# Where does double Double Stick training fit in



## Mark Lynn (Jul 9, 2005)

I was working with my main workout partner today and we got discussing double stick training.  He was wondering what priority double stick training takes in Arnis.  As we discussed it I got thinking that I would post his question and see if anyone cares to discuss it here.

1) Where does double stick training fit into your training, or teaching if at all?

2) How much do you do?  Or what emphasis do you place on it?

For my self I like to start out a student with DS training for at least a month or so because I believe it helps the student in several different ways.
1) Good coordination or skill type drills.
2) The basic Sinawali type patterns help teach basic fighting combinations that can be applied in several different weapon areas.
3) I also use it as a platform to teach basic disarm concepts and skills.  If a student can wrap an arm with a two foot stick in their hand, then doing it with a knife or empty hand is a breeze   
4) Good confidence builer and it's fun.

What I normally teach to the beginner student is the following
1) Sinawali drills: Single Sinawali Standard and Advanced, Chambered Single Sinawali (Standard and Advanced), X Pattern, Double Sinawali (All high or Heaven, Standard, Earth or all low).
2) GM Ernesto Presas's 14 count feeding pattern, and the four combative responses hitting with the stick and with the butt (Punyo).
3) Using different counts (angles of attack) of the 14 count feeding drill as a basis for teaching 3 disarms.

GM Remy in the camps that I attended 1995 and on didn't do much DS, compared to GM Ernesto who teaches a lot more.  I asked GM Remy once about why he didn't teach that much Double Stick or Stick and Knife and he told me it wasn't applicable to today's society (nobody fights with two sticks in America). 

Any thoughts or input?

Mark


----------



## Tgace (Jul 9, 2005)

Hell, you dont see many people fight with any "sticks" in America. Maybe the odd pool cue, tire iron or broom handle, but even then rarely. IMO, the value of stick training is that the motions translate to anything (or nothing) that you hold in your hand as a weapon. Unless you walk the street with a rattan or a cane, the odds of finding a "stick" when walking the mall are slim.

I like the double stick stuff because it helps fight that "one armed fighter" syndrome you see when people only focus on one hand....


----------



## MJS (Jul 9, 2005)

One of the beauties of Arnis, is that everything that can be done with a stick, can be translated into empty hand.  The same applies with the double stick patterns.  While double siniwali may not look exactly the same without the 2 sticks in hand, the concepts are still there and can be applied.

Mike


----------



## silatman (Jul 10, 2005)

Double stick can be utilized if the stick is retained after a disarm. 
It looks pretty flash too , to the uninitiated.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 10, 2005)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I was working with my main workout partner today and we got discussing double stick training.  He was wondering what priority double stick training takes in Arnis.  As we discussed it I got thinking that I would post his question and see if anyone cares to discuss it here.
> 
> 1) Where does double stick training fit into your training, or teaching if at all?



I teach it and it fits into the work out, coordination, and overall combat effective portions of the art.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 2) How much do you do?  Or what emphasis do you place on it?



Our Club teachs the Sinawalis, as well as the disarms, and the flow, and . . ., . You get the point, the double stick gets put into with the rest of the system. I will agree that single stick, gets a slight higher priority, but the double stick is still a requirement, and must be given time, as it should. We also teach the special strikes with two canes as well.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> For my self I like to start out a student with DS training for at least a month or so because I believe it helps the student in several different ways.
> 
> 1) Good coordination or skill type drills.



I agree. the off hand learns from the lead hand.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 2) The basic Sinawali type patterns help teach basic fighting combinations that can be applied in several different weapon areas.



And also really improves the empthy hand as well.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 3) I also use it as a platform to teach basic disarm concepts and skills.  If a student can wrap an arm with a two foot stick in their hand, then doing it with a knife or empty hand is a breeze



I see your point, but I consider this part of the coordination, yet no problem with the separation.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 4) Good confidence builder and it's fun.



I know it is fun, and am curious as to the confidence builder. Because if two stick is largo range, and the student can get comfortable and then the closer ranges will be eaiser or that they actually can defend themselves when someone comes at them with two weapons? or ?



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> What I normally teach to the beginner student is the following
> 1) Sinawali drills: Single Sinawali Standard and Advanced, Chambered Single Sinawali (Standard and Advanced), X Pattern, Double Sinawali (All high or Heaven, Standard, Earth or all low).



The all high is Redonda, and can be done horizontal or 45 degree format. the all low is called Reverse, and is there beacuse Dean Stockwell was having problems learning Double. 



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 2) GM Ernesto Presas's 14 count feeding pattern, and the four combative responses hitting with the stick and with the butt (Punyo).



I thought GM Ernesto called his art Kombatan? I believe he called it Modern Arnis for a while but changed it to Kombatan when the differences were brought up.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> 3) Using different counts (angles of attack) of the 14 count feeding drill as a basis for teaching 3 disarms.



Modern Arnis per GM Remy had twelve angles of attacks. We use these angles to do the same.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> GM Remy in the camps that I attended 1995 and on didn't do much DS, compared to GM Ernesto who teaches a lot more.  I asked GM Remy once about why he didn't teach that much Double Stick or Stick and Knife and he told me it wasn't applicable to today's society (nobody fights with two sticks in America).



He did a lot more double stick in the 70's and early 80's. By the late 80's you could see a drift to less, and then by the mid 90's it was not as prevalent. 



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Any thoughts or input?
> 
> Mark



I like double stick and stick and kinfe a lot.


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jul 10, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I see your point, but I consider this part of the coordination, yet no problem with the separation.



While I do consider it part of the coordination, the skills learned in DS (to me) translate to weapons of equal length (i.e. double knife, empty hand, double palm stick, kamas, sai) and to a lesser degree weapons of unequal length (i.e stick and knife, single stick, single knife etc.). 



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I know it is fun, and am curious as to the confidence builder. Because if two stick is largo range, and the student can get comfortable and then the closer ranges will be eaiser or that they actually can defend themselves when someone comes at them with two weapons? or ?



To me if a student knows little or nothing about weapons and they can in a realitively short amount of time learn some different (yet semi challenging) flow drills.  It can be a confindence builder.  Also when practicing some of the drills with movement (say single sinawali) and having the person step or come in on one of the strikes (hard), it tends to rise the level of training intensity up (stress) and if the student can see they can handle it and they get to participate giving it in return again I think of it as a confidence builder.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> The all high is Redonda, and can be done horizontal or 45 degree format. the all low is called Reverse, and is there beacuse Dean Stockwell was having problems learning Double.



While I do teach Redonda, the all high Sinawali that I teach is a little different in that the strikes are not cicular as in Redonda but rather more like a high forehand (RH), high back hand (chambered LH), high backhand (RH) along the lines of angles 1 and 2.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I thought GM Ernesto called his art Kombatan? I believe he called it Modern Arnis for a while but changed it to Kombatan when the differences were brought up.



You are right GM Ernesto use to call his art Modern Arnis as well, in fact he has said that MA is contained within Kombatan.  However Kombatan has different drills and techniques than MA although there are similarities between the two systems.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Modern Arnis per GM Remy had twelve angles of attacks. We use these angles to do the same.



In GM Ernesto's system he teaches a lot more DS patterns, disarms, along with his combative blocking type drills off of the 14 and 24 angles of attack feeding patterns.  The feeding patterns are simialr in concept to the 12 angles of attack only they relate to the DS instead of the single stick.  In Kombatan there is the same 12 angles of attack for single stick as in MA.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> He did a lot more double stick in the 70's and early 80's. By the late 80's you could see a drift to less, and then by the mid 90's it was not as prevalent.



This was my understanding as well

Since I have worked with (and recieved Lakan rank from) both of the brothers GM Remy and GM Ernesto, I teach a combination of both of their systems.  My DS is much more like GM Ernesto's than GM Remy's, Single stick is a much more even mix of the two, Kinfe and stick and knife is more GM Ernesto's material, but empty hand is more GM Remy's.

While I could teach and brake apart either system I choose to honor both and support both by teaching a combination to the very few students that I have.  In hopes that they will in time support either Kombatan or Modern Arnis by attending different events and such.

Mark


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jul 10, 2005)

OK how do you get the different colored boxes for the quotes?  That is what I thought i was doing with Rich's post.

Mark


----------



## Blindside (Jul 10, 2005)

> OK how do you get the different colored boxes for the quotes? That is what I thought i was doing with Rich's post.



There is a shortcut (callout symbol) when you do a response, or the format is (QUOTE) xxtextxxx (/QUOTE) except use brackets instead of parenthesis.

Lamont


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jul 10, 2005)

Thanks Lamont


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 10, 2005)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> OK how do you get the different colored boxes for the quotes?  That is what I thought i was doing with Rich's post.
> 
> Mark



Mark I took care of the edit for you. I hope this makes the thread flow better.

 :asian:


----------



## Mark Lynn (Jul 11, 2005)

Thanks Rich


----------



## Dan Anderson (Jul 11, 2005)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I was working with my main workout partner today and we got discussing double stick training.  He was wondering what priority double stick training takes in Arnis.  As we discussed it I got thinking that I would post his question and see if anyone cares to discuss it here.
> 
> 1) Where does double stick training fit into your training, or teaching if at all?
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

1.  Around mid-way to Black Belt.
2.  I do the usual three sinawali patterns as well as the redonda X pattern.  The chief usage for double stick training in my school is in free flow give and take.  Here is where your attention must really be on the ball.  It turns into a great drill for left/right split focus.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 11, 2005)

I start right from the begining and I feel that it really helps
with the students coordination! It also helps in training the
student to never forget about either hand!

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## angelariz (May 11, 2021)

Doble baston is like boxing with different length ranges. It helps with boxing, shoulder and forearm stamina, and it helps correct imbalances in ambidextrous skills and general structure.


----------



## Argus (Jun 20, 2021)

As someone with a Wing Chun background, *so* many lightbulbs started going off once I started learning double stick. There's huge parallels with unarmed fighting, as well as unarmed defense against weapons. There's also a lot of cool stuff and lightbulb moments when it comes to Wing Chun's butterfly swords, which nearly all Wing Chun practitioners and instructors alike seem to train very, very little of, sadly.

It also seems to train both hands simultaneously, and gets you used to using your off-hand a more. There's a lot of value to be had in double stick, and it's to your own detriment if you don't train it much (as I didn't when I first started). Almost all techniques can be applied with no weapons, a single weapon, or double weapons as well, which is not really something you can say of single stick or sword alone.


----------



## geezer (Jul 5, 2021)

Argus said:


> As someone with a Wing Chun background, *so* many lightbulbs started going off once I started learning double stick. There's huge parallels with unarmed fighting, as well as unarmed defense against weapons.


So true! Although I do a derivative of Latosa Escrima rather than Modern Arnis, I had a similar experience.


Argus said:


> There's also a lot of cool stuff and lightbulb moments when it comes to Wing Chun's butterfly swords, which nearly all Wing Chun practitioners and instructors alike seem to train very, very little of, sadly.


It seems that in most WC schools, the Bart Cham Dao has been reduced to an esoteric "prestige form" of little practical value ...except for supplementary training and for _the footwork_ (which should have already been taught early on).

I believe that training and sparring FMA with short double sticks can de-code and revive the "dead language" of the BCD ...and perhaps even improving it's functionality.


----------



## Argus (Jul 15, 2021)

geezer said:


> So true! Although I do a derivative of Latosa Escrima rather than Modern Arnis, I had a similar experience.
> 
> It seems that in most WC schools, the Bart Cham Dao has been reduced to an esoteric "prestige form" of little practical value ...except for supplementary training and for _the footwork_ (which should have already been taught early on).
> 
> I believe that training and sparring FMA with short double sticks can de-code and revive the "dead language" of the BCD ...and perhaps even improving it's functionality.



It really saddens me that most WC practitioners don't see the practical value in learning to use weapons...

I totally agree though: FMA (and also HEMA) shed a lot of light on the "dead language" of the BCD. And so does, you know, actually training with them!

@Danny T 's lineage (Francis Fong) does precisely this, and I was really impressed with what I saw, by the way.





Another good place to look is Kalis Ilustrisimo. Using a blade, such as the BCD is definitely a bit more intricate than double stick.


----------



## angelariz (Aug 18, 2021)

I use double stick right from the start to teach coordination and BGS grappling entries.


----------

