# I really enjoyed this Wing Chun teacher



## TaiChiTJ (Oct 29, 2018)

Pretty clear explanation of Internal concepts


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## ShortBridge (Oct 30, 2018)

Very interesting.


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## Buka (Oct 30, 2018)

God, I so love Martial Arts.

This, or any other post, thread, whatever, I don't care what's being said or shown, I love hearing opinions, views, experiences, thoughts, experiences, concepts, videos, questions, yada yada. 

What a great learning experience this place has always been for me.

The Arts rock. They just do.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 30, 2018)

Ah awesome, I'll have to watch the vid, thanks for posting.





Buka said:


> God, I so love Martial Arts.
> 
> This, or any other post, thread, whatever, I don't care what's being said or shown, I love hearing opinions, views, experiences, thoughts, experiences, concepts, videos, questions, yada yada.
> 
> ...


I love your passion and love for MA which really shines through mate! Feel very fortunate to have discussed and learned everything that I have with guys like yourself


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## geezer (Oct 30, 2018)

I'm eager to see how others respond to this. 

IMO I would agree that the best WC/WT/VT is very  relaxed.  I've always seen the TST lineage as leaning the most towards an"internal" perspective. I found this video helpful in understanding their perspective. However, as a student, I personally do not respond as well to what I feel is bordering on "magical thinking". 

I also tended in that direction when I first started TCMA back in the mid 70s. Remember "Quai Chang Caine" walking on rice paper?  But as I have aged, perhaps I've just become too skeptical? Taken too far, I fear that  "magical thinking" can lead you off into the land of "Yellow Bamboo".  I want to _know _that my kung fu works against a _non-compliant _opponent.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 30, 2018)

I find it interesting, I'd love a chance to touch hands with him and if I did, then I'd have a basis for knowing how I actually feel about it. 

I do struggle with teaching/relaying "relaxation" to my students. In part, I think it's because it's not really what we say it is. It's not really softness, it's not really relaxation, it's something that I don't have perfect vocabulary for. My hands and structure have softness qualities with (hopefully) some nasty hardness hidden within and vica versa. My SiFu much more so. I'm not sure how I learned it and I'm not quite sure how to pass it along, maybe it happens in it's own in time.

I have thought a lot about this and some of the things he said in that video resonated with me. It actually reminded me A LOT of Alexander Technique, which I spent a bit of time with some years back and it really helped me with an injury that I was struggling with. Reading about AT is NOTHING like experiencing it and my skepticism was put to bay with it. What I know for a fact is that we as a species tend to stiffen and contort and work against ourselves in ways that often prevent us from doing what we want to some times and can even cause weird overuse injuries. 

I think about other sporting activities and I see that accomplished players all do what they do with a relaxed softness that beginners and hacks don't have. Think moguls skiing, ball handling in basketball, swimming, hitting a perfect golf shot, playing an instrument really well, etc. I don't think it's mystical, I just think that maybe sometimes we try to describe and/or teach it in ways that make it sound that way. Good grapplers, in my experience, have terrific relaxation qualities, which make them heavy and hard to deal with, while conserving their energy. I've never heard NCAA wrestlers or BJJ players described as mystical.

Geezer, with your experience, I know that you can feel it in other people. It's really just a question of what kind of thinking and practice we think is productive to wrap around it.


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## Martial D (Oct 30, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I've never heard NCAA wrestlers or BJJ players described as mystical.



BJJ does seem a little mystical at first. The first time I rolled with a BB it literally seemed like he had magic powers.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 30, 2018)

I think that's pretty much true with any good martial artist or a really good jazz drummer for that matter. It's mechanical and came from putting a lot of work in, but it seems impossible when you're sitting there watching (or feeling) it. If you watch them carefully though, they're at ease, in their zone.


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## wckf92 (Oct 30, 2018)

Martial D said:


> BJJ does seem a little mystical at first. The first time I rolled with a BB it literally seemed like he had magic powers.



Amen to that sh1t...I rolled with Royce once... Haha, it did not end well for me!


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## _Simon_ (Oct 30, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I find it interesting, I'd love a chance to touch hands with him and if I did, then I'd have a basis for knowing how I actually feel about it.
> 
> I do struggle with teaching/relaying "relaxation" to my students. In part, I think it's because it's not really what we say it is. It's not really softness, it's not really relaxation, it's something that I don't have perfect vocabulary for. My hands and structure have softness qualities with (hopefully) some nasty hardness hidden within and vica versa. My SiFu much more so. I'm not sure how I learned it and I'm not quite sure how to pass it along, maybe it happens in it's own in time.
> 
> ...



Thanks ShortBridge, got alot out of your post, well said.

[QUOTE/]I'm not sure how I learned it and I'm not quite sure how to pass it along, maybe it happens in it's own in time.[/QUOTE]

This makes total sense to me... I often see instructors who have such seemless flow and ease, have such natural movement, yet can generate dramatic power, and some of their students just don't have that yet, and some do. It feels like it's something you can only guide your students towards realising and feeling, but it's something that happens within them in their own pace.

I've never heard about Alexander Technique, just looked it up, looks amazing... there's a practitioner near me actually, might check it out. Have had Bowen Therapy done, but AT looks to be teaching you how to apply that natural relaxed movement rather than just restoring muscle relaxation, would that be right? Would you recommend it for martial artists (I think I would benefit, alot of tension issues.. )?


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## wckf92 (Oct 30, 2018)

Watched the video.
Interesting to a point I suppose. Some of it could boil down to semantics.Some of it are parlor tricks.
Some of it could just be Sifu worship.
For context to pliable minds...I'd just like to point out that this dudes testimony may or may not have value...it ALL depends on this dudes skill level. Maybe he sucked when he ran into the CST student(?) 
Food for thought...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2018)

geezer said:


> I've just become too skeptical?


When people talk about "internal" concept, I always like to ask, "How do you use your internal concept to deal with a certain problem such as a 3D spiral force vector?"







IMO, it's easy to talk about "internal" this and "internal" that. But the more that you dig into how to use internal concept to solve a particular problem, you will find out that both "internal" solution and external solution are the same.

When your opponent's arm touch on your arm, his arm moves like a snake along your arm, the concept of "do nothing and relax" won't be able to prevent your opponent's hand to reach to your shoulder.

If you don't want to use force to against force, your arm has to move in circular motion to un-twist your opponent's 3D spiral. So "do nothing and relax" are just not enough.

Counters to a technique is like a key to open a lock. There is no master key that can open all locks.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 31, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> ...
> 
> I've never heard about Alexander Technique, just looked it up, looks amazing... there's a practitioner near me actually, might check it out. Have had Bowen Therapy done, but AT looks to be teaching you how to apply that natural relaxed movement rather than just restoring muscle relaxation, would that be right? Would you recommend it for martial artists (I think I would benefit, alot of tension issues.. )?



I definitely recommend it. It would be good for me to revisit it, actually. If there is an instructor near you, it's worth an initial visit to check it out.


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## wckf92 (Oct 31, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you don't want to use force to against force, your arm has to move in circular motion to un-twist your opponent's 3D spiral. So "do nothing and relax" are just not enough.



Agree on the part you wrote about "just do nothing and relax" isn't enough. However, on the part above...I disagree somewhat. 

Again, this term / phrase "don't use force on force" is bandied about the WC community as some sort of heresy... And again, I will always point out that: ( IMHO of course )  haha
1) it does not say to not use force  
and
2) the amount of force is relative to the practitioner. 
and
3) degrees of angles also do their part in mitigating force on force; not only circles.


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## Parky (Oct 31, 2018)

John is one of my teachers. I've worked with Marty Anderson as well, who John mentioned in his video. They are both quite powerful. What they do are not parlor tricks. What they do is essentially Jin, Ging, Peng Jin, whatever you want to call it. The CST lineage does a lot of testing of the form movements against resistance to help develop this trained skill. I'm a CST follower, but do not necessarily buy into the 'internal' marketing. WC has Jin, Ging, whatever in it, just like lots of other external MA. Cheers.


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## geezer (Oct 31, 2018)

Parky said:


> ... I'm a CST follower, but do not necessarily buy into the *'internal' marketing*.



Yeah. This is what I was talking about. Some folks really go for the "internal" mindset. Personally, I have not found it helpful.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 31, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> ... "don't use force on force" is bandied about the WC community as some sort of heresy ...



I'm totally fine using force on force. I've not been told that before. It's just not the only thing.

I just get the irony of screaming RELAX!!! at students, while someone is trying to hit them. A few different ways to approach that problem would be helpful, I think.


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## Robert Agar-Hutton (Nov 3, 2018)

Why? That's the question I ask myself - Why am I learning a martial art - both the Tai Chi I teach and the Karate that I learn (yes I am a student of Karate), stress relaxation. That makes complete sense from a health perspective, but, what about fighting? Well the nearest I get is sparring and in my experience I get better results in terms of techniques that work and the length of time I can spar for when I am relaxed. If I am tense, I get exhausted more quickly and my techniques can get 'clunky'.

So, the question is, will more relaxation lead to even better outcomes - I like others am suspicious - the problem is that relaxing is darn hard work and I have a day job and I am lazy and I have years and years of using muscles and strength and techniques to achieve outcomes. And I am a woo skeptic and so much of extreme relaxation seems like fairy dust (non-existent and illusory) - I guess the nice thing is that I do have the time to pursue the 'woo' a little bit as I am now semi-retired - and I don't think that practising relaxing can be detrimental....  Will I develop AWESOME special skills, time will tell   

But it was an interesting video!!!


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## ShortBridge (Nov 3, 2018)

Relaxation will definitely produce a better result. No question about it, no woo factor required.


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## yak sao (Nov 4, 2018)

I'm LT lineage, which is softer than most other YM lineages, but we still don't classify what we do as internal.
My si-fu is Chinese and a direct student of LT and one of his favorite sayings is "just enough".
Our bodies will not move without using muscle.
We can't do our forms or chi sau or anything else without using muscle.
What we can do is to learn to perfect our movements so we are not using brute strength, or involving unnecessary muscles in a movement.
Take a tan sau as an example. The arm will not raise without some involvement from the deltoid, or bend without some involvement from the biceps. But most of the focus should be on the triceps, lats, Serratus anterior, etc, or what we commonly refer to in wing Chun as elbow force. So the muscles we don't want to use, while still involved, are relaxed, relative to the muscles we want to use.
 But even If we are using the proper muscles we don't want to try to use brute force, we want to conserve energy and use just enough to get the job done .
 Another of my teacher's favorite sayings is the goal of the WT man is to get better and better at using less and less.


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## Cephalopod (Nov 6, 2018)

I actually really liked the OP's video. A rarity for me as I grow older and more crotchety.
The bit about when you push in this relaxed state, you're using your whole body as one...cool visualization.


geezer said:


> Taken too far, I fear that  "magical thinking" can lead you off into the land of "Yellow Bamboo".


I had to look that up... I just kept thinking about Frank Zappa and his huskies. The reality was even less palatable. Thanks for making me even more crotchety, Geezer....

In truth I don't think John was treading into those rancid waters. We all know that muscle engagement is complex concept for beginners and if using terms like "internal" and "forward gravity" helps him get these ideas across, more power to him. Of course, there will always be the occasional student who gets a little too enamored by that seductive 'chi' idea and then it's up to John to make sure he comes back to Earth.

As to whether his relaxed state will hold up to a genuine onslaught of power, I'll hold my tongue until I feel his hands myself. But I'll assume that his 'relaxed' is not the same as limp and his structure can absorb deflect and bypass power to the side.



ShortBridge said:


> I think about other sporting activities and I see that accomplished players all do what they do with a relaxed softness that beginners and hacks don't have. Think moguls skiing, ball handling in basketball, swimming, hitting a perfect golf shot, playing an instrument really well, etc. I don't think it's mystical, I just think that maybe sometimes we try to describe and/or teach it in ways that make it sound that way. Good grapplers, in my experience, have terrific relaxation qualities, which make them heavy and hard to deal with, while conserving their energy. I've never heard NCAA wrestlers or BJJ players described as mystical.



Very well said!
And all these athletes manage to get to the peak of their form without ever learning to channel chi, but just by training well and hard.
Not that I'm opposed to the concept of chi, I just think it's something for experienced masters to discuss between themselves; those who understand that what they are feeling on the inside is a consequence of dedicated training not some mystical quality that can be marketed to unsuspecting minds.

Crotchety out!


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 8, 2018)

yak sao said:


> What we can do is to learn to perfect our movements so we are not using brute strength, or involving unnecessary muscles in a movement.
> Take a tan sau as an example. The arm will not raise without some involvement from the deltoid, or bend without some involvement from the biceps. But most of the focus should be on the triceps, lats, Serratus anterior, etc, or what we commonly refer to in wing Chun as elbow force. So the muscles we don't want to use, while still involved, are relaxed, relative to the muscles we want to use.
> But even If we are using the proper muscles we don't want to try to use brute force, we want to conserve energy and use just enough to get the job done .
> Another of my teacher's favorite sayings is the goal of the WT man is to get better and better at using less and less


IMO, this should be the goal of any martial artist, regardless of style.


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## PiedmontChun (Nov 26, 2018)

My si-bak (who had trained under one of LT's students and occasionally under LT) used to tell me "We work so hard to move so little". I interpreted that as acknowledgement that it takes a *lot* of effort over time to develop quick efficient movement, wasting no energy, but that is the end goal.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 27, 2018)

yak sao said:


> we commonly refer to in wing Chun as elbow force.


What's the difference between "elbow force" and "whole body unification force"? Can you generate maximum force by using arm (elbow) only?


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 27, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the difference between "elbow force" and "whole body unification force"? Can you generate maximum force by using arm (elbow) only?


I think the term “elbow power” is a bit of a misnomer. Based on my (limited) WT experience, I’d say the primary driver of “elbow power” is actually the muscles of the back, not the triceps or deltoid. The power in WT/WC punches comes from the back (“elbow power”) and from advancing footwork which puts the body weight behind the structure of the punch. I won’t say they’re as powerful as good boxing punches, but properly done they’re not just arm punches.


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## Buka (Nov 27, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think the term “elbow power” is a bit of a misnomer. Based on my (limited) WT experience, I’d say the primary driver of “elbow power” is actually the muscles of the back, not the triceps or deltoid. The power in WT/WC punches comes from the back (“elbow power”) and from advancing footwork which puts the body weight behind the structure of the punch. I won’t say they’re as powerful as good boxing punches, but properly done they’re not just arm punches.



I couldn't agree more. There's a lot of different ways to punch, and if done properly, they ALL hurt, they can all damage.

It's why I believe people should explore every avenue of training available to them. If your buddy does a different style and you happen to work together, spend less time going back and forth with "we do it this way, ya, but we do it THIS way" and spend more time picking your buddy's brain and have him show you everything he does, everything he has learned. He'll be thrilled to do so anyway, people love to show their friends what they've learned in the Arts. Take full advantage.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 27, 2018)

Buka said:


> "we do it this way, ya, but we do it THIS way"


All power come from bottom and up, back and front. The more that you can rotate your body, the more power that you can generate.

When I see the "horse stance middle punch" (which is similar to the WC punch), I always like to ask the following questions:

- Is that the maximum amount of power that you can generate?
- How much power that come from your leg?
- Why do you train power generation without moving your feet?
- Why do you train power generation without rotating your body?
- Why don't you line up your leading arm, body, back shoulder as a straight line?
- ...






How about this power generation with forward step and body rotation? Is it just style difference, or is it because one style know how to use the whole body but the other style doesn't?


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## Jens (Dec 1, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> What's the difference between "elbow force" and "whole body unification force"? Can you generate maximum force by using arm (elbow) only?



"Elbow force" is "whole body unification force"! When I apply elbow force, it automatically engages my whole body structural linkage to the ground including that of my hips and legs.


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## vince1 (Dec 3, 2018)

I have been hit by Tai Chi striking as well as Tae Kwon Do and Karate practioners/strikes. By far the most impact I felt was from a Tai Chi practioner.


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