# Spear: King of Weapons?



## white mantis (Jun 14, 2004)

I have heared that the chinese called the spear the king of the weapons. What do you guys think?


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 14, 2004)

In kung fu there are four major weapons.

The Stick - the grandfather, is also the dragon.
Broadsword - the father, tiger.
Spear - the king, dragon
Double-edge Sword (Gim) - the mother, phoenix

It's not saying the spear is the KING of all weapons, and thusly is the best. It's just what they call it.


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## white mantis (Jun 14, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> In kung fu there are four major weapons.
> 
> The Stick - the grandfather, is also the dragon.
> Broadsword - the father, tiger.
> ...


Oh, okay so more of nicknames than titles.


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## RHD (Jun 14, 2004)

white mantis said:
			
		

> Oh, okay so more of nicknames than titles.



The spear is definately the king of weapons.  It was the number one military weapon of the common foot soldier.  It's deadly fast.  It's incredibly versitle.  It's relatively easy to learn.  Note that more two or more person coreographed weapons forms from almost every system are a majority of spear vs....(fill in the blank).  There's a reason for that.

Mike


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 14, 2004)

No one weapon is better than the other


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## RHD (Jun 14, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> No one weapon is better than the other



Well WLMantisKid, no weapon is better than the one that you (or anyone else) feels best with.  Each weapon and practitioner has their advantages and disadvantages.  What I'm saying is that the spear is consistantly the one weapon that other weapons are gauged against.  If I was to choose a weapon to work with and use for real...in actual combat, it would be the tiger fork. 

But go to any CMA demo that involves multiple person weapons forms and you will see spear pitted against other weapons more often than others.  I have personally seen at various schools the following:  Spear vs. spear, spear vs. broadsword, spear vs. 3-sectional staff, spear vs. butterfly knives, spear vs. double daggers, spear vs. staff, spear vs. kwan dao, spear vs. hookswords, spear vs. emptyhand (isn't that a terrifying concept?!), spear vs. long sweeper/2-sectional staff.  That's 10 forms and I may be forgetting some.  So yes, no weapon is better than any other, but the spear seems to be the one to test the others against.

Mike


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 14, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> No one weapon is better than the other


Right up until wartime. The sword is basicly a deuling weapon that didn't become usefull until tied to the end of a stick or rifle. :asian: 
Sean


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## KungFuWarrior (Jun 14, 2004)

A weapon is only as good as the hands that possess it.


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 15, 2004)

> Right up until wartime. The sword is basicly a deuling weapon that didn't become usefull until tied to the end of a stick or rifle.



When the battle got close and personal, I'd rather have a broadsword than a Kwan Do. It just depends on who's doing what with what weapon.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 15, 2004)

WLMantisKid said:
			
		

> When the battle got close and personal, I'd rather have a broadsword than a Kwan Do. It just depends on who's doing what with what weapon.


The spear keeps the enemy at bay but you gotta get closer to use your broad sword. Just like pawns in chess, if you get past the tip of the spear to strike with your sword you get speared by the guy next to the guy you are fighting. :asian: 
Sean


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 15, 2004)

> The spear keeps the enemy at bay but you gotta get closer to use your broad sword. Just like pawns in chess, if you get past the tip of the spear to strike with your sword you get speared by the guy next to the guy you are fighting.



But with long weapons you have to worry about where you're swinging it as well.

It's a case by case basis it seems.


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## clfsean (Jun 15, 2004)

Everybody makes a pretty good point, but also remember a spear is a flexible weapon, a short weapon, a long weapon, a cudgel, a thrown weapon, etc... It can pretty much be whatever you want it to be. The reason (IMHO) it's called the king of weapons is it's versatility. 

I've done a Northern system & now I'm studying Choy Lay Fut. I've learned 2 separate, unrelated forms named Mei Hua Qiang (Moi Fah Chiang). One northern & one southern. Not even close to being the same form or function, but both exmplify the things I mentioned above.

Just adding my $.02 in...


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2004)

I think *Touch'O'Death* is right. Look at the samurai--for battle, they favored the spear (yari) or halberd (naginata). The sword was more for dueling or if your spear or halberd broke.

Group-vs.-group tactics are different than the ones we martial artists usually focus on. Such tactics were an 'art' studied by samurai. Sayoc Kali still practices mass attacks (group-on-group). It's different--and so are the goals (defend a place or take another place vs. just getting away safely).


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## white mantis (Jun 15, 2004)

I must say you all make very good points but I'm with kungfuwarrior it's not the weapon that wins the battle it's skill.:duel:


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2004)

Well...to an extent. Some weapons represent such a step up in technology that the difference overwhelms skill (a samurai philosophical objection to the gun).

And yes, skill matters, but who would want to face a spear if they were armed with only a knife? Who would want to face a sword if they had only a yawara? Length matters too. That is, I agree with you, but within reason--even at a fixed technology level, some weapons can make up for a _lot_ of skill.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 15, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Well...to an extent. Some weapons represent such a step up in technology that the difference overwhelms skill (a samurai philosophical objection to the gun).
> 
> And yes, skill matters, but who would want to face a spear if they were armed with only a knife? Who would want to face a sword if they had only a yawara? Length matters too. That is, I agree with you, but within reason--even at a fixed technology level, some weapons can make up for a _lot_ of skill.


With that in mind which weapon would the most peasants be able to master in the shortest amount of time? Japan was not populated with samurai, they were the few, the proud, so to speak.
sean


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## StraightRazor (Jun 15, 2004)

The select fire, magazine fed, air cooled rifle/carbine is the "king of weapons".

Seriously, some weapons are "better than others" otherwise our guys overseas would still be hauling around spears, swords, bows etc.


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 15, 2004)

That's not a chinese weapon.


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## KungFuWarrior (Jun 15, 2004)

StraightRazor said:
			
		

> The select fire, magazine fed, air cooled rifle/carbine is the "king of weapons".
> 
> Seriously, some weapons are "better than others" otherwise our guys overseas would still be hauling around spears, swords, bows etc.





No disrespect man but I think they were talking mainly about malee weapons.  I will have to agree with you though if I had to choose any weapon it would definately be a gun(The select fire, magazine fed, air cooled rifle/carbine kind).  But as far as malee weapons I still have to say that no weapon is greater than the hands holding it.  For instance saying that a man holding a spear will always beat someone such as a samarai warrior weilding his sword would be a false statement.  The weapon alone cannot determine the outcome of a fight.


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## Dronak (Jun 16, 2004)

white mantis said:
			
		

> I have heared that the chinese called the spear the king of the weapons. What do you guys think?



IIRC, our teacher did say something like that, but was a bit more specific and said that the spear is the king of the long weapons.  I can't remember the reasons behind it, but he kind of backed it up by saying that there are lots of weapon forms designed to fight against the spear.  I think as mentioned, the weapons are grouped into types/classes and each one has its sort of "king" that I guess is the epitome of that class of weapons.  I think he said it was straight sword for the sword group.  I'm not sure if I have any more notes on this subject to look up though.  I'm going basically on memory.


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## 7starmantis (Jun 16, 2004)

Dronak said:
			
		

> IIRC, our teacher did say something like that, but was a bit more specific and said that the spear is the king of the long weapons.  I can't remember the reasons behind it, but he kind of backed it up by saying that there are lots of weapon forms designed to fight against the spear.  I think as mentioned, the weapons are grouped into types/classes and each one has its sort of "king" that I guess is the epitome of that class of weapons.  I think he said it was straight sword for the sword group.  I'm not sure if I have any more notes on this subject to look up though.  I'm going basically on memory.


 I have to agree. Each weapon is categorized into different classes and each has a weapon that basically contains all the criteria for that class. I've never heard anyone refer to the spear as the "king of weapons" but I can see that it is extremely versatile and like many others have said, there are many, many two man sets utilizing the spear. I think if your trying to choose a weapon you would need to look at what you needing it to do. As far as the spear and such, I don't think I will ever be attacked while having one in my back pocket so its qualities are more for fitness, history, and the ability to cross over into other "make-shift" weapons.

7sm


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 16, 2004)

I think naming it the King, the Father, the Mother, and the Grandfather has more to do with social roles than terms of fighting application. I cant think of any analogies, but thats what I gather from it.


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## arnisador (Jun 16, 2004)

More than social roles--which may be part of it--I think that the spear is suppoed to be especially good for some chi-related exercises (but my memory fails me on the exact way in which a shaking spear is related to chi development/projection/etc.).


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## clfsean (Jun 17, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> More than social roles--which may be part of it--I think that the spear is suppoed to be especially good for some chi-related exercises (but my memory fails me on the exact way in which a shaking spear is related to chi development/projection/etc.).


Energy development... check out Chen taiji, baji or some xingyi & bagua systems do "pole shaking" to develop jing in their strikes. General it's not a "spear" per se, but a really long wood staff that's not necessary made from the nice waxwood that will bend easily. Or if it is, at least it's got some heft to it to make it harder to shake it easily. You'd have to put some internal "umph" behind it to snap it.


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## WLMantisKid (Jun 17, 2004)

I meant the nicknames of the weapons was more of a "social role"-ish thing.

We do shakes with our long weapons as well, I know what you're talking about there. I dont think those have anything to do with calling the Staff the Grandfather and the Gim the Mother though


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## white mantis (Jun 17, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Well...to an extent. Some weapons represent such a step up in technology that the difference overwhelms skill (a samurai philosophical objection to the gun).
> 
> And yes, skill matters, but who would want to face a spear if they were armed with only a knife? Who would want to face a sword if they had only a yawara? Length matters too. That is, I agree with you, but within reason--even at a fixed technology level, some weapons can make up for a _lot_ of skill.


You would be amazed at some of the things pepole do when they have no choice even if thir is a gun involved.


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## Bod (Jun 24, 2004)

No other traditional weapon, with the exception of projectile weapons, is so effective against cavalry.


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## white mantis (Jun 24, 2004)

Bod said:
			
		

> No other traditional weapon, with the exception of projectile weapons, is so effective against cavalry.


Hmmm.....perhaps you need to check out the armoury section of this forum and see the thread fix bayonets.


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