# How many people train Modern Arnis as a complete system?



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jul 31, 2004)

Questions:

1. How many started in Modern Arnis as a primary system? 

2. How many people train Modern Arnis as a complete system?

3. How many people train it as an add-on system?


 :asian:  :idunno:


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## Cruentus (Aug 1, 2004)

So...what's everyone's definition of complete system?

Boy...this outta be interesting...

opcorn:


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 1, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> So...what's everyone's definition of complete system?
> 
> Boy...this outta be interesting...
> 
> opcorn:



Do you use Modern Arnis to fill in gaps, cross train into the system or do you train it as the primary program not depending on other systems for punching, kicking, throwing, etc.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 1, 2004)

Until I started training in Balintawak, Modern Arnis was the only system I had trained in formally, unless you count boucing and street thug (* Which I do not *).

I have trained and also teach Modern Arnis as a complete system. Stick (* Staff translations for distancing *), knive and empty hand. I like the basic self defense, as well as the joint locks and throws.

In my humble opinion Modern Arnis is a great art and is easier to learn for self defense then Balintawak would be. This is not a negative comment about Balintawak for I also enjoy this system very much and is a great art my opinion as well. Yet for the complete beginner to learn and be able to defend themselves, I like Modern Arnis. I still teach Modern Arnis to all of my/our students and we only train in Balintawak with those who have also trained with our Instuctor Manong Ted Buot.  I state this to show, that this is what I am doing as the example of not only what I say but also what I do.

:asian:


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## Flatlander (Aug 1, 2004)

14 months of JKD to start, so that was my striking foundation.  Now, only Modern Arnis, no cross training, I don't believe its necessary.  Its all there.:asian:


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## arnisandyz (Aug 1, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Do you use Modern Arnis to fill in gaps, cross train into the system or do you train it as the primary program not depending on other systems for punching, kicking, throwing, etc.



I train other systems not so much for punching ,kicking throwing, but within the confines of FMA. Systems that are more focused on largo, systems that are more focused on the knife, etc. Modern Arnis for close, trapping, locking, etc. Not that one art does not have particular aspects (Modern Arnis DOES have largo and knife) but other styles base their whole strategy around it, thus have different things to offer in that range.  The fun is the overlap and transitions between ranges/styles. I wouldn't consider Modern Arnis an add on, but part of the whole (of what our club does anyways). %-} 

Andy


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## MJS (Aug 2, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Questions:
> 
> 1. How many started in Modern Arnis as a primary system?
> 
> ...



I added it into my Kenpo and BJJ.  It gave me a much better understanding of weapons, the different locking/controlling methods, as well as improvement on overall self defense.  That is the beauty of the art...it can blend well with everything or stand alone.

Mike


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## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Questions:
> 
> 1. How many started in Modern Arnis as a primary system?
> 
> ...


Modern Arnis is the 'uberstructure' of my training because, regardless of where the nuts and bolts come from, the organizational/structural tool is the Modern Arnis Concepts/Skills. 

Dr. Barber, my Primary instructor, trained with Don Zanghi (sp?) who had already blended Arnis with Kenpo. I would say that what I do is a complete MA system with Kenpo material included. So, it would be the flip side wherMA is the main and Kenpo was the 'add-on'.  Though I don't think the Kenpo is a cursory consideration as much as an equal in this artistic "marriage" because the terms and references are different than MA, but the goals and ideas are generally the same.

Regardless, the curriculum was signed off on/acknowledge/approved by RP and Al Tracy both, so I think the subtleties don't matter as much as the harmony to these folks. I am glad that my rank/skill/training is equally respected by my Kenpo family and my Arnis family.


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 2, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Questions:
> 
> 1. How many started in Modern Arnis as a primary system?
> 
> ...


1.  I started MA after 14 years in karate.
2.  I do.  It is a separate system from my karate style.
3.  Not me, baby.

Yours,
Dan "Recently hammered again in the WMAC forum" Anderson


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## Dieter (Aug 2, 2004)

Hi,

I started Martial Arts in 1967, then FMA in 1978. I started teaching Arnis in 1980 and since 1984 I only train and teach Modern Arnis. 

We also teach it as a complete system, with our Modern Arnis uniform and ranking. Also if you are 6th Dan in Karate, you start with our uniform (red pants and white T-shirt) and the first examination is a white belt.

We see Modern Arnis as a complete system and not "The art within your art", 
which is of course, marketing wise, a great way of spreading it.

Regards



Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Northern (Aug 2, 2004)

I like to teach Modern Arnis as a stand alone system.  I think it holds up to that criteria.  
I liked Dieters point that the Art within your Art is a cool idea. 
But, the Arnis can speak for itself as a complete martial arts system.  
I have lots of influences of outside arts and instructors, which are all good.  Even considering that, I consider myself a Modern Arnis Practitioner.  And consider it to be my primary art. 

Bob.


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## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

Sort of a short tangent to this topic: What are the "standard strikes" that RP did teach as part of a "Complete Modern Arnis" system? Is there a list of 'strikes/kicks' that Remy actually taught?

Where did RP draw these strikes/locks/throws from: Shotokan, Small Circle, FMA's or boxing?

Honestly, other than stick stuff, most of the empty hand intricacies that I have seen from videos/presentation seem to be stuff that RP 'stole' (his term) because he liked it and incorporated it. 
The closed fist punching looks like either karate or boxing (depending on when and where he is striking). 
The kicking, which is minimal also looks karate like. The throws/locks look basically universal to most grappling/throwing arts whether FMA "Dumog" or "JiuJutsu" or Mixed Martial Arts. 
The anyos patterns look like standard karate "H" kata work with very little of the Triangulatory movement that the self defense/give and take drills and applications all seem to reinforce.

I think the strength of MA is that you can jump into it with both feet and not have to 'give up' your other training because you can retool/reorganize your already existing skills into the conceptual structure of Modern Arnis.  Yes, there is a spine of skills and drills that make up the physical art but I think the actual understanding/idea goal of conceptual training is the signature element of Modern Arnis.  Part of the reason that RP has students that move uniquely is because of how he could fold in any previous training into their current MA progress instead of considering this stuff "bad habits" that have to be broken.

I have studied/dabbled in various arts including Military hand to hand, MP defensive tactics, Karate, TKD, Boxing, Ryukyu Kempo, Tracy Kenpo, and other arts and have found that I can apply almost all of that stuff into the conceptual training of MA and be a better artist because of it.

Part of the RP/MA legacy is to seek understanding of how movement and ideas relate so that any technique can be made useful if applied correctly, regardless of where it came from before it was incorporated into the MA training.


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## Arnis_DeMano (Aug 3, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Do you use Modern Arnis to fill in gaps, cross train into the system or do you train it as the primary program not depending on other systems for punching, kicking, throwing, etc.


I train modern arnis as a complete system/art but i also train 3 other fma styles. I like the the stickgrappling and the emphasis on the both hands in the modern arnis style allthough my leftie is´nt like the rightie YET!!!


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 3, 2004)

Dieter said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> I started Martial Arts in 1967, then FMA in 1978. I started teaching Arnis in 1980 and since 1984 I only train and teach Modern Arnis.
> 
> ...



Dieter

Do you mean 1994 instead of 84?  (I ask because of your background with GM Ernesto.)

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 3, 2004)

I teach it differently as a blended system

I blend both Modern Arnis and Kombaton.  So I really don't consider it an add on as I add to Kombaton, or as a sub system that Modern Arnis is subordinate to Kombaton.  Rather I stick them into a blender so to speak and mix them all up so they are a whole.

That being said I teach privately and I don't advertize that I teach pure Modern Arnis or Kombaton, I teach Presas Arnis since it's a commbination of the two.

Mark


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## Dieter (Aug 3, 2004)

Hi Mark,

Nice to hear from you.



			
				The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Dieter
> Do you mean 1994 instead of 84?  (I ask because of your background with GM Ernesto.)
> Mark


No, I ment 1984. Not only Remy Presas taught Modern Arnis, I was in the Philippines in 1983 and I had different Modern Arnis teachers there, like  Ernesto Presas, Roberto Presas, Rodel Dagooc, Christino Vasquez, Rene Tongson, Pepito Robas, Willie Annang, Tony Plotria, etc.. All of them taught Modern Arnis. 
My first teacher was Cui Brocka in 1978, who was a student of Ernesto and Roberto Presas, he also taught on the basics and foundation of Modern Arnis.

When you are referring to Kombatan with Ernesto, this was only founded end of the 90's. We had the official split in 1993, but really some years before, so around 1990. This was even before the Mano Mano of Ernesto was established. 
So back in the 80ies, when I was really ctive with Ernesto, it was only called Modern Arnis, not Mano Mano, not Kombatan. Still, also the empty hand and the other weapon techniques were taught.

I hope this helps


Regards

Dieter Knüttel
DATU of Modern Arnis


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> I teach it differently as a blended system
> 
> I blend both Modern Arnis and Kombaton.  So I really don't consider it an add on as I add to Kombaton, or as a sub system that Modern Arnis is subordinate to Kombaton.  Rather I stick them into a blender so to speak and mix them all up so they are a whole.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

Good way to put it.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Black Grass (Aug 3, 2004)

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> Questions:
> 
> 1. How many started in Modern Arnis as a primary system?
> 
> ...



1. Modern Arnis was my first real exposure to martial arts.

2. I no longer train in Modern Arnis

3. When I trained in Modern Arnis i used other systems to add on.

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 4, 2004)

Dieter said:
			
		

> Hi Mark,
> 
> Nice to hear from you.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info Dieter

I'm curious was the system taught differently, both Modern Arnis and Ernesto's?  When I talked with Remy Jr. at a seminar he told me he wasn 't allowed to train with Ernesto only with Remy's BBs.  If Ernesto's system was called Modern Arnis was it the same as Remy's.

Watching Remy Jr. and Dr. Matias their material looked liked Ernesto's (form wise and even technique execution) more so than Remy's from what I saw of his dad's material in the 90's and on the VT of the 80's.  However Remy's older books, the Pink one and the "Practical Art of Eskrima" looked closer in form and technique execution to them (as in Remy Jr. and Dr. Matias) as well.

So I was wondering if it changed when he came to American (GM Remy).  when I saw you at the Symposium I saw what I took to be influence from Ernesto (form and technique execution wise).  But seeing the older books and seeing his son and a long time student maybe it was taught differently back then and I was seeing Remy's influence all along. 

Mark


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 4, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Hi Mark,
> 
> Good way to put it.
> 
> ...



Thanks

Mark


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## Cruentus (Aug 5, 2004)

Wow...it's cool to watch history just transform right before my eyes...

btw...I started Modern Arnis in 1968 with Remy's cousin Samson. It's all Modern Arnis, except our strength is derived from our long hair....

opcorn:


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 5, 2004)

Pauuuuuullllllll,

Here is the right place to mention something and perhaps set up another thread.  I have a copy of a 1975 film of RP doing "pink book" material.  His body actions bear characteristics similar to Ernesto's.  He certainly was using more body shifting when I met him in 1980 than what he did on the film.  Datu Dieter's body movement resembles GM Ernesto.  That should be expected as GM Ernesto was one of his early influences.  Dieter also trained off and on in the PI.  This is where most of us Americans are in the dark.  What are the differences between MA USA and MA PI?  

So, here's a possible new thread question - how much did RP change his own movement _after_ leaving the PI?  I have noticed GM Ernesto doesn't use _as much_ body shifting as his brother.  Now this is based on demonstrations I have seen and watching his students.  Was that how RP taught in the PI?  

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Dieter (Aug 5, 2004)

OK, just a quick answer: 

from what I have learned from Ernesto, Rodel, Bambit and Roland, the style of Ernesto in the 80' was much closer to Remy's Modern Arnis of the 70s as his style in the 90s.
This ment, that there was a clear distincion between modern and classical techniques, modern meaning stick techniques (grabbing the stick) and straight forward moving into the attacking action of the opponent, classical meaning blade techniques, and evading to the side.

We do both.

Regards


Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Arnis


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## Cruentus (Aug 5, 2004)

lol

Don't pay any attention to me...I am just messing around.

Yes, perhaps that'd make a good new thread. I know that just from my training there was a big difference from how Remy moved in the early 90's from the later 90's due to artheritis. I am sure he moved more dynamically the further back in the years you go. I also find it amazing that even in his later years, his skill was able to make up for any lack of physical attributes.

 :supcool:


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 5, 2004)

Dieter said:
			
		

> OK, just a quick answer:
> 
> from what I have learned from Ernesto, Rodel, Bambit and Roland, the style of Ernesto in the 80' was much closer to Remy's Modern Arnis of the 70s as his style in the 90s.
> This ment, that there was a clear distincion between modern and classical techniques, modern meaning stick techniques (grabbing the stick) and straight forward moving into the attacking action of the opponent, classical meaning blade techniques, and evading to the side.
> ...



Thanks for the info Dieter.

One other question, or maybe Dan can answer this. In his older books (the Pink one and the Practical Art of Eskrima), Remy appears to do alot of turning on the balls of his feet or maybe on the heels.  Thus turning his body in between (possibly) the block and the strike.  Like he would block a strike and then pivot to add power to the strike.  In the 80's tapes and seeing him in the 90's I don't remember seeing this type of body movement.  Was this exagerated for the photos or did he do this type of movements in real life?

I ask this because when studying karate/TKD in the past we pivoted on our balls of our feet for some of the stances and in kobudo we pivoted on our heels when changing directions.  I remember seeing this in some of the older karate texts as well.  However in all of the other FMA styles/books/VTs etc. etc. I didn't ever really notice this type of movement persay.  In the older books the stances looked much more karateish (new word), than what I've seen since.

Did you guys notice this with the Professor, or with his other older students from the Philippines?

Hey if you decide to create the thread that Dan suggested maybe this should be moved there.

Mark


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## Northern (Aug 5, 2004)

For the record, when Professor showed something in private, and/or one on one in the nineties he had shifting and proper mechanics... He didn't emphasize it in the main group setting because he was trying to get across a certain amount of material. (at least that is what I always figured)  I have asked him about shifting and the like when I was trying to clarify techniques and he always showed superior mechanics.  And his sensitivity from slow to fast and hard to soft was amazing.   *just my two cents.


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 5, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info Dieter.
> 
> One other question, or maybe Dan can answer this. In his older books (the Pink one and the Practical Art of Eskrima), Remy appears to do alot of turning on the balls of his feet or maybe on the heels.  Thus turning his body in between (possibly) the block and the strike.  Like he would block a strike and then pivot to add power to the strike.  In the 80's tapes and seeing him in the 90's I don't remember seeing this type of body movement.  Was this exagerated for the photos or did he do this type of movements in real life?
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

Remy would use rotation like someone who had done it for years - *very* economical movement.  A trained eye could see the body dynamics.  The untrained eye saw him use arm movement.  His body shifting that I refer to was more of the defensive movement you'd find in his 6-count or flow drills.

Dieter makes an interesting historical point that 





> what I have learned from Ernesto, Rodel, Bambit and Roland, the style of Ernesto in the 80' was much closer to Remy's Modern Arnis of the 70s as his style in the 90s.



This makes sense when you look at the "pink book" and his "eskrima" book as opposed to his book published by Ohara.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Yours,
Dan


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 5, 2004)

Dan

Thanks for the feedback.  In your book on MA you demonstrated body shifting and I thought it was in relation to the defensive movements.  However seeing especially the "Practical..Eskrima" book I noticed the larger movements and the pivoting motion on either the balls of the feet or the heels.  While I agree that Remy moved with proper body mechanics and rotation with very little movement, I was wondering how he taught the techniques back in the Philippines (or the early days here in the states) with either the larger motions or the smaller motion.

I mentioned before when I attended the MARPPIO seminar that Andrew hosted that Dr. Matias and Dr. Remy Jr. moved differently than what I've wittnessed here in the states with Remy's later students.  Even Dieter moves differently more like those trained in the Philippines.  

Something was mentioned to me at dinner about learning a pure system (I've had serveral influences in the FMA including Remy and Ernesto, so I haven't learned a pure system).  Some people I think like you have learned a pretty pure system of only MA from Remy himself.  Dr. Remy Jr. and Dr. Matias only have studied from Remy and his direct students from the Philippines.  So I'm asking about the movements to see how he might have taught long before I started with him.  Just curious.

Thanks
Mark


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