

JowGaWolf said:


> Just for you



Very interesting. Just looking at that second video, I'm a little bit confused by the stance they are using for sparring, which looks to me almost like a JKD stance....but not. Also the way they are setting up the side kicks seems very weird to me. Skip to 38:40 for the actual sparring (sort of).


----------



## JowGaWolf

Midnight-shadow said:


> Very interesting. Just looking at that second video, I'm a little bit confused by the stance they are using for sparring, which looks to me almost like a JKD stance....but not. Also the way they are setting up the side kicks seems very weird to me. Skip to 38:40 for the actual sparring (sort of).


I thought it would be good to show him teaching others.  Now people can come to their own conclusion. The way people teach speaks volumes to how much they actually understand about the system they train in.


----------



## Tarrycat

Xue Sheng said:


> There is a post somewhere here on MT, that I am not going to look for, that was made by Clfsean. He posted the history of Jake Mace and the training he received and why he separated from that group. I was part of that thread, but I cannot remember the title. So if anyone is that interested it is on here somewhere.




I searched it & came across this topic:

"UFC proves KF useless"

Pg. 16 - where they talk extensively about Jake Mace's teacher (via Youtube videos & such).


----------



## Xue Sheng

Martial D said:


> Seems to me that whole section pertains to user to user interactions. It sure is phrased that way.



I'm not going to explain it further here, that would be pointless, so go with whatever you wish to believe


----------



## RTKDCMB

Martial D said:


> Whatever that is supposed to mean in whatever backwoods regional slang you are using, it's lost on me. A banker is someone that works at a bank?


Put your index fingers in the corners of your mouth and pull them apart whilst saying 'banker' and you will figure it out.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Martial D said:


> Right, so name calling it is. Surprise surprise.
> 
> The low road well traveled.


You mean like calling someone 'toots'?


----------



## Tez3

RTKDCMB said:


> You mean like calling someone 'toots'?



Calling a woman in her sixties 'toots' is quite weird.


----------



## RTKDCMB

Tez3 said:


> Calling a woman in her sixties 'toots' is quite weird.


Especially when the comment is from the forties.


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> Do you use boxing gloves during sparring, when you train this technique?



We use specialized large padded gloves with finger holes when we spar. That way we can train destructions and can still grab


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> We use specialized large padded gloves with finger holes when we spar. That way we can train destructions and can still grab


I would like to see what those gloves look like if you have one.  It may be something that students can use.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> I would like to see what those gloves look like if you have one.  It may be something that students can use.



Gloves like these allow gripping (though reduced, somewhat, obviously) with lots of padding. I use a pair like them sometimes.


----------



## Anarax

JowGaWolf said:


> I would like to see what those gloves look like if you have one.  It may be something that students can use.



I don't think they're still currently in production, but you can still find them on some websites. Here's a link


----------



## Midnight-shadow

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought it would be good to show him teaching others.  Now people can come to their own conclusion. The way people teach speaks volumes to how much they actually understand about the system they train in.



I agree, and I also think we need to differentiate between a good/bad teacher and a good/bad martial artist. You could be a champion MMA fighter but that doesn't mean you can teach for squat. Similarly, you could be a fantastic teacher and yet have very knowledge to teach with. After seeing Jake teaching properly now, I would say he is a good teacher. Not the best but certainly not bad. He is very clear in his approach, knowing exactly what he expects from his students and has a good idea of how the session is going to run. He gives instant feedback and corrects mistakes as they come up rather than ignoring them. He also has a lot of energy and gets involved with his students, rather than just sitting back shouting orders at them. If I really wanted to criticise his teaching I would say that sometimes he gets a bit too involved with the exercises which means he cannot fully observe his students to make sure they are doing it properly. The horse stance is a prime example where he did the stance with his students and couldn't see one of his students leaning forwards in the stance, something I'm sure he would have corrected if he had seen it. 

So overall, I think Jake is a good teacher, it's just a matter of whether people think that the material of his teaching is up to scratch. Having very limited knowledge of the martial arts he does I can't really comment on that, and it's up for debate either way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Anarax said:


> I don't think they're still currently in production, but you can still find them on some websites. Here's a link


I think those are the exact ones I have in my bag.


----------



## Paul_D

Martial D said:


> That is why, actually


And your chosen method of learning is to disagree with everyone who tries to educate you. That's certainly a novel, if somewhat fundamentally flawed, approach.



Martial D said:


> As for you asking why I'm here..well lol. Didn't you make an epic expletive  filled I QUIT thread a couple months back?



No, it was an epic expletive filled post, not an epic expletive filled thread.  Thanks for thinking it was epic though even though you are one of the mentally subnormal fuktards that has contributed significantly to destroying what was once the best MA forum by a country mile.

I also wrote an epic expletive filled blog post explaning why I am back, but of course you wouldn't bother to read that first would you, as that would require time and effort on your part to lovely educate yourself about a subject before posting.  Where as it takes much more less effort to continue to post from a position of ignorance.


----------



## Anarax

gpseymour said:


> I think those are the exact ones I have in my bag.



The gloves are very versatile. I use them for bagwork, empty handed and stick sparring. I've gotten so much use out of them and they have plenty of use left.


----------



## drop bear

gpseymour said:


> Gloves like these allow gripping (though reduced, somewhat, obviously) with lots of padding. I use a pair like them sometimes.



Use shoot boxing or hybrids.


----------



## drop bear

CB Jones said:


> The problem is for every Steve Jobs....there is also a Bernie Madoff selling snake oil.  You have to be careful who you put your trust in.



Bart vale.


----------



## Martial D

Paul_D said:


> And your chosen method of learning is to disagree with everyone who tries to educate you. That's certainly a novel, if somewhat fundamentally flawed, approach.


Not everyone. There are many level headed and knowledgeable people here who have been a delight to shoot the **** with and exchange viewpoints about martial arts with.

Enough in fact, that it makes dealing with the anal c#nts and know it all's tolerable.



> I also wrote an epic expletive filled blog post explaning why I am back, but of course you wouldn't bother to read that first would you, as that would require time and effort on your part to f***ing educate yourself about a subject before posting.  Where as it takes much more less effort to continue to post from a position of ignorance.



You are correct in that I do not seek out your posts. In fact, I generally skip over them.


----------



## Paul_D

Martial D said:


> There are many level headed and knowledgeable people here


And yet you still don't understand the difference between SD and fighting.



Martial D said:


> In fact, I generally skip over them.


No you don't, you keep quoting them and replying to them.  Your not very good at this are you, you haven't actually gotten anything correct yet.


----------



## Martial D

Paul_D said:


> And yet you still don't understand the difference between SD and fighting.


Well, I certainly don't accept you as any sort of authority on the subject.



> No you don't, you keep quoting them and replying to them.  Your not very good at this are you, you haven't actually gotten anything correct yet.



Only when you quote me in a post, and the site alerts me. Otherwise, I haven't found much of what you have to say very realistic, insightful, or interesting.

You done yet? I'm falling asleep.


----------



## Paul_D

Martial D said:


> Well, I certainly don't accept you as any sort of authority on the subject.
> 
> Only when you quote me in a post, and the site alerts me. Otherwise, I haven't found much of what you have to say very realistic, insightful, or interesting.
> 
> You done yet? I'm falling asleep.


See, you did it again. Quoted and replied.  You're a special kind of stupid bless you x x


----------



## Martial D

Paul_D said:


> See, you did it again. Quoted and replied.  You're a special kind of stupid bless you x x



Interesting you would say that, as this particular conversation began with you quoting me, in a post that wasn't addressed to you, to say this -



> If you are not here to learn from the people who know better than you, why are you here?
> 
> It's certainly not to contribute anything meaningful, as the way you talk about MA makes you sound like a 13 year old whose MA experience consists of masturbating over Bruce Lee films and playing Street Fughter II Turbo Edition.



..which is an example of why I generally skip your posts. Angry key mashing nonsense.


----------



## Paul_D

Martial D said:


> Interesting you would say that, as this particular conversation began with you quoting me, in a post that wasn't addressed to you, to say this -
> 
> 
> 
> ..which is an example of why I generally skip your posts. Angry key mashing nonsense.


And replying.  again, to posts you don't reply to.


----------



## Martial D

Paul_D said:


> And replying.  again, to posts you don't reply to.


I said I generally skip your posts unless you quote me in them. Do you actually read replies?


----------



## Paul_D

Martial D said:


> Well, I certainly don't accept you as any sort of authority on the subject.


Where as someone who spends all his time training for consensual sparring, and _does not devote one single second of his training time to SD_, such as yourself,  (I spend about an hour a day hitting the bag and shadow boxing, and go in once a week for a 4 hour sparring/pads session with my group) is clearly far more knowledgable on the subject.

It would be funny if it weren't so worrying that you think preparing for a consensual sporting contest prepares you for SD.  Career criminals do not engage in mutually consensual one v one sparring in order to decide if they get to mug, rape or kill their victim.  Criminal violence is different to two skilled/trained martial artists trying to score points on a judges score card.  What would you do if your 80 year old Gran was worried about having her handbag stolen, tell her to join a boxing club? Unfortunately nothing anyone can say will dissuade you from your delusion.  Only waking up in a hospital bed thinking WTF will make you realise, but by then it's too late. 



Martial D said:


> I said I generally skip your posts unless you quote me in them. Do you actually read replies?


Yes.

Did you actually read the post, or did you just quote it as usual and then reply to what you think it's says rather than what it actually says.  That is what my post refers to. Its quite simple. I don't understand your confusion, unless English is not your first language.

Anyway, I have neither the time nor the crayons to keep explaing things to people who will never understand them as long as they have a brown hole their ****.  Particularly the ones who has contributed significantly to the dumbing down of the site since they joined. Welcome to my ignore list, any goodbye.


----------



## Martial D

Paul_D said:


> Where as someone who spends all his time training for consensual sparring, and _does not devote one single second of his training time to SD_, such as yourself,  (I spend about an hour a day hitting the bag and shadow boxing, and go in once a week for a 4 hour sparring/pads session with my group) is clearly far more knowledgable on the subject.
> 
> It would be funny if it weren't so worrying that you think preparing for a consensual sporting contest prepares you for SD.  Career criminals do not engage in mutually consensual one v one sparring in order to decide if they get to mug, rape or kill their victim.  Criminal violence is different to two skilled/trained martial artists trying to score points on a judges score card.  What would you do if your 80 year old Gran was worried about having her handbag stolen, tell her to join a boxing club? Unfortunately nothing anyone can say will dissuade you from your delusion.  Only waking up in a hospital bed thinking WTF will make you realise, but by then it's too late.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Did you actually read the post, or did you just quote it as usual and then reply to what you think it's says rather than what it actually says.  That is what my post refers to. Its quite simple. I don't understand your confusion, unless English is not your first language.
> 
> Anyway, I have neither the time nor the crayons to keep explaing things to people who will never understand them as long as they have a brown hole their ****.  Particularly the ones who has contributed significantly to the dumbing down of the site since they joined. Welcome to my ignore list, any goodbye.


lol

It's been a lovely discussion.


----------



## JowGaWolf

Anarax said:


> I don't think they're still currently in production, but you can still find them on some websites. Here's a link


Thanks.  I'll see if a store near me has some so I can test them out before buying.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks.  I'll see if a store near me has some so I can test them out before buying.


If mine were in my car, I could drop them by tomorrow on my way home from Alpharetta. Unfortunately they are in storage where I teach.


----------



## JowGaWolf

gpseymour said:


> If mine were in my car, I could drop them by tomorrow on my way home from Alpharetta. Unfortunately they are in storage where I teach.


Thanks for the thought.  How are you enjoying your visit Georgia?


----------



## Tez3

Paul_D said:


> Anyway, I have neither the time nor the crayons to keep explaing things to people who will never understand them as long as they have a brown hole their ****. Particularly the ones who has contributed significantly to the dumbing down of the site since they joined. Welcome to my ignore list, any goodbye



What I find interesting in your exchanges with him is that he doesn't accuse you of 'emotionalism', call you patronising names or talk down to you in the way he does with me, the misogyny is obvious. The aggressive trolling on his part though is obvious though.  I don't think he will stick around for long though, once he's argued with most posters he'll be off looking for a new site to annoy.


----------



## jobo

Paul_D said:


> Where as someone who spends all his time training for consensual sparring, and _does not devote one single second of his training time to SD_, such as yourself,  (I spend about an hour a day hitting the bag and shadow boxing, and go in once a week for a 4 hour sparring/pads session with my group) is clearly far more knowledgable on the subject.
> 
> It would be funny if it weren't so worrying that you think preparing for a consensual sporting contest prepares you for SD.  Career criminals do not engage in mutually consensual one v one sparring in order to decide if they get to mug, rape or kill their victim.  Criminal violence is different to two skilled/trained martial artists trying to score points on a judges score card.  What would you do if your 80 year old Gran was worried about having her handbag stolen, tell her to join a boxing club? Unfortunately nothing anyone can say will dissuade you from your delusion.  Only waking up in a hospital bed thinking WTF will make you realise, but by then it's too late.
> 
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Did you actually read the post, or did you just quote it as usual and then reply to what you think it's says rather than what it actually says.  That is what my post refers to. Its quite simple. I don't understand your confusion, unless English is not your first language.
> 
> Anyway, I have neither the time nor the crayons to keep explaing things to people who will never understand them as long as they have a brown hole their ****.  Particularly the ones who has contributed significantly to the dumbing down of the site since they joined. Welcome to my ignore list, any goodbye.


Paul, this is your ussual rant about,sd and as ussual you are both right and wrong dependent on context, there is a world of difference between sd for a 80 yo and sd for a young fit person, just as there is a world of,difference between the,sexes,

sd must have an element of situation so awareness and not putting yourself in danger, but how far you need to take that is very much down to your own physical abilities, and some times danger just comes and finds you no matter how careful you are

and your correct that a lot of ma doesn't prepare you for the sudden all out violence of an attack, especially an attack by someone who is more physically able than you. Who just walks though your punches,and picks you up by the neck 

the answer, is to be,as physically able as you can that way the number of people who can just over power you is limited, and to work very hard at your skills of the basics, that's punching kicking and movement,  

its risk reduction, the less you get yourself in dangerous,situation and the more able you are, the lower your chance of ending up in a hospital bed


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Thread locked pending review.

Brian VanCise
MartialTalk Moderator*


----------

