# moderator?



## Enson (Sep 21, 2004)

in your opinion who would make a good ninjutsu moderator?

it would have to be someone fair and non biased. (sp?) someone that knows enough about the art to know if something is off.

i vote for... hummm?... i don't know.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 21, 2004)

We asked 6 people.
All 6 either said no (various reasons) or never gave an answer.
(No I won't list them, sorry).

Im my opinion, who would be a good choice depends on which of the 3 forums we are refering to.  Don Roley for example might make a good moderator for Traditional, however he would be a bad match for Modern. You might be good for Modern, but not Traditional.  General is a toss up.  Again, just using some names for examples here, no slights intended.

Traditional should be someone with either current or recent experience in one or more of the X-kans, or another acknowledged traditional school.
Modern should be someone with current experience in the Modern branches.
General can be from either, with a knowledge of the history and concepts.

In all 3 cases, an open mind, ability to research things, willingness to act in a professional manner (which means dealing with flames and heat), as well as being a regular participant of these forums.  Visiting and lurking aren't enough.  Active posting is a MUST.  They must be able to de-tach from the emotional and make the hard decisions.  Just because someone screwed up elsewhere doesn't mean they find our doors barred.  They must be willing to disprove the frauds but at the same time, squash the fraud busters. It is a -very- hard job to do.

For traditional, I would prefer someone who understands Japanese history, culture and language.  Ninjutsu is a Japanese art, with it's roots deep in that nation. Contacts in Japan are a plus.

For modern, someone in good stead with one of the modern groups would be ideal. 

For general, either or both of the above.

These forums are here for the exchange of ideas. That includes historical, cultural, technical, phylosophical, and ideological.  A good moderator will steer things, split where needed, nudge when possible, and eventually wave the big stick if need be. They won't side with one group and engage in factional warfare.

Traditional is good.  Modern is good too. 

Interested parties can contact myself and Seig.
We will evaluate your past activities here, how active you've been, how helpful, etc and let you know.


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## Don Roley (Sep 21, 2004)

The problem with your set up is that even now we see post after post by the same troll in the MODERN ninjutsu section on Japanese history. Right now the moderators could move those threads or eliminate them as soon as they see they were started in inapropriate sections. But they are not.

So if someone wanted to take over and really help in the traditional section, then the frauds would just go to the section where the moderator knew little about history and run loose there.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 21, 2004)

Don,
  I don't believe we currently have anyone on staff who understands Japanese, much less Japanese history or culture.  It's not my place (for example) to judge what is or isn't true. It's also never been out position to censor or remove such things.

If someone is interested in the traditional, they will look to the traditional.  If not, then they will look elsewhere.

Why is he a troll?  Is it because he posts stuff that is 'outside the established', is 'not the officially sanctioned history', or is 'just plain stupid' (like that atlantian bit)?

If we are going to deal with trolls, they must be trolls.  Not just presenting a different opinion.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 21, 2004)

I would like to nominate myself  "I secound!" said some random guy in the backgroud yea


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 21, 2004)

Read this:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12457


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## Andrew Green (Sep 21, 2004)

Is there by chance a Antartica ninja forum in need of a ninja penguin?


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## AnimEdge (Sep 22, 2004)

Fills out the app.


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## Don Roley (Sep 22, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Don,
> I don't believe we currently have anyone on staff who understands Japanese, much less Japanese history or culture.  It's not my place (for example) to judge what is or isn't true. It's also never been out position to censor or remove such things.



Are you saying that you cannot even tell that this thread started in the MODERN section is not appropriate and should be moved or deleted? How about all the other threads started to talk about Japanese history started there.

I can understand if you do not know the influence of Shinto on 14th century ninja, but it seems to me that questions about it should be in the section that is supposably devoted to the ninjutsu you can find in Japan.

The thing is, if you look at the posts of the guy who started the above thread, you can see that he takes the attitude that we have to leave him alone in the modern section, no matter how flawed his history is. So if you want an end to the crackpot theories, you are going to have to make sure that the stuff about the parentage of a guy born in 16th century Japan is not in the Modern section.


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## Enson (Sep 22, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Are you saying that you cannot even tell that this thread started in the MODERN section is not appropriate and should be moved or deleted? How about all the other threads started to talk about Japanese history started there.
> 
> I can understand if you do not know the influence of Shinto on 14th century ninja, but it seems to me that questions about it should be in the section that is supposably devoted to the ninjutsu you can find in Japan.
> 
> The thing is, if you look at the posts of the guy who started the above thread, you can see that he takes the attitude that we have to leave him alone in the modern section, no matter how flawed his history is. So if you want an end to the crackpot theories, you are going to have to make sure that the stuff about the parentage of a guy born in 16th century Japan is not in the Modern section.


i would agree that the above mentioned post should not have been in modern. in fact it should have been in general japanese.

the problem you find here is that some do not want topics to develope. for instance i started a topic about crossing legs in your style and then someone said that should not be spoken of there. the original post was for modern, but sometimes things just naturally develope into others.

with that being said i am also in agreement with threads on a certain topic staying on that topic. for instance there should be not mention of skh legitimacy or any other instructor if it doesn't pertain to what his view are on the subject. or every now and then another post comes on about sword when the original thread was on rolls. things should stay on topic.
peace


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## Bester (Sep 23, 2004)

I'll do it.  I know about as much about the art as one "researcher" here, so could easily qualify for Modern.  Heck, you don't even have to know anything about Japan to qualify for that.

For Traditional, get someone who lives in Japan.  That would imply they can speak the language, read it and be able to do the research needed to fill in the historical stuff.

No crystals though, pity.


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## DuckofDeath (Sep 23, 2004)

Why not make sojobow moderator of a separate Pseudoninjutsu section?  He's quite an expert in that field.


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## Don Roley (Sep 24, 2004)

If Bester will take Modern I will take Traditional.

For general, you might want to take a look at what Dale Seago has done as a moderator over at Swordforum.com. The European section of that board has a lot of flames wars and complaints about the way it is run. But Dale keeps his Japanese Swordsmanship section free- flowing and calm. Seems to me that is exactly the style you want here after all the problems in the past.


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## Genin Andrew (Sep 24, 2004)

Well for my 2cents, i dont have a problem with any of that, sounds good.
Dale is a respected member of these forums so i'm sure there will be little if any disagreements...anyone disagree with anything Don said?

-andrew


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 24, 2004)

If folks are interested in the headaches, read the link I posted, read what I wrote towards teh beginning of this thread, and PM or email (prefered) me.
Include why you want the job, why you think you'll be a good mod, and your qualifications.  I've had 1 person so far contact me, and I'm waiting on additional info at the moment to give to the steering board.

Some people who shouldn't apply:
Anyone with a very low post count, who hasn't been here at least 3 months, who has been involved in major flame wars, or who isn't here regularly (meaning at least 4-5 times a week)

We're looking for active mods, not passive.

For those interested, yes, there is training, a learning curve and a 30-90 day probation period.


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## Enson (Sep 24, 2004)

Genin Andrew said:
			
		

> Well for my 2cents, i dont have a problem with any of that, sounds good.
> Dale is a respected member of these forums so i'm sure there will be little if any disagreements...anyone disagree with anything Don said?
> 
> -andrew


i don't have a problem with dale in general or don in traditional but i would highly vote against bester. from what i have seen bester's post are not anything but a ploy to start friction with a certain modern poster. no offense against bester but i would not like to see him moderator in the modern section when he is obviously against that section. this was a quote by bester:


> I'd say unless they can back it up with proof, leave them in the fantasy-land that is "Modern".
> 
> If you are going to claim "Traditional", then be prepared to present proof.


 peace


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 24, 2004)

Bester doesn't have the post count, or regulararity of visitation that we seek.  I've seen a few glimmers of good stuff in a few posts, however Modern probably wouldn't be a good fit.  AFAIK (and he can correct me) he doesn't actually study any of those arts, and the profiles a bit, sparce.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 24, 2004)

Well, ya know...

My big fear is I would f-up somehow and lose my access to MT because of it... and I like it here.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 24, 2004)

The -worst- thing that's ever happened was we've removed the offender from staff.
They weren't banned.
We have suspended staff for going 'too far' and abuse of authority.
We have had people quit the staff.  Most of them are still active members here.
Why did they quit? Burn out.  Disagreement with the direction or requirements.  Felt they couldn't meet the requirements of the job.

Note- Those seeking ego-gratification, power, etc need not apply.  Those who think 'moderator' means pop in on occations, or chase 'frauds', need not apply.

If it seems I'm being a bit hard *** here, I am. I have to be.  I want to keep these sections, make them grow, and make them the -best- there are.  I can't do it myself.  I need a team that can work together, add their vision to mine and make something wonderful.

So far, we've got that in the existing staff. I want to expand so that we're also growing this section as well.

This means we're looking for at least 3, preferably 6 mods. 2 for each section.  The 6 will need to work cooperatively together.  There is no "I" in TEAM. 

I've noticed -ALOT- of Ninjutsu folks signing up as of late...over 100+. 

Lets make a place they want to call home.


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## Flatlander (Sep 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i don't have a problem with dale in general or don in traditional but i would highly vote against bester. from what i have seen bester's post are not anything but a ploy to start friction with a certain modern poster. no offense against bester but i would not like to see him moderator in the modern section when he is obviously against that section. this was a quote by bester:
> peace


Enson, please, I mean no disrespect here.  The truth of the matter is, this is not a democratic process.  The moderator(s) of this forum likely will not be chosen by popular vote among the members that post here.  The other thing that I wanted to mention is that irrespective of how you feel about Bester's ability to do the job well or not, it's really not very nice to point out what you see as his faults here publicly.  I've read a lot of his posts, and given him reputation, because I think that when he wants to post something meaningful, I usually like what he has to say.  So, perhaps I disagree with you on that point, but so what.  No worries on that - but let's not be calling others down either.  It's just not super groovy.


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## Enson (Sep 24, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Enson, please, I mean no disrespect here. The truth of the matter is, this is not a democratic process. The moderator(s) of this forum likely will not be chosen by popular vote among the members that post here. The other thing that I wanted to mention is that irrespective of how you feel about Bester's ability to do the job well or not, it's really not very nice to point out what you see as his faults here publicly. I've read a lot of his posts, and given him reputation, because I think that when he wants to post something meaningful, I usually like what he has to say. So, perhaps I disagree with you on that point, but so what. No worries on that - but let's not be calling others down either. It's just not super groovy.


point well taken. i apologize. i also ment no disrespect to bester. i have no personal problem with his opinions. once again i apologize for any misunderstanding. my post was not ment to be a personal attack of any type!  i... "digress" :supcool: 
peace


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## Kreth (Sep 24, 2004)

I dunno if I meet the post count requirements yet, but I wouldn't mind helping out with the Traditional section. I don't have the level of knowledge of say, Dale or Don, but I've been training in the Bujinkan for a bit over 12 years.

Jeff


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## sojobow (Sep 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i... "digress" :supcool:
> peace


 You watch your mouth!!!!!%-}

enson for moderator!!!!!!


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## Bester (Sep 24, 2004)

To Whomever 'dinged' my rep from this thread:

A- Is that all you got?

B- I was being Sarcastic, not serious.  Quite obviously it was lost on you.

C- Hit me again.  I enjoy it.

*Poot*  *Sneeze*  *Gag* Is that Elvis?!
(I vanish)


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## Bester (Sep 24, 2004)

Kaith - Don't worry, I was kidding.  I don't want the ulcer that will come with dealing with the couple of nutjobs that will have to be dealt with.

Enson - I have respect for the people with legit backgrounds and skills. This is true for every art I research.  What I don't have respect for are the self-proclaimed 'masters' who pull stuff out of books, movies or their own arses, make up a style, butcher a language, buy a 'soke-dokeship' and suddenly start teaching 'Ohio-Ninjizto'.  I also have little time or patience for history rewriters, and those who have seen "Pray For Death" a few too many times.  If the general consensus is 'fraud', and my own research agrees, then I tend to have little patience for them.  If an American guy is teaching a Chinese art with an Korean Name, and Japanese forms, well, I tend to think it deserves a "special look".  There is innovation, and there is bulldung. Most of those guys tend to be the latter.  The few true innovators are few and far between. In any event, this hybrid is not a traditional art.  Tradition dates back farther than last Thursday.  

FlatLander - Thank you. :asian:

If anyone wants my opinion:
General - Dale
Traditional - Don Roley
Modern - Enson

Technopunk and Kreth also get my 'vote' as they've both tried to clean up the mess in here. 

What amount of "interaction" do you expect say, the Modern Mod to have with the Traditional Mod?


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 24, 2004)

Send kaith the needed information if you want the job folks.
The comments here have been positive and shows that some of you relly might be good at the job .
We would welcome someone who is not afraid of headachs and has knowledge about the area


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 24, 2004)

We are discussing several individuals right now.  I'll be making some announcements shortly.

Anyone interested in being considered, PM me.  You can post it here, but if I don't have a PM with why you think you'd be a good choice, you won't be considered.


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## sojobow (Sep 25, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Are you saying that you cannot even tell that this thread started in the MODERN section is not appropriate and should be moved or deleted? How about all the other threads started to talk about Japanese history started there.


Shame on you.  you know that the inquiry into Hattori will reveal Chinese Parentage or Grandparentage which is not "Japanese history.



> So if you want an end to the crackpot theories, you are going to have to make sure that the stuff about the parentage of a guy born in 16th century Japan is not in the Modern section.


I just hope martialtalk does not make you any moderator of any forum.  Such a waste.  Just between you and I, there was no nation known as "Japan" in the 14th Century.  Therefore, no Citizenships by birth.  Why not explain to the Moderator why you use the term "Traditional" versus the correct term "Classical."  There is "Modern" and there is "Classical."  Traditional looks like something someone made up to try and get around legitamacy.  Thus, maybe we should re-address the title of these subsections while in the process of retaining someone unbiased.  Just my $0.02.  I'll go over to the Koryu area and check if my memory is correct or incorrect.  Let you know what I find out.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 25, 2004)

*Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.*

I suggest all those involved review the rules.

Sojobow - Dons on the list.  Deal with it.

1 reminder to all :
*A member who is rude, excessively negative, or disruptive may receive a warning or may be suspended or banned immediately. Suspending and banning is done at the discretion of the administration team. Any abuse directed at our all-volunteer moderation/administration team, including defying the moderators/administrators to suspend or ban a member, may result in an immediate suspension or ban. Membership on MartialTalk is a privilege, not a right.*

I, and the rest of the MT staff are very tired of the headaches.  We are going to be announcing 3-6 mods for this area shortly. This will make the 3 ninjutsu forums the highest moderator density on the site.  If this doesn't work, we will remove the section. We will be appointing 2 mods per forum.  We expect the mods to work cooperatively towards the common goal of improving, preserving and expanding these 3 areas.

Regarding the 'disputable claims' crap.
If you claim it, back it up with verifiable evidence.  Citing some dead guys deathbed words only spoken to your ear is not proof. If you are going to quote history, back it up.

In simple terms folks, if you are going to engage in these debates , write some term papers, and use college level citations to back things up.


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## Seig (Sep 25, 2004)

I would like to point out that those that are selected for the position will fall under the OPS Admin, namely me. I will work with you all, but if you feel you cannot follow my guidance and/or leadership, withdraw. Bob has expressed to me that he really wants this forum to succeed; thus, my reluctant agreement to the moderator density of this area. The main thing you must understand is that Bob and I are a team, we do not reverse each other's decisions and we discuss them all, damn near nightly.

Let's make this work.


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## GAB (Sep 25, 2004)

Hi, 

I am not wanting to go into a war zone but, I think a well regulated militia is a good thing, as long as you still have the citizenry able to own firearms.
I can't see that opinions if stated in such a way as to be in the conversation is totally negative, this forum has gotten this way by, from where it came, not to be totally controlled, I guess some areas are rougher then others. 

Kind of like downtown Detroit, or Washington D.C. etc. etc.

Some of the cities had to hire outsiders to see it from a different perspective,
I am suggesting not all moderators should be from this same section.

You should not have to know the total of an equation to have good information, or thought provoking discussions. I find the totalitarian approach not proper, we are still debating things in science that are up for grabs.

An occasional suspension does wonders, but does not break the back of the discussion. Rigidity is not the key, flexable but firm. 

My small contribution, not much I know, but still mine. Will I be getting a red point for this one?

Regards, Gary


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## Michael Billings (Sep 25, 2004)

Actually Gary, I tried to give you a green ... but it was too soon, so here it is publically.  Well thought out and in my opinion correct.  You could have a subject matter expert, then another Mod who focuses on "Process" (manners), in the forum.  That is how Senior/Super Mods and Admins deal with multiple forums, while not necessary being ranked in that forums art.

 You are also correct about 



> _*ORIG POSTED BY GAB:
> *_
> You should not have to know the total of an equation to have good information, or thought provoking discussions. I find the totalitarian approach not proper, we are still debating things in science that are up for grabs.
> 
> An occasional suspension does wonders, but does not break the back of the discussion. Rigidity is not the key, flexable but firm.


 We usually seek concensus and check out our "knee jerk reactions" with other MODS & ADMINS in a forum specifically for that.  We instituted the "Lock for Review" process to give us that time when necessary.  Those interested in being a MOD ... it is a pain in the ****!!!  Not a lot of fun, and Bob, Mike, Tess, & I will, and have, be all over you if you are abusing the authority.  Just an FYI.  

 Nature abhors a vacuum ... especially if it is between the ears (M. Billings)

 -Michael


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## GAB (Sep 26, 2004)

Hi Michael,

Thank you for information and the kind words.

I am not seeking, I am only mentioning something that I thought would help. 
I am sure that how you go about it will be well thought out, since you have given me some idea as how the admins. go about it.
Regards, Gary


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 27, 2004)

I have some configuration to do 'in the back' to get things rolling.  I'm waiting on a few replys to some PMs.  

Right now, I've received PMs from Technopunk, Don Roley, Kreth and Enson.
We are not considering anyone who has not PMed me as the instructions said PM, not Post.

DO NOT expect immediate changes, overnight miracles, etc.  Our policy is to bring mods in slowly, so that we can successfully integrate them into the team, teach them what they need to know to do the job, and resolve their own procedural concerns.

As they become more comfortable in their roles, the moderation levels will increase.  It may swing to a 'strict' level short term while everyone gets 'used to' the new active level of moderation. It will eventually relax again as everyone 'finds their groove' again.

This 'realignment' usually takes 1-3 months.  We will lose some members over this. We will gain some members because of this. This is normal.

Our goal is to be both a friendly place for 'newbies' to come for information and ask those 'newbie' questions, and for those seeking deeper information to find serious scholastic content, fellowship, training connections and more.

I will be discussing the new mods tonight with Seig, and expect to start 'handing out badges' mid week.  We still need someone for General, Traditional is full, and another Modern mod would be good as well. PM me if interested.

Thank you.


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## Bester (Sep 28, 2004)

Good mix. Good luck to them all. They will need it.


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 29, 2004)

First new moderator for the JMA-Ninjutsu forums now announced:

Technopunk will be moderating General Ninjutsu.

We will have more announcements shortly.


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## Enson (Sep 29, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> First new moderator for the JMA-Ninjutsu forums now announced:
> 
> Technopunk will be moderating General Ninjutsu.
> 
> We will have more announcements shortly.


congrats techno! i know you will do a good job!
peace


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## Cryozombie (Sep 29, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> congrats techno! i know you will do a good job!
> peace


Thanks Enson, I am going to try!


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 29, 2004)

Current Ninjutsu Moderation Staff:

General Ninjutsu - Technopunk
Modern - Enson
Traditional - Don Roley, Kreth


I would like to thank them for volunteering their time to help improve the quality and quantity of the content in our JMA-Ninjutsu forums. :cheers:

We are still looking for 2 additional mods, 1 for general, 1 for modern.
:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 29, 2004)

congrats to all


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## Flatlander (Sep 29, 2004)

I just wanted congratulate the new Moderators, I look forward to working with all of you.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 29, 2004)

poo i missread sending a pm as getting a pm, oh well maybe next time 
Go both of ya


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## gmunoz (Sep 29, 2004)

Congrats to TP & Enson!


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## Genin Andrew (Sep 30, 2004)

and Mr. Roley, congrats to them all, i'm sure they'll do us proud...cheers to the future of Martialtalk.

-andrew


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## Don Roley (Sep 30, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> We are still looking for 2 additional mods, 1 for general, 1 for modern.
> :asian:



How about Genin Anderws for Modern? You listening Andrew? You seem level headed enough for what will probably be the biggest hot spot on these boards. So send off a PM if you are up to the responsibility.

I would say I will do my best, but I do not expect much trouble in the Traditional section, and I have a very logicaly oriented guy to work with.


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## Kreth (Sep 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I would say I will do my best, but I do not expect much trouble in the Traditional section, and I have a very logicaly oriented guy to work with.


I'm fairly sure this is the first time I've ever been referred to as logical... 
 

Jeff


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## heretic888 (Sep 30, 2004)

Congrats, guys.  :asian:


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## Enson (Sep 30, 2004)

gmunoz said:
			
		

> Congrats to TP & Enson!


thanks! i will try and do my best, and keep a level head!


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## GAB (Sep 30, 2004)

Well I am not really into the Ninja aspect of the arts but I hope you guys can get it together, Good luck, I would suggest the first thing on the list would be to address Sojobow by his right name.
Regards, Gary


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 30, 2004)

Good point....has he ever offered it though? I honestly don't recall seeing it publically mentioned.


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## Enson (Oct 1, 2004)

i think he mentioned it on e-budo one time. he got dinged for not using his real name.

peace


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## Genin Andrew (Oct 1, 2004)

"How about Genin Anderws for Modern? You listening Andrew? You seem level headed enough for what will probably be the biggest hot spot on these boards. So send off a PM if you are up to the responsibility."

Thanks for the mention Don, It would be a big responsibility but i dont think i am the best suited for the job, i wouldn't be "active" enough, I think Enson will do us proud! cheers anyway.

-andrew


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