# Should I stick with my Kung Fu school?



## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi All,

Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:

1) I feel like Im not learning how to deliver powerful strikes: our instructor is not a fan of 'overpowering' your opponent, but using leverage, still, I sometimes feel like at least hitting a bag or something.

2) A lot of what we're learning has questionable usefulness: a lot of our time is spent learning to fight with weapons, which is cool, but I cant help asking myself, 'when am I ever going to need to fight with a sword?'

3) Learning so much that I cant remember it all/ dont get to apply it: There is so much to learn in our style, that Im constantly getting new info, without having fully absorbed the old info. The problem is though that the class is not designed to go into great depths about REALLY learning a certain move, because theres always the next thing to learn.

4) I have doubts about how prepared I would actually be for a real street encounter. Its not that the content is not there, its just that its not taught 'in your face' enough for me to remember it in a panic situation i think.

So my questions for you all are:

1) For those that have studied/ are studying kung fu, did you ever reach a point where you felt VERY confident about your ability to defend yourself in a fight?

2) Am I just going through typical newbie growing pains or are these signs that this style not right for me and I should think about switching schools?

Thanks in advance.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 1, 2010)

Respectfully, my only question is this:
In 8 months, have you learned so much as to question the style you're studying or do you just have questions?


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## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 1, 2010)

Im not so much questioning the content of the style as the method in which its being taught.

I was curious to see if those who have studied kung fu would say 'thats fairly typical as kung fu is a very complex system' or 'thats an ineffective way of teaching the style and youre wasting your time'

I feel like there are a lot of great techniques to learn at my school, but we also spend a lot of time on techniques Im not interested in, and not enough time focusing enough on either to really let them sink in.

I feel like Im watching a great movie on fast forward.


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## clfsean (Apr 1, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:



8 Months... look at the length of time that isn't... but you're justified in asking questions to be sure.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 1) I feel like Im not learning how to deliver powerful strikes: our instructor is not a fan of 'overpowering' your opponent, but using leverage, still, I sometimes feel like at least hitting a bag or something.



There should be some kind of contact. If there's not, there's a question for certain. How do you practice "leveraging" your opponent/partner without making contact? Then again... 8 months... 

Do you see senior students making any contact?



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 2) A lot of what we're learning has questionable usefulness: a lot of our time is spent learning to fight with weapons, which is cool, but I cant help asking myself, 'when am I ever going to need to fight with a sword?'



Weapons are integral to TCMA. Part & parcel. However 8 months is kinda soon for a newb for weapons.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 3) Learning so much that I cant remember it all/ dont get to apply it: There is so much to learn in our style, that Im constantly getting new info, without having fully absorbed the old info. The problem is though that the class is not designed to go into great depths about REALLY learning a certain move, because theres always the next thing to learn.



**BUZZ** If you haven't gotten the basics because there's constant movement forward... either 2 things... 1) you're not practicing hard enough, or 2) it's not being taught properly. 

I'm not trying to sound insulting, so I'm going with "I DON'T KNOW" for your class, but those are the two main indicators I've experienced & will leave you to place yourself.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 4) I have doubts about how prepared I would actually be for a real street encounter. Its not that the content is not there, its just that its not taught 'in your face' enough for me to remember it in a panic situation i think.



See above... 

So my questions for you all are:



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 1) For those that have studied/ are studying kung fu, did you ever reach a point where you felt VERY confident about your ability to defend yourself in a fight?



Yep... only after basics were absorbed, drilled, practiced, felt & used. Like anything... 



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 2) Am I just going through typical newbie growing pains or are these signs that this style not right for me and I should think about switching schools?



Yes.... but not without cause or grounds.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2010)

There are GREAT variations between styles

Here is my usual link to show you just a bit of what you are saying when you say "Kung Fu"... there is no typical for Kung Fu


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## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 1, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are GREAT variations between styles
> 
> Here is my usual link to show you just a bit of what you are saying when you say "Kung Fu"... there is no typical for Kung Fu



Im sorry, Its an 8-animal Shaolin style. For each level we learn a couple forms, a couple weapons, and several self defense moves.

I practice a lot and my Sifu complements me on how well Im doing, but I'll learn a self defense only to never see it again (I know 8 months isnt that long).

More than anything, I just really want to pressure test what Im learning, but its not happening. Its like I know the moves (ie the sequence of movements), but I dont feel like I KNOW the moves. And I understand that only comes with time and practice, but at my school I havent seen any activities that would pressure test the moves to drill them into me, and hence I dont feel confident that I could apply these moves in an emergency. And its that confidence that I want most.

My biggest fear is that I get several years down the line with this style and still feel the same.

But again, Im inexperienced, so thats why im asking all of you for opinions. I just want to make sure that Im being provided the tools I need to succeed.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2010)

8 months is not that long, most CMA takes time, and somes styles take longer than others

However if you are looking for pressure testing and quicker learning of MA applications you may want to look to something Sanshou.


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## jks9199 (Apr 1, 2010)

Discuss your concerns with your instructor.  It may be that you're not hitting pads or bags yet because you still aren't getting proper body alignment and will get hurt, for example.

Especially discuss feeling overwhelmed; it's often tempting for a teacher with a wealth of knowledge to try to share too much, and one person I know has compared training sessions like that to drinking from a fire hose.  The thing about that sort of training is that it's great if you have time to work on the material and figure it out & develop it... but it's no good if you don't get to work it in.  Imagine if someone set you down on day 1 of a college course, and gave you all 40 or so hours of instruction... non-stop!


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## geezer (Apr 1, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> I've been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it...


 
Fair questions all. The classic response is that you haven't been training long enough to really be able to answer these questions yet. On the other hand I think that after eight months of serious training, you deserve answers to these questions. Back in the 70's, I trained at a Shaolin Kung -Fu school for about a year and a half and came up against the very same questions. I later found out that I was not alone. Many of these questions are part of a debate about styles and training methods that has gone on in the martial arts, including traditional Chinese martial arts, for centuries.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 1) I feel like I'm not learning how to deliver powerful strikes: our instructor is not a fan of 'overpowering' your opponent, but using leverage, still, I sometimes feel like at least hitting a bag or something.


 
Getting good power in your strikes is _absolutely essential_ and is not the same as "overpowering your opponent" with brute force. That said, many of the "softer" systems train you to develope a very relaxed type of power that is not at all rigid and tense. Developing this kind of energy takes a good deal of patience and time. Rushing the process and trying "too hard" to get a lot of power in a hurry can definitely be counterproductive. Still, if you don't see evidence of good power generation demonstrated by the instructor and senior students or si-hings, I'd say that is a big red flag! 



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 2) A lot of what we're learning has questionable usefulness: a lot of our time is spent learning to fight with weapons, which is cool, but I cant help asking myself, 'when am I ever going to need to fight with a sword?'


 
Weapons training can be very useful or just a pretty dance depending on how it's done. If it is taught as a means of helping you build good body movement, form, focus, power, and so forth... that's useful in developing _all _your martial skills. If you are taught how to translate your techniques from classical martial arts weapons to _improvised weapons_ and empty hands... well, that's _very_ useful too. On the other hand if it's taught primarily as an art form, then the most you'll get is some conditioning, flexibility, and coordination training. Not bad, but not the most direct path to fighting skiills.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 3)* Learning so much that I can't remember it all/* dont get to apply it: There is so much to learn in our style, that Im constantly getting new info, without having fully absorbed the old info. The problem is though that the class is not designed to go into great depths about REALLY learning a certain move, because theres always the next thing to learn.


 
This is a _huge_ problem with some martial arts systems, especially some classical kung-fu systems, depending on your _personal learning style_. I've met people with incredible ability to memorize forms and movements. I don't have that ability. I prefer to learn basic concepts and movements really well, then develop more and more ways to apply them. Realizing this about myself was a big part of my decision to switch styles.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 4) I have doubts about how prepared I would actually be for a real street encounter. Its not that the content is not there, its just that its not taught 'in your face' enough for me to remember it in a panic situation i think.


 
If you are being taught a lot of elaborate sequences whose applications you don't understand, or _can't apply under stress_, then this is a very good question indeed. Even in the little YMCA class I teach just twice a week, I try to make sure that at the end of a couple of months, students have essential techniques that _can_ be applied effectively under stress. But then that's part of what I value. Every school is different.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> So my questions for you all are:
> 
> 1) For those that have studied/ are studying kung fu, did you ever reach a point where you felt VERY confident about your ability to defend yourself in a fight?


 
_Heck yes!_ But I switched from an elaborate, complicated system to a very practical branch of Wing Chun that emphasizes this. For weapons, I train a pragmatic branch of Escrima, and everything we do is designed to translate to a variety of improvised weapons, and empty-handed applications as well. So again, practicality is part of the philosophy.



flowOfTheCentury said:


> 2) Am I just going through typical newbie growing pains or are these signs that this style not right for me and I should think about switching schools?


 
Again, thes are very important questions. _Talk to your instructor_, think about what you are learning, look at other schools if you want to... eventually, you will have to make up your own mind. There are so many kinds or training out there. None are worth a damn if you don't stick with them, but on the other hand, you don't want to stick with something that doesn't work _for you_ for years and years either. Good luck in your search.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Im sorry, Its an 8-animal Shaolin style. For each level we learn a couple forms, a couple weapons, and several self defense moves.
> 
> I practice a lot and my Sifu complements me on how well Im doing, but I'll learn a self defense only to never see it again (I know 8 months isnt that long).
> 
> ...


 
Question: After you are shown all this do you train it outside of class or do you only train in class?


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## yak sao (Apr 1, 2010)

You have valid questions.

As already stated, 8 months is a short time. Look at who's ahead of you. Not just the "black belts", but look at the brown belts. By that level they should be pretty tough and able to generate good power and show a defimte fighting ability.

I feel your pain. I studied a shaolin kung fu style for 14 years and still sometimes questioned my overall fighting ability. Sure I looked good doing forms, could generate power and spar, but I felt something was missing.That's when I decided to switch to another kung fu style that was known as a fighting style. That was 15 years ago...best thing I could have done.


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## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 1, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Question: After you are shown all this do you train it outside of class or do you only train in class?



Yes, I practice all the time at home. Weapons and forms. I practice the self defense moves too, but its just with air. I will say that I can do the forms definitely above average, this is the one thing my Sifu and fellow students say I do very well, and I would attribute that to home practice.



geezer said:


> Getting good power in your strikes is _absolutely essential_ and is not the same as "overpowering your opponent" with brute force. That said, many of the "softer" systems train you to develope a very relaxed type of power that is not at all rigid and tense. Developing this kind of energy takes a good deal of patience and time. Rushing the process and trying "too hard" to get a lot of power in a hurry can definitely be counterproductive. Still, if you don't see evidence of good power generation demonstrated by the instructor and senior students or si-hings, I'd say that is a big red flag!



See, this is one of my concerns then. There are no pads/punching bags in our class not even hanging on the wall. We do have a Wing Chun dummy, but thats it. In my eight months in class, we've never done a punching drill, we've done some kicking drills, but that was more for balance and only in the air. Also, Ive never seen my Sifu instruct our senior students on punching either. The most physical we get is a sparring session once a week. I will say that it does get pretty physical and tiring, but still, our Sifu doesnt get nearly as involved in sparring as he does in regular class. Hes even said that he doesnt really like sparring/ like to spar, even though when Ive seen him spar, he looks fairly competent.

I think it all comes from our Sifu being a more peaceful passive person, which theres nothing wrong with, its just that I wish he would put a little more mustard on his lessons.


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## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 1, 2010)

yak sao said:


> As already stated, 8 months is a short time. Look at who's ahead of you. Not just the "black belts", but look at the brown belts. By that level they should be pretty tough and able to generate good power and show a defimte fighting ability.



And thats another thing too, while our class is fairly small, the impression I get from our advanced/intermediate students is just 'meh'. They honestly seem just like me only theyve memorized more forms than me.

When I spar with the advanced students, (and Im not trying to be egotistical here) I feel that theyre only marginally better than me. I never feel like theyre dangerous or holding much back on me either. Obviously theyre better, but not brown-belt-better. There are students who are better, but I honestly feel that its more because of their natural athleticism, than combat skills theyve picked up in class.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 1, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Im sorry, Its an 8-animal Shaolin style.


 
Does it have a name?


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## wushuguy (Apr 1, 2010)

traditionally in cma i think hitting a wall bag or punching bag, etc isn't needed to train for stronger hitting. there are some cma that have it, but many just work with what they have, often times it's no gear. take for example, some internal martial arts practitioners, many do not use a wall bag or hanging bag for training, yet they can hit quite strong. same with shaolin i believe. there are other ways of strengthening your body and increasing your hitting power.

also, knowing that you're doing shaolin, it will have weapons, and from what i've seen, lots of emphasis on forms. if it's not doing good for you, you can always supplement training on your own, or find a different martial art that is more in line with what you are looking for. that said, there's no fast martial art, they will all take time to get good at. some seem to be practical faster, such as wing chun which can be seen as practical in a short time, but to get really good at it, still takes years of practice.


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## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 1, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> Does it have a name?



It does, but I dont want to write it here, because its his own name for the style, and googling it only returns our school. So for that I dont want to associate a quasi-complaint thread with the school name in case it ever shows up on a search result.

I can give you details about the style though if you want.


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## wushuguy (Apr 1, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> And thats another thing too, while our class is fairly small, the impression I get from our advanced/intermediate students is just 'meh'. They honestly seem just like me only theyve memorized more forms than me.
> 
> When I spar with the advanced students, (and Im not trying to be egotistical here) I feel that theyre only marginally better than me. I never feel like theyre dangerous or holding much back on me either. Obviously theyre better, but not brown-belt-better. There are students who are better, but I honestly feel that its more because of their natural athleticism, than combat skills theyve picked up in class.




I've had similar experience before, when i was taking some kung fu classes on the east coast. the students even didn't think their sifu knew the principles or meanings behind certain techniques... and with a little bit of effort, it was possible to trap them up and have advantageous positions, but that is because the focus of most of them was not learning to fight, but they just liked doing kung fu. not all were like that though, but most were. In that situation, i only stayed as long as i did because the sifu could explain things to me clearly and helped my understanding a lot, but the sifu was usually not teaching, the highest ranking student usually taught.


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## mook jong man (Apr 1, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:
> 
> ...


 
I reckon you should probably leave , its obvious that the place is not meeting your needs .

After 8 months you should at least have a bit of confidence that you would be effective in a street situation.

Some styles just have way too many techniques and too many forms , its questionable as to whether you would be able to respond by reflex if you have endless repetitions of abstract technique combinations and forms running around in your head.

Or if you feel that you really must train there then just take a few of the moves that you feel would be most applicable to self defence on the street and practice the hell out of them.

Grab a friend , get some focus mitts , a kick shield , and do some power training and sparring outside of school hours.


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## Hawke (Apr 1, 2010)

Do you have friends or family that study a different martial art?  Maybe they can demonstrate some self defense techniques.

Ever thought of visiting other schools?   See their self defense techniques.

About punching air.  This may not give you the feed back you are looking for.  If you punch bare knuckle on a punching bag (medium strength, do not go full power) you will notice marks on your knuckles.  This will give you an idea if you are punching correctly for your style.  Some schools use the first two knuckles, others use the middle two knuckles.  I personally prefer a relaxed open hand.

How do you spar?  Do you spar with gear or no gear?  Do you spar for points or go two minute rounds?  Full contact?  If you never been hit you might be in for a surprise.

If by chance you live in the Los Angeles area send me a PM and we can do some training.


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 2, 2010)

I'll give you my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth.

1.  I agree with those that say that 8 months is probably too early to develop any real confidence in a street defense situation, especially if you have no prior fighting experience.

2.  I agree that you should look at the upper ranks, people who've been training steadily for 4-5 years.  If they look competent, and you love the art, then stick around.  If they look lame, leave.

3.  Bear in mind that some very effective martial arts don't really focus on practicing specific "powerful strikes."  Power and efficacy come from many places:  speed, timing, leverage, balance, awareness. I'm not familiar with the philosophy of your specific art, but bagua and tai chi, for example, are very effective, even powerful, but you don't specifically practice power moves.

4.  If you personally are interested _primarily _in power or self-defense, you might consider a different art, krav maga or some kind of karate.

Good luck. I hope you'll let us know what you decide.


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## rune katana (Apr 2, 2010)

We all train for different reasons.  Some train for self defense, some train for fitness, others train for competition, etc.  If you are looking to study more practical self defense methods, perhaps another school or another style is what you need.  As others have said, look at others ahead of you in belt rankings, and see what they are working on.  You can see the future progression of yourself this way.  If you don't like what you see, look around for something else.

I've been studying Kajukenbo for about a year now, so not too much longer than you've been studying at your school.  Kaju is all about self defense on the street as well as developing core physical fitness.  Check out a Kajukenbo school if you can, you might like it, since it focuses more on self defense and strikes/takedowns yet also has forms.  Plus, kung fu is one of the styles of Kajukenbo.  

Best of luck!


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## kaizasosei (Apr 2, 2010)

Your first schools teach you the most if not some important basics.  Special times.  I would treasure them even if you move on for example when i took a few classes at temple kungfu as youngster.  The main reason for quiting was that it was too expensive.  But i felt i learned quite a bit and that it gave me a good idea of what i needed to do alone. 

Weapons i see as a great opportinity, but memorizing form after form i find tedious sometimes too. As it was said, everyone will be looking for somewhat different things.


j


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## SensibleManiac (Apr 2, 2010)

Where are you located? There might be other more suitable styles for you in your area.

Why don't you go check out some other styles and see if there is something else out there that might be more for you?

It seems where you are at isn't meeting your needs and if you aren't enjoying it, then you will most likely end up quiting so you're better to go.


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## flowOfTheCentury (Apr 5, 2010)

Thanks everyone for your input. Ive decided to check out a few other schools in my area with more of an emphasis on pressure testing the material taught. If I can find what I want somewhere else, I'll make the change. Nothing against Kung Fu though, its a great style, just not what Im looking for right now. I would still like to return to it one day as I think there is a lot of value to what is taught, but I think Im needing a more concise style as a beginner.


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## clfsean (Apr 5, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Thanks everyone for your input. Ive decided to check out a few other schools in my area with more of an emphasis on pressure testing the material taught. If I can find what I want somewhere else, I'll make the change. Nothing against Kung Fu though, its a great style, just not what Im looking for right now. I would still like to return to it one day as I think there is a lot of value to what is taught, but I think Im needing a more concise style as a beginner.



It's understandable, but honestly as a beginner, any martial art is perfectly capable of giving you what you're after,_ if the instructor is capable of teaching it properly_. That's the whole thing right there. Hopefully you can find the teacher that can teach you properly. 

Let the pieces fall where they may.


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## Golden Harvest (May 20, 2010)

Having doubts is not good.

You should have a chat with your teacher and let him know of your interest in the practical self defense aspect of Gung Fu?

If you are not happy with his response, you should look elswhere or even a different martial art style.  

Since your desire is to learn how to fight in eight months, I recommend Wing Chun Gung Fu.  This style is all about fighting and the science of fighting.  You could become an effective fighter within a short time.  It's very effective and practical.

Good luck on your decision.

Regards.


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## Kyosanim (May 20, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:
> 
> ...







I do not do Gung Fu, but I do know that every person has their Ideal learning format, and if it all goes to fast for you ask your sifu to work on somethings one on one. It may be his teaching style does not match your learning style, but don't jump the gun. Talk to him first.


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## Mark Jordan (May 24, 2010)

I suggest discussing your concern with your instructor.  You should also give yourself some more time -  8 months is too short, so be patient. 

See if you can sit in on some other kung fu classes and compare. If you can speak with the head instructor, try get a feel for their teaching style....


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## ap Oweyn (May 28, 2010)

Eight months is absolutely _not_ too soon to be feeling like you can throw a punch with authority.  The broader question of whether you can handle yourself in a fight is a different matter.  But you're well within your rights to be asking this sort of question.  Training in a martial art does require some level of trust in your trainers.  But don't let that relationship substitute for your common sense.

I think you've got a couple of options here.  I can completely relate to that feeling that a class is trying to cover too many topics.  The class becomes about _conveying information_ rather than _internalizing a method_.  And that's a problem.  The answer, regrettably, isn't as simple as "practice more."

You could find another school or style.  Something that addresses fewer things, but trains those things rigorously enough for you to feel that you _own them_.  

Alternatively, if you want to stay where you are, consider how you use your solo practice time.  If you believe that the forms and weapon practice are of questionable use to you, then take the practice times that _you control_ and focus in on the other things.  You could easily spend a full practice session (or multiple sessions) just grooving a simple transition from punch to round kick, for instance.  And it's precisely that sort of practice that's going to make you feel like you own that combination.

There are lots of tiny little variables in terms of timing, angle, footwork, etc. that can improve on even the most fundamental techniques.  A person can spend a lifetime perfecting boxing, for instance.  And that's, what, five punches, some evasions, and a bit of footwork.  But it's not the breadth of technique that makes it effective.  It's the mastery of nuance.  What sets a Sugar Ray Leonard apart from another boxer?  Mastery of those small variations.  Not using additional techniques.

It sounds like you're talented enough that you can afford not to devote your personal training time to forms all the time.  So use that time to address your own questions.  At the very least, doing so will help you clarify the questions you're asking.

There may also be fundamental problems with the teaching here.  I don't know.  But when you say that, each level, you learn a couple of forms and a couple of weapons, I balk.  People spend lifetimes mastering _one weapon_.  Dropping two on you every few months is a recipe for mediocrity.  And that doesn't even address the actual _need_ for these weapons.

Like Geezer, I'm an FMA guy.  We start with weapons.  But that makes more sense to me because of the universality of weapons in FMA.  Club, knife, bigger club, bigger knife, flexible weapon, etc.  You can get some more specialized weapons in FMA.  But very often, the concepts of a given weapon translate pretty readily to the sorts of things you could lay your hands on in a pinch.

In any event, keep your eyes open.  Don't just accept that it'll come with time.  Or it's just your inability to make it work.  Or any of that.  Keep asking questions of yourself.  Whatever that feeling is, it isn't unjustified.  And it isn't to be ignored.  Don't make a nuisance of yourself at the school.  But know that you have the right to move on if you're not getting what you want from your training experience.


Stuart


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## jks9199 (May 28, 2010)

ap Oweyn said:


> Alternatively, if you want to stay where you are, consider how you use your solo practice time.  If you believe that the forms and weapon practice are of questionable use to you, then take the practice times that _you control_ and focus in on the other things.  You could easily spend a full practice session (or multiple sessions) just grooving a simple transition from punch to round kick, for instance.  And it's precisely that sort of practice that's going to make you feel like you own that combination.
> 
> There are lots of tiny little variables in terms of timing, angle, footwork, etc. that can improve on even the most fundamental techniques.  A person can spend a lifetime perfecting boxing, for instance.  And that's, what, five punches, some evasions, and a bit of footwork.  But it's not the breadth of technique that makes it effective.  It's the mastery of nuance.  What sets a Sugar Ray Leonard apart from another boxer?  Mastery of those small variations.  Not using additional techniques.


Great advice.  It's often impractical in a class session to really get enough practice in.  As an instructor, I'm trying to teach certain things or accomplish certain goals in each class.  I have to expect students to take time on their own to work more with the lessons.  It's kind of like doing the homework in math class; I learned the hard way that, in a math class, I couldn't do just the assigned problems.  I had to do EVERY problem in the book, and I'm not alone!



> There may also be fundamental problems with the teaching here.  I don't know.  But when you say that, each level, you learn a couple of forms and a couple of weapons, I balk.  People spend lifetimes mastering _one weapon_.  Dropping two on you every few months is a recipe for mediocrity.  And that doesn't even address the actual _need_ for these weapons.



It depends.  It depends on how you define "form", among other things.  Is a set drill or sequence a "form"?  I teach 5 to 6 drills, and you can easily learn those over several months.  I could even teach a new student all the basic forms in my system in about a year, year and half (or even less, really), if they trained hard and worked hard on them.  We just don't have that much... THERE.  But to really learn and understand them?  That'd take years more practice.


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## ap Oweyn (May 28, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> It depends. It depends on how you define "form", among other things. Is a set drill or sequence a "form"? I teach 5 to 6 drills, and you can easily learn those over several months. I could even teach a new student all the basic forms in my system in about a year, year and half (or even less, really), if they trained hard and worked hard on them. We just don't have that much... THERE. But to really learn and understand them? That'd take years more practice.


 
Oh, I don't have any particular problem with the introduction of two forms per belt.  But two weapons.  Even two weapon forms is fair enough, I suppose.  But the idea that you've learnt two weapons per belt level...

You could spend years and years just getting a basic handle on broadsword technique.  But because there are 18 (or whatever) classical Chinese weapons, there's this constant impetus to drop a new one into the mix.


Stuart


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## repz (May 31, 2010)

To the OP, what are you learning now?


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## Yondanchris (Aug 3, 2010)

one thing off the bat, 

  Learn Humility and Patience, that will solve 90% of these problems. 

1) you could get a bag for at home or go to a gym to practice your punches on a bag. I think the instructor if focusing on technique at this point in your training. 

2) weapons training is more useful than you can imagine, it tones muscles and gives you an awareness of your body you did not know before. You train your body with new "arms" and "Legs" to become a new extension of yourself. Weapons are an excellent training tool. Perhaps you should look into training with Escrima (very practical) 

3) It is true that group classes are not normally designed to teach material but to re-enforce learned material, also instructors expect students to practice on their own to develop and master skills. 
Perhaps you should talk to your Sifu about "private lessons" thats the way I learned and became proficient in each belt level. 

4) have you thought about doing competitions, especially point sparring
I think that would give you a good "live action" feel to your training in a controlled environment, while giving you the immediate adrenaline rush your looking for. 

Overall this is extremely common, and I would suggest you voice your 
concerns to your Sifu and talk them out. Most Kenpo students leave after 
about a year due to lack of patience or humility. Evaluate your reasons for taking lessons versus the benefits of the lessons and make your decision after talking with your Sifu. 

My .02 cents, 

Chris 




flowOfTheCentury said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:
> 
> ...


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## ap Oweyn (Aug 4, 2010)

Nidanchris said:


> one thing off the bat,
> 
> Learn Humility and Patience, that will solve 90% of these problems.


 
That's the thing though.  The idea that patience and humility are the solution is predicated on the idea that it's basically _impossible_ to teach martial arts poorly. 

Clearly, it's possible to teach poorly.  So the onus may not necessarily be upon the student to "just hang in there" until things become clear.  My feeling is that not asking questions leads to tacit acceptance.  And I don't want that as a teacher.



> 1) you could get a bag for at home or go to a gym to practice your punches on a bag. I think the instructor if focusing on technique at this point in your training.


 
I think this is part of the problem though.  If actually hitting something isn't included in the teaching of technique, how good can the technique be?  It's no wonder that people begin to worry about whether they can use something.  Even if their technique _is_ good, they have no empirical experience upon which to base their confidence.



> 2) weapons training is more useful than you can imagine, it tones muscles and gives you an awareness of your body you did not know before. You train your body with new "arms" and "Legs" to become a new extension of yourself. Weapons are an excellent training tool. Perhaps you should look into training with Escrima (very practical)


 
Can't argue with that (as an eskrima advocate).



> 3) It is true that group classes are not normally designed to teach material but to re-enforce learned material, also instructors expect students to practice on their own to develop and master skills.
> Perhaps you should talk to your Sifu about "private lessons" thats the way I learned and became proficient in each belt level.


 
If classes aren't designed to teach new material, then what is?  Personal training isn't, because you don't have experienced supervision.  That leaves private lessons, which are typically an additional (and not inconsiderable) cost.  I think some classes absolutely ought to be designed to introduce new material.  But they ought to be part of a continuum toward internalization of the material.



> 4) have you thought about doing competitions, especially point sparring
> I think that would give you a good "live action" feel to your training in a controlled environment, while giving you the immediate adrenaline rush your looking for.


 
I wouldn't advocate a sparring contest if you don't already have confidence that your training is leading to proficiency.  There's that saying that you don't rise to your expectations.  You fall to your training.  And it's unlikely that your performance is going to impress you very much in a high-pressure tournament if it's not doing so in regular training.



> Overall this is extremely common, and I would suggest you voice your
> concerns to your Sifu and talk them out. Most Kenpo students leave after
> about a year due to lack of patience or humility. Evaluate your reasons for taking lessons versus the benefits of the lessons and make your decision after talking with your Sifu.


 
I definitely agree with talking to the sifu.  We need to lay to rest, once and for all, the idea that asking questions is somehow disrespectful or inappropriate.  Personally, as a teacher, I find it much more hurtful that someone would think they can't ask me questions, either because I might make them feel stupid for it or because they're concerned I can't handle being questioned.  

If I can't handle being asked questions, it doesn't seem likely that I have any answers worth hearing.

Just my view.


Stuart


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## xfighter88 (Dec 19, 2010)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:
> 
> ...


 
I don't personally do Kung Fu, but I had a very similar experience with a Taekwondo School that focused on sport tkd over the more self defense oriented parts. First off I would meet with your instructor and voice your concerns. If his answers don't satisfy you then you have some choices: Stay, go, or stay and go. If you are really feeling the need for self defense then search out a place that focuses on that (Krav Maga comes to mind). If you still love doing Kung Fu but just want some self defense work do both. Take a self defense seminar, get some Self defense DVDs and play around with the stuff. You could even sign up at another dojo along with the Kung Fu one. 

In the end you are the consumer. If you don't feel that you are getting what you need , then stop trowing money at somthing you don't believe in. Decide what would benefit you the most and go for it.


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## xfighter88 (Feb 27, 2011)

Let me start off by saying that I have never done Chinese Martial Arts. So I don't know how long it takes to learn adequate self defense skills. I will say though, that in Muay Thai, Krav Maga, Boxing, Blauer Tactical, and many other systems 8 months is more than enough time to be able to feel confident in your self defense skills. It may take much longer to get great at the "art" side but the "martial" side should be obtainable much sooner.

Decide what you want to get from a martial art. If easily learned and effective SD skills are high on that list you may want to look elsewhere.


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## billc (Apr 2, 2011)

My advice, keep practicing, but start looking around at other arts.  You may not be getting what you are looking for through this particular art.  Check out the arts in your area, and use the internet to look at other arts as well.  Different people fit into different arts, fortunately we live in a time where there is a chance to see and do a lot of different arts.  

For myself, I enjoy the FMA and I have found that serrada, and modern arnis are neat but they weren't what I was looking for.  I found DTS and am now a happy camper.  Take some time and look around, you might find a new art or realize you like the one you are in.


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## WC_lun (Apr 2, 2011)

All your concerns are valid concerns, even for a short time of study such as 8 months.  Talk to your instructor.  If you don't tell him your concerns, he can't address them.  It is alos quite possible that others are feeling the same thing.  Look to the seniors.  If the seniors do not show the skills that you are looking to learn, then they have not been taught them.  If that is the case, you will not be taught them either.

Weapon training is common in most kung fu systems.  The weapons are taught to reinforce basic skills, reinforce the different ranges of combat, and to increase certain physical skills.  They aren't taught so you can use a sword to defeat the next ninja you see 

Keep in mind that there are all sorts of teachers in all sorts of systems.  Your current teacher may not provide what you are looking for.  Make sure of that before leaving though.  The eyes of a beginner are not the eyes of an experienced martial artist.  What you think you are getting may not be the same as you are actually recieving.  However, you must be comfortable with the training.  Do not let this traing shade you against similiar styles of martial arts.  It is a risk we all run when we see something, label it, and it turns out not to suite us.  that label is often applied to other things which don't deserve it.

Good luck with your training.  Whatever direction it takes you, I hope you find what you are looking for.  If you'll tell us what area of the world you are in, someone on the forum might be able to help define your search a bit.


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## Indie12 (Apr 8, 2011)

flowOfTheCentury said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Ive been taking Kung Fu for about about 8 months now. Ive loved my class until recently, when I suddenly started having doubts about it. Chief among them are:
> 
> ...


 
*12: Good Luck! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 11, 2011)

Your class doesn't hit anything? I guess it would depend on the style of kung fu, but that does seem odd to me. The Seattle Kung Fu Club has a pretty cool set-up with a mix of normal bags, and some bodacious home-made stuff. We hit stuff (and eachother) in Kung Fu San Soo all the time.

I can only think of a couple of places that teach an 8 animal form. What's the name of the place?


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