# Ro Hai



## TallAdam85 (Nov 28, 2005)

just wondering do alot of schools use this for there form to go for 2nd dan cause I am learning this form for 2nd dan it is a decent form just kinda weird movements


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## JAMJTX (Nov 28, 2005)

It would depend on tha style you are training in.
Tang Soo Do, like Tae Kwon Do, originally used the Shotokan Kata.  Many of the older schools still do.  So it is not uncommon to see this kata in the requirements.  It was required for 2nd Dan in my original Tae Kwon Do class.  

I liked this kata a lot.  If the movements seem weird, it is because you have not yet been shown the bunkai.  Make sure your teacher shows you the bunkai.  If he does not know it, or shows you something that still does not make sense perhaps you can find a teacher of a Japanese style that can show you.


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## TallAdam85 (Nov 29, 2005)

i just find it weird cause alot of moves that we rarely ever use in tsd and it is a tsd form like the crain blocks


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2005)

I learned chinto for 2nd dan and I am learning rohai soon for 3rd.  I can see why people switch the two forms.  Chinto is very complex with lots of subtle moves.  I've heard rohai is easier.

Those crane blocks are not blocks (all of the time anyway).  They are grabs that turn into locks and breaks.


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## JAMJTX (Nov 29, 2005)

UPNORTH is correct in what he said about the "blocks".  Like I said, ask your teacher to show you the bunkai and they will not seem weird.

TSD, like TKD, has changed a lot since thier creation.  TKD was originally all Japanese forms - including Rohai (Crane on a Rock) - until he started creating new forms based on the Japanese kata.  Eventually the Palgwe forms came to be, which were also based on the basic Japanese kata and then the WTF created all new "patterns" based on not much at all.

I don't follow TSD much.  Perhaps they changed the focus of the training but just never created new forms so they still practice the old Japanese Kata with no explainations.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I don't follow TSD much. Perhaps they changed the focus of the training but just never created new forms so they still practice the old Japanese Kata with no explainations.


 
Many of us have taken the old Japanese kata...aka old Okinawan kata and are attempting to learn backward.  Hopefully, then we can teach our students forward correctly...


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## rmclain (Nov 29, 2005)

In Chayon-Ryu, Ro Hai (No Hai) is a 1st Dan requirement (1st Dan going for 2nd Dan).  Chinto (Ahm Hak) is a 2nd Dan going for 3rd Dan requirement.

R. McLain


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## JAMJTX (Nov 29, 2005)

This is not at all surprising.
For those who may not know, the founder of Chayon-Ryu (Kim Soo) is also the creator of the Palgwe forms that were taught as part of Tae Kwon Do.
We practiced those with the original Japanese/Okinawan black belt level kata.
I recall Bassai, Rohai,  and Jion and possibly Empi.


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## rmclain (Nov 29, 2005)

Hi JAMJTX,

Grandmaster Kim Soo did not create the Palgue forms.  He was one of the Masters in attendance for the first clinics by the Korean Taekwondo Association in Korea to introduce the Palgue forms for grade advancement in the Gup ranks.  He returned to America following the clinics and was the first to publish books on those forms.  The first book, "Palgue 1-2-3 of Taekwondo Hyung," was published in 1973.  Two other books completing the remaining 5 forms, for a total of 8, were published in the following years.

Grandmaster Kim still includes those in the Chayon-Ryu curriculum, along with the Okinawan and Chinese forms.

R. McLain


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## JAMJTX (Nov 29, 2005)

I have some of his books.  I had alsways believed, and was told by someone, that he was the creator.  Many people believe that.

I'll have to dig those books out again and make sure I didn't mis-read something.

Thanks.


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## rmclain (Nov 29, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I have some of his books. I had alsways believed, and was told by someone, that he was the creator. Many people believe that.
> 
> I'll have to dig those books out again and make sure I didn't mis-read something.
> 
> Thanks.


 
Grandmaster Kim Soo is my direct teacher.  I cannot remember him ever claiming creation of those forms.  He's the one that told me about the clinics in Korea to introduce those forms.  You could always e-mail him or call to check.  His e-mail is kimsoo@ev1.net  School phone number: (713) 681-9261

While you are e-mailing or calling, you should ask him some questions about the old days and the forms being taught.  He's very friendly and welcomes questions. 

R. McLain


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## JAMJTX (Nov 29, 2005)

I have heard nothing but good things about Master Soo.  I lived and trained in Houston for a few years but sadly never got over to meet him.  A friend of mine visisted the school there - after having trained with a friend of his in Chicago.  Master Soo and my friend's teacher trained were students together in Korea.  This friend of mine also believed that Master Soo created the Palgwe forms.

I will write to Master Soo.  Not that I don't believe you, I just think it would be interesting to chat with him.  Thank you.


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## rmclain (Nov 30, 2005)

JAMJTX said:
			
		

> I have heard nothing but good things about Master Soo. I lived and trained in Houston for a few years but sadly never got over to meet him. A friend of mine visisted the school there - after having trained with a friend of his in Chicago. Master Soo and my friend's teacher trained were students together in Korea. This friend of mine also believed that Master Soo created the Palgwe forms.
> 
> I will write to Master Soo. Not that I don't believe you, I just think it would be interesting to chat with him. Thank you.


 
Great!  I'm sure you will enjoy speaking with Grandmaster Kim as he will enjoy your phone call.  He's very open about his experiences in martial arts over the years.

I think your friend must have trained with Master Kim Il Joo in Chicago.  Below is a link to a photo taken in 1993 of Grandmaster Kim Soo, Grandmaster Ki Whang Kim, Master Yemoh Ahn and Master Kim Il Joo.  I remember myself and my father being introduced to them at this event.  My father was one of Grandmaster Kim Soo's first students in America (1968).  http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-first30/gmks-group.html

I was in Houston training with Grandmaster Kim Soo on October 29 - I'm the third on the right from Grandmaster Kim Soo (in red) http://www.kimsookarate.com/gallery-present/05_tuksuNOV/tuksuNov.htm  I usually spend a day each month training and visiting with him.  He's headed on a trip to Korea soon - perhaps he is there now.  Apparently, he found the family of Master Byung In Yoon (he disappeared during the Korean War).  Byung In Yoon is a important part of our martial arts family tree - he brought both Chuan-fa and karate(from Kanken Toyama) to Korea following WWII and founded what became the Chang Moo Kwan.

This early kwan taught Chuan-fa forms, but also taught karate forms such as Pyung Ahn, Ro Hai, Chulki, Ahm Hak, etc.

R. McLain


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## Makalakumu (Jan 11, 2006)

I just learned rohai a few weeks ago.  Are there any people out there who also practice this kata?  Any advice?


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## mtabone (Jan 12, 2006)

I love Ro Hai. I have won many grandchampionships with this form when I was a second dan. Even beat a bunch of 3rd dan [SIZE=-1]Kong Sang Kun. 

I was already fimiliar with many of the moves in this form, because of the moves from the Chil Sung Hyungs; of which at the time I only knew four. (so to an earilier poster, Tang Soo Do does have indigounous forms.) 

I believe understanding the correct use of *Neh Gung*, and *Weh Gung* energy at the right time in the hyung helped me with this form. 

[/SIZE] *Neh    Gung - *Internal    power or control in exercise
*Weh    Gung - *External    power or control in exercise

 Weh Gung is characterised by fire energy , and Neh Gung water energy. 

Tang Soo!!!

Michael Tabone


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## Muwubu16858 (Jan 19, 2007)

I just wanted to point out that there are actually 3 Rohai hyung, cho dan, ee dan and sam dan. I have learned the three of them, and actually have a rare book that comes from korea called the Kong Soo Do Kyo Bon, which has many of the 39 original forms mentioned in the hyung chapter of Hwang Kee's Soo Bahk Do Dae Kahm, many of which are no longer in use today...


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jan 24, 2007)

I believe I'll learn that once I'm third dan, similar to upnorthkyosa...not sure when, exactly, though, since I learn a new form when my instructo tells me I'm going to learn a new form. So far I know up to Jin To, but I've seen sam dan's using that form. Hey, when it comes up, it comes up, eh?

btw, upnorthkyosa: are you really a kyo sa nim? Didn't think that was possible at 2nd dan.


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## tsdmgk1336 (Jan 25, 2007)

I'm currently learning the Hyung and i like it so far.


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## Makalakumu (Jan 25, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> I believe I'll learn that once I'm third dan, similar to upnorthkyosa...not sure when, exactly, though, since I learn a new form when my instructo tells me I'm going to learn a new form. So far I know up to Jin To, but I've seen sam dan's using that form. Hey, when it comes up, it comes up, eh?
> 
> btw, upnorthkyosa: are you really a kyo sa nim? Didn't think that was possible at 2nd dan.


 
In our organization, 2nd dan is the first rank in which you can teach on your own.  I'll be testing for 3rd in a couple of months...


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## Muwubu16858 (Feb 3, 2007)

I'm wondering here, what's up with Rohai and Kong Sang Goon being taught at such a low Dan level? My teacher learned with Hwang Kee at the Moo Duk Kwan HQ's and with GM Oh Sae Joon, and this was the hyung order as he learned them:

White Belt: Kicho Hyung 1,2 & 3 Bu
Green Belt: San Tjin, Pyung Ahn Cho, 2 & 3 Dan
Red Belt: Pyung Ahn 4 & 5 Dan, Bbachae (Bassai) Dae & So
Cho Dan: Jun Jang, Ne Bo Jin (Naihanji) Cho Dan
Ee Dan: Ne Bo Jin Ee Dan
Sam Dan: Ne Bo Jin Sam Dan, Jin De (Ship Soo), Ssi San (Ship Sam)
Sa Dan: Jindo
Oh Dan: Oh Ship Sa Bo, Wang Shu, So Rim Jang Kwon, Kong Sang Goon-
            Dae & So, So Jin
Yuk Dan: Rohai*, Rohai Cho, 2 & 3 Dan, Ssi Bbai (Ship Pal), Bae Rin Bba,
             Ji On
Chil Dan: Ee Ship Sa, Woon Soo, Ssan Ssi Bbai (Sam Ship Pal), Sei Shan
Pal Dan: Sa Hoo Ee Ah, Goo Reung Hoo Ah, Tae Geuk Kwan

*This is the Rohai commonly used in Korean Tang Soo Do, and is based on the Matsumura Rohai.


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