# Fork of martial artists for Christ, dialogue



## TSDTexan (Feb 14, 2017)

I am opening a thread up here to have dialogue about Christ, martial arts, faith and religious beliefs.
Be respectful, but be frank.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 14, 2017)

What is it you want to talk about specifically?  I'm a Christian (specifically, Catholic) and I practice a traditional Okinawan martial art.  I don't see any conflicts between the two.


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## Headhunter (Feb 14, 2017)

Isn't that the point of this entire forum to talk about martial arts and if you want to talk about religion I'm sure there's category for that here to


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## Flying Crane (Feb 14, 2017)

I'll bite, based on comment I saw in the other thread.

The existence of a god of any sort, by any name, cannot be proven, nor disproven.  A diety cannot be seen, felt, detected, nor measured in any way.  Anyone claiming to have seen, felt, detected, measured, spoken/communicated with a diety of any kind has only their word to offer in support of that claim, and that is not proof that can be accepted by anyone else.  It cannot be corroborated by a third party.  If you accept the existence of a diety, then you accept on pure faith, not on any actual proof.

Holy texts are not proof.  They were written by people, not by the hand of a diety.  

Will I go to heaven, or hell, or someplace else, or be reincarnated, or simply end my existence when I die?  I have no idea, and there is no way to uncover the answer before I die.  So I have no interest in it and I do not waste time worrying about it nor planning for it.  I don't think about it, I actually simply have no interest in it.  And that feeling extends to religions as a whole.

The notion that a diety can choose to cure cancer in a baby is dangerous and foolish.  Putting any faith in such a position will get you one thing: a dead baby.  Miracles don't happen.  Get your medical treatments from a real doctor, not from a cleric.

Praying for others' salvation is offensive, if the recipient of the prayers does not share your religious belief.  My "soul", if I and anyone else even have one, does not need to be saved.  If, upon my death, I find myself face-to-face with a diety and am told to account for my life, I will deal with it then.  Until that happens, I don't waste time or energy worrying about it.

Physics tells us a lot about how the universe was formed and how it functions.  Biology and chemistry tell us a lot about how life works.  Granted, none of these disciplines can yet tell us exactly how it all began, but new discoveries are happening all the time, that increase our understanding.  Nothing yet indicates the will or direction of a diety.  Nothing.  The fact that not all the details are yet understood, does not indicate a diety.  It simply means there is research yet to be done.

If Satan is allowed to spread evil in the world, then he would be doing so at god's will.  If god chooses to restrain Satan later, why would he then confine Satan to a lake of fire in punishment?  That makes no sense at all.  Satan was only acting at god's will, after all.  

To the limited extent that I have thought about this, I choose to believe that if there is a Satan/Lucifer as agent of evil, he would not be a fallen angel, but would actually be god's most trusted servant of all the angels.  Satan would be acting on god's directions, and would be charged with being the source of evil in the world.  Satan could never act in opposition to an omnipotent god.  It would not be possible.  Only the closest and most loyal servant could be trusted with such a difficult responsibility.  So Satan would not be punished afterwards.  He would sit at the seat of highest honor next to god.  That is a mythology that I prefer, so far as evil goes.

Anyway, so far as it goes.


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2017)

Yeah why not.  

So i used a very old logic argument that shows the dichotomy between being all powerful and all loving.

You response was don't judge god. 

Umm......  Seriously?


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2017)

@offheard if god actually answers prayers then doesn't that make the situation worse?

I read this thing where some Christian was asked to move a car and drove it somewhere but later found out the car had no motor.

Miracle.

Proof of faith. 

Push the car. Save those miracles for the cancer babies.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 14, 2017)

Oh now I see. Nevermind.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 14, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Oh now I see. Nevermind.


There is a reason i stopped paying attention to the other thread. Was hoping this one would go a different way, but apparently not.


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## TSDTexan (Feb 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I'll bite, based on comment I saw in the other thread.
> 
> The existence of a god of any sort, by any name, cannot be proven, nor disproven.  A diety cannot be seen, felt, detected, nor measured in any way.  Anyone claiming to have seen, felt, detected, measured, spoken/communicated with a diety of any kind has only their word to offer in support of that claim, and that is not proof that can be accepted by anyone else.  It cannot be corroborated by a third party.  If you accept the existence of a diety, then you accept on pure faith, not on any actual proof.
> 
> ...



Your opinion is respected.
However, it is my experience that God of the bible is in fact real.

The way the bible records it. Lucifer was created perfect, but using his own freewill chose the path of rebellion.

He is responsible for deviating from the role and purpose God created for him.

The bible record shows that after the Final Judgment, Satan as he is called these days will be thrown into the lake of fire, for all eternity.

Jesus makes the claim that He was there when Satan was cast out of Heaven, and the presence of God. He claims that Satan fell to the earth like a bolt of lightning.

You claim that "Satan could never act in opposition to an omnipotent god.  It would not be possible."


An omnipotent being doesn't have to act instantly, at all times, to be omnipotent. 

Allowing Satan a period of time to act against Him doesn't make Him impotent.

Nor does it make Him the author of evil, or a participant/co-conspiracy boss.

Allowing, for a limited time a voice of opposition, serves a greater purpose. Men will have to act in faith towards a quieter voice.

Eventually, God will act at the time He has already decided. And He will bring all rebels to heel.

To choose to join in rebellion to God is the call of Satan.

To submit, like Christ did, is the whisper of the almighty.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 16, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Your opinion is respected.
> However, it is my experience that God of the bible is in fact real.



I would be interested hearing in what convinces you of this.  

I honestly don't know one way or the other.  I simply say, a diety cannot be seen or felt or measured.  It cannot be proven, nor disproven.  Acceptance of a diety is based on faith, not evidence.  As such, I am not interested in spending time or energy on it.

So what is it that has you convinced?

As far as the Satan issue, I don't expect anyone to really agree with me on it. It's just an alternate way of seeing it that makes more sense to me. I am not interested in trying to convince anyone that my view is correct, it doesn't really matter to me.


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## TSDTexan (Feb 16, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah why not.
> 
> So i used a very old logic argument that shows the dichotomy between being all powerful and all loving.
> 
> ...



Actually, it's premature to judge before you have all the facts in hand.

On the notion that He is all loving...
He doesn't love everyone. He hates lucifer and his band of fallen angels.

He is powerful, none exists with more power.
Just because He hasn't vindicated Himself yet, doesn't mean that He can't or won't.

He is able to rectify every evil thing that happens to children, such as cancer. But it is unlikely that He will do so at least, while this current mode of creation exists.

He announced that He has a replacement heaven and earth, and that this current one will be retired/destroyed.

He is going to make all things new.
So while His claims are being waited for, they are still already on the record.

This remains to be seen...
In the face of claims that He can't actually or chooses not to act right now, on our human time table ergo He is evil and immoral.

Therefore it's a foregone conclusion to judge Him, with limited facts.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 16, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Actually, it's premature to judge before you have all the facts in hand.
> 
> On the notion that He is all loving...
> He doesn't love everyone. He hates lucifer and his band of fallen angels.
> ...


Ok, this is standard fare stuff.  I've heard this stuff before.

What convinces you it is true?


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## TSDTexan (Feb 16, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I would be interested hearing in what convinces you of this.
> 
> I honestly don't know one way or the other.  I simply say, a diety cannot be seen or felt or measured.  It cannot be proven, nor disproven.  Acceptance of a diety is based on faith, not evidence.  As such, I am not interested in spending time or energy on it.
> 
> ...




I will be glad to share my personal experiences with you.

But first let me respond to your comment:

"_*I simply say, a diety cannot be seen or felt or measured.  It cannot be proven, nor disproven."*_

As much as I respect your belief as sincere, I will offer the suggestion that it is incorrect.

The proof of God is right in front of us. What I mean to say is science and logic testify that the proof of God is that the universe exists, when in fact, it should not exist.

Let us take the following three statements as a given:

1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning.

2. The universe began to exist.

3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning.

We know from direct observation that spontaneous creation of matter/energy has never occurred without a cause or catalyst.

We know that there was a point in time when the universe never existed. It was an empty vacuum of nothingness.

A miracle had to happen, in order that matter and energy, chemistry, physics and all the laws that govern our universe could spring into existence, from nothingness.

Now, that alone doesn't prove the God of the bible is the God who created the universe.

But it is proof of a God.

Now, on to my personal experiences.
I will offer two events.

Fall 2007, Lakehills, Texas
My Aunt had severely bruised the top of her foot. It effected her walk badly, and she was in great pain.

The bruise started at the root of her big toe and covered the whole top of the left foot from side to side, and ended at the ankle.

It was dark blue-black, and I estimate 3'' by 4''. It had been caused by a fireproof safe falling off a shell and landing on her foot, about 9 hours before I arrived.

When I got there, I saw what pain she was in. I asked if she had taken anything for it. She said she had taken some OTC pain relievers, but to no avail.

I was troubled in my heart because I really cared about her. I said I couldn't do anything, but maybe we could pray. I knew she was a firm believer, and we sat down and earnestly prayed that Jesus would heal her for about three minutes.

I went into the kitchen to get a towel and ice.
Suddenly she started yelling for me to come quick, she felt the pain disappearing.

I hurried back. And right in front of our eyes we watched the bruise disappear like a shadow when someone turns on a light.
It completely disappeared in seconds.

Event number two.
July 2009, the Pearl District of Portland Oregon.
I was thrown from my Longboard Skateboard as I was going downhill through a crosswalk.

My wheels came to a sudden stop, because they met streetcar rails that the asphalt had peeled away from.

I was carrying a laptop in a messenger bag.
It landed first, and I speared myself on its edge. I went to the hospital, and chest ex rays showed multiple broken ribs.

I was in the most intense agonizing pain in my life. I hurt when I moved, breathed, I couldn't sleep. I couldn't raise much arms to shoulder level. I could go on at length, but that's not the point.

The point is that I was desperate, and in agony. I cried out to God in tears. I prayed in sincere need, begging.

In short, within 72 hours, I was a recipient of a miracle. The doctor said the soonest I would heal was 5-7 weeks.

I was fully healed, full range of motion and movement and pain free when I got up on the third morning after I prayed.

Now you can write me off as a liar, or mentally unstable. But I know what I experienced.

Now, there are many many times I have *not* had the prayers answered with the answer I was looking for.

God isn't a genie in a bottle that you rub for wish fulfillment.


Looking forward to hearing from you


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I will be glad to share my personal experiences with you.
> 
> But first let me respond to your comment:
> 
> ...


Physics does a good job of describing how the universe works, all the way back to a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang itself.  Research is being done to uncover what came earlier.

Human history is rife with examples of unknown phenomenon that were attributed to the supernatural.  Things like diseases and the movement of the sun across the sky.  These things became understood, as science progressed.  That is indisputable.  That trend continues.  

Taking something that is as of yet imperfectly understood, and deciding that the only explanation for it MUST be supernatural, is a desperation move.  It is a huge leap to make without first looking for more mundane answers.  There are other explanations, and sci nice is giving us those answers, over and over again.

Have you ever had a college level astronomy class?  I'm not talking about a physics and calculus-heavy, high level astronomy class.  I'm talking about a lower-division introductory class that is understandable by anyone who has made it through high school.  Even in a class of this level, this stuff is explained and is completely understandable.  If you haven't had such a class, or don't have access to one, there are plenty of books available to the general public, that do a good job of explaining this stuff.  This information is readily available.  I would be happy to give you suggestions.  I would even send you one.

As to your aunts experience, is there any proof you can offer, other than you telling me it happened?  If I spoke with her, would she corroborate the story?  Is there anyone else who saw the injury, and then saw that it was gone, in such a short time?  Injuries do sometimes heal surprisingly quickly, or prove to be not as serious as initially thought.

As to your broken rib, what proof can you offer, other than your assertion that it happened?  You had an X-ray, would that record be available from your doctors office?  I assume you then saw the doctor again after it healed so quickly, would they have a record of that visit and the follow-up assessment?  Was there a second X-ray to re-examine the rib?  I would be interested in reviewing those medical records, to substantiate a broken rib healed one the space of a day or two.

These claims require some solid evidence before they could be accepted.  Is there any?


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## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Physics does a good job of describing how the universe works, all the way back to a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang itself.  Research is being done to uncover what came earlier.
> 
> Human history is rife with examples of unknown phenomenon that were attributed to the supernatural.  Things like diseases and the movement of the sun across the sky.  These things became understood, as science progressed.  That is indisputable.  That trend continues.
> 
> ...




I would be happy to let you contact my aunt. She has shared her testimony concerning the bruised foot, to other people face to face.

I would need to obtain her permission before giving her contact info to someone she doesn't know, but it should be simple and straightforward.

My Xrays are admittedly more problematic. I did not really want to pay several hundred dollars out of pocket, as my insurance wasn't going to cover the second series of films within a week.

The first showed clear breaks, no miracle in that. At the time I was just very happy to be painfree and able to work. I wasn't concerned with documenting a miracle, but paying my bills.

I wish that I had paid for the second round of Xrays, in retrospect.

I would be happy to submit to a lie detector examination concerning my testimony.

As for the big bang, all physics and astronomy guys concur that nothing existed prior to the big bang.

Nothing existed. Then something happened to cause nothing to produce something.

There remains no observable circumstances to watch and study how an empty realm, or void space can spontaneously cause matter and space between matter to exist.

How the universe came to exist will without time travel be a matter of theory and conjecture.

The position of the Christian is easy. The bible claims divine inspiration, ie God caused men over time to author a record. 66 books over the space of 3400bce to 90ce.
This record makes the claim that God did it.

So we hold that God has given testimony that He created it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Actually, it's premature to judge before you have all the facts in hand.
> 
> On the notion that He is all loving...
> He doesn't love everyone. He hates lucifer and his band of fallen angels.
> ...



Where did you get these ideas from? 'Satan' doesn't occupy any prominent role in Jewish theology at all, the word itself just means 'adversary or enemy' with the root word being 'to oppose', there is no supernatural attachment to this. In the opening chapters of the Book of Job , ‘The Satan’ (with the definite article, so the meaning is ‘the Adversary’ and Satan here is not a proper name) is an angel who appears in the council of the angels in order to challenge God to put Job to the test.
The Satan, who acts like a prosecuting attorney, or a district attorney, in G-d's court. However, The Satan has no power or authority in and of himself, rather he must get permission from the Judge, G-d, to do anything.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I would be happy to let you contact my aunt. She has shared her testimony concerning the bruised foot, to other people face to face.
> 
> I would need to obtain her permission before giving her contact info to someone she doesn't know, but it should be simple and straightforward.
> 
> ...


Ok, I accept that your aunt would corroborate the story.  Any other witnesses to her injury and quick healing?  No doctor visit there?

As to your broken rib, yes it is unfortunate that there is not follow-up medical records.  There is no evidence that this happened, and I cannot accept it as proof of divine intervention. I simply cannot.

A friend of mine in college broke his wrist, and had it in a cast for a while.  He got tired of it, wanted to go skiing and decided it was a hinderance.  Long before the cast was due to come off, he simply cut it off himself and he as done with it,
And he healed up fine.  So, things happen.  I have no reason to see divine interventions on in any of it.

Before the Big Bang, all the contents of the universe were contained in an infinitely small space.  That is very very different from "there was nothing there".  The physics and the math describe it all quite well.

Once upon a time, people believed illness was caused by supernatural causes.  Then they began to understand about bacteria, viruses, Protozoa, amoeba, genetics, all of which can cause diseases.  They began to understand how good hygiene can prevent many of these diseases.  And this changed the world, even without modern medicines and medical therapies.

The supernatural does not affect the world.  There are still religious sects that believe in prayer as a cure for disease.  Jim Hensen belonged to one of those religions.  He did not get treatment for a treatable disease, and he is dead now.  A diety does not intervene to cure people.  Those who believe in, and count on, that to happen without medical treatment, are courting disaster.

The notion that a diety can step in to cure someone, but won't do so due to various circular justifications is nonsensical.  A diety who cannot be seen, felt, tasted, heard, or measured, cannot be proven nor disproven, and who can cure a baby with cancer but will not do so, is no different from a diety who does not exist.

I see nothing of proof here.  I see a reliance on old books written ages ago, written by people who were writing in the context of their era in history.  There may be some good advice in those books, (along with some very bad) but I see nothing of the divine in them.  Nothing to indicate that a diety had a hand in writing them by direct influence of the authors.

There is no evidence.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> The supernatural does not affect the world. There are still religious sects that believe in prayer as a cure for disease.



*Exactly* and  ( not addressed to you Flying Crane) if you are going to steal large parts of other peoples religion you really need not to twist the meaning and ideas it contains into something you think is right.
We weren't given, brains, intelligence, freewill and opposable thumbs so we could sit and pray our way out of things we must be responsible for. We are supposed to do things ourselves, not to pray so poor people are fed, we feed them, not pray for peace, we make the peace, we don't pray for cures we become doctors and medics. We don't sit around wailing 'oh it's G-ds will that people starve etc' we get off our backsides and help these people ( without strings ie convert to your religion!) There is so much focussing on 'I' in all this, instead of praying at G-d for this, that and the other, assuming you know what G-d is and wants ( good grief can you even do that with total certainly let alone a diety!) you should be going out doing things. It's all about actions, the actions you do to love your fellows, to make life better for them, to perform acts of kindness and goodness not to sit around preaching or pontificating. We should be repairing the world ( “_Tikkun olam_”) not thinking about ourselves. 
Judaism 101: Love and Brotherhood





Flying Crane said:


> I see a reliance on old books written ages ago, written by people who were writing in the context of their era in history



Which have been translated so many times into so many languages by people with agendas to push that most 'Bibles' don't actually resemble the original. *Certainly no Jew over 2000 years ago would recognise what people are reading these days or the ideas that come from these strange versions. * 

It doesn't bother me whether people have a religion/faith or not, if they have it doesn't bother me which faith/sect/religion it is but when you take only the parts you want from someone else's faith, mess around with it to make it say what you want then shove it down peoples throats, forcibly convert or make people convert before giving them medical treatment and schooling, when you persecute people who don't believe as you do then you are the biggest cockwomble going.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Your opinion is respected.
> However, it is my experience that God of the bible is in fact real.
> 
> The way the bible records it. Lucifer was created perfect, but using his own freewill chose the path of rebellion.
> ...


I could make many logical arguments about where I think the Bible is clearly self-contradictory, etc. I'm not sure there's a lot of merit in that type of debate though.

For me, it comes down to this: I don't believe in any pervading or overseeing consciousness. I've never found any reason to believe in one. I've never found any significant evidence that supports the concept of one (at least, none that supports that concept better than other possibilities). I just see a natural world. It contains things we don't yet understand. I suspect it contains things we will never quite understand, because there are too many questions left to ask and humanity will not be around forever.

I consider myself areligious, agnostic, pantheistic (I could define that as I use it, but for most folks it comes out to approximately the same thing as "atheistic"), and moderately spiritual. Only that last part has any relation to my martial arts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> What I mean to say is science and logic testify that the proof of God is that the universe exists, when in fact, it should not exist.


Actually, neither science nor logic makes the assertion that the universe should not exist.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> The universe began to exist.


This is a conclusion, not a fact. It is possible that we simply cannot conceive of something without a beginning, but that such a thing is possible. Nothing we know of the workings of our universe specifically precludes this, so far as I know.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Actually, it's premature to judge before you have all the facts in hand.
> 
> On the notion that He is all loving...
> He doesn't love everyone. He hates lucifer and his band of fallen angels.
> ...



Beyond reasonable doubt.  Doesn't really cover that a guy will fix a thing at some undefined time in the future. 

You judge on the facts you have.  Not the ones you don't.

I understand the celestial tea cup fallacy.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, neither science nor logic makes the assertion that the universe should not exist.



And i don't know does not equal god.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I will be glad to share my personal experiences with you.
> 
> But first let me respond to your comment:
> 
> ...



Ok.  And back to cancer babies
 What do you think the motivation behind healing a foot over curing cancer?


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## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Where did you get these ideas from? 'Satan' doesn't occupy any prominent role in Jewish theology at all, the word itself just means 'adversary or enemy' with the root word being 'to oppose', there is no supernatural attachment to this. In the opening chapters of the Book of Job , ‘The Satan’ (with the definite article, so the meaning is ‘the Adversary’ and Satan here is not a proper name) is an angel who appears in the council of the angels in order to challenge God to put Job to the test.
> The Satan, who acts like a prosecuting attorney, or a district attorney, in G-d's court. However, The Satan has no power or authority in and of himself, rather he must get permission from the Judge, G-d, to do anything.




Tez, welcome to the conversation.

It would be helpful if you were more specific
When you ask "Where did you get these ideas from?"

Which specific ideas?  let us numerically order them, so I can respond point by point.

Regarding HaSatan's role in HaShem's courts as an adversary of humanity at large (as in the time of job) and later as an accusing adversary towards Abraham, and his seed.

I have no disagreement with this.
However,
It doesn't mean that he still lives in Heaven, but at intervals is granted access to God's courts.

I read Rashi's comments regarding Satan in the book of Job. And I concur.

His role after the fall where him and his angels lost their first estate is still that role as he functions as an accusing adversary.

Satan had a certain amount of of leeway, and his limit by God was that he couldn't slay Job outright.


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## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is a conclusion, not a fact. It is possible that we simply cannot conceive of something without a beginning, but that such a thing is possible. Nothing we know of the workings of our universe specifically precludes this, so far as I know.




Actually, logic dictates because of the law of thermodynamics, the universe will suffer heat death at one end, and had to have a starting point.

Also philosophically, the idea of an infinite past has been thoroughly worked through. And it simply doesn't work.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Actually, logic dictates because of the law of thermodynamics, the universe will suffer heat death at one end, and had to have a starting point.
> 
> Also philosophically, the idea of an infinite past has been thoroughly worked through. And it simply doesn't work.


um... care to explain your conclusion a bit more?


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## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This is a conclusion, not a fact. It is possible that we simply cannot conceive of something without a beginning, but that such a thing is possible. Nothing we know of the workings of our universe specifically precludes this, so far as I know.



There is no evidence to support the claim that the universe always existed. What evidence exists, shows a definite point of beginning.

This is the consensus view of academia at large the world over.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Tez, welcome to the conversation.
> 
> It would be helpful if you were more specific
> When you ask "Where did you get these ideas from?"
> ...



You speak as if you think 'Satan' is a name and a specific entity yet it's not, it's The Satan, it's a job description.

Rashi is famous for his *commentaries *( not 'comments) but are best read in Hebrew as all the commentaries are because of the nuances. However his commentaries were written not by him but by his students, he had a strange way of working. Students would ask him questions about the text, or he would rhetorically ask questions about specific words, and a student would write  short comment in the margin of the parchment text. These answers comprise Rashi's commentary. I prefer Rambam's myself. Commentaries are on going, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz recently completed his.

for those who don't know who Rashi is Who Was Rashi?

And this Judaism 101: Torah and why it's way more complicated than just comments.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> There is no evidence to support the claim that the universe always existed. What evidence exists, shows a definite point of beginning.
> 
> This is the consensus view of academia at large the world over.


Well, what is not known is the conditions exactly at, and prior to, the Big Bang.  So a claim that there was nothing before, is not substantiated.  It is unknown.

How do you feel this affects a diety?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Actually, logic dictates because of the law of thermodynamics, the universe will suffer heat death at one end, and had to have a starting point.
> 
> Also philosophically, the idea of an infinite past has been thoroughly worked through. And it simply doesn't work.


Philosophy is based upon what we can work out, and there are no absolutes from it. Philosophy is not, nor has it ever been, a source of actual evidence. It's a means of thinking through a problem, and the results are always arguable. Besides which, there are (and long have been) philosophers who ascribe to a view of an eternal universe (Aristotle among them).

As for the laws of thermodynamics, they are part of general physics and general relativity. There is much in quantum physics that does not seem to adhere to many of the laws of general relativity. For instance, we have actual evidence of the spontaneous appearance of particles out of empty space (see Quantum Fluctuation). Thus, relatively simple laws like this cannot be said to be absolute regarding beginnings.

While I'm at it, I'll point out that Quantum Fluctuation gives us the possibility of a beginning from nothing (as we currently understand "nothing").


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> There is no evidence to support the claim that the universe always existed. What evidence exists, shows a definite point of beginning.
> 
> This is the consensus view of academia at large the world over.


It is. But that is a conclusion from information, and not a proven fact. It may never be proven either way. My point is that you're using as absolutes things which are not absolutes. And then you're making absolute deductions from them, which deductions are also not absolutes, so you have second-order uncertainty.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> How do you feel this affects a diety?



Gives him a headache?

I don't know if you have seen a lot of the nonsense on the internet and other places that many christians think the 'Big Bang' theory is Jewish propaganda designed to lead the 'faithful' to hell... yes really, just another thing to blame us for.

To be honest most Jews don't care either way how the world started, it isn't a big thing, just as we don't actually mention G-d a lot either. Time spent arguing about that could be better spent doing something actually doing something good. If you think G-d made the world then he can have as easily done the evolution thing along with the dinosaurs etc as create it all in a couple of days, why worry?
And the Lord said 'let there be a Big Bang'


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

Well, and it's this line of reasoning that goes, "I don't understand something (even, science does not at this time understand something) therefore it MUST be proof of a diety."

Well no, I do not buy it.  That is so faulty as to be rediculous.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, and it's this line of reasoning that goes, "I don't understand something (even, science does not at this time understand something) therefore it MUST be proof of a diety."
> 
> Well no, I do not buy it.  That is so faulty as to be rediculous.



I don't know why we have to understand everything, somethings are better for being a mystery. We can of course and should question everything, it's a very Jewish trait, hence the commentaries, constantly questioning what is written, and of course we do have a fair share of the world's scientists but we don't always have the answers, perhaps we aren't supposed to because the questions are the important things.

The thing about Judaism, is that we don't actually bring G-d into our faith a lot, we don't 'believe', we know after all we have a written contract with him, we don't feel the need to constantly to prove ( to ourselves?) that a deity exists and we aren't bothered much if other people don't believe, why would we, beliefs should be personal to the individual.

A rabbi once said: "We are closer to God when we are asking questions than when we think we have the answers."

One should never think one has all the answers and that our answers are the only ones that are correct.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> His role after the fall where him and his angels lost their first estate is still that role as he functions as an accusing adversary.



_"Satan is not a being, but is rather the influences we have compelling us toward that which goes counter to G-d’s Will. These influences are called the “yetzer hara” (evil inclination), otherwise known as Satan, not because Satan is evil, but because these influences drive a person to desire that which is evil._

_The yetzer hara will do it’s job but it does not want to succeed. It wants _*us*_ to succeed in not succumbing, yet most of us fail dismally. Those who do not fail are diamonds in the eyes of G-d._

_As to the fallen angel Lucifer of Yeshayahu (Isaiah) 14:12, it is a Christian misunderstanding of the text. Hailail, the name in the text, and not Lucifer (there is no Lucifer anywhere in Hebrew Scripture), is the morning star…VENUS. People would rise at dawn and see one lonely star in the sky, and some assume, in error, that the star had fallen from the Heavens, and the myth of the rebelling angel was born. Hailail is Venus, which can still be seen on certain mornings long after all the other stars have tucked themselves away."
_
From here, which explains much better than I can.
_
Ask the Rabbi, JewishAnswers.org » The Jewish View of Satan_


----------



## Steve (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I would be happy to let you contact my aunt. She has shared her testimony concerning the bruised foot, to other people face to face.
> 
> I would need to obtain her permission before giving her contact info to someone she doesn't know, but it should be simple and straightforward.
> 
> ...


What if you're ribs were healed by Isis or Minerva?  Boy, wouldn't that be embarrassing!


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> _"Satan is not a being, but is rather the influences we have compelling us toward that which goes counter to G-d’s Will. These influences are called the “yetzer hara” (evil inclination), otherwise known as Satan, not because Satan is evil, but because these influences drive a person to desire that which is evil._
> 
> _The yetzer hara will do it’s job but it does not want to succeed. It wants _*us*_ to succeed in not succumbing, yet most of us fail dismally. Those who do not fail are diamonds in the eyes of G-d._
> 
> ...



While that is the position of most branches of Judaism.

 It excludes messianic Judaism.

Remember that the Christian faith actually was a sect, of Hebrews, and all of the new Testament was authored by Hebrew men except the two volume book Luke/Acts... who was a "ger" and personally trained by Jesus.

In the gospel of Mathew (which btw was originally penned in Hebrew, for Jewish readers) Satan and Jesus had an encounter.

This was right after Jesus was baptized on the Jordan river by his cousin John the Baptist.

The encounter is between two beings. They talk to each other, and one picks up and carries the other, ( in flight no less ).


Within Christianity the Devil is a synonym for Satan, and vice versa.

One name means "adversary" (also enemy)

The other means "slanderer" (or "the accuser).

Jesus refers to him as "the Father of lies".
It's no big leap to go from accusing adversary to slandering adversary.

The point is the New Testament refers to this being in the male pronoun "he".

The New Testament identifies his fall, his current activities, and his end.

In the bible, the most common synonym for "Satan" is "devil", which descends from Middle English devel, from Old English dēofol, that in turn represents an early Germanic borrowing of Latin diabolus (also the source of "diabolical").

This in turn was borrowed from the Greek word diabolos "slanderer", from diaballein "to slander": dia- "across, through" + ballein "to hurl".



The Book of Revelation twice refers to "the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan" (12:9, 20:2)

About the identity of lucifer (aka Venus) in Christianity... please refer to the following for a full explaination.

Lucifer was borrowed from the Latin translation of the Hebrew OT aka Tanakh, that was performed by Jerome (which was called the Vulgate).

I already the lucifer was VENUS.
During the fourth century when Jerome was translating from the the Hebrew scriptures (what few he had) and Greek translation aka the Septuagint to the Latin of the Vulgate, the planet *Venus was called Lucifer*. It was called the same in Roman Astrology and Astronomy.

So we see that Jerome made a logical choice of wording in this particular passage and timeframe to associate Isaiah 14:12 with the morning star Venus.

In the original Hebrew the reference is to *Heylel ben Shachar*. The first Hebrew word Heylel *means morning star, literally the planet Venus*; from the root word halal *meaning to shine or give light,* also quite appropriately, *to boast* . The second word, ben, means son (of).

Shachar translates *generally to morning, or properly to dawn.*

Also of note, the Roman Catholic Church says : the Father maintain that Lucifer is not the proper name of the Devil but denotes only the state from which he has fallen (Petavius, _De Angelis_, III, iii, 4).


Is Lucifer Satan? Does the fall of Lucifer describe Satan?


How Did Lucifer Fall and Become Satan?


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

Steve said:


> What if you're ribs were healed by Isis or Minerva?  Boy, wouldn't that be embarrassing!



Except, I never called out to those pagan false deities. So they never would get credit for healing me (supposing, for your premis that they exist/existed)


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You speak as if you think 'Satan' is a name and a specific entity yet it's not, it's The Satan, it's a job description.
> 
> Rashi is famous for his *commentaries *( not 'comments) but are best read in Hebrew as all the commentaries are because of the nuances. However his commentaries were written not by him but by his students, he had a strange way of working. Students would ask him questions about the text, or he would rhetorically ask questions about specific words, and a student would write  short comment in the margin of the parchment text. These answers comprise Rashi's commentary. I prefer Rambam's myself. Commentaries are on going, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz recently completed his.
> 
> ...



I chose my wording specifically.

Yes, I know he has a commentary.
I used to own a 5 volume set produced by Artscroll.


----------



## Steve (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Except, I never called out to those pagan false deities. So they never would get credit for healing me (supposing, for your premis that they exist/existed)


If you leave home with a messy lawn and come home to find that someone has mowed the grass and trimmed the trees, you don't know which of your neighbors did that.  theres a fine line between faith and wishful thinking.


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, what is not known is the conditions exactly at, and prior to, the Big Bang.  So a claim that there was nothing before, is not substantiated.  It is unknown.
> 
> How do you feel this affects a diety?



Well. Have to agree, none of us were there.
The bible maintains God was there when created the universe.

I understand that you reject the bible's record of this. I hope it works out for you.

I see that you need proof before you will believe. 

I fear that no evidence that will bear enough scrutiny exists to meet your standard.

You can lead a horse to water, etc.

I doubt that you will accept that the universe had a beginning. Even though it's true.


There is an old quote:
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible."
*Stuart Chase*


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 17, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Well. Have to agree, none of us were there.
> The bible maintains God was there when created the universe.
> 
> I understand that you reject the bible's record of this. I hope it works out for you.
> ...


Im ok with it, as long as you understand that your belief is based on faith and not evidence.  

That cannot be taught in school as an alternate "science". It absolutely is not science.  

It can be taught in a religious studies course.  It cannot be taught as science, or as an alternative to evolution.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Except, I never called out to those pagan false deities. So they never would get credit for healing me (supposing, for your premis that they exist/existed)



Ok. is god responsible for all the bad miraculous things that happen?

I come home and all the milk is gone for no good reason. Is he stealing my milk?


----------



## zephyr424 (Feb 18, 2017)

If you're not an angel, just know that almost everyone on this earth -besides you- is. That includes everyone in your family. Beware though, they will deny it while being able to supernaturally read your mind to know if you believe them. Having angels everywhere is how culture can change so radically from the 50's Leave it to Beaver to the rampant immorality of today. Regular humans wouldn't allow such vulnerability to their sons and daughters everything else being equal.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


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## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> It excludes messianic Judaism.



*NO, THERE IS NO SUCH THING. IT'S CHRISTIANITY THROUGH AND THROUGH.*

To present your Christianity as 'messianic Judaism' is a false and misleading trick to try and make people think that you are connected to Judaism which you are not, it bears not the slightest resemblance to anything Jewish and to do say it does is an affront to every Jewish man, woman and child. to be honest I can't think of anything you could post up along with your mumbo jumbo that is designed to affront and disgust more.
if you actually really look at your Jesus, he was a Jew, he followed Jewish practices, he said nothing that had not bee written before and while he may have been a messiah, one of many, it doesn't mean what you think it does, he was not the Mashiach, which is easy to prove...*we are all still here.*
I'm done, I have enough stalkers from here pushing me to convert in their weird belief that when all Jews convert the end of the world will come along with the rapture. Bollocks.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2017)

Oh and to put 'Messianic Jews' into context...imagine I blacked up my face and said I said I was down with the N-word while one of  my friends pull her eyes into slits, said she was Japanese while making stupid kiai noises and another friend was dressed as a sexy 'Red Indian'. Yep it's that offensive.


----------



## Dylan9d (Feb 18, 2017)

Im an Atheïst by heart.........

Grew up in a Christian home, but got cured and came to one insight.

Here comes:* "Religions are like Wing Chun lineages, each knows best and they are always fighting"*

Thus far my link between religion and martial arts


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Except, I never called out to those pagan false deities. So they never would get credit for healing me (supposing, for your premis that they exist/existed)


Well, we have to suppose for your premise that your god exists. I'm sure if anyone still worships Isis or Minerva, they would feel the same way about your god, that he is a false diety.

That's the thing with religions: everybody else worships a false diety, on a two-way street.  And yet nobody can offer a shred of actual proof.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

zephyr424 said:


> If you're not an angel, just know that almost everyone on this earth -besides you- is. That includes everyone in your family. Beware though, they will deny it while being able to supernaturally read your mind to know if you believe them. Having angels everywhere is how culture can change so radically from the 50's Leave it to Beaver to the rampant immorality of today. Regular humans wouldn't allow such vulnerability to their sons and daughters everything else being equal.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk


Wow.  I can honestly say, I've never heard this line of reasoning before.

Do tell.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Except, I never called out to those pagan false deities. So they never would get credit for healing me (supposing, for your premis that they exist/existed)


That presumes they (assuming they exist) care about the credit, or whether you specifically asked them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Well. Have to agree, none of us were there.
> The bible maintains God was there when created the universe.
> 
> I understand that you reject the bible's record of this. I hope it works out for you.
> ...


A corollary: For those who belief, no counter-evidence is sufficient. For those who don't believe, any counter-evidence is sufficient.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A corollary: For those who belief, no counter-evidence is sufficient. For those who don't believe, any counter-evidence is sufficient.


Well, I wouldn't say ANY counter-evidence is sufficient.  But ANY genuine evidence would certainly be interesting, because it's more that they've got so far.


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A corollary: For those who belief, no counter-evidence is sufficient. For those who don't believe, any counter-evidence is sufficient.



Well stated, but I don't agree.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Well stated, but I don't agree.


And that is fine, as I said earlier, as long as you can recognize that your belief is based in faith and not evidence.


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I wouldn't say ANY counter-evidence is sufficient.  But ANY genuine evidence would certainly be interesting, because it's more that they've got so far.




I am looking forward to the day that genuine believers in Christ, have their faith validation  with absolute proof at His return.

I know what I have experienced. I know what His word says.

You may know a little bit about what His word says, but you have never experienced any of it.

At least you are a good sport. You have been rather kind and gentle. There are many on the Internet, who are not.

The look on the faces of the mean-spirited scoffers, will be priceless.

Not saying anyone here is a mean spirited scoffed.

But the day will come when the faithful are justly rewarded. 

Flying Crane, I predict, that you will get proof, in time.

It should be very interesting indeed.


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> *NO, THERE IS NO SUCH THING. IT'S CHRISTIANITY THROUGH AND THROUGH.*
> 
> To present your Christianity as 'messianic Judaism' is a false and misleading trick to try and make people think that you are connected to Judaism which you are not, it bears not the slightest resemblance to anything Jewish and to do say it does is an affront to every Jewish man, woman and child. to be honest I can't think of anything you could post up along with your mumbo jumbo that is designed to affront and disgust more.
> if you actually really look at your Jesus, he was a Jew, he followed Jewish practices, he said nothing that had not bee written before and while he may have been a messiah, one of many, it doesn't mean what you think it does, he was not the Mashiach, which is easy to prove...*we are all still here.*
> I'm done, I have enough stalkers from here pushing me to convert in their weird belief that when all Jews convert the end of the world will come along with the rapture. Bollocks.



Plenty of Jews are still thoroughly Jewish, and know their messiah. They are a minority, but dispite propaganda to the contrary, they in small communites, exist.

As for Him being the Messiah, I will leave that to Him to show you.

I could care less if you converted Tez, or remained as you are. 

I have been through enough in dealing with you, on other issues to ever concern myself with trying to show you who the Messiah is/was.

I am not interested in talking with someone who is close minded and already has it all figured out. 

Good luck with that, Milady.
/waves byebye


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh and to put 'Messianic Jews' into context...imagine I blacked up my face and said I said I was down with the N-word while one of  my friends pull her eyes into slits, said she was Japanese while making stupid kiai noises and another friend was dressed as a sexy 'Red Indian'. Yep it's that offensive.



Sorry you feel that way.
You don't understand, and that's fine.

Maybe when your whole family pretends you are dead, because you follow Yeshua. You will understand, that we exist.

What I practice in my home has no resemblance to the Christianity that you think you know.

For the others reading

What is Messianic Judaism? - Congregation Shema Yisrael


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, I wouldn't say ANY counter-evidence is sufficient.  But ANY genuine evidence would certainly be interesting, because it's more that they've got so far.


Both the original and its corollary are about confirmation bias (though those who quote the original are usually not aware of that).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Well stated, but I don't agree.


It's the other side of the quote. If the one is true, the corollary also is. Neither is true in the absolute, though there is real truth in both.


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 18, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's the other side of the quote. If the one is true, the corollary also is. Neither is true in the absolute, though there is real truth in both.


This time I agree, but not as well stated


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2017)

'Messianic so called Jews' are Christians, they aren't Jews. To be Jewish is a lot of things, it's not about religion, it's about race, nationhood and ethnicity. You are stepping on so many toes when you call yourself a Jew, you actually have little idea what you do. We have Jews who have become Christians ( they aren't Messianic Jews they are Christian converts), Muslims, Buddhists etc and we have Jews who are atheists and agnostics but what we don't have is non Jews who think they are Jews. Are you likely to take our uniquely genetic medical conditions, the restrictions non Jews place on us, the anti Semitic violence and abuse as well when proclaiming yourself Jews?
Imagine a bunch of white men blacking up and going around calling themselves witch doctors, that's what you are doing to us. These so called 'Messianic Jews' hang around Jewish schools handing out leaflets, they invade our old peoples homes on the pretext of caring and try to convert. If you are Jewish, you’re a target. Millions of evangelical Christians in North America alone are passionately committed to converting us to their faith. They fund over 1,000 different missionary organizations to spearhead this effort. These include groups like Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries, as well as hundreds of Messianic congregations reaching out to Jews of all stripes. Many of these organizations encourage and train ordinary Christians to share their faith with Jewish friends, neighbours, and business associates.

This isn't a case of which religion is right, this is a case of hated of a people and the need by these 'Messianic so called' Jews to destroy a people not just a religion.

Jews for Jesus has a slogan, “We exist to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide.” If this is the reason for their existence than they might as well close shop. Christendom’s centuries old policy of degradation and contempt of Jews and Judaism, based on New Testament models, beat them to it.

The repressive papal encyclicals, the tirades of Luther, the economic disabilities, the forced conversions, the expulsions, the enforced isolation of the ghettos, and the annihilation of Jewish communities made “the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide.”

*Jesus was made an unavoidable issue for Jews with every unspeakable crime carried out in fulfillment of the “bloody commission” Jesus gave to his followers: “But these enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, bring them here, and slay them in my presence” (Luke 19:27).*

A statement that says, “We exist to make the Messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people world-wide” can only come from those who show no recognition of the fact that hatred of the Jewish people is caused by what the New Testament says rather than by people’s misinterpretation of its contents. Some Christians even assert that a true Christian cannot hate the Jewish people and that there is not even the slightest anti-Jewish sentiment expressed in the New Testament. These assertions disregard all literary, theological, and historical data to the contrary. In fact, one does not have to leave it to personal, theological, or emotional considerations to decide if the New Testament teaches visceral hatred of the Jewish people. The decision as to whether or not the New Testament contains anti-Jewish teachings may be based solely on the information provided by the New Testament itself. This information shows that the New Testament anti-Judaism finally led to anti-Semitism.

How sad it is that somebody actually thinks that they have to make Jesus an unavoidable issue for Jews. What do they think has been going on throughout the centuries? Know the real Jesus? We Jews encountered him in Matthew 23:35, in Luke 19:27, and in John 8:44. The Jesus of the New Testament is an unavoidable remembrance of what hatred toward Jews and Judaism lurked in the hearts of the authors of that evil volume.

Courtesy of Gerald Sigal

You may think me closed minded even though I have demonstrated otherwise, I don't think my religion is the only correct one or that my beliefs are the right ones etc but by appropriating something that has no connection to you, that belongs to another race, another people while asserting that you are actually correct and can ignore what being Jewish actually means shows that I'm not the closed minded one. If you can't be proud of your religion and call it what it is then you really can't be that sure of it. Many Christians manage their lives well and are good people but they call themselves what they are, Christians.  You cannot call yourself Jews when you aren't,  anymore than I can call myself Japanese, for me to do so would be insulting, for me to do so and berate the Japanese for not living and believe as I do would be unforgivably hateful.

Having read your posts, I find you tick off several of the indicators here.

*WHY THE JEWS?*

A question that naturally comes to mind is: Why the Jews? Why are these fundamentalist Christians so consumed with bringing the Jewish people to "know Jesus?" Why has the largest Protestant denomination in the United States, the Southern Baptist Convention, passed numerous resolutions encouraging more than 15 million American members to target and evangelize the Jewish people?

There are several reasons.

*Jesus said: "Go not into the way of the gentiles ... but only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."*
Firstly, the New Testament specifically prioritizes Jews for conversion. In the book of Matthew (10:5), when Jesus is instructing his apostles, he warns them, "Go not into the way of the gentiles ... but only go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." The Apostle Paul echoes the identical sentiment in the first chapter of the book of Romans when he declares, "Go to the Jew first, then to the Greek (i.e. gentile)." We find a recurrent and unique emphasis on reaching the Jews in the New Testament, especially in the Gospels, almost to the exclusion of the gentiles.


The rest can be read here:

Evangelizing the Jews | Outreach Judaism



The message from us though is 'Leave us the hell alone'.


----------



## TSDTexan (Feb 18, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> 'Messianic so called Jews' are Christians, they aren't Jews. To be Jewish is a lot of things, it's not about religion, it's about race, nationhood and ethnicity. You are stepping on so many toes when you call yourself a Jew, you actually have little idea what you do. We have Jews who have become Christians ( they aren't Messianic Jews they are Christian converts), Muslims, Buddhists etc and we have Jews who are atheists and agnostics but what we don't have is non Jews who think they are Jews. Are you likely to take our uniquely genetic medical conditions, the restrictions non Jews place on us, the anti Semitic violence and abuse as well when proclaiming yourself Jews?
> Imagine a bunch of white men blacking up and going around calling themselves witch doctors, that's what you are doing to us. These so called 'Messianic Jews' hang around Jewish schools handing out leaflets, they invade our old peoples homes on the pretext of caring and try to convert. If you are Jewish, you’re a target. Millions of evangelical Christians in North America alone are passionately committed to converting us to their faith. They fund over 1,000 different missionary organizations to spearhead this effort. These include groups like Jews for Jesus and Chosen People Ministries, as well as hundreds of Messianic congregations reaching out to Jews of all stripes. Many of these organizations encourage and train ordinary Christians to share their faith with Jewish friends, neighbours, and business associates.
> 
> This isn't a case of which religion is right, this is a case of hated of a people and the need by these 'Messianic so called' Jews to destroy a people not just a religion.
> ...



Your still here? I thought you left?

This thread was for dialogue. About Christ (a Greek word for Messiah), about martial arts, and anything between.

I never asked you to accept Messiah. I never asked you to convert.

I objected to your assertion that messianic Judaism doesn't exist.

History says otherwise, for seven centuries there were Jewish communities that recognized Yeshua as the Promised Messiah. They did not assimilate into gentile communities and forsake their distinctively Jewish lives. Their culture, their ethnicity, their customs, their traditions, and their bloodlines remained Jewish.

On an individual level, Messiah has revealed Him to many individuals. They remained exactly who they were were.

Now, I don't care who or what you are or call yourself. But my grandmother and grandfather fled Germany, where their families were sent to the camps.

They were Jewish then, just as we are now.
My mother was Jewish, as was hers.

But you don't get to determine who I am.
You don't have the authority to say I am not by hereditary Jewish.

There are over 300 messianic Jewish congregations in this country.

We exist. Deal with it. Or don't.
I care not.


----------



## Steve (Feb 18, 2017)

This thread is way too personal, and no good will come if it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 18, 2017)

Steve said:


> This thread is way too personal, and no good will come if it.


Probably true.

My involvement with this thread is not with the intent to attack anyone's religious beliefs.  However, I am trying to express some boundaries where I feel religious thought is appropriate, and where it is not appropriate.  

My feathers get ruffled if someone tries to convert others, and at the expression of ones soul being in mortal danger for following the wrong religion, or no religion at all.  I do find that offensive and I will argue against it.

I also hold strongly that religion has a place in education within religious studies, but not science.  Creationism, or Intelligent Design, for example, is not science and has no place within science courses.

Those are really my issues.


----------



## Steve (Feb 18, 2017)

Yeah, if this were a thread to explain more about a religion, that's interesting,   However, this frankly feels like talking to the guys with a life sized cross outside the movie theater handing out flyers.   It's weirdly out of context.  I think I'll leave this thread to you guys.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 18, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> I objected to your assertion that messianic Judaism doesn't exist.



And? I object to you calling yourself a Messianic Jew, it's an insult to Jews. You aren't, you are a Christian, you may be a Jew as well but not a 'Messianic' one which is a deliberately misleading word designed for the purposes I outlined before. If you are a Christian stand up and say so, if you are a Jew stand up and say so but don't bloody hide behind a nonsense designed only to gull people into thinking you are something you aren't. *How you worship, who you worship and why you worship are of no interest to me, they are your personal beliefs *but I have huge problems with organisations that are primarily concerned with conversions. That you can't see that and why you can't see it concerns me.

George W Bush's new 'crusade': converting Jews to Christianity | Andrew Brown
_"Such "Messianic Jews" – who accept that Jesus was the promised Messiah – _*are loathed by most other Jews, and regarded with great suspicion by mainstream Christian denominations.*_ If Jesus really was the promised Messiah, this would restore much of the traditional basis for Christian anti-semitism, which most Christians have struggled against for the last 50 years._

_But a belief in the necessary conversion of the Jews still flourishes on the wilder shores of American Christianity. "
_
Messianic Judaism
_
"Because of Messianic Judaism’s identification with Jesus, all of the major denominations of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, and Reconstructionist) have rejected Messianic Judaism as a form of Judaism. Within Christianity Messianic Judaism is sometimes seen as a group within the evangelical community, and sometimes seen as a separate sect. At times, various Christian leaders have publicly criticized Messianic Jews for their aggressive missionizing in the Jewish community and for misrepresenting themselves as Jews.
*A core component of Messianic Judaism is witnessing and missionizing to other Jews.* According to the evangelical theology accepted by Messianic Jews, those who are not saved are destined for eternal damnation. Helping to bring someone to Yeshua and thus to salvation is a responsibility of all Messianic Jews, and many embrace that role, particularly when it comes to Jewish members of their family. This is often at the root of the animosity between Messianic and mainstream Jewish communities.
When Messianic Jews try to do outreach within the mainstream Jewish community they are often met with resistance and outrage. *Among other things, the Jewish community objects to the title Messianic Judaism, because the messianism practiced by Messianic Jews is Jesus-focused, and thus by definition not Jewish*. *The use of the term Messianic Judaism strikes many as a subversive way of attracting Jews who do not know enough about their faith to realize that what they are learning about is Christianity*."
_
And this, Messianic Jews besieged in southern Israel


Thankfully there are enough decent people in the world who understand that dialogue is the way forward. Live and let live is such a good way to conduct yourself.  The good Christians of Germany realise this.
German Evangelicals Renounce Centuries-Old Mission to Convert Jews

"_The central decision-making body for Germany’s main Protestant church, encompassing 23 million members, passed the resolution declaring that Christians “are not called to show Israel the path to God and his salvation” on November 9 in Magdeburg, Religion News __reported__._

_“All efforts to convert Jews contradict our commitment to the faithfulness of God and the election of Israel,” read the resolution._

_It explained that since God never renounced His covenant with Israel, Jews do not need to embrace the Christian covenant to be saved._

_The abandoning of the EKD’s “Judenmission” – Mission to the Jews – began after the Holocaust, but the church had never adopted an official position. Now, as __Lutherans__ worldwide gear up to celebrate 500 years since Martin Luther’s Protestant Reformation began in 1517 with the 95 Theses, the movement is eager to distance itself from its founder’s anti-Semitic views."_


_

_


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## Hyoho (Feb 19, 2017)

Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes.

As far as Japanese Martial Arts (Budo) goes it certainly does not need Christianity. It has its own educational/philosophical precepts.

I will let those the do Chinese arts answer for themselves.


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## Steve (Feb 19, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes.
> 
> As far as Japanese Martial Arts (Budo) goes it certainly does not need Christianity. It has its own educational/philosophical precepts.
> 
> I will let those the do Chinese arts answer for themselves.


There is room, I think, for a style that originated in Japan to evolve in another country into something no longer Japanese.  For example, we can see the Japanese roots of Brazilian jiu jitsu, but I don't think it's a Japanese art any more,  perhaps Christian karate is another example.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2017)

Steve said:


> Yeah, if this were a thread to explain more about a religion, that's interesting,   However, this frankly feels like talking to the guys with a life sized cross outside the movie theater handing out flyers.   It's weirdly out of context.  I think I'll leave this thread to you guys.



It is a thread on how people think.  Which i always find fascinating.

Especially when they don't think the same as me.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes.
> 
> As far as Japanese Martial Arts (Budo) goes it certainly does not need Christianity. It has its own educational/philosophical precepts.
> 
> I will let those the do Chinese arts answer for themselves.



Yeah but Christianity needs to Christianise these activities if they want to participate.

Like a vegan at a barbecue.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but Christianity needs to Christianise these activities if they want to participate.
> 
> Like a vegan at a barbecue.


Do they need to Christianize them (most Christians don't seem to think so), or just not participate in a way that violates their personal ethos (like a vegan at a barbecue)?

Mind you, I don't see an issue with them Christianizing these activities, if that best fits their needs. It doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not their audience.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Do they need to Christianize them (most Christians don't seem to think so), or just not participate in a way that violates their personal ethos (like a vegan at a barbecue)?
> 
> Mind you, I don't see an issue with them Christianizing these activities, if that best fits their needs. It doesn't appeal to me, but I'm not their audience.



Stryper.






Showing my age here.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Stryper.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And I showed mine because I had to listen - haven't heard that in ages.


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## drop bear (Feb 19, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And I showed mine because I had to listen - haven't heard that in ages.



And I am pretty confident you name a thing. I can find someone who has a christionized version.

Someone is enough into this idea to support the market.


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2017)

Hyoho said:


> Looks like the post has been opened up by the OP just to spam religious quotes



I think you are partly right but the main reason I think is the need by the OP to bring more people to his particular beliefs. His group is evangelical meaning that's what they do. They won't be happy until we all and I mean all, believe as they do. I'm sure they mean well but I believe a stealth approach will not end well. If you live a good life, you are a good person who cares for others it will be noticed and people will want to emulate you, you don't need to preach at people, you don't need to insist that you and only you are right, that all unbelievers are going to hell to burn forever. In the case of the so called Messianic Jews, I believe they should have the courage of their convictions and stand up as Christians, and be proud of that. I'm all for chatting about our various beliefs, I've had some very nice exchanges on here without rancour or sermonising BUT


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## granfire (Feb 19, 2017)

TSDTexan said:


> Your opinion is respected.
> However, it is my experience that God of the bible is in fact real.
> 
> The way the bible records it. Lucifer was created perfect, but using his own freewill chose the path of rebellion.
> ...




well, if God is almighty, I don't have to fear Satan.
If I have to fear Satan, God isn't almighty.....

So in essence, god having created evil, Satan isn't but another face of him...

regardless, finding myself reverting to the Good God of my childhood, I generally do not prescribe to organized religion. There is too much tail chasing involved, trying to explain 'God', or why one has to worship this particular way, and go to hell any other way. 

And last: we are but a spec of dust, sitting on a slightly bigger speck of dust, careening though the vastness of space. 
And you try to explain that religion is all this?!

Not to mention that the bible has been rewritten many times, and the most fervent thumpers have no idea what it really means, as non ever learned a 2nd language, let alone ancient Greek and Hebrew, to read the source material without the translator's interpretation....


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 19, 2017)

granfire said:


> well, if God is almighty, I don't have to fear Satan.
> If I have to fear Satan, God isn't almighty.....
> 
> So in essence, god having created evil, Satan isn't but another face of him...
> ...


I actually enjoy discussing religion with people, so long as they make cogent arguments. My biggest headache is when a Christian gets hung up on a specific word used in their Bible. I've had some say, "right there, it says 'shall', and there's a reason that word was used." Those folks seem ignorant of the fact that the word "shall" never appears in the original text, since it's an English word.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2017)

Thread locked pending staff review.


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## Grenadier (Feb 22, 2017)

*Admin's Note:*

Ladies and Gentlemen...

This thread has been closed due to the fact that it has already veered heavily into the area of religion, politics, etc.  Such material isn't really appropriate for here, and if you wish to discuss such things, there are plenty of other forums that the Forum Foundry actively supports that would be perfectly appropriate to use for that purpose.  

US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum


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