# Taking the Martial out of the Art.....



## tsdmdk

I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again.  I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled.  I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.

After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive.  But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts.  Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session.  Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return.  Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students.  That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.

When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while.  Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone.  It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times.  As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood".  The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports.  And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention.  And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!

The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA.  They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people.  I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse.  I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.

Any thoughts?


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## ETinCYQX

tsdmdk said:


> I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again.  I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled.  I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.
> 
> After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive.  But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts.  Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session.  Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return.  Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students.  That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.
> 
> When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while.  Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone.  It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times.  As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood".  The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports.  And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention.  And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!
> 
> The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA.  They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people.  I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse.  I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I think you're generalizing way too much, and as a school owner I personally resent being referred to as a "thug with lousy technique" because I choose to compete in martial arts. You'll need to rethink that to get along well in martial arts as a whole.

Believe it or not, the quality of your martial arts instruction has absolutely nothing to do with the floor on which you train.

That said, welcome to the boards.


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## Cyriacus

tsdmdk said:


> I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again.  I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled.  I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.
> 
> *Now youre making me want to hop onto our Hard-Wood Training Floor *
> 
> After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive.  But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts.  Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session.  Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return. _ Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students._  That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.
> 
> *Mm... In this Town, there are Five TKD Dojangs. Only Two of them have more than 15 Students. One of them is the one I Train in.
> Whats interesting, is that we are also the Two that take things almost too Seriously.*
> 
> When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while.  Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone.  It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times.  As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood".  The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports.  And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention.  And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!
> 
> *Martial Arts arent meant to be Fun - Theyre meant to be Enjoyed. Which can be Fun. Im not sure if thats what you were saying, but if it was, then Yes *
> 
> The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA.  They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people.  I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse.  I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.
> 
> *Albeit, these things arent Trees. One changing doesnt change the whole System. It just means an Individual has Displaced the Meaning of the Art.*
> 
> Any thoughts?



My thought would be that youre generalising, a bit 
Also, Lousy Technique is seperable from Speed and Power. Lets not think Technique is everything now.
I could talk more about this, but the Above Respondant has already done that.
But needless to say, if its Lousy Technique and Competitive Brawling, why not Spar them, just to show them how much better the other Option is?
By which I mean, see what I mean about Speed and Power firsthand.

In any case, now to Supporting your Statements.
The problem is, the lack of Enforced Standards in some places.
Where I Train, for example, the Dojang is part of an Organisation which is a Branch of the ITF. As such, both Enforce Standards upon each other.
With the KKW/WTF Form; The KKW Sets the Standards, and the Dojangs have to keep them.
Individual Halls (In ANY MA) can either be Equal, Better than, or Worse than, an Organisation run Hall.

As such, the Problem is, that not having that Enforced Standard can lead to Negative Alterations. And its a Slippery Slope.


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## Tez3

tsdmdk said:


> I have not trained in twenty years, started in college, made red belt then just recently started training again. I trained privately here and there, so I am not that disabled. I am a traditional TSD practioner, and so remember training with no gear on a concrete floor.
> 
> After visiting a few schools I found my way back to a traditional TSD school that I initially thought was too expensive. But seriously, after visiting those other schools I noticed they had a very watered down version of the martial arts. Mainly they removed all the seriousness/discipline, lots of high fives, and played music (disco at times) for the whole session. Much of this I thought was marketing, emphasizing the exercise/aerobic quality, and making it fun so people would return. Too difficult, which is what martial arts training is, and you would be hard pressed to find students. That reminds me of the original episode of "Kung Fu" and David Carridine's young character whole waited in the rain for an opportunity to train with the Shaolin.
> 
> When I made it back to the TSD school the instructor and I talked for a while. Obviously liability and insurance dictated a soft floor, and padding on everyone. It seems like being black belt is everything and so some schools pretty much will give you black belt if you just show up enough times. As a friend said, "Getting a black belt is easy -- just remember a few forms, spar, and every once in a while break some wood". The martial arts always had its grounding in being martial, except now it is trying to compete with baseball, football, soccer, as sports. And, sadly it cant compete since those attract more of crowd and more attention. And, they are easier for kids and more fun to boot!!!
> 
> *The martial piece got moved to the thugs that participate in competitive brawling, like the MMA. They have lousy technique and are basically large, violent people.* I dont expect MA to stay the same, nothing stays the same, but must it evolve, or degrade into something worse. I think it is often like music, it sometimes has to get bad before it will get better again.
> 
> Any thoughts?[/QUOTE
> 
> Really? so why is this small middle aged woman doing MMA? Martial artists are doing MMA, they come from all styles and often do MMA in conjunction with their base art. Please don't disrespect martial artists you don't know based on perceptions you have of MMA gathered from goodness knows where. Oh and I do TSD as well, having previously trained in Wado Ryu karate.


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## NSRTKD

I respect what you're saying... you just returned to formal training, and things have changed, and it's hard not to feel like earning rank was more difficult when you earned it before, and that they hand out black belts for a lot less earned work.

It's because Martial Arts is treated as a sport rather than the example you gave from "Kung Fu", and has a considerable market in the sport world, and calling it a sport brings many new students. It helps the teachers and parents understand that it's a part of a physical fitness endeavor for kids and adults alike. Many parents view martial arts as a "barbaric" practice until it's introduced to them in a lighter, more sport-like manner. It helps the parents see that their children will *not *just get beat up or learn to beat people up in martial arts, and that even the children with very little prowess in physical activities can excell at it. It brings in students and parents and helps relations with the general public, who unfortunately, sometimes see martial arts as exactly what you said: The large, violent brawlers of UFC.

That all being said, dig deeper for a MORE traditional school for yourself if the school you have selected doesn't suit your desires. The really traditional schools DO exist, if you go to enough of them and look for smaller clubs. You're right that most will not train on concrete because of insurance and liability reasons, but you can find schools that insist upon standing in perfect rank, that don't allow outbursts of high-fives until class is over, that play no music during class and that perfect technique before allowing a new rank. These schools are out there, but because of the reasons above, they are hard to find: It's not easy to market martial arts as anything but a sport, and there aren't enough adults interested in the more difficult training so it has to be geared towards kids, and towards pleasing their parents.

Everybody wants something different out of martial arts. You might find great pleasure in attending a school with less strict discipline and MODELING traditional behavior for the less experienced students, and might find the instructors very pleased that you're willing to do so.


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## Bill Mattocks

Interesting.  From my point of view, martial arts has changed in the other direction.  From what I have been told, the teaching used to quite regularly result in students being seriously injured and requiring medical attention.  Discipline exceeded that given to military recruits in boot camp for minor infractions, and competitions were brutal slug-fests.

While our dojo is not all sexed up with music and dancing (we are a traditional Okinawan karate type dojo), we do calisthenics to warm up (sometimes to music, but rarely), we wear protective gear when we spar, we try not to hurt each other (we hit hard, but we learn control, most of us have to go to work in the morning), and competitions for those who choose to participate are generally light touch sparring with protective gear and plenty of judges to ensure no one is seriously injured.  But we still learn solid principles and self-defense techniques that are solid, powerful, and fast.  Rank progression is not guaranteed, and since I've been studying for three years now and still have (at best guess) another two years minimum to go to my first degree black belt, I would not say that it's a given.  Our dojo celebrates 30 years under our sensei this month.

Perhaps you need to find another training center or another style entirely?  There's generally something for everyone out there.  Find one that fits your requirements!


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## SahBumNimRush

I'm not sure that I can add much to what the others above have already  posted.  Taking into consideration your 20 year hiatus, the difference  you may see in the general training hall can be quite significant.  I  practice Moo Duk Kwan Taekwondo, and even our traditional association  has changed over time to fit societal needs.  Our KJN used to say a good  BB is always hurt, and it was common place 20 years ago to see atleast  half of the students nursing some sort of injury.  Needless to say that  hurts student retention because people have to get up to go to work the  next day, as Bill pointed out.  The days of the instructor correcting  your stance by kicking your leg or striking it with a stick are now long  gone in our association.  While I have fond memories of that training, I  doubt more than a handful at my dojang would endure such treatment  now.  

It took me 7 years to earn my BB, and I still uphold that my students must *earn *their  rank, they don't just get it when they've put in their time.  Basically  what I'm getting at, is that while there are many training halls out  there that are "fly by night mcdojangs," there are still schools that  instill the same essence of the traditional arts (i.e. self-defense,  self-discipline, self-respect, etc.).   

As Tez pointed out, you  may want to empty your proverbial cup a bit in respect to martial arts  you have little exposure and no experience in while reading and posting  here on MT.  What you see on TV is a small subset of MMA, just as the  ISKA "karate" you see on ESPN cannot be used to define Karate Do.  

I hope you find a dojang that gives you what you are looking for.


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## Steve

Even though the OP is a blatant troll, these kinds of posts are interesting to me because it highlights different peoples' opinions and perceptions. 

Welcome to the boards.  I hope you hang around and contribute to the forums in a positive way.


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## tsdmdk

I dont understand all the hostility. I merely did some driving around, talked to some people, sat and watched some trainings at various schools. I was not impressed with the instruction or the approach with many of the schools. (From the city where I work, I pass no less than four schools on my way home. Two are very close to me.) That's want I was commenting on. I would fire the same criticism at an online school offering PhD instruction. Where there is a demand there will be phonies and not acknowledging that exists is just plain folly. Schools are all under pressure to bring in students, without students you have no income and you cease to exist. How exactly do you balance that in todays world? You have to pay the light bill. 

I dont want to waste my money or my time. I decided to spend more money ($120 a month) on a place that offered a more traditional approach, rather than a disco/exercise type instruction. I also was not interested in MMA, or just kicking a bag and be fooled into thinking I was really learning something. (BTW I've had a 80lb bag in my basement for years.)

This just came to mind. About ten years ago, right after Christmas, I signed up for a Kung Fu class (still have the uniform). I had some extra money and it was a introductory, three months, offer. I was a good student but then at the end of the three months I was put under extreme pressure to sign a contract for a year. It created a lot of tension between the instructor and me, as at the end of each training he would try to talk me into signing up. Simply, I did not have the money. Presently all the schools are gone, and I learned the head instructor is in jail for stealing. Many of the contracts were not honored as the schools often closed, and moved some where else to more fertile grounds.


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## NSRTKD

I didn't intend hostility, simply intended to point out that a school with a different approach from what you remember as traditional doesn't equal a "phony"...


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## Steve

Hostility?  I think this might explain things a little.  I thought your first post was answered in a surprisingly nice way.  Why would you be confused?  

Your first post managed to be insulting to just about everyone here in one way or another, and you were expecting people to agree?  As I said, I hope you just didn't come across the way you intended.  Written language is a funny thing and your tone in writing may be very different than what you intend to communicate.  It's understandable, and as I said before, I hope you stick around and contribute to the forums in a positive way.  But you asked for thoughts, so I'll try to provide a few specifics.

Regarding your first post, you equate seriousness with discipline.  You then presume that both of these can't exist in a school where music is played.  We play music all the time at my school, during warm-ups and when we're sparring at the end of class.  We're also serious, and I believe anyone who's tried BJJ would tell you that, music or not, it's difficult.  

You touch on some points regarding kids and training that I agree with, but I'm not sure I completely agree with the conclusions you're drawing.  I have a real issue with the way that many martial arts schools teach kids, implying competence that they don't have.  The benefit that baseball, football, soccer, the chess team, dance lessons, and music lessons (to name a few) have over most martial arts schools is that at the end of a year in any one of these activities, the kid will be able to do those things.  And their improvement can be marked over time.  After 5 years, a child can be pretty damned good at baseball, football, soccer, chess, dancing or playing a musical instrument.  After 5 years of "self defense", they may actually be worse at defending themselves than had they not taken any lessons at all.   Fun is a testament to the coach and the parent than to the activity at hand, but I believe that anything that isn't work should be enjoyable, and where kids are involved "fun" has to be a big part of the activity.  

There are a lot of very serious martial artists who train and compete in MMA.  It takes both seriousness and discipline to do what they do.  They're also, as a group, some very genuine, very nice guys.  You are either completely ignorant regarding MMA or you are intentionally stirring the pot.  If the latter, you're just trolling the boards, which is stupid and tiresome.  If you're simply ignorant, you can easily learn by stopping into a good gym and giving it a shot.  You'll certainly hit the bags.  You might hear some music.  You'll also learn technique, guaranteed.  But I'd recommend leaving that chip on your shoulder at home.  Going into any school with an attitude will likely lead to a negative experience.  We've had douchebags around before, and like the thugs, they either figure it out and relax or leave.


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## Cyriacus

naomisarah said:


> I didn't intend hostility, simply intended to point out that a school with a different approach from what you remember as traditional doesn't equal a "phony"...


Furthermore, the OP Exagerrates the effect. It really isnt this wide-spread.
Free Advice: Always Re-Read everything, and make sure its clear. And if it is, then its the Other Persons Interpritation you can question, rather than your own Statement.
And you were not Hostile.

Partial/Full Disagreement on an Aspect =/= Hostility.


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## kbarrett

The "martial" is still out there you only need to find the right Dojang and the rigth instructor, who still believes in the old "martial" ways and their out there.

Sincerely
Ken Barrett


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## Kaygee

I have witnessed what the original poster has claimed! Before I found the TSD school that I attend, I went and watched classes at a lot of very bad schools. I think my research took me to 18 different schools.

I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain.

I went to one TKD school, and the "8th dan" that went to sign me up, was eager to get me into his "black belt program", which basically means that I pay a certain amount of money, and in two years, I get my black belt. So he sends me downstairs to see a class that his wife is teaching. I go downstairs and not a word is being spoken. The woman instructor notices that she has guests, and grunts to her students and one of them come up. She performs some weird take down and then nods at everyone. Every single student had no idea what to do after that. Then she broke out the bags and had her students run up in a single file line and kick the bags. You could tell none of them were used to this drill. 

I had enough so I went back upstairs, at which time I saw the "8th dan" teaching a Zumba class.

I went to a popular chain of an MMA/BJJ school. They were learning their thing, they had a huge student base, but the place was a gym, not a dojo or dojang and it was filled with testosterone. At the end of the class, the students ran over to the instructor and he opened up a locker........it looked like a bunch of starving people running up to a truck filled with rice....you know, the ones you see on TV where they start throwing out the bags of food at the people? Anyway, he wasn't handing out food, he was handing out belts and stripes.

After his class, the instructor took some time to talk to me. I asked him if there were any forms in the art that he teaches. He laughed at me and went into a basic front stance with a low block and said, "I can teach you to stand like this, if you want, but it isn't going to help you win a fight". I told him that I wasn't looking to win a fight, I was looking to learn an art. He laughed again and said "I'll teach you the forms if you really want me to."

That one made me the most angry. There is nothing worse than an instructor that has no respect for other styles of martial arts. I don't care if you think your style is the best, that is fine.....but do not go mocking other styles, that just shows that you have no discipline and, frankly, no class. All I could think about afterwards was all of his poor students that are being put out into the world, with nothing more than the knowledge of how to hurt another human being........

Most of the other schools were extremely "gimmicky", for the lack of a better word. Most of the schools were mostly just created for kids (which is fine, it is great to see children study a martial art, it helps in so many ways) but I wanted to find one with a good adult base.

I found an excellent Tae Kwon Do school, headed by an 8th dan grandmaster. He was well into his 80s and was one of the nicest guys that I have ever met. I met a lot of good adults there as well. However, I quickly discovered that, although beautiful and spectacular, the incredible kicks that are performed in TKD just weren't for me.......I wanted something more "practical". Also, being that the grandmaster was so old, he never taught class, so his black belts did.......his younger black belts, that seemed to have a serious attitude when it came to teaching new students. There is nothing worse than trying to learn something and knowing in the back of your mind, that the student teaching you has no interest in teaching you....in fact, they weren't hiding it at all! Another thing was, all of the students, no matter the rank, were doing the same thing.....there was no difference in rank, everyone marched back and forth and did the same hand techniques and the same kicks. The only thing that was different, were the forms.

The school was very traditional though, and I enjoyed my month there. I needed something else though.

When I walked into the school I now attend, I saw that there were two masters that were teaching the class. They had their floor completely sectioned off.....you could tell who were the beginners and who were the experts. They were all doing hand techniques, but different ones, according to rank. I really liked what I saw, when it came to discipline and presence on the floor from the masters. The last word out of your mouth better be "sir" or your arms better be ready for some pushups.

I will try to describe the way my school is in the best way that I can, although I am sure I will do it no justice.
Just about two months ago, I was sparring a "well known contact offender". If you don't know what I mean by that, I will explain. This is usually the description a student gets when they constantly make hard contact with other students in the dojang and hurt them. No one gets angry afterwards or holds a grudge, but they are just labeled that way and the other students are more cautious when they spar them. Anyway, while sparring this student, (he was a 1st gup, me a 3rd) he kicked me hard in the stomach with a side kick. Ok, I can deal with that....I should have blocked it, and I didn't...lesson learned....but I did fall down to one knee. When I was down though, the guy came up and tried to kick me.. Luckily my side block negated his front kick. When I got back up, I had had enough. He came in with another front kick, I stepped to my right into a low block with my left hand, and then I fired a yuk soo do into the side of his helmet with my right hand (and I stepped into that yuk soo do) Down he went!

I noticed one of my masters started walking towards me......he didn't stop, but when he walked by me he said to me, "watch your control"....my response (because I was so amped up) was, "Sir, he was hitting me hard", at which time my master turned around at me and yelled "FIFTY PUSHUPS NOW!!" Down I went and when I stood back up, that was the end of the sparring for the night.

After class, I saw my master in the changing room and I apologized to him. He asked me what I was apologizing for, I told him that I was sorry for hitting my fellow student so hard. He looked at me and smiled and said, "I didn't punish you for hitting your fellow student, I punished you for your reaction to my instruction when I told you to watch your control." 

That is the only way I can truly describe the way that my school teaches Tang Soo Do. It is understood that is an art, but the martial part is definitely still there.

As I stated when I started this rant though, I see what the original poster has witnessed in today's dojos and dojangs. I know it isn't that way everywhere, because when I go to tournaments, I can see the discipline in the students from my sister schools......so it IS out there.....you just have to find it!


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## Tony Dismukes

Kaygee said:


> I went to a popular chain of an MMA/BJJ school. They were learning their thing, they had a huge student base, but the place was a gym, not a dojo or dojang and it was filled with testosterone. At the end of the class, the students ran over to the instructor and he opened up a locker........it looked like a bunch of starving people running up to a truck filled with rice....you know, the ones you see on TV where they start throwing out the bags of food at the people? Anyway, he wasn't handing out food, he was handing out belts and stripes.
> 
> After his class, the instructor took some time to talk to me. I asked him if there were any forms in the art that he teaches. He laughed at me and went into a basic front stance with a low block and said, "I can teach you to stand like this, if you want, but it isn't going to help you win a fight". I told him that I wasn't looking to win a fight, I was looking to learn an art. He laughed again and said "I'll teach you the forms if you really want me to."



Just to give you some perspective on the BJJ/MMA scene:

The bit about the belts/stripes is unusual. Promotions in BJJ are infrequent (typically 2-3 years between belts). MMA doesn't even have belt rankings. I've never seen students lined up around a locker for their new belts - typically the instructor will want to make a presentation to each individual student in front of the whole class.

There are no forms/kata in BJJ or MMA. This doesn't make BJJ any less of an art form. I don't know why the instructor would say that he could teach you "the forms" unless he originally came from some other art that did include kata.

High levels of testosterone are common, but not universal, in BJJ schools. The "gym" as opposed to "traditional dojo" vibe is pretty typical as well. This does not imply that discipline is lacking. There are more kinds of discipline than pseudo-military requirements for shouting "sir!" and doing pushups.

It does sound like you found the style of training environment that you find satisfying, so congratulations on that.


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## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> I have witnessed what the original poster has claimed! Before I found the TSD school that I attend, I went and watched classes at a lot of very bad schools. I think my research took me to 18 different schools.
> 
> I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain.
> 
> I went to one TKD school, and the "8th dan" that went to sign me up, was eager to get me into his "black belt program", which basically means that I pay a certain amount of money, and in two years, I get my black belt. So he sends me downstairs to see a class that his wife is teaching. I go downstairs and not a word is being spoken. The woman instructor notices that she has guests, and grunts to her students and one of them come up. She performs some weird take down and then nods at everyone. Every single student had no idea what to do after that. Then she broke out the bags and had her students run up in a single file line and kick the bags. You could tell none of them were used to this drill.
> 
> I had enough so I went back upstairs, at which time I saw the "8th dan" teaching a Zumba class.
> 
> I went to a popular chain of an MMA/BJJ school. They were learning their thing, they had a huge student base, but the place was a gym, not a dojo or dojang and it was filled with testosterone. At the end of the class, the students ran over to the instructor and he opened up a locker........it looked like a bunch of starving people running up to a truck filled with rice....you know, the ones you see on TV where they start throwing out the bags of food at the people? Anyway, he wasn't handing out food, he was handing out belts and stripes.
> 
> After his class, the instructor took some time to talk to me. I asked him if there were any forms in the art that he teaches. He laughed at me and went into a basic front stance with a low block and said, "I can teach you to stand like this, if you want, but it isn't going to help you win a fight". I told him that I wasn't looking to win a fight, I was looking to learn an art. He laughed again and said "I'll teach you the forms if you really want me to."
> 
> That one made me the most angry. There is nothing worse than an instructor that has no respect for other styles of martial arts. I don't care if you think your style is the best, that is fine.....but do not go mocking other styles, that just shows that you have no discipline and, frankly, no class. All I could think about afterwards was all of his poor students that are being put out into the world, with nothing more than the knowledge of how to hurt another human being........
> 
> Most of the other schools were extremely "gimmicky", for the lack of a better word. Most of the schools were mostly just created for kids (which is fine, it is great to see children study a martial art, it helps in so many ways) but I wanted to find one with a good adult base.
> 
> I found an excellent Tae Kwon Do school, headed by an 8th dan grandmaster. He was well into his 80s and was one of the nicest guys that I have ever met. I met a lot of good adults there as well. However, I quickly discovered that, although beautiful and spectacular, the incredible kicks that are performed in TKD just weren't for me.......I wanted something more "practical". Also, being that the grandmaster was so old, he never taught class, so his black belts did.......his younger black belts, that seemed to have a serious attitude when it came to teaching new students. There is nothing worse than trying to learn something and knowing in the back of your mind, that the student teaching you has no interest in teaching you....in fact, they weren't hiding it at all! Another thing was, all of the students, no matter the rank, were doing the same thing.....there was no difference in rank, everyone marched back and forth and did the same hand techniques and the same kicks. The only thing that was different, were the forms.
> 
> The school was very traditional though, and I enjoyed my month there. I needed something else though.
> 
> When I walked into the school I now attend, I saw that there were two masters that were teaching the class. They had their floor completely sectioned off.....you could tell who were the beginners and who were the experts. They were all doing hand techniques, but different ones, according to rank. I really liked what I saw, when it came to discipline and presence on the floor from the masters. The last word out of your mouth better be "sir" or your arms better be ready for some pushups.
> 
> I will try to describe the way my school is in the best way that I can, although I am sure I will do it no justice.
> Just about two months ago, I was sparring a "well known contact offender". If you don't know what I mean by that, I will explain. This is usually the description a student gets when they constantly make hard contact with other students in the dojang and hurt them. No one gets angry afterwards or holds a grudge, but they are just labeled that way and the other students are more cautious when they spar them. Anyway, while sparring this student, (he was a 1st gup, me a 3rd) he kicked me hard in the stomach with a side kick. Ok, I can deal with that....I should have blocked it, and I didn't...lesson learned....but I did fall down to one knee. When I was down though, the guy came up and tried to kick me.. Luckily my side block negated his front kick. When I got back up, I had had enough. He came in with another front kick, I stepped to my right into a low block with my left hand, and then I fired a yuk soo do into the side of his helmet with my right hand (and I stepped into that yuk soo do) Down he went!
> 
> I noticed one of my masters started walking towards me......he didn't stop, but when he walked by me he said to me, "watch your control"....my response (because I was so amped up) was, "Sir, he was hitting me hard", at which time my master turned around at me and yelled "FIFTY PUSHUPS NOW!!" Down I went and when I stood back up, that was the end of the sparring for the night.
> 
> After class, I saw my master in the changing room and I apologized to him. He asked me what I was apologizing for, I told him that I was sorry for hitting my fellow student so hard. He looked at me and smiled and said, "I didn't punish you for hitting your fellow student, I punished you for your reaction to my instruction when I told you to watch your control."
> 
> That is the only way I can truly describe the way that my school teaches Tang Soo Do. It is understood that is an art, but the martial part is definitely still there.
> 
> As I stated when I started this rant though, I see what the original poster has witnessed in today's dojos and dojangs. I know it isn't that way everywhere, because when I go to tournaments, I can see the discipline in the students from my sister schools......so it IS out there.....you just have to find it!




So you think a place that takes your money for a grading and doesn't tell you whether you have passed and where the 'headmaster' makes pseudo-mystical mutterings like 'when you get your black belt your kick will be very nice' is the ideal place to train? If you think it is why are you posting threads asking for our opinions what on school?

Do you think the quasi military atmosphere of 'give me 50 pushups' is the correct way to instill discpline in a civilian martial arts club? I don't and I'm an instructor in a military martial arts club. Your instructor is on an ego trip in my opinion.

You do know that martial arts are for more than just doing 'pretty' movements? The bottom line is fighting, it is being able to defend yourself against attackers, that's what it's for, if you chose to put 'art' into that, it's up to you but never forget why you learn to kick and punch.


----------



## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> So you think a place that takes your money for a grading and doesn't tell you whether you have passed and where the 'headmaster' makes pseudo-mystical mutterings like 'when you get your black belt your kick will be very nice' is the ideal place to train? If you think it is why are you posting threads asking for our opinions what on school?
> 
> Do you think the quasi military atmosphere of 'give me 50 pushups' is the correct way to instill discpline in a civilian martial arts club? I don't and I'm an instructor in a military martial arts club. Your instructor is on an ego trip in my opinion.
> 
> You do know that martial arts are for more than just doing 'pretty' movements? The bottom line is fighting, it is being able to defend yourself against attackers, that's what it's for, if you chose to put 'art' into that, it's up to you but never forget why you learn to kick and punch.



I am not sure why you are attacking me. I was unaware of how my school would be viewed by other Martial Arts professionals, such as yourself, so the things that you, and others, have stated over the past couple of days is new news to me, but I wanted feedback and I received it!
I am not sure why you are now using the fact that I asked for your opinions as something negative that I have done. After I received feedback that it probably wasn't a "good thing" that an isntructor would say something like that, I never defended them.

As stated, I value your opinion and appreciate that you took the time out to respond, but I do want more out of my martial art than just knowing how to fight! I know different people join for different reasons, and of course I want to learn how to defend myself, but I do enjoy tyring to get all of the forms and such in a correct manner that is acceptable to the instructors.

I am now confused.


----------



## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> I am not sure why you are attacking me. I was unaware of how my school would be viewed by other Martial Arts professionals, such as yourself, so the things that you, and others, have stated over the past couple of days is new news to me, but I wanted feedback and I received it!
> I am not sure why you are now using the fact that I asked for your opinions as something negative that I have done. After I received feedback that it probably wasn't a "good thing" that an isntructor would say something like that, I never defended them.
> 
> As stated, I value your opinion and appreciate that you took the time out to respond, but I do want more out of my martial art than just knowing how to fight! I know different people join for different reasons, and of course I want to learn how to defend myself, but I do enjoy tyring to get all of the forms and such in a correct manner that is acceptable to the instructors.
> 
> I am now confused.



I'm not atacking you in the least but your negative comments about others styles and ways of training will be questioned not just by me I'm afraid. You've already had comments about belts and forms in BJJ and MMA, the scenerio you describe isn't what happens at reputable BJJ and MMA gyms. 

When you learn your hyungs do you also understand what they are for and why you do them? Or is it just about doing the movements?


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## EddieCyrax

When did MMA becomes something other than Mixed Martial Arts.  Doesn't the MMA contain athletes who are trained and schooled in BBJ, wrestling, Kempo/Kenpo, Kung Fu, Karate, etc?  It is the competition between individual with varying styles/disciplines on a controled combatitive stage.

I agree that there are alot of meat heads that pursue MMA without a real understanding of the history, but there are a lot of skilled Martial Artists as well.  I would argue that the UFC contenders all have varying ranks in mutliple traditional arts.

As it relates to this topic, I think most have already discussed that there are many McDojo's out their, many poor instructors, but keep looking because there are equally as many quality schools/instructors in all the various traditional arts.


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## Kaygee

Tez3,
I'm sorry if you found my description of my experience at the ONE SCHOOL that taught MMA/BJJ school as a "negative comment", but it was not my intention to come off that way. I was just trying to tell a story about how ONE INSTRUCTOR seemed like he had no respect for the martial arts. I even stated in the beginning of my post I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain because I am sure they are all not like that. 

I was certain, even before you stated so in your thread above, that the scenario that I described is not what happens at reputable BJJ and MMA gyms. I am getting the feeling that you took my post the wrong way.


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## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> Tez3,
> I'm sorry if you found my description of my experience at the ONE SCHOOL that taught MMA/BJJ school as a "negative comment", but it was not my intention to come off that way. I was just trying to tell a story about how ONE INSTRUCTOR seemed like he had no respect for the martial arts. I even stated in the beginning of my post I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain because I am sure they are all not like that.
> 
> I was certain, even before you stated so in your thread above, that the scenario that I described is not what happens at reputable BJJ and MMA gyms. I am getting the feeling that you took my post the wrong way.




Not in the least, I was actually asking you questions not attacking you, none of which you've answered btw.


----------



## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> Not in the least, I was actually asking you questions not attacking you, none of which you've answered btw.


I am sorry if I missed a question or two, but I do see this one:

When you learn your hyungs do you also understand what they are for and why you do them? Or is it just about doing the movements?

The answer would be, I guess. It is supposed to help you learn rythm, control and breathing???


----------



## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> I am sorry if I missed a question or two, but I do see this one:
> 
> When you learn your hyungs do you also understand what they are for and why you do them? Or is it just about doing the movements?
> 
> *The answer would be, I guess. It is supposed to help you learn rythm, control and breathing*???




No, that may be by-products but that's not the purpose of them. to be honest I could cry with frustration every time I hear this!

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-kata


if you are just learning them as a series of meaningless movements you are being badly served by your instructors indeed.


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## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> No, that may be by-products but that's not the purpose of them. to be honest I could cry with frustration every time I hear this!
> 
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1
> 
> http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/brief-history-kata
> 
> 
> if you are just learning them as a series of meaningless movements you are being badly served by your instructors indeed.



Great read, indeed! Thank you very much for the links!


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## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> Great read, indeed! Thank you very much for the links!



Iain is absolutely brilliant and is at the forefront of the use of practical applications in karate. TSD is so like Wado Ryu and Shotokan so you will have no difficulty in seeing the techniques in the hyungs. Start looking for the Bunkai and I can promise you your whole training will be transformed, it's that good ...and it's what the hynugs/patterns/kata are for!


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## Kaygee

I'd have to say that when I first started reading the first article, I never even thought how something like a high block could be turned into a strike. I always thought to myself, when I spar, how come I never use the "correct" blocking technique by using the correct chambering, etc. I guess the answer really is, that isn't really possible to pull that off in a real fight, is it? When I spar, I block, and I block well, but I never do it the way I do it in a form. So making a high block or an outside inside block an actual strike while in close makes a lot of sense to me!


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## Steve

Kaygee said:


> Tez3,
> I'm sorry if you found my description of my experience at the ONE SCHOOL that taught MMA/BJJ school as a "negative comment", but it was not my intention to come off that way. I was just trying to tell a story about how ONE INSTRUCTOR seemed like he had no respect for the martial arts. I even stated in the beginning of my post I will not name the schools because it is not fair if it was just a bad school in one chain because I am sure they are all not like that.
> 
> I was certain, even before you stated so in your thread above, that the scenario that I described is not what happens at reputable BJJ and MMA gyms. I am getting the feeling that you took my post the wrong way.



Which school was it?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kaygee

Steve said:


> Which school was it?




I am sorry, my friend, but I am not going to answer that question. It would do nothing but change the way someone may feel towards that school/chain.


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## Tez3

I do wish people who misread posts would actually bother to ask the person making the post what they meant instead of doling out anonymous neg rep, please have the courage of your convictions and don't hide behind anonymity.

I haven't attacked anyone's martial arts style, I've asked some questions about something someone wrote. It's been misread as an attack when it really wasn't, trust me, when I attack there really is no mistake about it. :uhohh:


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## Steve

Kaygee said:


> I am sorry, my friend, but I am not going to answer that question. It would do nothing but change the way someone may feel towards that school/chain.



It does make it difficult to believe you, though.  If you recieved poor service in a restaurant, would you feel bad posting a review on yelp?  What about a bad movie?  Would you be reluctant to share your experience?  Why is this different?  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## harlan

Question for Steve: not sure...but would 'naming names' be against the forum's policy?


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## Tez3

I doubt very much anyone would change their mind about the place they trained at just because of something was said on here, they may have an explanation or a reason the poster saw what he did, they may say that's never happened, the poster was mistaken, there's various reasons we should know which club it was. I've never across behaviour like that alleged but perhaps the place is known for it or perhaps there was in a mistake in the reporting of it, we would like to know that's all.


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## harlan

Well, Tez, I was asking Steve, who was asking 'why not' for a name. 

I wasn't sure, and so asked for clarification. I could only find this, and in the spirit of wanting to keep discussion focused on the topic. 

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?80414-Revised-Policies-Non-Desirables


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## Steve

harlan said:


> Question for Steve: not sure...but would 'naming names' be against the forum's policy?


I'll let a mod chime in on that.  My personal opinion is that this isn't fraud busting.  It's establishing credibility.

Look.  It's easy to make stuff up.  The description of the "MMA/BJJ" school is so completely foreign to anything I've ever seen or heard about that it is, frankly, very difficult for me to believe.  And an unwillingness to share the name of this school doesn't help establish credibility.  If preferred, Kaygee, you can PM me the name.  If this school DOES exist, I'm sure you can understand that I'd like to know about it so that I can share the information within the relatively small MMA/BJJ community.


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## harlan

A different label but the same thing. I must have missed some details somewhere...but it sounds like if a member isn't willing to name names, that they have to 'prove themselves' via PM?


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## Tez3

Harlen, I wasn't addressing you or Steve for that matter but Kaygee who suggested that reading about a club could change someone who trains at its mind about the place.


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## Steve

harlan said:


> A different label but the same thing. I must have missed some details somewhere...but it sounds like if a member isn't willing to name names, that they have to 'prove themselves' via PM?


 To be clear, he doesn't have to name names, but I'm going to make it very clear in the thread for anyone reading now and in the future that as someone knowledgeable in the specific style in question, I think his allegation is so far away from the norm, it's almost surely untrue.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Kaygee

I do not see any reason why I have to share the name of this school with you, or anyone!
I have posted my story and my story is on this forum and my story is true!......And it wasn't meant to put any type of school down, it was just my story. I woldn't have posted it if I knew people would be this sensitive to it.

Believe it, or don't believe it...that's your decision and it doesn't matter to me which decision you decide to make! 

So make I'll it "very clear" in the thread for anyone reading now, and in the future, that my "allegation" is so far away from the norm, it's almost surely untrue.

There, I did it for ya! And I do not doubt that it was an odd occurrence! But it DID indeed happen! I've never witnessed so much anger and mistrust on a martial arts message board before......


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## Steve

Kaygee said:


> I do not see any reason why I have to share the name of this school with you, or anyone!


You don't.  But at the same time, in any discussion here or anywhere else, it's a rare situation to be able to make unsubstantiated claims without expecting some push back.  Were I to claim I walked into a Tang Soo Do school and saw the instructor teaching a class full of circus animals, I'd expect to either substantiate the claim or have my credibility questioned.   It's far fetched. 





> I have posted my story and my story is on this forum and my story is true!......And it wasn't meant to put any type of school down, it was just my story. I woldn't have posted it if I knew people would be this sensitive to it.


Well, here's the thing.  It was intended to be a put down.  You were absolutely critical of that school (and rightfully so, if it was actually run the way you say it was.)   





> Believe it, or don't believe it...that's your decision and it doesn't matter to me which decision you decide to make!


Thanks!  I don't believe it.  But I'm willing to admit my mistake should evidence to the contrary be provided.





> So make I'll it "very clear" in the thread for anyone reading now, and in the future, that my "allegation" is so far away from the norm, it's almost surely untrue.
> 
> There, I did it for ya! And I do not doubt that it was an odd occurrence! But it DID indeed happen! I've never witnessed so much anger and mistrust on a martial arts message board before......


I don't think anyone's angry.  I'm certainly not.  I don't think Tez is.  She's got a pretty thick skin.  I am posting more with an iPad, and so my posts tend to be a lot shorter, which means that I'm cutting to the chase a little more.  Typing on that little keypad with my fat fingers is tedious.  

And I don't think we're inherently mistrustful.  But if I were to say, "That guy teaching circus animals?  His Sa Bum Nim is a 3rd dan AND a chimpanzee!"  Is it possible?  I... guess it could be.  Would you take that at face value?  I should hope not.  

Ultimately, as I said earlier, if you ate at a terrible Italian Restaurant, would you be reluctant to share the name?  I wouldn't.  Yelp exists entirely based on the presumption that most wouldn't.  Most people would consider your honest account to be helpful.  So, why are you reluctant to share details of your experience here?  I honestly don't get it.


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## jks9199

OK, here's the deal:

Nobody is required to name names in a case like this.  If they're not comfortable doing so, they don't have to.  The lack of a name may cause people to doubt the story -- or not.  Credibility is in the eye of the reader; the administration here very rarely and only in very extreme cases will get involved in that sort of thing.  Hounding them about it could become a problem.

Fraudbusting is a "we know it when we see it" sort of thing...   The staff has, more than once, tried to pin it down better than that, with little success.  It's generally OK to ask about someone's credentials or ask about an instructor or school's quality or reputation -- but not to hound people for answers.


----------



## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> I do not see any reason why I have to share the name of this school with you, or anyone!
> I have posted my story and my story is on this forum and my story is true!......And it wasn't meant to put any type of school down, it was just my story. I woldn't have posted it if I knew people would be this sensitive to it.
> 
> Believe it, or don't believe it...that's your decision and it doesn't matter to me which decision you decide to make!
> 
> So make I'll it "very clear" in the thread for anyone reading now, and in the future, that my "allegation" is so far away from the norm, it's almost surely untrue.
> 
> There, I did it for ya! And I do not doubt that it was an odd occurrence! But it DID indeed happen! I've never witnessed so much anger and mistrust on a martial arts message board before......




Whoa, hold your horses mate, you haven't made Steve angry (that's my perogative by the way) nor is he mistrustful as such. You have made an allegation against a BJJ gym, Steve would like to know which one, nought wrong with that. I've already posted up a couple of reasons why we should know who this 'bad' place to train is.  This is a public place, if you are going to make allegations one should substantiate them or not make them. You may be upset because you think you are being called a liar but all you are being asked is to give the name of the place so Steve can do some looking, it doesn't benefit anyone if there is a bad training place nor does it benefit anyone if a good place gets misunderstood and thought of as a bad place to go. Now many people reading this could think that BJJ isn't a good style to do just in case they end up in this place you talked about that's hardly fair is it?


----------



## Tez3

Steve said:


> You don't. But at the same time, in any discussion here or anywhere else, it's a rare situation to be able to make unsubstantiated claims without expecting some push back. Were I to claim I walked into a Tang Soo Do school and saw the instructor teaching a class full of circus animals, I'd expect to either substantiate the claim or have my credibility questioned. It's far fetched. Well, here's the thing. It was intended to be a put down. You were absolutely critical of that school (and rightfully so, if it was actually run the way you say it was.) Thanks! I don't believe it. But I'm willing to admit my mistake should evidence to the contrary be provided.I don't think anyone's angry. I'm certainly not. I don't think Tez is. She's got a pretty thick skin. I am posting more with an iPad, and so my posts tend to be a lot shorter, which means that I'm cutting to the chase a little more. Typing on that little keypad with my fat fingers is tedious.
> 
> And I don't think we're inherently mistrustful. But if I were to say, "That guy teaching circus animals? His Sa Bum Nim is a 3rd dan AND a chimpanzee!" Is it possible? I... guess it could be. Would you take that at face value? I should hope not.
> 
> Ultimately, as I said earlier, if you ate at a terrible Italian Restaurant, would you be reluctant to share the name? I wouldn't. Yelp exists entirely based on the presumption that most wouldn't. Most people would consider your honest account to be helpful. So, why are you reluctant to share details of your experience here? I honestly don't get it.



Not in the least angry, very mellow in fact, it's Jubilee weekend, been out to watch the beacons being lit on the hills and came back to watch the Queen light the last one then we all sang 'Land of Soap and Water' sorry Land of Hope and Glory.

Someone thinks that because I asked if the instructor handing out 50 press ups is the sign of a good club I have attacked a poster here, I don't think instructors like that are good ones, I don't like pseudo-mystical martial arts clubs either, if I'd gone to one and found it like that, then posted up about it I would name it. Perhaps people would agree with me, perhaps not but I wouldn't say things against somewhere like that and leave the impression I thought all places that train that style are like that.


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## Tez3

A good article on BJJ for beginners and non BJJers.
http://www.rgaa.co.uk/blog_article.htm/my_blogs/progress_in_bjj


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Do you think the quasi military atmosphere of 'give me 50 pushups' is the correct way to instill discpline in a civilian martial arts club? I don't and I'm an instructor in a military martial arts club. Your instructor is on an ego trip in my opinion.


Tez, he argued with the Master for God's sake! The correct answer was, yes sir. Then you can ask about it later. This isn't about an ego trip, its about discipline. 
Sean


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> Tez, he argued with the Master for God's sake! The correct answer was, yes sir. Then you can ask about it later. This isn't about an ego trip, its about discipline.
> Sean




I've heard about places where you go for 'discipline'!


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> I've heard about places where you go for 'discipline'!


I thought that was our secret.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Based on Kaygee's posts so far, I think that he/she is sincere in his/her description of events.  (Sorry for the pronoun confusion, but I haven't seen any gender identification so far.)

I do think it entirely likely that Kaygee happened to visit a phony BJJ school or a legit but crappy one or that he/she just misinterpreted what was going on there due to not having an appropriate frame of reference.


----------



## Kaygee

Tony Dismukes said:


> Based on Kaygee's posts so far, I think that he/she is sincere in his/her description of events. (Sorry for the pronoun confusion, but I haven't seen any gender identification so far.)
> 
> I do think it entirely likely that Kaygee happened to visit a phony BJJ school or a legit but crappy one or that he/she just misinterpreted what was going on there due to not having an appropriate frame of reference.



That is on point! And I clearly identified in my post that I do not like when any instructor (or any person for that matter) bashes or mocks another style.................so right there, I thought it was clear that I was blaming my bad experience on the instructor, not the school.....which, after further investigation on my part, is an MMA/BJJ/Kenpo school. So the "forms' that he referred to may very well have been the Kenpo forms (if Kenpo has forms). As I was informed on here by the wonderful, polite, and patient members of this community, that BJJ does not have forms.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I was in a kenpo school some years back. On the surface, they had everything right.  Nice clean uniforms, clean training area, lots of happy little kids and their karate moms beaming as the instructors added more electrical tape to their belts as 'progress indicators', trophies on the wall, and so forth.  Watching a class, there was the proper amount of 'japanese' being used, 'sensei' this and 'sensei' that, and lots of little shouting as they threw kicks and punches.  It all looked "right".

Years later, having been to numerous kenpo events, talked to numerous 'names' in that art, become much more aware of what proper kenpo is, I can say without doubt the school was utter crap. They are still around, still open, still turning out 'black belts' who are walked through their tests step by step by the head instructor, still training that only the chest is a target, still mis-using Japanese terms, and still puffing like a steam engine when they throw a powerless punch.  Their lineage chart has so much white out and dotted lines on it you'd think they had stock in the stuff.

The name's not important. There's one of these types of schools in every town...sometimes several.  

Each of us have this 'idea' of what proper martial arts are, what the correct way to do our chosen arts, is.  We got that by experience, training and 'getting out and seeing more'.

BJJ is a set system, with correct and incorrect ways to do a finite series of techniques.  Someone new will not know this. Someone with a little bit of experience will not be able to see the difference between crap make believe and serious experience.  Replace BJJ with any art. Doesn't matter. 

In commercial schools there is a trend, a sad one IMO, to be more daycare than training. Things are grafted on to 'soften' things, because the 'karate moms who doat on their darlings' are the ones who pay to keep the lights on.  Sparing is limited, simplified or often eliminated all together. Throws are dropped, contact limited or removed, and so forth.  You end up with little more than karate-aerobics, but the fitness benefits are poor because you have stripped so much away. 

The OP made some observations and asked for thoughts.  Those are mine. YMMV.

One final one: You may learn all the moves to the dance, you may even be able to duplicate them flawlessly, but you haven't learned to dance until you understand why you do the moves.


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## Tez3

No one has been rude or abrasive on this thread. Misunderstandings abound when all you have is the written word, no facial expressions or tone of voice to guide one as to the intent of the words. 
The only bashing of a style/club came from Kaygee who tells us we have read the post incorrectly, as I said sometimes what we are saying in our head doesn't come out the same when printed. I asked if he/she thought it was correct that an instuctor should discipline a student, an adult at that, by quasi military 'punishments', that's not an attack that's a question.

anyway going to cut this short, the Queen is on the balcony and the RAF abut to fly past.
I'll be back


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> No one has been rude or abrasive on this thread. Misunderstandings abound when all you have is the written word, no facial expressions or tone of voice to guide one as to the intent of the words.
> The only bashing of a style/club came from Kaygee who tells us we have read the post incorrectly, as I said sometimes what we are saying in our head doesn't come out the same when printed. I asked if he/she thought it was correct that an instuctor should discipline a student, an adult at that, by quasi military 'punishments', that's not an attack that's a question.
> 
> anyway going to cut this short, the Queen is on the balcony and the RAF abut to fly past.
> I'll be back


I asked "why" I didn't have my belt after a test, and got smacked for my trouble; so, push-ups aren't the end of the world. He won't argue again, I don't argue, and considering you hold peoples lives in your hand when practicing, someone should have the authority to say, "Stop! Show some control.". If that repels you, then you aren't practicing in a safe environment.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

We have a saying, in our group, that we have the kids recite. "Listening creates reflexes. Not listening creates, strong arms." feel free to steal this. 
Sean


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> I asked "why" I didn't have my belt after a test, and got smacked for my trouble; so, push-ups aren't the end of the world. He won't argue again, I don't argue, and considering you hold peoples lives in your hand when practicing, someone should have the authority to say, "Stop! Show some control.". If that repels you, then you aren't practicing in a safe environment.
> Sean




Repels me? why should it?
 It can also a sign that someone could be on an ego trip, yelling 'give me 50 mister', this is why I was asking if if was appropriate, _asking_, please note, not saying 'good grief this is wrong'. We don't make people do 50 press ups, we don't need to, a quiet explanation of why you don't do something is enough, when teaching adults one treats them as adults not as conscripts into an army.   Our environment is very safe thank you, we train MMA and fight full contact, our guys are used to training in much more dangerous environments and know how discipline should be applied.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Repels me? why should it?
> It can also a sign that someone could be on an ego trip, yelling 'give me 50 mister', this is why I was asking if if was appropriate, _asking_, please note, not saying 'good grief this is wrong'. We don't make people do 50 press ups, we don't need to, a quiet explanation of why you don't do something is enough, when teaching adults one treats them as adults not as conscripts into an army.   Our environment is very safe thank you, we train MMA and fight full contact, our guys are used to training in much more dangerous environments and know how discipline should be applied.


Having to do a question and answer session every time you correct someone is not an application of discipline.
Sean


----------



## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> when teaching adults one treats them as adults not as conscripts into an army



Actually, the word MARTIAL in martial arts has a lot to do with it being an "army" typed based of combat training.
And how each instructor teaches/disciplines their students is totally up to them. You teach/would teach a different way?....bravo to you! But your critique of my instructor telling me do 50 pushups is no different than my story about the BJJ/MMA school that I went to in which I had a bad experience at, at which you had so much to say about how I shouldn't say something "negative" about a school without naming it.

If you want, I can provide you with the defintiion of a hypocrite if you like.....because that is now MY opinion of YOU! It seems that you are quick to the draw to "call people out" on wether or not someone is credible or not because of their "negative comments", as you so eloquently put it, about a school, yet you do the same exact thing in your own, non-subtle way.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> Having to do a question and answer session every time you correct someone is not an application of discipline.
> Sean



Ah I see, it's the old unquestioning obedience thing, doesn't work in an MMA class of adults who fight, another point against MMA I expect. We don't train in lines, we don't do the 'silence while training bit, it's all about exploring techniques, seeing what works for you in a fight. We don't 'correct' people as such, it doesn't work like TMA in that respect, we don't all have to do it exactly the same, some things work for some, others things don't, depends on height, weight, strength so yeah we have a lot of questioning going on, we still don't need to be doing 50 press ups. Our discipline is self discipline not that imposed form an instructor. We know the 'rules' about safety, tapping and the techniques to go carefully on, we don't need to be 'punished'. 
I've been to quite a few TMA places that work on the principle that you will do a technique better if you know why you do it that way, not do it because I say so. Questions are indeed allowed in fact encouraged, I've always enjoyed training with instructors who will explain and answer questions. I've never trained anywhere that demanded instant obedience on the pain of doing press ups or other physical punishments.


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## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> I've never trained anywhere that demanded instant obedience on the pain of doing press ups or other physical punishments.


I tihnk I found your problem!


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> I've never trained anywhere that demanded instant obedience on the pain of doing press ups or other physical punishments.


Of that, I am sure.


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## Touch Of Death

Kaygee said:


> I tihnk I found your problem!


Buy me a coke... without question!


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## Touch Of Death

Mind you Tez, adults generally stop acting un-disciplined after one correction. Its not an everyday thing.
Sean


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## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> Actually, the word MARTIAL in martial arts has a lot to do with it being an "army" typed based of combat training.
> And how each instructor teaches/disciplines their students is totally up to them. You teach/would teach a different way?....bravo to you! But your critique of my instructor telling me do 50 pushups is no different than my story about the BJJ/MMA school that I went to in which I had a bad experience at, at which you had so much to say about how I shouldn't say something "negative" about a school without naming it.
> 
> If you want, I can provide you with the defintiion of a hypocrite if you like.....because that is now MY opinion of YOU! It seems that you are quick to the draw to "call people out" on wether or not someone is credible or not because of their "negative comments", as you so eloquently put it, about a school, yet you do the same exact thing in your own, non-subtle way.




My critique? because I asked you a question? Oh my, not very defensive are you? I take it you don't like being asked questions.

I haven't 'called' anyone out, I've asked questions you don't want to answer, fine but don't see aggression in me that is in you. You are the one with the sarcastic remarks about posters here not me. You see in my posts something that's not there, you are putting there as you did with Steves posts.

I don't have an opinion of you, I haven't expressed one, you are name calling not I. I asked you a few questions, you could answer politely instead of taking umbrage.

I don't feel any need to make my students do 50 press ups because they do a technique wrong or because they ask a question, why would I? They won't fight in the cage any better for it.


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## Tony Dismukes

There's a major cultural divide in the martial arts regarding the meaning of "respect" and "discipline."

On one hand you have an approach which is very rooted in an hiearchical view of the world. For this camp, respect and discipline are reflected in such things as formality, titles, unquestioned obedience of seniors, doing pushups as punishment, shouting "sir", etc, etc. Some of this may go back to traditional cultural values built around Confucianism, which is all about the hiearchies. Some of it may go back to instructors who originally learned in the military and who continue that tradition. Some of it may relate to instructors who have a need for ego gratification. (These categories are not mutually exclusive.)

There is another school of thought that says you respect each person you train with for stepping on the mat and you also respect them for the abilities and behavior they exhibit - but this doesn't have anything to do with formality or titles. No one at my gym calls my BJJ instructor "sir" or "sensei", but I guarantee we all respect him. You show discipline by driving yourself to train hard and safely. Pushups are for conditioning, not punishment.

This second approach is the one that feels right for me. It seems like a more authentic way to relate to other human beings. However, there are a lot of people who feel that they get a lot more out of the first approach. I'm not about to tell them they're wrong as long as they're happy with the experience.


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> Mind you Tez, adults generally stop acting un-disciplined after one correction. Its not an everyday thing.
> Sean



So asking a question is being undisciplined? I have probably the most disciplined in nearly all aspects of their lives students going, why would I make them do press ups because they do a technique wrong or ask a question? If they get a bit boisterous a word will stop them, it does when I'm reffing in the cage as well, I ref pro rules male MMA and it does in training. My students have been trained, not by me but by the same process I was trained to have good self dicipline.


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## Tez3

Tony Dismukes said:


> There's a major cultural divide in the martial arts regarding the meaning of "respect" and "discipline."
> 
> On one hand you have an approach which is very rooted in an hiearchical view of the world. For this camp, respect and discipline are reflected in such things as formality, titles, unquestioned obedience of seniors, doing pushups as punishment, shouting "sir", etc, etc. Some of this may go back to traditional cultural values built around Confucianism, which is all about the hiearchies. Some of it may go back to instructors who originally learned in the military and who continue that tradition. Some of it may relate to instructors who have a need for ego gratification. (These categories are not mutually exclusive.)
> 
> There is another school of thought that says you respect each person you train with for stepping on the mat and you also respect them for the abilities and behavior they exhibit - but this doesn't have anything to do with formality or titles. No one at my gym calls my BJJ instructor "sir" or "sensei", but I guarantee we all respect him. You show discipline by driving yourself to train hard and safely. Pushups are for conditioning, not punishment.
> 
> This second approach is the one that feels right for me. It seems like a more authentic way to relate to other human beings. However, there are a lot of people who feel that they get a lot more out of the first approach. I'm not about to tell them they're wrong as long as they're happy with the experience.




Well said! That's exactly how I feel. My question, not a comment on the poster's school, was did he feel it appropriate to discipline with 50 sit ups, a polite answer may have meant he was a believer in the former not the latter as you and I do. That's what I was looking for.


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> My critique? because I asked you a question? Oh my, not very defensive are you? I take it you don't like being asked questions.
> 
> I haven't 'called' anyone out, I've asked questions you don't want to answer, fine but don't see aggression in me that is in you. You are the one with the sarcastic remarks about posters here not me. You see in my posts something that's not there, you are putting there as you did with Steves posts.
> 
> I don't have an opinion of you, I haven't expressed one, you are name calling not I. I asked you a few questions, you could answer politely instead of taking umbrage.
> 
> I don't feel any need to make my students do 50 press ups because they do a technique wrong or because they ask a question, why would I? They won't fight in the cage any better for it.


Umbrage is a very cool word.  However, learning from another person requires some discipline, People are mostly prepped by being in school as children; so, I am guessing you don't accept just anyone in your school. It sounds as if you expect it, and don't believe respect should be taught by the teachers. You make a one time only correction sound like crime, but it really is just about knowing when to ask questions and when to just shut up. You remember school, right?
Sean


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## harlan

It's all about context, and shared values. Spoken and unspoken. A generous training atmosphere recognizes that the newbie must be informed of expectations and rules and does it without ripping him/her a new one.

Works for forums too.



Tez3 said:


> So asking a question is being undisciplined? I have probably the most disciplined in nearly all aspects of their lives students going, why would I make them do press ups because they do a technique wrong or ask a question? If they get a bit boisterous a word will stop them, it does when I'm reffing in the cage as well, I ref pro rules male MMA and it does in training. My students have been trained, not by me but by the same process I was trained to have good self dicipline.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> Umbrage is a very cool word.  However, learning from another person requires some discipline, People are mostly prepped by being in school as children; so, I am guessing you don't accept just anyone in your school. It sounds as if you expect it, and don't believe respect should be taught by the teachers. You make a one time only correction sound like crime, but it really is just about knowing when to ask questions and when to just shut up. You remember school, right?
> Sean



We take anyone in our classes. Respect, ah now there's a thing. Do you expect respect just because you are an instructor? 

We take people into our classes who have come to learn so the willingness on their part is already there. They don't need 'discipline' to learn, they want to learn already, we aren't a compulsory club like school, no one has to come to classes therefore those that do are attentive,keen, willing and wanting to try their best. They also pay for their lessons so they have the right to be taught in the best way we can, if they want to know something they will be told it. We aren't a business but when people are paying with their hard earned cash they deserve being treated like adults. They have common sense they know when to ask and when to wait. If they do ask at the 'wrong' time, then as I said a quick word will suffice ie 'hang on a minute mate and I'll tell you'. Adultspeak.


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## Touch Of Death

harlan said:


> It's all about context, and shared values. Spoken and unspoken. A generous training atmosphere recognizes that the newbie must be informed of expectations and rules and does it without ripping him/her a new one.
> 
> Works for forums too.


Push-ups are not a new one. Just saying


----------



## harlan

Yes.



Tez3 said:


> Respect, ah now there's a thing. Do you expect respect just because you are an instructor?


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> They don't need 'discipline' to learn


 You understand, don't you, that learning requires discipline? I mean in its most basic meaning. You can't be corrected if you don't accept the correction kind of thing.  That stern word, you mentioned that is all adults need, was disciplining, and it works because they have been conditioned to accept it. As for expecting respect, I can't teach someone that won't listen. See how that works. 
Sean


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## Tez3

harlan said:


> Yes.



Why? do you have automatic respect for a poor instructor just because he/she has a black belt? 

Respect has to be earned even for an instructor. You don't have to disrespect someone but you need to see what qualities they have before you can respect them. I would say though that respect isn't the right word in this context, I think we are meaning something else. Respect is a big thing, not to be given lightly, however one can be civil, polite, regardful of ones instructor rather than respect. I suspect this may be a cultural difference in meaning, when you say repsect I think you mean be polite to etc. We tend to mean respect as in respecting a war hero for his bravery, a great person for his humanity etc.


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## harlan

I don't choose to train with poor instructors.

I expect respect from a potential student even before they have met me - because that is the only kind of student I will accept. I provide the environment and the knowledge and am responsible for what goes on in the dojo and don't have time to deal with people on ego-trips, or deficient in social skills or intellect.

Again, as I referenced earlier, it has much to do with context. There is this concept of 'rei' in karate, and lip-service to it is only cheating one's self in training.





Tez3 said:


> Why? do you have automatic respect for a poor instructor just because he/she has a black belt?
> 
> Respect has to be earned even for an instructor. You don't have to disrespect someone but you need to see what qualities they have before you can respect them. I would say though that respect isn't the right word in this context, I think we are meaning something else. Respect is a big thing, not to be given lightly, however one can be civil, polite, regardful of ones instructor rather than respect. I suspect this may be a culteral differencein meaning, when you say repsect I think you mean be polite to etc. We tend to mean respect as in respecting a war hero for his bravery, a great person for his humanity etc.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> You understand, don't you, that learning requires discipline? I mean in its most basic meaning. You can't be corrected if you don't accept the correction kind of thing.  That stern word, you mentioned that is all adults need, was disciplining, and it works because they have been conditioned to accept it. As for expecting respect, I can't teach someone that won't listen. See how that works.
> Sean



And I've already told you that my students are disciplined already! 

Not listening isn't lack of respect, it's rudeness.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> Why? do you have automatic respect for a poor instructor just because he/she has a black belt?
> 
> Respect has to be earned even for an instructor. You don't have to disrespect someone but you need to see what qualities they have before you can respect them. I would say though that respect isn't the right word in this context, I think we are meaning something else. Respect is a big thing, not to be given lightly, however one can be civil, polite, regardful of ones instructor rather than respect. I suspect this may be a cultural difference in meaning, when you say repsect I think you mean be polite to etc. We tend to mean respect as in respecting a war hero for his bravery, a great person for his humanity etc.


The ability to show respect, is more important than, feeling it. LOL


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## Tez3

harlan said:


> I don't choose to train with poor instructors.
> 
> I expect respect from a potential student even before they have met me - because that is the only kind of student I will accept. I provide the environment and the knowledge and am responsible for what goes on in the dojo and don't have time to deal with people on ego-trips, or deficient in social skills or intellect.




As I said I think we we look at 'respect' in a different way. To me you want politeness, regard for what you do and good behaviour, to me that's not respect. To me to respect someone is to honour them. I don't expect to be honoured as an instructor, if I gain respect ie honour from my students then that is different from expecting them to be polite and well behaved which I do. As I said perhaps it's cultural, in more ways than just Uk v the US, I think it has overtones of East v West as well.


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## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> And I've already told you that my students are disciplined already!
> 
> Not listening isn't lack of respect, it's rudeness.


No, not listening indicates a lack of discipline. This is the kind of thing that gets people punched in the face. You may take it as rudeness and react accordingly, and some recognize it as a learning disability. Rudeness in and of itself, is showing disrespect. Honest! We are talking about levels of competence here.
Sean


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## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> The ability to show respect, is more important than, feeling it. LOL




As I've just answered harlan, to respect someone is to honour them, I don't expect honour but do expect politeness and good behaviour that which you call respect. Respect to us is what is reserved for people who are brave/show great character under hard circumstances etc etc.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> As I said I think we we look at 'respect' in a different way. To me you want politeness, regard for what you do and good behaviour, to me that's not respect. To me to respect someone is to honour them. I don't expect to be honoured as an instructor, if I gain respect ie honour from my students then that is different from expecting them to be polite and well behaved which I do. As I said perhaps it's cultural, in more ways than just Uk v the US, I think it has overtones of East v West as well.


Perhaps it would help if you realized there are more definitions for the term, than honoring war heroes.
sean


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## harlan

FYI: I was adding to my post/editing during your reply and see that it addresses your comment.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> No, not listening indicates a lack of discipline. This is the kind of thing that gets people punched in the face. You may take it as rudeness and react accordingly, and some recognize it as a learning disability. Rudeness in and of itself, is showing disrespect. Honest! We are talking about levels of competence here.
> Sean



I've often heard on American programmes someone in a paddy shouting 'you've disrespected (more likely 'dissed') me', that's not how we see it, we don't use the word respect in that context. We are talking at cross purposes here I'm afraid.


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> Perhaps it would help if you realized there are more definitions for the term, than honoring war heroes.
> sean



That was an _example_ of how the word respect is used here, as I said we are talking at cross purposes, we probably mean the same thing but use different terms which mean different things to us. We'll continue to go around in circles I think.


----------



## harlan

We have British programming here as well, and observed plenty of 'fawning' exhibited in the guise of respect. But I've enough experience in life to know that one doesn't base an understanding of someone's culture on a TV show.

I would suggest it's a matter of semantics, and levels of sensitivity are dependant on education, experience and ego (or lack of).



Tez3 said:


> I've often heard on American programmes someone in a paddy shouting 'you've disrespected (more likely 'dissed') me', that's not how we see it, we don't use the word respect in that context. We are talking at cross purposes here I'm afraid.


----------



## Kaygee

touch of death said:


> perhaps it would help if you realized there are more definitions for the term, than honoring war heroes.
> Sean



qft


----------



## Kaygee

It would probably be better if we let this thread get back on topic. We obivously have a difference in what the word "respect" means and how would would/should run schools.

So just let it go.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> I've often heard on American programmes someone in a paddy shouting 'you've disrespected (more likely 'dissed') me', that's not how we see it, we don't use the word respect in that context. We are talking at cross purposes here I'm afraid.


Ok, a lesson in American English: As children we are taught to respect the laws and customs of our country or any country we visit. Translation: do what is expected of you....
Now stop correcting us; because, the word is bigger than you are trying to make it.
Sean


----------



## Tez3

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok, a lesson in American English: As children we are taught to respect the laws and customs of our country or any country we visit. Translation: do what is expected of you....
> Now stop correcting us; because, the word is bigger than you are trying to make it.
> Sean




And a lesson in American politics too, gang up and lets push someone out who's opinion is different even when they explain that they don't understand your point of view and try to explain their point of view. Very 'respectuful' indeed. Oh well I know when I'm not wanted, happy press ups people roflmao.


----------



## harlan

Oh...please don't go.


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## Tez3

harlan said:


> Oh...please don't go.



What and receive even more nasty comment on my rep, oh I don't think so. Some people don't play fair, I do but I play hard too.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> And a lesson in American politics too, gang up and lets push someone out who's opinion is different even when they explain that they don't understand your point of view and try to explain their point of view. Very 'respectuful' indeed. Oh well I know when I'm not wanted, happy press ups people roflmao.


All I am asking is that you grab a dictionary. Its in English. And I, for one, like you. I think you are way off, and  I want to help sometimes, that's all.
Sean


----------



## harlan

"You have some odd ideas about people", Tez. 

I don't see any game here, only folks trying to hash out the semantics of something in order to get back to the original post. Being passive aggressive as it suits you isn't really playing fair.



Tez3 said:


> What and receive even more nasty comment on my rep, oh I don't think so. Some people don't play fair, I do but I play hard too.


----------



## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> And a lesson in American politics too, gang up and lets push someone out who's opinion is different even when they explain that they don't understand your point of view and try to explain their point of view. Very 'respectuful' indeed. Oh well I know when I'm not wanted, happy press ups people roflmao.


How the heck did you get to the point where you are attacking our country? What is wrong with you?


----------



## jks9199

Hey, everybody...

Let's back off a bit, OK?  I don't think anyone here was trying to be insulting or disrespectful.  There are a lot of different training environments; some are stricter than others, some are more military than others.  Possibly folks in the real military, whether in the US or England, don't find it necessary to imitate a drill instructor and recruits...

If the shots keep up -- the mod hat goes on, and nobody really wants that...


----------



## Steve

Just a couple of comments on the tangent.  I'm going to have to take some time to go back and read through the last several posts more carefully, because I'm frankly not too sure what happened.  

On respect.  First, I believe that there is an important distinction between _respecting_ someone and treating someone _with respect _(or respectfully). Whether or not I respect you comes from you.  It's something that stems from your character and your behavior and is unique to you.  In a room full of people, I can hold each person in greater or lesser esteem based upon my personal interactions with them.  

How I treat people and how I react to rules stems entirely from me.  I may not like a rule, but it's up to me to respect it.  I may not like you or respect you, but it's entirely up to me whether or not I treat you with respect.   I may not like a person, but if he and I have an appointment and I am late, I am being disrespectful _whether or not I respect him.  
_
This isn't an American usage of the word.  I'm pretty sure that this is common to any English speaking country. 
So, in a class where someone breaks a rule and is expected to do pushups, I have no problem with it.  It falls into the respect for the rules, respect for the culture of the school and respect for (in some cases) the time and attention of the other students in the class.

We have a rule at our school.  If you show up late for class, you do ropes: one rep per minute you're late.  

In the school, however, respect for each other is much more organic and individual.  I respect my coach because he is knowledgeable, skilled and an all around decent guy, for example.


----------



## Tez3

jks9199 said:


> Hey, everybody...
> 
> Let's back off a bit, OK? I don't think anyone here was trying to be insulting or disrespectful. There are a lot of different training environments; some are stricter than others, some are more military than others. Possibly folks in the real military, whether in the US or England, don't find it necessary to imitate a drill instructor and recruits...
> 
> If the shots keep up -- the mod hat goes on, and nobody really wants that...




 We are a military club, our civilian students take their behaviour from our military students. Respect means to *us* exactly what I said it does. I said that was what it meant to *us*, not you, not anyone else ... to us. I used war heroes as an example because that's who I train with. I said we were talking at cross purposes and attempted to find common ground. 

Kaygee, if you read the comments to me you will find I was being lectured on the American 'way' so don't have a go at me,* your *misconstruing my comments started this argument in the first place. 

Anyway, enough already.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Tez3 said:


> We are a military club, our civilian students take their behaviour from our military students. Respect means to *us* exactly what I said it does. I said that was what it meant to *us*, not you, not anyone else ... to us. I used war heroes as an example because that's who I train with. I said we were talking at cross purposes and attempted to find common ground.
> 
> Kaygee, if you read the comments to me you will find I was being lectured on the American 'way' so don't have a go at me,* your *misconstruing my comments started this argument in the first place.
> 
> Anyway, enough already.


I'm almost positive, English people understand the term, respect, to mean, "adhere to" when put in that context. This isn't a lecture. Its a word you can look up.
Sean


----------



## Kaygee

Tez3 said:


> We are a military club, our civilian students take their behaviour from our military students. Respect means to *us* exactly what I said it does. I said that was what it meant to *us*, not you, not anyone else ... to us. I used war heroes as an example because that's who I train with. I said we were talking at cross purposes and attempted to find common ground.
> 
> Kaygee, if you read the comments to me you will find I was being lectured on the American 'way' so don't have a go at me,* your *misconstruing my comments started this argument in the first place.
> 
> Anyway, enough already.



No reason to keep bringing this stuff up man. The minute you responded to my original post in the negative manner that you did, my inbox filled up with people warning me about you and your trolling ways. So at this point, it is expected, and nothing you say has any credibility to me.

But we should part ways in peace....it is the Tang Soo Do way!
Tang Soo!


----------



## harlan

Been thinking more on the 'respect', as it might apply to the type of martial arts training I've been exposed to (limited) and musing about the whole 'martial' aspect. Being primarily interested in kobudo, I don't have a problem with the 'east-west' thing for *my *training. (It should be obvious, but in case it isn't, this implies that I understand others have different paths.)

 I brought up 'rei' before, and thought this link might be useful to rounding out the context.

http://www.umich.edu/~umkendo/kendo.html


----------



## Bob Hubbard

*For the record, Tez is not considered a troll on this site by it's staff or owner.  Tez brings a British Military perspective, which is often poorly grasped by American's. If your inbox is filling up with warnings about any long time member, you might want to pause and research why someone might be saying that. It's often more "I got into an argument with them in another thread" that real trolling.  Real trolls tend to last less than 6 months, not 6+ years.  Every member brings something to the table here.  Regarding Tez, while I have not agreed with her on every subject, I will state publicly that her participation on this site is welcome and appreciated.

As is the participation of all of our members who act within our rules.

Which all involved might wish to review before things get uglier.
K?

Danke.

:asian:*


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## ETinCYQX

For people that are so hung up on "respect", a lot of people here have been openly disrespectful and rude to a valued member here and I believe a TSD Dan holder (or is that granfire I'm thinking of?)

Respect is earned, not given. You're right to expect courtesy from potential students but if your self-confidence is so easily damaged maybe the martial arts are not for you. I suspect a lot of "respect" and "discipline" in the martial arts today is used to prop up egos rather than build character or teach more effectively.


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## Tez3

Kaygee said:


> No reason to keep bringing this stuff up man. The minute you responded to my original post in the negative manner that you did, my inbox filled up with people warning me about you and your trolling ways. So at this point, it is expected, and nothing you say has any credibility to me.
> 
> But we should part ways in peace....it is the Tang Soo Do way!
> Tang Soo!



So informing you about Iain Abernethy was trolling then. Asking you questions was trolling too? You saw my post as negative you also got sarcastic about the members here not I. I have enjoy what they have to say even when they disagree with me, in fact espeically when they disagree with me, I wouldn't stay here if I didn't. Discussions get heated here, martial arts people are passionate about what they do. 

You cannot make a comment then not expect me to answer then say why are you bringing this up, doesn't work like that. Oh and please don't call me man 

Bob thank you very much I appreciate it XX


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## Tez3

ETinCYQX said:


> For people that are so hung up on "respect", a lot of people here have been openly disrespectful and rude to a valued member here and I believe a TSD Dan holder (or is that granfire I'm thinking of?)
> 
> Respect is earned, not given. You're right to expect courtesy from potential students but if your self-confidence is so easily damaged maybe the martial arts are not for you. I suspect a lot of "respect" and "discipline" in the martial arts today is used to prop up egos rather than build character or teach more effectively.




Yes, I'm TSD Dan grade and Wado Ryu 1st Kyu, thank you too. Much appreciated.


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## Touch Of Death

ETinCYQX said:


> For people that are so hung up on "respect", a lot of people here have been openly disrespectful and rude to a valued member here and I believe a TSD Dan holder (or is that granfire I'm thinking of?)
> 
> Respect is earned, not given. You're right to expect courtesy from potential students but if your self-confidence is so easily damaged maybe the martial arts are not for you. I suspect a lot of "respect" and "discipline" in the martial arts today is used to prop up egos rather than build character or teach more effectively.


Maybe it has always been about that. Maybe not.


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## Tez3

I gather some people don't like robust opinions. As someone else posted up here martial arts people tend to be Type As so on MT you will gt strong opinions and the people that hold them tend to be outgoing, not shrinking violets. I live in Yorkshire where plain speaking is valued, i'm also used to the military way of saying what you mean without dressing it up, I do speak plainly and I will put my name to my opinions, I'm sorry if people who don't agree take it personally, it isn't meant that. I do dislike people though who like to give their opinion anonymously, it's cowardly but there you are.

this is us and one of my local pubs.http://www.sunriseag.net/adoptapub/more/0027VictoriaArmsWorton.htm
_"The residents of the Dales, or Dales Folk, speak plainly and economically. They will not invite you to dinner unless they genuinely mean to extend a real invitation. More often, they will simply not invite you, unless they have gotten to know you over the course of say three or four years._
_But trust a Yorkshireman. They mean what they say, on those rare occasions they actually say anything. Ask a question, and you can expect an honest answer, even though the answer will be lacking in embellishment. "

_You may not like me, you may not like what I say but I'm honest, I don't play games and I don't hide behind anonymity.


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> I gather some people don't like robust opinions. As someone else posted up here martial arts people tend to be Type As so on MT you will gt strong opinions and the people that hold them tend to be outgoing, not shrinking violets. I live in Yorkshire where plain speaking is valued, i'm also used to the military way of saying what you mean without dressing it up, I do speak plainly and I will put my name to my opinions, I'm sorry if people who don't agree take it personally, it isn't meant that. I do dislike people though who like to give their opinion anonymously, it's cowardly but there you are.
> 
> this is us and one of my local pubs.
> _"The residents of the Dales, or Dales Folk, speak plainly and economically. They will not invite you to dinner unless they genuinely mean to extend a real invitation. More often, they will simply not invite you, unless they have gotten to know you over the course of say three or four years._
> _But trust a Yorkshireman. They mean what they say, on those rare occasions they actually say anything. Ask a question, and you can expect an honest answer, even though the answer will be lacking in embellishment. "
> 
> _You may not like me, you may not like what I say but I'm honest, I don't play games and I don't hide behind anonymity.


I must have been a Yorkshireman in a past life.


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## Tez3

Steve said:


> I must have been a Yorkshireman in a past life.




My other half is Yorkshire, ask him what is religion is and he'll tell you he's a Yorkshireman! Plain speaking is prized here, read All Creatures Great and Small or watch the videos!


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## Tez3

harlan said:


> Been thinking more on the 'respect', as it might apply to the type of martial arts training I've been exposed to (limited) and musing about the whole 'martial' aspect. Being primarily interested in kobudo, I don't have a problem with the 'east-west' thing for *my *training. (It should be obvious, but in case it isn't, this implies that I understand others have different paths.)
> 
> I brought up 'rei' before, and thought this link might be useful to rounding out the context.
> 
> http://www.umich.edu/~umkendo/kendo.html




this from your link explains far better what I was trying to say.

[SIZE=-1]"The reason why I believe that this is an imprecise translation is that in our American culture, we have no tradition of "showing respect". When we use the word "respect", we as Americans often say "I respect you" or "You have earned my respect". _There is an implicit understanding that "respect" is a internal_, _personal, and private valuation given to a person after a particular event or __occurence_. As Americans, we value respect highly, guard it jealously, and seldom give it. Indeed there is almost no greater compliment in our culture than to say "You have earned my respect"."

As instructors we expect courtesy and good manners, ie no talking when we do, turning up on time and apologies if you can't etc etc. We don't expect respect, that has to be earned. [/SIZE]


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