# Open Letter to Mr. Billings



## glad2bhere (Jul 29, 2004)

Dear Mr. Billings: 

I am writing to express my support for your closing the thread regarding the promotion of Master Pelligrini following the embarrassing and counter-productive behavior of the participants. As a practitioner of the Hapkido arts it is also my responsibility to point out a very distressing trend in the Arts which was demonstrated on that same thread and is in serious need of address. 

Reviewing interactions on a number of Nets including DOJANG DIGEST, E-BUDO, KHF website, SABAKI, AIKIDO JOURNAL, BUDO-SEEK and you own MARTIAL-TALK a disturbing pattern can be seen. In this pattern, an abreaction to an alternate opinion occurs. In and of itself this is not notable. However, the response, fed by intolerance, or mean-spiritedness can often include charges of outrageous proportions. Certainly others can work to cool the hotter heads and that is all to the good. My concern is that once those outrageous statements are made on a public forum the damage they may do as unsubstantiated statements continues long after things have simmered down. I mention, for example, that Kevin Sogor was identified in the various exchanges, and I was implicated as being less than supportive (perhaps even defamatory?) regarding Kevin in an e-mail to Hal Whalen. I took the opportunity to specifically address that issue and rather than substantiate his statement Hal left the exchange. In like manner, Mike (Tomlinson) made statements regarding me and I answered those statements. However, rather than retract his points, MIke simply left the discussion. 

I write this letter to you not to ask that you become the guardian of our bad behavior and save us from ourselves. Rather I am asking your input, comments, views etc, how a Net such as Martial Talk can avoid being a venue for such character assasination and what measures might be taken to address such unsubstantiated defamation once it has occurred. 

I think it is fair to say that others may want to look at this string and pass it by and thats understandable. This is not comfortable material to discuss. However, we Hapkido practitioners have experienced one black-eye after another these last few years, and no small amount of that damage has come from unsubstantitated statements made from cover of protected venues, or in the manner of "hit-and-run" sorts of posts which are often anonymous, vituperative and commonly both. Your input regarding this pattern of behavior and its damage to the Hapkido arts would be appreciated. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Jul 29, 2004)

Greetings,

I followed the thread Bruce is talking about and unfortunatly the petty bickering was immature on all parties. 

Yes there has been previous problems in the Hapkido community the last year that involved many of us, but we all should try extra hard to move to higher ground.

I don't care who's right or wrong nor I'm I blaming anyone, just looking in from the outside it's bad behavior for Martial Arts Masters, Instructors etc. to act out like that and it looks bad to all watching.

I think any personal disagreements should be handled privately and the moderator should shut it down as soon as things deteriorate.


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## glad2bhere (Jul 29, 2004)

Dear Stuart: 

Just to be clear that we are talking about the same thing in this string. What I am not speaking of are personalities. I only used the ones I did in my previous post to provide examples of the behavior I am speaking of. It is, in fact, the *behavior* I am most concerned about. As I write this post I am thinking an interaction in which a person made a statement about Master JR West and Master West duly contacted that person directly and the individual corrected his comment. All well and good. On another occasion sometime after that, a rather unsavory person likewise made a comment regarding Master West and once again this other person discontinued making his comments. The difference was that in the second case the comment was NOT recanted but rather allowed to simply drift off into history. Certainly that was Master Wests' choice and probably to his credit but I am left to consider the damage done when such comments are allowed to go unaddressed. 

Using this post as an example and our present interaction I could make some disparaging remarks about you, your practice, your behavior with your students, sexual preferences, business practices etc etc etc and none of it need be substantiated. And whether I ever posted again or not the damage is done. 

Quite recently the folks over on the WARRIOR-SCHOLAR Net have begun to require membership to address the frequency of outlandish and provocative "drive-by" posts. The folks over at the KHF website have yet to correct things even after some of the ugliness over there. There are also matters such as viruses which have been observed to be sent along the lines of mailings and net participation. Stuart, I too would like to take the "high road" but as I said a bit ago this stuff needs to be addressed and I think we can start by stopping our pretense that it is not going on or that if we ignore it that it will go away. Thoughts? Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Jul 29, 2004)

Dear Bruce,

Any negitive comments or personal attacks if you will should be rightly be taken up directly with that person and not in this type of forum. 

As you said the damage is already done once posted in public. 

From this point foward all should agree to the same ethics and conduct on this board and others.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 29, 2004)

Bruce,
  As the Owner of this forum, I can answer your question "how a Net such as Martial Talk can avoid being a venue for such character assasination and what measures might be taken to address such unsubstantiated defamation once it has occurred." in 2 parts.

Part 1 - Follow the posted rules.
Part 2 - We skip the warning, play nice, suspensions, etc and go straight to banning those who either are too stupid, ignorant or egotistic to follow those rules.

This may piss some folks off, and to be honest, I'm not too sure I care anymore.
I opened a place for people to talk about the arts.  
To share information.
To meet each other.
To learn.
To Grow.

For the most part, that mission has succeeded.

A small, vocal minority though seem to see our relaxed attitude as an open door to bring their dirty laundry here from other boards.  
To snipe, and nitpick and take shots at others.

Here is MartialTalk Rule 1 "*Treat others as you would wish to be treated.*"

Based on several individuals behavior, I have to conclude they like being treated like crap, because they hide behind the keyboard and swing their egos and attitudes like a bastard sword in a melee.

I don't care about the politics, the egos, the crap, etc thats gone on.  Leave the battles you've had on other boards there, and come here to share your knowledge of the arts.  Make contacts, book seminars, share advice.

But leave the bullcrap out.

We're tired of it.

We are currently looking at a few key PITA areas and deciding if the headaches the vocal minority give us are worth it.

KMA is one of those.

Here's the notice: Clean up your own area, else we role it back into the General arts area and start booting the major headaches, regardless of rank, association or how much they've paid into MT.

Remember...If I can be suspended, if 2 admins and an advisor can be suspended...do you think anyone is immune?

I'm not attacking Bruce here...this is for everyone.

Follow the rules.  It aint that hard.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?&threadid=314
*Be respectful of the other arts, and your fellow members.*

Good Day.


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## shesulsa (Jul 29, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> I don't care about the politics, the egos, the crap, etc thats gone on. Leave the battles you've had on other boards there, and come here to share your knowledge of the arts. Make contacts, book seminars, share advice.
> 
> But leave the bullcrap out.
> 
> ...


 To tell you the truth, it almost seems as though KMA are cursed with ill-feelings and in-fighting. I almost hate to post in the KMA forum anymore - even the simplest topic turns into a flame war.

  I do wish we could all just put our differences aside and share knowledge and turn KMA discussion into a positive experience.

  I re-read the rules and will do everything I can from this point on to refrain from non-constructive exchanges.

  Thanks for providing this forum, Kaith.

  Sincerely,

  Georgia


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## mj-hi-yah (Jul 29, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> 
> I opened a place for people to talk about the arts.
> To share information.
> ...


Kaith,

WOW...I don't know if it's the blue hair or what you just said, but you are a great guy! I tried to pay my supporting membership last night and there was a problem with pay pal, but your philosophy and your great choice in mods is worth my financial support! 

This is a great place you've created. I have made lots of contacts and learned a bunch and *giggle* had lots of fun!

Thanks,

MJ :asian:


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## Rob Broad (Jul 29, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Bruce,
> As the Owner of this forum, I can answer your question "how a Net such as Martial Talk can avoid being a venue for such character assasination and what measures might be taken to address such unsubstantiated defamation once it has occurred." in 2 parts.
> 
> Part 1 - Follow the posted rules.
> ...




It is because of this type of change that I came back to MT.  I am gald to see the way this place is run now.  It really changed for the better.

As a suggestion and it can be taken anyway people want to, there are a couple other ways of handling the KMA area if it seems to be a nest of problems.  Assign specific moderators to the area with 1 super mod to overs see the entire area.  And their rule is unquestioned.  Or move it to a paid section of the board, like Phil E More board.  Lastly have the members clean up the area as Kaith had already suggested.


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## Flatlander (Jul 29, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> It is because of this type of change that I came back to MT. I am gald to see the way this place is run now. It really changed for the better.
> 
> As a suggestion and it can be taken anyway people want to, there are a couple other ways of handling the KMA area if it seems to be a nest of problems. Assign specific moderators to the area with 1 super mod to overs see the entire area. And their rule is unquestioned. Or move it to a paid section of the board, like Phil E More board. Lastly have the members clean up the area as Kaith had already suggested.


Rob, I'm glad you're happy with the way Martial Talk is evolving.  That's why I'm happy to be part of the team here.

Specific Moderators are assigned to each area, and their authority is not questioned.  That is already the policy.  

I reccommend that this thread be allowed to cool a bit, until Mr. Billings has had an opportunity to respond.  The original post was addressed to him, so let's all just stay out of it for now.


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## Seig (Jul 29, 2004)

I do not presume to speak for Mr. Billings, and I think Flatlander has an excellent point. So excellent, in fact, that I will be locking this thread until Mr. Billings has had an opportunity to peruse it. He then will make the determination what to do with it. 

I would like to make a comment or two.
1.) If a personal attack is made, hit the "Report to Mod" button, that's why it is there.
2.) Bob and I are in total agreement, I don't care who it is or whether or not they ARE the Shogun of Harlem, if someone goes too far, I will boot their *** right off the board.
Sho' Nuff

Seig


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