# Dissapointed in Wing Chun



## DeLamar.J (Jul 14, 2004)

I have went around to a few wing chun schools, and was not very happy about what I found. First off I am a decent boxer, I have trained in go ju off and on since I was 10 and just recently made black belt, I can hold my own in amature boxing matches- Just to give you some back round about me and what my level of skill is. So I go into a wing chun school to spar, expecting to have my force used against me and end up getting popped in the face 10 times before I knew what hit me. That wasnt the case. I was whoppin most everyone, and the guys who were decent fighters werent really that special, they could have probly beat me but not without alot of bumps and cuts from me first. I was just expecting much more, mayby I keep running into mc dojos or something. I have read so many articles about yip man and how no one ever seen him not completely controlling his opponent, even playing with them and putting them is akward positions for comedy. Bruce lee and his training partners would say they respected yip so much because he would never hurt any of his students, and they all new they did not have the skill to hurt him. I have seen videos of bruce lee doing wing chun and it looked very impressive, jakie chan working the wing chun wooded dummie in rumble in the bronx was great! I dont doubt the system at all, I have read so much about it and it seems like it could possibly be the best fighting system ever IMO if the techniques were properly mastered. Are there no masters left in the world? I was expecting to get my butt handed to me but I get more compitition from kickboxers and grapplers. Where are all the great kung fu masters, I know there out there.


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 15, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I have went around to a few wing chun schools, and was not very happy about what I found. First off I am a decent boxer, I have trained in go ju off and on since I was 10 and just recently made black belt, I can hold my own in amature boxing matches- Just to give you some back round about me and what my level of skill is. So I go into a wing chun school to spar, expecting to have my force used against me and end up getting popped in the face 10 times before I knew what hit me. That wasnt the case. I was whoppin most everyone, and the guys who were decent fighters werent really that special, they could have probly beat me but not without alot of bumps and cuts from me first. I was just expecting much more, mayby I keep running into mc dojos or something. I have read so many articles about yip man and how no one ever seen him not completely controlling his opponent, even playing with them and putting them is akward positions for comedy. Bruce lee and his training partners would say they respected yip so much because he would never hurt any of his students, and they all new they did not have the skill to hurt him. I have seen videos of bruce lee doing wing chun and it looked very impressive, jakie chan working the wing chun wooded dummie in rumble in the bronx was great! I dont doubt the system at all, I have read so much about it and it seems like it could possibly be the best fighting system ever IMO if the techniques were properly mastered. Are there no masters left in the world? I was expecting to get my butt handed to me but I get more compitition from kickboxers and grapplers. Where are all the great kung fu masters, I know there out there.


DeLamar.J,

What i'm about to say is not going to be popular here ,but i'm a realist ,so i keep things real.

Sadly you're going to be disappointed at 95% of the CMA schools out there ,not just Wing Chun. The simple fact is too many people train for different reasons ,and even fewer CMA schools really spar. Yes most spar ,but it's a controlled kickboxing type of sparring.

The closest most people come to actual fighting at these schools is two man drill sets ,this is not fighting nor should it be thought of as preparing you for fighting. The only way to prepare for fighting is to "FIGHT".

Most people spend time doing drills and forms at CMA schools these days ,then when they do spar they rarely if ever try to apply any of the techniques they spent time drilling.

So what happens is they result to doing what comes naturally which is the kickboxing type of fighting. Don't get me wrong there's nothing wrong with kickboxers or kicboxing ,but there is something wrong when a CMA stylist does it.

Because a CMA stylist is not a trained kickboxer ,they're just trying to put punches and kicks together ,so it looks like bad kickboxing.

Then add to the fact that most have never been really hit like how a boxer hits ,and you can see where i'm coming from. Like an old quote "Everyone Has A Plan Until They Get Hit"

Once a person gets hit by a decent boxer they forget alot of the drills they learned ,and they're just trying to survive. I know because i've been there before in my training. I knew drills and forms out the wazoo ,but once i was hit by a pro boxer ,that trained with us ,i knew something was wrong.

That is why noone can knock Muay Thai,Boxing,BJJ or any grappling art ,because these people apply their stuff everyday in training. Most CMA ppl have applied maybe 20% of what they've learned ,if they're lucky. Too many fall into that my stuff is too deadly to practice. 

I study Black Tiger as my name says ,we not only spar ,but we spar without gloves,headgear,pads etc...

While sparring we don't limit any technique ,i mean you don't want to strike anyone with anything you know can be fatal ,but we strike the groin,throat,and other areas. Like my sifu says "you have to be able to withstand the pain" The only way you can know if you can withstand the pain is to be hit.

Most schools can't operate the way we do because they would have no students. My sifu teaches because he wants to ,not because he has too ,so he's not limited by having to earn a living. Most people in CMA schools can't apply half the techniques they learn because they simply don't take the time to understand the techniques.

As soon as they learn one technique instead of learning it inside out and making the technique a part of them ,they try to move on to the next technique or form. So they never truly understand the application of the technique or the technique itself. You can't use a technique naturally that you never practiced to make it second nature.

But it should start to change for some CMA schools ,because BJJ,MMA,and NHB is the best thing to happen to CMA since wars stop being fought with hand to hand combat. It was then that 95% of CMA styles became stagnant ,and failed to evolve with the times.

jeff


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## DeLamar.J (Jul 15, 2004)

Interesting post tiger. Im sad to hear that. I know that Wing Chun has the potentail to blow up crazy and go mainstream, even to the UFC. They just need a good representative. I have read soooo much about the style and I am so interested in learning it. I just want to learn from a direct student of Yip Man. When Yip passed away, I think that was possibly the worst thing that ever happened in the MA community. He was like the last real Kung Fu master. It makes me so sad to see such a great system get disrespected all the time when it faces other practicle arts like plain old boxing. What about this school http://www.hchwingchun.com.au/ it seems like a legit one, I just cant travel over seas to train, I wish to god I could though.


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## Phil Elmore (Jul 15, 2004)

There's plenty of poor Wing Chun out there.  However, if you find a _good_ school, you'll do well with it.  My instructor also has extensive experience in boxing and White Crane, as well as Kali (which I also study at the same school).


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## DeLamar.J (Jul 15, 2004)

And to add another thing, I absolutely hate these Wing Chun guys who try to re invent the style as there own, or change the name for various reasons, every time that happens it takes away from the way Yip Man taught the art. It screws up MA systems IMO when people do that. Like some karate schools I been to took out certain forms or basic moves and replaced it with this or that for there own personal reason, its like, what the hell are you doing! you teach a student this way, he teaches another,and so on, before you know it your practicing something that is completely different from what the master of the art intended. Back in the day, your MA skill decided if you lived or died. The masters knew what they were talking about. Thats why I belive so strongly in traditional training. These days everyone wants to be freakin Bruce Lee and invent there own style and make a name for them selves that its screwing up MA's. It kind of puts a chip on my shoulder sometimes when I visit another school and I get this impression. I hate that.


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## Katsu Jin Ken (Jul 15, 2004)

I guess i was lucky, we all out spar occasionally after you get the forms down.  My sifu has expierence in Bak mei, wrestling, JJ, and san shou.


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## 7starmantis (Jul 15, 2004)

Its true that many CMA schools dont fight enough, and its true that most MA schools dont fight enough as well. I dont mind saying there are CMA schools that aren't very good, but that doesn't reflect on the true system. Wing Chun is a good system, its just not taken seriously sometimes as is alot of other types of MA. I know the feeling your talking about expecting alot more and not seeing it. But it takes a long time in many CMA to really become effective at using the principles. Once someone has really learned them and actually used them, they can then give you what you expected.

7sm


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 15, 2004)

DeLamar.J,

Don't get me wrong ,there are some very good sifu and schools out there. You just have to be careful not to get sucked in by the bad ones.

As far as the different names like Wing Chun,Ving Tsun,Wing Tsun etc.... That happens for a few different reasons.

1. It shows the different lineages of Wing Chun ,so because it's spelled different ,it doesn't mean it's someones new creation.

2. Also alot of times it's just the different dialects and way things are translated that give different spelling. Alot of Chinese words don't translate into english ,also there are many ways to spell the same thing.

3.Yip Man ,although a great master ,was not the last great master. In his later yrs even while teaching Bruce Lee. Yip Man had a very bad opium habit ,so he did not teach everyone the same exact techniques. So some learned more and different techniques than others ,that's another reason for the different lineages under Yip Man.

Because someone learned directly from Yip Man or any Grandmaster for that matter ,doesn't mean they will be a great or even a good teacher. Someone can train with a master and never pick up the full transmission of the style,techniques or the therioes of the style.

Don't assume because someone has the title of sifu or master ,that they automatically know what they're doing. There are many a Chinese sifu here that are just as fake as anyone else. Bruce Lee ,while one of the best things to happen in bringing CMA to america was also one of tyhe worst things that could happen.

Because many chinese people that came to america after him were thrust into teaching simply because they were chinese. People assumed that everyone from china knew kung fu ,while some were masters ,others were either people that had learned some or ppl that just made up stuff.

There are very good sifu out there ,so don't be disappointed ,you just have to search them out. When i found my sifu he was no longer teaching. I chased him and hassled him for 1yr before he agreed to teach me Black Tiger. I was determined that he was going to teach me and i wasn't going to accept no for an answer.

I recently started learning Hung Fut (Buddha Palm) kung fu also ,under a master that also was not teaching anymore. So these masters are out there you just have to find them.

Good Luck!

But Don't give up ,if a sifu can't explain how,when,where,and why you use a technique ,then you need to move on. Don't be affraid to ask questions ,if they won't or can't answer your questions ,then it's not a school where you want to be.

A good sifu can show you everything better than they can tell you.

jeff


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## Tony (Jul 16, 2004)

In my style of Kung Fu and we enter tournaments as well so there are some Kung Fu schools who do do this. But I know Wing Chun really doesn't put much emphasis on this, but even so I believe it is a good system.
You must remember that you're only as good as the training you receive and whether it is practical to use. We cannot judge the effectiveness of  a style based on merely a few individuals.


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## GZepeda (Jul 16, 2004)

I cannot really say anything about the schools in the Midwest, as I have never been to one to observe.
The problem that has been brought up is usurpation of the style's name without proper training. It seems like WC has become the new word to draw students and money with.
It's my bet that you indeed found a mcdojo, and it's also my bet that there are some great WC stylists in Ohio.
I have only been to one WC school, here in Tucson. It is legit, and I can't imagine anyone trying to outbox Sifu Fong.
There was someone on budoseek that was looking for a WC school, found Fong's and started last Tuesday, I think. I still have not heard back from him as to how he found the training.


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## brothershaw (Jul 17, 2004)

Black Tiger pretty much hit it on the head. The key and hard part is to find a school that is realistic in training. REalism doesnt mean you cant be traditional and pass on some of the culture that comes along with a chinese or whatever art. REalistic means not training in a bubble that your style is the greatest or that you will only be atttacked by someone who attacks just the way you practice things. Realistic is having a teacher who will tell you that trying X against a boxer is going to get you knocked out, or trying that against a grappler is you will still get taken to the ground. That means finding a treacher with a good base of knowledge who is also willing to pass it along. 
Realistic also means knowing that for things to work they will not look exactly like how you do them in the forms, and drills those are just templates.


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## SilentLucidity (Jul 19, 2004)

Hi 

I am new here and a beginner in wing chun. I wonder if in the olden days teachers like Yip Man encouraged their students to spar. I suppose my question is whether sparring with gloves/equipment constitutes tradional wing chun training?

rgrds
SL


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## brothershaw (Jul 19, 2004)

I dont know( honestly) if they even had sparring gear in the old, old days. I remember reading that protective sparring gear developed out of TKD. I can say from painful experience getting kicked hard by someone who knows how to kick still hurts even with full protective gear. 
 Sparring with some kind of discipline is defintely a good thing even though sometimes painful and leading to injury.


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## SilentLucidity (Jul 19, 2004)

Hi

 At our wing chun schol the sifu encourages both sides. He encourages traditional training as in developing senstivity and one on one technique work + sparring in the ring. I suppose he has not really done any on the ground grappling work as far as I know but he does make us practice continuous punching to throat and head while being taken down. 

 I do'nt think I would ever be disappointed in wing chun. Our sifu is an experienecd fighter inside and outside the ring and always tries to show the practical application of wing chun, from there on I suppose it is up to the individual. I have also seen some material by Emin Bopetz to prove how effective wing chun can be.

 On the flip side I have been on the receiving end too where my then sifu had no real idea about a real fight and missed some crucial stuff in our training, purely concertrating on traditional senstivity training. I trained for about a year there on and off until I just got bored and disenchanted with wing chun and it's effectiveness but that changes when I saw some real wing cgun application years later.

  rgrds


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## spatulahunter (Jul 20, 2004)

GZepeda said:
			
		

> I cannot really say anything about the schools in the Midwest, as I have never been to one to observe.
> The problem that has been brought up is usurpation of the style's name without proper training. It seems like WC has become the new word to draw students and money with.
> It's my bet that you indeed found a mcdojo, and it's also my bet that there are some great WC stylists in Ohio.
> I have only been to one WC school, here in Tucson. It is legit, and I can't imagine anyone trying to outbox Sifu Fong.
> There was someone on budoseek that was looking for a WC school, found Fong's and started last Tuesday, I think. I still have not heard back from him as to how he found the training.



My teacher (who is a master under ip ching) use to train under fong and i have heard that he was one heck of a teacher, all the older guys said that he is really good and a nice guy.


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## Corporal Hicks (Sep 15, 2004)

Thats why I belive so strongly in traditional training. These days everyone wants to be freakin Bruce Lee and invent there own style and make a name for them selves that its screwing up MA's. It kind of puts a chip on my shoulder sometimes when I visit another school and I get this impression. I hate that.[/QUOTE] 

Well, sorry my friend but thats the way its going, who wants to learn a style that can be seen as ineffective in a time where violence is growing? Most people also do not have time to learn traditional Martial Arts properly they just want to learn how to fight, and I've got to agree with them. Why teach people all the crap in an art and waste their time even if it is traditional or why just not mix some tradtional Wing Chung and fill in the gaps that people can notice. I'm not talking about people trying to make a name for themselves I'm on about how people see the art as being useful in self defence or as a sport. There on, maybe thats why patterns and kata are being strutinised so much?! However if the instructors are trying to make a living then they need to keep the majority of people interested in what they are doing so they keep recieving their income. Or some people alternatively carry a gun. In america anyway.

Regards


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## brothershaw (Sep 15, 2004)

You could visit any school on any given day, and maybe because there was a really rough training session the day before, or maybe its only  level practitioners, or at the time you are watching the teacher has them doing some really basic stuff for some reason, you could walk out and say those guys or that style is lame. Some people at some schools dont really show thier skills when people are visiting, because they dont care about impressing people. That said.

Yes some people have minimal skills and will never improve. Yes training to be truly proficient in many of the sytems out there averages about 10 years minimum. Yes its nice to be proficient in sparring but sparring is not fighting. 
Being a great sparrer or sport fighter is one thing and its good. But being a great fighter with whatever system you study means finishing somebody off quickly and immediately and thats something  different.I am not talking about any of that my technique is too deadly b.s. . I am saying using your system to finish somebody off quickly whether you study some stlye of karate, jujitsu or kung fu is not boxing, kickboxing or pointsparring, its maximum damage in minimal time. Proficiency in one doesnt guarantee proficiency in the other.  Alot of people arent proficient in either but think they are or confuse the 2 creating alot of the hodgepodge thats out there. 
I dont claim to be proficient in either but i know there are some great teachers left out there, and it will take me a long time to get where I would like to be.


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## Michael Maison (Sep 23, 2004)

*You are among the most intelligent, most sensible, and most knowledgable people I have ever seen or heard writing on the subject.   Thank you for your terrific insights, and I hope to hear more from you.*

*Thanks again,*

*MM*




			
				Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> DeLamar.J,
> 
> Don't get me wrong ,there are some very good sifu and schools out there. You just have to be careful not to get sucked in by the bad ones.
> 
> ...


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## Corporal Hicks (Sep 23, 2004)

Michael Maison said:
			
		

> *You are among the most intelligent, most sensible, and most knowledgable people I have ever seen or heard writing on the subject. Thank you for your terrific insights, and I hope to hear more from you.*
> 
> *Thanks again,*
> 
> ...


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## Black Tiger Fist (Sep 25, 2004)

Corporal Hicks said:
			
		

> Michael Maison said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## wingchunner (Sep 28, 2004)

I challenge you, DeLamar.J, to try my teacher's school in Cleveland.  I'm sure you won't be disappointed with his Wing Chun.  His website is:
www.immortalpalm.com

Good luck.

Marty


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## ed-swckf (Sep 29, 2004)

wingchunner said:
			
		

> I challenge you, DeLamar.J, to try my teacher's school in Cleveland. I'm sure you won't be disappointed with his Wing Chun. His website is:
> www.immortalpalm.com
> 
> Good luck.
> ...


i took on the challenge and i went to the website.  Man i'm tough!!  

(please don't take offence i'm just playing around)


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## DeLamar.J (Sep 29, 2004)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> i took on the challenge and i went to the website.  Man i'm tough!!
> 
> (please don't take offence i'm just playing around)




Bwaaaahaaahaaaaa :lol:


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## Van Kuen (Oct 11, 2004)

If I could chime in here as well about the adding and changing of styles, the wing chun of yesterday was evolving just as it is today.  Things like the pole were added later, and even movements like gaan sau did not exist orginally and was added later in the system.  Just food for thought.  Even the "classical" styles evolved.  The main thing is to keep the theories and cores intact and not to totally disembowl the art when making modifications.


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## ajvdarwin (Dec 8, 2004)

Wing Chun is not for sparring it's for the real thing. Sparring is done under controlled conditions, no kicking to the knees groin etc.


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## Corporal Hicks (Dec 9, 2004)

ajvdarwin said:
			
		

> Wing Chun is not for sparring it's for the real thing. Sparring is done under controlled conditions, no kicking to the knees groin etc.


I agree, thats what makes wing chun so effective, just kicking some butt!


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## Aleem (Dec 22, 2004)

Hey I'm new to WingTsun and new to the forums... new to martial arts in general.

I was wondering how much of an opportunity I'll get at applying techniques which can be potentially effective. What I mean is that, I can picture myself sparring (I have never sparred) but not getting the opportunity to use WingTsun movements and principles... ; a kick to the knee for example... suppose it came to the real thing, is it sufficient to learn such kicks without being able to practice them on a real moving target?

I'm really excited about my WingTsun classes that are coming up next term (at university) but I was wondering how others practice things like their kicks, without being able to fully apply them due to their potentially injurous nature.

Does ^ that make sense? I'm sorry, I'm not the best at expressing myself accurately.

Thanks

Aleem


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## DarrenJew (Jan 3, 2005)

I also want to add... that it depends upon what your Sifu teaches... I've seen a form of Wing Chun that looks more like Tai Chi, the movents slow and flowing. 

The move similar yet different than the ones I learned when I was young.

Now that the Internet is active we are able to view how other schools teach their own version, many Martial Arts systems, not just Wing Chun. When I was young I only knew what my Sifu's taught me. Know that Im older and whith the help of the internet I've gained a much more opened mind on how diverse a system could be. Where as before.... one could easily say... They made that up, they are just milking money from there students, not really knowing the system, just because it did not match the way I learned it. Know I know that teaching a martial arts system can lead to re-interpretation, and overtime it can evolve into totally different. As many different lineages over the centuries, diversity with a system can be nothing but expected.

Keep an open mind, maybe that Wing Chun Instructor does not fit your style, I recommend to look elsewere, I've found Wing Chun to be a very effective fighting system. Unfortunately I've had to use it in some practical applications, and it does work!

Good luck on your journey. May you live in interesting times.


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## DarrenJew (Jan 3, 2005)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I have found a Wing Chun teacher, and I must say I am impressed. I was trapped, battle punched, and many other things that I dont know the term for yet but they didnt feel to good. It was almost like he knew what I was going to do before I did it, and at the end I was all wore out and he was not even the slightest bit tired. He said it was because I was trying to muscle him to much and was not relaxing, I would come in strong, then he would loose sensitivity and roll into me with punches, using my force to wind up his own punches. I was very tired at the end.
> I felt like I have missed out on this training my whole life, I also kind of felt like I wasted all my life training in karate when I should have been in Wing Chun.


I am glad DeLamar finally found a Wing Chun Teacher that he respected. Now I believe he see's what many of us see in this art of Wing Chun and why it is so special to many of us.
(note: I do believe in diversity; Karate teaches great discipline and perseverance as well as self defense, it does bring out a lot of confidence in its disciples. Though I favor Wing Chun, I don't believe in discouraging other systems. After all many Martial Art systems have been around for hundreds of years and have withstood the test of time. They may verywell and probably will be here a lot longer than any of us.)


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## Angelusmortis (Feb 1, 2005)

I've just started 4 weeks ago, from what I've seen of it, I'm quite impressed. My sifu constantly repeats the need for realistic attacks (strength and intent etc..), combined with (in the kwoon) control. I come home covered in bruises, and thoroughly enjoy it too...(must be the masochist in me...) My opinion is also that styles either suit you or not, and while not putting down regular boxing at all, getting thumped in the head and growing cauliflower ears ain't my idea of a fun time... that said, there is a tremendous amount of validity in it. My preference is for wing chun. I've done ju-jitsu, and boxing in the RN. The comment made about the first time you get a smack in the mouth is soooo true to.. Happened to me in boxing training, first thump, my legs were like bambi on ice...! Good lesson there, try not to get hit??? 

A good sifu, the right style, and a reasonable level of fitness and a certain element of "realism" are invaluable. I seriously recommend a book called "3 second fighter" by Geoff Thompson. Good stuff...


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## Simon Curran (Feb 2, 2005)

Angelusmortis said:
			
		

> I've just started 4 weeks ago, from what I've seen of it, I'm quite impressed. My sifu constantly repeats the need for realistic attacks (strength and intent etc..), combined with (in the kwoon) control. I come home covered in bruises, and thoroughly enjoy it too...(must be the masochist in me...) My opinion is also that styles either suit you or not, and while not putting down regular boxing at all, getting thumped in the head and growing cauliflower ears ain't my idea of a fun time... that said, there is a tremendous amount of validity in it. My preference is for wing chun. I've done ju-jitsu, and boxing in the RN. The comment made about the first time you get a smack in the mouth is soooo true to.. Happened to me in boxing training, first thump, my legs were like bambi on ice...! Good lesson there, try not to get hit???
> 
> A good sifu, the right style, and a reasonable level of fitness and a certain element of "realism" are invaluable. I seriously recommend a book called "3 second fighter" by Geoff Thompson. Good stuff...


I'm in total agreement with you about the smack in the mouth thing, whatever you thought you were going to do goes to the dogs when it happens, but I kinda (I did say kinda) disagree with you as regards Western boxing, yes getting regularly thumped in the head is definatley not a good thing, but until a person is used to getting a belting they are never going to know how they would or wouldn't react, and anyone can say that the idea is not to get hit, but the truth is, in a real altercation, people aren't waiting to square off and the bell to ring, they are intent on ringing each others bells, and if a person is used to getting hit then thay have a better chance of turning things around than the person who as never been hit by a real punch.
Just my opinion, not a criticism.


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## Angelusmortis (Feb 2, 2005)

A fair point well made mate, I just don't like being smacked in the mouth too often , so if I can, I avoid...lol. I've taken enough to know that even with the best of intentions and plans, getting a punch in the swede is enough to just cause as much surprise as anything else...The book I referred to "3 second fighter" sings the praises of pre-emptive striking, it's remarkably well written, and utterly open minded which is something that can be pretty lacking in MA across the spectrum I sometimes find....just my opinion...Well worth the read.


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## Simon Curran (Feb 6, 2005)

Angelusmortis said:
			
		

> A fair point well made mate, I just don't like being smacked in the mouth too often , so if I can, I avoid...lol. I've taken enough to know that even with the best of intentions and plans, getting a punch in the swede is enough to just cause as much surprise as anything else...The book I referred to "3 second fighter" sings the praises of pre-emptive striking, it's remarkably well written, and utterly open minded which is something that can be pretty lacking in MA across the spectrum I sometimes find....just my opinion...Well worth the read.


I will keep my eyes open for the book, thanks.


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## bcbernam777 (Feb 22, 2005)

Part of the problem with Wing Chun, modern Wing chun is that a great deal of its students, even 2-3 generations from Yip Man tend to subsitute strength as opposed to usage of the structure, it is a difficult thing to learn because we are so strength orientated, *if you use muscular strength in Wing Chun it will not work *period. You maybe able to become a good fighter in the short term but in the longer term you will not progress, and become effective. This is the problem therefore with WC McDojo's, they teach primaraly strength based Wing Chun as opposed to structure based Wing Chun.


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## 7starmantis (Feb 22, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Part of the problem with Wing Chun, modern Wing chun is that a great deal of its students, even 2-3 generations from Yip Man tend to subsitute strength as opposed to usage of the structure, it is a difficult thing to learn because we are so strength orientated, *if you use muscular strength in Wing Chun it will not work *period. You maybe able to become a good fighter in the short term but in the longer term you will not progress, and become effective. This is the problem therefore with WC McDojo's, they teach primaraly strength based Wing Chun as opposed to structure based Wing Chun.


 Good post, I agree 100%

 7sm


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## Angelusmortis (Feb 27, 2005)

Think I'm probably lucky as to my WC school. Good mix of a lot of things, emphasis on good technique, hard hitting, bit of pad work (occasionally) and training with a variety of partners to prevent familiarity with one person, and their accompanying size/ability etc etc...Agreed, good point about the technique over strength too. Technique every time in any MA...IMHO...


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## OneWhoKnowsNothing (Nov 15, 2005)

Dear people from MartialTalk.com,
       Gentlemen: I come to, with absolute determination, to understand where to find a good teacher. I come to you now, lost, in knowing what a good teacher is, and, or the place to begin looking for such a person. I'm a boy of 14, with a great passion for the Martial Arts, and would like to find a good teacher, to guild me, to be the very best i could ever believe to be. I started at a Karate school, about a year ago, and recently, have come to the conclusion, after many hours of research on the internet, that what that school was missing,...was a sense of Philosophy, and theory, realism, and complete respect. I'm greatly upset about that fact. I'm considering now to leave the school, in search of one that will teach all of the fundementals of Martial Arts, and to be absultely the best i can be. I've come across this forum, and while i was reading, i found a website of a school, the website was called ImmortalPalm.com. I've read up on this school, and it seems to be quite good,..the teachers seem to be quite amazing as well. If anyone could give me their opinoins about this school, i would greatly appreciate it. I just do not want to make the same mistake, that i have in the past. 
             Thank you all very much for you time and cooperation,
       -OneWhoKnowsNothing


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## Blindside (Nov 16, 2005)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> Dear people from MartialTalk.com,
> Gentlemen: I come to, with absolute determination, to understand where to find a good teacher. I come to you now, lost, in knowing what a good teacher is, and, or the place to begin looking for such a person. I'm a boy of 14, with a great passion for the Martial Arts, and would like to find a good teacher, to guild me, to be the very best i could ever believe to be. I started at a Karate school, about a year ago, and recently, have come to the conclusion, after many hours of research on the internet, that what that school was missing,...was a sense of Philosophy, and theory, realism, and complete respect. I'm greatly upset about that fact. I'm considering now to leave the school, in search of one that will teach all of the fundementals of Martial Arts, and to be absultely the best i can be. I've come across this forum, and while i was reading, i found a website of a school, the website was called ImmortalPalm.com. I've read up on this school, and it seems to be quite good,..the teachers seem to be quite amazing as well. If anyone could give me their opinoins about this school, i would greatly appreciate it. I just do not want to make the same mistake, that i have in the past.
> Thank you all very much for you time and cooperation,
> -OneWhoKnowsNothing


 
Can a moderator split this into its own thread???  It doesn't really fit here.

Thanks,


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## arnisador (Nov 16, 2005)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> ImmortalPalm.com



The web site is reassuring. But, be aware that Tai Chi and Ba Gua are internal arts that take a looooooong time to master!


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## Blindside (Nov 16, 2005)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> Dear people from MartialTalk.com,
> Gentlemen: I come to, with absolute determination, to understand where to find a good teacher. I come to you now, lost, in knowing what a good teacher is, and, or the place to begin looking for such a person. I'm a boy of 14, with a great passion for the Martial Arts, and would like to find a good teacher, to guild me, to be the very best i could ever believe to be. I started at a Karate school, about a year ago, and recently, have come to the conclusion, after many hours of research on the internet, that what that school was missing,...was a sense of Philosophy, and theory, realism, and complete respect.


 
My first thought is that all martial art teachers are human and that most instructors won't have all that you want to idealize in the martial arts.  The Immortal Palm folks might be fantastic, I haven't a clue, but realize that this is just an organization made up of multiple styles and instructors.  One instructor might be great while the others can't tie their shoes.  

I think you have your goals set very high, and thats commendable, but I suspect your high expectations will lead to some disappointment along the way.  Good luck in your search, if you give us an area where you are looking for instructor perhaps members on the board can give some advice.

Lamont


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## OneWhoKnowsNothing (Nov 16, 2005)

Dear Blindside,
     I apologize for not continueing with "the right topic", of this forum, but the questions i have are for those in it. I know what you say is true, and i to, have come to the conclusion, that many dissapointments lye ahead, but, though with that said, that doesn't mean i'm going to give up in my search. My internsions are not to sound foolish, though to some, they may be, but i do indeed have high expectations. And with once, getting pulled into a bad school, i wish that to never happen again. I live in Willowick Blindside, just to answer your question.
     I'm very lost, in the fact i don't know what to completely look for in a good teacher, and,..or where to find such a person. I know, there will be things, that be of my own likeing, and it be not of others,(and quite possibly vis-versa), but there are certin things i know not what to look for, and that, is the very reason i come to you. I thank you very much for your time and cooperation Mister Blindside, if any more to say you have,..i be, incredibly grateful.
        -OneWhoKnowsNothing


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## Spook (Nov 16, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Part of the problem with Wing Chun, modern Wing chun is that a great deal of its students, even 2-3 generations from Yip Man tend to subsitute strength as opposed to usage of the structure, it is a difficult thing to learn because we are so strength orientated, *if you use muscular strength in Wing Chun it will not work *period. You maybe able to become a good fighter in the short term but in the longer term you will not progress, and become effective. This is the problem therefore with WC McDojo's, they teach primaraly strength based Wing Chun as opposed to structure based Wing Chun.


 
Can you say "nail on the head?"

I agree as well. Too many times do i see WC practitioners muscling their way through forms, drills, and techniques.


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## dmax999 (Nov 16, 2005)

bcbernam777 said:
			
		

> Part of the problem with Wing Chun, modern Wing chun is that a great deal of its students, even 2-3 generations from Yip Man tend to subsitute strength as opposed to usage of the structure, it is a difficult thing to learn because we are so strength orientated, *if you use muscular strength in Wing Chun it will not work *period. You maybe able to become a good fighter in the short term but in the longer term you will not progress, and become effective. This is the problem therefore with WC McDojo's, they teach primaraly strength based Wing Chun as opposed to structure based Wing Chun.


 
Isn't this true of all CMA? Only the "Internal" ones actually train for it. (I personally think of WC as the 4th internal MA)


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## arnisador (Nov 16, 2005)

Wing chun internal! I don't think I've heard that suggested before--just Hsing-I, B Gua, Tai Chi, and possibly, if one considers it 'martial', Chi Gong.


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## Ric Flair (Nov 16, 2005)

The laws here in North America make it hard for people to spar full contact in the class without too much padding.  

Maybe that is why i read somewhere once a WC Sifu said "In class you hone your skills and talents but, only in the real world out there will you be able to test for yourself what is efficient and what is not.  Here in the class i give you the knowledge of the tools of the trade, it is up to you as the artist to go out there to obtain and learn (sometimes the hard way) when and how which tools will be brought out to use for the right circumstances"

Also, an Escrima teacher once said "When sparring or fightng, this is not the time to figure out forms and movements.  During a fight you must adapt and flow with the energy and movments of your opponent.  Forms/movements/reaction timing are all to be drilled over and over in the class (alone and with partners) until everything practiced becomes second nature.  Once you are familiar with the basics, you can spar/fight with someone and see which movements come out naturally and work naturally.  YOur mind is to be empty of anticipation and not be preoccupied with what you need to be do, your body will do the talking and walking...  Of course many battles are to be lost in order for a war to be won sometimes.  

I personally know that a lot of Boxers and Thai boxers are exceptional fighters and i'm sure can give a lot of Wing Chun peeps a tough time.  I mean a boxer who can throw 20 punches in a few seconds would be a challenge to anyone.

Anyways going back to my point, yeah  i think with the right teacher, the right student, the right attitudes Wing Chun can be a very effective Art.


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## OneWhoKnowsNothing (Nov 16, 2005)

Arnisador:
   You must not forget Liu He Ba Fa Quan.


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## arnisador (Nov 16, 2005)

Ah yes, Water Boxing! I do know of Six Harmonies, but had forgotten.


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## OneWhoKnowsNothing (Nov 17, 2005)

I love that website, I've read every Kung-Fu style on it. It's such an amazing website. you could not also forget though, about (Perpetual Spring-Time Fist),...or Ever Lasting Spring-Time Fist, known as Wudan.


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## dmax999 (Nov 17, 2005)

Lie Hu Ba Fa is without question an internal style, its just usually not listed as one of the main ones because it is far less known.

But WC not an internal style?  Why wouldn't it be?  What really defines an internal vs external style?  Its not practicing slowly, Xing-I and BaGua wouldn't be there then.  Its more of concentrating on using your entire body for each move/strike.  While all styles do this eventually, internal styles start with training this then go for speed.  Bruce Lee's "one inch punch" I believe was from WC, but amazingly it is almost the exact same thing as fajing in TCC.

One reason for WC not to be is that it is a southern style, while all the "traditional" internal styles are northern.


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## OneWhoKnowsNothing (Nov 17, 2005)

pretty much, what defines an internal art, is the act of not useing force upon force. 
    i've read many a time, that Wing Chun is indeed, both; an internal and external, because it has theories and teachings from both.


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## brothershaw (Nov 18, 2005)

dmax999 said:
			
		

> Lie Hu Ba Fa is without question an internal style, its just usually not listed as one of the main ones because it is far less known.
> 
> But WC not an internal style? Why wouldn't it be? What really defines an internal vs external style? Its not practicing slowly, Xing-I and BaGua wouldn't be there then. Its more of concentrating on using your entire body for each move/strike. While all styles do this eventually, internal styles start with training this then go for speed. Bruce Lee's "one inch punch" I believe was from WC, but amazingly it is almost the exact same thing as fajing in TCC.
> 
> One reason for WC not to be is that it is a southern style, while all the "traditional" internal styles are northern.


 
Fajing in tcc,= jing in wing chun but different
Not everybody gets it/ trains it


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2005)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> You must not forget Liu He Ba Fa Quan.



I saw a book on this at Barnes and Noble last night:
*Liuhebafa Five Character Secrets : Chinese Classics, Translations, Commentary* by Paul Dillon

Unfortunately for me it is mostly text aimed at practitioners, with very few pictures. So, it was little help for me in learning about the style!


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## brothershaw (Nov 26, 2005)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> pretty much, what defines an internal art, is the act of not useing force upon force.
> i've read many a time, that Wing Chun is indeed, both; an internal and external, because it has theories and teachings from both.


 
Not just not using force on force but also using internal "mechanics" to generate your own force as opposed to just muscular mechanics. I dont claim to have this ability or an accurate way to explain it.


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## arnisador (Nov 26, 2005)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> i've read many a time, that Wing Chun is indeed, both; an internal and external, because it has theories and teachings from both.



When I read this I thought it was quite surprising, maybe even wrong. Today I had my first full lesson in Wing Chun (earlier sections of a JKD class did bits and pieces of it) and I can now see where you (or those who say this) are coming from. I'm not fully convinced yet, but it seems much more plausible to me after doing don sau (one-armed chi sao), for example.

Still...there's a continual exhortation to strike with the arm, not the body, so as not to overcommit. That screams external to me, not internal.


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 27, 2005)

Wing Chun is both external and internal, there is still force involved but the force is diffeernt to the majority of force in MA's. This force can more properly be called "energy" and the fact that Wing Chun is built on 3 distinct energys, that are developed by the 3 empty hand forms. 

*External*: Sinews, Tendons, bones = Structure,

*Internal*: Mind force, Chi Kung = Internal energy

*"Not just not using force on force but also using internal "mechanics" to generate your own force as opposed to just muscular mechanics. I dont claim to have this ability or an accurate way to explain it."*

Nail on the head stuff, the whole purpose of the YJKYM (stance) in Sui Lum Tao training is to learn how to generate these internal mechanics which is why SUI LUM TAO IS ESSENTIAL. Sui Lum Tao is the engine that drives Wing Chun, and your capability in Wing Chun is directly measured by your capability in the Sui Lum Tao, too often it is simply overlooked for What is considered the meat of Wing Chun e.g. bui Jee, the mook etc


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 27, 2005)

SilentLucidity said:
			
		

> Hi
> 
> I am new here and a beginner in wing chun. I wonder if in the olden days teachers like Yip Man encouraged their students to spar. I suppose my question is whether sparring with gloves/equipment constitutes tradional wing chun training?
> 
> ...


 
Yes Yip Man did


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## brothershaw (Nov 27, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> When I read this I thought it was quite surprising, maybe even wrong. Today I had my first full lesson in Wing Chun (earlier sections of a JKD class did bits and pieces of it) and I can now see where you (or those who say this) are coming from. I'm not fully convinced yet, but it seems much more plausible to me after doing don sau (one-armed chi sao), for example.
> 
> Still...there's a continual exhortation to strike with the arm, not the body, so as not to overcommit. That screams external to me, not internal.


 
As I am sure you know very well in MA sometimes the way people try to explain things gives the wrong idea, happens to me all the time.
On the one hand your strikes should have full body power behind them not just arm strength.
On the other hand there has to be a certain detachment of the arm of from the body so you can let the strike "go" so you can issue the next one and the next five strikes after that. 
I believe that is the point some people miss in chain punching.
YOu are training your arms to be like an UZI shooting out multiple strikes all with the same amount of energy as the rest at rapid speed with no tension. THe average beginner doesnt have the coordination to throw out the different strikes  and blocks in rapid continous coordination so they are taught to chain punch at first, later they shoudl be able to replace the punches with fut saus, wong jeungs,tans saus and so on.
Back to internal/ external- to be able to throw full power strikes rapidly and with no real wind up  like in the more mid range styles ( since you have no room or time in close quarters) you need another way to generate power that is not based on big movement of muscle.
I have personally felt close range strikes that had as much power or more than most people could put into any strike with a wind up, so to me its definitely real.

Bruce Lees' one inch punch, hand trapping and speed was the tip of the ice berg.


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## Ric Flair (Nov 28, 2005)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> As I am sure you know very well in MA sometimes the way people try to explain things gives the wrong idea, happens to me all the time.
> On the one hand your strikes should have full body power behind them not just arm strength.
> On the other hand there has to be a certain detachment of the arm of from the body so you can let the strike "go" so you can issue the next one and the next five strikes after that.
> I believe that is the point some people miss in chain punching.
> ...


 
didn't Bruce Lee change his mind and decided to continue training in his original Wing Chun back in Hong Kong right b4 he died???


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## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

I don't think I've heard that suggested before. He was pretty committed to the idea(l)s of JKD by then, I think.


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## ed-swckf (Nov 29, 2005)

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> didn't Bruce Lee change his mind and decided to continue training in his original Wing Chun back in Hong Kong right b4 he died???


 
Thats a new one on me.  I don't think he ever stopped training the wing chun he had learnt though.


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## Ric Flair (Nov 29, 2005)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> Thats a new one on me. I don't think he ever stopped training the wing chun he had learnt though.


 
I read somewhere that when Bruce Lee was filming his last movie b4 leaving this earth, he decided to re-visit one of Yip Man's senior students in Hong Kong and learn some more.

This article indicated that Bruce Lee realized that a lot of his natural fighting abilities depended on distance, speed, and youth.  Bruce came to the self knowledge that one day he too would be frail and old like Yip Man and, knew speed and distance would not be on his side forever.  Bruce Lee came to the conclusion that there was way more to Wing Chun and martial arts than what he already knew.  So he decided to study and train in Wing Chun even more in order to develop more of the internal energy, unfortunately he died before the fruits of his labor could blossum.

I don't know if i can find this article ever again


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## bcbernam777 (Nov 30, 2005)

It was not long before Bruce died that he spent about 12 hours with Wong Shun Leung, explaining his way of fighting, there is a story about it on Clive Potters web site (former student of Wong Shun Leung)


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## ed-swckf (Dec 11, 2005)

Ric Flair said:
			
		

> I read somewhere that when Bruce Lee was filming his last movie b4 leaving this earth, he decided to re-visit one of Yip Man's senior students in Hong Kong and learn some more.
> 
> This article indicated that Bruce Lee realized that a lot of his natural fighting abilities depended on distance, speed, and youth. Bruce came to the self knowledge that one day he too would be frail and old like Yip Man and, knew speed and distance would not be on his side forever. Bruce Lee came to the conclusion that there was way more to Wing Chun and martial arts than what he already knew. So he decided to study and train in Wing Chun even more in order to develop more of the internal energy, unfortunately he died before the fruits of his labor could blossum.
> 
> I don't know if i can find this article ever again


 
I read up on this and found the wong shun leung article that bcbernam777 mentioned, it described his intent to train wing chun again but nothing about him actually doing so.  Interesting all the same.


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## SilatFan (Jan 10, 2006)

OneWhoKnowsNothing said:
			
		

> Dear people from MartialTalk.com,
> Gentlemen: I come to, with absolute determination, to understand where to find a good teacher. I come to you now, lost, in knowing what a good teacher is, and, or the place to begin looking for such a person. I'm a boy of 14, with a great passion for the Martial Arts, and would like to find a good teacher, to guild me, to be the very best i could ever believe to be. I started at a Karate school, about a year ago, and recently, have come to the conclusion, after many hours of research on the internet, that what that school was missing,...was a sense of Philosophy, and theory, realism, and complete respect. I'm greatly upset about that fact. I'm considering now to leave the school, in search of one that will teach all of the fundementals of Martial Arts, and to be absultely the best i can be. I've come across this forum, and while i was reading, i found a website of a school, the website was called ImmortalPalm.com. I've read up on this school, and it seems to be quite good,..the teachers seem to be quite amazing as well. If anyone could give me their opinoins about this school, i would greatly appreciate it. I just do not want to make the same mistake, that i have in the past.
> Thank you all very much for you time and cooperation,
> -OneWhoKnowsNothing


 


Hello,

I just came across this thread & thought that I might help.  I have studied different MAs, in your region, for many years.  I would say that Carl DeChuria's(sp?) academy, immortalpalm.com, is a poor choice.  IMO they have big egos, a cult-like attitude and little martial skill.  From the couple of classes I took with them I found that they spent more time knocking every other Wing Chun lineage/school/teacher and TELLING me why they were the best than actually teaching.  Not a group you want to grow up in.  

If you want excellent Wing Chun go look up master Buddy Wu in Euclid, Ohio.  He has what you want.  Good skill, good person, good students, good attitude and lineage.

Because its nearby you and its quality I would also recommend the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu class taught in Eastlake by Jeff Starr (a Relson Gracie affiliate).  It is held at a Black Rose Kenpo school on Vine Street.  Additionally, Jeff has studied Wing Chun with Francis Fong and JKD with Dan Inosanto for well over a decade.

Good luck


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 11, 2006)

I do not train Wing Chun, but I know a few that do. Wing Chun as previously mentioned in this discussion is no for sparring, it is for fighting. 

Look into its history.

There is also a very good Wing Chun School in Upstate NY, Chichon's Wing Chun; he is a disciple of the Yip Family.


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## yipman_sifu (Jan 20, 2006)

Hey friends listen please. We in Wing Chun never lacked the excelllent Sifus, but we lacked the knowledge about what we choose. I mean that we always know that nothing can replace Wing Chun concepts of simplicity in fighting. Finding good teachers is not easy, but if someone possess the desire of learning, he will definitely find his goal.

e.g: If you live in New York city, you can find the best sifus, such as Sifu Emin Boztepe. In California Master Gary Lam, who is considered to be one of the disciples of Grandmaster Wong Sheung Leung.


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## gblnking (Jan 31, 2006)

Over the years I have trained in a variety of martail arts, I have found most of them to be disappointing to say the least. From the Mystical "touch of death" styles to the "healing internal arts" they all have fallen miserably short of what thier "masters" have spouted. 
A couple of years ago I joined a Wing Chun school. The teacher was very knowledgable. We trained three times a week for two hours each time. Going over and over the form, stance, and body positioning. A year later we were still going over the form, stance, and body positioning. Throw in some of the two person drills and all in all I became painfully bored with the system. I should at this point state that this school was part of the immortalpalm group that a previous poster commented on. This particular school being in Minnesota though. I did on one occasion get to train with Carl D. from Ohio and found him to be completely arrogant and basically a thug. Which is such a suprise that my teacher having trained with him for years was the complete opposite. 
The other thing that I'd like to coment on is to the poster that stated something to the effect that sparring and fighting are two entirely differant things. I would say true but if you train and train and train with no sparring you will never learn how to fight. You can't teach someone to fight without putting your hands on them. I once was in a TKD school where upon obtaining the green belt I was moved into a sparring class, my first competitor was a black belt who I promptly punched in the nose because his hands where not blocking his face. I was lectured on the rules (not being given them prior to this) of no contact to the head. But being that he was a black belt shouldn't he have been able to block that anyways? 
My point is that you can train on proper form, stance , and body position till your blue in the face but if you don't mix it up a bit your are being short changed. Which is my disappointment with Wing Chun.
I'm in a Muay Thai school now and I am enjoying it but I do still wish that I can find a good Wing Chun school in the Minnesota area that teaches both form and functionality of the system. Just my two cents.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2006)

gblnking said:
			
		

> A couple of years ago I joined a Wing Chun school. The teacher was very knowledgable. We trained three times a week for two hours each time. Going over and over the form, stance, and body positioning. A year later we were still going over the form, stance, and body positioning. Throw in some of the two person drills and all in all I became painfully bored with the system. I should at this point state that this school was part of the immortalpalm group that a previous poster commented on.


 
I cannot comment on the Immortalpalm group, as I have had no experience with them.

With regards to the endless drilling, this is what training is all about.  Over and over, striving for perfection.  In a good school, this will never come to an end no matter what your level, because you can always be better.

Training application is also important, I agree with you there.  But without drilling the basics your application will always be poor.  

If you only gave this a year of your effort, you might have short changed yourself.  Skill in the martial arts takes time, effort, more time, and more effort before it develops.  One year is not a long time.  You might have been on the edge of a breakthru to another level, but you walked away prematurely.

I suggest you rethink your attitude toward training.  What do you really want from the martial arts?  It is not all fun and glory.  It is mostly work and pain, and for some it can even be boring.  Only a McDojo will promise to keep you entertained while you "train".  Most good schools won't make this promise.


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## brothershaw (Jan 31, 2006)

gblnking said:
			
		

> Over the years I have trained in a variety of martail arts, I have found most of them to be disappointing to say the least. From the Mystical "touch of death" styles to the "healing internal arts" they all have fallen miserably short of what thier "masters" have spouted.
> .
> The other thing that I'd like to coment on is to the poster that stated something to the effect that sparring and fighting are two entirely differant things. I would say true but if you train and train and train with no sparring you will never learn how to fight. You can't teach someone to fight without putting your hands on them.


 
-----------The above was slightly edited-------
     Heres the thing
Any style or system theres bad people out there, however in in karate, jujitsu, bjj, judo and some other styles there is generally a degree of consistency within the style. So from one school to the next you can see who and what is good, also at tournaments, and if your school sucks with a moderate effort you can find a good school.
  With in the chinese arts there is NO real consistency within any particular style, so you have a lot of people supposedly practicing the same styles but from school to school they are doing things so differently if your school sucks you could go to a different school that does things different and they could suck too. Plus everybody THINKS they have the correct way.  THere is no general standard within a particular style of kung fu that everyone in that style can look at, whereas in judo or karate there is a general minimun consensus, even though there are still mcdojos.
Bottom line if you are looking for good wing chun, look at other styles as well so that when you visit a wing chun school you can compare and ask yourself could these guys hold there own against the other stuff you saw , and if not, maybe keep looking.


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## yipman_sifu (Jan 31, 2006)

The moment we get bored of something we practise, I think that it is better to stop training martial arts forever, because a real martial artist must never get bored of what he trains in. We must always have the desire to continue whatever happens. 
Regarding Wing Chun, why need to spar with opponents. Its concepts allows you to finish any situation before it starts to your favour.
Suppose these concepts did not helped you, there are other moves used to replace the mistakes you did, and that comes later in the training. It is just patience and patience.


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## bcbernam777 (Feb 1, 2006)

gblnking said:
			
		

> Over the years I have trained in a variety of martail arts, I have found most of them to be disappointing to say the least. From the Mystical "touch of death" styles to the "healing internal arts" they all have fallen miserably short of what thier "masters" have spouted.
> A couple of years ago I joined a Wing Chun school. The teacher was very knowledgable. We trained three times a week for two hours each time. Going over and over the form, stance, and body positioning. A year later we were still going over the form, stance, and body positioning. Throw in some of the two person drills and all in all *I became painfully bored with the system.* quote]
> 
> Hence why you will never learn real Wing Chun


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