# Home defense and your dog



## Lisa (Jul 28, 2006)

I own two wonderful "pets" not "guard dogs"  They other day, however, I was quite surprised when my 13 year old Dalmation whom I think is partly senile and my 5 year old little Shitzu were going ballistic by the back door.  Both of them were barking excessively and both were snarling.  I looked outside to find an telephone employee in the back yard.  He hadn't knocked on my door or checked with me to see if it was okay for him to enter the back yard.  My daughter's and I were in the house by ourselves and obviously the dogs did not like them man in their yard while we were home alone.  

I had seen my Dalmation get upset in her younger years but thought that time was long gone.  My little 15 pound vicious ball of evil terror was as I had never seen him.  I was actually shocked at how both of them reacted and impressed that the small stature of the little one didn't seem to phase him and regardless of her age and her arthritis my older one was seemingly ready to defend us against the intruder.

So this all got me thinking on how everyone here felt about their animals and if you train them to attack on command or just hope that they will come to your defense when and if the time should ever arrive.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 28, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> I own two wonderful "pets" not "guard dogs" They other day, however, I was quite surprised when my 13 year old Dalmation whom I think is partly senile and my 5 year old little Shitzu were going ballistic by the back door. Both of them were barking excessively and both were snarling. I looked outside to find an telephone employee in the back yard. He hadn't knocked on my door or checked with me to see if it was okay for him to enter the back yard. My daughter's and I were in the house by ourselves and obviously the dogs did not like them man in their yard while we were home alone.
> 
> I had seen my Dalmation get upset in her younger years but thought that time was long gone. My little 15 pound vicious ball of evil terror was as I had never seen him. I was actually shocked at how both of them reacted and impressed that the small stature of the little one didn't seem to phase him and regardless of her age and her arthritis my older one was seemingly ready to defend us against the intruder.
> 
> So this all got me thinking on how everyone here felt about their animals and if you train them to attack on command or just hope that they will come to your defense when and if the time should ever arrive.




While in High School I had a friend who trained and worked out at home and the dog wanted to play. So after a while taught the dog to avoid kicks and to attack the base leg to knock a person down. Being a Great Dane this was a nice trick.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jul 28, 2006)

My dog, and any I'll have in the future, are pets.  I'd like it if they'd bark like hell if someone was trying to get in, but that is not their primary purpose.  Attacking is completely out of the question as far as I'm concerned.  He's mine to protect, not the other way around.  

Jeff


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## Lisa (Jul 28, 2006)

I have to agree Jeff.  I have never had the need to train my dogs to protect but I always hoped that if I needed them they would be there to help out and I was impressed that they were so upset.  However, if the "intruder" said the word "cookie" their demeanor would probably change


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## Kacey (Jul 28, 2006)

My dog is calm and friendly... as long as I'm there, and the person who enters the house is properly greeted.  Otherwise, he's very, very loud.  A couple of years ago, when he was less than a year old, the cable repairman needed to access the telephone pole in the back yard, and when I didn't answer when he rang (I wasn't home) he walked toward the gate to go in the back yard and climb the pole.  My dog started barking so loudly the guy was afraid to enter the yard... what he didn't realize (because Sable was so loud) was that the dog was in the bedroom closest to him, and not outside.

Another time I came home from picking my father up at the airport, and when I walked in Sable wanted to go out, so I let him in the yard.  He barked to be let in and my father let him in, and Sable started barking at him, and it took me a couple of minutes to convince him it was okay.  Now, he has to see me greet people at the door, or he stands there and barks, unless it's somene he knows very well.  

I have given people keys to come in and pick things up - people Sable knows - and he's not happy about that, either; he barks and growls, but he backs up... and once they get to the cookie can, he calms down some - enough that they can get what they came for and leave.

Sable is a horrible coward when it comes down to it - but if you were confronted by 82 pounds of big black dog, barking and growling, would you wait around to see if he meant it?  I don't really count on him for defense, but he makes a great alarm, which is really all I want; I'd hate for him to bite someone by mistake... a burglar is a whole other issue, but I'd rather he backed off a burglar than bit one of my friends.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 28, 2006)

I never hav taught a dog to attack on command but i have had a few that would potect my family if anyone entered the yard they did not know.
 I had one that woul always interfer when i practiced in the yard, with a student i used to teach there, but we never knew for sure which one of us he was going to take  nip out of our rear end. I must say he improved my awarenes a lot because we never knew for sure where he was hideing or if and when he would attack


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## MRE (Jul 28, 2006)

My dog is a black lab/border collie mix we picked up from the humane society when she was 2 years old.  At 9 years old, she is as energetic as ever, but she is all pet.  She loves people and will only bark at them if she gets startled.  Otherwise, she would invite anyone, family or intruder alike, to come in and pet her.  However, she may not have been well socialized with other animals when she was younger, because she always wants to attack other animals.  We tried to train it out of her, but were never really successful.  So, if an intruder tried to get into our place, hopefully he will bring a dog or cat with him so our dog will make some noise.

Seriously though, if there were an intruder, I hope our dog would just run to the back of the house.  I would hate to see any harm come to her on my account.


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## pstarr (Jul 28, 2006)

I have an older large dog that's half Irish Setter and Half black lab...and then there's my pup that's a papillon.  They make plenty of racket if a stranger comes near the house but they're not attack trained.

I am.

   :uzi:


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## Eternal Beginner (Jul 28, 2006)

My large outdoor dog is for the most parts a large, friendly fur-covered marshmallow.  However, come near myself or my kids and it is a different story.  She has protected me from large dogs in the past and recently ran a bear off of our property.

The little one, well, he barks a lot.  I've never really seen him in action yet as he is still a pup.  But I know I'm safe from all tennis balls and small stuffed animals.


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## Lisa (Jul 29, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> While in High School I had a friend who trained and worked out at home and the dog wanted to play. So after a while taught the dog to avoid kicks and to attack the base leg to knock a person down. Being a Great Dane this was a nice trick.



That is pretty cool, Rich.  Easy for a Great Dane, however, a little harder for a Shitzu


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## Lisa (Jul 29, 2006)

pstarr said:
			
		

> I have an older large dog that's half Irish Setter and Half black lab...and then there's my pup that's a papillon.  They make plenty of racket if a stranger comes near the house but they're not attack trained.
> 
> I am.
> 
> :uzi:



I like that about my dogs.  To me, that is their job.  Let me know when someone is coming.  I figure, like Kacey said, if you have dogs barking on the other side of the door, would you take the chance and come through it?  I know I wouldn't.


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## still learning (Jul 29, 2006)

Hello, My kids have a small mix dog, and has taught them to be a responsible person.

The nice thing is anytime a person comes near the front door...our dog "Miko" barks  warnings.

We always know before the knock someone is near the front door.

We do alot of camping and fishing on the beach..."Miko" always gives us advance warnings of strangers approaching.

"Miko" does not liking takeing JUDO...so we let her "bark" instead...works!.....Aloha  (need verbal judo)


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## RichK (Jul 29, 2006)

My Uncle was  k-9 cop as I was young, pre-teen before cars, and I learned a little. Had two dogs this go around, one just died last month at 5. The one that just died people would get upset with me because I would kick at her. She loved it by attacking at my feet. I taught her that as she was a small keeshound and that would be the likely thing for people to do. The other one she is 1/2 shepard and 1/2 husky 85% black. My wife will walk with her before and after dark as she is highly tuned in to danger and lets someone know when they are not welcomed and to close. I have only trained her on walking and being alert, she picked the danger insticts up on her own. Pets can also be protectors. Taking her hiking is a big plus as she will wake up quiker than I.


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## Paul B (Jul 29, 2006)

My Akita is a natural gaurdian. She has been territorial and possessive of the Fiance' and I from day one. That's just one of the many cool perks about living with an Akita though..they say that to actually train them for guard duty ruins the dog's natural ability. 

I think she's finally done filling out at 3 yrs. old.She weighs a shade under 120 pounds and looks like the typical Akita bear. She only likes a few select people..but by god they are *her* people.

What's that? Gratuitous pet and Fiance' pic's? Done.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 29, 2006)

Lisa, it sounds like you have your own little Mr. Chew. :rofl:

We have a black Scotish Terrier.   He thinks he has to be the official welcoming committee.  If we greet people he is very friendly and wants them to scratch his back and then he runs and gets his chew toy so they can throw it for him.   However, if he hears someone outside that we haven't greeted, he will bark (sounds like a big dog).

We have never tried to train him for defense.  However, he is very inquisitive.  I can watch his body language and tell if he hears something that is not normal or if something is spooking him.  There has been times where a noise has roused him at night.  I am light sleeper, light enough, out of place noises will get my attention.  As far as defense, his best attribute is he can hear things before us and knowing his behavior, I can tell when something is not right.

On the other hand, I remember a small passage from "The Gift of Fear" where Gavin DeBecker stated that "Dogs do not sense danger, they read our reactions to danger."  He states they read us better than we do ourselves.  It got me thinking, I think he is right.  Just like many here have explained, their dogs seem to put some level of trust in other people who have been friendly greeted, whereas if someone causes us some concern the dog will bark incessantly.  Thoughts?

Also I saw on a dog show, or read somewhere, it was said "A dog's bark is not a threatening sign, it is the growling that is the threatening sign."


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## Lisa (Jul 30, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Lisa, it sounds like you have your own little Mr. Chew. :rofl:



Well funny you should mention that....


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## tradrockrat (Jul 30, 2006)

One quick note.  If you are planning on owning a guard dog, you better train both the dog and yourself properly, and a guard dog CAN NOT live the life of a pet - they do not go together.

Guard dogs need to be sheltered from unsupervised interaction with others  Pets need to be socialized at a very young age.

Guard dogs need to be taught that taking out an arm or a leg is all good fun.  Pets need to be taught that it is not allowed.

Guard dogs need to be taught never to eat food that isn't given to them by their master
Pets get table scraps from the kids

etc,etc

I've done a bit of handling work with Schutzhund training and let me tell you - guard dogs are a life long commitment, not to mention the legal liability should you fail to do your job and keep the guard dog away from innocents.  A welll trained guard dog is super obediebnt to its master only and would never attack in the "Pit bull" stereotype, but never-the-less, you ARE responsible for its actions.

Also, in the long run, Dogs are pretty protective naturally and while they might let the burglar into the house provided he comes armed with dog treats (and that's still only a maybe), they are usually VERY protective of you when you are threatened.

One last note- a single dog, unless it is super well trained to go for the lower extremities, is no match for a calm human.  Even well trained dogs will lose a drawn out encounter, it's just a fact.

Dogs may be the ones to run down a criminal and engage in the fght, but it's the police who finish the fight and cuff the guy.


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## SFC JeffJ (Jul 30, 2006)

After seeing the pic Lisa posted, I for one am just too darn scarred to bust into her place.  Heck, I'll avoid that entire block now.

Jeff


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## MA-Caver (Jul 30, 2006)

Great posts everyone ... cool pics... Paul B. that is a very expressive dog (and a cute fiance  ) but then Akitas have that reputation, so do Fiance' from what I heard uhh, being expressive I mean. 
Tradrockrat, umm I'm gonna have to agree to disagree here with ya on the description of a "Guard-dog". Your description is right on for a police or military type of dog. They're a one "alpha male" (or sometimes female) handler and view them as "partners" and not part of a pack. 
Guard dogs at home are different. Equally aggressive but a PACK or Den-type Dog. In the wild an alpha male/female will designate a pack member of various status/rank to "watch/guard" the den/puppies while the rest go out on the hunt. It's been observed that there is a rotation among the lower orders/ranks so that no-one is left out of a hunt (read: not fun... WORK!). 
A dog that is trained to take down a human being and hold them til called off yet can still be ruff and tumbled by the house kids is basically the same as this type of guard/den dog. 
The training is not as rigid as say with a full blown working police/MP animal. Kids are allowed to handle/pet/play with the animal so that it gets a sense of family and a knowledge of WHOM it's supposed to protect. By scent (and by observation) it'll know it's own pack/den members. 
I've friends with a family that bought a very VERY expensive doberman. Trained in Germany this dog had the type of training Tradrockrat, but it was also given training to be a house pet as well. Very unique, as I was able to approach the house and such and wait til I was recognized ( I was a frequent house guest and over-nighter), and then pet and actually play with this animal... wrestling and all that... but my friend for purposes of having fun (f-ing with me)  would put the dog on high yellow alert and it would stop and turn and stiffen and basically be en-guarde with me waiting for that word of attack from it's master. At that point I knew I had to just hold still and talk calmly to get my buddy to put the dog back on green then I could play and wrestle with it again.  Like I said... unique training. 

I think dogs should work for their keep. Even the small chiuahaua or poodles can work their keep by watching and barking their little heads off when someone comes near the house... but they can be trained to do so at certian times (i.e. night). A dog that has a sense that it's _working_ IMO is a better dog.  Otherwise they got an easy life... free food, free toys, free this and free that... all for just hanging around and keeping us company and occasionally acting the fool to amuse us.  Hell if I wanted an animal to do that I'd get a cat!


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## Kacey (Jul 30, 2006)

Well, if it's dog pictures you want - here's my ferocious guard critter.  In the first one, he's trying to get a squirrel off the power line (wishful thinking; it's about 20 feet up) and in the second he's using my leg as a pillow.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 30, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> That is pretty cool, Rich.  Easy for a Great Dane, however, a little harder for a Shitzu



They used to teach small dogs some tactics for shows that would have them attack the underside of other dogs. One wonders if that technique could be modified?


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 30, 2006)

RichK said:
			
		

> My Uncle was k-9 cop as I was young, pre-teen before cars, and I learned a little. Had two dogs this go around, one just died last month at 5. The one that just died people would get upset with me because I would kick at her. She loved it by attacking at my feet. I taught her that as she was a small keeshound and that would be the likely thing for people to do. The other one she is 1/2 shepard and 1/2 husky 85% black. My wife will walk with her before and after dark as she is highly tuned in to danger and lets someone know when they are not welcomed and to close. I have only trained her on walking and being alert, she picked the danger insticts up on her own. Pets can also be protectors. Taking her hiking is a big plus as she will wake up quiker than I.



Speaking of K-9, I have a friend who is a K-9 Officer with nice Shephard Partner. While playing with him at his house we were playing tug, and I would occasionally lift him up so he could not pull as hard. But he would not let go. Cause we was still playing.   Well one time he felt that I was about to lift him again and so he launched himself forward at me and placed his front paws on my front shoulders and pinned me to the wall. I let go of the rope and hugged him and told him he was a good boy. Well, his sister who is a breeder and trainer of dogs as well, gasped and yelped at the motions for she was surprised. I was connected to the dog through the rope and was not so suprised.  I also knew that the method of training is positive training with very little negative if any for the K-9 Officer. My friend was glad I had not denied him the rope nor yelled at him for it because of the traiing method they were using. So he had no problems with it but others did. Not me for I knew the dog and I were playing. 

And as some might say why would an officer allow his partner to play with someone like this, it was part of his socialization to make sure he was not afraid of large guys.


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## tradrockrat (Jul 30, 2006)

MA-Caver said:
			
		

> Tradrockrat, umm I'm gonna have to agree to disagree here with ya on the description of a "Guard-dog". Your description is right on for a police or military type of dog...
> 
> Guard dogs at home are different. Equally aggressive but a PACK or Den-type Dog...
> 
> ...



You are absolutely right, but it still requires continued training and work between the owner and dog - many people aren't up to that level of commitment.  Home defense dogs might be more socialized than the MP / Police dog, but I still think my main points hold true. 

BTW - it gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "no sudden moves" when you're the object of a Guard dogs attention, don't it?


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## MA-Caver (Jul 30, 2006)

tradrockrat said:
			
		

> You are absolutely right, but it still requires continued training and work between the owner and dog - many people aren't up to that level of commitment.  Home defense dogs might be more socialized than the MP / Police dog, but I still think my main points hold true.
> 
> BTW - it gives a whole new meaning to the phrase "no sudden moves" when you're the object of a Guard dogs attention, don't it?


Oh absolutely. Owners of their dogs HAVE to have the level of committment anyway if they're going to have a dog. Think about it what good would having a child do if all you're going to do is just feed it and bathe it once in a while? To me it's the same thing. 
If owners would just work with their dogs for at least 15 minutes a day... 15 minutes! Turn off the damn TV and computer for that long... then go back to creating a deeper indentation on your couch and computer chair. 
That's probably what the doberman of my friend's parents was trained... "Home Defense". From what I observed the dog was very well trained, mannered, respectful and patient. I could hold a end-cut off a piece of steak from it's nose and it'll just look at it. When I give a verbal "o.k." then it'll gently - gently take it from my fingers. Wonderfully trained. 
I have full agreement with your MP/Police trained dogs' points. 
And yeah, no sudden moves was the order of the day when that dog was on alert and focused on me. Remarkable though... ignored everything else but me. Didn't even growl or nothing just stood there looking ever so intently at me. 
I asked my buddy would he be able to call the dog back if he gave the attack command and then suddenly recend it. He said that the trainers said it was possible but not recommended. That they (the family) would have to be as committed to the attack as the dog would be. Kinda like a loaded gun. 
Sheesh!


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## Adept (Aug 2, 2006)

My family has bred dogs since before I was born, and my current dog is a 60kg Rhodesian Ridgeback. Absolutely lovely dog, perhaps a touch over-excitable, but completely useless as a guard dog. Unless you happen to look like another dog, all he expects when he sees a stranger is dog treats. If you see him standing at the glass door wagging his tail, you know you've got a visitor.

He doesn't like children though. Where we used to live, there was a small gap under the back fence, and the children a couple of houses down used to throw rocks and sticks at him. Little bastards.


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