# How many of you come from a Traditional MArtial arts Background and why did you chan



## CHUNNER (Mar 19, 2003)

I started my training in Wado ryu karate and then moved to Wing Chun partly in order to address what I perceived to be gaps in the Wado repertoire. We then added in elements of submission grappling and boxing to round out the system. What I now train in is essentially a mixed martial art (I prefer the term blended) consisting of Wing Chun, Wado Ryu, Boxing, Fma and Submission grappling. I think this is a fairly well rounded blend covering most situations.

I would be interested in hearing what styles other MMA practitioners started off in and how they ended up where they are now.


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## JDenz (Mar 19, 2003)

I started in wrestling and then did Karate.  Now I started doing submission boxing and started to change my stand up to a more MT stlyeof fighting.


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## James Kovacich (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *I started in wrestling and then did Karate.  Now I started doing submission boxing and started to change my stand up to a more MT stlyeof fighting. *



UMMMMMM, submission boxing, is this a new art and are you the grandmaster?


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## James Kovacich (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by CHUNNER _
> *I started my training in Wado ryu karate and then moved to Wing Chun partly in order to address what I perceived to be gaps in the Wado repertoire. We then added in elements of submission grappling and boxing to round out the system. What I now train in is essentially a mixed martial art (I prefer the term blended) consisting of Wing Chun, Wado Ryu, Boxing, Fma and Submission grappling. I think this is a fairly well rounded blend covering most situations.
> 
> I would be interested in hearing what styles other MMA practitioners started off in and how they ended up where they are now. *



Actually I do both. I started out in Kajukenbo but there was no mixed martial arts and JKD was not widely exposed.

Even though I do both, my outlook on "all arts" is an understanding on how well I perform at martial arts whether it is tradional or not, does not matter.

All that matters is how I execute. You may see some "weakness" in someones arts, but that may be because they have not been exposed to much. If you train in JKD for example, it does not mean that you cannot practice in a traditional fashion.

We as individuals need to assess ourselves. The traditional arts do still have a lot to offer. We just need to understand the ability to draw from these arts and apply the knowledge.


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## JDenz (Mar 19, 2003)

I meant submissions lol then a comma


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## James Kovacich (Mar 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *I meant submissions lol then a comma *



I couldn't resist.


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## JDenz (Mar 19, 2003)

lol all good


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## redfang (May 25, 2003)

Wrestled for years as a teen.  Moved into kenpo as an adult. Discovered NHB and added shootfighting to training reg. to fill in the gaps for groundwork. (After I learned that a lot of folk wrestling reflexes are not suitable for submission style or NHB.)


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## twinkletoes (May 26, 2003)

I've been doing Kenpo karate since age 8 (15 years now), Modern Arnis since age 10 (13 years).  Lots of other TMA experience.  

I do BJJ now almost exclusively (I still do Arnis, but my standup training is running madly towards JKD).  

I switched because in BJJ I can practice my techniques full-out, on a resisting opponent, and gauge the *acutal* results, not the theoretical results.  It works or it doesn't.  And I know the difference.  This is not something I had in Kenpo ("then you hit him here, and he goes like this..." sound familiar?).  

My practice is now and forever alive, thanks to BJJ

~Chris


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## MartialArtist (Jun 11, 2003)

I come from traditional arts (combat TKD/hapkido/yudo, collegiate and freestyle wrestling, boxing) and have trained in some very minimal shootfighting when I had the chance (Japan).  I train in TMA, but the way I train is somewhat the way many MMAists train minus the MMA sport aspects for ring fighting.  But just comparing RING fighting, I'd rather train in MMA than TMA.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 11, 2003)

I did Kenpo since I was 12 -- 30 years ago.  Also did some Shotokan, some Aikijujitsu, and some Escrima.  Realized I've been waisting my time doing too much Kata and talking too much about "principles" and "the right way to do a technique" and not enough time actually doing it.  Now doing BJJ exclusively.

Now that I am over 40, BJJ is best for me because I've gotten near-sighted, can't see a punch to block it, and have to be close enough to hug in order to see without my glasses.


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## JDenz (Jun 11, 2003)

lol i am with you there OFK


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## MartialArtist (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *I've been doing Kenpo karate since age 8 (15 years now), Modern Arnis since age 10 (13 years).  Lots of other TMA experience.
> 
> I do BJJ now almost exclusively (I still do Arnis, but my standup training is running madly towards JKD).
> ...


Tell that to some of the hardcore kenpo people here

In general, I would avoid anything that claimed it was the most effective system, be it MMA or TMA or an infomercial.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

MartialArtist:

Chris and I have been trying to tell this to the hardcore Kenpo people for a while now.  Standard responses seem to revolve around the concept of "my Kenpo is so effective that my opponent will be anhialated before they ever touch me" and "Kenpo includes effective ground techniques" and "Kenpo is an all inclusive art containing every possible principle, concept, or training method anyone would ever need to know to defend themselves".  A couple of people have found our arguments interesting and are doing some research, but most have just ignored us.


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## twinkletoes (Jun 16, 2003)

MartialArtist - 

I was careful *not* to say that anything is more or most effective, as an art or a training method.  I just said that my training is now different because I can guage the results, wheareas earlier I could not.  Also, now I train against live resistance.  

You are correct in your interpretation that I find this much more realistic and effective.  I will say that again for others reading this:  *I FIND THIS* much more realistic and effective.  That doesn't mean it necessarily is--I am merely giving an observation from my own experience about how I find something.  

I also find it more fun, but that is also my opinion from my experience, and likewise is a statement more about my own tastes than anything else.  

I appreciate, however, your concern for posts that get people all riled.  It is not my intention to ruffle feathers here, though I may do so.  And if anyone takes offense to what I've posted, tell me why.  Perhaps we misunderstand each other.

Best,

~Twinkletoes


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## twinkletoes (Jun 16, 2003)

Although I will add that OFK is right--our statements are not taken very seriously by the Kenpo community at large, even when they probably should be.  

~TT


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## Jotaro Joestar (Jun 30, 2003)

I am curious for the people coming from other roots, did you switch styles because you were not seeing the results in all-around seld defense that you wanted immeditately?
or...
Did you see serious flaws in the styles that you were previously studying?
or...
Did you have serious issues with your instructor?


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## twinkletoes (Jul 1, 2003)

I can't speak for everyone, but my changeover is really because of the more realistic training, which comes through aliveness.

The old style I studied had good basics, and included sparring, which are both great.  However, the emphasis in training and teaching was in prearranged solo or cooperative movements.  It was training choreography, but preaching spontanaeity and improvisation, which were never trained or practiced.  The allowed sparring was also limiting to the point that it became unrealistic--too many moves and targets were "against the rules."  

Now I am all for safe training, but being safe doesn't rule out being effective.  Training methods like those above teach little except for basic movements, and lack a true sense of timing and distancing, which are crucial for navigating a chaotic and unpredictable environment.

My instructor, now retired, was a man who understood the shortcomings of traditional training.  He crosstrained through his entire career, from boxing and full contact karate tournaments to Filipino martial arts.  I have a world of respect for him and the things he did.  He was a wonderful instructor!  However, many of my contemporaries, now that he is gone, do not see things the way he did, and isolate themselves from new ideas.  

It's all about the trainnig methods!  It doesn't matter what style you do!  It's how you train it that makes the difference!

~TT


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## MJS (Jul 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> 
> It's all about the trainnig methods!  It doesn't matter what style you do!  It's how you train it that makes the difference!
> 
> ~TT [/B]



I couldnt agree more with this!  I know that I have probably come across, especially in the Kenpo forums as being totally down on the art!  I'm not, and if it did come across that way, please accept my appologies!  Like TT and OFK, I myself, can only speak for my own exp. and training.  However, TT is right, there are ALOT of diehard Kenposits in here, and they dont want to hear anything negative about Kenpo.  The only point that I was trying to make, was that, in my own training, I felt like I needed to add things to it, to make it work better for me.  Does everybody have to do that?NO!  People are free to do whatever they want.  I have said before, that there is something to be learned from EVERY art.  Its the student and how they train that makes the difference!

MJS


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## cfr (Jul 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I did Kenpo since I was 12 -- 30 years ago.  Also did some Shotokan, some Aikijujitsu, and some Escrima.  Realized I've been waisting my time doing too much Kata and talking too much about "principles" and "the right way to do a technique" and not enough time actually doing it.  Now doing BJJ exclusively.
> *






> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *MartialArtist:
> 
> Chris and I have been trying to tell this to the hardcore Kenpo people for a while now.  Standard responses seem to revolve around the concept of "my Kenpo is so effective that my opponent will be anhialated before they ever touch me" and "Kenpo includes effective ground techniques" and "Kenpo is an all inclusive art containing every possible principle, concept, or training method anyone would ever need to know to defend themselves".  A couple of people have found our arguments interesting and are doing some research, but most have just ignored us. *




I for one find them quite interesting. My MA experience is VERY limited so obviously my opinions can be debated. Its just really interesting to see someone of your rank be as open minded as you appear to be. I like training aggressively. Hit, kick, elbow, and knee bags. Not the air. Kata make me want to kill myself. Thanks for your honesty.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 16, 2003)

cfr,

Good times, my man.  I come from the opposite perspective originally:  I trained since I was a kid.  I loved the bullsh*t drills, the kata, the illusion that I was getting closer to being Kwai Chang Kane or the Ninja turtles.  

Now I have a ton of experience in a bunch of different styles, a degree in philosophy, and an understanding that most Martial artists are training back asswards.  And I was one too!  

Well, now BJJ and Matt Thornton have gotten me back on track.  And best of all, they have done it at a time when maybe I can share my enlightenment with a few other TMAers who are wise enough.  

Who wants to spar and drill with aliveness?????  

best,

~TT

PS - mmmmmm trailmix....


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## cfr (Jul 17, 2003)

I just checked out your schools web site. Looks pretty cool. If I ever move to CT. I'll be there.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 17, 2003)

Rock on, my man.  If you're in North Cali, you should head up to the SBG affiliates and see what they're up to.  If you're in South Cali, head over to Roy Harris' school in San Diego.  And if you live in Central Cali, then I'm sorry.  Why would anyone live in Central Cali?  

All the best,

~TT


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## A.R.K. (Jul 26, 2003)

Began way back when in a traditional Chinese striking discipline with no grappling/ground fighting and no real locks to speak of.  Then I was introduced to Chin Na and really took a liking to it.  I use more Chin Na on duty than anything else.  

However the real exposure came during my E.P. days and into my career in Corrections.  As an agency D.T. instructor I have really been blessed to train with some really fine folks that S.E.P.S.I. brings in.  That really opened up the field to improve, combine, replace etc.

:asian:


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