# Ninjutsu Everywhere!!!



## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 1, 2011)

Im trying to find as many small orginzations in ninjutsu to exammine and gather as much info as possible, Im looking for little dojos and small groups. Not the Kans...

Any suggestions???


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## Chris Parker (Jan 2, 2011)

Hi,

I notice in your Meet and Greet post that you state you direct/operate a Ninjutsu training dojo. Can I ask what you are refering to there, if it is not one of the 'kans?

With regard to the above post, not really sure what you're after there. Are you after the less-legit (Neo-Ninja) groups? Honestly, if you are, the info is not going to actually be much to do with actual Ninjutsu, the Kan's and the various split offs from them are going to be your best source.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 2, 2011)

I don't really know what to answer. Are you referring to legitimate kan offshoots (like the organization which Chris Parker belongs to) or the made up systems like dux-ryu, *******, kung maki ung, and people like Ashida Kim, Choson Ninja, Charles Burgess, ...

Because over here we hold the position that if there is NO verifiable and credible link to an authentic Japanese ninjutsu ryuha, it is NOT ninjutsu. So any discussion which would hinge on this fact is moot if that cannot be established.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

I was under the impression this was for General Ninjutsu discussions, Ive got a small project Im working on independently to find all there is out there.. Im very aware of all the Tew ryu, Dux ryu, Ashida Kim and Chosen... Which to be honest I like the Chosen guy.... Im not to worried about the Big-Kans due to all the back and fourth debate as to who's who and what's what.. I study the teachings of all that are teaching... I think the whole picture is great and a mystery in it self,

Simply put if there is a guy you know of, teaching a Ninjutsu style or running a Dojo, Im simply looking for a little info on them.. 

Please try not to read into this to much its really simple...


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

Yes certainly Sir,

     I organized a small dojo dedicated to learning and spreading Ninjutsu... I was a Bujinkan member and Im a To-shin-Do Student. My students are fully aware of my history, I claim nothing other than what I am.. A Student of Nin.

Our Ryu is doing just what ninja or bushi alike would do... Gather Info... 

Thanks for your Response.. I look forward to any Info you may have..


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Because over here we hold the position that if there is NO verifiable and credible link to an authentic Japanese ninjutsu ryuha, it is NOT ninjutsu. So any discussion which would hinge on this fact is moot if that cannot be established.



Where can I go or where would you suggest that people can establish this type of discussion??


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## jks9199 (Jan 2, 2011)

I'd suggest you spend a few minutes reading the stickied threads at the top of this forum.  Some of your questions may be answered there.  I've looked at your website; it seems that your own training includes the Bujinkan and Toshindo, but that you've chosen to go your own route since them.

MartialTalk isn't some sort of super arbiter of what is or isn't ninjutsu or any other art -- but we've also learned (very often, the hard way) that if we don't hold to some sort of standard for the definition, nothing good comes of it.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

Once again to specify, Im simply looking for anything I may have not seen or found myself.. Im simply looking for the names and info of small groups that are training in Ninjutsu..  Ive read the stickies and ive read the posting for newbies and all that... Im interested in finding back woods groups like mine.. its nothing else...

If you must know Im working towards producing a documentary on the American Ninja Movements.. So people like Rick Tew, Frank Dux Ect are people Ive researched... Its to simply dig deeper into Mask that Ninjutsu has created for itself..  

I figure joining this forum would be fun but so far its kinda Sketchy.. 


Good day.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 2, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I figure joining this forum would be fun but so far its kinda Sketchy..


 
What makes you say that it's sketchy?


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> What makes you say that it's sketchy?



Well.. The fact that no one has mentioned any Dojos.. and also
I was expressing my feelings on the site.. nothing more...

Wow.. This is not turning out at all...


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 2, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Well.. The fact that no one has mentioned any Dojos..



I guess I shouldn't say that.. I didn't know about Charles Burgges, Lol...


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## bluewaveschool (Jan 2, 2011)

Ninjas are secretive about their training.  Post enough and one will slip up though.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Wow.. This is not turning out at all...



I'm sorry if my question came off as aggressive or attacking, it was merely founded in curiosity. At least based on the fact that you replied in another thread, you've come across our school 

Might I ask though what you're going to do with this listing of other "back woods groups"? I know you mention doing a documentary on American Ninjutsu, what sort of doco is it? Are you fraud busting or praising or just acknowledging and exploring their existence and/or origins? Again I'm asking this for my own personal interest only and not to deride you in any way so please don't take offense.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Might I ask though what you're going to do with this listing of other "back woods groups"? I know you mention doing a documentary on American Ninjutsu, what sort of doco is it? Are you fraud busting or praising or just acknowledging and exploring their existence and/or origins? Again I'm asking this for my own personal interest only and not to deride you in any way so please don't take offense.



Sure Thing Supra!!

Im starting an investigative online documentary on the American Ninjutsu Movements.. Yes, Im mostly exploring, Doing a little bit of praising.. well for the ones not sharing complete craziness.. 
As far as Back woods.. Im simply looking for anything to help get some more content.. Im still in the investigative portions of doc. 
To be honest with you.. it wasn't panning out do to the lack of interest in Ninjutsu in my area so I decided to hit the Internet!!!! 

So far this is the first forum Ive joined.. However I feel its a little pushy here at times... Ive had a lot of site hits though so that's good lol!!


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I guess I shouldn't say that.. I didn't know about Charles Burgges, Lol...



He made an appearance on budoseek, trying to convince Don Roley that he had learned the 9 schools of the Bujinkan, as well as a formerly unknown ninjutsu ryuha. His supposed sensei would have been the training partner of Takamatsu sensei, and the extra ryuha came from within the family. He was allowed to learn in a way that was suspiciously similar to the movie 'Bloodsport'.

After being thoroughly debunked (his story was full of holes) the forum admin was going to be the referee, and Charles would provide proof (pics, contact information for the relatives of his sensei) to him. And then Charles went incommunicando for good.

We are on this forum to discuss ninjutsu, and that includes the kans, their legitimate offshoots, historical information, etc... But we are not going to be '1 big happy family with mutual respect for all' when it comes to the people making up their own ninjutsu system. That would be like slapping a Bordeaux label on an inferior bottle of Beaujolais and saying that it is Bordeaux because you feel it is the same. It is not. Even if we would ignore the quality side of the discussion, it simply would not fulfill the requirements for carrying that label.

Now as for legitimate non-kan organizations: there are not that many represented here. Not because we would have something against them (we don't) but simply because they represent only a relatively small fraction of the total number of people who practice anything that can legitimately be called ninjutsu. Most of those are fairly small organizations as well and seem to stay away from discussion forums.

For example, I know of hikokuryan which is headed by a guy who was in the Bujinkan for quite a while. So that would qualify him as legit. Otoh I would also like to know why he feels he is qualified to be 'grandmaster' at his very young age, and why there is not a single mention of his lineage on his website.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> We are on this forum to discuss ninjutsu, and that includes the kans, their legitimate offshoots, historical information, etc... But we are not going to be '1 big happy family with mutual respect for all' when it comes to the people making up their own ninjutsu system. That would be like slapping a Bordeaux label on an inferior bottle of Beaujolais and saying that it is Bordeaux because you feel it is the same. It is not. Even if we would ignore the quality side of the discussion, it simply would not fulfill the requirements for carrying that label.
> 
> Now as for legitimate non-kan organizations: there are not that many represented here. Not because we would have something against them (we don't) but simply because they represent only a relatively small fraction of the total number of people who practice anything that can legitimately be called ninjutsu. Most of those are fairly small organizations as well and seem to stay away from discussion forums.



Sure I can understand where you come from.. I stick to Bujinkan and Toshindo personally..I guess my broad view differs.. I pay no mind to the people setting up there own Dojos and so on.. I simply choose not to join them.. however if they claim they are ninjutsu Id like to see it, Perhaps play into there ideas but thats about it... I like that people have there own flavors if you will... 

And as for all that Bordaux stuff I have no idea what you are talking about... I assume its an alcoholic drink or something, I don't drink.. Its terrible on your body..


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 3, 2011)

Bordeaux is a wine. Personally I don't drink wine but most people know it and understand that gluing a fake label to a bottle does not change the contents, and people who are interested in the real deal have nothing good to say about people who fake it.

I've said it before: people who start their own fake ninjutsu systems like Frank Dux may very well be able to fight, and their students may kick my *** every given day of the week and twice on sunday. I do not contest that. But what they do is not ninjutsu.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I've said it before: people who start their own fake ninjutsu systems like Frank Dux may very well be able to fight, and their students may kick my *** every given day of the week and twice on sunday. I do not contest that. But what they do is not ninjutsu.



Sure man!! 
 Im glad Ive got your full opinion on the matter...


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Sure man!!
> Im glad Ive got your full opinion on the matter...



I may be completely out of line here and I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself but to be honest Jon I think you will find that's most people's opinion on this board. People here take their respective art/s very very seriously and especially with Ninjutsu stick to strict standards. I think of the forum as a purist's paradise and that helps me decide what I'm going to post/ask. 

Apologies to anyone else who may have read that as me speaking for you or putting words in your mouth. My personal view only.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> I may be completely out of line here and I'm not trying to speak for anyone but myself but to be honest Jon I think you will find that's most people's opinion on this board. People here take their respective art/s very very seriously and especially with Ninjutsu stick to strict standards. I think of the forum as a purist's paradise and that helps me decide what I'm going to post/ask.
> 
> Apologies to anyone else who may have read that as me speaking for you or putting words in your mouth. My personal view only.



I respect your thoughts, Thank you!


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## jks9199 (Jan 3, 2011)

Another comparison might be putting a Porche nameplate on a Yugo... 

As I said -- the policy here isn't to set MT up as some sort of ultimate authority on what constitutes valid ninjutsu/ninpo training.  We don't validate or verify arts or people under most circumstances, whatever the art in question may be.  But we also have found that if we don't have some sort of guidelines, we end up with the SWAT-wannabe or 3 months kung fu/3 months TKD/"read every Ashida Kim and ninja manga" type stuff that just ends up with locked threads and chaos...


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Another comparison might be putting a Porche nameplate on a Yugo...
> 
> As I said -- the policy here isn't to set MT up as some sort of ultimate authority on what constitutes valid ninjutsu/ninpo training.  We don't validate or verify arts or people under most circumstances, whatever the art in question may be.  But we also have found that if we don't have some sort of guidelines, we end up with the SWAT-wannabe or 3 months kung fu/3 months TKD/"read every Ashida Kim and ninja manga" type stuff that just ends up with locked threads and chaos...



My question was simply to find some info on schools, Im not looking for an authority in ninjutsu...


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## oaktree (Jan 3, 2011)

Hi Kumori

Best bet to find what you are looking for is youtube.
 Choson ninja,Red Spider ninja,Mountainous and more.
You can send them a PM

You can search Bullshido as well and ask your questions there.

Most forums such as this one Martial Planet,E-Budo, and so on will have members asking you questions and especially with you creating a new Ryuha and the first thing I see on a goggle search of Kumori and ninja is Naruto anime.


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## Muawijhe (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> My question was simply to find some info on schools, Im not looking for an authority in ninjutsu...


 
Well, therein lies a fine line. Unless the school is of the kans, or a legitimate off-shoot (such as your To-Shin Do), then it simply is not ninjutsu. They may use the word ninjutsu, dress the part, throw in some terminology and techniques from Budo Taijutsu, but at the end of the day it is not ninjutsu. From my understanding, though ninjutsu is a very broad term, covering lots of different areas of study, it is not a generic term, and is very specific in its lineage.

If, however, you're interested in the more ugh...fraudulant (can I say that under the TOS?) schools, I'm sure you can find a lot about Ashida Kim and his BDFS (or is it BDNS now?) scattered about the US.

But, let me go back. Do you want a listing of all schools, legit or otherwise, in the US that teach (or claim to teach) ninjutsu? If so, I could try to list the ones I know of in my area of the US, but that's about as much as I can do for you.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 3, 2011)

oaktree said:


> You can search Bullshido as well and ask your questions there.



Ok now you're just being mean 
Why not send him to budoseek as well? Don Roley will have a field day.


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## oaktree (Jan 3, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Ok now you're just being mean
> Why not send him to budoseek as well? Don Roley will have a field day.


 
I thought Mr.Roley was on MAP. 

Bullshido has some great finds on independent people they have I think a 175 page thread on the mountain ninja on Youtube.

I think if he lurks and searches on there he can find more what he is looking for.


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 3, 2011)

Dang, guys.  No one made any kind of attempt at making the 1st poster remotely welcome.
Go back and read this thread with fresh eyes.
If I were that guy, I would never visit MT again.

AoG


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## grav3h3art (Jan 3, 2011)

I train with the bushi kaze dojo here in mexico.


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## Muawijhe (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im trying to find as many small orginzations in ninjutsu to exammine and gather as much info as possible, Im looking for little dojos and small groups. Not the Kans...
> 
> Any suggestions???


 
Hello, Kumori Ryu Ninja, and welcome to Martial Talk!

Please free welcome to share with us information on your training history.

What information is it you're looking to gather and examine from small organizations? Locations? Training fees/methodologies? Reasons why they decided to split from the major organizations and go their own path?

The more information we have as to what you are looking for the better we can help you.

And again, welcome to Martial Talk!

-Muawijhe


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Muawijhe said:


> Hello, Kumori Ryu Ninja, and welcome to Martial Talk!
> What information is it you're looking to gather and examine from small organizations? Locations? Training fees/methodologies? Reasons why they decided to split from the major organizations and go their own path?



Mostly to verify the entire aspect of ninjutsu... I love Bujinkan don't get me wrong, But as I Examined To-Shin-Do it seemed more welcoming and the curriculum was great! Ive had run ins with Kan folks like everyone does.. 

To be honest.. Im not here to let every one tear apart my school or my teachers... I was here to learn and express a love of an art.. 

Im not interested in sharing with you now.. Why would I now that all have mocked and carelessly make underlining comments and so fourth.. 

Thank you...


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 3, 2011)

oaktree said:


> I thought Mr.Roley was on MAP.



I don't know if he is on MAP, but I do know he's a moderator on budoseek.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

grav3h3art said:


> I train with the bushi kaze dojo here in mexico.



Great photos.. Looks like a good group...Id love to see more!!


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 3, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im trying to find as many small orginzations in ninjutsu to exammine and gather as much info as possible, Im looking for little dojos and small groups. Not the Kans...
> 
> Any suggestions???



HAHAHA... Why did i ask this WHY!!!!


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## Muawijhe (Jan 4, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Mostly to verify the entire aspect of ninjutsu... I love Bujinkan don't get me wrong, But as I Examined To-Shin-Do it seemed more welcoming and the curriculum was great! Ive had run ins with Kan folks like everyone does..


 
That's great. It is good to find what works for you, so long as it is legitimate. But remember that people are people, wether they are in the Bujinkan, the other kans, a student of To-Shin Do, or any other martial art. Don't judge an organization by a few bad eggs if you can help it.



> To be honest.. Im not here to let every one tear apart my school or my teachers... I was here to learn and express a love of an art..


 
I wouldn't think one would come here to have their school or teachers torn apart. And though you recieved a less warm welcome than you had wanted, perhaps your entrance techniques were a bit off too. A first post of an introduction, just stating a little about yourself and "I am here to learn and express a love for an art" would have been a better start. But hey, I didn't do that either. Was rocky for a while. =)



> Im not interested in sharing with you now.. Why would I now that all have mocked and carelessly make underlining comments and so fourth..


 
No skin off my back. I can't say that I have mocked you, nor have some others, but if you wish lump us all into a group for the percieved actions of a few, then that is your loss, not mine. As to the second part of the above quote the answer is simple: perseverance



> Thank you...


 
You're welcome.


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## Mac1964 (Jan 4, 2011)

Welcome to Martial talk KRN!
  If it seems or feels like it's kinda intense here...it is.That being said if you feel this a rough intro to forums then fasten your seat belt! lol Most other forum's are like feeding time at the understaffed under-budget zoo. It's true that people here often answer question's with question's but there are reasons for that. I am new to the whole forum thing also but now after a month plus of mostly reading and listening it's not hard to see why.Mostly, it has to do with the large amount of poster's coming on the Ninjutsu threads and doing nothing but playing games,roleplaying,fantasizing about the Ninjer way of lifeand in general making an *** of themselves.I'm not saying you are like that or that you have done anything wrong.You haven't as far as I can see.It's just that certain question's raise flags in people's mind here like they do anywhere else.Most of the people here and on other forum's who have spent years! 15-20-25yrs.In other words a life-time.Often seem reluctant to start giving out info on people or Orgs. that they know or know of if they don't really know why the person wants to know?Make sense?
Anyway welcome aboard and don't let the ocassional snip get ya down.There are alot of people on this and other boards who have a wealth of knowledge about this subject/martial art.
Peace!
Steve M


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## Bester (Jan 4, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> HAHAHA... Why did i ask this WHY!!!!


Outside of the kan's, few are legit. 

Kim, Lung, Tew, Bussey, Dux, Chosen, and more are all pretty much confirmed frauds. There's more to ninjutsu than wearing black pajama's, running around in the dark, and calling yourself a ninja.

To be legit, you must have verifiable training in verifiable legitimate Japanese ninjustu.  Hard to do. Few can do it.

One clown here thought it was MMA. Another claimed the same art as the Ninja Turtles. Another runs training camps based on stuff he learned watching Power Rangers. And so on.

Legit schools, aren't as common as TKD or karate. ******** ones though, are everywhere.


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## grav3h3art (Jan 5, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Great photos.. Looks like a good group...Id love to see more!!



Thanks bro! I just modified my details here. Prob you should take a look at the links.


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## ronin7411 (Jan 6, 2011)

I can't vouch for the Iga ryu so you'll have to talk to someone that deals with them because the only school I know that claim's Iga ryu lineage is just the Bujinkan. I cant think of any other schools that claim lineage to the Iga Ryu but I can give you a site that provides a general list of what schools claim lineage to the Koga Ryu and a brief history about that school. (I didn't know that the Genbukan had Koga Ryu lineage in it too you learn something new everyday) You can copy and paste their names to find out more about them for your project good luck and hope everything turns out good.

http://www.traditional-dojo.com/History_Koga-ryu.html


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 6, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> (I didn't know that the Genbukan had Koga Ryu lineage in it too



Genbukan doesn't.
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?ryu_soke
None of the systems in which Tanemura sensei is grandmaster or has ever trained is related to Koga ryu.



ronin7411 said:


> (you learn something new everyday



So you find something unsubstantiated on a website not affiliated with Genbukan, making claims that are at odds with the actual Genbukan content, you did not bother to verify those claims, and you call that 'learning'?


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## ronin7411 (Jan 6, 2011)

Um, Bruno this is a Genbukan school saying this and here is the link: 

http://www.ninpobugei.com/soke_tanemura_1.html 

Nowadays he is still a much respected Grandmaster all  over the world who teaches both Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu Ninpo, who has more  then 50 years experience in martial arts (over 23 Ryu-Ha) and who is  still studying and learning new styles.

This was also discussed on Martial Arts Planet too and Tanemura also admitted to it a couple times that he has training in the Koga Ryu it was also verified on Martial Talk too

http://martialartsplanet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58217

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56974&page=2


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 6, 2011)

I grant you that it is intrigueing enough that I'll try to find out more. The History pages of Genbukan websites are often taken straight from the intro of Ninpo Secrets or the kyu curriculum, so it is small wonder

Something similar is printed in the intro of our kyu curriculum, which is a translation not made by Tanemura sensei himself, and which I was told was intended to say that the Genbukan ninpo curriculum is made out of the arts associated with the Iga and Koga regions, which is indeed true when looking at the lineage of the various arts which are listed.

You'll note that Koga ryu is mentioned nowhere on the Genbukan main page, not even in the list of 'systems trained in'. And you'll also note that there is no Genbukan member actually making that claim.


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## ronin7411 (Jan 6, 2011)

Bruno, the link to the Genbukan school where it talks about Soke Tanemura says this at the bottom of the page: 

This site is officially approved by Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto (Honbu Dojo - Japan) 2006 - Copyright Genbukan Daigo Dojo
​
​I think its safe to assume that if Tanemura himself approved of the information about a student of his saying that he teaches Koga Ryu and studied it on a school's website teaching his style. I think he is telling everyone along with that school having his approval saying that he is affiliated to the Koga Ryu in some form that he does have some sort of training in a Koga Ryu system.


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## Hayseed (Jan 6, 2011)

I'm dusting out the cobwebs in my head and IIRC, I thought I read something about Mr. Tanemura tracing his genealogy back and finding that he had familial ties to the Koga.  I don't remember reading anything where he claimed to have trained in "Koga Ryu" though.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 6, 2011)

Tanemura sensei indeed approved what is there.
He is not, however, fluent in English, not is he a linguist. You will find the same approval under our website, which is in Dutch. And I am fairly certain he does not speak Dutch.

Anyway, I've asked my sensei what he thinks and what it says in the Japanese version of Ninpo secrets.


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 6, 2011)

Muawijhe said:


> No skin off my back. I can't say that I have mocked you, nor have some others, but if you wish lump us all into a group for the percieved actions of a few, then that is your loss, not mine. As to the second part of the above quote the answer is simple: perseverance




Muawijhe, I appreciate your responses.. I will be around here and there.. I know you have done nothing to mock or reject me.. Its just that its too soon to get back into the back and fourth again... apparently Ive been warned by a moderator for my behavior on here?? Im still trying to figure that one out... LOL.. I love all the content here and the people seem very knowledgeable.. I will be keeping an eye on the site and the threads to see what comes along... 

My best regards!!

Kumori


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## Muawijhe (Jan 6, 2011)

Good luck with your training, Kumori Ryu Ninja.

Ninjutsu is a controversial field, and if you are new to forums, they have a life of their own to get used to. You'll get the hang of it in time, just take it slowly at first. Listen then speak.

I'd almost suggest it being like joining a new dojo of a new art. You wouldn't want to walk through the doors and ignore the instructor in favour of your previous art. Take it slow, listen, even if the ideas and concepts are not what you agree with based on previous experiences. Ponder, practice, and then respond. Advice I need to heed for myself more often than not.


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## ronin7411 (Jan 6, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Ive been warned by a moderator for my behavior on here?? Im still trying to figure that one out...



Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here


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## Tanaka (Jan 6, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here


As they say... The Truth hurts.
Now you may continue to be spiteful, or learn from it.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 6, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here



Perhaps. But only because he (seems to) support your viewpoint, possibly out of ignorance (and I don't mean this in a negative way). If Ashida Kim himself showed up here, you'd find him more helpful than some of the Mentors and supporting members here, despite the fact that he is a quack. You'd praise him because he validates you, not because he presents solid arguments.


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## MJS (Jan 6, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Muawijhe, I appreciate your responses.. I will be around here and there.. I know you have done nothing to mock or reject me.. Its just that its too soon to get back into the back and fourth again... apparently Ive been warned by a moderator for my behavior on here?? Im still trying to figure that one out... LOL.. I love all the content here and the people seem very knowledgeable.. I will be keeping an eye on the site and the threads to see what comes along...
> 
> My best regards!!
> 
> Kumori


 


ronin7411 said:


> Same here Kumori I personally think that you're more helpful than some of the Mentors and Supporting Members here


 
So, whats the issue gentlemen?  If you're both here to air out your dirty laundry or unhappiness with the forum, this thread isn't the place to do it.  Feel free to contact myself or another mod with any concerns you have.  As for the warnings....well, perhaps if the forum rules that *everyone agreed to when they signed up* were adhered to, there wouldnt be any issues.

That being said, lets get back to the topic at hand please.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 7, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> Bruno, the link to the Genbukan school where it talks about Soke Tanemura says this at the bottom of the page:
> 
> This site is officially approved by Grandmaster Tanemura Tsunehisa Shoto (Honbu Dojo - Japan) 2006 - Copyright Genbukan Daigo Dojo
> ​
> ​I think its safe to assume that if Tanemura himself approved of the information about a student of his saying that he teaches Koga Ryu and studied it on a school's website teaching his style.



Oh yeah ok hold on:

"Ronin7411 is full of BS"

This post is officially approved by Ronin7411 

There we go, it MUST be true.  Because I said you said you approved it.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 7, 2011)

Ok, I apologize for my previous post.  It was a dick move, but it makes my point.  Anyone can say anything and claim its approved, it does not prove the person they claim approved it actually read it and did so.


----------



## Muawijhe (Jan 7, 2011)

Not to drag this on, but this question has been in my mind for a while and I've finally given in to it.

So, Fujita Seiko did not pass on his Koga Ryu Ninjutsu. But let's assume that Tanemura sensei does have knowledge of Koga Ryu, and maybe even teaches it (though seemingly not openly by the accounts of Genbukan members).

How many of these Koga Ryu schools out there have trained at length with Tanemura sensei? How many have such a knowledge of the arts taught and relationship with Tanemura sensei to be able to distinguish between Koga and Iga?

I'm open to the idea that a Koga Ryu could exist, but I see more Western dojos of shadey repute that claim to teach Koga Ryu, but have no link to what-so-ever to any of the less-questionable links to it. I highly doubt the young 20-somethings that dress as Mortal Kombat characters and train in the washroom basement have spent time with Tanemura, Kawakami, or a pupil of Fujita Seiko (assuming one was someone how trained secretly in Koga Ryu).

Not a dig at the supposed Koga Ryu practioners out there, but just it is an awful leap to take even in theory. Add to that I have yet to see so-called Koga Ryu organizations display any similarity in styles or movement between them.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 7, 2011)

Muawijhe said:


> I'm open to the idea that a Koga Ryu could exist, but I see more Western dojos of shadey repute that claim to teach Koga Ryu, but have no link to what-so-ever to any of the less-questionable links to it. I highly doubt the young 20-somethings that dress as Mortal Kombat characters and train in the washroom basement have spent time with Tanemura, Kawakami, or a pupil of Fujita Seiko (assuming one was someone how trained secretly in Koga Ryu).
> 
> Not a dig at the supposed Koga Ryu practioners out there, but just it is an awful leap to take even in theory. Add to that I have yet to see so-called Koga Ryu organizations display any similarity in styles or movement between them.



I might have been open to the idea at one time, but I've seen enough people who were Japanese or living in japan and have the correct background investigate the history and claims and have found no real evidence that any of the known Koga styles are still being taught.   At best, to my knowledge what has come to light are documents suggesting that certain ancestors of various persons were trained in these arts, but the current generation of these families were unaware, suggesting it was never actually passed down.  

To be honest I don't really care, but I do admit that its... silly and laughable to see some guy clearly doing Tae-kwon-do and using Nunchucks and calling it "NinjItsu" in the same way I liked to make fun of the idiots in the Honda Civic hatchbacks with the giant spoilers and street racing graphics who think they have Sports Cars before I would toast them off the line in my Camaro.


----------



## Muawijhe (Jan 8, 2011)

I'm open in that I'll at least listen to someone instead of immediately dismissing it. Still, that openess usually goes so far as seeing some pictures of the group or hearing some of the absolutely silly things that are said.


----------



## ronin7411 (Jan 8, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> Ok, I apologize for my previous post. It was a dick move, but it makes my point. Anyone can say anything and claim its approved, it does not prove the person they claim approved it actually read it and did so.


 
I would rather believe Shoto Tanemura and Toshitugu Takamatsu own words anyday but oh well here is my proof 

Gyokko Ryu is a famous school of Kosshi-jutsu (called "Shito-jutsu" in older times) and is also known as Gyokko Ryu Ninpo - which was the source of Haku-un Ryu Ninpo from Iga. Gyokko Ryu is also the oldest school of Kosshi-jutsu and is the source of almost all Ninpo Taijutsu. Takamatsu Sensei taught that Koto Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu all descended from Gyokko Ryu.

http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/site.pl?1315&csProduct_productID=223 

http://www.budovideos.com/shop/cust...m_source=shoppingdotcom&source=shoppingdotcom


----------



## Chris Parker (Jan 8, 2011)

Okay, if we're going to go down this path, I've explored some Koga Ryu myself. Legitimately, though. Fujita Seiko left behind a few documents, including a Kyusho scroll, a Jo scroll, a Shuriken scroll, and a Hojo scroll. He did not, however, leave behind Taijutsu techniques. I have a copy of the Hojo scroll, as well as having gone through the Jo, Shuriken, and Kyusho ones before, and honestly that is as close as you can get to legitimate Koga Ryu today.

With Tanemura's statement of Takamatsu's beliefs on martial history, that statement does not say that Takamatsu taught Koga Ryu, nor that Tanemura teaches it either. It simply says that Gyokko Ryu, which provides the initial technical basis for most Ninjutsu-related systems, also provided the initial basis for the Koga traditions. Both he and Fujita were contemporaries of each other, so it is reasonable to think that they knew of each other, and Takamatsu may have had chance to see Fujita's methods, and drew his own conclusions. Then again, knowing Takamatsu's method of approaching such things, it could very easily just be a marketing device, expanding the influence of Gyokko Ryu itself. Personally, I think that he did believe it himself, though, and that is why he stated it.

Now, Johnny, the biggest question for yourself in your training is this: Are you after historically linked Ninjutsu, or do you just want the cool badge? If the latter, you're fine with your learn-by-book Black Dragon Society method. I still don't think you'll get anywhere near where you would with an instructor, but that's really not my problem, as it's not me doing that. If the former, though, your approach is completely out. But if it's the former, why would you be concerned about Takamatsu's or Tanemura's claims (or Antony Cummins', or Hatsumi's.... or mine.... )?

Really, it's as was said at the beginning of this thread. If Kumori Ryu is after something authentic, something that can legitimately be called Ninjutsu, then all he's got to look at is the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and legitimate off-shoots (note: not people who took a bit of training in a Kan, then went off and came back as "Soke" or "An-Shu", or even "Menkyo Kaiden" in arts that have no substantiation, or even particular skill-sets that don't have those titles applied to them. I'm sure you can think of who I'm refering to here....). If the actual authentic aspect doesn't matter, and it's just anyone with the cool badge, using the name whether there's anything to support it or not, then he can look at a lot of groups, but it really defeats the idea of looking for "ninjutsu" in the first place. After all, if it's not Ninjutsu, it's not Ninjutsu, no matter what it's called.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 8, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> but oh well here is my proof
> 
> Gyokko Ryu is a famous school of Kosshi-jutsu (called "Shito-jutsu" in older times) and is also known as Gyokko Ryu Ninpo - which was the source of Haku-un Ryu Ninpo from Iga. Gyokko Ryu is also the oldest school of Kosshi-jutsu and is the source of almost all Ninpo Taijutsu. Takamatsu Sensei taught that Koto Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gyokushin Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Gikan Ryu Koppo-jutsu, Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu all descended from Gyokko Ryu.



Not really, thats a misquote/misinterpretation you are using to try to prove your argument.

*edit*

Oops sorry Chris, you beat me to that.


----------



## Tanaka (Jan 8, 2011)

He went from not being able to spell "Ninjutsu" correctly. And always referring to it "Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu"

To doing a little googling and thinking hes an expert on Ninjutsu(Or at least lecturing people that have way more knowledge about Ninjutsu than him). This is funny and offensive at the same time.  Does he not realize his using very old arguments?


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 8, 2011)

This thread reminds me of the Offspring.   



> You know it's kind of hard
> Just to get along today
> Our subject isn't cool
> But he thinks it anyway
> ...


----------



## ronin7411 (Jan 8, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> This thread reminds me of the Offspring.



LOL! 

http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html 

http://translate.google.com/transla...=CEP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&prmd=ivns 

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=sk&tl=en&u=http://ninjutsu.bujinkan.sk/ninja.php


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 8, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> LOL!



I like Seether too, but this is a better one for you

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy8HPSIFXEM&feature=channel


----------



## bluewaveschool (Jan 9, 2011)

Everything I know about ninjas, I learned from the GI Joe cartoon and this Barenaked Ladies song -


I woke up this morning and everything was different
Something was strange in the air
I woke up this morning and everything was different
I knew that the Ninjas had been there.

I looked all around my bedroom, underneath the dresser
Behind the bed, but nothing could be found
There was nothing left behind them, nowhere that I could find them
No fingerprints or crumbs on the ground.

The Ninjas are deadly and silent
They're also unspeakably violent
They speak Japanese, they do whatever they please
And sometimes they vacation in Ireland.

The Ninjas are deadly and silent
They're also unspeakably violent
They speak Japanese, they do whatever they please
And if you tear off their masks they'll be smiling.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jan 9, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> LOL!
> 
> http://www.dojopress.com/catalogbk80.html
> 
> ...


 
I really don't know what your point here is, frankly.

The first link is to a book by Ron Collins where he consistently can't even spell the terms correctly, and is widely considered and acknowledged to have nothing to do with any historical systems (Ninjutsu or otherwise) whatsoever, save for the misappropriation of the Omoto Ryu name.

You then link two lists which give extinct arts names as well as the few extant ones. Are you showing us where Ron's group stole the Omoto name from?

Showing that there was a system called the Omoto Ryu does nothing for the credibility of the system currently taught under that name when the current one bears no resemblance to anything even remotely related to the systems that do exist from that period in history in Japan. And no, I'm not even talking about the legit Ninjutsu system here, I'm talking about the extant Koryu systems, and the traits that identify where the art came from. Ron's group is completely lacking in anything that would give any credence.

Once again, you'll need to find better arguments. These have no weight to them whatsoever.


----------



## Tanaka (Jan 9, 2011)

Ronin, anyone can claim to be teaching from a "dead ryu"

They just steal the name and say "hey I am teaching so and so...." or they say "We are reconstructing this ryu from books and scrolls"


But what you really should ask is... Who taught/passed the system down to them? Or a list of their lineage.  If that cannot be provided, please stop bothering showing us every person who is claiming to teach dead Ninjutsu ryu.


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 9, 2011)

Actually Tanaka, I'm teaching Koga Ryu.

Where did I learn?  Uh.  Um.  Its a secret.  My master said I cannot tell or he will send other ninja after me to pull out my toenails.

What do you mean why does it look like Wing Chung?  Didn't know know that ninjitsu comes from China, and that there were ninja in Korea too?  Duh.

Well, sure our main weapon is a fencing foil.  Ninja's learned to use whatever weapons were available and they stole those from the Dutch when they came over to Japan to trade guns. 

Oh, those Escrima sticks and the Kali moves?  Well, you know one ninja got his hand-bo broken in half once and thats why our ryu has those... 

I'll sell you my home study course for 14.95 ok?  It teaches the secrets of the kuji.   Just make the Check out to An-shoe Zombie


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 9, 2011)

I asked my sensei, and he clarified it for me. It was essentially as I thought.

Koga ryu (singular) nin*jutsu* is a specific ryuha which died (for all we know) with Fujita Seiko.
Koga ryu (plural) nin*po* are the elements in our ninpo curriculum which originate from ryuha associated with the Koga region.

In other words: the information on the website was perfectly valid and correct, and does not mean that Tanemura sensei has learned Koga ryu ninjutsu. And indeed, it is not listed among the systems Soke ever trained in.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 10, 2011)

What...?!

I give a sensible, logical and clear answer, and suddenly this thread dies?
No _'I see, you were right all along'_?
No _'Perhaps I was a bit hasty'?_
No _'Maybe it would indeed be good to do a bit more homework before making bold statements'?_

Ah well. At least the Genbukan Koga ryu argument has died


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 10, 2011)

but, Surely Ashida Kim is legit right?


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 10, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> but, Surely Ashida Kim is legit right?



Well, he is probably not an illegal immigrant if that's what you mean.
Although with a name like that it's hard to be sure


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jan 10, 2011)

Sorry gents, Mr. Kim _is_ legit! I took a look at one of his books and on page 14 he's teaching me the forbidden fire-air finger technique which you can use to kill enemies through solid walls. Once I get my kills up enough I'm gonna see if he can teach me the Spirit Bomb and Kamehameha techs as well...


----------



## Rayban (Jan 10, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Sorry gents, Mr. Kim _is_ legit! I took a look at one of his books and on page 14 he's teaching me the forbidden fire-air finger technique which you can use to kill enemies through solid walls. Once I get my kills up enough I'm gonna see if he can teach me the Spirit Bomb and Kamehameha techs as well...




Nice man.  Very nice 

Just don't train too hard or you'll blow up a planet and for some reason time will dialate, making 5 minutes last 3 hours.... or 7 episodes.


----------



## Muawijhe (Jan 10, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Sorry gents, Mr. Kim _is_ legit! I took a look at one of his books and on page 14 he's teaching me the forbidden fire-air finger technique which you can use to kill enemies through solid walls. Once I get my kills up enough I'm gonna see if he can teach me the Spirit Bomb and Kamehameha techs as well...


 
Pfft, beginner. I already have my black belt in ninjitsu, proving Ashida Kim is legit. I think it took me all of a few minutes to earn it, too. That's how good of a teacher he is...


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jan 10, 2011)

Muawijhe said:


> Pfft, beginner. I already have my black belt in ninjitsu, proving Ashida Kim is legit. I think it took me all of a few minutes to earn it, too. That's how good of a teacher he is...



I think you misunderstood... I may be new to Mr. Kim's school of training but I have a black belt of the n^th degree in Dux Ryu. I'm so high up that I can't disclose the exact grade or show anyone who is not part of the school my certificates lest their heads explode. Plus I have in my possession a complete hand subbed copy of the anime Basilisk which is the ONLY true and accurate account of the IGA and KOGA ninjas from back when they were x-men rejects who could fly and were mutants. Nyah!


----------



## Carol (Jan 10, 2011)

_*Hadouken!!*_


----------



## Indagator (Jan 11, 2011)

Ashida Kim and Frank Dux? Yeah right, neither of them even have any tails*, they'll never be able to power up past SS3 or go all Golden Ozaru when they flip out.


Cos ninjas flip out. All the time. And kill, like, hundreds of people. Especially pirates.




*(Not to mention neither of them are named after vegetables or have, AFAIK, ever summoned wish-granting dragons on multiple planets... Pfffft. who hasn't done that?)

Brussel Sprout out.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 11, 2011)

I prefer Death Kwon Do!

http://theregularshow.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Kwon_Do

[yt]p5ALa3CN3bA[/yt]

[yt]rdA8bAU7veM&feature=channel[/yt]


Forgive me I have kids!


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jan 12, 2011)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I prefer Death Kwon Do!
> 
> http://theregularshow.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Kwon_Do
> 
> ...



Damn youtube! It says "this video is not available in your country"  

I love cartoons so you are forgiven


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 24, 2011)

Wow, 

So I came back to this forum to see if maybe anyone has posted any info and just as I suspected its full of BS... 

Good bye Martial Talk and good riddance!


----------



## elder999 (Jan 24, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Good bye Martial Talk and good riddance!


 
uh-bye! And don't forget to take yer little red wagon with you! :lfao:


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 24, 2011)

What exactly is this supposed to mean??? Im very concerned for the Users of this site... Its very very odd here in this topic.... Like i said I came back to see if the posts were relevant and Im afraid they are not... 

What are you referring to here???
Im sure its meant to be some sort of insult... 

A perfect way to be a true Martial Artist!!

Thank you sir!


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

I'm pretty sure it's a reference to your childish attitude towards the other users of this forum because everyone doesn't agree with you. Sorry but I find this thread quite the opposite. Yes it has random Anime references, yeah it has Pro Athletes pulling moves out of Streetfighter, Yes it has cartoons but it ALSO has authentic, historic information relating to the different schools out there and what they claim to be teaching. You said you were doing a doco on all types of back woods ninjer groups (except the ones that are spouting crazy stuff) yet when someone points out why Koga Ryu ninjutsu is a fallacy, you claim the whole site is BS. I'm sure there are plenty of sites out there that will give you what you want. For a back woods ninja school you may be interested in, check out Kevin Hawthorne (www.khninja.com) I'm not going to say he's legit or a fraud or anything like that. He teaches some skills that would probably interest you and a lot of other people, then again he teaches some weaponry that isn't traditionally Ninjutsu. To each their own. On this forum though, you probably won't have the best luck getting any "good" feedback on the people mentioned above. 

All the best. Bye. Please close the door on your way out.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 25, 2011)

Well, 

To be honest I'm having a difficult time finding this post to be relevant to the question at hand.. although many users of this site are very helpful and informative I was referring to this thread in particular when I mentioned that it was full of BS.. and as for me being childish once again I find that there are more insults thrown back and forth rather than encouragement for each others growth in martial arts... 

I feel that people such as yourself are simply taking to far into the fact that you feel that your Busting Frauds and weeding out the fakes... 

There are a lot of different approaches to many Martial Arts and weather you want to accept the fact or not that people WILL do there own thing regardless of what an old guy in japan has to say about it, we will continue to train hard and persevere! 

I find it funny that this whole Ninjutsu General discussion topic has so many bashers in it, and very few who encourage growth!

I hope that in time people that read this will understand that all it takes is acceptance of others to find a peace between us...

I hope that your Martial Arts training is blessed and your life filled with love to help fill your void....

Thank you!


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Well,
> 
> To be honest I'm having a difficult time finding this post to be relevant to the question at hand.. although many users of this site are very helpful and informative I was referring to this thread in particular when I mentioned that it was full of BS



It is not full of BS. The last couple of posts were poking fun, since this thread had been abandoned from the moment I debunked the 'koga ryu in Genbukan' issue that ronin had been pushing. Up to there this was a serious discussion. So that is about 80 posts of serious discussion, with an undisputable conclusion, followed by some joking when ronin did not want to admit he was wrong and disappeared.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> There are a lot of different approaches to many Martial Arts and weather you want to accept the fact or not that people WILL do there own thing regardless of what an old guy in japan has to say about it, we will continue to train hard and persevere!



And if you had read my previous posts, you would have known that we are not saying anything bad about that. Have fun and train hard. I never claimed that you need an old guy in Japan. However, if there are no documented links with Japan and a decent transmission of knowledge, what they are doing is not ninjutsu. It's a Japanese name for a very specific system with specific concepts. Even ignoring lineage issues: much of what these groups are doing is going against the concepts embedded in authentic ninjutsu. So why use the ninjutsu name? That's like saying a bulldozer is a ferrari because it has wheels. They're 2 different things. Not better or worse, but for different conditions.




Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I find it funny that this whole Ninjutsu General discussion topic has so many bashers in it, and very few who encourage growth!
> 
> I hope that in time people that read this will understand that all it takes is acceptance of others to find a peace between us...
> 
> I hope that your Martial Arts training is blessed and your life filled with love to help fill your void....



We encourage growth. We just don't encourage people to abuse the 'ninjutsu' moniker for things that are really not ninjutsu at all, because they go against all the concepts that ARE ninjutsu.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I hope that your Martial Arts training is blessed and your life filled with love to help fill your void....



No void here.
But if you really think we are being meanies, then please go over to budoseek or martialartsplanet or bullshido and ask them for advice.


----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 25, 2011)

Sure thing...

Thank you for your response... 

Blessings to you!


----------



## mook jong man (Jan 25, 2011)




----------



## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 25, 2011)

WHAT??? Im not to sure about the last one there??? 

Is it another Insult?? 
 Thank you for your PICS??


----------



## Cryozombie (Jan 25, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> What exactly is this supposed to mean??? Im very concerned for the Users of this site... Its very very odd here in this topic.... Like i said I came back to see if the posts were relevant and Im afraid they are not...
> 
> What are you referring to here???
> Im sure its meant to be some sort of insult...
> ...



A true martial artist also keeps his word... I thought you quit Martial Talk?


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> A true martial artist also keeps his word... I thought you quit Martial Talk?



Yep. If you get all huffed up with indignation and tell people you'll leave, the polite thing is to follow trough.

Please let us know where you go to. If you think you are being treated mean here, you have no idea what you are going to be treated like on MAP or budoseek.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jan 25, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Wow,
> 
> So I came back to this forum to see if maybe anyone has posted any info and just as I suspected its full of BS...
> 
> Good bye Martial Talk and good riddance!


 
So the question has to be, why did you bother to post this comment in the first place? I'm actually going to go back to your original post, as well as parts of the thread itself, and point out why you have had the responses you have, as well as highlighting your reactions to them. This probably won't be pretty....



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Im trying to find as many small orginzations in ninjutsu to exammine and gather as much info as possible, Im looking for little dojos and small groups. Not the Kans...
> 
> Any suggestions???


 
This (above) is your original post. Essentially, we had no idea what you actually meant here, hence my request for clarification right below: 



Chris Parker said:


> Hi,
> 
> I notice in your Meet and Greet post that you state you direct/operate a Ninjutsu training dojo. Can I ask what you are refering to there, if it is not one of the 'kans?
> 
> With regard to the above post, not really sure what you're after there. Are you after the less-legit (Neo-Ninja) groups? Honestly, if you are, the info is not going to actually be much to do with actual Ninjutsu, the Kan's and the various split offs from them are going to be your best source.


 
Frankly, to be Ninjutsu an art requires a historical link to the arts associated with the ninja of Japan (and by that I mean a real link, not taking the name of a long-dead Ryu and attaching it to whatever you make up). So Neo-Ninja groups don't qualify there, I'm afraid. The only legit groups (in other words, the only ones with any actual claim to the title Ninjutsu) are those that have passed through Takamatsu, which means Genbukan, Jinenkan, and of course Bujinkan. Now, there are a number of smaller split-off groups, and one larger one (Toshindo) that can also claim the same thing, in terms of those schools in the US, I only know of a couple (and a few in Canada, then one or two in Europe, and some in Australia), however I don't have details on their exact locations, nor am I about to vouch for any of them staying true to the historic systems (quite a few seem to have gone in rather odd directions, for example). For that, you would need to hear from those who are either studying or teaching in those schools, or at least aware of them in their location.

Now, you have come along here to ask for that, which is fine, but you have then gotten rather upset at the fact that no-one fitting that description answered... which is most likely due to the fact that the membership of this forum isn't gigantic (few are, really), and the very limited section of the Ninjutsu community you are asking for simply aren't members here or probably anywhere. You then got further upset when it was pointed out that unless there was the aforementioned historical link, we would not accept that fantasy-driven ramblings of people with no business being allowed near a dojo, let alone teaching, writing books etc are actually anything to do with Ninjutsu, and therefore, to us, have no place if you are actually looking for Ninjutsu. Okay?

Then:



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> I was under the impression this was for General Ninjutsu discussions, Ive got a small project Im working on independently to find all there is out there.. Im very aware of all the Tew ryu, Dux ryu, Ashida Kim and Chosen... Which to be honest I like the Chosen guy.... Im not to worried about the Big-Kans due to all the back and fourth debate as to who's who and what's what.. I study the teachings of all that are teaching... I think the whole picture is great and a mystery in it self,
> 
> Simply put if there is a guy you know of, teaching a Ninjutsu style or running a Dojo, Im simply looking for a little info on them..
> 
> Please try not to read into this to much its really simple...


 
I'm going to take that one bit by bit....

This is the General Ninjutsu forum. That means that general discussion of Ninjutsu happens here, not that it is the non Bujinkan forum. It is more about training ideas, products, various teachers etc etc etc. The other is the Traditional Forum, which deals with Ryu-ha specific concepts, history, and so forth. You seem to be mis-interpretting what the forum is about.

You like Choson Ninja? Everyone has their own taste, but for the record, he has nothing to do with Ninjutsu whatsoever. And, to be honest, he leaves a lot to be desired as a martial artist. 

The whole picture is indeed great... but it doesn't include the above-mentioned groups. At all. They have as much to do with Ninjutsu as crepe suzette does.

I'm going to skip over things such as "I am a student of Nin (?)" .... and "Our Ryu is doing just what ninja or bushi alike would do... Gather Info... (?)", as these are just out in so many ways, showing a great lack of understanding of this subject, which is really the crux of your issues with the forum.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Once again to specify, Im simply looking for anything I may have not seen or found myself.. Im simply looking for the names and info of small groups that are training in Ninjutsu.. Ive read the stickies and ive read the posting for newbies and all that... Im interested in finding back woods groups like mine.. its nothing else...
> 
> If you must know Im working towards producing a documentary on the American Ninja Movements.. So people like Rick Tew, Frank Dux Ect are people Ive researched... Its to simply dig deeper into Mask that Ninjutsu has created for itself..
> 
> ...


 
And here they start to appear.

Rick Tew and Frank Dux are some of those that I refered to above. Researching them is nothing to do with researching Ninjutsu, so we wouldn't be recommending them (waiting for Josh to chime in now....). When it comes to you deciding this forum is "sketchy", that is simply you not getting the answers you wanted, mainly due, as I said, to the people training in these systems not posting here, and those concerned with actual Ninjutsu not classing those as Ninjutsu, therefore not relevant to the discussion. Asking for something is fine, again, but getting huffy because you don't get an answer, or the answer you want is frankly rather childish. I'd suggest growing up.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> My question was simply to find some info on schools, Im not looking for an authority in ninjutsu...


 
You may not have been looking for an authority in Ninjutsu, but by posting on a forum dedicated to Ninjutsu, you will find people who know what it is. And frankly when they pointed out the problems with your approach, your knowledge, your experience, your terminology, and so on, you have decided that we are out to attack you. We're not. We're trying to correct you so that you can learn and grow in the arts. If you can't take that on board, then frankly don't post on a forum.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Mostly to verify the entire aspect of ninjutsu... I love Bujinkan don't get me wrong, But as I Examined To-Shin-Do it seemed more welcoming and the curriculum was great! Ive had run ins with Kan folks like everyone does..
> 
> To be honest.. Im not here to let every one tear apart my school or my teachers... I was here to learn and express a love of an art..
> 
> ...


 
The thing that strikes me here is that you seem to see a difference (in terms of what makes up the teachings) between Toshindo and the Bujinkan. Toshindo is Steve Hayes' organisation, and is based primarily on his training and decades of experience in the Bujinkan. It is really just a different approach to the same material. Teaching styles can and do vary, but to think that the Bujinkan arts and the Toshindo arts are that removed shows lack of understanding of those as well.

At this point there was no mocking, you are frankly being far too sensitive and seeing things that aren't there. The "underlined" comments are also not present. Seriously, go visit MAP, see how you go there. Questions are not attacks, neither are corrections. If you can't handle them, avoid all forums. This is the gentlest you will find in this area.



Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> What exactly is this supposed to mean??? Im very concerned for the Users of this site... Its very very odd here in this topic.... Like i said I came back to see if the posts were relevant and Im afraid they are not...
> 
> What are you referring to here???
> Im sure its meant to be some sort of insult...
> ...


 
It means, as Supra said, you are acting like a child demanding attention. You left for a few weeks, came back, and made the initial post quoted in this post... why? Then, to top it off, you didn't go anywhere! You started another thread two hours later!

The other thing I'm noting here is that you seem to be only able to take things absolutely literally. You show no ability to determine the symbolic message in posts such as Elder's, or the other less-literal postings here. Every post that doesn't agree with you is someone rejecting you, or mocking you. No, they aren't. Honestly that makes me wonder about whether or not you have been checked for any form of mental disorder. That is not an attack, it is a legitimate question. Your posting style shows a rather odd thought process, which leads me to believe that something may be there.. although I'm not going to voice what I think that is. But if there is something that may help us understand you, let us know. If we assume (as we tend to) that you are rational, sane, possess critical thinking, and so on, then you are posting rather oddly. On the other hand, if there is something there, we will take that into account when addressing you (note: that will not make your invented Ryu with no real experience nor Ryu structure legit or necessarily accepted... but we will know where you are coming from). Okay?



Chris Parker said:


> Really, it's as was said at the beginning of this thread. If Kumori Ryu is after something authentic, something that can legitimately be called Ninjutsu, then all he's got to look at is the Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan, and legitimate off-shoots (note: not people who took a bit of training in a Kan, then went off and came back as "Soke" or "An-Shu", or even "Menkyo Kaiden" in arts that have no substantiation, or even particular skill-sets that don't have those titles applied to them. I'm sure you can think of who I'm refering to here....). If the actual authentic aspect doesn't matter, and it's just anyone with the cool badge, using the name whether there's anything to support it or not, then he can look at a lot of groups, but it really defeats the idea of looking for "ninjutsu" in the first place. After all, if it's not Ninjutsu, it's not Ninjutsu, no matter what it's called.



Read this again.

Then read it again.


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jan 25, 2011)

Kumori, if you still care I can tell you about Jizaikan Aiki Ninjutsu.

Our founder was a 4th dan in the bujinkan and taught in Toshindo for a long time before splittling off and doing his own thing. Our system has teachings from 12 martial arts traditions.

Koto Ryu
Gyokko Ryu
Togakure Ryu
Gikan Ryu
Kumogakure Ryu
Gyokushin Ryu
Eishin Ryu
Kukishin Ryu
Daito Ryu
Kyu Shin Ryu
Shinden Fudo Ryu
Tagaki Yoshin Ryu

If you are interested you can view more at www.jizaikan.com


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 25, 2011)

Himura Kenshin,

Thank you for the link and Info... Im glad to see that there are a few out there like us!!


Chris Parker, Bruno, 

 Sorry, but youve proven to me that you are not a fan of my school or teachings, very well, point taken thank you! Yes, I do go back and fourth between wanting to leave, However there are a few in the wood work that have shown me that there are good hearted non-baised people on this forum and for that I have decided to stay... 

Thank you again for your input!


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Chris Parker, Bruno,
> 
> Sorry, but youve proven to me that you are not a fan of my school or teachings, very well, point taken thank you! Yes, I do go back and fourth between wanting to leave, However there are a few in the wood work that have shown me that there are good hearted non-baised people on this forum and for that I have decided to stay...
> 
> Thank you again for your input!



So ... we (Chris and I) are not good hearted or non-biased?
You wouldn't know about the first, and you are wrong about the last.
I am very non-biased. It would be better to call me a sceptic.
I believe in authenticity and historical accuracy. You have neither.

I also think that the reason you stay here is because you know that this is about the only forum where you will not be hounded, ridiculed and insulted.
You no doubt feel that Himura Kenshin's story validates your approach, but there is a difference between a 4th dan with a ton of experience, and a 6th kyu newbie who is still discovering the basics. The former is qualified to teach, the latter isn't.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

Sorry this is probably classed as hounding and ridiculing etc and there's not a whole left for me to reply to with all the other posts but:

I'm not weeding out or busting frauds Kumori. I don't have the knowledge, experience and expertise to do so. I'm often just as impressed watching a Sith lightsaber type duel as I am a Kenjutsu kata till someone points out why certain things are wrong or not ideal with the former. I'm learning Ninjutsu myself, a 5th Kyu Green Belt and I'm only just starting to scratch the surface yet that tiny start of a scratch is enough that I don't presume to know what I'm talking about or try teach. If I wanted to fraud bust though, I could get a lot meaner but I won't because I like this forum and don't particularly want to get banned over something so silly...

Secondly the finding peace between us makes me think of gang wars. Like Bloods vs Crips or something. I'm just sayin....

Oh and as for the void, why do I want to fill it? Go back and ask your instructor, moving/acting from the "void" is the highest ideal in Ninpo and we all know Ninpo becomes a way of life so it makes sense that you can apply the same ideals outside your art. Something that'll take years if not decades to get to. Having had exposure to To-Shin-Do, I'm sure you're aware of the elemental approach to the Sanshin. Kuu no Kata (Void form) is what we aim for. It's right there in your signature by the way. "Mu-Shin" No Mind... Use No Mind. Not ridiculous fantasies, arguments or tantrums (from anyone on either side, not attacking you per se) but calm, controlled actions and behaviours. That's how I'd say I'm starting to see "training in Nin" anyway.

As I said, good luck finding whatever it is you hope to find


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## Kumori Ryu Ninja (Jan 25, 2011)

Thank you for your post supra,

I have nothing but the best of wishes for you...

Take care...


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 25, 2011)

Mr. Maienza's credentials (Founder of Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu):

30+ years continuous training in martial arts 
7th dan in Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu
7th dan in kyu shin ryu aiki jujutsu
5th dan Toshindo and Shihan instructor in Hayes organization
5th dan American jujitsu
4th dan bujinkan ninpo
3rd dan aikido
1st dan shotokan karate
1st dan kodokan judo
1st dan tae kwon do

Mr. Eichenberg's credentials (dojo-cho of Warrior's Edge Martial Arts and Jizaikan Kan-cho)

30+ years continuous training in martial arts
5th dan Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu
3rd dan Toshindo and senior instructor in Haye's organization
Graduate of Executive Security International
USMC marksmanship instructor
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is why Mr. Mienza can create his own organization and people don't question it, because he has master level ranking in other martial arts.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Mr. Maienza's credentials (Founder of Jizaikan aiki ninjutsu):
> 
> 30+ years continuous training in martial arts
> 7th dan in Daito Ryu aiki jujutsu
> ...


 
Hey Himura, NO disrespect intended at all here but how did he manage to get 5th Dan in Toshindo and a 4th Dan in the Booj? I thought the 2 were kinda mutually exclusive? Not to mention the whole you can't train in another organization when training with the Kans thing. Just curious. No doubts in the world that he's got mad skillz


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## ronin7411 (Jan 25, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> It is not full of BS. The last couple of posts were poking fun, since this thread had been abandoned from the moment I debunked the 'koga ryu in Genbukan' issue that ronin had been pushing. Up to there this was a serious discussion. So that is about 80 posts of serious discussion, with an undisputable conclusion, followed by some joking when ronin did not want to admit he was wrong and disappeared.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING. 

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html 

http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

Sorry Bruno, I know this was addressed to you and I'm not trying to speak for you in any way but could I ask a couple of quick questions here?:

A) What does us having memberships on MAP et al have anything to do with anything? 

b) When were you bothered? (obviously I don't know about any PM's etc but purely based on this thread, no one has said anything to you except in reply to when you posted. The bulk of this thread has been back and forth between us delusional children and Kumori Ryu Ninja)

By taking the time to find those links and post this reply telling us to leave you alone, you've successfully pulled yourself away from your training - with no help from us!


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## ronin7411 (Jan 25, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Sorry Bruno, I know this was addressed to you and I'm not trying to speak for you in any way but could I ask a couple of quick questions here?:
> 
> A) What does us having memberships on MAP et al have anything to do with anything?
> 
> ...



A) That's simple you're going to run into the same people there telling you the same thing and doing the same activities here which is also called trolling 

B) You don't seem to remember when I told Chris (should I also point out that you address as Sensei) to grow up and if he can't handle the same criticism he gives other people to shut up and don't say anything at all

By the way Supra I believe I was correcting something that Bruno said that I disappeared after the Koga Ryu connection to the Genbukan was proven to be "wrong" and besides like I said you X-kans have more problems to worry about than me a fake Koga ryu practitioner. I can start off with one of your future concerns... student retention since the X-kans are having that problem just like they did with keeping Bussey, Hayes, Law, and Loriega in the Bujinkan.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

A) Fair enough. I have an account on MAP because I like to see different view points on things and different attitudes. Sometimes even learn from what's posted and then post it myself somewhere else (with due credit where due). If that makes me a Troll, so be it. 

B) Uhh you pointing it out or not pointing it out makes no difference. He is my instructor and a damn good one. If the issue for you is that I call him Sensei it's because I was raised to give respect to my seniors and I use the term to mean 'One who has gone before me' rather than just "Teacher" not because he demands it. In fact there's a thread on here where he's told me that I needn't bother with it because this isn't the Dojo. So not exactly sure why you thought you had to mention that. Not even gonna dignify that criticism comment...

Oh right, my apologies, that post did refer to you didn't it? How bout we leave the student retention to the people actually in charge of the X-Kans yeah? Something tells me they may just possibly have some idea of what they're doing. Oh and for the record... I'm not X-Kan...


----------



## Aiki Lee (Jan 25, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Hey Himura, NO disrespect intended at all here but how did he manage to get 5th Dan in Toshindo and a 4th Dan in the Booj? I thought the 2 were kinda mutually exclusive? Not to mention the whole you can't train in another organization when training with the Kans thing. Just curious. No doubts in the world that he's got mad skillz


 

maienza trained in the bujinkan from the early 80s and trained with Hayes privately. From my understanding he wanted to experience the teachings passed on through the Bujinkan as well as Haye's interpretation of it. I'm not a great historian on when he did what exactly, but I have seen both his certificates of rank from both organizations.

The man really did spend almost his entire life training. I know he trained in both aikijujutsu arts simultanously and I believe he trained in American Jujitsu while helping run Toshindo.

I don't know all the details, but I know he did it.


----------



## Supra Vijai (Jan 25, 2011)

Oh not questioning the authenticity aspect at all. I was just asking because it's been mentioned a few times that it's not very common to train in a Kan and in another organisation as well. Also Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was what modern Aikido was based on right? The more brutal version associated with the Hell Dojo? Are you able to tell me why there is such a big focus on grappling type of arts?

I mean you have 2 Japanese Jujutsu systems, Aikido, Judo, American Jujitsu

I do realise there are more: Shotokan, TKD, BBT & TSD Ninpo but 5 outta the 9 arts seem to be geared towards some form of grappling? Does that reflect a fair bit in the training? Would you guys say you're more specialist rather than generalist? Once again, only asking out of curiousity about other systems


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## Cryozombie (Jan 25, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> I can start off with one of your future concerns... student retention since the X-kans are having that problem just like they did with keeping Bussey, Hayes, Law, and Loriega in the Bujinkan.



LOL.  

Wow man, you got us there.  Some of the BEST MOST DEDICATED PRACTITIONERS on THAT list.


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## Chris Parker (Jan 25, 2011)

Kumori Ryu Ninja said:


> Himura Kenshin,
> 
> Thank you for the link and Info... Im glad to see that there are a few out there like us!!
> 
> ...


 
(I'm still grumpy, by the way... and things like this don't help)

I'm going to be blunt. We're neither fans nor detractors of your school or teachings. To my mind you have no school and have no teachings for us to be fans or detractors of. You simply don't have the experience, knowledge, understanding, or anything else that would actually be required. Just because we don't accept that a 6th Kyu with only a couple years training (and from the looks of things, a fair bit of that without an instructor?) can in no way create their own Ryu (for a number of reasons, including your knowledge, your understanding of the systems or even what a Ryu actually is, and the fact that there can be no new Ninjutsu systems whatsoever! None! It's impossible to create one as the requisite circumstances to create one do not exist anymore!) does not make us biased, it makes us critical. We have examined your claims, and find them incredibly lacking, to say it gently. That is not bias, it is observation.

Put it this way, someone goes to a French restaurant, talks to the staff and chef there, tries a few dishes, becomes a regular for a while. You visit them, and they serve you tacos, telling you that it's classical French cuisine, and they're teaching other people to cook. Is it biased to point out that tacos are not French cuisine, and after simply visiting a restaurant (rather than going through an apprenticeship, becoming a soux chef, and eventually making your way to being a chef properly) and starting to teach people French classical cooking is not realistic or even reality? Seriously, I want an answer to that. Is it bias to point out that tacos are not French cuisine, and the person has no business "teaching French cuisine"?



ronin7411 said:


> Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.
> 
> http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html
> 
> [URL="http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html"]http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html[/URL]


 
Seriously, you think that clip sums up our approach here? Which do you think we are, the donkey? You're a little out of touch with reality yourself, son. That actually fits you rather perfectly (we'd be the guy saying that Kevin Bacon was the star of Footloose there...). In terms of us being "children" who "live in a delusional world" where we alone are right.... son, what are you going on about here? You're saying that the only accepted lineages across all boards, all martial art registries, all verifiable histories, the only ones that actually have any chance at being historically valid, are the ones living in a delusional world, but those (such as yourself) who seek out systems that have no relationship to anything even close to reality, are fine? Do you understand how fractured your take on reality is here?

As for the "early pioneers" leaving to do their own thing, some have, some haven't. You'll need to do better than "people change", you know. As for your examples, Hayes' time in the system lends his Toshindo a fair degree of credibility, something that Ron Collins and others don't have. Robert Bussey, well, Bob is actually a good friend of my Chief Instructors', so I've been privy to a bit of the behind the scenes details there. Bob hasn't refered to his teachings as Ninjutsu for quite a while, and his approach to martial arts has been seperated from the Ninjutsu arts since the 90's, which he freely admits, so not a good example either. As for James Loriega, he was only with the Bujinkan for a tiny amount of time, he then went to Ron Duncan, to learn Ron's "Koga Ryu" system, which has no connection to anything relating to the arts of Ninjutsu other than mis-appropriating the name. It's based in a little bit of skill in a Jujutsu system, with Okinawan, Chinese, and Japanese weapons added in, as well as some Karate. Not an example of anything legitimate either.

The documentary is a joke, frankly. Their two "experts" are someone known for having nothing to do with anything legitimate, and as for Antony, he's frankly just a little man with a bent towards self publicity. He has been unable to answer any question I have had for him (and there have been a very large number), and has taken to having one of his cronies swear at me in two page long messages on you-tube. He has no research ability, no understanding of the culture, the language, the history, the traditions, critical thinking, or anything in any way relating to him being close to an "expert" in any way whatsoever. Their choice choice was to basically go with the first two people they could find, with no actual understanding of the subject itself (either the guests or the makers of the "documentaries" themselves.... but then again, that's standard procedure for these things, the History Channel does the same thing, as does Nat. Geographic, and everyone else I've seen). Try again. 



ronin7411 said:


> Supra Vijai said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry Bruno, I know this was addressed to you and I'm not trying to speak for you in any way but could I ask a couple of quick questions here?:
> ...


 
So your first point is that there is concensus in the community that what you're doing has no basis in reality, and you think that because everyone else says the same thing, that makes it wrong....? Huh? Oh, and that's not trolling, son, although what you're doing (interrupting threads with an obvious agenda) is.

Second, you were "bothered" when you told me to grow up (?), were you? How exactly does you acting like a spoiled tantrum-throwing child equate to you being "bothered"? Frankly, son, you are the one that needs to grow up. And as for my handling criticism, I'm a fair bit better at it than you are, I can actually debate these issues, and have many many times before. You just haven't brought anything that requires much attention, as it's been gone through many times before.

And oh, my word, what on earth are you talking about at the end there? The Bujinkan, to take an example, is about 250,000 members these days.... and frankly, many feel that it's far too big, so student retention isn't really a concern there. I've gone through Hayes and Bussey, and touched on Loriega, but when it comes to Law, are you really that delusional? The guy hosted a few seminars in Canada in the early 80's in order to get his photo taken with the instructors (including Hatsumi), didn't even train at them, and used those photo's to generate some form of credibility. He was never really "part" of the Bujinkan, despite his claims (which are frankly ludicrous when it comes down to it).

I'm going to suggest the same thing to you as to Kumori there.... go post on MAP. See how you go there.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.
> 
> http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html
> 
> http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html



A couple of things.

1) If you get PMs you think are harrassing or such, use the 'report' button.
2) MAP and budoseek are different sites. How you get treated there is not my problem.
3) While it is indeed true that people are splitting away from the Booj, you'll notice that none of us is saying anything bad from it because the people who do generally were trained to a full understanding of the art, or at least a good enough understanding that they stay true to the concepts involved. The founders of Jinenkan and Genbukan had menkyo kaiden in the dominant arts. Hayes broke away at 10 dan or so. chris' senseiat 5th dan. Are you suggesting that a 6th kyu student has a solid understanding of the arts and the experience and skill to pass that on?
4) Of course some people tell you not to bother with the kans. Your hero Ashida would be the first. We're the ones who are calling them larpers with zero foundation to claim to teach ninjutsu.
5) You say to not bother you anymore? You're the one who keeps coming back here to argue. You're free to leave at any time.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 25, 2011)

Himura Kenshin said:


> maienza trained in the bujinkan from the early 80s and trained with Hayes privately. From my understanding he wanted to experience the teachings passed on through the Bujinkan as well as Haye's interpretation of it. I'm not a great historian on when he did what exactly, but I have seen both his certificates of rank from both organizations.
> 
> The man really did spend almost his entire life training. I know he trained in both aikijujutsu arts simultanously and I believe he trained in American Jujitsu while helping run Toshindo.
> 
> I don't know all the details, but I know he did it.



In the earlier days, the Bujinkan was not making a big problem about people studying both arts at the same time. I could see that happening. Even today there are still people doing that.


----------



## Chris Parker (Jan 26, 2011)

(Psst.... Bruno..... Mr Roy recieved 6th Dan, rather than 5th, 1990 from memory)


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 26, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> Oh not questioning the authenticity aspect at all. I was just asking because it's been mentioned a few times that it's not very common to train in a Kan and in another organisation as well. Also Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu was what modern Aikido was based on right? The more brutal version associated with the Hell Dojo? Are you able to tell me why there is such a big focus on grappling type of arts?
> 
> I mean you have 2 Japanese Jujutsu systems, Aikido, Judo, American Jujitsu
> 
> I do realise there are more: Shotokan, TKD, BBT & TSD Ninpo but 5 outta the 9 arts seem to be geared towards some form of grappling? Does that reflect a fair bit in the training? Would you guys say you're more specialist rather than generalist? Once again, only asking out of curiousity about other systems


 
I'd say we tend to foucs on everything about the same amount. The 5th lesson we teach our white belts is to strike with every technique so while we are heavy into throws we always, always include striking as well.

One of the ideas behind aiki ninjutsu was to take the techniques found in the other non aiki traditions and do them with aiki movement. In case you're wondering here is a rough breakdown on what is taught:

(this list in not comprehensive)
White-yellow=aiki kihon happo, 16 treasure fists, basic ukemi
yellow-orange= ninpo kihon happo, perform randori while keeping knees bent and back straight to maintain balance
orange-purple= perform techniques using supple power and not overwhelming strength or speed
purple-blue= 1st and 3rd secrets of aiki ninjutsu
blue-green= 2nd and 4th secrets of AN
green-red= 5th secret of AN, work on ju
red-brown= 36 move groundfighting drill, work on kazushi, irimi, tsukuri, kake, 6th secret of AN
brown-brown/black= bo kihon, sword kihon, refinement of skills requiring more work
brown/black-shodan= demonstration of all previous skills in randori, baisc knife defense, multiple attacker randori
1stdan-2nd dan= koto ryu shoden, kuji no bo
2nd dan- 3rd dan= Gyokko ryu jinryaku no maki scroll, sword shoden kata, randori with boken
3rd-4th= Daito ryu, mu to dori randori
4th-5th= togakure ryu
5th-6th= kukishin ryu
6th-7th = shinden fudo ryu
7th-8th = tagaki yoshin ryu
8th-9th= collect remaining kata from all systems in the Jizaikan
9th-10th = create own curriculum and find something new to contribute to aiki ninjutsu

when we focus on a particular school in the dan levels we don't just work on the kata and then forget about it. We use what we determine to be the schools main principles and then apply those methods to the kaa and techniques we have previously learned. For example as a 3rd dan studying daito ryu kata I am attempting to do the koto ryu and gyokko ryu kata I know as if theyw ere being done by a daito ryu practitioner.

It gets kinda hard to explain. I'm trying to get my teacher to post videos of how everyone in our system does the same technique but it changes and evolves at each belt level.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 26, 2011)

I think I see what you are saying: Take the Koto Ryu kata movements for example but apply the philosophy and attitude of Gyokko? (I'm using those 2 because they are 2 systems that I can say I've at least tried). When you say Brown - Brown/Black is Sword Kihon or Brown/Black - Black is Basic knife defence and so forth, do you cover those things before you get to those levels or are the classes seperated into grades/ranks with each rank working on different things?


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 26, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> (Psst.... Bruno..... Mr Roy recieved 6th Dan, rather than 5th, 1990 from memory)



Thanks Chris.
I thought I remembered you saying it was 5th.
Or perhaps 5th is the highest grade in your system and I got confused with that?


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## Chris Parker (Jan 26, 2011)

Yeah, as Mr Roy is 6th Dan, 5th is the highest we go to under him. I'm currently 3rd.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 26, 2011)

Supra Vijai said:


> I think I see what you are saying: Take the Koto Ryu kata movements for example but apply the philosophy and attitude of Gyokko? (I'm using those 2 because they are 2 systems that I can say I've at least tried). When you say Brown - Brown/Black is Sword Kihon or Brown/Black - Black is Basic knife defence and so forth, do you cover those things before you get to those levels or are the classes seperated into grades/ranks with each rank working on different things?


 
These are all indrocued earlier with some other skills as well, but they are not tested for until these specific levels. And yes you seem to have the idea.

So yes, I could take a koto ryu kata, apply a gyokko ryu strategy and perform it in a daito ryu way. Obviously it changes the way the technique looks but not so much that one shouldn't be able to recognize it.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 26, 2011)

Nice. Not being a koryu and therefore not training in a strictly koryu fashion, you can afford to play with the techs like that so might as well make the most of it huh? Oh and just in case that sounds snobby, I don't train in a Koryu either


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 26, 2011)

I don't think it came off as snobby at all. I like the fact we have so many different traditions in our organizations because we have a several lifetimes worth of material to study.


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## Tanaka (Jan 26, 2011)

ronin7411 said:


> Actually Bruno I stood back and wanted to watch the maturity level of Martial Talk's members along with their moderators and to be blunt you guys are a bunch of little children living in a delusional world that only you are right and everyone else is wrong. (should I also bring up that a majority of you have memberships at MAP and Budo Seek too) Since you guys want to act immature and post videos and links showing your stupidity let me reference an episode of Family Guy that best describes the "Ninjutsu experts" opinions and words on here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rltssW5VYxQ&feature=related Oh yeah I want to point something out to you people just in case you haven't noticed it yet after all of these years but all of the most notable Ninjutsu instructors that brought it here from Hatsumi left the Bujinkan to do their own thing. Now why they always leave to do their own thing is between them and Hatsumi (along with I don't care its your guy's school) but its now starting to become a common occurrence with the X-kans is to get a Shidoshi title then give the dojo the bird and do your own thing. Besides I think I should take page from some of the Ninjutsu practitioners I looked up to when I was younger like Stephen Hayes, Robert Bussey, and James Loriega and say forget you guys and the X-kans you're more trouble than you're worth. Also did you guys see this documentary on Ninjutsu from Martial Arts View you guys have more problems to worry about than I do so take care and don't bother me anymore I have to do some ACTUAL TRAINING.
> 
> http://www.martialartsview.com/index-172.html
> 
> http://www.martialartsview.com/index-173.html



That's funny... because that episode actually reminds me of YOU.
You reject what people are telling you, because you want to do your own thing.  Only until NOW have you even started pronouncing "Ninjutsu" correctly.

And problems from Anthony? You mean the guy who doesn't really have any understanding of Japanese concepts. He doesn't realize that Ninpo is a concept... the physical techniques are just projection of the philosophy.


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## Supra Vijai (Jan 26, 2011)

You mean if I won't actually be able to use Gyokko Ryu Ichimonji no Kata against an attacker on the street? :O What about when I'm sword fighting my opponent? Surely when I take Daijodan to show dominance at the end of my kata he will revert to Waki to show submission before we bow out?


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