# Fat kid has had enough



## Bruno@MT (Mar 15, 2011)

The subject title is a literal translation of the Dutch title. Don't blame me for that.
I searched youtube but couldn't find it yet so you have to click the link to the facebook viedo.
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=152963141430995

Speaking as someone who was bullied in high school for a while, I think the little twerp got what was coming to him. And as an added bonus, he got shamed on the net. With any luck his parents get to see it too.

I doub't he'll be picking on big kids anytime soon.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 15, 2011)

Generally I would agree, but the bully could have easily been paralyzed or killed using this move.  Granted, 10 year olds don't have eagle eye foresight, but he still did the wrong thing.  If he had punched him in the mouth instead or just body slammed him, I wouldn't think that.


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## Big Don (Mar 15, 2011)

And that, boys and girls, is how we know the WWE is fake...
Holy crap. Talk about pissing off the wrong kid.


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 15, 2011)

What was the deal with the uniforms?  It seemed as if there were two groups, each wearing a different uniform.  Different schools?  Different grades?  The big kid looked like he was significantly older than the smaller kid; so did the other kid dressed like he was at the end.


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## K831 (Mar 15, 2011)

I won't comment on the right or wrong of it, since the video doesn't give enough context to really know what happened (i.e maybe the fat kid called the skinny kid's mom a whore and started it etc...) but I will say, its a testament to the whole "be careful who you mess with" idea. Don't hit someone in the face unless you are really ready to go. 

Also, I had a brief vision of me fighting Brock Lesnar right there.


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## mook jong man (Mar 15, 2011)

That is footage at an Australian school where apparently the smaller kid had been bullying the bigger kid for about a year.

The difference in uniforms might be explained by one class having P.E. (physical education) or it could be the schools sports day.

The little wanker got what he deserved , and even better that it happened in front of those girls that he was obviously trying to impress  , PRICELESS.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 15, 2011)

Already posted on AfterDark... :idunno:


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## David43515 (Mar 15, 2011)

It`s like I tried to tell my nephews growing up. There`s a good reason bobcats don`t chase grizzily bears....they might just catch one, and then things get ugly.


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## David43515 (Mar 15, 2011)

*hands rude little wanker his card*

"Hello, my name is David. I`ll be the 300 lbs man stomping on your chest tonight."


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## Rayban (Mar 15, 2011)

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/8224642/south-australia-plans-to-crack-down-on-cyber-bullying

I was quite a large kid (still am ) and I was bullied mercilessly.  While I may have reacted differently, (probably not a body slam) I still reacted and ended the threat when I could take no more.  Once I did this the bullying from everyone stopped.  I guess I just became too hard a target to bully, which is why they moved on to other students.

Bullying (in this country especially) is always tip toed around when it comes to the school yard.  But no matter how many mediation sessions you might have.  No matter how much detention or suspension you get.  The fact still remains that unless you can become a hard target, the bullies will continue.


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## David43515 (Mar 15, 2011)

I was a big kid too, and it always seemed that if I got picked on it was always by someone 1/2 my size. They mistake the fact that you`ve always been taught not to pick on the little guys with being afraid. Or maybe it`s not a mistake. Maybe it`s a consious choice because they  know someone their own size can wack `em without being thought of as a bad kid.


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## Rayban (Mar 15, 2011)

David43515 said:


> I was a big kid too, and it always seemed that if I got picked on it was always by someone 1/2 my size. They mistake the fact that you`ve always been taught not to pick on the little guys with being afraid. Or maybe it`s not a mistake. Maybe it`s a consious choice because they  know someone their own size can wack `em without being thought of as a bad kid.




Maybe so.  As school yard predators, they tend to pick on any perceived weakness they find.  Maybe they thought having the ethical discipline of "not picking on the little guy" was a weakness to exploit.  Or as in my experience they were just dumb as dogs**t.

Ethics can get a little blurry when you're a depressed and bullied kid.


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## K831 (Mar 16, 2011)

Rayban said:


> Ethics can get a little blurry when you're a depressed and bullied kid.



Any living creature if pushed far enough will become highly violent. Then we blame them for it.....It's better that this kid slammed a bully, rather than showing up at school after more years of abuse with with a gun and waxing the lot of them. Of course, if that happened, all anyone would think about is how messed up the kid was, and not how he got that way. (This is in no way a justification for such behavior, but I have seen school bullying get so bad, that I have often thought, I wouldn't be surprised if this kid goes postal on these bully's)

The video ended up on some news programs today, with callers around the world suggesting the big kid be charged with criminal offenses. WTF? Others were saying he was in the wrong because he didn't go to his teachers... why would he have any faith in them? Where were they for the year the bullying had been going on? I say, buy the kid an Xbox to enjoy during his suspension. He earned it.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 16, 2011)

David43515 said:


> It`s like I tried to tell my nephews growing up. There`s a good reason bobcats don`t chase grizzily bears....they might just catch one, and then things get ugly.


True that... but wolverines have been known to stand their ground and chase off Grizzlies and Browns off carrion that they claimed. Smaller and lighter weight than bears but probably 10 times meaner any day... So it is as they say... it isn't the the size of the man in the fight but the size of the fight in the man (or sumpthin like that).


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 16, 2011)

K831 said:


> The video ended up on some news programs today, with callers around the world suggesting the big kid be charged with criminal offenses. WTF? Others were saying he was in the wrong because he didn't go to his teachers... why would he have any faith in them? Where were they for the year the bullying had been going on? I say, buy the kid an Xbox to enjoy during his suspension. He earned it.



People who say things like that have no clue what it means to be bullied.
Criminal offenses? For what? For not letting himself be punched in the face anymore? That's rich. Did that come from US people perhaps? The twerp should be thankful that he learned a valuable life lesson without getting injured permanently.

Going to the teachers? Doesn't help. Unless there is video footage (in this day and age that would be simpler) it is a matter of he-said-she-said in front of a patronizing school principal. They won't be able to do anything about it, and the bullies will just be more careful not to get caught and they'll know you went talking and get extra mean.

Adults -unless they were bullied themselves- are completely clueless about bullying and what to do about it. Had the other kid broken his neck, fair enough, we could argue that that was over the top. However, imo no harm -> no foul.

My youngest sometimes comes home (she is 4) telling me that a boy from her class hurt her (she's a head shorter than the rest of the class) and then she tells me that she kicked or punched him back. And I reward that. Because she will most likely always be the shortest kid in any group. If I can prevent her from ever assuming a victim role, she will be better for it. Looking at the long run, even if you can't win it's better to go down fighting.


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## Rayban (Mar 16, 2011)

I posted this link:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...cyber-bullying

It happened in Western Sydney, Australia.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 16, 2011)

Rayban said:


> I posted this link:
> 
> http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...cyber-bullying
> 
> It happened in Western Sydney, Australia.



From the link:
*"Overnight [the video] has gone international [and] the concern for us is kids seeing it may think it's what they need to do if they are at the receiving end of bullying."*

Yes Sharlene, I think that is exactly what they need to do.
And I will back my kids no matter what happens if they ever need to do it.


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## oaktree (Mar 16, 2011)

If reasonable force was used in response to a punch I do not have an issue with.
 However reasonable force to a punch is not slamming someone on their head.
In my opinion slamming someone on their head is lethal force because the intent is to cause serious bodily harm.

The Bigger kid could have run away the Bigger kid could have responded in a non violent way and just restrained him, could have told a teacher and could have used reasonable force to defend himself.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 16, 2011)

oaktree said:


> The Bigger kid could have run away the Bigger kid could have responded in a non violent way and just restrained him, could have told a teacher and could have used reasonable force to defend himself.



The bigger kid did just that for over a year apparently.
Didn't help, did it? Personally I don't think there is value in teaching kids to stay victims and depending on other people to make sure noone tries to hurt them. They might as well tattoo 'kick me' on their foreheads. The little kid could have just not thrown the first punch. He could have just walked away after trying to land the second, third and fourth punch.

I agree that dunking someone on his head is an extreme action.
However, the bullying and provocations had built up for a long time. Even after the first solid punch to his face, the big kid only wanted to be left alone while the young kid indicated that he repeatedly wanted to punch him again, knowing full well someone was recording it. Perhaps because of it so he could embarras the big kid on facebook

In light of all that, I do not think the big kid reacted inappropriately. If you kick Mike Tyson in the nads, don't complain if he punches your head from your body.

Put it like this: if the big kid was my daughter, I'd back her all the way and buy her an Xbox to pass the time while suspended. If the little kid was my daughter, I'd apologize to the big kid, and had a heart to heart with my daughter that bullying is wrong and she got what she deserved. If the little kid had broken his neck, I'd agree with you. But he didn't. It all ended well and valuable lessons were learned.


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## mook jong man (Mar 16, 2011)

The latest , is that the mother of the the diminutive bully wants the victim to apologise to her toe rag of a son for pile driving him into the concrete. 

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/bullys-angry-mum-wants-victim-to-apologise/story-e6freuzi-1226022817182


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## K831 (Mar 16, 2011)

oaktree said:


> If reasonable force was used in response to a punch I do not have an issue with.
> However reasonable force to a punch is not slamming someone on their head.
> In my opinion slamming someone on their head is lethal force because the intent is to cause serious bodily harm.
> 
> The Bigger kid could have run away the Bigger kid could have responded in a non violent way and just restrained him, could have told a teacher and could have used reasonable force to defend himself.



First of all, "reasonable force" is subjective and is debated amongst highly intelligent and educated military, law enforcement, political/diplomatic and elected officials. Expecting a 13 year old kid to get it perfect is silly. 

Second, you say "in response to a punch" but there were multiple punches, and since the posting new info has come out, namely that this treatment has been ongoing for a year. Is  a body slam a reasonable response to 365 punches to the face? 

Third, to assert that just because he slammed him he must have had lethal intent is pretty presumptuous, and I would suggest, highly inaccurate. He slammed him because he is big. Small and quick fighter darts in and out punching, big slow fighter gets hold eventually and throws.. that's pretty much their best genetic options, which is why its the common tactic for both. 

Fourth - this is where many people miss the point when it comes to bullying. You are comparing the physical actions and the potential physical injury of each kid, and so it is easy to say body slam > punch. 

This is faulty logic however, because the damage caused by bullying is NOT PHYSICAL. It is the emotional damage to ones self esteem and confidence that is at risk. 

I have owned my own company for years. We are contracted by many other companies who need help training, motivating  their employees etc. EVERY LONG TERM SUCCESSFUL AND HEALTHY PERSON I have worked with had a solid self esteem and good helping of confidence. Every truly happy person I have met had the same. It is one of the common traits amongst them all. Want to know the common trait in most under-performing, unhappy, unsuccessful people? Its the same for people in co-dependent and unhealthy relationships - low confidence and low self worth. 

Now with that information, we can look at it this way; body slam < multiple punches AND humiliation that is damaging his self esteem and self confidence, thus damaging his chances at long term happiness and success. 

Is there a reasonable force problem in that context? Nope.... Bruno and I are in agreement.... my children will get rewarded for standing up to a bully in defense of themselves, or any other person being bullied, and they would have to do a lot for me to think their response was too violent. Attempts at taking from them their self respect, self confidence and self esteem can and should be met with heavy and swift response.

My 18 month old already works the focus mitts.... If any of my kids are caught using these skills to bully there will be hell to pay - but they are well aware that using their skills to stand up for others isn't just ok... it's expected.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 16, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> The latest , is that the mother of the the diminutive bully wants the victim to apologise to her toe rag of a son for pile driving him into the concrete.
> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/bullys-angry-mum-wants-victim-to-apologise/story-e6freuzi-1226022817182



Just read it. The mother says she raised her kids to walk away from violence. Given that the boy was bullied over a long time, those lessons didn't register.

I think she is more upset that her entire family and circle of friends has seen it by now, and she can no longer pretend her little darling is an innocent little angel. I also think she fails to appreciate that it was her son's friend who was recording it, no doubt for future entertainment value.


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## Empty Hands (Mar 16, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> If the little kid had broken his neck, I'd agree with you. But he didn't. It all ended well and valuable lessons were learned.



It's only luck that he didn't, which is what is fueling the concern.  Bullies are little *****, but they don't deserve paralysis and death.  I too will teach my children to defend themselves, but much as we do in my dojo, I will teach them to defend themselves appropriately.  The big kid used lethal force, he just got lucky this time.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 16, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> It's only luck that he didn't, which is what is fueling the concern.  Bullies are little *****, but they don't deserve paralysis and death.  I too will teach my children to defend themselves, but much as we do in my dojo, I will teach them to defend themselves appropriately.  The big kid used lethal force, he just got lucky this time.



I am glad he got lucky. Because he did not deserve any of this. I couldn't care less about the bully.

I was bullied for a while in high school. Getting hit occasionally, being called names etc is really not the worst part. The truly bad parts are the feeling of utter helplessness. The sinking feeling in your stomach every time you approach school. The feeling of hopelessness at the end of the holidays because you know the good days are over again. The fear every time they come for you, and you wonder if this will be the day they will do more than give you temporal hurt.

The absolute lack of self esteem starts becoming a habit and unless you manage to turn it around, you can carry it with you the rest of your life. Like this kid, at one point I snapped. It was in college when I finally thought I was free from bullying and then a couple of co-students confronted me and kicked a deck of cards out of my hands, soccer style. I was hit by a massive adrenalin surge and I got so angry that I vowed to myself that the next person to touch me was going to be pulped there and then.

The moment never came. I am thankful for that because I was beyond reason.  Something in my manner must have made them reconsider because from that day they never bothered me again. Noone ever did anymore for that matter. I was free. And I cannot begin to describe to how good that felt. Running away, running to the teacher, getting the system to deal with them does really do nothing for your feelings of self worth, your doubts and your fears. It will just postone the bullying.

So yes, I am biased. I am glad nothing bad happened to the bully because it would have been problematic for the big kid. But had he broken his neck, I really would not have felt sorry for the bully.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 16, 2011)

If the smaller child truly was the agressor then he desrved what he got. The large child picking him up and slamming him was probably the only thing he could think of at the time.

Was it excessive? Yes. Do I blame him for it? No. He probably could have just bolwed that smaller kid over, but the fact is he didn't. If the bully would have ended up paralyzed I would have felt bad for him, because he could grow up and change his ways and be helpful to society and live a good life. It would have been his own fault though.

I saw this on kidshealth.org 

_*Don't get physical.* However you choose to deal with a bully, don't use physical force (like kicking, hitting, or pushing). Not only are you showing your anger, you can never be sure what the bully will do in response. You are more likely to be hurt and get in to trouble if you use violence against a bully. You can stand up for yourself in other ways, such as gaining control of the situation by walking away or by being assertive in your actions. Some adults believe that bullying is a part of growing up (even that it is character building) and that hitting back is the only way to tackle the problem. But that's not the case. Aggressive responses tend to lead to more violence and more bullying for the victims_

As a social worker, someone who worked in schools, and former victim of bullying myself I have to say that at best this is a half truth.
I ABHORE violence. It is the most primitive form of communication, but because it is the most primitive comunication it is something every understands. Fighting back physically in some situations can of course lead to more problems than solutions, but sometimes that is the only way to stop a bully. I always recomend doing whatever you can to avoid violence until it becomes the only choice left to prevent further victimization.

Just like peace confrences and sanctions don't always work against Tyrants, mediation and telling adults doesn't always get a bully off your back. Sometimes you need a tactical strike.


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## KELLYG (Mar 16, 2011)

This kid had been harassed by the boy for over a year!    I have to give him a lot of credit for self discipline.  Most people would not have tolerated it that long.   Some as was stated before would do some thing more drastic like bringing a fire arm to school.   The smaller kid was hitting the larger kid at will, then started showboating when the bigger kid did not respond in kind, adding insult to injury.   I think that the smaller boy got what he deserved. The older kid showed more self discipline by walking away after the threat had been neutralized.  Props to the bigger guy, he did what was necessary and only what was necessary.


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## CoryKS (Mar 16, 2011)

I don't see the issue here, this was a simple exchange of information.  If you do this to me, I'll do this to you.  Basic communication.  Now if it happens again, it might be necessary for someone to step in to correct the problem.

But I don't think it's going to happen again.


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## Benevolentbob (Mar 16, 2011)

The scrawny kid had it coming.


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## oaktree (Mar 16, 2011)

> The bigger kid did just that for over a year apparently.
> Didn't help, did it? Personally I don't think there is value in teaching kids to stay victims and depending on other people to make sure noone tries to hurt them. They might as well tattoo 'kick me' on their foreheads. The little kid could have just not thrown the first punch. He could have just walked away after trying to land the second, third and fourth punch.
> 
> *I have been a victim of bullying before. 1.I told a teacher or an adult. If that did not work then 2.I would tell my parents who would then sit with the principal and the teacher. If that did not work than 3. I would fight if I had to. But I would never use lethal force on the person. What I saw from the video was the kid being punched he then had control of the bully and he could have restrained him but no he instead decided to use lethal force. *
> ...


 


> I agree that dunking someone on his head is an extreme action.
> However, the bullying and provocations had built up for a long time. Even after the first solid punch to his face, the big kid only wanted to be left alone while the young kid indicated that he repeatedly wanted to punch him again, knowing full well someone was recording it. Perhaps because of it so he could embarras the big kid on facebook


 
*Does not matter still can not use lethal force. For example if someone teases you and pushes you and punches you, you can not go and stab him with a knife and say "oh he picked on me for 2 years and this is just build up" *
*The response has to be appropriate to the situation.*
*If someone comes at me with a knife than lethal force is warranted.*




> In light of all that, I do not think the big kid reacted inappropriately. If you kick Mike Tyson in the nads, don't complain if he punches your head from your body.


 
*Ya but if I kick Tyson in the nads and he stabs me repeatly with a knife than that is lethal force. If Tyson slams me on the ground and I am a fragile 90 lb weakling than that may be considered lethal force.*




> Put it like this: if the big kid was my daughter, I'd back her all the way and buy her an Xbox to pass the time while suspended. If the little kid was my daughter, I'd apologize to the big kid, and had a heart to heart with my daughter that bullying is wrong and she got what she deserved. If the little kid had broken his neck, I'd agree with you. But he didn't. It all ended well and valuable lessons were learned


 
*I am all for standing up to bullies however I am not for excessive,lethal force when it is not warranted. To think you are and celebrate it Actually the small kid was wobbling he may have a concussion interesting that you approve of children causing each other concussions.*


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## Sukerkin (Mar 16, 2011)

Mate, he didn't slam him, he picked him up and then dropped him again.  He had had enough and grabbed the little **** ... not being a fighter, he didn't really know what to do after that, so he put him back where he found him.  You 'slam' someone down on hard ground and they don't get back up again without serious injury.

I have to say that I find any position that does not entail anything but sympathy for this poor kid distasteful.  What kind of moral judgement blames the lad who had been the victim for so long?  It might make me a bad person but even if he'd killed the **** by accident, I'd still feel sorry for him rather than the bully.

As has been said earlier in this thread, if you have not been bullied (and I mean really bullied, which is the equivalent of torture, rather than a bit of teasing or the odd sucker punch), then you don't really have a frame of reference to understand.  It doesn't mean you are lacking in empathy or are unwilling to try to see both sides; it just means, through good fortune, that you cannot understand, just as we people born male cannot understand rape from the female perspective.

EDIT:  Actually, just watched the video again and he did chuck him back on the ground but from only about 2 feet and hip first rather than head first.


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## oaktree (Mar 16, 2011)

> First of all, "reasonable force" is subjective and is debated amongst highly intelligent and educated military, law enforcement, political/diplomatic and elected officials. Expecting a 13 year old kid to get it perfect is silly


 
Which is why if a Teenager commits a crime resulting in death he may be charged in that Homicide. It does not matter if you don't know the laws its if you break them that matter. Just because I don't know all the statues of certain law does not mean I can say
"well I did not know I could not do that your honor." 




> Second, you say "in response to a punch" but there were multiple punches, and since the posting new info has come out, namely that this treatment has been ongoing for a year. Is a body slam a reasonable response to 365 punches to the face?


 

I am afraid tit for tat does not work in this case. Like I said earlier if someone punches you every day for 2 years you can not shoot him dead that woud be murder and most likely it would have been premeditated murder considering the length of time prior that may have lead you to shoot that person.



> Third, to assert that just because he slammed him he must have had lethal intent is pretty presumptuous, and I would suggest, highly inaccurate. He slammed him because he is big. Small and quick fighter darts in and out punching, big slow fighter gets hold eventually and throws.. that's pretty much their best genetic options, which is why its the common tactic for both.


 

I say lethal because he had him in his grip to stop him from punching and he had the time to think about his actions or what to do he choose to slam him on the floor. That means he had intent and the intent was lethal. The kid was wobbling means there is a good chance he may have had a concussion.



> Fourth - this is where many people miss the point when it comes to bullying. You are comparing the physical actions and the potential physical injury of each kid, and so it is easy to say body slam > punch.


 


No but in this case because of his size it becomes lethal force.
A 300 lb man slamming a 105 woman who punched him is lethal force.
A 105 lb woman slamming a 300 lb man may not be considered lethal force I suppose that depends on the jury.



> This is faulty logic however, because the damage caused by bullying is NOT PHYSICAL. It is the emotional damage to ones self esteem and confidence that is at risk.


 

I have been bullied too I am sure everyone has at some point. You can be assertive and find ways to deal with your bully without resulting in lethal force or causing great bodily harm that may cause paralysis or death. 

I am not saying do not stand up for yourself I am saying find alternatives to lethal force.
I also said if you have to fight then fight but use only the amount of force needed to end the conflict body slam on head is excessive.




> I have owned my own company for years. We are contracted by many other companies who need help training, motivating their employees etc. EVERY LONG TERM SUCCESSFUL AND HEALTHY PERSON I have worked with had a solid self esteem and good helping of confidence. Every truly happy person I have met had the same. It is one of the common traits amongst them all. Want to know the common trait in most under-performing, unhappy, unsuccessful people? Its the same for people in co-dependent and unhealthy relationships - low confidence and low self worth


 
No arugement there. However there is a caveat with this. Plenty of people who 
are defensive perssimistic who may not be seen as high self esteem or optimistic are still able to function well. 




> Now with that information, we can look at it this way; body slam < multiple punches AND humiliation that is damaging his self esteem and self confidence, thus damaging his chances at long term happiness and success.


 
His chances for long term happiness and success are not being jeperodized.
Many people who have been victim of bullies lead successful productive happy lifes.
Replace Body slam with Gun and make your arguement. 
Do you sympathize with the kids from Columbine and blame the people who bullied them
or do you think they could have found other alternatives that did not involved killing 12 students.




> Is there a reasonable force problem in that context? Nope.... Bruno and I are in agreement.... my children will get rewarded for standing up to a bully in defense of themselves, or any other person being bullied, and they would have to do a lot for me to think their response was too violent. Attempts at taking from them their self respect, self confidence and self esteem can and should be met with heavy and swift response.


There is no disagreement with standing up to bulling. 
What the issue is lethal force. 
I am making a guess that if your child used lethal force than you feel its ok based on this quote? So for you then if you child was being bullied than you would be ok if she shot and killed her bullies because they were taking her self respect, self confidence and self esteem there for justifys lethal force?




> My 18 month old already works the focus mitts.... If any of my kids are caught using these skills to bully there will be hell to pay - but they are well aware that using their skills to stand up for others isn't just ok... it's expected


You expect your kids to stand up to bullies this gives me the impression expect meaning to me, if they don't then do this, you dont have high regard for them or are disappointed in them. It seem to me you are trying to teach your children self esteem but using the term "expect" which comes off as do and I love you don't and I think less of you really can hurt a child's self esteem. 

Maybe this is not your intent and I am reading wrong but it comes off as that in my opinion.


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## oaktree (Mar 16, 2011)

> Mate, he didn't slam him, he picked him up and then dropped him again. He had had enough and grabbed the little **** ... not being a fighter, he didn't really know what to do after that, so he put him back where he found him. You 'slam' someone down on hard ground and they don't get back up again without serious injury.


 
He was slammed. But I guess picking up someone and dropping on the floor like that is not a slam to you well we will have to agree to disagree on it.



> As has been said earlier in this thread, if you have not been bullied (and I mean really bullied, which is the equivalent of torture, rather than a bit of teasing or the odd sucker punch), then you don't really have a frame of reference to understand. It doesn't mean you are lacking in empathy or are unwilling to try to see both sides; it just means, through good fortune, that you cannot understand, just as we people born male cannot understand rape from the female perspective.


 
I have been bullied rather extreme before and I can understand the wanting to harm even malice intent well but there is a difference between having them and acting upon them. I don' tknow if a male can understand rape from a female perspective but both are forms of being violated and certainly a man can feel the disgust of being violated and controled over even more so by someone of the same sex has himself. So no a male can not feel that nor could a woman feel it thru a males perspective but both can have mutal understanding and some similarities of disgust.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm not going to continue responding to you in this matter, Oaktree.  

You are entitled to your opinion and entitled to express it.  

It just happens that it is so far removed from mine that there is no middle ground to be found and if I carried on all that would be achieved is a useless argument.  I can normally negotiate some form of compromise on most subjects but not this one.


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## David43515 (Mar 16, 2011)

@Oaktree:It`s easy for us to look at the fight and see opportunities to leave, or to simply control our opponant. But we`re adults who train in martial arts and our thoughts aren`t clouded by the fact that we`rre in the middle of a fight. Asking a 13 yr old kid to be aware of all those things is, at best, unrealistic. Yes, I look at it and see the potential for serious, maybe even, lethal, injury. Most kids would look at it and see one kid picking another up and throwing him down. Not much different than Judo or Wrestling or kids rough-housing with other kids. A body slam on concrete, especially uneven contrete like that courtyard does seem to be a bit much. But you could argue the dangerous potential of punches to the head and face just as well. How many boxers die each year? How much pressure does it take for a puncher`s thumb to slip into an eyesocket and blind someone forever? I don`t know.I noticed a couple other things though. Someone was taping this to enjoy later. The bully had friends with him. Not just one, early on there are a couple other boys floating around watching. Who`s to say they wouldn`t have jumped in if the bigger kid had tried to stick to fist fighting? Who`s to say they haven`t in the past? We don`t know.In fact there was one large boy who follows the victim until an older girl chases him off. This was a multiple opponant situation. One thing we do know for sure is that once the little agressor was down, the victim left. He didn`t escalte the violence. He didn`t gloat. He didn`t do anything wrong. He did what most martial arts schools teach as gospel.Just for a moment lets say the worst happened. Let`s say little asshat landed on his melon and was crippled or killed. It would be a tragedy for everyone involved......but it would have been 100% avoidable if the little asshat had minded his own business. I`d be very sorry to see that hed had lost his life and his potential to do good in the world. But I`d still believe it was his own stupid fault.  Not long ago I read of a gas station owner in California who`s in his late 80`s. He uses a walker, is on an oxygen tank, and can hardly stand up on his own. But he goes into work every day. 3 times in the last 2 years people have come in and tried to rob him at gunpoint because he looks like an easy target. Each time the robbers have died at the business end of a shotgun. I assume the robbers leave behind families that love them and mourne their loss. But if they didn`t choose to start trouble they`d still be alive and well. There`s a lesson in all that somewhere. Hopefully the little bully learned his lesson with one jarring slam to the ground and the stupidity was knocked out of him. Maybe he won`t grow up thinking he can run around abusing people without ever facing any consequences. I sure hope so. If nothing else, at least he learned not to pick fights with someone twice his size. Even if that`s all he learned it`s an important lesson.


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## oaktree (Mar 16, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> I'm not going to continue responding to you in this matter, Oaktree.
> 
> You are entitled to your opinion and entitled to express it.
> 
> It just happens that it is so far removed from mine that there is no middle ground to be found and if I carried on all that would be achieved is a useless argument. I can normally negotiate some form of compromise on most subjects but not this one.


 
Thats fine sir. As long as we can discuss things in a calm polite manner its ok.
 I myself will be bowing out soon too.

I think this may be an issue where there is no middle ground and compromises.
 But not everyone can agree on everything. See you on other threads that may result in more agreeable issues.


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## oaktree (Mar 16, 2011)

I think I will have to bow out of this thread. 

 I will gladly read any replies to me if it is something that you really need me to answer please send me a PM.


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## K831 (Mar 16, 2011)

oaktree said:


> Which is why if a Teenager commits a crime resulting in death he may be charged in that Homicide. It does not matter if you don't know the laws its if you break them that matter. Just because I don't know all the statues of certain law does not mean I can say
> "well I did not know I could not do that your honor."


 
Yes it does. You have a skewed view of the legal definition of lethal force. First, it is subjective (as are most terms in the legal system, or at least the application of them). Im a bit surprised by your willingness to play both judge and jury by issuing your own definition of lethal force, as well as judge and jury as to the intent of the child being bullied. Lethal force is most commonly defined as the force which a person uses, causingor that a person knows, or should know, would create a substantial risk of causingdeath
For you to apply the term lethal force to this action means either you do not understand the term, or you are 1.) asserting that one child throwing another on the ground is likely to cause serious injury and death, that 2.) the child doing the throwing knew that it would cause serious injury and death and 3.) that he intended for it to cause serious injury and death. Im sorry, but that is way to many presumptions for me to get behind. Lastly, I dont think that slam is LIKELY to cause death. Could it? Yes, but so could, and has, a right cross. 







oaktree said:


> I am afraid tit for tat does not work in this case. Like I said earlier if someone punches you every day for 2 years you can not shoot him dead that woud be murder and most likely it would have been premeditated murder considering the length of time prior that may have lead you to shoot that person.



Again, your insistence in drawing a parallel between one child throwing a bully on the ground  and one adult shooting another adult in retaliation to a punch is surprising and frankly, silly. Additionally, if an adult hits me, and I can show cause that I felt my life (and in some states, property) were in danger, than yes I can shoot the attacker. As any cop or lawyer will tell you, your only statement after taking the life of another in self defense is I was afraid for my life. I want my lawyer. 






oaktree said:


> I say lethal because he had him in his grip to stop him from punching and he had the time to think about his actions or what to do he choose to slam him on the floor. That means he had intent and the intent was lethal. The kid was wobbling means there is a good chance he may have had a concussion.



 This is simply nonsensical. Im glad you thought he had time I the .5 seconds it took him to slam the kid to have a logical debate about the potential physical risks to his bully, and then decided consciously to go ahead and try to kill the bully. However, your thinking thats what happened isnt good enough. As to a concussion um so? Yes, they can be dangerous, but they happen all the time in most any sport. 




oaktree said:


> I have been bullied too I am sure everyone has at some point. You can be assertive and find ways to deal with your bully without resulting in lethal force or causing great bodily harm that may cause paralysis or death.



Broad generalizations, and again the assumption that 1.) this was lethal force and 2.) great bodily harm was done. Personally, the fact that no report of injuries to the bully have been revealed (to my knowledge) indicates there werent any .negating your argument anyways.



oaktree said:


> I also said if you have to fight then fight but use only the amount of force needed to end the conflict body slam on head is excessive.



He didnt slam him head first.  You can guarantee the exact move or technique that will end a fight? you must have an INCREDIBLE ability to read opponents. The fact that this kid walked away immediately upon realizing he ended the fight shows his intent and restraint. He did exactly what you accused him of failing to do. 




oaktree said:


> Replace Body slam with Gun and make your arguement.



I dont have to, because there was no gun, and the two are not even remotely equal. Besides that, your attempts at comparing the two are fallacious. 



oaktree said:


> Do you sympathize with the kids from Columbine and blame the people who bullied them
> or do you think they could have found other alternatives that did not involved killing 12 students.



I dont know enough about them to sympathize, but if they were bullied for years, then yes. You confuse sympathy with empathy, and also seem to think that because one human being can be sympathetic or empathetic to another that must mean they condone the behavior. Such a narrow view of things. Simply put, if a sexual deviant breaks into my house, with the intent to hurt my wife or child, in part because he was sexually abused and tortured his whole life.. then I will have sympathy for him while I put rounds through his brain. Defending oneself and family with lethal force, and not losing any sleep about it, does not mean one doesnt have sympathy or empathy, nor that one doesnt wish the world wasnt as violent as it is it simply means one is willing to defend themselves BECAUSE the world is violent. 





oaktree said:


> I am making a guess that if your child used lethal force than you feel its ok based on this quote? So for you then if you child was being bullied than you would be ok if she shot and killed her bullies because they were taking her self respect, self confidence and self esteem there for justifys lethal force?




 Here you go with these grossly fallacious arguments. The fact that you cannot seem to differentiate between a body slam, freestyle  wrestling throw etc and shooting AND killing someone is really quite unsettling. 



oaktree said:


> You expect your kids to stand up to bullies this gives me the impression expect meaning to me, if they don't then do this, you dont have high regard for them or are disappointed in them. It seem to me you are trying to teach your children self esteem but using the term "expect" which comes off as do and I love you don't and I think less of you really can hurt a child's self esteem.



 Hmmmm you make some very strange leaps in your thought process. I expect my kids to treat others kindly, I expect my kids to be honest, I expect my kids to work hard so, if they dont do those things you think that means I dont love them? Did you just make that up? Being disappointed in poor behavior does not mean parent dont love their children. Yes, I expect my children to stick up for others who can not do it for themselves and yes, if they participated in bullying, indirectly or directly, I would be disappointed, just I like I would be if they stole something from the corner store. To try and assert that that equates to a lack of love is again, simply fallacious.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 16, 2011)

oaktree said:


> I think I will have to bow out of this thread.
> 
> I will gladly read any replies to me if it is something that you really need me to answer please send me a PM.


 

While I do not agree entirely with your position, I thank you for expressing a different perspective. Your opinion is valued even if it is not shared, at least by me anyway.


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## Rayban (Mar 16, 2011)

Scenario:

Man taunts a lion for a very long time and each time he gets away before the lion can catch him.

On the last day, the lion catches and eats him.

Do you think he is a victim of a savage mauling?  Or an idiot for tempting fate way too often?

I use a lion because clearly, for the entire year, the larger (I don't like calling him a fat kid) student has the ability to completely out gun the smaller bully.  He either chose not to or couldn't because the bully ran away after goading a response.

The feeling of helplessness and depression (which is subjective to the individual) is one of the most powerful emotive forces ever.  It clouds judgment and inserts only one thought into your mind. "end the threat to stop the feelings".

3rd parties can always look in from the outside and make judgment calls not available to those involved.  Being there is a very very different and potent experience.  This is why I echo most other peoples remarks about understanding it when you've been through it.  Even though I had a very harrowing time in primary and high school, I will never understand it as close as those involved.


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## K831 (Mar 16, 2011)

I saw this posted elsewhere;

http://www.caseyheynes.com/a-tribute-to-a-gentle-giant/


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 18, 2011)

Apparently, the mother wants an apology.  The mother of the bully, that is.  Both kids were suspended from school for four days.

*http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/0...ly-body-slammed-video-demands-apology-victim/

*


> The mother of an Australian bully who's become an [COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=inherit ! important][COLOR=blue ! important][FONT=inherit ! important]Internet[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR] sensation for being body-slammed on video by one of his victims says she wants an apology.
> Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/0...d-video-demands-apology-victim/#ixzz1GwxNs36T​


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## CoryKS (Mar 18, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Apparently, the mother wants an apology. The mother of the bully, that is. Both kids were suspended from school for four days.
> 
> *http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/0...ly-body-slammed-video-demands-apology-victim/*


 
Sounds like she wants the apology because the video was released and the world sees her kid as a little **** more than she wants it for what happened to him.  

This is very telling:



> But defense attorney and former prosecutor Mark Eiglarsh said not suspending Heynes would have set a dangerous precedent.
> 
> "This isn't just an isolated incident. This now becomes law in the school. Every other kid now is free if they're bullied not to do as they're told to turn the other cheek and go to their teachers but to lift up another kid, the [COLOR=blue! important][COLOR=blue! important]bully[/COLOR][/COLOR], and slamming them to ground, risking paralysis or death," Eiglarsh told Fox News.


 
Yes, that would be horrible, wouldn't it?  Not.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 18, 2011)

The mother fails to realize that it was her son's friend who recorded the whole incident, not Casey.

I also shudder at the 'turn the other cheek' explanation.
I don't expect anyone to turn the other cheek. Noone should be expected to meekly turn the other cheek if they are being bullied. It may not be the best solution either. Retaliating can lead to escalation. But that should be the decision of the person who is being bullied.

This was going on for over a year. So the teachers knew, and didn't do anything. If they didn't know, then it is because they didn't want to know.
If this was not resolved by turning the other cheeck during an entire year, then it is safe to say that option didn't work. and perhaps bullies would think twice if they know that if they push hard enough, they will be body slammed into the concrete.


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## yak sao (Mar 18, 2011)

We are turning into a culture of wusses (spelling?)
Instead of teaching our boys to become men and stand up for themselves, we are teaching them to "go tell"....I for one am inspired by what the boy did by standing up for himself. There may be hope for us yet.

True, the big boy may not have responded with the safest response, as he was on concrete, with the ledge right there, etc....the thing is these are kids. and kids do things that aren't always the smartest: running with scissors, having shootouts with BB guns, jumpimg their bikes off ramps; things we've all done, and yet somehow the human race has survived.


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## yak sao (Mar 18, 2011)

And that whole turn the other cheek thing....that has nothing to do with defending yourself.
That whole passage in the bible is dealing with being insulted.
To slap someone on the face is to insult them, not do real physical harm. Jesus was not advocating standing there and taking a beating.


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## K831 (Mar 18, 2011)

yak sao said:


> We* haved turned* into a culture of wusses (spelling?)
> Instead of teaching our boys to become men and stand up for themselves, we are teaching them to "go tell"....I for one am inspired by what the boy did by standing up for himself. There may be hope for us yet.



Fixed it for ya!


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## Josh Oakley (Mar 19, 2011)

I probably SHOULD be condemning these acts and ranting about the failings of the public school system.

Instead I watched it, like, 10 times.

That was freaking HILLARIOUS!


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2011)

There could have been a misunderstanding.
The mother says she wants her son to apologise.
http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/wor...nds-apology-from-casey-the-punisher-0010597-1

Given how unreliable news sites are when it comes to sensational issues, it could actually be true that the original report was wrong. I know I would want my kids to formally apologise if they were the bully. If she indeed tried to raise her kids not to be bullies, that would seem more logical than demanging casey to apologise.

She could have said 'I want him to apologise' and the reporter ran with it, without checking who should apologise to whom.


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## Kittan Bachika (Mar 20, 2011)

Why do schools have the policy of having someone who acted in self defense from a bully get suspended also?


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 20, 2011)

I couldn't watch the vid but I believe that if you find yourself trading punches, you have made an error in judgment somewhere along the line. Yes, people can be bullies, but leaving the scene or avoiding that person is what needs to happen over letting it get to a point where someone gets hurt. 
Sean


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 20, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I couldn't watch the vid but I believe that if you find yourself trading punches, you have made an error in judgment somewhere along the line. Yes, people can be bullies, but leaving the scene or avoiding that person is what needs to happen over letting it get to a point where someone gets hurt.
> Sean



If this is about Casey, then I say that getting bullied and beaten for over a year means that 'running away / turning the other cheek' didn't help. I could be wrong of course, but I take it you have never been seriously bullied over a longer period of time? Your words may be true for specific scenarios. Aye. But for continuous bullying that just doesn't work and leads to many other problems, like self esteem issues, depression, and learning problems

That said, I can understand an initial suspension of a couple of days while the school figures out what went on, who did what etc. The more important question is what will happen when his the 4 days are up.


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## K831 (Mar 20, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I couldn't watch the vid but I believe that if you find yourself trading punches, you have made an error in judgment somewhere along the line. Yes, people can be bullies, but leaving the scene or avoiding that person is what needs to happen over letting it get to a point where someone gets hurt.
> Sean



Then you are letting someone else run your life by dictating where you are and when. By them simply being there, you have to go somewhere else? That doesn't work for me. Won't live my life avoiding others and leaving a place I want to be simply because a loud mouth or a bully is there.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 20, 2011)

K831 said:


> Then you are letting someone else run your life by dictating where you are and when. By them simply being there, you have to go somewhere else? That doesn't work for me. Won't live my life avoiding others and leaving a place I want to be simply because a loud mouth or a bully is there.


Then you too would get suspended. Hey, something quite similar happened to me when I was in the 6th grade, and I punched him as hard as I could. Man that kid was mad, bloody but mad. They didn't suspend me; they knew what went down. Those were the days.
Sean


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## Kittan Bachika (Mar 20, 2011)

What if a kid can't run away? Then what? Do they just take a beating? What if they end up getting killed?


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## MA-Caver (Mar 21, 2011)

I would agree that it COULD be attributing to the problem if you make the decision to trade blows with someone wanting to inflict pain, intimidation, their will upon you. But as a victim of bullying all I know is, is that every time I fought back against a bully (win or lose) they left me the hell alone afterwards.

People who make policies like this one seems to me that they've never been on the receiving end of a bully's attention, or if they have it didn't phase them or it was a one time thing or that they simply walked/ran away and thus have it in their mind that THIS is the best ONLY way to handle bullies.

They've never been stalked by bullies, never had a bully lying in wait outside a classroom or in the restroom or along the stairway or any number of places to pounce upon them. Never had a bully ride the same bus and get off the same place as you do and chase you hard to try and beat you to your house ... because if they catch you OUTSIDE of school... then baby, it's ON! Never had a bully and his cronies corner you to where escape is just not possible. Never had a bully covertly taunt you in class, adding to the terror.

So what is a student to do... in order NOT to get suspended they're going to have to stand there and get their asses beat. Man up and take it, be a good citizen and tattle-tale, ignore it (the biggest joke of all). Reporting bullying is a good way to let the authorities of the school/work know that there IS a problem...

Sigh... it still doesn't help. What can help is this IMO.
Not suspending the victim after a through investigation of the incident (conducting it like a police investigation)... finding witnesses, using video (which A LOT of schools have now-a-days-- mine didn't). If the victim was truly defending themselves after all options are exhausted then suspension isn't going to help them.
It can help the child's self-esteem when they finally get fed-up and fight back and see that the bully was really nothing more than a real coward hiding under a facade of toughness. 
It can help the child develop a good sense of situational awareness rather than just bee-bopping their way from class to class and then get jumped and end up hurt.
It can help the child to learn to THINK fast on their feet. Bullies can be double talked out of their intended beatings, they can be intimidated back in turn, they can be eluded if you think one (or two) steps ahead of them (while fleeing looking for options), and so on...

A kid isn't going to learn that by going to the office and wah wah wah to the assistant principal about big johnny wanting to beat them up.

I had an opportunity to watch the interview with Casey (the big kid) ... and while he's probably feeling a bit overwhelmed by his new found notoriety, I still can't fault him for what he did... 
Consider this from a SD/MA view point...
 The BEST thing about this video is that it shows Casey  (the big kid), after dropping the punk ... walked away... he saw that the  fight was over and walked away... he could've stayed and started  wailing on the bully, kicking him while he was down, punching, whatever!  But no, he ended the crap quickly, decisively and then walked away from  it. He saw that it was over... that the bully wasn't going to be any more trouble. 
To me, that shows remarkable judgment on his part, remarkable for a boy his age. 
This is why I felt he shouldn't have been suspended. 
Those who made the decision need to take that into account. IMO.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 21, 2011)

They ran the full story on a documentary over here last night. They interviewed the kid involved. He had contemplated suicide 12 months ago, very sad story. Im glad he did what he did, Ive had enough of bullies. I dont condone fighting but if my kids get bullied and they fight back I will find it very hard to discipline them.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 21, 2011)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Why do schools have the policy of having someone who acted in self defense from a bully get suspended also?


 
Supposedly it discourages fighting, but i think that's boloney. The kids that get into fights tend to be the type that have problems at home and don't care about whether or not they get in trouble at school. Kids that need to protect themselves and are generally good kids don't like to cause trouble for themselves so they get picked on and let it continue.

I remember in jr. high and again in high school, I was challenged to fights by some thug kids, and I solved my problems through peer mediation, but I went to extreme lengths to avoid fighting, and some kids don't have that luxury.


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## tempus (Mar 21, 2011)

The bully got what he deserves.  I was bullied not 1 year, but years due to my size and my social habits *cough*, Dungeons and Dragons, *cough* (As my wife puts it I am a geek with muscles).  Now I am 40 and everyone thinks I was a high school jock because of my size.  The bullying ended junior year of high school when I sent a desk at a much larger guy and called him out.  Gym class was suppose to be the fight, but he never approached me and went about his business.  The bullying stopped after that.  So I turned the other cheek, went to teachers, sat in the front and what ended it was me standing up for myself.  If I had to reflect the TKD club I joined built up my self confidence for me to finally stand up for myself.

-Gary


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 22, 2011)

Ritchard the rat speaks up



> "He was like 'go to class' and stuff. And I didn't like it. And he pushed me and stuff and ran down to the front of the office and that's when I hit him," Ritchard said.
> 
> "I don't know why [I punched him] because I was just really pissed off at him ... giving me mouth."



Hmmm. Due to first hand experience, I can actually make reasonable guesses at body language in cases like this, and I really don't see Casey as someone who would push people around. He may have told him to go to class and leave him alone and tried to walk past him.

The fact that he was pissed off that someone was talking back really paint him as a) someone is not used to be talked back to and b) he saw it as cause for violence.



> Asked what he'd like to say to Casey, the 12-year-old said he did not realise that Casey had been a victim of bullying.
> 
> "Sorry that I picked on him and I didn't know that he'd been bullied his whole school life," he said. Ritchard said he would go and "tell the principal" if he had future problems with older students.
> 
> "I'll go to the office."



He didn't know. Hm... Perhaps. That doesn't make his actions better.
Casey's behavior screams out low self esteem, while his is alpha male. this may have been the first time he took on Casey but they both have been in that situation before.



> Ritchard said he had wanted to speak out "so they know my side as well as his".
> 
> Ritchard, who suffered a bruised leg after being body-slammed into the concrete, admitted he deserved the treatment he received.
> 
> "If I'd snapped my neck I could've died and got paralysed in a wheelchair," he said.After admitting that he had been a victim of bullying, Ritchard said his message for other bullies was to stop: "Don't bully because you end up getting hurt bad, maybe worse than me."



Interesting. This almost seems as if his change of heart did not come from empathy with the bullees, but from the realization that people being bullied might suddenly snap and piledrive the bully into the concrete.



> Asked if he would bully again, Ritchard laughed and said "most probably not".



Either he has come to terms with his public humiliation and takes it all in good spirit, or he mentally added 'at least not when people are looking'.


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## shesulsa (Mar 22, 2011)

When I talk to kids about getting bullied, I also talk to them about what can happen to you when you bully. 

I've gone so far as to punch a kid in the arm and ask, 'did that hurt?'  No.  Then I'll ask, 'what if I called you a name every day referring to the size of your feet or your ears and made fun of you in front of other people every single day? Would THAT hurt?'  Usually the reply is silence.

Point being is that words hurt.

This kid snapped, plain and simple.  While we all want to lambaste the bullying snot for being motivated to refrain further to avoid injury to himself ... _that's not necessarily a bad thing_.  Not a dying Tiny Tim could sway the heart of the misguided Scrooge ... but his conscious did. If it's the only way he would learn, then so be it.

Now, I'msure the victim will be needing to get some anger management and PTSD counseling.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 22, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Ritchard the rat speaks up
> Hmmm. Due to first hand experience, I can actually make reasonable guesses at body language in cases like this, and I really don't see Casey as someone who would push people around. He may have told him to go to class and leave him alone and tried to walk past him.
> 
> The fact that he was pissed off that someone was talking back really paint him as a) someone is not used to be talked back to and b) he saw it as cause for violence.
> ...



I saw the same interview... and it got me wondering... now it's a case of he said -- he said. So the truth of the matter may never be known. 

But I don't think that it was a case of alpha male but more of two betas just having a bad day. Watch the interview with Richard you can see that he is contrite, sorrowful and all of that... he is being vilified by the entire planet, that is not a good thing either. This is still just a kid. A punk kid like I said but still a kid and still deserving some understanding... particularly if his background is what the report says it is.

[yt]__IjcLVBBYc[/yt]

Two hard luck kids getting through a rough life just take it out on each other.

So basically what needs to be addressed here is not WHICH kid was wrong... but WHY they snapped... how long have they been under pressure and just how little of a thing can set them off. 

Remember the reasons Eric and Dylan had when they unleased themselves on Coloumbine, they were allegedly bullied as well.


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## shesulsa (Mar 22, 2011)

I'm not buying it.

When you look at the video, the little guy is repeatedly taunting - not just punching, taunting - the bigger kid.  If the little guy has been bullied before and has now become the bully, I can get that.  But in this instance, he *asked* for what he got.

I think bullies generally speak only one language - and until you speak it to them, they are not likely to get your message.


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## K831 (Mar 22, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> he is being vilified by the entire planet, that is not a good thing either. This is still just a kid. A punk kid like I said but still a kid and still deserving some understanding... particularly if his background is what the report says it is.
> 
> 
> 
> Remember the reasons Eric and Dylan had when they unleased themselves on Coloumbine, they were allegedly bullied as well.



I agree with this for the most part. The kid got what he deserved when he got his a$$ handed to him in front of everyone. Casey stuck up for himself, and, if he is left alone going forward, then it is done. I agree, being a bully at that age doesn't mean you should have your life ruined on a global scale for the rest of your life. 

I also believe that you can take quick, decisive violent action without losing empathy/sympathy. As I said in an earlier post, I recognize that someone who tries to commit violence on me or my family may well be doing so in part because of all manner of tragedy and pain in their life.. I am sympathetic to that and will remain so while ending the threat. 

I feel the same way about the Coloumbine kids you mentioned. I'm sure they were bullied for years, and its not surprising they got to the point they did... however, I would have shot them if I was there, with sympathy, but killed them none the less. I remember when their tapes and diaries came out, many people said no amount of bullying justifies killing someone. That's dumb, because when it comes right down to it, what "justifies" what, only really matters as it applies to the person taking the action. That's why many people should be more judicious in how they treat others...it might just get ugly.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 22, 2011)

K831 said:


> I agree with this for the most part. The kid got what he deserved when he got his a$$ handed to him in front of everyone. Casey stuck up for himself, and, if he is left alone going forward, then it is done. I agree, being a bully at that age doesn't mean you should have your life ruined on a global scale for the rest of your life.
> 
> I also believe that you can take quick, decisive violent action without losing empathy/sympathy. As I said in an earlier post, I recognize that someone who tries to commit violence on me or my family may well be doing so in part because of all manner of tragedy and pain in their life.. I am sympathetic to that and will remain so while ending the threat.
> 
> I feel the same way about the Coloumbine kids you mentioned. I'm sure they were bullied for years, and its not surprising they got to the point they did... however, I would have shot them if I was there, with sympathy, but killed them none the less. I remember when their tapes and diaries came out, many people said no amount of bullying justifies killing someone. That's dumb, because when it comes right down to it, what "justifies" what, only really matters as it applies to the person taking the action. That's why many people should be more judicious in how they treat others...it might just get ugly.


OH I absolutely agree here with you... whatever your problems ARE your problems... just don't make 'em mine because I got enough of my own, and if you want to take it out on me... well, allow me to reciprocate. 

Yet should the a level of violence be met equally? In the case of Coloumbine definitely, because dead is dead and that is what those two guys were wanting to have and be. 
But I've had people walk up to me, grab my shirt/coat and threaten all manner of hurt against my person. Often times I stood there and asked them to remove their hand off of me or suffer. Must've been intimidating enough (or a crazed look in my eyes behind a calm veneer face)... I'm of mind to allow a person (that I know) one hit so that I may call it self-defense, otherwise it's just bunch of tough guy rhetoric to me. It's been the extreme rare cases where someone actually (try) carried out what they said they would do to me. However; if I don't know you then you touch me at your peril.

These two kids only gotten global attention thanks to the internet and folks passing it on to the next exponentially. Otherwise we'd probably never heard about it. It does help raise questions and spark good discussions on the more honorable forums like MT :uhyeah: 

I hope things will get better for the two of them. Irony may play out that these two become friends. 
We'll see.


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## Balrog (Mar 22, 2011)

Kittan Bachika said:


> Why do schools have the policy of having someone who acted in self defense from a bully get suspended also?


Because implementing a zero-tolerance policy absolves the school management and the school boards from having to actually think and make decisions and go on the record about incidents.  :soapbox:


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## Balrog (Mar 22, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Ritchard the rat speaks up...
> Either he has come to terms with his public humiliation and takes it all in good spirit, or he mentally added 'at least not when people are looking'.


I call ********.

He's saying all those things because he was stupid enough to be a bully; he got his sorry little *** whipped and exposed in public.  He's trying to save face.  I'll bet a dollar that he'll be back picking on someone within a month.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 22, 2011)

shesulsa said:


> I'm not buying it.
> 
> When you look at the video, the little guy is repeatedly taunting - not just punching, taunting - the bigger kid.  If the little guy has been bullied before and has now become the bully, I can get that.  But in this instance, he *asked* for what he got.
> 
> I think bullies generally speak only one language - and until you speak it to them, they are not likely to get your message.


You should buy it, to some extent. People with victim mentalities tend to see themselves as a victim, and they lash out at people to boot. What's not to buy?
Sean


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## Makalakumu (Mar 23, 2011)

I've been bullied in school.  I've stood up for myself.  And I've had my *** handed to me in a fight.

That said, I watched the slam and my first thought was, whoa, kid almost broke that other kid's neck.  That's a big deal, no matter how you slice it.  

With that in mind, consider the value of the "do" martial arts.  Most the deadly techniques have been taken out so that they can be practiced as a sport and not cause serious injury.  Judo is a great example of this.  I took this art when I was in middle school and I didn't get bullied very much because bullies would end up on their asses.  They had to get a couple of friends to do the job.  The same goes with karate.  

After training with the authentic application for karate kata and after taking jujutsu and seeing the damage that can be done with certain techniques, I can't look at this video without giving some credit to the old masters who initially changed the arts to make them more appropriate for children.  I think they understood that there was a time and a place for children to defend themselves and they also wanted them to be able to do it so that offenders got a second chance.  

They are kids, they don't deserve to die.  

Perhaps this attitude comes from a time when violence was much more common and the results of violence were more visible.  I don't know.  I do know, that as a parent, I would want my children to defend themselves and not put the other person's life at risk needlessly.  

Another lesson to draw from this is that the next time people want to bash "watered down" martial arts, well, this video is a good reason to water down an art.  It's the responsible thing to do when we are dealing with kids.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 23, 2011)

I agree with not teaching young kids some of the more nastier stuff, like onikudaki or ganseki nage. Onikudaki performed correctly with full power on a person is like tearing a wing off a chicken. And Ganseki was designed to pile drive someone into the ground, head first.

I am teaching my kids basic self techniques. And especially my youngest (3 years) likes boxing and kicking. Kids should be able to defend themselves, yet otoh kids will also get into fights when they are kids. My youngest has a brawl with one of the other kids in kindergarten every day, as some kids are wont to do. She is a head shorter than average, and I have told her several times that if someone hits her, she can hit back.

Among kids this type of thing is harmless as long as no bullying is going on. If both kids are at the same level, I am not too worried. In that context, I don't want any nasty stuff because that can leave permanent damage. This is why in Genbukan, kids are taught jujutsu instead of ninpo, and their curriculum consists of the basics that everyone needs, without some of the nastier stuff. They only get the complete teachings from age 14 or so.


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## oaktree (Mar 23, 2011)

I was given a negative rep. 


> Dumbest pile of crap I have read, you reason like as well as a newborn tomato plant.. lame


 
I am ok if you disagree with my opinion at least be respectful in addressing it. 
 Also the person who gave me a negative rep can you at least say your name it comes off kinda of cowardly to use ad hominem and then lurk back in the shadows.


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## shesulsa (Mar 23, 2011)

oaktree said:


> I was given a negative rep.
> 
> 
> I am ok if you disagree with my opinion at least be respectful in addressing it.
> Also the person who gave me a negative rep can you at least say your name it comes off kinda of cowardly to use ad hominem and then lurk back in the shadows.



Just so you know - all commentary, all written words on this site are subject to the rules for conduct.  If you find any comments sent to you in any way - be it by rep comment, private message, visitor message or forum post - outside the guidelines of conduct here (and this might be) you should report it to a staff member right away.  That would be anyone with a badge that says MOD, Sr. MOD, Supermod, Assist. Admin. or Administrator.

Personal insults are not allowed.


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## dancingalone (Mar 23, 2011)

Balrog said:


> Because implementing a zero-tolerance policy absolves the school management and the school boards from having to actually think and make decisions and go on the record about incidents.  :soapbox:




I would further add that much of the time these policies are meant to protect the school from legal and criminal proceedings.  They are not written for the benefit of the children.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 23, 2011)

oaktree said:


> I was given a negative rep.
> 
> 
> I am ok if you disagree with my opinion at least be respectful in addressing it.
> Also the person who gave me a negative rep can you at least say your name it comes off kinda of cowardly to use ad hominem and then lurk back in the shadows.


Happens to me all the time.


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## shesulsa (Mar 24, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> You should buy it, to some extent. People with victim mentalities tend to see themselves as a victim, and they lash out at people to boot. What's not to buy?
> Sean



I am aware of the victim mentality ... and if this kid was bullied previously, he has certainly come to another unhealthy point and the way he *taunted* and *taunted* and *taunted* and played to the camera tells me a different story.  And even if it can still be argued that he might have been a victim previously, his entire message to people who would bully others was that if they do they might get hurt like him.

Not that it's wrong and that he's been on both sides, etcetera, but that you might get hurt if you bully someone.

That last statement is why I don't buy it - coming from *him* I *don't* buy it.


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