# Tung's Fast Form?????



## East Winds (Feb 6, 2008)

Here's our friend Erle Montaigue doing some Tung Fast form. Or is he?
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFw4cmk1EmA&feature=related

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2008)

Well what he is doing has similarities to the first 2 postures of Tung Ying Jie's fast form but what he is doing, if that is suppose to be the fast form from Tung, is very bad. 

There is no jump like he is doing in the beginning he has to many steps and his hand position is wrong his movement into single whip is wrong (there is no flailing crazy monkey jump or head movement) and his angle when he is finished is wrong as well. 

Other than that is is just fine 

Now if he is doing the other fast form from Tung Ying Jie that Tung shigong called the Yang fast form then it is WAY beyond bad and not even close.


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## grydth (Feb 6, 2008)

For we non-original curmudgeons....... who is this guy?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2008)

Erle Montaigue claims to have learned the original Yang Taijiquan of Yang Luchan and has on multiple occasions bashed Yang Luchan's Grandson Yang Chengfu for destroying Yang style. 

His claim to Luchan is doubtful and his Tung Ying Jie fast form is horrible. 

Interestingly enough you can get free videos on YouTube of Erle teaching the Yang Long form of Yang Chengfu and Tung Ying Jie was a long time student of Yang Chengfu. 

He also teaches Bagua but I am not sure of what style or how good he is at it.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 6, 2008)

Erle is an Australian chap from Sydney, probably our most famous martial artist if you don't count boxers.  Unfortunately his reputation is not what it could be, mainly due to his obsession with Dim Mak I think, though money might also be an issue.

I found an interesting taiji family tree (similar to one Xue found for me about bagua).  In it Erle is listed as a student of Chang Yiu Chun who was a student of Yang Shao Hou, a student of Yang Jiang Hou.  On his website he also claims to have done some training with Fu Zhongwen and Yang Sau-chung, the son of Yang Cheng-fu.  I don't have a clue as to where he learnt Tung's forms.

As far as his bagua is concerned, it appears to be Gao style.  His teacher being Ho Ho Choi, a student of Gao Yi Sheng, who was a student of Cheng Ting Hua.

I have seen him perform both taiji and bagua first hand at a seminar I attended (I didn't have to pay so I went).  I found all his forms to be afflicted with short, often jerky, movements which are supposedly demonstrative of fa jin and, of course, Dim Mak.  

I don't really want to bash Erle as he seems to be a nice enough guy, its just that some of his stuff is, well strange.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 6, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> I found an interesting taiji family tree (similar to one Xue found for me about bagua). In it Erle is listed as a student of Chang Yiu Chun who was a student of Yang Shao Hou, a student of Yang Jiang Hou.


 
I believe, regardless of Erle's lineage claim, Yang Shaohou learned from his Uncle Yang Banhou not his father Yang Jainhou. If his lineage claim is true then he did not learn the Yang style of Luchan. Jainhou changed is a bit before he taught it to his youngest son Yang Chengfu who then changed it a bit more. However I do believe Jainhou also taught his oldest son Shaohou a bit but I think Shaohou was Banhou's student not Jainhou. The style of Taiji and the teaching style of Shaohou were, from what I can find, much more like Banhou.

Chang Yiu Chun? I will have to look into this

EDIT

More Erle from Shen Wu and now I'm done wasting tmie on Erle


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## bigfootsquatch (Feb 6, 2008)

the thing with Erle is that he gets too carried away with trying to validate his martial arts instead of just teaching what he has to offer. some of his stuff is kinda wild, and so is he....just check out those older videos with that hair of his! he's a pretty nice guy until you question anything he does, check out horror stories for anyone interested, i have/had a nice long thread there.


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 7, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe, regardless of Erle's lineage claim, Yang Shaohou learned from his Uncle Yang Banhou not his father Yang Jainhou. If his lineage claim is true then he did not learn the Yang style of Luchan. Jainhou changed is a bit before he taught it to his youngest son Yang Chengfu who then changed it a bit more. However I do believe Jainhou also taught his oldest son Shaohou a bit but I think Shaohou was Banhou's student not Jainhou. The style of Taiji and the teaching style of Shaohou were, from what I can find, much more like Banhou.


 
Its interesting that you mention Shaohou as a student of his uncle.  The Yang family tree I found appears to list him in two places, under slightly different names - Shaohou under Jainhou and Shouhou under Banhou.  No dates attached so it just an assumption that they are the same person.

Either way I can see how Erle could claim to have learnt Luchan's taiji.  afterall he learned from someone who learned someone who learned from the man himself.  If you leave out the fact that it changed somewhat with each generation it a pretty clean lineage path.


And, as you say, that's enough about Erle.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> Its interesting that you mention Shaohou as a student of his uncle. The Yang family tree I found appears to list him in two places, under slightly different names - Shaohou under Jainhou and Shouhou under Banhou. No dates attached so it just an assumption that they are the same person.
> 
> Either way I can see how Erle could claim to have learnt Luchan's taiji. afterall he learned from someone who learned someone who learned from the man himself. If you leave out the fact that it changed somewhat with each generation it a pretty clean lineage path.
> 
> ...


 
It is the same guy it is just spelled wrong and if you go to the Yang Family page 
 
They do not list him under Banhou at all but under his father Jainhou even though he learned most of his Taiji from his Uncle not his father. But then the Yang family site sometime omits things for various reasons. 

Until very recently they did not list any of Shaohou's family after his son claiming there were none after that but yet my sifu who trained Taiji in Hong Kong and his teacher Tung Shigong knew that Shaohou's family was alive and well and living in Hong Kong and they are still there today. 

Yang Politics can get nasty these days they have yet to acknowledge the death of Yang Zhen Guo on their site as well.

And I have learned the Yang Taiji of Luchan as well

Yang Luchan > Yang Jainhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Jie > My sifu

But I got a Dash of Hao style too form Tung Shigong


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## Steel Tiger (Feb 7, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Chang Yiu Chun? I will have to look into this


 
The suggestion of the tree I have would indicate that Chang Yiu Chun  (1899 - 1987) was of the same generation as Yang Zhen Sheng (1878 - 1939).  The dates make me think that perhaps the lineage is wrong and Chang learned from Zhen Sheng rather than Shaohou.  Though the Yang family page suggests that Shaohou was only 16 when Zhen Sheng was born.  All very interesting.





Xue Sheng said:


> And I have learned the Yang Taiji of Luchan as well
> 
> Yang Luchan > Yang Jainhou > Yang Chengfu > Tung Ying Jie > My sifu
> 
> But I got a Dash of Hao style too form Tung Shigong


 
See.  Now, there you go.  And you're only one step further removed than Erle.  
Of course, if you do it this way all Yang stylists can claim to know Luchan's taiji.


I have a question though.  Where would Erle have learned Tung's fast form?  Are there a lot of practitioners around.  Would it have been from a video?  I am just curious because Tung Ying Jie passed away in 1961 and I am wondering what the legacy is and how strong.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2008)

Steel Tiger said:


> I have a question though. Where would Erle have learned Tung's fast form? Are there a lot of practitioners around. Would it have been from a video? I am just curious because Tung Ying Jie passed away in 1961 and I am wondering what the legacy is and how strong.


 
From the looks of it he didn't learn it at all. It is doubtful that he learned it from Tung Hu Ling (Tung Ying Jie's oldest son) or any of the Tung family for that matter, certainly not from Tung Hu Ling's oldest son Tung Kai Ying, he is too much of a traditionalist like his father and Grandfather. 

There is, I believe, an old video of Tung Hu Ling doing the fast form but I am not 100% sure about that. There is a video of Tung Ying Jie's Great Grandson Alex Dong doing the form but that is fairly recent. If I have to guess I would have to say he learned it from someone that learned it by looking through the fence or he learned it by looking through the fence


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## East Winds (Feb 8, 2008)

Xue Sheng,

Just a minor correction to a slip of your finger on a previous post. It was Yang Zhen Ji (The second son) who died and has not been acknowledged. Yang Zhen Guo  (the fourth son) is alive and well and still kicking.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2008)

East Winds said:


> Xue Sheng,
> 
> Just a minor correction to a slip of your finger on a previous post. It was Yang Zhen Ji (The second son) who died and has not been acknowledged. Yang Zhen Guo (the fourth son) is alive and well and still kicking.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
OOPS, sorry about that, you are correct and I made a mistake. However this could explain why they have not acknowledged his death... he's not dead yet. 

So I went to the Yang site again to make sure and.....They have yet to acknowledge the death of Yang Zhen Ji.


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