# My TSA approved improvised weapon choice.......



## Jared Traveler (Aug 29, 2022)

When I began traveling internationally, I struggled to find a weapon that I could carry anywhere. I came up with many nasty options.

Including a trick I learned about when I was an undercover, investigating motorcycle gangs. The weapon of choice with many motorcycle gangs being a handkerchief slid through a padlock. Carried in the back pocket with the tails of the handkerchief hanging out of the pocket. Obviously you could quickly grab the tails and pull out a pretty nasty weapon!

However ultimately that is not what I went with. Instead I carry a very simple device. What I carry everywhere is a common metal water bottle. Of course I found one that fits my hand perfectly. When filed with water it's like carrying a hammer.

Nobody ever gives it a second look. I have had so many other gadgets that went through one international airport fine, but was seized in another country. My tactical pin was seized in South Korea for instance. However the water bottle goes everywhere. 

As an added bonus, I stay more hydrated. But also I can always boild water when traveling. Although I carry multiple options for clean water and the water bottle is more of a last resort.

I haven't hit anyone with it yet, and hopefully never will. But oh my would it do the trick!

What is your favorite TSA approved weapon?


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2022)




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## Buka (Aug 29, 2022)

I've spent a lot of time flying in my life, and a lot of time working at TSA checkpoints. (a terrible post to get stuck with, but many times entertaining.)

As such, I fly with a slew of things in my carry-on that are perfectly acceptable to fly with, that we've spent years, decades actually, training with for bad scenarios.

And I'll tell you one thing - TSA people don't get paid enough, no matter what their salary is. That is one thankless job dealing with way more A-holes than anyone should be expected to tolerate within a given lifetime.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 29, 2022)




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## Jared Traveler (Aug 29, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> View attachment 28824


I mean.... Just wow.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

Depends on how old you are. I carry a cane everywhere I go since last year when people started to attack older Asians. That's the only reason I am here.......stick fight. I just join in the MA side just because I am here. To me bare knuckle MA is just aerobic exercise. This, is self defense.

But do practice if you want to carry. I split half and half time between stick fight and heavy bags punching and kicking. I have been doing it for a year and half. Don't just carry and think you can use it. It's very easy to hit something in the way and the cane flies off your hand. Then the attacker can pick up your cane against you.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> View attachment 28824


That is impractical. So obvious I doubt you can pass the airport, AND you really need to know what you are doing. I question in real life situation(not in movie) where there are other obstacles in the way, how effective this can be. It's flexible like whips, looks good in the movie only.

I rather cloth with pad lock, they both can hit you back if you are not careful. obstacles in the way can make it more unpredictable.

Even with the cane, I spend time practice in confined space where there are furniture in the way to get use to real life situation. With a stick, I can hold the stick more in the middle to shorten the stick swing radius, you will have a hard time doing that with this.

Fancy and flashy is usually not good.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

Another thing I bought lately, but have not use is this:
Amazon.com : no touch keychain tool

It's "supposed" to be for pushing elevator button, open door handle without touching in this pandemic. But, it's a brass knuckle!!!




Is stun gun allow on the plane? I know pepper spray is NOT.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Another thing I bought lately, but have not use is this:
> Amazon.com : no touch keychain tool
> 
> It's "supposed" to be for pushing elevator button, open door handle without touching in this pandemic. But, it's a brass knuckle!!!
> ...


That could certainly do damage. The truck to something like that is having the awareness, and bias to put it on early in a confrontation.


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## wab25 (Sep 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I have had so many other gadgets that went through one international airport fine, but was seized in another country. My tactical pin was seized in South Korea for instance.


I never understood why people would buy this:


			https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Bear-Tactical-Pen-Ballpoint/dp/B01MG25VN1
		


Its expensive (they used to cost a lot more)... and it screams "I am a weapon!!!" If you know how to use that as a weapon... buy this instead:


			https://www.staples.com/Zebra-F-301-Stainless-Steel-Retractable-Ballpoint-Pens-Fine-Point-Black-2-Pack/product_270975
		


You don't need aircraft grade aluminum to use against another person. It looks totally innocent. And if they confiscate it... its ok, it came in a 2-pack... you have another one... Also, Zebra pens are really nice to write with....


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 1, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I never understood why people would buy this:
> http://[URL]https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Bear-Tactical-Pen-Ballpoint/dp/B01MG25VN1[/URL]
> 
> Its expensive (they used to cost a lot more)... and it screams "I am a weapon!!!" If you know how to use that as a weapon... buy this instead:
> ...


Yeah that's fair. I picked the Rebel because I thought it looked the least tactical. After my first few years being a "tactical guy" I started distancing myself "tactical looking" stuff. Hints the "rebel" version and now my water bottle option.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

The idea of cloth with pad lock is good if you know how to swing it. Why no using keys? Just put a few extra keys to make up the weight. You can even use a chain to hang on your belt like in the older days. Hang on the belt and keys in the pocket. Pull it out and swing.

Tactical pen is not very useful and obvious. 

I take that you don't like cane. I know, a lot of men don't like cane because it make them look old and weak. My stepson is like that, he really need the cane because he has foot problem. I even offered him one of mine and he refused to even touch it.


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## wab25 (Sep 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Tactical pen is not very useful and obvious.


A tactical pen is very obvious when going through security. However, pens can be very useful, if you know how to use one. Learn how to use a kuboton and or a yawara stick and then apply to your pen. If you are using a non-tactical pen... it may very easily be overlooked as a weapon.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> The idea of cloth with pad lock is good if you know how to swing it. Why no using keys? Just put a few extra keys to make up the weight. You can even use a chain to hang on your belt like in the older days. Hang on the belt and keys in the pocket. Pull it out and swing.
> 
> Tactical pen is not very useful and obvious.
> 
> I take that you don't like cane. I know, a lot of men don't like cane because it make them look old and weak. My stepson is like that, he really need the cane because he has foot problem. I even offered him one of mine and he refused to even touch it.


I don't like canes for multiple reasons. Primarily I think they are extremely overrated as an effect tool.


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## Buka (Sep 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I don't like canes for multiple reasons. Primarily I think they are extremely overrated as an effect tool.


But they do work well as a sturdy stick. And you can get away with carrying said sturdy stick without raising anyone's eyebrows.


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## drop bear (Sep 1, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I never understood why people would buy this:
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Bear-Tactical-Pen-Ballpoint/dp/B01MG25VN1
> ...



In regards to pens. The uniball power tank from my video is basically the best pen ever.

It is a disposable space pen basically. So it writes under water, in space and in freezing conditions.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I don't like canes for multiple reasons. Primarily I think they are extremely overrated as an effect tool.


Why don't you think is an effect tool?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

Buka said:


> But they do work well as a sturdy stick. And you can get away with carrying said sturdy stick without raising anyone's eyebrows.


Extra over 10" of reach also. I particularly practice hitting with two hands like the Japanese sword. I can use a 20oz cane that can hit hard, not the rattan stuff that is light.

It is sure better than brass knuckle, tactical pen or even pocket knife because of the extra reach. It is a lot easier than pad lock tie with cloth. I just afraid when the pad lock hit something, the movement of the pad lock becomes unpredictable. Might hit back on you!!! It's a lot harder to control unless you really spend the time to practice. Well, you need to practice with a cane also, but not as critical.

One thing I notice, at least two people I know absolutely refused to consider carrying a cane. The reason is making them look old. Funny, I told them even if they are close to 60, they are OLD!!! Cane is the best thing to me, at my age, nobody even take a second look at me carrying a cane. I don't even try to use it to walk. Whenever I go out, I carry it like a stick, never touch the ground. In a way, I let people know I am not carrying a cane for walking. If this can prevent one attack by just looking at my cane, it's a win in my book.

Also, cane is not consider a lethal weapon, not like knife etc. You likely don't kill anyone, but it has stopping power if you hit hard with a heavier stick.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Why don't you think is an effect tool?


I'm not an expert on using a cane. However I do have a black belt in Hapkido, a lot of people that use canes have a background in that system. I'm also a police instructor on both pr24s and straight batons. So I'm not totally ignorant to using sticks and bats. I have used these tools on the job number of times. I have used them for striking, and grappling and joint manipulation.

I feel like a cane would be one of my last choices for this purpose. I think it's too long, and or not long enough. It's awkward, cumbersome and will likely result in grappling. If I'm going to grapple the last thing I want to do is have a cane in my hand. I know there are techniques for this using a cane, but with all of my grappling experience having a cane would just be a major nuisance towards applying grappling techniques.

I'm not intimidated by canes, very easy to get inside a range and nullify it. I think it provides a super ton of false confidence to most people that are carrying it. Again that's just my opinion I know a lot of people will disagree. And that's fine but it's not for me and I think it's overhyped.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 1, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm not an expert on using a cane. However I do have a black belt in Hapkido, a lot of people that use canes have a background in that system. I'm also a police instructor on both pr24s and straight batons. So I'm not totally ignorant to using sticks and bats. I have used these tools on the job number of times. I have used them for striking, and grappling and joint manipulation.
> 
> I feel like a cane would be one of my last choices for this purpose. I think it's too long, and or not long enough. It's awkward, cumbersome and will likely result in grappling. If I'm going to grapple the last thing I want to do is have a cane in my hand. I know there are techniques for this using a cane, but with all of my grappling experience having a cane would just be a major nuisance towards applying grappling techniques.
> 
> I'm not intimidated by canes, very easy to get inside a range and nullify it. I think it provides a super ton of false confidence to most people that are carrying it. Again that's just my opinion I know a lot of people will disagree. And that's fine but it's not for me and I think it's overhyped.


You are assuming the one uses the cane is not as good as you. But what if the opponent uses the cane is an expert also, you think you can get in and do grappling that easy?

The way I see it is you* have to* compare two people with similar skill. Then the one with the cane will have a much longer reach than bare knuckle or even a knife, that the one with the cane can hit the bare knuckle before he has any chance to close in. It's no point talking about two people with very different level of skill.

That's the reason I made it very clear that one cannot just carry a cane and assume they can fight. Like I said, I've been practicing for a year and half already. I am no where good, but at least I paid the dues and keep practicing. The worst is someone carrying and don't know how to use it.

I am not trying to convince you one way or the other. If you don't like it, it's your choice. I just cannot imagine two people of same skill level, one either bare hand or even a pocket knife can win over one with a cane. REMEMBER, *they are at SAME skill level.*


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 2, 2022)

I like to carry 2 Baoding balls with me. I can hold in my hands to make 2 solid fists. I can also throw at someone from a far distance if needed (I was a junior high school baseball team pitcher).

I'm pretty sure it's 100% legal to carry it.






When you hold it like this, your opponent will run away.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You are assuming the one uses the cane is not as good as you. But what if the opponent uses the cane is an expert also, you think you can get in and do grappling that easy?
> 
> The way I see it is you* have to* compare two people with similar skill. Then the one with the cane will have a much longer reach than bare knuckle or even a knife, that the one with the cane can hit the bare knuckle before he has any chance to close in. It's no point talking about two people with very different level of skill.
> 
> ...


If it's two people with similar skills, in my opinion it's going to quickly turn into a wrestling match over the cane. Or one person is going to nullify the cane, and use their free hand to strike the opponent who has both hands on the stick. I'm not saying you can't damage somebody with it, you certainly can. I once saw someone get five or six stitches, because their 12 year old daughter sitting in the backseat of the car hit them in the head with a plastic toy from McDonald's. So you can certainly do damage, but having both hands occupied holding a stick is not the best way to grapple.  For me it's more of a liability than an asset, because it's not a good grappling weapon or a great striking weapon. I also think most people that carrier came for self-defense are not super confident fighters. I don't mean that as an indictment I just am talking in general terms.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> If it's two people with similar skills, in my opinion it's going to quickly turn into a wrestling match over the cane. Or one person is going to nullify the cane, and use their free hand to strike the opponent who has both hands on the stick. I'm not saying you can't damage somebody with it, you certainly can. I once saw someone get five or six stitches, because their 12 year old daughter sitting in the backseat of the car hit them in the head with a plastic toy from McDonald's. So you can certainly do damage, but having both hands occupied holding a stick is not the best way to grapple.  For me it's more of a liability than an asset, because it's not a good grappling weapon or a great striking weapon. I also think most people that carrier came for self-defense are not super confident fighters. I don't mean that as an indictment I just am talking in general terms.


I for one is not confident, that's why I carry a cane. But what is the chance the attacker is an expert of grappling like you? For someone with only my skill of bare knuckle fight, I am sure I can beat him with my cane.

The one with cane can move, not just being grab by you. I particular practice striking at the knee instead of to the head just to prevent the guy from grabbing the cane. I try to hit low, beyond the reach of the hands. Using the extra reach to hit the knee or calf. I want to slow down his mobility.

I might be wrong, try to hit the head entails a lot of risk. It's natural for him to reach up to block and grab the cane, then it will go into tuck of war or worst. Go for the knee, slow the mobility, then worry about other things, or just run away.

I also practice hit low then hit the head. Idea is when I hit the leg, the natural reflex of him is to reach down, the head will be open for me to strike. I don't have people to practice, I keep my practice very simple. Just hit, hit HARD. No fancy stuff, just hit hard. I mix in kicks also as my legs are free.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I for one is not confident, that's why I carry a cane. But what is the chance the attacker is an expert of grappling like you? For someone with only my skill of bare knuckle fight, I am sure I can beat him with my cane.


Perhaps you can. Certainly not saying you can't, I'm just saying I don't find it to be an efficient striking weapon myself.

Regardless if they're skilled grappler or not, if I'm using it as a striking weapon, I think there's a high probability I'm going to end up in a grappling match, even if I'm the superior grappler.

This leaves me with a weapon that I don't really prefer to strike with, and don't prefer to grapple with either.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Did you see my post about using the same idea as padlock and cloth, but instead to be so obvious, use a set of keys on a chain. Hook to the belt of the pants like in the older days people hang a watch and put in the pocket. You put enough keys, it's going to hurt hitting. AND more importantly, that will NOT draw attention. It's so obvious if you carry a padlock on a cloth!!!

If that suits you, it's definitely better than tactical pen or brass knuckle. I still believe in longer reach means everything. Grappling can only work one on one, what if there are more than one attacker?

But again, you need even more practice swinging the keys than cane. I just afraid it might hit me back if I don't know how to swing the key(or the padlock). Do you know how to do it?

Maybe I should wear a helmet and try hitting the heavy bags with keys on the chain and see.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Did you see my post about using the same idea as padlock and cloth, but instead to be so obvious, use a set of keys on a chain. Hook to the belt of the pants like in the older days people hand a watch and put in the pocket. You put enough keys, it's going to hurt hitting. AND more importantly, that will NOT draw attention. It's so obvious if you carry a padlock on a cloth!!!
> 
> If that suits you, it's definitely better than tactical pen or brass knuckle. I still believe in longer reach means everything. Grappling can only work one on one, what if there are more than one attacker?
> 
> ...


I think it's worth exploring. I think it would take a lot of keys to have the same hard hitting impact as a padlock. Probably more than I would want to carry. With that said, I have never chosen to carry a pad lock in this fashion, I'm just aware that it exists as an option. A pretty simple and brutal option.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I think it's worth exploring. I think it would take a lot of keys to have the same hard hitting impact as a padlock. Probably more than I would want to carry. With that said, I have never chosen to carry a pad lock in this fashion, I'm just aware that it exists as an option. A pretty simple and brutal option.


Yeh, it's just compare between padlock and keys.

I edited my post #23 on cane after you responded. Did you see the part I practice hitting the knee on my first strike instead of the head and the upper body? What do you think the way to avoid people grabbing the cane.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, it's just compare between padlock and keys.
> 
> I edited my post #23 on cane after you responded. Did you see the part I practice hitting the knee on my first strike instead of the head and the upper body? What do you think the way to avoid people grabbing the cane.


My thoughts on the cane would be, if you're carrying a cane for legitimate health reasons, by all means learn how to use it as a defensive weapon as best as possible. I think that's just smart.

Regarding carrying it when you don't need it, I think it's important not to overestimate the utility, and superiority that the cane might hypothetically give you. Again I think it has serious limitations. One limitation being how much room you need to swing that thing, and how you typically have very little room when fighting in hallways, living rooms, airplanes, wherever you're in a real self-defense situation.

Understand that you are now employing a lethal force weapon, that changes the dynamic of when the cane can be used, and when it can't be used. But now you have it so it's a factor in almost any engagement you get into. In some ways turning every confrontation into a situation where it's potentially lethal. Or at least it may legitimately be viewed that way by law enforcement.

If you're going to use it I would make a serious study of kendo or kenjutsu. I think that would be the best way to employ the cane myself. As far as hitting the knee, this could certainly be done precisely, using blade deception found in kendo training. Of course this requires a lot of room to swing a weapon like that, you're just as likely to hit an innocent person nearby trying to employ these techniques on an airplane or any type of space in a real environment. What happens after you hit somebody in the knee, depends on multiple factors.

You might cripple them, or you might be off by an inch, but still cause enough pain to get them to back away. Of course that pain could also motivate them to move forward and grab a hold of the cane before you have a chance to retract it for a second strike.

So many factors here, but I think the main thing would be if I personally was going to carry a cane, I would seriously study how to use it, avoiding almost all of the fancy grappling techniques, although I'm sure some of them could work. And I would rely on my grappling skills to retain the cane, and or get it back if someone took it from me.

I think someone holding a cane could be a legitimate deterrence, and cause someone not to attack in the first place. This I believe.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

You confirm a lot of my fear and where I concentrate in practicing. I practice a lot *in hallway and in room with a lot of furniture*. I learn how to change the length of the cane by holding it more towards the middle and change the length of the cane to suit the situation. I even hang a weighted and deflated speed bag and practice hitting at the very bottom. When it swing, it is hard to even hit it so I miss on and off. The point is to learn to hold onto the stick if I miss and not let the cane fly off my hands. I don't practice any fancy moves, just hit the bottom of the heavy bag, concentrate in using body and arm to hit as hard as possible with a heavy cane and pull back quickly after hitting.

For close distance, I practice a lot of poking instead of swinging. It is hard to grab the cane when I do poking straight in and out. Also, I combine kicks to the knee, WC step kick to the knee to add to the cane. So in case the cane got grabbed, I kick to the leg.

I spent a lot of time practice casting where I hold the cane close to body, I swing at the same time reach out to hit. Then I pull back fast. I actually practice hitting with the same strike repeatedly. Meaning say I hit the right knee, I put back the stick quickly and hit the right knee again repeatly. I don't just swing from right to left, then left to right. I practice hit and pull back hard so I don't over reach.

*Yes, confined space fighting is the key*. I decided not to go learn like escrima or other stick fight because their techniques are for competition that you have *a wide space and you can swing wild*. That will not work in real life situation. I concentrate on fighting in confined space.

I am glad you mention these, that I am concentrate in the right place.

as for lethal force, hey it's better than using a knife. That is more lethal. I am not going out to look for a fight. If I have to use the cane, it's for self defense. At least it's not as lethal as knife.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You confirm a lot of my fear and where I concentrate in practicing. I practice a lot *in hallway and in room with a lot of furniture*. I learn how to change the length of the cane by holding it more towards the middle and change the length of the cane to suit the situation. I even hang a weighted and deflated speed bag and practice hitting at the very bottom. When it swing, it is hard to even hit it so I miss on and off. The point is to learn to hold onto the stick if I miss and not let the cane fly off my hands. I don't practice any fancy moves, just hit the bottom of the heavy bag, concentrate in using body and arm to hit as hard as possible with a heavy cane and pull back quickly after hitting.
> 
> For close distance, I practice a lot of poking instead of swinging. It is hard to grab the cane when I do poking straight in and out. Also, I combine kicks to the knee, WC step kick to the knee to add to the cane. So in case the cane got grabbed, I kick to the leg.
> 
> ...


I think the more striking and grappling skills you have, the better your chances are of using the cane successfully. Cane retention would be a major focus of my training, until I was confident I could keep the cane if someone wanted to take it from me.

Also if I'm confident at disarming someone with a cane and mitigating their attacks, then it's unlikely they can hurt me with my own cane.

I just feel this all requires a higher degree of training and skill than people realize. I think many people chose the cane because they think it is a shortcut, or a simple solution to having a solid tool to defend themselves with.

I honestly wish them the best of luck, I hope they are able to disable an attacker easily using their cane if needed.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I think the more striking and grappling skills you have, the better your chances are of using the cane successfully. Cane retention would be a major focus of my training, until I was confident I could keep the cane if someone wanted to take it from me.
> 
> Also if I'm confident at disarming someone with a cane and mitigating their attacks, then it's unlikely they can hurt me with my own cane.
> 
> ...


No, I take it very serious in practicing the cane. I am not that good in MA and cane. I am not a beginner, but nothing like you. I am doing my best. I try thinking of all the real life situation instead of all the fancy stuffs. I am glad I am not out there,that my worry and concentration is valid.

I am too old to worry about being that good, just do the best I can.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

I don't want to hijack your thread. Let's get back to what you want. You have to go through airport, your option is really limited.

Your steel water bottle is one. I still think the keys with chain is a valid possibility. If you have 6 keys, that's quite a bit of weight. Problem is you really have to practice with that. More so than cane. If you are not careful, you can hit yourself!!! You can think also pants belt with a big brass so you can pull the belt out and swing with the brass as the head.

Those tactical pen or even the brass knuckle are not that effective in my book as you don't get extra reach. Pepper spray and stun gun is out of the question for airport. It is kind of funny to carry a long flash light onto the plane!!!


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't want to hijack your thread. Let's get back to what you want. You have to go through airport, your option is really limited.
> 
> Your steel water bottle is one. I still think the keys with chain is a valid possibility. If you have 6 keys, that's quite a bit of weight. Problem is you really have to practice with that. More so than cane. If you are not careful, you can hit yourself!!! You can think also pants belt with a big brass so you can pull the belt out and swing with the brass as the head.
> 
> Those tactical pen or even the brass knuckle are not that effective in my book as you don't get extra reach. Pepper spray and stun gun is out of the question for airport.


I think the keys idea has potential. I would want to test it, striking something to give me an idea on how much of an impact it will make. I don't think it would take as much practice as you think. Mainly because with a handkerchief, it's such a short rope that you're holding on to. The longer the rope, or the cloth, the more skilled it would be required. But with a handkerchief the striking object should only be hanging a few inches from your hand. As a novice you can choke up on it and make the length shorter.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Well, if you put it inside the check in case, you can think of a long flash light. Then when you leave the airport, just carry on the belt. Plenty of tactical flashlight around, better than water bottle. Just that if you try to carry it on you, they might question you why such a big flash light. You might open yourself to more option. Things you cannot carry on the plane with you, but in the suit case.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Well, if you put it inside the check in case, you can think of a long flash light. Then when you leave the airport, just carry on the belt. Plenty of tactical flashlight around, better than water bottle. Just that if you try to carry it on you, they might question you why such a big flash light. You might open yourself to more option. Things you cannot carry on the plane with you, but in the suit case.


I have been to some pretty advanced low light courses, regarding using flashlights and a tactical environment. I do carry a tactical flashlight in my bag. And by tactical flashlight I mean one that has enough lumens to get the job done. Also one with a good striking surface. It is not a large flashlight though.

I worked in the dark for many many years doing a lot of crazy and wild stuff. The flashlight was definitely always in demand, and always useful. Without a doubt the best thing to use against an aggressive dog as a first line of defense.

With that said, I'm rarely going to walk around with a tactical flashlight in my hand when traveling. I'm certainly not going to walk around with a large flashlight in my hand in the middle of the day. Or often at night either. However the water bottle blends in no matter where I am, and I would much rather have that in my hand as a striking weapon than a flashlight.


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## punisher73 (Sep 2, 2022)

I've always carried something similar to this in my front shirt pocket.  I like the flat end so I can hold and place my thumb on top to reinforce for stabbing.  Never understood the "tactical pen" trend.  It just looked like a weapon that could write.  

Water bottle is a great idea (just remember to keep it empty until after the screening process).

Getting a big magazine (harder to get nowadays) and rolling it up tight is another one.


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## wab25 (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Those tactical pen or even the brass knuckle are not that effective in my book as you don't get extra reach.


So, you are basing effectiveness on the amount of extra reach? You should forget the cane, and carry a Jo or hiking stick... more reach. Well, just carry a Bo... it is hard to get more reach than a 6 foot Bo.... The Bo must then be the most effective.

The issue here is that you are assuming the attacker will announce his intentions to attack you from ten feet away... allowing you to begin the fight with enough distance to use your cane... and you are assuming that you will keep your cane, that he won't take it away.

Not every attack happens that way. Many times the attack happens when the attacker is already very close to you... you might not know that you are being attacked until you are being grabbed or hit.

Pens can be easily carried in a pocket. You can easily get one from a pocket and stab with it very quickly, and in close quarters. You can use it to stab the hand that is grabbing you, choking you or trying to take away your cane. You can also stab face, neck, ribs, legs, arms... and the hard pointy pen will do more damage than hitting with your hand.

I am not saying to get rid of your cane. But, its cheap enough to also put a pen in your pocket. As long as it is not a "tactical" pen... security will ignore it, as will your attacker... Start by using your cane, if the attack starts at distance. If the attacker gets inside, grabs your cane or you... stab him with the pen.... repeatedly.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Extra over 10" of reach also. I particularly practice hitting with two hands like the Japanese sword.


No, you do not. You practice hitting with two hands like a baseball bat. Because a cane is a blunt weapon that relies on mass, that is the correct way to swing it. The Japanese sword is a slicing swing. Because that is the correct way to swing it.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I don't like canes for multiple reasons. Primarily I think they are extremely overrated as an effect tool.


LOL.  No.  They are quite excellent.  But you have to know how to use one.

It's a stick.  A stick is the oldest weapon known to man, predating everything but maybe a BFR.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you do not. You practice hitting with two hands like a baseball bat. Because a cane is a blunt weapon that relies on mass, that is the correct way to swing it. The Japanese sword is a slicing swing. Because that is the correct way to swing it.


I like poking, tripping, trapping, choking, and dragging the tip through eyes and ears and groins more than swinging a cane like a baseball bat.  I love canes.


----------



## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> LOL.  No.  They are quite excellent.  But you have to know how to use one.
> 
> It's a stick.  A stick is the oldest weapon known to man, predating everything but maybe a BFR.


LOL I understand, but not all sticks are created equal. I am trained in how to use sticks as a weapon(I trained many people to do this) and have used them on resisting opponents on several occasions. But ultimately decided to leave it in my patrol car to save room on my belt. 

I'm not here to tell you that you can't use a cane to defend yourself. I am saying it is a big giant no for me, based on my experience. If you gave me a cane, I would definitely put the hurt on someone in most situations. But that doesn't mean I would recommend it or carry it.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm not intimidated by canes, very easy to get inside a range and nullify it. I think it provides a super ton of false confidence to most people that are carrying it. Again that's just my opinion I know a lot of people will disagree. And that's fine but it's not for me and I think it's overhyped.


Get inside my swinging range and I'll use the end of it on your eyes, teeth, nose, ears, solar plexus, or groin.  I'll use it to enhance punches.  It's not just a bludgeoning weapon to swing around.

The police arm themselves with nightsticks for a reason.  For riots, they carry 'riot batons', which are longer nightsticks.  The reason they do that is because they work when used correctly.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> LOL I understand, but not all sticks are created equal. I am trained in how to use sticks as a weapon(I trained many people to do this) and have used them on resisting opponents on several occasions. But ultimately decided to leave it in my patrol car to save room on my belt.
> 
> I'm not here to tell you that you can't use a cane to defend yourself. I am saying it is a big giant no for me, based on my experience. If you gave me a cane, I would definitely put the hurt on someone in most situations. But that doesn't mean I would recommend it or carry it.


I wouldn't carry a cane as a defense weapon if I didn't need a cane to walk properly.  If one is in need of a cane for legitimate medical reasons, there is no reason not to train with it and make it an effective self-defense weapon as well, and quite a few reasons to do so.

I don't carry my Monadnock anymore either (it's next to my bed at home) but put a random stick in my hand and a drunk attempting to pull some nonsense, and I'll put him in a figure four choke so fast it'll make his head spin.  Well actually, he'll be doing the chicken on the ground, but that's what good blood chokes do.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Get inside my swinging range and I'll use the end of it on your eyes, teeth, nose, ears, solar plexus, or groin.  I'll use it to enhance punches.  It's not just a bludgeoning weapon to swing around.
> 
> The police arm themselves with nightsticks for a reason.  For riots, they carry 'riot batons', which are longer nightsticks.  The reason they do that is because they work when used correctly.


I'm happy you have confidence in your ability. I have been in these riots. 2020 was a crazy year.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wouldn't carry a cane as a defense weapon if I didn't need a cane to walk properly.  If one is in need of a cane for legitimate medical reasons, there is no reason not to train with it and make it an effective self-defense weapon as well, and quite a few reasons to do so.
> 
> I don't carry my Monadnock anymore either (it's next to my bed at home) but put a random stick in my hand and a drunk attempting to pull some nonsense, and I'll put him in a figure four choke so fast it'll make his head spin.  Well actually, he'll be doing the chicken on the ground, but that's what good blood chokes do.


I think if you have a legit reason or need to carry a cane, you should absolutely train with it and maximize it's use as a self-defense weapon. If I needed a cane, I would work hard at being good at using it in all types of situations.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm happy you have confidence in your ability. I have been in these riots. 2020 was a crazy year.


So have I, but it was the year of Rodney King for me.  My days in any kind of uniform are over.  I beat up computers now.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> So have I, but it was the year of Rodney King for me.  My days in any kind of uniform are over.  I beat up computers now.


Ha! The war of the machines! That's the worst! Rodney King was largely a result of an ineffective use of PR24 batons.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What is your favorite TSA approved weapon?


A weapon is what you use a thing for, not what it either is intended to be used for or pretends to be used for.  I try to explain that to people who are unclear on the concept of why a screwdriver can be a screwdriver, or a burglar tool, or a weapon.  It's not the thing itself; it's how it is intended to be used by the person carrying it and how it actually is used.

In that vein, there are no TSA-approved weapons.  There are things which one may take aboard a plane, which could be pressed into service for self-defense.  Under no circumstances would I refer to something I carried on my person as a weapon.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A weapon is what you use a thing for, not what it either is intended to be used for or pretends to be used for.  I try to explain that to people who are unclear on the concept of why a screwdriver can be a screwdriver, or a burglar tool, or a weapon.  It's not the thing itself; it's how it is intended to be used by the person carrying it and how it actually is used.
> 
> In that vein, there are no TSA-approved weapons.  There are things which one may take aboard a plane, which could be pressed into service for self-defense.  Under no circumstances would I refer to something I carried on my person as a weapon.


The problem is, I always have weapons on me, even when I'm naked! 😊


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 2, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The problem is, I always have weapons on me, even when I'm naked! 😊


This is my rifle, this is my gun.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 2, 2022)

Hi Jared Traveler,

You have mentioned your arts and certs. 
You have mentioned room to use and not having it in crowds or hallways or ...
You have appealed to authority with your experience on the force in 2020. 
...

My FMA training/ and teachings do not require that much room. 

I can use a full long sword or 4 foot cane in my living room without hitting the ceiling or other objects. 
One of the arts I teach, and am an inheritor (Appeal to authority) if stick dueling. And the range is close and most people would call it the stand up grappling range. Not barely able to reach them, I am talking hand on their neck or elbow. 

I have used weapons in a house for real. 
I have used improvised weapons in one or few on many. 
I did it in the Flint Area in the 80's. You know that place that was always listed the most dangerous and the worst place to live. 
That is where I hung out and worked . (* Another or still an appeal to authority my experience *)

They work. Your biases in your training tell me you have had the standard Korean training that also seems prevalent in Law enforcement. 
...

That being said, are knives better for damage ? Yes
Are firearms even better yet for damage? Yes. 

Do I walk everywhere with a cane or stick? No. 
Did I after a motorcycle accident? Yes. 

I agree with Bill, and his training is not in the same circle on the Venn diagram as my training. 
Good Technique should not be unique to one system. 

As to preferred TSA approved. I have none.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No, you do not. You practice hitting with two hands like a baseball bat. Because a cane is a blunt weapon that relies on mass, that is the correct way to swing it. The Japanese sword is a slicing swing. Because that is the correct way to swing it.


Yes, I should said baseball bat instead, I meant just holding like the Japanese sword with two hands.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

wab25 said:


> So, you are basing effectiveness on the amount of extra reach? You should forget the cane, and carry a Jo or hiking stick... more reach. Well, just carry a Bo... it is hard to get more reach than a 6 foot Bo.... The Bo must then be the most effective.
> 
> The issue here is that you are assuming the attacker will announce his intentions to attack you from ten feet away... allowing you to begin the fight with enough distance to use your cane... and you are assuming that you will keep your cane, that he won't take it away.
> 
> ...


He ha, in my case, I don't worry about airport, not plan to travel anytime soon. I have pepper spray in my left pocket, a 3" knife(manual open to be legal) in my right pocket. Forget the pen!!! I even bought a tiny stun gun and waiting for my wife to sew my a saw belt holder for that to carry on the belt.

I actually bought a plastic knife and start practice slicing and stabbing on the heavy bag to get use to it. Not just carrying it thinking I can use it automatically.

I have options, not like OP that has to go through airport.

I don't want to have walking stick or longer ones. I thought about it. First, it is harder to use in confined space. Secondly and more importantly, it is HARD to hang on table in the restaurants. That's where I spend more of my time going out. I can hang the cane on the edge of the table, not the long stick. That, is very important for me. I have my priorities also different from OP. Having a place to hang is about on the top of my list. You seen people dropping their cane in the restaurants? It happens so often, it disrupt your dinner and conversation.

My priority is carry a lot, hopefully never have to use it.

Hell, if I expect trouble like policeman, I carry my gun. I have so many guns it's not funny. I am a good shooter that I went competition and I got the 2nd one time. To me, this is about daily life that you don't expect to have incident. Just insurance.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> *I wouldn't carry a cane as a defense weapon if I didn't need a cane to walk properly.*  If one is in need of a cane for legitimate medical reasons, there is no reason not to train with it and make it an effective self-defense weapon as well, and quite a few reasons to do so.
> 
> I don't carry my Monadnock anymore either (it's next to my bed at home) but put a random stick in my hand and a drunk attempting to pull some nonsense, and I'll put him in a figure four choke so fast it'll make his head spin.  Well actually, he'll be doing the chicken on the ground, but that's what good blood chokes do.


Why not? It is the most effective weapon that doesn't draw any attention. It's there when you need it. Nobody said you have to use the cane all the way and it's the only weapon. I even practice when comes too close, I threw away the cane and go with bare hand punching and kicking. Or if I have time, pull out the pepper spray or knife from the pockets. It's not all or nothing. It's about options. That's why I carry different things and I still practice kicking and punching bare knuckled.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

This thread is very helpful for me. I get to hear what that people would do facing the stick. Today, I've been practicing more poking(straight thrust with the tip), and practice WC step kick to the knee and round kick to the knee as combination to anticipate the opponent grabbing the cane and I attack with kicks to the knee.

I also practice if he grab the tip side of the cane, I punch with the handle to the face just like a cross but using the handle to cause more damage.


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## wab25 (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I should said baseball bat instead, I meant just holding like the Japanese sword with two hands.


The way you hold a baseball bat, is entirely different than the way you hold a Japanese sword... even though you use two hands for each.


Alan0354 said:


> To me, this is about daily life that you don't expect to have incident. Just insurance.


You carry a pepper spray, a knife, a stun gun and a cane... but the pen is too much???


Alan0354 said:


> I even practice when comes too close, I threw away the cane and *go with bare hand punching* and kicking. Or if I have time, pull out the pepper spray or knife from the pockets. It's not all or nothing.


Put a pen in that hand and suddenly your punches do a lot more damage and cause a lot more pain. 

No one here said the pen was the be all, end all. It was just suggested as something that can be used... and carried pretty much anywhere. Also they are dirt cheap, should you lose it. 

If you want to learn to use improvised weapons.... I would start by learning kubotan and yawara stick... this will teach you to use small "sticks" like pens, wrenches, rolled up magazines.... I would then learn hanbo... which will teach you to use medium size "sticks" (1-3 foot in length). You would then be able to use most things that are between 3 inches and 3 feet in length, more effectively. Further, it will make you more comfortable when in close. 

I have found the techniques from these 3 weapons quite easy to adapt to improvised weapons. Even if you are also carrying other weapons, these can be back ups. Or perhaps if you are getting on a plane... you can go through security and then buy a "souvenir" in little shop behind the security check point. You can't take you cane, stun gun, pepper spray and knife everywhere....


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## punisher73 (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> A weapon is what you use a thing for, not what it either is intended to be used for or pretends to be used for.  I try to explain that to people who are unclear on the concept of why a screwdriver can be a screwdriver, or a burglar tool, or a weapon.  It's not the thing itself; it's how it is intended to be used by the person carrying it and how it actually is used.
> 
> In that vein, there are no TSA-approved weapons.  There are things which one may take aboard a plane, which could be pressed into service for self-defense.  Under no circumstances would I refer to something I carried on my person as a weapon.



Very important distinction, especially when talking about self-defense.

In some states, a knife that would otherwise be legal to carry is now a concealed weapon if stopped and you tell the officer that you carry it for protection and not because you need it for household chores around the farm.  It is now an "intent to go armed" and you are concealing a weapon on your person. I remember one night working intake on the midnight shift and a semi-truck driver was brought in for that exact reason. 

Go to any truck stop and you can buy yourself a billy club, always sold as a "tire checker".

(Note:  I'm not saying that the charges will stick or you will be found guilty, but you could have to deal with the legal hassle of defending yourself in court).


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## Buka (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This is my rifle, this is my gun.


This is my derringer. And it's not loaded.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This is my rifle, this is my gun.


There are many like it but that one is yours…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

Buka said:


> This is my derringer. And it's not loaded.


🤣


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

I carried a D cell battery as a kid. You can put it in your fist, you can throw it, you can put it in a sock or handkerchief… it isn’t a “weapon“ unless you use it as one. Doubt you will be able to take it on the plane though.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I carried a D cell battery as a kid. You can put it in your fist, you can throw it, you can put it in a sock or handkerchief… it isn’t a “weapon“ unless you use it as one. Doubt you will be able to take it on the plane though.


Why not? They might be puzzled, but that's so far from being a weapon. That actually is a good idea. Heavier than keys I suggested, not as obvious as pad lock.

Or, get two C size, get a small flash light that use C size. Don't put the battery in. If asked, just say it's new batteries, don't have a chance to put it in yet!!! Two C size in a sock is heavy enough.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Ha ha, let's get creative. How about a small can tuna?!!! Small enough to put in a sock. Now, you cannot say it's a weapon!!! Hell, I am hungry during the flight, I can't wait but to eat!!!! Carry a small can opener too in the carry on luggage.

Or a small jar of caveat. They come in very tiny glass jar. have a small plastic spoon with you in case they ask!!!  😂 

Just say you have expensive taste.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 2, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hi Jared Traveler,
> 
> You have mentioned your arts and certs.
> You have mentioned room to use and not having it in crowds or hallways or ...
> ...


Regarding 2020 experience, I was only referencing my presence with a long handled baton at riots(because the fact that riot batons are carried was sighted by someone else to legitimize their effectiveness), I did not actually hit anyone with it there. In these situations now in law enforcement, we pretty much stand there and takes abuse. When it gets really bad, gas is deployed and those that stay and continue to throw rocks after the gas get hit with bean bag rounds. No experience with a baton there other than having to lug it around and tap to the beat on the shield. The baton actually is mostly uses to get peoples finger and hands off the shield so you retain it and dont get pulled into the crowed. My experience with batons came much earlier in my career when I actually carried one on my belt.

I agree, knives and guns are better for damage, they are also harder to take away from someone.

I'm sure you are way more proficient with a cane than me. I suspect it will work great for you if you ever need it. I just personally don't like it and don't want to carry one. And I think the same way women walk around and feel like they are prepared because they have pepper spray in their purse, a lot of dudes feel squared away because they have a cane in their hands.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, let's get creative. How about a small can tuna?!!! Small enough to put in a sock. Now, you cannot say it's a weapon!!! Hell, I am hungry during the flight, I can't wait but to eat!!!! Carry a small can opener too in the carry on luggage.
> 
> Or a small jar of caveat. They come in very tiny glass jar. have a small plastic spoon with you in case they ask!!!  😂
> 
> Just say you have expensive taste.


Sardines And crackers.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Sardines And crackers.


Hey, you took it from me!!!! 😂 

I was thinking afterwards, they have tiny sardine in cans that you pull the lid off, you don't even need to carry a can opener!!!

Do they still sell those? I never have the need for those since the college days for midnight snacks!!! I remember they had smoke oyster too!!!

Hey, Great minds think alike.👍👍👍👍


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Hey, you took it from me!!!! 😂
> 
> I was thinking afterwards, they have tiny sardine in cans that you pull the lid off, you don't even need to carry a can opener!!!
> 
> ...


I love those smoked baby clams too! 
Carry two!  one for eating and one for beating.


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## Steve (Sep 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I love those smoked baby clams too!
> Carry two!  one for eating and one for beating.


Smoked herring with an apple and maybe some cheese.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Regarding 2020 experience, I was only referencing my presence with a long handled baton at riots(because the fact that riot batons are carried was sighted by someone else to legitimize their effectiveness), I did not actually hit anyone with it there. In these situations now in law enforcement, we pretty much stand there and takes abuse. When it gets really bad, gas is deployed and those that stay and continue to throw rocks after the gas get hit with bean bag rounds. No experience with a baton there other than having to lug it around and tap to the beat on the shield. The baton actually is mostly uses to get peoples finger and hands off the shield so you retain it and dont get pulled into the crowed. My experience with batons came much earlier in my career when I actually carried one on my belt.
> 
> I agree, knives and guns are better for damage, they are also harder to take away from someone.
> 
> I'm sure you are way more proficient with a cane than me. I suspect it will work great for you if you ever need it. I just personally don't like it and don't want to carry one. And I think the same way women walk around and feel like they are prepared because they have pepper spray in their purse, a lot of dudes feel squared away because they have a cane in their hands.


Hey, forget cane and all that, I think we actually came up with something. Might be funny and joking, the sardine and stuff in small can that the lid can be pull open without using a can opener might be the ticket!!! Forget the pad lock, or even key. Two cans in two different socks, you got it.

Hey it's known airlines are not feeding people well, bringing food onto the plane should be common. Who can question you like sardine?!!!

Then the steel water bottle you already talked about. I am actually looking on Amazon.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

I am looking at steel water bottle, this is what I found:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B096RDD5BF/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?smid=AS7KLHWV0QM7M&th=1

17oz, 10" long, not too wide, have rope on the cap I can hang on my belt. Just don't know how thick is the steel.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Hey, forget cane and all that, I think we actually came up with something. Might be funny and joking, the sardine and stuff in small can that the lid can be pull open without using a can opener might be the ticket!!! Forget the pad lock, or even key. Two cans in two different socks, you got it.
> 
> Hey it's known airlines are not feeding people well, bringing food onto the plane should be common. Who can question you like sardine?!!!
> 
> Then the steel water bottle you already talked about. I am actually looking on Amazon.


The only problem with dropping something in a sock is that the sock can rip open on impact or after initial impact.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I carried a D cell battery as a kid. You can put it in your fist, you can throw it, ...


It seems to me that only you and I are thinking about "long range" weapon.

Besides long range weapon, we still need "wide cover range" weapon. A can of chili powder should do the job. Just throw at your opponent's face, the fight is over.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 3, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I carried a D cell battery as a kid. You can put it in your fist, you can throw it, you can put it in a sock or handkerchief… it isn’t a “weapon“ unless you use it as one. Doubt you will be able to take it on the plane though.


I think at the point you throw it, it would reliably be a distraction device, and if you are lucky a softening up strike. That would still have some value, but wouldn't be reliable in my opinion as a weapon you can count on if you're going to throw it. What are your thoughts on that?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The only problem with dropping something in a sock is that the sock can rip open on impact or after initial impact.


Get a thicker sock.

 Forget throwing unless you are a baseball pitcher. That's impractical.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Get a thicker sock.


And test it out.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> And test it out.


My only concern is it can stretch when you swing, meaning the length changes. Does it matter, only you can tell.

For me, this is not useful, because my daily situation is very different from yours. My main outing is restaurants, Walmart shopping etc. I don't do outdoor activity at all. A can of sardine and even water bottle will be kind of look funny for me. For me, a cane fits perfectly in my natural environment. For you, sling shot and water bottle fit well.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> My only concern is it can stretch when you swing, meaning the length changes. Does it matter, only you can tell.
> 
> For me, this is not useful, because my daily situation is very different from yours. My main outing is restaurants, Walmart shopping etc. I don't do outdoor activity at all. A can of sardine and even water bottle will be kind of look funny for me. For me, a cane fits perfectly in my natural environment. For you, sling shot and water bottle fit well.


I only carry the water bottle.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Why not? It is the most effective weapon that doesn't draw any attention. It's there when you need it. Nobody said you have to use the cane all the way and it's the only weapon. I even practice when comes too close, I threw away the cane and go with bare hand punching and kicking. Or if I have time, pull out the pepper spray or knife from the pockets. It's not all or nothing. It's about options. That's why I carry different things and I still practice kicking and punching bare knuckled.


Basically because it's my choice and a cane is a hassle whether you need it to assist walking or not. It constantly occupies one hand in a world that often calls on two hands for various things. If you're not holding it, you have to put it somewhere, then get it back again when required. As to throwing it away in a fight, I think that's asking someone to pick it up and hit you with it.

However if you carry a cane and know how to use it defensively, it's not necessary to throw it away. It's far more than a ranged bludgeoning weapon when used correctly. Jab, punch, parry, trip, lock joints, choke, and rake with the tip. It's an excellent all-round weapon. It just requires a commitment to train with it and carry it everywhere.  As to knives and pepper spray, I don't carry them. I am well armed with my two empty hands.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 3, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> The only problem with dropping something in a sock is that the sock can rip open on impact or after initial impact.


Buy darn tough. They are guaranteed for life. You are right though, that could happen.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 3, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I like poking, tripping, trapping, choking, and dragging the tip through eyes and ears and groins more than swinging a cane like a baseball bat.  I love canes.


All valid uses. I'm a fan of canes too.


Alan0354 said:


> Yes, I should said baseball bat instead, I meant just holding like the Japanese sword with two hands.


Again, no, you don't. 




The katana is gripped to optimize the slicing swing. You should be gripping your cane like a stick. A mass weapon.






You would be well advised to stop thinking there is really any commonality between swinging a cane and swinging a katana. It's not a sword of any kind. It is a club. Use it as one.


Wing Woo Gar said:


> I carried a D cell battery as a kid. You can put it in your fist, you can throw it, you can put it in a sock or handkerchief… it isn’t a “weapon“ unless you use it as one. Doubt you will be able to take it on the plane though.


You're obviously not a diver...
We do a *LOT* of diving. Most dive gear is quite robust and can take all sorts of abuse. My carryon, however, is always filled with the things that shouldn't be thrown around. GoPro, dive computers, dive lights... Like this:


That is a $1300 tech dive computer. Of which I wear two. Or this:


 That is a $2500 cannister light for cave diving. I only carry one of those, but with a minimum of three 1000 lumen backup lights. Lights are a big deal when you're diving in a cave. On high, this light puts out 8600 lumen and will do so for 5 hours. Turned down to it's lowest setting, it will burn for 100+ hours. That's a lot of battery. So I doubt anyone will get too excited about a D-cell battery...

I also put my masks in carryon, because prescription masks cannot readily be replaced mid-trip.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 3, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> All valid uses. I'm a fan of canes too.
> 
> Again, no, you don't.
> View attachment 28844
> ...


I am a certified scuba diver since 1987. I haven’t been diving in 15 years because my wife isn’t into it. I havent carried a D cell since high school. I do  seem to be the guy who gets pulled out and searched though. When returning from the Bahamas my buddy brought back a ton of Cuban cigars. He walked right through customs. I, being the rule follower that I am, did not opt to smuggle anything whatsoever. I was pulled out of line, detained, person searched, bags thoroughly searched, questioned etc. nearly missed my flight. My buddy Kurt still teases me about it. He did however, give me a cigar.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Basically because it's my choice and a cane is a hassle whether you need it to assist walking or not. It constantly occupies one hand in a world that often calls on two hands for various things. If you're not holding it, you have to put it somewhere, then get it back again when required. As to throwing it away in a fight, I think that's asking someone to pick it up and hit you with it.
> 
> However if you carry a cane and know how to use it defensively, it's not necessary to throw it away. It's far more than a ranged bludgeoning weapon when used correctly. Jab, punch, parry, trip, lock joints, choke, and rake with the tip. It's an excellent all-round weapon. It just requires a commitment to train with it and carry it everywhere.  As to knives and pepper spray, I don't carry them. I am well armed with my two empty hands.


I don't find it a hassle carrying a cane, when I need both hands, I hang it on my right forearm. Good thing about cane is you can hang on the edge of the table in the restaurant. 

Yes, if you carry a cane, you better practice. People kept thinking they carry a cane, they can use it. I trained a year and half, still have no plan to stop. It's part of my exercise routine already.

I thought you said you have problem with your health, that you cannot move around that well now a days. You mean you can still fight? I can still run around, punching and kicking bags and stick fight as my regular regiment. I still spend 7 hours a week between kick boxing, stick fight and weight training. I definitely carry a cane, pepper spray and knife everywhere I go. I don't have the confident like you thinking I can win.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> All valid uses. I'm a fan of canes too.
> 
> Again, no, you don't.
> View attachment 28844
> ...


Not true. With baseball bet, you concentrate on one big swing, you commit and swing all the way to the point you lost balance if you miss as seen on tv a lot. In stick fight, you do NOT commit 100% like this, or else you are dead meat if you miss. I don't do any of the slicing and cutting of katana, of cause that would be stupid to do that with a blunt object. BUT, that are chopping in katana also. I hold with two hands with about 1 to 2 inches apart to get better control of the cane. I practice a lot like chopping like katana. Chop from the side, but than pull back, literally reverse the movement, then chop again. It's like chopping a tree. I practice both chopping in same direction and swing right, then reverse chop( like normally people do swinging alternate direction). THIS, I actually learn from katana video to chop, pull back and choke again.

I practice a lot pulling back after chopping so I don't let the stick hang out waiting to be grabbed. I keep the stick close to my body. I use casting where the stick start close to body, swing out and reach at the same time to hit, then pull right back close to body again to finish the move. This is NOT BASEBALL swing.

I honestly cannot find one particular style to suit me, not baseball, not katana, tapado, escrima, irish stick. I watched those all. Only thing that I learn most is katana on the chopping moves, thinking of chopping trees. In fact, I don't find tapado and escrima helpful at all. tapado uses a much longer stick, escrima always swing wild, only good if it is in open space. I got turned off when I saw a competition on escrima where both wacking each other stupid from beginning till end. They both still standing afterwards. Granted they wore some protective gear, but still. With one hand swinging a light rattan, there's no stopping power.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't find it a hassle carrying a cane, when I need both hands, I hang it on my right forearm. Good thing about cane is you can hang on the edge of the table in the restaurant.
> 
> Yes, if you carry a cane, you better practice. People kept thinking they carry a cane, they can use it. I trained a year and half, still have no plan to stop. It's part of my exercise routine already.
> 
> I thought you said you have problem with your health, that you cannot move around that well now a days. You mean you can still fight? I can still run around, punching and kicking bags and stick fight as my regular regiment. I still spend 7 hours a week between kick boxing, stick fight and weight training. I definitely carry a cane, pepper spray and knife everywhere I go. I don't have the confident like you thinking I can win.


I have an altered gait due to neuropathy in my feet and I'm a heart patient.  I don't use a cane permanently but I have and probably will need on again. 

Of course I can fight. I have my hands. No one can hit or touch me unless I permit it. I can't imagine needing anything else. No one tries to attack me. The thing about EDC weapons is one, they're weapons I don't need. Two, you have to carry them and I'm far too lazy. 

Tuite means anyone touches me they hit the ground hard. I don't need anything else.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I have an altered gait due to neuropathy in my feet and I'm a heart patient.  I don't use a cane permanently but I have and probably will need on again.
> 
> Of course I can fight. I have my hands. No one can hit or touch me unless I permit it. I can't imagine needing anything else. No one tries to attack me. The thing about EDC weapons is one, they're weapons I don't need. Two, you have to carry them and I'm far too lazy.
> 
> Tuite means anyone touches me they hit the ground hard. I don't need anything else.


Good for you.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Good for you.


Sorry to disappoint you. Did you expect me to say I can't defend myself?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 3, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Sorry to disappoint you. Did you expect me to say I can't defend myself?


No, just a question since you said you have problem walking. Don't be so defensive.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 4, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I am a certified scuba diver since 1987. I haven’t been diving in 15 years because my wife isn’t into it. I havent carried a D cell since high school. I do  seem to be the guy who gets pulled out and searched though. When returning from the Bahamas my buddy brought back a ton of Cuban cigars. He walked right through customs. I, being the rule follower that I am, did not opt to smuggle anything whatsoever. I was pulled out of line, detained, person searched, bags thoroughly searched, questioned etc. nearly missed my flight. My buddy Kurt still teases me about it. He did however, give me a cigar.


You and me both. My wife thinks it's because I don't like crowds, so I am always looking around to see if anyone nearby is about to be stupid. She thinks that makes me look suspicious to the TSA goons. The upshot is I have a 100% record of being "randomly" pulled out. 100%. I have not made it through without a colonoscopy once.


Alan0354 said:


> Not true. With baseball bet, you concentrate on one big swing, you commit and swing all the way to the point you lost balance if you miss as seen on tv a lot. In stick fight, you do NOT commit 100% like this, or else you are dead meat if you miss.


This has nothing whatsoever to do with how you grip the bat. And it's not even correct. Sure, some people will swing for the fences. But those people will likely swing the same way regardless of what specific blunt force weapon they're using. Because that's all they know how to do.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You and me both. My wife thinks it's because I don't like crowds, so I am always looking around to see if anyone nearby is about to be stupid. She thinks that makes me look suspicious to the TSA goons. The upshot is I have a 100% record of being "randomly" pulled out. 100%. I have not made it through without a colonoscopy once.
> 
> This has nothing whatsoever to do with how you grip the bat. And it's not even correct. Sure, some people will swing for the fences. But those people will likely swing the same way regardless of what specific blunt force weapon they're using. Because that's all they know how to do.


Me too
100% Random Check here as well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> The idea of cloth with pad lock is good if you know how to swing it. Why no using keys? Just put a few extra keys to make up the weight. You can even use a chain to hang on your belt like in the older days. Hang on the belt and keys in the pocket. Pull it out and swing.
> 
> Tactical pen is not very useful and obvious.
> 
> I take that you don't like cane. I know, a lot of men don't like cane because it make them look old and weak. My stepson is like that, he really need the cane because he has foot problem. I even offered him one of mine and he refused to even touch it.


I’d think for keys on a chain to be much of a weapon, the keys would need to weigh more than a padlock, since the bunch of keys will hit with less impact (not a solid mass). That’s a lot of keys.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 4, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I’d think for keys on a chain to be much of a weapon, the keys would need to weigh more than a padlock, since the bunch of keys will hit with less impact (not a solid mass). That’s a lot of keys.


Ha ha, we already moved on to a can of sardine in a sock. The kind of can that the lid can be pulled off without the need of a can opener. So it looks more natural as food in flights is getting worst and worst or not even providing food.


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## drop bear (Sep 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> This has nothing whatsoever to do with how you grip the bat. And it's not even correct. Sure, some people will swing for the fences. But those people will likely swing the same way regardless of what specific blunt force weapon they're using. Because that's all they know how to do.



I was going to do this thing about the difference between a shinai and a katana in arts like kendo.

But I got so bored with the nuances that I couldn't sit through the video.

Hold one end hit them with the other.

When sword fighters start winning sword fights then mabye people can come back to me about the advantages of grip a vs grip b.


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## Buka (Sep 4, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You and me both. My wife thinks it's because I don't like crowds, so I am always looking around to see if anyone nearby is about to be stupid. She thinks that makes me look suspicious to the TSA goons. The upshot is I have a 100% record of being "randomly" pulled out. 100%. I have not made it through without a colonoscopy once.
> 
> This has nothing whatsoever to do with how you grip the bat. And it's not even correct. Sure, some people will swing for the fences. But those people will likely swing the same way regardless of what specific blunt force weapon they're using. Because that's all they know how to do.


I get pulled out of TSA lines all the time. I have no idea why. Probably untrustworthy looking, I dunno'. 
I also always get asked why I have a handcuff key on my key ring. I usually tell them it's part of a magic trick.

All the fun will stop now that I'm retired. Can't screw with them anymore.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 5, 2022)

Buka said:


> I get pulled out of TSA lines all the time. I have no idea why. Probably untrustworthy looking, I dunno'.
> I also always get asked why I have a handcuff key on my key ring. I usually tell them it's part of a magic trick.
> 
> All the fun will stop now that I'm retired. Can't screw with them anymore.


I had one TSA agent who insisted I had to turn on all my dive lights to prove they were actually lights. So I started by turning on the cannister light. The one that puts out 8600 lumen. Aimed to ensure they could see it light up...

I didn't have to turn on the others.


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## Buka (Sep 5, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> I had one TSA agent who insisted I had to turn on all my dive lights to prove they were actually lights. So I started by turning on the cannister light. The one that puts out 8600 lumen. Aimed to ensure they could see it light up...
> 
> I didn't have to turn on the others.


God, I so love that.


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## wab25 (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I practice a lot like chopping like katana. Chop from the side, but than pull back, literally reverse the movement, then chop again. *It's like chopping a tree*. I practice both chopping in same direction and swing right, then reverse chop( like normally people do swinging alternate direction). *THIS, I actually learn from katana video to chop*, pull back and choke again.


Anyone teaching you to chop with a katana, has no idea how to use a katana. Katana are very bad at chopping. You will ruin the sword, very quickly by chopping. 

Question about carrying a sardine can in a sock.... Are you going to actually keep the sardine cane in the sock? Doing this means, you intend to use it as weapon.... people don't generally keep food in their socks. How many situations are you likely to be in, where an attacker will initiate an attack, but then allow you the time to use both of your hands to shove a sardine can into a sock?

The sardine can in a sock would be a great weapon... if you carry it already assembled in weapon form. I would argue that if you have time to assemble your weapon... you have time to get away from the situation... without a fight.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You and me both. My wife thinks it's because I don't like crowds, so I am always looking around to see if anyone nearby is about to be stupid. She thinks that makes me look suspicious to the TSA goons. The upshot is I have a 100% record of being "randomly" pulled out. 100%. I have not made it through without a colonoscopy once.
> 
> This has nothing whatsoever to do with how you grip the bat. And it's not even correct. Sure, some people will swing for the fences. But those people will likely swing the same way regardless of what specific blunt force weapon they're using. Because that's all they know how to do.


I don’t like a hot press in a crowd at all. I avoid it anytime I can. My wife has gotten to know when I’m getting full up. She also never makes take the seat with my back to the door, because I don’t pay attention to anything else otherwise.


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## Olde Phart (Sep 6, 2022)

Though I seriously doubt it would pass TSA inspection if I was flying, I carry a home-made walking stick when I do my exercise -walk around the outside of a local mall early in the morning.  It tapers from an inch at the bottom to about a inch-and-a-half at the top and is nearly 6 feet long, which is my height.  Harvested it from a dead limb in a state park (don't tell anyone!).  Put a rubber tip from a CANE on the bottom end so it wouldn't slip on the pavement.  Even a paracord grip on the top.  It looks like I need it for balance, so no probs with the mall security that drives around (I'm a regular).  And, yes, I'm over 60 . . . so I'm OLD according to some of you.  Kinda reminds me of a "bo" if you catch my drift!


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Anyone teaching you to chop with a katana, has no idea how to use a katana. Katana are very bad at chopping. You will ruin the sword, very quickly by chopping.
> 
> Question about carrying a sardine can in a sock.... Are you going to actually keep the sardine cane in the sock? Doing this means, you intend to use it as weapon.... people don't generally keep food in their socks. How many situations are you likely to be in, where an attacker will initiate an attack, but then allow you the time to use both of your hands to shove a sardine can into a sock?
> 
> The sardine can in a sock would be a great weapon... if you carry it already assembled in weapon form. I would argue that if you have time to assemble your weapon... you have time to get away from the situation... without a fight.


I did see in video they have moves like chopping. I don't use any other moves from katana, just the chopping move. I practice the chop and pull back like reversing the chopping motion. That is definitely the move of katana I watched, not a baseball bet swing.

Can in the sock is NOT any more obvious than padlock with cloth originally talked about. The only thing that less obvious is key on a long chain hang on the belt and keys in the pocket like in the older days where people have those pocket watch.

OP doesn't like cane, option is very limited getting on the plane. It's not as if you have better option to choose from.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

Olde Phart said:


> Though I seriously doubt it would pass TSA inspection if I was flying, I carry a home-made walking stick when I do my exercise -walk around the outside of a local mall early in the morning.  It tapers from an inch at the bottom to about a inch-and-a-half at the top and is nearly 6 feet long, which is my height.  Harvested it from a dead limb in a state park (don't tell anyone!).  Put a rubber tip from a CANE on the bottom end so it wouldn't slip on the pavement.  Even a paracord grip on the top.  It looks like I need it for balance, so no probs with the mall security that drives around (I'm a regular).  And, yes, I'm over 60 . . . so I'm OLD according to some of you.  Kinda reminds me of a "bo" if you catch my drift!


OP said it strongly he refuses to carry a stick or cane. That absolutely would be my first and only choice. I carry a cane, stick like you said is way too long for me and hard to work with in confined space.


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## wab25 (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I did see in video they have moves like chopping. I don't use any other moves from katana, just the chopping move. I practice the chop and pull back like reversing the chopping motion. That is definitely the move of katana I watched, not a baseball bet swing.


There are two possibilities... 1. The person you watched does not know how to use a katana... or 2. You do not understand what you saw. If you chop with a katana, like chopping a tree, you will break the katana.



Alan0354 said:


> OP doesn't like cane, option is very limited getting on the plane. It's not as if you have better option to choose from.


Getting a pen on a plane is easy. It does not have to be shoved into a sock to use. It can be used in very close quarters (such as on a plane)... it might actually be easier to use on a plane than a cane.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> There are two possibilities... 1. The person you watched does not know how to use a katana... or 2. You do not understand what you saw. If you chop with a katana, like chopping a tree, you will break the katana.
> 
> 
> Getting a pen on a plane is easy. It does not have to be shoved into a sock to use. It can be used in very close quarters (such as on a plane)... it might actually be easier to use on a plane than a cane.


I don't know where you learn, this video started with chopping:





More chopping in demo:





Even have qualifications:






NOBODY said katana is about chopping, BUT it has chopping moves. Just take the moves that fit for blunt instrument like a cane. They have a lot of moves that is not fit for cane, but the chopping part does. I can't find the particular video that the person pull back and chop down the same way the first time, but I find it useful for more confined space so one doesn't swing wild.

One has to THINK and pick out moves that work and ignore those that doesn't. It's is NOT BLINDLY either katana and use ALL the moves or not using Katana. Just like I learn some combination from escrima even though they swing with one hand. YOU take the best part from each style to mix into practice, not blindly just choose one all the way. This is NOT the older days that you either follow completely one style or nothing.

Honestly, I have NOT find any one way to represent cane fight, even baseball bet swinging is NOT exactly useful. It's just the idea of swinging that is useful. One need to ADAPT, pick what is useful and ignore those that doesn't. Just like MMA, they pick out ONLY the part that is effective and useful from different styles, then integrate into their own.


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## wab25 (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> NOBODY said katana is about chopping, BUT it has chopping moves


You are not understanding what you are watching. Those are not chopping moves, they are cuts. There are some very important differences. If you use your cane the same way, you would not be doing the amount of damage your cane should be doing, because you would be cutting with it. 

What little I know about katana (and I stress, what little I know) I learned from this guy: (if you know where to look, I am in one of the pictures with him) He helped my set up my DZR school, and the last years of his life, we taught at the same dojo...






If you want to learn how to use a cane... learn to use a hanbo. It will teach you a lot of different ways to use a short stick or cane.... both to strike and to grapple.... both at distance and up close.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> You are not understanding what you are watching. Those are not chopping moves, they are cuts. There are some very important differences. If you use your cane the same way, you would not be doing the amount of damage your cane should be doing, because you would be cutting with it.
> 
> What little I know about katana (and I stress, what little I know) I learned from this guy: (if you know where to look, I am in one of the pictures with him) He helped my set up my DZR school, and the last years of his life, we taught at the same dojo...
> 
> ...


Looks chopping to me, they chop those stuff. Maybe you have a special name for those. It's chopping to me AND they chop hard.

Like I said many times, I take that one part of the katana, not the rest of all the cutting. Just like the front step kick to the knee that is being used a lot in UFC fights. That is one move straight out of Wing Chung. That doesn't mean they have to learn and use all the rest of wing chung. Front leg step kicks to the knee does NOT define WC, their main thing is sticky hands and the others. Step kick is just one move. But MMA took that and becomes a major strike.

I need to watch Hanbo, I just got a video, I have to watch it more to judge. Thanks

One thing is Hanbo I saw use a straight stick so they can use both ends and mirror the moves. Cane has a handle, one cannot mirror the moves completely. I have to worry about the crook end might catch on the opponent or the opponent grab the crook and pull it from me. You get a stronger grip if you grab the handle. That's the reason I try not to turn the cane around and use the handle to hit even though it can do a lot more damage. I worry about being grabbed or even accidentally catch on something and pull it off my hands. That's the down fall of an asymmetrical stick like a crook cane.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I did see in video they have moves like chopping.


No. You see movements that you misinterpret as chopping because you don't understand what they're actually doing.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Why not? They might be puzzled, but that's so far from being a weapon. That actually is a good idea. Heavier than keys I suggested, not as obvious as pad lock.
> 
> Or, get two C size, get a small flash light that use C size. Don't put the battery in. If asked, just say it's new batteries, don't have a chance to put it in yet!!! Two C size in a sock is heavy enough.


Part of the cane thing goes back to what Bill said above. If you really need it, it can be a hassle. I'm guessing I'm younger than both of you at mid-thirties, but I've needed a cane since aged 16 due to birth disabilities. 

Don't get me wrong, I've learned to enjoy canes for what they are, including training (poorly) to fight with one. But when you need them to take a step, as I do, using one daily for over half my life... There are moments where it can  become tiresome needing it to hand or nearby. 

I don't really remember what it was like to use both hands while standing up (not leaning on anything) but I'm sure I used to do that. 

I think it's easier to look at a cane a different way if you don't need it, and I mean really need it. From your comments, I get the impression you're quite spry no matter your age. You could probably toss the cane and it wouldn't affect much, including your ability to defend yourself using the basics of your body. 

It's a little different if you can't do that, though. I'm pleased that Bill is able to look after himself sans stick as well. 

I've taken some nice canes on a plane, but it's only a small perk really.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> No. You see movements that you misinterpret as chopping because you don't understand what they're actually doing.


Disagree. That's chopping. PERIOD. DO NOT SAY I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

You saw the video I posted? Maybe be you give those another name.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> Part of the cane thing goes back to what Bill said above. If you really need it, it can be a hassle. I'm guessing I'm younger than both of you at mid-thirties, but I've needed a cane since aged 16 due to birth disabilities.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I've learned to enjoy canes for what they are, including training (poorly) to fight with one. But when you need them to take a step, as I do, using one daily for over half my life... There are moments where it can  become tiresome needing it to hand or nearby.
> 
> ...


I don't really get what you are trying to say. Almost seems like those that need a cane to walk feel offended if someone carry a cane not for walking.  What I do has nothing to do with those that need a cane.

I pick up a cane since the beginning of last year when older Asians are being attacked on the street. And I practice hard in using the cane as stick fight. I am not going to say I have a few years in MA and I can defend myself, bad things happens when one is over confident even though I still practice MA and exercise 7 hours a week. A cane and practice how to use it can only help.

 I am not going to comment on how others feel, I can only speak for myself that I DO NOT under estimate the opponent and I do not think too highly of myself that I can defend myself bare handed. Those that think they can confidently defending themselves, good for them. I always practice and prepare. Particular now that I am getting old and slowing down no matter how hard I try. I can use all the help I can get.

I hope people don't get offended when others that don't need a cane but carrying one. This has nothing to do with you needing a cane. It's all about how I feel to prepare myself.


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## Olde Phart (Sep 6, 2022)

Umm.  I'm a little lost here.  Help me out.  From the OP we had a question about weapons we could improvise from or at least get on a plane with.  I mean, the thread is titled MY TSA APPROVED IMPROVISED WEAPON CHOICE.  Somehow, it has found a fork in the road and, rather than just picking it up and moving on, we've jumped down a rabbit hole willingly into a stern discussion about katanas.  I haven't traveled via plane in the last couple of years, but I'm pretty sure a wood or even a plastic katana would never make it into the cabin area of a plane.


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## wab25 (Sep 6, 2022)

Here is a reasonable break down of how to cut with a katana (posting the first of a multi-part series). The point of all these little nuances is to prevent the user from chopping... but to instead cut or slice with the katana.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Looks chopping to me, they chop those stuff. Maybe you have a special name for those. It's chopping to me AND they chop hard.
> 
> Like I said many times, I take that one part of the katana, not the rest of all the cutting. Just like the front step kick to the knee that is being used a lot in UFC fights. That is one move straight out of Wing Chung. That doesn't mean they have to learn and use all the rest of wing chung. Front leg step kicks to the knee does NOT define WC, their main thing is sticky hands and the others. Step kick is just one move. But MMA took that and becomes a major strike.
> 
> ...


They look like a chopping motion, but aren’t. Chopping won’t cut those bunches.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Disagree. That's chopping. PERIOD. DO NOT SAY I DON'T UNDERSTAND.
> 
> You saw the video I posted? Maybe be you give those another name.


But you do not understand. Using caps doesn't change it. 

And yes, a different name. Cutting. As already stated.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But you do not understand. Using caps doesn't change it.
> 
> And yes, a different name. Cutting. As already stated.


I just look the motion and I use it. Whether there is a little slicing during the chop is small difference. Obvious it's useless to put slicing motion with the cane.

Nothing fit perfect, I yet to find anything that is 100% for using with a cane. This motion sure a lot closer and better than analogy of swinging a baseball bet. It's the closest I can find.


Gerry Seymour said:


> They look like a chopping motion, but aren’t. Chopping won’t cut those bunches.


Like I said, I just use the chopping motion, forget the little slicing. It's the closest I can find for stick fight with two hands.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Here is a reasonable break down of how to cut with a katana (posting the first of a multi-part series). The point of all these little nuances is to prevent the user from chopping... but to instead cut or slice with the katana.


My point is nothing fits perfect for stick, it's obvious that cutting motion is useless. But at least the chopping movement of the katana is closer than the baseball bet swing. I look at the effectiveness of the chopping movement of the katana, who cares about the little detail of a little bit of slicing. Point is I integrate into the stick fight, at least it's a lot closer than swinging the baseball bet.

Nothing fits perfect. In your video, he talked about using a little hip. In stick fight, I need to use a whole lot more, the hip the legs, just like punching that you use the whole body to generate the power. The stick don't have the edge to cut, so the raw power is the most important.
It is hard to find any style that is for cane. Most of them are just too fancy. You would think like Tapado would be good or even Hanbo. Tapado uses a longer stick and keep hitting the ground to bounce back. I watched Hanbo, like I said the cane is asymmetrical and the hook handle can catch on something while hitting and pull off from the hand. You really cannot do symmetrical mirror motion with a cane. Also, the way they hold the stick with both thumbs facing inward, you really cannot swing that fast either way.

Here is the video I recorded like *9 months ago, *I improved a lot( I hope) since. Since the video, I concentrate on hitting(or chopping) the knee instead of the head because it's harder to grab the cane if I hit low.   But you can see I already use something like Hanbo type of striking. But because of the crook end, I use the end of the crook like an extended fist punching the bag.





It's not easy to find any style that fits the cane, just have to take a little here and there to make it fit. I yet to find any style that I like enough to get deeper into. I added in kicking in the mix in case they try to grab the stick, mainly low WC step kick to the knee or round kick to the knee. I just feel it's a lot harder to defend attacks to the lower body and hard to grab the cane when hitting low. I put in more body into the strike also since.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2022)

I don’t understand the general disrespect for TSA agents.  When I’m traveling, I never get messed with by TSA and nothing irritates me more than jackwagons who are causing trouble when I’m just trying to get through security so I can get to my gate.  Why some of you think that’s something to be proud of is a mystery to me.  

If you don’t know why you’re getting pulled out of line regularly, you may want to do some self reflection.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2022)

Olde Phart said:


> Umm.  I'm a little lost here.  Help me out.  From the OP we had a question about weapons we could improvise from or at least get on a plane with.  I mean, the thread is titled MY TSA APPROVED IMPROVISED WEAPON CHOICE.  Somehow, it has found a fork in the road and, rather than just picking it up and moving on, we've jumped down a rabbit hole willingly into a stern discussion about katanas.  I haven't traveled via plane in the last couple of years, but I'm pretty sure a wood or even a plastic katana would never make it into the cabin area of a plane.


I wish I’d skipped the last several pages entirely.  I didn’t make it past the posturing around who gives TSA the hardest time.  Reads like old guys longing to be viewed as dangerous.  I’ll take nitpicking over cutting vs chopping over that all day long.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don’t understand the general disrespect for TSA agents.  When I’m traveling, I never get messed with by TSA and nothing irritates me more than jackwagons who are causing trouble when I’m just trying to get through security so I can get to my gate.  Why some of you think that’s something to be proud of is a mystery to me.
> 
> If you don’t know why you’re getting pulled out of line regularly, you may want to do some self reflection.


I think it's random, just by like 1 out of 10 etc. Some people just unlucky to be #10 all the time. I think I got pull over one time. Just a random draw. They make it a strong point not to type cast.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think it's random, just by like 1 out of 10 etc. Some people just unlucky to be #10 all the time. I think I got pull over one time. Just a random draw. They make it a strong point not to type cast.


well I mean yeah.  But they also pull people who seem suspicious for some reason or another.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> well I mean yeah.  But they also pull people who seem suspicious for some reason or another.


I saw just as much women being searched. I did not see them any more threatening just by looking at them.

BTW, I think the tread has long run out of steam already. OP got his answer, really not much to talk about anymore unless someone comes up with some new ideas. It's slow here, we are just all ranting.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> well I mean yeah.  But they also pull people who seem suspicious for some reason or another.


I actually don’t mind it, I just wonder what it is that I’m doing that makes get called out. I am the most rule following, law abiding square of all time for like 30 years. I’ve been all the way down to my shorts twice in the airport. Once was with my mother. She was more embarrassed than I was. Wait, I don’t mean they stripped me in front of everybody(they have a screen) Just that it was embarrassing to get searched.


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## Steve (Sep 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I actually don’t mind it, I just wonder what it is that I’m doing that makes get called out. I am the most rule following, law abiding square of all time for like 30 years. I’ve been all the way down to my shorts twice in the airport. Once was with my mother. She was more embarrassed than I was. Wait, I don’t mean they stripped me in front of everybody(they have a screen) Just that it was embarrassing to get searched.


I don’t know man. But I’m guessing you’re doing something.  I travel relatively frequently for work.  Tbh, it’s the war stories people are telling about jacking with the TSA agents that  really got to me.  The very idea that someone would jerk them around is irritating.  These same guys are all about respecting LEO. bugs me.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 6, 2022)

Boarder guards while driving;
TSA at airports
Customs officers after TSA first line 

When they are operating just fine and they ask a question and get it from me and then proceed all can be fine. 
Seldom happens. 

A large male, traveling with electronics and devices (boxes) that plug into cars and laptops to collect data, no glasses, no jewelry, being 6'3+" and being 250 to 280 lbs when I did most of the traveling put me into their prescreen category . Add in my slightly darker skin and dark / black hair and beard and not drinking alcohol as I have a diagnosed genetic liver condition. 

I even did the TSA Prescreen, and retinal scan and still get asked to step aside for "reasons" even if personal and not work electronics. 

I have talked to some and they told me the above profile. 
The Air Marshals that I know also have told me the profile. 

What gets me is the following:
Agent 1: Yelling to crown only put loose items in the bins put your shoes and jackets separately
Agent 2 standing right next to them : Yelling put everything into a bin
Agent 3: Yelling something else but unable to hear them over the PA and the other yelling agents. 

Once you get to metal detector, they wave you forward. 
I have been yelled at as the officer said he never gave me a verbal command. 
So I stepped back. And I waited. 

Even today, I stand there and wait. They get upset and say I waved you forward. 
I reply, I have been yelled at and taken aside because I stepped forward for such a wave. 
And then sometimes you have two agents one with hand up and other with wave 
or the stop and the go at the same time. 

And if they get snippy, I turn the the sergeant o team lead usually sitting off to the side and then speak loud enough for everyone to hear me. 
And I explain I am confused and I point at Agent 1 and repeat what they are saying and then agent 2 and and so on. 
Almost always the person in charge just smirks and waves me on. 
And I stand there and tell them if they all had the same instructions it would be a lot less confusing. 

I have flown into Mexican airports with the military(Rifles et al )  present for Drug Lord threats and they were much more consistent and process oriented. 
I have flown into Germany where they all had small machine guns / large machine pistols on them and stationed well for fields of cover and to avoid cross fire. 


LA flying internationally forces the passengers to clear customs and internationally checks at original airport and then once at LA exit, obtain their luggage and then repeat the process, many times with little to know time for connection. 1 to 2 hours. 

The inconsistency is what gets me. 
The attitudes of they will mess my day up if I ask a question, or pause a moment to verify a command they have given. 

I am not proud of any of this. 
I am just making people aware of it. 

Just like I pointed out the officer who pulled me over for speeding in my subdivision while I was doping 16 in a 25. 
I asked why, his response well I have a convertible so it must be me the complaints are about. 

I explained they should sit at time X and Y in the morning for the soccer moms and dads trying to get their kids to school.
And the same for the afternoon, when they would be coming home and or heading back out for after school events. 

He spent the next few days writing tickets. 

Yet, I also complained when the police officers for the township across the major road for the subdivision exit pulled people over , and the profile was non white. The Sub I live in is very well mixed. The sub across the street and in the that township is about 1 to 2 % total minority. 

The chief who happened to answer the door knock when I asked for the fix it ticket as one of the two white lights for my plate was out. Michigan only requires one, manufactures put two for just in case. 
I explained her stop and her surprise when I rolled down passenger window and knew she was there. 
Not upset for her safety Upset she fell into my truck and her gear on her belt scratched my vehicle. 
And then she was angry that I knew where she was. 
She had crossed her own spot. It was obvious. 
He listened to me. I told him that I had seen her the last three knights before my stop pulling over other people. 
All Black or Indian from India. 
He said I was going to get her back on days to ride with someone. As I was not the only complaint.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 6, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don’t know man. But I’m guessing you’re doing something.  I travel relatively frequently for work.  Tbh, it’s the war stories people are telling about jacking with the TSA agents that  really got to me.  The very idea that someone would jerk them around is irritating.  These same guys are all about respecting LEO. bugs me.


I get that. I’m not trippin at all just makes me wonder. I get to airport, and anywhere I go, EARLY.  Then I’m never in a hurry. I never get tickets because I dont speed. I pay attention and I leave early. I am what you might refer to as “squared away” so I don’t have that sort of problem. I do however tend to attract tsa attention. I never give guff, I just cooperate. I’ve got time if they do.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 6, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I get that. I’m not trippin at all just makes me wonder. I get to airport, and anywhere I go, EARLY.  Then I’m never in a hurry. I never get tickets because I dont speed. I pay attention and I leave early. I am what you might refer to as “squared away” so I don’t have that sort of problem. I do however tend to attract tsa attention. *I never give guff, I just cooperate*. I’ve got time if they do.


That's the best way. The more you confront them, the more they antagonize you. It's set up that they have a lot of power and leeway to check and search. The more you make a scene, the more they can detain you. It's like driving on the road, police can stop you for speeding driving 26mph at a 25mile zone. They can really do that and it will hold up in court. It is up to the discretion  of the police. They might let you get away driving 50 at a 35 zone, or they can ticket you at 36. The more one argue, the more they get delay. They have the whole day making your life difficult and they get to go home on time. It's you that miss the flight.

Unfair, yes, but that's life. I got stop in the airport one time, but that was fast. No delay, just double checked and I got to move on.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't really get what you are trying to say. Almost seems like those that need a cane to walk feel offended if someone carry a cane not for walking.  What I do has nothing to do with those that need a cane.
> 
> I pick up a cane since the beginning of last year when older Asians are being attacked on the street. And I practice hard in using the cane as stick fight. I am not going to say I have a few years in MA and I can defend myself, bad things happens when one is over confident even though I still practice MA and exercise 7 hours a week. A cane and practice how to use it can only help.
> 
> ...


Not offended, at least speaking personally. But I'll try to choose my words wisely because I do think this is complex issue. 

I'll preface this by saying that I think in a perfect world, you should be able to carry whatever you like, including things classed as actual weapons. But, we don't live in that world. So, with different restrictions in different countries around the globe, there's this cottage industry that has grown up around the idea of looking for things that you can press into service as weapons pretty much anywhere with no restrictions.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that on the face of it, and as an exercise in learning more, I look for these topics myself. As a disabled cane-user, though, I have some more nuanced thoughts about the seeming rise of the cane as "everybody's weapon of choice" in recent decades. I know cane fighting has been a niche in MA since before I was born, but selling canes as _primarily defensive tools _seems to have really taken off in the past few years. That's not necessarily bad, but the whole reason behind it is that canes are innocuous and _traditionally associated with infirmity, age, or both. _While they can be dangerous in trained hands, the whole point of their popularity today is "no one will look twice because cane."

And I get that appeal, especially since it gives one the freedom to go anywhere in the world with it. What I don't want to happen, as unlikely as it may be, is for people to start seeing canes as primarily weapons. It could cause trouble for people like me, and I have enough of that just being a disabled guy in this world. I think that is probably unlikely given that there aren't _that many _people carrying canes in the streets today.

But, researching canes as I do, I've come across quite a few companies that encourage pretty much anyone to buy canes just to carry around. It's not for me to say whether that is right or wrong, but I will say that it does kind of rub me the wrong way (again, not enough to be offended by it). There's even one company that--for an extra fee of course--will send you a laminated card you can show people that says your cane is a medical device and they can't hassle you about it. Numbers printed on the card in case of trouble, including the number to the ADA, which is a document and not an organization. I still don't know what that phone number goes to. 

No such card is necessary, at least not yet. Further, it kind of rubs me the wrong way that this company is catering to people who want canes for defense and outright telling them to make it look like a medical issue as much as possible. That's an indictment of the company more so than it is anyone who wants to carry a cane, but it's still one that I think bears talking about.

I'm not offended by people who want to carry a cane that never touches the ground. I just don't fully understand it. If I didn't need a cane to walk and maintain my balance, I could do a thousand other things that are excellent for self-defense that I can't do today, and the cane would be unnecessary--it wouldn't enter my mind to even purchase or carry one with me because my options would be greatly expanded already. 

There's value in finding force multipliers not classed as weapons, surely. But, I sometimes think people without any physical issues, strong and abled men particularly, don't realize just how many options they have at their disposal just by... being normal. I think many people who are desperately searching for innocuous weapons (which is not to say you are desperate, by any means) don't realize just what kind of playing field they are on already. I don't envy that; I'm happy for them.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don’t know man. But I’m guessing you’re doing something.  I travel relatively frequently for work.  Tbh, it’s the war stories people are telling about jacking with the TSA agents that  really got to me.  The very idea that someone would jerk them around is irritating.  These same guys are all about respecting LEO. bugs me.



I've only traveled a few times in my life to places where I would need to deal with the TSA. I'm disabled and non-threatening, and I usually have airport staff with me to help, so everything goes pretty much smoothly. Even if it did not, I am too anxious during travel to bother hassling the TSA about anything. 

There's one thing that sometimes happens with them that does bug me, though. It's those rare occasions on which I'm following all of the rules posted, but the agent that day decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want to. As an example, last year there were very clearly posted rules an airport I was going through. I had to put different, specific items in different bins, rather than stuffing as much as one can in one bin as is usually the case. I thought that was overkill, but rules are rules, and I'm prepared to follow.

TSA agent proceeds to yell at me for doing that and demanding that I repack everything I'd been sorting into a different bin. Also no problem. It takes me a while to get through screening with my disability, and I'm too anxious to give them hassle out the signs that are posted quite clearly. It did grate on me that I got yelled at for doing my best to follow proper procedures, however. If I'm following the rules, particularly trying hard not to make their lives more miserable, I don't think I should get yelled at for that.

I've never been pulled out of line or questioned, but the one thing I think should be granted is a modicum of politeness if I'm trying to follow their rules. That's all I'll say about that.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> Not offended, at least speaking personally. But I'll try to choose my words wisely because I do think this is complex issue.
> 
> I'll preface this by saying that I think in a perfect world, you should be able to carry whatever you like, including things classed as actual weapons. But, we don't live in that world. So, with different restrictions in different countries around the globe, there's this cottage industry that has grown up around the idea of looking for things that you can press into service as weapons pretty much anywhere with no restrictions.
> 
> ...


People that can walk normal still have the right and can be benefited with a cane as a self defense weapon. To be blunt, I worry about my safety first, I cannot say I am not going to carry a cane just because I make the ones that need the cane more vulnerable. How about me at 69 has to walk the street where so many older Chinese are being attacked for no reason? I cannot worry about what cane companies sales tactics, I never even listen to any of those, All I know is I am older, I cannot rely on my bare knuckles to protect myself and my wife.

As for practice, it would be a big mistake for people just carry the cane and think they can protect themselves. I have been practice for a year and half, I have no plan to slow down. You saw the video I posted on my cane hitting the heavy bags, that was 9 months ago, I never slow down since.

There is another reason to choose cane. It is NOT as deadly as knife or gun. It is more effective than pocket knifes. I practice hitting the legs as it's not as deadly, but at the same time can slow the attacker down so I can get away. Also, it's harder for the attacker to grab my cane when I hit low. I cannot sacrifice the best defensive weapon worry about how it make other people feel and look. OP doesn't think cane is useful, I disagree. Short of guns, a cane is as good an alternative as anything I can think of if not better.

i also carry pepper spray in my left pocket and a folding knife in my right pocket. If I lose my cane in the middle of the fight, then I have no choice but to pull out the deadlier weapon. I do practice knife on heavy bag with a plastic knife. I don't just carry and think that I can use it when needed. I don't want to be over confident and under estimate the opponent. Always think of a back up plan.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> People that can walk normal still have the right and can be benefited with a cane as a self defense weapon. To be blunt, I worry about my safety first, I cannot say I am not going to carry a cane just because I make the ones that need the cane more vulnerable. How about me at 69 has to walk the street where so many older Chinese are being attacked for no reason? I cannot worry about what cane companies sales tactics, I never even listen to any of those, All I know is I am older, I cannot rely on my bare knuckles to protect myself and my wife.
> 
> As for practice, it would be a big mistake for people just carry the cane and think they can protect themselves. I have been practice for a year and half, I have no plan to slow down. You saw the video I posted on my cane hitting the heavy bags, that was 9 months ago, I never slow down since.
> 
> There is another reason to choose cane. It is NOT as deadly as knife or gun. It is more effective than pocket knifes. I practice hitting the legs as it's not as deadly, but at the same time can slow the attacker down so I can get away. Also, it's harder for the attacker to grab my cane when I hit low. I cannot sacrifice the best defensive weapon worry about how it make other people feel and look. OP doesn't think cane is useful, I disagree. Short of guns, a cane is as good an alternative as anything I can think of if not better.



I'm not suggesting you should consider the actually infirm who need canes in order to function in society. What I'm suggesting is that people like that--like me--almost always think of canes in a totally different way than you do, and with good reason. You might be getting older, as we all are, but your options are almost limitless compared to someone like me. 

Getting into an actual fight, with any hope of winning, often involves being able to have good balance and footwork as much as it involves being good with one's fists. When you don't have those things, the prospect of having a confrontation with some other person is far more harrowing. I don't know what your actual physical acumen is at this stage of your life, but you almost certainly have one tool in your arsenal that I do not: running. With or without the cane, I cannot run. It's one of the best things you can do, provided you have the option and space to do it, or you can make the space to do it. 

When you don't have that, you have to think about other things. Essentially, you have to consider that, in any confrontation you might face, _you're going to have to face it_. Almost everyone I meet in my life is going to be able to outrun me. That means I _must fight them _if it comes to that. It requires a completely different mindset than just preparing to fight someone. This is compounded by my physical options of actually winning the fight, particularly without injury, are going to be low. 

It isn't your fault that we come from different worlds with totally different mindsets about canes, just as it isn't mine. It just is what it is.

It is wild to me that there are so many people who are otherwise fit and healthy who look for improvised weapons like this. I understand it on some level, but not on all levels. I can't, because my usual thought about a force multiplier is "_I hope I can pick something I'm able to use effectively while disabled that will allow me to at least be at the level of 90% of the average people I will meet."_

That isn't how most people view force multipliers. They view them as something to give them an edge over an average person that they assume is at least on their level. I just look for ways to get to that baseline level starting already below it. The cane is one way, but only because I already need it every day anyway. And that need, in turn, lowers its effectiveness as a defensive tool. To be able to run and jump and punch and kick and _run away _are, for the most part, foreign concepts I've never experienced a day in my life. I can't imagine how many options you have.

A cane is only a good choice for defense* if you don't need it to walk or stand upright*. We just have very different perspective because our needs are very different. I can't fully grasp yours nor you mine, and that's okay. Nowhere did I say you shouldn't have any right to carry the cane if you want, but you had asked why someone who needs it might not carry it, and this is my long-winded answer to that nuanced topic.

All that said, all of my canes are deadly weapons, and with running away not being an option for me, I'm probably going for the head if it comes down to that.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> I'm not suggesting you should consider the actually infirm who need canes in order to function in society. What I'm suggesting is that people like that--like me--almost always think of canes in a totally different way than you do, and with good reason. You might be getting older, as we all are, but your options are almost limitless compared to someone like me.
> 
> Getting into an actual fight, with any hope of winning, often involves being able to have good balance and footwork as much as it involves being good with one's fists. When you don't have those things, the prospect of having a confrontation with some other person is far more harrowing. I don't know what your actual physical acumen is at this stage of your life, but you almost certainly have one tool in your arsenal that I do not: running. With or without the cane, I cannot run. It's one of the best things you can do, provided you have the option and space to do it, or you can make the space to do it.
> 
> ...


I don't pretend to know how to advice you or anything. One thing I want to say is do weight training, more on your upper body so you can be stronger. That will make up at least some of you mobility problem.

Unlike most of the MA people, I think strength is very very important. I put in 7 hours a week, half of it is weight lifting. I truly believe strength make everything better. Don't listen to people said strength doesn't matter if you have good technique. Strength is every bit as important in fighting. 

I remember 20 years ago I had hemorrhoid surgery, my whole lower body was wasted. Because my upper body was strong enough, I could easily pull myself up from beg, get in and out of the car and do a lot of thing just using my hands to move my body around.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't pretend to know how to advice you or anything. One thing I want to say is do weight training, more on your upper body so you can be stronger. That will make up at least some of you mobility problem.
> 
> Unlike most of the MA people, I think strength is very very important. I put in 7 hours a week, half of it is weight lifting. I truly believe strength make everything better. Don't listen to people said strength doesn't matter if you have good technique. Strength is every bit as important in fighting.
> 
> I remember 20 years ago I had hemorrhoid surgery, my whole lower body was wasted. Because my upper body was strong enough, I could easily pull myself up from beg, get in and out of the car and do a lot of thing just using my hands to move my body around.



Oh upper body strength is very important, no argument there. It is necessary to compensate for a weaker lower half, for sure (and a good thing to have even if your lower half is strong).

It's not that I'd be totally helpless if I had to hit someone with a cane--it would just require very specific circumstances for it to work in my favor. I'd need time to widen my stance, I'd need to have something behind me so that it would be harder to knock me down, and I'd need to be ready to swing the cane while maintaining my balance, managing my fear, and hoping that one or two strikes with basically no footwork would do the job. If any of that is out of place, my odds are really not very good. 

I see the appeal of the cane; I would just probably see it more if my body worked properly to where I didn't need it. But, I might just as easily feel secure without any weapon or improvised weapon, too. I've never lived like that so I can't really say, I might think completely different about self-defense, honestly. In any case, I wish you well in your endeavors.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Disagree. That's chopping. PERIOD. DO NOT SAY I DON'T UNDERSTAND.


It is not chopping. You do not understand what they're doing.


Alan0354 said:


> You saw the video I posted?


I've seen those, and far more.


Alan0354 said:


> Maybe be you give those another name.


I have. So have others. The Katana is not a chopping weapon. You seem to be the only person in the conversation who doesn't understand this.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> I've only traveled a few times in my life to places where I would need to deal with the TSA. I'm disabled and non-threatening, and I usually have airport staff with me to help, so everything goes pretty much smoothly. Even if it did not, I am too anxious during travel to bother hassling the TSA about anything.
> 
> There's one thing that sometimes happens with them that does bug me, though. It's those rare occasions on which I'm following all of the rules posted, but the agent that day decided, for whatever reason, that they didn't want to. As an example, last year there were very clearly posted rules an airport I was going through. I had to put different, specific items in different bins, rather than stuffing as much as one can in one bin as is usually the case. I thought that was overkill, but rules are rules, and I'm prepared to follow.
> 
> ...



If you don't travel often, it can be really stressful.  TSA is trying to keep the line moving, and I've seen a lot of folks get stressed out because they feel like they have to move fast, which can actually cause them to miss stuff, not hear instructions, and make things go slower.  The folks behind you can sometimes add pressure too, especially if they appear to be in a rush (which a lot of folks in the airport are)... just adding more pressure.  But there are a few things you can do. 

My recommendations for getting through TSA as stress free as possible are pretty simple.  Check out the rules for your airport in advance.  This will help you know what you need to put in checked baggage, what you can carry on, and how you need to pack it.  For example, if you don't want to check a bag, you'll probably need to make sure that your toiletries are in small bottles, and in quart sized ziploc bags.  Sometimes, they want you to pull those out and put them in a bin... sometimes, they don't.  Some places will ask you to run your kindle and phone through seperately, some don't.  And so on. 

Once you're at the security line, if you're not sure what the rules are, I recommend getting into a longer line (counterintuitive, I know).  This will allow a little room to breathe and give you some time to see what the folks in front of you are being asked to do.  Then get your own stuff ready.  So, for example, you'll be able to see if they're asking folks to spread out into separate bins or cram them into one.  Another example is usually, they want you to remove your shoes, but not always. 

I rarely run into any issues.  I smile a lot (I smile a lot in general), pay attention to what's going on around me, try to anticipate what they're going to need, and I try not to be a jerk.  Makes the entire process pretty easy.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> If you don't travel often, it can be really stressful.  TSA is trying to keep the line moving, and I've seen a lot of folks get stressed out because they feel like they have to move fast, which can actually cause them to miss stuff, not hear instructions, and make things go slower.  The folks behind you can sometimes add pressure too, especially if they appear to be in a rush (which a lot of folks in the airport are)... just adding more pressure.  But there are a few things you can do.
> 
> My recommendations for getting through TSA as stress free as possible are pretty simple.  Check out the rules for your airport in advance.  This will help you know what you need to put in checked baggage, what you can carry on, and how you need to pack it.  For example, if you don't want to check a bag, you'll probably need to make sure that your toiletries are in small bottles, and in quart sized ziploc bags.  Sometimes, they want you to pull those out and put them in a bin... sometimes, they don't.  Some places will ask you to run your kindle and phone through seperately, some don't.  And so on.
> 
> ...



In terms of airport navigation, I'm a little bit fortunate because I set up assistance prior to going there. An employee pretty much zips me through security (still performing all usual checks of course) and gets me to my gate. It can get a little problematic if they leave me at the gate because I might need to go somewhere nearby, and that can get tough and confusing. But otherwise, setting up assistance does help a lot.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I just look the motion and I use it. Whether there is a little slicing during the chop is small difference. Obvious it's useless to put slicing motion with the cane.
> 
> Nothing fit perfect, I yet to find anything that is 100% for using with a cane. This motion sure a lot closer and better than analogy of swinging a baseball bet. It's the closest I can find.
> 
> Like I said, I just use the chopping motion, forget the little slicing. It's the closest I can find for stick fight with two hands.


I think the point I and others are making is that using most of a slicing motion isn't probsably effective for developing a chopping-type strike. And I'm not sure a chopping motion would be the best way to develop striking for a blunt instrument, either. Rather than copying the gross movements of something vaguely related, why not start from scratch and just work out a method for striking with the object in question?


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think the point I and others are making is that using most of a slicing motion isn't probsably effective for developing a chopping-type strike. And I'm not sure a chopping motion would be the best way to develop striking for a blunt instrument, either. *Rather than copying the gross movements of something vaguely related, why not start from scratch and just work out a method for striking with the object in question?*


Not getting into the katana-gate discussion.  But the part I emphasized above stood out.  We have some FMA dudes around here.  When I dabbled with FMA 15 some odd years ago, one of the things they emphasized was that all the stuff could be applied either empty handed, with a stick, or a knife, or a machete.  For example, when we did senawali with sticks, I was told to hold and index them as though they had an edge.  Now, I may have misunderstood, but that's what stuck with me. 

So, this idea of learning techniques that are indifferent to the tool doesn't seem all that strange to me.  I guess I'm not sure why folks are so worked up about this.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> It is not chopping. You do not understand what they're doing.
> 
> I've seen those, and far more.
> 
> I have. So have others. The Katana is not a chopping weapon. You seem to be the only person in the conversation who doesn't understand this.


Give me a break, I looked into it, they CHOP down, but they pull a little slice. At best, it's 90% chop 10% slice. You want to call it something else just because they do not call chopping, it's your choice. The motion is at leat 90% chopping. For me, I eliminate the slice and do it more chop.

At least it's closer to what I am doing that baseball bet swing. Baseball bet swing is NOT useful. You put all the effort in one swing and you can even lose balance like those hitters miss the ball when swing and they have to take a step to regain their balance. It is USELESS for cane fight.

Nothing fits perfect for cane fight, at least chopping motion of katana fits 90%.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Not getting into the katana-gate discussion.  But the part I emphasized above stood out.  We have some FMA dudes around here.  When I dabbled with FMA 15 some odd years ago, one of the things they emphasized was that all the stuff could be applied either empty handed, with a stick, or a knife, or a machete.  For example, when we did senawali with sticks, I was told to hold and index them as though they had an edge.  Now, I may have misunderstood, but that's what stuck with me.
> 
> So, this idea of learning techniques that are indifferent to the tool doesn't seem all that strange to me.  I guess I'm not sure why folks are so worked up about this.


I experienced that in my FMA training, too. Within a system, there's a good reason to work with movements that cross contexts (like moving your unbladed weapon in similar ways to a bladed one) - it essentially creates cross-training leverage. I don't think that applies where you're focusing on one weapon by looking at how a quite different weapon is trained.


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It is hard to find any style that is for cane. Most of them are just too fancy. You would think like Tapado would be good or even Hanbo. Tapado uses a longer stick and keep hitting the ground to bounce back. I watched Hanbo, like I said the cane is asymmetrical and the hook handle can catch on something while hitting and pull off from the hand. You really cannot do symmetrical mirror motion with a cane. Also, the way they hold the stick with both thumbs facing inward, you really cannot swing that fast either way.


Here are some hanbo strikes that will work great with a cane:





Here is another way to strike with a hanbo, that would also work great with a cane:





Don't be so worried about them grabbing your cane... learn how to use their grab against them:





And using the hook of the cane to hook the other guy... can be your advantage instead of theirs.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I experienced that in my FMA training, too. Within a system, there's a good reason to work with movements that cross contexts (like moving your unbladed weapon in similar ways to a bladed one) - it essentially creates cross-training leverage. I don't think that applies where you're focusing on one weapon by looking at how a quite different weapon is trained.


Is a stick not quite different from a machete or an empty hand?  I don't get it.


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Is a stick not quite different from a machete or an empty hand? I don't get it.


The way you cut with a machete is much closer to the way you would hit with a stick. The way you cut with a katana is very different than the way you cut with a machete or hit with a stick. If you used a katana the same way as you use a machete... it would not work very well at all, and could destroy your katana.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I think the point I and others are making is that using most of a slicing motion isn't probsably effective for developing a chopping-type strike. And I'm not sure a chopping motion would be the best way to develop striking for a blunt instrument, either. Rather than copying the gross movements of something vaguely related, why not start from scratch and just work out a method for striking with the object in question?


Tell me a better way for cane strike, I am all ears. I watched escrima, tapado, irish stick, hanbo. Nothing really that useful, just a lot of moves that looks good, nothing comes close to a good simple swing that hits hard, pull back to recover and strike again. All the fancy movement, bouncing the stick on the elbow(irish), switching hand strike(hanbo and irish), hitting the ground every time(tapado) and fancy twirling(escrima) that people hit each other stupid and still standing after the whole round.

Tell me one that works, I am all ears. I don't even want to look for a school after watching all those. 

After a year and half practice, I believe using two hands with a 20oz stick, concentrate in hitting the lower body hard is the best and no nonsense and effective way. Nothing showey, just simple strike, hit as hard as possible.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> The way you cut with a machete is much closer to the way you would hit with a stick. The way you cut with a katana is very different than the way you cut with a machete or hit with a stick. If you used a katana the same way as you use a machete... it would not work very well at all, and could destroy your katana.


Just look at the motion and use it to fit to the blunt instrument. It's not black and white. Yes, cutting with machete is closer, but do they have machete fight that I can reference? Short of that, taking out from Katana is about the closest, take out the little slice. Katana chop is at least 90% chop and only 10% slice. You can see in the video already. Take out the slice and if fits perfect for cane.

Actually your video is helpful. The guy explain on the "chop", about the body that I already know. But he gave me the idea about the wrist motion that he elaborated. That's good info, I use more body, legs to add to the swing, I use arm and shoulder to add to it. But I kept my wrist quite stiff. Now I am going to practice the wrist to add the last little bit to the chop.

For blunt instrument, the idea of chinguchi is very important to add the whole body into one point impact to get the max force. The wrist will add to it. That was a GOOD demonstration. Good video


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> The way you cut with a machete is much closer to the way you would hit with a stick. The way you cut with a katana is very different than the way you cut with a machete or hit with a stick. If you used a katana the same way as you use a machete... it would not work very well at all, and could destroy your katana.


But what if you're not cutting at all, but are using a cane?  I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm trying to make two simple points.  First, that the idea of looking at one thing for inspiration with another isn't all that crazy or obscure.

And second that, in my opinion, folks seem to be hung up on the simile and missing the literal point.  In rereading @Alan0354 's posts, I didn't see anywhere that he's literally cutting anything, but is instead literally talking about using a chopping motion inspired by videos of katana training and adapting them to his cane.  I may be wrong, but if he's not cutting anything, you guys may be getting twisted up over nothing.


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## Buka (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> If you don't travel often, it can be really stressful.  TSA is trying to keep the line moving, and I've seen a lot of folks get stressed out because they feel like they have to move fast, which can actually cause them to miss stuff, not hear instructions, and make things go slower.  The folks behind you can sometimes add pressure too, especially if they appear to be in a rush (which a lot of folks in the airport are)... just adding more pressure.  But there are a few things you can do.
> 
> My recommendations for getting through TSA as stress free as possible are pretty simple.  Check out the rules for your airport in advance.  This will help you know what you need to put in checked baggage, what you can carry on, and how you need to pack it.  For example, if you don't want to check a bag, you'll probably need to make sure that your toiletries are in small bottles, and in quart sized ziploc bags.  Sometimes, they want you to pull those out and put them in a bin... sometimes, they don't.  Some places will ask you to run your kindle and phone through seperately, some don't.  And so on.
> 
> ...


I blame some of the problems on the airlines. On what they allow passengers  to have as "carry on".

Here on Maui, passengers, a lot of them old, overweight, out of shape and tired from their vacation, try to go up the escalators carrying so much stuff it's the proverbial accident waiting to happen. They have no free hand to hold the hand rail, they're on a moving platform and they are unbalanced with so many bags it looks like a Monty Python skit.

And they fall. Tumbling down the escalator knocking over other people as well. They get hurt and some have to be hospitalized. The escalator has to be shut down temorarilly, causing even more problems.

I always thought it strange that folks will spend thousands upon thousands of dollars on a Hawaiian vacation and then nickel and dime themselves to save forty bucks on a baggage fee.

To them all I can say is TIMBER.


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> But what if you're not cutting at all, but are using a cane? I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm trying to make two simple points. First, that the idea of looking at one thing for inspiration with another isn't all that crazy or obscure.


Its not a crazy idea.... its just that he could pick better things to look at, that are closer to what he wants to do. Looking at the machete, would be much more applicable to what he wants to learn... and would make him much more effective, should he need to use it. 



Steve said:


> And second that, in my opinion, folks seem to be hung up on the simile and missing the literal point. In rereading @Alan0354 's posts, I didn't see anywhere that he's literally cutting anything, but is instead literally talking about using a chopping motion inspired by videos of katana training and adapting them to his cane. I may be wrong, but if he's not cutting anything, you guys may be getting twisted up over nothing.


The work has already been done. People have learned how to use sticks. While they use sticks to swing down... they have found ways to swing sticks down that are much more effective, when swinging a stick than trying to swing a stick like a katana. We are trying to point him in ways that will make him more effective at using his cane. But, he has a year and a half of self taught experience to know better...

After watching his videos... he would be much more effective, by using different examples and different ways of swinging the stick. Trying to copy a katana cut with his cane is holding back his effectiveness with the cane.


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Tell me a better way for cane strike, I am all ears.


Are you??? I showed a bunch of hanbo videos that showed different ways to strike with a hanbo... all of which would be more effective than the strikes you are showing.

Here is another... with a cane this time...




Note he covers longer distance and shorter distance, and shows why to learn some of the alternate ways to hold the cane... even if it is not like a katana. His hits are much harder, much faster and leaves much smaller openings...


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> But what if you're not cutting at all, but are using a cane?  I'm not trying to be obtuse. I'm trying to make two simple points.  First, that the idea of looking at one thing for inspiration with another isn't all that crazy or obscure.
> 
> And second that, in my opinion, folks seem to be hung up on the simile and missing the literal point.  In rereading @Alan0354 's posts, I didn't see anywhere that he's literally cutting anything, but is instead literally talking about using a chopping motion inspired by videos of katana training and adapting them to his cane.  I may be wrong, but if he's not cutting anything, you guys may be getting twisted up over nothing.


*EXACTLY*

I look for movement that inspire me, I take it and incorporate into my arsenal. I think people take it all literal. Wab25 posted a video explaining the katana "chopping" motion that they add a little slice. If you watch the video, you can clearly see 90% chopping, 10% slicing. For is sword, that 10% is enough to cut deep already.

People get too hung up with the "exact" term and everything has to be literal. That's the reason I always skeptical with TMA and praising MMA. Like the example of the front step kick to the knee use by a lot of MMA in UFC that is so so effective. The idea is from Wing Chung. Is is exactly like how the WC kick is? It might not. IT'S THE IDEA OF STEPPING ON THE KNEEE OF THE OPPONENT. That's the essence of the kick. How you do it comes secondary.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Are you??? I showed a bunch of hanbo videos that showed different ways to strike with a hanbo... all of which would be more effective than the strikes you are showing.
> 
> Here is another... with a cane this time...
> 
> ...


Yes, I watch the hanbo. I watched half of it, it's not very effective. I explain in detail to you already if you read it. The most important thing in hanbo I saw is they hold the stick with thumbs facing each other and hit with the end of the stick. They use mirror movement between left and right to strike. You cannot do it with a cane. the cane has a crook handle that you cannot mirror. Also, the crook end has a hook. You hit like that, you risk hooking on the opponent and pull the cane off your hand.

Also and more importantly, you CANNOT HIT THAT HARD using the technique holding the stick with thumbs facing inward. I even show you the video how I practice. I use that movement for hitting 9 months ago already. I practice that. You cannot hit that hard. Notice I hold the crook end with my right hand and punch out like cross punching. Using the hard crook end to hit the opponent. THAT, has a lot more force that what the hanbo is doing.

I paid a lot of attention and I responded to you and even upload my video to show I use part of it without even watching hanbo.

I yet to watch your other videos. I'll be back.

This video is by *Blindside*. I learn so much from him in CASTING. That, I spent months practicing. That is really useful in making the strike very compact but still hits hard.* 75% *of my cane practice was learning from him.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> Is a stick not quite different from a machete or an empty hand?  I don't get it.


Yes. As I said, it makes more sense within a single system, where you're leveraging movements to learn multiple uses. That assumes the learner is being taght proper use of the gross movements (not just going by what they look like, which can be deceiving) and that the movements were selected because they work well with both weapons. They may not be the optimal movement for one weapon or the other, but provide a good base for both.

When learning one weapon (as opposed to multiple weapons within a system), I don't think it's at all the same.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Tell me a better way for cane strike, I am all ears. I watched escrima, tapado, irish stick, hanbo. Nothing really that useful, just a lot of moves that looks good, nothing comes close to a good simple swing that hits hard, pull back to recover and strike again. All the fancy movement, bouncing the stick on the elbow(irish), switching hand strike(hanbo and irish), hitting the ground every time(tapado) and fancy twirling(escrima) that people hit each other stupid and still standing after the whole round.
> 
> Tell me one that works, I am all ears. I don't even want to look for a school after watching all those.
> 
> After a year and half practice, I believe using two hands with a 20oz stick, concentrate in hitting the lower body hard is the best and no nonsense and effective way. Nothing showey, just simple strike, hit as hard as possible.


Hanbo strikes, and even some jo strikes, would be more suited than trying to adapt a cut to striking. Because they are strikes. Properly understood, escrima strikes can work as well (at least the basic ones I know). The principles used in all of those would apply to the cane with varying adaptations.


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## Steve (Sep 7, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Yes. As I said, it makes more sense within a single system, where you're leveraging movements to learn multiple uses. That assumes the learner is being taght proper use of the gross movements (not just going by what they look like, which can be deceiving) and that the movements were selected because they work well with both weapons. They may not be the optimal movement for one weapon or the other, but provide a good base for both.
> 
> When learning one weapon (as opposed to multiple weapons within a system), I don't think it's at all the same.


I hear you.  I just think, for this discussion, we're overthinking it by a lot.  If @Alan0354 wants to cut with a katana, all of this great information you and others are sharing may be helpful.  But he's not.  Right?


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> The most important thing in hanbo I saw is they hold the stick with thumbs facing each other and hit with the end of the stick.


I showed 3 hanbo videos... the first one showed strikes with one hand holding the hanbo. These strikes were faster and would hit harder than swinging it like a katana. They also offer more reach than swinging like a katana.

The second video showed a different way of holding the hanbo one handed... and you strike with it differently. This gives you different opportunities to strike... and helps out if you don't have time to get to your two hand posture.

Both of these videos show strikes that would be much more effective than using the cane like a katana. They are faster, more reach, and would do more damage to the other guy.

The third video was more about what to do when the other guy grabs your cane. Yes, he used fancy wrist locking done with the hanbo... and yes, in real life, the guy would just let go.... but thats what you want.... when he lets go, you hit him again.... if he doesn't you break his wrist.



Alan0354 said:


> Also and more importantly, you CANNOT HIT THAT HARD using the technique holding the stick with thumbs facing inward.


Sometimes its not about generating the maximum force. If the guy is too close for your maximum force swing... maybe you need something else. If you are in a small space... maybe you need something different. For hanbo and cane, holding with the thumbs inward is for close quarter fighting... after the guy got too close to use you harder strikes that require distance.

The last video I showed... the guy is using a cane, and showing how to use the hook to your advantage. Hanbo would give you better long range strikes.... they would be faster and hit harder and leave you less open... it would give you a middle range, when they get too close for the big strikes, it would give you a close range where you are grappling... it will also teach you to respond when they grab your cane... even if the fancy technique does not "work" you end up with their hand off your cane and you in a position to strike them... maybe not with the maximum possible power... but certainly with a target open to a strike that will be much harder than your fist.... from there you should be able to gain the distance for the harder strike... and the cane / hanbo style one handed strikes will be much more effective.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> I hear you.  I just think, for this discussion, we're overthinking it by a lot.  If @Alan0354 wants to cut with a katana, all of this great information you and others are sharing may be helpful.  But he's not.  Right?



I don't disagree with that, though I do agree with Mr. Seymour as well that hanbo stuff would be my go-to if I was going to study more steps I could apply to canes in-depth.

That said, there's also a ton of just straight-up cane stuff out there (some of which I know Alan has looked at and adapted or discarded for his preferences, which is all good) so I don't really get why one wouldn't just go with that.

I can even find stuff for cane defense for seniors and the disabled... not as much as the stuff fit, abled people train with, but even this is out there. There's one guy who owns a dojo and puts up free lessons on this stuff, and so far I think much of what he tries to show is applicable to a disabled person who needs to use a cane, which is something you don't see often.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> I hear you.  I just think, for this discussion, we're overthinking it by a lot.  If @Alan0354 wants to cut with a katana, all of this great information you and others are sharing may be helpful.  But he's not.  Right?


Look at my posts - I didn't say much about the kata, just that it's not a good model for striking with a blunt weapon. There are better places to find 2-hand striking.


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## wab25 (Sep 7, 2022)

Steve said:


> I hear you.  I just think, for this discussion, we're overthinking it by a lot.  If @Alan0354 wants to cut with a katana, all of this great information you and others are sharing may be helpful.  But he's not.  Right?


Its the opposite... he wants to hit with a cane. The information we are sharing with him is to help him hit with his cane better.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Are you??? I showed a bunch of hanbo videos that showed different ways to strike with a hanbo... all of which would be more effective than the strikes you are showing.
> 
> Here is another... with a cane this time...
> 
> ...


Actually I learn the most from Blindside. He even MADE me a video showing me about CASTING:





75% of my cane fight was learned from him. I spend so much time practicing the CASTING.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> Oh upper body strength is very important, no argument there. It is necessary to compensate for a weaker lower half, for sure (and a good thing to have even if your lower half is strong).
> 
> It's not that I'd be totally helpless if I had to hit someone with a cane--it would just require very specific circumstances for it to work in my favor. I'd need time to widen my stance, I'd need to have something behind me so that it would be harder to knock me down, and I'd need to be ready to swing the cane while maintaining my balance, managing my fear, and hoping that one or two strikes with basically no footwork would do the job. If any of that is out of place, my odds are really not very good.
> 
> I see the appeal of the cane; I would just probably see it more if my body worked properly to where I didn't need it. But, I might just as easily feel secure without any weapon or improvised weapon, too. I've never lived like that so I can't really say, I might think completely different about self-defense, honestly. In any case, I wish you well in your endeavors.


I don't pretend to be in your shoe. It's obvious that you like to learn self defense, or else you won't be hanging around here with old foggies like us. You still in your 30s!!!

That said, too bad life is not fair, you dealt with a bad hand. I don't pretend to know how you feel. One think I know is if one want something bad, there is always a way, it just takes more determination. I have a little of this. When I was in the early 30s, I was so into TKD I worked very hard. My back gave out on me after 3 years from all the high kicks. I really pushed myself. For two years, I could not stand for 2 minutes without the tinkling all the way down to my foot. I was disabled. I did not give up. The doctor put me on PT with weight, that literally saved my life. I slowly work my way back, working on heavy bags and all that. It's been over 30 years, I never stop.

My point is there's will, there's a way. Now I talk about it. But when i was fighting through it, I don't even want to talk, I just do. If you really want it, I don't know of any reason why you cannot start doing weights on your upper body. I don't know your condition and I am not a doctor. If you really want to improve you lower body, talk to the doctor, tell the doctor you want to strengthen your legs, ask whether you can get into PT with weight training on your lower body.

I am not going to paint a pretty picture, you might never get back to like a normal person even if you work hard on strength training on your lower body. BUT at least if you get stronger, that would help. It will open up more option. If you have the determination, talk to your doctor.

Hell, if you can get very strong on you upper body, if you get a 17" arm, people will think twice before picking on you!!! If you are strong enough, you can use two cane, one on your left hand to be on the ground like a 3rd leg to help with your two legs, the right hand swing the cane for defense and fight. design the two cane so they can be held together as one piece so you only have one cane(combined of two) to walk. Separate them for fighting so you have 3 legs and one hand to fight.

I am not saying this is the answer. You have the will, think of ways to make it work. Just keep thinking and come up with solution.

This is what I am doing. Because of my back, I have to think of different ways, not just follow on style because it won't work. Think outside of the box to fit my particular strong and weak point. BE CREATIVE.

One think I do every morning before I even get out of the bed. I just lie there and THINK, just think of possible solution in everything facing me. Not just MA, but other things. I was an EE, you don't know how many ideas I came up with from lying in bed. I had a big bout with back problem just a month or so ago, nothing I did before helped. I came up with totally new exercise just from lying in bed and I am up and exercise again.

Have the determination, THINK out of the box if you really want it. Do something about it.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Are you??? I showed a bunch of hanbo videos that showed different ways to strike with a hanbo... all of which would be more effective than the strikes you are showing.
> 
> Here is another... with a cane this time...
> 
> ...


I just watched this, watch my video from yesterday, you see the similarity on the poking and strike with the crook end of the cane. I never watch this video, but I HAD THOUGHT about these already and show on the video I taped 9 months ago which is half the time of my whole adventure on stick fight.

I saw the swinging of the cane holding the crook end long time ago. I DEEMED IT'S USELESS. It's no better than escrima that swing wild and ONLY work if you have wide open space with NOTHING in the way.

One has to THINK!!! NOT JUST BLIND FOLLOW. I have a very open mind. I watch some of the hanbo, I THINK. I yet to watch your other 3 videos, I'll be back with all that.

ONE cannot blindly follow anything. WATCH AND THINK. that's what is SO WRONG of the TMA, that you have to follow blindly. Look at the revolution of MMA in UFC in the last 30 years. They are SO FAR ahead in fighting no TMA can even get into the octagon and resolve in trash talk, insist they are right and making excuses why MMA is not valid. THINK, LEARN, HAVE OPEN MIND, BE HUMBLE. The world is leaving the old style behind!!!

We waste so much time debating whether it's chopping or slicing. JUST look at it!!! For cry out loud!!! Watch UFC, I can even tell around what year the fight was because I can see the stage of evolution in fighting. Royce Gracie KILLED the TMA in the 90s, ABSOLUTE KILL THEM. Then in 10 years, Gracie got CREAMED by Matt huges. Then Huges got slaughtered shortly. They are improving everyday and TMA still stuck in the last century debating about the names!!

BAN me, It's time for people to wake up!!! Have a mind of your own and think.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I just watched this, watch my video from yesterday, you see the similarity on the poking and strike with the crook end of the cane. I never watch this video, but I HAD THOUGHT about these already and show on the video I taped 9 months ago which is half the time of my whole adventure on stick fight.
> 
> I saw the swinging of the cane holding the crook end long time ago. I DEEMED IT'S USELESS. It's no better than escrima that swing wild and ONLY work if you have wide open space with NOTHING in the way.
> 
> ...


Alan, I have an idea, seriously, start a senior league fight club.65 and up. I really think you could start with a few competitions on YouTube. It’s absolutely going to get views.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 7, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Alan, I have an idea, seriously, start a senior league fight club.65 and up. I really think you could start with a few competitions on YouTube. It’s absolutely going to get views.


Absolutely not interested in this. I know a lot of people like to make a hit in social media, not me. I am still debating whether I want to write a patent application on some of my ideas in hifi amplifiers. I just got a patent last year that I was one of the designer of a system. Getting a name in social is the last thing that interested me.

I can tell you, this is not unique here in MA world. I on and off going to firearm forum as I was very into shooting for years before. I am absolutely surprised after there are so much improvement in handguns in the last 40 years that there are a lot of people still die hard on the old 1911 that was designed over 100 years ago.

Look at the new designs like Glocks, S&W and a lot of others. We are into the space age, polymer frame that are stronger than any aluminum frame and so much lighter than steel. New design with single piece feed ramp unlike the old design of two piece feedramp of 1911 that is very hard to be reliable with JHP. Modern guns with wide open ejector port that unlike those 1911 with small side ejector port that cause FTE. The new generation guns are so much more reliable and last longer....................BUT NOOOOOOOOO!!!! So many people are dead set for 1911 and still debating about it.

I know a lot about guns, I do gun smithing. I own the Colt Gold Cup which is the 1911. I did accurizing, squeezed the slide, change everything to get it to very tight fit and made it very accurate to go to competitions. I know 1911 to say all these. It's not like I don't know about it. 1911 is just so behind time it's not even funny. But people still defend it to death.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 7, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Absolutely not interested in this. I know a lot of people like to make a hit in social media, not me. I am still debating whether I want to write a patent application on some of my ideas in hifi amplifiers. I just got a patent last year that I was one of the designer of a system. Getting a name in social is the last thing that interested me.


Shame you are unwilling to step up and test what you are learning. Must be an armchair quarterback complaining about everything.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Shame you are unwilling to step up and test what you are learning. Must be an armchair quarterback complaining about everything.


For what? I don't claim to be good or a master. At least I said over and over from day one that I only have a few years and not an expert. And I don't mind putting out videos of me recorded in the last few months so people know exactly where I am at. At least I am honest. I sure don't see a lot of videos of others that are experts, instructors or masters.

Over one page here talking about whether it should be  called CHOPPING or cutting!!!?? Talk about armchair quarterback.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Actually I learn the most from Blindside. He even MADE me a video showing me about CASTING:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Alan0354 said:


> I don't pretend to be in your shoe. It's obvious that you like to learn self defense, or else you won't be hanging around here with old foggies like us. You still in your 30s!!!
> 
> That said, too bad life is not fair, you dealt with a bad hand. I don't pretend to know how you feel. One think I know is if one want something bad, there is always a way, it just takes more determination. I have a little of this. When I was in the early 30s, I was so into TKD I worked very hard. My back gave out on me after 3 years from all the high kicks. I really pushed myself. For two years, I could not stand for 2 minutes without the tinkling all the way down to my foot. I was disabled. I did not give up. The doctor put me on PT with weight, that literally saved my life. I slowly work my way back, working on heavy bags and all that. It's been over 30 years, I never stop.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your tips--very glad the issues in your 30s were not permanent, that would be hard to deal with moving forward.

The third leg thing is something I practice. I'm not sure how effective it would be in my specific case, and I'm a little wary of trying it out in a sparring situation. I wouldn't say that I'm prone to injury or anything, but some joint injuries can just exacerbate the problems I have already, so I try to practice self-defense while being probably too cautious for my own good, really.

Although statistically, disabled people tend to get more abuse or physical attacks than people who aren't, I'm blessed not to have been attacked like that. At least, not yet. I try to do my best to make sure I'm not in and don't contribute fuel to situations where people would want to do that. But, as everyone here knows, sometimes you do everything right and the wrong sort of person decides to try something with you.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> I appreciate your tips--very glad the issues in your 30s were not permanent, that would be hard to deal with moving forward.
> 
> The third leg thing is something I practice. I'm not sure how effective it would be in my specific case, and I'm a little wary of trying it out in a sparring situation. I wouldn't say that I'm prone to injury or anything, but some joint injuries can just exacerbate the problems I have already, so I try to practice self-defense while being probably too cautious for my own good, really.
> 
> Although statistically, disabled people tend to get more abuse or physical attacks than people who aren't, I'm blessed not to have been attacked like that. At least, not yet. I try to do my best to make sure I'm not in and don't contribute fuel to situations where people would want to do that. But, as everyone here knows, sometimes you do everything right and the wrong sort of person decides to try something with you.


You training by yourself or have a trainer or going to class? If you train by yourself, maybe you should get a trainer that is experience with your situation. What is your issue with your legs, I really don't know yet? Talk to the doctor to see how far can you push. Talk to doctors that advocate for physical training. There are doctors that are against exercise, I've seen a few before. They would say no. You need to find the right doctor, that's important. I went to St Mary's Hospital that operated on the back of Joe Montana at the time. they are the ones that put me in PT with weights that change my life.

Ha ha, like I said, if you have a 17" arm, chances are less you'll be picked on!!! Thugs are chickens, they only pick on the weak. That's why I make it a point to hold my cane like a stick, never touch the ground and walk fast. Make it obvious the cane is NOT for walking. If I can avoid confrontation, the cane serves the purpose already. I have no interest to test my skill!!! 

Too old for that!!! 😂

Just don't give up, the fact is you are hanging around here show you want it. Now just  a question how to you go by it and how can you get the max out of it.

Good Luck.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You training by yourself or have a trainer or going to class? If you train by yourself, maybe you should get a trainer that is experience with your situation. What is your issue with your legs, I really don't know yet? Talk to the doctor to see how far can you push. Talk to doctors that advocate for physical training. There are doctors that are against exercise, I've seen a few before. They would say no. You need to find the right doctor, that's important. I went to St Mary's Hospital that operated on the back of Joe Montana at the time. they are the ones that put me in PT with weights that change my life.
> 
> Ha ha, like I said, if you have a 17" arm, chances are less you'll be picked on!!! Thugs are chickens, they only pick on the weak. That's why I make it a point to hold my cane like a stick, never touch the ground and walk fast. Make it obvious the cane is NOT for walking. If I can avoid confrontation, the cane serves the purpose already. I have no interest to test my skill!!!
> 
> ...


For now I'm just by myself. I've thought about a trainer, but realistically, there just aren't any in my area, and I'd have to go far afield to find one. Additionally, I'd probably try to get someone who had the time to train me privately so that we could adapt moves to fit what my body is able to do, and not every trainer has time for that.

Of course, training on your own is not the best, but if you're diligent, I like to think it is better than nothing. I've talked to some trainers online for specific advice, too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> For what? I don't claim to be good or a master. At least I said over and over from day one that I only have a few years and not an expert. And I don't mind putting out videos of me recorded in the last few months so people know exactly where I am at. At least I am honest. I sure don't see a lot of videos of others that are experts, instructors or masters.
> 
> Over one page here talking about whether it should be  called CHOPPING or cutting!!!?? Talk about armchair quarterback.


I suspect there's been a failure of communication here. It's not about which word is used, but what that says about the motion. A katana cutting motion (had you copied it well) would not be a good platform for blunt striking. It's just not terribly efficient for that purpose. There are similar-looking techniques for staff (bo/jo/hanbo) that serve better, because they are focused on delivering striking force. A chopping motion would be closer to a striking motion.

So the reason folks wanted you to be aware it's a cut, rather than a chop, is that a cut isn't an efficient technique for a strike. And just leaving out a part of a technique doesn't usually make it useful for a different approach.


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## Yanli (Sep 8, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> When I began traveling internationally, I struggled to find a weapon that I could carry anywhere. I came up with many nasty options.
> 
> Including a trick I learned about when I was an undercover, investigating motorcycle gangs. The weapon of choice with many motorcycle gangs being a handkerchief slid through a padlock. Carried in the back pocket with the tails of the handkerchief hanging out of the pocket. Obviously you could quickly grab the tails and pull out a pretty nasty weapon!
> 
> ...


  It is great that you found your perfect weapon, however, keep in mind that you may not always have that weapon. I tell my students to practice with many different types of weapons, this way, the learn to grab anything and use it effectively as a weapon.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Absolutely not interested in this. I know a lot of people like to make a hit in social media, not me. I am still debating whether I want to write a patent application on some of my ideas in hifi amplifiers. I just got a patent last year that I was one of the designer of a system. Getting a name in social is the last thing that interested me.
> 
> I can tell you, this is not unique here in MA world. I on and off going to firearm forum as I was very into shooting for years before. I am absolutely surprised after there are so much improvement in handguns in the last 40 years that there are a lot of people still die hard on the old 1911 that was designed over 100 years ago.
> 
> ...


I love my colt gold cup trophy! Bill Wilson from Wilson combat tricked mine out. It’s more accurate than my Glock but very heavy and only 8 rounds. My  FNH 5.7 is light and very accurate but still full size.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I suspect there's been a failure of communication here. It's not about which word is used, but what that says about the motion. A katana cutting motion (had you copied it well) would not be a good platform for blunt striking. It's just not terribly efficient for that purpose. There are similar-looking techniques for staff (bo/jo/hanbo) that serve better, because they are focused on delivering striking force. A chopping motion would be closer to a striking motion.
> 
> So the reason folks wanted you to be aware it's a cut, rather than a chop, is that a cut isn't an efficient technique for a strike. And just leaving out a part of a technique doesn't usually make it useful for a different approach.


I mainly looking at the motion knowing that there's really nothing that is completely the same for blunt instrument strike. I totally understand there is cutting in the katana movement that* I don't copy*. But after all the talk, I sat back and think about it. Between baseball bet swing, machete chop, the motion of the katana is still the closest. Baseball bet swing is very different, people put everything into one swing. You can see if they miss the ball, they lose balance to the point they have to take a step forward to regain balance. They is absolutely not good and not to be copied in stick fight. Machete is swung by one hand, so it's not the same. So the Katana chop/cut still the closest. So I just look at it as "chopping".

*The only one that I really learn is from Blindside(Lamont Glass) here on casting*. That's so far, the only strike I am using. More compact from the casting motion. Hit hard and pull back without the need of bouncing on the elbow like irish, bouncing on the ground like tapado, not swinging wild like one hand escrima. I find a lot of the style are for competition where you have a wide open space. Those are not useful for real life situation where there are lots of obstacles around in confined space.





That is like chopping while reaching out. Then pull back. It's more compact. I practice around furniture and narrower space.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I love my colt gold cup trophy! Bill Wilson from Wilson combat tricked mine out. It’s more accurate than my Glock but very heavy and only 8 rounds. My  FNH 5.7 is light and very accurate but still full size.


Gold Cup and 1911 are good for target shooting and competitions where the trigger is the most important. But a lot of people still use it for self defense, CCW. Those are times good trigger action, accuracy is of secondary. Reliability, safety and weight and how many rounds it can hold is the utmost important.

I already pointed out a few points in the last post why 1911 is less reliable by design(or the lack of). It is so heavy for carry and only 8 rounds. It must be about 40oz vs Glock and S&W MP etal that are in 25oz give and take. All carry 15 to 17 rounds of 9mm. They do NOT have a hair trigger even with a round in the chamber, not like 1911 either don't load the chamber(slow) or cocked and locked( still extra step to push the safety down before pulling the trigger). It is so much inferior for CCW and self defense.

Yes, I use my Gold Cup that I further accurized for competitions and some target shooting(too expensive, I practice with a Ruger Mark II bull barrel, just one time with 45 before competitions). It did jam on me during competition. That's ok, BUT it's NOT ok if my life depends on it. Even the old S&W 659 is much more reliable after I fixed it. It's the two piece feedramp that cannot be fixed. 1911 can be reliable with FMJ, not JHP. For self defense living in city, JHP is very important.

I am not into shooting anymore, I bought a Glock 26 last year, I yet to go shoot it. It's light and small. In Kalif, we are limited to 10 rounds, it's perfect, so small and light. Workmanship is very good. I am looking at S&W M&P if I buy another one. Polymer is the way to go, no more aluminum frame and steel frame. Glock revolutionize the hand gun in the last 30 years.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> For now I'm just by myself. I've thought about a trainer, but realistically, there just aren't any in my area, and I'd have to go far afield to find one. Additionally, I'd probably try to get someone who had the time to train me privately so that we could adapt moves to fit what my body is able to do, and not every trainer has time for that.
> 
> Of course, training on your own is not the best, but if you're diligent, I like to think it is better than nothing. I've talked to some trainers online for specific advice, too.


If you train by yourself like me, having heavy bag is very very important. I hung two heavy bags so I can go back and fore, one is 100lbs longer so I can do kicking to the knee practice. Of cause striking to the knee with the cane.

Good luck.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I mainly looking at the motion knowing that there's really nothing that is completely the same for blunt instrument strike. I totally understand there is cutting in the katana movement that* I don't copy*. But after all the talk, I sat back and think about it. Between baseball bet swing, machete chop, the motion of the katana is still the closest. Baseball bet swing is very different, people put everything into one swing. You can see if they miss the ball, they lose balance to the point they have to take a step forward to regain balance. They is absolutely not good and not to be copied in stick fight. Machete is swung by one hand, so it's not the same. So the Katana chop/cut still the closest. So I just look at it as "chopping".
> 
> *The only one that I really learn is from Blindside(Lamont Glass) here on casting*. That's so far, the only strike I am using. More compact from the casting motion. Hit hard and pull back without the need of bouncing on the elbow like irish, bouncing on the ground like tapado, not swinging wild like one hand escrima. I find a lot of the style are for competition where you have a wide open space. Those are not useful for real life situation where there are lots of obstacles around in confined space.
> 
> ...


You’ve repeatedly referred to escrima strikes as “wild”. They are not. This is the kind of misunderstanding I’m referring to. Evaluating individual techniques, when you don’t understand them, leads to problems. The evaluation of a baseball swing as an attack technique is like trying to evaluate gymnastics tumbling as defensive moves.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 8, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You’ve repeatedly referred to escrima strikes as “wild”. They are not. This is the kind of misunderstanding I’m referring to. Evaluating individual techniques, when you don’t understand them, leads to problems. The evaluation of a baseball swing as an attack technique is like trying to evaluate gymnastics tumbling as defensive moves.


NO, I understand, I practice 5 months of single handed, I really practiced. there is no way to swing in compact way with single hand unless you use a very light stick. You have to swing with arm extended to get enough power and you cannot stop it in time. Look at all the videos, it takes a lot of space to swing, nothing like casting with two hands. If you don't swing with hands extended with white chopping, you won't have power. You ever try that? Are you into stick fight?

Did you read a lot of people said two hand swing is like baseball bet swing? that's how people describe two hands swing.

That's the thing, when people don't agree here, they accuse the others DON'T understand. this is very simple stuff. Just because I am not an expert doesn't mean I don't know how to watch. this is simple stuff and everything has to follow PHYSICS which I know a lot. Please don't talk down to me. I spent so much time thinking about this.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 8, 2022)

The attributes of the weapon will dictate the hand and foot and body positions. 

Yes, in FMA styles many do say the knuckles line up with the blade. This is good for basic level training. 
To learn a pattern and to hide blade work until the student is truly trusted and not going to go out and hurt people. 

Yet, one is not going to hit with your knuckles (middle) . open it up and the knife hand strike is there. The hammer fist is there. Yet the body adjusts to get to the proper angle. 

At the mid levels and higher levels for colored belt one begins to learn the differences as well as the similarities between the weapons. 

Alan, you might be working with some members here online. 
I really think you would be well served to actually train in person with someone.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> The attributes of the weapon will dictate the hand and foot and body positions.
> 
> Yes, in FMA styles many do say the knuckles line up with the blade. This is good for basic level training.
> To learn a pattern and to hide blade work until the student is truly trusted and not going to go out and hurt people.
> ...


I watch a lot of videos already(escrima, tapado, irish and hanbo). I have not find any I remotely like so far. There's not many schools around here either. If I were in Seattle, I would like  *Blackbird Training Group where Blindside(Lamont Glass) *is.

It's not like MA where I know what I like if I ever want to go to school, I have both Gracie BJJ and UFC both within one mile from me. I want something that is effective, down to earth, nothing showy and fancy that good for watching only.

I don't follow you on knuckles line up with blade. Yes, I use fist to punch and also hammer fist. I punch and kick pole for 20 years to prepare my knuckles to punch the head.





I punch and kick a lot of heavy bags, that doesn't prepare the knuckle in punching head at all. I even stuffed my bags to make it harder.


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## jstacy1228 (Sep 9, 2022)

Yanli said:


> It is great that you found your perfect weapon, however, keep in mind that you may not always have that weapon. I tell my students to practice with many different types of weapons, this way, the learn to grab anything and use it effectively as a weapon.


Although I carry a cane on the plane--because I need it to walk anyway--I would hazard that it is one of those things that would really get in my way if I tried to use it in a defense scenario in this environment. Of course, you can choke up on it, but you're still dealing with something around three feet or so (average user length) at any given time. 

With the cramped quarters of the cabin, particularly in standard economy, I'd almost be better served with something much shorter or just hands. Of course, I've never had occasion to test any of that in that environment. I also wonder if the tight quarters and seat backs would not be advantageous to someone like me who would have balance problems without the cane in hand...


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> Although I carry a cane on the plane--because I need it to walk anyway--I would hazard that it is one of those things that would really get in my way if I tried to use it in a defense scenario in this environment. Of course, you can choke up on it, but you're still dealing with something around three feet or so (average user length) at any given time.
> 
> With the cramped quarters of the cabin, particularly in standard economy, I'd almost be better served with something much shorter or just hands. Of course, I've never had occasion to test any of that in that environment. I also wonder if the* tight quarters and seat backs would not be advantageous to someone like me who would have balance problems without the cane in hand...*


Cane is not too useful in the plane, it's too tight.

For your example in tight quarters, That's when good upper body strength comes in play a lot. Strength is every bit as important as technique. When two people with comparable skill, strength can make a huge different even if the person is not as skilled. Look at Royce Gracie fight against Matt Huges. Who dare to question Gracie's skill. He got creamed in less than two minutes. Huges just out muscled Gracie, flatten him and rain down punches until referee stopped the fight.

To get into position to apply the skill, one need to juggle into position, it's like tuck of war. That's when strength comes in. In perfect position, you don't need strength to do a submission, but getting to the position need all the strength you have. Same as striking, if you are in perfect position, you don't need strength, but you seldom get into the perfect position, raw strength of striking without perfect body motion becomes important to knock the opponent down,

If I have to choose between MA or weight training, it's not even a close call, I drop MA like a rock.

Also, strength is very important for everyday living. My mother-in-law had parkinsen disease at the time, she had to be put into a group home because she cannot get up the stairs in her house from the garage. If she had more strength, she could have use the two hands to grab onto the handrails and pull herself up step by step. She could have lived at home. As people gets older, strength is very important for the quality of life.

Like I said before, after I had the surgery, my whole lower body was useless. I literally pull myself up from bed, got into and out of car just by using my hands. The lower body was just dead weight for a few days. I survive without problem.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> NO, I understand, I practice 5 months of single handed, I really practiced. there is no way to swing in compact way with single hand unless you use a very light stick. You have to swing with arm extended to get enough power and you cannot stop it in time. Look at all the videos, it takes a lot of space to swing, nothing like casting with two hands. If you don't swing with hands extended with white chopping, you won't have power. You ever try that? Are you into stick fight?
> 
> Did you read a lot of people said two hand swing is like baseball bet swing? that's how people describe two hands swing.
> 
> That's the thing, when people don't agree here, they accuse the others DON'T understand. this is very simple stuff. Just because I am not an expert doesn't mean I don't know how to watch. this is simple stuff and everything has to follow PHYSICS which I know a lot. Please don't talk down to me. I spent so much time thinking about this.


I’ve had training in stock fighting, specifically FMA (escrima). You say you practiced that swing, but by your description of it, you practiced what you think that swing is. It works easier with a rattan stick, yes, but if you do it properly, it can provide a more compact swing (with reasonable speed) with a larger, heavier stick. I practice it with a cane on a regular basis. 

As to the other, Americans tend to use baseball as a reference, since most Americans have seen that swing (and the grip used with it). But I’ve never seen an actual baseball swing (the way you’d hit a pitch) taught, except perhaps as a “killing move” to finish (and I’d question the ethics of that). You can take a baseball grip or golf grip without taking that big swing. And a baseball grip isn’t designed for cutting (or chopping), so is a better platform for starting to practice compact 2-handed swings with a stick, in my opinion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2022)

jstacy1228 said:


> Although I carry a cane on the plane--because I need it to walk anyway--I would hazard that it is one of those things that would really get in my way if I tried to use it in a defense scenario in this environment. Of course, you can choke up on it, but you're still dealing with something around three feet or so (average user length) at any given time.
> 
> With the cramped quarters of the cabin, particularly in standard economy, I'd almost be better served with something much shorter or just hands. Of course, I've never had occasion to test any of that in that environment. I also wonder if the tight quarters and seat backs would not be advantageous to someone like me who would have balance problems without the cane in hand...


Using a cane from the center (staff grip), it functions nicely as a compact weapon. This leads to focusing more on lateral strikes (striking with the middle of the cane), pokes, and quick cross-strikes.


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## wab25 (Sep 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> If I were in Seattle, I would like *Blackbird Training Group where Blindside(Lamont Glass) *is.


So why do you discount most of his techniques? I did not know that was your guy, when I found the video that I did. However, you already deemed most of what he does as useless. You found one technique he does, that you like.... but you discount his one handed strikes, his hanbo style strikes, his cane style strikes.... everything he does, with the exception of the one you like. Since you already mastered that.... you would have no reason to train there... Especially when they worked on the one handed stuff or the hanbo style stuff or.... Don't tell me you would go train with him, while at the same time telling me how useless you deem most of his techniques.



Alan0354 said:


> Cane is not too useful in the plane, it's too tight.


A cane could be plenty useful in a plane... if you learn to use it as something other than a katana. But, you would have to learn the one hand stuff and the two thumbs in stuff.



Alan0354 said:


> That's the thing, when people don't agree here, they accuse the others DON'T understand. this is very simple stuff. Just because I am not an expert doesn't mean I don't know how to watch. this is simple stuff and everything has to follow PHYSICS which I know a lot. Please don't talk down to me. I spent so much time thinking about this.


Understand... some of the folks trying to give you advice, have more decades worth of actual training with these weapons than you have years in self training with your cane. Heck some have double or triple the decades of training to your year and a half. The videos you show of your mastery of the cane... is clear evidence that you do not understand. You have shown the video of the guy you are copying... but that only shows how much you don't understand. The advice given here has been in an effort to help you become more effective.... and it has come from people with multiple decades of training and teaching....

But hey, you found your technique, and you are happy with it. I hope it works for you, I hope your attacker announces his intentions in advance so you have time to assume your posture... I hope he stays 6 feet away from you, so that you can employ your technique... I hope he does not take advantage of the openings you have when you do your version of the technique... I hope you never have to use your technique to find out how effective it really is...


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 9, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I love my colt gold cup trophy! Bill Wilson from Wilson combat tricked mine out. It’s more accurate than my Glock but very heavy and only 8 rounds. My  FNH 5.7 is light and very accurate but still full size.


My choice 99% of the time is a Glock 19. It's light, easily concealed, plenty of capacity, rock solid reliable, and more accurate than I am.


Alan0354 said:


> Gold Cup and 1911 are good for target shooting and competitions where the trigger is the most important. But a lot of people still use it for self defense, CCW. Those are times good trigger action, accuracy is of secondary. Reliability, safety and weight and how many rounds it can hold is the utmost important.


I've never had a reliability problem with any of my 1911's. The 1911 is no less safe than any other handgun. Weight can certainly be an issue, but that is an entirely subjective, not objective, judgement. And ignores the ready availability of polymer 1911 handguns. Capacity is a purchasing decision.


Alan0354 said:


> I already pointed out a few points in the last post why 1911 is less reliable by design(or the lack of). It is so heavy for carry


Not for everyone.


Alan0354 said:


> and only 8 rounds.


My Para P14-45 holds 14+1. My Glock 41 (.45ACP, though not a 1911 design) holds 13+1. If capacity is a concern, carry more magazines. Try again.


Alan0354 said:


> It must be about 40oz vs Glock and S&W MP etal that are in 25oz give and take. All carry 15 to 17 rounds of 9mm.


15rnds of 9mm vs 15 rounds of .45ACP. Doesn't seem to support your argument.


Alan0354 said:


> They do NOT have a hair trigger even with a round in the chamber


Let me guess, you don't know how to modify guns? Glocks come with a factory pull of 6-8lbs. I think that's too much. My carry guns are all modified to have 4lb pulls. My bedside gun - a laser sighted, suppressed Glock 41 - has a 2lb pull.
You can have whatever trigger pull you like, with pretty much any gun.


Alan0354 said:


> , not like 1911 either don't load the chamber(slow)


I don't recall a single failure to chamber with any of my 1911's. Maybe the problem isn't the design?


Alan0354 said:


> or cocked and locked( still extra step to push the safety down before pulling the trigger).


Not really. When you draw, your thumb falls naturally on the safety. When your grip tightens, the safety disengages.


Alan0354 said:


> It is so much inferior for CCW and self defense.


It's really not.

As I have said more than once, the 1911 isn't generally my personal choice for EDC, primarily because of their weight. And that might well change if I were to buy a polymer 1911. But that's a far cry from saying that it's a bad choice. The 1911 is a great choice.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 9, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> My choice 99% of the time is a Glock 19. It's light, easily concealed, plenty of capacity, rock solid reliable, and more accurate than I am.
> 
> I've never had a reliability problem with any of my 1911's. The 1911 is no less safe than any other handgun. Weight can certainly be an issue, but that is an entirely subjective, not objective, judgement. And ignores the ready availability of polymer 1911 handguns. Capacity is a purchasing decision.
> 
> ...


The man knows his guns!


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 9, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> My choice 99% of the time is a Glock 19. It's light, easily concealed, plenty of capacity, rock solid reliable, and more accurate than I am.
> 
> I've never had a reliability problem with any of my 1911's. The 1911 is no less safe than any other handgun. Weight can certainly be an issue, but that is an entirely subjective, not objective, judgement. And ignores the ready availability of polymer 1911 handguns. Capacity is a purchasing decision.
> 
> ...


Do you use apex triggers in your Glock? My only Glock is a gen3 Glock 20 in 10mm. My fishing gun. I put a lone Wolf barrel and flat face apex trigger at 3.5 lbs. I also had the sled refinished and melted for my holosun 507c with primary arms chevron circle reticle,which I am in love with.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> My choice 99% of the time is a Glock 19. It's light, easily concealed, plenty of capacity, rock solid reliable, and more accurate than I am.
> 
> I've never had a reliability problem with any of my 1911's. The 1911 is no less safe than any other handgun. Weight can certainly be an issue, but that is an entirely subjective, not objective, judgement. And ignores the ready availability of polymer 1911 handguns. Capacity is a purchasing decision.
> I do gun smithing, I cannot make is reliable with CCI Blazer JHP. For FMJ, sure it's easy, but JHP with wide mouth, good luck. It's because the feed ramp is separated in two section that has a break in between. You have to do cocked and locked to make 1911 safe.
> ...


Do you do gun smithing? I do. Not just 1911, I smoothed out the double action of quite a few S&W revolvers doing all the internal polishing. I worked on my S&W 659 and Walther PPKS to make them very reliable, not like the Gold Cup. The difference is they all have one piece feedramp.

Glock has a long trigger travel, not crisp like 1911. Unless you said you can make it crisp like 1911!!! I made my Gold Cup a crisp around 3lbs. I don't want to go down to 2lbs, that's dangerous. I can press on the hammer hard when cocked and the hammer won't fall without pulling the trigger. That shows a good trigger job.

For carrying, weight is everything. NOW remember I am comparing polymer to 1911, don't mix in you Glock 41 to talk. 15 to 17 roundsof 9mm beats 8 rounds of 45 of 1911 any time of the day. Remember not a Glock 41.

i bought the gen 5 ejector and forged extractor for my Glock 26, I have not fit it in yet. I have not shot the gun because for the longest time, bullets are hard to find. I have no interest in changing the trigger action of my Glock, it's for self defense, not for target shooting. I want it heavy like the stock Glock. I am going to do some shooting before I decide anything I need to do on the Glock. It has strong reputation of not failing, if not failing, there's no reason to do anything. I inspect the internal of Glock, it's very well finished. Feedramp and chamber are smooth, not like those old guns that were rough inside. You should see how bad the inside of the Gold Cup looked before I worked on it. Glock is very different.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2022)

wab25 said:


> So why do you discount most of his techniques? I did not know that was your guy, when I found the video that I did. However, you already deemed most of what he does as useless. You found one technique he does, that you like.... but you discount his one handed strikes, his hanbo style strikes, his cane style strikes.... everything he does, with the exception of the one you like. Since you already mastered that.... you would have no reason to train there... Especially when they worked on the one handed stuff or the hanbo style stuff or.... Don't tell me you would go train with him, while at the same time telling me how useless you deem most of his techniques.
> 
> 
> A cane could be plenty useful in a plane... if you learn to use it as something other than a katana. But, you would have to learn the one hand stuff and the two thumbs in stuff.
> ...


Did you see my reply in post #118 that I uploaded an old video that I actually use the strikes in the hanbo with thumbs facing in and hit with both ends for close distance, and also use poking? That's the part I found useful before even watching the hanbo video.

As for your post of 3 more hanbo video in post #138, Don't you see how wide the guy swing with one hand in the first video? I tried long time ago with the back hand swing like the second video. Do you know they had a Japanese movie series in the early 60s about a blind samurai holding the sword like that to fight. It was very famous and everyone try to copy that. I did try swinging like that, it is NOT powerful. You ever try doing that and hit with a blunt instrument, you do NOT get power. Only the third video I watch that can be useful.

I don't know why you keep thinking that I only hit with both hand like the chopping motion of katana, That's only for long distance. I practice a lot on holding the cane with thumb facing in like in the video for close distance. AND from that experience, I can tell you it doesn't hit that hard BECAUSE I do a lot of hitting on the heavy bag. The only one that can hit hard is using the handle of the crook end and PUNCH out like punching with a fist in the video. Here is the video again if you miss that, you can see I hit with thumbs facing in for short distance:





I am not saying I am an expert, BUT I WATCH AND THINK. I came up with the move of holding the cane with thumbs facing in and hit 9 months before watching your video. The recording was old, I don't have any recent ones. You don't just blind follow, you think. You really think I did not try single handed swing? This is a video I recorded, put on youtube and I deleted from youtube long time ago. I put it back in today to show I did spend a few months on single hand and I quit.





As I repeat, I am not that good, BUT I do put in a lot of effort in researching. I refuse to blind follow. Also more importantly,* I don't have school in stick fight in my area. You think I never look for it? I even asked Blindside(Lamont Glass) whether he know any school in my area. None. *My option is very limited, not like MA where there is a UFC and Gracie BJJ close by.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Do you do gun smithing? I do. Not just 1911, I smoothed out the double action of quite a few S&W revolvers doing all the internal polishing. I worked on my S&W 659 and Walther PPKS to make them very reliable, not like the Gold Cup. The difference is they all have one piece feedramp.
> 
> Glock has a long trigger travel, not crisp like 1911. Unless you said you can make it crisp like 1911!!! I made my Gold Cup a crisp around 3lbs. I don't want to go down to 2lbs, that's dangerous. I can press on the hammer hard when cocked and the hammer won't fall without pulling the trigger. That shows a good trigger job.
> 
> ...


Firstly, the weight of a 1911 isn't really bad. I'm a Glock guy, and used to carry a 1911. I liked it quite a lot - the weight wasn't a factor for me.

You also seem to be conflating variables. You talk about limitations of the 1911 capacity, then compare it in .45 ACP to 9mm guns. Are you talking about the limitation of the gun or the round?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Firstly, the weight of a 1911 isn't really bad. I'm a Glock guy, and used to carry a 1911. I liked it quite a lot - the weight wasn't a factor for me.
> 
> You also seem to be conflating variables. You talk about limitations of the 1911 capacity, then compare it in .45 ACP to 9mm guns. Are you talking about the limitation of the gun or the round?


1911 comes with 9mm also, still single roll. Capacity of mag is still lower compare to Glock that can go up to 17. Even the Glock 41 45ACP standard mag is 13 rounds and at 27oz compare to 1911 8 rounds and something like 40oz.
GLOCK 41 Gen4

I know, 1911 has a very good feel, even with cocked and locked, still it's easy. But you have to look at other factors. For target and competition, definitely 1911. I cannot imagine Glock can do that good in target shooting where accuracy is of high importance.

Glock and 1911 are two completely different animals. target and competition, 1911 hands down. CCW, definitely Glock. I personally have a Gold Cup I made it very accurate, so I have one already. Would never use it for self defense. Even my S&W 659 and the Walther PPKS are a whole lot more reliable than the Gold Cup. I just cannot make it reliable for CCI Blazer JHP. For FMJ, sure it's reliable, be careful with JHP. I made my Walther PPKS reliable with Winchester Silver Tip that has a wide mouth JHP.

Until I test out my Glock 26, the S&W 659 is loaded under my bed. One thing good about the 659 and the PPKS, I can load the chamber and decock them by flipping the safety switch on, then switch to "off". Now the gun can be fired by just squeeze the trigger. No more unlock the safety before pulling the trigger like the 1911.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 9, 2022)

Sight alignment and trigger press. All modern handguns are fantastic weapons, but all are underpowered. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.... Close range precision marksmanship. The make and model matters not.


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## Steve (Sep 9, 2022)

How did a thread on tsa approved weapons turn into gun porn?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 9, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Sight alignment and trigger press. All modern handguns are fantastic weapons, but all are underpowered. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.... Close range precision marksmanship. The make and model matters not.


What is trigger press? Those for clamping handguns to test?

Why are modern handguns under power? It's all depends on the rounds. You have 10mm and 45 in modern ones. 9mm is very standard.

My experience is model matters a lot unless you put effort in accurizing it. Like my S&W 659 and Walther don't worth Chip (C=S) when comes to 25yds target shooting. I did not even try to do any accurization on those. The Gold Cup, Ruger Mark II bull barrel, S&W M19 and Colt Trooper 8" were accurate out of the box, Gold Cup just got better after I accurizing it.

Also, accurate is very relative. From my experience, most people don't shoot that well, all over the target at 25 years. for them, most gun are the same. I have a  friend that can shoot groups of 5 INSIDE the black at 25yds free standing. You better believe gun is EVERYTHING to him for accuracy. The better you are, the more you see the difference between guns. Even the bullets used make a difference. That's why people test and choose specific brand and model of bullets to get the best accuracy. You need a good shooter to see the difference between guns.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Why are modern handguns under power? It's all depends on the rounds. You have 10mm and 45 in modern ones. 9mm is very standard.


I have stood over or stood next to hundreds of people shot(many dead, many still very much alive) with a wide variety of rounds and weapons. Handguns are amazing tools, but the round has to hit the right spot to reliably do the trick. Doing that consistently in a fight has little to do with accessories and modifications to weapons. You can't Amazon your way to combat effectiveness. It is about fundamentals, a calm mind, priorities, and intentionality.

I'm not saying what you are articulating isn't important. I'm just sharing what my training and experience has taught me regarding what is important to winning fights when handguns are used.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I have stood over or stood next to hundreds of people shot(many dead, many still very much alive) with a wide variety of rounds and weapons. Handguns are amazing tools, but the round has to hit the right spot to reliably do the trick. Doing that consistently in a fight has little to do with accessories and modifications to weapons. You can't Amazon your way to combat effectiveness. It is about fundamentals, a calm mind, priorities, and intentionality.
> 
> I'm not saying what you are articulating isn't important. I'm just sharing what my training and experience has taught me regarding what is important to winning fights when handguns are used.


You are talking apple and orange. Accuracy is being able to shoot consistently at ONE spot when the gun is held down securely. You are talking about ease of hitting a target at close distance. They have NOTHING to do with each other. For my type of accuracy, one has to have very steady hands and good in pulling the trigger  AND last but very important, very good eyes.

In your situation, shooter is much more important than the gun. Might be some truth some guns fit some people better and more natural. But it depends mostly on the shooter. You are talking about situation of shooting distance of 5 yds or less, you don't need to hit dead center, you have a bigger area to shoot at, the inherent accuracy of the gun is NOT relevant at all, more how the gun fit into your natural aiming under stress and no time to really aim, so it's more important how good the gun can follow your hand rather how accurate the gun really is.

I mostly shooting for accuracy, not close distance bang bang bang. I always though if you just take 1/2 sec to aim, you might be much much better off than just bang bang bang. That 1/2 sec takes for aiming makes a day and night difference in accuracy.

I practiced holding the gun and pointed down and look away. Then turn look at the target and aim and shoot at 25yds. Allow 1/2sec or less from raise the gun to shoot. I still manage to get every single round on the paper at 25yds. Yes, it's all over the target, but all INSIDE the target. I would imagine if the target is 5 yds away, it would be very dead center. Seems like people changed to bang bang bang in the last 30 years after the higher capacity guns came onto the market. I guess I still belong to the 80s where people still using revolvers with 6 rounds and slow to reload even with speed loader. We trained to aim before shooting as we know we only have 6 rounds.

With a little aim before shooting, the different guns with different grips and different feel mostly  becomes irrelevant if you actually aim instead of bang bang bang. Because you are actually aiming through the sight and not depending on the natural grip of the gun.

We are talking apple and orange.

At least in my days, there were no range that allow bang bang bang. They kick you out!!! Maybe time changed. We had to go to indoor range to shoot shorter distance. 25yds was all we had in the range within 1/2hr driving.


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## Jared Traveler (Sep 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You are talking apple and orange. Accuracy is being able to shoot consistently at ONE spot when the gun is held down securely. You are talking about ease of hitting a target at close distance. They have NOTHING to do with each other.





Alan0354 said:


> But it depends mostly on the shooter. You are talking about situation of shooting distance of 5 yds or less, you don't need to hit dead center, you have a bigger area to shoot at, the inherent accuracy of the gun is NOT relevant at all,


What I'm speaking of isn't as far apart as you might imagine. I believe it's important to attempt to hit dead center even at close range. As I said, close range precision accuracy. I don't believe in just trying to hit the target, even at close range. But my opinion isn't standard thinking, so I can understand why you would imagine hitting the target is my goal at close range. But it isn't, I want to attempt to drop rounds in the same hole even at 5 feet.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> What I'm speaking of isn't as far apart as you might imagine. I believe it's important to attempt to hit dead center even at close range. As I said, close range precision accuracy. I don't believe in just trying to hit the target, even at close range. But my opinion isn't standard thinking, so I can understand why you would imagine hitting the target is my goal at close range. But it isn't, I want to attempt to drop rounds in the same hole even at 5 feet.


I am just being analytic. At even 10ft, all guns should be able to hit a very tight group if the shooter is good.

For example, if the gun can shoot in a 12" circle(6"radius) at 25yds(75ft) which is a pretty BAD gun. At distance of 7.5ft, that gun can shoot inside a 1.2" circle which is a very tight spot.  This means accuracy at say 10ft distance is all depends on the shooter, not the gun. That's why I said it's apple and orange. That's when the feel of the gun and natural aiming of the gun is more important in the situation you described rather than how accurate the gun really is.

I know, some guns just fit and more natural in my hands than others. I guess for close distance and under stressful situation, that becomes an important factor, not the real accuracy of the gun.

Of cause, I am not in career of a police that encounter those kind of situation. I don't want to say it's better or worst. More a question whether it would be beneficial to take a split second to aim before shooting. That will take the "feel" of the gun out of the equation because you actually use the sight, not rely on the natural feel to point the gun. just a question.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Do you use apex triggers in your Glock? My only Glock is a gen3 Glock 20 in 10mm. My fishing gun. I put a lone Wolf barrel and flat face apex trigger at 3.5 lbs. I also had the sled refinished and melted for my holosun 507c with primary arms chevron circle reticle,which I am in love with.


Were any of yours involved in the recall?
I actually like the Glock trigger, other than being too stiff and a bit mushy when it breaks. I twiddle the innards but keep the actual trigger.
I like Lone Wolf. I've got one of their extended, threaded barrels on my G41 to support the suppressor. I've never been a fan of those optics. I think it might be connected to my being a cyclops, but they just never did much for me. I do like a laser, but obviously I don't train with that.


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## Steve (Sep 10, 2022)

How do you guys get these guns through security in the airport?  😳


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Do you do gun smithing?


What part of "I" in my description of mods was unclear?


Alan0354 said:


> Glock has a long trigger travel, not crisp like 1911. Unless you said you can make it crisp like 1911!!!


It's mechanically impossible for a Glock trigger to feel like a single action trigger. But with a little tweaking, they are certainly more than adequate.


Alan0354 said:


> I don't want to go down to 2lbs, that's dangerous.


No, it's not.


Alan0354 said:


> I can press on the hammer hard when cocked and the hammer won't fall without pulling the trigger. That shows a good trigger job.


So your definition of "good" means "I didn't break it"?


Alan0354 said:


> For carrying, weight is everything.


No, it's not. It's ONE factor out of many that should be considered.


Alan0354 said:


> NOW remember I am comparing polymer to 1911, don't mix in you Glock 41 to talk.


Why not? There are plenty of polymer 1911 handguns available.


Alan0354 said:


> 15 to 17 roundsof 9mm beats 8 rounds of 45 of 1911 any time of the day.


Except that your 8 round limit is a false limit. It doesn't exist. 

Your argument revolves around two key points. Weight and magazine capacity. Both of which are false dichotomies. You shoot yourself in the foot by pretending polymer 1911 designs are not an option. And then you shoot more than 8 holes in your capacity argument by ignoring the availability of double stack 1911 designs.



Jared Traveler said:


> I have stood over or stood next to hundreds of people shot(many dead, many still very much alive) with a wide variety of rounds and weapons. Handguns are amazing tools, but the round has to hit the right spot to reliably do the trick. Doing that consistently in a fight has little to do with accessories and modifications to weapons. You can't Amazon your way to combat effectiveness. It is about fundamentals, a calm mind, priorities, and intentionality.


That is nothing new. With modern defensive ammo, the single most important factor in shot effectiveness is placement. Where handgun rounds are concerned, cavitation is a myth. This was an even bigger issue in the past.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> How do you guys get these guns through security in the airport?  😳


I travel domestically with a gun on a regular basis. The TSA has rules about traveling with a gun.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 10, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Were any of yours involved in the recall?
> I actually like the Glock trigger, other than being too stiff and a bit mushy when it breaks. I twiddle the innards but keep the actual trigger.
> I like Lone Wolf. I've got one of their extended, threaded barrels on my G41 to support the suppressor. I've never been a fan of those optics. I think it might be connected to my being a cyclops, but they just never did much for me. I do like a laser, but obviously I don't train with that.


No recall on mine. I’m in calif. so no threaded barrels or cans allowed. Restricted to 10 round mags. Handgun safety roster gets shorter every year. Cannot purchase ammo online. Background check on each ammo purchase. Two box limits on most calibers. Very restrictive as you can see. I understand your view on optics(see what I did there). I have a scar on my right cornea that makes most illuminated optics look like a flare. The one i mentioned above is unique. Take a look at a YouTube review on it. I hated that Glock trigger. I Shot it once and then gutted it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> How did a thread on tsa approved weapons turn into gun porn?


There was gun porn? Where? I missed it.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> How do you guys get these guns through security in the airport?  😳


Unloaded and In a locked container, declared and checked.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 10, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What part of "I" in my description of mods was unclear?
> 
> It's mechanically impossible for a Glock trigger to feel like a single action trigger. But with a little tweaking, they are certainly more than adequate.
> 
> ...


The problem for us Californians is that we cannot purchase just any model of gun. The second problem is double stack ten round mags isnt much different than 8 round single stack mags. 10 is the limit.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> The problem for us Californians is that we cannot purchase just any model of gun. The second problem is double stack ten round mags isnt much different than 8 round single stack mags. 10 is the limit.


Sure. But that's a local limitation, not a limitation of the firearm. Especially when the person is touting other calibers based on their higher magazine capacity.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 10, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. But that's a local limitation, not a limitation of the firearm. Especially when the person is touting other calibers based on their higher magazine capacity.


Fair point.


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## Steve (Sep 10, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Unloaded and In a locked container, declared and checked.


Awesome.  Do you think the container would work well as an improvised weapon?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> What part of "I" in my description of mods was unclear?
> 
> It's mechanically impossible for a Glock trigger to feel like a single action trigger. But with a little tweaking, they are certainly more than adequate.
> 
> ...


You are just argue for the sake of arguement. You mean they have 1911 *original design* with polymer and high capacity? That is with *small* *side ejection port, two piece feedramp, original single action cocked and locked? *If you talk about anything that is not like that, that's NOT original 1911. I have to look at them more specifically.

You really don't know gun smithing. Pushing the hammer when it is cocked to make sure it doesn't drop is THE MOST IMPORTANT TEST on the safety of the single action trigger. You really need to LEARN!!!

YES, 2lbs trigger is TOO LIGHT to me. I am careful, I THINK of the consequence. That's why the old Government model was like at least 4 to 6lbs minimum because it's not for target and competition. I went competition with My Gold Cup that is about 3lbs, no issue. I won the 2nd price one time.

WRONG, my arguement  of weight and capacity is actually of *SECOND* importance. It's the* RELIABILITY*. I talked about the two piece feedramp that BY DESIGN is inferior to all the newer one piece feedramp that do NOT have  kink in the middle of the ramp, that the head of the bullet don't have to jump across the break when sliding on the feedramp into the chamber. For FMJ, it's ok, not for wide mouth JHP. It jammed on me during competition!!! No matter how I smooth out the ramp, it just didn't work. I should have use FMJ for that!!!

Also, the small side ejection port is small, one has to really shape the extractor to pull the shell out at an angle to avoid hitting the side of the ejection port. This is SIMPLE stuff. These are all common sense stuffs.

Another thing is most modern guns are much safer with a round in the chamber without the need to put the safety on. So when needed, just pull the trigger and the gun will fire. 1911 has to be cocked and locked to be safe. Then when needed, you have to do one more step to push the safety down before pulling the trigger. This is slower.

Most of the modern guns have one piece continuous feedramp so there is no chance for bullet to get hung in the middle when feeding. The ejection port literally the whole top of the slide so it's not critical the angle of the shell ejection. those are improvement over the old 1911 design. My S&W 659 and Walther PPKS both are old designs, they both have features of dropping the hammer when putting the safety on. Then you can take the safety off after loading the chamber, the next time, you only have to pull the trigger and it will fire. It's like first shot in double action.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> How do you guys get these guns through security in the airport?  😳


Far as I know, you have to check in inside the luggage, you cannot carry onto the main cabinet. You have to declare when you check in. I did it one time going to Florida, they went through my luggage and cut open my pillow!!!


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## Buka (Sep 10, 2022)

Steve said:


> How do you guys get these guns through security in the airport?  😳


For decades, either in a holster or in my pocket. Not sure now, though. May have to catch one on the other side.

I’m going to miss flying armed.


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## Steve (Sep 10, 2022)

Buka said:


> For decades, either in a holster or in my pocket. Not sure now, though. May have to catch one on the other side.
> 
> I’m going to miss flying armed.



Ah the good old days.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2022)

Should have a firearm section here, looks like a lot of people are into guns here.

I guess this thread has long run out of steam already, whatever topic is of interest goes.

I was so into it in the 80s, me and my wife went to the range Sat and Sun every week for years shooting up a storm. Average blowing like 500 rounds each time. I stopped in the early 90s. But I still have all the guns, must be like 20 of them, but who's counting. Biggest one is 357mag, never have a 44mag. I have tiny Freedom Arms 22mag pistols, the shortest one has 1" barrel, weight about 4oz. I mainly into handguns, only one 22LR riffle and one shotgun.

Two reasons I quit, first, it got boring after so many years. Second and more importantly, I asked myself whether I can live with taking someone's life, be it a thug in self defense. I don't think I can get over it no matter how justify it is. Now, just have my loaded S&W 659 under my bed.

I bought a Glock 26 last year after all the crimes around the country and attacks on older Asians. I yet to shoot the gun. That was right before I picked up cane fight. Cane fight was the only reason I join this place. I bought all the upgrade parts for the Glock, but never get to it yet. Everything is still brand new in the box.

Towards the end of my shooting period, I was more into gun smithing, it's more interesting to me than punching holes on the target. You don't need a lot of tools to do that, I have most of the tools already other than the huge vise for squeezing the slide during the accurization process. I used the big one on the milling machine in the company's shop when I was working. It is easy enough if one has mechanical attitude, nothing compare to auto mechanics. Just need patience to polish slowly.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Awesome.  Do you think the container would work well as an improvised weapon?


Most would, yes. You're required to use a rigid case, so it could likely be used as a blunt force weapon. The ones I travel with most often are a small case that fits my G19 with ammo and extra mags. The holsters go in my regular baggage. Or the one dubbed "the assassin kit" by one of our kids.

  
This one holds my Glock 41 with the extended barrel, the light/laser, the custom holster that fits that combo, two extra magazines, the mag pouch, a couple boxes of ammo, the suppressor, and a copy of my ATF permit. It's the size of a thick briefcase, so it's a bit unwieldy for an improvised weapon, but not useless. It certainly has the mass for it, though.



Alan0354 said:


> You are just argue for the sake of arguement.


No, I point out where you're wrong. 


Alan0354 said:


> You mean they have 1911 *original design* with polymer and high capacity? That is with *small* *side ejection port, two piece feedramp, original single action cocked and locked? *If you talk about anything that is not like that, that's NOT original 1911. I have to look at them more specifically.


So you want to limit the discussion to 100+ year old guns. Wake up. It's not 1922 anymore. It's 2022. Technology and engineering have improved. And the out-of-date 1911 designs have been updated. Both weight and capacity arguments are moot, thanks to the ready availability of double stack and polymer 1911 handguns. Not to mention extended magazines. It's not the least bit difficult to find 15 round magazines that will fit a vintage WWII 1911 just fine.


Alan0354 said:


> You really don't know gun smithing. Pushing the hammer when it is cocked to make sure it doesn't drop is THE MOST IMPORTANT TEST on the safety of the single action trigger.


Sure, it's an important test. But it is not, despite what you wrote, the test. It is merely one of several.


Alan0354 said:


> You really need to LEARN!!!


I do, constantly. I highly recommend it.


Alan0354 said:


> YES, 2lbs trigger is TOO LIGHT to me.


OK, fine. But that isn't what you wrote. If that is what you meant, then that is what you should have written. 


Alan0354 said:


> That's why the old Government model was like at least 4 to 6lbs minimum because it's not for target and competition.


Well, no, it was 4-6lbs because it was mass produced for distribution to huge numbers of people with minimal training. 


Alan0354 said:


> I went competition with My Gold Cup that is about 3lbs, no issue. I won the 2nd price one time.


So you were the best loser. Congratulations.


Alan0354 said:


> WRONG, my arguement  of weight and capacity is actually of *SECOND* importance. It's the* RELIABILITY*.


Reliability is no more an issue than weight or capacity.


Alan0354 said:


> I talked about the two piece feedramp that BY DESIGN is inferior to all the newer one piece feedramp that do NOT have  kink in the middle of the ramp, that the head of the bullet don't have to jump across the break when sliding on the feedramp into the chamber. For FMJ, it's ok, not for wide mouth JHP. It jammed on me during competition!!! No matter how I smooth out the ramp, it just didn't work. I should have use FMJ for that!!!


Sure, the 1911 was originally designed for FMJ rounds. But, as I said before, this is not 1922. It is 2022. And these issues have all been resolved. You should modernize.


Alan0354 said:


> Also, the small side ejection port is small,


Are you with the Department of Redundancy Department?


Alan0354 said:


> one has to really shape the extractor to pull the shell out at an angle to avoid hitting the side of the ejection port. This is SIMPLE stuff. These are all common sense stuffs.


And all "stuffs [sic]" that have been addressed.


Alan0354 said:


> Another thing is most modern guns are much safer with a round in the chamber without the need to put the safety on. So when needed, just pull the trigger and the gun will fire.


Very true, especially for striker fired handguns. Personally, the 1911 is the *only* handgun with a thumb safety that I will carry.


Alan0354 said:


> 1911 has to be cocked and locked to be safe.


No it doesn't. It is perfectly safe to carry a 1911 with the hammer down. With or without a round in the chamber. Doing so, of course, requires you to either hand cock it or rack the slide, and those certainly take time. Cocked and locked is the best choice if you're carrying for personal defense.

Some people find that the hammer being cocked digs into their love handles (ditto the beaver tail). The easy solution to that is a spring change. The gun is loaded as usual, the thumb safety is engaged, and the hammer is pushed down with your thumb. The gun remains cocked and locked, and disengaging the thumb safety will cause the hammer to pop back into the normal cocked position. A little file work to shorten the beaver tail, and the 1911 is much more comfortable to carry. I've done this with my SigSauer 1911 Target and am considering doing it to others.


Alan0354 said:


> Then when needed, you have to do one more step to push the safety down before pulling the trigger. This is slower.


No, it's not. When I grasp a 1911 in the holster, my thumb is naturally resting on the safety. When I squeeze, that will disengage the safety. That happens during the draw, as soon as the gun clears the holster. The gun is ready to fire well before it is on target. If that is not true for you, then I suggest that the problem is you, not the gun.


Alan0354 said:


> Most of the modern guns have one piece continuous feedramp so there is no chance for bullet to get hung in the middle when feeding. The ejection port literally the whole top of the slide so it's not critical the angle of the shell ejection. those are improvement over the old 1911 design.


Yes, because most of the world understands that it is now 2022.


Alan0354 said:


> My S&W 659 and Walther PPKS both are old designs, they both have features of dropping the hammer when putting the safety on.


I know what a decocker is and how it works. I suspect most of the people reading this do.


Alan0354 said:


> Then you can take the safety off after loading the chamber, the next time, you only have to pull the trigger and it will fire.


Except for those rare but unfortunate times that holstering the gun reactivated the safety/decocker, and it won't fire. 
There may well be exceptions, but every decocker I have ever seen is pushed down to decock and lock the weapon. The opposite of the 1911 thumb safety. This is what makes it possible for holstering the gun to inadvertently engage the safety. This also means you cannot as easily disengage the safety during the draw. This is why the 1911 is the sole exception to my personal "no thumb safeties" rule.


Alan0354 said:


> It's like first shot in double action.


No it's not. It *IS* the first shot in double action. Only double action firearms have decockers. The only striker fired pistol I can think of is the old Taurus 24/7 OSS. And it was junk. The H&K P7 had the striker disengaged (effectively the same as decocked) but had a weird squeeze safety on the front of the grip that cocked the striker when you drew. Just like gripping the 1911 disengages the thumb safety. Also gone now. One of the reasons striker fired handguns have grown in popularity so quickly is that it eliminates that DA first round. Because DA sucks.


----------



## Steve (Sep 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most would, yes. You're required to use a rigid case, so it could likely be used as a blunt force weapon. The ones I travel with most often are a small case that fits my G19 with ammo and extra mags. The holsters go in my regular baggage. Or the one dubbed "the assassin kit" by one of our kids.
> View attachment 28862 View attachment 28863 View attachment 28864
> This one holds my Glock 41 with the extended barrel, the light/laser, the custom holster that fits that combo, two extra magazines, the mag pouch, a couple boxes of ammo, the suppressor, and a copy of my ATF permit. It's the size of a thick briefcase, so it's a bit unwieldy for an improvised weapon, but not useless. It certainly has the mass for it, though.



Your post is pretty cuckoo, But at least it’s on topic now.  Well, the first 10% of it at least. 

Seems like this is particularly impractical as an improvised weapon compared to just about everything else that was already mentioned.  Why do you think this is better than a pen or a cane?  Heck, how would this be a better improvised weapon to get through TSA than, say, an actual brief case?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most would, yes. You're required to use a rigid case, so it could likely be used as a blunt force weapon. The ones I travel with most often are a small case that fits my G19 with ammo and extra mags. The holsters go in my regular baggage. Or the one dubbed "the assassin kit" by one of our kids.
> View attachment 28862 View attachment 28863 View attachment 28864
> This one holds my Glock 41 with the extended barrel, the light/laser, the custom holster that fits that combo, two extra magazines, the mag pouch, a couple boxes of ammo, the suppressor, and a copy of my ATF permit. It's the size of a thick briefcase, so it's a bit unwieldy for an improvised weapon, but not useless. It certainly has the mass for it, though.
> 
> ...


That what I was talking about those with decocker that the first shot is double action. You are not very good in reading. You have problem understand English? that's what I was talking!!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Awesome.  Do you think the container would work well as an improvised weapon?


Lol! I suppose it would, I buy sturdy containers. That’s a very nice turn Steve! Bravo!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Ah the good old days.


🤣


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most would, yes. You're required to use a rigid case, so it could likely be used as a blunt force weapon. The ones I travel with most often are a small case that fits my G19 with ammo and extra mags. The holsters go in my regular baggage. Or the one dubbed "the assassin kit" by one of our kids.
> View attachment 28862 View attachment 28863 View attachment 28864
> This one holds my Glock 41 with the extended barrel, the light/laser, the custom holster that fits that combo, two extra magazines, the mag pouch, a couple boxes of ammo, the suppressor, and a copy of my ATF permit. It's the size of a thick briefcase, so it's a bit unwieldy for an improvised weapon, but not useless. It certainly has the mass for it, though.
> 
> ...


Lol! “The assassin kit”


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Your post is pretty cuckoo, But at least it’s on topic now.  Well, the first 10% of it at least.
> 
> Seems like this is particularly impractical as an improvised weapon compared to just about everything else that was already mentioned.  Why do you think this is better than a pen or a cane?  Heck, how would this be a better improvised weapon to get through TSA than, say, an actual brief case?


It’s better because it is made to take damage and an actual briefcase is made for looking snazzy. But come on, what’s cooler than an assassin kit? Either way, it’s not going in cabin of the plane with you unless you are @Buka. Apparently, none of your carryons are going on with you in the cabin anymore either.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 11, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most would, yes. You're required to use a rigid case, so it could likely be used as a blunt force weapon. The ones I travel with most often are a small case that fits my G19 with ammo and extra mags. The holsters go in my regular baggage. Or the one dubbed "the assassin kit" by one of our kids.
> View attachment 28862 View attachment 28863 View attachment 28864
> This one holds my Glock 41 with the extended barrel, the light/laser, the custom holster that fits that combo, two extra magazines, the mag pouch, a couple boxes of ammo, the suppressor, and a copy of my ATF permit. It's the size of a thick briefcase, so it's a bit unwieldy for an improvised weapon, but not useless. It certainly has the mass for it, though.
> 
> ...


That’s some fancy hardware there partner.


----------



## Steve (Sep 11, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lol! I suppose it would, I buy sturdy containers. That’s a very nice turn Steve! Bravo!


Looks like a pelican case to me. Those things are good for more than holding guns.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 11, 2022)

Steve said:


> Looks like a pelican case to me. Those things are good for more than holding guns.


Im a fan. I have a couple.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Most would, yes. You're required to use a rigid case, so it could likely be used as a blunt force weapon. The ones I travel with most often are a small case that fits my G19 with ammo and extra mags. The holsters go in my regular baggage. Or the one dubbed "the assassin kit" by one of our kids.
> View attachment 28862 View attachment 28863 View attachment 28864
> This one holds my Glock 41 with the extended barrel, the light/laser, the custom holster that fits that combo, two extra magazines, the mag pouch, a couple boxes of ammo, the suppressor, and a copy of my ATF permit. It's the size of a thick briefcase, so it's a bit unwieldy for an improvised weapon, but not useless. It certainly has the mass for it, though.
> 
> ...


I’m curious, what else goes in the assassin kit?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> [Insults deleted]





Steve said:


> Seems like this is particularly impractical as an improvised weapon compared to just about everything else that was already mentioned.


I agree, especially the larger one. I even said that quite clearly, so it's nice that you and I can agree on something.


Steve said:


> Why do you think this is better than a pen or a cane?


I'm sorry, but I do not recall saying that. Or even implying it. Not even a hint. The question asked was if firearm travel cases could be used as improvised weapons. The answer is: yes. I did say the smaller, lighter case would probably be better than the larger, heavier case in most circumstances, but at no time did I make any effort to rank every potential improvised weapon. 


Steve said:


> Heck, how would this be a better improvised weapon to get through TSA than, say, an actual brief case?


Maybe if you responded to what I actually wrote, instead of inventing things, this conversation would make more sense.

Actual briefcases are flimsy things, intended to be light weight and look spiffy. But they could certainly be useful as improvised weapons. 

Before you reply, though, let me explicitly point out that I am not ranking any of the aforementioned improvised weapons, in this or any other post, by me or any other poster, in this or any other thread.


Alan0354 said:


> That what I was talking about those with decocker that the first shot is double action.


You said it was "like" the first shot of a DA firearm. Being "like" something does not mean being that something.


Alan0354 said:


> You are not very good in reading. You have problem understand English?


One of us seems to. Judging strictly by your writing, I wonder why you would think it was me?


Alan0354 said:


> that's what I was talking!!


Ummm, yes. A fine example of English.


Steve said:


> Looks like a pelican case to me. Those things are good for more than holding guns.


It is. And they certainly are. A pelican case, a chunk of foam, and a cutter can make a world-class case for pretty much anything you can carry.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I’m curious, what else goes in the assassin kit?


Nothing, typically. I keep my disguise kit elsewhere.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nothing, typically. I keep my disguise kit elsewhere.


Lol! No gadgets? Ninja suits etc?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 12, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> You said it was "like" the first shot of a DA firearm. Being "like" something does not mean being that something.


Stop nitpicking words just to argue, you know what I mean. It's double action the first shot and becomes single action. It's not a true double action like revolvers.


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

insults?  You mean where I pointed out your post was pretty cuckoo?  It was.  You're talking about an assassin's kit.  I would bet that most reasonable people who read your post, where you share pictures and a detailed description of your handgun with a suppressor and all that other stuff would agree with me that it's pretty far out there.  I attacked the post, not the poster.  And that post was pretty darn cuckoo.

But I also complimented you for posting on topic, at least some of it.   You didn't do as well with this one, though. 



Dirty Dog said:


> I agree, especially the larger one. I even said that quite clearly, so it's nice that you and I can agree on something.


It happens from time to time.  If you weren't so aggressively unfriendly, I bet we would agree on a lot of things. 



Dirty Dog said:


> I'm sorry, but I do not recall saying that. Or even implying it. Not even a hint. The question asked was if firearm travel cases could be used as improvised weapons. The answer is: yes. I did say the smaller, lighter case would probably be better than the larger, heavier case in most circumstances, but at no time did I make any effort to rank every potential improvised weapon.



It's the topic of the thread. You were way off topic.  I mean, on another continent.  I thought I'd see if I could bring you back by asking you questions related to the thread.  I wasn't trying to trick you or anything.  I was asking a question to see what you think about that question. 

Don't get me wrong, I know you are trying to be sarcastic and snarky, but that's on you, not me. 

Also, Pelican cases are awesome.  I use them for A/V equipment, and they're fantastic.  They're also pretty heavy, even empty.  So for use as an improvised weapon, I think they'd be pretty clumsy...  like swinging a large rock around (albeit one with a sturdy handle).  On a plane, I'm not sure they'd be of much use.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> insults?  You mean where I pointed out your post was pretty cuckoo?  It was.  You're talking about an assassin's kit.  I would bet that most reasonable people who read your post, where you share pictures and a detailed description of your handgun with a suppressor and all that other stuff would agree with me that it's pretty far out there.  I attacked the post, not the poster.  And that post was pretty darn cuckoo.
> 
> But I also complimented you for posting on topic, at least some of it.   You didn't do as well with this one, though.
> 
> ...


A good sturdy belt with a steel buckle would be my first bet on a plane. Or boiling water/tea/coffee from the flight attendant if I have time to plan my attack on the terrorist.


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> A good sturdy belt with a steel buckle would be my first bet on a plane. Or boiling water/tea/coffee from the flight attendant if I have time to plan my attack on the terrorist.


As someone who usually just drinks hot water on a plane, it's not that hot... might work if your attacker has VERY sensitive skin.   You'd probably be better off trying to squeeze the lemon in their eye.  (disclaimer: that is not a serious suggestion)

As for the belt, did you see @Kung Fu Wang 's belt?  👀👀


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> insults?  You mean where I pointed out your post was pretty cuckoo?  It was.  You're talking about an assassin's kit.  I would bet that most reasonable people who read your post, where you share pictures and a detailed description of your handgun with a suppressor and all that other stuff would agree with me that it's pretty far out there.  I attacked the post, not the poster.  And that post was pretty darn cuckoo.
> 
> But I also complimented you for posting on topic, at least some of it.   You didn't do as well with this one, though.
> 
> ...


Lots of people have similar firearms and accessories, he did say that the kids labeled it the assassins kit. I guess it’s perspective, I can’t have suppressors in California, but I certainly would if I could. It’s the kinder, gentler way to shoot. It is not silent, it is quieter. It is worth noting that almost always a suppressor reduces the ballistic efficiency of a firearm significantly due to the difference in pressure needed to cycle reliably. Suppressor isn’t evil, and doesn’t mean anything except protecting hearing and equally importantly, reducing muzzle flash and resultant blinding effects from discharge in a dark room. That’s why he has it on his nightstand pistol.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> As someone who usually just drinks hot water on a plane, it's not that hot... might work if your attacker has VERY sensitive skin.   You'd probably be better off trying to squeeze the lemon in their eye.  (disclaimer: that is not a serious suggestion)
> 
> As for the belt, did you see @Kung Fu Wang 's belt?  👀👀


That belt is not my style, my punk rock days are over. The hot water idea is just an idea for opening distraction.


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lots of people have similar firearms and accessories, he did say that the kids labeled it the assassins kit. I guess it’s perspective, I can’t have suppressors in California, but I certainly would if I could. It’s the kinder, gentler way to shoot. It is not silent, it is quieter. It is worth noting that almost always a suppressor reduces the ballistic efficiency of a firearm significantly due to the difference in pressure needed to cycle reliably. Suppressor isn’t evil, and doesn’t mean anything except protecting hearing and equally importantly, reducing muzzle flash and resultant blinding effects from discharge in a dark room. That’s why he has it on his nightstand pistol.



Sure.  Not trying to take the thread further off topic by dwelling on the post.  Suffice to say it's the incongruence of talking about all of that in the context of a thread that's not about guns at all.  Experiences vary, but speaking for myself, when I ask whether a container would work well as an improvised weapon, and in response, the other person describes their "assassin's kit" (his words, not mine) to me in great detail, with multiple pictures of his weapon... that's not something I'm doing... that's something THEY'RE doing.  Cuckoo is a very mild way to describe language and posting behavior that is, frankly, pretty alarming.  That wasn't a post intended to inform and discuss, it was to intimidate.


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That belt is not my style, my punk rock days are over. The hot water idea is just an idea for opening distraction.


Just saying... might as well not call it hot.  It's just water.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Sure.  Not trying to take the thread further off topic by dwelling on the post.  Suffice to say it's the incongruence of talking about all of that in the context of a thread that's not about guns at all.  Experiences vary, but speaking for myself, when I ask whether a container would work well as an improvised weapon, and in response, the other person describes their "assassin's kit" (his words, not mine) to me in great detail, with multiple pictures of his weapon... that's not something I'm doing... that's something THEY'RE doing.  Cuckoo is a very mild way to describe language and posting behavior that is, frankly, pretty alarming.  That wasn't a post intended to inform and discuss, it was to intimidate.


Threads often get pretty far off the original topic. You and I have certainly dragged a few off at an angle. 

As for the “assassin’s kit”, wasn’t that what his kids called it?


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Threads often get pretty far off the original topic. You and I have certainly dragged a few off at an angle.
> 
> As for the “assassin’s kit”, wasn’t that what his kids called it?


You are the staff and moderator, maybe you should put in words to create a gun sub forum here. The thread is DEAD already until I mentioned "gun"!!!! Look at how many pages of business since!!! All I did is using the 1911 as an example of so many people still hang onto this old stuff when there are so many new one on the market already. Did I get the biggest debate!!!!

Never realize so many people are into guns here.


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Threads often get pretty far off the original topic. You and I have certainly dragged a few off at an angle.
> 
> As for the “assassin’s kit”, wasn’t that what his kids called it?


Dude.  I asked whether the case was an effective improvised weapon. He posted a detailed description of the contents of his “assigns kit” and half dozen pictures.  Doesn’t matter who called it that first.  He called it that in this thread.

I wasn’t making a big deal out of this, but your guy is out of line.   Completely.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Dude.  I asked whether the case was an effective improvised weapon. He posted a detailed description of the contents of his “assigns kit” and half dozen pictures.  Doesn’t matter who called it that first.  He called it that in this thread.
> 
> I wasn’t making a big deal out of this, but your guy is out of line.   Completely.


He specifically mentioned his kids call it that. I'd guess they think it's funny. And his reference to them calling it such came before you asked if it was an effective improvised weapon. The two thoughts aren't really linked.


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> He specifically mentioned his kids call it that. I'd guess they think it's funny. And his reference to them calling it such came before you asked if it was an effective improvised weapon. The two thoughts aren't really linked.


Dude.  He said it.  Do his kids have an account here?  No?  It was him then. Not his kids.  

We can take this offline.  But dude.  He posted pictures of his gun with his suppressor in response to me asking him about the case being an effective improvised weapon.  In a thread about TSA and airports. Seriously. Give me a break. What the hell are you doing?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Threads often get pretty far off the original topic. You and I have certainly dragged a few off at an angle.
> 
> As for the “assassin’s kit”, wasn’t that what his kids called it?


Yep. I think it’s just funny.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Sure.  Not trying to take the thread further off topic by dwelling on the post.  Suffice to say it's the incongruence of talking about all of that in the context of a thread that's not about guns at all.  Experiences vary, but speaking for myself, when I ask whether a container would work well as an improvised weapon, and in response, the other person describes their "assassin's kit" (his words, not mine) to me in great detail, with multiple pictures of his weapon... that's not something I'm doing... that's something THEY'RE doing.  Cuckoo is a very mild way to describe language and posting behavior that is, frankly, pretty alarming.  That wasn't a post intended to inform and discuss, it was to intimidate.


I disagree completely. I don’t think it was intimidating in any way. I dont see the intent there either.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Dude.  I asked whether the case was an effective improvised weapon. He posted a detailed description of the contents of his “assigns kit” and half dozen pictures.  Doesn’t matter who called it that first.  He called it that in this thread.
> 
> I wasn’t making a big deal out of this, but your guy is out of line.   Completely.





Steve said:


> Dude.  I asked whether the case was an effective improvised weapon. He posted a detailed description of the contents of his “assigns kit” and half dozen pictures.  Doesn’t matter who called it that first.  He called it that in this thread.
> 
> I wasn’t making a big deal out of this, but your guy is out of line.   Completely.


Kinda making a big deal…


----------



## Steve (Sep 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Kinda making a big deal…


Lol. I wasn’t until Gerry tried to gaslight me.  😅


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Dude.  He said it.  Do his kids have an account here?  No?  It was him then. Not his kids.
> 
> We can take this offline.  But dude.  He posted pictures of his gun with his suppressor in response to me asking him about the case being an effective improvised weapon.  In a thread about TSA and airports. Seriously. Give me a break. What the hell are you doing?



DUDE !

Chill on the Dude please .


----------



## Steve (Sep 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Chill on the Dude please .


So assassin’s kit doesnt bother you, but dude does.  Huh. 

Rich  what do your kids call your assassin’s kit?


----------



## Buka (Sep 13, 2022)

Uh oh, the word police are coming......dude.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Dude.  He said it.  Do his kids have an account here?  No?  It was him then. Not his kids.
> 
> We can take this offline.  But dude.  He posted pictures of his gun with his suppressor in response to me asking him about the case being an effective improvised weapon.  In a thread about TSA and airports. Seriously. Give me a break. What the hell are you doing?





Buka said:


> Uh oh, the word police are coming......dude.


Dude, I wish I had a snazzy assassin kit. I imagine it has gadgets and a cool outfit like snake eyes from G.I. Joe!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Buka said:


> Uh oh, the word police are coming......dude.



 Duuuuuude


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> So assassin’s kit doesnt bother you, but dude does.  Huh.
> 
> Rich  what do your kids call your assassin’s kit?



Bothered ? 
Duuude ?!? 

As to Kids, Thank you for presuming I reproduced.  
And the Bonus kids call it my stuff and don't care. 
I call my stuff a go bag, with protein bars I rotate out, and keep water and also some things always on hand. 

One might say a kit. 
Yet I have no intention for said kit other than getting through a rough spot / long weekend.


----------



## Buka (Sep 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Duuuuuude


That made me laugh out loud.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Dude, I wish I had a snazzy assassin kit. I imagine it has gadgets and a cool outfit like snake eyes from G.I. Joe!



Dude !
Snazzy - duuuooouude ! Nye-ICE!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Buka said:


> That made me laugh out loud.


Dude, 
I got you. 
Douude - Out !!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Buka said:


> That made me laugh out loud.


Should Have I said "Sweet"?!?


----------



## Buka (Sep 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> Dude,
> I got you.
> Douude - Out !!


Reminds me of this, which not only made me laugh, but made me want to see him do an entire dictionary.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Buka said:


> Uh oh, the word police are coming......dude.


If they are smokin doobies then they are ok with dude bro.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

I imagined Jeff Spicoli whacking himself in the head with a checkered Vans slip on.


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> If they are smokin doobies then they are ok with dude bro.


The Doobie Brothers are chill, 
Yet I am allergic to THC so none for me.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> The Doobie Brothers are chill,
> Yet I am allergic to THC so none for me.


BS you ain’t takin it to the streets…


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 13, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> The Doobie Brothers are chill,
> Yet I am allergic to THC so none for me.


…


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Dude, I wish I had a snazzy assassin kit. I imagine it has gadgets and a cool outfit like snake eyes from G.I. Joe!


Yeah, there's a point where it crosses over into something I'd consider unhealthy.  Fantasizing about being a trained killer, and purchasing actual weapons... calling it an assassin's kit...  that's a far cry from GI Joe or ninja cosplay.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yeah, there's a point where it crosses over into something I'd consider unhealthy.  Fantasizing about being a trained killer, and purchasing actual weapons... calling it an assassin's kit...  that's a far cry from GI Joe or ninja cosplay.


There isn’t anything necessarily unhealthy about purchasing actual weapons. There are actual shooting sports where gear of the nature we are speaking of is necessary. Take a look at 3 gun events. I think it’s possible your bias against firearms is leading you astray. Lots of people own and train with weapons of all kinds. There are National competitions with hundreds of individuals involved. There are many folks involved that are actually trained killers(ex and active duty military combat operators). None of that is necessarily unhealthy. I remember being a cadet and thinking that Rangers and SEALs were the epitome of heroes. I believe that is even more true today. However we may feel about war or politics or guns, the folks who put it all on the line for us and for each other are some of the most selfless people amongst us. That willingness to execute the job they do is beyond what most people will ever experience. That is a reason people want to emulate these heroic figures by training and collecting gear and weapons and competing in events of this nature. True, it may be misguided under certain circumstances or in some individuals, but I don’t think that is the case here. In much the same way, some people may see a negative and unnecessary violence in a BJJ class. One guy mashing another guy into the mat and then choking him out could be seen as an abhorrent sort of activity to the untrained or uneducated eye. Try to see it through that lens, or maybe try out a shooting club. You may find that these folks aren’t really very different from a martial arts club, they are typically very welcoming to novice shooters and want to share their hobby.


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> There isn’t anything necessarily unhealthy about purchasing actual weapons. There are actual shooting sports where gear of the nature we are speaking of is necessary. Take a look at 3 gun events. I think it’s possible your bias against firearms is leading you astray. Lots of people own and train with weapons of all kinds. There are National competitions with hundreds of individuals involved. There are many folks involved that are actually trained killers(ex and active duty military combat operators). None of that is necessarily unhealthy. I remember being a cadet and thinking that Rangers and SEALs were the epitome of heroes. I believe that is even more true today. However we may feel about war or politics or guns, the folks who put it all on the line for us and for each other are some of the most selfless people amongst us. That willingness to execute the job they do is beyond what most people will ever experience. That is a reason people want to emulate these heroic figures by training and collecting gear and weapons and competing in events of this nature. True, it may be misguided under certain circumstances or in some individuals, but I don’t think that is the case here. In much the same way, some people may see a negative and unnecessary violence in a BJJ class. One guy mashing another guy into the mat and then choking him out could be seen as an abhorrent sort of activity to the untrained or uneducated eye. Try to see it through that lens, or maybe try out a shooting club. You may find that these folks aren’t really very different from a martial arts club, they are typically very welcoming to novice shooters and want to share their hobby.


It’s always possible, though I’m not anti-gun, any more than I'm anti-alcohol because I think we need to have limits on who can drink it or buy it.  Or anti-car because I think we need to have limits on who can operate them.  But you seem to want to chat about this.  So, let's chat.  

I see guns as a tool, as a knife is a tool.   And when guys start naming their swords, using language that references harm to other people (e.g., assassin), and pretending to be real life ninja with live blades, that’s concerning to me.  You said it can be healthy.  I don't see any way that is healthy.  

In the same way, guys engage in fantasy like the above with guns, it's similarly concerning to me.  

So, all that to say, you and some others around here have a clear pro-gun bias.  The answer to any question about guns is yes.  I think it's more likely that your pro-gun bias is leading you astray.  It clouds discussions that intersect with guns because on a spectrum, you and others are so far to one side, anything short of complete agreement is characterized as anti-gun.  That, my friend, is also not healthy.  The default site position on guns is that we can only talk about them positively.  Anything else is political.  That's not too good.

And when someone, in response to a question about a case, posts pictures of the case, the gun, his suppressor, and in that same post refers to it as his assassin's kit, we're in some pretty dangerous territory.  I think if you weren't so biased, you could see it.


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## Darren (Sep 14, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> When I began traveling internationally, I struggled to find a weapon that I could carry anywhere. I came up with many nasty options.
> 
> Including a trick I learned about when I was an undercover, investigating motorcycle gangs. The weapon of choice with many motorcycle gangs being a handkerchief slid through a padlock. Carried in the back pocket with the tails of the handkerchief hanging out of the pocket. Obviously you could quickly grab the tails and pull out a pretty nasty weapon!
> 
> ...


Have this straw my sister got me(during Covid) it’s housed in a metal screw on top thing with built in can opener there’s 2 things it’s  good for, thought up to more things it can be used for, 1.it is attached to my keys can use it as strikes to the eyes(which should not be done!! Unless!! 2.Can be held in the hand for strikes to the joints and soft targets, then again UNLESS!!!


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> It’s always possible, though I’m not anti-gun, any more than I'm anti-alcohol because I think we need to have limits on who can drink it or buy it.  Or anti-car because I think we need to have limits on who can operate them.  But you seem to want to chat about this.  So, let's chat.
> 
> I see guns as a tool, as a knife is a tool.   And when guys start naming their swords, using language that references harm to other people (e.g., assassin), and pretending to be real life ninja with live blades, that’s concerning to me.  You said it can be healthy.  I don't see any way that is healthy.
> 
> ...


Yep, I have a lot of guns, but I am not blindly progun either. people have to follow logic, not just follow. As much I am for handgun, I am not for "assault" riffles. To me, it's the safety. Those bullets can go through houses and kill someone totally unvolved. For self defense and home defense, I am for shotgun and handgun with JHP rounds only to minimize penetrations. It's for innocent people.

As many guns I own, I don't own any assault riffle. Very tempted to buy one just for show, but not yet.

I kept hearing people joke about "blowing people away". I don't think it's funny at all. I bet if they really blow a person away, their conscience might be haunted for the rest of their lives and there is no taking back even they might be cleared from all wrong doing by the law.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> It’s always possible, though I’m not anti-gun, any more than I'm anti-alcohol because I think we need to have limits on who can drink it or buy it.  Or anti-car because I think we need to have limits on who can operate them.  But you seem to want to chat about this.  So, let's chat.
> 
> I see guns as a tool, as a knife is a tool.   And when guys start naming their swords, using language that references harm to other people (e.g., assassin), and pretending to be real life ninja with live blades, that’s concerning to me.  You said it can be healthy.  I don't see any way that is healthy.
> 
> ...


Fair points. However, you misquoted me. I did not say it was healthy. I said it wasn’t necessarily unhealthy. I am not so far to one side, though I agree I do have a pro gun bias. I also recognize a need for some regulation. I do feel you have valid feelings that inform your opinion on the subject. I hope you can see that I’m willing to discuss in a logical way that can help bridge the gap in opinions here. We cannot have meaningful discussion that leads to improvement if we can’t find common ground to start the conversation. That is compromise, that is what’s missing in these types of discussion most often. I hear you, I believe you believe your reasons for your opinion. I can respect that.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yep, I have a lot of guns, but I am not blindly progun either. people have to follow logic, not just follow. As much I am for handgun, I am not for "assault" riffles. To me, it's the safety. Those bullets can go through houses and kill someone totally unvolved. For self defense and home defense, I am for shotgun and handgun with JHP rounds only to minimize penetrations. It's for innocent people.
> 
> As many guns I own, I don't own any assault riffle. Very tempted to buy one just for show, but not yet.
> 
> I kept hearing people joke about "blowing people away". I don't think it's funny at all. I bet if they really blow a person away, their conscience might be haunted for the rest of their lives and there is no taking back even they might be cleared from all wrong doing by the law.


12 gauge Buckshot goes through 2 interior house walls just fine.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yep, I have a lot of guns, but I am not blindly progun either. people have to follow logic, not just follow. As much I am for handgun, I am not for "assault" riffles. To me, it's the safety. Those bullets can go through houses and kill someone totally unvolved. For self defense and home defense, I am for shotgun and handgun with JHP rounds only to minimize penetrations. It's for innocent people.
> 
> As many guns I own, I don't own any assault riffle. Very tempted to buy one just for show, but not yet.
> 
> I kept hearing people joke about "blowing people away". I don't think it's funny at all. I bet if they really blow a person away, their conscience might be haunted for the rest of their lives and there is no taking back even they might be cleared from all wrong doing by the law.


Remember when JHP was forbidden in San Fran?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> 12 gauge Buckshot goes through 2 interior house walls just fine.


Don't use that!!! I use regular 20 gauge. 12 gauge is way over kill.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Remember when JHP was forbidden in San Fran?


I am not in SF, I don't carry gun out anyway. You sure?


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 14, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am not in SF, I don't carry gun out anyway. You sure?


Yeah it was banned in SF for a while. Im sure. Look it up.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yeah it was banned in SF for a while. Im sure. Look it up.


Doesn't make sense, it's the safest round. There goes to show they don't know anything.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Yeah it was banned in SF for a while. Im sure. Look it up.


That's why I said what I said about not liking assault weapon, BUT when come to voting, I WILL vote against any gun ban. I just don't buy them. SF deserve all the chaos right now. I am so glad I moved out of SF since 86. I don't go to SF if I can help it.

Not to change the subject, if you ever drive in SF, it will get you mad. In Sunset area, they block out so many streets in the name of making it saver for people to walk and jock. You try to drive it that area, it's a nightmare. This really hurt the small business.

If you want to drive from Sunset Area to Richman Area across Golden Gate Park, good luck, they block off most of the roads during the day to make you go around and around to discourage you to drive.

On Great Highway close to the beach on 48th Ave, they block of Great Highway. Do you know how they make the parking spot to discourage people driving and part next to the beach? They make the parking at 45deg..................*NOT the kind that you just drive in. It's 45 deg THE OTHER WAY. That you have to drive pass it, then BACK THE CAR into the space.* How many people is comfortable backing up like this? Also you block the traffic when you try to park.

Of cause, the homeless and crime problem..........................

Don't get me started!!!! If not for family, I would move to Rock Rock close to Austin in Tx. Ha ha, I would be close to Kung Fu Wang.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Lol! No gadgets? Ninja suits etc?


Nope. That would be silly.


Alan0354 said:


> Stop nitpicking words just to argue, you know what I mean.


No, I don't. I know what you write. If what you write isn't what you mean, I can hardly be expected to read your mind.



Steve said:


> Dude.  He said it.


I repeated it. That's not the same. Not that that matters to you.


Steve said:


> Do his kids have an account here?


A couple do, yes. Between us, we have 10 kids and 17 grandkids. All of whom have been given at least basic training, and those interested more. 


Steve said:


> We can take this offline.  But dude.  He posted pictures of his gun with his suppressor in response to me asking him about the case being an effective improvised weapon.  In a thread about TSA and airports. Seriously. Give me a break. What the hell are you doing?


The size and content of the case affect it's effectiveness as an improvised weapon. I don't think I've ever met anyone so likely to get upset about your question being answered.


Alan0354 said:


> Yep, I have a lot of guns, but I am not blindly progun either. people have to follow logic, not just follow. As much I am for handgun, I am not for "assault" riffles. To me, it's the safety. Those bullets can go through houses and kill someone totally unvolved.


So can a shotgun. So can handgun ammo, especially hardball. But *ANY* firearm/ammo combination that can be considered effective for personal or home defense is capable of penetrating drywall easily.


Alan0354 said:


> For self defense and home defense, I am for shotgun and handgun with JHP rounds only to minimize penetrations.


The ammo with the least worry about shoot-through is things like the MagSafe or Glazer Safety Slug. If that's a concern, you should look into those rounds. I have some concern about their effectiveness, especially during cold seasons, but they do have less shoot through potential.


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2022)

Steve said:


> It’s always possible, though I’m not anti-gun, any more than I'm anti-alcohol because I think we need to have limits on who can drink it or buy it.  Or anti-car because I think we need to have limits on who can operate them.  But you seem to want to chat about this.  So, let's chat.
> 
> I see guns as a tool, as a knife is a tool.   And when guys start naming their swords, using language that references harm to other people (e.g., assassin), and pretending to be real life ninja with live blades, that’s concerning to me.  You said it can be healthy.  I don't see any way that is healthy.
> 
> ...


No argument from me on this post, but as for naming things, I've named just about every car I've ever owned, all in fun - at least fun for me.

What do you think of all the gun battle shooting games so many people play? I've watched guys I worked with go to those game places (years ago) and all engage in team gun battles against each other and against enemies provided by the game.

They were all having fun, but were absolutely manic in their enthusiasm. I found it very odd.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 14, 2022)

Dirty Dog said:


> The ammo with the least worry about shoot-through is things like the MagSafe or Glazer Safety Slug. If that's a concern, you should look into those rounds. I have some concern about their effectiveness, especially during cold seasons, but they do have less shoot through potential.


I have a few Glazer in 38sp, are they still around? Problem is for revolver, it's ok, I don't have to test it. But for semi auto, It's really EXPENSIVE to proof it is reliable for the gun!!! Look 200 rounds!!!

I just look at MagSafe, the profile of the nose is not too bad, it should not have problem like the CCI Blazer JHP 45. That one is like an ashtray.


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2022)

Buka said:


> No argument from me on this post, but as for naming things, I've named just about every car I've ever owned, all in fun - at least fun for me.
> 
> What do you think of all the gun battle shooting games so many people play? I've watched guys I worked with go to those game places (years ago) and all engage in team gun battles against each other and against enemies provided by the game.
> 
> They were all having fun, but were absolutely manic in their enthusiasm. I found it very odd.


If someone starts a thread on it, I’ll tell you. 😀


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 14, 2022)

Buka said:


> No argument from me on this post, but as for naming things, I've named just about every car I've ever owned, all in fun - at least fun for me.
> 
> What do you think of all the gun battle shooting games so many people play? I've watched guys I worked with go to those game places (years ago) and all engage in team gun battles against each other and against enemies provided by the game.
> 
> They were all having fun, but were absolutely manic in their enthusiasm. I found it very odd.




I played Paintball in the early 90's in a an old manufacturing building in Downtown Detroit. 

The first warning / announcement was "Do not point the guns outside the building / windows / break glass or anything like that, as those around the buildings are just as likely to fire back with real ammo. "


That being said, we were a few games into the day. 
I was out of ammo and went back to get more. 
I ran into a guy baby sitting the area and he caught me point blank. 
One of the rules was point blank give them a chance to surrender. 
I had hands up and said he got me. He literally whined "I haven't shot anyone all day. It is not fair."
He then shot me point blank. I moved and it hit me in the collar bone. No padding. 
I did a parry and gun disarm and came back with his gun and shot him point blank in the face. 

The Judge was on the ground laughing. 
His first comment. Sweet Disarm and way to bring it back on line. 
I'll allow the point blank as an education. 
Go get your ammo. 

The other guy started belly aching about being shot and how unfair it was. 
The Judge said , either he was out for the rest of the day for shooting me point blank or to be out for five minutes to give me time to get ammo and move along. 

...

In the afternoon we had a "professional" join us. He was almost always shot by friendly fire. 
His gear was just so much "MORE" than the rented gear . 
He was as you stated - over the top - and wanting to play war. 

To me it was a game and a little fun, knowing it was a game and not real.


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## Buka (Sep 14, 2022)

Rich Parsons said:


> I played Paintball in the early 90's in a an old manufacturing building in Downtown Detroit.
> 
> The first warning / announcement was "Do not point the guns outside the building / windows / break glass or anything like that, as those around the buildings are just as likely to fire back with real ammo. "
> 
> ...


I played back in the nineties, too, in an old shoe factory outside Boston. It was a lot of fun.

There were two groups and things got a very testy, it might have gotten ugly, really ugly. But the guys who were, I guess referees you could call them, stopped that right quick.

They were competitive paint ballers in national tournaments, and the paintball guns they had - made ours look like pea shooters. We got two warnings - and then those boys lit us up big time. Man, that hurt. Put a quick stop to what was happening, though. Right quick, too. Everyone was like little lambs after they got through with us.

Played outside once, too. I much preferred the indoor course, way more fun.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 14, 2022)

Buka said:


> I played back in the nineties, too, in an old shoe factory outside Boston. It was a lot of fun.
> 
> There were two groups and things got a very testy, it might have gotten ugly, really ugly. But the guys who were, I guess referees you could call them, stopped that right quick.
> 
> ...


We played when the kids were kids. Went out to a place nearby that people used for dirt bike riding. Lots of hills and ditches and whatnot. It was a lot of fun. Never really used the commercial places.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 15, 2022)

wab25 said:


> So why do you discount most of his techniques? I did not know that was your guy, when I found the video that I did. However, you already deemed most of what he does as useless. You found one technique he does, that you like.... but you discount his one handed strikes, his hanbo style strikes, his cane style strikes.... everything he does, with the exception of the one you like. Since you already mastered that.... you would have no reason to train there... Especially when they worked on the one handed stuff or the hanbo style stuff or.... Don't tell me you would go train with him, while at the same time telling me how useless you deem most of his techniques.
> 
> 
> A cane could be plenty useful in a plane... if you learn to use it as something other than a katana. But, you would have to learn the one hand stuff and the two thumbs in stuff.
> ...


I have been practice more on striking with both thumbs facing inward like the video your posted(which I cannot find you post). Here is the SAME video you posted, I found it on youtube:





I know you really don't take me serious and might not even read what I wrote. But I just feel like reponding as you accused me that I refused to listen while I already showed you I did that already in the video. I can tell you, it is very hard to hit hard with both thumbs facing inwards. Yes, it is for close distance, but there's just no power. Even in the video, the guy even demo and said it cannot hit that hard at 8:45. He even agree with me.

Like I said I showed in my video I practice this similar move 9 months ago already. Actually the advantage of using a crook cane is I can hit harder with the crook end as shown in my video. I actually do it like punching using the crook end to stick it into the bag. That can hit quite hard. NOT WITH A STRAIGHT STICK like in the video. You ever try that before you posted the video?

Also, have you ever try swinging the stick reverse hand like in the video starting at 3:45? That was made famous by the movie series in the 60s by a blind samurai holding the sword that way. You try hitting like that. It might be good for sword as you cut and slice with it. If you ever try with a blunt stick, it's NOT very useful and the movement is limited. I tried that after I watched that just for the hell of it. It DIDN'T work for stick or cane. Might look good in demo, it just doesn't work.

Now, the thrusting straight in with the tip of the stick does have power, that you can see in my video that I used that already. One thing the video gave me a new idea. If it happens to fight in open area, sometimes, I can let go my left hand and swing with the right hand using the body to swing. One hand gets a longer reach and with wide swing, it can hit hard. Just have to watch out stick flying off hand if misses.

Notice, even the guy was NOT very good hitting the mattress with reverse hand at 8:30. He only used the arm, no body rotation to add to the force. I spent more time practice striking reverse hand motion with two hands. It is so so much harder to swing good reverse vs the normal forward motion swinging from right to left. That's some what similar to the idea of switch hitter in baseball. I know it's a lot harder, so I put 75% of my practice hitting from left to right to practice the body movement. I want to be able to hit hard from both sides. This is the kind of thing I concentrate in practice.

I might not go to any class, but I do think, watch and try to see whether it is useful before I discard anything. I only reject AFTER I try it. I find too many style just concentrate on movement that looks nice rather effective. Hanbo reminds me a little of Irish stick fight that more trying to be different than effective. Like Irish stick bounce off the elbow to pull back the stick after striking, they switch hands also. To me, they are just too fancy than practical. If I do single hand stick, Escrima is about the only one that is practical and more effective in my opinion. I did started with that for like 3 or 4 months as shown in the video. I dropped that after I saw the video competition that two guys wacked each other stupid, they were still standing after the fight. Be that they wore some protection, but for cry out loud, there's no stopping power with a light weight rattan stick!!!! One need a heavier stick to do damage. So I went to two handed since. Follow the logic and science, this is NOT rocket science. One doesn't have to be an expert to see from videos and poke holes on their technique.


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