# Question about joining a dojo



## Leomhann (Oct 7, 2008)

Currently I am enrolled in Shaolin Kung Fu (which I am learning remarkably fast). I don't entirely feel fulfilled with this type of training, however, I do enjoy the art in and of itself. I recently found a Togakure ryu near my home , which captured my interest when I started reading about Hatsumi sensei and his methods of teaching. Not only do the spiritual aspects appeal to me, but the principles and techniques of the art itself. So my question is (I'm pretty sure I know the answer but I'll ask anyways for affirmation.) Should I dual train with Togakure Taijutsu and Shaolin (since I know physically and mentally I can handle it) or should I choose one of the other. I have also found recently Richard van Donk's home video lessons. Granted I've read a good few conflicting reviews anywhere from people saying how horrible an idea it is to people saying how good it is. I do see how it can be a good idea to get a start and use it to reference from time to time if, you find yourself strapped for said time. Despite it being so expensive. I know nothing can compare to a face to face lesson in terms of quality of instruction. Which leads me to ask for advice. Any offered will be appreciated.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 7, 2008)

Personally I would suggest studying one until you at least reach Black Belt before studying a different one.
The techniques of one may interfere with your properly learning the other


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## Leomhann (Oct 7, 2008)

That is what I'm leaning towards also.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 7, 2008)

I am not saying that experience in one will necessarily hurt you in the other but you must have that experience over time or things get clouded when practicing.  Pick one study and learn until you have that experience or you decide it is not giving you what you want.  If you decide you are not satisfied after studying for a period of time it is then you must decide if you wish to switch.
Just my thoughts but I hope they help


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## Blindside (Oct 7, 2008)

Leomhann said:


> I know nothing can compare to a face to face lesson in terms of quality of instruction. Which leads me to ask for advice. Any offered will be appreciated.



I would go with even moderately capable instruction by a live instructor over the best video on the planet.  At the very least, you can't learn a MA by beating up imaginary people, you need to work with someone.

Lamont


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## Leomhann (Oct 7, 2008)

They do, it always helps to hear it from someone else when your own mind doesn't give clear signals. I'm no rookie at the martial arts, I've just never come across a situation where there are 2 traditional schools so close together. But I do agree, it is a good idea to focus on one to make sure you get the full benefit and understanding before deciding.


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## Kreth (Oct 8, 2008)

Someone referring to what they teach as Togakure Taijutsu raises a red flag for me... :idunno:


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## Leomhann (Oct 8, 2008)

Kreth said:


> Someone referring to what they teach as Togakure Taijutsu raises a red flag for me... :idunno:


Thats what I'm calling it for the moment because I've heard it referred to under so many names in Hatumi sensei's books, I'm not entirely sure what the proper name is.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 8, 2008)

i'd say to learn as much as you can, but what others have already stated makes a good point.  otherwise, you may just end up with mad skills but be all alone, in which case, noone will recognize your skills.  

it's up to you. if you have the time, energy or curious desire or strength to be without rank, go to...

btw, the art of Hatsumisensei is called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and incorporates 9 ryu.

j


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## Leomhann (Oct 8, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i'd say to learn as much as you can, but what others have already stated makes a good point.  otherwise, you may just end up with mad skills but be all alone, in which case, noone will recognize your skills.
> 
> it's up to you. if you have the time, energy or curious desire or strength to be without rank, go to...
> 
> ...


Ah, thanks, I'll have to remember that. As for people recognizing my skill, I'm not so concerned about that as me recognizing my own. I've gone my entire life with no one paying half a mind to what I can or can't do.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 8, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> Personally I would suggest studying one until you at least reach Black Belt before studying a different one.
> The techniques of one may interfere with your properly learning the other


 
Does Shaolin Kung Fu _have_ Black Belt? Just jerking your chain. I agree with the fundamentals of your advice.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 8, 2008)

> Ah, thanks, I'll have to remember that. As for people recognizing my skill, I'm not so concerned about that as me recognizing my own. I've gone my entire life with no one paying half a mind to what I can or can't do.



i can most definately respect that.  i wonder though if your opinion(stance on rank) changes after 8 or 9 years..?

i do think that having rank can save you alot of hassle.  but in essence, you are most definately right.  why take the easy way, huh.

j


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## Leomhann (Oct 8, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> i can most definately respect that.  i wonder though if your opinion(stance on rank) changes after 8 or 9 years..?
> 
> i do think that having rank can save you alot of hassle.  but in essence, you are most definately right.  why take the easy way, huh.
> 
> j


More or less I've been in marital arts for 15 years. Though 11 of that has been free lance and trying to create my own way. Traditionally speaking I only have 4 years total of formal training. Since just recently there have been 2 traditional schools open nearby, I want to see what I can learn from them. There really is no easy road in martial arts, which is half the fun.


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## kaizasosei (Oct 8, 2008)

yeah, i see your point. i think it also depends on how your community(ies) handle(s the issue of rank.  



;


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## Leomhann (Oct 8, 2008)

Good point.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 8, 2008)

what kind of Shaolin are you studying, for how long have you studied, how seriously have you pursued this particular study, and what about it makes you feel not completely satisfied?


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## mizogomo (Oct 20, 2008)

bujinkan is different urban ninja.........

bujinkan budo taijutsu


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## JBP (Oct 24, 2008)

I think everyone else has pretty much said it as well as I would...

I would be very suspicious of a Dojo calling themselves a Togakure Ryu school.  Only because it is one of the 9 ryu that Hatsumi Sensei is Soke of.  Even if you just mistakenly called it that and it is a Bujinkan Dojo, I would still scrutinize it heavily.

Many Bujinkan Dojo's have little or no standards at all when it comes to rank. You should thoroughly investigate _any_ Dojo you are considering joining. There is a wide range of quality. Look for realism (effectiveness and honesty), authenticity (tradition and lineage), and instructor quality (experience, integrity and communication).

As far as mixing in Kung fu, I think there isn't a problem with that so long as you do things one at a time.  Otherwise you could get overwhlemed IMHO. 

Hope any of that helps!


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 17, 2009)

> btw, the art of Hatsumisensei is called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu and incorporates 9 ryu.


 
You are only partially right. Yes this is one of the arts that Hatsumisensei teaches shich he holds the sokeship meiko for. However Hatsumisensei only holds the meikogeiden for one of 9 Ryus (which should always be capitalized for respect) which you do have correct in your post. Many practicioners will tell you flat out that practicioners of Bujikan will not learn all skills/gates of any of the Ryus as it is a hybrid system. Hatsumisensei teaches only his senior students the full ninjutsu system. I find it personally sad that there are many students out there that don't even seem to know what I mean by the gates and skills.

Budo,


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2009)

Heisaa said:


> You are only partially right. Yes this is one of the arts that Hatsumisensei teaches shich he holds the sokeship meiko for. However Hatsumisensei only holds the meikogeiden for one of 9 Ryus (which should always be capitalized for respect) which you do have correct in your post. Many practicioners will tell you flat out that practicioners of Bujikan will not learn all skills/gates of any of the Ryus as it is a hybrid system. Hatsumisensei teaches only his senior students the full ninjutsu system. I find it personally sad that there are many students out there that don't even seem to know what I mean by the gates and skills.
> 
> Budo,


 
Okay, this is an old thread, I know, but...

As you are making a point about the correct way of presenting certain words (ryu, in this case), we might as well get a couple of things straight. The term for full trasmission, or msatership is Menkyo Kaiden, not "meiko" or "meikogeiden" as you commonly use. Not even sure if that is a word at all... And I have never encountered such a term as sokeship menkyo, as soke is generally considered to be above the menkyo ranking system. However, as menkyo simply means licence, you could look at the scrolls as being such, maybe?

The techniques of a particular ryu are known as kata, which becomes gata when placed after certain phonetic sounds, I believe you are writing "gate" and "gates" in this place? I would also point out that Japanese doesn't feature pluralisation the way English does, so it is one kata, or many kata, not katas (or, as you wrote, "gates").

As for capitalisation of terms, you stated that ryu "should always be capitalised, for respect", gotta disagree here. When used as a proper name, in a part of a school, then yes, by all means, capitalise it (eg. Togakure Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Katori Shinto Ryu). But when used, as it was, simply as a word, then no. By the same token, we use the word school without capitalising ("Did you have a good day at school today?"), but when naming a school, that changes ("Where do you study?" "I go to Such-and-such High school"). Make sense?

I'm not sure what you mean when you say "Yes this is one of the arts that Hatsumi Sensei teaches which he holds the sokeship menkyo for. However Hatsumi Sensei only holds the menkyo kaiden for one of 9 Ryus..." Hatsumi Sensei is Soke of 9 separate systems, which he chooses to teach as an amalgamated system based on the teachings of each different ryu-ha, while focussing on one in particular from time to time. And while I'm on this part, the correct title is not Hatsumisensei, as it is not an extension of his name, but Hatsumi Sensei (2 seperate words). And I'm not sure where you get your information about what Hatsumi teaches "only his senior students", nor why you would feel it is "sad" that not all students of the Bujinkan (might be a typo, but I've seen it in a few of your posts - BujiNkan, not Bujikan) know all the kata. There are many schools which are so large that the students don't know all the techniques for them, either, in fact, in many classical systems, you may not learn the actual scroll techniques until quite a way down the path.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 18, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, this is an old thread, I know, but...
> 
> As you are making a point about the correct way of presenting certain words (ryu, in this case), we might as well get a couple of things straight. The term for full trasmission, or msatership is Menkyo Kaiden, not "meiko" or "meikogeiden" as you commonly use. Not even sure if that is a word at all... And I have never encountered such a term as sokeship menkyo, as soke is generally considered to be above the menkyo ranking system. However, as menkyo simply means licence, you could look at the scrolls as being such, maybe?
> 
> ...


 
I will say that I have quite a few typos and spelling mistakes up front - my spelling has always been horrible. My point is that I feel that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls. The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this. This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art. When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows. My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another. Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 18, 2009)

As of this time they are the only lineage with a proven link to Japan. (Bujinkan or any of the X-Kans)  That is until some thing else comes along and it *can be traced*.  Not out of the realm of possibility but no one has come forth with it that is teaching and or claiming to teach a Japanese system of authentic Ninjutsu.  Anyone who does not provide lineage is going to be questioned and that is just the way it is.  

*By the way the ninja arts were never made illegal to teach*. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Heisaa,

Many people are finding difficulties with your Japanese as you have said the spelling leads a lot to be desired.  To be taken seriously that would need to be corrected.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2009)

Heisaa said:


> I will say that I have quite a few typos and spelling mistakes up front - my spelling has always been horrible. My point is that I feel that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls. The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this. This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art. When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows. My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another. Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training.


 
Okay, then maybe you can help us out with a couple of things...

By "that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls", are you refering to the Bujinkan organisation being too large for the instructors to know the Densho material? That is a little hard to follow for me, so do you mean that, or something else?

"The fact that you don't know what the "gates" are - and yes I am using plural shows this". If you aren't actually refering to kata, what are you meaning by "gates"? This is not a term I have come across in Ninjutsu, Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, off-shoot organisations, Koryu systems, nor indeed any Japanese martial art at all. So if you could enlighten us, that would be appreciated.

"This is not the fault of Hatsumi Sensei he only did the same thing that Jigoro Kano did in his own art", yeah, not sure what you're talking about here... What are you saying Kano Sensei did? And what is Hatsumi Sensei meant to have copied from him? The only thing I can think of is Kano Sensei developing the Kyu/Dan coloured belt ranking system, and Hatsumi Sensei being the first to introduce a similar ranking system into Ninjutsu.

"When Ninja arts were illegalized he taught what he could publicly under the name of BujiNkan and then taught the rest to a small group of students he could trust. These are well documented facts in history. You also have other Ryus that stayed silent and chose to train in the shadows" Where exactly are you getting this from? The Togakure Ryu, arguably the most "ninja" of all the systems Hatsumi Sensei inherrited, was even used as the umbrella title for what would later become refered to as the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. And, as Brian said, the arts were not illegal to be taught, and certainly never during the time Hatsumi has possessed them. So the Ninjutsu aspect of his teachings has taken centre stage from the beginning, not exactly "staying silent" on these "illegal arts".

"My point is it is a very universal art that covers all spectrums from the most public to most private. An understanding of the "gates" was how I was taught distinguish one type of practicioner from another" Again, not sure what you're trying to say here either. This seems to be a very general statement that can be shaped to suit anything you might say, without saying anything at all. And what exactly do you mean by "gates", if not kata?

"Please do not get me wrong, I mean no disrespect towards BujiNkan or Hatsumi Sensei I am just saying that is not the only option for Ninjutsu training". No offence taken (after all, I'm not Bujinkan myself...), but the only verifiable Ninjutsu left in the world are the arts left ot Hatsumi Sensei by Takamatsu Sensei, which are currently taught in the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and various off-shoot schools. There are no others, or at least no others that have come out, even with many, many very well connected and dedicated people researching for them for years. And, yes, they really did want to find them. They just aren't there anymore.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 18, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, then maybe you can help us out with a couple of things...
> 
> By "that particular system has become too large that it has become to the point where not all schools are able to teach from the scrolls", are you refering to the Bujinkan organisation being too large for the instructors to know the Densho material? That is a little hard to follow for me, so do you mean that, or something else?
> 
> ...


 
I am referring to the eight gates that are your primary Shinobi skills:

*Ninja no Taijutsu* - techniques of unarmed combat and Shizen (natural) body movement.
*Shinobi Iri* - Silent movement and silent entrance skills
*Ninja no Kiai* - the warrior spirit and energy you hold inside thru shizen expression
*Ninja no Soojutsu* - Spear and Staff techniques. (Also covers multiple attackers).
*Ninja no Kenpo* - Sword techniques. Ken = blade & Po = Law. "Law of the Blade"
*Ninja no Shurikenjutsu* - Throwing blades. There are 3 throwing techniques.
*Ninja no Kajutsu* - utilizing fire. The art/way of Fire weapons. 
*Ninja no Ugei* - The art of Deception and Disguise

Maybe they just have never been broken down and presented in this way. I honestly think it is a rough statement to make the Hatsumi Sensei is the only living student of Takamatsu Sensei is very shortsighted and close minded. Yes, lineages can be traced it is just a matter of whether or not we choose to be that public. In the OPINION of SOME (I am not saying you or making any statements of right or wrong here) this was never an art that was meant to be public. Publicly if you do research you will find there is one young lady here in the US who does hold the densho for one of the 9 Ryus - just throwing this in as a point of fact. This is a whole seperate legitimate organization from Bujinkan (is that N really capitalized one person said it was one said it wasn't I am not part of this organization so I do not know) and this organization was created in order to give credibility to those Ryus that did not wish to be public. And yes the Anshu in question also holds rank in Bujinkan.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2009)

Okay, we're starting to make some sense here. Let's take this part by part again.

The "eight gates" you are refering to are not anything I have seen in any legitimate group, but seem to be a portion of what is known as the Ninja Juhakkei (Eighteen Skills of the Ninja), reformed as a type of Happo Biken. Can you please give us a reference so we can see where this has come from and verify the authenticity?

"I honestly think it is a rough statement to make the Hatsumi Sensei is the only living student of Takamatsu Sensei is very shortsighted and close minded". I don't think anyone has stated that Hatsumi is the only student of Takamatsu left, just that he was the student that Takamatsu Sensei awarded Hatsumi and Hatsumi alone the Sokeship of the Ryuha in question. There are a number of other students, such as Akimoto Sensei, who was awarded the Gikan Ryu but unfortunately died early with the Gikan Ryu reverting to Takamatsu Sensei, Kimura Sensei, Sato Sensei, and a number of others. But they all acknowledged Hatsumi as the successor, with most going on to teach their interpretations of the arts they had been taught themselves.

"Publicly if you do research you will find there is one young lady here in the US who does hold the densho for one of the 9 Ryus - just throwing this in as a point of fact. This is a whole seperate legitimate organization from Bujinkan (is that N really capitalized one person said it was one said it wasn't I am not part of this organization so I do not know) and this organization was created in order to give credibility to those Ryus that did not wish to be public. And yes the Anshu in question also holds rank in Bujinkan". Here we go. The only person I can think of that you are refering to is Christa Jacobson. She and Hayes are the only people I can think of in the US who use the term Anshu, am I right? Christa has quite a history, and by bringing her into this, you are not really helping your credibility. Sorry.

Oh, and I capitalised the "N" in Bujinkan simply to show the fact that you seemed to almost universally miss that particular letter when you wrote the name Bujinkan. That was all. It is not usually capitalised.


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## HeisaaReborn (Mar 18, 2009)

I am of kyu rank, I don't know what your ranking is but I have seen nothing of Anshu Jacobsen to question her credibility. I also know that she has been supported by Anshu Hayes. I guess that would go back to that whole lineage thing. I know that there are those that have certain beliefs but I do not share those beliefs. If that is going to make my credibility questionable than so be it I wish you peace. BTW- I am not of her school, but I am familiar with her.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2009)

Christa Jacobson has been a member of the Bujinkan a while ago, but has since changed direction quite considerably. I'm not going into detail here, butif she was supported by Hayes, that would be along time ago, and I sincerely doubt it would be currently so.

That said, do you have an answer for the rest of my questions? Most especially, do you have a source we can check out for ourselves on the things you have stated? You seem to be saying that the research (information) is quite easy to find, but it all seems new to us, and we have been at this, in some cases for nearly 3 decades. Can't bear to think that there's something we've missed, maybe you could help out?


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## Tsuki-Yomi (Mar 18, 2009)

I'm only a Shodan in the Bujinkan, but I have never heard the gate term used either.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 18, 2009)

Jacobson Anshu is a Yondan under Dan Buckley, who is no longer with the Bujinkan. To my knowledge Dan now runs Bansenshukai Ninjutsu, which actually from the vids I have seen, he is a pretty skilled guy.

I may have an opppotunity to meet Jacobson at the upcoming Jinichi Kawakmai seminar in Jersey as she was invited. I see more the Tomo Ryu Shinobijutsu as having prominance in her art, of which I don't know anything about it.

I've trained with over 20 independent styles at various events etc, I also have not heard of the 8 gates.

I have not met Jacobson, I have shared some emails with her and get a monthly newsletter. She is very dedicated to what it is that she does, I will give her that. Very thorough and researched reads. Video, that can be very subjective. She looks skilled. I would make more a judgement when seeing and speaking with her. Just on that level of course. I am not a historian.

Chris, thanks for your posts you put it in a very clear way.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 18, 2009)

What is it about these art that create so many "I'm a ninja ryu too!" groups? 

Over 20 independent styles?  Does this happen to other arts? 

Are there 20+ independent styles of Epak? 

Or 20+ independent styles of South Mantis,   etc?    

Or is it by and large just a bunch of Douchebags who may or may not be great artists capitalizing on "ninja" to gain notoriety and make money?


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 18, 2009)

> Are there 20+ independent styles of Epak?


More than that, the only common factor is Ed Parker.


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## shesulsa (Mar 18, 2009)

Ladies and gentlemen, please remember to keep the conversation polite, respectful and keep to the topic of the thread please.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## Bujingodai (Mar 18, 2009)

Wow,
Cryo I have never disrespected you. A douchebag, no most of them that I have met I wouldn't call that.
Mislead maybe.

cripes I am sorry I entered to the discussion.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 19, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Wow,
> Cryo I have never disrespected you. A douchebag, no most of them that I have met I wouldn't call that.
> Mislead maybe.
> 
> cripes I am sorry I entered to the discussion.



Dave,

I do not think that cryozombie meant disrespect to you but instead why do people feel a need to create some thing and then place the label on it as *ninjutsu*.  That is the crux of the issue here.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 19, 2009)

I am going to be careful with what I say here in future. 
The majority of people that did their own thing that I am aware of came from the Ninjutsu camp, mostly being X Kan. 90% of them didn't capatilize on the name of the art itself so they felt that was what they were doing. Or at the very least it was the closest to describing the spirit of what they were doing.
Hatsumi has the rights to the word Bujinkan and the ryu ha that is the soke of.
Ninjutsu is a word, like car. He does not own the word. So some use the word to describe their thing.

The reason to be a douchebag is not always so nefarious.
Lets also understand there are lots of "legit" practitioner that capitalize on the name as well.

I myself would love to capitalize on it, I could move it out of my basement. 

It was a generalized statement. I have met far more douchebags that are taking advantage in the legit systems than the indies anyday.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 19, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Ninjutsu is a word, like car. He does not own the word. So some use the word to describe their thing.



you are right about that. The point of contention is that the word is misused.
It's like car is a  perfectly good word that everybody can use. But calling a bike a car is wrong.
And if people are looking for a car, and the bike owner manages to sell them a bike by calling it a car (the customer doesn't know any better) then that makes the seller a fraud.

Now about the ryuha that was mentioned. Unless the teacher holds a menkyo kaiden in said ryu, he has no business teaching that ryuha outside of an X-kan while using that name. So if the matter of lineage is not legit, then the teacher is a fraud.

And even if the teacher holds a menkyo kaiden for said ryuha, if he starts making changes without being the soke, or wants to tear away from the soke, he has to follow certain naming conventions. For example, the Togakure Ryu that is taught in Genbukan is named Togakure Ryu Tanemura-ha


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## Bujingodai (Mar 19, 2009)

Yes of course you are correct, if someone is teaching something that is not remotely attached to Ninjutsu they should call it something else.

And again correct about the name and the usage of ryu ha. I actually know few independents that teach or claim to teach and rank in the ryu ha that Hatsumi is the Soke of.

For arguements sake, Mark Grove teaches Kuroi Katori Ryu Ninjutsu. I am not arguing the validity but he is not awarding rank in say Togakure Ryu. That would be fraud. And not asking to stat a discussion of him.

Now, as part of this discussion the topic of Anshu Christa Jacobson comes up, now she has a Yondan in BBT. However I don't know if she is touting and ranking people in that specifically to my knowledge she is not. It is a part of her own resume and she ranks people in Budo Ryu, of which I know little of.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 19, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> Now about the ryuha that was mentioned. Unless the teacher holds a menkyo kaiden in said ryu, he has no business teaching that ryuha outside of an X-kan while using that name.


 
This part of your statement I dissagree with. Menkyo Kaiden are pretty rare, but one can be given master's licences with permission to instruct. 

Other than that I pretty much agree for the most part.

Now, I think if you have competant MASTER LEVEL training (regardless of whether you were given formal rank or not) in a legitimate ninjutsu system (i.e. the Takamatsu traditions) but you want to change certain things I think you could be considered a legitimate system. I personally think that any Japanese martial art that has traditional methods of stealth, espionage, and other "ninja-ish" tactics could be considered an authentic ninja art. Feel free to disagree though.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Just to add to Himura's comment, Menkyo Kaiden was considered complete transmission of a system. Often when moving up through the ranks, the student would be granted permission to teach and train others up to the level below their current achievment. So at Shoden, you could teach the Kihon (Kirigami), at Chuden you could teach up to Shoden, at Okuden you can teach up to Chuden etc. depending on the particular ryu-ha syllabus.

Within the Bujinkan, it was established early on that Godan would be recognised as Shidoshi, a title that has been most often translated as "teacher of the warrior methods", but I prefer to translate as "passer of the methods/knowledge/tradition". Not exactly literal, butI like it. Anyway, the point is that Godan is not Menkyo Kaiden, but teaching is permitted at this level. 

Where the Menkyo Kaiden holder differs is that they are permitted to make any alteration to their expression of the art they see fit, and can pass it on in any way they believe is best. I would say that unless someone is a Menkyo Kaiden holder, they are not permitted to licence someone in a particular ryu, but they can teach and often promote up to a certain level. With that said, some schools get very  strict on only allowing promotion with the current heads' permission, and some teachers only promote with the heads' blessing as a show of deferance and respect.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 19, 2009)

Thanks for the correction.

From what I understand you are right that different teaching licenses can be issued, but I don't know if the license to teach is still valid if you leave the ryu. I know that the menkyo kaiden indicates mastership and allows you to teach the whole of it, no matter if you leave the ryu or not. would the same apply to lower menkyo in that case? (obviously not the whole system, but the part covered by the license)


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## Chris Parker (Mar 19, 2009)

Tricky. That kind of depends on how vindictive the head of the system is. The way it seems to have been, the students would only stay with an incomplete licence holder (for want of a better term) if they showed remarkable skill, or were moving into their own art (rare, but not unheard of). Often, they would simply up and leave for another teacher. Remember, though, all the ranking, including that of the students, can be revoked if hamon is applied.

To give an example, Hatsumi Sensei in his youth was spending an exorbitant amount each month to learn "a certain kobudo from a teacher". This teacher was Ueno Takashi, and he taught Hatsumi Bokuden Ryu Jujutsu, and Asayama Ichiden Ryu Taijutsu. Hatsumi was such a quick study that he achieved Menkyo Kaiden in Asayama Ichiden within three years. At that point (according to Hatsumi), Ueno Sensei told him that he had no more that he could teach, Hatsumi would need to meet Ueno's teacher. That lead to the meeting of Hatsumi and Takamatsu for the first time. As a result, Takamatsu told Hatsumi that if he wanted to learn from him, he must accept hamon for the systems Ueno had taught him.

As I said, that is Hatsumi's version. There are others, which indicate that Ueno was more a colleague of Takamatsu who shared their martial knowledge together, rather than Ueno being Takamatsu's student. Other versions have Ueno being furious with Hatsumi, and issuing hamon for other reasons, which don't need to be entered into here.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 19, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Wow,
> Cryo I have never disrespected you. A douchebag, no most of them that I have met I wouldn't call that.
> Mislead maybe.
> 
> cripes I am sorry I entered to the discussion.


 
I apologise if you feel that was directed at you. I have _specific issues_ with a _specific person_ mentioned earlier in this thread who claims to be a Soke of thier own Ninja Ryu, and I just quoted the number you posted because I personally don't understand why so many people need to call themselves "ninja"... What does it accomplish?

Maybe I need to start calling myself the Pope, and teaching my Bujinkan skills as "Catholic Prayer Study"

It amounts to the same thing.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 19, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I personally think that any Japanese martial art that has traditional methods of stealth, espionage, and other "ninja-ish" tactics could be considered an authentic ninja art. Feel free to disagree though.


 
Ok Emilio.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 20, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Ok Emilio.


 

AHHHHH! I take it back!


Seriously though, If you go back to the kung maky ung ryu thread I state what I believe my criteria are for something to be considered ninjutsu.

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1108526#post1108526
it's post #45.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 21, 2009)

Here pick on me a bit.
I call it Ninjutsu. But I don't claim any lineage, other than the training I got from the Kan and other sources.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 21, 2009)

Bujingodai said:


> Here pick on me a bit.
> I call it Ninjutsu. But I don't claim any lineage, other than the training I got from the Kan and other sources.


 
Dave...

It was a pretty good video, and most of the techniques seemed good.  I didnt see much Ninjutsu in it tho... A lot of various techniques from some of the other Ryu to be sure... Didnt see much from the Ninjutsu ryus tho.  

I'm curious, and I'm NOT picking on you... I'm trying to understand: in your opinion, what makes it _Ninjutsu_ as opposed tojust _Budo_ oreven just_ Taijutsu_?


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## Bujingodai (Mar 21, 2009)

I think I call it that as that is where I got my training. I have never taken another art myself so I guess it could just be called Taijutsu or Budo.
Now mind you, there isn't an inth of what we do on this vid. If you are speaking of anything outside of Taijutsu. Mind you there was a small excerpt of tracking skills on that video.

I can assure you, I actually never sought out to start a school. It happened quite by accident. It just sort of occurred and kept rolling. However over that time, things improved and we developed our thing. But at the very least I didn't create a story about it.

I have for many years felt like i would change it to Canadian Combatives or something of that nature, to be honest. I am taking the next 6-8 months off as I am moving to the city. I am focusing on my other love Paranormal Investigation, that I have been doing for some time and is going quite well.
I am afraid the politics surrrounding the arts, even in my own dojo is enough to make anyone want to push the refresh button, as I need to

Hey for craps and giggles here is a video of all our accidents.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 21, 2009)

And no there isn't much there from the Ninjutsu ryu. I also didn't edit the video. I just asked for highlights to be in there.
Not to mention, I am not qualified to teach Togakure or whathaveyou so I am not going to highlght it as that.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 21, 2009)

Sorry more thoughts.
Now is that a comment based on what your opinion of what encompasses Ninjutsu?
Now are you speaking of movement such as tobi waza, if so we do that but it's just not for a video. If you are speaking of movement that would be considered aggressive in certain ways offensively, no I don't put that on their either. Taisabaki and angles being used, Sanshin etc etc. Again all used just not on the vid.
Now are you also speaking of the Ninjutsu Ryu ha that you know, well I can't teach those. So then you are speaking of your own opinion. I don't teach that. So our Ninjutsu may encompass other avenues and opinions as to what makes it that.

We do work and seminars on outdoor survival, lock picking, entering and evasion, strategic deploymemt, urban survival, exotic weapons, etc etc etc. And I have no interest in joining the army to learn it either. I've had some of them train with us and it's not always too impressive.
I think that is a brainwashed cop out.

So yeah I call it that, I'm not likely to change it. I don't call myself or anyone else Ninja. I don't call myself Soke, I didn't inherit the system.
So I am not lying. And I don't present this as anything else to a student. They know right off the bat the history.
Would you care to see some vids of the other indie schools at Tai Kai's?


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## Cryozombie (Mar 21, 2009)

I generally take an academic approach to the Subject... "Ninjutsu" being a specific set of skills taught by one of the 70 or so specific ryu, of which three are known to still exist, and bits and pieces of others are still known/presumed to be contained within the scrolls from some other arts but not generally taught.  

Military Training, modern lockpicking, etc are all SIMILAR skills, but to me, they are what they are... Military training, lockpicking etc... after all, I don't consider the average burglar or stealthy paintballer or the kids on youtube showing how to pick locks students of "Ninjutsu" any more than I would have considered most mountain bandits in feudal Japan ninjas... 

In short, I think its possible to learn similar skills, Stealth, Evasion, etc, and be Ninjutsu-like, but not actually be Ninjutsu, in much the same way I can take a VW Beetle and put a simliar Lambo body kit on it, but not actually have a Lamborghini.  Thats where I'm coming from anyhow.  Your milage may vary.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 22, 2009)

OK fair enough I see your point.
My training for the foundation was Bujinkan, so I guess it was all I knew then to another form of the art so the name stayed.
Opinions will vary.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 22, 2009)

Ya know I was thinking about it last night... Specifically Togakure-ryu and the principles it seems to follow. Mind you, I may be off base here, as these are my observations mixed with some insight shared by one of the Shihan who has done some seminars up here... The principle of Togakure-ryu SEEMS to me to be about NOT engaging in combat, but rather utilizing a "hit and run" strategy: ie, strike/throw/cut the opponent quickly in a manner that allows you to flee rather than fight... At least that's how much of the Bikenjutsu suff I've seen from the Togakure ryu was explained to us, and I believe I see that principle in the tonsugata (sp?) techniques as well. So, I would suppose if one is teaching their taijutsu with those principles and philosophies of the "ninjutsu" side of the arts perhaps one could say they were teaching "ninjutsu"... but of course not everyone would agree with this.


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## Bujingodai (Mar 22, 2009)

I agree.

Now I do want before certain people jump on  what I wrote about the other things we do. Lockpicking, one of my senior students is a locksmith. So we practiced it more for the "oh thats a neat little skill" than the hey I can make money cracking into homes. It has come in handy on  a lockout situation at least 1X.
Just before people equate us with roving bands of idiots and LARPers.





Here at this Tai Kai, we have Ways of the Winds, Godaishin dojo, Nindo etc etc


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 22, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> I generally take an academic approach to the Subject... "Ninjutsu" being a specific set of skills taught by one of the 70 or so specific ryu, of which three are known to still exist, and bits and pieces of others are still known/presumed to be contained within the scrolls from some other arts but not generally taught.
> 
> Military Training, modern lockpicking, etc are all SIMILAR skills, but to me, they are what they are... Military training, lockpicking etc... after all, I don't consider the average burglar or stealthy paintballer or the kids on youtube showing how to pick locks students of "Ninjutsu" any more than I would have considered most mountain bandits in feudal Japan ninjas...
> 
> In short, I think its possible to learn similar skills, Stealth, Evasion, etc, and be Ninjutsu-like, but not actually be Ninjutsu, in much the same way I can take a VW Beetle and put a simliar Lambo body kit on it, but not actually have a Lamborghini. Thats where I'm coming from anyhow. Your milage may vary.


 

Would you consider a samurai art that has methods for training spies and sabatours as a kind of ninjutsu? My teacher's teacher trained in a smaller koryu school called kyu shin ryu (not to be confused with a different kyu shin ryu found in Austrailia), and this art has what could be considered by me to be ninja applications because it has this training. Or so I've heard.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 23, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Would you consider a samurai art that has methods for training spies and sabatours as a kind of ninjutsu? My teacher's teacher trained in a smaller koryu school called kyu shin ryu (not to be confused with a different kyu shin ryu found in Austrailia), and this art has what could be considered by me to be ninja applications because it has this training. Or so I've heard.


 
Hi, Himura,

I personally wouldn't. I would probably equate it with something like Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, which is a very classical samurai system, yet includes teaching an aspect which they refer to as "ninjutsu". In this section, they basically teach some espionage (information gathering) skills, and infiltration. However, if you were to refer to the practitioners of Katori Shinto Ryu as "ninjutsu practitioners", they would most heartily disagree (and possibly get quite offended!).

The "ninjutsu" portion of their curriculuum is more theoretical, and based in principles and concepts, rather than the techniques we are used to. As a result, the art studied in Katori Shito Ryu is a samurai art, with aspects of information gathering. Oh, and for the record, the Katori Shinto Ryu shares a number of other aspects with the ryu of the Bujinkan, with teachings of Kuji and Ketsu-In, in fact, the same basic sequence is taught as exists in Kukishinden Ryu, and is founded in a number of books.

And thank you for mentioning the "Kyushin Ryu in Australia"... you know I try everyday to forget they exist, and often succeed. Oh, well.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 23, 2009)

so then what distinguishes in your mind a ninjutsu ryu and a samurai ryu with similar practices? Is it spiritual practices? The orgin of the art?

To me, a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2009)

Well, more than anything, the use and original practitioners define a (Japanese) system in this sense. In that regard, I am with Cryo, I just don't quite limit it to Togakure.

Togakure Ryu is probably the most "ninja" of the arts, but the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, and Gyokushin Ryu all have histories that give them claim to the Ninjutsu title (as well as probably Gikan Ryu, which along with Gyokushin Ryu came from Gyokko Ryu, itself originally refered to as Gyokko Ryu Ninpo, and possibly Shinden Fudo Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. Kukishin Ryu, in some of the origin stories, have mention of characters who are refered to as a "Kishu Ninja", either from Kishu Ryu, or Kishu Province). There is a very valid point of contention as to whether you class systems such as Kukishin, Gikan, or Shinden Fudo as Ninjutsu or Samurai (personally, I count them as Samurai systems), Gyokko and Koto appear to have been both at different times in their history, and Takagi is definitively Samurai. Togakure, Kumogakure, and Gyokushin are still listed as Ninjutsu ryuha, so I would say that if you aren't training these particular arts, then it's not Ninjutsu.

Probably the best indications for this distinction between ryu is the changing of the Bujinkan title from (originally) Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, to Bujinkan Dojo, to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, as well as the Genbukan's method of distinguishing between their ninpo curiculuum and the Samurai methods (Genbukan and Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei respectively). This shows that ninjutsu/ninpo is such because of it's history, as much as it's methodology.

So that brings us to how they were defined as such in the first place. Well, who used them and how were they used? Were they used by Samurai, acting under their lord, or as ronin, or were they used by mountain groups, not under the direction of a lord, basing their skills in the defence of themselves and their homes? This should hopefully help explain why there can be no "new" ninjutsu, as there are no ninja (in the original sense) anymore. However, there are ninjutsu practitioners, but that is different.

Oh, and I like the Shakespeare quote, but it's a little out of context. The full quote is something like....

"Romeo, O Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?
Deny thy father and refuse thy name
O What's in a name?
That which we call a rose by any other name
Would smell as sweet."

The context, therefore, is that Juliet is arguing that the name, although just a word, gives the popular perception of the thing. She then imagines a way to get around this problem, but is really just a fanciful, harmless attempt to get away from the reality as presented to her. Oh, well, she is just (nearly) 14, after all.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 24, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, more than anything, the use and original practitioners define a (Japanese) system in this sense. In that regard, I am with Cryo, I just don't quite limit it to Togakure.


 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not limiting it to Togakure-ryu either... I cited that as my example because it's where I have the most experience with actual "Ninjutsu" techniques.



Himura Kenshin said:


> To me, a rose by any other name still smells as sweet.


 
Ha, Chris beat me to it, I was going to explain how this quote actually meant that calling a thing somthing it isn't doesn't change what it actually is to what you called it...


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2009)

Cool. Yeah, it doesn't help that Kumogakure and Gyokushin have really not been taught much... but one day, hopefully! That does leave Gyokko and Koto, but as I said, thta comes down to personal interpretation.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 24, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. Yeah, it doesn't help that Kumogakure and Gyokushin have really not been taught much... but one day, hopefully! That does leave Gyokko and Koto, but as I said, thta comes down to personal interpretation.


 
Yeah, Me porsonally, I've always seen Koto's focus as breaking the bodys structure/position, and gyokko as focusing on Koshijutsu... not so much what I would consider Ninjutsu, but then again, thats just me and where I have been at with them...


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2009)

Absolutely. For me, Koto is a Ninjutsu art due to it's history with heads such as Momochi Sandayu, along with Gyokko Ryu. However, it has been used by Ninjutsu groupings as well as Samurai, so we could go either way with it.

As for the individual focus, Koto being Koppojutsu and Gyokko being Kosshijutsu, I see those as being the aspects of the original Ninjutsu systems that have been preserved. You may recall that arts like Takagi Yoshin Ryu began as a weapons-based system, coming out of (primarily) 2 arts focussed on Sojutsu, with the Jujutsu portion only beginning from the second head, who had some run-ins with the head of the Takenouchi Ryu, and found his Jujutsu sadly lacking. Later, when it came in contact with Kukishin Ryu, it dropped it's weapon systems in favour of Kukishin's, with Kukishin leaving behind it's original Jujutsu syllabus in favour of the Takagi methods (to elaborate, the modern teachings of Kukishinden Ryu Dakentaijutsu are either from an earlier branch school, or, as some think, constructed by Takamatsu Sensei to combat the more popular karate and judo that was around. According to the same theory, at this time, and possibly in conjunction with Takamatsu Sensei, Ueno Takashi developed his Tenshin Koryu system for the same reasons).

With Koto and Gyokko, both systems originally had much larger syllabus', including a range of weaponry. Gyokko was said to feature Bo, Tanto, Spear, and Sword (Tachi), whereas Koto was very similar, but had some unique aspects to it's swordsmanship, such as Mangetsu no Kamae (to collect rain in the bo-hi), and a left-handed grip (to make the opponent think you were an amateur. So they were originally ninjutsu arts, but most of that has probally been lost, only Hatsumi Sensei could tell you for sure.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 24, 2009)

1st of all, thanks for pointing out the error of my quote. I actually had no idea it was from that play.

From my perspective though if Gyoko ryu is a form of koshijutsu, then that means that koshijutsu canbe applied to other japanese martial arts with similar tactics and principles (though I can not think of any that I know of), Koto ryu is a form of koppojutsu so any martial art that breaks the bone alinement of it's attackers as one of the main methods of unarmed fighting. Therefore if Togakure ryu is a ninjutsu system because of its practices and tactics and purpose, then a similar Japanese martial art should be able to claim itself as ninjutsu as long as it has the history to back it up.


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## EWBell (Mar 24, 2009)

I think it is important to remember that koppojutsu does not necessarily mean just bone breaking, but also attacks with the bones of the body.  Either way, you'll find bits of koppojutsu and koshijutsu in a great deal of martial arts, but that doesn't mean the art can be called that.  If I remember correctly Yagyu Shinkage Ryu has a section of ninjutsu in its curriculum, but it isn't a ninjutsu school per se.  It is all semantics if you really get down to it.  Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu (koshijutsu and koppojutsu respectively) are said to have been the fighting arts used by some ninja.  Does this qualify it to be called ninjutsu?  Depends on perspective I guess.  I don't have enough experience to make that call, and I believe only a handfull of people can.  We don't know what the kuden might be at say menkyo kaiden level.  There may be more than has been shown that would qualify them totally as ninjutsu schools.  Has anyone ever asked Mr. Hatsumi or Tanemura Soke?  Mr. Manaka?  These are the men who would know.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 24, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> From my perspective though if Gyoko ryu is a form of koshijutsu, then that means that koshijutsu canbe applied to other japanese martial arts with similar tactics and principles (though I can not think of any that I know of). . .


 
Certainly the term could be applied IF it was used historically (during the feudal era) in reference to those other Japanese martial arts.



> Koto ryu is a form of koppojutsu so any martial art that breaks the bone alinement of it's attackers as one of the main methods of unarmed fighting.


 
It would be appropriate to refer thus to any other martial art IF the term was historically used by its practitioners to refer to that art.



> Therefore if Togakure ryu is a ninjutsu system because of its practices and tactics and purpose, then a similar Japanese martial art should be able to claim itself as ninjutsu as long as it has the history to back it up.


 
IF the "similar Japanese martial art" was historically used by the folks we today refer to as "ninja", then yes.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 25, 2009)

The other thing to realise, Himura, is that various schools may use the same title or term, but that is never a sign that the technical aspects are the same, or even similar. For example, Bokuden Ryu Jujutsu and Takenouchi Ryu both use the term Koshi no Mawari, but mean very different things by it (for the record, Bokuden Ryu use it to refer to the bulk of their Jujutsu syllabus, which is suhada, or unarmoured, and primarily unarmed, whereas Takenouchi Ryu mean it to refer to the use of various small weapons when fighting in armour).

So just saying that different schools use similar terminology doesn't mean they are similar in approach, and arts that are similar in approach cannot necessarily be described with the same terminology. And if this is confusing to you, you're not alone!


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 25, 2009)

Very good points by the last three posts +1 to everybody It seems to me to be a matter of perspective, but I can certainly understand and agree with all your comments.


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