# Rooting and Bad Weight Distribution



## wingchun100 (Sep 16, 2016)

Hey folks,

For years now, rooting has been my enemy. I can feel this problem the most when I am doing the pivoting punches at the end of Chum Kiu. It feels like instead of my weight being centered in the foot, it is rocking back into my heel. This makes it VERY easy to uproot me and, in turn, makes it hard for me to uproot others.

Can someone please give me some advice on how to break this habit?


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## anerlich (Sep 16, 2016)

My Chum Kil, and for that matter my pivoting, seems different from yours, but:

Try to find a partner drill where your partner is trying to unbalance you while you are working this particular footwork.

More generally, chi sao with stepping, some form of push hands training, or stand up wrestling where you're both trying to unbalance or throw each other will really help you develop a strong base.


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## yak sao (Sep 16, 2016)

What is your weight distribution when you're pivoting?

I'm our lineage we have a back weighted stance. To keep the weight of the body going straight down into the rear foot without being rocked back on our heel, we adduct the knees.
By doing this this allows our front foot though unweighted to act as a brake to keep our body from toppling backwards.


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## KPM (Sep 16, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> For years now, rooting has been my enemy. I can feel this problem the most when I am doing the pivoting punches at the end of Chum Kiu. It feels like instead of my weight being centered in the foot, it is rocking back into my heel. This makes it VERY easy to uproot me and, in turn, makes it hard for me to uproot others.
> 
> Can someone please give me some advice on how to break this habit?



Very simple.  Don't pivot on the heels!  Pivot on the K1 point and sink your weight by bending your knees more and directing your center of gravity towards a spot about 6 to 8 inches out in front of you when you are pivoting.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 17, 2016)

KPM said:


> Very simple.  Don't pivot on the heels!  Pivot on the K1 point and sink your weight by bending your knees more and directing your center of gravity towards a spot about 6 to 8 inches out in front of you when you are pivoting.



Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately, just one part of it escapes me. That would be "K1." I am not sure what that means.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 17, 2016)




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## mograph (Sep 17, 2016)

Submitted for the group's approval:

if they can push you back, shift dantien forward.
if they can pull you forward, shift dantien back.
if you feel you're close to balance, sink dantien.
(Dantien is, _basically_, center of gravity.)


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## KPM (Sep 17, 2016)

^^^^^^ K1 is "kidney 1" or the first point on the kidney channel in acupuncture.  Also called "bubbling spring" in Chinese.  For Wing Chun purposes it means pivoting on the center of the foot about an inch behind the ball of the foot.  You can actually "grip" the ground somewhat with your toes when doing this, which makes you very stable during the pivot.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2016)

Butt position?


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## anerlich (Sep 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Butt position?



Mine's behind me, between my back and my legs. Can't speaak for anyone else.  j/k

Seriously, good point. Skeletal alignment ("structure") is important for transmitting and absorbing force. But should be tucked in, though you can take structure to finer and finer levels of detail. Ties in with what mograph said as well.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 18, 2016)

I must be losing all my alignment during the pivot because today I went to class, and the guy I was doing chi sao with said I felt rooted and strong to him. So it must mean I need to work on maintaining my composure when I turn. At least, that is what the problem seems to be to me.


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## wckf92 (Sep 18, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I must be losing all my alignment during the pivot because today I went to class, and the guy I was doing chi sao with said I felt rooted and strong to him. So it must mean I need to work on maintaining my composure when I turn. At least, that is what the problem seems to be to me.



Have you been training in WC very long or?


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## wingchun100 (Sep 18, 2016)

anerlich said:


> Mine's behind me, between my back and my legs. Can't speaak for anyone else.  j/k
> 
> Seriously, good point. Skeletal alignment ("structure") is important for transmitting and absorbing force. But should be tucked in, though you can take structure to finer and finer levels of detail. Ties in with what mograph said as well.



Yep. Most people have to work on being loose and ready to respond to the pressure being applied. I have always had a very light touch in chi sao. We ALL have our own weak areas to work on, no matter how long we have been training. Getting body alignment right happens to be mine.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 20, 2016)

A couple of thoughts that may or may not resonate with you. 

1) Do some training on one foot. Si Nim Tao on one foot is good training. Last night, I had my students tossing a medicine ball back and forth while on one foot. When you have both feet on the ground you can distribute your weight in odd ways and rock yourself onto your heels and things, like you say. When you're on a single foot, you can not. I'm not advocating fighting on one foot, but it is a good training method for people who are working through what you describe.

2) If forcing your rooting is problematic for you, try thinking about "allowing" it. Engaging muscles groups can help, but at the same time, done improperly they can pull out of your ground just as easily. Gravity will naturally pull you into the ground and if your structure is good and your weight is properly distributed, that gravity will pull you down into your stance. Are your current efforts fighting that gravity? Spend some time just trying to get out of the way of that natural draw toward the ground and see if it helps.

Then have someone who you do Chi Sao with or otherwise do aggressive things to you and see if you can sustain that relaxed draw into your good, rooted stance.

Just suggestions, of course, take them or leave them. These are things that helped me and things that I use with my students.


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## Marnetmar (Sep 20, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I must be losing all my alignment during the pivot because today I went to class, and the guy I was doing chi sao with said I felt rooted and strong to him. So it must mean I need to work on maintaining my composure when I turn. At least, that is what the problem seems to be to me.



Are you keeping a head-over-hips-over-feet structure when you turn?


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## Cephalopod (Sep 20, 2016)

ShortBridge said:


> 2) If forcing your rooting is problematic for you, try thinking about "allowing" it. Engaging muscles groups can help, but at the same time, done improperly they can pull out of your ground just as easily. Gravity will naturally pull you into the ground and if your structure is good and your weight is properly distributed, that gravity will pull you down into your stance. Are your current efforts fighting that gravity? Spend some time just trying to get out of the way of that natural draw toward the ground and see if it helps.



I like this.
My stability got much better when I started imagining my legs pressing into the ground with the same live springiness that my arms use as they seek my opponents center in chisao. Flexing and locking my quads and hams only burned energy and made me slower to respond to, and absorb, changes in pressure.


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## drop bear (Sep 21, 2016)

There is a kids game where you have to stand feet parallel. With your palms on their palms and knock them over a step by either pushing them back or suckering them in to pushing forwards to hard. 

It would be a good stance trainer.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 21, 2016)

I think I am not sinking as deep into my stance as I thought. I have always struggled with stance. I have always been good at the techniques themselves and having a light touch during chi sao, but getting the whole body connected so my mechanics generate the right amount of power? Meh.

Still working on it.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 21, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I think I am not sinking as deep into my stance as I thought. I have always struggled with stance. I have always been good at the techniques themselves and having a light touch during chi sao, but getting the whole body connected so my mechanics generate the right amount of power? Meh.
> 
> Still working on it.



Honestly this is very common. Most videos I see of people doing Wing Chun and more than 1/2 of the players I meet have worked very hard on fast hands, but neglected their stance and rooting. 

It's a good thing to recognize in yourself and train through.


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## Vajramusti (Sep 21, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


>


-------------------------------------------------

FWIW- I dont turn on K! points- nor did Ip Man.Wong Shon Leung, Ho Kam Ming, Fong chi wing.


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## geezer (Sep 21, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> FWIW- I dont turn on K! points- nor did Ip Man.Wong Shon Leung, Ho Kam Ming, Fong chi wing.



Some of Ip Man's students did turn on "the center of the foot" (which sounds like what KPM means when he uses the term "K-1"), and worked very hard to perfect that method. Did they get that method from Grandmaster Ip? I don't know. At any rate, that method does exist in the Ip Man lineage.


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## guy b (Sep 21, 2016)

geezer said:


> Some of Ip Man's students did turn on "the center of the foot" (which sounds like what KPM means when he uses the term "K-1"), and worked very hard to perfect that method. Did they get that method from Grandmaster Ip? I don't know. At any rate, that method does exist in the Ip Man lineage.



Sounds like a classic case of misunderstanding and propagating that misunderstading into the future


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 21, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> FWIW- I dont turn on K! points- nor did Ip Man.Wong Shon Leung, Ho Kam Ming, Fong chi wing.



Nobody does, that is where you root however. The question was what is the K1 point and I posted the picture


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## KPM (Sep 21, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I think I am not sinking as deep into my stance as I thought. I have always struggled with stance. I have always been good at the techniques themselves and having a light touch during chi sao, but getting the whole body connected so my mechanics generate the right amount of power? Meh.
> 
> Still working on it.



Steve, not everyone will agree with me.  But this is how I see if from a biomechanical perspective.  If you are pivoting on the heels, it is harder to sink your weight forward so that your balance is maintained.  You have to keep a given percentage of your weight further back simply to off-load the front part of your foot so that your toes can "swing" when you pivot on the heels.  If you are pivoting further forward on the foot so that the heels are "swinging" rather than your toes, then you can keep your weight further forward, can sink lower, and can grip a bit better with your toes as you pivot.  All of these factors make your stance more rooted and stable during the pivot.  Again, this is just biomechanics.  No doubt some will refuse to see this.  But it is just a biomechanical fact nonetheless.


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## KPM (Sep 21, 2016)

guy b said:


> Sounds like a classic case of misunderstanding and propagating that misunderstading into the future


 
Go back and watch the old classic footage of Ip Man.  He most certainly was NOT pivoting on his heels in those videos!


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## KPM (Sep 21, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nobody does, that is where you root however. The question was what is the K1 point and I posted the picture



Leung Sheung Wing Chun, Leung Ting Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.....all pivot at a similar spot near the middle of the foot and not on the heels.


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## Jake104 (Sep 21, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> Hey folks,
> 
> For years now, rooting has been my enemy. I can feel this problem the most when I am doing the pivoting punches at the end of Chum Kiu. It feels like instead of my weight being centered in the foot, it is rocking back into my heel. This makes it VERY easy to uproot me and, in turn, makes it hard for me to uproot others.
> 
> Can someone please give me some advice on how to break this habit?


My advise and what has helped me is forward intent.. It's not just a buzz word or the act of going forward. It's a MINDSET. It has to alway be there with or without contact. The heels the balls of feet are all good, cause in reality you may not have the choice.. Trust me a good grappler can blow through both..So the forward intent mentality if practiced right will help keep you rooted..

I'll ad that you may want to use a wall or tree to pivot against.. this will help with both testing your root and practicing forward intent.

My first Sifu gave a great analogy of weight distribution.. He said it's like walking. If someone told you you had to have this amount of weight on this foot or you had to only use your heel or toes. You wouldn't of learned how to walk right. Walking is a constant transition of weight and balance. So shifting or moving in WC should be the same. By the way I first learned to pivot using heel toe heel toe.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 22, 2016)

Jake104 said:


> My advise and what has helped me is forward intent.. It's not just a buzz word or the act of going forward. It's a MINDSET. It has to alway be there with or without contact. The heels the balls of feet are all good, cause in reality you may not have the choice.. Trust me a good grappler can blow through both..So the forward intent mentality if practiced right will help keep you rooted..
> 
> I'll ad that you may want to use a wall or tree to pivot against.. this will help with both testing your root and practicing forward intent.
> 
> My first Sifu gave a great analogy of weight distribution.. He said it's like walking. If someone told you you had to have this amount of weight on this foot or you had to only use your heel or toes. You wouldn't of learned how to walk right. Walking is a constant transition of weight and balance. So shifting or moving in WC should be the same. By the way I first learned to pivot using heel toe heel toe.


 

How would I use the wall or tree to pivot against? I am sorry if that is a "dumb" question, but I am having trouble visualizing what you mean.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 22, 2016)

I think that I am more out of touch now than when I started this thread.

I guess that, just like with anything I am doing wrong, I will simply have to make a conscious effort to distribute my weight better...until it becomes an automatic thing.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 22, 2016)

KPM said:


> Leung Sheung Wing Chun, Leung Ting Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.....all pivot at a similar spot near the middle of the foot and not on the heels.



I never said, or even implied, pivot on the heal, and near the Yongquan is not the Yongquan


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## Vajramusti (Sep 22, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> I never said, or even implied, pivot on the heal, and near the Yongquan is not the Yongquan





Correct


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## Vajramusti (Sep 22, 2016)

KPM said:


> Leung Sheung Wing Chun, Leung Ting Wing Chun, Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun, Sum Nun/Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun.....all pivot at a similar spot near the middle of the foot and not on the heels.




sure- so what


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## wingchun100 (Sep 22, 2016)

I was just browsing a Facebook group called Wing Chun Forum, which featured this exact same problem of where to pivot. The original poster asked about pivoting on the heels, and someone gave him a response that made the light go on in my head. They said, "Pivot with your hips. The feet will follow."

I stood up, got into my stance, and put this practice into use. I thought about my hips instead of my feet, and wouldn't you know it? It already feels like I am improving! Maybe not everyone will agree with it, but I'll be damned if I don't notice a difference THAT quickly!


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## Vajramusti (Sep 22, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> I was just browsing a Facebook group called Wing Chun Forum, which featured this exact same problem of where to pivot. The original poster asked about pivoting on the heels, and someone gave him a response that made the light go on in my head. They said, "Pivot with your hips. The feet will follow."
> 
> I stood up, got into my stance, and put this practice into use. I thought about my hips instead of my feet, and wouldn't you know it? It already feels like I am improving! Maybe not everyone will agree with it, but I'll be damned if I don't notice a difference THAT quickly!


---------------------------------------
FWIW-don't depend on internet and videos' Hunt for a good sifu-isn't easy.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 22, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------
> FWIW-don't depend on internet and videos' Hunt for a good sifu-isn't easy.


 
I already have a good Sifu, but he is not always available. With that in mind, I still don't follow what anyone says blindly, whether they are a Sifu or not. I tested it out and noticed an immediate improvement. I will run it by Sifu when I see him again, but for now it seems to be the answer I needed.


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## Cephalopod (Sep 22, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> ... "Pivot with your hips. The feet will follow."
> 
> I stood up, got into my stance, and put this practice into use. I thought about my hips instead of my feet, and wouldn't you know it? It already feels like I am improving! Maybe not everyone will agree with it, but I'll be damned if I don't notice a difference THAT quickly!



Right on!
That's exactly right. Your hips turn and, if your legs remain springy, your feet will get dragged behind as much as they need to. This also prevents you from opening your front foot more than necessary and exposing your shin and groin, which beginners will often do if they think about initiating the turn with the feet.

With regard to the pivot point being the heel or the middle foot:

From my perspective, balance is most critical is when there is a clash between me and my opponent. The resulting force between us will invariably drive my weight back toward my heels. The pivot is used to allow that force (in that instant) to go by me, to bypass the force. it is the force from my opponent that drives the pivot.

All this to say that I want to be very comfortable turning on my heels because that is where the weight is going to be when I really need to turn. Hence, I do chum kiu with heel pivots.

Once, my sifu told us to train with our weight right at the back of our heels where it felt like we were about to tip over. I thought that was very bizarre until I understood the exercise: Don't panic, just absorb by sinking and turning.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 22, 2016)

Cephalopod said:


> Right on!
> That's exactly right. Your hips turn and, if your legs remain springy, your feet will get dragged behind as much as they need to. This also prevents you from opening your front foot more than necessary and exposing your shin and groin, which beginners will often do if they think about initiating the turn with the feet.
> 
> With regard to the pivot point being the heel or the middle foot:
> ...


 

The other flaw in my body mechanics is sinking my weight down. Even though wing chun has a high stance, I am TOO high. But the solution to that is realizing it and making a conscious effort to sink until it becomes natural.


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## Jake104 (Sep 22, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> How would I use the wall or tree to pivot against? I am sorry if that is a "dumb" question, but I am having trouble visualizing what you mean.


Just get in your ygkym and in your Wing Chun structure (elbows in) press on a fixed object. If you get rebound adjust until you can get that energy into the ground. Then start to pivot or move in general. I use it to pivot angle switch stances etc.. You don't want to lean though...I have found when I don't have a partner, I try to use unconventional ways of training.. Seems to work for me.


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## geezer (Sep 22, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> sure- so what



I think KPM's point is that these are highly competent people, so there is clearly more than one way to effectively accomplish stance turning.


Jake104 said:


> Just get in your ygkym and in your Wing Chun structure (elbows in) press on a fixed object. If you get rebound adjust until you can get that energy into the ground. Then start to pivot or move in general. I use it to pivot angle switch stances etc.. You don't want to lean though...I have found when I don't have a partner, I try to use unconventional ways of training.. Seems to work for me.



 Not such a strange concept. After all, the dummy is basically a tree!


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## Jake104 (Sep 22, 2016)

Steve you are good example of pivoting. You have injuries that might not allow you to pivot one particular way? So for some to say it has to be done a certain way....where does that leave you? I've trained with you and we have discussed this.. You've had to adapt right? I now pivot in away that keeps me rooted. I really don't pay much attention to it much anymore..But I think we originally learned In a very similar way. So that's why I say you have to ad pressure to really FEEL what works.

I do like the springing Dummie also. There is something to those that I like. Especially for class clinch work..


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## Vajramusti (Sep 22, 2016)

geezer said:


> I think KPM's point is that these are highly competent people, so there is clearly more than one way to effectively accomplish stance turning.
> 
> 
> Not such a strange concept. After all, the dummy is basically a tree!


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing chun world is full of different ways of doing things. Ok by me


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## Jake104 (Sep 22, 2016)

I agree. I respect all. Well most.. 
I do respect you and Sifu Fongs approach!


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## KPM (Sep 22, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> I never said, or even implied, pivot on the heal, and near the Yongquan is not the Yongquan



Referencing the K1 point is pretty darn close, and people that know a little about acupuncture will immediately recognize the reference, and those that don't can do a quick google search (as you did) to get a nice visual reference.  So if you weren't referring to pivoting on the heels, nor near the K1 point, just exactly what were you talking about?


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## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

What do you tend to be doing when pivoting KPM?


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## KPM (Sep 22, 2016)

guy b said:


> What do you tend to be doing when pivoting KPM?


 
Pivoting.  What else?   What are you doing?  I'm not walking into another one of your "guess what I'm thinking so I can jump on you when you answer" kind of threads.


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## guy b (Sep 22, 2016)

KPM said:


> Pivoting.  What else?   What are you doing?  I'm not walking into another one of your "guess what I'm thinking so I can jump on you when you answer" kind of threads.



Why are you pivoting?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2016)

KPM said:


> Referencing the K1 point is pretty darn close, and people that know a little about acupuncture will immediately recognize the reference, and those that don't can do a quick google search (as you did) to get a nice visual reference.  So if you weren't referring to pivoting on the heels, nor near the K1 point, just exactly what were you talking about?



My wife is a traditional Chinese medical doctor from China and has been for many years..... I have studied Internal Chinese martial arts and qigong for over 20 years I know what the Yongquan point is without a google search.

As for what I was talking about; if you bothered to read the previous posts you would see post #5 and would have seen wingchun100 asked



> Thanks for the tips! Unfortunately, just one part of it escapes me. *That would be "K1." I am not sure what that means.*



I provided a picture to answer the question

As for your assumption about my intention to show pivoting you are just plain wrong. No one pivots on the Yongquan, it is where you root, and pivoting near the Yongquan is not the Yngquan. As for heel pivoting, not a common practice either.


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## KPM (Sep 23, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> As for heel pivoting, not a common practice either.



As I said, K1 is close enough for most people to have a reference.  And in Pin Sun, we are taught to pivot at the K1 point as closely as we can.  So what do you see as the common practice for pivoting?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2016)

KPM said:


> As I said, K1 is close enough for most people to have a reference.


 
Not for me, sorry



KPM said:


> And in Pin Sun, we are taught to pivot at the K1 point as closely as we can.  So what do you see as the common practice for pivoting?



Pivoting depends on why you are pivoting and what you are trying to do as it applies to energy coming in or going out. Wing Chun, JKD, Taijiquan, XIngyiquan, Baguazhang all handle things differently, and admittedly my Wing Chun and JKD Backgrounds are light compared to the other 3, but a pivot on the K1 would be hard under duress. This is likely where and why William CC Chen refer to the 3 nails







It makes pivoting easier to understand. And there are reasons to pivot on the heel and the other 2 nails,if  you are talking Bagua, Xingyi and Taijiquan, but mostly you will find pivoting easiest a bit in front of the yongchuan (K1). But a bit in front is not the K1, it is a bit in front of the K1


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## KPM (Sep 23, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Not for me, sorry
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What you are showing is not Wing Chun pivoting, and it sounds like you don't really do much Wing Chun.  Hence why we have not been talking about the same thing.   A pivot at K1 one is much more stable under duress than a pivot on the heel.  Again, it doesn't seem like you have Wing Chun-specific pivoting in mind.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2016)

ok


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## Vajramusti (Sep 23, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> My wife is a traditional Chinese medical doctor from China and has been for many years..... I have studied Internal Chinese martial arts and qigong for over 20 years I know what the Yongquan point is without a google search.
> 
> As for what I was talking about; if you bothered to read the previous posts you would see post #5 and would have seen wingchun100 asked
> 
> ...


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know a very good acupuncturist-an ex associate professor from Tian jin China-he would agree with you on Ki. As fas as being "near K1- what does that have to with Ki/


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## KPM (Sep 23, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I know a very good acupuncturist-an ex associate professor from Tian jin China-he would agree with you on Ki. As fas as being "near K1- what does that have to with Ki/



I could say "the pivot point is at the middle of the foot just front of center but not as far forward as the ball of the foot."  Or I could just say it is at K1 (close enough) and people can see it on a diagram as was posted here.  For what its worth, I trained in and practice acupuncture myself.  But so what?  And I never posted  "Ki".  That was someone else's mis-type, not mine.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2016)

KPM said:


> For what its worth, I trained in and practice acupuncture myself.  .



Seriously doubt the level of training and experience is remotely close to my wife training and experience...... but that is neither here nor there on this topic.... I maintain that....near the K1 is not the K1... there is no close enough... it either is..or it isn't...... I'm out of this....have a nice day


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 23, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> I know a very good acupuncturist-an ex associate professor from Tian jin China-he would agree with you on Ki. As fas as being "near K1- what does that have to with Ki/



If I typed Ki it was a typographical error, my apologies....It should have been K1(K-One).

However if you follow Dr Yang o rooting there is a rooting training he is supposed to project Qi from the K1 into the ground...Whether it works or not as far as projecting qi goes, I have no idea, but the visualization does produce a strong root


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## anerlich (Sep 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> Pivoting.  What else?   What are you doing?  I'm not walking into another one of your "guess what I'm thinking so I can jump on you when you answer" kind of threads.



He does that, but he is hardly the only one.

The OP didn't actually say he pivoted in his heels, FWIW. Just that he felt his weight rocking back into them when he pivoted.

However many microns either side of K1 you might pivot probably isn't all that relevant.


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## drop bear (Sep 24, 2016)

So you are not on the balls of your feet?


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## anerlich (Sep 24, 2016)

Me? I'm sitting in a chair at a desk in front of a laptop.


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## KPM (Sep 24, 2016)

drop bear said:


> So you are not on the balls of your feet?



No, definitely not on the balls of the feet.  That is why it is easier to reference K1 (since it IS close to that spot)....so people clearly see that it is NOT on the balls of the feet!


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## KPM (Sep 24, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Seriously doubt the level of training and experience is remotely close to my wife training and experience\



Hey, you and Joy were the ones that seemed to think that acupuncture expertise had anything to do with this discussion, not me.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> Hey, you and Joy were the ones that seemed to think that acupuncture expertise had anything to do with this discussion, not me.



You like to make assumptions don't you, I never said it was important, your last assumption made it necessary for me to let you know that I know where the Yongchuan was without looking it up, that is where the acupuncture came in as well as my over 20 years in CIMA, which you seemed to ignore. 

But to stop your attempt to redirect the post away from the point of my posts and your misconception that close to the K1 is the K1...let me bring it back to point...... the K1 is the K1 and you are the one saying that you pivot near the K1 and claiming that it is close enough to be the K1.... and it isn't.

You can pivot wherever you like, I do not really care nor and I telling you that you are right or wrong to pivot there. I am however telling you that to say that near the K1 is the K1 is wrong.


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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

anerlich said:


> He does that, but he is hardly the only on.



The reason for asking KPM what he is doing when pivoting is that neutral questions draw out understanding if it is there, lack of understanding if not. I don't have any wish to get into an entrenched argument


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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> You like to make assumptions don't you, I never said it was important, your last assumption made it necessary for me to let you know that I know where the Yongchuan was without looking it up, that is where the acupuncture came in as well as my over 20 years in CIMA, which you seemed to ignore.
> 
> But to stop your attempt to redirect the post away from the point of my posts and your misconception that close to the K1 is the K1...let me bring it back to point...... the K1 is the K1 and you are the one saying that you pivot near the K1 and claiming that it is close enough to be the K1.... and it isn't.
> 
> You can pivot wherever you like, I do not really care nor and I telling you that you are right or wrong to pivot there. I am however telling you that to say that near the K1 is the K1 is wrong.



FWIW, I have always found your posts well reasoned and knowledgeable. 

YM VT pivots in front of the heel, the third nail in your picture. The reason can be worked out if you consider what is generally the reason for pivoting in the system. This is not to say that the system advocates walking around on the heels, that it is back weighted, or any of the other trivial objections to heel pivoting. It is what it is because of the way it works as a system.


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## KPM (Sep 24, 2016)

_You like to make assumptions don't you, I never said it was important, your last assumption made it necessary for me to let you know that I know where the Yongchuan was without looking it up, that is where the acupuncture came in as well as my over 20 years in CIMA, which you seemed to ignore_.

---Well, my apologies then.  I didn't mean anything personal.  I was simply pointing out that ANYONE could look up K1 to get a visual reference.  Sorry if assuming that is what you did (since I know nothing about you) was offensive to you. 

_But to stop your attempt to redirect the post away from the point of my posts and your misconception that close to the K1 is the K1...let me bring it back to point...... the K1 is the K1 and you are the one saying that you pivot near the K1 and claiming that it is close enough to be the K1.... and it isn't._

---If you are trying to stick an acupuncture needle in it, then yes, I agree.  But if you are simply trying to give someone a reference point to increase communication, then it is indeed "close enough."  I don't know why you are arguing this point.  It isn't worth arguing about.


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## guy b (Sep 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> If you are trying to stick an acupuncture needle in it, then yes, I agree.  But if you are simply trying to give someone a reference point to increase communication, then it is indeed "close enough."  I don't know why you are arguing this point.  It isn't worth arguing about.



Do you pivot on the K1 or somewhere else?


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## Vajramusti (Sep 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> Hey, you and Joy were the ones that seemed to think that acupuncture expertise had anything to do with this discussion, not me.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
mispresenting my position., I did not maintain that acupuncture is related to stance.ead carefully.


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## KPM (Sep 24, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> mispresenting my position., I did not maintain that acupuncture is related to stance.ead carefully.



I did read carefully.  But perhaps you did not.  Both you and Xue referenced people that do acupuncture, which had absolutely no bearing on the discussion.  So I pointed out that I also do acupuncture, even though it has no bearing on this discussion.  Then Xue felt the need to do the "one-upmanship" thing and point out that I couldn't possibly know acupuncture better then his wife!  Which also had no bearing on this discussion.  Again, I'm not the one that brought up acupuncture as part of the discussion on pivoting in Wing Chun.  You and Xue did that.  Please go back and read carefully.


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## KPM (Sep 24, 2016)

guy b said:


> Do you pivot on the K1 or somewhere else?


I've already answered that question. In this very thread.  Are you not paying attention?


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2016)

KPM said:


> I did read carefully.  But perhaps you did not.  Both you and Xue referenced people that do acupuncture, which had absolutely no bearing on the discussion.  So I pointed out that I also do acupuncture, even though it has no bearing on this discussion.  Then Xue felt the need to do the "one-upmanship" thing and point out that I couldn't possibly know acupuncture better then his wife!  Which also had no bearing on this discussion.  Again, I'm not the one that brought up acupuncture as part of the discussion on pivoting in Wing Chun.  You and Xue did that.  Please go back and read carefully.



you have wasted enough of my time, you have a nice day


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## Herbie (Sep 24, 2016)

Thanks, guys.  Take home lesson for me, being a newbie to this forum: no need to go past about page 2 on any given thread.
Y'all have fun.  Remember to get up and walk around at least once per hour, to keep your circulation going.  And make sure your monitor is at the right height so you don't get neck pain.
Kirk out.


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## drop bear (Sep 25, 2016)

KPM said:


> No, definitely not on the balls of the feet.  That is why it is easier to reference K1 (since it IS close to that spot)....so people clearly see that it is NOT on the balls of the feet!



Fair enough. If you do go on to the balls of your feet and then pivot. You either have good rooting or you fall over. 

It is kind of cool.  Alighn everything and it works.


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## wingchun100 (Sep 26, 2016)

Herbie said:


> Thanks, guys.  Take home lesson for me, being a newbie to this forum: no need to go past about page 2 on any given thread.
> Y'all have fun.  Remember to get up and walk around at least once per hour, to keep your circulation going.  And make sure your monitor is at the right height so you don't get neck pain.
> Kirk out.


 

You learn fast.


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## Argus (Oct 13, 2016)

Hi. I realize this is an old thread, but as I also trained in the Yip Ching lineage for some time, and experienced the same thing as you, I have some thoughts on this:

The way I was taught Chum Kiu was to shift nearly 100% of weight onto the back foot even when pivoting only 45 degrees. This, of course, became habit, and I found myself very often with no structure / being uprooted in chisau when turning with punches or bong sau. This is because I was shifting too much weight, too quickly, compared to how much I was pivoting. I since changed my practice keeping my weight more forward, and, if shifting weight to the "rearish" foot, doing so purportionally to my facing (so, if you practice say, all weight on the rear leg when turned 90, try only 66%/33% when shifted 45 degrees in your form).

Weight distribution needn't be precise, of course, and some people use 50-50 all the time, even, whilst others vary. But the way CK is taught in the form, in the Yip Ching lineage, I think it cultivates a habit of throwing one's self off balance when shifting small amounts in chisau, so I have long since dropped this practice.

This is one thing that irritates me just a bit with the way WC is taught / practiced, because I am a very habitual person. Some people can practice a form one way, and then do things totally different in sparring or chisau, but I don't do that (and don't think it's really a good thing, as our training should be consistent). And, of course, as a student, you will generally be corrected / are not really encouraged to question or change your habits when you find, after much practice and open-minded experimentation, potential defects in the way you are taught -- unless you have a very open minded teacher, at least!


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2016)

Argus said:


> This is one thing that irritates me just a bit with the way WC is taught / practiced, because I am a very habitual person. Some people can practice a form one way, and then do things totally different in sparring or chisau, but I don't do that (and don't think it's really a good thing, as our training should be consistent). And, of course, as a student, you will generally be corrected / are not really encouraged to question or change your habits when you find, after much practice and open-minded experimentation, potential defects in the way you are taught -- unless you have a very open minded teacher, at least!



This is also why I don't like the exaggerated YGKYM with the knees all "pinched inward" that some people use and say it is a "training stance", and then they use a much more relaxed "neutral stance" when actually doing Chi Sau, etc.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 14, 2016)

KPM said:


> This is also why I don't like the exaggerated YGKYM with the knees all "pinched inward" that some people use and say it is a "training stance", and then they use a much more relaxed "neutral stance" when actually doing Chi Sau, etc.


 
Yes, I have done chi sao with people who stand there in the same manner that they would stand at the water cooler at work while asking if you saw the latest episode of GREY'S ANATOMY (or whatever show people discuss around water coolers).


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