# Firearms and Ninjutsu



## Cryozombie (Mar 1, 2006)

I know that in the Bujinkan we practice techniques "against" firearms, how many of you have training WITH them in your curriculums?  Drawing, positioning, firing... and if you do, are they based off of traditional teachings, or were they modern "add ons"

*Im talking strictly "Ninjutsu" styles... Buj, Genbukan, Toshindo... etc...*


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## Dale Seago (Mar 2, 2006)

I do, though it's not mandatory training for those in the dojo who have no interest in firearms. . .and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement and security personnel, it shouldn't be surprising that there are some who aren't interested in them. The methods are essentially _henka_, adaptations of things done with traditional weapons.


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## rutherford (Mar 2, 2006)

Training against and with firearms is part of our curriculum.  I haven't been exposed to any of it, so I can't comment on the source.


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## Kreth (Mar 2, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement and security personnel...


Nothing like a police state...


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## Bigshadow (Mar 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I know that in the Bujinkan we practice techniques "against" firearms, how many of you have training WITH them in your curriculums?  Drawing, positioning, firing... and if you do, are they based off of traditional teachings, or were they modern "add ons"
> 
> *Im talking strictly "Ninjutsu" styles... Buj, Genbukan, Toshindo... etc...*


We have worked a little weapons retention using a handgun, but nothing I would call firearms specific training.  I have been discussing with the instructor a field day at the range for those who are interested where we can go over safety and use, then be able to go back to class and work more on it with a practice firearm.


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## Zoran (Mar 2, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> ...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement and security personnel...



That should read:

_...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement, security personnel, and *criminals*..._

Since criminals don't abide by laws.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 3, 2006)

Zoran said:
			
		

> That should read:
> 
> _...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement, security personnel, and *criminals*..._
> 
> Since criminals don't abide by laws.




*sigh*

Can't argue with you there. . .


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## mrhnau (Mar 3, 2006)

Zoran said:
			
		

> That should read:
> 
> _...and here in San Francisco, which recently banned the ownership of handguns for all residents but law enforcement, security personnel, and *criminals*..._
> 
> Since criminals don't abide by laws.



here is the catch. if you own one, you are by definition a criminal, since you are breaking the law.

of course, I assume you are refering to those that will use it to bad effects and are criminals before owning a gun, and not your average gun-loving american.

how on earth did that pass? isn't that a blatant violation of 2nd amendment rights? is it the entire town? I can understand certain sections of private property or government facilities, but your private house? Sounds like one for the court system if I ever heard of one...


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## Zoran (Mar 3, 2006)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> how on earth did that pass? isn't that a blatant violation of 2nd amendment rights? is it the entire town? I can understand certain sections of private property or government facilities, but your private house? Sounds like one for the court system if I ever heard of one...



Actually, I don't think they are the first or going to be the last. Chicago has some sort of ban on handguns also. Since I don't live in the city, I am not sure exactly what it is. From what I recall, it's the same as San Fran.

I did hear of a town in the US that created a law that it's illegal NOT to own a gun. I think they were trying to make a statement.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 3, 2006)

Zoran said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't think they are the first or going to be the last. Chicago has some sort of ban on handguns also. Since I don't live in the city, I am not sure exactly what it is. From what I recall, it's the same as San Fran.
> 
> I did hear of a town in the US that created a law that it's illegal NOT to own a gun. I think they were trying to make a statement.



Legend has it, it was in Texas?  But I cannot confirm that.


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## Don Roley (Mar 3, 2006)

Well, Hatsumi does a lot of things with a pistol at training. So it is hardly something from outside the Bujinkan.

There are things that are just extensions of what we do with other tools, and then there are things that come from the knife and pistol fighting book. Yes, I know that basically is just stuff that are variations of the san shin and ways of throwing shuriken. But it is laid out in specific methods and so I feel it should be treated differently than the variation stuff.

One thing I should mention, I do not reccomend that people try to learn from the book. I have worked with some Japanese shihan with the stuff and between their experiences and mine, we seem to have done ok. I have seen others try to do it and I can see the flaws they can't see.


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## bydand (Mar 3, 2006)

The town was Kennesaw, Georgia back in 1982 in response to Morton Grove, IL. total ban on firearms.  

In training we did back late 90's in Maine we covered firearms a little.  Defense only and as a group we didn't go out to a range, but, many of us used to go out and shoot together for fun and friendly competition.  Haven't covered it much after that, I should bring it up and see if we could go over it again.

Scott G.


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## Don Roley (Mar 4, 2006)

I have to point out that a lot of folks do firearms, but take things from outside the tradition to fill their gaps. In fact, I think Dale has a comment made by a captive Japanese shihan about the matter.

I remember in the early days there was a lot of borrowing from IPSC and the like. It is actually one of the things that turned me off from training at that point. It wasn't until later, after Knife and Pistol Fighting was released that I actually got excited about firearms and the Bujinkan.

I wonder how many people still take things from competitive sports like that and try to fit it into their taijutsu training.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I wonder how many people still take things from competitive sports like that and try to fit it into their taijutsu training.



Probably almost EVERYONE who doesnt have this training availible to them...

Although, I should prolly point out that I mean from "other" firearms sources, and not competitive shooting.  I mean police and military tactics as well.

I know that when I have a firearm in my hand, I fall back to what I learned in the military, as well as things I learned from my father, and other sources, like Mr. Ayoob's training videos and the like... because even tho I am surrounded by firearms here in america, that knowlage isn't taught to us.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 4, 2006)

I've heard of an instance in the early 90's in which someone who was knowledgeable about guns pointed out some flaws in what Hatsumi was doing at the time, and the next day or so uncle H started teaching the new methods instead.
Personally, I haven't fired any real guns since my visit to Israel six years ago.


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## bshovan (Mar 5, 2006)

I have been fortunate to have been associated with instructors the past 30 years who were also quite competent in fire arm usage. In the early 70's I began studies with a Martial Arts Instructor who was also in charge of the SWAT training for an inner city police department. Another instructor was also, and still is involved in firearms competition ( combative shooting ). I have experienced three times being confronted in real life with a firearm, and have successfully difused each encounter. In a nutshell, how many Martial Artists have actually experienced real life encounters against empty handed and those with weapons at hand.
Many can talk about their training, roots and lineage but most have never experienced what it's like to realistically been in situations such as a gun to your body, a knife to your body, improvised weapons directed to your person, or in the middle of a F'd up situation. Remember, training in the martial arts also teaches one to try to avoid being in harmful situations but, sometimes one's occupation does present situations happening.
Talk the talk, but if you haven't walked the walk- contemplate this.


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## Don Roley (Mar 5, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Talk the talk, but if you haven't walked the walk- contemplate this.



Oh puh-leaze!!!! 

Who let Bruce Calkins back in the room?

FYI, there are at least five Bujinkan members who post here that can tell you the exact sound a rifle bullet makes as it breaks the sound barrier over your head.

People that 'walk the walk' rarely find the need to come into a conversation trying to talk the talk.

Google the term "Virtual Tough Guy" and then imagine how some of us look at the way you just have to tell us how much training and experience you have had. Especially since you list kenpo and not ninjutsu as your art.

The more people try to impress me, the less they do.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 5, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Remember, training in the martial arts also teaches one to try to avoid being in harmful situations but, sometimes one's occupation does present situations happening.
> Talk the talk, but if you haven't walked the walk- contemplate this.



I wont speak for anyone else here, Bshovan, but *I* survived having a loaded Llama .380 pointed at my head, and the fight that resulted from it.  And yes, I can back those claims up, police reports were filed, after they arrested the guy durring a standoff.

Having been thru it, my handling of the situation impresses me no more or less than training does. Its just something that happened, and you move on and keep training.


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## Dale Seago (Mar 6, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I wont speak for anyone else here, Bshovan, but *I* survived having a loaded Llama .308 pointed at my head. . .


 
Pretty sure you mean a .380, as I don't think Llama have ever done anything in rifle calibers.


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## Bigshadow (Mar 6, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Pretty sure you mean a .380, as I don't think Llama have ever done anything in rifle calibers.


  I saw that too... I didn't think they made rifles or specialized big game hand guns.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 6, 2006)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Pretty sure you mean a .380, as I don't think Llama have ever done anything in rifle calibers.


 
Yes, you are correct.  I have .308 on the brain as I just obtained one.

LOL.  

Thanks!


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## Dale Seago (Mar 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yes, you are correct.  I have .308 on the brain as I just obtained one.



Springfield Armory, p'r'aps?


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## Don Roley (Mar 8, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I've heard of an instance in the early 90's in which someone who was knowledgeable about guns pointed out some flaws in what Hatsumi was doing at the time, and the next day or so uncle H started teaching the new methods instead.



I have trouble with stories like this since there is so much distorition going on wtih them. We still are trying to convince people that Hatsumi was not made a national treasure by the emporer of Japan.

But there does seem to be a ring of truth to the above. Hatsumi has never been one to insist that he is infallible. He does listen to people who have been in combat and know more than him in certain subjects.

I can say that the techniques that are called the san shin uchi resemble the battle tested methods of Rex Applegate. I doubt they are connected, but things that work tend to have common elements.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 8, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I have trouble with stories like this since there is so much distorition going on wtih them.


 
The person who said this saw it with his own eyes, and I have no reason to doubt the validity of his words.


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## jetboatdeath (Mar 15, 2006)

I think maybe it would be good just so people know what a gun going off sounds like. And that some Joe Smoe with a hand gun might not be as big of a threat as you would think.Alot of people have never heard a real gun go off.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 15, 2006)

Welcome JBD.


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## bshovan (Mar 16, 2006)

Took your advice and went to google-" virtual Tough Guy." Ouch, I totally see what you mean. Life's a learning experience and I just learned something so Domo Arigato.


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## Don Roley (Mar 16, 2006)

bshovan said:
			
		

> Took your advice and went to google-" virtual Tough Guy." Ouch, I totally see what you mean. Life's a learning experience and I just learned something so Domo Arigato.



And learning is what we are all about.

It takes a big man to admit they are not perfect. I hope you enjoy your experience here at martialtalk.


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## Shinkengata (Apr 14, 2006)

I do firearm training with an LEO friend of mine. I started out using isosoles, but found it to be not quite uncomfortable for me aside from accuracy practice, so i switched to a modified weaver with great maneuvering capability and good stability. I rack the slide with the palm of a shuto, in relation to taijutsu. It works and doesn't rely on the fine motor-function of using your thumb and forefinger knuckle to pull back the slide. Plus i can take the pistol and push it forward into aiming and firing position while chambering a round at the same time. The chambering shuto hand naturally stays near my neck similar to ichimonji, for quick one-handed firing.


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## Don Roley (Apr 15, 2006)

Interesting what you say about Weaver vs Isosoles. I have the opposite view on them. I use modified weaver for shooting around targets with either hand. But otherwise I tend to use something closer to Isosoles. I think of it as being like chudan or jodan no kamae from kenjutsu with feet a bit closer.


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## Shinkengata (Apr 15, 2006)

I'm not really against isosoles, but i just haven't been able to make it work for me on the range as well as the modified weaver that i use. My former(by distance) instructor heavily favors isosoles.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 15, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Interesting what you say about Weaver vs Isosoles. I have the opposite view on them. I use modified weaver for shooting around targets with either hand. But otherwise I tend to use something closer to Isosoles. I think of it as being like chudan or jodan no kamae from kenjutsu with feet a bit closer.



I am no expert, so take this info from the Novice point of view or the casual point of view. 

I was taught the Isosoles first and used it on the range with good learning. 

Then I played  with the Modified Weaver and was able to improve my groupings. 

The isosoles was a great place to understand the basics of shooting and be able to get a lot of the basics down. 

Plus I found with some of the outdoor ranges with the low overhangs and my height it is much easier to get a proper stance and position on the target with the modified.


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## Shinkengata (Apr 15, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I am no expert, so take this info from the Novice point of view or the casual point of view.
> 
> I was taught the Isosoles first and used it on the range with good learning.
> 
> ...



You're coming from basically the same place i am.


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## Don Roley (Apr 16, 2006)

Hmmmm, interesting.

I come from the attitude of having taijutsu habits and not breaking the principles I learned from Bujinkan. In Bujinkan, I try to keep my shoulders and hips pretty much facing the same direction. When the hips open up to the side, the shoulders do as well. 

It just seems easier for me to lock my upper body in place and use my hips to point than screw my shoulders to the side in Weaver and twist the upper body. Movement seems easier to me doing this.

Anyone else have any ideas on the matter? I would love to hear some discussion on the pros and cons of both.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 16, 2006)

For me I like to be able to move my feet effectively and the Isosoles just has less movement and is more rigid. The modified weaver stance provides for better movement and also the feel of it is the same when I am using a shotgun, rifle, etc. Plus it is the way I learned first a long, long, long time ago and it is very hard to change. Another issue is being able to change levels from standing to kneeling. Once again the Weaver has an advantage. Having said all of that I do regularly practice in the isosoles stance and have good groupings in it as well. Best bet is to find what works for you and then use it. In today's day and age if you are interested in self defense then you need to have a working knowledge of firearms and that is definately one thing that I like about the Bujinkan. There are a lot of knowledgeable instructors out there who understand this. One of them and there are alot of them is Bart Uguccioni of the Dexter Bujinkan Dojo. He is a former Marine Recon and also has trained extensively with Jeff Cooper. Another who I have not met but seems very knowledgeable is Dale Seagle. Do not forget Phil Legare as he is definatley one of the Bujinkan's best. We are a very lucky group because of the diversity and size of the Bujinkan. There are so many good teachers!  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 16, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Hmmmm, interesting.
> 
> I come from the attitude of having taijutsu habits and not breaking the principles I learned from Bujinkan. In Bujinkan, I try to keep my shoulders and hips pretty much facing the same direction. When the hips open up to the side, the shoulders do as well.
> 
> ...




Don, this is very insightful. In Balintawak we train to at first always face the the cane. Meaning your hips and shoulders are facing it and parallel to the incoming strike. Later the student places a lead foot forward and then learns to adjust with just their upper body. i.e. your shoulders learn to adjust and face the weapon. Then later you learn how to decrease the teligrapghing by not changing the shoulders and or hips. Yet still properly striking with the hips through it all. 

The guy who is working with me, has said my performace is good for the amount I am learning, and he credits it to my martial arts (* He also trains in both art I do, plus he has done lots of other stuff since the mid 60's on *). I go out and shot a couple of rounds and then try to think about what I did and what was right and what can be improved. I try different things and then decide on one little thing and move forward, always trying to improve. 

So, our training else where would effect how we approach a situation, and how we feel is more natural then others.

Thank you for sharing that point.


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## Shinkengata (Apr 16, 2006)

Don i actually practice going into an ichimonji stance and firing one-handed like i talked about. It works well for squeezing off a few rounds as you drop back into ichimonji before rolling behind cover.

Weaver foot placement is similar to Jumonji, and Isosoles is similar to Hira.


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> Weaver foot placement is similar to Jumonji, and Isosoles is similar to Hira.



Not the way I do Jumonji/ Isosoles. In both, one foot is back a bit from the lead foot, but not extremely. Not as much as ichimonji. The hips and shoulders are on line and are more facing dead on the target than facing away. Hira is with the feet on a line and wide. And I think of the footwork of Weaver (at least as I do it) as being that of Tenchijin no kamae for sword or bo.


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## monkey (May 24, 2006)

some of the fire arms I was tought off the Koga clan were mortor type & can be made with hollow bamboo or pop cans.I Do sugguest a long or timed fuse to get out of the way.Time to time  these were known to explode  & not so much fire.That made it good for eart minds.Now we can use a cigar for time fuse or cigarate for shorter.We also had cane guns that shot 1 round-some muscett type & some modified for 22. cal.We also had that which looked like a baton & 2 types stem from this 1- it shot a bag full of led to knock out & not couse great damage or death 2-shot a net to entrap.The silent star gun was probly the best we had for koga as it released the shrinkens as fast as you could re load & had a 35lb.spring.Koga  reguards to what mst say came from Koga Korea.The Hwarangdo -- SulSaDo--KookSul--Honamu ect. ctem from the koga.So if some one says Koga (it should be 100% korea based)


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## Kreth (May 24, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> some of the fire arms I was tought off the Koga clan were mortor type & can be made with hollow bamboo or pop cans.I Do sugguest a long or timed fuse to get out of the way.Time to time these were known to explode & not so much fire.That made it good for eart minds.Now we can use a cigar for time fuse or cigarate for shorter.We also had cane guns that shot 1 round-some muscett type & some modified for 22. cal.We also had that which looked like a baton & 2 types stem from this 1- it shot a bag full of led to knock out & not couse great damage or death 2-shot a net to entrap.The silent star gun was probly the best we had for koga as it released the shrinkens as fast as you could re load & had a 35lb.spring.Koga reguards to what mst say came from Koga Korea.The Hwarangdo -- SulSaDo--KookSul--Honamu ect. ctem from the koga.So if some one says Koga (it should be 100% korea based)


Um.... no. I've bit my tongue (errrrr, fingers?) while you posted in the Arnis forums, but you are not passing that off as fact here. There is no existing Koga tradition, mmm'kay?


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> some of the fire arms I was tought off the Koga clan were mortor type & can be made with hollow bamboo or pop cans.I Do sugguest a long or timed fuse to get out of the way.


Impressive!  What did you use for propellant?  Hair spray? 



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> Time to time  these were known to explode  & not so much fire.That made it good for eart minds.Now we can use a cigar for time fuse or cigarate for shorter.


How do you figure out when to use the cigar versus the cigarette?  Any suggestion of the size of cigar?  A good cuban Torpedo will take at least 40 minutes to smoke, 40 minutes seems like a LOOONG time to get out of the way.  In fact that seems like long enough for the target to move.  There must be a koga secret to this...  Do tell?



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> We also had cane guns that shot 1 round-some muscett type & some modified for 22. cal.


Was this a traditional weapon or modernized for today's warfare?



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> We also had that which looked like a baton & 2 types stem from this 1- it shot a bag full of led to knock out & not couse great damage or death 2-shot a net to entrap.


How much lead was in the bag?   Was the baton usable as a baton, or was it just for looks?  What kind of net did you put in the baton, something like a cargo net, or a hair net?



			
				monkey said:
			
		

> The silent star gun was probly the best we had for koga as it released the shrinkens as fast as you could re load & had a 35lb.spring.


Hey, how did you get that 35lb spring to be silent?  Was this a traditional weapon or one of those modified weapons for modern combat?  What was the purpose of this silent star gun?  Is it lethal?  

Inquiring minds want to know....


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> The silent star gun was probly the best we had for koga as it released the shrinkens as fast as you could re load & had a 35lb.spring.



Kreth said that there was no Koga tradition, and based on the above I can tell that you were not fooled by a fraud- but are just a little boy looking for some attention. I had to smirk when I read your description of the weapon, and I know you will now come up with a lot of excuses as to why you can't show proof of it.

Just joined this month and already over a hundred posts. Yeah, you're a troll.


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## Rich Parsons (May 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Kreth said that there was no Koga tradition, and based on the above I can tell that you were not fooled by a fraud- but are just a little boy looking for some attention. I had to smirk when I read your description of the weapon, and I know you will now come up with a lot of excuses as to why you can't show proof of it.
> 
> Just joined this month and already over a hundred posts. Yeah, you're a troll.



Don and Kreth SHHHHH, The rest of the members may not already know this.


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Don and Kreth SHHHHH, The rest of the members may not already know this.



Seriously, every so often we get someone new to the arts that does not know that the Koga ryu died out. If you have been here for a while, you should know that. But we get new members every week and we are trying to attract more. Sometimes we have to repeat the message and keep the trolls too scared to try to take over.

And left alone, they do take over.


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## heretic888 (May 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Seriously, every so often we get someone new to the arts that does not know that the Koga ryu died out.


 
He also apparently doesn't know that the Korean "sulsa" (along with the Chinese "lin kuei") are completely made up.


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## Dale Seago (May 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Not the way I do Jumonji/ Isosoles. In both, one foot is back a bit from the lead foot, but not extremely. Not as much as ichimonji. The hips and shoulders are on line and are more facing dead on the target than facing away. Hira is with the feet on a line and wide. And I think of the footwork of Weaver (at least as I do it) as being that of Tenchijin no kamae for sword or bo.



I'm with Don on this one. 

For my part -- others' mileage may vary, no biggie if it does -- If I'm stationary and just putting rounds through paper to score points, I tend to do better with a modified Weaver. When things are very "active", though, as in the kind of shooting I do for executive protection work, isosceles works better for me in terms of less acquisition time between multiple targets. 

A corollary to that, regarding having hips & shoulders more toward the target, is that in an AOP (Attack On Principal) situation a protective agent may be the principal's only cover until the bad guys can be put down. Ideally (doctrinally) you want a protective detail consisting of several agents (who can cover and evacuate the principal while an agent engages the threat); but in the real world -- outside the military and the highest-level corporate movers & shakers -- this often doesn't happen because the people needing protection are trying to cut costs.


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## Cyber Ninja (May 24, 2006)

Techno,

You should try to get yourself a copy of Hatsumi Sensei's Knife and Pistol book. Excellent work.


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## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2006)

I just got finished watching a DVD by Dean Rostohar entitled Gun CQB Seminar.

The whole thing (aside from the packaging) is in Croatian. But you can tell for the most part what is being taught.

It is an interesting look at firearms. Those of you know that know of Dean know that he speaks from experience in both taijutsu and in real firearms combat.

A lot of what he shows seems to come from Kelly McMann and given a taijutsu tweak. I would maybe change a few things to make it more taijutsu oriented, but maybe he is aiming this at people outside the Bujinkan with less time to train than we do before they get thrown into the fray.

I would give the web page listed on the DVD, but seems to be down.

All in all, I would say that this is the best training tape on the use of the firearm by someone trying to follow the Takamatsu tradition. Maybe there is room for improvement, but it is far better than things I have seen from certain paper mountains.

I have another one by him (actually he gave both to Nagase who can't watch  either) that I can't seem to view. Maybe it has something to do with the fact that it is listed as a S-VCD whatever the heck that means.


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## Carol (Jun 9, 2006)

S-VCD is a soft way of playing DVD video from a CD-Rom

How to play an S-VCD
http://www.videohelp.com/play.htm#svcd

Header Change trick that gets some S-VCD video to play.
http://www.vcdeasy.org/modules.php?name=_Guides&id=VcdTrick#vcdtrick


Hope that helps :asian:


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## Don Roley (Jun 9, 2006)

Well, thanks to Carol I was able to see the second item Dean gave to Nagase and I can't reccomend it. I don't even know if it is for sale anymore. It is just a lot of drills that he does, none of which are unknown to me. Nothing really instructional in terms of carrying over the skills we build in taijutsu into use of a firearm. Just a lot of drills with him hitting targets under various conditions.

The DVD is much better and _that_ I can reccomend.


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