# Kukkiwon ITF or WTF



## Indie12 (Oct 7, 2011)

Just a question, cause I'm drawing a blank and can't remember:

The Kukkiwon is that strictly WTF (World Tae Kwon Do Federation) or does it include ITF (International Tae Kwon Do Federation) or is ITF still a different TKD organization with their own ranking requirements?
Is WTF still Kukkiwon?


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 7, 2011)

ITF has NOTHING to do with the KKW.
WTF has never, ever been KKW. (Read On Before You Misinterpret Me)
WTF is the Standard of the Organisation which Administrates Competitions. For which you require a KKW Belt by KKW Standards with a KKW Certificate.
 KKW is the Standard of the Martial Art. 
WTF is the Organisation that runs Competitions. Some People ignore the KKW Part, and just call it WTF TKD.
I suppose in a way, the KKW and WTF are closely related.
Totally different things though.
One might say, you can learn ITF Taekwon-Do, and KKW WTF Tae Kwon Do.
The ITF has its own Governing Bodies.
Because there are Multiple ITFs for some reason.
The ITF has never been a Part of the KKW.
The WTF operates "for" the KKW.

Also, the ITF spells it, Taekwon-Do.
The KKW WTF spells it, Tae Kwon Do.
It can also be spelt Taekwondo.
Or Tae Kwon-Do.
And I think theres another variation.
It depends on the Root of the Particular Organisation.


----------



## Indie12 (Oct 7, 2011)

That's what I thought and knew, but I was having a brain fart!! 

Thanks!!


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 7, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> That's what I thought and knew, but I was having a brain fart!!
> 
> Thanks!!


Understandable.
Its all a bit confusing at first. (KKW =/= WTF =/= ITF =/= GTF =/= Independents) = TKD (TKD = Taekwondo =/= Taekwon-Do =/= Tae Kwon Do =/= Tae Kwon-Do) in some form or another.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Also, the ITF spells it, Taekwon-Do.
> The KKW WTF spells it, Tae Kwon Do.
> It can also be spelt Taekwondo.



I agreed with your post up to this point.  The Kukkiwon and WTF always romanise TKD as Taekwondo.  

Independents (non-ITF, non-KKW) often spell it Tae Kwon Do, but the KKW and WTF are consistent.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I agreed with your post up to this point.  The Kukkiwon and WTF always romanise TKD as Taekwondo.
> 
> Independents (non-ITF, non-KKW) often spell it Tae Kwon Do, but the KKW and WTF are consistent.



Not ALL Independents, though.
Or, Non ITF and Non KKW, since Independent seems to be a rather broad term, when some of these Independents can be rather large Organisations.
EDIT: To clarify, this is approving of your adding non-itf non-kkw addendum. Since it relates Independent to just being Independent of those two, rather than implying small.

Thats irrelevant though; Moving ahead-

If the KKW and WTF always set it as Taekwondo, why do alot of the folks here, even the Forums Martial Arts Interested/Studied Spell it Tae Kwon Do?
Or Tae-Kwon-Do for this Forum Branch itself.
It references TKD being in the Olympics, so its obviously referring to the KKW Form.
Im not contradicting you. But its curious.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Not ALL Independents, though.
> Or, Non ITF and Non KKW, since Independent seems to be a rather broad term, when some of these Independents can be rather large Organisations.
> EDIT: To clarify, this is approving of your adding non-itf non-kkw addendum. Since it relates Independent to just being Independent of those two, rather than implying small.




Agreed.



Cyriacus said:


> If the KKW and WTF always set it as Taekwondo, why do alot of the folks here, even the Forums Martial Arts Interested/Studied Spell it Tae Kwon Do?
> Or Tae-Kwon-Do for this Forum Branch itself.
> It references TKD being in the Olympics, so its obviously referring to the KKW Form.
> Im not contradicting you. But its curious.



I would say the reason this forum branch is Tae Kwon Do is to be inclusive.  As Tae Kwon Do is not specific to the ITF or WTF spelling, it's the most neutral/inclusive.  That said, I'm guessing

Also, I'd say that a lot of people aren't as concerned about how it's romanised.  I personally am, I am a Kukki-Taekwondo supporter through and through so I like to stay as accurate as I can to the Kukkiwon style of Taekwondo (including their choice of spelling).

The same as some people spell Poomsae as Poomse, the Kukkiwon consistently spells it -sae although it used to be -se (they are two different Korean characters).


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> If the KKW and WTF always set it as Taekwondo, why do alot of the folks here, even the Forums Martial Arts Interested/Studied Spell it Tae Kwon Do?
> Or Tae-Kwon-Do for this Forum Branch itself.



Here in the US, Tae Kwon Do was how it was written for a long, long time.    Both Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo are more recent developments.

Evidence:  See the published titles of these TKD books.  The last is interesting because the author (whom I studied briefly with) was a KKW 9th dan and the publisher is Nanam Publishing House, a Korean publisher. 

Korean Karate:  The Art of Tae Kwon Do by GM Duk Sung Son, copyright 1968.

Tae Kwon Do Secrets of Korean Karate by GM Sihak Henry Cho, copyright 1968.

The Kuk Ki Won's Tae Kwon Do by Dr. Daeshik Kim, copyright 1994.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 7, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Here in the US, Tae Kwon Do was how it was written for a long, long time.    Both Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo are more recent developments.
> 
> Evidence:  See the published titles of these TKD books.  The last is interesting because the author (whom I studied briefly with) was a KKW 9th dan and the publisher is Nanam Publishing House, a Korean publisher.
> 
> ...



Im not too sure about the specifics of that, but it isnt something worth debating - Im sure thats accurate to some extent, but I also have a Book old enough to have crummy Black and White Pictures, written by a Student of one of the Founders, Spelling it Taekwon-Do.

Now, the main reason im not persuing that reasoning, is that it doesnt have a Date on it that I can find. Anywere.
If I find a Date on it, ill resurrect this Topic.

For now though...




andyjeffries said:


> [/SIZE]
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> ...



Ive never even heard it called Poomsae until I came onto these Forums.
Ive always just heard them called Patterns.


----------



## SahBumNimRush (Oct 7, 2011)

I was told that the change from Tae Kwon Do to Taekwondo had to deal with the term becoming so ubiquitous that it had became its own word, rather than 3 words.  Much as Kara Te is spelled as one word; Karate.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Here in the US, Tae Kwon Do was how it was written for a long, long time.    Both Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo are more recent developments.
> 
> Evidence:  See the published titles of these TKD books.  The last is interesting because the author (whom I studied briefly with) was a KKW 9th dan and the publisher is Nanam Publishing House, a Korean publisher.
> 
> ...



Here's a book published by the WTF in 1975 that romanises it as they still do - Taekwondo Poomse.  I can quite agree that in the early days they may have romanised it as three words, but it's been standardised (for WTF/KKW) for decades now - I wouldn't consider it a "recent" development.  I don't necessarily state by the way that it's been standardised since 1975, the WTF seems to have changed the romanisation over the years for (for example) World Championship posters depending on the host country, but they have been consistent in their usage in their logo for example (as has the Kukkiwon).


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Im not too sure about the specifics of that, but it isnt something worth debating - Im sure thats accurate to some extent, but I also have a Book old enough to have crummy Black and White Pictures, written by a Student of one of the Founders, Spelling it Taekwon-Do.



I hope I don't come across as pedantic, but what I said isn't a matter of opinion and thus not up to debate.  Some of the first TKD instructors in the States were the likes of Sihak Henry Cho and Duk Sung Son and Jhoon Rhee.  They wrote the name as "Tae Kwon Do" and so the people who descend from them in lineage use Tae Kwon Do instead of Taekwon-Do or Taekwondo.  Given the time frame when these men emigrated, I believe it it's a factual statement to say that Tae Kwon Do was the first way it was written popularly, again in the US.  I don't have an opinion about Australia or other parts of the world.


----------



## dancingalone (Oct 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> - I wouldn't consider it a "recent" development.



Recent in the sense of how it has spread in the US.  I'm not talking about WTF or ITF standardization.  I do however stand by my statement that "Tae Kwon Do" is how the martial art was Romanized in the US during its first days.


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 7, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Recent in the sense of how it has spread in the US.  I'm not talking about WTF or ITF standardization.  I do however stand by my statement that "Tae Kwon Do" is how the martial art was Romanized in the US during its first days.



Ahh OK, I'm not American so I tend to think on a global basis rather than how it is on your little island ;-)


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 7, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Ahh OK, I'm not American so I tend to think on a global basis rather than how it is on your little island ;-)



...Same here, pretty much


----------



## Indie12 (Oct 7, 2011)

I also think it depends on where your located...


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 7, 2011)

Indie12 said:


> I also think it depends on where your located...


Well, see, im not even thinking Location.

Im thinking Origin. When the Art was Founded by its Individual Founders.


----------



## tkd1964 (Oct 8, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Here in the US, Tae Kwon Do was how it was written for a long, long time.    Both Taekwon-Do and Taekwondo are more recent developments.
> 
> Evidence:  See the published titles of these TKD books.  The last is interesting because the author (whom I studied briefly with) was a KKW 9th dan and the publisher is Nanam Publishing House, a Korean publisher.
> 
> ...



The ITF has always spelled it Taekwon-Do. The 1965 publication Taekwon-Do by gen. Choi Hong Hi spelled it Taekwon-Do. Gen. Choi did this to show the  two aspects of Taekwon-Do, the physical and mental.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 8, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> The ITF has always spelled it Taekwon-Do. The 1965 publication Taekwon-Do by gen. Choi Hong Hi spelled it Taekwon-Do. Gen. Choi did this to show the  two aspects of Taekwon-Do, the physical and mental.


...And it Reads correctly that way.

Since the TaeKwon is the Feet and Fists (Or Fists and Feet... Dammit im having a Brain Fart now ), and Do is the Way, or Art of. As such, it reads more correctly in Korean to be;
Do-KwonTae. Or Do-Kwon Tae even.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 11, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Ive never even heard it called Poomsae until I came onto these Forums.
> Ive always just heard them called Patterns.


Are you ITF?  If so then a reason why you may have heard patterns is because 'Tul' translates, roughly, to pattern.  Like a cookie cutter type effect.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 11, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> ...And it Reads correctly that way.
> 
> Since the TaeKwon is the Feet and Fists (Or Fists and Feet... Dammit im having a Brain Fart now ), and Do is the Way, or Art of. As such, it reads more correctly in Korean to be;
> Do-KwonTae. Or Do-Kwon Tae even.


That may be incorrect.  The writing in hangul and even in hanji, makes it one word.  There are no hyphens used no should there be. The hyphen was used by Gen Choi, now when he started using it would be the question.  I do not recall the spelling every being with a hyphen until Gen Choi broke off from the other pioneers with the ITF.

Besides if we were to seperate 'do' from the other words, then we would also have Kum-do, Hapki-do, Hwarang-do, etc.  They are all one word.  If anything it would be 'tae kwon do'.


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 11, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> That may be incorrect.  The writing in hangul and even in hanji, makes it one word.  There are no hyphens used no should there be. The hyphen was used by Gen Choi, now when he started using it would be the question.  I do not recall the spelling every being with a hyphen until Gen Choi broke off from the other pioneers with the ITF.
> 
> Besides if we were to seperate 'do' from the other words, then we would also have Kum-do, Hapki-do, Hwarang-do, etc.  They are all one word.  If anything it would be 'tae kwon do'.



Interesting point.


----------



## puunui (Oct 11, 2011)

tkd1964 said:


> The ITF has always spelled it Taekwon-Do. The 1965 publication Taekwon-Do by gen. Choi Hong Hi spelled it Taekwon-Do. Gen. Choi did this to show the  two aspects of Taekwon-Do, the physical and mental.




It was written "Taekwon-do" in General Choi's first english book because many of the books and magazines published in the mid 60's hyphenated "Karate-do", so they copied that. Given the fact that General Choi was not fluent in english, he probably didn't know what the english translation said or how it was handled, just like you would have no idea what a korean translation of your post said.


----------



## 540kicker (Oct 14, 2011)

I thought KKW spelt it Taekwondo as one whole word.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 17, 2011)

540kicker said:


> I thought KKW spelt it Taekwondo as one whole word.


They do.  ITF separates it into two words Taekwon-do.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 17, 2011)

A hyphen is used between the parts of a compound word (which is a single word composed of two, or more, other words). To say that Taekwon-Do is two words is incorrect. The hyphen just emphasizes the two aspects of the martial art.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 17, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> A hyphen is used between the parts of a compound word (which is a single word composed of two, or more, other words). To say that Taekwon-Do is two words is incorrect. The hyphen just emphasizes the two aspects of the martial art.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Yes, saying it was two words was incorrect, like hyphenating it in the first place is incorrect.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 17, 2011)

Since Taekwon-Do is simply a transliteration of the hangul used it's not incorrect at all to use a hyphen. 

Pax,

Chris


----------



## puunui (Oct 17, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> A hyphen is used between the parts of a compound word (which is a single word composed of two, or more, other words). To say that Taekwon-Do is two words is incorrect. The hyphen just emphasizes the two aspects of the martial art.



What two aspects?


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 17, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, saying it was two words was incorrect, like hyphenating it in the first place is incorrect.



This is subject to Translation.

For example; Dan Gun. Tan Gun.
Do San.
To San.

Theyre BOTH Correct. Its just a matter of how its read back from the Korean form of Writing, and when you source your Transliteration from.



chrispillertkd said:


> Since Taekwon-Do is simply a transliteration of the hangul used it's not incorrect at all to use a hyphen.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


----------



## andyjeffries (Oct 18, 2011)

miguksaram said:
			
		

> Yes, saying it was two words was incorrect, like hyphenating it in the first place is incorrect.





Cyriacus said:


> This is subject to Translation.
> 
> For example; Dan Gun. Tan Gun.
> Do San.
> ...



In your example they are.  But adding a hyphen in is not, nor is adding spaces.  Taekwondo in Korean is one word, a noun.  It's spelt in Hangul as one word - &#53468;&#44428;&#46020; - not as three nor with a hyphen.  I can understand it being written as Taekwondo, Taegwondo or even T'aekwondo depending on your romanisation choice (as per your examples above).  But to put hyphens or spaces in is wrong, it's not an accepted romanisation method - the ones I'm aware of are Revised, Yale and McCune-Reischer - none of which say you should use hyphens in this way.  To be fair Revised does have some hyphenation rules which on a first read may make you feel correct, including separating the administration unit (which also happens to be a 'do' character) but not for this purpose.

Take an English example - football.  There are two dinstinct parts to this compound word, each has it's own concept - Foot and Ball.  But when you write them together you aren't talking about a ball shaped like a foot, you are talking about Football the sport.  It's the same with Taekwondo.  Yes, each syllable has it's own meaning but when used together to describe the sport/art we all do then it's a single compound word noun and shouldn't be split up in any way.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 18, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> This is subject to Translation.
> 
> For example; Dan Gun. Tan Gun.
> Do San.
> ...


Actually the use of a hyphen in Taekwondo would not be correct.  Let's look into the rules of hyphenating and you will see that Taekwondo does not fall into any of them.  First and foremost we have to understand that hypens are strictly a western thing to help us understand the full Korean word.  There are certain rules that go along with actual hyphening of the word.  

First it was used to help separate the stem from the ending when a possible sound change is  reflected in a stem's last and an ending's first consonant letter (e.g. _pur-i_ vs. _pul-i_). 

A hyphen has also been used to help distinguish syllables in certain words as well (example:  ga-eul (fall/autumn) vs. gae-ul (stream).  

There is separation of the term 'do' when referring to some place names like Jeollabuk-do.  

Finally it is used in proper names like Lee, Won-kuk.

As it was already mentioned that Gen. Choi may have been basing his spelling off of Karate-do and words of the like.  Overall it would still be a wrong western translation of the word.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 18, 2011)

As an English transliteration of a compound word, however, it works fine.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## Cyriacus (Oct 18, 2011)

You know what? You can all work that one out. I can find Information for, and against, the Transliteration of the word to include a Hyphen. So bleh.


----------



## miguksaram (Oct 19, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> As an English transliteration of a compound word, however, it works fine.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


That's what I'm getting at.  It is not a compound word.  If that were the case then would it not be tae-kwon-do?  It is written and is meant be translated as one word.  For the record this is not my KKW slant on the debate, this is coming from several Koreans that I know who have no TKD connection whatsoever.


----------



## chrispillertkd (Oct 19, 2011)

It sure is.

Pax,

Chris


----------



## puunui (Oct 19, 2011)

miguksaram said:


> That's what I'm getting at.  It is not a compound word.  If that were the case then would it not be tae-kwon-do?  It is written and is meant be translated as one word.  For the record this is not my KKW slant on the debate, this is coming from several Koreans that I know who have no TKD connection whatsoever.




Many people feel compelled to justify their position, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. I am more like you, I am interested in discovering and discussing the truth. I want an accurate clear picture, not a distorted one.


----------

